There was a dodgy, cadmium sulphide light meter in Kiev 19M, probably even less reliable today than it was thirty years ago. I think the people behind this revamping project (= net SE) preferred to seal up the battery compartments rather than to service the original meters or to replace them by modern, reliable ones.

The hero image of the camera with the wood grip and leather does not inspire any confidence. In my personal opinion, looks very amateur. If the wrapping is that bad, what is underneath? Well, for $299 you can find out. Back in film's heyday, that wasn't a bad price for a fully functional SLR, but those days are gone. It's just too easy to pick up a fully functional Nikon for much less. The only reason I'd want a Kiev 19 would be for the novelty, and novelty isn't worth much.

just spotted in local auction site Kiev-19M & 2/50 Arsat sell for 69,95€. seller probably knows nothing about this kickstarter thing. maybe I should buy it just to see how amazing the Ihagee Elbaflex would have been

No surprise. If it really cost $300 each to make a new, very basic unmetered 35MM SLR then the market does not exist, despite the small bump in film sales.
There are just too many other options in used cameras for much less money.

Well, I am not surprised, now, that the kickstarter failed; as was pointed out here too many parts of their proposal just didn't add up.

Too bad, I think. Not that this one failed but that the project was, apparently, such a cynical rehash of old FSU gear.

If some one had proposed to do something like ARAX has done for the K-60 and K-88 cameras and been explicit that they were rebuilding or "blueprinting" the cameras, that would really get my attention and, possibly, my money.

I believe that there is a market--certainly small--for a new basic 35mm SLR. Thinking about the Bessaflex here. Those were metered and have a much better range of shutter speeds but still fairly basic.

I could see the few existing companies that would actually be capable of a project like this using kickstarter as a way of judging sales but why would they? If any of those manufacturers wanted to build a new basic film SLR, it seems likely that they would do some kind of pre-order.

And, they'd have to decide about lenses--offer some crippled version of current AF lenses or offer just the body for people to source their own MF lenses for. That's not likely given the small market for such a camera.

They actually were asking pretty much the same money for both cameras. Difference being the Reflex was an all new design with some really cool features and spec, the Ihagee was dusted off surplus Kiev 19s with broken meters that they attempted to pawn off onto suckers.

Well,
I believe that there is a market--certainly small--for a new basic 35mm SLR. Thinking about the Bessaflex here. Those were metered and have a much better range of shutter speeds but still fairly basic.

I could see the few existing companies that would actually be capable of a project like this using kickstarter as a way of judging sales but why would they? If any of those manufacturers wanted to build a new basic film SLR, it seems likely that they would do some kind of pre-order.

And, they'd have to decide about lenses--offer some crippled version of current AF lenses or offer just the body for people to source their own MF lenses for. That's not likely given the small market for such a camera.

Rob

I have sitting in front of me a Sears KS 500 with a 50mm f2 standard lens. (Rebadged Ricoh KR5 with 50mm f2 Rikenon).
It is working perfectly including the meter, has a PK mount, and was $5 at a photo show. Now that was a bargain I know, less than the average e-bay price for a similar camera and I could check it out personally before I parted with my 'coffee money'. But at the going rate of $20~$50 on the big auction site for a Ricoh KR5 (or similar) any new, meterless, 35mm SLR body only would have to sell for less than $150 to have any chance at all. And I just don't think anyone could break even on such a low price point. Ergo, there is no market for the Elbaflex camera (as presented) at this time.

That leaves us with one new 35mm SLR in current (very) limited production, the Nikon F6 at $2500 for a body.

I have sitting in front of me a Sears KS 500 with a 50mm f2 standard lens. (Rebadged Ricoh KR5 with 50mm f2 Rikenon).
It is working perfectly including the meter, has a PK mount, and was $5 at a photo show. Now that was a bargain I know, less than the average e-bay price for a similar camera and I could check it out personally before I parted with my 'coffee money'. But at the going rate of $20~$50 on the big auction site for a Ricoh KR5 (or similar) any new, meterless, 35mm SLR body only would have to sell for less than $150 to have any chance at all. And I just don't think anyone could break even on such a low price point. Ergo, there is no market for the Elbaflex camera (as presented) at this time.

That leaves us with one new 35mm SLR in current (very) limited production, the Nikon F6 at $2500 for a body.

First off, the disclaimer; I am not picking on Zuiko85 specifically, only using this post as an example of a type.

All posts of this type assume that all everyone wants are used cameras. Or...perhaps worse yet...all they really should have is a used camera.

I don't believe that to be true. There really are people in this world who enjoy using film enough to go out and buy a new camera for it.

Personally I think that this is a very defeatist attitude, and wrong as well. If this were really true then you wouldn't see any new car dealers. There would only be used car dealers because there are certainly more than enough used cars out there to keep everyone happy. There will always be those few used cars out there that are barely used and are real bargains. The same is true of cameras.

I don't see Lomo selling old, used cameras to their customers. Do you? Not everyone may love the types of cameras that Lomo is selling, but they are new ones. This is because they do know what their customers want. Think what you want of the Lomo group, they believe enough in film to sell NEW cameras that use film. Most people who would consider using film along with digital are not interested in spending the time on EBay or at flea markets to find some old camera that may, or may not, work.

For myself, I shoot film and digital. I bought a new digital camera a few years back and still use it. I also bought a new film camera a few years back and use that one as well.

The 2nd point I have to make is this...if there is no longer any market for new cameras then film really is dead.

First off, the disclaimer; I am not picking on Zuiko85 specifically, only using this post as an example of a type.

All posts of this type assume that all everyone wants are used cameras. Or...perhaps worse yet...all they really should have is a used camera.

I don't believe that to be true. There really are people in this world who enjoy using film enough to go out and buy a new camera for it.

The 2nd point I have to make is this...if there is no longer any market for new cameras then film really is dead.

Not feeling picked on at all Pioneer. You make valid points.
And yes, there really are people out who would go out and buy a new film camera. Maybe even enough to sustain a small company....and maybe not. If Nikon could not sell enough FM10's (and granted, the price went up to over $500) to continue offering a 35mm SLR with a reasonable price, and with their very good name on it to push sales. Then, my point is, the market, although it does exist, is just too small.
All the caveats you mention about buying used cameras (especially for a neophyte) are true, no argument there.
But, unfortunately for the dream of a new production 35mm SLR, until the flood of used but serviceable cameras (even adding the cost of refurbishment) dries up it's going to be hard to make and sell a new SLR.

Not sure about the used/new automobile analogy. For 99% of car owners transportation is a necessity. For 99% of film camera owners it is a hobby, and if push comes to shove, money for food, shelter, and clothing have priority over money for a hobby. I have personal experience regarding the last sentence. (As I imagine a lot of folks on this forum do.)

Disclaimer: Percentage statistics mentioned in my post are a WAG (wild ass guess) and may bear no similarly to reality.

This is indeed a success (their goal was set at £100,000 with a £150,000 stretched goal) but the numbers (262 cameras, 105 refurbished lenses) are quite small. It would be difficult for any company to make a living out of this.

This is indeed a success (their goal was set at £100,000 with a £150,000 stretched goal) but the numbers (262 cameras, 105 refurbished lenses) are quite small. It would be difficult for any company to make a living out of this.

Having backed several Kickstarter campaigns less technical than this one, I shall reserve judgement until 262 reliable, working cameras are in the hands of backers. Estimated delivery, August 2018, that is only 9 months and is probably too optimistic as they run into the realities of trying to mass produce and assemble components, even large established camera companies have stumbled trying to introduce a new camera. I'd say give it two years to be fair.

This is indeed a success (their goal was set at £100,000 with a £150,000 stretched goal) but the numbers (262 cameras, 105 refurbished lenses) are quite small. It would be difficult for any company to make a living out of this.

That gets them going and enables an actual product to be offered with visibility. Then you will see the big name camera stores (and maybe others) carrying them, providing visibility to others looking for a new film camera who were unaware of the kickstarter campaign.
I only knew of if because I spend too much time on websites full of curmudgeonly people complaining about the death of film and how you'd be nuts if you didn't buy the same old mildewy camera that they are using. That most prob needs a major CLA.
Try to explain to someone what a CLA is who is a newbie. And who they need to send it to. And how much it will cost. And how long that will take.

As our esteemed Pioneer mentioned, there very much is a market for new cameras. Especially an all new design that brings really cool things to the table.
The Nikon FM10 'failed' because honestly it is a horrible piece of plastic that is not even made by Nikon, but one that they asked crazy money for at the end. I used one and the feeling I got was they gotta be ***** me asking that kind of money for it.

If Reflex gets Lomo to carry this, as well as B&H etc, they will do very well. i have a lot of cameras, and none of them are like this one. That is a good thing.

No argument about a market for new film cameras. Just for this thread, since both KS campaigns were for 35mm SLR cameras (granted with different levels of features) Lets limit the type of camera under discussion to that type.

Yes, there is a market, but my main concern is, at what price point. And can a robust reliable camera be built at that price point.

Also what features? My personal preferences are not the same as other customers. (and are no more valid). Another factor is that old guys already know what we like, a neophyte just starting out in film has not developed those preferences yet. So...what do you build? What lens mount? You ask ten contributors to this forum and you are likely to get at least 5 or 6 different answers.
More questions. Auto focus or not? Battery dependent or fully mechanical?
I just think that if you asked "How many would consider buying a new SLR?" Then a lot of hands would go up. But then if the price has to be $500 for a basic body, how many would actually buy it at that price.

If you are going to make new film cameras someone should also make new lenses for them. Who is going to do that? How much will they cost? Should they be solid, well damped and smooth manual focus, or plastic autofocus, Mechanical linkage to stop down the lens or a solenoid built into the lens signaled from the body through gold plated contacts.

Personally if I had independent wealth so that I could start a camera company I'd reintroduce a OM-1n and 5 or 6 primes between 28mm and 200mm.

Also what features? My personal preferences are not the same as other customers. (and are no more valid). Another factor is that old guys already know what we like, a neophyte just starting out in film has not developed those preferences yet. So...what do you build? What lens mount? You ask ten contributors to this forum and you are likely to get at least 5 or 6 different answers.

I guess you never read the spec on the new Reflex. It comes with interchangeable lens mounts. So u can use a ton of different lenses. Including your Oympus lenses. And why would they make new lenses when one of the mount options is Nikon, who still make new Ais lenses.

You're not the market. You want a new old OM. The Reflex is genius in that it brings flexibility to users to use whichever lens they want.

Yeah Huss, I read the spec on it. Interchangeable mounts eh, with open aperture meter coupling and auto aperture operation? I don't know, they don't say. In fact, the information on specifics are meager to say the least. They don't mention if any of the various lens mount modules are meter/aperture coupled at all. Nor what type of shutter, all mechanical? Electronic timing, battery required? Interchangeable screens? Diopter adjustment built in to the eyepiece, or add on? What is the native eyepiece set to, 1 meter, .5 meter? (To be fair, most camera makers did not include that information back in the day. Too bad, it could have been useful.)

Yes, I've got my OM's and they will last as long as necessary so I'm not interested in this unit, if it comes to market. As far as it being 'genius'.......time will tell.

PS; I'm not opposed to manual control of lens aperture, I have a Pen F film camera and have original Olympus adapters for both M42 and OM mount lenses plus a couple of 'T' mounts for pre-set T mount lenses.

All the young film shooters I know are using film for the whole "film experience", and that includes using vintage gear as a very big part of said experience. New cameras are boring to them.

It must be a desert here, (south Puget sound) I don't know any young film shooters....
Wait, I do know of one young lady, about 6 years ago I sold her my Mamiya C220 outfit. I sold it for less than half of the going rate because I had seen her work with a borrowed Yashica TLR and knew she would use it to good effect. She is a true artist (something I'll never be) and her darkroom prints are stunning. But she moved to Seattle so isn't local anymore.

Otherwise all I see are smart phones or digital being used everywhere. A couple of months ago I encountered a fellow with a Mamiya 645, but he was a gray hair like me.

I see lots of kids/young people in LA using film cameras, including my nephews and their friends.

I actually see very few digi cams in downtown- seems to be mostly smart phones (99%), then film cameras. And Samy's film department is doing gangbusters business every time I'm there (several times a week). They have 3 locations in SoCal.

I see lots of kids/young people in LA using film cameras, including my nephews and their friends.

I actually see very few digi cams in downtown- seems to be mostly smart phones (99%), then film cameras. And Samy's film department is doing gangbusters business every time I'm there (several times a week). They have 3 locations in SoCal.

Must be the locale then. We have The Evergreen State Collage, a liberal arts school, and, last time I checked they still had a darkroom. I would think I'd see at least a few students downtown using film but no, hardly ever. We have zero places to buy film in town. For labs still doing C-41 I think there may be one lab in Parkland, (56 miles round trip). But other than that a person might still find something in Seattle. (120 mile round trip)

Sounds like you are in film paradise. Does Samy's also sell used film equipment?

Sounds like you are in film paradise. Does Samy's also sell used film equipment?

Yup they do. Just saw a young woman buy some Canon EOS something, because she wanted a film camera but automatic! So much for wanting a mechanical purist jobby. I actually was a bit surprised.

Samy's film prices are exactly the same as mail order from B&H or Adorama. Plus sales tax. But no minimum purchase for free shipping, so it is a wash. But you can have it RIGHT NOW! so they pull ahead. For all the Lomo bashing, they carry a lot of that film too, and apparently are moving it. Their regular (not funky tinted) 100, 400 and 800 stuff is very good.
In Hollywood Mel Pierce and FreeStyle photo sells plenty of film too.

I think it's the same deal in San Fran - lots of film users and shops.

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