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Re: An answer from Foretaz..... about Hulkster

They aren't turnovers, but Tinsley doesn't put the ball in a guys hands where he's in a position to immediately score.

Mark Jackson wasn't very good at making post-entry passes either. Its easier for a taller guy to find a passing angle that leads directly to a shot attempt (vs. JO's catch the ball, gather himself, then go to his favority move(s) ).

On the current roster, Ron had the best ability to make post entry passes; however, his willingness to do so has been a major concern in the past.

I'm right there with ya Jay, but I'm starting to lean to being a 50-50 problem between the guards and big men. A lot of Harrison's problems are with his confidence in being able to seal his man. It's been a while, but from what I remember he would normally have his hands low trying to feel his defender, instead of giving a target and the ball would practically hit him in the chest before he could get his hands up. Him having a long background in football, I don't think his hands are really the problem.

To get to JO, he gives a target but it's always high. I hate throwing into a post player that wants the ball up above his head. It's easier to hit someone in the chest than it is his hand, just like oversized golf drivers, there's more forgiveness if you miss just slightly.

Re: An answer from Foretaz..... about Hulkster

Right, but the low pass (at his chest) is easier to deflect, which is part of David's problem - as you pointed out he doesn't get his hands clear of the defender and he's got to learn (at both ends of the court, this was the "trick of the trade" I was referring to) to use his body but not his hands.

As a PG, all of my post entry passes were bounce passes so my guy could get the ball on its way up and have it 'guide' him into his move. If I went for the high pass, it was too much of a lob and my guy would be double-teamed as soon as he got the ball.

It takes a bigger guy, like Derrick, or Jalen, or even Ron, to make the high entry pass with enough zip.

Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
And life itself, rushing over me
Life itself, the wind in black elms,
Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

Re: An answer from Foretaz..... about Hulkster

They aren't turnovers, but Tinsley doesn't put the ball in a guys hands where he's in a position to immediately score.

Mark Jackson wasn't very good at making post-entry passes either. Its easier for a taller guy to find a passing angle that leads directly to a shot attempt (vs. JO's catch the ball, gather himself, then go to his favority move(s) ).

On the current roster, Ron had the best ability to make post entry passes; however, his willingness to do so has been a major concern in the past.

Bill, one other note... I don't think David's individual rebound numbers will ever do him justice. I think he's the type of guy that can take on and neutralize the other team's star rebounder (he seems to love boxing out, too bad JO hasn't picked up that habit from him) but its his teammates who will actually grab the rebounds.

And this kind of sums up what I'm concerned about. As I've said, since I don't see Ron as being best in the post and under the basket in a half-court set (and others don't see Ron as dependably effective at all ) I think we need our 5 to be scoring more than defensive. Rebounding is about a 50-50 proposition - we have very effective rebounder role players that we can use to change the momentum if needed.

I think we need Harrison to show that he can be effective offensively, so JO isn't the only post option (avoiding front court double-teams) when they are on court together (and, more importantly for next season, to provide a front-court scorer off the bench).

Actually, I think part of the reason we've not seen any of our PGs as effective at putting the ball in someone's hands at the exact best moment is the sheer number of on-court combinations we were forced to use this year. Practicing timing is one thing, but being able to get the flow down during actual competition with a consistent roster on the floor is mandatory before you can really expect to see smooth entry passes.

Also, to be fair, our front court consists of people who really feel they have to put the ball on the floor before they shoot - you can see this on rebounds and on feeds from pretty much anyone. That's not really Tinsley's fault.

BillS

"Every time I pitched it was like throwing gasoline on a fire. Pkkw! Pkkw! Pkkw! Pkkw!"
- Ebby Calvin "Nuke" LaLoosh

There are players that turn out extremely good that are always drafted far back.

yup...and as i said...i hope all those guys were wrong....

but keep in mind for every one of the ones u mentioned theres literally hundreds of just the opposite....not to mention hundreds more that were drafted much higher that were complete busts as well....

yes...there are exceptions....and we all desperately hope that the experts were wrong in this case....i guess personally, ill try to keep a proper perspective and maintain managed expectations to avoid any huge disappointments if he would happen to not be the one in a thousand....

Re: An answer from Foretaz..... about Hulkster

My biggest concern about Harrison is durability.

I know that one season does not a career make, but he had a concussion, knee surgery, and who knows what else. Concussions are usually easier to get after you have one, and he is in a position where those are more likely than others. Also, as big as he is, it isn't exactly encouraging that he is already having a knee problem.

I'm not saying he can do anything about it (Except for conditioning, but I agree that he came in early and worked hard based on what I've read,) but this team can ill afford another player with glorious potential, but due to medical reasons he is pulling splinters out of his butt instead of pulling down rebounds.

I do like what he brings to the table though. I saw a QoD about how the Pacers have great post scoring, but not enough perimeter scoring. I'll agree that we need to shore up the perimeter, but tell me one guy besides JO who is a great low-post threat. Artest is okay, but I wouldnt' want to count on him getting up a shot against Big Ben in an ECF game.

Harrison has a very nice touch. Not only do I think he can score in the post, he can hit that mid-range "J" that is oh so needed. I hope he can play without injury, b/c if he can spell JO or take some attention away from him in the post, then this team gets quite a bit better.

I don't know that he has the toughness I'd like to see is a person his size, but we the market cornered on guys who can rebound.

Re: An answer from Foretaz..... about Hulkster

There were a couple reasons I got excited about DH during summer league last year... his size of course, but he's pretty athletic despite all that size. It may stem partially from football, but he has good feet. Good footwork is really one of the tougher aspects for bigs to develop and then implement in real game situations. It seems pretty instinctive for him, which should make the rest of his game come easier, which I think we all saw him progress from game to game when he was healthy.

I actually thought he had pretty good hands, i often remember some post passes (usually when he was being fronted) being questionable yet he came up with em'...not unlike a TE or WR tapping a pass and keeping the ball alive enough so he could bring it in.

Lets just hope he can stay conditioned, healthy, focused....and if he is...that Rick will play him.

Re: An answer from Foretaz..... about Hulkster

Jay, some of your observations I just disagree with.

Dale Davis has great, great hands. Not quite as good as Shaq or Webber, but Dale has great hands. AD was the one with bad hands, and Rik's weren't so great either. But Jay, I wonder if you are confusing DD with AD

As far as Foster, he doesn't have any problem grabbing the ball for rebounds, I don't recall ever thinking to myself that Foster's hands aren't good.

Harrison - Carlisle said on his radio show this past season that he had to tell the players not to throw Harrison bounce passes.

Re: An answer from Foretaz..... about Hulkster

Dale Davis has great, great hands. Not quite as good as Shaq or Webber, but Dale has great hands. AD was the one with bad hands, and Rik's weren't so great either. But Jay, I wonder if you are confusing DD with AD

As far as Foster, he doesn't have any problem grabbing the ball for rebounds, I don't recall ever thinking to myself that Foster's hands aren't good.

Harrison - Carlisle said on his radio show this past season that he had to tell the players not to throw Harrison bounce passes.

and could u really fault foster if he bobbled a pass or two???? i mean how many times is he actually passed the ball? the sheer surprise of a ball being passed to him would be enuff to throw anyones concentration off...

Re: An answer from Foretaz..... about Hulkster

Dale Davis has great, great hands. Not quite as good as Shaq or Webber, but Dale has great hands. AD was the one with bad hands, and Rik's weren't so great either. But Jay, I wonder if you are confusing DD with AD

As far as Foster, he doesn't have any problem grabbing the ball for rebounds, I don't recall ever thinking to myself that Foster's hands aren't good.

Harrison - Carlisle said on his radio show this past season that he had to tell the players not to throw Harrison bounce passes.

Are you kidding me?

AD's hands are small, and he isn't good at catching the ball. No doubt about that.

But I'm convinced that Dale's fingers don't bend or that he's got the weakest grip in all of basketball. He simply cannot catch the ball. More often than not, if he's open under the basket, it will take him so long to get control of the ball and gather himself that teams know there is plenty of time to recover and challenge his shot.

If you seriously think he's got anything better than below-average hands then we're going to have to agree to disagree on that one. Now, there are many, many other things he does well, but that ain't one of them.

Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
And life itself, rushing over me
Life itself, the wind in black elms,
Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

Re: An answer from Foretaz..... about Hulkster

and could u really fault foster if he bobbled a pass or two???? i mean how many times is he actually passed the ball? the sheer surprise of a ball being passed to him would be enuff to throw anyones concentration off...

I know you're trying to be clever here, but its the whole chicken-and-egg thing. I know from personal experience that I would quickly figure out which of my teammates could catch the ball and which ones couldn't. And guess who I avoided throwing the ball to?

Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
And life itself, rushing over me
Life itself, the wind in black elms,
Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

Re: An answer from Foretaz..... about Hulkster

I know you're trying to be clever here, but its the whole chicken-and-egg thing. I know from personal experience that I would quickly figure out which of my teammates could catch the ball and which ones couldn't. And guess who I avoided throwing the ball to?

not even sure clever is a light enuff word....with some of the other rather involved discussions im in, it was an opportunity i just couldnt resist....

see...im really a jokester and smarta$$ at heart....but to do those things in somewhat serious discussions is something i feel is disrespectful and discrediting....so i try to check myself....i do have to erase a statement from time to time.....

btw...not that it really matters...but ur talking to another former pg...so i know of what u speak

Re: An answer from Foretaz..... about Hulkster

Harrison's hands are much worse than DD or Foster, I don't even see this being debatable.

It seemed that 80% of the time the ball was thrown inside to Harrison he dropped the initial pass. He usually got the ball back after fumbling it and made a decent play with the ball. Comparing his hand's with DD and Foster is ridiculous. Harrison has a better touch around the basket, but better hands, absolutely not.

Re: An answer from Foretaz..... about Hulkster

Harrison's hands are much worse than DD or Foster, I don't even see this being debatable.

It seemed that 80% of the time the ball was thrown inside to Harrison he dropped the initial pass. He usually got the ball back after fumbling it and made a decent play with the ball. Comparing his hand's with DD and Foster is ridiculous. Harrison has a better touch around the basket, but better hands, absolutely not.

I have a really hard time believing he just has bad hands. I just don't think a guy with, just estimating on pee-wee leagues through his growth spurt, 8-10 yrs. of football experience playing TE could have bad hands. If he was a bad athlete, and was one of those guys that was "on the team" but really wasn't, I'd understand, but I'm guessing he was good considering he was being looked at by colleges up until he quit.

Catching a basketball isn't nearly as tough as a football, especially when you're going through a seam. I'd just really like to see him develop confidence in the post. I think that's all he really needs.

Re: An answer from Foretaz..... about Hulkster

For obvious reasons I am not going to comment on Dale or his hands. However I just don't see Jeff having bad hands either. Now he is not great with his hands but I've never been afraid he would bobble a pass.

On the other hand we didn't call Scot Pollard "Stone Hands" for nothing. He has about the worst hands I've ever seen & that is saying something because Granville Waiters used to make me cry when he would drop a pass that was all but laid in his lap.

Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

Re: An answer from Foretaz..... about Hulkster

I seem to remember Brad Miller and Jeff Foster blowing a few timely passes from Tinsley in their day. As for Dale, I think he is about average for his position. JO has great hands, but can't pass, and from what I've seen of David, he's got a lot of work to do to become mediocre at accpeting the entry pass. There's a reason GM's pass on big guys with small hands, and you're seeing why.

Re: An answer from Foretaz..... about Hulkster

Well well, I don't agree on "bad" hands, I don't agree on "small" hands, I will concede that.......

Harrisson is a rookie, he was not intended to play as much as he did, he was not intended to be the focus of attention in the first months of his job here.
PG is the hardest spot to learn as a rookie, but being a usefull 5 is a very close second.

Tinsley post passes are usually so fast that it takes a whole lot of experience, and getting used to, to react and catch, the fact that he doesn't yet know how to be "in position" to "expect" and "get" the ball, is far more a reason for the fumbles then anything else, you can simply not compare the college post passes with Tinsley's.

David would normally have seen mop-up minutes, and in this coming season he would become slowly a part of the second team, getting slightly more minutes, he will be in far better shape as he was after college (very few college big men are "ready" for the NBA shape) and all that would have helped him (certainly a year catching and fumbling Tins's passes in practise instead of for the eyes of the crowds) to make us notice far less "wrong" with him.

I am sure his hands are good and big, given time to get used what to expect and learning where to hold those hands with his eyes closed to catch that zipper.

His development was stunning and the concussion was a sad thing to happen, what I said then has proven right, being held in a hospitalbed for a few weeks, then not allowed to do to much will certainly with a big ahtlete cost a whole lotta lotta lot of problems in the conditioning, the body requires a lot of "energe" (read food) to function, it gets used to it, stopping training from one day to another always results in very rapid weight gain and so forth.

I just hope that if there is a lockout we can find out where they practise and someone can get us some tape of that, so we can all see for ourselves what and how he is looking

So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

If you've done 6 impossible things today?
Then why not have Breakfast at Milliways!

Re: An answer from Foretaz..... about Hulkster

what it tells me is that they think he will never get any better....that this year we saw as good as it gets....

i hope im wrong....its not really my opinion as much as what i take from those supposed experts that all passed on him in last years first round....i would love to have harrison really turn into a serviceable center....a great defender and shot blocker who can block out and rebound....wow....that would be amazing to add to tins, jo, artest, and jack.....

This is the only part of your post that I disagreed with.

Most experts thought Harrison had the talent to be a top-15 pick, while his attitude and work ethic would probably warrant David going undrafted. So, come draftime, you had a guy who struggled to stay in the first round.

While I don't think Harrison's attitude or work ethic have been a problem yet, he has only been with us one year. His temperament should become pretty obvious in a season or two.

If doesn't have a solid work ethic, you could be right, last season could be "as good as it gets," but it wouldn't be because of a lack of talent.

I'm not sure if this really matters, but I'm going to toss it in here anyway. The Spurs, who are either the best late-round talent evaluators in the league, or lucky as *****, had Harrison as their #2 pick behind Beno (Anderson was third). Considering the success that the Pacers and Spurs have both had late in the draft recently, I feel a lot better about what the "experts" thought of David.

Re: An answer from Foretaz..... about Hulkster

Most experts thought Harrison had the talent to be a top-15 pick, while his attitude and work ethic would probably warrant David going undrafted. So, come draftime, you had a guy who struggled to stay in the first round.

While I don't think Harrison's attitude or work ethic have been a problem yet, he has only been with us one year. His temperament should become pretty obvious in a season or two.

If doesn't have a solid work ethic, you could be right, last season could be "as good as it gets," but it wouldn't be because of a lack of talent.

I'm not sure if this really matters, but I'm going to toss it in here anyway. The Spurs, who are either the best late-round talent evaluators in the league, or lucky as *****, had Harrison as their #2 pick behind Beno (Anderson was third). Considering the success that the Pacers and Spurs have both had late in the draft recently, I feel a lot better about what the "experts" thought of David.

to me...its apparent that talent had nothing to do with where he was drafted...if so hed gone much , much higher.....what does seem real is most feel that talent will not ever materialize, and i can only assume this is because of some of the reasons uve alluded to...

that being the case....i really, really do feel the next few months will be very telling....with an impending lockout and the team not being able to have contact with the players, harrison will be left greatly on his own to prepare....it will be primarily all about him and his attitude as well as work ethic....

what kind of shape he gets himself into and how he has improved will probably determine what we can expect in the future...

i know this, as good as a job as he did last year working in the offseason, if hes not in superior shape to what he was at the start of the season then there is a definite problem....because in this case, maintaining the status quo is like going backwards....

and trust me....i really really hope he makes marked improvements in all facets of his game...the impact he could have is very significant....im just not gonna count on it at this stage....only hold out hope....ive made that mistake before....bout 20 times over the last 35 years....