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Re: Kabuto vs Jiraiya and Minato

Originally Posted by xXan

Like Naruto was aware of the Pein that was just resurected? When the plot needs people to don't sense then they don't sense.
How about Naruto detecting the ENTIRE BATTLEFIELD with people and enemies he NEVER got to see again by just exiting the cave but he could not sense Nagato and Konan that where just outside Konoha and he had to stab himself... Seriously?

Also Naruto showed those senses in his fight with Pein only when traking him down. Aside from that... Not that much...
Then yes Naruto did say he can feel the entire Konoha now that he has senjutsu chakra in him and made it look like that is a normal ability shared by all. Even Ma/Pa should have it.. Hell Ma senses Pein when they got there in all that dust. Then of coruse not even Ma/Pa could sense the 3 sneaking Pein...

Well what else could it be? Are you telling me the elder frogs themselfs don't have special senses?
Seriously they never showed it as they did not really need to show it. Aside from detecting where Nagato is Naruto did NOT display any SM senses in his fight with Pein... If not for that we would asume (just like with JMan) that he does not have it (aside from looking for Kakashi something that JMan would obviously have no need to do in his fight with Pein)....

Senjutsu chakra works by activating your body, all of it, senses including.

Read what Naruto states here:http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/431/3
Now that he has naure energy... Do you see him stating how he is the only one who can do that? That Ma, Pa, JMan could not do it or how he was a special case? I men ANYTHING?

No he just trows that line like its a NORMAL ability for all after they got senjutsu chakra.

Later with Kabuto when dodging that arrow he AGAIN states it generaly like its nature working with him...

I can understand JMan perhaps not having it on the same level but not having it like at all? Now that is absurd. If Naruto showes the ability to kill Pein with a Rasengan then JMan can do the same. Its just about same thing with SM.

Not really the same. Failing to detect a single Path that could have been revived a moment before is not the same as not sensing anyone. And the range situation is explained along with his ability to go into Sage Mode, having increase as he gained more experience.

Naruto also showed it via avoiding/countering the Path's assault. I'm sure the toads, on account of them being toads, have different senses then humans. Naruto, Jiraiya, and Kabuto all have different skills via Sage Mode. And being that chakra sensing isn't inheriant to people, how could such an ability to enhanced if it's not there? Anyway, the point remains that whereas both Naruto and Kabuto have shown the ability to avoid most attacks against them, including surprise attacks. They at least showed the ability to detect attacks. We got none of that with Jiraiya. Not one single example of any sort of sensory skill. In fact, seeing as he required Ma and Pa to aid him in that department, that seems like another indicator that he doesn't have it.

Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood

Ma has that... Slimy thing she used to sense the chameleon, Jiraiya has the barrier that detected every movement.

Considering how fast Kyuubi can form a Bijuudama and that Yondaime traveled an entire village worth of distance in some seconds, I believe its a shunshin. Also considering how hard-pressed he was on time, with Hiruzen having a Bijuudama on his face

But that's not chakra sensory, but scent sensory, which wouldn't have the same situational use in addition to what was pointed out before. Same with the barrier. They won't tell where the real Kabuto is hiding if he uses the bone forest or turns into snakes.

We saw both Orochimaru and Kirabi counter a recently formed Bijuu Blast with ease. The reason I question it being shunshin is the sheer fact that it would have meant that Minato ran all that way, climbed over the Kyuubi, jumped in the air, and then proceed to summon Gamabunta. Makes no sense to go through all that work when simply touching the Kyuubi was his goal.

Re: Kabuto vs Jiraiya and Minato

@Rikudou King

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Not really the same. Failing to detect a single Path that could have been revived a moment before is not the same as not sensing anyone

No its exacly the same, Naruto had an extra chaka signal poping out of nowhere... The the point he made visual contact he did not know shit. Naruto failing to sense a new chakra signal even for a smaller time interval is the same damn thing.

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And the range situation is explained along with his ability to go into Sage Mode, having increase as he gained more experience.

There is no line where it is explained he increased his chakra sensing distance. Also increased from Konoha to a continent (exageration)? Be serious.

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Naruto also showed it via avoiding/countering the Path's assault

Show me 1 instance where Naruto used SM sensing to avoid or whatever the path's assault.

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I'm sure the toads, on account of them being toads, have different senses then humans.

Human's don't have natural chakra detection and Naruto more then anybody. He is a MORON in that area... Frogs do have some extra senses but that has nothing to do with sensing chakra.

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Naruto, Jiraiya, and Kabuto all have different skills via Sage Mode.

No they DON'T. They have diferent skills in ANY MODE and they use those skill augmented with SM... They get NO diferent SM ONLY jutsus. They do get skills that can only be used in SM, like Naruto can trow the FRS because he has greater chakra control or whatever but they get NO special and only SM jutsus. Yes they have Sage Art in front or whatever but its just jutsus that they use in SM. They don't get a special jutsu like Shinigami get with bankai or shikai.

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And being that chakra sensing isn't inheriant to people, how could such an ability to enhanced if it's not there?

Oh yes, Naruto has that right? If Naruto can do that after getting SM then my pet hamster can do it.

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Anyway, the point remains that whereas both Naruto and Kabuto have shown the ability to avoid most attacks against them, including surprise attacks. They at least showed the ability to detect attacks. We got none of that with Jiraiya. Not one single example of any sort of sensory skill. In fact, seeing as he required Ma and Pa to aid him in that department, that seems like another indicator that he doesn't have it.

Because Naruto and Kabuto showed the ability later.
Take Naruto and ONLY his fight with Pein (only after the fight started). Now remove the instance where he tracked down Pein with the pipe... Something that JMan would not know how to do... Now show me Naruto using SM senses. JMan did NOT have the chanse to use it, that is it. Even Kabuto showed what? 1 time dodging the arrow?
The only event would be inside the frog's mouth when it was dark but that can be argued diferent ways to. There is no event where clear chakra sensing was used, not even one. Naruto just had the oportunity to fight more and have a lot of chanses to show it.

Re: Kabuto vs Jiraiya and Minato

Originally Posted by Rikudou King

But that's not chakra sensory, but scent sensory, which wouldn't have the same situational use in addition to what was pointed out before. Same with the barrier. They won't tell where the real Kabuto is hiding if he uses the bone forest or turns into snakes.

Do we know?
I don't think that slimy... Thingy traced Pein by scent, since its not like toads are known for their sense of scent.
Also Ma's saying "if its a living being", meaning probably that she traced Pein thanks to Nature energy

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We saw both Orochimaru and Kirabi counter a recently formed Bijuu Blast with ease. The reason I question it being shunshin is the sheer fact that it would have meant that Minato ran all that way, climbed over the Kyuubi, jumped in the air, and then proceed to summon Gamabunta. Makes no sense to go through all that work when simply touching the Kyuubi was his goal.

No, simply he shunshined towards Kyuubi and summoned Gamabunta mid-air.
It makes sense since a village was between them and he had to hurry, knowing how fast Kyuubi ( and not a 4 tailed transformed Naruto ) can make a Bijuudama.
Infact he needed Gamabunta to stall those seconds he needed to gather his chakra and teleport both Kyuubi and the blast away

Re: Kabuto vs Jiraiya and Minato

Naruto has to concentrate to use his ability to sense. When he sensed the fighting during the war, he was still. when he was trying to sense Kakashi, he was also still. Looks like Naruto can't passively use the ability, he has to concentrate or at least not move.

Re: Kabuto vs Jiraiya and Minato

Originally Posted by xXan

No its exacly the same, Naruto had an extra chaka signal poping out of nowhere... The the point he made visual contact he did not know shit. Naruto failing to sense a new chakra signal even for a smaller time interval is the same damn thing.

Hungry Path was recently revived, at most a few moments beforehand but more likely right at that moment before. Naruto meanwhile was preoccupied with forming the FRS. That's a considerably different situation then not noticing three Paths after standing around for some time.

Originally Posted by xXan

There is no line where it is explained he increased his chakra sensing distance. Also increased from Konoha to a continent (exageration)? Be serious.

If one ability of it, speed of going within it, increases, why would not the rest of his abilities within it?

Originally Posted by xXan

Show me 1 instance where Naruto used SM sensing to avoid or whatever the path's assault.

That whole fight. The only time Naruto got "hit" was via Deva Path's ability. he avoided the blows from all the other Paths.

Originally Posted by xXan

Human's don't have natural chakra detection and Naruto more then anybody. He is a MORON in that area... Frogs do have some extra senses but that has nothing to do with sensing chakra.

Sure they do, within the Narutoverse. We've seen not only skilled chakra sensors, but even regular ninjas capable of noticing unique effects chakra-wise.

Originally Posted by xXan

No they DON'T. They have diferent skills in ANY MODE and they use those skill augmented with SM... They get NO diferent SM ONLY jutsus. They do get skills that can only be used in SM, like Naruto can trow the FRS because he has greater chakra control or whatever but they get NO special and only SM jutsus. Yes they have Sage Art in front or whatever but its just jutsus that they use in SM. They don't get a special jutsu like Shinigami get with bankai or shikai.

Skills =/= techniques. In addition to what we have been discussing, Naruto possesses the ability to go into Sage Mode within a moment on his own. Jiraiya required summoning Ma and Pa to activate it. So we've seen their skills are different. And of course Kabuto has a bunch of different things due to having a different patron.

Originally Posted by xXan

Oh yes, Naruto has that right? If Naruto can do that after getting SM then my pet hamster can do it.

Even regular people like Kakashi and Tsunade have shown it.

Originally Posted by xXan

Because Naruto and Kabuto showed the ability later.
Take Naruto and ONLY his fight with Pein (only after the fight started). Now remove the instance where he tracked down Pein with the pipe... Something that JMan would not know how to do... Now show me Naruto using SM senses. JMan did NOT have the chanse to use it, that is it. Even Kabuto showed what? 1 time dodging the arrow?
The only event would be inside the frog's mouth when it was dark but that can be argued diferent ways to. There is no event where clear chakra sensing was used, not even one. Naruto just had the oportunity to fight more and have a lot of chanses to show it.

Not have the chance? Simply being attacked would have given him the chance to use it and avoid said attacks. The point is that while both Naruto and Kabuto have been shown avoiding/countering the majority of their opponents attacks, Jiraiya did not. The sensory should have given him forewarning and the advantage in close-combat.

Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood

Do we know?
I don't think that slimy... Thingy traced Pein by scent, since its not like toads are known for their sense of scent.
Also Ma's saying "if its a living being", meaning probably that she traced Pein thanks to Nature energy

It sniffed at the air. Merely sensing natural energy wouldn't require that. Nor would it require a "living being", since natural energy is in everything, living and nonliving.

Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood

No, simply he shunshined towards Kyuubi and summoned Gamabunta mid-air.
It makes sense since a village was between them and he had to hurry, knowing how fast Kyuubi ( and not a 4 tailed transformed Naruto ) can make a Bijuudama.
Infact he needed Gamabunta to stall those seconds he needed to gather his chakra and teleport both Kyuubi and the blast away

That would still involve running through the village. Shunshin is merely running unnaturally faster then normal. Using it wouldn't enable him to fly or anything.

Same happen when Naruto fought the Kyuubi, and the Hachibi was capable of intercepting too. The number of tails shouldn't have an effect upon this either. Point remains, it's not mind-blowing fast that it can't be reacted against.

Re: Kabuto vs Jiraiya and Minato

It sniffed at the air. Merely sensing natural energy wouldn't require that. Nor would it require a "living being", since natural energy is in everything, living and nonliving.

It doesn't explain her comment about living being then, a dead body has a scent just like a living one.
Hell, it probably has a stronger scent with the body decaying and such

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That would still involve running through the village. Shunshin is merely running unnaturally faster then normal. Using it wouldn't enable him to fly or anything.

Same happen when Naruto fought the Kyuubi, and the Hachibi was capable of intercepting too. The number of tails shouldn't have an effect upon this either. Point remains, it's not mind-blowing fast that it can't be reacted against.

Point is, he had, again, an entire village between himself and Kyuubi, and while Bijuudama isn't mind-blowing fast, it still takes what, 4-5 seconds to charge, at worst?
Traveling an entire village in 4-5 seconds still require shunshin imo, and since he was hard-pressed for time he summoned Gamabunta mid-shunshin.
Don't forget also that the Kyuubi began charging the Bijuudama the moment Yondaime appeared, or even before

Re: Kabuto vs Jiraiya and Minato

It doesn't explain her comment about living being then, a dead body has a scent just like a living one.
Hell, it probably has a stronger scent with the body decaying and such

Perhaps it sensed the chameleon's heat then. That would require a living target.

Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood

Point is, he had, again, an entire village between himself and Kyuubi, and while Bijuudama isn't mind-blowing fast, it still takes what, 4-5 seconds to charge, at worst?
Traveling an entire village in 4-5 seconds still require shunshin imo, and since he was hard-pressed for time he summoned Gamabunta mid-shunshin.
Don't forget also that the Kyuubi began charging the Bijuudama the moment Yondaime appeared, or even before

Yes, but we're still talking about him running to the Kyuubi and then proceeding to jump into the air over it, instead of just dealing with it right then and there. And as far as we've seen, there's no way to delay the actions of a summoning for a set amount of time. Minato would have to know specifically when he would arrive and how long before that to start preforming the handsigns in order not to summon Gamabunta before he had arrived.

Hiraishin makes more sense, considering we know for a fact that he had tags set up all around and it would explain why he ended up where he did. Hiraishin behind from the trees and then jump over it.

Re: Kabuto vs Jiraiya and Minato

Originally Posted by Rikudou King

Yes, but we're still talking about him running to the Kyuubi and then proceeding to jump into the air over it, instead of just dealing with it right then and there. And as far as we've seen, there's no way to delay the actions of a summoning for a set amount of time. Minato would have to know specifically when he would arrive and how long before that to start preforming the handsigns in order not to summon Gamabunta before he had arrived.

Hiraishin makes more sense, considering we know for a fact that he had tags set up all around and it would explain why he ended up where he did. Hiraishin behind from the trees and then jump over it.

How could he deal with Kyuubi right there if there was a village between them and Kyuubi was charging a Bijuudama ?

And Hiraishin isn't likely, since Yondaime clearly was on mid-air before summoning Bunta, as evidenced by him being on top of the toad ( if he used Toad Cart Destroyer like Naruto did, he would be on the ground while Gama would be on top of Kyuubi )

Re: Kabuto vs Jiraiya and Minato

Teleporting to the woods behind, then going from there, just like he did when he saved Kushina. Makes more sense then running through the entire village.

When he saved Kushina, he Hiraishin'ed to her since the seal was ingraved in her own, he didn't teleport in woods, and it would be pretty ridiculous to claim he tagged every leaf of every tree.

See it like this:a village was separating Yondaime and Kyuubi while the latter was forming a Bijuudama.
We know from experience a Bijuudama takes what, 4-5 seconds to form ( I'm being generous, extremely so ), meaning Yondaime had to travel an entire village in 2-3 seconds, considering he halted Kyuubi mid-charging.
He has 3 options:
-Hiraishin, borderline since Kyuubi was on a barren wasteland and Yondaime appeared mid-air, when he summoned Gama.
Without counting the fact that it isn't likely Yondaime tagged every rock in Konoha, it would mean Hiraishin has a huge radius, and Yondaime can appear miles apart his seal, while the best he's showed is barely a meter.
-Normal speed, impossible.
While Yondaime is fast, he can't move that fast in such a short time span, hell I doubt even the Gaikage can.
-Shunshin, the most likely, considering its the only jutsu he knows that allows him to move at high speed.

Even then, the original point was that one can't use a jutsu while using another, which got disproved:
either if it was Hiraishin or Shunshin Yondaime used it while using Kuchiyose, meaning he effectively used 2 jutsu at the same time

Re: Kabuto vs Jiraiya and Minato

I meant, he Hiraishin to her and then proceeded to jump to the treetop. The Kyuubi wasn't on a wasteland, it was at the edge of the village in the woods, where it had been forced back. Not to mention it would explain also why he was facing towards them instead of away, which would have been the direction if he came through the village. Besides, shunshin is only a momentary boost, not a sustainable means of travel.

As for the main point, it really hasn't. As mentioned, unless he was capable of delaying the activation or timing it down to the right moment, he couldn't have preformed the summoning til he was in position and neither of those two would have allowed him to be in midair.

Re: Kabuto vs Jiraiya and Minato

I just look back and Kabuto Liquid jutsu *Need to be activated*. Its not permanent.

With Hirashin. Pretty sure Minato can land a hit before Kabuto can activate suigetsu jutsu.

Because we saw Itachi was able to damage kabuto physically and he did not turn into liquid.

Turning into liquid is also a bad Idea.

1.) Jiraiya can summon Large amount of Oil. a Tidal wave Oil..

Its like a Water Bottle vs Bucket of Oil. <- a water would not stand a chance being covered by a large amount of Oil.

Kabuto transforming back to his normal form would be covered by sticky oil and his internal would be cover as well.

Cant believe that no notice that Water vs Large Tidal wave Oil... Pretty bad Idea for Kabuto using Suigetsu abilities.
Wind can also push the sound genjutsu. We saw Temari did it and pretty sure Temari chakra into her weapon IS nowhere near Sage Chakra wind senjutsu.

Re: Kabuto vs Jiraiya and Minato

The horn was simple decoration. We know via Suigetsu and the Nidaime Mizukage that it's an automatic defense. And you would note that Kabuto negated any bodily damage.

Fukasaku is the one who possesses it, not Jiraiya or Minato as I said, right? And to push back the genjutsu, it would require them to remain stationary facing the technique, which would grant Kabuto the advantage of attacking them while their stuck defending. Not to mention that the sound genjutsu isn't Kabuto's only means of paralyzing the duo.

Even a little water vs more oil would have the two separated, and given the Goemon was shown mainly liquid, it would hardly be as if Kabuto has to face an actual inferno. And since Kabuto's abilities allow him to divide and merge back together, he can evade before risking any real damage.