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zwei2stein writes "I found this question with far-reaching implications in the off-topic section of a forum I frequent: 'My economics teacher is forcing us to give up all of our work for the semester. Every page of notes and paper must be turned over to her to be destroyed to prevent future students from copying it. My binder was in my backpack, and she went into my backpack to take it. Is that legal?' Besides the issue with private property invasion, which was the trigger of that post, there is much more important question: Can a teacher ask a student not to retain knowledge? How does IP law relate to teaching and sharing knowledge? Whose property are those notes?"

A scanner will do even better. If a teacher tried that shit with me I'd spend the time to type the notes (redacting anything that might refelect my style) and ensure they spread widely. I would instantly lie when asked for the notes, either that I didn't have them or that they were mixed with unrelated info.

It is OK to lie to enemies, so be ready and be convincing.Friends deserve the truth, courts command it, but opponents should be defeated. The teacher removed any moral obligation to respect her when she demanded the notes.

This is exactly the sort of response that make things worse. I'm all for *sticking* it to the teacher, but there are better ways that won't expose you to unnecessary accusations of being a bad actor.

Every school has an ombudsman whose purpose is to negotiate conflicts between students and the administration / faculty. They are usually very pro-student. I have zero doubt this issue would be resolved in favor of the students, but you have to approach it diplomatically... scorched earth policies make as much sense here as they do in international relations.

Then you're licensing your own work, since the copyright of your own notes falls to you.

Of course, this is much murkier legal waters than the question the OP asked, which IMHO is pretty straightfoward: since the teacher was teaching them, and no other contract was in place, an implicit personal use license was granted.

Are you implying that the teacher somehow has a copyright on the information taught in the classroom? The teacher was speaking, and since that speech is not "fixed in a tangible medium", the teacher has no copyright at all whatsoever. In fact, this is one of the few cases left where speech is still free of the evil spectre of copyright.

For extra credit, do it in the style of Phil Hartman's "Newsradio" character:

Hand over a copy."Here's one you can take right now!"And another copy."This one you can tear up later."Put another on her desk."Here's one for the Hamptons."Pull out another copy."This one I like. I keep."Throw another copy to the floor."This one displeases me."

Ya know, that's a good point. This is GOVERNMENT that we are talking about. A teacher can no more copyright her notes, than a Congressman can copyright his speeches in the House, or a president copyright his emails in the White House, or the FCC chairman copyright his documentations/rulings.

It's the People's property. All things in government belong to the people, and is public domain. Some of it might be kept secret for defense purposes, but eventually it gets released. This teacher is a government employee and all things she creates while on the government clock belong to the People, and in the public domain.

Neither cheating or plagiarism will be impacted because only the honest students will turn in their only copy of the notes

What do you mean there? Not "honest students", but "stupid students". The teacher has no right whatsoever to these notes. A good student will keep his notes and refer to them in the future when necessary, for example when he or she needs the information later in their professional life. That's what school is for, to teach you knowledge that you can use throughout your life. If you return or destroy those notes, that is completely defeating the purpose of education.

And if you borrow these notes to someone else to learn from them? Well, that is the purpose of education, isn't it? To make people learn. So if in the next year, some student goes to that teachers class and doesn't understand something, isn't it the best thing that student can do to get someone's notes and learn on their own accord what they missed in class?

Besides that, anyone turning in their notes to an _economy_ teacher proves that they didn't understand the basics of copyright law and property law. Instant fail of the course, if you ask me.

Besides that, does that article give you a clue why Europeans are either laughing their heads off or throwing up when Americans claim they live in the "freeest of all countries"?

I would go further and say not stupid but compliant. Students are becoming more and more compliant. It makes my job easier in some cases, but blind obedience to authority doesn't really mesh with my subject matter (mathematics.) It takes fully half the year before students understand that things aren't true just because I said they are.

Kids are still rebellious, to be sure, but they express their rebellion in stupid, unimportant ways like abusing drugs and alcohol or using the "wrong" words that they know adults don't want them to say. I'd much rather they rebelled by not accepting statements without proof.

In my opinion, the schools' function of teaching kids to respect authority is at fault because alongside this they need to learn to detect authority. Anyone can be handed a title that they don't deserve. Authority is earned.

I would go further and say not stupid but compliant. Students are becoming more and more compliant.

Well what do you expect?

From the moment they entered primary school 15 years ago, they have been under the boot of a "one-strike" "zero-tolerance" public school system that rewards blind obedience and conformity and punishes individuality and critical though. They've walked through metal detectors every weekday of their lives. They have been subject to the threat of daily, random searches of their person and locker. They know that if they even hint that they are not going to follow their arbitrarily assigned authority figures' arbitrary rules to the letter, they will be disciplined, and that discipline record will prevent them from succeeding in the future.

You expect these people to all of a sudden become curious, critical thinking citizens???

Yeah I think you're mostly right. This is often reinforced at home where parents demand the same kind of blind obedience to themselves (parents), teachers, police, your boss, your commanding officer, etc.

The problem is certainly present in schools but is not confined to them.

You expect these people to all of a sudden become curious, critical thinking citizens???

I agree. I went through high school in the mid-seventies, and it was an entirely different ball game. For example, I managed to acquire passwords to just about every active account on the school's mainframe: I didn't do anything with that information and I eventually pointed out to the administration that they needed to fix a few things (Good Samaritan-style: it would be too risky to tell anyone about a security flaw nowadays, they'd call the FBI on you.) So, I got in a small amount of trouble (they called my parents), but they fixed the problem and that was that. If I were in high school in present times... hell. I'd have been up on terrorism charges at age 17.

Still, it's all in the same vein: teachers/administrators want extraordinary powers in order to make their jobs easier, law enforcement wants extraordinary powers to make their jobs easier, copyright holders want extraordinary powers in order to make their jobs easier... the list goes on. Nobody is willing to just deal with the fact that some things are legitimately difficult and that it's better for all that they be left that way.

Also, some people honestly believe that if they just make the system harsh enough, make punishments severe enough, people will stop doing things that the powers-that-are don't want them to. In reality, of course, all they're doing is training a generation of people that have no respect for authority, because that authority doesn't respect them. Two-way street and all that.

You know, it would be kind of amusing to offer a trade. When the teacher asks for the notes, say "I will trade you my notes for a signed statement affirming your assertion that nothing you have taught any of your students will ever be of use to any of them for the rest of their lives and that your entire professional career has been a meaningless sham. If you want to add an addendum about how you are a charlatan and scam artist, you are free to do so."

Actually, this is very true. I'm tired of seeing stuff on Fark about England banning yet another harmless object because it's the tiniest bit dangerous. Likewise, I'm getting tired of no one in America having the backbone to stand up and simply refuse to do things like give up their notes just because a teacher says so. It may be a school policy, but if every student always refused, what would they do? The school would either quickly run out of money, or quickly axe that policy so they won't run out of money.

If the copy was lawfully made (i.e. with permission of the Copyright holder) then it belongs to the person who owns the piece of paper. The Copyright holder can't demand that they return it, destroy it, not sell it, etc... It's called the "Doctrine of First Sale." You don't need a license to "use" your own legit copy of anything, with some exceptions for creation of derivate works, public performance to people not in the presence of the physical copy, rental of software, and a few others.

The teacher can only achieve the desired outcome by entering into an agreement (i.e. a Contract) with the students beforehand that all copies of the notes will be turned at the end of the semester. In other words, there's nothing in Copyright law that gives the Teacher the right demand the students return their notes, even if they copied them from the teacher with his permission.

If the copy was lawfully made (i.e. with permission of the Copyright holder) then it belongs to the person who owns the piece of paper.

That makes sense, otherwise the whole situation gets mind-bendingly stupid. And then what happens when someone takes notes on a computer? Reaching into my bag and taking my computer without permission would seem to be a lot more serious.

My remedy would be to try and have the teacher charged with theft. Involving an otherwise law-abiding person with the criminal justice system, which imho is almost as bad as trying to retrieve class notes. It's like you have to become stupid to fight stupid...sort of a stupid arms race. All of that effort to stop an otherwise intelligent person from being a massive retard. Which is okay, it's a free country. I always tell my neighbors if they're going to be stupid, do it indoors. Don't put it on public display. Except this teacher was being invasively silly, which requires an equally silly response to get them to wake up to the fact they're being an idiot. That cycle raises the stupid background radiation for all of us, wastes a huge amount of time and effort, generates hard feelings and takes productive effort away from more worthy, non-stupid pursuits. All because there's no objective way to show someone being unreasonable that their behavior is, in fact, silly.

There's a mathematical formula in here somewhere but someone took my notes.

"We have held that checkpoint searches are constitutional only if justified by consent or probable cause to search....And our holding today is limited to the type of stops described in this opinion. -[A]ny further detention...must be based on consent or probable cause." i.e. Without probable cause, like noises coming from the trunk, the homeland security checkpoints that are randomly placed in certain states may NOT search your car.

Works of authorship become protected by Copyright as soon as they are fixed in a tangible medium of expression. A Copyright notice is not necessary anymore. However, it is a good idea since it establishes authorship and date of authorship, and reduces the possibility that someone might innocently believe the work is not protected.

I always had run-ins with teachers because I thought they were being unfair or something. Until I realized that things would work smoother for myself if I just assumed I lived in a tyranny and I'd have to work hard to be able to escape it as soon as possible.

Your advice is not going to make things simpler for the topic starter. Best is to question the situation politely and in firm terms. If no response happens, leave it the hell alone and get the hell out as soon as possible.

The correct thing to do is to go to an appropriate dean (which one depends on how the school is structured - in the university I attended, it could have been the dean who oversees the professor, or the dean of the college of my major, or the "dean of students") and explain that the professor opened your backpack without your permission and took from you notes which you wrote on paper you paid for, and that this is theft and you want your notes back. If they are reluctant to act, explain to them very politely that you're trying to help them by not making this criminal theft a matter for the police, and won't they please consider doing something about it?

Also, this is quite honestly lazy ass teaching. Reusing 100% of the material year after year...? Hell no. Theories change, textbooks update, and teaching methods improve. Beyond that, as pointed out before, the notes are for your future reference, not just for reference of the class. If you were to write all your notes into the margins of your textbook, would they tell you that you have to burn the book?

Bring this to the Dean first. If nothing else, just to get his/her reaction. If the Dean thinks this is

Right. Additionally this is a teaching concern. If the teacher is so concerned with cheating that they are willing to go to such great lengths to prevent it then perhaps they would best be counseled by their peers.

This seems to be a case of the teacher being too lazy to mix things up from year to year. Additionally (Especially at a college level) You are paying for that class, and those notes are one of the few means available to re-study the material from. If I got wiff of this ahead of time, my notes would be at home. If necessary - I would negotiate a review of the situation with the teachers boss before agreeing to anything, and that teacher would basically have to take my backpack off me to get at my notes, which I will likely assume to be a form of assault and respond in kind (which means pushing their arm away and leaving (Hey - this isn't my house, I have to retreat before striking back))

This is probably really good advice, as cynical as it is. The truth of the matter is, freedom is one dead dog.

Yes, it is cynical, and a very defeatist attitude. Not to sound naive, but freedom is only as dead as you let it become.

Of course you're not going to single handedly stem the tide of wrong, but if you don't do anything at all, what good is that? As one of the other posts above said, you must be assertive in protecting your rights and freedoms, but not necessarily aggressive.

Stand up for yourself, see what happens, and take it from there. You can't win every battle, but if you don't even try you'll just keep losing.

Yes, it is cynical, and a very defeatist attitude. Not to sound naive, but freedom is only as dead as you let it become.

Sorry, but the school I went to (sometimes) allowed me the fun game of watching pupils (that is, 13 and 14 year old kids) punching teachers in the face without any kind of retribution, and here comes the fun part, then those same kids would turn around and punch me, while the teacher watches and does nothing.

I am now aware this isn't an entirely normal school experience, but I wasn't at the time. If I was late for class the excuse "Well, my nose is bleeding, I have bruises on my face and twigs in my hair an

I am now aware this isn't an entirely normal school experience, but I wasn't at the time.

No, but having read/. for years, it's not too uncommon here. Personally, I'm in an extreme minority here, having actually enjoyed high school for the most part. I attended a "GATE"/magnet public high school and while there's always some amount of bullying and/or unhappiness, it was generally good with excellent teachers.

Most of the teachers enjoyed their jobs (although one of my English teachers was something of a flake) and did a decent

I agree completely. It is very important as an academic to ensure that this instructor's behavior is not tolerated. Your school most likely has a well-defined policy for behavior, and what many people often fail to realize is that this policy cuts both ways. It lays out expected behavior for both students and teachers.

When I was a college sophomore, I took an introductory geosciences class to fill a gen-ed requirement. Now, most of the people in this class had pinned their hopes on a curve in this class, but I enjoyed the subject material, and in general, I took my studies very seriously.

However, around the time of the midterm exam, I came down with a horrible stomach bug, and was unable to attend class. I contacted the professor ahead of the exam, and had even made the effort to get a doctor's note. But the professor actually had the gall to tell me "tough luck, kid" in writing. I wrote a letter back to the professor, copying both my advisor and the Dean of Students, citing portions of the Undergraduate Code of Conduct (the "arbitrary and capricious" part was the money quote), and pasting this nice , little "tough luck, kid" part into the letter.

Within 24 hours the professor had scheduled a time for me to do a make-up exam.

It may seem like students often get the shit-end of the stick, but keep in mind, these people work for you, even if they don't always act like it.

Forcibly stealing papers from a student's bag is pretty much on the same level as a teacher sexually assaulting a student.

Uhhhh, you had my right up to this point. I agree with pretty much everything you are saying, but you are amazingly full of shit with this sentence. Amazingly. GARGANTUAN even.:)I say this in a friendly way too, don't take it personally.

Let's look at the following two events in a classroom:

1) I pick up your book bag. Unzip it. Take several papers, books, and containers from you. Hell I even take the whole bag.

2) I pick YOU UP. I unzip YOUR PANTS. I roughly jam my cock up your ass. As the students are watching I sodomize you for several minutes until I give my "O" face to the class.

#1 != #2. Not even close. In fact, if you were to make a system of measurement those two events would be orders apart.

#1 = Civil penalties and maybe a little jail time. Probably time served and community service. Termination of employment.

#2 = Criminal penalties, hard prison time and even harder prison sex, and permanent registration as a sex offender which in various states is an enormous impediment to a normal life.

1) I pick up your book bag. Unzip it. Take several papers, books, and containers from you. Hell I even take the whole bag....#1 = Civil penalties and maybe a little jail time. Probably time served and community service. Termination of employment.

I had no idea theft was a civil offense. I mean physical theft where you take away some person's property, not the copyright violations that some people call "theft" today.

Thanks to the MAFIAA, people seem to be blurring the lines between philosophical discussion and actual physical violence where someone's property is forcibly taken away.

FTFA: "My binder was in my backpack, and she went into my backpack to take it"

Hey folks, write this down: TAKING AWAY A BINDER IS THEFT. COPYING A FILE IS NOT THEFT. Is this clear?

Excuse me, seriously, what state is this you live in? In the People's Republic of California, the primary focus of public education is herd training the students into a sheep-like mass who know how to give proper deference to their betters, and if a student has the temerity to call the police they will find that the teacher has friends in low places- ever hear the old student slogan? "Don't tase me, Bro."

1) With the school.
2) With the local police.
3) Contact a major news outlet.
4) Refuse going to that class until settled.
5) Contact local ACLU type outfit.
Write down the event now, while it's still fresh.

Hold it. You may actually deal with a sensible school board. Yeah, sounds funny, but such things exist. They may be very interested in settling this quietly, return the notes and do what they love to do: pretend nothing ever happened. And that's basically what the OP wants, if I got him/her right.

Once you blow it up and it gets news coverage, they can't simply return the notes and sweep it under the rug. They'll probably start to make up some big excuse why this is necessary in an attempt to save face, the student gets all sorts of troubles... Realize that schools have a lot of abilities to make oyur life really miserable if you're a student there.

So far, the principal could still be unaware of the problem and be on the side of the student.

This is not what I said, if you read my post. But they usually get very defensive when you take your problems outside.

I've had my share of school troubles. And my principal was VERY interested in keeping troubles "in house". I made it pretty clear that "we'll warn him" will not silence me, so actions were taken that satisfied me. Ultimately it led to a teacher being transfered to another school. You can accomplish a lot when you know just how much pressure to use. Too little and nothing gets done. Too much

... back in my undergrad days I had an issue with a professor who tried to pull his own stunts, even trying to call me out (while claiming to not know who he was calling out) publically in class. After a conversation with couple of lawyers and a few folks at the university after making a complaint of harassment (me being a white male who at the time was in his early 20's) and which at one point resulting in the university president calling me on my cell personally, it was decided that given the professors work was a paid for by the university, they had effectively no rights to it... so my copious note taking, and eventual whole scale recording of classes what perfectly legitimate and up to the university... and not the individual professor who was being paid to perform for the classes behalf.

As sad as I am to say it... a tape recorder, obvious or not (ideally obvious be it in public or private) can be your best friend... though in my case I also had a laptop recording everything as well.

Let me give you the advice I was given when I was dealing with an overzealous professor who thought they were god in the classroom and eventually was threatening to sue me and the school... talk to a lawyer.

Remember though... I am not a lawyer, I've just talked to a few over this issue and think you should to.

i would like to add to this that in many countries, it is illegal to record audio (but not images) of someone without their permission. if you don't have the professor's permission to record the class, you could be in some legal trouble if you are caught.

note: this didn't stop me from making recordings of several of my courses.

I've archived every single note from every class, and even now, 3 years later, i will review a random class from time to time to keep it fresh in my mind.

This is a weird situation (in the case of a public University) because arguably most of the money for the lecture comes from the public... but it is not a public forum. The University has the right to restrict the lecture to students who have paid tuition.

However, if you are a student, and you have paid tuition, you have every right to all materials that are presented in that lecture.

My University (after some legal wrangling) recognized this and thereafter allowed the Student Body Association to record (on paper) and sell "official" lecture notes for recurring lectures, and in fact found it to be a valuable educational tool for those who could not take good notes, or could not keep up due to language or coordination problems, etc.

Everybody benefited as a result.

Study is study. Lecture notes do not help people "cheat", except in the sense that they might not have to physically be present at the lecture in order to benefit from them. They still have to read the notes and learn the material. Heck... that's what televised lectures are all about anyway!

Study is study. Lecture notes do not help people "cheat", except in the sense that they might not have to physically be present at the lecture in order to benefit from them.

Funny thing for me is that I find the whole situation bullshit from the beginning. I understand the idea is to verify that the student has retained the information and more preferably can demonstrate an application of that knowledge in a meaningfully productive way. What I find is bullshit about it, is that it does not represent real life for many people in most the of the areas of study that I am aware of.

Personally, I have an inordinate number of reference books around me and when I code I even have a whole monitor dedicated just to references on my systems. Many people are no different. Mechanics, Plumbers, Doctors, Lawyers, Coders, Technicians, Teachers, etc. all have access to reference materials around them at all times. You almost cannot do most of the jobs without it.

The value that a class should provide, IMHO, is the core understanding of the material itself and how to apply it. Critical thinking. Additionally, any academic institution should be instilling very strong research skills into their students. Research is a person's real strength. Not that they have the answer immediately on the tip of their tongue, but they can say, "I don't know, but I will get the answer shortly". Over time any experienced person will refer to the references less and less, but they will never have to stop doing research.

Look at this way. If you have no beforehand knowledge of the material and you cannot apply it to a problem either, how can references possibly help you solve a problem in a real world time-frame? You would lose the contract or get fired since you have zero experience entering the field. A genius cannot become a doctor and diagnose and heal a bunch of people within 24 hours with references alone. It would be a rather huge learning curve to overcome.

The only way you could do that in an academic setting is if the test is multiple choice, and multiple choice tests are the biggest single catastrophic failure in our education systems since we first had written languages. There is always one right answer, a reasonable answer that is not correct, and a 2 or 3 other answers that are off the wall bullshit. It's the easy way out for educators and most often leaves students with very little retention of the material over time. Life is not a multiple choice test. I know that sounds counter intuitive, but it is true. There is not always a sign in front of you with the correct course of action. You have to be able to think and gather all the data around you and analyze it. In short, research skills.

I would absolutely challenge anybody to the following experiment. Have 100 students that have been discussing the material for 6 months with their professors and each other. Have 100 students in isolation, or with no exposure to the material at all. Create a test with no multiple choice answers. This test would have so many questions that nobody could answer them all within the testing period. Allow any and all references to the students during the test.

Grade it according to a curve. Look at how many wrong answers a person gives relative the right answers. Then look at that relative to their peers.

I would be willing to bet the 1st set of students do dramatically better overall than the 2nd. Some of the students in the 2nd group may be do as well as their 1st group peers, but I would bet they are already possess exceptional research abilities and be able to think fast on their feet. Some of the students in the 1st group may be "low watt bulbs". Even after being exposed to the material for six months and talking about they have not retained much information or garnered any insights as well.

The students that do well in such an experiment would probably do well in any real world setting too.

Problem with testing that way is that it represents more work for the teacher. However, that is what teaching assistants are for. Just do the damned work IMO. My tuition paid for it.

Is the purpose of a college class to give a student knowledge of a field of study? Or is it to just award a credit towards a degree?

Sound to me that the lecturer thinks it's the latter, which is a problem. Those notes are a valuable resource to any student who wants to retain that knowledge, whether for future classes, a job after college, or just for the pure love of knowledge for its own sake. The student has paid for those notes in time, effort, and money. Asking him to give them up is short-sighted and stupid. Taking them from his backpack is theft.

I'll venture a quick guess... Ms. Galindo, Harlandale High School, San Antonio, TX? (I'm surprised she's still teaching if so, she has to be pushing 70 by now. I graduated in 1996..didn't have her for classes, but knew of her antics far too well.)

If it isn't her, I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that someone else would do the same.

Besides being anal about exactly how students take notes, she was notorious for making all students turn in their notebooks at the end of the year. She would make sure they were complete (you'd fail the entire class if not) and then make you shove it through an industrial shredder she had brought in just for this task.

Fun fact: She was teaching there as far back as the 70's...a family friend had her back then. The friend ended up out of school due to medical issues. An hour after waking up from a major surgery that had her gutted like a fish, that teacher was on the phone making sure she was doing her homework.

Forcing you to give up your notes is effectively saying that you must retain everything in your head, which is ridiculous.

They're your notes, you paid to be able to take them. She has no right.

And even beyond that, it's unreasonable search and seizure by a civilian (what would that fall under, larceny?) for her to go into your backpack without your permission. File a police report and involve the administration of your school.

Assuming you are NOT a minor and are in college then they have no right to take your notes. As stated before you wrote them so they are your property. I would at least file a formal complaint even if the professor is tenured and talk to a lawyer.

On the other hand if you are a minor and this isn't college then your rights (if any) will depend. In this case it really depends on what your parents are willing to do and or back you doing.

Are you serious? You allowed the teacher to go into your backpack, which is your private property, and take something which belonged to you, while doing nothing about it? Not even the cops can go into your backpack like that.

Why are so many people so freakin spineless?

I don't want to sound like an internet warrior here, but dude, if a teacher tried to do that to me, I would prevent them, pushing / punching / kicking them if I had to as a last resort.

(No, this does not make me a 'violent idiot' as someone else stated, it just means I have enough backbone stand up for myself in person with ACTION rather than on the internet with words. ACTION is the only sort of standing up that really matters, when it all comes down to it.)

You do know that you have the right to defend your personal property, right? Man up.

Yes, I know this could lead to repercussions from the university, such as being threatened with expulsion - that's when you get lawyers involved.

There's no way to say how it would pan out, but you have the advantage that, in the eyes of the law, you are in the right and they are in the wrong - provided you don't pull a weapon or beat them to death, anyway. That equates to a lot of potential negative publicity which the university probably doesn't want.

If you make a big enough stink about it, they'll most likely just let it slide eventually - though it will be tough for a while.

You might get kicked out, but Jesus H Christ man, you cannot go through life acting like a minnow and bending over when you know what someone else is doing is wrong.

STAND UP for yourself for god's sake. Let the chips fall where they may. When you get to the end of your life, you aren't going to wish you were nicer to that teacher (instead of punching them square in the solar plexus), but you will probably regret allowing people to trample all over you and never quite getting what you wanted.

Well you can't do anything now since you consented to her taking them by letting her in your backpack.
Sounds like you just got a lesson in 4th amendment rights. Never let anyone, including authority figures cop teachers, have your personal property ever. Even if you have nothing to hide.

Well you can't do anything now since you consented to her taking them by letting her in your backpack. Sounds like you just got a lesson in 4th amendment rights. Never let anyone, including authority figures cop teachers, have your personal property ever. Even if you have nothing to hide.

Of course you can do something. He didn't consent to hand it over, he was tricked into falsely believing that she had the right to it. So making him hand it over fully fits the definition of fraud: Fraud happens when you hand over your property yourself because you were made to believe something which is not true, whereas theft happens when something is just taken away from you illegally. If he believed she had the right to take his notes and handed them over, she committed fraud. If he refused to hand them over and she just took them, then it is theft.

That's pretty disgusting. Not only for the obvious invasion of privacy (reaching into the bag - not for suspected contraband) but mostly because the teacher never changing the curriculum.

This is the epitome of terrible teaching, to me. The teacher could no longer give a fuck about 'freshening things up' and instead will drone on, with *exactly* the same material, year after year. The kids in the class will pick up on that vibe and will never experience the joy that *can* be found in the material.

...such as a livescribe pulse, or the like would allow you to capture not just the notes you take during the class, but in some cases the actual audio involved. Each day sync the pen to your computer, post your notes to your web page and blog. At the end of the year turn in the notebook as requested, and for your reference from then on, either look up the data on your web page, or print out the online edition of the notebook.

After the term is graded, and the grades are recorded permanently, publicly thank the teacher for wasting the time you spent in the class, as the notes you took as part of the class are no longer available to refer back to.

From my own experience, I have to admit that perhaps one or two of the classes I took through the various schools that I attended, ever provided me with useful reference material for subsequent classes. In almost all cases the real intent of the class is to learn how to find the answer to the question, and rarely ever has it been strictly having the 'correct' answer.

That applied to being able to demonstrate in the materials turned in for projects that you were able to derive the correct information, or in situations where research on a subject was required, being able to demonstrate that you were able to find resources that support the conclusion you are presenting, or in some cases the ability to propose a conjecture, and demonstrate through the appropriate research that the conjecture is invalid.

The knowledge gained in the process should become a tool you can use that does not rely on the material specific to that course.

In much of the US, high school students are required to take classes in a couple of English classes, some variety of mathematics, a Science class, and a variety of general electives. I strongly suspect that the vast majority of college students have never picked up their high school notebook for one of these classes to refer back to when attempting to understand a topic being discussed in college.

One side effect of this teacher's process very well may be to instruct the student in the value that their notes may have later on, but only if the material is available to them, and reviewed. If you have constructed a means of insuring that your notes are available to you, whether it be with a pen that captures your notes, or if you personally spend time each week transcribing your notes into your computer, or into another notebook, then you will have gained on the availability side, if not on the initiative to review those notes.

Think also of the library at Alexandria. We very well know that we lost significant knowledge of a number of topics as a result of it burning, and have no way of knowing if we have recovered that knowledge, or not.

Server admins have a pretty good idea of the value of having an available backup of the files on the server.

... I was eating candy while reading. The librarian came up and demanded that I stop eating in the library and to give her the candy. I said no. She tried to take it away but I grabbed it, said I would put it away and proceeded to put it in my backpack. She tried to grab it from my backpack and I slapped her hand. She looked shocked and walked away. I was 16 or 17 at the time. I suffered zero repercussions due to my actions.

In essence, get a spine. Someone cannot just take your property just because they want it. It doesn't matter if they are in a perceived position of authority. They don't have the right. That is unless you've entered into contract that states that they can. Which you haven't mentioned is the case and is *far* from standard practice at high schools in North America. Not to mention that minors can't enter into contract.

But, at this point, I'd suggest going to the Principle *with your parents* to get this resolved. If they don't budge, then local news outlets are *always* looking for stories. I'm sure they'd be interested in this.

Is this in the US? Canada? Europe? It's kind of hard to formulate a legal defense/explanation for this without knowing the jurisdiction. The Internet is Global, what passes muster in one country may be completely alien in another. Please provide more context or a link to the original forum post.

This suggests a bad teacher/professor. If your students can get by simply by copying notes, then you are not teaching the subject properly. Students need to learn to apply the subject, not just repeat memorized notes.

In a properly taught class, all the notes and books in the world available to you during the exam won't save you unless you learned and understand the subject.

Many responses here seem extremely excessive, especially on a site that is usually quick to criticise going heavy-handed with lawyers. Why go with the weapon of last resort and eliminate all the other options provided for the purpose?

Try being reasonable and diplomatic. That won't limit the heavier options later on and can actually benefit them - here in the UK you are generally expected to extinguish reasonable options before going to court (either way it'll certainly look better).

Try simply explaining that you require the notes to maintain the knowledge for use in later life and have no intention of handing it out to others. Carefully explain that the notes are your property, both physically (you bought the paper) and intellectually, making the position clear but leaving the teacher's own mind to envision the potential for legal action. You DID supply the paper, and there isn't any slide handouts in there, right?

If that still doesn't work, advise the teacher that she should not destroy the notes while you explore other options (being careful to be non-threatening). At this point there may be a more friendly teacher you could approach who may be able to mediate and tactfully resolve this without fuss. People change their minds more readily when it is a friend/colleague/peer presenting their perspective, and where there is minimal consequence from being wrong. Why be all confrontational? This goes both ways: it's an opportunity for YOU to discover you are wrong, in a manner with minimal consequences for you...

If that fails, keep elevating it one step at a time. That would probably involve a parent writing to the teacher, the headteacher and next attending a PTA/PTO meeting.

Still not resolved? No doubt there are still more options and then, ultimately, court and/or newspapers. The intermediate steps will only benefit these options, not reduce them.

Organisations and society in general provide numerous means, checks and balances to sustain your rights. It's such a pity when people ignore them and skip to the option of last resort - courts are supposed to be there only for when society and organisations fail to provide fairness and justice.

Can't these people consider proportionality and appropriateness? Is it really necessary to harm a teachers career and potentially the school for the sake of some notes, without even bothering to make some common sense attempts first?

This was a number of years ago before some of the sociopolitical changes that led to TFA's situation.In my case we agreed to it beforehand.I was taking advanced organic synthesis, and what we had to do was make a new molecule, something that had never been made before (or, less attractively, had never been made by that particular route.)I chose to make explosives. My girlfriend at the time chose to make methamphetamines. The teacher talked it over with each of us and we agreed, in writing, before we started, that when we finished the school would confiscate and destroy our notebooks and reports... but they let us do it.The material we were producing was clearly dangerous, but in both cases they were novel syntheses that fulfilled the criteria for the class project. We knew that the work we were doing was going to be destroyed at the end of the term before we started. It seemed fair to me.

If i understand correctly , the problem is the some students cheat by copying over the tests and homework.

All the teacher has to do is give different tests and homework for each class. How hard can that be ? My teachers always worked this way.

I must have been lucky. The teachers at my school spent the entire year preparing my class for the exams. They taught us how to figure out how to answer the questions, and about the topic! They loved it when we wrote down the notes so we could follow up after class and review what they had told us.

(A) Let me know when high schools start having fraternities. The origin of this story was a high school student. But regardless, in the case of colleges:

(B) Frats and so on have been building up files on her class for years already, and will continue to do so. My University found that it was pointless to fight this and allowed the Student Body Association to print and sell copies of "official" lecture notes, approved by the professors, for recurring lectures. As it turned out, it was a very positive thing and everybody benefitted except those who were too poor to spend $10 for a semester's worth of notes.

(C) Yes, self-taken notes belong to the writer.

(D) This is a matter of legal rights, not University rules, so whether the professor is tenured or not is irrelevant. Lawyers and police can nail a tenured professor for theft and invasion as easily as one with no tenure.

(E) "Don't file a police report", my ass. If somebody steals my property, I am going to report it. Again, this is not a matter of rules, it is a matter of the law. The more illegal activities you allow someone to get away with, the more they begin to feel they have the right to do it.

Are you fucking kidding me? Did YOU pay for that notebook? No? Then I'm filing that police report, and I'm having your ass arrested for THEFT OF PROPERTY. Ripping the notes from my paid-for notebook will result in a willful damage and vandalism charge or two being put on you as well. Let's see how high and mighty you are after spending some time in jail, not to mention what that would immediately do to your career as a teacher in any capacity.

Agreed. Her goal is to prevent cheating. That may be laudable in and of itself, but this is a stupid way to go about it, for all kinds of reasons. It's probably illegal. And ineffective at stopping cheating.

Also, the teacher has put herself into a lousy position. If she gives the student a poor grade at the end of the term, then he can file a grievance claiming that she actively prevented him from earning a higher grade by destroying his notes. That's solid grounds for a complaint. Furthermore, it sounds as if she did this to the entire class. They've all got grounds for that claim.

By destroying the notes, the teacher has also destroyed any trust the students might have had in her, and seriously undermined her own credibility. She's lost any claim to impartiality here. No one can teach effectively under those circumstances, even an otherwise good teacher. It's stupid.

And worse, it's destructive. She's actively preventing her students from learning. As a college teacher myself, I am outraged. This is not acceptable professional conduct.

The student should immediately file a formal complaint with the teacher's department and the dean. I strongly suspect that the teacher will be removed from the class and replaced by someone else, as she is in no position to finish out the term now.

It's too early to file a legal challenge, but the student would be well advised to consult a lawyer immediately to discover what the legal options are in case things go badly.

Does it actually matter if the story is true or not, as long as it gives a topic for discussion? It is claimed to have actually happened, and it provides a good topic for exploring the community's beliefs about personal rights.

If someone is stealing from me, I have every right (in my state, anyway) to prevent that theft, with "reasonable" violence if need be.

My state law specifically states that I have the right to defend myself, other people, and my property with a "reasonable" amount of force. And by damned, I would do exactly that. A punch in the nose is more than reasonable for a semester's worth of lecture notes.

If recent police action is any indication, then it would be "reasonable" for me to taze her and beat her with nightsticks as well! After all, standards are standards.

"What's the equation for the volume of a cylinder?""I don't know, but if I did need to know I know I could look it up in Google in under 10 seconds. Furthermore if I need to know the volume of a cylinder enough times that it'll be important to memorize the brain will do this thing called learn it from repetitive Google searches."

School should be a timed open book and open internet affair. You would stop learning retarded things (like da

I had a professor once try to do a similar thing. He demanded to keep the source code for anything we wrote while in class. Albeit he wasn't about to commit theft and assault. He also had this demand in writing so there was official documentation (not very smart for a professor.) A friend was taking the class too so we decided to license our code very, very restrictively; the polar opposites of GPL an BSD. After grades had been posted at the end of the semester, we went to student legal services with our issue. An actual lawyer heard our case, was absolutely incensed, and wrote a certified letter threatening monetary punishments. The professor decided to settle and immediately handed over all documentation, source code, and binaries back to the students. He even threatened to charge us with academic misconduct. The settlement he signed had a provision that he could not make any such accusations or face civil trial for breech of contract. The professor was given an administrative sanction which became a forced (four month sabbatical.)