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This is probably going to be too long of a read for many of our posters whose attention span goes as far as watching 1 quarter of basketball before proposing that we trade Melo Stat and Tyson for D12 CP3 and Lebron. However maybe it will make a few people think twice.

Our team right now is a complete joke. Our roster at first glance looks good but as a TEAM we lack any kind of cohesiveness or chemistry. We lack fundamental cogs that would turn this team into a solid one pretty much overnight. Lets talk about the players we have.

Carmelo Anthony - Currently the best player on our roster not only by reputation but performances. However, I remember at the start of the season posting an article about MDA comparing Melo to Larry Bird and playing him as a point forward. I laughed at it then and people were like "no srsly smokes melo can be a playmaker!!!11eleven"... Uh, no, he can't. He's shown nothing more than glimpses of being a good assist man and when he does its purely because the other team is doubling the **** out of him. Melo is not Lebron. He's not Larry Bird. He's Melo, a 25ppg scorer and the best improvement we can hope to see from him is that he'll step up defensively, consistently.

Amare Stoudemire - Regardless of his struggles, still the second best player on our team by the same criteria as above. Amare has played his entire career with a premier PG. We specifically brought in Felton on a 2 year "overpaid" deal for the purpose of having someone who could get STAT the ball. Even after trading Felton we had Billups, a savvy championship calibre PG with smarts. We don't have ANYONE on the team who can do this anymore so it should be no surprise that Amare is not functioning properly right now.

Tyson Chandler - Is a 10ppg 10rpg 2bpg player we got for defensive purposes only. Offensively he's as useful as Jared Jefferies unless, yes you guessed it, he's playing with a solid PG. Once gelled and cohesive with Amare we should see some nice interior D on this team. It's not surprising that a team who is so crap offensively also struggles defensively because we have a desperation negative mindset right now and Tyson/STAT/Jorts will need a while before they are comfortable with each others floor positioning and know when their teammate needs help.

Toney Douglas (29th pick) - Again, expectations coming in for this guy were silly especially after his performance in the playoffs. Our offensive genius coach saw Toney as a potential starting PG in the NBA. BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. This guy has and always will be a legit scoring 6th man type of combo guard threat and should be used as such. Obviously he's suffered a huge blow to his confidence thanks to the position he's been placed in but as the season progresses and our team improves you can REALISTICALLY expect him to return to being a 15ppg scorer off the bench who can hit the 3 ball.

Landry Fields (39th pick) - I genuinely wonder whether during his time with Andy Rautins posting youtube videos they DP'ed some peoples girlfriends on this site the kinda hate this guy has been receiving. The guy is a hard working 15-20mpg SG who should be anchoring the 2nd unit with solid fundamentals, fast break buckets, hustle, catch and shoot open opportunities, catch and drive the baseline etc. The guy can consistently contribute 8-10ppg 5 rebs and a steal which is more than anyone can ask for from a guy no one had even heard of 18 months ago. He is not and never will be a volume scorer/shooter and he should not be starting on this team, he should be coming in with TD to provide energy, size (at his spot) and hustle.

Iman Shumpert (17th pick) - The way people harp on about this guy here you'd think he's the second coming of Chris Paul. Yet again this guy is not a distributor and up until this summer he could not hit an open jumpshot. He has improved leaps and bounds since then but he should not be a starting PG nor should he be jacking up shots like he's Michael Jordan. When Baron Davis returns I whole heartedly expect Shump to take the role of starting 2 guard and fingers crossed he will be able to defend, hit a three now and then and create a few scoring opportunities from his athleticism and the fact we will then have 3 legit scorers on the team.

Mike Bibby - I only mention Bibby because he's the only actual PG on our roster right now yet he's not even that anymore. He played an entire season in Miami where he was never a distributor or playmaker he was purely there to keep the ball safe as it advanced across halfcourt and then give it up to Lebron/Wade. It's no shock his PG skills have gone when he's spent 2 years without using them and he's the wrong side of washed up.

The rest of our team is barely worth mentioning, in regards to this discussion.

So where do we go from here? Well firstly we get BD back and hope he contributes his usual 15/7 and can control the offense somewhat. At that point we can reasonably expect to score 100 on any given night and judging by our current defense that's plenty.

Secondly, and I'd probably ejaculate a river of spunk that would drown my entire street if this happened, we need to replace MDA with someone who actually knows how to utilize players other than the PG/C in a pick n rollololololol. I have plenty more to say about MDA but it's not too relevant to the topic of expectations of our players.

Currently on this team we really only have a couple of players who are underachieving and you can attribute a lot of that to confidence. Once the wins start rolling in, you'll see a whole new New York

****Buzzer sound!

Times up Smokes.

You wrote all of this but forgot...

You ALREADY used your "player" excuse. That's a technical foul... one shot and the ball.

Hahahahahahahah....

Now that we've seen this ineptitude for three years, with scores of different players...

Good post man, if someone is gonna down you for making a logical statement then they are really lost. Everything you said about each one of those guys is dead on. You can't turn a piece of **** into gold!

their draft position is important, it ties directly into their expectations....which is what this post is all about. Its not here to defend players, but to bring a bit of peace to the board when fans say trade stat, melo, fields when they have a bad game. If you all believe that a new coach will change thingsw dramatically, then you should wholeheartedly support our players and UNDERSTAND why they arent functioning the way they should. When players numbers drop, you need to find a reason as to why they are under performing...you cant just put a tall guy at pf just because he has height if he's truly in his heart and mind a pg....eg. magic johnson.....could anyone imagine magic as a pf posting and toasting?
we lose because we have no distributor and no bench......its not that difficult to assess...basketball is not a game of our starting 5 vs your starting 5...

spot on post bro. (smokes)

Magic is probably the worst example to defend your case, he once played center and they won and he was great, so you're kinda shooting yourself in the foot with this example, just saying.

And regarding our young picks: I think we're not expecting too much, but a PG picked in the first round should atleast be able to run an offense in the NBA, I've seen many second round picks or undrafted players run a basic offense in the NBA. He doesn't need to be Jason Kidd or Steve Nash, but he should be able to get the offense going, but he's not. Toney Douglas is one of the worst playmaking PGs in the league, isn't that quite embarrasing, regardless of his Draft position? THe fact that he's a first round pick even adds to that disappointment.

And Fields, he can't even make basic plays this season that every athlete in the NBA should be able to make, whether he's a lottery pick, late first round, second round or even undrafted. Did you see the fast break yesterday where he was the ballhandler and Stoudemire and a third Knick were trailing? INstead of handing the ball to STAT for the easy dunk he ignores his open teammtes and picks up a charge on a 3 on 1 fast break! That's ridiculous and he's making those mistakes all the time this season.
That has nothing to do with Draft position, even an undrafted player should be able to make those plays.

the problem with most of you is that you are so used to the Knicks losing that winning seems like a foregin concept to you so its understandable why cutting everyone slack when they underachieve. if the Knicks really became champisnihop contenders most of you would not be able to handle the success.

Magic is probably the worst example to defend your case, he once played center and they won and he was great, so you're kinda shooting yourself in the foot with this example, just saying.

And regarding our young picks: I think we're not expecting too much, but a PG picked in the first round should atleast be able to run an offense in the NBA, I've seen many second round picks or undrafted players run a basic offense in the NBA. He doesn't need to be Jason Kidd or Steve Nash, but he should be able to get the offense going, but he's not. Toney Douglas is one of the worst playmaking PGs in the league, isn't that quite embarrasing, regardless of his Draft position? THe fact that he's a first round pick even adds to that disappointment.

And Fields, he can't even make basic plays this season that every athlete in the NBA should be able to make, whether he's a lottery pick, late first round, second round or even undrafted. Did you see the fast break yesterday where he was the ballhandler and Stoudemire and a third Knick were trailing? INstead of handing the ball to STAT for the easy dunk he ignores his open teammtes and picks up a charge on a 3 on 1 fast break! That's ridiculous and he's making those mistakes all the time this season.
That has nothing to do with Draft position, even an undrafted player should be able to make those plays.

he didnt just play centre, he played all 5 position s that ONE game. He was also givin the right to do whatever he feels on the floor. dont forget jamal wilkins scored 37 for the magic that one game, everything was going right for them. point being, he played pg at 6'9'' and thats my point. tony douglas is a combo guard, not a pass first pg. bibby is our only true pg on the team. if you watched the game, you would see that fields was dumping off a pass, but was called for the charge because he was in the air.....i could understand you saying he still makes mistakes but he was NOT being selfish, he was inthe air with nowhere to go, in the middle of a pass....guy got under him, and they called the charge.

This is probably going to be too long of a read for many of our posters whose attention span goes as far as watching 1 quarter of basketball before proposing that we trade Melo Stat and Tyson for D12 CP3 and Lebron. However maybe it will make a few people think twice.

Our team right now is a complete joke. Our roster at first glance looks good but as a TEAM we lack any kind of cohesiveness or chemistry. We lack fundamental cogs that would turn this team into a solid one pretty much overnight. Lets talk about the players we have.

Carmelo Anthony - Currently the best player on our roster not only by reputation but performances. However, I remember at the start of the season posting an article about MDA comparing Melo to Larry Bird and playing him as a point forward. I laughed at it then and people were like "no srsly smokes melo can be a playmaker!!!11eleven"... Uh, no, he can't. He's shown nothing more than glimpses of being a good assist man and when he does its purely because the other team is doubling the **** out of him. Melo is not Lebron. He's not Larry Bird. He's Melo, a 25ppg scorer and the best improvement we can hope to see from him is that he'll step up defensively, consistently.

Amare Stoudemire - Regardless of his struggles, still the second best player on our team by the same criteria as above. Amare has played his entire career with a premier PG. We specifically brought in Felton on a 2 year "overpaid" deal for the purpose of having someone who could get STAT the ball. Even after trading Felton we had Billups, a savvy championship calibre PG with smarts. We don't have ANYONE on the team who can do this anymore so it should be no surprise that Amare is not functioning properly right now.

Tyson Chandler - Is a 10ppg 10rpg 2bpg player we got for defensive purposes only. Offensively he's as useful as Jared Jefferies unless, yes you guessed it, he's playing with a solid PG. Once gelled and cohesive with Amare we should see some nice interior D on this team. It's not surprising that a team who is so crap offensively also struggles defensively because we have a desperation negative mindset right now and Tyson/STAT/Jorts will need a while before they are comfortable with each others floor positioning and know when their teammate needs help.

Toney Douglas (29th pick) - Again, expectations coming in for this guy were silly especially after his performance in the playoffs. Our offensive genius coach saw Toney as a potential starting PG in the NBA. BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. This guy has and always will be a legit scoring 6th man type of combo guard threat and should be used as such. Obviously he's suffered a huge blow to his confidence thanks to the position he's been placed in but as the season progresses and our team improves you can REALISTICALLY expect him to return to being a 15ppg scorer off the bench who can hit the 3 ball.

Landry Fields (39th pick) - I genuinely wonder whether during his time with Andy Rautins posting youtube videos they DP'ed some peoples girlfriends on this site the kinda hate this guy has been receiving. The guy is a hard working 15-20mpg SG who should be anchoring the 2nd unit with solid fundamentals, fast break buckets, hustle, catch and shoot open opportunities, catch and drive the baseline etc. The guy can consistently contribute 8-10ppg 5 rebs and a steal which is more than anyone can ask for from a guy no one had even heard of 18 months ago. He is not and never will be a volume scorer/shooter and he should not be starting on this team, he should be coming in with TD to provide energy, size (at his spot) and hustle.

Iman Shumpert (17th pick) - The way people harp on about this guy here you'd think he's the second coming of Chris Paul. Yet again this guy is not a distributor and up until this summer he could not hit an open jumpshot. He has improved leaps and bounds since then but he should not be a starting PG nor should he be jacking up shots like he's Michael Jordan. When Baron Davis returns I whole heartedly expect Shump to take the role of starting 2 guard and fingers crossed he will be able to defend, hit a three now and then and create a few scoring opportunities from his athleticism and the fact we will then have 3 legit scorers on the team.

Mike Bibby - I only mention Bibby because he's the only actual PG on our roster right now yet he's not even that anymore. He played an entire season in Miami where he was never a distributor or playmaker he was purely there to keep the ball safe as it advanced across halfcourt and then give it up to Lebron/Wade. It's no shock his PG skills have gone when he's spent 2 years without using them and he's the wrong side of washed up.

The rest of our team is barely worth mentioning, in regards to this discussion.

So where do we go from here? Well firstly we get BD back and hope he contributes his usual 15/7 and can control the offense somewhat. At that point we can reasonably expect to score 100 on any given night and judging by our current defense that's plenty.

Secondly, and I'd probably ejaculate a river of spunk that would drown my entire street if this happened, we need to replace MDA with someone who actually knows how to utilize players other than the PG/C in a pick n rollololololol. I have plenty more to say about MDA but it's not too relevant to the topic of expectations of our players.

Currently on this team we really only have a couple of players who are underachieving and you can attribute a lot of that to confidence. Once the wins start rolling in, you'll see a whole new New York

Now that we've seen this ineptitude for three years, with scores of different players...

We KNOW it's the coach.

[/SIZE]

Exactly what iv'e been saying, if you keep giving the monkey the gun(roster turn overs) and he keeps shooting you, stop giving the monkey(antoni) the gun.First it was the roster(Isiahs team),then marbury, then it was wash trading Gallo, now it's STAT and Melo can't co-exist or we need a PG.How many excuses will this guy get, he can't coach we've seen it for 3 **ckin years already, times up.

Yes, I've read the article and all you do is defending our players, why they can't do this and can't do that.

Losers go for excuses, winners just do things.

And please stop to consistently remind us of where our young players were picked, that doesn't mean anything in pro sports.

I could even counter your argument and mention that Rashard Lewis or Michael Redd were second round picks and made it to the All-Star game, Ben Wallace wasn't drafted at all....so cut the excuses for Fields and Douglas that we can't expect them to bee good because they were late first/early second round picks.

I've had enough of those excuses.

It's also pretty sad that a $100 million man like Stoudemire can't play the game of basketball without a good PG by his side, it's almost a joke!

And last but not least: WE are expecting too much of our players? Are you kidding me? THEY ran they're mouth as soon as the lockout ended and we signed Chandler how good we are and that we're going for a championship!

Now it's our fault?

Open your ears man. They were talking the talk , especially Stoudemire and now they can't deliver, but it's all good as long as fans like you got their backs and find 100 excuses why the fail to do their job, it's the coach, their Draft position, the fans' expectations, the media etc.

Good thread, Smokes. I agree with everything, except your expectations for Baron Davis.

Since 2007, Davis has been injury prone and washed up. I doubt he's going to magically start being a playmaker and offensive threat 5 years later.
I think the Knicks are just screwed at the PG position, because they got greedy. They didn't want to keep an expiring Billups, so they got a washed up Davis and Bibby.

Yes, I've read the article and all you do is defending our players, why they can't do this and can't do that.

Losers go for excuses, winners just do things.

And please stop to consistently remind us of where our young players were picked, that doesn't mean anything in pro sports.

I could even counter your argument and mention that Rashard Lewis or Michael Redd were second round picks and made it to the All-Star game, Ben Wallace wasn't drafted at all....so cut the excuses for Fields and Douglas that we can't expect them to bee good because they were late first/early second round picks.

I've had enough of those excuses.

It's also pretty sad that a $100 million man like Stoudemire can't play the game of basketball without a good PG by his side, it's almost a joke!

And last but not least: WE are expecting too much of our players? Are you kidding me? THEY ran they're mouth as soon as the lockout ended and we signed Chandler how good we are and that we're going for a championship!

Now it's our fault?

Open your ears man. They were talking the talk , especially Stoudemire and now they can't deliver, but it's all good as long as fans like you got their backs and find 100 excuses why the fail to do their job, it's the coach, their Draft position, the fans' expectations, the media etc.

It's good to be an athlete folks, smokes will always back you up!

Do they actually pay you for this?

We are losers right now, make of that what you will (6-7).

Where players were picked does not matter in pro sports? Uhm... That's about as nonsensical of a sentence you could write.

It is irrelevent where any other player was drafted as another poster said it's about EXPECTATIONS you people think that Melo can play like Larry Bird, Shumpert is CP3 2.0, nonono they are not our players are what they are.

I never said you can't expect any of these players to be good. They are good. Not right this minute they're not but as players, overall, they are good. How many times last season, were people creaming their panties over Amare's 8 (?) straight 30+pt games, Douglas 3 point record, Fields overall pre-all star performance, etcetc? Now let's waive/trade these guys because we are in a slump yeah?

I don't call it "running their mouth" when a pro sports team talks about the potential of the team personally but each to their own.

To say that it's "pathetic" the way STAT is playing due to having no PG... Well none of us are happy with Amare's performance but it's not pathetic no. Do you think that any other elite big man would be leading us to the promised land without a half-decent PG on the roster? The only players who don't need a quality PG to be great are the players who are great playmakers, be it a true PG, a Kobe/Wade-esque SG, a Lebron/Bird type SF or whatever. You think if we put Gasol, Duncan, Dirk, Bosh on this team with no PG to get them the ball we'd magically be better? No we wouldn't, these guys all have people who can get them the ball.

Douglas and Shumpert were not "a PG picked in the first round" they are guards picked in the first round. You expect a 29th pick combo guard to be able to run an offense in the NBA? You're deluded. And yes, expecting WAY too much!

Why is it embarassing that Douglas is one of the worst playmaking PG's in the league? That's not his role. His role is to shoot and defend and hustle, and hopefully at some point get better at driving the lane. Apart from the last part, he has at points excelled at each of those things.

Good thread, Smokes. I agree with everything, except your expectations for Baron Davis.

Since 2007, Davis has been injury prone and washed up. I doubt he's going to magically start being a playmaker and offensive threat 5 years later.
I think the Knicks are just screwed at the PG position, because they got greedy. They didn't want to keep an expiring Billups, so they got a washed up Davis and Bibby.

Well that's the thing. When healthy he is a serious play maker. He makes the heady, savvy passes MDA covets, can run a pick and roll with effortless ease and, if healthy, will fearlessly penetrated into the teeth of the defense.. and finish well. BD also shoots the three accurately.

This guy could really flourish under MDA. No doubt in my mind. He's a real PG.

Keep in mind, even in victory, when all the fans were "creaming their pants", the NYK's with a myriad of players, were and continue to not be fundamentally sound.

Again... that's regardless to draft position...

So what's your final anwer?

Originally Posted by smokes

Ummm.... I'm a bit nervous... but I will add a couple more things for your viewing pleasure.

To say that it's "pathetic" the way STAT is playing due to having no PG... Well none of us are happy with Amare's performance but it's not pathetic no. Do you think that any other elite big man would be leading us to the promised land without a half-decent PG on the roster? The only players who don't need a quality PG to be great are the players who are great playmakers, be it a true PG, a Kobe/Wade-esque SG, a Lebron/Bird type SF or whatever. You think if we put Gasol, Duncan, Dirk, Bosh on this team with no PG to get them the ball we'd magically be better? No we wouldn't, these guys all have people who can get them the ball.

Douglas and Shumpert were not "a PG picked in the first round" they are guards picked in the first round. You expect a 29th pick combo guard to be able to run an offense in the NBA? You're deluded. And yes, expecting WAY too much!

Why is it embarassing that Douglas is one of the worst playmaking PG's in the league? That's not his role. His role is to shoot and defend and hustle, and hopefully at some point get better at driving the lane. Apart from the last part, he has at points excelled at each of those things.

Thank you and goodnight!

Well Smokes... before we reveal the answer, here's a few more tidbits...

Those "guards" NOT drafted to be "guards", played...
GUARDS IN COLLEGE!

Well Smokes, damn good try at intimating the expectations of the fans are far fetched. That would make sense if we didn't notice many top drafted players on this team, along with fundamental ineptitude for years.

Enjoy our consolation prize. A free set of tickets for you and your family to the Universoul circus! Starring Mike 'Antoni as a clown!

To say that it's "pathetic" the way STAT is playing due to having no PG... Well none of us are happy with Amare's performance but it's not pathetic no. Do you think that any other elite big man would be leading us to the promised land without a half-decent PG on the roster? The only players who don't need a quality PG to be great are the players who are great playmakers, be it a true PG, a Kobe/Wade-esque SG, a Lebron/Bird type SF or whatever. You think if we put Gasol, Duncan, Dirk, Bosh on this team with no PG to get them the ball we'd magically be better? No we wouldn't, these guys all have people who can get them the ball.

Thank you and goodnight!

I understand what your saying, and i love STAT,but the other 4 players you mentioned all have on thing that STAT doesn't....A post game.Getting the ball to a big man is simple,if you have anyone who can dribble the ball past half court, and if your bigs have any type of post game, and that's why all of those players would still be effective on this current knicks team.Hell, they all pass better than STAT which creates many open shots for teammates, like i said earlier i love STAT, but dude needs to work on his post game and passing.That would open everything else up for use.Remember Duncan had Avery Johnson before Parker, and Gasol has fisher, Bosh never had a good PG, but they all can post, and don't need other players to create easy shots to be effective.What's pathetic is that after all this time in the NBA, no one has forced a 6'10 260 athletic freak to develop any kind of post game, and that's why he is ineffective without a good PG.Just my 2cent.

I understand what your saying, and i love STAT,but the other 4 players you mentioned all have on thing that STAT doesn't....A post game.Getting the ball to a big man is simple,if you have anyone who can dribble the ball past half court, and if your bigs have any type of post game, and that's why all of those players would still be effective on this current knicks team.Hell, they all pass better than STAT which creates many open shots for teammates, like i said earlier i love STAT, but dude needs to work on his post game and passing.That would open everything else up for use.Remember Duncan had Avery Johnson before Parker, and Gasol has fisher, Bosh never had a good PG, but they all can post, and don't need other players to create easy shots to be effective.What's pathetic is that after all this time in the NBA, no one has forced a 6'10 260 athletic freak to develop any kind of post game, and that's why he is ineffective without a good PG.Just my 2cent.

THIS IS IT FOLKS!

I've said this before in another thread. Its okay for Amare to excel playing with a good pg BUT it should NOT be the only way he can be a good player. Highly skilled big men don't neccessarily need a great PG to be effective. All they need is the ball delivered to them somewhere on the blocks in their prefered area. I blame both Amare and Antoni for this. Amare should WANT to expand his game and Antoni should WANT to make his star player even more effective.

There may be expectations that are too high for some of our players but the one person who isn't meeting expectations at all is the guy who resembles the clown on the tube of assorted flavor potato chips.