NEWBOMB TURK wrote:
After Charlie gave the green light to teams to buy 360's Really?

358's are on the outs.

I know you like Trailways

Maybe they can get enough of the leftover 358's or maybe they may have some decisions down the road. Time will tell!

10 360 races with URC, ESS and Patriot's Car counts should be god for all of those.

You can run 360/358 either or so what purpose would it serve to revert back?

358's can beat a 360. I've seen it happen.

The 360's are easier to police.

I'm by no means an expert on the subject, but common sense tells me there are reasons that 360's are the class of choice across the majority of the US of A.

As far as who made the switch, haven't heard much. Cannon, Stutz and Smith alredy had them, and I heard Cody Keller got one. I guess we will see if they ever race. At this point it looks like a nice week and a crappy weekend. Snowing and blowing like crazy here in rural Sunbury. Got an inch already.

Just what I had heard going around the pits the past 2 weeks. Not saying its true or not but could see it happening if car counts don't increase.

I have a feeling your right about Trail Way. They are in the same bad situation as Selinsgrove. Very low car counts and the loss of a few more this year is going to hurt big time. They made big changes this year by dropping handicapping completely and drawing for everything so maybe that might help but who really knows.

The 360s might be easier to police but will they? The division is where it is because nobody wanted to tech to begins with. If they would have been doing that from the start we wouldn't have seen people doing what they where doing.

NEWBOMB TURK wrote:
After Charlie gave the green light to teams to buy 360's Really?

358's are on the outs.

I know you like Trailways

Maybe they can get enough of the leftover 358's or maybe they may have some decisions down the road. Time will tell!

10 360 races with URC, ESS and Patriot's Car counts should be god for all of those.

You can run 360/358 either or so what purpose would it serve to revert back?

358's can beat a 360. I've seen it happen.

The 360's are easier to police.

I'm by no means an expert on the subject, but common sense tells me there are reasons that 360's are the class of choice across the majority of the US of A.

As far as who made the switch, haven't heard much. Cannon, Stutz and Smith alredy had them, and I heard Cody Keller got one. I guess we will see if they ever race. At this point it looks like a nice week and a crappy weekend. Snowing and blowing like crazy here in rural Sunbury. Got an inch already.

Just what I had heard going around the pits the past 2 weeks. Not saying its true or not but could see it happening if car counts don't increase.

I have a feeling your right about Trail Way. They are in the same bad situation as Selinsgrove. Very low car counts and the loss of a few more this year is going to hurt big time. They made big changes this year by dropping handicapping completely and drawing for everything so maybe that might help but who really knows.

The 360s might be easier to police but will they? The division is where it is because nobody wanted to tech to begins with. If they would have been doing that from the start we wouldn't have seen people doing what they where doing.

Gotta remember too that this could be Charlies last year as promoter im pretty sure the paper said he has I think it was a 5 year option if he chooses to take it, if I were to guess i'd say he's doing the 360 thing to see if it works and if it doesnt he may not stay promoter. Then it depends on who takes over.

Are there any URC teams that may plan to make Selinsgrove their regular Saturday night track vs. traveling up and down the east coast for nearly the same payout? Will or can any ESS/Patriot sprints race there for a weekly show when their respective series aren't racing?

LM Fan wrote:Are there any URC teams that may plan to make Selinsgrove their regular Saturday night track vs. traveling up and down the east coast for nearly the same payout? Will or can any ESS/Patriot sprints race there for a weekly show when their respective series aren't racing?

Yes they can Steve Collins from ESS is planning on making several trips down. This week for opening day a bunch of URC guys are coming. Carber, Stillwaggon, Franek to name a few.

GOSHOW wrote:Back when KARS 358's started a claim rule was tossed around, but most motors were being built out of junk yard blocks and heads. There was a rule originally that you couldn't even use a new frame, it had to be used. That just goes to show what the class was intended for and how it has gotten so out of hand. The new injections and head rules have ruined this class from what it was intended. Back in 2000 to 2006 we could still run a stock 350 machined block and a standard 2 7/16 injection and be competitive. Hard situation to reverse and fix now! I love the 358's just don't like what has happened to them and would not start again at the cost. You may as well run a used 410 you can buy 2 for what a top 358 cost.

The tracks, Grove, Lincoln and Selinsgrove are to blame for the mess they created and are in. When KARS was started it was a separate group sorta like the WoO. I think the owner of KARS charged a sanctioning fee to have them at their track. They also had rules, a point fund and a payout. The three tracks said well the hell with that we'll run on our own. The beginning of the end.

This is the place where brilliant minds assemble to willfully pool ignorance with questionable logic in order to reach absurd conclusions.

The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all.
Gilbert K. Chesterton

Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it.
Mark Twain

I've heard $5,000.00 for a rebuild every ten races on a 410. 360 start the year off fresh and then one time after that. I'd like to see some prices. I would think a top of the line 410 is about $10,000.00 more than a 360 at least. Then you have the rebuilds.

Aside from a catastrophic failure I would really think that to freshen a 410 would in all honesty cost you about the same as if you were to refreshen a 360/358. Being there is a limited amount of titanium in both motors most of your costs in a refresh would be common to both motors. While I have never done a refresh on a sprint car motor I can say I've done it on my little LSx motor and these are the items I'm sure they would also check on a 410/358/360

1. Pull the rods/crank, magnaflux and check for tolerances. If within tolerance - refinish. Any cracks or wear beyond tolerance - replace
2. Clean and check block/cylinder bores against pistons. If bore is out of spec then rehone if material/rules allow. If pistons are out of spec for bore/out of round then replace pistons. Rings will always be replaced
3. In my little truck motor we just replace the pump everytime being it's a wet sump setup and they are cheap enough ($250). I'm sure these motors they don't replace everytime due to costs, but I'm sure they disassemble, clean, rebuild, and flow test the pump. If it doesn't meet spec it is replaced.
4. Never dealt with methanol, but I'm sure they do the same here as the oil pump.
5. Inspect oil tank and oil lines. Replace as needed.
6. Once piston sizes have been determined the pistons, rings, rods, and crank will all be balanced as an assembly.
7. Go through the heads and redo valves, new valve springs, valve seals, and keepers. Inspect and replace retainers as needed
8. Inspect cam, cam bearings, and lifters for abnormal wear and replace all.
9. Replace all head studs
10. Clean all components (for the fifth time) and reassemble all with new gaskets and seals.

If you break it into it's smaller pieces I really can't imagine where it would be that much different other than the frequency. So if this is what all they do when a motor is refreshed, Yeah I would say $5,000 is a rough ballpark figure knowing as much/little as I do. When looking for some additional info I found this on the Internet. I figured you would find this interesting. It basically covers a father/daughter race team out in California where he runs 410s and she runs 360s. And what all he has done during motor refreshes/rebuilds. Kinda interesting. http://www.circletrack.com/enginetech/c ... ewall.html

I doubt ASCS rules can't be enforced. The price of everything is going up, from toilet paper to sprint car engines. Not much R&D being done on toilet paper.

But you can bet your bottom dollar there is some engine builder out there right now working on something new to give his motors that little bit of an edge.

bkahn67 wrote:This is so simple... The folks that purchase the motors are to blame for the increased costs in 358's or any other motor, no one forced them to buy the next "go fast" part, they choose to buy it because they want to win. Everytime this discussion comes up everyone wants to blame everyone except for the guys that buy the motors. If your willing to spend it someone will sell it to you, simple supply and demand, any other convoluted reason you can come up with is BS. Nobody put a gun to anyones head and said you have to buy this motor at this price. The unfortunate side effects are what you guys keep going over and over and over on this board. Car counts are low because we have too many freakin sprint car divisions in this area, 410,360,358,305,super sportsman, can you imagine the car counts if all these differnt drivers only had 2 choices? 410 and fill in the blank, OMG it would be awesome!

You wouldn't have any of the above if there were rules and enforcement. One thing leads to another.

Convoluted B. S. I don't think so.

BYE!

This is the place where brilliant minds assemble to willfully pool ignorance with questionable logic in order to reach absurd conclusions.

The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all.
Gilbert K. Chesterton

Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it.
Mark Twain

bkahn67 wrote:The folks that purchase the motors are to blame for the increased costs in 358's or any other motor, no one forced them to buy the next "go fast" part, they choose to buy it because they want to win.

Isn't that the whole point of racing? If there is a part that will allow you to go faster...you have to buy it because everyone else is buying it. Why is everyone else buying it? Because they know that everyone else is also buying it! Its a never ending cycle. If you can buy something to make you faster, and you know everyone else is buying it, and you say "you know what, I'm not gonna buy that!" then you are allowing yourself to get beat, which is the opposite of what a race car driver wants to do. So I don't think you can blame the people buying the parts, they have to buy in order to keep up with everyone else. I don't think there is one single thing you can point to that killed the 358 division. I think it is a combination of all the little changes made over the years. Changes are usually never good for a division. Look at the super sportsman, there hasn't been a major rule change (other than allowing aluminum wheels and axles) for as long as I can remember, and that division keeps growing every year.