One time I saw a documentary about Lilith (I forget which channel). In it she was described as being the first feminist (or she resembling to hold feminist views) and for that reason alone I liked her. I'd definitely like to learn more about her as she seems to have inspired a lot of literature in the Western world.

Ani, how come there is an "Armenian Lilith" section on that website? And why do we have the name Lilit as well? And you don't need to apologize for posting about Lilith. I find her interesting

Arpa, why do you find the need to constanly restrict the members' action on this forum? So what that Lilith has a Biblical connotation? Most of the Western literature and music has Bibilical connotation. To refrain members from posting about such topics is a bit unbecoming of Hyeforum.

Armenian "Lilit" and "Lilith" is the same name. The ending has to do with the Armenian letter "th" (as in titer) which corresponds to the Greek letter "theta" in both alphabets, the Greek "theta" appears in the English language as "th".

Another example is the word "theory", which is from Greek and is written in Armenian with the same "th" as in the letter in Lilit.

And you don't need to apologize for posting about Lilith. I find her interesting ===== Arpa, why do you find the need to constanly restrict the members' action on this forum? So what that Lilith has a Biblical connotation? Most of the Western literature and music has Bibilical connotation. To refrain members from posting about such topics is a bit unbecoming of Hyeforum.

Maybe I do.It saddens me every time I come here and question why am I even here when I see that we talk about everybody else, specially two other people a tousand times more than we talk about ourselves. Has everything about us been said already? Do we know anything about us? Why we seem to know more about Tews and Jurks than we know about ourselves?How many times have I tried in vain to stir us to talk about our women, be they historical or contemporary. See my thread ” 52%“ in Gender Issues and see how many responses we got, that is, aside from a few silly and sexist jokes . What do we know about Anahid, Astghik, Nane, Shushanik, Sandoukht, Sylva , Sosseh and my more. OK, so Lilith is a name used by Armenian women, so is Natalia/Natasha, Victoria , Elizabth and Katerina . Shall we talk about them ad infinitum? Is this HyeForum, i.e. Armenian Forum? Can we talk about and learn about us once in a while for a change? Who the hell cares if Lilith is mentioned in the Bible? Do those who claim to have written that book know who or what Aanhit and Parandzem** are? It is curious that Isahakian has written about her, so did Charents, and even Sevak write about biblical characters, yet the irony is that all of them were supposed to officially be atheists just as Varuzhan was a hethanos/pagan.

from memory:: as far as "lilith" being herya, the fact is is that her legend is an archetype that can be found worldwide, but is near eastern in origin, which includes the ancient armenian territories. the archetype was widespread in the ancient near east, but protections against her and this type of "alive symbol" in folk belief and the unconscious persist to today-particularly in the fears of certain types of men and also reactionary repressed women with no spine to speak of.

the first mention of the Lilitu is in relation to sumerian mythos and texts where the goddess inanna asks a male friend -Dumuzi, if i remember right-to cut down a tree where "the dark maid lilith lives" and the "Zu" bird lives.

one of her original (Sumerian )names is kisikil udakkarra or kisikil lilake; "the dark maiden who has seized the light". She is an archetype of a female Prometheus , or light-bringer ( hence a better word may be luciferian).

herya pikced her up, but as a demon, such as Igrat bat Mahlath or of the "qlippothic" variant in malkuth; the root of the word for night in semitic languages-Lyl- is connected to the name.

as she arrived into biblical mythology, she was said to be the first mate of adam. however, she refused to lie beneath him (be subjugated), sprouted wings, flew to the shores of the red sea and cavorted with spirits for sheer fun until the tyrant Jhvh or "yaldaboth" sent angels to slay her offspring, ala passover fun i suppose. so the great god in the sky made eve to be adams submissive helpmett, but adam had a problem being attracted to eve, so lilith disguised herself as a serpent to give them a little help. check Hypostatis of the ARchons in the NAg Hammadi for more. Biblical script is isaih 34:14 where she is referred to as teh "great screech owl"

common in this archetype is the anti-authoritarian and promethean element as well as night, night birds, fleeing, strange feet (like aisha qandisha in morocco or the churail of south asia ) , sleep apnea and erotic but horrible dreams, desert places, unabashed nondomesticated female sexuality- a threatening sexuality in fact to the point where it is demonized by a repressive power-structure, the power of the repressed, the obscure, underworld, etc....she would be a spandermat type for armenians and i suppose we could find connections to vishap legends as well , as opposed to a domesticated hera or "de-toothed"/"declawed" variant of Anahid who only gets to play the role of the corralled mother in many interpretations or a mere genitive force. a levantine variant of her is Anat.

in persian archetypes, it is AZ or JEH.

there is a male counterpart as well that constantly pops up.

in occidental modern narrative, she is commonly found in thelemic texts as a correspondant of "Babalon". Jack Parsons -a rocket scientist-wrote a beautiful poem called the Birth of Babalon which shows a Lilit type influence on his characterization of the thelemic Babalon.additionally, this archetype is popular in "lhp" narrative, poetry and so forth. in hoodoo in the south in the u.s., she's referenced as "the lady in red", or in where more african trad has remained in voudon proper as a loa of the "red type" (ge rouge)such as "ERzulie ge Rouge/Ezili ge Rouge" . she can also be corresponded to the loa Oya when the bs is dropped. further south, some have claimed that Madame Charlotte is more appropriate for this model / belief system.Syncretic systems , again in the more latin area in the u.s., many say that "Arana de Reyna" ( queen of the spiders) is a better correspondance. next door in texas, there is the La llorona legend which persists.

in short, an archetype premised on liberation and the shadow side of things, so to speak, which has sparked some great poetry for some and nightmares for t\others.

Maybe I do.It saddens me every time I come here and question why am I even here when I see that we talk about everybody else, specially two other people a tousand times more than we talk about ourselves. Has everything about us been said already? Do we know anything about us? Why we seem to know more about Tews and Jurks than we know about ourselves?How many times have I tried in vain to stir us to talk about our women, be they historical or contemporary. See my thread ” 52%“ in Gender Issues and see how many responses we got, that is, aside from a few silly and sexist jokes . What do we know about Anahid, Astghik, Nane, Shushanik, Sandoukht, Sylva , Sosseh and my more. OK, so Lilith is a name used by Armenian women, so is Natalia/Natasha, Victoria , Elizabth and Katerina . Shall we talk about them ad infinitum? Is this HyeForum, i.e. Armenian Forum? Can we talk about and learn about us once in a while for a change? Who the hell cares if Lilith is mentioned in the Bible? Do those who claim to have written that book know who or what Aanhit and Parandzem** are? It is curious that Isahakian has written about her, so did Charents, and even Sevak write about biblical characters, yet the irony is that all of them were supposed to officially be atheists just as Varuzhan was a hethanos/pagan.

**Does anyone even know who Parandzem is?

To answer your question Arpa, here it is;

Arshak II, Papes and Varazdat

The adoption of Christianity put an end to the pagan traditions and abolished the secular fine arts and poetry. The Persian influence was still very strong in Armenia, but now armenia and Persia worshipped different Gods. The political consequences of the evolution were tragic. A series of wars weakened Armenia during the ruling of Arshak II. The Persian King Shapur II succeeded in sowing discord between Arshak II and his principal feudal lords, called Nakharars. Some of the lords defected to Shapur. The Armenian King was summoned to Persia and then imprisoned for life in the Castle of Oblivion. His wife, Queen Parandzem, led the Armenian defense in the Artagers castle, but after 14 months of siege was also imprisoned, taken to Persia and then killed.

"Sixteen hundred years ago Queen Parandzem was passing by with a large army by Odzun, Armenia. The army made a stopover in Odzun and an epidemic broke out. They began to drink water from Odzun's springs and the epidemic stopped. Queen Parandzem prayed and said: "Thanks God, you have bestowed life-giving water on us."

How many times have I tried in vain to stir us to talk about our women, be they historical or contemporary. See my thread ” 52%“ in Gender Issues and see how many responses we got, that is, aside from a few silly and sexist jokes . What do we know about Anahid, Astghik, Nane, Shushanik, Sandoukht, Sylva , Sosseh and my more.

Yes, you're right Arpa. I agree. I don't know anything about the names mentioned. And you do write a lot about our language and history. And that's why I visit this forum, not to post that much but to read and learn from you and everyone else who writes about our culture. I always read your posts in the language section but I have nothing to offer and therefore I don't reply. But regarding this specific thread - what's wrong with learning about this too? See, I didn't know that she had near eastern origins as well! Vayri's post is very interesting and educational. If we'd immediately dismissed this thread then we wouldn't know that Lilith exists in other cultures and mythologies.

And regarding Jews - what can we do? Planet Earth is a very small planet for different ethnic peoples to exists simultanously! The Jews are everywhere (just like Armenians!) and they happen to be involved in any subject matter. Should we stop talking altogether? Again, bringing in my own profession: I'm a big fan of Arthur Rubinstein. What can I say, I can't resist the man's Chopin interpretations! Should I dismiss his artistry because he was a Jew?

Yes, you're right Arpa. I agree. I don't know anything about the names mentioned. And you do write a lot about our language and history. And that's why I visit this forum, not to post that much but to read and learn from you and everyone else who writes about our culture. I always read your posts in the language section but I have nothing to offer and therefore I don't reply. But regarding this specific thread - what's wrong with learning about this too? See, I didn't know that she had near eastern origins as well! Vayri's post is very interesting and educational. If we'd immediately dismissed this thread then we wouldn't know that Lilith exists in other cultures and mythologies.

And regarding Jews - what can we do? Planet Earth is a very small planet for different ethnic peoples to exists simultanously! The Jews are everywhere (just like Armenians!) and they happen to be involved in any subject matter. Should we stop talking altogether? Again, bringing in my own profession: I'm a big fan of Arthur Rubinstein. What can I say, I can't resist the man's Chopin interpretations! Should I dismiss his artistry because he was a Jew?

Bolorovin hamadzayn em, Anoushik jan. I too come here to learn and am exposed to such a wealth of history and culture that I have not acquired in any class of any subject. I am endlessly thankful to those persons who take the time to contribute and educate the rest of us who do not know the history and the story of our people. You cannot imagine how much time I spend researching and reading older posts in the wee hours of the morning instead of sleeping. I can't help it. I have found a piece of MYSELF here.

But why limit ourselves to only our story? Why not soak up and take in different subjects and the stories of different people? I used to ask my grandparents why they speak Turkish so fluently and use the language in our home. I remember being quite young and hating the facts that they spoke this dirty language. My grandmother used to tell me that a smart woman should know the language of her enemy. I do not know if anyone agrees with this but it made all the sense in the world to me. Why not learn all that we can? I for example am fascinated to find out that Lilith is such a symbolic legend/persona in history. My sister is named Lilit. The info on the site is quite interesting. I remain a loyal student and am ready and willing to learn all that my fellow members care to teach me.

====And regarding Jews - what can we do? Planet Earth is a very small planet for different ethnic peoples to exists simultanously! The Jews are everywhere (just like Armenians!) and they happen to be involved in any subject matter. Should we stop talking altogether? Again, bringing in my own profession: I'm a big fan of Arthur Rubinstein. What can I say, I can't resist the man's Chopin interpretations! Should I dismiss his artistry because he was a Jew?

Most of the below does not belong here in this thread, but since it was brought up…

I know Arthur Rubinstein and I admire him as much.But you are skirting the issue. Have I ever insisted we not talk about individuals, be they artists, musicians , scientists and philosopher simply because they happen to be Jewish? That would be hypocritical to ay least. Shall we not talk about George Gershwin, Benny Goodman, Leonard Bernstein, James Levine and more simply because they are Jewish? How about that greatest Jew of them all- Jesus? By the same token. Shall we measure every Armenian by the standards of Khachaturian and Komitas, to mention a few? There are saints and satans in every nation.Like I said. You are missing the point or twisting it around. Just for the heck of it, read what is going on in the thread about “Jewish Lobbies“, and then tell me why I am reluctant to talk about them. Who said that they owe us anything? Who said that our entire destiny is tied to their’s and that they are guardians of our destiny? Many years ago, even decades ago, I had warned us to let go of them, since I knew even then that we had very little common with them, and that they have so much common with the Turks, as none of the neighbors of either of them has any love lost for them. Of course, even then I was pooh-poohed by many of our pundits that our destiny was so similar that they owed us. That was during the days when they had not yet bared their claws and openly sided with the Turks. And ever since, according to some here they have become our number one “enemy”. I had never entrusted our destiny to them, and so now I am not disappointed either.Speaking of “lobby”. How would they like it if our lobbies would join with the Holocaust denialists, and lobby the US government to suppress the Hanakah, and Rosh Hashanah. After all this is a Christian country and we don’t like the idea of the entire Christmas season to be superseded with their holidays. How would they like if we would lobby all the TV stations to not show any holocaust programs which they do 100 times a day. That is what we are talking about. By all means let us talk about Rubinstein,, Heifetz, Oistrah, Stern, Perlman, Levine or Bernstein.,In conclusion. If we never again talk about them as a race that is for or against us it will be too soon, until that is, they realize that the Turks are using them . I have asked this so many times. If in fact they and the Turks are such long time lovers, then why during 500 years of Ottoman hegemony of the region, a state of Israel was not created and it had to wait until the Ottomans were kicked out of Palestine by the Arabs in collaboration with the British? Shall we ask Lawrence of Arabia?

This is not a rhetorical question as I don’t know the answer. Why are so many Armenians girls named Lilith? Where does it come from? Who started it? Did Isahakian’s poem have anything to do wit it? I understand that it is a cute and catchy feminine name though.. Do we think it is a variation of Lily/Shushan?

I used to ask my grandparents why they speak Turkish so fluently and use the language in our home. I remember being quite young and hating the facts that they spoke this dirty language. My grandmother used to tell me that a smart womanshould know the language of her enemy. I do not know if anyone agrees with this but it made all the sense in the world to me. Why not learn all that we can? I for example am fascinated to find out that Lilith is such a symbolic legend/persona in history. My sister is named Lilit. The info on the site is quite interesting. I remain a loyal student and am ready and willing to learn all that my fellow members care to teach me.

That comes from an old Turkish saying. Actually it is 99% Arabic; "her lisan bir insan", "every langusge is a person".So judging from the above, that since we know Turkish we are so much smarter than them who don'r even know how to say "Barev, inch pes es"?If we were so smart we would make them learn Armenian and not the visa versa.

Բազմալեզու Արփա, what remains to be asked is where did you pick up your Turkish? Judging by your posts it seems that you read quite a few languages, including Arabic, English, Turkish, and maybe French and Persian.

Maybe I do.It saddens me every time I come here and question why am I even here when I see that we talk about everybody else, specially two other people a tousand times more than we talk about ourselves. Has everything about us been said already? Do we know anything about us? Why we seem to know more about Tews and Jurks than we know about ourselves?How many times have I tried in vain to stir us to talk about our women, be they historical or contemporary. See my thread ” 52%“ in Gender Issues and see how many responses we got, that is, aside from a few silly and sexist jokes . What do we know about Anahid, Astghik, Nane, Shushanik, Sandoukht, Sylva , Sosseh and my more. OK, so Lilith is a name used by Armenian women, so is Natalia/Natasha, Victoria , Elizabth and Katerina . Shall we talk about them ad infinitum? Is this HyeForum, i.e. Armenian Forum? Can we talk about and learn about us once in a while for a change? Who the hell cares if Lilith is mentioned in the Bible? Do those who claim to have written that book know who or what Aanhit and Parandzem** are? It is curious that Isahakian has written about her, so did Charents, and even Sevak write about biblical characters, yet the irony is that all of them were supposed to officially be atheists just as Varuzhan was a hethanos/pagan.

**Does anyone even know who Parandzem is?

Enough has been said already...

But Yes, i do know who Parandzem Taguhi is, or Sosse Mayrik, or others...Maybe not as much as You do, but i lrearned and read as much as it was possible in those dark and cold days, when lessons were 15 minutes long, and after a week of classes everyone was sick for a month(it was colder outside than inside)...

I just dont see your point..Jesus was Jewish too, does it mean that by talking about him, we ignore Ara Gegetsik, Tigran Mec, Monte Melkonyan and others...?

There are women that nowadays live in Armenia and Arcax, who did nothing less than Sosse Mayrik, and i hope that people will eventually find out about them...But, yes, this is irrelevant to this topic...

There are people here that really are trying to learn about our culture and history...I am very happy to be in a place where i feel closer to my culture and people...

I don't think you got my point.Whe I mentioned Jesus, (Rubinstein, Heifetz etc.) I meant a person who (maybe)happens to be Jewish. Just like all the other individual artists we cited. But how does that justify us talking about them as a collective people day in and day out, every minute of the day? As i said before, there are saints and satans in every nation. Do we know anything about our own people? Let's hear it. Tell us about Sosse Mayrik.Did you visit those other threads and see how they are talking? One saying Jews our best friends, and we have 99% Jewish blood, and the others saying "Jews are our worst enemies".By all means, let us talk bout Sosse Mayrik and othrs. How about Naira Melkumian who was the foreign minister of Artsakh for quite sometime, and now she is an MP in the Assembly of Armenia?Can we separate worthy individuals, be they Jew or Gentile from their racial stereotype? And stop talking about Jews a million times more than we talk about about ourselves?I GIVE UP!I DON'T THINK I AM GETTING ACROSS!

I don't think you got my point.Whe I mentioned Jesus, (Rubinstein, Heifetz etc.) I meant a person who (maybe)happens to be Jewish. Just like all the other individual artists we cited. But how does that justify us talking about them as a collective people day in and day out, every minute of the day?

But when do we do that? When do we talk about them day in and day out? I think you're exaggerating a bit

Hamestapayl tikinner yev oriordner.I think you have all said enough, in fact, more than enough.I kind of feel responsible for this war. Yet I don’t regret having said what I said.My intention was to anticipate potential war of words at the sight of the J word.It seems I may have succeeded that our main resident BagratJewni has not pounced on us with his Chino-Judeo-Bagratuni kaka.We know very well that the majority of our correspondents remain dormant until they see words beginning with J, T and G. The latter two may be understandable but there are those among us who only wake up when they see the J word, and we waste a lot of time and energy either bashing or praising them. Personally, I would not give a rat’s arse to who and what they are, to me they have as much, or even less to do with our saga than the Zimbabweians.Finally. I would have felt vindicated as it seems our J -basher/praisers may have felt to suppress their urge to jump at the J word. I am sorry if I initiated another war trying to avoid one war. Now, can we get back to business as usual??Thank you all.