So I wander over to mudconnector - and can't find a link to their forums. I checked the "what's new" page, and it turns out "something" has happened over the last couple of days, that prompted Icculus to shut them down and step down as webmaster for the site. He's looking for a replacement.

I don't know what that "something" was, that caused him to shut down the forums, because I hadn't been there to read them in a couple of weeks. Without starting the same whatever it was here - is there anyone who can summarize what the stir was about? The only thing I can even think of, was Icculus chose to put up a banner ad for a Christian website, and that site wasn't a mud, or mud related, and it created a pretty big debate. But as I said, that was a couple of weeks ago - and Iccy shut the forums down just yesterday referencing something that happened only in the last few days.

From watching the threads the last few weeks, it seems people got all fired up that Andy wanted to put a Jesus link on his own website. Considering it his site, and he's devoted 16+ years to mud gaming... if he wants one? Um, cool. Like/dislike/ignore who cares.

Drizzt got all ****y and said basically that Iccy hadn't devoted as much because of # of posts by him vs other users. I personally lol at that, considering his contribution the muds has been endless...

The forums are still there btw, front page you see posts. Top of each page is a pull-down for each section in the forums etc.

Without starting the same whatever it was here - is there anyone who can summarize what the stir was about?

I didn't participate, religion and politics are two subjects I generally consider pointless to argue on a mud forum. But I kept an eye on the discussion. In summary:

A "Jesus died for us all" banner appeared in rotation. Drizzt queried why it was there (the implication being that someone had slipped it in, in violation of TMC rules). Icculus responded that it was his banner, and that he felt it was an important message people should see. Some posters supported his right to host the banner, others felt TMC wasn't the appropriate place for it.

A couple of the usual trolls then started insulting non-Christians, one of them because he always plays devil's advocate against certain posters, the other because he apparently has very strong religion views. He stated his belief that the world is 5000 years old, that people used to live alongside dinosaurs, etc, and said some very unflattering things about homosexuals that I won't repeat here. He was both very offensive towards others, and very defensive of his own beliefs.

Suffice to say things went downhill from there, particularly when another troll created an account specifically to provoke a few posters he disliked (he later bragged about managing to get several of them banned - I guess he'd been waiting a long time for the chance to pay them back).

Icculus deleted the thread, then restored it. Then TMC went down, then it came back without forums. Then the forums returned, but read-only. Apparently some people were very critical of the way he handled the situation, and now he's decided to leave the community and pass control of TMC to someone else.

People get waaaaaaay to uppity about what other people say on the internet.

Example:

Right:
A: "Jesus loves you all!"
B: "Thanks! Now on to another topic!"

Wrong:
A: "Jesus loves you all!"
B: "OMG! You're such an insensitive tool! What if some of us are atheist?"
C: "He can do what he wants!"
D: "Nooooo! Rulez apply to him 2! Noooooo!"
E: "i dont lik teh gayz! if u lik gayz u r 1!"

People get waaaaaaay to uppity about what other people say on the internet.

Example:

Right:
A: "Jesus loves you all!"
B: "Thanks! Now on to another topic!"

Wrong:
A: "Jesus loves you all!"
B: "OMG! You're such an insensitive tool! What if some of us are atheist?"
C: "He can do what he wants!"
D: "Nooooo! Rulez apply to him 2! Noooooo!"
E: "i dont lik teh gayz! if u lik gayz u r 1!"

Eh - not really. Because it was a banner ad (and still is) it shows up repetitively. For forum members who read and/or contribute regularly, this means that they see this several times per "session." So it's more like:

A. Jesus loves you all!
B. Thanks, on to next topic!
C. Okay great!
D. Jesus loves you all!
E. Uh - okay - thanks.
F. Great!
G. Jesus loves you all!
H. Yeah we heard you the first two times, I think that's enough, since this isn't even a forum or website about religion, it's a gaming website.
I. Jesus loves you all, and I don't care if you don't like it, you're stuck with it because I own the place!
J. Uh - I thought you're trying to send a message about love? How about a little love for your membership?
K. Screw the membership, Jesus loves you all!

Is the banner ad versus regular text really a worthwhile distinction to make, or are you just splitting hairs to play devil's advocate?

My point stands.

Right:

A: "Jesus loves you all!"
B: "I'm okay ignoring that banner ad and going on with my life independent of my personal viewpoint, for or against that particular religion, and would be okay and generally unaffected regardless of the specific form that message happened to take."

Wrong:

A: "Jesus loves you all!"
B: "OMG! Finally! An issue I can make a stink about to get attention because I totally love arguing on the internet!"

It is sad, but what I'd like to know is how the heck did he get that banner to even show up.

I ask because we advertised there before and our banners rarely if ever showed. I look around TMC and see tons of banners that show up on other pages in TMC that are completely defunct MUDs that haven't been active for 10 years.

I suggest you actually read the thread, because you seem to be under the false impression that the "stink" was caused by the people who criticised the banner.

The stink was caused by both sides. Initiated by one, but then perpetuated by the sea of idiots who can't help themselves. How hard is it to see a Christian message, not be a Christian, but just keep your mouth shut about it instead of questioning it, leading to a whole huge thread of zealots and atheists bickering at each other? Or sending a private message to the site owner to make sure this wasn't something someone slipped through the cracks?

The very impetus of that entire huge offensive thread was some guy who saw a Jesus message in a place he didn't think was appropriate to see one, and decided that because he wasn't Christian, he'd start a public forum thread about it. I'm not Christian either, and I'd have just ignored it, or if I were really suspicious that it might have been slipped in contrary to the site's rules, maybe I'd have sent a quick email or private message to the site owner. Though I probably wouldn't have bothered with that.

The very impetus of that entire huge offensive thread was some guy who saw a Jesus message in a place he didn't think was appropriate to see one, and decided that because he wasn't Christian, he'd start a public forum thread about it. I'm not Christian either, and I'd have just ignored it, or if I were really suspicious that it might have been slipped in contrary to the site's rules, maybe I'd have sent a quick email or private message to the site owner. Though I probably wouldn't have bothered with that.

The very impetus of that entire huge offensive thread was some guy who saw a Jesus message in a place he didn't think was appropriate to see one, and decided that because he wasn't Christian, he'd start a public forum thread about it.

Well let's take a look at what he actually wrote:

"Why is a banner for this site on the banner rotation?

It's not at all MUD related."

That's it - the entire first post. And it should be pointed out that by being non-mud related, the banner was technically in violation of TMC policy, so it's actually a pretty reasonable question to ask. Yes, he could have asked privately, but as Icculus used to have a very hands-off attitude towards TMC it wasn't at all uncommon to discuss such situations on the open forums.

The thread rapidly turned nasty, as such topics are wont to do, but the first post wasn't the impetus of the situation; even if Drizzt hadn't posted, it would only have been matter of time until someone else noticed the banner and decided to ask the same question. As unfortunate as the situation was, the outcome was inevitable: you can't put an off-topic banner on a discussion forum and expect people not to discuss it.

The thread rapidly turned nasty, as such topics are wont to do...the outcome was inevitable: you can't put an off-topic banner on a discussion forum and expect people not to discuss it.

I think I expect too much from humanity. It just seems to normal and logical to expect people to see something like that and say, "That's weird. Oh well. Ignore. Or if I'm really concerned, privately contact a responsible party." It seems equally normal and logical to expect people to hear/read something and say, "Yeah, I don't agree with that, but it doesn't really matter or affect me, so I'll just go on with my life."

Instead, we get all this, "Rawr! Arguing on the internet is important! Rawr! And this whole situation is the other side's fault!" It just doesn't compute to me. Who sees Jesus loves you on a website and makes a big deal about it, for or against? Who sees a comment about the Jesus banner and jumps in to respond to the comment, for or against? Who goes on for over ten pages because they just can't resist expressing their viewpoint in an aggressive manner because they enjoy being antagonistic behind the anonymous nature of the internet?

It just makes me really mad. It's like when you get jury duty or go to a public library or public park, and you go to take a crap, and the bathroom is the worst place you've ever seen, because the general public is just plain disgusting, and you'd forgotten how disgusting because it had been awhile since you really needed to go in a public place.