Podcast summary

For episode five of Diversonomics co-hosts Roberto
Aberto and Sarah Willis interview Cristie Sutherland, the Director
of Student and Associate Programs in Gowling WLG's Calgary
office. They discuss the firm's recruitment process and why
it's not only important to hire the best candidates, but to put
diversity and inclusion at the forefront of these important
decisions. Cristie also shares her story of being an immigrant to
Canada and how that's shaped her path to following the law and
now hiring future lawyers for the firm.

Episode tip

"...above everything be
yourself. Life is too short to expend the kind of energy it would
take to try to be one person at work and another person outside of
work. Frankly, I think you are robbing yourself and you'd be
robbing [your workplace]." — Cristie Sutherland,
Director of Student and Associate Programs at Gowling WLG,
Calgary

Episode guest

Cristie Sutherland

Cristie Sutherland is the Director of Student and Associate
Programs for Gowling WLG's Calgary office. She overseas
recruitment and mentoring programsn for associates and students,
and is a chair of Gowling WLG's Diversity Council Recruitment
and Retention Working Group.

To learn more about Cristie, visit her
bio or connect with her on or LinkedIn.

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Podcast transcript

Roberto: Welcome to Diversonomics. The podcast
about all things diversity in the legal profession. I am your
co-host, Roberto Aburto, a lawyer at Gowling WLG in Ottawa,
Ontario, Canada, practicing in municipal law and litigation and one
of Gowling WLG's co-chairs of our National Diversity and
Inclusion Council.

Sarah: I'm your co-host, Sarah Willis also
of Gowling WLG practicing in commercial litigation, including
professional liability. I'm normally in Ottawa but I'm
currently practicing across the pond in our Birmingham, England
office. Today we are going to look at diversity and inclusion from
a student recruitment and an associate development perspective.

Roberto: We are lucky today. We have with us,
well she is in Calgary, Cristie Sutherland, who is the Director of
Student and Associate Programs for Gowling WLG's Calgary
office. Cristie oversees the recruitment, orientation, mentoring
and evaluation programs for associates and students in the Calgary
office and is well plugged in for the Firm in that regard.

Sarah: In addition to her internal role
Cristie also liaises with law students, law schools and law student
organizations and oversees the student recruitment process,
generally. Cristie also sits on the National Diversity and
Inclusion Council. She is the chair of the Recruitment and
Retention Working Group which I understand is a very big duty. We
are very excited to welcome Cristie to the show today and to have
the opportunity to speak with her.

Roberto: Great Cristie. Can you tell us a
little bit about your background. I know a lot of lawyers come from
different backgrounds and experiences. How did you end up in a
career, initially, practicing law?

Cristie: It was something I always had in
mind. I had always considered it. I enjoyed school. I meandered a
little bit. I got some funding to do grad work between undergrad
and ultimately going to law school and so I did that. Got a bit
disenchanted with the idea of continuing in more schooling at that
point. So I ended up working at a big customs brokerage trade
services logistics company as a market analyst for a few years.

It was about 3 years in that I decided that law was really what
I wanted to do and it was at the same time that I was moving out to
Calgary for family reasons so it all came together that I applied
and ended up in law school. What I initially thought what I wanted
to do from when I was fairly quite young eventually came to be some
years after the initial plan was hatched.

Roberto: I certainly didn't grow up dreaming
to be a municipal lawyer talking about zoning bylaws but funny how
life works out.

Roberto: But I do enjoy it so keep coming back
clients. When you started practicing what sort of law did you
practice?

Cristie: Employment and labour primarily was
sort of the mainstay of my 8 years in practice. I liked the
litigation aspects of the labour employment practice so I ended up
supplementing that practice with some commercial litigation as
well. But throughout my active practice employment and labour was
at least a substantial portion of my practice.

Roberto: Great. How did you end up in your
current role and why did you decide to pursue that?

Cristie: In part, it was a timing issue as
much as anything. I have moved now between our Calgary and Toronto
office a couple of times. I had spent almost 6 years in Toronto
after having first started articling in Calgary, working here for a
little bit, went East and after about 6 years the Firm asked me if
I would come back out West. I was really pleased with that
opportunity and wanted to come back out to Calgary.

But it was the perfect storm from a timing perspective. I had
come back on the cusp of partnership. I had been away for 6 years.
I had a 1 year old and a 3 year old and it felt in many ways like
starting over. I spent a year doing it; trying to rebuild the
practice, rebuild the profile in the market place, refamiliarizing
myself with the Alberta civil procedure rules and it all became a
bit overwhelming at that point and at it was at that juncture that
I thought perhaps opening an ice cream shop was going to be my next
career move.

But fortunately this opportunity came up. But it seemed like a
really good crossover from what I was doing. Having spent as much
time as I had in an employment law practice, a big component of
which is an HR advisory role, this job certainly seemed to be a
good fit for my skill set. I loved working in the Firm, I had lots
of great friends in the Calgary office and the opportunity to
continue on with the Firm doing something different that matched
sort of my background was an ideal opportunity. That's sort of
how I decided to make the transition.

Sarah: That's fantastic. At this point how
long have you been doing that role?

Sarah: Obviously you know the legal profession
has traditionally lagged behind other sectors in terms of diversity
and inclusion. Given that this is a diversity and inclusion podcast
and this is a perfect opportunity to talk about that, in what ways
do diversity and inclusion issues or considerations impact the work
you do in recruitment and student associate development?

Cristie: It's sort of always front of
mind. Particularly on the recruitment side. You want to make sure
that you are attracting diverse talent but it's not just about
going out and finding all of those bright capable people. We need
to do so much more to create an environment where they can
contribute meaning when they get here. There is no point in
bringing in people with fresh ideas and then directing them to do
things the way we always have. It is a real challenge in the legal
profession.

In many ways, we are resistant to change. That's something
that we are always focused on, on the recruitment side, is how do
we find people from different backgrounds, that have different
viewpoints, that can contribute in different ways and it's much
the same on the associate development side. We don't have a
formal work allocation system in the Calgary office and so in many
ways it is trying to make sure that the work gets spread around and
the opportunities go to people other than the "mini
me's", as I like to call them. In those ways it is sort of
always front of mind in terms of who gets invited to the table and
also how those opportunities get distributed.

Sarah: What type of specific initiatives or
programs have you been working on or are you thinking about
implementing in terms of associate development, because I do think
that it's an interesting issue. It's all well and good to
bring in and have a diverse group of people working at a firm but
in a situation where work is allocated informally and it is all
about relationship building, it's tough to break that down and
really ensure that everyone is participating in the firm.

Cristie: Right. Some of what we've been
doing is more on the recruitment side because I think getting a
more diverse group into the office in the first place is important.
We spent a lot of time over the past year just really focusing our
recruitment efforts on ensuring that we're attracting a more
diverse work force.

In terms of sort of the integration and what we are doing on the
inclusion side it is a lot of team building internally. It is a lot
of trying to figure out how to disrupt those sort of traditional
relationships where people's teams have been defined by the way
they have always done things. In many ways it is trying to make
sure that there is an education process around, who has what skill
set in our office, who has capacity to do work, who are we more
able to plug into a team and give an opportunity to that
wouldn't otherwise be front of mind. A lot of that is an
education process for us in this office. A lot of it is just
communication and getting practice groups to work together and
we've been really trying to put some emphasis on doing
that.

Sarah: I guess you are in a unique role in the
sense that in recruitment you're getting the opportunity to
interact with students and young lawyers who are really the future
of the legal profession and the future of the firm. Obviously they
will be at the forefront of any changes in the legal profession
moving forward. Do you see the legal profession changing and how do
you see it changing, if so?

Cristie: In some ways I think it is changing
quite quickly, in terms of the adoption of our use of technology,
big firms are becoming more globally focused, we are being
pressured all of the time to adopt alternative fee structures. We
are dealing with legal outsourcing issues. I think there are lots
of things that are pressuring law firms to do things differently.
In some ways, frankly, there is hardly any change at all. I think
there is a real tension between those two things going on in the
legal profession currently.

Sarah: Where do you see room for improvement?
Obviously, I'm sure that list is quite long, but for the legal
profession what are some key areas you think you can see room for
improvement in the near future?

Cristie: I think certainly we need to see more
women and minorities of every stripe represented in the firms and
even where we are seeing them represented I think there are earning
disparities that are hard to ignore. Just on those sort of big
items there is obviously clearly room for improvement.

I think one of the things that will help shift the D and I
needle is just how we manage milliennials in our work place,
frankly. I think we could learn a lot from looking at how the next
younger generation embraces technology, their working styles, how
often they like to work collaboratively, ways of wanting to adopt
flexible styles of working. I think all of those things will help
us. If we can adopt that, if we can actually incorporate the way
the millennials in our work place are sort of pushing the legal
profession to change a bit, I think that will have tremendous spill
over for the way we deal with diversity and inclusion issues. There
is certainly room for improvement but I am a bit optimistic that
this generation, more than anything, is going to help move the
needle on how we get caught up on the D and I side.

Roberto: How do you ensure an equitable and
inclusive recruitment process? What are the things we are doing to
try to make sure we are getting that right?

Cristie: We've made a real point of trying
to ensure that we've adopted competencies based selection
criteria in terms of how we review CV's when they come in. In
the way we approach our interviewing techniques. Are we asking
questions that sort of get to is this person capable of doing the
job and it's sort of the job at a stripped down level. We are
trying to eliminate this idea that is a preconceived notion of what
a lawyer should look like. If we can get down to what sort of tasks
and the types of traits and skills that somebody is who is
successful in the legal profession has, and then we try to use
those competencies and those skills as our base line to evaluate
whether we think somebody on paper has that skill set, regardless
of their cultural background or whether English is their first
language or if they're of a minority or gender or sexual
orientation or any of those things. We have tried very much more to
focus on those competencies based selection in hiring
techniques.

We've also tried to make our selection hiring committees
more diverse. It's no secret that untrained interviewers tend
to favour candidates who are most like themselves. One simple thing
that we have tried to adopt is in the way we've put together
recruitment committees in our office, we've tried to ensure
diversity. Diversity both in terms of ethnic and cultural and
language and gender composition but also just in terms of different
practice areas of the Firm and different ages and stages of
practice. The more we can get our interview teams and our selection
committees diverse. It's not a perfect solution. I think there
is a training component and we have done some of that as well but
that's at least a good starting point for trying to strip out
some of the unconscious biases that would normally make its way
into the recruitment process. We have consciously tried to do those
things in recent years and even more so in the past year.

Roberto: You're a chair of Gowling
WLG's Diversity Council Recruitment and Retention Working Group
which is a mouthful and also thank you, thank you, thank you, but
what interested you in taking on that role?

Cristie: Because I have worked both in the
Toronto and Calgary office I felt like I knew the issues that are
important to me. I came to Canada as an immigrant in 1986. I am
not, I think, what you would describe as a member of a visible
minority, but I am an immigrant that came from Guyana and came with
an accent and didn't have lawyers in my family and didn't
have a lot of financial resources when we came.

None of my immigration history visits any hardship on me these
days. Most people, frankly, are surprised that I'm not just
sort of a white Canadian woman. My own experience of coming to
Canada and having to fit in and realizing that culturally there
were some differences and having to make that transition is
something that has always caused me to think that it was difficult
enough for me who, frankly, could blend in on first blush, just
because I didn't look that materially different than everybody
else who I was interacting with. It's always led me to think
that it must have been much harder, and it must continue to be much
harder, for people who are physically or mentally, where there are
differences that are more apparent than mine would have been. So
it's been a personal interest of mine and then I thought just
given my familiarity with, look, I've been with Gowling WLG for
15 years now. I've worked in Toronto. I've worked in
Calgary. I know quite a few people in the organization. I've
worked on the legal side of the practice and I'm in a non-legal
role now. I thought I had enough reach just given that background.
I could potentially add value. So that's what attracted me.

Cristie: It was a busy year last year. Our
sort of first inaugural year going through a lot of the planning
and development of programs. We focused a lot on recruitment in our
first year. We tried to make sure that we, as much as possible,
looked at the way we brought lateral professionals and students and
staff into the Firm. Tried to make sure that we had a more obvious
overt commitment to diversity. That it was publicly known and
stated but that we also change some of our job descriptions, our
hiring criteria, our approach to recruitment. It was a full scale
overview of what we were doing in terms of how we bring people into
the organization. I can't say obviously that with a mandate of
that size that's it complete. It most certainly is a work in
progress but it was a good opportunity to step back, take stock of
what we were doing, measure all the places where we thought there
was room for improvement and start to take concrete steps towards
attracting a more diverse work place.

One of the things that we wanted to do sort of tending more on
the inclusion side was to develop a maternity and parental leave
tool kit for parents who take leaves of absence in our Firm. My own
experience was that it was a little difficult to transition both
leaving to go off on maternity leave and then returning and
resuming a practice. I thought there was a lot we could do to
improve that process, to make it more streamlined to get people
looking at their practices and trying to figure out both the
transition out, how we could do it smoothly. Then on the transition
back, how we would create opportunities.

It is geared primarily towards women because we anticipate that
it will be maternity leaves that are longer but certainly, if we
have men and others taking parental leaves and having even a
shorter interval being absent from the work place, if we could put
more structure around how we get everybody involved and working
together on their reentry we think people would be a lot happier, a
lot more successful and the hope is, ultimately, that we'll
have less attrition. That fewer people will decide that the prize
is not worth the fight trying to manage those issues of family and
career and that if we can put this step in place, to at least help
people coming back from a leave of absence, initially as I said,
maternity and parental leaves, but hopefully over time all leaves,
that we'll end up not having people grow frustrated that they
have missed opportunities because of their absence and ultimately
leave us.

Sarah: For those prospective students or young
associates who are eagerly listening to this podcast hoping to get
an inside scope, do you have any tips for prospective students or
associates?

Cristie: I think above everything be yourself.
Life is too short to expend the kind of energy it would take to try
to be one person at work and another person outside of work.
Frankly, I think you are robbing yourself and you'd be robbing
us. I know it's a bit difficult and anybody who is a member of
a visible minority or has identifiable characteristics that would
put them in a minority category, I think it is a bit harder for
them to sort of have the level of trust that I'm asking them to
have but I think that's a good starting point. Trust the law
firms, and I think our Firm in particular, is starting to get it
right. That we see room, and not just room, value in having people
other than straight able bodied white men in the profession. I
really do encourage people to come to work as being as much as
themselves as they can possibly be. My husband jokes that he is
amazed that I am continually employed because I say most everything
that occurs to me and that is the one of the things that I have
really, really valued about this organization is that I've
always felt like I could come to work and be myself. Frankly, I
think it would be a really difficult environment to be in where you
had to hide a part of who you were from an identity perspective, to
feel that you had room to be successful. That would be my
overarching bit of advice, is be yourself. There are lots of people
that can contribute meaningfully to this profession in different
ways. And as I said, trust that we are starting to get it right and
the opportunity won't be foreclosed to you on account of
it.

Sarah: That's very well put and I agree.
The Firm let us do this podcast so I think that tells you that you
are able to be yourself and say what's on your mind. Thanks so
much for being here with us today Cristie. This has been an episode
of Diversonomics. If you ever have any questions, comments or ideas
for topics and guests please, please, please look us up at
gowlingwlg.com and get in touch with us. Also make sure to check
the show notes for this episode at gowlingwlg.com/diversonomics5. Last, but not
least, make sure to subscribe on iTunes so you don't ever miss
an episode. While you are it leave us a review and let us know what
you think.

Roberto: You can also follow me on Twitter @robaburto.
Diversonomics was presented to you by Gowling WLG and produced by
Jessica Bowman with special assistance from Mark Josselyn. Go forth and grab a coffee with
someone you ordinarily wouldn't. We'll catch you again
soon.

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