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Re: Talk me out of Michalak's Frolic2

Aw perl, to me you'll always be a winner just for abandoning the lure of the metalflake bassboat with 450 hp worth of engines on the transom for the sake of building your own boat. I only keep trying to nudge you towards something like a Ness Yawl because I want you to have some of that sheer amount of extra joy on top you'll discover from having a boat like that. You deserve it, man!

Re: Talk me out of Michalak's Frolic2

I think it's true that most of us over-estimate how well our boats get to weather. I can say, however, that my 16 foot traditionally-rigged boat is much faster to windward than a Frolic 2. Last year's Florida 120, the first 2 days were heavy air, big chop, dead to windward, and in mostly narrow waterways. The first day I started about 4 hours after the fleet, but caught up to them before dark. The second day, I think I was among the fastest boats, and these included a couple pretty slippery ones. The only boat that I'm sure was faster, was a boat that was described to me as a "30 foot peapod"-- a great-looking boat with a powerful sail plan and a hard bimini. I passed Gary's Oaracle near the Gulf Breeze bridge, pointing higher and going much faster.

Naturally, the main point of this post is to brag about my boat. However, the secondary purpose is to say that I really didn't have any idea that this would be the case until I took her out and sailed her against a bunch of other little boats, even though that didn't stop me from bragging about her. Events like the Florida 120 and the Texas 200 are good for finding out what boats can actually do on the water, as opposed to what they can do in their builder's imagination. The grand-daddy of these events, here in the States, is the EC. Gary's Oaracle has done pretty well in that event, and it's a fairly tough one-- 300+ miles in all conditions. Many of the boats suggested as alternatives to the Frolic 2 have not proven themselves in this race, or in similar events, so far as I know.

Anyway, I agree with John Bell. Most of the folks who think their small boats are much better to windward than that Florida Bay track Oaracle posted are probably kidding themselves a little.

Re: Talk me out of Michalak's Frolic2

Trust me, when I was making my pond box my mind was on grander schemes. But you gotta start somewhere and for a fellow who was known to be a certain hazard to the concept of craftsmanship with any sort of implement that exercise was a triumph. I really like Ian's designs and when my skill gets near "moderate" I'll have to give one a whack.

Ive read his clinker ply book at least three times and passages are beginning to make sense. My feeling is that after two more builds I'll be ready to try planking something up. Wouldn't it be cool if bamboo planking were to be had? But first I have to get the hang of plumb, square, and all that. Much as I love my home brewed fleet of pond and sea rowers, they are like their admiral a bit warped.

Then there's that dream that won't die of something like a lug yawl concept like the Billy Ruffian but using the lines and offsets for a 30' Swampscott instead of the St. Pierre..... but first I need to discover what a lug and mizzen are, how to operate them, and so on.

I think this might be the boat. Resale isn't really on my radar. I am also interested in learning more about Wellsford's SCAMP. As well the Tread Lightly is one I admire but don't know of too many that have been built. The "Gizmo" comes to mind but that Skipper's usage and my intended use are somewhat different.

All in all, given the problems I had with two simple builds so far, this one needs to be simple and that means giving up other things. But someday....

Re: Talk me out of Michalak's Frolic2

Have you considered John Welsford's Sweet Pea? It doesn't look like it would be any more difficult to build, has the small cabin and looks like it would fly. A sloop and yawl version are shown. I'd be tempted to make the cabin top look a little more salty thoughhttp://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jw/sweetpea/index.htm

Re: Talk me out of Michalak's Frolic2

Originally Posted by slidercat

I think it's true that most of us over-estimate how well our boats get to weather. I can say, however, that my 16 foot traditionally-rigged boat is much faster to windward than a Frolic 2. Last year's Florida 120, the first 2 days were heavy air, big chop, dead to windward, and in mostly narrow waterways. The first day I started about 4 hours after the fleet, but caught up to them before dark. The second day, I think I was among the fastest boats, and these included a couple pretty slippery ones. The only boat that I'm sure was faster, was a boat that was described to me as a "30 foot peapod"-- a great-looking boat with a powerful sail plan and a hard bimini. I passed Gary's Oaracle near the Gulf Breeze bridge, pointing higher and going much faster.

Naturally, the main point of this post is to brag about my boat. However, the secondary purpose is to say that I really didn't have any idea that this would be the case until I took her out and sailed her against a bunch of other little boats, even though that didn't stop me from bragging about her. Events like the Florida 120 and the Texas 200 are good for finding out what boats can actually do on the water, as opposed to what they can do in their builder's imagination. The grand-daddy of these events, here in the States, is the EC. Gary's Oaracle has done pretty well in that event, and it's a fairly tough one-- 300+ miles in all conditions. Many of the boats suggested as alternatives to the Frolic 2 have not proven themselves in this race, or in similar events, so far as I know.

Anyway, I agree with John Bell. Most of the folks who think their small boats are much better to windward than that Florida Bay track Oaracle posted are probably kidding themselves a little.

Ray is pretty spot on about last year's FL120. In our defense of how long it took to get to the stop on Day 1, we did have the tide against us through the narrowest part of the course. Also, several us us stopped for 90+ minutes at Big Lagoon St. Park. Four hours later would have seen less foul current, I think. Not that I'm demeaning Ray's boat however. I was feeling pretty good about my boat going upwind after the first two days. On day three however, Ray wore my ass out on the 20 mile downwind. His traditional rig out-performed my modern marconi by a large margin. He could sail deeper and maybe little faster than me. Even though Ray left after me, he caught and passed me 5 or 6 miles from the finish. Sailing shorter distance really helps get you there faster.

I think Gary's Oaracle has the better of me downwind due to being longer, lighter, and able to sail very deep. I'm a few percent better upwind.

Just to be humble, I'm posting my own GPS track for last year's FL120. The tacking angles are abysmal, but it must be understood it was pretty windy and choppy which isn't a light centerboarder's best conditions. Also we were sailing against an ebb most of the way as well.

Re: Talk me out of Michalak's Frolic2

Anyway, I agree with John Bell. Most of the folks who think their small boats are much better to windward than that Florida Bay track Oaracle posted are probably kidding themselves a little.

That could well be true with most traditionally rigged small boats - something with which I haven't enough experience with to have an opinion. But I have sailed and raced a whole slew of "modern" rigged dinghies and keelboats, and have called many hundreds of windward laylines - and few, if any, of those (assuming no current) have resembled the tracks in that pic!

Makes one wonder how a square rigger, which could barely point that high in any case, got to weather at all!

As for alternatives, I certainly like the looks of that Welsford Sweet Pea. Looks wise, I also kind of prefer Michalak's Toon 19 to the Frolic 2, as well. About the same size, still multi chined, but with a longer water line. Perhaps the bow might not be as good downwind in waves.Toon 19

Another, easier to build and lighter option might be Bolger's old Cynthia J catboat. Not a sharpie, but hard chine plywood, no ballast, leeboards, bigger cabin than the Frolic 2 or Toon 19, only one set of spars to build.

Re: Talk me out of Michalak's Frolic2

John, you're right about the tide. It really helped me the first day. Still, I think Slider was a little faster to windward as well. On the second day, you left well before I did, and that afternoon on Santa Rosa Sound, I was very slowly reeling you in. In fact, trying to catch you kept me occupied all afternoon, and my mind off the broken bolt in one of my beams. I think if I'd had a couple more miles, I'd have got you. I did catch the Windrider 17, which surprised me a lot. We blew away the Precision 18, also a surprise. But Merlin was the class of the fleet, I think. (And also the biggest boat, I believe.)

I think the sprit-sloop rig has some major advantages for small fast boats that are not yet recognized widely. I caught all kinds of hell for putting that rig on a little cat, but despite her very modest sail area, Slider goes pretty well.

Re: Talk me out of Michalak's Frolic2

I caught the first Windrider, but judging from how much beer those guys drank it wasnt too surprising! I think I passed the other one as well. If you want to talk about leeway, those boats have it in spades.

I don't know for sure if you are faster upwind, but I should give you a little more data to consider. If you look at my track, you can see a couple of places where I reached back and forth a bit for a bit of a break and because I was worried about Scott in the little black coffin scow and waited until I heard he'd been picked up by Charlie and Isabel over the VHF. The Hobie AI tandem and I kept pace together pretty well, but he was pedaling full time. IIRC Merlin (my favorite boat of the week, a 23' 1.5x scale-up of Bolger's Sweet Pea) caught me mostly because I gave up a lot of ground on those breaks, but he did pull away when he got ahead. He clearly made less leeway than me. I felt like I wasn't giving that much on speed, but his extra 5 degrees made good to windward just broke my heart and spirit.

All of this is not to say I think your boat is slow, because it's clearly not. I really don't know if we're close to windward or not. Hopefully we'll get chance to sail in company again so we can try it head to head. Slider is clearly the superior cruising boat and I'd trade with you in a minute. I spent many minutes drooling over the two Sliders in attendance. I'd trade out my boat in favor of Slider in a minute for this year's Everglades Challenge. I honestly think it would be less challenging and more comfortable in Slider compared to my grotty 30 year old DSII "ALOBAR".

Re: Talk me out of Michalak's Frolic2

Yeah, I was knocked out by Merlin too. I wish I'd got a chance to talk to her owner. Someone told me she was a 30 footer, and I took their word for it, as she looked pretty big to me. I have a mental image of her launching out of the first night's anchorage, going to windward like a train. I heard the owner built her in 8 months, which seems pretty amazing.

I think you're right about the Windriders and their foils. They have a shallow molded in keel, and are obviously not at their best to windward, in spite of their rotating masts and fully-battened mains. As I was coming pretty close to Navarre, the first Windrider was way up to windward along the island, where I assume they went to escape the chop. As you know, that last couple of miles before Navarre turned into a reach, and I thought for sure they'd catch me then, but if anything I increased my lead.

Don't be knocking Alobar; she was the second fastest monohull in the event, as far as I could tell, faster than a number of larger boats. That's a slick little boat, and you're clearly a very good sailor. I think the chop that day suited Slider a little better than a light shallow-bodied boat like Alobar. Slider tends to cut through big chop, and when I drew her, I was very concerned about pitching, one of the principle banes of fine-hulled craft. Her hulls were designed to damp out pitching, and along with her low rig, she is very resistant to it.

I'm betting you'll do fine in the EC. Are you going to the Florida 120 this year?

Re: Talk me out of Michalak's Frolic2

Re: FL120

I don't know. The EC is testing my bride's tolerance for solo vacations this year. I'll need to get her to a beach somewhere with no boats other than a brace of kayaks before then if I have any hope of making it.

Do I want to go? Yes!

Back to the topic at hand, Frolic2. I still say if the OP wants her, he should build her. Yes, there are prettier boats with higher performance potential. So what? With Frolic, he could build her in 4-months leisurely evening and weekend work and wind up with solid, simple and seaworthy, fun-to-sail boat. She'd be very inexpensive to build in terms of materials and require little in the way of specialized tools and fancy joinery. The rig is easy to build and the sail is literally an off-the-shelf Windsprint sail available relatively cheaply from Payson and others.

Here's another shot of Oaracle. I'll bet you didn't know she had a carbon fiber mast?

And here is Merlin, the 1.5x Sweet Pea.

And finally here is Alobar, looking a bit like a yard sale.

Last edited by John Bell; 02-23-2011 at 07:06 PM.
Reason: adding pictures

Re: Talk me out of Michalak's Frolic2

Curious about the 3D shape of Frolic2, and wanting to share, here is a pointer to the URL of some quickie lofting I did...

A couple impressions and questions. I wonder about the safety of having Wiley windows on a light weight hull like this which seems prone to knockdown, at the very least one would need to be very strict about closing them tight whenever sailing. I didn't quite understand how the motor well co-exists with the rudder mount, probably one or the other is off-centered, but which? And, that 'five panel' bottom style is certain a signature boat structure of Jim Michalak. (Caprice, etc..) Is there any other designer using that style of panel boat? I am guessing that the twist in the bilge panels near the stem might be tough, but I didn't study the degree of torturing necessary.

Re: Talk me out of Michalak's Frolic2

She really does look great. I think it's the sweet sheer that really makes her stand out. The shear looks perfect from every angle. Whether it was the builder-designer or Bolger's inspiration from Sweat Pea, whoever it was got it just right. That's not at all easy to pull off, and I've tried.

Merlin had a big, ballasted centerboard and a big square fixed rudder on a skeg. The rudder did protrude below the bottom of the hull a fair amount. She probably drew around 18-22" with the board up and that was at the rudder. The rudder and skeg appeared to be ~1/4" flat aluminum plate. IIRC, she may have had some additional internal ballast as well.

She also had a ~6hp Tohatsu in a well mounted forward of the rudder.

Rig is a wooden mast, owner-built, in a tabernacle. It's a simple rig, four stays with no spreaders. Merlin flys a big low-aspect main and what looks to be a ~115% masthead jib on hanks. Not complicated at all.

Talking to the builder-designer, he really only used Bolger's lines for the hull shape and designed everything else himself.

I wish I'd taken photos of the arrangement. The cabin is completely open at the aft end, making the cabin and cockpit one continuous space. The hard dodger could have plastic windows fitted to enclose everything in case of cold or wet. She had two good berths, a small galley with sink and stove, and that's about all I remember.

Only criticism I have of the build is minor: He used plain old sand to make the decks non-skid. And non-skid they are! But they would be hard one's bare feet and knees if you liked to sail that way. Otherwise, I'd say Merlin is about as close to perfect as you could get.

I just found my notes and Merlin's builder is David Ware of Rockport, Texas. Really nice fellow and very patient to explain about his boat.

Re: Talk me out of Michalak's Frolic2

I like Merlin, curious as to how she would tow behind a four banger sedan. Any displacement hull that agrees with a 6hp outboard is probably more than I want to push with the ash breeze even in the deadest of calms. But it does like like a lovely adventure boat. Wouldn't want to try and start the EC with one... I like your OD as well. what does it draft? Might have to keep a lookout for one of those.

Re: Talk me out of Michalak's Frolic2

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

But also like seeks out like. It's not too hard to get a cute girl to go out for a ride in your stunningly beautiful classic lapstrake rowboat. Whereas square boats mostly attract fat old balding retired guys.

Re: Talk me out of Michalak's Frolic2

It's not too hard to get a cute girl to go out for a ride in your stunningly beautiful classic lapstrake rowboat. Whereas square boats mostly attract fat old balding retired guys.

I was talking to a friend yesterday who has recently started doing long distance races in kayaks. He said before he went, he had the idea that everyone was going to be young, bulked up hardbodies. He was shocked that at 43, he was one of the youngest guys there. Practically every competitor was a graybeard. Only a token spouse here and there represented the women.

Looking at the EC challengers, it's about the same. Raids are the pastime of old dudes. At 46, I'm one of the young guys.

My experience is that pontoon boats have a very positive effect on the libido of the fairer sex. Yes, I have a pontoon! Lucky me!

Re: Talk me out of Michalak's Frolic2

That worries me sometimes. Where is the new blood going to come from?

Recently I was looking at a batch of photos and old film that Jim Brown put together about the building of his boat Scrimshaw back in the 60s, and felt a twinge, looking at all those young people enthusiastically building boats and planning to sail away into the sunset.

Re: Talk me out of Michalak's Frolic2

It may well be a problem, Ray. At 42, I am the youngest person on the Island Star's crew by a good 15 years. The local longboat crews are definitely working to find high-school kids to join--and I live in one of the boatiest places around! I love it that young guys like Michael Beckman and Ben Sebens show up on the forum, but they're totally in the minority.

Re: Talk me out of Michalak's Frolic2

Originally Posted by James McMullen

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

But also like seeks out like. It's not too hard to get a cute girl to go out for a ride in your stunningly beautiful classic lapstrake rowboat. Whereas square boats mostly attract fat old balding retired guys.

Plus curvy grown gals! Don't Judge I'm not against pretty boats but for this one, I want to be sailing for a couple of years, as opposed to building for a couple of years. If I see something that looks do-able I might give up a season for a build, but at this stage the quick build holds more allure to me than the having a knockout.

Once I have something that sails and camps, I will be more agreeable to a long build.

ETA - I heard somewhere that it's a mighty poor craftsman that blames his tools.... applicable to this discourse ?

Re: Talk me out of Michalak's Frolic2

Originally Posted by slidercat

That worries me sometimes. Where is the new blood going to come from?

Recently I was looking at a batch of photos and old film that Jim Brown put together about the building of his boat Scrimshaw back in the 60s, and felt a twinge, looking at all those young people enthusiastically building boats and planning to sail away into the sunset.

The new blood will come from the same place it always has come from. Us. It's our job to pass it on.

Re: Talk me out of Michalak's Frolic2

Originally Posted by perldog007

The new blood will come from the same place it always has come from. Us. It's our job to pass it on.

I hope you're right, but skills do die off, sometimes. Even my own kids, mostly grown up now, aren't really enthusiasts. They loved sailing when they were smaller, but at some point, other things became more important to them. They still enjoy going sailing with me, but it seems never to occur to them that they could build boats of their own. Maybe, since they started sailing before they could walk, the whole thing doesn't have the magical aspects for them that it has for me. I didn't discover sailing until I was in my late twenties.

But it could be that once well out of adolescence, they may change their minds. I used to take them camping a lot when they were little, and now my boys have started backpacking again, after a long hiatus.

Re: Talk me out of Michalak's Frolic2

Yeah, not so many years ago I joined a (sea) kayaking club hoping to meet other folks I could hang out with (read:eligible young ladies). Unfortunately, I was easily the youngest adult there, male or female, by many years.

The whitewater group in Colorado had a lot of young people, though . . . .

Keeping teens and college students interested in boating seems unlikely if one has a boring (to a teen) boat. Getting them out on trapeze on a Hobie cat or a 29er, or the like, is a lot more exciting - girl or boy - than hanging out in the cockpit of dad's little cruiser.

As for boatbuilding with kids, if the topic of boats ever comes up, then saying "C'mon, let's build you one" seems like it might be a good start. That way they don't have to think of it themselves, and they might not realize they have some say in the matter. Then pick a design that you can build very fast, before their interest is totally shot!
That's similar to what Grandad did once . . . before I really knew what was going on, I found myself building a dog house - a concept that had never before crossed my mind.

Perldog, flat bottomed skiffs and sharpies have a long history of use in coastal waters - some of them pretty rough. Despite James' bias (due in large part, I believe, to his experience with a number of Bolger's "instant" sharpies), I think you could build a flattie much quicker than a Frolic 2, and it could still fit your requirements. Some of them look darn good, too.

Here's a small add-on that SBrookman put on his sharpie . . . just for his dogs. You could make a bigger house, or go with a design that already has one.

Re: Talk me out of Michalak's Frolic2

Actually, much of my desire to not have my first "Bay Boat" a sharpie comes from rowing and old flat iron skiff and doing the same in an aluminum "Sea Nymph" with a vee bottom in similar conditions. Even though the latter had a flat run to be outboard powered, she was much easier to manage in steeper swells. ( I got to row because our motor quit and I was no longer called a moron for insisting that my home cut oars and oarlocks be added to the obligatory paddle... )

Indeed, near me the Smith Island Crab Skiff and other working Sharpies come to mind. On the Delaware River/Bay the books of Chappelle and Gardner seem to indicate more curvy bottom craft were popular as well.

So far I haven't found to many designs for Oar Auxillary besides the Dovekie, pimped out Potters, Frolic2, Birdwatcher and various spin offs that offer a Cabin as well. While a true sail and oar boat could be rowed in wind and waves, there goes that cabin and I want on of those.

Re: Talk me out of Michalak's Frolic2

Build whatever makes you happy but my suggestion is to NOT waste your time building a boat that you think that maybe your wife might possibly like, maybe. I can't think of a bigger waste of time. If you really, truly absolutely want to build a boat that your wife will go on, then the very first step is to sit down with her and ask her what she would like to see in a boat that she would go out on. Ask her if she would ever, ever even consider doing an overnight sail with you, and then ask her specific questions about what she would like, like standing headroom, an enclosed head etc. etc.

Build that.

If you can't build that, then build something that YOU would like to sail, and maybe she'll come along once in a while for a few hours.

BTW, just to be a sexist pig, in my experience when women say they want to have a bathroom they can sit down in, us guys see something like a porta-potti lashed down to the floor with a curtain separating it from the elements. It may or may not be level. Women tend to envision something warm, comfortable, that doesn't smell bad, stays level all the time and has nice wallpaper.

Haha. I'm a pig. HOWEVER, it would be wise to ask your wife many thorough and complete questions before devoting many months and a couple of thousand dollars in building something IF YOU WANT HER TO SPEND TIME ABOARD IT.

Re: Talk me out of Michalak's Frolic2

Thanks Alan, My wife does go out with me in my little boats at the ponds. The cuddy is to me a built in tent that sleeps one and possibly a way to extend day trips, even pond excursions by not having to head to shore for a head call. So if it's built she will go out in it, she spent an afternoon in my Big Tortoise with me, has ridden around the bay off Woodland beach in the GLD on a calm day and frequently acts as "ballast with management capabilities" on my inflatable.

Whether or not she'll find the idea of the "Type III Marine Sanitation Device" acceptable remains to be seen, but most chicks who will camp out and away from the touron grounds will be okay with that set up.

Perhaps I should have pointed out, that I would also appreciate not having to make landfall for a head call when there's no refuge from public view.

In short, I like the record ( E.C. and other events of the design ) the idea of a simple rig sailboat that can be a camp cruiser, moved by oars in the calm, can have a motor but only needs a small one, land on the beach, have storage for gear and a place to sleep...... I do want to consider other designs that might meet my needs, because believe it or not, the looks don't do it for me.

Wouldn't stop me from building or sailing one, but if I found something that meets the same needs which I liked better, then why not consider that?

So far the only alternatives that appeal to me are sail and oar boats, which means losing the cabin/cuddy thingie. If I went that route I would want something like a Ness Yawl, but might end up with a 14'10" (LOB) banker with a sprit rig for ease of build. I do really like my hot rod rowing dory, and one a little bigger that I could stand up in would be okay for a camp cruiser, you just have to rig a tent and mosquito netting....

The lark dory is appealing, but at the end of the day I would probably just build a bank dory and rig a shelter. Feel like I need a few more builds before I try to plank a double ender, so I'm looking for sheet ply construction.

Re: Talk me out of Michalak's Frolic2

Sam Devlin has a camp cruiser called Egret which is super simple.

He's also got several small cabin sailboats with that same simple v-bottom hardchine skiff shape like the Eider. Also look as Nancy's China and Winter Wren II, all of which are small enough to use oar auxilliary. These boats really aren't any harder to build than a Banks type dory, but they start out with much more of a sailboat-optimized shape than the rowing dory shape that has so much less initial stability. Honestly, they aren't really any harder to build than that gawdawful Frolic either. Stitch & glue construction is the woodbutcher's best friend.