Richar has to be lights out for the rest of spring training to even have a chance to make the team and will likely start at AAA Charlotte. Guillen wants to give Ramirez and Uribe their fair share of playing time through the rest of ST, which would be at Richar's expense, so what little AB's Richar gets, he has to be unstoppable. Unlikely.

I think this makes the most sense. Gives the Sox a great deal of insurance in case Cabrera leaves after this season because Ramirez slides in as the new starting SS. Uribe is probably going to be gone also (by the deadline if not before, but it's a given he will not be wearing sliver and black in 2009). Whenever Uribe gets traded, Richar comes up. In '09, Richar and Ramirez are the starting middle infield, or the player with the worse 2008 out of Richar and Ramirez gets traded in case Cabrera signs a new contract with the Sox.

Mod edit: Since I had to delete your double-posted thread, I took the liberty of also deleting your "first initial, first syllable" nicknames.

thomas35forever

03-18-2008, 02:12 AM

If this is true, Uribe better have a helluva season or else he might just be run out of town.

guillen4life13

03-18-2008, 02:46 AM

Goes to show how exciting this spring training has been, with many unexpected good performances by most of us. Anderson and Ramirez were expected to be in Charlotte and have played their ways onto the teams. Ramirez is the best defensive shortstop on the team besides Cabrera and if he can play 2B decently, he could be a sub in the IF along with Ozuna. Fields is looking like he will start the year in Charlotte since Crede hasn't been traded for Tim Lincecum yet. Uribe was expected to ride the bench or get traded, and now he very well could be the starting 2B. But the best thing is that the people who haven't won out all had to deal with issues (Richar had the visa and back, Fields has Crede in the way and Quentin isn't fully back from his injury yet. It's good to know there's such decent insurance waiting to play in case someone gets injured or traded. Wish I could be so confident about the pitching staff.

gogosox16

03-18-2008, 03:34 AM

I am having the feeling that Richar, Fields, and Quentin will all start in AAA for more seasoning. The only reason I believe Quentin will not start with the team is because he needs consistent playing time and needs to get a lot of work back and playing time from missing out, I expect him to possibly stay in AAA all year barring any injury and in 2009 him to be the starting RF replacing Dye/Thome(If we let Thome go and possibly move Dye to DH)

soxfanatlanta

03-18-2008, 08:57 AM

I am having the feeling that Richar, Fields, and Quentin will all start in AAA for more seasoning. The only reason I believe Quentin will not start with the team is because he needs consistent playing time and needs to get a lot of work back and playing time from missing out, I expect him to possibly stay in AAA all year barring any injury and in 2009 him to be the starting RF replacing Dye/Thome(If we let Thome go and possibly move Dye to DH)

If that is so then I have three good reasons to head up 85 and check out the Knights.

kittle42

03-18-2008, 11:34 AM

Mod edit: Since I had to delete your double-posted thread, I took the liberty of also deleting your "first initial, first syllable" nicknames.

But I love D Rich, A Ram, and especially J Ur!

Tragg

03-18-2008, 12:50 PM

Did Uribe suddenly turn into a good hitter? Is he now taking pitches and getting on base? Or does the clear disconnect between Williams' talk about OBP and the field staff's preference for hackers and the philosophy of swinging at everything still exist?

A mediocre hitter for a SS now manning 2B....terrific.

If wheeling the horrific Erstad out there day after day didn't definitely describe this staff's position on young players, putting Uribe at 2b certainly does.

RowanDye

03-18-2008, 01:08 PM

Did Uribe suddenly turn into a good hitter? Is he now taking pitches and getting on base? Or does the clear disconnect between Williams' talk about OBP and the field staff's preference for hackers and the philosophy of swinging at everything still exist?

A mediocre hitter for a SS now manning 2B....terrific.

If wheeling the horrific Erstad out there day after day didn't definitely describe this staff's position on young players, putting Uribe at 2b certainly does.

I'm just as frustrated by the Uribe situation as you are, but we need to let this thing play before jumping to conlcusions.

The Sox were counting on Richar this year to step up, and so far he's only played 4 games! Meanwhile Uribe is quietly tied for the team lead in doubles, and yes, actually getting on base.

Hopefully the Sox are just posturing to trade Uribe, because I don't think anyone believes Juan will keep this up throughout the year.

Maybe this attitude from Ozzie is meant as a challenge to Richar, but it seems silly to me to call out a player who just needs more playing time.

FedEx227

03-18-2008, 01:25 PM

Did Uribe suddenly turn into a good hitter? Is he now taking pitches and getting on base? Or does the clear disconnect between Williams' talk about OBP and the field staff's preference for hackers and the philosophy of swinging at everything still exist?

A mediocre hitter for a SS now manning 2B....terrific.

If wheeling the horrific Erstad out there day after day didn't definitely describe this staff's position on young players, putting Uribe at 2b certainly does.

Second every statement here. Great post!

The Sox were counting on Richar this year to step up, and so far he's only played 4 games! Meanwhile Uribe is quietly tied for the team lead in doubles, and yes, actually getting on base. Which is clearly Richar's choice. "Hey Ozzie, I want to play today... oh and bat me 7th....please!" I'm not using it as a personal attack against you but Ozzie plays that game all the time. This guy only played this amount of games... well Ozzie hate to break it to you but that's your choice. I went to a week of Spring Training games last week and didn't even see Richar. He did a pretty decent job last year at the 2B helm and it would be a disgrace to see the Sox **** up yet another prospect.

KenBerryGrab

03-18-2008, 01:46 PM

Richar wasn't in the lineup because he was hurt. I don't know how you put that on Ozzie.

Lip Man 1

03-18-2008, 01:51 PM

Between being late and getting hurt it's really hard to make an impression when you only have a limited amount of spring training time remaining.

It's not Ozzie's fault Richar couldn't get here in time or hurt his back is it?

Lip

FedEx227

03-18-2008, 02:00 PM

Richar wasn't in the lineup because he was hurt. I don't know how you put that on Ozzie.

Where's Richar been the last week and a half?

ChiTownTrojan

03-18-2008, 02:35 PM

This isn't really a surprise to me. Richar's roster spot was far from guaranteed, and with the little amount he's played so far, how can you say that he's "won" it? It's certainly not Ozzie's fault that Richar showed up late and hurt. If it's anyone's fault, it's his own. Maybe this will serve as a learning experience for Richar on how to prepare for the season.

Best case scenario, Uribe starts (yeah, I said it) and goes on one of his patented hot streaks to start the season. Then we trade him away when his value peaks, and Richar is called up to fill the spot. Ramirez can help this team the most in a utility role due to his versatility.

Jjav829

03-18-2008, 02:39 PM

Wooo. So we traded a reliable middle-of-the-order pitcher to acquire a new shortstop because our old shortstop was bad (offensively, his defense at short was fine). So what are we going to do with said old shortstop? Start him at second base. :?:

Here's to hoping Ozzie comes to his senses soon, or that KW forces him to with a Uribe trade.

Jaffar

03-18-2008, 02:52 PM

Why hasn't Jason Bourgeois been given a chance to win the 2B starting job? The guy is having a solid spring in an outfield with lots of options ahead of him. He played 2B for Birmingham & Charlotte (and hit well) the last 2 years, yet he's not even considered?

fquaye149

03-18-2008, 02:56 PM

Wooo. So we traded a reliable middle-of-the-order pitcher to acquire a new shortstop because our old shortstop was bad (offensively, his defense at short was fine). So what are we going to do with said old shortstop? Start him at second base. :?:

Here's to hoping Ozzie comes to his senses soon, or that KW forces him to with a Uribe trade.

To be fair, it's probably just because Richar showed up late to camp and isn't quite up to speed.

I'm usually first to jump on the "Ozzie hates young players" bus, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt in this case

Jjav829

03-18-2008, 02:58 PM

To be fair, it's probably just because Richar showed up late to camp and isn't quite up to speed.

I'm usually first to jump on the "Ozzie hates young players" bus, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt in this case

Yeah, I know Richar is to blame for showing up late. I'm more disappointed in the situation than Ozzie himself. It sucks that we traded away Garland to replace Uribe, and are now in a situation where Uribe will likely still be starting, and left with no one to replace Garland. Hopefully Richar comes on strong in the last 2 weeks.

fquaye149

03-18-2008, 03:00 PM

Best case scenario, imo, Ramirez pans out at 2B....

I really am not crazy about Uribe at 2B, but to be fair, Cabrera at SS, Uribe at 2B is still an improvement, probably, over Uribe at SS, Iguchi/Richar at 2B

soltrain21

03-18-2008, 03:51 PM

Ozzie is making a mistake. Richar is hitting .321 through 12 games in my Playstation 3 franchise.

Navarro's Talent

03-18-2008, 06:03 PM

Before ST started, I was pretty sure that Richar would get the starting job. It's amazing what a few weeks can do.

As Ozzie said, though, Uribe needs to prove he can hit consistenly. If he's having a rough go at it come May, I think Richar will get his opportunity.

guillen4life13

03-18-2008, 06:17 PM

I see it also as not as much a bad reflection on Richar as much as a good job by Uribe and a little bad luck (and perhaps absent mindedness, though I don't know how hard it is to get a visa into this country from a place like the D.R.). Maybe he needs this competition for a job to light the fire under his ass. It might have been what made him so much better in 2004--he had an actual chip on his shoulder because he knew that if he didn't do his job well, someone else would. Like this year.

If Uribe can hit .260 and have his normal power rate (on pace 20-25 HR) with an OBP around .310 in two months, he's almost guaranteed to get moved to make room for Richar or Ramirez. Someone else in the league will get injured and Uribe will be seen as a decent SS/2B that's available, or one of the current teams in need of a decent middle infielder will take him.

oeo

03-18-2008, 06:57 PM

To be fair, it's probably just because Richar showed up late to camp and isn't quite up to speed.

I'm usually first to jump on the "Ozzie hates young players" bus, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt in this case

I still think that everyone outside of White Sox Camp made a bigger deal about Richar showing up late than Ozzie himself.

His problem is his back. Can he stay healthy?

misty60481

03-18-2008, 07:47 PM

I agree about Richars back--maybe another Joe Crede type injury ? I think hes headed for AAA because he cant be traded if he cant pass a physical.

Sargeant79

03-18-2008, 08:06 PM

I agree about Richars back--maybe another Joe Crede type injury ? I think hes headed for AAA because he cant be traded if he cant pass a physical.

They're not looking to trade Richar. He will likely go to AAA to at least start the year, but I don't think an untimely back issue has changed the organization's plan of giving him the opportunity to be the second baseman of the future.

btrain929

03-18-2008, 08:14 PM

Best case scenario, imo, Ramirez pans out at 2B....

I really am not crazy about Uribe at 2B, but to be fair, Cabrera at SS, Uribe at 2B is still an improvement, probably, over Uribe at SS, Iguchi/Richar at 2B

No probably needed. It would be a definite improvement, and we'd have one of the best defensive infields in baseball. IF Uribe wins the 2B battle, I hope Ozzie reminds him everyday that if he gets into an extended slump, we have at least 2 people to bring up and replace him, and that'll keep him hitting and performing. Imagine if we could get a .265/.325 offensive year out of Uribe at 2B with 24 hrs and 78 rbi's. Then he'd be worth that 4.5 mil we gave him.

A. Cavatica

03-18-2008, 08:48 PM

Wooo. So we traded a reliable middle-of-the-order pitcher to acquire a new shortstop because our old shortstop was bad (offensively, his defense at short was fine). So what are we going to do with said old shortstop? Start him at second base. :?:

Here's to hoping Ozzie comes to his senses soon, or that KW forces him to with a Uribe trade.

When you go after (and get!) a player like Michael Dubee, you can live with some compromises elsewhere.

(Do I really need to put that in teal?)

fquaye149

03-18-2008, 08:50 PM

No probably needed. It would be a definite improvement, and we'd have one of the best defensive infields in baseball. IF Uribe wins the 2B battle, I hope Ozzie reminds him everyday that if he gets into an extended slump, we have at least 2 people to bring up and replace him, and that'll keep him hitting and performing. Imagine if we could get a .265/.325 offensive year out of Uribe at 2B with 24 hrs and 78 rbi's. Then he'd be worth that 4.5 mil we gave him.

It's not a given that Uribe can play 2B at a higher level than Iguchi did. That said, I think he probably can

Cuck the Fubs

03-18-2008, 08:57 PM

Ozzie is making a mistake. Richar is hitting .321 through 12 games in my Playstation 3 franchise.

:rolling:

I used the Ozzie plan and went with Uribe.

I have no issue with Ozzie opening up the season with Juan at 2nd.

However, I can say I'm pretty certain he will not be the starting 2B by the all star break.

We'll see what happens

champagne030

03-18-2008, 09:01 PM

Ramirez is the best defensive shortstop on the team besides Cabrera

Maybe if Uribe gets traded.

Tragg

03-18-2008, 10:03 PM

It's not a given that Uribe can play 2B at a higher level than Iguchi did. That said, I think he probably can
Uribe can't come close to Iguchi offensively. Uribe has a career obp of below .300 and has never had a single year obp of .330. Iguchi is a career OBP of .347. The chasm between those 2 is immense. Getting a .295 OBP out of a 2nd baseman is bad; so is paying $4 million for the privilege.

This is basically the same team as last year. Plus Swisher, minus Garland, plus some FA in the pen, minus a farm system. Bench consists of versatile slappers.
Uribe still given the chance to show "consistency" after showing none while starting for 4 years....high ceiling youngsters given 2 weeks and sent to AAA, to make room for the proven ceiling hackers.
What was gained through the off-season machinations?

oeo

03-18-2008, 11:27 PM

Uribe can't come close to Iguchi offensively. Uribe has a career obp of below .300 and has never had a single year obp of .330. Iguchi is a career OBP of .347. The chasm between those 2 is immense. Getting a .295 OBP out of a 2nd baseman is bad; so is paying $4 million for the privilege.

This is basically the same team as last year. Plus Swisher, minus Garland, plus some FA in the pen, minus a farm system. Bench consists of versatile slappers.
Uribe still given the chance to show "consistency" after showing none while starting for 4 years....high ceiling youngsters given 2 weeks and sent to AAA, to make room for the proven ceiling hackers.
What was gained through the off-season machinations?

Do you use these "terms" in every one of your posts? What's with the fascination of those words?

What was gained? As you mentioned, a veteran bullpen, a brighter future, leadership which was sorely lacked, and a hell of a lot more depth. Injuries will not kill the 2008 White Sox like they killed the 2007 Sox (before anyone says anything, I realize there were a ton of other problems).

Open your eyes, this team is a lot better than the 2007 team.

fquaye149

03-18-2008, 11:27 PM

Uribe can't come close to Iguchi offensively. Uribe has a career obp of below .300 and has never had a single year obp of .330. Iguchi is a career OBP of .347. The chasm between those 2 is immense. Getting a .295 OBP out of a 2nd baseman is bad; so is paying $4 million for the privilege.

Right ... at least on the offensive side and in the bullpen. To say that the 2007 team was better in THOSE categories is ridiculous. The starting pitchers ... not better in '08. But with them, there is that 'if' factor based on 'potential' ...

As for 2B, I'd like to see Ramirez there, but that's just my opinion (mainly because I'm not a fan of Uribe and don't think Ozuna is an everyday player). And, for those that are saying Richar isn't getting his time ... please! The coaches are seeing him on the practice fields, and I'm sure he's been playing in B games on the back fields (which won't show up in the ST Stats). If he hasn't gotten time in those situations, it would be because of something else. I mean, it's not like the coaches don't want to see what the guy has this spring. With that said (and assuming he's gotten time in those situations), if they haven't liked what they've seen from him, why should he have the opportunity (in the main games) to compete for the job against guys who are showing something?

guillen4life13

03-19-2008, 03:42 AM

I just looked at career stats for Iguchi and Cabrera and was surprised to find that they are very similar players in all but one category: OBP. Iguchi is much better here. Is Cabrera's off-the-field makeup such a huge issue? KW could have just kept Iguchi and not traded Garland, or signed Iguchi through free agency at a decent price. Main question: Iguchi better/worse than Cabrera? Iguchi is a good 2 hitter, as is Cabrera. Both are slick fielding middle infielders. Both born at the end of 1974. Both have started on World Series winners.

WhiteSox5187

03-19-2008, 05:03 AM

Do you use these "terms" in every one of your posts? What's with the fascination of those words?

What was gained? As you mentioned, a veteran bullpen, a brighter future, leadership which was sorely lacked, and a hell of a lot more depth. Injuries will not kill the 2008 White Sox like they killed the 2007 Sox (before anyone says anything, I realize there were a ton of other problems).

Open your eyes, this team is a lot better than the 2007 team.
You're not talking about our farm system here, are you? Because there isn't a whole lot there.

Having said that, if Ramirez can improve his D, I'd much rather see him at second than either Uribe or Richar.

Frater Perdurabo

03-19-2008, 08:54 AM

I just looked at career stats for Iguchi and Cabrera and was surprised to find that they are very similar players in all but one category: OBP. Iguchi is much better here. Is Cabrera's off-the-field makeup such a huge issue? KW could have just kept Iguchi and not traded Garland, or signed Iguchi through free agency at a decent price. Main question: Iguchi better/worse than Cabrera? Iguchi is a good 2 hitter, as is Cabrera. Both are slick fielding middle infielders. Both born at the end of 1974. Both have started on World Series winners.

Hmmm. Interesting point. I hadn't thought about it.

Jollyroger2

03-19-2008, 09:37 AM

I just looked at career stats for Iguchi and Cabrera and was surprised to find that they are very similar players in all but one category: OBP. Iguchi is much better here. Is Cabrera's off-the-field makeup such a huge issue? KW could have just kept Iguchi and not traded Garland, or signed Iguchi through free agency at a decent price. Main question: Iguchi better/worse than Cabrera? Iguchi is a good 2 hitter, as is Cabrera. Both are slick fielding middle infielders. Both born at the end of 1974. Both have started on World Series winners.

OBP isn't a light stat, and Cabrera consistently has a lot more steals too.

PicktoCLick72

03-19-2008, 10:09 AM

I just looked at career stats for Iguchi and Cabrera and was surprised to find that they are very similar players in all but one category: OBP. Iguchi is much better here. Is Cabrera's off-the-field makeup such a huge issue? KW could have just kept Iguchi and not traded Garland, or signed Iguchi through free agency at a decent price. Main question: Iguchi better/worse than Cabrera? Iguchi is a good 2 hitter, as is Cabrera. Both are slick fielding middle infielders. Both born at the end of 1974. Both have started on World Series winners.

Iguchi's career is also a much smaller sample size.

kittle42

03-19-2008, 10:34 AM

The only people comparing Iguchi to Cabrera would be Sox fans. :wink:

fquaye149

03-19-2008, 10:49 AM

The only people comparing Iguchi to Cabrera would be Sox fans. :wink:

It is a fair point considering that in our lineup Cabrera's bat is going to be replacing Iguchi's bat...

spiffie

03-19-2008, 10:50 AM

OBP isn't a light stat, and Cabrera consistently has a lot more steals too.
Actually, he doesn't have a lot more steals. Last year Iguchi had 14 steals, Cabrera had 20.

Granted Cabrera is a better fielder. But to see Kittle's statement you would think it was trying to compare Andy Gonzalez to Cal Ripken. What exactly is Cabrera bringing to the table that makes him that much better for the team than Iguchi. Are we really better off with Uribe at second, Cabrera at short, and Floyd in the rotation than we would be with Iguchi at second, Uribe at short, and Garland in the rotation?

Jollyroger2

03-19-2008, 11:27 AM

Actually, he doesn't have a lot more steals. Last year Iguchi had 14 steals, Cabrera had 20.

Granted Cabrera is a better fielder. But to see Kittle's statement you would think it was trying to compare Andy Gonzalez to Cal Ripken. What exactly is Cabrera bringing to the table that makes him that much better for the team than Iguchi. Are we really better off with Uribe at second, Cabrera at short, and Floyd in the rotation than we would be with Iguchi at second, Uribe at short, and Garland in the rotation?

And in 06 Cabrera had 27 steals, Iguchi 11. Cabrera 21-15 in 05 also. He consistently has more steals and is a ton better fielder. And like I said, OBP is nothing to sneeze at.

guillen4life13

03-19-2008, 11:40 AM

Are we really better off with Uribe at second, Cabrera at short, and Floyd in the rotation than we would be with Iguchi at second, Uribe at short, and Garland in the rotation?

Honest opinion: No. And I'd actually have had Ramirez and Uribe duking it out for the SS job.

What Tad doesn't give in stolen bases and maybe a marginal defensive difference, he gives in home runs and OBP. And Iguchi is a damn good defensive 2B. Sure he doesn't really know English so it would be hard for him to contribute to the whole clubhouse atmosphere and vocal leadership, but seriously, for this coming season, the Sox would be seen as marginal favorites to win the division even with Detroit's moves and Cleveland's success last year if they had one more reliable workhorse like Garland in the rotation for another year. It's not like the Sox have extended Cabrera anyways, so the only real perk to the trade would be the draft compensation if Cabrera declares free agency. I understand the idea of 20/20 hindsight, though we haven't played a single game yet, BUT I think that Garland is more along the lines of what the Sox need to be front runners in this division. Cabrera brings an offensive spark but I think Swisher would have been all the new offensive tweaking the Sox would have needed. And especially now with Ramirez giving such good performance in ST, the current situation at 2B would just be going on at SS between Uribe and Ramirez (who is a natural shortstop, btw).

Then the Sox have the same rotation as last year (except that this year you have Floyd waiting if Jose or Danks struggles), Danks gets the 4th starter slot, and Contreras is the 5th starter. Floyd is the long relief guy out of the pen, and when a starter goes down he slides back into the rotation. The offense is better with the Swisher addition and the IF defense is still very good. The outfield and bullpen would be in exactly the same situations that they're in now. The rotation, without question would have been better than the situation we're looking at now, unless somehow Danks or Floyd outperforms Garland.

guillen4life13

03-19-2008, 11:40 AM

And in 06 Cabrera had 27 steals, Iguchi 11. Cabrera 21-15 in 05 also. He consistently has more steals and is a ton better fielder. And like I said, OBP is nothing to sneeze at.

Except that Iguchi has the better OBP...

ChiTownTrojan

03-19-2008, 12:01 PM

And in 06 Cabrera had 27 steals, Iguchi 11. Cabrera 21-15 in 05 also. He consistently has more steals and is a ton better fielder. And like I said, OBP is nothing to sneeze at.
i'm not sure what you're arguing here, because you praise cabrera's speed but then go on to mention obp, which is higher for iguchi.

these stats also don't take into account defense, which cabrera (gold glove winner last year) wins by a mile. hey, it might also light a fire under uribe, since he'll be at a position now where there is some competition.

ChiTownTrojan

03-19-2008, 12:07 PM

Honest opinion: No. And I'd actually have had Ramirez and Uribe duking it out for the SS job.

What Tad doesn't give in stolen bases and maybe a marginal defensive difference, he gives in home runs and OBP. And Iguchi is a damn good defensive 2B. Sure he doesn't really know English so it would be hard for him to contribute to the whole clubhouse atmosphere and vocal leadership, but seriously, for this coming season, the Sox would be seen as marginal favorites to win the division even with Detroit's moves and Cleveland's success last year if they had one more reliable workhorse like Garland in the rotation for another year. It's not like the Sox have extended Cabrera anyways, so the only real perk to the trade would be the draft compensation if Cabrera declares free agency. I understand the idea of 20/20 hindsight, though we haven't played a single game yet, BUT I think that Garland is more along the lines of what the Sox need to be front runners in this division. Cabrera brings an offensive spark but I think Swisher would have been all the new offensive tweaking the Sox would have needed. And especially now with Ramirez giving such good performance in ST, the current situation at 2B would just be going on at SS between Uribe and Ramirez (who is a natural shortstop, btw).

Then the Sox have the same rotation as last year (except that this year you have Floyd waiting if Jose or Danks struggles), Danks gets the 4th starter slot, and Contreras is the 5th starter. Floyd is the long relief guy out of the pen, and when a starter goes down he slides back into the rotation. The offense is better with the Swisher addition and the IF defense is still very good. The outfield and bullpen would be in exactly the same situations that they're in now. The rotation, without question would have been better than the situation we're looking at now, unless somehow Danks or Floyd outperforms Garland.
We're talking about Jon Garland here, not Cy Young. He's a pitcher who's had one good year (2005) and a bunch of okay years (ERA around 4.5). I think it's certainly possible that Floyd can duplicate that or at least come close. Sorry, I was just never a big Garland fan, he's an average (and replaceable) pitcher.

Gammons Peter

03-19-2008, 12:26 PM

still can't believe Philly needed a second baseman and we got NOTHING in return for the Gootch

ilsox7

03-19-2008, 12:29 PM

still can't believe Philly needed a second baseman and we got NOTHING in return for the Gootch

:rolling:

guillen4life13

03-19-2008, 12:57 PM

still can't believe Philly needed a second baseman and we got NOTHING in return for the Gootch

We got Richar. I understand this. But it goes back to what the Sox really need right now. I'd rather have one more proven, reliable SP.

I know how good Garland was. He wasn't an ace but he ate a lot of innings and had very respectable years. So now you could look at it as a dual comparison of who the Sox would be better off having (for 2008): richar vs. garland, Cabrera vs. Iguchi.

I'm guessing you meant to use teal.

ilsox7

03-19-2008, 12:59 PM

I'm guessing you meant to use teal.

I thought the teal was implied. If not, then :o:.

Jollyroger2

03-19-2008, 01:02 PM

Except that Iguchi has the better OBP...

I lapsed into comparing Cabrera with Uribe probably. Yeah Iguchi's was higher but it wasn't all that much different. Don't know why Iguchi's part of the debate anyway, he's gone and gone.

Gammons Peter

03-19-2008, 03:02 PM

We got Richar.

no, we did not get Richar from Philly

guillen4life13

03-19-2008, 04:01 PM

no, we did not get Richar from Philly

My bad. Brain fart.

So what is Michael Dubee expected to do? All I know is that he's 22 years old and relatively fresh. Had a 3.96 ERA last year in A ball. Haven't been able to find much about his ceiling, stuff, etc.

fquaye149

03-19-2008, 04:29 PM

still can't believe Philly needed a second baseman and we got NOTHING in return for the Gootch

I can. He was a mediocre to below-average 2B in a walk year they were obtaining to start for a month and then back up Utley. He had 130 ****ing at-bats for the Phillies. What on earth did you expect them to give up? Or ANY team for that matter?

ilsox7

03-19-2008, 04:30 PM

I can. He was a mediocre to below-average 2B in a walk year they were obtaining to start for a month and then back up Utley. He had 130 ****ing at-bats for the Phillies. What on earth did you expect them to give up? Or ANY team for that matter?

I've said it a few times today, but it is simply amazing people think Iguchi had value.

fquaye149

03-19-2008, 04:38 PM

I've said it a few times today, but it is simply amazing people think Iguchi had value.

Check the Joe Crede threads to see how willing people are to overrate a light hitting 3B with serious range concerns due to MAJOR BACK SURGERY simply because he established himself as a solid everyday White Sox player.

I think that's the situation with Iguchi too...

ChiTownTrojan

03-19-2008, 05:02 PM

Check the Joe Crede threads to see how willing people are to overrate a light hitting 3B with serious range concerns due to MAJOR BACK SURGERY simply because he established himself as a solid everyday White Sox player.

I think that's the situation with Iguchi too...
Iguchi was also a light hitting 3B with serious range concerns due to MAJOR BACK SURGERY?

fquaye149

03-19-2008, 05:14 PM

Iguchi was also a light hitting 3B with serious range concerns due to MAJOR BACK SURGERY?

Yup. He could be the next Joe Crede

A. Cavatica

03-19-2008, 08:45 PM

My bad. Brain fart.

So what is Michael Dubee expected to do? All I know is that he's 22 years old and relatively fresh. Had a 3.96 ERA last year in A ball. Haven't been able to find much about his ceiling, stuff, etc.

Well, I expect him to suck. I don't think many baseball professionals would disagree.

Optipessimism

03-19-2008, 08:55 PM

I can. He was a mediocre to below-average 2B in a walk year they were obtaining to start for a month and then back up Utley. He had 130 ****ing at-bats for the Phillies. What on earth did you expect them to give up? Or ANY team for that matter?

The the only reason the Sox didn't get anything of value for him was because he couldn't be offered arbitration per his contract, therefore he was worth no compensation picks. Had the Sox been able to offer arb they would have asked for more in a trade or kept him on the team through the season, even if as a bench player. Iguchi likely would've classified as at least a Type B FA which is worth a second round pick, like another Nevin Griffith for example.

guillen4life13

03-19-2008, 09:11 PM

I've said it a few times today, but it is simply amazing people think Iguchi had value.

I don't see what's so bad about the way he played. He had decent years. Not great, not bad. I didn't see him as a bad fielder by any stretch, and offensively he did his job quite well, which was be a good 2 batter. He had a nice OBP and was a good sacrifice player. He wasn't a Ray Durham caliber player (not that that's great, but Durham was a pretty good player), but he did his job. As has already been shown, at least statistically, Iguchi and Cabrera are very comparable players. Cabrera is a bit better in the field and on the basepaths, but Iguchi wasn't much of a slouch in either area and gave a higher OPS. Three seasons is enough to gauge Iguchi's capabilities in this league, so I think it's also fair to be able to compare both players' careers. I do think that Cabrera, at his best, is a better player at this level. If Cabrera were to turn in a 2001, 2003, or 2007 type year, I would be more than satisfied. Hell, that type of production combined with such great defense would be incredible! If he plays like he did in 2005 or 2002, I wouldn't be so happy. I won't judge the earlier years of his career because I can't fairly compare him to Iguchi in that regard, plus he's shown he can be a very good offensive player. I just think that, if Cabrera plays to his career norms, having Iguchi around as opposed to Cabrera wouldn't make much of a difference.

If/when Cabrera signs an extension, I will let that trade go and say we came out nicely, or at least the trade had good basis (if Cabrera has a down year or two in pinstripes). But a deal hasn't happened yet, and I would really love to know why.

And I suppose this thread is almost moot now, since Uribe just got put on waivers (and whitesox.com confirms this). Must be with the main intentions of getting Richar some more AB's without cutting some away from Ramirez, who needs more time at 2B get get comfortable. He's already shown he can play a decent CF.

God, I can't tell you how optimistic and excited I am about some of Chicago's newer, young position players. I can't wait to see them in action! Swisher (1B once Thome leaves, so PK slides to DH to save his hips as he ages), Quentin (RF of the future), Owens (LF of the future and possibly leadoff hitter), Anderson (CF of the future--I hope his spring performance is a sign of good production from this guy), Richar (as long as he's healthy, he should be the 2B of the future), and Ramirez (SS of the future if Cabrera leaves--if not, then Anderson gets traded for Ramirez to take over CF). I see the new generation right in front of us (at least I really hope so).

Can't wait for opening day and this 2008 season! I don't see a playoff spot but I see a team that could develop into a very mean club in a year's time, and could be a very good team in '09. This youth infusion seems almost like a changing of the guard, but I like the talent I've seen and read about.

Sidenote: Anyone have any recommendations for how to watch games since I'm down here at UMiami? I want to see games when I'm not too busy with work or classes but probably won't need the whole season. I don't get WGN and I don't have satellite TV or any way to buy such a package because it's expensive and I live in uni housing anyways. Is MLB.TV good? How is its transfer rate, a/v quality? Is it worth the monthly cost, in your opinion? Any out of towners want to help me with some of your wisdom on this?