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I've read that thread many times. This one was created more with the intent of figuring out why the "stereotype otaku" keeps getting created and blamed for everything bad, and what can be done to stop it, and as this thread's showing right now, it's not as bad as it used to be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aohige

I post and lurk both Animesuki and 2ch, and I can guarantee you one thing: no, you don't want to interact with 2ch, especially the types in VIP and News Sokuhou.

VIPPERS are closer to /b/ population, and much of anime board closer to rest of the 4chan.
Highly immature, extremely racially offensive, and chock full of trolls up to the neck.
Heck, 2ch itself has compared its posts to "graffitti found on public restroom walls".
(Yes, there's a lot of self-loathing going on in 2ch, which is one aspect I actually find entertaining )

However due to the massive population of 2ch, I find it resourceful and useful.
Some threads in the outskirts are comparatively civilized, while major outlets are full of trolling and spamming 24/7.

I repeat, no, you do not want to be interacting with them.

Hmm...this got me thinking...

Maybe the roots of this problem weren't really in anime fandoms, but the internet culture itself. 4ch and 2ch may have a large amount of anime fandom in them, but they are probably ultimately a product of the "internet" rather than of the whole anime fandom thingy. I'm not sure though, does this "stereotype blaming" exists in other hobbies when brought to the internets?

Edit: I think I can at least say that this is indeed happened/ing in the gaming world where old-timers are blaming newer, more casual fans for the "dumbing down" of games.

While this thread has largely been focusing on the "otaku" part of my opening statement, the "fujoshi" part was brought up for a reason - I've always been interested in fan culture surrounding a series, seeing what the fans latch onto and make their own. Sure, none of it is "official", but it can often enhance enjoyment of a series. It's responsible for one of the biggest emotional reactions I had to a series, and is fun to watch evolve from week to week for an ongoing series. While I would still be interested in, say, Smile Precure, I get so much more out of it with the pixiv community's interpretation of Yayoi as a toku fan. Or to use an example with a slightly bigger audience, the "perverted Homura" stuff from Madoka Magica. Nowhere in the source material, but still an important part of fan culture.

So that's what makes the rejection of the fujoshi fan culture (and perhaps female anime fans in general? There are many at this forum, but it ties into something larger) to be confusing. Though an anime fan's reactions to a female character can vary wildly, there is on some level a desire to understand what exactly makes a girl's mind tick. To shove any group of female fans, no matter what their tastes are, off to the side seems like it won't solve the problem, but in fact make the divide larger. There has to be some common ground that can be found here.

While this thread has largely been focusing on the "otaku" part of my opening statement, the "fujoshi" part was brought up for a reason - I've always been interested in fan culture surrounding a series, seeing what the fans latch onto and make their own. Sure, none of it is "official", but it can often enhance enjoyment of a series. It's responsible for one of the biggest emotional reactions I had to a series, and is fun to watch evolve from week to week for an ongoing series. While I would still be interested in, say, Smile Precure, I get so much more out of it with the pixiv community's interpretation of Yayoi as a toku fan. Or to use an example with a slightly bigger audience, the "perverted Homura" stuff from Madoka Magica. Nowhere in the source material, but still an important part of fan culture.

So that's what makes the rejection of the fujoshi fan culture (and perhaps female anime fans in general? There are many at this forum, but it ties into something larger) to be confusing. Though an anime fan's reactions to a female character can vary wildly, there is on some level a desire to understand what exactly makes a girl's mind tick. To shove any group of female fans, no matter what their tastes are, off to the side seems like it won't solve the problem, but in fact make the divide larger. There has to be some common ground that can be found here.

Most male anime fans just don't like yaoi, for reasons that, frankly, should be obvious. Yaoi is basically the opposite of a "turn on" to most male anime fans.

Now, I think that male anime fans sometimes overreact here (some of the reactions I've seen to both No. 6 and K are a bit over the top), but again, it's just not reasonable to expect people to embrace content (fanmade or otherwise) that's a turn off to them. This is especially true when you're dealing with entertainment, of all things.

So there's always going to be some degree of division between fujoshis and most male anime fans.

That being said, I've had some good anime-based conversations with fujoshis and I think it's important for male anime fans to realize that fujoshis are basically just the female mirror image of male yuri fans. So just as yuri fans can appreciate the many non-yuri aspects of anime, so to can fujoshis appreciate the many non-yaoi aspects of anime. There's no need to treat fujoshis as some weird and mysterious "other", in other words.

There's no need to treat fujoshis as some weird and mysterious "other", in other words.

That's precisely the point I was getting at. No fan needs to be othered, no matter what their interests are. Even if they can't see eye to eye, trying to put up a kind of "No Girls Allowed" barrier isn't going to benefit anyone.

That being said, I've had some good anime-based conversations with fujoshis and I think it's important for male anime fans to realize that fujoshis are basically just the female mirror image of male yuri fans. So just as yuri fans can appreciate the many non-yuri aspects of anime, so to can fujoshis appreciate the many non-yaoi aspects of anime. There's no need to treat fujoshis as some weird and mysterious "other", in other words.

Yes, but there's a lot more Yaoi and Slash fiction than there is Yuri.

And Yuri doesn't tend to be so openly erotic either. I think saying the two are gender flipped equivalents is false.

So you are comparing an official series to fanfiction/fan art? I think that's a bit unfair don't you?

I am not a fujoshi/yaoi fan but I am pretty sure there is a lot of different types of series out there.

Neither of those are fanfiction. They both ran in manga magazines, and were then adapted into anime. How am I being unfair?

Both are considered some of the best in their respective genre (at least according to baka-updates), you're the one being unfair by calling one of them (I don't know which) fanfiction. I watched both and didn't consider them bad, but they are not to my taste. But Yaoi is the more openly erotic genre. Yuri often shrouds itself with all kinds of annoying saccharine "forbidden love" stuff. Yaoi just skips straight to the, uh, main event.

Neither of those are fanfiction. They both ran in manga magazines, and were then adapted into anime. How am I being unfair?

Both are considered some of the best in their respective genre (at least according to baka-updates), you're the one being unfair by calling one of them (I don't know which) fanfiction. I watched both and didn't consider them bad, but they are not to my taste. But Yaoi is the more openly erotic genre. Yuri often shrouds itself with all kinds of annoying saccharine "forbidden love" stuff. Yaoi just skips straight to the, uh, main event.

My apologies I thought you were comparing 2 official Yuri series to the fanfiction/fanart/doujin market that is out there. I didn't read carefully & didn't see Junjou Romantica (which is a Yaoi series). Well I am only vaguely familiar with the two titles you listed, I know of them but never watched/read them myself.

But I still think you are being unfair in your comparison. I am only vaguely familiar with the Yuri/Yaoi genre but even I know there are Yaoi series that aren't about the characters having sex. In fact from my understanding whether it's smut or just romance it's still under the umbrella term Yaoi in Japan. So there is definitely "innocent love" in Yaoi too.

That's precisely the point I was getting at. No fan needs to be othered, no matter what their interests are. Even if they can't see eye to eye, trying to put up a kind of "No Girls Allowed" barrier isn't going to benefit anyone.

So basically, you want people to wise up and be more open-minded (probably be less stupid as well...). I understand the feeling really well, but I think this is a lost cause, however noble. Especially on the internets

And here I thought I was the only closet Gangan fanboi around. Always liked their published manga, preferred their shounen style to Jump, Sunday, and co. They're more, I don't know, cross-gender? Androgynous? The retards reading their manga online in English tend to complain "this is shoujo!" with Gangan series, so yeah.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Midonin

So that's what makes the rejection of the fujoshi fan culture (and perhaps female anime fans in general? There are many at this forum, but it ties into something larger) to be confusing. Though an anime fan's reactions to a female character can vary wildly, there is on some level a desire to understand what exactly makes a girl's mind tick. To shove any group of female fans, no matter what their tastes are, off to the side seems like it won't solve the problem, but in fact make the divide larger. There has to be some common ground that can be found here.

I have to agree, fujoshi gets unfair flak in this male-dominated forum. I don't think they care though, the Yaoi community online is big and confident, and it's not like they're the butt of the Internet (that honor goes to the furries). They don't have to be here to listen to the male fanboys complain. :/

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

But I still think you are being unfair in your comparison. I am only vaguely familiar with the Yuri/Yaoi genre but even I know there are Yaoi series that aren't about the characters having sex.

It's not like Don is saying there's only smut BL out there though, he's just complaining yuri manga doesn't get the deed done often enough (there's smut yuri out there, but not nearly to the same quantity), and as for yuri anime...lol, of what few there are, half of them pretend they're not even yuri.

So the difference in *focus* is indeed there. Aside from the vast quantities of yaoi porn, something like Loveless is pretty plot-heavy, but it doesn't shy away from the "stuff." I've read some pretty good BL series that focus on romance and relationship, and they rarely avoid "contact."

But I still think you are being unfair in your comparison. I am only vaguely familiar with the Yuri/Yaoi genre but even I know there are Yaoi series that aren't about the characters having sex. In fact from my understanding whether it's smut or just romance it's still under the umbrella term Yaoi in Japan. So there is definitely "innocent love" in Yaoi too.

If you want a good understanding of the two genres, you can't replace just watching some. I'd put aside 40 minutes of your time and just watch the first episode of the two series I suggested. It will give you the gist of what makes the genres different.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irenicus

I have to agree, fujoshi gets unfair flak in this male-dominated forum. I don't think they care though, the Yaoi community online is big and confident, and it's not like they're the butt of the Internet (that honor goes to the furries). They don't have to be here to listen to the male fanboys complain. :/

I don't know, defending Yaoi is like defending the indefensible. I don't even think Fujoshi really care to defend themselves either. They know what they're reading is smut. All power to them I guess.

Quote:

It's not like Don is saying there's only smut BL out there though, he's just complaining yuri manga doesn't get the deed done often enough (there's smut yuri out there, but not nearly to the same quantity), and as for yuri anime...lol, of what few there are, half of them pretend they're not even yuri.

So the difference in *focus* is indeed there. Aside from the vast quantities of yaoi porn, something like Loveless is pretty plot-heavy, but it doesn't shy away from the "stuff." I've read some pretty good BL series that focus on romance and relationship, and they rarely avoid "contact."

I think a key thing is that the two genres evolved differently. Yaoi is basically Shoujo Smut with the girl taken out and replaced with an uke. Similar conventions apply. Smut is a very erotic genre, and so likewise is Yaoi. (the non-erotic side is Shonen-ai).

On the flip side, Yuri does not really stem from any shonen genre in the same way. It's not simply shonen romance with one woman replaced. It's a distinct genre that tends to focus on forbidden love and romantic passion. It's not really erotic in the way Yaoi is. Usually the relationship is Sempai/Kohai, with young chirpy freshman and her mature, serene "Onee-Sama". Frankly, I find it melodramatic and dull. As Irenicus said, half of the anime pretend they're not even Yuri...

There is Yuri Hentai, but it's not really like normal Yuri in that it's just Sex Sex Sex. Whereas Yaoi Hentai is a lot like Yaoi in that the same structure is used, except what is simply alluded to in "normal" Yaoi is depicted hardcore in hentai Yaoi.

And another important distinction is popularity. Yuri is not really that popular, whereas Yaoi is ubiquitous among the Fujoshis (if they're not into Yaoi, they're not really Fujoshis). To give an idea of the difference, Baka-updates Manga has 11056 series tagged as "Yaoi". Yuri? 1146!

But from what I've seen neither yaoi & Yuri seem to have a strong presence in anime (maybe there are a few more yaoi titles). They seem to have a stronger presence in manga.

Is there no manga where the Yuri is explicit? I would be really surprised by that.

On another note from my understanding Yuri also started out as a Shoujo genre, I am not really sure if that's still the case or not though.

But anyways I think we can compare fujoshi to Yuri fans, at least among the Western fandom. Because I see the same people saying oh no BL, yay Yuri. In that sense I don't really see what the difference is, even if the genres are different, the fans don't seem different to me. And fangirling/fanboying Yuri & Yaoi is certainly not exclusive to actual Yaoi/Yuri series. Maybe there is bit more fan art/fic on the BL side but again I think you just have more women writing fic/drawing art in general.

So fujoshi "squee" at their BL pairings, while moe fans like me squee at all sorts of other stuff, what's the difference? What do you feel (well, maybe you don't; I don't know if you're a moe fan like me or not) when you have to defend squeeing over moe because of some "serious mecha/sci-fi anime fan" wet paper bags insulting us and our soft spots? It's precisely what Midonin is creating this thread to argue against (well partly). Like, dudes, let it go.

And by the way Bunny x Tiger is totally squee. XD

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

Is there no manga where the Yuri is explicit? I would be really surprised by that.

...

On another note from my understanding Yuri also started out as a Shoujo genre, I am not really sure if that's still the case or not though.

There is some, naturally; and yes it did start that way.

Despite the perception otherwise in the West yuri fans in Japan are mixed gender, even largely women at times (depending on magazine demographic targets). Girl on girl porn, yup that's a male thing.

So fujoshi "squee" at their BL pairings, while moe fans like me squee at all sorts of other stuff, what's the difference? What do you feel (well, maybe you don't; I don't know if you're a moe fan like me or not) when you have to defend squeeing over moe because of some "serious mecha/sci-fi anime fan" wet paper bags insulting us and our soft spots? It's precisely what Midonin is creating this thread to argue against (well partly). Like, dudes, let it go.

You guys are all perverts.

Now I'm going to stare wistfully at my VF-25 Messiah. It has such big... missile bays.

If you want a good understanding of the two genres, you can't replace just watching some. I'd put aside 40 minutes of your time and just watch the first episode of the two series I suggested. It will give you the gist of what makes the genres different.

I don't know, defending Yaoi is like defending the indefensible. I don't even think Fujoshi really care to defend themselves either. They know what they're reading is smut. All power to them I guess.

I think a key thing is that the two genres evolved differently. Yaoi is basically Shoujo Smut with the girl taken out and replaced with an uke. Similar conventions apply. Smut is a very erotic genre, and so likewise is Yaoi. (the non-erotic side is Shonen-ai).

On the flip side, Yuri does not really stem from any shonen genre in the same way. It's not simply shonen romance with one woman replaced. It's a distinct genre that tends to focus on forbidden love and romantic passion. It's not really erotic in the way Yaoi is. Usually the relationship is Sempai/Kohai, with young chirpy freshman and her mature, serene "Onee-Sama". Frankly, I find it melodramatic and dull. As Irenicus said, half of the anime pretend they're not even Yuri...

There is Yuri Hentai, but it's not really like normal Yuri in that it's just Sex Sex Sex. Whereas Yaoi Hentai is a lot like Yaoi in that the same structure is used, except what is simply alluded to in "normal" Yaoi is depicted hardcore in hentai Yaoi.

And another important distinction is popularity. Yuri is not really that popular, whereas Yaoi is ubiquitous among the Fujoshis (if they're not into Yaoi, they're not really Fujoshis). To give an idea of the difference, Baka-updates Manga has 11056 series tagged as "Yaoi". Yuri? 1146!

That's right folks, there's ten times more Yaoi then Yuri.

So as I said, the two really aren't equivalent.

That's the problem...why must it even be defended?

You like what I like, I like what I like...if sometimes those likes overlap all the better.

The way all those people get instantly blasted for their likings is....stupid? After all, it's not like they shove it in your faces unlike say....K-On......

Hell if you interact more with them there's much in common interest-wise I usually find...