I originally heard this idea put forth by Matt Dillahunty, and I thought it was interesting enough to warrant a thread here as well as a discussion on a debate group I frequent.

According to the book of revelation "He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

Now, hypothetically speaking, if heaven was real, and if I were in a position where I was eligible to go to heaven, I still technically wouldn't be able to go. There are many people to whom I looked up to who are now supposedly burning in hell. If I found out that was true, I'd be deeply saddened by that fact, but there's no pain in heaven. What then would happen to the pain and sadness I feel for those suffering needlessly? Unless god did something to change me, like make me stop caring about those people suffering, or erase my memory of those people, then I'd be in pain, but there's no pain in heaven. If god does change my emotions or my memory, then I'm not even "me" anymore, I'd merely be a replica that has been tampered with. By that logic, I, as I am today, could never go to heaven.

So, does anyone think it's possible for them to get into heaven? I will say it up front that there are undoubtedly some exceptions, such as people who are incapable of feeling painful emotions, but I'd be interested in figuring out if there are more exceptions or entirely different viewpoints that I haven't thought of.

"By all means let's be open minded, but not so open minded that our brains fall out."

Well, first of all, I don´t believe there is an afterlife. But, if I understand the Christian philosophy correctly, people go to hell only if they sinned in this life and haven´t repented. That practically means that if you do something bad and repent for that (feel sorry for it intrinsically) you´ll go to heaven, but if you do harm and don´t repent (don´t feel sorry) you´ll go to hell. So, in this case, I think all the people who have conscious will go to heaven because all people who have consciuos feel sorry if they did something wrong. The only people who don´t feel sorry and don´t repent are sociopaths (and narcissists), but they are not evan able to feel sorry because of their unique mental structure (they are wired differently). So, my question is, do sociopaths go to hell? How can they go to hell if they have no conscience and thus cannot feel what is right and wrong? Are they an exception?

I hate to say it, but I don't think it exists. When you're dead, you're dead that's it. Where is this place if it exists? no one can explain that.

I would like to have faith that it exists just as much as the next person, but just not enough evidence. regardless, I try and do the right thing in case it does exist. would rather go there than hell of course. which brings up that... where is hell then?

I don't think it exists either, Scott, nor do I think the scriptures are true. This is strictly speculation. It seems to me that even if the scriptures were true (which seems unlikely), there are a lot of people who won't really be going to heaven, but rather those people would have to be altered by god so that they no longer feel pain stemming from the knowledge that people are suffering forever in hell, as there's no pain in heaven. Once a person has been altered in such a way, can they really be considered the same person as who they once were? I, personally, wouldn't consider myself to be "me" if I stopped caring about endless suffering.

And, for the record, faith isn't based on evidence. Don't wish for faith, wish for a good reason to believe in things. Considering that you try to do the right thing regardless, you definitely deserve to be given a good reason to believe in something at the very least.

"By all means let's be open minded, but not so open minded that our brains fall out."

Apothecary, this is very interesting. I love the logic. Let's talk about this; I never thought of this perspective.

The reason, I suppose, I never thought of it from this perspective is that I don't believe Revelation 21:3,4 is talking about heaven; I believe it's talking about on the earth.

The Bible actually teaches that humans were intended by God to live on Earth in paradise for eternity. This is what he had in mind when he created humankind in the Garden of Eden. God's purpose never changes. Humans did not stop God's will from taking place by becoming sinners, but prolonged it a few thousand years. God's will can never be stopped, I mean, he's God.

The Bible also teaches only 144,000 go to heaven (Rev. 7:4-8).

As for hell, the Bible doesn't teach that people go to hell. Churches teach that people go to hell, so that it scares people into coming to church. It wouldn't even make sense that a "loving Father" would let his children burn in hell. Ecclesiastes 9 states that the dead are "conscious of nothing at all" which is proof right there that they are in neither heaven nor hell.

When the Bible promises people will live forever on Earth, this is a paradise. This is why, as you quoted from Revelation 21, there will be no suffering of any kind. It will be paradisaic, to complete God's purpose to make the planet Eden-like and for perfect people to inhabit it.

Since there is no hell, according to the Bible, that will not be a concern for you, or for anyone who is concerned with those who suffer. The wicked will be destroyed, yes, but not in a cruel manner in fire or with pain. And everyone has a chance to survive. Isiah 65 explains that we will not think about the past we have had in this rotten system of things: 17 “For here I am creating new heavens and a new earth; and the former things will not be called to mind, neither will they come up into the heart."

I think this covers the question. Is there anything I did not address?

I have been reading from the apocrypha the Gospel of Thomas (I am a Theist, non-religious) and there it says: 49) Jesus said, "Blessed are the solitary and elect, for you will find the Kingdom. For you are from it, and to it you will return."Also it matters not what religion you follow or even if you are an atheist - Kindness and compassion and above all Love, these are the key to Heaven. Many first hand NDE accounts confirm this. Read for yourself here : http://www.near-death.com/

No, sadly it is not possible. You best live your life to the fullest now while you can. Love your family and friends with all of your heart. For one day it will be your last and none of us have any true idea if what lays ahead after that. (My bet is nothing except your body eventually returning to the earth.) I'm sure knowing you've lived a full life and never having to regret much when on your death bed will be comforting for both you and your family.

Maybe when people get in heaven they understand that each one gets what they deserve. It's like they say: you reap what you sow. If there are people in hell it's because they deserve to suffer. Not for all eternity, but for some time. At least until they've payed for their sins. So maybe in an hypothetical heaven this knowledge would prevent you from suffering. Or maybe you'd still feel bad for them. It all comes down to what you do with your "sufering". Buddha used to teach that pain is inevitable, but suffering is optional. Anyway I do believe in heaven, but more as a state of mind than an actual place.

I think heaven is an idea born out of people's desire for justice since this world's so devoid of it but as it's described in the bible as a floating city paved with jewels(Revelation) prepared for the faithful with no more tears and endless praise I think is not everyone's idea of a perfect place. A person's idea of paradise varies according to the preferences he developed in life. For example, a dog lover would like to see all his/her dogs in heaven and will not prescribe to a version of heaven without them. A person who loves a specific type of weather would love that to be the atmosphere of heaven. In the Biblical times, life was very harsh and people just wanted a place with no hunger, pain, death, an or war. As civilization advanced we have more wants than what was laid out in the Bible. In the Old Testament the people just wanted a stable kingdom ( The Jews). There was no talk of heaven or hell, mostly issues of law and order and worship and blessings were discussed because it was a chaotic time with numerous warring tribes. Heaven to them was a powerful kingdom, or to a head of a family lots of land/cows/children and a long life ( Job). The New testament was different in that it discussed Heaven because in that perspective there was order but still no relief from pain and suffering under the Romans. So Heaven was an alternative since power and peace were now not the only measure of God's love but eternal happiness in the afterlife.Even now we make different versions of Heaven custom fit for our tastes. I will live my life to the fullest and act in a way that I'd be worthy of a Heaven if there was one. If there isn't at least I helped make this life more like paradise for others

I definitely agree with those saying there is no heaven. I was raised in the Roman Catholic private school for 11 years of my life. I truly believe churches are businesses. Right and wrong/ moral code are taught to try and save the world as much as possible from barbaric chaos, or at least cut it down as minimally as possible (murder and thieving). And the pretty thought of heaven, is trying to stifle in inevitable fear most everyone has of dying. Hell, a scary threat trying to prevent wrong doing, so we can all be happy with peace on earth. We are just light bulbs on the earth, kept alive and moving by energy. the moment we stop recharging (eating, sleeping) or as soon as we get sick or old, its lights out. And that's a hard pill to swallow..... cue religion.

bunnysmom25 wrote:We are just light bulbs on the earth, kept alive and moving by energy. the moment we stop recharging (eating, sleeping) or as soon as we get sick or old, its lights out. And that's a hard pill to swallow..... cue religion.

Yeah bunnysmom, you've sure got that right! I'd like nothing better than to truly believe in an afterlife, it would be so comforting, but logically speaking that seems completely ridiculous. Especially in the face of the science we have today. The notion of a heaven where everything is peaches and cream in my opinion is nothing more than a crutch for the weak who can't swallow that pill...

I think that religion once served (and perhaps still does) the purpose of providing a good moral compass for people and communities but yeah the fairy tale non-sense is of little value and in my opinion terribly misguiding. There's a number of youtube documentaries on just how controlling and repressive the Catholic church has been in the past. The Church instilled massive amounts of guild into their believers, and prevented the free speech of non-believers. The thought actually sickens me...

Mine as well, being it's only my third or so day here I wouldn't want to offend anyone, because I'm still hopeful to get responses on my postings. Definitely not trying to tick anyone off. I'm just dumbfounded by those who hold such strong faith. I wish I were capable, like I was throughout my youth when I knew nothing but blinded devotion to the church. I don't want to offend anyone either and I'm more than open to debate because I'd love to believe otherwise.

bunnysmom25 wrote:Mine as well, being it's only my third or so day here I wouldn't want to offend anyone, because I'm still hopeful to get responses on my postings... ...I'm more than open to debate because I'd love to believe otherwise.

Hats off to you bunnysmom for being open to debate and looking for responses to your postings. I came here looking for same things but unfortunately I've been somewhat disappointed so far. I experienced the same thing, only worse actually, at Susan Cain's forum (the author of Quiet). It was Susan's book actually that helped me discover that I wasn't just some kind of freak that had an aversion to too much social contact but that Introversion is a normal part of society. I learned much about myself, and to be honest that knowledge set me free. Her forum wasn't a total loss though. I had a discussion with one guy who commented on a discussion I was having with a third person who couldn't understand why I would go to concerts and party's. The commenter suggested that perhaps my makeup was closer to being an Ambivert than an Introvert. After some reflection on that I decided that he was indeed correct, I'm kind of in the middle of Introversion and Extroversion.

So as far as the debate on "heaven" and "faith" goes for the most part I can only offer you arguments that the Bible is the greatest story every told. My experience though is that discussing it can become very heated. People don't like to have their life long beliefs crushed and often revert to ad hominem attacks instead of presenting a good argument in favour of their position. I will say however that I have had a few unexplainable experiences in my lifetime which would seem to have been of a supernatural nature. I don't believe any of them were co-incidental because of their circumstances. It seems that most people have had similar experiences. I would love to understand them better but there just doesn't seem to be a way to do that.

Pathfinder wrote:Hats off to you bunnysmom for being open to debate and looking for responses to your postings. I came here looking for same things but unfortunately I've been somewhat disappointed so far......... The commenter suggested that perhaps my makeup was closer to being an Ambivert than an Introvert. After some reflection on that I decided that he was indeed correct, I'm kind of in the middle of Introversion and Extroversion.

I'm just wondering how active this forum is?? I've logged on everyday since I joined (I mean maybe I'm just being too enthusiastic?) but I've only been graced with two responders. I don't want to say I'm disappointed yet but idk. This is the first forum I came across, I didn't keep looking though maybe it wouldn't hurt. I've never even heard of the term Ambivert so maybe that's something I'll look into. I feel like I would fall under that category.And as for the super natural, I've always wanted so badly for something to come up in my life. My family has had a few anomalies that they swear by but I've just never been so lucky.My aunt who to this day is a die hard Catholic, had a dream one night in which she was standing in her bathroom naked with both arms outstretched, then bent her left arm at the elbow so her hand was touching her breast and she felt a lump. She woke and thought it strange so she went through the exact motions of the dream IRL and she found the lump. She went to the doctor because of it and was able to catch the breast cancer in time. She SWEARS it was God warning her. Another aunt on the same super religious side of the family swears by a bad ouija board experience she had in college.

bunnysmom25 wrote:I'm just wondering how active this forum is?? I've logged on everyday since I joined ...

Well I guess it depends on what you consider active. There seems to be big gaps in time between postings and as a result I started checking a lot less frequently. In fact I haven't been back for months. That's not to say that people haven't posted, it just that I was finding that people weren't posted anything that I was interested in or found intriguing. I was hoping for a lot more intellectual discussion on Introversion and how it effects our lives as well as other topics of course. What I've discovered however is that there seems to a fair number of people who are substantially debilitated by their introversion and who are looking a fix instead of discussing the various aspects and to discover there own. To be honest I was surprised by that, and also saddened. BTW, I've not received a whole lot of responses to my posts either so don't feel like it's you personally. I guess perhaps it's part of who were are...

Question: Do you feel guilty for questioning your faith and former beliefs or relieved or something else?

Another Question: You said, "as for the super natural, I've always wanted so badly for something to come up in my life". Why is that? What do you hope to get from a given experience? Are you hoping to find a reason to believe again, or are you looking for a source of wonderment and something to ponder?

Most of my experiences, say a half dozen or so, I haven't forgotten because I think about them often and wonder what they truly mean. As far as dreams go, your Aunt's experience is certainly bizarre and suggestive, but personally I would stop short of a connection with a "God". I mean if there is a God why would she/he help your Aunt and not the hundreds of thousands of others who suffer and die from the disease (my Father and Aunt included)? Some would argue that your Aunt may destined to do something great in the future. I would argue that if she needed saving, "God" wouldn't have allowed the cancer to develop in the first place.

The night of my father's death, I had a dream were he came to me and said that "everything is going to be alright". It was so real with so much detail. Very comforting it was, but too co-incidental for me to logically consider it anything but a dream. I believe that dream to be nothing more than how the mind tries to deal with traumatic events. Do I wish and even hope that that dream really meant something? You bet! But sadly in my heart I just can't. As a final note. I have not had a dream like that since.

I think I realized early on that I was overly shy then learned how to more appropriately identify myself. I know there has never been a fix because I definitely looked for one when i hit ages 16-18. I have disliked being introvert, but it hasn't so much crippled me. Just left me as an extreme over thinker, like what if this had been done differently, what would have been the outcome if I were to of speak up and say this etc. I've never been around enough like minded people who are willing to discuss how being an introvert has had an effect on their life.

I don't feel guilty for questioning former beliefs but I don't feel relief from disowning them either. I think I'm super bias when it come to Catholisim and my experience with it. Looking back on it, right or wrong I feel as if my private school days played a huge role in my introversion. I attended from PK3 till the 8th grade. I don't live in a large city, so we were the only private school around. In all those years the biggest my class ever was, was 12 total kids. We lost some through the years and gained some new but my class never grew by much, 5 of the other students I had spent every class every hour every day with for the better of 9 years. In comparison, public schools ranged from 15- 25 different kids in each class (different kids in your math class, than in your biology class etc).The faith was all I was exposed to, so I never questioned it. I grew up having to only socialize with a small handful of people a day. I was in a tiny bubble, and SUPER sheltered and shy. When headed to public school for High school, I was like a deer in head lights. It was so overwhelming, I was literally frightened. I had to start picking out clothes everyday, even though I was used to wearing a uniform for the last 11 years. Kids would make fun if you wore the same thing twice and I didn't understand it. Everyone had already made their cliques from years past, and a didn't have any classes with anyone I knew. So I just faded to the back and survived all for years only making two friends along the way who were life changing. I pulled the classic catholic girl thing where you go nuts after being so sheltered. I found out meanings of words I'd NEVER heard of before like gay and horny etc, I was exposed to weed, saw porn for the first time, made out with a few guys under the bleachers... Now that I've rambled on, IN SHORT I wonder why on earth catholic school didn't prepare me for the real world. Religion just kept me under this huge rock that was bound to shifted over time. It took so many years from me, when other kids my age were learning how to socialize with tons of other kids and being faced with right and wrong choices from younger ages. Catholic beliefs were literally shoved down my throat and I knew NOTHING else. I hold a lot of resentment towards churches for that alone. Now seeing corruption in tons of churches and being exposed to other ideas through documentaries like Zeitgeist, I don't feel like I'm missing anything and don't feel guilty. I never lost the core foundation of my morality, but I threw the idea of hell out the window.

I have always hoped I could experience something super natural because it would be awesome to prove that something greater did exist even if its not by the bibles words exactly. Even astrological, as far as we've come with science. I'd kill to witness any sort of being greater or just different than us. And not different like beetles and swordfish, I want to see different like a big green alien walking around

pathfinder wrote: The night of my father's death, I had a dream were he came to me and said that "everything is going to be alright". It was so real with so much detail. Very comforting it was, but too co-incidental for me to logically consider it anything but a dream. I believe that dream to be nothing more than how the mind tries to deal with traumatic events.

Dreams just leave me bewildered!! I don't get to experience them often and I've never been so lucky to have one so meaningful. But proof of god? I don't think so either. Our own intuition trying to help us when we need it or like you put it, just the mind trying to deal with traumatic events.

Update: I've recently learned that Revelation 7:2, 3 says that there is only room for 144,000 souls in heaven and that God will/has choose/chosen who is eligible. I'm guessing all of us are pretty much out of luck considering there's over 7.4 billion people on earth now... There are lots of interpretations and arguments regarding what these Revelations really mean, this is mine... If there is any truth to any of it.