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LM is interested only in getting some quick buck for an obsolete line quite unlike Boeing which is going to great lengths to pick up partners and work with the indian industry even before a possible success for the 18 !!

Lockheed has also picked partners in Tata. They will offer something based on the request and need communicated to them by the MOD just as Boeing has done with their offer to deliver a Naval Fighter to the IN. If the MOD shows interest in higher capability and is willing to pay a higher cost then LMA will have no problem working with GOTUS to see if they can put together a deal for the F-35 just as they are doing in sales campaigns around the world.

kit wrote:Has the F 35 ever been in consideration for the IAF ? ..all the news i see is the contrary.

Brar has answered the latter past of your post. But I can answer the first part. I got it straight from the horse's mouth - from a senior executive at LM - only the F-16 is on offer. That could change, if the Indian Govt learns to ask. They have not asked for it, but they will. The GOI will soon realize that wasting money on F-16 or Gripen E is pointless. Especially when you can get a F-35A for a similar price. And if you buy it off the shelf, with no local assembly, could arguably be cheaper than F-16, Block 70.

The GoI realizes that no one is going to give you ToT, despite what RaGa claims that Congress negotiated with Dassault. The best solution is a G2G deal, but to echo srai again....as silver bullets. You invest in a platform - whether off the shelf or screwdrivergiri - but buy them in small numbers. They are strategic platforms meant for unique tasks. They are like special forces. You don't send special forces to guard the border. That is not their role. In the same vein, you don't buy 100 or 200 F-16s or Gripens, especially when your budgets do not reflect the reality. That is Tejas' job. Tejas is the filler.

kit wrote:Has the F 35 ever been in consideration for the IAF ? ..all the news i see is the contrary . LM is interested only in getting some quick buck for an obsolete line quite unlike Boeing which is going to great lengths to pick up partners and work with the indian industry even before a possible success for the 18 !!

Rakesh wrote:That could change, if the Indian Govt learns to ask. They have not asked for it, but they will. The GOI will soon realize that wasting money on F-16 or Gripen E is pointless. Especially when you can get a F-35A for a similar price.

The Indian Air Force (IAF) is considering the possibility of an order for the F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter, according to sources in the Ministry of Defence.

With deliberations at an early stage, it is understood the IAF will be writing to ask for more information on the fifth generation fighter.

India has been involved with the development of the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) – a version of the Russian PAK-FA/Sukhoi-57 fighter, but the IAF has lately been concerned about the uncertain prospects of the program.

The IAF has also been contemplating a new contest for a single engine fighter between the Saab Gripen and the Lockheed Martin F-16 under the provisions for strategic partnerships incorporated in Chapter 07 of the Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP). However, no Request For Information (RFI) has been forthcoming so far. StratPost also understands there is new thinking on this, with the possibility that the Government of India might forego a tender process in favour of a direct, government-to-government order for an aircraft.

Although the F-16 and the Gripen have been the favourites for the IAF, not least because of their Make in India proposal to set up assembly lines for the aircraft in India, it remains undecided if this new move is intended to replace or supplement plans for either a Make in India fighter aircraft assembly line in India or the FGFA program.

At any rate, there will be several issues to resolve before a conversation can take place on an Indian F-35 order.

https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 1770832901 ---> It was in 2008 that this SECRECY CLAUSE with France was signed for Rafale by the UPA Govt. Then in 2018, the Congress comes back and starts asking the NDA govt why this secrecy clause exists and accusing them of wrongdoing.

@Rakesh are those figures officially released by the government or were they pulled out of the a$$? Improving hit and high performance is something I have never heard of before. Also why would they include hardened air shelters - unless it there only to make it easier for the French to fulfill their offset obligations.

The HOI should for the benefit of parliament prepare a white paper for it, keeping classified details restricted to the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Defence, anx let members compare the two deals/costs for themselves.Fait accompli, and BS from the Oppn. flung in their faces!

When it was the INC lead Govt. which signed the confidentiality clause in 2008, there is no need for this. In fact, some members might just leak details to media or neighbours to the North and West whom they are close to.

It ought to be remembered that it was under the ten-year tenure of the previous Government at the Centre that the earlier initiative of 2002 to meet requirement of the Indian Air Force (IAF) for much needed augmentation of its fighter strength ran aground. In 2012, the then Defence Minister exercised an unprecedented personal veto on the laid down institutional process then underway for procurement of 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA). All this happened when there was an alarming decline in IAF’s fighter strength.

The demand that the Government disclose the details and value of the contract for the Rafale aircraft contracted in 2016 is unrealistic. [In keeping with confidentiality requirements, the UPA Government had also expressed its inability to disclose the price of various defence procurements, including in its responses to Parliament Questions]. The approximate acquisition cost of the Rafale aircraft has already been provided to the Parliament. Provision of exact item-wise cost and other information will reveal, inter alia, details regarding the various customizations and weapons systems specially designed to augment the effectiveness and lethality of the assets, impact our military preparedness and compromise our national security. Such details would also come under the ambit of the security agreement signed in 2008. Thus, in not revealing the item-wise details of the contract, the Government is merely following in letter and spirit the confidentiality provisions of a bilateral India-France Agreement of 2008 signed by the previous Government.

It seems there are people within India and Political, Judicial system and Beauracrats who are tied up with the secuirty establishment with countries in its North and North West.

abhik wrote:@Rakesh are those figures officially released by the government or were they pulled out of the a$$? Improving hot and high performance is something I have never heard of before. Also why would they include hardened air shelters - unless it there only to make it easier for the French to fulfill their offset obligations.

Indian climatic conditions degrade engine performance. Thus an improvement in hot & high performance is very necessary.

Although the Rafales will be primarily at Ambala AFS and Hasimara AFS, they will operate all over the country as per operational requirements. I know they will visit TACDE @ Maharajpur AFS as well. TACDE is Tactics & Air Combat Development Establishment and is where our Air Warriors hone their dogfighting skills and is also home to No 1 Tigers, No 7 Battle Axes and No 9 Wolfpacks Squadrons (Mirage 2000s). Many of our air stations are not at the same sea level and thus engine performance could degrade at various air bases. Having an improved hot & high performance for the M88 turbofan is important. I am not sure how Safran is doing that, but they are.

As a side note, the Kaveri turbofan has a FADEC (Full Authority Digital Engine/Electronic Control) to assist in hot and high performance. See here for FADEC ---> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FADEC

All the more reason for Safran to have a working, certified Kaveri turbofan. One engine (Kaveri88) across multiple platforms - Tejas, Rafale, MiG-29K. If successful and certified, the cost savings are great. Ease of maintenance and one spares stock to maintain.

Hardened air shelters are VERY, VERY important for modern 4+ and 5th generation fighter aircraft....especially when they are stationed in the South Asian subcontinent. India has every climate out there (snow, rain, desert) and each of those places have high humidity or dry heat or some other climatic condition. And India has air force stations at every one of those places. Thus climate controlled air shelters are very important, as aircraft sensors are quite sensitive. Also protects the aircraft from the elements.

In that respect, the Pakistan Air Force does an excellent job. Go to Google Maps and check out all their airbases. You will very rarely see any of their fighters just parked out in the open. Especially their F-16s are all in hardened air shelters. Now compare that to the Indian Air Force. Check out Lohegaon AFS at Pune, Maharajpur AFS among others. Fighters out in the open. This is a key lacuna at our air force stations. They need to be in hardened (or some sort of) air shelters, when not flying.

Rather than waste $20 billion on SEF, they should be improving the base infrastructure at these air force stations. Just one among the many list of priorities that the MoD needs to do first, before go gallivanting on some fanciful SEF acquisition.

Only recently has Lohegaon AFS added tents on the tarmac to protect the two Su-30MKI squadrons that are based there (from No 20 Lightnings and No 30 Rhinos), from the elements. Dhoop (dust) is a huge issue in India and dhoop is not good for fighter aircraft. Lohegaon AFS does not have space to put in hardened air shelters. Tents it is.

The Jaguar re-engine program is meant to counter the weight the Jaguar has added over the decades. Improving hot and high performance for the Jaguar is key to fully exploiting Darin III capabilities. I have gone hoarse on BRF, for the MoD to sign the contract with Honeywell for the F125 re-engine program.

Rakesh wrote:Only recently has Lohegaon AFS added tents on the tarmac to protect the two Su-30MKI squadrons that are based there (from No 20 Lightnings and No 30 Rhinos), from the elements. Dhoop (dust) is a huge issue in India and dhoop is not good for fighter aircraft. Lohegaon AFS does not have space to put in hardened air shelters. Tents it is.

Prasad wrote:That'll make it 100 & utterly idiotic if we don't make it here.

The old myth of TOT again...essentially screwdrivergiri that keeps a unionized PSU parasite employed but gives us little else of value.

We get nothing of much use by "making it here". I would rather that they made them in France (while providing source codes and other stuff that we need to do weapons integration or minor modifications etc to us) and instead provided offsets in the form of expertise that we actually need in radars, electronics and engines that could go into our genuinely indigenous (as opposed to so-called TOT) programs.

+108 Bart Saar! Make them in France onlee. The French did that for the M2K during Kargil. A follow-on batch of Rafales should include offsets for the areas you mentioned. Assist in any one or combination of the following;

- Uttam AESA development- AMCA development- Mk2 development

But MROU facilities must be in India. No sending planes back to foreign country, when we should be doing it in house. DRAL can do that for the Rafale during a MROU.

abhik wrote:@Rakesh Im not questioning the need for HAS / Hot and High performance, but rather some random dude on the interweb (the article in question) claiming x, y, z with no reliable corroboration.

I agree with your sentiment. But hot & high is very valid for Indian climatic conditions and same with hardened shelters. He is not wrong with his numbers either. The breakdown is fairly accurate.

Prasad wrote:Jobs are jobs. They can provide offsets or whatever and jobs too. Otherwise it wont sell domestically.

Prasad Saar,

The TOT jobs are not free and we pay through our nose to get at best about a 1000 jobs for something like a Rafale assembly project. It would be better to save the premium that we would pay for so-called TOT and spend them in areas where we can actually provide more employment.

Something like TOT, OTOH makes perfect sense for other areas like ammo manufacture or rifle manufacture.

Air Chief Marshal (retired) Arup Raha — Chief of Air Staff of the Indian Air Force from 2013 to 2016 — spoke to TOI on myriad issues ranging from the Rafale deal to the need to procure modern defence equipment for the country. Raha also stressed the necessity to involve the private sector in defence manufacturing to augment India’s strategic strengths. He warned that cumbersome procurement procedures could affect India’s defence capabilities.

Q. What do you make of the controversy surrounding the Rafale deal?Ans: It is unfortunate that whenever a defence deal is signed for boosting the capabilities of our armed forces, such controversies paint everybody black with a broad brush. Be it Bofors or Rafale, the truth is we require these deals to defend ourselves. Once you begin raising doubts about the process, we lose confidence, the system loses confidence, and in the end our country loses confidence in us. Then no bureaucrat is ready to recommend or sign any new contract, fearing a reprimand from investigating agencies even after retiring from service.

Q. The UPA government had signed a contract for 126 Rafale fighter aircraft. The NDA government plans to buy just 36 aircraft. Why is theresuch a gap in numbers?Ans: Had 126 Rafale aircraft been inducted, it would have been the best thing for the country. However, the deal fell through due to some differences between Dassault and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) which was to manufacture the aircraft in India. Whatever the reason — quality control or costing — the deal came unstuck. During the UPA regime, the deal was that India will buy the first 18 aircraft in “fly away” condition. But now we are getting 36 aircraft straight off the shelf. Many don’t know that we will get a weapon fleet, maintenance training, performance-based logistics, and support-training infrastructure, which were not planned earlier.

Q. As Air Chief Marshal, were you taken into confidence before the Rafale deal was signed?Ans: I had a discussion with the defence minister at the time, Manohar Parrikar. We interacted on a daily basis. The government thought it needed to do something with utmost urgency or the Air Force would be affected. As a result it took a decision and I came to know that the deal had been signed.

Q. How many squadrons does the IAF have?Ans: As you may know, many aircraft in our fleets are old. We are replacing them. The numbers to be replaced are large. The Government of India has approved an authorized strength of 42 squadrons according to the threat perception. It will take time to replace all old aircrafts but there are many parallel schemes. Procurement of fifth-generation fighter aircraft from Russia is underway which could be another line of combat strength.

Q. Did you note any difference in the procurement process under the UPA and NDA regimes?Ans: Every government is trying to refine the procurement process, though it is very slow. It is a process-driven system and is not outcome-driven. The current government is taking the outcome-driven line, though not much is happening on the ground. I expected much faster certification of policies. All these years we ignored the private sector in defence manufacturing. Make in India will succeed only when we involve the private sector in defence.

Q. How well are we placed against China?Ans: There is no problem. The IAF is strong. The army on the ground is doing well. We have tremendous capabilities and there is no cause for concern over any threat. But yes, we want replacement of outdated equipment.

Prasad wrote:That'll make it 100 & utterly idiotic if we don't make it here.

Unless the TOT actually add value to our MIC, it makes no sense to do any TOT. Let them build it in france.

If Safran is able to retrofit kaveri88 into rafale and improve the hot and high performance that would be nice both for IAF and for chances of Naval LCA without catapults (We do have two carriers without catapults). Lets make the engines in India (85% ours is more than > 0% ours)

This is what we should be doing in India instead of TOT:

Help with a product like Spectra for LCA Help with making MAWS optical sensorsJoint venture to make next gen IRST for Indian and french fleets.Joint venture for Rafale F5-F8 EW Wide area jamming sensors to get an fa-18Growler equivalent. We can start a MKI-Growler equivalent squadron. Uttam help if any required - May not be anymore.Equal participant in new UAV projects.

Air Chief Marshal (retired) Arup Raha — Chief of Air Staff of the Indian Air Force from 2013 to 2016 — spoke to TOI on myriad issues ranging from the Rafale deal to the need to procure modern defence equipment for the country. Raha also stressed the necessity to involve the private sector in defence manufacturing to augment India’s strategic strengths. He warned that cumbersome procurement procedures could affect India’s defence capabilities.

...Q. The UPA government had signed a contract for 126 Rafale fighter aircraft. The NDA government plans to buy just 36 aircraft. Why is theresuch a gap in numbers?Ans: Had 126 Rafale aircraft been inducted, it would have been the best thing for the country. However, the deal fell through due to some differences between Dassault and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) which was to manufacture the aircraft in India. Whatever the reason — quality control or costing — the deal came unstuck. During the UPA regime, the deal was that India will buy the first 18 aircraft in “fly away” condition. But now we are getting 36 aircraft straight off the shelf. Many don’t know that we will get a weapon fleet, maintenance training, performance-based logistics, and support-training infrastructure, which were not planned earlier.

...

So what was to be included in the original 126 MMRCA contract then? Just planes and some ToT/infrastructure for license assembly? Like many other deals, subsequent deals keep growing masking the total cost. They would have bought 126 "hanger queens" for a lot of money. Then to make them fly and be combat ready, a series of a separate contracts would be signed over the subsequent years. One for weapons and then another for training and then another for PBL and yet another for infrastructure. Totally idiotic process. Easy to see why fleet servicibility rates are low.

AMBALA: The Indian Air Force has initiated major infrastructure upgrade at its frontline base here for deployment of the first squadron of the Rafale jets which will give India greater "potency" over Pakistan as these will be capable of carrying nuclear weapons and other missiles.

The government has already sanctioned Rs 220 crore to set up 14 shelters, hangers and maintenance facilities at the 78- year-old base for the Rafale jets whose delivery is scheduled to begin from September ..

The Ambala as well as Hasimara stations will also have simulator-based training facilities for the air crew of Rafale jets. The IAF has already selected a batch of pilots to fly the jets and they are being given training by Dassault Aviation in France.

The Rafale squadron to be deployed in Ambala will be known as Golden Arrows which was originally based in Bhatinda and was disbanded two years ago.

Ramana-ji: first batch of Rafales to arrive in Sept 2019 and is on schedule. It appears to be No 17 Golden Arrows Sqn - of Sqn Ldr Ajay Ahuja fame. No 18 Flying Bullets Sqn was supposed to be the second squadron - of Flying Officer Nirmal Jit Singh Sekhon, PVC fame - but that honour (and rightfully so) went to the second Tejas squadron.

No 17 will be at Ambala (Western Air Command) and second sqn at Hasimara (Eastern Air Command). Both airbases are being built for infrastructure to house at least one more Rafale squadron each. Waste of money to only stop at two Rafale squadrons, when at least two more should be inducted to make full optimal use of the infrastructure present.

Rakesh wrote:Hardened air shelters are VERY, VERY important for modern 4+ and 5th generation fighter aircraft....especially when they are stationed in the South Asian subcontinent. India has every climate out there (snow, rain, desert) and each of those places have high humidity or dry heat or some other climatic condition. And India has air force stations at every one of those places. Thus climate controlled air shelters are very important, as aircraft sensors are quite sensitive. Also protects the aircraft from the elements.

“The Swedish Air Force has utilized the concept of deployable maintenance capability in several missions as well as during joint international exercises. With our Deployable Aircraft Maintenance Facility you can carry out additional preventive and corrective maintenance tasks at organizational level at the forward operating base. The robust design and minimal maintenance requirements make it ideal for semi-permanent use, or to complement or even substitute stationary facilities at main bases,” says Christoffer Rashdan, Business Development Director at Saab´s Support and Services business area.

Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman on Sunday said at The Huddle that the Inter- Government Agreement for the Rafale deal did not name HAL or any other company as partner for Dassault. Ms. Sitharaman was in conversation with N. Ravi, Publisher, The Hindu , on the topic In defence of the realm: how prepared is India? “The Inter-Government Agreement [between India and France] is like a memorandum of understanding which only broadly states intention. It does not name anybody, not HAL or any other private company,” she said. “In the UPA non-deal, HAL had clearly stated manpower which was not accepted by Dassault [which manufactures Rafale fighter jets]. If Dassault does a deal with a private company, it is absolutely nonsense to say that it was done because the Prime Minister handpicked the company.” She said the Defence Ministry would get to know about the Indian partner only when it applied for credit after fulfilling the offset obligation.

Prices of the aircraft, she said, are bound to go up as India will want to upgrade the basic, cheaper fighter jet to suit its terrain and potential use. However, is the Centre’s refusal to reveal details of the deal — as was seen in Parliament recently — a “self-goal” for the ruling NDA government as the Congress has been claiming, asked N. Ram, Chairman, The Hindu Group. In response, Ms. Sitharaman said: “I want to answer, and it would bring satisfaction to all the people here. But it will also lead to satisfaction for our enemies ... But how many times has the UPA also sought protection under national security. We [BJP, then in the Opposition] did not express outrage on this.” In her opening remarks, the Defence Minister said indigenous defence procurement was being emphasised, with 120 out of 170 defence contracts being with Indian companies. “Until recently, 60% of components were imported. Now, it is 35%,” she said. However, responding to a question on the issues of procurement of the HAL-developed Tejas light combat aircraft, Ms. Sitharaman said that while 40 had been procured by the Air Force, processes were being completed to order another 83. “There has to be serious improvement in scaling up of production by HAL, either through outsourcing or their own,” she said.