LOL! I wonder when Jardin will ask, "Hey do Loroi have... umm... anyone aheh... unattractive? Or is prenatal genetic alteration common among the Loroi? What I mean is... among humans we vary wildly in appearance and all the Loroi I have encountered on this ship... well all of them ... I mean you seem to be ...well perfect examples of your race... all very attractive! Like no scars or even anyone of just plain appearance... you would all seem 'beautiful' by human standards! Is that the norm for your race? Among humans we have many who are indeed what we would consider attractive but we also have plain and indeed homely examples of our race. The physical perfection of each and every member of your crew would seem to point to perhaps some form of genetic manipulation...?"

It is at least what I have noticed... I think its a valid question considering the various appearances of the crew of the Belleron {sp}!

And I think you're taking it to extremes. First of all, there are many Loroi on the ship that we have seen who are not exactly supernally attractive (whether or not this is by Arioch's design, or just because minor characters didn't necessitate the time to make them attractive remains to be seen). Also remember that all the Loroi on this ship are part of a warrior caste of some form or another, and thus presumably keep themselves in fairly good physical shape.

True. I can see your point. It may be a cultural thing as well... meaning the Loroi seem to put some emphasis upon appearance and flow of form. Perhaps they try to make all things they manufacture including weapons and warships, even themselves to be as artistic and beautiful in form as possible?

Last edited by CptWinters on Tue Mar 22, 2011 1:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:30 pm

NOMAD

Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:34 pmPosts: 455

Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

Amen capt amen

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Mon Mar 21, 2011 10:53 pm

Arioch

Site Admin

Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:19 pmPosts: 2948Location: San Jose, CA

Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

The first issue of course is that of the artist. In a comic, I think characters should be visually appealing. This rule applies equally to the humans, Loroi, their allies and even the Umiak. I can't describe how pleased I was when my sister (also an artist) expressed to me that she thought Mozin was very handsome. I think my ability to draw characters more consistently over the last 8+ years since the start of the comic is part of the perceived "prettiness" factor, but there are a few others I can think of:

A) The Loroi we see are members of the military caste, which means they are in top physical condition. I think it's hard to point out "ugly" specimens in a cadre of young, peak-condition individuals in any population.

B) The Loroi have natural longevity and do not age visibly until shortly before total biological breakdown. Older individuals (such as Stillstorm or Greywind) show some external signs of aging, but they are nothing like the decay that we humans accept as normal.

C) It is clear, even to the Loroi, that they are not a "normally" evolved species. The Loroi believe that they are direct descendants of the ancient Soia. The Barsam teachings hold that the Loroi (like all Soia-Liron species) are merely genetically-engineered creations of the Soia. In either case, the Loroi are not by any means "normal" in our terms.

Hmmmm! Obviously I have missed some part of the greater meta-plot... or I have not read it in some time... 'The Soia'? Interesting some form of precursor race or space gods? That leads me to more closely understand the Barsam comments on the presentation of Ensign Jardin on the bridge of the Tempest!

I wonder how Humaniti fits into this Steller-Genetic history as there seems to be some sort of common genetic history or similarity between Humaniti and the Loroi? Perhaps this Soia visited Earth at some point in the distant misty march of Eons past?

The Soia-imperium build genetically engineered sex-toys (Loroi), which has sanzai ability for swarm control or mindupdate patches.When loroi get sanzai awareness by memevirus, accident or purpose, they went berserk and Soia imperium collapsed. Rest is history.

Ps: Tell also the high female to male ratio.

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Tue Mar 22, 2011 1:56 am

Mikk

Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2011 2:02 amPosts: 82Location: Online/offline

Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

In reply to bunnyboy: -.-

EDIT: It's great to see Outsider making some progress again

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Visually appealing characters is an interesting subject. I happen to like the character designs in outsider because they are reasonably attractive, but there are plenty of comics out there with characters that have such over idealized proportions that they become a little difficult to view... at least for me anyway. I'm sure some of you have heard the argument about how those kinds of idealizations can give people self-image issues, but the Loroi don't look like they're going to snap in half at the waist, nor could you balance a drink on top of their rear ends in the spot where a normal person's spine should be.

As I recall, the top factors in human attractiveness are:• Symmetry• Familiarity (associated with associations)• Healthiness

Symmetry is pretty much universal. Familiarity depends on what people are used to and who they knew growing up, but like all systems with a bell curve, tends to gravitate towards the mean. Healthiness is the one that can create the greatest differences in beauty standards, and is probably the most associated with social systems. People who are heavier are generally considered to be unhealthy, lacking in self-control and discipline; however, there was a time when that was an attractive sign of wealth and success. There are some more ubiquitous responses to health in regards to blemishes though, but they can sometimes be trumped by familiarity.

But as I said, the characters in Outsider are reasonably attractive, symmetrical, they look healthy, and they don't all look like the same ideal face or figure.

On the other hand, I have seen some artists do a very good job of stylizing generally unattractive characters in such a way that they are still visually appealing to look at, so I don't think anyone should hesitate to put unattractive people in their comics/animations/etc. at least if the story could be enhanced by it. Of course, as Arioch said, in Outsider we're dealing with the elite of both races who aren't liable to be out of shape.

((Personally, I found Shoe Girl and Arclight to be particularly fetching, though other characters have show a wider appeal.))

Tue Mar 22, 2011 11:56 am

dex drako

Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:37 amPosts: 63

Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

sunphoenix wrote:

Hmmmm! Obviously I have missed some part of the greater meta-plot... or I have not read it in some time... 'The Soia'? Interesting some form of precursor race or space gods? That leads me to more closely understand the Barsam comments on the presentation of Ensign Jardin on the bridge of the Tempest!

I wonder how Humaniti fits into this Steller-Genetic history as there seems to be some sort of common genetic history or similarity between Humaniti and the Loroi? Perhaps this Soia visited Earth at some point in the distant misty march of Eons past?

Precursor race for sure.

They is likely to be some Soia handiwork in the human genome but there is no common genetic history between humans and loroi. in fact Humans have completely differrent bio chemistry then the loroi. Nether are we part of the soia because the Soia Cataclysm happened 75,000 years before humans even evolved (by the time line in the insider) and nothing changed in human history so we still evolved on earth.

So the Soia messed with our ancestors but the only reason humans look like Loroi is because the Soia liked that look for some reason.

Just like the Barsam and the Nibiren.

Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:11 pm

discord

Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:44 amPosts: 614Location: Umeå, Sweden

Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

dex: not certain, the loroi are with 90% certainty based on humans and humans seem to have a strong affinity for this telepathy trick, even if it is mostly defensive in nature(at least in alex), so more than just the looks have been taken from humans...and 275 thousand years ago was still 225 thousand years AFTER the rise of archaic homo sapiens, that is close enough visual resemblance that it is likely that if you cloth one of them, he(or she) could likely walk downtown without making much fuss visually, BEHAVIOR is a entirely different matter though.

basically loroi are a enhanced copy of humans using a different biochemistry.

dex: not certain, the loroi are with 90% certainty based on humans and humans seem to have a strong affinity for this telepathy trick, even if it is mostly defensive in nature(at least in alex), so more than just the looks have been taken from humans...and 275 thousand years ago was still 225 thousand years AFTER the rise of archaic homo sapiens, that is close enough visual resemblance that it is likely that if you cloth one of them, he(or she) could likely walk downtown without making much fuss visually, BEHAVIOR is a entirely different matter though.

basically loroi are a enhanced copy of humans using a different biochemistry.

I find it unlikely that is the writers trick Arioch is using in this story.

First the idea of “copying humans using a different biochemistry” makes no sense.

Nothing learned from human Biochemistry would translate over to loroi biochemistry in anyway. Which means the Soia started from scratch to loosely copy a look because the archaic homo sapiens at alive at that time were short, stocky with sloping foreheads. Sure they look close to human but are a far cry from the athletic and human looking Loroi.

Besides the game Arioch is basing this story off used two ancient super races (Soia here) that liked to go around genetically engineer planets to force evolution of intelligent life hundred of thousands of years later. This way all of the playable characters were genetic experiments of those two ancient racers in one way or another over the millions of years of they existed.

This makes it unlikely to me that humans are “natural” specie either in this comic, in the end they’re all just left over Soia (or even one of the pre Soia races from the time line) play things.

Heck using the games logic humans really could be a weapon made to fight the loroi.

Just not by bugs but by some race who were planning to go against the Soia. I mean the sioa took power 500,000 years ago and the time line goes back far longer then that. Who knows for sure besides Arioch but This is why I don’t see the Loroi and Barsam being copies of humans and Nibiren. But instead Loroi/human and Barsam/ Nibiren body type are templates.

If they had more in common then just a body type and mantle power we don’t know if any per modern human species had. I would be more will to see it that way but this isn’t enough for me.

We’ll have to wait and see how this plays out.

Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:15 am

discord

Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:44 amPosts: 614Location: Umeå, Sweden

Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

dex: actually it does make sense, ALL the soia species share the same biochemistry, and now there are TWO of those species which just happens to have a doppelganger which just HAPPENS to have a long provable natural evolution using another biochemistry....once could be a coincidence, TWICE? the tinfoil hats just might have a point, we should look into this.

and homo erectus, homo ergaster and homo heidelbergensis where all about as tall as modern humans, Homo neanderthalensis where a bit shorter though, but not dwarfish, just stocky, again ANY of these with modern clothing and behavior would not seem very out of place at the local shopping mall, if you looked at it closer you might think 'damn that is one red neck bastard' or perhaps 'cool, eskimo' or something like that, but you would not be thinking 'not human!' or 'circus freak!', with a high probability anyway.and again, modern human developed somewhere between 250 thousand and 100 thousand years ago, which is WELL after the fall of the soia empire.

not saying the soia did not tinker with the human genome, quite possible...BUT unless the soia were around and space faring 1.5 million years before their rise to power they did not create the homo genus, and if there is one thing i have learned during my...heck, how long HAVE i been frequenting these boards really? it's that arioch builds his story around reality, makes things more realistic...usually. so in other words, humans are most likely a MOSTLY to all natural evolution, the loroi are most assuredly not.

so, even if it 'does not make sense' to you, it is what seems to be the case, evidence points that way.

Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:38 pm

fredgiblet

Moderator

Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:02 amPosts: 980

Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

sunphoenix wrote:

Obviously I have missed some part of the greater meta-plot...

A lot of it only comes out in the forums. I can offer this:http://well-of-souls.com/temp/fredgiblet_quotations.txt Which is WOEFULLY out of date (I made it over a year and a half ago). It's a collection of almost everything Arioch said in the forums from the time that DW purged the older posts until mid-2009, I made a feeble attempt to organize it that I gave up halfway through. I should probably update it, especially if there's no plans to migrate the old posts here.

Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:38 am

Arioch

Site Admin

Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:19 pmPosts: 2948Location: San Jose, CA

Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

fredgiblet wrote:

I should probably update it, especially if there's no plans to migrate the old posts here.

I don't know of any way to migrate old posts to the new forum; they are different systems, and even if there was some way to get a dump of the raw data, I doubt we could get Digital Webbing to provide it (the main reason for the new forums being that I couldn't get any kind of response from them).

So yes, it would be great to have a "master archive" from the old system, if that's something you'd be willing to spend time on.

WOW! fredgiblet, this is Awesome! Thanks! I'm reading furiously now! If you don't post it... I will at some point! The paragraph word-wrap...or lack there of is annoying. I copped it all and pasted to a Word file that I'm formatting right now... when I figure out how to post all 86 pages of Arial, 8pt font... I'll do something!

So yes, it would be great to have a "master archive" from the old system, if that's something you'd be willing to spend time on.

I'll start working on it this weekend (which for me is Tue-Thu), it may be hard to figure out exactly where I left off so some might slip through the cracks but I'll do my best.

Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:35 am

bunnyboy

Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2011 2:21 pmPosts: 485Location: Finland

Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

discord wrote:

Homo neanderthalensis where a bit shorter though, but not dwarfish, just stocky, again ANY of these with modern clothing and behavior would not seem very out of place at the local shopping mall, if you looked at it closer you might think 'damn that is one red neck bastard' or perhaps 'cool, eskimo' or something like that, but you would not be thinking 'not human!' or 'circus freak!', with a high probability anyway.

There is a viking wax museum in Dublin. Their statues are build after modern human. They build once a doll on to real bones of "healthy example of viking soldier". When they put it next on other statues he was so grotesque, that they didn't use it at all.

Result of different dietary, sicknesses, etc. But i have heard that people were more healthy before agriculture, so cavemen could look to us more "human-like" than people in medieval times.

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Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:20 pm

discord

Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:44 amPosts: 614Location: Umeå, Sweden

Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

bunny: or it could be that wax doll creators are not forensic anthropologists, or even some of those FBI facial reconstruction experts....