Tol Barad Balance Discussion

Cory "Mumper" Stockton has posted a dev blog about balance in Tol Barad, and the developer's approach to gameplay in the zone.

If you've been curious about their recent changes, this post should shed a little light on the subject. Some of you may remember a blue post a few days ago indicating that this post was coming.

The full text is after the break!

Now that Cataclysm is out in the wild, more players are getting gearing up and checking out Tol Barad, the new outdoor PvP zone. Today, we wanted to address some of the concerns players have expressed about the zone, including how challenging it can be to win as the attacking team, and provide some insight into our design approach. We also wanted to share some of the lessons we learned from Wintergrasp, discuss the difference between the two zones, and touch upon the recent hotfixes made to Honor Point gains and how we plan to improve Tol Barad going forward. We're confident this zone will provide meaningful and fun PvP for some time to come, but we also recognize additional tuning is required to ensure Tol Barad is everything we intend it to be.

As we mentioned earlier, the attacking faction is having a pretty tough time winning control of Tol Barad -- and we're OK with that, at least in theory. Here's why: When we set out to create Wintergrasp, one of the issues we dealt with was that we were never able to ensure the sides were even -- in fact, they rarely were. Because the smaller team would almost always be assured defeat, we attempted to address team-size imbalance by favoring the attacker. Control of Wintergrasp went back and forth, and the result was that battles lost their impact. On most realms the defenders became complacent, knowing they were likely to lose control of the zone, returning to re-take it when it was their turn to attack. The sides swapped back and forth every few hours, and Wintergrasp wasn’t so much about an epic struggle for a meaningful piece of land as it was a complicated game of leapfrog.

Since then we’ve devised mechanics that help ensure equal team sizes, and we've taken Wintergrasp's lessons to heart when we designed Tol Barad. Tol Barad is intentionally balanced so that it’s a challenge for the attackers, because we want to make sure that control of Tol Barad matters. For the defenders, there’s a sense of urgency that Wintergrasp didn't have -- if you lose it, you’re going to have a hell of a time taking it back. For the attackers, there are a number of rewards at stake -- such as access to the Baradin Hold raid and additional daily quests -- that we hope players feel are worth fighting for. That sort of tension is what we wanted from Wintergrasp, and what we believe Tol Barad can ultimately offer.

With that being said, we want winning Tol Barad to be a challenge for the attacking faction... but we don't want it to be impossible. Taking Tol Barad should be tough -- but right now it’s a little bit too tough, and it’s something we’re actively working to balance. Earlier, we attempted to temporarily address the issue by offering a far better reward to the winning attackers: Honor Points awarded for successfully attacking were increased tenfold, but that was such a great incentive that it ultimately undermined the spirit of competition. Since then, the reward for winning as an attacker has been brought back down to a more reasonable amount.

While we've already made minor adjustments to improve the gameplay and address select exploits, our job in Tol Barad is far from over. We ultimately want to make sure that any changes we make are all steps in the right direction, and we intend to make several updates in the next minor patch to address design and balance issues affecting attackers that we can't address with hotfixes. For example, we plan to alter the battle slightly so that a team with two bases captured can more quickly and easily capture the third, as opposed to a team with one or zero bases. This way, if the defenders turtle up, it'll be a little easier for the attackers to take their last base before the defense can take one of the attackers' other bases.

We've been reading your feedback, watching trends across our global realms, and fighting plenty of battles in Tol Barad ourselves to get a feel for what's working and what isn't, and we're committed to making Tol Barad a fun and engaging zone. We want owning the zone to be meaningful throughout the lifespan of the expansion -- and while the attackers may always face somewhat of an uphill battle, the defenders should feel much more pressure not to lose than they do currently. Just the same, the attacking faction should feel motivated to take Tol Barad back, but they shouldn't feel that the odds are insurmountable. So keep fighting the good fight, and we'll continue watching the battlefield and listening to your feedback.

Cory "Mumper" Stockton is the lead content designer on World of Warcraft and enjoys a good set of LEGOs.

Comments

Comment by OptimusJ

on 2011/01/10 14:42:10

So basically as I wrote in the past, Blizzard takes the same stance with Heroic Dungeons as Tol Barad where they want "...players work at a real challenge to win..." instead of the automatic loot pinata we had before.

IF you're an attacker. If you're defending the Piñata even breaks itself, unwrap the candy and throw at your mouth. Your only job is to keep the mouth open.So, no, your point is not valid and you are just kissing Blizzard behinds.

And no one mentioned the other exploit where people who leave the raid are not expelled and so make their faction bloat by opening a spot that will call more and more people to replace someone that is already there. YAY! More imbalance.

Comment by Alkony

on 2011/01/10 16:02:27

Ok, post is too long to quote the whole thing, so I'll address the part that made me go "WHAT?"

As we mentioned earlier, the attacking faction is having a pretty tough time winning control of Tol Barad -- and we're OK with that, at least in theory. Here's why: When we set out to create Wintergrasp, one of the issues we dealt with was that we were never able to ensure the sides were even -- in fact, they rarely were. Because the smaller team would almost always be assured defeat, we attempted to address team-size imbalance by favoring the attacker. Control of Wintergrasp went back and forth, and the result was that battles lost their impact. On most realms the defenders became complacent, knowing they were likely to lose control of the zone, returning to re-take it when it was their turn to attack. The sides swapped back and forth every few hours, and Wintergrasp wasn’t so much about an epic struggle for a meaningful piece of land as it was a complicated game of leapfrog.

I guess I got stuck on the wrong server! Horde ALWAYS controlled Wintergrasp on Shadow Council until they implemented the 1:1 ratio limit. It was actually NEWS when once a week or so at 3am the Alliance managed to gain control of it. As a result, I have been in VoA TWICE.

Maybe we were the exception, but come on!

Comment by shinazueli

on 2011/01/10 17:26:55

So access to a raid boss and the other half of the dailies isn't an incentive enough? I mean really? That's enouogh pressure RIGHT there if that's your guild's raid day. I'm sick and tired of this crap. It's literally impossible to attack TB. The defending team doesn't even have to DO anything, like hold a flag or prevent us from entering an area. All they have to do is stack in a node. It's hor$e$hit and the post by the devs is after the fact design, as in, oops, we didn't think about this before we designed it, but now that it's like this let's just say it was intended. Yeah, not buying it. What's that, you have waterfront property in Kansas for me?

And @ the retarded posters (not all of you) above, I submit a list.1. Learn to speak English before posting, or just type it in another language, at least then SOMEONE can understand you.2. @ the guy who said paying for a beta : yes, you didn't just pay money for TB. However, this isn't the only mistake, either.3. @ everyone else responding to 'defensive lean' : TB should be stand-alone fun. Even without the rewards, Wintergrasp was FUN to play. Not so with TB, it's really like gouging your own eye out with a cold dull spoon, from the attacking end. From the defending end, it's a borefest.

I don't care what Blizz says, TB and WG before it NEED to change hands every so often. However they manage to design that into it, it has to happen, or nobody will play, thereby ruining the game. As it is, I and so many others on my server have just given up. It's instant q to attack because there's likely not even a full team attacking any more. We've tried guild runs, we've tried premades, we've tried logging on to the other side and BRIBING them to not play. We've tried everything. It's literally not possible to win. FIX THIS CRAP NOW BLIZZARD!

Comment by Coldreaver007

on 2011/01/10 17:33:21

Throwing 5 random people at a Heroic dungeon is causing lots of "problems" because trying to explain effects and movements to a player with just /p is rough. Throwing several dozen at Tol Barad unsurprisingly has the same result because you have random players unsure and uncoordinated with only /bg to help out. Throwing people together and expecting them to win with just /p or /bg seems kind of crazy to me.

Maybe a modified interface for warzone like tol barad or any bgs in general will solve or at least improve the gameplay, something like BG leader have a UI to send messages to all the raids members, kinda like "zerg that point", "defend that point" will improve the uncoordinated attacks. IMO one of the main reasons that the attacking force fails to do it its the lack of coordination required to capture the bases. I've seen many players standing in the roads doing absolutely nothing while the attacking faction is zerging one tower. Though maybe this will not solve at all balacing issues, i think it can greatly improve gameplay experience.

How I would fix TB-Flat out swap GY spawn points-Killing towers still nets increased battle time, but razing all 3 towers changes the win condition from 3 capping to 2 capping. In either situation the win would be determined by towers held when the timer runs out.

i really love this idea, the current WIN condition is extremely hard for the attacker and maybe this is kinda the way to address it; reading the blizzard forums a guy posted something really interesting, that mostly TB is lost because the defender can turtle a base with 10 or so good pvp'ers and send the rest to zerg another base, and thats it, TB is gone for the attacker. Having the posibility for a 2 base condition by razing the 3 towers IMO will stop the " run around the chair" style of TB, opening the warzone to other strategies.

Comment by Crunkjuice

on 2011/01/10 18:39:22

I think everyone is in agreement that TB is much easier to defend than it is to attack (the whole rotating zerg strategy for defense is killer). Instead of changing the victory conditions, which would be a dramatic change to the gameplay of the zone (some of you would probably be strongly in favor of this, but blizzard probably would not), spawn times for defending players should be increased. This would pump up the pressure on the defense, well, to play more defensively. It would also mean that kills scored on defending players would mean more to the offense. PVP should be about defeating the enemy player by using your character's abilities, not about one side having an extreme tactical advantage where character deaths have almost no impact on the gameplay.

Comment by MOLDINAR

on 2011/01/10 20:15:30

the fact is lol barad will be known as that forever. yeah you paid for a beta, blizz made 138 million in one month. you got 5 more lvls . whoopy doo! the only thing i have liked is the way they have changed it for the low lvl toons. i had given up on bringing up another toon , but with my dwarf shammy its been a blast. my only complaint is that the gear available is crap. at lvl 56 he's got nothing to work with. healing has been a challenge, which i don't mind. i can keep from running out of mana if the tank isn't a complete idiot., but i i get attacked i'm dead in like 3 hits. on a bg i'm a sitting duck, one hit i'm dead. i don't even go into them right now , its just not worth it when you spend all the fight in the graveyard. <THREE INCHES OF BLOOD> MALYGOS

Comment by HoleofArt

on 2011/01/10 20:30:34

SPOILER ALERT

Blizzard still has no idea how to balance it and are now struggling trying to find a medium.

Bravo. Why in God's name they feel the need to have another Wintergrasp when they continually failed at that is beyond me. Give me back Isle of Quel'Danas kthx.

Comment by Carimm

on 2011/01/10 20:43:26

While we've already made minor adjustments to improve the gameplay and address select exploits, our job in Tol Barad is far from over.

So it's official, we paid for a beta release.

Because Tol Barad is the only thing Cataclysm added?

Unfinished game is unfinished, whether it's one major aspect of it or another.

No, it works, its just unbalanced. Stop playing if you don't like it.

SPOILER ALERT

Blizzard still has no idea how to balance it and are now struggling trying to find a medium.

Bravo. Why in God's name they feel the need to have another Wintergrasp when they continually failed at that is beyond me. Give me back Isle of Quel'Danas kthx.

Its still there, go have fun.

They tested it to the best of their abilities and tried to do better after learning from past mistakes. The fact that they are telling us they are working on it is a good thing, its not like fingers will be snapped and YOUR PRECIOUS game will be fixed. I think the record sales and subscriptions tells us that you crybabies are the minority, albeit a loud one; yet you still pay AND play...hmm.

edit: for grammar

Comment by HoleofArt

on 2011/01/10 21:02:05

They tested it to the best of their abilities and tried to do better after learning from past mistakes. The fact that they are telling us they are working on it is a good thing, its not like fingers will be snapped and YOUR PRECIOUS game will be fixed. I think the record sales and subscriptions tells us that you crybabies are the minority, albeit a loud one; yet you still pay AND play...hmm.

Lol. Asking for a "finished" product that actually works is apparently too much? They did not test it to the best of their abilities. If they had they wouldn't have let it launch like this. If they had any idea of what to do with it they wouldn't have added the cheesy 1800 honor fix, and then reverted it when that backfired.

They've had plenty of past mistakes, and I'm pretty sure most people here would rather have nothing than a broken product that causes more frustration. They simply lack the ability to balance a giant world PvP zone. Why do they keep slamming their head against the wall?

Comment by Carimm

on 2011/01/10 21:13:52

What was fully broken? What doesn't work? I have 0 problems at this time, sure there were a few unbalanced things but as a whole the game works fine. And yes, aside from letting millions of people test the beta, they did everything they could to test the game.

Besides the 'cheesy honor' fix, what have they done wrong the make game 'sooo broken' that millions upon millions of people stopped playing.

Wait, what? They didn't stop? It's just a few whiners who are mad at one zone? Oh, my bad.

Comment by Shigy

on 2011/01/10 22:24:15

The biggest problem I see with the easier for the defender approach is those 3am local battles. Even assuming most of your server populace doesn't have jobs you've still got to sleep some time. So even if your the most awesome defenders ever 10 people can just take it that stayed up late. Thats not something blizzard can fix. I think they should just make the sides balanced. How many people want to keep doing PvP that is not balanced? I'm willing to bet not many.

I have been fighting in TB everytime its up and I'm online but its only because I wanted my rep faster (exalted now) and my tokens. Once I've got the other couple of things from there why wouldn't I just go do a battleground that is balanced?

Comment by Rainemard

on 2011/01/10 22:25:40

Tbh i'm not nearly as concerned about how unbalanced Tol Barad may or may not be, so much as how often I spend the 45 minutes (15 in Queue, 30 for the fight b/c attacking forces continue to destroy the towers even though it only delays the inevitable) outside the battlefield. It's to the point that I just queue up and don't bother even going to TB until it's been going on for ~25 minutes or so.*

Tol Barad is not a world pvp zone. It's a bg hiding behind another Isle of Quel'Danas while dressed up as Wintergrasp.

Comment by Magoanubi

on 2011/01/11 01:48:04

The very big problem about Tol Barad? It's almost IMPOSSIBLE to be called! Me and my guildmates always queue at least 3-4 times/day and only a couple of us are called and just 1 time. How can we help winning Tol Barad if we cannot enter the battle?

Comment by Valknyte

on 2011/01/11 01:52:56

For example, we plan to alter the battle slightly so that a team with two bases captured can more quickly and easily capture the third, as opposed to a team with one or zero bases. This way, if the defenders turtle up, it'll be a little easier for the attackers to take their last base before the defense can take one of the attackers' other bases.

I quite like that. Sounds like it might be interesting.

Comment by minad

on 2011/01/11 03:48:41

The very big problem about Tol Barad? It's almost IMPOSSIBLE to be called! Me and my guildmates always queue at least 3-4 times/day and only a couple of us are called and just 1 time. How can we help winning Tol Barad if we cannot enter the battle?

You can help. You gets picked sometimes so then you can help. Its random and many seem to queue for its battle. And you can highener the spirit of the battle. In bridge.

Comment by frankc

on 2011/01/11 09:38:26

ive found that if im in tol when i que i always join but if im in sw or questing i rarely get to join, hope this helps

Comment by Roackprime

on 2011/01/11 10:43:13

I understand the Meta-design (winning means something that extends over several hours) but how does that square with the "deep of night" on most servers when population falls? At that point essentially TB reverts to whichever faction has the higher percentage of insomniacs. And yes, on medium population severs there are some periods in the small hours of the morning when population is pretty low. I have seen TB battles of 16 vs. 9

Comment by xaratherus

on 2011/01/11 11:06:38

I like pallylock's idea, as well as CrunkJuice's idea about tower destruction increasing the defenders' respawn timer.

Comment by lonewarrior

on 2011/01/11 11:09:06

What was fully broken? What doesn't work? I have 0 problems at this time, sure there were a few unbalanced things but as a whole the game works fine. And yes, aside from letting millions of people test the beta, they did everything they could to test the game.

Besides the 'cheesy honor' fix, what have they done wrong the make game 'sooo broken' that millions upon millions of people stopped playing.

Wait, what? They didn't stop? It's just a few whiners who are mad at one zone? Oh, my bad.

I spent a lot of time in all the BG's. My personal assessment is to forget about defend mechanisms. Seriously, the proportion of the WoW population that takes to defending is frustratingly low. Any time spent in EOS, AB..etc will attest to people just loving to attack. Just look at AV, factions just passes on each side and attempts to zerg. If the zerg fails..it's pretty much a slaughter fest somewhere in the middle. In WG..how often were the towers ever defended? BG defending is either non-existent, poorly applied or exploited.Isle of Conquest, is a step in the right direction, that can be improved upon.

Otherwise, just create a Gladiatorial Stadium(ala faction champs in TOC) and call it "Fighting in the Middle" since that is what usually ends up happening(I could then delete my macro "stop fighting in the middle and defend")Drop the first 20 ques from each faction in and have at it. Add some neutral wild animals that attack when hit to add to the frenzy. When someone dies, a que in waiting is dropped into the fight and the opposite side has a portion of their health restored to compensate for the fresh player.When the allotted ques have been used up(1-20 extra), last faction standing wins. Simple and bloody. In the image of World PvP that has become extinct.

Comment by Crunkjuice

on 2011/01/12 15:44:14

I actually think Tol'Barad and Tol'Barad Peninsula was a great idea. It is definetly better than WG where nobody would be in that zone until WG time. The amount of fun I've had questing and ganking people in TB Peninsula while I wait on my BG que has been awesome. You can really get into some great world pvp fights! After a TB battle there are lots of people in the zone trying to Rep up and do quests, which means there are always people to gank. As long as Blizz makes it so that people will continue to do those quests in TB Peninsula, and fix some problems with TB, it will be a successful zone.