Defense is our main issue. Outside of Bubble we are an easy target. That is why every team just trains the Ret Paladin. Damage could be a little better but it isn't too bad.

That's right but we are not the weakest class in term of defensive stuff specially against melee take example for DK they are even more squishy than retri in term of defensive stuff specially against melees but we don't feel it as bad as Retri because DKs have an awesome sustain dmg + burst + and pressure.

What I mean is yes Retri defensive capabilities is weak but DKs are even weakers against melees but they don't have as much problem as us because they can make up this squishy part because of being an awesome dmg dealer in pvp in general.

That's right but we are not the weakest class in term of defensive stuff specially against melee take example for DK they are even more squishy than retri in term of defensive stuff specially against melees but we don't feel it as bad as Retri because DKs have an awesome sustain dmg + burst + and pressure.

What I mean is yes Retri defensive capabilities is weak but DKs are even weakers against melees but they don't have as much problem as us because they can make up this squishy part because of being an awesome dmg dealer in pvp in general.

Dk's are not more squishy than Ret. Unless you aren't in Blood Pres for some reason. I would even argue that Dk's are one of the most tanky melee atm.

Dk's are not more squishy than Ret. Unless you aren't in Blood Pres for some reason. I would even argue that Dk's are one of the most tanky melee atm.

yeah they are indeed not squishy against casters because they have stuff like anti magic shell and zone but against melees that does physical dmg to them? they are way more squishy than Retri at the moment. Blood presence(which only give 10% dmg reduction) will not be enough to withstand rogues burst in pvp for example specially at the opener when the rogue know his stuff of course.

But because DK have amazing pressure, dmg, and gap closer that's why a lot of players overlook their squishness weakness.

Defense is our main issue. Outside of Bubble we are an easy target. That is why every team just trains the Ret Paladin. Damage could be a little better but it isn't too bad.

And I'm leveling my ret paladin just becouse I want to play an hybrid defensive spec ... I've thought ret is the most defensively oriented dmg hybrid spec? I don't understand why defense could be such an issue ... You can sacrifice some offensive to play more defensively, if needed. As hybrid dmg spec you can always heal yourself for ... I am only lvl 41 on my pala, so I don't know for how much WoG and FoL would heal you at lvl 90. But at my level in ret spec FoL heals almost for 100% of my health, while in holy spec amount of healing is much lower. Also 3hp WoG heals me for about 60%+ of my health + Seal of Insight and I am immortal
Please, don't tell me that at 90 everything will change so drasticly that my defensive will drop for so much ...
Sorry for grammar.

And I'm leveling my ret paladin just becouse I want to play an hybrid defensive spec ... I've thought ret is the most defensively oriented dmg hybrid spec? I don't understand why defense could be such an issue ... You can sacrifice some offensive to play more defensively, if needed.

You mean heals? Cause even our best heals can only make up so much damage. Given that you don't have mortal strike and you're stuck in a silence.

Otherwise Divine Shield, Divine Protection, and Devotion Aura is all you get for defense. Divine Shield can be removed by Priests and Warriors, and Divine Protection is only working against melee if you Glyph it. Devotion Aura only works against magic, and that isn't much on a 3 min cool down.

As hybrid dmg spec you can always heal yourself for ... I am only lvl 41 on my pala, so I don't know for how much WoG and FoL would heal you at lvl 90. But at my level in ret spec FoL heals almost for 100% of my health, while in holy spec amount of healing is much lower. Also 3hp WoG heals me for about 60%+ of my health + Seal of Insight and I am immortal
Please, don't tell me that at 90 everything will change so drastically that my defensive will drop for so much ...
Sorry for grammar.

Sorry, but World of Glory heals for junk and FoL heals for less junk at 90.

That's right but we are not the weakest class in term of defensive stuff specially against melee take example for DK they are even more squishy than retri in term of defensive stuff

lol you're wrong again. DK has AMS, icebound, AMZ(if talented), lichborne(if talented), they have quite a few good ways to prevent damage. a ret has divine protection and bubble. also both plate melee DPS (including DKs) have the ability to set themselves in a defensive state (blood presence, defensive stance), we need something like this to be up to par in terms of survivability. a seal of defense or something, or they could buff divine protection and set it to a 30 second cooldown.

i play at high ratings and trust me - it really isn't fun waiting behind a pillar for 2 minutes until you get either bubble/divine protection up

Originally Posted by Velshin

Yeah sorry I wasn't clear about my comments about DK I meant frost spec is the one that is more squishy than Retri against melees.

what makes frost more squishier than unholy vs melee? both have the same defensive cooldowns no?

lol you're wrong again. DK has AMS, icebound, AMZ(if talented), lichborne(if talented), they have quite a few good ways to prevent damage. a ret has divine protection and bubble. also both plate melee DPS (including DKs) have the ability to set themselves in a defensive state (blood presence, defensive stance), we need something like this to be up to par in terms of survivability. a seal of defense or something, or they could buff divine protection and set it to a 30 second cooldown.

i play at high ratings and trust me - it really isn't fun waiting behind a pillar for 2 minutes until you get either bubble/divine protection up

what makes frost more squishier than unholy vs melee? both have the same defensive cooldowns no?

I'm not counting cds that prevent dmg (magical dmg in your case) because if you do that I can counter your argument by saying yes paladin also have bubble and devotion aura which prevent any interrupt and silence but what I'm talking about is pure defensive stuff that reduce dmg taken from physical attacks. DK is more squishy than Retri in that part. In parts to reduce dmg taken not to prevent dmg like bubble or AMS. And about AMS it doesn't protect you at all from physical attacks if you read what I wrote clearly I was talking about DK vs physical attacks instead of magical attacks which of course DK is way way better than retri against magical attacks.

Key word here is physical attacks not magic.

About what makes Frost squisher than unholy yeah you are right they have the same defensive cds but unholy pet and gargoyle is what makes unholy better in my opinion.

I'm not counting cds that prevent dmg (magical dmg in your case) because if you do that I can counter your argument by saying yes paladin also have bubble and devotion aura which prevent any interrupt and silence but what I'm talking about is pure defensive stuff that reduce dmg taken from physical attacks. DK is more squishy than Retri in that part. In parts to reduce dmg taken not to prevent dmg like bubble or AMS. And about AMS it doesn't protect you at all from physical attacks if you read what I wrote clearly I was talking about DK vs physical attacks instead of magical attacks which of course DK is way way better than retri against magical attacks.

I agree but what I was saying that DK doesn't have anything that prevent or reduce physical dmg at all because AMS and AMZ is awesome stuff against casters but they don't do anything if you are against for example warrior or rogue or hunter. that is why I said they are more squishy than retri against physical attacks because at least retri has the divine protection and HoP if talented of course but DK has nothing against physical dmg.

Even if Frost DKs are squishier than we are against melee they still fare better against casters and they bring stuff to the table that we can't: Good unrelenting pressures + Death Grip + Gorefiend's Grasp plus they can become immune to stuns and spells. Did I mention Death Grip and Grasp yet? They can also (and this mostly for Unholy, not as effective for Frost) just sit in Blood Presence to try and bounce a little pressure off (plus they can silence us). Did we forget Necrotic Strike?

Ret do burst damage. Ok. Why not bring a rogue instead that can do as much (or even more) burst damage plus buff others via TotT, reset the fight whenever he wants to and still add massive utility to the group via disarm, smoke bomb, blind, sap, garrote, etc?

Oh but Ret can do offhealing! Yea, so can Ele Shamans, Shadow Priests, Boomkins...

So, the point remains, why bring a Ret when there's somebody else out there that can do it better?

Only real advantage we have is being able to use Hand spells... But, then again, so can Holy Paladins.

Even if Frost DKs are squishier than we are against melee they still fare better against casters and they bring stuff to the table that we can't: Good unrelenting pressures + Death Grip + Gorefiend's Grasp plus they can become immune to stuns and spells. Did I mention Death Grip and Grasp yet? They can also (and this mostly for Unholy, not as effective for Frost) just sit in Blood Presence to try and bounce a little pressure off (plus they can silence us). Did we forget Necrotic Strike?

Ret do burst damage. Ok. Why not bring a rogue instead that can do as much (or even more) burst damage plus buff others via TotT, reset the fight whenever he wants to and still add massive utility to the group via disarm, smoke bomb, blind, sap, garrote, etc?

Oh but Ret can do offhealing! Yea, so can Ele Shamans, Shadow Priests, Boomkins...

So, the point remains, why bring a Ret when there's somebody else out there that can do it better?

Only real advantage we have is being able to use Hand spells... But, then again, so can Holy Paladins.

In this I agree with you indeed DK is way better than retri even if they are more squishy than ret in term of physical dmg mitigation which is why I said what retri need at the moment is not buff for our defensive stuff but instead sustain dmg buff and pressure.

Well we need a better defensive stuff for sure but it's not our super main problem to be honest..our super main problem is that we don't do pressure and good sustain dmg at all outside of our cds.