yost: this shit is getting out of hand and it's FUCKING with the recruiting process. west virginia is just out for blood and they will do anything possible to fuck over RR and michigan. damn those bitter, jealous, angry hicks.

I know this is a UM blog and all fans are bias to their team but come one. If you had a coach who was an alumni from UM and he decided to leave but he told his recruits before his players or coaches, handed in his resignation letter through an assistant coach, and shredded who knows what (probably nothing important) on the way out the door without ever saying anything to the fans, and then tried to get out of paying the $4 mil contract he signed LAST SEASON would you guys honestly say "just let it go and move on." I seriously doubt it. UM is one of the top programs so you don't really have to worry about your coaches leaving for bigger jobs, but I think WVU fans have a reason to be pissed.

well, the BS coming out of WVU is already beginning to come undone. the big "phone scandal" story is already showing loose ends- http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080118/SPORTS06/80117100/1054.

the rest of the BS will continue to come up empty as well. wvu will end up looking like the bitter bitches that they are. unfortunately, the stories detailing what a bunch of lying sobs wvu is won't make near the headlines the lies have made.

on the other hand, having bill stewart as the coach the next four years will likely end up producing a "just" result in the long run.

just as you pointed out, in the end it won't matter if there is any truth behind the allegations. Well, it'll matter to the UM fan base, but to the rest of us it won't.

The days when UM could take the high road and hide behind the image of a "squeaky clean" coach, running a "squeaky clean" program (i'm talking about coach Carr) are over, whether you like it or not.

Sure, there might be no truth to the allegations, but just the fact that the allegations were made, already tarnishes his image. Let me be the first to say: "It's not fair". But that's the society we live in. People want to rush to judgment now, and find out the facts later.

so, i get a txt from a friend, citing the "shred" incident and stating that michigan doesn't have anything over tosu or tre$$el anymore, we're just as "dirty".

and i reply back- so, you finally admit tre$$el is dirty??

didn't get a response.

michigan's image and personna of a clean program does not depend on business dealings w/ other U's or large organizations- ask the Nike guys how they feel about the switch to Addidas. business is business, from stealing fritz crisler from princeton to playing hardball over marketing rights, michigan has never tried to link the integrity of the football program to how it makes money w/ the football program.

the program's image comes from ncaa compliance, avoiding the coach & players taking joy rides on private jets, not tolerating boosters paying players for jobs they didn't work, and holding players accountable for their off field behavior.

sorry,wrgrg, but in the long run, no one (w/ any objectivity) will judge a coach's image, as a coach and how he runs a program, by looking at how this K was broken.

in terms of a program's image, a coach having a pissing match w/ his former employer does NOT equate to maurice claret, troy smith, and 20+ arrests. seriously? can you imagine the exchange-

tosu fan- "oh yeah? well Rich Rod never paid his buyout clause to WVU. The days when UM could take the high road and hide behind the image of a "squeaky clean" coach, running a "squeaky clean" program are over, whether you like it or not. "

sorry, but in the words of JC- that dog won't hunt.

R2 has never had an NCAA problem. never had an arrest problem (which is not to say no one has ever been arrested @ wvu, but just not on a scale or scope different from the norm).

"The days when UM could take the high road and hide behind the image of a "squeaky clean" coach, running a "squeaky clean" program (i'm talking about coach Carr) are over, whether you like it or not."

If (and note I said if) he runs a squeaky clean program for the next 2/3 years I think our institutional squeakiness trumps his little bit of rumored sketchiness. And yes, those are technical terms.

The reports of our demise have been greatly exaggerated folks.... and we'll always be arrogant and feel superior, it doesn't go away- the degrees just change. Not saying it's right, but it is what it is. It's like Charlie weiss's fatness, even that stomach reduction surgery didn't help.

your program has only been "squeaky clean" in your own eyes, the rest of us haven't been agreeing with that for a while. And since you bring up our 20+ arrests, i would like to ask you: "How many UM players have been arrested in the last 5 years". If you do the math, i would bet the number is not that low.

Now, i wasn't trying to convince you that you have a coach that's dirty. That's impossible, just like it's impossible for you to convince me that Tressel is dirty. I was merely bringing in some outside perspective. In today's society, his image has already taken a hit, since these allegations have given his opponents ammo.

i am on record saying that i don't really care if anybody on my university's football team gets arrested or gets in trouble. So i definitely don't care if YOUR university's football program has a "squeaky clean" reputation.

There're a few things in life that "make me feel better" and bashing UM is definitely not one of them (so don't flatter yourself).

I think he was agreeing with you, saying whatever makes me feel better b/c I think we have a squeaky clean program. And from a program standpoint it's true. We haven't had a QB suspended for taking money nor a star running back dismissed for whatever else he was doing. that's not a shot at you guys, it happens in a lot of places, just not here.

As for arrests, they'll happen and I'll conceed that. NCAA violations are not a mere forgive and forget thing with our fanbase and our players adn coaches know that. So from our perspective we are still squeaky clean, and yes- it makes me feel better. Something about pointing at a trophy isn't as much fun when I know we cheated to get it.

Seriously, and I love the idea that because some bunch of jilted yahoos have decided to spread whatever specious crap they can think of to make themselves feel better, that somehow tarnishes Michigan's image "whether we like it or not." Well, it doesn't. It just makes those who decide to make judgements based on whatever sketchy innuendo scrolls across their screen look like smooth-brained, reactionary twits.

And Nathan, yes, you do need to get over it. When RR said he'd be there a long time (or whatever), I'm sure he meant it at the time. Shit changes. New opportunities arise. People get excited and emotional and say things they can't possibly live up to. For every dig you want to make, there's a more resonable/positive spin. Last year you would have bought one side, this year you're on the other. Just because your former coach made a decision you didn't like doesn't make him suddenly evil. Apparently it makes you incapable of objectivity. I don't know if RR is "squeaky clean." I don't know if he cut any corners during his transition between jobs, but I'm surely not going to make any judgements based on Internet scuttlebutt and kneejerk articles in the sports pages (which, as of late, have about as much credibility as the Weekly World News).

No, I meant it exactly how wingrg took it. Seriously, I have no interest in posting on OSU boards so I cannot fathom why wing, sru, Nathan (OK, he's a psycho WVU fan - I understand that one) et. al. would post here, other than to incite UM fans (which they obviously do). If he wants to post his obviously-biased opinion and supposedly represent "the rest of us" (whoever that is), I would go to an OSU board. But, as you said...

Jim- I personally am over it, but I don't blame others for still being pissed about the way he left. I've never thought he was that great of a coach anyway (21-22 record vs. schools with winning seasons doesn't really get my juices flowing), so I wasn't that disappointed when I learned he was leaving (of course I'm not too happy about hiring our new coach in the middle of the night after one win either).

Nathan, I'm confident that with the kind of talent R2 can pull to this university he will be quite successful. He had to win with less talent over there and he did it, so I'm not all that worried about him not being successful here.

And as for your highly original App state reference, I guess that's fair. I'd pull out a Pittsburgh reference, but you're now stuck with a lesser coach and the same talent you lost with, so I wouldn't want to rub that in. I'm sure when you guys go downhill and we continue to be a top-notch program you'll still be around whining about how he's over-rated, so I'll just save that for when you lose to the Pornstache again next year. And Rutgers. And Louisville. And Cincinnati, who's coach actually does have issues and who we decided not to even interview.

Look, I tried to be nice, and I tried to save you from yourself yesterday. Either start thinking your shit through or we're coming for Jennifer Garner too.

For the most part, though I can't speak for everyone, there are no blinders here. If there are issues with RR's ethics. They'll come out...eventually. But a parade of anonymous (and repeatedly refuted) sources and blogosphere opinion doesn't prove anything.

wtrck,i'm thinking you guys should switch from sofas to old mattresses. i actually have a couple of old mattresses sitting in the garage and was disappointed when tosu lost the bcs game (denying me of the opportunity of getting all the liquored up tosu guests at the house that night to help me carry them out and set fire to them in the street).

wgrg, arrests, convictions, multilple arrests by one player, add it up any way you like. the number comes out pretty much tosu = the next two big ten schools combined.

as far as our image as "squeaky clean" being just ours? go read any of the epitaphs (SI, ESPN, damned near any blog or sportswriter) on Lloyd's career following the bowl. they almost uniformly cite his "squeaky clean" record as a coach. it's not just our perception.

nathan,you need to give it rest- for your own sake. if all the tosu trolls in the world haven't changed our superior attitude and over bearing self confidence, i doubt you are going to make a dent by yourself. we're not buying the whole "R2's a SOB/you guys look like tosu now" story.

we are arrogant. we really don't care what others say. someone pass the brie'.

So what you're saying is he took a recruit who no one else offered a quarterback scholarship to and developed him to the point where he could win a BCS game? And WV won 11 wins three years in a row? You're right Nathan, he's not that good. /sarcasm

Look man, I was defending you when it seemed like most people were piling on today. It's not my fault you continue to beat a dead horse about R2 not being that good, and how he's slimy, and how he's not going to be that good of a hire. When all else fails you bring up App State? Let's see- three straight national titles vs. 5-6, 6-6 and 5-7. Not the same division, and apparently not even in the same class.

"Looks ok in the Big Ten but outside of that its just blowout after blowout."

Riiiiight. Because we so clearly got blown out by Florida this year. Like I said, learn how to form an argument. I'm not stuck-up, I just continue to point out inconsistencies in your arguments. If you can't handle people pointing out that you're wrong, than quit putting forth jackass posts. It's not my fault we have a bigger stadium, better tradition, better facilities, better talent and apparently a better A.D.- It's a better job, period. That's not stuck up, that's fact. So go ahead and whine, but don't get pissed when you bring a knife to a gun fight and I pull out a colt .45 and blow your ass away- just go the hell away.

yost, if he wants to make a fool of himself you should just leave his posts up. Negative energy aside (sorry to contribute but it's Friday and it's cold and gray and i'm stuck at a desk 3 miles from 30,000+ Sparties) he kinda gives us something to do.

sic - perhaps he stopped shredding the poster after he realized that they might not have another copy?

dabraylon17 - i'm trying to make sense of your name too. ok i know da is the retard way to say "the". and we all know what "bra" means. so half way through, we can see that you're "the bra". but what's "ylon" mean? and were there 16 other "the Bra Ylon"'s before you? perplexing to say the least

Man, Sru's on fire today! Did someone get a sense of humor for Chritmas? I think they did, didn't they.

saint,it won't stand in Ann Arbor. If he does turn out to be sketchy he'll be gone, but he's never had a problem before- it's all rumor and innuendo. Should be a non-issue. Now let's talk Ninja Recruiting!

Tell her I commend her for being a Buckeye and having the courage to move past white zin. I'm surprised they didn't ostracize her immediately upon graduating from Boone's Farm. Then again, they probably think it's grape kool-aid.

"I am amazed that there remains this much discussion over something that really needs to be put to bed. "

"When have I ever shied away from talking about someone who needs to be put to bed?"

however, arrogant bastard is an excellent choice no matter the weather.

as for brie? well, let's just say it's not bad w/ some fruit and a good chardonnay on a summer day and nothing says "quit casting a shadow on my tailgate, peasant" quite like french cheese & california wine.

"as for brie? well, let's just say it's not bad w/ some fruit and a good chardonnay on a summer day and nothing says "quit casting a shadow on my tailgate, peasant" quite like french cheese & california wine."

And you wonder why your stadium is Death Valley quiet. Tsk, tsk, tsk.

SiC,

Sounds like you've attended one too many Chick-Flick outings with the girls.

As for Arrogant Bastard...the other extreme of liquid refreshment. Good grief, that's nasty stuff. However, excellent typecasting of your fan base.

ok joe. whatever you want to think. i was not trying to think of a come back. but if you think you got the better of me, continue to do so. you are the bigger man on the internet and i just cannot compete with you, almighty internet message board insulter.

Now wait just a cotton-pickin' minute. I thought that was your title, DaBray. After all, I've been the recipient of your out-of-the-blue flaming diatribes. Don't let Joe walk away with your title. Get scrappy, my man.

someday it will happen. treseLL is a fuckin mob boss. he appears to be this perfect, nice gentleman, but those are two attributes of a mob boss. behind all the good things he does, there are things going on that should not be...like paying players.

"someday it will happen. treseLL is a fuckin mob boss. he appears to be this perfect, nice gentleman, but those are two attributes of a mob boss. behind all the good things he does, there are things going on that should not be...like paying players."

Geez, louise. You really ought to go to the FBI with this stuff. It's explosive. No doubt there are some buried bodies.

Well it was either poor grammar or he was telling me that my laundry detergent was in bed with a snake. Because I use Tide and not All, I decided he must just be grammatically challenged.

Whets,They'll never find the bodies- they seem to have disappeared, not unlike my ability to receive mail when I give people my correct address. It's all a buckeye conspiracy I tell you- all a buckeye conspiracy!

Melodrama aside, EDSBS enjoys coaches who don't have the Howdy Doody look. Not a good source considering the fun they've had at your expense over the last couple of years.

Aside from the Wolverine nation and a couple of Big Ten schools that can't compete with tOSU all I ever read or see regarding Tressel from around the country is that he's classy. Squeaky? Nope.

The smart guy who knows how to work the system to avoid paying taxes ends up being the better businessman versus the squeaky guy who pays up whatever the IRS tells him to. Yeah, Mr. Squeaky can go around saying I pay everything the IRS tells me to pay. I run a good clean business. I'm a good citizen. He's also stupid.

Meanwhile the tax avoider (not evader) says I found the loopholes in an unwieldy antiquated system and I pushed the limits of their interpretations back on to them. They could not find fault. Consequently, I paid only the taxes I had to and I'm money ahead to reinvest in my business. Smart and gutsy: a good combination.

There’s nothing new about those two competing moral philosophies. I think football programs adopt one or the other when it comes to the NCAA. Is one more moral than the other? Depends on how you view unreasonable agencies, their web of red tape, your view of redeemable athletes, your goals, etc. Sometimes it’s not a moral argument. Sometimes it’s just a worldview issue.

"whether the evidence exists or not."

That statement doesn't do your argument any favors.

Most folks, including the NCAA, bank their decisions on the evidence (except during presidential election years). It's that whole justice thing that separates us from corrupt third-world countries like Florida and Louisiana.

I believe you all are doing the evidence shuffle right now with your new boy...at least that's what the rest of the country is saying outside of the Wolverine nation.

I know, I know, “If any of these allegations against RR prove to be true, he will be terminated.” I’ll believe that when I see it. You all have entered a new era with Lloyd’s retirement. You may have to put up with a few smudges on your squeaky clean reputation every now and then.

For the record, I haven’t bought in to any of the accusations against your new coach. I haven’t seen any evidence. The soap opera is entertaining though.

I'm just looking forward to the day when Mike Hart takes over. He'll be a throwback to the classy Michigan coaches such as Bo and Lloyd.

RR just isn't the classiest coach right now. He's not as slimy as WVU makes him out to be, but Lloyd would have never found himself in this situation. He was sick of WVU so he left. He shouldn't have said that he would be there for a long time and he shouldn't have left before the bowl game, but WVU is launching a smear campaign against him out of craziness.

He's smooth. He's classy in public, although he does sometimes say things that can be seen as a little obnoxious. I think that there is something shady going on, but he is miles removed from Woody Hayes, and he really isn't so bad when you compare him to real pricks like Dantonio and Urban Meyer. The Pope was classy when talking about Michigan before the C1 Bowl, but Dantonio is just downright obnoxious.

first, there's no evidence to shuffle w/ R2. he's never had an ncaa problem. he's never had an "arrest" problem. there's no evidence to shuffle. he's run a compliant program.

the only negative evidence is he's got a bad relationship w/ his former employer and a nasty lawsuit to go w/ it. how will that effect his coaching and the conduct of the program at michigan???

second, tre$$el's ncaa problems go back to ysu. the "evidence" is staggering to anyone who wants to look at it. claret, smith, and dozens of arrests speak for themselves AS TO HOW HE RUNS HIS PROGRAM.

since you brought up taxes, here's my little IRS analogy.

remember, Capone never did a minute of time for killing anyone. he was convicted of tax evasion. does that really change anyone's perception that he was a mob boss and a vicious killer? all those murders- does anyone try to argue they didn't happen because he was never convicted of them?

that tre$$el has never been caught by the ncaa doesn't change anyone's perception of him, either.

You missed the point of my analogy. One man's dirty is another man's smarts.

If Tre$$eLL (that is pretty clever) is as bad as you want him to be then he's smarter than anyone at the NCAA or the NCAA is a bunch of idiots. Which is it? Is it both?

He's one of the highest profile coaches out there. Taking him down would be a feather in someone's cap.

Maybe we're back to my analogy and he knows how to play the NCAA to his advantage. Dirty or smart: you choose, but choose wisely.

By the way, I read all the YSU stuff and the Clarett cluster, etc. Sorry, I don't get it. Seems like ol' Tress knows human behavior, how people respond, what they're capable of and how to take all that, stay on the line and still produce winners. It is a business. I think he’s brilliant…and classy.

This argument reminds me of the citizen/farmer in the revolution using all sorts of "uncivilized" (cheating/dirty) methods of warfare against the British. You can criticize hiding behind a tree to shoot, but only an idiot stays exposed in the open. I'll throw my lot in with the guy smart enough to improvise even if it insults convention.

wt,i think the better analogy is speeding. some speed 8 mph over. some 25 mph over. and some drive the speed limit.

there is generally thought to be, in most every jurisdiction, some level of tolerance of speeding. 5 mph it strict locales, 10 mph or so in others. a few require strict adherence.

so you're driving along in you ncaa mobile, driving 8 mph, "w/ the traffic". everyone drives 8 mph over the speed limit fairly safe in the knowledge that speeding at this level won't get you a ticket.

then, some guy in a red car w/ grey trim blows by you? driving 25 mph over the limit?

since you're already driving 8 mph over the limit, you can't think the guy driving 25 mph over the limit is wrong? any trooper will tell you the consequences of accidents, etc., increase dramatically w/ increased speed. the problems w/ driving 25 mph over the limit is far more dangerous than driving 8 mph over.

that the red & grey car hasn't been ticketed yet (just a glove box full of warnings) doesn't mean everyone else doesn't see it for what it is, call it for what it is, and hold it in contempt.

Well, obviously our perspective is different based on personal bias (don't deny it) and philosophical outlook. We'll just have to agree to disagree and see if a trooper behind an NCAA billboard pulls over the red and grey car or the NCAA finally raises the speed limit 25 mph while people applaud the red and grey car driver for bringing reality to the attention of those regulating motorists.

Off subject: How in the world did you even date an OSU girl much less marry one? Inquiring minds need to know.

Vada,The girl is a Michigan fan in that commercial. I believe it's well documented that every time they show it I scream "Get your hand off her knee, she's not a whore!" like a drunken tourettes sufferer, though in real life I am in fact just a drunken sufferer who likes to yell out random things at the television. Take from this story what you will, which is probably nothing. :)

SIC,loved the defense of the decision. I once dated an OSU fan who looked amazingly like Elizabeth Shue (rawr.) and was a Scorpio just like me. While I think she was hoping to change me, I was just hoping to get in the pants of a Scorpio who looked like Elizabeth Shue. Alas, we both failed.

Follow the MZone

Subscribe To

The MZone-slash-MichiganZone.net-slash-MichiganZone.blogspot.com is in no way affiliated with the University of Michigan and/or U-M football in any way. If you thought it was, frankly I'm surprised you know how to use a computer.