So the gear thief is definitely a moron. But this has become more common. Do we really have a right to leave our gear hanging around though? Something about the people climbing 14s makes them think the cliff is theirs to deposit their junk on. At what time limit are said draws "left". If I left my stuff hanging, I would not expect to see it again. Maybe the elites should clean up their crap like the rest of us moderate losers.

+1. When trad gear gets left in a wall, it is called 'booty'. I expect the same with sport climbing. I enjoy a good redpoint, and granted, I'm not climbing 5.14 (just working 5.12), to me, that 5.12 feels like another persons 5.14. To us 'lesser' climbers, our limit feels like the hardest thing in the world, and honestly, when I redpoint a route, I feel much more accomplished than when I follow the pre-placed clips up.

I wonder if he was going to put up an ad on MP though, stating he found left gear? I know that's not common practice with traddies; leaves me curious.

Wow,I can't believe how relaxed these guys are while confronting him.Can't say I would have handled the situation the same way. At the very least I would have called the cops and gave them a copy of the video.Although had I found the guy stealing my draws I probably would have just turned the camera off....

I would be interested in hearing from a lawyer, but I assume this is an ethics question and not a legal one. My assumption is that what he was doing was not legally theft. But I am curious where the line is drawn.

If someone takes my car parked on a public street it is theft. If I put a $20 bill down on a public street and someone takes it, it is definitely not considered theft. Both are my property and both are left at the same place, but there is a distinction made.

I don't want to get into a debate on whether it is right or wrong to leave draws, but I am curious what the legal grounds are for leaving your property on public lands, and whether you are forfeiting your property rights.

If I go do an alpine route and I leave my tent at the base, I assume no one has the right to take it. However, do I have the same legal standing if I backpack in 2 weeks before and leave a bunch of gear in the woods? The argument would be the same as for fixed draws... it is hard to do an alpine route carrying all the gear at once, so I stashed some of it... but do I have a right to claim someone that took it is a thief?

+1. When trad gear gets left in a wall, it is called 'booty'. I expect the same with sport climbing. I enjoy a good redpoint, and granted, I'm not climbing 5.14 (just working 5.12), to me, that 5.12 feels like another persons 5.14. To us 'lesser' climbers, our limit feels like the hardest thing in the world, and honestly, when I redpoint a route, I feel much more accomplished than when I follow the pre-placed clips up. I wonder if he was going to put up an ad on MP though, stating he found left gear? I know that's not common practice with traddies; leaves me curious.

First of all, this thief stated that he was taking the draws to "salvage" what he could for his personal use- not because he thought it was booty or littering the wall.

Second, a biner or two left on a highpoint of a route = booty. However, someone's draws hanging on a route = NOT YOURS! (it's that easy)

Third, your idea of redpointing vs pinkpointing while sport climbing is archaic. The bolt is the protection. Because sport climbs have fixed pro, sport climbers don't get excited by the act of hanging draws. It's already been decided where the pro is by the route equip-er, thus there's nothing mentally challenging about hanging draws- it simply adds contrived difficulty to redpoint attempts.

Finally, if people were really concerned about the visual impact of climbing at Smith, they would not use chalk, which is much more visible than draws. Most draws hanging at Smith are difficult to see unless you are standing under the route, while the chalked holds of Heinous Cling and Dreamin' are easily seen from the parking lot.

First of all, this thief stated that he was taking the draws to "salvage" what he could for his personal use- not because he thought it was booty or littering the wall. Second, a biner or two left on a highpoint of a route = booty. However, someone's draws hanging on a route = NOT YOURS! (it's that easy) Third, your idea of redpointing vs pinkpointing while sport climbing is archaic. The bolt is the protection. Because sport climbs have fixed pro, sport climbers don't get excited by the act of hanging draws. It's already been decided where the pro is by the route equip-er, thus there's nothing mentally challenging about hanging draws- it simply adds contrived difficulty to redpoint attempts. Finally, if people were really concerned about the visual impact of climbing at Smith, they would not use chalk, which is much more visible than draws. Most draws hanging at Smith are difficult to see unless you are standing under the route, while the chalked holds of Heinous Cling and Dreamin' are easily seen from the parking lot.

Well, if people are concerned about their QD's being taken, simply don't leave them. If I stash a pad (I don't) and it gets taken, there can be no crying on my end; I left it there.

On another note, I get quite excited by the act of hanging draws. Guess I'm not a sport climber.

I was in the shower a moment ago and came to a fine answer to this age-old ethical question: when taking QD's or stashed pads, leave a ransom note. Said note should include a way to contact you, a meeting place, and a busty blonde. The trade could also involve several farm animals and a jar of mayonnaise. The person leaving the booty gets their gear back and you get a voluptuous blonde woman (or guy for you girls out there) and some food. Win win.

The belayer was a girl. Don't know if girlfriend, sister or friend. There was another older woman there, appeared to be a mother. Both women barely spoke and did not know anything about the climb. They look quite bored. They were not involved in the discussion.

I guess I am hopelessly naive, but I honestly don't expect people to take things that are not theirs. I understand the concept of "booty" in trad climbing (I don't really have much access to sport climbing), but from what I have seen in practice, people generally will ask around if a piece is someone's before taking it. If it is obvious that someone is working on a project, even if they are nowhere to be found, you just leave it alone.

First of all, this thief stated that he was taking the draws to "salvage" what he could for his personal use- not because he thought it was booty or littering the wall. Second, a biner or two left on a highpoint of a route = booty. However, someone's draws hanging on a route = NOT YOURS! (it's that easy) Third, your idea of redpointing vs pinkpointing while sport climbing is archaic. The bolt is the protection. Because sport climbs have fixed pro, sport climbers don't get excited by the act of hanging draws. It's already been decided where the pro is by the route equip-er, thus there's nothing mentally challenging about hanging draws- it simply adds contrived difficulty to redpoint attempts. Finally, if people were really concerned about the visual impact of climbing at Smith, they would not use chalk, which is much more visible than draws. Most draws hanging at Smith are difficult to see unless you are standing under the route, while the chalked holds of Heinous Cling and Dreamin' are easily seen from the parking lot.

This guy is a thief. No doubt. To kill over it, beat him sensless or make fun of him = something wrong with you. If you leave something, be prepared to lose it. Your draws hanging all over the place is unsightly and cumbersome I don't care what grade you climb. BillCoe you seem to have handled the situation properly.

Are you a climber? I have to ask because your post doesn't make any sense. Have you ever bolted a route, cleaned a route, installed an anchor, replaced anchor chains/quicklinks/biners?

By your "logic", anyone who has placed a bolt should expect it to be "salvaged".

The only reason climbing grades have anything to do with this is because... People who climb hard are better people! Duh!

I wasn't there (probably that's a good thing as although I'm fat and old I've been in lots of fights in the course of my life and have a less polite reserve than some) and this isn't my video. As the guy claimed to be from Colorado, the suggestion on cascadeclimbers.com was to put the info where folks from Colorado could view it. The gentlemen who were there that day are all widely known as good people, including Ian who did the video and is posting upthread, this is just another instance of why that is the case.

The guy was in the process of taking 35 draws -- obviously this was NOT a simple matter of semantics regarding draws left behind. What does anybody need with an extra 35 draws? Cash. Those would have been for sale within days on Craigslist or somewhere else.

Well, if people are concerned about their QD's being taken, simply don't leave them. If I stash a pad (I don't) and it gets taken, there can be no crying on my end; I left it there.

Sigh. What is your acceptable time limit for "leaving" your property? Of course you've left things out of sight for periods of time- crashpads or packs while you've walked the base of a crag or used the shitter. You'd probably be upset to find your stuff missing after 5-10min. What about after an hour? 4hrs? Overnight?

Tell us what the official cut-off is between being a thief and "fair game".

And I ain't mad, you're just missing the point. Folks that climb on the Picnic Lunch Wall aren't concerned about their draws being taken because draws USUALLY AREN'T TAKEN. Thus, it is noteworthy when some yahoo is caught swinging around with a stick-clip stealing draws.

I'm just trying to do my part to quell the possible, inner nOOb/klepto lurking in the Mountain Project readership.

I would be interested in hearing from a lawyer, but I assume this is an ethics question and not a legal one. My assumption is that what he was doing was not legally theft. But I am curious where the line is drawn. If someone takes my car parked on a public street it is theft. If I put a $20 bill down on a public street and someone takes it, it is definitely not considered theft. Both are my property and both are left at the same place, but there is a distinction made. I don't want to get into a debate on whether it is right or wrong to leave draws, but I am curious what the legal grounds are for leaving your property on public lands, and whether you are forfeiting your property rights. If I go do an alpine route and I leave my tent at the base, I assume no one has the right to take it. However, do I have the same legal standing if I backpack in 2 weeks before and leave a bunch of gear in the woods? The argument would be the same as for fixed draws... it is hard to do an alpine route carrying all the gear at once, so I stashed some of it... but do I have a right to claim someone that took it is a thief?

Land managers have pretty much said any gear left on routes is considered abandonment of property. As such, a LEO would probably not get involved other than to keep the peace as it is a civil matter. Kind of like when the repo guy gets busted by the "owner" yet has the vehicle jacked up but has not left. The LEO ain't going to do much but keep it civil. Though some might encourage the right thing to be done.

Draws on routes are obviously going to be returned to whether someone is coming back the next afternoon or week. Some are "personal" property while others are "community" property. When a route has draws from top to bottom it is obviously not bootie. If someone is Jonsing to take them down for what ever reason (safety, unsightly, want to use their own draws, etc) then efforts should be made to return them to the "owner". Even if they leave them clipped to the anchors at the top.

Regardless of ones personal feelings on the draws left on routes issue, this douche bag was just helping himself to "free" gear. He is not a climber or part of the climbing community. Just a douche bag that needs to called out and ostracized where ever he may schlep his sorry azz.