Marcus Luttrell is the lone survivor of the members of Seal Team 10 who were ambushed in the mountains in Afghanistan. A stunning story of heroism. The team was engaged in a reconnaissance mission when they were discovered by a few unarmed goat herders. The team debated whether they should let the goat herders go, allowing them to return to their village controlled by the Taliban, or execute the goat herders to avoid detection by the enemy. A vote was taken by the team of four. Luttrell cast the deciding vote to let the herders go; A vote that he regrets to this day. "It was a stupid, mind-numbing liberal vote, where I allowed my heart to over-rule my brain." The herders indeed returned to their village, informed the Taliban, and within an hour, the Seal Team was surrounded by hundreds of Taliban fighters. LUttrell was the loan survivor. Well worth the read. His new book is called 'Lone Survivor.' (http://www.strandbooks.com/app/www/p/profile/?isbn=0316067598&rsd=froogle.google.com) You must see this killer interview with Latrell on the Today Show here. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19173935/)

JCam0331

06-20-07, 09:56 PM

You need to read ONE BULLET AWAY: MAKING OF A MARINE OFFICER by Captain Nathaniel Fick, former platoon commander in the First Reconnaisance Battalion.

The whole book was a valuable lesson in decisive combat leadership to me.

You don't just go around mowing down unarmed civilians because you think they might be informants.

JCam0331

06-20-07, 10:01 PM

"If the Seals killed the unarmed civilians, they would violate military rules of engagement; if they let them go, they risked alerting the Taliban. According to Luttrell, one Seal voted to kill them, one voted to spare them and one abstained. It was up to Luttrell.
Part of his calculus was practical. "I didn't want to go to jail." Ultimately, the core of his decision was moral. "A frogman has two personalities. The military guy in me wanted to kill them," he recalled. And yet: "They just seemed like -- people. I'm not a murderer."

Petty Officer Luttrell made the right decision. It simply did not turn out in his favor. If I were in his position, I would have made the same decision.

SEALs aren't psychic. He had no way to know that these farmers would go and report them to the Taliban.

Why does everything have to be LIBERAL vs CONSERVATIVE to you?? (evidence by your highlighting in bold letters the sentence that had liberal in it)

Petty Officer Luttrell made a COMBAT DECISION. It had NOTHING to do with his personal political ideology. Wake up.

JCam0331

06-20-07, 10:08 PM

Crawling through the night, as Spanky Peterson's HH-60 flew overhead with other search helicopters, he (LUTRELL) made it to a pool of water. When he lifted his head, he saw an Afghan. He reached for his rifle.

But he couldn't stand. Three men lifted 240 pounds of dead weight and carried Luttrell to the 15-hut village of Sabray. They took his rifle.

What happened next baffled him. Mohammed Gulab, 33, father of six, fed Luttrell warm goat's milk, washed his wounds and clothed him in what Luttrell called "man jammies."
"I didn't trust them," Luttrell said. "I was confused. They'd reassure me, but hell, it wasn't in English."
Hours after his arrival, Taliban fighters appeared and demanded that the villagers surrender the American. They threatened Gulab, Luttrell said, and tried to bribe him. "I was waiting for a good deal to come along and for Gulab to turn me over.

"I'd been in so many villages. I'd be like, 'Up against the wall, and shut the hell up!' So I'm like, why would these people be kind to me?" Luttrell said. "I probably killed one of their cousins. And now I'm shot up, and they're using all the village medical supplies to help me."

On July 1, with Taliban threats intensifying, Gulab's father, the village elder, decided to seek help at a Marine outpost five miles down in the valley. Luttrell wrote a note: "This man gave me shelter and food, and must be helped."

Nice attempt to cut out bits and pieces of the article to further your "anti-liberal" political agenda.

Read the whole darn thing next time.

HOLM

06-20-07, 10:59 PM

Nice attempt to cut out bits and pieces of the article to further your "anti-liberal" political agenda.

Read the whole darn thing next time.

You need to back the fuk off... I cut and pasted the first little tid bit about the book I saw... I am ****** sorry it offended your ass.... I honestly had no intent of making this into a political discussion...

I just bought the book and plan to read it this week... Get a Grip...

The part that interested me the most was that interview.. I had seen the msnbc interview on TV the other day.. I had not seen that one and thought it was interesting..

But if you must be a total Arsehole and want to make this a frign political game...

Listen to the interview.. I like the bit about how he wouldn't tell another interviewer how to have sex with his wife and that politicains shouldn't tell him how to fight a war...

Calm the fuk down and take a deep ****** breath and try your best to get some oxygen into that brain of yours and lets discuss what seems like an interesting book, (from what I have read so far, I just picked it up) written by an exceptional human being...

This is a USMC website, remember? Not the ****** Girl Scouts...

HOLM

06-20-07, 11:44 PM

LOL... I just thought of something...

LOL... I guess given the exchanges b/t you and I... and that quote I shouldn't have been so crass in my last post...

I didn't mean to bold that... I forgot that this site allows the text to stay in its original cutted format when it is pasted in...

LOL...

Oh well.... I have been reading the book tonight.. It is certainly an interesting read...

HOLM

06-20-07, 11:54 PM

. He had trouble in survival training because they had to slaughter rabbits: "I didn't want to kill the bunny."
Talking about one the rescue pilots...... HAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHA

We used to give that line to army kids at Redstone during my MOS school (about boot camp)

AHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAAHHAAA

Sous3313

06-21-07, 01:42 AM

You need to read ONE BULLET AWAY: MAKING OF A MARINE OFFICER by Captain Nathaniel Fick, former platoon commander in the First Reconnaisance Battalion.

The whole book was a valuable lesson in decisive combat leadership to me.

You don't just go around mowing down unarmed civilians because you think they might be informants.

I read that book. And Generation Kill that Fick is also in

Zulu 36

06-21-07, 06:25 AM

[/URL] A vote was taken by the team of four. Luttrell cast the deciding vote to let the herders go; A vote that he regrets to this day. "It was a stupid, mind-numbing liberal vote, where I allowed my heart to over-rule my brain." [URL="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19173935/"] (http://www.breitbart.tv/?p=1774)

I am going to take this one bit out of Holms post to make a NON-political comment.

If this was a team of four, and the hero of the story cast the "deciding vote" that meant three of them must have voted NOT to kill the herders and only one did. How could four people have a vote that required a tie-breaker and get it?

Or is my math wrong?

HOLM

06-21-07, 06:43 AM

The story goes that one voted to kill, one to capture, and one not to kill...

That left his vote..

And I should have picked a better description of the book to post.. I honestly did not intend to politic this one up....

Sgt Leprechaun

06-21-07, 09:13 AM

But, political it is, and will continue to be.

This is not a decision that ANY of us should ever be forced to make, gents (and ladies). Until you are in the situation, you have no real idea how you are going to act, no matter the political persuasion.

I want to read the book, for sure.

And, I've read "One Bullet away". It's also a good book.

Lastly, if you believe he made the 'right' decision, you are also using hindsight. His 'right' choice no doubt led to the later events that occurred. So, those who automatically drop down on the side of "we don't kill them because...." without taking a hard look at the situation are wargaming. Which is fine...but pray you never have to make that choice.

What would I have done? I have no earthly idea. And I refuse to judge any decision made in that regard, unless I was there.

outlaw3179

06-21-07, 09:59 AM

That was a very good video. Thanks for the link HOLM. Definetly have to pick that book up . I think he said alot of the things that most Marines and soldiers want to say . Thanks.

JCam0331

06-21-07, 10:21 AM

I am going to take this one bit out of Holms post to make a NON-political comment.

If this was a team of four, and the hero of the story cast the "deciding vote" that meant three of them must have voted NOT to kill the herders and only one did. How could four people have a vote that required a tie-breaker and get it?

Or is my math wrong?

The article said one of them abstained from the vote.

Holm - from the part you outlined in bold, it looked as if you were making a political statement. I apologize if I was wrong.

Thank you for the book recommendation. I will pick it up when I get the chance as well.

HOLM

06-21-07, 02:07 PM

The article said one of them abstained from the vote.

Holm - from the part you outlined in bold, it looked as if you were making a political statement. I apologize if I was wrong.

Thank you for the book recommendation. I will pick it up when I get the chance as well.
No Problem... The wife was on my case and I responded in the mood I was in.... :)

LOL.....

google this

"Marcus Luttrell Lone Survivor"

The first site that popped up had a little cut that was almost what I was looking for so I used it...

HAHAHAHHAHAHA...

I didn't think anything of it at the time... but.

HAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAH

The website that little bit of text came from is..... (drum roll please)

I wasn't thinking in the political sense.. I was only interested in the military aspect (of which in this case there is a moral issue as well as political)

So I guess that part was probably outlined in bold for political reasons.. I just didn't intend it that way...

I will try harder to clean it up next time...:banana:

I just thought you would have been smart enough to know that I MEANT to say .... "IN MY LIFETIME"

HAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHA:banana:

rheinmark187

06-21-07, 07:52 PM

This story has intrigued me since It first came to light. I'll go out and purchase the book as soon as I find it.

As for the debate in the thread: I'm so paranoid I would have definitely voted to kill them, right then and there. But who knows, maybe those men knew the villager, and that could have been what saved Luttrell's life? We'll have to read the book to find out.

JCam0331

06-21-07, 09:55 PM

This story has intrigued me since It first came to light. I'll go out and purchase the book as soon as I find it.

As for the debate in the thread: I'm so paranoid I would have definitely voted to kill them, right then and there. But who knows, maybe those men knew the villager, and that could have been what saved Luttrell's life? We'll have to read the book to find out.

"definitely"??

there men were unarmed shepards. I know you're a Marine, but you're obviously a human being, and killing them would violate every law of war and rule of engagement governing the Armed Forces of the United States.

You're not psychic. You don't know what they will do.

Essentially you're saying you're going to kill them "just incase".

I must disagree vehemently with your judgement call.

HOLM

06-21-07, 10:36 PM

"definitely"??

there men were unarmed shepards. I know you're a Marine, but you're obviously a human being, and killing them would violate every law of war and rule of engagement governing the Armed Forces of the United States.

You're not psychic. You don't know what they will do.

Essentially you're saying you're going to kill them "just incase".

I must disagree vehemently with your judgement call.

I didn't say chit... i just thought the book was interesting...

I dunno what I would do in that situation...

JCam0331

06-21-07, 10:39 PM

I didn't say chit... i just thought the book was interesting...

I dunno what I would do in that situation...

I was responding to somene else lol you paranoid

HOLM

06-22-07, 08:19 AM

I was responding to somene else lol you paranoid

:)

yellowwing

06-22-07, 08:43 AM

That web link never loaded for me but I did find many You Tube clips for "Marcus Luttrell". I just watched his Today Show interview.

Wow Luttrell is a big guy, and two he still has those eyes of a Warrior. No, I for one can not judge him for what his Team decided when we sent them 60 klicks beyond the civilized world.

HOLM

06-22-07, 08:48 AM

I love the little grins he makes when he is asked stupid questions...

Ohhh if he could only talk like a SEAL on TV....

yellowwing

06-22-07, 08:59 AM

LMAO, his bearing and attitude with the interviewer reminds me of Jack Palance and Billy Crystal. "I crap bigger that you!"

"Hi Curly! Kill anyone today?"

"Day ain't over yet!" :D

HOLM

06-23-07, 11:09 AM

http://www.glennbeck.com/news/06212007a.shtml

Sgt Leprechaun

06-25-07, 05:08 AM

Ah, it's nice to be soooo very moral to be able to definitively say what you are going to do.

HOLM

06-25-07, 09:32 AM

I have just finished up the book... He makes a couple attempts to say that he would have done it differently (greased em right there).. <br />
<br />
I kinda doubt that... <br />
<br />
<br />
They were in the thick of the...

Sgt Leprechaun

06-25-07, 09:52 AM

Typical. But, I believe we have our answer now.

HOLM

06-25-07, 10:07 AM

"Yep... it is just more "neo con" propaganda.. ;)

He is a texan BTW... And real proud of the picture of himself with the Texan in the white house..

He makes reference to the fact that Clinton and Bush are very different (btw)

Sgt Leprechaun

06-25-07, 11:18 AM

Yeah, those dang NEOCONS!

AAHHHHHHHHH!!!

"NeoCon". Sounds like an alien in an old "Star Trek" episode....

Star Trek: "REVENGE OF THE NEOCONS": (Friday, 7pm) Kirk and Dr McCoy are stranded on a planet when the NeoCons take offense at Spock's ears.....

rheinmark187

06-25-07, 07:45 PM

"definitely"??

there men were unarmed shepards. I know you're a Marine, but you're obviously a human being, and killing them would violate every law of war and rule of engagement governing the Armed Forces of the United States.

You're not psychic. You don't know what they will do.

Essentially you're saying you're going to kill them "just incase".

I must disagree vehemently with your judgement call.

Yeah just finished reading this Book. The Author (luttrell) says that he regrets his vote to spare them.

rheinmark187

06-25-07, 07:53 PM

Also, these shepherds were in Taliban sympathetic areas, and their deep recon mission was completely compromised. Their rules of engagement might have left it up to their own discretion, so they might have very well been free to kill them. When luttrell recounts it, he's more worried about the media backlash, and the perception of misconduct as opposed to actual misconduct.

Sgt Leprechaun

06-26-07, 06:12 AM

And...THERE you have it. It's not a 'moral' question per se, it's a "How will this play on the five oclock news" question.

In law enforcement, we deal with that every single day. Doesn't matter how right the officer might be, all that matters is "He shot the guy in the back" "The guy only had a baseball bat, why did they have to kill him?" etc etc etc. Ad nauseum.

I lay the deaths of these operators directly at the hands of our media frenzy like culture.

rheinmark187

06-26-07, 04:19 PM

The team did call for guidance when the shepherds discovered them. Either they couldn't get a proper signal, or no one was listening at the Comm hut. I'd like to hear from a jag/mp/legal guy about this. Would they be wrong in killing them, when they percieved that these men might very well inform the taliban?

Sgt Leprechaun

06-26-07, 04:32 PM

If JAG would have cleared it, they would have been in the clear.

I'm not up on the exact legalities of the issue during wartime. It would depend on if the shepards were working for the Taliban, or not. If they were, they could be considered 'partisans' or 'guerrilla' fighters, which exempts them from the Hague and Geneva conventions.

This is one of those "razor's edge" deals where you are damned if you do, and damned if you don't. No doubt in years to come it will be endlessly debated in JAG and other schools as well as on boards like this.

joegelman

09-05-07, 11:54 AM

I read the posts; indeed, I run a political blog and I did mean to highlight the comments from political perspective. I think that's pretty obvious. Very interesting comments in the forum, which I realize is a non-political forum; although when it comes to military matters, sometimes it's hard to seperate in the real world. All the best,
Joe Gelman
www.neoconexpress.blogspot.com (http://www.neoconexpress.blogspot.com)

SSgt Blue

09-05-07, 12:39 PM

It is amazing how many people don’t know him and what he had to go through. I only hope that I will never be faced with that decision. I hope more people have the chance to meet this man. He is a great example of our nation’s military men that are professional gun fighters, who have honor and courage to do the right thing. I would like to meet him some day and have the chance to talk to him.

FistFu68

09-05-07, 12:40 PM

:evilgrin: CHIT~HAPPEN'S :evilgrin: THAT DUMB 'FUC WON'T GET A DIME OF BLOOD ($$) FROM ME!!!!:usmc:

DROD

09-05-07, 07:59 PM

Since when in the U.S. military did we come up with a freaking democracy. Where was the leadership in this situaition ? I would hope that the leadership in e SEALS recognizes there wasn't proper leadership. A Recon Marine team would have had someone with good jugement and made a command decision! There wouldn't have been no freaking voting! One of the things that makes the Marine's the world's most ELITE fighting forces in the world is proven Leadership !:flag:

Mikhaelis

09-05-07, 09:57 PM

Well it would seem the one compromising decision between kill or go free would be to hold them prisoner, or at least to detain them, leave them unconcious and change locations as obviously the mission had been compromised.

FistFu68

09-06-07, 01:25 PM

:evilgrin: CPL.D~CPL.M~NOW WE ARE TALKIN,TWO VERY GOOD POINT'S MARINES:evilgrin: S/F THAT!!!:thumbup:

Jim82-86

09-06-07, 04:03 PM

Hmmmm...let 'em go and wind up w/ 75% of your squad dead...or kill the shepards / detain 'em and 100% of squad lives to fight the enemies of the US another day???
The outcome clearly indicates that the Seals made the wrong decision. Sensitivity-training and lawyers have no place on the battle field.
If the issue is whether or not my wife will become a widow and my children fatherless...sorry shepards, but you are in the wrong place at the wrong time. I'll do my best to preserve your life in the unlikely event you are innocent...but my wife and children (and my squad-members' wives and children) come before you and yours.
Semper Fi does not apply to enemy combatants OR their supporters. Terrorists are evil...and should be treated accordingly.
That's not a liberal or conservative position--it is just common sense.

Semper Fi my friends!

nevada kid

12-13-10, 07:23 PM

i have read his book and i think he should have wasted the goat heads, marines in the south pacific took a lot of jap lives after interogating them. should they let them go to kill another marine i know these were jap marines not goatherders . his decision caused three
seal lives. lutrell makes little mention about the marine corps.? was there a small conflict
there?

Zulu 36

12-13-10, 07:49 PM

i have read his book and i think he should have wasted the goat heads, marines in the south pacific took a lot of jap lives after interogating them. should they let them go to kill another marine i know these were jap marines not goatherders . his decision caused three
seal lives. lutrell makes little mention about the marine corps.? was there a small conflict
there?

During the time period Lutrell was writing about, he would have had little association (if any) with Marines. Few Marines were in Afghanistan at that time and those were far, far away from Lutrell's op area. Their backup was the Army Rangers, who responded as he wrote about.

In fact, most Marines in Afghanistan now are still far from where Lutrell operated.

As far as killing those herders, that was a decision the team had to make and any input from us is useless 20/20 hindsight. We weren't there.

The DUKE

12-13-10, 10:27 PM

Yes well,
IMHO arm chair generals are a dime a dozen,
Lutrell,
for whatever its worth in the light of right or wrong is one in a million.

HOLM

12-14-10, 09:05 AM

Not exactly... But something along these lines applies

We made a great mistake in the beginning of our struggle, and I fear, in spite of all we can do, it will prove to be a fatal mistake. We appointed all our worst generals to command our armies, and all our best generals to edit the newspapers

Robert E Lee.

Muhreen4Lyfe

12-14-10, 11:23 AM

I can't in good faith recommend you read &quot;his&quot; book. Because Luttrell didn't pen it, a ghost-writer did. He did 6 interviews with Luttrell, none of them were recorded on anything but a notepad. <br />
...

Muhreen4Lyfe

12-14-10, 11:29 AM

MoH Citation:

Lieutenant Murphy's team was discovered by anti-coalition militia sympathizers, who revealed their position to Taliban fighters. As a result, between 30 and 40 enemy fighters besieged his four member team. Demonstrating exceptional resolve, Lieutenant Murphy valiantly led his men in engaging the large enemy force. The ensuing fierce firefight resulted in numerous enemy casualties, as well as the wounding of all four members of the team. Ignoring his own wounds and demonstrating exceptional composure, Lieutenant Murphy continued to lead and encourage his men.

Muhreen4Lyfe

12-14-10, 11:37 AM

Also for images of the ambush site, screen caps from video recorded of the ambush, and Shah himself:

http://www.darack.com/sawtalosar/

martinj

12-15-10, 04:44 AM

Since when in the U.S. military did we come up with a freaking democracy. Where was the leadership in this situaition ? I would hope that the leadership in e SEALS recognizes there wasn't proper leadership. A Recon Marine team would have had someone with good jugement and made a command decision! There wouldn't have been no freaking voting! One of the things that makes the Marine's the world's most ELITE fighting forces in the world is proven Leadership !:flag:

It's different with recon and even seals. Yea there is that leadership position but it's not the same as in the grunts or anything else. When it comes to big decisions the team leader has the final decision but he takes into account what his team members say. When your as highly trained as those guys you have to listen to everyone.

LandsNGrooves

12-19-10, 12:41 PM

It's different with recon and even seals. Yea there is that leadership position but it's not the same as in the grunts or anything else. When it comes to big decisions the team leader has the final decision but he takes into account what his team members say. When your as highly trained as those guys you have to listen to everyone.

Thanks for chiming in. I have no clue why conventional soldiers and Marines assume the Ranger/Recon guys and any level of SF are just like them, but with "all that high speed, gear queer stuff".

5811USMC

12-23-10, 07:37 AM

I read this book a few months ago and I just realized if you go off of the "How to spot a fake SEAL" guidelines I wouldnt believe a word Luttrell said LOL I know it actually happened, but think about it... If he came up to you in a bar and told you he was a SEAL, then showed you the Trident tattoo he has and told you how his whole team got taken out except for him, he was taken in by locals who protected him and his buddy was awarded the Medal of Honor most of us would throw the bull sh!@ flag. They need to put a disclaimer "with the exception of Marcus Luttrell" at the end of the guidelines.