Again, progression and heroic raiding isn't relly involved in this debate, which is talking about popularity of raid size.

The fundamentals are still the same. I'm talking about encounters where the raid is performing at their limit, trying to kill a new boss. What's outside the scope is LFR, which you can't even call "raiding" with a straight face.

25 mans are already rewarded more. They get more loot and because of higher class diversification the loot they get almost always goes to someone. In 10 mans we are constantly de'ing loot because no one needs it however there is loot that people need (it just hasn't dropped). It seems to me things are balanced now. The only reason 10's are more popular is because it's more fun and easier to get along with 9 others rather than 24 other players (totally my opinion of course).

25 man raids already get so much more loot then 10man. I don't think that 25man needs any more incentives. If people are really going from 25 to 10 it seems like its a time for change. 10man might be the new dominate raiding size. It just sounds like people want Blizzard to force them to do something else. If you don't like the raiding atmosphere of a 10man look for a 25man guild.

25 man raids already get so much more loot then 10man. I don't think that 25man needs any more incentives. If people are really going from 25 to 10 it seems like its a time for change. 10man might be the new dominate raiding size. It just sounds like people want Blizzard to force them to do something else. If you don't like the raiding atmosphere of a 10man look for a 25man guild.

It's actually less loot per person than in 10 man. You get 2 tokens in 25man, that's 1 token for each 12.5man vs 1 token per 10man, also you get 3 pieces of loot, which is 1 piece per ~8.3 raiders, vs 2 pieces of loot in 10 man (1 piece per 5 man).

Not even talking anout BS with legendary gem, you get 1 quest item from Sha per 25 man raid and same 1 quest item on 10 man.

In 25s you can afford to have a few deaths and you can even pull if you're backfilling a few players. Both really make you stop in your tracks on 10s. In 25, it's easier to fade back into the group if you're still not 100% confident in what you're doing. In 10s, it's harder to be a wallflower.

If by "real" 25 man raiding you mean progression and HC modes, you are wrong.

So you're saying in progression raiding and HC modes it's fine to pug people and have people fuck up? Okay, that's fine. It's not what happens in reality, but you're free to hold onto any delusions you wish.

No, equal loot did that. Shared lockouts happened in ICC, and made not a dent in the numbers. Equal loot was Blizzard saying:
"This hard thing is just as rewarding as this easy thing."

Every 25 has a better 10s inside it. We held out as long as we could, but at some point it was convert to two 10s and get way more progression that way. Simply no choice about it, very basic economics.

If you have a job, think about it this way. Pretend that instead of going to work and doing whatever it is that you do, that you and two of your friends could make the same amount, for the same amount of work, with LESS risk. You'd probably do that- you'd be a fool not to. This is very close to that.

But for Blizzard to change it now would devastate their raiding community. Only an announcement like "cross server guilds" (aka, realm mergers in all but name) delivered simultaneously could possibly abate a portion of the rage, and I'm betting at least 10% of raiders would honestly and legitimately quit, having viewed their WoW as having been shut down.

Blizzard should take this lesson, which was available for them back in ICC when we told them this exact thing would happen, and remember it when designing future MMOs.