Nutsac_Jim:Sergeant Grumbles: Fade2black: Have you heard of entry level jobs to get your skills in order, so you can actually take some initiative to move on to a better paying job through school, training, or perseverance? Not everything is handed out on a silver platter (yet, the dems have 4 more years). If that was the case, high school kids would be basking in riches from Mcdonald's.

Retail and Fast Food is tradionally entry level jobs. They are used for job experience and training so you can move on to bigger and better. They are not jobs built around you deciding you're entitled to a pension and a petty cash fund.

Is there some reason working for Wal-Mart need not be gainful employment besides your opinion of what counts as work?

If you want to do that, then you work your way up to management and you get more money.

So are you saying that it's OK for an employer to ask for ALL of your timewhich is not occupied by eating, sleeping, or travelling to/from work and not pay you enough to actually live on? Even if we eliminate insurance? You're part of the problem if your answer is yes. This isn't a right vs. left or Obama vs Romney thing. It's not even about Wal-Mart specifically. This is about doing the right thing.

rtaylor92:Are you sitting down for this because I don't want you to hurt yourself....German and Japanese autoworkers are both unionized. U.S. Auto struggling the last few decades was simply because they designed and tried to sell awful awful cars.

Germany and Japan also have socialized medicine, so the cost of employee health care (current and future) is not included in the price of their cars.

ACallForPeace:Mikey1969: You don't understand how these things work, do you? You get the best results when you give the organization that you are protesting a chance to resolve the issue before D-Day. Also, it gets the word out, making it easier to get press coverage and find people familiar with the issue if the protest is carried out.

That's a good attitude for feel-good liberal reformism.It's not a good attitude to take for an effective direct action though.The powers that be don't respond when you ask nicely, at most you get an extra symbolic crumb. The best thing to do is act on your own and bypass their channels all together.Kind of like the difference between a gathered circle of liberals kindly asking for change and getting pepper sprayed in the face for their kindness (UC Davis, I think?) , or instead having a group of people willing to throw back tear gas canisters and light fires to make sure people can breathe and play ball when the cops initiate violence, all the while causing economic damage to corporations who threatened to fire their employees if they made political statements (Oakland).

OK, as someone pointed out to another poster, you don't understand how unions work, do you? There is more warning and negotiation going on than there is actual striking. I figured that part out in High School.

LavenderWolf:atomic-age: rolladuck: insertsnarkyusername: The can ask for a union and the company legally has to say yes.

The company can also legally shut down those stores. And re-open others in the next town where there is high unemployment of un- or marginally-skilled workers.

Unions aren't the be-all and end-all of employer-employee relationship management. And you catch more flies with honey than vinegar, ... at least metaphorically.

How do you suggest employees sweetly get WM to stop locking them in to work 'off the clock', pay them enough that how to apply for welfare directions are not part of the pre-employment package, and to promote female and minority employees fairly?

Locked in to work? I would kill over that.

/Yes, I expect to be the subject of a dark article one day.

There are a lot of things I say I would kill over but I don't mean it. This is one of those things I probably would not kill over, but there would probably be a broken door and a job to fill when all was said and done if it was me.

Tellingthem:always wondered where his historical standing would have been if Watergate never happened.

Pretty high up most likely. Granted it doesn't help that almost as soon as he was out of office, the EPA and OSHA, which were created during his time in office and given some very serious teeth, found themselves being weakened, by members of Nixon's own party no less.

Fade2black:And he was also one of the most batshiat insane presidents we've ever had. Let that sink in for a while.

His paranoia was a personal thing, when it came to policy he was completely clear headed. And many times far more insightful than he's been given credit for.

No, you didn't.You just stated your opinion, and now you've followed up with a second one, an unfounded assumption, and an ad hominem attack.

I'll put it you again:

Is there some reason working for Wal-Mart need not be gainful employment besides your opinion of what counts as work?

Especially since all of the definitions I see for "gainfully employed" just say that you are working for a wage. He needs a new catchphrase, because by definition, every person who works at WalMart is "gainfully employed".

Do you support the idea of a Chamber of Commerce? Do you support industry organizations that allow those industries to represent their interests both to the public, as well as to legislators and other politicians? Allow management to confer with one another to build and share strategies that will make said industries run smoother and more efficiently? Even represent their interests in lawsuits to preserve those interests?

If you do, then congratulations, you've just defended the reasons that unions exist. So long as owners and management can confer and associate freely in industry organizations, then workers have the same right to organize themselves in a similar fashion, and even represent their interests to legislators and defend their members from what they see as onerous roadblocks, and even what they see as unfair practices and to defend their compensation.

So long as management has the right to organize and confer, and act upon those meetings and strategize, then labor has the same right.

If you think that NO ONE should associate as such, then congrats, you are likewise against the freedom of assembly, and you should take your Un-American ass out to Somalia or some backwater where they don't have rights guaranteed...

So, the "Occupy" folks come up with an idea to encourage WalMart workers to walk off the job on Black Friday with nothing more than a "don't worry, we've got your back..." And despite the fact this is something that originated from the "Occupy" folks, it is being billed as "WalMart workers are organizing..."

At the end of the day whom are the people that will end up getting screwed? It will not be WalMart, it certainly won't be the people behind the "Occupy" movement, it will be the poor WalMart employees that mistakenly believed that "Occupy" actually gave a damn about them as an person.

I will back off me criticism if "Occupy" comes up with the $25K per WalMart employee + insurance benefits for each WalMart employee that walks out on Black Friday, anything short of making good on this, and its just another example of "Occupy" being full of shiat.

Silly Jesus:This can be seen from capitalist society, in which workers sell their freedom to a boss in order to live. In effect, under capitalism you are only free to the extent that you can choose whom you will obey! Freedom, ho ...

WhyteRaven74:steamingpile: Sue for what? Forcing them to show up for the job they said they would show up for? Some of you are farking insane.

it's illegal to fire employees for organizing or trying to organize. It's a federal law, and in some states there are additional laws. Laws go back to when Carnegie Steel called in the Pinkertons and had them get all shooty with some striking workers.

It just flabbergasts me that we're still having these fights today against the Titans of Consumerism (who have replaced Titans of Industry in this day and age). I have the sinking feeling that this may get every bit as ugly, though hopefully not as shooty/stabby/clubby.

My local Wal-Mart is one that's planning to walk out, and I'll be there with them.

WhyteRaven74:steamingpile: Sue for what? Forcing them to show up for the job they said they would show up for? Some of you are farking insane.

it's illegal to fire employees for organizing or trying to organize. It's a federal law, and in some states there are additional laws. Laws go back to when Carnegie Steel called in the Pinkertons and had them get all shooty with some striking workers.

You don't fire them for organizing. You fire them for not showing up to work.

Great Janitor:If they want a better paying job, a better working environment no one is forcing them to work at Walmart, they are free to find new jobs.

It's like you have no idea about the unemployment numbers. Are you really so stupid that you think that people would actually choose to work at Wal-Mart if they had any other option? FFS the people that work there can't even afford to shop there and have to go on government assistance. If you are ok with that then, by all means, please proceed.

No, you didn't.You just stated your opinion, and now you've followed up with a second one, an unfounded assumption, and an ad hominem attack.

I'll put it you again:

Is there some reason working for Wal-Mart need not be gainful employment besides your opinion of what counts as work?

Oo Oo I can play this roundabout game too!

Is there a reason why Wal-Mart should pay a wage to employees that would count as gainfully employed? You haven't explained the repercussions when wages go up dollars an hour, to the product they sell or the services they give. Wages go up, cost goes up. Nothing of value was gained except you might feel better about yourself when you go home after your shift.

BravadoGT:You know what kind of employee I want at my business? The kind that tries to hurt me on arguably the busiest day of the year. GTFO--and God help you if you put me down on your next application and they call me.

Yes, I'm sure you masturbate furiously to the fantasy that one day that phone call will come, ONE DAY you will get to deny another human being of the chance at paying work. "God help you" indeed! Oh, the POWER you have!

ox45tallboy:rtaylor92: Are you sitting down for this because I don't want you to hurt yourself....German and Japanese autoworkers are both unionized. U.S. Auto struggling the last few decades was simply because they designed and tried to sell awful awful cars.

Germany and Japan also have socialized medicine, so the cost of employee health care (current and future) is not included in the price of their cars.

Walmart and other big companies achieve economies of scale due to their size.

a union allows workers to gain that same advantage, and see the benefits of economies of scale.

if you want to take issue with how unions are run, fine (I will probably agree, but they aren't run any better than most companies). but wish for the end of unions? congrats, you don't know jack shiat about economics.

Silly Jesus:ACallForPeace: Silly Jesus: It's a voluntary exchange. They went to Wal-mart and asked for the ability to exchange their labor for the amount of money that Wal-mart was offering. They weren't recruited or forced to work there. If they don't like the terms of their voluntary contract, they are free to leave and Wal-mart should be free to replace them with someone else.

Voluntarism implies promising (i.e. the freedom to make agreements), and promising implies that individuals are capable of independent judgement and rational deliberation. In addition, it presupposes that they can evaluate and change their actions and relationships. Contracts under capitalism, however, contradict these implications of voluntarism. For, while technically "voluntary" , capitalist contracts result in a denial of liberty. This is because the social relationship of wage-labour involves promising to obey in return for payment. To promise to obey is to deny or to limit, to a greater or lesser degree, individuals' freedom and equality and their ability to exercise these capacities [of independent judgement and rational deliberation]. To promise to obey is to state, that in certain areas, the person making the promise is no longer free to exercise her capacities and decide upon her own actions, and is no longer equal, but subordinate. This results in those obeying no longer making their own decisions. Thus the rational for voluntarism (i.e. that individuals are capable of thinking for themselves and must be allowed to express their individuality and make their own decisions) is violated in a hierarchical relationship as some are in charge and the many obey. Thus any voluntarism which generates relationships of subordination is, by its very nature, incomplete and violates its own justification.

This can be seen from capitalist society, in which workers sell their freedom to a boss in order to live. In effect, under capitalism you are only free to the extent that you can choose whom you will ob ...

jpo2269:So, the "Occupy" folks come up with an idea to encourage WalMart workers to walk off the job on Black Friday with nothing more than a "don't worry, we've got your back..." And despite the fact this is something that originated from the "Occupy" folks, it is being billed as "WalMart workers are organizing..."

At the end of the day whom are the people that will end up getting screwed? It will not be WalMart, it certainly won't be the people behind the "Occupy" movement, it will be the poor WalMart employees that mistakenly believed that "Occupy" actually gave a damn about them as an person.

I will back off me criticism if "Occupy" comes up with the $25K per WalMart employee + insurance benefits for each WalMart employee that walks out on Black Friday, anything short of making good on this, and its just another example of "Occupy" being full of shiat.

CujoQuarrel:Mikey1969: Silly Jesus: Mikey1969: Silly Jesus: LULZ. I hope they are all fired. Plenty more people out there who would love their job.

It's hard to "love" a place that locks people in at night and refuses to pay them, let alone pay them needed overtime.

But hey, keep on being clueless, we need people like that here on Fark.

Are they not capable of calling 911? That's called false imprisonment and it's a pretty serious felony.

Not sure. They were told that they were being locked in because it was company policy that the doors were locked when the store was closed. Regardless, it is hard to "love" to have a job like that, which is what I was pointing out in your original statement. I've heard of plenty of people who worked there because they 'had' to, but never anyone that worked there because they "loved" to have the job.

Blue_Blazer:Great Janitor: If they want a better paying job, a better working environment no one is forcing them to work at Walmart, they are free to find new jobs.

It's like you have no idea about the unemployment numbers. Are you really so stupid that you think that people would actually choose to work at Wal-Mart if they had any other option? FFS the people that work there can't even afford to shop there and have to go on government assistance. If you are ok with that then, by all means, please proceed.

Oh, we're going to try the excuse of "There are no other jobs out there?" Bullshait. If that were true then websites like Monster would be completely void of jobs. There would be no jobs posted on craigslist. There are jobs out there, you just have to look for them. And if you live in some strange place where there are no jobs, work for yourself. Find something that people aren't willing to and charge them for it. Hell, you can probably become self employed charging lazy ass people money to pick up their dog's shiat and make more money than Walmart pays their own people.

Okay people, since there are so many who do not understand what it is like for an average Wal-Mart employee:

Meet my sister. She's 31, married, with 3 kids. Her and her husband receive his disability pay from his service in Iraqi Freedom, but it's not enough to pay the bills. She took a "part time" job at nights at Wal-Mart, who told her that she would need to work night shift "until they got someone else", and they'd "giver her more hours", as in 40 instead of 32, until they "got night shift where they wanted it".

In the past ten months, she worked ONE week at less than 40 hours. But she is not allowed to get insurance, because she is a "part-time" employee. She has to be there for one year.

Day shift had an opening. However, her night shift manager said she was a great worker and he needed her on nights, so the day shift position went to a new hire.

At times, she is asked to stay over by her manager and do extra work. This work is on the clock, but there's a catch:

She is scheduled at 10:00 on Friday night. The end-of-week pay period is midnight Friday night. If she has worked over through the week, she must report in, but is not allowed to clock in because she could wind up with OVERTIME. Instead, she has to show that she came in to work on time, then she is free to stand in the parking lot with all the low-lifes who hang out at the Wal-Mart parking lot at 10:00 on Friday night.

But it gets better!

She was denied a raise at her 6-month eval for.... ATTENDANCE!

But she never misses work!

Guess what? All those times she clocked in late on Friday nights to avoid overtime - SHE WAS TARDY!

She just had a meeting with the GM of the store to address the insurance issue. She was told point blank she would not be receiving insurance becasue she was a "part time" employee. So, she changed her availability to ensure she would only be scheduled for 4 nights a week. Two days later, the schedule was changed back to 5 nights a week.

On Black Friday, she is supposed to work "Security", which is going to entail keeping order in these long lines of people waiting to receive pieces of paper they can exchange for their items at the counter.

ILoveBurritos:On a tangent though, I've read that companies that want to sell with Walmart have to meet certain price guidelines otherwise Walmart won't carry their products and since Walmart is such an important chain to sell through. Companies are basically forced to make cheaper products for these dumbass consumers.

That's not quite it... Companies actually make inferior versions of their products specifically for WalMart. They still make their 'original formula' for everyone else. I saw it in both socks and underwear when I used to buy them there. I continued to buy the same brand outside of WalMart and found a noticeable improvement. My brother in law pointed this out after watching this movie... Wal-Mart: The High Cost of Low Price

ILoveBurritos:What this really all comes down to is that I hadn't had to buy denim jeans for a decade, and now that I'm looking, all I can find anywhere is paper thin garbage that doesn't feel sturdy at all, anywhere. When I compare it to my old ones, the newer ones are obviously inferior. Why would I want to spend $30 on a cheap pair of jeans I'll end up replacing 5 times in the span that a $60 pair would have lasted me once?

I wouldn't ever buy Levi's at WalMart, but a pair still lasts me 3 or 4 years, and then the first thing to go is the one knee that drops first when I stop at someone's desk to set tup, remove or repair their computer. Otherwise I'd probably get another year or so out of them. The bonus is that by watching for sales, I can still get the Levi's I wear for $32 to $38 a pair.

In short, the only clothes I buy from WalMart are TShirts, and those are only the retro-styled printed ones they have for like $7-$10. All my other clothes I buy at stores like Kohl's or Sears...

jpo2269:So, the "Occupy" folks come up with an idea to encourage WalMart workers to walk off the job on Black Friday with nothing more than a "don't worry, we've got your back..." And despite the fact this is something that originated from the "Occupy" folks, it is being billed as "WalMart workers are organizing..."

At the end of the day whom are the people that will end up getting screwed? It will not be WalMart, it certainly won't be the people behind the "Occupy" movement, it will be the poor WalMart employees that mistakenly believed that "Occupy" actually gave a damn about them as an person.

I will back off me criticism if "Occupy" comes up with the $25K per WalMart employee + insurance benefits for each WalMart employee that walks out on Black Friday, anything short of making good on this, and its just another example of "Occupy" being full of shiat.

Please tell me you're not serious. I really want to believe you have the power of individual thought.

Great Janitor:That is no different than me handing someone a hammer and saying "Now, if you bash your hand with this it could break your hand." and then watch as they bash their hand with said hammer and then listen as a bone or two breaks. No sympathy.

I guess that's what it comes down to, some people, including myself, would still have sympathy for our common man, even if he was dumb enough to hit himself with the hammer. Some people would lock them in a warehouse. You sir, are unsympathetic.

Nutsac_Jim:WhyteRaven74: steamingpile: Sue for what? Forcing them to show up for the job they said they would show up for? Some of you are farking insane.

it's illegal to fire employees for organizing or trying to organize. It's a federal law, and in some states there are additional laws. Laws go back to when Carnegie Steel called in the Pinkertons and had them get all shooty with some striking workers.

You don't fire them for organizing. You fire them for not showing up to work.

*WINK* *NUDGE*

Yes, I get that you've found a legal loophole but that still doesn't make it morally right. You do know what morals are, right? Should I post a definition for you?

sethen320:So are you saying that it's OK for an employer to ask for ALL of your timewhich is not occupied by eating, sleeping, or travelling to/from work and not pay you enough to actually live on? Even if we eliminate insurance? You're part of the problem if your answer is yes. This isn't a right vs. left or Obama vs Romney thing. It's not even about Wal-Mart specifically. This is about doing the right thing.

Odd indeed. I used to work at Wal-mart. I seemed to have enough to live on and stick money in the stock plan where the company matched part of my contributions.

Maybe the people you are talking about eat too much or something? I don't recall them asking for too much of my time.

Great Janitor:It's common knowledge that waiters make less than $3/hour.

If by "common knowledge" you mean, just waiters, managers and restaurant owners, I guess you're right.

Otherwise, you're full of shiat. I run into plenty of people who have never known that.

If they want a better paying job, a better working environment no one is forcing them to work at Walmart, they are free to find new jobs.

But I thought the evil Obama had saddled us with eleventy billion percent unemployment after the workers' utopia of George W Bush? I thought people "had" to take absolutely any job they could find? Are you people flipping the script yet again?

ox45tallboy:Great Janitor: If they want a better paying job, a better working environment no one is forcing them to work at Walmart, they are free to find new jobs.

And you're free to make sweet, sweet love to Christina Hendricks. However, that means getting her to cooperate, just like it means getting another employer to hire you.

Fact is, Wal-Mart runs the other businesses out when they put in a location. You either work there, or you don't work.

Umm, i hate to burst this myth, but they don't. On average, when a Walmart moves in, the number of businesses present beforehand that closes is 4. After 5 years, and if you've ever seen a Walmart built, a ton of crap gets built around it. I'm not going to look for this study tonight, google it yourself if you want to see it.

Great Janitor:Oh, we're going to try the excuse of "There are no other jobs out there?" Bullshait. If that were true then websites like Monster would be completely void of jobs. There would be no jobs posted on craigslist. There are jobs out there, you just have to look for them. And if you live in some strange place where there are no jobs, work for yourself. Find something that people aren't willing to and charge them for it. Hell, you can probably become self employed charging lazy ass people money to pick up their dog's shiat and make more money than Walmart pays their own people.

So you're saying:

"If she doesn't like it, she should find a better job!"

Because that's what you sound like. And remember what Steve Buscemi was doing in Tarantino's next movie.

If you're an unskilled laborer, you deserve no protections from unsafe or unpleasant working conditions.

That is the Republican dream. Heck, I bet when they owned slaved they biatched because they had to feed and shelter them. Face it, Republican/Libertarians won't truly be happy till they have child slaves working for free and sleeping on the ground outside the factories. Sadly, I see some of the more liberal people here bashing Walmart workers too. A job is a job and not everyone wants to be a doctor or a lawyer. There is no shame in any moral job and people shouldn't be put down for earning an honest dollar. It's pathetic how many people here feel so bad about themselves they have to dump on some poor minimum wage worker to make themselves feel important. What a sad world.

jayphat:Umm, i hate to burst this myth, but they don't. On average, when a Walmart moves in, the number of businesses present beforehand that closes is 4. After 5 years, and if you've ever seen a Walmart built, a ton of crap gets built around it. I'm not going to look for this study tonight, google it yourself if you want to see it.

Yeah, either a bunch of chain restaurants, or places that don't do any business related to WalMart. In other words, no competition.

Blue_Blazer:It's like you have no idea about the unemployment numbers. Are you really so stupid that you think that people would actually choose to work at Wal-Mart if they had any other option? FFS the people that work there can't even afford to shop there and have to go on government assistance. If you are ok with that then, by all means, please proceed.

He should have said, "they are free to attempt to find new jobs".

Most men reach their 50's and buy a convertible. My dad hit his 50's and quit his $75k/year job as a hospital equipment maintenance technician to work as a fry cook at Burger King, then moved over to Walmart. He could be better, but if he were on Fark, he'd be Bevets-adjacent, ... plus paranoid as all holy hell. I love him, but he's got no where else to go.As his only son, I can and would get him doing something more promising with his life if he would simply believe that he could 1) do well at it, and 2) not be a paranoid-delusional cluster-fark of a human. But he simply fails to think that he can succeed. That, and he has no people skills. He's not reclusive, he thinks YOU want to be interested in everything HE is interested in... and he's interested in lots of stuff.Maybe I should try... he was the only one in my family that didn't flip his shiat when I told them I was an atheist, so there's gotta be some good in there, I know it! [/Luke Skywalker Mode]

Je5tEr:atomic-age: How do you suggest employees sweetly get WM to stop locking them in to work 'off the clock'

Simple. If anyone EVER did that to me it'd be a call to 911 to report that I was being unlawfully imprisoned. And when the cops showed up I'd be standing on the other side of those glass doors with a sledgehammer and I'd tell them that either they get me out of there or I will.

Yeah! And if a guy ever tried to rape me, why I'd just kick him in the balls and laugh! What the hell is wrong with all these people that they can't take a stand and solve their own problems?!

BravadoGT:You know what kind of employee I want at my business? The kind that tries to hurt me on arguably the busiest day of the year. GTFO--and God help you if you put me down on your next application and they call me.

Nutsac_Jim:sethen320: So are you saying that it's OK for an employer to ask for ALL of your timewhich is not occupied by eating, sleeping, or travelling to/from work and not pay you enough to actually live on? Even if we eliminate insurance? You're part of the problem if your answer is yes. This isn't a right vs. left or Obama vs Romney thing. It's not even about Wal-Mart specifically. This is about doing the right thing.

Odd indeed. I used to work at Wal-mart. I seemed to have enough to live on and stick money in the stock plan where the company matched part of my contributions.

Maybe the people you are talking about eat too much or something? I don't recall them asking for too much of my time.

Ok, I'm intrigued. You were an employee which received pay that you were able to live on and still had free time? I'm not being contrarian, I'm actually open to learning more. If I'm wrong I would definitely like to know about it. What kind of position did you hold? Were you ever forced to work holidays? Locked in?

ciberido:CujoQuarrel: Mikey1969: Silly Jesus: Mikey1969: Silly Jesus: LULZ. I hope they are all fired. Plenty more people out there who would love their job.

It's hard to "love" a place that locks people in at night and refuses to pay them, let alone pay them needed overtime.

But hey, keep on being clueless, we need people like that here on Fark.

Are they not capable of calling 911? That's called false imprisonment and it's a pretty serious felony.

Not sure. They were told that they were being locked in because it was company policy that the doors were locked when the store was closed. Regardless, it is hard to "love" to have a job like that, which is what I was pointing out in your original statement. I've heard of plenty of people who worked there because they 'had' to, but never anyone that worked there because they "loved" to have the job.

Do you have a pointer to that case? Love to read up on it.

This NY Times article was my first search result.

Any retail store where the door locks on the inside require a key to unlock them is a fire marshals wet farking dream!

Fade2black:Is there a reason why Wal-Mart should pay a wage to employees that would count as gainfully employed? You haven't explained the repercussions when wages go up dollars an hour, to the product they sell or the services they give. Wages go up, cost goes up. Nothing of value was gained except you might feel better about yourself when you go home after your shift.

OgreMagi:Working on Black Friday is pretty much the norm for retail. If having to work that day turns out to be a surprise, you probably are at about your intelligence level for employment prospects.

HOWEVER! Starting Black Friday on 8pm Thanksgiving Day is a dick move by Walmart, Target, and Toys*R*Us. That's a farking family day. Let them have at least that before you work them to death the next day.

I've decided to boycott all businesses that start the holiday sales on Thanksgiving evening. For my xmas shopping, I think I'll go 100% online unless I find something especially nice in a shop that recognizes family time.

ox45tallboy:Great Janitor: Because in towns with Walmarts, there are no other employers at all???

Sigh,

Okay, so where do *all* of these employees go? Do you think there are enough other businesses to absorb even a fraction of the number of people Wal-Mart employs?

Taking a guess, I'm going to say that for those employees who aren't happy working there, there probably are enough other jobs out there to take. They just have to go out and find the job.

moefuggenbrew:Great Janitor: That is no different than me handing someone a hammer and saying "Now, if you bash your hand with this it could break your hand." and then watch as they bash their hand with said hammer and then listen as a bone or two breaks. No sympathy.

I guess that's what it comes down to, some people, including myself, would still have sympathy for our common man, even if he was dumb enough to hit himself with the hammer. Some people would lock them in a warehouse. You sir, are unsympathetic.

There are things that I do sympathize with. Someone gets rear ended in a car wreck by a drunk driver, yes I'm going to feel sympathy for the victims of that wreck. Someone does something of their own freewill and suffers, I'm not going to feel bad. My sister's mother in law died from emphysema and when my sister's husband told me, my response was to say "Pity she made the choice to smoke all those cigarettes."