hello, it's thursday, it's 9 o'clock. i'm victoria derbyshire. welcome to the programme. a retired judge — sir martin moore—bick — will lead the inquiry into the grenfell tower disaster. we'll ask if his appointment will lead to survivors getting the answers they need about the tragedy. there are moves already being made. there are moves already being made. the public enquiry has already started, but we haven't been given the opportunity to come together as one. we need and demand to be part of every single decision made in that public enquiry. we will bring you some facts about the man who will lead the investigation, and why he is described by one newspaper today as controversial. the parents of a man who became known asjihadijack talk the parents of a man who became known as jihadi jack talk about their efforts to bring him home from syria. i remember screaming in screaming at him on the phone, how

9:01 am

could he be so stupid? the line went dead and he did not contact us again. not for another three weeks. we will have an interview with the pa rents we will have an interview with the parents about the last time they spoke to their son. will the government stand firm on its spending plans when their legislative programme is debated in the commons again today? we are live until 11, as we are each weekday morning. the question today: is it time to relax their pay cap on firefighters, teachers, nurses and eve ryo ne firefighters, teachers, nurses and everyone else who works in the public sector? if you're affected by the pay cap which was debated in the commons last night, and there was a movement to try to get that lifted but it was defeated, if you want to see that happen, do let me know how

9:02 am

you think it should be paid for. it is expected that the retired appeal courtjudge, sir martin it is expected that the retired appeal court judge, sir martin moore bick, will be appointed to lead the public enquiry into the grenfell tower fire. the government says it is determined to get to the truth of what happened at grenfell tower, and this is the man set to be given that task — a retired court of appealjudge, sir martin moore—bick. he specialised in commercial law in a career spanning almost 50 years. with the clamour for answers, he will be expected to produce his initial findings quickly. the police say they may not be able to confirm how many people died until the end of the year at the earliest. they estimate so far that the death toll stands at 80, but stress that is not the final picture. some victims may never be identified.

9:03 am

as the investigation continues, the national housing federation is calling on the government to stop its testing of cladding, and instead focus on removing it to make people safe. having had 120 different tests, from different samples, from different buildings, in different parts of the country, i think we can now say that according to the tests that the government is carrying out, this cladding is not fit for purpose. we don't need to test any more of it. today, another victim of the fire will be laid to rest, tony disson. his family say they are devastated, and will miss him terribly. the sad reality is there will be many funerals to follow. simon jones, bbc news. let's talk to our legal eagle, clive coleman. tell us more about this retired judge. he has coleman. tell us more about this retiredjudge. he has a kind of classic cv of a successful court of appealjudge. he was called to the bar ini986,

9:04 am

appealjudge. he was called to the bar in 1986, served as a deputy high court judge, bar in 1986, served as a deputy high courtjudge, and bar in 1986, served as a deputy high court judge, and was bar in 1986, served as a deputy high courtjudge, and was then a high courtjudge, and was then a high court judge, courtjudge, and was then a high courtjudge, serving mainly in the commercial court, dealing with technical, engineering type evidence, in many cases, which of course is a qualification for grenfell. he retired last year, and for the last two years, he was vice president of the court of appeal‘s civil division. he is married with children. he is an establishment figure, and his brother is a retired general. why is he described as controversial by the papers today? he left the court of appeal last year, he left the court of appeal last yea r, after he left the court of appeal last year, after serving 11 years or so. this morning, in the papers, one of his decisions has been picked up, and it is a case in 2014 where he oversaw a case and ruled that a london tenant, a woman who lived in westminster, a single mother with five children, and she was re—housed some 50 miles away by westminster

9:05 am

council, in bletchley, near milton keynes. she disputed that decision, said it was unlawful, took a judicial review will stop when it got to the court of appeal, he had to scrutinise whether decision taken by the council... and councils are allowed to rehouse people out of area in certain circumstances. he decided it was not unlawful. some people are nodding at that as perhaps a perceived bias against vulnerable families. everyone i have spoken to has said, look at his entire career. this was one decision and he was applying the law. after the case, the solicitor said, the judgment could have dire consequences for vulnerable families across the country. he said, it gives the green light for councils to engage in social cleansing of the poor on a mass scale. when you have

9:06 am

comments like that, you could see why some people would think that is a controversialjudge for this enquiry. what about the terms of reference, who decides that? that will be decided by the government. let me say why i think they have picked this particularjudge. first, he has been in the commercial court. asa he has been in the commercial court. as a barrister, he was involved in shipping cases and would have had to deal with complex engineering matters — why a ship sank, for instance. you need arejudge you can get their head around the technical details. you also need a judge who is going to be good in communicating with the families, empathetic. heather hallett got a lot of plaudits for the way she handled the 77 case —— the 7/7 case. a friend of

9:07 am

martin moore bic has said that he can be persuaded and can change his position. annita mcveigh is in the bbc newsroom with a summary of the rest of the day's news. there'll be another big test for theresa may in the commons today as she faces a key vote on the queen's speech. with the support of the democratic unionists, the government is expected to pass its plans for the next parliament, after narrowly surviving a vote last night on changes to public—sector pay. 0ur political correspondent leila nathoo has the details. the ayes to the right, 309. the noes to the left, 323. the first vote of this parliament on a labour amendment to the queen's speech proposing to end the cap on public sector pay rises went the government's way. this was the first test of theresa may's deal with the dup, made to boost the numbers on her side in the commons. last night, it delivered.

9:08 am

all ten dup mps voted in line with the conservatives to help see off the opposition‘s challenge. today ahead of the final vote on the queen's speech which sets out the government's policy programme, labour will try their luck again. we're putting forward fundamentally what was in the manifesto in the election, a brexit which guarantees trade relations with europe, a government that ends the public sector pay gap —— with europe, a government that ends the public sector pay cap and a government that invests in the educational future of all our children, from nursery through to university. labour thinks it's on the front foot with its calls to end austerity. many conservatives admit the cuts didn't go down well on the doorstep during the election campaign. but after signals from senior cabinet members and downing street sources that the pay cap would be reviewed, jeremy hunt later insisted there was not yet any change in policy. we will not make our decision on public sector pay until the pay review body has reported.

9:09 am

and we will listen to what they say, and we will listen to what people in this house have said before making a final decision. theresa may is expected to win the vote on the queen's speech today with the support of the dup and her backbenchers are unlikely to rebel. but her majority is slim, her authority is still fragile. leila nathoo, bbc news, westminster. police in australia have charged one of the most senior roman catholic cardinals, george pell, with sexually abusing children. cardinal pell is in charge of the vatican's finances and is considered to rank third in the hierarchy of the church. he is accused of multiple offences dating back to the 1970s— charges he's strenuously denied. iam i am looking forward finally to having my day in court. i am innocent of these charges. they are

9:10 am

false. the whole idea of sexual abuse is abhorrent to me. talks over resuming power—sharing stormont have stalled with only eight hours to go until the deadline. northern ireland faces the prospect of direct rule from london ifan prospect of direct rule from london if an agreement cannot be reached. culture and media secretary karen bradley will make an announcement today about whether 20th century fox, owned by rupert murdoch, is allowed to take over sky. it would give mr murdoch total control of the broadcaster of which he already owns 39%. 0pponents say that any deal will give him too much power over the uk media. a mother has described the distress of discovering her baby son had been circumcised without her consent. the woman, from nottingham,

9:11 am

said she has been trying for four years to get the authorities to take action, after she opened her son's nappy to find him covered in blood. the boy was circumcised in 2013 when he was apparently staying with his paternal grandparents. three people have now been arrested on suspicion of grievous bodily harm with intent. the national crime agency says it's increasingly concerned about the influence criminals from the balkans — particularly violent gangs from albania — have over the uk drug trafficking market. it says corrupt workers at ports and airports make it easier for gangs to smuggle in drugs. here's our home affairs correspondent, danny shaw. more news at half past nine. to get in touch with this today. details on screen. now, let's get some sport. the big news from new

9:12 am

zealand in the last few hours is that warren gatland has named his lions team for the second test. you wait four years for a lions tour and you just hope it won't be an anti—climax, but it may be going that way this time around. the pressure is building for warren gatland and his players, stuck between a rock and a hard place at the moment. we knew it would be tough against world champions new zealand. they go into the second test in wellington knowing that anything other than victory means they cannot win the series. warren gatland has made several changes, sam warburton replacing peter 0'mahoney in the back row. george cruise drops out of the match day squad altogether. courtney lawes will beer substitute. ben te'o moves to the bench. 0wen farrell is given a start at inside centre, meaning jonny sexton will take up that pivotal spot. warren gatland gave

9:13 am

his views on that farrell and sexton combination. they haven't started together but they have had quite a bit of time together. it has given us bit of time together. it has given us two ballplayers, two kicking options on the right foot. we also have left foot options. we are happy with the mix. that partnership could be key to the lions unlocking success be key to the lions unlocking success this weekend. is not their side. the only time they have lost the opening test in comeback to win was in was in australia in 1989. according to the incoming chair of uk sport, there are huge concerns about the welfare of athletes. tell us more. dame katherine grainger, 0lympic tell us more. dame katherine grainger, olympic gold medallist, will be the new chair of uk sport

9:14 am

from july. she has given herfirst interview and says she has huge concerns over athlete welfare, and given the recent bullying accusations in several sports, she feels there is a real need for improvement. she has little experience in sports administration, so experience in sports administration, so it was a surprise appointment at a critical time. despite her amazing achievements, in her interview with our sports editor, she says she's very serious about this new role. there i huge concerns about welfare, without a doubt. i think we have to address it. everyone is under pressure, so address it. everyone is under pressure, so athletes want to deliver, coaches want to get results, performance directors, chief executives. there is a situation of, how good can we be and how many medals can we deliver? and the future of our sport is dependent on this. sports are complaining about the funding they have been

9:15 am

receiving, and she says there will bea receiving, and she says there will be a tough financial future ahead, which will be a challenge for all disciplines going forward. a bit of that expectation for tokyo and beyond may have to be curtailed a little bit. thank you. more throughout the morning. labour will ask mps to support elements of its general election manifesto today aimed at increasing public spending. they're doing it by putting forward what's called an amendment to the government's programme for the next few years known as the queen's speech. it will get voted down though because even conservative politicians who support an easing of austerity won't bring down their own government by voting against the queen's speech. a previous labour amendment, on lifting the public sector pay cap, was defeated in the commons last night. but some senior conservatives appear to have signalled that, after seven years, austerity could be coming to an end. a quick reminder of the last chancellor, george osborne, last year spelling out his approach to the public finances in the years

9:16 am

he was in charge of the purse strings. this is the first time this government has announced the difficult decisions on spending. it will not be the last. and that is why the government is asking the public sector to accept a two—year pay freeze. there are big underlying problems we have to fix in our economy. more repairs, more cuts, more difficult decisions. so we may need to undertake further reductions in spending because this country can only afford what it can afford. now contrast that with senior conservative mps and cabinet ministers who — in a series of interviews yesterday — left no doubt as to the government's new approach. we've had to take some tough decisions and in the wake of the general election, we're going to have to think through what we do come the next budget. i think in due course, not immediately but in due course, we will need to consider the question of the public sector pay cap. this is obviously something we have to consider, not just for the army but right across the public sector as a whole.

9:17 am

0ur political guru norman smith is in westminster. is this the end of austerity, norman? it may not be the end of austerity, but i think we are seeing austerity, but i think we are seeing a fundamental change now in the wake of the election, although the government will probably win tonight's queen's speech debate, and they won the vote last night on the paid cap, things have changed pretty fundamentally. what is striking when you listened it for example to yesterday's debate was the number of conservative mps getting up and basically saying this pay cap is unfair, it demoralises staff in the nhs, makes it harder to retain and recruit staff. there is a broader sense among the tories that they cannot carry on with it. we have had pay freezes for seven years now. if you think back to margaret thatcher

9:18 am

when she was prime minister she attempted austerity about two or three years and we have now had seven yea rs. three years and we have now had seven years. this has never been done before. when you listen to george osborne, under his plans we would be carrying on with austerity potentially for another seven years up potentially for another seven years up to the middle 2020s. there is just a recognition that the great british public are weary, they are tired and do not have the stomach for going on with this. and also the sense that the easier cuts in public services have been made. you are now having to make very difficult decisions about how you save money in schools and hospitals, and that austerity, which originally might have been confined to the public sector, or people on benefits, now pretty much every section of society is feeling the squeeze. so i think we will see in the autumn statement the foot taken off the gas of the paid cap and you may see further retreats in other areas of austerity too. austerity is not over but there is no doubt that hammond the

9:19 am

chancellor will take his foot off the gas. diane has tweeted i am an nhs band to work and i get £8 42 per hour and i'm the victim of many assaults at work. imagine how i feel when mps cheer at keeping the cap while giving the dup £1 billion and the queen and 8% rise. mattjones on queen and 8% rise. matt jones on facebook: queen and 8% rise. mattjones on facebook: it is rubbish police and teachers are poorly paid. the nonteaching head of my local comprehensive gets £145,000 a year. sarah james my local comprehensive gets £145,000 a year. sarahjames is a council employee and had her pay frozen for the last seven years. tony babb runs his own recruitment company and is concerned about the potential end of austerity. thorrun govind is a community pharmacist and says she is happy to pay more in tax. in great yarmouth is matt smith, a former ukip councillor who runs his own small business and wants more or continuing austerity. welcome. a quick answerfrom continuing austerity. welcome. a quick answer from all of you, sarah, is it time for the 1% pay cap on

9:20 am

council employees, nurses, teachers, soldiers, firefighters and the police to end? yes. yes. of course the pay cap shouldn't end. absolutely. sarah, you have had this pay freeze for the last seven years. why is it time for it to stop now? seven yea rs why is it time for it to stop now? seven years we have had since 2010, a pay freeze of 0%. 2012, 1%. it's less tha n a pay freeze of 0%. 2012, 1%. it's less than inflation, 2.5% on average per year so we less than inflation, 2.5% on average per year so we are less than inflation, 2.5% on average per year so we are actually having a pay cut. it is getting to the point that it's not right that our nurses and public sector staff i having to rely on food parcels and the lady who tweeted in who said you are getting mps getting their own pay rises, the queen getting a pay rise, public sector workers are the backbone of society. theresa may standing on the door of no 10 saying

9:21 am

we value their service, especially in the last few weeks, they do a great job, in the last few weeks, they do a greatjob, but in the last few weeks, they do a great job, but that in the last few weeks, they do a greatjob, but that doesn't put food in people's stomachs, doesn't put clothes on people's backs and is about time we get decent pay for a decentjob. matt smith, you have clearly said no, it's not time to end the pay freeze. sarah james no, it's not time to end the pay freeze. sarahjames is a council employee, tell her why it isn't the right time. the problem is what you are looking at which is that if you spend more than you earn eventually you will go broke so we have not seen austerity in this country. we have seen a minor reduction of the deficit, the debt is not going down, there are so many more important things that we need to pay for. like what? the institute for fiscal studies said public sector workers earn more than their counterparts in the private sector. we have executives on more pay than the prime minister, locally in norfolk re ce ntly we prime minister, locally in norfolk recently we had an executive get a £250,000 payoff, that is where we should be cutting. i don't think

9:22 am

public sector pay will rise because people in the private sector are not seeing it, certainly not in great yarmouth where i am. like matt, tony, you run your own private company, you say the public sector pay freeze should be relaxed. why? it's a difficult situation we find ourselves in, i'm not wanting to massively sit on the fence but there has to be something done, enough is enough and we have seen that from the general election. people in the public sector, i agree there are inefficiencies in the public sector and the easiest thing to say is freeze the lowest paid workers' increases is simplistic and unfair. that said, i need an answer as to where it comes from because i don't wa nt where it comes from because i don't want to plunge back into the economic dark ages. so you do not wa nt economic dark ages. so you do not want more borrowing to fund this which the institute for fiscal studies said if it was relaxed would

9:23 am

cost over £4 billion extra per year by 2019. that means raising taxes. cost over £4 billion extra per year by 2019. that means raising taxeslj see no other real way of doing it. is that a great idea in itself? do we want to see small and medium businesses crushed and leaving the country? with brexit on everyone's mind and high owners and business owners leaving the country because it's not economically viable for them to stay, that has a knock—on effect as well. you said emphatically you would like to see the paid cap relaxed. tell us about your relationship with the conservative party and how it has changed because of austerity, use a. yes, i was a conservative voter, but u nfortu nately i yes, i was a conservative voter, but unfortunately i feel as a community pharmacist that the conservatives we re pharmacist that the conservatives were not looking after the public. we have had the nurse who spoke to theresa may during the campaign, and

9:24 am

theresa may during the campaign, and theresa may during the campaign, and theresa may said there is no magic money tree. well, the conservative logo is a money tree and it has gone straight to the dup and i'm absolutely appalled at how there has been cuts in the funding to community pharmacy and the nhs, and it's all trickling down to affect the workers. let me pause you there, thorrun. as you the conservative logo is a magic money tree and has gone to the dup. matt smith in great yarmouth raised his eyebrows and shook his head in disagreement. talk to thorrun about that. you are suspending disbelief at the moment. we have not reduced the debt, we have not worked out what we are going to do in the future. veneto thorrun's point was if £1 billion can be traced, whether it's from borrowing or not... the truth is you don't have the money for either of those things. we can'tjust keep

9:25 am

spending money willy—nilly, eventually it will run out, we are increasing the debt. remember in 2010, the secretary to the treasury said we have run out of money. it has been seven years since then, we still don't have any money and we have not paid off the debt will stop what will happen? many politicians are saying we have to take serious action. we have not seen austerity. let me point something out here. with £1 spent in community pharmacy we save the nhs between £21 and £26. sometimes you have to spend a little money to spend a lot of money. that'sjust in one instance. i can't say i know yourjob inside out, i really don't but there is so much spending going on in government and we don't know where it is going. spending going on in government and we don't know where it is goingﬂ is being spent on expenses, so much spent on mp expenses, mp pay rises, not to the people helping to make a difference in this country, the firefighters who ran into the g re nfell firefighters who ran into the grenfell fire, we must respect these

9:26 am

people and make sure they are looked after. 600 odd mps getting a pay rise is in no way equivalent to the amount of money would cost to give a pay rise to every single firefighter, nurse, health worker, anything, you name it. what about the people who work in the private sector that might work in boots, or ina shop sector that might work in boots, or in a shop somewhere else, they are not seen their wages go up particularly because inflation is going up so much. ijust think fundamentally we need to think about the people who are looking after the vulnerable in this country. nurses should not be going to food banks. nurses should not be walking into a pharmacy... that is a lie, somebody sipping champagne in new york is not the sort of woman who needs to user feedback. let me bring sarah back in who is a council employee. have to ask the question, where the money comes from. there are all sorts of choice is the government could make

9:27 am

raising income tax, national insurance, raising vat, although theresa may promised before the election she would not raise the 80 but i do not know where they stand now. they have a deal with the dup. it could be reducing the foreign a budget. it could be not spending money on a chest to. they're all sorts of things. could be borrowing. -- hsz. sorts of things. could be borrowing. —— hs2. where would you like the money to come from to fund a pay rise for public sector workers?m must be costed. there are luxuries that for me is frivolous spending. we don't need it. if you lived in manchester or birmingham, you could say we need that, it is economically important. that is why we select our mps to sit in parliament to make those decisions on our behalf. i work with people coming in asking for help with their rent and council tax costs, so i totally disagree

9:28 am

with what matt said about people not relying on food banks and not relying on food banks and not relying on food banks and not relying on local welfare provision. i see it day in and day out. relying on local welfare provision. i see it day in and day outlj didn't say generally ordinary people, the nurse didn't need that. in terms of that i see it on a daily basis. i'm passionate that we need a pay rise. it is good for the economy. more money in, spending more money, will lower the benefit bill because people will not have to rely on benefits to have housing costs pay for a council tax paid for. that is why i'm passionate about getting the pay rise in place. public sector workers are the backbone of this country. so small businesses. you run and so does matt. you touched on earlier that if taxes were raised that could act as a brake on economic growth. is that a brake on economic growth. is that a worry for you, particularly with brexit negotiations? we have never had a more divisive time van

9:29 am

re ce ntly had a more divisive time van recently in terms of every decision asa yen recently in terms of every decision as a yen and yang to it. what has happened over the last seven years isa happened over the last seven years is a strengthening in the british economy. we have moved forward in terms ofjobs and unemployment, moved forward in terms of growth generally over that period. to jeopardise that is a dangerous affair. businesses do feel the pinch with this sort of thing and we've got to be careful to stimulate growth. a couple more e-mails watching you talk about this around the country. antonia says i am a nurse working in the nhs for the last 13 years and i am disillusioned with the government. i foolishly voted for theresa may in june. government. i foolishly voted for theresa may injune. i could kick myself, i struggle every month as my salary shrinks year—on—year. it makes a difference to my salary which is eaten up with more national insurance, tax and pension. i have signed up with a nursing baby dummett agency to top of my wages paying an extra £10 and now more than i received with the nhs. paul

9:30 am

says i believe the good way to put money into the health service would be to charge £10 for a doctor's visit. i have to pay to see the dentist and optician. would it be fairto dentist and optician. would it be fair to visit the doctor and paid? thank you for one of those? thank you forjoining us. i appreciate your time. your views are welcome, particularly if you work in the public sector, or not. what you think about whether, as norman was saying, there are moves within government to perhaps relax it when it comes to the autumn budget statement? still to come: we will hear from the parents of the 21—year—old man who became known as jihadis jack after travelling to syria, about the last time they spoke to their son and their efforts to get him back to the uk. and we have the latest developments as the government is to rule this morning on whether to give the green light to rupert murdoch's proposed ta keover of to rupert murdoch's proposed takeover of sky. time for the latest news headlines.

9:31 am

a retired court of appealjudge has been appointed to lead the enquiry into the grenfell tower fire. police say that at least 80 people are now known to have died, but the final death toll will not be known until at least the end of the year. theresa may will face a major test of whether she has enough authority to stay in power as mps vote on the queen's speech later today. with the support of the democratic unionists the government is expected to pass its plans for the next parliament, after narrowly surviving a vote last night on changes to public sector pay. jeremy corbyn is calling on mps to support his plans for the economy and brexit. police in australia have charged one of the most senior roman catholic cardinals, george pell, with sexually abusing children.

9:32 am

cardinal pell is in charge of the vatican's finances and is considered to rank third in the hierarchy of the church. he is accused of multiple offences dating back to the 1970s — charges he's strenuously denied. talks over resuming power—sharing at stormont remain stalled , with only hours to go until the deadline. if no deal is reached to restore the devolved government by four this afternoon, northern ireland faces the prospect of direct rule from london. the culture and media secretary, karen bradley, will announce today whether 21st century fox, which is owned by rupert murdoch, will be allowed to take over sky. the deal, which has been cleared by european commisision competition authorities, would give mr murdoch total control of the broadcaster — he already owns 39% of the company. 0pponents say any deal will give him too much power in the uk media. that's a summary of the latest bbc news — more at 10.00. hugh's back now with the sports headlines. warren gatland has made some tough

9:33 am

calls in terms of the line—up for the starting 15 against new zealand. campbell —— sam warburton comes into the pack. 0wen farrell will start at inside centre, and jonny sexton has been named as fly—half. jadejones remains been named as fly—half. jade jones remains on been named as fly—half. jadejones remains on course to com plete jadejones remains on course to complete a career grand slam of major tae kwon do titles as she reached the semifinals in south korea. she is guaranteed at least a world bronze. dame katherine grainger is the incoming chair of uk sport, and she says she has concerns about the welfare of athletes given the number of sport bodies facing bullying accusations. that's all for now. we'll be back

9:34 am

just after 10am. a 21—year—old man from oxford, who travelled to the so—called islamic state—controlled area of syria in 2014, says he's now being held by kurdish forces fighting the group. jack letts, dubbed "jihadijack", is suspected of going to syria to fight for so—called islamic state — he claims he is opposed to is and has left that area. his parents — who have pleaded not guilty to charges of funding terrorism after being accused of sending cash to their son — are calling on the british authorities to do "whatever they can" to help him. we spoke to sally and john letts recently and they told me about the last time they spoke to jack letts. it was about two weeks ago now. up until that point, we'd been having reasonably regular contact with him. about every other day, we were speaking to him for about two hours in the evening. and then, as of last thursday, all contact stopped. so we're not, we don't know

9:35 am

what's going on now. where is he? erm, he's in protective custody in, erm, the kurdish controlled area of northern syria. so, he's been able to tell us where he is and who he is with, the group that he is with. and, erm, we've been trying to contact the foreign office to help us, you know, get him out, really. protective custody, does that mean jail? what does that mean? he's been, he was being held in a prison but he said he hadn't actually been arrested and they were doing it to protect him, treating him very, very well. they being the ypg? this is this group of fighters who oppose isis, who fight isis effectively? that's right. they had told him they were very impressed that he had, one, managed to escape, that they had looked into him and they were going to take good care of him. they said he could stay

9:36 am

in the kurdish region but that, i mean, isis is still operating in the area and presumably others. so, but where he actually is right now, since we haven't heard in two weeks, it is obviously a little... we're not sure. it is a very volatile region. so that is what is worrying us hugely. when you were having those long phone conversations from this, from wherever he is in northern syria, what was he saying to you? erm, he was, he was wondering what was going to happen to him next because it was very difficult for him to escape from where he was. he was in a very dangerous part of syria. and we thought that now he had finally made it out of isis—controlled territory that that would be it, that he would be able to, be able to come home. erm, and we have been told by the british authorities that as soon as he makes it out of isis controlled territory, that they would be able to help us. but, erm, no help has

9:37 am

been forthcoming so far, even though we've known where he is since, well, it's been a month now. you will know that your son told channel 4 news he opposes a non—islamic system. what does that mean? well, you know, he definitely is muslim. and i don't think that's a crime. and he, i think he was taken by, as many were that went out, by the idea of creating this utopian muslim society. i do think he probably believed that and probably still believes that. there's a big difference from being muslim, as everybody knows, and being an extremist, violent, who wants to impose it. he said he didn't agree with a lot of what islamic state follow. what might he agree with? well, i think it would be great to have him back here to answer those questions himself. i think he should be sitting here and talking to you and accounting for himself. i can't account for all ofjack's

9:38 am

movements for three years. i mean, we had no idea he was going there, and he was 18 when he went. i mean, i made a lot of stupid mistakes when i was 18. i think we all do. it is kind of like a rather extensive gap year. that's a heck of a... imean... 0h, iagree. to go to syria. when he went out there initially, it was all about assad. it was, it was, a part of the uprising against assad, you know, the civil war then, it was part of the arab spring. jack went out to the region in may 2014. to learn arabic in kuwait. we had no idea, obviously. yeah, and before he went, he was very upset about the syrian situation. i mean, it was known at 11,000 people had been killed in assad's jails. i mean, 11,000 people. we neverfor a minute thought that he would go out there, to syria. we tried to get him out with official permission. you know, we tried all the routes.

9:39 am

we cooperated fully with the police. i fully understand how difficult it is for the police in this situation and i support that. i want law and order in our society. i don't want... i want to walk the streets safely when my relatives are here, my friends. i've been here for a long, long time. you know, we all want to walk the streets safely. i don't have an issue with that. but he has questions to answer, that's absolutely fine. if he's back, we've always said, you know, hand yourself over to the british once you get out and i'd be the first to ask him questions. i don't have any problem with that. but, you know, you are, ithought, innocent until proven guilty. and, and, i think if he is questioned, he can talk about it but how would my going to find direct evidence... but i know my son. i've known him for many years. and what he tells me i assess and i think that everything makes sense from what he has been telling us for two and a half years. when you got the call, i think it was you, sally, from jack, saying he was in syria, this was 2014. isis were known in 2014.

9:40 am

what, what did you say to each other? what did you think? what was going through your head when you realised where he was? absolutely horrified. i mean, i was screaming at him on the phone, how could he be so utterly stupid? and then, and then the line went dead. so, erm, and then he did not contact us again for another three weeks. and in those three weeks, erm, we spent every single minute trying to contact whoever we could, trying to get help. so everybody from journalists, to charities, to prevent, organisations, youth workers who work with prevent and then we did a lot of our own reading about who, and who he could possibly be with. at some point, you sent him money. we tried to. but it was blocked by the police. and...

9:41 am

you tried to send £1700 or something? well, we tried to send money and it got blocked, we tried again and it got blocked. so the total sum we tried to send is that amount. and then we were, we were actually charged with the offences. and then you were arrested on the grounds that the money you were transferring, trying to transfer, may have been used to fund terrorism? what happened to you both after being arrested ? erm, there was a period before they, the cps decided whether we would be charged or not. and then we were. we were refused bail at the magistrates‘ court and put on remand for five days but that got, that got overturned on appeal. but since the arrest, what has been the impact on both of your lives? clearly, five days in jail is not what you would have wanted, necessarily. what was that like? after we were arrested, the first thing was, we had to sign in at the police

9:42 am

station every day. and then we had a curfew between midnight and 6am. every time the doorbell rings, it is the police, it is journalists or somebody. so that was... it's been really difficult, very stressful. and how has your son reacted to the... because of his actions, what has happened to you in the meantime? we haven't really been able to talk too much to him about it. i mean, we really want to see him face—to—face. i think he doesn't like the idea. now... he doesn't like the idea of what? what has happened to you? well, when he was inside, he couldn't really speak very openly. but he's been out for a while. yeah, we've had a little chat and i think he thinks that's horrible, that the system should not be doing this to us. but... the system? what about what he's done and the impact it had both of you? yeah, it's been horrible and extremely upsetting. but is he sad about that? has he shown any remorse? well, i think i'd like him to sit here and you can ask him that himself but i'm sure he does to a degree. i don't know how to answer that. you don't sound very convinced,

9:43 am

if you don't mind me saying. well, i don't know how to answer that because i haven't had that extended discussion with him. "jack, do you feel really upset at what that has caused to us?" yeah, i think he is upset by that but he's also motivated by his own internal things and what can i do? he's a 21—year—old, quite confident, arrogant, you know, pig—headed lad. of which there are many. and on a phone call, on a crackly line, it is really hard to have an in—depth conversation about how upset his parents are with him. how did you feel when you read the statement your son had given where he said he hated you, his parents, for the sake of allah, hated you his parents, for the sake of allah because you are non—believers and called on you to convert to islam? yes, i've thought about that. i, i haven't tackled him directly about it. a lot of those strange things that jack has said in interviews or sometimes on facebook, sometimes, we've wondered, is it, is he being forced to say these things? is he in a situation where people are overhearing what he is saying and he has to, in order to kind of save his

9:44 am

life, he has to sort of say certain things? and you could... sometimes he would write messages that he wouldn't say out loud. so he would say certain things out loud that sounded strange. and i thought, he's in an internet cafe, he's being overheard, he's having to say these things, and then what he really thought, he would send in a text message, during the same conversation. a lot of the religious things he said would be said out loud. he narrowly survived an air strike with just a scratch. he said, "i'm not afraid of death. i'm not worried. everyone is going to die on their day, whether it is by a drone strike, a muslim understands that that his life is between the hands of allah so if they want to bomb me, they'll bomb me". yeah, i've heard a lot of christians say that same message. but what do you think about the fact he was almost killed? oh, it's terrifying. we've been living with this for three years, every day. you're waiting for a phone call saying your son's been killed. it's a horrible thing to think of. our home affairs correspondent has been in touch with

9:45 am

your son via whatsapp. he reports that it appears jack has little desire to come back to the uk. erm, yes. and he has said all along that he... well, he wants to get out of where he is. we want to get him to a safe place. we would like him to come back to the uk but, erm, i don't think he would be, i don't think he would be happy here. i think he wants to live in an islamic country. he has been told where he is being held at the moment that he would be released to the british so i think he's resigned himself to the fact that he will come back here for questioning. and i think ideally, that would happen. he would be able to tell his side of the story. he wouldn't be on the run for the rest of his life and then, once he's cleared his name, then he can live his life as he chooses, probably, in his mind, in an islamic country.

9:46 am

in your heart of hearts, do you think you will see your son again? well, i think since he's been... since, well, isuppose a month... well, up until then, we thought, we didn't know he was going to survive. the odds against him surviving were probably quite slim. whereas now, we think, yeah, he is alive, he has survived, miraculously, and we will see him again. i hope so. it's pretty hard to let go of that idea but there were many times when i reached the point where i thought, no, that's it. and you know, he was such a funny boy and such a nice kid, really, he would bend over backwards to help people all the time. you must have had conversations about, what could we have done differently? was it something to do with the way we brought him up? constantly.

9:47 am

for three years, you're constantly looking out, "what did i do wrong? what kind of a father was i? did i not do this enough? did i not spend enough time with him? " i spent a lot of time with him and there was nothing there that made me think that the media stereotype of him, you know, that that would create that. and i don't believe that media stereotype. i never have. were you too soft on him? i was really strict on him. we didn't hit him. whatever discipline you can do, yeah, we were really strict on him. but strict in terms of behaviour, like, respect of women, treating people fairly. that is how i was raised, in a very multicultural society, where we had a lot of tolerance for people. you know, i think the values i was raised with as a canadian are shared by the british. 0k. the queen is on our bills so i share the same british values. and he was raised with those values and i think he still probably has them. but let's have a bit of tolerance. i don't see much of it. i think it is rapidly disappearing. thank you both very much for talking to us. thank you. the foreign office says: "the uk advises against all travel to syria and parts of iraq. as all uk consular services are suspended in syria

9:48 am

and greatly limited in iraq, it is extremely difficult to confirm the whereabouts and status of british nationals in these areas." still to come before ten o'clock. been credible account of the british transport police offers a faced all three of the london bridge terrorists during their rampage and tells the bbc how the condon printed —— confronted them armed only with a baton. the government is to rule later this morning on whether to give the green light to rupert murdoch's proposed takeover of sky. 0pponents say it will give him too much power in the media. we can speak now to rachel cunliffe, who is comment and features editor at city am, a business newspaper ‘with personality‘ it says on its website; and dr evan harris, joint chief executive of the campaign group hacked 0ff, an organisation that campaigns

9:49 am

for what it calls a ‘free and accountable press'. rachel, what's going on? this is mostly about rupert murdoch trying to grow his media empire and obtain full control over sky. this is a little bit confusing because rupert murdoch owns fox, the company tried to ta ke murdoch owns fox, the company tried to take over sky but sky is very much associated with the murder can buy so he is very much on both sides. fox owns 39% over sky at the moment and they are trying to obtain the other 61% of shares in a deal worth £11.7 billion. this has made a lot of people very upset. and here is one of them. there are rules in this country that say broadcast media is very sensitive because it reaches into people's houses and therefore it not only ought to be able to reality, a range of views, they must not be political control in this country like there is in the

9:50 am

united states. so we need to have that plurality, but share of ownership. many voices, in other words. bbc, itv and the sky, separate from newspapers. which we would still have if 21st—century fox took over the whole of sky. the worry is if sky news had the same editorial line influenced indirectly by rupert murdoch, the owner of the sun newspaper, the sunday times and the times, it's too much for somebody who gets to meet prime minister whenever he wants. newspaper circulation is falling. minister whenever he wants. newspaper circulation is fallingm is growing online. the overall share for those newspapers are still the highest and very high. that is your main worry? that is not the main worry. i thought you might have started with the main worry. the order in which rachel raised it. the main worry is whetherjames murdoch isa main worry is whetherjames murdoch is a fit and proper person for corporate governance. rupert murdoch's son? yes, he would be the chairman of sky and the 100% owner

9:51 am

of sky because he's the chief executive of 215t—ce ntury of sky because he's the chief executive of 215t—century fox which would be the owning, holding companies and he would be running it. whether it is appropriate in terms of corporate governance for somebody like him who is alleged to have been involved in covering up extensive criminal wrongdoing at the news of the world. alleged. it is alleged. innocent until proven otherwise. yes, we want the truth. you may rememberand otherwise. yes, we want the truth. you may remember and your viewers will, the leveson inquiry was set up to look at this, one part was going to look at this, one part was going to get the truth, had to be delayed until after criminal trials, which is right, you do not want it public and to make those trials unfair. this secretary of state sitting in judgment on this bid has delayed the second part of that inquiry and has announced an intention to stop it looking at whether there was a cover—up and whether it was police corruption. it is astonishing that secretary of state would on one side of the bid... it feels like we have

9:52 am

had dozens of inquiries... i don't wa nt to had dozens of inquiries... i don't want to go over old ground. in terms of the culture secretary today, karen bradley, the decision she makes is whether to give the go—ahead to rupert murdoch and his ta keover of go—ahead to rupert murdoch and his takeover of the whole of sky, or to pushit takeover of the whole of sky, or to push it on for further investigation. things she can do if she decides not to wave it ahead. 0ne she decides not to wave it ahead. one of them as she can move it on to the competition and markets authority which will do an in—depth investigation over six months, really looking into in particular the media plurality issues and whether giving too much broadcasting and media power to one company had one family is against the public interest. the other thing that she could do which is less extreme than thatis could do which is less extreme than that is say, yes, but with certain caveats, and those would include things like spinning off sky news and making sure that that keeps its editorial integrity, which i think is very much an issue for british viewers who don't want to see our broadcasters going down the route of something like fox news, which i think is very unpopular in britain.

9:53 am

what does hacked 0ff want?|j think is very unpopular in britain. what does hacked off want? i think it's likely if 0fcom say there are issues that she will say i am willing to accept undertakings, promises from the murdochs but i don't think they are worth the tabloid newsprint they are written on. we cannot find a single example of the murdochs keeping to the promises they made. they promised that the times editor would be independent. we know that successive editors have been sacked. they could be sanctions in place. they do not appear to be sanctions in place. they do not appearto be. rupert be sanctions in place. they do not appear to be. rupert murdoch has the ability to see a prime minister like theresa may whenever he wants in secret meetings. the fox people have met the chancellor or prime minister ten times in just met the chancellor or prime minister ten times injust a met the chancellor or prime minister ten times in just a short 15 met the chancellor or prime minister ten times injust a short 15 month period, more than any other private company. people can make up their own minds. i'm not sure that is right. had there not been this camp done continuous campaign of support for this government by this newspaper who knows what the result would have been. the concern is it

9:54 am

must be done properly and he seemed to be done properly and we need the truth before these people are allowed more power. thank you for joining us. we will get the decision today. there you are. we will bring you the statement on the news channel and we expect at 11:30am. the first police officer to face all three london bridge attackers during their rampage has been speaking out. pc wayne marques describes confronting them armed only with a baton and how he tried to leave his last messages for his family after he was injured. this guy is on the floor, pleading for his life. the first attacker, without any mercy, stands over him and continues attacking him. i take my baton with my right hand, i rack it, full extension, i take a deep breath, and i charge him. i try to take the first one out in one go. i swung as hard as i can,

9:55 am

everything behind it. i'm aiming straight for his head, and i'm swinging like that, in horizontal motion, straight for his head. then, while i am fighting the first one, i get a massive whack to the right side of my head. it felt metal. i thought maybe it was a metal pole or bar at first. afterwards, i realised it was a knife that the second one hit me with. as soon as i get the whack on the side of my head, my right eye goes dark, vision goes completely out of it. and i am staring at them with one eye, the baton in my hand, and the three of them are staring at me. and we are in like some kind of like mexican stand—off, it's almost like a surreal cowboy movie, getting ready to draw. and i'm just getting ready for them to rush me. we were staring at each other for anywhere between ten and 30 seconds.

9:56 am

i couldn't tell you why we were staring at each other. maybe they were waiting for me to go down or to bleed out. but all i know is i was staring at them, i was going towards them but i wasn't backing down, either. and they were staring at me. but for some reason, they didn't come to rush me. the officer that's holding my hand, i call his name two, three times, and he lowers the radio and comes in close. i've got blood in my mouth. i remember spitting it out, so i could get my message out. i started giving him my last messages to my family, my partner. he's like, "no, mate, you are going to do it yourself". i said his name one more time and said, "listen, just do it, just do it,

9:57 am

just give it". and as i was saying that, the last little bit of light went, and that was it, i was out. but i still think about the eight people that i wasn't able to help. had i got there sooner, i don't know. i got there at the time that i did. but i would just like to think that i did what i did to keep the people that i saw being attacked and being hurt, keep them alive, keep them out of danger as best i could. pc wayne marques. still to come in the next hour, we get the reaction to the expected appointment of a retired court of appealjudge to leave the public inquiry into the grenfell fire. in a

9:58 am

few minutes the latest news and sport but the weather is next with sarah keith—lucas. we have lots of rain in the forecast in the next 24 hours, we can have a breakfrom in the next 24 hours, we can have a break from watering the garden is in the next couple of days as things look unsettled. we have some heavy rain across parts of scotland. this is the scene in kingspan in fife coming in from one of our weather watchers. we have persistent rain and this radar picture shows the rain across scotland and northern england. it's not raining everywhere, we have some glimmers of sunshine breaking through the cloud in felixstowe in suffolk will stop here is how it is looking there. some blue sky, a little sunshine but across many parts of the country it's cloudy and pretty damp. heavy rain across the north—east of england into south—east scotland, difficult driving conditions with a lot of water and spray on the roads. that rain will edge into northern ireland with drizzling rain for parts of wales and south—west

9:59 am

england. this is 4pm, mostlyjuly, still through parts of the midlands, the south—east of england and east anglia. 19 or 20 degrees where you see brightness breaking through the cloud, not much brightness further north, drizzling rain continuing for northern england, northern ireland, scotland, not just the northern england, northern ireland, scotland, notjust the rain causing problems but brisk winds from the north—east. with the wind and rain it feels cool, just 13 or 14 degrees. moving through into the evening and overnight we will keep the rain over parts of scotland, northern england, northern ireland, wales and south—west and it will ease in intensity. the rain not as heavy overnight temperatures in glasgow, 13 degrees, not different from the daytime maximum temperature. through the day tomorrow a similar day, again quite cloudy, drizzling rain across north and western parts of the country, the format as heavy but we could see scattered showers developing towards

10:00 am

the south—east and perhaps the odd rumble of thunder. it looks like an improving picture heading towards the weekend. we will start to see this weather front moving south—east and a rich of high—pressure moving in behind which will quieten things down. perhaps some rain in the far south—east at first on saturday and a little rain in the far north—west but for much of the country, not a bad day, temperatures up to 23 degrees where the sunnier spells and lighter winds during the weekend too, that theme continuing into sunday. another largely dry day with high—pressure, a few showers in the north—west, feeling pleasant, temperatures around where they should be this time of year, 23 degrees. hello, good morning. i'm victoria derbyshire. welcome to the programme. a retired judge, sir martin moore—bick, will lead the inquiry into the grenfell tower fire. we'll ask if his appointment will lead to the survivors and residents of north kensington getting the answers they need. when we're talking about this public inquiry, there's moves already being made. this public inquiry has already started but we haven't even been

10:01 am

given the opportunity to come together as one yet. we need and demand to be part of every single decision made in that public inquiry. we've heard exclusively from the parents of a 21—year—old — who became known asjihadi jack after travelling to syria — about their efforts to bring him home. we thought now he'd finally made it out of isis—controlled territory that he'd be able to come home. you can see the full version of the interview our programme page at bbc.co.uk/victoria. and a baby boy was circumcised without his mother's consent — she spent four years trying to get the authorities to take action, and we will bring you her story. good morning. here's annita in the bbc newsroom with a summary of today's news.

10:02 am

a retired court of appealjudge is today expected to be appointed to lead the public enquiry into the g re nfell tower lead the public enquiry into the grenfell tower disaster. sir martin moore bic spent more than 20 years asa moore bic spent more than 20 years as a commercialjudge and that the court of appeal until his retirement last year. the news came after police said at least 80 people were now believed to have died in the top... fire, but the final death toll is not expected to be known until the end of the year. theresa may will face a major test of whether she has enough authority to stay in power as mps vote on the queen's speech later today. with the support of the democratic unionists, the government is expected to pass its plans for the next parliament, after narrowly surviving a vote last night on changes to public sector pay. jeremy corbyn is calling on mps to support his plans for the economy and brexit. police in australia have charged one of the most senior roman catholic cardinals, george pell, with sexually abusing children. cardinal pell is in charge of the vatican's finances

10:03 am

and is considered to rank third in the hierarchy of the church. he is accused of multiple offences dating back to the 1970s — charges he's strenuously denied. i am looking forward finally to having my day in court. i am innocent of these charges. they are false. the whole idea of sexual abuse is abhorrent to me. talks over resuming power—sharing at stormont remain stalled, with only hours to go until the deadline. if no deal is reached to restore the devolved government by 4pm this afternoon, northern ireland faces the prospect of direct rule from london. it will be announced today whether

10:04 am

zist it will be announced today whether 21st in the fox, owned by rupert murdoch, can be taken —— can take over sky. 0pponents say any deal will give him too much power in the uk media. a mother has described the distress of finding out her baby son had been circumcised without her consent. she has tried to get the authorities to ta ke has tried to get the authorities to take action for four years. the boy was circumcised in 2013 when he was a p pa re ntly was circumcised in 2013 when he was apparently staying with his paternal grandparents. three people have been arrested on suspicion of grievous bodily harm with intent. more on this story shortly. victoria will speak to a representative from the campaign group men do complain. . i'll be back at half past ten. do get in touch with the programme.

10:05 am

let's get more from hugh woozencroft now at the bbc sport centre. warren gatland has made several changes to his team ahead of the second test against new zealand in wellington on saturday. he knows that anything other than a win means they won't win this series. sam warburton replaces peter 0'mahoney in the back row. george cruise drops out altogether. courtney lawes is on the bench. 0wen farrell has a start at inside centre, linking up with jonny sexton, who will start at fly—half. jonny sexton, who will start at fly-half. they haven't started together, but they have had quite a bit of time together. their combination against the crusaders was good, and they had a bit of time together last week as well. it gives

10:06 am

us together last week as well. it gives us two more kicking options on the right foot. and we have left foot options with jonathan right foot. and we have left foot options withjonathan davies and elliot daly as well. we are happy with the mix. dame katherine grainger will officially become the new chair of uk sport in july, officially become the new chair of uk sport injuly, but in herfirst interview, she has told the bbc she has huge concerns over athlete welfare, given the recent bullying accusations in several sports. there are concerns, without a doubt. i don't think anyone is pretending that aren't. i think we have to address it. everyone is under pressure, so address it. everyone is under pressure, so athletes want to deliver, coaches are under pressure, performance executives and chief executives. there is a situation of, how good can we be and how many medals can we deliver? and the future of our sport is dependent on this. jadejones is this. jade jones is on this. jadejones is on course to win an

10:07 am

impressive career grand slam of titles in tae kwon do. she got into the semifinals in south korea. that guarantees are at least a bronze. she has never won a gold before in the competition. her team—mates, bradley sinden, is also guaranteed at least bronze. i am buzzing with my performance. it was a real mental battle today. i think people don't realise how hard it is, being on the top, and then people say, you always go out in the quarters. it is hard, being expected to be performed, and iamjust being expected to be performed, and i am just happy that it shows that when my mind is on it i can be mentally strong. leading jockey michelle payne has been banned for four weeks for taking a banned substance. she is the only female jockey to win the prestigious melbourne cup, and she took a weight suppressant. she

10:08 am

pleaded guilty at her enquiry and said she took full responsibility for her actions. that is all for now, more later in the hour. a retired high courtjudge has been appointed to lead the inquiry into the grenfell tower fire — and he's making the headlines already because of what the times calls his controversial record in housing cases. we'll bring you some facts about him in a moment. yesterday in our programme back in north kensington some grenfell tower survivors and residents talked about their faith in the forthcoming inquiry. and what needed to be change when it came to listening to their views. you talk about trust and trying to rebuild trust, and the importance of that. these people wrote to the prime minister the day before yesterday to ask and make requests about the public enquiry. the prime minister didn't reply to that letter. the prime minister went to the daily telegraph and told them

10:09 am

she wasn't going to uphold one of the requests in that letter, so how can you talk about trust being rebuilt? were talking about written, a powerful country, here. we're talking about the law. that has to be changed right now. procedure has to be changed right now. this is not going to take a few shows or meetings, this is years of work. this is years of work. i'm told the housing minister is here, and he has agreed to be with us today after pressure from residents, so i know you have questions for him. hello. hi, i'm victoria. take a seat. thank you very much for giving us your time. please, stop hiding from us. it is international now. stop hiding. iwant it is international now. stop hiding. i want everything in the table, black and white. —— on the

10:10 am

table. there are moves already being made, public all right —— the public enquiry has already started, and we need and demand to be part of every single decision made in that public enquiry. it is worth letting you know that the housing minister who was sent to our programme after an earlier decision that no one would be available, he spent many hours talking to residents in private after our programme came off air. so what do we know about the retired appeal courtjudge who's been chosen to lead the public inquiry into the grenfell disaster? sir martin moore—bick, who's 70, was born in wales and educated at cambridge. he specialised in commercial law before spending more than twenty years as a judge at the high court and the court of appeal. council, allowing them to rehouse a single mother of five, living with hiv and diabetes, some 50 miles away near milton keynes.

10:11 am

at the time her lawyer described the decision as "social cleansing of the poor". the ruling was later overturned by the supreme court. he also ruled that a chinese—born man who tied up and robbed two women in their home could be deported, even though he had british—born children. married with four children, his brother is retired army generaljohn moore—bick. who's who lists his interests as "early music, gardening and reading". clive coleman explained the significance of the appointment. he has a classic cv of a successful court of appealjudge. he was called to the bar in 1986, served as a deputy high court judge to the bar in 1986, served as a deputy high courtjudge and was then a high court judge, deputy high courtjudge and was then a high courtjudge, serving mainly in the commercial court, meaning he dealt with technical engineering evidence in many cases, which is a

10:12 am

qualification for grenfell. he was appointed to the court of appeal in 2005 and retired last year. for the last two years of that period he was vice president of the court of appeal‘s civil division. he is married with children and is an establishment figure, and his brother is a retired general. why is he described in one newspaper today as controversial? he went to the court of appeal in 2005, and he left last year, so he was there for 11 yea rs or last year, so he was there for 11 years or so. last year, so he was there for 11 years or so. this morning in the newspapers, one of his cases has been picked up, a case in 2014 where he oversaw a ruling where a woman who lived in westminster, a single mother with five children, was rehoused by the council some 50 miles away, in bletchley near milton keynes. she disputed that decision, said it was a new —— unlawful. when it got to the court of appeal, he had to scrutinise whether the

10:13 am

decision taken by westminster council, and councils can rehouse people out of area in certain circumstances, was lawful, and he decided it was. the reason the case is being looked at is an illustration or perhaps some controversy. some people are nodding at that as perhaps a perceived bias against vulnerable families. everyone i have spoken to has said, look at the entire career. this was one decision where he was applying the law. after the case, the solicitor said: thejudgment the law. after the case, the solicitor said: the judgment could have dire consequences for vulnerable families across the country. he said, it gives the green light for councils to engage in social cleansing of the poor on a mass scale. when you have comments like that, you can see why some people would think that is a controversialjudge in relation to this particular enquiry. what about the terms of reference of the enquiry — who decides that?m

10:14 am

the terms of reference of the enquiry - who decides that? it will be decided by the government. let me say why i think they have picked this particularjudge. first, he has beenin this particularjudge. first, he has been in the commercial court. as a barrister, he was involved in shipping cases where he would have had to deal with complex engineering matters — wire ship sank, for instance. although they are different in nature, they are similar in terms of complexity, and you need a judge you can get their head around that. you also need a judge who will be good in communicating with the families, empathetic. heather hallett got a lot of plaudits for how she handled the 7/7 enquiry because of her emotional intelligence, if you like, and how she dealt sensitively with theissues and how she dealt sensitively with the issues and the families, and you need that as well. i have spoken to friends, lawyers who know martin moore bick, and they say he is a person of unfailing courtesy, and

10:15 am

one who will listen, and he will change his mind if he finds evidence that the decision he has taken is the wrong one. we can speak tojo maugham qc, a barrister and director of the good law project, who has been providing free legal support for victims of the fire since last week. hello to you. have you heard of sir martin moore pick, and if you haven't, does it matter? it doesn't matter. the government is fishing in a very shallow pool of candidates. they are all white and come from privileged backgrounds. judicial diversity is fundamentally nonexistent, so the government in circumstances like this has to communicate to victims at grenfell why it has chosen this particular person. if you are a victim, you wa nt to person. if you are a victim, you want to hear from the government what question they have asked that has sir martin as the answer. you can't take too much from focusing on

10:16 am

particular decisions that a judge has made, looked at in isolation. we don't know about other cases where sirmartin don't know about other cases where sir martin may have decided and they we re sir martin may have decided and they were favourable to those who would seek rehousing. i am distracted, there is a fire alarm. i can hear that. where are you? i am in a studio at millbank. if you want to leave, please do. ithink it studio at millbank. if you want to leave, please do. i think it has stopped. on our programme yesterday, we heard a lot about trust, this trust and a lack of faith in the establishment, from politicians right through. some kind of government statement, then, which is what you have suggested, would seem to be the least that should be done here to explain this decision. i think that's right. i think what

10:17 am

people want is to be heard, your viewers will have heard that from the clips played just before i came on air. people will want to feel they are involved in the process. is there going to be discussion on the g re nfell there going to be discussion on the grenfell community leaders about the nature of reference, are the residents of grenfell tower, family members of the victims of the disaster going to be consulted on the choice of barrister who represents families and victims in the inquiry? is government really going to think about the difficulties that families of g re nfell fa ce difficulties that families of grenfell face in trusting an establishment that we know has let them down? that is fundamentally the problem. what you've got a hope is the government really focuses on that. these inquiries that have the capacity to heal also have the capacity to heal also have the capacity to heal also have the capacity to exacerbate harm and distrust. i desperately hope that is not what happens here. briefly, tell us not what happens here. briefly, tell us about some of the com obviously without giving private details, but

10:18 am

some of the areas you are helping local people with. the particular issue i have been focused on is helping in particular muslim families recover the bodies of family members who died in the tragedy. the police have been conducting, quite properly, a very careful and methodical exercise in trying to establish exactly what happened. but particularly if you area happened. but particularly if you are a muslim family or a jewish family, it's important to get the remains backwardly. i'm not always convinced the police have been holding those two issues in proper balance. so, certainly overthe weekend i threatened the metropolitan police with court proceedings and that caused the police to release a body that they had previously said was not available on the monday and i am now working with another family in relation to a very similar case. so

10:19 am

that threat of court proceedings led to the outcome that your family needed? that's certainly what the family think and for what it's worth it's what i think is well. thank you very much. jo maugham, qc, who is a barrister and director of the good law project. i think it has just been confirmed, bear with me, i am just getting on my tablet, that sir martin moore—bick is going to lead this public inquiry. theresa mayjustin —— just confirmed it, it will be led by martin moore—bick. adding, we must get to the truth of what happened, no stone will be left unturned by this inquiry. theresa may says we must get to the truth of what happened, no stone will be left unturned by this inquiry hachette confirms the employment of the retired judge sir martin moore—bick

10:20 am

to lead the investigation. mother talks of the dramatic moment she discovered her baby son had been circumcised without her consent. we will bring you this story. a court ruling is due in northern ireland this morning over the strict abortion laws there. unlike the rest of the uk abortion is illegal in almost all circumstance in northern ireland. campaigners hope the ruling will be a step towards changing the law so women can have abortions in cases of rape, incest or fatal foetal abnormality. 0ur reporter catrin nye is here. what's the law in northern ireland at the moment? like you said, the law in northern ireland is completely different from the rest of the uk, much stricter, abortion is illegal in all most all circumstances the only time it is possible this when a woman's life is at risk or there is a serious or permanent risk to her mental or physical health. that means every year hundreds of women travel from

10:21 am

northern ireland over to other parts of the uk to access abortion services. that costs them money, they have to pay to travel and pay for the abortion services. campaigners argue that means that the very poorest women in northern ireland can't get abortions. someone women risked prosecution by taking abortion pills. just last week a cross— party abortion pills. just last week a cross—party group of mps called on the uk government to allow women from northern ireland to access abortion care in england and wales. what is this court case about? faces an appeal court case, an appeal courtjudgment that faces an appeal court case, an appeal court judgment that we faces an appeal court case, an appeal courtjudgment that we are waiting for, and it concerns abortions in circumstances of incest, rape and fatal foetal abnormality, where a baby will not survive outside pregnancy. this is an appeal court judgment because survive outside pregnancy. this is an appeal courtjudgment because in 2015 the high court ruled that abortion laws in northern ireland do breach women's human rights, and the judge said they should be allowed in

10:22 am

the circumstances. but that was appealed and today we are waiting for the appeal courtjudgment. i've beenin for the appeal courtjudgment. i've been in belfast and met a woman at the centre of the case. she is called sarah and it was the circumstances of her pregnancy that meant she became involved in this court case. hi. hi, i'm sarah. hi, sarah, catrin. hi, nice to meet you. come on in. thank you. hello. this is my mum, jane. hi,jane. i'm catrin. nice to meet you. 0h, you've got a brew on. it was just a few weeks after sarah ewart‘s wedding that she found out she was pregnant. it was all planned and she was delighted. everybody had talked about the 3d scans and we thought, we want to see the baby in 3d. it was private, it wasn't at our hospital. the sonographer had put the baby on the screen, she had started on the feet, legs, oh, you're having a wee girl, then she went up

10:23 am

the body and when she got to the baby's head, there was nothing from above the baby's eyes, basically. there was no skull or brain formation. sarah's baby had anencephaly which occurs in about six of every 10,000 births. there is no treatment and babies with it die before they're born or shortly after birth. and this is your scan that you got? yes. the skull wasn't formed. there was nothing above that. it should be round and it wasn't. so the baby wasn't going to be able to survive. as soon as it was cut from me, when the umbilical cord was cut, that's when baby would have passed away. when i realised the baby wasn't going to survive and how bad the condition was, i thought that i couldn't continue on for nine months, people asking me, when are you due? what's your nursery setup? did you know what you were having?

10:24 am

to not have a baby at the end of it, ijust felt like i couldn't go through with that. we didn't call it an abortion, we said we wanted a medical termination and that's what it is. and they said, sorry, we can't help you. and we were absolutely shocked. we were like, what do you mean you can't help? they said, sorry, with the law here, we can't help you. you'd have to go abroad, you know, go across the water. unlike the rest of the uk, abortion is illegal here in northern ireland in almost all circumstances. that meant that at 21 weeks pregnant, sarah had to travel to london to have her abortion. it's that experience that means she's involved in this court case. what was the experience like, making that journey, going all that way? awful. i should have been at home with my family around me, my friends supporting me. what do you want to see from this court case? well, politicians failed to help

10:25 am

us and women like me, so we're hoping that we'll get the help through the court. earlier i spoke to grainne teggart from amnesty northern ireland, who took case to court. we want the court today to find that our abortion laws in northern ireland breach women's rights. it's unfortunate and deeply regrettable, and also unacceptable that our politicians have failed to grapple with this issue and legislate for much and long overdue reform of our abortion laws. the court today, we're hoping, will agree that our laws breach women's rights, and then we will be calling on our government to urgently reform our laws and bring them in line with international human rights standards. but if the public

10:26 am

really want a change in but if the public really wanted change, northern ireland politicians would have delivered that change, wouldn't they? successive opinion polls have clearly demonstrated that overwhelmingly the northern ireland public is behind reform of our abortion laws. 0ur politicians now need to reflect their constituents' views on this matter and bring our abortion laws into the 21st—century. many people who believe what you are arguing in court today is wrong think that if the court agrees to abortion in the particular circumstances that you have outlined, then that will lead you to continue with your campaign to relax the abortion laws further in northern ireland. is that true? abortion is a health care and human rights issue. 0ur laws need to respect and promote women's rights and also ensure that they have timely, free, safe and legal access to abortions when that's needed. so that sounds like if you are successful today, then your campaign to get the law changed further continues. is that right? amnesty is campaigning for abortion to be decriminalised. obviously in northern ireland.

10:27 am

but right across the uk. abortion is a health care and human rights issue. it should not be dealt with through the criminaljustice system the way our laws currently are. what is the punishment in northern ireland for an illegal abortion? abortion in northern ireland is illegal in almost every circumstance, and also carries the harshest criminal penalties in europe. it means that for a woman seeking an abortion in circumstances outside of where her life or long—term physical and mental health are at risk, it carries a sentence of life imprisonment. amnesty is working on this case today, but we're also working with a mother who procured abortion pills for her daughter and has won the right to challenge the decision of the public prosecution service to challenge the decision to prosecute her. grainne teggart from amnesty

10:28 am

northern ireland. we will bring you the decision when it comes through. i want to bring some comments on the british transport police officer who confronted the terrorists at london bridge. david texted to say colon when you see this movie interview with pc wayne marques who put his life on the line to save members of the public, he not only deserves a pay rise but in my view should also be awarded the victoria cross. lynn says praise the public services to the hilt but don't give them a decent pay rise after seven years? it is beyond belief. sonia said: so proud of this british transport police officer. does he not deserve a pay rise? thank you for those, keep them coming in. still to come as the defence secretary says is could be facing the endgame in the battle for mosul, we will talk about what the result means for the future of what has been called the evil death cult. we will find out what the national crime agencies worried about the influence that island gangs from

10:29 am

albania have over the uk drugs trafficking market. it is nearly 10:30am. the latest news headlines. thank you, good morning. a retired court of appealjudge is today expected to be appointed to lead the public inquiry into the grenfell tower disaster. sir martin moore—bick spent more than 20 years as a judge of the commercial court and court of appeal until his retirement last year. at least 80 people are now believed to have died in the fire, but police say the final number of dead won't be known until the end of the year at the earliest. theresa may will face a major test of whether she has enough authority to stay in power as mps vote on the queen's speech later today. with the support of the democratic unionists the government is expected to pass its plans for the next parliament after narrowly surviving a vote last night on changes to public sector pgy- night on changes to public sector pay. jeremy corbyn is calling on mps to support his plans for the economy and on brexit. police in australia have charged one

10:30 am

of the most senior roman catholic cardinals george pell with sexually abusing children. cardinal pell is in charge of the vatican's finances and is considered to rank third in the hierarchy of the church. he is accused of multiple offences dating back to the 1970s. charges he strenuously denies. talks over resuming power—sharing at stormont remain stalled with only hours to go until the deadline. if no deal is reached to restore the devolved government by 4pm this afternoon northern ireland faces the prospect of direct rule from london. the national crime agency says it is increasingly concerned about the influence criminals from the balkans, particularly violent gangs from albania, have over the uk drug trafficking market. in its annual assessment on organised crime, the nca says corrupt workers at ports and airports make it easier for gangs to smuggle in drugs. it also warns about the threat of cyber—crime from russian—speaking nations.

10:31 am

that's a summary of the latest news. join me for bbc newsroom live at 11 o'clock. hugh is here with the sport. warren gatland has said he has had to make tough calls. they are looking for a lifeline against new zealand, trailing the series. 0wen farrell starts at inside centre, meaning he will team up withjohnny sexton, who has been named as fly half. michelle payne, the only female jockey to win the melbourne cup, has been banned after testing positive for a banned substance. jadejones reach the world tae kwon do semifinals in korea. that

10:32 am

guarantees her at least a bronze. dame katherine grainger, the incoming chairof uk dame katherine grainger, the incoming chair of uk sport says she has huge concerns about athlete welfare, given the number of sporting bodies under the cloud of bullying allegations. that is all the sport for this morning, victoria. more during newsroom live after 11am. violent albanian criminal gangs now have "considerable control" over uk drug trafficking, the national crime agency says. it's increasingly worried at the albanians' high—profile influence in organised crime here. it isa it is a group that is small in number but big an impact. we have seen number but big an impact. we have seen the emergence of violence, particularly around enforcing the drug trade in this group, and hence, we have a specific response with partners where we try the best we can to disrupt that. we have cases going through the courts, but it was the rise in violence that caused the most concern. our home affairs correspondent

10:33 am

danny shaw is here. substantial profits can still be made by the groups who are marketing, selling and producing drugs. what the national crime agency i think is concerned about is this rise of albanian gangsters into the scene, who are having a significant impact on the uk market. there are not great numbers of them, but they are having a disproportionate effect because of the propensity to use violence, guns and knives, to exert a grip on their pa rt and knives, to exert a grip on their part of the market. we have seen other groups as well, traditionally turkish and serbian groups controlling the heroin market, and also lithuanian gangsters in terms of organised crime as well, but i think it is the albanians that the nca think it is the albanians that the n ca wa nts think it is the albanians that the nca wants to focus on. are they warning us to watch out? who is the

10:34 am

warning us to watch out? who is the warning for? 0rjust let us know they have a really hard job?m warning for? 0rjust let us know they have a really hard job? it is pa rt they have a really hard job? it is part of the annual assessment of the picture of organised crime, and it is one of the things that they are flagging up. it is not for us to tackle albanian gangsters, but it is something that law enforcement should be aware of, and it tells us about the overall picture, the fact that you have disparate groups coming in wrestling for control of the drugs market is one of the parts of that picture, if you like. what else does the report talk about?m cove rs else does the report talk about?m covers everything from firearms to fraud, but one thing that stands out from me —— for me is the threat of corruption at the border by corrupt border staff, ferry workers, people working in courier companies. if you have people on the inside who are helping to facilitate the supply of drugs and also people smugglers, that creates huge problems for the

10:35 am

authorities because it makes it easy for the gangsters to get stuff in, and that has been flagged by the nca in this report. thank you very much, danny. a young man from britain who travelled to syria in 2014 says he is being held by syrian forces. jack letts, dubbed jihadis jack, has is being held by syrian forces. jack letts, dubbedjihadisjack, has now left that area, he says. his pa rents, left that area, he says. his parents, who had pleaded not guilty to charges of funding terrorism after trying to send cash to their son, have called on the british authorities to do what they can to help. we spoke to them recently, and they told us about the last time they told us about the last time they spoke to their son. they told us about the last time they spoke to their sonlj they told us about the last time they spoke to their son. i was screaming at him on the phone, how could he be so utterly stupid? the line went dead, and then he didn't contact us again for another three weeks. and in those three weeks, we

10:36 am

spent every single minute trying to contact whoever we could, trying to get help. so, everybody from journalists to charities, to prevent organisations, youth workers who work with prevent, and we did our own reading about who he could possibly be with. at some point, you sent him money. we tried to. but it was blocked by the police. you try to send £1700 or something? we tried to send £1700 or something? we tried to send £1700 or something? we tried to send money, edgar blocked, tried again and it got blocked, so the total sum we tried to sent was that. and then we were charged with the offence. —— it got blocked. and then we were charged with the offence. -- it got blocked. what happens to you both after being arrested? there was a period before

10:37 am

the cps decided whether wood with —— whether we would be charged or not. we were refused bail at the magistrates court and sent on remand for five days, but that got overturned on appeal. since the arrest, what has been the impact on your lives? clearly, five days in jail is not what you would have wanted, necessarily. what was that like? after we were arrested, we had to sign in at a police station every day, then we had a curfew from midnight till 6am. every time the doorbell rings, it is the police, a journalist or somebody. that has been really difficult, very stressful. and how has your son reacted too, because of his actions, what has happened to you in the meantime? we haven't been able to talk to him too much about that. we would need to see him face—to—face. i think he doesn't like the idea.

10:38 am

the idea of what? when he was inside he could not speak openly. but he has been out for a while. he could not speak openly. but he has been out for a whilelj he could not speak openly. but he has been out for a while. i think he thinks that horrible in the system shouldn't be doing that to us. the system ? shouldn't be doing that to us. the system? what shouldn't be doing that to us. the system ? what about shouldn't be doing that to us. the system? what about what he has done and its impact on both of you?m has been horrible. is he sad about that? has he shown remorse?” that? has he shown remorse? i think i would like him to sit here and you can ask in himself, but i'm sure he does, to a degree. i don't know how to answer because i haven't had that extended discussion. i think he is upset by that, but he is motivated by his own internal things. he's a 21—year—old, you know, quite confident, aggregate, pig—headed lad, of which there are many. and on a phone call on a crackly line, it is difficult to have an in—depth conversation about how upset his parents are. —— arrogant. conversation about how upset his

10:39 am

parents are. -- arrogant. how did you feel when he said he hated you, his parents, for the sake of allah, because you were non—believers, and called on you to convert to islam? yes, i thought about that. i haven't tackled him directly about it. a lot of the strange thing is that jack has said in interviews or sometimes on facebook, sometimes we have wondered, is he being forced to say these things? is he in a situation where people are overhearing what he's saying and he has to, in order to kind of save his life, he has to sort of say certain things? and you could... sometimes he would write m essa g es could... sometimes he would write messages that he wouldn't say out loud. he would say certain things out loud that sounded strange. he is an internet cafe, being of a head, and he has to say these things. and what he really thought he would send ina what he really thought he would send in a text message during the same conversation. a lot of the religious things he said would be said out

10:40 am

loud. he narrowly survived an air strike, with just a scratch. ez, loud. he narrowly survived an air strike, withjust a scratch. ez, i am not scared or worried. everyone will die on their day. a muslim understands that his life is between the hands of allah, so if they want to bomb me, they will bomb me. christians have said this a message. what you think about the fact he was nearly killed? it is terrifying. you're waiting for a phone call every day to say that your son has been killed. our home affairs correspondent has been in touch with your son and reports that it appears jack has little desire to come back to the uk. yes. and he has said all along that he wants to get out of where he is, we want to get into a safe place. we would like him to come back to the uk, but i don't think he would be happy here. i

10:41 am

think he would be happy here. i think he would be happy here. i think he wants to live in an islamic country. he has been told where he is being held at the moment that he would be released to the british, so i think he has resigned himself to the fact that he will come back here for questioning. and i think ideally that would happen, he would be able to tell his side of the story. he wouldn't be on the run for the rest of his life. and then, once he has cleared his name, then he can live his life as he chooses, probably in his life as he chooses, probably in his mind in an islamic country. sally and john letts. the foreign office says the uk advises against all travel to syria and parts of iraq. so—called islamic state, also known as daesh, once controlled an area of territory as big as the united kingdom across iraq and syria. since their emergence in 2014, islamic state's brutality has outraged the world, and concerted attempts have been made by the us, british, russian and iraqi militaries amongst others to defeat them. as a result, their territory has

10:42 am

shrunk dramatically. now, three years to the day since the ‘caliphate' was first declared, one of the largest cities held by is — mosul in iraq — might be about to finally fall to the iraqi security forces. although i do feel like we have been saying that for a few weeks now. what could this mean for the future of the so called islamic state? karen von hippel is the head of the think tank the royal united services institute. patrick has written extensively on the caliphate. and in baghdad, we have bruno, the unhcr representative in iraq. welcome to all of you. why have islamic state been so successful, patrick, in holding territory in recent years?

10:43 am

well, they are monsters of cruelty. they are extremely fanatical, but they are also, unfortunately, militarily pretty expert and experienced. so, they fight very hard. and they have fought very hard for mosul. this siege has gone on for mosul. this siege has gone on for 254 days. and they are still fighting there. but they will ultimately lose it. it will be a very serious defeat for them, but it won't entirely put them out of business. that is my next question, to you, karen, strategically, if/ when they lose mosul, what does that mean for them across the region? they would be fully defeated in iraq for some time. they have pocket in iraq. once they are squeezed out, they will go wander down —— babel go underground. they will disperse to different parts of the welcome and thatis different parts of the welcome and that is the concern — what does the

10:44 am

next version of isis looked like and how do we disrupt that? what do we think it looks like? yellow may —— terrorism has been more of an integral part of how isis fight a war than almost any other organisation in history. so what is likely to happen, and may already have happened in manchester and london, is that they try to counterbalance defeat on the battlefield in iraq and syria by carrying out very high—profile atrocities in western europe, somewhere where they know it will attract a lot of attention. that has been their track record in the past and his record to be —— is likely to be their record in the future. is there at direct parallel with their territory shrinking and attacks around the world growing and becoming more horrific? it was predicted that as they were militarily squeeze, they would lash out at the periphery to demonstrate

10:45 am

they are still a force to be reckoned with, to continue to attract new recruits. they have the full might of the west pounding them and they can still cause damage elsewhere. i will come back to the question of how the west and others will combat that. let me bring in bruno in baghdad. tell us about the humanitarian situation, bruno. there are thousands of civilians still in the old city being used as human shields. they know that if they try to flee they will be targeted by snipers. if they stay they may starve to death. the people we receive in our camps these days are ina we receive in our camps these days are in a state of shock, the deepest trauma, showing the signs. the longer the city remains in the state of battle the more dramatic could be the condition of the city and those

10:46 am

people able to flee. there are still tens of thousands of people being held as human shields there. how are you able to help those people? as soon as you able to help those people? as soon as they reach us they are transported to our camps, receive food, water and shelter. we have a policy of whatever the number arriving in a day which may vary from 5000-18,000 arriving in a day which may vary from 5000—18,000 per day, within 24 hours they must have their own tent and receive a hot meal as soon as they arrive. the biggest problem of course is the trauma. we provide psychological first aid after we have identified their immediate needs. we have a referral system to have a deeper kind of psychosocial counselling. patrick cockburn and karin von hippel, how do governments

10:47 am

combat the terror and ideology of is? it is quite a step forward having eliminated the caliphate. that has been one of the most important things and perhaps underestimated that makes is terrorism different from others, but it has a centre. i know people say the so—called islamic state, but it was until recently with dummigan reel seat with a powerful army, administration, administration and taxation. it could organise and inspire attacks in britain or in france or in belgium. that is an improvement since it has been destroyed. these attacks that require no expertise directed at civilians, not everyone can be protected. the basic thing is to try to restore peace to the area. is is really the child of war, and al-qaeda as well, they come of war and chaos. if we have continuing war

10:48 am

and chaos. if we have continuing war and chaos. if we have continuing war and chaos we will have the same sort of thing is continuing. maybe it would be is, it will be some clone of is, just like is was a clone of al-qaeda and it will go on and on as long as the war goes on. unfortunately i think the genie is out of the bottle. even if you bring peace to iraq and syria overnight this will not be the end of isil. they will be a more distributed threat, find pockets in weak states in many parts of the world and continue their activities online, they are very successful online as well. thank you very much. patrick cockburn from the independent foreign correspondent for the independent and karin von hippel from the defence think tank royal united this is institute and bruno geddo in baghdad, the unhcr's representative in iraq. thank you. a mother has revealed her horror at

10:49 am

finding her child had been circumcised without her consent. she opened his nappy to find it covered in blood. she has been urging the authorities to take action from four yea rs. three people have been arrested after a baby boy was circumcised without his mother's consent. a 61—year—old man, thought to be a doctor, is suspected of causing grievous bodily harm with intent. the boy was circumcised when he was three years old while staying with his parental grandparents who are muslim. well we can't talk about the details of this story because it's going through the courts. butjoining me now is richard duncker from the campaign group, men do complain. hello. what is your own personal experience, if that's ok to ask.|j ama experience, if that's ok to ask.|j am a victim turned activist, in that i was circumcised as a child. i've had psychological problems throughout my life. as a result of the circumcision? i believe so. of

10:50 am

course, iam the circumcision? i believe so. of course, i am just an anecdote and there isn't a richard out there who has not been circumcised so we have no possible control. but that's my story. i have sought psychological help along the way. until i met the charity 15 square i thought i was probably mad and alone, had fallen off the therapy treadmill in that i had done ijust didn't believe what i was hearing, that this can't possibly a problem from inside my own head, i knew it was a problem. cani own head, i knew it was a problem. can i ask how old you were when you we re can i ask how old you were when you were circumcised ? can i ask how old you were when you were circumcised? i believe i was a week old. i started the group men do complain because it's a very difficult thing for a man to complain about, in that you have to first admit there is something wrong with your genitals. you then have to challenge your parents and their decisions. and if you come from one

10:51 am

of the cutting cultures you have to go immediately against the dogma of that culture and question those in authority in your community. so that's three very high bars that a man has to get over to complain about this. but i think we need to turn around and look at this from the child's perspective. in society we set a very low bar for child protection. you only have to take a look at the tattooing of minors act where we don't tolerate a mark on a child made by ink and a pen. the irony is if you were to tattoo a child's venus you would be in court but if you cut a bit off, have a cup of tea, well done, go home. it is actually a nonsense. bahamas not a lwa ys actually a nonsense. bahamas not always obvious when the child is young. the problems that can develop

10:52 am

—— the harm is not always obvious. they can have distorted he needs —— genitalia. male circumcision is legal in this country if both pa rents legal in this country if both parents consent, is that right?|j don't think it is. i would dispute that. if it is a healthy child that is cut, any cut through the full thickness of the skin is a wounding under the offences against the person act. if there is no disease and we're all agreed that these are healthy children there is no medical defence, it is completely inappropriate treatment. sorry to interrupt. should be viewed then, in the same way as we view female genital mutilation? i think that is a very valid point of view in that the french have had a successful prosecutions for fgm, quite a few of them, they have used their civil

10:53 am

code, they're perfectly ordinary law, they have not felt the need to resort to constructing a new law for it. in the uk it was a matter of strategy, that if they could separate fgm they might make further progress, but to bundle the whole thing together would be too complicated to make any progress. thank you for talking to us. richard duncker from thank you for talking to us. richard dunckerfrom men thank you for talking to us. richard duncker from men do thank you for talking to us. richard dunckerfrom men do complain. thank you for your time. we were talking earlier about the appointment of retired high courtjudge sir martin moore—bike sir martin moore—bick to lead the public inquiry into the grenfell disaster. he has promised vigorous inquiry becketts to the truth and that he understands the desire of local people for justice. we understands the desire of local people forjustice. we can get reaction now from somebody who lived on the 14th floor of the tower. thank you for talking to us. finally a judge has been appointed, what do

10:54 am

you think about this? this is another way of the government is trying to cover up everything that is wrong. getting somebody who is retired, been retired forfive yea rs, retired, been retired forfive years, why would you get somebody like that to come back? we're not happy with this, we need a criminal judge, he is not a criminaljudge. this is the same person that sent the woman, from westminster council all the way to milton keynes. that's not right. this is not right. winnie justice and this man will not give us justice and this man will not give us anyjustice. we should have an influence over whoever conducts this process. this is not right. even though he promises a vigorous inquiry by guest of the truth? we don't believe him, this is not my opinion, iam don't believe him, this is not my opinion, i am speaking to the people

10:55 am

of g re nfell tower. opinion, i am speaking to the people of grenfell tower. we're not happy about this and we need influence over who will be the judge of this case. this is not right. so you and others, other survivors from g re nfell tower wa nt others, other survivors from grenfell tower want to be consulted on who should be leading this public inquiry? yes, exactly. exactly. this is not just my inquiry? yes, exactly. exactly. this is notjust my opinion, everyone from grenfell tower, we all feel the same. the government has appointed this man. are you saying to them now, stand him down? why do you have to to bring somebody who was retired five years ago? there are lots of judges who could pick up this case, why does it have to be somebody who retired five years ago? they know that this means the case will go in there favour. you see this man as a member of the establishment? yes, why do they have to bring him? there

10:56 am

are many otherjudges who could do this? why do they need a judge who retired five years ago? we need a criminal judge. retired five years ago? we need a criminaljudge. they can make their promises. this is not fair. we're not going to getjustice, we are not going to get true justice. he has said he understands... he doesn't understand anything, sorry to keep cutting you off, victoria. this man does not understand nothing. this is the same man who sent a woman and her kid all the way to milton keynes and the supreme court had to turn his decision over. this man doesn't ca re his decision over. this man doesn't care about us. he said he understands the desire of local people for justice. understands the desire of local people forjustice. he doesn't know nothing. he doesn't understand how we feel. know he doesn't. sorry to interrupt. out of his background is that he is, i am told, reported over complex shipping cases, why a ship

10:57 am

has sunk. this is a criminal case. he is not a criminaljudge. we need a criminaljudge. this is murder. 0k. all right, so you want your say, you want to influence...” 0k. all right, so you want your say, you want to influence... i don't wa nt you want to influence... i don't want my say, we want our say. we wa nt want my say, we want our say. we want our say, we are grenfell tower and we want our say, the families wa nt and we want our say, the families want their say. this is not me speaking, i'm speaking for grenfell tower now. we want our say. thank you very much. that is 0luwaseun talabi. a couple of things to mention before the end of things to mention before the end of the programme. neil findlay, member of the scottish parliament, labour member, tabled a motion at the scottish parliament praising our programme for coverage of the surgical mesh issue. and thisjust in as well. the speaker has selected

10:58 am

three amendments to the big debate in the commons this evening to be voted on tonight. they are quite long so i don't think i have time to read them to now but i'm sure you will get the information in bbc newsroom live coming up next. thank you for your company, have a good day. back tomorrow at 9am. it has been another damp and drizzly day. this is the recent radar picture, heavy rain from eastern scotland, north—west england, for the rest of the day the rain will spread through the north—west of scotla nd spread through the north—west of scotland into the north of ireland as well. strong wind making it feel pretty chilly. for northern england, wales and sat donegal south—west,

10:59 am

cloudy skies and rain during the afternoon but a bit drier in the south—east and a bit of brightness. overnight the rain will continue in the north and west, lots of cloud and pretty dank conditions. towards the south—east of england, pretty dry, the strong wind continuing around the irish sea. the temperatures overnight 13 or 14 celsius. that takes us into friday. this area of register with us, gradually breaking up in the afternoon, a few showers sinking south and east was, 15 or 16 degrees in the north—west but feeling warm in the north—west but feeling warm in the south—east, highs of 19—23. this is bbc news, and these are the top stories developing at 11. the prime minister appoints retired appeal courtjudge —

11:00 am

sir martin moore—bick — to lead the public inquiry into the grenfell tower fire, saying no stone will be left unturned. sir martin promises a vigorous inquiry that gets to the truth as quickly as possible one of the most senior figures in the catholic church is accused of multiple counts of sexual offences. australian cardinal george pell, says he'll take leave from the vatican to fight the charges. i'm looking forward finally to having my day in court. i'm innocent of these charges. they are false.