I do not agree with the Title, some atheist may not live so long to become communists!So better!"Communism always leads to atheism, and atheism ( generally) leads to communism"I believe that communism leads to atheism, but examples can be brought whit atheists who died socialists!

These films define, pretty good, my work on YTToday I consider myself an militant. anti-atheist

The main reason for which I am trying to rid humanity of this plague it is THE COMMUNISMIt's amazing that atheists deny that communism was an atheistic phenomenon.And the current atheist ideology, go towards communism.

My experience do not comes from Google!, I lived in a communist country, and I studied the phenomenon of communist prison in my country!

And soon I will make a film about Pitesti (3)From where I have unpublished images ( only when I pronounce name Pitesti (4) and "the my love for Thunderf00t, ZOMGitsCriss, and maybe, DprJones go through the roof)

so if someone knows, How do I register images on Net, so I may benefit from copyright, I will submit unpublished images to this conversation.

My love for you atheists:

Emil Sebesan testimony:"There was this horrible incident. We had a student of divinity among us, and they had him deliver the mass on the chibla... you know that is a barrel we used for a toilet. They wouldn't allow us to go to a proper toilet. So they placed him on the chibla and they used a bar of soap to carve a penis instead of the cross. And they made us take turns in kissing that soap penis while the student went through the religious service blessing us and so on... That's the kind of things they would do. Just to mock and humiliate us. And they made us commune on urine and feces. All of us.With a teaspoon. We had done it before, it wasn't anything new, but it was a terrible to know what they wanted it to mean"The Virgin Mary was called a whore by all of them. Turcanu would tell us: "What, are you a believer in that whore, Maria? Who knows how many "Fathers" there may have been... Until she finally found a fool to say that God was the Father.'

Any attempt to cross yourself would mean at least one-hour beating. I think the only way people would cross themselves was with their tongue inside their closed mouth"

(And we as children we knew how to cross as whit the tongue inside ours closed mouth)

Marcel Petrisor testimony:"The black liturgy" - that meant they would dress someone in bed sheets that were painted like the priest's cloth, and have him take confessions with the cross held upside down... they were mock-confessions of those who were forced to falsely confess about adultery, sodomy and so on... and in the end, they had us commune from the toilet, with excrements instead of... symbolizing the holy communion. That was horrible!...

The two peasants under the bed... they beat them and forced them to lie under their beds because they would not confess to there being no God, and would not renounce their faith. And they would whisper to one another: "How can we say that there is no God, as they would have us do, what will happen to us when we eventually get to meet our Maker? Better accept this punishment here.' Well, they could only take that much beating. In the end they, too, had to say what was asked of them.

Here's another physical torture. They had you shit in your tinplate, clean it up with urine, then they would put your meal in there. And then they tied your hands behind and made you kneel down and eat directly with your mouth, like a pig"

Ghe. Gheorghiu testimony:"At one point I could not stand it anymore in that cell. It wasn't so much the beatings, but I was shocked by the other things as well. Especially how they made those people eat their feces. It was that humiliating scene on Easter and on Christmas. Very troubling. All of it, it was just too much. And this man dying, though I did not see that, he was in the other cell. So one day, I took the glass jar from the guy, and broke it so they wouldn't hear me (I don't really remember how I did it) and I cut my wrist and just lay there. Unfortunately, they finished early with this guy - or maybe that was my good fortune, who can tell... and I did not lose enough blood... I had cut myself as best as I could....

Some time passed, and Turcanu came to me and said: "Come out, you punk. What was that scene all about? You thought you'd impress me?" And he grabbed me by the throat and banged me [against the wall]. "You don't get to die when you want. You'll die when we are finished with you, after you tell us all we need to hear.

PS This is my introduction.You can choose the usual arguments. that the communist, were not atheists, for that, for that communism is an political ideology (LOOL) Otherwise I do not know what arguments can someone bring to separate communism from atheism, when, "Atheism is a natural and inseparable part of Marxism, of the theory and practice of scientific socialism" an that "scientific socialism" eading toward Soviet-communism.

Before we Begin, i wish to make clear why i chose the Statement "Communism always leads to Atheism and Atheism to Communism" as the original topic for debate, is that because those very words were used By VyckRo on his youtube channel, in response to some Atheist troll. And i thought it summed up VyckRo's worldview succinctly.

Sorry VyckRo. I was quoting you.

But anyways, Before we even begin this debate. It would be wise to define what we are talking about before we discuss their ideological relationship.

"Communism - In it's usualy acknowledged form, a process of Class Conflict and revolutionary Struggle, resulting in Victory for the proletariat and the establishment of a classless, Socialist society in which private ownership has been abolished and the means of Production and subsistence belong to the Community." - The Oxford Concise Dictionary of Politics. P87.

"In it's original form, Marxism professed to be a scientific explaination of the course of History, providing not just a political ideology but a system of government. Reasoning that the determinant is of all Human action was the economic self-interest of various social groups or classes, and that a "Ruling Class" would so order the economic system as to control and exploit the the other classes, Marx evolved an analysis of the course of History known as the dialectic. In the dialectic, society moved inexorably and inevitably from primitivity through slavery and feudalism to capatalism and, ultimately through a transitory stage of Socialism to true Communism." - Prof Ian Beckett: Communist Military Machine. P6.

That really is it VyckRo. By definition, you can be of any political persuasion and not believe in God. The OED in defining Atheism, does not say anything about political ideologies (And the definition does not say anything about Communism.). and if you disagree, than you've just alienated the entire community of etymologists.

Here is my argument.

Atheism in general does not generaly lead to Communism, but rather instead it's much more politicaly diverse, than VyckRo gives it credit for. You need to only look at the following names,

Got the Point yet? The most influential atheists are not Communist but are much much more liberal than that.

Ayn Rand is an atheist but is also the inventor of Objectivism, which is the extreme opposite of any type of Statism, be it Communist, Nazi or whatever. Call her a communist, and she would probably punch you in the face.

Same with her, Here's An Atheist who defends Christian america. This type of atheist probably doesnt exist in VyckRo's world.

I'l Wager with VyckRo that the overwhelming majority of Atheists who read this are Liberal/libetarian. Not Communist. VyckRo has to explain Why this is So.

Atheist ignorance is a non sequitur, Please stay on topic. We are debating if Atheism generaly leads to Communism, Not the idea that Atheism generally leads to Stupidity.

These films define, pretty good, my work on YTToday I consider myself an militant. anti-atheist

in other words, A fundamentalist with a closed mind. You need to open it.

The main reason for which I am trying to rid humanity of this plague it is THE COMMUNISM

You know what that quote reminds me of? It reminds me of a certain someone who who said that Marxism was a

"pestilential whore, cloaking herself as social virtue and brotherly love, from which I hope humanity will rid this earth with the greatest dispatch, since otherwise the earth might well become rid of humanity."

Every atheist probably knows who im talking about.

My experience do not comes from Google!, I lived in a communist country, and I studied the phenomenon of communist prison in my country!

My experience comes from reading Books and studying materials and sources. I know just as much about the soviet union as you do.

My love for you atheists

Im agnostic, Your ironic love doesnt work on me.

Oh yes! they were atheists and they do not hide this! ( they were proud of ther atheism)

No one is serioulsy denying that the Communists were atheist. And anyways. what does this have to do with Atheism in the West? Given that Communism is declining and Atheism is rising in the West. Two trends that are incompatiable with your argument. By your stadards, you would expect that communists would make up the Overwhelming majority of Atheists in lets say america. The downward slope of those who claim to be Communists negates your ideas. you ideas do not stack up to reality.

Newsflash. They are not me. What constitutes a valid criticism of religion in your eyes? Plus i do not think any of those are Communist.

You can choose the usual arguments. that the communist, were not atheists, for that, for that communism is an political ideology (LOOL)

The communists were atheists and no-one i know of denys that. Suggesting that they do is part of your strawman. And yes Communism is a political ideology. it belongs on the Far-left. Maybe you meant political religion? If that's the case. Are you even aware that even members of Your own Faith disagree with you on that one? You are Orthodox. Yes? Have a look at this.

Orthodox Website wrote:Communism is supposedly an atheistic system which renounces all religion. In actual fact, it is a religion - a fanatical, dark and intolerant religion. Christianity is a religion of heaven; communism, a religion of earth. Christianity preaches love for everyone; communism preaches class hatred and warfare and is based on egoism. Christianity is a religion of idealism, founded on the faith of the victory of God's truth and love. Communism is a religion of dry, rational pragmatism, pursuing the goal of creating an earthly paradise (a paradise of animalistic satiety and spiritual reprobation). It is significant that, while a cross is put on a Christian's grave, the grave of a communist is marked by a red stake. How indicative and symbolic for both. With the one - faith in the victory of life over death and good over evil. With the other - ignorant darkness, gloom and emptiness, without joy, comfort or hope for the future. While the sacred relics of the holy ascetics of Christ's faith blossom with incorruptibility and fragrance, the rotting corpse of the often-embalmed Lenin is the best symbol of communism.

And yes, i am going to condem these websites and the one above i quoted before you do. Now you weren't expecting me to do condem these websites. Did you?

Otherwise I do not know what arguments can someone bring to separate communism from atheism, when, "Atheism is a natural and inseparable part of Marxism, of the theory and practice of scientific socialism" an that "scientific socialism" eading toward Soviet-communism.

The majority of atheists are not even Communist. How many times do i have to repeat this? There's the seperation. Marxist ideology does not represent the overwhelming majority of Atheists. Got it?

One Final point.

VyckRo from another thread wrote: just as Nazism (National Socialist German Workers' Party) and the Communism ( Marxism, Marxism-Leninism, Stalinism, Trotskyism, Maoism, Hoxhaism, Titoism) are all socialist ideology.

You are aware that Hitler believed in God? Maybe the problem for you is Socialism, Not Atheism.

"Politics is weird, and creepy, and now I know lacks even the loosest attachment to anything like reality." - Shep Smith

Before we Begin, i wish to make clear why i chose the Statement "Communism always leads to Atheism and Atheism to Communism" as the original topic for debate, is that because those very words were used By VyckRo on his youtube channel, in response to some Atheist troll. And i thought it summed up VyckRo's worldview succinctly.

Sorry VyckRo. I was quoting you.

I an glad you're an honest man, and you recognize the contest of that discussion.Now that my method was compromised, I will speak more clearly about it.Most militant atheists, are at the same time, very, very angry. persons. Generally I like having fun of them. So I throw a bait.for example: if they com on my channel, with something like "¦ Inquisition or the Crusades, I will throw a bait "the Catholic Church, does not represent all Christianity"and after that I will explain him about the Great Schism and the Protestant Reformation.Or I answer him that Catholics are not "true believers" and follow a complicated explanation of the origin of the word "Orthodox" Or if they come to say that "without Christianity, humanity would already colonized the universe"I throw the bait, the Dark Ages existed only in the dark mind of thunderf00t. If I had a conversation with someone on the academic level the discussion would be held, if we have or not enough documents, for the first part of the Middle Ages, to still use that term. But because the atheist understand the words "dark" in a certain way, I like to challenge him to, think, for a change. Likewise, whit the phrase you mentioned, the discussion was not carried on the academic level, so it is not like is a "quote" a quote from a scientific paper

Above I explained about that phrase, and please do not discuss any of the topics expressed there. Things are as they are, and not related to this topic.

So you are the one who have given evidence of a slight dishonesty, and you have choos a phrase from thousands I expressed on YT, and you set it as title for this debate. Yet I accepted, and I am here.

But anyways, Before we even begin this debate. It would be wise to define what we are talking about before we discuss their ideological relationship.

During communism, we hav a saying:The theory as the theory, but the practice,the practice is killing us!

Therefore there is a difference between what your English dictionary is saying and what we lived here.There is a difference between theory and practice Therefore in this conversation we should talk about practice, about what communism actually was and not what he should be.Because if you want to talk about the communism from your dictionary , then we will soon discover that we do not have what to discuss on! Because no "communist" country, has ever reached that ideal model

Here is my argument.

Atheism in general does not generaly lead to Communism, but rather instead it's much more politicaly diverse, than VyckRo gives it credit for. You need to only look at the following names,

I'd like to discuss each one of them, but to balance,the balance ( lol was that correct in English I mean? "to balance,the balance "?), I will give some examples:

- Central Committee of the Party of Labor of Albania- Central Committee of the Bulgarian Communist Party.- Central Committee of the Communist Party of China- Romanian Communist Party Central CommitteeLast but not least- Central Committee of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union

I balance,the balance

Got the Point yet?

nice arrogance, No! you do not got it YET, but we still have time.

Same with her, Here's An Atheist who defends Christian america. This type of atheist probably doesnt exist in VyckRo's world.

She almost convinced me, "¦ Until she said the word "bush" (I mean George Bush )

I'l Wager with VyckRo that the overwhelming majority of Atheists who read this are Liberal/libetarian. Not Communist. VyckRo has to explain Why this is So.

This is very simple, In the West, communism has been demonized so much, that a communist person, will deny his/hers communist affiliation, and he/she will called him/herself: socialist, democrat socialist, liberal socialist, and not communist

Atheist ignorance is a non sequitur, Please stay on topic. We are debating if Atheism generaly leads to Communism, Not the idea that Atheism generally leads to Stupidity.

OK although it is a good idea for another topic, I got the message!

You know what that quote reminds me of? It reminds me of a certain someone who who said that Marxism was a

"pestilential whore, cloaking herself as social virtue and brotherly love, from which I hope humanity will rid this earth with the greatest dispatch, since otherwise the earth might well become rid of humanity"

Every atheist probably knows who im talking about.

The Genetic fallacy (2)

My experience comes from reading Books and studying materials and sources. I know just as much about the soviet union as you do

1 The theist that you are talking about, Communism as a religion, they speak figuratively, as ~Darwinism is a religion" or ~Global Warming is a religion"2 On the christian communism - -facepalm If someone wants to go back in time to find the roots of that ideology why stop at Christianity? why not go more deeper for the origins of "communism" in the prehistory in Paleolithic or rather Epipaleolithic in the early human hunter-gatherers, (and let's say) farmers?

And yes, i am going to condem these websites and the one above i quoted before you do. Now you weren't expecting me to do condem these websites. Did you?

No! but that's good

The majority of atheists are not even Communist. How many times do i have to repeat this? There's the seperation. Marxist ideology does not represent the overwhelming majority of Atheists. Got it?

Are you even interested in my arguments?

You are aware that Hitler believed in God? Maybe the problem for you is Socialism, Not Atheism

Socialism should be a stage, and the communism should be the destination.Hitler is the black sheep of socialism if you want to exterminate something in socialism that will be certain classes and not certain races. (and not any form of socialism wants to literally exterminate )so! Hitler = black sheep

Likewise, whit the phrase you mentioned, the discussion was not carried on the academic level, so it is not like is a "quote" a quote from a scientific paper

Maybe, but i still think it sums up Your worldview succinctly.

During communism, we hav a saying:The theory as the theory, but the practice,the practice is killing us!

Therefore there is a difference between what your English dictionary is saying and what we lived here.There is a difference between theory and practice Therefore in this conversation we should talk about practice, about what communism actually was and not what he should be.Because if you want to talk about the communism from your dictionary , then we will soon discover that we do not have what to discuss on! Because no "communist" country, has ever reached that ideal model

Do Stay on topic, We are discussing if Atheism generaly leads to Communism, not the consequences of the type of Communism you have experienced. And anyways, you have yet to throw up your definition of Communism and your definition of Atheism. Or do you not wish to alienate the etymologist Community?

Christopher Hitchens - Liberal Socialist (Not a Communist)Bertrand Russel - Wrote something called the practice and theory of bolshevism. An attack on Communism. http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/17350George Orwell - Wrote Animal Farm and Nineteen Eighty-Four. Guess what they were attacks of? That's right VyckRo. They attacked CommunismCharles Templeton - Read a personal Word from a farewell to God. He converted to atheism and wrote that tract against Billy Graham. Try answering all the Questions he asked you to ask yourself as part of the tract.Richard Dawkins - No, he is not a "Radical Communist in the Making" He votes Lib dem. He has openly admitted that.

Oh and BTW. Did you know that the Leader of the Lib dems. Nick Clegg, is an atheist? and He's the deputy PM.

Salman Rushdie - Like it or not VyckRo, He is an atheist. Read his letter to the 6 billionth person, Imagine there's no heaven.

- Central Committee of the Party of Labor of Albania- Central Committee of the Bulgarian Communist Party.- Central Committee of the Communist Party of China- Romanian Communist Party Central CommitteeLast but not least- Central Committee of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union

I balance,the balance

No, those are Communist examples and do not represent the wider Atheist Community. Only in your Alternate Universe is it the case.

Again, i will restate my point, Atheism is more politicaly diverse than what VyckRo gives it credit for. A point VyckRo doesn't seem to get.

She almost convinced me, "¦ Until she said the word "bush" (I mean George Bush )

Doesnt matter if she defends George W Bush VyckRo. She's an atheist and a Neo-con. I do not think you want to accept that Fact because it contridicts your narrative.

This is very simple, In the West, communism has been demonized so much, that a communist person, will deny his/hers communist affiliation, and he/she will called him/herself: socialist, democrat socialist, liberal socialist, and not communist

So you think that the overwhelming majority of modern Atheists in the west outwardly deny Communism and yet inwardly Embrace it? That is just a false insinuation. and you have no evidence to back it up.

in the first link they are talking about how communism is atheistic and Anti-Theist. So not only does your link not support what you are trying to say, it in fact says exactly the opposite of what you claim it does.

The second link is just a guy pointing out that Atheism and Communism aren't precisely the same thing. as the description box says "This video was specifically made for people who don't understand that there is a difference between social philosophy and scientific/religious belief." he was basicly saying that one is a lack of belief in god, the other is a political ideology. He didnt say anything about compatibilty or incompatibility between social philosophies and political ideologies. It also serves as an analysis of the current Atheist Mindset, which is on the whole, Not communist, contrary to what you think VyckRo.

And anyway, i disagree with the some of the points of that second link anyway. You didnt expect that from me now. Did You? And anyway, do you know what qualifications that man has? I dont. So How can i (or you) tell if he's being serious or just being an idiot? please answer that one.

Thunderf00t hi is an Radical Socialist! and the rest given them time.

You didnt use the word Communist. That's quite telling isnt it?

Irrelevant

No, that website is not irrelevant. it demonstrates the idea that Communism is a religion is not just an atheist myth. which is a big part of your strawman because you believe it is an atheist myth.

1 The theist that you are talking about, Communism as a religion, they speak figuratively, as ~Darwinism is a religion" or ~Global Warming is a religion"2 On the christian communism - -facepalm

I disagree with the notion that Communism is a religion, it is a political ideology. Facepalm at them, not me.

And yes, Christian Communism does exist. sadly and There's no denying it. But again, Facepalm at them, not me.

If someone wants to go back in time to find the roots of that ideology why stop at Christianity? why not go more deeper for the origins of "communism" in the prehistory in Paleolithic or rather Epipaleolithic in the early human hunter-gatherers, (and let's say) farmers?

As you said in another thread.

VyckRo in another thread wrote: You can not speak of communism before Marx LoL!Moreover, communism involves nationalization

You can speak of Proto-Communists like Babeuf. (In fact, his supporters invented the word Communism. A fact acknowledged by those etymologists at the OED.) but remember there is a difference between a Proto and a type (Proto is a pre-fix)

No! but that's good

At least we agree on something.

Are you even interested in my arguments?

Yes. but your conclusions when tested in the modern world do not add up to what you suggest they would. That's why your arguments are wrong. Your implication is that The overwhelming majority of atheists in the west would be communist, but that is not the case, and you havent provided any evidence to suggest otherwise. other than broad and bad generalizations, red herrings and strawmen.

Good day.

"Politics is weird, and creepy, and now I know lacks even the loosest attachment to anything like reality." - Shep Smith

Do Stay on topic, We are discussing if Atheism generaly leads to Communism, not the consequences of the type of Communism you have experienced.

but you said

"But anyways, Before we even begin this debate. It would be wise to define what we are talking about"

Therefore we will speak of real communism, not of an ideology that it can not be practically applied nowhere.

George Orwell - Wrote Animal Farm

I know about that, I never said that he was a communist but democratic socialist.

No, those are Communist examples and do not represent the wider Atheist Community. Only in your Alternate Universe is it the case.

quantity or quality?if we analyze statistically, the number of communist atheists, from communist countries will be higher than then all the atheist you can list.

So you think that the overwhelming majority of modern Atheists in the west outwardly deny Communism and yet inwardly Embrace it? That is just a false insinuation. and you have no evidence to back it up.

not really, I will explain my theory below (little later)

Nope, Im a historian.

have you graduated from a history university ? or is more a hobby?

in the first link they are talking about how communism is atheistic and Anti-Theist.

First link they begin by saying that "the communists were not silly atheists" and everything is American propaganda. Only after they imposed this viewpoint, they start to say about, "communism is atheistic and Anti-Theist".This is a tactic used in political discourse, and show dishonesty. Only after the middle of the video they clearly say that atheism was imposed in communist countries

You didnt use the word Communist. That's quite telling isnt it?

Give him time!

As you said in another thread.

VyckRo in another thread wrote: You can not speak of communism before Marx LoL!Moreover, communism involves nationalization

You can speak of Proto-Communists like Babeuf. (In fact, his supporters invented the word Communism. A fact acknowledged by those etymologists at the OED.) but remember there is a difference between a Proto and a type (Proto is a pre-fix)

I'm not saying when tha communist ideology appeared, I only say that if you want to search in history for something similar, for some roots of that ideology, you should not stop at Christianity.I am no expert in this but the term apparently was introduced in English by the John Goodwyn Barmby (1), who translated from French the word "communisme" (common, -ism: common, shared, mutual communal) (2), from a conversation that he had with some followers of Gracchus Babeuf,.in Paris in 1840 (3)See: Revolt of the Comuneroshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castilian_ ... ommunitiesComunero in Spanish is ordinary man or common man, the term has also becom synonymous with "rebel". see alsoRevolt of the Comuneros (Paraguay)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolt_of_ ... _(Paraguay)where the following phrases were used:"the authority of the people is superior to that of the king" "the sovereignty of the community is superior to all written law"

The word itself is far from being invented by someone. designates something common.Tac: In commune consulare Cic: Commune salusHor Commune sensusCic: Quint communes lociOne thing is certain the concept used by Cicero and Tacitus, was not invented in 1840.commune bonum - The common goodcommuni consensu - By common consent (4)The term was introduced (translated) in English, and so we reach to The Communist Manifesto (5), and from this point we can speak of communism as a political ideology. But the concept of "common thing" lat Commune, common even in politics, existed before. There are similar words in other languages for example my on "Communes of Romania" (6)

Yes. but your conclusions when tested in the modern world do not add up to what you suggest they would. That's why your arguments are wrong. Your implication is that The overwhelming majority of atheists in the west would be communist, but that is not the case, and you havent provided any evidence to suggest otherwise. other than broad and bad generalizations, red herrings and strawmen.

Ok at this point I will begin to translate my theory into Eng, until your challenge my theory was not even put on paper, I am starting now.Completely translated into English, will be ready in few hours.Remember that I did not come, whit my theory, but you challenged me.So. Like I said - this weekend-, it is 6 in morning in Romania, SundaySo. little patience!----

It's a bit more difficult than I thought.LOLI will abandon the idea to present everything in a single post.

I'll provide some quotes, and I ask those who read it to imagine that this speech, is uttered by one of the three atheists I mentioned above (I mean youtube-atheist)then check the source.also I want to ask that what is written in red to be considered, the possible future declaration of TF from the behalf of YT Atheist , on the "Muslim problem" and on the "in god we trust - U.S. dollars" discussion.

-and everyone should see what I mean-

Religion is one of the forms of spiritual oppression which everywhere weighs down heavily upon the masses of the people, over burdened by their perpetual work for others, by want and isolation. Impotence of the exploited classes in their struggle against the exploiters just as inevitably gives rise to the belief in a better life after death as impotence of the savage in his battle with nature gives rise to belief in gods, devils, miracles, and the like. Those who toil and live in want all their lives are taught by religion to be submissive and patient while here on earth, and to take comfort in the hope of a heavenly reward. But those who live by the labor of others are taught by religion to practice charity while on earth, thus offering them a very cheap way of justifying their entire existence as exploiters and selling them at a moderate price tickets to well-being in heaven. Religion is opium for the people. Religion is a sort of spiritual booze, in which the slaves of capital drown their human image, their demand for a life more or less worthy of man.

But a slave who has become conscious of his slavery and has risen to struggle for his emancipation has already half ceased to be a slave. The modern class-conscious worker, reared by large-scale factory industry and enlightened by urban life, contemptuously casts aside religious prejudices, leaves heaven to the priests and bourgeois bigots, and tries to win a better life for himself here on earth. The proletariat of today takes the side of socialism, which enlists science in the battle against the fog of religion, and frees the workers from their belief in life after death by welding them together to fight in the present for a better life on earth.

and now attention

Religion must be declared a private affair. In these words socialists usually express their attitude towards religion. But the meaning of these words should be accurately defined to prevent any misunderstanding. We demand that religion be held a private affair so far as the state is concerned. But by no means can we consider religion a private affair so far as our Party is concerned. Religion must be of no concern to the state, and religious societies must have no connection with governmental authority. Everyone must be absolutely free to profess any religion he pleases, or no religion whatever, i.e., to be an atheist, which every socialist is, as a rule. Discrimination among citizens on account of their religious convictions is wholly intolerable. Even the bare mention of a citizen's religion in official documents should unquestionably be eliminated. No subsidies should be granted to the established church nor state allowances made to ecclesiastical and religious societies. These should become absolutely free associations of like minded citizens, associations independent of the state. Only the complete fulfillment of these demands can put an end to the shameful and accursed past when the church lived in feudal dependence on the state,

We demand complete disestablishment of the Church so as to be able to combat the religious fog with purely ideological and solely ideological weapons, by means of our press and by word of mouth. But we founded our association, the Russian Social-Democratic Labour Party, precisely for such a struggle against every religious bamboozling of the workers. And to us the ideological struggle is not a private affair, but the affair of the whole Party, of the whole proletariat.

If that is so, why do we not declare in our Program that we are atheists? Why do we not forbid Christians and other believers in God to join our Party?

The answer to this question will serve to explain the very important difference in the way the question of religion is presented by the bourgeois democrats and the Social-Democrats.

Our Program is based entirely on the scientific, and moreover the materialist, world-outlook. An explanation of our Program, therefore, necessarily includes an explanation of the true historical and economic roots of the religious fog. Our propaganda necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism; the publication of the appropriate scientific literature, which the autocratic feudal government has hitherto strictly forbidden and persecuted, must now form one of the fields of our Party work. We shall now probably have to follow the advice Engels once gave to the German Socialists: to translate and widely disseminate the literature of the eighteenth-century French Enlighteners and atheists.

But under no circumstances ought we to fall into the error of posing the religious question in an abstract, idealistic fashion, as an "intellectual" question unconnected with the class struggle, as is not infrequently done by the radical-democrats from among the bourgeoisie. It would be stupid to think that, in a society based on the endless oppression and coarsening of the worker masses, religious prejudices could be dispelled by purely propaganda methods. It would be bourgeois narrow-mindedness to forget that the yoke of religion that weighs upon mankind is merely a product and reflection of the economic yoke within society. No number of pamphlets and no amount of preaching can enlighten the proletariat, if it is not enlightened by its own struggle against the dark forces of capitalism.

Unity in this really revolutionary struggle of the oppressed class for the creation of a paradise on earth is more important to us than unity of proletarian opinion on paradise in heaven.

That is the reason why we do not and should not set forth our atheism in our Program; that is why we do not and should not prohibit proletarians who still retain vestiges of their old prejudices from associating themselves with our Party. We shall always preach the scientific world-outlook, and it is essential for us to combat the inconsistency of various "Christians". But that does not mean in the least that the religious question ought to be advanced to first place, where it does not belong at all; nor does it mean that we should allow the forces of the really revolutionary economic and political struggle to be split up on account of third-rate opinions or senseless ideas, rapidly losing all political importance, rapidly being swept out as rubbish by the very course of economic development.

Everywhere the reactionary bourgeoisie has concerned itself, and is now beginning to concern itself in Russia, with the fomenting of religious strife -- in order thereby to divert the attention of the masses from the really important and fundamental economic and political problems, now being solved in practice by the all-Russian proletariat uniting in revolutionary struggle. This reactionary policy of splitting up the proletarian forces, which today manifests itself mainly in Black-Hundred pogroms, may tomorrow conceive some more subtle forms. We, at any rate, shall oppose it by calmly, consistently and patiently preaching proletarian solidarity and the scientific world-outlook -- a preaching alien to any stirring up of secondary differences.

The revolutionary proletariat will succeed in making religion a really private affair, so far as the state is concerned. And in this political system, cleansed of medieval mildew, the proletariat will wage a broad and open struggle for the elimination of economic slavery, the true source of the religious humbugging of mankind (1) .

The same religion-phobia in the communist and in the modern atheists, the same illusion that mankind once freed from from the "yoke" of religion will finally be free to build the"paradise on earth"Here we not speak only of som similar ideologies, who advocate the same things, but the same thing.

"Our Program is based entirely on the scientific, and moreover the materialist, world-outlook. An explanation of our Program, therefore, necessarily includes an explanation of the true historical and economic roots of the religious fog. Our propaganda necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism; the publication of the appropriate scientific literature, which the autocratic feudal government has hitherto strictly forbidden and persecuted, must now form one of the fields of our Party work. We shall now probably have to follow the advice Engels once gave to the German Socialists: to translate and widely disseminate the literature of the eighteenth-century French Enlighteners and atheists. "

The same madness, "Science is on our side" "there is a war between science and religion" "a war that we are win it" "And even if we win it, religion should not be left alone" "we do not hate religious people, but the oppression of religion" "religion should be something strictly private" "the church must become a private association" All ideas express by me above, are mostly communist, but they are at the same time Atheistin that they are preach by militants atheists, today.

Obviously communism, it is not just that.

Unity in this really revolutionary struggle of the oppressed class for the creation of a paradise on earth is more important to us than unity of proletarian opinion on paradise in heaven.

And here I will remind you of that quote from Dostolevski

"As soon as he reflected seriously he was convinced of the existence of God andimmortality, and at once he instinctively said to himself: "I wantto live for immortality, and I will accept no compromise." In thesame way, if he had decided that God and immortality did notexist, he would at once have become an atheist and a socialist.For socialism is not merely the labor question, it is before allthings the atheistic question, the question of the form taken byatheism to-day, the question of the tower of Babel built withoutGod, not to mount to heaven from earth but to set up heaven onearth. Alyosha would have found it strange and impossible to goon living as before. It is written: "Give all that thou hast to thepoor and follow Me, if thou wouldst be perfect." (2)

Atheists and communists have the same destination: "to set up heaven onEarth" So therefore they should meet somewhere, and my answer is: socialism. They meet in socialism and from their journey, begins.

This happens, when man, removes God from the picture, they start to build ther on Babel tower .

Now for my first argument, should I also prove, that Atheist are against big companies, as YouTube, Google, or Mcdonalds

Therefore we will speak of real communism, not of an ideology that it can not be practically applied nowhere.

Okays, So You have deliberately decided not to talk about the ideology of Communism. even though the topic for debate "Communism always leads to atheism, and atheism (generally) leads to communism" is about ideology . The topic does not say anything about Its consequences. Yes, i am very strict about keeping to topics within debates. Something you are not.

Your attempt to shift the Goalposts fails.

I know about that, I never said that he was a communist but democratic socialist.

So are you acknowledging a difference between democratic socialism and Communism? If you are, those words will haunt you.

You should know that a person's place on the political spectrum is not decided simply by some support of a 'checklist' of organizations and ideas supported by that person. It is decided by their stances on things like personal freedom, economics, social policy, et cetera and the connections between them. Even then, it is a poor way to attempt to understand one's political ideology, as even people on the same side of the left/right scale can hold ideologies that are almost completely incompatible with each other. Consider two left-wing ideologies, say, communism and social democracy, for example: Communism is anti-capitalist and calls for a complete overthrow of the capitalist system, social democracy on the other hand calls for the capitalist system to be reformed via a mixed economy and progressive policies. Communist economic policies are incompatible with social democracy, as communists want to change the entire system and not just make it more tolerable or equal within the confines of the current system. Politics is much more complicated than just left and right, even if you bring the authoritarian-libertarian scale into the equation. I thought you, as a someone who supposedly understands politics ought to know this? yet your labeling of Dawkins as a communist in the making clearly shows that you do not understand, or do not wish to understand differences between left wing ideologies. Are you aware of just how much the Left is prone to fracture? Communism is only of one ideology of the left. there are many more. at any rate. Dawkins is liberal, and you calling him communist was just sad and pathetic.

quantity or quality?

if we analyze statistically, the number of communist atheists, from communist countries will be higher than then all the atheist you can list.

Atheist Stats in communist countries are very easy to explain, It's forced atheism, which is of course bad and i condem it. But your theory that atheism generaly leads to communism, is actualy meant to be a broad theory which according to you ought to work even in democratic nations. It doesnt and that's why it''s flawed. You need to come up with something better.

Now, tell me how big is communism in each and every one of those countries in 2005 was by % of population? i need good stats before i continue with that point.

Also, do you think that the overwhelming majority of atheists in places like South Korea and Japan support North Korea and China.

China is a capatalist society now, not socialist. its markets have been liberalised over the last 20 years. And north korea has all the elements needed to make a state religion.

have you graduated from a history university ? or is more a hobby?

im a History student. im planning to go to uni next year to study History. It is not a hobby.

First link they begin by saying that "the communists were not silly atheists" and everything is American propaganda. Only after they imposed this viewpoint, they start to say about, "communism is atheistic and Anti-Theist".This is a tactic used in political discourse, and show dishonesty. Only after the middle of the video they clearly say that atheism was imposed in communist countries

No, they were discussing the fact that american propaganda in the 50s has led many to equate atheism with communism. They accept that communists were atheist but not all atheists are communist. You're not very good at context are you?

Seeing as the Atheist experience is one of those phone in talk shows, and seeing that they take callers from around the world. Give them a call next week and call the hosts Communists and liars. Go on VyckRo. I dare you. I double dare you. Such a conversation ought to be fun to watch.

And now onto the main course.

I'll provide some quotes, and I ask those who read it to imagine that this speech, is uttered by one of the three atheists I mentioned above (I mean youtube-atheist)then check the source.

A whopper of a Genetic fallacy.

When i showed that Marxism is a pestilential Whore quote. You complained. yet you're fine with calling atheists on youtube communist just because they may say a few things that may sound a little like Lenin? Double standards for you i suppose.

and yes, your hatred for atheism does remind me of Hitler. but im not drawing conclusions.

"We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out."Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on October 24, 1933

I bet you would love to stamp atheism out. But you're not a nazi.

also I want to ask that what is written in red to be considered, the possible future declaration of TF from the behalf of YT Atheist , on the "Muslim problem"

The "Muslim problem" as you put it does exist. like it or not. there are plenty of muslim fanatics out there. http://www.jihadwatch.org/ and anyway. Most of those who have something to say about the muslim problem are neo-cons and right wingers. Geert wilders is often called Far-right because of his stance on muslims.

But lets have a look at some recent episodes involving these fanatical Muslims. the first figure are those who have been killed. the second figure represents those injured.

2010.06.05 Afghanistan Kandahar 1. 15 Muslim terrorists set off a bicycle bomb, killing a bystander. 2010.06.05 Philippines Basilan 3. 0 Abu Sayyaf members kidnap and murder three villagers. 2010.06.05 Yemen Marib 3. 0 An al-Qaeda ambush leaves three locals dead. 2010.06.04 Iraq Mosul 2. 4 Terrorsts murder two civilians with a roadside bomb. 2010.06.04 Dagestan Makhachkala 1. 1 Muslim radicals shoot a rival imam to death in front of his mosque. 2010.06.04 Iraq Missan 2. 2 Two Iraqis are killed when Muslim radicals rocket an airport. 2010.06.04 Pakistan Miranshah 1. 0 A civilian is captured by the Taliban and shot to death. 2010.06.04 Pakistan Datta Khel 1. 0 An elderly man is beheaded by Religion of Peace zealots. 2010.06.04 Ingushetia Sagapshi 2. 21 A grocery store clerk is gunned down by Islamists who plant a bomb that then kills a rescue worker. 2010.06.04 Ingushetia Malgobek 1. 16 An attack on a shop by Islamic militants leaves one person dead. 2010.06.03 Turkey Iskenderun 1. 0 A Catholic bishop is stabbed to death by a Muslim who says it was Allah's will. 2010.06.03 Pakistan Quetta 2. 0 A man murders his sister and her lover for having 'illicit relations'. 2010.06.03 Thailand Pattani 1. 0 A Buddhist schoolteacher is gunned down by Religion of Peace proponents. 2010.06.03 Iraq Abu Ghraib 8. 0 Eight victims of a Shiite death squad are found in a mass grave. 2010.06.03 Iraq Sinjar 4. 14 Four people are killed when Islamic fundamentalist bombers target and liquor stores. 2010.06.02 Iraq Mosul 1. 0 Islamic militants kidnap a local soldier and slit his throat. 2010.06.02 Iraq Abu Ghraib 1. 3 A Jihad bomb blast leaves one Iraqi dead. 2010.06.02 Afghanistan Nawzad 4. 0 Two young boys are among four civilians taken out by Islamist roadside bomb. 2010.06.02 Afghanistan Marjah 4. 0 Four civilians are killed in their home during a Taliban ambush on a security patrol. 2010.06.01 Pakistan Karachi 1. 0 A Shia is brutally shot to death in a sectarian attack. 2010.06.01 Pakistan Mohmand 3. 0 Three civilians are gunned down by Taliban militants. 2010.06.01 Iraq Mosul 3. 1 Mujahid successfully kill three Iraqis with an incendiary bomb. 2010.06.01 Pakistan Muslimabad 2. 0 A woman and her new husband are murdered by her former in-laws in an honor killing. 2010.05.31 Pakistan Lahore 6. 6 Six people are killed when Islamic militants storm a hospital. 2010.05.31 Jordan Amman 1. 0 A 20-year-old woman is stabbed to death by her older brother in an honor killing. 2010.05.31 Ingushetia Malgobek 1. 2 Islamic militants kill an off-duty policeman at a gas station. 2010.05.31 Pakistan Quetta 2. 0 A prayer leader and his companion are murdered by sectarian rivals. 2010.05.31 Iraq Baghdad 2. 10 Jihadis gun down a man sitting in a cafe and successfully kill a civilian in a separate bomb attack. 2010.05.30 Iraq Mosul 1. 3 One civilian is killed in a shooting attack by Muslim radicals. 2010.05.30 Thailand Pattani 1. 0 A 50-year-old Buddhist is shot to death by four Muslims while sitting in a tea shop. 2010.05.30 Afghanistan Khost 19. 23 A Fedayeen suicide bomber takes out nearly twenty local recruits. 2010.05.30 Afghanistan Badakhshan 7. 1 Taliban fundamentalists murder seven local cops with a roadside bomb. 2010.05.29 Dagestan Kaspiysk 1. 2 Islamic militants send a police officer to Allah with a roadside bomb. 2010.05.29 Pakistan Lahore 3. 1 Three police officers are cut down by Islamic gunmen at a checkpoint. 2010.05.29 Iraq Mosul 2. 0 Terrorists gun down a farmer and his son in their field. 2010.05.28 Pakistan Karachi 1. 0 One person is killed when rival Islamic sects clash. 2010.05.28 Pakistan Lahore 98. 110 Orthodox Sunni terrorists stage a bloody grenade and firearms assault on two mosques belonging to a minority sect. Nearly one hundred worshippers are murdered. 2010.05.28 Pakistan Quetta 4. 0 Lashkar-e-Jhangvi gunmen take down four policemen at point-blank range. 2010.05.28 Pakistan Faisalabad 0. 5 Muslims fire into a Christian community, hitting five innocents. 2010.05.28 Somalia Mogadishu 3. 1 Two children are among three civilians blown to bits by Islamic milita bombers. 2010.05.27 Iraq Mosul 1. 11 Mujahid gun down a civilian and mortar a factory, woulding eleven people. 2010.05.27 Pakistan Bajur 3. 1 A married couple and their son are brutally gunned down in their home by Islamic fundamentalists. 2010.05.26 Russia Starvropol 7. 40 Two young girls are among seven killed when terrorists bomb a concert hall. 2010.05.26 Thailand Yala 2. 52 Islamic militants set off a bomb in front of a car dealership, killing two people. 2010.05.26 Somalia Mogadishu 6. 20 Six people are counted dead following an al-Shabaab militia attack around a city square. 2010.05.26 Iraq Mosul 3. 0 Three policemen are murdered by Mujahideen. 2010.05.26 Pakistan Lahore 1. 0 Terrorists murder a lawyer outside a courthouse with a grenade. 2010.05.25 Iraq Baghdad 15. 3 al-Qaeda radicals gundown fifteen people working at a gold market. 2010.05.25 Philippines Talipao 3. 3 Three members of a family are blown apart, when Abu Sayyaf members throw a grenade into their home. 2010.05.24 Iraq Ramadi 1. 0 Jihadis kill a young man with a bomb planted outside his kitchen. 2010.05.24 Pakistan Quetta 2. 15 Women and children are among the casualties when Sunni bombers target a Shia scholar. 2010.05.24 Iraq Mosul 1. 0 An elderly woman is murdered inside her home by Mujahideen. 2010.05.24 Iraq Mosul 2 .1 Religious extremists assassinate a secular lawmaker and his driver. 2010.05.24 Afghanistan Faryab 1. 2 Taliban terrorists assassinate an Afghan elder and peace advocate. 2010.05.24 Afghanistan Khost 6. 0 Six residents of a small village are shot to death in cold blood by Islamic fundamentalists. 2010.05.24 Afghanistan Farah 5. 8 Five civilians riding a bus are blown to bits by Taliban bombers. 2010.05.23 India Sopore 1. 0 Islamic militants are suspected in the murder of a local official. 2010.05.23 Nigeria Jos 2. 0 Two Christians are hacked to death with machetes by passing Muslims. 2010.05.22 Thailand Narathiwat 2. 0 Two civilians are shot to death by Muslim terrorists. 2010.05.22 Somalia Mogadishu 20. 55 Twenty civilians are crushed and dismembered during an Islamic mortar attack. 2010.05.22 Pakistan FATA 1. 0 A tribesman, abducted the Taliban, is found dead. 2010.05.22 Pakistan Baizai 1. 3 A member of a peace committee is murdered in an Islamist ambush. 2010.05.22 Iraq Mosul 2. 4 Two Iraqis are taken out in a bomb blast. 2010.05.22 Russia Prokladnyi 3. 0 Two women and one man are gunned down in cold blood by suspected Islamic insurgents. 2010.05.22 Thailand Yala 2. 0 Two women, one of whom was pregnance, are murdered in cold blood by Mujahid gunmen. 2010.05.21 Iraq Muqdadiya 4. 1 Mujahideen invade a home and shoot four family members to death. 2010.05.21 Thailand Pattani 1. 0 Holy Warriors shoot a Buddhist nurse in the head as she is riding to work. 2010.05.21 Somalia Mogadishu 3. 5 Three civilians are killed during an al-Shabaab attack. 2010.05.21 Iraq Diyala 35. 69 A Fedayeen drives an explosives-laden minibus into a crowd of shoppers and cafe patrons. 2010.05.21 Pakistan Mir Ali 1. 0 Hardliners abduct and murder a local tribesman. 2010.05.20 Pakistan North Waziristan 2. 0 The Taliban strap explosives to two civilians and detonate them in a public execution. 2010.05.20 Iraq Mosul 3. 8 A Shahid suicide bomber takes out three Iraqis. 2010.05.20 Thailand Yala 1. 0 A Buddhist woman is gunned down in her grocery story by Muslim terrorists. 2010.05.20 Thailand Narathiwat 1. 0 Muslim gunmen murder a 56-year-old villager. 2010.05.19 Algeria Boumerdes 2. 18 An al-Qaeda roadside blast takes out two local soldiers. 2010.05.19 Russia Dagestan 3. 0 Muslim radicals gun down two local cops and kill a third with a bomb in neighboring Chechnya. 2010.05.19 Iraq Mosul 2. 1 Mujahideen gun down two local soldiers at a checkpoint. 2010.05.19 Iraq Mussayab 6. 19 Six people at a restaurant are blown to bits by Islamic bombers. 2010.05.19 Somalia Mogadishu 1. 0 An African peacekeeper is taken out by an Islamist bomb. 2010.05.19 Somalia Mogadishu 2. 0 Two children are killed when Islamic militia fire a mortar into their home. 2010.05.19 Philippines Basilan 2. 2 Abu Sayyaf militants ambush and kill two policemen. 2010.05.19 Thailand Yala 1. 0 A 46-year-old civilian is shot and then set on fire by Religion of Peace separatists. 2010.05.18 Pakistan Dera Ismail Khan 14. 17 A bicycle bomber blasts fourteen souls to Allah, including a small girl. 2010.05.18 India Poonch 2. 3 Two Indian soldiers are murdered in a Jihad ambush. 2010.05.18 Afghanistan Kabul 18. 47 At least eighteen people are massacred by a Fedayeen suicide bomber. 2010.05.18 Iraq Yathrib 2. 1 Islamic terrorists blow up two Iraqi women in their home. 2010.05.18 Afghanistan Kabul 1. 9 A Taliban rocket attack kills a US citizen. 2010.05.17 Pakistan Tank 1. 0 A pro-government tribal elder is murdered by Islamists on his way home. 2010.05.17 Iraq al-Bushaneen 1. 0 A cleric is shot to death in front of his family by Muslim radicals. 2010.05.17 Thailand Yala 1. 0 A Buddhist school administrator is murdered by Muslim assassins on his way to work. 2010.05.17 Thailand Pattani 1. 0 Three Muslims shoot a Buddhist public works official to death. 2010.05.17 Iraq Sadiyah 1. 0 al-Qaeda behead a rival cleric and hang his head from a utility pole. 2010.05.16 Afghanistan Kunar 3. 0 A pro-peace cleric is gunned down along with two family members by Islamic hardliners. 2010.05.16 Afghanistan Kandahar 1. 0 Muslim gunmen on a motorcycle murder a man sitting in his car. 2010.05.16 Afghanistan Heart 2. 2 Two Italian peacekeepers succumb to injuries from a roadside bombing. 2010.05.16 Somalia Mogadishu 16. 31 Sixteen civilians are killed during a vicious mortar attack by Islamic militia. 2010.05.15 Yemen Hibailin 1. 2 Suspected al-Qaeda assassinate a guard. 2010.05.15 Afghanistan Khost 4. 0 The Taliban kidnap and brutally slaughter four Afghan members of a wedding party, including the groom. 2010.05.15 Iraq Mosul 3. 0 A child, shepherd and mosque official are killed in separate Mujahid attacks. 2010.05.14 Afghanistan Ghazni 5. 0 Five private security guards are murdered in a Muslim ambush. 2010.05.14 India Srinagar 1. 5 One officer is killed when Islamists hurl a grenade toward a group of local cops. 2010.05.14 Iraq Mosul 1. 0 A tailor who makes military uniforms is shot to death by Mujahideen. 2010.05.14 Iraq Baghdad 4. 8 Four people are killed when terrorists detonate a bomb at a park. 2010.05.14 Iraq Jbala 0. 20 Twenty Shias are injured when rivals blow up their mosque. 2010.05.14 Thailand Narathiwat 1. 0 Islamists shoot a public health official six times in the chest and head. 2010.05.14 India Hyderabad 1. 0 Tehreek Galba-e-Islam terrorists on a motorcycle gun down a cop. 2010.05.14 Iraq Tal Afar 25. 108 Muslim terrorists stage a huge suicide bombing on a soccer game, leaving at least two dozen spectators dead. 2010.05.13 Dagestan Makhachkala 8. 4 Eight workers on their way to repair a cell phone tower are blown to bits by Islamic bombers. 2010.05.13 Iraq Baghdad 5. 12 Five Iraqis are sent to paradise by Mujahideen bombers. 2010.05.13 Pakistan Karachi 1. 0 A child is shot dead in a suspected sectarian attack. 2010.05.12 Iraq Baghdad 7. 22 Jihadis detonate a bomb outside a cafÃ¯Â¿Â½, murdering seven patrons. 2010.05.12 Pakistan North Waziristan 2. 0 Tehreek-e-Taliban members kidnap and shoot two civilians to death. 2010.05.12 Afghanistan Kandahar 1. 0 Islamic militants claim credit for the targeted assassination of a prison official. 2010.05.12 Afghanistan Uruzgan 3. 0 A Fedayeen suicide bomber takes out three local cops. 2010.05.12 Pakistan Chaman 2. 2 A teenager is among two killed when Muslim extremists blow up a tanker truck. 2010.05.12 Pakistan Peshawar 3. 3 Islamic bombers send three seminary students to Allah. 2010.05.12 Somalia Mogadishu 1. 5 An al-Shabaab bombing leaves one person dead. 2010.05.12 Iraq Baghdad 9. 39 Nine Iraqis are brought down by two terrorist bombings. 2010.05.11 Iraq Baghdad 5 .16 A Christian community may have been the target of a double bombing that leaves five dead. 2010.05.11 Afghanistan Kandahar 1. 0 Islamic hardliners shoot a civilian to death inside his home. 2010.05.10 Pakistan Karachi 1. 0 A Shia doctor and father of two is gunned down in a sectarian attack. 2010.05.10 Pakistan Orakzai 9. 5 Islamic fundamentalists attack a local army post, killing nine defenders. 2010.05.10 Iraq Baghdad 114. 350 Suicide bombings at a textiles factory and a wave of other terror attacks on Iraqis, including at marketplaces and mosques, leave over one-hundred dead. 2010.05.09 Iran Tehran 5. 0 The Islamic Republic executes five political prisoners, calling them 'enemies of Allah.' 2010.05.09 India Ganderbal 1. 0 Hizb-ul-Mujahideen murder the young brother of a former militant in his home in revenge for his leaving. 2010.05.09 Iraq Mosul 1. 0 An elderly man is shot to death in front of his home by terrorists. 2010.05.09 Philippines Cotabato 1. 9 Militant Muslims are suspected of tossing a grenade into a rival mosque, leaving at least one dead. 2010.05.08 Iraq Amirli 3. 5 A mother and her son are among three killed when Islamic terrorists plant a bomb in a home. 2010.05.08 Afghanistan Herat 4. 0 Talibanis behead four Afghans. 2010.05.08 Iraq Mosul 3. 2 A woman is among three people gunned down in separate Mujahideen attacks. 2010.05.07 Pakistan Ghazi Kot 4. 1 Religious extremists machine-gun four local cops taking shelter from the rain inside a shed. 2010.05.07 Somalia Shabelle 4. 10 Four hospital guards are shot dead by Hizbul Islam members while working their post. 2010.05.07 Iraq Rashad 3. 4 Three Iraqis are taken down in a suspected al-Qaeda ambush. 2010.05.07 Iraq Mosul 1. 0 A 16-year-old boy dies from gunshot wounds to the head, suffered during an Ansar al-Islam kidnapping. 2010.05.07 Dagestan Derbent 1. 5 A woman standing on a railway platform is shredded by a Jihad bomb. 2010.05.06 Pakistan Cantt 1. 0 A civilian is murdered by a Shahid suicide bomber. 2010.05.06 Pakistan Bahawalnagar 1. 0 A 15-year-old teenager dies from shrapnel injuries after militants throw a grenade into his home. 2010.05.06 India Rafiabad 2. 0 Two security personnel are killed when Mujahid open fire on them from a house. 2010.05.06 Iraq Baghdad 2. 4 Jihadi bombers take down two locals at a town square. 2010.05.06 Thailand Yala 1. 0 A 52-year-old man is shot to death by Mujahideen while sitting in this truck 2010.05.05 Iraq Mosul 1. 0 A college student is kidnapped and murdered by Ansar al-Islam. 2010.05.05 Iraq Ameriya 4. 0 Four people, including a rival imam are murdered by Sunni gunmen. 2010.05.05 Iraq Mosul 2. 1 Islamic terrorists gun down two Iraqis in cold blood. 2010.05.05 Afghanistan Nimruz 4. 15 A woman is among four Afghans murdered by a Fedayeen assault on a government building. 2010.05.05 Somalia Mogadishu 1. 0 An anti-Islamist journalist is kidnapped and slain by his abductors. 2010.05.04 Iraq Mosul 3. 0 Freedom fighters gun down a pharmacist, woman, and rival imam in separate attacks. 2010.05.04 Afghanistan Kunduz 3. 0 Three civilians are captured and executed by the Taliban. 2010.05.04 Somalia Xarardheere 1. 0 Islamists pull a 57-year-old Christian father of three from his home and execute him for running an underground church. 2010.05.04 Somalia Hawa Abdi 1. 0 A man is assassinated by Islamic gunmen as he leaves a mosque. 2010.05.03 Afghanistan Khost 1. 2 A civilian is blown to bits by a Shahid suicide bomber. 2010.05.03 Iraq Kirkuk 1. 0 An accused sorcerer is shot to death outside his home. 2010.05.03 Iraq Sharqat 2. 4 Jihadi bombers take down two Iraqis. 2010.05.02 Pakistan Swat 1. 3 A young woman is killed when religious extremists throw a grenade into her home. 2010.05.02 Afghanistan Paktia 8. 14 Religion of Peace hardliners massacre a busload of women and children with a roadside bomb. 2010.05.02 Somalia Kismayo 2. 12 Two people are killed when Muslim terrorists toss a grenade into a rival mosque. 2010.05.02 Iraq Mosul 4. 171 Four people are killed, and over one-hundred injured when Islamic bombers target buses carrying young Christian students. 2010.05.01 Russia Nalchik 1. 29 Muslim radicals set off a bomb at a race track, killing an elderly veteran of World War II. 2010.05.01 Pakistan Swat 3. 12 Three innocents are incinerated by a suicide bomber at a shop. 2010.05.01 Iraq Mosul 1. 0 Sectarian Jihadis gun down a teacher leaving a mosque. 2010.05.01 Iraq Baghdad 3. 2 Three Iraqis are killed by a car bomb. 2010.05.01 Somalia Mogadishu 45. 70 Forty-five people die from shrapnel and burn injuries when Islamists bomb a rival mosque. 2010.04.30 India Batamaloo 1. 0 Angry Muslims stone an innocent civilian to death over the cancellation of a religious march. 2010.04.30 Pakistan Karam Kot 1. 0 The body of a brutally slain intelligence officer is found three weeks after being kidnapped. 2010.04.30 Pakistan Karachi 1. 5 Islamists murder a civilian with a bomb attached to a motorcycle. 2010.04.30 France Strasbourg 0. 1 A Jewish man is stabbed in the neck and hit in the face with an iron bar by a Muslim yelling about a Zionist conspiracy. 2010.04.30 Iraq Garma 3. 10 Three patrons are killed when Islamic militants toss a bomb into a marketplace. 2010.04.29 Iraq Baghdad 1. 0 A car bomb at a rival mosque leaves one dead. 2010.04.29 Iraq Baghdad 8 .20 Suspected fundamentalists bomb a liquor store, killing eight civilians. 2010.04.29 Somalia El Bahay 6. 10 Six people are taken out by an al-Shabaab attack on a village. 2010.04.29 Dagestan Kazbekovsky 2. 17 Two local cops are blown to bits by a Fedayeen suicide bomber. 2010.04.28 Pakistan Peshawar 4 .15 A Shahid suicide car bomber plows into a group of Pakistanis, killing at least four. 2010.04.28 Afghanistan Khost 12. 0 Islamic hardliners murder a dozen civilians, mostly women and children, with a roadside bomb. 2010.04.28 Iraq Baghdad 6. 18 Jihadi bombers manage to take down six Iraqis along a city street. 2010.04.28 Pakistan Quetta 1. 0 A Christian man is gunned down by suspected Muslim militants as he is washing a car. 2010.04.28 Thailand Pattani 1. 2 A 41-year-old female health volunteer is shot in the head by Muslim rebels. 2010.04.28 Yemen Damaj 4. 0 Shiite rebels kill four people in two separate attacks. 2010.04.27 Iraq Baghdad 4. 2 A family of four is obliterated by sectarian bombers. 2010.04.27 Iraq Baghdad 2. 12 Two local soldiers are killed when Jihadis fire mortars from a residential neighborhood. 2010.04.27 Somalia Mogadishu 2. 8 Islamists attack a rival mosque, killing two. 2010.04.27 Somalia Afgoi 1. 0 A respected humanitarian worker is shot to death by suspected Hizbul Islam. 2010.04.27 Afghanistan Kandahar 3. 35 A Fedayeen suicide bomber sends three airport workers to Allah. 2010.04.27 Iraq Kirkuk 1. 1 Jihadis take down a student in a drive-by attack. 2010.04.26 India Budgam 1. 1 Islamic militants gun down a local cop. 2010.04.26 Iraq Fallujah 3. 2 Three Iraqis are taken out by Jihadi bombers. 2010.04.26 Iraq Baqubah 2. 7 Two people are murdered in separate Mujahideen bomb blasts. 2010.04.26 Afghanistan Kunduz 3. 4 Three people die from a Taliban rocket attack. 2010.04.25 Thailand Pattani 1. 4 Islamists fire on a garbage truck, killing one worker. 2010.04.25 Afghanistan Zabul 4. 12 A suicide bomber detonates at a bazaar, blowing four innocents straight to Allah. 2010.04.24 Somalia Mogadishu 2. 2 al-Shabaab Islamists kill two government soldiers with a landmine. 2010.04.24 Iraq Mosul 3. 0 Two civilians and one defense volunteer are gunned down by Muslim militants. 2010.04.24 Iraq Baghdad 3. 19 Jihadis bomb a marketplace, taking down three Iraqis. 2010.04.24 Pakistan Akwal 3. 1 Three guards are gunned down when Taliban terrorists attack NATO tankers. 2010.04.24 Nigeria Jos 5. 0 Three Christians stabbed to death and two others hacked to pieces with machetes by a Muslim mob. 2010.04.23 Iraq Baghdad 69. 303 Devoted Sunnis slaughter nearly seventy Shiite Iraqis in at least five deadly bomb blasts at mosques, homes and a shopping district. 2010.04.23 Pakistan Datta Khel 7. 16 Religious extremists ambush a Pakistani military convoy, killing seven. 2010.04.23 Pakistan Miranshah 4. 0 Four captives are butchered by Islamic hardliners, two of whom are beheaded. 2010.04.22 Iraq Souz 1. 3 Terrorists set off a bomb at a home, killing a resident. 2010.04.22 Thailand Narathiwat 1. 0 A young man is gunned down by Muslim radicals at a nightclub. 2010.04.22 Pakistan Charsadda 4. 0 The Taliban spray a car with automatic weapons, slaying the four occupants. 2010.04.21 Iraq Baqubah 3. 14 Jihadis bomb a restaurant near a school, a teacher and student are among three who die from shrapnel. 2010.04.21 Thailand Pattani 2. 52 An Islamic insurgent throws a grenade into a group of policemen. 2010.04.21 Somalia Mogadishu 5. 0 Five construction workers are kidnapped and beheaded by Islamic fundamentalists. 2010.04.21 Iraq Baghdad 2. 0 Two victims of sectarian violence are found dead. 2010.04.21 India Jammu 1. 0 Mujahideen shoot an Indian police officer to death. 2010.04.21 Pakistan Khyber 1. 4 A woman is killed, and her four children injured, by mortar shell fired by suspected militants. 2010.04.21 Thailand Pattani 1. 0 A 56-year-old man is murdered by Muslim gunmen. 2010.04.21 Thailand Narathiwat 1. 0 Islamists shoot a 20-year-old man to death in his home. 2010.04.21 Pakistan Sargodha 1. 1 Two young Christian brothers (ages 12 and 14) are beaten with an iron rod by a Muslim yelling religious slurs. One dies. 2010.04.20 Dagestan Makhachkala 3. 0 Islamic militants ambush two policemen with automatic weapons. 2010.04.20 Pakistan Hangu 4. 12 Four locals are blown to bits by Sunni bombers. 2010.04.20 Iraq Hit 3. 0 Three Iraqis are murdered by a roadside bomb. 2010.04.20 Iraq Tarmiyah 5. 0 Three young children are beheaded along with two women in a home by suspected al-Qaeda. 2010.04.19 Pakistan Peshawar 1. 15 A young boy is killed when a Fedayeen suicide bomber attacks a school. 2010.04.19 Afghanistan Kandahar 1. 0 A popular politician is assassinated by hardliners at a mosque. 2010.04.19 Iraq Baqubah 2. 2 Jihadi bombers take down two civilians. 2010.04.19 Pakistan Peshawar 25. 48 About two dozen patrons at a market are sent to Allah by a Holy Warrior in a suicide vest. 2010.04.19 Afghanistan Kandahar 3. 4 Three children are brutally killed when Islamists set off a bomb hidden in a donkey cart. 2010.04.19 Nigeria Riyom 4. 0 Four Christian farmers are murdered in their field by Muslim terrorists. 2010.04.19 Pakistan Landikotal 1. 1 Islamists send a mortar into a school principal's home, killing a woman and injuring her daughter. 2010.04.19 Pakistan Swat 2. 3 Two villagers sitting outside a shop are gunned down by Mujahideen. 2010.04.19 Afghanistan Kabul 2. 6 A suicide bomber kills two soldiers at their base. 2010.04.18 Iraq Bartala 1. 0 A member of the Shabak religious minority is kidnapped and murdered. 2010.04.18 Pakistan Peshawar 7. 26 A child is among seven people blown into pieces by a Shahid car bomber. 2010.04.18 Iraq Mosul 4. 0 Three women are among four civilians shot to death in their home by Mujahideen. 2010.04.18 Iran Urmiye Prison 2. 0 The Islamic republic tortures to Kurdish prisoners to death on the same day. 2010.04.18 Somalia Mogadishu 16. 24 Islamists murder sixteen people with a landmine and mortar attack on an airport. 2010.04.17 Iraq Basra 1. 2 Islamists gun down a woman and injure her husband and son. 2010.04.17 Pakistan Kohat 41. 62 Two suicide bombers, dressed in burqas, blow up forty-one refugees lining up for food at a displaced persons camp. 2010.04.16 Pakistan Quetta 10. 35 A suicidal Sunni detonates in a crowd of Shia protesters outside a hospital, "sending at least ten to Allah." 2010.04.16 Iraq Baaj 2.0 Islamists kidnap two men and shoot them in the back of the head. 2010.04.15 Thailand Pattani 2. 1 Muslim militants shoot three people, including a pork vendor. 2010.04.15 Iraq Samarrah 14. 0 The bodies of fourteen kidnapping victims of a Sunni terror group are found in a mass grave. 2010.04.15 Yemen Shabwa 2. 1 Separate al-Qaeda bomb blasts leave two people dead. 2010.04.15 Pakistan Mingora 2. 0 Teenage Talibanis gun down two people in broad daylight. 2010.04.15 Afghanistan Kandahar 6. 16 A half dozen innocents are sent to Allah by Shahid suicide bomber. 2010.04.15 Nigeria Boto 2. 0 A Christian pastor and his wife are abducted by Muslims and burned to a crisp. 2010.04.15 Iraq Mosul 4. 0 Three women are among four civilians shot to death in their own home by Mujahideen. 2010.04.15 Turkey Istanbul 1. 0 An entire family is involved in the 'honor' suffocation of a 2-day-old out-of-wedlock infant. 2010.04.14 USA Marquette Park, IL 5. 2 After quarrelling with his wife over Islamic dress, a Muslim convert shoots his family members to 'take them back to Allah' and out of the 'world of sinners'. 2010.04.14 Indonesia Jarkata 3. 156 Muslims enraged by a rumor of a revered scholar's tomb desecration attack security forces, hacking at least three to death. 2010.04.14 Thailand Narathiwat 1. 0 Islamic radicals murder a village defense volunteer by slashing the back of his head and letting him bleed to death. 2010.04.14 Iraq Baghdad 2. 6 A Sunni cleric is cut down by Religion of Peace rivals outside his mosque. A separate al-Qaeda attack leaves another Iraqi dead. 2010.04.14 Iraq Mosul 2. 0 A nurse is among two civilians gunned down by Islamic terrorists. 2010.04.13 Pakistan Sargodha 0. 1 A Christian barber is badly beaten and sodomized by an angry mob for cutting a Muslim's beard (per request). 2010.04.13 Philippines Isabela 9. 7 Abu Sayyaf terrorists disguised as policemen attack a Christian town, shooting and blasting nine people to death and destroying a Catholic church. 2010.04.13 Afghanistan Kandahar 1. 0 An 18-year-old woman is brutally shot to death by an Islamic fundamentalist. 2010.04.13 Iraq Baghdad 3. 5 Suspected fundamentalists plant a shrapnel bomb at a liquor store shredding three patrons. 2010.04.12 Afghanistan Faryab 4. 2 Four police officers are murdered by Taliban bombers. 2010.04.12 Somalia Mogadishu 6. 10 Six Somalis are destroyed by coordinated al-Shabaab bombings. 2010.04.12 Iraq Baghdad 5. 12 A Fedayeen detonates along a city street, killing five innocents. 2010.04.12 Iraq Mosul 3. 15 Three Iraqis are taken out by a Shahid suicide car bomber. 2010.04.12 Somalia Mogadishu 1. 0 A university student is killed when Islamic militia mortar an airport. 2010.04.12 Afghanistan Kabul 3. 4 Three women die from trauma suffered during a Sunni mortar attack. 2010.04.11 Iraq Udhaim 3. 1 Three young brothers are dismembered by a terrorist bomb. 2010.04.11 Pakistan Mardan 1. 2 A police officer is killed by an Islamist ambush. 2010.04.10 Afghanistan Kandahar 2. 3 A bomb and rocket attack on a home leave two Afghans dead and a mother and two daughters severely injured. 2010.04.10 Iraq Mosul 2. 0 A 10-year-old child is among two people blown apart by Mujahid bombers. 2010.04.10 Russia Nalchik 1. 0 Muslim terrorists are suspected in the car bombing death of a police officer. 2010.04.10 Iraq Fallujah 1. 4 A woman is the only fatality when an Islamic bomb breaks up a family gathering. 2010.04.10 Iraq Qayara 3. 0 Three Iraqis are taken down by Jihadi bombers. 2010.04.10 Afghanistan Herat 3. 8 Three civilians are blown to bits by a Taliban bomb. 2010.04.09 Iraq Mosul 2. 0 Two Iraqis are murdered by Islamic gunmen along a city street. 2010.04.09 Ingushetia Ekazhevo 1. 0 A female suicide bomber walks up to a group of local cops and detonates, killing at least one of them. 2010.04.08 Nigeria Dakyo 2. 0 A teenager is among two Christians stabbed to death by Muslim attackers. 2010.04.08 Iraq Khalis 2. 0 Two civilians are shot dead at a marketplace by Mujahideen. 2010.04.08 Iraq Shabak 1. 1 Islamic militants invade the home of a Shabak religious minority member and shoot him to death. 2010.04.07 Afghanistan Jalalabad 1. 15 A Shahid suicide bomber murders a civilian. 2010.04.07 Algeria Boumerdes 1. 2 Fundamentalists kill a civilian along a busy street. 2010.04.07 India Kupwara 1. 1 Lashkar-e-Toiba terrorists shoot an Indian soldier to death. 2010.04.07 Pakistan Hangu 2. 0 Two brothers are gunned down in their home by a religious extremist. 2010.04.07 Iraq Mosul 2. 4 Two civilians are murdered by Jihadi bombers.

And you wonder why Tf00t has a problem with Islamic extremists VyckRo?

So even though you havent provided any evidence that youtube atheists are communist. lets have a look at those quotes anyways.

We demand that religion be held a private affair so far as the state is concerned. But by no means can we consider religion a private affair so far as our Party is concerned. Religion must be of no concern to the state, and religious societies must have no connection with governmental authority.

the overwhelming majority of Atheists get their ideas of church and state seperation from the founding fathers of america. Not lenin. ever heard of the idea that you can approach similar conclusions from different ideological starting points? Clearly not.

Everyone must be absolutely free to profess any religion he pleases, or no religion whatever, i.e., to be an atheist

"¢Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance. - Article 18 of the Universial declaration of human rights. http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.shtml

now which is more influential to atheists? The UN or Lenin? Do you think that lenin influenced the declaration?

Our Program is based entirely on the scientific, and moreover the materialist, world-outlook.

Do you think every materialist is like lenin? I dont. you need to serioulsy Remember VyckRo, There is a differene between like and influence

For example, Nazi Germany introduced very stringent anti-tobacco laws. Does that mean that Anti-tobacco groups today bear resemblance to the Nazis? No. The analogy is the same with materialism, Just because lenin was a materialist. does not mean that the likes of TF Is like lenin. Got it?

Our propaganda necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism;

"Propaganda" - TF is not a propagandist for anyone. Any historical mistakes he makes are un-intentional. He is not a historian. You need to remember that.

which the autocratic feudal government has hitherto strictly forbidden and persecuted,

two wrongs do not make a right.

We shall now probably have to follow the advice Engels once gave to the German Socialists: to translate and widely disseminate the literature of the eighteenth-century French Enlighteners and atheists.

Guilt by association. Nothing wrong with the idea, only the fact that Engels and Lenin were evil men.

The same religion-phobia in the communist and in the modern atheists, the same illusion that mankind once freed from from the "yoke" of religion will finally be free to build the"paradise on earth"

phobia

"¢ combining form extreme or irrational fear or dislike of a specified thing: arachnophobia.

Criticising religion (which is what most atheists do) does not equate to having a phobia. I asked you earlier what would constitute a valid criticism of religion in your eyes? you didnt answer, and that's very telling. So i will ask again.

Also, atheism is not a political system. (only in your world it is) so it's adhrents have no de-facto mandate to build a "paradise on earth". atheism by definition has no goal. You still haven't defined atheism yet. Im waiting for a definition from you, and my patitence is wearing thin.

it is political systems that try to build the "Paradise on earth"

Here we not speak only of som similar ideologies, who advocate the same things, but the same thing.

So similar quotes = similar ideologies do they? No, TF does not advocate a one party state. He does not advocate genocide. or any form of mass murder. He doesnt advocate communism. Sorry to report the facts.

The same madness, "Science is on our side" "there is a war between science and religion"

do you know why so many atheists think there's a war between science and religion. It's because so many Creationists vehemently oppose the fact of evolution. In the very religious totalitarian state of saudi-arabia. it cannot be taught because of religious reasons.

Also, Evolution has no literal biblical justification. the earth was made in 6 days according to genesis. you need to interpret genesis more metaphoricaly for a theist to start believing in evolution

"we do not hate religious people, but the oppression of religion"

I suppose you liked it when thomas hobbes was falsely accused of being an atheist. in 1666? And i supposed you like it when Ãƒâ€°tienne Dolet was strangled to death because in 1542 he was falsely accused of being an atheist? and what about the death of Kazimierz Ã…ÂyszczyÃ…â€žski? Do you condem these deaths or glorify them? i condem them. I hope you do too. religion has a tendency to persecute even its own kind. What about the taliban? what about the middle east as a whole?

Lets not forget ...

It was theists who smashed planes into the twin towers.It was theists who blamed it on the gays and liberals.It was theists who beheaded infidels.It was theists who picketed funerals of soldiers.It was theists who picketed funerals of that lesbian couple murdered by firebomb.It was theists who caused the Jim Jones mass suicide.It was theists who caused the Heaven's Gate mass suicide (not the name)It was theists who resort to car bombs.It was theists who bomb abortion clinics.It was theists who want to prevent condoms.It was theists who want to stop the HPV vaccine.It was theists who want to stop stem cell research.It was theists who molested the altarboys.It was theists who stood by and did nothing while the Holocaust happened.It was theists who perpetrated the Holocaust.It was theists who perpetrated the Salem Witch Trials.It was theists who perpetrated the Spanish Inquisition.It was theists who perpetrated the Auto da Fe.It was theists who perpetrated the 'Troubles' in Ireland.It was theists who escalated the bloodshed in Serbia/Bosnia-Herzegovina.It was theists who escalated the bloodshed in Kashmir.It was theists who continue the bloodshed in Israel/Palestine.It was theists who ban and burn books.It was theists who blow up the temples and mosques of rival sects.It was theists who ordered Socrates poisoned.It was theists who jailed Galileo.It was theists who killed Giordano Bruno.It was theists who ordered that Salman Rushdie be murdered.It was theists who killed Theo de Raadt.It was theists who made excuses for Slavery in the Confederacy.It was theists who keep moving those paedophile priests to new parishes.It was theists who moved all those Nazi war criminals to Colonia Dignidad.It was theists who made Peter Popoff and Benny Hinn rich.It was theists who got Reagan and both Bushes into office.It was theists who starting the false flag campaigns on YouTube.It was theists who starting the votebotting on YouTube.It was theists who starting the DMCA abuse on YouTube.It was theists who pray when they should be doing something constructive.

doesnt matter if different religions are involved. The fact is, Theists (those who believe in god) have been commiting attrocities and bad acts too (even on their own kind like Galileo). So atheism isnt the root of all evil. contrary to what you think, and i hope you condem each and every one of those.

in that they are preach by militants atheists, today

So are you fine with non-millitant atheists who do not preach the above or is that just another bad generalization of you?Let me show you how the modern atheist thinks about millitant atheists.

A.C Grayling. He's more liberal than VyckRo would like to think. wrote:It is time to put to rest the mistakes and assumptions that lie behind a phrase used by some religious people when talking of those who are plain-spoken about their disbelief in any religious claims: the phrase "fundamentalist atheist". What would a non-fundamentalist atheist be? Would he be someone who believed only somewhat that there are no supernatural entities in the universe - perhaps that there is only part of a god (a divine foot, say, or buttock)? Or that gods exist only some of the time - say, Wednesdays and Saturdays? (That would not be so strange: for many unthinking quasi-theists, a god exists only on Sundays.) Or might it be that a non-fundamentalist atheist is one who does not mind that other people hold profoundly false and primitive beliefs about the universe, on the basis of which they have spent centuries mass-murdering other people who do not hold exactly the same false and primitive beliefs as themselves - and still do?

Christians, among other things, mean by "fundamentalist atheists" those who would deny people the comforts of faith (the old and lonely especially) and the companionship of a benign invisible protector in the dark night of the soul - and who (allegedly) fail to see the staggering beauty in art prompted by the inspirations of belief. Yet, in its bleeding-heart modern form, Christianity is a recent and highly modified version of what, for most of its history, has been an often violent and always oppressive ideology - think Crusades, torture, burnings at the stake, the enslavement of women to constantly repeated childbirth and undivorceable husbands, the warping of human sexuality, the use of fear (of hell's torments) as an instrument of control, and the horrific results of calumny against Judaism. Nowadays, by contrast, Christianity specialises in soft-focus mood music; its threats of hell, its demand for poverty and chastity, its doctrine that only the few will be saved and the many damned, have been shed, replaced by strummed guitars and saccharine smiles. It has reinvented itself so often, and with such breathtaking hypocrisy, in the interests of retaining its hold on the gullible, that a medieval monk who woke today, like Woody Allen's Sleeper, would not be able to recognise the faith that bears the same name as his own.

For example: vast Nigerian congregations are told that believing will ensure a high income - indeed they are told by Reverend X that they will be luckier and richer if they join his congregation than if they join that of Reverend Y. What happened to the eye of the needle? Oh well, granted: that tiny loophole was closed long ago. What then of "my kingdom is not of this world"? What of the blessedness of poverty and humility? The Church of England officially abolished Hell by an Act of Synod in the 1920s and St Paul's strictures on the place of women in church (which was that they are to sit at the back in silence, with heads covered) are now so far ignored that there are now women vicars, and there will soon be women bishops.

One does not have to venture as far as Nigeria to see the hypocrisies of reinvention at work. Rome will do, where the latest eternal verity to be abandoned is the doctrine of limbo - the place where the souls of unbaptised babies go. Meanwhile, some cardinals are floating the idea that condoms are acceptable, within marital relationships only of course, in countries with high incidences of HIV infection. This latter, which to anyone but an observant Catholic is not merely a plain piece of common sense but a humanitarian imperative, is an amazing development in its context. Sensible Catholics have for generations been ignoring the views on contraception held by reactionary old men in the Vatican, but alas, since it is the business of all religious doctrines to keep their votaries in a state of intellectual infancy (how else do they keep absurdities seeming credible?), insufficient numbers of Catholics have been able to be sensible. Look at Ireland until very recent times for an example of the misery Catholicism inflicts when it can.

"Intellectual infancy": the phrase reminds one that religions survive mainly because they brainwash the young. Three-quarters of Church of England schools are primary schools; all the faiths currently jostling for our tax money to run their "faith-based" schools know that if they do not proselytise intellectually defenceless three and four-year-olds, their grip will eventually loosen. Inculcating the various competing - competing, note - falsehoods of the major faiths into small children is a form of child abuse, and a scandal. Let us challenge religion to leave children alone until they are adults, whereupon they can be presented with the essentials of religion for mature consideration. For example: tell an averagely intelligent adult hitherto free of religious brainwashing that somewhere, invisibly, there is a being somewhat like us, with desires, interests, purposes, memories, and emotions of anger, love, vengefulness and jealousy, yet with the negation of such other of our failings as mortality, weakness, corporeality, visibility, limited knowledge and insight; and that this god magically impregnates a mortal woman, who then gives birth to a special being who performs various prodigious feats before departing for heaven. Take your pick of which version of this story to tell: let a King of Heaven impregnate - let's see - Danae or Io or Leda or the Virgin Mary (etc, etc) and let there be resulting heaven-destined progeny (Heracles, Castor and Pollux, Jesus, etc, etc) - or any of the other forms of exactly such tales in Babylonian, Egyptian and other mythologies - then ask which of them he wishes to believe. One can guarantee that such a person would say: none of them.

So, in order not to be a "fundamentalist" atheist, which of the absurdities connoted in the foregoing should an atheist temporise over? Should a "moderate atheist" be one who does not mind how many hundreds of millions of people have been deeply harmed by religion throughout history? Should he or she be one who chuckles indulgently at the antipathy of Sunni for Shia, Christian for Jew, Muslim for Hindu, and all of them for anyone who does not think the universe is controlled by invisible powers? Is an acceptable (to the faithful) atheist one who thinks it is reasonable for people to believe that the gods suspend the laws of nature occasionally in answer to personal prayers, or that to save someone's soul from further sin (especially the sin of heresy) it is in his own interests to be murdered?

As it happens, no atheist should call himself or herself one. The term already sells a pass to theists, because it invites debate on their ground. A more appropriate term is "naturalist", denoting one who takes it that the universe is a natural realm, governed by nature's laws. This properly implies that there is nothing supernatural in the universe - no fairies or goblins, angels, demons, gods or goddesses. Such might as well call themselves "a-fairyists" or "a-goblinists" as "atheists"; it would be every bit as meaningful or meaningless to do so. (Most people, though, forget that belief in fairies was widespread until the beginning of the 20th century; the church fought a long hard battle against this competitor superstition, and won, largely because - you guessed it - of the infant and primary church schools founded in the second half of the nineteenth century.)

By the same token, therefore, people with theistic beliefs should be called supernaturalists, and it can be left to them to attempt to refute the findings of physics, chemistry and the biological sciences in an effort to justify their alternative claim that the universe was created, and is run, by supernatural beings. Supernaturalists are fond of claiming that some irreligious people turn to prayer when in mortal danger, but naturalists can reply that supernaturalists typically repose great faith in science when they find themselves in (say) a hospital or an aeroplane - and with far greater frequency. But of course, as votaries of the view that everything is consistent with their beliefs - even apparent refutations of them - supernaturalists can claim that science itself is a gift of god, and thus justify doing so. But they should then remember Popper: "A theory that explains everything explains nothing."

In conclusion, it is worth pointing out an allied and characteristic bit of jesuitry employed by folk of faith. This is their attempt to describe naturalism (atheism) as itself a "religion". But, by definition, a religion is something centred upon belief in the existence of supernatural agencies or entities in the universe; and not merely in their existence, but in their interest in human beings on this planet; and not merely their interest, but their particularly detailed interest in what humans wear, what they eat, when they eat it, what they read or see, what they treat as clean and unclean, who they have sex with and how and when; and so for a multitude of other things, like making women invisible beneath enveloping clothing, or strapping little boxes to their foreheads, or iterating formulae by rote five times a day, and so endlessly forth; with threats of punishment for getting any of it wrong.

But naturalism (atheism) by definition does not premise such belief. Any view of the world that does not premise the existence of something supernatural is a philosophy, or a theory, or at worst an ideology. If it is either of the two first, at its best it proportions what it accepts to the evidence for accepting it, knows what would refute it, and stands ready to revise itself in the light of new evidence. This is the essence of science. It comes as no surprise that no wars have been fought, pogroms carried out, or burnings conducted at the stake, over rival theories in biology or astrophysics.

is quoting a character who quotes alyosha from the brothers karamazov supposed to impress me? You realise Ivan was a rationalist/nihlist yes? Not a communist.

Of course, anyone can quote mine dostoyevsky. like you just did. (So if you dont like me doing this. Remember who is being mocked) Did you not read this?

I will quote only one most curious remark dropped by this person. 'We are not particularly afraid,' said he, 'of all these socialists, anarchists, infidels, and revolutionists; we keep watch on them and know all their goings on. But there are a few peculiar men among them who believe in God and are Christians, but at the same time are socialists. These are the people we are most afraid of. They are dreadful people! The socialist who is a Christian is more to be dreaded than a socialist who is an atheist.'

Hitler's christian "socialism" was scary stuff indeed.

"Socialism is a question of attitude toward life, of the ethical outlook on life of all who live together in a common ethnic or national space. Socialism is a Weltanschauung!

But in actual fact there is nothing new about this Weltanschauung. Whenever I read the New Testament Gospels and the revelations of various of the prophets and imagine myself back in the era of the Roman and late Hellenistic, as well as the Oriental world, I am astonished at all that has been made of the teachings of these divinely inspired men, especially Jesus Christ, which are so clear and unique, heightened to religiosity. They were the ones who created this new worldview which we now call socialism, they established it, they taught it and they lived it! But the communities that called themselves Christian churches did not understand it! Or if they did, they denied Christ and betrayed him! For they transformed the holy idea of Christian socialism into its opposite! They killed it, just as, at the time, the Jews nailed Jesus to the cross; they buried it, just as the body of Christ was buried. But they allowed Christ to be resurrected, instigating the belief that his teachings too, were reborn!

It is in this that the monstrous crime of these enemies of Christian socialism lies! What the basest hypocrisy they carry before them the cross-- the instrument of that murder which, in their thoughts, they commit over and over-- as a new divine sign of Christian awareness, and allow mankind to kneel to it. They even pretend to be preaching the teachings of Christ. But their lives and deeds are a constant blow against these teachings and their Creator and a defamation of God!

We are the first to exhume these teachings! Through us alone, and not until now, do these teachings celebrate their resurrection! Mary and Magdalene stood at the empty tomb. For they were seeking the dead man! But we intend to raise the treasures of the living Christ!

Herein lies the essential element of our mission: we must bring back to the German Volk the recognition of those teachings! For what did the falsification of the original concept of Christian love, of the community of fate before God and of socialism lead to? By their fruits ye shall know them! The suppression of freedom of opinion, the persecution of the true Christians, the vile mass murders of the Inquisition and the burning of witches, the armed campaigns against the people of free and true Christian faith, the destruction of towns and villages, the hauling away of their cattle and their goods, the destruction of their flourishing economies, and the condemnation of their leaders before tribunals, which, in their unrelenting hypocrisy, can only be described as balaphemous. That is the true face of those sanctimonious churches that have placed themselves between God and man, motivated by selfishness, personal greed for recognition and gain, and the ambition to maintain their high-handed willfulness against Christ's deep understanding of the necessity of a socialist community of men and nations. We must turn all the sentiments of the Volk, all its thinking, acting, even its beliefs, away from the anti-Christian, smug individualism of the past, from the egotism and stupid Phariseeism of personal arrogance, and we must educate the youth in particular in the spirit of those of Christ's words that we must interpret anew: love one another; be considerate of your fellow man; remember that each one of you is not alone a creature of God, but that you are all brothers! This youth will, wit loathing and contempt, abandon those hypocrites who have Christ on their lips but the devil in their hearts, who give alms in order to remain undisturbed as they themselves throw their money around, who invoke the Fatherland as they fill their own purses by the toil of others, who preach peace and incite to war"

Hitler in Memoirs of a Confinant, Otto Wagener p.139-140.

Before you start complaining that Hitler wasnt a true Christian. (After all, True chritians according to VyckRo have never done anything wrong. Right?) He believed in god, He wasnt an atheist and he is one of the 20th centuries worst dictators. The root of evil is not atheism.

At any rate, you know there is a difference between socialism and communism? we are discussing communism. it's in the topc of the debate. + i didnt see the word Communist being used there in that dostoyevsky quote you gave me, and i cannot find the word Communism in any other translation of that quote of dostoyevsky.

Atheists and communists have the same destination: "to set up heaven onEarth"

only in your mind. Communism is not heaven for the overwhelming majority of atheists today. Communism is dead. Get over with it.

The idea that tommorow will be better than today is something that all political ideologies aspire to. That was Heath's election slogan in 1970. He was a tory.

So therefore they should meet somewhere, and my answer is: socialism. They meet in socialism and from their journey, begins.

Crude stereotyping. I suppose this is your conclusion. Yes?

your attempt to move the goalposts is just pathetic. the topic is "Communism always leads to atheism, and atheism (generally) leads to communism" Stay on topic, or admit defeat.

It's going to be more true that you will find more liberal atheists than any other type. Now liberal as defined in the dictionary is as follows.

"¢ adjective 1 willing to respect and accept behaviour or opinions different from one's own. 2 (of a society, law, etc.) favourable to individual rights and freedoms. 3 (in a political context) favouring individual liberty, free trade, and moderate reform. 4 (Liberal) (in the UK) relating to the Liberal Democrat party. 5 (especially of an interpretation of a law) not strictly literal. 6 given, used, or giving in generous amounts. 7 (of education) concerned with broadening general knowledge and experience.

, ORIGIN originally meaning suitable for a free man: from Latin liberalis, from liber 'free man'

If you cannot tell the difference between a liberal and a communist. As seemed to be the case when you called richard dawkins a communist in the making. (VyckRo i think was totaly oblivious to the fact that he votes lib dem.) Than your understanding of the political compass is whacked to say the least. And you claim to understand political science?

All you need to do VyckRo is to start polling atheists yourself. Ask them what their political beliefs are. I bet you will find that the overwhelming majority of atheists will genuinely agree with the principles set out in the definition of liberalism.

And what about right wing atheists? like S.E Cupp and Pat condell (who in fact has more subs than thunderf00t) Their philosophy clearly did not start off in socialism. So your stereotype simply fails.

But even if you managed to prove that atheism generaly leads to something like democratic socialism, Democratic socialism does not equal communist. you said that George orwell was a democratic socialist, not a communist, meaning even you acknowledge a difference between the two.

But you cannot even prove that, because atheism, by definition does not say anything about politics. atheism is not a political ideology. communism is.

Now for my first argument, should I also prove, that Atheist are against big companies, as YouTube, Google, or Mcdonalds

Richard Branson, Sir alan Sugar, Warren Buffet et al. Are atheists. Bill Gates is agnostic from what i gather. Mark Zuckerberg is atheist. so is this one of your silly generalisations? Are you aware that the most atheistic groups in society tend to be higher up the income bracket? Nice try. but you fail.

"Politics is weird, and creepy, and now I know lacks even the loosest attachment to anything like reality." - Shep Smith

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ante-scriptum I'm sorry I have not entered, but I cod not connect to the site!------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So are you acknowledging a difference between democratic socialism and Communism? If you are, those words will haunt you.

There is a transition, a evolution, if you want.

You should know that a person's place on the political spectrum is not decided simply by some support of a 'checklist' of organizations and ideas supported by that person. It is decided by their stances on things like personal freedom, economics, social policy, et cetera and the connections between them. Even then, it is a poor way to attempt to understand one's political ideology, as even people on the same side of the left/right scale can hold ideologies that are almost completely incompatible with each other.

- I agree with that!There are some famous examples of right when a government, that have supported: pensions or unions, and leftist governments that have zero tolerance for unions,and were intorelante towards minority rights.It is a famous example in my country, which is used in the study of political science.Namely: the left government from after 1989, from Romania, heir of the Communist Party. (1) it opposed to discuss issues of gay rights (because they knew the opposition of the Orthodox majority to such a topic). The discussion began around NATO, and UE accession, with the support of some right-wing parties.And all the right party after 1989, supported, the pension increasing ( because of the big segment of the population who are retired) that is ante-crisis.

So it appeared a the theory in political science, applicable especially after the fall of communism, saying that we can not strictly talk of right policies and left policy. Because we have right-wing governments which militates simultaneously: for right and left reforms and leftist governments that do the same.

But there is a component of the equation that you do not want to take into account, and that is "lies".That is a party/person that adopt a left-wing campaign, pro unions, pro pension all the social policy from the book.And once in power, they forget all the promises. Or vice versa.

A little history lesson:In most countries, communist groups were banned or kept under strict observation.Then, the Communists organized in various organizations that championed the rights of workers, women rights, minority rights.And they used different names Socialist, Democrat-socialist, liberal Socialist.Obviously after the communist regime, became in control, nobody even spoke of such things. Communists were always those who provoked strikes, meetings, or militate against the regime. After the Communists came to power all those were no longer an "option" (Just as in the American propaganda film (2) )In my country the communists came under Security(secret) Service attention in August 1920 when Romanian Socialist Party decided to send a delegation to Moscow (Gheorghe Cristescu, Al. Dobrogeanu-Gherea, Fabian D, E Rozvan, C Popovici, I. Whistling) to discuss their affiliation to the Third International (3). Between 1920 and 1947 the Communist movement in Romania consisted of Jews, Hungarians, Ukrainians, and a very small number of Romanians.It was a strange organization which had about 1000 members. In 12 May 1921 Romanian Socialist party congress occurs, and they decide to the transform the party in to the Communist Party of Romania. ( This is a normal stage in the evolution of any communist movements, when the transferring from socialist to communist happens) And they decided to join the Third International. aka the Comintern.by accepting the 21 Conditions imposed by the Moscow (the Communist Party, becomes subordinate to the Comintern, basically a tool for achievement of the Bolshevik revolution) They "recognized" Romania, as imperialist state, and have pledged to fight for "minorities rights" for self-determination until the separation from the Romanian state, and the dissolution of the Romania "imperialist state" (Obviously they have not done too much propaganda on these ideas, and we know them today only as historians)On 5 April 1924 it is issued the decree No1 of the commandment of the Segment 2 of the Romania. army which virtually outlaw the Communist Party,the last straw. happened during the Romanian-Soviet negotiations, for border recognition. When the Communist Party sided the Soviet, proclaiming Romania "aggressor State" in the issue of Bessarabia.From now communists operated, under various names that include terms of liberal or democratic.

In 1946 the communists took part in elections grouped into two groups, Romanian Communist Party and The Bloc of Democratic Parties. (4)In Bulgaria the Party official name was The Social Democratic and Labour Party of Bulgaria and only from 1946 The Bulgarian Communist Party(5), in Albania The Party of Labour of Albania, in Poland the party was born from the fusion of The Social Democracy of the Kingdom of Poland and Lithuania and the Polish Socialist Party-Left in the and the result The Communist Workers Party of Poland

Therefore your method, can not be applied on contemporary atheists,because they have not achieved the "ultimate power", in any place on earth, except, in communist countries, and here we have another question? that is if you say that the real Communism it is the ideology from your Dictionary then should we not look for a second cause for what communism became? ie there atheism ?But as I said, your method, can not be applied on contemporary atheists,because they have not achieved the "ultimate power", so you have to determine their disposal, to establish a dictatorial regime, based on common ownership, forced atheism, estriction of certain civil rights. and the full package, before, shoot any conclusion.

Conclusion, if a party/ person, declare itself democratic or socialist means nothing, nor if he/it support out loud "Free speech", "gay rights", "egalization of prostitution".and the whole pack, love by atheists. What is important if in a a particular situation, where their voice will really matter, will remain to the ideals declared or not (See eg Romanian Communist Party). But even then we can not know for sure.

I will contest the data provided by you.Romania had 2 censuses from 1989 (after the fall of communism) in Romania are made once every ten years (6)1992, Atheist 0,2%2002, Atheist 0,1% but the number is so small that Atheist to be represented statistically, are in the same category with people without religion and agnostics.After the fall of communism atheism fell dramatically, your numbers are statistically impossible. Therefore will put all the list in question.

You need to come up with something better.

Patience

Now, tell me how big is communism in each and every one of those countries in 2005 was by % of population? i need good stats before i continue with that point.

The problem is complicated, cold war is still present in the Westerners minds, they need time

China is a capatalist society now, not socialist. its markets have been liberalised over the last 20 years. And north korea has all the elements needed to make a state religion.

How are China on civil rights?

im a History student. im planning to go to uni next year to study History. It is not a hobby.

I see that, re very fundamentalist, with your opinion! that's bad!Furthermore, history does not go out with desire to "deny", "to expose" a theory, which is submitted attention.

Seeing as the Atheist experience is one of those phone in talk shows, and seeing that they take callers from around the world. Give them a call next week and call the hosts Communists and liars. Go on VyckRo. I dare you. I double dare you. Such a conversation ought to be fun to watch.

I'm poor I do not allow the to call in America, but do not beg money as some Atheist doif they accepted Skype, ok! I would like to humiliate them! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-foo_U9zEwI would like to humiliate them! so much!

A whopper of a Genetic fallacy.

When i showed that Marxism is a pestilential Whore quote. You complained. yet you're fine with calling atheists on youtube communist just because they may say a few things that may sound a little like Lenin? Double standards for you i suppose.

Not a little, it is the same ideology.And the solution are the same, all why we need new, it is that the today atheists to have the power of Lenin.And Hitler do not based his speechon on 80 years of history of atheism.

Adolf Hitler---"We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out."Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on October 24, 1933

Do you mentioned above, the Genetic fallacy?

2010.06.05 Afghanistan Kandahar 1. 15 Muslim terrorists set off a bicycle bomb, killing a bystander. 2010.06.05 Philippines Basilan 3. 0 Abu Sayyaf members kidnap and murder three villagers. 2010.06.05 Yemen Marib 3. 0 An al-Qaeda ambush leaves three locals dead. ----------------So what you are looking in ther lands? Why you do not leave them alone? you have you to impose your "Western model" over their culture?

We demand that religion be held a private affair so far as the state is concerned. But by no means can we consider religion a private affair so far as our Party is concerned. Religion must be of no concern to the state, and religious societies must have no connection with governmental authority.

and

the overwhelming majority of Atheists get their ideas of church and state seperation from the founding fathers of america. Not lenin. ever heard of the idea that you can approach similar conclusions from different ideological starting points? Clearly not.

The founding fathers? you mean that group of Masons? LoL! They wher not atheists. United States of America it is a nation of many ethnic and multi-religious groups. (Although Christianity, plays an essential role)The situation is different, You have an ego-centrist view, humanity does not begin in America, Americas so-called "problems", (arabs, creationists) are not of humanity.You look at humanity from America, and from an English language perspective.If you do not get rid of this "handicap", you will never be historian.

Everyone must be absolutely free to profess any religion he pleases, or no religion whatever, i.e., to be an atheist

"¢Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance. - Article 18 of the Universial declaration of human rights. http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.shtml

Categorically atheists generally oppose this. See, Lenin claimed that only in principle! Just like contemporary atheists

"Propaganda" - TF is not a propagandist for anyone. Any historical mistakes he makes are un-intentional. He is not a historian. You need to remember that.

but can he not use google?Have you seen his latest invention?He divided humanity into two eras "the age of religion" and "the age of Reason" this is madness, he must be stopped!- So "they" begin..., with lies, and whit the finding of a "scapegoat" that caused all the problems of humanity as bourgeoisie, religion, external forces. But we already know what TF chose.

which the autocratic feudal government has hitherto strictly forbidden and persecuted,

two wrongs do not make a right.

-VyckRo quote-The same religion-phobia in the communist and in the modern atheists, the same illusion that mankind once freed from from the "yoke" of religion will finally be free to build the"paradise on earth"

phobia

"¢ combining form extreme or irrational fear or dislike of a specified thing: arachnophobia.

Criticising religion (which is what most atheists do) does not equate to having a phobia. I asked you earlier what would constitute a valid criticism of religion in your eyes? you didnt answer, and that's very telling. So i will ask again.

1demonstrates that religious arguments, are false!2 demonstrates that there is no God---- or shut upDo not start a sole purpose capanie, to hurt, humiliate, offend, all who in the atheist blurry minds, "have the nerve" to deny, the light the path the truth which for Atheist is ther atheism.

You still haven't defined atheism yet. Im waiting for a definition from you, and my patitence is wearing thin.

There are two main groups of atheists regarding not the interpretation of atheism, but atheists relationship with the world.

1 Philosophers atheists (representative ancient atheism)They are mostly intellectuals, thinkers, in no case "mans of action"2 The Plebeian atheist - the biggest mistake in the history of atheism, (the atheism of the illiterate people,that they want to deny God, for fun), wasthat atheism that has descended from its marble pedestal, and became: "¦ vulgar!It is the Atheism of angry teenagers, the atheism of the buffoons that stick out ther tongue at as, and YELL, God does not exist HaaHaaaa No God, Because I say so, Haaa Hoooo.And if do not become a buffoon like me .. then then "¦ 're a retard and your mother, you mother is "¦ (and these are pretty good arguments for an modern angry atheist).

TF does not advocate a one party state. He does not advocate genocide.I will discuss this subject, at the right time.

do you know why so many atheists think there's a war between science and religion. It's because so many Creationists vehemently oppose the fact of evolution.

Again that ego -Centrist vision talk of America? Did I guess, how I guessed it?

vehemently oppose the fact of evolution

The fact? This is fundamentalism, relax a little, man!There is no something like that in science.

Also, Evolution has no literal biblical justification. the earth was made in 6 days according to genesis. you need to interpret genesis more metaphoricaly for a theist to start believing in evolution

LOL"the Days of creation should be understood not literally ("For a thousand years in Thine eyes, O Lord, are but as yesterday that is past, and as a watch in the night.") but as periods!" (7)

Lets not forget ...

It was theists who smashed planes into the twin towers.It was theists who blamed it on the gays and liberals.It was theists who beheaded infidels.

ok!but Lets not forget ... It was Atheist who (most likely) killed - Marie Antoinette (8)It was Atheist those who generated the Reign of Terror from 27 June 1793 to 27 July 1794 France(9)It was Atheist those who adopted and imposed the Cult of Reason: in French by Jacques Hébert, Pierre Gaspard Chaumette and their supporters (10)It was Atheist who turned the Notre Dame of Strasbourg in to a Temple of ReasonIt was Atheist who have tried to replace the Christian calendar whit the"French Republican Calendar" from late 1793 to 1805, and for 18 days in 1871 (11) .It was Atheist who banned religion and celebrated the Goddess of Reason in the Notre Dame de Paris, 10 November (20 Brumaire) 1793, It was Atheist who invented communism.It was Atheist who killed Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna of Russia (12) -Bloody atheists!!- now Royal Martyr St Anastasia Nikolaevna (13)It was an Atheist George Bernard Shaw, who proposed the idea of mass genocide for the first time

It was Atheist those who made so that until 1960 - 1970 all 22 nations of central and eastern Europe which were behind the Iron Curtain were de jure atheistic, and promoting atheism in schools and public institutions in opposed to all religions.

It was Atheist who from year 1967 to the end of the totalitarian regimein Albania , banned the practices of all religions and proclaimed the country officially atheist. ( a totally atheist country for the first time in world history).

It was Atheist that have reduced the Russian Orthodox Church, from about 54,000 parishes before World War I, to about 500 by 1940.

It was Atheist who executed 50,000 clergy in Russia, since 1917 to end of the Khrushchev era

It was Atheist who founded in Russia "The Society of the Godless " that By the beginning of 1941,.would have had about 3.5 million members of 100 nationalities that promoted public harassment against believers,in order to convince them of atheism. (14)

It was Atheist from the Russian "Society of the Godless " that printed anti-religious textbooks (15) or who claimed that all scholars and scientists who believe in God were insincere or delusional.

It was Atheist who in the USSR started the Anti-Religious Campaign from 1921-1928 desiring the elimination of all religion and its replacement with atheism (16)

It was Atheist who tortured. Patriarch Tikhon (17)It was Atheist who killed that Martyr Veniamin, Metropolitan of Petrograd and Gdov (18)----- or Hieromartyr Andronik, Archbishop Of Perm (19)----- or Bishop Germogen of Tobolsk (20)It was Atheist who created the Solovki prison camp the "mother of the GULAG" (21)It was Atheist who created the GULAG (22)t was Atheist who started the "cultural revolution" in China (23), (24)t was Atheist who invaded Tibet in (1950-1951) (25)t was Atheist who forced the 14th Dalai Lama to flight into exile in 1959 (26)It was Atheist who subjected believers to psychological punishment or torture and mind control experimentation in order to force them give up their religious and political convictions in prison as PiteÃ…Å¸ti or Aiud in Romania. (27)It was Atheist who tortured Richard Wurmbrand (28)It was Atheist who tortured Iuliu Hossu (29)It was Atheist who tortured Nicolae Steinhard (30)It was Atheist who tortured Arsenie Boca (31)It was Atheist who tortured PR CLEOPA ILIE (32)It was Atheist who killed great scholar and philosopher from Romaia Mircea Vulcănescu (33)

It was Atheist who in USSR generated the Anti-Religious Campaign from1958-1964 when they bann all religious services outside of church walls and recording the personal identities of all adults request church baptisms, weddings or funerals. And criticized any laxity in the anti-religious struggle . They ban the presence of children at church services They intensified the anti-religious education and anti-religious propaganda. , This was a practice of atheist tutors (appointed by different public institutions including the CP, Komsomol, Znanie and trade unions) visiting known religious believers at their homes try to convince them to become atheists.(34)

It was Atheist who used public money, in a Russia where people died of starvation to publish: posters books, newspapers whit antireligious propaganda.(35)

It was atheists who ban and burn books ( in Russia, Poland, Romania, China)It was atheists who blow up, and demolished churches temples and mosques It was atheists who banned and persecuted Falun Gong practitioners (36)

It was theists who perpetrated the Holocaust.

It was atheists who generated the Holodomor

The fact is, Atheist (those who do not believe in god) have been commiting attrocities and bad acts too. So religion isnt the root of all evil. contrary to what you think, and i hope you condem each and every one of those.

" -

~It was theists who starting the DMCA abuse on YouTube."

And I have decided to deny all your list for the reason, that you do not give sources.

doesnt matter if different religions are involved. The fact is, Theists (those who believe in god) have been commiting attrocities and bad acts too (even on their own kind like Galileo). So atheism isnt the root of all evil. contrary to what you think, and i hope you condem each and every one of those.

in that they are preach by militants atheists, today

It was theists who starting the DMCA abuse on YouTube.

Or ... you pretend you're paranormal?

So are you fine with non-millitant atheists who do not preach the above or is that just another bad generalization of you?

Let me show you how the modern atheist thinks about millitant atheists.

A.C Grayling. He's more liberal than VyckRo would like to think."]It is time to put to rest the mistakes and assumptions that lie behind a phrase

That was a joke? if you think that this man's speech is "rational" then you have a serious problem!That is exactly the kind of people full of hatred, that promotes Lies and hypocrisy I fight against it.

These people promotes, lies, lies and hypocrisy, hoping that people will convert to their religion.(Ideology). I sincerely hope that you were talking figuratively when you presented this "madman" as non-millitant, or liberal.His place is in a hospital for nervous people!

~It is time to put to rest the mistakes and assumptions that lie behind a phrase used by some religious people when talking of those who are plain-spoken about their disbelief in any religious claims: the phrase "fundamentalist atheist".

That is, that it mean "fundamentalist atheist".one person plain-spoken, about their disbelief in any religious claims. You see that Science can not emit any claims, on the existence, non-existence of God. A scientist who claims else is fundamentalist.

perhaps that there is only part of a god (a divine foot, say, or buttock)? Or that gods exist only some of the time - say, Wednesdays and Saturdays?

Yes you wanted to hurt me, and you did. Congratulations.good part is that I will use this energy gainst atheism.

mind that other people hold profoundly false and primitive beliefs about the universe, on the basis of which they have spent centuries mass-murdering other people who do not hold exactly the same false and primitive beliefs as themselves

this man called for genocide of all believers, or is it just my impression!?

Christians, among other things, mean by "fundamentalist atheists" those who would deny people the comforts of faith (the old and lonely especially) and the companionship of a benign invisible protector in the dark night of the soul

Like I said to that blondes atheist I more than a year ago , I link the "fundamentalist atheists" to the story of Diogenes and Alexander the Great.Atheists come and sit in front of our light, they want to steal what they can not give. They are perfectly aware that and it gives satisfaction.I ask them to move, they refuse, I ask again, they refuse. Then I change my place, and I go a little further, the atheist comes after me, he do not wanted me to have some sun today.

Christianity is a recent and highly modified version of what, for most of its history, has been an often violent and always oppressive ideology - think Crusades,

Here he lost me, so a bunch of barbarians, that came to help us, end up, by robing the 'queen city' .. and he sees??? What?

torture, burnings at the stake,

He speaks of Catholics somehow? what connection they have with the Christian church?

Christianity specialises in soft-focus mood music; its threats of hell, its demand for poverty and chastity, its doctrine that only the few will be saved and the many damned, have been shed,

He talks about something?

The Church of England officially abolished Hell by an Act of Synod in the 1920s and St Paul's strictures on the place of women in church (which was that they are to sit at the back in silence, with heads covered) are now so far ignored that there are now women vicars, and there will soon be women bishops.

Are heretics!They are not the Church!

Rome will do, where the latest eternal verity to be abandoned is the doctrine of limbo - the place where the souls of unbaptised babies go.

They are heretics!They are not the Church!

Let us challenge religion to leave children alone until they are adults, whereupon they can be presented with the essentials of religion for mature consideration.

Typical Communist, parents should not have the right to educate their own childrens, Not to mention the right to preserve ther identity.The atheist hypocrisy You should not "indoctrinated" you children, because we have other plans

The telegraphRichard Dawkins launches children's summer camp for atheists Prof Richard Dawkins, the prominent atheist, has helped set up an atheist summer camp where children will be taught rational scepticism and sing http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstop ... eists.html

Take your pick of which version of this story to tell: let a King of Heaven impregnate - let's see - Danae or Io or Leda or the Virgin Mary (etc, etc) and let there be resulting heaven-destined progeny (Heracles, Castor and Pollux, Jesus, etc, etc) - or any of the other forms of exactly such tales in Babylonian, Egyptian and other mythologies - then ask which of them he wishes to believe. One can guarantee that such a person would say: none of them.

What? What? What? What? What? What? What? What? What? What? What?Your man is somehow under the influence of drugs?He recently had a Lobotomy?Or atheism or is too weak, and needs to reinvent history for it?

So, in order not to be a "fundamentalist" atheist, which of the absurdities connoted in the foregoing should an atheist temporise over? Should a "moderate atheist" be one who does not mind how many hundreds of millions of people have been deeply harmed by religion throughout history?

But all atrocities, committed in the name of atheism?

that supernaturalists typically repose great faith in science when they find themselves in (say) a hospital or an aeroplane -

This is madness!I know there are atheists that separat the world into two, religious people and atheists and in ther delusional mind atheists are of the science.But that is a lie!If they really are atheists, why not go to live in Africa,or in jungle? why they use the European culture and civilization?

In conclusion, it is worth pointing out an allied and characteristic bit of jesuitry employed by folk of faith. This is their attempt to describe naturalism (atheism) as itself a "religion". But, by definition, a religion is something centred upon belief in the existence of supernatural agencies or entities in the universe; and not merely in their existence, but in their interest in human beings on this planet; and not merely their interest, but their particularly detailed interest in what humans wear, what they eat, when they eat it, what they read or see, what they treat as clean and unclean, who they have sex with and how and when; and so for a multitude of other things, like making women invisible beneath enveloping clothing, or strapping little boxes to their foreheads, or iterating formulae by rote five times a day, and so endlessly forth; with threats of punishment for getting any of it wrong.

Once he destroyed history, he wants to destroy the science of:the "history of religion" and "religious ideas.

This is the essence of science. It comes as no surprise that no wars have been fought, pogroms carried out, or burnings conducted at the stake, over rival theories in biology or astrophysics.

In Marxist theory. And i have already provided you with a quote from a bookthat says so.But i'll come onto this in more depth later.

- I agree with that!

You Do? Good.

it opposed to discuss issues of gay rights (because they knew the opposition of the Orthodox majority to such a topic)

The orthodox majority are Homophobic? That's an argument against them.

But there is a component of the equation that you do not want to take into account, and that is "lies".That is a party/person that adopt a left-wing campaign, pro unions, pro pension all the social policy from the book.And once in power, they forget all the promises. Or vice versa.

I can easily factor lies into the equation. it would in fact, suport my point if i do.

As an example. The Labour Party, the ideological Democratic Socialist party in the UK, especially under Tony Blair, have adopted many Thatcherite policies, such as the continuing privatizations in Education, the NHS, And Gordon Brown's proposial to privitize Post offices etc . In 2001. It is such that Peter mandelson claimed that "we are all Thatcherites now." In fact, Political parties in the UK are now considered so close that the elections are now seen as a battle/referendum on competences rather than political ideology. Thus highlighting again the absurdity of Checklist Politics.

In each area of policy a new and distinctive approach has been mapped out, one that differs both from the solutions of the old left and those of the Conservative right. This is why new Labour is new. We believe in the strength of our values, but we recognise also that the policies of 1997 cannot be those of 1947 or 1967. More detailed policy has been produced by us than by any opposition in history. Our direction and destination are clear.

The old left would have sought state control of industry. The Conservative right is content to leave all to the market. We reject both approaches. Government and industry must work together to achieve key objectives aimed at enhancing the dynamism of the market, not undermining it.http://www.labour-party.org.uk/manifest ... esto.shtml

About the markets, There was a great deal of Labour neo-liberalism, praising enterprise, free markets and globalisation. In one speech in 2005 to the CBI, He promised the corporate class deregulation, a "new risk based model of regulation" for financial services"no inspection without justification, no form filling without justification, and no information requirements without justification, not just a light touch but a limited touch."http://www.cbi.org.uk/ndbs/press.nsf/03 ... enDocument

Hopefully, you get the point by now.

2010.06.05 Afghanistan Kandahar 1. 15 Muslim terrorists set off a bicycle bomb, killing a bystander. 2010.06.05 Philippines Basilan 3. 0 Abu Sayyaf members kidnap and murder three villagers. 2010.06.05 Yemen Marib 3. 0 An al-Qaeda ambush leaves three locals dead. ----------------So what you are looking in ther lands? Why you do not leave them alone? you have you to impose your "Western model" over their culture?

Are you suggesting we make afghanistan a safe haven for terrorists? Are you aware that most of those involved muslim on muslim violence? Are you aware that Islamic extremists would like to impose their culture on us?

And you have no problem to these threats and terrorism?

Therefore your method, can not be applied on contemporary atheists,because they have not achieved the "ultimate power", in any place on earth, except, in communist countries,

Really? You know the UK has had Atheist Prime ministers before, and the current deputy PM who is lib dem is atheist.

"then in 1896 at the age of thirteen went on, like all the boys in the family, to Haileybury College. Here he confirmed an unobtrusive atheism,he became disenchanted with church attendance and religious observance,and played rugby and cricket with the handicap of his small stature and lack of any real skill, but enjoyed the rifle corps." - R. C. Whiting, 'Attlee, Clement Richard, first Earl Attlee (1883-1967)', Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, Oxford University Press, Sept 2004; online edition, January 2008 (accessed 2 May 2008).

And yes, he was a democratic socialist. But he sided with the US instead with the USSR. and despite introducing a welfare state (which was originaly proposed by William beveredge. A liberal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Beveridge) he was not a communist. And if david Milliband gets his way, we could end up with another one.

Here is another example.

"Clemenceau does not belong to the Socialist party, but is nevertheless a convinced atheist. He opposes zealously the idea of God, and preaches revolt against Him." - Eugne Tavernier, 'The Religious Question In France. I. A French Catholic's View', The Times, November 6, 1909; p. 5; Issue 39110; col F

Thats right VyckRo. Clemenceau was an atheist. So atheists have achieved the top positions in places outside the soviet union. You're simply wrong.

Oh, and actualy. it is your theories that do not work with modern atheists. you have yet to prove that most atheists who read this are communist. That is what you have to do.

and here we have another question? that is if you say that the real Communism it is the ideology from your Dictionary then should we not look for a second cause for what communism became? ie there atheism ?

Marx and Engels atheism. That was easy to explain.

But as I said, your method, can not be applied on contemporary atheists,because they have not achieved the "ultimate power", so you have to determine their disposal, to establish a dictatorial regime, based on common ownership, forced atheism, estriction of certain civil rights. and the full package, before, shoot any conclusion.

That's the practice of communism. Communism does not apply to the overwhelming majority of contemporary atheists. Assuming that david milliband gets his way? When do you think the genocides and taking away of my rights will begin? (Because VyckRo thinks that Always happens when atheists become leaders. Right?) Answer that one. I dont think it will happen. And if it does, i'll be among the first to protest.

Conclusion, if a party/ person, declare itself democratic or socialist means nothing, nor if he/it support out loud "Free speech", "gay rights", "egalization of prostitution".and the whole pack, love by atheists. What is important if in a a particular situation, where their voice will really matter, will remain to the ideals declared or not (See eg Romanian Communist Party). But even then we can not know for sure.

you really have to understand that's there is a declaration and a belief.but again, it's this false insinuation of yours. you believe that the overwhelming majority of atheists accept communism on the inside whilst denying it on the outside. That may be true of genuine communist atheists today. It is not true of genuine liberal atheists. And im speaking of genuine people. Those who not just merely declare something for their own sakes. but actualy believe in liberal values. which i think you will find, the overwhelming majority of atheists do. Just look around on these forums. Post your thoughts on the topics. Get to know some atheists. Why dont you? I dont think you even have any atheist friends, nor do you i think ever wish to want to have any? In that respect, you are like scrooge, and Tiny Tim is your atheist.

Another point

But even then we can not know for sure.

So how do you know your theories apply to modern day western atheists if you do not know for sure?

I will contest the data provided by you.

Alright then. but you still have to tell me how many atheists there are by % of population and how many communists there are by % of population. today in all those countries. Im waiting.

The problem is complicated, cold war is still present in the Westerners minds, they need time.

Only in your mind. Most westerners now do not care about the Cold war, or any form of past politics for that matter. only in the context of some political debate maybe, eg the trident question over here.

I see that, re very fundamentalist, with your opinion! that's bad!Furthermore, history does not go out with desire to "deny", "to expose" a theory, which is submitted attention.

Well, you should have published your ideas in an acedemic journal to be Peer reviewed before you start peddling them to the masses. Im still amazed that you've admitted that This is the first time you've written it down.

I'm poor I do not allow the to call in America, but do not beg money as some Atheist doif they accepted Skype, ok! I would like to humiliate them

The founding fathers? you mean that group of Masons? LoL! They wher not atheists. United States of America it is a nation of many ethnic and multi-religious groups. (Although Christianity, plays an essential role)

I never said that they were atheist. i said that they influence modern day atheists more than lenin.

The situation is different, You have an ego-centrist view, humanity does not begin in America, Americas so-called "problems", (arabs, creationists) are not of humanity.

I never claimed that humanity began in america. Stop putting words in my mouth

Categorically atheists generally oppose this. See, Lenin claimed that only in principle! Just like contemporary atheists

Another point. Most atheists are not historians and most atheists do not know what lenin said. Most atheists i bet here havent even read lenin. or any other marxist revolutionary for that matter. Most atheists advocate no more than a secular world, where if religions leave them alone, than they will leave religion alone. There's a good argument that Religion and secularism are compatiable. "Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's" You know where that comes from. Right? It comes from http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... =NIV;WHNU;

And provide me evidence that the overwhelming majority of atheists today who read this genuinely oppose the UN declaration of human rights.

A language evolves

Im sure that the etymologists know more about the english language than you do. Of course it evolves. But words do still have strict meanings. Something you fail to acknowledge. And you're in no position to criticise me for language.

1demonstrates that religious arguments, are false!2 demonstrates that there is no God

Nothing wrong in atheists who only propose that religious arguments, are false and demonstrates that there is no GodHopefully you agree?

Do not start a sole purpose capanie, to hurt, humiliate, offend, all who in the atheist blurry minds, "have the nerve" to deny, the light the path the truth which for Atheist is ther atheism.

Theists are just as abusive. Remember VenomFangX and how he got DMCA Happy?

2 The Plebeian atheist

Crude stereotyping. Most atheists i know arent angry teenagers.

The fact? This is fundamentalism, relax a little, man!There is no something like that in science.

Evolution has been tested and proven beyond doubt. So It is in short, pretty much a fact, One that has not been challenged or surpassed by something better (unless you have something better.) . Are you a creationist?Here's another one. The earth is round.

LOL"the Days of creation should be understood not literally ("For a thousand years in Thine eyes, O Lord, are but as yesterday that is past, and as a watch in the night.") but as periods!"

Well done for agreeing with me. Like i said. you need to interpret genesis more metaphoricaly for a theist to start believing in evolution.

ok!but Lets not forget ...

Im agnostic.

It was atheists who generated the Holodomor

Atheism generates nothing except a non-belief in god. See definition above. Atheists perpetrated the Holodomor. Atheism does not generate anythng by definition. There is a difference between generation and perpetrating. Freudian slip by you. The Holodomor was generated because of Stalins paranoia.

Stalin to Lazar Kaganovich: September 11, 1932 Telegram. wrote wrote:The main thing is now Ukraine. Matters in Ukraine are now extremely bad. Bad from the standpoint of the Party line. They say that there are two oblasts of Ukraine (Kyiv and Dnipropetrovs'k, it seems) where almost 50 "raikomy" {district Party committees} have come out against the plan of grain procurements, considering them unrealistic. In other "raikomy," they confirm, the matter is no better. What does this look like? This is no party, but a parliament, a caricature of a parliament. Instead of directing the districts, Kosior is always waffling between the directives of the CC VKP and the demands of the district Party committees and waffled to the end. Lenin was right, when he said that a person who lacks the courage at the necessary moment to go against the current cannot be a real Bolshevik leader. Bad from the standpoint of the Soviet {state} line. Chubar is no leader. Bad from the standpoint of the GPU. Redens lacks the energy to direct the struggle with the counterrevolution in such a big and unique republic as Ukraine.

If we do not now correct the situation in Ukraine, we could lose Ukraine.

Consider that Pilsudski is not daydreaming, and his agents in Ukraine are much stronger than Redens or Kosior imagine. Also consider that within the Ukrainian Communist Party (500,000 members, ha, ha) there are not a few (yes, not a few!) rotten elements that are conscious or unconscious Petliura adherents and in the final analysis agents of Pilsudski. If the situation gets any worse, these elements won't hesitate to open a front within (and outside) the Party, against the Party. Worst of all, the Ukrainian leadership doesn't see these dangers. Set yourself the task of turning Ukraine in the shortest possible time into a fortress of the USSR, into the most inalienable republic. Don't worry about money for this purpose.http://www.artukraine.com/famineart/mace27.htm

So in Ukraine, Stalin saw foreign elements (like pilsudski) and counterrevolution (by nationalists) as such that unless action wasnt taken. Ukraine would be lost to the soviets, also, Stalins economic policy of the command economy has to be taken into account. The Holodomor was the response to this alleged threat of loss. Firstly, A big cordon was erected around ukraine, and than the grain was taken away. Appx 7 million died as a result. You need to go see a film called the soviet story VyckRo. It's quite good (Apart from some flaws with the Nazi analysis.)

The fact is, Atheist (those who do not believe in god) have been commiting attrocities and bad acts too. So religion isnt the root of all evil. contrary to what you think, and i hope you condem each and every one of those.

Yep, As an agnostic. i do.

Now will you1 condem theist attrocities2 propose a theory as to what the root of evil is? I'll repeat this point. Maybe for you the problem is socialism .not atheism and that you cannot see a diference between the two.

It was an Atheist George Bernard Shaw, who proposed the idea of mass genocide for the first time

The first time in all of History or the First time of the 20th century?

Martin luther. 1543 book On the jews and their lies

Martin Luther in his 1543 book "On the Jews and their lies wrote:"We are at fault in not slaying them. Rather we allow them to live freely in our midst despite an their murdering, cursing, blaspheming, lying, and defaming; we protect and shield their synagogues, houses, life, and property In this way we make them lazy and secure and encourage them to fleece us boldly of our money and goods, as well as to mock and deride us, with a view to finally overcoming us, killing us all for such a great sin, and robbing us of all our property (as they daily pray and hope). Now tell me whether they do not have every reason to be the enemies of us accursed Goyim, to curse us and to strive for our final, complete, and eternal ruin!"http://www.humanitas-international.org/ ... r-jews.htm

That sounds like approving of a genocide to me. I only need one example to prove you wrong.

"I do not understand the squeamishness about the use of gas. I am strongly in favour of using poisonous gas against uncivilised tribes." -- Writing as president of the Air Council, 1919

sounds genocidal to me. so bernard shaw wasnt the only one to fantasise about gas.

The quote re. eliminating people who cannot justify their existence was part of a polemical and hyperbolic argument with G.K. Chesterson concerning private property, and should not be quite read, as a statement of Shaw's own position. See Collected Works of G.K. Chesterton: Plays and Chesterton on Shaw By G. K. Chesterton p. 553.

Additionally, that quote has nothing whatsoever to do with Shaw's beliefs concerning eugenics. The topic of the debate with Chesterson was private property, not eugenics. Use of the quote in that context doesn't meet minimum standards for valid argumentation or use of sources.

Context matters VyckRo, Read VyckRo Read.

The fact is, Atheist (those who do not believe in god) have been commiting attrocities and bad acts too. So religion isnt the root of all evil. contrary to what you think, and i hope you condem each and every one of those.

You repeat this twice. The fact is, they believe in god and acknowledge Jesus as their saviour, like it or not. Plus, Many Catholic and protestant fundies wont regard you as a true christian either. Your theological arguments is with them, not me.

Typical Communist, parents should not have the right to educate their own childrens, Not to mention the right to preserve ther identity.

He wasnt talking about parents. And you suppose its okay for christians to have camps where they indoctrinate their kids?appeal to tradition is at play here too.

Or atheism or is too weak, and needs to reinvent history for it?

Theres no evidence that a physical character called Jesus Christ. is the real son of god. Only the tradition of christianity says so. even if you proved that there was a real character called jesus. you still have to prove that he is the real son of god, and not some magician or fraudster.

This is madness!I know there are atheists that separat the world into two, religious people and atheists and in ther delusional mind atheists are of the science.But that is a lie!

Like some theists believe there's a war going on? Ray comfort and Kirk Cameron for example over evolution (which they claim is atheistic. No it isn't.) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GN9zpf5cT0MOh, and how many of those professors said are communist VyckRo? Answer me that one.

If they really are atheists, why not go to live in Africa,or in jungle? why they use the European culture and civilization?

define European culture and civilization please.

'DRAWING INSPIRATION from the cultural, religious and humanist inheritance ofEurope, from which have developed the universal values of the inviolable and inalienablerights of the human person, freedom, democracy, equality and the rule of law - preamble to the treaty of lisbon.

there's more than just religion. dont you know?

Oh and btw. My "pen" hasnt even warmed up with you yet. Beware of that

"Politics is weird, and creepy, and now I know lacks even the loosest attachment to anything like reality." - Shep Smith

does not lead anywhere. politicaly speaking. There is a diference between political ideologies such as communism along with it's opposite philosophy, Objectivism. (Both started by atheists and both philosophies were intended to be atheistic.), and atheism simply by definition. For whatever reasons this difference is Something VyckRo does not acknowledge or want to acknowledge. The definition above does not suggest anything about politics, nor does it tell you where you are on the political compass. Contrary to what VyckRo thinks.

2) Atheists tend to be much more politicaly diverse than what VyckRo gives it for, especialy in the west, When i wrote the following.

along with the example of S.E Cupp as evidence for my point. Did you notice how he tended to deliberately ignore the more liberal and more right wing members of that list? I wonder why? His response of..

Richard Dawkins, radical Communist, in the making

..was hilariously funny , and pure ignorance . When i pointed out the fact that he votes Lib dem and has admitted to doing so, No response from VyckRo. Again, I wonder why ?

All he has given me is communist examples. Crude stereotypes, falsehoods, red herrings, Alex Jones type conspiricy logic, (VyckRo doesn't know who's what but he makes the assumptions anyway.) and an idea that he clearly hasn't thought through, nor has he bothered to have it peer reviewed first. (I wonder why? )

3) Atheism is on the rise whilst Communism is dead, and these trends are at odds with VyckRo's narrative.

If Atheism generaly leads to communism, should it not be the case that Communism is On the rise today as fast as atheism is on the rise today? And should it not be further the case, that those two trends are linked to the extent that most modern atheists today in the west are communist?

all these questions have to be answered yes in order for me to take VyckRo's points with more interest. But even then, assuming the answers are yes. he wouldn't be able to make a final linkage between Communism by definition and atheism by definition. because atheism by definition does not say anything about the politics of atheism. So his arguments cannot be proved anyways.

But the answers to the above two questions are no. To demonstrate why the answers are no. i'll take the UK as an example.

Beginning with The yearly British Social Attitudes Survey.

The key points are as follows.

"¢In the UK, those who profess no-religion have risen from 31% to 43% between 1983 and 2008."¢Conversely, in 1983 66% identified as Christian, in 2008 the number was 50%"¢37% of the UK population are sceptical, 35% have definite or doubtful "¢Only 25% of the UK population believe in God (however tentatively) and attend services (even less than once a year)"¢Those self-described as members of the Church of England consist of 23% of the population (40% in 1983). 49% of this group never attend services; only 8% of people who identify with the CofE attend church weekly."¢62% of people in the UK never attend a religious service"¢42% of all those questioned are against any form of faith school"¢52 % agree that "Britain is deeply divided along religious lines""¢Religion in the UK is estimated to have a 'half-life' of one generation

"Three quarters (75 per cent) maintain their religious leaders shout not try to influence voting behaviour while two-thirds (67 per cent) think religious leaders should stay out of government decision making" - p74

"Nearly half (45 per cent) of people in Britain take the view that laws and policy decisions would probably be worse in these circumstances and only a quarter (26 per cent) think that decisions would probably be better."- p74

"There is also disquiet about the extended to which religious faith can lead to intolerance. Three quarters (73 per cent) of Britons maintain that "people with very strong religious beliefs are often too intolerant of others". Naturally, agreement was highest among the unreligious (at 82 per cent), but even 63 per cent of religious people concurred." - p75 (They might have as well ,been describing you VyckRo. Given your intolerance.)

in an Ipsos MORI poll. Jan 2007. 36% of people, equivalent to around 17 million adults, are in fact humanist in their basic outlook.

Another question found that 41% endorsed the strong statement: 'This life is the only life we have and death is the end of our personal existence'. 62% chose 'Human nature by itself gives us an understanding of what is right and wrong', against 27% who said 'People need religious teachings in order to understand what is right and wrong'.

In a Guardian/ICM Poll."¢63% of people say they are not religious (compared to 33% that do)"¢82% of those questioned see religion as a cause of division and tension between people"¢Only 17% of those polled believe the UK is best described as a Christian country.

In another poll by Ipsos MORI. For the Catholic weekly.

"¢ 36% of people in the 18-34 age group in Britain define themselves as atheist or agnostic"¢ In the population as a whole, 24% say they have no religion

According to The Church of England stats. between 2002 and 2008, average Sunday attendance figures have diminished from 1,005,000 to 960,000.

On a more international scale, I've already given you the barometer poll of 2005. (which you have contested.) Have a look at this one. From 2007.

places like China and vietnam have liberalised their economies to quite an extent where they can be no longer considered communist. (that's why big companies like Nike are now in Vietnam.) even if they still call themselves Communist. And lovely sweden tops the list. Sorry VyckRo. Sweden is not a communist country, Never has been, never will be. The Swedish completely contridict your narrative.

In 2004, the BBC commissioned an ICM poll in ten countries examining levels of belief, participants from the United Kingdom tended to display markedly less religious belief then many of their counterparts. In response to the question "A belief in God (higher power) makes for a better human being", 43% participants from the UK disagreed with this statement, substantially more than any other nationality

In the United States the picture of belief is quite different, in the USA only 3% of people questioned in the American Religious Identification Survey stated they did not have a belief in God, and only 8% were doubtful. However, it is important to note that in the USA, as with most of Europe, there is a marked decline in the level of belief; in 1991, 86% of Americans identified as Christian, by 2008, this number had reduced to 72%.

Back to the UK.

In a 2007 survey conducted by YouGov on behalf of the broadcaster and writer John Humphries42% of the participants believed religion had a harmful effect.

In another larger-scale YouGov poll of over 3,500 people, the Church of England came 32nd out of 37 in a list of what people think defines Britishness. Only 17% of respondents thought that the Church of England was "very important" in contributing to a sense of Britishness, while 23% thought it was "not important at all".

Religious belief is declining faster than attendance at services in the UK, according to a study funded by the ESRC which found that parents' beliefs, practices and affiliations have the biggest impact on children.

65% of young people are not religious. Though religious belief amongst the young has declined by 10% in less than 10 years, moral attitudes have not and fewer young people are racially prejudiced.

i could go on, but have you Got the point by now with regards to the decline of religion here?

i would like to have a look at communism in western places like the Modern Day United Kingdom. Trouble is, It's Something that VyckRo has deliberately and systematically failed to bring up. Because he knows, and he probably knows that i know that he knows. Communism does not represent the atheist Community here. especialy modern atheists. That's why he doesn't want to bring it up.

All he's given me is this pathetic and sad excuse.

The problem is complicated, cold war is still present in the Westerners minds, they need time

on the whole. No it isn't. Only in the context of some political debate maybe, eg the trident question. -----"They claim that they perceive a mode of being superior to your existence on this earth. The mystics of spirit call it "another dimension," which consists of denying dimensions. The mystics of muscle call it "the future," which consists of denying the present. To exist is to possess identity. What identity are they able to give to their superior realm? They keep telling you what it is not, but never tell you what it is. All their identifications consist of negating: God is that which no human mind can know, they say,and proceed to demand that you consider it knowledge,God is non-man, heaven is non-earth, soul is non-body, virtue is non-profit, A is non-A, perception is non-sensory, knowledge is non-reason. Their definitions are not acts of defining, but of wiping out." - Ayn Rand: Atlas shrugged. http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer? ... dex#obj_q6

In Marxist theory. And i have already provided you with a quote from a bookthat says so.

It would be so great if it were only a theory, but was applied in almost all the communist countries.All you have to do is to use the method for atheists.

The orthodox majority are Homophobic? That's an argument against them.

Not, is an argument against you! in the west the cultural model dies. but this has happened before several times, an example is Rome.They became addicted of foreign mercenaries. Once Rome was the one that imposed its cultural model to the whole world, but things change as they approach, the fourth century.This happens with any society as it becomes mor and mor liberal, and loses its identity.Your culture, dies! you are not even able to reproduce efficient to replace the population that retires

So what is cool? You became so liberal that you can not even stop your on collapse

Hopefully, you get the point by now.

Of what? That I was right there is a theory in political science "¦. I know that I studied it.

Are you suggesting we make afghanistan a safe haven for terrorists? Are you aware that most of those involved muslim on muslim violence? Are you aware that Islamic extremists would like to impose their culture on us?

They may wantbut you were the first to go in their land, for Oil and gas, for Isdrael!

And you have no problem to these threats and terrorism?

My country does not steal oil from anywhere

Really? You know the UK has had Atheist Prime ministers before, and the current deputy PM who is lib dem is atheist.

Oh, and actualy. it is your theories that do not work with modern atheists. you have yet to prove that most atheists who read this are communist. That is what you have to do.

Maybe they are not communists ... yet, but the atheist way leads to communism!Once you remove God, and once you proclaim man just an "evolved animal" you will get there

you believe that the overwhelming majority of atheists accept communism on the inside whilst denying it on the outside.

go even further, they deny in ther subconscious, the Communist idea, is so repulsive, that they can not accept it, but I'll show them that.

I dont think you even have any atheist friends, nor do you i think ever wish to want to have any? In that respect, you are like scrooge, and Tiny Tim is your atheist.

I live in a country where atheists are represented only by former communists, ouu, and ther is that silly blonde ZombySomething and a group of 3-4 other angry people that follow her. People who think their mission in the world is to humiliate some people that they believe ther are delusional. (to them is like you would laugh at disabled people, and you humiliate them for ther ~handicap")

So how do you know your theories apply to modern day western atheists if you do not know for sure?

It is a theory, a theory that I sustain.

Alright then. but you still have to tell me how many atheists there are by % of population and how many communists there are by % of population. today in all those countries. Im waiting.

Another point. Most atheists are not historians and most atheists do not know what lenin said. Most atheists i bet here havent even read lenin. or any other marxist revolutionary for that matter. Most atheists advocate no more than a secular world, where if religions leave them alone, than they will leave religion alone.

When I read thisWhen I read this ~where if religions leave them alone, than they will leave religion alone""¦ I laughed, to die of laughter is what you want whit me?Atheists want to destroy religion, is the only purpose of the modern atheists to justify ther existence which they consider without an objective purpose.So then the atheist must ~manufacture" a purpose for their existence, and this is the fight against "religion". And the competition to humiliate all the non-atheist.Without it, atheists probably would commit mass suicide.

And provide me evidence that the overwhelming majority of atheists today who read this genuinely oppose the UN declaration of human rights

.

Atheists generally oppose that people to have ther religious opinion (except atheism), they opposed the human communities, or countries to preserve their cultural identity, they oppose that parents to have the right to educate their childrens,

They even oppose the democratic principles to, they are for anyone to express their idea in public, but not religious beliefs, these should be hidden, That if this is not about atheism, obviously! So we have censorship in public institution in the west

Evolution has been tested and proven beyond doubt. So It is in short, pretty much a fact, One that has not been challenged or surpassed by something better (unless you have something better.) . Are you a creationist?Here's another one. The earth is round.

Evolution has NOT been testet we do not have the time machine.

LamarckismDarwinismNow the latest theory is that mechanisms that allow an organism to change evolves. So the evolution itself happen, very quickly. And that is why we do not have so many. "Transitional forms", if this theory will be accepted by science, this will put Darwin next to Lamarck.. ( Darwin believed that evolution happens very slowly, and that we will find many, many "Transitional forms",

Not creationists, but skeptical, because I was not there, when God created heaven and earth, or if I was I do not remember

Darwin himself, doubted that someone, could trust a ~monkey brain"~With me the horrid doubt always arises whethor the convictions of man`s mind, which has been developed from the mind of the lower animls, are of any value or at all trustworthy, monkoy`s mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?"http://www.darwinproject.ac.uk/entry-13230

I'll repeat this point. Maybe for you the problem is socialism .not atheism and that you cannot see a diference between the two.

Socialism leads to communism (sooner or later)

The first time in all of History or the First time of the 20th century?

Martin luther. 1543 book On the jews and their lies

Martin Luther in his 1543 book "On the Jews and their lies wrote:"We are at fault in not slaying them. Rather we allow them to live freely in our midst despite an their murdering, cursing, blaspheming, lying, and defaming; we protect and shield their synagogues, houses, life, and property In this way we make them lazy and secure and encourage them to fleece us boldly of our money and goods, as well as to mock and deride us, with a view to finally overcoming us, killing us all for such a great sin, and robbing us of all our property (as they daily pray and hope). Now tell me whether they do not have every reason to be the enemies of us accursed Goyim, to curse us and to strive for our final, complete, and eternal ruin!"http://www.humanitas-international.org/ ... r-jews.htm

That sounds like approving of a genocide to me. I only need one example to prove you wrong.

No this is not genocide!This is

~We should find ourselves committed to killing a great many people whom we now leave living... A part of eugenic politics would finally land us in an extensive use of the lethal chamber. A great many people would have to be put out of existence simply because it wastes other people's time to look after them"

~Extermination must be put on a scientific basis if it is ever to be carried out humanely and apologetically as well as thoroughly,"

He suggested that the murders to take place on classical music. His idea was that every 5 years, citizens be called before a committee. And ask if they consume more than they produce

he said, also:'I'm an atheist and I thank God for it""All great truths begin as blasphemies""Why should we take advice on sex from the pope? If he knows anything about it, he shouldn't!"

But if you mention... the man was an atheist, and a supporter of Stalin.He left the Soviet Union in tears:"Tomorrow I leave this land of hope and return to our Western countries of despair."He defended Stalin's genocide, and hoped that exterminations one day be applied worldwide

He wasnt talking about parents. And you suppose its okay for christians to have camps where they indoctrinate their kids?appeal to tradition is at play here too.

Some people have traditions, others have not

Theres no evidence that a physical character called Jesus Christ. is the real son of god. Only the tradition of christianity says so. even if you proved that there was a real character called jesus. you still have to prove that he is the real son of god, and not some magician or fraudster.

I would like to see you apply the same criteria to Alexander the Great

European culture is based indisputable, on christianity, Only because of Christianity we progressed so much.And this European culture and civilization influences the world.

But I must say that culture and civilization are two completely different notions, but in Christianity they have blended very nicely.

Oh and btw. My "pen" hasnt even warmed up with you yet. Beware of that

I am not impressed with anything you said! have not gotten (so far) no new information from this ~young-historian".( that is so-called historian)

The second part of my demonstration.The idea of conflict, between materialism and spirituality.I touched on this subject a little on the atheism of the communists, but not enough.Communists / atheists believe that there is a conflict between:- science and religion- materialistic and spiritual vision- and obviously they have to do something about it (A kind of mission)

In the second place, such a journal must be a militant atheist organ. We have departments, or at least state institutions, which are in charge of this work. But the work is being carried on with extreme apathy and very unsatisfactorily, and is apparently suffering from the general conditions of our truly Russian (even though Soviet) bureaucratic ways. It is therefore highly essential that in addition to the work of these state institutions, and in order to improve and infuse life into that work, a journal which sets out to propagandise militant materialism must carry on untiring atheist propaganda and an untiring atheist fight. The literature on the subject in all languages should be carefully followed and everything at all valuable in this sphere should be translated, or at least reviewed.

But nobody prevents the publishers of these writings from abridging them and providing them with brief postscripts pointing out the progress made by mankind in the scientific criticism of religions since the end of the eighteenth century, mentioning the latest writings on the subject, and so forth. It would be the biggest and most grievous mistake a Marxist could make to think that the millions of the people (especially the peasants and artisans), who have been condemned by all modern society to darkness, ignorance and superstitions , can extricate themselves from this darkness only along the straight line of a purely Marxist education. These masses should be supplied with the most varied atheist propaganda material, they should be made familiar with facts from the most diverse spheres of life, they should be approached in every possible way, so as to interest them, rouse them from their religious torpor, stir them front the most varied angles and by the most varied methods, and so forth.

Two examples. Professor R. Y. Wipper published in 1918 a little book entitled Vozniknovenie Khristianstva (The Origin of Christianity , Pharos Publishing House, Moscow). In his account of the principal results of modern science, the author not only refrains from combating the superstitions and deception which are the weapons of the church as a political organisation, not only evades these questions, but makes the simply ridiculous and most reactionary claim that he is above both "extremes " , the idealist and the materialist. This is toadying to the ruling bourgeoisie, which all over the world devotes to the support of religion hundreds of millions of rubles from. the profits squeezed out of the working people.

The well-known German scientist, Arthur Drews, while refuting religious superstitions and fables in his book, Die Christusmythe (The Christ Myth), and while showing that Christ never existed, at the end of the book declares in favour of religion, albeit a renovated, purified and more subtle religion, one that would be capable of withstanding "the daily growing naturalist torrent" (fourth German edition, 1910, p. 238). Here we have an out-spoken and deliberate reactionary, who is openly helping the exploiters to replace the old, decayed religious superstitions by new, more odious and vile superstitions.

Modern atheists, regularly are attacking religion, and they believe they have a mission to "free" man, of his own ignorance.

They even criticizes those who do not "join ther cause".

Communists wanted to build a new society, and religion represent it for they the old and the superstition and what was worse.

Atheists they want to build, a new society. based on reason. Many of them are obsessed with the "evil of religion" for them, religion is against progress, more, they believe that religion will bring ~the end of this world".

In these conditions atheists consider, themself Knights of reasons struggling with "windmills" sory whit religion.Before anyone can install a dictatorship, a reason must be found. And that is "religion" for Atheist/Communist

These people believe that they are in war. They believe that the ~enemys" wants to destroy civilization, earth itself.

Logically, if one believes, really believes, that a certain group wants to destroy earth.What stops them to kill?response!Their number is too low, thay need time.

theyounghistorian77 you talk whit someone? somehow you use the third person?I see you repeat the previous posts.

Everything you show here, comes in my favor! Socialism is growing in the west, but socialism is just a phase in the building of communism.Communists have been exposed here in the East, but they did not quit.You think the west, that you have won the Cold War?No! You lost, You lost in the moment, you let your guard down, im moment you drop the gun.The moment you open markets, and borders and let the "Trojan horses" to enter.See Vladimir Volkoff.It is possible that communism, to do not be called communism at all, but ~The Venus Project" for example:

It would be so great if it were only a theory, but was applied in almost all the communist countries.All you have to do is to use the method for atheists.

communism (which i have already defined) has never been applied in so called communist countries. you so-far have Failed to define communism. And im beginning to suspect your language is delibarately Vauge.

Not, is an argument against you! in the west the cultural model dies. but this has happened before several times, an example is Rome.They became addicted of foreign mercenaries. Once Rome was the one that imposed its cultural model to the whole world, but things change as they approach, the fourth century.This happens with any society as it becomes mor and mor liberal, and loses its identity.Your culture, dies! you are not even able to reproduce efficient to replace the population that retires

So what is cool? You became so liberal that you can not even stop your on collapse

Appeal to tradition. Just because something is based in a culture, does not make it right. You know slavery was a big part of Romanian culture until the 1840's - 50s, Right? Are you going to justify that too? I would never.

Of what? That I was right there is a theory in political science "¦. I know that I studied it.

Sure you did. But ...

You do not understand the difference between liberalism and socialismYou do not understand the difference between Atheism and politicsYou do not understand how to factor a theory that applies to certain circumstances.

Surely, these are Basic requirements for a profession like political science?

They may want

But you wont condem it.

but you were the first to go in their land, for Oil and gas, for Isdrael!

Oh, it's our fault is it? Remember 9/11? or lets go back earlier. What of the barbary pirates? And What's your problem with israel. Are You a closet Anti-semite? (VyckRo logic tells me yes. If VyckRo Screams and cries, than i need to remind him that i've given a taste of his own Medicine. I'll use VyckRo logic against VyckRo whenever i feel like it. )

Maybe they are not communists ... yet, but the atheist way leads to communism!

lol

Is that supposed to refute my argument? You said that atheists have never achieved power outside the soviet union. I debunked that and this is all you can come up with to defend your point that atheists have never achieved power outside the soviet union?

Sad, Pathetic and lame.

Once you remove God, and once you proclaim man just an "evolved animal" you will get there

go even further, they deny in ther subconscious, the Communist idea, is so repulsive, that they can not accept it, but I'll show them that.

If they deny it like that, then they deny Communism the ideology. Period. Yet you claim that inwardly, most atheists in the west today accept communism. without any evidence to back it up.

I live in a country where atheists are represented only by former communists, ouu, and ther is that silly blonde ZombySomething and a group of 3-4 other angry people that follow her. People who think their mission in the world is to humiliate some people that they believe ther are delusional. (to them is like you would laugh at disabled people, and you humiliate them for ther ~handicap")

Im in contact with a romanian atheist, and a Polish atheist. And both are much more lassiez-faire than you give them credit for. And both disagree with you. I just like to point that out.

It is a theory, a theory that I sustain.

With no evidence or it being Peer reviewed first.

Alright then. but you still have to tell me how many atheists there are by % of population and how many communists there are by % of population. today in all those countries. Im waiting.

Thanks for that single example. Which unfortunately is a communist example. I will not be satisfied until i get examples from all those countries.

When I read thisWhen I read this ~where if religions leave them alone, than they will leave religion alone"

Laugh all you like. Laughter cannot change reality.

Atheists want to destroy religion, is the only purpose of the modern atheists to justify ther existence which they consider without an objective purpose.So then the atheist must ~manufacture" a purpose for their existence, and this is the fight against "religion". And the competition to humiliate all the non-atheist.Without it, atheists probably would commit mass suicide.

Even if that were true, Which in most cases is not. Would such a philosophy lead to objectivism or communism?

But at any rate, you didnt negate my point with regards to secularism so i presume you cannot.

Without it, atheists probably would commit mass suicide.

Nope, Atheists are much more rational than you are. Most atheists are not suicidal either. Is this another crude stereotype?

Atheists generally oppose that people to have ther religious opinion (except atheism), they opposed the human communities, or countries to preserve their cultural identity, they oppose that parents to have the right to educate their childrens,

They even oppose the democratic principles to, they are for anyone to express their idea in public, but not religious beliefs, these should be hidden, That if this is not about atheism, obviously! So we have censorship in public institution in the west

And you provide what evidence for this?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------this part is so funny, it deserves it's own seperate debunking.

Typical creationist logic, . If this response were a valid challenge to evolution, it would equally invalidate creationism and Christianity, since they are based on events that nobody alive today has witnessed either.

Now the latest theory is that mechanisms that allow an organism to change evolves. So the evolution itself happen, very quickly. And that is why we do not have so many. "Transitional forms", if this theory will be accepted by science, this will put Darwin next to Lamarck.. ( Darwin believed that evolution happens very slowly, and that we will find many, many "Transitional forms",

Every species in the fossil record is a transitional form, going from something, to something else. You ignorant fool.But the first part of that quote i presume deals with Punctuated equilibrium. (Your language is such that it's sometimes hard to tell what you are saying.) But disagreements between biologists are part of the scientific process. The idea of phyletic gradualism, which is invoked to justify a lack of gaps, could be seen to fail to fit the evidence of population biology. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punctuated_equilibrium

Not creationists, but skeptical

Why? there's no other or better idea that explains the diversity of life on earth. If you are going to make any arguments against evolution. You need to head to http://www.talkorigins.org to see if they have beenlong debunked first.

And that Richard Dawkins quote does not disprove evolution.

"The answer in practice is complicated and controversial, all bound up with a vigorous debate over whether evolution is, in general, progressive. I am one of those associated with a limited form of yes answer. My colleague Stephen Jay Gould tends towards a no answer. I don't think anybody would deny that, by any method of measuringÃ¢â‚¬â€°,Ã¢â‚¬â€°whether bodily information content, total information capacity of genome, capacity of genome actually used, or true ("Stuffit compressed") information content of genomeÃ¢â‚¬â€°,Ã¢â‚¬â€°there has been a broad overall trend towards increased information content during the course of human evolution from our remote bacterial ancestors. People might disagree, however, over two important questions: first, whether such a trend is to be found in all, or a majority of evolutionary lineages (for example parasite evolution often shows a trend towards decreasing bodily complexity, because parasites are better off being simple); second, whether, even in lineages where there is a clear overall trend over the very long term, it is bucked by so many reversals and re-reversals in the shorter term as to undermine the very idea of progress. This is not the place to resolve this interesting controversy. There are distinguished biologists with good arguments on both sides."

The controversy is not that evolution doesnt happen.

No, this is your Western thinking.

But you said

LOL"the Days of creation should be understood not literally ("For a thousand years in Thine eyes, O Lord, are but as yesterday that is past, and as a watch in the night.") but as periods!"

What you were doing there, was using one bible verse, to intrepret another verse, in a way that is non-literal to allow a theist to accept evolution through the medium of metaphor. So either you are agreeing with me or you're in flat denial of what you just said. Thus it can also be thinking for an orthodox christian as much as a western one.

You've seen it? Maybe you need to go see it again, You clearly got nothing out of it first time. You do know how economicly Fascist the soviet regime was. Right?

And before you start complaining. Fascism is not necessarily a thing of the political right. But you tell me how many atheists are fascist?

One point that has to be raised here that i dont feel that i havent touched upon. perhaps adequetely enough, is that you continue to make a classic error with regards to policy and ideology. What you do is to equate, or in some instances linguistically make interchangeable, a policy tool with an ideology. which i find absurd. The debate is about ideology, not about policy, despite your desperate attempts to try to make it so.

Your quote that

Therefore we will speak of real communism, not of an ideology that it can not be practically applied nowhere.

is an example of this. But lets have a look one example of policy Namely economics, which i consider to be the most important measure on the left/right political compass.

"Although lenin had promoted the expansion of the private sector under the NEP. He drew the line at ending the state's monopoly on commercial imports and exports" Stalin: a biography By Robert Service P193

The NEP by the way, was introduced in march 1921 in place of pre-existing rigid controls and to recover the economy after ww1 and the consequences of the civil war. It envisisaged the end of grain requisitioning and the development of limited market relations in trade and industry. Originaly a "Breathing Space" it was considered then by many bolsheviks, such as Bukharin, as a long term strategy for the transition to socialism.

Interestingly, Lenin had fantasised about state capatalism much earlier as part of a transition to socialism.

Lenin wrote:"If we introduced state capitalism in approximately 6 months' time we would achieve a great success and a sure guarantee that within a year socialism will have gained a permanently firm hold and will have become invincible in our country". "Economically, state capitalism is immeasurably superior to the present system of economy ...the soviet power has nothing terrible to fear from it, for the soviet State is a state in which the power of the workers and the poor is assured"

The task of the Bolsheviks was "to study the state capitalism of the Germans, to spare no effort at copying it".

The allegation that the Soviet Republic was threatened with "evolution in the direction of state capitalism" would "provoke nothing but Homeric laughter". If a merchant told him that there had been an improvement on some railways "such praise seems to me a thousand times more valuable than twenty communist resolutions".

"Socialism is nothing but state capitalist monopoly made to benefit the whole people"

But of course, the end goal of communism, is the abolition of capatalism. From an economiic perspective. the order of evolution is simple and as follows. Capatalism (even if it is Free market) to State capatalism (socialism as lenin described it). When the Withering away of the state is supposed to happen. so too does capatalism go. So fundamentaly, Capatalism is still incompatiable with Communism. But this leaves us with the logical conclusion at least, that the soviets were most certainly in their early days. State capatalist.

And we can believe that they were. It was a theme picked up by The New popular educator, edited by Sir J.A Hammerton, which had this to say. in 1933.

With a membership of less than two millions ... The communist party is an all powerful aristocracy. It is not easy to become a member of it, nor can any remain in it who are unorthodox in their views, dissolute in their conduct, disobediant to workers or slack in setting a good example as workers, as citizens, even as husbands and parents. Every member is at the disposial of the party. To go anywhere, to do anything required of them, is the duty of men and women alike. In return for their devotion, they get privilages of a material kind, and also the recompense of feeling that they are the driving force of the machinery for bringing the world a new conception of government -- Which stirs them to religious fervour. There is a good deal of the the spartan in the Russian Communist who is even inclined to look on the mass of people as the ruling class of Sparta looked on the helots and the perieoci. Russia has in fact, re-introduced aristocracy as a mode of government, substituting for birth and riches and the favouritism of Kings, which have been the active principle of most other aristocracies, the acceptance of a certain view of life and the readiness to make sacrifices to spread it. ... The economic form of the USSR is not communism, which implies an equalitarian state, but State capatalism. Russians have been credited with a genius for adapting what they borrow, and making it suit, their circumstances. - Page 1255.

Now If we were to compare the economics of Hitler and Stalin. we would quickly find that, during ww2 at least, the two economic systems both regimes practiced converged strongly. Stalin's Russia permitted a substantial private sector, while Nazi Germany became rapidly dominated by state direction and state-owned industries. If you want more detail VyckRo. Than i suggetst you read this. http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0393 ... sib_rdr_dp

in 1943 came the release of a book, I choose freedom, written by victor kravchenko. A factory Manager who defected to the west that you hate so much. Why? Because he believed that class privilege and the exploitation of labour in Stalinist society were no better than the worst excesses of capitalism.

in similar circumstances, Steel magnate, Fritz Thyssen fled to Switzerland because he believed that Nazi planning was 'Bolshevising' Germany.

but even with that in mind, despite the fact that privatization is incompatiable with Communism as an ideology, and despite the fact that private property is actualy part of Nazi ideology. This fact about the nazis have been acknowledged by historians and economists alike.

'Whatever level of state intervention, it could be argued quite forcefully that belief in private property was central to fascist ideology, as [Roger] Eatwell states: the sympathetic reference to socialism did not mean that fascists accepted the abolition of private property. This was seen as a law of nature. "The Routledge Companion to Fascism and the Far Right" p141

"Although modern economic literature usually fails to notice it, the Nazi government in 1930s Germany undertook a wide scale privatization policy. The government sold public ownership in several state-owned firms in different sectors. In addition to this, delivery of some public services previously produced by the public sector was transferred to the private sector, mainly to organizations within the Nazi Party.""Nazi Privatization in the 1930s" - Economists View 9/06

"Both Mussolini and Hitler showed their gratitude to their big business patrons by privatizing many perfectly solvent state-owned steel mills, power plants, banks and steamship companies. Both regimes dipped heavily into the public treasury to re-float or subsidize (private) heavy industry. Agribusiness farming was expanded and heavily subsidized. Both states guaranteed a return on the capital invested by giant corporations while assuming most of the risks and losses on investments. As is often the case with reactionary regimes, public capital was raided by private capital."Parenti "Blackshirts and Reds" p7

It is a fact that the government of the Nazi Party sold off public ownership in several State owned firms in the mid-1930s. These firms belonged to a wide range of sectors: steel, mining, banking, local public utilities, shipyards, ship-lines, railways, etcIn an article published in the Der Deutsche Volkswirt in February 1934, Heinz Marschner proposed 'The reprivatization' of urban transportation, which after the period of inflation came under public control, especially in the hands of local governments. This proposal was related to the Nazi governments support for returning the ownership of urban transportation back to the private sectorseveral months later, in an article discussing banking policy in Germany; Hans Baumgarten analyzed the conditions required for the reprivatization in the German banking sector. Discussion of privatization was increasingly common soon after the Nazi government took office early in 1933, and privatizations soon followed.

In the 1930s The Deutsche Reichsbahn (German Railways) was the largest single public enterprise in the world, bringing together most of the railways services operating within Germany. The German Budget for fiscal year 1934/35, the last one published established that Railway preference shares worth Reichsmark 224 million were to be sold.

The Commerz-Bank was reprivatized through several share sales in 1936-37. These shares amounted to Rm. 57 million, and the largest single transaction was a sale of Rm. 22 million in October 1936. Deutsche Bank was reprivatized in several operations effectively implemented in 1935-37. I suggest anyone out there to go read Nazi privatization in 1930s Germany, By Germà Bel

The list of Nazi privatizations covers every other sector as well, Mining Steel, Shipbuilding etc.. even areas within the social sector were privatized. This is also demonstrable in fascist Italy

"He (Mussolini) was relieved no doubt to find the commanding heights of Italian capitalism joining the great majority of the liberal order and certainly most landowners in applauding the march on Rome." (don't misread here, the word 'liberal' is being used in its actual form and not the politicized form that exists in the US. One could substitute 'upper middle-class' or 'Petty Bourgeoisie' here) Thereafter he and de' Stefani were careful to present the new government as fiscally orthodox, preoccupied with cutting wasteful expenditure but willing to assist capital by the denationalization of the telephone network and the cancellation of Giolitti's investigation into excessive war profits, and determined to balance the budget." "Mussolini's Italy" RJB Bosworth p224

And the actions of the Italian fascists showed their capitalist intentions.

"Once in power the fascists issued the so called "Carta del Lavoro" or Labor Charter which encouraged private entrepreneurship and specifically stated, "State intervention in economic production will only happen when private initiative is lacking or insufficient and when the political interests of the state are directly involved." ibid p227, Bosworth.

"Nazi planning left business intact, from the great firms like IG Farben all the way down to small retailers and backstreet artisanal workshops" Richard Evans, "The Third Reich in Power" p371

"The Darwinian principles that animated the regime dictated that competition between companies and individuals would remain the guiding principle of the economy, just as competition between different agencies of state and party were the guiding principles of politics and administration." Richard Evans, Ibid p410

And this little quote surely tops it all off.

"Those who believed that the Nazis would seal them from 'wucherkapital', wild exploitative capitalism, were to be quickly disappointed. The role of capital was strengthened rather than sapped by the Nazis." "Seduced by Hitler" Adam leBor and Roger Boyes, p61.

As an intermediate conclusion, What the nazis did was part of their ideology. What the communists did was not part of true communist ideology.

Now attention VyckRo, Here is a more modern example of policy not following ideology."I've abandoned free market principles to save the free market system." --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., Dec. 16, 2008

Neo-cons champion the free market more than any other group, and Bush, in response to the financial crisis, began to nationalise banks the banks. Not a piece of neo-con ideology. That explains the quote above.

In short, you cannot mistake policy for ideology. But we are debating ideology.

"Politics is weird, and creepy, and now I know lacks even the loosest attachment to anything like reality." - Shep Smith