A flinch is what it is. A martial move that incorporates a flinch is the best way to configure custom brain wiring on top of hard-wired, primal responses. You probably agree with me on that.

Absolutely

This thread has been interesting , and not for the usual reasons , it's hard to articulate a physical art when often folks are saying the same things just different ways.

my little pet joke of dodging is just a thought id put out there , while timing footwork and evasion are very important skills, I see most people using this to make sense of kata , I don't believe this is valid as I think to put it bluntly if you can evade time and dodge everything the technique is fairly redundant.

Id put blocking in there also but one grenade at a time I guess.

but then id be building absolutes , that I'd trip over , words fail the point being made.

Bill your statement of kata being kata and application being application is a prime example

Not so long ago I would of very much disagreed , believing kata must be functional and done with the purpose and for effect clearly its applicative , and yet if taken another way one can be in agreement in the sense that the principles of kata need to fit and adapt to the situation outside of a rigidity of the template.

Also Glens statement that kata is not symbolic and literal , I agree moves should be literal , until as Bill suggests things get to literal and robot ryu sets in , intent as in all things is key.

as for symbolic , the moves undoubtedly are ritualised and symbolic until the partner is reintroduced , more too consider......

the jump is just a variation of a step and a slide , I also pivot , these are the three blocks of movement/footwork so really could be taken in any variation and combination for the experienced.

I think everyone on here probably has an interesting and functional approach to this stuff , would be fun to cross hands and compare.

Here's an interesting Wing Chun video clip which shows some applications of the "Seisan jump legs" in the Seisan jump. I'm not completely on board with everything he says, but he's good at what he does and this starts the conversation.

The first leg lift of the jump can be considered as either an inside Bong Gerk or inside Taan Gerk....

One doesn't need to use Bong or Taan Gerk strictly as defensive moves. Orient yourself properly, pull back, and then lift the leg inside their leg with the foot acting as hook (per the proper foot position of the first leg lift in the jump)....

I agree with his use of the external Taan Gerk, but disagree with his execution. No... you don't have either the time or the (one-legged) mechanics to pull off a "circular" move with that leg. Keep it simple. Consider the orientation of the second leg in the Seisan jump - the one you pose with. As with our arm rubbing exercise, the trick is blading your leg so you "slip" the kick like a boxer or Seisan master would "slip" a strike. I demonstrate this all the time and shock students when I show them that neither of our shins get hurt. And then your posture is all aligned to continue your movement forward per the philosophy of the three thrusts early in Seisan kata....

You can also use an external Taan Gerk as part of a throwing motion per the hooking motion described above.

I don't like that technique,when the guy has hold of both your arms it's foollish to raise one leg you are so badly off balance. My wing Chun teacher used to shut down kickers just by pressing on their guard, as I've said before he was a thai boxer as well, so he had some experience with this.

when the guy has hold of both your arms it's foollish to raise one leg you are so badly off balance.

You're presuming a lot with that statement which may not be the case at any one instant in time. Nothing is static. Athletes constantly adjust their centers as they move. And having that extra leg free gives you the opportunity to put it where you want when both partners' centers change.

Furthermore if *you* have hold of both *their* arms, then you can pull their center over the leg you're about to manipulate. And that's pretty much how most "dumping" techniques work.

There's nothing radical here. That's pretty much how crane gung fu works. Uechika *jump* into one-legged stances tens of thousands of times in their training. And anyone who kicks or drives a knee is temporarily in a one-legged stance. A Thai boxer will do the knee to your legs or torso all day long while in a clinch.

Obviously if you feel off balance then you should never take one or the other foot off the ground. But then you'll never move.

Many years ago people used to argue about whether or not a horse had all four legs off the ground when running. Those who said no thought it preposterous. How could a horse not fall down when doing so? I mean really! Then motion photography came about, and the question was answered.

Bill touches on something , when it comes to being on your feet your only ever stepping , sliding or pivoting .

combinations and order of these vary , but its pretty basic , master the basics and the rest is open ground

this is kind of the same but different reason I posted the systema clip , not specific movement but principle based movement when it comes to avoidance.

All movement can be capitalised on in regards to imbalance as its all a form of controlled falling.

I always find it interesting how many karateka struggle to work from a natural neutral stance, when we transition through it pretty much in everything we do , its all a question of attention and intention I guess.

ok Racehorses aside .....a little experiment, stand in front of somebodty and ask them to push your shoulders hard, next stand on one leg and ask the person to do the self same thing.notice the difference it really doesn't matter whose kata it apears in, or whether a guy from (a questionable lineage of ) Wing Chun does it....BTW it's called science

ok Racehorses aside .....a little experiment, stand in front of somebodty and ask them to push your shoulders hard, next stand on one leg and ask the person to do the self same thing.notice the difference it really doesn't matter whose kata it apears in, or whether a guy from (a questionable lineage of ) Wing Chun does it....BTW it's called science

Oh that simply means that you either have not trained your one-legged stance well enough or that your chi is off

If you're wondering why Ortiz got so emotionally hijacked, look very carefully at the pitch pattern. They had no intention of giving a strike. In fact none of the six pitches were strikes. But just before the video clip where you see Papi backing out of the batters box even before the ball is released, a pitch was thrown at his face. Look at the box that shows the location of pitches, and see pitch 3. That's when the adrenaline started flowing.- Bill

I understand that having someone throw at you can cause all sorts of reactions. But a few things that I see here. One it didn't look like Ortiz asked for time out. And if it's not granted then he should stay in the box. Players step out of the box all the time like asking for it is automatic. So it not being granted and the resulting strike are the right call unless something has changed.

This video really bothers me as Ortiz is a role model to so many. He's a big name professional baseball player making millions. As such we should hold him responsible for his actions. Ejecting him was right. HIm smashing up the dugout was wrong and his potentially hurting his teammates was really wrong. I didn't see if he got a suspension and/or fines but this is clearly a case of where they would be justified.

Maybe some will disagree with me, but we wonder why kids act like punks but we allow this sort of behavior? Blow off steam, throw the bat down, get ejected, do what batters have done since the game began, but busting up the dugout and having the bat shatter where people can get hurt is way over the line IMHO stress or not.

Or simply put, don't we train to learn and be able to maintain control? Baseball players know getting thrown at is part of the game. Rules are in place to keep it in check but they're professionals and should know how to control themselves.

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