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Understanding Hebrew Roots

1votes

Started by
JohnDB
, Jan 13 2014 02:15 PM

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I was one the the biggest (mouthed) proponents to what I deemed "Orthodoxy" until I read the Bible through several times... and this dogged theme throughout the Bible of a relationship between God and his people Israel kept popping up even through the end times and into eternity. Years of studying apologetics and hermeneutics did not change this. And when I studied the Bible to be able top witness to unbelieving Jewish people (using primarily the OT which was in effect the only Bible the early Church actually had at the time) I discovered the spiritual connection between Church and Israel. I set out to disprove this in the NT and the the fuller revelation of both but could not. It only reiterated what tradition and even some of my own past arrogance tried desperately to believe was false.

Romans 2:28-29 (NASB95)
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

which includes both males and females free slave...

Galatians 3:28 (NASB95)
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

JohnDB

Posted 13 January 2014 - 02:33 PM

JohnDB

Senior Member

Senior Member

2,038 posts

Jeremiah 31:31-34 (NASB95)
31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord.
33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 “They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

Qnts2

Posted 13 January 2014 - 02:43 PM

Qnts2

Senior Member

Senior Member

1,720 posts

Replacement theology is different then Hebrew roots theology. Most who subscribe to Hebrew roots theology fall under Two House, British Israelism, like Herbert W. Armstrong. This group believes that some or all Christians are actually members of the so-called 10 lost tribes, who when scattered somehow developed amnesia and forgot that they are actually descendents of Israel.

Replacement theology teaches that Christians have replaced physical Israel and are now Spiritual Israel, and receive all of the positive promises and blessings from God to Israel while physical Israel gets to keep the curses.

Jewish roots is what is taught in mainstream Messianic Judaism which shows the Jewishness of Jesus, and the Jewish expressions and understanding of the law, taught by Jesus and the Jewish apostles.

JohnDB

Posted 13 January 2014 - 02:56 PM

JohnDB

Senior Member

Senior Member

2,038 posts

Replacement theology is different then Hebrew roots theology. Most who subscribe to Hebrew roots theology fall under Two House, British Israelism, like Herbert W. Armstrong. This group believes that some or all Christians are actually members of the so-called 10 lost tribes, who when scattered somehow developed amnesia and forgot that they are actually descendents of Israel.

Replacement theology teaches that Christians have replaced physical Israel and are now Spiritual Israel, and receive all of the positive promises and blessings from God to Israel while physical Israel gets to keep the curses.

Jewish roots is what is taught in mainstream Messianic Judaism which shows the Jewishness of Jesus, and the Jewish expressions and understanding of the law, taught by Jesus and the Jewish apostles.

What I have been showing from scripture is not replacement theology. Nor is it British Israelism / Armstrongism etc.

I have shown this is a distinction within the House of Israel going back as far as Deuteronomy 10:16 (which apparently Paul was referring to in Romans 2:28-29) as to the physical Jew versus the spiritual Jew. This being also the reason for the natural Olive branches remaining on the Olive tree of being cut off (with the possibility to be grafted back in of course if they do not persist in unbelief).

So I have been teaching Israeli theology. Inclusive theology not replacement theology.

In a real sense the tradition-based Church teaches replacement theology does it not? Israel come to Church. I read the Bible saying to both Jewish born and Gentile born come to Spirit Israel.

Qnts2

Posted 13 January 2014 - 03:32 PM

Qnts2

Senior Member

Senior Member

1,720 posts

Replacement theology is different then Hebrew roots theology. Most who subscribe to Hebrew roots theology fall under Two House, British Israelism, like Herbert W. Armstrong. This group believes that some or all Christians are actually members of the so-called 10 lost tribes, who when scattered somehow developed amnesia and forgot that they are actually descendents of Israel.

Replacement theology teaches that Christians have replaced physical Israel and are now Spiritual Israel, and receive all of the positive promises and blessings from God to Israel while physical Israel gets to keep the curses.

Jewish roots is what is taught in mainstream Messianic Judaism which shows the Jewishness of Jesus, and the Jewish expressions and understanding of the law, taught by Jesus and the Jewish apostles.

What I have been showing from scripture is not replacement theology. Nor is it British Israelism / Armstrongism etc.

I have shown this is a distinction within the House of Israel going back as far as Deuteronomy 10:16 (which apparently Paul was referring to in Romans 2:28-29) as to the physical Jew versus the spiritual Jew. This being also the reason for the natural Olive branches remaining on the Olive tree of being cut off (with the possibility to be grafted back in of course if they do not persist in unbelief).

So I have been teaching Israeli theology. Inclusive theology not replacement theology.

In a real sense the tradition-based Church teaches replacement theology does it not? Israel come to Church. I read the Bible saying to both Jewish born and Gentile born come to Spirit Israel.

Not replacement theology on my part in the least.

The Gentiles (church) becoming 'spiritual Israel' is the very basis of replacement theology.

In reality, the church is a new thing, under a new covenant. Israel is still Israel and Gentiles are still Gentiles, and the church is born again people made into a new creation, called in OT prophesy, a foolish nation, because it is made up of diverse people which are not a nation. Spiritually, believers are of a different spirit then non-believers. Believers are one in spirit, but Israel is a nation of people of common descent from Jacob. It is the difference in Spirit, being indwelt by the Holy Spirit which marks the difference between believers and non-believers. The church does not become a part of Israel, as Israel is mostly at this time, non-believers, broken off branches. If you claim that Gentiles are grafted into Israel, then Gentiles are grafted into mostly broken off branches. That is not true.

1 Cor 10:32 differentiates Jews, Gentiles and the church of God.

1 Cor 10:32

Give no offense either to Jews or to Gentiles or to the church of God;

Since Israel/Jacob is a physical linage and Gentile literally means 'not Jewish', when born again, Gentiles do not become Jews/Israel.

Prophesy about the church states that the church will be made up of people from diverse nations, to provoke Israel to jealousy. Gentiles claiming to be Israel sounds more like Gentiles being jealous of Israel.

Deut 32:21 They have made Me jealous with what is not God; They have provoked Me to anger with their idols. So I will make them jealous with those who are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation,

I think the thing which bothers me the most about replacement theology

FresnoJoe

Posted 13 January 2014 - 05:16 PM

FresnoJoe

Royal Member

Worthy Watchman

44,815 posts

I read the Bible saying to both Jewish born and Gentile born come to Spirit Israel.

Not replacement theology on my part in the least.

~

Beloved

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. Zechariah 12:10

Spiritual Israel?

In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;

The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;

All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.Zechariah 12:11-14

The Physical Jesus

For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.2 John 1:7

For The Physical Throne

He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:Luke 1:32

In The Physical City Of Dave

The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel. So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.Joel 3:16-17

For The Physical Peoples

The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid.

Sing, O daughter of Zion; shout, O Israel; be glad and rejoice with all the heart, O daughter of Jerusalem. The LORD hath taken away thy judgments, he hath cast out thine enemy: the king of Israel, even the LORD, is in the midst of thee: thou shalt not see evil any more.

In that day it shall be said to Jerusalem, Fear thou not: and to Zion, Let not thine hands be slack. The LORD thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing.Zephaniah 3:13-17

Of Israel

When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.Acts 1:6-7

~

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:
The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them.Numbers 6:24-27

FresnoJoe

Posted 13 January 2014 - 07:00 PM

I grant their premise that Israel is the suffering servant. To their delight.

Then I say we need to determine which Israel is the suffering servant for there are several.

Israel the people.

Israel the patriarch.

Israel the Northern Kingdom.

Israel the modern state.

And one more.

Israel is a combination of the words YISH SARAR ELOHIYM.

He is Prince of God.

Who is the ultimate Prince of God?

So

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.Isaiah 9:1

Amen

If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.2 Chronicles 7:14

And Thus

Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.Psalms 2:1-3

We Daily Witness

He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.Psalms 2:4-5

The World's Rage Against Israel

Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Psalms 2:6-7

And Against The Peoples Of The Big Book Of Yeshua, Of Jesus

The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.

And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.Zechariah 12:1-3

~

Dear Brother

Is Ephraim my dear son? is he a pleasant child? for since I spake against him, I do earnestly remember him still: therefore my bowels are troubled for him; I will surely have mercy upon him, saith the LORD.Jeremiah 31:20

Wonderful Subject

I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away from him. I will be as the dew unto Israel: he shall grow as the lily, and cast forth his roots as Lebanon. His branches shall spread, and his beauty shall be as the olive tree, and his smell as Lebanon.Hosea 14:4-6

About The Faithful And The True

Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be said, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt; But, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers.Jeremiah 16:14-15

About The LORD Jesus

For the LORD will restore the splendor of Jacob Like the splendor of Israel, Even though devastators have devastated them And destroyed their vine branches.Nahum 2:2 (NASB)

Messiah

For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.Isaiah 54:5

Posted 23 February 2014 - 01:42 AM

And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;Romans 11:17

And The Jew

For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.Romans 11:24-27

And The KING OF THE JEWS

And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS. John 19:19

EnochBethany

Posted 23 February 2014 - 06:32 PM

EnochBethany

Veteran Member

Banned

687 posts

Replacement theology is different then Hebrew roots theology. Most who subscribe to Hebrew roots theology fall under Two House, British Israelism, like Herbert W. Armstrong. This group believes that some or all Christians are actually members of the so-called 10 lost tribes, who when scattered somehow developed amnesia and forgot that they are actually descendents of Israel.

Replacement theology teaches that Christians have replaced physical Israel and are now Spiritual Israel, and receive all of the positive promises and blessings from God to Israel while physical Israel gets to keep the curses.

Jewish roots is what is taught in mainstream Messianic Judaism which shows the Jewishness of Jesus, and the Jewish expressions and understanding of the law, taught by Jesus and the Jewish apostles.

"Jewish roots is what is taught in mainstream Messianic Judaism which shows the Jewishness of Jesus"

And I suppose that they don't distinguish between being Israelite & being Jew?

EnochBethany

Posted 23 February 2014 - 06:34 PM

I grant their premise that Israel is the suffering servant. To their delight.

Then I say we need to determine which Israel is the suffering servant for there are several.

Israel the people.

Israel the patriarch.

Israel the Northern Kingdom.

Israel the modern state.

And one more.

Israel is a combination of the words YISH SARAR ELOHIYM.

He is Prince of God.

Who is the ultimate Prince of God?

So

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.Isaiah 9:1

Amen

If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.2 Chronicles 7:14

And Thus

Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.Psalms 2:1-3

We Daily Witness

He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.Psalms 2:4-5

The World's Rage Against Israel

Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Psalms 2:6-7

And Against The Peoples Of The Big Book Of Yeshua, Of Jesus

The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.

And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.Zechariah 12:1-3

~

Dear Brother

Is Ephraim my dear son? is he a pleasant child? for since I spake against him, I do earnestly remember him still: therefore my bowels are troubled for him; I will surely have mercy upon him, saith the LORD.Jeremiah 31:20

Wonderful Subject

I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away from him. I will be as the dew unto Israel: he shall grow as the lily, and cast forth his roots as Lebanon. His branches shall spread, and his beauty shall be as the olive tree, and his smell as Lebanon.Hosea 14:4-6

About The Faithful And The True

Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be said, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt; But, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers.Jeremiah 16:14-15

About The LORD Jesus

For the LORD will restore the splendor of Jacob Like the splendor of Israel, Even though devastators have devastated them And destroyed their vine branches.Nahum 2:2 (NASB)

Messiah

For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.Isaiah 54:5

Love, Your Brother Joe

"I grant their premise that Israel is the suffering servant. To their delight."

I don't see how any careful reasoning of Isaiah 53 could put Israel in there as the one on whom the Lord laid the iniquity of us all.