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It's kinda funny that we (the girls) are seemingly very eager to "out" ourselves here in this thread and discuss at length all this for 6 pages, yet not want a simple general chat area for us? I don't think the idea was to change the way Sitepoint works or ruin the charma, just a small spot where we could get to know each other, talk about the kids, life or whatever... oh well, I thought it was a nice idea lol

It's been very interesting hearing the differences in our experiences.

It's kinda funny that we (the girls) are seemingly very eager to "out" ourselves here in this thread and discuss at length all this for 6 pages, yet not want a simple general chat area for us? I don't think the idea was to change the way Sitepoint works or ruin the charma, just a small spot where we could get to know each other, talk about the kids, life or whatever... oh well, I thought it was a nice idea lol

It's been very interesting hearing the differences in our experiences.

But that can be done right in GC. I do not understand the urge to separate away. If you have some kind of thing that you would like to talk about, just start a thread there. If it is a subject that you think guys might not be interested in, that is ok, maybe just the women will post in it. But it would be interesting for some guys too.

As you can see with this thread that was started by a man, mostly women ended up here because women were more interested in the subject matter.

That is certainly not the case in my work environment. I've never come across that anywhere, in fact... which is how it should be.

I haven't really suffered it myself, but I did see it from time to time in the engineering field. My discrimination problems did not arise because I was a woman, but because I was Spaniard working in an only English enviroment. And actually, it was not discrimination, it was simply taking advantage that my English was not perfect, so it was a fantastic escape goat when problems arised. The excuse was always that I didn't fully understand and that's why the office was in trouble. So we should have a special corner for Spaniards, don't you think? There are not many of us around here and I may feel lonely

I haven't really suffered it myself, but I did see it from time to time in the engineering field. My discrimination problems did not arise because I was a woman, but because I was Spaniard working in an only English enviroment. And actually, it was not discrimination, it was simply taking advantage that my English was not perfect, so it was a fantastic escape goat when problems arised. The excuse was always that I didn't fully understand and that's why the office was in trouble. So we should have a special corner for Spaniards, don't you think? There are not many of us around here and I may feel lonely

But that can be done right in GC. I do not understand the urge to separate away. If you have some kind of thing that you would like to talk about, just start a thread there. If it is a subject that you think guys might not be interested in, that is ok, maybe just the women will post in it. But it would be interesting for some guys too.

As you can see with this thread that was started by a man, mostly women ended up here because women were more interested in the subject matter.

Hmmm... the idea was in response to the original question about the lack of women in the field and a percieved all-male image and how a female chat might soften that image. I guess I'm looking at this in macro and you in micro. I understand we could just post in GC, but our "names" hide who we are so posting in GC doesn't help the all male perception... I think that was the point.

The women came to this thread, not just because it interested them, but to be counted in as well and be included. ..or maybe we were just lonely LOL. Maybe you gals wouldn't use a woman chat, but some others may really appreciate it. Thinking of all of us here that's all

The women came to this thread, not just because it interested them, but to be counted in as well and be included. ..or maybe we were just lonely LOL. Maybe you gals wouldn't use a woman chat, but some others may really appreciate it. Thinking of all of us here that's all

But the thing is that loneliness within this forum is self made, it is an assumption that has very little to do with reality. It is your own mindset that makes you feel like this. Dive in and do not hide. Why would any woman hide? That is the very thing that makes you feel not integrated. And it is just a feeling on your part.

You could set up a poll in GC to find out what the members think. You will get both males and females commenting though, because here on SitePoint is no gender separation and hopefully will not ever be.

It is true that women have to do everything better than men in general to the point that it is blunt discrimination.

I think that in male dominated fields, this is definitely true because of the underlying generalization that a woman is in that position specifically BECAUSE she is a woman....not because of her talents or expertise.

This is why affirmative action is so dangerous. When companies get tax breaks or government contracts because they meet race/gender quotas, it creates a hatred for the group of people who are being favored, not because of their talent, but because of some other uncontrollable element.

AND, not all affirmative action is bad, there are many kinds of affirmative action. The DigiGirls camps is a kind of affirmative action....a company is reaching out to a specific group, that is the very essence of what affirmative action is....but, it is affirmative action that does not create injustice by stripping jobs from talented men because they are men.

---------------------------------------Ashley Kennedy
---------------------------------------how does a designer get roped into writing code?

But the thing is that loneliness within this forum is self made, it is an assumption that has very little to do with reality. It is your own mindset that makes you feel like this. Dive in and do not hide. Why would any woman hide? That is the very thing that makes you feel not integrated. And it is just a feeling on your part.

You could set up a poll in GC to find out what the members think. You will get both males and females commenting though, because here on SitePoint is no gender separation and hopefully will not ever be.

What's with all this loneliness talk??????????????? Why are you assuming I'm lonely??? LMAO I guess that is your own mindset, because there is nothing I've said in this discussion to warrant that. I'm not talking for myself, as I stated.LOL Equating the idea that some women may enjoy having contact with other females with being "lonely", I don't get.

This idea wasn't mine and I was only trying to clearify the idea since it seems that the actual point of it was getting missed/ignored or intentionally scewed.

What's with all this loneliness talk??????????????? Why are you assuming I'm lonely??? LMAO I guess that is your own mindset, because there is nothing I've said in this discussion to warrant that. I'm not talking for myself, as I stated.LOL

This idea wasn't mine and I was only trying to clearify the idea since it seems that the actual point of it was getting missed/ignored or intentionally scewed.

I don't think that Datura wanted to say that, and I do not believe that she was talking about someone specifically. I think what she wanted to say is that in this forum gender is not an issue at all, and hence if someone wants to be lonely is due to personal option.

That doesn't mean that at some point you many not find someone with the wrong ideas, but those cases are really rare and far between.

In general, nobody here cares about gender, religion, political views nor anything. The people around here cares about getting things done and having a bit of relaxing time, as in General Chat.

What's with all this loneliness talk??????????????? Why are you assuming I'm lonely???

I was just relating it to your own statement

Originally Posted by SWM

The women came to this thread, not just because it interested them, but to be counted in as well and be included. ..or maybe we were just lonely LOL. Maybe you gals wouldn't use a woman chat, but some others may really appreciate it. Thinking of all of us here that's all

I don't think that Datura wanted to say that, and I do not believe that she was talking about someone specifically. I think what she wanted to say is that in this forum gender is not an issue at all, and hence if someone wants to be lonely is due to personal option.

That doesn't mean that at some point you many not find someone with the wrong ideas, but those cases are really rare and far between.

In general, nobody here cares about gender, religion, political views nor anything. The people around here cares about getting things done and having a bit of relaxing time, as in General Chat.

You are right of course, no one person in mind there at all.

I know that the two of us certainly like to mingle right in, we have serious discussions and fun together here - with the guys - there is no problem what so ever.

And that should not really make a difference at all. I merely tried to point out that women are here naturally, without trying to be off in a corner. Just as humans, as members. And that is how it should be, that is how integration happens.

What's with all this loneliness talk??????????????? Why are you assuming I'm lonely??? LMAO I guess that is your own mindset, because there is nothing I've said in this discussion to warrant that. I'm not talking for myself, as I stated.LOL

This idea wasn't mine and I was only trying to clearify the idea since it seems that the actual point of it was getting missed/ignored or intentionally scewed.

Thank you SWM for resetting the rationality a bit.
Dan Grossman posed the searching question, but after following the thread for a while, it was in posts #84 and #88 that I suggested that because gender-related issues were apparently an important to a section of 'our' community coming into play in professional careers and happiness, it might be an idea to offer a place to address such issues and tried to appeal to Sitepoint to take a lead. I am very happy to take the flak for this, and very pleased people have shared both opposition and support. I also used the term 'outed' because the reason behind the proposition was because significantly six or seven women came out of the read-only shadows to make their very first contribution.

In post #102 Hawk said that she appreciated that my intention 'was good', but... I know she wasn't being patronising. However, for the record I don't want to leave the impression that the issue for me is academic, as if I have no stake in the issues just because I am a man. I am by no means a casual observer.

I accept, hear and know that people at different points in their careers, and different offices, team environments, forums and cultures and professional roles face, sometimes 'no', 'negligible' or 'significant' or even life-threatening discrimination. The point is not lost on me, that I posted and can post my ideas at this point in time, because I have the space, fortune and freedom to express myself; to address what I don't 'get', to ask for help or support when needed. I also have access to this forum space where, in general there are moderating principles applied, and some self-respect and regulation so that I am not told / shouted down / overruled without supporting situational evidence. ...and this is the real thing about a debate - it is run on evidence and respect.

It is equally a debate because, people find it safe to come forward, because there are not too many bothersome people constantly dominating the reality of 'we all should think', like oppressive attitudes do. However, things do change if we don't have checks and balances, and outlets for our humanness.

So the wheel keeps on turning. The forum is alive. New issues emerge, old issues disappear and then reappear. New people join in the debate simply because they begin to gain confidence on a single piece of software and are valued as members of the community. In a forum of 200,000 members not everybody has read every section let alone every thread, nor more importantly, is anyone forcing or expecting them to. You go there on a 'want to know' basis. You go there because you are motivated and because there is value to you. Equally you don't spend your time telling others that a software / issue / section doesn't matter to you or them. That's bizarre, certainly questionable and very curious.

In saying that, we have to check our assumptions, put brakes on our own, and through supported evidence other people's potential to act on the basis of feelings rather logic. We have to ask ourselves whether what we counsel and what we vote for, is actually just a function of where we are at and how we feel in our life; that we have found fulfilment by relative chance, that we no longer battle for our freedom of expression (whilst others do), and not because age or mileage has given us our monopoly on the truth.

... and yes now finally to take the matter head on.

I understand Molona and Datura, that you are trail-blazers and recognised, and respected in this community and you are empowered and rational (the information is available); that you are vocal and you have posted lots and you don't wanted to be treated any differently, so I won't.
If I was to treat you just like a man I work with, I would look you both in the eyes (well, one at a time) and talk to you directly. I would ask you to explain (briefly):

If you are so sure your selves and that there is 'no-need' for a corner, why then has a such a relatively large proportion of women in the thread made their first post when a gender-related question is raised? As I don't see this first-post proportion in other threads, I would have thought that it means the issue IS important. Do you have a different take on this?

What might explain their falling silent again and does that matter?

People have talked about the possibility of there still being residual issues that make our work not gender-independent; at the same time then there is evidence in this thread that some people are benefiting from discussing and questioning the nature of their problems - to be clear whether it is personality or politics. Perhaps they are working things out and maybe blazing their own trails. Perhaps the safety is offering a chance to say stuff is not 'OK'. So what is wrong with them having the option of a section to help them focus the issues better, useful witnesses to their struggles? You not do not have to go to that section.

Perhaps I have (or may have in the future) problems with sexual politics - as server or client - in the workplace, or pornography on the Internet, or open source code being used to exploit and degrade others, or webmasters and developers not reflecting on the impact of what they are normalising by creating their forums, etc... If I want to have a safe space to understand issues that are as important as Career and Education, and would not suit General Chat where people can be a little to crass, less reflective, and just lightly letting off-steam, why can't I?

Although I know I was referring to just a 'women-related' section, which perhaps is something limited, I get the impression, you think in general this gender-focus is a bad thing for me or others. Are you protecting me from something I can't see from my side of the fence? and, if so what are the risks in your view that I haven't seen?

If there are no problems issues to address about gender why are you so vocal and relatively insistent on sharing your views in this thread? It isn't the general chat section, so why do you vest so much of your time posting here, even perhaps dominating in the number of contributions on a thread about gender-related issues if all is well and in order?

I realise I ask a lot of questions, so please don't worry if you can't answer quickly. Thanks in advance.

If you are so sure your selves and that there is 'no-need' for a corner, why then has a such a relatively large proportion of women in the thread made their first post when a gender-related question is raised? As I don't see this first-post proportion in other threads, I would have thought that it means the issue IS important. Do you have a different take on this?

It is not up to me to explain why female x has revealed that she is a woman. I find it sad actually that women, in this age, hide in the first place. If you feel that you are equal in your knowledge to your male counterparts, why hide it?

Originally Posted by franglix

What might explain their falling silent again and does that matter?

I do not know why they are silent, maybe they are not up to debating this issue on this level? Maybe there is no real issue, maybe the issues are all just emotional without a real foundation? I have seen many women who ask for special treatment just because they are women. Why? Fight for your place, men have to do so as well

Originally Posted by franglix

We talk about the possibility of there still are residual issues that make our work not gender-independent; and then there is evidence in this thread that some people benefit from discussing and questioning the nature of their problems, to be clear whether it is personality or politics. Perhaps they are working things out and maybe blazing their own trails. Perhaps the safety is offering a chance to say stuff is not 'OK'. So what is wrong with them having the option of a section to help them focus the issues better? You not do not have to go to that section.

Trying to hold back in the "safety" as you call it will not help them. A group of women who feel that this safety is necessary to talk things through have not taken a step forward at all, they are still hiding. And they stay hidden if they separate from the general members here. We are having this debate right here, within this forum, and so it should be. If you feel the need to talk about something, post it.

Originally Posted by franglix

Perhaps I have (or may have in the future) problems with sexual politics - as server or client - in the workplace, or pornography on the Internet, or open source code being used to exploit and degrade others, or webmasters and developers not reflecting on the impact of what they are normalising by creating their forums, etc... If I want to have a safe space to understand issues that are as important as Career and Education, and would not suit General Chat where people can be a little to crass, less reflective, and just lightly letting off-steam, why can't I?

I personally have no objections to porn sites. They are a business like all other businesses are. If you feel the need to take on what you call "degrade others", you need to join an action group that gets involved in this. It is a political issue really, and politics is not an issue we discuss on this forum. Just for your information, I do not see exploitation. It takes two for that, start thinking and you will not be a victim of exploitation.

A debate does not have to be in GC, the forum section Careers and Education is a great option for that. If it relates in any way to any of the other sections of the forum, go there

Originally Posted by franglix

Although I know I was referring to just a 'women-related' section, which perhaps is something limited, but I get the impression, you believe think in general this gender-focus is a bad thing for me or others. Are you protecting me from something I can't see from my side of the fence? and, if so what are the risks in your view that I haven't seen?

An artificial separation, unless you want to stay separated. You can not ask to be integrated and separate out in order to do so. In other words: You can not have your cake and eat it too.

Originally Posted by franglix

If there are no problems issues to address about gender why are you so vocal and relatively insistent on sharing your views in this thread? It isn't the general chat section, so why do you vest so much of your time posting here, even perhaps dominating in the number of contributions on a thread about gender-related issues if all is well and in order?

Because I try to open your eyes. I am very much interested that women are equal, I just do not think that your proposed method is the right way. I laid out in the above posts how I view this. By the way, I am very much equal here and I feel that way. I have no hang ups and no need to hide. By being here and taking part, I set an example, much better than just sitting around with insecure woman in a corner somewhere and talking endlessly about how badly we are treated by the male world.

It is the basic acceptance of the female role in the traditional sense that holds these women back. It is up to them to step out into the real world and claim their place.

Hawk, my chick is still a programmer but says its boring as there arent many girls to gossip with. You get the same, I guess?

I'm still a programmer also. And yup - you're right to a degree. While I'm not big on 'girl-talk' (part of the reason I fit into this male dominated environment so well I suspect), it would be nice on occasion to have another female around.

Originally Posted by franglix

In post #102 Hawk said that she appreciated that my intention 'was good', but... I know she wasn't being patronising. However, for the record I don't want to leave the impression that the issue for me is academic, as if I have no stake in the issues just because I am a man. I am by no means a casual observer.

You're right - I wasn't being patronising. Your posts are clearly well thought out and you obviously have a personal investment in the issue. I appreciate and value that. I made that comment so that you didn't feel that I was dismissing you off hand.

Thank you for calling me a respected member of this forum
Still, I have to say that, with really rare exceptions, everybody is respected here from post one. So I think I am a respected member... but so it is everyone else

Originally Posted by franglix

If you are so sure your selves and that there is 'no-need' for a corner, why then has a such a relatively large proportion of women in the thread made their first post when a gender-related question is raised?

I haven't got a clue! Honest! Maybe nobody asked their gender because it was not important for the issue in discussion and, of course, there is also the possibility that they were afraid... why? who knows. I don't. The good thing about forums is that you can keep people completely ignorant of who you are... so I can't understand why they do not post more often, or why they hide themselves.

Originally Posted by franglix

As I don't see this first-post proportion in other threads, I would have thought that it means the issue IS important. Do you have a different take on this?

No, I don't have a different take. I think that nobody is discriminised in this forum, for no reason, and this is mainly a technical forum to discuss technical stuff, and devoted to that. Maths, databases, computers, logic... and the problems related to them do not understand of genders and are completely independent of them.

Still, I would like to point out that I've said that my opinion is that it is not necessary a special "only women" area of the forum, but since it is an opinion, it is something personal. Would it be good? Well, I think it would be good for those women that do need a protected area to see that there are other women competing in a male's world. But that's all the benefit I see. I don't need a woman to get a solution for my technical problem... I need someone with an answer, man or woman.

The big question is: "is it IT a man's world?" Not in my country. There is a 50/50 ratio here. 15 years ago, when I started, things were very different! and, still, I was not mistreated because I was a woman.

I also pointed out that I have never been discriminated even in full male's world (and I started studying mining, you cannot get it more macho than that, not even in construction). Culture plays a big role, of course, but so does attitude. If they feel that can't run over you, they respect you.

Originally Posted by franglix

What might explain their falling silent again and does that matter?

It does matter, but I don't know why they felt as they had to hide... I don't know other forums, although I never had a problem in any forum I participated... but I can assure that SP is a safe space as a whole, so I can only assume that those women had bad experiences in the past... I can't help with what happened to them, I can only say that I am a woman when I am asked, that I am not afraid to say it anywhere (special area or not) and that I help when I can, and I participate in the forum when time allows it...

Originally Posted by franglix

People have talked about the possibility of there still being residual issues that make our work not gender-independent; at the same time then there is evidence in this thread that some people are benefiting from discussing and questioning the nature of their problems - to be clear whether it is personality or politics. Perhaps they are working things out and maybe blazing their own trails. Perhaps the safety is offering a chance to say stuff is not 'OK'. So what is wrong with them having the option of a section to help them focus the issues better, useful witnesses to their struggles? You not do not have to go to that section.

There is nothing wrong with it... but I still think that SP is safe, all of it, to express anything... issues that are not technical are discussed in General Chat, even politics. Yet the main purpose of this forum is not social, but technical. After a while, you know more or less who comes often and who doesn't, and who thinks this and who thinks that. But who really gets to know someone in a forum?

Anyway, if the number of people asking is big enough, I certainly do not have a problem with a female section. I will participate if there is something that holds my interest there, if not, I will participate is some other thread instead, because that's what I do.

Originally Posted by franglix

Perhaps I have (or may have in the future) problems with sexual politics - as server or client - in the workplace, or pornography on the Internet, or open source code being used to exploit and degrade others, or webmasters and developers not reflecting on the impact of what they are normalising by creating their forums, etc... If I want to have a safe space to understand issues that are as important as Career and Education, and would not suit General Chat where people can be a little to crass, less reflective, and just lightly letting off-steam, why can't I?

Well, if you ask me, I can tell you that I do have a problem with that
But I do insist that the purpose of SP is mainly technical, and specialised in web stuff, so in this case General Chat would be the right place to discuss this (open a thread there and I will be happy to explain myself further about this issue). If SP built a prominet space for this, it would be OK... but necessary? Well, that's not the word I would use.
Also, it would mean that the main purpose of SP would be changing towards becoming a more general and social forum.

Originally Posted by franglix

Although I know I was referring to just a 'women-related' section, which perhaps is something limited, I get the impression, you think in general this gender-focus is a bad thing for me or others. Are you protecting me from something I can't see from my side of the fence? and, if so what are the risks in your view that I haven't seen?

I am not protecting anyone, who would stop you to visit the female side? who can tell if you are a man or a woman?
I do think that the benefit is higher if women just acted naturally, that is, they have a technical question, people answer and, with luck, the technical problem is solved. For this, it is not important if you show yourself as a woman or not. For social stuff, it does make a change, if only due to the fact that I can be nine months with a baby in my tummy and men can't do that...

Originally Posted by franglix

If there are no problems issues to address about gender why are you so vocal and relatively insistent on sharing your views in this thread?

Well, why not? The reason is precisely what you said, because I have no problems to express my opinion either to men or women!

Originally Posted by franglix

It isn't the general chat section, so why do you vest so much of your time posting here, even perhaps dominating in the number of contributions on a thread about gender-related issues if all is well and in order?

Well, because I feel like doing it obviously, and I think that I can give my opinion, and bring a different point of view. With a bit of luck, my participation could be even helpful.

Let me remind you that posts in General Chat do not count... so my post count do not reflect the real number of posts I do... only those that I posted outside General Chat.

Also, be aware that opinions are just that, opinions, they are personal, and it is my vision of the truth... but MY vision doesn't have to be YOUR vision... and that's why it is so great.

We can disagree and still be friends... isn't it fantastic? I think it is... but then, it is my opinion only

PD: I know that you asked for short answers... sorry I was unable to make it any shorter