wrote (December 30, 2002):< - Sonatas for viola da gamba and harpsichord with Paolo Pandolfo and Rinaldo Alessandrini (Harmonia Mundi 1955218, a midprice 2002 reissue) >I've had this for a couple months, but I don't think I or anyone else have mentioned this disc all year. I found some comments in the archives from 2+ years ago, before I was signed up here, and that's before this disc was reissued.

This recording is a delight. And I already had at least a dozen others of these works, so I don't know what possessed me to pick this up when I saw it in a shop, except for being midprice (everybody likes a bargain) and having liked Pandolfo's playing elsewhere. I've also liked most of Alessandrini's playing and conducting elsewhere. I had a little trepidation here because he sometimes has the Koopman tendency (fill the music with loud ornamental graffiti)...and Koopman was his teacher. But hey, midprice.

And it's stunning. They set the mood from the very first note, and keep it up. There is an uncommon stillness here, calm rightness. I half-expected Pandolfo to play with his muscular drive, as he often does in his Forqueray set. But no, he plays with remarkable restraint and grace.

And, in the other 2/3 of the music, Alessandrini is the star here. These really are 2/3 harpsichord pieces and only 1/3 viola da gamba, and I have to agree with the harpsichordist's approach to really enjoy a recording of these. He does it. On the long sustained notes he simply plays the note and trusts the listener's ear to carry it through, rather than filling the quietness with noisy trills to keep the pitches going. He does ornament here and there, but it always sounds vocally conceived and spontaneous rather than contrived. It's beautiful, and never overdone. I needn't have worried so much.

I have both the Koopman/Savall recordings, and (as I mentioned) at least a dozen others. But this one by Alessandrini and Pandolfo is the one I listen to most for joy. It's as if they're singing their lines with the greatest of ease.

The filler of Pandolfo's solo rendition of 1011/995 is also gorgeous. I haven't bothered to compare it closely with his own remake (in the cello suites set). I don't care to compare it with anything, I just listen to it for itself and marvel in the beauty of the playing.

Riccardo Nughes

wrote (December 30, 2002):<< - Sonatas for viola da gamba and harpsichord with Paolo Pandolfo and Rinaldo Alessandrini (Harmonia Mundi 1955218, a midprice 2002 reissue) >>
< I've had this for a couple months, but I don't think I or anyone else have mentioned this disc all year. >I bought it this year and it became my "reference" recording (even if I'm not convicted by the Pandolfo transcription). Really great playing from Alessandrini here.

Matthew Neugebauer

wrote (December 31, 2002):
[To Riccardo Nughes] Just wondering-what instrument does Pandolfo play in this recording?

wrote (January 7, 2003):
During the recent discussion about best recordings of the year, several people mentioned a recording of the Gamba Sonatas. Could someone plese remind me which one it is? Some of my email files became corrupt and i lost a bunch of messages. I know this recording is a very recent release, perhaps even not yet released in North America. I had it ordered at Tower but they cancelled the order.

I would really appreciate this information if someone remembers what recording it is.

Thanks!

Bradley Lehman

wrote (January 7, 2003):
[To Alpha Walker] R. Alessandrini and P Pandolfo. It's a budget priced reissue from Harmonia Mundi. I saw it for $5.98 again a few days ago at the local shop where I bought mine.

wrote (January 31, 2003):
I recently came across a recording of the Bach gamba sonatas on classicalarchives.com in which the keyboard instrument is an organ. Does anyone know what merit this practice has from a historical perspective?

Has anyone heard a similar rendition and if, what are your opinions?

Thanks for the input.

Donald Satz

wrote (January 31, 2003):
[To Julian Sguera] I don't know what recording Julian is referring to, but I have one on organ from Sony Vivarte; the performers are Anner Bylsma on cello piccolo and Bob van Asperen on a trunk organ.

In a sense, the question of the merit of using an organ in the Gamba Sonatas is no more applicable than the merit of using a harpsichord. I know of another recording of these Sonatas on BIS that uses a tangent piano.

There apparently isn't any firm evidence concerning the intent or instructions of Bach. In Bylsma's liner notes, he comments that BWV 1027 was in its original form likely for two violins and bass continuo, BWV 1028 was a trio sonata for organ that later was arranged for gamba and harpsichord, and BWV 1029 an orchestral piece given its similarity to the 3rd Brandenburg Concerto.

As Bylsma goes to pains to point out, the larger issue concerns musicality with Bylsma feeling that the organ does the best job of insuring a good balance among the three voices.

Having heard these works with harpsichord, tangent piano, and trunk organ, I find that each is appropriate depending on the artistry of the performer. I didn't care for the Bylsma disc, but it has nothing to do with the use of organ - Bylsma just isn't energetic enough for my tastes.

Julian Sguera

wrote (January 31, 2003):
[To Donald Satz] Thank you Donald for your insightful comments. The recording I was referring to is on the website classicalarchives.com and the gamba player is named Kirill Rodin. If you are a member you can download the recordings in mp3 format. If not, I think you can stream them. I think it's a very good site for those not too familiar with classical music to gain exposure. I like it because there are many works from little known composers that are presented as MIDI files, so I can check out a piece before I invest the money for a recording, and also expose myself to music I haven't heard before. Thanks again.

Viola da gamba sonatas BWV 1027-9

Bradley Lehman

wrote (June 23, 2004):
Leila Batarseh wrote:< Thanks Johan, these are good suggestions for me too, because I only have one recording each of these. And I've been wondering about that Perl/Behringer disc because I'm not so thrilled with my gamba sonatas (Pandolfo and Alessandrini) so I'd be happy to have another. >Some of my favorites are by Dreyfus/Haugsand, W Kuijken/Leonhardt, ter Linden/Bouman (in the MAK boxed set), and the two sets by Savall/Koopman. Not sure if all of those are still available. Those, and Bylsma playing micro-cello with van Asperen at the organ; and Wispelwey's set with various accompaniments and other transcriptions. And, of course, the totally off-the-wall rendition by Rose/Gould: a riveting and pointillistic remake of the music, a must-hear (although it has nothing at all to do with Baroque styles)...delightful. And Pablo Casals with Baumgartner.

But, I do like Pandolfo/Alessandrini very much, and frankly I listen to that one now more than the others. Alessandrini grabs me from the first note by not playing a trill, and I find his phrasing throughout the performance captivating (Pandolfo being very good, too...). Given that these pieces are 2/3 harpsichord and only 1/3 viola da gamba, go with a harpsichordist whose playing you like.... Plus, it's interesting to compare Pandolfo's filler of his solo suite transcription with his later remake of all of them, for Glossa.

Don't miss Dreyfus' written analysis of 1029 in his book Bach and the Patterns of Invention, chapter "The Status of a Genre". He shows especially how Bach has blended the Italian and French styles by superimposing them.

Another nice recording of 1027, but probably long gone, was the one by the Aulos Ensemble (with Richard Taruskin playing viola da gamba). They arranged it together with Bach's own remake (1039, for two flutes), having the viola da gamba play its line of 1027 and a flute play the other one, and then cello and harpsichord playing continuo from the 1039 figures. The difference of timbre and octave here really helps the lines to stand out from one another, clearly. That set inspired my college roommate to make his own arrangement that we played on one of his recitals, on guitar and harpsichord: loads of fun.

There's yet another arrangement of this same piece (sonata in G, 1027/39) from the Bach circle: for solo organ. It was arranged by one of Bach's pupils or sons, I don't remember the details exactly. I don't remember ever seeing or hearing a recording of that, yet, either; anybody? The score is in A-R Editions volume 69 of "Recent Researches in the Music of the Baroque Era" series, published c1992. The ISBN is 0895792699 (looking it up from the catalog of the library where I saw it). As I recall from a quick read-through some years ago, it's a pretty straightforward transcription simply giving the two flute parts to manuals and the bass to the pedals...nothing exceptional (except for being good music to begin with, of course).

Leila Batarseh

wrote (June 23, 2004):
[To Bradley Lehman] The problem with you, Brad, is that you're always doubling my list of cds to investigate! Seriously, thanks for all these suggestions, I didn't know about a bunch of them. I acquired the MAK box a couple of months ago but I haven't had a chance yet to listen to everything in it, and I'd actually forgotten the gamba sonatas were in there. I'll be sure to go back to the Pandolfo/Alessandrini set again too. It was one of the first baroque recordings I bought when I got interested in this stuff a few years ago, and it may very well be one of those things that I just wasn't ready for yet. It does take awhile to learn how to listen.

Hille Perl - viola da gamba

Jan Hanford

wrote (August 22, 2004):
I just got a lovely recording by Hille Perl:

"... per la viola da gamba"
on Deutsche Harmonia Mundi 1999

She plays solo cello suite BWV 1011 which is truly amazing on the viola da gamba. Also included are Trio Suite BWV 1025 and Viola Da Gamba Sonata BWV 1029. She plays with other musicians that include baroque lute, double harp, violin and viola da gamba continuo.

The lack of harpsichord is a nice change; using other instruments for continuo creates a consistenly mellow sound. It also sets this recording apart since there are so many of these works, and so many that sound the same.

Highly recommended.

Matthew Neugebauer

wrote (August 23, 2004):
Jan Hanfordwrote:< and Viola Da Gamba Sonata BWV 1029. >doesn't this have a written-out keyboard part? How was this managed without a keyboard?

Jan Hanford

wrote (August 23, 2004):
[To Matthew Neugebauer] The harpsichord part appears to be shared between the violin and second viola da gamba, with the baroque lute and double harp filling in as continuo. It's great.

Matthew Neugebauer

wrote (August 23, 2004):
[To Jan Hanford] hmm sounds interesting!

Michele Bisset

wrote (August 23, 2004):
[To Matthew Neugebauer] Bach's music lends it self so well to innovative arrangments, my self and a friend are working on some arrangements for cello and lute which sound quite well.

Bradley Lehman

wrote (August 23, 2004):
[To Jan Hanford, in response to her original message] Samples: Amazon.de

Looks like an album I should pick up sometime; thanks for mentioning it. But the keyboard parts are 2/3 of the music! To do the opposite arrangement here, why doesn't somebody simply keep the keyboard and give the string part to a separate player on another keyboard? That's basically what one of Bach's students did with the G major sonata 1027 for vdg/hpsi, onto the two manuals and pedal of an organ or a pedal harpsichord....

Brad Lehman (fond of pulling single lines out of organ pieces and giving them to the trumpet)

Roy Johansen

wrote (August 23, 2004):
[To Bradley Lehman] --But it should make for a very interesting voice separation (not that the cello/harpsichord sonatas are among the hardest to "decipher", even in their original form). Wouldn't it be kind of like Joel Spiegelman's Goldbergs, which, however "perverted", I know that you like, Brad?

I haven't heard the Perl recording, but your posts certainly made me curious about it.

Equally perverted,
Roy

Sonatas for viola da gamba

Paul Dirmeikis

wrote (October 9, 2004):
I'm listening right now to the 3 Sonatas for viola da gamba by Bylsma and van Asperen (Sony Vivarte SK 45945), that I borrowed at my public library. It's the first time I hear an organ instead of a harpichord in this work (in the booklet, it's called a "trunk organ"). It's amazing how beautiful it sounds ! I find the marriage between the two instruments much more moving, intimate and harmonious than with a harpsichord.

Does someone know if the 6 Sonatas for violin have ever been recorded with an organ instead of a harpichord ?

Gabriel Jackson

wrote (October 9, 2004):
Paul Dirmeikis writes:"Does someone know if the 6 Sonatas for violin have ever been recorded with an organ instead of a harpichord ?"On John Holloway and Davitt Moroney's recording of violin sonatas (Virgin Veritas) they use an organ in the two sonatas with continuo (BWV 1021 and 1023) but harpischord in the violin and keyboard sonatas (BWV1014-1019)

Charles Francis

wrote (October 9, 2004):
[To Gabriel Jackson] Thank you for this! Samples can be found at:Amazon.de

I am not unsurprised that a keyboard player of Moroney's stature should step outside the box. Moreover Disk 1, Number 5, for example, has obvious advantages on the organ. Of course, the same can also be said for certain pieces of the Well Tempered Clavier.

Bach composed the 3 Sonatas for VDGB and Harpsichord - BWV 1027 - 1029 ***, which added a remarkable delightedness and beauty to the VDGB lovers. To my modest knowledge and as far as I could recall, the VDGB has seldom been employed in JSB vocal works.

I wonder if Bach deliberately ignored this rich and versatile instrument or, whether it did not "match" with the orchestration of his Cantatas, Passions and Oratorios and hence in had been put in the back."------------------
Somehow I missed this post. Mr. Kaufman apparently does not understand that the Cello was not a common instrument and some cast doubt that it existed at that time but was instead the Gamba. That being true; Bach did write for the Gamba in fact there are sonatas, and cantatas in which he uses it. The Romantics would have us to believe otherwise in their vulgarly loud brazen ways. Many a Gamba was rebuilt into Celli when the preference for Celli, which have greater carrying power than Gambas, became the rage Just as many a Viola d'amour was converted into a simple Viola when it's players got tired of the failure of it's tuning mechanizms.

Unfortunately the Romantics have spread much ignorance and distortions about about the Baroque age in their misconceptions, self-grandizement, thier arrogant snobbishness and presumptiousness of their superior music literacy so that we hear Albert Schweitzer and others writing more from their imaginations than from actual fact. We hear from this age that the Harpsichord was an inferior instrument and that Bach wrote for the Piano as he also wrote for the Piano. Those of us who know better do not buy that but try to sell that to a rabid Glenn Gould fan and you will starve.

The facts are these: The Harpsichord was not an inferior instrument and managed to survived in Spain long after it was forgotten and thrown into the fires of the French Revolution as a hated symbol of the Aristocrazy.

Even Wanda Landowska was very confused along with Pleyel when she resurrected the Harpsichord to it's present status. The modern Harpsichord is more like the pre-1780 instrument than Landowska's Pleyel. I have played those kind of instruments and they certainly are no fun. I recently was in Savannah, Georgia at Christ Church (famous Church that John Wesley was Priest of) and had the pleasure of playing their Sabathil---which is just as easy to play as any other keyboard instrument. It is now going on some 40 years and still in the pristine shape it arrrive at Christ Church.

The Harpsichord is in fact along with the Clavichord an ideal home instrument for those living in apartments with thin walls as it seemed that Beethoven was always winding up with. While the piano certainly can put out FFF sounds but it does not blend well with Orchestra or other instruments as the Harpsichord does.

Bach never saw or heard of the Piano until he was almost completely blind when he visited Potsdam and he certainly never played a Piano until perhaps then. Shortly after this visit to see and hear Pianos that his son took him to see; Bach had surgery on his eyes again and died. He died from the surgery and medical practices of that time not old age as commonly thought and for you Americans out there George Washington died the from the same thing---they bled him to death. Bach may have been aware that the Piano existed in Italy but it was only around 1750 that they began to become common.

Likewise for the Cello except that the Cello was in existence in Italy supposedly from around 1600 onward which puts it into Bach's life time--if we can believe what we read about it. I suspect that the Amati and other Celli that have survived were really Gambas at one time that have been re-worked to make them into Celli. Celli were the exception, in it's early days, to be found in an orchestral group. The Gamba was the workhorse of the Orchestra/Sring section just as the Blockflute was for the flute section with the modern flute (Flauto traverso) rarely appearing.

The Cello took over the Gambas role around 1750 with Haydn, the Esterhazy's and the Classical age as one of it's chief propnents in Europe. Like the Harpsichord and Clavichord the Gamba is a nice home instrument for those living in apartment spaces and does not have the loudness or carrying power of the Cello---which is what attracted the romantics and the Classicists to the Cello. The Classicist did not kill the Gamba entirely (the Romantics did)---it survived in the form or the Baryton which was played by Prince Esterhazy for which Haydn wrote a very long list of almost unplayed works today.

The parts for Gamba and Cello were in the beginning not very interesting. They plodded along until Haydn began making better use of the Cello.

The same happened to the double bass which was originally the Violone. The Violone had just about as much power as the Gamba and did not try to take over the ensemble as does the Modern Contrabass. If you have ever heard Bach played with the modern Contrabasse; you will note the lugubriousness of the sounds that seem to poison the ensemble with this sound and muddies the waters so to speak because of it's tendency to take over the emsemble no matter how softly it is played. Between using the Contrabasse and doing without it in my ensembles---I will choose to leave it out. However, if I have a real honest to goodness Violone ----I might allow it.

The Violone had nothing to play except what the Gambas played. This practice continued until the Contrabasse took over the Gamba's role. Even then it still plodded along with it's rather boring bass. That all changed when the Romantics took over. Beethoven has what for that age was some shocking parts for the Contrabass--they sang solo and they also had very intresting parts ---no more the sleepy plodding along.

BWV 1027 [was: BWV 1014 - 1019 with organ]

Thomas Braatz

wrote (July 17, 2007):
Bradley Lehman wrote:>>Don't miss the classic 1990 recording of the three viola da gamba sonatas, BWV 1027-1029, with Anner Bylsma playing violoncello piccolo and Bob van Asperen playing organ!<<Again, there is virtually no doubt that Bach, at the end of his life, intended these to be played by a viola da gamba and harpsichord, possibily because he had a very good viola da gamba player at his disposal. We even have an autograph set of parts for BWV 1027 with his own title "Sonata à Cembalo è Viola da Gamba" [note which instrument is placed first!]

Nevertheless, Bach experts have come to the tentative conclusion that, although Bach wrote this music down (the original score is missing) sometime during the 1740s, we have evidence of its earlier existence (or at least some of the mvts.)in the form of a trio sonata for 2 traversi and continuo (BWV 1039) not autograph, possibly dated 1726 based on the watermark involved but there is yet another version as an organ trio (Anhang II, BWV 1027/1a,2a,4a)! Most likely this music was first composed for yet another combination of instruments in the Köthen period. One look at the opening of BWV 1027/1 with the harpsichord holding onto a long dotted whole note for 18 (or 6 very) slow beats makes quite clear that the choice of the harpsichord with probably the only option being to play a very long trill on this note is not the best choice for this note (and this opening of the mvt.) which could be played much more expressively on a string or wind instrument. As an instrumental trio with a violin playing one of the flute parts from BWV 1039, a cello playing the viola da gamba part from BWV 1027) and the keyboard instrument using the continuo part from BWV 1039, this music can possibly sound better than the final version (BWV 1027) that Bach had copied out late in his l. Unfortunately we have no evidence for the original orchestration of this trio, but under the circumstances and knowing that Bach did have a yet earlier version than any of those that do exist, we can keep trying to find out by experimentation which way this music might sound even better than it already does. The notion that Bach's final version of any work that he returned to repeatedly is the best is not one that I can easily agree with. This, of course, depends on the type of music it is: is it for solo keyboard or is it for an ensemble. There are numerous instances with Bach's cantatas where the final version in a repeat performance taking place years after its composition is a step down from the original conception. However, even with such a step down, Bach's music still remains great music, a fact of which Bach must have been aware as he attempted to salvage the possibility of a repeat performance of one of his works by taking into account the talents of the musicians with whom he worked.

Despite John's splendid example in leading the discussion on the works for solo violin,nobody -alas! -seems to have come forward to introduce the non-vocal works to be discussed during this coming month . This makes me wonder how many of the 800 people who receive these mailings know these works for viola da gamba and harpsichord. In such a large number there are bound to be some who know these works intimately, have performed or studied them and many, many who have a far greater knowledge and understanding of the music than I have. But I suspect that there is also a fair number who may know the more celebrated works of Bach - the Brandenburg concertos, St Matthew Passion, Mass in B Minor , most frequently performed cantatas , the double violin concerto etc -but have never explored or heard in performance such works as these.

I strongly urge all those who haven't heard these works to give themselves the serious delight of getting to know this marvellous music in the course of this month.I am certain you will find that it will be time amply rewarded. Bach seems incapable of writing music whose interest can be exhausted. These sonatas for viola da gamba and harpsichord may not be as well known as some other works of Bach,but they are in no way inferior or second rate.No matter how much I listen to these works I never cease to find fresh and increasing interest and delight. There are many recordings available- I found a dozen or more on Naxos Music Library and a wide range on emusic. I would recommend particularly Jordi Savall /Ton Koopman and Paolo Pandolfo/Rinaldo Alessandrini as outstanding recordings where the evident rapport between the musicians leads to memorable music making , but to judge from what I have sampled on Naxos the music can succeed with a wide variety of approaches.

Some people may find they already know the adagio from BWV 1029 : it was used in the film Truly, madly, deeply where it is the melancholy theme played on the cello by Juliet Stephenson's dead lover. When people at the time the film came out asked me what the music was, I remember thinking that this was music that only had to be heard to make an impact.If the discussion on this list leads some people to get to know this music, something worthwhile will be achieved.

There is plenty to discuss since there is much speculation and little certainty about these works. They seem to have been recast in Leipzig from earlier works composed for other instruments.BWV 1027 is a revision of BWV 1039 for two flutes and continuo. This in turn may be based on earlier work for two violins. BWV 1028 may be a reworking of an earlier trio sonata for flute and violin -or else an original work for bass viol -or perhaps the third movement had vocal origins. BWV 1029 may come from an earlier Trio Sonata or some have suggested a double violin concerto now lost.

According to the Oxford Composer Companion ' the individual movements display remarkable diversity of structure and character'. In many ways they resemble trio sonatas which were the subject of discussion a few months ago, and they would certainly repay close study and discussion.

I have no special knowledge or expertise to offer and this note makes no claim to be an introduction but I would be very interested to learn more about the origins of these works and their present form. I am curious also about some of the recordings -Martha Argerich and Mischa Maisky have recorded them (on piano and cello) -gifted musicians but not the first names you would associate with Bach -Glenn Gould also - and some of the arrangements for other instruments -oboe, guitar, cello, trumpet etc.There seems a wealth of possible topics for discussion.

To quote John Dryden :"But enough of this : there is such a variety of game springing up before me that I am distracted in my choice and know not which to follow.'Tis sufficient to say according to the proverb, that here is God's plenty."

wrote (May 1, 2009):
[To John Pike] Agreed. I am one of the several hundred people on this list who do not know these sonatas. I think I have one recording. I am going to look for it and then check out E Music.

The monthly discussion is a great excuse to listen to music you don't have.

For those who do know these sonatas it would be helpful if you recommended some recordings.

Francis Browne

wrote (May 2, 2009):Gamba Sonatas BWV 1027-9

Anne (Nessie) Russell wrote :"For those who do know these sonatas it would be helpful if you recommended some recordings."I did mention two but only the Jordi Savall / Ton Koopman seems to be easily available . The one I would recommend is their second recording on Alia Vox -available from eMusic. The Penguin Guide says :" there is a depth of express the feeling here combined with an intimate rapport between the two players that gives an effect of eavesdropping on live musicmaking of the highest calibre. The recording is resonant but full, firm and clearly focused. A clear first choice ."

Lindsay Kemp in Gramophone is more detailed :

"Like Bach's violin sonatas, these are effectively trio sonatas in which the right hand of the harpsichord has a melodic role on an equal footing with the gamba, and it is in this respect that the rapport between these players is best shown. One of the delights of this disc, indeed, is the way each plays the same melodic material slightly differently according to the nature of his instrument. Savall's long notes are drawn out with impeccable crescendos, while Koopman, unable to do the same on the harpsichord, adorns his with lovingly shaped trills and arabesques. Similarly, Koopman's idiosyncratic habit of beginning a long and potentially mechanical-sounding trill at startlingly slow speed and then accelerating with an impressive iron control, is not needed by Savall. Together, however, they conjure performances whose sheer rightness and creative warmth - from the concentrated emotion of the slower movements to the busy dialogues of the faster ones - make the music sound invigoratingly fresh. And as so often with older and wiser second recordings, there is a relaxed freedom here, compared to which the earlier version, fine though it is, sounds crucially stilted."

I hope to listen to more recordings on Naxos Music Library and comment later this month.

Julian Mincham

wrote (May 2, 2009):Gamba Sonatas BWV 1027-9 : Still Not an introduction

[To Francis Browne] My eye caught this topic particularly because I have been learning these works (the keyboard parts that is) over the last couple of weeks. They are spendidly inventive works, quidemanding technically and musically but very rewarding to study. Bach seems to have followed the same pattern as elsewhere by creating a mixture of 'modern' three movement sonata forms (e.g. that in G minor) and the four movement--slow, fast, slow fast pattern of the trio sonata. This similarity to other chamber music sets of six would, perhaps indicate that there were originally six of these sonatas as well, possibly split up and three of them lost when JSB died. (I haven't got around to looking up any references to this matter--others may well find them and post) ?As to recordings that in the Bach Classic set (Proud and Dornenburg) is to my mind very listenable (that CD also contains a performance of the original prelude and fugue in Am from which the massive outer movements of the triple concerto for flute, violin and harpsichord were later developed).

As with a number of the flute and violin sonats with keyboard, Bach generally creates three lines of equal importance, one for each hand of the keyboard player and one for the gamba. However he also makes use of some double stopping (last movement of the D major) and some very idiomatic and imaginative keyboard writing in the middle section of the same movement. The slow third movement of that sonata, in B minor, is, to my mind the most stunningly beautiful of the 5 slow movements in the set.

The Gm is the largest and most impressive of the three despite being one movement less. The opening is highly reminisient of the first movement of Brandenburg three--thought there the key was ?in G major not minor. Not only that but in the third movement Bach employs a harmonic progression from just after the?double barline of the?second? movement of the Brandenburg, a possible pointer to the fact that he looked back over the concerto scores when composing these three fine chamber works --from 22 bars before the end for those with scores.?

Don't ignore the left hand keyboard lines when listening to these works (a little subdued in the Bach Classics CD) because?they are?full of interest and invention, nowhere more apparent than in the last movements of each sonata.?

I'd be interested in comments from cellists who play these works on the modern instruments and how they?lie under the fingers.

Anne (Nessie Russell)

wrote (May 2, 2009):
Francis Browne wrote:< I did mention two but only the Jordi Savall / Ton Koopman seems to be easily available . The one I would recommend is their second recording on Alia Vox -available from eMusic. >Yes, thank you. I have found it and saved it. I will download it when I get in later today.

Also on E Music is BWV 1027 on oboe and harpsichord played by Robin Canter and Paul Nicholson. I have this saved as well.

Harry W. Crosby

wrote (May 2, 2009):
To Anne and all, I will not be the slightest bit bashful in recommending the Jonathan Manson/Trevor Pinnock performances on the Avie label.

I have owned and enjoyed Boothby/Ad-El, and particularly Quintana/Frisch, and listened to Savall/Koopman and Ghielmi/?, but certainly can say that at this point in time, my favorite is that of the afore-mentioned Jonathan Manson and Trevor Pinnock. Theirs, to my ear, is strong, satisfying, and unmannered. I hope many of you will at least have a chance to hear this and express opinions!

Bradley Lehman

wrote (May 2, 2009):< For those who do know these sonatas it would be helpful if you recommended some recordings. >
I'll mention some others later, but for me the one on Naxos works very well. Aapo Häkkinen and Mikko Perkola.

Ed Myskowski

wrote (May 3, 2009):
Harry W. Crosby wrote:>I will not be the slightest bit bashful in recommending the Jonathan Manson/Trevor Pinnock performances on the Avie label. <EM replies:
Harry, bashful? He has been known to make even me blush, if that counts for anything. Brad and Julian also recommended recordings, which I have or intend to pursue.

I add for additional consideration the performance by Boston Museum Trio (local folks, and friends) from 1994, on Centaur (not listed on BCW?). From the booklet notes:
<The G major Sonata, BWV 1027, is itself a transcription for viola da gamba and harpsichord of the Sonata for Two Flutes and Basso Continuo, BWV 1039. Bach had only to assign the basso continuo part to the right hand, and to transpose the lower flute part down an octave for the viola da gamba. As a riposte to Bachs procedure, The Boston Muaeum Trio have made retro-transcriptions of these three gamba sonatas by assigning the right hand of the harpsichord part to the violin, and relegating the keyboard to its traditional basso continuo function.> (notes signed by Paul Guglietti, not a member of the trio)

I found that statement rather dense on first reading, but quite helpful with a bit of thought. I hope you all agree.

Despite its age, this CD is a recent acquisition for me, and I have not yet listened to it. I plan to provide some comments, clearly not objective. I am interested in thoughts on the validity of the retro-transcriptions in presenting the music. It strikes me as an interesting way to elaborate on Bachs methods in making use of the available troops, if not necessarily his advancement of keyboard complexity.

Johan Kakkens

wrote (May 5, 2009):
[To Ed Myskowski] An album that I can strongly recommend is the one recorded by Guido Balestracci and Blandine Rannou. The cd cover alone is worth the price but playing, sound and interpretation are all cristal clear! http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NVP/Rannou.htm#H2

Last year I had the opportunity to see a couple of the gamba sonatas played by Wieland Kuijken and Gustav Leonhardt in Belgium, a real pleasure to listen to but of course the concert has not been recorded.

Ed Myskowski

wrote (May 5, 2009):Gamba sonatas, BWV 1027-9 (correction)

The correct description of Bachs transcription, from the booklet notes to the Bostom Museum Trio recording on Centaur is:

<Bach had only to assign the basso continuo part to the left hand of the harpsichordist, and the upper flute part to the right hand, and to transpose the lower flute part down an octave for the viola da gamba.>

A key section (indicated by asterisks) was omitted in my previous post, repeated here, with the intent of clarity. I submit this correction primarily for accuracy in the archives, but I also apologize for any confusion to current readers.

<The G major Sonata, BWV 1027, is itself a transcription for viola da gamba and harpsichord of the Sonata for Two Flutes and Basso Continuo, BWV 1039. Bach had only to assign the basso continuo part to the right hand, and to transpose the lower flute part down an octave for the viola da gamba.>

David Glenn Lebut Jr.

wrote (May 5, 2009):
[To Ed Myskowski] Actually, Ed, you have it backwards. The Gamba sonata was the original and the Trio sonata was the transcription (a transcription nowadays in serious doubt as to being by Bach, current thinking is that it was by his second-eldest son Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach). This is not the case (doubtful authenticity, that is) for the one genuine transcription by Bach of this work (namely the Organ Trio BWV 1027a).

Ed Myskowski

wrote (May 5, 2009):
David Glenn Lebut Jr. wrote:>Actually, Ed, you have it backwards. The Gamba sonata was the original and the Trio sonata was >the transcription (a transcription nowadays in serious doubt as to being by Bach, current thinking is that it was by his second-eldest son Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach). <

Could you cite some sources? In my original post, I noted that I was citing booklet notes by Paul Guglietti accompanying the 1994 Centaur recording by the Boston Museum Trio. Francis Browne, in his (Not an) I, also suggested the same relation, that BWV 1027 is a transcription for gamba and harpsichord of BWV 1039. This is consistent with the BWV of 1998, at least as I read it (quickly, and without German ability - correction invited). Finally, in the program notes (published on-line) to a 2008 concert performance at UC Davis:
<J.S. Bach scholars have wondered for many years about the origins of his three sonatas for viola da gamba and obligato harpsichord. It has been thought that they were composed while he was employed at the court of Cöthen between 1717 and 1723. During the six years he spent at this music-loving court Bach composed much of his instrumental chamber music. Current thinking now has placed these sonatas in the next decade, circa 1736, at a time when he may have been surrounded by some remarkable and virtuosic players of this instrument. Carl Friedrich Abel and Ludwig Christian Hesse were among them, both admired for their refinement, proficiency, and taste.
Bach’s viola da gamba Sonata in G Major (BWV 1027) is almost certainly a transcription of a trio sonata for two flutes and basso continuo (BWV 1039). For this evening’s concert, we have continued in the great tradition of transcription, presenting it as a trio sonata for viola da gamba, violin, and basso continuo.>

Note that I have no personal expertise or opinion on the transcription (or not) of BWV 1027, I am merely citing the informal (except for BWV) reports of others. I also point out that the trio performance at UC Davis is consistent with the Boston Museum Trio recording from fourteen years earlier, which began this discussion detail.

Coincidentally, that recording also includes the violin sonata BWV 1021, which according to Guglietti in the booklet notes, provided the basso line for the Trio Sonata, BWV 1038: <[it is] likely that the young Carl Philipp Emanuel made the trio version as an exercise for his father>.

Ed Myskowski

wrote (May 6, 2009):
At this point, I wish I had never gone down this path. It was my error to post my correction to a BRML post on BCML. David Glenn LeBut Jr. responded on BCML, but now I am uncertain if he saw the original post. His response contradicted my understanding of the relations among various versions of the same music, to which I responded, still on BCML.

Now back on track (BRML), thanks to the moderator, my understanding follows, significantly different from Davids. I emphasize, I invite correction, I have no personal investment or expertise on this matter, and I have consulted only secondary sources (other than BWV, 1998). My original motivation was to reply to Francis Brownes kind Non Introduction, while giving a mention to a recording which includes a couple friends, as well as some provocative ideas.

(1) The first compostition was BWV 1039, trio sonata for two flutes (trv) and harpsichord, probably before 1720.

(3) Someone outside the family (Korner, I believe) transcribed movements 1, 2, and 4 to create a trio sonata for organ, sometimes (but not in BWV?) designated BWV 1027a in the literature.

Francis Browne

wrote (May 6, 2009):
I have listened to some more recordings of the Gamba sonatas. As Julian pointed out, John Dornenburg and Malcolm Proud give excellent performances on Brilliant Classics - generally slower in tempi than Savall/Koopman but very enjoyable.

The Boston Museum Trio, which Ed has mentioned,are available on Naxos Musical Library. They play the works as trio sonatas and this works very well. This is also enjoyable music making.

If anyone is allergic to harpsichords and period instruments, they might be interested in the viola/piano version by Yuko Inoue and Kathron Sturrock.It is easy to transpose these sonatas for viola and Inoue is a very accomplished player who is excellently accompanied on piano by Sturrock. Together they produce a beautiful sound which seems smoother , less angular than most versions. Just occasionally they seem to miss some of the energy and verve in the music but most people will listen with pleasure to these performances. The CD also includes a fine performance (on viola) of the chaconne from BWV 1004.

Yoël L. Arbeitman

wrote (May 8, 2009):
Although there is a plethora of recordings of much Bach "stuff" these days, many items will, it seems, never be officially transfered to CD (CDs are probably a matter of the last generation anyway).

Recently via the upload I was able to enjoy this ancient artifact:

Here's a rare opportunity to sample John Barbirolli's work as a cellist. Here he plays Bach's sonata in G, BWV 1027 (first of the three originally for viola da gamba), accompanied at the piano by Ethel Bartlett, recorded July 1, 1929 by Columbia for the National Gramophonic Society and released on NGS 133 and 134.

Anyway usable for any eventual discography and rather amazing that this man was making still famed Mahler recordings in the mid-latish 1960s.

Yoël L. Arbeitman

wrote (May 12, 2009):
Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote:< Recently via the upload I was able to enjoy this ancient artifact:
Here's a rare opportunity to sample John Barbirolli's work as a cellist. Here he plays Bach's sonata in G, BWV 1027 (first of the three originally for viola da gamba), accompanied at the piano by Ethel Bartlett, recorded July 1, 1929 by Columbia for the National Gramophonic Society and released on NGS 133 and 134. >
In addition to this download which I can enjoy and the couple of CDs I have on either Viola da Gamba or piccolo cello, I notice that I have four LPs of these works which I cannot enjoy. I keep them as Petrarch (wasn't it?) kept his Greek Homer in the hope of absorption by some means.
They are:

Gamba/harpsichord: Nikolaus Harnoncourt/Herbert Tachezi Telefunken (March/April, 1968). This LP includes additionally Trio Sonata in G major for 2 flutes and continuo; BWV 1039, the original format of the first Gamba sonata. The flutists are Franz Brüggen and Leopold Stastny. Anyway I thought I would share that although I have NO current opinions on these recordings which at one time brought me much pleasure.

Anne (Nessie Russell)

wrote (May 28, 2009):
We are almost at the end of May. There has not been much discussion about these sonatas.

I took suggestions people made earlier this month and found many on EMusic and downloaded samples. I already had a recording by Jordi Savall and Ton Koopman. I like this one the best of all the regular recordings.

The disc I enjoyed the most was by Robin Canter on oboe and Paul Nicholson on harpsichord.

Even though we do not have a lot of discussion on this list I find the monthly topic a good excuse to look up music I rarely or never listen to.

Bradley Lehman

wrote (May 28, 2009):
On the sonatas for viola da gamba and harpsichord, at the top of my stack right now I have Perkola/Hakkinen (already mentioned a few weeks ago) and Pandolfo/Alessandrini.

I listened to the one in the Brilliant Classics box, but didn't find much special to remark about in it.

And I went through several Casals performances again, without much enjoyment; I usualllike him, but his pianists didn't contribute the 2/3 of the presence that is their job in playing two melodic lines. They were too much in the background, both with interpretation and miking, as if they were merely accompanying a solo.

Rose/Gould give a weird trip, as usual. It's engaging and mostly lively. Some of the obvious splices bother me.

One thing I especially like about Alessandrini's performance is that he's content to play the long notes simply, instead of filling them up with trills to keep them sounding.

I hear these sonatas as harpsichord music that happens to have a third melodic line added to them.

Yoël L. Arbeitman

wrote (May 28, 2009):
Bradley Lehman wrote:
(after listing a bunch of recordings)< I hear these sonatas as harpsichord music that happens to have a third melodic line added to them. >

================
Anne and Brad just gave two reasons why lists (outside of ones where there is a non-musical or extra-musical interest)get very few participants.
(1) To say much of anything one needs a large collection of recordings of the given work and the developed sensitivity to hear or feel differences. I imagine that very few members have a large collection of most works. Or to say anything meaningful one needs to be a highly informed specialist. Again excludes most music-lovers.

In the end Brad hears two lines of harpsichord with some gamba melodic line for good measure. This interesting way of hearing brings to mind that, when I listened to the 5th VIOLIN and Keyboard sonata as played by Dubois and Maas some 15 days after my initial reaction to the 4th sonata, I heard gorgeous violin playing but barely any representation of the keyboard.

Bradley Lehman

wrote (May 28, 2009):
I wrote:< I hear these sonatas as harpsichord music that happens to have a third melodic line added to them. >...which comes not so much from listening to recordings, as from playing them from full score at the harpsichord. The harpsichordist's two hands each have 1/3 of the music to take care of.

Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote:< This interesting way of hearing brings to mind that, when I listened to the 5th VIOLIN and Keyboard sonata as played by Dubois and Maas some 15 days after my initial reaction to the 4th sonata, I heard gorgeous violin playing but barely any representation of the keyboard. >That's a recording from 1933, right? From the web samples I've heard, I was surprised that the piano has as much presence as it does, given the recording vintage...while the music could still stand to have more. And violin and piano certainly don't blend in the same way that a good harpsichord and a gut-strung Baroque violin (played with a light bow) do. Violin and piano tend to compete with one another....

I like the samples. Did Dubois/Maas record all six of those sonatas, or only the last three?

Anne (Nessie Russell)

wrote (May 28, 2009):
Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote:< Anne and Brad just gave two reasons why lists (outside of ones where there is a non-musical or extra-musical interest) get very few participants.
(1) To say much of anything one needs a large collection of recordings of the given work and the developed sensitivity to hear or feel differences. >If you had read my post carefully you would have found that I had one (1) recording of these sonatas before this discussion began. I mentioned that I downloaded some tracks from EMusic this month. This is a large collection of recordings?

Ed Myskowski

wrote (May 29, 2009):
Anne (Nessie) Russell wrote:>Even though we do not have a lot of discussion on this list I find the monthly topic a good excuse to look up music I rarely or never listen to.<I agree. An important point, and perhaps a bit of encouragement for the folks who kindly take the trouble to post the introductions. Aryeh in the past has encouraged people to write, even if only to say I listened to such and such and enjoyed it (or not). Francis has pointed out Apuleius, commenting on the ultimate beneficiary of a thoughtful (or even not so) post. Not to blunt that point by smacking it too often.

Ed Myskowski

wrote (May 29, 2009):
Anne (Nessie) Russell wrote (continuing the thread she began)>If you had read my post carefully you would have found that I had one (1) recording of these sonatas before this discussion began. I mentioned that I downloaded some tracks from EMusic this month. This is a large collection of recordings? <Not to overlook one of the original thoughts, which was that the monthly discusssion was the incentive to:
(1) Listen to your (1) recording.
(2) Access some additional ones.
(3) Post your reactions to the listening experience, to share with the rest of us.

I thank you for all of that. It adds to my enjoymjent of the music.

Ed Myskowski

wrote (May 29, 2009):
Bradley Lehman wrote:>(after listing a bunch of recordings) >EM:
I thought Brads comments to be concise, but better than a list. Details on request, to Brad? Give it a try.

I find any (!) comments on BCW, re recordings, helpful in making purchasing decisions. That is what got me here in the first place. I wish we had more of both comments and recordings. My advice: If you get Kuijken and Herreweghe to supplement your complete Brilliant Classics Bach Edition (mostly Leusink), you will have a nice sample of the listening spectrum. Gardiner next. Others (Rilling, Richter, H&L, etc.) for historic and/or specific performer interest are not likely to disappoint. Unless it is your nature to be disappointed.

BL:>I hear these sonatas as harpsichord music that happens to have a third melodic line added to them. <
EM:
The cellists are attacking, bows (and arrows?) in hand! The violinists (Dan Stepner) are retro-transcribing the trio sonata for a trio. The keyboard guys are trying to figure out if it is a percussion or melody instrument they are playing. Could it be both?

Zounds that way to me, ca. ECE09. Bach to the organ? Hammond B3 alive and playing on my block.

Santu de Silva

wrote (May 29, 2009):
[To Bradley Lehman] I've been re-listening to some of these recently, (also oboe and harpsichord sonatas), and I think part of the trouble is the recordings, which have a very distant balance on the harpsichord. Unfortunately, what I did was put a whole bunch of these on an mp3 player, and it's a little too much trouble to find out which recordings they are. Back in the seventies, they couldn't quite figure how to balance the harpsichord against the other instrument, I'm guessing, because they must have used huge harpsichords which were chosen to balance the chamber orchestra sound.

More recent recordings seem to have more reasonable balance choices, e.g. Podger/Pinnock, Moroney/somebody, etc, simply because they've got a wider variety of harpsichords to choose from.

Harry W. Crosby

wrote (May 30, 2009):
Well, all, if we are really invited to share our opinions of recordings and performances, I shall not be shy.

Since I am not a musician, I cannot make technical arguments for my choices in any comparison, but I can claim to have a personal vision of Bach's musical speech and of those who read it off the page with the inflections and expressiveness that best reflect my vision.

All I can ask anyone who might be interested is that they manage somehow to hear tperformances that I love. At best, they may find something to admire; at worst, they will know better where to pigeon-hole me!

Yoël L. Arbeitman

wrote (May 31, 2009):
Bradley Lehman wrote:< I wrote:
<< I hear these sonatas as harpsichord music that happens to have a third melodic line added to them. >>
<...which comes not so much from listening to recordings, as from playing them from full score at the harpsichord. The harpsichordist's two hands each have 1/3 of the music to take care of. > Sorry for my delayed response. Such are my internet list habits these days (nothing personal to list or person posting). Indeed I believe I indicated that one of the desiderata for making a meaningful contribution is being a specialist or having specialist knowledge. There is a small world out there of persons who appreciate this (or most genres of) "Classical Music" and of this small population only a fragment is musicologically informed. I am quite aware that, as a practicing musician with musicological interests, you are able to be aware of things that many of us are not.

Let me say that I do indeed also read Anne's posts and I am sorry if she felt any misunderstanding. I am quite aware of what she says of her own music habits. We each have his own way of enjoying this music.

Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote:<< This interesting way of hearing brings to mind that, when I listened to the 5th VIOLIN and Keyboard sonata as played by Dubois and Maas some 15 days after my initial reaction to the 4th sonata, I heard gorgeous violin playing but barely any representation of the keyboard. >>Bradley Lehman wrote:< That's a recording from 1933, right? From the web samples I've heard, I was surprised that the piano has as much presence as it does, given the recording vintage...while the music could still stand to have more. And violin and piano certainly don't blend in the same way that a good harpsichord and a gut-strung Baroque violin (played with a light bow) do. Violin and piano tend to compete with one another.... > Well, I thank you for the insight bc. playing Dubois/Mass back to back with a current Harpsichord/Violin recording is a disappointing experience precisely bc. on the modern recording the Harpsichord floods one at times.

< I like the samples. Did Dubois/Maas record all six of those sonatas, or only the last three? >I found this at Broinc. I like to sample off the beaten track items. I have no idea and I don't believe that Aryeh's discographies are beyond the vocal material at this point. I am surprised that with a population of over 800 here, others more informed don't respond.

Yoël L. Arbeitman

wrote (May 31, 2009):
Harry W. Crosby wrote:< Since I am not a musician, I cannot make technical arguments for my choices in any comparison, but I can claim to have a personal vision of Bach's musical speech and of those who read it off the page with the inflections and expressiveness that best reflect my vision. > I am reasonably sure, having participated in various music lists over much of the last decade, that what you say about your own personal vision applies reasonably so to all of us music-lovers who are not musicologically or even musically trained. But, in the end, I often find that experts respond to exactly what repels me (maybe too strong a word?) and often are repelled by what enchants me. We each, with due consideration to worthy suggestions of others, need to respond to our own hearing in listening to music.

< All I can ask anyone who might be interested is that they manage somehow to hear the performances that I love. At best, they may find something to admire; at worst, they will know better where to pigeon-hole me! > I fail, sorry, to understand how this is possible. None of us (with a rare exception) is going to buy all the many recordings of each Bach work, all the more so that each of us listens to other composers and other genres of music as well. The recordings are mostly copyright, so even if you wished, you cannot put them up on a website. Few of us have access to library type collections of all recordings. In the end most of us judge from the few recordings we have. Currently I find very little Bach on the radio, but a lot of everyone's recordings of Mahler. I do get a chance often to decide about numerous Mahler recordings from the radio but not Bach (occasionally something that TNT or the Bachfest plays will truly entice me and often it is already unavailable). Occasionally magic happens like with the Hilde Rössl-Majdan "Es ist vollbracht". The first request I made on Operashare was for that. There happened to be an odd (good sense) collector who had the Preinfalk Johannes-Passion (which I had searched for for years) and who was happy to send it to me. But there are not many Bach trading places for rarities as there are for opera.