Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

Yep - it doesn't stand up, and you could almost go so far as to say Sherlock's lying; it wasn't surgery, it was death, as he knows darn well: his own will brought him back rather than anything Mary did so his declaration that she saved his life, or shot for surgery only is a nonsense.Plus, he'd already, sincerely, offered to help her. At that point she had time to incapacitate CAM, ask Sherlock to keep quiet until she'd had a chance to speak alone to him, and escape.Not such dramatic TV, maybe, but not such a huge step into the unbelievable either.

Last edited by Tinks (February 22, 2014 10:06 am)

"And in the end,The Love you takeIs equal to the Love you make" The Beatles

Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

She is possessive because he holds John's hand at the grave of his best friend? Wow! And here I thought she was just trying to comfort him. But I guess I should have seen it. After all, she is definitely possessive when she is talking John around to forgiving Sherlock, and encouraging him to spend time with in in preparation for the wedding. Totally. John can hardly breath because she constantly clings on him - NOT!

Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

Swanpride wrote:

John can hardly breath because she constantly clings on him - NOT!

Just leave this quote from johns blog to your deduction...That night, the three of us (Mary insisted on coming along) broke into Chris's office searching for signs of an affair. Which we found. Only what we found were signs that Sabrina herself had been having the affair. Chris had hired his own detective to keep tracks on her. And she was having an affair with a woman. Sherlock was surprised that I was surprised by this. He said it had been obvious from the moment Mary had joined us.

Two is a company, three is a crowd.

------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually everyone willsupport Johnlock.

"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you" - Steven Moffat"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

Swanpride wrote:

She is possessive because he holds John's hand at the grave of his best friend? Wow! And here I thought she was just trying to comfort him. But I guess I should have seen it. After all, she is definitely possessive when she is talking John around to forgiving Sherlock, and encouraging him to spend time with in in preparation for the wedding. Totally. John can hardly breath because she constantly clings on him - NOT!

You raise some interesting points for me there, Swanpride.I don't see Mary as possessive - I agree with you on that one.But her behaviour concerning John's relationship with Sherlock DID change;In TEH and TSOT, she was practically pushing the two of them together, yet at the beginning of HLV she is exasperated by the fact that John is missing Sherlock after not seeing him for " only a month" - I wonder if this a hint at something - some reason why she suddenly wanted to keep John away from Sherlock?

"And in the end,The Love you takeIs equal to the Love you make" The Beatles

Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

Maybe she started worrying that Sherlock might deduce too much about her past. He learned about CAM and her by reading out the wedding telegraph, he deduced her pregnancy. Maybe at the beginning of TEH and TSOT she just felt more comfortable and didn't quite recognize he might be deducing her secrets and thus being a potential threat.

------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually everyone willsupport Johnlock.

"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you" - Steven Moffat"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

TeeJay wrote:

And in terms of Sherlock saying Mary's aim was "surgery", well, I'm sure that was just a pretty word they used to illustrate Mary's decision not to go for the forehead shot. If I wanted to be really pedantic, I guess I could try to argue now that she'd know where exactly the major blood vessels in the liver area are located, and she chose an exact spot where she wouldn't hit any of them. But, well, that would be a little too precise, wouldn't it?

It would deffinitely be too pracise. Becouse of individual variations in anatomy (we are not clones) it's impossible to know exactly what you are going to hit just be looking at someone. Aspecially not when they are wearing several layers of clothing.

Mary gave Sherlock a fighting chance by aiming where she did. Statistically gunshot wound to the liver have a mortality rate of about 10%, which are not bad odds. She couldn't have known exactly how this will end up and it's not safe by any stretch of imagination but I really don't think she wanted to kill him. There is a good chance that she nicked the inferior vana cava ( a very big blood vessel) considering how quickly he bled out but my interpretation is that this was unlucky. If she wanted him dead she would have aimed somewhere else.

Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

mrshouse wrote:

Maybe she started worrying that Sherlock might deduce too much about her past. He learned about CAM and her by reading out the wedding telegraph, he deduced her pregnancy. Maybe at the beginning of TEH and TSOT she just felt more comfortable and didn't quite recognize he might be deducing her secrets and thus being a potential threat.

Good point, yes, maybe that's it.

"And in the end,The Love you takeIs equal to the Love you make" The Beatles

Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

belis wrote:

TeeJay wrote:

And in terms of Sherlock saying Mary's aim was "surgery", well, I'm sure that was just a pretty word they used to illustrate Mary's decision not to go for the forehead shot. If I wanted to be really pedantic, I guess I could try to argue now that she'd know where exactly the major blood vessels in the liver area are located, and she chose an exact spot where she wouldn't hit any of them. But, well, that would be a little too precise, wouldn't it?

It would deffinitely be too pracise. Becouse of individual variations in anatomy (we are not clones) it's impossible to know exactly what you are going to hit just be looking at someone. Aspecially not when they are wearing several layers of clothing.

Mary gave Sherlock a fighting chance by aiming where she did. Statistically gunshot wound to the liver have a mortality rate of about 10%, which are not bad odds. She couldn't have known exactly how this will end up and it's not safe by any stretch of imagination but I really don't think she wanted to kill him. There is a good chance that she nicked the inferior vana cava ( a very big blood vessel) considering how quickly he bled out but my interpretation is that this was unlucky. If she wanted him dead she would have aimed somewhere else.

For me it was just too cold, too clinical. She may have decided against blowing his brains out but she still left him bleeding to death, and if he had died, what then? He was just collateral damage?And this is yet another area where the story falls apart for me - she was ready to take that chance with his life and we're left with the impression that we have to accept what she's done and love her as much as John and Sherlock do, and I find this too much of a stretch.

"And in the end,The Love you takeIs equal to the Love you make" The Beatles

Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

Tinks wrote:

For me it was just too cold, too clinical. She may have decided against blowing his brains out but she still left him bleeding to death, and if he had died, what then? He was just collateral damage?And this is yet another area where the story falls apart for me - she was ready to take that chance with his life and we're left with the impression that we have to accept what she's done and love her as much as John and Sherlock do, and I find this too much of a stretch.

I see Mary as quite a cold and calculating character. I still like her though. I'm not sure if the writers want us to love Mary. She is a very grey character and some will love her, some will hate her and some will just tolerate her. I think that's the intention. We can now have those great threads judging and defending her for next couple of years as we wait for season 4. ;)

Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

belis wrote:

Tinks wrote:

For me it was just too cold, too clinical. She may have decided against blowing his brains out but she still left him bleeding to death, and if he had died, what then? He was just collateral damage?And this is yet another area where the story falls apart for me - she was ready to take that chance with his life and we're left with the impression that we have to accept what she's done and love her as much as John and Sherlock do, and I find this too much of a stretch.

I see Mary as quite a cold and calculating character. I still like her though. I'm not sure if the writers want us to love Mary. She is a very grey character and some will love her, some will hate her and some will just tolerate her. I think that's the intention. We can now have those great threads judging and defending her for next couple of years as we wait for season 4. ;)

When it comes to Mary I do think that the writers have left a lot of red flags sticking up which can be construed in very different ways, and provide them with the opportunity to go almost anywhere with the character. They have excluded a Sherlock including the lethal killer nurse wandering around shooting anybody she thinks might be a threat, for the very obvious reason that it would no longer be Sherlock, and I really cannot imagine baby blankets in Baker St amusing Moftiss for more than a few nanoseconds.

I am positive, however, that Moftiss don't expect the majority of viewers to still see Mary as loveable; most of us agree with Mrs Holmes' view of the person who shot her son, and most of us are aware that there are many different kinds of 'love', not all of which include actually loving someone.

Mary certainly seems to be obsessed with John, but that's rather different; I hesitate to proffer any kind of label for this, since this is your territory, not mine, but if John possessed a pet rabbit I wouldn't have given good odds on it surviving had he decided against continuing with Mary

I am fairly sure that there was a connection between CAM which goes beyond the one we know about; once Mary had put a bullet into Sherlock's chest there was no conceivable reason for CAM to leave her alive since he would never know whether she was lining up a scope on his skull. CAM's failure to do that is, I would suggest, similar to the dog which didn't bark in the night; when an intelligent and powerful man, accustomed to destroying people with ease at no personal risk, fails to protect himself from someone who has just demonstrated how easy she finds it to kill by putting a bullet into a guy's chest right in front of him, then there has to be a reason.

We do see that CAM was terrified in that scene, as well he might be, and Mary had just apparently destroyed his route to Mycroft. So, logically, a brief phone call should have followed, and yet it didn't. We had the original link between Moriarty and the tabloid press, CAM controlled a hefty chunk of the tabloid press, and, right at the end of HLV, Moriarty apparently reappears, with Mary suddenly going all scared little woman in her brief exchange with John.

Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

Personally, I am convinced this was definitely not „surgery“ but murder attempt on Mary′s side.

And actually, I am not at all surprised that Mary was revealed as an assassin in HLV. Because if you think about it, there was something off about her from the very start. Canonical ACD Mary Morstan was not that close to Sherlock Holmes yet she treated him with respect and in deference to his abilities. BBC Mary, on the other hand, treated Sherlock as if he was some kind of their family dog, there was generally not a shred of respect for him in her demeanor. When she barked at him „solve it!“ in TSOT, to me it sounded like „sit!“ or „fetch!“ - not exactly a friendly behaviour. She maybe liked Sherlock like you tolerate your pet, but she didn′t give me impression she would mind if he disappeared from her life completely. So it made absolute sense to me when she shot him – suddenly it was clear she was his enemy all the time and that explained her previous strange disregard of Sherlock.

Under that mask of fake friendliness she probably feared him like hell. Just imagine being at her place – your boyfriend proposes you, you are sure you can settle down with him and escape your dark past, when unexpectedly that creepy man (who should be dead for two years) pops out of nowhere and inserts himself into your life like some annoying limpet. And he is not only your rival who takes half of John′s heart from you – he is also the most observant man of this world and a detective on top of all that. From that moment it is not just a possibility but a certainty that he will reveal the truth about you very soon.

What a luck for Mary that Sherlock was completely sidetracked by John′s violent hysterics that evening and didn′t pay that much attention to her. She was also extremely clever to offer her help to Sherlock, acting like his supporter. If she tried to separate him from John immediately, she would arouse his suspicion much sooner. In that manner she was able to neutralise that danger for some time, yet Sherlock surely was a thorn in her side all along. As was revealed via his mind palace, subconciously he was always aware that she is a liar, he was just momentarily blinded by her apparent frienship.

So when he gave her the reason to get rid of him by walking on her in CAM′s office she shot him without much remorse and she aimed to kill.

As to why she chose to shoot him into his chest rather than the head – even as an experienced assassin she still could be seen by somebody when leaving CAM′s office and her presence there or her deed could still be revealed to John. In that case she could pretend she just panicked and shot Sherlock accidentaly with no intent to kill him. Headshot would reveal her as a cold-blooded murderer immediately. She was protecting herself not saving Sherlock when she decided to pierce his liver not his head with a bullet. She probably called an ambulance for similar reasons (if she called it at all). And by wounding Sherlock mortally but not killing him on the spot she also bound John to his side, so that John remained with him in CAM′s office and didn′t pursue her.

Sherlock′s allegations that Mary saved his life and that she „performed surgery“ on him are deliberate lies. Sherlock knows all too well that Mary intended to kill him: every vision he has in his mind palace and every person inhabiting his inner world assure him that he will die (and he dies indeed). While in hospital he has scary visions about her and she even threatens him in person: „Sherlock, don′t tell John...“ Every single thing tells him that Mary will try again and finish him off, this time for real.

It is for his own safety as well as John′s when he reveals Mary′s true face in Leicester Gardens to John. She has no further reason to make attempt on his life anymore if John knows the truth. And John is now informed about the danger arising from Mary, thus being able to see her for what she really is and defend himself if necessary.

Sherlock then deliberately shields Mary by claiming that she saved his life. By that deed he gives John a chance to decide if he wants to continue his marrige, but he is not influencing him with the fact that his wife shot his best friend. He probably also feels some pity for Mary who stupidly alienated him when it would be wiser to ask for his help.

(Personally, I think writers used the plot of canonical „Adventure of the Second Stain“ here. Lady Hilda, a heroine of that story, stole an important government document from her husband and gave it to the blackmailer because „her husband would stop loving her if he knew about her past“ (some compromising letter). She is abhorrently selfish in this, because the stolen document could cause war with ten thousands victims and its disappearance could also destroy her husbands career. But Lady Hilda apparently sets her own happiness over all that. Holmes finally forces her to give up the document restored from the blackmailer but after that he takes pity on her and sneakily returns the document into her husband′s dispatch box. He then lies to the husband that nothing at all happened and that the document was in husband′s possession all the time. If Holmes told him the truth he would irreparably damage his marriage and probably end his career anyway. Sherlock however, althrough he appears cold and calculating, is much more compasionate than people generally think.)

-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

nakahara wrote:

Personally, I am convinced this was definitely not „surgery“ but murder attempt on Mary′s side.

And actually, I am not at all surprised that Mary was revealed as an assassin in HLV. Because if you think about it, there was something off about her from the very start. Canonical ACD Mary Morstan was not that close to Sherlock Holmes yet she treated him with respect and in deference to his abilities. BBC Mary, on the other hand, treated Sherlock as if he was some kind of their family dog, there was generally not a shred of respect for him in her demeanor. When she barked at him „solve it!“ in TSOT, to me it sounded like „sit!“ or „fetch!“ - not exactly a friendly behaviour. She maybe liked Sherlock like you tolerate your pet, but she didn′t give me impression she would mind if he disappeared from her life completely. So it made absolute sense to me when she shot him – suddenly it was clear she was his enemy all the time and that explained her previous strange disregard of Sherlock.

Under that mask of fake friendliness she probably feared him like hell. Just imagine being at her place – your boyfriend proposes you, you are sure you can settle down with him and escape your dark past, when unexpectedly that creepy man (who should be dead for two years) pops out of nowhere and inserts himself into your life like some annoying limpet. And he is not only your rival who takes half of John′s heart from you – he is also the most observant man of this world and a detective on top of all that. From that moment it is not just a possibility but a certainty that he will reveal the truth about you very soon.

What a luck for Mary that Sherlock was completely sidetracked by John′s violent hysterics that evening and didn′t pay that much attention to her. She was also extremely clever to offer her help to Sherlock, acting like his supporter. If she tried to separate him from John immediately, she would arouse his suspicion much sooner. In that manner she was able to neutralise that danger for some time, yet Sherlock surely was a thorn in her side all along. As was revealed via his mind palace, subconciously he was always aware that she is a liar, he was just momentarily blinded by her apparent frienship.

So when he gave her the reason to get rid of him by walking on her in CAM′s office she shot him without much remorse and she aimed to kill.

As to why she chose to shoot him into his chest rather than the head – even as an experienced assassin she still could be seen by somebody when leaving CAM′s office and her presence there or her deed could still be revealed to John. In that case she could pretend she just panicked and shot Sherlock accidentaly with no intent to kill him. Headshot would reveal her as a cold-blooded murderer immediately. She was protecting herself not saving Sherlock when she decided to pierce his liver not his head with a bullet. She probably called an ambulance for similar reasons (if she called it at all). And by wounding Sherlock mortally but not killing him on the spot she also bound John to his side, so that John remained with him in CAM′s office and didn′t pursue her.

Sherlock′s allegations that Mary saved his life and that she „performed surgery“ on him are deliberate lies. Sherlock knows all too well that Mary intended to kill him: every vision he has in his mind palace and every person inhabiting his inner world assure him that he will die (and he dies indeed). While in hospital he has scary visions about her and she even threatens him in person: „Sherlock, don′t tell John...“ Every single thing tells him that Mary will try again and finish him off, this time for real.

It is for his own safety as well as John′s when he reveals Mary′s true face in Leicester Gardens to John. She has no further reason to make attempt on his life anymore if John knows the truth. And John is now informed about the danger arising from Mary, thus being able to see her for what she really is and defend himself if necessary.

Sherlock then deliberately shields Mary by claiming that she saved his life. By that deed he gives John a chance to decide if he wants to continue his marrige, but he is not influencing him with the fact that his wife shot his best friend. He probably also feels some pity for Mary who stupidly alienated him when it would be wiser to ask for his help.

(Personally, I think writers used the plot of canonical „Adventure of the Second Stain“ here. Lady Hilda, a heroine of that story, stole an important government document from her husband and gave it to the blackmailer because „her husband would stop loving her if he knew about her past“ (some compromising letter). She is abhorrently selfish in this, because the stolen document could cause war with ten thousands victims and its disappearance could also destroy her husbands career. But Lady Hilda apparently sets her own happiness over all that. Holmes finally forces her to give up the document restored from the blackmailer but after that he takes pity on her and sneakily returns the document into her husband′s dispatch box. He then lies to the husband that nothing at all happened and that the document was in husband′s possession all the time. If Holmes told him the truth he would irreparably damage his marriage and probably end his career anyway. Sherlock however, althrough he appears cold and calculating, is much more compasionate than people generally think.)

Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

Yes, great post! I could not quite put my finger on what disturbed me about the Mary-Sherlock-relationship before the shoot, but your first passage really nails it. She treated him with disrespect and he let her, obviously taking it for friendship or even care.. I hated to watch this in TSoT.

Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

I think CAM was just waiting what would happen. He wouldnt even have to tell the police who shot Sherlock, he could just call someone who wanted Mary dead. His ultimate goal was Mycroft so a drugged Sherlock who made wrong decisions was the better option for him. If Sherlock had died he could still decide to use Mary for something or just call someone who would kill her.

Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

nakahara wrote:

Personally, I am convinced this was definitely not „surgery“ but murder attempt on Mary′s side.

And actually, I am not at all surprised that Mary was revealed as an assassin in HLV. Because if you think about it, there was something off about her from the very start. Canonical ACD Mary Morstan was not that close to Sherlock Holmes yet she treated him with respect and in deference to his abilities. BBC Mary, on the other hand, treated Sherlock as if he was some kind of their family dog, there was generally not a shred of respect for him in her demeanor. When she barked at him „solve it!“ in TSOT, to me it sounded like „sit!“ or „fetch!“ - not exactly a friendly behaviour. She maybe liked Sherlock like you tolerate your pet, but she didn′t give me impression she would mind if he disappeared from her life completely. So it made absolute sense to me when she shot him – suddenly it was clear she was his enemy all the time and that explained her previous strange disregard of Sherlock.

Under that mask of fake friendliness she probably feared him like hell. Just imagine being at her place – your boyfriend proposes you, you are sure you can settle down with him and escape your dark past, when unexpectedly that creepy man (who should be dead for two years) pops out of nowhere and inserts himself into your life like some annoying limpet. And he is not only your rival who takes half of John′s heart from you – he is also the most observant man of this world and a detective on top of all that. From that moment it is not just a possibility but a certainty that he will reveal the truth about you very soon.

What a luck for Mary that Sherlock was completely sidetracked by John′s violent hysterics that evening and didn′t pay that much attention to her. She was also extremely clever to offer her help to Sherlock, acting like his supporter. If she tried to separate him from John immediately, she would arouse his suspicion much sooner. In that manner she was able to neutralise that danger for some time, yet Sherlock surely was a thorn in her side all along. As was revealed via his mind palace, subconciously he was always aware that she is a liar, he was just momentarily blinded by her apparent frienship.

So when he gave her the reason to get rid of him by walking on her in CAM′s office she shot him without much remorse and she aimed to kill.

As to why she chose to shoot him into his chest rather than the head – even as an experienced assassin she still could be seen by somebody when leaving CAM′s office and her presence there or her deed could still be revealed to John. In that case she could pretend she just panicked and shot Sherlock accidentaly with no intent to kill him. Headshot would reveal her as a cold-blooded murderer immediately. She was protecting herself not saving Sherlock when she decided to pierce his liver not his head with a bullet. She probably called an ambulance for similar reasons (if she called it at all). And by wounding Sherlock mortally but not killing him on the spot she also bound John to his side, so that John remained with him in CAM′s office and didn′t pursue her.

Sherlock′s allegations that Mary saved his life and that she „performed surgery“ on him are deliberate lies. Sherlock knows all too well that Mary intended to kill him: every vision he has in his mind palace and every person inhabiting his inner world assure him that he will die (and he dies indeed). While in hospital he has scary visions about her and she even threatens him in person: „Sherlock, don′t tell John...“ Every single thing tells him that Mary will try again and finish him off, this time for real.

It is for his own safety as well as John′s when he reveals Mary′s true face in Leicester Gardens to John. She has no further reason to make attempt on his life anymore if John knows the truth. And John is now informed about the danger arising from Mary, thus being able to see her for what she really is and defend himself if necessary.

Sherlock then deliberately shields Mary by claiming that she saved his life. By that deed he gives John a chance to decide if he wants to continue his marrige, but he is not influencing him with the fact that his wife shot his best friend. He probably also feels some pity for Mary who stupidly alienated him when it would be wiser to ask for his help.

(Personally, I think writers used the plot of canonical „Adventure of the Second Stain“ here. Lady Hilda, a heroine of that story, stole an important government document from her husband and gave it to the blackmailer because „her husband would stop loving her if he knew about her past“ (some compromising letter). She is abhorrently selfish in this, because the stolen document could cause war with ten thousands victims and its disappearance could also destroy her husbands career. But Lady Hilda apparently sets her own happiness over all that. Holmes finally forces her to give up the document restored from the blackmailer but after that he takes pity on her and sneakily returns the document into her husband′s dispatch box. He then lies to the husband that nothing at all happened and that the document was in husband′s possession all the time. If Holmes told him the truth he would irreparably damage his marriage and probably end his career anyway. Sherlock however, althrough he appears cold and calculating, is much more compasionate than people generally think.)

Hear, hear. :-) Nice comment.

I enjoyed this post too and it makes perfect sense apart from one aspect.

If Sherlock knew that Mary had tried to kill him, that she really was that dangerous and would stop at nothing to get what she wanted, why the hell would he allow his best friend to stay with her?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.

Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

Unless there is an ulterior motive...he's playing a game.It would be a very dangerous game, but there may be a big prize.Or just possibly, she has recanted and hencefoth is going to be sweetness and light!

Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

Swanpride wrote:

Again: If she had intended to kill him, he were dead. She is a professional, after all.

I suppose you could argue that she intended to wound him mortally rather than kill him on the spot. That way she would ensure that John is going to be occupied trying to save Sherlock rather than give chace. The one problem with this theory is that why she called for an ambulance. However she might have not. An avrage time for an ambulance is 8 minutes but there is nothing to say that there wasn't a crew stationed just round the corner and able to resbond to John's call much quicker.