I am not firmly stateing the tulku must persist, just that the problem persists to which tulku was once the partial remedy.

Remove this thing this money thing...this is the obstruction, the main obstruction. This was initially intended to be allowed for.

Otherwise it would flourish and spread....the world may be different. a different place. These are the true teachings the real path the way out... and only here are they found.

This will never happen...unknown donations.
Then buddhism could would rise to what was originally intended.....millions upon millions nonreturning, in these, the darkest of times.
What a sight that would be. Quite outstanding and astounding.
The demons would allow no such thing

"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.

I do not have as high expectations for reincarnations (basically none) as I do for tulkus.

Above the eighth bhumi, a reincarnation cannot lose clarity since they have no more afflictive obscuration to lose. On the impure bhumis one still has afflictive obscurations.

The idea that someone achieves the upper bhumis through Vajrayāna methods, and then "loses" clarity, however, is an impossibility.

N

Yeah but there is what the word Tuklu is supposed to mean originally = nirmanakaya, and then what it has come to mean conventionally over time. Similar to how the word khandro is sometimes used, ---it does not always refer to actual Dakinis. It is clear in the case of reincarnation lineages where Tibetans are adamant that there can not be more than one, such as the Karmapa-- that they are not referring to nirmanakaya in the proper sense, --if they were then there could and should be innumerable manifestations, because can not true nirmanakayas emanate countless forms? Or maybe that is the myopic conventions of the Tibetans who have a hard time dealing with more than one for political and economic reasons, even when a tulku is not involved but multiple realized sons of a great Lama they seem to resort to this convention.

So Namdrol even if some of these reincarnation lineages are 1st, 4th, and 7th level Bodhisattvas are they still not of benefit to beings? And because they can still lose clarity and "fall", isn't it more important to recognize them and give them the proper training from an early age to increase the likelyhood of continuing the ascent through the Bhumis rather than falling?

And if an 8th level Bodhisattva teacher has many students that break their samaya in serious ways, this will not affect the teacher at all, not even the appearance of the teacher?

Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

Adamantine wrote: It is clear in the case of reincarnation lineages where Tibetans are adamant that there can not be more than one, such as the Karmapa-- that they are not referring to nirmanakaya in the proper sense...

There has been more than one Karmapa several times in history. But because of the money and power game, only one can be put on the Tshurphu throne.

So Namdrol even if some of these reincarnation lineages are 1st, 4th, and 7th level Bodhisattvas are they still not of benefit to beings? And because they can still lose clarity and "fall", isn't it more important to recognize them and give them the proper training from an early age to increase the likelyhood of continuing the ascent through the Bhumis rather than falling?

Sapan writes:

"It is taught in the Sutra of the Ten Stages that because of being born for an instant, one hundred twelve qualities are attained; one hundred samadhis are attained, in that equipoise, one sees one hundred Buddhas; one understand their blessings; one shakes one hundred world realms; one goes to one hundred Buddhafields; one hundred world realms are made to appear; one thoroughly ripens one hundred sentient beings; one lives for one hundred eons; one enters the upper and lower limits of the one hundred eons; one opens one hundred doors of dharma; one teaches in one hundred bodies; also each body teaches a retinue having a hundred Bodhisattvas..."

I think most Tibetans would imagine that the person above was a fully awakened Buddha, and not a mere first stage bodhisattva.

N

And if an 8th level Bodhisattva teacher has many students that break their samaya in serious ways, this will not affect the teacher at all, not even the appearance of the teacher?

"It is taught in the Sutra of the Ten Stages that because of being born for an instant, one hundred twelve qualities are attained; one hundred samadhis are attained, in that equipoise, one sees one hundred Buddhas; one understand their blessings; one shakes one hundred world realms; one goes to one hundred Buddhafields; one hundred world realms are made to appear; one thoroughly ripens one hundred sentient beings; one lives for one hundred eons; one enters the upper and lower limits of the one hundred eons; one opens one hundred doors of dharma; one teaches in one hundred bodies; also each body teaches a retinue having a hundred Bodhisattvas..."

I think most Tibetans would imagine that the person above was a fully awakened Buddha, and not a mere first stage bodhisattva.

N

Do you read that completely literally, as opposed to inspirational-poetic? I know that you appear to take the assigned qualities of scripture with a grain of salt or you would not have remarked recently

Never met an omniscient master yet. Omniscience is overrated.

And aren't there different descriptions of the Bhumis from different masters? Patrul Rinpoche differentiates the first Bhumi of the lesser stage, the intermediate stage and the greater stage path of accumulation:

1. The Path of Accumulation

On the path of accumulation, the bodhisattvas, or ‘heirs of the victorious ones’, generate positive intention and bodhichitta in both aspiration and action. Having thoroughly developed this relative bodhichitta, they aspire towards the ultimate bodhichitta, the non-conceptual wisdom of the path of seeing. This is known, therefore, as the stage of ‘aspirational practice’.

It is called the path of accumulation because it is the stage at which we make a special effort to gather the accumulation of merit, and also because it marks the beginning of many incalculable aeons of gathering the accumulations.

The path of accumulation is divided into lesser, intermediate and greater stages.

On the lesser stage of the path of accumulation, it is uncertain when we will reach the path of joining. On the intermediate stage of the path of accumulation, it is certain that we will reach the path of joining in the very next lifetime. On the greater stage of the path of accumulation, it is certain that we will reach the path of joining within the very same lifetime.

The Lesser Stage

The root text says:

The applications of mindfulness… may we engage….!

This indicates that on the lesser stage of the path of accumulation, we meditate mainly on the four applications of mindfulness.

Firstly, there is the application of mindfulness to the body (1).[1] In this meditation, the outer ‘body’ is understood to be the outer physical environment, the inner body is our own physical body, and ‘in between’ there are the bodies of other sentient beings. We examine these three with precise intelligence, and rest, with meditative concentration, in the recognition that ultimately they are unreal and their nature is space-like emptiness. During the post-meditation, we train in recognizing them as illusory and dream-like.

This practice is especially useful as an antidote to physical desire. We can consider that this body contains all kinds of impure substances like blood and pus, and that it plays host to the 404 types of disease or the 60,000 harmful influences (dön), as well as all kinds of bacteria and tiny organisms. We can also consider how, once we have died, the body will decay, become a skeleton and so on.

Secondly, for the application of mindfulness to feelings (2), we examine pleasurable, painful and neutral feelings with precise intelligence, and rest in a state of meditation, recognizing feelings to be unarisen and beyond arising. During the post-meditation phase, we train in recognizing that all feelings are insubstantial, like a plantain tree, and that they are suffering by their very nature.

Thirdly, for the application of mindfulness to mind (3), we use precise intelligence to investigate greater, lesser and intermediate types of perception, and then we rest in meditation upon their emptiness nature. During the post-meditation, we must understand the nature of the mind to be beyond ceasing and beyond remaining.

Fourthly, with the application of mindfulness to phenomena (4), we use the precise intelligence of discernment to analyze all phenomena included within the category of formations, and then settle in the recognition of their nature, which is equality. During the post-meditation, we recognize how all phenomena resemble the eight similes of illusion: they are like a dream, a magical illusion, a mirage, a hallucination, a reflection, an echo, a city of gandharvas or an apparition.

Moreover, in the first case, the body is the object to be analyzed with precise intelligence, but once this so-called ‘body’ has been thoroughly investigated and any notion of its true reality has been destroyed, the ensuing space-like emptiness becomes the true object for the application of mindfulness. It is just the same with the other three. The practices of the four applications of mindfulness each have their own objects of focus, but in essence they all consist of the space-like meditation and the illusory post-meditation. There is no aspect of them which is not included in these two.

The Intermediate Stage

On the intermediate stage of the path of accumulation, we chiefly practise the four correct abandonments.

This means that we strive, first of all, to ensure that we do not develop any non-virtuous tendencies (5) that we have not previously developed.

Secondly, we swiftly eliminate any non-virtuous tendencies (6) that we have developed.

Thirdly, we cultivate any virtuous tendencies (7) that we have not yet developed.

And fourthly, we ensure the virtues we have cultivated are further increased (8).

These are known as the four correct abandonments because we abandon all non-virtues and whatever obstructs the cultivation of virtue. They mainly concern our conduct, whether through body, speech or mind.

The Greater Stage

On the greater stage of the path of accumulation, we practise the four supports of miraculous ability:

The first of these is the 'miracle support' of determination (9), which is to meditate with enthusiasm and aspiration towards meditative concentration, so that the mind does not stray into lack of faith or wrong views.

The second, the miracle support of exertion (10), is to apply ourselves with diligence to the practice of meditative concentration, and to exert ourselves in both eliminating any faults or obstacles, and in cultivating the necessary qualities, so that we remain unaffected by temporary circumstances.

The third is the miracle support of attention (11), which ensures that we remain in a state of one-pointed attention, thus avoiding the divided attention that is caught between various thoughts and distracting influences. Through this, we realize actual meditative concentration.

Fourth, the miracle support of discernment (12), helps us sustain meditative concentration during daily activity, as a way of gaining the miraculous powers, such as the superknowledges.

These four are called ‘supports’ because they support the meditative concentration out of which a range of miraculous attainments can arise.

By manifesting various miraculous powers on the greater path of accumulation, we can travel miraculously to the fields where buddhas actually reside. There, we can receive and master countless hundreds and thousands of Dharma teachings. Bodhisattvas who do this gain continuous meditative concentration which they are able to maintain through the strength of their wisdom.

Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

Adamantine wrote:
And aren't there different descriptions of the Bhumis from different masters? Patrul Rinpoche differentiates the first Bhumi of the lesser stage, the intermediate stage and the greater stage path of accumulation:

1. The Path of Accumulation
.....

Adamantine - what you quoted concerns the Path of Accumulation. This is the beginning accumulation of merit and wisdom - it is well-below the 1st bhumi and addresses how ordinary beings progress at the "beginning" stage while they are primarily accumulating merit and wisdom. The 1st bhumi results/powers that Namdrol posted is the first stage on the bhumis and is treated as it's own Path - the Path of Seeing. The five paths in this scheme are: Path of Accumulation, Path of Joining (which has four levels each with three levels of attainment), Path of Seeing (1st bhumi), Path of Meditation (2nd-10th bhumis), and the Path of No-More Learning (Mahayana Buddhahood).

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

Adamantine wrote:
And aren't there different descriptions of the Bhumis from different masters?

Yes but they are mostly the same. I'd like to see a description of a 1st bhumi Bodhisattva from Kagyu sources because they are famous for developing the theory of the sun slowing heating a vast field of snow, etc. directly addressing why miraculous powers do not seem to manifest.

Adamantine wrote:

Namdrol wrote:
Sapan writes:

"It is taught in the Sutra of the Ten Stages that because of being born for an instant, one hundred twelve qualities are attained; one hundred samadhis are attained, in that equipoise, one sees one hundred Buddhas; one understand their blessings; one shakes one hundred world realms; one goes to one hundred Buddhafields; one hundred world realms are made to appear; one thoroughly ripens one hundred sentient beings; one lives for one hundred eons; one enters the upper and lower limits of the one hundred eons; one opens one hundred doors of dharma; one teaches in one hundred bodies; also each body teaches a retinue having a hundred Bodhisattvas..."

I think most Tibetans would imagine that the person above was a fully awakened Buddha, and not a mere first stage bodhisattva.

N

I wonder if Sapan meant that literally and in all cases. For example in the Sravakayana Arhats could be dry or wet according to whether they manifested miraculous powers or not. Same with Praetyakabuddhas. This description, recited literally during Sakya teaching on the bhumi's always struck me as a bridge too far if meant literally. It may be bound up with the Sakya tendency to play down any kind of attainment because in comparison all attainment in the physical body will be minimal (unless we really do manifest 100 bodies, etc).

As Lama Tsongkhapa said overcoming 1 negative emotion is already a greater miracle than walking on the ceiling.

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

Now, now - the form tells us nothing. I'm not seeing Chakrasamvara above this guy's head in the photo. He looks like a Mahasiddha because many of the Mahasiddha's adopted that life. But there are, what, millions of sadhu's in the Indian subcontinent and relatively few Buddhists and most of them aren't leading the sadhu life.

However I agree that that spirit will be the heart of Tibetan Buddhism esp. in the West going forward.

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

Adamantine wrote:
And aren't there different descriptions of the Bhumis from different masters? Patrul Rinpoche differentiates the first Bhumi of the lesser stage, the intermediate stage and the greater stage path of accumulation:

1. The Path of Accumulation
.....

Adamantine - what you quoted concerns the Path of Accumulation. This is the beginning accumulation of merit and wisdom - it is well-below the 1st bhumi and addresses how ordinary beings progress at the "beginning" stage while they are primarily accumulating merit and wisdom. The 1st bhumi results/powers that Namdrol posted is the first stage on the bhumis and is treated as it's own Path - the Path of Seeing. The five paths in this scheme are: Path of Accumulation, Path of Joining (which has four levels each with three levels of attainment), Path of Seeing (1st bhumi), Path of Meditation (2nd-10th bhumis), and the Path of No-More Learning (Mahayana Buddhahood).

Kirt

Ah yeah, my bad-- later in the text it has a similar quote to Namdrol's of Sapan regarding first Bhumi or maybe he is quoting Sapan himself:

They are able to:

—enter into and arise from one hundred samadhi meditations in a single instant,

—see one hundred buddhas face to face, and receive their blessings,

—travel to one hundred buddha realms,

—cause one hundred world systems to shake,

—illuminate one hundred world systems,

—bring one hundred beings to complete maturity,

—manifest in one hundred aeons in a single instant,

—know one hundred aeons in the past and

—one hundred aeons in the future,

—open one hundred doors to the Dharma,

—manifest one hundred emanations, and

—for each of these bodies, manifest one hundred attendants.

Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

Yeah but why not refer to an image of a mahasiddha looking Buddhist, rather than a Hindu Baba? Unless you're saying the Buddhist of the west will be Hindus? Or maybe you know something special about that Baba. . .

Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

Adamantine wrote:Yeah but why not refer to an image of a mahasiddha looking Buddhist, rather than a Hindu Baba? Unless you're saying the Buddhist of the west will be Hindus? Or maybe you know something special about that Baba. . .

I am saying that you won't be able to tell whether someone is hindu, buddhist, or whatever.

Adamantine wrote:Yeah but why not refer to an image of a mahasiddha looking Buddhist, rather than a Hindu Baba? Unless you're saying the Buddhist of the west will be Hindus? Or maybe you know something special about that Baba. . .

I am saying that you won't be able to tell whether someone is hindu, buddhist, or whatever.

Well I would say that's already the case since most western Dharma practitioners dress in normal western clothes...

It would be weird if they started dressing like Sadhu babas though

Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

I guess the problem is not recognizing tulkus or reincarnations (useful distinction Namdrol-la) in order to give them a proper upbringing and training. The problem comes when these recognition are made public, implying spiritual attainments that they don't clearly have and also involve money, property, revenues, politics and what not. This is what messes the system. IMO, it should end. Tulkus can be recognized, privately for matters of training. Nothing more, nothing less.

Now, if someone want's to be recognized publicly as a bodhisattva in the bhumis, with all that it entails, then he should be able to demonstrate on request that he is so, not tacitly letting others to believe it when he himself is not sure of that. If someone doesn't know for sure he is a nirmanakaya, then he can know for sure he isn't.

Adamantine wrote:Well considering the tall list of attainments that a first level Bhumi is supposed to bestow, is there really any teacher out there today that could be pointed to as showing
these qualities?

cause one hundred world systems to shake,

—illuminate one hundred world systems,

—manifest in one hundred aeons in a single instant,

—know one hundred aeons in the past and

—one hundred aeons in the future,

—manifest one hundred emanations,

And if they had these abilities would they really be advertising them publicly? What is the benefit of shaking world systems anyways? Is this really meant to be literal?

The list is taken from the Avatamsaka Sutra (- so really, we're supposed to live up to the Avatamsaka Sutra literally?). Shaking one hundred world systems and illuminating a hundred world systems refers to wisdom attainment and can also refer to one hundred rebirths at the level of the 1st bhumi. So it depends on how this sutra was actually intended.

We have hundreds of homeless people in DC (and in this Depression I may become one of them). A more relevant siddhi would be to be able to house and feed and provide employment for all these people. That would be a good one.

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

kirtu wrote:
Shaking one hundred world systems and illuminating a hundred world systems refers to wisdom attainment and can also refer to one hundred rebirths at the level of the 1st bhumi. So it depends on how this sutra was actually intended.

According to Mahasiddha Virupa, it means in one's lifetime, not in one hundred lifetimes.

kirtu wrote:
Shaking one hundred world systems and illuminating a hundred world systems refers to wisdom attainment and can also refer to one hundred rebirths at the level of the 1st bhumi. So it depends on how this sutra was actually intended.

According to Mahasiddha Virupa, it means in one's lifetime, not in one hundred lifetimes.

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.