Below is a complete transcript of my interviews with Dr. Calvin Greene, administrative director of Calgary’s Regional Fertility Program. It has been lightly edited for clarity only.

I had contacted the clinic several weeks ago after interviewing a former patient, who had informed me her doctor — not Greene — told her of the clinic’s policy in March 2013 to refuse treatment to singles or couples who chose to use sperm donors of a different ethnicity.

Following tremendous international interest in the story, the clinic released a statement Monday claiming the policy had been cancelled over a year ago and that the website had not been updated due to an “oversight.” It went on to say Dr. Greene’s comments did not reflect the policy of the clinic and that he was speaking as an individual on the topic of ethics in fertility treatment. A statement on the clinic’s website stating: “It is the practice of the Regional Fertility Program not to permit the use of a sperm donor that would result in a future child appearing racially different than the recipient or the recipient’s partner,” had been removed as of Monday afternoon.

I did not specifically ask to speak to Greene when I initially approached the clinic for comment on the policy. I called the clinic’s general line and left a message on a general voicemail inbox serving all the doctors at the Regional Fertility Clinic. I left a brief message outlining that I was interested in learning more about the policy at the clinic and asked to speak with someone who could give me more information. Greene returned my call.

We had an initial interview on July 23 and a follow-up interview on July 25 for clarification, both by phone. At no point did he indicate he was not speaking on behalf of the clinic.

Communications specialist Paula Arab is now spokeswoman for the Regional Fertility Program. In an interview Tuesday she said she did not know why Greene, the clinic’s administrative director, would be unaware of the change in policy or why he would be made available to speak to a reporter if he did not represent the clinic.

She said Greene is currently in Mexico. She said she did not know the exact date or month that the policy was changed and that the clinic could not provide contact information or statements from patients who have used donors of a different racial background in the year since the policy has been revoked due to privacy concerns.

Wednesday, July 23

The Herald: I was contacted by a former patient at your clinic who is receiving fertility treatment and she told me that she was told that she was only allowed to select from donors that match her ethnic profile, so in other words, were white, and that was a policy of the clinic.

Greene: What are you talking about, are you talking about egg donation or embryo donation?

The Herald: Sperm donation.

Greene: So yeah, if you read our website it’s right on there and unless people have a cultural connection to another ethnic group it’s encouraged – I mean that’s not just for sperm donation, it’s the same for adoption or egg donation or embryo donation or anything else.

The Herald: And why is that?

Greene: Well I would ask you, why would you not choose somebody of your own cultural background?

The Herald: This woman said that the pool of sperm donors is already very small to begin with and —

Greene: That’s not correct, there’s lots of sperm donors. And if you’re talking about ethnic donors, there’s even fewer ethnic donors than there are Caucasian people.

The Herald: OK, this woman – and I can only speak in the point of view that she gave me – so she felt that her pool of eligible donors were quite small and by limiting them to only white donors she was limited even further in who she could choose and the qualities she was looking for.

Greene: What do you mean quality?

The Herald: I’m not sure, I mean characteristics.

Greene: What do you mean when you’re talking about quality?

The Herald: I’m not sure, those were her words.

Greene: Well, I mean they’re sperm donors, they have a good sample or they wouldn’t be sperm donors. They have three generations of family history that says they don’t have any genetic diseases that run in the family. They’re all decent people, they’ve all had screening for some genetic disorders, they’ve all had psychological screening. They’re all good quality donors or they wouldn’t be donors.

The Herald: Right. So if they’re all good quality donors, why limit people to donors that match their ethnic background?

Greene: Well because unless you have a cultural connection with somebody of another ethnic background, I would put it to you, why would you want to?

The Herald: Perhaps there are some donors that – I admit I don’t know a lot about how selecting sperm donors goes – but you might find a candidate that you feel is the best match for you and the race of your child is not an issue for you.

Greene: Well there’s something else that’s unusual. They want to have a child that looks ethnically different than them or – it’s not a matter of quality or selection because there are lots of high-quality sperm donors in the three sperm banks that are in Canada. This woman wants to have a baby, I suspect, that looks different than her.

The Herald: And what’s the problem with that?

Greene: When we talk about donation, we normally stay – at least within this clinic – we normally stay within the same lines that you come from. If you were to have a child from a donor of a different race, how does that child identify with that other race? So if you have a native child they like to place them within a native family, because there’s a cultural connection. Now in adoption they don’t always have that choice and as a second choice they’ll put a native child into a Caucasian home. But for the most part, adoption occurs along the lines of the cultural group so that the child that is born, or already born, can identify with the cultural group from which their genetics arise.

The Herald: OK, I take your point. But there are also plenty of examples where couples and singles have adopted children of a different ethnic background and the trump card seems to be the ability to place them in a home that is stable and loving.

Greene: That’s quite right, when they can’t be placed within their own ethnic group. So that’s considered more of an advantage, considered more desirable than not having a home at all.

The Herald: How long has this policy been in place at the clinic?

Greene: Forever.

The Herald: And who made that decision, ultimately?

Greene: We make it as a group, as doctors. It’s on our website, we inform people of it. And if they feel strongly they want to do something different than what we offer, then we refer them to a clinic that will allow them to do that.

The Herald: But you’re the only fertility clinic in Calgary, is that correct?

Greene: Yep.

The Herald: So when you’re undergoing fertility treatment, my understanding is that you need to be fairly geographically close to the clinic because you need to make frequent trips.

Greene: No, that’s not true. We get patients from Newfoundland for treatment, so don’t tell me you have to be close to the clinic. There’s another clinic in Edmonton, there’s one in Saskatoon, there’s one in Winnipeg, there’s one in Kelowna, there’s about five of them in Vancouver. So if people want to have treatments that are not available at our clinic, then we simply refer them to a clinic where they do those sorts of things.

The Herald: Right. And the primary motivation for the decision, explain to me again, is it the welfare of the child? The cultural welfare?

Greene: Of course. Everything is always for the welfare of the child, that’s how we make decisions. Our decision is that a child of an ethnic background should have the ability to be able to identify with their ethnic roots.

The Herald: Is it not possible that parents with a different ethnic background could make sure that child has access to its cultural group?

Greene: I suppose it could. But I still go back to my original decision. Why do you think you need to have a child from another ethnic background? Now if you came in and you were with a man that was black, then there is a connection. If he didn’t have sperm then they can choose a black donor, because there’s a connection. But to bring a black child into a totally white family — it’s different when you’re adopting, because the child is there and it’s better to have a loving home, as you pointed out, than no home at all. But if you’re creating a life, it’s different. In Canadian law there’s lots of things you can’t do and one of them is designer children. And in a way, she’s expressing her wish to have a designer child, is how we would interpret it, because she doesn’t want to have a Caucasian child. She’s Caucasian, but she wants to have a child of a different race or different ethnic background and the question has to be well why?

The Herald: I didn’t understand from her that that was the primary motivating factor, the primary motivating factor was that she found the donors most suitable to be non-Caucasian.

Greene: Well then she needs to look harder, because I can tell you reasonable people can easily find a suitable donor. I don’t have people coming in here – you know the people that do have trouble are ethnic people because there’s limited numbers of those donors available. So those are the people that come in and say ‘gee, we’re having a lot of trouble finding a suitable donor.’

The Herald: Right. One might wonder however if it is the prerogative of the clinic to decide who’s the most suitable donor for a –

Greene: Well of course it is. I don’t have to treat you for anything. All I have to do is say to you ‘I don’t agree with that’ and the only obligation I have is to refer you to another clinic that would do it. It’s the same thing about abortions, or you heard about on the radio not long ago the doctor that didn’t like giving the birth control pill. Well, you don’t have to do anything that you don’t want to as a physician, except in the case of an emergency, that is against what you think are the best interests of the child is what we do in our clinic. And you know it’s stood the test of time. Usually when you explain this to patients they understand and choose a donor or go somewhere else, I guess.

The Herald: Does your clinic receive public funding?

Greene: Not a dime. It doesn’t matter though, this is a physician decision. If a physician doesn’t want to be involved in treatment because he or she feels that it’s not in the best interest of the child, they don’t have to. They can refer to another clinic that does those kinds of things.

The Herald: I also understood that your clinic may have been sued before over this policy?

Greene: Cal. If you print anything bad, you’ll never talk to me again. You can frame it like I’ve given it to you, acting in the best interest of the child, you can refer to what happens in adoption, but if you paint me as this bigoted person that won’t allow people to pursue their dreams of having a child of mixed race, you’ll never talk to me again.

The Herald: OK. I can promise you I will do my very utmost to present a most fair and balanced account.

Greene: And this policy has been cleared by the human rights in Alberta. And there is a statement on our website so people know before they come. We’re not doing anything wrong, we’ve never been sued, that’s baloney. If people feel strongly about it we just refer them to another centre.

The Herald: And what is the response to people who – and some of them will – think this is a racially motivated, and some might use the term bigoted, policy?

Greene: Oh that’s baloney. Maybe it’s them that’s got the problem because they’re the ones wanting to create a child that’s mixed race. Maybe in our society that’s not necessarily the best thing for that child. I think it’s a lot better than it used to be. But that’s the feeling of the six doctors that work here at the moment. And that’s what the requirement says according to the Human Assisted Reproduction Act of Canada, you always have to act in the best interests of the child. That’s one of the guiding principles of the act. We feel like the best interest of the child is to have a cultural and genetic connection with the person that it’s being raised by. With adoption it’s different, it’s better to have a loving home even if you don’t have that connection than having no home at all.

The Herald: You don’t believe that in Canada’s multicultural, interracial society things might have progressed somewhat?

Greene: I think they have. I can remember growing up in a neighbourhood where children who were of mixed race or black children were discriminated against. But I think we have come a long ways but I’m not sure that we should be creating rainbow families just because some single woman decides that that’s what she wants. That’s her prerogative, but that’s not her prerogative in our clinic. When we get special requests like this we do have them seen by the psychologists if they want to explore their motivation behind doing it and so on. But I don’t think. That’s just our policy at the moment.

The Herald: And how often does this policy come up?

Greene: Oh, Seldom. And usually once you have a very preliminary discussion with them and explain to them the rationale behind it, then they don’t pursue it.

The Herald: Just out of curiosity, you treat interracial couples, do you treat same-sex couples as well?

Greene: Of course.

The Herald: And are there any visible minorities on the board of the clinic or who work there?

Greene: Are you kidding? Most of our patients are visible minorities.

The Herald: I’m saying of the staff though that are making the decisions.

Greene: Oh of course, we’ve got a Chinese, a Malay, a Korean, an Irishman and two Canadians, or two people that grew up in Canada. So we’re a very multicultural clinic.

The Herald: Well thank you Dr. Greene, I really appreciate you taking the time to chat.

Greene: Thank you, bye-bye.

Friday, July 25 Our conversation began with Dr. Greene asking why this policy would be newsworthy:

The Herald: To be honest with you a lot of people find the policy rather shocking.

Greene: Yeah but a lot of what we do in our clinic people don’t agree with, whether it be treating same-sex couples, we treat gay couples, we treat lesbian couples, we do all kinds of things. But I’m not understanding, what’s so interesting or newsworthy about something that’s explained on our website, and that has been a policy and any doctor can decide what they do about any treatment any time as long as they refer appropriately.

The Herald: Yeah, and you are absolutely correct in all of that, I just –

Greene: This is a private clinic and quite frankly we’re actually very liberal in the things that we do, but we always act in the best interest of the child.

The Herald: Yep and all of those things will come through in the article and you’re absolutely correct in all of that, but it does present an interesting social issue.

Greene: Yeah but you’re trying to make us look like we’re bigoted or –

The Herald: I’m not trying to make you look like anything.

Greene: Then explain to me why this is so newsworthy.

The Herald: Because a lot of people feel that in 2014 in a multicultural society, it shouldn’t matter.

Greene: Why does it matter to adoption then, why does it matter to egg donation or embryo donation, because it does for all those things.

The Herald: That’s your opinion, other people have different opinions.

Greene: Well no, adoption, that’s just the way it is.

The Herald: Well adoption may be a special case, particularly if you’re referring to First Nations because they do have a very unique culture within Canada.

Greene: Well how is that different from an African-American, or somebody from China or from Thailand.

The Herald: But there are also many, many examples in our culture of white parents who adopt children from China or Thailand or any number of places.

Greene: But that’s different, those children are already here.

The Herald: I respect your argument.

Greene: As I told you, this was reviewed by (the Alberta Human Rights Commission) and they saw no problem with it.

The Herald: Right. So these are some of the things I wanted to touch base with you about. When was this reviewed by Human Rights?

Greene: Oh, I don’t know, maybe five years ago. Something like that.

The Herald: And why did it end up going to Human Rights?

Greene: Because there was a complaint. So it was a couple that did not have infertility and they wanted to have a rainbow child, a rainbow family. So one month they wanted to use a Chinese donor, one month they wanted to use a black donor, that sort of thing. So they were thinking they were going to have a rainbow family. So we evaluated them, the psychologist evaluated them and really didn’t see why this, in a couple that is not infertile, should be choosing sperm donors they have no cultural relationship with. And, you know, raising a Chinese child in a white home that has no Chinese connection, or an African-American. So you know, our question is, well why do they want to do that? At the end of the day they said ‘well it’s because we want to show everybody that you shouldn’t be bigoted.’ Yeah, but that’s not – we didn’t agree with that. And so they made a complaint to the Human Rights Commission and so it was a meeting and the outcome was that there was no fault found. That is the time, at that time we put the statement up on our website, because one of their complaints was, well if we’d known that then we wouldn’t have bothered coming to your clinic.

The Herald: Now I was looking at your website and I actually couldn’t find the statement, where is it?

Greene: Look under Therapeutic Donor Insemination, choosing a donor or something like that.

The Herald: Do you have records from the Human Rights complaint?

Greene: No. And I wouldn’t share them with you if I did.

The Herald: OK. The other thing I wanted to offer you was – I know you’re really concerned about how you’re represented in the story –

Greene: Well, think of all the good work we do.

The Herald: No one is refuting that or denying that.

Greene: We’re up to 13,000 IVF babies, we treat everybody that comes through the door, we have a charity that I created in 2005 that even helps people that can’t pay for it. This is a clinic that has been friendly to, and has served this community very well, and I just hate to see focus on something that is just – I don’t deny that it’s important to some people. But they have alternatives, they have options. It’s not that we’re saying they can’t do it, they just can’t do it in our clinic.

The Herald: In the interest of making sure that you feel that you’re fairly represented, I wanted to offer you the option of having a photographer come over and you recording a little bit of video for us.

Greene: No, I don’t think so. That’s just bringing more focus to a situation that I don’t really want to focus on. Because now what you’re doing is focusing on one-tenth of one percent of what we deal with in this clinic. And what about all the rest of the good work that we do and that’s not fair to us. Just because there are some people that feel strongly that they would like to have a rainbow family for whatever their justification – and I’m not saying whether that’s right or wrong. I’m just saying that the doctors at this clinic, unless there’s a compelling reason, and they have the opportunity to give their reasons, that isn’t something we do.

The Herald: I understand that 100 per cent. Thank you so much, I just had those clarifications I wanted to run past you and I did want to offer you the option of speaking on video.

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