Just as many dealers have their ELRs listed for over $85K as have them listed for less than $60K. I don’t think lack of prestige is what is keeping them nailed to the floor. It’s the product. You can’t go after the biggest, most powerful EV with a hybrid Lacetti for a similar asking price. Who could have foreseen this problem?

” the brand simply isn’t strong enough to sell a car that competes with the Tesla Model S”

I don’t see any indication that they are direct rivals. One is a large sedan, the other is a small coupe.

I would suggest that the problem is that there is not much demand for small luxury coupes with fixed roofs, particularly with a lackluster drivetrain providing the power.

Its direct rivals are all convertibles. A lot of sins can be forgiven with the top down. Convertibles are not large sellers in general, but this is the sort of car that would benefit from that configuration.

While the two aren’t directly comparable, an ELR roadster priced at about $70k could probably manage a few thousand units per year, providing the desired halo effect and what I imagine would be something close to breakeven or a small profit..

Allante was another ridiculous exercise, but you’re right it was able to move more examples in its first two years than there will be ELRs. Allante was also a Italian bodied convertible V8 built from semi-premium E-body (although of course the first two years were the craptastic 4100 and sub 200hp). ELR is a Detriot born Delta II coupe sporting 84hp/96ft-tq from the gas motor, and up to 135kw from the electric (which is 180hp according to this link: http://www.convertunits.com/from/kW/to/hp).

Even in this upside down world we are living in I doubt its production figures surpass Allante, ever.

Even SSR is a winner in comparison:

“Analysts estimate that 24,150 SSRs were produced in total. Of the total production, 24,112 were available for sale to the public.”

It’s not hard to sell a few thousand units of whatever per annum just so long as those units can appeal to some kind of niche.

The fact that this car needs to be discounted is indicative that the problem is the product. There are a few thousand customers in the US in a given year that would be willing to hand over that kind of cash to GM for something different; it’s a matter of giving them something that they want to buy.

GM is a far stronger company? The only things that make either one look all that likely to be there for you is that Uncle Sugar seems to be the backer of one of them, and that one also has a substantial parts business supporting their existing vehicle base.

Yeah, you are likely not to have to worry about parts supplies for your GM, but I wouldn’t use the term strong company for either one.

I pointed out some time ago that Tesla eked out its Q1 2013 profit because of a one-time accounting charge, combined with its deferral of R&D.

Sure enough, the new models have all been delayed, due to reductions in R&D spending that helped to reduce those losses. It’s hard to get out new cars on time when the money needed to create them isn’t being spent.

This is the nature of the car business, and why small operators have a tough time succeeding — it’s hard to amortize R&D over a small number of units. But R&D isn’t an option, it’s a necessity, so playing catchup is not an indication that everything is just lovely.

If you want to really figure things out, then try to find out whether they’re working on the Model S’ replacement. At a regular automaker, the replacement model would have been under development as soon as the first car had been released.

If you want a somewhat green/hybrid/electric car that costs over $60k, why would you buy anything but the Tesla? It is by all accounts a fantastic car, has the highest rating Consumer Reports has ever given a vehicle, and has luxury, sports, tech, and brand status all rolled into one vehicle. Cadillac, and the ELR in particular, not so much.

Aside from Cadillac dealer principals and Mary Kay reps, I can’t figure out who would choose the ELR over the Tesla. Apparently a lot of other buyers have come to the same conclusion.

It’s funny how under-reported Tesla’s dismal dependability is. Well, it’s funny as long as you’re not buying their products or stock. If you buy either one, it is going to feel like you were deliberately mislead when it blows up in your face.

That’s that main thing that’s reduced CR’s credibility in my eyes. How they bend their ‘rules’ about recommending cars for vehicles they are clearly smitten with. The Model S isn’t the first time they’ve given a pass like that.

I called CR out about that BS and they somewhat admitted to it. I was reading one of my CR magazines and in one part of the magazine they were gushing over the Tesla and then in another part it showed the Tesla had a lot of problems, I will have to dig it up again. But based on the data they had, there is no way that car should have scored as high as it did with them and get the recommendations it did.

I did go shopping for these and the ELR has gasoline-enabled range that even the biggest-battery Tesla does not. For commutes of my length, this was an important differentiator – but then again, the Fusion Energi and Plug-in Prius have the same capability and get the same HOV lane sticker as the ELR. The Fusion Energi, at least, has a bigger performance envelope than the ELR; it lacks certain luxury touches but is awfully close for about 40% of the price of the ELR.

Looks are subjective – I think the ELR is beautiful, but here in the Bay Area the Tesla turns heads and the ELR just makes people wonder what’s wrong with you.

The real kicker is that the Cadillac dealer simply did not call me back until well after I’d bought another car – despite the fact that I had already bought a GMC truck from the same dealer and showed up for the ELR test drive in an exotic car. It will take several more years of great product to overcome all of the other issues that Cadillac faces on the way to getting BMW/Merc/Audi buyers to even consider a GM car.

HA. I told the saleman at the Caddilac dealer how to sell it: drop the price $20K. Although even at $50K, its a tough sell: its less useful than the $15k+ cheaper Volt.

Also, those listings may be bogus: this derived from some dealer advertising, and they could easily be pulling a Tesla and the $52K price is AFTER $10K in fed/state tax credits, which means its really $25K more than a volt, and $15k more than an i3 ReX.

And its not prestige vs a Tesla, its that the Tesla is a vastly superior car: much more power, much more room for people and cargo, much better infotainment, much better electric range, etc…

The only thing the Tesla can’t do vastly better than the ELR is a road trip, but anyone who’s able to drop $70K+ on a car has either another car already or can happily walk into Enterprise if they are going on a road-trip…

Well, I’d say the Tesla is vastly superior with one big asterisk, which is range, of course. The ELR’s not going to leave you stranded when the batteries run out, and you can fill it up anywhere. Then again, the ELR drives like a Volt in Armani (not sure who this appeals to), and the Tesla is fantastic to drive.

I also doubt that the type of buyers attracted to a Tesla would be happy about having to go rent some crappy compact car from Enterprise so they could complete a road trip. Still, I doubt these two cars are cross shopped at all (you have to have actual shopping to do that, and no one’s shopping the ELR).

Yeah, but how many Tesla owners don’t already own a gas-burner? Yeah, you end up having to take that road trip in the older S-class/Panamera/7-series, but that is one of those “Silicon Valley Problems”…

Sure, many Tesla owners probably do have more than one car. But that just reinforces the idea that the Tesla is a toy. I have four, but I cannot even imagine not being able to use my expensive luxury car for the purpose that expensive luxury cars are best suited.

Someone on here put it perfectly (paraphrasing) “it is the ideal California commuter car – it works great sitting in traffic going not very far very slowly”.

>> I also doubt that the type of buyers attracted to a Tesla would be happy about having to go rent some crappy compact car from Enterprise so they could complete a road trip.

Hertz has Mustang convertibles – that’s what I used last time I drove a car more than 150 miles and didn’t want to put miles on one of my own cars. Besides, if you’re really wealthy, you head over to NetJets.com and skip Hertz and Enterprise.

If I drop $50-70K on a car, I am NOT renting some POS if I want to go out of town for a few days. Get real. I’m going to put over 600 miles on my BMW in ~24hrs later this week. Why would I want to have to deal with spending at least an hour (assuming a supercharger could be found)charging it and/or worrying if I am going to make it. Even more nonsensical would be spending $1000+++ to rent something equivalent for a couple days. Flying to this destination would cost over $1000, and I would still have to rent a car when I get there.

If you have a regular, predictable commute, something like a Leaf kind of makes sense. A Tesla is a silly toy.

And as to the ELR – while I agree it is overpriced, it does actually have the interior of a luxury car. They are AMAZING inside. The Tesla does not.

Don’t want to drive your Tesla? Go rent a BMW 5-Series, Audi Q5, Volvo V60, Volvo S80, Cadillac XTS, BMW 3-Series, Audi A4, Audi A6, Cadillac CTS, Chrysler 300c, or any number of the high-end vehicles that any of your local rental fleets will have in stock, in basically new shape with unlimited mileage. And for little more than the price of a normal rental. For those that choose to drive a Tesla 90% of the time and rent the other 10%, they certainly have plenty of choice.

As for the Tesla as “a silly toy”? If you commute a known distance everyday, as many do, it makes total sense. Add this to the fact that it feels amazing to drive (unlike any ICE-equipped car I’ve driven, no matter the price). It’s also a clear shot across of the bow of an industry that has, quite apparently, not been brave enough in their innovation (not to mention their sales structure). There are many reasons to buy one, and I wouldn’t judge anyone who does.

Out of touch with the rental fleets?? I travel for a living. I rent 50+ times a year, and am Hertz President’s Circle for many years now. I am INTIMITELY in touch with their rental fleet. Unless you are getting one as an upgrade, a base BMW 328i/MB C-class will run you anywhere from $250-350 per day at most airport locations that even have them. A “Prestige Collection” car like an E-class or Porsche will cost $500+. The Local Edition outlets generally don’t have these cars, since that is not their market, so you also get to pay the delightful airport rental taxes and fees. A basic full size runs well over $100/day (sometimes $150+) with taxes and insurance these days for a short rental of a couple days. And you are insane to not get at least the damage waiver, as most personal policies will not cover the loss of use of the rental while it is being repaired, which the rental company WILL come after you for. A former coworker made that mistake at my last job – my company got to pay for *6-weeks* rental of a car while it sat at a repair shop in Illinois. The repairs to the car were less than the loss of use.

If Tesla can make their car refuelable in an amount of time comparable to any liquid powered car, anywhere in the country, then I will no longer consider it a silly toy.

As to how it drives, well, it’s like a really fast golf cart – I have driven one. I did not find it remotely exciting. A big shove with a high pitched whine is not enticing to me. I don’t drive 1/4 mile at a time, acceleration beyond a reasonable minimum is lost on me. And if you use that amazing acceleration, you go even less far before having to plug it in again.

Congratulations, so do I krhodes…yet our experiences seem quite different. I also rent 50+ times a year and I also travel almost every week for work. $250-$350 per day?! Um, I’ve rented from the ‘luxury’ class before and it was under $400 for a week. Avis’ off-the-shelf charge for a 328i is $110 per day (from an airport). Rental cars aren’t cheap, but neither are they atrociously expensive…certainly not for someone who can afford a Tesla.

That aside, I guess points-of-view vary. When I drove a Tesla, it felt like the future to me. Nearly silent, fast, immensely quick, yet refined and with great interior design and tech. Where sound and vibration are indicative of lost energy and inefficiency, I find the Tesla immensely appealing to drive, with very few of the costs associate to many other electric vehicles. But to each his own.

“GM has never had high sales expectations for this car. There was no money to grab. It’s supposed to be a halo.”

Halo how? It has mediocre performance, so no performance halo. It has less range and worse CS mode fuel economy than a Volt, so no green halo. It’s reasonably luxurious but not outrageously so, compared to other $70K choices, so no luxo halo. The tech isn’t even that whiz-bang. And, as a package, it’s not all that compelling.

It does look nice but so does the CTS coupe, if you like this look.

This reminds me of the SSR. It did something in each of several dimensions but wasn’t good enough in any one dimension to justify the purchase… and it didn’t sell well.

From what I have read, SSR was created in order to give the Reatta Craft Centre something to build after Eldorado (the craft centre itself being a plum for the UAW). I’d suggest the same of this model, but I doubt it was intended as such. They probably really thought it would sell, albeit in small numbers, but they were wrong. The trouble with Cadillac in general, is they have priced themselves out of reality with almost every model (among other things). $90K for a Suburban rebadge, are you kidding me? $35K msrp for an I4 Alpha sedan? How much for the nicer Equinox? I think its difficult to drop the price and still save face, which is why its only happening now after months of failure. Pch101 makes a good point on much is forgiven for a convertible, and this thing could have worked out better as a hardtop conv, at least then it would have some cachet.

I still say lease them cheap, bring them back after the lease, and crush them like EV1. Whatever is learned from the experiment can be applied to a serious attempt next time, preferably one with a sliding roof and one unable to be so easily declared as being a 21st century electric Cimmaron.

It looks nice and it’s low volume. The styling works in the abstract, even if it doesn’t translate into many takers.

As noted, the ball game would probably be quite different if the car had been offered specifically as a roadster, and only as a roadster. But for a few exceptions, there isn’t much of a market these days for small hardtop coupes.

Convertible buyers tend to be affluent and more forgiving of other faults of their cars, as the open air aspect of the car takes precedence. That’s an ideal combination of buyer characteristics for a car such as this.

Ever hear the term “anchoring”? If they got potential buyers to consider the initial price the new one will register as a bargain. We’re not logic driven. The car doesn’t have direct competition to establish a market driven value. If they managed to establish a sense that it was desirable but unattainable at 70k and then dropped the price by enough to move it at a premium over the volt plus … Leather and style? Then it worked. Not saying it was adroitly performed, but it may not be insanity at work.

…What would have been better was to create a car that can command the asking price for a given required sales volume…

This.

The problem with the Volt platform is size. I looked at Volt. It would be on paper a perfect car for me. Full electric for commute and errand running, but extended range to traverse Puget Sound without fear on Friday and Sunday.

The backseat is, errrrrr, questionable, and the cargo capacity is highly limited.

I really wanted to like the Volt – but the package it is in makes that impossible.

What GM should have done by now (but given low sales volume I can see why they haven’t) is a CUV or a quasi wagon al a Prius V or C-Max.

The ELR is by every report an amazeballs cars on the inside – but that isn’t enough to justify the ridiculous asking price, and the huge price gap between the Volt.

I continue to be bothered by the whole badge engineering “thing”. Is the Chevy Volt buyer getting a great value (a Cadillac with a Chevy badge), or is the Cadillac buyer paying too much for a tarted up Chevy? I’m afraid I know the answer . . . . . The unfortunate part for me is a complete lack of understanding of what a contemporary Cadillac is. This isn’t “same sausage, different lengths” (Audi), this is same sausage, different badge.

“Is the Chevy Volt buyer getting a great value (a Cadillac with a Chevy badge), or is the Cadillac buyer paying too much for a tarted up Chevy?”

You really have to ask that question? In fairness, though, badge engineering doesn’t mean what it used to – if you put an ELR and Volt side by side, you’d be hard pressed to know they share the same basic design. The ELR looks and feels completely different, and very upscale – just not upscale to the tune of $75,000.

The shame of it is that the concept here is interesting – an eco-mobile with real upscale styling and a plush interior. The market is probably limited to people in congested urban areas, but I think it’s there, but definitely not at a $75,000 price point.

The problem with the ELR is it should have been built with at least some of the technology under the hood that we will see in the 2nd Gen. 2016 Volt. The new Volt should debut at the Detroit auto show in early 2015.

Please provide a link to where I can buy a Chevy Volt coupe for starters.

Sharing a platform is not badge engineering.

If I follow your logic a Lexus ES350 is really just an Avalon which is really just a stretched Camry so why buy an ES350 when dealers are giving away new LE Camry’s for $18K?

Or take it further, why buy an MQB based Audi when I can just buy a stripper Golf?

Or why buy an ILX when you can buy a Civic (well wait a minute, that one has merit)

Why buy a used Volvo C30 or Mazda3 when you can have a Ford Focus? Now there is badge engineering if I follow your definition. Yet these vehicles likely don’t share a single body panel for starters. The Volvo doesn’t even share engines and certainly no interior bits.

Badge engineering is just what it says. You take car X, put badges from car Y on it and call it good. OK, maybe some light cosmetic changes.

Platform sharing is when you take the Delta II platform and build a Cruze, and with the same platform build a Verano – which shares less than 20% of the total parts content of the Cruze. Sure, it’s on the same platform, but they aren’t the same cars.

The ELR is not a badge engineered Volt which isn’t a badged engineered Verano which isn’t a badged engineered Cruze. It’s not even close.

While I wouldn’t call the ELR “badge engineered”, there’s no question you’re getting a Volt drivetrain, and when the drivetrain is your main selling point, that’s a problem if you’re Caddillac. GM should have released the ELR first, you can charge crazy money for something when it’s the only one of it’s kind. Then let the tech trickle down to Chevy. That was probably impossible due to the bailout.

The Volt setup is anything but pedestrian (it’s actually one of the most advanced, high-tech powertrains in production anywhere), so I don’t think that’s a problem per se. Anyone who appreciates tech in a car is going to appreciate what’s under the hood of the ELR.

The problem is that the performance doesn’t fit with the ELR’s looks and pricetag. That’s an issue.

“The Volt setup is anything but pedestrian (it’s actually one of the most advanced, high-tech powertrains in production anywhere), so I don’t think that’s a problem [Chevrolet tech in a Cadillac] per se.”

Do you work at GM? Or are you a frequent guest at one of their facilities? You’ve got to be drinking the Kool-Aid from one of their cafeterias.

The ICE? The ICE in the Volt is decidedly low-tech, far outclassed by the Prius or even the Ford hybrid engines. Cas iron? C’mon.

The drive unit? The drivetrain is a riff on the Prius and Ford systems. GM doesn’t even build it in-house, it comes from Aisin.

The batteries? The batteries are supplied by LG. GM does’t own this tech, their relationship is the same as with any other supplier. GM doesn’t get a tech advantage from batteries.

More lines of code than an F-35 figher plane? Ummm… Software is one of those endeavors where “less is more.”

Added: Then there’s places on my Priuswhere magnets don’t stick… aluminum body work. Has the Volt got any of that?

I am not sure why everyone compares the ELR to a Model S. One is a high performance family sedan with 5 times the electric range while the other is a niche coupe to increase brand awareness. This is like comparing the Cruze to a Scion TC because they cost the same.

Cruze YTD – 166K | Scion TC YTD – 10K

Compare Model S sales to an Escalade that pulls in $30 grand per sale versus a Model S that lost Tesla $60 million in 2Q.

The interesting thing in all of this is that nearly all of the remaining Cadillac outlets are part of a Chevrolet/Cadillac dealer meaning that the Volt is right across the floor from the ELR. Talk about easy price/room/features comparison shopping.

Interesting point, but I know of no Chevy/Caddy stores in my area that share a showroom. They might be in the same “auto mall” with several separate showrooms, but I don’t know of any dealers locally where both are being sold “under the same roof.” What you’re talking about might be more prevalent in smaller cities.

Actually, Denver didn’t lose any Caddy dealers that I know of. Then again, this is Denver – I don’t know how strong the brand really was to begin with here. Ditto with Lincoln. Folks around here like their expensive cars to be imported from Ze Fatherland.

And the Caddy/Subaru combo is downright bizarre, though it might be fun to try out a CTS-V and a WRX on the same visit.

Ze German car does well in Denver. I went down there to pick up my A6 wagon. We took my 1995 LeSabre there and back.

I didn’t see any LeSabres once I got south of Cheyenne. Come to think of it, I don’t think I saw any Buicks, except for one Roadmaster on a car lot. There were a few people that looked at my car, with a “What is that” look on their face.

Audis are big in Denver because of AWD. But Subaru is particularly popular, especially in foothill suburbs and Boulder, where it seems about every third or fourth car is a Sube. I’d like to be the dealer up there – it’s a license to print money.

And I actually see quite a few Buicks in Denver. One is mine – a big old ’03 LeSabre. Whenever I drive it in Boulder I feel like a freakin’ Visigoth. :)

I really don’t understand the feeling here that leases are somehow bad, or only to “move the metal”.

Reality is that most folks who buy $40K+ cars buy a new car every few years because they CAN. If you are going to do that anyway, it only makes sense to lease the car. Takes a lot of unknowns out of the equation. *I* wouldn’t (and didn’t) on my current BMW because I don’t plan to replace it wagon anytime soon, but I considered leasing my FIAT because I knew I would replace it in a few years. And I will consider a lease on my upcoming 228i/235i when I order it. All depends on the deal.

GM could move them at $80k if they really wanted to by subventing the leases. 0% or negative money factor and a fantasy-land residual would do the job. Which I am actually surprised they are NOT doing, rather than just putting cash on the hood. Or maybe they are?

I would say the ELR is the least of their problems. I live in a GM town that traditionally has no problem moving Cadillacs and I have noticed something interesting. The ELRs predictably are sitting like stones on the lots, not moving, but the Escalades are too. There is an SWB Escalade that has been on the lot for over a month now and they got a LWB one over a week ago and that is sitting there too and I have only seen one new Escalade rolling around town. The new Tahoes, Suburbans etc seem to be moving, but I think the Escalade hit a price point that people just say no and I can understand why.

I went and looked at the LWB today and wow, that is one cheap looking vehicle for $90K. Cheap plastic everywhere and the wood inside looks like fake plastic wood, the leather quality not great, overall a pretty unimpressive vehicle for that kind of money. Not to mention the previous generation looks a lot better.

The ELR for $400-$500 a month, no money out your pocket for 24 months would not be bad.

I was in Cadillac dealership once and after how I was treated I would say I am afraid to go there again (it is in Dublin). I my impression was that they are thugs (like drug dealers, naturally from Afghanistan – nice luxury car maker hires recent immigrants from Afghanistan to sell cars – unbelievable). The sales person kind of threatened me when I showed no intention to buy CTS. I do not say all Cadillac dealers are like that because I was only once was in Cadillac dealership ever but it was enough. I experienced real luxury car dealership experience in Saturn (been there couple of times). Of course GM shut down Saturn because they were so good, polite and friendly.

“I was in Cadillac dealership once and after how I was treated I would say I am afraid to go there again (it is in Dublin). I my impression was that they are thugs (like drug dealers, naturally from Afghanistan – nice luxury car maker hires recent immigrants from Afghanistan to sell cars – unbelievable). The sales person kind of threatened me when I showed no intention to buy CTS.”