Sam Harris is a controversial figure in atheism precisely because of his extreme opinions on Islam in general - and indeed, TFA is hardly atypical of the pushback against him.

I've often personally felt that there are plenty of atheists who have a sense of superiority to theists that they don't really deserve. The only difference between an atheist and a theist is that the former believes in one less thing without adequate evidence - and they might not even disbelieve based on the lack of evidence!

/you think this is bad, you should see how we argue amongst ourselves about feminism

log_jammin:lumiere: I'm curious to know what makes people think the vagina is feared and repulsed in Islam.

because they are full of sand. duh.

This.And they have a tradition of marrying very young, so they can housebreak it early. They see the wild vaginae of North America rampaging the land like the mighty buffalo, proud, strong and unbroken, and it strikes terror into their hearts. They prefer domesticated, docile vaginae. That something about sewing it up, I think that was muslims, or maybe the Japanese, I get them all mixed up. It was some foreign guys who sound like they're mumbling and swearing furiously at the same time.

OK, I've just spent the last 20 minutes reading all of the articles and such he links to, and as far as I can tell, his problem isn't that all atheists are Islamophobes, it's that one atheist (Sam Harris) has said some inflammatory stuff about Islam that was taken out of context by someone else to make it sound like he was bigoted.

Big. Farking. Deal. Even if he was a bigot, why the hell would one bigoted atheist somehow mean the whole movement had a problem with Islam? Is Sam Harris the atheist pope now?

Not reading the article, because I'm only gonna get irked. Not all religions are equal, and like other atheists have mentioned (and I agree with) I largely don't give a shiat what you believe until it starts intruding on others. Sam Harris has gone on about this at length. A Jain's belief system really isn't impactful on you or me, and we've nothing to fear from them based solely on their religious beliefs. (An individual human who also happens to be a Jain might be a real bastard, but we're talking about their beliefs).

I was raised Catholic, lots of bad about that faith. I don't harbor any personal animosity (my experiences were largely very positive) but I left 'cause I didn't believe. Worst that happened was the reaction of some in my family. My old religion isn't doing squat about me leaving. If I wrote to the parish I was baptized in and demanded they pull me from the rolls...the worst they'd do is be snotty about it.

I'm an apostate, technically. And in Islam, the punishment for such is death. And this is the legal law in more than one Islamic country. And yes, you can argue (correctly) that not all muslims believe this. And yet, not all Catholics believe in being against birth control. Or being against abortion. Yet, their stance doesn't reflect what their religion teaches and preaches.

Are there atheist bigots? Well duh. Sure. There's bigots everywhere really. But the majority of atheists who have a biiiig farking issue with Islam specifically do so because it is worse than most other faiths in numerous ways. I've only listed one.

And if you don't think some are worse than others, engage in a little thought experiment for me. Imagine various religions, and imagine YOU are a member of the group they hate most. What do you have to fear from them? If you're in certain parts of Africa, you'd have to fear a nasty strain of Christianity who literally kills people they deem witches...but you'd have a lot more places to fear if we swap in Islam.

And duh of course there are good Muslims, I've known a few. :) But I don't know if they'd be considered a good muslim by other muslims or the tenants of their faith.

But I think all the concepts of god and the divine I've seen are pretty weaksauce.

I find the most recent SMBC to be relevant here. Most atheists I know are like me (also an atheist). They believe what they believe and they don't give a fark about what other people believe. And I know plenty of Christians who are like that. And I also know quite a few pagans/wiccans like that. A taoist, too. For the vast majority of the population, faith is personal and we don't need to scrutinize the faith of others. But then...

lacydog:I find the most recent SMBC to be relevant here. Most atheists I know are like me (also an atheist). They believe what they believe and they don't give a fark about what other people believe. And I know plenty of Christians who are like that. And I also know quite a few pagans/wiccans like that. A taoist, too. For the vast majority of the population, faith is personal and we don't need to scrutinize the faith of others. But then...

Hypersensitivity in the atheist community is nothing new. PZ Myers' entire blog and the "Skepchick" writers run on it.

I agree that Harris gets a little too extreme sometimes in his remarks about Islam, but it's not wrong to point out that their fundentalists are magnitudes worse that any Christian or Buddhist extremist (whose most radical acts have traditionally been setting themselves on fire.)

FTA: " Like a lot of atheists, I read a bunch of books about atheism and the shortcomings of religion and smirked at the inconsistencies contained in the Bible and Christianity's other texts." [The books arguing against Christianity were] "stuff written by men-almost always men, almost always white men, not that that matters."

Wait, whatnow? Maybe that's because you're white. If you were an atheist born in Cairo or Calcutta or Peking your statement would probably not hold true.

Also: A person that thinks religions are goofy being outraged that someone else who thinks religions that are especially repressive and violent are especially goofy is FARKING STUPID.

Why is it that atheists often sound like pretentious douchebags? Is that just their cross to bear?

Lady Indica:I'm an apostate, technically. And in Islam, the punishment for such is death. And this is the legal law in more than one Islamic country. And yes, you can argue (correctly) that not all muslims believe this. And yet, not all Catholics believe in being against birth control. Or being against abortion. Yet, their stance doesn't reflect what their religion teaches and preaches.

Are there atheist bigots? Well duh. Sure. There's bigots everywhere really. But the majority of atheists who have a biiiig farking issue with Islam specifically do so because it is worse than most other faiths in numerous ways. I've only listed one.

That's probably a bit too broad of a brush, though. And I think the point of the article is that these sorts of characterizations probably do more to exacerbate the problem than to help it. When Dawkins/Hitchens write these things about Islam, they serve to inflame those in the Islamic community who believe that the West is out to get them, and provides them "proof" of that conspiracy. That's not to say that we should hold no judgement about practices of other people, but the arguments by bigoted atheists are sloppily applying things that happen in one country or in one sect to attack the entire religion. Which makes sense if your goal is to bring down organized religion. But if you consider yourself a "live and let live" type of atheist, then you probably would do best to avoid those sorts of arguments.

If you read about a terrible practice coming from a specific part of the world, you're justified in taking a stance against that practice. You can say "the Taliban are a bunch of jackasses, and we shouldn't be allowing them any sort of power", and that's not bigoted in the slightest. It is a stretch to say that Islam is the root of all of it, and therefor should be removed. If you want to argue that because you think all religion is bad, then that's your prerogative. But if you want to preach tolerance and acceptance and all that jazz... be careful about painting everyone with the same brush because they all fall under a similar-looking umbrella.

Lusiphur:Can you be considered an "islamaphobe" if you simply hate religion? Wouldn't that just be a religiophobe?

His entire point was that the 'new atheists' specifically single out Islam as an order of magnitude worse than the 'run of the mill evil' perpetrated by religion in general. So yes, it is possible to have an irrational fear for a specific subset belonging to a group that you decry, ostensibly for rational reasons. You can hate "bugs," because in your experience they are pests and in rare instances carry disease and are generally irritating. At the same time, you can be an arachnophobe. This doesn't make you a "bugophobe."

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As far as defining the "good", society itself can do that. It can do it a lot better than the otherwise immutable rules handed down from a divine source. You don't need a threat of everlasting hell to force a kid to do his chores (or not kill people). Secular aesops (for example, Dr Seuss) can teach morality without ever deliberately invoking supreme beings (though I'm sure arguments would be made that they contain religious imagery, because people tend to look for it even where it is not intended). Likewise, as far as adults are concerned, punishment by human law would serve just as well as hell.

That is, of course, provided that the concept of an everlasting and a "true religion" can be purged from the public belief. Which is not likely to happen. You cannot destroy religion. If it were possible, it is likely that the concept of a religious belief would never have developed. We create answers for things we cannot see or understand - it's how we survived. The best you can hope for is to disconnect the religious belief from the secular, physical life. I don't care what you believe as long as you're not trying to influence the lives of others based on irrational arguments. Force daily prayer because {religion} is True and God would be offended otherwise? Well, no. Force daily prayer because it improves humility and thus social bonds? In that case, if you have evidence of such a response, I'll consider it on those merits. (Take note that this is just an example.)

lacydog:Lady Indica: I'm an apostate, technically. And in Islam, the punishment for such is death. And this is the legal law in more than one Islamic country. And yes, you can argue (correctly) that not all muslims believe this. And yet, not all Catholics believe in being against birth control. Or being against abortion. Yet, their stance doesn't reflect what their religion teaches and preaches.

Are there atheist bigots? Well duh. Sure. There's bigots everywhere really. But the majority of atheists who have a biiiig farking issue with Islam specifically do so because it is worse than most other faiths in numerous ways. I've only listed one.

That's probably a bit too broad of a brush, though. And I think the point of the article is that these sorts of characterizations probably do more to exacerbate the problem than to help it. When Dawkins/Hitchens write these things about Islam, they serve to inflame those in the Islamic community who believe that the West is out to get them, and provides them "proof" of that conspiracy. That's not to say that we should hold no judgement about practices of other people, but the arguments by bigoted atheists are sloppily applying things that happen in one country or in one sect to attack the entire religion. Which makes sense if your goal is to bring down organized religion. But if you consider yourself a "live and let live" type of atheist, then you probably would do best to avoid those sorts of arguments.

If you read about a terrible practice coming from a specific part of the world, you're justified in taking a stance against that practice. You can say "the Taliban are a bunch of jackasses, and we shouldn't be allowing them any sort of power", and that's not bigoted in the slightest. It is a stretch to say that Islam is the root of all of it, and therefor should be removed. If you want to argue that because you think all religion is bad, then that's your prerogative. But if you want to preach tolerance and acceptance and all that jazz... be careful about painting everyone with the same brush because they all fall under a similar-looking umbrella.

Ask any Muslim one direct question. Does Islam require you to convert, subjugate or kill non-believers? All religions will legislate their beliefs if they have the power.