Yeah, I see your point and I agree wholeheartedly. But I think what I'm trying to talk with that whole post is "virtual reality" in general. True enough, in our present time, video games are [i]no where even close [i]to what lucid dreaming is, so people don't see it as the same. But it is my belief that, as technology continues to develop exponentially, we will indeed have virtual reality worlds that stimulate all five senses and totally emerge you. The technology is already out there and being developed. I used the Oculus Rift as an example before, and there ya go. I think that it will get to the point where everyone will have there own little virtual world that they are god over. You know, like the Pixar movie, WALL-E. Despite it was a fun children's movie, I found that it had surprisingly profound insights on cultural development. And so I used that torture game as an example. People will question different forms of reality no matter what; especially when it comes to the virtual worlds I talked about. (I, too, enjoy violence in movies, games, and even lucid dreaming. I'm just talking about society in general, not my personal views. I think it's all good and fun. Except for the non-consensual sex bit. I'm not sure if I would be okay with that )

WALL-E is very intelligent, and is a great movie because children and adults mutually enjoy it and makes thinkers think!

I think it is absolutely possible to create a virtual reality with all your 5 senses and even beyond that with a sense of body, perspiration, and even hunger! You just need to fool the mind. When that happens, the world will change and everybody will experience what it is like to be in a vivid lucid dream, alternate reality, and have these same discussions that we lucid dreamers can't help, but bring up, like: what IS reality?

I've come to the conclusion that it all has to do with perception and our emotions are the key. Physical reality is nothing but waves. They mean nothing until you perceive it and give it meaning and have emotional attachment to objects and people. In fact some argue that life is a simulation, much like the MATRIX and it has already happened and we have been living in it this whole time. I mean if anything is possible, and it's only a matter of time, given that time is infinite, than it means it must have already happened. Perhaps even over and over again, and we are in a simulation within a simulation within a simulation......

Enough deep talk. Back to sex! I have thought about rape in a dream before. (Let's call it what it is.) But I never followed through with it. It just feels wrong and is more violent than sexual, and suits a bully, not a lover. I usually ask a dream-girl first about it, and I can be quite rude (things that would get a drink or open-palm thrown in my face!), but it is fun to break out of your shell. They sometimes deny me, but always seem flattered that I would even ask. I wished all girls were so easy to talk to and appreciated a polite forthrightness on the matter.....

Yeah, and I also think that it would be, in general, a more enjoyable experience if it was consensual, you know? And also, if they're my OWN dream characters, I wouldn't be able to help but think that I'm violating myself during the whole thing! So where am I, psychologically, at that point? But then again, you could make the argument that dream characters are even lower on the totem pole then inanimate objects. Seeing as DC's don't have any physical place in waking life. So couldn't it just be considered mental masturbation? I don't know, I'm very ... divided ... in my opinions. And yeah I know what you mean

-Is it ethical to kill or torture people in a lucid dream? What if you know the person you're killing in real life?-Is it ethical to have sex/ be intimate with a dream character? What if you have a girlfriend/boyfriend in real life? What if the sex isn't consensual? -Is it ethical to steal money or possessions from a dream character?-Is it ethical to possess a dream character (or use mind control. however you want to phrase it) and force them to do things they do not want to do?-Is it ethical to enslave dream characters?

When you answer the questions, try to come up with other ethical questions concerning lucid dreaming.

I believe that its okay to do whatever you wish in dreams but that being said, I do believe it can impact us spiritually and energetically by attracting like energies to us eg if we enjoyed raping someone in a dream, I believe we take that energy on more. Do it too much and you could end up being drawn more to doing it in real life. So I believe there could be psychological impacts on what you do too in dreams and certainly your thoughts carry spiritual repercussions.

If you are an ethical person (by that I mean someone with empathy) it is hard to do any of those things in a dream without repercussions in the dream or even waking up with guilt. Even if you know it is the perfect crime, you also know that you feel guilty and it can ruin the dream.

I agree with HAGART thou. Thou I believe its fine to do as you wish in dreams, Ive seen myself how my own ethics can come into play in LDs

eg during one LD I decided to just take "steal" as it was another's fridge, a banana (or it may of been a glass of milk) out of it. I ignored the DC in the kitchen with me as she's only a DC right..well yeah I thought there would be no reaction from her at all as I thought it was completely okay to do this in a dream, so didnt even think of it as being stealing by taking something out of someone elses dream fridge as I own everything in my own dreams dont I?).

To my shock when I opened the fridge door and went to take the banana/glass of milk out of her fridge, she spun around and sharply goes "What do you think you are doing!!!" She shocked me into a state where I was then trying to defend my action and told a lie to her. Now to doing that.. again lying goes against my morals... my nose then started to grow like pinocinno and to make matters worst, I then got my long nose stuck in a door while trying to get away from that DC.She took great enjoyment out of my pain and me being stuck there.

Anyway.. not a pleasant LD but a very interesting one, just cause I got hungry during a LD and decided to take a banana/milk out of a DCs fridge. I suggest for others to try this "taking" from others exercise if you do truely think it is okay to steal in a dream, ones subconsciousness obviously doesnt think it is such a good idea.

Goodness knows what would happen to me in my LD if I decided to try to rape some drop dead gorgious guy in a dream. (Police would probably show up and beat me to a pulp or something). Actually that idea now has me fascinated, how would my subconciousness respond??? Maybe I will try to rape some hunky DC just to find out.

It is interesting... The law enforcement in my dreams is legit. If I so much as steal ... a banana (like you did) ... they'd immediately have the house surrounded by dogs, helicopters, cars, sentry guns, you name it. Haha I've been shot to bits multiple times in LD's. I think this is because, in real life, I view law officials and enforcement as very admirable men and women and I look up to any form of law enforcer. I'm actually aspiring to be a judicial psychologist.

Of course all of it is ethical. None of it is real. Even torturing someone in a video game isn't unethical, you are not doing any harm to anyone else.

However, it is unethical of the video game developers to develop such a game, because you are doing harm to your mind and your well being by doing this kind of stuff. The ratings are there to protect you. So when you do stuff like that in a dream, I see no reason why anything you do is unethical, the characters are merely projections. Its like saying is it unethical to write a story about doing this stuff, only to burn the piece of paper.

"There is theoretical abstraction, and then there is true abstraction."

Thought-police show up in many forms. Always an authority figure. For you, the police, for me it is usually my own mother! (Freud would have a field day with that one!) I'm not psychotic, it is actually very common. I understand psychology and I am comfortable with admitting that. (It's actually kind of funny when you think about it.)

So two things:

Mental Masterbation. You'll stole my words. I was going to bring that up later when the time came. But that is EXACTLY what it is. (It's not dream porn. There is a difference.) That is a great way of putting it. And there is no shame in it, but there is also nothing to be gained and whenever it happens I wake up feeling like I wasted the dream and could have done more intellectually. Something worth writing in my dream journal. We all do it whether we admit it or not and there is no shame, but feels like a waste of a lucid dream when you could have done more. (Depends on your mood though).

To Tauni:

Funny story with the Fridge Pilfering Bananza!It doesn't matter what we do, dream characters feed on our guilt and emotions. I think that our emotions are paramount and controlling them is the key to controlling our dreams. (Just a theory). But we also don't want them to carry over in our waking lives either and need to keep them in check and never cross the line we set.

However, for science, if I must commit non-consensual sex for the purpose of an experiment....... just to see how it turns out...... for science........ (I don't blame anybody for doing that, and nobody should feel shame.... for science!)

Anyway, I have some bigger fish to fry in dreams. What I am going to do with those fish after I fry them..... .... you don't want to know! (Always got to end with a joke.....) Good Talk!

Jack Reacher wrote:Of course all of it is ethical. None of it is real. Even torturing someone in a video game isn't unethical, you are not doing any harm to anyone else.

However, it is unethical of the video game developers to develop such a game, because you are doing harm to your mind and your well being by doing this kind of stuff. The ratings are there to protect you. So when you do stuff like that in a dream, I see no reason why anything you do is unethical, the characters are merely projections. Its like saying is it unethical to write a story about doing this stuff, only to burn the piece of paper.

Yea, maybe the game developers are the true sickos! Yet, there is a market for it and people pay hard earned cash for it..... Makes you wonder......

I've seen and done crazy things in dreams, the more un-lucid, the crazier, because I don't have my sense of 'self', which is an illusion of self awareness that comes with 'morals' strapped on for the ride. But I am not psycho. I am just plagued with a damn dream recall that most people in this world don't have. (On this site we have it, and I am average compared to you guys), but if most people recalled their dreams and what they did, lucid or not, they would book themselves into an insane asylum! Thinking, (OH My God! What have I done!)

There is no censorship on dreams, and all creative arts sprout from dreams whether they be movies or games.

DREAM ON! Censors can't get us there, but your own morals may show up and reveal themselves. But nothing more. Be free in your dreams and find out for yourself.

Some of the reasons why I was able to lucid very well was that no matter what I dream about, I set some rules. As sort of a mental grounding device to prevent any unnecessary chaos.

1. Don't hurt anyone that didn't deserve it.2. Don't force characters, befriend them naturally and they got your back.3. Never take advantage of sexual offers unless, A. You love said dream character. Or B. if god forbid you're that desperate, make a dream hooker.4. Treat the dream world no different than real worlds no matter how much it defies the laws of physics.5. Don't eat pears.....ok that one was a reference to Doctor Who, but I always wanted to say that.and 6. Regardless of what happens make sure you are at least fully awake when it's over.

HAGART wrote:I think that our emotions are paramount and controlling them is the key to controlling our dreams. (Just a theory).

Its very easy to control conscious emotions in dreams whether fear or whatever but ive found it is near impossible if not impossible to control subconcious emotions (ones you dont feel at all but are obviously there due to what is happening in the dream). First you have to be aware of the emotion to even start to try to control it and if its subconcious, you arent aware of it till you see things happening in the dream which you then know must be coming from your subconciousness.

Anyway, I have some bigger fish to fry in dreams. What I am going to do with those fish after I fry them..... .... you don't want to know! (Always got to end with a joke.....) Good Talk!

I was there for a split moment wondering what on earth you were going to do with fish and coming up with some very strange fish fetish ideas. Glad you told me it was a joke as I could of been doing that wondering on this for some time (my brain was thinking "oh he said they were cooked, wouldnt live fish or raw fish be better to run over someones body or do something else with..OMG what?.. cooked ones would flake!). Its amazing just how fast thought streams run before one reads the next part, Im a fast reader too.