The Rediff Interview/Subramanian Swamy

'Swadeshi is a totally outdated concept. As outdated as Marxism is'

Subramanian Swamyis back at what he does best. Make the mighty quaver. The Janata Party MP from Madurai held up the swearing-in of the BJP government by four days this week when his political ally, Jayalalitha refused to send in her letter of support to the President till she was assured that Swamy would be sworn in as finance minister. It took the best efforts of Atal Bihari Vajpayee and Jaswant Singh to persuade her to back off from her demand,
but not before Swamy had made his point. That one MP, if he is smart and politically astute, can stand up to the might of any government. Particularly if that government is as precariously perched as the BJP is.

Swamy spoke to

Pritish Nandy about his views on the Vajpayee government, and the BJP's policies.

Why do you think the BJP has so much animus towards you?

I don't think it is the BJP, really. The BJP is only a front
organisation. It is not a political party. It is really the RSS, and your
question should be actually: Why is the RSS against me? Frankly, it's not
surprising. We have been at daggers drawn ever since the members of theerstwhile Jan Singh flouted the oath they took in Rajghat in March 1977 that
they would never leave the Janata Party -- and then, promptly, left the
Janata Party and went on to form the Bharatiya Janata Party!

I did not follow them like cattle.This angered them. They have this
culture that anyone who parts company with them must be driven out of public
life. In fact, before they left they told me directly that they would do to
me what they had done to Balraj Madhok, Manoharlal Sondhi, Pitambar Das and
others -- they gave me a list of some seven names of people who were at the
height of their power with them and were destroyed and driven out of public
life. Well, they have been at it for the last 18 years and suddenly I
cannot expect them to swallow all that and accept failure. And not only
accept failure but also accommodate me as a Cabinet minister in their own
government!

Why did Jayalalitha back off eventually? Chicken?

She tried her very best and ultimately what would have happened is that
there would have been no government. The BJP had gone to that extent to
ensure that I did not enter their Cabinet. They would have preferred not to
have a government at all than to have me foisted upon them.

I thank her because she stood up for me. She stood up for me more than any
other politician had ever stood up for me in my entire political career. A
time had come when other allies were getting restive. Just for Subramanian
Swamy's post, how can you hold up everything? That was their complaint. A
little longer and some of them could have backed off. I think she did the
right thing eventually and she had my full support in doing it.

It is reported that Hegde and Jaswant Singh hold you responsible for
creating the mischievous impression that Jayalalitha was treated badly
during her visit to Delhi and misled into believing that the BJP was hostile
to her. Is this true?

Jayalalitha cannot be misled about anything. She is one of the most
well informed persons today in Indian politics. Large numbers of people
inform her on every issue and she crosschecks every bit of information. So
it is impossible for Subramanian Swamy alone to mislead her.

Will you lend your unstinting support to the new government after all
that has happened?

I have committed during the election to install a BJP government. So I
have no choice. As far as the vote of confidence is concerned, I will vote
for the BJP government because Jayalalitha has made up her mind that the
Anna DMK front will participate in the formation of a BJP government. So I
am bound by the discipline of that commitment.

That's all? You are bound by the discipline of your commitment to only
see the BJP pass the vote of confidence? After that?

Well, we have some other demands which have been given in writing.
After the confidence vote, if the BJP wins it, they will have to implement
these demands. If they do it, I will have no problem, Pritish. And I am
sure that the Anna DMK front will have no problem either. The problems will
arise if they try to ignore the issues relating to Tamil Nadu. After all,
essentially, the BJP is nothing more than a north Indian party. Its
mentality is also north Indian. They are quite capable of backtracking on
the issues relating to Tamil Nadu if it suits them. But I will not allow that.

Do you think the BJP's economic policy makes sense? Would you have
accepted it as the finance minister?

The national agenda will build in enough compromises. That you can be
sure of. But this much I would say: Socialism has failed all over the
world. In the eighties, I would hear every day that there is no inflation
in the Soviet Union, there is no poverty in the Soviet Union, there is no
unemployment in the Soviet Union. And now we find that, due to Socialism,
there is no Soviet Union!

We have to recognise the fact that we now have to be part of the global
competitive system. We can fight for fair competition. That there should
be a level playing field. Foreign investors get loans and capital funds at
two and three per cent interest rate and it is unfair to expect our
industries to compete against them with 18 per cent interest rate. Or that
if they want their foreign capital to come freely to India, they should
allow our labour to go freely to their countries. Those things we should
fight for. But, essentially, we should be ready to be a competitive
economy. We should learn to fight globally and we must be part of the
global league. If we are not part of the global league, we will be sunk.

Do you agree with George Fernandes, another BJP ally like you, that MNCs
in non-core areas should be kicked out?

I don't know what he says and what he means. First, he says, they
should be kicked out. Then he says they can't be kicked out. The laws are
such. But if the proposition is that the multinational companies which have
come here should be kicked out, I say that is impossible. Because we have
committed to the World Trade Organisation and almost 150 countries
have signed that. It is not like the old GATT agreement. The new GATT
agreement has a lot of teeth and if we don't abide by the rules of GATT we
will be isolated and reduced to the status of Burma. We can't afford that.

Do you think swadeshi -- as the BJP articulates the idea -- is workable in
that context?

I don't know how they will define swadeshi. You see, if swadeshi means
you must rely on your own resources, that is no problem. But you have to be
in the business of export, import. If you talk about swadeshi, what happens
to those 500,000 Indians in the United States? Should they be living in
America and sending money to their relatives? What about the Indians in
the Middle East? What about our own companies in various parts of the
world? After all, we have fledgling multinational corporations of our own.
Are we going to shut down all that?

If by swadeshi you mean that we will use only what we produce in India, it
is a totally outdated concept. As outdated as Marxism is.

What do you honestly think of the BJP's economic policy?

It is completely outdated. The BJP itself has given it up and is
talking of the national agenda. The BJP has no clue about how economics
works. The people who draft their policy have no idea about economics at all.

Why is your personal relationship with Vajpayee so bitter?

It has now improved. From reverse gear it has become neutral.

It is wrong to say that Vajpayee is bitterly against me. It is the RSS which
is most bitterly against me. They want to finish me off. They don't realise
that I am indestructible.