Through the chatting with David Yong and me,We can see that even in Baptism(e.g same denomination), the teachings are not the same. We can see that some Baptist Church do accept part of the Charistmatic and Pentecostal activites, but some oppose all activities in Charistmatic and Pentecostal. In Protestant, not only different denominations teach different things and have different faith. There are even various teachings and faith within the same denominations.

Moreover,different famous scholars often innovates different theologies , new 'truth', and new teachings,etc which is unknown to all Protestant denomination and Protestant history . Some Protestant Christians accept their newly innovated theologies , while some highly opposite.

All these can show clearly that what Protestant Christians speak here can only represent a very minor part of Protestantism. What protestant Christians speak here cannot even represent their own denominations.

And you think that there are no differing opinions within the catholic communions? The Orthodox Church has this concept of "theologoumena", or pious opinions. Look it up.

Just to cite an example: Some Orthodox Christians believe in aerial toll houses. Others don't.

Through the chatting with David Yong and me,We can see that even in Baptism(e.g same denomination), the teachings are not the same. We can see that some Baptist Church do accept part of the Charistmatic and Pentecostal activites, but some oppose all activities in Charistmatic and Pentecostal. In Protestant, not only different denominations teach different things and have different faith. There are even various teachings and faith within the same denominations.

Moreover,different famous scholars often innovates different theologies , new 'truth', and new teachings,etc which is unknown to all Protestant denomination and Protestant history . Some Protestant Christians accept their newly innovated theologies , while some highly opposite.

All these can show clearly that what Protestant Christians speak here can only represent a very minor part of Protestantism. What protestant Christians speak here cannot even represent their own denominations.

And you think that there are no differing opinions within the catholic communions? The Orthodox Church has this concept of "theologoumena", or pious opinions. Look it up.

Just to cite an example: Some Orthodox Christians believe in aerial toll houses. Others don't.

No.Most if the things I mentioned here about Pentecostal and Charismatic are not simply the opinion of Pentecostal and Charismatic.They are the FAITH of Pentecostal and Charismatic.They are also important or even main Doctrines of Pentecostal and Charismatic.

I remember that one Famous scholar, who is called Joyce Meyer, forms a new Gospel and new 'penal substitution". She teaches that Jesus descended into hell and tortured by the fires in hell, so the believers do not need to suffer the hell punishment. In her book, She even said that if men do not believe this fact,(e.g Jesus descended into hell and tortured by the fires in hell), they cannot be saved.

I'm no expert on Joyce Meyer but that sems hard to believe. Do you have a source? I thought she was an alter call type of salvation preacher? Basically an accept Jesus in your heart and be saved messege is what I get out of her anytime I've seen or heard her.

I think, Walter, that you are missing the point. If I understand you aright, your argument is that the Orthodox Faith is uniform, and therefore true, and that Protestantism has a range of beliefs and cannot therefore be a true 'branch' Christianity. No-one would disagree with you that there is a range of beliefs within Protestantism. But I think you are missing (perhaps deliberately?) two matters:

1) Protestants are agreed on the essentials, and there is a lot of interdenominational co-operation among Evangelicals: it matters not a whit to me (to use your examples) whether a minister I work with speaks in tongues in his devotions or not, whether he was appointed to a pastorate with or without the laying on of hands, and many other varieties of belief, if his Evangelical faith is pukka.

2) There are a lot of people who retain a Protestant name of one sort or another, whilst abandoning even its core beliefs. They are, of course, dishonest and heretical, and ought to be driven out: nonetheless, to use these phoneys as your typical "Protestants" (or Baptists, Pentecostals, Evangelicals or whatever) in order to argue against the real thing is not a convincing line of reasoning.

« Last Edit: November 28, 2012, 04:45:30 AM by David Young »

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"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15

Some Protestant scholars , like David Pawson, Paul washer ,etc openly criticize the doctrine of 'Sinner's prayer' and ' Once saved, always saved' ; Some Scholars like John piper and NT wright develop a new way of 'Justification'; Some peachers form 'new Gospel', like Joyce Meyer, NT Wright; Some Pentecostal and Charismatic Church teach that a man cannot save without speaking in tongue;Quite a lot Church in Protestant believe in Calvinsim, while some believe in Arminianism, and some believe in wesleyan ,etc. The essential is not the same in Protestant

The main problem is that there is many denominations in Protestant. Different Church in the same Protestant denomination also have various faith and doctrines .Moreover, different individual Protestant scholars, preachers, ministries keep innovating various 'New Truth', ' New Faith' and 'New Doctrines' according to their private interpretation of Scriptures .

So, which (Individual) Church's faith and doctrines are correct and from God in Protestant ? Which 'New Truth', 'New Faith' and 'New Doctrines' are truely from God?

Some Protestant scholars... openly criticize the doctrine of 'Sinner's prayer'

Not because their soteriology is different, but because they observe that "the sinner's prayer" can be prayed without enough prior explanation for the sinner to understand and therefore mean what he is really saying.

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and ' Once saved, always saved'

The difference between Arminius and Calvin is of long standing. Which side of the fence one comes down on (or whether one sits on it) does not define whether or not one is Protestant.

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Some Scholars like John piper and NT wright develop a new way of 'Justification'

I have read John Piper and seen nothing in his doctrine of justification which gainsays anything in standard Reformed teaching. I doubt that N T Wright would view his ideas on justification as being Evangelical. He is superb in the resurrection.

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Some Pentecostal and Charismatic Church teach that a man cannot save without speaking in tongue;

I have been hearing this for decades, but do not recall a single Pentecostal book or preacher teaching it. Can you point us to a Pentecostal source for this?

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Quite a lot Church in Protestant believe in Calvinsim, while some believe in Arminianism, and some believe in wesleyan ,etc. The essential is not the same i

Wesleyans are Arminian. One's view of predestination is not of the essence of the Faith.

But in doing so they wander away from Protestant Evangelical teaching. You cannot use them to refute us. Some people have wandered away from Orthodoxy, but it neither proves nor disproves the Orthodox Faith itself.

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"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15

Not because their soteriology is different, but because they observe that "the sinner's prayer" can be prayed without enough prior explanation for the sinner to understand and therefore mean what he is really saying.

No, Paul Washer directly DECLARE WAR and AGAINST the doctrine and practice of Sinner's prayer. He teaches that even you practices sinner's pray with heart once, it cannot guarantee you have life-long salvation. He directly condemn this practice as Heresy and put many people into hell.

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The difference between Arminius and Calvin is of long standing. Which side of the fence one comes down on (or whether one sits on it) does not define whether or not one is Protestant.

But their teaching is contradict . Arminianism do not support justified by faith and once saved , always saved. SO,among these two different faith in Protestant. Which one is the truth?

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I have been hearing this for decades, but do not recall a single Pentecostal book or preacher teaching it. Can you point us to a Pentecostal source for this?

They teach that speak in tongue is prayers which is driven by the holy spirit insides us. If you can pray with tongues, it is a sign that holy spirit insides you. If you cannot speak in tongue, it proves that Holy spirit is not inside you and so you are not saved.

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Wesleyans are Arminian. One's view of predestination is not of the essence of the Faith.

Wesleyan teach "second work of grace" . With this grace,the believer would live in a holy life. Without this grace, a beliver in not justified. It is not mentioned in Arminianism. And it is totally contradict with Calvinsim.So , again, which Protestant teaching is the truth?

But in doing so they wander away from Protestant Evangelical teaching. You cannot use them to refute us. Some people have wandered away from Orthodoxy, but it neither proves nor disproves the Orthodox Faith itself.

Under Sola Scriptural, how can you know the'New Truth', ' New Faith' and 'New Doctrines' are wandering away and heresy but you are correct? THeir teaching also supported by the bible/ their (own)interpretation of bible.THey are also supported by MANY Protestant Christians and Protestant Church.

Most 'New Truth ' and 'New Doctrine' in Charismatic and Pentecostal considered as wandering away from Protestant Evangelical teaching. But now, more and more Christian convert to and support Charismatic and Pentecostal. How can you know the'New Truth', ' New Faith' and 'New Doctrines' must wander away from Protestant Evangelical teaching?

Again, the same question.The main problem is that there is many denominations in Protestant. Different Church in the same Protestant denomination also have various faith and doctrines .Moreover, different individual Protestant scholars, preachers, ministries keep innovating various 'New Truth', ' New Faith' and 'New Doctrines' according to their private interpretation of Scriptures .

So, which (Individual) Church's faith and doctrines are correct and from God in Protestant ? Which 'New Truth', 'New Faith' and 'New Doctrines' are truely from God?

For seven years I was a part of the United Pentecostal Church which holds that speaking in tongues is the initial evidence of the baptism in the Holy Spirit and that this experience is essential to salvation.

Also , some Pentecostal teach that when one can speak in tongue, it means they are baptisted in Holy Spirit and filled by Holy Spirit. Thus, they are saved. IF one cannot speak in tongue,he/ she has not been baptisted by Holy spirit and filled by Holy spirit. SO, they cannot saved.

Most 'New Truth ' and 'New Doctrine' in Charismatic and Pentecostal considered as wandering away from Protestant Evangelical teaching. But now, more and more Christian convert to and support Charismatic and Pentecostal. How can you know the'New Truth', ' New Faith' and 'New Doctrines' must wander away from Protestant Evangelical teaching?

Correction:Most 'New Truth ' and 'New Doctrine' in Charismatic and Pentecostal considered as wandering away from Protestant Evangelical teaching( at the beginning of movement.) . But now, more and more Christian convert to .....

I have been hearing this for decades, but do not recall a single Pentecostal book or preacher teaching it. Can you point us to a Pentecostal source for this?

The Baptism of the Holy Ghost - Promise and Command, by David Bernard speaks about this in some detail and how it is necessary for salvation. Of course being Oneness Pentecostals, the issue of them being really Christian comes into play. He's one of the leaders of the UPCI, with over 2,000,000 members.

PP

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"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Some Protestant scholars , like David Pawson, Paul washer ,etc openly criticize the doctrine of 'Sinner's prayer' and ' Once saved, always saved' ; Some Scholars like John piper and NT wright develop a new way of 'Justification'; Some peachers form 'new Gospel', like Joyce Meyer, NT Wright; Some Pentecostal and Charismatic Church teach that a man cannot save without speaking in tongue;Quite a lot Church in Protestant believe in Calvinsim, while some believe in Arminianism, and some believe in wesleyan ,etc. The essential is not the same in Protestant

The main problem is that there is many denominations in Protestant. Different Church in the same Protestant denomination also have various faith and doctrines .Moreover, different individual Protestant scholars, preachers, ministries keep innovating various 'New Truth', ' New Faith' and 'New Doctrines' according to their private interpretation of Scriptures .

So, which (Individual) Church's faith and doctrines are correct and from God in Protestant ? Which 'New Truth', 'New Faith' and 'New Doctrines' are truely from God?

Please don't group together NT Wright with Joyce Meyer and John Piper.

Some Protestant scholars , like David Pawson, Paul washer ,etc openly criticize the doctrine of 'Sinner's prayer' and ' Once saved, always saved' ; Some Scholars like John piper and NT wright develop a new way of 'Justification'; Some peachers form 'new Gospel', like Joyce Meyer, NT Wright; Some Pentecostal and Charismatic Church teach that a man cannot save without speaking in tongue;Quite a lot Church in Protestant believe in Calvinsim, while some believe in Arminianism, and some believe in wesleyan ,etc. The essential is not the same in Protestant

The main problem is that there is many denominations in Protestant. Different Church in the same Protestant denomination also have various faith and doctrines .Moreover, different individual Protestant scholars, preachers, ministries keep innovating various 'New Truth', ' New Faith' and 'New Doctrines' according to their private interpretation of Scriptures .

So, which (Individual) Church's faith and doctrines are correct and from God in Protestant ? Which 'New Truth', 'New Faith' and 'New Doctrines' are truely from God?

Please don't group together NT Wright with Joyce Meyer and John Piper.

I did not group them together. And this is not my key and main point.

My key and main questoin/point is that there is many denominations in Protestant. Different Church in the same Protestant denomination also have various faith and doctrines .Moreover, different individual Protestant scholars, preachers, ministries keep innovating various 'New Truth', ' New Faith' and 'New Doctrines' according to their private interpretation of Scriptures .

So, which (Individual) Church's faith and doctrines are correct and from God in Protestant ? Which 'New Truth', 'New Faith' and 'New Doctrines' are truely from God?

Some Protestant scholars , like David Pawson, Paul washer ,etc openly criticize the doctrine of 'Sinner's prayer' and ' Once saved, always saved' ; Some Scholars like John piper and NT wright develop a new way of 'Justification'; Some peachers form 'new Gospel', like Joyce Meyer, NT Wright; Some Pentecostal and Charismatic Church teach that a man cannot save without speaking in tongue;Quite a lot Church in Protestant believe in Calvinsim, while some believe in Arminianism, and some believe in wesleyan ,etc. The essential is not the same in Protestant

The main problem is that there is many denominations in Protestant. Different Church in the same Protestant denomination also have various faith and doctrines .Moreover, different individual Protestant scholars, preachers, ministries keep innovating various 'New Truth', ' New Faith' and 'New Doctrines' according to their private interpretation of Scriptures .

So, which (Individual) Church's faith and doctrines are correct and from God in Protestant ? Which 'New Truth', 'New Faith' and 'New Doctrines' are truely from God?

Please don't group together NT Wright with Joyce Meyer and John Piper.

I did not group them together. And this is not my key and main point.

My key and main questoin/point is that there is many denominations in Protestant. Different Church in the same Protestant denomination also have various faith and doctrines .Moreover, different individual Protestant scholars, preachers, ministries keep innovating various 'New Truth', ' New Faith' and 'New Doctrines' according to their private interpretation of Scriptures .

So, which (Individual) Church's faith and doctrines are correct and from God in Protestant ? Which 'New Truth', 'New Faith' and 'New Doctrines' are truely from God?

Or they are just all WRONG? Nothing is from God in Protestant?

There are different movements within Protestantism with different ideas, but there are also different ideas within Orthodoxy.

Some Protestant scholars , like David Pawson, Paul washer ,etc openly criticize the doctrine of 'Sinner's prayer' and ' Once saved, always saved' ; Some Scholars like John piper and NT wright develop a new way of 'Justification'; Some peachers form 'new Gospel', like Joyce Meyer, NT Wright; Some Pentecostal and Charismatic Church teach that a man cannot save without speaking in tongue;Quite a lot Church in Protestant believe in Calvinsim, while some believe in Arminianism, and some believe in wesleyan ,etc. The essential is not the same in Protestant

The main problem is that there is many denominations in Protestant. Different Church in the same Protestant denomination also have various faith and doctrines .Moreover, different individual Protestant scholars, preachers, ministries keep innovating various 'New Truth', ' New Faith' and 'New Doctrines' according to their private interpretation of Scriptures .

So, which (Individual) Church's faith and doctrines are correct and from God in Protestant ? Which 'New Truth', 'New Faith' and 'New Doctrines' are truely from God?

Please don't group together NT Wright with Joyce Meyer and John Piper.

I did not group them together. And this is not my key and main point.

My key and main questoin/point is that there is many denominations in Protestant. Different Church in the same Protestant denomination also have various faith and doctrines .Moreover, different individual Protestant scholars, preachers, ministries keep innovating various 'New Truth', ' New Faith' and 'New Doctrines' according to their private interpretation of Scriptures .

So, which (Individual) Church's faith and doctrines are correct and from God in Protestant ? Which 'New Truth', 'New Faith' and 'New Doctrines' are truely from God?UOr they are just all WRONG? Nothing is from God in Protestant?

There are different movements within Protestantism with different ideas, but there are also different ideas within Orthodoxy.

The main problem is that the Church in protestant do not have consistence on the essential/ Faith/ Ddoctrine.Just take "Justification' as example.Some Protestant Church teach that men can be justified simply by 'sinner's prayer', while some declare war and against 'sinner's prayer '; Some denominations teach that we have to speak in tongue in order to be justification, while some opposite this doctrine. Some teach that men have to believe Jesus was tortured by demons in hell and finish atonement in hell, otherwise , men cannot saved. Some teach that men need to have 'second work of grace ' in order to have holiness life .Without this Second work of grace and a holiness life, men cannot save,etc

The Church in Protestant does not have consistence on their faith and doctrine,not SIMPLY have different opinion or ideas.

In my opinion Protestants believe that they are saved, but just that fact doesn`t make their “saints”. In other words, it doesn`t make them sinless. Kingdom of Heaven is one of the most important goals for every Christian, it`s a difficult labor on Christ`s field, which consist of: read and study Bible, prayers, fasting, obtaining virtues (meekness, humility, chastity, etc.), provide almsgiving, help to others in every. I this Protestants do above mentioned tasks also.

In my opinion Protestants believe that they are saved, but just that fact doesn`t make their “saints”. In other words, it doesn`t make them sinless. Kingdom of Heaven is one of the most important goals for every Christian, it`s a difficult labor on Christ`s field, which consist of: read and study Bible, prayers, fasting, obtaining virtues (meekness, humility, chastity, etc.), provide almsgiving, help to others in every. I this Protestants do above mentioned tasks also.

Yesteday, I have just told some of my Protestant friends that a Christian should not only believe in Jesus in our salvation. We should fast, pray, worship , love others,keep repenting and confessing, keep God's commendants, etc. We have to work out a holiness life, build a perfect relationship with God and have communion with God.

Then, my Protestant friends answer me that it is impossible for a man to work out a holiness life, build a perfect relationship with God and have communion with God in this life.

To protestant , Sinless and having communion with God in this life are impossible.

In my opinion Protestants believe that they are saved, but just that fact doesn`t make their “saints”. In other words, it doesn`t make them sinless. Kingdom of Heaven is one of the most important goals for every Christian, it`s a difficult labor on Christ`s field, which consist of: read and study Bible, prayers, fasting, obtaining virtues (meekness, humility, chastity, etc.), provide almsgiving, help to others in every. I this Protestants do above mentioned tasks also.

Yesteday, I have just told some of my Protestant friends that a Christian should not only believe in Jesus in our salvation. We should fast, pray, worship , love others,keep repenting and confessing, keep God's commendants, etc. We have to work out a holiness life, build a perfect relationship with God and have communion with God.

Then, my Protestant friends answer me that it is impossible for a man to work out a holiness life, build a perfect relationship with God and have communion with God in this life.

To protestant , Sinless and having communion with God in this life are impossible.

No, to your Protestant friends, living a sinless life in communion with God in this life is impossible. Please do not judge all Protestants by your experience of your particular friends. Many Protestants do believe that living a sinless life is possible by the power of the Holy Spirit.

In my opinion Protestants believe that they are saved, but just that fact doesn`t make their “saints”. In other words, it doesn`t make them sinless. Kingdom of Heaven is one of the most important goals for every Christian, it`s a difficult labor on Christ`s field, which consist of: read and study Bible, prayers, fasting, obtaining virtues (meekness, humility, chastity, etc.), provide almsgiving, help to others in every. I this Protestants do above mentioned tasks also.

Yesteday, I have just told some of my Protestant friends that a Christian should not only believe in Jesus in our salvation. We should fast, pray, worship , love others,keep repenting and confessing, keep God's commendants, etc. We have to work out a holiness life, build a perfect relationship with God and have communion with God.

Then, my Protestant friends answer me that it is impossible for a man to work out a holiness life, build a perfect relationship with God and have communion with God in this life.

To protestant , Sinless and having communion with God in this life are impossible.

No, to your Protestant friends, living a sinless life in communion with God in this life is impossible. Please do not judge all Protestants by your experience of your particular friends. Many Protestants do believe that living a sinless life is possible by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Many Protestants do believe that living a sinless life is possible by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Some even believe it to be impossible for them to sin.

As what I know ,the (Protestant) Church which believe in Wesylan have the teaching of 'entire sanctification' , 'Christian perfection' .And some Pentecostal and Charismatic church believe that after they are baptised in Holy spirit, have the gift of 'speak in tongue' and keep practicing it, the power of Holy Spirit will then cover them and they would no longer be able to sin.

In my opinion Protestants believe that they are saved, but just that fact doesn`t make their “saints”. In other words, it doesn`t make them sinless. Kingdom of Heaven is one of the most important goals for every Christian, it`s a difficult labor on Christ`s field, which consist of: read and study Bible, prayers, fasting, obtaining virtues (meekness, humility, chastity, etc.), provide almsgiving, help to others in every. I this Protestants do above mentioned tasks also.

Yesteday, I have just told some of my Protestant friends that a Christian should not only believe in Jesus in our salvation. We should fast, pray, worship , love others,keep repenting and confessing, keep God's commendants, etc. We have to work out a holiness life, build a perfect relationship with God and have communion with God.

Then, my Protestant friends answer me that it is impossible for a man to work out a holiness life, build a perfect relationship with God and have communion with God in this life.

To protestant , Sinless and having communion with God in this life are impossible.

No, to your Protestant friends, living a sinless life in communion with God in this life is impossible. Please do not judge all Protestants by your experience of your particular friends. Many Protestants do believe that living a sinless life is possible by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Many Protestants do believe that living a sinless life is possible by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Some even believe it to be impossible for them to sin.

As what I know ,the (Protestant) Church which believe in Wesylan have the teaching of 'entire sanctification' , 'Christian perfection' .And some Pentecostal and Charismatic church believe that after they are baptised in Holy spirit, have the gift of 'speak in tongue' and keep practicing it, the power of Holy Spirit will then cover them and they would no longer be able to sin.

Technically, the Wesleyan teaching on entire sanctification, as I understand it from the days of my youth in the Church of the Nazarene, is this: This "second work of grace" makes one capable of not sinning; it does not make one not capable of sinning.

(In fact, I don't believe that Wesley ever taught that entire sanctification is a work of grace that can be experienced in one moment as the Church of the Nazarene teaches. It seems to me that Wesley thought of entire sanctification as more of a lifelong process very much akin to the Orthodox doctrine of theosis.)

Sanctification he described in 1790 as the "grand depositum which God has lodged with the people called `Methodists'." Wesley taught that sanctification was obtainable after justification by faith, between justification and death. He did not contend for "sinless perfection"; rather, he contended that a Christian could be made "perfect in love". (Wesley studied Eastern Orthodoxy and particularly the doctrine of Theosis). This love would mean, first of all, that a believer's motives, rather than being self-centred, would be guided by the deep desire to please God. One would be able to keep from committing what Wesley called, "sin rightly so-called." By this he meant a conscious or intentional breach of God's will or laws. A person could still be able to sin, but intentional or wilful sin could be avoided.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wesley

John wesley did have some studies on the teachings of eastern Orthodoxy. He like the Orthodoxy doctrine of Theosis very much.