Well The othe day I tryed this configuration in one torunament and I'll tell you how it was :(M!= rules)

[I]1st round 2-1 vs Blck with hymns duress sink ...

Well the first game he started with duress hymn and followed by 2 taRMOS but even this way just a single mystical with some moxen /lotus in play made me win easily with A.N with 7 lifes.
In 2nd game it was more with land destruction and discard, however this tiem was 2 LEDS with 2 burninn in hand and more stuff folled up by IGG from side which made me win .

2nd Round was with Mono Red burn :
2-0
I have to say that playing 1 A.N only in main is enourmusly reassuring and makes you taking a wider interval of number of decisions.
Just to say here that I won with A.N 11 lives in 1 and 8 in another damage taken from both games didn't exceeded 8

3rd Round Canadian 3sh9old :
1-2
The first game he drew 3Fows in hand !!!!! lol
but he did not put pressure in the battle of field any way I was using some duress/ orims package until I could resolve a burning - tendrils (burnin which he should have countered). In this game I cognize I should have wait 1 more turn but I espected also he couters 1 more spell ... 0-1
the second I cound resolve A.N before played after some dures /orims ([U]have to say that becaause of having 4 M.T just I have to do is sitting down and waiting for the 2nd/3rd land and next searching with tutor exactly the piezes I need --manaing,defensing,comboing for the winˇˇˇ)
and won.
the 3rd was strange I feel like I should have won If I were a great poker player , but I'm just a good programmer... because I had to evaluate if playing FoW -> didn't play FoW(thing I knwe) -> If innhand stifle or snare or fire-to-kill-me with 1 mana open . If I had chose the in hand stifle option I had won, knowing he was playing no FoW. 1-2

3rd Round 2-0
Landstill Easy just waiting to fill up with orims and pyros and duresses and win

Conclusions :
I just think that playing just 1 A.N is fine never needed more than 1 , and it makes us playing with much more options and with more damage accumulated.
The 4 mystical tutor, I haven't used the trick of mystical+LED becasue of M10 and neither needed , as well the ponder/ brainstorm - mystical trick haven't used , but I had it in mind as possible in different games .
The thing about M.Tutor is that sometimes when ytouhave played 2nd land and you have sculpted your hand with ponder brainstorm you just need the ritgh card and no more lands to play for example. and this job is just what m.tutor do makes win us exatly with the correct number of cards by functionality.
There were games I played like 2 duress 2 orims and next make the combo because of the conjunction of the great amount og generic tutors the deck has.

In 4 games in the tournament I have won in a different way than playing A.N.
The more I play burning the more I think why the hell ANT players don't play it.
The more I play 4 ponder 4 brainstorm the more conviced I 'm of playing 4 of all and even the 4 M.Tutor inclusion makes them better cards getting up our chances of winning.
Definatly not neccesity of IGG in main -> we play burning and mystical.
no need of playing chain of vapor -> we play burning and mystical.

Evolution :
I'm thinking of putting in 1 I.T instead 1 m:Tutor

Ideas , suggestions , onions?

Piceli89

07-19-2009, 08:30 AM

The main isue about a single Ad Nauseam is that it still is,despites the possibility of this deck to go of in several differente ways,the main bomb of the deck. it gives us the incredible faculty of having the "cast-1-card-and-win" button, in almost 60-65% of the times we manage to get it (of course escluding the possibilities of bad luck, sucky flips, and the times when you attempt an AdNauseam at 7 lives or so).
So why to play only 1, since with 1 you arguably expose yourself to the risk of having it discarded or, even worse, you may have to pitch it to mox in some cases (yes, it happens)? 2 is the correct number, proven by many tests. With 2 Nauseams, 1 Tendrils and 1 Igg, you'll never risk to lose too much life, since , at the worst of your luck, you can get 13 damages from all of them together (but hey, you need to be such a bad mislucker to get those 3 in a row).
To be honest, i can see your point of running only 1 AdNos in your deck, since the presence of 4 Mystical tutors to grab it. But 4 Mystical tutors are really controproductive, i play 2 in my list and sometimes when i draw both it's like to have lost 2 turns, since they are card disadvantage.
With 4, the %s of drawing 2 of them are skyrocketed, which means you're really slowing yourself down into "sculpting the perfect hand".
I think that, for this purpose, the cantrips are already sufficient; and if you want to opmitize them without spending too much turns, just add few fetchlands. Brainstorm with fetchlands is ridicolously good in this deck, it turns crap hands into blasts.
Also, perhaps I'd run 1 fetch instead of the 2nd Volcanic. Thsi allows you to grab R or B when one of them is needed. While we're pretty much always happy to see an Usea since the great qty of Black cards in this deck, a topdecked (or in initial hand) Volcanic island may not be well-wanted, since we only run 8 red spells (9 for those who, like me,are playing the single Pyroblast). I mean, after all this deck is black-based, so Volcanic should stay in 1-ofs. That single fetch may also provide the benefit of cheap shuffle effect for your cantrips,other than color-fixing.

My 2 thoughts.

Pelikanudo

07-19-2009, 09:36 AM

The main isue about a single Ad Nauseam is that it still is,despites the possibility of this deck to go of in several differente ways,the main bomb of the deck. it gives us the incredible faculty of having the "cast-1-card-and-win" button, in almost 60-65% of the times we manage to get it (of course escluding the possibilities of bad luck, sucky flips, and the times when you attempt an AdNauseam at 7 lives or so).
So why to play only 1, since with 1 you arguably expose yourself to the risk of having it discarded or, even worse, you may have to pitch it to mox in some cases (yes, it happens)? 2 is the correct number, proven by many tests. With 2 Nauseams, 1 Tendrils and 1 Igg, you'll never risk to lose too much life, since , at the worst of your luck, you can get 13 damages from all of them together (but hey, you need to be such a bad mislucker to get those 3 in a row).
To be honest, i can see your point of running only 1 AdNos in your deck, since the presence of 4 Mystical tutors to grab it. But 4 Mystical tutors are really controproductive, i play 2 in my list and sometimes when i draw both it's like to have lost 2 turns, since they are card disadvantage.
With 4, the %s of drawing 2 of them are skyrocketed, which means you're really slowing yourself down into "sculpting the perfect hand".
I think that, for this purpose, the cantrips are already sufficient; and if you want to opmitize them without spending too much turns, just add few fetchlands. Brainstorm with fetchlands is ridicolously good in this deck, it turns crap hands into blasts.
Also, perhaps I'd run 1 fetch instead of the 2nd Volcanic. Thsi allows you to grab R or B when one of them is needed. While we're pretty much always happy to see an Usea since the great qty of Black cards in this deck, a topdecked (or in initial hand) Volcanic island may not be well-wanted, since we only run 8 red spells (9 for those who, like me,are playing the single Pyroblast). I mean, after all this deck is black-based, so Volcanic should stay in 1-ofs. That single fetch may also provide the benefit of cheap shuffle effect for your cantrips,other than color-fixing.

My 2 thoughts.

Well I think I have found the difference , I do not contemplaqte bad or good luck I contemplate maths and statitistics because when you play A.N you have no more A.N except the casting 4 cost tendrils (which is exactly what you need ) you perfectly can cast A.N at 7 lifes and NOW you do not have to have BAD or GOOD luck becuase of revealing a 5 cost , however the BAD luck is now here revealing 2 card cost .
I'm sure in ANT decks I' ll play 2 A.N as minimum but , boys ˇ We have burning wish which is our really bomb.
Regarding to the fetch ... I do not find it sense :
you play 4 rituakl --> 4 ritual (red)
you play 3/4I.Tutor --> 4 B.Wish (red)
rest of the deck is Artifact , and blue .
Regarding to duress I mean is like orims so I think about that as random color card in general.

BreathWeapon

07-19-2009, 11:21 AM

You don't need 2 Ad Nauseam, you only want 2 Ad Nauseam to increase threat density if you want it at all. "What if" Ad Nauseam is discarded is a bad argument, because Infernal Tutor can still search for Burning Wish -> Empty the Warrens, Burning Wish -> Diminishing Returns or Burning Wish -> Ill Gotten Gains, so all it does is add +1 or +2 mana to your total costs when Thought Seize does discard Ad Nauseam once in a blue moon.

Edit: You guys should really be running 4 Duress and 3 Orim's Chant instead of 4 Orim's Chant and 4 Duress, having Duress on the play/draw first turn is so much more important than having Orim's Chant - considering the presence of Counterbalance.

As an aside, don't you guys think 1 Ill Gotten Gains, 2 Mystical Tutor and 1 Chain of Vapor make the deck incredibly clunky? I keep comparing it to my Tinder Wall list, and it mulls a lot of extra hands.

Having done some matches on MWS (ok,not the best play to test decks, but this reguards only a matter of cards-randomization..even if mws shuffler always sucks), I too have to admit I sometimes would like to play with a single Ad Nauseam. Flipping the second is always a hit in the balls, unfortunately. The point is that running two doesn't only increase the threat density as breathWeapon said, but it also helps in certain situations that may show up. One example? I had a perfect hand: Burning wish+7 mana between led and rites/rituals, and the singleton Ad Nauseam in hand. Now, if i had had two of them, i could have done wish-> infernal->ad nauseam. but in this way, i was stuck with an only alternative really useful to win immediately ( i couldn't etw because he had lots of creatures), which is Diminishing returns, but i don't want to throw my chances to win to luck that much ( at least with AdNauseam you draw a lots more).
To answer you, BreathWeapon, perhaps "having it discarded " is not a valid argumentation, but it still happens, and you should know Ad Nauseam is the most shortcut-to-victory bomb we can exploit. You're right when you say "if it gets discarded, then go tutor-chain or Diminishing ", but these ways to go off are way more mana intensive and usually require some LEDs in them too, and you know that the opponent usually plays too and puts on you some presure either by disruption (counters/discard), or mana denial. We're not always playing against Dwarfs.dec,unfortunately, which would allow us to sculpt a perfect hand: playing against blue aggro-control with counterbalance, you often have to push it as quick as you can, in a brutal way too, because it becomes a race in time. That's why i really like to have 2 Ad nauseams: because they not only increase the Bomb density, but because they require really few things to be thrown, unless the other storm-engines (1 rite of flame and 1 dark ritual is enough,and often you open with those 2 cards), and having 1 invalidated doesn't mean you 're completely shut off from the AN option.
But still, revealing the second to first still incredibly sucks. The only way to play 1 is , as said, to increase the quantity of Mysticals; but the deck at that point would perhaps become too clunky and slow (mystical has lost part of its charm since m10 fucking rules, that's a pity).

Bryant, have you tested the single Ad Nauseam configuration, with 3 Mysticals (or 4 ponder)? if yes, how was it? did you have issues or difficulties of any kind with a single AN?

tsabo_tavoc

07-19-2009, 04:15 PM

As an aside, don't you guys think 1 Ill Gotten Gains, 2 Mystical Tutor and 1 Chain of Vapor make the deck incredibly clunky? I keep comparing it to my Tinder Wall list, and it mulls a lot of extra hands.

I have tested the Tinder Wall approach and liked it before I realized Simian Spirit Guide>Tinder Wall in most circumstances. The mana cost of Tinder Wall requires an initial mana investment and slows the deck down (even if it costed R!). Hardly do I want to cast it, past my turn and turning opponent's dead cards into Wasteland. The main issue with SSG is paying 2 more life post AdN, which is relevant and the reason we play Duress over Thoughtseize. However, the explosiveness of SSG enables you to go off 1 turn earlier which may save more life and post AdN, SSG is still a superior mana source. By the way, I also tend to believe SSG>Cabal Ritual on the 6th mana acceleration slot.

BreathWeapon

07-19-2009, 07:49 PM

I agree Simian Spirit Guide > Tinder Wall, considering it's an initial mana source and a Daze counter, compared to a sub-par Rite of Flame and a pass the turn mana fixer + red Dark Ritual. But the CC difference is significant, and that CC difference is the reason I chose Tinder Wall. But maybe I'm wrong, and Simian Spirit Guide is superior to Tinder Wall despite the CC difference. If you're right, I'd trade Tinder Wall for Simian Spirit Guide in a second.

I guess I'm off to Gold Fish SSG vs Tinder Wall.

EDIT: Yeah, I like SSG way more than Tinder Wall, screw the extra damage.

@Piceli

What makes you think you need Mystical Tutor to play 1 Ad Nauseam? I've been playing 0 Mystical Tutor and 1 Ad Nauseam and it works perfectly well.

IMO, the fringe cases of Duress hitting Ad Nauseam or drawing Ad Nauseam in hand are rarer than flipping Ad Nauseam, you just have to learn to live with it when it does happen for the sake of efficiency.

Bryant Cook

07-21-2009, 09:54 PM

I made some changes to the deck tonight and took first in a random local. The initial changes look solid. They're nothing major, just minor tweaks. I'll let everyone know the changes after Eli's on Saturday. If you really want to know, PM me.

Raindown

07-21-2009, 09:57 PM

subscribed....guessing spirit guide is back:confused:

SuperBean

07-21-2009, 10:30 PM

There is now way Simian Spirit Guide is back, that card is so terrible with Ad Nauseam.

BreathWeapon

07-22-2009, 03:50 AM

There is now way Simian Spirit Guide is back, that card is so terrible with Ad Nauseam.

It's not that bad, cut the 2nd Ad Nauseam and the IGG and you're on par.

Volrath

07-22-2009, 04:40 AM

But why would you cut the IGG?, it's your only engine side from nauseam in the main.
I have already cut 1 naeseam so i could play an additional mana source (Rain of Filth) and it's working like a charm.
It makes hands with to many lands or topdecked lands more usefull, at worst it usually is an rite of flame for black.

I have played with SSG in ANT before with blasts main instead of chant, so i had a 3 color mana base, wich was very effecive against Counterbalance but that isn't played much here, so i dropped them.

GreenOne

07-22-2009, 04:47 AM

I have already cut 1 naeseam so i could play an additional mana source (Rain of Filth) and it's working like a charm.
It makes hands with to many lands or topdecked lands more usefull, at worst it usually is an rite of flame for black.
Rain of filth sucks in this deck: we play so little lands and Gemstones can also get destroyed by itself, reducing further Rain of Filth's power.
I'd play Cabal Ritual or Tinder Wall any day of the week before Rain of Filth.

Volrath

07-22-2009, 05:35 AM

Tinder wall sucks because it's green
C.Ritual is great but only as a 1 off, incase of challice @ 1 or some scenario like that, otherwise it's casting cost of 2 doens't help it much.

Rain has been working for me so far, and with 2 lands it already gives as much accel as C.Ritual does without ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh and could give you 1 other colored mana aswell instead of only BBB.

Piceli89

07-22-2009, 06:20 AM

The main problem i see with Rain Of Filth, and which was also pointed out in the Fetchland Tendrils topic, is that it is a "win now or die completely" card. In fact, you're arguably going to sac all your lands to it in order to maximize its efficacy, and what if the opponent manages to prevent you from going off that turn? You're left with 0 lands in play, and you're just going to lose. Moreover,i think that RoF is better exploitable in a deck with a higher land density (i'm thinking at least 15), since you'll be more likely to have at least 3 lands in play when going off ( and it's at this point that it can provide a ritual-like effect, with 2 lands is just a black rite of flame, with 1..well, i let you comment ). It would be a nice card if we'dable to win games at instant-speed like solidarity, since that card would be awesome against LD,espeically wasteland. But, since we go off at sorcery-speed, and the opponent is going to wasteland/Sinkhole your lands in his turn the 99% of the times..

And, most of all, the only presence of Gemstone Mine would prevent me to play that card all day. As GreenOne rightly adifrmed, at this point it's better to add another "less risky" mana source if you really need it, like a single Tinder Wall or (perhaps better) a single Cabal Ritual.

BreathWeapon

07-22-2009, 08:03 AM

Because IGG is reliant on Chant and LED, and I prefer not to play 3 card combos in Storm. It's only in rare situations I ever bother to cast it, and even in those rare situations there are alternatives that don't require a completely dead card MD.

GreenOne

07-22-2009, 08:34 AM

Because IGG is reliant on Chant and LED, and I prefer not to play 3 card combos in Storm.
Well, it require chants only against blue. It's a godsend against aggro, where your life total might drop with ease.

IGG is not entirely reliant on LED too, cause sometimes you have an all-acceleration and a tutor or 2 hand, and sometimes you can just use your card disadvantage machine (Mox, Mystical) and go hellbent the hard route.

emidln

07-22-2009, 10:15 AM

The main problem i see with Rain Of Filth, and which was also pointed out in the Fetchland Tendrils topic, is that it is a "win now or die completely" card.

I wasn't going to post on this, but twice? :rolleyes: Rain of Filth is good because it provides a huge mana infusion by itself while avoiding Spell Snare. Rain of Filth requires approximately one billion lands to be useful, as it's an unthresh'd Cabal Ritual on two lands and only better than Thresh'd Cabal Ritual on 5 lands. This is great for decks that run 16-18 lands, but terrible in TES. Going all in isn't an issue against control. This is the last accelerant you play, and you've either baited out the counters/resolved protection against control or you are going off on the last possible turn. Either way, you don't care if you have lands pass this turn because there will be no future turns. If you are going off against control with Rain of Filth (assuming you were playing a deck that had enough lands to make it good) when you don't have max protection, they don't have counters (thanks to Duress providing you this info), or when you don't absolutely have to, you're simply fucking up and shouldn't contribute further to the discussion until you learn how to play the deck.

Piceli89

07-22-2009, 10:26 AM

you're simply fucking up and shouldn't contribute further to the discussion until you learn how to play the deck.

Is this sentence referred to me? I didn't understand well this last sentence.
However, I was refering in TES when taking into account Rain of Filth. Of course it's a terrible card here, because often you don't even have sufficient time/resourced to "bait off all opponent's counters", but you're just trying to go off at your risk. And the fact that this deck runs 11-12 lands makes it even more sucky, at least in TES, which is way more brutal than DD or FT.

emidln

07-22-2009, 10:28 AM

Is this sentence referred to me? I didn't understand well this last sentence.
However, I was refering in TES when taking into account Rain of Filth. Of course it's a terrible card here, because often you don't even have sufficient time/resourced to "bait off all opponent's counters", but you're just trying to go off at your risk. And the fact that this deck runs 11-12 lands makes it even more sucky, at least in TES, which is way more brutal than DD or FT.

If you're going off without knowing they have nothing, having a pile of protection, or having no other choice due to pressure, you're making the wrong decision. If you do this knowing your opp is on blue-based control, then it applies to you. From testing with TES and watching other good TES players, I know the deck has more than enough capability of slow-rolling to beat counters.

Piceli89

07-22-2009, 10:56 AM

If you're going off without knowing they have nothing, having a pile of protection, or having no other choice due to pressure, you're making the wrong decision. If you do this knowing your opp is on blue-based control, then it applies to you. From testing with TES and watching other good TES players, I know the deck has more than enough capability of slow-rolling to beat counters.

Of course is the opponent is blue-based control, I'm not going for the throat at all,unless i have duressed him the turn before (which is still risky because of the luck-strokes of blue players in drawing counters at the right time). I think this is pretty clear among all us storm combo players, so no need to say it. For Rain Of Filth, even if TES is capable of slow-rolling control (which is indeed true- that's why control is relatively an easy MU- as long as they don't put a clock on you), i feel that card doesn't belong to the deck at all. Better another non land-dependant acceleration, if we really need it.

emidln

07-22-2009, 10:59 AM

Of course is the opponent is blue-based control, I'm not going for the throat at all,unless i have duressed him the turn before (which is still risky because of the luck-strokes of blue players in drawing counters at the right time). I think this is pretty clear among all us storm combo players, so no need to say it. For Rain Of Filth, even if TES is capable of slow-rolling control (which is indeed true- that's why control is relatively an easy MU- as long as they don't put a clock on you), i feel that card doesn't belong to the deck at all. Better another non land-dependant acceleration, if we really need it.

I agree it doesn't belong in the deck (ask wastedlife because we already had this conversation awhile ago), I was stating that if you aren't playing it because you might lose all your lands to it, you're playing Rain of Filth and your combo deck incorrectly (and thus probably shouldn't be trusted).

Piceli89

07-22-2009, 11:53 AM

I agree it doesn't belong in the deck (ask wastedlife because we already had this conversation awhile ago), I was stating that if you aren't playing it because you might lose all your lands to it, you're playing Rain of Filth and your combo deck incorrectly (and thus probably shouldn't be trusted).

Losing all lands if I'm going to win ,after protection if i face a blue deck, is not a matter. [But there are (rare) times when , if you pass from Duress to clear counters,you're not sure that your opponent is harmless. I give you an example which sometimes occurs to me: i duress him taking fow, he has a top in play, he waits until i cast the key spell, cashes in top and fucks me with a topdeck counter.]
The matter is the optimization of that card with such a low land count,and the presence of self-dying lands. I think the point is clear exposed in this way. It's not that i don't play it because i fear losing all my lands ( perhaps i didn't express correctly my thoughts with that "win now or lose" adfirmation), i don't play it in TES because it doesn't fit in here. Sorry for having generated all these misunderstandings.

SuperBean

07-22-2009, 01:29 PM

I also don't play Ill-Gotten Gains main deck.

Jim Higginbottom

07-23-2009, 12:28 AM

post-m10 not playing IGG main deck means you're doing it wrong

nodahero

07-23-2009, 01:17 AM

Why does not playing it post M10 make it any more wrong than pre-M10? Did I miss something in the rules update? I am still trying to wrap my head around the change in distinction between RFG and exiled... I can't believe they raped my beloved Wishs so much...

BreathWeapon

07-23-2009, 05:31 AM

post-m10 not playing IGG main deck means you're doing it wrong

Against the only decks you need to play IGG against, you don't need to play IGG MD to do it.

Jim Higginbottom

07-23-2009, 09:22 AM

Pre-M10 it was really pretty easy to go turn 2 ad nauseam, that being said you didn't wanna draw IGG with it so some of us didn't run it main deck.

Bryant Cook

07-23-2009, 11:46 AM

post-m10 not playing IGG main deck means you're doing it wrong
At least explain your thoughts on why.

Why does not playing it post M10 make it any more wrong than pre-M10? Did I miss something in the rules update? I am still trying to wrap my head around the change in distinction between RFG and exiled... I can't believe they raped my beloved Wishs so much...
We can no longer do the upkeep trick anymore.

Against the only decks you need to play IGG against, you don't need to play IGG MD to do it.
Have you played in a non-mws event since M10? Zoo is everywhere since it kicks the shit out of counterbalance decks. Counterbalance is now declining finally, however, aggressive decks are on the rise. I’m not comfortable with relying on an additional +2 mana against Zoo decks, that additional mana will take more time, allowing them time to deal more damage. By that time, when you Ill-Gotten Gains, they’ll just burn you out.

Jim Higginbottom

07-23-2009, 12:15 PM

Play testing against goyf sligh last night and zoo the night before I've found that IGG definitley needs to be main deck. By turn 3-4 they can do quite a bit of damage and leave you unable to safely Ad Nauseam. And as Bryant stated, the extra 2 mana to burning wish for it is often simply not available that quickly.

BreathWeapon

07-23-2009, 02:05 PM

Vs Zoo, I just SB in IGG. You've got 3 games to win the match, 2 games with IGG MD and 1 game with IGG SB, and you can still beat Zoo Turn 1/2 with Ad Nauseam or Diminishing Returns for 1 less mana. Zoo seriously shouldn't be a design consideration for our MD efficiency, and I definitely disagree Zoo is pushing out Counterbalance, because it's as ubiquitous as ever IMO.

Also, I run more acceleration than you guys, so that's probably a significant factor.

Piceli89

07-23-2009, 02:45 PM

Ok,BreathWeapon, but it's not that IGG is there only for the Zoo matchup, to be sided in g2 and g3. Apart from the fact that, if you lose g1, you are not sure to win both g2 and g3 because they're going to bring more hate in the form of Canonist/Teeg/Pillar/Thorn and so,so it's a bit risky to say " Oh, we have got g2 and g3 to side IGG in in case we lose g1". And you can't always go turn1-2 Ad nauseam in g1, and i would avoid at any cost to rely too much on Diminishing Returns.
Furthermore, Igg is not only there against aggressive decks, as it may turn out that, in some matches against aggro-control,you're stuck with low life from Tarmogoyf beats and you cannot afford to cast a safe Ad Nauseam. Igg is really a guaranteed victory in these cases, and a further way to go off. Diversifying your ways to create storm is something which makes this deck really difficult to lock totally, and therefore here comes its strength. If we put all our chances on Ad Nauseam, the opponent has way more easy ways to fuck us. Even a meddling mage on AdN can cause serious harm, and must be removed via Wish. And yes, you can say that "I don't have only AdN, i have also IGG with Burning WIsh", but that costs a lot of mana, lots more if you'd pack it MD.

BreathWeapon

07-23-2009, 07:33 PM

Honestly, Meddling Mage on Ad Nauseam is utterly fucking retarded, why wouldn't they just name Infernal Tutor in the first place? And I doubt Zoo is going to bother to SB vs Combo compared to SBing vs more common match ups it can actually win a match against. People constantly said the same thing about Goblins, and they were just as wrong then as Zoo players are wrong now, if they think they can go 2/3 on the back of a hate filled SB.

If you need Ill Gotten Gains MD, then play Ill Gotten Gains MD - personally I don't find it necessary, nor do I find it useful enough, often enough to justify the mulligans and the 4 damage.

GreenOne

07-23-2009, 08:18 PM

Honestly, Meddling Mage on Ad Nauseam is utterly fucking retarded, why wouldn't they just name Infernal Tutor in the first place?
Because people knows that ANT decks are usually packing Mystical Tutor. The fact that you don't just doesn't mean that your opponent knows it.

Wargoos

07-23-2009, 08:50 PM

Because people knows that ANT decks are usually packing Mystical Tutor. The fact that you don't just doesn't mean that your opponent knows it.
I had a little discussion about the mm thing with emidln some pages ago and piceli has just the point.
He says lots of wise things, you should listen to him.

GoldenCid

07-23-2009, 09:09 PM

I still think that igg is a great card for the maindeck, it's an alternative way to combo off different of AN.

And by the way...what about silence MD??

Piceli89

07-24-2009, 07:16 AM

@EaD: thanks, pleased to see someone who doesn't hate me on this thread ^^
@ BreathWeapon: Meddling Mage usually names two things: Tendrils of Agony and Ad Nauseam. The first one is obvious, and even the second is easy to understand , since it's your really bomb. The opponent is not that likely to name IT because Meddling Mage is usually played nowadays in Landstill, and Landstill has a good way to stop your IT+led with an additional counter which is Spell Snare, other than Counterspell and FoW.
And the general knowledge a medium control player has about combo is that AdNauseam is a bomb (not randomly all the storm combo decks, inclding Ant,TES and even Doomsday are often all wrongly mislabeled under "Ad nauseam combo" without taking into account their deep differences, because combo is poorly known by control and aggro-control players) and Tendrils is our finisher, so MMage has to name one of them. A better-than-average Landstill player will name AdN,since he'll know that, if he names Tendrils and you resolve AdN, you will be able easily draw plenty of cards, wish for a removal on mage and then kill him with tendrils.
So, it's not that difficult that a Mage could name AdNauseam, since it seems to be the most dangerous and the "essence" of each modern stom combo at the eyes of non-combo players.
And it's at this point that you proceed fucking them with IGG loops. :P

BreathWeapon

07-24-2009, 07:34 AM

I think you're playing against some seriously inept aggro-control players, if those aggro-control players aren't smart enough to realize cutting off a 4x is better than cutting off a 1x that you're in no way obligated to use. I usually go for game theoretically optimal solutions vs competent opponents than for exploitative plays vs incompetent opponent's when making static decisions like deck construction.

As an aside, any one else bothered to test a set of SSG and compare their utility vs the number of times you lose to their 3cc on the Ad chains? It's such an awesome card for comboing out and after Diminishing Returns, but those bolts to the head really hurt.

Pelikanudo

07-24-2009, 09:40 AM

Play testing against goyf sligh last night and zoo the night before I've found that IGG definitley needs to be main deck. By turn 3-4 they can do quite a bit of damage and leave you unable to safely Ad Nauseam. And as Bryant stated, the extra 2 mana to burning wish for it is often simply not available that quickly.

You play 4Burnin wish which is more than enough to play IGG and win Red decks ,agro and anything which can win you on 4-5 turn by damage,
Simple :
- If you play burning do not run IGG main
- Other wise play 1 IGG main

My Brain Is Big Team

Jim Higginbottom

07-26-2009, 11:20 AM

I went 3-3 in Vestal yesterday losing to faeries with cb+top, TES (bryant cook), and Survival played by TOGITwill (who rode up in the same car as me.) Against faeries he got out an early counterbalance+top and had counters before that. Playing against Bryant I made a few play mistakes (I had a hand with a chrome mox and 2 duress and I didn't imprint a duress and duress him and keeping a LED in my hand when the last time I saw him he specifically told me to always play it when I knew my opponent had discard) and I kept a hand I definitley should not of kept in another game. Game 1 against survival I basically killed myself with Ad Nauseam starting from 19 which was pathetic and in game 3 he got out an early survival and survivaled up a teeg, I wished for deathmark and passed the turn (i only had 2 mana sources) and he than cabal therapied it. I than quickly lost to 2 goyfs.

When I did lose, my team would remind me that I was doing it wrong.http://www.starcitygames.com/images/article/05292008chapin6.jpg

Well, this is the new list. You'll notice there's only one Ad Nauseam, I feel like I don't want to deal with two in the deck any time soon. I was loving being comfortable to Ad Nauseam without worry. The second change was 2 Mystical and 4 Ponder, Mystical Tutor is just weak now. It's still a decent card, but not anywhere near what it was. I even sided it out a few times. Coming out of the sideboard was Infernal Tutor, I'm unsure if it ever actually mattered. It just seemed like a filler slot for the second Ad Nauseam. I got a few tutor heavy hands in the event that I absolutely hated, meaning that Infernal #4 may be leaving. In my eyes there's only 2 (maybe 4) available slots, Infernal (#4) and Chain of Vapor. 4 if you're willing to drop Mystical.

With the sideboard, I wanted a second Shattering Spree back in the board so I could board one in and still be able to wish for one.

As for how I did at the event, my worst in awhile (3-3).

Round one (loss) - I lost g3 to Merfolk, Turn 2 I Rite of Flame, Burning Wish (Resolves). Grab ETW, Rite of Flame, he dazes (I pay), he dazes, in response I Dark Ritual, he forces. I'm stuck with a dead ETW in my hand. Bummer, I didn't do anything wrong, he just got a retarded draw. On the plus side, I had a killer Diminishing Returns g2, I had 2 Duress, Ritual, Tendrils, land, Mox, Infernal with 2 mana floating. Merfolk player had 2 Forces. He still lost.

Round three (loss)- Hollywood my opponent, opened with back to back turn 1 trinispheres. I managed to destroy it g1 and was going to win on my next turn when he played a second. Then g2, I kept a 3 lander with grip and some Rituals. He wastes my 3rd land and I never see another, if I do I kill him that turn.

Round 6 (loss) - ( My only two Mulligans of the day)
It's Zoo, I mull to four and have a turn 3 win. Zoo had a turn 3 win on the play, nactl, Goyf, Chain, Bolt, Bolt, Blast. Then G3 I mulligan I'm forced to Tendrils for 16 to stay alive with another Tendrils in my hand. I have 4 lands and am waiting to draw something I can cast in the same turn. By the time I do, I'm forced to tap city and Tendrils. He bolts and Lavamancers me for exactly enough damage.

I beat Merfolk, Landstill and the Mirror.

I feel like it wasn't the deck's fault, by my opponents just having better draws. (Maybe besides round 6, it shit the bed, where it didn't matter anyway)

Brushwagg

07-26-2009, 02:22 PM

Ok I have a question. Is the 1x Silence better then the 4th Chant? Is Silence there just because it can't be Misdirected back to you? Or does it really matter at all?

Volrath

07-26-2009, 02:36 PM

I think it's for runed halo and MMage.

Nice list, don't you mis the single C.Ritual?, it's a great trick with chalice @ 1 and Trini.

Piceli89

07-26-2009, 02:51 PM

@Brushwagg: a single Silence may really fit the deck, even if the Misdiretion thing won't occur too much in this format ( but still, in my last tourney i got a chant Misdirected on me and it made me lose a turn).

@Bryant: i think that the 4th Infernal Tutor doesn't belong to the deck anymore. It's too fuckin' awesome as a wish target to do crazy shenanigans starting from Bwish and lots of mana. Basically, it allows you to double-IGG (the 1st from the side and the 2nd maindeck) from a burning wish, and go ahead, while you can't do this with Bwish only because it gets removed. Furthermore, there'll be times when drawing , as you were saying, "tutor heavy hands" will be a really pain in the ass (they really slow down your hand), and furthermore infernal tutor is NOT a replace for the 2nd Ad Nauseam, since it's not always hellbented. If you want to stick with more choices, just exploit the ones you already have by running 3 Mysticals to grab them. It's going really good for me now, playing 3 i rarely get 2 in the hands. I feel we need more ways to tutor up AdN, since we play 1 now. Mystical is still good despites that famous trick lost, it can tutor up the piece you miss for your combo-hand. Give it a chance, maybe -1 ponder +1 mystical, trust me, they're worth tryng.

Jim Higginbottom

07-26-2009, 05:54 PM

Why -1 Ponder? If both of your suggestions are taken it is -1 Infernal Tutor +1 Mystical Tutor. I'm running Bryant's list with the exception of that and running 2 Silences + 2 Chants. Unfortunately while running this list on Saturday I still had a Chant misdirected on the last turn I could possibly win against faeries.

Piceli89

07-26-2009, 06:14 PM

Why -1 Ponder? If both of your suggestions are taken it is -1 Infernal Tutor +1 Mystical Tutor. I'm running Bryant's list with the exception of that and running 2 Silences + 2 Chants. Unfortunately while running this list on Saturday I still had a Chant misdirected on Saturday on the last turn I could possibly win against faeries.

Have you tried 4 Duress MD, 1 Thought Seize SB and a 2 Orim's Chant, 2 Silence build? The more I run it, the more I know I want 4 Duress MD to stop Counterbalance at all costs. Orim's Chant/Silence are more mid game disruption, you want them when your opponent has the mana development to cast multiple counters or hide counters with Top, so you can afford to run less of them because you'll draw into them by the time you need them, where you need Duress ASAP before you get completely locked out.

Because I wanted some diversity? I don't want to change the number of protection spells. Because there's decks in the format that aren't blue. Adding addition protection spells past 4 Chant effects and 3 Duress seems like a lot of MD hate.

Cabal Ritual sucks in TES. Its two damage off Ad Nauseam and it sucks pre-Nauseam since we rarely reach Threshold.

@Piceli89- I'm not adding anymore mysticals, they're not as good anymore.

@Breathweapon- I feel like what I said above covers your question.

BreathWeapon

07-27-2009, 02:20 AM

Then if that's the case, would you run 4 Duress/3 Orim's Chant if Duress is more crucial than Orim's Chant turns 1-2 and less dead vs non-blue?

Bryant Cook

07-27-2009, 05:33 PM

Then if that's the case, would you run 4 Duress/3 Orim's Chant if Duress is more crucial than Orim's Chant turns 1-2 and less dead vs non-blue?

The point I was trying to get across is I didn't want to add additional slots for blue. I feel like the number of slots now is fine for the amount of blue decks in the metagame. While blue decks being worse for TES than non-blue, is the reason I play 4/3 Chant/Duress. Duress is worse against Landstill and Merfolk than Counterbalance decks. Counterbalance decks are dying out making Chant better than Duress.

GreenOne

07-27-2009, 06:27 PM

Counterbalance decks are dying out making Chant better than Duress.
I really hope this becomes true, so we can start playing silence in the SB instead of Pyroblast. Unfortunately, I don't see any decline in CB, at least here.

BreathWeapon

07-27-2009, 07:07 PM

I really hope this becomes true, so we can start playing silence in the SB instead of Pyroblast. Unfortunately, I don't see any decline in CB, at least here.

Agreed, I haven't seen any sign of Balance/Top dying out, and I really, really doubt it's the case. If anything, Balance/Top just splashes Red for Firespout vs Zoo, Elves etc. I don't think an aggro deck with a 1/2 cc curve can push it out of the meta, tho' god in heaven I wish it could.

Citrus-God

07-27-2009, 07:08 PM

Because I wanted some diversity? I don't want to change the number of protection spells. Because there's decks in the format that aren't blue. Adding addition protection spells past 4 Chant effects and 3 Duress seems like a lot of MD hate..

If running a 3/1 split between Chant and Silence for diversity, shouldnt you run a 2/2 split? I mean, at least you can Infernal Tutor for Silence at this point and still be able to get around cards like Halo and Mage.

Me_For_president

07-28-2009, 03:30 AM

Hello, Im fairly new to Legacy (acually i started thinking about getting a playable deck just some days ago) and i set my eyes on T.E.S. and after goldfishing and testing diffrent lists i decided to use this list (its essentially Bryant Cook's list with two tweaks) :

So the changes i've done is really just 1 pact of negation and one cunning wish. The Pact i added because i feel like to often you get your plans ruined by FoW or other counters. Sure its abit risky but it also helps protecting while comboing, am i right? (where u might not have the mana for silence/O. chant). Another thing i like about PoN is that it is a free storm count when u have a hard time reaching 9 for tendrils.

And the C. Wish is there cause my AdN in the SB, i really like having a AdN as a wish target, especially since there is only 1 MD.

Do you guy's have any thumb rules when comboing?
I mean, stuff that u should remember so u dont fizzle on stupid mistakes.

Bryant Cook

07-28-2009, 07:36 AM

If running a 3/1 split between Chant and Silence for diversity, shouldnt you run a 2/2 split? I mean, at least you can Infernal Tutor for Silence at this point and still be able to get around cards like Halo and Mage.

Because Chant is better? I actually lost a game to Merfolk because I couldn't time walk him.

Citrus-God

07-28-2009, 12:52 PM

Because Chant is better? I actually lost a game to Merfolk because I couldn't time walk him.

Good enough.

Dark_Cynic87

07-28-2009, 02:12 PM

Then why even run a split? If chant is better, than run 4x. If you decide to go up, Silence should then act as Chants 5-8, but Silence is essentially a worse chant.

I understand the idea of splitting it up for stuff like Halo or Mage or whatever, but honestly, how often to they name Chant/Silence over Tendrils with Halo or a Tutor/Ad Nauseam with Mage? I suppose if you worry about it, 3/1 is the way to go, but it seems like it would be more prudent to go 4x Chant than risk drawing that 1 Silence when you do in fact need the timewalk. I think you need to worry about the aggro matchup more than Halo/Mage. Halo and mage are easily bounced with Chain of Vapor or dealt with via Burning Wish--> Grapeshot, Vindicate, Maelstrom Pulse.

SuperBean

07-28-2009, 06:18 PM

I'm not sure why everyone on this thread is making a huge deal over the Silence/Orim's chant numbers... It really shouldn't be this big of an issue.

Firstly it's Bryant's deck and he can do whatever he wants with it, if he feels like playing Snowfall then it's his decision not ours.

Bryant is running the three and one split of Orim's Chant and Silence for the sake of diversity and just in case a Runed Halo or Meddling Mage come down naming one of the other. The one Silence is also a good Mystical Tutor target if the situation were come about.

We should be working together, sharing ideas, and helping each other out. Not arguing and discussing something that doesn't really matter in the whole scheme of things. Just leave it alone.

GoldenCid

07-28-2009, 06:49 PM

I have an existential dude about Volcanic island here instead of Badland??

Volcanic allows us, by itself, to:

Play rite
Play M. Tutor, Brainstorm and ponder
but not chant/slence, duress, dark ritual.

Badland allows:

Play DR and rite
Play duress
but not chant/silence and the blue "combo bringers"

About side card they are very similar.

kicks_422

07-28-2009, 07:47 PM

I think players who name Tendrils of Agony with their Meddling Mage or Runed Halo, if they're playing a deck with countermagic, do not know what they are doing. Especially if their deck is somethimg as slow sa Landstill.

SuperBean

07-28-2009, 08:48 PM

@ GoldenCid

I've tested Badlands when I was playing a lower land count and I can honestly say that it doesn't work out correctly. You are really dependent on having the initial blue mana for the setup spells of the deck.

Are you trying to say that those two cards are more prevalent than creatures?

JeroenC

07-30-2009, 03:27 PM

Are you trying to say MWS testing is suddenly relevant?

Koby

07-30-2009, 03:46 PM

Are you trying to say that when someone bring in Misdirection and Divert against TES you don't laugh in their face cuz they just boarded in bad cards and/or card disadvantaged themselves?

emidln

07-30-2009, 03:58 PM

Divert is common in Tempo Thresh and Merfolk sideboards due to the influx of Zoo. I can't believe boarding out dead cards for Divert is cause for laughter at the opponent. However, the first time you have a Chant or Tendrils copied Diverted back to you resulting in a gameloss, your opponent probably will have cause for a good chuckle.

If you aren't playing chant/silence in your aggro-playing opponent's upkeep on turns 1-2 anyway to avoid discard/hate bears/chalices/thorns/pressure then you're not playing the matchup correctly anyway. If they never cast their wild nacatl, they certainly can't attack you with it.

Jason

07-30-2009, 04:33 PM

I think players who name Tendrils of Agony with their Meddling Mage or Runed Halo, if they're playing a deck with countermagic, do not know what they are doing. Especially if their deck is somethimg as slow sa Landstill.

Landstill isn't as slow as you'd think with a Meddling Mage in play. That's a clock they've started. I think Mage on Tendrils, especially with at least one counterspell handy, is perfectly fine.

JeroenC

07-30-2009, 05:49 PM

A 10-turn clock? Impressive.

kabal

07-30-2009, 05:59 PM

Divert is common in Tempo Thresh due to the influx of Zoo.

Isn't Disrupt the card that they are running? Quick check of DeckCheck.net yields 0 Tempo Thresh builds for 2009 running Divert in the board. 28 that run Disrupt.

Piceli89

07-30-2009, 06:17 PM

The majority of (good) Merfolk and Tempo Thresh players will have arguably abandoned Divert, seeing how it's pretty much situational and early-game only. And Misdirection is really pure card-disadvantage, so I dunno if the decks which should play it, already playing Fow, would run it, even SB. But still, there's the possibility of a random Chant misdirected or diverted. It happens almost never, but still sometimes it happens. I'l hae to admit that,as a Merfolk player, i have 1 or 2 times Diverted a Chant on a combo player, gaining a turn, which was huge, but that card sucked hard against everything else (ok, burn maybe but at this point i prefer Beb which is more "safe" and flexible), which is the reason I personally left it out of my Merfolk sb.

But i also think that the possibility to fog combat damage is, at the moment in this metagame going towards aggro, still > to the unmisdirectability of Silence. In the end,I'd maybe run 3/1 split of Chant and Silence if i had the m10 card, just hoping that i don't draw it against Zoo,and hoping occasions where it is > to Chant show to me, otherwise I'd go just with the 4 good ol' Orim's.

BackDr0p

07-30-2009, 08:08 PM

Landstill isn't as slow as you'd think with a Meddling Mage in play. That's a clock they've started. I think Mage on Tendrils, especially with at least one counterspell handy, is perfectly fine.

Why would any Landstill player name Tendrils w/ their mage? The usual target are the tutors (Mystical, Infernal and Burning). By shutting those off, you will prevent them from finding answers (CoV, Grapeshot, Slaughter Pact*). Even if you do have a Counterspell in hand, have you considered that they will either chant/silence/duress you before going off? Naming tendrils is only to be considered if you've blocked their ETW route, via EE. Anyhow, vs most Landstill builds the TES player usually has enough time to sculpt his/her hand to fight through most hate.

Jim Higginbottom

07-30-2009, 10:01 PM

My opponents have always named tendrils with MM and Runed Halo. Whether that is the correct play or not isn't for us to decide. It's upto us to play around it.

Jason

07-31-2009, 06:16 AM

Why would any Landstill player name Tendrils w/ their mage? The usual target are the tutors (Mystical, Infernal and Burning). By shutting those off, you will prevent them from finding answers (CoV, Grapeshot, Slaughter Pact*). Even if you do have a Counterspell in hand, have you considered that they will either chant/silence/duress you before going off? Naming tendrils is only to be considered if you've blocked their ETW route, via EE. Anyhow, vs most Landstill builds the TES player usually has enough time to sculpt his/her hand to fight through most hate.

The problem with "sculpting" your hand to fight through the hate is that you are giving Landstill time to find Standstill or Counterspells or more Meddling Mage or Wasteland. By naming Tendrils with the first Meddling Mage, the Landstill player has forced the TES player to find an answer immediately. Also, with Mage on Tendrils, TES can't slow roll Landstill by holding 6 cards and a Tendrils of Agony and just winning, which is a pretty solid way to win a lot of the time against control. Meddling Mage on a tutor is too risky; the Landstill player might name Burning Wish and then you'll have Infernal Tutor. If Meddling Mage is on Orim's Chant, you'll Duress them and take away the relevant spell or win after he or she Brainstormed away the goods. (Not to mention Silence is being played now...) With Mage on Tendrils, you want to have Protection + Tutor in order to just get rid of it. Then you'll need possibly another form of protection and definitely another tutor. If you resolve a chant and have two tutors that you can cast in the same turn, I'm not surprised TES wins. Most of the time, however, the chant is going to be countered, or if you do get rid of the Meddling Mage and can't win that turn (lack of tutors), then you've exhausted too much of your hand and are playing in top deck mode. With more Meddling Mage and/or Runed Halo and Standstill and counter magic and Wastelands and Engineered Explosives (for artifact mana), combined with the card draw Landstill has, I hate having to top deck a silver bullet to win.

So...I'm saying:

A 10-turn clock? Impressive.

Yes, against counter magic and Standstill and Brainstorms and Wastelands, I'd say 10 turns is more than sufficient time for Landstill to stop TES from finding an answer as long as Landstill is naming a win condition and not something that can easily be countered.

BreathWeapon

07-31-2009, 09:38 PM

Are you trying to say that those two cards are more prevalent than creatures?

No, I'm trying to say Misdirection and Divert are more relevant than creatures when they are played - I'm getting more utility out of Silence vs random hate than I am Orim's Chant vs creatures, it's just a metagame observation.

Bryant Cook

08-01-2009, 05:39 PM

I tried something new today, instead of CoV, I moved the SB Duress maindeck. It gave me an incredible boost in the landstill match-up. But I lost a round to Zoo with MD Teeg because I didn't have CoV in the main.

SuperBean

08-02-2009, 12:16 AM

I won my local Legacy tournament with my last posted list this evening. :smile:

Raindown

08-02-2009, 02:37 AM

I won my local Legacy tournament with my last posted list this evening. :smile:

Congrats! I report would be cool or at least match ups.

BreathWeapon

08-02-2009, 06:20 AM

I tried something new today, instead of CoV, I moved the SB Duress maindeck. It gave me an incredible boost in the landstill match-up. But I lost a round to Zoo with MD Teeg because I didn't have CoV in the main.

You'll win more games than you'll lose from 4 MD Duress, it's been a really big hitter in the control and aggro-control match ups.

Jim Higginbottom

08-04-2009, 09:30 AM

I have to worry about artifact hate and teeg in my local metagame, I'm going to keep a bounce spell md.

Bryant Cook

08-04-2009, 09:43 AM

I have to worry about artifact hate and teeg in my local metagame, I'm going to keep a bounce spell md.

It wasn't a permanent change. It's just something I wanted to try, I missed the Duress as a wish target a few times. Trying new things out never hurts.

Opponents often Chalice @ 0 against TES because it's the easiest way to get disruption + pressure on turn 1. Repeal is pretty amazing against Chalice @ 0 or 2 as long as there isn't a Chalice @ 1 in play.

Bryant Cook

08-04-2009, 10:41 AM

Wait. Isn't Repeal pretty bad against Chalice?

No.

Chalice @ 0 = U.
chalice @ 1 = FUCK. Someone just pointed out to me that it has a CMC of 0 on table. Nevermind, bad idea.

Volrath

08-04-2009, 11:08 AM

But you also can't CoV a challice @ 1, so it's only downside is not being able to hit Teeg.
Burning Wish for grapeshot/Deathmark/Pulse/Vindiacte however can deal with Teeg, even G1.

EDIT:
Of course, you would need 3 mana to bounce hatebears like Cannonsit and MM.

Bryant Cook

08-04-2009, 11:20 AM

But you also can't CoV a challice @ 1, so it's only downside is not being able to hit Teeg.
Burning Wish for grapeshot/Deathmark/Pulse/Vindiacte however can deal with Teeg, even G1.

EDIT:
Of course, you would need 3 mana to bounce hatebears like Cannonsit and MM.

I didn't think of it the way you presented the chalice argument. I like that Repeal is only one damage off of Ad Nauseam, it draws a card, and costs 3 against Counterbalance.

As for Hatebears, I don't really see Cannonist or MM maindeck. Against blue Pyroblasts come in to kill Mages, Cannonists are in Affinity and weird survivals where I bring in Sprees/Grips anyway.

Koby

08-04-2009, 11:32 AM

Pyroclasm hits all the hatebears equally. It's also a decent stall against Elves should you have a slow hand (usually lacking acceleration necessary for winning). I like to run 1 Pyroclasm on the SB as a catch-all for creature strategies.

If Chalice/Nullrod/Thorns are a big concern, I would also recommend Ingot Chewer since it is much easier to evoke for R than Spree for RR against a Chalice@1.

Bryant Cook

08-04-2009, 11:36 AM

Pyroclasm hits all the hatebears equally. It's also a decent stall against Elves should you have a slow hand (usually lacking acceleration necessary for winning). I like to run 1 Pyroclasm on the SB as a catch-all for creature strategies.

If Chalice/Nullrod/Thorns are a big concern, I would also recommend Ingot Chewer since it is much easier to evoke for R than Spree for RR against a Chalice@1.

We're talking about the maindeck bounce slot, not sideboard options. Just saying.

sauce

08-04-2009, 11:57 AM

did you guys still not buy into the spell snare?
best tech vs all hate.
counterbalance, canonist, teeg, meddling mage..

Dark_Cynic87

08-04-2009, 12:06 PM

I use Echoing Truth.

Pce,

--DC

Volrath

08-04-2009, 12:10 PM

did you guys still not buy into the spell snare?
best tech vs all hate.
counterbalance, canonist, teeg, meddling mage..

Snare yust Counters them, REB/Pyroblast can also destroy them and counter fows if need be.

I use Echoing Truth.

Pce,

--DC

So do i, if i use them.
I often replace the MD bounce with an extra Duress or Rain of Filth.

Dark_Cynic87

08-04-2009, 06:49 PM

Rain of Filth hasn't panned out well for me. Often, if it would work for me, so would a Cabal Ritual. More than that, it's an extremely all-in kind of card. You have to sac 2 lands for it to be any kind of acceleration, 3 lands to make it like a Dark Ritual, and I never feel safe if I haven't chanted first, and more than that, it's pretty crappy against anything that runs Waste/Stifle, as they do pretty well at shutting down fetches in the first place, and keep you hard-up for mana sources.

I would rather have the bounce than the extra discard as I feel that I can't always be sure that I can rid their hand of everything I need to with just Duresses. When something relevant gets by, I like to know I have the chance of at least topdecking an answer as opposed to having to wish into it (Spell Snare, BEB, Daze, Chant, FoW, CB etc. can really screw you over trying to wish for your CB answer).

Pce,

--DC

BreathWeapon

08-04-2009, 08:08 PM

It wasn't a permanent change. It's just something I wanted to try, I missed the Duress as a wish target a few times. Trying new things out never hurts.

Thoughtseize sucks as a wish target when you're relying on your life total to win the game? You waste a turn wishing, they attack you, then you make yourself lose more life. After all of this try to Ad Nauseam against Threshold/Landstill? Good Luck.

BreathWeapon

08-05-2009, 10:56 AM

Thoughtseize sucks as a wish target when you're relying on your life total to win the game? You waste a turn wishing, they attack you, then you make yourself lose more life. After all of this try to Ad Nauseam against Threshold/Landstill? Good Luck.

If you need disruption, what other choice do you have? You either take 2 damage from Thought Seize, or you take multiple turns of damage as you cantrip/top deck for Duress. Duress is definitely worth it in the MD, IMO, so if the life loss is an issue, maybe you run Cabal Therapy or one of the 2cc Duress clones?

Bryant Cook

08-05-2009, 01:32 PM

If you need disruption, what other choice do you have? You either take 2 damage from Thought Seize, or you take multiple turns of damage as you cantrip/top deck for Duress. Duress is definitely worth it in the MD, IMO, so if the life loss is an issue, maybe you run Cabal Therapy or one of the 2cc Duress clones?

Well right now its an extra artifact hate card, recently Trinisphere decks are becoming popular in my metagame. I'm up to 3 Spree, 1 Hurkly's, 1 Grip, 1 Truth against them.

I've decided against Repeal because of the lack of Counterbalance. It's been dying out while Gaddeck Teeg is in Zoo sideboards which are on the rise.

SuperBean

08-06-2009, 03:11 AM

I'm actually playing a Repeal now in my maindeck for my meta and sideboarding the Wipe Away. Like Bryant said the Counterbalance decks are dying out and I don't see too many of them. I was already paying three mana for a bounce spell and not benefiting from the split second so I'm drawing a card instead and most of the time it just allows me to up my storm count once more by replacing itself.

Piceli89

08-12-2009, 09:58 AM

Repeal is quite a mediocre solution, you want to be pretty brutal and you run a bounce spell that usually requires 3 mana to get rid of what this deck really suffers, which is a 2 drop (a hate bear or counterbalance). Which means you'd have to ramp up to three lands. You'll be dead 3 times before you achieve that. Seriously, i think that the bounce options are pretty much set in stone and run around Echoing Truth or Chain of Vapor. Even Wipe Away, although being that good, doesn't belong to this deck. I'd even dare to say that anything costing 3 or more shouldn't be taken into account, simply because it wouldn't match the way this deck works. TES ain't something like Doomsday with a stable manabase and an increasing curve of the deck's strength as the turns pass, it behaves in the opposite way. Waiting for 3 mana- for an actually counterable spell- is like opening the door of a limousine to your opponent and tell him, "Counterbalance is allowed in here, you have all the time in the world. Oh, you might also want to deal me a shitload of damage with your Zoo while i patiently assemble 3 mana to bounce your Teeg".

At least, i see it that way. Not bouncing Chalice @1 is a further weakness.

johanessen

08-12-2009, 10:21 AM

Repeal is quite a mediocre solution, you want to be pretty brutal and you run a bounce spell that usually requires 3 mana to get rid of what this deck really suffers, which is a 2 drop (a hate bear or counterbalance). Which means you'd have to ramp up to three lands. You'll be dead 3 times before you achieve that. Seriously, i think that the bounce options are pretty much set in stone and run around Echoing Truth or Chain of Vapor. Even Wipe Away, although being that good, doesn't belong to this deck. I'd even dare to say that anything costing 3 or more shouldn't be taken into account, simply because it wouldn't match the way this deck works. TES ain't something like Doomsday with a stable manabase and an increasing curve of the deck's strength as the turns pass, it behaves in the opposite way. Waiting for 3 mana- for an actually counterable spell- is like opening the door of a limousine to your opponent and tell him, "Counterbalance is allowed in here, you have all the time in the world. Oh, you might also want to deal me a shitload of damage with your Zoo while i patiently assemble 3 mana to bounce your Teeg".

At least, i see it that way. Not bouncing Chalice @1 is a further weakness.

Being an ANT player i feel the same than you, repeal is too mana hungry for a unstable mana base, in some cases we'll need to sac a petal or drop a ritual to cast it, although we are drawing a card it simply don't make the cut. I'm at the moment main decking chain of vapor and echoing truth. Chain of Vapor is the nuts at bouncing hatebears and getting storm while echoing truth is what we need to bounce tokens in mirror/ichorid or chalice@1 and cb with top (at least is better than cov)

parallax

08-12-2009, 10:32 AM

Also, Repeal can't bounce Gaddock Teeg.

Bryant Cook

08-12-2009, 10:39 AM

Have you guys not read the last page or so? You're just reiterating all that has been said.

I've already decided on Chain of Vapor, however, I like repeal too.

Jim Higginbottom

08-12-2009, 11:19 AM

Have you thought at all about putting an infernal tutor back in the sideboard?

Bryant Cook

08-12-2009, 12:13 PM

Not until the maindeck is cramped for space again. Right now the 4th Infernal tutor is a filler slot in my eyes until they print something worth playing.

I really want Seething Song as a sorcery for the sideboard.

true story

08-12-2009, 10:24 PM

I know exactly what you should play maindeck to get rid of all the hate!

Pelikanudo

08-13-2009, 01:30 PM

Well the other day I made some testings with my build and got the 4-0 vs merfolk I didn't need to test more because it was easy for me to win him and 3-1 vs Tempo 3shold,
Some points:
As B.Weapon says Definately you all boys should play 1 A.N and 0 IGG, the average damage by A.N is reduced drastically, I also won these game mainly with A.N but not always, and now I can wait to get a good hand sculpting it with briantorms ponders and Mysticals.
For example in one game I played 1st turn duress , 3rd turn duress from burning 4 turn orims and win. This dekcs only need 2 or 3 cards in hand to win, thats the QUESTION and the rest can be duresses and orims, if we have 3 lands in play 1 ritual and mox in hand and a tutor, the rest of cards can be perfectly disruption cards, awesomeˇ ,Also vs Black decks is absurd to win I won the other day 2-0 vs that kind of decks he got to play duress hymn 2 tarmogoyfs and not win, I just was sit down wating with my braintorm and playin the most quantity of artifacts I could, in some point I did mystical tutor
to A.N and win .
Beucause of playing 12 mana and no fetching and 4 moxen + 8 cantrip I have no problems with wastelands.
Also 4 M.Tutor has served me well even if I do not play that clunky chain of vapor its probaly the card I most want to draw, sure I do not want 2 in hand but for sure I want at least 1 ALWAYS, regarding to the card disadvantage it provides, I find this argument absurd, Question: what is better: having in hand a petal or having the option to draw a D.Ritual in the next turn?
Also m.Tutor in conjunction with brainstorm is good.
A conclusion I reached is that playing 4 brianstorm 4 ponder and 12 lands is that I focus the 3shold and control games in a different way,
I mean for instance in the landstill match up (easy as no other) I can play enough disruption and wait until I feel comfortable with my hand in order to lay in a same turn for example 2 duress and 1 orims followed, issue that fascinate me.

Also I like the number '1' in this deck simplify, death mark ,and pyroblasts from side are all welcome.

I absolutly agree with B.Weapon in the most things he says except in the threat density , my deck simply plays higher threat density.
Thanks B.Weapon

fearphage

08-14-2009, 03:18 AM

@Pelikanudo: Just to be clear, your only routes to victory are 1 Ad Nauseam (ending with Tendrils) and 4 Burning Wish (for IGG, EtW, or Returns), correct?

Pelikanudo

08-14-2009, 03:57 AM

@Pelikanudo: Just to be clear, your only routes to victory are 1 Ad Nauseam (ending with Tendrils) and 4 Burning Wish (for IGG, EtW, or Returns), correct?

in main there are 1 a.n 1 tendrils and 4 burnings ritgh

Piceli89

08-14-2009, 06:27 AM

I really want Seething Song as a sorcery for the sideboard.

Exactly, it's what i was searching for too. A mana accel that could be Wished. But I don't think Seething Song is the right choice, the times when you need some black to play Infernals/AdN/Igg are far more that the ones when you'd have another Wish in hand. I mean, to reach the 3 manas for SS sometimes we'd have to put all the petals and lands in it, with the result of getting 5 Red manas and missing B.
Do you know if there's a sorcery-speed spell that gives black ? Even if it's shitty like Cabal Ritual, it could get some space.
(But i guess that, if it existed, we'd have already packed it in the sb, so it's kind of a rethoric question).

p.s. your avatar still needs moar "I'd throw it in her", i guess.:cool:

lorddotm

08-22-2009, 06:07 PM

I'm pprobably going to get yelled at for this, have you guys tested a Doomsday package. Sometimes I find that AdNaus isn't possible (life) and Iggy is just stupid (FoW, Stifle, Blue card; Double Bolt, Fireblast) Would also increase the Turn 1 wins possibly?

Shimster

08-22-2009, 06:56 PM

Do you know if there's a sorcery-speed spell that gives black ? Even if it's shitty like Cabal Ritual, it could get some space.
Channel the Suns.

Piceli89

08-22-2009, 07:07 PM

Channel the Suns.

not that shitty.

Bryant Cook

08-22-2009, 07:41 PM

I'm pprobably going to get yelled at for this, have you guys tested a Doomsday package. Sometimes I find that AdNaus isn't possible (life) and Iggy is just stupid (FoW, Stifle, Blue card; Double Bolt, Fireblast) Would also increase the Turn 1 wins possibly?

Card is awful without top.

ssilver

08-23-2009, 12:13 AM

So what does the standard TES deck look atm? I am borrowing a friends deck, but am looking for ways to improve it against a meta filled with Merfolk, Landstill, and Survival (with blue and forces). I died/ failed to combo off of an Ad Nauseam twice after hitting the second Ad Nauseam (yep taking it out), but I don't know exactly what to put in.

the current or very recent list bryant cook runs is on the 1st page. do you just scoop at the first sight of a sinkhole? that is a horrible mana base. most tes lists are running something like 4 city of brass, 4 gemstone mine, 1 volcanic island and 2 underground seas, although i am running 1 sea and a undiscovered paradise (it's cheaper and I once couldn't make white to silence/chant to igg loop and win when i ran 2 seas.)

BackDr0p

08-23-2009, 08:30 PM

Do you just scoop at the first sight of a sinkhole?

I hope you meant Wasteland?

Bryant Cook

08-23-2009, 08:38 PM

I hope you meant Wasteland?

His point still stands. Land destruction.

Jim Higginbottom

08-23-2009, 11:30 PM

eva green, deadguy ale, and the hybrids of the two are real decks...and they run sinkholes as well as wastelands.

BackDr0p

08-24-2009, 01:06 AM

eva green, deadguy ale, and the hybrids of the two are real decks...and they run sinkholes as well as wastelands.

Alright then. The only reason I mentioned Wasteland is because it sees more play than Sinkhole in Legacy.

I took TES to a small tourney (19 people with 4 rounds of Swiss) going 2-2-0 finishing 11th :(

T1: I tap Gemstone Mine and cast Duress. He has a hand of (Ancient Tomb, Smokestacks, Flagstone, Trinisphere, Cotv, Magus of the Tabernacle, Ravages of War) I take Chalice and pass.
T2: He drops a Ancient Tomb and passes.
T3: Draw Petal. Play Gemstone Mine. Pass.
T4: I chant him during upkeep. EOT, I Cast Mystical Tutor for Infernal Tutor
T5: Draw Tutor and proceed to win via IGG Loop.

T1: He drops a Tomb and passes.
T2: I draw a Ponder. I imprint Ponder on Chrome Mox which I tap, as well as my City of Brass, casting Infernal Tutor for LED.
T3: He wastes my City of Brass and Passes.
T4: I Draw Brainstorm. I Brainstorm into, Petal, Mine and IGG. Petal and Spree go on top. Play my Gemstone Mine and Pass.
T5: He Wastes my Mine, in response I tutor for Ponder.
T6: I Ponder, seeing Petal, B. Wish, Ad Nauseam. Petal To Hand. Pass.
T7: He does nothing this turn but play a second Ancient Tomb.
T8: I win via B. Wish --> IGG

T1: I open with Duress seeing (Daze, Adept, Vial, Island Mutavault, Standstill, Cursecatcher) I take Daze and Pass.
T2: Island Vial, Go.
T3: Draw Ponder. Ponder into (Pyroblast, IGG, Brainstorm) Shuffle. Duress. Pass.
T4: Vial @ 1. Mutavault. Standstill. Go.
T5: I Finally draw a land. Gemstone Mine. Duress. Standstill triggers. I see a ton of blue men (Thrasher, LoA Adept, 2 islands and an Echoing Truth). I make him discard the bounce. I Dark Ritual, Infernal Tutor for LED. Pass turn. EOT he vials in Catcher.
T6: Vial @ 2 Island. Wastes my land City of Brass and hits me for 1.
T7: Draw Mystical Tutor. Pass. EOT He vials in LoA.
T8: Island. Plays Wake Thrasher. Declares attack phase, in response I Mystical Tutor he sacs Catcher. He hits me for 2.
T9: I Draw City of Brass. I play City. LED, LED, Rite of Flame, Burning Wish. He responds by vialing in Adept drawing him a FoW. He Forces, I Blast. I Crack both LED's for UUU and RRR. I then go ETW for 14 Tokens. Mistake.
T10: Untap. Thrasher is 7/7. Vial @ 3. Vials in Sovereign He attacks me with 8/8 thrasher, 4/3 Adept, 3/3 LoA and 4/4 Mutavault. I block Thrasher Muta and Adept.
T11: Draw Lotus Petal. I needed to top deck a Pyroblast in order to stay in the race. I extend my hand.

I think I should have gone for Diminishing Return instead of Empty The Warrens. At least I would have had a better chance at winning. The current board position made it very hard for goblin tokens to go all the way.

The third Mystical Tutor ended up being redundant and was a wasted slot. I sided it out in almost every game. I would have rather had another land in its place.

One slot that I'm very hesitant about is the MD bounce in the form of Chain of Vapor. In testing it has helped me win quite a few games bouncing some random hate bear EOT or increasing storm count by bouncing artifact mana. I'm thinking about replacing it with the Duress that is currently in the board.

Orim's Chant should be replaced by Silence. Most of the Landstill, Ultimate Walker players had Misdirection in their wishboards. Although It does happen that Chant may save you from a lethal attack. The possibility of it being misdirected makes it inferior to Silence in my meta. I guess a 2/2 split would be a viable compromise.

+1 Hurkyl's Recall in sideboard
I'd suggest playing the 4th IT in the MD instead of the 4th duress. You never, ever wish for it, while duress is a nice wish target.

BackDr0p

08-24-2009, 04:07 AM

I'd suggest playing the 4th IT in the MD instead of the 4th duress. You never, ever wish for it, while duress is a nice wish target.

That could work. Furthermore, it will speed up the deck, giving me a better chance to LED, LED, IT ----> IGG.

I have one concern with TES: What do we do once Counterbalance has hit the table? There are times where we won't be able to REB or Pyroblast it. The NLU, Baseruption player just Brainstorms in response to our Duress. Using all means at their disposition to protect it.

Unlike FT/DD and ANT we lack the necessary amount of lands to successfully make use of K. Grip. Scenarios like this usually ensue:

CB hits field. We cannot find answer. They assemble their softlock, drop goyf and we die.

In a meta w/ an abundance Counterbalance.dec what SB sb option would be considered viable and how would our card choices main deck and sideboard reflect that. From what I can see there are two slots that can be dedicated to that purpose. Any Ideas?

How would you put together TES if you knew you had to face at least 3 CB decks at a tournament?

Piceli89

08-24-2009, 07:44 AM

Finally somone has shown up with interesting questions in this thread. Let's try to explore them in depth.

-About the possible changes you'd make to your deck, i think you hit the right point with them. Dual lands ensure you stability while cantripping without taking too much collateral effects from rainbow lands; the 3rd Mystical tutor, although sometimes being golden in some MUs (especially the control ones), is too much. Run the 4th ponder: stacking/shuffling after a brainstorm ensures you a gorgeus hand-sculpting ability, which is vital for combo. Also, you're correct on the Silence issue: we should run Silence and Chant as 2/2 split not only because the m10 one can't be misdirected, but also to allows us to tutor for a second one via Infernal Tutor ,to have a solid protection against controllish decks. Furthermore, the kicker ability of Chant, if you think about it, isn't really that relevant: against the decks which you 'd prevent from attacking, which are usually non-U, you can use chant to "timewalk" them, thus not allowing them to play creatures and then not to deal dmg to you (Emidln, i took this from you :wink: ). The only MU where the Chant's kicker can give you a solid help is actually the Merfolk one, since they pair a fast clock with tons of disruption. But still, even in that MU i have the feeling that Wastelands won't allow you to get double W easily (especially if you play the latest TES versions with dual lands).

- About the 4th Infernal, i find 3 to be the right quantity. Did it ever happen to you to have shitton of mana, no LED and double IT in hand which cloged up your hand, or slowed it a lot? Well, I did several times. Moreover, as I have already sad about 100 times, IT in the sideboard grabbed via Wish is something ridicolously gorgeous, it really makes hands full of mana (LEDS) and Burning wish a safe win without risking to fizzle by Diminishing Returns. Mana-->Wish-->IT-->IGG-->shenanigans-->Win.
You can even use Wish to transform it into an IT to go off the turn later via AdN, if you're allowed or want to.

-And here we get to the harsh point: what to do against CB, and therefore which bounce to play. Well, let's do this for another time:

Wipe Away
pros
-well, uncounterable one
-bounces everything, lands included
-bounces Counterbalance
-with a latest TES mana configuration, you don't have color problems casting it
slops
-costy as hell, and therefore also revealed by AdN it doesn't shine really much
-the double U makes it really mediocre against DStompy, where a Magus of the Moon forces you to have double lotus petal or U-imprinted Mox to use it

Repeal
pros
-cantrips, which is really good for this deck
-can bounce a 0 artifact of yours in response to a EE, letting us make our opponent waste a EE (and therefore tapping out) if he's not particularly brilliant :P
-can bounce Counterbalance at the cost of 3, which makes it difficult to be countered by a flip
-revealed by AdN, it's a 1cc
slops
-doesn't bounce Chalice @1
-doesn't bounce Teeg (X issue)
-costs 4 to bounce Trinisphere
-costs 3 to bounce CB or a Mage or random hate permanent @ 2, which can force you to prolongue the game to find the mana when with another bounce you could have bounced it more cheaply and then to go off.

I think the wisest thing is to choose your own MD bounce in relation to the metagame you're joining. If your one packs a lot of controllish decks, just go for Wipe Away. They'll allow you to find a lot of time to get the lands, bounce their CB, and then go off. If your meta has lots of tempo/Aggro decks, I'd say Chain of Vapor. If Stax ones, Echoing Truth.
Personally, I'm trying Repeal and i changed my mind about it: although being a bit shitty as a bouncer, i rarely find troublesome permanents to be bounced game1, and i really like the cantrip ability, which may allow me to combo a little earlier bouncing my mana artifacts, finding the missing cards and going for a fast kill. You can also bait off a Stifle by making a Chrome Mox coming into play, letting the Imprint trigger on stack, making them Stifle it and rebouncing it and netting a card as well. And bouncing CB with a cc3 bounce gives you a bit more chances, also because against CB the game usually goes long enough to ramp up mana. Just hope they don't daze/fow it.
However, I began to think that the deck needs Krosan Grip post sb, absolutely, against Counterbalance. I'd say an horrible obvious thing, but it's way more better to get rid of it than bouncing it. And with 8 rainbow lands, i think we can afford it. As for now, my sb plan against CB is always -1 mox, -1 brainstorm, -1 chant/duress (duress on the draw), -1 repeal, +3 pyroblast, +1 Krosan grip. Since now, it has worked perfectly for me. In this MU, i usually tend to lose g1 and to win the other 2, and this usually happens to me in Stax/DStompy MUs too, against which siding in 1 Spree, 1 ETruth, 1 Hurkyl's, and 1 KGrip is really good.

lorddotm

08-24-2009, 08:28 AM

Finally somone has shown up with interesting questions in this thread. Let's try to explore them in depth.

-About the possible changes you'd make to your deck, i think you hit the right point with them. Dual lands ensure you stability while cantripping without taking too much collateral effects from rainbow lands; the 3rd Mystical tutor, although sometimes being golden in some MUs (especially the control ones), is too much. Run the 4th ponder: stacking/shuffling after a brainstorm ensures you a gorgeus hand-sculpting ability, which is vital for combo. Also, you're correct on the Silence issue: we should run Silence and Chant as 2/2 split not only because the m10 one can't be misdirected, but also to allows us to tutor for a second one via Infernal Tutor ,to have a solid protection against controllish decks. Furthermore, the kicker ability of Chant, if you think about it, isn't really that relevant: against the decks which you 'd prevent from attacking, which are usually non-U, you can use chant to "timewalk" them, thus not allowing them to play creatures and then not to deal dmg to you (Emidln, i took this from you :wink: ). The only MU where the Chant's kicker can give you a solid help is actually the Merfolk one, since they pair a fast clock with tons of disruption. But still, even in that MU i have the feeling that Wastelands won't allow you to get double W easily (especially if you play the latest TES versions with dual lands).

- About the 4th Infernal, i find 3 to be the right quantity. Did it ever happen to you to have shitton of mana, no LED and double IT in hand which cloged up your hand, or slowed it a lot? Well, I did several times. Moreover, as I have already sad about 100 times, IT in the sideboard grabbed via Wish is something ridicolously gorgeous, it really makes hands full of mana (LEDS) and Burning wish a safe win without risking to fizzle by Diminishing Returns. Mana-->Wish-->IT-->IGG-->shenanigans-->Win.
You can even use Wish to transform it into an IT to go off the turn later via AdN, if you're allowed or want to.

-And here we get to the harsh point: what to do against CB, and therefore which bounce to play. Well, let's do this for another time:

Wipe Away
pros
-well, uncounterable one
-bounces everything, lands included
-bounces Counterbalance
-with a latest TES mana configuration, you don't have color problems casting it
slops
-costy as hell, and therefore also revealed by AdN it doesn't shine really much
-the double U makes it really mediocre against DStompy, where a Magus of the Moon forces you to have double lotus petal or U-imprinted Mox to use it

Repeal
pros
-cantrips, which is really good for this deck
-can bounce a 0 artifact of yours in response to a EE, letting us make our opponent waste a EE (and therefore tapping out) if he's not particularly brilliant :P
-can bounce Counterbalance at the cost of 3, which makes it difficult to be countered by a flip
-revealed by AdN, it's a 1cc
slops
-doesn't bounce Chalice @1
-doesn't bounce Teeg (X issue)
-costs 4 to bounce Trinisphere
-costs 3 to bounce CB or a Mage or random hate permanent @ 2, which can force you to prolongue the game to find the mana when with another bounce you could have bounced it more cheaply and then to go off.

I think the wisest thing is to choose your own MD bounce in relation to the metagame you're joining. If your one packs a lot of controllish decks, just go for Wipe Away. They'll allow you to find a lot of time to get the lands, bounce their CB, and then go off. If your meta has lots of tempo/Aggro decks, I'd say Chain of Vapor. If Stax ones, Echoing Truth.
Personally, I'm trying Repeal and i changed my mind about it: although being a bit shitty as a bouncer, i rarely find troublesome permanents to be bounced game1, and i really like the cantrip ability, which may allow me to combo a little earlier bouncing my mana artifacts, finding the missing cards and going for a fast kill. You can also bait off a Stifle by making a Chrome Mox coming into play, letting the Imprint trigger on stack, making them Stifle it and rebouncing it and netting a card as well. And bouncing CB with a cc3 bounce gives you a bit more chances, also because against CB the game usually goes long enough to ramp up mana. Just hope they don't daze/fow it.
However, I began to think that the deck needs Krosan Grip post sb, absolutely, against Counterbalance. I'd say an horrible obvious thing, but it's way more better to get rid of it than bouncing it. And with 8 rainbow lands, i think we can afford it. As for now, my sb plan against CB is always -1 mox, -1 brainstorm, -1 chant/duress (duress on the draw), -1 repeal, +3 pyroblast, +1 Krosan grip. Since now, it has worked perfectly for me. In this MU, i usually tend to lose g1 and to win the other 2, and this usually happens to me in Stax/DStompy MUs too, against which siding in 1 Spree, 1 ETruth, 1 Hurkyl's, and 1 KGrip is really good.

Why the Fetchland over the 4th Duress?
Why no Grapeshot?
The sideboard Duress seems kind of slow, maybe thats just me?
What do you do against Merfolk?

Piceli89

08-24-2009, 09:02 AM

I like it a lot, I just have a few questions.

Why the Fetchland over the 4th Duress?
Why no Grapeshot?
The sideboard Duress seems kind of slow, maybe thats just me?
What do you do against Merfolk?
[/LIST]

1) I feel comfortable with 12 lands. Lots of Wasteland in my meta. Plus, 7 pieces of protection work smoothly for me, with 8 i'd risk to clog up my hand.
2) No grapeshot because i had something more important to run in the sb: Deathmark. More cheap to kill Teegs, Mages, ecc, non-relying on other cards to generate storm. I never had a real need of Grapeshot, since Mage/Runed Halo on Tendrils is easily defeatable.
3)The sideboard Duress is absolutely necessary. It turns Burning Wish into a protection spell, if we are missing it. I often Wish for Duress, in control MUs, where i have the time to.
4) Against Merfolks, i use to do -1 Mox, -1 Brainstorm, -1 Repeal, +3 Pyroblast, since it's a 1cc instant Vindicate too in case it must be used for this function. It still remains a tight MU, though, even if not impossible (just hope they don't get double wasteland).

Raindown

08-24-2009, 10:21 AM

I played TES this weekend in a 36 man torney that was 6 swiss with cut to Top 8. I dropped after I was 2-3. I don't have time for a full report atm, but I played a std list but lacking dual lands.

Worse match ups were Dragon Stompy and Landstill.

Dragon Stompy landed a magus of the moon on both his first turns and it was chalice and trinisphere right after. (2-0)

I almost took a game off landstill, but my 22 goblins got owned when he brainstormed into EE. (2-0)

Also lost to goblins 2-1
Probably by play mistakes and bad mulligan calls. Twice I had IGG in opening hand and should have chucked the hand.

Won against enchantress (beautiful opening hands) and narrowly got the g3 win off Ichorid.

I hope to go a better report later, to help improve my play with the deck.

Jim Higginbottom

08-24-2009, 10:57 AM

why did you have 22 goblins? could you not make black mana for some reason? goblins are bad against landstill...they run 2-3 ee and 2-3 wraths.

Raindown

08-24-2009, 11:04 AM

why did you have 22 goblins? could you not make black mana for some reason? goblins are bad against landstill...they run 2-3 ee and 2-3 wraths.

I can't recall, but I think it was my only option, I couldn't get that BB for Tendrils.

BreathWeapon

08-24-2009, 02:00 PM

Has any body tried Spiraling Embers in the SB? It's a rough kill condition off of Ad Nauseam and either acts as removal vs hate bears (maybe Tarmogoyf) or damage to the dome in a pinch. It seems really narrow, but I thought it'd be interesting food for thought, especially if it can bypass the need to remove Meddling Mage on Tendrils of Agony or black mana post Ad Nauseam.

Bryant Cook

08-24-2009, 02:17 PM

Has any body tried Spiraling Embers in the SB? It's a rough kill condition off of Ad Nauseam and either acts as removal vs hate bears (maybe Tarmogoyf) or damage to the dome in a pinch. It seems really narrow, but I thought it'd be interesting food for thought, especially if it can bypass the need to remove Meddling Mage on Tendrils of Agony or black mana post Ad Nauseam.
3R mana cost ruins the card.

lorddotm

08-24-2009, 07:00 PM

3R mana cost ruins the card.

Wait why?

Tendrils is 2BB? Unless I've been playing the wrong card...

Jeff Kruchkow

08-24-2009, 07:22 PM

Wait why?

Tendrils is 2BB? Unless I've been playing the wrong card...

Embers doesn't kill people.
Tendrils Does.

lorddotm

08-24-2009, 08:53 PM

Embers doesn't kill people.
Tendrils Does.

Very true.

Bryant whatchu think of Piceli's list?

Raindown

08-24-2009, 09:21 PM

Ok, its turn 1

You have ponder, brainstorm, probably a land, and other randoms, but not enough to combo out.

What is the right play? Ponder first or Brainstorm?

lorddotm

08-24-2009, 09:29 PM

Ok, its turn 1

You have ponder, brainstorm, probably a land, and other randoms, but not enough to combo out.

What is the right play? Ponder first or Brainstorm?

Depends on the other randoms...

Raindown

08-24-2009, 09:42 PM

Depends on the other randoms...

I knew I was going to get that reply:tongue:

Jeff Kruchkow

08-24-2009, 11:11 PM

I knew I was going to get that reply:tongue:

then why ask?

in all seriousness. if i need 2+ more cards to go off i would storm then ponder so that i could shuffle away crap. but if all you need is like a single accelerant, id go for ponder.

imo tho,most situations, i would storm first so i can shuffle

BreathWeapon

08-25-2009, 03:19 AM

3R mana cost ruins the card.

How so? It seems advantageous to be able to resolve the kill off of red mana instead of black mana after the Ad Nauseam chain and/or bypass the need to remove Meddling Mage, altho' if you have 20 cards in hand it may very well be a moot point.

Granted, it's probably just another card to add to the not good enough list, but nothing has really been said about it yet. I figured it was potentially better than Grape Shot, but Grape Shot is pretty bad regardless.

Piceli89

08-25-2009, 07:41 AM

Well guys,the only way to exploit that 3R card is to put it maindeck in g2,and to cast it after an AdNauseam. Which makes it bad, because it'll be a really shit every time you'll draw it except for the kill application. Why did i say Maindeck?
Because in certain situations with Tendrils not usable, you'll have to go
accel-->Wish-->break LED(s)-->DISCARD HAND-->that thing: "deal 0 damage to your oppo".

Fail.

BreathWeapon

08-25-2009, 10:46 AM

Well guys,the only way to exploit that 3R card is to put it maindeck in g2,and to cast it after an AdNauseam. Which makes it bad, because it'll be a really shit every time you'll draw it except for the kill application. Why did i say Maindeck?
Because in certain situations with Tendrils not usable, you'll have to go
accel-->Wish-->break LED(s)-->DISCARD HAND-->that thing: "deal 0 damage to your oppo".

Fail.

No, because if you have LED then you'd never wish for Spiraling Embers over Tendrils of Agony, Spiraling Embers lets you 1R + 3R off of Rite of Flame(s) - and with 20+ cards seen, the odds of hitting 2+ Rite of Flames are really high. Vs Meddling Mage, it basically lets you redirect its target from Tendrils of Agony to Lion's Eye Diamond.

It's probably too situational, I just thought it should be included for posterity's sake.

Piceli89

08-25-2009, 12:17 PM

No, because if you have LED then you'd never wish for Spiraling Embers over Tendrils of Agony, Spiraling Embers lets you 1R + 3R off of Rite of Flame(s) - and with 20+ cards seen, the odds of hitting 2+ Rite of Flames are really high. Vs Meddling Mage, it basically lets you redirect its target from Tendrils of Agony to Lion's Eye Diamond.

It's probably too situational, I just thought it should be included for posterity's sake.

You won't always get several rite of flames, and as you said, if you have mana, you'd go for Tendrils, which is way better. Still, netting 18-20 cards with AdN is higly improbable, usually it's 10-15 starting from an avg of 15-16-17 life (assuming we have received some beats and some dmg from Brasses). At this point it's really better to grapeshot..and if it's better grapeshot, well...

Raindown

08-25-2009, 01:11 PM

I'm really looking for something to replace maybe 2-3 of the ponder/brainstorms. It usually seems like I have too many in my opening hands or after AdN.

Am I being silly?

Bryant Cook

08-25-2009, 01:14 PM

Bryant whatchu think of Piceli's list?

Why does it matter? He's playing an almost identical list.

12th land - I've never felt I need it.
Repeal vs Cov = I like them both, but Gaddeck Teeg is everywhere in my Metagame.

Sideboard- a tiny bit different. Deathmark. Woooo.

Spiraling embers - it can't kill Gaddeck Teeg, I don't really care.

Piceli89

08-25-2009, 02:39 PM

Sideboard- a tiny bit different. Deathmark. Woooo.

Wooo. Grapeshot. If your meta really has lots of Gaddock Teeg, then perhaps Deathmark could be a more interesting choice, since it kills that fucking ol' scrooge more cheaply. How much is Grapeshot relevant as an alt win-con after Tendrils against Mages or Halos played by Landstill? To kill Teeg w/ Grapeshot and go off the same turn (to avoid getting another Teeg/Canonist on da face) you must have a god hand with shittons of mana to go Wish--> Grapeshot AND another way to go on storming to fnish into ToA.

But,hey, after all you're named Bryant Cook, so you won't follow a word of what i say. I don't even try. :wink:

Bryant Cook

08-25-2009, 02:53 PM

Wooo. Grapeshot. If your meta really has lots of Gaddock Teeg, then perhaps Deathmark could be a more interesting choice, since it kills that fucking ol' scrooge more cheaply. How much is Grapeshot relevant as an alt win-con after Tendrils against Mages or Halos played by Landstill? To kill Teeg w/ Grapeshot and go off the same turn (to avoid getting another Teeg/Canonist on da face) you must have a god hand with shittons of mana to go Wish--> Grapeshot AND another way to go on storming to fnish into ToA. I've won matches due to grapeshot. I've never heard of anyone winning a match due to deathmark.

But,hey, after all you're named Bryant Cook, so you won't follow a word of what i say. I don't even try. :wink:

At least you realize the truth. :)

SuperBean

08-26-2009, 03:17 AM

I second the winning matches due to Grapeshot, mothalicka!

Piceli89

08-26-2009, 05:37 AM

But Deathmark can destroy a green creature, too.
So it may save us all from losing to Forests. :cool:

But Deathmark can destroy a green creature, too.
So it may save us all from losing to Forests. :cool:

I'd cut ETW before I cut grapeshot. I never use that POS.

Jeff Kruchkow

08-26-2009, 06:47 PM

I'd cut ETW before I cut grapeshot. I never use that POS.

Word. I cant remember the last time I actually had to turn dudes sideways to win.

Also, how are we all feeling about the zoo matchup?
I know everyone is like, OMG its combo we beat aggro period. Not true. a 3/3 turn one followed but bolts and shit quickly makes AdN not so good and assembling an IGG loog is both dangerous and time consuming. I keep feeling like I want just a wee bit more accel in the deck. Anyone else experiencing this?

Bryant Cook

08-26-2009, 06:59 PM

Word. I cant remember the last time I actually had to turn dudes sideways to win.

Also, how are we all feeling about the zoo matchup?
I know everyone is like, OMG its combo we beat aggro period. Not true. a 3/3 turn one followed but bolts and shit quickly makes AdN not so good and assembling an IGG loog is both dangerous and time consuming. I keep feeling like I want just a wee bit more accel in the deck. Anyone else experiencing this?

I've lost one match to Zoo out of several. He was playing MD Teegs and sideboard chants. Without these I don't see any problems.

GreenOne

08-26-2009, 07:22 PM

OMG its combo we beat aggro period.

keys

08-26-2009, 07:29 PM

With the right Sideboard and some lucky draws, Zoo can be just as if not more formidable than a lot of blue-based aggro/control. Duress and Chant do nothing to stop the hate bears, and while it's not particularly hard to tutor up a death mark or chain of vapor, you're on a clock and that extra turn might cost you the game.

lorddotm

08-26-2009, 07:43 PM

Zoo is not that hard to beat. They watch you jack off.

keys

08-26-2009, 08:00 PM

In testing, I beat you almost every game a Teeg/Canonist hit the table, which was like 1/3 of the games when playing 4 total.

lorddotm

08-26-2009, 08:05 PM

Ya well, I had just picked up the deck, and I wasn't running Deathmark/bounce/stuff like that.

But Zoo isn't a bye, but it shouldn't be too difficult, I find myself going for Iggy more often than AdN

fearphage

08-27-2009, 03:39 AM

I'd cut ETW before I cut grapeshot. I never use that POS.Is this a joke or are you the luckiest man in the universe? Being normal, I hit situations where I can produce tons of red mana and little/no black on rare occassions. Also if I can't kill in one turn, I'll go for tokens.

I find myself going for Iggy more often than AdNI agree. It's cheaper and there's no gambling involved. Ad Nauseam is just my oh shit! button.

Raindown

08-27-2009, 11:07 AM

I find myself going for Iggy more often than AdN

Does that mean you only run one Ad N over 2 copies?

lorddotm

08-27-2009, 11:15 AM

Does that mean you only run one Ad N over 2 copies?

I run 1 AdN and 1 Iggy.

johanessen

08-27-2009, 11:24 AM

I'm playing Ghastly Demise over deathmark slot for eot kill and have mana to combo

TeKo

08-27-2009, 11:31 AM

So you play Cunning Wish instead of Burning? ... :wink:

Bryant Cook

08-27-2009, 11:32 AM

Is this a joke or are you the luckiest man in the universe? Being normal, I hit situations where I can produce tons of red mana and little/no black on rare occassions. Also if I can't kill in one turn, I'll go for tokens.

I'm playing Ghastly Demise over deathmark slot for eot kill and have mana to combo

Why?! Why not just run Chain of Vapor? It deals with more cards.

johanessen

08-27-2009, 11:39 AM

Well I run one copy of Chain of Vapor and one of Ghastly Demise for Gaddok and Meddling, double Meddling, etc. Also it can be proactive. Play Gaddok? eot kill, no matter if I combo next turn or into two, and maybe i need mana to sculpt hand. Note it's is a fishy deck playing Vial CoV doesn't work, coz they can play again the hatebear. Ghastly Demise is also great against merfolk to kill the cursecancer

lorddotm

08-27-2009, 11:41 AM

No? ETW is answered too easily, I'd rather wait until I can Tendrils.

So youre saying winning in two turns from when u go off is worse than winning in some number of turns that you don't know?

Bryant Cook

08-27-2009, 12:39 PM

So youre saying winning in two turns from when u go off is worse than winning in some number of turns that you don't know?

More than likely you only need 1, maybe 2 mana more to go off without Warrens so you can Returns/ or Infernal -> Nauseam. So yes, I'll wait for a sure thing rather than a bunch of vunerable 1/1's. ETW is only good in my eyes on turn one.

BreathWeapon

08-27-2009, 01:00 PM

There's no point in arguing ETW vs Grape Shot, since neither card serves as a replacement for the other. ETW is either a good/bad card based on the opponent's MD/SBing tendencies, or it's your only out based on mana, storm or turn restrictions etc. Even if you never cast the card, it's doing it's job, because your opponent always has to take it into consideration - sometimes the threat of a card is more effective than the application.

Raindown

08-27-2009, 01:06 PM

I use ETW when I can't get the storm count high enough to win with tendrils.

lorddotm

08-27-2009, 01:32 PM

More than likely you only need 1, maybe 2 mana more to go off without Warrens so you can Returns/ or Infernal -> Nauseam. So yes, I'll wait for a sure thing rather than a bunch of vunerable 1/1's. ETW is only good in my eyes on turn one.

Against aggro, it can be impossible to get enough storm without AdN which will end up with u getting some bolts to your face and die.

emidln

08-27-2009, 01:41 PM

Against aggro, it can be impossible to get enough storm without AdN which will end up with u getting some bolts to your face and die.

Against aggro you should be setting up IGG.

Bryant Cook

08-27-2009, 08:09 PM

Against aggro, it can be impossible to get enough storm without AdN which will end up with u getting some bolts to your face and die.
What Emildn said, you shouldn't be using Ad Nauseam. Try Returns or Igg.

There's no point in arguing ETW vs Grape Shot, since neither card serves as a replacement for the other. ETW is either a good/bad card based on the opponent's MD/SBing tendencies, or it's your only out based on mana, storm or turn restrictions etc. Even if you never cast the card, it's doing it's job, because your opponent always has to take it into consideration - sometimes the threat of a card is more effective than the application.

All I was saying if I had to cut a SB slot it'd be IGG before Grapeshot. I'm aware that people are still forced to fear ETW.

Raindown

08-27-2009, 08:53 PM

With returns, is it like IGG, float as much mana as possible and hope for a good draw?

lorddotm

08-27-2009, 08:58 PM

With returns, is it like IGG, float as much mana as possible and hope for a good draw?

Pretty much.

GoldenCid

08-28-2009, 11:07 PM

Has anybody tested Doomsday?? Thoughts? Experiences??

Raindown

08-28-2009, 11:56 PM

Has anybody tested Doomsday?? Thoughts? Experiences??

I want to know as well, perhaps there is something we can take away from other Storm decks like ANT

tsabo_tavoc

08-29-2009, 03:58 AM

Has anybody tested Doomsday?? Thoughts? Experiences??

No because nobody runs Sensei's Diving Top in TES.

lorddotm

08-29-2009, 09:09 AM

No because nobody runs Sensei's Diving Top in TES.

Why not run Top? It's also awesome with Mystical Tutor.

Piceli89

08-29-2009, 09:15 AM

Why not run Top? It's also awesome with Mystical Tutor.

Top doesn't like City of Brass and Gemstone Mine very much..

On another note, I know this is the 100th time i ask it, but has anyone pondered cutting the 4th mox? It's always a terrible topdeck and having 2 is wasting 2 cards in hand. Ok, they're necessary for AdN, but is the full-set really neessary? 4 would be fine if the deck had fetches to benefit cheap shuffle effects after brainstorm, but without them, brainstorming and putting back 2 moxes won't gtfo them. Perhaps it could be replaced by another mana accel.. and the obvious choice is Cabal Ritual. You can say that it's a shitty accel and goes under Spell snare and ecc ecc., but it's better than drawing 2 moxes, this is for sure. Plus, having cut 1 Ad Nauseam, we can flip for a greater qty of cards when going off via AdN, so that would ensure us enough possibilities to find a Mox or a Petal if we are searching for free mana.

lorddotm

08-29-2009, 09:24 AM

Top doesn't like City of Brass and Gemstone Mine very much..

On another note, I know this is the 100th time i ask it, but has anyone pondered cutting the 4th mox? It's always a terrible topdeck and having 2 is wasting 2 cards in hand. Ok, they're necessary for AdN, but is the full-set really neessary? 4 would be fine if the deck had fetches to benefit cheap shuffle effects after brainstorm, but without them, brainstorming and putting back 2 moxes won't gtfo them. Perhaps it could be replaced by another mana accel.. and the obvious choice is Cabal Ritual. You can say that it's a shitty accel and goes under Spell snare and ecc ecc., but it's better than drawing 2 moxes, this is for sure. Plus, having cut 1 Ad Nauseam, we can flip for a greater qty of cards when going off via AdN, so that would ensure us enough possibilities to find a Mox or a Petal if we are searching for free mana.

Personally I would never cut the 4th Mox. A lot of the time when I'm going off, I AdN with 0 mana floating, and will need both black and red to go off, this is where I need to get two Moxes/Petals off of AdN, anything less than that, and I will fizzle.

While yes, double Mox hands really do suck, they are worth is when you don't lose.

BreathWeapon

08-29-2009, 09:25 AM

Top doesn't like City of Brass and Gemstone Mine very much..

On another note, I know this is the 100th time i ask it, but has anyone pondered cutting the 4th mox? It's always a terrible topdeck and having 2 is wasting 2 cards in hand. Ok, they're necessary for AdN, but is the full-set really neessary? 4 would be fine if the deck had fetches to benefit cheap shuffle effects after brainstorm, but without them, brainstorming and putting back 2 moxes won't gtfo them. Perhaps it could be replaced by another mana accel.. and the obvious choice is Cabal Ritual. You can say that it's a shitty accel and goes under Spell snare and ecc ecc., but it's better than drawing 2 moxes, this is for sure. Plus, having cut 1 Ad Nauseam, we can flip for a greater qty of cards when going off via AdN, so that would ensure us enough possibilities to find a Mox or a Petal if we are searching for free mana.

A number of people 3xChrome Mox, the problem tho' is initial mana sources are a precious commodity in TES, so you'd have to look into SSG etc. and not a shitty Cabal Ritual.

lorddotm

08-29-2009, 11:32 AM

A number of people 3xChrome Mox, the problem tho' is initial mana sources are a precious commodity in TES, so you'd have to look into SSG etc. and not a shitty Cabal Ritual.

The main issue with Spirit Guides is their awesome 3 converted mana costs off of AdN.

In my opinion, although its a pain in the ass sometimes, four Chrome Mox is a must.

(How many of you are getting foil Mysticals and Petals, I already have 4 Petals, and two Mysticals :smile: )

BreathWeapon

08-29-2009, 01:24 PM

The main issue with Spirit Guides is their awesome 3 converted mana costs off of AdN.

In my opinion, although its a pain in the ass sometimes, four Chrome Mox is a must.

(How many of you are getting foil Mysticals and Petals, I already have 4 Petals, and two Mysticals :smile: )

I'm really conflicted over SSG, while it's an initial mana source, a Daze counter and increases the fundamental turn, there's no arguing 3 damage off of Ad Nauseam sucks. I think if you cut the second Ad Nauseam and the Ill Gotten Gains, the number of times you'll die to SSG is worth the number of times you'll win from SSG increasing your goldfish, countering Daze or giving you a red mana off of Diminishing Returns for the Lion's Eye Diamond, Rite of Flame into Burning Wish chains (which is where it's awesome).

GoldenCid

08-29-2009, 09:46 PM

No because nobody runs Sensei's Diving Top in TES.

I thought it as a wish alternative...

BreathWeapon

08-30-2009, 01:43 AM

I thought it as a wish alternative...

I use to use it, the problem tho' is that it's really, really hard to set up and more often than not you're better off wishing/cantripping for something else than you are DDAYing.

Pulp_Fiction

08-30-2009, 03:35 AM

Some talk about Doomsday and Burning Wish makes me think about NLS. A storm combo deck emidln posted over on the stormboards. It functions similar to TES and runs: Doomsday (4 Top in the main), ITutor, BWish, and AdN. You guys should check it out, the deck is crazy explosive, if you don't have access to the site I can post the last list if anyone is interested. Given, this is a TES thread but ... it does play Burning Wish!

GreenOne

08-30-2009, 07:11 AM

Some talk about Doomsday and Burning Wish makes me think about NLS. A storm combo deck emidln posted over on the stormboards. It functions similar to TES and runs: Doomsday (4 Top in the main), ITutor, BWish, and AdN. You guys should check it out, the deck is crazy explosive, if you don't have access to the site I can post the last list if anyone is interested. Given, this is a TES thread but ... it does play Burning Wish!
IGG too, obviously.

Bryant Cook

08-30-2009, 10:40 AM

Some talk about Doomsday and Burning Wish makes me think about NLS. A storm combo deck emidln posted over on the stormboards. It functions similar to TES and runs: Doomsday (4 Top in the main), ITutor, BWish, and AdN. You guys should check it out, the deck is crazy explosive, if you don't have access to the site I can post the last list if anyone is interested. Given, this is a TES thread but ... it does play Burning Wish!

I helped create it. However, I don't think it's appropriate for this thread.

Doomsday isn't worth playing without top. I was trying to use it as a wish target, but having to hold Ponders/Brainstorms was weak.

Jeff Kruchkow

08-30-2009, 06:05 PM

Some talk about Doomsday and Burning Wish makes me think about NLS. A storm combo deck emidln posted over on the stormboards. It functions similar to TES and runs: Doomsday (4 Top in the main), ITutor, BWish, and AdN. You guys should check it out, the deck is crazy explosive, if you don't have access to the site I can post the last list if anyone is interested. Given, this is a TES thread but ... it does play Burning Wish!

If you could PM me a copy, im interested in the list.

GoldenCid

08-30-2009, 06:40 PM

If you could PM me a copy, im interested in the list.

So do i

Waikiki

08-30-2009, 06:46 PM

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14613

check that out.

GreenOne

08-30-2009, 08:05 PM

If you could PM me a copy, im interested in the list.

So do i
You can also find an open thread and discussion about it in the STORM boards (http://teamstormboards.proboards.com/)

Piceli89

08-31-2009, 06:15 PM

So guys, returning to talk about "our" version of TES, I'd like to discuss with you about the "Interchangeable" slot, which is occupied by a bounce spell in most of the cases. I've been thinking about it, and I came to the conclusion that a bounce spell isn't always the right option in that slot. I mean, this deck is an aggressive storm combo; therefore, it should try to achieve its goal (which is the one to manage to go off) in a few turns, without taking too much time. Does the bounce follow this philosophy? No, it just delays the opponent few turns bouncing a permanent and forcing him to replay it again. Even in the case of the real troublesome permanents, where I can more understand its purpose, the bounce slot may not always be good.
Let's take Counterbalance, for example, which i assume everyone agrees when i say it's the most painful card for TES g1. The most of the times, I noticed it's almost impossible to bounce it. If we try to bounce it immediately, the bounce spell will probably be Dazed/FoWed (of course it's given that our opponent knows that CB is a bit painful for combo). The turns after, the opponent will be likely to stay mana open a bit to begin countering all your spells, in combo with Top, with cantrips, or with luck, so it's even less probable that the bounce spell with get through. Furthermore Since the most likely bounce spell TES can afford to run is Chain Of Vapor, it will be even more difficult to gtfo CB. Try to tutor Chain of Vapor via Mystical or cantrip ? Mystical or cantrip countered, fail.
The only option would be Wipe Away maindeck; but, as we know, it seriously interferes with the mana-light structure of the deck, with AdN and sometimes may be too much heavy to stick in hand and denying hellbent a hand with Infernal Tutor (wthout LED).

The reasoning above was pretty obvious and hackneyed, I admit it; but it is to say that I'm not convinced a Bouncer is always good, and I got to this convinction after having seen that no one of the TES-hybridesque lists that show up on Deckcheck (the ones with some fetchlands, duals, similar to that one played by Kolowith at the Gp Chicago) actually run a bounce spell maindeck, but still made top8s.
Against Cb.dec, the "plan" should be the one to usually lose g1 (if CB lands), and then get g2 and g3 with a solid sideboard. 3 Pyroblast and 1 Krosan Grip should rally help against that fucking enchantment.

Now, if we cut the bounce spell, the question comes natural: what to play in that slot? And here I toyed around with some teches and crazy ideas.

Option #1 : Extirpate
pros
-well, can get rid of what you want in the yard, of course it should be used on FoWs or Dazes;
-it's really good against those deck with few hardcounters, such a Merfolk;
-split second;
-even if not played on a hardcounter, is an uncounterable way to look at your oppo's hand to setup your hand and know how to play through instant hate.
-in desperate cases, it can even be used to change the card on top of the deck revealed by CB.
-good against enemy combos, and Ichorid, if you'll ever need it.
cons
-requires a fow or the other desired counter to be in the bin to work at its very use.

Option #2: Gigadrowse
pros:
-can tap multiple permanents, especially lands, at instant speed, making it a pseudo-Turnabout really good against Thresholesque decks and even more Landstill.
-can act like a pseudo Chant either by tapping enemy's lands at upk or tapping its creatures in order to fog them;
-pretty much uncounterable if it's >=3. Of course this happens when you're waiting a bit before going off, i.e. usually against blue decks.
slops:
-quite mana hungry, that's why I don't think it really combos well with the way this decks works (perhaps it could be more interesting in ANT or in 3-color Doomsday). Still a good option, though, in case of a metagame really full of Threshold, imo.

Option #3: Peek (MVP)
pros:
-looks at opponent's hand. I can swear that this is a very good thing even against non-blue decks. You can know how to behave, say, against a unknown deck by Peeking them first turn; you can know how to spend your chants timewalking an opponent if you get that he plays, for ex., Chalice-Tomb decks or Discard; you can know which spells a Burn player holds in hand, allowing you to calculate how much you have to speed yourself.
And, most of all, you can get knowledge of a blue player's hand, which is a huge boost for you to trick them with your protections and manage to go off. It's a great card in Solidarity, i guess it can be as much as great in this deck too.
-Acts like a protection against blue decks, which won't be really happy to let you see their hands and will counter Peek. I bet there are players who'll FoW Peek, in attempt to hide their Stifle-Snares. That's where you smile, Chant them, and go off.
-Even against decks where you'd really don't mind seeing their hand (f.e., Enchantress), Peek is always a cantrip that makes you sculpt your hand quickly, and that card drawn by Peek may make the difference between, say, a turn 2 victory and a turn 3 one.
-"Combos" well with the other cantrips, and Mystical tutor.
slops
-It actually doesn't get rid of a counter or a CB, but for that you have 7 other protection spells.

Ok, so these were my thoughts about the possibility to turn the bounce spell into something more "synergic" with the straightforward nature of the deck. At the moment I'm testing Peek, and I have never been disappointed to see it in my hand; i consider it both the 9th cantrip, and the 8th piece of protection, in the way it acts against permission decks.
Of course you have to run the bounce spell if your meta packs troublesome permanents even g1, but thinking about it, which permanents can really be considered "troublesome" g1, ecept for CB?
Meddling Mage/True Believer/Gaddock Teeg aren't played Maindeck these days (except for some american player in Bryant's meta, ok, but they're a lot behind us..:laugh:). Chalice, in g1, against an unnknown deck is usually set at 1 , never at 0, making CoV useless anyway. Trinisphere shuts down completely the deck, ad I think it's difficult to remove it via CoV. The only option is to pray we survive enough to reach some mana and go Wish-->Spree.
Any other thing can be, more or less, played around. Oh, i was forgetting Nether Void, but well...

So, in conclusion, to me gaining time in a fast storm combo isn't necessarily better than playing a card that can either give information about the kind of oppo's deck and hate cards to face while comboing off, and a cantrip that gives us more cards, all in one. I hope we can discuss a bit about these options I showed above, particularly Peek, and also if you have other potential cards to discuss.

GreenOne

08-31-2009, 06:42 PM

You did not consider Pyroblast. It has the same probability of resolving through a CB, but instead destroys it. It buys time and destroy cursecatcher against merfolk, and counters opposing blue spells (not only counters but cantrips too). Frees one more SB slot. Works in a pinch against random Jace, MM, Vendillion. Imprint for red and can be played without target to get hellbent.

There's also Repeal, that bounces Chalice at zero and CB quite well, without taking too much dmg from AN. Has the same cantripping power of peek if you have some 0 cc acceleration and can be used as a little storm engine.

Bryant Cook

08-31-2009, 08:47 PM

I do not like any of those three. I'd much rather play the two Greenone mentioned if I had to play something besides Chain.

BreathWeapon

09-01-2009, 02:00 AM

Ok, I agree that a bounce spell with only 2 Mysticals was a bad choice since day 1, but why would you play any of those cards you mentioned over acceleration, protection etc? Even a singleton REB is probably way better than CoV, excluding random Stax pieces.

lorddotm

09-01-2009, 04:08 AM

I do not like any of those three. I'd much rather play the two Greenone mentioned if I had to play something besides Chain.

What is your current list, because I don't think that the one on the first post is it..

Piceli89

09-01-2009, 07:00 AM

I tried Pyroblast (i was the one who suggested it maindeck), and against non-blue decks it was obviouslt a totally dead card, if not to produce 1 extra storm count. For Repeal instead, if i want it to be a cantrip, i usually need a 0 cc artifact on my side to be dropped on the table..And on g1 Chalice is always set @1 not knowing what the opponent plays, and that means Repeal isn't that great against artifacts. The point about Peek is that what it does is always useful, in every MU, be it blue-based or not. Also, the ability to know which counters to fight through is really great, perhaps you're underestimating it, and it makes the card itself a threat for an opponent.
This to say that I have both tested Pyroblast and Repeal maindeck, and they didn't always behave greatly. Peek instead, seems to be a good utility cards. Of course g2 it gets normally sided out in favor of an anti-hate card, however.

BreathWeapon

09-01-2009, 02:15 PM

Peek seems really, really bad compared to a Duress or a Thought Seize, collecting information and discarding counters is much better than collecting information and cantripping.

andrew77

09-01-2009, 02:36 PM

I tried Pyroblast (i was the one who suggested it maindeck), and against non-blue decks it was obviouslt a totally dead card, if not to produce 1 extra storm count. For Repeal instead, if i want it to be a cantrip, i usually need a 0 cc artifact on my side to be dropped on the table..And on g1 Chalice is always set @1 not knowing what the opponent plays, and that means Repeal isn't that great against artifacts. The point about Peek is that what it does is always useful, in every MU, be it blue-based or not. Also, the ability to know which counters to fight through is really great, perhaps you're underestimating it, and it makes the card itself a threat for an opponent.
This to say that I have both tested Pyroblast and Repeal maindeck, and they didn't always behave greatly. Peek instead, seems to be a good utility cards. Of course g2 it gets normally sided out in favor of an anti-hate card, however.

PEEK IS TERRIBLE What it does is never good. All peek does is make you spend one mana to replace itself. God that is aweful. I mean decks like dredge don't even play street wraith, because cards that replace themselves are bad. You have no idea if you will draw something useful or not and it leads to bad decisions when it comes to mulligans, and in dredge the wraith not only replaces itself, but can give them another dredge.

Gigadrowse and extirpate are terrible too. How are we going to make use of gigadrowse? Sac lotus petal for mana? I mean seriously, even if we had access to lots of mana it does nothing to combat FoW, or daze. And extirpate??? What??? I don't understand this at all. Extirpate is a terrible card anyway, but we are a combo deck. I cannot ever imagine a situation when I would rather cast extirpate over thoughtseize.

Piceli89

09-01-2009, 03:40 PM

PEEK IS TERRIBLE What it does is never good. All peek does is make you spend one mana to replace itself. God that is aweful. I mean decks like dredge don't even play street wraith, because cards that replace themselves are bad. You have no idea if you will draw something useful or not and it leads to bad decisions when it comes to mulligans, and in dredge the wraith not only replaces itself, but can give them another dredge.

Gigadrowse and extirpate are terrible too. How are we going to make use of gigadrowse? Sac lotus petal for mana? I mean seriously, even if we had access to lots of mana it does nothing to combat FoW, or daze. And extirpate??? What??? I don't understand this at all. Extirpate is a terrible card anyway, but we are a combo deck. I cannot ever imagine a situation when I would rather cast extirpate over thoughtseize.

Gigadrowse could have been useful against tempo decks shuttin down the "mana" counters. For thoughtseize, if you're playing thoughtseize in TES, you're playing it bad. 2 lives is a big, big issue with Ad Nauseam and City of Brass. That's why personally i wouldn't never play 4 duress MD and a thoughtseize sb as a Wish target.
No need to be so nervous in any case, i was just throwing ideas about card that somehow could have been interesting. Sorry for having tried it, I'll wait until You in Your Majesty come out with the ultimate tech for TES. Just for the sake of knowing, I tested peek a bit and it can really be troublesome for blue decks, it makes pressure on them.
But I guess I'll return to Pyroblast, I didn't think to the possibility of smashing Cursecatcher and Merfolks seems to run rampant here by my parts too. Ty GreenOne for that tip.

lorddotm

09-02-2009, 04:50 AM

I have been testing with Cabal Ritual in the spot of CoV. Maybe thats awful, but it seems to make me a lot faster Game 1, then in game two I get to run more specific hate.

Krosan Grip; it has been super clunky. I usually I have to use a Dark Ritual when I cast it, any alternatives?
I don't think I would want to drop below 8 protection spells main, so maybe Cabal Therapy in the side as a Wish target, or is it just that bad in TES?

BreathWeapon

09-02-2009, 05:50 AM

For thoughtseize, if you're playing thoughtseize in TES, you're playing it bad. 2 lives is a big, big issue with Ad Nauseam and City of Brass. That's why personally i wouldn't never play 4 duress MD and a thoughtseize sb as a Wish target..

That is such a ridiculous logical fallacy, I could just as easily argue that decreasing your odds of discarding Counterbalance on the play/draw from SBing Duress is even more devastating than taking 2 damage from Thought Seize at your own discretion. As a wish target, it's always up to you whether or not you need to wish for Thought Seize, and if you have no other choice than 2 life is the least of your worries.

Seriously, even ANT variants run 4 MD,1 SB hardly matters. And I'd argue it's a lot better than the 1 Chain of Vapor for a whopping 2 Mystical Tutor that every one seems to be playing.

lorddotm

09-02-2009, 06:02 AM

That is such a ridiculous logical fallacy, I could just as easily argue that decreasing your odds of discarding Counterbalance on the play/draw from SBing Duress is even more devastating than taking 2 damage from Thought Seize at your own discretion. As a wish target, it's always up to you whether or not you need to wish for Thought Seize, and if you have no other choice than 2 life is the least of your worries.

Seriously, even ANT variants run 4 MD,1 SB hardly matters. And I'd argue it's a lot better than the 1 Chain of Vapor for a whopping 2 Mystical Tutor that every one seems to be playing.

Personally not a huge fan of Mystical Tutor without Top. If there was another 2CC tutor that brought cards we wanted to out hands, then it would be played, the problem is, there isn't. The only other card that could work would be Cunning Wish, which costs 3 (admittedly it does work wonders with AdN and Cabal Rituals) which is 1 too much.

BreathWeapon

09-02-2009, 07:03 AM

Personally not a huge fan of Mystical Tutor without Top. If there was another 2CC tutor that brought cards we wanted to out hands, then it would be played, the problem is, there isn't. The only other card that could work would be Cunning Wish, which costs 3 (admittedly it does work wonders with AdN and Cabal Rituals) which is 1 too much.

M.Tutor isn't really necessary for threat density, none of the Pre-AdN lists bothered with sub-par tutors for additional threats, and I'm not really sure why people feel the need to do so now. M.Tutor is a vestigial organ of passed LED/AdN goodness, it needs to evolve out of the list IMO.

lorddotm

09-02-2009, 07:10 AM

M.Tutor isn't really necessary for threat density, none of the Pre-AdN lists bothered with sub-par tutors for additional threats, and I'm not really sure why people feel the need to do so now. M.Tutor is a vestigial organ of passed LED/AdN goodness, it needs to evolve out of the list IMO.

What do you think should replace the Mysticals/CoV then?

I'm going to guess since you aren't a fan of Mystical, you aren't a huge fan of Cunning Wish as a possible replacement, I've been testing it, and the ability to AdN at someone's end step is pretty awesome.

BreathWeapon

09-02-2009, 07:23 AM

What do you think should replace the Mysticals/CoV then?

I'm going to guess since you aren't a fan of Mystical, you aren't a huge fan of Cunning Wish as a possible replacement, I've been testing it, and the ability to AdN at someone's end step is pretty awesome.

I've tried Cunning Wish off and on, the problem tho' is it's a 2x that stretches the SB too far, and at 3cc it's a little too costly for wishing for answers (altho' beneficial when facing CB). Personally, I just run more acceleration - either Simian Spirit Guide or Tinder Wall. Simian Spirit Guide being my love/hate choice, you increase your wins off of Diminishing Returns but decrease your wins off of Ad Nauseam in theory, but in practice just being flat out the 3rd best non-artifiact accelerant, initial mana source and Daze counter probably wins more games than its 3cc loses. It's also pretty invaluable with Shattering Spree, which I've been 4xing lately do to a rise in Green Chalice Aggro.

lorddotm

09-02-2009, 07:37 AM

I've tried Cunning Wish off and on, the problem tho' is it's a 2x that stretches the SB too far, and at 3cc it's a little too costly for wishing for answers (altho' beneficial when facing CB). Personally, I just run more acceleration - either Simian Spirit Guide or Tinder Wall. Simian Spirit Guide being my love/hate choice, you increase your wins off of Diminishing Returns but decrease your wins off of Ad Nauseam in theory, but in practice just being flat out the 3rd best non-artifiact accelerant, initial mana source and Daze counter probably wins more games than its 3cc loses. It's also pretty invaluable with Shattering Spree, which I've been 4xing lately do to a rise in Green Chalice Aggro.

The only change I've made to my sideboard because of Cunning is -1 Diminishing Returns, -1 Pyroblast +1 Silence +1 Ad Nauseam. Against control decks, it EoT fetches answers like Krosan Grip, Chant, or Pyroblast; or it fetches acceleration in the form of Cabal Ritual; or it fetches the engine that is AdNauseam.

That is such a ridiculous logical fallacy, I could just as easily argue that decreasing your odds of discarding Counterbalance on the play/draw from SBing Duress is even more devastating than taking 2 damage from Thought Seize at your own discretion. As a wish target, it's always up to you whether or not you need to wish for Thought Seize, and if you have no other choice than 2 life is the least of your worries.

Seriously, even ANT variants run 4 MD,1 SB hardly matters. And I'd argue it's a lot better than the 1 Chain of Vapor for a whopping 2 Mystical Tutor that every one seems to be playing.

You can say that but I'm still not convinced. If you play Pyroblast instead of the 4th Duress (which remains in the sb)l, you have chances to counter or destroy it, not to mention pyroblast can do lots of other things. It's not always possible to discard Counterbalance 1st turn, because there's something called Brainstorm which lets them hide it if we're on the draw or to get it from the top as well.
About Mystical tutors: even if I dislike their slowness and C-Disadvantage too, I think such a versatile card is required in this deck. I mean, you won't always open perfect hands, and often you're lacking for a tutor or a protection piece. That's were Mystical shines. If you manage to get perfect hands exclusively by cantrips, I'm happy for you, but this sadly doesn't happen to me too. Even without the LED+AdN trick, it's still a necessity in this deck, since it pretty much increases the threat density too, now that most of us play with a single AdN. And if you're replacin them with more accels, I really think you'll be more likely to open hands with shittons of mana, 1 piece of protection and a bomb/tutor missing.
And another thing i can't get of your reasoning is why then standard ANT lists runs 4 Mysticals if they suck so much as you say, but qualify for a DTB and put up several top8s. I mean, they don't even run top, and they're playing the same 8 cantrips as us ! Are they fool?

Bryant Cook

09-02-2009, 09:20 AM

Y
And another thing i can't get of your reasoning is why then standard ANT lists runs 4 Mysticals if they suck so much as you say, but qualify for a DTB and put up several top8s. I mean, they don't even run top, and they're playing the same 8 cantrips as us ! Are they fool?

I'm not really disagreeing with you, because well, I don't ever want to be on Breathweapon's side of an argument. But... they lack the four additional tutors in Burning Wish to be fair.

NQN

09-02-2009, 10:03 AM

Hi there, I was playing TES back then when AN wasn´t printed with some succes and then switched to blue based conrol.
Now I wanted to start playing stormcombo again and therefor picked picellis list and started testing. After some games I was quite shocked: The deck felt waaay slower then in the past and therefor wasn´t really more consistent...
Is it just me not playing the deck well anymore (I think I still do) or is it a fact that the deck just lost some speed (AND consistency?o0)?

NQN

BreathWeapon

09-02-2009, 10:07 AM

M.Tutor in AnT and M.Tutor in TES can't be compared, AnT is prepared with M.Tutor and Top to head into the middle/end game with card selection, where TES is concerned with the early game and racing the opponent's threats before they come online. One turn gives the opponent Spellsnare, two turns gives the opponent Counterbalance etc. and those are serious issues for TES. AnT isn't as susceptible to Spellsnare or Counterbalance as TES, M.Tutor is a shuffling effect for Top and Burning Wish doesn't really work for AnT because the amount of acceleration is too low and the number of lands is too high for Diminishing Returns and Empty the Warrens to be really feasible. Basically, AnT gets more out of M.Tutor than TES does, and AnT doesn't really have any other choice but to run M.Tutor any way.

The whole "Brainstorm argument" is totally moot, you're maximizing your odds of discarding a Counterbalance by upping your Duress whether they have Brainstorm or not. I wasn't comparing Duress vs Pyroblast, if you want to run Pyroblast go for it - I recommended it over Chain of Vapor myself. What I was getting at is 4 MD Duress and 1 SB Thought Seize isn't as "horribly bad" as you say it is.

I don't have anything bad to say about AnT and M.Tutor in that deck either, but you can't really compare M.Tutor in AnT and TES like the card translates from one deck to another seamlessly. Frankly, I think M.Tutor in TES is just a crutch for people who can't mulligan well with TES, and a bounce spell for 2 M.Tutors just blows really hard.

Piceli89

09-02-2009, 10:45 AM

Hi there, I was playing TES back then when AN wasn´t printed with some succes and then switched to blue based conrol.
Now I wanted to start playing stormcombo again and therefor picked picellis list and started testing. After some games I was quite shocked: The deck felt waaay slower then in the past and therefor wasn´t really more consistent...
Is it just me not playing the deck well anymore (I think I still do) or is it a fact that the deck just lost some speed (AND consistency?o0)?

NQN

Ad Nauseam was printed, so the deck had to change a lot its structure to adequately support it. To me, after having tried a bit the olderst version of TES, this version (call it "Next Level TES" or as you want it) is way more better. It may lose a bit of its eplosiveness and speed it used to have, but it gains a lot in terms of consistency, either by having 8 cantrips, not having lands that suck any more, and with AdN itself. Perhaps it began a bit harder to pilot, for that issue ask Bryant.
COunterbalance was also printed, so we had to put slots to face it.
Ah, I'd also recommend NOT to test it on Mws, because you'll open shitty hands with 5 lands and 2 cards for a good %s of time. We all know how much shitty are MWS' shuffling algorhytms, for that.

@BreathWeapon: let's suppose that, for a moment, I give you reason and I'd want to cut Mystical Tutor out of the deck. I'm very curious about what you'd stick in my list instead of of the 2 MTs. I asked this question to myself some times too, and I wasn't able to give the name of a good replacement. I just know that with 7 tutors, 1 AdN, 1 Igg, 1 Tendrils and despites the 8 cantrips, I still have times when i open hands with shittons of accels or protections + lands only. Lowering the threat density furtherly by cutting 2 Tutors for 2 Accels to me is compromising the deck's capability of drawing a "balanced" hand.
One thing you could answer me is to do 8 tutors MD. Nope, the Infernal Tutor in the sideboard is something amazing, it enables gorgeous ways to add lots of storm when i have lots of mana + Wish.
Then,what to put in ? My latest list, for reference:

Bryant: yes, but Burning Wish can't directly grab AdN or Chant.. I understand the fact that they arguably wouldn't play anything in replacement of Mystical Tutor because it's really good with shuffling effects and top (which nomal ANT don't run usually, btw, but let's assume it),ecc ecc..And most of all because those 3 colours don't offer nothing better, but MT is still a good way to fetch AdN, a thing that still works without fetches and top and that BWish can't do. Without Mystical, we'd be forced to get AdN either by lucksacking it with a cantrip or a topdeck, or to get it by Infernal Tutor. But this last option usually requires instant accel + led, and if you haveinstant accell +leds and IT you probably want to off via IGG.

BreathWeapon

09-02-2009, 12:04 PM

Honestly, I think you're list is too far off from mine to really make direct substitutions. The SB Infernal Tutor is win more, and you're superficially reducing your threat density and in return creating an artificial dependency on M.Tutor to the point where you could never cut it from your list regardless.

I run more or less the OP list -IGG, -CoV, -2 M.Tutor and -1 Land for +4 SSG and +1 Duress (all golden lands too).

NQN

09-02-2009, 01:41 PM

It´s not that I played Storm when CB wasn´t printed :D I made the same experience with MWS and totaly gave it up for TES past then ;) Well, I think Breathweapons lists is a list I´d like more...But first I´ll try to get some results with NLS :)

lorddotm

09-02-2009, 03:29 PM

Honestly, I think you're list is too far off from mine to really make direct substitutions. The SB Infernal Tutor is win more, and you're superficially reducing your threat density and in return creating an artificial dependency on M.Tutor to the point where you could never cut it from your list regardless.

I run more or less the OP list -IGG, -CoV, -2 M.Tutor and -1 Land for +4 SSG and +1 Duress (all golden lands too).

How do you not just die to AdN?

BreathWeapon

09-02-2009, 05:40 PM

How do you not just die to AdN?

If you resolve your AdN .5 Turns faster, you have more life to draw cards. If you have more initial mana sources, you don't have to draw as many cards to win. It's really not that bad, if you compare 4 SSG to the second Ad Nauseam and Ill Gotten Gains it's about dead even avg CC and less spikey altogether.

Piceli89

09-02-2009, 07:08 PM

If you resolve your AdN .5 Turns faster, you have more life to draw cards. If you have more initial mana sources, you don't have to draw as many cards to win. It's really not that bad, if you compare 4 SSG to the second Ad Nauseam and Ill Gotten Gains it's about dead even avg CC and less spikey altogether.

And what about if you face a blue deck (say, tempo threshold), don't manage to go off immediately, and get some bolts/goyf-goose swings? You'll start from a medium qty of life flipping cards by AdN, and i wouldn't be that quiet knowing i can receive 4 potential bolts at each flip. Not to mention if you're running somethin like Forbidden Orchard and you're basically helping your opponent in putting you down at each cantrip/tutor you make in the setup turns.

And most of all, cutting Ill-Gotten Gains Maindeck is denying what TES was built for, flexibility in front of any situation.

lorddotm

09-03-2009, 09:57 PM

There is going to be one card with Ritual in it's name. Here is for a functional reprint of Dark Ritual.

BreathWeapon

09-03-2009, 11:26 PM

And what about if you face a blue deck (say, tempo threshold), don't manage to go off immediately, and get some bolts/goyf-goose swings? You'll start from a medium qty of life flipping cards by AdN, and i wouldn't be that quiet knowing i can receive 4 potential bolts at each flip. Not to mention if you're running somethin like Forbidden Orchard and you're basically helping your opponent in putting you down at each cantrip/tutor you make in the setup turns.

And most of all, cutting Ill-Gotten Gains Maindeck is denying what TES was built for, flexibility in front of any situation.

1) Cutting Ill-Gotten Gains doesn't decrease TES's flexibility, it increases TES's mana cost for that flexibility while reducing it's "dead draws." On the one hand, you think it's ok to SB Infernal Tutor, which reduces your threat density and either costs the same as Infernal Tutor -> Burning Wish -> Ill Gotten Gains or costs more than Infernal Tutor -> Burning Wish -> Diminishing Returns, but you don't think it's ok to cut the MD Ill Gotten Gains. This position baffles me, because SBing Infernal Tutor is completely unnecessary, while cutting MD Ill Gotten Gains is more efficient and is more skillful because it requires the TES pilot to be able to judge when he has sufficient life for Ad Nauseam and when he should just "roll the dice" on Diminishing Returns or wait for Ill Gotten Gains.

What you don't seem to really get is that in the situations where you can't cast Ad Nauseam, enough turns have past for you to accumulate the mana to cast the IT->BW->IGG chain or the more marginal IT->BW->D.Returns chain (Especially if you're running either Simian Spirit Guide or Tinder Wall).

2) Simian Spirit Guide is a love/hate card, while it decreases the wins off of Ad Nauseam, it increases the wins off of Diminishing Returns while being the strongest "missing" accelerant in the deck. Frankly, I think the number of games I lose to flipping Simian Spirit Guide is less than the number of games I win by playing Simian Spirit Guide. The problem is that most people only remember the times they die to its CC instead of the times they win the game off of him, so most people fail to put in the shear number of games to test the card properly.

3) It could all just be a question of risk tolerance. For whatever reason, the whole Ill Gotten Gains, 2 Mystical Tutor and 1 Chain of Vapor configurations is seriously slowing down TES in favor of "risk aversion." Personally, I think this "risk aversion" is antithetical to TES' philosophy, where it's speed is what dodges the hate instead of it's ability to sit on Top or Mystical for solutions.

Oh shit is right. Not sure exactly what it does, exile? like in the GY?

lorddotm

09-04-2009, 04:03 AM

Oh shit is right. Not sure exactly what it does, exile? like in the GY?

It counters all the cards, but it doesn't actually counter, it removes them from the game off the stack so they can never resolve.

This means that it can counter every copy, and the original made by storm.

flrn

09-04-2009, 04:15 AM

It counters all the cards, but it doesn't actually counter, it removes them from the game off the stack so they can never resolve.

This means that it can counter every copy, and the original made by storm.

Just makes it mandatory to play Orim´s Chant to protect your combo.

lorddotm

09-04-2009, 04:18 AM

Just makes it mandatory to play Orim´s Chant to protect your combo.

Against every single deck in the format...

I guess now would be the correct time to move to 8Chant.dec?

GreenOne

09-04-2009, 04:34 AM

Let's first see if this thing is going to get played in non-blue SBs.

It's likely not to get played in blue decks, cause they usually don't need to specifically devote SB spaces at the combo matchup.

It will probably get some hype for some time, like extirpate, and then get out of the SBs.
Interesting card for vintage, though.

lorddotm

09-04-2009, 04:35 AM

Let's first see if this thing is going to get played in non-blue SBs.

It's likely not to get played in blue decks, cause they usually don't need to specifically devote SB spaces at the combo matchup.

It will probably get some hype for some time, like extirpate, and then get out of the SBs.
Interesting card for vintage, though.

It does a good job of hosing the counter wars.

GreenOne

09-04-2009, 04:45 AM

It does a good job of hosing the counter wars.
Don't believe so:
Opp: Broken spell
You: Counter
Opp: Counter
You: Counter
Opp: Counter
You: Finally I can play this shit for free!

How often is this going to happen? If there are no cantrips involved it's totally unplayable in normal game circumstances. If there is one cantrip involved it's just quite unlikely (with you having this+another counter, and the opponent playing cantrip+spell+counter).

How often is this going to happen? If there are no cantrips involved it's totally unplayable in normal game circumstances. If there is one cantrip involved it's just quite unlikely (with you having this+another counter, and the opponent playing cantrip+spell+counter).

Fair enough lol. When I first read it I thought it said if three spells were played this turn.

Piceli89

09-04-2009, 05:46 AM

Let's first see if this thing is going to get played in non-blue SBs.

It's likely not to get played in blue decks, cause they usually don't need to specifically devote SB spaces at the combo matchup.

It will probably get some hype for some time, like extirpate, and then get out of the SBs.
Interesting card for vintage, though.

I hope so. I think that Legacy is already quite full of answers to Storm Combo, and the ones non -blue decks are playing are way more synergic with their style of playing. I mean, Zoo would difficultly play this as a sb answer to Combo, since Gaddock Teeg still shuts down our bombs but beats for 2 too. The only real application I'd see is this spell being played by something like..Elves, who don't have any answer to us. This would make us keeep Chant in and play , spending 1 mana more when going off, and that's not good.
But i hope clever Elves or GreenStompy players will pack Chalice or Thorn of Ametyst rather than that thing.

Fucking Wizards in any case, before the AdN nerfing and now this shit being printed. Seems they all want us to play Aggro-Control ( not that they care about legacy.. but I think this card will be teh serious sb hate card towards TEPS in Extended).

GreenOne

09-04-2009, 06:05 AM

(I think this card will be teh serious sb hate card towards TEPS in Extended).
What? Will storm be present in the next extended season? I thought TEPS was dead without Desire and Tendrils.

Piceli89

09-04-2009, 06:12 AM

What? Will storm be present in the next extended season? I thought TEPS was dead without Desire and Tendrils.

I was referring to these days. But in each case, in Ext the possibility of new types of storm combo (if they'll ever be built since the lack of Tendrils) will be smothered by this card. Not that I care really much about Ext, but i have to get out my frustration for this card..
But stil, let's hope it won't touch Legacy. It would be a bad thing to keep after sb cards that you normally side out against certain MUs because of the possibility of this shit coming up and ruining your plans.

BreathWeapon

09-04-2009, 06:15 AM

That's a rather aggravating SB card, now we're forced to Duress/Orim's Chant before we go off vs decks that wouldn't otherwise have non-permanent answers to Storm.

It's really narrow, but quite the ball buster.

lorddotm

09-04-2009, 12:39 PM

This card is pretty sick against us, but there are a lot of very sick cards against us, so we're going to have to see if this is one of the top ones.

fearphage

09-05-2009, 03:59 AM

This is a pretty strong control card if it gets played. And goblins got a nice shot in the arm (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=94705&d=1252037056). Does that mean we should expect a new ritual, protection spell or some other combo piece?

Piceli89

09-05-2009, 07:26 AM

This is a pretty strong control card if it gets played. And goblins got a nice shot in the arm (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=94705&d=1252037056). Does that mean we should expect a new ritual, protection spell or some other combo piece?

No, we won't. That card was one of the fews "specifically designed for Eternal formats", as it was said. And its purpose is to balance the impossibility by certain decks to fight a turn 1-2 Storm in their face. And also, i assume, the busted-ness of Ad Nauseam, print recently.
Of course at the modic price of being a mythic rare, i.e. at least 15 dollars - and more if it will be played. Of course always a good economic advantage, for them.
It's incredible how much WoTc seems to hate Storm combo. It seems they're following the thought of the noobs who complain " bahh bahh fucking storm it's unfair " and then go to play CounterTop because they can't do anything but "flip , counter, flip, counter, lawl i own ya n00b!!".
Sad times..

Bryant Cook

09-05-2009, 10:24 AM

This is a pretty strong control card if it gets played. And goblins got a nice shot in the arm (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=94705&d=1252037056). Does that mean we should expect a new ritual, protection spell or some other combo piece?

I hope so, I'd like to cut the Mystical/Chain slot for a decent ritual.

BR
Sorcery

Add RRBB

that card would be BALLER.

As for the new counter, I don't think it will see much play. It seems more like an extended answer than a Legacy one.

JeroenC

09-05-2009, 12:01 PM

Meh. Odds are we ain't ever getting B rituals anymore. Those are all R now. :(

tsabo_tavoc

09-05-2009, 05:17 PM

I hope so, I'd like to cut the Mystical/Chain slot for a decent ritual.

I run more or less the OP list -IGG, -CoV, -2 M.Tutor and -1 Land for +4 SSG and +1 Duress (all golden lands too).

It's a pleasure to notice that your great minds start to converge.:wink:

Bane of the Living

09-05-2009, 06:16 PM

No, we won't. That card was one of the fews "specifically designed for Eternal formats", as it was said. And its purpose is to balance the impossibility by certain decks to fight a turn 1-2 Storm in their face. And also, i assume, the busted-ness of Ad Nauseam, print recently.
Of course at the modic price of being a mythic rare, i.e. at least 15 dollars - and more if it will be played. Of course always a good economic advantage, for them.
It's incredible how much WoTc seems to hate Storm combo. It seems they're following the thought of the noobs who complain " bahh bahh fucking storm it's unfair " and then go to play CounterTop because they can't do anything but "flip , counter, flip, counter, lawl i own ya n00b!!".
Sad times..

Well since competitive magic normally doesn't have anything to do with legacy it is true that more cards are printed with standard and extended in mind. That said it doesn't mean they don't throw us a bone now and then. Here in Zendikar there seems to be a whole skeleton.

Counterbalance combo got nurfed in extended when they took out Top. I figure they like the combo and still want it played somewhere. It's not good enough for Vintage because of the radical mana costs and presence of Mana Drain. Storm combo was recognized as a flaw much later than it's development. They didn't realize how prevailent it would make combination decks, and how immune to counter strategies it would create them.

It is a fact that wizards fixes those mistakes, whether or not it be far later than we wish. (Kataki WHERE WERE YOU!!??) Mindbreak Trap is literally the card that's been posted on this site as a fake card for years! We've always been waiting for this and now it's happened. Welcome to all decks blue or not.

fearphage

09-06-2009, 03:37 AM

Counterbalance combo got nurfed in extended when they took out Top. I figure they like the combo and still want it played somewhere.Top got banned because of time constraints allegedly not because it was destroying combo players with Counterbalance.

Ozymandias

09-06-2009, 04:28 AM

Yeah, TEPS could go off around a CB/Top on the table because it had nonspell accell (Invasion saclands) and expensive accel (channel the suns, Seething song). Same goes for Ideal.

Bryant Cook

09-06-2009, 01:02 PM

Glad to see we're still talking about irrelevance.

I've been debating cutting the Mystical/Chain package. However, I want to add something better (mana? land? no idea) to the deck. I know I don't want cabal ritual and Tinder wall, to a lesser extent SSG. I'm really hoping this new set gives us something worth playing.

But doing this would force me to change my sideboard. Since the Mystical targets would have to leave. I think I'd want to either overload on artifact hate or spread it out and include Gaddeck Teeg kill in Deathmarks (1-2).

lorddotm

09-06-2009, 01:18 PM

Glad to see we're still talking about irrelevance.

I've been debating cutting the Mystical/Chain package. However, I want to add something better (mana? land? no idea) to the deck. I know I don't want cabal ritual and Tinder wall, to a lesser extent SSG. I'm really hoping this new set gives us something worth playing.

But doing this would force me to change my sideboard. Since the Mystical targets would have to leave. I think I'd want to either overload on artifact hate or spread it out and include Gaddeck Teeg kill in Deathmarks (1-2).

I agree with you, but maybe adding in some Cabal Rituals is right?

Bryant Cook

09-06-2009, 02:26 PM

Cabal is always my first card boarded out because it's weak. Where I don't board out Mysticals because they're very versatile and can be very strong. I find cabal is only good when we're already winning via Nauseam.

Piceli89

09-06-2009, 02:42 PM

But still, at the moment there's nothing valid that can make the switch with Mysticals, which are a necessity for the flesibility of the deck. Atm they're pretty much uncuttable, because there isn't anything better than them. Pretty obvious statement, but the deck's in a situation of stasis.

BreathWeapon

09-07-2009, 02:17 AM

But still, at the moment there's nothing valid that can make the switch with Mysticals, which are a necessity for the flesibility of the deck. Atm they're pretty much uncuttable, because there isn't anything better than them. Pretty obvious statement, but the deck's in a situation of stasis.

I really, really disagree, you're making Mystical Tutor out to be a necessity when their not. If you weren't SBing your Infernal Tutor, running 12 lands, running dual lands etc. you'd see Mystical Tutor is filler at best. Even the "sub-optimal" accelerants are reasonable for a straight up swap.

GreenOne

09-07-2009, 03:54 AM

Am I the only one that wants a tutor effect for that slot?
I'm running 4 IT MD, but still seems to me that 10 tutors are optimal for the deck, especially if tutors can find acceleration too. I'd not swap Mysticals for acceleration: I like the post SB tutorable cards, and it's the best 3rd tutor the deck has access too. If they print a better tutor or a broken acceleration (sure better than Tinder Wall) I'm going to play that, but right now I like the 2x Mystical package (and I'm not playing with MD bounce).