Pistol Tony

Why can't we incorporate parts of the pistol offense with Tony Romo? He is athletic and smart enough and has as good or better arm than all the other Pistol Offense QBs.
Tony has great escapability and he is fast enough to run foe positive yardage.
Let's not let the NFL run away from us! :laugh2:

I think being elusive and being a good runner are not the same thing. Tony is elusive.

I don't think the read option goes away entirely, but selective use a few times a game can be effective. The game is so fast on both offense and defense, any thing that the offense can do to make the defense react a split second slower sometimes is enough to give a blocker an edge, or a runner the time to find the crease. As long as you can do it, and not subject the qb to brutal hits, it should find a niche in the NFL

When the QB is considered a runner the defense can in fact tee off. That has happened more and more with teams even willing to take 15 yard penalties to make those hard hits on QBs. That is the single largest reason this stuff will cease. If RG3 comes back next year but takes another hit in the legs and tears his ACL again because he was running read-option Shanahan will need full-time security. If Redskin fans don't lynch him plenty of folks in the state of Texas will be ready to. RG3 lead insanely effective college offense without needing to run much or use read-option stuff.

...No offense that places the QB in danger regularly will last.

A month or two ago I probably declared this exact thing: It's much quarterback injury risk to have them running. But then while watching the Atlanta-Seattle game I started comparing who was taking the most punishment.

Ryan is one of the less mobile quarterbacks in the NFL and he was getting slammed...in some very vulnerable positions. A lot of big hits just as he released the ball. (A week later we of course witnessed Ryan being injured right at the most crucial point of the 49er game.)

Meanwhile Wilson, while in the pocket, was using his legs to create tremendous air between him and the defenders. When he did run he was usually smart to avoid big hits.

Wilson has tremendous balance and a compact frame.

RG3, contrastively, has some long gangly legs. That guy is going to be perpetually vulnerable to knee injury no matter what style of offense he plays in.

I suspect RGIII and Johnny Manziel are going to have short careers and miss games. But when they are healthy...they are going to be devastatingly dangerous in a pistol type offense.

First, Griffin has gotten hurt both times because he didn't know how to end a play safely. Never because of the Pistol Formation, or on a zone-read play.

When the qb is determined to be a runner the defense can tee off, that is true. But Griffin, and other zone read qbs, know before the defense knows that they are not the runner, and Griffin learned quick to show that he is not a runner. That's why we didn't see him getting it a ton after his hand offs in the zone read game late in the season.

Your last statement is just a false comparison. Tebow behind center or a wildcat set lets your defense know it's not going to be a successful deep pass. A pistol formation keeps all the main characters, qb, rb, fb, te and wr, in their "natural" position, so the defense can't pre-snap tee off or dismiss one threat.

Time will tell, but as I said in the earlier post, the pistol formation was used against non-pistol opponents in about 25 games, and had a win loss ratio of 80%. I think the NFL offenses will take note of that. The wildcat never showed anywhere near that amount of promise.

Things that aren't debatable at all:
1. Redskins likely done with read-option.
2. Pistol is just a formation twist on a shotgun; but it is not a standard lineup of players. It is a one back hybrid that uses a short shotgun.
3. QBs who run the ball take more hits than those who throw it away.
4. Each QB hit takes a toll on the QB.
5. Miami (which had no real QB) won games with the Wildcat and that popularized the formation.

Other stuff which is more theory or opinion:
1. SF played one team and looked terrible the second half of the season and that team faces the pistol every day in practice.
2. The two pistol teams who faced each other in the playoffs combined for less than 300 gross passing yards.
3. Seattle was a mere 1 of 6 in that game versus Washington once they hit the red zone.
4. DE/OLB can actually start to take away RBs and leave the QB. That forces the QB to run and thus risk LBs hitting them very hard.
5. Because the QB and HB are at the same spot for the read, the DE can actually hit both players.

Defending the Pistol:
Basically you want to play a cover 3 type defense and mix in liberal use of blitzes. The single deep back and short shotgun make getting shots on the QB fairly easy. Because of this you see very few deep patterns NORMALLY.

As we saw in game 1, Wash knew the Cowboys were preparing for a pistol and they flat out suckered them up then went deep.
BUT, the second half adjustments in that game lend itself to exactly what I mean about NFL teams getting better and better versus the formation. Even with a massive lead Washington allowed 3 sacks and only scored 10 second half points.

A month or two ago I probably declared this exact thing: It's much quarterback injury risk to have them running. But then while watching the Atlanta-Seattle game I started comparing who was taking the most punishment.

Ryan is one of the less mobile quarterbacks in the NFL and he was getting slammed...in some very vulnerable positions. A lot of big hits just as he released the ball. (A week later we of course witnessed Ryan being injured right at the most crucial point of the 49er game.)

Meanwhile Wilson, while in the pocket, was using his legs to create tremendous air between him and the defenders. When he did run he was usually smart to avoid big hits.

Wilson has tremendous balance and a compact frame.

RG3, contrastively, has some long gangly legs. That guy is going to be perpetually vulnerable to knee injury no matter what style of offense he plays in.

I suspect RGIII and Johnny Manziel are going to have short careers and miss games. But when they are healthy...they are going to be devastatingly dangerous in a pistol type offense.

The Skins are set up pretty good. They have RG3...AND a good backup.

The Skins won't run the pistol anymore and the Seahawks won't win anything with that offense going forward. Pistol QBs absolutely take more hits than standard formation QBs do. ATL has a huge hole at pass rusher.

Atlanta won the game by shutting out the Seahawks in the first half.

The Seahawks abandoned any real Pistol or read option stuff because they were down huge and ran a basic 2 minute offense. Seattle carved up a bend but dont break defense in the second half but didn't score enough to complete the comeback. There was very little different above what Dallas did to Wash in the 2nd half of game 1 and what Sea did to ATL. Romo threw for more yards because thats what he does and Wilson rushed for more because that's what he does, but the scheme was basically the same. 1 back, 2 minute package type stuff.

Things that aren't debatable at all:
1. Redskins likely done with read-option.
2. Pistol is just a formation twist on a shotgun; but it is not a standard lineup of players. It is a one back hybrid that uses a short shotgun.
3. QBs who run the ball take more hits than those who throw it away.
4. Each QB hit takes a toll on the QB.
5. Miami (which had no real QB) won games with the Wildcat and that popularized the formation.

Other stuff which is more theory or opinion:
1. SF played one team and looked terrible the second half of the season and that team faces the pistol every day in practice.
2. The two pistol teams who faced each other in the playoffs combined for less than 300 gross passing yards.
3. Seattle was a mere 1 of 6 in that game versus Washington once they hit the red zone.
4. DE/OLB can actually start to take away RBs and leave the QB. That forces the QB to run and thus risk LBs hitting them very hard.
5. Because the QB and HB are at the same spot for the read, the DE can actually hit both players.

Defending the Pistol:
Basically you want to play a cover 3 type defense and mix in liberal use of blitzes. The single deep back and short shotgun make getting shots on the QB fairly easy. Because of this you see very few deep patterns NORMALLY.

As we saw in game 1, Wash knew the Cowboys were preparing for a pistol and they flat out suckered them up then went deep.
BUT, the second half adjustments in that game lend itself to exactly what I mean about NFL teams getting better and better versus the formation. Even with a massive lead Washington allowed 3 sacks and only scored 10 second half points.

"non-debatable" points
1) you are wrong (well at least it's not a debate type answer )
2) agree
3) semi agree, on the run option later in the year, you saw all the running qb's taking sideline angles. Even hobbling, Griffin was able to get a 9 yd run on Seattle's d, and as another poster said, I saw pocket qb's take several hard shots in the course of the playoffs. The key is more that you have to play smart, and throw away, slide or get out of bounds instead of being the "superman" of the NFL
4) agree
5) The % Miami won with the wildcat is in no way comparable to the win % and pts per game that the Pistol offense put up against the rest of the league. so while the point is non-debatable, it's fairly irrelevant.

theory/opinion:
1) I am not saying the pistol or the zone read option are unstoppable, only that they both can be used effectively in today's NFL. If you watched the SF Seattle game, you know that the 49ers lost that due to the 12th man effect, and couldn't even execute simple plays.
2) I don't think Griffin in the playoff game is worth discussing. Look at the 1st quarter when he was near full speed. Wilson only put up more than 300 passing yards once, against Atlanta, a team that has played Cam Newton 4 times, the Skins 1 time, and is most likely a good blue print for other teams to follow.
3) The skins were a high % red zone offense, but I guess if you are trying to say it doesn't work as well in the red zone I don't really know one way or the other. There were times we could score easily and times when opponents shut it down.
4) That is what a lot of teams did do, but the third option of the pistol is the quick screen or mid field pass, both of which leave the qb protected but open to a shot if a olb is fast enough, of course the TE will get his 7-10 yards. It's still a physical game.
5) ok, again, in real games, Griffin, Wilson, and CK were not taking big hits from the pistol, why, because they know what is coming and could protect themselves with good decisions.

The one truly non-debatable point is that this off-season, a lot of defensive and offensive brain power is going to be invested around the use of both the pistol formation, and the zone read option play and next year will tell a lot about its long term viability.

The Skins won't run the pistol anymore and the Seahawks won't win anything with that offense going forward. Pistol QBs absolutely take more hits than standard formation QBs do. ATL has a huge hole at pass rusher.

Atlanta won the game by shutting out the Seahawks in the first half.

The Seahawks abandoned any real Pistol or read option stuff because they were down huge and ran a basic 2 minute offense. Seattle carved up a bend but dont break defense in the second half but didn't score enough to complete the comeback. There was very little different above what Dallas did to Wash in the 2nd half of game 1 and what Sea did to ATL. Romo threw for more yards because thats what he does and Wilson rushed for more because that's what he does, but the scheme was basically the same. 1 back, 2 minute package type stuff.

From Advanced NFL Stats:
QB hits:
Washington and Atlanta are tied at #6 giving up 80. SF had one less than Dallas (72,71) Seattle had 70, Carolina had 58. Other notables: Indianpolis had 114, GB had 92, New England has 77. We aren't talking about game changing increased numbers of hits. Every NFL qb takes hits.

Brady went out for a year due to a hit, Manning as well, Theismann ended his career due to a hit.

Like I said before, with the protections afforded a qb, he can manage the hits, he just has to be smart, and live to play another day.

Well, it's a standard hand-off, but the defense is down one man if an OLB or DE stays with the qb each time. That is kind of the point why a runner like Morris or Gore who can get yards after initial contact can excel when the QB can freeze one of the defensive starters, if even for just 1 second.

For the record, teams using the pistol formation in the second half of the season (when d coordinators all had tape from Griffin's first half, and Newton last year) against non-pistol teams:
SF: 7-1, one OT loss to St Louis, avg points scored 30.1
Sea: 4-1, only loss to Atl in playoffs, avg points scored 35.8
Was: 9-5, avg points scored 27.8 (didn't count the carolina loss, or the cleveland win)

Just to be clear, those stats are from the time a team implemented the pistol as a standard part of it's playbook (so when CK started, and in Seattle's case from the Bears game as most commentators agree that is when they added it in to their playbook as a regular part). I didn't count pistol vs pistol games because they would obviously balance out, one winner and one loser per game.

Certainly defensive coordinators are going to study up on this offense, and figure out ways to reduce it's effectiveness, but these numbers would seem to indicate that a lot of OC's are going to try and find ways to bring parts of the scheme into theirs as well.

Really good post. This is why I think Romo can execute the Pistol as well as these other QBs. He has the added ability to make the correct read, hand off or fade back and toss it to an open wide out.

Really good post. This is why I think Romo can execute the Pistol as well as these other QBs. He has the added ability to make the correct read, hand off or fade back and toss it to an open wide out.

You need an offensive line to be able to hold up their blocks during this time, and since they've proven to be poorer at run blocking than pass blocking, unless it's much improved this year I can't see them pulling it off consistently enough to make it worthwhile.

Really good post. This is why I think Romo can execute the Pistol as well as these other QBs. He has the added ability to make the correct read, hand off or fade back and toss it to an open wide out.

You need an offensive line to be able to hold up their blocks during this time, and since they've proven to be poorer at run blocking than pass blocking, unless it's much improved this year I can't see them pulling it off consistently enough to make it worthwhile.

the skins offensive line was essentially the same one that most of our fans wanted replaced. If the defense is forced to play the whole 0-10 yards due to quick screen and mid range pass possibilities they can't pressure as well. a bit of proof for this is to look at our lines performance in pure passing downs. Our RT couldn't block any one in pass pro, which is why Griffin scrambled in the baltimore game which led to his injury. No formation, or play, is a miracle drug in the NFL, but if a formation or play can cause the defense or even one key defender to hesitate, then that may be the difference your blocker or runner needs to get win the play.

I think the thing to watch is how defenses will play the pistol/option next season after DCs have an entire offseason to study it.

If defenses still are having problems, you might see more and more teams start to use this style of offense. However, if defenses start shutting down this offense, you will see more and more teams going back to a more traditional offense.

I do agree with the general premise that the main weakness to the pistol/option offense is that your QB takes alot more hits. That eventually is what killed the run and shoot, teams just started teeing off on the QB instead of trying to cover all of these small, fast, smurf WRs like the Houston Oilers had. Once QBs started getting their teeth knocked out, OCs started leaving more people in to block and that pretty much was the end of the run and shoot.

Well, it's a standard hand-off, but the defense is down one man if an OLB or DE stays with the qb each time. That is kind of the point why a runner like Morris or Gore who can get yards after initial contact can excel when the QB can freeze one of the defensive starters, if even for just 1 second.

For the record, teams using the pistol formation in the second half of the season (when d coordinators all had tape from Griffin's first half, and Newton last year) against non-pistol teams:
SF: 7-1, one OT loss to St Louis, avg points scored 30.1
Sea: 4-1, only loss to Atl in playoffs, avg points scored 35.8
Was: 9-5, avg points scored 27.8 (didn't count the carolina loss, or the cleveland win)

Just to be clear, those stats are from the time a team implemented the pistol as a standard part of it's playbook (so when CK started, and in Seattle's case from the Bears game as most commentators agree that is when they added it in to their playbook as a regular part). I didn't count pistol vs pistol games because they would obviously balance out, one winner and one loser per game.

Certainly defensive coordinators are going to study up on this offense, and figure out ways to reduce it's effectiveness, but these numbers would seem to indicate that a lot of OC's are going to try and find ways to bring parts of the scheme into theirs as well.

Really good post. This is why I think Romo can execute the Pistol as well as these other QBs. He has the added ability to make the correct read, hand off or fade back and toss it to an open wide out.