I had an interesting though this morning, so I'm sending it out to bounce round the list collective conciousness. Besides, it makes a change from all the EH weirdness! Here goes:

The original COVENANT deep one specimens were (and still are) stored at YY-II, but back in 1947 MJ-12 also began storing Grey (and perhaps other alien races) there as well. With the abolition of DG as an official entity, what happened to the deep one specimens?

What I'm trying to say is this: Presumably YY-II is split into 2 sections - one controlled by MJ-12 for their alien storage programme, and one (smaller?) section responsible for the curation of the deep ones (and presumably still using the old COVENANT classification).

So, is MJ-12 aware of the deep ones? I suspect that this is the case (or perhaps _was_ the case) due to the initial recruitment of DG personnel into MJ-12 after Roswell. Whether the current MJ-12 heirachy is aware of them is unknown (after all, the early ex-DG MJ-12 personnel would have probably retired a long time ago). This is actually quite important in practical terms. If MJ-12 is unaware of the nature of the COVENANT unit at YY-II, then it may be possible for DG agents to get access to the COVENANT specimens (provided of course that they could get hold of the correct COVENANT clearances from the ONI - remember that according to the SEAGATE documents in the DG book, COVENANT is still an active classification). Of course, if MJ-12 is aware of what COVENANT really is (particularly in realtion to it's DG connections), there could be standing orders in place to arrest (or worse) anyone trying to access the COVENANT materials. In fact, is it possible that the COVENANT programme could be ressurected (perhaps semi-officially) by the ONI as a sort of back door reactivation of DG? The risks involved in this could be pretty big, however.

Assuming that MJ-12 knows what is in the COVENANT section of YY-II, what do they think the specimens really are? Would they buy into the occult ramifications of the deep ones, or merely assume (perhaps with Grey encouragement) that they are "just another alien race"? Not only that, but are MJ-12 actively researching technologies derived from deep one genetics/metabolism? [this could provide for some really heavy duty scenarios… think of all the fun stuff that could happen if agents think they are chasing deep one hybrids and suddenly NRO-DELTA turn up in black choppers to recapture… sorry, rescue their enhanced colleagues].

Finally, if there are still ex-DG personnel active in MJ-12 what does this mean? Obviously MJ-12 knows that DG is still (illegally) active (take Fairfield and Groversville as examples), but if they also know about the deep ones (not to mention other horrors… Karotechia perhaps) then would MJ-12 actively oppose all DG operations? I would suggest not, although if salvageable alien technologies or the Greys are involved then obviously MJ-12 will be very aggressive in their actions. But most of the time DG could be treated as a small annoyance and generally tolerated by MJ-12 (not aided of course, but perhaps used to "scout out" things that MJ-12 would like to get it's grasping hands on). This may actually imply that DG has already been infiltrated by MJ-12. Not a nice thought.

Anyway, comments? Is this line of reasoning worth pursuing? Anyone?

From: "gable"

Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 16:51:11 -0500

Taking a cue from Joseph Curwen, I say to you, Graeme Price: do not call up that which ye cannot put downe! —

Ooh. nasty idea, and one I hadn't considered. Are there Star-Spawn of Cthulhu at ICE CAVE?

MACHINATIONS OF THE MI-GO says that Majestic has had contact with 15 alien races, both extraterrestrial and terrestrial. Which ones? Well, the Greys, the Mi-Go (they consider them two species), the Shan, the Deep Ones, and then this is where it enters into speculation. I'd hazard to say some Cthulhi (hey, at least Lumley gave Cthulhu's spawn a kewl name), the Elder Things, probably Byakhee, and maybe a Shoggoth or two. Any other suggestions? The list isn't even close to 15.

Of course they are. The DG book says so. They think they're another extraterrestrial race, however. As to their being aware of the Deep Ones at ICE CAVE, they probably are. Although, as you point out, the original Majestic personnel kept at ICE CAVE have probably retired or died, the current Steering Committee may have gotten a hold of some documents by their predecessors, maybe even detailing what the Deep Ones were, in actuality.

I'm betting though, that Majestic, in its Grey-controlled form, is chalking that up to "theory and nonsense" and prefers to think that the COVENANT project was launched after a sort of oceanic Roswell. Probably to Majestic the Deep Ones are just EBEs that've been here a long time. The Majestic group's left ICE CAVE alone for quite some time (maybe), although it's possible that Delta Green has procured the facility. Or maybe Majestic still maintains an active presence at ICE CAVE. Live or dead, the Deep Ones stored there would be valuable research tools, and maybe Kroft (MJ-1) is attempting some Deep One-tinged gene therapy to keep him alive. Or maybe ICE CAVE could be used as the staging ground for a massive Delta Green-Majestic showdown (which would also create a PR nightmare…how do you explain two factions of the U.S. Government fighting over a patch of desert land in New Mexico?

Hmm. A neat scenario could be made out of this very idea, throwing in the Dogon/Nommo legends and the myth of Oannes (ichthyan space-men help humankind)as red herrings.

according to the SEAGATE documents in the DG book, COVENANT is still an active
classification).

I knew Scully's Navy brother was up to something! :-)

Good idea! Possibly. If the experimentation by Kroft listed above takes place, and Kroft became essentially a Deep One hybrid with inside knowledge of governmental workings, when it came time for The Change, he could return to the Deep Ones and become maybe some sort of Deep One battle leader and lead an all-out assault by the Deep Ones upon the U.S./Delta Green. Delta Green's then reactivated, becoming America's first line of defense. All the while DG & MJ are fighting over ICE CAVE…ooh. Nice little idea.

Imagine when New York City becomes a metropolitan version of Innsmouth, decaying and decrepit and all. Oh, wait, it already is. :-)

Hmm. This kinda gets in the anatomy of a Deep One…are they mammals, reptiles, amphibians, fish, what? (My guess is mammalian [after all, they can interbreed with people] with a lot of herpeto-ichthyan characteristics.) Maybe MJ-12 can find some regenerative qualities…other than that, Deep One DNA (DODNA?) could be useful for anti-aging and immortality techniques. Which makes it all the more likely Justin Kroft'd be interested in this.

BTW, there was an X-Files episode, first season, which dealt with this kind of thing. Some doctor interested in anti-aging was testing this stuff at a prison, as I remember. Except he used salamander DNA. The episode wasn't great, but the idea was good.

Another question Graeme didn't address: what's the Grey/Mi-Go status with the Deep Ones? They're evidently aware of each other (some contactees get the Contact Deep One spell), but are they allies or enemies? Or just aware?

From: Christian Conkle
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 14:24:54 -0800

Another question Graeme didn't address: what's the Grey/Mi-Go status with the Deep Ones? They're evidently aware of each other (some contactees get the Contact Deep One spell), but are they allies or enemies? Or just aware? ««<

I would hazard to speculate that they are opposed to each other's goals.

I've always viewed the Sky-Devils as wanting to postpone the GOO's return to Earth as long as they can, allowing them to keep mining Earth. To whit, they manipulated human genetic code early on to prevent us from developing our true psychic potential and being in close contact with the GOOs. Sort of like recognizing that apes could one day talk and build nuclear bombs, so you remove the ability for that species to develop language. Of course, the Kn'Yan recognized what was going on so they removed themselves from the Sky-Devils' reach, either to vaults within the earth or to alternate dimension, whatever. That's why they have all these nifty neato psychic powers. That's also why the Kn'Yan worship the GOOs and wish to bring about their return.

Well, the Deep Ones are basically aquatic equivalents to the Kn'Yan. They want to bring Cthulhu et. al. back. This would be counter to the Fun Guys' efforts. At least for a while. As such, the Fungi are probably at odds with the efforts of the Deep Ones. Not so much in general, but just to their efforts at hastening the return of the GOOs.

I'm not suggesting the Fungis' don't want to bring back the GOO's at all, they do. They just want some extra time to get done with whatever projects they're working on. They just want to postpone the return of the GOOs.

Deep One: "Let's do Lunch."

Fun Guy: "Not right now, I'm busy."

Deep One: "You don't want to have lunch? I'm hungry."

Fun Guy: "I didn't say that, I do want to have lunch, but I'm kinda busy right now. How about later?"

Deep One: "Later's not a good time, how about right now?"

Fun Guy: "Look, if you have lunch now, it'll ruin what I'm working on. Isn't there any way we can have lunch later?"

Deep One: "No, I'm hungry and I want to have lunch!"

Fun Guy: "Dammit, No! I'm telling you.. HEY! Knock that off!"

scuffle, bump, crash, tink.

Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 20:23:34 -0500

From: Steven Kaye

As per the book, they're still there - just catatonic.

There's a very silly Derleth story - "The Survivor," in THE WATCHERS OUT OF TIME - which has a mad surgeon extend his lifespan by surgically altering himself into a crocodilian human. Add this with the case history on the DG website about the unnaturally fast-healing MJ mooks and stand back!

Hmm. MJ-12 would love to have people inside DG, and vice-versa. One wonders what kind of protocols Justin Kroft/Alphonse has in place for the defector from DG/MJ-12 that claims he/she can't stomach what he/she's done and wants to be with the good guys for a change. It's too good to reject out of hand - I suspect a long-term evaluation and recruiting process, similar to that carried out for friendlies, but of much longer duration (and doubtless entailing more intense surveillance on the 'candidate') would be justified.

CONSPIRACY X had some government agencies which were neutral ground - both the Black Book and Aegis had agents in place, because the agencies were too useful for either side to blow the other's cover. This might be true in some DG campaigns as well.

Definitely.

Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 20:34:24 -0500

From: Steven Kaye

The Traveler. Possibly Astral Parasites and the Thief of Form from GOLDEN DAWN, assuming I'm interpreting hints about the Philadelphia Experiment from Alphonse and others correctly. Do Tcho-Tcho count as an alien race?

In one of his drafts of "The Shadow Over Innsmouth," Lovecraft considered making Deep Ones an atavism to which humans could revert, similar to ghouls. No interbreeding in one's tree required. I always wanted to use this idea in a campaign - toss it in with "The Mound" (in which the K'n-Yan dwellers claim they were brought down from the stars with Tulu), and do something spectacularly unpleasant to players' heads with the knowledge that Humanity itself was a Mythos race.

Dear God, first season and already Chris Carter was ripping off "The Alligator People"?

Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 23:26:29 -0500 (EST)

From: The Man in Black

MACHINATIONS OF THE MI-GO says that Majestic has had contact with 15 alien
races, both extraterrestrial and terrestrial. Which ones? Well, the Greys,
the Mi-Go (they consider them two species), the Shan, the Deep Ones, and
then this is where it enters into speculation. I'd hazard to say some
Cthulhi (hey, at least Lumley gave Cthulhu's spawn a kewl name), the Elder
Things, probably Byakhee, and maybe a Shoggoth or two. Any other
suggestions? The list isn't even close to 15.

The Traveler Parasite.

Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:00:27 +0100
From: Davide Mana

IIRC, ever since the beginning of the MJ franchise, there was a not so hidden distaste between DeltaGreeners and Majestics - the Majestic gang was hot on the trail of some pretty hard science from outer space, and the occult trappings of DG were seen as something out of the past, and still belonging there.

I would not be surprised to discover that at least the bulk of the COVENANT material was never shown to the MJ guys - Delta Green beeing pretty secretive and paranoid even back then. Probably our predecessors just gave the MJ guys enough data about Deep Ones to grant an assignation of funds to keep on studying that "alien race". In short, let's not underestimate the survival instincts of the old, legit Delta Green.

Very very likely.
Double assets are not an unheard of thing in this line of work.
Do not let your left hand etc.

As I said, probably just through a minimum of COVENANT stuff that was handled them as a bait. MJ is essentially materialistic - do you think they'd buy an alien race that has to be contacted by chanting a spell by the sea?

I suspect that part was kept from them, or they dismissed it as "speculation based upon unverified assumptions". This does not mean, of course that a particularly inquisitive majestic man could not go and dig up all the stuff again, through an inter-departmental investigation or even something less official - something like an MJ Mulder/Loengard.

This has not happened yet - I guess - as MJ-12 does not seem to encourage or nurture overinquisitiveness in its lower/medium echelons.

I see two limitations to the idea of MJ constantly opposing DG

a - even given their past actions (Uncle Reggie etc.) Majestic does not know the full extent and current potential of Delta Green - hopefully. I think they underestiomate us, and would like for them to keep underestimating us.

b - sometimes your adversaries can work for you.

While the goals (and focuses) of DG and MJ are almost mutually exclusive, on a smaller scale we sometimes work in the same direction. When this happens, the active entity is given a free hand and the passive stands on the side and looks.

But most of the time DG

Exactly what I meant.

Or that they are keeping an eye on some of our own shows.
On the other hand, we're doing the same with them, and their structure is much more open to infiltration.

Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 00:23:17 +1100
From: Rob Shankly

I think MJ-12 know that Ghouls exist, although there probably has been little if any contact with them.

In addition, I think they may have "lost" an operative or two over the years to the Great Race. The strange behaviour of the "translated" person would almost certainly be noticed, perhaps leading MJ12 to researching similar occurances in history.

Serpent Men? Maybe there's one stored in the next freezer over from the Deep Ones?

Other possibilities include DYSN (they seem to turn up as "temple guards" in a lot of published scenarios), Nightgaunts and Fire Vampires.

Finally, MJ12 *must* have encountered a Colour Out of Space at some time or other. I'm not sure if they would see it as an EBE or as some kind of radiation (I think this is more likely if they came upon the aftermath of a CooS visitation).

MACHINATIONS OF THE MI-GO says that Majestic has had contact with 15 alien
races, both extraterrestrial and terrestrial. Which ones? Well, the Greys,
the Mi-Go (they consider them two species), the Shan, the Deep Ones, and
then this is where it enters into speculation. I'd hazard to say some
Cthulhi (hey, at least Lumley gave Cthulhu's spawn a kewl name), the Elder
Things, probably Byakhee, and maybe a Shoggoth or two. Any other
suggestions? The list isn't even close to 15.

Back to DYSN: does anyone remember the Crinoid (sp?) from an episode of Dr.Who (The Seeds of Doom?); this was a giant, intelligent carnivorous plant, capable of awaking dangerous sentience in other plants…

Scenario Seed: Federal agents called in to deal with mysterious dissapearance of hikers/hunters in semi-wilderness area. Nearby buildings are a biological research institute staffed by mad scientist type determined to breed a race of intelligent plants; these will conquer the world and usher in an age of "green friendly" peaceful civilisation. The madman might be basing his plant genetics on a pet DYSN, which he is feeding straying humans. Or maybe he's simply shooting and burying trespassers.

Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 13:30:42 +0000
From: Phil Ward

Scenario Seed: Majestic has copies of summon-sound spells stored
at a KYBF radio station, a front organisation where much of there sound
analysis takes place. A burglar (perhaps backed by the FATE) breaks in and
steals the KYBF record collection, including the sound equivalent of
"Summon Deep One" The collection finds its way onto the black market and an
up-and-coming rave group hears the Summon Deep One groove and decides to
sample it for the next record. DG learns of this (somehow) and has to stop the
record before it becomes a big hit.

Heh, nice :)

OK: KYBF is in fact an NSA front, and the large ariels they use are also wired up as listening posts… probably out in the desert somewhere, miles from anywhere. MJ-12 has some connections and uses the for analysis, because you need some serious processing power for some of that stuff.

Underneath we have some buried super computers, a small response team in case, and highly trained operatives that just happen to look like truckers, etc.

Maybe a small diner over the other side of the highway so vehicles can be parked outside and not raise too much suspicion.

The burglar is a fate dupe, but breaks free of his control, or is robbed himself, perhaps by loan sharks, etc, and the recording make their way out onto the black market.

DG here about it when one small part of a tape is played on pirate radio, and someone with the summon deep one spell recognises the chant. Perhaps DG here a snippet of a summon grey tape, and find the similarities …disturbing…

From: Shane Ivey

Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 00:52:49 EDT

« NOTE: HEY~! Howcum no one comments on this stuff? What does everyone like or dislike about this Brilliant Display of My Genius (TM) ? What about comments on Emerald Hammer or some of the other depravity-dripping slices of madness from my fevered imagination that I've posted this week? »

Fuckin' awesome. If my players would quit reading I'd be springing a bunch of this stuff on them already. (In fact, a couple of the items are a little close to stuff I was already planning on springing on 'em.)

Loved the dolphins. A few months ago I read a book that purported to be a scholarly history of the SEALs, which devoted a paragraph to a Vietnam program which used specially-trained dolphins to sniff out and sabotage mines and enemy divers. They were said to have equipped some of the dolphins with one- shot pressurized air cannisters attached to impact tubes which were affixed to their snouts: this was a weapon to take out an enemy diver quickly and quietly by ramming him and inflating. It quoted a kill rate of something like 99%. Greenpeace must have loved it.

The thought of Deep Ones screwing dolphins is strangely almost as disturbing as the thought of them screwing humans. Then I start laughing at the image. Weird.

Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 12:22:39 -0400
Subject: DG: Dolphins

Shane wrote:

Actually I suspect that MiB is showing his extensive background reading with this one. There is a mythos story called the "Deep Ones" (can't remember the author offhand, but I can look it up unless anyone else has the data off the top of their head)

Anyways, IIRC (last read said story about 2 years ago, so excuse any innacuracies) this story basically involves a marine biology research centre, a sceptical researcher, a shunned genius, his deep one hybrid female research assistant, a trained dolphin, a tribe of hippies and some LSD (hey, sounds like the average day at work for me!). Plot is something like this: female RA is a deep one hybrid (she doesn't know it) who is the only person to be able to communicate with the dolphin. Dolphin describes weird alien cities beneath the sea etc. researcher takes LSD and passes out in dolphin's pool. Then begins the change into a full deep one. Meanwhile she discovers she is pregnant (and that the dolphin is the father…. kinky, but never mind the details [Just remembered, in fact in real life there was a guy who was arrested, tried and even convicted for molesting dolphins whilst swimming with them. It was 2-3 years ago now. Wish I still had the data on that… must try to go through my internet news sources and find it!]). Anyway, can't remember where the hippies fitted in exactly - I think they may have been trying to get the dolhin released. Evantually, Deep One releases the Dolphin and they swim off together into the sunset (aah!) [later to become fodder for Agent DARREN ;-)].

The way the story ran was that the dolphins and Deep Ones were in league somehow. Slightly contradicts MiB's version, but if you want to use it perhaps you can assume that there are 2 dolphin factions? I was considering ripping the whole thing off for a DG scenario (the story is pretty obscure as I rememeber… not by any of the mainstream Mythos fiction writers: it appeared in a UK published paperback collection of mythos short stories a couple of years back: details tommorow).

Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 14:35:46 -0400
From: Steven Kaye

Graeme Price wrote, responding to Shane's comment of:

with the following:

"The Deep Ones", by James Wade, is the story Graeme's thinking of. It was in the older UK edition of TALES OF THE CTHULHU MYTHOS (Grafton, has a Grendel-like thing eating a woman on the cover). Robert Price reprinted it recently in Chaosium's THE INNSMOUTH CYCLE. Daniel Harms' invaluable ENCYCLOPEDIA CTHULHIANA also mentions dolphin-Deep One hybrids in an Edward P. Berglund short story, "The Sand Castle" (I'm assuming it's online, I can track down publication details if needed).

Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 16:12:20 -0400 (EDT)

From: The Man in Black

On Sat, 24 Oct 1998, Independant Counsel Graeme Price released the following statement to the press:

Actually I suspect that MiB is showing his extensive background reading
with this one. There is a mythos story called the "Deep Ones" (can't
remember the author offhand, but I can look it up unless anyone else has
the data off the top of their head)

Actually, I looked it up while reading the perturbing Encyclopedia Cthulhiana - hint: it's in the "L" section - and kinda based on the spell "Summon Dolphin" from Cthulhu Now and Escape from Innsmouth.

I figure some dolphins (the pure strain) dislike being summoned enough to go to war, and some (hybrids) like it just fine. It's "The Shadow Over Flipper" :)

"Deep Ones" sounds like a love story for Furvert variant dolphin fetishists. Not that there's anything wrong with sexual attraction between two consenting sentient beings mind you, even fantasy sentient beings…

…EXCEPT THE REALITY DEVIANCE~! DON'T YOU FOOLS REALIZE THAT THE NEPHANDI AND MARAUDERS CAPTIALIZE ON YOUR FOUL PERVERSION~?

[cortex emulation : behavior alteration]

[neurodata attachment : repentance.o]

[MODE: sentience/subconscious]

From: "Scott Lavers"

Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 01:17:21 +0100

Several years ago I read a near-future sci-fi book but unfortunately I cant remember the name (life during wartime?) that dealt with a war in central america, the most interesting parts of the book dealt with the US special forces troops who were using a combat drug codemnamed 'SAMURAI', the drug boosted reflexes and senses to near superhuman degrees, although it had terrible side effects. Users initally had no problems, but prolonged use of the drug led to severe hallucinations of a spiritual nature, units went rogue living in the jungle and formed a religion that worshipped the rays of light breaking through the jungle canopy, it also led a beserk combat sense, the users only recognizing members of their immediate unit. These special forces personnel attacked enemy and regular US units alike with no mercy or discrimination. The favorite pastime of the enhanced troopers was fighting in a pit unarmed against jaguars.

The other interesting aspect was the gunship pilots, the helicopters were cyber driven, the pilots being plugged in to the controls via their helmets making them 'at one' with their machines. This led to them being more and more isolated from the real world to the point that they couldnt take their equipment off, when out of their machines they refused to take off the gear so no-one ever got to see their faces, and they couldnt leave their gunships for anything but the briefest of times. The link they had with the machines led to them developing psi-powers of danger-sense and precognition. Sorry if this is a little off subject but reading these posts just reminded me of the book. Also a good source for bio-weapons and creatures is a game called 'SLA INDUSTRIES'.

Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 14:38:25 -0700
From: Scott Cleverdon

I can think of only one thing "publish and be damned".

Fantastic stuff. Succint and with the perfect flavour that we've all come to know and love.

Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 08:32:34 +0000
From: Phil Ward

> Several years ago I read a near-future sci-fi book but unfortunately I cant
> remember the name (life during wartime?) that dealt with a war in central
> america,

This sounds slightly familiar - Lucius Shepard, IIRC, in ASIMOV'S, from
years back. Don't recall much (pitfighting vs. jaguars?), but then I
remember I liked the cover illo best of it.. <G>

Definitely Lucius Sheppard, the book was great, and I definitely remember the protagonist watching a pit-fight versus a jaguar, some guy on Sammy, nasty stuff.

There was a tribe of lost soldiers out in the jungle who had a large supply of the drug, had taken it forever and stopped sleeping.

A _really_ good novel, even though it felt a lot like Apocaplypse now.

BTW Doesn't alien intelligence have something on the cover like "handbook for new mutants = Lucius Sheppard?"

==MJ12 Personnel as of 1953==

The Eisenhower letter is dated late 1952; this is adapted from a d20 Modern campaign that begins with Ike's inauguration.