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Fake Indians

Fake Indians are people who claim to be Native American but are not. Unlike Blacks or Asians, many Natives are too mixed to “look” Indian, leaving an opening for fakes.

While many Americans are part Native by blood, very few belong to an Indian tribe that they call home. The American government knows which are the true tribes and each tribe knows who belongs. That simple.

Fake Indians want the advantages – like coolness points, affirmative action, book deals, casinos and parts in films. But without the disadvantages, like having no money, not enough heat or food, poor schooling, poor health, being thrown in prison and substance abuse.

And seeing one’s culture mocked and opportunities taken by fake Indians.

Fake Indians have to play to stereotypes to seem “real”, which strengthens the racism against Indians. The only real American Indian I have ever met did not play to stereotypes – because she did not have to.

Fake Indians also make it hard to know much about true Indians. Which makes being fake even easier!

Some fake Indians:

Almost every Cherokee tribe – only three are real:

Cherokee Nation (Oklahoma)

United Keetoowah Band of Cherokee Indians (Oklahoma)

Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians (North Carolina)

Carlos Castaneda – made up the research for his PhD thesis and for “The Teachings of Don Juan: A Yaqui Way of Knowledge” (1968). Lost his degree – but sold millions of books.

Douglass Durham – put in charge of security by AIM (the American Indian Movement) at their 1973 occupation of Wounded Knee. Was working for the FBI.

Ward Churchill – former Chair of Ethnic Studies at the University of Colorado. Fired for plagiarism, fabrication and falsification. Author of several books on Indian issues. Wrote about the FBI undermining AIM but is suspected to be FBI himself! Calls Carlos Castaneda “the greatest hoax since Piltdown Man.” Claims to belong to the Keetowah Cherokees, which they deny.

Jamake Highwater – author of “Anpao: An American Indian Odyssey” (1973), which won a Newberry, “The Sun, He Dies: A Novel About the End of the Aztec World” (1980) and “The Primal Mind: Vision and Reality in Indian America” (1981), which became a PBS documentary. He fooled the New York Times and the National Endowment for the Humanities, but not Susan Sontag!

Iron Eyes Cody – appeared in over 200 Hollywood films and the iconic “Keep America Beautiful” ad where he cries.

Margaret B. Jones – pen name of Margaret Seltzer who wrote about her fake childhood as a half-white, half-Indian foster child in a black ghetto in “Love and Consequences” (2008). Both a fake Indian and a wigger!

Forrest Carter – wrote about his fake Cherokee boyhood in “The Education of Little Tree” (1976), which sold millions. Outed in 1991 as Asa Carter, Klansman and speechwriter for Alabama Governor George Wallace.

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Indeed, fake Native American tribal affiliation is definitely exploited for personal gain.
But, isn’t it possible to realign yourself with another ethnic identity after birth — I don’t think the ethnic identity of your parents is the sole determinant of your ethnic identity. Isn’t some sort of ethnic conversion or realignment possible?

I do not support people who are obvious fakes, but I don’t fully begrudge people who make an honest decision to engage themselves directly into any particular ethnic group.

I remember Iron Eyes Cody in that “Keep American Beautiful” environmental campaign. He was so into his “native” heritage, he even helped pen his autobiography claiming he was part Cherokee and part Cree. The thing is, I was surprised to learn he was actually Italian-American. Imagine that.

@Jefe
Except its appropriation, not to mention if what your appropriating is based on stereotypes and falsehoods than your doing the group you so call “admire” a disservice. And the fact is, no matter how much one would like to be part of another ethnic group, they will never actually be part of that group because they simply weren’t born into that group. Most people who pretend to belong to another group do so because they have very defined ideals of what a member of said group is supposed to be like even if these ideals would offend members of said group. In many instances people who engage in this sort of behaviour are incredibly racist, they just are too confused to realize how racist they really are. If one has to claim a group, chances are they don’t belong in that group, whereas if someone is born outside of an ethnic group but identifies with said group having been emerged in the culture, etc the group more often than not will claim that person as one of them without the person having to do so themselves. More often than not, people who are claimed by other ethnic groups know who they are and are proud of who they are, but realize they aren’t quite like others within their own respective ethnicity.

This is shows us that whites are not happy being white. Anything to align themselves with a long suffering group will make them feel better about their European heritage.

I used to wonder why whites would lie about having “black blood”. Why attach yourself with a group that is marginalized? Because deep down, they want attention, money and are desperately trying to distance themselves from their past.

One thing that chocked me from when I was a child, was why and who you “disguise” yourself into “another person”, not even a “character”. I have NEVER understood how my friends could disguise themselves as “Chinese person” or “an African” or “an Indian” at Carnival. I could never have done it. If I did when I was very little (I don’t remember, I was disguised by someone else. It wasn’t my choice). I would have felt ashamed because I felt it was totally wrong somewhere.

Now I understand it was because I could not get it why someone would want to “possess” another human being to the point of being him or her. Take away his or her being and make it a joke…

ThruthBeTold, I don’t think it is because they are not happy with being themselves. They are ultimate narcissists, they love their own selves like crazy. I think it’s more like what I said here^^.
They want to possess everything and everyone, decide for everyone who they really are, name everything and everyone, classify everything and everyone, know what everybody think and wishes t be able to stop them from getting it, hide and transform everything and everyone that they imagine could be seen as better than them. (The Mysteries of Africa/Egypt. Cleopatra…)

Espera DiCorti (Iron Eyes Cody) at least “walked the walk.” He and his wife – she was Native American – adopted several Indian children, donated a great deal of time and money to Indian causes, and very much tried to be respectful members of the greater Indian community.

I don’t know whether it was a mental thing or something… but he really, honestly believed he WAS an Indian. It wasn’t quite like “I’m in it for the cool and hopefully government goodies” like some of the others on the list. Espera was an honestly decent guy, even while being a Wannabee.

This is a very interesting post. I used to work with a white guy that was a real redneck. He was an older man with grey hair and blue eyes. Once in awhile the subject of race would come up and he would always mention his great grandfather that was Native American. It was very strange to me. From time to tome he would make racist remarks about Asians and Mexicans. Yet,he would always bring up his Native American ancestry as if to show he identified with people who are discriminated against. It was all a bunch of horse manure! These white folks just want to distance themselves from the racist past that they’re ashamed of.

Actually findians are not fake indians, they are mixed folks up in Minnesota and there abouts, mix between mainly chippewa and finns who lived next or among them. Reason was that the only white guys who actually wanted to live in remote forests etc. were finns who had lived that way back in their home land. But findians do not try to tell anyone they are pure native tribe etc. at all. As far as I know.

These white folks just want to distance themselves from the racist past that they’re ashamed of

unfortunately, I think that a lot of them are not ashamed…

They don’t feel shame. This is what allows them to continue the same BS all over. This is what astonishes non-racists and makes it so difficult to fight them.

Shame is a feeling, they have none. They don’t care about the past. They just don’t want to have to talk about it, it bothers them to have conversations about it.
In France, they shout against “the call for repentance” that they think is what people who want that history to be taught are asking for. They don’t see anything wrong with it, so they don’t see what the point is talking about it. They want other people to feel guilty, not them.

“If it happened to you, it’s for a reason, you were looking for it. It’s the consequence of something you did or who you are”.

There is another group of people who have been determined to entitlement of Indian staus. That would be anyone, of any race, who has been raised in a traditional Indian culture. This could be by adoption, for example. These individuals encounter the same cultural clash with the dominant culture and can be discriminated against because of their cultural upbringing.

they will never actually be part of that group because they simply weren’t born into that group

How about the case of adoptees? Unless the adoptive parents are of the same exact ethnic heritage as the adoptee’s parents, the adoptee will be raised in a different ethnic group than he/she was born into. And the ethnic group of the adoptee’s biological parents will probably never accept them into that ethnic group either. I believe that the adoptee will most likely adopt the ethnic group of the adopted parents. In rare cases the adoptee may try to reinsert himself / herself into the original ethnic group with limited success, or even may try to find a 3rd ethnic group to align with.

How about the case of biracial or multiethnic persons? They may have grown up in early childhood identifying with one of the parents’ groups, and then realign themselves with the other one later in life. Even having a parent who had a prior identity with a particular ethnic group does not mean that the child was necessarily “born” into that ethnic group or accepted as part of that group from birth. And, they might find themselves better accepted into an ethnic group that neither parent claims.

How about the case of interracial / interethnic / interfaith marriage? In some societies or cultures, one of the spouses (typically the wife) must realign herself to the other spouse’s (eg, the husband’s) ethnic group in order for the marriage to be valid and they would have to raise any children in that culture. In that case, the spouse has realigned the ethnic affiliation.

In none of these cases do I believe that the individual is “pretending” to be part of an ethnic group. They might be just honestly trying to “find” an ethnic to participate with.

Not that I am saying that most of these fake (American) Indians are being honest.

“…They want to possess everything and everyone, decide for everyone who they really are, name everything and everyone, classify everything and everyone, know what everybody think and wishes t be able to stop them from getting it, hide and transform everything and everyone that they imagine could be seen as better than them. …”

I think as Bulanik has commented there is a hidden unacknowledged history and practice of cultural appropriation. Stemming from the days of colonialism and imperialism.

But I agree with Truthbetold:

“…This shows us that whites are not happy being white…”

There is a deep unacknowledged dissatisfaction here. Which only makes itself known in the presence or company of POC. Its when they are made to go through the mental process of comparing and contrasting. themselves a feeling of emptiness can emerge. Of course its easy to hide and disguise this in the alternative world of “superior white society” thats already been set up and created for us ALL to forcibly or freely dissolve ourselves into. But even this is not enough hence the need to fake a different “minority” or other than white identity.

@Leigh204 When I was a teenager I used to go to a comic book shop with some of my friends. The owners of the shop were a white couple. I remember the wife always bragging to me and my friends that Iron Eyes Cody was her grandfather and she was so proud of being part Native American. Hmmm…..I wonder if she knows he’s Italian. Or maybe she just didn’t want to tell us that little bit of information.lol

I noticed the same cultural appropriation thing is happening in the Orisha religion , where a couple whites have been initiated into the priesthood.
now they have websites and are writing books about the Orisha.

When white people do this, it’s possible because the history that enables that cultural appropriation to happen – through violence – has been erased.

@ Cornlia I see what you’re saying to a degree. They probably don’t feel much shame or guilt. If they truly did feel guilt,they would stop mistreating people of color. But why do you think some white people do bring up they’re racial mixture? What’s the point? They always have a motive for everything they do. Don’t you agree?

@Leigh204 When I was a teenager I used to go to a comic book shop with some of my friends. The owners of the shop were a white couple. I remember the wife always bragging to me and my friends that Iron Eyes Cody was her grandfather and she was so proud of being part Native American. Hmmm…..I wonder if she knows he’s Italian. Or maybe she just didn’t want to tell us that little bit of information.lol

Or, maybe she couldn’t handle the truth that her grandfather, that is, if Iron Eyes Cody was actually her grandfather, was a fraud.

“I feel that the white people who engage in the “fake Indians” thing, etc., may choose to believe they are disconnected from the forms of oppression that their ‘appreciation’ and ‘celebration’ reinforces, but even their sense of entitlement to have their experience of ‘other’ cultures prioritized is symptomatic of white supremacy!”

Very well stated.That just about sums it up. I can’t add anymore to that.

I wonder if this pathology is why several sports teams have named themselves after Native Americans like the Atlanta Braves, or is there something else at work.

The Washington “Redskins” also comes to mind. Its not confined to sports teams, either, lest we forget the Jeep “Cherokee” and the Mazda “Navajo” (as well as the Volkswagen “Touareg”, the named of which was approriated from the Tuareg / Touareg “Berber” people of Africa).

Jefe, my personal opinion is, anyone who has any trace of real Indian blood in their veins, has their own personal right to identify on the inside with their origins, and can research and seek out or not seek out….as long as they dont get out of joint if a tribe has official laws of how to be considered one of the members..they have to accept those physical realities

My son has some traces of Indian blood in him, its not nearly as big as the Afro Brazilian or European , but maybe as much as I have German blood…but he isnt looking to find his long lost tribe, but, I see how he can relate and I think its just fine…dont let anyone influence you from seeking out the truth in your life that you want to find out…I could hardly care less what anyone thinks my son can or cant do about discovering and identifying what his roots are

I just think people using fraud to bring it out in public, especialy to make money, are low. Or people who wear it on their sleeve .

I also think that all humans have something inside that makes them fascinated by other cultures ( as well as a side that is repelled by strangers) , with elements of wanting to asimilate things about those cultures…I might go out to an Indian (from India) or a Japanese restaurant , and, indulge in their marvelous cooking and feel like for a small instane Im immersing myself in their culture, and, actualy have a great respect for those cultures even just on the basis of tasting their cooking and imagining what it would be like living there and eating the foods and soaking up that atmosphere…

But, being false or patranising is negative, and brings a lot of negative baggage with it

The truth is, culture doesnt have a cutoms gate you have to pass to get stamped to give somebody the right to seek out and learn and apreciete someone elses culture…and it is human to want to do that and there are huge examples of humans everywhere in the world learning and assimilating other peoples cultures. Imagine thinking Wynton Marsalis shouldnt play European Classical music because he isnt from that culture…that is total bs…the truth is if someone really pays the price of discipline and has the will and affinity, they can assimilate into someone elses culture …we all are sucking on all each others culture far more than we know

Who am I to criticise some white hippies who go down to New Mexico to set up a teepee and try to do their version of Indian culture. I may think its silly and the real Indians may think its silly and not like it, but, I dont care , who am I to criticise them

Its the exploitation of cultures, of wiping them out and then falsly representing them in history books or movies, burying them, making them seem like they are less than Western culture, making money off them by white people who push it as though its theirs or that they invented it . Or pretending they are that like these fake Indians…That is where the real problem begins

The Washington “Redskins” also comes to mind. Its not confined to sports teams, either, lest we forget the Jeep “Cherokee” and the Mazda “Navajo” (as well as the Volkswagen “Touareg”, the named of which was approriated from the Tuareg / Touareg “Berber” people of Africa).

2.) I don’t know if ‘titibop’ is being facetious, but there are a lot of the KPop entertainers who have utilized a lot of ‘urban black’ culture as part of their act;even to the point of getting ‘afro-perms’, ‘black-face’, etc.

3.) I have family in New Orleans, who have claimed ‘Indian’ membership/ancestry for generations. They have huge festivals, wear intricate ‘outfits’ representing the ‘Tribe of the Yellow Pocahontas”, which dates back to the 1800’s. They are not an ‘official’ ‘nation, but have a strong cultural link to the native culture of Louisiana. I’m unsure if this is cultural appropriation…

…you can get the money and still be pathetic…
——–Jefe, my personal opinion is, anyone who has any trace of real Indian blood in their veins, has their own personal right to identify on the inside with their origins, and can research and seek out or not seek out…
——–But, being false or patranising is negative, and brings a lot of negative baggage with it
——–The truth is, culture doesnt have a cutoms gate you have to pass to get stamped to give somebody the right to seek out and learn and apreciete someone elses culture…and it is human to want to do that and there are huge examples of humans everywhere in the world learning and assimilating other peoples cultures.
——–Wynton Marsalis shouldnt play European Classical music because he isnt from that culture…that is total bs…the truth is if someone really pays the price of discipline and has the will and affinity, they can assimilate into someone elses culture …we all are sucking on all each others culture far more than we know
——–

B.R. thank you so much for what you’ve said thus far in this thread. Your comments are beautiful and true. You’re asserting the individual’s freedom to choose and explore, while respecting him/herself and the culture they are exploring or developing affinity for. You’re highlighting the importance of coming to learn about one’s self and doing so in fellowship with others. Self exploration can be a solitary activity but not indefinitely; it must include others and “their world” at some point.

Mexico has a large mestizo population–mixed native Indians (Amerindians indigenous to Southwest US) with Spanish (European) and depending on area, mixed with African. There are also unmixed Amerindians living there, I believe Mayans and other groups.

also many native Indians live today throughout Mexico and Central American and South America…In the Caribbean, they did not die out as US/western history likes people to believe, they intermixed, that’s why the Dominican Republic insists that they are also mixed with native Amerindian, and Puerto Ricans were found to be majority Amerindian mixed with Spanish and/or African.

This is why I think it is wrong to tell Caribbean/South American Latinos (no matter the phenotype) to choose between black and white, because depending on the country they are from, also determines the mixture.

Majority are mixed-raced, no matter how much they like to push their Spanish European ancestry

Can someone (who knows their shit!) say a little about who/what the Carib Indians are? Is anyone aware of a concise but good history of the Caribbean prior to the Transatlantic Slave Trade?

Are the Carib Indians essentially just Indians of the Americas (but located far South), just as the more well known North American Indians are understood as Indians of the northern region of the Americas?

SW6, I believe that the pre-Columbian “Indians” found in the Caribbean islands were the product of the same trans-Siberian migration across the Bering Straight that all native people’s of the New World come from. They are basically Asians, far removed from their origins.

my personal opinion is, anyone who has any trace of real Indian blood in their veins, has their own personal right to identify on the inside with their origins, and can research and seek out or not seek out….as long as they dont get out of joint if a tribe has official laws of how to be considered one of the members..

I just think people using fraud to bring it out in public, especialy to make money, are low. Or people who wear it on their sleeve .

At what point does “Identifying on the inside with their origins” become “wearing it on their sleeve” and interpreted as being fake?

For example, President Obama can confirm that he is actually the descendant of ante-bellum black slaves (on his mother’s side, no less), and he were to go out and become famous by raising money to make redresses to descendants of black slaves based on his own ancestry, would he be fake (since he does indeed have black slave ancestry, but his recent black (ie, “sub-Saharan) ancestry is not at all traced to black slaves)?

This might sound like simply a rhetorical question, but there is some reality to this problem. Personally, I had ample direct contact with both my mother’s and father’s families growing up, knew all of my grandparents very well, and felt like I should be entitled to identify with the cultural background of my grandparents. Yet, time and time again, I have AT BEST been treated as “fake” by both sides, but more often as simply not entitled. I have had contact with other persons who have mistaken me as members of their ethnic group, even after knowing me for years. I have indeed entertained the thought of whether it might be easier to realign myself with a different ethnic group where I am less considered to be a “fake” even though technically, I would be.

Certain tribes have rules about tribal membership probably just to control for “fakes”. It is likely that no such rules existed when such tribes were still intact.

I think it is abhorrent to claim fake ethnic heritage to exploit for personal gain, but given my current situation, I can’t totally condemn others. I have my own problems about being “fake”. :-\

We all may imitate things from other cultures all of the time. That’s not a problem in my book. BUT appropriation is taking things and trying to pass them off as your own, or at the least not acknowledging where it comes from originally.

For example, wearing Native American jewelry is fine IMO. However, saying that I’m one fifth Cherokee just to make myself seem like I’m more exotic while I’m wearing it would be wrong.

I will re-read all this and try to answer or at least express a thought on Kushite Prince’s question.

But why do you think some white people do bring up they’re racial mixture? What’s the point? They always have a motive for everything they do. Don’t you agree?

Just a quick thought. I think the constant inversion of facts (and that includes “disguise” being the others that we despise) that we notice in white-minded/white people’s attitudes, behavior, actions, policies, etc… stems from the very fact that, if Narcissistic Personality Disorder (Perversion Narcissistique in French) is actually one of the foundations of the troubled personality they display, one of the key symptoms of that disorder is that they constantly invert/reverse/put things upside down. After a while, and several consecutive reversals, they find themselves at a loss to explain their own selves.

From their point of view it would be : Are they full of pride or empty ? Are they superior or looking for ways to feel so ? Do they need others or do they despise them ? Is/Are their culture/s superior or do they need the input from others ?

After trying so hard to distanciate/dissociate themselves from nature and their own selves, they keep trying to steal from others’ own nature and selves. But constantly remind these others that they don’t need them. that they know better and that they must lead.

I don’t know if this makes sense… Difficult to make sense of nonsensical attitudes and ideologies…

… Chicago Blackhawks, and,
the Washington Redskins?
Is it to ‘honour’ a defeated people? To remind us that “they” fought, but failed?

This paradox doesn’t make sense unless the idea of the Native American is stripped bare and seen for what it represents: a malignant presence to be wiped out, or kept under control, or depicted as a form of local “wildlife”.

King, I think you are saying what I think, except, for example,my son, who may be 10 percent Indian, mentions about doing something artistic , using paint to put on in an Indian style , exactly because he feels something in himself that has those origins in his blood (at the same time doing things that ackowledge the other parts of his origins , like the Afro Brazilian side). And, I absolutly see no harm in any way if he wants to do that to explore that side of himself…

SW6, I just dont get some kind of over pshyco analysis of why some people might want to dress up and for what ever reason, fantasize and go out side of themselves…I mean, we might as well over psycho analyse every actor and actress who exists because that is just what they want to do…get outside of themselves..I mean we can go after white people who do at as Indians now, next week its going to be the next person for wanting to dress up…I dont want any part of that mentality….I beleive very powerfully in creativity and flights of fantacy

We the thread is talking about people who purposefully deceive the world around them with false claims of who they are and then, some of them make money and comercialise it…..or as I said and as King points out, and apropriating and not ackowledging where it comes from originaly , the rip offs, the burying of the other culture, the not trying to tell the real story, the deceit and comercial gain from that deceit , the absolute media distortion…that is something to condemn

“…They want to possess everything and everyone, decide for everyone who they really are, name everything and everyone, classify everything and everyone, know what everybody think and wishes t be able to stop them from getting it, hide and transform everything and everyone that they imagine could be seen as better than them. …”

I think as Bulanik has commented there is a hidden unacknowledged history and practice of cultural appropriation. Stemming from the days of colonialism and imperialism.

But I agree with Truthbetold:

“…This shows us that whites are not happy being white…”

There is a deep unacknowledged dissatisfaction here. Which only makes itself known in the presence or company of POC. Its when they are made to go through the mental process of comparing and contrasting. themselves a feeling of emptiness can emerge. Of course its easy to hide and disguise this in the alternative world of “superior white society” thats already been set up and created for us ALL to forcibly or freely dissolve ourselves into. But even this is not enough hence the need to fake a different “minority” or other than white identity.

I have a question: what do you make of those people who are classified as white in the racial vision of humanity but do not classify themselves as such ?

Let me explain: I do not define myself as white. Does that make me an unhappy white, or a person who has no problem with her own self and doesn’t care about the system some of her ancestors’ built to make themselves feel better about their own selves, while in the process forcing everyone they encountered on their path to enter that system ?

In other words, is a light-skinned non-racist / not suffering from Narcissistic Personality Disorder person viewed as “an unhappy white”, since that person refuses to be labeled as “white” ?

Do you see what I mean ? Finally, I think that it all depends if your question occurs in a totally racially-defined world or if you acknowledge that there are people, of all origins, who do not define themselves inside the frame of race (while at the same time recognizing its impact on society(ies) and their obligation to comply with many aspects of it in their actual life, in spite of their not adhering to the idea).

I am trying to develop on this following your remark, because it either means that you envisage “whites” as a racial natural reality of light-skinned people (all of them suffering from inherent and innate “unhappiness” and there really is no hope…), or you omitted the fact of self-determination and therefore possible self-happiness…

Jefe, it seems you are mentioning both aspects I talked about, your inner thoughts about it versus the physical reality…

If you go inside yourself to find the answer or to ask yourself the truth, you dont have to deal with anyone’s regection. You have to live with yourself and the truth….you cant let other people, even family , accept or reject what you need to know about the truth of yourself , inside…but, you will have to deal with the physical reality of their truth and desician not to accept you…

I dont have any hang ups about Obama…I know the klan would regect him..that is all I need to know…the bottom line is what he does. How people want to define it, is up to them

Oyan, very interesting you mentioned your family that dresses up as Indians in Carnival in New Orleans, because , “being Indian” may only be the surface rationalisation, there may be other origins to this practice underneath that are hidden

There is a parrallel custom in Pernambuco Brazil…They call them selves “Cabocolo de Lanca”, and , while part of it is mixed with Indian custom, part of it is unmistakingly African in origin.They only come out in Carnival, just like the “Indians” of New Orleans

The costumes are elaborate , with richly dressed headdresses and scarfs underneath, they drink a mixture of buckshot and cachasa,and carry giant lances. They have costumes that use a lot of feathers , the beats are more African, they call it “Maracatu Rural”…

But, I noticed that the “Indians” of New Orleans Carnival, have costumes that sort of mimick Indian costumes but they have other charactoristics also, and, some of those remind me of the Cabocolos

Ill try to bring in a picture to show you, It just takes me awhile to do google and I wanted to tell you this now

ThruthBeTold, I don’t think it is because they are not happy with being themselves. They are ultimate narcissists, they love their own selves like crazy. I think it’s more like what I said here^^.

@Cornelia

Yes, I agree more with your view Cornelia. What you said reminded me of a fucking snot of a woman that Jane Elliott encountered in England. The woman I’m talking about is the blonde schoolteacher (shudder).

4:29 to 6:25
7:15 to 11:07
———————-They want to possess everything and everyone, decide for everyone who they really are, name everything and everyone, classify everything and everyone, know what everybody think and wishes t be able to stop them from getting it, hide and transform everything and everyone that they imagine could be seen as better than them

Here she is again as the poster child of what you say above:

she starts up at 3:54

(she does not get it and she doesn’t need to, that’s pretty much her message. A “schoolteacher” for God’s sake.)
———-
I’ll end with something pleasant. Contrast the obstinate ignorant woman with the woman who directly precedes her just before 3:54. That woman understands life is change. She understands the ideas that B.R. expressed.

I generally see nothing wrong with children playing make believe and incorporating other cultures into their play whether they actually share any blood with the heroes of their imaginations or not If kids want to be Persian princes, Gypsies, Barbary Pirates, English Butlers, Chinese Kung Fu Monks… whatever, I say let them.

Now the tricky part comes in when it’s no longer a question of just pretend. things can get complicated. For example, a lot of Blacks are just as guilty of Native America appropriation as Whites are. Notice I say APPROPRIATION not PERSECUTION. Too many Blacks that I know have never had any serious research done to verify their family rumors, and yet will swear on a stack of Bibles that they are 1/24th Cherokee! We’ve all seen this.

But then the example with your son begs the question, just how Indian do you have to be before you’re a “real Indian?” Is it the one drop rule? What do the tribes themselves say? Interesting 🙂 I’d like to know what others might think?

Jefe, I think each person , who might face your dilema , has to know at what point they are wearing it on their sleeve as oposed to dealing with it on the inside…are they leading with that in their conversations, bragging about it, using at “look at me”?

Or are they really searching for the truth inside themselves, prepared to not be accepted or not deemed worthy , by family even . But, secure enought to know that the only person who really counts in knowing what is true for them is looking at themselves in the mirror…

King, I think he doesnt want to do it to be accepted by a “tribe”, or think that that is his total identity…by the way , he is 24, so, its not a kids thing but it is an artistic thing he wants to do…he is a performer. He knows that the Indian part of him is only a part, and a smaller part compared to other parts ….but, he will also dress up on stage in a Lampion hat, which were bandits in the Noerhteast of Brazil with an infamous reputation…he definitly isnt that , but, is using that identity in his performance as a tribute to the Northeast and its culture…

Interesting what you said about other black people that you know and their Indian notions….I think that for sure there is a certain amount of Indian blood in some black Americans. In Brazil, which is 50 percent Afro descendant, maybe 60 percent of the people have some kind of Indian blood , for sure some much smaller than others. And, I think the black American community plays out in a somewhat similar way, maybe not the exact percentage, but as an undelying presence

Indian influence on our cultures is much more subtile than we perceive. Its all over our dinner table, and, the musical aspects are very subtile and not as dominate as the African rhythms and the European harmony, but , it is in there. I perceived this with some Brazilian carnival expresions like “Caboclino” which is a referance to the Indian culture in Brazil but has more of an African groove. Indians just dont have the same groove,and, their “one , one one” time feel seems to be similar from American Indians down to Brazilian Amazon Indians, even if the way they do it looks differant, the beat concept is very similar….to my ears

The whole DNA thing is a little tricky. I had an mtDNA test done about 5 years ago. I am no expert by any means, however, from what I do know, mitochondrial DNA does not reveal “race’, but rather it reveals one’s early, direct female maternal origins. Mitochondrial DNA is passed from women to all their offspring. In other words males receive mtDNA, but they do not pass it on to their own offspring. Men pass on Y-DNA, but to their sons only

So, what the above quote means is that a direct maternal early female ancestor of 61% of Puerto Ricans was Taino. That the ‘race’ of one of our early, though direct, ancestors was Amerindian, it cannot be taken to mean that her present day descendants are also genetically Amerindian being that mtDNA only accounts for a small percentage of one’s total DNA. We all have lots and lots of ancestors who are not accounted for by this fraction of our genetic profile.

I myself have epicanthic eye folds, high cheek bones, longish torso / shortish legs, shovel-shaped incisors (a feature of ‘Sinodonty’, which is also common among East Asians), second toe longer than the big toe — all features which are said to be Amerindian traits. I have been mistaken for (or told that I appear to be): East Asian, South Asian; a Sabra, ” an Italian with a tan”, Sicilian, Egyptian, Hawaiian and Puerto Rican. Yet, my own mtDNA originated with one woman who lived in East Africa 70,000 years ago My more recent ancestry definitely includes sub-Saharan African, but it also definitely includes indigenous North American and European as well.

The test to find out one’s own genetic breakdown as to ‘race’ (ie, the race of one’s more recent ancestors), I believe is referred to as an ‘autosomal DNA’ test.

Its funny, My family moved from Chicago, after I left hme, and they moved to New Mexico , and the house they bought, which is up for sale now since my Mom died, is right next to some immence Indian land. So when I would visit them, i would be right next to Indian life. And, I also always felt an Indian curse on me , saying “get out, this place is not for you…” . Not because Im white, just because of what is…because where I live now, they discovered a very very old Indian site , very close by right on the beach, and , I always felf very welcomed by those spirits…they love me, they gather around me and give me hugs

“King, I think he doesnt want to do it to be accepted by a “tribe”, or think that that is his total identity…by the way , he is 24, so, its not a kids thing but it is an artistic thing he wants to do…he is a performer. He knows that the Indian part of him is only a part, and a smaller part compared to other parts ….but, he will also dress up on stage in a Lampion hat, which were bandits in the Noerhteast of Brazil with an infamous reputation…he definitly isnt that , but, is using that identity in his performance as a tribute to the Northeast and its culture…”

Ah… forgive me. I should have asked how old your son was. But again, the stage is a magical place or make believe as well. However, when you’re an adult I think the requirements for due diligence are more pressing. He doesn’t need my advice, of course, so I’m just stating my opinion.

– When performing in portrayal of another culture, I think it’s necessary to do thorough research. Know the culture you are enacting and know it from the source–actual people from that culture. Get the history right, cross check with as many academic sources as possible.

– Explain to everyone what you are doing, where you got it from, and why. Be sensitive to response to your portrayals and allow yourself to be teachable, particularly by the members of that culture.

– Take the time to be authentic. If you want to reflect another culture, then respect them enough to learn their ways—don’t try to short-cut it with YOUR VERSION of their ways.

– Be humble, and don’t ever consider yourself to be an “expert” on somebody else’s culture – No matter how much you think you know about it.

I think that by keeping things like this in mind, one can avoid the trap of appropriation and redefinition of other people’s culture.

I guess we see here some signs of very old way of seeing ones enemies. That is, the romans respected the germans for their military prowess and actually emplyed them as mercenaries (in imperial guard for example) even though they did not like them as a people or culture. They respected the celts of Ireland and High Lands as warriors even though they saw them only as savages etc. Tacitus writes many times positively about the enemies IF they were brave enough.

In 1346 blind duke of Luxemburg was litterally dragged into the killing field in the battle of Crecy between the english and the french under his orders. He wanted to use his sword one more time and the only way was that this blind man was escorted directly to the melee. He was killed but after the battle the english washed his body and escorted it to the enemy in honorable manner with all the shows of a hero. In their mind he had been an enemy to be killed but he had been a brave warrior so all the respect.

In very early stage of the conquest of North America, some whites began to see the natives in romantic light, even though less human or as the Other. This developed into a weird cultlike phenomena where some believed that the natives were like Adam and Eve like figures living free and happy life in the Nature. Thus was born the romantic savages. Fenimore Cooper is perhaps the best known of this, The Last of the Mohicans etc. There are good and bad natives and noble and savage natives, cruel and the brave, honorable and devilish etc. BUT there is the Hawk Eye, the best native of them all, who was adopted into the tribe BUT is a white man living like a native.

Some european settlers who had lived in the most remote areas of Europe before moving to the colonies got along pretty well with the natives because the way of living was recognisable for both, but pretty quickly these comparisons were wiped out from the records and those living too close the native style were branded as renegades or “gone native” by the officials. The idea was not to assimilate but to conquer and replace.

The idea of assimilation in to the native culture did not dissappear though. It lived on and since many native nations could and did adopt white children etc.the romantic idea never dissapeared. It live on and still lives on. Some how, for what ever reason, it is this romantic idea which fuels the whole phenomena of fake indians. It has nothing to do with the reality but everything to do with the romantic idea of the Native Americans some how representing the Real spirit of USA, which of course is the country that stole their lands, killed them and their culture and destroyed whole ways of life.

Airborne troops still yell Geronimo when they jump from the planes, because their idea is that Geronimo did what they do, that is fight directly among the enemy on the hostile ground surrounded by the enemy and still be victorious. That is, of course, a load of poop, since Geronimo fought on HIS land against the invaders, not vice versa. But he was the tuffest enemy the whites knew and while being a murderer and dangerous savage in their eyes, he also gained respect, particulary after he surrendered in desperation.

Somehow there is the whole tradition of romantizising ones enemies, reflecting ones own rebellious or counter culture ideas on them, and this older tradition of respecting the enemy warriors who put up a good fight. Perhaps…

I mean, how many of us when playing as kids wanted to be indians, not those boring soldiers or others? What was our idea of indians that made us to do so? I, for one, always wanted to be the guy who sneaked in the woods without a sound like shadow and run around the clumsy soldiers.

Did I reflect my own wishes in to that and how, and more importantly, where did I get those wishes and ideas which I placed on the indian I was playing so seriously that I slept outside on our self made teepee in a small patch of forest in the edge of the city with my friends?

What was the image of the indian that made me think, few thousand miles away, that they were the good guys? In western they attacked and were the enemy but we cheered them on. We wished that they would win in at least one movie, but of course, they never did. Why we were seeing them like that? Where we did get that idea of romantic warrior?

I guess we see here some signs of very old way of seeing ones enemies. That is, the romans respected the germans for their military prowess and actually emplyed them as mercenaries (in imperial guard for example) even though they did not like them as a people or culture.

Well… eventually yes. But there was a very looooong history from the first Germanic campaigns to the Gothic Wars where the Romans were simply cutting down the Germans like they were grinding sausages. Eventually the Germans learned to be much better warriors as a direct result of their exposure to centuries of lopsided defeat at the efficient hands of the legions. It was either adapt or be completely wiped out, so they were able finally to develop weapons and armor that were capable of competing with Rome. However, it is usually noted that the Germans at their peak would have been no match for the Empire in it’s heyday. Nevertheless, however crude they were, the Germans were always brave in battle.

There’s something mythical about NA culture, and everyone wants a piece. It’s an ancestry whites can claim without diluting their whiteness, and blacks can claim to dilute their blackness. While I think a lot people do have it, it’s harder to fact check someone’s claim that they are NA, than some other races.

“Fake Indians are people who claim to be American Indian but are not.”

Of course they’re not, American Indians don’t exist. Indian Americans and Native Americans do though.

At least forgo “indian” for native american and or aboriginals. Tired of hearing that stupid term.

@Kind of like the mona lisa

‘It’s an ancestry whites can claim without diluting their whiteness, and blacks can claim to dilute their blackness.”

BAM, hit the nail on the head to be honest. Back in the 20s/30s/40s/50s/60s being Native or half was deemed undesirable, something that stained your white heritage. Now a days though it’s been completely reversed, now NOT being of partial Native heritage (or any heritage really, but mainly Native) is seen as dull, bland and not with the “times”.

It’s sad really.

I can’t really comment though towards the “blacks can claim to dilute their blackness.” as I don’t have many black friends, and the ones I do are mainly non mixed.

@Truth

“This shows us that whites are not happy being white”

Of course not, how can they be if they’re condemned on a daily basis for being white? In this day and age being seen as strictly “white” is to be looked down upon, hence the stupidity of massive tanning even though it’s killing them.

They’re not happy being seen as white, take a gander why. Hence the other need to embrace foreign cultures to the point of they wish they were them and not white. You see some people around the world who aren’t white, wanting to be white but god forbid some poor bastard feels the opposite and happens to be white.

Which is why no one is ever going to be happy, not even when most of the West is so damn diverse that whites are pushed out. In the end it’s better to NOT be white, and to embrace the darker kin, because in the end whites will go extinct, well figuratively of course. They’ll be around, just a darker shade than before.

“The condemnation is about being DELUSIONAL and RACIST … embracing WHITENESS”

But I was called out for “embracing” whiteness when I’ve never ever heard such a term used in my life, nor would I even know what that is.

“embracing WHITENESS (aka the White Racial Frame). Just ask Zeke… ”

So in essence, “I don’t dislike white people, I dislike people who think and act white (as abagond so put it) but is that statement no different then the motto of white racists who like blacks who are more like them? (for example, Thomas Sowell) who many call an uncle tom (something I find childish).

All well and good , King, your opinion, but, how is your opinion going to stack up against this giant celbration in Recife about the Indians?

What do you have to say to all these people , who are celibrating Indian culture, but, they obviously have very little valid information or any true referance to the Brazilian Indian culture? Are you going to condemn them all ? How does your opinion stack up about my son doing the James Brown and copping the splits in his performance ?

Those people in that celibration have about the same ratio mixture of my son as far as Indian blood…the beat they are doing cant be found in real Brazilian Indian celibrations…there is absolutly no attempt at being authentic…or brining any real attention at the plight that Indians have faced in Brazil and Brazil has a real ugly history past and present at dealing with Indians also.

King, again, respecting your opinion, I have to go back to art doesnt really make you stamp a passport to go through cutoms to be able to express it….how are we going to deal with Jim Maplerthorpe’s peeing on the crucifix foto? Does he offend? Absolutly…is it still art and expresion?…Absolutly

Is writing a book pretending you are someone else art or valid? No. Its done with false pretence, lying and making comercial profit with those lies

I have to seperate that and building a teepee in the back yard and sleeping in it

My son, would not be trying to bring attention to Indian problems and authenticity…he is expressing something about himself that is inside of him and he has every right to do that…in my opinion..without having to pass out broshures or have a big explanation about what he is doing at every concert or on a record cover

check out this gigantic celibration in Brazil about Amazon folk culture…its so un authentic as far as really being true to the Braziian Indian culture of the area…but they are expressing themselves…what are we suposed to make of that?

I just dont really like scrutinising art and culture too much to psycho analyse all the motives behind it…which I consider differant than a media barrage that constantly feeds lies and misrepresents the history and reality of a people

Like I said, I think hippies building a teepee and doing Indian culture in Taos, isnt my cup of tea, but, just maybe a couple of them might go a little farther and discover that Indians in New Mexico are extremly poor and have really high incidences of alcoholism and maybe a couple f them might try to make a differance because of their affinity for them. Having affinity is the first step towards discovering the humanity of a people and could lead to the next step of what to do to help them

So who am I to scrutinise them and critisize these white hippies for doing what they do? Its just not what I would do, although, I did play cowboy and Indian as a kid , being the Indian as much as the cowboy…heck, I grew up in a state with an Indian name and live in a city now with an Indian name…Indian names have always been around me in the Americas

I wasn’t directly attributing your quote to Bulanik but commenting on Bulanik’s development of it. Nevertheless, I take your point as it could easily be misconstrued. You do however raise some interesting questions regarding my own comment.. Lets start with this one:

“…I have a question: what do you make of those people who are classified as white in the racial vision of humanity but do not classify themselves as such ?…”

I personally look to how they seek to define themselves first irrespective of how I might be tempted to define them. You can experience this many times when coming across various shades Black people and you learn not to make the basic assumptions based solely on what you physically see.You can have a extremely light skinned person who will immediately identify or associate themselves with the culture of Black – in all manners verbally and behaviorally.

Then you can have a very dark skinned person, who one might assume would identify as Black, who through the same mannerisms – verbally and behaviorally – would eschew association and identification with the culture of Black indirectly associating and identifying with the culture of white.

So the answer to the question is not so much what do I make of people of any description but what do they make of themselves. I prefer to allow people to make their own choice then I work with that.

“..I am trying to develop on this following your remark, because it either means that you envisage “whites” as a racial natural reality of light-skinned people (all of them suffering from inherent and innate “unhappiness” and there really is no hope…), or you omitted the fact of self-determination and therefore possible self-happiness…”

This is a good point. Yes you are right. I omitted this last part of the possibility of self-determination and self-happiness. My reason being, generally speaking, when engaging in these discussions about the many hidden and unacknowledged pathological disorders of white people (the topic of this post being one of them) it almost seems impossible to get to a stage of acknowledgment and acceptance that this is actually an issue worth studying. Just like so many debates on the various multifaceted ways in which the living phenomenon of racism manifests itself but can still be denied the reality of an existence.

The first stage is acknowledgement and acceptance there is an issue that needs to be addressed. Getting to this stage still remains the toughest hurdle.But let me make some comments on what I believe the next stage to be for those white people successfully (and there are many to be found) navigating this first hurdle.

The second stage is about owing up to your true past history with all its negative and positive accomplishments.Acknowledging and realizing that the negative accomplishments have been purposely and intentionally hidden away from you to give you a false feeling of fullness, superiority, privilege and purpose. Rejecting this as the cause of a great feeling of present emptiness and instead of trying to fill this with more negative accomplishments – fake ethnic identities, cultural appropriations etc…simply because you can – No. Seek to fill this with positive accomplishments like giving back to and crediting those peoples you believe have been cruelly robbed of their accomplishments in the past. Seeking to fill that void of emptiness by challenging what you now see as an artificially controlled and imposed imbalance in a society which seeks to elevate the superiority of white people over every other peoples.

So yes there is hope and the possibility of self-determination and therefore possible self-happiness for white people but only if they can make it to the second stage!

One other point which I think is worth mentioning in this discussion about imitating other ethnic groups. We need to move past this false notion of pure races. Its a scientific and intuitively false idea of our being. We all have the memories of multiple peoples encoded in our DNA. The type science refers to as “junk DNA” and we can all draw on this to recall past lives experienced as many different peoples. Obviously accepting this reality will require major readjustments into how we ALL see ourselves.

Perhaps if we accepted and were ready to come to terms with this there would be no need for fake ethnic identities or cultural appropriations.

By the way, King, I think in many essences, I am in total agreement with you, I just bring to your attention my differance on artistic expresion because I think its wrong to start putting arbitrary goal posts on what is ok in artistic expresion and isnt…Dont let other people make you think you have to set some arbitrary goal posts because they are over pshyco analysing why an artist is doing something and whether they have some kind of “right ” to do so or not, or some kind of permision or rules about whether they should or not….

And, if we are going to start scrutinising people who dress up as Indians, then, since this title of the thread doesnt mention any one country, it is absolutly anemic and weak if we dont analyse an immence country like Brazil. Look at all those people who dress up as Indians, maybe have a little Indian blood in them, but, sure dont belong to a tribe, they are about as authentic as an Idaho white high school doing a play and having people dress up as Indians, yet the Brazil celibrations are just enormous in size in comparison. The beats both those huge celibrations have are much more African, there is a huge comercial market around the Amazon area celibration I brought in and they sell songs made over those African style beats…and sell huge amounts of clothes for the celibration, Im pretty sure they dont go to the Indian tribes on the reserve areas in Brazil

I just distance myself from arguments that over scrutinize what rules an artist has to adhere to , to make self expresion

I remember touring Germany with a black Puerto Rican. We were sitting at a bar , and he started getting really deep and saying that he knew he had been here before, when he never had traveled there before…he knew something inside himself that “felt” something very deeply about being there, a deep affinity that I with my little 10 percent or less German blood ( I was just tickled to discover German dark beer) didnt feel at all….did I think it was not cool for him or that he should ask permision to feel that way or express it in his art? Of course not, he can take that affinity as far as Im concerned and express it any way he wants…sure, we have the right to say we dont like it because its too aggresive ,or, not our taste, or express why we might think its wrong, as the Christians certainly will do with Maplethorpe…but, I think we have to look at art and artists and expresion in people even if they arent profesionals, differantly than we are going to scrutinize people who deceive us that they are something they are not and lie about it and comecialise it to make money..or media trends that perpetuate lies and bury cultures and dismiss them or dont give credit to the true innovators.

actualy, a comment is in moderation so here is the absolutly enourmous celibration in Partins in the Amazon area, an enormous celibration that people dress up as Indians who have about the same percentage as my son and dont belong to a tribe , and are about a authentic as my son is in what he would do..if my son has to follow some kind of rules of expresion for sure all these people have to come under the same scrutiny

This discussion and reading these comments have proven to me what I’ve long suspected:

Whites are always willing to distance themselves from their “whiteness” when it suits them because their white privilege ALLOWS them to do so. When it’s convenient, they use the skin colour advantage for their betterment, for money and fame and for attention.

when desperately trying to dodge a racist comment/ action, they bring out that “Indian Grandpa in the Closet” for deflection. Can you imagine how absurd it would be if blacks did that? What if I, a mixed woman with brown skin, denied my African heritage? Not only would I be branded an outcast but the term Tragic Mulatto comes to mind. Tiger Woods anyone?

The reason why this phenomena occurs, is because of the white skin colour privilege that allows whites to slip in and out of whatever they wish when their discontent of themselves hits too close to home.

I am totally with you on this. I think “stage 1” cannot be completed without “stage 2” in your description.

The first stage is acknowledgement and acceptance there is an issue that needs to be addressed. Getting to this stage still remains the toughest hurdle.But let me make some comments on what I believe the next stage to be for those white people successfully (and there are many to be found) navigating this first hurdle.

The second stage is about owing up to your true past history with all its negative and positive accomplishments.Acknowledging and realizing that the negative accomplishments have been purposely and intentionally hidden away from you to give you a false feeling of fullness, superiority, privilege and purpose. Rejecting this as the cause of a great feeling of present emptiness and instead of trying to fill this with more negative accomplishments – fake ethnic identities, cultural appropriations etc…simply because you can – No. Seek to fill this with positive accomplishments like giving back to and crediting those peoples you believe have been cruelly robbed of their accomplishments in the past. Seeking to fill that void of emptiness by challenging what you now see as an artificially controlled and imposed imbalance in a society which seeks to elevate the superiority of white people over every other peoples.

Adhering to “whiteness” automatically means denying the negative and the cruelty towards others in the European expansion. “Why do we have to constantly go back to the past ?” they say.

I began to consciously know about my “absence” of adherence to whiteness when (I was a teenager) I started asking myself questions about “how come they want me to believe that Egypt is not in Africa ?” and all the rest that goes with it (including Queen Tiye being “a leucoderm”) and “what does it means to be an “explorer” and a “discoverer” when you are “exploring” and “discovering” places that are already occupied by other people ?”
It had to imply that you do not consider your own self on the same level as those “others”…

@ B.R. The info you’re providing and the feelings you are expressing are very interesting in the sense that they show you belong to a syncretic society. The epitome of it being the sentiments you express as to your links with the souls of the ancient dwellers of the place you now live in. You don’t possess the place, you obviously consciously share it.

You are showing that the use of “costumes” is definitely linked to “customs” (as the etymology shows) and is different from the use of “disguise” which is the negation of “customs”.

Both words mean “in the means of”, “in the ways of”, “-wise”, but “costume” is positive, as in “in accordance with the person/way you imitate”, whereas “dis-guise” is the negation of the “manner” you are copying. In French and English, and I guess there are similarities Brazilian, “dis-guise” means “modify to deceive”.

What you are describing is “costuming” (re-viving customs in a respectful manner), whereas what Abagond’s post is referring to is “disguising” as in “hiding truth”…

“SW6
Can someone (who knows their shit!) say a little about who/what the Carib Indians are? Is anyone aware of a concise but good history of the Caribbean prior to the Transatlantic Slave Trade?

Are the Carib Indians essentially just Indians of the Americas (but located far South), just as the more well known North American Indians are understood as Indians of the northern region of the Americas?”

Linda says,

Yes, the Tainos (Arawak, Lokono) and Carib Indians are/were native Amerindians who lived in South America and came up north and populated the islands in the Caribbean and these were the people who Columbus met.

Before Columbus, the Caribs (who called themselves Kalinya, Kalihna or Galibi) were strong military-wise and they would raid the Arawak villages for the women. Because they were strong fighters, they managed to come through somewhat intact against the Spanish and other European invaders.

The Caribs still live in South America, like in Suriname, Brazil, and Guyana, and the Caribbean, the island of Dominica as an intact indigenous ethnic group, living in their own territories (and they intermixed with other groups)

Both the Tainos and Caribs, helped the Africans in Caribbean and South America to escape and fight against the Europeans (the Maroons)

The Maroon nations still carry the names of the original African ethnic groups that formed them back in 1600’s and they still follow the customs of the original Africans.

In Suriname, there are Maroons and Amerindians still living in their own territory. They’ve been autonomous since the 1700’s, the Europeans got tired of the guerilla wars and signed treaties, seperating European controlled land from the Maroons and Amerindians.

but currently, they are having a hard time because they are being persecuted by outsiders and the government, who want to take their land.

Abagond, I think Taylor Lautner (Twilight) should be added to the list. In Australia, it’s crime. There are people who look like Nicole Kidman who claim to be Natives and are rewarded for it with Literary awards, grants, etc.

Maybe that’s the most insulting part. The real Natives get no benefits for being Natives, but the fake ones get fame, money and book deals for it.

Cornlia, I get that the thread is about fake Indians and not about people who dress up as Indians…

And I want to make it clear, I wasnt really arguing Kings points , I was making the point to all about my son, scrutinising art or play, and, also, that if we are going to scrutinise people who dress up as Indians, Im sorry, these people are doing the same thing. They are the mix of my son, not in a tribe , there is comercialism in these events that doenst go to the reservation, and , no , I dont really see the differance…and I dont condemn white people for dressing up as Indians, I condemn fake Indians who lie and deceive the public and try to make money off of it or status.I condemn a media that in general purpetuates the lies, and not giving credit to the real innovators and covers up other real cultures and just doesnt show them…that is a crime to me, not an artist dressing up,

You see, Cornlia, if we start dogging white people for dressing up as Indians, who is going to be next to get dogged for dressing up as someone ? I dont like the logic behind it..

Its all for the sake of discusion , right, just want to point out again, you are kind of getting hung up on semantics.

I wasn’t commenting against what you were saying, B.R., but the thing is you may not have seen the way some people “play” out their disguise… I don’t think it’s as “respectful” as the celebrations you are referring to…

@King “They are basically Asians, far removed from their origins.”
Haha, no. If anything, Indians were from an ancient Eurasian group, much like modern-day Asians and Europeans descend from ancient Eurasians and are therefore their own people. We’re all Africans far removed from our origins. Better yet, we’re all primates far removed from our pre-human origins.

By the way, King, I think in many essences, I am in total agreement with you…

And I, for my part, am not saying that your son should not perform his art. I’m just giving general guidelines on the subject.

I just bring to your attention my differance on artistic expresion because I think its wrong to start putting arbitrary goal posts on what is ok in artistic expresion and isnt…

Well, I wouldn’t say “arbitrary.” This isn’t just random rules and considerations. There is thought, respect, reverence, and kindness, guiding these suggestions.

Dont let other people make you think you have to set some arbitrary goal posts because they are over pshyco analysing why an artist is doing something and whether they have some kind of “right ” to do so or not, or some kind of permision or rules about whether they should or not…

I can’t see how you can avoid it.

What if some White artists decided to perform a blackface play called “Jigaboo” where the main character was a jolly Negro called “Porch Monkey?” Would you say: “Well, normally this would be offensive, but since we’re calling it “Art,” it would be dangerous for anyone to speak against it?” If that is true then we must all apologize for all of the stereotypes we’ve fought against for so many years as most of them were portrayed in the the name of Art of some kind.

However, I’m also not saying that every time someone dresses up like an Indian, it’s offensive, but what I AM saying it that in every case, it should be The Indians themselves who decide if the portrayal of their culture is offensive or not. And if they have never really been asked, then the number of people who participate in the costume party cannot legitimize it. If the Indians are, by and large, OK with it, then there’s no problem.

I think the essence of this thread is not weather some one dresses up as some one else, acting or dancing or what ever, but the fact that some claim that they are whom they imitate. In opera for example people dress up as Othellos and Romeos and Julias but nobody gives a toot because we all read that code. We all know: ok, this is opera and that fat lady screaming on top of her lungs is not actually japanese geisha and that fat tenor is not actually egyptian etc. We can read that cultural code.

Just look at how russians have been portrayed in american films, litterature, tv, commercials, comic books etc. all trough the ages! And yet, nobody gives a poop about that. Why? Because they are white? No. I think it is because we all can see that those are not real russians.

BUT if someone dresses up as native american and claims to be one, then he is no longer acting or playing etc. That individual is actually claiming the whole culture as his/hers, the whole identity with everything it contains. And that is whole another ball game indeed.

Of course natives and africans etc. can say that this is not right in a film, that this is not who we are or this is not our culture, and in many cases it is more than correct to do so. Of course, if any art is racist, it should be pointed out. There is racist art and has been, we all know that. But if I wear a bonnet and war paint, not a single person takes me seriously because no matter how serious I am, everyone can see that I am not native american. BUT if I insist, claim, that I am, then I become a fake indian. Faking it. Stealing the cultural heritage and everything else. And that is what this thread is all about: faking.

I agree with both of you on the power and usage of words. But I would say this in reference to Bulanik’s comment:

“…I would go further and say, that those who wish to use the medium of words – but generally do not care too much about words, or their impact, much – reveal they know what they say is not “innocent”, but say it anyway, all the time pronouncing ” it does not matter.”

This is not only insulating, stubborn, and also — aggressive….”

More often than not people use words in ignorance rather than aggressive knowledgeable intent. And even when they do use it in this way they do so still from a place of ignorance not fully appreciating or comprehending their real meaning. This is not to say that people who use words in this way should be let off or their usage ignored. It means those of us more finely attuned to the power and usage of words need not be so personally offended or threatened.

Words in themselves are neutral. Their power comes from the meaning we collectively give to them and how we take that meaning to personally apply or not apply to us. .

“Culture never exists in a vacuum, it’s never been“pure”, nor should it be. It’s ever-changing and evolving.”

Agreed.

“Have you noticed that Indian (not Native American) culture seems to be the current “flavour” to imitate and “commodify” at the moment?”

Yes, now as well as back in the 1960s, I believe.

“The Artist is not a special breed of person!
And, “Art” is not the escape-hatch to wriggle into and slide away from normal responsibilities and accountability. It is not a shield to stand behind, either.”

Art should be free to critique society, but society should be equally free to critique art—It’s a two way street. Artist should be protected in the sense that soldiers will not break down the doors of their studios, confiscate their paintings, and burn them in the public square. Singers should not be arrested and dragged offstage for singing lyrics that criticize the government or predominant religious institutions.

However, artists are not, and should not be immune from Art criticism. People should be free to decide for themselves what is Art and what is not. The artist does not get to define what is Art for everyone else. Artists can use their gifts to pressure societies to change. However, society can also exert the pressure of criticism upon the artist to affect change, if her work is deemed to be offensive, unfair, abusive, or inaccurate.

The right to criticize and define what is Art is just as important a freedom as the right to create Art. But many artists don’t understand this and believe that they should exist in an environment free of criticism, rules, or pressure of any kind.

Here is my take on it….lets look at “black face ” and “minstrel”…it was some kind of expresion…what becomes valuable about it is, it does give us a great insight into the mind of the people who did it..in that sence, its invaluable…like looking at what the kind of art that was championed in Nazi Germany…you can see the shallowness of it , yet, we have to recognise the depth of Wagner

When we find out these writers are fake, their expresion becomes shallow, they lose all the depth that their deceipt tried to portray as valid..

Intent is everything….I already said Chritians have the right to hate Maplethorpe and criticise it…that isnt the question

I look at this debate we are having and think of Jefe, and his dilemna, and here is what I say, yes, he wont be accepted by a tribe he thinks he belongs to, yes, his family wont accept him, he has to live with that.

But, if he knows deep inside that he has Indian blood, what is the only thing he has left after he looks in the mirror and can accept who he is on the inside ?

Self expresion, He can write a poem, he can write a song, he can paint a picture, he can make a video, he can wear something that will give him some feeling of identity, not to go in front of his family and say “look at me”, but, to take it into his personal life to feel himsefl inside . He can surround his living space with Indian art…

What I wont do is hold people up to doubel standards, condemn some white hippies in Taos for building a teepee but saying the celibrations in Brazil get a pass…They are both ok in my eyes.

Jefe would have a right in my eyes to dress up as an Indian if he wants to

Im much more concerned about the way the media has a small group of people sitting around in a meeting saying they arnt going to produce some honest work about Indians and theiir culture and contributions because “it wont sell”

But, I distance myself from the finger pointing pshyco analysis about what people can express in their own self expresion, this kind of arbatrary making up the rules about what is ok and what is not for how people should express themselves

This isnt about looking at someones self expresion and saying they dont like it…its about some people here want to point fingers and say its “wrong” and shouldnt be done…without having really forged it in a struggle like Malcom X forged “black” into a new meaning based on that struggle…What? the struggle of whether dressing up as an Indian is right or wrong? Something Ive proved without a doubt that happens in a big way in Brazil, not being authentic, with comercialism being involved by people who most of them arnt in a tribe…all the things used as criticism of the Americans who might have some Indian blood and want to self express themselves and the white people who might want to have some affinity for a moment?

Its arbatrary criticism .these same people want to judge people on what words are to be used, just out of the whim of how they personaly feel about it, not on some international referendum on it…

And then look at Oyan, who, because some people here took this thread about fake Indians and turned it into a criticism of “dress up”, comes in and sais maybe his family involved in the “New Orleans Indian” tradition, might be an example of that….

When in fact, the traditions his family are doing might also be linked to African traditions and have similarities to a traditoin going on in Recife Pernambuco

So he has to feel that something might be wrong or that it is an “apropriation ” of Indian culture when it may be much more than that…this is the danger I feel in just arbitrarily deciding we have to condemn ” dressing up as Indians”….There may be much more involved than some surface criticism can evaluate….intent of each situation is what needs to be examined..not just blanket make up the rules

Yes, everything is relative. To culture, to opinions, to policies, to attitudes, to history…
Then what do we agree on ? Do we continue doing thing that hurt others (even though we KNOW it does ?) for the sake of art ? Is “art” more important than how people feel when their own being is at stake ? (Take for example Makode Linde’s cake)

I’m just asking the questions, I’m not criticizing. I think it’s a very interesting and profound topic.

Also, even “art” is all relative. “Art” in Africa, at least in the past, now it is being increasingly considered in the same perspective as in Europe (I don’t know about art in other cultures). is/was part of life, part of every day actions, part of making things… It adds a sacred aspect to life. Dancing was (and still is) a way of expressing/accompanying many things in every day life. There is/was no “stage” or “room” for art, art was part of it all. The masks that Europeans/Americans now keep (HIDE) in their museums were not works of art per se, but spirits of/in the cultures, part of it, and such an important part. Taking them away was one of the worst things Europeans did to the cultures they invaded and colonized. You can find the masks in Carnival, but where has the whole meaning gone ? At least in Caribbean and Brazilian carnivals, there might be something there that remains of the original spirit(s)…

The modern (or not so modern ?) European take on art is to separate it from life, to make it something outside of things. Classify it, like everything else. Everything in its box.

As a matter of fact, they do worse than hide masks. They SHOW them. For instance, there is a mask in the Branly museum in Paris that belongs to a Bamileke village in Cameroon. That mask should never have been seen or exposed, it should have remained inside the “Chefferie” and had a role in there. Nobody except the Chief and notables should have access to it. Now they expose it as “Bamileke art”, which it is NOT. It is a SPIRIT.

Also, a few years ago, I saw this doc about a couple of people from an island in the Pacific (French-speaking but I can’t remember which one – so it’s not just Africa that is concerned here-) who had learnt that one of their culture’s masks was inside a box in the back rooms of the Musée de l’Homme in Paris. They asked to come and have a look at it. Which they were “allowed” to do (that’s where I start boiling inside). When they finally see it, the curator insists on staying with them BECAUSE THEY MIGHT BREAK IT ! They wanted to perform a ceremony and they also asked to bring it back where it belongs. It was rejected on the ground that “they will not be able to take proper care of it”.

What the …. ???? What ? Their OWN spirit ??? No. I mean, this is the type of stuff that gets me totally infuriated. I always write to those people, but rarely get a reply, or if I do, it’s “we have taken your remark into account”…

Here we have the conflict between “customs” and “disguise”, but in another light.

I think “fake impresions ” of Indian culture in the media and burying the real thing is more damaging than anything…

Americans have no idea of the depth of Indian culture is on their dinner tables….If you just look at corn and understand how much food we buy at a supermarket is made of corn or corn extracts, all of us Americans should dress up as Indians once a month and have a day of honor , corn is really immense in our culture

For me, it was never the fact that the white Americans copied black American culture , the truth is, we all copy each other and assimilate things from differant cultures into our own…its the fact the white man copied it, lied and said it wasnt black culture, comercialised it, made more money off of it, and buried and hid the real geniuses of the culture…and , on top of that, dished up racism, discrimination, Jim Crow, Klan, lynchings and so on…but, it was never about being bad because white people copied black culture

So , for me, its not that white people want to assimilate some things Indian, its the fake impresions from the main media and the major cultural ommisions that do far more damage

I want to say this , I can say it directly to you Cornlia, I dont think the people who are mentioning the “dress up as Indians ” are being negative, I basicly think the intent is good..I just dont agree, and, it relates directly to how I feel my son can do anything he wants to self express himself about what part of him has Indian blood, until it directly offends or is in major conflict with someone else, and then its case by case situation

Ha, I absolutly catagoricly regect the idea that public criticism has some kind of moral high ground over the artist…

Do you people have any idea how many great artists have been ridiculed and rejected by public criticism , banished to obscurity and after they died they were “discovered” and found to have incredible vision and clarity and humanity in their art

“…Also, even “art” is all relative. “Art” in Africa, at least in the past, now it is being increasingly considered in the same perspective as in Europe (I don’t know about art in other cultures). is/was part of life, part of every day actions, part of making things… It adds a sacred aspect to life. Dancing was (and still is) a way of expressing/accompanying many things in every day life. There is/was no “stage” or “room” for art, art was part of it all. The masks that Europeans/Americans now keep (HIDE) in their museums were not works of art per se, but spirits of/in the cultures, part of it, and such an important part. Taking them away was one of the worst things Europeans did to the cultures they invaded and colonized. You can find the masks in Carnival, but where has the whole meaning gone ? At least in Caribbean and Brazilian carnivals, there might be something there that remains of the original spirit(s)…

The modern (or not so modern ?) European take on art is to separate it from life, to make it something outside of things. Classify it, like everything else. Everything in its box….”

I think what Cornila has said here accurately describes a clear distinction in the way we’ve been taught to perceive art from a Western perspective – Separate, devoid of spirit or consciousness as a thing unto its self. This alone explains why its become OK to “mix and match” and take for granted other peoples sacred cultural expressions. From a Westerner’s perspective they just become things, objects of desire, exotic displays or decorative appendages…fashions like new dance steps…etc..

@ Bulanik

Yes this can be viewed as a form of Western arrogance. But its also ignorance too. More often than not when people display arrogance. They do so based on assumptions they believe are beyond question. – The great white inventor – to use as just one example. The people who would choose to make this argument may do so out of a conscious intent to boast and remind everyone of the superiority of Western cultural people. And they may well proclaim this arrogantly and aggressively to anyone who would dare even challenge it.

But this wouldn’t matter because it still would be built on questionable assumptions and the foundations for those assumptions would always be built on the ignorance of what they don’t, or couldn’t be bothered to, know about.

Its arrogance but its based on ignorance too

Because if it were really true and they were right it wouldn’t be just arrogance. It would be smugness too!

(actualy, I have no desire to make it sound like Im addressing anyone personaly on these points Im making, they are points made to the arguments not the people, sorry for any apearance of personal reaction to anyone….Im thinking more of how I feel in reguards to my son and these arguments, which makes it close to home )

(actualy, I have no desire to make it sound like Im addressing anyone personaly on these points Im making, they are points made to the arguments not the people, sorry for any apearance of personal reaction to anyone….Im thinking more of how I feel in reguards to my son and these arguments, which makes it close to home )

Personally, I did get that… (you were commenting from a perspective that takes your sons work into account and your multiple cultures).
I am also expressing things generally, asking questions mostly.

Except on the sacredness of masks. That, I have no patience or acceptance of explanation too. I think it is ignoble. To keep spirits in boxes or in glass walls. I have no words to express how it makes me feel.

There are two things I really hate: museums (the “collections of ancient artifacts” ones, not the “art” ones) and zoos.

I think they reflect exactly what “whites” / the west has done for several centuries:
– steal
– hide
– use
– remove from nature

in order to possess,
make other cultures look small.
make themselves believe they are the greatness they keep in their walls.

If we were to return all those things to their homes, that’s when we would see the greatness of those cultures, the “masks cultures” would have their spirits back and would be stronger (they know very well why they took them away).

If they (the others) were to come and take from whites/Europeans what is great and/or sacred in their countries (pieces of buildings, the bodies of saints in churches…) , they would all shout “sacrilege !!!” but that’s what they have done to others. Others would say: “oh, but you should react like this really, all we are doing is protect them from you, because your civilization is not strong enough to keep those secure.” “Plus, we want to show how great you are.”

Oyan, thanks for blowing my mind !! Ive seen Mardi Gra Indians on video before, but, these shots are spectacular and prove how unbeleivably similar these two celibrations are , yet, they are so far apart as far as distance , absolutly mind blowing ….I hear right away the grooves the New Orleans Indians are doing is very similar to a groove in Recife called “coco”. Its very Afro diasporic . I would say the last thing you need to worry about is if the New Orleasns Indians are doing something wrong , or apropriating Indian culture…this is culture , as much Afro diasporic as anything, that is extremly valuable and needs to be demonstrated…and that is a very powerful argument as to why no one should be too eager to vamp on “dressing up as Indians”

Cornlia, interesting take on masks and museums. I hadnt thought of that before , but, I think you are right that seeing them in live celibrations in Brazil is the real way they are meant to be worn , and lots get lost in seeing them in a case…

So just to find some ground of agreement here, yes, I think someone prancing around dressed up as an Indian and claiming to be part of a tribe when they arnt, is what is wrong…like these fake Indians that are what the thread is about

Im just concerned about the situation of a person like Jefe, or my son, who have some Indian blood , arnt members of a tribe, but, have a need to express something very real inside of them. And, how Oyan , might even think for a second that possibly the incredible rich Mardi Grau Indians could be classified as apropriating Indian culture when that isnt true at all, its a unuque powerful rich culture that stands on its own even if it uses the title of Indian …

This is why I debate these points, anytime there is a sweeping moral judgement about what is right or wrong about art or expresion, someone gets hurt in the process

I just saw a docu yesterday about really incredible sculptures and masks from Tibet that were all destroyed in the Chinese cultural revolution, because they thought these religious artifacts were so against their moral judgements….heartbreaking

The Talaban destroyed beautiful statues that they deemed moraly wrong

And even close to home, in the black revolution of the USA in the late 60’s, the great black American art of tap dancing was thrown under the bus and deemed to Uncle Tom and too shuffling and smiling for the white man…this unbeleivable AFrican American art has never quite recovered , inspite of Herculean efforts of Gregory Hines and some new young guys like Glover (forgot his first name)..it just has never quite gained respect again for the high art it is….Louis Armstrong was also thrown under the bus for being too Tom in the eyes of the policy makers, thank God, Wynton Marsalis and the Ken Burns docu on jazz helped to shine a bright light on his contributions and genius to restore his honor

It just shows, no matter how noble the aspirations of moral judgements on art and expresion are, they can cross a fine line of posibly doing more damage than good, if they repress and over judge art and the value of its expresion

“Ha, I absolutly catagoricly regect the idea that public criticism has some kind of moral high ground over the artist…”

But it’s a mirror image. The public could just as easily state that they absolutely and catagoricly reject the idea that the artist has some kind of moral high ground over the general public.

“Do you people have any idea how many great artists have been ridiculed and rejected by public criticism, banished to obscurity and after they died they were “discovered” and found to have incredible vision and clarity and humanity in their art”

Then by who’s estimation have these artists become “great?” Many “great” artist are people who the public (or by proxy, the art critics) at some point rejected and then many years (or decades) later accepted and brought to prominence. But their eventual acceptance was just as much dependent on the reaction of the public as was their initial rejection.

Art is relative. The very use of the term “great artist” implies a hierarchy of criticism above creation. After all, every artist who ever created could deem his own talent to be the acme of artistic achievement. However, “greatness” is decided later on by who the public eventually recognizes. There are great artist and not so great artists, That perception itself is the result of artistic criticism and judgement.

Bamileke masks. These ones you can see. Important ones because they are the chief’s honoring his father. There are all kinds of secret and sacred aspects to those, that only knowledgeable people recognize.
A people in South Africa has similar red inverted hats. The dance is not just “dance” as spectacle too.

The way the earth is stomped sometimes makes me thing of Native American dances…

The ones inside the chief’s house (mind the gleaming white pyramids as roofs) you will never see. Unless they are the ones stolen and put in museums.

I am pretty sure there are similarities with Caribbean, Louisianian and Brazilian Carnivals here. In the way they move, dance… I imagine there have been comparative studies of this…

“…I simply don’t think that “white privilege” was something an artist like Sinead O’Connor was prepared to see IN HERSELF, or relinquish, because of that stubborn and addictive need to put herself above all else….”

I understand what you are saying here, Bulanik, with an artist like Sinead as an example. She is basically speaking from her own position and privilege. Which is what she knows. So why would we expect her to speak from any more of an informed position?

That can only come from other more knowledgeably informed Black Artists whom she could then take the lead from. Unfortunately these are not widely known in her knowledge of the Black public arena. I have no doubt after making that statement she would have probably been introduced to a few!

I do’nt know that much about my ‘Mardi Gras’ ‘Indian’ heritage, just what I learned online, and from speaking with relatives who participate in the ceremonies. I think, after viewing many of these Black American ‘Mardi Gras Indian’ celebrations, and examining white/white American appropriation of Indian culture, I think what Abagond is pointing out is the difference between ‘cultural con artists’, and actual cultural participants of a given cultural dynamic/aesthetic.
White/White American appropriation of Native/Indian culture may, be akin to whites dressing up in ‘black face’ for frat parties, holidays etc. For example, a few years ago at the University of California, San Diego, there was a furor when it was discovered that many students were hosting parties that were specifically designed for them to come as stereotype caricatures of urban/hip-hop members. All of the white students were in ‘black face’, wearing ‘urban gear’, afro wigs/braids or ‘dredlocks’; females dressed as ‘video butt shakers’, many/most carrying 40 ounce bottles of alcohol etc. The images of these folk was horrific; I think that this is partly where Abagond is coming from.

Great, Cornlia , love that, love the drum beats , in heavy 6/8…here are some of the direct roots of the influence of West African drumming and religion on Brazil, through the slaves brought from Africa…you can see some masks and a similar beat, with a slight differance

Oyan, absolutly, this thread is about fraud..You shouldnt have to feel any problem at all about the Mardi Gras Indians having done anything wrong or like they are apropriating Indian culture….The Mardi Gras Indians are a more Afro Diasporic expresion with amazing parrallels in Recife , Pernambuco , Brazil, that just blow my mind with the similarities..and it is valuable black American culture

For me, the militant stance that some American Indians have taken, that you hear some of that represented here, is only being hypocriticle if they dont include what is going on in Brazil, and, if they are going to condemn ( which I have read the literature of one American Indian blog so I know this is what they say) someone with some Indian blood for wearing Indian clothes or jewelry , they have to condenm those celibrations in Brazil, which are comercialised, done by people who mostly are not members of a tribe, and are not authentic. Ive even seen some of the comercial musics done on TV with the women dressed in American Indian stereotype costumes with a feather sticking up….and I absolutly dont condemn these Brazilian ceremonies in any way…as I dont condemn my son for expressing what is inside of his blood in anyway that he wants to.

Even I would be skeptical of a white person opening up a teepee, and selling a Shamon cerimony bath for 50 dollars, yet, they have white Brazilians who took over the Santa Daime , ayuasca halucingenetic ceremony , for sure they arent giving anything back to the Indian community…and isnt that the same thing, even on a bigger scale? But, I dont feel I have to condemn that…

I dont walk lock step with just any militant stance that comes down the pike, I dont walk in lock step with womens militant feminism, militant religious fundamentalism, American nationalistic militant views or Brazilian ones…I respect the views of any group and dont judge them as wrong, I just dont agree with anything that comes down the pike….

The truth is, time will tell if people dressing up as Indians is something to be frowned on and scrutinised in a negative way,or if it will be one of those things that has too much grey area to deserve to be cristalised as set in stone…I think there are too many differant ways people do it and each differant way will judge whether it is something shallow or something that isnt demeaning

King, I would never say the artist is above the public or critics, I just absolutly say the public and critics dont have the high moral ground …no one does

The truth is , the way it really goes down is , an artist has tremendous success from the public , and, 50 years after his death, its obvious that his work was shallow and not worth . Its usualy not the case that someone recognised later on gets huge public acceptance, its usualy the experts in the feild that judge that that person’s work is valuable and then it starts getting studied…the major public usualy doesne really care…they arent going out and buying Louis Armstrong records in millions after we find out how much he really did influence all of American culture with his playing and singing…

And, it even shows the value of having artists create works that are filled with stereotypes and racism, that is how we look back and see that Birth of a Nation or Jazz Singer have horrible stereotypes, that make you say ” what was wrong with them…” and at least you can see it blatently. Look at the plethora of films that show the Indians in the worst stereotypes, and this is my opinion as the worst offenders, the major comercial media and the desicians they put out on all of us.

The funny thing is , people look back and see minstrel shows and black face are ridiculous, but they cant see what that is today. Mick Jagger goes out and does a minstrel show , and makes the most money, and no one cares…I sure dont say he is wrong and shouldnt do it…by all means, I want freedom of art , I just dont like it, like I hate Sinead O Connor, Im not surprised she put her foot in her mouth saying what black people ought to do…

King, there is one area that I think Im in agreement with you, if a tribe is in the same area as a school and they protest that there is a demeaning Indian name for the teams or something like that. If a tribe files a petition to have it changed, I could accept that…

But, I just cant buy into blanketing every situation of wearing Indian jewelry or clothes items as demeaning or especialy trying to say my son cant express something that is inside of him because the militant wing of a few group of people make some rules that may need to be taken back to the drawing board and tweaked , anyway.

this part is only a thought of my son, its not even a part of his present show and you can beleive, he has lyrics that will offend some people , but, I hardly think he has to stifle his art just because something he is going to say is going to offend someone…

I mean what if he offends the racist people ?Is the offence then OK?

who is going to be the judge of what is offensive or not? I wouldnt trust many people to be the judge of that who have atitudes Ive seen

Artists should create and time will tell if they are shallow or have something of real value

B.R. I think you may be missing my point. I really have no objection to anyone wearing Indian jewelry! I mean 90% on the jewelry is sold to non-Indian tourists these days for just that purpose. I also don’t have any more objection to people wearing Indian Halloween costumes than I do people dressing up as medieval knights or Egyptian princesses.

Like we’ve all been saying (including yourself) the original post wasn’t about dress-up, its about faking being a Native American for the sake of either making money or exoticize oneself.

The way I see it on the “Art side” is as follows:

1) Celebrating a certain day(s) as an accepted local tradition by dressing up as Indians? Just as harmless as dressing up like an Irishman for St. Patricks Day.

2) Doing your own take on Native American costume and face painting? OK, so long as you’re clear in saying. “This is my own design, inspired by the original Native American traditions.” (In that way it’s not appropriation or redefinition.)

3) Replicating actual Native American designs? Check with the tribe, ask to use their traditions, and ask them if there are any restrictions or requirements. Have the courtesy to respect them enough to allow them to control the use of their own traditions.

4) Don’t allow your own “right” to do what you want become more important than their right to protect what they have.

That’s all I’m saying. It’s really not that onerous, it’s just being polite and respectful, and it doesn’t stop people from being able to perform.

And, Ill tell you, artists become artists because they have something deep inside that they have to say , more than anything in the world thay have to express themselves no matter what the reaction around them.

An artist can not censure themselves or you will not have great art…or actualy any real art. An artist has to express, and that is on any leval, no matter how small or large the scale .I will never ever be a judge of what artists are suposed to say or not , even if I want the right to say I dont like it and why….yes, let the public , and, critics have their say and then let time tell if it has any value

Even more reason to look at the real villain in this story, the major media , since Birth of a Nation, has fostered the worst stereotypes on us all. And its not a fair game .

Where are the Indian voices in the media? Where are their stories ? Its the absence of the Indian voice that sais more than anyone wearing Indian clothes , as the real problem . Amazing how that gets lost to the little indivudual finger pointing and psycho analising.

They will always lie and say that “it wont sell” or some other rationalisation…Its not even for the money, because they could make money on the real Indian stories..its pure power back stabbing politics

Yes, I’m an artist myself.
I paint, I sculpt, I write, I’ve even done some theater.

I’ve got nothing against artistic expression, believe me. I just don’t hold it to be any ‘holier’ than any other expression. We artists are important, we’re just not more important. If that makes sense?

King, absolutly it makes sence…and, I cant tell you and every one else how much it means to discuss these ideas with you , and, you personaly, King, who have always been a wonderful inspiration…

I apologise for indulging this defence for my son…Im so into seeing him find himself….I really enjoyed you mentioning your artistic endeavers , I didnt mean to dwell on it just from an artistic concept.

What I could say is, he also has three tatoos , one Indian, one African, and , one Euro ( for Gods life of me, I have no idea of the meaning and origins, its what he sais…)…so we dont have to make it about art…that kind of makes it permanent on that end….haha

I really liked the definitions you mentioned of where you are coming from

actualy, “militants” was an error on my part , its because the extreme party’s on the right or left, the more vocal extremes, are refferred to as “militantes do PT ” (for, example)…I realise that was my error now…I forgot the term in English

“I apologise for indulging this defence for my son…Im so into seeing him find himself….I really enjoyed you mentioning your artistic endeavers , I didnt mean to dwell on it just from an artistic concept.”

Not at all B.R., I certainly take no offense. I think I agree with most of what you said, and have learned as much as anyone from the discussion.

My very best wishes for your son, who no doubt will do great work, based on stirring his inner passion. Forgive me if I in any way led you to think that I was not in full support of his creative process/journey.

@B.R.
As a white person, I thought a lot of what you have been saying was off the wall, such as “YOU PEOPLE” , which I find very offensive…Also, this idea that what is offensive is somehow subjective as an artist, but does not take into account the impact of the object of derision..or whatever you decide to call it..

Vanishing point,some people like you are trying so hard to find some kind of hiddon psychotic racism in what Im saying that it is almost painful to watch….The people talking on this thread are a wide variety of people, saying “you people” pretty much has no conotation of identity….ecept to address the people on this thread

I sure dont want you to be in charge of who is going to be deemed to express what….I sure dont want to be in charge of that

these kind of points of view only feed my desire to encourage my son to find his own way…you keep probing, Vanishng point, maybe some day you will find somthing that will stick

LOL, I don’t need to keep probing with B.R… as you are too easy.. A man who has not investigated his own racism..but asks me to probe mine..glad you are free, B.R… keep on posting to yourself…freedom..

That point your trying to make here might have been more effective if you actually waited for someone to say something that was truly offensive. As it is, it just looks like you’re pressing a ridiculous point that’s obviously lacks any real substance.

Vanishing point, Im much more willing to look at my racism than you might think .I am very much in agreeing with what Abagond has said about being raised in an American envirnment brings a lot of baggage.

But , the truth is, the last time you actualy came into this blog was trying to acuse me of something racist , when my defence , mistaking a word somebody said, was exactly what you did, mixing up names.You put your foot in your mouth , in a big way, so, Im very skeptical of your acuasations. Its funny, I cant make a statement without getting labled the opressor. Its interesting, I live intimitly with two people who have mixed Indian blood, and, Im responding to the extreme political agenda that a few blogging Native Americans ( which I have seen but not brought in here, and doesnt represent a national Native American position) have put out there to tell people who have some Indian blood what they should do or not…I beleive I have a right to answer that, and, I have brought in youtubes that provide some compelling evidence that there is some room for debate on this subject. Yet, I get dogged by you and classified as the “opressor” by another person, with a vague referance to a Sinead O Connor statement that I am starting to think was directed at me. Which, in the light that if you look at any statement on this blog I have ever made , I have never once told black people what they ought to do , seems strange to me….

I apreciete the observation, King, and only hope to aspire to live up to not saying something offensive

If anything, Vanishing Point illustrated one thing: that people who have nothing to say or not much on a certain topic tend to criticize people instead of ideas.That apparently allows them -maybe- to feel that they have said something and argued on a specific point. It’s a pattern.
The next stage is insults as a response to the targeted person’s reply, which they think “must be upset” (as they attempted to indeed make that person upset). Even if that person’s reply showed no anger or anything, they will find it somewhere (invent it). People who find themselves in those discussions for the first time usually don’t realize it’s pure provocation from ignorance.

“I live intimitly with two people who have mixed Indian blood, and, Im responding to the extreme political agenda that a few blogging Native Americans ( which I have seen but not brought in here, and doesnt represent a national Native American position) have put out there to tell people who have some Indian blood what they should do or not…I beleive I have a right to answer that”

Keep at it, I might not fully agree with you some times but I side with you on this fully.

That means that we should all try to stick to debate and using arguments, as I imagine we don’t necessarily have time to read every other thread on this blog to know “who’s who”. Which we will never as this is the internet, plus even in “real life”, you never really know who someone is. I learned it the hard way.

@abagond, do you have a source for the Winona LaDuke info? I’ve never heard that about her, although all of the other pretend Indians you mention are non-Native. The movie Reel Injun has an interesting interview with Iron Eyes Cody’s son, who lives on the Navajo reservation and speaks fluent Navajo.

Hey , lets be upfront, Bulanik acused my of belittling her as a black woman ( I thought she said black girl and repeated it back, and got some strange acuasations, and the 2 people even mixed up names the same way I mixed up “woman” and ” girl” making their acuasations look ridiculas)

I have always been deeply perplexed at this since I always showed the greatest of respect to Bulanik , I have profusly complimented here in the past..she is a wizard at links, if she wants to point directly where this is ( I am not talking about the “woman” “girl” part , Im talking about where I belittled her as a black woman) , Id be happy apologise or try to reasure her of what I really meant…Ive been waiting and waiting..instead all that gets built up is drama…

Yawn, I dont understand why the person with mixed blood has to take the worst of this…

Example, my wife is maybe 25 percent Indian blood, and she tried out as a dancer at a very young age, for one of the known Bloco Afros in Salvador Bahia.They told her she was too light (?!) My wife is nut light brown and her hair is an afro if she doesnt straihten it, she is obviously Afro Brazilian with ad mixture…

So, because of her Indian blood, she cant be accepted in an Afro organisation, and, according to the extreme political agenda of some small group of Native Americans, she cant wear Indian clothes or Indian jewelry because she doesnt have enough Indian blood…
working for almost slave labor as a maid, and got humiliated very badly for it….Thank god she went on to be a two time Billboard charting artist and even up to now , she dances on the stage all over in places like Rio, New York, Sao Paulo, Miami….and had her songs played on over 200 radio stations…but what obsticles and discriminations put on her every step

That is why I wont lock step with any extreme political agenda that comes down the pike
It seems for being mixed Indian blood, she just gets punished worse, on top of that, she had brutal racism against her for being black

…its perplexing that Bulanik would acuse me of belittling her as a “black woman”, I honestly dont even know what her real ethnic background is…

All I say, why keep some mystery and drama going when we can easily clear this up right away? Is it to someones advantage to keep the impresion that I am some racist going here ? Without getting to the basic fundimental facts and reality to really find out?

I am more than prepared to be set up as an example of someone racist if there really is some truth to it…but dont condemn me on flimsy witch hunt mentality…all we have to do is go to the link where I have belittled Bulanik as a black woman….and I can aplogise , or explain what I really meant, or both….

Oh common now Hannu, why dont you just admit you were one of the people who laid into me about mixing up “girl” with “woman” something I thought I was repeating back of what somewhat one else said( that petty nothingness is all on the Open Thread), and then you actualy mixed up some peoples names…you never did say that maybe you were a little hasty in your judgement…vanishing, you too….you did the same thing..then the only next post you make on here is now coming in dogging me…that is trollish

What really gets strange is , you all are so upset over what really is an innocent mix up on my part that I said was sloppy on my part…why arnt you interested in the part where Bulanik is so sure I belittled her as a black woman ? That is the real question here…that is what I want to find out….like I said, I need to see it so I can either apologise or reasure Bulanik what I meant

Why the drama for nothing, when this all can be cleared up ? Ive had nothing but the greatest respect for Bulanik on here, even when we bash heads…other wise this is just little cyber games witch hunting going on

You know , its great when the force upstairs smiles on me, and, when two people are dogging me for what I claim to be me mixing up what someone said, mixing the words up , and, then these two people absolutly trying to be rude and gross and call me a racist…do the exact same thing and mix up some names…..I mean, fate doesnt cut me breaks like that often…too bad its on an internet blog and not about getting me some big record deal

You are either accidentally or deliberately oblivious to your choice of words. If you cannot understand why people, including me, reacted the way they did, I cannot help you. And why exactly do you yourself participate keeping the ‘drama’ alive? And why exactly does Bulanik’s ethnicity bother you so much? You are the only person probably ever on this blog to be so bizarrely fixated on something like that.

Bulanik’s or anybody else’s lineage has absolutely nothing to do with her or their arguments. If she wishes not to reveal her personal life here, you should be a gentleman and RESPECT that wish. Just leave her alone, you are getting mighty tiresome.

There you go, Hannu ( sorry for your family situation, by the way) trying to imply i care about Bulanik’s ethnicity, when I stated I dont know why she would think I belittled her as a blackwoman….because I dont even know her ethnicity….that doesnt mean her ethnicity is important to me

…Sure ,Hannu, I did say I was curious about who she was, as well as Im curious about a lot of people on here, its not like I have some fetish about Bulanik and her ethnicity…puleeese

Ive been acused of racism, which Id be happy to examine to find out if its true or not..maybe we can all learn something if it is…but, until we see the conversation where I suposidly belittled Bulanik as a black woman, this is all manipulative cyber petty games for nothing….it sure isnt about me being curious about what people are like in real life here….gees, this is really hilarious….we could clear this up so fast if we wanted to….I guess its more fun for you if we dont

@B.R.
A few points:
Don’t you think it’s interesting that two white people have told you that your choice of words is offensive, and yet you feign innocence? Lots of white people like to say, “just an innocent mix-up”. Maybe that is one of the top excuses for being oblivious to the IMPACT of your words, such as just recently, you said,”you people” on this blog.
Also, it’s strange that you constantly cloak yourself in your wife and child’s ethnicity, like some sort of costume. Have you thought about that?
And in this thread, your logic was something like, well, white people in Brazil dress up like Indians, therefore it must be ok. That just doesn’t even make any sense to me..
I read this blog daily, why? Because I learn so much every single time I come here. And yeah, I don’t have a lot to contribute because there are so many more here who do have the knowledge that I lack and I appreciate it, even if it sometimes makes me feel uncomfortable or some other emotion. I appreciate that and am sorry if I worded things wrong.

Well , Vanishing point, at least you are trying to discuss this….No , I dont cloak myself in my wife and son, their story was very relevant to this thread…I dont talk about them every thread…but, I find some of the subjects here relevant to their story….if there is another thread relevant to their story, I wont hesitate to bring in it up…but, I dont bring it up on every thread…

I have a big objective to not get banned on this blog…Im not trying to win any award for congeniality, to be honest, and I dont think I look to attack people, but, I will defend , at times ferociously.Im not trying to be accepted and I have great respect for individuals on here who I have learned from, which is why Im here , but, just take a look at the BWE thread and understand I dont think anyone is looking for quarter here, you take your lumps and try to play by the rules, this isnt suposed to be pretty

About Brazil, if you want to be a provincial country bumpkin sitting on a log naive to the ways of the world , dont talk about Brazil, because in terms of all the things that are mentioned on this blog, its all happeining in a very big way in this marvelous country of close to two hundred million people , and you could learn so much about exactly these issues by spending some real time down here. And, exactly because of this, I have contributed in a great way to bring the attention of some of the problems that are extremly relevant to these discusions , that would really be off most peoples radar..not that everyone would agree with me, I have had epic battles with a guy living in Brazil as long as I have and we went to war o n here.

Two white people telling me ? Mean anything ? Why should it? Its your opinion , I just think you are wrong…”you people”…there was people I knew were white in there….what is your point? “you people that think that critics and the public hold the moral high ground over the artist….” was the context, do you have an objection to that?

About the mix up, then should we grill you and Hannu for your mix up, I mean what was your psycho logical problem to mix up Bulanic with Truthbetold? Is there some deep trauma in your past that would make you do that ? Could that be that you have some kind of psycho in denial they all look alike thing?

Does the blood we have inside (as if poured into us by some superior entity’s counting hand -1/4 of this, 1/5 of that, 1/3 of this…) makes us do ?

Is it the blood ?

Is it the culture ?

Or is it me, again, with “semantics”. Words that ‘mean nothing out their context” or can they *never* mean something ?

Is a person Indian by “blood” ? By culture ? By choice ? By obligation ?

How does an African-American who has always thought he/she had “Indian blood” think and feel when, he/she learns that his/her family has never had the slightest drop of it (as shown in Pr Gates documentary, he himself being the direct descendent of an Irish king) ?

How does it feel when you have always thought you were someone, and really really felt it deep inside, but it so happens that you were not ?

Is it genetics or culture that tells you who you are ? Is it politics ? Policies ? Masks ? Disguise or costumes ?

Is it yourself who tells you who you are, or is it others ?

Do you build yourself against others or by ignoring them ? By obeying them or by rejecting them ?

I have no idea who my ancestors really are, apart from Alsatian, Swiss and from Normandy (so maybe Northmen/women). But as has often been the case, there maybe be “others” from very far too, whom I’ve never been told about, because this is a secret.

I happen to prefer some aspects of other cultures to mine. Does it mean I *may* have those cultures’ blood in my veins ? Of course not. Because blood is not culture, culture is not blood, but we were told it might be.

I do beleive that the Indian tribes have a right to make their rules about who is admitted and accepted in the tribe….

For me, breaking the media open ( we can dream a little) is the key to getting enough Indian voices and stories and real culture and contribution across . Then, those can become real influences , not the phony stereotype

And, being on the look out for phonies like mentioned here…who write books like they are real and make a prophet

When I read “Aryan” and think “Nazi” and “Hitler” it always strikes me how that man CONTROLLED the minds of his audience and people. What did he have his OWN looks that corresponded to the “Aryan” ideal ?? Nothing…

I just finished reading this book on racial colonial rules and their influence on the constitution of the populations of some islands in the Caribbean… It is crazy how many categories they invented to correspond to the “percentages” or “fractions” of “blood” people were supposed to “contain”.

Same as for Hitler, when you how many people were actually the descendents of “unknown fathers”… it would be laughable if it wasn’t so tragic.

thank you. My Grandmother was a Carib. But this word is not a good descriptor, it is like saying i am black, which nominally i am but as we ought to understand, these words are like place holders for information. What do I mean? I spoke about it with Bulanik a little while back:

It’s in French: “La Couleur comme Maléfice, Une Illustration créole de la Généalogie des Blancs et des Noirs” by Jean-Luc Bonniol, Albin Michel, 1992. He is an anthropologist and the goal of the book was to try and understand how “color” in phenotype seems to “stick” so well in the choice of partners in generations in colonial and neo-colonial settings, and more largely, in today’s larger world with the resilience of “color” as a marker of self.

I am actually beginning to read extensively and intensively on this after years of thinking by myself, observing and reading novels… I had all those books in my library that I am now opening one after the other and often together… I’m also taking sociology classes targeting “race” and “cultures” to broaden my access to references. I hope I can then really work on that and do narrowed research… To hopefully find some tools to fight the beast…

I have been listening to a series of radio programs on “Western” and “Eastern” (Occidentaux, Orientaux) Jews on France Culture radio. The Jews’ story is so complex. First, before the 19th century, they were absolutely not “one” people. They spoke all kinds of languages, were accepted or persecuted, rejected or integrated, allowed to do this or that, … the French revolution and then Napoleon in France forced them to unify so that the “Republic” could control them as a religious group… and at the same time they helped them emancipate, etc… But that’s only in France. All over Europe there was a wide range of treatments.

Where is “blood” in all this ? Just like “race” it is a simplifying factor.

People arnt uptight about admiring the differant mixtures…its as much a national past time as watching the women virtualy naked on the beach.It would be absurd to be uptight wondering what a person’s background is. They will take DNA tests and talk about the differant blood mixtures , nothing uptight about that

They just past quotas for the universities classifying people based on race. They had to, or the white Brazilians wouldnt have ever given up the power

I lived in Chicago, New York, a little in L A, never ran into the one drop rule ever , I never read about it as a marker for a court case in those cities or a marker for anything..I think its really strange to just define the USA as though its crawling with the one drop rule…

Im wondering if any of my black American colleagues who lived in those cities I mentioned , ever ran up against the one drop rule?

No matter how you slice it, most of the major problems mentioned here are happening in Brazil also…

KSW6
Linda,
thank you. My Grandmother was a Carib. But this word is not a good descriptor, it is like saying i am black, which nominally i am but as we ought to understand, these words are like place holders for information. What do I mean? I spoke about it with Bulanik a little while back”

Linda says,

SW6, you’re welcome.

As a descriptor, it’s not too bad because “Carib” describes your grandmother’s ethnic group, if you are familiar with the different ethnic groups of Native Indians in the Caribbean, then you could easily figure out which island she came from.

the Caribs and Arawak Tainos were the largest ethnic Amerindian groups in the Caribbean.

I believe the Carib-descendents lived/live mostly in the lower Antilles (ex. Trinidad and Tobago. Guadalupe, Dominica, etc). Since there are many Indians (from India) living in the Caribbean, someone saying that they are “Carib” Indian would definitely describe who they are and possible where they come from, as well as their ancestral origins.

Before Colombus, the two groups had lived seperate from each other, islands & territories marked–the Caribs often crossed the threshold to go raiding. Tainos were peaceful (until Colombus came along) and the Caribs were warriors, great hunters and sailors.

It was mostly the men who had travelled up from South America and island hopped; they killed the Taino men, took over the village, and married the Taino women (they also did this with the Igneri people)

“Karibna” was the original name of the “Caribs”, and as usual, the Spanish and other Europeans mispronounced the name, and the word “Carib” stuck.

The different “Carib” nations call themselves (depending on location) – Kali’na and Kalinago.

Like many other indigenous people, they are trying to take control of their history and their cultural identity, which got hijacked by the Europeans and their tendency to re-name whole groups of people and re-write history.

The Garifunas in Central American (Belize, Honduras) still speak the Carib-language but they longer have the stereotypical “Indian” look like the Kalinagos. I believe in Dominca, the Kalinago have lost the language and are trying to revive it.

Currently, the biggest problems for the Dominican Kalinagos are severe poverty, brain-drain, and intermarriage with non-Kalinagos.

There is a lot of resentment between the Kalinago Indians and the creole Afro/Euro-descended population of Dominica. The Kalinagos naturally want more of their territory back (probably the whole island) and want the “foreigners” out of their existing territory.

There has been so much intermixing in the past, that there are not many “pure” blood Kalinagos left.

So, the ruling Chiefs are/have tried to convince and encourage the remaining group members to keep it all in the family and not marry outsiders, so they can lessen the dilution of the group, revive their nation, and keep their heritage/culture alive.

Linda, great information, and, with that information and if you look at the information I brought in about Brazil, it looks like we in the AMERICAS have lots of names to describe ourselves.

I would challenge anyone here to go into the names I brought in about Brazil and seperate which names were from the “white slave owner” and which were self identified names. Just as I brought in a link about the implication that some black Americans who were there in times of slavery actualy chose to be called “black” or “African”, it seems there are words all over the Americas that came into being to describe the mix of people there.

This is why it would be wise to look at the whole picture of the Americas before just atributing things to only the USA.

Black Americans demonstrated by their sheer will and self determination, that they could change how the whole country refers to them, practicly eliminating terms like “colored” and “negro”from normal everyday interaction

I dont think it all boils down to racists white Americans labeling and making up all these words that describe people and the implication that it is all “wrong”

People have to look at the whole picture in the Americas to understand the dynamic that is going down

The truth is, “extreme political agendas” ought to be scrutinised as much if not more than artistic expresions. It works the same way, it takes years to find out if an extreme political agenda can really bring value to the table or not…unfortunatly, when it goes wrong , extreme political agendas can do huge damage, it can actualy lead to death and destruction.

Look no furthar than Jim Crow Laws, an extreme political agenda that murdered and lynched people, put unrealistic mandates and objectives out that demanded people had to follow, and has huge lasting consequences also, up to church bombings in the 60’s and filters into the political agendas of the right in the USA now

Look at Iraq as an extreme political agenda that caused horrible concequences

Look at communism as an extreme political agenda that has caused as much suffering and misery and death in the world as anything. People who can recite American aggresions around the world in great detail rarely bring up or mention at all that millions and millions and millions of people have been just eliminated and killed under communist regimes that have failed miserably when practicing pure communism, the Chinese are authoritarian capatalism now.

The concequences of lock stepping with just any “extreme political agenda”, whether right , left or center, if it isnt well thought out, can really leave long term damage. Where as something thought out that stands the test of time against the struggle are the ideas that mean something, not arbatrary mandates ready to say who is wrong if they dont lock step on them.

What I find going on a lot is some people are indulging in “instant extreme pollitical agendising”…people are engaging in instant extreme political agendising ” about the use of the word black”, something Malcolm X forged in the heart of the real struggle , in blood and guts (which is an example of an extreme political agenda that worked), or about “Africans dont call themselves black”, or” all the terms Americans use” “or America is the only country with race quotas”, when it is obviously a dynamic going on in places like Brazil. Its great if people know the history of Europe, the migrations of Asia and the Islamic rules of slavery, but, if they cant also see the whole dynamic of slavery and race in the Americas and weigh it against a country like Brazil, they are only seeing one part of a complete picture…”blood” gets instantly politicly agendised, and muddies the problem with why certain extreme Native American political postions about people that are only part blooded Indian shouldnt be expressing themselves in certain mannors of dress..

Tie in words like “opressor” or “racist” with these other “instant extreme political agenda” positions and its all you need to not really face what are the problems that are the most detrimental to Indian issues and shut down valid arguments that need to be addressed. Which most certainly pertains to media impresions that we all have been subjected to throughout our lives about Indians

“B. R.
Linda, great information, and, with that information and if you look at the information I brought in about Brazil, it looks like we in the AMERICAS have lots of names to describe ourselves.

Black Americans demonstrated by their sheer will and self determination, that they could change how the whole country refers to them, practicely eliminating terms like “colored” and “negro” from normal everyday interaction”

Linda says,

BR, I see where you are trying to go with this but Here comes the “but”

No, I don’t think that black Americans or Brazilians continuing to label themselves by colour is similar to the Carib Indians wanting to be called by their real ethnic name “Kalinago” – this is a group of people who know their True ethnic identity.

The only thing the Caribs have in common with the afro-descents in the Americas, is that it was the Europeans who chose to label both groups of people as they (Europeans) saw fit and both groups fought to gain respect and rights in their own countries.

The Kalinagos are not choosing a “label” out of thin air or upholding a racial classification system based on phenotype that they did not create.

The Kalinagos never forgot their Ethnicity or lost their true Ethnic name, they did not lose their culture or heritage–they are just trying to set the record straight finally after bending over for so many years and letting history be written by the victor.

Unfortunately, many African descended people in the Diaspora don’t know their full ancestral history – the African ethnicity was lost due to slavery and it’s agenda of de-humanizing the Africans.

As a black or brown person of the Caribbean, North or South America, it doesn’t matter what non-white people call themselves–at the end of the day, our respective histories in the Americas is what now defines us–black Americans are Americans, black Brazilians are Brazilians. etc

So black/negro, brown, coloured, morena, mulatta, pretinha, caboclo, trigueno, biracial—all these labels do, is signify that the person is African descended and mixed with European and/or other races – it is a vague label that describes only a part of that persons ancestral heritage.

Ancestral ethnicity needs to have more of a definitive meaning for African descended people.

Most black/brown people can tell you what continent their ancestors came from—Africa (and/or Europe/Asia) because that’s the obvious answer based on features – but what exact country, ethnic group, or region of the continent—who knows? That information was lost for so many people.

Many mixed-race people in the Caribbean and South America can probably tell you what part of Europe their white ancestors came from because their ancestors made sure to pass that information down the line–and that in itself, is the real crime

Instead of saying “I am American and I am black”, wouldn’t it be nice if a black American could say: “I am American with Yoruba, Igbo, English, and German ancestry.”— since most white Americans have this privilege of reciting their ancestral ethnic backgrounds; black Americans (any afro-descendant really) should have this privilege as well.

Thanks to people like Henry Louis Gates, it is now possible to find out what region your ancestors came from in Africa, Asia, or Europe…by finding out this information, blacks/browns in the Diaspora can then make an effort to reclaim their true ethnic identity just like the Kalinago.

OK Linda , thanks for clarifying …i dont want to make any assumptions about where you come from and by the way, Im not saying all Brazil is in agreement . The range of differant opinions there is as big as the country, Im just telling you about things I know are true , that they did just nationaly start quotas in universities and there are Brazilians who call them self “black”..On our recent business trip to Salvador, Pelourinho , my song heard someone say to a woman …”oi Morena …” and she said happily “Nao , eu sou Negra..” ( hi morena…no im black ) , and that has always been my point that, its not just the USA that has these paramaters of description and laws in place that define people by race…Dont you think its important to clarify that ? In a discusion where a mandate coming from an activist blog from some Native American Indians ( by the way, their total right and more power to them, I just dont have to agree with everything they say , and I do agree with plenty of other stuff they say) saying that even people with some Native Indian ancestry, shouldnt dress up in Indian clothes or wear Indian jewelry , when there are enormous celibrations in Brazil where most of the people are part black and white and Indian, dressing in Indian costumes , making a comercial enterprise and not authentic, dont you think its important to bring that to the attention of people who are willing to put it out as a mandate ?

Brazil is so big that so many dynamics go down inside its borders. Some one mentioned the lightening theory, that is what was done in Brazil. They imported lots of immigrants from Germany and Italy and encouraged them to mate with all kinds of the Brazilians there…for exactly this theory mentioned..that is why there is tremendous mixture in Brazil, it is a laboratory of mixture, many definitions of people are needed because there is so much mixture down here..is it as simple as you put it , Linda ?

I think, in my opinion, what can be learned from comparing countries like the USA and Brazil, two enormous countries , shaped in very individual ways , by similar historical backgrounds , are the things that ring similarities in actual solving the problems , and, what things actualy would not be right for one , or the other, or ,would be hypocritical to have for one and say ,no, the other one cant do that.

Like finding that , even though quotas are bad in one way and can be arugued against, eventualy, the political climate in Brazil, starting to realise it had to make a change, made racial quotas for universities legal in Brazil. They would never do that to copy the USA, they would hate to do that, they did it, because they came to the same conclusion, that to bring any kind of chance of oportunity for black Brazilians, they had to make laws , because the white Brazilians just would never give up the power…like in the USA….

These places have to learn for themselves how to deal with their problems. I would never say Brazil should copy the USA, but, they sure are going to have to face the same problems that the legacy of discrimination and slavery have left in their wake..

Its some mandates that wont transfer, and, those mandates are what are worth looking at , also, to see if they are valid..like how people dress, who they can date or go out with, how a person can express themselves…those things dont transfer well..and its good to compare other countries and models as a referance

“BR
Im just telling you about things I know are true , that they did just nationaly start quotas in universities and there are Brazilians who call them self “black”.”

Linda says,

Good for them. I come from a country that used to have Colourism as bad as Brazils–it’s gotten better but it’s still there on the fringes.

Coming from a society where the white/light brown members want to treat people based on their skin tone, It’s important for African descendents to love themselves and their features

so if standing up and saying that “they are black” and not mulatta, triguena, etc, gives them a “sense of self”, then that’s great.

My point was that it doesnt’ really matter, as black/brown people, what colour we call ourselves — our real African ethnic identities are lost– so if self-determining by colour gives people a sense of power, then I support that–whatever it takes to have a sense of self –but it is not our “true” Ethnic identity.

Calling ourselves “black vs morena” doesn’t help us as African descendants to regain that actual link back to the continent of our ancestors, the same way that the Amerindians in Brazil are linked to their ancestral lands in South American continent. They’ve retained their actual ancestral heritage and want to reclaim their heritage and what they stand for as a people. I support that as well.

Question: how much are those University quotas are based on Brazil’s classism versus it’s colourism?

From what I’ve heard, having money in Brazil means alot, it can even by a black person into the “white” category on paper.

Having to force the lighter class to be more inclusive with the darker class is not something new for countries that have a white/brown minority ruling class.

Recently in Jamaica, companies were called out for trying to go back to old times–hiring brown (mixed race, mestizo, moreno) people and not hiring anyone black.

“BR,
Some one mentioned the lightening theory, that is what was done in Brazil. They imported lots of immigrants from Germany and Italy and encouraged them to mate with all kinds of the Brazilians there…for exactly this theory mentioned”

My opinion, the “black” Brazilians just need to keep doing what their doing and demand their rights.

It needs to be hammered home to the white/brown class that they also have African heritage but unfortunately for countries like Brazil, colourism is tied firmly with classism. Typically, Light = upper class/ middle class and dark = poor

As long as money and privilege is linked to skin tone, it’s going to be difficult to change the mindset.

Linda, from what I understand, there are definitly questions about racial background, about how the person describes themselves.Of course the detractors mention how so many people can cite black blood in their background and that it will not be fair, but, in my opinion , at least a certain amount of phenotype black people will get through to give them a chance…

Because, if you get down to the nitty gritty, its how many phenotype people do you see at the universities, in the media , in politics , at the gates waiting for flights, at hotels traveling…there are so many phenotype black people in Brazil , the low numbers in so many places is painful…and, prison numbers are high and conditions frightening, and people getting shot by the police, the black and brown numbers are high

And, Brazilian Indians are not well represented in the media also…of course there is as much mixture of Indian in the population as Afro , but, if you look at a novela, you wouldnt know it…and the mixture of Indian and Afro isnt well represented…except, look at the National Soccar selection…that is the real Brazil, and, yes, if you have money and are famous, you can get what you want…remember, Brazil had the mixture policy, but, it doesnt play out in society as much as you would think for the men especialy , I beleive, mostly because of class at that point , but, subconcious things at play in the white Brazilians that wont let brown and black in the elite sociey easily.

Interesting about your article, this is what Im saying at least, you have to try to get to know all the Americas to at least make judgements about how any one country is going about their dynamic of genocide to Indians, African slavery and colonising Europeans

There also may be questions on the forms about income and financial background , I dont know

Im also , in no way an expert on Indians in Brazil, but, Ive seen enough documentaries and news reports to know how they look and what some of their culture and music sounds like .

I know there are some tribes that havent met white people yet…and, there are clashes with gold miners and loggers with land and dam building projects that threaten Indian land

I saw a documentary about the history of Indians in my state and there were brutal massacars, so obviously, the Brazilian story is a brutal one also

There were communitees of run away slaves all over Brazil called Quilombos, and Indians would come in with them. There are certain areas in the Amozon where there is more of an Indian mixture, but, it is with everyone. That is where one of those celibrations I brought in takes place, but, its definitly mixed people dressing up as Indians

In a discusion where a mandate coming from an activist blog from some Native American Indians ( by the way, their total right and more power to them, I just dont have to agree with everything they say , and I do agree with plenty of other stuff they say) saying that even people with some Native Indian ancestry, shouldnt dress up in Indian clothes or wear Indian jewelry….

Oh, really?

Well, I’ve worn quite a bite of Native jewelery in my time, including silver & turquoise earrings and beaded bracelets. Have even considered ordering a pair of beaded moccasin boots to wear with my jeans. Never donned the head band though, as the appearance of it on others always struck me a laughable for some reason.

Never had anyone approach me in real-life to demand that I cease and desist wearing Native-related items. Still, I await the day with bated breath.

Linda, one thing Id like to ask you in relation to names. Maybe the Indian tribe you were talking about is one thing, but, are you telling me Jamaicans dont have names that identify and self identify that distinguish color and ethnic differances ? And, here is my point about the names, which is pertinant to pointing out that it is not only the USA that has these breakdown in names, including “black” to self identify, and they are not all names from the white slave master.

I dont know about Jamaica, but in Brazil,the black Brazilians affected the language immensly, like in the USA. Lets face it, there are so many words in USA popular culture that have influence from black culture it would be foolish to think it didnt go on in slavery times also, just like the banjo got adopted by country and western picking.And where Indian words are not used in popular culture as much, many places in the Brazil and the USA still have Indian names. I honestly beleive some of those names from Brazil I named, came out of self identification or just the slang of the language as it developed.

The truth is, so much doesnt get talked about as far as the total relationship in the Americas that the Indian genocide, African slavery and European colonisation have in common. The African slave , was actualy resisting all the time to being a slave. They would hide their real culture behind Catholic Saints, and this stretches from Brazil with Candomble, to Haiti with voodoo to Cuba with Santera all the way up to the black Ameirican church and how some of the frequenters would “get the feeling” and go into a trance…Im wondering if Jamaica has this , the celibration of West African religionous practices woven into a local culture ? I have thought they do but I dont know what it would be called. Only to show that there are things all over the Americas that relate to its developement and clash of 3 differant cultures, forced into existance through brutal conquest and slavery . Things that affect all the places where this dynamic was played out in the Americas

Do we really know the origins of all those names ? Couldnt some of them been self identifying slang that seeped into the popular language ? I raise all these points in the face of arguments that just break these things down as only some white American phenomenon, this would be misleading

Flammablu, I mean, sure, why do people put out mandates that just are going to fail in the first place ? Maybe that is what they want…It certainly isnt a national Native American agenda…

Well, Vanishing point, where did you go? You asked me a leading question, and never got back..since you had “fake Indian” in the question , at least it relates to the thread so, Ill try to give you an answer, but always when someone does this on a forum on the internet, its a leading question meant to trip someone up….but, Ill try to answer

The differance between you , me, Randy and a fake Indian…

I certainly think differant than Randy, I am not a fake Indian,and, I dont know anything about you so I cant compare…now, you can tell me the answer you already have in mind

“B. R.
They would hide their real culture behind Catholic Saints, and this stretches from Brazil with Candomble, to Haiti with voodoo to Cuba with Santera all the way up to the black Ameirican church and how some of the frequenters would “get the feeling” and go into a trance…Im wondering if Jamaica has this , the celibration of West African religionous practices woven into a local culture?”

Linda says,

Of course, in Jamaica, our version of old world religion married to folk magic is called “Obeah”…as you mentioned, this type of mysticism is what most of the islands have in commom that the Africans brought over similar to Voodoo and Santería.

In the Jamaica (and I’m sure the other islands in Caribbean as well), many aspect of the African culture/language had survived and helped to create our culture. Jamaican patois contains many Igbo and Akan words that have retained their original meaning (like the word “duppy” which means “ghost” in English). Many of our foods also retain their original African or Spanish derived names.

In Jamaica, everyone (black/brown/white) is very aware that our culture is derived from Taino, African, European, and Asian and this mixture is celebrated openly, hence our National motto ‘Out of Many One People’.

This knowledge of intertwined/shared old world cultures doesn’t stop the colourism and the class divisions that exists; and I am sure this is also the case in Brazil.

The unfortunatel part, is that because of slavery, with many of the African traditions and customs that we have retained in our culture, the true meaning behind the practices has become lost, example

We celebrate during Christmas time a festival called “Jonkonnu” — no one really knows how it got started, all that’s known is that possibly:

a Chief named “Prince Jean Konnu or he was called “dzon’ku nu” (which meant a “sorcerer” and “nu” meant “man”) demanded to hold a celebration with his people after being brought to Jamaica during slavery — no one knows the true meaning anymore.

“BR
Lets face it, there are so many words in USA popular culture that have influence from black culture it would be foolish to think it didnt go on in slavery times also, just like the banjo got adopted by country and western picking.And where Indian words are not used in popular culture as much, many places in the Brazil and the USA still have Indian names”.

Linda says,

The problem the US has is that it does not acknowledge the contributions that the African descendents made to it’s society. This is where the main problem lies.

You have kids today (both black and white) who don’t realize that things like “rock music” originated from black musicians and don’t want to listen to it because they think it’s “white peoples” music. Nothing will change until subjects like this becomes common knowledge and not relegated to 1 month out of the year.

Ignorance is bliss in US society.

Many cities/rivers in Florida retain the actual names given by the Native Indians such as Ocala and Lake Okeechobee, which comes from the Hitchiti words “oki” (water) and “chubi” (big) — this is information that has not been lost, so their true meaning and it’s relevance in connection to it’s origins, should be taught and not brushed over.

Linda, thanks for that education on Jamaica, it just adds to the bigger picture of the truth about what was going on.

In my opinion, there is so much lost in the slave period about what was really going on with the black people brought over as slaves. WE just dont know enough about it. Brazil is about as rich a country as anywhere as seeing living photographs of what the culture might have looked like back then, there are so many referances (buried treasure , though, the average person knows nothing of this) of folkloric cultures that can give somewhat of an idea. The USA of course banned black culture from developing in slavery…but you know it did develope anyway

“Food”, oh my gosh, absolutly down here in Brazil that is seriously in effect, and, I live with a person with incredible knowedge in the kitchen…my favorite dish of all time is the AFro Brazilian dish , “muceca”

When I was a kid, I had a big thing for Jamaica and Calypso. Im not such a big reggae fan, but, I loved Calypso, and always dreamed of going to Jamaica. For sure the Harry Belafonte records I listened to werent authentic, but, it fed my fantacy of Jamaica in a big way, that and some films like Dr No

@B.R., sorry in getting back to you so late! Here is a link to a great essay, I hope you read it is a few times over, I think it will help in trying to get my point across.:)http://zuky.tumblr.com/post/903970904

Vanishing point…Great, I dont see myself in that, I dont like labeling myself a liberal or anti racist, I dont like to be backed in a corner

While you and the other white person you mentioned think you have me pegged as a racist, Ive already scoped both of you are naive and new to really confronting the dynamic of racism and how it affects black people and white people in everyday life.

That little tight feeling in your chest and anxiety you feel trying to look at the realities in our racist society, how “lets just all be freinds” just doesnt work in the face of the anger and frustration that black people have to feel at the hands of violence , discrimination and obsticles thrown in their path at every step, Ive been facing in myself for decades…maybe you arnt even new to it, but you sure havent been dealing with it as long as I have…and , I dont mean ” I was in the Civil Rights movement and you werent”..I mean in everyday real life in much the same way you may be…When I see you came charging in so sure that I am a racist, when you havent quite analysed the situation or really read things I have said throughout the blog, it becomes really obvious you got your nervous exitment up thinking you had found some liberal closet racist to out for everyone to see…

The truth is, what I havent seen from one white person on here , including the well meaning ones, is some testamony that black people in their life have actualy inspired them to be better people, I dont mean a spouse, or iconic figure, Im talking about everyday growing up life. Some indication that there were black people who they admired as individuals who helped them to grow and understand life.

That is what is missing, and Ill tell you something else, not one white person on here can really define what is the genius and contributions and culture of the Afro Diaspora. Not even Bulanik can do that.

They dont know how to put in a concise tangeble statement what the value of the culture of ancient sub Sahara Africans is and how it affects most of us in the world today..Many white people here can talk about migrations, arceological findings, history, but, they are really mute on what is the gift of how to go about life that the Afro Diasporic culture is so rich at. Other black people on here have talked about it, Kwamla, Satanforce, Wilson, and other black people on here like Matari and Brothawolf and Truthbetold , instead of attacking semantical dead ends, have gone into “wrapping oneself with their whitenes” as the real problem, which actualy makes real sence in getting to what the problem is instead of semantical crusades as though that is the solution

Those are some pretty important things to understand if you ask me. You will never really know what the battle is about and what is at stake if you cant really look at things like that….the black people in your life that inspired you by setting an example in just everyday life, to help you grow as a person, some people you admired and inspired you . And if you cant really see the genius of the people who are discriminated against , and cant articulate it, you will never know why it is so disgusting and horrible that a people that has offered so much to humanity and civilisation has to be subjected to such disgusting treatment..its a whole lot more than “they are just people too”

And, Vanishing point, where plenty of people in here are brining in intimite details of their lives, on a regular basis, I think its strange that you single out the fact that I mentioned my wife and son . Its like you are trying to sniff something in me that other people are doing but you think you have my number because of some words in a peice you read…Even the blog owner has mentioned his situation with his wife and kids….but, you have to single me out…

Ive chosen to be transparent on here, me my wife and son are entertainers and have done many tours, we are out on the streets, we almost got attacked by a gang (that happened to be white) in South Beach walking home from a presentation. Our names are out there and we are in public to be scrutinised and face the good with the bad…mentioning them on a blog like this is not anything that is going to bring in anything worse than being exposed on the streets and the stage and I sure dont need them to hide behind to talk about race

@B..R.
Lots of thoughts but I don’t want to derail this thread, but I will say this… I am trying to help you because other’s have helped me..and if you look back, I never once called you a racist….Of course, I am not in a position to help you, as I am on a learning curve myself..

No Vanishing point you did imply am I aware of my racist tendencies , and, judged things about me that you didnt judge other people doing the same thing

I want to help you too, and Im on my learning curve also

I totaly question your analysis of me

the truth is, Vanishing point, you saw something in my personality you dont like and then are trying railroad it into impling its not being aware of my racist tendancies..I dont trust your judgement..and the way you are barreling ahead about it and not really trying to find out the truth sais a lot about you

Plenty of white people have come in here saying black people didnt contribute anything to the world..

Where are the white voices to counter that bogus claim? Where are the white voices that can speak to that claim and be able to answer back on the tip of their toungue what the contributions of black people to humanity and civilisation and the world are?

Plenty of white people come in here saying “this black person did something bad to me..black people are like that”

Where are the white voices to come in and say “no , I have had black people inspire me,teach me (outside of a politicly active racial dynamic mode since you better listen to a black person about that, anyway) and I admire those individuals because of how they helped me out in regular life and just learning how to grow” ?

I have seen political agendas ,rhetoric and dogma and pseudo psycho analysis come down the pike for decades now, and this relates to the issues we are discussing here about the blogging American Indians putting out their political agenda about what everyone else should or shouldnt do..

Ive seen the wrong turns and the political activist agendas that worked and the ones that didnt, that dashed on the rocks and has fallout into today, Ive studied it in differant countries, and seen the atutudes and agendas that failed miserably and ruined lives …if you are in this for the long haul, you better beleive there is a lot to learn

You know B.R. some are here, even though, like me, they do not accept the “white” labeling, simply they are not white-minded. And I don’t care, really, what people think of this political statement, because it is a political statement, and as such, is subjective. And I *think* it preferable to call myself who I am than to validate the frame of reference of race. Why should I, really ?

That said, an African man (probably Senegalese, but I was too little to remember) taught me to swim. Sounds trivial, right. But, Africans were not (and still are) not supposed to be “natural swimmers”. The people who say that have seen met Douala people. They may have met Bamiléké people who have that cultural fear of water due to the spirits they believe live in rivers.

Sounds trivial, still so. But what is not so trivial in my case is that that man was hired by my grandpa who was the public swimming-pool director at the time.

So in one movement, I DIDn’t learn what society would have taught me: that Africans have a certain range of capacities (one), which don’t include swimming, that my grand father was not supposed to be hiring a “black” man because he was supposed to be doing things like others -not hire a black person- (two) and that an African can’t teach anything to a French person (three). All in one, I couldn’t thereafter be taught that it wasn’t possible because I had experienced the opposite personally.

My grandma (that grand-father’s wife), when I was probably about the same age, didn’t allow for prejudice to enter my head. She told me the story of how she saw her first car ever, when she was little herself. It was in her village of Gouville on the Normandy coast, in the summer. A doctor (first event in the village of fishermen) came to stay at the village’s auberge with is family, driving a brand new car (second event) and the doctor was a French west-indian, so-called “black” man (third event).

My grand-parents basically didn’t allow for racism to settle in me.

All the stereotypes were broken, and that never goes reversed.

And then I learned much more, from and with dark-skinned Africans and Afro-descendents. And it seems just “normal”. Has always.
Peace.

There is nothing trivial at all about telling that you were taught to swim by a black person…it is exactly what we need to see more of, white people saying that they learned from black people ,….because we are hearing so much crud going in the other direction, “black people havent contributed to civilisation”, “black people arent as smart as blah blah”…we dont hear enough from white people saying that they learned from black people, that they admired and were inspired by black people in their lives to make them better people…because the hypocracy is unbeleivable how big it is

Yes, Im lucky, in the face of white flight, my parents moved our family when I was very young into an integrated neighborhood , and Im eternaly thankful to them for that

I think this is an interesting post, Abagond. There is something here which can be seen between many cultures, not just between ‘whites’, ‘blacks’, and ‘Indians’. As a first generation immigrant, I never knew my birth-country, I grew up with a Russian family in a starkly different Canadian environment. While I spent almost my life here, there was always a heavy disconnect with my Russian cultural identity because of the distance and alienation, but I could not identify with a Canadian identity. Many immigrants face the issue of claiming a distinct identity, especially when growing up. I am sure there are often some confusing feelings, like guilt, associated with trying to claim a solid basis in one or another.

What is frustrating and certainly even more confusing, is why someone who has deep roots in one country, lives in this country, and whose entire being is tied to this country, why they would claim an identity of another country? In a way, I think this is a viral flaw in Canada and the U.S. (at the very least). Without a sense of true pride and connection to a culture and its prevalent characteristics, be they even stereotypes, this person might resent their own culture and seek something “more interesting”, or “more appealing”.

The only solution to this is for them to be educated about their own cultures and reclaim their own place. I have often met many Canadians who learn about others being of a different culture, and then either express how much more ‘cool’ that seems than being Canadian, or read off a list of their German, Native, Spanish, Australian and three-quarters Irish-immigrants to Macedonia heritage…. This is confusing, ignorant, and misplaced. I think we need to re-examine how we learn about culture, what heritage is, and how we can establish an identity in societies that do more to destroy, alienate, and appropriate identity.

With regard to individuals who claim to be of a different culture for image or money, there will always be nutcases.

Wynona Laduke is not a member of a fake tribe,her dad, Vincent Laduke , also known as Sun Bear was an actual Chippewa Tribal member who started a fake tribe: “…Sun Bear (Gheezis Mokwa) , 1929-1992, Chippewa,
Sun Bear, who was born Vincent LaDuke, was a writer and actor who is probably best known for founding the Bear Tribe in the 1970’s in Washington.”

Do you have any links to the history of the “$5 dollar” Indians? Supposedly when the government was granting Indians and people with actual Indian heritage land and other government assistance(sometime in the late 1800’s early 20th century I believe) many Whites who wanted this government assistance would bribe the government official who was in charge of stamping ones papers as Indian or non Indian with $5.00(a lot of money back then but well worth it)

If a white man is 1/16 Cherokee, he’s 1/16 Cherokee. Don’t really get all the speculation regarding the motives of whites with Indian ancestry. I could just as easily speculate that the folks here don’t like whites having Indian ancestry because it legitimizes their presence in N.America, something attacked in other threads.

As far as I go, I don’t identify as Indian but my father does. Technically I’m a Choctaw citizen. However, I’m a mix of Choctaw and Finnish. Finnish is extreme N European genes. My dad’s close to a light skin black in coloration but my mother is the fairest person I know, and I take after her 90 percent.

I don’t really get how rednecks being prejudiced against blacks invalidates Indian blood. I’ve known full Choctaw who have hated all sorts. If you remember a few years ago there was controversy because descendants of freedmen previously owned by Cherokee wanted the courts to force their citizenship into the nation, even though they had no claim in the Dawes Rolls and thus no blood. I remember some full Cherokee being pretty hostile during that time.

Also keep in mind, these benefits everyone thinks exist often have extreme stipulations attached, and mosr of the federal money goes to Western nations who are struggling. Those nations are least likely to have many white or black citizens.

Other fakes include Jay Tavare whose real name is Jai janini and he is persian and/or Iranian, who had many native parts. He claimed to be Apache of the Deer Clan, well, guess what, there is no apache deer clan. Rudy Youngblood who claimed at least 3 different tribes from North America (he starred in Apocalypto via Mel Gibson.lol.) and he is actually from South America via Texas. His mother and sister and girlfriend told a native american producer the truth that he is NOT of the 3 tribes he claimed. He actually claimed he had relatives who died at the Battle of the Little Big Horn and at Wounded Knee! which really ticked many Sioux off. Rick Mora, another actor has no Tribe either. Kelly Two Wolves, a psychic and artist among other money-making schemes, claims Oglala. When asked how she is Oglala she merely exclaims that she just is. Johnny Depp has actually black roots not native american roots. After his movie the Lone Ranger failed miserably he tried to bring more attention to himself saying he would by Wounded Knee from the owner of the land and give it to the Sioux. He even made an appearance down there!LOL. He never spent a dime down there when he was there. Many will say they don’t want to honor the government by having an ID but the fact is it’s the Tribe, people who give the ID. Reverse racism doesn’t work on the rez. I’m from the Rez and can spot a fake a mile away.LOL.

One more comment about Iron Eyes Cody. It is irrelevant that he walked the walk which he didn’t because no matter if you marry native or do all kinds of native causes the fact remains he still was not and never will be Native. He was conveniently asked to remove himself from a room during a National Congress of American Indians conference just before the opening ceremony because to them he WAS SIMPLY NOT NATIVE. The nerve of some people. No disrespect intended here.

We have the same type of fake Indians here in Canada except they are more mundane as they are not famous in some sort of way. It especially comes in handy when you call them a racist. They will allude to some remote First Nations ancestry as to why they can’t be!

Hmmm i know this chick. She looks white and is some kind of ”alternative model”. In some her shoots she’s barely dressed, wearing fake regalia fit for carnival. She claims to be 70% indian and that she’s showing her pride with those photographs. And of course most of her fans buy this bullshit HAHAH!

I laughed out loud at the title of the piece but I read the piece too and the subject is serious. (I still get a kick out of the title though.)

A comment from the Salon comment section:That is racist and stupid. I have the right to dance however I want. If I wanna swing naked from the ceiling in a thong, you better believe Im gonna do it, and I dont have enough GAFs to go around, so yeah. Bellydance is very spiritual and healing for me as a woman and as a PTSD survivor and I should be denied that based on my skin color? Ah Hell no. End the race bainting, were all one human race. PFFT!

This commenter has a point. However, I smell oversimplification at work too.

I have not read the author’s embedded links but the article itself is very good. She says this:

…one person can’t stop anyone from doing anything: White women will continue to belly-dance. What I’m asking is, when you are part of the dominant culture and live in a country that subsidizes the theft of land and resources from Arab people; in a country that supports and financially aids Arab governments that silence and even imprison democratic protesters; in a country where kids don’t feel safe telling schoolmates that they’re Arab-American – maybe think twice before you put on some genie pants and kohl and call yourself Samirah Layali?

it serves as one kind of answer to the quote of the commenter above.
——————————————
I was particularly disgusted by two comments, to the sequel, that I came across:

blue 9 hours ago

I’m sorry I clicked this and read still more of this writer’s utter contempt for anyone outside her own ethnic background and leanings. Bigotry being presented as something moral and righteous is nothing new, of course. That’s what FOX news is all about. This writer is in the same ilk as Anne Coulter in my opinion. Shrill, dogmatic and proud to be mean spirited and divisive. The writers and thinkers I respect are those who recognize the humanity in everyone and address particular issues without blanket blame for anyone who happens to be in the neighborhood.

Serai1 9 hours ago

I just realized how fitting it is that both the pictures that accompany these articles are of one body part only, and it’s not the women’s faces, as Jarrar also refuses to consider the humanity of the women involved, and sees them only as icky offensive bodies moving to music to which she presumes to claim ownership.

The sophistry of the second comment is so ingrained it would be easier to extract a melted ice cube from a drink than to ever get through to this calculating, icy, holier than thou and pseudo humanitarian commenter.

Lumbee tribe of north Carolina is the Biggest fake tribe made by politicians during jim crow for votes ,they started out as mulattos of scuffleton,NC an Immemorial homogenous free negro settlement,A home where the yellow(mulattos)gathered by 1900 they changed their name to the Lost colony croatans ,then Cherokee of robeson county when that failed they got through lobbying more politicians for a casino and free HUD money to pose them as a Lost tribe that forgot its language,customs,history and anything Indian(Lame excuse to cover up no indian culture)They copy plains Indians or anything off tv and try too hard to convince you they are real Indians yet having no indian genealogies ,treatys,culture or language,they all appear white,black white mixed and lack any significant native American Dna results.

Intensive modern genealogical research has been done by Prominent Drs Heinegg and Demarce and have come to the conclusion the lumbee are an invented tribe who ancestors migrated to Robeson county from tidewater Virginia same as all other colonist and their ancestor are all listed as Black,white or mulatto never as Indians or tribal people.

Hipster Racists, Pretenders and Race Benders love playing the five dollars Indian game for rape romantic, exotic appearance points and gov freebies. It’s scary to see people stealing another people’s blood and land. It kinda hurt my soul to see this full level of chaos towards the First Nation. Same way like the Aboriginals and other people caught into the bloodshed homicidestorm. The worst event in my life is seeing a person celebrating Thanksgiving, Christopher Columbus and other manmade holidays while claiming their victim’s bloodline. Same time by disliking them behind their backs.

I know a woman that pretends to be native American just so more people will buy her Native American reproduction art, her name is Supaya Gray Wolfe, she calls her business Many Tears, she uses this fake name so people will buy and spend more on her art, whereas she would most likely do fine if she were honest about her heritage, she seems to do better with her fake personallity.

Yeah, I think Winona La Duke is actually enrolled Chippewa as was her father who did start his own Rainbow-type tribe. I argued with him once on the radio when I was a kid. But she does a lot of good work with the tribes and IEN. Her dad was more about his guru-thing and I seem to recall she grew up separately from him.

Winona LaDuke is enrolled White Earth Ojibwa. That status cannot be denied. I would recommend if you are going to call somebody a phony Indian you should be more careful in your research. A tribe that has been around longer then her father was alive. Her mother was Jewish. Do the right thing and take her down from this website as she is Native American, look up her father Vincent LaDuke who is without a doubt native.

Her father tried to create his own tribe, the Sun Bear clan which was based on new age or fake spiritualism as compared to established native spiritualism. There were many alleged violations against women by him and his associates in these so-called ceremonies which mixed any and everything from Plains ceremonies to eastern philosophy.

It says something that 3 years after the date of this original blog that people are still responding. First, it’s clear that some people will manufacture a false identity purely for purposes of financial profit as with various authors and speakers who are selling a book or a “solution”. However most of the “Pretendians” and “Fauxchontases” I encounter seem to be doing it for personal reasons though I’m not sure why anyone would feel so inadequate and insecure about themselves that they would have to engage in fiction to compensate but they do. I think some people might start out with an innocent “white lie” (no pun intended) of “Yea I’m 1/8th Cherokee” perhaps simply because someone in their family said so. And over time the lie builds and evolves into a self-accepted “truth”. (By the way, why is it ALWAYS Cherokee when there are over 560 Federally recognized tribes ? At least mix it up now and then).

With the advent of cheap DNA testing a person could *easily* determine if and to what extent they have “Indian blood”. For example the company 23andMe will charge you around $100 and in return provide a detailed lineage report. The price will only get cheaper as time goes by so I expect the fakers to be fewer since people will either have to “put up or shut up”. In the end I don’t care what lies a person tells themselves or what deceptions they perpetuate to friends and acquaintances but if you go public with it and try to tell me you are Indian (when it’s really clear that you aren’t) then I’m going to ask you to prove it. Get mad if you want “bro” – get defensive if you want but if you are trying to horn in on a culture that is NOT yours then I’m going to push back on that.

Lastly, one of the lamest variations on the whole Pretendian thing I’ve heard lately was a white woman who claimed that “past life regression” revealed that she was an “Indian Princess” in her past 2 lives. (not a worker or an average person but a PRINCESS). So she claimed that this should qualify her for tribe membership.

Yes. There are many reasons for claiming. There is the mystique or romanticism of being someone they try so hard to believe or identify with. There are also fake medicine men who will tell them, mainly white females, that they were native in a former life.lol. Purely for ‘hookup’ purposes or to make themselves feel important. Still many think nothing of truth, only of where there’s a will to lie, there’s a way that others will listen.LOL.

While most of what you said was true, you put in one stereotype that plagues Indian Country. NOT ALL REAL TRIBES ARE FEDERALLY RECOGNIZED. Are you saying that the Pamunkey, recognized in 2015 were fake before that? Were the Jena Choctaw, recognized in 1995, fake before that? No, you are just reinforcing bigotry. Most groups calling themselves tribes are fake and everything you said is true about such fraudulent groups. However, there are groups that are not Federally Recognized that have never had that relationship with the US government, or they are now in the legitimate pursuit of it, that are REAL historical tribes, real Natives.

A few examples: The Kansas Wyandot Nation, has an 1896 Federal roll, they are legit but not recognized. They have an issue with continuity of government after the death of their traditional Chief, George Zane, but they are still REAL INDIANS;

The Mount Tabor Indian Community in east Texas formed in 1844 in part by an Executive Order of US President Polk, mentioned in numerous books (Cherokee Cavaliers and Genealogy of Old and New Cherokee Families to mention two, not to mention the Indian Papers of Texas, and a number of college papers), although known by different names, has existed as a political entity from historical times to present. It is the only group that is Cherokee, Choctaw, Chickasaw and Creek (The name comes from one of the founders John Adair Bell, a Cherokee, in a letter to Stand Watie in which he calls his place “Mt. Tabor”. Further, if you know anything about the Cherokee during the Civil War, most families that left Indian Territory (CSA supporters) did so for Rusk County, Texas (aka Mount Tabor). Today the group is made up of six families that never left after the Civil War. All well documented American Indians, through the Guion Miller roll and Old Settler roll, 1832 Creek Census for Horse Path Town, 1818 Chickasaw Annuity Roll and Dawes Commission cases such as the William C. Thompson et al vs Choctaw Nation case.

Then finally you have the Miami Indians in Indiana. Although turned down for recognition on a technicality, they are legitimate American Indians according to the BIA and may still gain recognition through the courts.

These are but a few of the tribes still being held back and now discriminated against by people like you. Maybe you, the writer should do a little more research as well to get the real picture of Indian Country. The fakes truly hurt the non-recognized legit tribes/bands more than any others making people like you lump them all together. For the record, there is NO LEGITIMATE Cherokee tribe beyond the three federally recognized. Mount Tabor, although beginning as a Cherokee group, was made up of refugee Creeks, Yowani Choctaws and a few Chickasaws by the 1850 US Census. Most were mixed bloods, but they are not Cherokee only, making the three federally recognized Cherokee tribes, the only legit groups in the USA. No others can trace their history/government from historical times to present as a single entity. There are some individual families that are really American Indians and not part of recognized tribes, but 1 family does not make a tribe. Do a little more research.

@txcherind
I will concur that I also have an issue with this statement by Abagond:

The American government knows which are the true tribes and each tribe knows who belongs. That simple.

It certainly is not that simple. There are many Native American groups that are not recognized by Federal or State governments. Some that pushed for even state recognition often spent many decades doing it. Some tribes had been recognized for centuries, then had it taken away from them.

Are you saying that the Pamunkey, recognized in 2015 were fake before that?

You must certainly be aware that their recognition was rescinded in October 2015 by an appeal from Stand Up California, which advocates that they are not authentic Pamunkey. So, at least some members of society still claim that they are fake.

This is despite the Pamunkey
– holding reservation land since early colonial times (some 350 years)
– paying their annual tribute (consisting of deer, turkey, animal skins) to the Commonwealth of Virginia every single year without fail ever since the treaty with the Virginia colony set aside reservation land for them.
– being forced to be reassigned as “colored” under Walter Plecker’s enforcement of the Virginia’s Racial Integrity Act.
– being forced to attend Indian schools designed to strip them of their culture and identity

The Pamunkey have kept up their end of the bargain since colonial times. The US and Virginia governments have not. Still the Bureau of Indian Affairs considers (frivolous in my opinion) appeals from lobbyists representing white corporate interests to rescind their recognition. If it were solely in the hands of Congress, all of these appeals for federal recognition would be thrown in the waste bin.

“Iron Eyes Cody lived and worked as an Indian for all his adult life; he labored for decades to promote Native American causes, and was honored by Hollywood’s Native American community in 1995 as a “non-Native” for his contribution to film.”
Lived life as a Native American. Somehow I don’t consider that fake. I consider it honorable and honorary.

Yes, if you look around, you’ll find there’s more mixed opinion in Indian country about Iron Eyes Cody than these other people — because he walked the walk. He married a Native woman, adopted and raised Native children, supported Native causes both financially and with his time. But he still lied about his racial background for decades while taking paying jobs that otherwise would have gone to Native actors. He built his entire acting career on a lie and received more industry recognition and public acclaim than actors who truly were Native.

There is no argument here. I’m full blood and no one can live “as a native.” It’s in our dna. No one has our unique experiences as Original Inhabitants of Turtle Island. No one has our Red Road in the Black Hills of South Dakota and so many other distinct issues and oral histories common only to us. Many people will say they were native spiritually…no. You have to be native in the blood. That is where no one can go unless they are native to Turtle Island.

^ I understand that it is kinship, more than blood per se which determines the native connection (although blood quantum is of course among the rules of membership in many tribes). Relationship by blood is the more common kinship arrangement, but others are possible (e.g., adoption). I know of some cases.

I was told by my mom when l was 14 l had Cherokee blood.l when on a journey l mean a journey.l when from Rez to Rez from the buetful people to the original people.l have seen the young die the old drunk the hopeless faces,the far away look no l am only part a small part but the best part of me is CHEROKEE!!.