It wasn't THAT different from the book. The baby thing was a logical extension of what we already know, and the bit with the mutineers is clearly an attempt to tie Bran's story a bit more to the main plot, and to give a bit more drama to the reveal when he gets where he's going at the end of the season.

If they kill off someone who survives in the books, then I'll be surprised. Otherwise, it's mostly just cosmetic changes, for reasons of timing in a TV season.

I don't think the point is that it was different than the books, it's that it just wasn't IN the books. We've never had a glimpse of White Walker hierarchy before.

And we didn't really now, either. All we saw was a baby being 'turned'. Woo. We already knew they were taking babies, and since a wight baby is sort of useless, the logical conclusion is, that use that to make more Walkers.

We can also derive that they can talk (had to communicate with Craster), will negotiate under some circumstances (ditto), have females (Coldhands was almost surely the Night's King, and got the way he did after falling for a female walker), and cannot pass the wall. Ergo, if we want to see the plot Go Big, literary theory says the wall is coming down at some point. Or at least part of it.

This is why when I look at this modern golden age of television and specifically the translation of books to TV, the Walking Dead stands tall is such a good show. Even if you've read the entire comic series and have foreknowledge of characters and story arcs used for the show, they use elements but almost never follow the book exactly. It's the best of both worlds and allows you be completely surprised.

whistleridge:We can also derive that they can talk (had to communicate with Craster), will negotiate under some circumstances (ditto), have females (Coldhands was almost surely the Night's King, and got the way he did after falling for a female walker), and cannot pass the wall. Ergo, if we want to see the plot Go Big, literary theory says the wall is coming down at some point. Or at least part of it.

Chekov's Horn.

Confabulat:How has this show been on this many years and I just now found the Bronn pop-rock video from the 90s?

I can only think of one more big 'shocker' event coming up from the books in any case. The thing that gets me is that the TV series seems to have completely dropped the plotline about Jon Snow's parentage. And the three headed dragon prophecy as well.

Confabulat:Personally, I hope they ditch the books altogether from now on. There's only a couple of things left I'd actually like to see on film.

This * 1e12

We're getting into book 4 material now and things start going downhill fast. Dany, Bran, Brienne and (sadly) Tyrion get dull really quickly. Even Cersei's chapters started to bore me since it was clear where her story was heading almost immediately.

The coming diaspora and introduction of too many new characters was the undoing of the narrative in the books. Hopefully, the show's producers rein that in.

Running a-puck:I can only think of one more big 'shocker' event coming up from the books in any case. The thing that gets me is that the TV series seems to have completely dropped the plotline about Jon Snow's parentage.

Why not? GRRM let it languish for so long that book fans have already figured it out.

And the three headed dragon prophecy as well.

Good god I hope so. The Big Prophecy of Doom is the #1 most overused and tired cliché in all of fantasy writing. #2 is the Big Magic To Save the World. I'd love it if GRRM avoided both, although it's pretty clear from the get go that we're gonna get dragons vs. white walkers eventually. Prophecy has always seemed to me to be too spoilerish and lazy writing besides. I want the story to unfold naturally towards what makes sense, not inevitably towards Unavoidable Destiny.

There are hints we may get this: Melisandre is clearly taking credit for her god killing Robb Stark and Joffrey when of course there was no divine intervention at all there. I'd just love it if all the mysterious oracles and grim prophesies turned out to be just flat out wrong.

Confabulat:Running a-puck: The thing that gets me is that the TV series seems to have completely dropped the plotline about Jon Snow's parentage

Not exactly. He even brought it up last night.

Ah, I'm actually a season behind on the TV show, I could only remember Ned saying that he'd discuss it with Jon the next time they met

Persnickety:Good god I hope so. The Big Prophecy of Doom is the #1 most overused and tired cliché in all of fantasy writing. #2 is the Big Magic To Save the World. I'd love it if GRRM avoided both, although it's pretty clear from the get go that we're gonna get dragons vs. white walkers eventually. Prophecy has always seemed to me to be too spoilerish and lazy writing besides. I want the story to unfold naturally towards what makes sense, not inevitably towards Unavoidable Destiny.

There are hints we may get this: Melisandre is clearly taking credit for her god killing Robb Stark and Joffrey when of course there was no divine intervention at all there. I'd just love it if all the mysterious oracles and grim prophesies turned out to be just flat out wrong

There has been at least one prophecy that failed, Dany giving birth to the Stallion the Mounts the World being the prime example. So it's not completely unavoidable, it appears.

Persnickety:Running a-puck: I can only think of one more big 'shocker' event coming up from the books in any case. The thing that gets me is that the TV series seems to have completely dropped the plotline about Jon Snow's parentage.

Why not? GRRM let it languish for so long that book fans have already figured it out.

And the three headed dragon prophecy as well.

Good god I hope so. The Big Prophecy of Doom is the #1 most overused and tired cliché in all of fantasy writing. #2 is the Big Magic To Save the World. I'd love it if GRRM avoided both, although it's pretty clear from the get go that we're gonna get dragons vs. white walkers eventually. Prophecy has always seemed to me to be too spoilerish and lazy writing besides. I want the story to unfold naturally towards what makes sense, not inevitably towards Unavoidable Destiny.

There are hints we may get this: Melisandre is clearly taking credit for her god killing Robb Stark and Joffrey when of course there was no divine intervention at all there. I'd just love it if all the mysterious oracles and grim prophesies turned out to be just flat out wrong.

Anyone who wasn't pretty much certain about Jon's parents after being beaten over the head with it in the first book .. isn't made for this sort of series.

Spoilerish? I kind of feel like the books are going to eventually end up in a place where fire and ice are both equally destructive and possibly even good depending on how they're balanced. That the assumption that fire and dragons are good is just because the Targaryens were so dominant for so long, and that Westeros is only now seeing "ice" again since the Targs are pretty much gone from Westeros (especially the ruling part). Plus that the Doom of Valyria was related to people goin a little too crazy with the fire magic and not being able to control it. Mel is already building up that her religion isn't exactly good, and there's enough there about Coldhands and NK and the Starks and Bloodraven's lines about darkness that there's potential for "ice" to not be absolutely bad, just currently demonized. Anyway! I think Jon's significance will have more to do with the power struggle between the two forces and it'll all come down more to choices than epic prophecy. We've spent a ton of time watching Dany try to rule and learn to balance her sense of justice, the power of her dragons, and the good of the people. It's possible all of that was rambling padding, but it seems more likely its building up for similar themes in Westeros once all hell breaks loose.

NicktheSmoker:Persnickety: Confabulat: Personally, I hope they ditch the books altogether from now on. There's only a couple of things left I'd actually like to see on film.

This * 1e12

We're getting into book 4 material now and things start going downhill fast. Dany, Bran, Brienne and (sadly) Tyrion get dull really quickly. Even Cersei's chapters started to bore me since it was clear where her story was heading almost immediately.

The coming diaspora and introduction of too many new characters was the undoing of the narrative in the books. Hopefully, the show's producers rein that in.

You people say these things like its fact written in stone. Fact is though some of us do not have ADD and think the direction the books go in 4-5 are great. I miss the iron islands stuff, the actual Asha being badass, and her uncles. I liked the dornish stuff and tyrions plot is great.

This. And I don't understand why people hated Dany's attempts at ruling. She's a little girl dealing with a society that just had its entire economy and social structure upended. And she does as good as any Westeros leader. Tyrion could've spent a chapter or two less on a boat but other than that..

mcgreggers99:This is why when I look at this modern golden age of television and specifically the translation of books to TV, the Walking Dead stands tall is such a good show. Even if you've read the entire comic series and have foreknowledge of characters and story arcs used for the show, they use elements but almost never follow the book exactly. It's the best of both worlds and allows you be completely surprised.

*Spoiler* Andrea's death in season 3 was a perfect example of this.

You picked the worse character change for your example. If your going to mention one that's better on tv then the books it's got to be Carol

Phineas is going to warg into Perry the Platypus (GLGLGLGLGRR!), Ferb is going to hallucinate building a 700 foot tall robot made of ice while having a fit, and Candice Meera is going to try to bust them?

Strik3r:That's not "ruling a kingdom", that's commanding an army... There's a HUGE difference...../if she has done any "ruling", we haven't seen it in the HBO series.

In the books (and pretty sure the show) she's like 15 or 16. She doesn't know how to rule, she's just a child with an overzealous sense of 'justice'. The polar opposite of Joffrey: ruling by emotion rather than self control and discipline.

Persnickety:Running a-puck: I can only think of one more big 'shocker' event coming up from the books in any case. The thing that gets me is that the TV series seems to have completely dropped the plotline about Jon Snow's parentage.

Why not? GRRM let it languish for so long that book fans have already figured it out.

And the three headed dragon prophecy as well.

Good god I hope so. The Big Prophecy of Doom is the #1 most overused and tired cliché in all of fantasy writing. #2 is the Big Magic To Save the World. I'd love it if GRRM avoided both, although it's pretty clear from the get go that we're gonna get dragons vs. white walkers eventually. Prophecy has always seemed to me to be too spoilerish and lazy writing besides. I want the story to unfold naturally towards what makes sense, not inevitably towards Unavoidable Destiny.

There are hints we may get this: Melisandre is clearly taking credit for her god killing Robb Stark and Joffrey when of course there was no divine intervention at all there. I'd just love it if all the mysterious oracles and grim prophesies turned out to be just flat out wrong.

I can think of, off the top of my head, at least three people who completely fit the bill for Azor Ahai and that's not even counting Stannis.

Then you get the random minor bits of prophecy like "beware the perfumed seneschal" which could be that one guy from Essos that likes wearing perfume, or it could be the ship named the Stinky Steward or it could be something completely different. Or the fact that basically all of the "impossible" stuff that Mirri Maz Durr compared Drogo returning to normal to has been happening in the background, but not only is that never noted explicitly, I don't see Drogo waking up any time soon.

So my feeling is that the prophecies probably will be mostly fulfilled, if only because by the time things wrap up, half the cast will fit the bill for the prophecied savior in some way, shape or form, allowing the winner to take the title even though pretty much anyone else could've as well.

/the scenes with Dany in this episode were awful, some of the worst in the show so far...they went way overboard on the melodramatic savior angle//completely atoned for by great scenes with Jamie and Tyrion and Littlefinger...pretty much being Littlefinger

Delta1212:Persnickety: Running a-puck: I can only think of one more big 'shocker' event coming up from the books in any case. The thing that gets me is that the TV series seems to have completely dropped the plotline about Jon Snow's parentage.

Why not? GRRM let it languish for so long that book fans have already figured it out.

And the three headed dragon prophecy as well.

Good god I hope so. The Big Prophecy of Doom is the #1 most overused and tired cliché in all of fantasy writing. #2 is the Big Magic To Save the World. I'd love it if GRRM avoided both, although it's pretty clear from the get go that we're gonna get dragons vs. white walkers eventually. Prophecy has always seemed to me to be too spoilerish and lazy writing besides. I want the story to unfold naturally towards what makes sense, not inevitably towards Unavoidable Destiny.

There are hints we may get this: Melisandre is clearly taking credit for her god killing Robb Stark and Joffrey when of course there was no divine intervention at all there. I'd just love it if all the mysterious oracles and grim prophesies turned out to be just flat out wrong.

I can think of, off the top of my head, at least three people who completely fit the bill for Azor Ahai and that's not even counting Stannis.

Then you get the random minor bits of prophecy like "beware the perfumed seneschal" which could be that one guy from Essos that likes wearing perfume, or it could be the ship named the Stinky Steward or it could be something completely different. Or the fact that basically all of the "impossible" stuff that Mirri Maz Durr compared Drogo returning to normal to has been happening in the background, but not only is that never noted explicitly, I don't see Drogo waking up any time soon.

So my feeling is that the prophecies probably will be mostly fulfilled, if only because by the time things wrap up, half the cast will fit the bill for the prophecied savior in some way, shape or form, allowing the winner to take the ...

I think you're looking at it exactly right. We're not going to get a beam of light from heaven magically transforming Jon Snow into a new incarnation of a mythical hero. The prophecies - and religions, for that matter - are only relevant to the extent that the characters choose to adhere to them. So while some of the visions are probably legit and are meant to be literal - Dany in the House of the Undying, for example - what matters about TPWWP and AA is how people - like Melisandre - interpret them and choose to act in furtherance of the prophesied future.

Books 4 and 5 are really one book broken into 2 tomes (yes I know Martin rewrote a lot of 5), so I expect to see a lot from both books mixed up in the series so we don't get too much concentrated character POV. This is especially true as some of the stories told are flashbacks in memory, and we've already seen one of those stories told already in real time.

doloresonthedottedline:Spoilerish? I kind of feel like the books are going to eventually end up in a place where fire and ice are both equally destructive and possibly even good depending on how they're balanced. That the assumption that fire and dragons are good is just because the Targaryens were so dominant for so long, and that Westeros is only now seeing "ice" again since the Targs are pretty much gone from Westeros (especially the ruling part). Plus that the Doom of Valyria was related to people goin a little too crazy with the fire magic and not being able to control it. Mel is already building up that her religion isn't exactly good, and there's enough there about Coldhands and NK and the Starks and Bloodraven's ...

Yes, it would be interesting if the books went down the route of moral relativism, where the gods in play don't really care about what's going on at a moral or personal level. They have their own conflict and it plays out in their own terms.

I'm actually thinking that the Greenseers may be a third front in the conflict between R'hllor and the Great Others. It's possible that they may actually have been the ones putting a damper on magic and dragons through the years, trying to keep fire from gaining influence after ice was defeated outright in the War for the Dawn.

It's also possible that the Greenseers might be involved in a separate rivalry of some kind against the Shadowbinders of Assahi. It's not clear on what level they would interact, but they both seem to by vying to be "the man behind the curtain" once all the hoo-hah ends.