So after that first week of clearing Normal, they're fully geared in Normal gear???? Is that what you're fucking telling me?
Learn how the gearing process works... jesus fucking christ no wonder people support terrible ideas, they don't fucking think!

Did you even read what you responded to? Raid finder has never been required to progress. Uptight guilds make it necessary, not the game.

If anyone has ever played old 8-bit Nintendo games, then there's a good chance you haven't beaten many of them. I remember playing Ninja Gaiden and loved the game, but never beat it as a kid. Came back as an adult and beat it, but my opinion of the game was never negative. Many games that were hard I loved, but never could finish them.
.

Exactly. I never once heard anyone complain about not seeing more end game raids in BC. I never got past SSC and I didn't mind, at least I had something to work towards.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by Itisamuh

Did you even read what you responded to? Raid finder has never been required to progress.

It is for casuals. Which, apparently to people here, are the majority.

Yet another witty and insightful Brandon138 post where he demonstrates his keen and intimate knowledge of the MMO industry. I just can't understand why Blizzard isn't already turning WoW upside down to conform with his wishes.

I liked the part where you went from "Subscribers declined when the game was streamlined!" right to "Subscribers aren't an argument for anything!" and then pretended this wasn't any sort of contradiction because you used the words "I mean really" in a sentence. That was really some next-level stupid shit.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by Brandon138

It is for casuals. Which, apparently to people here, are the majority.

Are you going to try to claim they're not? Please do. Please. That would be a lot of fun.

Yet another witty and insightful Brandon138 post where he demonstrates his keen and intimate knowledge of the MMO industry. I just can't understand why Blizzard isn't already turning WoW upside down to conform with his wishes.

I liked the part where you went from "Subscribers declined when the game was streamlined!" right to "Subscribers aren't an argument for anything!" and then pretended this wasn't any sort of contradiction because you used the words "I mean really" in a sentence. That was really some next-level stupid shit.

You obviously know something about next-level stupid shit.
Seriously lol, stop. You look like a fool.

Originally Posted by Zagnut

Are you going to try to claim they're not? Please do. Please. That would be a lot of fun.

Not in the way people think of them. Casuals don't all want the same things. All casual means is someone who plays casually, any other connotation is your own assumption about them.
I like how you talk like you've made a single point.

You obviously know something about next-level stupid shit.
Seriously lol, stop. You look like a fool.

Forget all this WoW crap, what I want to know is how you think the words "I mean really" at the beginning of a sentence modify it's meaning. I am absolutely looking forward to hearing that. That shit was fucking HILARIOUS.

Forget all this WoW crap, what I want to know is how you think the words "I mean really" at the beginning of a sentence modify it's meaning. I am absolutely looking forward to hearing that. That shit was fucking HILARIOUS.

Not that I'm surprised, but apparently you've never talked to anyone in person. Or else you may see how the vernacular gives a certain meaning.
'I mean really'=In all honestly. After thinking about it. Truthfully.
Take your pick.
Or keep acting dumb and looking like I fool. Whichever lets you distract from not having an argument.

I think what a lot of people are misunderstanding is that accessibility is not related to the difficulty of a game. I believe WoW is much more accessible than LoL, but that doesn't necessarily make one more difficult than the other.

I'm also confused by the notion that people are bashing on LoL's complexity (or lack there of). Just because something is simple doesn't make it a bad game, I personally believe both LoL and WoW to be simple games to learn and play, yet more complicated to master. Simplicity also can make for a better game as well IMO. Chess is an incredibly simple game, and I cannot fathom it ever being changed for more complexity. Sometimes something being simple adds its own complexity as far as mastering it goes.

In other words you started out arguing that subscriber decline was due to particular gameplay changes that you didn't like, and then three posts later after I'd pointed how full of shit you were, you just coincidentally happened to completely change your mind.

In other words you started out arguing that subscriber decline was due to particular gameplay changes, and then three posts later after I'd pointed how full of shit you were, you just coincidentally happened to completely change your mind.

And this is what winning an argument looks like to you.

Uh huh.

I didn't change my mind. I was stating that we can't be sure.
Like I said. Keep being foolish. I'm starting to see why you need faceroll content.

Exactly. I never once heard anyone complain about not seeing more end game raids in BC. I never got past SSC and I didn't mind, at least I had something to work towards.

You obviously didn't know any Paladins, Druids, or Mages. What was the phrase ... "got Sunwelled"?

You know what, I bet your account was created after Patch 3.0. Your comment is the dumbest comparison I've seen in this entire thread. It's completely wrong. Everyone who couldn't see endgame content in BC got upset about it, and that meant some entire classes.

30 minutes later after hearing a bunch of stuff he apparently didn't know about when subscriber decline actually began...

Originally Posted by Brandon138

I'm starting to see why you need faceroll content.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by Vulcanasm

You obviously didn't know any Paladins, Druids, or Mages. What was the phrase ... "got Sunwelled"?

You know what, I bet your account was created after Patch 3.0. Your comment is the dumbest comparison I've seen in this entire thread. It's completely wrong. Everyone who couldn't see endgame content in BC got upset about it, and that meant some entire classes.

Actually I do remember Paladins being lackluster. That's a different discussion though. Those were class problems not progression problems. It's not wrong, btw. I've seen a lot of people both here, in game, and irl that feel the same way. Noone even gave it a second thought that they didn't reach BT or Sunwell because they understood it was their own doing.

I'm still waiting for this thread to get back on topic. You guys are straw manning the shit out of it. There is a lot more to this than raiding.

Actually I do remember Paladins being lackluster. That's a different discussion though. Those were class problems not progression problems. It's not wrong, btw. I've seen a lot of people both here, in game, and irl that feel the same way. Noone even gave it a second thought that they didn't reach BT or Sunwell because they understood it was their own doing.

All hybrids were lackluster. Shamans were stacked for Bloodlust on Brutallus. That didn't make them "good". Not that you'd know who that was or why that was hard, since you joined this site in 2013.

All hybrids were lackluster. Shamans were stacked for Bloodlust on Brutallus. That didn't make them "good". Not that you'd know who that was or why that was hard, since you joined this site in 2013.

lol....not sure if serious...
Sorry but you 2 are displaying a whole other level of stupid right now..
I mean that's not even an insult. You are, apparently, trying to insinuate something about my WoW experience based on when I joined this site. And he has made like 6 posts all attempting to make it look like I said something I didn't, all to replace his lack of an argument.
..I'm starting to see how you guys reach these off base conclusions about the game if that's how your reasoning works.

..I'm starting to see how you guys reach these off base conclusions about the game if that's how your reasoning works.

Join Date
Jul 2013

You have 2124 posts since your join date. Given that you're incapable of keeping quiet about even peripheral discussions like late BC raiding, there's no way you could've been involved with the game for too long before that. You're screeching and crying at the top of your little lungs about how a game you didn't play has gone too casual compared to a mythic past you didn't experience.

Well, I did. I was there. You know something?

Good.

I'm glad it's more casual now. I've been playing since April 2005, and those days weren't all that great.

I don't miss being expected to spend 20-30 hours a week farming consumables and world buffs for boss attempts. That's not a measure of skill, it's a measure of one's tolerance for pointless bullcrap.

I don't miss long attunement chains that took days to complete, and if you couldn't find competent PUGs, you were simply fucked.

I don't miss raids being so hardcore that DPS was a hard threshold and anyone whose gear/spec/class lay below it got sidelined if not gkicked.

I don't miss everything being an idiotic waste of days to weeks. Grind, grind, grind, grind. You think farming chromatic scales for your FR breastplate meant skill? Fucking no, it meant you were a rich brat with a trust fund who didn't have to work. Nobody else had the time for that horseshit.

I don't miss cat herding 40 mans where half the raid was AFK and the offtank was an Australian stoner on dialup and you couldn't tell if he was lagged out or just high and running in the whelps again. None of the fights took skill, they took either resist gear or convincing 38 idiots to stand in the right place while the 2 of you who'd figured it out already played poker on those mods they banned.

I don't miss heroics being a cockblock for everyone's alts.

So tell me, and give explicit examples, because so far all I see is someone who wasn't there pining for a game he never played.

You have 2124 posts since your join date. Given that you're incapable of keeping quiet about even peripheral discussions like late BC raiding, there's no way you could've been involved with the game for too long before that. You're screeching and crying at the top of your little lungs about how a game you didn't play has gone too casual compared to a mythic past you didn't experience.

Well, I did. I was there. You know something?

Good.

I'm glad it's more casual now. I've been playing since April 2005, and those days weren't all that great.

I don't miss being expected to spend 20-30 hours a week farming consumables and world buffs for boss attempts. That's not a measure of skill, it's a measure of one's tolerance for pointless bullcrap.

I don't miss long attunement chains that took days to complete, and if you couldn't find competent PUGs, you were simply fucked.

I don't miss raids being so hardcore that DPS was a hard threshold and anyone whose gear/spec/class lay below it got sidelined if not gkicked.

I don't miss everything being an idiotic waste of days to weeks. Grind, grind, grind, grind. You think farming chromatic scales for your FR breastplate meant skill? Fucking no, it meant you were a rich brat with a trust fund who didn't have to work. Nobody else had the time for that horseshit.

I don't miss cat herding 40 mans where half the raid was AFK and the offtank was an Australian stoner on dialup and you couldn't tell if he was lagged out or just high and running in the whelps again. None of the fights took skill, they took either resist gear or convincing 38 idiots to stand in the right place while the 2 of you who'd figured it out already played poker on those mods they banned.

I don't miss heroics being a cockblock for everyone's alts.

So tell me, and give explicit examples, because so far all I see is someone who wasn't there pining for a game he never played.

What part of the "hardcore" atmosphere was good?

Yet you and millions of others played that game.
The work/reward part was good. WoW was never a game you played for just 30 minutes every few days. You should of quit if you hated all that, don't be angry that others didn't. If the game was always casual how could all those aspects have possibly been that bad(hint, they weren't).

And you know, there's a middle ground. And right now the game has moved to the complete opposite spectrum. I'm not arguing for a 'hardcore' game, and I'm not arguing against a 'casual' game. Both those things are just concepts and don't represent that actual game.

What I'm against is an entirely faceroll game(minus a tiny spectrum of raiding). It's not even about wanting a challenge, it's about the game being so damn easy that it's boring. It's leaning so far on the instant gratification side that it removes any motive to care. Resulting in a lot people not staying subbed for more than a couple months at a time.
Idk how you can possible hate all those things but like the current game. The current game is still just a grind but with less diversity. Your problem is that your focusing too much on the reward and not just playing the game.

I'm sorry... I'm kind of confused, what does this argument have to do with what GC said at this point? Just seems like pointless bickering.

My point is that without standard definitions of "casual" vs "hardcore", and without concrete examples of what was good about the game back then, this thread is useless.

Ghostcrawler raised one point that I think is very true: those terms mean very different things to different people. Arguing about a word that means one thing to one person and something different to another person isn't going to get us anywhere.

So, was the game good as a "hardcore" title? Ok, what was good about that?

My point is that without standard definitions of "casual" vs "hardcore", and without concrete examples of what was good about the game back then, this thread is useless.

Ghostcrawler raised one point that I think is very true: those terms mean very different things to different people. Arguing about a word that means one thing to one person and something different to another person isn't going to get us anywhere.

So, was the game good as a "hardcore" title? Ok, what was good about that?

Hardcore and casual are both minorities really. There's casuals, hardcores, and a football field of different categories in between them. People need to stop talking like it's black and white.

Originally Posted by lazypeon100

I'm sorry... I'm kind of confused, what does this argument have to do with what GC said at this point? Just seems like pointless bickering.

Yea I said that like 4x but they'd rather talk about.....actually Idk what their point is. I think they don't actually have anything to say.