good to be on the winning side again :D
great ball movement...
we managed to weather the storm...keep our composure and pull it out.
this wasn't the regular Jazz - but its still a good team and its great to finally beat a team that has won previously...
we need Quis to play on a consistent basis...
Tins is good when he is looking for his teammates
and its of course better when his teammates are actually able to make a shot...

Oneal07

11-17-2007, 09:31 PM

:) Yup

rexnom

11-17-2007, 09:32 PM

Ah yes...the reverse jinx works once again...

bellisimo

11-17-2007, 09:34 PM

putting the W aside - I'm just happy we finally managed to play some ball that we saw in the pre-season

bnd45

11-17-2007, 09:35 PM

When guys knock down their shots, Tinsley is more than willing to pass the ball. The love/hate for JT continues as "Good" Jamaal showed up big time tonight.

BIG WIN.

bellisimo

11-17-2007, 09:36 PM

once again - win by the trey - die by the trey...

hopefully we wont have the need to shoot 58% everynight to pull out a W...

rexnom

11-17-2007, 09:37 PM

When guys knock down their shots, Tinsley is more than willing to pass the ball. The love/hate for JT continues as "Good" Jamaal showed up big time tonight.

BIG WIN.
As long as people don't disappear, keep running, and keep taking good shots, I promise you that "Good Jamaal" will keep showing up.

LAPacer

11-17-2007, 09:38 PM

Good win. Makes being a Pacers fan more bearable. Marquis is going to be a key if we make the playoffs. They need to fix his knee.

OnlyPacersLeft

11-17-2007, 09:39 PM

yeah good win for this team. We have to take care of business at home vs the lakers and then play vs a very beatable new orleans team...I if think we can climb back to 500. before dec would be a HUGE momentum boost!

NorCal_Pacerfan

11-17-2007, 09:39 PM

Ahh sweet relief.

Was great to see the team play well for a whole game again. Hopefully we can build on this and beat the La La Kobes.

Unclebuck

11-17-2007, 09:40 PM

Wow, I had a weird night. Didn't quite make it to the game. My car's security system locked up and it wouldn't start - I just love new technology.

So I missed the whole first half and the fourth quarter.

From what I saw Tinsley and Mike played really well and when those two guys play well I think the Pacers win.

I'll post more later

Lord Helmet

11-17-2007, 09:41 PM

Good win.

Ball movemet has gotten a lot better lately, we need to keep it up, though.

Putnam

11-17-2007, 09:43 PM

Figure this:

Tonight the Pacers took the fewest field goal attempts (only 76) of any game so far this season.

And scored 117 points!

The Jumpshot Still Money

11-17-2007, 09:47 PM

= 0

Unclebuck

11-17-2007, 09:48 PM

One thing I noticed is Mike Dunleavy ran really hard and that makes the fast break and open court play so much better.

Hope Diener's injury isn't too serious

Unclebuck

11-17-2007, 09:53 PM

Something Jerry Sloan just said brought something to my mind. Sloan said the Pacers kept the Jazz on the outside the whole night forcing them to take outside shots.

That is what Pacers defense is designed to do.

Last night it didn't work out so well because the Raptors have so many great outside shooters. But the Jazz are an inside team without many good outside shooters.

We'll see if this trend continues - Pacers playing better against poor outside shooting teams

rexnom

11-17-2007, 09:56 PM

Something Jerry Sloan just said brought something to my mind. Sloan said the Pacers kept the Jazz on the outside the whole night forcing them to take outside shots.

That is what Pacers defense is designed to do.

Last night it didn't work out so well because the Raptors have so many great outside shooters. But the Jazz are an inside team without many good outside shooters.

We'll see if this trend continue - pacers playing better against poor outside shooting teams
Well then how do we play the better shooting teams? But what do we do if we're in the playoffs and play a team like Toronto? What about Boston? What if we get an 8 seed and Boston gets a 1 seed - do we just concede 30 from Pierce, Allen or both every night?

odeez

11-17-2007, 10:31 PM

Good win, much needed. It just feels so good to reverse the trend of blowing big leads. It didn't look too good when Utah scored like 10 straight points to start the 3rd, but the team came back and took control of the game mid third quarter. Shawne looked great tonight. Dun also looked good, scoring and moving off ball, and Granger did his thing. Tins played the way I wish he would every game, passing the ball first.

Question: Is JO still hurt? I know he got those cheap fouls with Collins flopping about in the first half. But I sure do want to see 19 million worth out of him. It looks to me like just doesn't fit with this team anymore with the way we play now.

OnlyPacersLeft

11-17-2007, 11:02 PM

I think JO isn't trying as hard cause he knows this team isn't going to win anything while he's here...might be time to move him :(

Isaac

11-18-2007, 12:05 AM

I think JO isn't trying as hard cause he knows this team isn't going to win anything while he's here...might be time to move him :(

I swear to god, if I see one more person suggest that JO isn't trying... :suicide:

Jamaal, Shawne, Dunleavy and Quis were all fantastic tonight. I was certain Utah would make a run in the 3rd, and they did. I'm actually glad they did because this team was able to see how to hold a lead- keep playing the way they did to get the lead! I know its a crazy concept, but we figured it out at least for tonight.

Shawne was really, really great. I can't stress that enough.

rexnom

11-18-2007, 12:39 AM

Shawne and Foster coming on for Murphy and Danny sealed the game. Fantastic energy substitution.

Btw, I LOVE Quis as backup PG. Works really well. It's huge to always have a creator on the floor.

aceace

11-18-2007, 01:23 AM

One thing I really like about JOB is he always has an answer as to what went wrong on a loss. It was obvious tonight that the corrections were made, no standing around, players were constantly attacking the basket on the run. I was blaming Jamal at times (my bad) It was obvious that when others were playing Jamal looked much better.

In the Toronto game we played pretty well they just were smoking hot from 3. I feel much better after beating a good team tonight. Bring on the Lakers.

dohman

11-18-2007, 02:00 AM

The great thing tonight was players were cutting. We were driving the ball and making the extra pass.

Moving around tonight allowed our shooters to get open and have open looks and not contested looks like we have been getting in the last few games.

As far as the JO comment. JO played a very good game. HE is more than just a offensive threat. Not only does he change the entire game when he is on the defensive side. But he does alot of the little things on offense like setting the picks that allow the drive and getting the ball down low and kicking it out when players collapse on him.

I would rather have JO play the way he is now then try to do to much and take away from the other guys that play better with jo being a good passer.

CableKC

11-18-2007, 02:14 AM

Well then how do we play the better shooting teams? But what do we do if we're in the playoffs and play a team like Toronto? What about Boston? What if we get an 8 seed and Boston gets a 1 seed - do we just concede 30 from Pierce, Allen or both every night?
Great.....I can see Kobe and Fisher burning us when we play them.

CableKC

11-18-2007, 02:21 AM

I don't know if JONeal likes it....but I like that he played more like a 3rd scoring option on the team.

Is it me...or do we seem to play better whenever JONeal doesn't shoot as much?

Admittedly....it was good that Dunleavy, Shawne and Marquis were hitting their shots and we were somehow rebounding better then the Jazz. There wasn't as much of a need to feed it to JONeal if the rest of the team was hititng their shots.

One thing that I noticed that was amazing was Tinsley not only dishing out 13 assists but turning it over ONLY once!!!!

Karmakillaz

11-18-2007, 02:24 AM

Why did Granger only play 26 minutes? Just because of the effectiveness of Shawne tonight? I hear everyone praising Dunleavy, Shawne and Marquis but Granger did shoot 60% tonight right?

OakMoses

11-18-2007, 08:32 AM

Why did Granger only play 26 minutes? Just because of the effectiveness of Shawne tonight? I hear everyone praising Dunleavy, Shawne and Marquis but Granger did shoot 60% tonight right?

I know plus minus numbers are a bit of a myth, but we won by 20 points and Granger and Murphy still had negative plus minus numbers. I missed the first quarter, but from what I saw, he was getting destroyed by Kirilenko. He couldn't do anything once he got the ball in his hands, and he wasn't cutting all that hard. Consequently, Shawne, who was cutting, got more minutes.

A great win. Now the voice in my head that says this team's not that bad doesn't sound so crazy.

Observations:

Tinsley was great. This is the second game in a row where he's played his best game of the year. He played exactly like a PG should. He looked for and found his open teamates, he created some open shots with his ball-handling, he knocked down good shots when he was left open.

JO took a backseat to the others, but that was exactly what he needed to do tonight. The Jazz have one of the best frontcourts in the NBA, and JO was a big reason that we were able to keep them out of the paint. JO also did a nice job of passing, looking for cutters, and not forcing his own shot.

David Harrison can score, but other than having 6 chances to foul guys while trying to block shots, he's pretty much useless.

Marquis Daniels is important to this team, just like he was last year. O'Brien seems to be picking the games where he plays Daniels. He played him against Arenas, sat him against Forderon, and played him against Deron Williams. If he's only going to play in one game of back-to-backs, he'll probably sit out against the Lakers so we can use him to guard Chris Paul on Wednesday.

Shawne and Dunleavy were great.

That's all I have for now.

Unclebuck

11-18-2007, 08:55 AM

O'Brien believes in the plus/minus stat. He has mentioned it several times in his post game press conferences and on his radio show.

BoomBaby33

11-18-2007, 09:57 AM

I thought the team really played well ALL 48 minutes. Denari mentioned on the telecast that we have led the first quarter in 8 of 10 games, and led at half time in 8 of 10 games. Its easy to see that we are not finishing games from that stat. And watching the team, it seems they come out of the locker room so lethargic every game. Even last night the Jazz came out with a 10-0 run to start the second half. But we stemmed the tide with a 20 point lead at half time this game.

UB - great take in the interior defense as a priority. It makes a lot of sense when you see great outside shooting teams like the raptors and nuggets come back from big deficits to beat us. Unfortunately, there are a lot of other great outside shooting teams in the nba. In theory, thats a great idea - make teams beat us from the outside. It just goes back to his offensive game plan - you live by the 3 and die by the 3. Makes me worry with Kobe and DFish coming to town. Plus watch out for VladRad in this game. He is a great outside shooter, much like Kleiza, Melo, Calderon, and Kapono.

I do have to admit that the Tins I saw last night is the Tins I want every night. 13 assists to 1 turnover, plus Quis backing him up looked great as well.

But the thing that really stood out to me was the hustle all 48 minutes last night. And that makes me proud to be a Pacer fan, as much as the win itself does.

Go Pacers!!!

Naptown_Seth

11-18-2007, 01:14 PM

+/- is as legit as FG%. For all the situational aspects you could say the same about FG% - who was guarding them, how were other players shooting, was the player being doubled because of teammates, were these 3pt shots, etc

I hate when people dismiss stats on the grounds of qualifiers and exceptions. The whole freaking game is a giant +/-, to me it makes it the stat based closest to the bottom line. Yes you have to account for situations, but who is dumb enough to ignore that blindly? No reasonable person puts any numbers up without acknowledging that they aren't the end-all, be-all. It's just part of a point, and far better than "IMO".

End stat defense rant (again) ;)

Tins now has 3 games in a row that he's played pretty well on offense, this being his best by far. I love his vertical game (baseline to baseline), he is really spacing that well and it's opening up opportunities for other guys to get inside or to go inside out. He's not just moving the ball vertically, he's also working pretty nicely without the ball too. His defense is his standard, but if he can keep the offense going like this I can certainly live with it.

I don't need Tins to be a great 3pt guy, but hitting the ridiculously open 3pt shot is critical for him. He took care of that against Utah and it had a big impact. I'd love to see him at least get to the Jax level on those "is anyone even guarding me" looks because he gets 3-4 per game at least...for now. ;)

Really I just need to summarize everyone else by saying great all-around effort. I didn't see one guy that didn't make a nice impact. This was the best movement (with and without the ball) I've seen from this team in years. They had a brilliant 3 man game with Danny/Troy/JO that lead to an easy Danny jumper that was my favorite play of the last few years. It was as sophisticated as anything Rick would come up with, multiple cuts and picks and passes among the 3 before the shot.

Some games this year they've shot their way into decent offense. This game was not that, this game it was the high quality offense that got them the high % looks and left them with the great scoring rate. This was an offensive effort that I felt like you could count on as long as the effort was repeated, rather than being tied to streaky shooting.

You want me to buy into JOB fixing the team, show me more of that caliber offensive movement. Maybe the team is just figuring out their roles with each other in this free flow system. I mean if the set plays were limited last night (and maybe they weren't) then the interaction between nearly every set of 5 was impressively intuitive. They seemed to read every opportunity.

Troy is painful on defense, he let Milsap abuse him badly driving off the low block (man, beat by 2 steps in only 4 steps). But the dude also cut backdoor for a brilliant Tinsley pass and then finished with a reverse dunk. Troy looked healthy and active and that was enough to help. He moved the ball very well and I was shocked to see his only bucket was the dunk, it felt like he scored more than that.

I noticed that Shawne was playing a ton of the 3rd over Danny. I assumed it was that Shawne had a hot hand and that he matched up against the Utah front line a little better. Both of these guys make mistakes still, though Shawne is much more raw right now. However I really have a good feeling about Shawne, more than Danny, and I think Danny is hitting Pippen-level (especially if he adds the handles). As these 2 keep learning and maturing you could really have a powerful tandem.

Dunleavy was moving very well at both ends which also helped things, nearly as much as Tinsley.

Marquis is some kind of illusionist or something. He hits shots and gets places with his dribble that he just has no business doing. Using him at PG is helping the team a ton I think, as long as they can keep him out there.

I know David had foul troubles but I was pleased that he kept his cool and kept working. If he can just keep that attitude toward it he may yet work his way into real PT. We saw in this game why you want his offense in the game, he's nearly unstoppable once he gets the ball down low. He is such a huge "if only" player.

JO looks fine to me. He got robbed on a "traveling" call that clearly wasn't even close, and then got fouled pretty hard a couple of times to start the 3rd with no call. That hurt his night a bit. But he still showed that he has some really nice inside moves too, and is the best help defender on the team by a large distance.

When Foster got that last second shot I have to say that I felt really good about it. He was in stride and inside the arc enough to be in what has become his range. Quite an addition to him game. You don't go to it, but like Tinsley on wide open 3s it's a shot you need to punish cheating defenses with. I would have been more surprised if he'd missed it.

Finally I will mention that I'll be bumping another thread due to a certain play that was named play of the game. I never thought I'd see it out of this group. My Grinch heart grew 10 sizes when I saw it in action.

Naptown_Seth

11-18-2007, 01:29 PM

I swear to god, if I see one more person suggest that JO isn't trying... :suicide:

Jamaal, Shawne, Dunleavy and Quis were all fantastic tonight. I was certain Utah would make a run in the 3rd, and they did. I'm actually glad they did because this team was able to see how to hold a lead- keep playing the way they did to get the lead! I know its a crazy concept, but we figured it out at least for tonight.

Shawne was really, really great. I can't stress that enough.
No s***. Good lord, it's not even close to being maybe right. First few sets of the game went to/through JO. The play I called one of the best I've seen from them in years featured tons of passing between he, Tins and Murph that ended up with an easy look for Troy. Granger ran a great give and go baseline ala Jackson off him that drew 2 FTAs.

Not only is JO putting in the effort (just look at the defense, like taking charges is something you do when you aren't trying), he's also having a big impact. When JO got into foul trouble and then David did to the Pacers hit one of their few ruts. QB and Denari agreed. If you are seeing this team play and not seeing how critical his low post threat is to maintaining offensive spacing integrity then I don't know what you are watching.

I'm sorry he's not going Jabbar or KG and dropping 25-12 and I realize that for his money you'd expect that. But that doesn't mean he's not a key guy. Heck, it's not like Garnett had a KG game the other night, and that was due to JO's defense on him.

edit - one other thing on JO, he lost several assists when the Jazz were forced to foul the guy he passed to. It doesn't go in the box score but it does have a big impact (hey, points AND foul created).

once again - win by the trey - die by the trey...

hopefully we wont have the need to shoot 58% everynight to pull out a W...
Maybe you didn't get to see the game, I don't know, but this was not a "3pt bailout" game. Quis hit 1 where he was 10 feet open and had literally seconds to spot up and shoot it, which is exactly why he did. Tinsley's 2 makes were the same. Dun had 1-2 that he easily could step into due to space. There was maybe 2-3 contested 3pt makes at most, and for that matter any contested FGAs at all.

The shooting in this game was driven specifically by the great player and ball movement. When you get wide open looks or layups at the rim you are going to score a lot. It was their effort to attack inside so effectively that left guys "Shaq is my teammate" open on the outside.

bellisimo

11-18-2007, 02:31 PM

Maybe you didn't get to see the game, I don't know, but this was not a "3pt bailout" game. Quis hit 1 where he was 10 feet open and had literally seconds to spot up and shoot it, which is exactly why he did. Tinsley's 2 makes were the same. Dun had 1-2 that he easily could step into due to space. There was maybe 2-3 contested 3pt makes at most, and for that matter any contested FGAs at all.

The shooting in this game was driven specifically by the great player and ball movement. When you get wide open looks or layups at the rim you are going to score a lot. It was their effort to attack inside so effectively that left guys "Shaq is my teammate" open on the outside.

I wasn't referring it as a bailout game - but moreso that when we shoot a good clip from downtown we are more than likely to win it.

As you've mentioned we had some good looks - but in the previous 6 games we also had several good looks where the players were just shooting bricks - something that they did not do last night :D

I'd have to see a few more +50% FG% games before I associate this on great ball movement instead of hot hands ;)

Hicks

11-18-2007, 02:52 PM

My own Solitary Reverie:

While I still don't believe in individual +/-, some stats I really wish we'd see added to the box score:

* Deflections
* Tips (as opposed to [occasionally but not always?] counting them as rebounds)
* uFG% (uncontested [pick a definition for this and stick to it all 48 minutes] field goal)
* cFG% (contested field goal)
* defensive uFG and cFG
* FAst ("fouled assists" for when it would have been a field goal attempt if not for the foul)

-

This "JO isn't enjoying it and isn't really trying" talk is utter bull****.

-

Last night was as close to 48 minutes of good movement (ball and player) that I've seen the Pacers play. This is much closer to what I saw and liked in the preseason. Just keep doing it!

-

I'm becoming infatuated with Shawne Williams. I just see a lot of offensive potential in this guy. The man is confident, he's showing aggression on the boards and on defense, and I hope will show in his offensive game later on. He looks like he has the makings of a very good shooter, he showed a floater in the lane, I've seen his pull-up jumper at mid-range, and he can get up and dunk better than Danny.

It perked me ears when I heard through Jim that apparently Dick Harter feels he's the second best defender on the team. If he proves Harter right, then the only big weakness/concern I have down the road is his passing. I only own one jersey (Granger). If he becomes consistent I think I'm going to make Williams my second.

-

Last night was a nice, big win against a good team. But I'm still firmly in "show me" mode with this group. If they start going on 6 game WINNING streaks, I'll start changing my tune, but in the meantime I see (big-picture) a team that needs to be blown up at the top (Tinsley/JO) that's still pretending it's heading somewhere that it's not. But if they can play like they did last night on offense and keep working on improving their D (which I think they can), I can at least enjoy some pretty basketball while I wait for this pig to be sent to Oscar Meyer.

Hicks

11-18-2007, 02:53 PM

Also, allow me to echo Seth about the shooting last night. Yes some of it was just making shots that can easily be missed, but a lot of it was the result of better movement and passing leading to wide open shots and/or shots in rhythm. That's much better than "merely kind of open" that we were getting before. The latter is enough for a great shooter on a good night, but not this team. We need the wide open looks, and if we work hard enough we'll get enough of them.

NuffSaid

11-18-2007, 03:19 PM

Shawne and Foster coming on for Murphy and Danny sealed the game. Fantastic energy substitution.

Btw, I LOVE Quis as backup PG. Works really well. It's huge to always have a creator on the floor.
And that's exactly what I've been preaching the last two games. My boyz kept coming out flat to start the 3Q. They needed an infusion of energy and defense. I wouldn't have necessarily thought Foster and Williams as the players to stim the tide, but they turned out to be the right choices to turn things around. Good move by JOB.

imawhat

11-18-2007, 06:05 PM

If he proves Harter right, then the only big weakness/concern I have down the road is his passing. I only own one jersey (Granger). If he becomes consistent I think I'm going to make Williams my second.

I think his dribble drive is more of a concern, but his halfcourt passing isn't great either. He has the ability to become a very good passer because of his height and long reach.

I really, really, really liked what I saw of Shawne last night. I stand by my claim that he may become the most well-rounded offensive weapon the Pacers have had in years (yes, including Reggie). His percentages are high, he's active, he's got size, speed, strength, and his shot might be the sweetest or second sweetest on the team.....And his offensive IQ is very high. I would like to see a small collection of his highlights from last night, just to see the variety of ways he made an impact.

I have to say though, what I saw at the very end of the game, imo, could have the most impact on the team. Jim put Shawne in the post and he was able to back down his defender, turn, and hit an easy hook shot. I am begging Jim to run that play much more frequently with Shawne and to run it with Granger as well. I think both players are very legitimate post threats, and as we saw last night, we need more low post scoring....especially on nights were our 3s aren't falling.

I wish we ran the triangle offense with these guys. Shawne with Danny, Jermaine. Now THAT would make Murphy valuable in the offense.

Unclebuck

11-18-2007, 06:12 PM

I'm going to say this now. Shawne Williams should be a better player than Granger in two years from now. Assuming both stay relatively healthy and both stay out of trouble and continue to work on their games, I just think Williams has more talent - he has more game and more potential.
This is in no way to put Granger down, but I just think Williams has a hiogher ceiling potential. I think Williams could and should average 20-25 pts per game at some point in his career

Great posts Mal. I agree deflections and contested (challenged) shots - both of those stats should be in every box score. I would love to see a stat for every game shooting % for contested vs uncontested shots. Also shooting % early in the shot clock vs late in the shot clock.

Every team's coaching staffs keep these stats - but I just wish they were official stats -0 because they are so important

MyFavMartin

11-18-2007, 09:26 PM

There was an article posted in another thread mentioning that JO isn't getting as much lift as he has in the past. Coming off knee surgery, he states that it's early in the season and that he has no doubt that he will return to last season's form.

I think that would help the Pacers against good outside teams as JO would be better at single coverage in the post.