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ananyo (2519492) writes "The U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has recalled homeopathic remedies made by a company called Terra-Medica because they may contain actual medicine — possibly penicillin or derivatives of the antibiotic." Diluted enough times with pure water, though, maybe these traces would be even more powerful.

Within the insane homeopathic industry, that's correct. However, penicillin isn't always a helpful ingredient to everyone. Some are deathly allergic. So for those people it would "help" according to people who lack any cognitive function measurable by modern science.

A toxin is bad for you. Therefore, less of the toxin is better for you. Even less of it is even better. Therefore by induction, diluting it down until it no longer exists should be amazingly good for you!

But basically this theory came about at the time when medicine science was already very bad. Thus a bogus theory by a charlatan was not much different from the state of the art in medicine, and probably better for you than leeches or being treated by doctors who didn't wash their hands. The only odd th

Except that the sarcasm gets it wrong. The idea of homeopathy (as its name indicates) is to cause the body to fight against the effects of the diluted substances. So diluted penicillin would make the body fight antibiotics rather than bacterial infections.

If you believe in homeopathy, traces of antibiotics are a really bad idea to have in homeopathic medication. And if you don't believe in homeopathy, there is no point in buying the medication in the first place.

So yes, it makes complete sense to withdraw the medication that is contaminated with penicilline. Depending on the dosage, it can actually be dangerous or counterproductive to people with penicilline allergies. But even if we are talking about homeopathic traces, you don't want them in there if homeopathy is supposed to make sense.

For a long time allergists and allergy desensitization treatments were disparaged by much of the medical community because of the procredure's similarity to Homeopathic treatments and theory.

Does it cause Autism?

Nope.

Neither, apparently, does vaccination. If I recall correctly: The research claiming to show that was sponsored by trial lawyers, many attempts were made to replicate it but they all failed, the journal which published it (and, eventually, even the d

The research claiming to show that was sponsored by trial lawyers, many attempts were made to replicate it but they all failed,

Worse than that, it was shown that Wakefield (the fraud who did the bogus study) selected the children in the study because they were already showing the symptoms he was looking to blame on vaccination, then gave them vaccines, blamed their symptoms on the vaccines, and gave them painful, unnecessary tests to "prove" how harmful the vaccination was. This was all so that he could (after being paid to do so) discredit vaccines in order to promote a snake-oil "alternative" immunization method, which was also shown to be completely useless. And of course, blind to the irony, the anti-vaccine movement quite often claims vaccines are there only because the doctors are being paid off, and you should "follow the money" to see proof. (which they never actually do...)

the journal which published it (and, eventually, even the doctor who performed it) withdrew it.

Well, the journal withdrew it, yes. Wakefield didn't though, instead he himself was withdrawn, and had his medical license taken away as a result of his unethical behavior.

Except that the sarcasm gets it wrong. The idea of homeopathy (as its name indicates) is to cause the body to fight against the effects of the diluted substances.

It just occurred to me that this is actually kind of how vaccines work. Of course a homeopath would likely just give you a shot of diluted live virulent Ebola (lots of fun if you get some active ingredient!)

If you believe in homeopathy, traces of antibiotics are a really bad idea

Traces of antibodies are a really bad idea, period. Exposing bacteria to something that doesn't kill them teaches them to become resistant.

This stuff isn't at a high enough concentration to alter the population dynamics of any bacteria in the gut (the most likely target, there should be few bacteria anywhere else but on the skin). But the concern it the dosage would be high enough to trigger an anaphylactoid response as that system comes with a nice group of biological amplifiers as standard equipment.

This stuff isn't at a high enough concentration to alter the population dynamics of any bacteria in the gut (the most likely target, there should be few bacteria anywhere else but on the skin). But the concern it the dosage would be high enough to trigger an anaphylactoid response as that system comes with a nice group of biological amplifiers as standard equipment.

Homeopathic concentrations are so dilute that the odds are you won't get a *single molecule* of whatever the active ingredient was supposed to b

How come the homeopathic practitioners don't just row out into the sea and throw their goose livers in there? They could cure all diseases overnight. They must be mean capitalists if they're not doing things like that.

How come the homeopathic practitioners don't just row out into the sea and throw their goose livers in there? They could cure all diseases overnight. They must be mean capitalists if they're not doing things like that.

Where's the little glass bottles? Where's the shaking? Where's the successive titrations? You're not applying the true principles here, just a ludicrous caricature! That's why what you propse won't work. Not because it's a fundamentally incorrect Victorian era disease hypothesis.

How come the homeopathic practitioners don't just row out into the sea and throw their goose livers in there? They could cure all diseases overnight. They must be mean capitalists if they're not doing things like that.

Simple reason. It won't be diluted enough and thus not very potent. I mean you can't get that 1 part in 1.0x10^200 dilution by dumping a goose liver, and even if you could how would you manage to do that magic shake on an ocean full of water at once. Probably at best they could only manage a 1 part in 1.0x10^20 to 1 part in 1.0x10^30, which wouldn't be any where near strong enough, using that method.

Shouldn't sea water be considered a wonder drug in homeopathy, because everything eventually makes its way into the ocean and gets ultra-diluted.

No. A homeopathic remedy is typically diluted by a factor of one hundred, one hundred times. So one liter of original substance would be diluted by 1e200. All the world's oceans contain about 1.35e9 cubic km, or 1.35e21 liters. So diluting with the ocean would be shy by 179 orders of magnitude.

You know, if you want to go down that road we should examine the number of atoms in the universe (~1e80) and determine that a 1e200 solution needs to tap the multiverse for another 1e120 universes to dilute down to an effective mixture. See, physics just hasn't caught up to homeopathy yet, but the cure to all our ills is just a multiverse away!

If they aren't diluted, they aren't homeopathic. Holistic, maybe.Why don't you simply google for homeopathic medicals and check yourself? Oscillococcinum, one of the most common of these quack remedies, typically comes in 200C dilution. A C dilution is a 1/100th dilution, so 200C is 1/(100^200) dilution rate. Then it is not a "homeopathic" medical but nonsense.

Oscillococcinum, one of the most common of these quack remedies, typically comes in 200C dilution. A C dilution is a 1/100th dilution, so 200C is 1/(100^200) dilution rate.
Then it is not a "homeopathic" medical but nonsense.

Wait... are you suggesting that some of this bullshit actually isn't complete nonsense?

I'm well aware of the theoretical basis of homeopathic medicine, but even so I already refreshed my memory with google and a few sites both supporting and debunking it. I even included a link to wikipedia in my original. If you want to dispute my claim, provide a citation and not a "google it yourself" response.

Homeopathy is based on the idea that a substance that causes the symptoms in normal quantities cures the symptoms in smaller quantities. Hence the dilution.

Oscillococcinum, one of the most common of these quack remedies, typically comes in 200C dilution. A C dilution is a 1/100th dilution, so 200C is 1/(100^200) dilution rate.

Then it is not a "homeopathic" medical but nonsense.

Quite a lot of homeopathic products use the C dilutions, in surprisingly high numbers. Of course, there are also a number of products that use small numbers of X (1/10th) dilutions as well. The 3X-6X dilutions do result in a product that contains the active ingredient. Of course, if I started with a 1g sample of a drug, say, tacrolimus, and performed a 3X dilution on it, I'd end up with a 1mg product. This isn't homeopathy, because that is well with in the dose-response curve for that drug and the drug at that level produces a direct and specific response in line with its properties.

Oscillococcinum, one of the most common of these quack remedies, typically comes in 200C dilution. A C dilution is a 1/100th dilution, so 200C is 1/(100^200) dilution rate.

Of course, there are also a number of products that use small numbers of X (1/10th) dilutions as well. The 3X-6X dilutions do result in a product that contains the active ingredient.

Funny example: Recently a (real;-) doctor recommended a particular plant extract to my wife, to treat a minor skin condition that caused major itching and reddening. She found it at Whole Foods, and I noticed that it was labelled as "homeopathic", with a 1X dilution. So it was actually 10% the active ingredient.

It actually worked quite well; the problem disappeared in a few days and hasn't recurred. Checking online showed that it's one of many "natural" ingredients that can be sole OTC, as long as no specific medical claims are made.

So we might ask why they labelled it "homeopathic" when it has such a high fraction of active ingredient. Our guess is "marketing": The company that packages it wants to sell to the not-insignificant fraction of the population that believes in homeopathic cures. The doctors probably just grin, knowing that it's meaningless, but also knowing that a good number of traditional "folk" remedies are actually useful, as long as the problem is minor and precisely-measured medicine isn't required.

Actually, years ago I was diagnosed with chronic "dry skin" by a doctor, who recommended olive oil. He did explain that it really isn't a medicine at all; it just slows down evaporation and lets the skin retain more of the water it gets from deeper tissues. It worked well enough that he said real medication wasn't needed. I've used it off and on ever since, mostly in winter when indoor air is typically very dry, and it works quite well. I wonder if such plant oils are ever labelled "homeopathic", perhaps at a 0X "dilution factor".;-)

(That doctor also joked about it being a medicine he learned from his Italian grandmother.)

We have hairless dogs, and their skin gets quite dry in winter. Their ears can even crack, and one of them has a notched ear from it. Most of the time baby oil is enough, but we have to reapply every few days. Olive oil will last for a week or two, but I have to put it on them and then take them for a long walk to let it penetrate fully or it gets rubbed off on the furniture and bed clothes. When we go on vacation we slather them with Udder Butter, a cream dairy farmers use on chapped cattle teats. Gre

So we might ask why they labelled it "homeopathic" when it has such a high fraction of active ingredient. Our guess is "marketing": The company that packages it wants to sell to the not-insignificant fraction of the population that believes in homeopathic cures. The doctors probably just grin, knowing that it's meaningless, but also knowing that a good number of traditional "folk" remedies are actually useful, as long as the problem is minor and precisely-measured medicine isn't required.

A "medicine" marked "homeopathic" is technically regulated by the FDA, but isn't tested for safety or effectiveness.

It's about damn time something was done to fix this homeopathic mess. Read the Wikipedia article on Homeopathy [wikipedia.org] for a moment. The thing that struck me about it is not the "diluting makes it stronger" part. Everybody knows that. What struck me is that "homeopathic remedies" are basically always prescription-only.

Why do we allow non-prescription drugs to bypass FDA inspection because they are labelled "homeopathic"? I mean, truly homeopathic drugs should not be any cause for concern, but then they should also only be taken by prescription. What we have instead is a menagerie of sham drugs claiming to be "homeopathic" to avoid drug testing. Nothing 1x or 2x diluted should ever seriously be sold as "homeopathic".

It's about damn time to get rid of the special treatment altogether. Slapping a "homeopathic" label on a drug must not be enough to excuse it from proper testing. I could understand it it was diluted 10x, but then that only applies to the "active ingredient". What we have here is a drug with an "inactive ingredient" that happens to be penicillin (whether it was intentionally added or not - and excuse me, but what part of diluting a homeopathic drug involves "fermentation"?).

Alternative medicine is one thing, but it's something else if the producers themselves mix the product with real medicine because they think it is actually snake oil.

Homeopathic remedies are not 'prescription', if by that you mean an approval from a licensed Medical Doctor, Doctor of Osteopathy, Doctor of Medical Dentistry or Doctor of Veterinary Medicine (and some other practitioners depending on the state*.

Homeopathic remedies are approved by the FDA because some Congresscritter decided it was a good idea for the FDA to follow the manufacturing practices of these 'pharmacies'. And that is exactly what the FDA did. They found that the level of manufacturing quality w

In your dream world you'd involve two huge government bureaucracies when one accomplished the recall without the other? I can see handing off from one to the other if they were still causing the problem and the first agency was unable to change the behavior. Maybe we should think a bit before pulling in all the coordination costs up front though when they may not be necessary.

This happens all the time, some quack alt "medicine" is recalled because it actually contains a known effective drug. Most often it is "herbal" dick pills that contain the active ingredient in traditional ED medications.

Getting on the "Recalls, Market Withdrawals and Safety Alerts for U.S. Food & Drug Administration (FDA)" email list can be very entertaining:

The fact that an inert placebo product is being contaminated by some random active pharmaceutical is funny, true, but contamination is contamination. A consumer product is contaminated with something it is not supposed to have; and low levels of antibiotic are actively harmful, not helpful. Since a safe product is rendered measurably unsafe, it is good that this was caught. Drug manufacturers regularly demonstrate that without monitoring and regulation bad products will enter the marketplace.

I think the article is making a slight mistake here. Yes, idiots make dilluted homeopathic bullshit with like 1 molecule of snake venom maybe on average or whatever. But technically Zicam is classified as homeopathic and that's scientifically proven in multiple lab tests to stop a cold by preventing viruses from attaching to cell walls. It actually contains zinc and says it contains zinc too. So technically "homeopathic" doesn't necessarily mean it's that 14th century alchemist watered down magic bullsh

You obviously didn't take basic human biology in high school:
The review updates a previous Cochrane Systematic Review, carried out in 1999, with data from several new trials. In total, data from 15 trials, involving 1,360 people, were included. According to the results, zinc syrup, lozenges or tablets taken within a day of the onset of cold symptoms reduce the severity and length of illness. At seven days, more of the patients who took zinc had cleared their symptoms compared to those who took placebos. Ch

I have just discovered a way to dilute the diluted water itself! Placing the homeopathic pure water solution into a crystal goblet near a west facing window during the week prior to and/or following the summer solstice will dilute the water with pure sunlight!

Soon one will notice that the water itself has been completely diluted and is filled with the radioactive echo of the quantum entangled liquid. Be warned: You must drink the entire cup of sunlight energy & air diluted liquid; Resist the urge to take a small sip or else the dosage dilution in your body will be so powerful you may overdose on the potent hot air.

DISCLAIMER: Consult a local fire station immediately at the first sign of smoke as it may blow up your ass!

What I find more confusing is that I know of at least two products labelled "homeopathic" that actually work because they contain real medicine at resonable concentrations ("2x HPUS", or even "1xHPUS"). ZICAM contains zinc glycine glucconate, which had been proven in double-blind clinical trials to reduce the severity and length of a common cold (and I can attest to this from personal experience), and Arnica gel, which contains a powerful anti-inflammatory extracted from a plant. Another product that I know from personal experience that actually works pretty damn well.

Can someone explain to me why the FDA thinks is OK to label real medicine "homeopathic"? And why would a company chose to label real medicine "homeopathic", when it's likely to put off people who know that homeopathy is bunk?

The big problem here is that they introduce a non-effective amount of antibiotics on a semi-large scale to a large flora of diseases.This is essentially a training camp for widespread antibiotic-resistance.

You mean like what happens at industrial CAFOs (Concentrated Animal Feeding Operations)? Ground water near such a facility could likely have all sorts of traces of such antibiotics, and could easily find its way into products made with that water.

Closer to densely populated cities, products made with ground water or reservoir water can have traces of all sorts of potent drugs, some with very long half lifes. Most unused medicine ends up in local landfills, and the rest tends to end up in waste water treat

Well, I would presume they tested some samples and found traces of penicillin. Now, based on those test results, do you think it'd be appropriate for them to publicly announce every bottle has traces of penicillin?

It's the same with food recalls and why they ask you to return these products; if you bought, say, chicken strips that were subsequently recalled due to possibility of listeria contamination (which just happened here in Canada), are you 100% guaranteed to have a bag of chicken listeria? Of course