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I'm not sure which day and age you live in, but conquests for world domination without consent of its people is definitely a flaw. Great guy at heart, but his goal is a narcissistic one and doomed to failure.

Alexander the Great is no more. All that's left is the character Rider, who still thinks that the world is his for the taking, even in a day and age where there are many established cultures and governing bodies that have no need of another ruler. There's probably a different word for the kind of character he is, but I'm bordering on 'dense' with a side of 'foolish'.

Chivalry is looong dead too. Your point is?

Anyway, way to completely misunderstand the character and what he thinks as conquest (to master without humiliation, to defeat without destruction. That is conquest for Rider). Read the novels, protip: all his followers were willing, all those countries he conquered ruled themselves while he kept on moving to the east. It's not 100% clear in the anime, although most people actually get the right idea. His goal is to be alive again. As Waver lays it down:

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This man merely possessed a charisma that was overwhelming and incomparable with other mortals – so great was it that even those majestic and elite armies who worshiped him, believed in him like a god, and could even give their lives to him.

At the end, Waver had to admit – those who mocked the King of Conquerors’s wish as a boring wish are the foolish ones who merely dragged their bodies along from day to day, and spend their life away on nothing.

Pity we don't get those insights (this was during their conversation that episode 13 adapted). Including the detailed dream Waver saw: how those countries leaders and warriors he had defeated before leaving them, abandoned everything to follow him and swearing loyalty to him, because he awoken in their hearts an illusion they had thrown away. The reason why Saber was so emo and envious was because he pretty much accomplished what she wanted but couldn't: flawless cooperation with his people. And he did it without any of her thorny path sacrifices.

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Originally Posted by Terminator98

That's why he said that "a stupid servant such as him deserved a stupid master" to Waver. He seems to be very conscious of his own foolishness.

Yep, this too. Rider's pretty idealistic like Arturia, just a different set of ideals.

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"Who would understand you after I die? Who else would march forward by your side?"

Dreams are dreams. Foolish, near impossible things that we strive to accomplish. Yet, the greater the dreams, the greater the potential of greatness for those who manage to make the impossible possible.

Rider and Arturia both had dreams, great dreams. These dreams pushed them to accomplish the feats that finally defined them as heroes. Even though they weren't be able to accomplish all their dreams, the history they left behind them can only let us admire them and call them Heroes, because they are people who have fought and battled to the end so that their dream may become real.

Rider got this point right, he has no regrets on what he failed to accomplish, because he gave it all he could.

Plus, way to completely misunderstand the character and what he thinks as conquest. Read the novels, protip: all his followers were willing, all those countries he conquered ruled themselves while he kept on moving to the east. It's not 100% clear in the anime, although most people actually get the right idea. His goal is to be alive again.

I admire your tenacity in defending your favorite character, but you did not manage to refute one part of my post. Alexander the Great didn't politely walk up to every kingdom and ask if they could start a new empire with him, he invaded countries and started war, with his sole purpose being, and I quote, 'to reach the furthest border of the East'. He wanted to make a name for himself and leave his very footprint in the history bucks as one of the greatest conquerors this world has ever seen.

Despite his intentions, he ultimately took everything he wanted by force, hence the title 'Iksander, King of Conquerors'. Your na´ve portrayal of him as a great man does nothing to change the facts. The ends did not justify the means. He is an ambitious, but inconsiderate and reckless man, and did not fight for the sake of his expanding empire, but rather himself. Those are his true flaws, not overbearing kindness. And in this respect, yes, he is indeed the polar opposite of Saber, as her goal to protect her country with no regard for herself is more noble than his ego trip will ever be.

The spot for "the most powerful being" in the Nasuverse is quite a hot topic. Arguments and speculations abound, but most people still can't settle down wherever ORT, Arcueid, or whoever of the first ten Dead Apostles Ancestors is the most powerful.

One thing seems to be certain though from the info that I gathered.

Altrouge and all her mooks gathered is probably more powerful than Arcueid herself.

I admire your tenacity in defending your favorite character, but you did not manage to refute one part of my post. Alexander the Great didn't politely walk up to every kingdom and ask if they could start a new empire with him, he invaded countries and started war, with his sole purpose being, and I quote, 'to reach the furthest border of the East'. He wanted to make a name for himself and leave his very footprint in the history bucks as one of the greatest conquerors this world has ever seen.

Lol, what? No, he didn't. In fact, he didn't care about it. It's in his very conversation with Waver. You're completely and utterly missing the point with his characterization so much I'm thinking you're making things up and haven't watched even the anime. Here the novel version:

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“You just let other write whatever they want? – It’s history concerning you.”

“Hmm? This isn’t much to be worried about… you find it weird?”

“Of course!”

Waver continued speaking.

“Any ruler in any era would wish to have his name remembered by those after him. They’d definitely all get angry if they know records of them, made by later men, have errors or missed something out.”

“Hmm, true. If you can leave your name behind in history, then it also counts as some kind of immortality. However, all these are meaningless to me. I’d rather have twenty more years of life like this compared to existing in such books with just my name for two thousand years.”

“…”

Rider doesn't care about his historical records at all.

Also, my favorite character is Kotomine, who is really twisted, and I love him for it. I think Rider is the most likable character and even the most admirable in a life a human being should strive for (Saber is admirable too, but she led a life no human should have), but he's not my favorite (he's just among them). Furthermore, I dislike when people completely misunderstand any Fate character, including freakin' Sola who is one of my least favorites.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SJCrew

Despite his intentions, he ultimately took everything he wanted by force, hence the title 'Iksander, King of Conquerors'. Your na´ve portrayal of him as a great man does nothing to change the facts. The ends did not justify the means. He is an ambitious, but inconsiderate and reckless man, and did not fight for the sake of his expanding empire, but rather himself. Those are his true flaws, not overbearing kindness. And in this respect, yes, he is indeed the polar opposite of Saber, as her goal to protect her country with no regard for herself is more noble than his ego trip will ever be.

They can't be flaws, because they were never portrayed like that in the story. Rider has never, in the story, sacrificed the life of anyone for his benefit. He has been nothing but helpful and diplomatic, trying to avoid conflict when it can be avoided. I can even give examples but those are pretty spoilery; I suppose one would have been not letting Saber getting owned twice in the past (with Lancer and Lancer/Berserker), yet he didn't. Was he as you believe he was, he would have let that happen. Instead, he chose to save her and to give a hand to Lancer against his Lord. Even Saber, novel wise, realized that Rider could have killed them all with one swoop when he trampled Berserker but didn't. When he talks about Darius III, his nemesis, to Waver; he speaks as if the guy was his BFF (sadly the anime cut this bit). Yeah, he does flashy entrances... that's it? Inconsiderate? He's tactful when it matters and thoughtful of people's feelings. See how he behaves with Waver, use that as example of how he treats his subjects, the guy is nothing but patient and helpful. Episode 9 is a great example.

He fought for himself, because the will of the king as a fact is the will of his followers. They are one. That's the basis of his power: flawless cooperation. King and subject are one.

Of course he 'takes things by force' but you're missing the point of what conquest means to him: he masters without humiliation and destruction. That's his "force". His way is kind of similar to the shounen protagonists who defeat the enemy of choice, then they switch sides. That's why he's misplaced in his kindness, this isn't a shounen series. Even Saber comes across as more ruthless than him, IMO.

What's your point? Leaders do awful things? The end justifies the means? Saber, much like Kiritsugu (that's why they are more compatible than they think, outside of their conflicting thoughts about chivalry), sacrificed the minority to save the majority. All for the sake of her goal, including killing her son, Mordred, when he rose against her. So she's not really bloodless on this, either. Yeah, she did it for the sake of her kingdom, but so what? Rider's ideal is no way inferior to hers, but different.

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"Who would understand you after I die? Who else would march forward by your side?"

Iskander for sure. I love his blunt and direct approach to everything compared to everyone else's secretive plotting.

He is so silly with his modern clothing and wine party.

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If this is not restricted to F/Z Anime, Matou Kariya. I pity him but also admire him.

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Anyone feel Irisviel have nearly no personality? (Probably just me). She's not even boring. Being boring is even a trait. But it just seems as though the team decided to not develop any personality into her character.

Anyone feel Irisviel have nearly no personality? (Probably just me). She's not even boring. Being boring is even a trait. But it just seems as though the team decided to not develop any personality into her character.

You're definitely in the minority there. I honestly think she has a great personality. From her cheerful curiosity, to her mad driving, to her tragic acceptance of her fate. And I think her relationships with Kiritsugu and Saber are fantastic too.

You're definitely in the minority there. I honestly think she has a great personality. From her cheerful curiosity, to her mad driving, to her tragic acceptance of her fate. And I think her relationships with Kiritsugu and Saber are fantastic too.

I agree. She's perky, plucky girl with a tragic fate. She's kind, sharp-witted and loving. How isn't that a personality?

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"Who would understand you after I die? Who else would march forward by your side?"

Well on the subject of Irisviel I can't blame anyone for having a hard time defining her character. She's got more personality than Kariya but that's not really saying much considering it was only more than zero. It especially doesn't help that almost every time we see her that there's someone around who leaves a much stronger impression. Irisviel might have been more memorable in a less epic setting but as it stands she's mild salsa among blazing hot sauce; a victim of circumstance.

Well, Iri's personality isn't that strong because she's been brought up to be an emotionless doll. And, I don't see how Kariya "lacks personality". He lacks screentime, yes, but the time he has had has definitely shown that he has a personality....

Well, Iri's personality isn't that strong because she's been brought up to be an emotionless doll. And, I don't see how Kariya "lacks personality". He lacks screentime, yes, but the time he has had has definitely shown that he has a personality....

She might have been raised specifically for battle, but I imagine that marrying someone and starting a family is going to require more than whatever she started with. And Kariya's lack of screen time isn't an excuse considering Rin's episode fleshed out one character more than the entire anime did for Matou. And for reference, this is my first rodeo with the Fate/ series and I'm not likely to read the light novels, meaning there's no out-of-show development influencing my thoughts on the matter.

Irisviel does not lack personality. She is very strong-willed and always cheerful even though she was doomed from the start. It should surprise no one that she ranks just behind Iskander on popularity poll.

I guess she appears to lack personality because F/Z has many extreme and unique personalities. There is Gilgamesh being the king above all with a sadistic twist, Iskander with all his awesomeness, Saber and Lancer being supremely chivalrous, and Caster......Irisviel is a little more subtle compared to them.