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Thursday, 21 May 2015

The business of genetic ancestry

There is a programme going out next Tuesday 26th May on BBC Radio 4 on the "business of genetic ancestry". The programme is presented by Dr Adam Rutherford and includes interviews with Professor Mark Jobling from the University of Leicester, my colleague Professor Mark Thomas from University College London and yours truly! You can find further details about the programme here:

The programme will also be available on the iPlayer and it will be repeated on Monday 1st June at 9pm.

I paid a visit to New Broadcasting House at the end of last month to record my interview with Adam. I was interviewed for one hour and 20 minutes, and we had a wide-ranging conversation about the exciting discoveries that can be made from DNA testing but also about some of the problematic press coverage and the dubious claims made by certain companies. Obviously only a tiny fraction of what I said will make the final cut, so I shall be interested to see how it turns out.

In the recording studio with Adam Rutherford.

I have been very impressed with the way that the programme has been made. The BBC have done a lot of research behind the scenes and have gone to great pains to talk to a wide range of people and to present a balanced view showing both the benefits of genetic ancestry testing but also highlighting some of the problematic areas. They invited people from all sides of the debate to contribute to the programme though I understand that unfortunately not everyone who was invited to participate chose to do so.

7 comments:

Debbie Said: "If you listen to the programme do let me know what you think"

I have listened to the program today and it was not balanced.

Debbie is the 'honarary' social media mouthpiece for Mark Thomas and his continuing personally based vendetta against Moffatt at BritainsDNA.

In this piece Thomas, as he has done for over 10 years, refers to Genetic Genealogy, with a defamatory and disparaging broad brush by labeling this avocation as faux 'Genetic Astrology'

Debbie makes a bold and unsubstantiated statement that" "our genomes do not correlate with nationalities" and our genomes cannot "have markers being associated as Welsh or Scottish" She was talking about YDNA SNPs and STRs. I disagree with her assertion. The context for the above quotes was about the R1b-L371 haplogroup of David Iwan Jones and with this haplogroup being the top candidate for being 'Ancient British' based on YDNA.

My YDNA haplogroup is R1b-L371 / R1b-S300. 15 of us have taken advanced full genome YDNA NGS tests dating back to 3100BC with likely origins in what is present day Wales and Scotland. In my opinion, and in comparing other younger British haplogroups, R1b-L371 certainly does fit the category as being 'Ancient British'. Shame on Debbie, Mark Thomas, and Adam at BBC4 for disparaging my 'Ancient British' heritage and that of other men in this haplogroup.

They would likely also do this in the USA and say "Ancient Americans" / "Native Americans" are nothing more than long ago Asians.

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/RL371/info

The frequency of R1b-L371 in the USA is about .1% while in Wales it is 35 larger at about 3.5%. Autosomal DNA Tests done on Northern Wales men (Green Squares) by the PoBI group shows this group had the distinct long line of being "Ancient Welsh". http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-g2VFtx6PcBs/VQnWc-aSXAI/AAAAAAAAKBA/pkBC6HzsOls/s1600/BritishClusters.jpg The YDNA haplogroup R1b-L371 also has a distinctive long line with about 43 unique YSNPs associated with it.

But Debbie, let's settle this scientifically so you can quit disparaging those with an "Ancient British" haplogroup.

Mark Jobling is more than welcome to investigate R1b-L371 as being in the 'Ancient British' category.

I will provide him access to all my 15 NGS BAM files and he can also do more NGS testing of the 75 or so PoBI samples to identify the 3 or 4 which are R1b-L371.

I will also personally pay for a YDNA NGS test of David Iwan Jones who is also R1b-L371 and who you do your best to disparage his 'Ancient British' and Welsh heritage.

The ball is in your court Debbie. Maybe you need to consult with Mark Thomas before you put your foot in your mouth anymore.

George, I am nobody's mouthpiece. Mark Thomas is very supportive of genetic genealogy. He is only concerned, as I am, about bad science.

I appreciate your desire to connect with your Welsh and "Ancient British" heritage, but such claims need to be put to a proper scientific test. I have not seen any published studies about L371 in peer-reviewed scientific journals. You cannot in any case assume that the present-day distribution of a haplogroup will correlate with its distribution thousands of years ago. A lot can happen in 1000 years let alone 3000 years. The published POBI results are based on autosomal DNA. The Y-DNA results have not yet been published. The POBI study looked at differences within a population. You can cannot extrapolate from those results to make inferences at the individual level.

Debbie, I am not so much concerned 'about bad science' as I am with 'about your bad and biased journalism.' You do not have education nor experience as a journalist do you? Yet you expound about sound scientific methods and not about sound journalistic methods such as being non-biased, editorial fair, and getting your facts straight.

Even Mark Thomas will admit that lay Genetic Genealogists who use scientific methods are "SCIENTISTS". He's recorded a a conference as saying this.

Have I as a Genetic Genealogist used scientific methods as the head of the 15 member Wales Discovery Group researching YDNA Hg R1b-L371 ... you bet I have. Have we used advanced NGS tests ... you bet we have. Have we ID more than 43 very early SNPs dating back to ~3100BC in Wales or Scotland ... you bet we have. Have we parsed and phased our Autosomal DNA searching for unique Welsh and Scottish markers ... you bet we have. Have we had our research reviewed by other competent Genetic Genealogists with PhDs ... you bet we have.

So, not only do your inpune and disparage my 'Ancient British' Welsh heritage ... you also inpune and disparage my forthright use of testing and scientific methods in Genetic Genealogy. Just because "YOU" have not read something in a peer reviewed academic journal does it mean something is false or misrepresented. Bad logic on your part.

You have to step up to the plate and respond to the above challenge I issued you (and Mark Thomas):"But Debbie, let's settle this scientifically so you can quit disparaging those with an "Ancient British" haplogroup. Mark Jobling is more than welcome to investigate R1b-L371 as being in the 'Ancient British' category. I will provide him access to all my 15 NGS BAM files and he can also do more NGS testing of the 75 or so PoBI samples to identify the 3 or 4 which are R1b-L371. I am open to funding his research. I will also personally pay for a YDNA NGS test of David Iwan Jones who is also R1b-L371 and who you do your best to disparage his 'Ancient British' and Welsh heritage.

I would be more than happy to explain to you as an 'esteemed honorary' UCL colleague of Mark Thomas several things.

But first, how about you explaining why you have not provided a full explanation for things that I asked early of you.

Q1: Debbie says - "For example, it is often the case that Americans come out with much higher percentages of "British" ancestry with these tests than "native" Brits like me." George says - please provide a precise definition of "native Brits". Is it more likely you meant to say with a stiff upper lip "resident Brits"? I can see you seething animosity toward Americans who kicked your King's butt in our Revolutionary War for Independence.

Q2 Debbie says - "I would HOPE that all three companies will eventually be able to have ACCESS to the dataset from the People of the British Isles Project which should give improved estimates for people of British ancestry." George said - "These 3 companies are not recognized academic institutions as Wellcome Trust requires for access to such data." "Wellcome Trust does not want to deal with Genetic Genealogists nor the companies that service tem. Wellcome Trust is into 'Health Genetics' research and not into personal or group based'Genetic Genealogy' in anyway shape or form." Debbie, I requested you to fact check with Wellcome Trust about what you were leading your readers to believe .... have you? You will find out my facts are correct and yours are not. You need to publish a retraction on this or go hire an editor and fact checker to keep you journalistically inline.

Q3. Debbie, please provide me your definition for 'Ancient British' from a YDNA standpoint. Is it for a population group indigenous to the British Isles prior to 3000BC who has ancestors roaming the earth 5000 years later in 2015? Whatever it is, give me your take on what 'Ancient British' is and is not from a timeline perspective. There's alot of Red Square areas in the Autosomal based PoBI study that are not 'Ancient British' ... where as in Northern Wales with the Green Squares are likely the best scenario for those having both 'Ancient British' Autosomal & YDNA heritage. http://blog.wellcome.ac.uk/2015/03/20/image-of-the-week-genetic-map-of-the-british-isles/

As a starter, I suggest you consult with Mark Jobling and ask him his opinions about R1b-L371 being a 'Ancient British' candidate. We all know that the 'Ancient British' had European Continent origins.

Supportive of my criticism of Debbie for not checking her facts is this posted from Anthrogenica.

"Originally Posted by MacUalraig - The M222 group waited 10 years for the breakthrough that Chromo 2 from ScotlandsDNA brought us. It is literally the best thing that ever happened to us. I am not amused by this endless vendetta against them."

Debbie says: "There is no vendetta against BritainsDNA in particular but if they continue to plant nonsense in the press and on TV then it's only to be expected that they will come in for criticism, though the media should accept some share of the blame for publishing such material without checking facts first."

So Debbie, CHECK YOUR FACTS as I suggested in the previous post! Also, you need to insist that Mark Thomas quit spouting off about 'Genetic Astrology' and to end his continuing vendetta toward BritainsDNA. I am not the only one saying that. Thomas is the true embodiment of a 'Mad Scientist' You as his puppy dog are losing what little credibility you had to begin with.

George, I've been tolerant and let you post because I know you have been banned from so many other lists and I suspect other bloggers don't let your comments through but the personal attacks and the rudeness are becoming tiresome. Can I suggest you start your own blog and take your rants elsewhere? I have no interest in knowing whether or not your haplogroup is Ancient British. You're the one making the claims and wanting answers to these questions.

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The material on these pages is copyright Debbie Kennett or reproduced with permission from other copyright owners. It may be downloaded and printed for personal reference, but not otherwise copied, altered in any way or transmitted to others (unless explicitly stated otherwise) without the written permission of Debbie Kennett.