I actually think that we and me included failt to forget that this was the first full year that ed amir and andrea played together. They are all very young and inexpeienced. Maybe like amir said before his bone headed statemet that they don't need anybody. All they need is more experience and growth. The improved results should come from internal development and not from a some white night who comes in and saves the day. Give the team another year lets see what happens add the high draft pick sign a few low risk vets.

I think Amir and DeRozan called it like it is. Yeah, they weren't diplomatic in their presser but who cares.

You are wrong. This was a classic case of passing the puck and blame the weaker guy on the team and using the exsisting excuses that are out there.

This will never fly in a cooperate environment. If I am in a team and my team project fails, I can not just say, it was all the fault of Mr.X and this is why we did bad even though X did not do his job right ??!!!

It is about the process. It is an 82 games season. These guys just went with the most common excuse that was available to them and use AB as their scape goat while ANY knowledgeable Basketball fan knows that the defense of the team does not START and STOP with one guy.

This is why I want BC to give that the guy they are asking for so we do not sit here another year , with loosing record and the worst defense in the league and get the same excuse from these guys who are suppose to be the building block of our future and getting paid millions.

With the statement like theirs, I even question their defensive effort. It is easy to slack off and not work hard when you think you can blame someone else for your shortcomings.

I actually think that we and me included failt to forget that this was the first full year that ed amir and andrea played together. They are all very young and inexpeienced. Maybe like amir said before his bone headed statemet that they don't need anybody. All they need is more experience and growth. The improved results should come from internal development and not from a some white night who comes in and saves the day. Give the team another year lets see what happens add the high draft pick sign a few low risk vets.

Bargnani has been in the league for five seasons and hasn't really improved his defense or rebounding. At what point do you go from optimistic that he will suddenly change to certain nothing will change?

New teammates have nothing to do with willingness to chase rebounds or box guys out.

You are wrong. This was a classic case of passing the puck and blame the weaker guy on the team and using the exsisting excuses that are out there.

This will never fly in a cooperate environment. If I am in a team and my team project fails, I can not just say, it was all the fault of Mr.X and this is why we did bad even though X did not do his job right ??!!!

It is about the process. It is an 82 games season. These guys just went with the most common excuse that was available to them and use AB as their scape goat while ANY knowledgeable Basketball fan knows that the defense of the team does not START and STOP with one guy.

This is why I want BC to give that the guy they are asking for so we do not sit here another year , with loosing record and the worst defense in the league and get the same excuse from these guys who are suppose to be the building block of our future and getting paid millions.

With the statement like theirs, I even question their defensive effort. It is easy to slack off and not work hard when you think you can blame someone else for your shortcomings.

Bargnani has been in the league for five seasons and hasn't really improved his defense or rebounding. At what point do you go from optimistic that he will suddenly change to certain nothing will change?

New teammates have nothing to do with willingness to chase rebounds or box guys out.

amirs been in the league longer. what didn't all the other coachs see in amir that make you so excited about his future? Andrea stated one of his goals in the offseason is to improve on defense. He commited his previous summer improving on offense and we can all agree it sure as hell improved. If he commits the same effort to defense this summer i sure as hell am confident it will improve.

The purpose of the thread is not who is a GREAT fit or if we should bring a DEFENSIVE Center or ... The purpose is to see who is available, who is really trade able and ...

Memphis will easily pay Marc Gasol 10-12 Million to stay there. Why would he come to Toronto, a 22 win team and be a part of this so called rebuild that has failed over the last 5 years ??

How much is the magical number for Marc and for Memphis that can make Gasol a Raptor ? Or Chandler from Mavs or Nene or ...

None of these big names will come cheap to the struggling Toronto and will not be available.

What I am most concern about is that if we do not get this " Defensive Center" are we going then to hear same excuse from Amir and DD next year after another miserable loosing season and embarrassing defensive display?

Couldn't agree more... the main reason I have been vocal about trading Ford, Jack and now Bayless!

As for Bargnani, rather than giving up on him, here's my alternative thought:
- bring in a defensive C that can start the game to help set the tone and be used in close game situations when the Raps need to focus on D.
- let Bargnani come off the bench as the 6th man, to play much higher % of his minutes against opposition 2nd stringers, allowing his offensive advantages to be even greater and his defensive disadvantages be lessened
- Amir could potentially be used as trade bait, to go with a 3-big rotation of Davis, new defensive C and Bargnani (possibly with Evans retained as 4th big)

RATIONALE:
1) Amir @ $4.5-5M per season would likely fetch as much or more than Bargnani on the trade market and the Raps would be dealing a redundant player (they already have Davis for the same position/role)
2) Bargnani's sense of entitlement would be destroyed and *HOPEFULLY* the light bulb would go on and losing his starting job would serve to motivate him more consistently, especially on defense and on the glass, in an attempt to win back the starting job (I could see Bargnani being a legit threat for 6th-man-of-the-year award next season)

I fail to understand or agree that ED and Amir being redundant is an issue. You of course do not want the same style PG since a change of pace is good and at times desireable, and perhaps at the C position for matchups, but at the PF position I for one like that they play a similar (although not identical) game.

Couldn't agree more... the main reason I have been vocal about trading Ford, Jack and now Bayless!

As for Bargnani, rather than giving up on him, here's my alternative thought:
- bring in a defensive C that can start the game to help set the tone and be used in close game situations when the Raps need to focus on D.
- let Bargnani come off the bench as the 6th man, to play much higher % of his minutes against opposition 2nd stringers, allowing his offensive advantages to be even greater and his defensive disadvantages be lessened
- Amir could potentially be used as trade bait, to go with a 3-big rotation of Davis, new defensive C and Bargnani (possibly with Evans retained as 4th big)

RATIONALE:
1) Amir @ $4.5-5M per season would likely fetch as much or more than Bargnani on the trade market and the Raps would be dealing a redundant player (they already have Davis for the same position/role)
2) Bargnani's sense of entitlement would be destroyed and *HOPEFULLY* the light bulb would go on and losing his starting job would serve to motivate him more consistently, especially on defense and on the glass, in an attempt to win back the starting job (I could see Bargnani being a legit threat for 6th-man-of-the-year award next season)

There are a few problems with this. The first is that if I had to choose which type of player would most likely be able to contribute to a winning team, I'd pick Amir. He consistently works hard at both ends of the court, is a good defensive player and an efficient offensive one. He is a very good role player and will do the dirty work. Bargnani is obviously a very good scorer, but on a good team, scoring is not going to be nearly as needed.

Another problem is that Bargnani is being paid as a starter. Amir is being paid at a salary that would be fine coming off the bench.

Bargnani has also struggled when he's been asked to come off the bench. Do you really want to risk that and his trade value by doing it again?

Lastly, the biggest problem with the Raptors is their defense, and Bargnani is a major reason for that. Trading Bargnani is as much changing the atmosphere of the team as it is getting the best back for him.

A lot of people seem to want to figure out how the Raptors would be able to keep him when it's really not worth it in the end. He's really not that transcendent an offensive player to be jumping through hoops to try and figure out how to play him effectively. Trade him and let someone else try and figure it out.

amirs been in the league longer. what didn't all the other coachs see in amir that make you so excited about his future?

If Amir doesn't improve a lick from here on out and brings what he brought this year for the rest of his contract then it was a sound investment. No where do I say I have bold expectations for Amir Johnson. In fact I've said I suspect he could end up relegated to the bench in a 6th man role. If he keeps up his play then I am happy.

DunkinDerozan wrote:

Andrea stated one of his goals in the offseason is to improve on defense.

He says that at the end of every season.

DunkinDerozan wrote:

He commited his previous summer improving on offense and we can all agree it sure as hell improved. If he commits the same effort to defense this summer i sure as hell am confident it will improve.

He only cares about scoring. You can't "learn" desire. Jay pretty much came out and said you can't earn minutes without it so Bargnani and the Raptors are in quite the dilemma if everything stays as is.

At what point do you go from optimistic that he will suddenly change to certain nothing will change?

In his second year he is averaging a double double per 36 minutes and 2.5 blocks. Keep in mind his rebounding numbers may be a little low due to playing with Blake who grabs so many boards. I'd be willing to put some money into a guy like that.

Lets not do the Per 36 since that is such misleading statistic and many scrubs will look like Micheal Jordan when going based on that stat. The bottom line is that he is unproven and his current numbers are nothing to write home about:

The Key here is that we can not just keep in investing on players without really looking at what they are and hoping it will pay off. Prime example is AB !! We invested 5 years in developing AB and hoping he will be a great defender and ... and now, we are blowing it up and can not wait to ship him out of the town.

The analogy for these sort of investment is like a stock broker that is just gambling on its entire portfolio. Sooner or later, he will end up broke just like we did after five years. In this league , you can go forward with blowing your team up every year, change focus.

Investing in DeAndrea is not going to be cheap. He will probably want a 4-5 year deal worth 9-10 million a year.

Is he worth it ? Maybe, but such a high risk.

Saying there is no chance at these guys is a little pessimistic, we don't know know what will happen. Maybe the Mavs lose in the first and Cuban decides to blow it up

That is wishful thinking. even if Cuban decide to blow it up he will not trade his starting center who has finally given them a defensive anchor down in the paint. He will move other players before he moves Tyson Chandler. If you read the report on Chandler in Dallas now, it is all positive and I don't think Cuban will ship him.

Per 36 is a misleading stat for guys who play 10 minutes a game and never actually get the numbers they are listed at. If you look through Jordan's game logs, you'll find he has been putting up pretty solid numbers for much of the season and has had quite a few double doubles. He has been inconsistent certainly, but saying that his per 36 numbers are not a good indication of his ability doesn't make much sense to me. I think if BC is really in the market for a center, DeAndre is exactly the kind of guy that would fit well on this team. It is risky, but so is signing anyone to a big contract. Also, the Bargnani comparison is flawed, Jordan's problem is offense, not defense. Offense is easier to teach and to compensate for. Even if DeAndre never learns to score, he can still be a big part of this team with his shot blocking. I am honestly sort of torn about who I would rather sign if we had a choice between Oden and Jordan for the same money (9 mil a season). Oden is obviously the better player at the moment, but he is always injured and I don't think his ceiling any is higher than Jordan's is. Thing to keep in mind to is that if you want a decent 7 footer, you have to pay. Everyone and their mom wants an athletic, shot blocking, 7 foot center and you have to be willing to take a risk on a young prospect if you ever want to get one.
Maybe your right that Chandler likely won't be available, I'm just saying that he is on the market this summer, and if we are really desperate for a center there is always a chance BC will make a grab for him. One thing you can count on with BC, he will take gambles.

"Victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival."

I fail to understand or agree that ED and Amir being redundant is an issue. You of course do not want the same style PG since a change of pace is good and at times desireable, and perhaps at the C position for matchups, but at the PF position I for one like that they play a similar (although not identical) game.

I didn't say it was a bad thing, actually I was saying having 2 players like that is a good 'problem' to have. That's why I said that if a good trade opportunity came along, it would be less of a loss to trade Johnson, since they would still have a similar PF (ie: defensive presence and hustle) in Davis.

I have always agreed that Bargnani's D has been a liability, especially when on the floor with Calderon & DeRozan, who are equally terrible defensively. However, unlike a majority of people, I don't think that the only viable solution is to trade Bargnani. I think he is still young enough with more potential for growth/improvement in all facets of his game, including defense & rebounding. Even his biggest hater must admit that offensively he creates all sorts of matchup problems for the opposition, which helps him and his teammates to score more effectively. I am just trying to figure out a way to deal with him and motivate him to put more effort in. He has been a polarizing force all season, with RR readers either saying that he's an all-star or a bum that should be traded... I am trying to be objective and am seeing more gray area instead of just black or white... hence my thought to bring in a defensive C and let Bargnani be the #3 'big' as the 6th man off the bench.

To relate my thought even further to the topic of this thread, I think Oden and Toronto would be the perfect fit. Most other teams would expect Oden to perform like a #1 overall pick should perform, including putting in significant minutes. In Toronto, he could play reduced minutes in a 3-big rotation with Davis & Bargnani, allowing him to ease back more slowly from surgery and put less wear-and-tear on his knees. With him playing less minutes than he likely would elsewhere and Bargnani reduced to 6th man, it could prove to rejuvinate/motivate both former #1 overall picks!

Per 36 is a misleading stat for guys who play 10 minutes a game and never actually get the numbers they are listed at. If you look through Jordan's game logs, you'll find he has been putting up pretty solid numbers for much of the season and has had quite a few double doubles. He has been inconsistent certainly, but saying that his per 36 numbers are not a good indication of his ability doesn't make much sense to me. I think if BC is really in the market for a center, DeAndre is exactly the kind of guy that would fit well on this team. It is risky, but so is signing anyone to a big contract. Also, the Bargnani comparison is flawed, Jordan's problem is offense, not defense. Offense is easier to teach and to compensate for. Even if DeAndre never learns to score, he can still be a big part of this team with his shot blocking. I am honestly sort of torn about who I would rather sign if we had a choice between Oden and Jordan for the same money (9 mil a season). Oden is obviously the better player at the moment, but he is always injured and I don't think his ceiling any is higher than Jordan's is. Thing to keep in mind to is that if you want a decent 7 footer, you have to pay. Everyone and their mom wants an athletic, shot blocking, 7 foot center and you have to be willing to take a risk on a young prospect if you ever want to get one.
Maybe your right that Chandler likely won't be available, I'm just saying that he is on the market this summer, and if we are really desperate for a center there is always a chance BC will make a grab for him. One thing you can count on with BC, he will take gambles.

Well, I hope you are right about DeAndrea. I am sure that offering 9 million a year will land make the Clippers pass on him and get us our center for years to come. Clippers have Griffen and Eric Gorden to worry about and I think they are going to make a serious push for either CP3 or Howard or maybe even Williams on 2012 so they can not really match a 9 million a season offer.

if we end up drafting derrick williams, which is a distinct plausibility. Then, we've got our center.

If that is truly at the top of the list, then I don't see why we wouldn't be drafting williams if still available.

I don't think D.J. is as legit as some think, if he continues to improve next season, i'll be convinced.

Also, the odd man out there is pretty good, like all-star good, before he got hurt, wouldn't be surprised to hear his name pop up. especially because everyone is so impressed with Jordan, he could probably be snagged for less than usual for an all-star, with little to no competition.

Last edited by LBF; Fri Apr 15th, 2011 at 06:46 PM.

If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

The purpose of the thread is not who is a GREAT fit or if we should bring a DEFENSIVE Center or ... The purpose is to see who is available, who is really trade able and ...

Memphis will easily pay Marc Gasol 10-12 Million to stay there. Why would he come to Toronto, a 22 win team and be a part of this so called rebuild that has failed over the last 5 years ??

How much is the magical number for Marc and for Memphis that can make Gasol a Raptor ? Or Chandler from Mavs or Nene or ...

None of these big names will come cheap to the struggling Toronto and will not be available.

What I am most concern about is that if we do not get this " Defensive Center" are we going then to hear same excuse from Amir and DD next year after another miserable loosing season and embarrassing defensive display?

i don't know by the sounds of it they are going to invest a lot in zach randolph, don't forget about mr. gay either.

If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

if we end up drafting derrick williams, which is a distinct plausibility. Then, we've got our center.

If that is truly at the top of the list, then I don't see why we wouldn't be drafting williams if still available.

I don't think D.J. is as legit as some think, if he continues to improve next season, i'll be convinced.

Also, the odd man out there is pretty good, like all-star good, before he got hurt, wouldn't be surprised to hear his name pop up. especially because everyone is so impressed with Jordan, he could probably be snagged for less than usual for an all-star, with little to no competition.

I don't get it man, are you saying Derrick Williams for C? I am not seeing that.

If Amir doesn't improve a lick from here on out and brings what he brought this year for the rest of his contract then it was a sound investment. No where do I say I have bold expectations for Amir Johnson. In fact I've said I suspect he could end up relegated to the bench in a 6th man role. If he keeps up his play then I am happy.

So basically what your saying is that based on his play this year he has earned the right to be a raptor, but Andrea hasn’t?

He says that at the end of every season.

We live Canada he’s learning from the best who needs change? Sometimes I feel people take words WAY out of context. If Amir said he wanted to become an all star next year the next minute a thread would be created … titled Amir from Scrub to All Star Bang!

He only cares about scoring. You can't "learn" desire. Jay pretty much came out and said you can't earn minutes without it so Bargnani and the Raptors are in quite the dilemma if everything stays as is.

How do you measure a person’s desire? If somebody scores 20+ ppg doesn’t that indicate they have burning desire to score the basketball.

At what point do you go from optimistic that he will suddenly change to certain nothing will change?[/QUOTE]

Just a little something to throw out there Larry Bird entered the league as a 23 year old just saying.

Just a little something to throw out there Larry Bird entered the league as a 23 year old just saying.

So what's your point? And for reality sake, I believe he was 21. Drafted in 1978, bday is in december, born in 1956. Unless I am having a total brain fart that tells me Bird was 21 when the season started, turning 22 mid-season, and by both accounts not 23. Either way, still don't see what the age Bird started playing at is relevent to whatever your argument is.

Don't jump the gun on a vet C this summer unless its a stop gap like Nazr M. Ditch the bum Bitchnani for prospects, start Amir and Ed, tank one more year to score big in the 2012 draft and then go after your impact Center. By that time we'll have the up and coming pieces to start competing.