Shadi: This has been updated, based upon several inputs. We discussed on the last week or two. In particular on auditory disabilities, and also how people use the web. There have been some update in the first paragraph. From Sylvie, does Ms. Martinez use sign language or not. She learns sign language and fluent in written language.

12:38:58 [yeliz]

I agree it's fine

12:39:03 [doylesaylor]

Andrew: I think that is fine Shadi. That addresses the discussion from last week.

12:39:05 [yeliz]

I am Ok with with change

12:39:07 [LiamM]

+q to ask about styling for acronym

12:39:35 [doylesaylor]

Liam: the CART acronym, do we have a visual styling for that?

12:40:11 [doylesaylor]

Shadi: I believe we don't have a specific style for acronyms, but we have a definition for key words. I wonder if this a term for definition?

Shadi: see the link their CART is actually link throughout the article as a link to the definition. I will take that up as an action. That is an unusual term here. It will be explained in the Web Browsing methods, but maybe need to explain here also.

Shadi: the main parts of this discussion how PWD use the web. There have been some editorial changes, below the first part, the categories and entries of disabilities. The issue was the categorization was a bit of issue. Sometimes according the medical terms, and sometimes to functional terms. We to take another path. Auditory, Cognitive and neurological categories have been put together, and physical put into higher levels.

Shadi: with so many different types of cognitive disabilities there are so many different types it is not clear why we don't have some and others. Let's have a look at the first section. Auditory disabilities. This has a couple of paragraphs of auditory disabilities barriers, then resources, comments.

12:47:58 [doylesaylor]

Ian: on the second paragraph, reads...seems a bit unwieldy to me. The second part provide means to adjust the volume. Do we know any media players do that in the wild? Developers may not have good examples?

Ian: is there an example of that. Not a straight forward thing to do. From a developers perspective, they can't distinguish between forground and background tracks. Say something more than do this but have something to illustrate how to do this.

Ian: the requirement be able to in the ideal situation be able to control the volume of the background, and otherwise to address the volume of the sound.

12:53:44 [doylesaylor]

Shadi: so we would advise to turn off the audio, or the background with little of no noise?

12:53:46 [LiamM]

"The background sounds are at least 20 decibels lower than the foreground speech content, with the exception of occasional sounds that last for only one or two seconds."

12:54:05 [doylesaylor]

Ian: Yes, for the audio visual content as well for developers.

12:54:17 [doylesaylor]

Shadi: Anything else?

12:54:27 [shadi]

action: consider splitting between what media players can do (turn off audio, adjust volume) and the quality of the audio content (as a separate point)

12:55:31 [doylesaylor]

Shadi: I'll take a look at that. Other comments? How is this working how does this address auditory disabilities? A person new to accessibility, who hasn't heard of web sites might have barriers and solutions. Use cases?

12:55:56 [doylesaylor]

Liam: when I train people are surprised that people can use the web. The answer is it kind of depends.

12:56:12 [doylesaylor]

Shadi: does this explain this well. There are barriers for hearing.

12:56:29 [doylesaylor]

Andrew: in the third section use the example of older people?

12:57:22 [andrew]

s/third section/fourth paragraph/

12:57:23 [doylesaylor]

Liam: In terms of winning hearts it doesn't do that. Often appears like unusual on the web, the developers feels the background they can forget about.

12:57:34 [doylesaylor]

Shadi: the actual barriers are not clear enough.

12:57:46 [doylesaylor]

Liam: I'm not sure of how to express that, but yes.

12:57:57 [shadi]

action: consider mentioning older people as an example of both hearing and visual disabilities

12:58:21 [doylesaylor]

Ian: An opening sentence talking about video content is more prevalent on the web and more important.

12:58:37 [shadi]

action: consider explaining more clearly the barriers for people with hearing disabilities (especially with the increase of multimedia on the web)

12:58:43 [doylesaylor]

Liam: how well iPlayer stand up to this would be interesting.

12:58:53 [doylesaylor]

Shadi: Comments other thoughts?

12:59:36 [doylesaylor]

Shadi: Too much? Not necessary to be here?

13:00:11 [sinarmaya]

sinarmaya has joined #eo

13:00:19 [doylesaylor]

Liam: third paragraph, people who use sign language are challenged by written language is difficult for people to grasp. The writing could be broken down.

13:01:08 [shadi]

action: consider simplifying the third paragraph on sign language

13:01:32 [doylesaylor]

Ian: content for older users, comment about one size fits all for language, sign language we discussed quite a lot. Might have users who have sign language as first language, take that documentation and use here.

13:02:32 [doylesaylor]

Shadi: I think a lot of those discussions were a little different from here. I hope to integrate the conversations. Anything else? Jump over auditory disabilities examples, and web barriers. Comments?

Shadi: we used to have them as separate disabilities. Neurological is the over term. Can be any disorders of the nervous system, but cognitive relates to the brain part of the nervous systems. I did not separate out but used together.

13:06:21 [doylesaylor]

Liam: My question is because of neurological fits into the physical section, better to talk about seizures if that is what we are talking about?

13:06:33 [doylesaylor]

Liam: a thought I mean.

13:06:45 [andrew]

s/neurological fits/neurological also fits/

13:07:03 [doylesaylor]

Shadi: I wonder a better approach to mention neurological conditions in the physical disabilities section.

13:07:08 [doylesaylor]

Liam: Yes

13:07:31 [doylesaylor]

Shadi: does affect hear move and so forth, but neurological can have many kinds of impacts.

13:08:01 [doylesaylor]

Liam: comes back to my original questions neurological apart from seizures?

13:08:35 [doylesaylor]

Shadi: maybe for the ones listed here. But for example MS would be difficult to categorize, physical and cognitive impacts.

Shadi: Let's look at the examples of cognitive and neurological disabilities. This could be endless like an encyclopedia.

13:13:27 [doylesaylor]

Yeliz: related to examples of disabilities like learning, conceptual, all related to learning disabilities. Say learning disabilities and talk about all together?

13:13:32 [yeliz]

zakim, mute yeliz

13:13:32 [Zakim]

yeliz should now be muted

13:15:37 [doylesaylor]

Shadi: I think mental health disabilities is not related necessarily related to learning disabilities. Learning disabilities is a functional term. Relates to the intelligence of a person, in some countries. And in other countries is related to perception. Intellectual, perceptual, learning are categorized together. May not find this depending on their background when they look. We try to explain what those terms are actually. Listed because they h

13:16:09 [doylesaylor]

Shadi: they are well established terms. The proposal from Yeliz to summarize intellectual perceptual under learning?

13:16:19 [doylesaylor]

Helle: I think you should leave as is.

13:16:23 [doylesaylor]

Ian: Leave it.

13:16:31 [sinarmaya]

me too

13:16:32 [LiamM]

(Liam not Ian) :)

13:16:33 [yeliz]

To me it was not easy to see the differences

13:16:47 [doylesaylor]

Shadi: really complex, sometimes more functional.

13:17:03 [yeliz]

But I am OK to keep it as it is

13:17:17 [andrew]

s/Ian: Leave it./Liam: Leave it.

13:17:18 [yeliz]

I just thought it would be better to make it more concise

13:17:26 [doylesaylor]

Shadi: Maybe I can expand the learning disabilities, instead of the first impairments say it is a functional term. Etc?

13:17:34 [doylesaylor]

Ian: from the examples?

13:18:20 [doylesaylor]

Ian: we covered that in the examples. We have explained the difference in language. If we do somewhere else, I would not duplicate.

13:18:21 [Zakim]

-Sylvie

13:18:38 [doylesaylor]

Shadi: It does say in brackets says it is learning disabilities?

13:19:18 [doylesaylor]

Ian: we may have in the best place. Have in the main paragraph talking about different place have different meanings.

13:19:34 [yeliz]

I was not proposing to add more explanation to do the main text

13:19:42 [Zakim]

+Sylvie

13:19:53 [sylvie]

zakim, mute me

13:19:53 [Zakim]

Sylvie should now be muted

13:21:15 [yeliz]

I think this is for editor's discretion:)

13:21:17 [doylesaylor]

Shadi: I think we are talking about we have three groups and put into one to make more concise. Address the repetitiveness. Put the three sections into one section or the three bullets into one bullet. There is a repetition in the three bullets. The benefit is that they a distinct terms which people are looking for. That is the rationale for those three bullets. There was comments to add autism. The argument is that autism is a different kind of n

13:22:02 [andrew]

+1

13:22:13 [yeliz]

+1

13:22:20 [doylesaylor]

Shadi: the benefits of accessible computers makes a huge different to people's live. That was the rationale for adding autism. I may add MS to highlight neurological, not necessarily cognitve.

13:22:23 [doylesaylor]

Liam: yes

13:22:26 [doylesaylor]

Ian: Yes

13:22:27 [yeliz]

:)

13:23:08 [doylesaylor]

Shadi: I would consider a word or two more added to explain the learning disabilities here.

13:23:41 [doylesaylor]

Ian: where you mention blindness, there is no mention of it's relationship to learning impairments or other disabilities.

13:23:49 [doylesaylor]

Shadi: let me check.

13:23:56 [shadi]

action: consider adding MS or another example of neurlogical disability that is not necessarily cognitive

13:24:19 [Zakim]

-sinarmaya

13:24:31 [shadi]

action: consider adding a word or two more to explain the difference between learning disabilities and the other related disabilities

13:25:12 [doylesaylor]

Shadi: your point Liam, the first paragraph says it can impact hearing, moving seeing, but there is not a lot of detail. But says what the other sections would say.

13:25:20 [yeliz]

zakim, mute me

13:25:20 [Zakim]

yeliz was already muted, yeliz

13:25:32 [doylesaylor]

Ian: that would be good what we have got.

13:25:47 [doylesaylor]

Shadi: suggestions? I will think about what you say.

13:26:03 [shadi]

action: consider explaining the link between cognitive & neurlogical and other types of disabilities (like visual) more clearly

Shadi: with a physical disability an option is to have speech input, but a voice impairment is not enough for the input.

13:36:45 [doylesaylor]

Andrew: an accent is also difficult.

13:37:39 [sinarmaya]

To me is not clear the 2º example: "Organizations that provide phone numbers instead of making their websites accessible". Maybe can be: Organizations that relied in phone communication and don't offer alternative ways of contact.

13:37:40 [doylesaylor]

Shadi: revisit that. Other comments on speech disabilities?

13:37:45 [Zakim]

-sinarmaya

13:38:05 [doylesaylor]

Shadi: I think cross referencing aspect is important.

13:38:43 [doylesaylor]

Shadi: The idea to clarify Emmanuelle? A little more? I'll take a pass at that.

Shadi: I will take a note to think about. There are certain things, more specifically like skip links. Visual ones are the design like screen enlargement. Magnifies to help you orient yourself. A magnified page. Quite difficult to grasp and is not clear. Comments?

13:45:42 [andrew]

[may be add 'glare sensitivity' as an example of brightness being a problem]

13:46:27 [doylesaylor]

Shadi: Now that we have gone through the sections. I have some specific questions to bring in. Having put the categories together. i wonder how that title works on that page. Accessilities barriers but this page talks about more than barriers. Ideas about this page here?

13:46:57 [shadi]

[[Accessibility Needs]]

13:47:30 [shadi]

[[Accessibility Needs]] -- [[Technical Requirements]]

13:47:38 [doylesaylor]

Shadi: a suggestion would be Accessibility Needs. Change to technical requirements?

13:47:46 [andrew]

[[ disability and barriers]]

13:47:50 [doylesaylor]

Andrew: disability barriers?

13:48:14 [sinarmaya]

+1 for accessibility needs

13:48:31 [sylvie]

I like needs too

13:48:32 [doylesaylor]

shadi: the comment disability access is prominent, often the barriers come from the environment we want to move away from the disability causes the barrier.

13:48:48 [doylesaylor]

Andrew: technical requirements would work for me.

13:48:56 [doylesaylor]

Liam: are they requirements?

13:49:35 [doylesaylor]

Liam: things we are missing are I am getting hung up from moving from requirements to success criteria.

13:50:03 [doylesaylor]

shadi: there is some agreement to change from accessibility barriers to accessibility needs.

13:50:19 [doylesaylor]

Liam: are we talking about the heading?

13:51:02 [doylesaylor]

Shadi: It would change in the left navigation bar, in the headings, and related resources listed on other pages. Whereever it is referenced it would be accessibility needs instead of barriers.

13:51:34 [doylesaylor]

Liam: I'm not sure that needs are the equivalent, something like understanding accessibility barriers feels closer.

13:51:42 [doylesaylor]

Sharron: I agree with that.

13:51:48 [doylesaylor]

Shadi: It could work.

13:52:01 [doylesaylor]

Liam: I am uncomfortable with the idea of disability needs.

13:52:12 [doylesaylor]

Shadi: Ok. Other brain storms.

13:52:33 [Zakim]

-Liam_McGee

13:52:41 [doylesaylor]

Liam: by using barriers it is the developers, but needs is the user. Gets the idea across that it is them that causes this.

13:53:02 [doylesaylor]

Sharron: what you are talking about conditions for maximum access. Optimum experience.

13:53:16 [doylesaylor]

Sharron: An enabled environment?

13:53:30 [doylesaylor]

Shadi: right does this page do that?

13:53:42 [Zakim]

+Liam_McGee

13:53:49 [doylesaylor]

Shadi: what does this page tell you?

13:54:03 [doylesaylor]

Liam: What Sharron is great.

13:54:28 [yeliz]

+1

13:54:29 [doylesaylor]

Shadi: does this explain the issue of suboptimal environment.

13:54:36 [yeliz]

I think it discusses *issues*

13:54:44 [andrew]

and causes

13:54:45 [doylesaylor]

Liam: I think it explains the sub optimal envrionment.

13:54:51 [doylesaylor]

shadi: Other?

13:55:17 [doylesaylor]

Liam: we ended up with barriers because we didn't like disabilities?

13:56:04 [doylesaylor]

Shadi: To me it doesn't only talk about disability barriers. Media players to make the environment optimal. It does more than a page like disability barriers like a list of mark up.

13:56:10 [doylesaylor]

Liam: what users want?

13:56:15 [shadi]

[[what users want]]

13:56:16 [doylesaylor]

Shadi: that is nice.

13:56:33 [Zakim]

-hbj

13:56:53 [doylesaylor]

Shadi: How about accessibility requirements?

13:57:02 [sinarmaya]

Yes, I like "what users wants"

13:57:22 [doylesaylor]

LIam we have used already. I am uncomfortable with it because it makes it the user when the key is the fault of the developers.