New LFR1100 woofer

New LFR1100 woofer - 06/11/1308:08 PM

Below are some pictures of Andrew’s latest creation. This new 6.5” driver incorporates a much larger motor, larger diameter voice coil, and much longer excursion compared to the current LFR1100 woofer. After a lot of modelling on the FEA (Finite Element Analyses) software and a lot of physical samples built by Mike this new driver is complete. This new 6.5” woofer has much more power handling and stronger bass; which will complement the sheer output capabilities of the LFR1100 perfectly. Existing LFR1100s can be upgraded to these woofers. In addition there will be a new model that incorporates this driver called the M100, but more on that soon.

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 06/11/1308:42 PM

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 06/11/1308:45 PM

Ok, i have a follow up question.

With the new drivers, will there be a corresponding DSP software "upgrade"? I would guess that with the new drivers, the system will be able to reach lower frequencies than before? Thus, possibly new software to take that into account?

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 06/11/1309:14 PM

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 06/11/1309:19 PM

Ah, so the "M100", which I've made facetious reference to in the past, is about to become reality.

Ian, the Thiele-Small parameters on the new woofers would be of interest, especially the max excursion and Fs.

Alex, a high quality 6 1/2" aluminum cone woofer might run about $60 as a guesstimate(we don't know the parameters), although some are over $100. Then of course there would also be software modifications needed.

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 06/11/1309:32 PM

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 06/11/1309:38 PM

Ah, so the "M100", which I've made facetious reference to in the past, is about to become reality.

Ian, the Thiele-Small parameters on the new woofers would be of interest, especially the max excursion.

Alex, a high quality 6 1/2" aluminum cone woofer might run about $60 as a guesstimate(we don't know the parameters), although some are over $100. Then of course there would also be software modifications needed.

John I would be very surprised to see TS released, I asked for the TS on the 4.5 mids via email from brent. It was strictly for comparison purposes versus my testing and was politely shuffled out the door so to speak LOL

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 06/11/1309:48 PM

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 06/11/1310:01 PM

Originally Posted By: JohnK

Richard, since there's no particular difficulty in measuring those by anyone with the equipment and knowledge, I'd hope that your outlook is too pessimistic.

I don't understand what your saying john?? How is it pessimistic?? Brent said it was proprietary information. This seemed odd since there is information all over the WWW for a lot of different speakers. All I was saying is if they wont give that info via email they certainly aren't likely to give it on the forum.

PS - I have a rig I made myself using REW and I also own a tester I bought from Parts Express, since I had axiom drivers I was hoping to compare my finding versus the manufacturer's specs. I even offered to send him my specs and he could say they were close or they weren't close, he did not even respond to that email.

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 06/11/1310:11 PM

As you say, the T-S parameters are basic information published by all driver manufacturers to allow evaluation of their products by prospective purchasers. It's more than "odd" to claim that this is "proprietary information". So, I'm optimistic that the reality of the situation will apply now.

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 06/12/1308:50 AM

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 06/12/1309:56 AM

Doh, that means my better half may notice something different... Do you have a reality distortion field adapter to make them appear as M80s?

Man, I don't think I will be able to pull this off as I just did a big upgrade a few weeks ago. I don't think my wife is buying my story that "no honey, nothing's changed in the TV stand". I upgraded my VP150 to a 180. Also swapped the rears for M3s but she didn't notice that.

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 06/12/1301:36 PM

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 06/12/1301:39 PM

Yes, Brent and I were discussing what can be done for existing M80 owners to take advantage of this upgrade and we will be finalizing that in the next few days.

I'm guessing it may require a crossover change with and if the M80's can feel the love too I just got mine too ;(

I dont think the m80's would need a new crossover. the main reason the LFR's will need new software is due to the level of control the DSP has. A crossover network is a much simpler electrical device. the new woofers would probably have a similar high end as the current ones, and mainly play lower. thus, the current crossover "should" work perfectly fine.

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 06/14/1306:34 PM

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 06/14/1306:54 PM

Shazzzzzzzam , those are huge. I don't have room for those in my little ol house. Are those the new 6.5" woofers in there?? Do you have a graph for the M80 for comparison. I'm assuming that graph was done in the chamber.

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 06/14/1308:38 PM

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 06/14/1309:04 PM

Thanks ian. To my not really experience eye's the M100 looks to have a huge gain down low ,while the upper range remains basically the same. Given the layout of both speakers this is what I expected to see. On the M100 was there more bracing added over what the m80 has and how does it compare to the extensive bracing in the Model T.

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 06/14/1309:12 PM

Yes, there are lots of gains down low and even more than is evident in these graphs because they will play much louder before compression in the lower frequencies. The M100 has a window brace between each component so that equals 7 braces, same as the LFR1100. The Model T has three powerful 8” woofers and two additional vertical braces to accommodate that.

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 06/14/1310:58 PM

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 06/14/1311:35 PM

Fred, note that the equations for bass extension make use of Fs and Qts, but not Xmax. The additional excursion represented by the 12mm Xmax affects the maximum sound level, as Ian mentioned, rather than the frequency of the extension.

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 06/15/1302:39 AM

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 06/15/1310:09 AM

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 06/15/1310:58 AM

Originally Posted By: JohnK

Fred, note that the equations for bass extension make use of Fs and Qts, but not Xmax. The additional excursion represented by the 12mm Xmax affects the maximum sound level, as Ian mentioned, rather than the frequency of the extension.

John. I actually entered the t/s parameters into winisd and did some modelling. I know a model does not tell the whole story, but this new driver appears to be capable of more extension than it gets in the M100.

I see Ian's point about the value of that extra extension in the M80/M100, but I wonder what it might do in a bookshelf?

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 06/15/1306:21 PM

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 06/15/1309:49 PM

Fred, the only reason that I replied to that post was the comment that the "extra throw" would allow it to "reach lower". Yesterday I had run some of Keele's equations by hand(with the help of my pocket calculator). The results I got were in close agreement with your numbers and I didn't see a good reason to discuss them further. Briefly, using Vas and Qts I got an "ideal" enclosure volume of 1.55 cu ft., using Fs and Qts a -3dB frequency of 25.9Hz and again using Fs and Qts a 31.6Hz enclosure tune.

So, the point, as I mentioned above, is simply that the Xmax isn't a controlling factor in the frequency of the extension, but rather, along with other factors(primarily the effective diameter of the woofer cone)affects maximum volume capability.

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 06/16/1309:23 PM

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 06/17/1303:51 PM

We have been thinking about a good pre-order offer for the LFR1100 with the “Performance Pack” which includes the six new high powered 6.5” drivers, eight custom metal feet, die cast baskets on all fourteen drivers, and bi-wiring. This upgrade in will cost $680 and will be available for shipping by the end of July. We are offering this upgrade at no extra charge for purchases made between now and the end of June. http://www.axiomaudio.com/omnidirectional-speaker

For existing LFR1100 owners we have a special offer to make this upgrade. Contact us via phone or e-mail for the details.

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 06/17/1304:49 PM

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 06/17/1306:15 PM

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 06/17/1306:23 PM

We have been thinking about what to do on the upgrade from M80 front. If you give us a call of drop an e-mail with the age and condition of your M80s we will work something out for you to go to the LFR1100s or M100s.

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 06/18/1301:04 AM

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 06/18/1309:47 AM

OK good, thanks Ian. You had me scared there when you mentioned the bi-amping. Alex, you always beat me to the punch, its hard going without my system for a couple of weeks.I will order these soon tho.

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 06/18/1311:05 AM

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 06/18/1312:05 PM

Hi Troyd

It really isn't possible to just put these new LFR woofers in an M80. They are designed for a tri-woofer system so we would have to make different driver for use with the M80s. Even if we did this it would also involve a crossover change. We can upgrade the LFR1100s because it is already a tri-woofer system and we can make the changes required in the DSP.

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 06/18/1312:34 PM

Thanks Ian,

that's hat I thought that the crossover would atleast need changing.

ok so, by reading the graphs of the M100 and M80 the M100's are pretty well flat from 70 - 500, whereas the M80 have a +5db bump at 130hz ish. Also, this is where the main dialogue is at in and around the 100 - 200hz range. So, performance wise I should notice a tad better performance here. The other thing I notice, is the dip at 50hz on the m80's however, the fall off from 50hz is more smooth with the M100's. I will not notice any more punchier bottom end with the M100's than the M80' s ?

am I reading this right ?

Also, depending on the cost to upgrade from M80 two months old to the M100 is probably not worth it, right ?

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 06/18/1303:15 PM

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 06/18/1307:24 PM

Here are some more details about the new M100:

The M100 stands 47.5” tall, which is the same as the LFR1100. It also incorporates three grilles like the LFR1100 which join together in an angled array making for separate right and left speakers. The M100 will have as stock features: six of the new high powered 6.5” woofers, adjustable metal feet (your choice of three finishes), die-cast baskets on all 10 of the 6.5” and 5.25” woofers, and bi-wiring. Options will be custom finishes, custom grilles (you can even mix and match the colours for the three separate grilles), adjustable spikes, and outriggers. The new M100 will cost $2,690 per pair. We will be offering a pre-order special of $1,990 per pair from now until the end of June. Shipping will begin at the end of July in chronological order.

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 06/18/1310:06 PM

Originally Posted By: JohnK

Alex, you mention the "new woofers", but does Ian's description seem to indicate that all fourteen drivers(not including the tweeters, of course)are to be replaced?

John, there was a subtil delineation between different options in Ian's post. If you re-read his post you will see what i am referring to.. John, please keep in mind, i don't want to speak out of turn here; but do want to answer your question.

John, also... In my specific instance, you may remember, i got cast baskets on my LFR's. So, as far as upgrading to cast baskets on the 5 1/4's for me, it would be a moot point...

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 06/19/1311:46 PM

I'd still like to see a (new) M40. Half the M80, one of each of the drivers in a smaller cabinet. Hopefully it'd have better bass response than the M2/22, and be more linear than the M30.

Ian commented on this request before but I don't recall what his reason was that he did not want to go ahead. As I said before I built my own using axiom drivers and use them for Vinyl playback. They sound fantastic to me. Maybe someday it will be a reality.

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 06/24/1312:14 PM

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 06/24/1312:18 PM

I have to think that Andrew and Ian can figure out how to arrange the extra woofer for optimal sq. Perhaps one in the middle? Or on the back? Either way the cabinet would need to be bigger than a VP180...

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 06/28/1310:07 PM

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 06/30/1310:11 AM

Hi Johnny Be Good,

As it turned out because the weight is low in the M100s we felt it was fine to offer the outriggers as an option. The LFR1100s have more weight up top with the rear components. That said I am not using the outriggers on my own LFR1100s as I prefer the look without them and they are certainly stable enough.

The comment about "where applicable" is to cover the fact that there is no midrange driver in the M50 when we are talking about our line of tower speakers.

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 06/30/1310:17 AM

Originally Posted By: Ian

Hi Johnny Be Good,

As it turned out because the weight is low in the M100s we felt it was fine to offer the outriggers as an option. The LFR1100s have more weight up top with the rear components. That said I am not using the outriggers on my own LFR1100s as I prefer the look without them and they are certainly stable enough.

The comment about "where applicable" is to cover the fact that there is no midrange driver in the M50 when we are talking about our line of tower speakers.

Nice Ian, I personally didn't care for the look of the outriggers, as long as its stable.. for sure those lfr's are more top heavy

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 07/04/1306:25 PM

Hi cohesion,

Andrew and I have been chatting about if there is need for a centre channel model to specifically match the M100 and LFR1100. And we are just not sure; everyones feedback on this would be appreciated. The upside would obviously be the higher achievable max SPL in the lower frequencies but this would become marginal using an 80Hz crossover to your sub. The downside would be that there are only two of the heavy duty drivers which would mean it would be less efficient than the towers it is being mated with (the VP180 has the efficiency to keep up due to the lower mass of the woofers). Putting three woofers in the centre channel would be best but the layout might prove challenging.

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 07/04/1306:56 PM

Ian, I'm not sure how feasible it is, and it would limit the number of potential customers, but I was thinking a while back that a T-configuration might be a fun experiment. The top of the T would look like a normal horizontal center, but then below it in the center would be more speaker, which would serve as the stand as well. Perhaps this way you could have the tweeters and woofers in a line down the center, with the midranges being the flankers. This wouldn't fit in/on any cabinets, of course, but for people like me who plan to have just the screen on the wall with open space for the speakers to breathe in might be interested in a speaker like this, if it can be made attractive. Why not just an identical center channel? The height of the LFR1100s coupled with my low ceiling would interfere with my screen size plans. How squat could you make a speaker like this? Also, when you talk about mating it with the M100/LFR1100, I imagine you're still talking about forward-firing drivers only. Just curious, but have you done any prototypes of a center channel with rear-firing drivers as well?

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 07/04/1308:51 PM

Originally Posted By: Ian

Hi cohesion,

Andrew and I have been chatting about if there is need for a centre channel model to specifically match the M100 and LFR1100. And we are just not sure; everyones feedback on this would be appreciated. The upside would obviously be the higher achievable max SPL in the lower frequencies but this would become marginal using an 80Hz crossover to your sub. The downside would be that there are only two of the heavy duty drivers which would mean it would be less efficient than the towers it is being mated with (the VP180 has the efficiency to keep up due to the lower mass of the woofers). Putting three woofers in the centre channel would be best but the layout might prove challenging.

Ian, it looks like you were reading my mind as I had speculated about this very topic in the center channel reference thread on June 30. You will remember that for years, although on a considerably smaller scale, Mirage had center channel models with a rear firing speaker designed to expand the sound stage, however, they were fairly expensive, especially for their size.I am not sure but I believe "DefTech" had a couple of these designs as well. As you know, Mirage later replaced these with their "omnipolar" designs and I owned one for a brief period and although I wasn't particularly thrilled with the over all sound, it did have probably the best "off-axis" performance, by far, that I had ever heard in a center channel speaker.

I wondered myself, in order to match these new "giant size" mains, how one would design it and how big would it have to be in order to compete performance wise with the M100/LFR1100? An interesting design challenge, I am sure, however, I would suspect, if you were able to be successful in coming up with such a model in a type of "bi-polar" center channel, it would be a winner and because of the expanded soundstage, and the more I think of it, it could probably be an easier and more flexible match with any of the other models as well.

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 07/04/1310:26 PM

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 07/04/1310:31 PM

Originally Posted By: JohnK

Charles, that's an imaginative concept, but it's the mid-range(not woofers)and tweeter that are most important to have vertically oriented.

Yes, but there's the issue of getting three woofers into the layout, which I thought would be more easily done in the vertical portion of the T. Maybe you could have one woofer at each end of the T, with the tweeters and midranges still down the center.

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 07/05/1310:59 AM

Originally Posted By: casey01

Ian, it looks like you were reading my mind as I had speculated about this very topic in the center channel reference thread on June 30. You will remember that for years, although on a considerably smaller scale, Mirage had center channel models with a rear firing speaker designed to expand the sound stage, however, they were fairly expensive, especially for their size.I am not sure but I believe "DefTech" had a couple of these designs as well. As you know, Mirage later replaced these with their "omnipolar" designs and I owned one for a brief period and although I wasn't particularly thrilled with the over all sound, it did have probably the best "off-axis" performance, by far, that I had ever heard in a center channel speaker.

I wondered myself, in order to match these new "giant size" mains, how one would design it and how big would it have to be in order to compete performance wise with the M100/LFR1100? An interesting design challenge, I am sure, however, I would suspect, if you were able to be successful in coming up with such a model in a type of "bi-polar" center channel, it would be a winner and because of the expanded soundstage, and the more I think of it, it could probably be an easier and more flexible match with any of the other models as well.

Ah ha! I knew that it wouldn't be long until there was talk about an "LFR" centre channel. And I have a long history of working with "unconventional" centre channel designs. My first design for Mirage was actually their first bi-polar centre, the OM-C2. Great product but one which was compromised in most applications. The main thing to keep in mind is that an omni-directional speaker system like the LFR needs space around it and room for the rear wave information to radiate out into the room. For all of the LFR owners, have a look at where you have your speakers placed and ask yourself if you could place a centre channel in the same manner. I'd bet that most of you will say "No, I need to place it on or in a cabinet of some sort". This was the typical customer complaint with the Mirage bipolar and Omnipolar centres; they would get them home, shove them on a shelf, and then call us saying that it didn't sound right, etc. So, IF you have the setup that can allow it, an omni-directional centre has merit. And, yes, if there is enough interest we can happily consider it!

On the topic of the new woofers, I had worked on the original design with the intent of this woofer being of reasonably high impedance (9ohms Rdc) to work in a 3-woofer system like the LFR (and now M100). It was also designed to perform best as a woofer only, with minimal consideration given to how it would behave if crossed over directly to a tweeter. So for now there are no plans for a souped-up M3 or to offer the woofers for other models in the Axiom line-up. However, there seems to be enough interest in an upgrade for the M80 that I will investigate the possibility of a version of this new woofer for that system.

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 07/05/1311:18 AM

Thanks Ian and Andrew!

I don't use an 80 Hz crossover - my LFR's and VP180 are running full range.

In my current setup I probably wouldn't have enough space behind the centre to allow for good performance of an LFR style speaker. But I would certainly be able to accomodate an upgraded VP with 2 or preferably 3 of the new woofers. (I expect I'd order one about as soon as you guys figure out how to make it - if not sooner!) I also eventually will build a new HT room and would plan to fit an LFR centre if at all possible.

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 07/05/1311:45 AM

Hi Andrew:

"Ohh, to long for the days of the big old RPCRTs where you had room to put centre channel speakers on top of the television"! Yep, as you well stated, that was the problem with the bipolar Mirage centres where they needed the space, however, another I think was that they were relatively small and for their size, quite expensive.

I, certainly, would be one who would definitely be interested in such a design, especially in a large centre because with the way dialog is locked on quite well with recent movie soundtracks, if you could produce that somewhat more "airy", "open" feel to the sound coming out of the centre channel, it would still be coming from the correct place, however, it would probably sound more natural.

Of course, if one wanted to carry this all one step further, you could do what DefTech recently did and build a powered centre channel with small subwoofers.

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 07/05/1311:46 AM

Originally Posted By: Andrew

Originally Posted By: casey01

Ian, it looks like you were reading my mind as I had speculated about this very topic in the center channel reference thread on June 30. You will remember that for years, although on a considerably smaller scale, Mirage had center channel models with a rear firing speaker designed to expand the sound stage, however, they were fairly expensive, especially for their size.I am not sure but I believe "DefTech" had a couple of these designs as well. As you know, Mirage later replaced these with their "omnipolar" designs and I owned one for a brief period and although I wasn't particularly thrilled with the over all sound, it did have probably the best "off-axis" performance, by far, that I had ever heard in a center channel speaker.

I wondered myself, in order to match these new "giant size" mains, how one would design it and how big would it have to be in order to compete performance wise with the M100/LFR1100? An interesting design challenge, I am sure, however, I would suspect, if you were able to be successful in coming up with such a model in a type of "bi-polar" center channel, it would be a winner and because of the expanded soundstage, and the more I think of it, it could probably be an easier and more flexible match with any of the other models as well.

Ah ha! I knew that it wouldn't be long until there was talk about an "LFR" centre channel. And I have a long history of working with "unconventional" centre channel designs. My first design for Mirage was actually their first bi-polar centre, the OM-C2. Great product but one which was compromised in most applications. The main thing to keep in mind is that an omni-directional speaker system like the LFR needs space around it and room for the rear wave information to radiate out into the room. For all of the LFR owners, have a look at where you have your speakers placed and ask yourself if you could place a centre channel in the same manner. I'd bet that most of you will say "No, I need to place it on or in a cabinet of some sort". This was the typical customer complaint with the Mirage bipolar and Omnipolar centres; they would get them home, shove them on a shelf, and then call us saying that it didn't sound right, etc. So, IF you have the setup that can allow it, an omni-directional centre has merit. And, yes, if there is enough interest we can happily consider it!

On the topic of the new woofers, I had worked on the original design with the intent of this woofer being of reasonably high impedance (9ohms Rdc) to work in a 3-woofer system like the LFR (and now M100). It was also designed to perform best as a woofer only, with minimal consideration given to how it would behave if crossed over directly to a tweeter. So for now there are no plans for a souped-up M3 or to offer the woofers for other models in the Axiom line-up. However, there seems to be enough interest in an upgrade for the M80 that I will investigate the possibility of a version of this new woofer for that system.

After re-reading this I guess I should expand on my previous post.

In my current setup my VP180 is mounted on a custom shelf above my screen. There is plenty of space above and to the sides of the speaker but not much behind. This is due to the limited choices of shelves and brackets available in my local big box hardware store. If an LFR style centre could be designed with some kind of mounting system that would position it properly I may well be able to fit it in and would be VERY interested in doing so. I would also think that some kind of combination stand/tv mount might work for those who have their centre below their screens. So Andrew please do think about how the centre might be fit into real-world systems and give us some ideas!

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 07/05/1302:04 PM

I think positioning the LFR center to sit on the floor below the screen would offer the most stable design point for the DSP. Lots of people have either projection screens or wall-mounted plasma/LCD displays that could probably accommodate such placement. But it would need to be relatively short.

Making it a horizontal speaker seems like a non-starter since the DSP wouldn't know ANY of the boundary dimensions.

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 07/05/1302:31 PM

And just think; when I bought my M80s there were so many posts about how no one really needs that large of a speaker and the complications on positioning. Makes me wonder why things have changed so much around here.

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 07/05/1309:01 PM

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 07/05/1309:12 PM

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 07/06/1304:21 AM

Originally Posted By: tomtuttle

I think positioning the LFR center to sit on the floor below the screen would offer the most stable design point for the DSP. Lots of people have either projection screens or wall-mounted plasma/LCD displays that could probably accommodate such placement. But it would need to be relatively short.

Making it a horizontal speaker seems like a non-starter since the DSP wouldn't know ANY of the boundary dimensions.

Getting the full complement of drivers in a shorter LFR-style center may not be worth it. If it was made into the T-style speaker I was thinking of (one woofer on either side to form the T, one at the bottom), and if all of the porting could be on the back, then it could potentially be around 30 inches in height. Even with the single front port, at a few inches taller, I could probably get the screen size I'm looking for. Of course, having the speaker in a T could add significantly to the production costs, as well as being less attractive. Once you eliminate some of the drivers, though, a shorter and entirely vertical center becomes a possibility. I could go for either of those options.

I'm enjoying the VP180, but I would love to try an omnidirectional center, and if I could go back to vertical (or mostly vertical, in the case of the T), I'd go back. The M22 worked fine, but I do appreciate the greater range of the VP180. Man, I can't wait until the basement is done enough for me to move my system down there, where my speakers will have the breathing room they've been wanting.

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 07/06/1304:24 AM

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 07/06/1305:35 AM

Originally Posted By: Andrew

For all of the LFR owners, have a look at where you have your speakers placed and ask yourself if you could place a centre channel in the same manner. I'd bet that most of you will say "No, I need to place it on or in a cabinet of some sort". This was the typical customer complaint with the Mirage bipolar and Omnipolar centres; they would get them home, shove them on a shelf, and then call us saying that it didn't sound right, etc. So, IF you have the setup that can allow it, an omni-directional centre has merit. And, yes, if there is enough interest we can happily consider it!

Just to respond to Andrew directly, yes, I'm interested in an omnidirectional center speaker, and yes, I will have open space to properly utilize it. Shorter is better. Around 30 tall inches would be perfect for my screen size plans. As you add inches beyond that, my dream of a projection screen starts to suffer. Most people will have a higher ceiling than me, but I still think most people won't want a vertical center much taller than that, simply because I'm thinking of a screen with the bottom scraping the top edge of the center channel and going all of the way up to the ceiling. At 16:9, that'll give me a 90" diagonal image with a few vertical inches left to play with. A lot of people who get projectors probably want an even bigger image, which they can get with their higher ceilings.

In any case, that's a little detail on what my specific implementation would consist of.

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 07/06/1311:28 AM

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 07/06/1311:48 AM

Originally Posted By: tomtuttle

What if you made it an inverted T and put the woofers in a separate horizontal cabinet along the bottom?

I would think that having some kind of separate stackable or interlocking cabinets might indeed be a good option. Especially if each cabinet could be ordered in horizontal or vertical configuration. I also like the earlier suggestion of a short but wide 'fatboy' LFR. I guess that would likely require the drivers to be arranged 2 by 2 beside each other with extra space or ports by the third woofer. I suppose a modification to this for a horizontal arrangement would be to have a row of woofers above or below a row of the other drivers.

Now we just need Ian and Andrew to figure out if any of these options is feasible to build and produces good sound!

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 07/06/1311:52 AM

Originally Posted By: CV

Originally Posted By: Andrew

For all of the LFR owners, have a look at where you have your speakers placed and ask yourself if you could place a centre channel in the same manner. I'd bet that most of you will say "No, I need to place it on or in a cabinet of some sort". This was the typical customer complaint with the Mirage bipolar and Omnipolar centres; they would get them home, shove them on a shelf, and then call us saying that it didn't sound right, etc. So, IF you have the setup that can allow it, an omni-directional centre has merit. And, yes, if there is enough interest we can happily consider it!

Just to respond to Andrew directly, yes, I'm interested in an omnidirectional center speaker, and yes, I will have open space to properly utilize it. Shorter is better. Around 30 tall inches would be perfect for my screen size plans. As you add inches beyond that, my dream of a projection screen starts to suffer. Most people will have a higher ceiling than me, but I still think most people won't want a vertical center much taller than that, simply because I'm thinking of a screen with the bottom scraping the top edge of the center channel and going all of the way up to the ceiling. At 16:9, that'll give me a 90" diagonal image with a few vertical inches left to play with. A lot of people who get projectors probably want an even bigger image, which they can get with their higher ceilings.

In any case, that's a little detail on what my specific implementation would consist of.

Just out of curiosity, what are the advantages of a vertical centre? Would you want the rear drivers aimed left or right or up or down?

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 07/06/1302:34 PM

Originally Posted By: tomtuttle

What if you made it an inverted T and put the woofers in a separate horizontal cabinet along the bottom?

Good call. The lesser width where the tweeters and rear-firing drivers would be would probably improve the sound appreciably. The separate cabinet would most likely reduce production costs/complexity, but it would require some external wiring, which is fine with me.

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 07/06/1302:46 PM

Just out of curiosity, what are the advantages of a vertical centre? Would you want the rear drivers aimed left or right or up or down?

I'm just thinking of the improved horizontal dispersion.

Why would the rear drivers be aimed anywhere other than straight back? They're slightly angled out on the LFR1100s because of the likely configuration where there's a cabinet or something else in between the mains, but an omnidirectional center would assume open space between the mains.

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 07/06/1310:08 PM

Originally Posted By: Andrew

So, IF you have the setup that can allow it, an omni-directional centre has merit. And, yes, if there is enough interest we can happily consider it!

My current configuration is using the VP-180 as a shelf for the plasma. My plasma is sitting directly on top of the 180. So, if there was to be a horizontal speaker, i would be able to take advantage of a new center.. However, the new center was a vertical center channel, it would pretty much be a no go for me.

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 07/08/1307:48 PM

Just out of curiosity, what are the advantages of a vertical centre? Would you want the rear drivers aimed left or right or up or down?

I'm just thinking of the improved horizontal dispersion.

Why would the rear drivers be aimed anywhere other than straight back? They're slightly angled out on the LFR1100s because of the likely configuration where there's a cabinet or something else in between the mains, but an omnidirectional center would assume open space between the mains.

Ah, better horizontal dispersion in a vertical model. That makes sense! But I think only if the drivers are arranged in a line, no? So that requires a taller cabinet which would move some drivers further from the screen?

I assumed that the back of the LFR cabinets was angled in part to help direct the sound around the cabinets themselves. If so, I'd think it would be more important to have the rear of an omni-directional centre speaker angled also, as it would be more likely to be oriented parallel to the rear wall. (Not to mention that it is likely that a screen located above or below would partially obscure the reflected sound. Thus in my case with a screen below my centre channel, I assume angled up or left and/or right would be good options but down would be bad.) Then again, that WAS just a guess on my part. Perhaps Andrew can help explain what kind of space needs to be available around an omni-directional centre.

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 07/18/1307:08 AM

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 07/29/1311:34 PM

Just bumping this thread because I want to hear more about whether people would be interested in some kind of Center speaker incorporating the new woofers - call it a "VP200" or whatever. There was some interesting discussion but then it tapered off. Was this because you all thought that such a speaker would be too big and/or too expensive?

On a related note does anyone have any idea how many such speakers Axiom would need to sell to make producing it feasible?

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 08/02/1303:39 PM

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 08/02/1304:21 PM

Below are some pictures of the first production of M100s in the wood shop. I will post some pictures of the final stage of the woofer production on Tuesday (Monday is a holiday here) and then it will be final assembly, testing, and shipping.

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 08/02/1306:10 PM

I finally sent a call in again, where I will be home hopefully to get my cast woofers and midrange drivers for the LFRs. I just don't like the idea of sending the DSP box back, but I am sure I won't regret it.

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 08/07/1304:09 PM

We are very close now. Below is a picture from this morning of the woofers starting to get the cones installed. The dust caps will be able to be installed this evening and then the first of the finished M100s will be put together tomorrow. I will post some pictures from the assembly line as this happens.

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 08/08/1301:59 PM

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 08/08/1303:06 PM

Cannot wait to lay my hands on them. If that is the front end of the line then, it looks as though you will start shipping next week. I think that I speak for everyone in the queue when I say that I'm willing to wait so that you guys can ensure that the QC is done just right.

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 08/30/1306:48 PM

Hi Shawn,

The real holdup is the code writing but I am on it this weekend and then we will run some listen testing on Tuesday. It is a special code because the crossover is different from the current one which is based on the M100 analogue crossover. It will be on its way back to you soon!

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 08/31/1309:41 AM

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 09/10/1311:24 AM

So for a fleeting moment today, after finally getting around to reading an email offer from Axiom to upgrade, I considered trading a pair of M80's I have for a set of these new 100's. I guess I didn't realize the price delta between the two sets until just now. I never really paid attention I suppose.....

M80's - $1500 a pairM100's - $2690 a pairNet - $1190

That's roughly an 80% increase in price between the two.

To make sure I'm not missing something, (as I admit that I have not really followed this thread very close) what does the M100 have that's up an above what the M80 has?? It obviously has an additional driver, and the woofer drivers are this new model. Is there anything else, other than some additional MDF??

I gotta be frank, unless I'm missing something here, there's not much the M100 has going on that would persuade me to pick it over the M80 for an 80% increase in price.

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 09/10/1302:50 PM

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 09/10/1303:45 PM

Hi Michael,

There are quite a few of the options for the M80 that are standard on the M100; dual input, die cast baskets, and metal feet. But the biggest difference is that it is six of the woofer on the right below instead of four on the one on the left.

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 09/10/1310:10 PM

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 09/11/1308:46 AM

The cabinet is larger, so there is that extra cost, and of course this means the freight is more also. On top of that the M100 crosses into the zone of an oversized package so there is a surcharge. The other side of the equation is as our input costs rise over time there is always a lag in that showing up in existing models, making the M80 currently under-priced.

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 09/11/1310:04 AM

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 09/11/1310:25 AM

Thanks for the explanation Ian. It's been a few years since I actually looked into speaker prices. I have way too many speakers already, so I just haven't paid much attention to the market. I just did a quick search on the net, and things have most certainly changed. Looks like the Paradigm Studio 100's are now going for about $3500 a pair. Last time I looked at them, they were about $2000 a pair. Which is also when I bought my M80's at $1200 a pair.

If I were looking for a set of tower speakers, the M100's would probably beckon to me. I'd want real wood and a piano finish. That puts them at roughly $3800, which is a tad more than Studio 100's, but with free shipping and the M100's have more drivers. So I reckon, comparatively speaking, the M100's are a better bargain.

It would be interesting to sit in on a blind listening evaluation of the M80 and M100, as I find it difficult to imagine a speaker sounding a whole lot better than my "old" M80's. The LFR's, well they are a completely different animal with drivers firing in different directions, so I actually expect them to sound different. Maybe not better, but definitely different.

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 09/11/1302:49 PM

Having been involved in the Blind Listen Testing of all these models I can say for sure the biggest upgrade in the sound quality comes with the wholesale changes to all the models (the family of curves http://www.axiomaudio.com/blog/the-family-of-curves/ ). So M100s would definitely sound better than your M80s, but M80s made today will sound better than your current ones also. The current M100 does win the Blind Listen Test against the current M80s but the delta, outside the bass region where the difference is substantial, is nowhere near as large as between an older M80 and a current M100.

The LFR1100 is an interesting animal. I think the best way to describe it would be a like a discovery of some new pleasure; once you experience the LFR1100s there is no going back. And interestingly the difference from an M100 to an LFR1100 is at first seemingly small, the tonal balance is identical so there is no difference that way, it is the big 3D soundstage that exists everywhere in the room that gets to you and then there is no going back.

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 09/13/1305:25 PM

Originally Posted By: michael_d

Looks like the Paradigm Studio 100's are now going for about $3500 a pair. Last time I looked at them, they were about $2000 a pair.

That sounds like it's probably the "list" price or close to it. I find many of the speakers I looked at 3-4 yrs back, like the Paradigm Studios(100s), Monitor Audio RS line and Energy's were marked down 25 to 50% when new models were on their way late in the year esp if there were changes warranting a new designation... Mk 4 vs Mk 5 etc.

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 09/23/1309:50 AM

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 09/23/1305:31 PM

I emailed Brent last week and he replied with what SBrown said. He said Ian is really "anal" about the coding for the dsp with the new woofers. He said they could go ahead and ship them if I wanted, but I replied that I preferred to wait until Ian was satisfied with the coding.

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 10/03/1311:59 AM

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 11/02/1307:16 PM

I sent my DSP away today to be updated. I can't wait to get the new woofers.

I'm wondering what my next Axiom purchases will be. I'll probably get a pair of M3s or M22s for the bathroom, and I'd like to get one more ADA amplifier to complete my amplification wants at some point.

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 11/03/1309:50 AM

Shawn, I called brent a ciuple weeks back and bugged him a bit. Long syory short my DSP is getting the LFR+180 reprogram all at one shot.. I think at the time I saw a post of Ian's eluding to center channel upgrades.... anyhow I think it will be a bit before I get my DSP/ woofers... but, im ok with that.

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 11/27/1301:24 AM

When I first read this thread I missed the statement from Ian that the upgraded woofer for the M100 are different than the same size woofer for the high powered M80.I also missed that Ian had referred to the M80's crossovers as being analogue. Have they be changed/are they now digital?Just fishing for info...

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 11/27/1306:14 AM

I tend to divide crossovers into three categories: analogue, active, and digital.

An analogue crossover, or high level crossover, resides in the speaker and divides the signal after amplification thereby only requiring one channel of amplification per speaker.

An active crossover uses analogue parts but divides the signal at line level before the amplifiers and therefore requires a designated amp channel for each section of the speaker (bass, mid, and treble for a 3-way)

A digital crossover divides the signal at line level also but does so using a Digital Signal Processor in the digital domain. This type of crossover also requires and amp channel for each section.

I guess then there is a fourth category which is an analogue/digital hybrid where the DSP is used to control the amplitude response of each amp channel in conjunction with an analogue crossover in the speaker. This is how the LFR series works.

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 11/27/1310:39 AM

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 11/30/1309:21 AM

Just a thought, how would a mid speaker (5.25) fair out on the top of an lfr1100 as per the qs8's perhaps even paired with a tweeter. that would be a real omnidirectional speaker, sort of a qs8 on steroids!! maybe a LFRT1250 ?

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 12/01/1301:01 PM

Since the Mirage OMD's have been mentioned...Andrew Welker who now works with Ian at Axiom was the designer behind those beautiful Mirages. There is likely patents that Mirage has on that particular omni-directional design, so, even though Andrew was instrumental in it's concept...

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 12/01/1302:13 PM

Originally Posted By: Adrian

Since the Mirage OMD's have been mentioned...Andrew Welker who now works with Ian at Axiom was the designer behind those beautiful Mirages. There is likely patents that Mirage has on that particular omni-directional design, so, even though Andrew was instrumental in it's concept...

Back when these "Omnidirectional" speakers were first introduced I was quite intrigued and ended up purchasing the center channel speaker that was part of the model group that went with the floor standers shown in the ad. It had two 5 and a half inch woofers with the same tweeter positioned over the small mid-range and even though it was limited by its relatively small size thus producing the usual "boxy" mid-range sound, it had, by far, the most amazing off-axis response I have ever heard in a center channel.

You could literally stand 90% off-axis, facing the side of the speaker, and the response was almost the same as sitting directly in front of it in the normal sweet spot!

Regardless of size, off-axis response is always variable to some degree in any "front-firing" center channel so I would be interested to get a response from Andrew on this and could a similar design be configured in the Axiom models that could produce a similar result as the OMD design?

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 12/16/1308:18 AM

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 12/21/1301:19 AM

My woofers and DSP shipped on Wednesday, so I'm excited. It's run into a "clearance delay," which apparently means Axiom needs to provide more information before they can continue their journey, so here's hoping it gets sorted without issue.

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 12/21/1304:19 PM

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 12/25/1305:29 AM

I got my woofer upgrade and swapped them all out, so I spent a fair amount of time listening to stuff. It's hard to know how much the sound has changed, but I will say it's always fun to do these upgrades and fall in love with my speakers all over again with new critical listening sessions. I need my basement to be done so I can start doing some real playing with placement, and then maybe I'll finally add myself to the audition list. I know I'm looking forward to having movie parties again.

I can't wait to see what Axiom has up their sleeves in the coming year. I'm impressed with the strides Ian and Andrew and team have made in 2013.

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 01/03/1401:02 AM

I thought I would be sending the old drivers back to be recycled, but Brent has informed me that I don't need to. Does anyone have a use for them in a project? One of them was being a total bear to take out, so I accidentally pressed in the dust cap and broke off one of the wires, so that would need to be soldered back on. The rest are okay.

M100 v4 NEW purchase. - 05/02/1401:12 AM

I am thinking of moving UP from a pair of M80v3s to a pair of M100 v4.

Issues:a. The sound of M100 is not a huge jump UP from M80. A little disappointing given that it is costing me near $1700 to upgradeb. THe M100 sounds muddled at until 10'. Play it LOUD and go to the next room, it sounds awesome. This is very strange

CONCLUSIONS: The M100v4 is a tiny hop/step/jump UP from a M80 v3. This is just day #2, so I need to wait and see (NO - I do not believe in break-in). I have seen idiots suggest break-ins for Brystons. Call the factory - the will tell you what to use (example: I blew a fuse in the input soft-start circuits. Bryston recommended $0.25/each fast acting fuses. There exist IDIOTS who pay $75 for a gold/silver fuse - stupid, stupid, stupid.

Re: M100 v4 NEW purchase. - 05/02/1401:26 AM

Re: M100 v4 NEW purchase. - 05/02/1411:49 AM

Originally Posted By: BapchaMan

I am thinking of moving UP from a pair of M80v3s to a pair of M100 v4.

Issues:a. The sound of M100 is not a huge jump UP from M80. A little disappointing given that it is costing me near $1700 to upgradeb. THe M100 sounds muddled at until 10'. Play it LOUD and go to the next room, it sounds awesome. This is very strange

CONCLUSIONS: The M100v4 is a tiny hop/step/jump UP from a M80 v3. This is just day #2, so I need to wait and see (NO - I do not believe in break-in). I have seen idiots suggest break-ins for Brystons. Call the factory - the will tell you what to use (example: I blew a fuse in the input soft-start circuits. Bryston recommended $0.25/each fast acting fuses. There exist IDIOTS who pay $75 for a gold/silver fuse - stupid, stupid, stupid.

All opinions are mine.

Sincerely,BapchaMan - the semiconductor genius

What your experiencing is really nothing new and one thing I learned over the years is once you get in to speakers of the caliber and size of the M80, anything beyond that is going to be, at best, a marginal improvement. I would suspect just from the physical size of the cabinet alone along with the extra driver there would be the potential for some extra bass with the M100 but beyond that, the differences between the M80, which is already a large speaker and the M100 would be negligible. it has also been pointed out that the M100 is somewhat more finnicky in placement and that is why I really couldn't consider them(too many walls). Some might think differently in what they hear.

The difference in price between the M80 and M100 is really not surprising. Back awhile ago I looked at and listened to and compared "Paradigm's" Studio and Signature series. In the comparable models they look virtually identical, however, the Signature brand is in some cases more than double the price of the Studio series. I have heard them both, whatever differences there were, I couldn't here them and they certainly weren't worth the difference in price.

It is an old story in audio. Sometimes when you think you "want"(not need) something better, all it proves is what you already had was as good as it gets.

Thanks much for your help guys. Some more info. The rooms in my place (fortunately) are fairly large. I now have an A/B setup so I can check the two. Yes, I did equalize the volumes to a certain extent. All of the vortexes are open.

More observations:a. The M80s are more efficient than the M100's (fewer drivers should help, the sensitivity now depends on the crossover)b. The tweeters on the M100 are supposedly better, but the attack, decay and general quality of treble (including cymbals, wire brushes) seem superior on the M80-v3c. Yes, the bottom-line bass on the M100 is indeed superiord. I placed the speakers at least 36" from the back wall, 2' from the side walls, and toed them in a little (about the same on both sides - don't know the angle, but maybe 5 degrees?

Observations:1. Like yesterday, if I say in the same room as the music system, the M80s are far superior - sound quality, attack, decay and IMAGING. The m100s have seriously muddled imaging2. Go to the next room, and put a half wall between the speakers and me, and this is NOT intuitive - the IMAGING of the M100s gets really sharp. The M80's - get muddled and are not sharp!!!!3. I listen to most of my music walking around, but when I want to listen critically, I do not want to go to the next room over.4. M100's imaging is AWESOME with fewer instruments. What I said above regarding imaging applies to a large orchestras.

Re: M100 v4 NEW purchase. - 05/03/1405:17 AM

Your M80v3s are a little over one year old so they have the v4 crossovers. This means you are in the same family of products from a family of curves perspective (M80, M80HP, and M100) all v4. But given your large space and powerful amplifier you are going to be able to fully utilize the advantages of the M100 with its much more powerful low frequency max SPL.

Due to the higher mass of the individual bass drivers the M100 will be slightly less efficient than the M80 regular version. This will affect the A/B results outside of the expected differences in the bass region as you are not quite at equal level. There is also the position to take into account. I would suggest disconnecting the wires from all the speakers and flipping their positions so the M80s are where the M100s are now and vice versa. Hook the wires back up so what is now A becomes B. You will still have that slight efficiency difference with the M80s playing slightly louder than the M100s but you can try to adjust for that with a small movement of the volume knob.

At the end of the day though you may be better to just put the M100s in the position that they sound the best and spend a few weeks just listening to them in your normal way; then draw your conclusion at the end. Without an exact level match and a blind screen A/B testing is a tough thing to garner results from.

The overall performance should be quite similar in most respects between the M80 and the M100 but with a big gain in the low frequency area with the M100s, especially at higher volume.

Re: M100 v4 NEW purchase. - 05/03/1401:31 PM

Re: M100 v4 NEW purchase. - 08/19/1402:01 PM

I want to thank (or blame) BapchaMan for convincing me to go with the m100's instead of the m80v4 HP.

The kind of reviews that sell me are those that:1) use separate components in a 2 channel system2) give direct comparisons to known speakers. I have read for example "The m80 v4 handily outperform my B&W x.xx model" and "The M-80 v4 can go toe to toe with $7,000 Vienna acoustics"

I am prepping to order some new m-100's and need to wipe the saliva off my solar powered keyboard.

Re: M100 v4 NEW purchase. - 10/11/1412:42 PM

Haha - did not revisit the forums until today. Hope you like the M100's Scottinwa. I like the M100's more now (I closed the two top ports at the back on both the left and right speakers). This substantially improves imaging - at the expense of bass response - (there is still enough low end).

I added outriggers after the fact (good for stability of these tall slim speakers)

Bottom-line: 1. I have now forgotten what the M80's sounded like2. M100's are very nice. They do require a lot of amp oomph it seems like3. While I did not believe in break-in, I think my ears were broken-in by the speakers4. For some reason, it still sounds better in "the next room over" than the listening couch

Re: M100 v4 NEW purchase. - 10/15/1403:39 PM

To answer your question, "I have now forgotten what the M80's sounded like", you probably just have to sit down in front of your M100's to get your answer. Since you've blocked a bunch of ports in your M100's then you probably have roughly the equivalent of unblocked M80 HP's or slightly less. Tweeter and mid-range driver layout are identical between the 2 models as you know.

Re: M100 v4 NEW purchase. - 10/18/1405:15 PM

Haha! So I bought an M100v4 and forced it to sound like the M80v3 (but with a v4 cross-over per Ian). There is a small difference between the M80's and 100's - and that obviously is in the bottom-end at larger output levels.

I think the metal tweeters too sound like the ones with plastic flashing - except at higher volume levels. So, turn up the volume to hear the differences :-)

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 11/26/1401:39 AM

The SWR-M100 is designed to work in virtually any type of enclosure. It can work in a sealed or vented enclosure, or infinite baffle for the widest application.This is 10". In addition to this , I want to know about a new model that constitutes much better thing.

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 11/26/1406:52 AM

Re: New LFR1100 woofer - 06/08/1509:33 PM

I think this just made reality ....now I see the difference ...Just ordered the VP180. I think in a couple years I am upgrading to the M80HP.no maybe by that time they will update the mid range drivers inline with the woofer and tweeters for a v5