Not sure that we are forcing "our" values on anyone. I'm merely saying, it is a part of the game. I don't ask Rockstar to put more nudity in GTA4 cause it is too mellow, or ask to put Mario into some Abercrombie gear cause he should look cooler when saving the princess, or to put sunglasses on Epic Mickey since most artists wear sunglasses as some time or another. Just because something I want, that would add a more enjoyable atmosphere for me looks appealing, does not mean the game designer has to revert back to something that was a mistake to begin with.

Had tabards always been a reward for being exalted and not the bullet train to BECOME exalted, this would not even be an issue. Blizz knows they F'd up with a Tabard-for-Rep system and would be hard pressed to reintroduce it. If anything, they should reverse the Wrath and Cata tabards that allow rep gain to instead be a reward rather than a route. City tabards, I can maybe see those working, especially for your race. But to just toss on a tabard and grind grind grind a dungeon that has zero bearing on the group is kinda silly. Blizz knows that now and probably caved with the commendations just to make a peace offering with the tabard users.

My personal view, is right in line with the game view (minus the disaster that was Cataclysm), so I am not pressing anything on anyone. I'm saying play the game for what it is, and if there is some aspect you don't like, simply don't do it. Dailies are hardly required for anything more than rep and lore anyway.

You didn't even read my post so I dunno why you bothered replying. Never once did I say bring but WOLK style instant reps that you blitz through dungeons, not once. Even though imo that design is vastly better then the MOP design which is IMO total garbage that people are eating with a smile. They're recycling shit quest content every day and serving it pretending that it's "endgame content". It's not. Lets top pretending it is and maybe figure out real ways to get people interested in being outside of a major city then holding rewards random behind mindless poorly designed daily quest grinds. ANd tell you what, DAILY QUESTS HAVE NO BEARING ON THE GROUP! It's deliver me 6 cow assholes while murdering 30 tentacle monsters and collecting 6 bags of feces and coming back to me. It's no different from doing dungeons and gaining rep beyond being way more time consuming and way less inclusive of people with limited play times and people who want to spend their time doing group activities. Group daily questing isn't fun, it's a chore. Making this GAME feel like a second job is the absolute worst game design they could go with and it's what led to my entire guild quitting during cata and I suspect looking at the sub numbers, we weren't alone.

And if you think dailies shouldn't have anything but lore and rep then they should remove valor gear vendors from the reps. But they don't. They put them there and made them better then LFR gear so people would want them. Then act surprised when people want them but don't want to have to burn their $15 a month spending every day doing the most limited, weakest, and dull part of the game. It's about them getting us to play as long as possible with the minimum amount of money expended by them creating things for us to do. That's all daily questing gating is. So fine, let me spend my $15 a month doing something FUN to get the valor rewards. Not this awful garbage questing

Almost all of MoP's systems, including the daily grind for rep, exist BECAUSE Blizzard listened to player complaints in Cata, and to a lesser extent Wrath. The players got exactly what they asked for. Except now we have to deal with the people who want to go back, and don't care a bit about the reasons why this was done in the first place.

Daily quests aren't content. It's copy/pasted code from one of the other 5000+ quests I've done in this game, not including the daily quests. All of them are the exact same thing. They offer no variety in gameplay, locale. Look, adding the stupid Molten Front in Cata didn't stop people from dropping subs. In fact, that daily grind is what finally burned me out on the game and made me walk away for over a year and this same moronic insistence on relying on a terrible gameplay mechanic like daily questing to artificially extend the content.

Also, why does it have to stop because you got what you wanted while taking away the things I like? Sorry, it doesn't work that way. When people whine something away in the game that people like that's not end of story. We're gonna fight to get it back and if it doesn't happen people unsub and blizz does it anyway. This moronic notion of "IT HAS TO BE DAILY QUESTS" serves no one at all. Give me options to do something that is FUN to gain the rep. Not hold it ransom behind the weakest mechanic of the game.

Almost every blue post on this site contains blues replying to people not responding to the daily quest grind. They've now had to add two additive measures because the MOP Daily quest design was the wrong way to go and it continues to be a mistake and continues to not be what the playbase wants EXCLUSIVELY

Almost every blue post on this site contains blues replying to people not responding to the daily quest grind. They've now had to add two additive measures because the MOP Daily quest design was the wrong way to go and it continues to be a mistake and continues to not be what the playbase wants EXCLUSIVELY

And I have no problem at all with them doing so. Options are not a bad thing. But going back to the system where a player could put on a tabard, ignore the rest of the game, and still gets the same rewards in the same amount of time as someone who participates in more than just one aspect of the game WOULD be a very bad thing. That is what all those blue posts keep trying to explain.

If Blizzard could figure out a system for rep that works like Valor does now, that would be perfect. One could, in theory, reach valor cap by doing nothing besides running heroics. Or only doing scenarios. Or only doing dailies. You get valor for raiding as well, but cannot cap out that way. The fastest way would be a combination of all of those. Rep should work the exact same way.

All this complaining is simply further proof that Blizzard could send each and every player a real-life wish-granting flying unicorn carrying a solid gold plate of chocolate chip cookies wrapped in hundred dollar bills, and someone would whine that Blizzard sucks for not letting them choose oatmeal raisin.

Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking

If your guild demands you slip into an elephants butt and force yourself out in a regurgation then you can't blame Blizzard for supplying the elephant.

Not sure that we are forcing "our" values on anyone. I'm merely saying, it is a part of the game. I don't ask Rockstar to put more nudity in GTA4 cause it is too mellow, or ask to put Mario into some Abercrombie gear cause he should look cooler when saving the princess, or to put sunglasses on Epic Mickey since most artists wear sunglasses as some time or another. Just because something I want, that would add a more enjoyable atmosphere for me looks appealing, does not mean the game designer has to revert back to something that was a mistake to begin with.

Had tabards always been a reward for being exalted and not the bullet train to BECOME exalted, this would not even be an issue. Blizz knows they F'd up with a Tabard-for-Rep system and would be hard pressed to reintroduce it. If anything, they should reverse the Wrath and Cata tabards that allow rep gain to instead be a reward rather than a route. City tabards, I can maybe see those working, especially for your race. But to just toss on a tabard and grind grind grind a dungeon that has zero bearing on the group is kinda silly. Blizz knows that now and probably caved with the commendations just to make a peace offering with the tabard users.

My personal view, is right in line with the game view (minus the disaster that was Cataclysm), so I am not pressing anything on anyone. I'm saying play the game for what it is, and if there is some aspect you don't like, simply don't do it. Dailies are hardly required for anything more than rep and lore anyway.

Whats wrong with the tabards syatem. You do dailies, let them do tabards - problem solved.

And I have no problem at all with them doing so. Options are not a bad thing. But going back to the system where a player could put on a tabard, ignore the rest of the game, and still gets the same rewards in the same amount of time as someone who participates in more than just one aspect of the game WOULD be a very bad thing. That is what all those blue posts keep trying to explain.

If Blizzard could figure out a system for rep that works like Valor does now, that would be perfect. One could, in theory, reach valor cap by doing nothing besides running heroics. Or only doing scenarios. Or only doing dailies. You get valor for raiding as well, but cannot cap out that way. The fastest way would be a combination of all of those. Rep should work the exact same way.

Just because the blues say it doesn't make it right. They say a lot of things and come to learn better ways when they are proven wrong about the wants and needs of the playerbase.

If you want reps to be special and magical and only things that people who enjoy dailies can have, then don't put valor rewards behind them. Pretty simple. But while they're gating valor rewards that used to be available just for valor, then only dailies as a means to obtain them is not acceptable and it has never been the standard while I've been playing and it should not be the new standard and it is, in my opinion, completely inferior game design.

ANd here is the thing, some parts of the game aren't fun. Some parts don't appeal to a lot of people. I like to run dungeons and raid. I find questing a boring chore. But gear I want and need in some cases when RNG fails me(which is not uncommon as one should see by the amount of blue posts about people complaining about RNG) is now locked behind a part of the game I dispese. Do you PVE to get PVP gear? No. Do you PVP to get PVE gear? No. So why do I have to quest to get dungeon and raid gear. Easy answer is, I shouldn't have to. The old design of earning emblems/valor and going to a merchant with the gear in my city was superior. Having it those rewards be involved with the story isn't inherently inferior but locking them exclusively behind daily quests is inherently inferior then having them just be available.

I've proposed numerous ways to involve the reputations and the story combined with using a tabard as means to gain rep that don't involved having to slug through a daily quest grind. Which is IMO terrible game design

Whats wrong with the tabards syatem. You do dailies, let them do tabards - problem solved.

If you are asking what I think is wrong with tabards, you might have missed my post that you quoted.

Blizz knows they F'd up with a Tabard-for-Rep system and would be hard pressed to reintroduce it.

Essentially, what is wrong with tabards is this: (quoting below so people don't miss the point or try to misinterpret what I say to suit their position)

Tabard rep grinding puts people back in dungeons, and away from the world. Examples:

- Blizz made ground mounts only (instead of flying immediately like in Cata) to immerse the player in the world.
- Blizz moved JP/VP reps for this season out to the wall near Dread Wastes so you had to go out in the world to get your gear.
- Blizz removed tabard for rep to keep people from grinding dungeons, and put them out in the world to gain rep by working with the faction that they were gaining rep for, not just saying the grinds in BRD had ANYTHING at all to do with the Wildhammer Clan.
- Blizz has not provided tomes of flight for alts (yet or maybe never) as a way to get EVERY character to be immersed in Pandaria content.
- Blizz introduced commendations at Revered (much the way tabards were for exalted in previous expansions for rep) to allow increased rep gain for accounts.

In short, they know the Cata model was a mistake and allowed people to blaze through content and unsub for a year before the new expac. In this model, people who want to play, have to play at a structured and (somewhat lengthy) pace to extend subscriptions and keep people from sitting around being BORED for MONTHS before the next expac. By making dailies this way, people are exploring other facets of the game and not just rushing to raid. This is how they intended it, and I for one agree with them.

You do not have to like or share my opinion, but just as I respect others are entitled to their opinion, I am simply showing why the idea of asking is not sound when things are actually working as intended.

Just because the blues say it doesn't make it right. They say a lot of things and come to learn better ways when they are proven wrong about the wants and needs of the playerbase.

If you want reps to be special and magical and only things that people who enjoy dailies can have, then don't put valor rewards behind them. Pretty simple. But while they're gating valor rewards that used to be available just for valor, then only dailies as a means to obtain them is not acceptable and it has never been the standard while I've been playing and it should not be the new standard and it is, in my opinion, completely inferior game design.

ANd here is the thing, some parts of the game aren't fun. Some parts don't appeal to a lot of people. I like to run dungeons and raid. I find questing a boring chore. But gear I want and need in some cases when RNG fails me(which is not uncommon as one should see by the amount of blue posts about people complaining about RNG) is now locked behind a part of the game I dispese. Do you PVE to get PVP gear? No. Do you PVP to get PVE gear? No. So why do I have to quest to get dungeon and raid gear. Easy answer is, I shouldn't have to. The old design of earning emblems/valor and going to a merchant with the gear in my city was superior. Having it those rewards be involved with the story isn't inherently inferior but locking them exclusively behind daily quests is inherently inferior then having them just be available.

I've proposed numerous ways to involve the reputations and the story combined with using a tabard as means to gain rep that don't involved having to slug through a daily quest grind. Which is IMO terrible game design

It is beginning to sound more and more like you are simply focused on your dislike of daily quests rather than coming up with a viable solution that incorporates all aspects of game play, such as I suggested in my most recent post.

The tabard system of Wrath and Cata failed because, even though there were other options available, grinding dungeons was by far the most efficient and rewarding way to gain rep. Therefore that is all anyone did. The other options might as well have not existed, because even people who despised that gameplay style did it because it was the best way by far. Valor only being available from dungeons and raids contributed to this.

Blizzard did an excellent job of fixing the Valor problem by spreading it out among a wide variety of activities, all of which allow you to reach cap on their own without the need to participate in anything you do not want to. But none of them are so efficient that they render the others effectively useless. The more types of activity you participate in, the faster you reach cap.

Where Blizzard missed, which we both agree on, is locking valor gear behind rep and then (again) tying that rep to only one activity. A better design would have been to mirror the format used for valor gains, such that it is possible to achieve the needed rep gains through multiple activities, none of which vastly outpace any other, with the result being that participating in as many activities as time and personal desire allow becomes the most efficient way to acquire rep. Blizzard is slowly moving toward a system like that but I think it shortsighted of them to have already come up with an ideal solution and applied it to a separate but similar system, yet with rep create a problem identical to the one they just solved with valor by having it only available from one source.

All this complaining is simply further proof that Blizzard could send each and every player a real-life wish-granting flying unicorn carrying a solid gold plate of chocolate chip cookies wrapped in hundred dollar bills, and someone would whine that Blizzard sucks for not letting them choose oatmeal raisin.

Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking

If your guild demands you slip into an elephants butt and force yourself out in a regurgation then you can't blame Blizzard for supplying the elephant.

Was actually thinking Worgen, Goblin, and Pandaren. But still, they are clearly superior choices and yet people take the other ones.

Yes, your comparison is wrong.

People tend to identify with their character so they pick what they like the most, not what performs the best (in majority). Where in-game, people will take the path which brings them to the goal faster, almost every single time. So, reputation tabards would be used 99.9% of the time instead of actually doing dailys.

EDIT: I'm a working father, with a job from 7am to 15pm (have to wake up at 5:30am, get home at 16:20pm), with 2 kids, still exalted with everything about 1 month ago and almost done with all the raids on heroic. You wont see me complain about dailys, cause at least it is content, it might get boring, but at least there is something. Cataclysm was standing in Orgrimmar waiting for raid after 2 months of it's release. This is way better, requires more time, give more game play, keeps me entertained longer.

WoW is my hobby, aside other things, I make time for my hobbies, without neglectc, my family, friends and job.

When you champion a faction you are out in the world doing good deeds for others on behalf of the faction you are championing thus improving the way the world views the faction. Thus it is only normal that you gain in stature (rep) with them the more things you do when championing them.

That's a lovely way to look at it, but not remotely realistic. These factions are not vying for a title in a popularity contest, they are trying to accomplish some specific goal that would benefit their own faction.

It makes no sense that they only care if you take out X mob in instance A ONLY. It however makes perfect sense they would reward you for bettering there image around the world rather than just helping them with there internal problem as this would lead to more people learning about them and more members joining and championing there faction.

The only faction that would stand to gain or even care about all sorts of victories in Pandaria are the Shado-Pan, whose goal is to protect Pandaria. The Klaxxi have very specific goals in mind (dethroning the queen); why would they care about just anything the player does?

What you posted is the equivalent of saying no one cares about there county's Olympic team at the olympics even if they are wearing there contrys jersey because the events are happening in another country!

This would be a great analogy if we were talking about patch 3.2 and the Argent Tournament.

Originally Posted by Mordredofmia

Getting people out in the world isn't a better design objectively. People like seeing other people run around in the backround of their screen. Thats great for them, but being one of those people running around doing menial tasks just so someone else can see me in the backround while they are playing sucks and is is absolutely not objectively a better design.

It really is, though. Are dailies the best way of doing so? Arguably yes, arguably no. But they do accomplish the goal to some extent, so dailies are objectively better for these design goals.

The reason people don't go out in the world is because there ain't shit to do out there. Locking rewards behind crappy dailies isn't a solution it's a finger in the dam. If they want people out in the world then they need to design us a reason to be there that is fun and rewarding.

Let me get this straight. They are going to allow you to gain rep with a faction by doing a heroic and/or scenario, but only...once....per...day.

And this is different from just adding another daily, how? Do they really not grasp the definition of what a daily is?

Difference being this is a rep boost, not daily. And when you're just starting out, it can provide gear upgrades as well.

"Oh, who does my hair? You might have heard of my stylist. It's called the Void!"
"No matter how much you plead I will not sprout tentacles or turn into a giant eyeball. Well, I might. But not because you asked!"

It is beginning to sound more and more like you are simply focused on your dislike of daily quests rather than coming up with a viable solution that incorporates all aspects of game play, such as I suggested in my most recent post.

The tabard system of Wrath and Cata failed because, even though there were other options available, grinding dungeons was by far the most efficient and rewarding way to gain rep. Therefore that is all anyone did. The other options might as well have not existed, because even people who despised that gameplay style did it because it was the best way by far. Valor only being available from dungeons and raids contributed to this.

Blizzard did an excellent job of fixing the Valor problem by spreading it out among a wide variety of activities, all of which allow you to reach cap on their own without the need to participate in anything you do not want to. But none of them are so efficient that they render the others effectively useless. The more types of activity you participate in, the faster you reach cap.

Where Blizzard missed, which we both agree on, is locking valor gear behind rep and then (again) tying that rep to only one activity. A better design would have been to mirror the format used for valor gains, such that it is possible to achieve the needed rep gains through multiple activities, none of which vastly outpace any other, with the result being that participating in as many activities as time and personal desire allow becomes the most efficient way to acquire rep. Blizzard is slowly moving toward a system like that but I think it shortsighted of them to have already come up with an ideal solution and applied it to a separate but similar system, yet with rep create a problem identical to the one they just solved with valor by having it only available from one source.

Why doesn't using a tabard or daily quests to progress through the levels of reputation, with mandatory quest chains at Friendly/Honored/Revered that must be done before you can unlock tabard rep gains for that level count? It involved dungeons and questing. It allows the option of daily quests or tabards every day to gather rep, with both giving the same amount of rep per day. And you still have to go out into the world and do a quest chain that should heavily involve the story of pandaria and take you across the zone in order to unlock the option at every level of rep.

Having options is only a good thing. It doesn't have to be a total zero-sum game. If you can pick between daily quests which give x amount of rep per day when you finish them all and wearing a tabard that earns you the same amount of reputation while wearing it in dungeons then every day you have that option. Every character you have and every day you log on there gets to be a choice. Is it really good game design that if I log on and 4 friends are on and about to chain some dungeons and I decide "Hell yeah playing with friends is awesome" then I miss doing dailies and fall behind a day in getting that gear? Now of course the "Dailies or Die" crowd will say it's my choice to go have fun and not "do the hard work" of a set of daily quests that I've already done from neutral to exalted one time and that I shouldn't expect a reward for having fun and not "doing the hard work of daily quests". But I gotta say, when I started playing and I was able to work on reputations while playing with friends who had no interest in reps, were gearing up alts, were grinding justice for an heirloom, or whatever, it was awesome. It made me feel like I could spend my time having fun with my friends and guild and also progressing my character. That's how it was until MOP in my gameplay experience. And now having experienced this older model of daily quest grind I gotta say I'm not impressed and I don't particularly understand it. Maybe it's because I'm the type who really burns out on daily quests after the first few times. Maybe it's because it's frustrating to feel like I "lost a day" in game because I didn't do dailies and now a piece of gear I need and have been getting screwed on by RNG is another day away. And that's on top of a valor grind with a pretty low cap. So you have RNG, Valor Cap, and Daily Quest grind triple gating me to an item that just won't drop for me and that, for the entire time I've been playing wow, used to be available when I had enough valor. Gotta admit I liked that way better.

Having the option for rep from a tabard of rep from a daily quest set only helps to prevent burnout of both. I'm so OVER daily quests, as has been obvious by my pretty annoyed criticisms of them. But they earn valor which I think is a good thing. And some of the grinds I don't mind like cloud serpent or the anglers or the tillers, who only have vanity rewards yet also offer the most pleasant and smooth questing experience. But the Shado-Pan/Klaxxi/Golden Lotus/August Celstial grind? Man that is rough. And really, I didn't have any fun grinding out those reps. But if I had the option to earn my reps for the day running dungeons instead of doing dailies I could pick every day. It's not a zero sum game, if I'm on for a bit and there's no one in guild on I might run a set of dailies quick because I know later we'll be doing something else. Or if everyone is on I can play with them instead of skulking off to daily island or being punished for not doing my dailies.

I get the whole "In my day you did daily quests in 50 feet of snow and loved it" but...I started playing with a way better design. Both in not gating valor gear behind reputations and in not gating reputations exclusively behind daily quests. I've got nothing against daily quests and I'm not asking for a tabard alternative that's better then daily quests. But going from having those options to having them stripped away, that sucked, and continues to suck.

I'm hopeful for the numbers on the rep bonus from the Scenario/Dungeon. Also hopeful the rep bonus from the far work orders is something significant. The blue post about dailies says "Oh there is gear in raids so you don't need the rep gear". But the rep gear is better then LFR for people without a raid group, that's something that can help get them in one, and it's also the only way to spend valor. In the same blue post about LFR RNG they say "We don't want to make LFR free loot, valor rewards are intended to help relieve RNG". So for anyone getting screwed by RNG they get punished with daily quests. Seems silly to me! They are adding more options which means they are listening, hopefully they are good ones, though the comments like "We are trying to give you options even if they aren't the most efficient" which leads me to believe that the non-daily quest rep changes will be pretty severely gimped. Which is a big letdown, but I'll wait for the numbers on the new rep options.

Get your umbrella's. There will be tears. People cry for easier rep gain, then cry that its not enough. Others will cry that its too much.
But,
WE WILL ALL LOG BACK INTO THE GAME WE LOVE.
BOOHOO guys BOOHOO.

The mere fact that you can be able to "champion" a faction is ludicrous to begin with. Factions only give a shit about what's happening in dungeons that concern them. It made no sense in Cataclysm, and it makes no sense now.