I'm all for original ideas, but like others said above, I don't feel some of those scenes would be right for Logan.

You said it's not torture, just molestation.. which is still a crime
It's psychological and emotional torture
for wolverine to watch yukio basically rape an innocent woman is in no way heroic.

I'm all for exploring sexuality and his violence, and other adult ideas.
But knowing Aronofsky's history with such subjects in his films, I think it would've come off too demented and uncomfortable.

Wolverine has the animal in him, but above all, he's still a hero.

It would only come off demented and uncomfortable to those hanging on to the kid-friendly Wolverine established in the cartoon (& sadly the Origin film).

This Wolverine kills for a living, in Tokyo.

Everything he does in this story not only works because of its connections to the comic but because it depicts what Wolverine's life would really have been like had he once roamed the streets of urban Japan. There's not a single moment that feels forced or "comic-booky".

He kills, he loves, he drinks, he has sex, he makes mistakes, he learns things, etc.

I'm all for original ideas, but like others said above, I don't feel some of those scenes would be right for Logan.

You said it's not torture, just molestation.. which is still a crime
It's psychological and emotional torture
for wolverine to watch yukio basically rape an innocent woman is in no way heroic.

I'm all for exploring sexuality and his violence, and other adult ideas.
But knowing Aronofsky's history with such subjects in his films, I think it would've come off too demented and uncomfortable.

Wolverine has the animal in him, but above all, he's still a hero.

Exactly. Wolverine's animal nature needs to be explored, since Origins thought it was fine to just say he was an animal in dialogue, but never actually make him do anything remotely horrible and just stand around and complain about other people being cruel. But, this script I feel just goes too far away from Logan's moral center for no real reason other than to explore themes Aronofsky himself relishes in as opposed to what is proper for Logan to be experiencing.

I love Aronofsky's work. He has made amazing films and I am very high on him as a director. But, I am also high on Ang Lee. Look how Hulk turned out. Lee tried to do something different with Hulk, but in the process missed the point of Hulk. I see kind of the same thing here. Amazing filmmaker trying to make a character bend to his will as opposed to exploring him organically.

this script I feel just goes too far away from Logan's moral center for no real reason other than to explore themes Aronofsky himself relishes in as opposed to what is proper for Logan to be experiencing.

What do you consider a "proper" emotional reaction for a man who kills for a living watching his psycho girlfriend molest & seduce a random woman on a Tokyo train?

What in your opinion is he supposed to do to Yukio? Kill her? Tell her "stop it, Yukio, this is wrong."?

You bring up Wolverine's moral center as if its being compromised in this story, better yet - by this one incident, but I don't see it being compromised at all.

Aronofsky doesn't relish in morbid subject matter. He relishes in character exploration - which is what that scene is supposed to do. Show a man at his lowest point.

Wolverine's "moral center" consists solely of not killing innocents.

I can tell the whole thing sounds taboo to you - but taboos are exactly what this genre needs to break through.

Aronofsky delves deep into the dark passages of his character's psyches.

This is a story that takes Wolverine on a journey of existential discovery.

When I say "explore beyond the panels" I don't mean changing the core of the character as developed in the comics, but to expand the canvas for Wolverine's characteristics to exist in. There are things to be inferred.

Sorry man, not following you here. What things need to be implied or expanded on film that havnt or cant be done in the comics for the character? And why would you consider not doing this to be a disservice to the genre? Do you have an example from another comic film?

What things need to be implied or expanded on film that haven't or can't be done in the comics for the character?

Well Aronofsky's script for starters.

Clearly some people have a problem with the treatment of Wolverine which I just don't see in the context of the story. Everything he does seems in character considering his state of mind and surroundings. He's a killer who see's himself as an animal. Unhuman. On top of that he's in a relationship with a psychotic woman who loves that animal side of him. She brings out the worst in him. It's only natural that he'd get pulled down a black hole of murder, sex and debauchery. These actions are the natural manifistation of his character in this state of mind. I don't see any cavernous gaps between his actions and his moral center.

Quote:

Originally Posted by def28

And why would you consider not doing this to be a disservice to the genre?

Because it would break new ground and expand the possibilities of what you can do with these characters.

Clearly some people have a problem with the treatment of Wolverine which I just don't see in the context of the story. Everything he does seems in character considering his state of mind and surroundings. He's a killer who see's himself as an animal. Unhuman. On top of that he's in a relationship with a psychotic woman who loves that animal side of him. She brings out the worst in him. It's only natural that he'd get pulled down a black hole of murder, sex and debauchery. These actions are the natural manifistation of his character in this state of mind. I don't see any cavernous gaps between his actions and his moral center.

It would break new ground and expand the possibilities of what you can do with these characters.

Agreed with everything, specially the bolded.

These situations are happening to him because he's descended into darkness. When he's in the light, he's quite heroic.

Clearly some people have a problem with the treatment of Wolverine which I just don't see in the context of the story. Everything he does seems in character considering his state of mind and surroundings. He's a killer who see's himself as an animal. Unhuman. On top of that he's in a relationship with a psychotic woman who loves that animal side of him. She brings out the worst in him. It's only natural that he'd get pulled down a black hole of murder, sex and debauchery. These actions are the natural manifistation of his character in this state of mind. I don't see any cavernous gaps between his actions and his moral center.

Because it would break new ground and expand the possibilities of what you can do with these characters.

Have you read the script? Or are you just judging based on the ideas presented that he had in mind? Without comparing both scripts being used its just a hard call to make imo. I trust Aronofsky, but I just dont have the info on Magolds version Vs his to make the call that it would be a worse take for the franchise. I def really want a more unleashed Wolverine this time arund but I think a good film is still possible even if it doesnt push the boundries as much. The themes and character can still be there.

Have you read the script? Or are you just judging based on the ideas presented that he had in mind? Without comparing both scripts being used its just a hard call to make imo. I trust Aronofsky, but I just dont have the info on Magolds version Vs his to make the call that it would be a worse take for the franchise. I def really want an more unleashed Wolverine this time arund.

I'm not arguing against the Mangold version, just for why I would have loved to see Aronofsky's. All I know is what Jackman said recently. That the new script (Mangold's) is 85% the same.

I'm not arguing against the Mangold version, just for why I would have loved to see Aronofsky's. All I know is what Jackman said recently. That the new script (Mangold's) is 85% the same.

Gotcha so Im assuming you have read the script by Aronfsky. I thought Alexei was the only one. I think I got this now haha. By "disgrace to the genre" you meant it would be a bad move to pass it up cause the script brings something new and groundbreaking we havnt seen or read with the character yet.

Gotcha so Im assuming you have read the script. I think I got this now haha.

I haven't read the script, I'm just going off the scene decriptions I've read and the questions I've seen answered in this thread. Those scenes alone were well beyond my expectations for this film, or any comic film. It's the Wolverine film I'd want to see.

Quote:

Originally Posted by def28

By "disservice to the genre" you meant it would be a bad move to pass it up cause it brings something new and groundbreaking we havnt seen or read with the character yet.

Hmm, I see what you're saying. The problem at least for me is that I think it's out of place in THIS particular story. Wolverine during his spy days, pre weapon x op, when he was a killer who enjoyed killing, I could see that scene working. However the Japanese storyline is past that. This is the type of scene that should have been in the origins movie.

Aronofsky's screenplay does a tremendous job reminding the reader that this story has absolutely nothing to do with the last film.

The word "mutant" is never used and only one person in the script knows Wolverine ain't human.

As far as I'm concerned, this is the origin story. Its the beginning of the "Legend of Wolverine".

I haven't read the script, I'm just going off the scene decriptions I've read and the questions I've seen answered in this thread. Those scenes alone were well beyond my expectations for this film, or any comic film. It's the Wolverine film I'd want to see.

Yes. Especially in the film genre.

Nothing wrong with liking ideas from a scene, but basing the quality of the full script on a few scene descriptions isnt really fair on either side of the argument. Theres nothing really for people to judge except for the idea of the scene itself. Its very understandable to see why some wouldnt be keen on the idea.

Nothing wrong with liking ideas from a scene, but basing the quality of the full script on a few scene descriptions isnt really fair on either side of the argument. Theres nothing really for people to judge except for the idea of the scene itself. Its very understandable to see why some wouldnt be keen on the idea.

People have become too accustomed to these characters being aimed at the kids. The notion of Wolverine having sex with Yukio onscreen, or of him watching her have lesbian sex onscreen still remains very taboo to said people.

People like this guy:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Project862006

haha yeah that scene sounds awful yeah lets get the audience to root for wolverine i know lets see him get aroused by a public molestation

not only is that not wolverine that is not even yukio yeah she is a bit crazy but public rape lol i don't think so

"That's not Wolverine! Wolverine is a hero."

Well, this hero works for a crime lord in Tokyo. He kills for that crime lord.

How many heroes can you say the same thing about?

The Punisher is the closest one & even then - Castle wouldn't allow himself to be a hired gun. Wolverine is lost in Japan. The screenplay serves two purposes: to showcase how lost he is & how he eventually finds himself.

Truthfully, I'm not surprised people can't handle some realism in CBMs. Specially after 10 years of restrained adaptations that turned Wolverine into a pseudo-Captain America when in reality he's the very definition of the anti-hero.

By the way, just because we have a new thread for this...insufferable attitudes and insults will still not be tolerated. Let's keep this as a discussion and not a platform for blasting those who we do not agree with.

Truthfully, I'm not surprised people can't handle some realism in CBMs. Specially after 10 years of restrained adaptations that turned Wolverine into a pseudo-Captain America when in reality he's the very definition of the anti-hero.

It doesnt mean people cant handle realism though or even the subject matter. Look at all the themes of sex and violence in Sincity and Watchmen. Tons of people watch those two and love the hell out of them. I think everyone on this board wants a more berserker animal infused Wolverine to be shown with this flick. That scene described and in question is in no way gonna be universally welcomed, especially if no one knows the full context of the script. All it sounds like is a scene of graphic sex and violence. Could it work? Sure, but scenes like that will be uncomfortable for some to watch and others might think its out of character. There are mos def other ways that are just as effective to portray Logan, and the bad choices he does make. Its not like it has to be done one way or bust.

Portraying Wolverine strictly as a hero in XMOW was a mistake. He was completely innocent during the whole team X and Weapon plus thing. It completely contradicted what was said in X2 and we probably should have seen him do some really jacked up stuff to people. From the pics online this film looks to take place after hes met Xavier ( I could be wrong) and not prior. That is a huge change on Logan as a character. Its hard for me to picture him making some more questionable decisions after. Hes a full on hero and practically a caretaker last we see him in the film franchise. Doesnt mean he cant go ape **** on bad guys, but if hes making some disturning bad moral choices, it could seem a bit off for his character imo. There should be limits once a character has already gone through change. I take it Aronofskys was pre X Men, so this might have been more acceptable for the character to grow and learn here from some more disturbing moral choices, but if its post meeting the X team I dont think it would go to well.

I trust Aronofsky as a film maker and think it would be awesome to see his version of the character. Im sure it would be radical change on screen from what weve seen. Doesnt mean others will or should agree.

People have become too accustomed to these characters being aimed at the kids. The notion of Wolverine having sex with Yukio onscreen, or of him watching her have lesbian sex onscreen still remains very taboo to said people.

People like this guy:

"That's not Wolverine! Wolverine is a hero."

Well, this hero works for a crime lord in Tokyo. He kills for that crime lord.

How many heroes can you say the same thing about?

The Punisher is the closest one & even then - Castle wouldn't allow himself to be a hired gun. Wolverine is lost in Japan. The screenplay serves two purposes: to showcase how lost he is & how he eventually finds himself.

Truthfully, I'm not surprised people can't handle some realism in CBMs. Specially after 10 years of restrained adaptations that turned Wolverine into a pseudo-Captain America when in reality he's the very definition of the anti-hero.

So, because Wolverine works for a crime lord, him watching a woman molest another woman is excusable and in character? This has NOTHING to do with it not being for kids, and everything to do with it being out of character. Wolverine has shown far more chivalry over the years than to allow that to happen. It is simply not Wolverine. You could easily do the Yin/Yang stuff with Wolverine being a violent killer. THAT is very in line with Wolverine as a character, as he is vicious and mercilessly kills. But, this scene showcases an aspect of Logan that was never there before, and it is one I firmly feel Wolverine wouldn't do. Making him get off on lesbian molestation isn't somehow more realistic.

Wolverine doesn't have to be for children, but am I asking too much in asking for a mature film that is actually in line with the moral center his years in comics have firmly made clear? Not just add shock value to "be more mature"

I have no problems with those scenes. The lesbian scene is "extreme", but not totally out of character for Logan. He has a dirty mind, and it's from the time he didn't give a ****.

Even the interrogation thing is something we've seen in the comics. Somewhere in the Origins run.

__________________"But I did stay very true not only to the first two movies but to the comic books." -Brett Ratner on X3"I'm ready to go to war against them, but I can't because they don't give a s--t." -Mathieu Kassovitz on 20th Century Fox