If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You will be required to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

MAINTENANCE NOTICE: The site will be down for maintenance on Sunday, February 18, 2018, between 9 AM and 12 PM Eastern. We apologize for any inconvenience!

Many, many years ago I took a macroeconomics course. One of the more interesting lessons was about a company that had several divisions, with one product needing parts that were made by a seperate division in the company. The twist was that another company made an identical part, but at a lower price. So where should the needed part be purchased from? It seemed obvious to me that clearly the company should buy internally.

There was a lot of numbers and a couple of long proofs, but the end result was surprising. Despite what seemed like an obvious and clear choice, economically, overall, the best place to get the part was from the lower priced outside vendor.

Clearly that would hurt the company's own division making the part, but overall it was far better for the company as a whole.

I imagine that the example can be scaled up and applies to nations and international economics as well.

Whether we like it or not we are now part of a global economy. That's more than a fleeting catchphrase, it is the reality we need to accept.

We either deal with it and adjust now, or we'll be forced to adjust later.

Comment

There was another article in the paper about the declining sale of 'domestic' autos, Ford, Chevy and Chrysler (sort of). It pointed out that not too long ago Chevy owned about 50% of domestic sales, and now that's down to 25%, and declining.

The ramifications of this decline are staggering, the causes many, and the cure uncertain.

One thing that I think most Americans overlook is that we've had a pretty good run, but nothing is guaranteed. At one time Rome, France, England, Spain and other countries each had their time in the Sun, but their Sun eventually set. The same can happen to us.

We've enjoyed a great economy and a very high standard of living. These benefits were not given to us, we earned them through hard work, enterprise, smarts, and tenacity. Note that our standard of living was never a birthright, it was a well earned reward, as it should be.

There are other countries with citizens who are working just as hard, if not harder. Their students are not as smart as ours, they're undeniably smarter. Their standard of living is lower than ours, but they are changing that equation whether we like it or not, they certainly aren't about to ask for our permission. Can you blame them? With the new media they have access to the Internet, they see what we have, our lifestyle, our cars, our homes, and they want theirs. You and I would do the same thing if we were in their shoes, at least at one time we would have.

But we're not, we're in our comfortable loafers, kicking back having a cold one, watching the game on the boob tube. Meanwhile they're putting in 10 hour days, 60 hour weeks, at $1.00 an hour.

Their kids are putting in the same effort in school, learning English, science & math. Meanwhile our kids are watching MTV and complaining that their $150 sneakers aren't this season's color, "can I get a new pair at the mall, to match my Ipod?"

We're just like our car companies were in the 70's- fat, happy, lazy and oblivious to the big picture, the coming ****storm.

There are claims that some of our foreign importer's tactics are underhanded. Government supports and tariffs, market flooding and the like. It's safe to say that many of those charges are probably true, but then again economic politics is a blood sport, and we're getting slammed and bloodied pretty bad.

If you harbor any beliefs that we can legislate or wish this away, or that somehow our fortunes will shift because that's the American way, get over it.

If you think that you can stop this by only buying American made products, get over that also. Even if everyone were to do that (and that ain't gonna happen) it would only slow things down temporarily before causing our decline to accelerate as we become an international dinosaur. I'm afraid that isolationism is not an option in this global economy. To see how well that works, check out North Korea or Cuba.

I wish there was an easy answer, I'd like our kids to live in a stronger, not weaker, America. I'd like them to enjoy a better standard of living, but I fear they won't if we continue down this path wearing our patriotic blinders, oblivious to the world of monumental change around us.

I'll be honest, I'm still a bit ignorant. To this day when I think of a Chinese citizen in my mind's eye I see some coolie working in a rice paddy wearing one of those hats I buy in some Chinatown t-shirt shop. Old views are tough to change. But wow, am I wrong about that picture.

If there is a solution it's that we need to get back into a position where we have the best and brightest minds solving the problems facing mankind. We need to come up with solutions to the energy supply problem. We need to come up with affordable medical procedures. We need to stay in front on the technology advances. We need to build better products cheaper. We need to manage and exploit our natural resources better.

We need to push our schools to get good teachers who can stimulate interest in math and science. We need to demand that our kids take those courses seriously. We need parents who care enough to make those demands, and help work to meet them.

This is still a great country, but we've made some serious mistakes. Again, Chevrolet dropped from a 50% market share to a 25% market share. It's not that they didn't have the talent, they do. But due to corporate arrogance they took their eye off the ball and are now on the edge of losing the big game.

We need to learn from their mistakes before it's too late.

So please, stop crying about the fact that most tools are made in China. That is such a small iota of the over all picture that it's dangerous to focus on it. That's like Chevrolet circa 1973 worrying about whether to have the Screaming Chicken decal on a Firebird's hood facing left instead of right while at that same moment Toyota and Datsun realized that America really wanted (needed) smaller cars and then selling them to us left and right.

Do I want to feed a communist country that has near slave labor? No, of course not, but you can't always pick your opponents, or your partners. And I also realize that China is rapidly changing. Gone are the bikes and the collie hats, in are new cars, apartments, cell phones and TVs. The best way to get China, or any other country, to emulate our democratic capitalist system (still the best system in history!) is to have them become solid trade partners. The best way to have them fear us and plan our destruction is to isolate them. And to isolate ourselves will impose the same negative effects on us.

If you want to support American industries and actually help them, demand that they wake up and build better products at prices competitive to the imports. That may mean that some wages will need to come down and the workforce rearranged, which will not be easy. But nobody said that life is gonna always be easy. I'm afraid we're all going to experience that truth in the next few decades, if we don't wake up.

[ 11-08-2005, 02:04 AM: Message edited by: ooman2 ]

Comment

Our "Made in America" corporate raiders are as big a threat to the future of American companies as the offshore competition.

When you have POS CEOs making multi-millions of dollars saleries, stealing from pension funds, cheating on taxes, misleading investors, etc.
That is an enviroment in which an honest company (one that wants to pay their employees a decent wage and operate within the law) can not compete.

Comment

"If I could outsorce my work (custom decks) having someone work for me at $0.64 an hour and be happy about it, I would do it. ANYONE who has a business would its the smart thing to do. Charge as much as you can for a product and pay as little for it just a smart way to do business."

Sure. Screw thy neighbor, and exploit poor working people trying to make a decent buck through hard work to support themselves and their families. With attitudes like that, it's no wonder we are being sold down the river. It's dog eat dog and if you're a poor working schmuck trying to get ahead you have a long road ahead of you because everybody out there, including your own countrymen, want to exploit you for every penny they can get with no regard to your own well being or compensation in return.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to come off offensively or rude or insulting. But that post is, to me, obnoxious.

You want to be paid a decent living for the hard work YOU do. Why is it you don't think that's the ethical thing to do in reagrds to other people working for you? Is it greed, or just downright don't care about anybody but yourself?

It's a new American family value. Become a kulak and pay as low a wage as you can to your workers and get rich quick. Is'nt capitalism great?

I believe you get a quality product, and quality service and work, if you pay quality wages. And I also think it's the ethical and moral thing to do in exchange for another's hard labor. But this country I believe has lost it's moral compass in this regard years ago, it's all about the bottom line now and one's own wealth and well-being. And this attitude seems to pervade American business from the large globalist corporations outsourcing everything under the sun to places like China that have no environmental regs or fair labor laws/wages, to the small contractor who treats his employees like dirt, does'nt offer livable wages or benefits and still expects people to work like slaves for them. It's pathetic.

Comment

"If you want to support American industries and actually help them, demand that they wake up and build better products at prices competitive to the imports. That may mean that some wages will need to come down and the workforce rearranged"

Great. That's the ticket. So, because we have Chinese coolies willing to work for 50 cents an hour for 16 hour days with no enviro-regs, overtime or health insurance, that means we have to lower our standards to the same level. Hey, if the large globalists, who have about as much patriotism and loyalty to this country as a Chinese spy does, get away with undermining and destroying unions, worker's rights, living wages and health insurance, why, they won't need to move or outsource anything at all! We can have our OWN mass of second class citizens we can trap into poverty level wages and jokes for benefits and the globalists can get even richer! Oh, wait, theres that little enviro issue still to deal with, but I'm sure there's a way to get around that too once all the traitorous free trade agreements are signed like CAFTA.

The issue at hand is WHY does the Federal Gummit allow American corporations to outsource American jobs and industry en-masse with no congressional legislation aimed at stopping the trend and in actuality even promoting it, instead of placing large penalties on such companies up to and including in my opinion the threat of nationalization of assets, since these traitorous corporations made their fortunes here and still do but don't want to contribute anything back. You're right, we can't simply isolate ourselves ala-Buchanan style, but just handing over our entire manufacturing sector, along with millions of jobs, to quasi-communist nations is'nt my idea of rectifying anything, and if you continue to ignore the trend, even in tools, and continue to buy these products without regard to the consequences, then we are all responsible, along with out corrupt federal gummit, for the decline of American industry and wages.

Comment

If you read the whole post "having someone work for me at $0.64 an hour and be HAPPY about it" did you not see the happy word??? I know I cant get away with that so I wont. I do care about my fellow man but if I had been paid well at my last job I would not open my own company and I feel that anyone who works for me should learn enough to start their own company because that is much better than working for me or someone else the rest of your life.

Colorado Deck and Framing - When perfection is demanded

Comment

Go buy a SKIL skilsaw (or Bosch for that matter). Still made wholely in the USA. Check the box at Home Depot. Not enough people buy based on quality or country of origin. Cheaper = better. The American consumer has voted and forced corporations to manufacture in China. Refuse to buy Ridgid (or any products made in China) and companies will react. It'll never happen but it's simple economics. Companies are just best reacting to the market place. People snatching up Ridgid based on whoo-hoo free batteries rather then country of origin or even performance are adding to the current economic situation.

I don't work for Ridgid and I don't work for Home Depot but I likely know more about both than someone who works at either.

Comment

The issue of why the Feds don't do anything about it is because most of them are bought and paid for by big business. They wouldn't be sitting in DC if it weren't for the money they received from the big corporations, so they are not liekly to bite the hand that feeds them.

Comment

Same thing has happened here in Canada Land.
Nothings done about imports for shoes,textiles..no only name a couple
Now most of these jobs disappeared.
Even fishing wasn't halted now not much to do for atlantic prov. fishermen.
Plain fact is Canadains don't buy loyal either even company I go in and out of buys cheap china power tools sander and such..the legs bend over just getting them to production floor and heaven help you if you bump with towmotor fork as whole base twists horribly.
They took all made in china stickers off.
They told me these new tools are great!...Normally cost $1500.00(bought from manufacturer of quality product) and they pleased how they bought this new junk for $500.00
But the tools are not going to last!
Especially with a large pool of employees playing with them and fritzing them up.
So wheres the saving..seems like a waste they'll go thru several cheap ones yet couls have bought one good product but hey go figure.
Thats the corporate intelligence hired today to do the companies(masters) bidding.

Comment

Reminds me of the doo-rag wearing harley zombies. Talking all about made in america, somtime flip over a few parts in the harley shop for their country of origin.

My GMC truck was made in Canada, my Dodge in Mexico. Only thing truck wise I could buy made in the US was the Toyota. What do you do. Seems the lines blur a lot, made in America, corporate holding in X country.

Comment

Does that mean wages come down to communist slave wage levels and the workforce rearranged so that our 9 year old kids work side by side with us for 13 hours a day? Maybe we need to bring CEO and upper management compensation down to the levels of those in China. Lets see the president of Ridgid live on 19 dollars a week. In fact I'd like to read any of the posters here if they had to live on what they want others to make. Oh thats right they wouldn't be here because they wouldn't be able to afford their own tools to write about. And they certainly couldnt afford to be on line.

It certainly is about choice. Its a free country. China is not. The slaves who work there either do it for the pennies they are given or they are shot or they dissappear. If they dare even say they want to be free they are gunned down in the street in broad daylight. But hey guys what do I know I am just some "do rag" buy American patriot who actually respects the flag he flies over his home rather than wear it like a dress.

It is about choice. the choice between freedom and communism. Many of the posts I see here indicate a vast support for communism. Maybe we did lose the Cold War and I didn't get my paper that day. Who knows? No red blooded American would dare buy a Soviet made drill set and then brag about being a free man during the entire last century. Communism is not cool, its not even funny, it is not about freedom of choice its about a choice to support those who are free.

Comment

Originally posted by Plainsman: Reminds me of the doo-rag wearing harley zombies. Talking all about made in america, somtime flip over a few parts in the harley shop for their country of origin.

My GMC truck was made in Canada, my Dodge in Mexico. Only thing truck wise I could buy made in the US was the Toyota. What do you do. Seems the lines blur a lot, made in America, corporate holding in X country.

You can check this list for US made vehicles. There are plenty of choices besides the toyota.
I think you gave up to easily in your search for a US made vehicle.

Comment

I think Plainsman did not look or try to look. My GMC 2500HD LT 4x4 was made in the USA with I think it was 86% American made componoents. It was either 86% or 94%. My Ford F150 xlt 4x4 had the tag listing the other percentage and I cannot remember which truck had which tag but both were made in USA. And both percentages are substantial. The Avalanche and all of its twins including the Cadillac model are the only GM trucks not made in North America. Ford shuttered a Mexican truck plant a few years ago because the cost savings did not

Some manufacturers are moving production here like Toyota and Nissan. Some foriegn manufacturers here might use Americans to assemble their products but nearly 100% of the parts are brought in from over seas. Even the overseas part is not so bad as long as the parts come from a free and Democratic nation.

Its also pretty bad when foriegn companies are starting to come here because so many States have cheap labor. Yet some American companies are leaving the even cheap labor states because cheap is just not cheap enough. They want free or slave labor.

The edited part: The first paragraph should have finished; cost savings did not offset the quality problems.