volsunghawk wrote:Aldon Smith was a part timer his first year, too. He's seemed to develop pretty well.

He also had over twice as many tackles and almost twice as many sacks.

Irvin certainly has Smith type potential, but it might take til year 4 or 5 for that to happen. Smith was a much more polished DE coming out of Missouri, even as young as he was.......which is pretty scary.

volsunghawk wrote:Aldon Smith was a part timer his first year, too. He's seemed to develop pretty well.

He also had over twice as many tackles and almost twice as many sacks.

Irvin certainly has Smith type potential, but it might take til year 4 or 5 for that to happen. Smith was a much more polished DE coming out of Missouri, even as young as he was.......which is pretty scary.

Point is, he was still a part-timer. He developed. No, Irvin isn't on his level yet - and may never be - but the way SF has brought Smith along suggests that a part-time player who was identified as a pass rush specialist can develop into an every down player and expand his repertoire.

There are some folks in this thread who seem unwilling to give that same opportunity for development to Irvin, instead calling him a disappointment or bust or whatever right after he set a Seahawks rookie record for sacks. I wonder if some of these folks are the same ones who were prepared to declare Russell Okung a bust and made of glass after his rookie season, or who decided Max Unger was useless after his first year.

volsunghawk wrote:Aldon Smith was a part timer his first year, too. He's seemed to develop pretty well.

He also had over twice as many tackles and almost twice as many sacks.

Irvin certainly has Smith type potential, but it might take til year 4 or 5 for that to happen. Smith was a much more polished DE coming out of Missouri, even as young as he was.......which is pretty scary.

Point is, he was still a part-timer. He developed. No, Irvin isn't on his level yet - and may never be - but the way SF has brought Smith along suggests that a part-time player who was identified as a pass rush specialist can develop into an every down player and expand his repertoire.

There are some folks in this thread who seem unwilling to give that same opportunity for development to Irvin, instead calling him a disappointment or bust or whatever right after he set a Seahawks rookie record for sacks. I wonder if some of these folks are the same ones who were prepared to declare Russell Okung a bust and made of glass after his rookie season, or who decided Max Unger was useless after his first year.

Or James Carpenter. Or Koren Robinson. Or Chris McIntosh. Or Owen Gill.

(Don't get mad at me, bro. Remember, I picked #2.)

I wouldn't put Irvin in Either of those player groupings.

"Some people here have been groomed to accept mediocrity and lame ducks, I'm on board with the vibrato!" -SouthSoundHawk "BFS is kicking ass in here." -kearly (8/9/2013)

If Bruce's Twitter is any indication, he's VERY dedicated and passionate about getting better and proving the draft-day doubters wrong. Anyway, are we really going to pick apart these guys' interview demeanors now? Geez, would hate to see what you guys would say about Marshawn.

Bruce had a very good year. His presence was felt and he contributed. Came up huge on two plays in a wildcard PLAYOFF game. Seems the PC/JS regime's drafting success is leading some onlookers to get mighty spoiled and entitled. It's like a guy is deemed an immediate bust if they aren't a top 3 DROY or OROY candidate. Give these guys a chance to develop and appreciate their immediate contributions. Who knows what kind of career Bruce will have, but he showed some early promise in year one. Don't know how you can deny that.

Sgt. Largent wrote:He also had over twice as many tackles and almost twice as many sacks.

Irvin certainly has Smith type potential, but it might take til year 4 or 5 for that to happen. Smith was a much more polished DE coming out of Missouri, even as young as he was.......which is pretty scary.

Point is, he was still a part-timer. He developed. No, Irvin isn't on his level yet - and may never be - but the way SF has brought Smith along suggests that a part-time player who was identified as a pass rush specialist can develop into an every down player and expand his repertoire.

There are some folks in this thread who seem unwilling to give that same opportunity for development to Irvin, instead calling him a disappointment or bust or whatever right after he set a Seahawks rookie record for sacks. I wonder if some of these folks are the same ones who were prepared to declare Russell Okung a bust and made of glass after his rookie season, or who decided Max Unger was useless after his first year.

Or James Carpenter. Or Koren Robinson. Or Chris McIntosh. Or Owen Gill.

(Don't get mad at me, bro. Remember, I picked #2.)

I wouldn't put Irvin in Either of those player groupings.

I wouldn't, either, honestly, because it's far too early to determine, imo.

We hear all the time about "the rookie wall" or about it taking time for rookies to adjust to the speed of the NFL, or to develop the body mass necessary to really excel. So if a rookie struggles to make a significant impact - even if they're a 1st rounder - I tend to see that more as something not really surprising, but par for the course. It's awesome when we find a rookie who shines rather than struggles, but usually they do a bit of both. And Irvin did have moments where he shined this year, just like he had moments where he struggled.

In the end, I just don't think you can accurately predict whether a player is a scrub or a star in just their first year unless you're dealing with a clear outlier (like Wilson). I think each player needs time with the team for development, both physically and in his understanding of the scheme, to really find out what we have in him.

volsunghawk wrote:We hear all the time about "the rookie wall" or about it taking time for rookies to adjust to the speed of the NFL, or to develop the body mass necessary to really excel. So if a rookie struggles to make a significant impact - even if they're a 1st rounder - I tend to see that more as something not really surprising, but par for the course. It's awesome when we find a rookie who shines rather than struggles, but usually they do a bit of both. And Irvin did have moments where he shined this year, just like he had moments where he struggled.

In the end, I just don't think you can accurately predict whether a player is a scrub or a star in just their first year unless you're dealing with a clear outlier (like Wilson). I think each player needs time with the team for development, both physically and in his understanding of the scheme, to really find out what we have in him.

Of course. You are absolutely right.

"Some people here have been groomed to accept mediocrity and lame ducks, I'm on board with the vibrato!" -SouthSoundHawk "BFS is kicking ass in here." -kearly (8/9/2013)

volsunghawk wrote:In the end, I just don't think you can accurately predict whether a player is a scrub or a star in just their first year unless you're dealing with a clear outlier (like Wilson). I think each player needs time with the team for development, both physically and in his understanding of the scheme, to really find out what we have in him.

I'm with ya. I just don't like all the "OMG IRVIN'S THE BEST EVER PICK AND NO OTHER D-LINEMAN WOULD HAVE BEEN AS GOOD ON OUR TEAM!!!!!!!!" mentality.

The fact is just about any of the other DL picks in the top 20 would have done well on our line. What we're banking on is the potential of Irvin being great.........as opposed to just serviceable.

Jeez, I would hope by now that people would understand that he was a raw player with great speed coming in, with still being raw he provided pressure a lot and got his sacks. Having Quinn here I think will unleash the beast that we will see for years to come. He has the right attitude and skills that you can't coach. Speed and a desire to prove himself and people wrong.

With Quinn here he will be double digit next year I would bank on it. I also expect to see him stronger and bigger by a few more pungds. I think I read he put on 15 to 20 more from his college weight. That alone is hard for a guy to assimulate and continue to perform at a high level. With training and technique we will see him be much more comfortable at that weight and he will regain more of his burst.

To Be P/C or Not P/C That is the Question..........Seahawks kick Ass !!!! Check your PM's, Thank you for everything Radish RIP My Friend. Member of the 38 club.

Call it what you wanna call it... Rookie hangover.. Rookie Wall... 2nd year slump... But if there is any player who I think that will happen to, it's Bruce Irvin. I am basing this on his visible personality and work ethic. I think he will be a letdown next year but will eventually develop into a solid player in a few years.

If you can't follow or havent followed this conversation from its start, please do not jump in midstream. Nothing personal, but believe me-you have asked a question of a quote that was directed at a specific person in a specific conversation within a room full of people talking at the same time (that would be a metaphor for this thread).

There is context to the above quote. And your question is not relevant to the argument I was having with that guy.

This whole thread, in fact, is a classic .NET scenario.

A poll is posted. Less than 3% have an opinion and choose the option that is seen as extreme.Lynch mobs and goon squads descend upon the thread and assume the worst of everyone's views.I can't even follow it anymore, myself, and I have been here from the beginning.

My vote was for option #2, btw, if it matters. It's my opinion. It's an opinion. An opinion.

'

Jesus... Why are you so condescending?

I think "themunn" was actually following your posts the best they could have possibly been followed. Actually, wait.. He went back and quoted most of your posts to prove it.. This one - Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:11 pm.. Didn't see that, my bad.

Just relax a bit man. Seems to me like you attack the poster rather than respond to their actual post. Not all the time, but from this thread, that's what it looks like.

If you can't follow or havent followed this conversation from its start, please do not jump in midstream. Nothing personal, but believe me-you have asked a question of a quote that was directed at a specific person in a specific conversation within a room full of people talking at the same time (that would be a metaphor for this thread).

There is context to the above quote. And your question is not relevant to the argument I was having with that guy.

This whole thread, in fact, is a classic .NET scenario.

A poll is posted. Less than 3% have an opinion and choose the option that is seen as extreme.Lynch mobs and goon squads descend upon the thread and assume the worst of everyone's views.I can't even follow it anymore, myself, and I have been here from the beginning.

My vote was for option #2, btw, if it matters. It's my opinion. It's an opinion. An opinion.

'

Jesus... Why are you so condescending?

I think "themunn" was actually following your posts the best they could have possibly been followed. Actually, wait.. He went back and quoted most of your posts to prove it.. This one - Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:11 pm.. Didn't see that, my bad.

Just relax a bit man. Seems to me like you attack the poster rather than respond to their actual post. Not all the time, but from this thread, that's what it looks like.

You missed more than that, but I am not going to get into it here. I am done with this particular thread. If you want to have this kind of conversation (or share other concerns about my internet identity) Id be happy to sort it out via PM.

"Some people here have been groomed to accept mediocrity and lame ducks, I'm on board with the vibrato!" -SouthSoundHawk "BFS is kicking ass in here." -kearly (8/9/2013)

I think you will see Bruce round into a more complete player next year. He might not have more or as many sacks, but will be a much better every down player. The kid had a great rookie year and I think that we will see him continue to grow.

While I will never say something as stupid as "sacks don't matter" I do believe that fans, in general, overrate sacks while not seeing other attributes that players bring to the table. Also, there seems to be an undercurrent of "he was drafted here, so he should be this productive by now" in many fan opinions. And usually, their idea of what "productive" means can vary a lot. I'm thankful that our coaches and FO have their own criteria to evaluate players and make decisions about who to cut or not.

I feel about Irvin about like I felt about Tate all along. Give him some time.

Talent can get you to the playoffs.It takes character to win when you get there.SUPER BOWL XLVIII CHAMPIONS