All this talk of Orr and Lucic made me go look up the video of their fight in 2010. I liked Orr already, but like him even more after seeing that! Both Brown and Orr are useful pieces that I would like to to see get more playing time. The problem with this team rests with players that are paid much more than these two.

Regarding the OP's question of redundancy: They are in different weight categories so no redundancy.

Teams do not get intimidated by your tough guy beating up some other teams tough guy.

It seems to keep some players honest. Without Orr in the lineup, other teams take more runs at our more skilled guys, at least that's how I see it. I think the Buffalo game is a good example. Do you honestly think Kaleta and Ott would play the same without Orr on the ice?

Exactly..for some reason a lot of posters here do not understand that if there is no deterrent Teams will mark it up on the chalkboard before the game and in every intermission saying RUN KESSEL RUN GARDNER AND BATTLE in front of the net no one is going to do anything about it..

Then Kessel for instance will stay on the perimeter and be a non factor..Don't believe me??? Watch last years Boston games

The "goalie running" also ended in the MTL game after Reimer got injured, and noone had to stage a fight for it to happen.

I don't think a player who plays 3 mins a game does anything to help the "smurffyness" of the Leafs.

Right,each team gets to injure one of our goalies and then we don't have to waste that all important three minutes or endure a staged fight.
The idea is to prevent teams from running our goalies not punish them afterwards. Goalies get run because the other team believes that your team will do nothing about it. If you do not respond, the bullying will continue. I can not see why this is such a difficult concept for you to grasp.

Teams do not get intimidated by your tough guy beating up some other teams tough guy.

Not the point. If you do not respond to a blatant provocation it will quickly escalate. The quickest response is a tough guy. You have to show that you are willing and able to play any type of a game the opposition wants.

Brown as much as i like him is not a guy who's presence in the line up is going to deter guys from taking runs and dirty hits at the Leafs top players you know who does(Orr).

Agreed, I eventually replace him as he is a tweener- not an intimidating fighter but not a great PKer or shutdown defender. He is,however, a willing fighter that takes care of rats(Downie,Ott,etc) and is therefore worthy of a spot right now until we get bigger and tougher and more talented.

Teams do not get intimidated by your tough guy beating up some other teams tough guy.

So Lucic runs around just as much with Orr in the lineup? Orr has an impact.

I'm guessing most guys that are undermining Orrs impact haven't played the game. Ask the guys that have played. Ask the Leafs if they like the fact Orr has their back. Intimidation is a HUGE part of hockey. It's tough to explain for those that haven't played.

Can anyone here list some of the other team's fourth lines and maybe ice times?

Would the posters stating that these two players are a waste of a roster spot because of their limited ice time agree that they may be more useful if given more minutes.Say,7-9 mins per game like most other fourth lines in the league.

How can these two guys be expected to be into the game and contribute more playing 3-4 minutes.I don't think either has been on the ice for a goal against.Maybe the other teams are keeping their top guys off the ice when Orr and Brown are on the ice.if that is the case,more minutes=less time for the opponents top players=less chance of scoring.

I'm guessing most guys that are undermining Orrs impact haven't played the game. Ask the guys that have played. Ask the Leafs if they like the fact Orr has their back. Intimidation is a HUGE part of hockey. It's tough to explain for those that haven't played.

How did your big scary intimidation theory with Colton Orr being in the lineup, who was just waived right through the entire NHL, work out for the Leafs last night? And how about Orr beating that big Yeti from Buffalo Scott how did that work out for the leafs on the scoreboard?

Goons don't even play in the playoffs anymore that's how irrelevant they are now they are a liability and are scatched. During the regular season they are nothing more than a sideshow they don't intimidate anyone.

There's another thread going here about Leafs fans being the worst in the NHL this thread right here with crazed leafs fans supporting irrelevant on ice goon activity is another good example of why it's true.

How did your big scary intimidation theory with Colton Orr being in the lineup, who was just waived right through the entire NHL, work out for the Leafs last night? And how about Orr beating that big Yeti from Buffalo Scott how did that work out for the leafs on the scoreboard?

Goons don't even play in the playoffs anymore that's how irrelevant they are now they are a liability and are scatched. During the regular season they are nothing more than a sideshow they don't intimidate anyone.

There's another thread going here about Leafs fans being the worst in the NHL this thread right here with crazed leafs fans supporting irrelevant on ice goon activity is another good example of why it's true.

The Leafs probably would have won that game if Miller didn't play so well.

It seems to me that the last couple of cups were won by the team that was the most intimidating.Sure there is limited fighting in the play-offs,but lately the tougher teams have been winning.

Westgrath, Parros, Scott, Crombeen, Labrie, Rupp, Shelly, Setisto are known for something than more then fighting?

Dude just stop it, we need some toughness in the line up. Brown and Orr are fine, and are not a liability. That's how its going to be with Randy as the coach, if you don't like go watch another team. The East is getting tougher and we need to keep up and not be pushed around.

We need a guy like Lucic, or Chris Neil I would love to have someone like that, can pot in some goals AND fight other people we are wasting a roster spot with Orr IMO

Yea cause players like Lucic, and Neil come by easily? What's so wrong with Orr. He plays his role, improved his skating and over all play but our sissy fans keep crapping on him. I never understood the softness of our fan base.

The idea is to prevent teams from running our goalies not punish them afterwards. Goalies get run because the other team believes that your team will do nothing about it. If you do not respond, the bullying will continue. I can not see why this is such a difficult concept for you to grasp.

And you believe that a goon fighting the other team's goon in a staged fight will accomplish this? Seriously?

Your talking about a different animal grouped in with goons some of those players you posted can not only drop the gloves if needed they can actually play the game and produce points.

Orr and Brown are one dimensional goons who do not contribute offensive production.

It might be a good experiment to let these guys play on another line for a couple of games to see what kind of impact they could have.Move one at a time to the third line and have 2 tough lines .What could it hurt,it's not like we're in a play-off race.

And you believe that a goon fighting the other team's goon in a staged fight will accomplish this? Seriously?

I believe these two players have been on the ice for an average of 5 mins a game,Orr with 3 fights,Brown with 4.I wonder what they were doing on the ice during these 5 minutes since the clock doesn't run during a fight?

I believe these two players have been on the ice for an average of 5 mins a game,Orr with 3 fights,Brown with 4.I wonder what they were doing on the ice during these 5 minutes since the clock doesn't run during a fight?

How did we fare against the Bruins with Orr and Brown in the lineup last season? Oh I know, we got destroyed, and pushed around, while the 2 of them did nothing to help the team win other than the usual staged fights.

Well, there's your problem Bud. He was not in the lineup. He was sent to the minors by that master strategist Wilson. Why was it that when he was in the lineup the year before, Lucic was a non-factor and Leafs won majority of their games against Bruins. Last year with Brown and Rosehil they lost all the games.

Well, there's your problem Bud. He was not in the lineup. He was sent to the minors by that master strategist Wilson. Why was it that when he was in the lineup the year before, Lucic was a non-factor and Leafs won majority of their games against Bruins. Last year with Brown and Rosehil they lost all the games.

It's interesting how he still managed to get almost 6 mins of icetime with the Leafs for that game (Oct 20th, 2011), while he was supposedly with the Marlies.

It's interesting how he still managed to get almost 6 mins of icetime with the Leafs for that game (Oct 20th, 2011), while he was supposedly with the Marlies.

Well aren't we the little nit-picker. Okay then, after Orr was sent down how did the team fare? I recall a lot of being on the wrong end of the cheapshots, the physical play and our smaller players were running scared, especially Kessel. If you are OK with all this, fine, but do not try to tell me that Orr does not make a difference.