I agree Warriors need a DPS buff big time but seems to me they are taking a page out of Ghostcrawler's handbook and trying class manipulation i.e making tanking better than DPS to get more players to play tank, which is exactly what was done in WoW, same with heal classes, all in order to speed up que times.

Played WoW for long enough to see this same thing. Nerf the shit out of every dps spec and try to make tanking appealing, but fail at that.

btw 11 days until the assumed patch release and nothing uploaded to the pts with zero patch notes on these changes. It looks like a bunch of promises like always. After the patch the communication will come to a halt because he has all but confirmed he is completely gut'n the Paragon soul.

So automatically Champion and Paragon are useless in raids. Very few tanking changes, so warriors will stay benched. Tempest is still 20% behind every other ranged soul with zero actual survivability.

If you want to save a headache. Just switch to Mage and never look back.

Paragon seemed solid, though low in the 40-50 range. I was near the top of the charts for damage in a couple PVP matches and was second dps in an IA run. At 60 my DPS was solid and I came in at the top of IA damage.

Might as well change his forum name to Jekyl and Hide. One week the soul is powerful as shit and needs to be pounded and now it is SEVERELY behind. Electricity cascade was not even tested on a target dummy before completely removing any healing from warriors. Everything from day 1 till now has been screwed up.

If you want to tank roll Cleric or Rogue. If you want to dps roll Cleric, Mage, or Rogue. Outside of that boycott the class until they switch to another dev or enjoy the roller coaster. The same people claiming to be warrior class gurus are the same fuckers feeding Atrius reports getting us nerfed into the ground, then crying about it on the forums.

Probably 90% of the warriors want Champion to have some type of Minor single target and be king of AoE. About the same want aragon to be king of ST for warrior and have some kind of AoE. Instead we get this 100% AoE champ or 100% Paragon with zero hybrid capabilities. The ranged soul is now a complete joke compared to every other class.

He has constantly worked against the warrior players and has been proven to be a fool time and time again. Nothing I am seeing now is changing that opinion. They are 5 pages of fucking theory crafting in that thread with dick for specifics. Post the damn notes if they are going to be sweeping changes YET AGAIN in 11 days.

i.e making tanking better than DPS to get more players to play tank, which is exactly what was done in WoW, same with heal classes, all in order to speed up que times.

I doubt this applies to Rift. 3 out of 4 classes can tank. 3 out of 4 can heal. 4 out of 4 can support via off-healing, buffing or tanking. At a minimum, every class is able to queues as 3 out of 4 needed roles for LFG.

I have very rarely been in a dungeon queue for more than 10-15 mins as DPS during off hours.

There is just a higher pool of needed roles in Rift compared to Warcraft. Also Rift's dungeon reward system is somewhat different from what it was in WoW's LFD [from my recollection]. It's a much more drawn out process in Rift.

I have very rarely been in a dungeon queue for more than 10-15 mins as DPS during off hours.

Highly doubt LFG queue times are a factor in class balancing.

I have to agree that it's unlikely that DPS viability is being meddled with in order to modify queue times. Especially since warrior DPS and tank viability is being meddled with. Trion has been taking other actions with regards to queue times:

Clear support soul for all callings (yes Defiler is a support soul)

Super-clusters. Like 'em or not.

Mentor-queue.

That said, my longest wait has been just shy of 90 minutes for a normal SL dungeon at a definite off-peak playtime. Asked for it by being a party of 2 DPS in the queue. Lost the tank after the 2nd trash wipe, and ended up tanking the whole thing anyway...

That said, my longest wait has been just shy of 90 minutes for a normal SL dungeon at a definite off-peak playtime. Asked for it by being a party of 2 DPS in the queue. Lost the tank after the 2nd trash wipe, and ended up tanking the whole thing anyway...

Want to know the reason? Dungeon XP is shit and why waste a hour + in a possibly bugged instance for gear you are going to replace anyways?

Want to know the reason? Dungeon XP is shit and why waste a hour + in a possibly bugged instance for gear you are going to replace anyways?

Do you actually play the game? The only game breaking bug on dungeons in SL was the Unhallowed dungeon which could be resolve by clicking enter dungeon.

The big wait is lack of tanks. There's no tanking rewards in quests until you get closer to 60 and I'm not sure if there's any still. So you're forced to tank with level 50 gear or craft it. This doesn't make for a great experience so people started queuing DPS instead.

Yes, I waiting over an hour while leveling and completed about 6 out of 11 of my dungeons. If we got past the first boss and the tank was competent, we completed it. Otherwise we broke up.

Normal mode dungeon blues are better than quest greens so every little bit helps on the way. Every reward from the random daily dungeon and random pvp was an upgrade until I hit 59. I made a point of running my daily pvp every morning.

GOLEM FOUNDRY
* Addressed an issue where some bosses could become non-attackable upon an instance reset.
* Tooltips for UV-315 and Manslaughter correctly list them as Constructs.
* Expert: Removed Grapplebot's ability to make pets flee from their owner's control while he is alive.

TOWER OF THE SHATTERED
* Psychophage Primakov: Addressed an issue that could occasionally cause Primakov's corpse to be unlootable.
* Psychophage Primakov: Energy drain abilities can no longer affect Primakov.

TRIUMPH OF THE DRAGON QUEEN [Sliver]
* Jultharin: Fixed an issue that could cause the walls around Jultharin to return after a successful kill.
* General Typhiria: Storm Blast should not be hitting targets outside of its warning area.
* The 'Possessed Cyril' intro will no longer play on an instance reset if Cyril has already been killed.

UNHALLOWED BONEFORGE
* You should no longer be allowed behind the Necrotic Throne.
* Bruzhail: Meathook is now cleansable.
* Now with fewer "smiley face walls".

My bad for not wanting to deal with the below shit. Lack of tanks right now is caused by Warriors being dogshit in raids and instances getting completely destroyed compared to clerics and rogues.

Having a commitment from a developer to let you know of every little minor detailed change to their game does not mean you have an excuse to use that exact same detail to voice concerns over quality. There are 2 fixed exploits in that entire list (The Throne and the sheeping) - and quoting a list that includes fixing tooltips, boss movement speed, and minor changes to boss damage hardly underlines any point you are trying to make.

Posts like yours above only have ONE possible consequence, namely, that the developer will stop being so forthcoming in their communication approach and make stealth changes with no regard for the community.

Warriors are behind, ok fine. the developer is openly communicating with the community on expected changes and the PTS is under preparation as we speak. Having a broken class rectified in under (say) 3 weeks is still record timing. you aren't exactly going through an entire expansion (or months and months on end) being worthless, like we've seen in other games and its hardly worth complaining about - considering that Warriors WERE the GO-TO tanks for the entirety of classic Rift.

Last edited by Antipathy; 2012-11-30 at 09:45 PM.

{I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it. }

Warriors are behind, ok fine. the developer is openly communicating with the community on expected changes and the PTS is under preparation as we speak. Having a broken class rectified in under (say) 3 weeks is still record timing. you aren't exactly going through an entire expansion (or months and months on end) being worthless, like we've seen in other games and its hardly worth complaining about - considering that Warriors WERE the GO-TO tanks for the entirety of classic Rift.

This will be the 6th time warriors have under gone "sweeping" changes. That thread is a joke. Atrius probably got chewed out by Scott Hartsman after he read the surveys from people unsubbing over this shit.

Now he communicates. This is a cycle he does and he has lost complete trust from me and a hell of alot of other warriors that he can handle the job. He will communicate now, but when asked for specifics he points to the 2.1 pts.

I am sorry, but when I link a post where he basically calls Paragon OP, then post another thing less then a week later saying the class needs significant dps boost it test my faith on if he knows WTF he is doing.

Sorry I sound condescending when numbers are presented that clearly prove he is full of shit lying out right and then is made to publically look like an idiot on a ability he in no way shape or form tested and then allowed to go live.

No he post he is looking into survivability after he guts the survivability move from the archea type that actually worked. Did he take his meds today? Was he drunk a week ago when he was posting that our survivability was fine and our DPS was super OP?

Like I said before. Everything outside of warriors in this expansion has been badass.

Want to know the reason? Dungeon XP is shit and why waste a hour + in a possibly bugged instance for gear you are going to replace anyways?

Yeah, why even bother putting non-max level instances in the game anyways! I mean, you just replace the gear! /sarcasm

Dungeon XP is actually pretty awesome with the daily reward, and the rewards are similarly pretty awesome and will last you for a good bit.

Originally Posted by Puremallace

My bad for not wanting to deal with the below shit. Lack of tanks right now is caused by Warriors being dogshit in raids and instances getting completely destroyed compared to clerics and rogues.

Wait...content isn't going to be perfect at game launch? I don't believe.

If you look, most of those are tweaks rather than fixes for super serious bugs. I don't see how much of it "shit" considering something like, "Now with fewer 'smiley face walls'" doesn't really affect the performance of the dungeon...

And do you have any evidence that there are no warrior tanks queuing for leveling dungeons right now? Because anecdotally, the overwhelming majority of tanks in the dungeons I've run are warriors. The minority has actually been cleric tanks.

And do you have any evidence that there are no warrior tanks queuing for leveling dungeons right now? Because anecdotally, the overwhelming majority of tanks in the dungeons I've run are warriors. The minority has actually been cleric tanks.

Warriors might be que'n, but watch the charts to see how much healing they need. The incoming hits are just brutal.

My bad for not wanting to deal with the below shit. Lack of tanks right now is caused by Warriors being dogshit in raids and instances getting completely destroyed compared to clerics and rogues.

Ok, what about Cleric and Rogue tanks then? The lack of tanks is entirely due to there not being ANY quest rewards that allow you to tank, warrior or not. I wanted to run dungeons on my rogue on the way up leveling, however queing as DPS/Support took to long and I could not que as tank because I had no tank gear at all. Despite having run both continents and having to throw away nearly identical sets of leather DPS gear. This is very poor design IMO. There should have been tanking rewards from quests while leveling. period. This is also the reason for lack of tanks.

Also, as for Warriors being completely destroyed, it's weird that most of the dungeon runs I have been on, Experts, and Raids have included Warriors. Granted, they are not on top of the DPS meters and the healers have to work a little harder or use support with a Warrior tank, but a Warrior is completely capable of getting raid ready and performing in raid content currently.

---------- Post added 2012-11-30 at 04:22 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Puremallace

Warriors might be que'n, but watch the charts to see how much healing they need. The incoming hits are just brutal.

Then to me, since Warriors are capable, and clearing the runs, the clear answer is to nerf clerics, not buff warriors.

So obvious problem. For a year and a half warriors were king. One simple change moves us to the back of the pack and now Rogues who have been dps/support and Cleric heals/dps are now lead tanks. Any Cleric smart enough to be raid geared before this patch is getting INSTANT queue's for instances and breezing through them.

Warriors might be que'n, but watch the charts to see how much healing they need. The incoming hits are just brutal.

As long as the content is being downed, they're viable. So for leveling, they're absolutely viable. At higher levels of play, I agree they need buffs. But claiming there are no warrior tanks queuing is foolish, because it's simply not true. I can't say I've noticed any higher incoming damage on warriors compared to clerics/rogues while leveling though. But again, I'm not paying super close attention to the incoming damage numbers on the tank, just feeling it by healing.

Originally Posted by Puremallace

So obvious problem. For a year and a half warriors were king. One simple change moves us to the back of the pack and now Rogues who have been dps/support and Cleric heals/dps are now lead tanks. Any Cleric smart enough to be raid geared before this patch is getting INSTANT queue's for instances and breezing through them.

I'm not quite sure I get what you're trying to say here...We know warriors need some buffs, and Trion is working on them (though we know Atrius is super frustrating and not very good...at all). What is this about clerics though? Why are they "breezing" through instances? Granted I don't have any tank gear on my cleric so I don't tank (therefor, no instant queues), but I haven't been "breezing" through any easier with clerics in my group. About the same as when I'm the only cleric in my group, it all depends on if the other's in the dungeon can avoid fire and complete basic boss mechanics.

Warriors don't really need mitigation buffs. They need mitigation fixes since there are a number of abilities that are ignoring Warrior mitigation completely.
Did some testing on a certain mob with issues, was getting hit for ~1350 with 0 Soul Points, ~1300 with 54 Pal, ~900 with Riftblade/Warlord. Pretty obvious the mitigation isn't always working as intended. Note this was a mob in Chocolate Rift that thousands of people were killing daily and none of them noticed for all of 1.11, so it's not purely a testing fail.

Warriors don't really need mitigation buffs. They need mitigation fixes since there are a number of abilities that are ignoring Warrior mitigation completely.

My running theory and Rough on the forums points it out. Our dps was changed so much in 1.11 that noone actually paid attention to what happened to tanking. Honestly noone noticed shit because we were wearing tier 3 ID epics to regular experts.

I am not sure who to blame alpha testers, Atrius, or QA. My problem is either Atrius is being fed dog shit data by external or internal forces or he is simply a figure head that has not real power, but something is seriously wrong with warriors right now.

Be it dps, mitigation for tanking, or survivability doing solo content someone is not looking outside the box. If they want the WoW model for the Rift warrior class someone needs to man up and just say that "we want pure spec builds and the death of hybrids".

It is clear there are issues and I seriously need a break from the roller coaster.

Well RR got it from our Skype channel where Bloodbourne actually discovered it, doing his level 50 crafting daily of all things!
People were overgeared, that's exactly the reason they didn't notice. I sure as hell never looked at my incoming damage when I was trying to get out of experts asap. Nothing ever went wrong, no reason to check things.

I did a helluva lot of mitigation calculation and parsing on mobs in Alpha, it just happens that all of the ones I tested on were respecting Warrior mitigation correctly.

Also, saying X class takes 10% more damage doesn't mean a damned thing. The question really should be "Are warriors taking more spike damage?" If they're taking 10% more damage, but smoothing it out more, that can actually be fine.

Least total damage taken is not a tanking measurement that leads anywhere. 10% more total damage taken gets lost in the overheal, anyway. Now, if a class takes more spike damage (shield classes usually don't, by the way), then you might have a case. Otherwise, 10% doesn't mean anything.

Would it be nice if it was less than 5%? Sure. But, they're not 'useless' now, as some of you claim. I just think some of you got used to being the best at *everything* but healing, and haven't realized it's OK if other classes can tank viably, too.