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Re: Can we pursue Andre Milller (S&T)

I would like to keep the pick, maybe top 8 protected at least. But the thing people forget is why you are trading. The reason a lot of teams don't worry as much about trading a pick is because they are trading to get better. Dre is a huge improvement at PG for the Pacers, he's a perfect "efficiency" type of PG, doesn't overshoot, protects the ball but without having to be ultra-conservative, rebounds decently, decent defense, and frankly I thought Philly burned Denver in the Dre for AI deal.

Dre would be able to keep the Pacers at least where they were this year, so that means picking outside the top 10. That's not the cost here. The cost is salary concerns. You are "extending TJ" at that point, meaning your are locked into that PG money for sure. That's why Philly wants out after all.

Okay, so they don't want Ford, but with a top 8 protected, top 3-5 for year 2, I think they would be interested, at least enough to bring a 3rd team into the mix if possible.

I really want one of the Louisville bigs in next years draft and I'm hoping they can be had with picks 12-15, at least Jennings. But I can live with giving that up to adjust Ford for Miller. Maturity and leadership at PG go a LOOOONNNGGG way.

You know it's not like Jax wasn't at the end of his career in 98-2000 and that was a pretty nice run. I think AJ Price would benefit a lot more from playing behind Dre than Price as well.

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Re: Can we pursue Andre Milller (S&T)

That's fine and all, we get better short term, but it seems like we are building for the long term, and I don't see how this trade benefits us in the long term. AJ Price will probably never be a starting caliber PG anyway. Dre doesn't make us a championship team either, so why bother with the deal?

Re: Can we pursue Andre Milller (S&T)

That's fine and all, we get better short term, but it seems like we are building for the long term, and I don't see how this trade benefits us in the long term. AJ Price will probably never be a starting caliber PG anyway. Dre doesn't make us a championship team either, so why bother with the deal?

Winning breeds winning. Andre Miller makes us a very legitimate playoff contender this season, even while playing young guys like Rush, Hibbert, and Hansbrough for big minutes. If we can win now with young players who are only going to get better, it's worth a bit of financial strain and a few draft slots. Not to mention that just making the playoffs would likely cure many of our financial woes.

Re: Can we pursue Andre Milller (S&T)

Winning breeds winning. Andre Miller makes us a very legitimate playoff contender this season, even while playing young guys like Rush, Hibbert, and Hansbrough for big minutes. If we can win now with young players who are only going to get better, it's worth a bit of financial strain and a few draft slots. Not to mention that just making the playoffs would likely cure many of our financial woes.

Very good points, and if it brings in revenue, better for the Pacers. However, even then do we have enough to "contend" for the title? Does Miller/Rush/Granger/MurphBorough/HibbaFoster make us one of the teams that can win the title? Or will we be stuck in the Atlanta Hawks/Washington Wizards zone?

Re: Can we pursue Andre Milller (S&T)

Very good points, and if it brings in revenue, better for the Pacers. However, even then do we have enough to "contend" for the title? Does Miller/Rush/Granger/MurphBorough/HibbaFoster make us one of the teams that can win the title? Or will we be stuck in the Atlanta Hawks/Washington Wizards zone?

The only chance we have at contending for a title is to wait and hope that Rush, Granger, Hansbrough, and Hibbert develop well together. I think that playing with vets like Miller and making the playoffs would only aid that development.

Re: Can we pursue Andre Milller (S&T)

I would like to keep the pick, maybe top 8 protected at least. But the thing people forget is why you are trading. The reason a lot of teams don't worry as much about trading a pick is because they are trading to get better. Dre is a huge improvement at PG for the Pacers, he's a perfect "efficiency" type of PG, doesn't overshoot, protects the ball but without having to be ultra-conservative, rebounds decently, decent defense, and frankly I thought Philly burned Denver in the Dre for AI deal.

Dre would be able to keep the Pacers at least where they were this year, so that means picking outside the top 10. That's not the cost here. The cost is salary concerns. You are "extending TJ" at that point, meaning your are locked into that PG money for sure. That's why Philly wants out after all.

Okay, so they don't want Ford, but with a top 8 protected, top 3-5 for year 2, I think they would be interested, at least enough to bring a 3rd team into the mix if possible.

I really want one of the Louisville bigs in next years draft and I'm hoping they can be had with picks 12-15, at least Jennings. But I can live with giving that up to adjust Ford for Miller. Maturity and leadership at PG go a LOOOONNNGGG way.

You know it's not like Jax wasn't at the end of his career in 98-2000 and that was a pretty nice run. I think AJ Price would benefit a lot more from playing behind Dre than Price as well.

Re: Can we pursue Andre Milller (S&T)

The only chance we have at contending for a title is to wait and hope that Rush, Granger, Hansbrough, and Hibbert develop well together. I think that playing with vets like Miller and making the playoffs would only aid that development.

And what happens if their grow is based off of consistent PG play, and once Dre drops off (inevitable), they regress because we can't find a consistent replacement?

Re: Can we pursue Andre Milller (S&T)

Andre Miller is 33 going on 28. I wouldn't be surprised if he plays into his 40s.

Yeah, I don't know if I can agree with this. The games and wear/tear on his body will catch him, and probably sooner than later. You give him a four year deal, and he is noticeably worse in year 4 than year 1.

Re: Can we pursue Andre Milller (S&T)

On the other hand, I reference Keynon Martin and Richard Jefferson as players who looked better next to a good PG and then regressed.

Once Dre drops off we need a very good pg waiting to replace him. I don't see us finding one.

Everyone looks better with a good PG playing next to them. Who wouldn't? That's not a good reason to pass on a good point guard at that time. Also, if Dre drops off in a couple years, of course you can't see us finding one. IT'S YEARS IN THE FUTURE.

That's just terrible logic. I'd love to hear that conversation in public one day ....

Guy 1 - Man, Andre Miller is available. We should go get him!

Guy 2 - Eh, no thanks. Our guys will get used to having a good teammate at point guard, then when he leaves all of our players will suck because they're used to having a good teammate. That's a terrible idea.

-- I would literally laugh out loud in someone's face if they implied that in the real world as a good reason to pass on a good PG.

I would absolutely love to hear Bird give a press conference or issue a public statement and give this speech: "Well guys, we had a chance at Andre Miller. Why did we pass on him, you might ask? Well, we decided that the current players would get too used to the idea of having a guy giving them the ball in a position to score. A good teammate, if you will ..... and that's just a problem we simply can't tolerate in this organization."

Re: Can we pursue Andre Milller (S&T)

Andre Miller is 33 going on 28. I wouldn't be surprised if he plays into his 40s.

It really is remarkable....

Games played:

82
82
81
80
82
82
82
80
82
82

The only guy I can think of that ripped off that many 80 game seasons in a row is the Mailman (he played in at least 80 games in every season until his final one, with the exception being the 99 lockout season where he played 49), and he was the epitome of longevity.

I think Miller probably has about 8 years left in the league. Guys with that kind of consistently just don't all the sudden break down. He has played in that many games for a reason.

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Re: Can we pursue Andre Milller (S&T)

I'm sorry if my logic seems terrible to you. But false hope is false hope and better does not mean championship, so, in light of that, why make this move? Why make our guys look better now, put expectations that they will grow at a ridiculous curve because Dre is there, and then once Dre falls off, the team disappoints and then we'll do something radical like fire Bird/Obbie/whoever coaches the team then and start another 3-10 year rebuilding cycle? Just doesn't seem worth it. Assume that Dre has 2-3 years left in him, which is probably realistic or a bit optimisitic- the Pacers won't contend in those 2-3 years, we lose assets, and we make the team better short term and worse long term. It may inflate the value of some of our core, but then I doubt we trade the core.

Getting Dre for a few good years just doesn't make sense. I don't want our players spoiled by a good PG and then get worse because all of a sudden we can't find one to replace Dre.

The assets required to give up to get Dre to make us a playoff but not contending team and to raise undue expectations is not worth the risk.

Re: Can we pursue Andre Milller (S&T)

Andre Miller is a decent PG but he is not the second star player the pacers need to go to the next level, he could give them five more wins a year an a worse position in the draft and like I said before, he is asking close to 10mil a year, I am sorry but I rather stay with TJ until the pacers can get a better PG either through trade or draft.

@WhatTheFFacts: Studies show that sarcasm enhances the ability of the human mind to solve complex problems!

Re: Can we pursue Andre Milller (S&T)

Andre Miller is a solid player, but he's also 33. We're accumulating some good young talent to build our future around. Let's not screw that up by making a move for a guy who's never made his teams any better and who'll be looking for a good retirement home by the time Rush, Hibbert and Hansbrough are in their primes.

Re: Can we pursue Andre Milller (S&T)

You know what else gives guys false hope? Having a good rebounder to pick up their misses. Guys need to get used to hitting their shots, not counting on having some rebounding genius to do the dirty work. That's why I hope Hans/Hibby never get more than 3 or 4 rebounds per game. It really gives guys a false sense of security when they play next to somebody who can get rebounds.

Also, I think Hibbert's development is probably going to be hurt if we have good shooters from the outside. Having a wing/backcourt rotation that can consistently hit 40% from deep is going to allow him to get used to having room to work in the paint, which is clearly not wise. I mean, he needs to develop moves that can get his shot off against multiple defenders, and he's not going to learn that if we have offensive threats outside that allow him to only go up against one man at a time.

At the same time, I think our perimeter players really need to not assume they'll have an inside threat to play off of. They'll get used to their guy sagging off them to protect the paint, which will give them a few split seconds to get their shots off. They simply won't have that when Roy goes down with an injury or out with foul trouble, so it's problematic if they learn to count on having somebody who can do some damage inside.

So basically for the good of the team, we need to make sure we don't have a good quarterback, a good rebounder, a good post threat, or good shooters. I'm not sure how to balance all of those concerns out, but I'm sure you'll explain it to us. Whatever it is, I know the team will be better off if we can get rid of the guys who fit those qualifications.

Re: Can we pursue Andre Milller (S&T)

Very good points, and if it brings in revenue, better for the Pacers. However, even then do we have enough to "contend" for the title? Does Miller/Rush/Granger/MurphBorough/HibbaFoster make us one of the teams that can win the title? Or will we be stuck in the Atlanta Hawks/Washington Wizards zone?

No team has ever won the title that didn't make the playoffs. We're not going from 0-Championship in 60 seconds. There are a lot of steps to breeding a winning culture, and bringing in players like Miller is one of them. Not every move needs to be analyzed as the 'Silver Bullet' to make us a championship contender. He's a winner, and God knows we need as much of that as we can get our hands on.

Re: Can we pursue Andre Milller (S&T)

That's fine and all, we get better short term, but it seems like we are building for the long term, and I don't see how this trade benefits us in the long term. AJ Price will probably never be a starting caliber PG anyway. Dre doesn't make us a championship team either, so why bother with the deal?

You mean like Derek Fisher or Byron Scott or Chauncy Billups didn't help their teams? Or in some other way?

Dre isn't going to be out there on a freaking walker, and he won't be the last PG the team ever has. Why can't they acquire his replacement during year 3? Why can't he be the vet for a few years, and then as he's phased out the vet becomes Danny, Rush, and Roy all bringing a younger PG under their wing?

I don't get where you have to have one of the 3 best PGs in the conference to go to the Finals. Did Mark Jackson make the AS team while with the Pacers (answer - no). But they sure as hell were a championship caliber squad.