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Re: Whats been the Pacers biggest contributor to a losing season so far?

no consistency, one day the play small ball, next day the play big and then they go back to small ball, benching players one day, playing them next day, feeding Hibbert one day, not feeding him next day, playing defense one day, not playing defense the next game, many, many things are going on with this team.

Re: Whats been the Pacers biggest contributor to a losing season so far?

I don't know if you can chalk it up to just one issue.

Our interior defense is atrocious, especially when we play Hibbert and Murphy together. Having a real defensive intimidator to pair with Hibbert would pay dividends I think, and I don't think Tyler is that player. Mcroberts would at least be a nice shot blocking presence and a factor on the boards, but he never gets to play. Not that he is the answer either necessarily, just the best option available.

Then there is PG play, AJ has shown promise but is still a rookie, Earl Watson is a journeyman backup. Solid backup, but you are in trouble if he is the starter. Talent at the PG position is severley lacking.

Coaching is also a problem. This offense made a lot more sense when dunleavy and murphy were all we had. This is the season where we should have started shifting the focus toward the younger talents. Hibbert has proven himself to just about everyone it seems EXCEPT our coach, who still lacks faith in him. We should be running more of an inside out game now, but Obrien refuses to change course.

Instead we run and jack threes, and play small lineups with the intent of punishing the other team on the offensive end, except it never happens. We just get punished on the defensive end.

There are also intangibles. This team lacks the spirit and fight it had last season, I personally think they are fed up with the coach, and they also lack on court leadership (Jarret Jack?)

I'm sure a lot of people will just say "Lack of Talent" and pat themselves on the back, but I think thats a bit of a cop out, and there is a lot more to it that that if you break it down and really look at it.

"As a bearded man, i was very disappointed in Love. I am gathering other bearded men to discuss the status of Kevin Love's beard. I am motioning that it must be shaved."

Re: Whats been the Pacers biggest contributor to a losing season so far?

So V let me ask you a question. If we had any other coach how many more wins would you expect? Lets say Rick Carlisle for comparison's sake.

I was actually thinking about this earlier today. It is a good question. if you could have any coach what could this team win this year. I think larry Brown could maybe get 36 wins.

On the poll question I wrote in player chemistry (Wells) because Mike wells has been talking about it all season long

Overall, I've been saying since about game 3 of this season that something is not right. The record isn't that bad but the number of times they have been blownout is way too high. That suggests to me either it is a chemistry issue amongst the players or a chemistry issue between the coach and the players. Or a combo of both

Still though the talent of this team stinks - worse than the past two years. Two years ago we had Mike, last year we had Marquis, jack and Jeff. This year Mike is about 50% Jeff has been out, Ford is benched (he is talented) Tyler is out. Danny has been hurt

Re: Whats been the Pacers biggest contributor to a losing season so far?

I agree that there are a number of issues at play here, thats why when I wrote the question I was curious to find out what fans thought was the biggest factor. In otherwards the thing that sticks out more than anything else.

Re: Whats been the Pacers biggest contributor to a losing season so far?

I think injuries in general should be an option. I think if Dun, Granger, Foster, Hansbrough and Murphy are all healthy from the beginning of the season until now, we are still in the hunt for the playoffs.

That said, I think I might prefer getting a top 5 draft pick just to speed up the rebuilding process.

Right now we are a team scrambling with just 2 legitimate front line players (Hibbert and Murphy)

Re: Whats been the Pacers biggest contributor to a losing season so far?

I'm sure a lot of people will just say "Lack of Talent" and pat themselves on the back, but I think thats a bit of a cop out, and there is a lot more to it that that if you break it down and really look at it.

This is 100% true, so I'm not arguing...

But we're talking about an NBA team (or allegedly an NBA-caliber team).

Talent is a requirement for a competitive team.

Chemistry and effort and coaching can set the champion apart from the contenders, but without talent its a non-starter.

I don't care if this team played harder and had better chemistry, the record wouldn't be much better.

Larry Brown or Carlisle or Karl might have squeezed a couple more wins out of this roster, but not many. And Brownie or Carlisle might also be squeezing so hard that the players would be on verge of tuning them out.

You don't waste a roster this bad with a "turnaround" style of coach. The burnout will come before the roster is ready for the next level.

The team lost its second-most-important player from last year (not necessarily the second-best player) and did not replace him. Oh sure, they signed three guys for the price of one shortly after he left. But they didn't replace him.

Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
And life itself, rushing over me
Life itself, the wind in black elms,
Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

Re: Whats been the Pacers biggest contributor to a losing season so far?

But we're talking about an NBA team (or allegedly an NBA-caliber team).

Talent is a requirement for a competitive team.

Chemistry and effort and coaching can set the champion apart from the contenders, but without talent its a non-starter.

I don't care if this team played harder and had better chemistry, the record wouldn't be much better.

Larry Brown or Carlisle or Karl might have squeezed a couple more wins out of this roster, but not many. And Brownie or Carlisle might also be squeezing so hard that the players would be on verge of tuning them out.

You don't waste a roster this bad with a "turnaround" style of coach. The burnout will come before the roster is ready for the next level.

The team lost its second-most-important player from last year (not necessarily the second-best player) and did not replace him. Oh sure, they signed three guys for the price of one shortly after he left. But they didn't replace him.

Some of this is based on "projecting" the youth, but I think we have the makings of a .500 or slightly better team talentwise, given another year of development for Hibbert/Rush/Price/Hansbrough, and a healthy Granger, decent bench, and of course a better coach.

In other words, I think we have the makings of a team that could get there. The talent upgrade will be required to actually do something once you get there. I see a lot of early playoff exits in that teams future, not unlike the 90s team in the early days.

However, you must crawl before you can walk. As much as some people want to see this team go from crap to playoff contender overnight, even "first round sweep" level improvement would be encouraging at this point. Doing it with Murphy/Dunleavy leading the way is spinning your wheels, doing it behind Granger/Rush/Hibbert is progress.

The silver lineing is that hopefully with this season in the toilet, the draft might give us a shot at that talent upgrade. If not? The three year plan is sound, see what free agency and trades can bring you once you have aquired some flexibility.

Last edited by Infinite MAN_force; 02-03-2010 at 04:56 PM.

"As a bearded man, i was very disappointed in Love. I am gathering other bearded men to discuss the status of Kevin Love's beard. I am motioning that it must be shaved."

Re: Whats been the Pacers biggest contributor to a losing season so far?

But we're talking about an NBA team (or allegedly an NBA-caliber team).

Talent is a requirement for a competitive team.

Chemistry and effort and coaching can set the champion apart from the contenders, but without talent its a non-starter.

I don't care if this team played harder and had better chemistry, the record wouldn't be much better.

Larry Brown or Carlisle or Karl might have squeezed a couple more wins out of this roster, but not many. And Brownie or Carlisle might also be squeezing so hard that the players would be on verge of tuning them out.

You don't waste a roster this bad with a "turnaround" style of coach. The burnout will come before the roster is ready for the next level.

The team lost its second-most-important player from last year (not necessarily the second-best player) and did not replace him. Oh sure, they signed three guys for the price of one shortly after he left. But they didn't replace him.

Re: Whats been the Pacers biggest contributor to a losing season so far?

But we're talking about an NBA team (or allegedly an NBA-caliber team).

Talent is a requirement for a competitive team.

Chemistry and effort and coaching can set the champion apart from the contenders, but without talent its a non-starter.

I don't care if this team played harder and had better chemistry, the record wouldn't be much better.

Larry Brown or Carlisle or Karl might have squeezed a couple more wins out of this roster, but not many. And Brownie or Carlisle might also be squeezing so hard that the players would be on verge of tuning them out.

You don't waste a roster this bad with a "turnaround" style of coach. The burnout will come before the roster is ready for the next level.

The team lost its second-most-important player from last year (not necessarily the second-best player) and did not replace him. Oh sure, they signed three guys for the price of one shortly after he left. But they didn't replace him.

Jarret Jack was overrated. Personally, I like D. Jones' intensity and aggressive style better. Once Indiana gets a better coach, I can see D. Jones playing the "enforcer" role from the wing spot. Someone mentioned putting Lebron on his butt when he was clowning us during the Pacers/Cavs. If I had to choose someone to do it who I KNOW would do it, Jones would be my man.

Re: Whats been the Pacers biggest contributor to a losing season so far?

Some of this is based on "projecting" the youth, but I think we have the makings of a .500 or slightly better team talentwise, given another year of development for Hibbert/Rush/Price/Hansbrough, and a healthy Granger, decent bench, and of course a better coach.

In other words, I think we have the makings of a team that could get there. The talent upgrade will be required to actually do something once you get there. I see a lot of early playoff exits in that teams future, not unlike the 90s team in the early days.

However, you must crawl before you can walk. As much as some people want to see this team go from crap to playoff contender overnight, even "first round sweep" level improvement would be encouraging at this point. Doing it with Murphy/Dunleavy leading the way is spinning your wheels, doing it behind Granger/Rush/Hibbert is progress.

The silver lineing is that hopefully with this season in the toilet, the draft might give us a shot at that talent upgrade. If not? The three year plan is sound, see what free agency and trades can bring you once you have aquired some flexibility.

I agree that our young core can grow up and become more talented. In the future. Right now, they aren't very good and one reason is a lack of experience (and perhaps they aren't really ready for that experience just quite yet.)

I'm not saying the entire roster needs to be scrapped.

If TBD/ Rush/ Granger/ Tyler/ Roy with Price/ TBC/ McBob turns out to be a competitive rotation in a couple of years it will be because all of these players grew into thier potential. And that's our best chance to be a contender again soon.

Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
And life itself, rushing over me
Life itself, the wind in black elms,
Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

Re: Whats been the Pacers biggest contributor to a losing season so far?

Personally, I like D. Jones' intensity and aggressive style better. Once Indiana gets a better coach, I can see D. Jones playing the "enforcer" role from the wing spot. Someone mentioned putting Lebron on his butt when he was clowning us during the Pacers/Cavs. If I had to choose someone to do it who I KNOW would do it, Jones would be my man.

Maybe Dahntay should play hockey. And maybe you should watch hockey. In basketball, that's a foul, and probably a flagrant foul. Very occasionally, it is a good strategy to "take" that foul.

I wouldn't make a roster choice around "who best to commit a cheap shot or flagrant foul?"

You don't eliminate Lebron's clowning with an "enforcer," you eliminate it by making the game competitive.

Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
And life itself, rushing over me
Life itself, the wind in black elms,
Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

Re: Whats been the Pacers biggest contributor to a losing season so far?

Oh come on. Better than "This team was built for the regular season"? Just because you were (were? ugh, you still are!) in denial...

Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
And life itself, rushing over me
Life itself, the wind in black elms,
Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

Re: Whats been the Pacers biggest contributor to a losing season so far?

But we're talking about an NBA team (or allegedly an NBA-caliber team).

Talent is a requirement for a competitive team.

Chemistry and effort and coaching can set the champion apart from the contenders, but without talent its a non-starter.

I don't care if this team played harder and had better chemistry, the record wouldn't be much better.

Larry Brown or Carlisle or Karl might have squeezed a couple more wins out of this roster, but not many. And Brownie or Carlisle might also be squeezing so hard that the players would be on verge of tuning them out.

You don't waste a roster this bad with a "turnaround" style of coach. The burnout will come before the roster is ready for the next level.

The team lost its second-most-important player from last year (not necessarily the second-best player) and did not replace him. Oh sure, they signed three guys for the price of one shortly after he left. But they didn't replace him.

I will never be convinced this couldn't have been a .500 team this year, because the fgws group never got a chance to prove it.

If Murph gets traded at the deadline and we go on a run, I will be fully convinced JOB prevented us from reaching the playoffs this year.

.

.

.

.

"I like our group of people," Ainge told USA Today. "I'm trying to teach them about basketball, and they're trying to teach me about analytics."

Re: Whats been the Pacers biggest contributor to a losing season so far?

I was actually thinking about this earlier today. It is a good question. if you could have any coach what could this team win this year. I think larry Brown could maybe get 36 wins.

On the poll question I wrote in player chemistry (Wells) because Mike wells has been talking about it all season long

Overall, I've been saying since about game 3 of this season that something is not right. The record isn't that bad but the number of times they have been blownout is way too high. That suggests to me either it is a chemistry issue amongst the players or a chemistry issue between the coach and the players. Or a combo of both

Still though the talent of this team stinks - worse than the past two years. Two years ago we had Mike, last year we had Marquis, jack and Jeff. This year Mike is about 50% Jeff has been out, Ford is benched (he is talented) Tyler is out. Danny has been hurt

Let me take this a step further. If JOB was coaching the Lakers or Cavs would it prevent them from going deep in the playoffs? The reason I voted the interior defense is I really think that if you had Phil Jackson brught in to coach this team unless he fixes the interior defense there is no way we win a lot more than we are right now.

Re: Whats been the Pacers biggest contributor to a losing season so far?

Maybe Dahntay should play hockey. And maybe you should watch hockey. In basketball, that's a foul, and probably a flagrant foul. Very occasionally, it is a good strategy to "take" that foul.

I wouldn't make a roster choice around "who best to commit a cheap shot or flagrant foul?"

You don't eliminate Lebron's clowning with an "enforcer," you eliminate it by making the game competitive.

Slow your roll. I meant a player who's not scared to get physical with the other player. A player who's ready to go war for the team. A Charles Oakley, Dale Davis, Ron Artest, Ben Wallace, KG, Zo....a player with a mean streak. An individual who will step up when the team is against the ropes and will come back out swinging. Maybe you should starting watching ballet, because right now we have way too many players who dances out of the way of physical contact.

Re: Whats been the Pacers biggest contributor to a losing season so far?

Let me take this a step further. If JOB was coaching the Lakers or Cavs would it prevent them from going deep in the playoffs? The reason I voted the interior defense is I really think that if you had Phil Jackson brught in to coach this team unless he fixes the interior defense there is no way we win a lot more than we are right now.

We would win more games, because Phil wouldn't have them jack up so many 3's and give up so many 2nd chance opportunties. We have players who can play interior D (S. Jones, Hibbert, Granger/D. Jones/Rush from the SG/SF, and possibly Hansbrough due to his energy). We just have the wrong coach to teach it.

Re: Whats been the Pacers biggest contributor to a losing season so far?

The team lost its second-most-important player from last year (not necessarily the second-best player) and did not replace him. Oh sure, they signed three guys for the price of one shortly after he left. But they didn't replace him.

I've said it b4 that Bird and the FO didn't understand the value Jack had on this team. They just plain dropped the ball. Apparently, Bird didn't feel Jack was worth the money and loyalty was.