June 6, 2013

The document shows for the first time that under the Obama administration the communication records of millions of US citizens are being collected indiscriminately and in bulk – regardless of whether they are suspected of any wrongdoing.

The secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (Fisa) granted the order to the FBI on April 25, giving the government unlimited authority to obtain the data for a specified three-month period ending on July 19.

Under the terms of the blanket order, the numbers of both parties on a call are handed over, as is location data, call duration, unique identifiers, and the time and duration of all calls. The contents of the conversation itself are not covered.

This is how it works. There are huge intrusions into civil liberties based on the idea that the country is at war and there are exigent circumstances. That is followed by an end to the "war" but the preservation of the totalitarian intrusions.

I wonder how this will affect Verizon's bottom line. I am quite sure that all the others are similarly tapped, but this one is getting the attention. If Verizon starts to incur financial stress, that's how we'll know people care about this in any meaningful way.

Give me a clue. Why does the warrant cover everything but the calls content? Am I reading the article correctly?

It may not be possible to retrieve or store the call content from that massive a database. But just seeing who is reaching out to touch who may serve their purporses. ________________________________

Seems bassackwards to me. They already have ability to scan for keywords in conversations. Given there are throwaway phones that illegal or terrorists would most likely use, why grope the whole system? It's like copying a phone book.

Of course the big difference between how the Bush admin administered this capability and how Obama is now abusing it can be summarized fairly simply:

During the "Reign of Bush", if you placed a call domestically to a known or suspected terrorist international phone number or received a call domestically from an international number which was thought (from intel gathered) to be a number associated with terrorists, then that relationship alone would be enough to a targeted monitoring of your (domestic) communications.

Any domestic to domestic call that was swept up (during Bushs tenure) was inadvertent, as even the NYT's had to admit in 2005:

I can still hear the deafening roar of the lefty complaints about Bush's program!! "Warrantless Wiretapping!!!!"

But now, Obama has expanded this program (as he has expanded almost all the Bush admin terror policies) to include all domestic to domestic communications in wide sweeps without any evidence of any wrongdoing.

Of course, we already know that the Obama admin would never stoop to using any communications by it's political "enemies" against Republicans/conservatives/Libertarians, don't we?

Where is the left on this?

Almost universally silent.

Because they never actually believed in any such thing as "civil liberties".

That was just the bludgeon they had available all those years to achieve what they needed to politically.

However, according to the March 14 posting on an al Qaeda-linked website, Abdallah Dhu-al-Bajadin, the al Qaeda weapons expert, stated that Stevens was given a lethal injection and that the injection was overlooked during the medical autopsy.

According to Dhu-al-Bajadin, “the plan was based on abduction and exchange of high-level prisoners.”

“However, the operation took another turn, for a reason God only knows, when one of the members of the jihadist cell improvised and followed Plan B,” he wrote on the prominent jihadist web forum Ansar al-Mujahideen Network.

Dhu-al-Bajadin’s claim of assassination also stated that it had been copied to the Ansar al-Mujahidin website from the closed and al Qaeda-accredited website Shumukh al-Islam. That site is only open to members and was initially posted by a member identified as Adnan Shukri for Dhu-al-Bajadin.

This seems a bit of overkill just to fight "workplace violence". They need to be watching Youtube videos. That's the source of the problems. Millions of videos uploaded daily and we only have one filmmaker in jail. Get to work you slackers. We got millions of workers at risk.

I know the defense is that we lack individual privacy interests in the metadata such that individual Verizon users would have grounds to complain, but isn't it about time for someone to make the case that Big Data and its modern use (and abuse) transforms that calculus? That those disparate bits can and will be used in a particularized fashion? That the particularized use is, after all, one of the key goals of the data gathering? It's the case for all Big Data gatherers, be they the NSA or Wal-Mart, that they're not simply amassing statistics for an historical treatise on modern American behaviors. They're targeting real people. And we should have some good goddamned protections against the government doing that on a whim.

And the left wonders why the right is so concerned about government overreach.

Cue Obama's commencement address about rejecting the voices that warn against government intrusion.

I'm sure many on the left are less than thrilled with this latest development but will keep silent mainly because shame overwhelms the nauseating cheerleading that they've done for him the last five years.

And NEXT.....GPS tracking devices on all of our cars, ostensibly to deal with mileage and gasoline usage so they can tax us for the miles driven instead of gasoline used. That way they can stick it to the electric auto owners as well as the traditional car owners.

Anyone think that this will be the ONLY usage of tracking where we travel, how often we travel, what times we travel.

Soon it will be mandatory taping of our conversations in the car so that they can know what we say and to whom we say it. Log in and identify who you are driving with and state the purpose of your travel...."Show your papers and authorization for this trip, Comrade. What is the purpose of this visit....hmmmm?"

Obama is rightly to be condemned for this violation of our civil rights, but anyone who asserts it began with him is lying, and anyone who believes it began with him is ignorant or in denial.

As with his mass murder abroad, Obama's crimes are a continuation and extension of the crimes of his predecessor(s), and as those of us who objected (rather than applauded) when Bush defiantly brayed--when it was revealed by the NYTimes (a year after they learned of it) and he could not deny it--that he had conducted warrantless wiretapping (in violation of the law), this continuation and extension of the law-breaking was entirely to be expected.

You can't ignore or cheer for violations of the law by "your guy," and not expect those violations to continue or expand when "your guy" is out of office.

Don't forget those who stayed home because Romney was not a true conservative, and those who refused to vote for a Mormon. They are despicable.

Did they really stay home? Keep in mind all those people who supposedly stayed home only appeared after questions were asked about how Choom could have won when 4 million fewer people voted for him than the first time.

"Don't forget those who stayed home because Romney was not a true conservative...."

See my previous comment. If Romney had won this program would still be in place.

As I've said here before, as long as we elect our Presidents from either of the two major parties, we are fucked. They all work for the military-intelligence/industrial-corporate-financial complex and not for us.

Most conservatives and libertarian leaning conservatives and especially libertarians (of which I count myself) were appalled at the Patriot Act and vociferously railed against this erosion of our Constitutional rights. The implementation of this abomination in the name of expedience for the so called "war on terror(ism)" allowed the unthinking or complacent to let it slide by.

The worst ideas of government don't arise all at one moment. It takes years of the drip drip drip erosion of freedoms. It also takes a sleeping media or one that blindly supports 'their guy' for ideological reasons. The water in which us little froggies reside has been warming gradually for quite some time......Obama just feels free to really crank up the heat because no one ever calls him out on ANYTHING.

And NEXT.....GPS tracking devices on all of our cars, ostensibly to deal with mileage and gasoline usage so they can tax us for the miles driven instead of gasoline used. That way they can stick it to the electric auto owners as well as the traditional car owners.

Anyone think that this will be the ONLY usage of tracking where we travel, how often we travel, what times we travel.

Soon it will be mandatory taping of our conversations in the car so that they can know what we say and to whom we say it. Log in and identify who you are driving with and state the purpose of your travel...."Show your papers and authorization for this trip, Comrade. What is the purpose of this visit....hmmmm?"

Well, lil darlin', cupcake. Take that issue up with those who raise it and use it.

The issue IS there and since you didn't read my other post, cutie pie, let me reiterate or state it again for you, dumplin', the erosion of our rights has been happening for quite some time and the Patriot Act was just put us on a faster track towards the end goal, whether Bush knew it or meant it that way.

"Hi, I'm President Obama, and I'm here to make sure you don't say or do anything I don't like."

Obama: They made me do it. I set up websites and tweeter tags for loyalist Americans to report verbal abuse about me. What did they do? They, the conservatives, the Teabaggers, made fun of me and hijacked the links.

What else could I do? They made fun of me, ME, the President, the transformative President who sent tingles up the legs President.

I'm the president, I can use my minions to run interference, can't I? So happened some of my running dogs (so Maoist, so apt) work in the IRS, the Justice Dept, the Court. They were not cheap, though. I have to poke their behinds with hundreds of millions of bonuses to make them run. (That, by the way, is what "leads from behind" really means.) These days money is not easy to come back, you know. The troops in Afghanistan can skip their hot foods, my running dogs need to be fed. The fun part is all these money came from the "victims". Do we call them "victims" when they chose to put me back to office? Masochists? Morons? Rubes? It's nice to be the Top Dog and have a couple of trillions to play with.

Well, lil darlin', cupcake. Take that issue up with those who raise it and use it.

The issue IS there and since you didn't read my other post, cutie pie, let me reiterate or state it again for you, dumplin', the erosion of our rights has been happening for quite some time and the Patriot Act was just put us on a faster track towards the end goal, whether Bush knew it or meant it that way.

Obama is just putting the pedal to the metal.

OK (forgive the familiars, I was addressing Cook at the time, not you), but I was the one who initially linked that story here yesterday.

And I didn't see anybody react to it until Ann made it a separate post.

You don't like the law?

Have it repealed. If enough people get mad enough and make enough noise, it will happen, but nothing happens if you just sit around whining, "We're so fucked", and then roll over and go back to sleep, telling yourself what a great Libertarian you are.

Have it repealed. If enough people get mad enough and make enough noise, it will happen, but nothing happens if you just sit around whining, "We're so fucked", and then roll over and go back to sleep, telling yourself what a great Libertarian you are.

That's two days in a row I caught you saying somehting sensible. You better watch it.

Poor confused cookie: "Obama is rightly to be condemned for this violation of our civil rights, but anyone who asserts it began with him is lying, and anyone who believes it began with him is ignorant or in denial."

Too. Many. Straw. Men. Don't. Know. Where. To. Start.....

Cookie: "As with his mass murder abroad, Obama's crimes are a continuation and extension of the crimes of his predecessor(s),"

Not must "continuations", but EXPANSIONS.

Is that too subtle for you?

LOL

Cookie: "and as those of us who objected (rather than applauded) when Bush defiantly brayed.."

Does Obama "bray", or was that just a Bush thing?

LOL, cookie can't help himself.

cookie: "..-when it was revealed by the NYTimes (a year after they learned of it) and he could not deny it--that he had conducted warrantless wiretapping (in violation of the law),,.."

Hilariously misinformed.

Probably on purpose.

cookie: "..this continuation and extension of the law-breaking was entirely to be expected."

Again, not a "continuation", but a massive expansion on the domestic only level.

Again, is this point to subtle for you?

cookie: "You can't ignore or cheer for violations of the law by "your guy," and not expect those violations to continue or expand when "your guy" is out of office."

Again, Bush broke no laws.

Just keep repeating it though. I can tell it makes you feel better.

Well, at least in his final comment cookie pays lip service to the concept of expansion as a potential differentiator.

One thing we've learned from modern data analysis is that the content of a phone call may be of less interest than the existence of the activity, the frequency of the activity and connecting that activity to other trackable things such as email and web activity particularly as web, email and messaging activity is performed via the IP address connected to that phone's internet connection (wireless or land-line).

Also, remember, this is a RENEWAL. It's been going on for quite some time.

I will frankly admit that I am surprised that Obama has essentially doubled down on much of W's policies particularly considering how much he railed against them. I took him as an inexperienced and naieve but that he truly wanted to end the Bush era abuses.

It truly must be a bitter pill to swallow for his syncophants to see him continue to carry out these policies with gusto. Or perhaps not since liberals tend to ignore these things when their guy is in charge.

Yet another thing for the Congress to investigate - Who has access to this information or any analysis derived from it?

Senate Intelligence Committee leaders have already come out and said the program is legal and that they were aware of it. What's to investigate? This isn't like the IRS scandal, with the IRS doing things it isn't supposed to do. This IS what the government is statutorily EXPECTED to do.

How much more are you people going to endure this rancid bullshit from this traitorous enemy of the United States? He's a fucking traitor and we tip toe around it. He's selling us out wholesale and no seems to give a shit outside of pontificating the inner meanings of it all. Obama and his cadre are cementing their power base for eternity well beyond and after he is gone. He's laying down the network and precedent that this will continue ad infinitum. How much more? Why isn't Verizon not going to be sued into oblivion over this? They should. Does the top secret court order grant them immunity? If it doesn't I'd be the first in line to sue them.

For whoever voted for this motherfucking piece of shit called a president, this is on you. You are just as culpable for the fuck up you've foisted on the rest of us. All of you. Everyone of you that defends an iota of what this piece of shit president is doing and has done are guilty. The match is struck.

Yet another thing for the Congress to investigate - Who has access to this information or any analysis derived from it?

Senate Intelligence Committee leaders have already come out and said the program is legal and that they were aware of it. What's to investigate? This isn't like the IRS scandal, with the IRS doing things it isn't supposed to do. This IS what the government is statutorily EXPECTED to do.

Last I looked, politicians can be replaced.

The Lefties are good at doing it.

You want Lindsey Gramnesty (or McCain) out? When he's up for a primary, help his opponent.

Currently there is not one single person in any elected office that I have ever voted for. Also note that I rarely vote third party. Clearly, my voice doesn't mean shit. So my "getting organized" or calling my Congresswoman (a black woman who will support Obama no matter what), or my Senators (Bill Nelson, loyal Democrat who will support Obama no matter what, or Marco Rubio, whose sole goal in office is to give the vote to 140,000,000 Mexicans) isn't going to accomplish shit either.

The government is not accountable to citizens any more. If it were, they wouldn't have spent most of this year focused on gay marriage, giving Mexicans the vote, and restricting Second Amendment rights. When what the people have wanted is action on the economy and unemployment.

And it is all irrelevant anyway, as the people continue to support Barry Half-White, perhaps now out of fear of what will happen to them if they don't do so.

Looking to one's "representatives" and the voting process is pointless. The Constitution is no longer the operative document in the land, and shouldn't be looked to for guidance. We should look to the Declaration of Independence for guidance from this point forward. But until a large percentage of the people feel that way, nothing is going to happen.

Obama is rightly to be condemned for this violation of our civil rights, but anyone who asserts it began with him is lying, and anyone who believes it began with him is ignorant or in denial.

Yes; what I've been saying for awhile. A lot of conservatives sold their souls to W, but not all of us.

Father, Bill Clinton seems to get a pass whenever his programs Carnivore and Echelon are brought up. Not to mention that Carnivore was replaced by a new software called NarusInsight which is an israeli co-founded company that I believe is still running today. Even though they were sued be the Electronic Frontier Foundation because they had set up operations at the San Fransisco AT&T Backbone center to monitor all and every piece of internet traffic that came through. Again, this is of leftist design. Bush simply continued the practice because that's what precedent setting technologies do? No politician has the intestinal fortitude to say, no this is wrong and shut it down. No one has yet.

He's selling us out wholesale and no seems to give a shit outside of pontificating the inner meanings of it all.

You make it sound like it's just one party. The Senate has already stated that they knew and that this is legal. This is what the elites of both parties want done now. Nothing less than getting rid of BOTH parties, and throwing out all the bastards will accomplish anything, and that isn't going to happen. How many here voted for their incumbent (R) bastard because he was THEIR incumbent bastard?

This requires far more than just primary opposition to a few jerks. This will not change until the whole damned government is turned out. And that is not happening.

I guarantee this covers all carriers. They got letters too but the Verizon letter is all the guardian has so far.

Funny how it was the guardian that reported this. I bet Fox News and other news orgs had a copy of the letter too and buried it. Press intimidation? Not in the US! Of course some of them didn't need to be intimidated.

And I will tell you it is a short step from the call pattern and contact list to complete transcripts of all calls for user John Doe. If you had enough nefarious contacts they were able to cross match data and "find" people. It started with a network of known bad actors and contacts were screened and matched. Once a person was determined to have enough bad contacts his calls were pulled up. The only thing that slowed things down in places overseas was a shortage of translators with clearance. This was used to find the Taliban and Al Quaeda overseas. Now it is being used on Americans.

Looking to one's "representatives" and the voting process is pointless. The Constitution is no longer the operative document in the land, and shouldn't be looked to for guidance. We should look to the Declaration of Independence for guidance from this point forward. But until a large percentage of the people feel that way, nothing is going to happen.

As I said, no more than one third the last time out. You're gonna be waiting a long time.

One third? You think we're close to one THIRTIETH of people ready to throw all the bums out, b whatever means? What was the re-election rate last year? How well did third party candidates do? Please.

Some of the American people a little upset by all this stuff - but not that much. Barry O's approval rating continues to hover over 50%. Congress's approval is abysmal, but most of them will be re-elected next year.

At this point if Obama starts using the drome program to kill domestic opposition, I expect most of the opposition to role over and approve, and I expect the American people to do the same. No doubt Robert Cook will be outraged, but phx and garage mahal and all the others will cheer.

Personal liberty as a philosophical guiding light for mass political action is dead. The people have been bought off a little at a time, and just don't care how much they're getting trammeled anymore.

I'll love it when you liberals would cultivate a shred of integrity and admit you elected a charlatan to the highest office. Twice.

From where I stand whatever I think of Obama is totally consistent with my values: integrity of self, dignity of others, acceptance of personal responsibility for myself, and an open hand to all beings.

It's one thing to impugn my intelligence, fair enough. But for the only person who counts in terms of what they think of my integrity (myself), my integrity is doing just fine.

From where I stand whatever I think of Obama is totally consistent with my values: integrity of self, dignity of others, acceptance of personal responsibility for myself, and an open hand to all beings.

Fair enough. I would have thought that his doubling down in Bush policies despite his condemnation of those very same policies during his campaign would strike most as hypocrisy of the highest order but apparently your mileage varies.

It's one thing to impugn my intelligence, fair enough. But for the only person who counts in terms of what they think of my integrity (myself), my integrity is doing just fine.

See my previous comment. If Romney had won this program would still be in place.

You know what Cookie? You may be right. But we'd still be better off with Republicans in power, even if they are as corrupt as the Democrats (assumed for sake of argument).

Why? Because the media keeps Republicans honest. Any one of the dozen or so things the Obama Administration has pulled would be enough for the media to be all over a Republican president like stink on shit, and appropriately so. Instead, because it's their guy in the White House, they are complicit in burying the truth from the American public.

I'll love it when you liberals would cultivate a shred of integrity and admit you elected a charlatan to the highest office. Twice.

From where I stand whatever I think of Obama is totally consistent with my values: integrity of self, dignity of others, acceptance of personal responsibility for myself, and an open hand to all beings.

It's one thing to impugn my intelligence, fair enough. But for the only person who counts in terms of what they think of my integrity (myself), my integrity is doing just fine.

6/6/13, 11:51 AM

Does this mean you do not support the administration that used government power to suppress their enemies? Or are we your enemies too? Do you still support them? Will you vote for Hilary?

It was close enough last time the Demos had to steal it, so quit whining.

You're just looking for an excuse to sit back and do nothing but complain.

Sweet Jesus, you think this is just a Democratic problem? The pertinent laws were first enacted under Bush. This program has been supported by both Republican and Democratic elected officials. There are a few dissidents (Rand Paul, Ted Cruz(?)), but this is broadly supported by the ruling class, whichever faction holds power.

Were there any promises by Romney that he would have stopped this? Was there any reason to believe him if he DID make such promises?

The rot is two parties deep, and includes the loyal followers of both, as well as "centrists" who merely want moire "moderation" & "cooperation" between the parties, when that is exactly what got us to this stage.

Icepick, of course you are basically right but what upsets me is this continued activity is at best no better than what happened under Bush and is perhaps worse (Charitably). This after Senator Obama was so critical and candidate Obama was so adamant about change and transparency and the media loved him and the people elected him. While there are scattetred criticisms from the democrats, they are nothing compared to the derision heaped upon McChimpyHilterburton. So go ahead and be critical of republican reversals. The onus is on the President to tell us what's going on and for the media to get their tongues out of his ass. Enough

Give me a clue. Why does the warrant cover everything but the calls content? Am I reading the article correctly?

Different laws and different standards. The PATRIOT Act doesn't really cover recording conversations, except to the extent that it modified FISA, and for FISA to be applicable, you need at least one end of the conversation outside the U.S. to/from a person not known to be a U.S. Person (citizen or legal alien). Otherwise, the Wiretap Act applies, and a regular warrant is required (FISA warrants are issued by the FISA Court instead, with somewhat different standards).

The other thing that has to be kept in mind is that the 4th Amdt. has been seen to apply to recording telephone calls. Wiretap Act warrants essentially comply with this, but a widespread recording of calls, and, esp. those with both ends in the U.S., would most likely violate the 4th Amdt.

The call data though is more akin to a pen registry, which is not seen as nearly as intrusive as the recording of the actual calls. My memory is that both acts (Wiretap and FISA) address pen registries and the like, and provide a much lower level of scrutiny for such. This is, of course, an example of the law not keeping up with real life, since pen registries used to be attached to single lines, as contrasted with potentially all call records for all Americans being siphoned off into huge databases. While recording this information may not be intrusive for that single line, it probably is when the information is being cross-correlated with that of the call records for hundreds of millions of Americans.