Dr. Craig says that perhaps only in a world with this much suffering, could the most people come to a loving relationship with God and know him. However, in the same breath, he concedes that the suffering in the world is the biggest obstacle with regards to believing in God. However, isn"t belief in God a necessary condition to know him? If all the suffering in the world is the #1 reason people don"t believe in God (and thus, don"t know God), then how can a world with this much suffering entail the most people know God?!That makes no sense to me. Dr. Craig admits that all the suffering in the world is the #1 reason people don"t even believe God exists (all the people that don"t believe in him, cannot know him), yet, says that perhaps only in a world with this much suffering can people come to know him?

At 12/18/2013 2:40:08 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:Dr. Craig says that perhaps only in a world with this much suffering, could the most people come to a loving relationship with God and know him. However, in the same breath, he concedes that the suffering in the world is the biggest obstacle with regards to believing in God. However, isn"t belief in God a necessary condition to know him? If all the suffering in the world is the #1 reason people don"t believe in God (and thus, don"t know God), then how can a world with this much suffering entail the most people know God?!That makes no sense to me. Dr. Craig admits that all the suffering in the world is the #1 reason people don"t even believe God exists (all the people that don"t believe in him, cannot know him), yet, says that perhaps only in a world with this much suffering can people come to know him?

Well it means that because of the suffering we have trouble coming to believe in him, however if we do come to believe in him then only in a world of suffering like this one can we come to properly know him.

At 12/18/2013 2:40:08 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:Dr. Craig says that perhaps only in a world with this much suffering, could the most people come to a loving relationship with God and know him. However, in the same breath, he concedes that the suffering in the world is the biggest obstacle with regards to believing in God. However, isn"t belief in God a necessary condition to know him? If all the suffering in the world is the #1 reason people don"t believe in God (and thus, don"t know God), then how can a world with this much suffering entail the most people know God?!That makes no sense to me. Dr. Craig admits that all the suffering in the world is the #1 reason people don"t even believe God exists (all the people that don"t believe in him, cannot know him), yet, says that perhaps only in a world with this much suffering can people come to know him?

Well it means that because of the suffering we have trouble coming to believe in him, however if we do come to believe in him then only in a world of suffering like this one can we come to properly know him.

We cannot know him if we don't believe in him. Thus, if suffering is the #1 reason why people don't believe in him, then a world with less suffering would mean more people believe in him. Thus, more people would know him.

At 12/18/2013 2:40:08 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:Dr. Craig says that perhaps only in a world with this much suffering, could the most people come to a loving relationship with God and know him. However, in the same breath, he concedes that the suffering in the world is the biggest obstacle with regards to believing in God. However, isn"t belief in God a necessary condition to know him? If all the suffering in the world is the #1 reason people don"t believe in God (and thus, don"t know God), then how can a world with this much suffering entail the most people know God?!That makes no sense to me. Dr. Craig admits that all the suffering in the world is the #1 reason people don"t even believe God exists (all the people that don"t believe in him, cannot know him), yet, says that perhaps only in a world with this much suffering can people come to know him?

Well it means that because of the suffering we have trouble coming to believe in him, however if we do come to believe in him then only in a world of suffering like this one can we come to properly know him.

We cannot know him if we don't believe in him. Thus, if suffering is the #1 reason why people don't believe in him, then a world with less suffering would mean more people believe in him. Thus, more people would know him.

No because in a world with less suffering no one would know him as without all the suffering you cannot properly know him. So in a world with less suffering more people would believe in him but no one would know him.

At 12/18/2013 2:40:08 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:Dr. Craig says that perhaps only in a world with this much suffering, could the most people come to a loving relationship with God and know him. However, in the same breath, he concedes that the suffering in the world is the biggest obstacle with regards to believing in God. However, isn"t belief in God a necessary condition to know him? If all the suffering in the world is the #1 reason people don"t believe in God (and thus, don"t know God), then how can a world with this much suffering entail the most people know God?!That makes no sense to me. Dr. Craig admits that all the suffering in the world is the #1 reason people don"t even believe God exists (all the people that don"t believe in him, cannot know him), yet, says that perhaps only in a world with this much suffering can people come to know him?

Well it means that because of the suffering we have trouble coming to believe in him, however if we do come to believe in him then only in a world of suffering like this one can we come to properly know him.

We cannot know him if we don't believe in him. Thus, if suffering is the #1 reason why people don't believe in him, then a world with less suffering would mean more people believe in him. Thus, more people would know him.

No because in a world with less suffering no one would know him as without all the suffering you cannot properly know him.

Why is suffering necessary to properly know him? Wouldn't an all loving God make it so we could know him without horrible suffering? He is omnipotent after all; he can do anything logically possible.

So in a world with less suffering more people would believe in him but no one would know him.

At 12/18/2013 2:40:08 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:Dr. Craig says that perhaps only in a world with this much suffering, could the most people come to a loving relationship with God and know him. However, in the same breath, he concedes that the suffering in the world is the biggest obstacle with regards to believing in God. However, isn"t belief in God a necessary condition to know him? If all the suffering in the world is the #1 reason people don"t believe in God (and thus, don"t know God), then how can a world with this much suffering entail the most people know God?!That makes no sense to me. Dr. Craig admits that all the suffering in the world is the #1 reason people don"t even believe God exists (all the people that don"t believe in him, cannot know him), yet, says that perhaps only in a world with this much suffering can people come to know him?

Well it means that because of the suffering we have trouble coming to believe in him, however if we do come to believe in him then only in a world of suffering like this one can we come to properly know him.

We cannot know him if we don't believe in him. Thus, if suffering is the #1 reason why people don't believe in him, then a world with less suffering would mean more people believe in him. Thus, more people would know him.

No because in a world with less suffering no one would know him as without all the suffering you cannot properly know him.

Why is suffering necessary to properly know him? Wouldn't an all loving God make it so we could know him without horrible suffering? He is omnipotent after all; he can do anything logically possible.

So in a world with less suffering more people would believe in him but no one would know him.

That still doesn't make much sense.

Because the fact he is god is sort of irrelevant for getting to know him. Just like anyone else, if you want to properly get to know god you have to know him through the good times and the bad. So while you may get a fairly good impression of him and get to know him a little bit during good times, you can't completely know him until you've known him through bad times as well.

At 12/18/2013 2:40:08 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:Dr. Craig says that perhaps only in a world with this much suffering, could the most people come to a loving relationship with God and know him. However, in the same breath, he concedes that the suffering in the world is the biggest obstacle with regards to believing in God. However, isn"t belief in God a necessary condition to know him? If all the suffering in the world is the #1 reason people don"t believe in God (and thus, don"t know God), then how can a world with this much suffering entail the most people know God?!That makes no sense to me. Dr. Craig admits that all the suffering in the world is the #1 reason people don"t even believe God exists (all the people that don"t believe in him, cannot know him), yet, says that perhaps only in a world with this much suffering can people come to know him?

This is where some one like Craig to me show's he is full of crap, and only cares about promoting religious belief over reason. Why do I say this ?

Cause Craig uses the mere possibility that there is a God who allows XYZ to refute the logical problem of evil/suffering etc etc.

But when it is put to him about the mere possibility that if God existed he could achieve whatever without suffering/baby cancer etc etc, we have to hear about how God just can't do it unless he allows or make such things happen..........

All powerful, all wise, capabilities beyond human comprehension yet he just can't figure out how to achiever it's goals without......................baby cancer.

Right..............................

"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12

At 12/18/2013 2:40:08 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:Dr. Craig says that perhaps only in a world with this much suffering, could the most people come to a loving relationship with God and know him. However, in the same breath, he concedes that the suffering in the world is the biggest obstacle with regards to believing in God. However, isn"t belief in God a necessary condition to know him? If all the suffering in the world is the #1 reason people don"t believe in God (and thus, don"t know God), then how can a world with this much suffering entail the most people know God?!That makes no sense to me. Dr. Craig admits that all the suffering in the world is the #1 reason people don"t even believe God exists (all the people that don"t believe in him, cannot know him), yet, says that perhaps only in a world with this much suffering can people come to know him?

Well it means that because of the suffering we have trouble coming to believe in him, however if we do come to believe in him then only in a world of suffering like this one can we come to properly know him.

We cannot know him if we don't believe in him. Thus, if suffering is the #1 reason why people don't believe in him, then a world with less suffering would mean more people believe in him. Thus, more people would know him.

No because in a world with less suffering no one would know him as without all the suffering you cannot properly know him.

Why is suffering necessary to properly know him? Wouldn't an all loving God make it so we could know him without horrible suffering? He is omnipotent after all; he can do anything logically possible.

So in a world with less suffering more people would believe in him but no one would know him.

That still doesn't make much sense.

Because the fact he is god is sort of irrelevant for getting to know him. Just like anyone else, if you want to properly get to know god you have to know him through the good times and the bad. So while you may get a fairly good impression of him and get to know him a little bit during good times, you can't completely know him until you've known him through bad times as well.

At 12/18/2013 2:40:08 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:Dr. Craig says that perhaps only in a world with this much suffering, could the most people come to a loving relationship with God and know him. However, in the same breath, he concedes that the suffering in the world is the biggest obstacle with regards to believing in God. However, isn"t belief in God a necessary condition to know him? If all the suffering in the world is the #1 reason people don"t believe in God (and thus, don"t know God), then how can a world with this much suffering entail the most people know God?!That makes no sense to me. Dr. Craig admits that all the suffering in the world is the #1 reason people don"t even believe God exists (all the people that don"t believe in him, cannot know him), yet, says that perhaps only in a world with this much suffering can people come to know him?

Insightful reflection, rationalthinker.

Obviously suffering presents a problem to the perception of an omni-benevolent God, which most people through no fault of their own find attractive. There are ways around this issue, like the one I advocate, where God is not perfect and God cannot do everything. In such a universe man has to discover the limits of God and discover the unavoidable consequences of human actions.

Humans become explorers of right and wrong, of creation and destruction, and ultimately memory and written accounts of of history and historical events serve as encyclopedias of knowledge that man must rely on, both to understand the world around them and their God.

In this way God becomes imperfect and "evil" becomes subjective. And the value of each philosophy can be measured by the results they obtain, in terms of pleasure and pain, reward and misery - so "good" and "bad" still carry some legitimate weight.

If there is a God (which I can tell you emphatically that there is) this is the God that MUST exist! It may not be the ideal feel-good creator we were taught about in Sunday School, but it is God none the less.

And because it is imperfect, we have even more of an obligation to understand it.

At 12/18/2013 2:40:08 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:Dr. Craig says that perhaps only in a world with this much suffering, could the most people come to a loving relationship with God and know him. However, in the same breath, he concedes that the suffering in the world is the biggest obstacle with regards to believing in God. However, isn"t belief in God a necessary condition to know him? If all the suffering in the world is the #1 reason people don"t believe in God (and thus, don"t know God), then how can a world with this much suffering entail the most people know God?!That makes no sense to me. Dr. Craig admits that all the suffering in the world is the #1 reason people don"t even believe God exists (all the people that don"t believe in him, cannot know him), yet, says that perhaps only in a world with this much suffering can people come to know him?

Insightful reflection, rationalthinker.

Obviously suffering presents a problem to the perception of an omni-benevolent God, which most people through no fault of their own find attractive. There are ways around this issue, like the one I advocate, where God is not perfect and God cannot do everything. In such a universe man has to discover the limits of God and discover the unavoidable consequences of human actions.

Humans become explorers of right and wrong, of creation and destruction, and ultimately memory and written accounts of of history and historical events serve as encyclopedias of knowledge that man must rely on, both to understand the world around them and their God.

In this way God becomes imperfect and "evil" becomes subjective. And the value of each philosophy can be measured by the results they obtain, in terms of pleasure and pain, reward and misery - so "good" and "bad" still carry some legitimate weight.

If there is a God (which I can tell you emphatically that there is) this is the God that MUST exist! It may not be the ideal feel-good creator we were taught about in Sunday School, but it is God none the less.

And because it is imperfect, we have even more of an obligation to understand it.

Emphatically? WOW?What is it's purpose?

No man ever believes that the Bible means what it says: He is always convinced that it says what he means.
George Bernard Shaw

At 12/18/2013 2:40:08 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:Dr. Craig says that perhaps only in a world with this much suffering, could the most people come to a loving relationship with God and know him. However, in the same breath, he concedes that the suffering in the world is the biggest obstacle with regards to believing in God. However, isn"t belief in God a necessary condition to know him? If all the suffering in the world is the #1 reason people don"t believe in God (and thus, don"t know God), then how can a world with this much suffering entail the most people know God?!That makes no sense to me. Dr. Craig admits that all the suffering in the world is the #1 reason people don"t even believe God exists (all the people that don"t believe in him, cannot know him), yet, says that perhaps only in a world with this much suffering can people come to know him?

Insightful reflection, rationalthinker.

Obviously suffering presents a problem to the perception of an omni-benevolent God, which most people through no fault of their own find attractive. There are ways around this issue, like the one I advocate, where God is not perfect and God cannot do everything. In such a universe man has to discover the limits of God and discover the unavoidable consequences of human actions.

Humans become explorers of right and wrong, of creation and destruction, and ultimately memory and written accounts of of history and historical events serve as encyclopedias of knowledge that man must rely on, both to understand the world around them and their God.

In this way God becomes imperfect and "evil" becomes subjective. And the value of each philosophy can be measured by the results they obtain, in terms of pleasure and pain, reward and misery - so "good" and "bad" still carry some legitimate weight.

If there is a God (which I can tell you emphatically that there is) this is the God that MUST exist! It may not be the ideal feel-good creator we were taught about in Sunday School, but it is God none the less.

And because it is imperfect, we have even more of an obligation to understand it.

Emphatically? WOW?What is it's purpose?

It has an identical purpose to all intelligent life: to establish positive, artificial meaning for itself. I believe that God has the heart and mind of an existentialist.

It exist, and it wants to create an extraordinary, life-affirming world.

At 12/18/2013 2:40:08 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:Dr. Craig says that perhaps only in a world with this much suffering, could the most people come to a loving relationship with God and know him. However, in the same breath, he concedes that the suffering in the world is the biggest obstacle with regards to believing in God. However, isn"t belief in God a necessary condition to know him? If all the suffering in the world is the #1 reason people don"t believe in God (and thus, don"t know God), then how can a world with this much suffering entail the most people know God?!That makes no sense to me. Dr. Craig admits that all the suffering in the world is the #1 reason people don"t even believe God exists (all the people that don"t believe in him, cannot know him), yet, says that perhaps only in a world with this much suffering can people come to know him?

Insightful reflection, rationalthinker.

Obviously suffering presents a problem to the perception of an omni-benevolent God, which most people through no fault of their own find attractive. There are ways around this issue, like the one I advocate, where God is not perfect and God cannot do everything. In such a universe man has to discover the limits of God and discover the unavoidable consequences of human actions.

Humans become explorers of right and wrong, of creation and destruction, and ultimately memory and written accounts of of history and historical events serve as encyclopedias of knowledge that man must rely on, both to understand the world around them and their God.

In this way God becomes imperfect and "evil" becomes subjective. And the value of each philosophy can be measured by the results they obtain, in terms of pleasure and pain, reward and misery - so "good" and "bad" still carry some legitimate weight.

If there is a God (which I can tell you emphatically that there is) this is the God that MUST exist! It may not be the ideal feel-good creator we were taught about in Sunday School, but it is God none the less.

And because it is imperfect, we have even more of an obligation to understand it.

Emphatically? WOW?What is it's purpose?

It has an identical purpose to all intelligent life: to establish positive, artificial meaning for itself. I believe that God has the heart and mind of an existentialist.

It exist, and it wants to create an extraordinary, life-affirming world.

What CAN it do? Do you mean world as in planet?

No man ever believes that the Bible means what it says: He is always convinced that it says what he means.
George Bernard Shaw

At 12/18/2013 2:40:08 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:Dr. Craig says that perhaps only in a world with this much suffering, could the most people come to a loving relationship with God and know him. However, in the same breath, he concedes that the suffering in the world is the biggest obstacle with regards to believing in God. However, isn"t belief in God a necessary condition to know him? If all the suffering in the world is the #1 reason people don"t believe in God (and thus, don"t know God), then how can a world with this much suffering entail the most people know God?!That makes no sense to me. Dr. Craig admits that all the suffering in the world is the #1 reason people don"t even believe God exists (all the people that don"t believe in him, cannot know him), yet, says that perhaps only in a world with this much suffering can people come to know him?

Insightful reflection, rationalthinker.

Obviously suffering presents a problem to the perception of an omni-benevolent God, which most people through no fault of their own find attractive. There are ways around this issue, like the one I advocate, where God is not perfect and God cannot do everything. In such a universe man has to discover the limits of God and discover the unavoidable consequences of human actions.

Humans become explorers of right and wrong, of creation and destruction, and ultimately memory and written accounts of of history and historical events serve as encyclopedias of knowledge that man must rely on, both to understand the world around them and their God.

In this way God becomes imperfect and "evil" becomes subjective. And the value of each philosophy can be measured by the results they obtain, in terms of pleasure and pain, reward and misery - so "good" and "bad" still carry some legitimate weight.

If there is a God (which I can tell you emphatically that there is) this is the God that MUST exist! It may not be the ideal feel-good creator we were taught about in Sunday School, but it is God none the less.

And because it is imperfect, we have even more of an obligation to understand it.

Emphatically? WOW?What is it's purpose?

It has an identical purpose to all intelligent life: to establish positive, artificial meaning for itself. I believe that God has the heart and mind of an existentialist.

It exist, and it wants to create an extraordinary, life-affirming world.

What CAN it do? Do you mean world as in planet?

I mean "world" as in planet. But this can also be extended to the greater universe. God wants to construct a meaningful, wonderful universe.

God is capable of a lot of things. For example, it communicates to me daily using little events (and some large) in my life; God also chats with me through divine coincidences.

At 12/18/2013 2:40:08 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:Dr. Craig says that perhaps only in a world with this much suffering, could the most people come to a loving relationship with God and know him. However, in the same breath, he concedes that the suffering in the world is the biggest obstacle with regards to believing in God. However, isn"t belief in God a necessary condition to know him? If all the suffering in the world is the #1 reason people don"t believe in God (and thus, don"t know God), then how can a world with this much suffering entail the most people know God?!That makes no sense to me. Dr. Craig admits that all the suffering in the world is the #1 reason people don"t even believe God exists (all the people that don"t believe in him, cannot know him), yet, says that perhaps only in a world with this much suffering can people come to know him?

Well it means that because of the suffering we have trouble coming to believe in him, however if we do come to believe in him then only in a world of suffering like this one can we come to properly know him.

We cannot know him if we don't believe in him. Thus, if suffering is the #1 reason why people don't believe in him, then a world with less suffering would mean more people believe in him. Thus, more people would know him.

No because in a world with less suffering no one would know him as without all the suffering you cannot properly know him.

Why is suffering necessary to properly know him? Wouldn't an all loving God make it so we could know him without horrible suffering? He is omnipotent after all; he can do anything logically possible.

So in a world with less suffering more people would believe in him but no one would know him.

That still doesn't make much sense.

Because the fact he is god is sort of irrelevant for getting to know him. Just like anyone else, if you want to properly get to know god you have to know him through the good times and the bad. So while you may get a fairly good impression of him and get to know him a little bit during good times, you can't completely know him until you've known him through bad times as well.

At 12/18/2013 2:40:08 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:Dr. Craig says that perhaps only in a world with this much suffering, could the most people come to a loving relationship with God and know him. However, in the same breath, he concedes that the suffering in the world is the biggest obstacle with regards to believing in God. However, isn"t belief in God a necessary condition to know him? If all the suffering in the world is the #1 reason people don"t believe in God (and thus, don"t know God), then how can a world with this much suffering entail the most people know God?!That makes no sense to me. Dr. Craig admits that all the suffering in the world is the #1 reason people don"t even believe God exists (all the people that don"t believe in him, cannot know him), yet, says that perhaps only in a world with this much suffering can people come to know him?

Insightful reflection, rationalthinker.

Obviously suffering presents a problem to the perception of an omni-benevolent God, which most people through no fault of their own find attractive. There are ways around this issue, like the one I advocate, where God is not perfect and God cannot do everything. In such a universe man has to discover the limits of God and discover the unavoidable consequences of human actions.

Humans become explorers of right and wrong, of creation and destruction, and ultimately memory and written accounts of of history and historical events serve as encyclopedias of knowledge that man must rely on, both to understand the world around them and their God.

In this way God becomes imperfect and "evil" becomes subjective. And the value of each philosophy can be measured by the results they obtain, in terms of pleasure and pain, reward and misery - so "good" and "bad" still carry some legitimate weight.

If there is a God (which I can tell you emphatically that there is) this is the God that MUST exist! It may not be the ideal feel-good creator we were taught about in Sunday School, but it is God none the less.

And because it is imperfect, we have even more of an obligation to understand it.

Emphatically? WOW?What is it's purpose?

It has an identical purpose to all intelligent life: to establish positive, artificial meaning for itself. I believe that God has the heart and mind of an existentialist.

It exist, and it wants to create an extraordinary, life-affirming world.

What CAN it do? Do you mean world as in planet?

I mean "world" as in planet. But this can also be extended to the greater universe. God wants to construct a meaningful, wonderful universe.

God is capable of a lot of things. For example, it communicates to me daily using little events (and some large) in my life; God also chats with me through divine coincidences.

At 12/18/2013 2:40:08 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:Dr. Craig says that perhaps only in a world with this much suffering, could the most people come to a loving relationship with God and know him. However, in the same breath, he concedes that the suffering in the world is the biggest obstacle with regards to believing in God. However, isn"t belief in God a necessary condition to know him? If all the suffering in the world is the #1 reason people don"t believe in God (and thus, don"t know God), then how can a world with this much suffering entail the most people know God?!That makes no sense to me. Dr. Craig admits that all the suffering in the world is the #1 reason people don"t even believe God exists (all the people that don"t believe in him, cannot know him), yet, says that perhaps only in a world with this much suffering can people come to know him?

Insightful reflection, rationalthinker.

Obviously suffering presents a problem to the perception of an omni-benevolent God, which most people through no fault of their own find attractive. There are ways around this issue, like the one I advocate, where God is not perfect and God cannot do everything. In such a universe man has to discover the limits of God and discover the unavoidable consequences of human actions.

Humans become explorers of right and wrong, of creation and destruction, and ultimately memory and written accounts of of history and historical events serve as encyclopedias of knowledge that man must rely on, both to understand the world around them and their God.

In this way God becomes imperfect and "evil" becomes subjective. And the value of each philosophy can be measured by the results they obtain, in terms of pleasure and pain, reward and misery - so "good" and "bad" still carry some legitimate weight.

If there is a God (which I can tell you emphatically that there is) this is the God that MUST exist! It may not be the ideal feel-good creator we were taught about in Sunday School, but it is God none the less.

And because it is imperfect, we have even more of an obligation to understand it.

Emphatically? WOW?What is it's purpose?

It has an identical purpose to all intelligent life: to establish positive, artificial meaning for itself. I believe that God has the heart and mind of an existentialist.

It exist, and it wants to create an extraordinary, life-affirming world.

What CAN it do? Do you mean world as in planet?

I mean "world" as in planet. But this can also be extended to the greater universe. God wants to construct a meaningful, wonderful universe.

God is capable of a lot of things. For example, it communicates to me daily using little events (and some large) in my life; God also chats with me through divine coincidences.

Just like anyone else, if you want to properly get to know god you have to know him through the good times and the bad. So while you may get a fairly good impression of him and get to know him a little bit during good times, you can't completely know him until you've known him through bad times as well.

Just like anyone else, if you want to properly get to know god you have to know him through the good times and the bad. So while you may get a fairly good impression of him and get to know him a little bit during good times, you can't completely know him until you've known him through bad times as well.