[ASL6] Ro8 EffOrt vs Rain - Page 9

^ Pretty much. EffOrt played really well overall. Rain lost to his macro and he came really close to defending on Autobahn as well. I don't think Rain is the best example of a great PvZer. Before anyone talks about him being hero (I know I did in my preview), the maps were favoured towards protoss to a certain degree. I'm talking in regards to maps like Sparkle etc...

On that note, I got the prediction right :D

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I do agree regarding the protoss players needing to be more consistent, and this being on them. Just, given that they are what they are, and there isn't a <insert favorite player here> for protoss, do you consider making the maps a bit easier for them, or just accept it.

They were good games, but Rain definitely made errors. It's not a matter of , oh, what can protoss do?

Which is part of why I think, well, let's see how he does vs Last before we declare Effort is 'back', too.

I can't agree with any of this. You all say shit like "Rain's POOR DECISION MAKING", but you forgot the biggest point of this fucking imbalance: Protoss is in the COMPLETE DARK. Rain did SO much to get the vital intel with hidden probes, Zealot scouts, VERY thorough Corsair scouts, and still either dies to a hydra bust OR Zerg can just fake hydra bust and expand to 9 hatches.

You say POOR DECISION MAKING with vision of the whole map. The most broken part about this is that Protoss has to guess between hydra bust or fake hydra bust, and EVEN IF its a FAKE early Hydra bust, you can pump enough Hydras out to 1) force Protoss into a very defense position and 2) still increase your eco.

On October 10 2018 07:08 ShowTheLights wrote:What the FUCK is Protoss supposed to do better on Game 1 Circuit Breakers or Autobahn game 3? I'm so fucking close to quitting watching SC1 with how SHITTY PvZ is. Hydra busts/fake hydra busts into 9 hatch is so fucking stupid

Please fucking tell me bc its been like this for over 2 years

What Bonyth said about the Autobahn map is true. It has a big design flaw with the destructibles being too low on HP.About Circuit Breaker: Rain played an unusual two forge strategy that was perfectly countered by Effort, and Rain's macro was sloppy. There's not much else to be said about that game, it just didn't work out.Also, Effort is a beast in ZvP. People have to play incredibly well to beat him and to me it didn't look like Rain was up to par.

I'd say ZvP is still perfectly playable, no reason to worry.

Thanks for pointing that out. Either more HP or more of them stacked. Affecting the early game that much is a deal breaker in PvZ.

On October 10 2018 16:14 ShowTheLights wrote:I can't agree with any of this. You all say shit like "Rain's POOR DECISION MAKING", but you forgot the biggest point of this fucking imbalance: Protoss is in the COMPLETE DARK. Rain did SO much to get the vital intel with hidden probes, Zealot scouts, VERY thorough Corsair scouts, and still either dies to a hydra bust OR Zerg can just fake hydra bust and expand to 9 hatches.

You say POOR DECISION MAKING with vision of the whole map. The most broken part about this is that Protoss has to guess between hydra bust or fake hydra bust, and EVEN IF its a FAKE early Hydra bust, you can pump enough Hydras out to 1) force Protoss into a very defense position and 2) still increase your eco.

Dude, you can't play against zerg for 10+ minutes and don't put on any pressure whatsoever. You know why Bisu was so good against zerg? To put it simply, because he played way more aggressive than any of his colleges, forced the zerg to build units in inconvenient moments, did damage to the economy etc. Rain did the exact opposite. He did absolutely nothing. The corsairs got the bare minimum (1 overlord), he didn't have a push ready at any point. Zerg can build a giant economy with way more workers than protoss if not pressured. There is a reason why in both MUs (TvZ and PvT) the terran and the protoss have to push at an early point to prevent the zerg from droning up to heavily. And don't tell me Rain didn't know what was coming in g1.

In G3 it was different because of map imbalance. Rain knew what was coming, reacted perfectly, still lost. He would have won on another map imho because all the back cannons he had to build would have either been in front or pushed his storm timing forward if not built.

On October 10 2018 16:14 ShowTheLights wrote:I can't agree with any of this. You all say shit like "Rain's POOR DECISION MAKING", but you forgot the biggest point of this fucking imbalance: Protoss is in the COMPLETE DARK. Rain did SO much to get the vital intel with hidden probes, Zealot scouts, VERY thorough Corsair scouts, and still either dies to a hydra bust OR Zerg can just fake hydra bust and expand to 9 hatches.

You say POOR DECISION MAKING with vision of the whole map. The most broken part about this is that Protoss has to guess between hydra bust or fake hydra bust, and EVEN IF its a FAKE early Hydra bust, you can pump enough Hydras out to 1) force Protoss into a very defense position and 2) still increase your eco.

Cmon at this point you are just whining for the sake of it. Rain is by no means a good PvZer and he only lost one game because of map imbalance. Game 1 Effort didn't even do anything funny, he macroed up with 0 pressure from Rain and rolled him over. How come we don't see the same complaints when Protoss were rolling Zerg over on Sparkle and Third World last season? Map imbalances are part of Brood War and the great players overcome that with skill and practice.

Rain just isn't a good PvZer as shown in his series against Jaedong and Effort. You can even argue he might not have won ASL last season if not for the imbalanced maps and meeting mostly Terran and Protoss.

Speaking of PvZ I think Shuttle is massively underrated and his series vs Action should be very exciting.

Rain's reaction was fine. Near to the end he was mined out but with lots of gas. He chose to just build extra HT instead of Dark Archon or Corsairs, which require more minerals. The fight before the end he had 8 HT, and 5 (250/750) were sniped. I think this is a fair trade considering he killed ~6 mutas (600/600). The 3 remaining would have kept him safe from the hydras.

Where he was caught out was that he tried to push with the remaining 3, but effort had made more mutas, sniped those 3 and then gg. I think he was not expecting Effort to have rebuilt the muta flock so quickly, and thought that he had a chance at a push with guaranteed 3 HT (because he had just killed most of the muta flock).What I think he should have done was to regroup after the muta pickoff, and collect the next newly built 5 HT. Then he would have been fine. But this is with hindsight and that a new muta flock was ready so soon.

A: I get this question a lot. Um... I think it is half-half. I play like Bisu in PvZ and like Stork in PvT.

Wow this guy slyly bragging haha

I don't recall Bisu sitting back and letting zerg macro, or floating 1.9k minerals because he only made 7 gates on 3 bases, or not making enough canonns to defend an early rush that he knew was coming.

I've always been supporting of players, even when they beat the player I was rooting for (eg Last beating JD in KSL) but Rain just doesn't know where he stands.

On October 10 2018 13:42 BigFan wrote:^ Pretty much. EffOrt played really well overall. Rain lost to his macro and he came really close to defending on Autobahn as well. I don't think Rain is the best example of a great PvZer. Before anyone talks about him being hero (I know I did in my preview), the maps were favoured towards protoss to a certain degree. I'm talking in regards to maps like Sparkle etc...

On that note, I got the prediction right :D

Typical BigFan, writing these things in the same article

This matchup will prove to be very exciting as we see Rain, the ASL5 champion and one of the Top 3 protoss players atm go up against EffOrt, a scrappy Zerg

Considering everything, and the fact that EffOrt is the best ZvPer at the moment, I predict him to advance to the semifinals, 3-1.

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On October 10 2018 21:05 Muff2n wrote:My 2 cents on the last game and muta snipes:

Rain's reaction was fine. Near to the end he was mined out but with lots of gas. He chose to just build extra HT instead of Dark Archon or Corsairs, which require more minerals. The fight before the end he had 8 HT, and 5 (250/750) were sniped. I think this is a fair trade considering he killed ~6 mutas (600/600). The 3 remaining would have kept him safe from the hydras.

Where he was caught out was that he tried to push with the remaining 3, but effort had made more mutas, sniped those 3 and then gg. I think he was not expecting Effort to have rebuilt the muta flock so quickly, and thought that he had a chance at a push with guaranteed 3 HT (because he had just killed most of the muta flock).What I think he should have done was to regroup after the muta pickoff, and collect the next newly built 5 HT. Then he would have been fine. But this is with hindsight and that a new muta flock was ready so soon.

6 mutas for 5 HTs is not even close to a fair trade.

In the Escape from F Rank video series Effort talks about trading 12 hydras for 2 HTs being a great trade...

It's not about the matchup. It's about the maps. Last season the maps were favorable for protoss and everyone called them bad maps. This season maps are good for zvp and everyone calls them standard.

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On October 10 2018 07:08 ShowTheLights wrote:What the FUCK is Protoss supposed to do better on Game 1 Circuit Breakers or Autobahn game 3? I'm so fucking close to quitting watching SC1 with how SHITTY PvZ is. Hydra busts/fake hydra busts into 9 hatch is so fucking stupid

Please fucking tell me bc its been like this for over 2 years

Honestly not much. I think this is the main reason that makes PvZ more unfair in comparison with all other matches. There is this fairly big phase in the beginning where zergs can do many things offensively, without being in danger, while protosses can only static defend, many times blindly and when zergs' shit works, it kills the protoss, but when it does not work, the game continue on 50/50 basis (minus the cases where zergs over-committed for no reason, but this is still due to the zerg's actions, not related to what protoss is doing). However, I dont see how this can be changed. In all other match ups each race has a unit or simple combo that can react to anything the opponent sends based on micro. In TvP, protoss has dragoons that can hold anything early game, terran has tanks/vultures to hold the protoss. In TvZ terran has this universal M&M composition that can react to anything the zerg sends and zerg has mutas that can deal with every terran thing based on micro, however, in PvZ for protoss this unit is the cannon, protoss race just does not have a unit that can face all things that zergs can send, protoss has to have specific answer for each zerg strat and if it doesnt, protoss just dies. Actually the psi storm is that thing, but it comes too slow.

Well this is exactly what zvt feels like.

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On October 10 2018 07:08 ShowTheLights wrote:What the FUCK is Protoss supposed to do better on Game 1 Circuit Breakers or Autobahn game 3? I'm so fucking close to quitting watching SC1 with how SHITTY PvZ is. Hydra busts/fake hydra busts into 9 hatch is so fucking stupid

Please fucking tell me bc its been like this for over 2 years

Honestly not much. I think this is the main reason that makes PvZ more unfair in comparison with all other matches. There is this fairly big phase in the beginning where zergs can do many things offensively, without being in danger, while protosses can only static defend, many times blindly and when zergs' shit works, it kills the protoss, but when it does not work, the game continue on 50/50 basis (minus the cases where zergs over-committed for no reason, but this is still due to the zerg's actions, not related to what protoss is doing). However, I dont see how this can be changed. In all other match ups each race has a unit or simple combo that can react to anything the opponent sends based on micro. In TvP, protoss has dragoons that can hold anything early game, terran has tanks/vultures to hold the protoss. In TvZ terran has this universal M&M composition that can react to anything the zerg sends and zerg has mutas that can deal with every terran thing based on micro, however, in PvZ for protoss this unit is the cannon, protoss race just does not have a unit that can face all things that zergs can send, protoss has to have specific answer for each zerg strat and if it doesnt, protoss just dies. Actually the psi storm is that thing, but it comes too slow.

Well this is exactly what zvt feels like.

Mind to explain why? I probably can guess that you mean the phase where terran goes with the 1st M&Ms on the map and zerg needs to hold and I can agree that its hard for zerg, however, the main differences are that zerg does not need to guess what is the terran doing and also the zerg can hold with good micro on active units like muta/lings and some some static defense like 2-3 sunkens which are common sense where they have to be build, while in PvZ, protoss does not have units who can actively fight zerg on the map, no matter how good of a micro he has, so his only option is cannons, moreover, cannons that its not really clear where and how many they have to be and even one wrong cannon will cost the game, not a slight advantage for the zerg, but the whole game. And I am not trying to say that its imbalanced, at the end of the day, protoss has in its arsenal a way to deal with zergs, but its kind of unfair imo, a bit, but unfair

On October 10 2018 21:05 Muff2n wrote:My 2 cents on the last game and muta snipes:

Rain's reaction was fine. Near to the end he was mined out but with lots of gas. He chose to just build extra HT instead of Dark Archon or Corsairs, which require more minerals. The fight before the end he had 8 HT, and 5 (250/750) were sniped. I think this is a fair trade considering he killed ~6 mutas (600/600). The 3 remaining would have kept him safe from the hydras.

That calculation has nothing to do with how a real game plays out.

3 remaining templars is not enough at that point of the game. Especially not since some of them wasted their storms on the mutas.