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Attempting to solve Code 25.

Hello! I own a small computer repair shop where we do micro-soldering of small components daily. I recently purchased an 04 R-12X Aquatrax with exactly 120 hours on it. This ski was in beautiful condition, and had been kept up with all it's papers. Not a single scratch on the hull, and not a spec of rest on the turbo/wastegate housing. I put about 20 hours on it with no issues at all. A few days ago, I attached a small tube and pulled one of my friends kids (about 50lbs) for about 30 minutes. I know towing on these isn't the greatest idea, but it barley felt like a load at all on the ski. (Comparing what it felt like towing a 150lb rider behind a Sea Doo). Anyways, right when we were finishing up, I got the "Beep beep beep" and thought it was low fuel but saw the FI light was on. I restarted the ski and it was gone. Not knowing how to check codes, I headed home (About 10 minutes away) with no issues at all. A few more days pass with just regular riding and no issues at all.. Small wake jumping here and there when suddenly "beep beep beep!" I pull the codes and yep, you guessed it, code 25. I do a quick look up on my phone while on the ski, and see that it's the knock sensor. "Okay cool, so I need a new knock sensor I thought to myself".. I clear the code and continue riding keeping in mind I may have failing knock sensor so I take it a little easier. No problems for the rest of the day. I few more days pass, I take the ski out, and within the first 2 minutes "BEEP BEEP BEEP" guess who's back? Code 25.. I do some extensive research on it and learn that 99% of the time it's the ECM. I called about 7 different shops around town and asked them and they said it's never the knock sensor, and that the ECM is just showing it's age. I even talked to Bryan(?) from this forum about it for a few minutes, and got the whole run down. I pulled my ECM out, removed it from the cage and pulled it form the rubber sleeve to see that the board has been potted in a black silicon/epoxy potting. (BUMMER!) I have ideas of putting it in a convection oven for a few hours and a low temp to see if I can soften the potting and try to pull the board without damaging anything (Extremely difficult in my experience with working with HID ballasts that are also potted.)

Its just so crazy that the issue is so common and the life expectancy of the ECM is so pronounced to be around 10-12 years. Don't get me wrong, that's a long time especially for a ski... But this is a Honda. There's still fuel injected 89' cars driving around with no issues.

But let's think about this... Code 25 is suppose to be the knock sensor when in reality it's a component on the board failing, whether it's a noise filtering capacitor dying out due to heat that is triggering a false positive on the knock sensor, or something similar. It's easy enough to follow the knock sensor wires to pin -# and -# to try and find where they go. I was thinking about sending Honda and Keihin (Yeah right) an email asking for a board schematic and any guesses as to what the issue may be, because if it's a resistor / capacitor - that is a super cheap fix if the board can be properly removed from the potting.

My real question is what were you doing when you first received code 25? I've also read that there may be other codes showing up as well which may make this a way more complicated situation than just the traces of the knock sensor circuit. It's just so expensive to buy a new ECM ($800) knowing it's got a known death certificate. (Obviously everything fails eventually, but this is a little strange.)

For example, if I had access to the board and new exactly which component was failing, it would take about 20 minutes from start to finish to fix it and have it back in the ski. I would charge about $190 for repairing it which is a STEAL compared to $800 which is just going to fail again.

Another thing that I noticed was that inside my ECM's 2 connectors, there was some moisture around the pins sitting on the orange rubber gasket. Has anyone seen that before? I cleaned it up and put it back in the ski to test on the hose and didn't get a code for the 5 minutes it was idling.. But that doesn't mean much.

Re: Attempting to solve Code 25.

Even if you could de-pot the board, it's probably a 8+ layer board, so the chances of tracing the connector pin to a component that might have failed is low.

I'd think that it might be easier to remove all the discrete parts from the board and test them. Take notice of the failed or marginal ones. Then do the same with 2-3 more ECM's and see if theres a pattern of the failed/marginal components. Might get lucky that way.

Isn't there a chemical made specifically for removing potting materials?

Re: Attempting to solve Code 25.

Originally Posted by west_coaster

Even if you could de-pot the board, it's probably a 8+ layer board, so the chances of tracing the connector pin to a component that might have failed is low.

I'd think that it might be easier to remove all the discrete parts from the board and test them. Take notice of the failed or marginal ones. Then do the same with 2-3 more ECM's and see if theres a pattern of the failed/marginal components. Might get lucky that way.

Isn't there a chemical made specifically for removing potting materials?

Yeah the layer count is surely high. I agree that tracing it back would be impossible without a schematic. They do make dissolving agents based on what kind of potting it is, but in my experience it only makes the job slightly easier. I hardly ever deal with potted pcb's though. But yes It would be awesome if this had a repeating pattern and could be solved.

Re: Attempting to solve Code 25.

If you have one ski and it goes bad. I mean, when it goes bad. It's a wise allocation of resources to just by a new one. But if someone put all the time in to figure this out, that would be awesome. Please try.

Re: Attempting to solve Code 25.

Originally Posted by Lej

it would take about 20 minutes from start to finish to fix it and have it back in the ski. I would charge about $190 for repairing it which is a STEAL compared to $800 which is just going to fail again.

Wow, what's the name of your computer business?

$190 for less than 20 minutes work. Avoid that place!

The price of the repair should be based on T&M not a percentage of the purchase price.

Re: Attempting to solve Code 25.

Originally Posted by pucoa1

If you have one ski and it goes bad. I mean, when it goes bad. It's a wise allocation of resources to just by a new one. But if someone put all the time in to figure this out, that would be awesome. Please try.

I agree! I just like having the peace of mind knowing it's not going to fail in the same way it always has. There's obviously an issue with it.

Re: Attempting to solve Code 25.

Also, are there still options to just go with a standalone? (I read that thread about megasquirt/microsquirt) If I'm going to pay $800 for a ECM, It'd be cool to put that money towards one that I can tune if I decide to upgrade later on... and have the peace of mind knowing that it's not SUPPOSE to fail.

Side note, any idea where this goes? I found it down below the turbo while doing the "30 minutes could save you thousands" stuff. I'm trying to look at diagrams but I haven't found it yet.

Re: Attempting to solve Code 25.

Probably a little harsher than I intended sorry. I understand the process I just dont agree with it.
As a system engineer myself and a former electronics engineering supervisor I have seen it done plenty of times.

However, very best of luck fault finding and fixing it.

I started disolving my way into a CDI but value for time spent wasn't worth it.