Discussion (87) ¬

My bigger question is going to be “what the heck is dan supposed to do with it”, which might get answered in the near future anyways. A good sword is great in the times of Arthur, but I dunno what Dan would really be able to do with it here.

I would imagine that, at the time, only Merlin and Arthur knew about the pool of Arwyn, and Arthur was aware of the fact that only Merlin had been able to go through it, because he had magical powers. If Arthur wanted anyone to be able to go into Dreamland, he would need some way of having it done that did not need the person to be powerfully magical, hence Merlin’s search for the way to make the amulet, and the trouble we know king Arthur got into. And since Merlin’s been treed, no one else knew of the pool, and no one has seen Niviene since that time, so no one could even mention anything of the sort to Alex and Nastajia when they visited the centaurs.

Also, since the sword of the Kings (I presume) only records what happens around the king in Dreamland, and that this whole Excalibur thing happened on the earth side of things, while Arthur was awake, the sword would not have known about it or been able to relay that info to the gang, when it did the expose on king Arthur, a while back.

So while it does open up some possibilities now (to a limited degree), I think it’s still workable within the whole Arthurian lore without messing it up much. Besides, I don’t think Nivien would consent to become an otherworldly magical courier service person, so that is probably not an option. In dire emergency, perhaps, but one would still have to go way out into the sea, and have to face the sea serpents first, before even reaching her…

Lake nailed how I thought of it all really.. Tho I, too, ask the question about how Excalibur can help Dan in our world.

Of course if Excalibur is a tool that focuses and grants wisdom, that would not be out of line with other Excalibur lore we have. It could then help Dan by bonding with him and granting him a King Solomon-like wisdom.

Such wisdom enhancement could indeed be useful in our world, specially if Dan were to go into politics (the equivalent to modern day rulers), or business … specially if the business was dream research? (Just tossing ideas about)

Excalibur already being portrayed as a tool to help unite people in peace as opposed to a weapon of power, sets the stage nicely for it to be a wisdom enhancer for kings. (Such wisdom would also have led Arthur to return the sword to dreamland when people saw it as a weapon of power.

But The Sword of Kings did show some of the human world stuff in its historical replay. I was thinking that it might not have shown Excalibur then because Arthur might have already returned the sword to Niviene by that point in the story.

Well The Sword of King’s can only be used by the King of Dreamland in Dreamland, which gave Merlin the Idea of creating a sword that could only be used on Earth, hopefully as a symbol of unification like the sword of Kings is, in Dreamland. So every time we see Arthur with the Sword on Earth, it’s actually Excalibur. While in Dreamland, it’s the Sword of Kings.

As for the pool, it’s unique to Niviene, and after everything that happend to Arthur, she went into seclusion. If Nik knew about her and what she could do, He’d have used it to go to Earth…. Could be that the pool can only be used for short durations, so that the Dragons don’t return to Earth. She can only keep it open for so long or they could break through…

hey scott, how you could go about this is that ‘the implication is that there could be as many ways to cross the divide, as there are ways to dream.’

from what I’m seeing, the Bahta Ilikshi and the Pool of Auryn were pre-existing methods to transfer, though the Pool was originally a method of bringing the two worlds close together without merging at that point. the combined magic of Niviene and Merlin at that spot where the two worlds touch was the force needed for the two worlds to briefly merge. I think that’s still what it takes, since she’s still using Merlin’s magical focus, his staff. She also mentioned that Merlin’s magic keeps her young, so while Merlin is still alive, all the energy he would have been spending while awake is bent toward keeping Niviene from dying.

(We could also get super technical and say that since he’s a tree, he’s getting a constant energy supply via photosynthesis, but blah, probably a bit too superfluous at this time.)

The bracelet that King Arthur had commissioned would have taken a whole lot of magic because they were more or less creating a new method of crossing worlds. Where the Bahta Ilikshi only transfers messages, and the Pool of Auryn facilitates a ‘temporary’ bridging of the worlds, the bracelet would have a provided a more permament bridging, and thus, would have required a lot more energy in its founding. It needn’t take that same amount of power for further use after the creation of the bracelet, since that magic would have already been invested from the outset.

1) Arthur returned Excalibur before the battle we saw outside of Camelot.

2) Arthur used Excalibur to become king and gather his knights and build Camelot. I expect Excalibur was forged years before Arthur claimed it.

3) Arthur wanted his enemies to see and experience Dreamland, not just see one Mermaid in an underwater grotto. The only reason Niviene can cross briefly between worlds is because she studied magic for months. Excalibur can cross because it was specifically forged to do so. The Pool can’t let just anything cross. I don’t see this as a jailbreak of stuff flowing between worlds.

As to what Dan can do with it: This is a blade forged in Dreamland. It may have magical capacities. It is now in our world. Until we know what it can do, we will not know what uses Dan might be able to put it to; but it might be a game changer.

There is this about the pool – it’s a one-way door, and only Nivienne has the key. She can only cross over for a limited time – and it’s not easy for anyone else to get to the pool from the Dreamland side. Nor do we know if anyone else can use it if Nivienne is not there.

As for Excalibur, too many unknowns. Does it have special powers? Can it remain in our world once Nivienne returns to Dreamland?

I’d say you still have room for finessing this if you have to, Scott.

But it’s a great addition to the tale so far. (And at least you haven’t dragged in the Holy Grail yet – else we’d be dealing with Indiana Jones.)

“3) It took a LOT of magic from BOTH sides to get the Bahta Ilikshi (medicine bag) into our world. Then even MORE to try and forge that bracelet/amulet that would allow others to travel between worlds. With the introduction of the Pool of Auryn and Niviene…how does this “wreck” that whole process?”

Both of the above are for convenience. It looks like the Pool can only be used for communication if it’s “activated” by someone on the Dreamland side, and it’s deep in a dangerous, secluded, deep sea. And for transport, the communication side needs to already be open, AND the transporter has to be an exceptionally skilled mage.

If Arthur had opted to use the Pool instead of the bracelet for travel to Dreamland… well, for the first, did he ever even know about the pool? Did Merlin entirely agree with his king’s decision to allow the reckless, anger-driven factions battling him to be allowed into this peaceful world? Did he want them around his lady love? If not, he could easily have kept it secret.
Second, what could he have shown? “This is a mermaid, this is an ocean. Oh yeah, that kiss she gave each and every one of you after Merlin’s repeated casting of the transport spell turned you guys into mermaids too. Let’s go see the surface world, shall we?” *Swimming for hours, surface/shore still not yet reached* “Whoop, the spell wore off and we’re back in Camelot. Oh well. Hey, it was pretty cool to be mermaids for a couple hours right?”
Third, it hasn’t been stated whether their transport spell works on other living creatures. It may just be caster-only. And if a version exists that CAN be used on someone else, it’s possible Niviene doesn’t know it. Merlin was the scholar with access (at the time) to books about magic, and other human mages. Niviene was not.
Fourth, the Bahta Ilikshi was in the hands of the centaurs, not the mermaids. The centaurs were in an entirely different area than Niviene was, and each area is probably inaccessible to the other. It’s like having Skype with a person in Australia while also messaging someone in France on Facebook.
Fifth, back to the bracelet, someone could theoretically use the bracelet and get access to Dreamland by doing nothing more than falling asleep, with no restrictions on it like those that exist on the sword. You wouldn’t need a readily available mage to use it… it’s just a lot more convenient.

did he ever even know about the pool? Did Merlin entirely agree with his king’s decision to allow the reckless, anger-driven factions battling him to be allowed into this peaceful world? Did he want them around his lady love? If not, he could easily have kept it secret.

It would be rather hard for Arthur not to know, when both Merlin and Niviene “presented Excalibur to King Arthur in hopes that it would aid him in his quest to restore peace to England”…

It’s more likely that Arthur was aware of the limitations of this mode of communication between the waking world and Dreamland.

He probably knew that there was some sort of method for transporting inanimate objects. Whether Niviene was actually there in Camelot with him is debatable. She could have seen him during its creation in Dreamland, presented it to him upon completion there, and then taken off to give it to Merlin at the Pool. Or she may never have directly interacted with him.

Enough is left unsaid about that that it’s unsure. It’s likely that he knew, yes, but not set in stone.

2)purpose could be anything… a gift? where on earth would one get a sword forged by Elves and dwarves? a symbol, nothing more, no magical powers (but probably pretty strong)

3)a paradox yes, but let’s say that any Object (not people, at least those with out magic) can pass, where that pool is located, it is not very practical to access from Astoria… logistically, you need mer people (with magic and as of yet we only know of one), how far did Alex and Nastajia go before finding Navinene? so possible yes, but not practical.

one more thought on point 3… it does not wreck the fact that it took a lot of magic, in fact it strengthens that point. Naviene studied magic for how long before she could break the barrier? and of course Merlin was on this side. you can argue that since she transformed Merlin, she somehow absorbed his magic as to why she can do it now…

Don’t fret it. As I see it, “magic” happens to be as powerful as it’s needed to be for a certain destination to be fulfilled.

Destiny features heavily in all European legends and lore, so, the “right” amount of magic can only be invoked when the streams of time & destiny converse juúst the right way.

This can be in a short time, or in a long time. F.I. The German legend of Barbarossa, has him buried under a hill in West Falia (i believe) but when there is a time of dire need for Germany, he will rise. But only thèn. That time has not yet come, so the magic isn’t strong enough to raise him from his slumber.

Ireland has even better legends about time convergence and magic.

As a European, I have no trouble accepting that magicis only as powerful as it needs to be. I read too many legends to assume otherwise ( not that I believe in magic, but even legends have certain rules. Appropriate magic is one of those rules)

Your mom is simply awesome! I voted yesterday AND today! Love the Excalibur panels! I’m waiting to see how it affects/or not Alex’s kingship, and what if anything Dan will do with Excalibur. Awesome panels! Love your work!

The sword opens a lot of alternative avenues to explore. You could use it as a major piece, or a minor, even a sidebar. Although everything entered into a story has meaning, it might be just a vehicle for another character. You’re telling the story, Scott. I am merely a rapt follower.

Well, it’s a sword. You know, a sort of very big knife that you use to kill people on a battlefield. If you meant it as a symbol of peace, maybe you could have made it into something that’s not a weapon? Just saying. :p

Swords of old weren’t always used to kill. It’s also an expression of wealth, or might.

I own a Zweihänder that’s most certainly nèver used to kill anyone, since it’s dull, and waaay too heavy to be useful. It’s basically a parade-item, an ornament.

Yes, true, it’s a weapon, but so is a flint-lock. They stem from a time where life was short and brutal. Yet, they are/were all prized items, not for their potential to kill, but as a great demonstration of exquisite artizanship, proof of wealth etc. In contrast to modern weapons, that are as sober as it gets, solely constructed to kill, and leaving no doubt about it.

As any re-enacter will tell You, using a sword in a fight, is way more involved than just pulling the trigger and hurting someone bad at a100 yards away from you.

It may sound freakish, but a sword takes the anonymity out of killing, so, I can imagine that there was much more to a sword, in the olden days, than just a tool for shish-kebabing others.

I’m suspicious of Niviene ‘s motives. What does she expect Dan to do with it? She knows something of the Waking World. I doubt she thinks Dan can unite 6 billion humans with the power of Excalibur. The only logical conclusion is that she is encouraging Dan to usurp his brother.

1) The Sword of Kings records history and can tell it back, so what does Excalibur do? By legend it was an unstoppable blade, though I’d rather have the scabbard which made the wielder immortal (or there about). Is this sword only good for physical combat, or will allow Dan to have some sort of insight into other people? Is there something innate about the sword that people who see it naturally feel that it’s beyond the normal? If nothing else it’s a physical and undeniable reminder to Dan of his true place in the universe.

2a) What was Excalibur to Arthur? Was it used as proof of Dreamland, but wasn’t that what the Bahta Ilikshi was made for?

2b) Merlin still had his moment saying “I know nothing of Dreamland” which casts a shadow of doubt about how much Arthur knew about Merlin and his own experiences with Dreamland, if anything at all. Did Arthur know about the forging of Excalibur? Did he know that Merlin and Niviene were involved with its forging? Did Arthur know Niviene at all? Was there a point when Arthur doubted himself and was going to give up on Dreamland as some fanciful thing when Merlin and Niviene created Excalibur and “The Lady of the Lake” to help Arthur though that dark moment?

3a) Yes, the ease with which Excalibur enters our world is…disturbing giving the Dreamland lore to date. When Merlin went to Dreamland and the magic wore out presumably he and all he took with him came back to this world. Inversely when Niviene came to our world and the magic wore out presumably she and all she brought with her went back to Dreamland.

3b) It took centuries of practice and great magic to make the Bahta Alikshi. It took time, practice, great magic and a personal connection for Merlin and Niviene to cross. It was Merlin’s research into the Bahta Alikshi & the Pool of Auryn which were the foundation for the bracelet Arthur was going to use to created some type of permanent bridge. Who knows what it took, what sacrifices were made, to forge the Sword of Kings so long ago. All we have about Excalibur is that it was “forged by Elves and Dwarves.” There had to be a sacrifice of some kind (time, magic, life, ability, etc.) to allow Excalibur to exist fully in either world. Was there a sliver of the Sword of Kings forged into it, or did Merlin give up his ability to go to Dreamland, or etc.?

3c) Or is there a connection between the true king of Dreamland and Excalibur that allows it to pass and remain? Is it somehow tied to Dan? Is he the only one in this world who can wield it?

So…here’s my advice. Daniel doesn’t need a sword right now anyway, does he? Have him give Excalibur back to Niviene for safekeeping, and if he ever needs it as a symbol or anything in the future, then give him a means of communicating with Niviene, so she can return it to him.

While this does seem a bit out of place, I believe what Arthur was trying to do, was to have a controllable method of bringing someone over to Dreamland. Not only so that they don’t have to use a median like Niviene in order to bring someone across. The Sword was created in Dreamland thus using Merlin and Niviene’s magic, they were able to make the object transport through the barriers.

Well, you have officially advanced to the next round, now, so congratulations on that. I hope that you continue to have a really good showing in the tournament and advance again.

Unfortunately, it looks like you’ve got a really tough bracket ahead of you, being in the same bracket as both xkcd and OOTS. I think xkcd will be tougher to get past, since it tries to appeal to the type of people that are most likely to be online a lot, and because the author of OOTS generally discourages his fanbase from voting because he would rather lesser known comics get more publicity (though when he did try having them vote, they crashed the servers of the voting website multiple times in a 3 month period, and his recent Kickstarter project obviously shows he has a lot of supporters as well, so if they decide to turn out, they might dwarf everybody else out there).

I wish you had ended up in an easier bracket, but I hope that this contest brings a lot more awareness for your comic, and you get a lot more fans out of it that enjoy it like we do.

Somehow I don’t think so. Alex has expressed abject terror at having to be a responsible) king. Personally, I think it’d be fun for them to share the title. Dan could be in charge things like treaties, strategies, plannings, stuff like that. Alex could take on the ‘ leading the troops’ and being a hero roles. I guess we’ll need to wait and see, though.

It’s clearly an equal divide: Dan is the brains, and Alex the brawn. A perfect unity.
Why should thereonly one “king” ? I know, i know, I am biased, coming from a country that has a Queen, as well as a coalition government. I am used to “shared power” I cannot wrap my mind around the whole “single-power” -thing.

Well, it is obviously easily provable at this point if they want to do so. However, I still get the feeling that after seeing that (and especially if she could also see Nastajia), she would just say, “I am so proud; Daniel finally has a girlfriend [and Alex finally has found a girl he really cares about, too].” Or something along those lines at least.

Scott:
The bottom line is that this world is yours, you sculpt it to make it fit. It could be as simple as that Excalibur is just a fine example of elven and dwarven craftsmenship, but an ordinary Dreamworld Blade. Because Niviene has the ability to cross through the pool, so too does any Dreamland equipment on her person, else she would arrive naked in the Waking World. This allows for Excaliburs easy transport BECAUSE of the hard work put into learning how to cross over by Merlin/Niviene/Arthur as opposed to DESPITE it. And lastly, I agree that I am confused about what Dan is going to do with it, but Im sure that you have that figured out already. What I do know is that it probably shouldnt allow him to travel into Dreamland, that would seriously devalue Alex’s sword, but perhaps a Dreamland Artifact in the Waking World has special unique qualities…
I guess we’ll have to wiat and see. Hope this helps you a bit.

I think it works. There is a big difference between a magic user crossing a plane/portal limited to physical spaces with similar characteristics in both worlds and receiving an object in your dream somewhere in dreamland and taking it back with you to your bed where it materializes out of thin air. Excalibur is physically crossing through a portal, it is not suddenly materializing which intuitively should take more power than using a pre-existing portal that just needs a magic ‘key’.

What’s the point of Excalibur in this interpretation?
Perhaps it somehow allows the true king to see any being or any place in Dreamland when he grasps it and wills himself to see. We didn’t see Arthur wielding Excalibur earlier, because he didn’t like standing around outside in a trance with his eyes closed having visions. He only used the sword in private.

Why the medicine bag?
It’s not practical for items to wind up at the bottom of the sea every time they need to send something. I’m sure they’d travel through the sea of monsters no more than ONCE before deciding they need to find some other way to move things (or people) back and forth safely.

Heh, all these discussions about what Excalibur means to Dreamland and I’m shaking my head at Niviene’s comment about “restoring peace to England”. If there ever was a historical Arthur he existed centuries before there was any conception of a place called “England”; in his time it most likely would have been Britannia or whatever the Old Brythonic equivalent of the Middle Welsh Prydein is.