There was recently some discussion about whether the rules for the Widowmaker, now carried by Tyrion, were appropriate for the fluff behind the blade. Concerns have been raised that it is basically a souped up version of Ghal Maraz. The thread is here

Dalamar suggested an alternative in this thread, and I thought it might be fun to start a new thread, building on his idea. So, without further ado, my challenge to you is: build your own Widowmaker. I list Dalamar's design below, and give my first suggestion for my Widowmaker build below that:

Dalamar wrote:

Ignores Armor Saves.Attacks made with the Widowmaker can never wound worse than on 4+, regardless of target's T.Any successful ward saves taken to protect from damage caused by the Widowmaker must be re-rolled.Heroic Killing Blow.This weapon grants the wielder the Frenzy special rule. Unlike regular frenzy, this "death frenzy" grants the wielder +2 attacks but they must test to restrain from frenzy at a -3 modifier to their Ld.This weapon also grants the Frenzy special rule to all units within 12" (friend or foe).

So, here is my suggested version

- Gives +D3 additional attacks each round- Gives +D3 strength each round- Ignores ward saves and regeneration- Every wound inflicted gives one wound back to the wielder. This cannot take the wielder above their starting wounds.- Causes terror- Provides unbreakable to all friendly units and models within 12"

Attacks from the blade roll to hit and wound as normal, with armor saves allowed as normal.

This would reflect well the blade's daemon killing focus (ward saves and regen saves are a very daemonic/magical thing), as well as represent the blade's fluctuating power (Tyrion would be lifted from anywhere between S6 and S8 each turn). The life force replenishment component would reflect the fact that whoever wields the blade gains a vitality and stamina unknown to any other mortals - as shown by Aenarion's near never-ending endurance and zeal during the original chaos invasion. 1 wound back for every wound inflicted might be too powerful, so maybe one wound back for every two wounds inflicted (with totals rounded down), but that might be too complex. The terror element would reflect the sheer power of the blade and the panic it causes in all who see it, while the unbreakable element would reflect the blade's ability to forge a sense of invulnerability by those who fight around the bearer of the blade (again, explaining Aenarion's original hardened core of followers, who continued with him throughout all of the horrors of the war, even when the other elves became disillusioned or lost hope). I also think this would all make the blade quite unique, rather than being a tweaked Ghal Maraz or Hellebron's blade.

Any thoughts on that? What other designs do people suggest?

_________________"While all answers are replies, not all replies are answers. So answer the question."

While terror seems fluffy, at no point in the book you see people running from Tyrion. If anythibg the presence of the blade whips everyone into unthinking frenzy with no regard for basic instincts like survival.

As noted in the original thread, I have a feeling that Widowmaker in the current official rules has a second component in upgrading Tyrion's stat line, thus reflecting a fuller extent of its power than just the "impact rules". I know not everyone agreed in that point!

I'd still prefer something different! Here's my sketch;

- All units, friend or foe, not immune to psychology within 12" gain frenzy, or super frenzy if already frenzied.- User gains heroic killing blow.- No ward saves allowed against it.- At the end of a turn in which the user kills at least one model, gains +1 strength, attacks, toughness for rest of battle cumulative, but lost if does not kill in two consecutive rounds thereafter.

Or

- All units, friend or foe, not immune to psychology within 12" gain frenzy, or super frenzy if already frenzied.- User gains heroic killing blow.- No ward saves allowed against it.- If defeat opponent in a challenge, get all attacks back and challenge/fight again that round.

While terror seems fluffy, at no point in the book you see people running from Tyrion. If anythibg the presence of the blade whips everyone into unthinking frenzy with no regard for basic instincts like survival.

I agree, the widowmaker/khaine turns Tyrion into a frenzied borderline lunatic. At the same time one could argue this would be a terrifying sight to any soldier, as the embodiment of your god of murder and war is running around with a god artifact killing your greatest heros (ex: Orion getting widowmakered in the face)

I'm happy enough with the Widowmaker as-is, given that it also benefits from its wielder's rather impressive stat profile and special rules.

If I were to create a new incarnation of Khaine's blade to be used by someone other than Tyrion, I'd go with something like this:

- Wielder has +3 Strength, gains the Eternal Hatred, Magic Resistance (2) and Frenzy special rules, and the wielder (and their unit, if any) may re-roll failed charges.- No armour saves are allowed against wounds caused by the Widowmaker, and successful ward saves must be re-rolled.- All friendly models within 12" re-roll failed rolls to Wound in close combat and must pursue an enemy unit which breaks from combat, if possible.- Wounds caused by the Widowmaker have the Multiple Wounds (D3+1) rule.- The wielder must accept a challenge if one is offered by an opponent, and must be the model chosen to accept the challenge.- The Widowmaker cannot be stolen or destroyed.

In Tyrion's case, the bonuses to Strength, Magic Resistance and re-rolls to Wound are moot due to his other items and rules. Eternal Hatred is irrelevant unless Tyrion is up against an opponent with ASF or somehow loses his ASF, since he has Initiative 10. The Multiple Wounds has been modified from D6 to D3+1 to smooth out the damage curve. The charge re-rolls represent the bearer and their unit being impelled towards the fray by the sword's bloodlust. The forced pursuit rule is there to reflect the madness of warriors under the influence of Khaine's blade - they gain a substantial benefit from the bearer's proximity but it is tempered by the risk of being pulled out of position. The challenge rule should be obvious - the bearer of the blade of the god of murder is not going to settle for any old prey, and is most certainly not going to sit out a fight.

On the Terror point - I think this is one of those times where the Terror special rule is aimed at the opposing player, not his or her models. The bearer of the Widowmaker is, for all intents and purposes, a normal Elf. By the time an opponent's warriors realised exactly how much trouble they were in, it would be far too late to run away. In contrast, a player knows exactly what Tyrion, Avatar of Khaine can do to just about anything in their army, and how little chance their models stand of even surviving a round of combat, much less killing him.

_________________"The wrath of a good man is not to be feared. They have too many rules."

"Good men don't need rules. Today is not a good time to find out why I have so many."

Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:31 pm

T.D.

Killed by Khorne

Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 3:51 pmPosts: 2808Location: Hinterlands of Khuresh; The Lost City of the Angels

- +1 to all stats with the exception of WS, S, and I, which are maxed to 10- Eternal Hatred, Frenzy and Murderous Prowess (if the bearer already has Frenzy they gain Super Frenzy but must make relevant Ld tests at -3, if they already have MP, they reroll results of both 1 and 2)- No armour, ward, magical or regeneration saves can be taken against wounds caused by the Sword of Khaine- Every time an enemy is wounded by the Sword of Khaine, the bearer and the enemy roll off 2D6, adding their respective leadership. If the scores are equal or the enemies total is higher, nothing else happens. If the bearer's total is higher, the enemy loses a wound for each point of difference, with no saves possible (see above).- For each wound scored in this roll-off, the bearer gains +1 ward save, up to a maximum of 2++.

In addition:- All models and units, friend or foe within 18" of the bearer gain Eternal Hatred, Frenzy and Murderous Prowess (if they already have Frenzy they gain Super Frenzy but must make relevant Ld tests at -3, if they already have MP, they reroll results of both 1 and 2)- The bearer of the Sword of Khaine must always issue challenges in combat, and may not refuse a challenge.

- +1 to all stats with the exception of WS, S, and I, which are maxed to 10- Eternal Hatred, Frenzy and Murderous Prowess (if the bearer already has Frenzy they gain Super Frenzy but must make relevant Ld tests at -3, if they already have MP, they reroll results of both 1 and 2)- No armour, ward, magical or regeneration saves can be taken against wounds caused by the Sword of Khaine- Every time an enemy is wounded by the Sword of Khaine, the bearer and the enemy roll off 2D6, adding their respective leadership. If the scores are equal or the enemies total is higher, nothing else happens. If the bearer's total is higher, the enemy loses a wound for each point of difference, with no saves possible (see above).- For each wound scored in this roll-off, the bearer gains +1 ward save, up to a maximum of 2++.

In addition:- All models and units, friend or foe within 18" of the bearer gain Eternal Hatred, Frenzy and Murderous Prowess (if they already have Frenzy they gain Super Frenzy but must make relevant Ld tests at -3, if they already have MP, they reroll results of both 1 and 2)- The bearer of the Sword of Khaine must always issue challenges in combat, and may not refuse a challenge.

Can you guess the weapon that inspired this idea?

My first thought was "Soul Edge".

_________________"The wrath of a good man is not to be feared. They have too many rules."

"Good men don't need rules. Today is not a good time to find out why I have so many."

Fri Dec 19, 2014 8:43 pm

T.D.

Killed by Khorne

Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 3:51 pmPosts: 2808Location: Hinterlands of Khuresh; The Lost City of the Angels

Gives the weilder and any unit they join frenzy (if leave unit frenzy goes from unit).No armour saves may be taken against wounds caused.Weilder and any unit joined are StubbornEach wound causes D3 wounds Vs Mon. Inf / Mon. Cav / Mon. Beasts / Monsters / ChariotsEach model killed by the Widowmaker must be put to one side and rebased on a round base after the game is finished

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

You cannot post new topics in this forumYou cannot reply to topics in this forumYou cannot edit your posts in this forumYou cannot delete your posts in this forumYou cannot post attachments in this forum