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Re: Ranking of Captains

Originally Posted by Duniak

1. In one post, you are treating Bleach as other reality, in which everything is logical, you analyze Aizen's mind, but you go with stupid "Shonen Hero" point in next post. I can say Aizen is fictional and is typical Shonen Villain. Intelligent, strong, to be killed my main hero.
2. It has nothing to do with Soul King. He didn't do shit. Yamaji made academy and I guess he made Seireitei, and other districts were divided by him I believe.

Re: Is Yamamoto Weaker than the Royal Guards?

Originally Posted by Kay3795

The feat Unohana's master displayed against Soifon (who is obviously on her period

The reason it was Soifon who questioned the Royal Guard was to show their level of power, and she was the fastest person present aside from the RG. Just like "Broken Bankai can never be fixed" was also a plot device to show how far beyond the RG is.

Originally Posted by Kay3795

can easily be displayed by 5 characters in this manga. I think I can literally name 20 characters possibly faster than Soifon.

Really? I think you can't. Aside from the Royal Guard, I can only name four characters that are that fast:

And when it comes to who is faster, then Yoruichi is out of the question, and so is Aizen, and consequently Yamamoto., therefore any of the other captains. So unless you count the Royal Guard, I don't your list will even reach five.

Soifon is neither slow or weak in any way, and she's never shown to lack skill either. But I guess she suffers from the Komamura syndrome that she's believed to be weak by the readers only because she has lost all her battles.

Re: Is Yamamoto Weaker than the Royal Guards?

Yeah, I understand that Soifon and Komamura aren't simply weak... but they are among the weaker captains, for sure.

Soifon's reatsu was so weak that Aizen could totally negate her sword's ability. Yourichi could beat her without using any weapon. She's a very new and inexperienced captain.

Komamura's also a fairly new captain. And Tousen, who was also a new captain, was easily able to destroy his bankai without even going bankai himself, or using hollow powers. Aizen took him out with a weak, unchanted Kido spell - which isn't totally fair, since it's Aizen - but still, we see that Komamura isn't exactly the strongest captain.

So yeah, both of them are strong, since they are captains in the Gotei 13. But when you compare them with the top fighters in all of Bleach, they are weak as hell.

Re: Is Yamamoto Weaker than the Royal Guards?

You are going to need some actual evidence to support that, because they have never been shown to be among the weakest.

Originally Posted by Cyrs

Soifon's reatsu was so weak that Aizen could totally negate her sword's ability.

No, Aizen's reiatsu was so powerful that it negated Soifon's ability; a Soifon that had used all her reiatsu to use Bankai twice when it was meant to be used only once, who nearly passed out from exhaustion and had to fight the pain from losing her arm. Her reiatsu surprised Yoruichi, who's the head of a Noble House, who are all born with naturally high reiatsu.

Originally Posted by Cyrs

ourichi could beat her without using any weapon.

Except that she totally couldn't. Soifon out speed her, outmaneuver her and outclassed her in combat. And her Shikai is just an extension of her finger, so she must be able to touch her target with her hand in order to sting. Also, Yoruichi had knives and other ninja weapons, and none of them worked. The only reason Soifon lost was because she had just acquired Shunko that same morning while Yoruichi had known in for over a century.

Originally Posted by Cyrs

She's a very new and inexperienced captain.

This is even more wrong. As a little girl she was so distinguished that she was fighting alongside Yoruichi, and now she's the head of a very organized assassination squad that she's been leading for over a century.

Originally Posted by Cyrs

Komamura's also a fairly new captain. And Tousen, who was also a new captain, was easily able to destroy his bankai without even going bankai himself, or using hollow powers.

Incorrect. He had to Hollowfy to do any considerable damage to Komamura's Bankai. And "he's a new captain" is irrelevant, as he had mastered his Bankai by the time of TBtP, and was also superior to Grimmjow, and could keep the Espada on their place.

Originally Posted by Cyrs

Aizen took him out with a weak, unchanted Kido spell - which isn't totally fair, since it's Aizen

A "weak" Kido spell? You're talking about a level 90 spell cast by AIZEN, which was as big as the Soukyoku hill despite being just a third of its full power. And he just stood up without much trouble. He also had his chest crushed and torso cut twice before falling, something none of the other captains did.

Originally Posted by Cyrs

So yeah, both of them are strong, since they are captains in the Gotei 13. But when you compare them with the top fighters in all of Bleach, they are weak as hell.

If by weak you mean "strong by underrated because of their battle record (against the most haxed villains)" then yes.

Re: Is Yamamoto Weaker than the Royal Guards?

^ Actually, the supporting evidence is... the events of the manga.

There's nothing to indicate that the 2 of them are among the strongest captains. And their battle records indicate they are among the weaker of the captains. Are they simply weak? No, they are captain-class. Are they among the strongest fighters in Bleach? Hell no.

There are other things too, like Soifon didn't just develop Shunko that morning, Yourichi was so far above Soifon in skill that she could exactly match her movements and reatsu to cancel the technique, Tousen could damage Komamura's bankai before hollowifying, etc. etc.

I'll stop discussing this here, as this is really off-topic. :-/Moved to different thread.

Re: Is Yamamoto Weaker than the Royal Guards?

I don't think Soifon or Komamura are weak. At least when fighting Kenpachi, it seemed Komamura was stronger than Tousen. What happened after Tousen undergone Aizen's experiments is another story. And Yourichi is quite a monster, fighting along with Urahara and Isshin against Aizen, so it's not a shame that Soifon lost to her.

Yourichi was so far above Soifon in skill that she could exactly match her movements and reatsu to cancel the technique

No. Yoruichi was losing all she could do to save her own life was run away and sacrifice parts of her body to block an area that had bed stung already. The only thing Yoruichi was better at than Soifon was Shunko, which Soifon didn't even release properly.

Originally Posted by Cyrs

Tousen could damage Komamura's bankai before hollowifying, etc. etc.

"etc. etc" when there's a single example, and that's Tousen cutting Komamura's Bankai AFTER Hollowfying.

So no, your so called "evidence" doesn't exist.

Originally Posted by Cyrs

I'll stop discussing this here, as this is really off-topic. :-/

It's not off topic. If somebody moves so fast that not even Soifon can react in time, then that person means business.

Re: Is Yamamoto Weaker than the Royal Guards?

^ No. Every fight in the manga involving Soifon and Komamura indicate they are not among the top-tier captains. You keep appealing to things like "bad match-ups" and the like, and demanding specific evidence to disprove your totally unsupported claim of their superior strengths. It's like if I said Chad is actually not one of the weaker characters, he's just had bad match-ups, or he was injured so Nnoitora could take him out, or whatever. When you have to repeatedly make excuses for why a character lost, time and time again, your argument loses credibility.

Obviously, they are strong fighters, they are captain-class. But by the events of the manga itself they are not among the strongest fighters. You can make up all sorts of reasons why you think they are really strong and underrated. But the burden of proof is on you to provide clear, incontrovertible evidence in favor of it. Because as it stands, the manga does not back up your viewpoint.

For example, Soifon's ability doesn't work on someone with high-level reiatsu. Yourichi went easy on her during their fight. Tousen actually got weaker after hollowifying, that's what Hisagi said.

Anyway, you're certainly entitled to your opinion, but if you want to discuss this any further, you should start a thread about it. This is my last post about it here.Moved to different thread.

Re: Is Yamamoto Weaker than the Royal Guards?

^ No. Every fight in the manga involving Soifon and Komamura indicate they are not among the top-tier captains.

So fighting against Aizen and losing means they are weak. Alright. But then it means everybody else is weak, because they also lost against him.

Originally Posted by Cyrs

You keep appealing to things like "bad match-ups" and the like, and demanding specific evidence to disprove your totally unsupported claim of their superior strengths.

I've given my evidence, you haven't. And no, it can barely be qualified as appealing when it's downright stated that the pairings are unfair. Are you forgetting how Barragan could stop or speed time around him, and how when Soifon got behind and kicked at his head her foot stopped in midair, and Barragan just grabbed and tossed her? It has everything to do in deciding the results. It's not an excuse, it's indisputable facts.

Originally Posted by Cyrs

It's like if I said Chad is actually not one of the weaker characters, he's just had bad match-ups, or he was injured so Nnoitora could take him out, or whatever. When you have to repeatedly make excuses for why a character lost, time and time again, your argument loses credibility.

And then you bring one of the worst possible examples to try and make a point. Chad is strong enough to fight against Renji's Bankai. In his case the reason he lost is because he was weaker than Shunsui and Nnoitra. It's a 180 degree turn from what I'm talking about. You talk about credibility yet you have none.

Originally Posted by Cyrs

But by the events of the manga itself they are not among the strongest fighters. You can make up all sorts of reasons why you think they are really strong and underrated. But the burden of proof is on you to provide clear, incontrovertible evidence in favor of it. Because as it stands, the manga does not back up your viewpoint.

You have some required reading to do. I have given my evidence. And I shouldn't have. The claim that Soifon is not one of the fastest should have been the one with the burden of proof, to which there is none because it's been shown time and time again that she's one of the fastest.

Originally Posted by Cyrs

For example, Soifon's ability doesn't work on someone with high-level reiatsu.

You are so confident about it despite it being Aizen whom we're talking about.

Originally Posted by Cyrs

Yourichi went easy on her during their fight.

So you are telling me that she allowed Soifon to cut her multiple times with a deadly weapon? I don't think so. It's clear that she was losing the fight against Soifon. Actually, Soifon was going easy on her, as she wanted to humiliate Yoruichi. It's right there. Read the chapter.

Hisagi said that Tousen didn't actually get stronger from hollowifying - he got some more physical strength but became careless enough to get taken out by a simple attack from Hisagi. Overall, he got weaker - weak enough to be felled by a Vice Captain.

You're not listening, you're misinterpreting what I'm saying, and you're not making any clear point. What are you trying to say about Soi Fon and Komamura? Where do you think they rank among the captains? Soi Fon is a fast character? Okay, and?

When characters lose, lose, and keep losing, sure it is more understandable that they are losing to strong characters. But obviously they aren't as strong. And there's a really large gap in strength. Did I say they are weak? No, you keep misunderstanding what I say. And you keep putting forth your opinion as manga fact, like when the manga itself says Yourichi was going easy on Soi Fon (end of their battle).

---

I don't see much point in continuing this, since it stopped being civil. You win, Komamura and Soi Fon are the 2 strongest captains. What was I thinking.

Re: Is Yamamoto Weaker than the Royal Guards?

Originally Posted by Cyrs

Hisagi said that Tousen didn't actually get stronger from hollowifying - he got some more physical strength but became careless enough to get taken out by a simple attack from Hisagi. Overall, he got weaker - weak enough to be felled by a Vice Captain.

He became more powerful, so he got weaker? No. He simply wasn't paying attention. Which is already irrelevant because your claim was that he could cut Komamura's Bankai without Hollowfying, which I proved wrong.

Originally Posted by Cyrs

You're not listening, you're misinterpreting what I'm saying, and you're not making any clear point. What are you trying to say about Soi Fon and Komamura? Where do you think they rank among the captains? Soi Fon is a fast character? Okay, and?

"Okay, and?" And what? Didn't you read the chapter? Did you read this thread? Unohana's mentor moved so fast that not even Soifon could catch his movement. And wanna know why it was Soifon of all people? Because she's one of the fastest. That's why it had to be her who would question their authority. Komamura only came into discussion because people (you) think he's weak because he loses all the time.

Originally Posted by Cyrs

When characters lose, lose, and keep losing, sure it is more understandable that they are losing to strong characters. But obviously they aren't as strong. And there's a really large gap in strength.

You sure know a lot based on a one sided fight, do you?

Originally Posted by Cyrs

And you keep putting forth your opinion as manga fact, like when the manga itself says Yourichi was going easy on Soi Fon (end of their battle).

Yoruichi went easy once she used Shunko. Before that she was losing the hand to hand fight.

Originally Posted by Cyrs

I don't see much point in continuing this, since it stopped being civil. You win, Komamura and Soi Fon are the 2 strongest captains. What was I thinking

Re: Is Yamamoto Weaker than the Royal Guards?

I don't know how to state my opinion this debate.
Here are as much as I know.

If not giving your best to kill off someone is going easy on that person, both Yoruichi and Soifon went easy on each other.
For Soifon, it was just a way to prove her superiority to her former master, the person she got abandoned by. She would rather defeat her and let her be than go for the kill.
For Yoruichi, it was more of a reunion.
If your resolve wavers even that slightly, things change drastically.
But going easy on someone shouldn't be interpreted as letting that person have his or her own way and it wasn't the case for either character.
And about her reiatsu..
Well, Ichigo had twice the reiatsu of a regular captain and was hopeless against pre-Hogyoku Aizen, so, it's not that Soifon possesses below average reiatsu. It's just that Aizen is too strong.

Well, I can't clearly tell where Komamura would rank, but Kurohitsugi isn't a weak spell. Aizen was able to produce the third of its full power without incantation, sure, but you cannot call a 90 Hado weak from any perspective.
It's not as flashy as Hado 88 Tessai uses, but that barely changes this fact.
Despite his hax bankai, Tousen was always a lower echelon captain in terms of strength. I suppose he'd be unable to defeat Komamura without hollowfication, but this is just a presumption based on Komamura's durability over time.

And one last thing.
Matchups indeed play a role. Byakuya and Kenpachi, defeated Zommari and Nnoitra in HM. Now, if the matchups were to be transposed, they'd be in for a real trouble. In fact, with his abnormal release, Zommari was definitely going to be a tough opponent for anyone that specializes in close combat. Oh, actually, it doesn't have to be close combat, but moving your limbs.
Zommari had his worst possible opponent in front of him.
Now, if Soifon and Kyouraku switched..
Soifon would lose, because she has no way of coming close enough to released Starkk and attack him, and you cannot dodge forever. That may hold true without the release, as Starkk is proven to be very proficient with Sonido.
But I seriously doubt Kyouraku would fare any better against Barragan. Soifon's Bankai didn't do any harm to him and we cannot say it's weak, because it created a huge explosion. Granted, we don't know about Kyouraku's Bankai, but it's clear to me that he'd prefer to fight Starkk if he knew about Barragan's power.
All in all, I'm not drawing a comparison between a senior captain and relatively very young Soifon, but I just used their respective fights as instances.

Re: Is Yamamoto Weaker than the Royal Guards?

Originally Posted by Torran

The reason it was Soifon who questioned the Royal Guard was to show their level of power, and she was the fastest person present aside from the RG. Just like "Broken Bankai can never be fixed" was also a plot device to show how far beyond the RG is.

Really? I think you can't. Aside from the Royal Guard, I can only name four characters that are that fast:

And when it comes to who is faster, then Yoruichi is out of the question, and so is Aizen, and consequently Yamamoto., therefore any of the other captains. So unless you count the Royal Guard, I don't your list will even reach five.

Soifon is neither slow or weak in any way, and she's never shown to lack skill either. But I guess she suffers from the Komamura syndrome that she's believed to be weak by the readers only because she has lost all her battles.

That wasn't the only reason the speed feat was displayed nor was it the most important. It was displayed to show Soifon's maturity lvl as a captain & more importantly, it was used confirm to the fans (finally) why the zero squads sit back & watched when SS gets trashed.

Anyway regarding what I said.

Soifon is an assasin, therefore she is specifically specialized in many arts that compliments her being an assasin.
The fundamental yet the most vital skills which is required of her as an assasin is high lvl Speed, Reaction & Distraction. She's got all these but nontheless there are many characters faster than her. Just because many characters are indeed faster than her, doesn't connote that they are better skilled nor does it connote they can do Soifon's job better than her.

There are many factors to be considered in the subject of what makes a good assasin. The most prominent of these factors is control.
How well Soifon make use of her speed, reaction & distraction in battle is what makes her dangerious. It's not just the speed.
So far we know she is highly developed in these skills & she makes use of them as effectively & as efficiently as possible.

I said she makes use of her very specific skills didn't I? One of these skills is the ability to make clones of herself to distract her opponent in order for her to deliver a very specific strike. I consider Soifon the Zommari of the gotei 13. Zommari is not the fastest espada but he makes use his sonido in a very special & dangerous way.

Now, pertaining to what I said before about her not being close to the fastest & about her being unable to probably react to 5 characters because they could probably do what Unohana's master did to her this chapter & also about what I said about 20 characters being faster than her.
Everything I said there, I wholeheartly meant it without a doubt.

The characters I believe are able to do what Unohana's master did this chapter are: Aizen, Ichigo, Isshin, Juha Bach & Ryuken & maybe Yoruichi

The 20 characters that I believe are faster than her are:
Yama, Aizen, Isshin, Ichigo, yoruichi, (possibly) shunsui, Ulquiorra, Stark, Juha Bach, Ryuken, Haschwald, all 5 members of the royal guard , Uryu (with his final form enhancement), Fake Bach, & the sternritter than suprised Shunsui. I sure many many many more characters are faster & I'm sure there are more will be revealed later on as the story progresses.

Also I don't understand the hype around her on speed during the SS arc against Yoruichi & Aizen.
Yoruichi for one admitted she was so out of it (rusty) that she wouldn't stand a chance against Byakuya in a fight. That's a very big thing to say considering who she is.
Also I don't understand the hype around her for being able to "catch" Aizen who didn't even care. Should I assume Hisagi & Rangiku are faster than Tosen & Gin because they were 'caught' too? No that makes no sense especially now that we know what Aizen is capable of.

Re: Ranking of Captains

Komamura has always had rough treatment in the manga however there is the consideration that he has always fought aizen. Obviously he wouldn't be close to matching aizen however he has never had a fight we have seen against a standard enemy so to speak.

Soifon is almost without a doubt the fastest captain out there. Her only opponents have been gigio to whom she gave the fodder treatment, barragan who was god damned segunda espada and aizen, who puts god damned segunda and the combined power of 8 captains to shame before spitting on it. There is hardly much to go on here. She did fight a quincy however without bankai she is naturally going to have trouble with blutz. We also don't know exactly which characters are faster than her for that matter. The only one that might be faster would be shunsui and even that is somewhat doubtfull. Yoruichi has perhaps regained her form by now. Its plainly not fair to compare her to aizen or yamamoto or the royals (who seem to be in the thousands of years old in comparison to soifon's couple hundred).