(21-09-2010 07:33 PM)jkshrout Wrote: I personally would try to negotiate, but you do make a very good point. Still, I think there's a difference between parents forcing their kid to do something and a husband forcing his wife to do something. But you're absolutely right.

Oh, and you clearly haven't met my mother. She's somewhat of a bonehead.

Sounds to me like you're on a good path to becoming a well rounded young man. Good for you for conceding the points that make sense to you, and for standing your ground when you feel you should.

And of course your mom is a bonehead. Every parent is when you're fifteen! Try to give her a break now and then. You may just find she's not so bad when you get a little older.
Hats off to you. Keep that attitude, and you'll make us atheists proud! (Just teasin you a little )

(21-09-2010 08:47 PM)Stark Raving Wrote: Sounds to me like you're on a good path to becoming a well rounded young man. Good for you for conceding the points that make sense to you, and for standing your ground when you feel you should.

And of course your mom is a bonehead. Every parent is when you're fifteen! Try to give her a break now and then. You may just find she's not so bad when you get a little older.
Hats off to you. Keep that attitude, and you'll make us atheists proud! (Just teasin you a little )

I believe that intelligence isn't about always being right, but also knowing when you're wrong. I felt that I was incorrect about stating that Muslim women have a choice, and I'll gladly admit that I was incorrect.

An atheist who can't admit he is wrong is no better than a theist, no?

"Remember, Jesus would rather constantly shame gays than let orphans have a family."
-Stephen Colbert

(21-09-2010 02:44 PM)BnW Wrote: And, the argument that they can just leave is not realistic. Where are they going to go? Most of these women will have limited education, limited skills to get a job, and their whole live is in this community. If they leave, the are walking away from everyone and everything they know. Friends, family, etc. How exactly do they just pick up and leave? What if they have kids, how do they provide for them? They are essentially trapped by their circumstances.

OK so here's a recap from my perspective. These women do have a choice not to wear them so it is voluntary. The Choice is not much of a choice because the option could be worse than the Burqa. So rather than make a ridculous law that will solve no problems, make safe options for these women if they want out. Protect them. Then the choice becomes a real choice (still very difficult) but real none the less. The Amish have a similar choice them get the option to leave with no reprecussions except they lose their family forever. Difficult choice, but if you choose to stay you can't argue it's not voluntary. Although I still say businesses and any building has the right to not allow these women in just based on security concerns, but a governmental ban is a whole other level.

Maybe this is an underhanded way for the French Government to thin the rather large Muslim population.

I think it is a bad idea, as it impinges on the religious freedom that everyone should have. If they feel that burqas should be outlawed, then maybe they should outlaw crucifixes for their Catholic population, which I think makes up a majority of the people in France.

I saw a Muslim man today in town with his 3 wives (liberalist's 1 law some some, another for the rest policy) walking 20 paces ahead holding the shopping and pushing the prams. Then it hit me: How did I know that the women were not actually men? I could not see their faces. For all I know they were on their way to shoplift or they were going to split off and detonate in shops at opposite sides of the road.

"In December, nine Salafists in Catalonia (Spain) kidnapped a woman, tried her for adultery based on Sharia law, and condemned her to death. The woman escaped and fled to a local police station just before she was to be executed by the Islamists."

(04-10-2010 12:57 PM)sosa Wrote: "In December, nine Salafists in Catalonia (Spain) kidnapped a woman, tried her for adultery based on Sharia law, and condemned her to death. The woman escaped and fled to a local police station just before she was to be executed by the Islamists."

I think the point is that we must not assume that just because the issue of burqas is being brought up in a modernized, liberal country, such as France, we cannot assume that the same extremism that exists in the Middle East does not exist in there. Just because it is in France does not mean that the women are generally free to act as they please.

Is it not possible, however, for a woman to genuinely want to wear a burqa?