Having read Ajahn Brahm's book, Mindfulness, Bliss and Beyond, this question keeps haunting me. With parinibbana described as the remainder-less cessation of everything, what is the difference between that and annihilation? I understand that as long as you're subject to rebirth, annihilation is wrong view. What I don't understand is how the results are different when you're no longer subject to rebirth. Everything ceases, right? The flame is extinguished, out, gone. It didn't go anywhere, it's just gone. So, how is this different from annihilation?

Regards: AdvaitaJ

The birds have vanished down the sky. Now the last cloud drains away.We sit together, the mountain and me, until only the mountain remains. Li Bai

AdvaitaJ wrote:Having read Ajahn Brahm's book, Mindfulness, Bliss and Beyond, this question keeps haunting me. With parinibbana described as the remainder-less cessation of everything, what is the difference between that and annihilation? I understand that as long as you're subject to rebirth, annihilation is wrong view. What I don't understand is how the results are different when you're no longer subject to rebirth. Everything ceases, right? The flame is extinguished, out, gone. It didn't go anywhere, it's just gone. So, how is this different from annihilation?

Regards: AdvaitaJ

Annihilation is from clinging, so reguarding form as self, when that goes "I" go and same for feeling, consciousness etc

The truth is they are all not-self, when form "dies" its just form ending, when consciousness "dies" its just consciousness ending. There is no "I" dying or no "craig" dying, since this is just wrong view in reguards to the aggregates (ignorant of what they are, not-self)

An important Sutta to reflect on when this questions arises is this (i feel anyway you may find a better one)

"And suppose someone were to ask you, 'This fire that has gone out in front of you, in which direction from here has it gone? East? West? North? Or south?' Thus asked, how would you reply?"

"That doesn't apply, Master Gotama. Any fire burning dependent on a sustenance of grass and timber, being unnourished — from having consumed that sustenance and not being offered any other — is classified simply as 'out' (unbound)."

"Even so, Vaccha, any physical form by which one describing the Tathagata would describe him: That the Tathagata has abandoned, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Freed from the classification of form, Vaccha, the Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard to fathom, like the sea. 'Reappears' doesn't apply. 'Does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Both does & does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Neither reappears nor does not reappear' doesn't apply.

"Any feeling... Any perception... Any mental fabrication...

"Any consciousness by which one describing the Tathagata would describe him: That the Tathagata has abandoned, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Freed from the classification of consciousness, Vaccha, the Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard to fathom, like the sea. 'Reappears' doesn't apply. 'Does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Both does & does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Neither reappears nor does not reappear' doesn't apply."

"And so, Anuradha — when you can't pin down the Tathagata as a truth or reality even in the present life — is it proper for you to declare, 'Friends, the Tathagata — the supreme man, the superlative man, attainer of the superlative attainment — being described, is described otherwise than with these four positions: The Tathagata exists after death, does not exist after death, both does & does not exist after death, neither exists nor does not exist after death'?"

The Buddha isnt form, isnt perception etc so if you cant identify or pin him down in this life, how can you do so after the aggregates break apart? If one says he is eternal after death this is identifying the buddha with either form, perception, volition, feeling or consciousness, if one holds he is annihilated, this is also identifying with form, perception, volition, feeling or consciousness. All of which are not-self and so not the buddha (or any of "us" for that matter)

This is one of the reasons why nibbana and parinibbana are beyond our range of concepts since in our unenlightend state we are thinking in terms of conditonality, of "me" "mine" and "self", eternalism or annihilationism

Annihilation and eternalism and two sides of the same coin, they both come from clinging to one or more of the aggregates as "me" its just they differ in their speculative view of what happens after death

So the Fundamentalist Christian and the Materialist Scientist actually have one thing in common, they both cling to one or more of the aggregates as self, they just differ in their speculation on what happens when life ends

cessation

This is a tricky word, another term that fits with the original pali word is "quenching"

so "cesstation of dukkha"

can be also read "quenching of dukka"

Hope this helps

Metta

He who binds to himself a joyDoes the wingèd life destroy;But he who kisses the joy as it fliesLives in eternity's sunrise.

I had a bit of a discussion with RobK a few years ago about this. It's a bit long, but mainly Scriptural quotes:=========================================================================================================================================================================Hello all,

Often on discussion lists people talk about Nibbaana as if it is similar to the Christian heaven, or a sort of Ground of all Being. They ask: Is Nibbana a place or a feeling or annihilation/extinction or something else? If it is not annihilation (because there never was a self to be annihilated in the first place) ~ does this mean 'we' go through all these millions of life-times of hard work to simply 'stop'? Why bother? ... why not aim for making merit and obtaining supremely happy rebirths?

I went back to the Abhidhamma teachings to try to sort this out for myself. What do others think?

Nibbaana is termed supramundane, and is to be realized by the knowledge of the four paths. It becomes an object to the paths and fruits, and is called Nibbaana because it is a departure from craving, which is an entanglement.

Guide to # 30

Nibbaana is termed supramundane: The concluding section of this chapter deals briefly with the fourth ultimate reality, Nibbaana. Etymologically, the word nibbaana - the Pali form of the better known Sanskrit nirvaa.na - is derived from a verb Nibbaati meaning "to be blown out" or "to be extinguished". It thus signifies the extinguishing of the worldly "fires" of greed, hatred, and delusion. But the Pali commentators prefer to treat it as the negation of, or "departure from" (nikkhantatta), the entanglement (vaana) of craving, the derivation which is offered here. For as long as one is entangled by craving, one remains bound in sa.msaara, the cycle of birth and death; but when all craving has been extirpated, one attains Nibbaana, deliverance from the cycle of birth and death.

Though Nibbaana is onefold according to its intrinsic nature, by reference to a basis (for distinction), it is twofold, namely, the element of Nibbaana with the residue remaining, and the element of Nibbaana without the residue remaining. It is threefold according to its different aspects, namely, void, signless,and desireless.

Guide to #31

Though Nibbaana is onefold according to its intrinsic nature, etc.:Nibbaana is a single undifferentiated ultimate reality. It is exclusively supramundane, and has one intrinsic nature (sabhaava), which is that of being the unconditioned deathless element totally transcendent to the conditioned world. Nevertheless, by reference to a basis for distinction, Nibbaana is said to be twofold. The basis for distinction is the presence or absence of the five aggregates. The element of Nibbaana as experienced by Arahants is called "with the residue remaining" (sa-upaadisesa) because, though the defilements have all been extinguished, the "residue" of aggregates acquired by past clinging remains through the duration of the Arahant's life. The element of Nibbaana attained with the Arahant's demise is called that "without the residue remaining" (anupaadisesa), because the five aggregates are discarded and are never acquired again. The two elements of Nibbaana are also called, in the Commentaries, the extinguishment of the defilements (kilesa-parinibbaana) and the extinguishment of the aggregates (khandha-parinibbaana).

It is threefold according to its different aspects: Nibbaana is called the void (su~n~nata) because it is devoid of greed, hatred, and delusion, and because it is devoid of all that is conditioned. It is called signless (animitta) because it is free from the signs of greed, etc., and free from the signs of all conditioned things. It is called desireless (appa.nihita) because it is free from the hankering of greed, etc., and because it is not desired by craving.

Great seers who are free from craving declare that Nibbaana is an objective state which is deathless, absolutely endless, unconditioned, and unsurpassed.Thus as fourfold the Tathaagatas reveal the ultimate realities - consciousness, mental factors, matter, and Nibbaana.

Iti Abhidhammatthasangahe rūpa-sangahavibhāgo nāma Chattho Paricchedo

Thus ends the sixth chapter in the Manual of Abhidhamma entitled the Compendium of Matter."

mettaChristine---The trouble is that you think you have time--- Posted by: RobertK May 8 2006, 09:46 PMExcellent definitions Christine. WE can use this thread for adding more Theravada quotes and explanations of Nibbana.

A. III. 32This, truly, is Peace, this is the Highest, namely the end ofall Karma formations, the forsaking of every substratum ofrebirth, the fading away of craving. detachment, extinction,Nibbaana.

A. I. 15And it is impossible that a being possessed of rightunderstanding should regard anything as the Self.

Ud. VIII. 1Truly, there is a realm, where there is neither the solid, northe fluid, neither heat, nor motion, neither this world, nor anyother world, neither sun nor moon.This I call neither arising, nor passing away, neither standingstill, nor being born, nor dying. There is neither foothold, nordevelopment, nor any basis. This is the end of suffering.

S. XXII. 30Hence the annihilation, cessation and overcoming ofcorporeality, feeling, perception, mental formations, andconsciousness: this is the extinction of suffering, the end ofdisease, the overcoming of old age and death. (endsutta)

robert

Posted by: RobertK May 8 2006, 10:18 PMThere are two types of nibbana. Thefirst saupaadisesa-nibbaana,(`Nibbaana with the khandas stillremaining')which pertains while an arahant is still alive. Inthis case there is absolute eradication of all kilesa(defilements) upon attainment of arahantship (kilesa-parinibbana). Thus the round of kilesa and the round of kammais brought to an end. There is, however ,still the round ofvipaka (vipaka-vatthu) which doesn't cease untilkhandha-parinibbaana which takes place at the death of theArahat, called in the Suttas: `an-upaadisesa-nibbaana' i.e.`(Nibbaana without the khandas remaining)

The simile of the fire:The fuel is cravingand ignorance. The fire is nama and rupa (ie the khandas). Oncethat fuel is no longer being added (upon attainment of arahant)the fire will soon die out(parinibbana)Arahant is a term useful to designate a stream of nama and rupa(past, present or future) that no longer has avijja (and henceno other defilements).Before cuti citta(death moment) arises this stream is like afire where nomore fuel is added; at cuti citta the fire is finallyextinguished.

It is different for a non-arahant. The term non-arahant helpsto designate a stream of nama and rupa where avijja and otherdefilements keep arising. These are the fuel and it iscontinually being added to (moments of insight excepted). Whencuti citta arise for this stream the fire is simply passed toanother place and the process continues.robert

Posted by: RobertK May 8 2006, 10:41 PMBuddha and Arahant are conventional terms to designate streams ofnama and rupa that have erased avijja- ignorance. In the ultimatesense there are only the khandhas (aggregates) .i.e. citta, cetasikaand rupa, arising and passing away.Uopn the khandha parinibbana of the Buddha or arahant then citta andcetasika ceases to arise and the only rupa left is that of thephysical remains (relics), bits of bone and teeth etc whichgradually wear away.One difference between before khandha paribbinana and after, is thatbefore it is possible to speak, see and listen to the arahant andBuddha - if one is born in a time where they still live. Howeverafter the passing away no god or man can ever percieve the Buddha orarahant again.

Brahmajala sutta:""Monks, the body of the Tathgata stands with the link that boundit to becoming cut. As long as the body subsists, Devas and humanswill see him. But at the breaking-up of the body and the exhaustionof the life-span, Devas and humans will see him no more. Monks,just as when the stalk of a bunch of mangoes has been cut, all themangoes on it go with it, just so the Tathgata's link with becominghas been cut. As long as the body subsists, Devas and humans willsee him. But at the breaking-up of the body and the exhaustion ofthe life-span, Devas and humans will see him no more."

What happens to the individual who has attained nibbaana when he dies and his body is cremated? He is described as having gone into parinibbaana, i.e., nibbaana without any residue whatsoever of the khandhaa, the aggregates. Parinibbaana is nibbaana without corporeality, the transition of sorrowlessness into timelessness, changelessness, perfect peace. While nibbaana is still colored by the last dregs of individuality, parinibbaana is not so besmirched. It is a condition "where there is neither arising, nor passing away, nor dying; neither cause nor effect; neither change nor standing still."[10] And yet, it is not complete annihilation. When the Buddha was charged with being a nihilist, he said that nihilism was one of the extremes which he emphatically condemned. Even to the man of knowledge it has never been raised--the curtain that conceals the "other side." It is revealed only to him who has gone there. By no stretch of thinking can it be reached, because it lies beyond all thought.

According to the teaching of the Buddha, every man makes his own nibbaana and his own parinibbaana. All indeed lies in us: the entire world, with its arising and its passing away. As the beginning of the world is individual, so also is its ending.Posted by: RobertK Feb 22 2007, 08:56 PMFrom christinehttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastu ... sage/68734Bhikkhu Bodhi's Anthology of Discourses from the Paali Canon "In theBuddha's Words' p. 317/8/9 (ISBN 0-86171-491-1 ) I hope it can be areference for continuing the discussion.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~QUOTE IX,5 The Goal of Wisdom.The Four Noble Truths not only serve as the objective domain ofwisdom but also define its purpose, which is enshrined in the thirdnoble truth, the cessation of suffering. The cessation of sufferingis Nibbaana, and thus the goal of wisdom, the end toward which thecultivation of wisdom moves, is the attainment of Nibbaana. But whatexactly is meant by Nibbaana? The suttas explain Nibbaana in a numberof ways. Some, such as Text, 5 (1), define Nibbaana simply as thedestruction of lust, hatred, and delusion. Others, such as the seriescomprised in Text IX, 5 (2), employ metaphors and images to convey amore concrete idea of the ultimate goal. Nibbaana is still thedestruction of lust, hatred, and delusion, but as such it is, amongother things, peaceful, deathless, sublime, wonderful, and amazing.Such descriptions indicate that Nibbaana is a state of supremehappiness, peace, and freedom to be experienced in this present life."A few suttas, most notably a pair in the Udana - included here asTexts IX, 5 (3) and IX,m 5 (4) - suggest that Nibbaana is not simplythe destruction of defilements and an exalted feeling ofpsychological well-being. They speak of Nibbaana almost as if it werea transcendent state or dimension of being. Text IX, 5 (3) refers toNibbaana as a "base" (aayatana) beyond the world of common experiencewhere none of the physical elements or even the subtle formlessdimensions of experience are present; it is a state completelyquiescent, without arising, perishing, or change. Text IX, 5 (4)calls it the state that is "unborn, unmade, unbecome, [and]unconditioned: (ajaata.m, akata.m, abhuuta.m, asankhata.m), theexistence of which makes possible deliverance from all that is born,made, come-to-be, and conditioned.How are we to correlate these two perspectives on Nibbaana found inthe Nikaayas, one treating it as an experiential state of inwardpurity and sublime bliss, the other as an unconditioned statetranscending the empirical world? Commentators, both Buddhists andoutsiders, have tried to connect these two aspects of Nibbaana indifferent ways. Their interpretations generally reflect theproclivity of the interpreter as much as they do the textsthemselves. The way that seems most faithful to both aspects ofNibbaana delineated in the texts is to regard the attainment ofNibbaana as a state of freedom and happiness attained by realizing,with profound wisdom, the unconditioned and transcendent element thestate that is intrinsically tranquil and forever beyond suffering.The penetration of this element brings the destruction ofdefilements, culminating in complete purification of mind. Suchpurification is accompanied by the experience of perfect peace andhappiness in this present life. With the breakup of the body atphysical death, it brings irreversible release from the beginninglessround of rebirths.The suttas speak of two "elements of Nibbaana," the Nibbaana elementwith residue remaining (sa-upaadisesa-nibbaanadhaatu) and theNibbaana element without residue remaining (anupaadisesa-nibbaana-dhaatu). Text IX, 5 (5) explains the Nibbaana element with residueremaining to be the destruction of lust, hatred, and delusionattained by an arahant while still alive. The "residue" that remainsis the composite of the five aggregates that was brought into beingby the ignorance and craving of the past life and that must continueon until the end of the lifespan. As to the Nibbaana element withoutresidue remaining, the same text says only that when the arahantpasses away, all that is felt, not being delighted in, will becomecool right here. Since there is no more clinging to the fiveaggregates, and no more craving for fresh experience through a newset of aggregates, the occurrence of the aggregates comes to an endand cannot continue. The process of the five aggregatesis "extinguished" (the literal meaning of Nibbaana).The Buddha says nothing at all, however, in terms either of existenceor nonexistence, about the condition of the arahant after death. Itmight seem logical to suppose that since the five aggregates thatconstitute experience completely cease with the attainment of theNibbaana element without residue, this element must itself be a stateof complete nonexistence, a state of nothingness. Yet no text in theNikaayas ever states this. To the contrary, the Nikaayas consistentlyrefer to Nibbaana by terms that refer to actualities. It is anelement (dhaatu), a base (aayatana), a reality (dhamma), a state(pada), and so on. However, though so designated, it is qualified inways that indicate this state ultimately lies beyond all familiarcategories and concepts.

In Text IX, 5 (6), the wanderer Vacchagotta asks the Buddha whetherthe Tathaagata - here signifying one who has attained the supremegoal - is reborn (upapajjati) or not after death. The Buddha refusesto concede any of the four alternatives. To say that the Tathaagatais reborn, is not reborn, both is and is not reborn, neither is noris not reborn - none of these is acceptable, for all accept the termTathaagata as indicative of a real being, while from an internalpoint of view a Tathaagata has given up all clinging to notions of areal being. The Buddha illustrates this point with the simile of anextinguished fire. Just as a fire that has been extinguished cannotbe said to have gone anywhere but must simply be said to have "goneout", so with the breakup of the body the Tathaagata does not goanywhere but has simply "gone out". The past participle nibbuta, usedto describe a fire that has been extinguished, is related to the nounnibbaana, which literally means "extinguishing".Yet, if this simile suggests a Buddhist version ofthe "annihilationist" view of the arahant's fate after his demise,this impression would rest on a misunderstanding, on a wrongperception of the arahant as a "self" or "person" that isannihilated. Our problem is understanding the state of the Tathaagataafter death is c compounded by our difficulty in understanding thestate of the Tathaagata even while alive. The simile of the greatocean underscores this difficulty. Since the Tathaaata no longeridentifies with the five aggregates that constitute individualidentity, he cannot be reckoned in terms of them, whetherindividually or collectively. Freed from reckoning in terms of thefive aggregates, the Tathaagata transcends our understanding. Likethe great ocean, he is "deep, immeasurable, [and] hard to fathom."

5. THE GOAL OF WISDOM(1) What is Nibbaana?On one occasion the Venerable Saariputta was dwelling in Magadha atNaalakagaama. The wanderer Jambukhaadaka approached the VenerableSaariputta and exchanged greetings with him. When they had concludedtheir greetings and cordial talk, he sat down to one side and said tothe Venerable Saariputta:"Friend Saariputta, it is said, 'Nibbaana, Nibbaana.' What now isNibbaana?""The destruction of lust, the destruction of hatred, the destructionof delusion: this, friend, is called Nibbaana."But, friend, is that a path, is there a way for the realization ofthis Nibbaana?""There is a path, friend, there is a way for the realization of thisNibbaana.""And what, friend, is that path, what is that way for the realizationof this Nibbaana?""It is, friend, this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view, rightintention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, righteffort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is the path,friend, this is the way for the realization of this Nibbaana.""Excellent is the path, friend, excellent is the way for therealization of this Nibbaana. And it is enough, friend Saariputta,for diligence." (SN 38:1, IV 251-52)

(2) Thirty-Three Synonyms for Nibbaana"Monks, I will teach you the unconditioned and the path leading tothe unconditioned. Listen..."And what, monks, is the unconditioned? The destruction of lust, thedestruction of hatred, the destruction of delusion: this is calledthe unconditioned."Monks, I will teach you the uninclined...the taintless...thetruth...the far shore...the subtle...the very difficult to see...theunaging...the stable...the undisintegrating...the unmanifest...theunproliferated...the peaceful...the deathless...the sublime...theauspicious...the secure...the destruction of craving...thewonderful...the amazing...the unailing...the unailingstate...Nibbaana...theunafflicted...dispassion...purity...freedom...nonattachment...theisland...the shelter...the asylum...the refuge...the destination andthe path leading to the destination. Listen....'And what, monks, is the destination? The destruction of lust, thedestruction of hatred, the destruction of delusion: this is calledthe destination."And what , monks, is the path leading to the destination?Mindfulness directed to the body: this is called the path leading tothe destination."Thus, monks, I have taught you the unconditioned...the destinationand the path leading to the destination. Whatever should be done,monks, by a compassionate teacher out of compassion for hisdisciples, desiring their welfare, that I have done for you. Theseare the roots of trees, monks, these are empty huts. Meditate, monks,do not be negligent, lest you regret it later. This is my instructionto you." (SN 43:1-44, combined; IV 359-73)

(3) There is That BaseThus have I heard. At one time the Blessed One was dwelling atSaavatthii in Jeta's Grove, Anaathapi.n.dika's Park. Now on thatoccasion the Blessed One was instructing, rousing, inspiring, andgladdening the monks with a Dhamma talk connected with Nibbaana, andthose monks were receptive and attentive, concentrating their wholemind, intent on listening to the Dhamma.Then, on realizing its significance, the Blessed One on that occasionuttered this inspired utterance:"There is, monks, that base where there is neither earth, nor water,nor heat, nor air; neither the base of the infinity of space, nor thebase of the infinity of consciousness, nor the base of nothingness,nor the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception; neither thisworld nor another world; neither sun nor moon. Here, monks, I saythere is no coming, no going, no standing still; no passing away andno being reborn. It is not established, not moving, without support.Just this is the end of suffering."(Ud 8:1;80)

(4) The UnbornThus have I heard. At one time the Blessed One was dwelling atSaavatthii in Jeta's Grove, Anaathapi.n.dika's Park. Now on thatoccasion the Blessed One was instructing...the monks with a Dhammatalk connected with Nibbaana, and those monks were receptive...intent on listening to the Dhamma.Then, on realizing its significance, the Blessed One on that occasionuttered this inspired utterance:"There is, monks, an unborn, unbecome, unmade, unconditioned. If,monks, there were no unborn, unbecome, unmade, unconditioned, noescape would be discerned from what is born, become, made,conditioned. But because there is an unborn, unbecome, unmade,unconditioned, therefore an escape is discerned from what is born,become, made, conditioned." (Ud 8:3; 80-81)

(5) The Two Nibbaana Elements"There are, monks, these two Nibbaana elements. What are the two? TheNibbaana element with residue remaining and the Nibbaana elementwithout residue remaining."And what, monks, is the Nibbaana element with residue remaining?Here, a monk is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, who haslived the holy life, done what had to be done, aid down the burden,reached his own goal, utterly destroyed the fetters of existence, onecompletely liberated through final knowledge. However, his five sensefaculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what isagreeable and disagreeable, still feels pleasure and pain. It is thedestruction of lust, hatred, and delusion in him that is called theNibbaana element with residue remaining."And what, monks, is the Nibbaana element without residue remaining?Here, a monk is an arahant, ...one completely liberated through finalknowledge. For him, here in this very life, all that is felt, notbeing delighted in, will become cool right here. That, monks, iscalled the Nibbaana element without residue remaining."These, monks, are the two Nibbaana elements." (It 44;38)

(6) The Fire and the Ocean15. [The wanderer Vacchagotta asked the Blessed One:] "Then doesMaster Gotama hold any speculative view at all?""Vaccha, 'speculative view' is something that the Tathaagata has putaway. For the Tathaagata, Vaccha, has seen this: 'Such is form, suchits origin, such its passing away; such is feeling, such its origin,such its passing away; such is perception, such its origin, such itspassing away; such are volitional formations, such their origin, suchtheir passing away; such is consciousness, such its origin, such itspassing away; Therefore, I say, with the destruction, fading away,cessation, giving up, and relinquishing of all conceiving, allrumination, all I-making, mine-making, and the underlying tendency toconceit, the Tathaagata is liberated through not clinging.16. "When a monk's mind is liberated thus, Master Gotama, where is hereborn [after death]?""'Is reborn' does not apply, Vaccha.""Then he is not reborn, Master Gotama?""'Is not reborn' does not apply, Vaccha.""Then he both is reborn and is not reborn, Master Gotama?""'Both is reborn and is not reborn' does not apply, Vaccha.""Then he neither is reborn nor is not reborn, Master Gotama?'"'Neither is reborn nor is not reborn' does not apply, Vaccha.17. "When Master Gotama is asked these four questions, he replies:"'Is reborn" does not apply, Vaccha; "is not reborn" does not apply,Vaccha; "both is reborn and is not reborn" does not apply,Vaccha; "neither is reborn nor is not reborn: does not apply Vaccha.'Here I have fallen into bewilderment, Master Gotama, here I havefallen into confusion, and the measure of confidence I had gainedthrough previous conversation with Master Gotama has nowdisappeared."18. "It is enough to cause you bewilderment, Vaccha, enough to causeyou confusion. For the Dhamma, Vaccha, is profound, hard to see andhard to understand, peaceful and sublime, unattainable by merereasoning, subtle, to be experienced by the wise, It is hard for youto understand it when you hold another view, accept another teaching,approve of another teaching, pursue a different training, and followa different teacher. So I shall question you about this in return,Vaccha. Answer as you choose.19. "What do you think, Vaccha? Suppose a fire were burning b beforeyou. Would you know: "This fire is burning before me?""I would, Master Gotama."If someone were to ask you, Vaccha: 'What does this fire burningbefore you burn in dependence on?' - being asked thus, what would youanswer?"Being asked thus, Master Gotama, I would answer: 'This fire burningbefore me burns in dependence on grass and sticks.'""If that fire before you were extinguished, would you know; 'Thisfire before me has been extinguished'?""I would, Master Gotama.""If someone were to ask you, Vaccha: 'When that fire before you wasextinguished, to which direction did it go: to the east, the west,the north, or the south?' - being asked thus, what would you answer?""That does not apply, Master Gotama. The fire burned in dependence onits fuel of grass and sticks. When that is used up, if it does notget any more fuel, being without fuel, it is reckoned asextinguished."20. "So too, Vaccha, the Tathaagata has abandoned that form by whichone describing the Tathaagata might describe him; he has cut it offat the root, made it like a palm stump, done away with it so that itis no longer subject to future arising. Liberated from reckoning interms of form, the Tathaagatga is deep, immeasurable, hard to fathomlike the ocean. 'Is reborn' does not apply; 'Is not reborn' does notapply; 'both is reborn and is not reborn; does not apply; 'neither isreborn nor is not reborn' does not apply. The Tathaagata hasabandoned that feeling by which one describing the Tathaagata mightdescribe him... has abandoned that perception by which one describingthe Tathaagata might describe him...has abandoned those volitionalformations by which one describing the Tathaagata might describehim...has abandoned that consciousness by which one describing theTathaagata might describe him; he has cut it off at the root, made itlike a palm stump, done away with it so that it is no longer subjectto future arising. Liberated from reckoning in terms ofconsciousness, the Tathaagata is deep, immeasurable, hard to fathomlike the ocean. 'Is reborn' does not apply; 'is not reborn' does notapply; 'both is reborn and is not reborn' does not apply; 'neither isreborn nor is not reborn' does not apply".(from MN 72: Aggivacchagotta Sutta; I 386-88)http://www.abhidhamma.org/forums/index. ... &f=24&t=50================================================================================================================================================================================mettaChris

---The trouble is that you think you have time------Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe------It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

AdvaitaJ wrote:Having read Ajahn Brahm's book, Mindfulness, Bliss and Beyond, this question keeps haunting me. With parinibbana described as the remainder-less cessation of everything, what is the difference between that and annihilation? I understand that as long as you're subject to rebirth, annihilation is wrong view. What I don't understand is how the results are different when you're no longer subject to rebirth. Everything ceases, right? The flame is extinguished, out, gone. It didn't go anywhere, it's just gone. So, how is this different from annihilation?

Regards: AdvaitaJ

Hi AdvaitaJ,

A good question that comes up every once in a while for all of us un-enlightened ones. Also, I have read Ajahn Brahm's book and noticed that his description sounds a lot like annihilation. It is not annihilation because there was no self to begin with, but well then that still sounds a lot like there is 'nothing.'

To be continually reborn waiting for some type of apocalypse does not sound very Buddhist either, knowing how the Dhamma does not fit with such thinking of beginnings and an end.

The familiar quotes from the Buddha are comforting (at least for me) until we attain our own enlightenment and figure it all out:

'Reappears' doesn't apply. 'Does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Both does & does not reappear' doesn't apply.'Neither reappears nor does not reappear' doesn't apply." (MN 72 and at other places too)

For those of us who don't like the sound of a permanent end and complete non-existence, the second line can be comforting.

For those of us who make it to the pure abode realms as a non-returner (Anagami, where enlightenment/nibbana is attained) the 'life-span' there is at least 1,000 aeons (roughly about one trillion 'earth' years), so perhaps after that amount of time, we will have had enough of dukkha and craving to accept whatever happens.

AdvaitaJ wrote:what is the difference between [parinibbana] and annihilation?

Annihilation of what? This, I think, is the key to your question.

...you're no longer subject to rebirth.

To say "you are subject to X or not subject to Y" is to still assume a self.

The flame is extinguished, out, gone. It didn't go anywhere, it's just gone. So, how is this different from annihilation?

It depends what you think the flame represents. Delusion is annihilated. Craving is annihilated. Suffering is annihilated. So you can see there is annihilation.

I understand that as long as you're subject to rebirth, annihilation is wrong view.

Annihilation of an atman is wrong view. Another way to approach the question is "What is this atman the Buddha talks about?"

Another relevant question: "Is the annihilation of an illusion the same thing as the annihilation of what that illusion represented?" In other words, if you think you see a snake and then you come to see that the snake is really a rope... the illusion of a snake has been annihilated, but do we also say the snake was annihilated? You see a snake. I tell you if you follow this Noble Snakefold Path there will be no more snake. You ask if the snake will be annihilated and I say no.

Peter wrote:Another relevant question: "Is the annihilation of an illusion the same thing as the annihilation of what that illusion represented?" In other words, if you think you see a snake and then you come to see that the snake is really a rope... the illusion of a snake has been annihilated, but do we also say the snake was annihilated? You see a snake. I tell you if you follow this Noble Snakefold Path there will be no more snake. You ask if the snake will be annihilated and I say no.

Great comments. I think you're right on target, but interestingly, it still implies there is "something" remaining. (A rope.)

Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,But never soddens what is open;Uncover, then, what is concealed,Lest it be soddened by the rain.

AdvaitaJ wrote:Everything ceases, right?... So, how is this different from annihilation?

I get the impression you have in mind total extinction rather than simply the wrong view of annihilationism. The issue of whether the parinibbana or "nibbana element without remainder" (anupadisesa-nibbanadhatu) of the enlightened ones is total extinction is a subject of never-ending debate for the experts.

My atheist past was clearly set in the frame "when you're dead, you're gone". But now, developing some initial confidence in the dhamma is causing cracks in what had been a very simple and straightforward end-of-life scenario. What I've been able to distill from the replies essentially equates to ambiguity within an enigma for a question that, being honest here, amounts to me seeking a way to cling to existence. It would be quite ironic for me, after being such a strident atheist, to put such effort into trying to achieve nibbana if nibbana only equated to what my atheist beliefs produced in the first place!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to equate the two, it's just that things can wind up being extremely weird some ways.

Regards: AdvaitaJ

The birds have vanished down the sky. Now the last cloud drains away.We sit together, the mountain and me, until only the mountain remains. Li Bai

Another really excellent perspective on this issue is in "Anatta & Nibbana" by venerable Nyanaponika, as reprinted recently in his collection "A Vision of Dhamma".

Metta,Retro.

"When we transcend one level of truth, the new level becomes what is true for us. The previous one is now false. What one experiences may not be what is experienced by the world in general, but that may well be truer. (Ven. Nanananda)

“I hope, Anuruddha, that you are all living in concord, with mutual appreciation, without disputing, blending like milk and water, viewing each other with kindly eyes.” (MN 31)

it is said that the 'thatagata' doesnt exist after death is (also) wrong- so total annihilation is clearly refuted

what can be understood from the four fold negation is that any form is existence or non existence that we can conceptually understand is not what happens in nibbana

it is a 'state' beyond all our human concepts - hence it cannot be described- but clearly it is a 'place' beyond any form of suffering -we might as well be earthworms trying to understand calculus, or a computer trying to understand emotion

rowyourboat wrote:it is said that the 'thatagata' doesnt exist after death is (also) wrong- so total annihilation is clearly refuted

what can be understood from the four fold negation is that any form is existence or non existence that we can conceptually understand is not what happens in nibbana

it is a 'state' beyond all our human concepts - hence it cannot be described- but clearly it is a 'place' beyond any form of suffering -we might as well be earthworms trying to understand calculus, or a computer trying to understand emotion

If you mention this to a proponent of the view that enlightened beings utterly cease to exist at parinibbana, she might reply by pointing out the context provided by the Anuradha Sutta (SN 22.86, see the 2nd link provided by clw_uk above). She could say something like, "The point of the fourfold negation at SN 22.86 is that the Buddha is not to be identified with any of the aggregates (matter, sensations, perception/ recognition, volitional formations, consciousness)," although that is not her only option for a rebuttal. The problem with this debate is that experts on both sides are familiar with all of the relevant scriptures and I am told that this issue is centuries old.

The heart of the debate appears to be 2 different views of nibbana. The extinction proponents tend to see nibbana as cessation only and nothing more. The "not extinction" proponents tend to see nibbana as a transcendental reality as well.

Hi, could you please explain in short how do you get to this conclusion?

Here's my problem in short:

1. A living arahat X can experience nibbana because he still has the aggregates that can cognise it (in particular the aggregate of consciousness). In abhidhamma terms, nibbana can still be the object of citta. So all is well there.

2. However, after parinibbana – all aggregates of the arahat X fall away, so there’s no more consciousness that can cognise nibbana – i.e. there’s no more citta that can have nibbana as its object.

3. So perhaps after our arahat X’s parnibbana, the deathless element (nibbana) still remains as a reality that can be experienced by other future arahats Y and Z while they are alive. But for our arahat X, nibbana is not accessible anymore, since he has no way of experiencing it anymore due to lack of consciousness.

So, I’m struggling to understand how can parinibbana be anything else other than total extinction for our arahat X?

Hi, could you please explain in short how do you get to this conclusion?

Here's my problem in short:

1. A living arahat X can experience nibbana because he still has the aggregates that can cognise it (in particular the aggregate of consciousness). In abhidhamma terms, nibbana can still be the object of citta. So all is well there.

2. However, after parinibbana – all aggregates of the arahat X fall away, so there’s no more consciousness that can cognise nibbana – i.e. there’s no more citta that can have nibbana as its object.

3. So perhaps after our arahat X’s parnibbana, the deathless element (nibbana) still remains as a reality that can be experienced by other future arahats Y and Z while they are alive. But for our arahat X, nibbana is not accessible anymore, since he has no way of experiencing it anymore due to lack of consciousness.

So, I’m struggling to understand how can parinibbana be anything else other than total extinction for our arahat X?

Thanks

If you think its total extinction, this is still clinging to the aggregates and thinking of one or more of them as self, as the arahant,

"if they go, "he" goes"

It seems your thinking of the consciousness as the arahant. All aggregates are Anatta

"And so, Anuradha — when you can't pin down the Tathagata as a truth or reality even in the present life — is it proper for you to declare, 'Friends, the Tathagata — the supreme man, the superlative man, attainer of the superlative attainment — being described, is described otherwise than with these four positions: The Tathagata exists after death, does not exist after death, both does & does not exist after death, neither exists nor does not exist after death'?"

If you cant pin down an arahant in this life and say "this is him" then how can you hope to do so after death

There was another good Sutta that covers this in the SM that i came accross last night, i will post it on here tonight

Metta

He who binds to himself a joyDoes the wingèd life destroy;But he who kisses the joy as it fliesLives in eternity's sunrise.

---The trouble is that you think you have time------Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe------It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

Nice work Chris! I was trying to find that link earlier on in this thread.

Metta,Retro.

"When we transcend one level of truth, the new level becomes what is true for us. The previous one is now false. What one experiences may not be what is experienced by the world in general, but that may well be truer. (Ven. Nanananda)

“I hope, Anuruddha, that you are all living in concord, with mutual appreciation, without disputing, blending like milk and water, viewing each other with kindly eyes.” (MN 31)

Hi, could you please explain in short how do you get to this conclusion?

Here's my problem in short:

1. A living arahat X can experience nibbana because he still has the aggregates that can cognise it (in particular the aggregate of consciousness). In abhidhamma terms, nibbana can still be the object of citta. So all is well there.

2. However, after parinibbana – all aggregates of the arahat X fall away, so there’s no more consciousness that can cognise nibbana – i.e. there’s no more citta that can have nibbana as its object.

3. So perhaps after our arahat X’s parnibbana, the deathless element (nibbana) still remains as a reality that can be experienced by other future arahats Y and Z while they are alive. But for our arahat X, nibbana is not accessible anymore, since he has no way of experiencing it anymore due to lack of consciousness.

So, I’m struggling to understand how can parinibbana be anything else other than total extinction for our arahat X?

Thanks

Hi pt1,

I agree that the aggregates cease and do not re-arise together. But consciousness seems to cease in a different sense in the suttas. At DN 11.85 a "consciousness" that is "featureless" or "signless," "boundless," and "all-luminous" is suprisingly equated with "the cessation of consciousness."The two are the same thing. Consciousness ceases in a sense, yet in another sense there is consciousness. It seems to me that the consciousness of an arahant at death changes from one state to another. A modern analogy might be that of boiling water turning to steam.

To quote Thanissaro Bhikkhu (Mind Like Fire Unbound), regarding the enlightened mind after death: "The Buddha borrows two points from the Vedic notion of fire to illustrate this point. Even if one wants to assume that fire still exists after being extinguished, it is (1) so subtle that it cannot be perceived, and (2) so diffuse that it cannot be said to go to any one place or in any particular direction. Just as notions of going east, west, north, or south do not apply to an extinguished fire, notions of existing and so forth do not apply to the Tathagata after death."

And: "he uses the diffuse, indeterminate nature of extinguished fire as understood by the Vedists to illustrate the absolute indescribability of the person who has reached the Buddhist goal."

It is important to remember that the surviving transmuted "consciousness" (or whatever it is) is obviously not an atman if remains subject to change, if it continues to constantly arise and cease, while perceiving Nibbana. Moreover, it is not clung to or identified with by an arahant.