The following exchange between former New Jersey governors Brendan T. Byrne and Tom Kean took place in a teleconference late last month before Kean's departure for a business trip to Africa.

Q. How well, in your estimation, is the school construction program proceeding?

BYRNE: We're seeing elaborate spending programs in the Abbott districts because it's somebody else's money. Cities like Newark and Jersey City are not counting the in-lieu-of-taxes money they're getting on real estate deals for school purposes. So it's a complete free ride, and they're spending like they know it.

KEAN: We've spent $200 million on one school in Union City. That's more than the entire endowments of most universities. That's obscene. It's taxpayer money. It's got to be repaid at some point. It was an open scandal when they spent the first school construction money. Nobody's in jail from the first go-around, and now here we go again.

BYRNE: And the court tells us we have to spend the money, but it takes no responsibility for whether we have it or how we raise it.

KEAN: Well, as I've said before, to have major policy set by judges who have neither expertise nor mandates set by the people of the state is wrong. Not only school construction but Mount Laurel, which is turning the state into a big urban sprawl.

BYRNE: I'm beginning to think that we ought to rethink our housing problem and our mandates for low-income housing everywhere. Because it's nice to have communities which have a little bit of difference to them.

KEAN: Open space is important. Planning is important. And to allow years of planning to be ignored and environmental considerations to be overridden is bad policy. The Legislature ought to take that in hand, stop putting patchwork measures on a bad law and rewrite the whole damned thing. Where the poorest people in the state live and need jobs is where the housing should be. And now we're developing parkland for houses, most of which are out of reach of those in the cities. It's a huge gift for the builders that should be re-examined.

BYRNE: Joe Weintraub, after he retired as chief justice, told me the concept for Mount Laurel was this: If Ford Motor Co. comes into Mahwah and builds a plant, the people of Mahwah should take some responsibility for building housing. That's the example he gave me. And that's a long way from where we are today.

KEAN: I have no problem with Weintraub's philosophy, but as we speak, the governor is about to sign a bill to further implement the Mount Laurel decision by overriding zoning. That's going to hurt the state. It's going to turn the state into one large strip mall.

BYRNE: Low-cost housing in Essex Fells is an oxymoron — and should be. What we really need is for people to start thinking about what we really want New Jersey to look like and not what the court is ordering.

KEAN: And if you do that, you look at the state on a regional basis, not small town by small town or city by city.

Q. Given the current situation with gasoline prices, should we consider reinstituting the 55-mph speed limit?

BYRNE: It's not a bad idea. We know people will exceed the speed limit, but at least it gives us a standard. With a 65-miles-per-hour speed limit, you feel okay going 75. At 55, you'd get uncomfortable going over 65.

KEAN: There's no question it would save thousands if not millions of gallons of gas. It might even save a few lives, so why not?

Q. Do you see any feasible way of privatizing part of the Turnpike?

BYRNE: You're dealing with a state that wants everything and wants to pay for nothing. I have not seen any revenue-raising proposal which has any real public support. We keep saying no to everything, we keep issuing more bonds and we keep not reducing debt service but increasing it. Really, the state is headed for disaster. And that's fine with everybody because it isn't happening this year.

KEAN: The answer is yes, we can privatize part of the Turnpike or part of the Parkway. The question is should we do it, and the answer to that is probably no. Beyond that, I say amen to everything you said.

Q: Have you seen anything that particularly troubles or encourages you so far about the tone of the presidential campaign?

KEAN: We're not really in the campaign yet, so we won't know what it's like until after the conventions. We've got a ways to go until then. We'll get continual blips when surrogates of both sides make misstatements, but that's not important. The important things come later.

BYRNE: McCain had an image of being above dirty politics. If he were able to keep that image, it would be a great advantage to him, but he's slipping and sliding a little bit.

KEAN: I think McCain's doing just fine. The slipping and sliding is coming from the other side. Barack Obama totally reversed himself on campaign financing, and he's done some slipping and sliding on other issues, so we'll have to see where he ends up.