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I've been saying this very thing for many years now and I've been "blasted" for it on many occassions (not on this forum). Now, it's nice to have a little back-up from a big name in the industry...

"A raw novice's time would be better spent doing bodyweight training. You should be able to perform 100 push-ups, minimum, before even approaching a bench press. Add in pull-ups, lunges, and the other bodyweight staples to complete the program.

After a decent base of bodyweight strength has been developed, I'd next perform a sensible linear progression routine until respectable strength levels are achieved. 5/3/1 by my friend Jim Wendler and Starting Strength by Mark Rippetoe would fit the bill perfectly, with assistance work programmed to target any emerging weak points in size and strength.

However, after a certain threshold of development – say a 1.5 x bodyweight bench press, a 2 x bodyweight squat, and a 2.5 x bodyweight deadlift – it's time to step it up."

I also think a novice would do well to learn really good technique using just the bar and perhaps a few added pounds.
But yeah, for teens especially but all novices, patience and bodyweight exercises are good stuff.

I also think a novice would do well to learn really good technique using just the bar and perhaps a few added pounds.
But yeah, for teens especially but all novices, patience and bodyweight exercises are good stuff.

Totally agreed!

Learn to lift the bar first, and then when ready add in some squat racks.

However, after a certain threshold of development – say a 1.5 x bodyweight bench press, a 2 x bodyweight squat, and a 2.5 x bodyweight deadlift – it's time to step it up."[/I]

-Dave Tate

Could easily align this with the 3-4-5 standard. That's generally what I use as a focal point. If you can run progression to that point, and want more, it's generally time to "up" your game. Bodybuilding or powerlifting. I consider the process of getting to the 3-4-5 as "base building", or whatever you want to call it.

Good post OR. Made me think more about bodyweight usage during the first 8-12 weeks of programming. Though I have used them myself, I have not been advocating them for rank novices (yet).

So few people get to 3-4-5. So many guys over-complicating things before that point.

Just curious OR, what in particular did you get blasted over? I don't see anything massively controversial in what you're saying.

A lot of the guys on BtB's forum "over yonder" and my own forum "over yonder" think it's an absolute waste of time. They think that it's a much better use of time to jump under the bar right away and start pushing it. And as BtB pointed out, they always want to over-complicate things.

Just curious OR, what in particular did you get blasted over? I don't see anything massively controversial in what you're saying.

I don't want to speak for OR, but when I first took over another forum and brought similar ideas I was nearly crucified - no exaggeration. The mods wanted me run out of town, and were belligerent about it. They wanted me fired. Obviously I wasn't pushing bodyweight work, but I was pushing simplicity and foundation building.

This idea nearly cost me my job. People wanted my head, and I was called an idiot more times than I want to admit.

There are still many people in this niche who view a lot of this stuff as old fashioned, archaic, and infringing upon their split worldview.

Ask anyone from LTL to Babs. They know what hell I went through. I vented to them way too many times.

They think that it's a much better use of time to jump under the bar right away and start pushing it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BendtheBar

Obviously I wasn't pushing bodyweight work, but I was pushing simplicity and foundation building.

It really is a horrendous state of affairs when you're being crucified for just stating that people need to build a foundation and learn the lifts. For me a few factors are needed before I would be comfortable in someone pushing hard under the bar. A quick list off the top of my head:

1) Decent form on the big 5; Squats, Deads, Benches, Chins/Rows and Presses. Decent form is good enough to not get hurt. Obviously form is something which people always need to work on.

2) An understanding of diet and some clean and healthy eating habits. We don't need to split hairs over what's clean, I think most people know what's good food and what isn't.

3) A decent level of cardiovascular conditioning. I don't want anyone keeling over from over-exertion.

4) An appreciation of the role of rest and recuperation on training.

Essentially once that relatively short list is fulfilled I would feel comfortable in allowing someone to start pushing a little harder. They would still be doing 2-3 x full body sessions a week, using relatively high reps in the big 5. But I'd feel more comfortable in allowing weight increases.