1 based on or in accordance with reason or logic: I'm sure there's a perfectly rational explanation.• (of a person) able to think clearly, sensibly, and logically: Andrea's upset—she's not being very rational.• endowed with the capacity to reason: man is a rational being.2 Mathematics (of a number, quantity, or expression) expressible, or containing quantities that are expressible, as a ratio of whole numbers. When expressed as a decimal, a rational number has a finite or recurring expansion.

1 based on or in accordance with reason or logic: I'm sure there's a perfectly rational explanation.• (of a person) able to think clearly, sensibly, and logically: Andrea's upset—she's not being very rational.• endowed with the capacity to reason: man is a rational being.2 Mathematics (of a number, quantity, or expression) expressible, or containing quantities that are expressible, as a ratio of whole numbers. When expressed as a decimal, a rational number has a finite or recurring expansion.

1)Zen is rational2)If experience can be quantified through mathematics, then Zen is rational

Last edited by LastLegend on Sun Sep 18, 2011 6:55 am, edited 2 times in total.

NAMO AMITABHANAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)Linjii―Listen! Those of you who devote yourselves to the Dharma must not be afraid of losing your bodies and your lives―

The question is basicaly unanswerable, the presumption in the question, that Zen must be either logical or not logical is flawed.In fact the true answer is....both Yes and No.Up to a point Zen can be taught logically, until the student comes up against the limits of logical teaching. If the student is to go further on in his/her study....to "enlightenment", "realization", "understanding" ...or whatever you want to call it...the student must be forced out of that logical viewpoint and into a non-logical place where he/she can then see clearly outside of a logical perspective. Only then can the student see clearly and achieve that "realization".That's why the real anser to the question is: Niether one or the other.Or to put it another way, both "logical" and "non-logical" are only meaningless terms.... verbal ILLUSIONS generated by the mind....and have no inherent self-existant reality.(slaps your face).

Shame on you Shakyamuni for setting the precedent of leaving home.Did you think it was not there-- in your wife's lovely face in your baby's laughter?Did you think you had to go elsewhere (simply) to find it? from - Judyth Collin The Layman's Lament From What Book, 1998, p. 52 Edited by Gary Gach

I can't see any other answer to the OP than "sometimes". Zen practioners sit on cushions, not wild camels. Basically the reason is pretty rational, but I doubt the practice of sitting on cushions was derived from a process of logical analysis.

Quiet Heart wrote::shrug: The question is basicaly unanswerable, the presumption in the question, that Zen must be either logical or not logical is flawed.In fact the true answer is....both Yes and No.Up to a point Zen can be taught logically, until the student comes up against the limits of logical teaching. If the student is to go further on in his/her study....to "enlightenment", "realization", "understanding" ...or whatever you want to call it...the student must be forced out of that logical viewpoint and into a non-logical place where he/she can then see clearly outside of a logical perspective. Only then can the student see clearly and achieve that "realization".That's why the real anser to the question is: Niether one or the other.Or to put it another way, both "logical" and "non-logical" are only meaningless terms.... verbal ILLUSIONS generated by the mind....and have no inherent self-existant reality.(slaps your face).

hello Quiet Heart

I can appreciate what you say and have no objections. However, if what you say is true you must know how Zen is taught logically. How is Zen taught logically?

Is being rational Zen? Is being irrational Zen? Of course not. Can Zen be rationalised or "irrationalised"? Definitely. So it is not something but can be made into anything, such is the magic of mind. Zen can be presented in any way it is needed, that's the primary approach Zen has. That is quite a rational attitude that understands dependent origination and how to assist people in seeing the nature of mind, i.e. perceiving that ideas such as rationality and irrationality depend on each other without any real basis.

"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)