Comparing pre-industrial environmental destruction with Industrial environmental destruction is like comparing the lamp with the sun...

If your car is approaching the cliff you don't continue moving forward.

Man has been gifted with common sense and foresight which he should have used to stop at agrarian stage.

The option of stopping and not moving forward is always there.

Industrialization was the biggest crime, the biggest act of killing, murder and terrorism on earth.

Solution happens automatically if you don't create the problem.....Millions of other species never caused large scale destruction of environment, So they never needed to find a solution to save environment.

You cannot save a person after killing him....You can only save him by not killing him.

You cannot save environment after it has been killed by Industrial Activity....You can only save it by not killing it with Industrial Activity.

Millions of other species have already been decimated by Industrial Activity.....If man doesn't mend his ways and stop Industrial Activity for production of thousands of consumer goods then he will get decimated/ wiped out within the next few years.

sushilydv wrote:

A pure non-industrial society is not possible now because Industrialization has increased world population to 7 billion.......World population increased from 1 billion in 1800 to 7 billion in just about 200 years after industrialization.......In the absence of industrialization world population would have been less than 2 billion today.

If we want to save the remaining environment we must minimize the things that are destroying environment.

At present we are destroying environment for Food, Clothing, Shelter plus Thousands of Industrial consumer goods and services.

We must eliminate the things that were added last to the list......which means Thousands of consumer goods and services, most of which have existed for only about 100 years out of Hundreds of Thousands of years of Total Human Existence on earth .........these have to be eliminated.

We are approaching Environmental Apocalypse.......The only way to save the remaining environment is by stopping Industrial Activity for production of consumer goods and services immediately........Industrial Activity must be primarily limited to food, clothing and shelter.......and even in these three fields production and consumption must be kept to the minimum..

If we want to save the remaining environment we must minimize the things that are destroying environment.

And what is the number one thing you want to minimize? The number of people. There isn't anyway we are going back to a primarily paleolithic condition. We know too much. Lower the population with the purpose of developing self-sufficient communities and you have the beginning of a sustainable society.

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Millions of other species never caused large scale destruction of environment,

They couldn't, we can. That makes the comparison of limited value.

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Man has been gifted with common sense and foresight which he should have used to stop at agrarian stage.

The surpluses of the agrarian stage afforded man the capital to build the modern industrial state. And of course the precursor of the city was the market place which brought together all the produce and manufacturing and tradesmen that made the agricultural system flourish. Even at the stone age stage you had slaves and classes like warriors and medicine men and Shaman. I understand the first mineral monopolies for a region involved a tribe occupying the whole area around a volcanic mountain, controlling the glass like obsidian that was the most desirable natural mineral for stone tool making.

It should be remembered that we are the only hominid that has survived among the many hominid species that once roamed this land. Our ability to utilize nature in a multiplicity of ways no doubt had something to do with that. Something as simple as leveraging the advantages of fossil fuel seems to have escalated our ability to exploit nature into a modern industrial state.

So now our abilities have introduced us to environmental sin so to speak. So you think we should recognize that sin and withdraw from it. Kind of "Thou shalt not commit urbanity." Of course you think the distinction between the urban and the rural is obvious. I don't think it is. Maybe you should start clarifying the distinctions.

My approach is clear to me. Keep lowering the population in tandem with building self sufficient communities. How those communities will be made up is their business as long as they are sustainable unto themselves.

I once had a site promoting that which I thought at the time would be sustainable and nice; Earthship Villages. Built and lived in by intelligent strong people, with some having enough capability to manufacture batteries, solar panels, generators, inverters, and other power equipment to use. Plus the ability to protect themselves from hostile outside groups.Growing their own food, recycling everything, keeping the population constant or near so. Growing in the Earthships, using aquaponics, raising rabbits, chickens, outside grain and woods, with pasture, orchards--- a regular utopia, connected to other villages by radio or satellite. The sum total of human knowledge with each village. Kind of a high tech agrarian society with bartering food, manufactured items, education, labor, and child care.That was before I found out about the probability of going worse than PETM. Then I thought of underground fortresses with GenIV nuclear grow lights, a good aquifer, and similar living arrangement except underground.The outside villages would eventually lose all their outside growing, unless they went nomadic toward the poles. Even then time would run out for them. As it would for those underground who would have no survivable surface for two hundred thousand years.So one hope is to reduce emissions 90% within a decade and hope as we live through momentum and the 400 year cool down, almost all after a rapid die-off period.Another hope is for a geologic incident which reduces population through economic meltdown or loss of a season of growing globally.Another possibility is limited nuclear war that takes out the 500 biggest cities. Some have thought a pandemic could also do it.Katla(South Icelandic volcano) is due, so is La Palma and the Cascadia Rip. As a geology guy for life, I would say they are more likely than the others in preventing the AETM ELE.Either way of the several, it won't be an easy ride for people or many other life forms on Earth. Like the calm before the storms of my grandchildren, if my son has one. But he knows what is ahead, too. If I would have not had excessive hope in 1987, he probably never would have been born. Now, I am sorry for what man has done to this biosphere, and I feel for the children of the future. Crying out over the annals of time, those who could have been.

_________________"With every decision, think seven generations ahead of the consequences of your actions" Ute rule of life.“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children”― Chief Seattle“Those Who Have the Privilege to Know Have the Duty to Act”…Albert Einstein

The recent Floods and Land Slides in Uttarakhand in India are more of an Industrial Disaster than a Natural Disaster.

This catastrophe is a consequence of World Bank funded Dam Industry.....Hundreds of Dams and Hydro Electric Projects are being constructed in the fragile mountain range.

This calamity is a consequence of unchecked activities of Construction Industry, Logging Industry, Mining Industry and Tourism Industry.

**Development is Destruction.....Development is Destruction.**

**Growth Rate** - **Economy Rate** - **GDP**....These are figures of Ecocide....These are figures of "Crimes against Nature"....These are figures of "Destruction of Ecosystems".....These are figures of "Insanity, Abnormality and Criminality".

This rural-urban business really needs to be refined. Modern agriculture destroys forests, depletes and pollutes water and is extremely high tech fossil fuel dependent. If you are going to be pushing your rural ideal you need to put some foundation under it. Negatives about urbanity simply aren't enough.

78 die in Rail Accident in Spain......Big Tragedy.... Newspaper and Television Headline.

21 Pilgrims die in bus Accident in Italy......Big Tragedy.... Newspaper and Television Headline.

23 school children die from Insecticide Poisoning in India ......Big Tragedy.... Newspaper and Television Headline...Billions of animals are killed in Industrial Slaughter Houses every day.....Not tragic enough to make a News Headline.

Millions of wild animals are killed by Industrial Activity in forests every day.....Not tragic enough to make a News Headline.

Millions of Baby Seals are clubbed to death every year.....Not tragic enough to make a News Headline.

Millions of Trees are killed by Industrial Activity every day.....Not tragic enough to make a News Headline.

Millions of acres of fertile soil are killed by cement, concrete and asphalt every day.....Not tragic enough to make a News Headline.

Millions of tonnes of Industrial Gases are killing the Air every day....Not tragic enough to make a News Headline.

Millions of tonnes of Liquid Industrial Waste is killing Rivers, Lakes and Oceans every day....Not tragic enough to make a News Headline.

Oceans have turned acidic and warmer, There are oxygen deprived dead zones in oceans....Not tragic enough to make a News Headline.

Industrial Fishing has decimated fish in the oceans....Not tragic enough to make a News Headline.

If you kill the entire planet with industrial activity it is Progress, Growth, Development...

After destroying nature's air conditioners - Forests and Glaciers with Industrial Activity, man is trying to cool himself with home air conditioners and car air conditioners...Industrial Society is a lunatic society which first made the weather extreme, irregular and unpredictable with Industrial Activity and is now trying to predict the weather using satellites and computer simulation..

When Nixon was President he had declared a war on Cancer and America predicted that cancer would be cured within six years.

Industrial Society curing Cancer is like Petrol extinguishing a Fire.

Industrial Society is the cause of Cancer.

Industrial Society has contaminated the planet with billions of tonnes of Industrial Carcinogens.

The entire planet is dying from chemical poisoning.....Millions of animal and plant species, Rivers, Oceans, Atmosphere, Under Ground Water, The Land/ Soil....The entire planet is dying from chemical poisoning.

Millions of people are dying from cancer and multiple organ failures caused by Industrial Chemicals.

Industrial Society has created 50,000 - 80,000 Industrial Chemicals.

And it hasn't produced a few kilograms of chemicals but billions of tonnes of Industrial Chemicals and Waste.

Industrial Society has produced billions of tonnes of Solid, Liquid and Gaseous Industrial Chemicals and Waste.

There are only three places on earth where all these industrial chemicals and waste can go - Air, Water and Soil........There is no fourth place on earth where Industrial Chemicals can go.

Liquid chemicals are thrown into Rivers, Lakes and Oceans.

Solid chemicals are thrown on land (and sometimes into water).

Gaseous chemicals are released into the atmosphere.

The entire planet has been poisoned by Industrial Chemicals.....Rivers, Oceans, Atmosphere, Under Ground Water, The Land/ Soil....The entire planet has been poisoned.

Traces of Industrial Chemicals can be found even in the Arctic Ice.

There is poison in the food we eat....There is poison in the water we drink....There is poison in the air we breathe.

An average person eats about 2 Kg of additives and preservatives through his food every year.

Billions of acres of agricultural land has been poisoned by millions of tonnes of pesticides, insecticides and fertilizers.

There are hundreds of industrial chemicals in the blood, bones and tissues of billions of people [and also animals, birds and fish] .

Millions of humans have died from chemical poisoning.

Billions of animals, birds and fish have died from chemical poisoning.

As long as Industrial Society exists this planet will remain poisoned.

Rising incidence of cancer can only be stopped if Industrial Activity is stopped...

All problems of Industrial Society are unsolvable because Industrialization itself is the cause of problems.....Exponential increase in environmental destruction, incidence of cancer, obesity and war/ violence.......Industrialization is the cause of all these problems.

It is important to understand why millions of people are trying to solve all these problems when they can never be solved.

Here is the answer - Billions of people who are not producing food in Industrial Society have to be kept engaged in some work or activity....People would go crazy without work....Therefore unnecessary, meaningless, futile and destructive jobs and professions are created by Industrial Society to keep the Urban Population occupied.

In Hunter_Gatherer Society the entire population was engaged in searching for food.....In Agrarian Society almost the entire population was engaged in producing food [hardly 1 - 2% of population was not producing food].

In Industrial Society 50% of world population is growing food for entire population.....The remaining 50% population is engaged in extra, destructive and unnecessary work....[In America only 5% of population is producing food, That is why America is the Mother of all unnecessary and destructive work in this world].

In China and India, unnecessary and destructive work and consumerism have risen exponentially with increase in urban population.

The population that does not produce food is engaged in Production and Marketing of thousands of consumer goods and services, Tourism Industry, Entertainment Industry, Sports Industry, Military Industrial Complex and All kinds of unnecessary research.

Millions of urban people in Industrial Society are doing unnecessary, meaningless and futile research in hundreds of fields.

Millions of urban people in Industrial Society are trying to save Environment which is not possible because Industrial Activity itself is the cause of large scale environmental destruction.

Millions of urban people in Industrial Society are trying to cure Obesity which is impossible because Obesity is a result of Industrialization.....A result of the switch over from physical work to mental work and easy availability of billions of tonnes of ready-made food.

Millions of urban people in Industrial Society are trying to cure Cancer which is not possible because Industrialization itself is the cause of cancer.....Industrial Activity has contaminated air, water and soil with billions of tonnes of solid, liquid and gaseous carcinogens.

Millions of urban people in Industrial Society are working with Peace Organizations trying to make the world peaceful.....This is an impossibility because Military Industrial Complex is promoting war and violence by producing and selling billions of tonnes of weapons all over the world...

Hundreds of professions and millions of jobs have been created in the name of solving the problems of Industrial Society.

The solutions will of course never come because Industrialization itself is the cause of problems.

Millions of people are happy because they are getting jobs and salaries......Governments are happy because they can claim they are doing all they can to solve global problems.

Meanwhile the problems continue getting bigger and bigger day by day, moment by moment.

Problems of Industrial Society can go away only when Industrial Society goes away...

Cities are the Graveyards of Nature, Urban Dwellers the Executioners.

Urban Jobs are unnecessary, destructive and worthless.

Urban Society has created hundreds of unnecessary, destructive and worthless professions to keep itself occupied.

Urban Society has created millions of unnecessary, destructive and worthless jobs to keep itself occupied.

Urban Population has destroyed necessary things [Animals, trees, Air, Water and Land] for making unnecessary things [Consumer Goods and Services]

Progress, Growth, Development.

This is terminology for all unnecessary and destructive work being done by Urban Population.

Growth Rate - Economy Rate - GDP.

These are figures for all unnecessary and destructive work being done by Urban Population...

If Urban Society stops its supplies to Rural Society it will live forever.

If Rural Society stops its supplies to Urban Society it will die within a month.

That is the worth of Urban Jobs, Consumer Goods, Growth Rate, Economy Rate and GDP...

For millions of years on earth "Searching for Food" / "Producing Food" was the primary occupation for animal species, hunter_gatherer society and agrarian society.

Urban Industrial Society is the anomaly....It is producing thousands of consumer goods and services instead of food.

Industrialization was the biggest crime on earth....The biggest act of killing, murder and terrorism on earth.

Agrarian Society was the limit for man on this planet.

Millions of other species only get food from earth.

The maximum that man can/ should get is food, clothing and shelter...

We are approaching Environmental Apocalypse.......The only way to save the remaining environment is by stopping Industrial Activity for production of consumer goods and services immediately........Industrial Activity must be primarily limited to food, clothing and shelter.......and even in these three fields production and consumption must be kept to the minimum.

This planet can only sustain "Food Searching" or "Food Producing" societies....For millions of years "searching for food"/ "producing food" was the primary occupation on earth.

The whole society needs to be reorganized...Urban Dwellers have to be relocated in Rural Areas....Urban Dwellers have to either transform into full time food producers or they have to stop working in order to save the remaining environment from destructive Urban Work....They can be given food for free in order to save the remaining environment from destructive Urban Work...

The area around chernobyl will remain poisoned with radioactivity for thousands of years.

The wind, underground water and rain water are already spreading radioactivity in the nearby regions.

The concrete and other shielding material that was used to cover up the plant is going to disintegrate in a few decades, which will lead to faster spread of radiation.

The animal and plant life in the vicinity cannot be healthy because of radiation.

People who went there to make the film could only see the living animals.....There is no way they could have seen the hundreds of thousands of animals that became sick and died in that region due to radiation poisoning in the last three decades.

"Toxic revival" is really meaningless bs. If a species survives under challenging conditions then it is adapting. If nature makes a comeback under highly irradiated conditions then I would say that is worth celebrating. It appears to me the robustness of the comeback shows humans were more toxic to surrounding wildlife than radiation, even severe radiation. I think human caused radiation increase is a pipsqueak problem compared to human generated fossil fuel burning. According to the radiation experts the known and expected deaths due to Chernobyl are quite low, somewhere between 4000-9000 from what I've read. I'd guess that is less than a day in the world of fossil fuel pollution. From what I have also read about Northern China, pollution from coal particularly has knocked 5 years off their life expectancy.

If you don't make distinctions in human damage caused then I have to conclude that you are locked into an ideological cul-de-sac. Some things we do are worse than others. That's why I think the Germans are stupid to engage in an accelerated phase out of their nuclear power plants because of Fukushima. Primarily they are being replaced by coal. Really dumb.

Last edited by Dingo on Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

.Promoters of Nuclear Energy are the biggest terrorists.......millions of times bigger terrorists than Taliban or Al Qaeda.

America and other western countries are trying to find out ways to secure Nuclear Material and prevent it from falling into the hands of terrorists.

What a Joke!

The "Bigger Terrorists" are trying to prevent Nuclear Material from falling into the hands of "Smaller Terrorists".

Nuclear Material has always been in the hands of terrorists......People who produced nuclear material,,, people who transported it all over the world,,, people who promoted its use in Power Plants, Industrial Activity and Weapons are the biggest terrorists on earth......Nuclear Material has been in the hands of terrorists ever since it was created.

It was not Taliban or Al Qaeda that produced thousands of tonnes of Nuclear Material and Waste that has poisoned the entire planet with radioactivity for thousands of years.....It was Nuclear Scientists and Nuclear Industry.

The Mega Disasters of Chernobyl and Fukushima were not caused by Taliban or Al Qaeda.......They were caused by promoters of Nuclear Energy.

Even if Taliban and Al Qaeda try their level best they will not be able to create Mega Disasters as big as Chernobyl or Fukushima.

And if they do manage to succeed the blame will lie more on people who created Nuclear Material and brought it into existence.

In Industrial Society all Political Parties, all Governments become Eco-Killers, Eco-Murderers and Eco-Terrorists.

All Political Parties in India and elsewhere in the world are promoting Growth Rate, Economy Rate & GDP which requires setting up of more and more Power Plants.....more and more Nuclear Power Plants.....thereby destroying ecosystems in the name of Progress, Growth and Development.

Political Parties might oppose some Industrial Projects when they are in opposition but when they come to power they approve/ promote all Industrial Projects.

"Growth Rate" - "Economy Rate" - "GDP"These are figures of "Ecocide".These are figures of "Crimes against Nature".These are figures of "Destruction of Ecosystems".These are figures of "Insanity, Abnormality and Criminality".

There are thousands of nuclear professionals working with Nuclear Industry.......If nuclear projects are stopped they will become jobless/ unemployed........so they will always give approval to nuclear projects.......always.

The land, the water, the air....... The entire planet has been poisoned with radiation.

Nuclear material is the most dangerous material - it should not even be created - it should not even be brought into existence.

Everyone comes to know about Aeroplane Accidents, Car Accidents and Train Accidents .........because they are visible.

Nuclear Accidents are different...... people only come to know about Nuclear Accidents which happen with big explosions. People do not come to know about silent Nuclear/ Radiation Leakages because they are invisible and can only be known to people who have access to Radiation Monitoring Equipment. These leakages don't get reported in the media because people who run nuclear facilities are not going to report themselves - they are not going to report their own crimes.

Thousands of accidents involving nuclear/ radiation leakages are happening every day but they are never reported. Soil, Water and Air are getting contaminated with nuclear radiation at thousands of places around the world every day.

People who produce nuclear material - people who transport it all over the world - people who promote its use in Power Plants and Industrial Activity are the biggest criminals - biggest killers, murderers and terrorists on earth.

The Government is accusing Activists of using Foreign Funds for anti-nuclear Protests and Agitation.

If the Government can take Billions of Dollars of Foreign Aid to destroy Ecosystems in the name of Progress, Growth & Development then why can't NGO's and Activists take Foreign Aid / Assistance to Save the Ecosystems????

Why should Fishing Communities and Villages be destroyed for the Nuclear Plants of Urban Dwellers????

There are many cities along the coast of India....Why don't the promoters of Nuclear Energy raze down a few thousand urban buildings in cities to set up Nuclear Power Plants????

If Urban Dwellers want land for setting up Manufacturing Industry, Energy Generation Industry and "Special Economic Zones" then why don't the lunatics demolish a few million Urban Buildings to get the land????......We shall then see how many new Industrial Projects come up in this world.

Frankly sushi I enjoy the robustness of your all out unibomber like attack(Verbally that is for any NSA folks that might be monitoring this place) on the modern industrial state but I still like dividing my poisons up into degrees of toxicity. With that in mind I'll take nuclear power over fossil fuel power any day. We evolved bathed in low level radiation so it is something that we seem to manage pretty well as long as we don't accumulate too high a concentration. As far as I know no one yet has provably died from Fukushima caused radiation although I would guess some have. The biggest tragedy there, like Chernobyl, seems to be caused by the evacuation resulting in huge human and economic costs. But then again there is that robust natural recovery and wilding due to the absence of humans that should be a lesson to us all.