We knew this would happen, didn’t we? Here are probably the two most despicable right wing reactions so far to the school massacre in Newtown, Connecticut.

First, Mike Huckabee on Fox News (of course), saying that we shouldn’t be surprised that “schools become a place of carnage” when we have “systematically removed God from our schools.”

HUCKABEE: Well, you know, it’s an interesting thing. We ask why there is violence in our schools but we have systematically removed God from our schools. Should we be so surprised that schools would become a place of carnage? Because we’ve made it a place where we don’t want to talk about eternity, life, what responsibility means, accountability - that we’re not just going to have be accountable to the police if they catch us, but one day we stand before, you know, a holy God in judgment. If we don’t believe that, then we don’t fear that. And so I sometimes, when people say, why did God let it happen. You know, God wasn’t armed. He didn’t go to the school. But God will be there in the form of a lot people with hugs and with therapy and awhole lot of ways in which he will be involved in the aftermath. Maybe we ought to let him in on the front end and we wouldn’t have to call him to show up it’s all said and done at the back end.

The ever-execrable Bryan Fischer echoes this theme, saying God could have protected the children in Newtown, but “God is not going to go where he’s not wanted,” because God is a “gentleman.”

Repost from downstairs because it's the only thing that comes to mind when I hear or see religious fundamentalist garbage like this:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?

Piss on their worthless lie of a god. He never had a problem with killing kids anyway.

I'm sorry, but it's like the only way to make anything more disgusting is to add a sprinkling of religion. 20 dead kids not bad enough? Invoke a figment of your imagination to scold the rest of the world about it.

Whatever psychological problem the shooter is inevitably found to have had, it's odd that no deity saw fit to remove it...

These men are major leaders in the fundy political complex, shrewd operators with their money-grubbing fingers constantly on the pulse of their audience. They feel no compunction about making insanely callous and historically illiterate statements like this because they know it will play well with that target audience. It has come to this, a dystopian nightmare in which a significant part of the population has been indoctrinated to the point of actual insanity, and demonically cruel insanity at that. This is becoming very dangerous.

These men are major leaders in the fundy political complex, shrewd operators with their money-grubbing fingers constantly on the pulse of their audience. They feel no compunction about making insanely callous and historically illiterate statements like this because they know it will play well with that target audience. It has come to this, a dystopian nightmare in which a significant part of the population has been indoctrinated to the point of actual insanity, and demonically cruel insanity at that. This is becoming very dangerous.

Its because of assholes like this I took a good hard look at the GOP, packed my bags, and left them.

At this point, I'm willing to start blaming these clowns for their share of the social rot that is probably contributing to mass shootings.

These are intensely hateful people, with a large podium from which to deliver that hate into society as a whole. Hate, gun fetishism, violence as entertainment, etc., etc., etc., ad nauseam all seem like plausible factors that can contribute to the frequency with which people at the margins of society and with poor impulse control start shooting.

These men are major leaders in the fundy political complex, shrewd operators with their money-grubbing fingers constantly on the pulse of their audience. They feel no compunction about making insanely callous and historically illiterate statements like this because they know it will play well with that target audience. It has come to this, a dystopian nightmare in which a significant part of the population has been indoctrinated to the point of actual insanity, and demonically cruel insanity at that. This is becoming very dangerous.

What scares me is that whether or not they mean it, what they say is part of the anatomy of a worldview which has real power in this nation. They're the voice for a population segment that our politicians heed and try to appease.

What if this murdering monster in Connecticut had decided to kill his mom in church? It could have happened. Dr. Tiller was murdered in church after all. Oh, but in Fischer's maggot infested mind that freak was doing God's work, so it would be okay.

Or, Fischer has made God in his own image, who conveniently happens to hate and loath all the same things that Fischer does. What a coincidence.

I can't speak about Fischer, knowing nothing about him, but your the 'making God in his own image' is right on the mark.
That's the problem with the fundamentalists of any religion- they try to make their concept of god fit into their own limited understanding. One finds misunderstandings at all levels of belief.

When these yahoos tell you what "God" thinks, they're really telling you what they think. They're sadistic, passive-aggressive narcissists, so they imagine/want God to be the same. Consciously or not, when they talk about "God's" desires and motivations, they're saying "this is the way I unquestionably believe the world should be". And when you marginalize and ignore Huck & Fischer's will, you're actually marginalizing "God".

In their world, this "God" felt that he wasn't being sufficiently institutionally revered, so of course it's perfectly understandable that some jerkoff should come in and erase a bunch of kids and adults, because that will fucking show them what happens when you ignore me, won't it? After all, this is "God" we're talking about here, and only a fool would disagree with "God".

And lookie here, now we're paying attention to Huck & Fischer again all of a sudden, aren't we.

Yet for God's alledged inactions those souls whose lives were lost are probably in a much better place than the current crop of neo-Pharisees who keep making these asymmetric pronouncements as if they have the almighty on speed-dial, when in reality there isn't enough quetiapine to straighten their addled thinking and continue to be the current money-changers.

As we've already seen, many of these folk pronounced Obama's win as an another example of God's supposed inaction. Now turn it on its head-tell them that God ordained Obama to win and stand back-and as we all know, God can't be wrong now, can he?

Jonesy, you've been screaming that for decades now. That guy knocking on your door isn't from the BATF, he's from Domino's.

Actually -and excluding the "fix" language - he may be right.

We the people tend to need a big spark. When we get one, we tend to act. This was pretty big, and it on the heels of the last one may actually cause movement.

Now I'm going to wager a lot of time, money, and effort gets spent delaying and obfuscating. We may not see an actual bill this time.

But we're going to see a discussion. We're going to see a reaction to the NRA's guns for everybody all the time position. And the result is the next time (and yes, sadly, there will be a next time) the groundwork will be laid.

And in some cases yes, they will come for some people's guns. Because if you're a paranoid anti-social (used to be sociopath) or involved in a vengeance situation you shouldn't have or have access to firearms.

We the people tend to need a big spark. When we get one, we tend to act. This was pretty big, and it on the heels of the last one may actually cause movement.

Now I'm going to wager a lot of time, money, and effort gets spent delaying and obfuscating. We may not see an actual bill this time.

But we're going to see a discussion. We're going to see a reaction to the NRA's guns for everybody all the time position. And the result is the next time (and yes, sadly, there will be a next time) the groundwork will be laid.

And in some cases yes, they will come for some people's guns. Because if you're a paranoid anti-social (used to be sociopath) or involved in a vengeance situation you shouldn't have or have access to firearms.

I'd like to believe that, but I stopped believing it 61 odd public shootings ago. Here in VA, after the Virginia Tech shooting, what did the public talk about it? Did talk gun control? Sure, as in they thought there was too much and what we needed was free-fire zones on college campuses. Needed to allow students to come to class armed, that teachers needed to be armed, and we needed to turn college campuses into fortresses so that we could avoid future shootings.

We as a nation can't have a discussion until the day that the "If everybody was armed..." argument is buried 6 feet under.

Yeah, I tell them to change the channel if they see some guy in a brown suit with a telephone number at the bottom of the screen asking for money. -- on being asked by Tipper Gore if there was anything on the TV he _didn't_ allow his kids to watch ...

"Our nation once shared a God who we all prayed to. Increasingly, the loudest voices in the nation are hostile to that God and those who worship him. The conversation at times of evil is immediately drown out by political opportunists seeking to drive their agenda. The news channels meditate on the nature of gun violence and gun restrictions or what other restrictions or laws can ever be used."

I'd like to believe that, but I stopped believing it 61 odd public shootings ago. Here in VA, after the Virginia Tech shooting, what did the public talk about it? Did talk gun control? Sure, as in they thought there was too much and what we needed was free-fire zones on college campuses. Needed to allow students to come to class armed, that teachers needed to be armed, and we needed to turn college campuses into fortresses so that we could avoid future shootings.

We as a nation can't have a discussion until the day that the "If everybody was armed..." argument is buried 6 feet under.

It's the particular dead that makes me think this. That, and the way the president spoke today.

Shootings at high schools and colleges give the illusion of adults - of people who 'could have done something'.

A kindergarten class? It grabs very, very hard.

You could be right, and in fact I agree enough I don't think we'll have changes started this time. But I think we'll have enough this time - especially has frequently as these have been happening recently - that change is possible.

Repost from downstairs because it's the only thing that comes to mind when I hear or see religious fundamentalist garbage like this:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?

--Epicurius

I am willing to concede the point that god is real but that he is a complete asshole.

It's the particular dead that makes me think this. That, and the way the president spoke today.

Shootings at high schools and colleges give the illusion of adults - of people who 'could have done something'.

A kindergarten class? It grabs very, very hard.

You could be right, and in fact I agree enough I don't think we'll have changes started this time. But I think we'll have enough this time - especially has frequently as these have been happening recently - that change is possible.

I've got a wingnut on another board telling me that the solution to today's tragedy would be to start requiring teachers to pack heat and take gun handling courses, because Israeli teachers are allowed to pack heat and they've been able to put down terrorists.

Yeah, that's why God allowed Catholic priests to molest thousands and thousands of children in dozens of countries, because we took God out of the churches...

Oh wait.

Charles, I know you didn't intend it this way, but if you restrained your impulse to knock Bryan Fischer on his ass long enough to actually say this to him, he would probably, in all seriousness, agree. Hyper-evangelicals of Fischer's bent believe that the Catholic Church is anywhere between "godless" and "Satanic".

I've got a wingnut on another board telling me that the solution to today's tragedy would be to start requiring teachers to pack heat and take gun handling courses, because Israeli teachers are allowed to pack heat and they've been able to put down terrorists.

He lived in Israel at one time and he heard about it, so that's what he knows to be the truth. I asked him if he considered that Israeli teachers are trained soldiers who are on reserve for most of their lives and can be called up at any time, meaning they have to keep their skills sharp. He declared that one doesn't have to be a trained soldier to put down a crazed gunman.

He lived in Israel at one time and he heard about it, so that's what he knows to be the truth. I asked him if he considered that Israeli teachers are trained soldiers who are on reserve for most of their lives and can be called up at any time, meaning they have to keep their skills sharp. He declared that one doesn't have to be a trained soldier to put down a crazed gunman.

Let me guess, said wingnut thinks he's a good enough shot to do that and never ever served in the military?

He lived in Israel at one time and he heard about it, so that's what he knows to be the truth. I asked him if he considered that Israeli teachers are trained soldiers who are on reserve for most of their lives and can be called up at any time, meaning they have to keep their skills sharp. He declared that one doesn't have to be a trained soldier to put down a crazed gunman.

Soldier, no. Trained, yes. I would not want to put my kid's life in the hands of a random stranger with a gun versus another random stranger with lots of guns.

In a way, people like Bryan Fischer and Mike Huckabee are the true atheists. Because if they really believed in their evil, vengeful God, they'd never be so eager to speak in his behalf.

And as much as they accuse liberalism and secularism of damning relativism, it's they who really have subjective moral standards. Their worldview posits a God who hasn't creating morals and rules out of love or kindness, but solely as an exercise of authority. If "God" does something, it must be good.

Troubling thing is Fishers abuses are protected under the law so we are stuck with him and his show.

It's much worse than that because Fischer isn't just a lone wingnut. There a millions of people in this country who believe exactly the same thing. Just check out a few RWNJ sites to see the confirmation.

He lived in Israel at one time and he heard about it, so that's what he knows to be the truth. I asked him if he considered that Israeli teachers are trained soldiers who are on reserve for most of their lives and can be called up at any time, meaning they have to keep their skills sharp. He declared that one doesn't have to be a trained soldier to put down a crazed gunman.

uh-huh. Let me see if I can recall. One handgun only with limited ammunition supply, must take knowledge and mental health exam every five years. Applicant must be active or reservist, or in one of a handful of 'at risk' categories. ummm, or be a settler in west bank or gaza. And I think retired military or police are eligible.

I'd have to look up to see if those have loosened (and what I've forgotten) but it's not the wide open situation your acquaintance believes.

As to putting down crazed gunmen... yeah. One of the people who thinks a carrier in the theater would have succeeded.

We are still getting a really muddy picture of the brother, Ryan Lanza. I am starting to think that the mistaken Ryan from earlier actually was the brother of Adam. I can't even tell if he was actually taken into custody or not.

The bible really honestly does contain loads of fucked-up shit. It's cool that a lot of modern religious people don't follow the fucked up shit and have come up theology to put it to the side, but it is really still there, and it is really still fucked up.

I'll tell you how Fischer and Barton really make me feel. A little over 40 years ago, a busload of refugees ran over an anti-tank mine on Route 3 in the Republic of Vietnam. I saw it happen. Fifty or so people, about half of them children, were killed. I won't bother you, or myself, with any graphic description of the scene. A soldier made a disgusting joke that I won't repeat.
An officer kicked him in the backside and sent him sprawling, right in front of dozens of witnesses. The soldier said he would have the officer brought up on charges but he never did. I realize the officer was wrong to act on that impulse, but he acted on real feelings in the face of an unspeakable situation. I have the same kind of feelings about Barton and Fischer just now. It would be wrong to act on that impulse either, but I will not reproach myself for the impulse alone.

Try again sometime, with context historical, cultural & theological. Preferably without any predetermined outcomes that make you no better than that sick fuck Huck.

I doubt you can. You like hating as much as he does.

Dude, the OT is a hotbed of murder and mayhem. Seriously, are you trying to tell us that lines like "Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes" from Isiah 13:15 is an allegory for something?

Most Catholics (60 percent) and white non-evangelical Protestants (65 percent) say they believe disasters like hurricanes and floods are the result of climate change.

But nearly two-thirds (65 percent) of white evangelical Protestants say they think the storms are evidence of the "end times" as predicted by the Bible.

Overall, 36 percent point to end times and 63 percent to climate change.

PRRI research director Daniel Cox said that some respondents - including 75 percent of non-white Protestants - believe extreme weather is both evidence of end times and the result of climate change.

"No one really knows how (end times) would look and how God would bring it about," Cox said.

Politics also color perceptions of the weather, the survey found. More than three-quarters of Democrats and six in 10 independents believe that the weather has become more extreme over the last few years, while less than half of Republicans say they have perceived such a shift.

"Their political leanings are even affecting how they experience weather, which is pretty fascinating," said Cox.

The bible really honestly does contain loads of fucked-up shit. It's cool that a lot of modern religious people don't follow the fucked up shit and have come up theology to put it to the side, but it is really still there, and it is really still fucked up.

I agree with you Obdicut, but Destro is simply someone who wants an excuse to hate as much as Huck does. He's not interested in the rest, simply repeating things that Marcion of Sinope would have agreed with.

When I see people like Huckabee essentially stand over a pile of dead kids and "TOLDJA SO!", I get tired of being diplomatic.

It's a chain reaction for me. People who believe in a Christian god (justifiably) dogpile on the fanatics, but ignore the bigger issue of how this loving omniscient entity they believe will sit by and let innocent kids die.

I can't do that kind of cognitive dissonance anymore, or in situations like this.

Oh c'mon. The OT God does come off like a complete cock knocker. Drowning the world in flood. Transmogrifying Lot's wife. Hardening Pharaoh's heart just so he could then inflict the plagues. Burning the son's of Aaron to death for making a mistake during a ritual. Sending Joshua and the Israelites to Jericho in Caanan and having them destroy everything.

They completely destroyed everything in it - men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep, donkeys - everything.

Compare that to the NT God who pretty much at his worst just bitched a fig tree to death and talked shit about how he came to "bring a sword."

We are still getting a really muddy picture of the brother, Ryan Lanza. I am starting to think that the mistaken Ryan from earlier actually was the brother of Adam. I can't even tell if he was actually taken into custody or not.

C BS showed Ryan being led in cuffs (somewhere,) earlier. Yhey took great pains to explain the cuffs as 'routine'.

Reminds me of the interrogation scene in Lord of War, of Ethan Hawke's character pointing out that there are more prestigious positions he could take, like guarding the nation's nuclear weapon stockpile. But the thing is that those nukes aren't going anywhere, they sit in their silos quietly. It's the AK-47, that's the weapon of mass destruction, that's the weapon that kills millions of people every year.

Oh c'mon. The OT God does come off like a complete cock knocker. Drowning the world in flood. Transmogrifying Lot's wife. Hardening Pharaoh's heart just so he could then inflict the plagues. Burning the son's of Aaron to death for making a mistake during a ritual. Sending Joshua and the Israelites to Jericho in Caanan and having them destroy everything.

Don't forget how he treated his loyal servant Job. Murdered his entire family, killed all his livestock, and inflicted on Job hideous physical ailments. He did make it up in the end, though, by giving Job a brand spanking new family and even more material stuff, so I guess Job didn't miss his old wife and kids.

Oh c'mon. The OT God does come off like a complete cock knocker. Drowning the world in flood. Transmogrifying Lot's wife. Hardening Pharaoh's heart just so he could then inflict the plagues. Burning the son's of Aaron to death for making a mistake during a ritual. Sending Joshua and the Israelites to Jericho in Caanan and having them destroy everything.

Compare that to the NT God who pretty much at his worst just bitched a fig tree to death and talked shit about how he came to "bring a sword."

... and offer warnings about those who claim to speak for God- many will cry Lord, Lord... they come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves...

And I'm really glad to report that all that work redesigning the database code for the new servers paid off. Sailed through all the surges without even slowing down as far as I could tell. No DB connection errors at all.

And I'm really glad to report that all that work redesigning the database code for the new servers paid off. Sailed through all the surges without even slowing down as far as I could tell. No DB connection errors at all.

Wow, we got Farked and nary a blip on the latency meters. I am impressed. Next step, Slashdot!

Saying accurate things about the Bible is not declaring open season on religion.

Cherry picking is often "accurate". It's also misleading. Is that a fair summery of the bible in your view? In this case it's ignoring any and all of the good things the OT or new testament calls for. Lots of old religious documents are quite violent as was the time and place. But thanks to one horrible day, Mr Huckabee and Fischer, we have what I objected to.

Would a similarly hostile post about the Koran be appropriate here today? Or shall we wait for some horrific incident at an Islamic school? Or as I believe-We should refrain from that kind of thing.

Do we really want to see a Pam Geller & Islam kind of view of the bible here today? I don't.

And I'm really glad to report that all that work redesigning the database code for the new servers paid off. Sailed through all the surges without even slowing down as far as I could tell. No DB connection errors at all.

I clicked on that link and it hijacked the tab, so I used the back button and got another Frank Says:

Cherry picking is often "accurate". It's also misleading. Is that a fair summery of the bible in your view? In this case it's ignoring any and all of the good things the OT or new testament calls for. Lots of old religious documents are quite violent as was the time and place. But thanks to one horrible day, Mr Huckabee and Fischer, we have what I objected to.

Would a similarly hostile post about the Koran be appropriate here today? Or shall we wait for some horrific incident at an Islamic school? Or as I believe-We should refrain from that kind of thing.

Do we really want to see a Pam Geller & Islam kind of view of the bible here today? I don't.

The larger point is that every Christian is a so-called "Cafeteria Christian". Some pick and choose the good/inspirational parts of the bible, others choose to focus on the demented and evil shit it contains. Really undercuts the whole scripture as authority business model... As far as I know, these exact same observations apply to Islam and the Koran as well.

Cherry picking is often "accurate". It's also misleading. Is that a fair summery of the bible in your view? In this case it's ignoring any and all of the good things the OT or new testament calls for. Lots of old religious documents are quite violent as was the time and place. But thanks to one horrible day, Mr Huckabee and Fischer, we have what I objected to.

Would a similarly hostile post about the Koran be appropriate here today? Or shall we wait for some horrific incident at an Islamic school? Or as I believe-We should refrain from that kind of thing.

Do we really want to see a Pam Geller & Islam kind of view of the bible here today? I don't.

I just came back from Facebook where a friend of my brother's was doing some kind of MBF act, citing school murders by Muslims using Jihad Watch, NRO, thereligionofpeace, and Free Republic as sources. I think his point was that the US ain't so bad--look at these other people. It's a senseless reaction when there's obviously something wrong here to point elsewhere and say there's something wrong 'over there'.

So, no MBF act, you're right that we should refrain from that. But let's not shy away from talking about what's wrong here.

If an Imam said the kind of crap these two - or is it now three - douchenozzles said, you bet your ass it would.

Well tread carefully. You registered here recently. Just be aware that some have posted anti Islamic/anti Muslim rants here that got them in real trouble with Charles, due to old history of a lot of that here in the old days. I just say this as a person that tries to follow the rules out of respect to Charles and what he gives us here.

All I'm doing is asking, just requesting us to stop short of that point of using cherry picked passages to disrespect a religion, rather than those who abuse it. A "murdering children section"? That's pretty out there.

Well tread carefully. You registered here recently. Just be aware that some have posted anti Islamic/anti Muslim rants here that got them in real trouble with Charles, due to old history of a lot of that here in the old days. I just say this as a person that tries to follow the rules out of respect to Charles and what he gives us here.

All I'm doing is asking, just requesting us to stop short of that point of using cherry picked passages to disrespect a religion, rather than those who abuse it. A "murdering children section"? That's pretty out there.

Well, if you're threatening me with a banning, go for it. However, I don't understand the problem with quoting the bible when talking about it.

Most people just ignore the ugly stuff, but if you ask any evangelical about the bible you'll be told that it's the unerring, divinely inspired word of god. So, that being the case, it's all fair game. People who never bother to actually read it might even learn something they never heard in Sunday school.

The measure of the 'health' of believers is not so much they believe but rather how they behave.

Same as everybody else.

I shouldn't have replied to this friend of my brother. Now he's asking me to cite any unfactual post at Jihad Watch or Religion of Peace. I have no idea who this is, just that he replied to an anti-gun comment (and a mild one at that) that my brother made.

This shooting didn't happen because of religion. It didn't happen in spite of religion. Religion has fuck-all to do with the shooting.

What is annoying is the level that people interject religion. The assholes Fischer and Huckabee are doing that, and many, many, many other people agree with them. They form a large voting block in this country. It really is something that's a concern to our society. We have a problem with radical christianity in the US.

The problem is that radical Christianity uses the same text as nice-nice-door-neighbor Christianity. And while nice-next-door-Christians either mitigate the text or ignore it when it contains awful stuff, the radical Christians use it to justify terrible things.

They also use stuff that doesn't appear in the bible at all, though, like abortion, and justify murder with that. The problem is not the Bible. You are correct in that.

But we really, really need to deal with the problem of radical Christianity, and i think it's up to the moderate Christians to do so, both ethically and practically.

I want to have a kid in a year. This is the world I'm going to bring that kid into. One where people just massacre each other, in the country with one of the highest standards of living that's ever been seen.

It gives me pause, it really does. To throw an innocent into this world really is an ambivalent thing.

I want to have a kid in a year. This is the world I'm going to bring that kid into. One where people just massacre each other, in the country with one of the highest standards of living that's ever been seen.

It gives me pause, it really does. To throw an innocent into this world really is an ambivalent thing.

That is way over the line. Destro is an obvious and often spectacularly poor attention-seeking shit-stirrer, but he hasn't said anything close to what Geller has or done what she's done.

"Murdering children section". When I saw that I was instantly reminded of how Pammy looks at Islam. It's a page out of her playbook, if not the worst page. Sorry, I'm not backing up an inch on my thought we should refrain. Huck and fisher are not enough reason to go there. About 2 billion Christians don't deserve that kind of approach to their religion or it's bible. Nor do the millions of Jewish people.

Well tread carefully. You registered here recently. Just be aware that some have posted anti Islamic/anti Muslim rants here that got them in real trouble with Charles, due to old history of a lot of that here in the old days. I just say this as a person that tries to follow the rules out of respect to Charles and what he gives us here.

All I'm doing is asking, just requesting us to stop short of that point of using cherry picked passages to disrespect a religion, rather than those who abuse it. A "murdering children section"? That's pretty out there.

Why is a "murdering children" section of Bible quotes out there, if the quotes are accurate?

Fundamentalist bible-thumping political activists are obnoxious, loud, and frequently go after separation of church and state to try to institute a theocracy in support of their twisted version of god. Therefore, it is pretty much always open season on Biblical literalism, as far as I'm concerned.

FOX news was talking about staffing schools with armed guards. Teachers are too expensive, but armed guards seem like a good solution to these assholes.

Pointless and perhaps even dangerous to have a minimum wage barely trained armed rent-a-cop at the school. The shooter will always have the advantage of surprise, the only thing that would happen is that the guard would end up being the first one shot.

Not like he can be on hair trigger alert all day with one hand on his gun and his holster strap off ready for a quick draw.

All Pinellas County schools have at least one police officer stationed there during school hours, the large high schools have two or three. Again it might be easy for someone to get the drop on the police officer but in a large school you can't be sure where he is at any time. Plus at least the officer has adequate training for a shooting event if it comes to it.

I shouldn't have replied to this friend of my brother. Now he's asking me to cite any unfactual post at Jihad Watch or Religion of Peace. I have no idea who this is, just that he replied to an anti-gun comment (and a mild one at that) that my brother made.

wow. ok. Current top post is at Jihad watch is that the incoming Texas curriculum is a "severely whitewashed Islam curriculum". Why? Well, it allegedly - according to Spencer who cites the WND - teaches that "Allah is the Almighty God." Oh, and "the Boston Tea Party is a terrorist attack on par with the 9/11 attack."

Really? In TEXAS, where the open material is being condemned for being fundamentalist CHRISTIAN?

But we really, really need to deal with the problem of radical Christianity, and i think it's up to the moderate Christians to do so, both ethically and practically.

I agree & I try. I don't think enough people in America, though, understand just how radical & dangerous people like Huck & company are because he hides it in his "aw, shucks" manner & wraps his warped theocratic non-sense in stuff that sounds much more normal.

I want to have a kid in a year. This is the world I'm going to bring that kid into. One where people just massacre each other, in the country with one of the highest standards of living that's ever been seen.

It gives me pause, it really does. To throw an innocent into this world really is an ambivalent thing.

I don't regret not having kids, but I do want more kids to be born into this world, and I want them raised by people like you and your wife. The fact that it gives you pause is just more evidence that you're one of the people who should do it. No guarantees of the outcome, but that's life.

I have another niece on the way. I'll keep trying to make this a better place.

But think of the new job growth- fashion the program in the manner of Homeland Security and the Transportation Security Administrations and...
slap sap SLAP
Ok, I'm awake now- dozed off and nightmares...

You've got to be able to deal with the fact that those words are in the Bible. Muslims have to deal with the fact those words are in the Koran. It's reality. It's also reality there's not a damn thing in there about abortion, except a little bit in the OT that basically shows they didn't believe a zygote was the same thing as a person, but the majority of Christians somehow think there's a theological basis for banning abortion. I completely accept Christians are not robots programmed by the Bible, and I don't think that site is in any way making that claim. On the other hand, much of what is said about Muslims by Geller literally is that they are consumed by Islam in a fanatical way that makes them follow every bloodiest instruction they can find in any haddith. On the other hand, the author of the "Evil Bible" webpage has this to say:

I know that most Christians believe that God is a good and loving god, and wants people to do good things. I believe that most people want to do good things and behave morally. I also believe that many Christians haven’t really read the Bible, or just read certain passages in church. This is understandable, as the Bible is hard to read due to its archaic language and obscure references. Also many priests and preachers don’t like to read certain passages in the Bible because they present a message of hate not love.

He is completely acknowledging that most Christianity as practiced selectively ignores these passages precisely because they don't like them and represent their values.

“Gun control supporters have the blood of little children on their hands. Federal and state laws combined to insure that no teacher, no administrator, no adult had a gun at the Newtown school where the children were murdered. This tragedy underscores the urgency of getting rid of gun bans in school zones. The only thing accomplished by gun free zones is to insure that mass murderers can slay more before they are finally confronted by someone with a gun.”

Pointless and perhaps even dangerous to have a minimum wage barely trained armed rent-a-cop at the school. The shooter will always have the advantage of surprise, the only thing that would happen is that the guard would end up being the first one shot.

Not like he can be on hair trigger alert all day with one hand on his gun and his holster strap off ready for a quick draw.

All Pinellas County schools have at least one police officer stationed there during school hours, the large high schools have two or three. Again it might be easy for someone to get the drop on the police officer but in a large school you can't be sure where he is at any time. Plus at least the officer has adequate training for a shooting event if it comes to it.

One of my best friends is a "rent-a-cop." I really think it is one of the most unfairly stereotyped and vilified occupations in the country, thanks to what amounts to a hate campaign by thoughtless and ignorant Hollywood writers. Paul Blatt: Mall Cop is a work of fiction, and a stupid at that, but it seems to be the standard for public perception. Real people are mocked, assaulted, and spat upon because of these misperceptions and the offenders are often amazed to find themselves beaten to a pulp and thrown in jail for acting on them. Standards vary, but here in Texas, private security officers are licensed by the state police and trained and tested under police supervision. I don't know of any security company that pays minimum wage, and certainly not for armed officers. They have the same protection from threats or attacks that publicly-employed police officers do: 10 years in prison for assaulting one, a year for a terroristic threat. "He was just a rent-a-cop" is likely to earn a serious attitude correction from the "real cops." Stories of bad blood between the two are bullshit, the cops will respond in a hurry and take decisive action if there is a threat against a uniformed private officer.
It isn't really an issue though: A public school could never, ever hire such officers, the stereotypes are just too strong, especially among the young.

Most people are decent and caring. The world would not work at all if this were not true. And if you bring up your children to be loving human beings - it is very possible to do - then you will have made the world better, and permanently so, because the love we cause lives on after us.

Our response to this needs to be broad-based and honest. Gun control should be on the table but so should mental health and fundamental cultural issues.
Some long-standing assumptions need to be re-examined. For example, should the president change the policy of not directly addressing the crazed gun culture? Will he only help the standing of Wayne LaPierre, or Alex Jones for that matter, by calling them liars in public? Will it really only increase their credibility and the size of their audience? I really think this assumption should be re-examined. Our objective is not to keep these creeps as obscure as possible, it should be to shine the light on them like the cockroaches they are. As it is, few outside their immediate constituencies and their active opponents know about them. Yet they have real influence, they and swarms of kooks like them are a major reason we can't have real action on some important issues.
To take another example, for years I have heard that exposing the John Birch Society will only help them by making more people aware of them. This somehow assumes that awareness is more likely than not to equate to agreement. I reject that. If more people knew about JBS, there would be more recognition of their termite like influence on things like local school boards and GOP affiliates.
The kooks are here, they have millions of followers. They won't go away if "real" leaders and thinkers just continue to ignore and dismiss them.

I left for a bit and didn't see the response Destro had to de-constructing his view of Europe. I'll say this. As a Muslim, I feel much safer in the US than almost anywhere in Europe, save Scandinavia.

In addition, the raging hemorrhoid doesn't seem to realize one can change their politics on single issues if a certain event is heavy enough. Yes, I am now in favor of stricter gun laws. At one point, I was Pro-Life as well, but shifted on that too. And on guns, I'm wanting the more stringent background checks and application process for gun owners, along with restrictions on ammo.

We need some "Nixon to China" or "Sadat to Jerusalem" level outside-the-box thinking on this. Maybe Obama should personally challenge Alex Jones, Wayne LaPierre, and Rush Limbaugh to a public debate, individually or all at once. All at once would be more fun, but the result would be the same in any case: Nutcase idiots humiliated for their refusal to participate or, better yet, exposed as jibbering frauds in front of a national audience.
The "adult" GOP would object, of course, on the grounds that these people are insignificant gadflies. That lie could be quickly exposed with poll results and concrete examples of their influence.

This shooting didn't happen because of religion. It didn't happen in spite of religion. Religion has fuck-all to do with the shooting.

What is annoying is the level that people interject religion. The assholes Fischer and Huckabee are doing that, and many, many, many other people agree with them. They form a large voting block in this country. It really is something that's a concern to our society. We have a problem with radical christianity in the US.

The problem is that radical Christianity uses the same text as nice-nice-door-neighbor Christianity. And while nice-next-door-Christians either mitigate the text or ignore it when it contains awful stuff, the radical Christians use it to justify terrible things.

They also use stuff that doesn't appear in the bible at all, though, like abortion, and justify murder with that. The problem is not the Bible. You are correct in that.

But we really, really need to deal with the problem of radical Christianity, and i think it's up to the moderate Christians to do so, both ethically and practically.

There is NO reason for an ordinary citizen to own a weapon that can fire SIX fucking bullets per second.

This country has been taken over by crazies!

Uhm, to own a firearm that can actually fire that fast you have to pay between $5,000 & $100,000 for the fully automatic weapon, pay a $200 excise tax, have the approval of your local chief of police and have an ATF form approved by the federal government before you can take possession of that registered fully automatic firearm. That has been the case since 1934.

No semi-automatic that you can buy without going through those steps can fire that fast.

On top of that, I can fire a Lee-Enfield bolt action rifle at the speed of that legal semi-auto though it does only have a 10 round magazine.

Yeah, there are a whole lot of crazies out there but we are not helped by misunderstanding the details of these things. Simply freaking out only helps the NRA & others spread FUD.

We need some "Nixon to China" or "Sadat to Jerusalem" level outside-the-box thinking on this.

Very much agreed.

Maybe Obama should personally challenge Alex Jones, Wayne LaPierre, and Rush Limbaugh to a public debate, individually or all at once. All at once would be more fun, but the result would be the same in any case: Nutcase idiots humiliated for their refusal to participate or, better yet, exposed as jibbering frauds in front of a national audience.
The "adult" GOP would object, of course, on the grounds that these people are insignificant gadflies. That lie could be quickly exposed with poll results and concrete examples of their influence.

Very much no.
I agree that we do need to update common sense gun control issues, public mental health and a whole host of other problems. I think most people would agree with this. However, in situations like this we see the same old tired mantras. Activists wheel out their pet issues to accuse and assign blame (atheism, religion, wingnuts, moonbats, gun control, not enough guns, war on terror, big government, etc) in the hopes that some emotional response will sweep the country. It's not going to happen. Notice how everybody today is blaming the same people they were blaming yesterday? It's also the same people they'll be blaming for whatever goes wrong tomorrow. The NRA and GOP are a problem but they are not the problem. The real problem is our tendency towards easy answers the the desire to satisfy our emotional need to feed our preconceived pet causes. Nobody's thinking "outside the box", the boxes are the problem.

Uhm, to own a firearm that can actually fire that fast you have to pay between $5,000 & $100,000 for the fully automatic weapon, pay a $200 excise tax, have the approval of your local chief of police and have an ATF form approved by the federal government before you can take possession of that registered fully automatic firearm. That has been the case since 1934.

No semi-automatic that you can buy without going through those steps can fire that fast.

On top of that, I can fire a Lee-Enfield bolt action rifle at the speed of that legal semi-auto though it does only have a 10 round magazine.

Yeah, there are a whole lot of crazies out there but we are not helped by misunderstanding the details of these things. Simply freaking out only helps the NRA & others spread FUD.

Does that make it moral in your mind?

This country has gone crazy, religious nuts claiming to know the mind of god, dumb shits like you claiming second amendment rights to own weapons of mass destruction.

I trimmed tomato plants in the greenhouse this afternoon in a hail storm. Very satisfying. Outside, my Russian Bananas look like they're going to produce a second crop this year. I'll probably start digging them up in a few weeks.

Holy fucking shit. I was on the mountain skiing today and saw a facebook post about the shooting. I'm glad I wasn't at home otherwise I'd be sick from the coverage. I don't know what to say. What is there to say? You can't say anything. Gun rights people are already saying "Now is not the time to talk about gun control." WHEN IS THE RIGHT FUCKING TIME TO TALK ABOUT GUN CONTROL? I grew up with guns. I'm an avid hunter. My family still hunts. I posted a picture of my nephew's boar he shot last weekend here on LGF the other day. I'm not anti-gun. I am, however, anti-FUCKING EIGHTEEN CHILDREN AND NINE ADULTS GETTING KILLED IN A SCHOOL...we just had a shooting in a shopping mall in Oregon a few days ago...a few days before that, an NFL player kills his girlfriend and then himself. Each time wasn't "the right time" to start talking about gun control. What? Are gun advocates waiting for someone to save twenty seven people's lives by shooting them with an assault rifle? Give me a fucking break.

Oh hell, not at all. Not My Place. Not My Blog. That was an honest heads up about LGF and how someone unaware of the history here might misstep. Nothing more than that. Just an honest friendly minded heads up.

Good night Lizards. As for Todays tragedy , well let's say I am dismayed, but not surprised that it happened. The fear mongering over the last 20+ years has lead us to this and I fear much worse is to come.

Holy fucking shit. I was on the mountain skiing today and saw a facebook post about the shooting. I'm glad I wasn't at home otherwise I'd be sick from the coverage. I don't know what to say. What is there to say? You can't say anything. Gun rights people are already saying "Now is not the time to talk about gun control." WHEN IS THE RIGHT FUCKING TIME TO TALK ABOUT GUN CONTROL? I grew up with guns. I'm an avid hunter. My family still hunts. I posted a picture of my nephew's boar he shot last weekend here on LGF the other day. I'm not anti-gun. I am, however, anti-FUCKING EIGHTEEN CHILDREN AND NINE ADULTS GETTING KILLED IN A SCHOOL...we just had a shooting in a shopping mall in Oregon a few days ago...a few days before that, an NFL player kills his girlfriend and then himself. Each time wasn't "the right time" to start talking about gun control. What? Are gun advocates waiting for someone to save twenty seven people's lives by shooting them with an assault rifle? Give me a fucking break.

There is NO reason for an ordinary citizen to own a weapon that can fire SIX fucking bullets per second.

This country has been taken over by crazies!

I don't think the military (ANY military) should be allowed to have high speed weapons. Put everybody back on guns that require a pump, bolt, or lever at the least. Then someone might be able to throw a fucking chair/stapler/book/solid object at the asshole between rounds.

Hmmm, why should civilians be prohibited from owning .50 cal rifles?
Why stop at .50 cal? Why not ban the .577 Tyrranosaur, or the .600 Nitro Express?
How about a .460 Weatherby, .408 CheyTac or .338 Lapua?
7.62 or 5.56 NATO rifles a no- go?
.30-06 has laid a lot of enemy soldiers low, should civilians own a .30-06?
What criteria determines what a civilian can own/use?

Oh, jesus fucking christ...I'm already crying. In the patrol room the other ski patrollers were saying, "How do you respond to and triage a mass casualty like that? Black tag, black tag, black tag..." I corrected him and said, "No. It's black tag, black tag, vomit, black tag, vomit..." He agreed. As first responders to recreational accidents, we see some unsettling shit - someone who can't feel or move their legs after a bad fall, someone with a femur sticking out of their ski pants with blood everywhere...not often, thankfully, but it happens - this goes beyond comprehension as far as how one deals with it from a rescue/responder perspective.

Oh hell, not at all. Not My Place. Not My Blog. That was an honest heads up about LGF and how someone unaware of the history here might misstep. Nothing more than that. Just an honest friendly minded heads up.

Hmmm, why should civilians be prohibited from owning .50 cal rifles?
Why stop at .50 cal? Why not ban the .577 Tyrranosaur, or the .600 Nitro Express?
How about a .460 Weatherby, .408 CheyTac or .338 Lapua?
7.62 or 5.56 NATO rifles a no- go?
.30-06 has laid a lot of enemy soldiers low, should civilians own a .30-06?
What criteria determines what a civilian can own/use?

Quite a number of countries don't allow civilians to own weapons chambered for whatever their military uses.

The problem in this case appears to have been a kid getting control of his mom's guns. It's hard to prevent something like that, but it is very possible I think to require anyone with a gun to demonstrate that they have it secured and no one but them can get to it.

If you just have your handgun in your nightstand and your bullets in your closet, guess what, your kids can figure that shit out. You do that, you shouldn't be allowed to have a gun.

There's a point when you shouldn't allowing civilians to have a certain caliber.

50 cals are used as Anti-Material guns. They can punch through light armored vehicles, and depending on the gun, from quite a distance. Don't think I am insane for say they may need heavy restrictions and/or banning from civilians.

There's a point when you shouldn't allowing civilians to have a certain caliber.

50 cals are used as Anti-Material guns. They can punch through light armored vehicles, and depending on the gun, from quite a distance. Don't think I am insane for say they may need heavy restrictions and/or banning from civilians.

Again, there are many centerfire rifles which will penetrate an inch of steel, or other light armor, albeit at shorter distances than a .50 Browning.
What criteria should be used in a ban?

As William Barnett- Lewis pointed out: "Quite a number of countries don't allow civilians to own weapons chambered for whatever their military uses."

You can be sure that those countries implemented the ban with an eye to stopping the populace from using those guns against the government.

The problem in this case appears to have been a kid getting control of his mom's guns.

The 'kid' was 20 years old. That's an adult. I know you weren't trying to be dismissive, but this isn't the time for explaining the behavior. This is the time for absorbing what has just happened, trying to get our own thoughts collected on the matter, and grieving for the victims and their families. Beyond that, I could give a flying fuck what this case appears to be.

The 'kid' was 20 years old. That's an adult. I know you weren't trying to be dismissive, but this isn't the time for explaining the behavior.

I wasn't in the least bit trying to 'explain the behavior'.

It'd take a hell of a lot more restrictive gun control than we have now to keep that mother from owning those guns. We'd have to basically limit gun ownership to those who can prove a need-- and maybe not even then.

What we can do is say that she obviously didn't have the guns well-secured, so we could regulate that, and make sure that gun owners secure their weapons, and if they don't, take the guns away. Because a lot of murders-- like this one-- are committed by people using someone else's guns.

...In America alone, gun massacres, most often of children, happen with hideous regularity, and they happen with hideous regularity because guns are hideously and regularly available.

The people who fight and lobby and legislate to make guns regularly available are complicit in the murder of those children. They have made a clear moral choice: that the comfort and emotional reassurance they take from the possession of guns, placed in the balance even against the routine murder of innocent children, is of supreme value. Whatever satisfaction gun owners take from their guns—we know for certain that there is no prudential value in them—is more important than children’s lives. Give them credit: life is making moral choices, and that’s a moral choice, clearly made.

It'd take a hell of a lot more restrictive gun control than we have now to keep that mother from owning those guns. We'd have to basically limit gun ownership to those who can prove a need-- and maybe not even then.

What we can do is say that she obviously didn't have the guns well-secured, so we could regulate that, and make sure that gun owners secure their weapons, and if they don't, take the guns away. Because a lot of murders-- like this one-- are committed by people using someone else's guns.

I don't think you're really reading my posts.

Yes, I was reacting to your calling him a 'kid'...Yes, he killed his mother...tragic. He should have felt guilty enough after that to kill himself. Going to the school where she worked however, goes way beyond 'getting mom's gun'...This is a time for sitting back and waiting for the information to come to the surface. Our armchair analyses are meaningless at this point. And that's my point.

Gun control? You can't even talk about limiting the size of ammo magazines without getting the crazies up in arms, and when the crazies speak the politicians listen.

Speaking of crazy, anybody know what Ted Nugent had to say today?

That's because any type of regulation is seen as a gateway to further restrictions and eventual loss of the right to bear arms. That's what will be spun out by the NRA to elicit more donations.

I already spoke to one of the gun-nutters in my family. They heard about this story and the first fucking thing out of their mouth; "great, now they're going to try to ban more guns." Not a damn thing about those kids. It's always something else. It's the same thing with most other people. They have a massive list of excuses and they're going to trot out each one, especially since he's white. If it was any other ethnic group, they wouldn't get the 'excuse treatment,' but since he's white, well, video games, atheism, drugs, etc. etc.

I would like preempt a nut losing his damn mind and deciding to start a one-man war against the neighbors by shelling homes.

Shells are explosives, destructive devices, i.e. already illegal. Your concern is kind of ridiculous. An elite full 12 man naval gun crew might be able to fire their 24 pounder three times in five minutes.

Notwithstanding your fears of the highly improbable, handguns are the problem.

He's her kid. Whatever, dude. Her child. The word is hardly important.

.Yes, he killed his mother...tragic. He should have felt guilty enough after that to kill himself. Going to the school where she worked however, goes way beyond 'getting mom's gun'...This is a time for sitting back and waiting for the information to come to the surface. Our armchair analyses are meaningless at this point. And that's my point.

No freaking clue what you're talking about. I'm saying people with guns should be responsible for where those guns are at any time, and that we shouldn't let people have guns that can't keep them safe. Have no clue how that is 'armchair analysis.'.

Try listening to his show for even just a half-hour: 2/3rds of the time it'll be nothing but advertising to survivalist product producrers. And when he actually does speak, most of the stuff he claims is the truth ('cuz you can look it up on Google and see its high page-rank) is nothing more than taking one phrase of a report/study and amplifying the outrageous part of the precis when in reality the thing they're hot-and-bothered about isn't even in play.

Worse still is that people will believe it. As Idreis Shah stated in "Seeker After Truth" (pg. 111:112):

People really are as stupid as the Sufi's make out. Soceity works as well as it does because not everyone is stupid all the time.

...

And may I ask you a question? If people were not as stupid as they are made out to be, would they tolerate the kinds of individuals and organzations which exploit them? Who votes for the lying and improbable politiciians, who, remember, actually rule over so many of us?

I want to have a kid in a year. This is the world I'm going to bring that kid into. One where people just massacre each other, in the country with one of the highest standards of living that's ever been seen.

It gives me pause, it really does. To throw an innocent into this world really is an ambivalent thing.

Don't NOT have one just because of this - maybe YOUR child will help fix things!

(Oh, & a word to all those trying to trash the "Old Testament": never read Torah without Talmud. It generally ends up leading to the sort of crap I've sen here tonight.)

And I'm really glad to report that all that work redesigning the database code for the new servers paid off. Sailed through all the surges without even slowing down as far as I could tell. No DB connection errors at all.

This is the LGF Pages posting bookmarklet. To use it, drag this button to your browser's bookmark bar, and title it 'LGF Pages' (or whatever you like). Then browse to a site you want to post, select some text on the page to use for a quote, click the bookmarklet, and the Pages posting window will appear with the title, text, and any embedded video or audio files already filled in, ready to go.

Or... you can just click this button to open the Pages posting window right away.

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