Created to continue a discussion from What EU Book are You Reading Now thread.

For Crash Override's last comment, I would place blame on Anakin for turning on Centerpoint Station since he was the only known person capable of doing it. But I can understand his hesitation and resistance to firing the station. Conquest would be my prime example of Anakin's hesitation being strengthened. Of course, if the fleet had been eliminated, then that may also have opened up the Yuuzhan Vong for more discussion. They only believed the galaxy was handed to them from their gods and once enough resistance got them doubting, then they'd be less sure of conquest.

War is hard to place rights and wrongs on, but for how the rebels beat the Empire, Yuuzhan Vong beat the New Republic, and how the GFFA beat the Yuuzhan Vong is all from the controlling force being stretched too thin. Always good strategy to give enough for enemy to strangle themselves with._________________"Changes are nice--but so is continuity!"

"Then you saved my life. How disgusting. How unfortunate."
"No, don't gush on so. It was nothing, really."

Last edited by Aush on Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:00 pm; edited 1 time in total

Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 7:59 pm

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AushAdministrator

Joined: 12 Nov 2007Posts: 980Location: Midwest, USA

And let me clarify rights and wrongs: morale dilemmas and few over many arguments._________________"Changes are nice--but so is continuity!"

"Then you saved my life. How disgusting. How unfortunate."
"No, don't gush on so. It was nothing, really."

Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:30 pm

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TeckKnight

Joined: 25 Jun 2011Posts: 121

Of course Centerpoint was activated in order to make an interdiction field to trap the Vong at Corella. Even if he fired it, would it really be wrong. They weren't trying to destroy a planet or star, they were just using it as a really, really big gun against a military target, the enemy fleet. If it is wrong, were does the line fall that the power of a weapon becomes immorally powerful? Is it wrong if it kills 1000 enemy warships? 500? 100? 50? 20? 10? 5? 2? Were is the line that says that it is OK to fire this big of a gun at the enemy but not this sightly bigger gun?
And the firing of Centerpoint occurred in Jedi Eclipse, not conquest._________________"Everyone gets a nasty surprise someday. I'd rather get it standing up than lying down."
-Anakin Solo

Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:33 pm

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Crash OverrideMaster

Joined: 22 Dec 2010Posts: 1962

Teck wrote:

Of course Centerpoint was activated in order to make an interdiction field to trap the Vong at Corella. Even if he fired it, would it really be wrong. They weren't trying to destroy a planet or star, they were just using it as a really, really big gun against a military target, the enemy fleet. If it is wrong, were does the line fall that the power of a weapon becomes immorally powerful? Is it wrong if it kills 1000 enemy warships? 500? 100? 50? 20? 10? 5? 2? Were is the line that says that it is OK to fire this big of a gun at the enemy but not this sightly bigger gun?
And the firing of Centerpoint occurred in Jedi Eclipse, not conquest.

The reason why it's wrong is because if the New Republic had Centerpoint Station at its disposal with Anakin able to fire it at will and preclude any friendly fire or collateral damage, the outcome of the war would have been the complete annihilation of the Yuuzhan Vong and their slave species.

Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 1:53 pm

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Lord Ree'diusMaster

Joined: 11 Apr 2011Posts: 700Location: The Unknown Regions

Crash Override wrote:

Teck wrote:

Of course Centerpoint was activated in order to make an interdiction field to trap the Vong at Corella. Even if he fired it, would it really be wrong. They weren't trying to destroy a planet or star, they were just using it as a really, really big gun against a military target, the enemy fleet. If it is wrong, were does the line fall that the power of a weapon becomes immorally powerful? Is it wrong if it kills 1000 enemy warships? 500? 100? 50? 20? 10? 5? 2? Were is the line that says that it is OK to fire this big of a gun at the enemy but not this sightly bigger gun?
And the firing of Centerpoint occurred in Jedi Eclipse, not conquest.

The reason why it's wrong is because if the New Republic had Centerpoint Station at its disposal with Anakin able to fire it at will and preclude any friendly fire or collateral damage, the outcome of the war would have been the complete annihilation of the Yuuzhan Vong and their slave species.

I can't agree with that. Why would Anakin annihilate all Vong. He could have just fired it at the battle of Fondor and that would have made the Vong think twice.
I think he should have and probably would have if it weren't for Jacen and his "better than thou"- attitude. It would just have been protecting his own people against an unreasoning enemy, not something evil._________________"Strong you are with the dark side, young one. But not that strong.
Still much to learn, you have. Surrender, you should."

"You're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."

Personally I think Anakin should have pulled the trigger. That was a combat situation and he would have been completely in the right to wipe out that Vong fleet with Centerpoint Station. Having not done it, many innocent livers were lost as Sal Solo mangled the shot and wiped out half the Hapans.

With Centerpoint, many many many lives could have been saved. By the end of the war, most of the Vong warriors probably died anyways in suicide attacks._________________
"I believe toys resonate with us as humans, we can hold them, it's tactile, real! They are totems for our extended beliefs and imaginations. A fetish for ideas that hold as much interest and passion as old religious relics for some. We display them in our homes. They show who we are. They are signals for similar thinking people. A way we connect with each other...and I guess thats why I do toys. That connection." -Ashley Wood

Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:38 pm

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Crash OverrideMaster

Joined: 22 Dec 2010Posts: 1962

It's a slippery slope. If Thrackan didn't disable it when he fired it, the desire to fire it again would have arisen again and again. And there's no evidence that Anakin was correct that he could have surgically eliminated the Yuuzhan Vong fleet while leaving the Hapan fleet unscathed. He only thought he could.

Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:46 pm

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NedaraKnight

Joined: 08 Apr 2011Posts: 396

But sometimes Jedi decide to put innocent people in danger in order to achieve a bigger end. So, why shouldn't Anakin have done it?

Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:15 pm

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TeckKnight

Joined: 25 Jun 2011Posts: 121

But whatever happened that disabled Centerpoint didn't necessarily happen because of who fired it. It could have just been a mechanical problem with a one million year old space station._________________"Everyone gets a nasty surprise someday. I'd rather get it standing up than lying down."
-Anakin Solo

Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:52 pm

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Crash OverrideMaster

Joined: 22 Dec 2010Posts: 1962

Teck wrote:

But whatever happened that disabled Centerpoint didn't necessarily happen because of who fired it. It could have just been a mechanical problem with a one million year old space station.

I'm going off of summaries and my memory, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought it was made clear that the reason why Centerpoint shut back down was because Anakin was not the one that used it. This is the whole reason why Anakin Sal-Solo was created later on. And I don't think that the possibility that Anakin firing Centerpoint could possibly shut it down and preclude further use is legitimate argument for using it once. It's a slippery slope.

The other thing that I just remembered was that there was no expectation that the Yuuzhan Vong would attack Fondor, but that it was expected that they would attack either Bothawui or Corellia, with the latter intentionally being undefended in order to encourage it as a target with the subsequent use of Centerpoint's interdiction field to trap the attacking fleet.

Thus, there was never an intention to use Centerpoint as a weapon and Anakin and Jacen were present under the expectation of an attack there and Anakin was needed to activate the interdiction field. The power afforded by Centerpoint to destroy the Yuuzhan Vong fleet was not something that was considered before the attack, and given that it's something that's still debated here and elsewhere, I don't think that given the circumstances an informed and responsible decision about whether to use it or not could be made in the heat of battle, as it were.

Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 9:54 am

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Darth SkuldrenModerator

Joined: 04 Feb 2008Posts: 6916Location: Missouri

I don't think that "the heat of battle" is a good excuse. A good leader has to be able to make decisions on the fly utilizing the knowledge and intelligence they have on hand. Anakin decided against firing Centerpoint because of the pacifist opinions of Jacen who'd been nagging him for several books about how the Jedi should be hesitant to be warriors and aggressors.

Now I'm not saying Anakin was completely in the wrong, but he was definitely partially in the wrong. He may not have been able to see that Sal Solo would momentarily be killing thousands of innocent Hapans, but he should have known that taking out a Vong fleet would save lives. That was the short term picture he should have been considering. Instead of utilizing Centerpoint, he left it up to everyone else to deal with the problem and to spend their lives in stopping the Vong._________________
"I believe toys resonate with us as humans, we can hold them, it's tactile, real! They are totems for our extended beliefs and imaginations. A fetish for ideas that hold as much interest and passion as old religious relics for some. We display them in our homes. They show who we are. They are signals for similar thinking people. A way we connect with each other...and I guess thats why I do toys. That connection." -Ashley Wood

Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 1:37 pm

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Lord Ree'diusMaster

Joined: 11 Apr 2011Posts: 700Location: The Unknown Regions

Darth Skuldren wrote:

I don't think that "the heat of battle" is a good excuse. A good leader has to be able to make decisions on the fly utilizing the knowledge and intelligence they have on hand. Anakin decided against firing Centerpoint because of the pacifist opinions of Jacen who'd been nagging him for several books about how the Jedi should be hesitant to be warriors and aggressors.

Now I'm not saying Anakin was completely in the wrong, but he was definitely partially in the wrong. He may not have been able to see that Sal Solo would momentarily be killing thousands of innocent Hapans, but he should have known that taking out a Vong fleet would save lives. That was the short term picture he should have been considering. Instead of utilizing Centerpoint, he left it up to everyone else to deal with the problem and to spend their lives in stopping the Vong.

Exactly how I feel about it. Especially about the Jacen nagging part _________________"Strong you are with the dark side, young one. But not that strong.
Still much to learn, you have. Surrender, you should."

"You're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."

I don't think that "the heat of battle" is a good excuse. A good leader has to be able to make decisions on the fly utilizing the knowledge and intelligence they have on hand. Anakin decided against firing Centerpoint because of the pacifist opinions of Jacen who'd been nagging him for several books about how the Jedi should be hesitant to be warriors and aggressors.

Now I'm not saying Anakin was completely in the wrong, but he was definitely partially in the wrong. He may not have been able to see that Sal Solo would momentarily be killing thousands of innocent Hapans, but he should have known that taking out a Vong fleet would save lives. That was the short term picture he should have been considering. Instead of utilizing Centerpoint, he left it up to everyone else to deal with the problem and to spend their lives in stopping the Vong.

Being a good leader is entirely detached from the ethical dilemma of the situation. This isn't a question about the tactical or strategic use of the weapon that the leader needs to make, but of the ethical use, which even a good leader may not be qualified to make considering that it's still being debated ten years later, especially when it's dropped into his lap. Anakin made the right call; that Thrackan fired it afterward shouldn't even be a consideration, and wasn't.

The only reason I said it was on Anakin and not Jacen is if you want to blame someone for firing it. Jacen didn't prevent Anakin from doing it.

Anyway, I need to re-read Jedi Eclipse before commenting further.

Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 7:37 am

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DancelittleewokEUC Staff

Joined: 15 Sep 2010Posts: 1215Location: Kansas

Reviving this thread to discuss about what coulda been NJO:

Quote:

The story arc was to very closely hew to the myth structure of the Hero’s Journey as outlined by Joseph Campbell, a huge influence on the creation of the Star Wars cinematic story. With that as its basic framework, the plot underwent much evolution and exploration. Its earliest descriptions had Luke Skywalker sending the three Solo children on an epic quest, upon which they encounter a new female character from the invading species sent to infiltrate the galaxy. This unnamed female corrupts Anakin, nearly turning him to the dark side, but she falls in love with him and Anakin instead redeems her. In a fit of intense sibling rivalry, Jacen and Jaina turn on Anakin, and in the resulting conflict, Jacen dies.

That sounds interesting but after re-reading the current NJO state I'm pleased with it. In the last decade it was the best EU we've gotten._________________Perfection is a lifelong pursuit requiring sacrifice. The only way to get it quicker is to sacrifice the most.