I have friends who I just recently found out have been involved with girls. I've explained to them many times how it's wrong for a bachur or even any regular jewish boy to talk to girls from a halachic stand point. I'm not looking for a theoretical answer , I want something practical that I can tell these bachurim that may get them to stop.

bigboy, from a practical standpoint you can tell them that on the girls side word spreads very quickly and their reps can go down the drain in no time. grls usually are loud abt the fact that they hang out with guys and will talk abt it in school and will tell their frnds which guys they hooked up with, and word gets around really fast. her parents mite find out, her teachers, etc. (i personally know of a case where a girls mother found out and she called the boys father!! yikes!!!)
also, u mite try the whole guilt complex thing- tell them that if their hanging out with these grls gets the grls to drop in ruchniyus (were not even talking the guys ruchniyus!) and she does aveiros because of him, or starts her going off the derech, then he is responsible for this!!! that's a huge responsibility which you don't want to have!
besides, how good do they think their marriage will be if they will always know that they liked a diff grl and did things with her that they wouldn't want their wives to know abt. what kind of marriage will that be, starting out with secrets like that? it isn't worth the few minutes of enjoyment that they get at this point of their lives to jeopardize their marriages and neshamos. not hanging out with these grls will reflect their maturity and their ability to roeh es hanolad- see the consequenses of their actions.

Firstly, to "Me Again", you say some very wise things... if it were girls you were dealing with! You've heard that reasoning being said and used for girls, but it doesn't really work theoretically on guys.
Hashem created women to be more emotionally inclined, therefore, such arguements are the common ones given to girls.

From a bochur's point of view, things are very diffferent...

You can't bring in intellectual and emotional reasoning to try and stop a guy from dating, unless of course he's looking for the reasoning.

I'll explain with a "moshel"...
Let's say you're really good on a diet, and at the end of the day you take a chocolate chip cookie from the jar. Suddenly, your older sister comes and starts telling you how unhealthy it is, and that you should be eating celery, and all these reasons why you shouldn't eat it.
Do you honestly care? You never asked her to be your gaurd.
Had you asked her though to be in charge and stop you from eating cookies, then you would listen and feel good.
If it were a random doctor though, who told you that you must not eat cookies, and with his professionalism explained to you why etc, you're more likely to stay away.

Thus, if these guys are looking for answers, there's definately what to tell them, but if they're not, you're in a whole other ball game!
Firstly, if you are not asked for your opinion, then you're going to be like the annoying older sister telling them to eat celery...
Everything has to be done with tact.
Perhaps there is a "professional", a Rabbi, Mashpia, etc, who can talk to these guys and deal with it. And NO, i do not mean to tattle tell! Without mentioning names, ask a Rabbi at your Yeshiva what he thinks, and let him decide the best way to action.

If you try to help people with these matters, and you're not capable of doing so, you can c''v bring a lot of damage upon yourself, so tread with caution, and much hatzlocha.

Firstly to n'eNow770, I could have asked a rabbi but I don't feel comfortable doing so, and I'm not sure how competent they are in these matters. I was just wondering if maybe somebody has been in a similiar situation or if they know somebody who was in a similiar situation, and maybe can give advice on how they solved it.

I've seen this issue adressed many times on this site, but so far nobody has given a practical answer. And I agree with not asking the rabbis they aren't experienced and if you asked them such a question they would start investigating and you might get your friends in trouble. They're not as interested in your yiddishkeit as they are in catching you and keeping the yeshivas reputation.

I have friends who I just recently found out have been involved with girls. I've explained to them many times how it's wrong for a bachur or even any regular jewish boy to talk to girls from a halachic stand point. I'm not looking for a theoretical answer , I want something practical that I can tell these bachurim that may get them to stop.

I am really going out on a limb with this one, but I once had a tayva for movies that I got rid of by watching the movies I liked (probably acceptable ones at that - old Israeli comedies) so much that I got bored and no longer was interested in watching any movies. With talking to girls it is different but it may work as well - let him talk to girls at semi-appropriate settings like chassunes and he may see he is just invading their territory at this point and he'll be turned off.

Alternately, contact a rabbi outside your community anonymously - maybe look at the list on Askmoses.com and see if anyone there can help (use their e-mail - don't clog up the site as it really isn't for unzerer) - for advice.

So will you be the one to take care of the mess when they become pregnant?

To what extent is this "talking to girls" going? And what are the ages of the bochurim?
I suggest you tell them, not only because it is wrong and you want to give them mussar, but because thei are your friends and you really really care about them.
Also, when these bochurim talk to girls? After seder? On the phone or do they meet, if they meet why don't you make it your business to distract your friends and introduce them to somthing else, baseball game or soccer, or whatever activity where a boy could be fulfilled ( instead f running to girls)

It is not a simple issue, I am SURPRISED and WORRIED by the fact that you couldn't fine ONE rabbi/mashpia/mashgiach...etc that could provide you with good advice...now that worries me more than anything.

Well it is quite simple, have them stop in moderation, let them still speak to Rebitzens and other adults, and little kids. Also at first let them speak to their cousins who are girls, I know that this is chalachicly wrong, since the Torah permits marriage of cousins. You could at first go as far as even letting them talk to their sisters' friends. Slowly they will stop talking to girls all together. Start hanging out with them less and less if they are going to hang out with girls. Also show by example that by Torah law they can have fun without having to talk to girls, which therefore breaks halacha.

Well it is quite simple, have them stop in moderation, let them still speak to Rebitzens and other adults, and little kids. Also at first let them speak to their cousins who are girls, I know that this is chalachicly wrong, since the Torah permits marriage of cousins. You could at first go as far as even letting them talk to their sisters' friends. Slowly they will stop talking to girls all together. Start hanging out with them less and less if they are going to hang out with girls. Also show by example that by Torah law they can have fun without having to talk to girls, which therefore breaks halacha.

BS"D
Firstly, all this is supposing that they want to stop talking to girls. From what it seems, they do not. Secondly, why would speaking to their sister's friends stop them from wanting to speak to girls?! If anything, it will make it easier for them!

I agree with Perel770, it's awful that there is no Rabbi/Mashpia you can discuss this with. Can't you tell a Rabbi who is not part of your Yeshiva, and ask him for advice?

I agree with Perel770, it's awful that there is no Rabbi/Mashpia you can discuss this with. Can't you tell a Rabbi who is not part of your Yeshiva, and ask him for advice?

If I could ask a rabbi or mashpia I wouldn't be on this sight. I think that's the biggest problem, a lot of these guys have no one whom they can discuss their issue with. Most of these rabbis don't relate to these situations since they are from last generation.

isn't there someone younger, not even necessarily a teacher, but someone from the community who farbrengs with the boys once in a while who could maybe bring this up in farbrengins.
maybe boys should have a similar system to what the girls have- every once in a while a speaker comes to town, usually someone very talented and convincing, and there is the option to leave anonymous questions for when the speaker lectures at the Yeshiva? this won't solve the problem but maybe will help boys who are thinking about doing this.
in my opinion i think that every Yeshiva and school should have a class with a teacher who is approachable, who can discuss things with the students, kind of like a hashkafa class where students can discuss anything and everything. we have a class like that and many times when we discuss general issues (we don't get specific) students realize they are being stupid about something (warranted the student has to be open to other opinions because if not nothing will help until the student is ready to hear and possibly change). Peer pressure works in this kind of case!

i think that what bigboy meant was that in the last generation it wasn't common for "chassidish" yeshiva boys to go to yeshiva, learn and hang out with girls, while still maintaining or wanting to maintain a semblence of their chassidishkeit (or appearing chassidish), which is unfortunately all too common today.
a cute way that one rosh yeshiva dealt with this issue- a boy in the yeshiva dorm had pictures of a girl and was caught, so the rosh yeshiva told him that if he really liked the girl he would be mesader kedushin at their wedding, and went on and on abt how he could arrange it and e/t. funny take on it. (this yeshiva does still have issues with girls though, unfortunately)

So will you be the one to take care of the mess when they become pregnant?

Ichhh....Bittul, you can't spare words, can you?

Tell the guy he is causing himself only trouble, since this aveira is one that is nearly impossible to correct...

And for those who said that he causes girls to do an aveira, it's the other way around- all the aveirot are the guy's, except for the achrayut of causing another yid to sin, which is the girl's. What the girl gets is issues in ruchniyut, as well as emotionally.

[...] boys=drugs=alcohol=trouble...it's all the same level, unless you're searching for a life partner- with the intent of marrying them after a reasonable time, and with the assistance of your parents, and/or rav, etc. Otherwise, you're playing around- and playing with fire. Go ahead, see how it feels to get burned.

Last edited by Rabbi_D; 05-19-2008 at 08:13 PM.
Reason: rude and offensive comment

isn't there someone younger, not even necessarily a teacher, but someone from the community who farbrengs with the boys once in a while who could maybe bring this up in farbrengins.

Unfortunately the yeshivos don't have such people farbrenging or even available to talk to.
And when I said last generation, I meant that they don't think in the same mindset of yeshiva bochur. Although they may have been in similar situations, which I highly doubt, they can't see it the same way a teenager or a younger mashpia would.

Slander the boys to the girls or vice versa! Snitch! Get someone in trouble if you realy care about them so much! Tell parents! You might get burnt a bit, but that's Mesiras nefesh for ahavas yisroel! (As is known the story of the Rebbe who framed a girl as a thief to prevent her from marrying a Shvatze)...
There's nothing to farbreng about! It's actualy against the Rebbe's shita!
As someone put it before - this is not an intellectual thing at all to say the least. As one Chossid once said about the Maskilim - if you would remove that "Eyver" that wants Znus -all their Haskolos would go out the window!
Any sort of draw that a boy has to a girl is [...] is addictive just like drugs and alchohol. And if you allow it to linger, before long that Tayva WILL be fulfilled! And let me tell ya, that once that happens, EVERYTHING ELSE will go quite quickly. Like the pusok warns about not marrying a Moavite - "Pen Tasir Es Bincha..." how the "love" to the wrong person will bring to A"Z. And once they start sleeping around, it's VERY hard to stop! As the Gemoroh says that there's a small organ in the body that if one starves it - it becomes sated, and if one gives it it's desires, it remains ever so hungry!
If YOU were asking advice about yourself, I would say STOP cold turkey! But since it's about your friends, all I can say is Daven for them with all your might and try to distract them to better things! But if you think you can farbreng with them - dream on! [...]