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I set the A first to 440 then octave A below. From that the temperament will be from F3 to F4 so all the notes will be between these two F's setting the 5th's and 4th's. So it will be tuning D from A, (3rolls sharp) G from D, (2 rolls sharp) C from G, (3 rolls sharp) F from C, (2 rolls sharp) then octave F, (above), Bb from both F's, (F3 2 rolls flat, f4 3 rolls sharp) Eb from Bb, (3 rolls sharp) Ab from Eb, 2 rolls sharp) Db from Ab, (2 rolls sharp) Gb from Ab, (3 rolls sharp) B from Gb, ( 2 rolls sharp) and then I tune E from B and it should be 3 rolls sharp and be okay from A, 2 rolls.For me, easier done than said. When I am done I will check the 3rd's and 6th's by themselves and with the G7, Eb7, A7, and Bb7. I can hear the 6th's and any 5th's that are too wide. I will do other checks as I go if needed. As long as I get it right I will not have to go back and redo. Although sometimes i will get up or down the scale and find something not quite right and have to backtrack, but not anything too bad I can't correct easily.

I see, now (perhaps) I get it better. But then I get lost:

..."So it will be tuning D from A, (3rolls sharp)...

I understand D4 from A3;

..."G from D, (2 rolls sharp)...

G3-D4

..."C from G, (3 rolls sharp)...

C4 from G3

..."F from C, (2 rolls sharp) then octave F, (above),...

You mean F3 from C4? Then F4?

..."Bb from both F's, (F3 2 rolls flat, f4 3 rolls sharp)...

Here (perhaps) I get lost. Is it Bb3? And the 4ths F3-Bb3 rolls less than the 5th Bb3-F4?

The temperament is between F3 and F4. All 5th's I do are 3 to the sharp, and all 4th's are 2 to the sharp. If I do A to E it will be 2 to the flat. Instead I tune the E from the B because it will be from the top and be 3 rolls sharp. If I get it right the A from E will be 2 rolls flat. I always tune from the sharp. It is easier to come form the top to set the pin than from the bottom.

About your latest fifths: there is one fifth that is very noticeably beating, C#-G#. Compare that with C-G and let me know if you can hear a big difference.

Perhaps it is time to consider one important fact: when a fifth is very very close to just, you must make sure (be sure) that it is on the correct side, namely narrow. In fact, our ear would accept almost-just fifths that are almost-just/wide, but - for example, in general - we want D4-A4 almost-just/narrow.

Let's consider the base intervals, make sure that A3-A4 is just-wide… how do you know (for sure) that A3-E4 is narrow? You have two ways: gently force your hammer (E4) ccw (counterclockwise) and see if the beat gets faster, then it was narrow. Alternatively, make sure that E4-A4 is wide.

When ever, perhaps you want to exercise your musical ear: fix one note (only centre string), go up to its fifth, tune left string (beating) narrow, right string wide, play slowly, mute in turn right-centre strings // left-centre string and try to relate the narrow and wide beating with abstract "tension" and "mood".

A narrow fifth is flabby and sad, loose and mournful. When ever please, you tell me how you "feel" a wide fifth.

hello Rich I imagine the tuning as much appreciated for popular music, I suppose. I really wish I could hear a sample . If you think about it you are also respecting some model( I am unsure the word equation apply there) I still dont understand your test with notes in the 7 octave. Or do you mean 7th? best regards.

that is fun how we can get used to an interval quality. for instance enlarging tend to favor the projection of tone, I have seen a tuning done with small octaves that was pleasing singers but could not be used in concert without miking.

Edited by Kamin (06/10/1209:35 AM)

_________________________
Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialistI wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!

About your latest fifths: there is one fifth that is very noticeably beating, C#-G#. Compare that with C-G and let me know if you can hear a big difference.

Perhaps it is time to consider one important fact: when a fifth is very very close to just, you must make sure (be sure) that it is on the correct side, namely narrow. In fact, our ear would accept almost-just fifths that are almost-just/wide, but - for example, in general - we want D4-A4 almost-just/narrow.

Let's consider the base intervals, make sure that A3-A4 is just-wide… how do you know (for sure) that A3-E4 is narrow? You have two ways: gently force your hammer (E4) ccw (counterclockwise) and see if the beat gets faster, then it was narrow. Alternatively, make sure that E4-A4 is wide.

When ever, perhaps you want to exercise your musical ear: fix one note (only centre string), go up to its fifth, tune left string (beating) narrow, right string wide, play slowly, mute in turn right-centre strings // left-centre string and try to relate the narrow and wide beating with abstract "tension" and "mood".

A narrow fifth is flabby and sad, loose and mournful. When ever please, you tell me how you "feel" a wide fifth.

About your latest fifths: there is one fifth that is very noticeably beating, C#-G#. Compare that with C-G and let me know if you can hear a big difference.

Perhaps it is time to consider one important fact: when a fifth is very very close to just, you must make sure (be sure) that it is on the correct side, namely narrow. In fact, our ear would accept almost-just fifths that are almost-just/wide, but - for example, in general - we want D4-A4 almost-just/narrow.

Let's consider the base intervals, make sure that A3-A4 is just-wide… how do you know (for sure) that A3-E4 is narrow? You have two ways: gently force your hammer (E4) ccw (counterclockwise) and see if the beat gets faster, then it was narrow. Alternatively, make sure that E4-A4 is wide.

When ever, perhaps you want to exercise your musical ear: fix one note (only centre string), go up to its fifth, tune left string (beating) narrow, right string wide, play slowly, mute in turn right-centre strings // left-centre string and try to relate the narrow and wide beating with abstract "tension" and "mood".

A narrow fifth is flabby and sad, loose and mournful. When ever please, you tell me how you "feel" a wide fifth.

Beat-wise, try to place C#-F# in between A3-D4 and E4-A4. In general, tune and compare every new interval, go correcting the most evident over-beating. Can you spot/confirm point 5?

Buona Domenica, a.c.

Thank you. Noticed the C#-G# beating.

Point 5, not sure if I understand.If C#4 too low in pitch, that's C#4-F#4 too wide. C#4-G#4 too narrow, then D#4 will be too low, then A#3 and F4 also too low. Is his the meaning of point 5?

Practice again tomorrow. Will tune C4-G4 center string to pure fifth, then G4 left string lower a beat, right string raise a beat to listen the different of wider/narrower tone.

Thank you.

Thank you, Weiyan.

You noticed C#-G# beating, very good. It is beating because it is a very narrow 5th.

You can look at that in two ways:

- G# is too low from just (in pitch); in this case you raise G# closer to almost-just 5th; - C# is too high from just (in pitch); in this case you lower C# (closer to almost-just 5th);

I noticed the 4th C#-F# non-beating (it is too just): in this case if you lower C# you can adjust (at least) two intervals: C#-G# gets (correct) wide and C#-F# gets less narrow (less beating - closer to just).

Please notice the chain of effect (events?): look at point 2 (A#3-F4), C#-F (as a M3) is Ok; if you lower C# you have to (must) lower also F.

In general, that is what you need to develop in time, the ability to visualize the chain of effects for every move.

In general, evaluate the effect of each move and try to improve (at least) two intervals with one move.

Always ask yourself: what happens (to the other intervals) if I modify this interval? You can do also this exercise (*) in abstract, even reasoning with yourself, without moving anything.

Regards, a.c.

(*) Edit: so doing, you will be able to draw the "intervals relation map".

Alfredo is faster to help you with structure, I appreciate it it give me a rest Thank you Alfredo.

It is easy to be confused between too large 5ths(beating slow) and too small (correctly beating).

I usually recognize that immediately on a piano because of the behavior of the activity, too straight and at the same time unbalanced, but on the recordings I can get confused easily, I find.

Weyian you are progressing at the speed of light (of sound I may say . Let me suggest to you both that when recording the 5ths or the 4ths you sequence them in the same order than the temperament. That would make it easier for all of us to find the relations. What do you think Alfredo ? chromatic sequence may be used later.

Also, the M6th are very useful . May be you could record 6 notes in sequence from the beginning of the temperament, then 7 , etc.

I understand well you are working on 4ths, 5ths and octaves (the octaves begin to be quite good and you are hearing and thinking "structurally" which is what is necessary.

Once the basic reasoning is obtained, you can tune directly the sequence, as mistakes are more easily corrected when more notes/intervals arrive , for instance the A3 F# sixth give yet a first idea of whenever the precedent intervals are good or not.

Yes, Isaac, once again you have read into my thoughts! You see, perhaps we both are from a different planet ;-) but yours is still... faster!

I did think of asking Weiyan for the sequence exact order recording, then I read "G4 is the last note" he tunes... that is why I wrote ..."In a while, when you are ready, I'll tell you more about the sequence."

How nice to see that you too are "there".

About 6ths, it is precisely as you say, A3-F#4 gives the first FBI measure and relates this FBI with the previous SBI's; we evaluate that 6th out of its tension, taste, flavor, I'd say intonation... I'm sure we'll get there too.

I open all Weiyan's recs (M3's, 5ths and 4ths) and play the intervals jumping from one window to another one, so I can follow many relations at once, like if I was to play.

Weiyan, please do not feel sorry, I am very happy when I can be of help, and your desires and efforts may help others too. So… we may all be happy.

Thirds:

A3-C#4: about 5 bps - too sweet, should beat faster, more tense; A#3-D4: nice/a bit too fast - you can hear it is sensibly faster than previous; B3-D#4: nice - very similar (slower) to previous - that difference is advanced stuff;

C4-E4: almost Ok - slower than previous; C#4-F4: almost Ok - you hear it is sensibly faster than previous; D4-F#4: too slow - compare with A3-C#, you hear it is similar - you want it similar to previous; D#4-G4: not too bad;

E4-G#4: leave these out. F4-A4: ==

Let's consider 5ths (it is a very important "harmonic" interval and you said A3-E4 is difficult, let's work on difficulties first):

Your analysis was correct! You have improved C4-E4 and D4-G#4; at this stage, refine the M3's similarities: A3-C#4 is too slow; C#4-F4 (too fast)//D4-F#4 (slow) these are too different.

Perhaps A3 can go down (in pitch), so A3-E4 gets closer to narrow-just and A3-C#4 gets faster;Perhaps D4 down, so A3-C#4 and A3#-D4 get more similar and D4-F#4 gets wider (faster);Perhaps A#3 up, so A#3-F4 gets narrow and A#3-D4 more similar to neighbors;Perhaps C4 down, so improving C-E and C-G.

As Isaac said, you have done a great job. Now, also move on above A4… use octaves (almost-just // on the wide side) and 5ths (almost-just \\ on the narrow side). From F4-C5 up… go for octaves (almost-just // on the wide side) and aurally beat-less 5ths.

The police opened a file of a man use an private Email as witness to accuse me slander. It's strange here slander is criminal case, use private email as witness is super terrible. For example, I send email to Issac back mouth Someone. Then Issac forward to Someone. Someone use the email to accuse me. Police may charge me with this email. Nearly no freedom here. I go to relate party to complain and have appoint with a regional Councillor tomorrow noon.

Hello weyian I am sorry to read that. i am unsure I get it all. The privacy seem to be a different concept than I thought but seem to me that there is attack to ors by forwarding a private mail.I hope. it will turn to a good end.

All the best.cIsaac

Edited by Kamin (06/12/1207:45 AM)

_________________________
Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialistI wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!

Alfredo asked me to tune the octaves up. Sorry, I tune up and down, not followed the instruction strictly. Its strange tune the octave before the temperament is OK. Its magic that when tuning the octave, the errors in temperament are enlarged and easily be fixed.

For example: Tune A3->A2Tune C3->A2 from narrow side, until there is marginal beat. The octave is ready.

After tuning the octaves, test by 10ths, they are nice and consistence. Test by chords, the voice is open.

OMG, some chords are sour. Actually some thirds out of control. Still take some more time to practice. The pin setting is next target.

Why its easy to crack? I found that a very slight crack in A3-A4 octave, the crack is enlarged in octaves. Fortunately, its easy to amend. Its easy to locate the crack.

Aflredo didn't tell me the procedure explicitly. Yesterday instruct me to tune the octaves, tune the fifth marginal narrow. After hours practice octaves, I get what you said. You seems a great teacher who never give explicit instruction, just let the student to discover it. How amazing.

I had asked Issac why call it pre-tuning instead temperament. Issac didn't give me an answer. Its better to let me discover the answer. After days of practice, I try to sum up my impression of CHAS.

For CHAS doesn't have temperament concept as ET do. In ET tuning, tune and fine tune temperament octave, then extend to octaves. Use this concept in CHAS is disaster.

In CHAS, all 88 notes is a temperament. Pre-tune A3-A4. When the progressions near OK, tune octaves. If fifth and octave cannot reconcile, there is a crack. Amend the crack.