hermitage_deux:GhostfacedFiddlah: hermitage_deux: generally speaking... debts with interest cannot be repaid, because the dollars equal to the amount of interest accrued do not exist in the system. Only the principle amount loaned exists in the system.

so, it doesn't matter who borrows (Dems/Repubs) or for why (school budgets/prisons)...the money to repay the interest doesn't exist in the system. you can only borrow more money to pay the interest or.. default. those are the only two options in the near term. and default is the only option in the long term.

Perhaps you could explain this? When I account for my personal loans, I include interest in my "system", and my bank includes interest in their system. And if you're talking about actual dollars, then in bankruptcy, no money exists in the system. It doesn't matter if it's interest or principal.

I'm missing something...

Hi,what i mean is .. in a simplified model, with one lender and one borrower... (as it is with the usa and federal reserve bank... or foreign governments and the IMF )

if i loan you $100, and require $110 back..you can't repay it.u can't repay 110... if there's only 100 in circulation.

ur only option is to take a new loan for 10 to repay the interest on the first loan.or, declare bankruptcy where your assets will be confiscated. btw, the bank doesn't make $10 loans... $100 minimum plz.

they will take the payments as long as (government of your choice) makes them, and take the collateral as soon as they stop... for example, many small Greek Islands are now for sale.

Ummm no... you get a loan generally based on future ability to generate revenues to pay back principal and interest. Detroit pledged future taxes to pay back borrowing. They would say to a bank, hey give us $100 today, we are going to build stuff and collect $25/year for the next 5 years and we will give you $22 out of the $25 each year over the five years. We will keep $3 to build our balance sheet etc.

Instead they paid out the whole $100 to wages/bribes/kick-backs and neither paid back loans nor actually invested in projects that would make Detroit a more desirable city (thereby not growing the future tax base).

What ended up breaking Detroit was not decades of Democratic policy, but rather complex borrowing by the city. The same thing brought down Jefferson County in Alabama.

Had the city not entered into those loans, it would still be solvent. Of course, it would still be plagued by urban decay and corruption, but that is a different matter. It could be argued that it could have stumbled on for another decade or two like that before the Chinese swooped in took over.

The funny thing is, that Wall Street will be made while on the ill advised loans they made to Detriot and the retired city workers will get nothing.

At least the old retired workers will get Social Security and Medicare. Oops, the city retirement plan (un)wisely kept their employees out of those wasteful government plans.

Wouldn't it be hilarious if we had 25 states with nothing but democrats and 25 states with nothing but republicans? That is my first wish if I ever find a genie in a bottle. My second wish would be to come back about 20 years later to see the results. And my final wish is to sit back and listen to who the democrats would blame their total failure on. It would be AWESOME.....I mean totally AWESOME!

bdub77:PunGent: rjkline: Democrats promise everyone the world to get elected, but have no idea what to do when the bills are due. It's actually hilarious to watch. By gosh it's our RIGHT to have EVERYTHING! It's just like when little kids tell their parents to "JUST WRITE A CHECK" for whatever they may want after their parents explain to them that they cannot afford it. Republicans want the same nice stuff that libtards want, but they just happen to understand that you cannot have things that you cannot afford. Amazingly simple concept that my young kids already know, but apparently its too complicated for Harvard educated Democrats to grasp.

On the off chance you're not just a troll, care to hazard a guess as to how much of the current Federal debt is Bush-era crap put on the national credit card?

Or are you one of those "fiscal conservatives" who thought we could pay for 2 wars and 2 massive expansions of federal government with tax cuts?

He's one of those fiscal conservatives who, although he voted for Bush twice and continues to vote for conservatives, didn't approve of the wars per se, but he generally approves of having a strong military budget which includes intervening in Iran. Plus that military stuff trickles down to the surplus store he visits every weekend.

He of course supports the Ryan budget, even though there's no feasible way the Ryan budget actually works and does nothing to reduce the deficit, which is why it can't even get to the appropriations stage. The thought of cutting off those goddamn welfare queens gives him a little woody.

He loves tax cuts, because he got that check for $300 from Bush, nevermind that some really really really rich guys made out like bandits. Because it all trickles down. Besides, one day he'll be rich!

Even though he regularly votes clowns who don't understand deficits or debt into office, he personally doesn't live beyond his means, and only spends any extra money he has on MREs, guns and ammo in the fervent hope that one day all his stupid stockpiling will actually have a reason to exist. After all there's nothing better than making sure you've got yours while tens of millions of people starve to death.

And it's high time Obama took the blame for everything, Bush was President 5 years ago so he's no longer responsible for anything that happened in the past.

FLMountainMan:It'll be interesting to see what happens when Seattle runs Boeing off. I think they have enough tech companies to be alright, and their demographics are completely different, but I think in fifty years it'll be a good compare-and-contrast exercise.

Detroit's city government eventually just ran out of other people's money.

Yeah can you believe Seattle not giving in to the corporate wealfare demands of Boeing. Boeing is a job creator and worthy of tax payer subsidies! It's how the free market works.

Seriously, it's the ONE thing we have that doesn't involve shooting stuff and fire.

Let us have this one thing, goddamnit.

Most of us have no wish to visit your blighted city. Why not send some of your capitalist-acquired world heritage quality loot out on tour to raise a few shekels for the teachers, firefighters, and even the cops who are going to get hosed.Send a hundred items each year.

MyRandomName:reillan: sure haven't: Can someone please explain what this means? I know it's a big deal... but exactly what does it mean when a city gets bankruptcy protection??

In the case of Detroit, it appears to mean that they can eliminate retirees' pensions in order to pay off the cities debts. So yeah, great news.

They still have their 401 (a) accounts. .. that promised a 7.9% gain. The only defined pension plan that promised defined pay outs. Imagine if your 401 (k) promised that return. Bernie Maddoff is proud.

Dallas Police Pension does better than that. They invest a lot in real estate.

http://www.dallasobserver.com/2012-07-26/news/the-dallas-police-and-f i re-pension-s-big-real-estate-gamble/

Went bankrupt because of very bad investment decisions by Democrat Robert Citron, the only Democrat in office in Orange County at the time. He was the Treasurer and Tax Collector for the county, and leveraged the county's investments - badly.

When interest rates went up, it went sour. The county's positive cash flow turned into bankruptcy almost overnight.

Yes, because of one man.

Of course, there's the current pension problem, which is a lot like the rest of the big-city pension disasters. Underfunded, paying out too much to the pensioners, et cetera. Of course, without the massive losses caused by Citron, the county wouldn't be so far underwater now.

Look, if Obama hadn't tripled the size of Bush's war in Afghanistan, tried to keep us in Iraq and Afghanistan past the treaty dates for withdrawal in both, started his own war in Libya, tried to start yet another in Syria, saved the Bush tax cuts for the rich from finally expiring as scheduled at the stat of the year, etc., etc., etc., you might have a point.

BullBearMS:Here's an excellent article if you want to understand just how the bank's interest rate swaps allowed them to make a killing while destroying the future of an already troubled Detroit.

[assets-s3.rollingstone.com image 306x306]

Looting Main Street

How the nation's biggest banks are ripping off American cities with the same predatory deals that brought down Greece

So were Detroit's politicians, finance gurus and accountants a bunch of backwoods yokels tricked by the evil big city bankers or (more likely) they saw a way of kicking financial problems further down the road for the future administrations to have to deal with (not unlike the Federal government ) while they could claim to keep the good times rolling during their terms in office? After all those votes/unions are not going to buy themselves.

rjkline:Wouldn't it be hilarious if we had 25 states with nothing but democrats and 25 states with nothing but republicans? That is my first wish if I ever find a genie in a bottle. My second wish would be to come back about 20 years later to see the results. And my final wish is to sit back and listen to who the democrats would blame their total failure on. It would be AWESOME.....I mean totally AWESOME!

They'd both explode.

Democrats would immediately raise taxes to ridiculous levels, apply a bunch of well-intentioned and possibly necessary, but ultimately job-killing regulations, and (relatively) destroy the economy. (Seriously, look at Europe. Accepting higher inequality gets us some useful things like significantly higher GDP/capita, a bunch of brain drain in our favor, lower unemployment, and higher workforce participation rates). Among other things, I'm willing to bet that at least half of them would follow the ratchet tax plan, wherein government spending tracked GDP during boom times and then when the recession hit (which it always does. It's one of those bugs of capitalism), they'd raise taxes to compensate for lower incomes until they eventually ran out of other people's money.

Republicans would immediately cut taxes to useless levels including cutting those important things like roads and schools. They might also go really crazily derp socially. This would then destroy the economy as the infrastructure collapsed and the educated workforce either left or started using private schools/roads.

/TLDR: Neither extreme is good. Republican one is probably mildly better for me personally (Namely, you can solve 75% of the problems they cause by throwing money at them whereas the Democratic one would leave me with no money), but it's a definite douche/turd scenario there.

hasty ambush:BullBearMS: Here's an excellent article if you want to understand just how the bank's interest rate swaps allowed them to make a killing while destroying the future of an already troubled Detroit.

[assets-s3.rollingstone.com image 306x306]

Looting Main Street

How the nation's biggest banks are ripping off American cities with the same predatory deals that brought down Greece

So were Detroit's politicians, finance gurus and accountants a bunch of backwoods yokels tricked by the evil big city bankers or (more likely) they saw a way of kicking financial problems further down the road for the future administrations to have to deal with (not unlike the Federal government ) while they could claim to keep the good times rolling during their terms in office? After all those votes/unions are not going to buy themselves.

Detriot would not be bankrupt except they ended up on the wrong side of the interest swap.

Fusilier:megarian: AND STOP HATING ON US FOR WANTING TO KEEP OUR ART STUFF!

Seriously, it's the ONE thing we have that doesn't involve shooting stuff and fire.

Let us have this one thing, goddamnit.

Most of us have no wish to visit your blighted city. Why not send some of your capitalist-acquired world heritage quality loot out on tour to raise a few shekels for the teachers, firefighters, and even the cops who are going to get hosed.Send a hundred items each year.

Wendy's Chili:This has less to do with Detroit's city government, and more to do with our national trade policies. After WWII, the folks in Washington made lopsided deals with South Korea, Japan, and West Germany in order to prop up their economies and secure their alligience during the Cold War. This came at the expense of our manufacutring mecca, Detroit.

Unfortunately for your manufacturing mecca, it produced cars of such uniform, awful crapness that no potential car buyer anywhere else in the world ever looked at any of them without either laughing or retching. Trade policies are irrelevant, though if successive governments hadn't protect the US car industry it might have ad to raise its game enough to compete with the rest of the world. As it was, Detroit produced the Ladas, Moskvitches and Trabants of the west.

orbister:Wendy's Chili: This has less to do with Detroit's city government, and more to do with our national trade policies. After WWII, the folks in Washington made lopsided deals with South Korea, Japan, and West Germany in order to prop up their economies and secure their alligience during the Cold War. This came at the expense of our manufacutring mecca, Detroit.

Unfortunately for your manufacturing mecca, it produced cars of such uniform, awful crapness that no potential car buyer anywhere else in the world ever looked at any of them without either laughing or retching. Trade policies are irrelevant, though if successive governments hadn't protect the US car industry it might have ad to raise its game enough to compete with the rest of the world. As it was, Detroit produced the Ladas, Moskvitches and Trabants of the west.

Hint: the rest of the world wants cars which will go round corners.

Meh. Everyone's trying to point fingers at everything except the elephant in the middle of the room.

/of course, the elephant gets really mad if you point a finger at it//mad enough to smash an assembly line, or shut down a factory///or even walk around waving signs that accuse banks of being to blame for the loans their leaders forced them to make

Wendy's Chili:AngryDragon: meanmutton: Pants full of macaroni!!: The lesson is clear: democrats must NEVER AGAIN be allowed to hold ANY public office in the United States.

All kidding aside, the lesson that really should be clear -- any time you have a single party running government for a long period of time without a legitimate challenge, shiat gets farked up.

Yup. This is the lesson. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Exactly why there should never be lifetime politicians also.

This has less to do with Detroit's city government, and more to do with our national trade policies. After WWII, the folks in Washington made lopsided deals with South Korea, Japan, and West Germany in order to prop up their economies and secure their alligience during the Cold War. This came at the expense of our manufacutring mecca, Detroit. There was never enough political pressure to change the policies even after the Cold War because by then the importers carried more clout than the unions.

Such nonsense. You think post WWII the US would remain the only manufacturing country In the world? The recovery of other world economies was inevitable and we have had to adjust from having virtually no competition to having a planet full. US Auto makers/their unions failed to adapt and move from being the world's defacto auto maker to having competition that was putting together better products. Same goes for US steel makers.

What you are upset about is that you have to actually compete. You don't have a captive market that can only buy the products you want them to. Joe American Consumer is not stuck with only being able to chose between a Pontiac or Chrysler POS but can get a Honda, Volkswagen or a Toyota.

We still make stuff, a lot of stuff in this country and are still competitive in many industries

Fusilier:megarian: AND STOP HATING ON US FOR WANTING TO KEEP OUR ART STUFF!

Seriously, it's the ONE thing we have that doesn't involve shooting stuff and fire.

Let us have this one thing, goddamnit.

Most of us have no wish to visit your blighted city. Why not send some of your capitalist-acquired world heritage quality loot out on tour to raise a few shekels for the teachers, firefighters, and even the cops who are going to get hosed.Send a hundred items each year.

The insurance and logistics involved with shipping art would wipe away any profits.

And the sale of the art won't raise much money.

Those exorbitant sale prices you read about in the news are the result of sellers waiting until demand is at its highest.

The City is going to want to unload the art as fast as possible, and flooding the market always depresses prices.

The result will be a fire sale; all the art will be scooped up by private collectors, and a few years later they'll begin to resell the pieces for substantially more than they bought them for.

rjkline:Wouldn't it be hilarious if we had 25 states with nothing but democrats and 25 states with nothing but republicans? That is my first wish if I ever find a genie in a bottle. My second wish would be to come back about 20 years later to see the results. And my final wish is to sit back and listen to who the democrats would blame their total failure on. It would be AWESOME.....I mean totally AWESOME!

Take a look at your map. Southern States are pretty much controlled by Republicans, and Northeast and West Coast Democrats.

Where would you rather live: California and its high taxes, or Mississippi and it's mediocrity?

thornhill:Fusilier: megarian: AND STOP HATING ON US FOR WANTING TO KEEP OUR ART STUFF!

Seriously, it's the ONE thing we have that doesn't involve shooting stuff and fire.

Let us have this one thing, goddamnit.

Most of us have no wish to visit your blighted city. Why not send some of your capitalist-acquired world heritage quality loot out on tour to raise a few shekels for the teachers, firefighters, and even the cops who are going to get hosed.Send a hundred items each year.

The insurance and logistics involved with shipping art would wipe away any profits.

And the sale of the art won't raise much money.

Those exorbitant sale prices you read about in the news are the result of sellers waiting until demand is at its highest.

The City is going to want to unload the art as fast as possible, and flooding the market always depresses prices.

The result will be a fire sale; all the art will be scooped up by private collectors, and a few years later they'll begin to resell the pieces for substantially more than they bought them for.

When I lived in Baltimore, that city staged exhibits all the time with items gathered from all over the world. Insurance and logistical considerations are routine for places like the Walters Art Gallery or the Baltimore Museum of Art, and I'm sure other museums as well. Sometimes works by a single artist of a particular "school" eg Hudson river School, sometimes works from a single museum or collection. They all seemed to do pretty well. You sound defeatist.

dwrash:AngryDragon: meanmutton: Pants full of macaroni!!: The lesson is clear: democrats must NEVER AGAIN be allowed to hold ANY public office in the United States.

All kidding aside, the lesson that really should be clear -- any time you have a single party running government for a long period of time without a legitimate challenge, shiat gets farked up.

Yup. This is the lesson. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Exactly why there should never be lifetime politicians also.

Along with agreeing to unfunded future liabilities... union bosses and politicians should be taken out and publicly flogged for negotiating these types of contracts.

Congress is to blame. Government pensions don't have to be funded under an exemption that mandates company pensions are fully funded. It wasn't about unions it was about keeping taxes artificially low so fiscal conservatives could have a short term victory and kick the tab down to future generations.

Anyone in the financial industry understood this a long time ago. The long con is about up and public sector employees who sacrificed high paying opportunities for stable retirement are learning that society has been conspiring against them all along, just like corporate employees found out years ago.

In this country, maybe 4% will be financially able to retire. Period. Everyone else will be working as long as they can to put off the cat-food years.

Fusilier:thornhill: Fusilier: megarian: AND STOP HATING ON US FOR WANTING TO KEEP OUR ART STUFF!

Seriously, it's the ONE thing we have that doesn't involve shooting stuff and fire.

Let us have this one thing, goddamnit.

Most of us have no wish to visit your blighted city. Why not send some of your capitalist-acquired world heritage quality loot out on tour to raise a few shekels for the teachers, firefighters, and even the cops who are going to get hosed.Send a hundred items each year.

The insurance and logistics involved with shipping art would wipe away any profits.

And the sale of the art won't raise much money.

Those exorbitant sale prices you read about in the news are the result of sellers waiting until demand is at its highest.

The City is going to want to unload the art as fast as possible, and flooding the market always depresses prices.

The result will be a fire sale; all the art will be scooped up by private collectors, and a few years later they'll begin to resell the pieces for substantially more than they bought them for.

When I lived in Baltimore, that city staged exhibits all the time with items gathered from all over the world. Insurance and logistical considerations are routine for places like the Walters Art Gallery or the Baltimore Museum of Art, and I'm sure other museums as well. Sometimes works by a single artist of a particular "school" eg Hudson river School, sometimes works from a single museum or collection. They all seemed to do pretty well. You sound defeatist.

Yes, I'm aware that museums lend each other works from time to time so that one museum can do a show featuring many works by one artist. But the best pieces in a museum's collections never tour for fear of damage and the insurance cost.

thornhill:Fusilier: thornhill: Fusilier: megarian: AND STOP HATING ON US FOR WANTING TO KEEP OUR ART STUFF!

Seriously, it's the ONE thing we have that doesn't involve shooting stuff and fire.

Let us have this one thing, goddamnit.

Most of us have no wish to visit your blighted city. Why not send some of your capitalist-acquired world heritage quality loot out on tour to raise a few shekels for the teachers, firefighters, and even the cops who are going to get hosed.Send a hundred items each year.

The insurance and logistics involved with shipping art would wipe away any profits.

And the sale of the art won't raise much money.

Those exorbitant sale prices you read about in the news are the result of sellers waiting until demand is at its highest.

The City is going to want to unload the art as fast as possible, and flooding the market always depresses prices.

The result will be a fire sale; all the art will be scooped up by private collectors, and a few years later they'll begin to resell the pieces for substantially more than they bought them for.

When I lived in Baltimore, that city staged exhibits all the time with items gathered from all over the world. Insurance and logistical considerations are routine for places like the Walters Art Gallery or the Baltimore Museum of Art, and I'm sure other museums as well. Sometimes works by a single artist of a particular "school" eg Hudson river School, sometimes works from a single museum or collection. They all seemed to do pretty well. You sound defeatist.

Yes, I'm aware that museums lend each other works from time to time so that one museum can do a show featuring many works by one artist. But the best pieces in a museum's collections never tour for fear of damage and the insurance cost.

Well, since the Motor City has its pecker caught in the door jamb, they might want to see if they can break some new ground. If it comes down to that or a week at Christies what do you think they will choose? Maybe they could get an armored bus and charge us rubes $7.50 a head during its weekend stay.

hasty ambush:Such nonsense. You think post WWII the US would remain the only manufacturing country In the world? The recovery of other world economies was inevitable and we have had to adjust from having virtually no competition to having a planet full.

A lot of people were stupid enough to think those golden days of post WW2 and no competition would last forever. Politicians made lofty promises based on that idea. Even when competition showed up, the general attitude was, "bah, cheap Japanese made junk." While true at first, it did not stay that way. No one but an idiot thinks Japanese cars are cheap junk these days.

FLMountainMan:It'll be interesting to see what happens when Seattle runs Boeing off. I think they have enough tech companies to be alright, and their demographics are completely different, but I think in fifty years it'll be a good compare-and-contrast exercise.

Detroit's city government eventually just ran out of other people's money.

Seattle has a trump card in the feds with the NLRB. The unions go on strike so often that it's always right after a strike, meaning anytime a Boeing manager thinks of taking a vacation outside of Seattle that it turns into a union retribution charge and the NLRB drops the hammer on them.

Jesus built my hybrid:My republican run state is running a budget surplus, has 4.6% unemployment, and is 47 on the list of states that take in the most federal dollars.

My Democrat run state is over $100Billion in debt and has the second highest unemployment in the country. We need over three years of revenue just to pay for the pension issue let alone the $8+ Billion (and growing) outstanding debt that it owes at the present moment.

BolloxReader:dwrash: AngryDragon: meanmutton: Pants full of macaroni!!: The lesson is clear: democrats must NEVER AGAIN be allowed to hold ANY public office in the United States.

All kidding aside, the lesson that really should be clear -- any time you have a single party running government for a long period of time without a legitimate challenge, shiat gets farked up.

Yup. This is the lesson. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Exactly why there should never be lifetime politicians also.

Along with agreeing to unfunded future liabilities... union bosses and politicians should be taken out and publicly flogged for negotiating these types of contracts.

Congress is to blame. Government pensions don't have to be funded under an exemption that mandates company pensions are fully funded. It wasn't about unions it was about keeping taxes artificially low so fiscal conservatives could have a short term victory and kick the tab down to future generations.

Anyone in the financial industry understood this a long time ago. The long con is about up and public sector employees who sacrificed high paying opportunities for stable retirement are learning that society has been conspiring against them all along, just like corporate employees found out years ago.

In this country, maybe 4% will be financially able to retire. Period. Everyone else will be working as long as they can to put off the cat-food years.

I don't think fiscal conservative means what you think it does. Are there even any of those running towns or counties in the US? The pension accounting rules for government were a give a way by the feds to large blue cities and their unions. Mayors across the country were able to buy off their unions support by promising big raises today and bigger pensions tomorrow. The unions went along with it because the negotiators wanted to keep their jobs and Pollyanna good news sells to the union electorates and they were paid well to kick the can down the road. When have you seen a fiscal conservative republican or democrat declare victory because they signed a new contract with 10% raises and 120% pension bonuses?

ricbach229:FLMountainMan: It'll be interesting to see what happens when Seattle runs Boeing off. I think they have enough tech companies to be alright, and their demographics are completely different, but I think in fifty years it'll be a good compare-and-contrast exercise.

Detroit's city government eventually just ran out of other people's money.

Seattle has a trump card in the feds with the NLRB. The unions go on strike so often that it's always right after a strike, meaning anytime a Boeing manager thinks of taking a vacation outside of Seattle that it turns into a union retribution charge and the NLRB drops the hammer on them.

HUNTSVILLE, Alabama - Who thinks Huntsville might be a serious candidate for a new next-generation Boeing aircraft plant? The Seattle Times does, adding Huntsville to its list of four competitors for the new plant meriting a closer look. The other three are Long Beach, Calif.; Salt Lake City, Utah; and Charleston, S.C.

Boeing announced in November that it would "pursue all options" for building its new 777x jetliner after a Seattle union rejected the company's final offer for an 8-year labor contract extension. Alabama officials said a few days later that they will make a proposal to bring the new plant to North Alabama.

reillan:sure haven't: Can someone please explain what this means? I know it's a big deal... but exactly what does it mean when a city gets bankruptcy protection??

In the case of Detroit, it appears to mean that they can eliminate retirees' pensions in order to pay off the cities debts. So yeah, great news.

They won't be eliminated, they'll be reduced. If I were doing it, I'd establish some floor amount that all pensioners would receive at a minimum, then whatever was left over in the pool of available funds would be apportioned based on how much the pensioner was entitled to under the old system. A higher pension would entitle you to a bigger piece of the reduced pie.

rjkline:Democrats promise everyone the world to get elected, but have no idea what to do when the bills are due. It's actually hilarious to watch. By gosh it's our RIGHT to have EVERYTHING! It's just like when little kids tell their parents to "JUST WRITE A CHECK" for whatever they may want after their parents explain to them that they cannot afford it. Republicans want the same nice stuff that libtards want, but they just happen to understand that you cannot have things that you cannot afford. Amazingly simple concept that my young kids already know, but apparently its too complicated for Harvard educated Democrats to grasp.

hasty ambush:Boeing announced in November that it would "pursue all options" for building its new 777x jetliner after a Seattle union rejected the company's final offer for an 8-year labor contract extension. Alabama officials said a few days later that they will make a proposal to bring the new plant to North Alabama.

Good luck with that, Alabama is more anti-outsider than anti-union, as Hyundai recently found out when the people that sold them land for a factory successfully sued them for $4.8 million because they decided that the "fair price" for the land they sold was triple what they sold it for a decade ago.

/"They (Hyundai) made a profit from the land, and the sellers didn't."//no, really, that's an actual quote from the jury foreman explaining the verdict///not anti-union, but still anti-Union, if you get my drift

Wonder how many of those jobs are in the private sector? (They say non farm jobs.) Seems kind of silly to start with FDR considering that was war time/post war. Guess before 1933 its not considered modern times.

It also pretends that economies are static points in time whose labor market is solely decided by the president. There is no lag for economic policies at all.

True, but I always find it funny that when economic lag benefits Republicans, they tout it - when it benefits Democrats, Repubs say it doesn't exist at all.

rjkline:Democrats promise everyone the world to get elected, but have no idea what to do when the bills are due. It's actually hilarious to watch. By gosh it's our RIGHT to have EVERYTHING! It's just like when little kids tell their parents to "JUST WRITE A CHECK" for whatever they may want after their parents explain to them that they cannot afford it. Republicans want the same nice stuff that libtards want, but they just happen to understand that you cannot have things that you cannot afford. Amazingly simple concept that my young kids already know, but apparently its too complicated for Harvard educated Democrats to grasp.

HAMMERTOE:PunGent: Or are you one of those "fiscal conservatives" who thought we could pay for 2 wars and 2 massive expansions of federal government with tax cuts?

Isn't this similar to how people are magically able to afford healthcare insurance because they are forced to buy it by law now? Both sides of the coin are hopelessly corrupted by their agendas and affiliations, but everybody's too busy covering the deck chairs on the titanic with red and blue beach towels to notice the real problem.

No question. For the record, I've been opposed to Obamacare (and, here in Mass., Romneycare) since Day One.

It might be the best thing since sliced bread, but I STILL think they're both un-Constitutional. Yes, I know how the Supreme Court ruled...I think they're wrong.