I've never had much of a connection to CTR but I liked the books of his I've read. I also liked the one I read by his Dharma regent that I read years ago. I can't remember much about it now, though.

Anyway the reason I thought I'd post on this thread was to ask about the tradition that CTR was part of and how that shaped his approach. Was being a student of Khenpo Gangshar significant in CTR's later behaviour, rather than the western students he was teaching? I've had some contact with a few Kagyu lamas that CTR was close to in England and other students of Khenpo Gangshar. None of them act in a crazy/controversial way, as far as I know.

Also, it seems CTR has influenced other lamas active in teaching in the west, maybe, from what I have heard, inspiring them to misbehave. This would be a more serious legacy, I think.

michaelb wrote:I've never had much of a connection to CTR but I liked the books of his I've read. I also liked the one I read by his Dharma regent that I read years ago. I can't remember much about it now, though.

Anyway the reason I thought I'd post on this thread was to ask about the tradition that CTR was part of and how that shaped his approach. Was being a student of Khenpo Gangshar significant in CTR's later behaviour, rather than the western students he was teaching? I've had some contact with a few Kagyu lamas that CTR was close to in England and other students of Khenpo Gangshar. None of them act in a crazy/controversial way, as far as I know.

Also, it seems CTR has influenced other lamas active in teaching in the west, maybe, from what I have heard, inspiring them to misbehave. This would be a more serious legacy, I think.

michaelb

Your post reminded me of Lama Chime who lives in England and was also a student Khenpo Gangshar and one of the first Tibetans to come to the west. I heard Lama Chime say that once that when Trungpa Rinpoche was around him (Lama Chime) he (Trungpa Rinpoche) would get a little crazy.

Lama Chime is one of those extraordinary Lamas who has kept a very low profile, married an English woman, had three kids, worked in a 9-5 most of his life, etc., made no trouble, created no scandals and still managed to be an extraordinary teacher.

Yes. There are others, too. Maybe their lack of controversy and rather quiet way of doing things meant they had less of an impact on western Dharma culture, but perhaps having such an impact isn't the only thing that counts when judging the value of a lama.

michaelb wrote:I've never had much of a connection to CTR but I liked the books of his I've read. I also liked the one I read by his Dharma regent that I read years ago. I can't remember much about it now, though.

Anyway the reason I thought I'd post on this thread was to ask about the tradition that CTR was part of and how that shaped his approach. Was being a student of Khenpo Gangshar significant in CTR's later behaviour, rather than the western students he was teaching? I've had some contact with a few Kagyu lamas that CTR was close to in England and other students of Khenpo Gangshar. None of them act in a crazy/controversial way, as far as I know.

Also, it seems CTR has influenced other lamas active in teaching in the west, maybe, from what I have heard, inspiring them to misbehave. This would be a more serious legacy, I think.

Trungpa Rinpoche was very close to Khenpo Gangshar. There is a story Thrangu Rinpoche tell were Khenpo Gangshar take water from a puddle on the street and put it in his kapala and then he says something like; "If I had real student he drink this pure nectar". Thrangu Rinpoce says; "I tasted a little but Trungpa Rinpoche drank a lot". Khenpo Gangshar did many crazy things that was considered horrible at the time, like persuading monks and nuns to give up there vows. But he also gave direct introduction to everyone that he could (like ChNNR do now).

/magnus

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa

What we underestimate in trying to judge or generalize Trungpa's students (even if we narrow it down to those who later became teachers) is that he taught THOUSANDS of people. His communities were so far-reaching and vast. It seems like every few days I read about yet another dedicated practitioner in their 60s or 70s or 80s who learned their first Dharma lessons at CTR's knee------and they are as diverse as you can imagine!

There are those who are low profile and who no doubt remain unknown to most of us...then there are Dharma rockstars like Pema Chodron. There are Lamas who are wingnuts and crazies, obvious Charlatans who may never have even met CTR but claim to be his "Heart sons"...and then there is Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo, who was arguably his first Western student.

Nilasarasvati wrote:...and then there is Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo, who was arguably his first Western student.

I'm not sure Tenzin Palmo would see herself like this, except maybe as an observation of an event that happened before she really started out on the path.

Much of this discussion has been about CTR's western students, but I've a feeling that his approach was shaped also by his lama and he would have been unconventional, like Khenpo Gangshar, even if he had never left Tibet.

Of course, never having met him, I could be very wrong, but it's interesting to look at him in the context of his tradition and peers rather than just his students.

Last edited by michaelb on Sat Jun 15, 2013 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Nilasarasvati wrote:...and then there is Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo, who was arguably his first Western student.

I'm not sure Tenzin Palmo would see herself like this ...

Here is a passage from "Cave in the Snow":

'Shortly after I met him. he turned to me and said: "Youmay find this difficult to believe, but actually back in Tibet Iwas quite a high lama and I never thought it would come tothis but please, can I teach you meditation? I must have onedisciple!"'Tenzin Palmo was only too willing. She became a privatepupil of the talented Trungpa.

Sure. I'm not doubting that she knew him in England and regularly met him and said "sure, why not?" when he asked if he could be her meditation teacher, but I think saying she was his first western student probably affords the relationship more than it's due. Having said that, I don't know, but I seem to remember her playing it down when asked about it.

She sailed off to India not long after, with CTR's encouragement, and met her lama, Khamtrul Rinpoche.

michaelb wrote:I've never had much of a connection to CTR but liked the books of his I've read. I also liked the one I read by his Dharma regent that I read years ago. I can't remember much about it now, though.

Anyway the reason I thought I'd post on this thread was to ask about the tradition that CTR was part of and how that shaped his approach. Was being a student of Khenpo Gangshar significant in CTR's later behaviour, rather than the western students he was teaching? I've had some contact with a few Kagyu lamas that CTR was close to in England and other students of Khenpo Gangshar. None of them act in a crazy/controversial way, as far as I know.

Also, it seems CTR has influenced other lamas active in teaching in the west, maybe, from what I have heard, inspiring them to misbehave. This would be a more serious legacy, I think.

michaelb

Your post reminded me of Lama Chime who lives in England and was also a student Khenpo Gangshar and one of the first Tibetans to come to the west. I heard Lama Chime say that once that when Trungpa Rinpoche was around him (Lama Chime) he (Trungpa Rinpoche) would get a little crazy.

Lama Chime is one of those extraordinary Lamas who has kept a very low profile, married an English woman, had three kids, worked in a 9-5 most of his life, etc., made no trouble, created no scandals and still managed to be an extraordinary teacher.

Another one of those lamas I have only love for.

Hi Malabeads....

Have you ever met and spoke with Chime Rinpoche?

I have met him on many occasions when I lived at Samye Ling... Publically he is very low key, you're right... But privately he has a real wild streak, and is quite unpredictable! I won't go into details here, but believe me he has a real streak of Khenpo Gangshar! I hope you have the fortune to experience this side of him... It was a real eye opener for me, as I was used to many Lamas being very formal and straight laced, even in private. Chime R has shocked me a few times... But it was refreshing!!

michaelb wrote:I've never had much of a connection to CTR but liked the books of his I've read. I also liked the one I read by his Dharma regent that I read years ago. I can't remember much about it now, though.

Anyway the reason I thought I'd post on this thread was to ask about the tradition that CTR was part of and how that shaped his approach. Was being a student of Khenpo Gangshar significant in CTR's later behaviour, rather than the western students he was teaching? I've had some contact with a few Kagyu lamas that CTR was close to in England and other students of Khenpo Gangshar. None of them act in a crazy/controversial way, as far as I know.

Also, it seems CTR has influenced other lamas active in teaching in the west, maybe, from what I have heard, inspiring them to misbehave. This would be a more serious legacy, I think.

michaelb

Your post reminded me of Lama Chime who lives in England and was also a student Khenpo Gangshar and one of the first Tibetans to come to the west. I heard Lama Chime say that once that when Trungpa Rinpoche was around him (Lama Chime) he (Trungpa Rinpoche) would get a little crazy.

Lama Chime is one of those extraordinary Lamas who has kept a very low profile, married an English woman, had three kids, worked in a 9-5 most of his life, etc., made no trouble, created no scandals and still managed to be an extraordinary teacher.

Another one of those lamas I have only love for.

Hi Malabeads....

Have you ever met and spoke with Chime Rinpoche?

I have met him on many occasions when I lived at Samye Ling... Publically he is very low key, you're right... But privately he has a real wild streak, and is quite unpredictable! I won't go into details here, but believe me he has a real streak of Khenpo Gangshar! I hope you have the fortune to experience this side of him... It was a real eye opener for me, as I was used to many Lamas being very formal and straight laced, even in private. Chime R has shocked me a few times... But it was refreshing!!

Yes, I have met him and consider him to be one of my heart lamas. I have been to his center in Ashdon twice (in fact I showed up at Kham House unexpectedly one day when they were having a fancy dress birthday party for him. Not having a costume, I just told everyone that I came as an american!) and have received teachings from him in the USA twice. He's truly wonderful.

michaelb wrote:Sure. I'm not doubting that she knew him in England and regularly met him and said "sure, why not?" when he asked if he could be her meditation teacher, but I think saying she was his first western student probably affords the relationship more than it's due. Having said that, I don't know, but I seem to remember her playing it down when asked about it.

She sailed off to India not long after, with CTR's encouragement, and met her lama, Khamtrul Rinpoche.

Anyway, this is all of limited importance.

It's not that important, but it does appear that she literally was his first western student. He was not her most important teacher, but if you read that book it is clear that he was an important influence:

On a more serious level, he was there to meet her barrageof questions and to engage in heated arguments which bothof them enjoyed. He told her many things which she didn'tunderstand at all at the time but which made sense later on.And he gave her her first meditation lessons, teaching her howto observe the mind, how to make it relaxed but alert at thesame time. Tenzin Palmo was in her element. 'I thought it waswonderful. I always felt meditation was the essence of the pathand I had great faith in Trungpa,' she said.

Through Dzogchen we can really understand what God is and we don’t have to worry if there is a God or not. God always exists as our real nature, the base, for everybody. - Chögyal Namkhai Norbu

On a more serious level, he was there to meet her barrageof questions and to engage in heated arguments which bothof them enjoyed. He told her many things which she didn'tunderstand at all at the time but which made sense later on.And he gave her her first meditation lessons, teaching her howto observe the mind, how to make it relaxed but alert at thesame time. Tenzin Palmo was in her element. 'I thought it waswonderful. I always felt meditation was the essence of the pathand I had great faith in Trungpa,' she said.

Yup. That sure does make the case... sounds like a teacher-student relationship for sure.

Also, michaelb, you say

She sailed off to India not long after, with CTR's encouragement, and met her lama, Khamtrul Rinpoche

and my read of this is another great skillful means: he (her first teacher) sent her on her way to meet her karmic root lama and fulfill her potential to do the type of retreat then only possible in that region. And he had other matters (and future disciples, -a great many-) to tend to in the west.

Contentment is the ultimate wealth;Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

I don't disagree with any of this. I just think listing Tenzin Palmo as CTR's first western student is probably a retrospective view more based on her current status than what actually happened at the time. In "Reflections on a Mountain Lake" she says, "So, whenever we met Thrungpa and asked him, "when can we see you again?" he would say, "Next weekend." One weekend he would come to us and the next weekend we would go to him."Who are these other people she refers to? Forgotten as they didn't go on to be famous realised practitioners? Did they actually meet CTR before Tenzin Palmo?Sorry, this really isn't important to a discussion on CTR because I think the proposition that Tenzin Palmo became a great practitioner because she met Thrungpa isn't true. She was going to India anyway, with or without CTR's encouragement. Of course, that isn't to say she wasn't necessarily his first western student, but that it isn't that significant if she was.

michaelb wrote:Who are these other people she refers to? Forgotten as they didn't go on to be famous realised practitioners? Did they actually meet CTR before Tenzin Palmo?

Maybe, and perhaps this is a valid point.. but in that first quote from the same book earlier in the thread he is saying "I must have one disciple!" which sounds like he didn't have one yet. So perhaps some others joined her around the same time.. but she was the first..

I think the proposition that Tenzin Palmo became a great practitioner because she met Thrungpa isn't true.

No one was saying that.. but networks of karmic connections are hard to fathom except for Buddhas. .

She was going to India anyway, with or without CTR's encouragement.

But would she have set out on the journey without the introduction to meditation, the guidance she had already gotten from him? How could you or anyone know this? As I said, networks of karmic connections are hard to fathom except for Buddhas

but that it isn't that significant if she was.

Perhaps it was, who are you to make the determination? It is a point of interest for some, and may be more significant for him and her then you could know. . .

Contentment is the ultimate wealth;Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha