So, by your logic, because a small, tweener wasn't available, we should have just done nothing? BRILLIANT!!!

Nope. Look, it's pretty clear we want two backs: one speedier for screens and such (should've been Best) and one who's more of a power back, but still versatile. The latter is of course going to be Leshoure, who we now know will be able to come back and play at a high level. He's only suspended for two games; does it make sense to you to bring in an expensive free agent or make a big trade to fill a hole that's actually not a hole?

Man i hope you are right, but it's going to take more than a quarter of ONE preseason game for me to say I know he can play at a high level. So far I remain unimpressed....

_________________2013 Lionbacker Fantasy Football Champion

September 6th, 2012, 8:20 am

m2karateman

RIP Killer

Joined: October 20th, 2004, 4:16 pmPosts: 10408Location: Where ever I'm at now

Re: Trade Thread

I like how some of you define "Best's role in this offense", even though his role has never been what you are describing.

Jahvid Best was drafted to be our starting running back, not the third down back. Not the change of pace, throw it to him back. He was drafted to be the starting running back. That was his role, and it has been his role.

That all "changed" because of his concussions. We still don't know exactly what Schwartz/Linehan will do with him once/if he returns to play. Will LeShoure be the full time back? That's something we still don't know. LeShoure was drafted to be a power back, one that could wear down defenses and help us with late game ball control. We still don't know if he can do that. But many of you speak as if that portion of our offense is a lock. Love your confidence, but you need a dose of reality.

And, you know....there's this kid by the name of Stefan Logan on our roster. He's the one that the team is relying on to be our change of pace, scamper and screen type, running back. Forgot about him, didn't you?

So those of you saying we need a quick, 3rd down back....well, we have that. Those of you saying we don't need a power back....well, we don't know if we have that or not. Smith isn't it. Keiland Williams hasn't shown us that ability. Joique Bell? He probably won't even be active on most game days, and will likely be the one that the team releases when LeShoure's suspension is up. And in my opinion, that's a shame, because he was our best RB this pre-season, and showed the ability to be a power back, a receiver and did pretty decent as a pass blocker. And like I said before, we still don't know just how good LeShoure is....or if he will even stay healthy.

But by all means....let's worry about filling roles rather than just adding talent, regardless of their "role".

_________________I will not put on blinders when it comes to our QBs performances.

M2K, You've pointed out an erroneous description of "Best's role," an opinion to which you are entitled. However, you're describing your understanding of his role in the vaguest possible way: "starting running back." What does "starting running back" mean? Are you suggesting that Best was drafted to be Adrian Peterson or Ray Rice? The kind of player who never comes off the field? That could be true, in theory, but Linehan has never attempted to get Best 20+ carries per game, so that sure seems unlikely to me.

Again, I'm not sure what you mean by "starting running back" so perhaps you can clarify precisely what that means, and how you've seen the Lions attempt to use Best in that way. I don't claim to be an authority--I'm just describing my perception of what I've seen. For example, Best's role certainly isn't "about" being a receiver but I'm confident it is part of his role. Stats don't tell the whole story, of course, but Best was on pace for 72 receptions last year before the concussion vs. SF. That's more catches than either Greg Jennings or Jordy Nelson had last year, by the way.

Personally, I define Best's "role in the offense" by how they've actually used him, not by how I thought he might be used. I'm not suggesting that this is how things "ought" to be done or how Best would be "ideally" utilized. I'm simply describing what I've seen. What I see is Linehan using Best to create mismatches, then really exploiting those mismatches in the no-huddle, where the defense can't change personnel. What do you see?

_________________Proud member of the Contract Extension for Schwartz Fan Club.

September 6th, 2012, 1:02 pm

m2karateman

RIP Killer

Joined: October 20th, 2004, 4:16 pmPosts: 10408Location: Where ever I'm at now

Re: Trade Thread

mwill2 wrote:

M2K, You've pointed out an erroneous description of "Best's role," an opinion to which you are entitled. However, you're describing your understanding of his role in the vaguest possible way: "starting running back." What does "starting running back" mean? Are you suggesting that Best was drafted to be Adrian Peterson or Ray Rice? The kind of player who never comes off the field? That could be true, in theory, but Linehan has never attempted to get Best 20+ carries per game, so that sure seems unlikely to me.

Couple things mwill. When Best was drafted, Schwartz was very clear in saying that he didn't consider him a role player, but considered him a three down back, not a third down back.

Secondly, with the Lions playing through 2-14 and 6-10 seasons, that meant the team was constantly coming from behind. What team do you know of that continues to run the ball despite being down for a goodly part of the game? Our running game has been stagnant for multiple seasons. You use what works, and the running game hasn't for some time. Calvin is what works, and it's been that way since he got here.

If you consider all that, then you'll understand why Best doesn't see 20 carries per game. In fact, it wasn't about carries, but about touches for Best. They knew putting him outside for screens and flares would work well due to his speed. Since he's been here Best has had only one game over 100 yards (against Chicago last year). And even then, he only carried the Ball 12 times. In games in which Best participated, he was the one getting the bulk of the carries.

So, he wasn't brought here as a third down back, or a "role" player. He was brought here to be a running back in Linehan's system...which wasn't really a RBC.

mwill2 wrote:

Again, I'm not sure what you mean by "starting running back" so perhaps you can clarify precisely what that means, and how you've seen the Lions attempt to use Best in that way. I don't claim to be an authority--I'm just describing my perception of what I've seen. For example, Best's role certainly isn't "about" being a receiver but I'm confident it is part of his role. Stats don't tell the whole story, of course, but Best was on pace for 72 receptions last year before the concussion vs. SF. That's more catches than either Greg Jennings or Jordy Nelson had last year, by the way.

What I mean by starting running back is the back who will get the bulk of the carries, as I spoke of above. Part of being a running back is catching passes. Some are better at it than others. It doesn't make them any less of a running back. When Best got here the idea was to get him the ball, either through the air or through handoffs.

Would you consider Marshall Faulk or LaDainian Tomlinson part time backs with the teams they played for? There were times when they led their teams in receptions as well. Were they "role" players too?

mwill2 wrote:

Personally, I define Best's "role in the offense" by how they've actually used him, not by how I thought he might be used. I'm not suggesting that this is how things "ought" to be done or how Best would be "ideally" utilized. I'm simply describing what I've seen. What I see is Linehan using Best to create mismatches, then really exploiting those mismatches in the no-huddle, where the defense can't change personnel. What do you see?

I define his role not by HOW they used him, but by HOW MUCH they used him. When he was in games, he received the bulk of the snaps at RB, and the bulk of the carries when he was healthy. Maurice Morris was used VERY infrequently when he was the main backup to Best. A role player, in my definition, would be a back that is used for very specific purposes. One who comes in for third downs because they can catch the ball better than the other running back, whose role it is to be the bellcow, carry the load back to gain rushing yards. Or perhaps a back that can pass block better than the others, but can also catch the ball on third downs, so that's who is used.

Best's role was to be the running back in Linehan's offense, period. He wasn't defined any other way than that by the coaching staff. So when people say we need a "speed" back to fill his "role" in this offense, I find it ridiculous.

We need a talented back that can stay healthy. I don't care if he runs a 40 in 4.2 or 4.7 seconds.

_________________I will not put on blinders when it comes to our QBs performances.

Jim Schwartz, the bright coach of the Detroit Lions, made an interesting post-draft comment explaining why the Lions selected Illinois running back Mikel Leshoure in the second round.

Leshoure will become the Lions' big back, a 6-foot, 227-pound rusher. His selection came a year after the Lions used a first-round pick on Jahvid Best, who's explosive and quick at 5-10 and 199 pounds. Schwartz's explanation is another illustration of how the running back position is evolving.

"There's a lot of different things that happen in our division," Schwartz told Lions reporters after the draft. "We see a 4-3 team like the Chicago Bears. We see a 3-4 team like the Green Bay Packers.

"That's a different style of running back. You play 3-4 teams that are two-gapping, you need a big back who can run through some arm tackles. You want to get guys matched up on different teams, you need guys who can match up and beat linebackers and people that want to play man and trick coverage up for a certain player"...http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/s ... id=6539561

When Jim Schwartz was the defensive coordinator in Tennessee, he saw how LenDale White was often used effectively in tandem with Chris Johnson.

Johnson was the lead back and would play most of the game. If the team had a lead in the fourth quarter, White would often finish off the game to save Johnson wear and tear. It sounds like he has the same idea when it comes to Jahvid Best and this year’s second round pick Mikel Leshoure.

“Jahvid Best, when healthy, proved that he can be an explosive playmaker,” Schwartz said on the radio Tuesday via the Detroit News. “But he isn’t built to be a short-yardage back when there’s three minutes left in the game and you’re protecting a seven-point lead, but Leshoure is.”

So Best’s job is to make big plays, and Leshoure’s job is to close. (He gets coffee.) Best, like Matthew Stafford, needs to show he can stay healthy for a full season after turf toe slowed him down throughout 2010.

If both Best and Stafford are healthy, the Lions offense could be scary.

_________________"Good teams don't worry about a whole lot of stuff. They travel, they play, they win. And it doesn't matter where they go, what the time block is, all those kinds of things. They never seem to bother teams that play well, and we want to be one of those teams." -Jim Caldwell

September 7th, 2012, 9:24 am

m2karateman

RIP Killer

Joined: October 20th, 2004, 4:16 pmPosts: 10408Location: Where ever I'm at now

Re: Trade Thread

Nice posts Lomas, but what's your point?

This is mine...what do we have with LeShoure? WE. DON'T. KNOW.

The only role we've seen in this offense for Best is that of the running back for the entire game. We haven't seen Best and LeShoure on the field simultaneously during a game to see exactly what kind of combination they would make. Both have struggled with injuries, and quite frankly LeShoure wasn't all that impressive in his limited touches this pre-season.

Quite frankly, I'd prefer a healthy single back that can grind out yardage over two backs who have serious health issues. Big, bruising backs can be playmakers too. Whatever it was the Schwartz had intended to do with the LeShoure/Best combination went up in smoke when Mikel blew out his Achilles last year.

_________________I will not put on blinders when it comes to our QBs performances.

September 7th, 2012, 9:44 am

thelomasbrowns

Player of the Year - Offense

Joined: August 24th, 2010, 9:54 pmPosts: 2875

Re: Trade Thread

m2karateman wrote:

Nice posts Lomas, but what's your point?

This is mine...what do we have with LeShoure? WE. DON'T. KNOW.

The only role we've seen in this offense for Best is that of the running back for the entire game. We haven't seen Best and LeShoure on the field simultaneously during a game to see exactly what kind of combination they would make. Both have struggled with injuries, and quite frankly LeShoure wasn't all that impressive in his limited touches this pre-season.

Quite frankly, I'd prefer a healthy single back that can grind out yardage over two backs who have serious health issues. Big, bruising backs can be playmakers too. Whatever it was the Schwartz had intended to do with the LeShoure/Best combination went up in smoke when Mikel blew out his Achilles last year.

I agree with you on pretty much everything. I came up watching Barry Sanders be an every-down back (and then some), and ever since he retired, I've hoped the Lions would draft his replacement.

But back to the matter at hand: I think it's important to look at what Schwartz intended to do because I'm assuming that's still their ultimate goal. My understanding of the situation is that we used Best as an every down back his first year because we didn't have the compliment for him we were looking for, hence the drafting of LeShoure. I know LeShoure's future is still up in the air, but I would give him some time to see what we actually have with him.

_________________"Good teams don't worry about a whole lot of stuff. They travel, they play, they win. And it doesn't matter where they go, what the time block is, all those kinds of things. They never seem to bother teams that play well, and we want to be one of those teams." -Jim Caldwell

September 7th, 2012, 10:29 am

m2karateman

RIP Killer

Joined: October 20th, 2004, 4:16 pmPosts: 10408Location: Where ever I'm at now

Re: Trade Thread

thelomasbrowns wrote:

m2karateman wrote:

Nice posts Lomas, but what's your point?

This is mine...what do we have with LeShoure? WE. DON'T. KNOW.

The only role we've seen in this offense for Best is that of the running back for the entire game. We haven't seen Best and LeShoure on the field simultaneously during a game to see exactly what kind of combination they would make. Both have struggled with injuries, and quite frankly LeShoure wasn't all that impressive in his limited touches this pre-season.

Quite frankly, I'd prefer a healthy single back that can grind out yardage over two backs who have serious health issues. Big, bruising backs can be playmakers too. Whatever it was the Schwartz had intended to do with the LeShoure/Best combination went up in smoke when Mikel blew out his Achilles last year.

I agree with you on pretty much everything. I came up watching Barry Sanders be an every-down back (and then some), and ever since he retired, I've hoped the Lions would draft his replacement.

But back to the matter at hand: I think it's important to look at what Schwartz intended to do because I'm assuming that's still their ultimate goal. My understanding of the situation is that we used Best as an every down back his first year because we didn't have the compliment for him we were looking for, hence the drafting of LeShoure. I know LeShoure's future is still up in the air, but I would give him some time to see what we actually have with him.

You are correct. When we drafted Best, it was to be our every down back. But, after his injury issues his rookie season, along with him not being able to "move the pile" at the goal line, or be able to grind out tough yards late in the game, the front office went after their goal line/short yardage/grinder style back in LeShoure. And it was a move I fully endorsed. However, that two headed monster never came about, and Best's role in the offense remained as the every down back.

So, without knowing what we have in LeShoure, the ONLY role Best has had in this offense has been our starting/every down running back. To say that we should get a small, quick back to "fill Best's role" is not the idea the Lions coaches had for Best from day one.

What makes me laugh is the idea that we should have three backs on the roster, all with different "roles" or physical make ups. Look at the Dallas Cowboys right now. DeMarco Murray and Felix Jones are nearly identical. They let Marion Barber go, despite the fact that he would have been the "thunder" to Jones or Murray's "lightning". Instead, the Cowboys properly decided to keep the two best talents...regardless of whether they compliment each other physically.

It's true that some teams have that combination, like DeAngelo Williams and Jonathan Stewart in Carolina. But it doesn't HAVE to be that way, although by the way some of the people on here are talking, that is EXACTLY what needs to happen. It's one of the reasons why some folks were completely against the Lions drafting LaMichael James this year. "He's too much like Best" or "We have a running back like that already" were common statements.

Talent folks. You win with talent. It doesn't matter if the guy is built like a bowling bowl or runs like a deer. Gather talent, not specific players for specific roles at the same position.

_________________I will not put on blinders when it comes to our QBs performances.

September 7th, 2012, 1:25 pm

thelomasbrowns

Player of the Year - Offense

Joined: August 24th, 2010, 9:54 pmPosts: 2875

Re: Trade Thread

m2karateman wrote:

Talent folks. You win with talent. It doesn't matter if the guy is built like a bowling bowl or runs like a deer. Gather talent, not specific players for specific roles at the same position.

I agree and the front office agrees. Talent rules their drafting strategy. However, they use free agency, waiver wire, and trades to fill holes. I'm all for drafting the most talented people, just not trading for someone or spending on an expensive free agent when there is no hole or if they don't have a clear role in mind.

_________________"Good teams don't worry about a whole lot of stuff. They travel, they play, they win. And it doesn't matter where they go, what the time block is, all those kinds of things. They never seem to bother teams that play well, and we want to be one of those teams." -Jim Caldwell

M2K, thanks for clarifying your stance. Certainly we can interpret the Lions' approach differently and certainly neither of us is going to get the other to change his mind. I respect your civil tone.

I want to set the debate aside to acknowledge, however, that the parts in bold below are assumptions, not verifiable facts:

m2karateman wrote:

You are correct. When we drafted Best, it was to be our every down back]. But, after his injury issues his rookie season, along with him not being able to "move the pile" at the goal line, or be able to grind out tough yards late in the game, the front office went after their goal line/short yardage/grinder style back in LeShoure. And it was a move I fully endorsed. However, that two headed monster never came about, and Best's role in the offense remained as the every down back.

We don't know for sure what Best was drafted to do, nor do we know for sure why the coaches drafted LeShoure. As lomasbrowns suggested, it is possible that Best received the bulk of the carries simply because there wasn't a good complementary back on the roster. It is also possible that acquiring a complementary "power" back was in the plans from the beginning and they simply weren't able to acquire that player until LeShoure was available in the draft. No one outside the front office can say with any certainty how the RB plan unfolded and what they envisioned for Best when he was drafted in 2010.

My point is that we have each developed very different assumptions about why Best and LeShoure were acquired. Neither of us can know for sure if we are right. I appreciate, however, that you at least bring some evidence to the table so your opinions are grounded in common sense.

_________________Proud member of the Contract Extension for Schwartz Fan Club.

September 7th, 2012, 4:10 pm

Pablo

RIP Killer

Joined: August 6th, 2004, 9:21 amPosts: 10041Location: Dallas

Re: Trade Thread

Given his days in Tenn I think Schwartz was looking at Best in a Chris Johnson type roll (they drafted him in the first round of 2008, Jim's last there). LeShoure was the Thunder piece of the puzzle.

Imagine Schwartz salavating at the prospect of having a similar tandem to add to Staff, CJ and company on offense. He knew what fits that would cause DCs.

Schwartz and Mayhew have a philosophy, you win with talent on offense and scheme on defense. Our draft picks tend to bear this out. Many of you will continue to scream to plug holes, especially in the secondary, but that isn't how things are shaping up around here.

Imagine Schwartz salavating at the prospect of having a similar tandem to add to Staff, CJ and company on offense. He knew what fits that would cause DCs.

Schwartz and Mayhew have a philosophy, you win with talent on offense and scheme on defense. Our draft picks tend to bear this out. Many of you will continue to scream to plug holes, especially in the secondary, but that isn't how things are shaping up around here.