This thread needed to be made. And what fun shall we have together. Oh yes.

The difficulty in writing about the character is that even in her original appearances in the New Jedi Order series she is cryptic to the casual reader, at least moreso than the average Star Wars character. When you couple that with the contrasting information supplied about her by Lumiya and other sources, it further muddies the waters for the character.

Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:24 pm

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Darth SkuldrenModerator

Joined: 04 Feb 2008Posts: 6916Location: Missouri

I've never seen that image before. That's pretty cool.

One thing I like about Vergere was her grayness. You didn't know if she was good, evil, Sith, or Jedi. Often enough she was all of them. It made her an intriguing character. Too often we get characters that are dulled down._________________
"I believe toys resonate with us as humans, we can hold them, it's tactile, real! They are totems for our extended beliefs and imaginations. A fetish for ideas that hold as much interest and passion as old religious relics for some. We display them in our homes. They show who we are. They are signals for similar thinking people. A way we connect with each other...and I guess thats why I do toys. That connection." -Ashley Wood

Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:53 pm

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grayJeedai08Knight

Joined: 15 Apr 2011Posts: 117Location: Ossus

Oh, I totally agree! She was the most unique character in the SW universe. Too bad she gone.

Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:06 pm

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Crash OverrideMaster

Joined: 22 Dec 2010Posts: 1962

Darth Skuldren wrote:

I've never seen that image before. That's pretty cool.

One thing I like about Vergere was her grayness. You didn't know if she was good, evil, Sith, or Jedi. Often enough she was all of them. It made her an intriguing character. Too often we get characters that are dulled down.

It seems that they've tried to dull her down in that Denning keeps trying to write her as a Sith rather than keep it ambiguous, to such an extent that in Vortex Luke calls her a "Sith infiltrator." Considering that he knows nothing more about her now than he did in The Joiner King when Denning had Luke freely following what he claimed was her teachings, I found it to be bad writing...

Her Sith backstory doesn't make any sense either. She is a new Jedi Knight in Cloak of Deception shortly before Episode I, and in Episode I Darth Maul dies, necessitating his replacement. Dooku is selected as his replacement in that same year, since the the events of Bounty Hunter -- that is, the selection process for the prime clone -- as well as the start of the clone army also begins that year. So what little Sith training she received would have been in a very small amount of time -- not to mention that she was a "candidate" so who is to say she was trained at all?

That she was event being considered as Maul's placeholder replacement instead of Dooku, whom doesn't require extensive training, has his extensive birthright on Serenno, and is charismatic, doesn't make a whole lot of sense on Palpatine's part. Then we're told she attempted to kill Palpatine, which resulted in Dooku's selection. Consequently, she took the assignment to Zonama Sekot to flee Palpatine's assassins... two years later. Which doesn't even make sense, because she's an active Jedi Knight, and it's my understanding that the Jedi Council was looking for the second Sith Lord, and if Vergere wanted Palpatine dead, well...

The idea that she met up with Lumiya during the YVW doesn't make any sense either, because the time in which it would have happened would have been after she used the escape pod on the Millennium Falcon and it landed on a lifeless moon, IIRC, and the story implied it was recovered by a Yuuzhan Vong warship since subsequent searches by the New Republic did not recover it. It's not as if after this time Vergere was at liberty to explore the galaxy and find Lumiya -- she wouldn't have known Lumiya before this, and wouldn't have been able to set up some sort of meeting in that situation.

The overall lack of corroborating evidence didn't make sense to me except if the writers were going for the idea to leave it ambiguous as to whether Lumiya is lying -- but Denning's apparent insistence as late as Vortex by having Luke make the claim on information he doesn't have suggests otherwise. Not to mention the general non sequitur of the premise of Luke's exile: if he knows that Vergere was a "Sith infiltrator," then what more does he hope to find that made Jacen turn dark than what he already "knows"?

The whole attempt to retcon Vergere as being a Sith, or honestly even trying to make it ambiguous that she was a Sith, strikes me as so half-assed that I can't understand why people take it seriously. I think it's confirmation bias to an extent because people can't comprehend of a Jedi character that they perceive to act in a manner like she did in the NJO, and it makes more sense to them if she is a Sith.

Personally, I think her actions in that series aren't anymore ambiguous or different than Yoda or Obi-Wan in the films.

Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:23 pm

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grayJeedai08Knight

Joined: 15 Apr 2011Posts: 117Location: Ossus

All good points. Vergere was neither Jedi or Sith. She was a survivor. She had to, since she was with the Vong. If she had behaved like a Jedi they probably would have killed her, or sacrificed her to thier so-called gods.

Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:26 pm

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Crash OverrideMaster

Joined: 22 Dec 2010Posts: 1962

grayJeedai08 wrote:

All good points. Vergere was neither Jedi or Sith. She was a survivor. She had to, since she was with the Vong. If she had behaved like a Jedi they probably would have killed her, or sacrificed her to thier so-called gods.

I wouldn't say she didn't behave unlike a Jedi. What did Yoda do for the first twenty-two years during the Empire? I don't see the distinction between that and Vergere living among the Yuuzhan Vong.

Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:36 pm

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grayJeedai08Knight

Joined: 15 Apr 2011Posts: 117Location: Ossus

Yoda was hiding during the Imperial days on Dagobah. Vergere was captured by the Vong if I remember correctly. There is a diffrence between Yoda's self exile and being captured by a hostile species. Know what I mean?

Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:39 pm

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Crash OverrideMaster

Joined: 22 Dec 2010Posts: 1962

Vergere went willingly with the Yuuzhan Vong under the condition that they cease attacking Zonama Sekot with the motive of learning all the information that she could about them for when they returned and attacked the Galactic Republic.

You said she wasn't acting like a Jedi while with them, I thought you meant in some sort of ethical sense by way of inaction, so my point was that if inaction is not the Jedi way then Yoda is just as guilty as she is.

Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:26 pm

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WerehunterKnight

Joined: 08 Apr 2011Posts: 362

To be honest, I like the idea that she was first a Jedi but became disillusioned with them and eventfully became a Sith.

LivingJediDream wrote:

It seems that they've tried to dull her down in that Denning keeps trying to write her as a Sith rather than keep it ambiguous, to such an extent that in Vortex Luke calls her a "Sith infiltrator." Considering that he knows nothing more about her now than he did in The Joiner King when Denning had Luke freely following what he claimed was her teachings, I found it to be bad writing...

Her Sith backstory doesn't make any sense either. She is a new Jedi Knight in Cloak of Deception shortly before Episode I, and in Episode I Darth Maul dies, necessitating his replacement. Dooku is selected as his replacement in that same year, since the the events of Bounty Hunter -- that is, the selection process for the prime clone -- as well as the start of the clone army also begins that year. So what little Sith training she received would have been in a very small amount of time -- not to mention that she was a "candidate" so who is to say she was trained at all?

That she was event being considered as Maul's placeholder replacement instead of Dooku, whom doesn't require extensive training, has his extensive birthright on Serenno, and is charismatic, doesn't make a whole lot of sense on Palpatine's part. Then we're told she attempted to kill Palpatine, which resulted in Dooku's selection. Consequently, she took the assignment to Zonama Sekot to flee Palpatine's assassins... two years later. Which doesn't even make sense, because she's an active Jedi Knight, and it's my understanding that the Jedi Council was looking for the second Sith Lord, and if Vergere wanted Palpatine dead, well...

Don't forget that mysterious group of Sith they showed in Legacy of the Force. Those hiding on Korriban, I believe, and the ones that Ship rejected in Fare of the Jedi. I don't know if there's anything out there explaining them, but from what little I've read about them they don't fit in with that either. And since I hate the Rule of Two idea, I like the idea of a group of Sith hiding from those that follow that rule. Vergere could easily be part of that group.

LivingJediDream wrote:

The idea that she met up with Lumiya during the YVW doesn't make any sense either, because the time in which it would have happened would have been after she used the escape pod on the Millennium Falcon and it landed on a lifeless moon, IIRC, and the story implied it was recovered by a Yuuzhan Vong warship since subsequent searches by the New Republic did not recover it. It's not as if after this time Vergere was at liberty to explore the galaxy and find Lumiya -- she wouldn't have known Lumiya before this, and wouldn't have been able to set up some sort of meeting in that situation.

Is that talked about in an E book, for I don't remember anything about the Vong picking her up. In fact I remember, in Star by Star I believe, that the Vong had doubts about her because it took so long for her to return to the Vong after the mission failed. Unless there's more I miss, I have no problem with her sneaking off to meet up with the hidden Sith group.

LivingJediDream wrote:

The overall lack of corroborating evidence didn't make sense to me except if the writers were going for the idea to leave it ambiguous as to whether Lumiya is lying -- but Denning's apparent insistence as late as Vortex by having Luke make the claim on information he doesn't have suggests otherwise. Not to mention the general non sequitur of the premise of Luke's exile: if he knows that Vergere was a "Sith infiltrator," then what more does he hope to find that made Jacen turn dark than what he already "knows"?

I can't argue with that. There's no way for Luke to know Vergere was a Sith. But since I read comics, I'm more then used to characters knowing things that they shouldn't know and chalk it up to the fact these books, while authored by one person are plotted by several.

Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:38 pm

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Crash OverrideMaster

Joined: 22 Dec 2010Posts: 1962

If her role in the New Jedi Order series was different, I would be inclined to agree that throwing a Sith background out there and muddying the waters as far as the character as concerned would be interesting, but the Sidious connection is just awful.

And the hidden Sith you're mentioning are the One Sith from Legacy. They were created by Krayt during the YVW.

But as it is, the New Jedi Order series is Jacen's hero's journey. What Legacy of the Force did with Vergere and Jacen is identical to a hypothetical story set shortly after Return of the Jedi that has Luke turn to the dark side and revealed that Yoda was actually working with Palpatine, or something along those lines, and ended with Leia killing Luke.

It thematically disrupts the preceding story completely, is wholly unsatisfying, and has no redeeming themes or qualities of its own to justify completely wrecking its predecessor.

That the retcon with Vergere is so half-assed that it actually leaves room for interpretation, despite intentions to the contrary, just allows me to believe Lumiya was lying all along and Jacen was completely fooled and was really stupid not to flow-walk on the asteroid to corroborate the story that Vergere had been there.

And, preemptively, I'm aware of SW: Legacy #18 and it also allows the reader to doubt the reliability of the narrator.

What Sidious connection? Maybe I'm forgetting a scene, but I don't remember any connection between Vergere and Sidious.

And how does that ruin Vergere's story in NJO. They had nothing but her word that she was still a Jedi. And she was teaching Jacen and Luke a completely different version of the Force then Ben and Yoda taught Luke in the movies. If they were Old Republic Jedi and so was she, wouldn't her teachings be the same. Unless she also followed other teachings elsewhere. I never once believed in the NJO novels that she was actually a Jedi in the same sense Yoda and Ben were, but rather she was something else pretending to be one or at least pretending to still be one.

OH and what's YVW. All these abbreviations are getting confusing. lol.

Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:06 pm

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Crash OverrideMaster

Joined: 22 Dec 2010Posts: 1962

Werehunter wrote:

What Sidious connection? Maybe I'm forgetting a scene, but I don't remember any connection between Vergere and Sidious.

Lumiya says that Vergere became a Sith by virtue of being a candidate to replace Darth Maul. She decided to try to kill Palpatine, failed, and accepted the Jedi mission to Zonama Sekot (two years later) to escape Palpatine's assassins. If she wanted Palpatine dead, why not turn him in to the Jedi Council? It makes no sense at all. Especially since her motive for killing him was that she knew what he was going to do. Making his identity known to the Jedi Council would pretty much preclude them from falling into his trap and becoming Emperor. Poorly conceived retcon.

Werehunter wrote:

And how does that ruin Vergere's story in NJO. They had nothing but her word that she was still a Jedi. And she was teaching Jacen and Luke a completely different version of the Force then Ben and Yoda taught Luke in the movies. If they were Old Republic Jedi and so was she, wouldn't her teachings be the same. Unless she also followed other teachings elsewhere. I never once believed in the NJO novels that she was actually a Jedi in the same sense Yoda and Ben were, but rather she was something else pretending to be one or at least pretending to still be one.

Vergere is depicted as a Jedi Knight in the Old Republic in the novels Cloak of Deception and Rogue Planet. I don't think that her teachings were any different than Obi-Wan and Yoda's, except that they incorporated the concept of the Unifying/Cosmic Force which George Lucas didn't invent at the time of the original film trilogy and thus is absent from those movies, but is accounted for the prequels and spin-off novels. Thus, some of what she says also sounds similar to Qui-Gon. I can explain my reasoning at length if necessary and break down everything she says.

Werehunter wrote:

OH and what's YVW. All these abbreviations are getting confusing. lol.

Regarding Luke 'knowing' Vergere was a Sith. Could that not instead be classed as him surmising that she was a Sith, based on the information he had at the time, and the way he perceived the divisions of Force culture?_________________I am a Star Wars fan. That doesn't mean that I hate or love Jar Jar. That doesn't mean I hate or love Lucas, or agree or disagree 100% with him. That doesn't mean I prefer the PT over the OT, or vice versa. That doesn't mean I hate the EU, or even love all of it (or even read all of it). These are not prerequisites. Being a man is not a prerequisite. Being a geek is not a prerequisite. The only prerequisite is that I love something about Star Wars. I am a Star Wars fan.

Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 3:33 am

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Crash OverrideMaster

Joined: 22 Dec 2010Posts: 1962

Life Is The Path wrote:

Regarding Luke 'knowing' Vergere was a Sith. Could that not instead be classed as him surmising that she was a Sith, based on the information he had at the time, and the way he perceived the divisions of Force culture?

As far as I know, Luke has no more new information regarding Vergere than he did at the conclusion of the NJO. Only Jacen and Alema were told anything about her alleged Sith affiliation, and as far as I can recall, neither communicated this to anyone else. So he's going off of the same information that was good enough for him, in The Joiner King, to restructure the philosophical underpinnings of the entire Jedi Order to her (strawman) philosophy. And I find it curious that he undertook this ten year exile to find what broke Jacen if he already "knows" Vergere was a "Sith infiltrator." Problem solved, right?

I just think it's lazy writing. Denning wants Vergere to be a Sith; ergo, Luke says she's a Sith despite not having any way of knowing. And even if he's going to be making assumptions, it seems a lot more reasonable to assume that she was a Jedi that was twisted by the Yuuzhan Vong, rather than a Sith. He has no knowledge of any of her alleged contact with the Sith, whether it be Lumiya, the One Sith (which he doesn't even know exists), or Darth Sidious.