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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Hey Donald, not sure I may get this right, but I'll comment...

There may be 10,000 variables, but for the most part, there are some pretty predictable things about the dynamics of fights. There are only so many positions and things that people can do and I think we can keep these dynamics at a manageable level.

The catch is that predictable fight dynamic takes place within a decision cycle that we need to consider. Where we are in that process matters much more than it is given credit for.

This is what is disturbing to many about that Knock Out Game. The victim never fully appreciates the decision cycle or participates in it to any degree that provides him feedback until it is too late.

The knock out game is on the extreme end of the decision cycle...we hope that we can have more information or knowledge than that in an encounter and we can begin to respond appropriately.

As we move closer to MORE or FULL knowledge...we can make more informed choices and actions. At that point, we don't need to account for 10,000 variables, only a small few that we have learned/conditioned ourselves to respond to. Hopefully in a more subconscious way if we have formed good instincts and habits from our training.

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:

Karl Arant wrote:

How bad do you want to win? If all you want is martial efficacy that's super easy:

Always box a wrestler and always wrestle a boxer. In other words don't play their game. If you try to out grapple a grappler, without being one yourself, you're probably going to loose. As previously stated, most BJJ guys are generally not the greatest strikers, so having a good 1-2 cross and left hook in your tool box can be a life saver. Don't believe me? Try and hold you own with a decent amateur boxer. He/She will hold you at bay all day and work you over at will with nothing but a straight jab and good foot work. Bruce Lee emphasized this idea with the power lead.
Also, NEVER go to the ground with any one. BJJ practitioner, or not, the ground is a bad place to be, especially when he pulls that knife out of his pocket you didn't see, or his friends come out of hiding and start kicking out in the head while he holds you down. So don't even train for it, or you will do it in real life and it will backfire. As in nearly all tactical situations, the high ground (e.g. standing versus grappling) is best. For further proof consult the Isreali Self Defense and US military tactics, which strongly discourage going to ground at all costs.
As far as stymieing a BJJ practitioner in particular, you'd be amazed at how well simple tenkan motions and good ol' nikkyo can be. Try applying nikkyo the next time a BJJ grabs your lapel, then hold it for second or two, or three after they tap so they can fully appreciate its efficacy. Most of the BJJ guys have never felt a proper wrist lock and when they do, boy does it get their attention. It also makes them instantaneously less grabby. They're so often concerned with not getting choked out, that they forget about good ol' pain compliance (crude, but effective). It's also humbling from a psychological point of view because it is so quick and effective.
Of course, if none of that works and he does get you to the ground, get into full mount, take your thumbs and drive them into his eye sockets and start doing push ups (literally). I assure they WILL comply with great expedience. Another oldie but goodie is to physically bite their nose while in full mount. You can choose to bite it off fully at your discretion. Look at what a little bite on the ear did to "Iron" Mike Tyson. Image that was your nose and realize you're not 10% as tough as Mike. Heck, you can stop a Great White Shark if you hit him hard enough on the nose and do the eye gouge trick, which means a BJJ guy should is a piece of cake.
It's simply a matter of how far you're willing to go. I practice MARTIAL arts. Martial=military=killing/potentially lethal. If someone wants to study grapple-sport-competition-entertainment that's something else entirely and I could care less.

Good luck getting into full mount against a BJJ player, and if you somehow manage to get there, good luck staying there long enough to eye gouge or bite. By the way, the whole eye gouging defence is ridiculous anyway: check out this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFYDb9Ki5o0. BJJ is the most martial (potentially lethal), martial art I have ever experienced; sport or not, the techniques are very real and deadly if needed.

The multiple opponent argument, never go to the ground; good idea. But what if you have to? Wouldn't it be nice to know how to quickly choke someone unconscious, or dislocate an arm, then get the hell out of there? Again, if you are mounted with multiple opponents the Bjj player knows many escapes. It is extremely short sighted thinking to just assume that you wont end up on the ground.

If you can afford it, and have the time, learn the ground game! Bjj + Aikido should be very complimentary. Just watch some Roy Dean clips for examples.

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Forgive me for making this simple . . . How do you defend? Like any other move. Keep your balance, take his. If he grabs, blend and throw. If he kicks, move then control. If you do not know how to do these things yet, you still have many classes to attend. If they like the ground . . . stay off it and don't use pins that put you both there.

Balance and Ki solve many difficult situations, whether in the street or the board room.

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

To defend myself from I BJJ guy I have a very effective technique. Before he grabs you make a turn so your back is towards him. Then put your left foot before your right, now put your right foot before your left, repeat very fast.... run, just, run!

Disclaimer: all stated above has the potential of being complete nonsense

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Thanks for the correction. Yes, Mike was the biter and Holyfield the victim. Either way, they're both bigger, stronger and tougher than any of us will ever be, yet a simple bite to the ear (not even a vital organ) stopped him in his tracks. Just imagine it was his nose. If you hit ANY creature in the nose properly, you will DROP them instantly. With regards to your statement that "BJJ is the most martial (potentially lethal), martial art I have ever experienced" clearly indicates you're new to martial arts and haven't experienced very much. Even the (not so) mighty Gracies will be the first to tell you that their techniques are for sport first, self-defense second and were never intended to be "potentially lethal". While the BJJ self-defense techniques are very effective, they are also heavily modified for street applications where "going to the ground" with your opponent(s) is never advisable. Oh, and BJJ players get caught in full mount all day every day. After all, why do you think they teach techniques for getting out of mount, unless you've been put in it to begin with? There's also a reason why eye gauging is ban in ALL fight sports, save Vale Tudo (I think)? Because it works incredibly well, that's why. You can debate weather it's "noble" or not, but if someone is truly attacking me and/or my loved ones, I could care less. They'll be lucky to be alive after I'm done with them.

Of course, not all BJJ players are of equal skill level either. After all, just because someone plays the violin, doesn't mean they're actually any good at it. There are many people who have been practicing their chosen art for years and years that are just awful. They aren't good now and they never will be, but they have fun all the same. Kind of like the kid in band class with no rhythm. He can't keep a beat to save his life, but he's got heart, which counts for a lot, but to call him a musician would be a lie. Still don't believe me? Just go to your local college, or high school for that matter, and ask to take a roll on the mat with the Captain of the Wrestling team. Feel free to use all the BJJ you want.....if you can They're not even "martial artists", just a bunch of dumb jocks and yet they can throw must of us around like a rag dolls.

Self-Defense is simple really, just be willing to do WHATEVER it takes to survive. That is all. This generally entails hitting a soft thing with a hard thing. A nose with a fist, a skull with a bat, body with a bullet. You get the idea.

Here are some clips of fellas having a tough time in the mount from the bottom position. Can you say ground and pound? It happens to the best of them. So, if you're taking someone(s) to the ground you better dang sure be good, if not, you will loose badly and often.
Again, with all things being equal, the high ground wins. Planes are better than tanks, cavalry is better than infantry, standing is better than kneeling, mount is better than guard. This is also why virtually all Aikido waza end with uke on the mat and nage in a "superior" (i.e. kneeling or standing) position.

Clearly you're new to martial arts and love BJJ, but don't get caught in the trap of thinking one art is inherently superior to another. They all have strengths and weaknesses, even (especially?) BJJ. Besides, it all comes down to the individual practitioner in the end, not the style they choose to use. After all, it's the size of the fight in the dog, not the size of the dog in the fight.

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:

Richard Vader wrote:

To defend myself from I BJJ guy I have a very effective technique. Before he grabs you make a turn so your back is towards him. Then put your left foot before your right, now put your right foot before your left, repeat very fast.... run, just, run!

Again, just because they're a BJJ player doesn't make them immortal, or unbeatable. On the contrary, the best fighters in the world today (Silva, Weidman, Emiliananko, Jones) are all lights-out strikers. Quite frankly, the BJJ code has been cracked from some time now. Also, from a purely tactical standpoint, NEVER give up your back to a BJJ player, or anyone else for that matter. Better to stand your ground.

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Karl Arant wrote:

Quote:

d" clearly indicates you're new to martial arts and haven't experienced very much. Even the (not so) mighty Gracies will be the first to tell you that their techniques are for sport first, self-defense second

Actually you will find the exact opposite. Most of the old school Gracies lament the direction that many BJJ schools have taken the art. Helio Gracie was adamant about the fact that SD was first and foremost the concern of BJJ. My friends the Valente brothers in Miami are very, very clear about this and it is very evident when you train in their gym.

Quote:

There's also a reason why eye gauging is ban in ALL fight sports, save Vale Tudo (I think)? Because it works incredibly well, that's why.

No it was banned because it is incredibly stupid and dangerous to poke someone's eyes out. Has nothing to do with effective or ineffective. Of course it is effective, but that is not why it was banned.

Eye gouging is not really a special skill pretty much anyone can do it. However, putting yourself in an effective position to gouge someones eyes...that does require a modicum of skill, hence why the emphasis is on the obtainment of position and not on the eye gouge aspect.

Quote:

not all BJJ players are of equal skill level either. After all, just because someone plays the violin, doesn't mean they're actually any good at it.

Which is why lineage is important in BJJ and why there is a belt system. Also, the mat don't lie. so, how good you are becomes apparent very quickly.

Quote:

Just go to your local college, or high school for that matter, and ask to take a roll on the mat with the Captain of the Wrestling team. Feel free to use all the BJJ you want.....if you can They're not even "martial artists", just a bunch of dumb jocks and yet they can throw must of us around like a rag dolls.

Has not been my experience generically. In fact it is the exact opposite, and not because wrestlers are not any good at what they do, it is because they have a very specific rule set and train to exploit and capitalize on those rules. A BJJer has a much broader set of rules and parameters, thus you will find that if you put a wrestler on the mat with a BJJer with comparable skills, the wrestler does not do as well under less restrictive rule set. However, the same is true if you restrict a BJJer to wrestling rules with no experience in that sport. What you learn from this is that rules, or lack of rules matter and need to be considered when you train.

Quote:

Self-Defense is simple really, just be willing to do WHATEVER it takes to survive.

Its not all that simple all the time. simplicity depends on many things. just because you are WILLING does not mean you are ABLE. I've been studying this stuff for about 25 years now and I have not found it necessarily to be "simple". The SD environment can be quite complex.

Quote:

This generally entails hitting a soft thing with a hard thing. A nose with a fist, a skull with a bat, body with a bullet. You get the idea.

This assumes that you have a high degree of control of the situation, when in fact, in most SD situations you may typically have a high degree of failure, thus lack of control that you have to work to make up for. Thus, why things are not so simple.

Quote:

Here are some clips of fellas having a tough time in the mount from the bottom position. Can you say ground and pound?

I no of no one I have studied with the advocates taking someone to the ground as a SD strategy. However, again, failure in SD may dictate that this is where you end up and you need to have skills to mitigate that situation.

The ground and pound fight strategy works very well for MMA because of the constraints of the rules. It may or may not be a good strategy for SD. I had someone ask me the other day how fights end...alot of them end because someone else shows up. Could be your buddy, his buddy, or a neutral party. Ground and Pound in SD when others might be involved may not play out the way it does in the ring. Again, good skills to have and understand, but also need to consider that GnP has its limitations as a SD strategy. I can go on for a long time about how GnP is essentially a "battle of attrition" ...but I think the point is fairly well illustrated.

Quote:

Planes are better than tanks, cavalry is better than infantry, standing is better than kneeling, mount is better than guard.

As an Infantry Officer, I would beg to differ on this. The reality is that one is not better than the other, they all have strengths and weaknesses and the Leader that can properly employ these tools Strategically, Operationally, and Tactically...that is understands the ART, will be successful.

The same is true of SD and fighting skills. You need to have a varied background and understand the environment and how to employ what and when.

I do agree that all MA have their strengths and weaknesses and BJJ is no exception. We have to work very hard to understand the environment and how our own paradigms, experiences, cultures, training, skills interact in that environment. This is no easy task IMO and is a lifelong pursuit.

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:

Karl Arant wrote:

Thanks for the correction. Yes, Mike was the biter and Holyfield the victim. Either way, they're both bigger, stronger and tougher than any of us will ever be, yet a simple bite to the ear (not even a vital organ) stopped him in his tracks. Just imagine it was his nose. If you hit ANY creature in the nose properly, you will DROP them instantly. With regards to your statement that "BJJ is the most martial (potentially lethal), martial art I have ever experienced" clearly indicates you're new to martial arts and haven't experienced very much. Even the (not so) mighty Gracies will be the first to tell you that their techniques are for sport first, self-defense second and were never intended to be "potentially lethal". While the BJJ self-defense techniques are very effective, they are also heavily modified for street applications where "going to the ground" with your opponent(s) is never advisable. Oh, and BJJ players get caught in full mount all day every day. After all, why do you think they teach techniques for getting out of mount, unless you've been put in it to begin with? There's also a reason why eye gauging is ban in ALL fight sports, save Vale Tudo (I think)? Because it works incredibly well, that's why. You can debate weather it's "noble" or not, but if someone is truly attacking me and/or my loved ones, I could care less. They'll be lucky to be alive after I'm done with them. .

Clearly, you know very little about BJJ. Your statement about the Gracies "being the first to tell you that their techniques are for sport" is ridiculous and ignorant. The Gracies held Vale Tudo matches to prove the effectiveness of the art in real self defense situations; eye gouging and all. Oh, and sure some BJJ players aren't as good as others, but unlike other martial arts there is no way to fool others about your abilities. As Kevin says, the mats don't lie.

As for your "BJJ players get caught in mount," well yeah, against other BJJ players. Obviously we train getting out of mount in BJJ and also how to get into mount and maintain it. What was your point?

PS-- Every choke in jiu jitsu is potentially lethal. Ridiculous to say otherwise.

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

This is just the thread I was looking for! I believe I have found the answers. The two most commonly displayed techniques that I believe a BJJ fighter will use to incapacitate are the single/double leg takedown and the rear naked choke. Check these videos. These aren't new techniques they are just cool minds.

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Best way to deal with it Aikido way!!

If you spot someone with intentions on attacking you, you should read their intenctions and act first( this is irimi to). Act first can mean run fast and faster or just punch the throat of someone or hit him with a brick!! Aikido philosophy is to be in such mean so superior in the art of conflict that you can choose not to kill your opponent and instead give him a lesson he wont forget and will for sure appreciate and became a friend instead of an enemy!

If your technique or mastering of Aikido isn't enough to act in this maner, to save your life just run or hit them with a brick and try not to kill! A jujitsu guy is just a human! A dangerous enemy is just another human.

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Gonšalo,

I think your examples assume a degree of choice that may not be present in a self defense situation.

Your strategies may work or be appropriate if you have those choices and objects available to you.

First, you must "spot the intention". You may not be able to do this. Many, i'd say most, attacks are surprises. The attacker concealed his intentions to put you at a disadvantage. He has closed the distance in someway and isolated your ability to make choices. Running, punching or choking are things that may not be immediately available to you until you re-orient and gain control of those choices again.

Good jiu jitsu systems, to include aikido, which is a jiu jitsu system, should train with this in mind. we should practice from different ranges of distance, balance, positional advantage/disadvantage to achieve a better understanding of what is available to us physically. This training should also help us understand the emotional and mental areas that are certainly triggered or effected in these situations.

To study aikido or any form of Jiu Jitsu is to better understand this environment.

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:

Garth Jones wrote:

This thread won't die!

For everybody who keeps referencing Mike Tyson and the famous ear biting incident - Tyson was the biter and Evander Holyfield was the victim of the bite.

I was wondering if someone was going to point that out.

Try not to go to the ground, good idea. But, if the ground swallows you up, because the other guy managed a good, slick takedown, or you stepped on a banana peel, whatever, you need to know what Not to do while down there. That list is relatively straightforward and simple to learn, probably takes 90 days of rolling with BJJ people to learn what Not to do, and it might be a good idea to know that.

But, to be honest, I very seriously doubt that there is a "Bad Guy" who happens to be a black-belt BJJ bad-ass out there a-hunting... I just don't see that happening.

I find it interesting that the kanji character for kuzushi illustrates a mountain falling on a house.

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Agree John, you do not need to master BJJ in order to develop skills to use on the ground. It is just like anything dealing with fighting, you do not need to master any martial art, you need a basic strategy for managing the different elements and dynamics of fighting. The problem is that most people do not adequately develop an understanding or framework of how to do this.

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:

Kevin Leavitt wrote:

Agree John, you do not need to master BJJ in order to develop skills to use on the ground. It is just like anything dealing with fighting, you do not need to master any martial art, you need a basic strategy for managing the different elements and dynamics of fighting. The problem is that most people do not adequately develop an understanding or framework of how to do this.

I agree, but i think that strategy in martial arts comes during training, in the moment of taking action start thinking is the worst strategy!!
I remember a story from Hiroshi Isoyama, something like a big american soldier doubting about Aikido and asking what would sensei do if he were grabbed from behind by a much more strong man. Sensei agreed to be grabbed and them just hit the big guy with the back of the head.
People say usually " - thats not Aikido!". Fighting is always fighting, theres no referee counting points or stop people from doing nasty things like fingers in the eyes!!

I train Aikido since 2006 and also BJJ since 2011. I love Bjj just because its extremely fun and really makes you realise that fighting in the ground is a completely different world, but its a sport with competition, when training Bjj you learn how to win a battle with rules!! when someone makes me tap with a arm lock, i always think if my life was on the line , i will just start eating is legs in front of my face.

Please don't look at BJJ fighter like they are just too strong and take you to the ground and put you to sleep!! they do that against people that agree to play with them in their rules!! This don't mean they are weak fighters in "street conditions", Here in Portugal everybody knows that guys like constrution workers are the guys to avoid in fighting, they have hands reinforced with many nano layers of rocks and concrete, armed with glass beer bottles and dont use their brains if not necessary!!

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

just a few experiences of mine on the original subject (BJJ attack and Aikido defense):
I started Aikido in a dojo where the sensei was teaching Aikido with quite the fighter mentality as he was an experienced fighter himself, and thus he valued what he called "effective" techniques over "pure" aikido techniques. This way a lot of karate/judo elements were incorporated in our training. Now, despite his preference to the "effective", he held Aikido principles in the highest esteem, so we were still doing Aikido, even though it was augmented with judo/karate elements. That was until we met BJJ. Then we began playing around ground fighting/grappling, and a slow, painful process began as we saw all our beloved Aikido techniques proven useless against this new fighting style. Eventually the entire dojo were converted to BJJ.
We were trying a lot of things, but basically if you are fighting with a Aikido against a grappling opponent, you have to feel distance and positioning extremely well, atemi is a must, you need to utilize your center very precisely - all in all you need to do aikido at a very high level, and even then, you will not get away unless you have a good knowledge on how a takedown works. And that is, if your opponent is at a beginner level. With more experienced BJJ grapplers things can get exponentially worse.

PS: some early post mentioned ki aikido exercises as a possible counter for takedowns. Sadly, in my experience, they wont suffice. Unbendable arm wont save you from armlocks nor will unliftable body prevent you from being taken down. They work fine against forces with constant direction and intensity, but against spiralling or "jerky" grabs where the opponent can change the direction of the force any time, they wont work, or it would require an extremely high level of skill to make them work.

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

I used to do aikido almost exclusively. For the past several years, I've been doing BJJ almost exclusively.

With the pervasive nature of MMA, I'd claim that the strategy and techniques of MMA, however sloppily applied, are becoming increasingly relevant.

If you are interested in aikido self-defense applications, many aren't and that's super cool with me, a first step that I'd recommend is buying the Gracie Combatives DVDs and spending some time with them. You could then extend that into other information on YouTube.

You *do* need to be aware of, and keep distinct, that there is BJJ competition that doesn't allow striking. For example, there is a "Koala Guard" that can be very effective in grappling competition that'd be, er ah, less effective if striking is allowed.

One of the great advantages that I've found to BJJ is the ability to train at 100% intensity without undue injury. It's fun and it's valuable.

Don't think from this that I no longer value aikido. I do. I miss it very, very much. I especially miss the attitude of respect that permeates a good aikido dojo.

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

The issue is really about training so you are comfortable on the ground or in dealing with strikes. Unfortunately a lot of aikido teachers only have theoretical or limited experience. The value of having extensive experience in a competitive art is that you gain a certain comfort when under stress.
The technique in itself is not important. The ability to respond and apply aikido principles should be part of our training, in my opinion.

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:

Ahmed Altalib wrote:

I have lately been coming across much boasting by the Brazilian Jujitsu practioners about their grappling techniques and claims that no martial art would stand a chance once you are on the ground how ever there must be more than one Aikido technique which if applied in that second the Brazilian Jujitsu fighter reaches with his hand to grab would neutralize the whole attack so what is it in your opinion?

... stepping away. Evade, etc. Simple. Frustrating to a grappler, too. Don't get caught in a box, like a bathroom stall (eww... think of going to the ground in your average men's room. Ack...).

I find it interesting that the kanji character for kuzushi illustrates a mountain falling on a house.

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Wow, big thread. It is clear that Aikido practicioners are concerned about the threat of other martial arts. Kudos to you all. I guess the only solution is to train BJJ. Also, I love it, its just Aikido on the ground with all the same principles that apply. High level practicioners use very little strength and if I use the Gracies (ryron and rener have a great channel on youtube) as an example they have very similar philosophies to training. Also, some of the MMA styles will help, takedown defense etc. and you can weave some aikido in there with techniques like Kata-Ha.