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Precious

“Precious” (2009) isa film based on the book “Push” (1996) by Sapphire. It was directed by Lee Daniels and stars Gabourey Sidibe, Mo’Nique, Paula Patton, Mariah Carey and Lenny Kravitz. Oprah Winfrey and Tyler Perry were the executive producers.

Precious, played by Gabourey Sidibe, is a 16-year-old girl growing up poor in Harlem. It is 1987. Almost everything that can go wrong in her life has gone wrong. Her mother beats her, calls her names and tells her to quit school to go on welfare (the dole). Her father rapes her and so now she is expecting her second child. That is just the first half hour. From there it gets worse and worse and worse – with just a few inconstant rays of sunlight – all the way till the last few minutes. But it has an ending that Oprah would die for.

Mo’Nique and Mariah Carey were very good.

Mariah Carey was so good, in fact, that my sister did not even know she was in the film. She was the woman at the welfare office who handled Precious’s case. You are so used to seeing her looking Hollywood pretty that it is strange seeing her looking and acting like an ordinary person, complete with wash-and-go brown hair and a New York accent.

Mo’Nique played the mother who was, in effect, an evil stepmother figure, stereotyped as a welfare queen. All she does is sit and watch television all day and throws things at Precious – she does not even cook or shop. She is so easy to hate.

Paula Patton played a teacher at a special school for girls in trouble. She was kind and sweet, a good fairy figure. She brought Precious’s reading up from a first-year level to a seventh-year level in a matter of months. She is almost a Mighty Lighty character.

Lenny Kravitz played a handsome nurse.

Colourism: apart from Precious, all the good characters are light-skinned, thin, kind, patient, middle-class and speak Standard English. Meanwhile her mother, the main evil character, has none of those qualities.

Precious shares this colourism: her dream boyfriend is “light-skinned”, as she puts it, and when she looks at herself in the mirror she imagines a white girl, like that was the prettiest thing you could be.

Poverty, in the person of Mo’Nique, is a personal failing, a thing blacks suffer from because they are so screwed up and refuse to look for work. In the person of Precious it can be escaped by pulling yourself up by your bootstraps.

But that is Hollywood. In New York itself poverty is vast – it is not just a few bad apples – and yet for some strange reason it rarely affects white people directly. Unlike in the film, government services in black neighbourhoods are second-rate. It is very hard to see all that day after day and think racism has nothing to do with it. But in Hollywood it rarely does.

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The book and the movie are quite different
In the book Paula Patton’s character is dark skin and has dreadlocks and teaches Precious to love appreciate her dark skin and natural hair, but of course that could not happen in the movie with Paula Patton there.

I think I see the logic behind the casting of Lenny, Mariah, and Paula. First, none of them is a big movie star at this point, so they probably didn’t demand much to star in the film. Second, Lenny and Mariah are (or were) big musical acts and Paula’s fame has been on the rise so they probably pulled in a bunch of viewers based on name recognition. Hence, it makes sense from a simple cost/benefit point of view.

Yes..I have never seen the film but I heard it was very much a “Mighty Lighty” film. I was watching a review of the film by the Young Turks and Ben Mankiewicz(who ironically has a black wife) touched on it. He said it was kind of weird how Paul Patton’s character constantly had a “glow” about her. Based on what I have heard from people who actually saw the movie the producers wanted to make extra sure that P. Patton was the “savior” in the movie, along with the other light-skinned and “proper” blacks.

I want to read the book before I see the movie just so I know who much they changed the print version to accommodate Hollywood expectations.

Aiyo, thats a shame they would change that character for the movie edition. Its seems like Precious realizing that dark-skin and kinky hair is beautiful would be very important to the plot because of her struggles with colorism and low self-esteem. She sad indeed.

Sometimes I think Im being a little too sensitive when it comes to colorism and the differences between how dark and light blacks are portrayed int eh media; but when I hear things like what Aiyo said I know Im not being oversensitive.

Exactly! I Googled her a few minutes ago and she doesn’t look like Jennifer Lopez, so I guess this image was misleading.

FG,
I don’t think the blackness of Paula Patton is “challenged”, but rather the view that you must be light skinned and with some European features, relaxed hair, etc. in order to be seen as “good”. The opposite view (that you must be dark skinned to be good would be equally wrong, but that stereotype doesn’t exist, as far as I know).

“I don’t think the blackness of Paula Patton is “challenged”, but rather the view that you must be light skinned and with some European features, relaxed hair, etc. in order to be seen as “good”. The opposite view (that you must be dark skinned to be good would be equally wrong, but that stereotype doesn’t exist, as far as I know).”

The movie never claimed you had to look like that to be percieved as good. That’s what insecure people watching the movie assumed it was saying.

The movie never claimed you had to look like that to be perceived as good. That’s what insecure people watching the movie assumed it was saying.

Mmm I wouldnt say insecure but conscious. People who are conscious about the portrayals of blacks in the media picked up on this. P. Patton is not at fault, she needs to work and make a living like everyone else, and I certainly dont blame her for that. At the same time it would be naive to believe what was documented in “Precious” isnt consistent with the pattern we see when it comes to how blacks are portrayed in the media.

Aiyo already pointed out a glaring omission the producers left out when it comes to Precious and her getting over her colorism. For reasons that are obvious to me the producers felt it was okay to omit Precious learning to love her phenotype but didnt see a problem with changing the phenotype of her mentors and the “good” characters to fit a more popular, “relatable” aesthetic. Granted, I have yet to read the book or watch the movie but based on what I’ve read and heard about the movie, this seems to be the case.

And here we go again with colorism!I won’t be watching this disturbing claptrap, throw this movie along with The Blind Side in the bin and chuck it! smdh
Did she really see a white girl looking back at her in the mirror? What an insult! Life is bad and your escapism is being white?

Did she really see a white girl looking back at her in the mirror? What an insult! Life is bad and your escapism is being white?

I know Merrimay, that alone is putting me off to this movie…Again why is it okay to put the being a white girl escapism into the movie but its not okay to put the getting over colorism part in the movie???

Do we know what actors turned down any of those roles? Could it be that only light skinned actors accepted those role? A coincidence or a conspiracy? So if you wound up with a light skinned actress, would the audience think it a little disingenuous for her to get Precious to love her skin and hair?

This movie was produced as a low budget film. No “movie stars”, an unknown actress, musicians and an actress that has had few roles lately.

Co-sign, quite embarassing, an utter shame. If Oprah was executive producer, didn’t she have creative control over the darned movie? For all her baying over the years about loving our color how could she let such drivel stand?
Y, you’re right, ommitting her overcoming the colorism part, what could haven been such a huge and moving significant part of the movie gave a false and empty premise, and did nothing to dispel the source of her color issues.

It didn’t explain to a clueless white audience why Precious would even imagine herself as white.
Think lighter, surround yourself with anything lighter, your help is lighter, and voila you’re magically enlightened…
I’m losing the will to live on this movie!

“The book and the movie are quite different
In the book Paula Patton’s character is dark skin and has dreadlocks and teaches Precious to love appreciate her dark skin and natural hair, but of course that could not happen in the movie with Paula Patton there.”

I agree Aiyo, its odd that they changed that in the movie…well, not odd but sad like abagond said

I read the book years ago and found it depressing and also a bit unbelievable. Not that I don’t think real people don’t go through what Precious does (or worse), but the writing in the book felt very…gratuitous. Didn’t really want to see the movie, but I don’t go to movies very often anyway, so that’s no surprise.

also, one important thing they omitted in the movie was the fact that in the book, precious was ignorant of her black history. She didn’t know much about the civil rights movement at all and she only liked farrakhan. when she meets the teacher, she gives her a new poster to put up on her wall of a civil rights leader and teachers her about what bp went through, Precious even says in one part in the book, if i remember correctly…” i didn’t know bp went through all that.”

That was important an important part because knowing her history helps her come into knowing herself.

i mean, i would rather look at paula patton than a nice white lady any day…but my issues is just that they brushed over the issue of colorism entirely. They didn’t even touch on the reasons precious complusively overeats. She is obviously depressed and its many people who are sexually abused to compulsively overeat as a way to insulate their pain.

Thanks for that link. I see Lee Daniels actually admitted that he is prejudiced against people who are darker than him. How sad. To me that explains his casting. Wait isn’t he dark himself? Again very sad.

A friend of mine saw this movie and she said there were many clichés coming out of the wazoo. She thought the movie was horrible and walked out.

I finally saw it on DVD recently and cringed throughout for just that reason. Especially when she steals a bucket of fried chicken and eats the whole thing while walking down the street. Almost had to quit right there.

Wow. I never read the book but it seems like they left out some of the best parts. It sounds like casting light-skinned actors undercut the message of the book. I too am surprised that Oprah would sign off on something like this.

By the way, only 1% of black Americans are a half white or more – yet Kravitz, Carey and Patton all are. So it seems very odd.

@ Peanut or Aiyo:

In the book was the Paula Patton character a lesbian like in the film?

@ Mira:

I would not recommend the film but the book sounds like it might be good.

“By the way, only 1% of black Americans are a half white or more – yet Kravitz, Carey and Patton all are. So it seems very odd. ”

Not to me. I see it as a marketing thing. Daniels and alot of other entertainment big shots know that biracial sells well to audiences of all colors. That’s one reason why Mariah was such a huge success before this movie came out.

Daniels and alot of other entertainment big shots know that biracial sells well to audiences of all colors

Will Smith,Denzel Washington, and Eddie Murphy do pretty well and they are not biracial. If biracials sell so well then why aren’t they starring more in leading movie roles? Roles that Brad Pitt, Nicolas Cage, and Tom Cruise would do. Why are biracials mostly in black films or casted as a black person if they sell so well to all races? Why isn’t Halle starring in the type of roles like Julia Roberts, Nicole Kidman, or Meryl Streep does? Halle had to get nude and hump a nasty old white man to get her Oscar.

Again why is it okay to put the being a white girl escapism into the movie but its not okay to put the getting over colorism part in the movie???

I think this was an unfortunate screw-up in the adaptation. They should have included a scene where she comes to appreciate her own beauty. I got the feeling that the movie wants you to pity Precious for seeing herself as a white girl in the mirror, and for explicitly wanting a “light skinned boyfriend”, but they didn’t go far enough to make it clear. As it is, it seems like we’re supposed to feel sorry for Precious because she’s not light and therefore “beautiful”. This runs counter to the point of the story which is supposed to be that Precious is, well, already Precious.

After reading Peanut’s link I do think it was colorism on the part of the filmmakers. Shame.

Anyway, I am not sure what director wanted to do with this movie. I don’t think he wanted to appeal to whites, because this is definitely not something they want to watch. To them, guess, this is a “black” movie, and it’s depressing, so they are not interested. So I guess director cast biracials because of some internal motive. I don’t know.

Lenny is really pleasant to look at, but no thanks. I’ll try to find the book.

I finally saw it on DVD recently and cringed throughout for just that reason. Especially when she steals a bucket of fried chicken and eats the whole thing while walking down the street. Almost had to quit right there.

LOL I also cringed when Monique’s character suggested that only homosexuals can get AIDS. Since people judge us base on what they see on TV that really made black women look ignorant. SMH

I don’t know if “biracial” sells well because not all White people know that those people are biracial. There are still White people who don’t know Halle Berry is biracial, and you’d think she’d be the poster child, having been raised by a White mother and all. Hence why they (i.e., the media) calls her “Black”, among other reasons.

I agree with Leaveumthinking–at best, biracial people get cast as Blacks do, not really as raceless leads like White people. The talent of biracial actors/actresses isn’t lauded like that of megastar Blacks like Will Smith, Samuel L. Jackson, Morgan Freeman, etc., but maybe that’s because the only big one is Halle, and she’s not really very good.

The only person who makes sense in casting is Paula Patton to me. Mariah Carey sucks as an actress and doesn’t have much of a singing career left, and Lenny Kravitz is just random, albeit good-looking with that short hair. *winks at Mira* 😛

In America, the only race that has universal appeal in mass media is the white race. Period. Every other movie with a predominately non-white cast has to have a token white person(usually in a major role) so the film doesn’t seem like its a “minority flick”.

A lot of white people did see the movie becasue of Oprah and her amazing super human influencing powers. There were a few articles about it calling the film poverty porn for rich white folks.

I hated when I read how white people went up to Gabourey Sidbe and asked her if her two kids were doing better and how is she coping with HIV. Because they belive that the film was a documentary. Not just any white people but white folks that have been in the biz for time.

They thought it was a documntary even though
Mariah Carey and Lenny Kravitz starred in the film two big celebrities
Even though the film was set in the 80’s!

It’s like what Paul Mooney was saying black actors are reality stars to white people.

Eh, don’t get me wrong, but I don’t see “Precious” as a movie about black community. I see it as a movie about troubled family and abused teen that happens to be black. Some of her experiences are race-specific (wanting to be white, wanting a light skinned boyfriend) but others are general (father raping her, teenage pregnancy, poverty, HIV), so I guess the main point of the film is not race-specific. However, with black main characters, I am afraid whites are unable to see the general message and usually .

Of course, I’d have to watch it to confirm this.

I understand the black people’s anger towards this movie. I already said it I don’t see it as a race-specific movie. However, with black main characters, I am afraid whites are unable to see the general message and most of them interpret the movie as a sign of conditions in the black community.

I believe in artistic freedom, and no, I don’t think an artist should be limited by society in any way (in this case, white supremacist world OR black community). But if you decide to use stereotypes expect to be criticized. If you want to send a message, think twice before using stereotypes because that’s all people going to see.

@Jasmin

Lenny Kravitz is just random, albeit good-looking with that short hair. *winks at Mira*

Wait, he’s short-haired in the movie? I’ll pass 😛

No, seriously, I like the guy and he’s hot even in those atrocious clothes he likes to wear. But he’s not enough of a reason to see this movie.

However, with black main characters, I am afraid whites are unable to see the general message and usually believe this is what black people really are (and that those problems are something that can’t happen to THEM).

I haven’t seen the movie or read the book. From the reviews I have read, the movie/book is just too depressing for my taste. The debate reminds me of the debates over “The Color Purple” (a book/movie I did consume, and hated with a vengeance, but I’m over that now).

Must all movies involving Negroes be uplifting? Does the colorist angle of the film more or less reflect reality? And is colorism, like its brother racism, a naturally occurring phenomenon? I have definite opinions on all of these questions, but I’m not sure whether analyzing “Precious” gets one any closer to clarifying these issues.

Peanut,

Exploring colorism would have made the movie even more of a downer. The producers and director could not have explored colorism without exploring racism, which in turn would have required an analysis of racial differences, and NOBODY wants to see a movie about THAT!

In the NPR interview Sapphire said that she was not concerned about the stereotyping because:

1. There are enough representations of black families in the mainstream, like the Obamas, that no one is going to watch “Precious” and think that that is how black people are.

2. The film tries to crack open and humanize the stereotypes by showing that Precious, a fat black woman, is just like everyone else and has the same hopes and dreams and so on.

Which, if you grant all that, would still make it a cringefest for many black viewers – who will notice the stereotypes but not the humanization (since Precious was already humanized in their minds) – but would be a different experience for white viewers.

Paula Patton did supposedly help Precious see her own beauty – there were a few lines to that effect and later on Precious looked in the mirror and saw herself as she was, not as a white girl. But given the underlying colourism of the film (light skin = good; dark skin = bad), it did not seem real.

Also, that the title is the moral of the story – that Precious is precious – did not come across to me in the film. Maybe because I assumed it from the beginning.

Abagond: for me, who grew up with the Huckstable era, I didn’t find it to be a racist characterization of all blacks – or even most blacks – I did find it really sad – and thought about all those white kids who get raped by father’s and brothers and others – incest and poverty aren’t just inner city issues. What I can’t relate to is the analyzation of skin color – that’s not something I am used to hearing micro-analyzed.

“Does the colorist angle of the film more or less reflect reality? And is colorism, like its brother racism, a naturally occurring phenomenon?”

If “racism” refers to discrimination based purely on ancestry (rather than phenotype), racism cannot be “naturally occurring” because there are societies which are essentially non-racist, like Mexico or Brazil. I’m not sure if there are any societies that lack colorism, though.

1. There are enough representations of black families in the mainstream, like the Obamas, that no one is going to watch “Precious” and think that that is how black people are.

Sapphire was wrong many whites don’t think of the Obama’s when they think of blacks. Even though most blacks are middle class whites seem to veiw most blacks as poor/lower income. Whites veiw lower income blacks as depending on welfare, overweight, having out of wedlock kids, uneducated, and not speaking “proper” English. All of theses things would describe how “Precious” and Monique are portrayed in the movie.

Wow. The more you look at this film the worse it gets! Some of what is in the review is just spin by Counter-Racist, but some of it most certainly had to be conscious on the part of Lee Daniels.

Lee Daniels must hate black people or something. As noted in that NPR interview he was the producer (they said director) of “Monster’s Ball”, the one where “Halle had to get nude and hump a nasty old white man to get her Oscar,” as Leaveum put it.

Thanks for the various revues of this film. I will not be seeing it. I would probably prefer watching Uncle Remus singing ‘Zippity-do-dah, or Amos and Andy reruns which are blatantly racist and written and produced by whites. After reading about the director’s internalized racism, thanks for the links, I will not be seeing any thing in the future done by him either. It is an insult to blacks when racist claptrap is produced in Hollywood. It is doubly so when it is one of your ‘own’ producing such garbage. I am still waiting for ‘Hollywood’ to make films such as one based on the Nat Turner slave revolt or other such movies of this ilk. But they would probably fcuk it up by inserting a ‘Mighty Whitey’ character who ultimately acts as the ‘Saving Grace’ of the unruly Negroes. Nope, I will stick to books. I knew there was a reason why I haven’t been to the movies in years! I refuse to spend my cash on these types of ‘entertainments’ thereby supporting the continuing production of films of this ilk and any other garbage Hollywood churns out.

Be that as it may, I’m skeptical about claims that Mexico, Brazil, and other Latin American countries are significantly more colorist than the US. The people who make these claims tend to be white and black nationalists from the states who despise Latin America’s high levels of racial mixture and nuanced racial categorizations.

I didn’t see the movie, so I don’t know what LK’s hair looked like, but I know I only like him with short hair. Church this morning made me realize that the only long-haired style I like on men is dreads, and then it depends on the guy. 😉

You must be consistent. This thread is not about the artistic merits of the film, but the politics of the film. Issues such as racism, colorism and sexual abuse are all relevant to the discussion of the movie. You opened the door to the discussion of colorism yourself. Don’t delete comments just because you don’t like them. If there are issues you do not wish to discuss in this thread, please enunciate them. What you are doing now is absurd. Perhaps your deletion of comments should be a thread in itself.

Clearly, colorism (and its development) is relevant to this thread. If it is not relevant, could you please delete the paragraphs on colorism in your opening post? Is Lenny Kravitz’s hair relevant to this topic? What about Nat Turner? Is he relevant? If you don’t want me commenting on your blog, just say so.

“I liked the film, but thought that they went a bit overboard casting light versus dark almost straight across.”

I’m not sure there was a color bias in the casting. First, the “race” of Mariah Carey’s character wasn’t even revealed. If I remember correctly, her ambiguous appearance was brought up as a topic of conversation near the end for some reason. Second, is Lenny Kravitz significantly more Euro-looking than the non-biracial “black” actors and actresses in the film? Paula Patton’s casting appears to have generated the most controversy. Maybe the fact that she was made Precious’ mentor has something to do with colorism. However, I can’t help but thinking that some are communicating discomfort with her appearance and background when they complain about her presence in the movie.

Church this morning made me realize that the only long-haired style I like on men is dreads, and then it depends on the guy. 😉

I like dreads, they look amazing, all types of it. 😀

@Abagond

Here is how Lenny Kravitz looked in the movie:

I like it. It’s not the best photo, but he looks great, especially given the fact he’s not wearing his piercing jewelry (which is ok, but it’s sometimes a bit distracting).

@Thad

I liked the film, but thought that they went a bit overboard casting light versus dark almost straight across.

I guess the director has some issues.

And as for stereotypes, movies influence people’s opinion and are strong source of propaganda, sometimes even more than we realize. So in theory, it is possible to make a movie that will help to overcome stereotypes. But in that case, no matter on the subject, you must make it clear what’s the message you’re trying to send.

Maybe the director, as a black guy, didn’t understand what would make whites rethink their prejudice and realize black people are not the way they thought they were.

On the other hand, as a black guy, I am sure he understood the power of colourism message, but decided to go with the stereotype.

Like I said, I don’t see black people that way but I am not bombarded by bad images of black people all day in the news like, I assume, white Americans are.

“Clearly, colorism (and its development) is relevant to this thread. If it is not relevant, could you please delete the paragraphs on colorism in your opening post? Is Lenny Kravitz’s hair relevant to this topic? What about Nat Turner? Is he relevant? If you don’t want me commenting on your blog, just say so.”

Colourism in Hollywood or in American society at large is fine but not in Latin America. I fail to see how the colour of Latin American presidents and beauty queens relates to this film. If you need to go off topic to make a point then please make it clear that that is what you are doing.

I understand that when your comment is deleted it is natural to take it personally. I can assure you that is not the case here. You have said stuff on my blog that has got me way more upset than anything said here and yet I did not delete it.

u know the more i think of it, the more i think precious was just a racist movie too. The book was so different, also in the book Precious wasn’t the only fat girl. there was a light-skinned fat girl in the class at one point too. In fact in the book precious says something along the lines of why do wp look so good on tv, are they better looking than blacks then she says ‘ no, her white counselor at school is busted.” or something, i need to find the quote. But, they left so many important lines out. Precious learns that society has a standard that is racist and unrealistic.

The movie sucked the more i think about it. I agree w/ the people who said why are wp so fascinated w/ the dysfunctional portrayal of bp. WHy do all the movies of bp doing incest get so much play??? I agree its racist…

also, i agree w/ the article that I don’t believe they would encourage a 400 lb ww to stay at that weight, I don’t. Precious’s weight is a health issue that the movie just did not touch on. She is obese due to the poverty and inequalities in healthcare and the movie just did not touch on that. I don’t think people understood that the reason she was carrying so much excess weight was because of the excess ’emotional’ weight that she was carrying internally. They didn’t touch on that at all, instead they just made it out to be okay when it was just a sad thing…all around.

“Sapphire was wrong many whites don’t think of the Obama’s when they think of blacks. Even though most blacks are middle class whites seem to veiw most blacks as poor/lower income. Whites veiw lower income blacks as depending on welfare, overweight, having out of wedlock kids, uneducated, and not speaking “proper” English. ”

response:
i can tell you from experience, that some white people do not see sucessful, together blacks like the Obamas/ Huxtables as the norm for bp, but as exceptions. I have experienced being called “White-girl in a black girl’s body,” and being referred to as “not like other blacks,” enough to attest to that. So, I do think that some (many) think that most bp are dysfunctional

In the picture at the top of the post Paula Patton looks like she could maybe pass for white (but please know that I am bad at telling who can pass for white). But in general she cannot pass since she has experienced racism herself in Hollywood.

Her father is black, her mother is white. If you put her next to a white person it is much clearer that she is not white:

I think white people who are quick to dismiss the Obamas and the Huxtables as being “not like most blacks” will not be so quick to dismiss Precious’s family for the same reason – because her family fits too many stereotypes they already have, which for them makes it more “truly black”. Also, whites seem much readier to believe bad things about blacks than good things.

I am even worse when it comes to telling who can pass and who can’t. It all depends on the culture. On the other thread I mentioned Adriana Lima looked completely white to me, while it’s obvious she’s not regarded as such in the US.

But I agree: Patton’s photo you used is a bit misleading (she does look like Jennifer Lopez here and to me J Lo is white). She looks more black on the new photo you posted. To be honest, she looks mixed, but that’s just me, I don’t want to insult anybody by implying you can’t be fully black and look like her because I guess you can. What I’m saying is, if she experienced racism that clearly means she is not viewed as white in America and that fact alone makes her black regardless of her skin tone, facial features or amount of white blood in her ancestry.

But if her characters was supposed to be dark skinned and had dreadlocks* then I guess I’d prefer to see a dark skinned actress in the role.

*I still don’t understand how dreadlocks are viewed in America so I don’t know if they “go” with “embracing African ancestry” or it’s just something unrelated. Dreadlocks are viewed differently in my country. They are quite popular and so are weaves (but not for the same social groups).

“What I’m saying is, if she experienced racism that clearly means she is not viewed as white in America and that fact alone makes her black regardless of her skin tone, facial features or amount of white blood in her ancestry.”

This implies an oppression-based view of identity that not everyone shares.

I think white people who are quick to dismiss the Obamas and the Huxtables as being “not like most blacks” will not be so quick to dismiss Precious’s family for the same reason – because her family fits too many stereotypes they already have, which for them makes it more “truly black”. Also, whites seem much readier to believe bad things about blacks than good things.

I think that might be the problem, yes. Like I said, I see the story as universal and not race specific. However, it’s impossible to send ANY “general message” to whites using non-white actors.

(Because white is “neutral” and “general”, remember? Non-whites can be used only for sending race/culture-specific messages. Despite the fact they make majority of humans, to whites, they can never represent general humanity).

“I am even worse when it comes to telling who can pass and who can’t. It all depends on the culture. On the other thread I mentioned Adriana Lima looked completely white to me, while it’s obvious she’s not regarded as such in the US.”

Perceptions of race/ethnicity also vary within the US. Some white Americans would view Paula Patton as black no matter what. Others would regard her as biracial (at least if they were informed of her background).

“I was under the impression others decide on your race, namely, whether you’re white or not. You can see yourself as an Asian man but if everybody else see you as a black guy… ?”

Well, race relations in the US is much more complicated than a simple white/non-white distinction. The “POC” term obscures major differences between the situation of the various racial minority groups. There are different types of discrimination, and the simple fact of being discriminated against by whites doesn’t make you black. You could be discriminated against for being Hispanic, NA, Asian, and so on.

Based on phenotype I would say P. Patton is biracial/ has significant white/non-black ancestry. However if she seees herself as black and wishes to be called black. I have no problems accepting that.

Either way I think she is quite pretty and dont have an issue with her. My only problem is Lee “stepin fetchit” Daniels pushing his colorism agenda and (apparently) cherry picking what issues he wanted to highlight in the movie

There are different types of discrimination, and the simple fact of being discriminated against by whites doesn’t make you black. You could be discriminated against for being Hispanic, NA, Asian, and so on.

“In the picture at the top of the post Paula Patton looks like she could maybe pass for white (but please know that I am bad at telling who can pass for white). But in general she cannot pass since she has experienced racism herself in Hollywood.”

i don’t think paula patton could pass for white in america in the least

Part of the problem with these discrete racial categories is that they don’t recognize that whites themselves can be colorist. I suspect that someone who looks like Sidibe is significantly more likely to suffer discrimination at the hands of whites than someone who looks like Paula.

i’m not saying paula patton shouldn’t have played the part, had they examined the colorism issue, i would have been fine w/ her essaying the role. but they just glossed over it and didn’t explain it at all, then top that off w/ all good characters being light-skinned it does give a odd-message. i still love paula patton, i tihnk she’s beautiful and did the role really well actually. But, I fault Lee Daniels for not sticking to the main points of the books. all the important points in the book got cut or glossed over and that’s his fault. Also, now realizing that he direct monster’s ball, i don’t know why he was selected to direct precious in the first place after that monster’s ball garbage.

also in the scene where precious pumps mariah carey’s character about what her ethnicity is…i dont’ remember that in the book at all. I didn’t get the point of it or what the significan was of that scene…at all…???

The picture at the top of the post depresses me; this and all the other images in the media where only light skinned people are allowed to be well adjusted individuals and useful members of society, while dark skinned people are the preferred actors for dysfunctional characters. I keep seeing this in black movies, especially among female actresses. It reminds me of the colourism I’ve been facing all my life (not necessarily from my own race). Despite being radically different from Precious, in that I’ve always done well in school and have better self esteem and goals in life, I often come across lighter hued individuals who are just condescending towards me, and assume things about me or my background that are truly unkind. e.g. my home environment must be unhappy, my parents can’t possibly love each other, I must have bad grades, we must be poor etc etc etc. Sometimes I get so depressed from all this pity directed towards me. Sometimes I start to believe they are right, and there is something about me to be pitied. Why are some light skinned individuals (of all races) so determined to seek confirmation that their fantasies about us are true? I always wish for others only good things in life, but it seems as though the colour of my skin makes it impossible to extend the same to me. People seem smug at the idea that dark skinned people have a lower quality of life than them. I truly feel hated by my society, since it delights itself in seeing us miserable, and gets uncomfortable and threatened when I defy their stereotypes. It makes me cry and want to end it all sometimes.

I was okay w/ the movie, the first time i saw it, but the more I learn, the more I dislike the way it was portrayed. They should have stuck to the descriptions of the people in the book and why did they omit the fat light-skinned girl???

I said J Lo is white to me. She is seen white in my culture. I understand she might be viewed differently in the US and I understand that, but my own “cultural glasses” make me unable to see her as a non-white person. There’s nothing I can do about that.

“Up” was a great movie, but I heard people said it was racist too. In any case, I must admit I liked it a lot, especially its message, that the life we’re living TODAY is an adventure and that we should not forget to actually live while dreaming great dreams.

“J-Lo is NOT White. Many Latinas like her have Black blood and can look just like Paula Patton.”

It depends on who you ask. I think she and other mixed people who look like her (e.g. Adriana, Mariah) would be regarded as white by many in more cosmopolitan and liberal parts of the country. Not everyone subscribes to a racial purity definition of whiteness.

I think white people who are quick to dismiss the Obamas and the Huxtables as being “not like most blacks” will not be so quick to dismiss Precious’s family for the same reason – because her family fits too many stereotypes they already have, which for them makes it more “truly black”. Also, whites seem much readier to believe bad things about blacks than good things.

I remember when “The Cosby Show” debuted, I was very happy to see people who looked like me. Okay, okay. You know I’m Asian. 😉 However, I was pleased as punch to see a family of color on tv. In my junior high school, a teacher discussed stereotypes in the media and one student piped up and said The Cosby Show was unrealistic because black people are supposed to be uneducated, drug dealers. I defended the show saying it was positive and showed a loving family with well-educated professionals running the household. And my class, I went to a dominantly white school, mind you, roared with laughter. That same student said, “How many black doctors do you know?” I replied, “None.” He snorted and remarked, “There you go.” And I couldn’t believe the teacher. He said nothing to dispel the stereotype about black people.

Paula Patton said she’s Black (according to her, both of her parents sat her and her brother down and talked to them about being Black in America) in the May 2010 issue of Ebony. That’s the same interview in which she talks about “biracial” distancing mixed people from other Blacks.

In this picture above, she looks just like this girl Noelle I went to high school with (who’s never said she’s anything but Black, to my knowledge, but maybe she’s mixed), so I can’t see her as White, though I thought PP was a dead ringer for Halle Berry in that movie with Denzel.

I see J. Lo, and all other Hispanics/Latinos, as their nationalities, i.e., Puerto Rican, probably because that’s how all of the people close to me identify.

I’d also agree with Abagond that people are quicker to believe negative stereotypes–even Black people raised in the most White-bread suburbs are expected to have some magical knowledge about “the hood”.

There are Nigerians in the movie? I thought it was about aliens vs South Africans (mainly white). (Well, not really, but I was unaware there were some non-white humans as important characters… I did see some black people in the trailer but it appeared there were no racial tensions between humans, and that it was one of the points).

“Paula Patton said she’s Black (according to her, both of her parents sat her and her brother down and talked to them about being Black in America) in the May 2010 issue of Ebony. That’s the same interview in which she talks about “biracial” distancing mixed people from other Blacks.

In this picture above, she looks just like this girl Noelle I went to high school with (who’s never said she’s anything but Black, to my knowledge, but maybe she’s mixed), so I can’t see her as White, though I thought PP was a dead ringer for Halle Berry in that movie with Denzel.

I see J. Lo, and all other Hispanics/Latinos, as their nationalities, i.e., Puerto Rican, probably because that’s how all of the people close to me identify.”

It’s interesting that some people’s identity choices are respected (i.e. Hispanics) while others are dismissed or harshly criticized (non-Hispanic biracials).

Yeah FG I dont care what anyone chooses to identify with but I do find it annoying when people harp on about a non-black great, great, great grand parent knowing damn well every other grandparent they had thereafter was black. Its stupid to have 3% non-black blood and run around calling yourself mixed

Do you agree with Sapphire about stereotyping – that the film will help to overcome stereotypes rather than strengthen them?

I think it depends on who sees it.

I think we can take it as a given that the “American Heritage” tighty-whitey crowd isn’t going to see this film. Those are the folks who believe the black welfare momma stereotype. So I think that stereotype isn’t going to be reinforced, either way.

Ana and I liked it simply because we thought it showed very concretely how damned hard it is to pull yourself out of a hole. I mean, all that effort, and Precious is STILL looking at a job as a maid – if she’s lucky.

Compare that to, say, “Slum Dog Millionaire” or “City of God” or any of a series of “poverty porn” flicks that have came out recently where a Deus ex machina saves the spunky protagonist who, in one fell swoop, makes it out of the ghetto.

Precious at least shows how hard class is. And given that the U.S. is much more comfortable talking about race than class, we liked it for that reason.

Why are some light skinned individuals (of all races) so determined to seek confirmation that their fantasies about us are true?

Why? Because it makes them feel good about themselves as they perceive themselves as not being as bad off as the people they are looking down on. Keep in mind that it has nothing to do with you as they are the ones with a problem. It’s that old saying; “Misery loves company”. Keep doing what you are doing and damn the lot of them. You do-not have to conform to their perceptions of you. That is their loss, not yours.

although i have no care in the world to see the movie, i am glad its a black person playing all these roles. I mean they could have done one step worse and actually made the characters white. They do it with Shakespeare’s play Othello all the time (although usually in theatre, not sure about film).

To me, when I see a light or dark skinned black, it makes me happy because they are black. At the end of the day, whites don’t care which shade you are, black is black to them and they hate every one of us the same.

I don’t know if it is some kind of “light skinned” privilege I have as a light skinned black/biracial to be thinking that way. I always assumed all blacks were at least half way satisfied when it was a black regardless of shade over a white person.

Although I do understand why people would be upset with this movie if the shade is changed. I was thinking about how they changed Vivien’s race on Fresh Prince. And then yesterday I was watching the History Channel’s documentary about America (an 8 parter) and on the segment Division, Frederick Douglass’s race somehow went from being light (biracial/Halle Berry tone) to dark skinned black.

In those 2 cases you would think they would be especially careful about skin tone!

This is the way white supremacy has worked all across the Americas and we all know it. Some countries, like Brazil and Haiti, recognize colorism and incorporate it openly into their racism (and anti-racism). Others, like the U.S., like to pretend that there’s one big binary division between white and non- and never the twain shall meet.

That American myth, however, doesn’t prevent things like the “paper bag” rule from occuring, however. It results in light-skinned brown people being the public face of black wealth, success and beauty, 9 out of 10 times. It’s as real a social phenomenon as any other racist structure you care to name.

Let’s face it and be real: people like Mariah Carey can “pass” for white anywhere except possibly rural Alabama – and even that’s changing. and, when they want to, they can suddenly raise up their sacred PoC banner and take sides with the oppressed.

That’s a pretty nice and comfortable position to be in and it differs qualitatively and massively from the position of a woman who looks like Gabourey Sidibe, even if she were iconically feminine and beautiful.

All the “PoC are one” rhetoric in the world is not going to change that simple social fact.

It results in light-skinned brown people being the public face of black wealth, success and beauty, 9 out of 10 times.

Perhaps it is the “market” I live in, but this is not the case at least for wealth and success.

Perhaps that is because of Oprah, John H. Johnson(Johnson Publishing Co.), Robert L. Johnson(BET) and Reginald Lewis(Beatrice Foods). These are and were some of the really rich Black folk, not celebrities. So in Forbes magazine ads or the investment ads on TV, you don’t see actors or models who look like Harold Ford Jr.

I understand that all blacks regardless of shade experience racism and discrimination, however just because the cast is all “black” I’m not going to overlook the fact that in movies like Precious, darkskinned blacks are often portrayed in a extremely negative light while lightskinned blacks are not. That is not what I call being treated equally. Since blacks in general are often seen as stereotypes and judged accordingly, its important that both light and dark skinned blacks are seen in a more positive light.

@HerneithWhy are some light skinned individuals (of all races) so determined to seek confirmation that their fantasies about us are true?

Why? Because it makes them feel good about themselves as they perceive themselves as not being as bad off as the people they are looking down on. Keep in mind that it has nothing to do with you as they are the ones with a problem. It’s that old saying; “Misery loves company”. Keep doing what you are doing and damn the lot of them. You do-not have to conform to their perceptions of you. That is their loss, not yours.

You took the words right out of my mouth. I really enjoy reading your comments. Do you have a blog?

I agree there is no “shade” that has it worse. Well technically, research has shown that the very lightest Blacks and the very darkest Blacks suffer the most, so you could say that the extremes face the most extreme forms of colorism. However, I break down colorism this way (in no particular order):

Obviously, you can change groups (maybe one day you feel specifically discriminated against, but you see it as a one-time occurrence), but I think on both sides there are a) people who have legitimate grievances in groups 2 or 4 and b) a lot more people who anticipate discrimination, thereby deliberately placing themselves in groups 2 or 4, then using that as an excuse to be part of groups 1 or 3. The “problem of colorism”, as a general topic, has been ingrained in Blacks so much that we are trained to expect discrimination even before it happens and be prepared to retaliate. The people looking for an excuse to be colorist are usually really loud about all of the bad things light skinned/dark skinned people have done to them, but they never get around to explaining how that gives them an excuse to do the same thing. I think with women it’s worse, since there’s an underlying competition for male attention.

You said, “Contrary to many LIES/ MYTHS, being a light/white skinned Puerto Rican (or other Latino group) does not mean you’re WHITE.”

There are a lot of Puerto Ricans who are White and identify as such in Puerto Rico. However, when in the U.S, because it is not “cool” to be White, will say, “I’m not White, I’m Puerto Rican! (As if having a nationality implies some racial classification. I.E. I’m Brazilian; therefore, I’m not White.)

Granted, If I understand correctly, you are simply pointing out that many Puerto Ricans are multiracial.

Yours is one of the more honest statements I’ve seen on the subject of colorism. Usually, when this subject comes up people break their necks to shut it down completely or make some disingenuous statement like “Are we still talking about this in 2010?” It’s both amusing & tragic how resistant people are to this discussion.

I hope this is not off topic, but I find this subject a little ironic since the great Lena Horne died today. She was a fair skinned black woman that experienced racism and also fought for civil rights.

On the the View this morning, Whoopie brought up that back in the day when blacks were not allowed to move in to Beverly Hills, she was almost kicked out of her home because the whites in her neighborhood put together a petition to get her out. Humphrey Bogart was the only one that spoke up for her and that in one movie, she lost a part to Ava Gardner only to have Ava Gardner use her makeup in the movie, possibly to look like Lena Horne.

She is further proof that no matter what shade of black you are, you will still experience racism, it is just different forms of racism. I am dark skinned black woman with natural hair, but I refuse to let anyone pit me against anyone (especially another black woman) because of her skin tone. I think people believe that all dark skinned black women are insecure and do not like fair black women and that is not true. We need to break out of that.

I am sorry if I went a little of topic, but while I believe that Paula Patton did a great job, she is a wonderful actress and a beautiful black woman, the part would have carried a little more significance of they could have given this part to an equally beautiful dark skinned black woman, with dreads to really get the point across about this movie was trying to accomplish.

In my initial comment, I wrote:
“…reminds me of the colourism I’ve been facing all my life (not necessarily from my own race)…. Why are some light skinned individuals (of all races) so determined to seek confirmation that their fantasies about us are true?…”

If you had not noticed, I was referring to SOME light skinned individuals OF ALL RACES, who feel the need to pity darker blacks and assume things about us even before getting to know us as individuals. I definitely get this attitude from other races far more than from light skinned blacks, because, as you pointed out, light skinned blacks have been around dark skinned blacks all their lives. I totally agree with you on this; most light skinned blacks that I’ve known do not give me this patronising, pitying attitude, nor do they assume unkind things about me (though there have been instances, in my current college even). I definitely don’t have ill feelings towards them.

Also, I certainly don’t believe that I’m being paranoid, or that I’m projecting my own fantasies onto others. People have been fairly clear when expressing their assumptions about me. Some people are sick enough to smile smugly while telling me unflattering things about my background. I often get a jaw drop when I (politely) correct someone and let them know that I make pretty decent grades in school, or that I don’t live in a ghetto, etc. At this point, the other person becomes much less friendly than before. They seemed happier and more smug when they believed the worst about me. I was not hallucinating these conversations.

I guess what I should have made clearer in my initial comment was why the picture at the top makes me depressed. I’m not coming from a place of jealousy or bitterness towards light skinned blacks. I really couldn’t care less if they are portrayed well (good for them, I say!). I’m just tired of all the images in the media which associate dark skin with pitiful circumstances, be it black movies like Precious, or starving children in Africa, or even slums in India. I wish people in the media would stop feeding the fantasy, and stop exploiting dark skinned people in this manner to further their careers. And I wish some people would stop trying to turn me into their real-life poverty porn, just because of the colour of my skin.

Lynette says,
I didn’t make this statement to upset anyone, but we don’t have to cringe every time we see Blacks shown in an undesirable way. It is not a reflection on any of us. Also, it is not a secret that people from lower socioeconomic communities have greater hardships. In essence, people do not have to sit and watch a movie to observe the problems that plague Blacks in lower socioeconomic communities.

laromana,
Lynette, I don’t disagree with the main point you’re trying to make but feel that until BP in American media are presented in a more balanced manner (ie. relatively equal amounts of POSITIVE vs. NEGATIVE images) and MOST NON-BLACK Americans learn to view BP as individuals (not NEGATIVE STEREOTYPES), movies like Precious do more harm than good.

I was thinking about Lena Horne too, and was saddened about her passing, it pissed me off so much when one forum used her death to not only get upset over the mere mentioning of the racism she had to deal with (these were white people as usual being dismissive of racism) but then some whites were using her as an excuse to be racist towards blacks.

i don’t get why white people forget that after slavery, Jim Crow happened and that people from that time are still alive and were largely affected by it and it was part of their life. To ignore that part is to ignore their trials and tribulations.

good point laromana, good point. i agree we need BALANCE we never get to see positive images of bp and when we do, its always viewed as outside the norm…not normal…btw lynette in that picture you look a bit like jurnee smollett

Yeah its about balance…I dont wish to see blacks portrayed as angels because black people arent angelic, we are human like all other peoples and we have failures and rejects among us. Its just get tiring when “niggativity” gets promoted over positivity… It seems like films such as Boomerang always get downplayed in favor of black dysfunction, drama, hyper-sexuality ect. Just look at the black people that won Oscars and what kind of characters they played in their winning roles…. That alone tells me a lot

@AlwaysrightYeah but most of us light skinned don’t pass. Mariah isn’t just black and white so that is why she could pass but Halle, Alicia, Obama, are all clearly people of color and suffer racism just the same.

You misunderstand: I’m not arguing about passing only. Mariah can pass. But – just as the old saw I cited above warns us – even if you can’t pass, it’s better to be lighter than darker in a racist society. Racism indeed exists across the spectrum, but it doesn’t hit equally.

I think its going too far at least by 2010 standards to say that the face of black people is strictly light skinned.

Strictly? No. Lighter, the vast majority of the time? Yes.

Every time Ana and I are up in the States, we collect imagery of this stuff in ads and black magazines. It seems to me that this sort of thing is real obvious to Brazilians, who are trained to perceive it from birth on. It’s also pretty obvious to very dark black Americans. It is – mysteriously – less obvious to lighter-skinned black Americans, who generally seem to only see “light” when it’s someone like Halle Berry.

You seem to think Oprah is exceptionally dark. Look at Oprah and look at Gabourey and tell me who’s darker:

I think Black people should be done with how a movie like “Precious” would reflect on us. Black people have been striving for generations to uplift our image and now when white folk see you at work, the Presidents family or a student who has honors, it is still seen as anomaly.

“Every time Ana and I are up in the States, we collect imagery of this stuff in ads and black magazines. It seems to me that this sort of thing is real obvious to Brazilians, who are trained to perceive it from birth on. It’s also pretty obvious to very dark black Americans. It is – mysteriously – less obvious to lighter-skinned black Americans, who generally seem to only see “light” when it’s someone like Halle Berry.”

From reading this blog, it also seems like the saliency of the colorism issue depends greatly on gender. Women seem much more concerned about it than men.

Colorism is a big symbol in the movie. I haven’t read the novel. I assume its intentional, but I don’t know. Interesting, because this is the way a lot of whites (and color struck blacks) think of black people. The dark ones are degenerates, criminals, poor. The light ones are good.

People of course have their misconceptions about whites too. For instance, there are plenty of impoveished white folk in the US; however, they are often hidden from view. They do not typically live in the inner cities, but in the suburbs in trailer homes. In appalachia, they are desperately poor. White america will never show this side it seems.

The vast majority of light-skinned people I know (in more than name) are related to me, and the vast majority of very dark-skinned people I know (in more than name) are also related to me, so my family wouldn’t tolerate any of that. I guess I’m in that vast middle category,and I’ve never known either a) lots of stuck up light-skinned girls or b) lots of bitter dark-skinned girls. I don’t doubt that those people exist, but I would think that one would need more than one standout example to make a case for “who has it worse”. I notice that when you cut people off from talking in generalities and ask them to give specific examples of colorist things people have done to them, few can name more than one or two. That doesn’t make any sense–if I railed against every group that had at least one person in it who’d pissed me off, I’d dislike everyone! 🙂

I actually think there are a lot of parallels between the light/dark issue and the fat/skinny issue, the main one being that most of the controversy comes out of fighting over men.

Monique appears to be the shade of most Blacks. I wouldn’t say she is a dark skinned Black woman

(This is my opinion)

I agree that Monique appears to be the shade of most blacks so in other words she like most blacks are of a dark complexion. When Monique travels the world I believe most people of any race would veiw her as dark instead of light. I am around the same shade as Monique and I consider myself as dark skinned. I dont believe a person must be undenialbly dark to be considered as such. I understand some people prefer the term brown skinned but unfortunately some (not anyone here) use that “I’m not dark I’m brownskinned” saying as an excuse to look down on the undenialbly dark or people who are darker than themselves which is not cool. Lee Daniels is a good example.

I went on vacation with a couple of “girl friends” to Jamaica and one of the women made a comment that went

“I’m going to stay out the sun, I don’t want to get too dark, no offense G-Ball”. Now mind you, this women if she is lighter than me is no more than a shade or two lighter, but I guess she has told herself in her mind that I am so much darker than her. It doesn’t matter because I love my dark skin, but that will be last vacation I go with them!

I always considered Oprah and Monique to be the color of the average black American.

Please no one get mad at me for saying this, but I have always considered the average black american to be the skin tone of regular Hershey’s milk chocolate (yes I use food as comparisons and i usually consider myself peanut butter)

I think that since the vast majority of Blacks have “red” undertones (the lightest people have yellow and the darkest have violet), most of us can look about the same in the right light. To me, Regina King, Michelle Obama, Monique, Vivica Fox, Gabrielle Union, and a myriad of other famous Black females all look about the same color to me.

i am curious if skin tone can change naturally on its own. one minute i can have this yellow looking tone the next minute i have a red tone…and i know when i get weak or malnourished i have a pale whiteness to me…i one time freaked this other biracial girl out when she said i looked close to white, i had to explain to her that i hadn’t eaten yet and was weak from not eating so i looked pale.

Yeah I have heard people say that to…almost like its some type of offense to be called dark instead of brown… A little weird if you ask me.

I was watching the Bad Girls Club on oxygen and one of the black girls was trying to hook up with a white guy. He said to her “I love you dark skin” (or something like that) and she immediately piped up and said “Im not dark Im bronze!!” I was like WTF… weird

I have mixed feelings about this movie. I thought it was good, but ridiculous. Just so stereotypical, yet relatable. The movie did seem like a documentary as if there was no acting. I think the important message and issues in the movie are being overshadowed by the focus being on Sidibe’s appearance. Incest, rape, verbal, emotional abuse that take place in the community but people want to brush over those issues because we’re so caught up in the superficiality of light skin/dark skin bs.

actually i happen to like the movie. yes it was disturbing in a lot of ways but hey situations like that exist in everyday life. young girls getting by family members, which i think is a sick thing to do. kind of had a feeling that people weren’t going to like it because how it’s portray but i don’t think it was another stereotypical movie we’re used to seeing everyday. monique played the hell out of her role, although i don’t care for her like that but she did one hell of a job.

Alwaysright sez:I always considered Oprah and Monique to be the color of the average black American.

Look at them. REALLY look at them. They are not at all the same color. A Brazilian recognizes this instantly. An American seems to have trouble.

I’m not supporting Brazil’s view of color/race over the U.S.’ here, btw: I AM trying to show how they are pretty damned different from one another.

i am curious if skin tone can change naturally on its own.

Of course it can. Exposure to envionmental factors darkens or lightens it on its own and different light qualities does the same. This is why when “black” celebrities want to be “lightened”, they have themselves shot in straight-on klieg lights.

i am not referring to light changing my skin tone. i know light can do that. i am referring to how you can stay inside and do nothing different in routine and your skin can look different than it did an hour earlier.

its not a problem of black americans not being able to distinguish between oprah and monique’s skin tone, its more of a problem that Brazilians find need in trying to distinguish everyone’s skin tone for whatever reason.

“Let’s face it and be real: people like Mariah Carey can “pass” for white anywhere except possibly rural Alabama – and even that’s changing.”

One could easily come to the conclusion that this is Mariah’s goal: to look as white as possible. Because in her original state, with dark, curly hair and button nose, she most certainly could not be mistaken for white.

alwaysright101,

“I always considered Oprah and Monique to be the color of the average black American.”

I think they are. I once saw these composite pictures made from photos of black Americans taken from all over the U.S., and the color was a solid brown color e.g. Oprah or Monique.

“Please no one get mad at me for saying this, but I have always considered the average black american to be the skin tone of regular Hershey’s milk chocolate (yes I use food as comparisons and i usually consider myself peanut butter)”

Lol. I do too. I’m the color of flan [de leche].

“its not a problem of black americans not being able to distinguish between oprah and monique’s skin tone, its more of a problem that Brazilians find need in trying to distinguish everyone’s skin tone for whatever reason.”

I do find this quite curious. I used to go to this Brazilian car wash and the women I used to chat with there always felt the need to tell me I would not be considered black in Brazil.

Y says,
Its just get tiring when “niggativity” gets promoted over positivity… It seems like films such as Boomerang always get downplayed in favor of black dysfunction, drama, hyper-sexuality ect. Just look at the black people that won Oscars and what kind of characters they played in their winning roles…. That alone tells me a lot

Paisley says,
But then you’d have to know what races you actually are.

There are “whites” with unknown/hidden black ancestry, and blacks who have heard family legends that the fair skin, hairy flesh and green eyes of certain relatives comes from having “indian blood”.

laromana says,
Paisley, I understand your point but I’m referring to people who KNOW they are part Black, for instance, but can “pass” for White and try to pretend that because they “appear” to be White, they are ACTUALLY ONLY White and NOT Black AT ALL.

The same goes for people who are part White and part Black and try to DENY this part of their identity just because OTHERS (mostly ANTI-BLACK RACISTS/ANTI-WHITE RACISTS) don’t want to acknowledge/accept this part of their identity.

its not a problem of black americans not being able to distinguish between oprah and monique’s skin tone, its more of a problem that Brazilians find need in trying to distinguish everyone’s skin tone for whatever reason.

I would say that it’s more a question of Brazilians ADMITTING they do this while Americans like to play pretend.

“laromana says,
Paisley, I understand your point but I’m referring to people who KNOW they are part Black, for instance, but can “pass” for White and try to pretend that because they “appear” to be White, they are ACTUALLY ONLY White and NOT Black AT ALL.”

That is a tough call. I have met several “Whites” who I assummed were always White. (Army, University,etc… and forget about Brazil – they’re just white.) The Americans never denied their Black heritage. I will tell you this though: All the Blacks in our peer groups treated them as White. They never knew they were Black unles the subject about family or heritage came up. In another thread I gave an example (which I will give again) about a fellow soldier getting ridculed by a bunch of our Black peers for saying he was part Black. When he produced a picture of his mother, the ridicule did not stop. Accusations started that he was lying and that really wasn’t his mother!!!

Ok….sooooo colourism is definitely true, but I also find it funny how ppl focus too hard on it in this particular movie to tell whatever story they want to (they have alternative motives sometimes to preach hate, ignorance, and excuses-not saying the person who wrote this has those intentions). Mariah is light and she didn’t start out as the nicest person to Precious. She could’ve dug more into her job and helped her long before she did. I’m not sure if I believe that Paula wasn’t the best actress, for the amount they were willing to pay, for the job (or just overall). Same for Lenny Kravitz (and the fact that they know ppl who would be willing to put them in a movie and because of the movie content they wanted to be a part of it) I believe that making a big focus of the film about colourism constantly encourages division between light and dark blacks…and it gives dark skinned ppl a reason to attack lights for being born what they are without addressing their self hate of themselves and their dark skin.

But this movie isn’t that great at all. Especially if you read the book. The book was amazing. This movie was different, just like alot of those (movies) that came out this past year and received Oscar nods. That doesn’t make them the best thing ever. But it does encourage screenwriters/directors to think outside the box and tell stories that haven’t been told.

As for Monique, though I’m happy she receievd an Oscar, ’cause it’s a great accomplishment, I don’t think it was worthy, but the girl in ‘Up in the Air’ didn’t deserve an Oscar either. And the other two films I didn’t see, so I wouldn’t know if I felt they where deserving of an Oscar. I’m not a Black person who believes that just because they’re Black they should receive an Oscar.

Blind spot was actually really good. But the reality of it is sad. Ppl would pay to see this movie, but if it had been a Black family instead of White, no one would have gone, INCLUDING BLACK PPL. So don’t blame Whites for telling their side of a story from their point of view. If a Black person wanting to tell this story, then they should’ve and Blacks should support them when they do. BTW, this was based on a true story… sooooo Y r ppl so upset??? His story shouldn’t be told because YOU don’t agree? Nuts!

Col says,
That is a tough call. I have met several “Whites” who I assummed were always White. (Army, University,etc… and forget about Brazil – they’re just white.) The Americans never denied their Black heritage. I will tell you this though: All the Blacks in our peer groups treated them as White. They never knew they were Black unles the subject about family or heritage came up. In another thread I gave an example (which I will give again) about a fellow soldier getting ridculed by a bunch of our Black peers for saying he was part Black. When he produced a picture of his mother, the ridicule did not stop. Accusations started that he was lying and that really wasn’t his mother!!!

laromana says,
I detest when anyone chooses to mock a person for stating their ACTUAL racial identity just because THEY don’t think it fits THEIR PRECONCEIVED NOTION of how a person from that racial group should appear.

I still believe a person should be able to own their ACTUAL RACIAL identity REGARDLESS of whether OTHERS are ready to accept it or not.

I went on vacation with a couple of “girl friends” to Jamaica and one of the women made a comment that went

“I’m going to stay out the sun, I don’t want to get too dark, no offense G-Ball”. Now mind you, this women if she is lighter than me is no more than a shade or two lighter, but I guess she has told herself in her mind that I am so much darker than her. It doesn’t matter because I love my dark skin, but that will be last vacation I go with them!”

Yeah that’s the kind of nonsense I’m referring to. Just like when I read the comment where Lee Daniels said that before he did Precious he used to be prejudiced against people darker than himself. I looked up his picture and was like WTF!

Has this fool looked at himself in the mirror? Does he not know that he is the color of most blacks and that color is dark skinned? So when this fool was looking down on people he was looking down on those only a couple of shades darker than himself. He might aswell just look down on himself!! The part that kills me is while people like him are busy looking down on other blacks the whole entire world just about is doing the same to HIM. I dont care how many films he direct this guy sounds like a self hater and his stereotypical films are doing nothing but hurting our image by reinforcing negative stereotypes.

The bronze girl I assume you are referring to is the one I mentioned, and if so, I definitely agree with you.

The women I went with are related, a niece and aunt and they make comments that like this all the time. Not necessarily directed at me, but towards darker skinned women. Mind you, they never say anything bad about dark skinned men, just women.

I notice that they love to make comments on how ugly India Irie and Alek Wek is, but the lighter skinned women I never hear negative comments about.

Not to make a generalization, but they are both from the deep south and I wonder if this has anything to do with it. I also notice that with them and like many others, it is ok for men to be dark, but some people can be downright rude and evil when it comes to dark women. I have had a number of people say they believed I was evil because of my skin complexion.

It took me a long time to recover from all of the negative comments I have heard since I was a child, and sometimes it still stings, but my self-esteem has improved tremendously as I have gotten older. I do distance myself from people with this type of mentality because I do not care to have this type of poison in my space.

Ok, getting back to the movie, I believe this has type of reasoning was the reason so many had a problem with the movie. As I said before, I like Paula Patton, but the point would have been driven home to love yourself no matter what skin complexion you are if the woman was protrayed the way she was described in the book.

Think of how this movie could have had a positive impact on young black girls who are living the life of a “Precious” and needed this type of reinforcement of self-love. I know I could have used it when I was growing up listening to the constant names of black this and black that by relatives, classmates and strangers. The most hurtful prejudice I have experienced has been, unfortunately, among my own people — not that I have not gotten it from white people too.

You nailed that on the head. You are right. You will never see beautiful, darker black women in American films because whites are comfortable believing that darker black women are unattractive. You either see overweight black women or if they are very pretty, they are light skinned. I noticed that in the 70’s, there were many attractive darker skinned women on television or in films but that is no longer the case. Like I said before, blacks should refuse to go to movies like Precious. We should try to endorse movies that promote positive images of black women. Africans Americans don’t realize that we have power. By boycotting certain movies, certain kinds of music, and other sources of entertainment that supposedly represent black people, we are telling those people that controll the media that we won’t put up with colorism or racism any more.

I detest when anyone chooses to mock a person for stating their ACTUAL racial identity just because THEY don’t think it fits THEIR PRECONCEIVED NOTION of how a person from that racial group should appear.

I’m still trying to get my head around this phrase. Would someone please help me out here and tell me what an “actual racial identity” is?

Because as far as I can see, there is no such animal.

Biology does not allow us to divide people into nice, neat races. Certainly, you having one black greatgrandparent out of eight doesn’t prove anything “real” or “actual” in terms of your presumptive race.

As for social definitions of race, these are always – always, always, always – made up of two irreducable categories: what YOU say you are and what OTHERS say you are.

Sad but true: in the identity game, your opinion weighs no more than the opinion of everyone else.

So where is this “actual” race business situated? In your genes? Not. In your opinion? Not. In the opinion of others? Not.

Are lanomara and CoL proposing some sort of essential and spiritual “racial essence” here?

“laromana says,
I detest when anyone chooses to mock a person for stating their ACTUAL racial identity just because THEY don’t think it fits THEIR PRECONCEIVED NOTION of how a person from that racial group should appear.

I still believe a person should be able to own their ACTUAL RACIAL identity REGARDLESS of whether OTHERS are ready to accept it or not.”

Whether racial identity and dragonhood are pertinent concepts is irrelevant here. This is the pressure imposed upon an indivial in order to mold into a specific shape through mockery, this is what is revolting .. at least for laromana.

I agree with Thad about “how social identity works”. There’s no such things as someone’s “real” or actual racial identity.

On the other hand, this is another example of Thad’s splitting hair derailment approach he loves to use. We all know what laromana wanted to say, especially regarding the example Color of Luv used: Somebody out there didn’t believe a guy’s mother was black because he didn’t fit their stereotype of what a person with a black mother should look like. These people believe THEY know better what a person with a black mother looks (or should look), and they take a liberty to ridicule a guy with a black mother and not believe his words. Why would anybody lie about their mother in the first place?

My point, Mira, isn’t that they guy should or shouldn’t have been believed: my point is that I disagree with the notion that what he says he is is his “real” or “actual” identity.

Which is why I didn’t disagree with your comment about identity- I just stated it’s another example of your “splitting hair” style. We are not in the classroom, Thad. I bet you know what laromana wanted to say and still, you refuse to discuss it. Instead of that, you point at a scientific inconsistency in her comments.

As for people lying about their mothers and other family members, they do it all the time. Just take a look at RR here who claims to be “black”.

I believe the rules here state that we should never question what commenters write about their personal life. In theory, Thad, you might be a black woman living in Australia, but I assume you are who you claim to be. I do that for other people here, and I guess I’m not the only one. If RR says he’s black, he’s black and he’s a “he” to me.

We are not in the classroom, Thad. I bet you know what laromana wanted to say and still, you refuse to discuss it.

No, actually I don’t know what laromara wants to say. She seems to be saying two things: that she believes that a person’s “real” identity to be whatever the say it is and she also seems to be reiterating a belief in hypodescendency: i.e. that the guy is “really” black because he has a black ancestor.

That’s what’s attracting my attention: the concept that “black” as a racial identity, is infinitely infectious and that even a guy who looks white is “really” black if he has a black ancestor.

If RR says he’s black, he’s black and he’s a “he” to me.

Sorry, I don’t believe it and I think that it’s crazy to presume that everything everyone says about their personal life is correct simply because they say it. RR has consistently and constantly claimed that blacks – all blacks – are less intelligent, more criminal and more violent than whites, and yet he himself is black?

This is a trolling technique, Mira, and it uses the rules of the site to try to disrupt the site. In this case then, rules are meant to be broken.

We have also seen at least with one other how they have depicted themselves bears no reflection to reality.

Personally, I think it is best to be a bit like a forensic scientist, piecing together the clues: words, writing style, sympathies etc, to create or come to an overall impression of what an individual commentator may or may not be like, and not what they claim to be.

Ok, then I guess I’m alone in my thinking. The point is, I don’t have time or energy to play Sherlock Holmes in deciding whether a person is telling the truth. I just assume what someone is saying about his or her personal life is true (this goes for gender, race, nationality and age). I don’t seek proofs on these claims.

Of course, what person says about gender, race, etc. does, a bit, influence the way I see this person: learning X was, in fact, a man instead of a woman or French instead of American or white instead of black, etc- might make me see this person and his/her posts in a different light. But until that is revealed, I take their personal info as the truth.

J, I agree with forming your opinion on somebody. But I still take what people say about them as the truth.

I’m glad to see that I was not the only one who noticed the complexions of all the “good” people in this movie! I picked up on that just from the commercials alone. I refused to go see this movie. In my opinion it has a “mighty whitey to the rescue” theme to it (although the “whites” technically aren’t white.).

Merrimay please say it again “here we go again with the colourism!” Honestly I am Canadian-Caribbean and am thus am not entirely familiar with American views about race and skintone but I can tell you that growning up in Ajax,ON, a small suburb outside Toronto, and being one of three black kids in my entire grade DID NOT MAKE ME WANT TO BE WHITE!

I have black skin and black features and really I don’t have an issue with this because HELLO…I AM BLACK!

My mother taught me to love myself and accept my differences. My race is something I take for granted. I understand it is DIFFERENT… but it is only bad when you begin to think of it that way.

Stop accepting everything that the MEDIA tells you is wrong with you and love yourself.

And quite frankly I really expected this blog, that caters specifically to a contemporary and somewhat educated black audience, to discontinue its use of stereotypical, Eurocentric and not to mention ancient theories of race and beauty.

Black people are the ones perpetuating this stereotype more than anyone. When you stop it will stop.

I agree w/ Lynette (as always-lol), there are many Preciouses out there. I see them everyday. I went to school with them. Hell, I even have relatives who have shades of Precious in them. We all do. These stories should be told.

But I do think they could be told in a better way. The film adapation of Push wasn’t completely successful in translating the book into cellouid IMO. It wasn’t terrible but not the triumph the liberal press tried to hype it as. The book was far superior as is the case with most film adaptions of literature.

I think it should be noted that Carey and Kravitz, two musicians, are good friends with Lee Daniels. Precious is a small-scale indie flick. They were doing their friend (Daniels) a favor by starring in the film for a low fee. While colorism may have been a subconscious factor in some of the film’s casting, I do think “friends doing each other favors” was the main catalyst behind the faces we saw in the film.

I think some people see more colorism in the film than may have been intended because of their own views on race and color. Remember, one of my suggested tips on eradicating color prejudice is to examine our own views on skin color.

Like Lynette, I didn’t see “light skinned or dark skinned” when I initially saw Precious. People pointed it out. I also don’t think Mo’s potrayal of Precious’ abusive mother was a “bad character”. Everyone in the film was pretty flawed.

Now onto color…lol.

Ok, Ms. Patton would ever be seen as white ANYWHERE in the U.S. Although views of racial phenotype are completely subjective and vary from person to person. I didn’t know Patton had a white parent until I read a cover story on her in Giant magazine. I just thought she was a Creole type (she’s from LA…where many Creoles migrated).

I don’t agree with a previous poster saying that whites would “never” allow a beautiful “dark skinned” black woman to be recognized. Lauryn Hill, Naomi Simms and Campbell, Iman, Jennifer Hudson and former Miss USA Kenya Moore amongst many others had no problem being spotlighted by the mainstream. Most recently, Zoe Saldana has been H-Wood’s “it black girl.” Before her, Taraji Henson and Gabrielle Union had that title. (H-Wood is very transient). I understand that colorism exists in factors of the entertainment world but it annoys me when some people try to play down the many achievements of black women in that world. Give the sisters some credit sometimes!!! LOL.

Thad, lol. Obviously not since there are no “black,” “white,” etc genes. This seems to come as a surprise to people, but your race is not embedded in your genetic code.

That reminds me: I was looking at my old biology work from college and I came across some karyotypes we studied in a genetics class. I tried to figure out which ones were “black,” which ones were “white,” etc, but to no avail. All I could tell is if they were biologically male or female, and if they had any chromosomal abnormalities.

The bronze girl I assume you are referring to is the one I mentioned, and if so, I definitely agree with you.

I was referring to the girl Y mentioned but the same goes for the person you was referring to also.

The women I went with are related, a niece and aunt and they make comments that like this all the time. Not necessarily directed at me, but towards darker skinned women.

If you haven’t already the next time they say something negative about darkskinned women confront them tell them how you really feel. Let them know that eventhough they are not talking about you specifically it feels that way and its more offensive hearing it from them because they are your family.

Mind you, they never say anything bad about dark skinned men, just women.

I’ve notice this too. From what I read on the internet people tend to associate dark skin with masculinity. Its an insult.

I notice that they love to make comments on how ugly India Irie and Alek Wek is, but the lighter skinned women I never hear negative comments about.

To me neither of theses women are ugly. People tend to pick on Alek Wek and India Arie because they don’t fit into this European standard of beauty that society tries to force on everyone. Alek Wek is from Sudan I believe. What do people expect her to look like, a damn White woman or something!

Not to make a generalization, but they are both from the deep south and I wonder if this has anything to do with it.

Yes I live in the south and I notice alot of the older people are colorist here and they tend to pass the ignorance down to the younger generation.

It took me a long time to recover from all of the negative comments I have heard since I was a child, and sometimes it still stings, but my self-esteem has improved tremendously as I have gotten older. I do distance myself from people with this type of mentality because I do not care to have this type of poison in my space.

I’m sorry that you had those experiences as a child. I’ve had my share of colorism as a child also. I do think its best to distance yourself from people like that. You especially don’t those type of people around your children or future children. I’m glad your self esteem has improve.

As I said before, I like Paula Patton, but the point would have been driven home to love yourself no matter what skin complexion you are if the woman was protrayed the way she was described in the book.

I agree. While I like Paula Patton and think shes really pretty I don’t think she can truly relate to a dark skin woman all she can do is sympathize. She don’t have the same experiences as us and she also don’t face the same criticism and struggles some of us face for having dark skin. It would have meant more to me if a beautiful dark skinned woman with natural hair would have lead by example and reached out to Precious and showed Precious that you don’t have to be light or white in order to be “precious”.
Also it would have showed a message to dark skinned women that we don’t need a “mighty whitey” character to help us. We can to do it on our own. I know when I was facing colorism or discrimination a mighty whitey didn’t come save me I was on my own. Also a dark skinned women would have sent a better message that dark skinned women need to embrace and support each other.
When I was a little girl I wished I would have had a dark skinned woman that I could relate to who could have better understood what I was going through.

Think of how this movie could have had a positive impact on young black girls who are living the life of a “Precious” and needed this type of reinforcement of self-love. I know I could have used it when I was growing up listening to the constant names of black this and black that by relatives, classmates and strangers.

I agree. All the movie Precious did was reinforce negative stereotypes. In my younger days this movie would have done notihing positive for my self esteem. If anything this movie made me realise even more that people get their kicks from stereotyping dark skinned black women as fat, poor, on welfare, “unattractive” and lazy.

The most hurtful prejudice I have experienced has been, unfortunately, among my own people

Sad but true. It was the black community who gave me the most criticism for my kinky hair.

Yes I have heard people associate dark skin with masculine. It is very insulting, however its not until I started getting really involved in the internet, reading blogs and doing the YouTube thing until I found this out. I must say it did kinda mess with my head at first. I kinda feel stupid for second guessing myself about BS I read on the internet. I never in my life have been told I am ugly because I have dark skin or I am “manlier” than light black girls or non-black women. Its all foolish people using dark skin=masculine to prop up themselves will denigrating others. Im sure there are people is real life that hold that belief dear but for the most part I steer clear of those people. A lot what we read on the internet is a combination of archaic, colorist stereotypes and internet trolls tryna start sh*t.

Because I am into fitness, I have heard the masculine comparisons, I don’t know if this also has to do with my dark skin because I did not hear these comments until I started really working out (usually from fat women!)

I have been told that I was evil or that all dark complexioned black women are evil and that’s why a lot of black men will not date them. I also noticed that some black men will try to use dark skinned black women for sex and nothing else — like hide the fact that he is attracted to her, but marry a light skinned woman. I also distance myself from men who think I should be honored that they date me because as they put it, “I usually don’t date dark skinned women, but you are an exception”. This is a red flag, no brainer, done deal as far as taking the relationship any further. A matter of fact, it is a complete turn-off when a man says he likes only dark skinned women too as I feel as if they are insulting my lighter skinned sisters. I have more respect for men who just can appreciate beauty in any color, shape or size as God I believe is really fair with beauty as there are some many different types of beauty. I understand a preference, but some just go out their way to be insulting.

How is it to be a dark-skinned black woman? I’m fairly new to colorism; I was just never aware of it because my family and close friends rarely discussed color. I’m only now realizing that many darker-skinned black women feel others see their color as a negative. Do you know any blogs, articles, etc, that talk about this?

Porsche,
I agree. I never gave my skintone a second thought until I started reading blogs, especially Afro American or in real life, exposure to Afro Caribbean folks in London! Surprisingly with Africans it’s almost a non issue. Like you, I lived in Canada as a kid, usually the only black face in my class. I honestly do not understand the colorism issue with black people, but then again I’m not American.
Why do I find comfort in the fact that at least with whites my blackness is not in question. Yet within my own race, how I’m treated is determined somewhat by my skintone.
Sad.

I’m like you; I never really thought about skin tone until I started frequenting the blogs. But do you think that maybe the reason you never gave your skin tone a second thought is because you are relatively ligher-skinned? Similar to how whites never give racism a second thought, and they are shocked when they come here and read posts? I don’t know if the issue is as big as it is portrayed to be on the blogs, but I want to know more.

Please dont let the internet affect how you all feel about yourselves…

Let real life be your mirror…..

Like you all have said, there are so many trolls and provoking issues pushed to the limint, because people can hide behind computor screens and spew their own frustrations.

On the other hand, you can see things like how much racism really exists. White people will say these racist things you can bet they wouldnt say in real life, but, at least it shows it is in them and exists

It may have more to do with you being into fitness. A lot of women that are deep into health, working out, and some weight training are labeled as “masculine” unless they go the extra mile of trying to be very feminine(ie compensating for their strenuous exercise)

I dont know what those ladies say but Im willing to bet they were just mad/jealous that you are in-charge of your health and they are overweight.

Im Nigerian and from what I see nobody really prizes fairness the way say, Indians or SOME black Americans do. With the exception of hair weaves, 95% of Nollywood actresses have undeniably west African features, and dark skin.

I know my likes to maintian her relatively light skin tone but she doesnt bleach or do anything crazy. Apart from that I know of no African that wishes they were light or things light is better.

There is a family that lives around the way, they are Nigerian too. One day my mother was talking to the wife/mother of that family. My mom told the neighbor that she dropped my brothers off at the pool to swim. She told my mom “Oh my, you take your kids to the pool! The will get too black! I took my daughter to the pool and her skin got dark and never changed back!” She said it as if there was some type of family loss, like a death or something.

My mom thought she was nuts for that statement. These people didnt let their kids go to the pool for fear of them getting “blacker”. The ironic part is the father is dark-skinned!! So its like, if dark-skin is so bad why did you marry the father? Its baffling, my family and I still laugh/SOH about that to this day

As a relatively lighter skinned person as you put it(see I didn’t even know that), I have never felt resented by darker peers AT ALL, none that I am aware of. The most beautiful women I know, Including my own mother are dark. My role models are dark skinned people. I wonder if this light skin/dark skin nonsense is exaggerated to villify darker folks.
I certainly don’t think my path has been smoother due to my color, nope no previleges over here!
Asking me is like the blind leading the blind lol, as I’m just getting aquainted with our friend colorism.

@Y swimming makes you dark??? The chlorine bone-dries my hair but WTH?? Tell em a good rub of shea butter should sort out the dry skin after a swim. As many times as I go to South Africa, I have never heard a black person caution another black about staying out of the sun, that was told to white folks, 40 degree sun fries em LOL

There is no universal “dark skinned woman experience”. LOL. That’s like asking a random black person what life is like as a black person. Everyone’s going to have a different answer. Some of the women who have posted on this board have described serious mental and emotional hardships that they attribute to the shade of their skin. Yet, it’s a bit specious to think they represent every black women’s experience. Remember, we’re all individuals first, everything else second. Environment and up bringing shape how you see the world, not your race/skin color.

I wonder about that too. When you hear all these things about black women in general that is never suggested in real life, it makes you wonder if it isn’t just blown out of proportion so as to breed insecurities. But I’m not sure.

“I certainly don’t think my path has been smoother due to my color, nope no previleges over here!”

I don’t think so either. However light I am, I’m still darker than most white people, and still clearly black.

“There is no universal “dark skinned woman experience”. LOL. That’s like asking a random black person what life is like as a black person. Everyone’s going to have a different answer. “

Oh, I know, I don’t think I suggested that was the case. I just wanted to get firsthand experience (as much as that can be said from reading blogs) to add to my mental list. That’s why I asked for blogs, articles, etc, so I can see how others feel.

Also Natasha if I remember correctly, you’re African as well?? I think because we are a lighter hue we know for a fact it does not come from ANY admixture from other races.
Isn’t that the main premise used to divide American blacks? The Khoisan(I personally know quite a number) probably one of th emost pure blooded people in Africa, spend ages in the blistering sun, they’re nomads after all, yet they wouldn’t be described as ‘dark’. I doubt these people preen and lord their color over say, their alek wek darker African peers! they’re certainly not more attractive.

As an African woman, I truly don’t know what the whole light skin/dark skin brouhaha is about!

MerriMay, yes, I’m a second generation W. African immigrant. But people always assume I’m an African-American in the general sense of the term. And they tell me I have must have white ancestors and the first time I heard this I thought “???” (And now I hear it all the time on the blogs; the indication that light-skinned blacks are that way due to Euro or other admixture). I had to take a couple of genetic tests because it was getting out of control. And nope, no admixture. In fact, my mtDNA is one of the oldest and of course originated in Africa.

And now I hear it all the time on the blogs; the indication that light-skinned blacks are that way due to Euro or other admixture.

I must admit I was guilty as charged here. I always thought African Americans were, on general, lighter because of Euro admixture. Not that I thought all Africans were dark, but I did believe African Americans appear a bit “different” (lighter, different facial features) because of the admixture.

I do not see things this way anymore. So definitely blogs and talking to people first hand (as much as online communication can be seen as “first hand”) help unlearning stereotypes (and learning valuable facts).

Mira, I don’t think African-Americans look very different from W. Africans. Slightly, I think the major/only difference I notice is in face shape. Their skin appears lighter, I believe, largely because they live in the US that has less UV radiation than Africa. I looked at my mother’s old pictures from before she emigrated and her skin was much darker. Same for my father. I’ve noticed the general trend for those in the US to be lighter than their family members in W. Africa, so I can only conclude that is why.

As for features, I don’t know. I don’t really think they appear differently, at least no one can tell the difference between my family and multi-generational black Americans. Every black person in America seems to have a sister or cousin that looks just like me. Lol.

Their skin appears lighter, I believe, largely because they live in the US that has less UV radiation than Africa.

Of course, that’s gotta be the explanation. It makes perfect sense.

As for features, I don’t know. I don’t really think they appear differently, at least no one can tell the difference between my family and multi-generational black Americans.

Well, I guess my only contact with African American was through media. I guess they don’t choose average people to be movie and TV stars. I don’t watch American news so I don’t see “average American people”, black or white.

But generally I am unable to tell who is light and who isn’t, unless two people are standing next to each other.

Their skin appears lighter, I believe, largely because they live in the US that has less UV radiation than Africa.

Of course, that’s gotta be the explanation. It makes perfect sense.

—

The majority of American Blacks have some percentage of European genes and this would most definitely account for the average Black having a somewhat lighter complexion than the average West African.

As a matter of fact there are many West Africans residing in the city where I live. Most have a very, very rich dark brown complexion similar to that of actor Wesley Snipes, if not darker and they tend to stand out because of this. The average American Black is closer to mid brown — nowhere near as dark as Wesley Snipes.

It really shouldn’t be seen as an insult to either West Africans or US Blacks when Black Americans are described as looking somewhat different or being somewhat lighter in complexion than West Africans. Many white American don’t look exactly like their European counterparts — for one thing, few Europeans have Native American ancestry, but it’s quite common among whites in the south and southwest regions of the US. And what’s more, many American whites are a actually a blend of several Euro ethnicities plus the popular but thinly stretched “Cherokee indian”. That doesn’t make US whites any better or any worse than European whites…just different.

You are Nigerian? I just recently watched a Nigerian film called “You broke my heart” I noticed that the lead actress was dark skinned and very beautiful. I have watched about 5 or 6 Nigerian movies and most of the movies were the same as ” You broke my heart” The lead actresses were black and beautiful. It is refreshing to see this because here in the United States, you don’t see that as often. Colorism is real prominent here in U. S movies and if there is a attractive black women in the movie, she acts ghetto, loud, or loose. It is really disappointing! Even movies that are written or directed by black film directors can sometimes seem stereotypical or color struck. It is real unfortunate.

I’ve heard a lot of bad talk about the movie from friends, all the way from it’s depressing to it was just a bad movie all together, so I decided to watch it myself and form my own analyze.
I mean, that’s a lot for one person, regardless of your race or what you look like to go through; I could see why people called it depressing, but I saw way too many truths to dismiss it all entirely.

..and the actors were great! MC..ppl seem to be amused/surprised/idk of the fact that she had no make up on….but imo, I don’t think it added or took anything away from her acting, so it wasn’t even a factor to me. She did a good job, regardless.

Overall, it was actually very captivating to me, maybe it was the drama, maybe because I could see so many people I know personally in her concerning one situation or another—but I can appreciate the movie, even though it wasn’t all glazed with a happy ending—that’s life, happy endings don’t always result.

“The majority of American Blacks have some percentage of European genes and this would most definitely account for the average Black having a somewhat lighter complexion than the average West African.

As a matter of fact there are many West Africans residing in the city where I live. Most have a very, very rich dark brown complexion similar to that of actor Wesley Snipes, if not darker and they tend to stand out because of this. The average American Black is closer to mid brown — nowhere near as dark as Wesley Snipes.”

I’m not denying that the Euro admixture in some (because 1/3 of black Americans do not have Euro admixture, according to major studies) is the reason for lighter skin. But I don’t think that presuming that lighter skin = Euro admixture is accurate, neither is darker skin = unmixed.

Also, do you know where these West Africans were from? I don’t want to lump all W. Africans together, because there are definite differences between them, and some groups are on average darker than others. I could just as easily say the West Africans I know weren’t dark brown (and they weren’t); but I know these were specific groups of people.

“It really shouldn’t be seen as an insult to either West Africans or US Blacks when Black Americans are described as looking somewhat different or being somewhat lighter in complexion than West Africans. Many white American don’t look exactly like their European counterparts — for one thing, few Europeans have Native American ancestry, but it’s quite common among whites in the south and southwest regions of the US.”

I think that white Americans pretty much look like their European counterparts. My SO is second generation Scandinavian and everyone assumes he’s just another white guy. For sure, there might be differences, but I doubt the average eye can detect it.

Yep! Yeah Naija movies arent my cup of tea(they are dramatic to the point of absurdity! LOL) but they do feature very good looking people. Yeah American movies, even the “black” ones portray blacks in a peculiar light.

Mmmm personally I can tell a black American apart from a FOB/first generation African… Sure we look very similar but there is something I pick up on with Africans that “give them away”. Same with white people, I can tell the difference between a recent FOB European and a white American.. IDK maybe different bone structures or something.

FG, it is beyond easy to point out people with extreme phenotypes and try to promote them as the average. What next, will you be posting a picture of Djimon Hounsou and saying, “Can’t you tell the difference between him and Prince?” Most people fall in a middling range in regards to appearance. For example:

Would you know this guy was Scottish if you saw him walking down the street or would you just think “random white guy”?

Would you know this woman was German if you saw her walking down the street or would you think “random white woman”?

Also, there is no such thing as a “Scandinavian” look (in actuality), for many reasons.

FG, it is beyond easy to point out people with extreme phenotypes and try to promote them as the average. What next, will you be posting a picture of Djimon Hounsou and saying, “Can’t you tell the difference between him and Prince?”

I looove James McVoy, he’s yummy in a weird way, also short, but heck with that pasty skin he can only be British, lol..that’s the giveaway.
Also not surprised Natasha that you’re with a Scandinavian, like you my sister is married to a Swede. From what I’ve seen of Scandinavian countries, they tend to have a more liberal outlook regarding race, more likely to be appreciative beauty in all races, unlike..say..the English!

Not surprised you guys perceived the UK to be some racial nirvana, they certainly promote themselves that way. Maybe J would beg to differ but my perceptions of England have been that of a racist country, on par with the US, albeit covertly. I see parallels on issues discussed in this blog as I do here in the UK. The British empire, the superiority complex, the class system etc etc, in some ways this country has quite a ways to catch up with the US..

I don’t think Precious was promoted the way..say The Blind side was. Is it any wonder a certain movie starring Jennifer Aniston(I forget the name) had the black couple removed from posters to promote it over here..where do you think that sort of thinking comes from?

Funny, my father went to school in the UK along with some of his friends from Nigeria. One guy, Sunny, hates the UK with a passion. He said its one of the most racist places he has every lived (He said “Its racist, cold, and poor” to be exact). He likes the US one hundred times better.

I wonder were the racial utopia stereotype comes from, I too am guilty of buying into it.

The English remind me of those types of people that are so quick to pat themselves on the back that ‘at least we’re not like those redneck Yanks’ when a closer look at their own backyard suggests otherwise!

Here’s where I got the idea of a better (please note: not good) situation in the UK: the treatment of people of colour and interracial couples in media.

In the US, it’s still unheard of an interracial romance to be treated like a “no big deal” in a movie. Whenever a black woman is a love interest in a mainstream movie in the US, it’s ALWAYS about troubles of interracial romance, never “just because”. In the UK, it’s possible to see a mainstream movie with a black character where race is not an issue (or not the most important issue about a black person).

its funny you say that, while for the most part you are right, i can’t help but remember the show Boy Meets World, I never once realized it until like a year ago that Shawn was in love with a black girl. it never really registered my mind about that for some reason.

I don’t think they ever had to deal with the race issue. Although there was one time when Angela said that she needed more black friends as a joke after her friends didn’t get what she was saying about something (i forgot what though).

Mhmm, let’s see, a biracial black President AND a muslim immigrant Miss USA, all that in a year, Lol, that wouldn’t happen over here..no sirreee, not for a loooong time, LOL

Seriously, that kinda sums it up..cold and grey, therein read the English and Weather. Racist to an extent, you bet, especially if they are African immigrants, but poor? depends where your friend lived, admittedly this country has one of the biggest rich/poor divides in Europe.

i am weary of europe for the shear fact that i don’t know how their racism works. i know racism in western europe isn’t nearly as bad as eastern europe. and i know england isn’t as bad as france at least the big city area types.

i just know that since i don’t know how european racism works, i don’t want to be there.

i heard its not safe for blacks because of the nigerian migration…although i have heard that once they find out your american, they will usually kiss up for the tourist money.

although it isn’t necessarily safe to be american in europe especially if you live up to the superiority complex most americans seem to have.

The British have a tendency to kiss US ass, there’s a reason Tony Blair was branded Bush’s poodle. Most Americans I know are definitely on the wealthy bracket, ie rich Exec types, or students(Syracuse, Notre Dame etc), the ‘average’ yank is few and far between, except tourists.
For that reason the average Brit, save for the glam they see of the US on Tv and occasional holidays to the US, the land of milk and honey expression comes to mind.

Back to Precious before Abagond deletes my comments, lol

I’ll be very un PC, Precious was an embarassment to the blacks here. I don’t know anyone who went to see that movie and liked it. Poverty is too rife in black communities, a blockbuster featuring the miseries of blacks will not put ‘bums on seats’ black ones at that!

As for racism in Eastern Europe, I heard Russia is bad, but I don’t know about other countries. I can speak only of my part of Eastern Europe and here’s pre-contact racism– which is specific form of racism, but I wouldn’t necessarily call it worse than other forms. It’s not because we’re nice people, but the hate local nations have for other local nations is much stronger than any hate they have for people of other races.

@MerriMay

Mhmm, let’s see, a biracial black President AND a muslim immigrant Miss USA, all that in a year, Lol, that wouldn’t happen over here..no sirreee, not for a loooong time, LOL

I think it goes with European mentality. In Europe, ethnicity and nationality and historical claim on a land are, generally, more important than the race. So I guess the hate for immigrants and blacks goes with it. What I’m saying is, blacks might not be hated because they are not white, but because they are “not English”.

The link below is an article about colorism. Two years ago before I found Abagonds blog I read many good articles on colorism but don’t remember the names of the different sites. I know I found them by googling words like colorism, black women, dark skinned women etc. Go to on youtube people on there are very vocal on the subject.

Oh god not him, that guy is a joke and his account got banned from youtube. Almost wish you didn’t post this because this idiot now has his own dumbass website and has his own blog talk radio show dedicated to bashing black women also heard that he invited a white supremacist on the show to bash black women and all the other black men there agreed with everything he was saying. I truly beilve SWP is white pretending to be black so he can mess with heads of confused black men and women (yes there are some black women who agree with him) just to get his jollies off. I don’t watch his videos but I did watch a video of a Black British man responding to him on a video entitled “Africa get off my nuts” where he was chatting crap about Africa anyway The Black Brit set him straight.

“its funny you say that, while for the most part you are right, i can’t help but remember the show Boy Meets World, I never once realized it until like a year ago that Shawn was in love with a black girl. it never really registered my mind about that for some reason.

I don’t think they ever had to deal with the race issue. Although there was one time when Angela said that she needed more black friends as a joke after her friends didn’t get what she was saying about something (i forgot what though).”

response: you know i was little when that show came out, just a kid, but I LOVED THAT SHOW! Yes, i didnt’ realize that Shawn was dating a bw at the time either. Like, i knew she was black but didn’t think of it as bw/wm interracial relationship, they were just shawn/angela. I liked the earlier season when they were in 7th grade and such the best anyway…and topanga oh man good times, good times.

But, years and years later when I did realize Shawn/ angela were interracial (a few years ago) i found it interesting that as a kid i didn’t notice it at all and now i did…

i only listned to about 2.47 minutes of srgtwilliedumbazz video, but all i can say in response is …not all biracial black women are light-skinned. As a matter of fact, I am thinking of a biracial b/w woman and she is brown, brown, browner than me. Secondly, not all biracial women are attractive. I disagree that someone is automatically more attractive just because they are a mixture of two races. I have seen many ugly people of all colors and many pretty people. Lastly, what is up with this so called “attitude,” that he speaks of. lastly, all biracial children come from white women/ black men huh? that’s odd because I can honestly say that I have seen more bw/wm couples recently than I have bm/ww. I made this comment on another post I think about why wm don’t marry bw part 2. I didn’t really believe the hype but I am seeing more couples definitely. It could be because I am on the east coast and I do tend to see more of that type of coupling when in southern MD than anywhere else, but I disagree w/ what I heard entirely a waste of my life to listen to anymore of it…

I know I’m interjecting but I agree with Natasha that in general it’s not easy to tell an African apart from an African American here unless you hear an accent or something to that affect.

I often joke with some of my friends some who are African others who are African American that if we all wore the same type of attire and were not allowed to talk.. just stand in a line….who would be able to pick out the African from the African America….all I can say is, good luck.

There are, however, certain people of Africa would tend to have very distinctive features that may make them stand out more etc (Habesha ppl, black Sudanese) , but even that can not be 100% because African Americans do not have a certain homogeneity about them either.

…and concerning the light/dark skin situation..I was a bit surprised to find that momma Africa’s in it as well; the amount of money spent on skin bleaching creams in some places of Africa is alarming. It’s sad anywhere it is happening in the word, but to know that it thrives in Africa is very sad.

“I often joke with some of my friends some who are African others who are African American that if we all wore the same type of attire and were not allowed to talk.. just stand in a line….who would be able to pick out the African from the African America….all I can say is, good luck.”

Seriously. Who could tell, if they didn’t already know them, who was the second generation immigrant between Emeka Okafor:

and Lebron James:

(I chose athletes because they aren’t picked for their looks unlike actors and musicians.)

“There are, however, certain people of Africa would tend to have very distinctive features that may make them stand out more etc (Habesha ppl, black Sudanese) , but even that can not be 100% because African Americans do not have a certain homogeneity about them either.”

I agree that the Habesha and black Sudanese like the Dinka have distinctive appearances, however they are East Africans, and AFAIK, the slave trade didn’t involve peoples from that area.

Image, lol. I think comments like that aren’t really helping Chris to make his much hoped for comeback, considering that most of his fans are black girls/women.

I thought some of his songs were good/okay, but he bears a striking resemblance to my first and longest boyfriend, so I was always drawn to him in a weird, trying-not-to-be-a-pedophile way. But he is proving every day that he has all the personality and behavioral traits I abhor.

I see Chris Brown’s parents forgot to teach him manners along with various other things. Hes a punk and a sissy now I can add colorist too. I don’t know why people think its cute to make jokes about dark skin people. I don’t find the shit funny not one bit.

I don’t know why people think its cute to make jokes about dark skin people. I don’t find the shit funny not one bit.

You are absolutely right! Remember, many a true thing is said in jest. To me a joke is ‘why did the chicken cross the road?’ type of joke. When you start attacking people for things for which they don’t have control over, such a height, skin colour, hair, physical attributes in general, it ain’t a joke, it’s an insult. Make no mistake. If anything, they do this to make themselves feel good or to deflect any criticism/jokes in regards to themselves. They also do this for attention seeking reasons.

One good thing I hope comes out of this is Gabourey goes on to better roles and defies odds. Howard Stern labelled her a fat, dark black woman, apparently she’s limited for roles, but I watched her this Friday on Jonathan Ross. What a charming delightful lady!
From reading blogs and reviews about Precious unfairly builds a picture of Gabourey.

I disagree, as a black woman in England, I doubt it’s not about the fact that I’m not English, even though I’m a citizen. I’m not white English. Being black is also a huge part of it as well.
It’s naive to think not!

Of course it is. But I believe it’s more about you not being “truly” English (to them)- skin colour is just an obvious indicator of the fact. I believe in European case, that is the number one reason for racism; while in America, the race itself is the number one reason for racism.

Interesting conversation about telling African from African African American and European from White American: When I went to Spain (stereotyped, along with Italy, as the land of tall, dark, Mediterranean types), most of the people I saw could be interchangeable with “plain” White Americans. In fact, I thought many of the older White people were tourists until they opened their mouths, and there were plenty of blonde-haired, blue-eyed, pale-ish Spaniards. 🙂

That is interesting, Jasmin. I always thought I could tell a difference between various European “groups” (not really ethnic groups, but maybe geographical groups); in a way that I believed I could tell a “difference” between a Northern European and Southern European person, and I often can tell if a person on the street is a foreigner (unless he or she is from one of ex Yugoslavian republics apart from Slovenia); I can usually tell a foreigner even if he/she is a Slavic person.

But “anecdotal evidence” and stereotypes about a group of people rarely help. Just because “tall, olive skin, black hair” is a dominant image about a group it doesn’t mean the average member of the group would share those traits.

Also, I am not sure whether people in Italy, Spain or Greece are really that dark skinned (for whites), or are they just tanned. I know many people who can get brown during summer but their original skin colour (winter colour :D) is not dark at all.

Spain has been a melting pot for a long time. Many groups have settled in the area (Celts, Germans, Jews, Arabs, blacks), so of course there’s going to be quite a bit of variation in phenotype. However, I suspect that a good proportion of the population fits the Antonio Banderas/Penelope Cruz stereotypical appearance.

Yes, it seems to me that the darkest people in the world reside in Southern India. I’m not sure how accurate the map is. It indicates that Somalis and Ethiopians are among the darkest, but from what I’ve seen, those nationalities aren’t especially dark.

That map shows what people’s skin colour SHOULD be. In practice it turns out much differently. The natives in Australia, for example, are much darker than those in the Amazon. Native Tasmanians should have been as light as Europeans but they were not. Etc.

At least two things screw up that map: migrations, especially north-south ones, and genetic drift.

I can’t watch it I’ve tried four times the abuse she goes through is so bad I can’t finish the movie.

Me too. I was laughing too hard.

I mean, how many morbidly obese, twice teenage pregnant, fundamentally ugly, coal black, illiterate, mentally retarded, physically abused, HIV positive, victims of incest by both father AND mother can anyone think of? You knew this was a parody when she ran out of that restaurant with that bucket of fried chicken past that Elijah Muhammed health food store. Anyone who takes this movie seriously must have a rather warped view of the world.

The movie has every bad black pathology cliche. The incest narrative from The Color Purple, the welfare queen mother, the black brute father, mother jealous of the the daughter, the light-skinned white saviour, and a whole lot more.

The Butler directed by Lee Daniels came in top in the box office last week, but most popular with female baby boomers.

I have not seen it (it is not showing where I am located), but after reading the reviews, it seems like it will be disappointing, like a remake of Forrest Gump but not presenting itself with the fairytale charm of Forrest Gump.

The story was inspired by an actual person, but the film’s characters are anything but actual people. The original butler is not from a cotton farm in Georgia and he did not have an activist son. The writer contrived everything to get the Civil Rights stuff in (Little Rock, lunch counters, freedom riders, Race riots, black panthers, etc.) I am afraid that it might come off as fake, or like a fairy tale. And the trailer mentioned that the butler “overcame his background” — what does that mean? I suppose it means we can relegate the civil rights era to history as American “has overcome that” as well.

This is old but I just came across it, & read some of the top comments. “Precious” wasn’t that great to me. During the middle of watching it, I couldn’t shake the feeling that I have seen this story before. Then it hit me long before the movie was over, it was a total rip off of “The Color Purple”. Only not done as well, so to make up for that it added two shameful acts HUMANS suffer from. Incest & racism. Did it strike me as odd that all the positive characters were interracial, kinda. (Am I insecure or self conscious? No, I just have eyes & I guess military training has taught me to make an effort to know what it is that I am seeing.) Even in Asia dark or black skinned women are considered less attractive than light skinned women. In the case of Black people in America it deepen during slavery, because having lighter skin meant you didn’t have to work in the fields. It was the light skinned slaves who worked the field slaves for their master, & served as house staff. This also meant less beatings, & greater chance of a longer life span. Some people are still hung up on this distinction, because it was our society’s preference of what was considered beautiful. Only it was carried out in such a cruel fashion. Now everyone in America tans their hearts out, & cringes when their skin becomes pale again. The reason being there are qualities to darker skin that they think they will achieve by darkening theirs. Less wrinkles, less visible stretch marks, less visible varicose veins, & dark skin just looks luscious. @abagond your statement that Black people are screwed up & refuse to get a job is a screwed up point of view, borderline racist. In NY alone alot of unemployment in the Black community is due to a lack of education. There is an issue in America where alot of states are purposely keeping future Black communities stupid on purpose. For example, Little Rock Central High in Arkansas is a great school for future Ivy Leaguers. The catch is they are all white & upper middle class. While the poor black students are sent to remedial classes. The remedial classes have no computers & limited very old books, so not all the students in that class can do homework. There are loads of schools like this & the remedial students have trouble reading & writing. It was an offensive comment to make, & not everyone who suffers from depression (like the mom in the movie), illiteracy, or unemployment is black. Every race has its bums & losers for whatever reason.

It was just a very hard film to watch quite cringe worthy. When we left the theater the ugly and very disturbing images were still in my mind. I couldn’t recommend this film to anyone. I saw this film and i saw Monsters Ball and wondered what is going on in Lee Daniels head and Oprah Winfrey who seems to be a fan of his. It is my humble opinion that they just love misery and pain. I wonder what would happen if they did a film with a storyline that was not so tragic.