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Topic: Your website is wonderful [#1555] (Read 4112 times)

I have seen both your websites and I love them. My wife is Iglesia Ni Cristo aFilipino christian religion and I hope to break her of her delusion with yourwebsites along with other material. I know she is a smart person I just hope she cansee through the delusion. Since prayer doesn't work and luck doesn't work either andtechnically wishing for the best wouldn't help, please hope for the best and I amsuccessful.

Many people (most?) who revert to atheism in stages don't jump right to atheism. They tend to shift from authoritarian and supernatural religions towards some more reasoned and contemplative religion before dropping the religion itself. One of the final religions before atheism often is some form of deism.

So, if your wife is unlikely to acknowledge that gods are not plausable, instead of shooting for a quick and complete deconversion from Christianity, you might want to take the stand of an agnostic deist; a deity of some sort is possible, and may have started the universe, yet the Christian God as described in the Bible is either not that deity or the Christians do not have a good description of their own deity.

To smooth that transition away from dogma, consider a version of the Bible compiled by a likely deist -- Thomas Jefferson (3rd President USA) with all the nasty and superstitious parts cut out;

The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth(Also known as "The Jefferson Bible")

I showed her a video (10 questions) and she looked visibly uncomfortable, and got a little upset. Oh well at least she has something to think about for a couple days.

Welcome to the forums!

[ getting pushy here ] I recommend that you do not make her too uncomfortable. She may end up being "strengthened" by the conflict, and cling to her religious/supernatural/superstitious beliefs that much more. Many of the long-time theists to the forums here have mentioned that they use conflict with atheist ideas as a means to test themselves..

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Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice. --Sir James George Frazer

Yes when I saw her start to get uncomfortable I backed off. The problem with her specific case is its basically cult Christianity. You can get a basic idea of her religion by reading the wikipedia article.

The problem with her specific case is its basically cult Christianity.

Sorry to hear that. It makes getting her off of that all the more difficult. You might want to track down some former members and get advice from them on what to do. Unfortunately, I can't think of any resources that cover that group.

Basically this is the only church and all the other Christian churches are wrong.

That's so common that a term was coined for it on the forums here;

SelfProjectionAsGod

SPAG. Basically, most Christians think that they have the one and only true (or True(tm)) version of Christianity. They treat their own wishes as equal to those of the Christian deity. Usually this is most clearly shown when it becomes obvious when they express hate or anger towards someone or some group -- and then say that they really don't hate anyone, but that God must punish people who are doing wrong or evil. That is, those people they happen to hate.

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Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice. --Sir James George Frazer

I have studied their doctrines and technically I am a former member, but I wasn't a member for very long at all. Their doctrine is full of holes.

I asked her out of the blue one day if she believed in dinosaurs and she said yes. I also asked her how old the earth was and she said she wasn't sure.

She doesn't actually KNOW very much about Christianity, and her church's doctrine basically repeats the same couple things:

1. If you are not a member of the church you will go to hell.2. If you do not attend the worship service twice a week (yeah twice for these guys for more money I guess) you will go to hell.3. "SUBMIT" to the church administration "appointed by god"

Actually they care more about you staying inside the church than anything else. The whole doctrine is structured around it.They are not encouraged to read the bible at all and even go as far as to say "God needs to appoint someone for them to havethe right to preach the gospel". Of course the person in charge of appointing these ministers isn't god but the "church administration".

They take attendance, you have to flip a namecard when you walk in the door, they check who offers and doesn't, they makeyou give written statements as to why you missed a worship day if you miss.

I think you get the point by now.

She only believes the stuff the minister and the church administration say. That's it. They (the church administration)could say Jesus had 10 heads and breathed fire like a dragon and they (the members)wouldn't know it because they haven't even picked up a bible.

then of course there is a trip to the library, for a history lesson to connect the dots.

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The classical man is just a bundle of routine, ideas and tradition. If you follow the classical pattern, you are understanding the routine, the tradition, the shadow, you are not understanding yourself. Truth has no path. Truth is living and therefore changing. Bruce lee

Showing her things written in that format seems to get her defensive. At one point she even said "if you believe that then I pity you".

Those words almost made me want to cry.

She was born and raised in this church and she just hit 27 years old, so detox is going to take a long time. She did however seem toenjoy the zeitgeist movie. Videos are much better as she hates to read.

The classical man is just a bundle of routine, ideas and tradition. If you follow the classical pattern, you are understanding the routine, the tradition, the shadow, you are not understanding yourself. Truth has no path. Truth is living and therefore changing. Bruce lee

Maybe keep it non-personal to avoid getting her defenses up. Drop in the occasional analysis of tragedies and inexplicable suffering. Like people claiming "miracle" if they were not killed while others along side them were. Maybe introduce the stupidity of other religions (check out the discussions of dentistry miracles on this website )Avoid escalating to the point where she (or you) becomes emotional - rational thinking doesn't mix well with emotions.

1. If you are not a member of the church you will go to hell.2. If you do not attend the worship service twice a week (yeah twice for these guys for more money I guess) you will go to hell.3. "SUBMIT" to the church administration "appointed by god"

Also it is probably worth it to mention that in her doctrine, it is belief that only Iglesia ni Cristo members have the right to prayand god will only answer prayers of INC members. So she could say that certain people were not cured because god only answersINC prayers. It's a deep delusion.

1. If you are not a member of the church you will go to hell.2. If you do not attend the worship service twice a week (yeah twice for these guys for more money I guess) you will go to hell.3. "SUBMIT" to the church administration "appointed by god"

I think you're in for a rocky ride. My wife is a member of the Mormon Church and although there are a couple of major theological differences I see a lot of similarity between Mormonism and Iglesia ni Cristo. In fact, that first paragraph in the wiki article you linked to could be about Joseph Smith with only a few minor changes. Both churches are very cultish in the extent to which they control their members’ lives. The church wants members to be thoroughly assimilated, invested and dependent on it as well as seriously afraid to question anything the leaders say. The church tries to control exactly how you see everything. The conditioning is strong and pervasive. And from the inside, it is very difficult to really see the problems. Questioning the tenets of the church is simply not allowed. But when they receive absolute conformity, the church "family" is usually completely and effusively loving, caring, helpful and supportive. It is conditional love, there is no doubt. But losing the church can seem to members to be a fate worse than death.

I have been trying for a long time to get my wife to discuss the things I view as problems with her church and religions in general. Unless I talk specifically about other religions, taking the direct approach usually backfires and she gets angry or scared. I have to make sure I don’t say anything that can be construed as an attack. I try to phrase every question as being “my” problem or difficulty with it. She is an intelligent person too which is the only thing going in my favor. She accepts me for what I am these days but at first she thought my being an atheist was almost the end of the world. Anyway, I pick my battles carefully and have actually made some inroads but they are often minuscule and fragile. It seems that when I make some progress, the church steps in and erases most or all of it with their manipulative tactics, reinforcing and reasserting their control. If I could get her away from them for a while, I think I might be able to reach her more effectively. But doing that is next to impossible.

Like you I was a member of my wife's church for a while. Being apostate is usually considered to be worse than anything short of being Satan himself. It would be better to be a member of another religion or even an atheist who was never associated with the church. Apostates are generally considered to have been seduced by Satan and thus we are the last people to whom their members should ever listen. Since they consider their church to be the one true Christian religion, the very elect of God, they think Satan targets their members specifically with more concentrated effort than anyone else because, of course, it will do more damage to God's plan to subvert his special people. But being your wife she probably doesn’t view you quite like that. My wife trusts my judgment on most everything else. I guess that is another thing in my favor.

I know this doesn't sound very encouraging but I just think it will be best if you don't think it is ever going to be easy. I think object lessons are usually more effective than philosophical discussion or arguing theology directly. For instance, If there is ever a time when my wife starts to see something the leaders have done as unfair, I try to capitalize on that and get her to keep thinking about it. I guess you could say I'm sowing the seeds of dissent but it has to be subtle and it's best if it starts with her. I wish you luck and I'd be happy to share experiences with you if you think it would help.

The answer to that may seem more discouraging than anything I said before. I've been working on my wife about theism for about 18 years.

But you love your wife despite her belief and that is what keeps your going. I haven't been married nearly as long as you have as I am only 20. I am not sure what I can do to make this any easier on myself. My wife wastes a huge amount of time at the church during a normal week. Has to be there 1:30 early and and stay for the normal 1 hour worship twice a week. Once a week she is there another extra hour and a half for practice singing (member of the choir) and every time it gets close to "Church anniversary" Or "Thanksgiving" or as I like to call it "Give us lots of money" season, she is at the church daily to pray for 30-45 minutes. On top of that they have "emergency choir practice" (No idea what the emergency could be) and the list goes on. Life would be so much better without this burden and time wasting.

Recent conversation with my wife, trying to make her think:(Note, She as a Filipino speaks fluent Tagalog but I can only speak conversational Tagalog.Note that she avoids answering what the scripture says fully as it makes her uncomfortable)

Quote

Josh: what does this sayJosh: i dont understand itJosh: 1 Corinthians 14

35. At kung ibig nilang maalaman ang anomang bagay, magtanong sila sa kanilang asawa sa bahay; sapagka't mahalay na ang isang babae ay magsalita sa iglesia.Therry: its like woman should obey husband like thatTherry: duh you listend to the doctrinesTherry: just the sameJosh: but it says something about women not being able to speak in churchJosh: right?Therry: i already explained duhJosh: i wasnt sure if it said the same thing as the english version wowJosh: god said women cant speak in churchJosh: The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says.Josh: If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.Therry: didnt i told you to SEEK a MINISTERTherry: if EVERYTHING IS UNCLEAR TO YOUJosh: its not unclearJosh: its clear that women aren't allowed to speak in churchTherry: God made the bible not literal for all people to know what is really meant by all the phrases words he said (sorry her english isn't perfect)

As I said before they basically admit to not knowing jack about their own religion only the ministers know what they are talking about.She told me to ask the minister, which I would love to do but she declined to accompany me.

There are plenty of things to say about theism in general, and Christianity specifically, that can be backed up with solid evidence. Zeitgeist raises some issues that have been investigated, though I disagree with many of the details in it as well as the conclusions.

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Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice. --Sir James George Frazer

There are plenty of things to say about theism in general, and Christianity specifically, that can be backed up with solid evidence. Zeitgeist raises some issues that have been investigated, though I disagree with many of the details in it as well as the conclusions.

While Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris appear in it, pay attention to a couple of the less public people in it such as Robert M. Price and Richard Carrier. Carrier has gone head to head with
. Robert Price has a podcast called "The Bible Geek" where he is open to any question. Both are professors and have published quite a few good books.

The main point of that movie outrages many Christians;

There is no -- zero, zip, zilch, nada, ... -- record of Jesus Christ of the Christian Bible till well after he had supposedly died.

Nobody noticed him while he supposedly was alive.

Nobody wrote about him when he was supposedly alive.

Yet, when asked for a single bit of evidence that shows that is not the case, they come up empty handed.

Note that I do not say that there absolutely is no possibility that there was a Jesus Christ as roughly described in the Christian Bible. Carrier does, but his argument is one that even he admits requires quite a bit of specialized research.

That said, as a mere mortal, the silence is deafening. You would think that if a god walked the Earth, that someone would have written a note home about it, let alone some local officials or interested historian.

So, if you introduce her to that idea, I recommend keeping it simple; nobody wrote about Jesus till well after he had supposedly died.

That said, there are lists 'proving' Jesus lived, and they tend to use valid historians. The important detail, though, is that none of them were writing (many were not even alive) at the time Jesus supposedly lived. (Also, some of the words are considered forgeries -- additions -- such as those by Josephus about Jesus.)

« Last Edit: July 10, 2009, 11:28:16 AM by Hermes »

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Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice. --Sir James George Frazer

While Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris appear in it, pay attention to a couple of the less public people in it such as Robert M. Price and Richard Carrier. Carrier has gone head to head with
. Robert Price has a podcast called "The Bible Geek" where he is open to any question. Both are professors and have published quite a few good books.

The main point of that movie outrages many Christians;

There is no -- zero, zip, zilch, nada, ... -- record of Jesus Christ of the Christian Bible till well after he had supposedly died.

Nobody noticed him while he supposedly was alive.

Nobody wrote about him when he was supposedly alive.

Yet, when asked for a single bit of evidence that shows that is not the case, they come up empty handed.

Note that I do not say that there absolutely is no possibility that there was a Jesus Christ as roughly described in the Christian Bible. Carrier does, but his argument is one that even he admits requires quite a bit of specialized research.

That said, as a mere mortal, the silence is deafening. You would think that if a god walked the Earth, that someone would have written a note home about it, let alone some local officials or interested historian.

So, if you introduce her to that idea, I recommend keeping it simple; nobody wrote about Jesus till well after he had supposedly died.

That said, there are lists 'proving' Jesus lived, and they tend to use valid historians. The important detail, though, is that none of them were writing (many were not even alive) at the time Jesus supposedly lived. (Also, some of the words are considered forgeries -- additions -- such as those by Josephus about Jesus.)

I am thinking about going to her minister and pretty much having a debate with him about it with her present. I am not sure how it would go though becauseyou know when a christian gets desperate they start to make things up. The problem with that is, if I asked him to prove his words, my wife would already be gone.

That might be too blunt and end up causing you quite a few problems. Even non-cultish churches tend to lash out when threatened; either you are with them or you are against them.[1] If you are against them, you are inhuman and can be mistreated as such. A single well placed comment or fact can be effective, though.

Consider visiting these groups and asking questions before you stir bees barehanded;

* Ex-Christian - "This site is designed with the intention of encouraging ex-Christians, former Christians, de-converting Christians and other non-believers in the decision to live life based on rational thought rather than religious mythology."