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No, because you wouldn't be "cursing" God's people or showing preemptive aggression.

This verse is speaking to bloodwashed, born again Christians and it applies: Romans 13:4"................if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil." In other words, if you rob my store, break into my house, murder someone and run afoul of the Government, or attack another country, whatever happens next is your fault.

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No, because you wouldn't be "cursing" God's people or showing preemptive aggression.

This verse is speaking to bloodwashed, born again Christians and it applies: Romans 13:4"................if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil." In other words, if you rob my store, break into my house, murder someone and run afoul of the Government, or attack another country, whatever happens next is your fault.

But I don't believe Israel would do that.

Question: Why would attacking a muslim-lead america be evil?? Because that is what we are now and will continue to be muslim-lead through indirect sympathy if Trump isn't elected. If hilarious makes it, we will see scores more muslim cabinet member and political appointees at all levels of government. So make sure you all vote. I think America is no better than the Amorites, Hittites or any other OT "ites" at this point in History. Thanks primarily to the muslim obamanation in office for the last 8 years. These last 8 years have taken 100s of years off our "mercy" meter with the Lord IMO.

In addition do you really think Romans 13:4 applies to nations? I can see how Jordan's passage does. I think the Romans passage is applicable to individuals more so, a reap what you sow type of warning. In addition a warning that even though a real NT Christian, we are not above man's laws. We are to be subject to God instituted human government until it steps on the Bible, worship and witnessing (but nothing else really unless related or tied directly to those three areas). Don't get me wrong I do understand what you are saying brother. I just wouldn't apply it to nations initially.

Edited August 31, 2016 by wretched

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I agree, it was addressed to Christians breaking laws, but I would think it could also apply to all evil deeds, like Hitler invading Poland and murdering Jews in concentration camps, the Japanese attacking pearl harbor, or Saddam Hussein gassing the Kurds. God used man/governments to judge them all as you well know. But, I don't believe Israel has the right or propensity to attack our "muslim led country" unless we violate/attack them first. Hopefully we'll not vote Hitlery into office either.

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I agree, it was addressed to Christians breaking laws, but I would think it could also apply to all evil deeds, like Hitler invading Poland and murdering Jews in concentration camps, the Japanese attacking pearl harbor, or Saddam Hussein gassing the Kurds. God used man/governments to judge them all as you well know. But, I don't believe Israel has the right or propensity to attack our "muslim led country" unless we violate/attack them first. Hopefully we'll not vote Hitlery into office either.

You expose them to a WORLD of hurt, like nothing they've ever conceived of. Swift, sure, deadly, painful...

Oprimere, Velocitas, Violentia Operandi.

There's no question to be answered here. Men protect their women, their homes, their property, their livelihood.

That's how you end a confrontation quickly....If you end confrontations quickly...you save lives.

The use of the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagosaki saved lives in the millions or projectedly...at least hundreds of thousands. It was the most humanitarian thing ever done. When at war....you END the war. It's done by overwhelming infliction of pain. Have the fortitude to do it....and lives are saved.

You expose them to a WORLD of hurt, like nothing they've ever conceived of. Swift, sure, deadly, painful...

Oprimere, Velocitas, Violentia Operandi.

There's no question to be answered here. Men protect their women, their homes, their property, their livelihood.

That's how you end a confrontation quickly....If you end confrontations quickly...you save lives.

The use of the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagosaki saved lives in the millions or projectedly...at least hundreds of thousands. It was the most humanitarian thing ever done. When at war....you END the war. It's done by overwhelming infliction of pain. Have the fortitude to do it....and lives are saved.

Well thanks friend, but this answer is apples to oranges and has little to do with the question.

Provide some Scripture that refutes Israel's blessing from God as a nation throughout the ages and the Lord's guarantee of cursing to all nations who curse Israel. I know the OP question is hypothetical but the last 8 years indicates a dangerous trend for the U.S.

Matter of fact, after the last 8 years, it is useless to even imagine the U.S. not being destroyed utterly by the Lord at His Second Coming. This country is increasingly anti-Israel which will culminate in this IMO.

Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For theyarenot all Israel, which are of Israel:

The Gentiles do NOT reject the Messiah....

We are the "Wild Olive branch" that has been grafted into the promises..

That's only Australia.....

The Western World is simply so extremely pro-gospel, you aren't looking in the right places.

Our LEADERS are often evil...........but that's not who we are.

Israel is a secular and Godless Nation.

The penultimate expression of righteousness is still expressed in Western Gentile Christianity.....don't be fooled by heretics like Obama into thinking otherwise. God knows where HIS people are.......and he knows which Nations still honor him.

That's the Risen Messiah being honored thousands of miles away.

In the event you don't internalize this...........this is the Royal Albert Hall in London.

It's the Premier cultural venue for musicals, concerts and culture....It defines them culturally.

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Thank you very much for the for the songs and testimony. There are still some quite a bit of fine saints in the old US of A that love the lord, love Israel, and pray for the day that Romans 9:6 will be fulfilled. I have not commented much on this thread as I feel the assumption of Israel attacking America is not plausible. And, I personally do not care for hypothetical situations as this one.

"Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee." Psalm 122:6

We need to pray for, and love, America and the nation of Israel. In spite of our rulers, there is still a lot of "salt" here in America that is keeping our country as a witness for the cause of Jesus Christ around the world. Let us remind ourselves that is was our government, President Harry S. Truman, that recognized Israel as a nation in May 1948, and our country that has helped Israel since that day.

Again, Heir of Salvation, thank you for the fine songs. All three are a blessing to my heart.

Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For theyarenot all Israel, which are of Israel:

The Gentiles do NOT reject the Messiah....

We are the "Wild Olive branch" that has been grafted into the promises..

That's only Australia.....

The Western World is simply so extremely pro-gospel, you aren't looking in the right places.

Our LEADERS are often evil...........but that's not who we are.

Israel is a secular and Godless Nation.

The penultimate expression of righteousness is still expressed in Western Gentile Christianity.....don't be fooled by heretics like Obama into thinking otherwise. God knows where HIS people are.......and he knows which Nations still honor him.

That's the Risen Messiah being honored thousands of miles away.

In the event you don't internalize this...........this is the Royal Albert Hall in London.

It's the Premier cultural venue for musicals, concerts and culture....It defines them culturally.

And so the good Ol' U...S...of A, isn't ignored...

Let's see Israel do this:

Although you post does smack hard of replacement theology through its hostility towards Israel, it still does not address the question. So I can assume as I already did anyway that you have no Scriptural basis for any part of your argument.

is what you are saying patriotic...sure; conservative republican....yes; neo-nazi...close; but Scriptural...No.

The vast majority of patriotic, conservative republicans are lost religious. I wouldn't hazard to say as much as 95% of them. So don't confuse them with God's real children truly born again that the Lord does hear and will honor their sacrifices and service.

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Although you post does smack hard of replacement theology through its hostility towards Israel, it still does not address the question. So I can assume as I already did anyway that you have no Scriptural basis for any part of your argument.

is what you are saying patriotic...sure; conservative republican....yes; neo-nazi...close; but Scriptural...No.

The vast majority of patriotic, conservative republicans are lost religious. I wouldn't hazard to say as much as 95% of them. So don't confuse them with God's real children truly born again that the Lord does hear and will honor their sacrifices and service.

I am not even close to an adherent of Replacement Theology................I abhor Replacement Theology.

"Neo-Nazi"????? Really?? Can you quote for me the "Neo-Nazi" part of the post?

There's no Scriptural argument to even make!.....the question was if your nation was attacked without warrant should you defend it?

The answer is obvious.....of course you defend your country.

Do I take it that if an Israeli bomber were dropping ordnance on your house you wouldn't fire back?

You wouldn't defend your wife and children? You would let an Israeli murder your family?

This thread is beyond the pale of absurd.

Jordan shouldn't even have to ask the question, the answer is self-evident. He's just over-thinking it. It's understandable, he's a curious learning young man trying to make sense of complex ideas, sometimes young people over-think things and confuse the complex with the simple. That's all.

I have zilch hostility towards Israel.....Zilch.

I know that the Nation of Israel however, does not have Carte-Blanche to attack other countries without recourse. I also know that they wouldn't. They are a friend and ally of the United States. And I support them 100%. But the Nation of Israel is not the synonymous with the Jewish people as a whole. There are Jews throughout the world.

And, yes, the Nation of Israel as a whole is extremely secular and as a people group they have rejected their Messiah. I'm sorry if you don't like it, but it's a fact. Paul also says that the Natural Olive branch (the Jews) will be grafted back in again. Unfortunately, that won't happen until after the time of Jacob's trouble. I wish it weren't so, but, it is so and that's the Scriptural testimony on the matter. Paul's argument in Romans 11 tell the story.....

I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

These are the times of the gentiles according to the Scripture, until the fullness of the gentiles has come in, the Jews remain as a whole in unbelief. Replacement Theology doesn't understand that the natural Olive branch will be grafted BACK IN AGAIN.

There are two possible errors that are made:

The first is to fail to understand that the Jews have been put aside FOR A TIME.

Well; because of unbelief they were broken off

The second is to fail to realize that the Natural branch (the Jews) will be grafted back in........that's what Replacement Theology fails to recognize, and that's why I absolutely am NOT an adherent of it and I loathe it. Paul expressly warns against it right here:

Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

But we can't fail to recognize the first point either that for now, these are the times of the gentiles and God is provoking them to jealousy, and it will take the Tribulation to bring them back in again. It's because I don't fail to recognize the unfortunate reality of point 1 that you accuse me of abhorrent Replacement Theology and Nazism............ (absurd).

Make neither of the two errors.

Your accusations of "Neo-Nazi" and "Replacement Theology" are absurd, insulting and unwarranted.

Edited September 4, 2016 by Heir of Salvation

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Okay, I'm going to jump in before this goes any further. The neo-nazi remark was inflammatory and unnecessary, Wretched. Let's stop this rabbit trail of personal remarks before it goes any further. Both of you.

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The Western nations are not 'Christian' or 'righteous', Heir. We as individuals have been grafted in, but that grafting does not extend to the nation corporately. You are correct in saying that Israel as a nation has not returned to her God. She is like the dead bones of the valley, connected and standing, but without breath. America, Australia and the U.K., however, are no less secular and godless than she. Our Western nations do not enjoy some special privilege or position in God's eyes. The idea that they do generally does generate from replacement theology.

I agree with Heir on the OP, though. It is kind of a common-sense question. Of course you should defend your own country. If you want to cobble together a chapter and verse, try 1 Peter 2:14 and 1 Timothy 5:8.

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America, Australia and the U.K., however, are no less secular and godless than she.

I disagree.

As a whole, they are. Of course these are generalizations and everywhere there is Godlessness.

But I think it is pietism and humility (good traits for sure) but not fact that makes you want to say that. From a strictly statistical standpoint for instance, There are far more people in those nations, indeed in the Western World as a whole who embrace the Messiah than there are in Israel. It's getting worse here of course, but Israel is more secular than those countries and there are far fewer Christians in Israel than in the U.S. U.K. Australia et al. There is not even a lot of Orthodox practitioners of Judaism in Israel. It's a very humanistic country.

Thanks be to God, it won't be forever, but it is for now.

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I don't know what pietism is, and I can't be humble cause none of those countries is mine. But no country in this world is godly. Some had a veneer of it for a time, but even that is long gone on this continent. These nations do not honor God.

Oh, and as for 'western gentile Christianity'? Don't forget that 'in Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek', and the western church is generally complacent and lukewarm compared to the eastern church that is currently under persecution. I think you have a romantic view of our nations and our churches that does not reflect reality.

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Root word "piety".....an obsession with remaining "pious" or monastically humble. I was saying that you were erring on the side of caution because you said that those Nations so mentioned were "No less secular" than Israel. You are (I think) Canadian....but you don't want to think too highly of yourself and you wish to remain humble in God's sight....That's what I mean. "Pietism" CAN MEAN something like someone who is disingenuously pious.

But that wasn't what I meant there..... I was suggesting that your natural bent towards humility that every Christian should have balks (quite naturally) at what I'm saying. That's a good trait, but, I think it gets in the way of what I'm arguing here.

and I can't be humble cause none of those countries is mine.

Sure you can.

You are a humble person.....almost to a fault.

But no country in this world is godly.

True.

Which is to say, Ultimately...........as far as the lives of the individual inhabitants....no country is properly truly full of "Godly" persons but, at the same time I think that the "veneer" as you call it is actually important...even if we are whited sepulchres on the inside.

Some had a veneer of it for a time,

I think the "veneer" of it matters actually.

It suggests something about the inside of the people. The people may sin, they may be hypocrites, they may sin when they think they are in darkness................but they aren't "painted whores"....they don't yet have a "whore's forhead".

Therefore the showers have been withholden, and there hath been no latter rain; and thou hadst a whore'sforehead, thou refusedst to be ashamed.

There's a different level of wickedness when you are shamelessly ungodly. A desire to at least hide one's shame bespeaks a conscientiousness of Godliness not always shared by others. The idea is that you no longer even blush when you are shamelessly ungodly:

Those Western nations at least pretend to blush....just a little.

but even that is long gone on this continent.

Not entirely... Mostly, but not entirely. It NEVER existed with the Nation of Israel though.

These nations do not honor God.

Yes they do.

What I just posted was at least Britain and Australia putting a National face on Christianity. Of course, on the inside, in the aggregate, the people are often lost......the nation itself doesn't dishonor God. It at least pretends to.

David Hobson's song was an uberly Christian (even Dispensational) view of Christian Christian ethic. Granted, they aren't perfect. and granted, they are probably (as individuals) as lost as anyone.....but the Nation isn't "Godless" not like Israel is.

This is actually my "shout-out" to pretentiousness....to faux Christianity....to being a "whited sepulchre"....to complete and utter hypocrisy.

A nation completely devoid of Godliness which at least PRETENDS towards Godliness is in better shape than one which doesn't honor God even in the abstract....that's what I'm contending.

Oh, and as for 'western gentile Christianity'? Don't forget that 'in Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek',

Not "In Christ" as you correctly state......but in the Nation....there is the "Christian" and the "Jew"...at least in the national contiousness. I actually contend that that matters.

and the western church is generally complacent and lukewarm compared to the eastern church that is currently under persecution.

Probably true.

The Eastern Church would be equally complacent under the same circumstances:

Christianity is embedded in Western Culture though. That's not easily dismissed.

I think you have a romantic view of our nations and our churches that does not reflect reality.

I don't think so. I'm not contending that we are over-run with Godly people desperate to reach the world with the gospel. This isn't about the PERSONAL state of any nation's inhabitants. I'm not arguing the personal life of a Western Christian vs. the Israeli or Eastern Christian....I'm arguing something more abstract like the "NATIONAL" concsciousness.

Britain at least PRETENDS to honor God....as The concert at the Royal Albert Hall suggests........that's downtown London. Kings and Queens go to the Royal Albert Hall. They are married and they are crowned by the Bishop of Canterbury...it's in their National blood.

There's a difference between being unrighteous (but only secretly) and shamefacedly shaking your fist at God.

Britain, Australia, U.S....etc...they at least have enough FEAR of God that they pretend to care about righteousness (even though they don't really as you rightly say).

I think you are a whole lot better off if you at least PRETEND towards righteousness whilst committing every sin known to man than if you shake your fist at God in the process:

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Israel attacks the U.S. And you are commander in chief. Do you respond by attacking Israel in defense of the U.S.? Will God curse you for attacking them in this situation?

This actually happened at least twice with the 1950s Lavon Affair and 1967 USS Liberty bombing. Theory it is not. Considering that Jesus Christ is the head of the Jeremiah 31 new covenant, and the Jews reject Christ wholeheartedly (though not all), they actually broke Moses in raising a false report, and Christ who said not to murder and hate unrighteously in the heart. See Romans 2.28-9 and the letter to Galatia. Here is where the Jews speak about it in their Jerusalem Post. The POTUSes each apologized to the Jews.

I leave the satanic, evil traditions of the elders for another time... Take a look at Schäfer's Jesus in the Talmud orLuther's The Jews and Their Lies...

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I'm a traditional Fundamentalist Baptist. And, by traditional, I mean ca1900, maybe even 1611, but not 2018.

I was raised in a Dispensationalist church and for most of my life, that's the only eschatology I knew. But, I was always bothered by the, uh, perverted things supporters of Israel kept saying, such as their treatment of the Palestinians as the oppressors, rather than the oppressed, and then complaining that Israel isn't oppressive enough. The OP reminds me of that, if Israel attacks the US, "Do you respond by attacking Israel in defense of the U.S.?" Uh, yes. If I were Commander and Chief, if Israel attacked us, I'd wipe that, Zionist, Antichristian regime off the map. The audacity of Israel to attack the hand that has fed them and protected them from their neighbors, whom they continually provoke. We've wiped out other regimes for less.

How could anyone even hesitate to respond to any attack on the US?

Dispensationism was nearly non-existent before the 20th century. You have your 1611 Bibles, get yourself some 1611 doctrine.

After being raised in a Dispensationalist church and struggling with that nasty and esoteric doctrine, it was great relief for me when I really did start reading the Bible and discovered that it isn't biblical. And, when I started studying church history, I discovered that it really is just a modern doctrine. The church is the Israel of God and Christians are the heirs of the promises to Abraham. The book of Revelation only refers to Jerusalem as Sodom and Egypt. The book of Revelation only refers to "Jews" as the synagogue of Satan.

Israel attempted to sink the USS Liberty (205 American casualties) and has committed other acts of war against the US. We've led Israel slide on these things and accepted their absurd claim that their sustained attack on the USS Liberty was a mistake.

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I'm a traditional Fundamentalist Baptist. And, by traditional, I mean ca1900, maybe even 1611, but not 2018.

The church is the Israel of God and Christians are the heirs of the promises to Abraham. The book of Revelation only refers to Jerusalem as Sodom and Egypt. The book of Revelation only refers to "Jews" as the synagogue of Satan. ﻿﻿

Wow, you must be really old! (sorry, sorry, couldn't resist!)

These statements seriously conflate believing Israel with the unbelieving Jews. Don't forget that: "...the gifts & calling of God are without repentance." (Romans 11:29) Scripture must also be studied and considered as a whole.

Don't forget Who among those mentioned in Revelation is also a Jew (Revelation 5:5).

This may be a bit snarky (it's been one of those days at work!), but notice the only earth city whose name survives into the New Earth. It's not New York or Washington.

"And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband... And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:" (Rev. 21:2,10-12)

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These statements seriously conflate believing Israel with the unbelieving Jews. Don't forget that: "...the gifts & calling of God are without repentance." (Romans 11:29﻿) Scripture must also be studied and considered as a whole.

Don't forget Who among those mentioned in Revelation is also a Jew (R﻿evelation﻿ 5:5﻿﻿). ﻿

This may be a bit snarky (it's been one of those days at work!), but notice the only earth city whose name survives into the New Earth. It's not New York or Washington.

"And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband... And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:" (Rev. 21:2,10-12)

God's gifts and callings were not to a race, but to a faith. That is why you don't call Arab's God's chosen people. God didn't revoke his promise to Abraham concerning Ishmael. The elect in Romans 11:28 aren't racial Jews; they were Believers under the old covenant.

The Jerusalem in Rev 21 is the church, the bride of Christ. The names of the twelve tribes are the patriarchs of the faith.

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The Scripture in Rev. 21 says plainly that the New Jerusalem is a literal city. Re 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven,

A bit later in Rev 21 The Scripture goes on to describe it as a city not a church.

Re 21:13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.