RexTalionis:Theaetetus: RexTalionis: Part of the reason that our economy (and population) is still expanding is because in the US, immigration is adding more residents to counteract the declining birthrate.

I find that most of the people fearmongering about the declining birth rate are primarily concerned about the declining white birth rate.

Right. And if you look at every single developed country in the world, the birth rate is declining EVERYWHERE, so the US is not exactly all that special in this regard.

With automation and outsourcing, we're not going to have enough jobs for the population we're naturally going to have, never mind for the population we'd have with 2.3+ fertility rate plus immigration.

You can't run a social system based on the prospect of limitless growth. Blame the ones without foresight who engineered it, not the ones not breeding until their genitalia explode.

I'm convinced I'll have one child. At least, I keep telling myself that I want to have one child. But, I have NOOOOOO idea when this will happen. I'm 32 and married BUT still searching for that ellusive entry level job that will kickstart my career. Then I will need maternity leave. Then daycare. And hope my parents move closer to the West coast.

hubiestubert:Well, there's that idea, or we could accept changing economic conditions and limitations on land, and look to more sustainable economic models...

Right, and God could just create an alternate earth orbiting this one that is full of unicorns and puppies where we all could go and be so so happy. A much more reasonable idea is simply to breed our way out of this problem because after all the economy is not a zero sum game and there are infinite resources that only become more plentiful as we grow in numbers.

To paraphrase Voltaire, the comfort of the rich requires a vast population of poor.

There is absolutely no danger we'll run out of workers to wipe the butts of nursing-home patients, though we might well run out of workers poor and desperate enough to do this in exchange for poverty wages.

hubiestubert:Well, there's that idea, or we could accept changing economic conditions and limitations on land, and look to more sustainable economic models...

That's the only solution long-term, but the hardest to "sell" right now. (After all, we've got decades worth of heavy sour crude in the bottom of the ocean and 3D printing will be just like Star Trek.) But you know what? It's going to happen anyways, bit by bit, year by year. We've already changed our social model a few times since the Victorian era, for example. I see young people today, sneeringly referred to as hipsters by older people, living simpler lives, wearing recycled clothes, using old technology, riding bikes. They've already eschewed the "normative three pillars" of white man society, the car, the suburbs and the kids. Remains to see what will happen as they age.

I'm old, I have no car, no house in the suburbs. I do buy new clothes, but mostly Foot Locker T-shirts because you never find t-shirts in used clothes stores.

Snort:The unstated issue is that brown people are breeding. AND they worship the wrong deities.

RexTalionis:Theaetetus: RexTalionis: Part of the reason that our economy (and population) is still expanding is because in the US, immigration is adding more residents to counteract the declining birthrate.

I find that most of the people fearmongering about the declining birth rate are primarily concerned about the declining white birth rate.

Right. And if you look at every single developed country in the world, the birth rate is declining EVERYWHERE, so the US is not exactly all that special in this regard.

I think you just contradicted yourself. Actually the US IS special in that regard. We are actually the ONLY developed country that DO NOT suffer from population declination in the coming years. The US is still maintaining a very healthy growth rate and coupled that with continued immigration will ensure a robust population growth in the coming decades.

Cyrusv10:Yeah, but why do people in third world countries insist on having more babies?

/makes no sense

Actually most 3rd world countries also have declining birth rates too, they just haven't been declining for the same length of time.

Basically when infant mortality rate drops below a certain threshhold, fertility rates plummet. In 1960 there was easily over a dozen countries with a fertility rate over 7, as of 2010 there is only one.

Take a look at this chart I whipped up with google public date for a nice visualization, just press play.

Cyrusv10:Yeah, but why do people in third world countries insist on having more babies?

/makes no sense

Well, sex is fun and there's not a whole lot of entertainment options for the poor in most 3rd world countries. Combine higher infant mortality rates with societal and religious barriers to birth control and then toss in the fact that kids in a lot of these countries are viewed as a viable labor force and you get population explosion. The infant mortality thing seems counter intuitive at first, but the way you get around that is by trying to have more kids.

Economy is a meaningless construct that simply serves as a tool to help us distribute goods and encourage the necessary labor for survival. It's completely at our disposal to change.

We can feed everyone we have, shelter them, and keep them warm/cool. We can fund scientific research and exploration. We can produce art. We can repair roads, buildings, etc. We don't need more babies to do any of these things.

Considering climate change, overfishing, the pacific garbage patch, dwindling resources of all kinds, fewer people will lengthen the usability of all resources while doing a small bit to counter the damage we've done and increase the chances of a rebound.

If nothing else, should things change drastically and force major changes to lifestyle (or causing shortages), a smaller population will be able to adjust more easily with less deaths and upheaval.

Oh, the freakout over this is so stupid. The human race isn't going to die out. We're not going to descend into chaos. This isn't Children of Men. People aren't having kids because kids are expensive and the economy is bad. We'll all live. The economy will not come crashing down because women aren't having enough babies. IT WILL ALL BE OKAY.

SuperNinjaToad:RexTalionis: Theaetetus: RexTalionis: Part of the reason that our economy (and population) is still expanding is because in the US, immigration is adding more residents to counteract the declining birthrate.

I find that most of the people fearmongering about the declining birth rate are primarily concerned about the declining white birth rate.

Right. And if you look at every single developed country in the world, the birth rate is declining EVERYWHERE, so the US is not exactly all that special in this regard.

I think you just contradicted yourself. Actually the US IS special in that regard. We are actually the ONLY developed country that DO NOT suffer from population declination in the coming years. The US is still maintaining a very healthy growth rate and coupled that with continued immigration will ensure a robust population growth in the coming decades.

No, I didn't. I said the population is growing in the US, but the birth rate is declining in the US. These two bits of data is not contradictory, and in fact, that's the whole point of my previous posts.

I hope that all of the people who don't think this is a problem are ok with Medicare and Social Security not existing when it comes time for them to collect. We don't need massive population growth, but you need young workers to support those programs. Otherwise they go away. And I'd better not see you screaming that they shouldn't ever be cut, either.

//Completely support those programs, as long as reasonable mods are made to keep them sustainable. But none of that is possible if we have population decline.

PS - if the US, Europe, and Japan are all competing for immigrants... does immigration solve our problem? Probably aren't enough to go around.

RexTalionis:Right. And if you look at every single developed country in the world, the birth rate is declining EVERYWHERE, so the US is not exactly all that special in this regard.

The Northern Peninsula Albino is a unique, rare creature in the world. Their skin displays a rainbow of colors from the deficiency in pigment. The rest of the monotone browns should strive to achieve the multicolored brilliance of the Caucasian. That's why they need to outbreed the brownies.

Theaetetus:RexTalionis: Part of the reason that our economy (and population) is still expanding is because in the US, immigration is adding more residents to counteract the declining birthrate.

I find that most of the people fearmongering about the declining birth rate are primarily concerned about the declining white birth rate.

I find that you don't know what birth rates are doing everywhere in the world. Declining birth rates follow urbanization, apparently. They're falling in Mexico, South America, the Middle East, East Asia... this isn't a caucasian problem. Essentially, they're declining all over the world at the same time. Save your preconceived notions for other discussions.

violetvolume:Oh, the freakout over this is so stupid. The human race isn't going to die out. We're not going to descend into chaos. This isn't Children of Men. People aren't having kids because kids are expensive and the economy is bad. We'll all live. The economy will not come crashing down because women aren't having enough babies. IT WILL ALL BE OKAY.

I hate to break it to you, but problems aren't solved by wishful thinking...

Hell, massive regressive societal changes will help. Women, go home and raise the kids again. Men get the jobs, children are raised in a civilized manner, and probably most importantly children are born when women are younger which is far healthier for both mother and child.