visalemc wrote:"Majority"? Majority. That's all I hear is "most of the monks" or "majority of them". In the practical sense, it might as well be none. Here "majority" is meaningless because if this supposed majority exists, why has it allowed this minority represent them in such an unskillful manner? Why has this been allowed to exist for so long? This "most" is also responsible. As I've stated, wisdom is the main factor. How is the the wisdom of the Buddhas consistent with the intolerance and mistreatment of another because of sex or race? It's obvious that these senior monks lost face because they couldn't control one of their own. I say , deal with it. The Bhikkuni ordination is the essential issue here. If this "pure" Thai tradition can't separate, can't distinguish the twigs and leaves from the heartwood, it will die off through irrelevance. Let's not forget folks that Buddhism died off in the very country of its birth, how much more possible is it for this to occur in another?

I always find it funny when people talk about this small group of well-practiced monks as though they represent Thailand. There are Bhikkhunis all over Thailand, sir. One of my students just ordained as a Bhikkhuni and is now in Wat Rampoeng in Chiang Mai, I think. There's three Bhikkhuni monasteries in Chiang Main alone. Wat Pa Nanachat is not Thai Buddhism. They just happen to be a small group that has gained International acclaim, and rightly so. They are still a small minority and what the Wat Nong Pa Bong sangha says is not really indicative of what the rest of the country is doing. Heck, what the Sangharaja says is not really indicative of what the rest of the country is doing.

Thanks for this info Bhante

I'll make a trade:
aging for the Ageless,
burning for the Unbound:
the highest peace,
the unexcelled rest
from the yoke.

Most of this discussion presents a picture of some Buddhist version of the highly intense politics in the Catholic church, where scripture can be used to justify self-assertion and vindictiveness. Almost no one seems concerned for the well-being and future of the women involved or other women who might be involved more deeply with Buddhism. "We have our laws, we have our procedures, we have our traditions." What rubbish if they are all used to grind down women not to help them. Compassion has vanished.

--Allan Adasiak
(And look: I am not hiding behind some pseudonym. That is my real name.)

Dennis Sheppard, President of BSWA, referred to fallout from the Bhikkhuni ordination in his report to the Annual General Meeting on 12th March 2011. A short video, with text, is available on YouTube... http://www.youtube.com/user/BuddhistSoc ... RAGjvj4xJA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

In my mind, this speaker exemplifies much is what is of concern regarding the cult-like Ajahn Brahm tradition. It is reminiscent of the stories of Lutherism, when after converting the unruly masses to his bubble-gum Christianity, Luther's hordes invaded Rome, sacking the Vatican & raping the nuns.

It seems Mr Sheppard is speaking from a blind obedience or allegience to Ajahn Brahm, seemingly with Ajahn Brahm's consent. Mr Sheppard has made a number of allegations, including labelling the WPP monks in general as possessing "anger" and "ill-will". Further, Mr Sheppard exalts his people, as possessing metta & good-will. Mr Sheppard has exalt oneself & disparaged another, plus spoken unverified allegations. Then, for some bizarre reason, Mr Sheppard seeks to make concord with WPP, including invoking the name of Ajahn Chah, who did not support female ordination.

It also seems Mr Sheppard is speaking from a blind ignorance in relation to the Thai culture & monastic institution. As shared recently in a video, the Bhikkhu Yuttadhammo skilfully expressed the views of a senior Thai monk, who said the Thai monastic system is already "heavily burdened" and under much pressure. Unlike Mr Sheppard, with some exposure to the Thai monastic system, we may see it fulfils many social roles apart from solely supporting monks who are devoted to the meditation path. Each year, vast numnbers of Thai men will ordain for once in a lifetime three months as a monk. Many boys & men from poor social classes will ordain, merely for the purpose of receiving an education & hopefully a university degree. Many men will enter the monastery to overcome drug addictions or due to financial hardship.

In my mind, Mr Sheppard was not the appropriate person to give such a speech, displaying much cultural ignorance. A typical Aussie who probably knows little about Buddhism, apart from what Ajahn Brahm has spoken. And as I said, a wonderful example of the loyal layfollower or "soldier".

Myself, I wonder why they cannot simply separate. Ajahn Brahm is not publically teaching in the manner of Ajahn Chan and the Forest Tradition, anyway.

As for Ajahn Brahm, he probably looks upon it all with a sense of detachment amusement.

I know that this message is a bit like printing "this page intentionally left blank" on the blank side of a piece of paper, but I'd like to say that I have made a decision to speak skillfully and use my time efficiently for what is important by not posting this thread. No disrespect meant to anyone.

In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

BrownRice (Element) wrote:In my mind, this speaker exemplifies much is what is of concern regarding the cult-like Ajahn Brahm tradition. It is reminiscent of the stories of Lutherism, when after converting the unruly masses to his bubble-gum Christianity, Luther's hordes invaded Rome, sacking the Vatican & raping the nuns.

"Raping the nuns"? Come on...are you honestly going to compare supporting bhikkhuni ordination to "raping nuns"?!?!...that is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard!

Please stop this divisive speech, it is such a terrible thing to see.

Metta,

Guy

Four types of letting go:

1) Giving; expecting nothing back in return
2) Throwing things away
3) Contentment; wanting to be here, not wanting to be anywhere else
4) "Teflon Mind"; having a mind which doesn't accumulate things

Aloka Vihara, originally intended for Amaravati's Siladaras in the USA, just announced that their Siladharas are taking bhikkhuni ordination and the constitution of the society will be amended to accomodate bhikkhunis....
I can just imagine the consternation all this activity in the colonies must be creating back in the home country..

pilgrim wrote:Aloka Vihara, originally intended for Amaravati's Siladaras in the USA, just announced that their Siladharas are taking bhikkhuni ordination and the constitution of the society will be amended to accomodate bhikkhunis....
I can just imagine the consternation all this activity in the colonies must be creating back in the home country..

What consternation?
this was anounced months ago, shortly the calafornia ordinations happened.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.John Stuart Mill

it's really nice to hear that the upcoming ordination of the Siladaras as Bhikkhunis in California will not have consternation as a result in England! Good news. And right from the source, right?
all the best for you!

Kaktus wrote:Can someone please help me understanding the differences between

- siladharas
- bhikkhunis
- dasasilamatas
- nun

Searching around one and the same label is used in different contexts. A definition of all these labels out of one source would help me a lot to understand the differences between them.

Thank you.

Hi Kaktus

This article will help clarify the differences:

Q: "Why the different name? Or is it a title? What do these Pali words "bhikkhuni" and "siladhara" mean anyway?"

Bhikkhuni

"Bhikkhuni" is the feminine form of the word "bhikkhu". Bhikkhu literally means an almsman, bhikkhuni an almswoman. The Bhikkhu and Bhikkhuni Sangha are the fully-ordained men and women of the Buddhist monastic community established by the Buddha in his lifetime. It is a tradition more than 2,500 years old that has continued to this day, first flourishing in India, then in South, Southeast and East Asia, and now in the West. It is unclear when the Bhikkhuni Sangha died out previously in Southeast Asia, perhaps as recently as the 19th century. It has never died out in East Asia, and is currently undergoing a revival in South Asia and now Southeast Asia as well, along with its contemporary development in the West.

Other kinds of Theravada Buddhist nuns

With the more recent or ancient disappearance of the bhikkhunis' lineage of fully ordained women in South and Southeast Asian Buddhism, other forms of non-ordained or partially ordained monastic life for women appeared and evolved. The white-robed 8-precept maechees of Thailand, donchees and the pink-robed silashin of Burma all keep the 8-uposatha precepts and are classed as "lay nuns" or "religious laywomen" by the male Asian Bhikkhu Sangha. The practice of the uposatha observance of "monastic retreat" for laypeople keeping 8 precepts and wearing white was developed from the Buddha's time. With the lack of further ordination opportunities, women have undertaken and developed the uposatha-sila form for longer periods of time, sometimes for their entire lives.

In recent years, to further provide for women's religious needs and aspirations in monastic life, new forms of women's monastic discipline have evolved in South and Southeast Asia, including: Sri Lanka's light yellow-robed 10-precept nuns or Dasa-Silamatas, Thailand and Vietnam's 10-precept grey- and dark brown-robed Silavati nuns, Burma's dark brown-robed 10-precept Silashin nuns. Although none of these nuns have official status in the institution of the Monastic Sangha, the 10-precept discipline is considered a higher or deeper form of renunciation than that of the 8-precept nuns. The 10 precepts are the same as for Buddhist novices, although 10-precept nuns are generally not accepted as having the inclusive status of novices (whether male or female) within the Sangha.

Siladhara

When Western men first began to arrive in Thailand to train with great Thai masters of the forest tradition such as Ajahn Chah, the only form of monasticism apparently available for women there was of the white-robed 8-precept maechees, although there were very occassional reports and sightings of solitary brown-robed or even gold-robed nuns (aka female monks). When Ajahn Sumedho founded the monastic community of Amaravati in England at Ajahn Chah's direction, the first women aspiring to monastic life were also ordained with 8-precepts, wearing white robes similar to the Thai maechees. Finding this form of disicpline inadequate after some time, at the nuns behest, Ajahn Sumedho ordained the first four women as dark-brown-robed novices or samaneris. In later years, a further form and level of ordination was developed, in consultation with the Vinaya, the novice nuns and with a Thai-trained monk teacher in the Amaravati community, Ajahn Sucitto. While still officially lay renunciates in the eyes of the Thai Sangha heirarchy, and thus not as controversial as bhikkhuni ordination, this form of discipline included a training and discipline in more than 100 precepts, and became known as the siladhara ordination, and the community of nuns in England following this discipline, the Siladhara Order.