Smith, Clifford

ORAL HISTORY OF CLIFFORD SMITH
Interviewed by Keith McDaniel
March 6, 2012
MR. MCDANIEL: This is Keith McDaniel, and today is March the 6th, 2012. Actually, it's Super Tuesday in the 2012 Presidential Primary, and I am here at the home of Mr. Clifford Smith, here in Oak Ridge. Mr. Smith, thank you for taking time to talk with us.
MR. SMITH: Thank you for having me.
MR. MCDANIEL: Why don't we start at the beginning? Why don't you tell me a little about where you were born and grew up and something about your family?
MR. SMITH: Well, I was born in Nubert Springs, over in Knoxville, outside on Brown Mountain, and that was back in 1928, during the Depression. When I was about two, we moved down to what's now called Fox Den over there. We lived in just a house that was there, but when I was about three or four years old, my dad - they built a new house. And the way they built it was they just towed in the sawmill. It was one of those portable ones, big ones, and they sawed down the trees. There were huge trees where the house was, and cut the trees up into lumber, and then built the house out of that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right? So, they just kind of brought in a portable sawmill then, didn't they? Now, that was out in the country then, wasn't it?
MR. SMITH: Oh, yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: It was way out in the country.
MR. SMITH: The only building you could see from our house, any building, was Union Presbyterian Church. It was there. And my great-grandmother lived up from that, not far, but you couldn't see their house.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, were you near what is now Highway 70, Kingston Pike area?
MR. SMITH: Yeah. We were off the Kingston Pike, I guess, a mile or so. The nice thing about them building the house there, my brother and I were left with a sawdust pile that we played in for about ten years [Laughs] or however long. Until we got past that age, but that was our playground.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, what did your father do?
MR. SMITH: My dad was a - he drove a truck. First, when he started, when he moved down there, he was going to go into the milk business. He delivered milk over to Lenoir City, but that didn't work out really too well. Times were hard. I remember my dad, he would collect. People would pay him in coins. And at night, he would sit there at the table and count the coins he got during the day, and sometimes there would be coins that were collectors in there, and he would feel bad, because people had to give those coins just to pay for their milk. Then, he got to the point where we had to use those coins to pay for our groceries. [Laughs] So, it was a hard time. But we didn't know it. I mean, we thought we were okay. So the -
MR. MCDANIEL: And there were what, you and a brother?
MR. SMITH: Me and a brother. And my dad drove the cream truck. After the milk business went under. He worked for Sugar Creek Creamery, and he would drive around to farmers' houses and they would save the cream during the week in a can. And then once a week or so, he would go by their house and pick up those cans and then haul them to Sugar Creek Creamery in Knoxville. And over there, they would weigh the cream and determine how big a percentage of it was fat of cream, and they would - Then, they'd get a check from Sugar Creek Creamery, and my dad, they called him the ‘Cream Man'. Almost everybody knew him.
MR. MCDANIEL: Really? The Cream Man, huh?
MR. SMITH: Because they just had one - They would save the cream, and he would take it for them.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, how long did he do that?
MR. SMITH: Well, he did that for, I don't know, up to about 1960 or something like that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Wow. He did that a long time, didn't he?
MR. SMITH: Yeah, but he was well-known around. The other day I was over doing a painting for a friend of mine, where their old home place was, and I went up to knock on the doors, trying to locate this place, and the woman said, "Oh." First, she wasn't too talky, and then I told her my dad was Harmon Smith. I said, "He used to be the Cream Man." "Oh, the Cream Man?" [Laughter] Of course, in those days, you didn't get much company, I guess. But he also used to come around this area here in Oak Ridge, and then pick up cream.
MR. MCDANIEL: So, where did you go to school? Tell me about that.
MR. SMITH: Well, I went to Farragut for the first eight and a half years, and Farragut in those days was a smaller school than it is now [Laughs]. Just two small classes each year, so you were more like brothers and sisters than you were like classmates. But, when I got in the ninth grade, Oak Ridge was responsible for me leaving there. They had started, already started buying land, and people there, a lot of the neighbors we had had to move from Norris, for Norris Dam. So my dad, he didn't know about that, so he said we were going to move. So, they were building the Fort Louden Dam at that time, and buying land for it, and Oak Ridge was coming the other way, and he thought - But he said, "So, we're going to move to Maryville," which was really a good thing for me, because I was able to go to Maryville College. I worked at the Aluminum Company when I was 16 years old, in the summer. [Laughs]
MR. MCDANIEL: So, how old were you when you moved to Maryville?
MR. SMITH: Well, let's see. I was in the 9th grade. I think I was about 15 years old.
MR. MCDANIEL: So, you were in 9th grade and you went to Maryville High School?
MR. SMITH: Everett High School. Everett, which is not there anymore, of course.
MR. MCDANIEL: So, you graduated from high school there, and you worked at the Alcoa plant.
MR. SMITH: During the summer. And I worked at a lot of other places, too. For me, I really liked living over there, because there were people around. I worked at the Gilbert's Drug Store and Restaurant washing dishes and all that for $0.10 an hour. But I really loved it, because I see all these young people, and when I was living at Fox Den, I didn't see anybody. [Laughs]
MR. MCDANIEL: Yeah, you were kind of out by yourself, out in the country, weren't you?
MR. SMITH: Yeah, that's true, because my brother and I were the only company we had.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure, no, I understand. And, being a teenager in a town like Maryville, during that time, I'm sure that was something.
MR. SMITH: It was. It was a fun time.
MR. MCDANIEL: So, you graduated from Everett High School and then you went to Maryville College. Is that right?
MR. SMITH: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, how did that come about? Was it just - Did you always know you wanted to go to college?
MR. SMITH: Well, I wanted, but I hadn't thought before that I would be able to afford to go, but Maryville had - You could work on campus, and a lot had it made, so it was pretty easy for you to pay, of course, you didn't pay much in those days. That was, I guess, the most important thing about it. I could work on campus during the school year.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, did you live there? Did you live at home?
MR. SMITH: Yeah, I lived at home.
MR. MCDANIEL: Did you? Which made it cheaper, I'm sure?
MR. SMITH: We lived in a place now called Bungalow Town in Maryville. Well, it was then, too. Close to where there's a Wal-Mart out there now.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, really? So what did you study?
MR. SMITH: Well, I started out and I had no idea what I was going to study. The person in front of me in line, as we were registering, said they were going to fake chemical engineering. And the registering person said, "Oh, that's great, you're going to do this." So, I thought hey, well, that's great, so I said, "Chemical engineering." [Laughter] So, I studied that for about a year or so, and mostly I liked the mathematics of it. I always liked math. But I knew - I was sure I was going to get drafted and I wouldn't finish. I was 1-A, and the Korean War was beginning to start.
MR. MCDANIEL: Yeah, so what year was this?
MR. SMITH: About '47.
MR. MCDANIEL: Yeah, late ‘40's, right, right.
MR. SMITH: And so the thing was that in those days, you just about had to go in, and I didn't apply for deferment or anything, but they kept giving me one because I was in college, and so, but the last I guess, my junior year, I thought, "Well, I know they're going to get me, so I might as well do something that's interesting." And I decided to major in art. I'd always done well in art. So, but I was able to go ahead and finish graduating with a degree in art [Laughs]. So, I had art and chemistry and mathematics all minors.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, did you ever get drafted?
MR. SMITH: Yeah, the day after I graduated, I got my draft notice.
MR. MCDANIEL: Did you? At least that worked out.
MR. SMITH: I didn't have to report for a month or two, but it was - And I had a hard time. I did that because they'd say, back in those days, they'd say, "Well what's your draft status?" And you'd say, "Well, I'm 1-A. And I've already got my call." They say, "Well, we can't use you." I couldn't even get a job as a delivery boy.
MR. MCDANIEL: I'm sure, not for months, so excuse me. So, you went into the service. Tell me a little bit about what you did and where you went.
MR. SMITH: Well, I went in. I was - All my time, I spent in the anti-aircraft artillery. I was in that. You get a choice where you went if you made different scores. Having graduated from college, most of the tests was pretty easy for me, so I did well, and I thought about the anti-aircraft as being one of those places where they had those big searchlights and you sit around in airports wearing a uniform. [Laughter] But I was in a self-propelled half-track outfit. I was lucky. They kept taking half of our outfit and sending them to Korea, but when it came my turn, I got in the half, that went to Germany. So, I spent most of my time in Germany.
MR. MCDANIEL: Did you? Now, were you married at this time, or…?
MR. SMITH: I got married before I went overseas. My wife and I would say we'd get married because we’d have all that money coming in, and a big _ lot. [Laughter] When I got home, and if something happened to me, she would have a lot of money [Laughs].
MR. MCDANIEL: Jackpot of money. Now, did you all meet in college? Or had you met?
MR. SMITH: No, we just met down - We had moved from when I told you about Bungalow Town. We had moved down to close to Friendsville, and right where we lived, the house my dad built down there is now called Allison's Catfish Farm. I don't know if you're familiar with that.
MR. MCDANIEL: No.
MR. SMITH: It's a restaurant. It's well-known over there. We had a big lake. And they've got the lake, and they raise the catfish over there and cook them, but my wife lived right close and she had, we had, a really great marriage until -
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, you went in the service, and how long were you there? Two or three years?
MR. SMITH: Two years of active duty is what you were in for, back in those days.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. And then you came home. So, tell me what happened when you got home.
MR. SMITH: Well, I was always kind of worried. My wife wrote me a letter every day I was in the Army, but she would keep sending me pictures, glamour shots she'd taken up in town, and she was really beautiful, but this didn't look like her to me. Kind of close - I'd say, "Send me the snapshots." [Laughs] But anyhow I thought, well, what if I don't recognize her? But when I got up to Fort Breckenridge in Kentucky to where I was discharged, she came to meet me and there were about 50 women there at the same time waiting to meet their soldiers. I was _ _ there were a lot of other guys there, too. But I didn't have any trouble spotting her at all [Laughs]. She was the most beautiful sight I'd ever seen. She was great.
MR. MCDANIEL: So, when you got discharged out the Army, you came back to this area?
MR. SMITH: I couldn't really find a job right away. I tried out here at Oak Ridge, and I thought I had one locked down, because they wanted somebody with a high school degree and mechanical training and some experience and was a veteran. And I was a veteran, of course. I was a sergeant by that time, and I was - For six months, I had been, before I became a sergeant, I was an artillery mechanic, so that sounded like mechanical, and I'd graduated from college, but they said I was overqualified. I think that - I took that to mean they just didn't want me and that was a nice way to tell me, but then so, I went back to graduate school, and I worked at that creamery that my dad had worked at. They gave me a job dumping cream cans out of the trucks and stuff.
MR. MCDANIEL: And where'd you go to graduate school? UT?
MR. SMITH: UT. And then, I was - One of my teachers suggested that if I wanted - that I should go out and start applying for jobs to get the experience of applying. So, I went to - I got the first - She had told me, I guess, about this, that there was an opening for an art teacher in Oak Ridge. At that time, Oak Ridge was the highest paid in the state, I think. Everybody wanted to go to Oak Ridge to teach.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, in the school system.
MR. SMITH: School system, right. So I came out and applied, and they told me, "Oh, my, we've got so many experienced people applied for that job and you don't have any experience." In the Army, I taught a lot of classes, after I got to be sergeant. Sergeants teach a lot of classes, and most of the guys didn't like to do that, and I kind of enjoyed it, so they let me do a lot of teaching. But anyhow, I applied, and they told me there was probably not any chance I’d be getting a job. But what happened was about two weeks after that, I got - they sent me a contract. I never quite figured that out, but I didn't want to argue with it [Laughs].
MR. MCDANIEL: You thought you better sign that before they realize they made their mistake.
MR. SMITH: Right. [Laughter]
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MR. SMITH: I was going to make $3,200.00 a year. Who wouldn't? [Laughter]
MR. MCDANIEL: And what year was this?
MR. SMITH: This is 1953. So I came out, and I was supposed to be teaching secondary education, which is what I was certified in, but they didn't have an opening in secondary education, but they had one at the elementary school up at Cedar Hill. So, I taught art to second grade through sixth grade up there, and it was really fun, but it was little kids. I remember one thing. Every day I'd go home and tell my wife about what happened. For example, I had them draw pictures of their house, and so they all did, so I was holding the pictures up, and I said now, "Oh, this is good and all but there's one thing missing out of these houses. (Nobody had people in their pictures)." And I was wondering, and I said, "So, does anybody know what's the most important thing about a house?" And one little girl said, "I know, I know, I know!" And I said, “What?” And she said, "Paying your rent." [Laughter] I'll never forget that one. There were dozens of them about similar to that.
MR. MCDANIEL: She was wise beyond her years, wasn't she?
MR. SMITH: She'd heard her parents talking, I guess. Then, about that time, they built the new High School. Not this one, but the new High School in about 1955, and so they moved it. Another thing, they split Robertsville and Jefferson up into two schools. Robertsville was the only junior high they had up until that time. So, I suddenly became - I was the Jefferson art teacher, and the other art teacher went to Robertsville.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, where was Jefferson at that time?
MR. SMITH: It was where the old High School had been, up on the hill, football field. Right.
MR. MCDANIEL: So, you went there after six or seven years of teaching elementary school to be the art teacher?
MR. SMITH: Only taught elementary two years and part of another year. But then I went down to Jefferson Junior High School and I taught there for six or seven years, and then, Oak Ridge Schools had this program called a Regional Science Experience Center. It was a federal program, so I went with that for about four, five years.
MR. MCDANIEL: And what was that?
MR. SMITH: It was just that they - We had teachers. We had really good teachers from everywhere around the area, and we would go to schools and take equipment to them and explain to them what the Lab was doing and what was going on, but also we'd show them new things in education and everything. I went into probably every school in East Tennessee, I think.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right? Now, was that your full time job? You didn't have to -
MR. SMITH: Full time job for about five years. And then we traveled a lot.
MR. MCDANIEL: And that was when? That was the mid 50's?
MR. SMITH: Yeah, later, later. I started in '53, so it was about '69, somewhere in there.
MR. MCDANIEL: Mid-sixties.
MR. SMITH: Also, during that time, I was the Jefferson eighth grade basketball coach. Got to see a lot of my players around now, still. [Laughter]
MR. MCDANIEL: They're probably all fat and bald, like me.
MR. SMITH: Well, some of them. Some look pretty good. Some look like they could use a little trimming.
MR. MCDANIEL: They could play a little basketball. How funny. So -
MR. SMITH: That was great, to coach basketball. Eighth grade is a good grade, because, you know, you’ve not got that much pressure to win, but still the boys are interested and willing to listen to you [Laughs].
MR. MCDANIEL: And they're also at that point where they're starting to develop some skills at that point.
MR. SMITH: That's right.
MR. MCDANIEL: I have an eighth grader right now, so yeah, sure do. He goes to Robertsville, but - Well, and so how many years did you coach?
MR. SMITH: Well, you know I coached about 20 years, I guess, but I coached - Started out, I coached the seventh grade. When I first started, it was just seventh and eighth grade at Jefferson, and I coached with Nick Orlando. Then, I coached with Gerald Walker and Buddy Pope. They were the ninth grade, coaches. But that was interesting, too.
MR. MCDANIEL: I bet it was. So let's kind of follow your career, and then I'm going to come back and ask you some questions. So after you did the program, that five year program, what happened?
MR. SMITH: I came back, and the deal was that I was supposed to get my math, or my job, back. I had been - But so somebody - They'd hired a math teacher in the interim, and so, since I had been in the super science program, going around telling people how to do it, they said, "Let me do that." [Laughs] So, I did that for about five years, and I taught eighth grade Elementary Science Study. It was just a new program and we had everything. They had the new - By that time, they'd built the new Junior High School.
MR. MCDANIEL: The new Jefferson? Right. The new Jefferson School.
MR. SMITH: Yeah. And I had the equipment, better equipment than back when I was taking science over at Maryville College [Laughs].
MR. MCDANIEL: Well, that's good. It was Oak Ridge. You should have good science.
MR. SMITH: That's right. It was great.
MR. MCDANIEL: And how long did you do that?
MR. SMITH: Well, I did that for about five years, and then - But what I always wanted to do, really, was get back to teaching math. I don't know. Maybe just because I hadn't - They used to let me, when I was teaching science, and when I was teaching art, if there was an extra math class, they would schedule me for it. So, I started teaching, and I stayed with that until I retired in 1986.
MR. MCDANIEL: And that was at Jefferson?
MR. SMITH: That was at Jefferson. And I really enjoyed it. Like, I taught geometry. I love geometry, because art and geometry go together. Math, together. [Laughs] You know?
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, sure, exactly. So how many years total were you in the Oak Ridge school system?
MR. SMITH: Well, let's see, if I was in there from '53 to '86, so that would be 33.
MR. MCDANIEL: 33 years, and then you just retired?
MR. SMITH: I got - No. I had started working at the Credit Union part time before I retired. I “retired” from the credit union a few years ago.
MR. MCDANIEL: Which credit union?
MR. SMITH: Oak Ridge Schools. And so -
MR. MCDANIEL: I didn't know Oak Ridge Schools had a credit union.
MR. SMITH: They don't now. They just merged with another credit union. About a month or so ago.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did they? Where was that?
MR. SMITH: It was in the school administration building, and all it had was just Oak Ridge employees, and just their families, so you wouldn't have any reason to hear about it much, but I did that, and of course, during the time, I also taught some adult education some. A lot of other little things go in. I used to do a lot of work for the Oak Ridger artwork, and I illustrated several books and things like that.
MR. MCDANIEL: So, you worked – So, when you left the teaching, you went to work at the Credit Union?
MR. SMITH: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay, and how many years did you do that?
MR. SMITH: Well, it was about - I was overlapping, because I was working there for a while before I retired, but it was about 25 years in all.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, wow, okay. Well, my goodness. But you're an artist, so you said, you've done things for the Oak Ridger and books. Tell me a little bit about some of that.
MR. SMITH: Well, I guess my biggest thing was - Well, When Grandma Was A Girl was a book. It was published by the Oak Ridger and the Clinton Courier. They were going to do something for the Children's Museum, so they wanted to print this book of history of Lake City. Don't know how those two newspapers got together, but they did, and I did the illustrations, and Dick Smyser was the editor of the Oak Ridger and Horace Wells was the editor of the Clinton Courier. I worked with them on that and everything. It was a lot of fun. I still have a copy of the books. It was - But I did a lot of work for the Oak Ridger, just like cartoons and things like that, especially during the World’s Fair. I've done a lot of news - When I was working with the Regional Science Experience Center, I spent a lot of time drawing and doing pictures.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right. Well, let's go back. Tell me. What was it like working in the Oak Ridge School System? Tell me. Because you were able to go out to other school systems, you said. I mean that was one of the things. What was so unique about Oak Ridge Schools? What were some of the, let's say, some of the advantages of it? And maybe some disadvantages of it?
MR. SMITH: Well, I think the advantage was that in those days, and I'm sure it's still the same, but I don't know about that, the kids were just great. And the parents were, too. They were interested and they were helpful so it was really - they made it kind of pleasant to work, you know. But we also had equipment - if we needed something, we could get it. For a long time, don't ask me the year, they changed over, but we were under the federal government. We could get most anything. But we always were able to get what we needed. It was - The main thing I liked about it, I think, was that, and the teachers that I worked with. Those teachers that I started out with, they were fantastic.
MR. MCDANIEL: Well, you know they were kind of left over from the early days of the beginning of the Oak Ridge School System, where they brought in highly qualified well-paid folks. So what was - Would there be a downside compared to some of their systems that you could think of?
MR. SMITH: Well, back in those days, the downside I guess was, for example, when I started teaching at Jefferson, teaching art. I had every student in school at the beginning there for one period, every week. So, that means that I had about 25 different classes that I taught, and then, of course, just the mechanics of keeping up with all the work when they weren't there, having it ready for the next time, and washing the brushes [Laughs]. It was really hard, but they found, gradually, that was just -
MR. MCDANIEL: Too much, right.
MR. SMITH: So we, after they switched around and I got to where I taught a ninth grade class straight through and all, it was better, a lot better. But I used to teach - I taught at Scarboro for one year. They didn't have an art teacher, so I went out two afternoons a week and I taught. I guess, my biggest problem was I was flexible, so that meant I could get anything that nobody else wanted. [Laughter]
MR. MCDANIEL: You were kind of like, "Yeah, I guess I'll do it because nobody else will."
MR. SMITH: I used to talk about how quickly things became a tradition. They said, "But you've always done this." [Laughs] You did it one year, you know? I did the school paper, too. That kind of thing.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, the - who are some - when you first started in the school system, can you think of folks who made an impression on you? Other teachers, administrators, maybe someone who mentored you.
MR. SMITH: Oh, gosh. It'd be hard to, without leaving out somebody, but everybody helped me. Mrs. Mount was a teacher, and then Ms. Wilson, and Johnny Tigue was a shop teacher. But they - you kind of caught me - names. But there were several - those were. There were a lot of good advisors, almost everybody would help me.
MR. MCDANIEL: And they were supportive.
MR. SMITH: Uh-huh.
MR. MCDANIEL: Excuse me.
MR. SMITH: Mr. McKeehan was the principal when I started, Rollin McKeehan, he was really a great guy. And then, Wallace Spray was the principal after him, and Robert Moss was - Robert Moss was a great - He was the principal, he was really good. He was up there. Oh, good.
MR. MCDANIEL: He's on my list. I recognize that name, Robert Moss.
MR. SMITH: Well, you'll enjoy talking to him. He's got a lot of stories.
MR. MCDANIEL: Good, good. The - and I guess teaching art. You taught other things, but art was one of the main things that you did. And I imagine Oak Ridge was a - I don't know what it would be like some other place, but I imagine Oak Ridge was always traditionally been very supportive of the arts. So how…
MR. SMITH: Oh, yeah, that's true. I did several things for the Art Center. I worked with them, some. And the parents were supportive of their kids taking art. I had some really talented kids, I mean some that are really - don't ask me to name one right off hand, but a lot of them that were really good and have really progressed all through their lives.
MR. MCDANIEL: Really? Well, I know Jefferson still has a very strong art program there. Jim Dodson, who’s been there a long time, he's a friend of mine.
MR. SMITH: Yeah, I know him well.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure, sure. Well, let's talk a little bit about your family, and let's talk some about where you lived in Oak Ridge. And, if you can remember all the places you lived, we'll try to go through them as much as possible. When you first moved to Oak Ridge, where did you live?
MR. SMITH: Well, we lived on Wade Lane, two bedroom apartment. And then, I taught at UT a couple summers, so I left. Like, in the spring, when school's out, we'd move over to UT to the veteran's housing project while I was teaching over there, and then we would come back in the fall to a different apartment. I guess we lived on Waddell Circle. Couple places there. Then, we got a house right over on Queen's Road.
MR. MCDANIEL: I don't know where that is. Where is that?
MR. SMITH: It's in Woodland.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh is it? Okay.
MR. SMITH: And you don't probably know it because that's the shortest street in Oak Ridge. There were two - I think just two addresses. It connects Pembroke and I'm not sure what the other one is now. But anyhow, that was two bedroom apartments, two bedroom houses, and we thought, "How are we ever fill this up with…" [Laughter] Of course, by that time, we had two little kids. Soon after moving to Woodland, Mark, my younger son, was born. And my older son, Steve, went on through school in Oak Ridge and went to UT, but he joined the Navy. He was injured in an accident in the Navy, and never really recovered from it. So he died a number of years ago. But my younger son, Mark, worked with me at the credit union for a long time, so that worked out real great, and he's now the controller of a credit union up in Bristol and married. But -
MR. MCDANIEL: So y'all lived a lot of different places.
MR. SMITH: Right. And my wife worked at Penney's, and she managed the card shop for several years, and most people remember that more than anything. Her name was Wanda Smith. She was - the card shop used to be in the Downtown Shopping Center, and she was the manager down there for a long time, and then she also worked at Miller's and other stores like that. She managed the waterbed shop over at Tri-County, too, for like a year or two, so she was always into something. But the other place - let me see. After we got the house in Woodland, when we decided we were going to move into this end of town - because if we stayed in the Woodland area my son was going to have to go to school in Robertsville while I was up here at Jefferson, and so we moved to - We rented in Alhambra, I guess, down here, and _ _, and from there, we thought we'd buy a house up at the end of Ashland Lane, the street we're on now, and Chilton's owned that, but they decided, after we lived there for a while, they didn't - we're renting to own, but they decided they didn't want to sell, so one day my wife called me, and said that she'd bought a house. She wasn't even working then. I said, "What?" [Laughs] "How did you do it?" She said, "Well, that's for you to figure out." And, but it was here where we are now that was convenient, because my son was starting Glenwood School, and he could cross the street and go right over there. It's real convenient.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, what year was that, when you got this house?
MR. SMITH: Let's see now, that would be about '67 or '68, something like that. And so we lived here for a good while until I was going to retire from teaching. So, we decided we'd sell the house, and we put it up for sale. But the same day, I think, we put it up for sale, K-25 shut down, or they announced it anyhow, so, there were houses all over Oak Ridge just for sale all of a sudden.
MR. MCDANIEL: This was the mid-80's then, so '85 or so? Something like that.
MR. SMITH: So for a while, we – so, we were going to move out, and we moved into the apartment, because we just left the house. We thought we had the house empty, and somebody could just move in, but it doesn't work that way I guess. But my older son, their house had been - They had storm damage over where they lived, so we said, "Well, you can just move in here, because we can't sell it anyhow." So we moved into an apartment. We told everyone we were on our second honeymoon, because we started a - [Laughter] And then we lived there a while and problems developed. And then we moved to another apartment over on Vienna. The apartment we lived in first were behind where Food City is now. Then, we moved to Vienna, and then we moved from there to Maple Lane, and I was working at the Credit Union by this time, so Maple Lane was close to Pine Valley School. I could just walk down, eat lunch, and then come back to the Credit Union. But then the fellow decided he wanted to sell that house, so we were renting it, and we moved to Orchard Lane, up on under the water tower. And then my mother got to where she was going to have to stay with us. We were going to have to keep her with us, and that was kind of small for that. So, we rented a place down on Fairview. I think I've left some houses out.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, that's all right. That's okay. [Laughs] You lived all over town.
MR. SMITH: By that time, my son decided they wanted to move up to somewhere up above here, and out of town. And so we said, "Well, okay, we'll just move back in the house." So, here we are. We stayed here from that time on. Deer Lodge is where he moved.
MR. MCDANIEL: Up in the country. And then you lost your wife when? In 2002?
MR. SMITH: 2003, yeah. And my wife, just - she was younger than I was. We had everything planned out for her to survive me, but it didn't work that way.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure, sure, sure, exactly. Now, how old are you now? So you were born in -
MR. SMITH: '28. I'm 83.
MR. MCDANIEL: 83, okay, all right.
MR. SMITH: Dr. Heald, the other day, we were talking, and I was telling him how all these charts that you have, when you - like they're saying once you go - how long it take you to pay something. They end at 73, you know? I said, "Since I'm 73". He didn't quite follow what I was saying. He said, "Hate to tell you, but you're 83." [Laughter]
MR. MCDANIEL: My goodness. So what - you lived all around Oak Ridge, you worked here practically your whole career here in Oak Ridge, what were you all involved in? You sounded very busy, obviously, but were you all involved in any civic groups or involved in church or involved in youth activities or things such as that?
MR. SMITH: Well, we were at the Art Center, with Bob and them, and we were active members. I'm less active now than I used to be, but I attended the First United Methodist Church. And then after my wife died, I went to the grief support group, so I've been to sort of the edge of, I guess, working with a lot of organizations. Like the Children's Museum, when they first started out, few things.
MR. MCDANIEL: You know I would imagine you were one of those people that people would call on, that they didn't - They knew you were an artist, and they said, "Hey, we need an artist. I bet we should call Clifford Smith." [Laughter]
MR. SMITH: Still do. I do the bulletins for the other retired teachers, I do the cover, and I do the cover for the high school group, things like that.
MR. MCDANIEL: That's going to be me one of these days. You're going to say, "We need a video, let's call Keith." They do it already, but I mean you know it's probably not going to stop [Laughs].
MR. SMITH: It will. It will, try it. It's hard for me to say no. I'm working on a painting now. I told you, I think. For an old home place of a friend of mine that works over at Granny's Attic. She was telling me how she'd like to have a picture of that. She had a picture of the __ place. I've got it started in there.
MR. MCDANIEL: So, you still paint and draw and stay active that way?
MR. SMITH: These are my paintings there. They're old ones, of course. And I've got some, a few others, but I've done a lot of paintings.
MR. MCDANIEL: Have you?
MR. SMITH: Another thing I do, a job I forgot about, the Knife Museum up in - the Knife Museum up in Sevierville? I've done all the artwork for that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MR. SMITH: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that the Smokey Mountain Knife Works, or whatever in the museum?
MR. SMITH: Yeah. Friend of mine, Pete Cohan, is the director of that, or was, I think he's retired now. We worked together a lot. We worked together at the Regional Science Experience Center. He started that. But up there at the Knife Museum, I don't know if you've been there or not, but there are pictures of knives and people carrying knives and all that kind of stuff, and drawings.
MR. MCDANIEL: And you did those?
MR. SMITH: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: What was it like living and working in Oak Ridge? You have a little bit of a different perspective, because you weren't a federal employee, as we think of people who work at the plants. What was that like, for you?
MR. SMITH: Well, I always - I never see a real disadvantage to it. I pretty well enjoyed everything. Of course, the break between me teaching and people that - parents and all like that worked at the Lab, and sometimes, I didn't quite understand their world, and they didn't understand mine [Laughs].
MR. MCDANIEL: Exactly, exactly.
MR. SMITH: But I always had good relations, I think, with people at the plant. They were always helpful, and they would help me, like when I was teaching science. I could get people out there to come in and talk to the kids, or show me something on the Geiger Counter if I didn't understand it.
MR. MCDANIEL: You needed help, sure.
MR. SMITH: You could always find help.
MR. MCDANIEL: I guess, when you were teaching science, this was the early stages of the nuclear age, so radioactivity was kind of new, as far as in the classroom. So, I'm sure you probably had an advantage being here in Oak Ridge with that information as well, too. Was there anything else that I've not asked you about that you want to talk about?
MR. SMITH: [Laughs] No.
MR. MCDANIEL: Here's your chance.
MR. SMITH: [Laughs] No, I think we covered just about everything. It was more than anybody would want to hear, I guess, but I do say that I think that Oak Ridge is a great place to live, and I'm always thankful that I got started here, back during the - I never really made the early days of it that people talk about, although I was right in the area when it happened. I don't have anything to complain about Oak Ridge.
MR. MCDANIEL: Let me - let's talk about that for a minute. Now, you were 15, 16, I guess, when the bomb was dropped, weren't you? Let's see. You're 16 or 17, weren't you?
MR. SMITH: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: What do you remember about that? Do you remember hearing about Oak Ridge?
MR. SMITH: The one thing I remember - of course, my dad was a hunter. He would go possum hunting and these guys would go with him that lived here and worked at Oak Ridge. They would talk about it some, but they didn't know what was going on. The ones we worked with, anyhow. But they would talk about - I remember they would say, "What are they doing out there?" Well, most people thought they were getting it ready for a bombing practice place. They said, "Oak Ridge? That land must be the same as in Germany." Of course, I was in Germany, in the Army, so that wasn't true. But that was kind of - that sounded kind of logical.
MR. MCDANIEL: People were just trying to guess what was going on. But people knew it was something to do with the military, with the war effort, I suppose.
MR. SMITH: The atom thing - I remember when I was senior, in chemistry class, at Everett, and Miss Dougherty was my teacher. She was a great science teacher. But, we were studying the atom, and she was talking about the energy that was in the atom, that would hold all that together, and said, "Some people think that's what they're working on out at Oak Ridge."
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MR. SMITH: And years later, I saw her one day, and I was telling her about her saying that. She said, "Yeah," and then said, "The FBI came to my house and said for me not to do anymore guessing about what was going on at Oak Ridge."
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right? Wow. My goodness.
MR. SMITH: How word got to them, I don't know, but she was just making …
MR. MCDANIEL: A comment, right. Exactly. Well, my goodness.
MR. SMITH: This has always been an interesting group of people. I guess one thing is many people here are from far off. As you see, it's not up until - actually, until I went in the Army, I didn't have any association with anybody that wasn't just local [Laughs].
MR. MCDANIEL: At least Tennessee folks. And I guess that kind of made your job interesting, as well as living here, is of course the different types of people and different cultures represented and things such as that.
MR. SMITH: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Did you ever feel, as an artist, did you ever feel stifled, or like you couldn't do what you wanted to do as far as teaching art?
MR. SMITH: No, I don't think so. I never - I did mostly when I started out, since it was a new school, brand new, and new program, brand new. I just about did what I wanted to do [Laughs]. So I don't - I had nobody that - They just told me to go, keep going, __ do. We did some things that I can't imagine teachers doing, like I know I had an art class, a ninth grade art class, and we put on a play, and we had a student in my class, smart girl, Joan Feldman, and Joan had written a play. So, we produced the play. We made the scenery, and we did this. We did the makeup and everything. An art class, you know? And it turned out real well. I thought that was an interesting kind of thing we could do and they - nobody say, "What are you doing?" [Laughs]. So the people were great. But I have a lot of memories. I can - I probably ought to write some of them down, I guess. [Laughs] As long as I can remember them.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, exactly. No, I understand. I understand. Well, all right Mr. Smith. I appreciate you taking time to talk to us, and sharing a little about yourself and your life and your time here in Oak Ridge.
MR. SMITH: Thank you.
[End of Interview]

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ORAL HISTORY OF CLIFFORD SMITH
Interviewed by Keith McDaniel
March 6, 2012
MR. MCDANIEL: This is Keith McDaniel, and today is March the 6th, 2012. Actually, it's Super Tuesday in the 2012 Presidential Primary, and I am here at the home of Mr. Clifford Smith, here in Oak Ridge. Mr. Smith, thank you for taking time to talk with us.
MR. SMITH: Thank you for having me.
MR. MCDANIEL: Why don't we start at the beginning? Why don't you tell me a little about where you were born and grew up and something about your family?
MR. SMITH: Well, I was born in Nubert Springs, over in Knoxville, outside on Brown Mountain, and that was back in 1928, during the Depression. When I was about two, we moved down to what's now called Fox Den over there. We lived in just a house that was there, but when I was about three or four years old, my dad - they built a new house. And the way they built it was they just towed in the sawmill. It was one of those portable ones, big ones, and they sawed down the trees. There were huge trees where the house was, and cut the trees up into lumber, and then built the house out of that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right? So, they just kind of brought in a portable sawmill then, didn't they? Now, that was out in the country then, wasn't it?
MR. SMITH: Oh, yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: It was way out in the country.
MR. SMITH: The only building you could see from our house, any building, was Union Presbyterian Church. It was there. And my great-grandmother lived up from that, not far, but you couldn't see their house.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, were you near what is now Highway 70, Kingston Pike area?
MR. SMITH: Yeah. We were off the Kingston Pike, I guess, a mile or so. The nice thing about them building the house there, my brother and I were left with a sawdust pile that we played in for about ten years [Laughs] or however long. Until we got past that age, but that was our playground.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, what did your father do?
MR. SMITH: My dad was a - he drove a truck. First, when he started, when he moved down there, he was going to go into the milk business. He delivered milk over to Lenoir City, but that didn't work out really too well. Times were hard. I remember my dad, he would collect. People would pay him in coins. And at night, he would sit there at the table and count the coins he got during the day, and sometimes there would be coins that were collectors in there, and he would feel bad, because people had to give those coins just to pay for their milk. Then, he got to the point where we had to use those coins to pay for our groceries. [Laughs] So, it was a hard time. But we didn't know it. I mean, we thought we were okay. So the -
MR. MCDANIEL: And there were what, you and a brother?
MR. SMITH: Me and a brother. And my dad drove the cream truck. After the milk business went under. He worked for Sugar Creek Creamery, and he would drive around to farmers' houses and they would save the cream during the week in a can. And then once a week or so, he would go by their house and pick up those cans and then haul them to Sugar Creek Creamery in Knoxville. And over there, they would weigh the cream and determine how big a percentage of it was fat of cream, and they would - Then, they'd get a check from Sugar Creek Creamery, and my dad, they called him the ‘Cream Man'. Almost everybody knew him.
MR. MCDANIEL: Really? The Cream Man, huh?
MR. SMITH: Because they just had one - They would save the cream, and he would take it for them.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, how long did he do that?
MR. SMITH: Well, he did that for, I don't know, up to about 1960 or something like that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Wow. He did that a long time, didn't he?
MR. SMITH: Yeah, but he was well-known around. The other day I was over doing a painting for a friend of mine, where their old home place was, and I went up to knock on the doors, trying to locate this place, and the woman said, "Oh." First, she wasn't too talky, and then I told her my dad was Harmon Smith. I said, "He used to be the Cream Man." "Oh, the Cream Man?" [Laughter] Of course, in those days, you didn't get much company, I guess. But he also used to come around this area here in Oak Ridge, and then pick up cream.
MR. MCDANIEL: So, where did you go to school? Tell me about that.
MR. SMITH: Well, I went to Farragut for the first eight and a half years, and Farragut in those days was a smaller school than it is now [Laughs]. Just two small classes each year, so you were more like brothers and sisters than you were like classmates. But, when I got in the ninth grade, Oak Ridge was responsible for me leaving there. They had started, already started buying land, and people there, a lot of the neighbors we had had to move from Norris, for Norris Dam. So my dad, he didn't know about that, so he said we were going to move. So, they were building the Fort Louden Dam at that time, and buying land for it, and Oak Ridge was coming the other way, and he thought - But he said, "So, we're going to move to Maryville," which was really a good thing for me, because I was able to go to Maryville College. I worked at the Aluminum Company when I was 16 years old, in the summer. [Laughs]
MR. MCDANIEL: So, how old were you when you moved to Maryville?
MR. SMITH: Well, let's see. I was in the 9th grade. I think I was about 15 years old.
MR. MCDANIEL: So, you were in 9th grade and you went to Maryville High School?
MR. SMITH: Everett High School. Everett, which is not there anymore, of course.
MR. MCDANIEL: So, you graduated from high school there, and you worked at the Alcoa plant.
MR. SMITH: During the summer. And I worked at a lot of other places, too. For me, I really liked living over there, because there were people around. I worked at the Gilbert's Drug Store and Restaurant washing dishes and all that for $0.10 an hour. But I really loved it, because I see all these young people, and when I was living at Fox Den, I didn't see anybody. [Laughs]
MR. MCDANIEL: Yeah, you were kind of out by yourself, out in the country, weren't you?
MR. SMITH: Yeah, that's true, because my brother and I were the only company we had.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure, no, I understand. And, being a teenager in a town like Maryville, during that time, I'm sure that was something.
MR. SMITH: It was. It was a fun time.
MR. MCDANIEL: So, you graduated from Everett High School and then you went to Maryville College. Is that right?
MR. SMITH: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, how did that come about? Was it just - Did you always know you wanted to go to college?
MR. SMITH: Well, I wanted, but I hadn't thought before that I would be able to afford to go, but Maryville had - You could work on campus, and a lot had it made, so it was pretty easy for you to pay, of course, you didn't pay much in those days. That was, I guess, the most important thing about it. I could work on campus during the school year.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, did you live there? Did you live at home?
MR. SMITH: Yeah, I lived at home.
MR. MCDANIEL: Did you? Which made it cheaper, I'm sure?
MR. SMITH: We lived in a place now called Bungalow Town in Maryville. Well, it was then, too. Close to where there's a Wal-Mart out there now.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, really? So what did you study?
MR. SMITH: Well, I started out and I had no idea what I was going to study. The person in front of me in line, as we were registering, said they were going to fake chemical engineering. And the registering person said, "Oh, that's great, you're going to do this." So, I thought hey, well, that's great, so I said, "Chemical engineering." [Laughter] So, I studied that for about a year or so, and mostly I liked the mathematics of it. I always liked math. But I knew - I was sure I was going to get drafted and I wouldn't finish. I was 1-A, and the Korean War was beginning to start.
MR. MCDANIEL: Yeah, so what year was this?
MR. SMITH: About '47.
MR. MCDANIEL: Yeah, late ‘40's, right, right.
MR. SMITH: And so the thing was that in those days, you just about had to go in, and I didn't apply for deferment or anything, but they kept giving me one because I was in college, and so, but the last I guess, my junior year, I thought, "Well, I know they're going to get me, so I might as well do something that's interesting." And I decided to major in art. I'd always done well in art. So, but I was able to go ahead and finish graduating with a degree in art [Laughs]. So, I had art and chemistry and mathematics all minors.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, did you ever get drafted?
MR. SMITH: Yeah, the day after I graduated, I got my draft notice.
MR. MCDANIEL: Did you? At least that worked out.
MR. SMITH: I didn't have to report for a month or two, but it was - And I had a hard time. I did that because they'd say, back in those days, they'd say, "Well what's your draft status?" And you'd say, "Well, I'm 1-A. And I've already got my call." They say, "Well, we can't use you." I couldn't even get a job as a delivery boy.
MR. MCDANIEL: I'm sure, not for months, so excuse me. So, you went into the service. Tell me a little bit about what you did and where you went.
MR. SMITH: Well, I went in. I was - All my time, I spent in the anti-aircraft artillery. I was in that. You get a choice where you went if you made different scores. Having graduated from college, most of the tests was pretty easy for me, so I did well, and I thought about the anti-aircraft as being one of those places where they had those big searchlights and you sit around in airports wearing a uniform. [Laughter] But I was in a self-propelled half-track outfit. I was lucky. They kept taking half of our outfit and sending them to Korea, but when it came my turn, I got in the half, that went to Germany. So, I spent most of my time in Germany.
MR. MCDANIEL: Did you? Now, were you married at this time, or…?
MR. SMITH: I got married before I went overseas. My wife and I would say we'd get married because we’d have all that money coming in, and a big _ lot. [Laughter] When I got home, and if something happened to me, she would have a lot of money [Laughs].
MR. MCDANIEL: Jackpot of money. Now, did you all meet in college? Or had you met?
MR. SMITH: No, we just met down - We had moved from when I told you about Bungalow Town. We had moved down to close to Friendsville, and right where we lived, the house my dad built down there is now called Allison's Catfish Farm. I don't know if you're familiar with that.
MR. MCDANIEL: No.
MR. SMITH: It's a restaurant. It's well-known over there. We had a big lake. And they've got the lake, and they raise the catfish over there and cook them, but my wife lived right close and she had, we had, a really great marriage until -
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, you went in the service, and how long were you there? Two or three years?
MR. SMITH: Two years of active duty is what you were in for, back in those days.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. And then you came home. So, tell me what happened when you got home.
MR. SMITH: Well, I was always kind of worried. My wife wrote me a letter every day I was in the Army, but she would keep sending me pictures, glamour shots she'd taken up in town, and she was really beautiful, but this didn't look like her to me. Kind of close - I'd say, "Send me the snapshots." [Laughs] But anyhow I thought, well, what if I don't recognize her? But when I got up to Fort Breckenridge in Kentucky to where I was discharged, she came to meet me and there were about 50 women there at the same time waiting to meet their soldiers. I was _ _ there were a lot of other guys there, too. But I didn't have any trouble spotting her at all [Laughs]. She was the most beautiful sight I'd ever seen. She was great.
MR. MCDANIEL: So, when you got discharged out the Army, you came back to this area?
MR. SMITH: I couldn't really find a job right away. I tried out here at Oak Ridge, and I thought I had one locked down, because they wanted somebody with a high school degree and mechanical training and some experience and was a veteran. And I was a veteran, of course. I was a sergeant by that time, and I was - For six months, I had been, before I became a sergeant, I was an artillery mechanic, so that sounded like mechanical, and I'd graduated from college, but they said I was overqualified. I think that - I took that to mean they just didn't want me and that was a nice way to tell me, but then so, I went back to graduate school, and I worked at that creamery that my dad had worked at. They gave me a job dumping cream cans out of the trucks and stuff.
MR. MCDANIEL: And where'd you go to graduate school? UT?
MR. SMITH: UT. And then, I was - One of my teachers suggested that if I wanted - that I should go out and start applying for jobs to get the experience of applying. So, I went to - I got the first - She had told me, I guess, about this, that there was an opening for an art teacher in Oak Ridge. At that time, Oak Ridge was the highest paid in the state, I think. Everybody wanted to go to Oak Ridge to teach.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, in the school system.
MR. SMITH: School system, right. So I came out and applied, and they told me, "Oh, my, we've got so many experienced people applied for that job and you don't have any experience." In the Army, I taught a lot of classes, after I got to be sergeant. Sergeants teach a lot of classes, and most of the guys didn't like to do that, and I kind of enjoyed it, so they let me do a lot of teaching. But anyhow, I applied, and they told me there was probably not any chance I’d be getting a job. But what happened was about two weeks after that, I got - they sent me a contract. I never quite figured that out, but I didn't want to argue with it [Laughs].
MR. MCDANIEL: You thought you better sign that before they realize they made their mistake.
MR. SMITH: Right. [Laughter]
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MR. SMITH: I was going to make $3,200.00 a year. Who wouldn't? [Laughter]
MR. MCDANIEL: And what year was this?
MR. SMITH: This is 1953. So I came out, and I was supposed to be teaching secondary education, which is what I was certified in, but they didn't have an opening in secondary education, but they had one at the elementary school up at Cedar Hill. So, I taught art to second grade through sixth grade up there, and it was really fun, but it was little kids. I remember one thing. Every day I'd go home and tell my wife about what happened. For example, I had them draw pictures of their house, and so they all did, so I was holding the pictures up, and I said now, "Oh, this is good and all but there's one thing missing out of these houses. (Nobody had people in their pictures)." And I was wondering, and I said, "So, does anybody know what's the most important thing about a house?" And one little girl said, "I know, I know, I know!" And I said, “What?” And she said, "Paying your rent." [Laughter] I'll never forget that one. There were dozens of them about similar to that.
MR. MCDANIEL: She was wise beyond her years, wasn't she?
MR. SMITH: She'd heard her parents talking, I guess. Then, about that time, they built the new High School. Not this one, but the new High School in about 1955, and so they moved it. Another thing, they split Robertsville and Jefferson up into two schools. Robertsville was the only junior high they had up until that time. So, I suddenly became - I was the Jefferson art teacher, and the other art teacher went to Robertsville.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, where was Jefferson at that time?
MR. SMITH: It was where the old High School had been, up on the hill, football field. Right.
MR. MCDANIEL: So, you went there after six or seven years of teaching elementary school to be the art teacher?
MR. SMITH: Only taught elementary two years and part of another year. But then I went down to Jefferson Junior High School and I taught there for six or seven years, and then, Oak Ridge Schools had this program called a Regional Science Experience Center. It was a federal program, so I went with that for about four, five years.
MR. MCDANIEL: And what was that?
MR. SMITH: It was just that they - We had teachers. We had really good teachers from everywhere around the area, and we would go to schools and take equipment to them and explain to them what the Lab was doing and what was going on, but also we'd show them new things in education and everything. I went into probably every school in East Tennessee, I think.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right? Now, was that your full time job? You didn't have to -
MR. SMITH: Full time job for about five years. And then we traveled a lot.
MR. MCDANIEL: And that was when? That was the mid 50's?
MR. SMITH: Yeah, later, later. I started in '53, so it was about '69, somewhere in there.
MR. MCDANIEL: Mid-sixties.
MR. SMITH: Also, during that time, I was the Jefferson eighth grade basketball coach. Got to see a lot of my players around now, still. [Laughter]
MR. MCDANIEL: They're probably all fat and bald, like me.
MR. SMITH: Well, some of them. Some look pretty good. Some look like they could use a little trimming.
MR. MCDANIEL: They could play a little basketball. How funny. So -
MR. SMITH: That was great, to coach basketball. Eighth grade is a good grade, because, you know, you’ve not got that much pressure to win, but still the boys are interested and willing to listen to you [Laughs].
MR. MCDANIEL: And they're also at that point where they're starting to develop some skills at that point.
MR. SMITH: That's right.
MR. MCDANIEL: I have an eighth grader right now, so yeah, sure do. He goes to Robertsville, but - Well, and so how many years did you coach?
MR. SMITH: Well, you know I coached about 20 years, I guess, but I coached - Started out, I coached the seventh grade. When I first started, it was just seventh and eighth grade at Jefferson, and I coached with Nick Orlando. Then, I coached with Gerald Walker and Buddy Pope. They were the ninth grade, coaches. But that was interesting, too.
MR. MCDANIEL: I bet it was. So let's kind of follow your career, and then I'm going to come back and ask you some questions. So after you did the program, that five year program, what happened?
MR. SMITH: I came back, and the deal was that I was supposed to get my math, or my job, back. I had been - But so somebody - They'd hired a math teacher in the interim, and so, since I had been in the super science program, going around telling people how to do it, they said, "Let me do that." [Laughs] So, I did that for about five years, and I taught eighth grade Elementary Science Study. It was just a new program and we had everything. They had the new - By that time, they'd built the new Junior High School.
MR. MCDANIEL: The new Jefferson? Right. The new Jefferson School.
MR. SMITH: Yeah. And I had the equipment, better equipment than back when I was taking science over at Maryville College [Laughs].
MR. MCDANIEL: Well, that's good. It was Oak Ridge. You should have good science.
MR. SMITH: That's right. It was great.
MR. MCDANIEL: And how long did you do that?
MR. SMITH: Well, I did that for about five years, and then - But what I always wanted to do, really, was get back to teaching math. I don't know. Maybe just because I hadn't - They used to let me, when I was teaching science, and when I was teaching art, if there was an extra math class, they would schedule me for it. So, I started teaching, and I stayed with that until I retired in 1986.
MR. MCDANIEL: And that was at Jefferson?
MR. SMITH: That was at Jefferson. And I really enjoyed it. Like, I taught geometry. I love geometry, because art and geometry go together. Math, together. [Laughs] You know?
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, sure, exactly. So how many years total were you in the Oak Ridge school system?
MR. SMITH: Well, let's see, if I was in there from '53 to '86, so that would be 33.
MR. MCDANIEL: 33 years, and then you just retired?
MR. SMITH: I got - No. I had started working at the Credit Union part time before I retired. I “retired” from the credit union a few years ago.
MR. MCDANIEL: Which credit union?
MR. SMITH: Oak Ridge Schools. And so -
MR. MCDANIEL: I didn't know Oak Ridge Schools had a credit union.
MR. SMITH: They don't now. They just merged with another credit union. About a month or so ago.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did they? Where was that?
MR. SMITH: It was in the school administration building, and all it had was just Oak Ridge employees, and just their families, so you wouldn't have any reason to hear about it much, but I did that, and of course, during the time, I also taught some adult education some. A lot of other little things go in. I used to do a lot of work for the Oak Ridger artwork, and I illustrated several books and things like that.
MR. MCDANIEL: So, you worked – So, when you left the teaching, you went to work at the Credit Union?
MR. SMITH: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay, and how many years did you do that?
MR. SMITH: Well, it was about - I was overlapping, because I was working there for a while before I retired, but it was about 25 years in all.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, wow, okay. Well, my goodness. But you're an artist, so you said, you've done things for the Oak Ridger and books. Tell me a little bit about some of that.
MR. SMITH: Well, I guess my biggest thing was - Well, When Grandma Was A Girl was a book. It was published by the Oak Ridger and the Clinton Courier. They were going to do something for the Children's Museum, so they wanted to print this book of history of Lake City. Don't know how those two newspapers got together, but they did, and I did the illustrations, and Dick Smyser was the editor of the Oak Ridger and Horace Wells was the editor of the Clinton Courier. I worked with them on that and everything. It was a lot of fun. I still have a copy of the books. It was - But I did a lot of work for the Oak Ridger, just like cartoons and things like that, especially during the World’s Fair. I've done a lot of news - When I was working with the Regional Science Experience Center, I spent a lot of time drawing and doing pictures.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right. Well, let's go back. Tell me. What was it like working in the Oak Ridge School System? Tell me. Because you were able to go out to other school systems, you said. I mean that was one of the things. What was so unique about Oak Ridge Schools? What were some of the, let's say, some of the advantages of it? And maybe some disadvantages of it?
MR. SMITH: Well, I think the advantage was that in those days, and I'm sure it's still the same, but I don't know about that, the kids were just great. And the parents were, too. They were interested and they were helpful so it was really - they made it kind of pleasant to work, you know. But we also had equipment - if we needed something, we could get it. For a long time, don't ask me the year, they changed over, but we were under the federal government. We could get most anything. But we always were able to get what we needed. It was - The main thing I liked about it, I think, was that, and the teachers that I worked with. Those teachers that I started out with, they were fantastic.
MR. MCDANIEL: Well, you know they were kind of left over from the early days of the beginning of the Oak Ridge School System, where they brought in highly qualified well-paid folks. So what was - Would there be a downside compared to some of their systems that you could think of?
MR. SMITH: Well, back in those days, the downside I guess was, for example, when I started teaching at Jefferson, teaching art. I had every student in school at the beginning there for one period, every week. So, that means that I had about 25 different classes that I taught, and then, of course, just the mechanics of keeping up with all the work when they weren't there, having it ready for the next time, and washing the brushes [Laughs]. It was really hard, but they found, gradually, that was just -
MR. MCDANIEL: Too much, right.
MR. SMITH: So we, after they switched around and I got to where I taught a ninth grade class straight through and all, it was better, a lot better. But I used to teach - I taught at Scarboro for one year. They didn't have an art teacher, so I went out two afternoons a week and I taught. I guess, my biggest problem was I was flexible, so that meant I could get anything that nobody else wanted. [Laughter]
MR. MCDANIEL: You were kind of like, "Yeah, I guess I'll do it because nobody else will."
MR. SMITH: I used to talk about how quickly things became a tradition. They said, "But you've always done this." [Laughs] You did it one year, you know? I did the school paper, too. That kind of thing.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, the - who are some - when you first started in the school system, can you think of folks who made an impression on you? Other teachers, administrators, maybe someone who mentored you.
MR. SMITH: Oh, gosh. It'd be hard to, without leaving out somebody, but everybody helped me. Mrs. Mount was a teacher, and then Ms. Wilson, and Johnny Tigue was a shop teacher. But they - you kind of caught me - names. But there were several - those were. There were a lot of good advisors, almost everybody would help me.
MR. MCDANIEL: And they were supportive.
MR. SMITH: Uh-huh.
MR. MCDANIEL: Excuse me.
MR. SMITH: Mr. McKeehan was the principal when I started, Rollin McKeehan, he was really a great guy. And then, Wallace Spray was the principal after him, and Robert Moss was - Robert Moss was a great - He was the principal, he was really good. He was up there. Oh, good.
MR. MCDANIEL: He's on my list. I recognize that name, Robert Moss.
MR. SMITH: Well, you'll enjoy talking to him. He's got a lot of stories.
MR. MCDANIEL: Good, good. The - and I guess teaching art. You taught other things, but art was one of the main things that you did. And I imagine Oak Ridge was a - I don't know what it would be like some other place, but I imagine Oak Ridge was always traditionally been very supportive of the arts. So how…
MR. SMITH: Oh, yeah, that's true. I did several things for the Art Center. I worked with them, some. And the parents were supportive of their kids taking art. I had some really talented kids, I mean some that are really - don't ask me to name one right off hand, but a lot of them that were really good and have really progressed all through their lives.
MR. MCDANIEL: Really? Well, I know Jefferson still has a very strong art program there. Jim Dodson, who’s been there a long time, he's a friend of mine.
MR. SMITH: Yeah, I know him well.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure, sure. Well, let's talk a little bit about your family, and let's talk some about where you lived in Oak Ridge. And, if you can remember all the places you lived, we'll try to go through them as much as possible. When you first moved to Oak Ridge, where did you live?
MR. SMITH: Well, we lived on Wade Lane, two bedroom apartment. And then, I taught at UT a couple summers, so I left. Like, in the spring, when school's out, we'd move over to UT to the veteran's housing project while I was teaching over there, and then we would come back in the fall to a different apartment. I guess we lived on Waddell Circle. Couple places there. Then, we got a house right over on Queen's Road.
MR. MCDANIEL: I don't know where that is. Where is that?
MR. SMITH: It's in Woodland.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh is it? Okay.
MR. SMITH: And you don't probably know it because that's the shortest street in Oak Ridge. There were two - I think just two addresses. It connects Pembroke and I'm not sure what the other one is now. But anyhow, that was two bedroom apartments, two bedroom houses, and we thought, "How are we ever fill this up with…" [Laughter] Of course, by that time, we had two little kids. Soon after moving to Woodland, Mark, my younger son, was born. And my older son, Steve, went on through school in Oak Ridge and went to UT, but he joined the Navy. He was injured in an accident in the Navy, and never really recovered from it. So he died a number of years ago. But my younger son, Mark, worked with me at the credit union for a long time, so that worked out real great, and he's now the controller of a credit union up in Bristol and married. But -
MR. MCDANIEL: So y'all lived a lot of different places.
MR. SMITH: Right. And my wife worked at Penney's, and she managed the card shop for several years, and most people remember that more than anything. Her name was Wanda Smith. She was - the card shop used to be in the Downtown Shopping Center, and she was the manager down there for a long time, and then she also worked at Miller's and other stores like that. She managed the waterbed shop over at Tri-County, too, for like a year or two, so she was always into something. But the other place - let me see. After we got the house in Woodland, when we decided we were going to move into this end of town - because if we stayed in the Woodland area my son was going to have to go to school in Robertsville while I was up here at Jefferson, and so we moved to - We rented in Alhambra, I guess, down here, and _ _, and from there, we thought we'd buy a house up at the end of Ashland Lane, the street we're on now, and Chilton's owned that, but they decided, after we lived there for a while, they didn't - we're renting to own, but they decided they didn't want to sell, so one day my wife called me, and said that she'd bought a house. She wasn't even working then. I said, "What?" [Laughs] "How did you do it?" She said, "Well, that's for you to figure out." And, but it was here where we are now that was convenient, because my son was starting Glenwood School, and he could cross the street and go right over there. It's real convenient.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, what year was that, when you got this house?
MR. SMITH: Let's see now, that would be about '67 or '68, something like that. And so we lived here for a good while until I was going to retire from teaching. So, we decided we'd sell the house, and we put it up for sale. But the same day, I think, we put it up for sale, K-25 shut down, or they announced it anyhow, so, there were houses all over Oak Ridge just for sale all of a sudden.
MR. MCDANIEL: This was the mid-80's then, so '85 or so? Something like that.
MR. SMITH: So for a while, we – so, we were going to move out, and we moved into the apartment, because we just left the house. We thought we had the house empty, and somebody could just move in, but it doesn't work that way I guess. But my older son, their house had been - They had storm damage over where they lived, so we said, "Well, you can just move in here, because we can't sell it anyhow." So we moved into an apartment. We told everyone we were on our second honeymoon, because we started a - [Laughter] And then we lived there a while and problems developed. And then we moved to another apartment over on Vienna. The apartment we lived in first were behind where Food City is now. Then, we moved to Vienna, and then we moved from there to Maple Lane, and I was working at the Credit Union by this time, so Maple Lane was close to Pine Valley School. I could just walk down, eat lunch, and then come back to the Credit Union. But then the fellow decided he wanted to sell that house, so we were renting it, and we moved to Orchard Lane, up on under the water tower. And then my mother got to where she was going to have to stay with us. We were going to have to keep her with us, and that was kind of small for that. So, we rented a place down on Fairview. I think I've left some houses out.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, that's all right. That's okay. [Laughs] You lived all over town.
MR. SMITH: By that time, my son decided they wanted to move up to somewhere up above here, and out of town. And so we said, "Well, okay, we'll just move back in the house." So, here we are. We stayed here from that time on. Deer Lodge is where he moved.
MR. MCDANIEL: Up in the country. And then you lost your wife when? In 2002?
MR. SMITH: 2003, yeah. And my wife, just - she was younger than I was. We had everything planned out for her to survive me, but it didn't work that way.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure, sure, sure, exactly. Now, how old are you now? So you were born in -
MR. SMITH: '28. I'm 83.
MR. MCDANIEL: 83, okay, all right.
MR. SMITH: Dr. Heald, the other day, we were talking, and I was telling him how all these charts that you have, when you - like they're saying once you go - how long it take you to pay something. They end at 73, you know? I said, "Since I'm 73". He didn't quite follow what I was saying. He said, "Hate to tell you, but you're 83." [Laughter]
MR. MCDANIEL: My goodness. So what - you lived all around Oak Ridge, you worked here practically your whole career here in Oak Ridge, what were you all involved in? You sounded very busy, obviously, but were you all involved in any civic groups or involved in church or involved in youth activities or things such as that?
MR. SMITH: Well, we were at the Art Center, with Bob and them, and we were active members. I'm less active now than I used to be, but I attended the First United Methodist Church. And then after my wife died, I went to the grief support group, so I've been to sort of the edge of, I guess, working with a lot of organizations. Like the Children's Museum, when they first started out, few things.
MR. MCDANIEL: You know I would imagine you were one of those people that people would call on, that they didn't - They knew you were an artist, and they said, "Hey, we need an artist. I bet we should call Clifford Smith." [Laughter]
MR. SMITH: Still do. I do the bulletins for the other retired teachers, I do the cover, and I do the cover for the high school group, things like that.
MR. MCDANIEL: That's going to be me one of these days. You're going to say, "We need a video, let's call Keith." They do it already, but I mean you know it's probably not going to stop [Laughs].
MR. SMITH: It will. It will, try it. It's hard for me to say no. I'm working on a painting now. I told you, I think. For an old home place of a friend of mine that works over at Granny's Attic. She was telling me how she'd like to have a picture of that. She had a picture of the __ place. I've got it started in there.
MR. MCDANIEL: So, you still paint and draw and stay active that way?
MR. SMITH: These are my paintings there. They're old ones, of course. And I've got some, a few others, but I've done a lot of paintings.
MR. MCDANIEL: Have you?
MR. SMITH: Another thing I do, a job I forgot about, the Knife Museum up in - the Knife Museum up in Sevierville? I've done all the artwork for that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MR. SMITH: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that the Smokey Mountain Knife Works, or whatever in the museum?
MR. SMITH: Yeah. Friend of mine, Pete Cohan, is the director of that, or was, I think he's retired now. We worked together a lot. We worked together at the Regional Science Experience Center. He started that. But up there at the Knife Museum, I don't know if you've been there or not, but there are pictures of knives and people carrying knives and all that kind of stuff, and drawings.
MR. MCDANIEL: And you did those?
MR. SMITH: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: What was it like living and working in Oak Ridge? You have a little bit of a different perspective, because you weren't a federal employee, as we think of people who work at the plants. What was that like, for you?
MR. SMITH: Well, I always - I never see a real disadvantage to it. I pretty well enjoyed everything. Of course, the break between me teaching and people that - parents and all like that worked at the Lab, and sometimes, I didn't quite understand their world, and they didn't understand mine [Laughs].
MR. MCDANIEL: Exactly, exactly.
MR. SMITH: But I always had good relations, I think, with people at the plant. They were always helpful, and they would help me, like when I was teaching science. I could get people out there to come in and talk to the kids, or show me something on the Geiger Counter if I didn't understand it.
MR. MCDANIEL: You needed help, sure.
MR. SMITH: You could always find help.
MR. MCDANIEL: I guess, when you were teaching science, this was the early stages of the nuclear age, so radioactivity was kind of new, as far as in the classroom. So, I'm sure you probably had an advantage being here in Oak Ridge with that information as well, too. Was there anything else that I've not asked you about that you want to talk about?
MR. SMITH: [Laughs] No.
MR. MCDANIEL: Here's your chance.
MR. SMITH: [Laughs] No, I think we covered just about everything. It was more than anybody would want to hear, I guess, but I do say that I think that Oak Ridge is a great place to live, and I'm always thankful that I got started here, back during the - I never really made the early days of it that people talk about, although I was right in the area when it happened. I don't have anything to complain about Oak Ridge.
MR. MCDANIEL: Let me - let's talk about that for a minute. Now, you were 15, 16, I guess, when the bomb was dropped, weren't you? Let's see. You're 16 or 17, weren't you?
MR. SMITH: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: What do you remember about that? Do you remember hearing about Oak Ridge?
MR. SMITH: The one thing I remember - of course, my dad was a hunter. He would go possum hunting and these guys would go with him that lived here and worked at Oak Ridge. They would talk about it some, but they didn't know what was going on. The ones we worked with, anyhow. But they would talk about - I remember they would say, "What are they doing out there?" Well, most people thought they were getting it ready for a bombing practice place. They said, "Oak Ridge? That land must be the same as in Germany." Of course, I was in Germany, in the Army, so that wasn't true. But that was kind of - that sounded kind of logical.
MR. MCDANIEL: People were just trying to guess what was going on. But people knew it was something to do with the military, with the war effort, I suppose.
MR. SMITH: The atom thing - I remember when I was senior, in chemistry class, at Everett, and Miss Dougherty was my teacher. She was a great science teacher. But, we were studying the atom, and she was talking about the energy that was in the atom, that would hold all that together, and said, "Some people think that's what they're working on out at Oak Ridge."
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MR. SMITH: And years later, I saw her one day, and I was telling her about her saying that. She said, "Yeah," and then said, "The FBI came to my house and said for me not to do anymore guessing about what was going on at Oak Ridge."
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right? Wow. My goodness.
MR. SMITH: How word got to them, I don't know, but she was just making …
MR. MCDANIEL: A comment, right. Exactly. Well, my goodness.
MR. SMITH: This has always been an interesting group of people. I guess one thing is many people here are from far off. As you see, it's not up until - actually, until I went in the Army, I didn't have any association with anybody that wasn't just local [Laughs].
MR. MCDANIEL: At least Tennessee folks. And I guess that kind of made your job interesting, as well as living here, is of course the different types of people and different cultures represented and things such as that.
MR. SMITH: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Did you ever feel, as an artist, did you ever feel stifled, or like you couldn't do what you wanted to do as far as teaching art?
MR. SMITH: No, I don't think so. I never - I did mostly when I started out, since it was a new school, brand new, and new program, brand new. I just about did what I wanted to do [Laughs]. So I don't - I had nobody that - They just told me to go, keep going, __ do. We did some things that I can't imagine teachers doing, like I know I had an art class, a ninth grade art class, and we put on a play, and we had a student in my class, smart girl, Joan Feldman, and Joan had written a play. So, we produced the play. We made the scenery, and we did this. We did the makeup and everything. An art class, you know? And it turned out real well. I thought that was an interesting kind of thing we could do and they - nobody say, "What are you doing?" [Laughs]. So the people were great. But I have a lot of memories. I can - I probably ought to write some of them down, I guess. [Laughs] As long as I can remember them.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, exactly. No, I understand. I understand. Well, all right Mr. Smith. I appreciate you taking time to talk to us, and sharing a little about yourself and your life and your time here in Oak Ridge.
MR. SMITH: Thank you.
[End of Interview]