A: Okay, I am the third of six children, five of whom lived to adulthood,
four or whom are still alive. My mother is alive also. I don't know, my childhood
was one that I usually try to forget, it was one that was not too pleasant.
As far as interest and development, I don't know, I guess it could be pretty
well summed up, i guess my dad summed it up pretty carefully one time when he
said "I had five children, raised four and one grew up." If that tells you anything
about my development well that's about that. I was born in Forsyth County, North
Carolina, grew up in Yadkin County, North Carolina. My mother and dad both worked
at R.J. Reynolds Tobacco Company. I graduated from elementary school at Forbush
Elementary School in Yadkin County, went to my first year of high school at
Yadkinville High School and then finished high school at Clemmons High School.
Our family characteristics were I suppose one more of a working class people.
We, speaking of the entire family, we never seemed to get into very much trouble.
To my knowledge, neither one of my brothers, nor my sisters, nor I, nor my parents,
have ever spent a day in jail. Which is pretty good for growing up under the
smoke of whiskey stills. But I'd say that's about it for the characteristics.

Q: Would you discuss your college education and preparation for entering
the field of teaching? How many years did you serve as a teacher?, principal,
etc.?

A: Okay, my college education; I was out of high school eleven years before
going to college. The earliest memory that I have of school was, I hated it.
The last memory I have of high school, I hated it. I'm serious. I was a teacher's
scourge. There is no question that if I were in school today, I would be in
a Willie M. class or something of that nature, if they would have me in that.
Uh, but I was literally a teacher's scourge and when I graduated from high school,
I intentionally walked out the front door of the high school, walked out to
the street, incidentally that old building is now Edgar B. Furniture Company
in Clemmons, and I walked out the street, turned around and looked back at that
building and said if I never go back to school again, it will be a day too early.
I dropped out of school in the tenth grade, went back the next fall though and
they endured me for two more years. But it seemed that everything I did when
I got out of college, it seemed that everything I did I taught. I got into teaching
everything. There was a little conflict going on then in Korea about that time
and I, uh, and having no desire to go to Korea, uh, some friends and I joined
the National Guard. Immediately, I started teaching, teaching in the National
Guard. And I'm going to tell you one war story on that one. We were in camp
one summer and we had a four hour class the next morning on tactic. The sergeant
that was supposed to teach that class was in Winston-Salem, North Carolina and
we were in Fort McClellan, Alabama. The company commander called me about nine
o-clock the night before, we were out in the field and he called me and said
I want you to teach that class in the morning. I said, "I'm not prepared". And
he said, "Yes, I know, so we'll let you have a gas lantern". I said, "Don't
want the gas lantern, I'm tired and I'm ready to go to bed." He said, "It's
gonna be a four hour class." I said, "Yeah, your told me. " He said" And the
battalion commander is going to be there to inspect the class and whatever the
battalion commander decides from inspecting these classes is going to determine
how classes will be taught for the next years in our company. " Well, I still
didn't take the gas lantern. I went on to bed. I got up earlier the next morning,
looked through the manual for a minute, went out and taught the class. The battalion
did inspect the class, well the battalion commander and his staff inspected
the class. The immediate report on that was that it was the best class that
was ever taught in the battalion. The captain said, "I'll think I'll just kill
you." I said, "Don't blame you." But, everything I did turned to teaching. I
was is sales, it turned to teaching. Everything I did, it turned to teaching.
So I said, well, and by this time, I had begun to see the necessity of an education.
So, eleven years after high school, I decided to go to college. And I entered
college with only one goal in mind, and that was to learn everything I could
while there, knowing that I would have to work and pay my own way through college.
Uh, I did it and I came out with the teaching certificate. I taught seven years.
I taught in two different districts in Texas and one in Long Island, New York.
We began in Texas, adopted a child, and in order to cover some tracks, we moved
to New York, then we moved back to Texas where I completed the Master's Degree.
I suppose the reason I wanted to enter the principalship was because I felt
that I could do something for the school. My last three years of teaching were
as a fifth-grade teacher in a school that served military students. It was a
public school, but served totally air force personnel. We had about a forty-five
percent turnover of students per year. But in the three years that I taught
there, the principal said I became the most requested teacher to ever had taught
in that school. I taught in that school until I completed the Master's, then
went to New Mexico as a principal. We stayed there one year and then I moved
to Mt. Airy. But I felt that I could do something for a school because I felt
that many times that a school, as a school, did not have a particular direction
that the school, the entire school knew where it was going. And I very firmly
believe that we must know who we are, where we are going and how we're going
to get there. If there are things, there are minor inconveniences, there are
minor detours that come up, but I firmly believe that you must never lose sight
of who you are, where your going and how your going to get there. And I think
that part of the problem now is that we don't know where we're going and we
just try to do whatever is popular at the time. I don't think that overall that
that will get the job done. It is said that the difference between a genius
and an ordinary person is that the genius shoots at a target that nobody else
sees. You say, well but that's no problem, anybody can say they see a target
out there, but the genius hits it. And that's what sets him apart as a genius.
Am I a genius? By no means, by no means. But I did have a direction of where
I wanted to go as a teacher, and I went there. The parents apparently appreciated
it. As a principal I had that same direction of where we wanted to go and the
apparently, the parents appreciated it.

Q: Would you describe you personal philosophy of education. How did it
evolve over the years?

A: My personal philosophy of education is that a child must understand that
it is not MY education, but HIS. That what he is learning is for his benefit,
not mine. My philosophy of education is helping that child to understand that
this is going to help him to get where he wants to go and where he needs to
be. And it is really not going to make any difference to me personally, if someone
takes all kinds of advantages of him in later life. I mean, that's not costing
me anything personally. Of course, it grieves me to think that some students
I had is in that position. But to help a student understand that it is his education.
To help a teacher understand it is the child's education and to help the teacher
to educate that child the way that the child needs to go. And I think that's
pretty well how it has evolved over the years is seeing that and seeing where
education would lead people. My high school years, my early education was a
total farce. And I wish that all of my teachers were lined up right here now
to where I could tell them I'm sorry for the way that I acted as a student.
But of course, as you know, that's impossible. But it was only in later years
when I realized what education was and what it was for. And for someone that
came through the rough, I did. So I understand that from, from that particular
child's point of view. To lay out a particular philosophy, I cannot. But to
help, but to help a person meet their goals. To me education is a tool. Uh,
okay, I am a high school dropout, but I also have three college degrees. But
I consider my college degrees nothing more than a wrench to a mechanic, a hammer
to a carpenter. It's simply a tool with to better do the job.

Q: What experiences/events in your professional life influenced your management
philosophy? Please discuss these events.

A: Again I think children wandering. And when I say wandering, I mean they're
just wandering about aimlessly, spending their time, going nowhere, not knowing
where they're going or why they're going. And I think that influenced my management
philosophy because people to do not respond to the same things. People respond
to different things and in different ways. So, in trying to uh, get them together,
to get students to understand, again, that this is for your benefit that we're
doing this. To discuss the events, to tell you a war story, another war story,
I had a student in the fifth grade and I usually would start the class, or start
my class at the beginning of the year by simply trying to get acquainted with
the students a little bit and the students get acquainted with me. I had this
one little guy, a little red-headed guy. And I asked if any of them had ever
had a paddling in school. When I said that, he really "hee-hawed". I said, :"Had
you ever had a paddling?" He said, "Have I ever had a paddling?" I said, "How
many?" He said, "Who knows?" I said, "What for?" He said, "Who knows?" And I
said, "Okay", I said, "But you're aren't going to get any paddlings now. I said,
" Your not going to get any paddlings this year." He did laugh when I said that.
So, but we went on and before Thanksgiving, I met his mother and dad in a department
store one evening and his mother looked me cold in the eye and said, "What have
you done to my son?" Well you name it and I had done it, except paddling. So
in an effort to buy a little time to try to throw the lady off track or to give
her an answer or something, I said, "What are you talking about?" She said,
"He loves school, how come?" She said, "I have turned the bed over on him, I
have thrown him out of the house, I have poured water on him, I have done everything
in the book to get him to go to school in the morning" Said, 'Now he's turning
the bed over on us, he's pouring water on us, he's saying "Get-up, we get to
go to school today." What have you done to my son?' Of course you know what
happened to his grades. It was nothing more than we just simply took an interest
in him and tried to find out and show him this education is for you, its not
for me. You don't have to do this because I want you to do it --If that's the
only reason you're gonna do it, because I want you to do it, then don't bother.
Uh, and I think that, that this kind of a thing helped me in my management philosophy,
not to have a management philosophy, you know a strict management philosophy,
but rather to do what the student needed.

Q: What techniques did you use to create a successful climate for learning?
Would you describe successful and any unsuccessful experiments in building climate
in which you were involved?

A: Okay, I think that the successful climate goes along pretty well with what
I have said earlier, in earlier answers to questions. I think that, of course,
Patrick was one of my successes, the little red-headed guy I was telling you
about. Uh, I think that one of my more unsuccessful experiments was also in
that same school with a fifth grade girl that I was never able to get that child
to really do anything in the school,. She just, in fact the principal came to
me one day and said, "She hates school" and I said, "Yeah I know." But I was
never able to get that student, regardless of what I did, I was never able to
get that student to where she appreciated anything about school at all. I do
know that her mother and daddy attended a party every night, and if there wasn't
one somewhere where they could attend party, they'd have one. So her mother
and daddy attended a party every night, the child was there at the party. She
would come to school the next day and of course you know pretty well the condition
she was in. Kind of a humorous ending to that particular story. Toward the end
of the school year, her daddy was walking down the street and suddenly he was
shot. He was just walking down the street and suddenly he was shot. They found
out his wife did it. So they took her to court later on and, uh. he came in
and said, " Aww, she's a pretty good ol' girl, said, she said if I wouldn't
prosecute her, that she'd go back to her Mama in Alabama, so just let her go
back to Alabama, just forget about the shooting." So, I don't know if, uh, but
of course all of that enters into what the child was. But, regardless of what
I did, I was never able to interest that child in school. I will have to say
I was a total washout on that one.

Q: What kinds of things do teachers expect principals to be able to do?
Describe your views on what it takes to be an effective principal, describing
the personal and professional characteristics of the "good principal".

A: I think that teachers expect their principal to know where they're going--to
tell them where they're going and to help them get there. I think that teachers
want principals to help them to get there, to show them how to get there and
to give the teacher credit for getting there. They expect the principal to point
the way and then step aside and let teachers have the credit for it. And that's
as it should be, because they are the ones that deserve the credit. And the
principal is to be a defender of the teachers. It was said in a principal's
meeting one time, the superintendent told the, uh, principals, said "I will
always support you when you're right." The principals looked at him and said,
"We don't need your support when we're right." Says, " When we're wrong is when
we need your support." And that is a correct statement. Teachers have to know
that the principal will defend them. Now the teacher and the principal may have
something to discuss later, but first off the teacher has to know that the principal
will defend them. Again I think the principal needs to know who he is, where's
he's going and how he's going to get there and communicate that to the teachers.
And I think that the teachers expect that and have a right to expect that. I
usually tried to tell the teachers that I would give them a few things, that
I would require a few things. I would give them students to teach, a place to
teach, the materials with which to teach and then I would require that they
taught. The teachers seemed to appreciate that. And after retirement, a teacher
that had taught with me for many years, for me for many years came up to me
and said, " The greatest thing you ever did for your teachers was you treated
us as if we had sense enough to teach."

Q: As a follow-up question, would you describe the expectations, both professional
and personal, that were placed upon principals by their employers and the community
during your period of employment. How do these expectations differ from today's
situation?

A: Oh I think I that saw the changing situation in the changing of schools
and the changing of superintendents and things of this nature. But again I think
it comes back to knowing who you are, where you're going and how you're going
to get there. And if you are right, then it doesn't--okay your superintendent
may be a help, he may be a hinderance, the community may be a help, it may be
a hinderance. But you work with the community, you work within the mores of
the community, you work with the people of the community, you work with your
school personnel and with your administration and if what you're doing what's
right, well then somebody can come up and say, "I don't like the way your doing
it", but they have to say, "I like what you're doing". So, uh, I don't think,
that uh, I don't really think that who the superintendent makes much difference.
Pretty brazen statement isn't it?

Q: A great deal of attention has been given to the topic of personal leadership
in recent years. Please discuss your approach to leadership and describe some
techniques which worked for you and an incident in which your approach failed.

A: Again I think that the leadership has to be that the personal leadership
from the principal regarding the teachers has to be somewhat behind the scenes.
I think your teachers have to be projected as "first-out". I think that your,
uh, I think that parents have to come to appreciate teachers because the teachers
are the ones who are dealing with their child all of the time. I think it is
important to project to teachers that there is no parent that cares at all what
a teacher themselves can do. But every parent has a vital interest in what they
can get their child to do. So consequently I think that the teacher has to be
projected as "first out"--that the principal's leadership for the teacher must
be in helping that teacher to direct their children, uh, to the desired goals.
But anytime that I could know that the teacher knows less about, for example
the sixth grade, than the principal, that sixth grade's in trouble. If the principal
knows more about the first grade than the first grade teachers, that first grade's
in trouble. But if anybody knows any more about the entire school than their
principal, than that school is in trouble. But I think that those teacher's
have to be projected as "first-out". They have to be held in esteem as being
"first-out:. I think the principal has to give them total support. I think that
they must know they have someone standing behind them that will not let them
fail. And I don't know if that particularly answers that question, but uh.....
Did that fail, Oh yes. Because there are some teachers that don't want you to,
or don't see it that particular way. They want you to day by day by day by day
tell them the steps to take, rather than charting their own course. Again as
the teacher stated, "You treated us as if we had sense enough to teach."

Q: There are those who argue that, more often than not, central office
policies hinder, rather than help, building level administrators in carrying
out their responsibilities. Would you give your views on this issue? If you
were king, what changes would you make in the typical system-wide organizational
arrangements as a way of improving administrative efficiency and effectiveness?

A: I would agree with the statement that often central offices do hinder more
than they help. I think it has been handed down. I think that the state department
started taking over central office responsibility, central office had to take
somebody's responsibility so they'd have some, so they took principal's. Well
what do principal's do?, he took the teachers, well where do the teacher's go?
And uh, yes I think the policies and uh, I think that often your central policies
do hinder rather than help. What kinds of changes would I make? I think that
the, uh, that my, as a principal that my first superintendent, uh, gave me excellent
information and he lived up to it. He said, " Welcome, we're glad to have you.
that We'll give all the help that we can. Good luck" And it was my school. From
there, it was my school. Uh, and when he transferred me at the end of that year,
the community almost lynched him. He, uh, but it was definitely my school and
his words to me was, uh, were "that if anyone had told me that they were going
to run that school for one entire year and not have one parent complain, he
said, I'd have laughed him plum out of the state. But you just did that." He
said, "How did you do it?" I said, "Don't know, didn't know I did it." And uh,
but, uh, I think that the central office again has to project to the principal
and he told me in no uncertain terms that "You will be held accountable for
how you run it. And held accountable to how I run it, I was. But, uh, I think
that, uh, I think that that's good information. And I think that often the central
office want to get muddled, or wants to muddle up and get into the internal
affairs of the school and the central office doesn't belong in the internal
affairs of the school. Let the school knows where you want it to be and then
require them to put it there.

Q: If you were advising a person who is considering an administrative job,
what would that advice be?

A: Know who you are, where you want to go and how to get there. That would
be it and don't try to hog the glory. But to let other people do the job, uh,
because there is no person big enough that they can do it all themselves. You
have to depend on other people. So depend on other people, let them know that
you depend on them, let them know what you want, let them know what you will
do to help them get there. But to know who you are, where you're going and how
to get there and then give them the glory for doing it.

Q: There are those who argue that the principal should be an instructional
leader, and those that suggest that, realistically speaking, this person must
be, above all, a good manager. Would you give your views on this issue and describe
your own style?

A: I think a principal must be an instructional leader, but that instructional
leader must be in the management phase of it because he again is not doing the
instruction. It is the faculty that is doing the instructing. Its the teachers
that are doing that. And I think that letting them know again where you want
to go and what you will do to help them get there. To, to let them have ownership.
To work with them and to set the goals and how to get there and so forth with
them. Uh, and I think, that....Did I do that? Well, I hope I did.

Q: Please discuss the way in which you learned to lead; that is, what procedures
or experiences you were involved in that contributed to your effectiveness,
and the contribution that professional graduate education made to your progress.

A: I think that my uh, graduate work, or my college work for that matter,
that I went into it with the understanding, I am here to learn. I questioned
my own, uh, okay my own values. I think that I had had a pretty clear sense
of what my values were for a long time, far before going into, uh, education.
But I think that my college work helped me to clarify those tremendously and
one, it helped me to question them. And I think that we have to know who we
are, but I think we have to know why we are too. I think that we have to have
a core of values, I know we have to have a core of values, but we have to question
those values and to make sure that those values are, and uh, that we know why
those values are what they are. Uh, it has been said for example that in my
mannered religion, do I have my own faith or do I have my parents faith? Am
I supporting my faith, am I supporting my parent's faith? And I think we have
to do that with our core values. Why do I have the core values that I have?
Have I questioned them? Are my values open to question? And I think that we
have to do that . Uh, and I think that the further I went inward, the more that
it caused me to question and to be, or to support my position because I had
examined that position and had come to the conclusion that this is the best
way.

Q: It has been said that good leaders encourage their subordinates and
peers by staging celebrations of their successes, no matter how small or insignificant.
To what extent did you engage in this practice during your tenure as principal,
and to what extent did it improve morale and organizational effectiveness?

A: A tremendously good statement. A statement that I wish I could say that
I did that all the time. I did not, or not nearly enough. I wish I could say
that I did that from day one. I could not say that. I wish I could. Uh, but,
a, I think that again, giving teachers the credit, uh, for what happens, to
let students to know this is the place to be, and parents to know this is the
place to be, teachers know this is the place to be. How do you do that? Certainly
not through taking the glory for yourself, but to, to celebrate with the students,
with the teachers their successes. And a tremendously good statement. One I
would encourage tremendously.

Q: As you view it, what characteristics are associated with the most effective
schools, and what features characterize less successful ones?

A: Those that know where they're going. I think that in education as a whole,
if we would simply answer, ask and answer the question, "What are we trying
to do?", we'd be far ahead. I think we have no clear idea of where we are going.
As Doctor Barker, who was the Assistant Superintendent of Public Instruction
in New Mexico put it and this one kindly rattled me because I think that he
helped send me in the right direction. He said, "Blessed is the man who knows
where he is going for he shall know when he gets there." And I think that that;s
the problem today. We don't know where we're going, what we are trying to do,
what are we trying to accomplish. I think that we don't know the answers to
those questions. I don't think we've asked those questions.

Q: Please discuss the way in which you were chosen for your first administrative
role, as well as any subsequent assignments.

A: The first one's a pretty good question. I had finished a Master's degree
in Abilene, Texas, I applied for a principal position simply because there was
one open and I had a good friend that taught in the Grants, New Mexico system.
I went to Grants, and when you get to Grants you're getting just about twelve
miles the other side of nowhere. Uh, and, they said that they would require
me to come to Grants for an interview, though I, uh, applied and so forth, they
said that they would require me, that they required all principals to come to
Grants for an interview. They didn't require teachers to come for interviews
before they got their position. But, uh, I went to Grants and, uh, was pleased
with what I saw, they were pleased, uh, with me. and so we negotiated the contract.
That was my first one. I moved then to Mt. Airy because I wanted to get back
closer home. I came here on my own initiate, I interviewed here on my own initiative
and I feel, that with my record, with the careful scrutiny of my record and
so forth, that really that I did win this position. Uh, I, I feel that the first
one that I was just the, a person in the right place at the right time. Here,
however, I feel that I, I earned this position. And ,uh, we've been here ever
since.

Q: Administrators presently spend a good deal of time complaining about
the amount of paper work and the bureaucratic complexity with which they are
forced to deal. Would you comment on the situation during your administrative
career and compare the problems you encountered with your perceptions of the
situation at this time?

A: I heard a principal talking about this one time and he said, "What paperwork?
What paperwork are you talking about?". He said, "Okay, you have the control,
or you have basically the control of all the paperwork that goes on in your
office. " Said. "What paperwork are you talking about?" And I think he's right.
I think that alot of times that we create things of this nature. Uh, so that
we won't have to do something else and then complain about it, but its of our
own creation. What paperwork are you talking about? The bureaucratic complexities--uh,
again, what are you talking about? But if you're running your school, the superintendent
comes, and again I say, I don't think it makes a whole lot of difference who
the superintendent is. Because if you are running your school properly, the
superintendent is not going to come up and say, "Fill out this paper and turn
in this form" and so forth and so on.

Q: Given the presence of administrative complexity, if there were three
areas of administration that you could change in order to improve the efficiency
and effectiveness of educational administration, what would they be?

A: I think that, uh, to put the principals back in charge of the schools.
Uh, as far as three areas, uh, to change; I think that principals should be
asked, not told. Again, the principal must be held accountable for how he runs
it, but again I think he must be given the latitude to run it. And as far as
changing and, then whatever is necessary would be changed then. I think that
a terrible thing to do is to leave principals out of the hiring process. I think
the hiring process is probably the most important process for the principal
to be involved in. Because he has to know that, and that person has to know
that they must work together. And if you have no confidence in me, if I have
no confidence in you, if neither of those situations exist, its going to be
bad for our school. So I think that the principal needs to be vitally, almost
"veto power" with the hiring process. But again, he must be held accountable
for what he's doing. So if you tell your principal, you select your, uh, you
select your person anyway, but you're going to be held accountable for what
you do. And then hold that principal accountable for the success or failure
of that, and of that school. But I think that the principal needs to become,
uh, the, uh , okay the headmaster of that school,. And he, of course, must understand
how to work with the people in order to accomplish that, because he is going
to account for it. But that's what needs to happen, rather than, uh, "Fill out
this form" and "Show me this how you punched, how you punched out this clock".

Q: Some writers recommend that principals adjust their leadership styles
to meet the individual needs of their staff. How do you feel about that idea
and to what extent did you practice individualized leadership?

A: I think that individualized leadership is necessary, but is necessary
to a point. I think that there has to be mutual cooperation. I think that there
is, that it is far more important that teachers and principals realize we're
working together in order to better perform. We're simply here to help each
other do a better job, rather than trying to, uh, okay; If I try to adjust to
your whims and you feel that you got to adjust to my whims, uh, depending on
which way the wind is blowing that day is what we're going to do. Again, I go
back to my overall premise; know who you are, where you're going and how you're
going to get there. And then you adjust, each of you adjust yourselves to, uh,
that. Yes, there are going to be days when I get up on the wrong side of the
bed. And there are going to be days when you get up on the wrong side of the
bed. And when that happens, that must be treated as a minor inconvenience and
you move on because we both know what the overall goal is. I think individualized
leadership is good, but then to kind of coin a phrase, individualized fellowship
is good. That should be in that too.

Q: Some principals hold the view that teachers and other staff members
are, in general, well-motivated and reliable self-starters. Other principals
feel that they must closely monitor the activities of their employees to insure
that they are performing "to standard". What supervisory approach did you customarily
use during your career as principal?

A: I think that there teachers that are motivated self-starters. I think
that there are some that are not. I don't want to say there are more on one
side or the other. I think you have to adjust yourself, uh, to which is which
and help that person, the person that is self-motivated, to help that person
in the right direction, make sure that person is going in the right direction.
And, uh, I think, too, that the person who is not a self-starter-that you need
to help them and to show them the necessity of becoming a self-starter and to
help them. So its, uh, kind of a push with one and a pull with the other.

Q: One model of leadership describes people as either assertive, supportive,
or contemplative. Would you please categorize yourself and give your reasons
for this assignment.

A: I would hope that my position was being supportive because again the teacher
was the one that interacted with the students. (Problem with tape player). I
would hope that my position was one of being supportive....(Problem with tape
player). I would hope that my position was one being supportive because again
the student must live with the teacher, all day, every day. The teacher doesn't
have to live with the principal. Because he must live with the teacher. The
teacher must know he is supporting them. (Problem with tape player). The teacher
must know the principal is supports them. That they can depend on the support
of the principal. The principal must understand that the teacher is going to
make a mistake. The teacher must understands they're going to make a mistake.
But then we correct it and we move on. Uh, but we still support the teacher
with what they're doing and help them to help the student. Again this is the
student's education, not the principal's or the teacher's. It is the student's.
So the teacher must have the leeway, uh, to know how to act and interact with
that student. Or they must have to ability to know how act , to interact with
that student. They must have the latitude to act, interact with that student.
And the principal must support them in that. And I, uh, remember, if I can tell
you another war story. Teacher came up one day wanting to know if they could
do a certain thing. And I said, "Well, and questioned the teacher and so forth
and I told them to go ahead. A little later the teacher came back and said,
"Why didn't you tell me that you knew that was not going to work?" I said, "Would
you have listened?, Would you have been happy?" She said, :"NO!" And I said,
"Okay, okay". I said but, but what I made sure of was that nobody was going
to get hurt. And when I determined that no one was going to get hurt..." Then
I said, "But you will know next time, won't ya?" The teacher became an excellent
teacher. And in fact, I'm happy to say that teacher is still in our system today.

Q: Would you describe some of the pressures you faced on a daily basis
and explain how you coped with them, describe your biggest headaches or concerns
on the job? Describe the toughest decision or decisions that you had to make.

A: I think that the greatest pressures that I had to face were that, uh, our
school where I was last principal, had two "ends" and no "middle". It had country
club, it had housing project, no middle. Uh, how do you tell..., okay you're
dealing with people, in that particular school I was dealing with the children
of the surgeon. The surgeon says, "You have surgery or you don't." And that's
what happens. I was working with the owner of the mill. The owner of the mill
says, "You're hired, you're not. You're fired or you're not. You get a raise
or you don't" And that's the way it was. We were working with people that were
the president of the bank. The "loan, the no loan", and so forth and so on and
on and on it goes. How do you tell these people, "No". How do you tell this
group of people, "You're not going to run this building?" How do you take the
people from the project and the people from the country club and cause them
to live together. But yet, that 's what we were required to do. I will recall,
uh, that a gentleman came into the office one day and told me point-blank, "You
will do this!" I said, "NO". He said, you didn't understand me, "I said you
will do this!" I said, "NO". He said, "You will do this or you will read about
it on the front page of the newspaper if I have to buy the paper to do it.!"
I said, "I hope the paper doesn't cost you too much." So..(laughter).. Uh, and
he had the ability to buy the paper! But how do you, how do you tell the surgeon,
"No"? How do you tell the president of the bank, "No"? How do you, uh.. and
these are the pressures I was dealing with, uh, basically, uh, where I was.
The biggest headache or concern was dealing with this and making sure that everything
was kept on an even keel. The student from the project is just as important
as the student from the country club. How do you make that student from the
country club realize this student is just as important as you? How do make this
student realize you are just as important as the student from the country club?
Uh, that is, uh. The toughest decision? Believe it or not but the toughest decisions
uh, that we had to make was what students would be in what room; placing students.
And frankly, that was one nightmare I never conquered. But those were by far
the toughest decisions we had to make. Of course it was no fun, uh, to tell
a parent that their student, uh, must be, or must be retained or they must repeat
the grade or, uh. I have a little different philosophy of that. I don't think
that a student, I don't think there are very many students that repeat a grade.
I question whether there have been very many students in history who have ever
repeated a grade. If its awfully hard to repeat something you've never done.
Uh, so that's the way we tried to look at it. If a student was going to repeat
the grade, no. But it they were, if you were trying to get a student to reach
further than they could possibly reach, then sometime they need a little more
time to grow a little taller so they could reach that height. So we tried to
look at it like that. But still the toughest decisions I had to make were "Who's
going to be in which room?"

Q: Please discuss your personal code of ethics and give examples of how
you applied it during your career.

A: I think that a principal should have a very, very high moral standard.
I think they should live up to the moral standard. Again going back to my original
premise of "who you are", of knowing who you are. And, but I do not feel that
a principal should look at themselves nor permit others to look at them as if
they were some kind of deity. Uh, I think that, yes I agree that happiness is
never having to say I'm sorry. But then it comes necessary every now and then
to say "I'm sorry". But then when it becomes necessary to say "I'm sorry", then
say, "I'm sorry" and, uh, to move on then from that point. But you can't dwell
in the "I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry". After awhile
people are going to get the opinion that you are sorry. Uh, (laughter). But,
uh, but still the principal is not some kind of a deity. Did I apply that during
my career? I hope. I hope that people understood that I walked on the ground
too.

Q: If you had to do it again, what kinds of things would you do to better
prepare yourself for the principalship? Would you describe your feelings, knowing
what you now know about entering the principalship yourself if given the opportunity
to start anew.

A: If I could do it all over again, what would I do to better prepare myself?
I think that I would read more. I would listen more. I would examine more. I
would less, uh, set in my ways. I think I would look to other people more and
ask them, rather than to always, well not always, wanting to project my own
ways. Rather, I think I would look at them and say, "let's us discuss, let's
explore, let's find out and come to a mutual point on this." Now there are times
when you got to stop discussing and start doing. That I know. And sometimes
I think that we discuss things to death. We discuss but we never get anywhere.
I think discussions should be held for a purpose. Uh, and, uh, and move on from
there. But I think that what I would try to do is try to get other people's
ideas more and try to get other people to "buy in" more quickly than maybe I
did in the past. Sometimes I think I held mine up and saying "Here, look at
my high banner --Its better!" when it would have been better to have given other
people the opportunity to have said that rather than me saying that. So I think
that to, to get the input of other people is probably what I would like to,
uh, do if I were going to do it all over again. Again I think that the teachers
are far more important. I think that they are. And to, for me to stand in the
shadows and let them stand in the sunlight.

Q: Principals operate in a constantly tense environment. What kinds of
things did you do to maintain your sanity under these stressful conditions?

A: You ask yourself, "Where is the stress coming from? Why is it? Where,
What's causing it?" Then you eliminate the cause of it. Uh....nothing can be
stressful that you won't let be stressful. And if you permit to be stressful,
uh, then it can, then it will be. So, uh, what is causing the stress? Now there
are times when because of our actions or our inactions, uh, we cause things
to be very stressful. I remember one time the secretary from the central office
called and said, "You have a report in your box." This was about one "o" clock
one afternoon. She called and said, "You have a report in your box. You will
come immediately and get that report, fill it out and have it back in this office
by four "o" clock this afternoon. Thank You" You know what I did? I went to
see what that report was. Come to find out... This happened in December. Come
to find out that this report was due in Washington the previous July! And we
were just getting it! Well now.. (laughter)..Needless to say that paper was
smoking! Okay, what caused the stress in that one? It was because the report
was overlooked at an earlier time. And we got it in and we lived over it. Most
of the time, things that we consider stressful and so forth, uh, if you look
to see where the stress is coming from and why it's not as stressful as you
think. There are some of 'em that are, but not that many. Keep your sense of
humor.

Q: Would you give me an overall comment on the pros and cons of administrative
service, and any advice you would wish passed along to today's principals.

A: Administrative service is tremendous. Its a great opportunity. You miss
the students. You miss dealing with the students. Again, the teachers must be
"first out". You miss being with the students, of dealing hand or "one to one"
or "one on one" with the students, uh, of seeing them each day, all day and
this type thing. You miss that a tremendous amount. But yet you realize what
you're doing for the overall good. Uh, I think that, uh, if I were going to
pass on something for, uh, today's principals is: Have fun. Realize that it
is the student's opp., it is the student's education. And if the student realizes
it is his education, then his is going to buy into it and it is going to be
fun. So put the fun back into it. Laugh. Enjoy. Uh, have fun with the students.
Help them to grow, help them to know, And, uh, to, , don't, don't be too serious
about it. Again know where you're going and how to get there.

Q: Despite my best efforts to be comprehensive in my questioning, there
is probably something I have left out. What have I not asked you that I should
have?

A: That's a good question. i wish I had, wish I had a good answer to that
one. But one thing that I would add, uh, is: Do not accept excuses. Anything
that you do you do one of two things. You either succeed or you make excuses.
And when we say "I can't, I don't have this or I need that, or".. and so forth
and so on, uh, don't accept excuses. Take the, uh, baseball game for example.
The umpire calls the batter out. And the first thing he does is he looks around
at the umpire and, uh, if the, if the rules didn't prohibit it, its hard telling
what all he would say to the umpire because he called a strike that I didn't
think was a strike. Well I'll go back to the dugout and I'll beat on the water
fountain, or I'll, uh, throw my helmet at somebody or I'll do this or do that.
And then two or three batters later well the cameras will be on me again and
I'm still over there fuming or fussing over it. And what's the problem? The
problem is very simply, I didn't do my job. Had I done my job, I'd been on one
of the bases. And you don't see people standing on one of the bases jumping
up and down and snorting over whether or not the ump called it a strike. The
only people you see doing that's the person who didn't do the job. So don't
accept excuses. Don't offer excuses. I don't care what it is, its an excuse.
I very, very firmly believe, doesn't make it right or wrong, but I very, very
firmly believe that people are what they are because they want to be what they
are. If they wanted to be something else, they'd change it. So its up to us
to help people want to be the best that they can be. And, yes, I think that
we can all be better people, if we want to. And I think that we can do things
if we want to... but it is only if we want to. And anytime that we accept excuses,
that's what it is. Okay, we see children misbehave. Its nothing in the world
but they're behaving that way because they want to behave that way. I firmly
believe that people are what they are, they do what they do, simply because
that's what they want to do. If you look at it, then you will see that this
is, uh, this is the way they control other people. Okay, I have a temper tantrum
just to control my momma or daddy. Uh, I am the way that I am because I want
to be this way. If I wanted to be different, I'd change it. That's our goal.
To help the students to change.