June 21, 2009

Michèle Belot , Jan FidrmucBoth in the UK and in the US, we observe puzzling gender asymmetries in the propensity to outmarry: Black men are substantially more likely to have white spouses than Black women, but the opposite is true for Chinese: Chinese men are half less likely to be married to a White person than Chinese women. We argue that differences in height distributions, combined with a simple preference for a taller husband, can explain a large proportion of these ethnic-specific gender asymmetries. Blacks are taller than Asians, and we argue that this significantly affects their marriage prospects with whites. We provide empirical support for this hypothesis using data from the Health Survey for England and the Millenium Cohort Study, which contains valuable and unique information on heights of married couples.

Yes, I'm sure height plays a role, as I wrote in 1997 (citing height along with hair length and muscularity as visible differences) but black and white men are almost identical in height in the U.S. (Non-Hispanic white men are 0.4 inches taller on average than black men.) Moreover, Asians appear to have been getting taller at a fairly fast rate, both in Asia and in America, while whites and blacks have barely been getting taller. (White men age 20-39 are only 0.4" taller than white men age 40-59.)

And yet the Gender Gaps did not shrink between the 1990 and 2000 Censuses.

Black women have seemed to be getting fatter, while black men have tended to stay in decent shape. Among blacks 20-39, women now have larger waists than men, which can't help black women in the mating market.

Lets face it, white women are best looking women on earth. Everyone competes for white women, while no one really wants black women. Whoever has the money and status gets the white women. There's a reason there's a market for Russian wives but not for African or Guatemalan wives. Every man in the world wishes he could have a blond hair Nordic Goddess. And that's all YOU need to know....

I guess that surprises me. I always felt like there were more taller black guys than taller white guys. Could it be that the bell curve is just wider for black dudes? More short black guys, but more tall black guys? I wouldn't know where to find that data.

Height is probably a factor. I'd say personality predispositions (e.g. black women are excessively dominate well that's a nice way of putting it and Asian men tend to be more passive) are important as well (I'm sure you've discussed this in ohter posts on this subject). Also, black women tend to have a body type that only black men seem to be attracted to.

Though lately, I've moderated my stance on beauty being objective. I think in a given time period and culture, beauty is largely objective (e.g. Megan Fox is objectively attractive in modern America). Though considering the significant evolution of beauty throughout the centuries, like corpulence and not low fat ratio was once considered beautiful because it meant one was high-class, I can't say identification of beauty is defined solely by our evolutionary history.

Tim Harford has talked about the reaction of black women to the shortage of black men in the mating market. The basic gist is that they get more education and careers that can support themselves without a husband, dispense the milk more freely with a lowered expectation of cow purchasing, and tolerate more infidelity on the part of their spouses. Getting fat would seem to be contrary to what's expected, as they can't afford to lose any more value. One possible explanation is along the lines of Charles Karelis' "dented car" theory and the book "Promises I Can Keep": they've resigned themselves to their position and decided to enjoy themselves foodwise.

The biggest factor might be immigrant/native born divide for Asians. The gap is reduced for American born Asians to 36:45 male: female out marriage. ( http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/daily/dec98/melt29.htm )

Obviously, this has little to do with height. Black men are more masculine (they have more testosterone) than white men, who are themselves more masculine than East Asian men. East Asian women are more feminine than white women, who are themselves more feminine than black women.

Normal women look for masculinity in partners, normal men look for femininity in partners. Case closed.

To see just how little this is related to height, consider the stereotypical pairing of Mediterranean men and northern European women. Stereotypically Med. men are both shorter AND more testosterone-addled than northern European men. Result: lots of short swarthy man/tall blonde woman pairings.

Black women still get pregnant though. They just have trouble actually getting a man. The Asian guys get put in a bad situation, but that said I haven't seen very many unmarried Asian guys past the age of 35. Maybe they strike out in the dating market here, but just get someone from back in the old country or whatever.

Totally anecdotal, but my neighborhood has a large number of black male-white female interracial couples, and the guys are to a man tall, muscular dudes while their wives are mostly curvy and very feminine. The men mostly have high-paying blue collar jobs like teamster driver or contractor and their mixed-race kids tend to be very attractive and gregarious and at the top of their schools' social hierarchies. A future generation of Alicia Keys and Lenny Kravitzes in the making.

"Black women have seemed to be getting fatter, while black men have tended to stay in decent shape. Among blacks 20-39, women now have larger waists than men, which can't help black women in the mating market."

Wow, that's pretty damning. I wonder if soon they'll start to weigh more on average than the men as well. That would be awful.

In my experience, it seems to be a case of extremes. I live in a heavily black area (no pun intended) and I don't see many black women who are merely chubby or overweight. The vast majority tend to be either fairly thin or catastrophically obese. On the other hand, there are plenty of overweight white women but few refrigerator-sized abominations. Hispanic women seem to be the most likely to be overweight or even obese, but they also rarely achieve the blimp-like proportions that seem fairly common among black women.

That might drive up the average for black women since they can only be so thin, but can apparently be almost infinitely corpulent. Maybe it has something to do with that vaunted genetic diversity in the black population? Perhaps they have a greater level of sexual dimorphism with respect to body fat? Both of those explanations seem plausible. Another possible reason for the disparity between men and women is that many black men are employed as manual labor, which would obviously inhibit weight gain.

Half Sigma, you are incorrect. Everyone should really read Peter Frost's blog, he has improved my knowledge and thinking substantially on this topic. From him:This preference may also have been crowded out by other mate-choice criteria. Vilakazi (1962, pp. 59-60) states: "The traditional Zulu does not make physical beauty a first priority or even an important qualification in a wife; and the skin colour of the woman is of little importance." In a rating study, Dixson et al. (2006) examined mate-choice criteria among subsistence farmers in Bakossiland, Cameroon, including preferred skin color of a potential female partner. No consistent preference emerged. This ambivalence was noted by Ardener (1954, p. 72) among the Ibo of Nigeria:

In the choice of a wife, yellow-skinned girls are regarded as beauties, and, other things being equal, they command higher bride prices. On the other hand it is generally held, especially by dark-complexioned persons, that yellow-skinned people are not as strong as the dark and do not live as long. A 'black' girl is said to be a harder worker. … A Mission headmaster was of the opinion that the preference for yellow girls was greater nowadays than in his youth. He thought that the reason for this was that people formerly looked for strength rather than beauty and tended to marry black girls. He claimed that black people had greater powers of endurance, and he cited his own village where, he said, of the oldest six or seven people, only one was yellow.

Sub-Saharan Africans don't have to be as prudential as Europeans do in their mating choices; one, because the variance of male fitness in polygamous societies is higher, men have to take on relatively riskier strategies and mate with more frequency on the sly so as not to be eliminated from the gene pool. Second, because the division of labor is as such, they will be both attracted to features perhaps selected for among European women, AND wives who are strong enough to stand to do good work in farming, so there is also another attraction to increased musculature, or much better put, "junk in the trunk". It doesn't have to be an either-or, because food provisioning by females to raise their children is easier than in other geographies and thusly requires substantially less male parental investment.

Anonymous: my neighborhood has a large number of black male-white female interracial couples, and the guys are to a man tall, muscular dudes while their wives are mostly curvy and very feminine.

Half Sigma: When you see a mixed race black man white woman couple, the white woman is usually heavier than average. Black men are rarely interested in skinny white women.

Well, that would account for why Seal married that disgusting pig, Heidi Klum. And so on for every other hip-hop artist who's decided to forego supermodels in favor of the 30+ BMI set.

Stuff like this really puts all the equally fact-free jabbering in the HBD community about high-fat diets and global-warming skepticism into perspective. See, I hadn't realized previously that, among the B-listers, it was all just being made up as you go along....

The huge disparity of out-marriage rates between East Asian females and males in this country is interesting case to consider within your pet theory. How are those facts not a direct attack on the "ethnic genetic interests" of Asians by Whites, if that term is to mean anything, if y'all are appropriating their women to such an extent that I might uncritically say that it is almost tantamount to genetic murder. Thousands of hapless and probably undeserving men must now war against the natural wants of the flesh with only artifices of technology to help. I'm sure countless bloody wars have been waged in the past against such unprincipled offenders over lesser pretexts.

Can I be a really mean person here and ask if anybody ever did a comparative study of IQ vs BMI ? Something tells me they would find, on average of course, an inverse-proportional relationship. I remember sitting at a terrace in the trendy Plateau Mont-Royal area in Montreal, and not seeing a single fat person for 30 minutes among the mostly SWPL passerby's. You could then go to the largely black area of Montreal-North, and have trouble finding a woman that is not overweight or grossly obese

n/a of the race/history/evolution blog writes about this stuff a lot. He says that there isn't evidence that black men have more testosterone, people just keep repeating stuff Rushton said. Also, white women who marry (or have kids with) black men tend to be bottomrung. This is in accord with other studies I've read showing that black men who marry white women tend to be more educated than their spouses (even though black men in particular tend to be less educated than the general population). That's because (like most women except asians, apparently) white women significantly penalize men of different races, and that has to be overcome somehow (with income being the most measurable way).

I don't think we know enough about sexual selection with regards to beauty to make the confident declarative claims I see here. We know that some elements of beauty are stable while others seem more culture-bound. There are a hell of a lot of variables here.

"I guess that surprises me. I always felt like there were more taller black guys than taller white guys. Could it be that the bell curve is just wider for black dudes? More short black guys, but more tall black guys? I wouldn't know where to find that data."

Correct the bell curve is wider for blacks. There's more shorter blacks, but also more taller blacks. At the 7 foot range, there's a huge number of blacks relative to their population.

East-Asians OTOH are very densely clustered around the 5'6-5'9" range, depending upon which specific group/generation your looking at.

I can't imagine there's a gender/ethnic group displaying more obesity than female mestizo Mexicans. It is rare to see one past the age of 25 who wouldn't be well over the line in the BMI and most of them are already getting there by high school age. They are perhaps the most devoted consumers of copious amounts of fast food in the world -- I think there must be something genetic to their taste for it. Back in the 1980s I had a factory job in L.A. There were about 250 women working there, virtually all Mexican nationals, most I assumed illegal aliens. One day a co-worker of mine (we were frisky young guys, you know) conducted a visual poll and concluded that out of 250, there were exactly 3 who wouldn't be considered overweight by the standards applied to white women. My co-worker, by the way, was a South American immigrant himself, from Paraguay. But he was not surprised to see this so uniformly displayed among mestizo Mexican women. They are apparently renowned for this, even in the Latin American countries. I see a huge demographic balloon in the rate of Type 2 diabetes coming in this country.

Am I just dense or isn't the obvious problem with this study's conclusion the lack of Black male/Asian female couplings? As Steve notes, the height variable is well controlled, do the authors even bother wondering about that?

Generally speaking: A man will get the most physically attractive wife he can afford; A women will get the richest man she can attract.Specifically speaking:Black men tend to see getting into a marriage with a white woman is a signifier of attained status. And a black man's having sex with a white woman is an act of defiance. White women tend to see relationships with black men as a means of upsetting their parents.White men tend to see getting into a relationship with Asian women as being better than living alone.Asian women tend to view marrying white men as an opportunity to dominate.Asian men tend to view mixed marriages in broader racial (less personal) terms -- these represent a pollution of the race.

How are those facts not a direct attack on the "ethnic genetic interests" of Asians by Whites, if that term is to mean anything, if y'all are appropriating their women to such an extent that I might uncritically say that it is almost tantamount to genetic murder.

Dear Tittering Non-WN,

Are there really tons of white guys in Japan, China, and Korea stealing all the ladies? Or are the white guys marrying Asian ladies who are immigrants?

White women are well down the road to becoming black women. Not just their weight but also their self-esteem, which is far out of proportion to what they are actually offering. There is also the 'Sex and the City' double standard where men are supposed to accept and put up with women's bullshit and yet still 'commit' to providing for said women (and if you don't a court will be there to garnish your wages). That men are not bothering with college, marriage and whatnot is a completely rational decision.

The huge disparity of out-marriage rates between East Asian females and males in this country is interesting case to consider within your pet theory. How are those facts not a direct attack on the "ethnic genetic interests" of Asians by Whites, if that term is to mean anything, if y'all are appropriating their women to such an extent that I might uncritically say that it is almost tantamount to genetic murder.

- Billare

Billare, I would love to see a cutoff of immigration from Asia. Once immigration is cutoff Asian females will be in their own country, surrounded by their own men.

"Lets face it, white women are best looking women on earth. Everyone competes for white women, while no one really wants black women. Whoever has the money and status gets the white women. There's a reason there's a market for Russian wives but not for African or Guatemalan wives. Every man in the world wishes he could have a blond hair Nordic Goddess. And that's all YOU need to know...."

It's a little crude to say so, but with the coming extinction of the European people, let's indulge.

... but black and white men are almost identical in height in the U.S.

Here's some anecdotal evidence re this stat: A white female friend and I were walking through a long section of Penn Station in New York one day. Previously, we had a running discussion-joke about the height of black men as opposed to white men. I claimed that there was no significant difference in their heights, that white men were just as likely to be over 6-feet tall as black men, and perhaps even moreso. She insisted that black men tended to be taller. So, during our walk in Penn Station, we decided to pay attention to the mobs of men coming towards us. We were laughing as we pointed out this guy and then that guy.

Well, it turned out that I was right. At least on that particular day, in that particular section of Penn Station, there were far more taller white men, as opposed to medium sized and short black men. Not only were they taller, many of them were hunks. In fact, we wondered out loud if there was some kind of firemen's convention going on in the city to which all these specimens were headed.

The huge disparity of out-marriage rates between East Asian females and males in this country is interesting case to consider within your pet theory. How are those facts not a direct attack on the "ethnic genetic interests" of Asians by Whites, if that term is to mean anything, if y'all are appropriating their women to such an extent that I might uncritically say that it is almost tantamount to genetic murder. Thousands of hapless and probably undeserving men must now war against the natural wants of the flesh with only artifices of technology to help. I'm sure countless bloody wars have been waged in the past against such unprincipled offenders over lesser pretexts.

- Billare"

And how many White Nationalists would be hypocritical enough to marry and/or reproduce with a non-White women? It is probably a higher number than the author of this quote/post thinks.

P.S., any man who's just fine ("what? me worry? No, I'm a winner! It's my grandkids' problem!") with significant levels of outmarriage within his group, especially vis-a-vis women, might want to check to see if his testicles have descended.

And how many White Nationalists would be hypocritical enough to marry and/or reproduce with a non-White women? It is probably a higher number than the author of this quote/post thinks.

And how many Asian men would be hypocritical enough to move to a White country and then complain about the way in which white men date his women? It is probably a vastly higher number than the author of this quote/post thinks.

"Therefore these unattractive white men marry southeast asian women and mexican women. These white men generally stay bitter about being deprived access to white women."

Odd. Most of the white guys I knew who were married to Asian women (including SE Asian women) were middle-class or upper-middle and actually PREFERRED Asian women (to the point of it being practically a fetish).

"And as far as behavior is concerned, white women are at the bottom of my list. They are too feminist, spoiled, demanding, have a sense of entitlement, etc."

Feminism is what happens to women when they don't get any marriage proposals before they are 20.

What 29 year old man that is ready to marry wouldn't rather have a cute 20 year old than a hardened 29 year old?

80% of college freshmen women would rather get married than drink and party and then work some job and date half the county and try to find a husband when they are older, fatter and grumpier. But our idiot culture doesn't promote the heretofore sensible idea that women who are 17 -20 be dating men 25-30 who are reasonable prospects. Instead, they are allowed to date their age peers who are totally unsuitable.

A feminist is a woman you date, etc. until you are ready to get married. She wants to be independent instead of loyal, uh, okay. Then when she is 30, she wants devotion.

I see the same meme on many HBD blogs - the meme is that organizing society so that 29 year old men marry 21 year old women would be better for society, better for the men and better for the women.

This seems plausible to me, but I would like to see some evidence that it actually would have these positive effects.

Can the advocates of this come up with a few examples of successful societies in the current day organized along these lines - for example, are there any high IQ countries, anywhere in the world where this system is in place?

Similarly, are there any groups in the USA that subscribe to this system? Do any types of Mormons arrange for this sort of male female age gap?

(Mormons seems to me to be the group that most rigidly lives according to the rules of of HBD, and the rules of logic. Generally the higher IQ mormons will have more kids than the low IQ mormons. Divorce rates are low. I would go so far as to say that they are ahead of the rest of society in adopting good ideas - so I want to know if they have adopted this idea of a nine year age gap)

"The gap is reduced for American born Asians to 36:45 male: female out marriage. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/daily/dec98/melt29.htm )"

That is, 36 percent of American-born Asian males married out and 45 percent of American-born Asian females did. That's not exactly a huge difference. The out-marriage was most likely to a white partner.

I don't know about that. I saw a beautiful woman of Dutch background who had married an Indian and lived in southern India for many years. She was in her early 60s when I saw her, and she was gorgeous. She was a spiritual type, very out of the oridnary--I don't mean new-agey, just spiritual. Hard to describe. I don't know what she did to take care of her skin in that climate but it was ok. She sort of looked like Catherine Deneuve, only a little fuller in the eyes and lips.It's a common stereotype that blondes age faster, but it has to do with sun exposure. If they have taken care of themselves, they can look among the most youthful you can reasonably hope for.

Can the advocates of this come up with a few examples of successful societies in the current day organized along these lines - for example, are there any high IQ countries, anywhere in the world where this system is in place?

I'd hypothesize that that was the way of the entire West until the cultural revolution of the 1960's. Should be easy enough to determine: average marrying ages for men and women.

And as far as behavior is concerned, white women are at the bottom of my list. They are too feminist, spoiled, demanding, have a sense of entitlement, etc. I'm not the only one who thinks so. Over on Roissy's blog (among many other places) can be found many white men who have completely given up on white women. ==

It's been pretty clear for quite some time that white women have been socially conditioned to the point of being unappealing to vast numbers of men. But if these men had their druthers, they would certainly prefer a white woman over all others -- no matter what they claim. The operative expression in your post is they've "given up on white women." Not that they don't want them in the first place.

Fetish for Asians? I bet! Don't we have fetishes for things considered freaky? What does this say?

When I have time I'll go look up the marriage ages of US presidents and their wives. I seem to remember they are more in line with about a 9 year gap. These marriages are more what I would call optimal vs. just typical.

"Every man in the world wishes he could have a blond hair Nordic Goddess"

The statement might be true today but it was different five hundred years ago. After nearly eight hundred years of Moorish rule the Spaniard's ideal of beauty was a woman with dark hair and dark eyes. The Spaniards could not believe their luck when they landed in the Americas to find women that matched their ideal of feminine beauty.

Whether people used to marry at those ages is not that relevant because the average age of menarche has dropped from as old as 17 to as young as 9 in some areas.

One of the things I learned from reading PUA stuff is that many men are in total and complete denial about the reality of female sexual desire. Women need to get married to tame their sexuality just as much as men do. If it is not socially accepted for people to get married at a biologically appropriate age, they will have disordered impermanent sexual relationships. Stupid young women will breed bastards; smart young women will just get their hearts broken, leading to the hardened, damaged goods females that are available for marriage at the socially sanctioned age.

White men tend to see getting into a relationship with Asian women as being better than living alone.

Asian women tend to view marrying white men as an opportunity to dominate.

Lots of white guys have a preference, based on appearance, for Asian women over white women. For that matter, if they prefer Asians for attitudinal reasons, its that they can be more dominant than most white women would allow. (Though Asian women, and Latin women, may prefer white men to asian men because they're not *as* dominant as the men of their own race.)

n/a of the race/history/evolution blog writes about this stuff a lot. He says that there isn't evidence that black men have more testosterone, people just keep repeating stuff Rushton said.

Does he address the androgen receptor issue?

Penis size is another thing still up in the air AFAIK. Saw a study not too long ago that said there was no significant difference in mean erect length between blacks and whites, though Asians were smaller.

I think the beauty bell curve is wider among white and black women than among east Asian. surely the most beautiful women in the world are white but the median south east Asian woman is better looking than the median white woman. Also though the Mexican Aztec descendants tend to be fat and unattractive other Latin Americans seem to have an attractive median.

"The statement might be true today but it was different five hundred years ago. After nearly eight hundred years of Moorish rule the Spaniard's ideal of beauty was a woman with dark hair and dark eyes. The Spaniards could not believe their luck when they landed in the Americas to find women that matched their ideal of feminine beauty."

"Stupid young women will breed bastards; smart young women will just get their hearts broken, leading to the hardened, damaged goods females that are available for marriage at the socially sanctioned age."

Don't forget breast cancer. Oh yeah, feminists never manage to remember the enormous increase in breast cancer from waiting till 30 to have that first baby. She can go from the really high risk of 8% at age 20, to the insanely high risk of 14.6% by waiting till 30. What a wonderful life. Wait till 30 to start a family and then die while your kids are still in high school. It would be mere sarcasm if I hadn't lost a couple of dear friends that way.

Try the breast cancer risk calculator for yourself!Minutes of fun!http://www.halls.md/breast/risk.htm

Re Svigor:"studies indicate no mean difference in erect penis length between black men and white men..." LOL,who does this work?? "How'd it go at the lab today,honey?" "Uhm,never mind. Any football on? How 'bout that war channel..?"

Wait till 30 to start a family and then die while your kids are still in high school.

One never knows what is superstition (or propaganda for some Cause), and what is real. Surveys done by Montefiore Hospital here in NY find nothing conclusive about women who have had their babies early (in their early 20s), and those who have had them later when it comes to breast cancer.

Josh, I bet they used self-reported data and rely on the honor system for accurate results. After all, no one would ever lie about trivial stuff like penis size and number of sexual conquests. Just ask testy.

"The biggest factor might be immigrant/native born divide for Asians. The gap is reduced for American born Asians to 36:45 male: female out marriage. ( http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/daily/dec98/melt29.htm"

Not exactly. If data from the 2005 American Community Survey is to be believed, there are more 2nd-generation Korean-American women married to White men than there are 2nd-generation Korean-American men married at all! http://www.asian-nation.org/interracial.shtml

And when White women are given the option of "excluding" particular races from their potential dates, they seem to consistently rank East and South Asian men as the least desirable. http://paa2008.princeton.edu/download.aspx?submissionId=80046

"Surveys done by Montefiore Hospital here in NY find nothing conclusive about women who have had their babies early (in their early 20s), and those who have had them later when it comes to breast cancer."

Surveys?

Seriously, please.

The data on breast cancer rates are from the CDC. They track every case of breast cancer in the US. The British health service does the same. So does Finland, Sweden, ... Get real. Real data.

Women who have children early get breast cancer, and women in mid-fertility who have children get breast cancer, and women who have children late get breast cancer, and women who NEVER have children get breast cancer. So what?!

As I said, people who need to embellish superstitions for a purpose -- or a Cause -- will promote anything that fits the agenda.

"[Mestizo females] are perhaps the most devoted consumers of copious amounts of fast food in the world -- I think there must be something genetic to their taste for it. Back in the 1980s I had a factory job in L.A. There were about 250 women working there, virtually all Mexican nationals, most I assumed illegal aliens."

A gene for fast food? Probably has more to do with their income. Factory workers don't eat at the Four Seasons, and McDonalds is easier than packing a lunch.

"Black women have seemed to be getting fatter, while black men have tended to stay in decent shape. Among blacks 20-39, women now have larger waists than men, which can't help black women in the mating market."

i'm sorry but americans in general are getting fatter, my friend that includes white women...and why are you so concerned about the supposed status of black women in the dating market anyway i wonder? Have you ever even dated or talked to a black woman for that matter, probably not.

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