I only like KnC a bit more because they offer refunds. I'm not sure if that is true with HashFast.

KNC "offered" refunds and then refused to honor that agreement in the end.

That is because orders went into production. You can still get a refund for November.

Yeah come on. The promise to customers is they could cancel up to the day THEIR ORDER ships. Some people tried to cancel on the first and were told orders can't be cancelled and it is now 15 days later and they haven't received hardware. Any way you shake it the promise to cancel ended up being utterly worthless. They promised one thing and at the last minute changed the terms. I mean by your logic BFL is A+ business as well. Production began back in last November so obviously they can't allow any cancellations right?

I've just been offered the option to cancel my OCTOBER delivery orders (end of the queue, at this moment still showing "paid") for a full refund. Or i can wait "few more days" to be built and shipped with no further compensations.Simply because KNC finally dropped that imperative and annoying "NO REFUNDS" made me take a decision.

Hasn't been confirmed but their delivery date was by the 15th, so now that it is after that date and they are opening refunds does that change anything?

I only like KnC a bit more because they offer refunds. I'm not sure if that is true with HashFast.

KNC "offered" refunds and then refused to honor that agreement in the end.

That is because orders went into production. You can still get a refund for November.

Yeah come on. The promise to customers is they could cancel up to the day THEIR ORDER ships. Some people tried to cancel on the first and were told orders can't be cancelled and it is now 15 days later and they haven't received hardware. Any way you shake it the promise to cancel ended up being utterly worthless. They promised one thing and at the last minute changed the terms. I mean by your logic BFL is A+ business as well. Production began back in last November so obviously they can't allow any cancellations right?

Even if i support and respect KnC i must admit that i really don't understand why are they refusing refunds. Refunding means more angry people receiving their units a bit faster than normal plus the fact that they still have November orders i think moving up the queue should become an easier thing instead of all this no refunds mess.

Even if i support and respect KnC i must admit that i really don't understand why are they refusing refunds.

$$$$

Imagine you sold a widget for $5K and tomorrow widgets will only sell for $3K. Sure you can accept a refund and then sell the unit again for future delivery. Each refund essentially costs you the difference between the price you were already paid and the price you will be paid. Now one or two refunds is one thing but given they knew they were going to be days (weeks) late it could have meant hundreds of refund requests. The cost of each on is the difference between pre-sale prices and future sale prices.

I've just been offered the option to cancel my OCTOBER delivery orders (end of the queue, at this moment still showing "paid") for a full refund. Or i can wait "few more days" to be built and shipped with no further compensations.Simply because KNC finally dropped that imperative and annoying "NO REFUNDS" made me take a decision.

Hasn't been confirmed but their delivery date was by the 15th, so now that it is after that date and they are opening refunds does that change anything?

There's one logical explanation: They are dead afraid of storm of credit card charge-backs. Company with CC companies on their back is in deep trouble, blocked bank accounts may mean the end. It's better for them to give the refunds at their free will since many, many people threatened to call their CC companies on Oct 16th.

Even if i support and respect KnC i must admit that i really don't understand why are they refusing refunds.

$$$$

Imagine you sold a widget for $5K and tomorrow widgets will only sell for $3K. Sure you can accept a refund and then sell the unit again for future delivery. Each refund essentially costs you the difference between the price you were already paid and the price you will be paid. Now one or two refunds is one thing but given they knew they were going to be days (weeks) late it could have meant hundreds of refund requests. The cost of each on is the difference between pre-sale prices and future sale prices.

Isn't the truth somewhere in the middle? What if with each refund and loss of ~2k$ you will get more sales that will make you more money than the loss? This could be a scenario too or they can just mine with the units and just ship them when needed in November to customers. It seems to me that in the Bitcoin world you always have more options available.

Why does it feel like the MPP isn't really protection, but just a setup to get us to buy more equipment in the future?

Seems a pretty bad "setup" to give away free hardware. HF has clarified the MPP is for complete mining boards. Beyond that you just need power supply, cooling, usb cables, and some device (PC, rPi, other device capable of running linux) as a host. All of that can be bought off the shelf from newegg or amazon. HF doesn't benefit from the MPP.

Why does it feel like the MPP isn't really protection, but just a setup to get us to buy more equipment in the future?

Seems a pretty bad "setup" to give away free hardware. HF has clarified the MPP is for complete mining boards. Beyond that you just need power supply, cooling, usb cables, and some device (PC, rPi, other device capable of running linux) as a host. All of that can be bought off the shelf from newegg or amazon. HF doesn't benefit from the MPP.

some might call this "generosity". i freely admit, other terms that might end up applying are "brilliance" or "stupidity" depending on how it turns out.

Why does it feel like the MPP isn't really protection, but just a setup to get us to buy more equipment in the future?

Seems a pretty bad "setup" to give away free hardware. HF has clarified the MPP is for complete mining boards. Beyond that you just need power supply, cooling, usb cables, and some device (PC, rPi, other device capable of running linux) as a host. All of that can be bought off the shelf from newegg or amazon. HF doesn't benefit from the MPP.

Oh okay, wasn't aware that it was for COMPLETE mining boards and assumed it was just for the chips.

Either way, considering that even before we get our miners, the miners won't be able to ROI in 90 days, shouldn't they help out their customers and follow through with their MPP as early as they can?? I mean, since they are gonna have to send us the chips anyways..

Why does it feel like the MPP isn't really protection, but just a setup to get us to buy more equipment in the future?

Seems a pretty bad "setup" to give away free hardware. HF has clarified the MPP is for complete mining boards. Beyond that you just need power supply, cooling, usb cables, and some device (PC, rPi, other device capable of running linux) as a host. All of that can be bought off the shelf from newegg or amazon. HF doesn't benefit from the MPP.

Oh okay, wasn't aware that it was for COMPLETE mining boards and assumed it was just for the chips.

Either way, considering that even before we get our miners, the miners won't be able to ROI in 90 days, shouldn't they help out their customers and follow through with their MPP as early as they can?? I mean, since they are gonna have to send us the chips anyways..

Why does it feel like the MPP isn't really protection, but just a setup to get us to buy more equipment in the future?

Seems a pretty bad "setup" to give away free hardware. HF has clarified the MPP is for complete mining boards. Beyond that you just need power supply, cooling, usb cables, and some device (PC, rPi, other device capable of running linux) as a host. All of that can be bought off the shelf from newegg or amazon. HF doesn't benefit from the MPP.

I disagree. AFAICT, the MPP is just another way to get more presales. Lets take a babyjet december order. Without MPP it costs $2250. WIth MPP it costs $4050.If you include the costs of the things you just mentioned, you basically pay the same for the MPP as for the original mining device, and for that money you get a maximum of 4x the hashrate 3+ months later (the plus is important, it could be 6 or more months later for all I know, since HF doesnt mention it). With hashrate still more than doubling each month, that just doesnt make a good deal. In three months the network would grow 8x at current rates, and if HF takes a month to ship your modules, it might have grown 16x by the time you receive your modules which "only" cost 1/4th per GH of your original order. And sure, hashrate growth might slow down, but in that case you most likely wouldnt get 4x the original hashrate either. So its just another unprofitable preorder scheme thats more likely to add insult to injury than protecting anyone.