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Topic: Cure for a 'whimpy' TS? (Read 14978 times)

I just bumped into this comment over on SMC. The LAST thing I want to do is ressurrect the recently deceased but I found this truly ironic. Just to be clear, this was someone else's remark. I am more than happy with my Festool saws but, clearly, Hilti knows a good thing when they see it.

"I recently picked up the Hilti WSC 267-E saw and looked at various guide rail options. I too considered purchasing the Hilti saw in a package that includes a guide rail, as listed on this thread. I also considered purchasing the EZ Smart Guide and adapter base plate. What I discovered is that the Festool guide rail and the Hilti saw are interchangeable so I purchased the Festool guide rail. This setup works awesome.

I provide this information for anyone looking for another option to purchasing the Festool system or Hilti 267-E with the EZ Smart Guide. I did not have to change the base of the saw, I simply put the saw on the Festool guide rail and it works."

« Last Edit: February 26, 2007, 10:13 PM by greg mann »

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Greg MannOakland, Michigan

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I won't complain about Festool's web site anymore. I just tried to get information on this Hilti saw from Hilti's web site. I still don't know what the depth of cut is on the 267.

It is good to know it fits the Festool guide rails. Someone who owns a Festool 55 saw and finds he needs more depth of cut and can't justify the cost of the TS 75 could get by with this saw and save $250.

I'm pretty sure that the cutting depth is 65mm versus 55mm with the TS55 and 75mm for the TS75. The TS75 is $550 while the Hilti appears to be $300. However, there are few caveats...

The TS75 comes with a $75 guide rail. So the real difference in price is $175. And, I question how well it fits the Festool guide rails. Hilti makes their own rail (one 1400mm rail) and I suspect that the Hilti saw is designed for their own rail.

Then there is the question of safety and dust collection. With the TS55/75, the blade is enclosed. The Hilti uses the traditional open design with blade guard. I have no evidence, but I suspect that the Festool design is safer and has better dust collection.

I'm obviously biased because I own Festool, but I think it would be a smarter move to either 1) buy into the Festool system, 2) go with a Hilti and it's guide rail, or 3) use a standard circular saw with an inexpensive guide rail like Hartville Tool's "Hart Design Red-Line Cutting Guide". Combining Festool rails with non-Festool saws doesn't make sense to me. For example...

What's the alignment procedure for a Hilti saw on a Festool guide rail? Or, is the Hilti saw blade at the correct distance from the Festool guide rail's splinter guard so that the splinter guard works correctly? Does the Hilti have guide jaw adjusters (like the TS55/75)? Do they work properly with Festool guide rails?

It looks like you COULD use a Festool guide rail with other saws, but SHOULD you? Is it worth money? It's not worth it to me, but it might be to others.

Regards,

Dan.

p.s. out of curiosity, I looked at Home Depot. It appears that they carry the cheap Hilti 167, not the 267. Not in the same category.

Yeah, when comparing tools it's important to lay out all the features that matter. I too had a moment of "oh, that's cheaper" when I discovered the EZ Smart rails, but then I realized that the primary reason we were going with Festool was the dust collection, the other features are a happy secondary.

It's way too easy to fixate on the one thing that both tools do and forget that there are other possibly important features. An additional question I'd add is: If the blade is at the right place for the rubber strip on the guide rail, does the Hilti saw's pivot point for bevel cuts happen at the bottom of that rubber strip the way the Festool's saws do?

And the problem of Home Depot/Wal*Mart/whatever carrying cheaper versions of brands we think of as quality is only going to get worse unless we as consumers start to get really picky. There are a few manufacturers who won't dilute their brand that way, but far too often you have to read the fine print when you buy a product from one of the big box retailers to make absolutely certain that it's the product you thought you were buying.

I saw the Hilti 267 at my local HD and was first impressed that it had a dust chute at all. Then I noticed that the shoe had a slot with adjusters so it potentially could fit a guide rail. It also has very good depth adjustment.

However, the opening next to the blade is huge which will greatly reduce the effectiveness of dust collection. I wouldn't be interested in one without knowing for sure that it rides a Festool guide rail well as a Festool saw does. While Hilti does have a good reputation the warranty on this saw is for only one year. Although it is cheaper it doesn't have as many features as Festool saws. The main problem with this saw for me is that it is not a plunge saw. I use that feature often.

I forgot that the bigger Festool saw is now has a 75 mm depth of cut. I guess the TS 75 cuts about 3/8" deeper than the Hilti, which is probably about 3/8" deeper than the TS 55. So, the Hilti s a cheaper saw with fewer features than a Festool saw, but more features than the other saws available in NA.

If I were to get a non-Festool saw, it would be for rough, framing type work. I wouldn't care if it worked with my rails, and it would likely be even less expensive than the Hilti--by about 100 USD. I regret getting rid of a thirty-year-old Skil sidewinder when I got my ATF55. I think Per recently posted on getting rid of old tools. He's right. Keep 'em if you possibly can.

I initially thought that the "whimpy" description was a reference to lack of power - is this the gist?My reason for asking, (just curious), is that I have read opinions that the TS55 lacks power. I have the saw and am very happy with it indeed. Having said that I have very little experience with circular saws apart from the TS55. So, for those users who feel that the TS lacks power, do they mean that it underperforms its rated 1200W, or do they mean that 1200W is too low for its expected tasks?Regards

I initially thought that the "whimpy" description was a reference to lack of power - is this the gist?My reason for asking, (just curious), is that I have read opinions that the TS55 lacks power. I have the saw and am very happy with it indeed. Having said that I have very little experience with circular saws apart from the TS55. So, for those users who feel that the TS lacks power, do they mean that it underperforms its rated 1200W, or do they mean that 1200W is too low for its expected tasks?Regards

Brian,

The TS55 is certainly a good bit less powerful than the typical circular saws sold in the US. Most of the ones worth buying, are 13 amps or more, while the TS55 is only 10 amps. Having said that, the TS55 really doesn't lack power (keep in mind I've been using a 13 amp worm drive for most of my adult life). It may seem that way to someone that is used to using a 13 amp saw. Keep in mind, the TS55 is not a tool that was intended to be used for rough framing (though you could do that if you really wanted to). For sheet goods, 4/4 hardwood etc. its all you'll ever need. If you want to rip thick hardwood with it, you're better off putting a Panther blade (or the General Purpose blade) on it for that purpose. With the correct blade, it'll cut anything you want it to. I use mine almost every day for lots of different tasks. I've never had an issue where I felt it needed more power. That includes cutting down 1-3/4" oak and mahogany doors (IMO, that's the thing where it really shines the most, blows the competition away). You do have to slow down your cut rate just a little bit, but any time that is lost in slowing down the saw is easily recovered in setup time and cleanup time.

I think most people that say the TS55 is underpowered just don't have a lot of experience with the saw. There's a small adjustment period involved with using it, that's it.

Brian, my use of the term wimpy is meant to reek with sarcasm. One doesn't criticize Ferrari because you can't haul gravel with it or Mack because they don't excel on the Formula circuit. The term was first used by an agent provocateur. That is why I isolated it in my post. There is nothing winpy about the TS55.

The comments regarding 167 vs. 267 are right on the mark. There was mass confusion in the aforementioned SMC thread regarding which saw was being quoted at what price, and this was with a Hilti rep involved. We may beat up Festool regarding what accessory comes with what tool but they at least know a TS55 from a TS75! My only reason for posting this at all was the irony involved relative to the nonsense we had just dealt with. But all the shortcomings of even the vaunted Hilti are pretty easy to see when it comes to doing what we want our saws to do. Once you start dealing with work-arounds and limitations the money initially saved disappears pretty fast.

It has become increasingly clear over the last 3-4 years that part of certain company's business model is to attack Festool at every opportunity and every level, not just saws and guiderails. Why? While the product of that particular business competes with Festool in only one small area, guiderails, anyone that takes the leap of faith into any aspect of the Festool range will immediately begin to appreciate the systemic approach of Festool and they no longer are a potential customer for you know who. Part of the irony is the minions need to the sing the praises of a third-party product, Hilti, in order to make their case. Every now and then someone posts a rumor about EZ coming out with their own saw that will blow the doors off everything. What a croc. The manufacture of even a cheesy power tool is several orders of magnitude more difficult than a guiderail. To blow the doors off Festool would be a Manhattan project. Not in our lifetimes, guys.

Oh, but wait! I forgot. You can get superior results using the cheapest Ryobi with a brick for a blade. We don't need no stinkin' Hilti!!! Sorry for the rant, guys. I had resolved to banish anger from my life several years ago and have been remarkably successful. There is something about this that just gets my goat. Time for a nice glass of wine. BTW, did I tell you guys that wine corks make good bench dogs in the MFT? They are a little big but I have a way of making them just the right size. If any of you want to send me a case of Fat Bastard Chardonnay I will alter the corks and send them back (the corks), no charge.

I am beginning to feel better already.

Added comment: Lou has really summed it up well. Think of it this way. For a moment you wondered if you had been suckered into buying an underpowered saw even though you were very happy with what it was doing for you. See how the Technique works. Now we go over to another forum and talk about how the Festool guys like their stuff but it all seems to be a little underpowered. Oh man, these guys should be selling vacuums door-to-door. Not Festools, of course.

I think Hilti probably makes an excellent saw and I am sure it is very powerful. One day I stopped by the Hilti store located beside my workplace and took a look at it. THe thoght of paying $400Cdn turned me off. First off the DC didn't look as effective as the Festool and it lacked Variable speed. These aren't deal breakers but they did help convince me to buy Festool

I got a chance to use a Hilti 267 not that long ago. One of my subs was actually given one why by the Hilti rep he deals with (he spends tons of money on Hilti fasteners every year). Make no mistake, its an excellent saw. Certainly a big step up from the typical Bosch, Dewalt, Milwaukee, PC versions that are sold by the truck load here in the US. It lacks the refinement of the Festool saw though. The Hilti is more powerful, but like I said above, its probably overkill. The better DC, the plunge feature, the variable speed and constant speed under load make the Festool an overall better saw IMO. FWIW, my sub likes my Festool better too.

Thank you for your responses.I should be absolutely clear on this. The TS55 is exactly the saw I want, delivering exactly the power I need.I have used it for everything from trimming near 2" thick oak gates, through sheetwork, to milling small MDF pieces very accurately. My question was simply seeking clarity as to what was being said.Regards

The compulsion to buy more Festools is only exceeded by the compulston to talk about them.

Dan.

I was at a friends house, he was out of state. I had my ETS150 and ct 33. Guess what his wife was lusting after? He is seriously looking at Festool now. It's great when the "boss" wants you get stuff. The only playing around I did was sanding and installing tongue and groove on his wall for him.Tom

We are the target of a guerrilla marketing campaign. The purpose of this campaign is to spread FUD - fear, uncertainty, and doubt. Is this paranoia? Nope. It's just about money.

Our "esteemed" competitor is in a bad position. He doesn't have a marketing advantage. Festool as a system makes a far superior solution. If you want the good stuff, Festool is the game. OTOH, if you want to save money, an inexpensive saw plus an inexpensive guide rail from Hartville tool is the best alternative. (That's the opinion of Fine Homebuilding, not me.)

So what does he do? He mounts a pathetic marketing campaign to discredit Festool. He sends his marketers over here with silly marketing messages to slam Festool.

A key part of that strategy is to pump up a competing saw like the Hilti. OK, it's a pretty good saw. But as part of a complete solution it's fair at best. As an inexpensive alternative, it doesn't make it

What they are doing is what all high pressure salesmen do when hyping a product which is inferior - they pump the downsides of our product and the upsides of their product. They say, it's cheaper, better, and more flexible. Unfortunately, when you closely examine their arguments, you find that they really mean "It's cheaper OR better OR more flexible!" Everything is out of context...

Unfortunately for these characters, Festoolians are a rather intelligent bunch. If you are into Festool, your analytical capacity is much higher than most. You don't accept the "common wisdom". You define your needs, evaluate the alternatives carefully, and go your own way regardless of what others say or do. Even if you buy his stuff, you do it for your reasons not his. Your "bull$hit meter is finely tuned to detect this kind of marketing silliness. That said...

I can't speak for everyone, but I believe that our strong emotional reactions to this garbage are based on his disrespect. He keeps spewing out garbage and expects me to swallow it. His marketing methods are insulting! He thinks I'm STUPID! It is an insult to my intelligence for him to treat me this way!

So in that vein, I extend my right middle finger to our esteemed competitor and say "#$%^ you and the horse you rode in on!"

Paranoia is the irrational fear that someone is out to get you. Guerrilla Marketing is just a rational (albeat underhanded) approach to selling your product. It's about sales and profits - the oldest motivation in the world.

The unfortunate problem is that the competitor in question has a long history of using Guerrilla Marketing to improve his sales. I and many others on this and other forums find this approach both insulting and offensive.

I suggest you read the forum rules. For reference, here's rule 8 that specifically relates to EZ:

Quote

And now, even more specific...8. Topics dealing with "Festool versus EZ Smart" will be closely monitored. Honest questions by curious customers are fine, but promotion of EZ Smart over Festool (or vice versa) will not be tolerated, nor will purely negative comparisons between Festool and EZ Smart for the purposes of promotion. If you do wish to raise this subject, please do so only in the "Off-Topic" area.

This rule results from a long history of problems. Paranoia has nothing to do with it.

BTW, there are some great opportunities to post about your experience with Festool products. Please take an opportunity to let us know about your projects.

When I first started reading this thread, i made a note to further investigate the Hilti 267. I am a very happy owner of the ATF 55, but would find a use for the TS 75 upon ocasion. I thought, the Hilti might be a reasonable option. (I still keep my old Milwaukee 7-1/2 for such situations). As i read on, i realized the plunge feature as well as the DC might not work as well. For many years while I was in the mason contracting biz, plunge cut meant to tip the saw plate so the blade was in the air at whatever angle it took to keep the blade clear of the cut, and then carefully drop the blade into the wood. I cut many holes in cennter of plywood this way with no problems like kick back. The cuts were sort of rough, but who cares when it was for concrete formwork or to make a notch for some scaffold application. it wos going into the scrap heap after use. When I bought my very first Festool toys, i brought my ATF 55, CT 33 and MFT 1080 home. i could hardly wait to try out the saw hooked up to the CT. Even more exciting was to try out the plunge cut feature. That was the real excitement.

I set up table, saw and vac and lined up the saw base with those impossible to reach tiny set screws so the saw rode gently along the guide bar with absolutely no wobble. When I was finally satified that all was set up to perfection, I took a deep breath to calm myself down a little, picked up on the back of the saw so the plate was resting at an angle as i was in the habit from so many years with my old Milwaukees. i squeezed the switch and heard the noise i had expected. I dropped the saw down into the wood. The only problem was, as I dropped the tool towards the wood, being as to how my method had created a slight misallignment, the blade chewed into the edge strip and continued across the guidebar.

I still have the guidebar with all of those gouges as reminder. i have not made that mistook again. What was the most encouraging in that little episode was that as the blade hit the guide bar, the tendency was for the saw to kick up into the air. We all know what happens with the Festool plunge saws as the saw goes into the air, the blade disappears up into the saw. Even if the saw had been thrown high enough for injury to operator, there is NO WAY for the blade to come into contact with body parts. I thought about that and have been a convert to Festool ever since. Converted might be understatement. THE BOSS around here describes it more as ADDICTED.

Apologies in advance, this is going all meta and is about the discussion, not about the topic of the discussion. I apologize, but, alas, I think we as a community are going to have to address this. Should the moderators choose to edit this thread, I would be okay with deleting this message.

You are wrong about my being in volation of the rules. I merely offered clarification. I stated some of the features of the Hilti. I said nothing about one being better than the other.

My concern with your posting is that you said "There has been so much mis-information in this thread", and yet the only one of the features you mentioned that had any tie-in to discussion in the thread was "Plunge feature". From the Hilti page on the WSC 267-E Circular Saw, it's not clear at all how that could possibly mean the same thing as it does on the Festool saws.

Further, your other bullet points made it sound like you were quoting from a brochure feature list, rather than addressing real concerns and participating in the conversation.

I have no particular fealty to Festool. I've bought a bunch of their products, and I like them, but if someone else comes up with better solutions, I'll buy those other products. However, especially in the case of people trolling for EZ Smart, the annoying part isn't the mention of the other products, it's that the people pimping those products aren't actually participating in the conversation at hand, they're just randomly inserting marketing copy as though it were germaine to the thread.

Your post did nothing to dispel that notion. And the trolls I've seen on the topic make me very negative on their product, not because I've seen evidence that there's anything wrong with it, but because of the associated advertising techniques.

In reading post #6 - Michael and post #12 - Lou, I noticed errors that should be corrected for the information of this forum.

On careful reading you are, indeed, correct. I think making those detailed points, mentioning which particular aspects you're responding to, initially would be a good thing. As someone else pointed out, it also looks like there's a lot of confusion between the 167 and the 267.

Were I interested in the product, details on how the saw plunges would interest me because I don't see that on the product page, and in some quick Googling around any depth adjustment I can find looks an awful lot like the depth setting on my old Skilsaw, which is not a model to be emulated.

But I guess we've engaged in enough moribund equine flagellation: The Hilti fits the Festool rail, those who have the Festool rail system and are interested in the Hilti can go find more information about it, if they're sources are any good they'll be able to get hands-on time with both saws and make their own decisions, and there are plenty of other places to find information on the EZ Smart.

Burt, "rear plunge" means the whole saw has to pivot on the back edge of the shoe and gradually be rocked into the wood while holding the blade guard in the up position doesn't it? This isn't at all what I refer to as plunge cutting since I'm interested in having the blade enter the wood exactly on the cut line without requiring a lot of skill, i.e., the shoe must stay on the guide rail.

Let me try to explain. First when you loosen the height nut on the Hilti, the saw is still very firm - has a minimum of side to side motion. The Hilti also has a depth stop for the plunge. You move the depth stop up the scale to where you want to stop your plunge. With the Nut loose on the saw height adjustment, you start the saw, plunge and cut. As with the Festool saws, the base remains firmly in the track at all times. The major differences - Festool is front plunge. Hilti is back plunge. Festool has a spring for automatic height return and the Hilti does not.