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Suzaku continues to fail miserably. Come on, dumbass. Britannia is a nation with enough firepower and manpower to crush several nations at once, surpress their cultures, and put down any resistance that comes as a result of that. Do you honestly believe that rebel forces are going to win in a "my army vs. your army in a straight foward shoot out" war? No. They tried that already. They got crushed. And this time, they don't even have a regular military, so they'll get crushed even worse than before. And Japan will disappear forever. The only way that they can hope to win is through using tricks and traps to trim their numbers, and that's going to cause some collateral damage. Or would you prefer it if the "11s" spent the rest of their lives being looked down upon as an inferior, disposable race (that some of the people in charge like to use for live target practice, mind you) and being forced to be something they're not?

Suzaku continues to fail miserably. Come on, dumbass. Britannia is a nation with enough firepower and manpower to crush several nations at once, surpress their cultures, and put down any resistance that comes as a result of that. Do you honestly believe that rebel forces are going to win in a "my army vs. your army in a straight foward shoot out" war? No. They tried that already. They got crushed. And this time, they don't even have a regular military, so they'll get crushed even worse than before. And Japan will disappear forever. The only way that they can hope to win is through using tricks and traps to trim their numbers, and that's going to cause some collateral damage. Or would you prefer it if the "11s" spent the rest of their lives being looked down upon as an inferior, disposable race (that some of the people in charge like to use for live target practice, mind you) and being forced to be something they're not?

Actually, this isn't about the desperation of the 11s. There really hasn't been a straight shootout in a battlefield for decades, because it is an outdated tactic. Suzaku is a naive individual who lives a fantasy of being an Arthurian Knight, who believe battles should be fought in the forms of honest duels. (Even though the original Arthurian Knights certainly aren't as chivalrous as people wanted to believe.)

The point being, neither the Black Knights nor the Brittanian military have a problem with using tricks. They fought to defeat each other, not because they somehow feel they are themselves morally superior. Suzaku's views that he was out there dispensing justice is not shared by even people on his own side. Lloid certainly find Suzaku's sense of justice amusing, but silly.

It certainly is to most of the people that are fighting to liberate Japan and to those that support them. Why would they be risking their lives if they weren't desperate to break free from the strangle hold that Britannia has them in?

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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

There really hasn't been a straight shootout in a battlefield for decades, because it is an outdated tactic.

By "straight shootout", I meant people fighting people, mechs fighting mechs, where they only used gunfire and small explosives that were just big enough to kill each other, and didn't resort to any tactics like landslides and big explosions to take out big chunks of each other's forces. I didn't mean oldschool wars where one side stood on one side of the battlefield and the other side stood on the other side of the battlefield and they clashed. I thought that was obvious.

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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

The point being, neither the Black Knights nor the Brittanian military have a problem with using tricks. They fought to defeat each other, not because they somehow feel they are themselves morally superior.

You don't think that this is a moral battle? The Japanese feel that Britannia is wrong to have invaded their nation and surpressed their culture and treated their people like disposable pieces of garbage. That's why they fight. Lelouch feels Britannia is wrong to surpress the weak like they do. After all, where would that leave people like his sister, who were put into terrible situations that forced them into weak bodies? Who have no choice but to be weak? Further more, he feels that he was wronged as well. They killed his mother, and used him and his sister as tools, and as far as he's concerned, they had no right to do that.

Britannia may just be trying to force their superiority on others, but this is definitely a morale battle for those that are fighting against Britannia. Hell, it might even be a kind of twisted morale battle for the Britannians. Think caste philosophy, with an iron fisted peace-by-force philosophy mixed in. Even if its miserable for the people on the bottom, it encourages a kind of stability... a place for everything, and everything in its place. How much you want to bet that the Britannians are Hindu?

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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Suzaku's views that he was out there dispensing justice is not shared by even people on his own side. Lloid certainly find Suzaku's sense of justice amusing, but silly.

I really hope that Suzaku dies... he needs to. Its time that the smarter anime directors start taking shots at the "honorable tactics will always overcome practical tactics" cliche that so many directors use.

You don't think that this is a moral battle? The Japanese feel that Britannia is wrong to have invaded their nation and surpressed their culture and treated their people like disposable pieces of garbage. That's why they fight. Lelouch feels Britannia is wrong to surpress the weak like they do. After all, where would that leave people like his sister, who were put into terrible situations that forced them into weak bodies? Who have no choice but to be weak? Further more, he feels that he was wronged as well. They killed his mother, and used him and his sister as tools, and as far as he's concerned, they had no right to do that.

No right to kill his mother?
I don't know where you are getting that idea. This isn't about right and wrong, or even fairness, but suffering, pain, and revenge. The Japanese want their country back, and that's to be expected. The Britannians had taken Japan by force, so it's only natural that the resistance would attempt to use force in retaliation.
If anything, Lelouch uses other people as tools even now. Lulu knew how the Britanian royal courts operate, and was not surprised that people wanted to kill his mother. It was the fact that his father did nothing to prevent it that angered him.
Lelouch is cut from the same cloth as his royal siblings, and he knows it. He wants revenge, and Lulu isn't silly enough to confuse revenge for justice.

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Britannia may just be trying to force their superiority on others, but this is definitely a morale battle for those that are fighting against Britannia. Hell, it might even be a kind of twisted morale battle for the Britannians. Think caste philosophy, with an iron fisted peace-by-force philosophy mixed in. Even if its miserable for the people on the bottom, it encourages a kind of stability... a place for everything, and everything in its place. How much you want to bet that the Britannians are Hindu?

Nope, according to Euphie, that's not the Britannian philosophy. Their mentality is that you have the right to do anything your power allows you to do, that as long as you are willing to pay the price of war, you are free to fight anyone anywhere, and that everything belongs to you when you win.
To put it simply, "Might makes Right".
That is why even amongst themselves the Britanian aristocracy is cut-throat. Your birthright, if you have any, is only yours to keep if you are prepared to do anything and everything to defend yourself. Britannians don't believe there is a place for everything, only that you can do anything as long as you win.

No right to kill his mother?
I don't know where you are getting that idea. This isn't about right and wrong, or even fairness, but suffering, pain, and revenge. The Japanese want their country back, and that's to be expected. The Britannians had taken Japan by force, so it's only natural that the resistance would attempt to use force in retaliation.
If anything, Lelouch uses other people as tools even now. Lulu knew how the Britanian royal courts operate, and was not surprised that people wanted to kill his mother. It was the fact that his father did nothing to prevent it that angered him.
Lelouch is cut from the same cloth as his royal siblings, and he knows it. He wants revenge, and Lulu isn't silly enough to confuse revenge for justice.

No, Lelouch has stated multiple times that part of the reason why he's fighting is to make the world a better place for his sister. He said himself that Britannia's policy to surpress the weak wasn't fair to people like his sister.

He's definitely not viewing Shirley as a tool right now (you don't have guilt trips over hurting a tool, and you definitely don't let a tool get in the way of a perfect moment to accomplish your mission), he may he use CC but he doesn't view her a mere tool (that seemed like a legitimate intimate moment in the cave), and he doesn't appear to view Karen as a tool either.

Its true Lelouch isn't your usual selfless hero that has some naive ridiculous sense of "honor" that wouldn't fly in the real world... he's a practical guy that knows that sacrifices are going to be necessary to accomplish his goals, and he's willing to make those sacrifices when necessary, be he isn't some bastard that only cares and fights for himself and views those around him as disposable pawns. He cares about his friends, he loves his sister, and he's said in private, when there's nobody around but maybe CC to hear him talk, that he's out to help his sister as well as to get revenge on Britannia for what they did to him and his mom. Also, he says that all of that justice stuff was just to get people to rally behind him, but I'm not completely convinced. After all, what practical purpose did saving random people in trouble serve before he became Zero? He knows that one or two regular resistance members probably aren't going to make that big of a difference, and I don't think that the people that Shirley talked about Lelouch saving shortly after she met him even were resistance members.

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Originally Posted by "Vallen Chaos Valiant"

Nope, according to Euphie, that's not the Britannian philosophy. Their mentality is that you have the right to do anything your power allows you to do, that as long as you are willing to pay the price of war, you are free to fight anyone anywhere, and that everything belongs to you when you win.
To put it simply, "Might makes Right".
That is why even amongst themselves the Britanian aristocracy is cut-throat. Your birthright, if you have any, is only yours to keep if you are prepared to do anything and everything to defend yourself. Britannians don't believe there is a place for everything, only that you can do anything as long as you win.

He cares about his friends, he loves his sister, and he's said in private, when there's nobody around but maybe CC to hear him talk, that he's out to help his sister as well as to get revenge on Britannia for what they did to him and his mom.

I agree with you here, but I still would hesitate to characterise Lelouch's campaign as based on moral principles. He disagrees with his father's (and by extension Britannia's) philosophy, that much is obvious. But it's far from clear what - if any - principles Lelouch would prefer to replace them with. There's nothing wrong with him wanting to make a better country for his loved ones, but I don't believe that in itself qualifies his struggle as a moral one.

Lelouch may well have his own vision for a better world, above and beyond his desires for revenge and to help and protect Nunnally, but I don't think he's shown us enough of that yet to draw any real conclusions about the morality of his ambitions.

But while it is just speculation at this point, after seeing him risk his save people that in all likelyhood wouldn't have any strategic value to him and especially after seeing his reaction to Shirley's suffering, I'm personally under the impression that Lelouch is a geniunely good guy that just happens to understand that you can't win this kind of war by being some merciful idealist that doesn't seize every opportunity to attack the enemy that you can take while still keeping the hearts of the people.

I'm personally under the impression that Lelouch is a geniunely good guy that just happens to understand that you can't win this kind of war by being some merciful idealist that doesn't seize every opportunity to attack the enemy that you can take while still keeping the hearts of the people.

I agree with you on this. I just don't believe that "he's a genuinely good guy" is enough to make the cause he's battling for a moral one. It's possible that it is, but I don't think we've seen enough evidence to make that call yet.

Obviously his father realised he's to good of a guy to want to play his game so he arranged all that (murdering his wife, exiling the children ) so that he forced him to take revenge someday and play the " survival of the fittest" just like the other children. I guess at least one per wife xD

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"I cannot be caged! I cannot be controlled! Understand this as you die, ever pathetic, ever fools!"

is anyone here actually calling lulu the villain? O.o from my point of view so far he hasnt done anything worthy of the title...hell this is war! so sure hes killed a lot of people...but still those are on the enemy's side so its either them or him...we can blame him for the loss of the dead...
also he does try to save as much as he could on his side...as long as his crow follow his unbeatable orders then they will be fine...problem is when the crew start to act on their own and get killed ~ not lulu's fault...
the people that lulu kills is necessary for him to achieve a better life and avenge his past...so its well justified ~ its not like hes killing out of fun :3

Well, there is however this matter that Nietzsche wrote about. "He who fights with monsters, etc,etc..." which is in many cases how the righteous (or not so righteous) fall. One has to be ever vigilant not to cross the line, or we'll be exchanging one tyrant for another.

is anyone here actually calling lulu the villain? O.o from my point of view so far he hasnt done anything worthy of the title...hell this is war! so sure hes killed a lot of people...but still those are on the enemy's side so its either them or him...we can blame him for the loss of the dead...
also he does try to save as much as he could on his side...as long as his crow follow his unbeatable orders then they will be fine...problem is when the crew start to act on their own and get killed ~ not lulu's fault...
the people that lulu kills is necessary for him to achieve a better life and avenge his past...so its well justified ~ its not like hes killing out of fun :3

I ask you this then; do you think Lelouch considers his own actions heroic?

This is the single thing that separates Lelouch from his best friend; he holds no illusions over his own actions. This is a political powergame, and thus there are no rules. But that doesn't make him a hero. Calling him a villain would be difficult though, because you would be hard pressed to find another character at present who isn't worse than he is. Evil is relative.

You need to realise, Leouch is NOT on the moral high ground. He is merely appearing to be, because in comparison the Britannian empire is on the moral Grand Abyss.

I ask you this then; do you think Lelouch considers his own actions heroic?

This is the single thing that separates Lelouch from his best friend; he holds no illusions over his own actions. This is a political powergame, and thus there are no rules. But that doesn't make him a hero. Calling him a villain would be difficult though, because you would be hard pressed to find another character at present who isn't worse than he is. Evil is relative.

You need to realise, Leouch is NOT on the moral high ground. He is merely appearing to be, because in comparison the Britannian empire is on the moral Grand Abyss.

i believe he does :3 he will see the outcome of his actions and make his own judgment up depending on the result ~

he could be called a hero cause lets face it...even with killing some enemies he is ultimatly trying to release britannia's grip over the world ~ who were the ones to start this stupid take over in the first place...one thing to be said that is "if you can handle the fire then stay out of the kitchen" ~ britannia started all the crap and the should know that some (like lulu) arent willing to be trampled on for the rest of their lives ~

and who needs high moral? in this case...show sympathy and you die...simple as that ~ normally it would be bad but in the CG universe its somewat needed in order to survive (thats why i can see suzaku pushing up daisies in the future ~

and how is lulu not in high moral ground? he is just playing the game however it changes...manipulation is the key to winning

While his actions will indeed (most likely) loosen Britanias grip, that is not what he cares about the most - it is an effect he is going to achieve in order to secure a "safe" world for his sister, and to avenge his mother.

This is what he wants - Revenge and future for Nunnaly. He does not care too much about the rest. If freeing Japan is essential to his cause then he will do it - not because he cares much about Japan, but because doing so helps him to achieve his primary goals. Liberation of Japan is just another tool to achieve his goal.

He is fighting for purely "selfish" reasons, not to spread some greater good and what not, which does not exactly make him stand on moral high-ground. (but it does not make him evel either). Fact is - he does not care much about it, nor does he consider himself some hero of justice.

This is war, people fight and die, and there is no good or bad about it... war itself is bad... which is something his dear childhood friend miserably fails to realize.

This is what he wants - Revenge and future for Nunnaly. He does not care too much about the rest. If freeing Japan is essential to his cause then he will do it - not because he cares much about Japan, but because doing so helps him to achieve his primary goals. Liberation of Japan is just another tool to achieve his goal.

Agreed. But one thing which Lelouch may yet discover is that a cause, once started, can often take on a life of its own. It'll be interesting to watch if - somewhere down the line - Lelouch finds himself unable to act as he wishes because he needs to keep up appearances as leader of the "heroic" Black Knights.

(Now wouldn't that be irony? Macchiavellian Lelouch being forced to act heroic because he's the leader of the "allies of justice," while idealistic Suzaku is forced to do dirty work because he's a member of a thoroughly amoral military...)