In Vanilla you had quests in Brill, that still exist in another form, for gathering herbs to make better plagues and poisons for The Dark Lady. Did you forget about the New Plague and the Blight that was to be tested on "the living?" The Novel in which Sylvanus watched as her R.A.S. tested their concoctions on living and Undead prisoners to see how quickly and efficiently it would break down both the living and the undead? What about the orders from even Garrosh himself to never use these against Gilneas only to have them immediately layered on the townsfolk who weren't even warriors until their town filled with an occupying army?

The Forsaken were always suppose to be the faction of genocide and cruelty. This'll be the second time today I've posted this but why not:

Even the Frostwolf clan refuses to join or even aid the current Horde because of the Forsaken's past actions:

They are doing what they are doing due to their background. Being dead and hunted - as in cold cynical beings who strike before considering you would be friendly since its their experience thats better. As you can see around the world there are forsaken who doesn't follow this train of thought though, and they can express genuine emotions (but seems more often not). In regards to Garrosh he is most likely just "concerned" it would affect his own troops.

"Only Jack can zip up."
The word you want to use is "have" not "of".
You may have alot of stuff in your country, but we got Lolland.

And that's where the tricky part begins. Actually, I hate this word, it's childish. Everything has a motive and consequences, but simple cause-effect relations get twisted and uncontrollable at times. That is why they say that the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

But regarding the Forsaken, one should remember that they have a completely different view on death. Slaying someone isn't a problem because they can be simply rezzed to see the humor of their situation. You may loathe undead, but let's look at how you sing when you become undead. This may seen a small thing at first, but I think it's one of the fundamental things in terms of morale.

As for the plague, I see no problem at all. Yes, it's effective. It's a weapon of mass destruction that does not damage non-organic substance, and it's awesome. In fact, so awesome that Orgrimmar is afraid of Forsaken. You may say anything, but this kind of weaponry is way better than what is used commonly - cannon fodder that mindlessly shouts "Lok'tar Ogar/For the Alliance!" or explosives that destroy absolutely everything. Personally, I don't care what brings death - be it a blade (which is somehow considered valorous), bullet (considered normal), explosion (considered a bit gruesome), or disease/poison (which is somehow considered dirty and immoral to deliver). Death is death, doesn't matter how it happened. Dumb knights think it's low to use a disease to kill one of them because "it takes no skill", go brew it yourself then.

Originally Posted by Scummer

Their version of "reclaiming their freedom" consisted of them killing their kin after betraying them.
People are happy to ignore that that when the Forsaken (Before they were even called that) first met a part of Humanity the two actually formed an alliance of convenience and this was considering the leader was one of the most racist and bigoted leaders to ever grace Warcraft. One of the agreements was that the living would get Lordaeron. Sylvanas and the Forsaken chose not to abide by this.
The fact is they denied their kin first.

It's not called "betrayal", it's called "foresight". Do you honestly think they didn't think it over? It was crystal clear that Garithos wanted to simply exploit the Forsaken and get rid of them, leaving them nothing in return, you don't have to be a genius to understand it. Sylvanas simply chose to use him instead, preventing any bullshit he would without doubt rain down on them. Sould I remind you that it started with him "thanking" undead Lordaeronians for freeing him of slavery by allowing them to help him claim the Capital and then get out with no reward. How's that called?

Would you always wait to be abused just to be able to tell you weren't the first one to strike, and therefore innocent? This principle can also be played with easily, just set youself up to look like a victim. Sylvanas simply didn't bother with that.

"A NAME IS A CLOAK OF LETTERS THROWN UPON A MAN. IT MEANS NOTHING." - Transcendent One, Planescape: Torment.

That opens up a really big can of worms that usually only ends up in people screaming at each other.

Or they could go for the safest, simplest definition such as "causing harm to other sentient beings, who posed no direct threat and provoked no attention, for the direct purpose of sating their own desires."

Currently trying to experiences all classes at 100. Count so far: 6.
Ahead of the Curve: Imperator's Fall 1/29/15 with a friendly casual guild.

I guess after being hunted by the scarlet crusade, mistrusted and hated simply for being dead, that has to have some serious psycological issues on you, its no surprise they don't trust anyone beyond themselves, I guess in their minds its an "its us or them" situation, I used to get an aura of desperation from some undead NPC's, the way they felt like joining sylvanas was there only option, now I'm not so sure.

They are amoral sociopaths building an empire. The forsaken rarely do anything cause of "evil", they rarely do something that will not lead to an advantage.

Evil is absolute, primal, it is the mean and the end on itself. The forsaken's actions are means to guarantee their existence.

Of course, these actions are callous, horrible, cruel and downright despicable most of the time; but their objective it's survival.

*Now, defining evil would takes us nowhere for the next century or so, That's why I'm using the sort-of arbitrary supposition that "intentionality" is what matters in this case. Can you be evil when you don't mean or care to be evil? Is it reveling on other's suffering and pain a condition of evil?

I guess after being hunted by the scarlet crusade, mistrusted and hated simply for being dead, that has to have some serious psycological issues on you, its no surprise they don't trust anyone beyond themselves, I guess in their minds its an "its us or them" situation, I used to get an aura of desperation from some undead NPC's, the way they felt like joining sylvanas was there only option, now I'm not so sure.

Not to mention having your senses ripped from you, that cannot be pleasant. Physical pain, taste and smell, all gone. Pretty sure it was written somewhere that they are also colorblind. They lost the senses that keep them in touch with the world and it's people. It's no wonder they have trouble getting along with living races beyond all the bullshit they have had to endure from other races. Personally I love how the undead story has evolved over the years. They have stopped being afraid of who they are and trying to be something they are no longer. They have fully embraced the fact that they are different now and don't give a crap if you have a problem with it. Defeating the Lich King and the Wrathgate gave them much needed confidence.

Last edited by Duncanîdaho; 2012-12-29 at 04:39 AM.

The generalist looks outward; he looks for living principles, knowing full well that such principles change, that they develop. It is to the characteristics of change itself that the mentat-generalist must look. There can be no permanent catalogue of such change, no handbook or manual. You must look at it with as few preconceptions as possible, asking yourself, "Now what is this thing doing?"-Children of Dune

If you play beyond the introduction, it's the opposite. They used to be a very laid back race that mostly did the bare minimum required to protect themselves. They just had a lot of enemies and some Forsaken were rather enthusiastic about eradicating them. Now they're much more aggressive, fortifying their positions and going on the offensive against any potential enemy. The apothecaries used to be mostly educated individuals who did what they could with minimal resources to help Forsaken forces. Now they're producing weapons of mass destruction on an industrial scale, with big fancy laboratories and warmachines in most settlements.

Originally Posted by TheWindWalker

Or they could go for the safest, simplest definition such as "causing harm to other sentient beings, who posed no direct threat and provoked no attention, for the direct purpose of sating their own desires."

The Forsaken do what they do out of perceived necessity. As they see it, their extreme actions are justified (and made necessary) by their extreme situation. I'm not sure if anyone else is really in a position to judge them, considering the whole "brought back from death to a cursed un-existence" thing. They are no more evil than any other Warcraft race.

Play the quests in Silverpine. Then you may even feel simpathy for the bastards.

Even tough they are dead, they are still the citizens of Lordaeron. Something the Alliance will not accept. The Alliance, that they used to the part of. And the Alliance is trying to take Lordaeron back, killing every Forsaken in the way. By this perspective, it is hard to deny they are under pressure.

Sure, they have some very questionable methods, like using the Plague, something that even brutal Garrosh forbade. And there are indeed some Forsaken that are just evil. But every race has some individuals that are evil, it is not a Forsaken only trait.

Even tough they are dead, they are still the citizens of Lordaeron. Something the Alliance will not accept. The Alliance, that they used to the part of. And the Alliance is trying to take Lordaeron back, killing every Forsaken in the way. By this perspective, it is hard to deny they are under pressure.

There have never been any quests that put you into direct charge with killing the Forsaken to reclaim land in Lordaeron for the Alliance at all. There have been plenty, in Cata, where the Forsaken attack Alliance land to reclaim it for themselves and "the Horde".

There have never been any quests that put you into direct charge with killing the Forsaken to reclaim land in Lordaeron for the Alliance at all. There have been plenty, in Cata, where the Forsaken attack Alliance land to reclaim it for themselves and "the Horde".

then what was the whole deal with the Alliance advance in the (former?) Western Plaguelands?

---------- Post added 2012-12-29 at 07:49 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Haven

Death is death, doesn't matter how it happened. Dumb knights think it's low to use a disease to kill one of them because "it takes no skill", go brew it yourself then.

Kinda agree here
People always point out the use of Plauge as an automatic "must be evil" thing
But honestly I see no difference from a plauge bomb, a high explosive bomb, or a beef jerkey bomb

We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

Play the quests in Silverpine. Then you may even feel simpathy for the bastards.

Even tough they are dead, they are still the citizens of Lordaeron. Something the Alliance will not accept. The Alliance, that they used to the part of. And the Alliance is trying to take Lordaeron back, killing every Forsaken in the way. By this perspective, it is hard to deny they are under pressure.

Sure, they have some very questionable methods, like using the Plague, something that even brutal Garrosh forbade. And there are indeed some Forsaken that are just evil. But every race has some individuals that are evil, it is not a Forsaken only trait.

You do realise those attacks made to Lordaeron are happening because the Forsaken invaded Gilneas leading to it's people's exodus along with leaving the city uninhabitable because of their plague. On top of this the Forsaken make i abundantly clear that they don't give a toss about the living citizens of Lordaeron as evidenced when they destroyed Southshore.
They've gone beyond defending their own to the point of invading other people's land.

They are amoral sociopaths building an empire. The forsaken rarely do anything cause of "evil", they rarely do something that will not lead to an advantage.

Evil is absolute, primal, it is the mean and the end on itself. The forsaken's actions are means to guarantee their existence.

Of course, these actions are callous, horrible, cruel and downright despicable most of the time; but their objective it's survival.

*Now, defining evil would takes us nowhere for the next century or so, That's why I'm using the sort-of arbitrary supposition that "intentionality" is what matters in this case. Can you be evil when you don't mean or care to be evil? Is it reveling on other's suffering and pain a condition of evil?

So when the Alliance counter attack into Lordaeron the Forsaken are the poor race defending their land?
Then when the Forsaken openly kill the living residents of Lordaeron it's suddenly fine cause they're the enemy?
Sylvanas loves moaning about "this our land how dare the Alliance counter attack here!" mean while ignoring Soutshore and Gilneas.

Again Forsaken are built on hypocrisy. Aslong as they feel that they're the victims they feel they're being mistreated by the others. When somebody else is the victim it's fine.

Good and evil are not just black and white, they are a sliding and ambiguous scale of grey. One persons definition of evil is another persons view of good. Do terrorists consider themselves to be evil, well no of course they don't, they think of themselves as being on a righteous cause and doing gods will.

I certainly don't think that the Forsaken consider themselves to be evil, rather they consider themselves to be victims of an appalling fate, doing what they must to survive.

I certainly don't think that the Forsaken consider themselves to be evil, rather they consider themselves to be victims of an appalling fate, doing what they must to survive.

Ofcourse they don't consider themselves evil. Practically all villains believe what they're doing is in their own misguided way right and justified. But it doesn't make it right. Especially not to others or the victims of their actions.
I've always felt the Forsaken morality/reasons are a combination of their hypocritical belief that they're the victim no matter what they do regardless of the victim in question and thus they are not in the right and the simple fact that they just don't care. They break any code they can to reach their goal.

The fact is one's judgement of whether or not they are evil has never been down to the perpetrator and instead the majority of the population and of the victims.

"Good" and "Evil" are such idiotic concepts. Everyone does what he think is right. There's no black or white, but many shades of gray and they're all in the eyes of the beholder. In the Forsaken's case, what people expect them to do? "Ok, the lich king is dead, lets all jump off a cliff". They've been FORCED into their condition and are simply looking to make the best of it for themselves. Yes they are often amoral, but that has a lot to do with their condition, kinda hard to feel empathy towards people hell-bent on destroying you and all of your kind when you can't already feel much anything at all. They do what's best for them no matter what's the cost, wich is honestly what most races in Warcraft lore are doing.

Personally i'm fine with this. I loved the tragic aspect they had before and i still like what they're growing into, and honestly feels like its the only natural course they could had taken.

There have never been any quests that put you into direct charge with killing the Forsaken to reclaim land in Lordaeron for the Alliance at all. There have been plenty, in Cata, where the Forsaken attack Alliance land to reclaim it for themselves and "the Horde".

There are no quests, but there is Sylvanas speech. And Varian Wrynn surely qould like to take Lordaeron back. Only that he couldn't get there yet.

---------- Post added 2012-12-29 at 11:43 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Scummer

You do realise those attacks made to Lordaeron are happening because the Forsaken invaded Gilneas leading to it's people's exodus along with leaving the city uninhabitable because of their plague. On top of this the Forsaken make i abundantly clear that they don't give a toss about the living citizens of Lordaeron as evidenced when they destroyed Southshore.
They've gone beyond defending their own to the point of invading other people's land.

At this point the Forsaken are the biggest hypocrites in WoW.

The attack on Gilneas was on Forsaken account, sure. They thought it was too dangeous to have an Alliance stronghold so close to the Undercity. Also, it is part of the Forsaken campaign for conquest, that's for sure. I didn't say the Forsaken are not to blame for taking Alliance land, and worse, using the Plague to do that. They surely are not just holding their "rightfull" land, they are expanding over northern Eastern Kingdoms. The same way the Orcs are expanding in northern Kalimdor.