Rumor:Palm has recently been sending out invitations to select customers inviting them to "test an innovative new product." The invitation goes on to list a number of requirements among which include heavy smartphone/email use, WiFi Router access and are a current Sprint customer.

At the very least, this email confirms that Palm's expected next generation Windows Mobile Treo will include WiFi. We can also presume that it also indicates that like many of Palm's previous new Treos, the upcoming device will likely debut on Sprint in the US.

'innovative new product'

RE: 'innovative new product'

I suppose I'm still one of the only people who didn't like the foleo idea to begin with. It always seemed stupid to me... to have an accessory for a mobile device roughly the size of a sub notebook functioning mostly as a larger interface for an equally expensive parent device. May as well just get a keyboard.

how does this 'innovate'?

If they throw in a multitasking OS, a Webkit-based browser, GPS and free maps, VoIP, chat, a boatload of software, an FM transmitter, and a 3-5Mpixel camera, and shrink it to about 1/3 of its volume, then they'd have... a modern Nokia or Sony cell phone.

RE: 'innovative new product'

April 23, 2008 (FinancialWire) Palm (NASDAQ: PALM) (Current Market Cap: US$642.15 Mil.) founder Jeffrey Hawkins sold 20,000 shares of the company's common stock under a prearranged trading plan, according to a Securities and Exchange Commission filing.

In a Form 4 filed with the SEC, Hawkins reported that he sold the shares Monday for $5.61 apiece. The sale was conducted under a prearranged 10b5-1 trading plan, which allows a company insider to set up a program in advance for such transactions and proceed with them even if he or she comes into possession of material non-public information.

Tech Center Labs

RE: 'innovative new product'

In the deep distant past both Jeff Hawkins and Donna Dubinsky ceased to be significant entities at PALM - one is now a "member of the exec", whatever the heck that means, the other is simply a Director on the Board of Directors.

Both, however, have significant percentages of their personal wealth tied up in PALM stock; stock of a company that is now out of their control.

As such, it makes TOTAL sense to THIS observer that both would be selling out - that is, "redistributing" their wealth - to protect themselves.

Both started up sales plans that theoretically take the "Insiderness" out of the sales - the sales happen automatically like clockwork no matter what is going on behind the scenes at PALM, for better or worse.

Around the time of the initial negotiations for the sale of PALM - a sale that was SUPPOSED to be total, BTW - Dubinsky STOPPED her planned sales. After all was said and done w.r.t. The Transaction (only a partial sale since no one wanted to buy PALM completely) Ms. Dubinsky did NOT start her planned sales up again. I personally think that's a very VERY interesting little factoid that has essentially gone undiscussed. IMHO, it easily could be a sign that PALM continues to try to sell itself (or merge with another company - same thing) since I can see no reason for her to be sufficiently optimistic about PALM to not want to continue to redistribute her (considerable) wealth.

But, anyway, these planned sales are not some sort of sinister sign, IMHO, but simply money management that makes total sense.

RE: 'innovative new product'

I'm not sure I follow you, are you saying even if he sees the 'innovative new product' as something that will blow us away and turn the company around he would need to sell instead of buy because it's prearranged?

Tech Center Labs

RE: 'innovative new product'

No, I'm saying Hawkins and Dubinsky are essentially "past tense" w.r.t. PALM regardless what PALM does, good or bad, so it thus makes TOTAL sense for each to reduce their PALM holdings to something reasonable.

The old "eggs all in one basket" resolution...

Diversity is the name of the game for generic investments to minimize risk, especially as one gets older.

RE: 'innovative new product'

Oh, I thought the name of the game was to buy low and sell high. With an innovate new product on the horizon and possible inside info I think it says something but that's just my opinion and I'm not doing that great in the market :-(

Attention Seldom Visitor re: TC 800w Shenanigans

SV, did you catch the particulars of poor ol' Twaddle's TC posts on the 800w? Did he actually post any specific info on the device or even a picture? Was the capacity of the battery (obviously not 1100mAh) actually given?

P.S. I've long suspected that the major Palm OS/mobile sites were in Palm's pocket-particularly TC & BH. With PIC & 1src, of course, being the "rogue" site that always tell it like it is. I came under tremendous flak years ago at those sites for posting certain theories at Brighthand (Palm was trying to artifically snuff the life out of the PDA market, Palm was intentionally disbling Bluetooth DUN connectivity on CDMA handsets on the LifeDrive & TX in order to sell more Treos and/or stay in good graces with the domestic CDMA carriers etc). At worst, they're in Palm's pocket. At worst, many Palm apologists frequent those sites. For further proof, look at Palm's mobile portal page in Blazer. They STILL don't link to PIC (just TC). And the official Palm Blog just posted about sites with good tips targeted at new Centro users on how to get the most out of their devices. PIC is NEVER referenced in official posts like those, despite, I'll wager, much of the PIC readership being seriously loyal (albeit frustrated) long-term users of the OS.

P.P.S. Remember, for a customer, Palm would rather have a teen who is a recent dumbphone covert who is initially pleased (ignorance is bliss!) having mobile e-mail/web access on their Centro.

A "new sale" like the above is always preferable to Palm over having to address serious concerns from decade-long users of the OS who are legitimately concerned abotu the future of the platform and clamoring for improved device specs, reliability, and performance.

Confirms no such thing

You have fallen into the trap of taking what another site says and assuming that site is correct, even though it has ZERO evidence to that effect.

The email being sent out is asking for beta-testers.

Just how long do you think the turn-around time is for someone to be retained as a betatester, to be given the device to betatest, to test it, to provide feedback to Palm, for Palm to consider the feedback, for Palm to implement the feedback, for it to be tested, and for the ultimate device to be introduced?

That is to say, why in the world does ANYONE think the device in question is the rumored "800w" which is supposed to be out in one or two months!?

And the bottomline is you LITERALLY have NO clue that the device in question is a "Treo".

Couple of possible scenarios

1. This is just last-minute testing to see what pops up so they can begin working on any needed driver/ROM updates to be released after it ships.

2. The 800w will come this summer LACKING wi-fi, but a slightly refreshed 800wx will arrive sometime next year (this device) as the followup phone.

3.This is a test of a an early beta of NOVA, running on a variation of the imminent 800w hardware.

4. This is a future non-Foleo, non-smartphone device. Perhaps it's a larger tablet-style device that might eventually be offered in WiMax flavor (ala Nokia's N-series tablet) by Sprint?

P.S. But, SV, if it WAS a Fooleo II, why would Sprint even need to be involved? Remember, one of the main reasons for the Fooleo's existence (stated by none less than Ed C. himself) was to give Palm *SOMETHING* to sell at B&M retailers (Best Buy etc) that was not subject to any interference or qualification by the carriers. I'd think a higher-margin "non-service-based" device like a new PDA or a Fooleo II one would be tested/marketed totally outside the carriers' realm.

Foleo won't come back

RE: Foleo won't come back

You guys aren't serious about Foleo II, are you? That idea is thankfully dead, never to return.

Not necessarily. When they killed the Foleo, they specifically said they were going back to the drawing board with it:

Jeff Hawkins and I still believe that the market category defined by Foleo has enormous potential. When we do Foleo II it will be based on our new platform, and we think it will deliver on the promise of this new category. We're not going to speculate now on timing for a next Foleo, we just know we need to get our core platform and smartphones done first.

RE: Foleo won't come back

If only they'd get the hint already and push back into the PDA market. I daresay the market is only really dying because nobody is really developing for it anymore (and so the customers stop buying). If they released an innovative device, people would jump at it (assuming it were reasonably priced). Forget the foleo, go with something that makes sense. (Of course, the new thing is obviously not a PDA... how unfortunate)

RE: Foleo won't come back

The Foleo won't come back, but cheap subnotebooks based on Linux are all the rage. Asus Eee PC is selling like hotcakes, HP has just come out with one, and so have several other companies. They work great with smartphones.

RE: Foleo won't come back

Palm's announcement about a future Foleo II was just a face-saving move after such a humiliating product launch. The people in charge will be very happy if no one brings it up again.

There is a market for cheap Linux subnotebooks, but this wasn't what the Foleo was. The Foleo was an external keyboard and screen for a Treo - without the Treo it couldn't even check email. It couldn't play music or video. Palm would need to upgrade the Foleo to full PC specs (ie. completely replace it's windowing system and applications, give it a faster processor) just for the chance to compete with the ASUS and all the other new clones. Palm doesn't have the resources to do all this work.

The only way for Palm to make any money off the Foleo idea would be:

Palm writes some sync software for the EEEpc etc. and tries to get ASUS to bundle it, or sell it as an upgrade for the Treo/Centro.

Sell the Foleo hardware design to another company and collect a few pennies per unit sold.

RE: Foleo won't come back

If only they'd get the hint already and push back into the PDA market. I daresay the market is only really dying because nobody is really developing for it anymore (and so the customers stop buying). If they released an innovative device, people would jump at it (assuming it were reasonably priced). Forget the foleo, go with something that makes sense. (Of course, the new thing is obviously not a PDA... how unfortunate)

I think it's more complicated than just that no one is updating PDA designs anymore. After all, there is Nokia out there with the N810.

Since it's got Linux on it, it wouldn't be too hard to create a kick-*ss PDA from it.

But as you said, "reasonably priced" is the key, and that seems to be the problem. Smartphones have gotten to the point where a lot of people seem to think that the extras you get from a PDA (chiefly, the large screen) aren't worth it anymore. That's not to say that no one wants a large-screen PDA, but not enough people do to make it worth it. (If Apple marketed the iPod Touch as a competitor to Palm PDA's or as the successor to the Newton, how successful do you think they'd be?)

The Foleo's chief problem was too little bang for the buck. A large screen and keyboard for a smartphone isn't a bad idea, but charging $500 for it certainly was. And not including an e-mail client that could use wifi was unforgivable. It's not like they couldn't have included Evolution on the Foleo. $500 for what they delivered was far too much.

RE: Foleo won't come back

Asus is now also running into the "Palm Problems" of too little bang for the buck and too much greed, if the newest EEE PC 900 initial US pricing reports of ~$550 are correct. And with the 8.9" just hitting the market and a 10" EEE coming later this summer, Asus might have their own little Fooleo debacle on their hands. For $500+, I'll just put up with the size/bulk and unmatched functionality of a dual-core, 2gb, DVD burning Wintel laptop from Dell etc, thank you very much. At $400 or below, the EEE and its ilk have a spot in the market as toys with a little bit of functionality built in. At anything above $400, they're toast, at least with their current specs. Heck, I'd still have a hard time choosing between a Palm TX and a 2G EEE PC if my $299 were on the line.

Too many of the functions in the defeault Xandros Linux + custom Asus UI package require online connectivity. No Bluetooth is a deal-breaker for me. It'd be nice to have a dial-up modem, stronger battery life, & TV-out onboard for users in the boonies and/or users in developing markets. And XP still cannot be displayed on the 8.9" LCD without having to scroll around-the screen size/resolution was the main reason I took XP off of my 4G EEE and went back to Linux. I'll PROBABLY keep my 4G EEE, especially after I've upgraded the RAM, added another SDHC card and bought an external optical drive for it, but the hidden "gotcha" costs in there simply make any version of the EEE an unreasonable prospect for anything other than very light web browsing, e-mail, and basically being a novelty.

Some of the competitors look nice, especially the little HP (but I'm always wary of buying ANYTHING from HP/Compaq-the kings of bloatware) since you can configure it with a 7200rpm HD but that Via C7 CPU is an unfortunate the weak spot on it. And I'd worry about post-sale support (firmware, drivers etc) from any of these manufacturers for any of these devices.

It's hard to beat the ultimate functionality offered by a quality dumbphone and a "real" full-size Wintel notebook. I'm actually surprised that manufacturers are jumping on these razor-thin margin, cut-down $300-$600 machines instead of trying to get higher-margin "real" notebooks with optical drives down to

RE: Foleo won't come back

What does Palm know about making a sub-notebook? I think the EEE and Mac Book Air have shown that the form factor works, but I don't think it would work for Palm to become a laptop maker. I still think they're going to position any new Foleo as primarily a smartphone adjunct, that can hold its own for Web browsing and e-mail when the need arises.

RE: Foleo won't come back

Leaving aside the simplicity, ease of use, "thousands of apps" and the strong PIM functions of the Palm OS (as well as WinMob & whatever becomes of Nova): To date, Palm's only major success through actual applied hardware engineering & formfactor improvements has been in PDAs (Pilot, Palm V, m500, T|T). We all know what happened to the Fooleo despite its amply-sized keyboard & screen. And, donning my flamesuit here, I personally attribute Palm's "success" in smartphones to some combination of low pricing, smoke & mirrors marketing tactics, beneficial carrier agreements, prior lack of competition in the smartphone segment, the hoopla of people jumping on the smartphone bandwagon, and/or a lack of an upgrade path to any other compelling Palm OS devices. No one will argue that Palm's ever been at the head of the pack for smartphones in any hardware spec, aside from 320x320 pixel count and, in older Treos, battery capacity.

Palm's a marketing company now, as they have essentially been since they released the T3 in 2003. The Fooleo was simply answering a question that precious few people were (and still are) asking. Nobody wants a 10" screen and a near-fullsizse keyboard on a "companion" device that is utterly lacking in built-in functionality. Yet there are tons of people who have clamoring for an iPhone-sized screen on their Palm smartphone and (optionally) a decent slide-out keyboard ala Nokia N810/SE Xperia X1 on their *PRIMARY* device. THAT is what Palm cannot seem to comprehend!

RE: Foleo won't come back

Leaving aside the simplicity, ease of use, "thousands of apps" and the strong PIM functions of the Palm OS...

"Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?" :)

Seriously, the things you list there are Palm's strengths, and they're nothing to sneeze at. The reasons the PDAs work at all is because of all those things. It's also the thing that's good about the Centro. To be honest, a BlackJack II is no more expensive than a Centro, if you get it from AT&T on a new contract. And a lot of the specs of the BlackJack II are better. But the Palm OS is a strong selling point, for the reasons you state above (particularly, as you say, on the upgrade path).

The last time Palm actually innovated on hardware was probably way back in the original Palm Pilot days, when they got the hardware and Graffiti right (after the failure of the Newton). Since then, the game seems to be taking the innovations of others (e.g., wifi, cameras, video) and integrating them in such a way that they don't break the KISS philosophy or cause problems with battery life or cost (which, by all indications, seem to be the two top priorities of hardware development there at Palm).

I don't think you'll see a TX/cell combo from Palm until they figure out a way to do it that gives them decent battery life and an acceptable price point.

In terms of design, I really see them going more towards a Nokia n810 design philosophy, rather than an iPhone philosophy. From what I've read, the iPhone doesn't make a particularly good phone, and it's not looking very extensible, at this point, software-wise.

RE: Foleo won't come back

I respectfully disagree with both y'all. I maintain that the m500/505/515 series was Palm's crowning point.

True, the m500/505 in particular were riddled with issues (SUDS, USA vs. Hungary units etc) and the devices should've been more innovative on the hardware front...but they still managed to combine good battery life with an external expansion slot and improved build quality (vs. the Palm V). Primarily, the m500 formfactor felt better in the hand than the sharper, more angular V did and had nicer hard buttons. The Palm V was the iconic Ideo product but the m500 was a near-perfect refinement of that design. If the T|T hadn't tempted me with its 320x320 resolution, 3.5mm headphone jack + mp3 capabilties, and improved d-pad, I'd probably have stuck with an m515 for quite a long time.

Palm showed a feeble nod to the V/m500 with the T|E-style FF but they really should have used the m500 as their de facto FF design from 2001 onward. Even today it's still a looker (powered off, of course!) and easily slips into a pants or shirt pocket.

Just imagine if Palm had sent the PDA out with a bang by fitting TX-level specs into a m500 formfactor circa 2005/2006! I too would dig deep to find the funds for that one!

RE: Foleo won't come back

Just imagine if Palm had sent the PDA out with a bang by fitting TX-level specs into a m500 formfactor circa 2005/2006! I too would dig deep to find the funds for that one!

I do agree that the m515 was a nice device. (I can't bring myself to say the same about the m505.) Maybe the form factor was new, but I don't think the underlying technologies were. Palm took technologies that already existed and put them in a reasonably-priced package with a good form factor.

That's where I think the problem comes in with the idea of a PDA with am m500 form factor and TX specs: I don't think Palm could do it and keep it reasonably priced - especially as far back as 2005/2006. I think such a device now would be DOA, unless it had cell capability, and that would put it up at boutique levels like the iPhone.

Palm isn't that kind of company. I could see Microsoft or Apple doing that, but not really Palm.

RE: Foleo won't come back

In addition to having more RAM, the m515 was backlit as opposed to frontlit, and it had the ability to amp up the brightness further. (The main complaint a lot of people had with the m505 was the pathetically dim screen.)

RE: Foleo won't come back

Yup, even at low brightness the m515 was MUCH brighter than the m505 with the backlight on. Remember, the m505 didn't even have its backlight on permanently without a hack or the patch that Palm released after it shipped and everyone began grumbling about it. The m515 also had OS 4.1 (instead of 4.0) and 16mb of RAM instead of 8mb. The m505 did trump the m515 with an illuminated hard Graffiti area-still a feature exclusive to that device alone. I LOVED that feature! I personally didn't think the m505 was THAT bad--dim color is still (usually) better than no color at all, especially after I managed to replace my Hungarian unit with a USA-built one that was considerbly better all around.

IMO Palm really dropped the ball by not offering a moderately improved version of the m515 with OS5 to fit somewhere in between the Zires and the T|T line. All they would have needed hardware-wise was come up with a 5-way navigator pad instad of the up/down rocker. Even with a coarse 160x160 color LCD and a 126mhz OMAP CPU, an OS5 m515 would've been a sweet little device indeed. Like it or not, when Palm put the Palm V & m500 lines out to pasture, people began associating Palm's products as being brick-like and unstylish.

RE: Foleo won't come back

Like it or not, when Palm put the Palm V & m500 lines out to pasture, people began associating Palm's products as being brick-like and unstylish.

I can relate to that, but I don't think they really lost their way in terms of stylish design until the LifeDrive. Even if you look at the TX, the dimensions aren't that much different from the m500 series:

m515:

4.49 x 3.02 x .46 in.

TX

4.5 x 3.1 x 0.5 in.

Compare that to the LifeDrive:

4.76 x 2.87 x 0.74 in.

The LifeDrive was a substantially chunkier device (even if it's a little narrower). Plus, it's just not a very attractive design, IMO. (One of the criticisms I have of the Centro is they seem to have borrowed the button design from the LifeDrive.)

RE: Foleo won't come back

GTFOH. Someone *please* post a pic of the m5xx next to a TX. I can't believe that. My remembrance of the m5xxs are of small and pocketable. Not this oblong hunk of fugly that's the TX.

The differences feel large in your hand, but the actual measurements aren't that different numerically. The TX certainly is fugly, compared to the m5xx's lines.

Actually, I did my first lookup of the dimensions in Wikipedia. Going to CNET, here are the dimension comparisons:

TX:

3.1 in x 0.6 in x 4.8 in

m515:

3.1 in x 0.5 in x 4.5 in

So it looks like Wikipedia was roughly .3 inches off on the height of the TX.

(You can check out CNET for images of all of the devices, obviously.)

The differences we're talking about here aren't enormous. I think it's the styling that makes most of the difference in perception. The m5xx series (and the Palms that came before, even) had a hell of a lot less boxy appearance.

Foleo = ASUS EEEPC

They Kill the Foleo and out comes the Asus EEEPC, I wonder if Microsoft put pressure on Palm to not put out a linux sub note book. just a thought. Asus has been laughing all the way to the bank. Dam I wish my Asus had documents to go on it like the folio did, but then theres open office and that rocks. Wake up and smell the roses palm we need native ODF support on our palm devices LOL. Just for a side note my Palm TX syncs perfectly with My Ubuntu Laptop and desktop so simply! :-)

RE: Foleo = ASUS EEEPC

There have been rumors that someone walked into Palm and told them if they went ahead with the Foleo, the Windows Mobile license would be either cut or the per unit fee would be increased to where it would not be profitable.

However, there is no confirmation of this at all. It is easy to conjecture something like this so who knows.

Too many bugs is very plausible. I would love hear from something of the NDA'ed developers that had a Foleo in their hands after their NDA expires.

RE: pick me!

Didn't you hear last week's announcement? The powers that be at Palm only read these sorts of forums for laughs.

Palm doesn't care if you're a long-time PDA/Palm OS user or not. All they want to do are sell as many Centros as possible to dumbphone converts. They don't want "power users" beta-testing anything unless it's a device that's already hit the market (650, T5, LifeDrive, 700p etc), as we might actually *GASP* catch a bug or two or make some recommendation that would require spending money on more advanced hardware/R&D, or improving FrankenGarnet.

RE: pick me!

Yep. I am one of the most experienced Palm beta testers around. Beta tested every single device from the m500 to the Treo 650. Hot sync lock ups, drifting digitizers and random resets. More often than not they were fixed by the Palm developer community rather than Palm. Palm likes to release a partial fix as a new model and tries to sucker me into buying another to Beta test. No thanks. I'm sticking with my my little pile of new-in-box old Palms that have are stable. Break a leg, Palm.

RE: Foleo 0.5 Is Already Here

The Redfly looks like a non-starter, since it's going to be $500. I was a little impressed when I saw the mobile SlingBox, until I saw the video playing (and "playing", in this case, is using the term very loosely). It's hard to tell without having the Foleo to compare side-by-side, but I dom't remember the need to plug the Foleo into your smartphone to use it the first time, either.

I think the ZDNet article has it right, though: $250 sounds about right for that kind of functionality.

RE: Foleo 0.5 Is Already Here

That seems unlikely, unless they're planning on making multicore PowerPC subnotebooks. Having gone to the effort of getting off PowerPC, now they're going to go back to it for a single segment of the product line...?

RE: Foleo 0.5 Is Already Here

New York Times article slights Palm

Here's an article in the New York Times from a few days back. It's interesting, and talks about RIM and the changing landscape of the smartphone market. Notably absent: anything more than a mention of Palm. Nothing at all about Palm as a future player in the smartphone market.

RE: New York Times article slights Palm

I think it might be more of a problem of the focus of the article. The author obviously wants to set up a duel between RIM and Apple, so that's obviously where the emphasis is going to be. Menawhile, here on Planet Earth, Apple doesn't have even one phone in the smartphone market, let alone all the phones that Palm and the various WM phones have. Even counting the iPhone as a smartphone, that population is relatively small, compared to all the Treos (of all flavors) out there.

PalmInfocenter.com is not affiliated with or endorsed by Palm Inc. or HP.
Any use of the word Palm is for discussion purposes and is a registered trademark of Palm Inc.
Unauthorized use or reproduction of content is strictly forbidden.