Gary - "We have been working behind the scenes on developing a new internet site under lovewins.us and are revamping the what-the-hell-is-hell.com site to make them both extremely well organized apologetic sites containing the best material available in a manner that will help people get the exact information they are looking for quickly and in a form they can pass on easily.

I'm hoping the shell of it will be workable within the next couple weeks. But then there is the gathering of content in the proper directories and edited and presented with good design. We need some volunteers who are willing to go through past discussion board posts to gather good answers to questions, particular Bible verses, as well as other types of arguments for and against universal salvation and the subject of Hell. Those interested in helping with the project should email me at gary at tentmaker.org."

What Gary's putting together is a website called Lovewins, that is going to be a database for specific UR-related information. It will be designed by particular, easy-to-find topics, with questions and answers, scriptures, posts from members at TM that specifically address that particular topic, and videos, etc.

It will address "hell" issues, UR, annihilation, aion, the Lake of Fire, etc., in a categorized search format.

A specific request right now is, if you have saved any outstanding posts, or if you can search your own posts for such, then plz post them into this thread. There will be more information added later, along with Gary's participation in this thread, but that's some info and request for now.

A good start for material is Google books.http://www.google.com/search?hl=nl&tbs=bks:1,bkv:f&tbo=p&q=universal+salvation&num=100Full view book are always in the public domain.If you found a good book use advanced search to find more books by the same author.All books can be diownloaded as a .pdf Most also as epub. That's another format that can be read with free software. Usally it's only 10% of the size of the .pdf files.So my suggestion is to post the links to the books in this thread.

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Elhanan Winchester's Universal Restoration would probably be a good read. It's available in Google Books. I'm bringing this up because I remember Martin Cisneros saying that book answered some questions concerning UR no-one else could answer.

1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Silent in this thread....I'm planning to download a lot of books from Google books.Free books that are out of copyright. That most often means at least 70 years old.It would be a good start if everyone posted the names of UR book authors.

1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Where to start.... Google is your friend I guess many people have bookmarked interesting sites. Posting them here is a good start.As I understand it Gary only focusses on UR. So that rules out many good articles that are not directly related to UR.That's basicly all I know.Below a relevant part of a email chat I had with Gary

Quote from: Gary

Tony, I'm trying to create a super apologetic site for the Victorious Gospel that has all the content laid out efficiently. I've messed with this for months and have been quite frustrated, haven't gotten very far, am almost starting all over again. We need to organize the material by scripture verse, by topic, by frequently asked questions. We will have a bible research page in which people can compare many translations, of which we will have several no hell versions. We need sections for early church views, great quotes, leaders who believed in UR. We should have the major UR books that are public domain on line to read and download. UR music section, audio and video, tracts, testimonials, comments, most popular reading on the subject, book reviews, newsletter subscriptions, forum, store, donate, links like "share this page," print this page, poetry, links, blog, search, sitemap, advertise recent books in store or amazon, NDE-OBE, non-English articles, etc.

It takes some work. But I think everybody can contribute at least a little. I would find it very odd that people on this site that studied the Bible for all their life don't have single good article stored somewhere on their PC......

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Quote from: Lefein on November 17, 2010, 02:04:25 AMI once had a thought, that might not answer your questions dear reader, but might put you on a train of thought to where God may lead.

Hell is separation from God, the traditional church, every church that has a doctrine of Eternal Damnation teaches that Hell is Separation from God (in some way or another, with, or without fire involved).

To be unsaved, is to be separated from God, the traditional church also teaches us this - because you can't have communion with God if you are not saved - thus says the doctrine. If a man is not separated from God (like the prodigal separated from his father) then he is with God, and has God, and if he is with, and has God then he cannot legitimately go to Hell. So in summary - The unsaved are separated from God.

God is Life, and so the unsaved being separated from God, are separated from Life. To be separated from life, is to be absent of it, and to be absent of Life is to be...well, dead.

So, the unsaved person is dead (let the dead bury their dead?) and separated from God. The saved person is full of Life, and is in the Father, as the Father is in him; no separation.

Wouldn't that not mean then, that the unsaved people are in Hell already? Since they are dead, and separated from God in their deadness? Eternal Damnation teaches that when an unsaved person dies, they are separated from God forever (they go to Hell). But here we find the unsaved are already dead, and already separated from God...Just like you and I once were. So, would they not already be in Hell...and being already in Hell, how can someone be cast into the place where they already dwell?

Ah, but this is the best part...

Since, the unsaved person is dead, and separated from God...for all intents and purposes - is already in Hell...already living in it...Just like you, and I once where...Do we not find ourselves having been saved? We are Christians after all...

Jesus saved us from Hell, pulled us right out of the middle of it. Death, Hell, and all that is Separation from God did not stop him, or hinder him one little bit.

Eternally lost in Hell? Not possible with God who picked us (unsaved, dead heathens) up out of Hell (separation) itself.

I don't think anyone is denying that the wicked will be destroyed - that is what you think these verses mean right? The wicked will be destroyed - I agree, hallelujah! There won't be any wicked people in heaven - it wouldn't be much of a heaven if there were still wicked people around?

However this destruction cannot mean annihilation or eternal death, for that would contradict all the other verses that have been raised - God will have all men to be saved - all will be made alive in Christ - every knee will bow and every tongue confess and even swear allegiance to Him. etc.

So it is imperative to understand what is meant when we read the wicked are destroyed.

Consider Saul/Paul. He should be viewed as the "everyman" - the model for all conversion. First note it was God who did the converting - God is in control. Secondly why was he first called Saul - the chief of sinners who persecuted and killed many, but then when he was converted he became the great apostle Paul?

After Paul's conversion, Saul was no more - he was destroyed. The wicked Saul was destroyed by destroying the wickedness out of himself. This left only Paul.Saul was the old carnal self, Paul was the new creation. Note that we all start with a physical name, but when we are converted we are given a new name. The old man is destroyed.

We learn that names are written in the "book of life" (which is Christ). We can be rest assured that Saul was not written in the book of life, but Paul most certainly is. And so it will be for all of us. Like I said, Saul/Paul is the "everyman" - he is the model, for God is not respecter of persons; so all will be converted in a similar manner as Paul was.

And so the wicked are truly destroyed when our carnal self is fully and completely destroyed.

1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Below a part of a e-mail I recieved from Gary (site owner). I think it shows quite well what he's looking for.

Quote from: Gary

Tony, I'm trying to create a super apologetic site for the Victorious Gospel that has all the content laid out efficiently. I've messed with this for months and have been quite frustrated, haven't gotten very far, am almost starting all over again. We need to organize the material by scripture verse, by topic, by frequently asked questions. We will have a bible research page in which people can compare many translations, of which we will have several no hell versions. We need sections for early church views, great quotes, leaders who believed in UR. We should have the major UR books that are public domain on line to read and download. UR music section, audio and video, tracts, testimonials, comments, most popular reading on the subject, book reviews, newsletter subscriptions, forum, store, donate, links like "share this page," print this page, poetry, links, blog, search, sitemap, advertise recent books in store or amazon, NDE-OBE, non-English articles, etc.

So that's very easy. Gary wants everything UR related The "problem" is, imo, that he already has lots of good articles on his old/current site. Just my view: It should be stuff with some depth. www.books.google.com has lots of books that are out of copyright. Also many about UR. So I guess a list of those books (URLs) is very useful. But ofcourse it's Gary who makes teh final choice of what actually will be on his site. The keyword is LOTS

Gary plans to use this free software for his new site: http://wordpress.org/ Assuming I understand what exactly Gary wants to do the software doesn't support all needed functionality. The thousands of plugins are nice but I have yet to find very good ones that can be used for the site. So PERSONALLY I think someone that can do some programming would be great.

« Last Edit: November 28, 2010, 01:38:59 PM by WhiteWings »

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

A personal request.....I think it fits very well with what Gary is also looking for so I just ask my question here instead of starting a new thread for it."Jesus spoke about hell far more than He spoke about heaven."A often heared false claim. I did some counting of words using a program that gave me a list of verses.But of course that doesn't takes the context into account.

So my question is:Who has good articles on the subject that really analyse that claim?

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...