Can anyone tell me where to find a kit or turn key replica builder for a Mercedes 300 sl gullwing

frenchs

There was a builder out in Gardena Californa who built the replica gullwing named ostermeier...he even had a restaurant called the gullwing back in the mid 90s. I understand he sold the business. I sure hope it wasn't to the toy car manufacturer.

meat

There was Gullwings Unlimited.

There is also Thoroughbred Coach Builders. As I previously posted on another thread:

They have been around for a very long time. I know that the were in another state before moving to Mount Dora, Florida. Curt's site has a negative post about them from 1997, and no newer updates saying that they've mended their ways. That's a pretty big red flag, as Curt is really good about posting any changes in status.

Also, there is a member who used to be here but who hasn't posted in awhile who was reportedly starting a kit car company, and the gullwing was one of the cars he was planning on starting. His username is "Crew Chief" and his email is crewbuilder@yahoo.com . Whether or not the company came to fruition or not is unknown; he hasn't posted in awhile.

Jay Sherman,Thank you for the link, The replica Gullwing car really is hard to tell the difference. This car is made with Mercedes parts and engine as well.I guess the only difference I can see is one is $68,000 and the original is about $300,000 +. I did here of one going for $750,000

gullwing

I am working on a 1954 Mercedes Gullwing kit. As much as I have searched I haven't found anyone else working on such a kit not any sources of parts. Is there anyone on this list who can provide me with any help.

Gregory Walter

REDSIL

Last I heard (1 year ago) Hermann Quint had a complete set of molds to make the Gullwings, 3 complete bodies and all plans and parts list for building them on a shortened Corvette Chassis. BUT he wants $150k for all. Not bad if you want to go in business, but too much to build a car. I have all the info. email me for copies. Better have $150k or he won't talk to you!Also I have literature from IFG (Int'l. Fiberglass Group) in Calif. that used to make a replica/body & chassis kit. Don't know what happened. i also have literature from Thorobred but went there & couldn't find them. Still looking for a kit/body.

gullwing

I can add a little more to the discussion as I continue to do my research.A) There was a company in Gardena California that was making kits. I was told it was run by a Tony Ostermeir and that he sold everything or that his investors took all the assets. It would be nice to locate him as I am in need of parts like door hinges, latches, turn indicators, cowl grill etc.

B)Thoroughbred motors in Mt Dora Florida makes the 300SLR kits. There are starting to ramp up for the 300SL however to date they have yet to fabricate some of the items listed above. (I bought my kit from them)

C)Hermann Quint has been making turnkey 300SL for years. He originally used Corvette frames but now uses his own steel frames with a great deal of Mercedes parts (non 300SL parts). I have spoken to him several times and he claims his machines are indistinquishable from original. However that is an overstatemnet. He uses mercedes V-8 motors, automatic transmissions, AC and other goodies. He may do a great job but......

D)Lone Star in texas makes a roadster. No one answers their phone or E-mail

E)Scheib in Germany makes a roadster. Their web site is in German

frenchs

Hi Gullwing, Ostermeir molds were finally purchased as I understand by a builder in Germany after many month in litigation. There is a guy called John Steel that is a builder of the Porsche speedster in West Hollywood.The name of his company JPS Motorsports.www.jps-motorsports.com. He may know how to contact this person.

GOOD LUCK

REDSIL

Does anybody know what happened to IFG, 15740 El Prado Rd., Chino, Ca. 91710, (909) 597-4110? I have a packet of literature from them (maybe 10 years old) with what looks like a beautiful body/chassis kit.

Also, Classics International made a kit called the Silver Arrow Gull-Wing, body/chassis kits for $18,540.They were at 423 So. 10th St., Fargo, N.D. 58103, (701)239-8227. Also about 10 years old. Also 1-800-927-8229. What happened to these guys and their molds?

CustomVW

Do you have pics of your progress?

quote:I can add a little more to the discussion as I continue to do my research.A) There was a company in Gardena California that was making kits. I was told it was run by a Tony Ostermeir and that he sold everything or that his investors took all the assets. It would be nice to locate him as I am in need of parts like door hinges, latches, turn indicators, cowl grill etc.

B)Thoroughbred motors in Mt Dora Florida makes the 300SLR kits. There are starting to ramp up for the 300SL however to date they have yet to fabricate some of the items listed above. (I bought my kit from them)

C)Hermann Quint has been making turnkey 300SL for years. He originally used Corvette frames but now uses his own steel frames with a great deal of Mercedes parts (non 300SL parts). I have spoken to him several times and he claims his machines are indistinquishable from original. However that is an overstatemnet. He uses mercedes V-8 motors, automatic transmissions, AC and other goodies. He may do a great job but......

D)Lone Star in texas makes a roadster. No one answers their phone or E-mail

E)Scheib in Germany makes a roadster. Their web site is in German

gullwing

I have one picture stored on my lap-top but it is a real early picture. I will see if I can get a more recent picture. For any of you out there considering a Gullwing replica a little advice. The fiberglass body and a tube frame are the easy part. There are essentially no 300SL spare parts in existance and their is no repro industry. So every little piece becomes a challange and an expensive one at that. So of the 190SL parts will fit. For instance the grill is identical and for $7,500 you can buy one from autohaus. Same for the bumpers (I think) and these are available for about $2,500 each.So we are not dealing with the Cobra replica industry where there are numerous sources of good quality inexpensive parts. For instance for the door hinges I may end up using a set from a Bricklin.

Dr. John

I found the Gullwings in 1960. In 1961, I rode in a Gullwing. In 1974, I just got married, and I found a 1956 Gullwing (in Mt. View, CA) in a dealer lot. I sat in the car and he wanted $4,500 for the car. I did not buy it !!!! and 6-months later...I was divorced. I should have married the CAR and NOT the lady.

In the 1985, I found a REAL RED Gullwing in San Mateo, CA. AWESOME. I have pictures of me and the car.

In 2003, I saw a red Gullwing (replica) in the KIT CAR mag. that was sold in Florida (at a replica dealer store) it looked GREAT. Maybe someone remembers the car/dealer in Florida. Whoever made it/sold may know about 'nother Gullwings. Please keep me informed. Thanks to all. Dr. John

Dr. John

I found the Gullwings in 1960. In 1961, I rode in a Gullwing. In 1974, I just got married, and I found a 1956 Gullwing (in Mt. View, CA) in a dealer lot. I sat in the car and he wanted $4,500 for the car. I did not buy it !!!! and 6-months later...I was divorced. I should have married the CAR and NOT the lady.

In the 1985, I found a REAL RED Gullwing in San Mateo, CA. AWESOME. I have pictures of me and the car.

In 2003, I saw a red Gullwing (replica) in the KIT CAR mag. that was sold in Florida (at a replica dealer store) it looked GREAT. Maybe someone remembers the car/dealer in Florida. Whoever made it/sold may know about 'nother Gullwings. Please keep me informed. Thanks to all. Dr. John

Dr. John

I found the Gullwings in 1960. In 1961, I rode in a Gullwing. In 1974, I just got married, and I found a 1956 Gullwing (in Mt. View, CA) in a dealer lot. I sat in the car and he wanted $4,500 for the car. I did not buy it !!!! and 6-months later...I was divorced. I should have married the CAR and NOT the lady.

In the 1985, I found a REAL RED Gullwing in San Mateo, CA. AWESOME. I have pictures of me and the car.

In 2003, I saw a red Gullwing (replica) in the KIT CAR mag. that was sold in Florida (at a replica dealer store) it looked GREAT. Maybe someone remembers the car/dealer in Florida. Whoever made it/sold may know about 'nother Gullwings. Please keep me informed. Thanks to all. Dr. John

gullwing

I have access to my lap top again so if someone can tell me how to add a picture I will send the one picture which I presently have. I had sent a copy directly to Jay Sherman and if need be can send it to other. I am using one of Gil Loneckers fiberglass bodies and steel frames. I have a 5.0 liter Ford motor from a wrecked 1988 GT mustang. It is mated to a Tremac 5 speed. I have modified the frame and installed a Ford IRS unit from a Supercoupe. The front uses Mustang II components. I went with a power steering rack. If you combine that with the serpentine belts of the later motor there is precious pulley clearnce. I changed the front discs to 11" Granada (from the 9" Mustang II) and have 10.5" discs in the rear. I would like to go with 13" front and 12" rear but I am not yet sure how much I can fit behind a 16" steel wheel. I also have yet to figure out the wheel offsets. At present I have a bunch or 15"junkyard wheels and tires. I have the 5 X 4.5 pattern in front and 5 X 4.25 in rear. I have located a shop that specializes in redrilling the rears. It is on my to do list. I found a 190SL grill for $750. It needs replating and is missing the lateral bars but still I am real excited to find one for that pprice. I had purchased a 230SL grill and was going to make it fit but now I don't have to. Anyone know where I can get a set of 190SL lateral grill bars cheap?

Kasey

I would like to warn everyone out there not to do busines with Thoroughbred Coach Builders. I finally received my body and chassis, but none of the other parts I paid for. I have made repeated attempts to contact them and once I even got Gil Longnecker on the phone and when I said who I was, he hung up and there was no answer the rest of the day when I attempted to call back. I am out thousands of dollars and it's been a year and I now have a body and chassis in the garage that I am probably going to have to sell...If I can find buyer, that is..I did research on Thoroughbred and I found that this is status quo for them, I even found some people involved in a class action suit against them...Kasey

gullwing

Kasey,

What type of kit did you buy from Thoroughbred motors? E-mail me privately. We need to compare notes.

I lived about 20 mins. from Gil Longnecker for years. I've been to Thoroughbred's facility a few times, and he brought some of his demo cars to the local shows. Interestingly enough, if you check Bob's Classics website of recent sales, all of Gil's demo cars have been dumped on him and since sold.

BTW - someone mentioned the red Gullwing. That one went through Bob as well. It was on a shortened C3/Midyear corvette chassis. According to Bob, it went for about $65K to someone in California.

Bob Chambers

I keep reading bad things about Thoroughbred Coach Builders. Does anyone out there have anything good to report? Does anyone have a 300SLR kit that was delivered as promised and going together well? I'm particularly interested in using an MB inline 6 cylinder engine and primarily MB components.

nicolas

Can somebody tell me how much the 300sl kit car cost and does somebody know a kit car builder who makes the 300sl roadster and if somebody bought such kit.

thanks

gullwing

I can send you the price list for the 300SL Gullwing if you like. It starts out at about $15,000 but if you buy most of the components needed to finish it more like $22,000. Those parts are the real problem as you can't really build the gullwing without the windshield and rear window. Yes you can try to fabricate a lot of the parts and a lot of parts can be bought from 190SL suppliers but it starts getting pricey fast. What I am hoping is that someone out there will step up, step in and start making gullwing replicas. There is a huge market and now there are at least a few replicas that someone can pull molds from. The problem in the past was to find someone with a $250 300SL that was willing to completely disassemble it to allow you to pull a mold.

grotius

Someone interested in a ready to drive 300SL Gullwing from Gullwing Cars?

Car is finished in grey-blue metallic with light grey leather interior. Engine is a M110 with double camshaft and Bosch K-Jetronic fuel injection. Coupled at the engine is a fourspeed stickshift from Mercedes-Benz.

Car has only done a near 10.000 miles and is in a immaculate condition. It is at the moment for sale in Europe.

I found an other gullwing replica builder. He's in the UK and the website is www.hooperandco.comPrice? does not fit my budget.But the pictures are interested for those who are building one. especialy the chassis.

Where can I find parts for interior and exterior for a gullwing or roadster? thanks for the help

gullwing

Did you contact anyone from Hooper & Co.? Sounds like they only sell rolling chasis like Herman Quint in Conn. Maybe they will share information as to their source for parts. They say they get their glass from the original supplier in Germany. That is interesting because that has been a problem with the other kits.There is a Mercedes resources center in Stuttgart Germany that claims to have or can "remanufacture from the original blueprints" most any part for any early Mercedes. I haven't contacted them yet but I am told that if you have to ask the cost then you caan't afford the part!

nicolas

Can interior parts for a roadster be used from the mercedes sl pagode (113 series)?

jaysherman

I had heard that this was the company that got the remains of Tony Austomeyer's company in California. Lone Star Classics makes a Roadster 300sl. They are in Texas. I recently visited the shop. Did not get to see the 300sl but saw a nice corvette.

nicolas

The lone star classis 300sl is not what I'm looking for and they use no original or reproduction parts. Their kit looks ugly. I'm looking for something that's for visual 95% close to original, appart from engine and suspension. For somebody who looks for original bumpers (front and rear). Look at ebay in Germany. Only 800 Euro

bmcclean

I am looking for a Gullwing and as I am in Engalnd Europe is better than the USA.

Can you let me know more about it.

quote:Someone interested in a ready to drive 300SL Gullwing from Gullwing Cars?

Car is finished in grey-blue metallic with light grey leather interior. Engine is a M110 with double camshaft and Bosch K-Jetronic fuel injection. Coupled at the engine is a fourspeed stickshift from Mercedes-Benz.

Car has only done a near 10.000 miles and is in a immaculate condition. It is at the moment for sale in Europe.

nicolas

Hello,

I have contacted the seller and the price is only 129,000 Eurosand it is in Holland right now.Included 2 nice pieces of luggage.It does not fit my budget! yours?

Matt_Mazza

Hello Everybody,

My brother John and I recently purchased a Mercedes 300SL Gullwing replica business from Hermann Quint. As you may know, Hermann built a first-generation replica from an original Mercedes 300SL and built 30 cars in the late 70's / early 80's. We plan to create these cars with the same enthusiasm and commitment to quality that were Hermann's trademarks. He will also be helping us build the first cars.

I have talked to John Mazza from Wingmotors for a Gullwing replicaI think I am going to trust the 2 brothers to built me a car,I have the impresion they want to star good.

Mario

Mario Sueiras

james

hello,

if you need some parts for your 300 sl, just have a look atwww.niemoeller.dethe make almost everything for the 300 sl and other MB classics.

@seagull: i thought that keinle does only restoration, anyhow niemoeller is here in germany the common spareparts seller.

bye james.

marc f.

i am only replying to this subject cuz i couldn't find the right one, and it gets the most hits. so, my questions is does anyone know if somewhere there is a company that manufactures either production of specialty cars of the 1995 ford gt90 concept or the 1996 ford indigo concept. thank you

mikedellavalle

I have seen Hermann Quint's Gullwings and they are the finest made. If you are looking to purchase a Gullwing, you should go to this guy. His work is unbelievable.

james

Hello,

can somebody tell me, if there is a company who makes repro/replica parts for the 300sl Gullwing?

bye James.

jaysherman

There are several but all are very expensive! There are also a couple of 190 parts places , but only a few of the parts will work. Ebay also but none are cheap! Write if you find affordable parts!

Sorry for the reply to the older thread, but I can't seem to find a current thread on this topic. Any who, I have been searching for a 300sl gullwing Mercedes kit... I know of a pretty nice one from Lonestar Classics here in the Dallas area (where I live), but it is a roadster. I saw the thread from the m-wingmotors.com guys, but it seems a little strange that they don't have a phone number on their page.

So I guess I have two questions, are they legit, and has anyone purchased from them

Thanks!!Clint

jaysherman

I believe that the Mazza Brothers are only selling complete cars. The only kit for the Gullwing is still just Throughbred Coach Builders. There are three of us with them now that are building the kit. Myself, Gullwing, and James. Gullwing would be good to contact for info, James is just getting his kit.

Matt_Mazza

Hello Everybody,

This is Matt Mazza from M-Wing Motors. Just wanted to let you know that we are indeed legit. We are currently in the process of refining the body and tube chassis and will have a body on chassis in a few months. We have made several changes in our build strategy in the past few months, including:

Our website is therefore slightly out-of-date but we will be updating it soon. FYI, our production facility is outside of Philadelphia in Kutztown, Pennsylvania. Also, we are currently focusing on turkey cars but expect to offer kits in the future (difficult to predict exact timeframe at this time.)

Thanks for your interest and feel free to E-mail directly with any specific questions.

Hey Jaysherman, thanks for the info, I am just a little nervous about the negative comments in the forums that I have read about TB.

Do you or Gullwing have any picts of your kits/work so far? and James, I'd be really interested in hearing about your experience with a long distance purchase from TB since (I think you said that) you are from Germany. TB seems to have more bad coments than good ones, I don't know them at all so I just need to go by what I read.

Thanks all!!CM

jaysherman

I am in Northern California and picked up my kit from a second party. Greg would be good to talk to and is in Georgia. James should get his kit anyday and is also back east. Email me at jaysherman54@hotmail.com and I will forward your info on to Greg. You can call me as well if you want. I have some pictures of the kit that I will email you. I am still gathering parts and doing body work. Greg is pretty far along and has solved a lot of the problems. Building the kit would be easier if you could just buy all the other parts needed but that is VERY expensive! The parts are available, just $$$.

jaysherman

Correction: Jerry not James....

cmcompto

quote:Hello,

We have posted more detailed photos of the M-Wing Motors gullwing replica. Please check this link:

Just following up on this thread; if this is a new vehicle why does the odometer appear to read 79,154 miles/Km (enlarged it in Photoshop to see more clearly)? Not saying anyone is a scammer but the pictures aren't really doing it for me yet...

What would be more convincing are more picts of a car in multiple phases of production/completion...all we see are a couple of shells in one pic, chssis picts and 300SLs in anothers...so when you update your site, those kind of pictures would be great.

Keep the info coming Matt.

CM

cmcompto

Hi Matt:

Sorry for being the hard a** but I have read so many stories of people being burned and there are too many operations that came and went in VERY short while, so I am just being verrrrrrry cautious (did I say very yet?).

Thanks for taking the beating; keep the info coming and the more pictures, info, videoed testimonials , the better.

cm

Matt_Mazza

Hello CM,

No problem - we are well aware of the scammers out there and we are taking our time to do this right. We will definitely have more pictures to show of the work in progress.

Some background on the photos currently on the site: these are cars built by Hermann Quint. We purchased the business from Hermann and have been building the car from his design, using the molds and plans we purchased. We have also been making some modifications along the way, which I mentioned in my previous posting.

Stay tuned and thanks for the questions. We are glad to hear from you.

- Matt

cmcompto

Cool Matt...

I'll have both eyes and ears open.

CM

johnm

Hello, this is John Mazza. As Matt said, we have been going through some changes on the body and chassis. I can understand the cautious optimism approach, as I would do the same thing. Sure, we thought we'd be farther along by now...but we decided that making the investment in dollars and time now will make the product better immediately. Our focus is on quality. We'll post some progress pictures of the new body and the chassis construction real soon. Thanks for keeping the pressure on, we know there are a lot of people waiting to see our finished product.

Crotty

I am new to this site and thread, so I apologize if I'm redundant in my posting here.

I believe that the Ostermeyer molds and tooling were sold to Hooper and Company (of the Rolls Royce/Bentley fame). Their direct website is down, so I'm assuming they are no longer in business. The photos that they did have of their reproduction Gullwing were all from Ostermeyer's website/brochures. But you can find what was their site here:

It would seem that there should be a way of creating the molds and tooling for the various Gullwing specific parts (glass, brightwork, switches, etc) so that, as with the Ostermeyer cars, the parts are interchangeable with the real cars. While expensive to do, one would certainly have more of a market than just the kit builders to recoup costs.

Is this what the Brothers Mazza are planning to do? Additionally, will they offer the option of running a Mercedes engine in their cars? It would be nice to have a Gullwing that looks AND sounds like a Mercedes.

Thanks for all the VERY informative posts...

Robert

cmcompto

Matt and John frequent this forum every few days, so they would be the best to ask. We're all hoping that they are going to do something big!

Stay tuned and they can answer you question.

CM

jaysherman

Why reinvent the wheel...Tony already had these parts made, just need to find out where and make a large enough order. I assume that they are still available because Hooper was using them unless they where working off of back stock. I believe that Tony sold off most of the stock though. Considering the cost of reproduction if you had one of each part China would provide the best bang for your buck. I found the glass and purchased a complete set. I understand that it is all gone now. Nothing that money will not solve...

Crotty

I hear from Legends in the UK that Hooper may be in the process of "being reformed in the Emirates". Who knows what that means for the Gullwings. And since there is a universal demand for parts, if one could not track down Ostermeyer's stock or the companies that created it for him, somebody might have to take matters into their own hands.

I see there being a couple of solutions - of course both are just a matter of money. As I've never built a kit car before, please tell me if I'm failing to consider anything here:

1.) Somebody (and I'm including myself in this) buys an Ostermeyer or real Gullwing and disassembles the essential parts to have the molds and dies made to start reproducing parts. Biggest complication to this is finding the right company in the right country to do it, and executing the reproductions with enough quality that the real gullwing shops will purchase stock from you. At the same time, parts would need to be priced in a way that the kit builders would be able to buy as well. Another consideration is whether or not Mercedes Benz would squash you for getting in the way of their parts business - if there is such a thing for the Gullwings.

2.) It looks like from the Mazza's photos, that they're using 190SL parts - switches, headlights, etc. I think this is a pretty good idea. If a kit builder were to purchase a derilict 190SL for $15K, what would prevent him/her from pulling the instruments, switches, bright work, various useable systems (if any) AND the transmission tunnel & VIN tag and then register the finished car as a rebodied 190SL? You could sell the rest of the 190 back to a parts facility to recoup some expenses and have a good deal of parts to use to build the gullwing. Would the switches, instruments, front bumper and grill (bumper and grill is interchangeable, right?) worth the expense? Additionally, would the VIN & registration be worth buying a whole 190SL? I know for what it takes to get a speciality car registered in CA, it might be (ignoring for a moment that you'd be destroying a classic car).

Any input would be appreciated as I consider the cost (and excuse) to purchase a real Gullwing to do something along these lines for a business. I'd happily defer to the Mazzas if they're already doing it.

jaysherman

190 is only good for a few parts, you will really need a 300sl to copy parts. door latches, hinges, and handles, window frames parts and all weather stripping trim (the window trim rubber is 400 per side)rubber trim, wind-wing parts, tail lights, lots of dash parts, folding steering wheel mech, interior mirror, glass, MB side emblems, side trim molding, trunk emblem 300sl, luggage hoop, etc. The 190 is good for grill, headlight bezels, bumpers, trunk hinges (depending on how the body is molded), hood hinges, maybe latches. The hood and trunk emblems and side mirrors are available. I am sure I am forgetting some but this is a good start....

Matt_Mazza

Hello Everybody,

Yes, parts are absolutely a critical part of making this happen. Without getting into detail, we do have a variety of sources for parts, including manufacturing some ourselves. It is also true that only a few of the 190 parts can be used. (Very thorough list you have, Jay!) We are not using parts from derelict cars, for reasons that were mentioned in Mr. Crotty's thread.

A bit of background: Hermann Quint began his business by purchasing a real 300SL and reverse-engineered his car from there. As I mentioned, we are using the molds, patterns and plans from his business as the basis for our cars. Our cars will be registered as specialty cars in Pennsylvania.

Hope this answers your questions. Thanks.

- Matt

gullwing

As I have been working on my kit for about 18 months now let me give you some observations. Although it might seem to be the hardest part the frame and body are actually the easiest part. You do need a donor Gullwing and it is a lot of hard work but once done you can sell a frame and body for about $20,000. The truly difficult part is all of the specialized Gullwing parts. Where will you get the glass? Neomoeller's or Mercedes Resource Center will supply this but the price is huge. Say $5,000 for a windshield. There are 8 pieces of glass to buy. You can not make the glass yourself so you either pay huge amounts of money, make them out of Lexan or contract to have a run of original glass made. Tony Ostermeir had Pilkington glass make a run. I don't know the particulars but I think it was 100 sets (minimum). Tony bought 30 sets which he used and Pilkington sat on the rest. They stored them for 10 years then trashed most of them as they were simply in the way and did not sell.The rear bumpers- Toney had them made in Taiwan or somewhere. There are something like 5 pieces. So he probably had $20,000 tied up in the molds. The list goes on and on. If you think you can make 100 rear bumpers and re-coupe your cost MAYBE. You would need a market though. The 1,200 original Gullwings out there mostly have bumpers or they will pay Meercedes Resource Center to build them a certified exact replacement for $10,000. So you need a growing kit car market to create a demand. The kit car market is stymied by the lack of good quality replacement parts for at a reasonable price. So, it is a catch 22. If several people jumped into the buisness then in my humble opinion the Gullwing could be as popular as the Cobra. You can build a nice Cobra for $25-30K. At this time I doubt that you could build a nice Gullwing for $60K.I have spoken with Hermann Quint many times. He was able to do it. His car were beautiful. What many of you don't know is that he made almost 30 and that they evolved over the years. They started out as cut down Corvettes. Later he used Mercedes V-8 drive trains on a custom frame. They looked gorgeous no question about it. But exact replicas they weren't. Can you tell me what rear windows he used or what side window? I know and he was quite ingenious. Did you know that the vent window gasket is available from Mercedes but cost $900 each! Most of us cant afford that.As far as the orignal valve train?Does a modern Mercedes V-8 sound even remotely like a straight 6 mechanically fuel injected 198 engine? The closest engine I could thing would be a early jag straight six or a 240Z. I have seen Chrysler slant six used used. Does anyon think these look, sound or drive like an OHC Mercedes motor? Most if not all of Hermans cars were automatic transmission.It is apparently what sells best. Not my cup of tea.

Toney's parts are tied up in bancruptcy (again) this time in the island of Jersey off the English coast. So we can't expect much help there.The Mazza Brothers, God bless them, have great intentions and I am sure are honorable people. However they are still bogged down in the body/frame part of the build. I have not heard what they intend to do for door latches, door hinges, trunk latches, grills, side molding, dash molding etc., etc. Their web sight is truly impressive. They make it clear that they are building their first wo cars now however it isn't apparent to the viewer which photos theyy are showing are from an original Gullwing and which are from someone elses reproduction.Yes there are a few 190SL parts that can be used. I have a list for anyone interested. A good quality 190SL grill goes for $2,000 but at 20 feet you can tell it is not from a 300SL. That is but one example.

In order for someone to succed in the Gullwing replica buisness they will need a lot of financing and a really well thought out buisness plan. Even Tony Ostermeir despite his long success ran out of capital at some point.Starting out with a kit car would allow you to recoupe some of your investment as you went along. The only person doing that is Gil Lonecker. He unfortunately is undercapitalized and I would not even want to comment on his buisness plan on a public forum. He has however succeeded in destroying any credibility he has which I find terribly sad.

Greg

james

Hello Greg,

Where Do you buy a windshield for $ 5.000? If you can get a GW windshield for 525,- ā¬ + shipping (from Berlin to the States) + tax.

Nice parts site. Do not forget almost $1,000us for gasket and trim....Check out the cost of outfitting a door with glass, gaskets, door latch hardware, window frames, hinges, springs, and latches....Parts cont: The 190sl front parking lights can be used also. The air intake vent demister grill from a 300sl will need to be copied.

johnm

All:

I'll let Matt continue to answer the specific parts questions/thoughts/ideas. We appreciate the benefit of the doubt displayed in this forum. Yes, we are keenly aware of the obstacles and do have plans to make sure we have a solid product. We have asked ourselves, Hermann, and other industry veterans all the questions raised in this forum. The challenges of making parts have changed dramatically in the last 10 years and we intend on utlizing as much of the new technologies to help us. We want to do this right the first time, not have a progression of quality increases. We will be concentrating on turnkeys (for many reasons), potentially offering kits by mid 2006. I'm not sure how the economics of the kits will turn out, as we need to get the first cars done and make an assessment at that time. My belief is that whatever the parts, bodies, and chassis costs become there will significant sweat equity achieved (by a kit purchaser) due to the turnkey value.

Crotty

John or Matt,

Are you able at this time to give us a ball park figure for your turnkey cars? I understand if you're not ready to do this yet. Assuming your production cars will be similar in quality to the Ostermeyer cars, it would be good to know what one could expect to spend.

Thanks,

Robert

johnm

We've been telling prospective buyers that we will be starting at $99,000 for turnkeys with the basic engine, etc. While the market on these particular replicas has been from $89,000 to a high this year of $264,400 at Barrett-Jackson........we believe the market to be approx $125,000 for a quality replica. So, why would we be at $99,000 today? Because we haven't built one of our own yet. Sure, we have Hermann's but until we establish our quality, etc. someone will have to make a leap of faith with us. If we build the first one and don't have a buyer for it, we'll be looking at the $125,000 area.

gullwing

While I realize the M-Wing motors is not in the kit car buisness nor in the kit car parts buisness. It seems like the question of parts has been asked on this forum several times and has been dodged several times. If you plan on having a finished product in 8 months I would assume that you either a)have a manufacturer who has already made the molds b)are making molds now or c)plan on doing so real soon. I know you can't be buying NOS parts as they are hugely expensive as are the currently available reproduction parts. I would think telling us how you have solved the parts problems would add a lot to the credibility to your efforts and be hugely helpful for your sales. So let me ask about one specific part as an example: The side molding. Do plan on making them? Are you going to have them whittled out of billet on a CNC which would be hugely expensive? are you going to have the molds made and have them stamped? or are you going to do as Gil Lonecker proposes and that is take a piece of Mylar and glue it on? If you intend to go through the expense of a) writing a CAD program or b) making the mold why not advertise that that they will be available soon. Their are at least two kit car guys who are interested in buying a set. (I already have mine)Wouldn't making and selling 4 sets off-set the cost involved to M-wing? I would assume that you plan on making several cars so I would think your plans would be to make 10 sets minimum as an initial run.

gullwing

James, I apologize. I gave you a shoot from the hip estimate and I was off. Possibly I got that number from another supplier

however at HK engineering I found the following prices:

Windshield complete- $1,400Rear Window complete- $1,800opera window complete is $1,100 eachI couldn't get the numbers on the vent and door windows as not all of the parts are listed (unavailable?)

so thats $5,400 for 4 of the 8 windows lets just approximate another $5,00 for the other ones. $10,000 is about about 10% of the finished value. I can buy a body for about $10,000 or a frame for about $10,000. It like the old saying about the monkey who peed in the cash register "it starts to run into money"

jaysherman

Greg's right, when you start to price out the door glass, frames and latches, gaskets, and hardware for the handles, hold on to you wallet....

Matt_Mazza

Hello Everybody,

Sorry if it seems like we're dodging parts questions, but in reality this is not the case. As you know, there is very little competition in the Gullwing replica market, but it IS out there. We are protecting our business interests by not naming all of our suppliers. We do have sources for ALL of the parts and they fall into the following categories:

- Major vendors of Gullwing parts, including HK Engineering and others- Smaller vendors who are not currently prepared to make parts in quantity- Local manufacturers, but currently small batches and nothing automated yet

As you mentioned, we're not ready to make kits or parts for these cars yet, but it's in the plan. Our current focus is to complete the first few cars, which will allow us to refine our processes. It would be great if we were in a position to sell parts, but we're just not ready yet. The CAD and CNC will come later. If we promised to deliver parts now, that would actually hurt our credibility since we can't deliver at this time.

I can also assure you that we won't be substituting cheap or flimsy parts: no Mylar strips and no fiberglass bumpers with chrome spray. We will be as authentic as possible where it makes sense and update where that makes sense. (An example: the originals used spring shocks to raise the doors. We are using gas shocks that look like the originalbut provide more even and reliable lifting pressure)

We certainly understand the skepticism and we recommend that you take a "wait and see" approach with us as well. Thanks.

- Matt

jaysherman

Be careful with the gas struts, they can apply a lot of single point pressure when closed and especially when hot and cause the door to lift at the attachment point. I use them on my Cobra hood with a metal hoop and see the hood lift slightly in the hot sun. Without the hoop it would be worse. This is something I am thinking about and trying to use the original spring type. I am also going to put a small metal hoop in the door for strength without over-weighting it, I hope. Lot's of things to consider when building especially when you have to think it out to the end, upholstery and carpet. Are we having fun yet? Thanks for the info Matt, many heads are better than one.

gullwing

okay, Matt so I infer from your answer that your not about to divulge whether the side moldings will be cast, machined or stamped. Is this true for potential buyers or just this forum?

Reguarding the Nitrogen gas struts. I put them on my car. It took me about 5 trips to NAPA to get it right. Its hard to do with an unfinished door as the weigth factor is important. They work well and can be easily covered with tube to make them look more original. The thing I didn't like was the black plastic mounting points on the end. Not very period or "teutonic" if you know what I mean. I replaced them with chromed heim joints I got from a Harley shop. Untimately I removed the rear struts and installed 7/8" stainless steel pnuematic cylinders. I was a lot of work but fun too. Now the doors open and close at the touch of a button.

jaysherman

West Marine makes some real nice stainless steel gas struts that would look nicer than the typical black.

SwissRacer

quote:Someone interested in a ready to drive 300SL Gullwing from Gullwing Cars?

Car is finished in grey-blue metallic with light grey leather interior. Engine is a M110 with double camshaft and Bosch K-Jetronic fuel injection. Coupled at the engine is a fourspeed stickshift from Mercedes-Benz.

Car has only done a near 10.000 miles and is in a immaculate condition. It is at the moment for sale in Europe.

SwissRacer

I am interested. Where can this be viewed in Europe? Is it street legal in Europe? Price?

Thanks!

quote:Someone interested in a ready to drive 300SL Gullwing from Gullwing Cars?

Car is finished in grey-blue metallic with light grey leather interior. Engine is a M110 with double camshaft and Bosch K-Jetronic fuel injection. Coupled at the engine is a fourspeed stickshift from Mercedes-Benz.

Car has only done a near 10.000 miles and is in a immaculate condition. It is at the moment for sale in Europe.

CustomVW

So is Thouroghbred still selling kits or rather chassis?

CustomVW

Have any of you considered modifing a 190 sl into a gullwing with metal work and doors form a kit (assuming you can get them)? I mean other than the roof and side panels it would be a lot less involved and expensive than sourcing all of the missing parts from these "kits" wouldn't it? plus it would be almost all MB and be registerable easily... These are esentialy the same wheel base and all as far as I know.

james

Hello Custom VW,

have a look at these picĀ“s.300 sl Rodster build on a Pagode.

Bye James.

CustomVW

Hello James,

What is a Pagode in the US? a 230sl/280sl?

quote:Hello Custom VW,

have a look at these picĀ“s.300 sl Rodster build on a Pagode.

Bye James.

james

Hello Custom VW,

upss how come you donĀ“t know the synonym of a 230 SL = Pagode?Well anyhow see below. :-)

Bye James.

gullwing

Well if you want to build a 300SL roadster from a Mercedes you can do as Hooper does, that is, use a Mercedes SLK

Greg

jaysherman

Any new news on Hooper and Company, Mazza's, or anybody else building Gullwings?

Matt_Mazza

Hello Everybody,

The forum has been quiet lately but we have been busy. We are still refining the body and chassis and expect to have a body on chassis in March. The R&D has taken longer than expected, but that's par for the course for this business.

Thanks for you interest and patience and stay tuned. I will post an update when we reach our next milestone.

- Matt

johnm

Jay, et al:

Matt has put it properly, we have been overwhelmed by the interest in our project. We, as we have said here, are as passionate about this car as anyone. We want to make sure that our recreation is something we can be proud of, something that makes us stand back and stare....just as we all have at the sight of an original.

That being said, we have gone through a painstaking process of making sure that all meets, and exceeds, expectations. Sure, we would have loved to have had a car done by now....but we've been open with all who have asked to visit and see where we are in the process. Those that have visited and spent time with us realize we are doing the right thing, the right process, and will be delivering a product that will speak for itself.

So, hang in there....we're almost there...and thanks for the interest!

John

gullwing

Since you guys at M-Wing are almost there as you say. Perhaps you would be willing to tell us if you intend to create an accurate reproduction or simply a re-creation? Specifically, will the side glass be curved as in the original Gullwing or do you intend to use flat glass or Plexiglass? Will the vent window open and the side windows be reovable as in the original or have you decided it isn't necessary in an air conditioned car? Since you intend to use a V-8 will it have dual exhast or single like the original? Will the cowel duct and roof vent be functional as in the original or faux? Surely by this point you have decided. I can't imagine why you would not be willing to share these details with this forum. Yes, there is considerable interest in your Gullwing project. Many have tried to recreate these cars most have failed. What can you tell us that would make us want to hand you a $20,000 deposit?

Matt_Mazza

Hello Gullwing,

First things first: our overall design philosophy is to create a world-class replica (or re-creation if you prefer), not an accurate reproduction. We are keeping the timeless style of this car while updating the performance, reliability and comfort of this car. The car will look like the original from the outside and also from the passenger compartment (with some exceptions).

Now onto your specific questions:

Glass: all windows will be glass in the same shape as the original. The vent windows will be functional and the side glass will be removable. Air conditioning will be standard equipment for days when the fresh air is not enough.

Exhaust: Single exhaust is standard, dual exhaust will be available as an option.

Heating, ventilation and A/C: the cowl duct will be functional as a source of air for HVAC. The rear roof vents will appear to be open but sealed with plexiglass.

We are well aware of the companies that have failed and that is why we have taken our time to get it right. Our progress will be evident in the upcoming weeks, so stay tuned. Thanks again for you patience and interest.

- Matt

jaysherman

I have been reluctant to cut out the roof vents, hate to put a hole in the roof. Interesting idea about using plexiglass. I was thinking about cutting them out but building a fiberglass box to add depth without actually making them functional or open to the cabin.

johnm

Jay, just to be clear....our cars will have the depth (or cavity) for the vents. We will actually have them open....but put plexiglass in if you choose to do so. Obviously if you want to run air conditioning you'll put the plexiglass in.

krazeyone

where is this so-called gullwing replica, i think Matt is blowing smoke up everybodys poo-poo. his site has the same pics it did months ago. i'm not saying that your not trying Matt, but at least be honest. the only thing that you have is a body, GLASS, and a frame? i'd like to know what good is the glass if you can't open the doors. lol!

johnm

We've been upfront throughout the process. Yes, it is taking longer than we expected, or wanted. If you'd like to discuss our project in detail I'd be glad to talk to you. You're free to come visit the facilities and see the progess for yourself, I look forward to meeting you.

John

CustomVW

Anyone selling a partial or compete Gullwing I could buy today?

james

Hello everybody,

I heard that Tony Ostermeier passed away.My thoughts are with his family, and everyone who knew him.Thank you for the woderful 300 SL GW/Roadster replica.

Bye James.

krazeyone

cars are coming soon!

krazeyone

anybody interested in some pics of the car let me know. i can't figgure out how to get a pic on this page, driving me nuts! the body is in the final stages, and is almost ready for making new molds. i also have pics of the tubular frame. frame is derived from blueprints of actual gullwing frameframe is designed to adapt any motor/trans combo, and front and rear suspension of your choice. and i know what the next question is, what about hardware????????? door hinges ,trunk hinge, hood hinge ,glass??? well, yes i have it all, no bull! no smoke and mirrors here. i'm going to sell a kit that will fit together and all parts will be available. and i will try to be ready for carlile kit car show next month. if there is any questions please e-mail me. i will be more than happy to answer any questions. or even if you want to come on down to check me out if you think i'm B.S., i will be even more happy to show you in person! thanks, Big Al

enzo

Hello everybody,iĀ“ve read this threads with great enthusiasm since iĀ“m a mercedes fan and want to make a Gullwing Replica.

IĀ“ll tell you a bit of myself, nowadays i own my family business in chile, south-america.WeĀ“ve been making plastic toys for 40 years or so and iĀ“m the third generation in the business, i have a complete factory with all processes to mould up plastic goods, also have the machines to make such moulds. for instance, i make the traffic lights of the streets of many cities in my country. In past years weĀ“ve exporting to europe, the states and our goods sold well at toysĀ“rĀ“us many years.

Well, iĀ“m telling this because i want to picture the technical skills of my company.In this months iĀ“ve decided to make a Gullwing Replica and therefore have seen and gathered all the info i can, of course my country is tiny but there is a huge amount of mercedes since the 50Ā“s no gullwings thou. 2 of them were purchased recently by mercedes benz historical dealers in chile.In my country you can find all the mechanic parts and overhaul them perfectly with reasonable expense, also due to the moulds workshop i can make a lot of metalic parts with accuracy, quality and rather unexpensively. The hand labour is quite skillfull and materials such as leather and fine woods are unexpensive.In conclusion there are many things that makes this task possible, unfortunately the info to make this car is rather poor. The labour involved in making the gullwing is the same in order to make a perfect replica ro to make some modern recreation out of specs. Of course i want to make the nearest possible replica of this dream. IĀ“m asking for help because all details, from mask to steering wheel (complete), from door latches to handles, from leather interior to tubular frame are things that i can and will do. And perhaps there is a possible partner out there waiting to share or exchange knowledge for finished parts.Carry on with this art!!

quote:anybody interested in some pics of the car let me know. i can't figgure out how to get a pic on this page, driving me nuts! the body is in the final stages, and is almost ready for making new molds. i also have pics of the tubular frame. frame is derived from blueprints of actual gullwing frameframe is designed to adapt any motor/trans combo, and front and rear suspension of your choice. and i know what the next question is, what about hardware????????? door hinges ,trunk hinge, hood hinge ,glass??? well, yes i have it all, no bull! no smoke and mirrors here. i'm going to sell a kit that will fit together and all parts will be available. and i will try to be ready for carlile kit car show next month. if there is any questions please e-mail me. i will be more than happy to answer any questions. or even if you want to come on down to check me out if you think i'm B.S., i will be even more happy to show you in person! thanks, Big Al

Any pricing details on the car progressing in Germany? Will you provide turn-key cars as well as kits?

Nice work - thanks for posting the photos.

enzo

Thanks a lot, the pics are nice, is the dash almost complete?Is it glassfiber only?

Enzo

krazeyone

not in germany, that was just a goof. i'm in connecticut, lol. at this point i don't think i want to go the route in selling turnkey cars. at least not at this point in time. i really want this to be a quality kit. it's very labor intensive at this point getting the body perfect, so when i make kits it will fit together. i'm preparing the body so all the gaps will be perfect and i'm not thinking of selling you a kit all in pieces. all the body pannels such as doors hood trunk are inner and outer pieces. i want to laminate and possibly pre-hang the doors trunk and hood. so that i know when you get it, there is nothing that can come back and bite me in the butt. i really want people to be able to finnish it once they get it. that is the most important thing! it really is about quality not quantity.

krazeyone

to answer enzos question the dash will be fiberglass. it's a 2 piece dash, the face pannell will be removeable like the original, so you can work behind dash without removing it all.

enzo

Very interesting, please keep us informed and show us a lot of pictures. IĀ“ve just started this project, by the end of may i spect to have the structure made of wood, then iĀ“ll make this car in some fibres, also iĀ“ll be making it in aluminium (perhaps also frame)brEnzo

Enzo

krazeyone

your going to make it of wood? that sounds like alot of work! where do you start , what do you use for a model, thats going to be alot of man hours . well wish you the best of luck. i hope it all works out. maybe next time you come to visit the states on buisness. swing buy connecticut and maybe you can save yourself alot of time and aggrivation, and see what we got going on here. just some food for thaught?

manfred

Hi All you guys out there,

I CAN solve the mystery of the "Gullwing" project - it is now installed in an auto complex in Germany and being readied to be put back into production - both Gullwing and Roadster. All of the parts, tooling, part built cars, etc.,etc. have now been unpacked, sorted, logged and readied for production. The company involved have had a long and enviable history in the replica car industry [ 25 years ] and are one of Germany's major current manufacturers.

They have recently moved to a 5 acres site with all facilities on site to produce cars.

Go to www.gullwing.ch for more details. The site is available in both German and English.

Amongst the stock that was purchased are a number of part complete cars and body / chassis units. There is one Gullwing [ LHD ] and several Roadsters in LHD and RHD.

Initially ALL cars will be fitted with the latest Mercedes 300 / 320 motor /trans packages and will be built to current EU emmission and safety specs. Future plans call for optional Mercedes V8 power.

There are currently two demonstrator cars available for test drive - a RH drive Roadster and a LHD Gullwing.

Items that seem to be causing grief amongst would be replicators, glass, seals, and detail parts are obviously not so much of a cost problem in Germany, although the company will be manufacturing all of the essential parts in house or through their current suppliers.Primarily the car is aimed at the EU / UK market as they will ONLY be available as a high quality turnkey car - expect ex-works price to be in the region of 120K euros + taxes.The company has done a deal with a respected supplier of repro and NOS parts to supply them with items - so good is the quality / authenticity of the parts.The company will welcome visitors for a test drive session at their showrooms/works in Saxony.

However, if that is not convenient, the cars will be in the UK later in the year.

I will be happy to field any queries initially - their English is pretty good, but being UK born - mine is better!

ATB

Manfred

Manfred von Heyda

manfred

Hi Guys,Just read through ALL of the posts [ should have done that first I guess! ] and can tell you that the reports of Tony Ostermeier's death have been greatly exagerated! This seems to have stemmed from a malicious rumour put about last year by a certain gentleman with an axe to grind. Tony was alive and well [ and speaking to us! ] a month or so ago.

I have spoken with the current owners of the ex - Ostermeier project and I have been authorised to provide you with up to date information regarding the current status of the project and the manufacturing schedule. This information will be posted within the next 4-5 days.

However, I can at this stage divulge that 13 containers of parts, tooling, part completed cars, completed bodies and chassis, alloy/epoxy hybrid spray plant [ to produce the alloy skinned bodies ] have been unloaded at the impressive premises of FMS Heyda [ Germany ], and are currently undergoing a thorough check up prior to installing the prduction lines.

Although the company have legal title to the Hooper name, they feel that they have sufficient credibility in their own right and will drop any direct association with it.

The company is keen to hear from any current owners of the Gullwing cars and are in the process of forming a register. Incidentally, for the avoidance of future doubt - "Gullwing" is a registered company and marque name. They are also interested to hear from any previous agents or distributors that may have been in operation in the USA.

The thorny problem of whether or not to supply specialty parts to other end users is currently being discussed.

If someone can tip me the nod about posting pictures - I will do my best!

That's about it for now, I will post a fuller update in the next several days

ATB

Manfred

Manfred von Heyda

krazeyone

can you immagine all the red tape you would have to go through. the DMV would have a field day!all the shipping hastles to deal with, i have a migrane just thinking about it! everybody is all talk, untill we see solid proof that these guys are building these "gullwing project" cars, it's just talk! whats that saying.......? 0-ya "show me the money" LOL! what are you manfred the spokesperson? these guys don't sprekin se english? all i'm saying is that there are alot of dreamers out there, and only a handfull of people willing to go through what it takes to make a project like this to work. could you immagine how many cars they would have to sell in order to turn a profit? if they get up and running i give them 3 years before the doors get chained up. if somebody is backing them up with money , they are going to want to see returns on thier money.

manfred

Hi there Krazyeone - get out of bed the wrong side or something? You seem to be very bitter and twisted about something in your life.

Yes I am the spokesperson - or to put it more correctly the Agent for English speaking markets.

As to "sprekin se english" [ actually that's not German OR English - ahh - must be American ] - really, that kind of taunting went out with the Red Necks and their pick ups - didn't it? Actually Krazyone - judging by your own efforts in grammar and spelling, virtually ALL of the staff in Saxony could give you an English lesson.But that wasn't why I posted in the first place.

It was more of a courtesy posting to let people know the whereabouts and status of the original Gullwing project - since the question [ and rumours ] had been aired in open forum. Either those enquiries were - genuine, sarcastic, or a means of "ghosting up" interest in new projects. As I am not known as cynical person - I'll assume that they were genuine and as such demand a sensible and genuine response.

The other point of your post seems to be disbelief that anyone other than yourself is capable of creating / running such a project. Bad move my friend, because while you're getting your knickers in a twist over a product being made 3-5000 miles away - we are busy quietly preparing the cars. Also it's a very bad move to disparage a company that you know nothing of. Mohr has been in the auto business for 25 years and produces VERY high quality Cobras, Porsche T6 Roadsters and is just putting the finishing touches to their 550 Spyder and 904. Just as a matter of interest, the pictures that were shown of the semi prepared cars were taken in what - a barn?

Should you, or anyone of the same persuasion wish to - the factory and showrooms are permanently open to visitors and upon making an appointment you can DRIVE the Roadster demonstrator car[ RHD ] and the Gullwing [ LHD]. That's in REAL time right now. Whilst I realise that it's not exactly round the corner, should you find yourself in the UK, Mohr will provide you with a RyanAir return flight ticket [ London Stansted - to Saxony ] where you will be collected from the airport and driven to the works. That also goes for any potential US customers.

Of course there is more work entailed in importing cars to the USA, and to be honest - that is not our prime market. But as ALL of Mohr's products have to comply to VERY strict TUV EU approvals, I don't anticipate that the US market would be a problem.

The demonstrator cars are complete in every aspect and everything is correct and either made from the tooling and jigs that came with the project [ 13 containers ] or is being manufactured in Mohr's own facilities. They have their own GRP and steel fabrication plants, and have just installed state of the art spray and powder coating facilities. Apart from 2 complete demonstrators, there are 2 x RHD semi built cars, 5 LHD bodies and chassis'[ Roadsters] and 1 x LHD Gullwing. All are produced in the Aluminum/Epoxy Hybrid method - which again has been shipped to Saxony and is being installed in the next 6 weeks. Additionally there is sufficient stock - dashboards, bumpers [ steel chromed ], instruments, glass, etc.,etc. to make 12 cars right off the bat.

Apart from the logistical aspect of shipping, unpacking and sorting through 13 container's worth of project, there are certain aspects that require attention for the EU market. ALL items such as glass are either available in Germany at reasonable prices or will be made by Mohr's manufacturers [ including glass ] - and will be even more reasonable. Along with the other items that are being manufactured or retooled- all of the essential parts to complete the cars to a very high standard are readilly available. But then Krazyone, as you have no belief that Mohr has such a project or could remain in business for 3 years [ added to the 25 they have already been in business ]- I guess YOU won't want to be taking advantage of inexpensive quality repro items for your own project?

If someone is willing to either show me how - or alternatively post pictures via proxy, I will be MORE than happy to send the "proof" that you require - whether it's the 3000 sq.ft fully tiled, glass and stainless steel showroom, the 4,000 sq. ft of fully tiled, fully equiped workshops, new spray shop, etc.,etc.- Or the line up of 5 Roadster body / chassis units. Or the cars under future development with Mercedes V8 running gear. Just say the word Krazyone - how much proof would you like? Nevertheless - the sincere offer is there - if you would like to go and visit the workshops / showrooms just let me know and I'LL arrange it for you.

Finally, just so you have some idea of who I am - I've been in the specialty auto industry for 40 years and have been responsible for many designs and have indeed manufactured my own cars. I liaised with Carroll Shelby and RAM Automotive for 3 years whilst they were setting up the "Shelby Approval" of their RAM Cobra replica. In addition to Design / Marketing Consultancy for Mohr, I am currently retained in the same role for Realm Engineering's [ RAM ] Jaguar line of replicas - "C", "D" and XKSS. Please don't tell me you don't believe THEY exist.

ATB and "have a nice day"ManfredBTW - good luck with your own project.

Manfred von Heyda

krazeyone

i love getting people all worked up, LOL!

manfred

Uh,uh - I get it now Krazyone - you are what we call in England a "Wind up merchant" - that's "wind" as in turning a handle, not "wind" blowing across the desert.

And there was me thinking that you were perhaps a professional car designer / manufacturer.

Not sure what your customers expect in the USA, but here in Europe, our customers expect us manufacturers to act with a degree of decorum and professionalism.

However, for all your love of getting people "all worked up" - [ and personally your rantings don't concern me at all ]- you still have not commented on the core offer that was made specifically to you to view our project AND completed cars, either in the flesh [ "solid proof"] or in photos.

Oh yes, just to finalise a reply to your last posting - the answer about how many cars we need to sell to break even - it's six [ given that we're already in business]. And as for "somebody backing us", that's not necessary as I've already stated. We have been in the specialty auto business for 25 years and are completely self funding - even for such a huge undertaking as the Gullwing project.

However, as I previously stated - our core market is Europe and the UK - we have NO intention of actively promoting to the US market.Reading the posts, it appears that your intention is to sell 4-6 quality turnkey cars a year - and the other guys a similar amount. Surely that's a drop in the Ocean when you consider the potential clientele in the USA - just on the numbers game alone? We are geared up to manufacture 10 of each model per year - and they will ONLY be turnkey [ no kit cars ]. So again, I wish you and the other potential manufacturers all the best in your efforts to produce what you consider to be the "Ultimate" replica, as it's completely illogical to think that even with 3 manufacturers the whole of the USA could be supplied.

BTW - look out for reports on the upcoming "Goodwood Revival" where Sir Stirling Moss will be able to drive our replicas - assuming he is well enough.

There you go Krazyone - see it is possible to communicate with people without having to resort to winding them up or disparaging a company you know nothing about.

Perhaps YOU'D like to let me know how to post pictures to the site?

ATBManfred

Manfred von Heyda

manfred

Sorry, nearly forgot.

Enzo, making bucks out of wood - are you crazy man - or a masochist? Just do what everyone else does in this industry - buy a body and splash it!

One item that we are in the process of sourcing for manufacture is the original tilt steering wheel - now WE'D be interested in an exchange intertrade deal if you come up with a quality piece at a good price. We can buy NOS here in Germany, but they're not cheap.

Maybe we could then help you with things like glass and such?

ATBmanfred

Manfred von Heyda

krazeyone

you got that off your chest , ok, good. pictures??? i don't know how to post them somebody from the forum contacted me and was good enough to do it for me. maybe they will do the same for u? lol, i don't work out of a barn , but i could if i had to.

manfred

Ok Krazyone, truce - can we now get back to the core of these postings without the playground stuff?

I WILL contact a friend who is pretty good with Internet / computer stuff and see if we can get the relevant pix up on the forum for you and others who might be interested.

Barns - yes, that was a cheap shot - apologies.

I have a saying related to the Specialty UK automotive business - "Don't look at the door - look at what came out of the doors".

Some of the BEST projects I've seen came out of barns! In fact for years [ in my early days - mid '60's ] I DID work from a barn. However, I now feel that I've paid my dues - and like you ,I COULD go back to working in a barn - but I'd rather not.

As I said previously [ and sincerely ] good luck with what you're doing.

So, what's happened to all the previous forum posters who were enquiring / passing comment on the Gullwing [ Ostermeier ] project? I thought you all might have been interested enough to ask questions about the project - seeing as we have it from the "horses mouth" as it were. Quite a few had their 5 cents worth to contribute when it was gossip or hearsay and the project's whereabouts were unknown. Where are those enquirers now? Lost interest, or "ghosts" in the system?

For the avoidance of future doubt, I will post the current status of the project next week - NO BS, NO smoke, NO mirrors - just facts that can easilly be authenticated.

At the end of the day 4/5 manufacturers cannot possibly supply Worldwide demand. We found this in Europe / UK with the Porsche 356 Speedster models [ and Cobra ] - but by the time [ 15 years ] all of the manufacturers went their own way and ignored their business rivals, it was too late and when the market shrank [ last 5 years ]some inevitably went to the wall. Part of the reason was that ALL of the manufacturers decided to make their own moulds and jigs, have tooling made for windscreens, frames and other parts - instead of intertrading common parts. The common thought was - "Why should I supply X or Y with MY windscreen frame to make it easy for them" [ are you listening Captain Kirk at Vintage? ]. Another way of looking at it was " IF I supply X or Y at a reasonable price, they will not bother to make jigs and I can supply them to recoup my development costs AND make a profit"!

ATBManfred

Manfred von Heyda

krazeyone

they say you build it, and they will come! spring carlile import/kit car show is on the way may 19-21 it's gonna be close but i'm gonna try to be there. thats a good way to look at it,about trhe parts that is, maybe it is, but you have to think about it do you want somebody to take your pieces, replicate them and sell them, it seems like a hard pill to swallow . it's not like it hasen't been done before. how do you think we got our body and parts, it was taken from a real benz. whats not to stop somebody from doing it to me, or you. nothing, somebody could buy a complete car from you and reproduce it and sell it for 10,000 less than you. it's a catch 22.yoiu have to try to give the customer the best product for the fairest price. i have to make money and your product has to work. you ever buy a steak that was on sale and was as tuff as a shoe sole? you always say i shoulda got the good one. i'm the person that doesn't mind spending the little extra money to save it on the other end. i could immagine who's stuck with a shat gullwing kit that didn't fit together, that they can't find hinges for, that the person who sold them a kit doesn't sell parts to go with it

manfred

Hi Krazyone,

Yes it IS a bit of dilema about parts - that's basically the point of discussion we're at now.

As you quite rightly say, this industry thrives on products being "splashed". Whether you buy an original part and copy it, or buy another repro manufacturers part and copy it- the result is the same.

My point is that you have two choices as manufacturer of those parts. You either REFUSE to supply parts to other end users - in which case they will eventually have the parts made - and then that dilutes your "aftermarket" income; OR you accept that as inevitable and supply your own in house parts and get some return for your investment. OK you are helping to create competition if you supply that last little "wurzlegrommet" that is holding someone back, but I go back to my previous statement - can 4-5 manufacturers REALLY supply the whole of the USA / World market?

Glass is a case in point - we can buy off the shelf glass sets here in Germany - BUT if we invest $10K in moulds we can have ALL of the glass manufactured EXCLUSIVELY for us and the sell it on at a much better price than currently available. Everyone gains, and we get a return for our $10K investment from aftermarket sales. Keep it to ourselves and someone will inevitably go through the same process - and there's another set of moulds to compete with!

And then as I understand it, not all of the projects being mooted will have Mercedes running gear - some will prefer that approach - some will not.

It's a bit like the Cobra market here in the UK / EU. At the height RAM was producing 200 units a year - at that time there were probably 15 - 20 UK based Cobra manufacturers, but all made a healthy business - until the inevitable economic crash.

I expect we will resolve this matter at our next project meeting.

ATBmanfred

Manfred von Heyda

krazeyone

my point of view is that i'm not concerned too much about going into the parts business. i'm more concerned about supplying my customers with parts, than people who baught somebody elses kit. and maybe thats where you might come in. i'm sure there is a market for parts. but my parts might be slightly different than your parts. do you know how much i could get for a complete set my replica door hinges!? lets just say alot, but i don't need to make money selling hinges. thats not where my interest is. the other thing is that there is only a handfull of quality replica gullwing cars that are out there, whats your guess? the only ones worth a hoot are the ones that Quint made and the ones Ostermier made. it's not that many. and if you can afford a real one your not worried about where and how much your parts are gonna cost. so what is the aftermarket gullwing parts market gonna make you. the glass thing is the worst part of these cars, because you really have no choice but to use original glass, or aftermarket if you can find it

Crotty

I for one, as a potential consumer, am thrilled at the prospect of a choice of quality Gullwing replicas available on the market. I know Ostermeier's cars, and from the looks of it, both the Mazzas and Krazeyone are building accurate, quality cars. Separate from Manfred's announcement, I am aware that Hooper was sold to the German company, and I know that the Ostermeier tools and molds went with that sale. I have no doubt that this company will produce the quality cars pioneered by Ostermeier, and the only major disappointment is that they will not be available in the US.

Manfred, would it be possible to follow the Super Performance and Noble sales model and sell the cars complete but without an engine. There could then be a few designated shops, like Roush for Super Performance, that installs an appropriate motor. That way, you could get around a bunch of the DMV regulations here in the States.

I'm sure the market in Europe and the UK will provide all the demand you need, but it's an idea. Short of that, we'll all be looking forward to seeing what the Mazzas and Krazeyone pull off. Goodness knows there's enough of us in the USA ready for something!!

jaysherman

Boy take a couple of days off and...I think it is great that someone is trying to put the Gullwing out there. The problem is the same that Tony ran into...they are expensive and have a limited high end market. Both Tony and Quints cars are the best. I think Tony tried to mass produce them if you could call the limited run mass but was unable to make enough $$. The problem is they cost a lot to build...Tony found that out and Hooper found that out. To make an affordable complete car or kit you would have to do so in China or South America were the labor is more cost effective. The success of the Cobra is in its simplicity and affordability unlike the many expensive parts of the Gullwing. Like the folding steering wheel or the glass. I bought some of the lasty glass from Tony's source, most of it was broken to get rid of rather than store it. The Gullwing though a beautiful car was not popular like others and still has a limited market unlike the Cobra. Just my .10 I am very interested in parts but find that they are very expensive. I am piecing together parts one at a time and making what I can. My hat goes off to Quint and Tony. Glad to hear that Tony is still around and hopefully getting some of the credit for a wonderful car that he built. Herman...keep up the good work!

manfred

Hi Guys ,nice to see some positive responses.

K-One - Thanx for the kind words re: the Ostermeier project - we hope to take it forward and continue to improve on the excellent job that Tony started.

Re: the parts "supply" debate - either I'm not making myself clear [ quite possibly! ] or you are missing my point.

We HAVE to manufacture the relevant parts to make us self sufficient and COMPETITIVE on parts costings. We have done some fine business in the past 25+ years selling parts that we make / source - but that's not part of our core business - just a result of it.

For instance - let's take the glass sets. We ALL know how expensive that can be, either from OEM source or from the glass manufacturers - such as Pilkington [ the people who made the glass for Tony ].Pilkington is a dyed in the wool ENGLISH company - firmly buried in the past. So when we ask for 904 screens on a commercial basis [ 50 + per order] they quote us Ā£850 [stirling] PER screen. So, what do we do? Invest in a set of moulds and order 50, which means that we can sell RETAIL for Ā£275.00 and earn a fair profit. The same company HAS the moulds for the Gullwing - with the same crazy prices. Ergo, we do it all again. The difference this time is that there are a damn site MORE real Gullwings and Roadsters about than there are 904's! Our glass is made to full safety specs and carries all of the relevant marks. As far as other parts are concerned, 95% of ALL accessory parts have jigs and tooling already made and in our possesion. Any essential part NOT currently catered for is being tooled as we "speak".

As to owners of the real thing NOT wanting to save money if they can - my experience shows that not only will they save money where possible, but are the most likely to want to screw you down for a deal! After all, that's how most of them GOT their wealth.Either way, we have not decided internally what to do yet, but we would be commercially niaive if we didn't consider the commercial opportunity of selling product from moulds and tooling that we have invested in.

As to differences - if anyone has a splash from a REAL Gullwing or Roadster - then our parts will fit! We are already in discussions with a well respected supplier of Repro parts [ to Classic Owners ] to supply them with parts that they do not yet have in their inventory. It is also our understanding that there may well be existeing Gullwing [ Ostermeier ] customers out there who are short of parts to complete their cars. That's another reason why we invite previous owners to contact us to form a register of owners.

Crotty - yes we had already considered supplying our cars through prestige outlets, and exporting less engine / trans, also makes good sense from the point of servicing any warranty issues.

We are geared up to make 10-12 cars [ each model ] in the first full production year, and then we have potential with the current facilities and work force to increase that to 25 per model. Those will be divided upon demand into RHD or LHD, although we expect the greater ratio to be LHD.

Initially we will run with the current spec on the cars - straight 6 Merc engines with manual or auto trans. I am returning to the works in the next couple of weeks to discuss the ongoing development - in the areas of using current [ new ] Mercedes axles, suspensions, engines, trans., etc. the German market will almost certainly demand an option for Blown V8 Merc. motors with manual trans. We are already looking at braking upgrades from our Cobra replica.

We have already received a large number of requests for info. via our website, and one party has even expressed an interest to fly out to Saxony to drive the car and discuss an order.

As a matter of courtesy Jurgen Mohr will respond to the initial enquiries, but after that you'll be redirected to me.

Jaysherman - yes the replica WILL be a high end product and that will be reflected in the quality.

However, given the economic nature of Saxony we don't have to travel to China or other far away places! Don't get me wrong - we're not talking of " a bowl of rice a day" salaries, but traditionally costs / salaries are considerably lower than in the affluent Western and Southern part of Germany. Don't equate that to innefective workforce - Saxony is inundated with mainstream auto factories and expertise. Having carefully researched [ and budgeted ] this project before entering into negotiations - it soon became clear that to have the car manufactured elsewhere would not stack up, especially when you take shipping, time, and duties etc. into consideration. Not to mention the relatively low volume involved. Given that we have a 7000 sq.ft GRP production facilty and a 5000 sq. ft fabrication and toolroom workshop - it would be economically crazy to go elsewhere. Add to that the fact that we have ALL major aspects of general car production covered with our sites in Saxony, Czech Republic and Bavaria and the allure of using China or a.n.other becomes academic.

As previously posted, we are NOT a new company, but one that's been around for many years - all our capital invesments have already been made and paid for themselves - so adding another model[s] to our range is a comparatively painless operation.

Again, thanx for the kind comments about Tony's car - we will indeed carry on the tradition he began.

To put the "Hooper Name" into perspective - although we now legally own the name and logos, it was felt that Mohr has sufficient credibility in his own right not to have to "trade" on a name. You will see the name gradually disappear from the website and literature.

I have spoken to a business colleague of mine who will try to post up some relevant pix for your info., but anyone wanting to see pictures of ACTUAL cars can visit our website www.gullwing.ch.ATB Manfred

Manfred von Heyda

martinpcraven

Hi guys and girls - My good friend Manfred von Heyda has asked me to post some pictures of their new Gullwing and Roadster project.

I have read through all of the posts on that particular thread with great interest.

In case anyone should doubt MY credibility - I am the principal of Classic Roadsters Ltd. [ Surrey, England ] and we market a range of Replica Porsches. Initially the 356 Speedster and T6 Roadster, and in July, we will be launching a fantastic 550A Spyder replica as well.

Here are some pictures that Manfred has sent over to me - please enjoy.

BTW - I have personally SEEN and DRIVEN these cars in Saxony - they DO exist!

Cheers,Martin Craven.

Classic Roadsters Limited (Surrey England)

manfred

Many thanx to my good friend Martin for posting up the pix.[ How DO you do that?]

I hope that finally allays any fears that we use mirrors or smoke in our manufacturing process.

AND BEFORE YOU ALL POST IN ABOUT THE DISGUSTING STEERING WHEEL ON THE ROADSTER - IT WAS A REQUIREMENT TO GET THE CAR THROUGH THE RELEVANT TUV [ DMV EQUIVALENT ]. Until we finalise our own period tilt wheels, we will be offering a Nardi / Moto Lita woodrim option.

Incidentally, the Roadster demo car becomes my personal transport when I'm in Saxony and I've put some considerable miles on it in all conditions - including rain and snow. It's no rocket ship when compared to the Cobras we manufacture - but it just oozes C L A S S.

Apart from the several part finished cars in the main showroom, there is a separate pic. of the bare Alloy/Epoxy Hybrid Gullwing.For those not familiar with the process, it requires molten aluminum to be sprayed into an Epoxy mould, and then backed with an epoxy firming skin. The finished item can be polished just like alloy. Notice the bright mark on the nose of the Gullwing bare body where I scraped it with a craft knife to prove the point to myself. We also polished up a small panel - and it really DOES look like alloy. The sharp eyed amongst you will also spot the nose of our upcoming 904 sat next to a prototype Rover [ nee Buick ] powered sports convertible. This project [ convertible ] is for sale????

Realm are currently considering this process for their Jaguar "C" Type Roadster. We will also no doubt trial this method on our upcoming 550 Spyder.

So for the cynics - there's the proof you might have needed - cars up and running, spares, parts and ongoing builds.

ATBManfred

Manfred von Heyda

kitcarguy

Can you post a few pictures of the engine bay? If not feel free to email them to me and I will post them

One more picture for you 300 SL aficionados and a Porsche 904 replica to also drool over ! All the best

Classic Roadsters Limited (Surrey England)

martinpcraven

We have had a couple of requests for more pictures both of the Mercedes AND the Porsche 904 from the fleet. I'm sure Manfred won't mind me sending the attached pics for you picture addicts from my own files. He tells me that the V8 donkey on the floor is now installed in the body / chassis on the hoist. That should liven the performance up a tad!If you need/want more pictures just ask away - anything specific then Manfred may well have to field the enquiry.

These vehicles are beautifully appointed and a joy to drive and are designed and developed to a 'proper' production car quality and finish

Just a quick note to say thanx to all those people who have taken the trouble to contact me directly - I will reply to everyone within 24 hours.

The website is being currently revamped - I personally was not happy about the Hooper name "dropping" - even though we legally own it. Mohr has an enviable and impeccable history in the specialty car business - and doesn't need to trade off someone else's past.

I hope to have all the changes made and ready to be uploaded by the time I get back to Saxony.

However, I'm back in Saxony in a week's time - so will be on the gullwing.ch address.

I think it's accepted now that we ARE a bone fide manufacturer who has real cars and real tooling.

Some people are asking for specific areas to be photographed - no problem, just let me know and I'll do my best to oblige. Most of my archive photos are "snapshots" and not taken as professional images. However I do have a good camera that is reputed to be "idiot" proof - so I'll have a go with that.

Someone suggested that I took a picture of the car with a current newspaper held up in front! I think that was from Mr. A .Cynic.

I'm off for a long weekend R&R with my family to recharge the batteries for the next trip.ATBMAnfredPS thanx again Martin - I WILL learn one day how to post pix - honest!

Manfred von Heyda

gullwing

Manfred, I just want to congradulate you for what you are trying to do and for walking the gauntlet of us naysayers. I believe you have handled yourself very perfessionally and have not ducked any serious question. You will have to excuse all of the naysayers. Those of us who have built a replica (Hermna Quint, Tony Ostermeir, and those of us who are attemtping to build on myself, Jay Sherman, Jerry Lester and the Mazzas know all too well the enormity of the task of building one of these cars. So the prospect of building a successful company is even more challenging. I am very sceptical of anyone who has a quick fix as I know that it will not happen. I like what you have had to say. I agree with your buisness model. It sounds very much like what I would do it I could. It sounds like you have the credentials to build the care and do it right. Building a company hmmm, that is a bigger challenge. Sounds to me like you are going to built about a dozen Ostermeir quality cars from the 13 container of parts. However now that you have invested a large sum of money do you have what it ttakes to finish the cars. Do you have 60% of the makings of 6 cars or 80% of the makings of 8 cars? Each car will require a donor mercedes. Then there are the items missing. Door hinges will cost $10,000 for the molds an one hinge perhaps $20,000 for 200 hinges. So thats another chunk of money invested in inventory. If you have 20 similar items to make to complete your 8 cars then thats another $400,000 before the cars are done. So you have your initial investment, the parts and molds needed to be made and on top of that the cost of doing buisness, supplies, salaries overhead etc. So it is quite the challange. If you outlined the details of the driveline I missed it. I assume that you are using the SLK driveline. Now the price? I assume a target price of $150,000 plus US dollars. This puts one of these turnkeys out of my price range. I have been one of the mere mortals more concerned with building a kit. A) I haven't the equity to buy A $150,000 car and B)to me the real joy will be to build the car my-self and in the manor I judge to be a modern recreation. I have about $30,000 already into my kit but aside from the interior, chrome and final paint have the bulk of the car finished. I wished the window frames and the front rear bumper were more exact replica of the original but I have done the best I can with my fabrication skills. Also if you do choose to make these items available I will buy them from you and upgrade them. So once again good luck and if you ever need a US distributor of your component parts let me know.

Greg

manfred

Hi Greg,

I'm always happy to enter reasonable discussion and debate, and commend you on your own well restrained cynical approach to my posts.

Please bear in mind that my original posting was nothing more than to let people know what happened to the Ostermeier project. Purely from a historical standpoint, I think it's important to have the facts. There is NO intention to hype up our business - as it has been well established for over 25 years - thus your comments about all of the high investment required, believe me - HAS been taken care of. We are not some "fledgeling" company on a wing [ sorry - almost pun ] and a prayer that must stand or fall on the success or otherwise of the Gullwing project. As to "overheads", salaries, and etc. - we currently operate out of 9000 sq.ft. in Saxony [ in a 5 acres complex ] with another 3 locations totalling another 20K sq.ft. There is a workforce at Heyda of 8 - all busy making Turnkey Cobras and Porsche T6 Roadsters - a 550 Spyder and 904 are currently being developed [ available this Fall ]. We also have several "real" cars in for restoration - including a 904. We can "grow" our facility quite simply to increase our annual throughput of cars.

Capital investment is NOT a problem for us.

Also, I think I might not have made myself clear - the 13 or so part cars [ in various stages of completion ] are simply what was inherited with the project. Naturally we also have the neccessary moulds and jigs/tooling to remanufacture all of the relevant parts. These cars WILL be completed to customer order as a continuation of the old "Ostermeier" spec'd cars.

We have currently taken two of those cars to be used as development mules for the new V8 powerplant and the very latest Mercedes OEM axles and suspension.These will be the "Phase 2" products - using bang up to date mechanicals.

Yes, current power plant is either E300 or E320 with 5 spd. manual or 4 speed auto trannies. No rocket ships for sure when compared with a healthy Chevy lump - but "adequate".

However, we know from our Cobra and Porsche experiences, that our German customers demand all the bells and whistles - air-con, etc., so we are currently installing the very latest Merc. V8 power.

Yes, it's a fine line between "spirit of the original" and practicality / customer demand. In this case - the Customer is King and if they want a V8 - then that's what they'll get! It will be a Merc however! There will ALWAYS be the option of 6 /8 cylinder power.Also, you'd be surprised at just how much more affordable OEM Mercedes parts [ new of course ] are here in Germany than the US!

There is obviously a demand for such a power unit [ Quint cars ], and at the end of the day the car's not REAL anyway - so why get precious about whether the engine has 6 or 8 cylinders.

Additionally - your costings are, I am quite sure valid for mainland USA - but totally out of the window here in the old Eastern part of Germany. We are less than 100 kms. from Poland and Czech - each with their own economic advantages.

I guess you've seen the incredible Kirkham ALUMINUM Cobra bodies made in a former MiG works? SUPERB quality and at a price that would make an English panel beater weep. You are talking of 75% LESS than the cost of an equivalent UK produced alloy body.

It is highly UNLIKELY that we will contemplate selling the cars as Kits - possible rolling body/chassis -possibly.

I am having a key meeting in two weeks' time to discuss the on sale of component parts. Should any positive decision be made we will of course invite discussion from potential agents / distributors.

So, to conclude - we are a company that has been in business [ successful] for 25 years+, we are self funding and own our facilities ouright [ not rented ]- we have a well established workforce who specialise in the building of these type of cars.

I have not mastered the black art of posting photos to the forum, but I am quite happy to send you photos direct to your personal e-mail address.

ATBManfred

Manfred von Heyda

kitcarguy

Here are some more pics from krazeyone ...... I am also going to post them all at www.kitcar.ws

thanks kitcarguy, i wish you could explain how to do this pic insert buisness in the forum. i just can't figgure it out. i have so many pics to share with everybody, and i don't want to inconvenience you , but i do appreciate it very much. i'm sure manfred would appreciate it as well.

jaysherman

To me those are pictures of jewels! Especially the window latch and hinge parts! Must have more pictures......

kitcarguy

I dont mind krazy.When you make your first million make sure you truck a car to me..lol. you can use a site like imageshack.us to upload photos and post them . or better yet set up a username and gallery on my site and add them there. I will also post some more pics.

Manfred you are right I am by my nature cynical. That being said it does indeed sound like your buisness plan is well thought out and it works. I know I am going to see some great cars out of Saxony. You will re-ignite a passion for Gullwing ownership much as the replica Cobras have done for Cobras.

Krazyone, its always exciting to see your parts. Your hinges have turned my mediocre doors into something first rate. I hope no one will accuse me of blasphemy but I am installing a pair of linear actuators and a remote door opener. So I will marry the old and the new.

We live in exciting times!

krazeyone

gullwing, i think thats great. it's your car make it whatever way you want , thats the point. you don't need all of those parts. put in whatever you can afford. make your own parts, go to the local salvage yards ,and whatever is available to you. whatever we do to any of these cars just remember it's still a replica, even with a 2000.00 steering wheel or one you baught at your parts store. i think thats the best part of a kit car, inless you were a gullwing finatic you would never know. your still going to turn heads. it doesn't matter who's car you get it will still just be a replica. just because some dude at Barrett Jackson paid two hundred something thousand dollars. doesn't mean that it what they will get. that guy was one dumb person! if he had 250g's to spend on a fake i bet he had the money to buy a real one, lol. the only smart person that day was the guy selling the car. he laughed all the way to the bank.

jaysherman

Krazyone, how about a couple more shots of the other side of the door handle latches and receiver, any of the window frames and wind-wings? What would you recommend for the rear side window gaskets? Are the tail light lenses and gaskets factory? Thanks for any help.

manfred

Well guys - if nothing else my original posting does seem to have got you all talking together and swapping ideas!!!!!!

That's GREAT because in this industry there's room for everyone. I'm sure [ in fact I KNOW ] that somewhere, someone is whittling away using all real parts on a GRP shell to make the "Perfect" replica - wrong - it's still GRP!Then more generally, there's others in the industry that will take a shape and resize it to fit something that already exists - eg - the McBurnie Daytonas or any one of hundreds of Beetle kits. Each one will put their all into the project - misguided in our view or not - that's the point , it is ONLY our view and doesn't matter a hoot to the guys building the project. It does however have to be reasonably saleable if there is to be any commercial return.

Many years ago a guy came to me with an XK120 Roadster kit that he had bought in the USA. It had been widened 4" to sit on a Pinto [ I think ] chassis frame, or use Pinto parts. To my eyes - and any other English enthusiast it looked horrendous. So I took the 4" back out and designed a chassis taking all XK running gear - including of course - the classic 6 cylinder engine. Was I right, was the originator who had a Pinto sat in his workshop right? In the end it didn't matter - there were customers aplenty for each style.

IMHO an interchange of ideas and even parts is healthy and can lead to only one thing - putting more of "our" type of cars on the road for folks to enjoy.

We are currently undertaking a restoration of a real 904 with full factory and competition history. Naturally I will not divulge the owner's name or the costs involved - but let's say that I couldn't even afford [ well I could, but couldn't justify it to my Wife! ] thecost of the restoration, never mind the original value of the car - but I CAN afford [ and justify! ] one of our own replicas. The body is as faithful a "replica" [ in true dictionary sense ] as you can get, as it was taken out of the original Heinkel moulds. As a side point, we also have the ORIGINAL clay model 904 [ 24" long ] moulds, and have produced a handful of GRP models for that ultimate office / den display.

Sure, we will not recreate the antiquated 904 chassis and suspension - why should we throw away 20+ years of development and evolution to make a 60's style product? We are simply redesigning our spaceframe 550 Spyder chassis / suspension combo, for what we consider will be the best of both World's - the timeless beauty of the 904 with modern design theory, brakes, suspension and fittings. Again, as the Merc - the power plant will be 4/6 cylinder air cooled Porsche, but one customer has already asked for a Boxster unit to be installed. Is that a no no to put a water cooled engine in such a classic - or just good sense?

I received an invite to Carlisle from our good friends at www.speedstershop.com but regrettably the pressure of work this year rules that out, but our UK distributor and collaborator Classic Roadsters Ltd. has supplied some poster goodies for prizegiving.So maybe next year I'll get to meet up with you guys, hopefully driving into the showground with your own Gullwings - I'll drink to that.

ATBManfred

BTW - kitcarguy - can I post photos to you easier than to the forum? If not I'll continue to ask my good friend Martin Craven to post for me.

Manfred von Heyda

gullwing

Manfred, Jay and I will promise to have Dorothy1 and 2 (see "Gone in Sixty Seconds") to Carlisle 2007 if you work on the same. I'll bring the Jim Beam if you bring the Apfelcorn and we will all compare notes as to how we approached I similar problem from different directions and the reults we obtained.

On that note I am considering what to do with the rear roof vent. I was considering a 4 inch deep vent with LEDS as a third brake light and probably a rear mount videa for backing up. For now getting the car running is my priority but brainstorming potential improvements is fun too.

krazeyone

to jay sherman , if you have a front window gasket you know what the rear window, and rear side window gaskets look like. they are all the same material. the rear lenze assy are hand fabricated as is all of my pieces, i do have the window frames, front vent window, i have everything just not able to put pic on forum, lol. i have original ones ( for me) and i made a jig to reproduce them

jaysherman

Krazyone, thanks for any help. I have all the glass but the gaskets are large H type that do not fit the windshield or the tight curve of the side rears. The original sides are one piece and about $400 a pair I think so that is out. Just trying to get as much info as I can while it is available. I understand.

manfred

Hey Gullwing,

Yes I'd love to share a bottle or two with you [ and the other guys ]at Carlisle next year [ Work permitting! ]- however, I don't think it will be viable to freight one of our cars over just for a personal selfish whim. So I guess I'll have to blag a "shotgun" ride with you guys!

HOWEVER, we are putting out the idea of an "Open House" weekend at our auto complex in Heyda later this year, and throwing out an open invitation to owners of relevant cars [ of ANY make and origin ]. Pig Roast, beer fest, you know the kind of thing. It won't be structured in the way of "concours", "best of show", "best original wurzlegrommet valve that nobody can see" - no it will be a laid back meeting of minds and ideas. We are discussing with the farmer who owns the land next to our complex for camp site and parking facilities.

It will also be an opportunity for folks to come along and see our various products, check out the facilities and generally to have a chilled out weekend - the emphasis being on having a good time.

Now then - a big "Thank You" Gullwing - your idea about using the rear vents to house a high level brake light are inspired!

Our vents are functional, but I could see that we could easilly install a row of LED stop lamps around the inside periphery of the apperture. They would remain out of view until operated and so not spoil the period look. Would also solve a TUV requirement NEATLY - AND look real cool.

Due accreditation offered should we decide to "borrow" your idea!!!!!

Ref: the spares situation YOU guys are discussing - if there is anything I can do to check out OEM prices [ or repro equivalent ], just give me a holler and I'll check out currently available sources here in Germany. That is irrespective of what decision we come to over our own company generated spares.

Looks like things are really beginning to cook on this forum, and I for one am encouraged about the current interchange of ideas - see, we CAN all get along together!

ATB

Manfred

Manfred von Heyda

kitcarguy

This is one of the best threads I have seen on kitcars.com . So help me out. What is this gullwing concidered? is it a Neo Classic? I would like to add a forum on my site

Not sure how to catorgorize it but is by far the most popular thread. It is surprising in that it is probably the rarest of kits in purely the kit build it your self form but draws the most interest as evidenced by the thread page count. If I learn a little bit everyday about the build it helps me and besides another post count....

krazeyone

i'm convinced that posting a picture on this site or on kitcarguys site involves getting a PHD in computer 101. f#@#ing impossible!!!!!! if somebody could tell me step by step what is involved or if it is just not possible for me , or that it is top secret , and i'm not supposed to know??? i have very nice pics to share and i'm willing to show everyone, but i am not able to, and i don't want to rely on kitcarguy, not that he won't do it , but if someone would show us how , we could shine a whole new light on this subject.... it would open a new world of doors, lol!!!

What is so impressive, at least to me is that you make these parts. The difficulty in building a gullwing, not having tons of money is to be able to make these parts. Hats off! What are the curved handles? Not the door handles....

krazeyone

krazeyone

krazeyone

thats a good question about those handles jay???? first person to get it correct gets a prize, or if you figgure it out, you must have had to own a real car, or know bout yer gullwings

jaysherman

Dad had one and I was in one last year....let me think??

jaysherman

OK, the only thing I can think of is a hood or trunk release or the Gullwing had some special vents or similar. Handles for them?

jaysherman

Ok my picture library shows more like T handles for the releases, the only other parts they could be for is the seat release, nice job on the seats. Getting the trim around the seat frame is period correct.

jaysherman

About the only thing I am getting is a higher post count. Looked at seat levers and they have a knob. It looks like a lever of some sort? The handles go on the doors and dash but that is easy. Still trying to figure out those levers???

kitcarguy

Damn I go to sleep for 7 hours, come back and your posting pics.... damn my work is done here....lol

looks like the weather is going to be bad for carlisle , but car still needs another 2 weeks, so it really doesn't matter. we'll see what shows are in the future. does anybody know of any kit shows in north east?

jaysherman

How about some pictures when you get it done....

enzo

Hello everybody, iĀ“ve been out for a while, very busy in deed but fully on my gullwing project. I must say after all this time thereĀ“s a lot of good stuff in this forum, great pictures, Krazyone, youĀ“re not a bit crazy. By the moment I canĀ“t put any picture since a few weeks ago i ended my studies about the project and from that time till now iĀ“ve put things together in order to start chassis, and everything that goes with it. Manfred i can say you are quite pro and experienced, sorry itĀ“s so difficult to make people aknowledge it. Saw your past reply on me saying why not to purchase a kit, perhaps i should, but is there any reliable enterprise where i can buy one? By the other hand making good quality pieces is not a problem to me since as you posted "Capital investment is NOT a problem for us". We should get in contact.Enzo

my new updates are as follows, just a few hours of bodywork left. the last bit just seems to drag on, than wetsanding, paint and it's ready to rock and roll. i will post pics when it is in paint. probibly by end of month, maybe sooner, depending on how motivated i am

jaysherman

Same here but way behind. I am doing body work and than pin hole sand and prime. Still need to make a lot of parts...Interesting to see what manfred comes up with as far as parts are concerned and if they are affordable. I spent quite a bit of time looking for Tony's parts sources and could only find the glass. I had heard that he bought most of them NOS. With the price increases since than it would be really expensive to build a car that way now.

there isn't really a name for the color. i mixed it up to what i liked, and sprayed it. it's a hunter green metalic flake kinda color, or something like that, LOL! it didn't matter what the color looked like just that it has a smooth finish on it so that it could be waxed for the mold making process.

kitcarguy

Well when im a little older (31 now) Maybe I will buy one from you. Im still not ready to drive something like that. I love it though...lol

these pics are after i buffed it out today . and man does it look good, too bad it's only going to be used as a plug. it's super straight and all the curves are so beautifull. i really didn't appreciate it untill i buffed it and put it in the sun , it just looked so ***y. it was really worth the effort to go the extra mile, because they are all going to be this straight, and nobody will be able to say that i sold them a piece of garbage like some other kit manufactures do. and as for you liking the color kitcarguy, thanks, it was my own concoktion of colors

jaysherman

Can someone explain to me the making of a plug process?

krazeyone

a plug is what you use to make a mold, so if your plug has a dent, wave, deep scratches, in other words whatever your plug looks like, your finished fiberglass body should look the same . so ,any part used in making a mold, is called a plug. whether it be a door , hood , etc.

jaysherman

Thanks, What would you make a plug out of, foam or fiberglass? How is it made? Anybody?

Speedster Motorcars

Our company, Speedster Motorcars, is undertaking the development of a turnkey 300SL Gullwing Coupe. We are intending to debut the prototype in Montery, CA on August 18th and to produce three to four cars per month. We are a viable manufacturer of turnkey replicas as can be seen by viewing our website at speedstermotorcar.com. The reason for this post is to see if there is an interest in the Gullwing in kit car form. Any comments or questions can be sent to ron@speedstermotorcar.com.

Fantastic news, Ron. You guys build great cars. I'm looking forward to seeing the prototype in Monterey. Hope you guys will get as close to the real thing as possible - with correct guages, trim and hardware. Best of luck!!

gullwing

Since the focus of this page is Kit Cars I wanted to redirect the conversation a bit. Keep in mind that Ostermeir, Quint, Hooper, Manfred, the Mazzas and now Ron were building or attempting to build turnkey replicas. What we should be talking about is what do we enthusiasts who want to build our own kit versio, what do we do?

At the present time the only manufacturer who is willing to sell a body and frame is Gil Lonecker in Florida. So far he has sold three kits. Myself, Jay and Jerry. I bought my kit first so I an furthest along. My project and Jays have been slowed as we wait for out finances to catch up to our ambitions. Jerry on the other hand is the last one in but his financial situation has been such that he has been buying top drawer components and moving right along.

I made a list the other day of the approximate cost to build a kit car version of the replica. This isn't exactly what either of the three of us paid but what it would cost if we did it again knowing what we have learned. The total came to about $42,000. This figure estimates about $6,000-8,000 for the body and $6,000 for a frame. I estimated $5,000 for a paint job and $2,000 for the interior. There are some high cost items due to the fact that no one makes the parts and reconditioned 190SL parts are the only solution. The grill, front bumpers, headlights, tail lights, are such items.

Greg

theboogers

manfred- is that the company you work for in the latest road and track with the modern 300sl roadster? do you have pricing yet for rolling chassis to usa?

james

Hello Krazeyone,

could you please get in touch with me. I have few questons abaut your Kit. I send you twice an e-Mail, but you dindĀ“t respond maybe you have a new e-Mail address...

Bye James.

Electric_Lights

Thread bump!

I've been following this one for a while.

How did the unvieling at the Monterey Historics go?

And so on.

krazeyone

james, i will answer your questions. Just wondering how speedster motorcars did at that show?????? i haven't gotten any e-mails or phone calls that they were there? just curious?

Speedster Motorcars

Just a quick post, our Gullwing replica missed Montery, but debued at the Auburn show last weekend. Photos of the first completed car are on our web site @ speedstermotorcar.com. This car is a prototype and is sold, but we expect to be in production by mid Oct. We are still contemplating offering the car in kit form so please contact me if interested. Ron Clark

message goes to speedster motorcars, very nice car, just wanted to see some pics of the finished interior and dash? do you have any?

krazeyone

i saw the pics on your website, very nice representation of the components on the dash, i think it looks like a decent kit. i'm so happy that yours isn't all original parts, it is nice to see that with a little talent and knowhow you can get one of these cars together with what your budget allows. not to say that it still wasen't expensive to put together, but the fiberglass bumpers and little things like that can go a long way in saving money in a build. i don't think that it qualifies as a replica, my definition of a replica would be that it would take someone a few munites to tell weather or not it was the real thing. for me, the grant steering wheel would give it away. it is definately a car that appeals to the masses. and i'm sure we will meet one day and it will be a blast! i'm so glad to see thatsomeone else in the U.S. is working on this car, and actually building one, and puting thier money where thier mouth was, and not all smoke and mirrors like some other people in the kit car business trying to build the perfect replica. LOL! sincearely, Big Al and H.Q.

jaysherman

It's nice to finally see a completed car on the market. I am getting tired of looking at pieces in my shop. Looks like a larger door frame maybe with opening windows?

Speedster Motorcars

Thanks for the kind words as regards the Gullwing. As I stated in the last post this car is a prototype and we are incorporating a number of improvements in the production version, i.e. chrome bumpers. Our aim is to offer a car representative of the original but with affordable components and ease of servicing. The car has been engineered to drive like a modern sports car and still have amenities like power steering, brakes, A/C, etc. It is our belief that these qualities, and not an exact duplication of the original, will sell the car. Lets face it, how many people know what a "real" Gullwing looks like anyway? Were still contemplating the possibility of selling the car in kit form as the build time on the prototype, after paint, was 6 1/2 days! It is simply a matter of finalizing the cost breakdown to see if it is feasable. Thanks, Ron Clark

Well my gullwing is still very much a work in progress. I started fitting the dash in this week. It actually begining to look like a car!

jaysherman

Looking good! I need to make some progress this winter. Just finished plasma cutting out the rear end three link brackets.

jaysherman

This post started over 3 years ago! Anyone have any news? Mazza, Krazeyone, Manfred, Speedster???

Speedster Motorcars

We are in production, with the first car due to be completed in two weeks. We will post photos of cars as they are finished, so log on to our web site periodically. The car is under the GW Coupe header. The prototype was tested heavily and then disassembled for inspection. Everything looks great and were very happy with the end result. The car is solid, quick, corners well, and stops like a true sports car. We will be hitting a number of shows in the next few months to debut the car, so again check the web site.

Thanks, I have been following your posts and web site. Very exciting! I would like to see one up close should you be in a show in the California area.

kitcar61

Hey, Gullwing, the dash is coming together nicely. Are those instruments from Classic Gauges? They look like the set that my buddy has on his custom hot rod (black face with white numbers, though). Good luck and looking forward to seeing updated pix.

gullwing

Yes, they are from Classic Guages. I could have bought some original VDO guages from a 190SL for a few hundred more but it is difficult to install and calibrate a cable drive speedo. The tachometer is even worse as it is difficult (expensive) to get a tach drive distributer especially for a modern engine. NAPA still sells VDO guage (ecept the clock) but the bezel is black, the needle is orange and the face has a different design. So by the time you disassemble, silkscreen repaint and re-chrome it you might just as well buy a diffent brand. I suppose if I was a purist I would silkscreen my guages. However I like the look and will simply be content to see the car run someday.

Some of you already know my recent story due to private e-mail contact, but for those who don't - just a quick note to explain my absence from the forum for the latter part of 2006.

My Father [ 86 years old ] suffered a series of strokes during 2006, gradually more serious, until eventually he became hsopitalised for 4 months before Christmas and eventually lost his fight on November 30th.

As you might imagine, all my time was taken up with family matters and visiting my Father, so consequently all my personal work in Saxony had to take the back burner.

That is not to say that work has not continued at a fast pace in my absence - indeed 3 cars have now been sold and one of our Coupes made an appearance at the prestigious Goodwood Revival Race meeting at the end of the year. The car was DRIVEN from Bavaria NON -STOP [ apart from gas ] to Calais, and then on to Goodwood, where it received rave revues.

After a brief tour in the UK, it was driven back to Bavaria on another 1800 kms blast. I was able to put some 650 miles on the car during the tour of UK outlets, and it performed faultlessly and coped completely with modern traffic conditions. One "speeding" ticket for 125 mph was torn up by the officer concerned as he just happened to be a Gullwing fanatic!

I have a meeting with Company Principal Jurgen Mohr at the upcoming Race Car Show in Birmingham [ UK ] in 2 weeks time, and will be bringing myself up to speed with the project. I expect to be back in Saxony during Febuary to get behind the project again.

I thank all of you who made contact and for your kind words of condolance.

ATB

MAnfred

Manfred von Heyda

jaysherman

Sorry to hear of your loss. Keep us posted about the Gullwing and pictures are always appreciated.

gullwing

I see that the first of the two Speedster Gullwing replicas is for sale on E-bay. Buy it now for $125,000. While neither a kit nor a replica it is a nice re-creation.

Crotty

$125K is steep for a car that isn't accurate, and unexpected given the quality and high-level of accuracy of their Auburn Speedsters.

Here's another company getting into the business. Not sure how far along they are as it looks as if they've only built a 300SL roadster and an SLR. Their prices are significant, but it's a good concept if the end result is as accurate as it appears to be.

the ebay merc is still their nothing happened auction went to 75k by me and stopped, tried to buy a kit for europe, as we need it with merc engine as american engines r not practicle for europe. and looking for V6 n V8 versions.

we have financal backing and distribution contact and knowhow to sell these and SLR just looking to hooking with the right partner and gullwing.ch offering seems the best so far.

the guy selling buy the way claims he owns the manufacturer which too was fishy and did not think he was quite truthful

mercs r real collectors dream

1964Roddedspit

I have a friend of mine selling a replica 300 slr that has had the fiberglass body tweaked to make it more authentic looking. It looks like it needs a bit of work but I bet it could be picked up for around 10k, it has engine trans suspension etc all in place. If you want any more info I can see what I can find out.

jaysherman

I was watching the Gullwing replica and it disappeared from my watch list twice. Not sure why ebay or the seller removed it.

gullwing

I guess I need to get my grill plated and put it in place.

gullwing

not exactly a Merc motor but its kit car so I can put anything I want under the hood!

Bat Masterson

Hello 300sl lovers

I live in sunny acapulco,mexico i've been here for about 8 years and have built the odd kit car. a couple of months ago i picked up a nice looking 1955 190SL. What i want to do is to fabricate the doors, the roof, etc and connect it to the roadster. There are other fibreglass modifications that i need to make to do a good job, that isn't a problem here, lots of talent in that area.What i need is the hardwear, door handles, latches. I read through this entire string (took 3 hours, mexican time) and Krazeone had fabricated what i need, if he is still around maybe he would be so kind as to reply, or anyone else for that matter. Thanks for your help. I really enjoyed this string, I miss kit car people like myself. I have lots of good times here in mexico, women, weather, my boat and so on. But they don't know jack about kit cars here.

gullwing

I got a picture of the back of the car. I can at least see the end in sight.

james

Hi guys,

what happend to the Mazza brothers (m-wingmotors.com)?Are they still working on the Gullwing?

Bye.

gullwing

The prevailing thought is that the Mazzas have run out of money prior to completing their two cars. The projected down payments for cars never materialized. The two cars are too incomplete in their current state to sell and recoup enough of their investment. Hopefully some white knight investers will come to their rescue. On a positive note though Gil Longnecker of Thoroughbred Motors has just built 4 more kits. One of the buyers stopped buy today and all I can say is that the quality was first rate. Improvments were made throughout. Also he has a turnkey all but completed as well. He is having steel front bumpers made and chromed. I believe that the steel front bumpers seen on the current batch up Speedster Gullwing were bought from Gil. The steel rear ones are early VW (suggested by me). Although he left off the overiders, which honestly I think adds a bit

johnm

All, we have tried to stay out of the "fray" and go about finishing the first car. As we have tried to say all along we are working on creating a world class recreation and have put much blood, sweat, and maybe a tear or two along the way. No, we are not ready yet. Yes, we have been stalled over the last 2 years due to financial constraints. However, we believe we are in the home stretch and will have something soon enough. We are being very cautious of timelines as they have come and gone in the past. We are looking forward to introducing the next generation of Mr. Quint's great recreation.

I sent an email about the grill and rear bumper, good to hear about the quality.

krazeyone

kudos to the speedster motorcars, nice covershot and centerfold in kit car magazine. what did you do to the front windshield? it looks different? it doesn't curve around on the ends. more flat? are those vw headlight rings? they look good. keep up the good work!

Speedster Motorcars

Krazyone, thanks for the compliments. We raised the height of the windshield to accomodate taller drivers. As you probably know, anyone over 5'10" tall had limited ability to see stop lights in an original car. Our goal was to produce an iminately drivable "modern" replica of the original car and not a "recreation". The headlight trim rings are a reproduction, though not VW. I am curious about something you may or may not be aware of. A "replica" company based in Mexico is using your photos, and ours, to advertise his "product". He does NOT have our permission to use the photos. If he truely has a "kit", why doesn't he use his own photos?

They will ship you the kit UPS, that should be interesting! Looks like they even have Greg's car.

Speedster Motorcars

The company in Mexico responded to my request and has now removed our photos from their ads. I thank them for that. It is not our intention to be "hard nosed" in this, but we have a lot of money vested in our company. Photographs of our cars are a selling tool for us. We will not allow their use without permission.

i think that place in mexico is a big scam! sounds fishey, and all thier photos are of real cars, or someones photos they stole like mine from this forum.

gullwing

Sounds like Bat Masterson and a bunch of Mexicans have a grand desire to build a company that produces fiberglass parts that can make the bare minimum of an incomplete kit. Obviously they do not have a product yet or they would not be borrowing pictures of Herman's car, my car and a Ron Clarke replica. It certainly doesn't add to their credibility that they have a web site built before they have built anything worth photographing. I for one would be more impressed if I saw a building, a mold and a half dozen doors or bodies then a disclaimer stating where they were in production.

krazeyone

i doubt that they even have any fiberglass parts, sounds like he's collecting money from people in usa and canada, and i bet there is some unhappy customers of his out there. you should read his disclaimers. he wants 50% up front. what are ya gonna do take a vacation to mexico and get your money back, or have your lawyer send him a letter. too funny, but ya kinda have to not feel sory for somebody to fork over 8 - 10 grand for a kit from some no name guy in mexico, and than wonder why they never got back to ya. hey, if i'm wrong i will be the first one to eat my own words. but i did a google search on bat masterson, and the only thing i can come up with is some crazy dude from the wild west, go figgure! lol! looks to me like a monkey in a wood pile! ....... well bat masterson you posted on here before and you claim to read this forum , so proove me wrong!!!! and speedster motors, the photos are still on

willienew

Hi, I am the guy who ran Tonys operation in Gardena and then the company in the island of Jersey.It will be back in operation but as yet is being developed further to cater for European adherence to emission and other registration requirements.All the components will be again available and some will be manufactured in New Zealand as well as Germany.The factory will be in Germany but as yet, production has not begun.There may be a wider option of motors and trans also for those who wish it to move faster! Will keep all who are interested posted on this.

willienew

....and I didnt read back further about the info that Manfred had listed so obviously it is old news, sorry!

Frans

Hi,

Can anyone tell me if there is a Gullwing kit/parts supplier in the area of The Netherlands (Belgium-Germany-UK)I have send email to Matt MAZZ, a Mexican/Spanish and a few other company's but no responce at all.Are these guys for real??

two years ago i was in Germany (Essen Messe) and the Gullwing i have seen there was a replica but based on a VW Beetle chassis.... (Huh) no way!!!!

So if anyone can help me with some usefull tips or better some adress information.

Thanks

Frans van Aalst

Speedster Motorcars

We have ended the first run of Gullwings to fill orders for the other cars we build. We have parts left from the first run which we will sell. Contact me at www.ron@speedstermotorcar.com with your parts needs, maybe we can help.

If you really love the looks of a 300SLR then I suppose the Thoroughbred Kit is a starting point. There really aren't any other options. You have to keep in mind though that the drive train is a mustang II (can you say Pinto!). Yeah I suppose that you could upgrade all of the componants but the engine is 140 hp 302 Ford. The brakes are minimal. The springs, shocks, trans, differentials are all cheap economy versions.

needamerc

Thanks for that very good info. I definitely don't needamustang.

paul hollstein

quote:Hi,

Can anyone tell me if there is a Gullwing kit/parts supplier in the area of The Netherlands (Belgium-Germany-UK)I have send email to Matt MAZZ, a Mexican/Spanish and a few other company's but no responce at all.Are these guys for real??

two years ago i was in Germany (Essen Messe) and the Gullwing i have seen there was a replica but based on a VW Beetle chassis.... (Huh) no way!!!!

So if anyone can help me with some usefull tips or better some adress information.

Thanks

Frans van Aalst

ph

jaysherman

Anybody got any updates on there Gullwing builds? I have not done anything on mine, stated on a motorcycle project instead.

gullwing

This is a picture of Jerry's build. It doesn't look like a Gullwing in this picture.

gullwing

Now that's more like it!

asif_w

Hi all,

I have been reading this forum with great intrest. I have trawled through the net but can't find a replica manufacturer for a 300sl in the U.K, or a Pagoda replica. Is there any such manufacturer out there in the U.K? I have checked the other companies mentioned and all seem to be in the states or germany.

Any help would be greatley appreciated.

Thanks,

Asif

gullwing

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i237/amcagreg/Mercedeslogo.jpg /IMG " border=0>I haven't heard much on this post as of late.Gil Lonecker has now built a turnkey which he sold to someone in Maine and also a 4th kit went to the mid-west. If anyone knows these guys get them in touch with me. Gil has also announced he is retiring and trying to sell his company.The Mazza brothers are officially out of the buisness.The builder has taken back the molds for lack of payment.Word is that the Gullwing replicas made by the Speedster group are not selling well. I think most agree that the problem is the departure from the oriinal lines as the fit and finish are first rate.

johnm

To "Gullwing" and all other interested parties:

M-Wing Motors is not out of business. I had attempted to contact palmyraer@aol.com directly but am getting a bounce back on the e-mail. If anyone has any questions, please feel free to send me @ info@mwingmotors.com.

We have been upfront throughout the forum posts and hope to have our first car completed in 2008. Yes, it has been a financial struggle, but we believe our final product will be worth the effort.

Gullwing, please send me an updated e-mail so we can communicate properly...thank you.

John

gullwing

I spoke to John Mazza of M-wing motors. They have had some quality control problems that they needed to solve before they could produce a consistently high quality machine up to their standards. They have solved their problem by contracting with a company with a long record of building high quality specialized Corvette bodies.We also spoke at length regarding sources for the specialized Gullwing parts. Tony Ostermeir had the luxury of using mostly original Gullwing parts. As the cost of these part rose and the availability dwindled it forced him out of buisness. M-wing has been negotiating with the half dozen or so companies that manufacture parts. Hopefully this will spread the tooling costs out so that everyone benefits.

Gullwing007

I have been reading these forum pages with interest, mainly because I too, believe the gullwing is the most beautiful classic design. Had the pleasure of driving a high quality replica in Germany with everything MB parts including the leather. Several replicas were built as far back as '79. In Europe, this was the only way to get a GW as most of the originals were in the USA. The replica I drove was actually well received by MB-Germany. Will try to add my pix next time.

gullwing

I have no desire to put a Mercedes engine in my kit car so I have a hard time when I find that so many people will pay more for a replica Gullwing with a mediocre Mercedes motor. It would be one thing if it was a 6 cylinder Mercedes that was mounted at 45 degrees and some attemp was made to simulate the appearance of the original engine or a supercharged V-12 MB AMG motor. Most of the replicas used a fairly basic inexpensive straight 6 or V-8 with an automatic transmission which could never be confused with an orininal 300SL motor. Yet buyers will pay more for it. Go figure! I hear the same thing from the Cobra guys. You can build a replica Cobra with a 500+ HP aluminum Chevy 427 and the correct Cobra transmission yet it will not sell for as much as a replica Cobra with a plain vanilla 5.0 small block with "Cobra" valve covers and an automatic transmission. Human nature is strange sometimes. I understand how a German living in Germany would prefer a MB because it is easier and cheaper to repair and get parts for but if you put a direct port fuel injected straight 6 BMW motor with a "MB" logo on it it would be just as easy to repair and it would actually have more similar technolgy but still it won't command as high a price.

Alumreplicas

Gentlemen, there is an aluminum 300SL (GullWing) in the works and due sometime in late 2008 using a proprietary frame and very likely a modern MB engine and trive train. Expected retail is $190,000 let me know what you think about this. Consider that there are some used, well made fiber glass replicas available right now in the vicinity of $200K. What would you be looking for in this car at this price if you were shopping?

Please feel free to call me at 305-525-5636

Love your kids and everything else will fall into place!!

dukeofkastro

hello,i am living in europe and i am very interested to buy a new or used gullwing. anyone knows a builder tht makes turnkeys?thanks

SpeedsterMotorcarSales

Speedster Motorcars is once again in the hands of the original owner. Since we are going to concentrate on building our Boattail Speedsters and our Cord Speedsters, and for a lack of space in our new facility, we have decided to offer the Gullwing line as a package for sale. What we are offering is one completed Gullwing for reference, 2 incomplete bodies (painted, some parts), 2 raw fiberglass bodies, molds, jigs, tooling, vacuum molds, and our full gullwing parts inventory. If anyone is interested, please email me at jeff@speedstermotorcar.com or call me anytime at 727-584-3606 for more information. Thanks.

HI To all, I'm looking to buy a gullwing replica or kit which one is recommended! and are there any Aluminum bodies out there!Im based in europe but have no problem with buying from the states and would like to use MB parts.

Jones

SpeedsterMotorcarSales

We have one Gullwing 'Kit' left for purchase. It is 75% complete. Painted PPG Brilliant Red. Has a full raw chassis (no suspension) that is designed for late model GM drivetrain and suspension but you can choose to add whatever drivetrain you like. The body is fully assembled, doors fitted and hung, deck lid fit and hung, as well as the hood. The doors are completely assembled with manual roll down windows, door latches and hardware. Glass is installed. The kit comes complete with a long list of parts to finish the car, from AC unit to fuse panel, from steering column to taillights, there is a lot there. If anyone is interested, please email me and I can provide photos and full parts list. Thanks. jeff@speedstermotorcar.com 727-584-3606

IĀ“m looking for old picĀ“s of the Gull-Wing Shop in CA, Gardena.IĀ“ll be thankful if somebody can help me out or give me some advice.

Bye James.

mercmatt

hi guys very keen to build a gullwing,,, who is still doing them and who can i trust with an accurate replica shell,,,any help would be great

my merc my dream

Folke

Hallo all Gullwing-builders,The place to search for ANY part you might need for your replica is www.niemoeller.de/300SL/. It's located in Mannheim in Germany and they have absolutely everything but the prices are skyhigh and then some!

jozzze2000

Hello!

I am Joze from Slovenia. I am gathering infos for making Mercedes 300SL replica.I found out (on kitcars forum) that you were/are assembling your own replica.

Would you car to share some photos and details along with parts hunting about your project.

I tried to reach @gullwing does anybody know his email address.

Thanks, Joze

jasonflord26

quote:This is a picture of Jerry's build. It doesn't look like a Gullwing in this picture.

wow this one nasty engine works

Jason Flord

dan2

I just finished my gullwing.has anybody else finished theirs.i posted pic. on flicker under gullwing01dont know how to post on forum.

dan2

isnt any body interested in the gullwing anymore.what happened to krazyone,gullwing,jerry,etc.etc.

Jerry should be driving his now, Greg and mine are both in storage as we are out of the Country. Fred sold his on Ebay recently and another body was was also just on ebay. I am not aware of anyone making a kit now.

dan2

jerry;what radiator are you using?im having a heating problim w/mine .im using a mechanical fan.

jaysherman

I am not sure what Jerry is running, I will look through a few pics I have and see what he did. I have a twin electric aluminum shroud (a shroud is a must)and plan on running twin elec fans with a auto kick temp sensor and ac. Check summit or other dealers for a enclosure for a single or dual elec fan setup. Send me an email if you need more info. i can call you from over seas on voip....Jay

dan2

i had baffles put in rad.hopeing this will solve the problem if not i will add a electri fan.i will post later to let you know if this corrected the problem

dan2

the baffles helped i im going to install electric fan also for a little more cooling around town.any went to C H P and got my vin #.now its to the referee on the 23rd for smog check.i will keep everybody posted

dan2

the electric fan helped out quit a lot.went to referee and got my smog cert.one more stop at light/brake then its back to dmv for my plates

gullwing

I moved to New Zealand 2 years ago and my Gullwing has been in storage. Last week I finally arranged to have it shipped to my new home. So I am real excited!So yeah I havn't been able to do much more on my car. When I left it I was getting ready to fire up the engine but sidetracked myself by working on the dashboard. I was not impressed with the quality of fit and finish of the dash provided by Gil. So I made a light aluminum frame similar to original (except it bolts in and out) Then made a mold for a very original fiberglass dash. The only exception is to add very descrete air conditioning vent louvers at the lower edge.I have also been able to buy a few original 300SL parts that are so seldom available. I was able to find an original vent window hinge, the rear latch for the side window, the heater controls, ash tray and several original VDO guages. I have a complete set of modern electronic guages. They are great. The original VDO gauges used analog guages for speedometer, tachometer and oil pressure. So that is somewhat of a pain. I will try to copy the face of the original VDO guages and put it on my gauges. Still need a speedometer to copy though. I have found a friend in New Zealand who builds carbon fiber boats. He has agreed to help me makes some carbon fiber doors moulded from my chop-gun made fiberglass doors. One thing that became apparent is that the doors absolutely need to be rigid to work right. Problem is that the stiffer the doors then the heavier they are. Hand layup fiberglass doors get to a weight that they are almost too heavy for the door springs. The chop-gun doors are too heavy, too flimsy. So if I have to make door moulds then make new doors then I will use carbon fiber, epoxy resin and some hex-cell filler. The doors WILL be strong and WILL be light and I will be using original glass not lexan.

Greg

gullwing

original dash

gullwing

This is my gold standard! The dash from the GMBH replicaNote the 3 LEDs in the speedomter. Also all of the indicator lights are the same size which looks better then the original. Don't you think the high beam indicator should be blue? The hole in the dash is different as well.

Apparently working with a bigger budget than me. The steering wheel sells for about $2,000. The steering wheel center cap for ~$600. You can use the 190SL cap which sells for ~$250 but it doesn't have a chrom rim. The guilloche plate is ~$3,000 ouch!!

gullwing

This is my dash. The guages are from vintage guage. I think they look good but I will change the face a indicator needles. I have a black plastic know on the headlight switch. I will have to locate 2 chrome ones. I don't have the guilloche plate but in my opinion a piece of turned stainless looks nicer anyway. Note the non-original vent louvres on the bottom.

Coolvet

Does anyone know of a 300sl roadster kit that can be purchased and fitted to a late model Mecededes SLK? I don't want to get involved in a major project like building a gullwing but I really like the idea of using an existing SLK55 and fitting front and rear fenders, hood, trunk, bumpers, chrome work etc from a 300sl to the slk.

Can anyone point me in the right direction?

Thanks

Carey

gullwing

The Scheib company in Germany makes a roadster replica built upon a SLK donor but as far as I know it is not sold in a kit form. Lonestar in Texas makes a 300SL roadster replica as well. No kit though.

Greg

beiland

quote:I moved to New Zealand 2 years ago and my Gullwing has been in storage. Last week I finally arranged to have it shipped to my new home. So I am real excited!Greg

I've just been reading thru this subject thread today and haven't finished yet.

My interest in the 300 Gullwing stretches back MANY years...almost bought a wonderfull original back in the 70's, but didn't have a place to keep it at the time,...and was too much on-the-run around the world at the time. http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/83490-post49.html

One of my thoughts at that time was if you really wanted to promote this alternative-fuel tech here in SE Asia, why not put such a power plant into a replica 300 Gullwing,....particularly since the highest per-capta ownnership of MB is in Singapore.Flywheel and Electric Pkg in 300 SL gullwing http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/83550-post56.html

So I am now living part time in Thailand and the thought of a replica 300 Gullwing has entered my mind again. i know of a few fiberglass boatbuilder here that could produce the bodies. Just wondering about what sort of list for the most difficult parts are to get for a kit gullwing project??...I know i have heard glass is one, but I'm betting that with all of the huge amount of car building here in Thailand, that somewhere it could be built right here?

....first posting, so I'll stop hereregards, Brian

beiland

quote:It would seem that there should be a way of creating the molds and tooling for the various Gullwing specific parts (glass, brightwork, switches, etc) so that, as with the Ostermeyer cars, the parts are interchangeable with the real cars. While expensive to do, one would certainly have more of a market than just the kit builders to recoup costs.

I wonder if that is possible here in Thailand?

beiland

quote:As I have been working on my kit for about 18 months now let me give you some observations. Although it might seem to be the hardest part the frame and body are actually the easiest part. You do need a donor Gullwing and it is a lot of hard work but once done you can sell a frame and body for about $20,000. The truly difficult part is all of the specialized Gullwing parts. Where will you get the glass? Neomoeller's or Mercedes Resource Center will supply this but the price is huge. Say $5,000 for a windshield. There are 8 pieces of glass to buy. You can not make the glass yourself so you either pay huge amounts of money, make them out of Lexan or contract to have a run of original glass made. Tony Ostermeir had Pilkington glass make a run. I don't know the particulars but I think it was 100 sets (minimum). Tony bought 30 sets which he used and Pilkington sat on the rest. They stored them for 10 years then trashed most of them as they were simply in the way and did not sell.The rear bumpers- Toney had them made in Taiwan or somewhere. There are something like 5 pieces. So he probably had $20,000 tied up in the molds. The list goes on and on. If you think you can make 100 rear bumpers and re-coupe your cost MAYBE. You would need a market though. The 1,200 original Gullwings out there mostly have bumpers or they will pay Meercedes Resource Center to build them a certified exact replacement for $10,000. So you need a growing kit car market to create a demand. The kit car market is stymied by the lack of good quality replacement parts for at a reasonable price. So, it is a catch 22. If several people jumped into the buisness then in my humble opinion the Gullwing could be as popular as the Cobra. You can build a nice Cobra for $25-30K. At this time I doubt that you could build a nice Gullwing for $60K.I have spoken with Hermann Quint many times. He was able to do it. His car were beautiful. What many of you don't know is that he made almost 30 and that they evolved over the years. They started out as cut down Corvettes. Later he used Mercedes V-8 drive trains on a custom frame. They looked gorgeous no question about it. But exact replicas they weren't. Can you tell me what rear windows he used or what side window? I know and he was quite ingenious. Did you know that the vent window gasket is available from Mercedes but cost $900 each! Most of us cant afford that.As far as the orignal valve train?Does a modern Mercedes V-8 sound even remotely like a straight 6 mechanically fuel injected 198 engine? The closest engine I could thing would be a early jag straight six or a 240Z. I have seen Chrysler slant six used used. Does anyon think these look, sound or drive like an OHC Mercedes motor? Most if not all of Hermans cars were automatic transmission.It is apparently what sells best. Not my cup of tea.

Toney's parts are tied up in bancruptcy (again) this time in the island of Jersey off the English coast. So we can't expect much help there.The Mazza Brothers, God bless them, have great intentions and I am sure are honorable people. However they are still bogged down in the body/frame part of the build. I have not heard what they intend to do for door latches, door hinges, trunk latches, grills, side molding, dash molding etc., etc. Their web sight is truly impressive. They make it clear that they are building their first wo cars now however it isn't apparent to the viewer which photos theyy are showing are from an original Gullwing and which are from someone elses reproduction.Yes there are a few 190SL parts that can be used. I have a list for anyone interested. A good quality 190SL grill goes for $2,000 but at 20 feet you can tell it is not from a 300SL. That is but one example.

In order for someone to succed in the Gullwing replica buisness they will need a lot of financing and a really well thought out buisness plan. Even Tony Ostermeir despite his long success ran out of capital at some point.Starting out with a kit car would allow you to recoupe some of your investment as you went along. The only person doing that is Gil Lonecker. He unfortunately is undercapitalized and I would not even want to comment on his buisness plan on a public forum. He has however succeeded in destroying any credibility he has which I find terribly sad.

Greg

Interesting posting Greg....and a lot of truism. I just had to bring it forward in the forums.

beiland

quote:Here are Als pics.....

I'm still had trouble accessing these images?...what am I doing wrong?Can't the photos be displayed on this forum, or do you have to go offsight?

beiland

quote:not in germany, that was just a goof. i'm in connecticut, lol. at this point i don't think i want to go the route in selling turnkey cars. at least not at this point in time. i really want this to be a quality kit. it's very labor intensive at this point getting the body perfect, so when i make kits it will fit together. i'm preparing the body so all the gaps will be perfect and i'm not thinking of selling you a kit all in pieces. all the body pannels such as doors hood trunk are inner and outer pieces. i want to laminate and possibly pre-hang the doors trunk and hood. so that i know when you get it, there is nothing that can come back and bite me in the butt. i really want people to be able to finnish it once they get it. that is the most important thing! it really is about quality not quantity.

Can you send me photos, and latest details on your project, directly to my email? If so I'll send it to you.regards, Brian

beiland

quote:Hi All you guys out there,

I CAN solve the mystery of the "Gullwing" project - it is now installed in an auto complex in Germany and being readied to be put back into production - both Gullwing and Roadster. All of the parts, tooling, part built cars, etc.,etc. have now been unpacked, sorted, logged and readied for production. The company involved have had a long and enviable history in the replica car industry [ 25 years ] and are one of Germany's major current manufacturers.

They have recently moved to a 5 acres site with all facilities on site to produce cars.

Go to www.gullwing.ch for more details. The site is available in both German and English.Manfred von Heyda

Appears as though this outfit is no longer in production....their website is for sale??

beiland

quote: We raised the height of the windshield to accomodate taller drivers. As you probably know, anyone over 5'10" tall had limited ability to see stop lights in an original car. Our goal was to produce an iminately drivable "modern" replica of the original car and not a "recreation". The headlight trim rings are a reproduction, though not VW. Ron ClarkProduction ForemanSpeedster Motorcars10990 49th St. N.Clearwater, FL 33762

I'm having problems finding photos of your Gullwing cars? Can you direct me to a specific location?

Reading thru this subject thread today has been fun and informative on the subject of kit-car Gullwings

Cheers, Brian

beiland

Is everybody that contributed to this subject thread gone?? I haven't received one posted reply to the entries I made?

Hey Manfred von Heyda, are you guys still building 300 Mercedes?

How about the Mazza bros? I believe they were having real financial difficulties, but have they totally abandoned their project,...and the molds, etc.

How about the fellow fron Conn,...Krazeyone was it?

quote:

quote:Hi All you guys out there,

I CAN solve the mystery of the "Gullwing" project - it is now installed in an auto complex in Germany and being readied to be put back into production - both Gullwing and Roadster. All of the parts, tooling, part built cars, etc.,etc. have now been unpacked, sorted, logged and readied for production. The company involved have had a long and enviable history in the replica car industry [ 25 years ] and are one of Germany's major current manufacturers.

They have recently moved to a 5 acres site with all facilities on site to produce cars.

Go to www.gullwing.ch for more details. The site is available in both German and English.Manfred von Heyda

Appears as though this outfit is no longer in production....their website is for sale??

krazeyone

Still here, reading every post. I know the difficulty of the other people, getting everything to make a replica. I think there is a difference between a replica and a kit car, big difference. Everybody has seen those ugly so called lamborghinis. You can tell from 100 yards there is just something not so rite about it. Than there are the other ones that you have to look and see up close to see if it is real. To me thats the difference. The gullwing project I was working on is not dead, it is just sleeping, and will get back on the front burner sooner than later. I believe there will always be a market for these cars as long as it is done correctly, you can't get good money for an ugly gullwing, it has to be perfect or it will not work. I believe it has to be a replica and not a kit car.

arnahtucker

This is really expensive.

gullwing

The purpose of a kit car is to get the price in a range where mere mortals can afford. I think $50,000-$75,000 is close to what it would cost to do. If done right you can upgrade as your budget allows if you do it right. An example of that would be my dashboard. You can see the areas that can be upgraded to make it more exact. I saved $2,000 by not using a front bumper. I can add that latter. I saved $5,000 by using a VW bumber in the rear. If I did not meantion it no one (except krazyone) could tell. Like I said I can always uprade these items later as money becomes available. My opinion is that Speedway Motorcars did it wrong. They changed the original lines of the car so the car would fit the glass. Then they had a car that was well built but couldn't sell for $75,000. What a shame. An exact replica such as an Ostermeir or Quint would have to cost in excess of $125,000. I was really impressed by the recent Gmb replica out of Germany however what happened to them? Never quoted a price either. I am thinking it must have cost over $175,00 to build. A great MB V12 engine would cost about $5,000. That is only about $3,000 more than a plain vanilla American V-8. You can change the engine later. That too is easy. I have a plain ivory phenolic steering wheel ~$400 versus the wood Moto-lita at $2,000.

Hello,I bought my windshield from Classic Autoglas in KĆ¶ln, Germany for $500. It was made by Pilkington in the UK. www.classic-autoglas.comThe rear window is another matter - it's very hard to come by. I bought a used one from HK Engineering in Germany for $1500. New ones are not available according to Mercedes Classic Center. I bought grill and front bumper from Harrington Group(Vietnam). www.groupharrington.com They were made from highly polished stainless steel, have a perfect fit and look very good.Good LuckFolke

gullwing

Yes, for quite some time Pilkington sold the windshields. They were nice but they were thicker? (or thinner?) then original which meant that the original gasket would not fit. Also they came tinted and untinted whereas the other glass was only available untinted. I guess that is all a moot point now as I think Pilkington is out of all 300SL glass. I bought the last complete set from them. The vent windows have the holes in them for the correct original hinges which is an issue if you mount them any other way. So the easiest solution is both vent and side window out of plexi. You can use a VW Super Beetle rear window. It fits well and you would think it correct if you didn't know. It has a concave lower edge whereas the original is convex. It has the added advantage of a heating element.

jaysherman

Thought I would chime in...My Gullwing is in storage and on the back burner but still have it. Staying in Thailand now but will be back in the States around May.

Is this the moment of truth in a Gullwing restoration when the body is once again joined to its chassis? Not quite. We're looking at the bowels of the Mercedes-Benz Used Parts Center and this particular Gullwing body is being crudely removed from its chassis to be crushed and disposed of.

Ever mindful of the impact of poorly conceived replica Gullwings on its heritage brand, Mercedes-Benz recently seized and destroyed a German built Gullwing replicaās fiberglass body. For decades the Silver Star has viewed any road going copy of the iconic Gullwing shape with derision, particularly those with badging as per the original. During the ā80s Tony Ostermeierās generally respected Gullwing Cars operation in California skirted the badging issue by delivering their replicas with altered grille/deck lid star designs and no āMercedes-Benzā or ā300SLā insignias. Predictably, as soon as new owners took delivery of their cars, an original grille star and original insignias were installed. Other replicas employed similar trickery to avoid attention from Stuttgart.

This will no longer be tolerated by Mercedes-Benz. Badging or no, the glorious Gullwing shape is a work of āapplied artā and has been under copyright protection for decades. Itās the enforcement that has been spotty. That is, until 2012. Emboldened by a December 2010 Stuttgart regional courtās ruling affirming the Gullwing designās copyright status, Mercedes stepped up investigating copyright violations. It is not legal to copy the Gullwing design ā at least not in Germany. Gullwing AG, a German firm which planned to introduce a new Gullwing using the original Ostermeier plans and fitted with modern drivetrain, was shut down shortly after the court ruling.

āHowever, as well as the creators of this vehicle copying our parts and designs, the use of the Mercedes-Benz name and logo is in clear contravention of our trademark rights and we will look seriously at this.ā

Unlucky German replica owner

Daimler Mediaās release outlines Mercedes-Benzā attitude succinctly, āA case had arisen in which a company based in Germany had built an unlawful replica of a Mercedes-Benz 300 SL.ā The replica was seized by German Customs officials which may indicate the car was being processed for export. While the entire experience had to be a nightmare for the owner, he/she likely did receive the rolling chassis back after its illicit body was unceremoniously removed and crushed. The issue involved the coachwork only. Case closed for this particular replica.

The offending fiberglass skin awaits destruction. We're not sure who built this car but will try to find out. A serious precedent has now been set in Germany which will undoubtedly send other such replicas, regardless of quality, into hiding.

This photo makes a strong statement indeed. The offending body has been officially destroyed by 'certified equipment' and officially documented with a signed and stamped 'confirmation of scrappage.'

Wheatcroft W125 Recreations Mercedes-Benz Classic speaks out

Stuttgartās attitude toward protecting its cherished Gullwing shape is now clear but how will the Factory react to the specter of not one but five EXACT duplicates (4 open wheel versions and one streamliner) of the epic 595hp 1937 W125 Grand Prix car? Two have been completed and one was featured in a massive article within the February 2012 issue of the superb Octane Magazine. The brainchild of the now deceased historic Grand Prix disciple, Tom Wheatcroft, this project began in 2003 and has VERY quietly yielded two cars. Wheatcroftās plan was to amortize costs by building five, selling 4 and placing the remaining car in his extraordinary Donington Park Racing Car Museum located within Englandās Donington Park racing circuit.

With Wheatcoft seniorās death, son Kevin stepped in enthusiastically and kept the project moving ahead, utilizing the best fabrication shops in the world that conveniently happen to be located in England. This program is producing not just āreplicasā but, according to reports, DUPLICATES of the original car. How is this possible? The teamās mysterious acquisition of 2,500(!) original drawings and access to two of the original cars that escaped the factory into private hands has insured a mind bending level of accuracy. We must credit the extraordinary fabrication and research skills of Crosthwiate & Gardener and master coachwork fabricator Roach Manufacturing as well.

Mercedes-Benz Museum CEO comments

How does Mercedes-Benz feel about this project which comes to fruition the same year it decides to actually race itās W125 in selected top tier historic events? Michael Bock, CEO of Mercedes-Benz Museum GmbH and Head of Mercedes-Benz Classic, responded with a tactful but revealing statement also in Octaneās Februry issue, āThe Mercedes-Benz w 125 is an iconic racing car, and whilst we can see the logic in companies recreating those cars lost forever, like the Auto Unions and Von Tripsā āSharknoseā *******, thereās no justification to create a facsimile of the real deal, especially when these cars are still regularly shown.ā Bock continued by citing trademark issues, āHowever, as well as the creators of this vehicle copying our parts and designs, the use of the Mercedes-Benz name and logo is in clear contravention of our trademark rights and we will look seriously at this.ā

Mr. Bock closes with, āWe support ā at any time ā all collectors of original Mercedes-Benz cars with all the passion, experience and knowledge we have but we have no understanding (tolerance? ed.) for facsimiles of the real deal.ā Strong if slightly veiled words. We have a feeling none of Wheatcroftās W125s will see German soil anytime soon. This fascinating saga centering around the passion for and protection of two of Mercedes-Benzā most enduring and cherished sporting creations is certainly going to evolve. I feel there will be more confrontations ahead.

Advertisement

Kevin Wheatcroft lives the dream of any pre-war Grand Prix nut - power sliding a virtual duplicate of one of the awesome Silver Arrows of the latter '30s Grand Prix era. Why the grainy image? Mysteriously, there is not one image of a Wheatcroft W125 sitting on the web, not even on the websites of the vendors who created it. Hence we use an Octane magazine scan. It's puzzling and quite likely the result of Mercedes-Benz taking a keen interest in projects "in clear contravention of our trademark rights."

Acquied1961

quote:This is my gold standard! The dash from the GMBH replicaNote the 3 LEDs in the speedomter. Also all of the indicator lights are the same size which looks better then the original. Don't you think the high beam indicator should be blue? The hole in the dash is different as well.

Apparently working with a bigger budget than me. The steering wheel sells for about $2,000. The steering wheel center cap for ~$600. You can use the 190SL cap which sells for ~$250 but it doesn't have a chrom rim. The guilloche plate is ~$3,000 ouch!!

great LED lights you got there with your car.

davicho862

I love this car. Anybody could tell me, which one has the exaclt models, with the pieces?

gullwing

The mold that Gil Lonecker had came off an original 300SL. The mold that Herman Quint had came from a replica out of Gil's mold (I believe) so it is accurate as well (2nd gen). The mold Crazyone has is from one of Hermans (3rd gen). The replica that Speedway had was definately altered from original to accommodate different glass and noticeably incorrect at the roofline and doors. I guess it is all a moot point as none of these guys are in buisness any more. Not sure where you could get a body these days. Especially as Mercedes has threatened to crush any replicas their lawyers can get their hands on. No one has "the correct pieces". That has been a major sticking point all along. There is a patchwork of different venders you can use and probably find 50-60% of what you need. Price can be a real issue though. I think I finally have about 98% of all the parts. The side glass and rear bumper are two hard to find items. The window hinges and latches are unobtainable BUT most people give up and figure out some alternative. Same for the vent at the windshield base.

gullwing

Dan asked me to post a picture of his Gullwing.Wel done Dan!

dan2

Thanks Greg.Did you get all 4 pic.? If so could you post the one w/side shot

dan2

Maybe someone can walk me thru on how to post a pic on the forum.My email is danderson@toast.net Thanks

gullwing

another picture of Dan's car

gullwing

nice shot!

dan2

Thanks Greg for posting pic.I'll try photobucket.and see if i can do it myself

gullwing

I just got a copy of a letter from Tom Wolk from Eastern Rod and Custom. They bought Gil Lonergan's mold. Tom confirmed that they are in production and will continue to make bodies. They have chosen to improve the process by using hand layup E-glass instead of the chop gun process that Gil used. A welcomed improvement.

On a similar note is that I have been able to obtain the last of the original window latch/hinge parts. I have a local foundry which says they will help me cast these pieces.

At this point I have the following parts that I can reproduce; door hinges, vent hinge upper, vent hinge lower, vent latch, side window latch, front grill star, side Mercedes logo, dash 300SL logo, trunk 300SL logo, trunk star. I still need to find an original front air intake grill. I think I once found one for sale but the price was more than I could afford.

krazeyone

Not that it's a big deal, but just to clarify, I don't know Gill, or how he got his molds. I do know that Herman had his molds made from a real Gullwing that was shipped to Germany for restoration, picked up at the New York harbor, dissassembled for mold making, than reassembled. Now if I'm not mistaken the car resides in a meuseum in Southern California.

gullwing

Gil Lonecker's mold was pulled off an original car that was disassembled in South Dakota for restoration. I know of no one whothinks that it is anything but spot on. The quality of his lay-ups well that's another thing. No doubt Herman's mold is dead on as well. Where is that mold these day? Do the Mazza brothers still have it? Are they making and selling bodies yet? I think they still have their web site up. Does anyone know?

dan2

The Mazza bros. molds are at advance Composite Products in Harrisburg,PA.When they got the molds they were to flimsy to wrk with so they redid them.They had a body their and it looked real good.they also made the doors better.I guess they owe quit a bit of monies to them asfar as i knowthat's is why the molds are still there.Maybe the bros.can get on the forum and get us up to speed as to what they are doing.They seemed like a couple of good people.

Keystone1961

There are some very impressive replicas on this forum! Hi "gullwing", I have some questions about the parts you mentioned. Can you please contact me at keystone1961@gmail.com? I tried to email you but your kitcar profile seems to be old. Thanks.

CarbonGullwing

Hello everyone,

I recently made a Carbon Fiber Gullwing body and seeing if there was any interest in this at all for a full on custom car and not a replica ( as making it out of carbon then painting over it would be pointless and not cost effective :P )

I have attached a photo so you can see what it looks like. Any questions let me know. thanks for your time.

Wow, thats quite a project! It looks great. What did you use for a mold? Was it taken from an original or recreated otherwise?Cost of building a mold has got to be huge. I assume your intent is to produce some more bodies. Carbon only? or glass as well.

Although I would absolutely love a carbon body I would be content with a hand layed E-glass fiber using epoxy resin. Instead of my chop gun polyester body. I would add though that the doors are a good place for carbon fiber. They absolutely need to be rigid. The front pillar is a little thin. Then when the door is done lightness is a virtue. One issue is the weight limit of the strut. With the original door struts it was only a matter of putting in a stronger spring. With a more modern gas strut replacement there is a weight limit. At least one builder was forced to reject well build doors as they were too heavy. Another was forced to use lightweight plexiglass windows as the original glass with metal frames was too heavy for any available gas shocks.

Greg

CarbonGullwing

I'm not 100% on the mold process as I was hired after the mold was already made. To me and my experience, the mold seems to be off a replica ( cuz who would want to try to make a mold off a million dollar car ) Also, we are trying to see what kind of market is out there and what others would like, there are so many cool types of carbon out there they sky is the limit ( Different colors, types of weave, weave direction ect ect) I have interesting design for the weave now so it looks like its going fast without even moving. The only problem with carbon is it is hard to capture in a photo, you really have to be up and close to see what it looks like.

I have a few tricks of the trade to really stiffen up any part of the car that needs to be, and the joy of carbon as well is you can buy different thinkness and change the weave to do what you need to as well.

Speaking of doors, does anyone know of a place to get doors, bonnet (hood), and boot(trunk) for this car ? As I don't have these pieces for this project.

dan2

I see the Mazza bros.have removed their web site

davicho862

CarbonGulling, can you upload the images again?, I can“t see. Thank you!

gullwing

I don't know if anyone on this forum cares but after almost 4 years of being in storage my kit is finally on its way. I just received word that it has cleared US customs and is on a ship. So in 2 months it will be in New Zealand. I am pretty sure that I can it left hand drive. The question though is do I want to. Ihave been trying to find a replacement steering rack for my Mustang II rack. I know they made a RHD Capri and these cars were built on the same chasis. The question is did they make a Capri with power steering (I have to have power steering). The next question is where do I get one? I already asked Flaming River and its a no go.

gullwing

Oh yeah, if carbon gullwing still needs a mold for his doors PM me.

gullwing

Well the Gullwing successfully made it to New Zealand. It looked pretty pitiful when I picked it up. They broke the right ball joint. No problem. Easy fix.[URL=http://s73.photobucket.com/user/amcagreg/media/photo.jpg.html][/URL]<a href="http://s73.photobucket.com/user/amcagreg/media/GullwingFrame004.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i237/amcagreg/GullwingFrame004.jpg" border="0" alt="Gullwing body lift photo GullwingFrame004.jpg"/></a>

gullwing

There is a complicated procedure in New Zealand to get my car certified. The certifier wants me to take the body off the frame so he can inspect all of the welds. Also they are making me convert it to right hand drive. So, between that and modifications needed to fit the taller and wider hemi I am going to build a new frame. So far so good.Anyo[URL=http://s73.photobucket.com/user/amcagreg/media/GullwingFrame009.jpg.html][/URL]ne interested in buying my previous frame PM me.

The rear IRS is coming along. First I need to mock up the mounting cage then I will weld it into frame. I should have used the Aluminum pumpkin for this it is a lot lighter but it is in the machine shop being rebuild. This iron diff is heavy!

gullwing

I just got some of my parts from the foundry. This is the vent hinge. There are about 12parts done in bronze (not pot metal). I have a lot of polishing to do.

I got a few more pieces from the foundry today for the vent window and side window. There will be a bit of time buffing them up and drilling holes.

dan2

just got thru taking the Muncie 4 spd.and putting in a Tremic T5 w/c out of a '89 Camaro

gullwing

That's great. Are you happier with the T-5? Is it a World Class?I originally had a Ford 302 under my hood. I was looking for an inexpensive T-5 on E-bay and came upon a new T-45 for $400. Seems that a lot of Mustang owners ditched brand new 5 speeds when the T-56 six speed came out. I thought I had caught a real great deal until I found out that the T-45 had an integral bell housing and only mated to the modular Ford engine!

dan2

Drove the car and the trans wrks great.It is a world class.Better shift gate than the Muncie.I should have done this a long time ago

Hi friends,2 weeks ago i found some guy who make body kits for GULLWING. He sell it for 6500 USD and i would like start building. Do you have anybody some documents of chassis and more info or some e-shop for glasses?

finishing up the side windows and vent windows. It has become clear why no one puts replica Mercedes 300SL windows in their replica. It is just hard work. Next step; send to platers to make them beautiful.

krazeyone

Been a while since I was on here. Saw a kit car 300 SL Gullwing for sale on ebay. It was on a SLK chassis, looked ok, but could have been done better. Why would you leave those wheels on it? Anyway, he wants way too much money for a rebodied SLK. Should have taken the 90k and ran! I'm at it again, went to California and took Quints last body from his molds, and drove them back to Connecticut. Been working diligently to make a perfect plug, almost done! I have many pics, but putting pics on this forum are impossable. Why can't there be a button to just upload a pic?

jaysherman

Welcome back crazyone, been a while for all of us...

dan2

Getting ready to take off the TBI and install a TPI

dan2

I forgot how to upload pic from photobucket.can anybody help me out

krazeyone

I have a lot of pictures that I would like to show, but you shouldn't have to go to photo bucket to post a pick, it's a very stupid way of doing it, kinda 2002ish?

gullwing

keep trying guys. It is more difficult than it needs to be to post pictures on this site. Having said that I would love to see what you guys are up to.

Admin

Because of potential viruses etc... we do not allow uploading of pictures within the forum section...

HOWEVER... that should not be a problem.

You can simply host your pictures elsewhere and include them in your post.

What you have to do is have the picture hosted elsewhere.... such as photobucket.comThey offer a free account. You upload your pictures to them.... and it will assign each picture a link.

Then in the forum posting.... you simply include that link between 2 image tags like this:

Ok, that was painfully! I think if you click on that link highlighted in blue above the pic, it will take you to my photobuc kettle account and you can see all the pics, I think?

gullwing

The body looks great. I like that you put a flange on the lower edge to make a removable lower piece. What are your plans for this body? Are you going to be building these and selling them? (how much?) or are you building a finished car?

krazeyone

The flange you see is how Mercedes made the car. The lower rocker panel is removable. When you remove the chrome strip, it reveals the bolts to remove the lower panel. The lower rockers will be molded seporately. Figured I would do the hardest part first. The doors, hood and trunk are already fitted to body with the proper 3/16gap. That's the reason for the structural skeleton under the plug, that's where it HAS to stay until the body molds are done. Ad far as selling a body, that's a scary proposition, than all the hard work is done for somebody to make their own molds and sell them for half price and I'm sucking wind. Not gonna happen. Looking into building 1 or 2 complete running and driving replica Gullwing a year

gullwing

I know the admin tries to make this seem so simple but every time I try to post a picture on this site I have to relearn the system.I clicked on the 6th icon (the photo) then I get two IMG markers.I go to photo bucket and copy the IMG file. I then paste it between the two IMG markers. Still nothing. What a pain.

for the people that make you go on photobucket to put pictures on here because you dont want any viruses, I want to personally thank you, now every time I go on photobucket on my cell phone I get the you have 30 seconds to "click ok" before your phone self destructs!!!!!THANKS!!

gullwing

okay, I think I finally got this figured out. This is the frame I am working on. Going back tomorrow to work on it. Will have front suspension from Heidt based on Mustang II. The rear IRS is based on Thunderbird SuperCoupe. I substituted 13" Granada front rotors and larger Chevy calipers. In the rear I used the gears and Trak-Lok from the TSC but put it in the aluminum differential from a Lincoln Mark VII. Then upgraded the axles and rear brakes to the 2003 Cobra.

It's a bummer that the certifier made me re-do the frame however it has given me an opportunity to re-engineer some of the design making some improvements. I imagine though that the frame already had more torsional rigidity than anything that ever competed in Le Mans.

krazeyone

Hi everybody. I've decided not to post any more pics here because Photobuckit put some virus in my phone, and I'm not going on that site to download anything. I am making "terrible videos" as my daughter calls them, on my process of making a set of molds for the gullwing. It's better than photos, and I will update often. They are on that you tube site under 300 sl gullwing replica. Make it your favorite, I would put a link on here, but I would have to get another degree in computers

gullwing

Taking my 2nd frame to the recyclers. It seems so sad. A lot of work went into it. A lot learned so #3 will be so much better. We hope to test fit the body tomorrow.

gullwing

Putting the body on the new frame for a test fit. Wheelbase and track width are dead on. The tranny height is a little low. Fortunately there is enough engine clearance to raise the motor mounts. It's really coming together nicely.

Making some real progress this week. Finished 38 mm dies so am putting in curved pieces instead lots of diagonal pieces welded in. Located a new steering rack that is dead on. So hopefully no or minimal bump steer.

So today we welded in the motor and transmission mounts. Looks like the top of the valve covers is not going to clear the firewall top frame bar. I can't lower the engine any lower then I already have.

Today we put the body back on to test fit everything again. All suspension components are fitting well with plenty of room in full bump and full droop. Looks like the foot pedals/ brake/ clutch/ master cylinder will all fit well as well. Need to re-do the side bars as they don't follow the body contour. Bad news is that my new steering rack will not work. What a pain.

today we finished installing the IRS. Lots of fitment issues but in the end we got it. The plasma cut pieces definately are a nice touch. It would have been a better photo if the coilover and springs were seen.

Getting there step by step. Working through fitment issues. Can't fit valve covers on due to height of ARP studs things like that. Still need to do a lot of fiberglass work on doors.

KDanIt

That's a lovely car at the end of the last page.How much did you paid for it? Are you selling this car or keeping foryourself?

gullwing

The cost of building this replica can be quite deceiving. You could probably get a body for less then $10,000 or a frame and body for $18,000 the real cost lies in all the unique "300 SL gullwing" parts.It doesn't seem like it would be so but there are door hinges, door latches, glass, window gaskets, glass trim rings, window frames, window hinges, latches, grills, bumpers, Mercedes logos, dash trim. If you buy these parts from Mercedes the cost will exceed $100,000. If you source them otherwise about 1/2 that. The Speedster replica attempted to avoid the expense by building a replica without those parts. The results was a Gullwing replica that never looked quite right. They made 23 and had a hart time selling them for $90,000. Mine I will keep.

Folke

Hi, my first appearence at this forum was in April 2010 and since then I've been building on my replica. Finally it's ready. I have a 3 litre, 190 hp, Merc sohc engine, 5-speed gearbox and a Merc 3.07 multilink rear end. You can see the car at www.gullvinge.simplesite.com. Observe the neon sign on the roof!Folke