Tuesday, May 01, 2012

I estimate that only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, but with our own thread, we won’t detract from what the site is really about: Bryce Harper getting mooned by a Dodgers fan, how dumb interleague baseball is, or random spamming of Yankees/RedSox news that barely counts as news.

Reader Comments and Retorts

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Smith hurt his ankle - I don't know at what point. We're playing Willie Green, Ivan Johnson, and Kirk Hinrich at the same time in crunch time.
If Teague is easily your #2 player on the floor - you're in deep trouble.

Let's see...Sixers by 22...Flyers lost...STEAGLES should be here any minute.

let's see what happens when this series goes back to philadelphia and the sixers shoot less than 59% from the floor.

before this series started, i talked about the bulls having two advantages: offensive rebounding and 3 point shooting. on the glass, the sixers turned the bulls aggressiveness against them by leaking out after defensive rebounds and fastbreaking the other way. if the bulls make more shots in the 3rd quarter, it's a different game. if the bulls get a few extra offensive rebounds in the 3rd quarter, it's a different game. just because this was a key to victory in game 2, it doesn't mean that they will be able to repeat the performance in game 3.

and the 3 point line was a nonfactor in tonights game, but again, just because that was the case tonight, it doesn't mean that it will remain the case on friday.

let's see what happens on friday.

and, correct me if i'm mistaken, but 19, 7, and 6 assists is a fairly pippen-like stat line, is it not?

I like Josh Smith. Would love to see him running the floor with Rondo. The missed dunk was dumb (but also funny). I'm sure that stuff is frustrating when he's on your team, but he brings more to the table then he takes off of it (sort of like Rondo).

Sun headline on England naming Roy Hodgson national team manager. (Yup, Hodgson has a speech impediment.)

As a commentor on both the Soccer and NBA threads, I'm waiting for the day when those 2 posts merge together into a singularity that overrides this site.

Good game from the Lakers. Denver upped their intensity, Lawson was considerably better, but Lakers still found a way to win despite a worse defensive effort than Game 1. Bynum is just too much for Denver to handle at this point. Also, Manimal is quickly becoming my favorite non-Laker. Never thought that I would see a player again with Rodman's insane motor, without being slightly insane.

before this series started, i talked about the bulls having two advantages: offensive rebounding and 3 point shooting. on the glass, the sixers turned the bulls aggressiveness against them by leaking out after defensive rebounds and fastbreaking the other way. if the bulls make more shots in the 3rd quarter, it's a different game. if the bulls get a few extra offensive rebounds in the 3rd quarter, it's a different game. just because this was a key to victory in game 2, it doesn't mean that they will be able to repeat the performance in game 3.

At the end of the first half, the Sixers were shooting almost 55% and were down by 8. At the time, I felt like the Bulls were going to just pull away because there was no way the Sixers were going to keep shooting that well. They shot almost 65% in the 2nd half, so I was just wrong (and it took some heroic and unsustainable shooting by Noah and Lucas to have the Bulls up that big in the first place). Most of the shots were contested, but the defensive rotations by the Bulls were a step slow most of the night. And as you said, Deng and Brewer kept crashing the offensive boards and Philly kept getting 3 on 1 or 2 on 1 fast breaks. The Bulls played right into the Sixers defensive plan in the 3rd by settling for long 2 after long 2. A lot of that was a good job by Philly on the back cuts and screens, and some of that was Watson and Lucas overdribbling. Boozer was a total no-show, Iggy effectively shut down Deng, and Korver had one of his can't make a shot games. It's tough to win when the offense and defense both perform so poorly.

One thing that is for sure is that having Rose wouldn't have kept the Sixers from shooting that well, so the Bulls may have very well lost anyway were he healthy. Of course, the stories today are all about how they're missing Rose. Oh well.

Supposedly Chandler won DPOY. Good choice. Together with COY, I'd say the league is 2 for 2 on awards so far.

Yep, agreed.

This kind of performance from Turner and Holiday makes Collins burying Turner all year look really bad. For Jodie Meeks?

But you can still see how Turner and Iggy aren't great fits together. Iggy really took a back last seat last night, but that was because Turner was playing that well. He hasn't been nearly that consistent all year.

The current Celtics core is not necessarily the classiest of teams on the court, I won't deny that - Ray Allen, IMO, being the exception. I fully realize the 2007-12 Celtics are a team that mostly only a Celtics fan could love (or even like). I also wonder how important it is for a team to be "classy", though.

Yeah, you don't like him, I get it. That's like the 3,752nd most obnoxious thing an NBA player has done this year.

I'm with you on this one. Tebowing is pointless and stupid, but it's no worse than chest thumping or blowing on your fingers to "cool them down" when you're hot or that holstering your smoking guns thing that Dirk does after hitting big 3's or any number of other celebratory acts you see a half dozen times per game.

It's all obnoxious, but IMO none really stand out as being any worse than the others.

He's an extremely wealthy man's Grant Hill. Peak Hill (basically his Detroit career, before he wrecked his ankle) was LeBron minus 10 points and a couple assists per game.

My favorite player of that moment. I even had his (in retrospect, hideously ugly) team Pistons jersey with the horse on it. Averaged 22, 8, and 7 from 1995-2000 - I've always loved guys who fill the stat sheet like that.

Side question: What's the most random NBA jersey you've ever owned? One that you look back and go "why did I buy that?" For me, it would be Damon Stoudamire/Raptors or (gulp) Nick Van Exel/Lakers.

Yeah, you don't like him, I get it. That's like the 3,752nd most obnoxious thing an NBA player has done this year.

Name 3,750. Oh, I know I hate it more because it's him. But he did stop at center court to do it, which adds to the douche level. I think it's a step beyond the average celebrating, but I'm not really one of those "get off my lawn" types and don't mind most of it (and really wasn't trying to start this discussion). Considering how big of a douche I think Tebow is, copying him isn't exactly endearing (isn't also a bit played out, too?).

holstering your smoking guns thing

Paging Joakim Noah...

As much as I've grown to tolerate him, I *hate* that (well, I think it's a little funny, but in a I'm laughing at him sort of way). He made 4 jumpshots last night, so I think he did it 4 times. Yes, he does it after every made jump shot.

Oh, don't get me wrong - I like a lot of the jerks (and I'm not calling Pierce a jerk, per se. Maybe by game six.)

Tebowing has a measure of premeditation that, say, a fist pump doesn't. It's not a particularly egregious act, just a little egregious.

Who would you all call a "classy" team in the current NBA?

Speaking of Grant Hill...
I don't know - this is a good question. Nash comes to mind - I'm not sure if "class" is the right word to describe him, but he certainly has an aura of integrity and all that. Maybe Ray Allen at the two...

I own no NBA jerseys, though I did once lose out on an Ebay auction for a Larry Smith number (Mr. Mean!). Even when I played (rec and city league) ball, a jersey looked ridiculous on me - all small (6-0) and bad bodied, so wearing one for non-competitive reasons seems like a bad idea.

There's also a question as to the difference between on the court class and off the court. See e.g. Kirby Puckett. People way overrate the former and way underrate the latter. If you aren't trying to injure somebody on the court, or playing in a manner that would increase the chance of injury, I could give two shits what somebody does on the court. I cannot imagine playing at the level of these guys, or what it feels like to score a touchdown in the NFL, or hit a game winning shot, so I am not about to judge the way a player celebrates.

I cannot imagine playing at the level of these guys, or what it feels like to score a touchdown in the NFL, or hit a game winning shot, so I am not about to judge the way a player celebrates.

This reminds me...god, I hate the taunting rule. The Knicks have accrued at least 5 technicals this year off of post-dunk "celebrations" that are the furthest thing from the type of conduct I think the rule is in place to stop.

The current Celtics core is not necessarily the classiest of teams on the court, I won't deny that - Ray Allen, IMO, being the exception. I fully realize the 2007-12 Celtics are a team that mostly only a Celtics fan could love (or even like). I also wonder how important it is for a team to be "classy", though.

Who would you all call a "classy" team in the current NBA?

I should hate the Celtics, but my undying KG love carried over. Even made me like Pierce, who I never liked before, and Rondo, who I would otherwise probably hate. I'm not proud of it, but the heart wants what it wants.

The Pacers might qualify as a classy team.

Jerseys- my family was extremely cheap. I was always one degree away from getting the jersey that I actually wanted. I wanted Mutombo nuggets jersey, and got a Jalen Rose one for my birthday (ironically, I have grown to love his podcast, but didn't care about him at the time. I think I tried to convince my mom that the fab 5 were a gang so she should return it and get me the Mutombo one). I wanted an Alonzo Mourning Hornets jersey, and I got the hideous purple pinstripe one, not that the turquoise was much better, but it was the early 90s and that mattered. Later, I started collecting throwback jerseys, and the coolest one I ever got was the Maravich "pistol" hawks jersey.

I spend too much time marveling at the fact that Paul Pierce has played basketball at such a high level for such a long time without ever developing any muscular definition whatsoever to hate him for his antics.

The other thing worth pointing out about Pierce is that often as not he seems to be directing his taunting at the fans, rather than specific opposing players. Tebowing last night, bowing after hitting a game-winner at MSG, that sort of thing. His biggest jerk moves seem to be an extension of trash talking, where he's telling the whole crowd/audience "see, I'm just that awesome." I certainly get why it could be off-putting, even if you aren't rooting against him, but he's not hurting anyone or precipitating any fights. (I, of course, am completely on the homer side, and find it pretty hilarious. I am well aware that my feelings are typically far more mixed when other players do such things.)

There's also a question as to the difference between on the court class and off the court. See e.g. Kirby Puckett. People way overrate the former and way underrate the latter.

We can see the former; we usually can't see much of the latter. Pierce does annoying things on the court; so do a lot of other guys. Last year I ran a link to an article polling NBA players on the league's biggest on-court trashtalkers. Pierce and Garnett were both in the Top 5; so was Kobe Bryant.

As to the little discussion about Pierce here, once again: fans stick up for their guys. Always have, always will.

Yeah, you don't like him, I get it. That's like the 3,752nd most obnoxious thing an NBA player has done this year.

Pierce tends to enjoy doing those things, though. His tweets on how he only packed one change of clothes for a Game 6/7 situation, or hitting the game-winner in NY last year then taking a freaking victory lap around the court. Pierce isn't an evil guy, he just likes getting under people's skins. Unlike Lebron, for example, he clearly doesn't care about being liked by fans outside of Boston, so it shouldn't be surprising that he isn't.

One of the silliest acts of trash talking I've ever witnessed occurred in the last meeting between the Knicks and the Hawks this year. After a particularly thrilling dunk by Amar'e, ATL called timeout and Amar'e runs towards the Knicks bench while miming that he's hungry/eating. 3 more years.

The Lakers? We haven't beat up a girlfriend or excessively elbowed someone in the face in at least a few days.

I spend too much time marveling at the fact that Paul Pierce has played basketball at such a high level for such a long time without ever developing any muscular definition whatsoever to hate him for his antics.

That got me thinking. Of really good/great (non-short) NBA players, I can only think of Mark Aguirre and Pierce as the guys with bodies that I wouldn't pick in a pick-up game. There is no way that you aren't picking Corey Magette before both those guys if you don't know any better.

167/Booey: I initially took it to mean "name 5 classy dudes", as opposed to an existing team.

As for trash talking, I remember working hard to learn how to do it, that being part of the ballplaying culture of my neighborhood* but utterly foreign to me at the time. I tried, ummm, "negative talk" (talking down my skills, etc...). Suffice to say, as a (then) hyper-verbal kid, I figured it out**.
So, I have nooooo problem with talking - just don't do anything to hurt your team / overly provoke your opponent. Obviously, being a business/spectator enterprise complicates things.

* as I've mentioned before, I moved to a predominantly black neighborhood when I was 12 and need to find a way to fit in / not get beat up so much / not be a shut-in. I took up basketball accordingly - my interest was marginal before then.
** thankfully, I was accepted enough by then that people no longer wanted to punch me in the face. Or at least didn't act on it because of anything I was saying.

Paul Pierce is the enemy of a pick up game though. He relies on refs and obnoxious pump fakes that don't really matter when there are no free throws. As Kevin Garnett would say, he'd be a cancer to his team.

Paul Pierce is the enemy of a pick up game though. He relies on refs and obnoxious pump fakes that don't really matter when there are no free throws. As Kevin Garnett would say, he'd be a cancer to his team.

Actually, his right elbow repertoire has proven quite useful for my pickup career.

I think that its clearly Nash over Rondo. You want Allen just for the sheer fun of watching him just piss off whoever he's guarding. Also, Allen means more shots for me. And I'm sorry, I respect Duncan but I don't want him on my pick-up team. I think that it would be way more fun having a Javale McGee or DeAndre Jordan type, as the goal-tending rules are a bit less rigid, obviously.

That got me thinking. Of really good/great (non-short) NBA players, I can only think of Mark Aguirre and Pierce as the guys with bodies that I wouldn't pick in a pick-up game.

Maybe Barkley?

Paul Pierce is the enemy of a pick up game though. He relies on refs and obnoxious pump fakes that don't really matter when there are no free throws. As Kevin Garnett would say, he'd be a cancer to his team.

There's actually a lot of stars that would be much less effective in a game that didn't feature free throws. The ability to draw fouls is a key weapon in most great players arsenals.

When Nick Young was traded to Los Angeles in March he asked to wear No. 0, homage to his long-time friend and mentor, Gilbert Arenas. No bleeping way, the Clippers told him. The past is the past; it's time to turn the page.

There's actually a lot of stars that would be much less effective in a game that didn't feature free throws. The ability to draw fouls is a key weapon in most great players arsenals.

I think this is sort of backwards. Those players rely on foul calls because foul calls are part of the game. Pierce grew up playing pickup in LA, and, as NJ points out, his old man spacing-and-footwork game would work really well there. Take away whistles, and players would move away from the moves they use to get those calls. I don't think you can say they'd be less effective, just differently effective. If they play the way they do because they adapt to their playing environment, can you assume they wouldn't adapt their game again?

I agree with Fourth. Guys who actively look for paint contact on a drive (think Kobe or Wade) would be devastating in a pickup game because if there's no danger of a block call around, they'll just go right through you, use their bodies to ward off defenders. You'd never be able to stop those guys.

I agree with Fourth. Guys who actively look for paint contact on a drive (think Kobe or Wade) would be devastating in a pickup game because if there's no danger of a block call around, they'll just go right through you, use their bodies to ward off defenders. You'd never be able to stop those guys.

I don't know. I used to play pick up games all the time, and when you just take the ball out of bounds after a foul, the guys who liked to drive the lane - the type of players who would normally be shooting lots of free throws in the NBA - would just get hacked on almost every drive, to the point where they'd get sick of it and just stop trying.

I guess it depends on the skill level of the guy. If a guy is quick enough to get even a half-step on you, if they're allowed to use their shoulder then the only way to stop him would be to tackle him. You do that a few times, people tend to get really fight-y because nobody wants to change their game when they know they have an advantage.

(Speaking of not changing games, I once played against a guy who insisted on sagging shorts during games. He would literally have to pull his pants up with one hand while dribbling with the other, and he refused to change his game.)

I guess it depends on the skill level of the guy. If a guy is quick enough to get even a half-step on you, if they're allowed to use their shoulder then the only way to stop him would be to tackle him

Not necessarily. A simple smack on the forearm or a bump in the lane can often cause these players to miss their shots without leading to a really "fight-y" attitude (until you start doing it on every possession).

But I guess that would be true of any style of play that the defense has trouble stopping. I used to have some pretty good post up moves before my knees went to hell, and whenever I'd get 3 or 4 baskets in a row in the post, the other teams would either A) switch a taller player to defend me, or if that would create other match-up disadvantages, B) Just start fouling me every time.

I spend too much time marveling at the fact that Paul Pierce has played basketball at such a high level for such a long time without ever developing any muscular definition whatsoever to hate him for his antics.

A simple smack on the forearm or a bump in the lane can often cause these players to miss their shots without leading to a really "fight-y" attitude (until you start doing it on every possession).

I think that's the key. You bump him, he bumps you, it's all good. If you have to foul someone on every single play, though, then the rest of the court is going to know that you can't stop that guy, and at some point someone is going to make you pay for all the punishment you're doling out. I guess that's the fine line between physical defense and being physical in place of defense.

I'm really shocked by this. Who picks based on body type? I don't know how many times I've been crushed by some fat guy, or short guy, or out-of-shape seeming guy who can just play hella basketball.

I think the assumption is you are walking into a court of strangers. You don't know what their skill level is, so you try and pick the guys who look to be the best combinations of tall, strong, fit, and quick.

Another assumption has to be you are picking from NBA players, so you'd pick a lot of fit-looking scrubs before you pick Paul Pierce. Put Pierce in an actual pickup game situation, and even if you don't know who he is he probably gets picked first. Because he's probably the only 6'7 dude at your gym, flabby arms or not.

Tebowing has a measure of premeditation that, say, a fist pump doesn't.

It does?

I'd say it requires slightly more premeditation that Faith Hilling but certainly less than Taylor Swifting.

This reminds me...god, I hate the taunting rule. The Knicks have accrued at least 5 technicals this year off of post-dunk "celebrations" that are the furthest thing from the type of conduct I think the rule is in place to stop.

I wasn't sure whether to laugh or cry at the juxtaposition of Chandler getting a technical for a post-dunk scream followed by Wade going out of his way to throw Bibby's shoe to keep him out of the play with no ref reaction whatsoever.

Who throws a shoe? Honestly!

Which of those acts is truly more unsportsmanlike?

(I apologize for the excessive pop culture references and therefore overly-Simmonsian nature of this post.)

I think the assumption is you are walking into a court of strangers. You don't know what their skill level is, so you try and pick the guys who look to be the best combinations of tall, strong, fit, and quick.

Yeah, I just question that assumption. I've never thought of bball players that way. Look at the goddawful body on Durant. He's built like Louis Orr. I just picked by, or saw other guys pick by play and swagger.

Yeah, I just question that assumption. I've never thought of bball players that way. Look at the goddawful body on Durant. He's built like Louis Orr. I just picked by, or saw other guys pick by play and swagger.

You wouldn't have seen them play in this scenario. They are strangers. And if I'm picking random strangers to play pickup I'd pick someone with Durant's body type way before Pierce.