Sorry, Joe, FRENCH sources. Nearly all of my references on these threads are French precisely so that people like you can't accuse me of being a mouthpiece for British propaganda. What's more, you know this.

"Both Draghi and Monti spent a few years at Goldman Sachs. Neither of them are "GS men".

Sorry, Joe, once you work for GS, you always work for GS. You don't just leave, as if you were quitting a job at McDonalds.
On this score, see the report by Marc Roche, correspondent of 'Le Monde' in the UK for the past generation. You see, Joe, he is FRENCH. Got that, Joe, FRENCH? "Comment Goldman Sachs dirige le Monde" (book or video). Roche explains just how GS works. While Monti is hanging up in a closet tonight he will be receiving instructions from GS, just like Draghi.

"Finally, it does not "irk me" that the UK has an unelected Head of State...etc".

Well, as I said, I'm sorry about that. How about the 'unelected heads of state' of Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Holland, Luxemburg, Belgium and Spain, most of which have a better record of political stability and democracy than Italy? If the New Zealanders are happy with her, what can YOUR gripe possibly be? Ah! sour grapes, eh? Perhaps because she's so well known?** Anyway, quite frankly, what business is it of yours? Have I ever told you how Italians ought to run their country? That Italy ought to bring back the monarchy?

So the Brits accuse the EU of being "undemocratic". You poor sensitive darlings! Well, of course, it is, isn't it? Do you want me to send you a list of reasons why it is? Denying it would be a bit brass-necked, don't you think? - especially as many who support the EU admit as much themselves.

** but who could nonetheless be removed from her position tomorrow if Parliament so decided.

Sorry, Joe, FRENCH sources. Nearly all of my references on these threads are French precisely so that people like you can't accuse me of being a mouthpiece for British propaganda. What's more, you know this.

"Both Draghi and Monti spent a few years at Goldman Sachs. Neither of them are "GS men".

Sorry, Joe, once you work for GS, you always work for GS. You don't just leave, as if you were quitting a job at McDonalds.
On this score, see the report by Marc Roche, correspondent of 'Le Monde' in the UK for the past generation. You see, Joe, he is FRENCH. Got that, Joe, FRENCH. "Comment Goldman Sachs dirige le Monde" (book or video). Roche explains just how GS works. While Monti is hanging up in his closet tonight he will be receiving instructions from GS, just like Draghi.

"Finally, it does not "irk me" that the UK has an unelected Head of State...etc".

Well, as I said, I'm sorry about that. How about Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Holland, Luxemburg, Belgium and Spain, most of which have a better record of political stability and democracy than Italy? If the New Zealanders are happy with her, what can YOUR gripe possobly be? Ah! sour grapes, eh? Perhaps because she's so well known? Anyway, quite frankly, what busines is it of yours? Have I ever told you how Italians ought to run their country?

So the Brits accuse the EU of being "undemocratic". Well, fancy that! but then of course, it is, isn't it? Do you want me to send you a list of reasons why? Denying it would be a bit brass-necked, don't you think, especially as many who support the EU admit as much themselves.

@ Joe
I was also wondering how your Alice in Wonderland “Graeco/Latin” ’European defence force’ was going to work. You said Cyprus, Malta, Italy, Spain (which last saw military action when it bombed its own capital), Portugal and Luxemburg would all create such a force under French leadership, though the French have never expressed the slightest interest in such a mad scheme and wouldn’t touch it with a barge-pole. Can this be the Italians' love affair with Napoleon whom they claim as one of their own? I can think of no other explanation.
Also, with reference to your deleted posting, where you claimed there was ‘a spate of articles in the British press’ reporting British preparations for invading the Continent on the pretext that it was ‘undemocratic’, I would be VERY interested in receiving links and references to this ‘spate of articles’.

Junoir, yeah you did have me thinking on that one, although I'd already thought about it before (Portugal being an island that is)
What I think is that this unnatural alliance with Europe, as it is for Portugal, has reached proportions which should be sorted in the long run, or else, what I was saying about trading with non-Europeans (or living with our back turned against the continent, as we say in Portugal) will start making more sense again.
We played the good student. Now it's time for Europe to acknowledge that and give us the same type of treatment, including special (ie low corporate tax for Brazilian companies, etc.) conditions in the geographical situation we're in..
ps:Wonder why the whole thread on Portugal's being the first country to establish diplomatic ties with an independent US was deleted?

Of course the Europeans will continue with compromises on the lowest common level as they have been used since ever-
There will not come a change.
At a certain point not even compromises on the utmost lowest level will help and then each European nation has to decide for itself it they want to leave the sinking ship or f they are preferring to sink by a feeling of solidarity together with the rest.
Watching the newest figures of France and Italy will challenge the rating agencies and we will see how the global money-markets will react.
The possibilities of Europe are coming to an end.
We will see an increasing number of young and jobless people in the PIGS and in France and we will see how long people will accept such a political development.
That things can work rather different , young people can watch for example in Germany.
I wonder how long young people will accept the waffles and promises of their inept political class at home.

Come, come, russianambassador ... things are not as bad as you describe them in Euroland. Unlimited growth is not possible. It has to follow by a period of detraction like ebb follows tide. It is nature's law.

Austerity is part of the healing process and, as we are beginning to see (mark my links in my previous postings) it is beginning to work in Euroland, where it is being exercized in earnest, unlike in US and UK where money is created from thin air, since Austerity is deemed to be the wrong aooroach according to fools like Krugman.

Meantime, in beautiful Russia, one of the leading French actors got a Russian passport? Is this correct? He loves and admires Russia. Tell us, ambassador, about the good sides of glorious Russia, so we may be enticed to open our ears to your siren song.
What, for example, is the average monthly pension of a Russian citizen? How much is a 100m2 Apartment in Moscow overlooking the Kremlin? How much for a bottle of Vodkaja?

You obviously haven't heard the latest. Brigitte Bardot has written to Hollande to tell him that if two elephants, at present in a zoo in Lyon and suffering from tuberculosis, are put to sleep as the zoo authorities wish, than she will follow Depardieu to Russia. Putin has already agreed in principle.

After all the time inside the EU Germany had to make nothing but the worst and most shocking and humiliating experiences.
Without any kind of a reason Germany was participating only for reasons of solidarity in the Afghanistan adventure and while most the so wonderful allies of the US and UK have already left Afghanistan, Germany is standing aside of the US and UK for being ridiculed, fooled and kicked around like retards.
There was never a "Thank you" or much better a "Danke schön" but nothing but tease and mock about the German troops in Afghanistan which never had to do anything over there.
It seems to be a reflex for native ENglish speakers looking down on the inferior and stubborn Germans, they ever are used to call bloody huns.
For its engagement aside of the Anglos the Germans got each time nothing but humiliation and despise back.
So Germany will have to think not only twice but a few times more if they ever will engage again together with so-called allies of this type.
Germany is tolerating since 1945 the huge masses of occupation forces on its soil. Which other country still has since 1945 occupation forces on its own soil ?
But German bashing has a very long tradition in all WEstern countries and so it was not ending but it has been increasing extremely the last decade.
The various comments about Germany here on this thread are more than significant.

So German politics was right looking for better options in Russia and China:)
The big rift is widening between Germany and the hatemongering rest of Europe.

"... until Italy reaches a budget surplus (approx. four years before the UK) after which the Italian economy will recover rapidly as the UK economy worsens."

_________________________________

WRONG.

There wil be no "rapid recovery" for Italy for the forseeable future. And here's why:

In order to avoid imminent default, Monti had to drastically raise revenue FAST, and he did so, thus stifling growth further. But the did hardly anything to slash public spending and open up closed markets, push people to work and generate additonal growth. That is the opposite of what Germany did under Schroeder and the US under Clinton/Gingrich.

This is what the US did in the mid-90s and Germany in the mid-2000s: LOWER taxes, REDUCE public spending, OPEN up markets, PUSH people to work - the classical neoclassical formula. Result: low unemployment, comparatively strong growth.

None of that has been happening in Italy.

On it's current course, Italy can avoid default (with the ECB's help), but that's about it. Without massive liberalization following the Clinton/Gingrich and Schroeder governments' examples, it will remain stuck in stagnation for a third decade straight. And I don't see such a wave of liberalization happening should the left win elections, as now appears likely.

Josh, why do you bother writing posts on Italy? You have no knowledge, only prejudices.

Why don't you write:
"Italy will have difficulties due to the fact that one of the theories of its most famous sons, Cristoforo Colombo, has been proven wrong, and the world is actually flat, contrary to previous beliefs."

Such a sentence would contain more truth than what you write above.

Monti has cut public spending on EVERYTHING. There is all sorts of suffering in every sector. Even the police are without petrol for their patrol cars. These spending cuts have been overshadowed by increased interest expense during the year.
Nevertheless...

Preliminary reports from the Finance Ministry indicate that our 12-month deficit came in at €42.8 billion, while the increase in overall indebtedness was €48.5 billion thanks to about a further €6 billion contributed to the capital increase of the ERM mechanism. This means our deficit should come in at 2.8% of gdp this year, down from 3.9% last year.
The increase of indebtnedness including the ERM capital increase is 3.2% - with inflation also around 3.2%. In other words, debt-to-gdp should increase to about 123% in the end (not the 127% you have been predicting) and we are below the Maastricht deficit limit for the first time in five years.http://www.tesoro.it/ufficio-stampa/comunicati/2013/comunicato_0001.html

What closed markets? What are you talking about? Why are you talking out your rear end? We are inside the EU market, right? "Push people to work"? Are you out of your mind? We have millions of people looking for non-existent work at the moment - to suggest Italians are "lazy" is pure racism at this point. The only relevant question for millions is whether or not they will have the courage, money and initiative to leave the peninsula to look for work elsewhere - and in that case, they will not be contributing to the tax base.

As for lowering taxes - there is no way taxes can be lowered until we achieve a budget surplus - preferably of 2%. We are still two years away at least - although the end of the current recession should relieve pressure on the cyclical deficit. Last week, some €8 billion in 6-month Treasury bills was sold at 0.9%, down from 3.2% a year ago. That equals an annual savings of €180 million. Definitely a better sign for the future/2013.

And no, the country has not been in stagnation for two decades, nor will it be for another decade. The country had slow growth for fifteen years of 1-2% - WHICH IS FINE FOR A COUNTRY WITH NO POPULATION GROWTH TO SPEAK OF - growth that was largely erased by the Great Recession of 2009 (and the double-dip of 2012).

What help has been extended to Italy from the ECB? Are you confusing us with Spain?

Yesterday our spread closed at 275 basis points, exactly half of the 550 basis points it was at over a year ago. Ten-year Italian bonds are sold on the secondary market at 4.2%. And the biggest reason is not due to Draghi and the ECB, but the agreements reached on resolving the Greek and Spanish bank recapitalisations, thus removing the biggest justifications for current hand-wringing. After reducing the average maturity of Italian bonds from 7.5 years to 6.7 years over the last year, the Treasury announced yesterday that they will seek once again to lengthen the maturities and sell more 10-year bond issues in 2013. In addition, instead of the €440 billion in bonds sold this year, our Treasury will need to sell only €400 billion in 2013.

Unicredit had net profits of €1.4 billion for the first 9 months of the year; BancIntesa had net profits of €1.7 billion in the same period.

There is not a single sentence in your post that corresponds to reality.

Your lies and prejudices are getting tiring. WTF is your negative obsession with Italy? Why don't you worry more about:
Deutsche Bank's criminal dealing of American toxic mortgage-backed securities?
Deutsche Bank's criminal manipulation of the LIBOR?
Deutsche Bank's criminal over-lending to Greece, a country without a Land Registry?
Deutsche Bank's speculation against Italian and Spanish bonds last year?
The criminal investigation now under way regarding the testimony of three whistle-blowers that Deutsche Bank hid 12 billion of losses in recent years?
The fact that German police have raided the headquarters of Deutsche Bank twice in the last month?
The fact that apparently the Bundesbank was completely negligent of their monitoring responsibilities during the above activities?

Face it. Germany's manufacturing reputation remains intact, but the reputation of its banking/financial sector is destroyed.

If you allude to Thomas Friedman's classic "The World Is Flat" (2005) on globalization without apparantly having read it, you have nobody to blame but yourself when you look a bit silly.

Friedman describes very convincingly what is needed to thrive in a globalizing economy. Judging by their dismal record, I don't think the Italian governments of the past half-decade have gotten hold of a copy of the book. And judging by your statements, you either haven't read nor understood it.

I have no "negative obsession with Italy". But when you make another one of your famous predictions and say Italy will outcompete the UK soon, I guess I am allowed to point out why I don't think that'll happen.

Market liberalizations as in the US (mid-90s) and Germany (mid-2000s) allow for the CREATION of jobs - and it makes sense to PUSH people to taking these new jobs by making welfare benefits subject to the recipient taking up additional work.

Today, Germany (pop. 82 million) has 41.5 million jobs which enjoy full social security insurance, an all-time high, and that despite high immigration.

Italy (pop. 61 million) has only 22 million such jobs. Black market jobs do not enjoy social protection - and THAT's the fundamental difference.

I'm sorry the fact that the UK has 'an unelected head of state' still irks you. Don't let it worry you. I'm quite happy with it.

However, if I were Italian I'd be much more concerned by an over-dressed tailor's dummy from Goldman Sachs being imposed on my country by a foreign power without a murmur from anyone, least of all from my head of state.

Junoir, Monti was not imposed by a foreign power. Please don't make the cardinal error of actually BELIEVING British propaganda.

Monti was SPONSORED from the beginning by the Italian Head of State, who used his constitutional power to nominate Monti Senator-for-Life.
Mr. Berlusconi was then forced out of office by a no-confidence vote (accompanied by a rebellion of several of his own back-benchers) and Monti was VOTED into office by an ample parliamentary majority composed of the Left, Centre and Right.
These are the facts - and everything else is propaganda.

BTW, Both Draghi and Monti spent a few years at Goldman Sachs. Neither of them are "GS men". Draghi has a long career as an Italian civil servant and his father was also a Bank of Italy executive. Monti is more of a FIAT man (he was board member for years) than a GS man and has a long career as a professor.
Amazingly, members of the Italian elite who spend part of their careers in Anglo-Saxon financial institutions are still highly considered here (for how much longer is debatable). As one Bank of Italy official quipped 3 years ago - defending the solidity of our banks and their non-participation in all the recent scandals: "Fortunately, our bankers never learnt to speak English very well."

Finally, it does not "irk me" that the UK has an unelected Head of State. It irks me that the SUBJECTS of the world's oldest unelected Head of State have the balls to criticise the EU for being an "undemocratic" institution, and then spread that opinion throughout the world. Sounds like a very bad case of psychological projection, and it should be denounced as such.

Hi,Bro. Check the below and cut the crap about German Green technologies.

"....It has been a remarkable year for crude oil as the demand-supply fundamentals have undergone a metamorphosis from a deficit in the past three decades to surplus in 2012.

The world crude oil production has increased by 4.37 per cent during 2008-12 and is estimated at 89.09 million barrels per day (mbpd). The US was the largest contributor to this growth, increasing its production by nearly 27 per cent.

The 12 oil producing and exporting countries (OPEC) account for over 41 per cent of the global crude oil production and 60 per cent of exports. The Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) countries account for over 25 per cent share in the world production. Saudi Arabia, a key member of OPEC, has 18 per cent of the world's proven petroleum reserves and is the largest crude oil producing nation, followed by the US, Russia and Iran.

However, a recent International Energy Agency (IEA) report predicts that a relatively new technology for extracting oil from shale rock could make the US the world's leading oil producer within a decade, surpassing Saudi Arabia.

According to the US Energy Information Administration (EIA) estimates, the 2012 US crude oil supplies were 10.9 mbpd, up by 7.7 per cent from 2011, because of the increase in production of shale oil.

The global oil consumption has increased 4.07 per cent, from 85.57 mbpd in 2008 to 89.06 mbpd in 2012, the growth at a relatively slow pace on account of the global economic crisis that affected most advanced economies. While there was a 4.8 per cent decline in consumption in the OECD countries during this period, it increased in non-OECD countries by 15 per cent.

The demand pattern has also shifted from the western world to the emerging and developing economies. The demand from China witnessed a phenomenal growth of over 28 per cent from 7.9 mbpd in 2008 to 10.18 mbpd in 2012...."

"What ever luck, or not, we have in the UK, it's in France that shale will happen and it will happen big. I know that goes against all conventional wisdom, but the same "experts" never predicted shale in the first place. France and the rest of Europe will embrace shale because there is going to be no other choice. When both the UK and European economies are catastrophes without shale, to actively reject shale is not shooting oneself in the foot. It's putting the gun in the mouth by giving a huge and permanent advantage to the US , China, Australia, and anywhere else outside of Europe.

The key political shift in Europe will be that the rest of governments, faced with financial disaster at best, are going to take energy policy away from Greens. We already see this not only in the UK, but at the EU level and from them to Germany and even France. Greens are making a fatal mistake in overestimating their influence if they continue, as in France, making shale a make or break issue. No one is going to win national elections on an anti shale platform. Anywhere."

We have a reserve estimated big enough for supplying our needs for 150 years, but our greens managed to pass a law that forbid us to exploit shales gas, hope that Hollande will get rid soon of these neanderthal kool aid drinkers, that represent less than 1% of the voters

Another new French model. For the last 30 years there was a new French model every 7 years and then every 5 years. If the French model according to it's politicians and "peuple" is so good...why do they keep changing it. Simply because its all one big lie. The french model just doesn't work. So get over it!

Ayrault will have a short life, the new PM name is already chosen, Louis Gallois, just that Hollande wait for a political opportunity to make a change (something like lost local elections somewhere in France)

Amongst the usual anti-Germanz waffling the real news escapes you as usual: Warren Buffet invests 2.5 billion in a Solar project in California. An admittance by one of the finest minds in business around that all this hype about shale oil is c**p and the future lies, as Germany has been telling the world, in sun, wind and water generated energy with its own technologies in these areas well advanced.

Here, zorbas, lies the future also for Greece. No need to lie about the non-existent oil and gas fields around Crete in order to keep creditors interested. You have sun, wind and water and a lot of German companies able to exploit these god given free commodities once Greece has become a predictable country again, either inside or outside of the Eurozone.

I see you didn't miss viva's post yesterday in which he called the Germans "grunting pigs" (sic!).

On the rest you are wrong, of course. Buffet shows what is lacking our country: Balance.
You seem to have enough money to pay Big Mamas project "Energiewende"- But will the German industry and the average household? We are not Norway, keep that in mind.

The US are just doing fine, not rejecting the god given power of sun AND oil. Why shouldn't they?

Better do not advise Greece to go the same Green-ideology-only-way our country has chosen - they are not stupid. Once their debt is written off - and no day sooner- they will start selling their oil and gas.

wind farms and solar projects are a waste of states money, they need subsidies for being sustainable. At the end their energy costs are higher than nuclear's
And you still want that the German enterprises sell this "crap" to Greece, thus increasing your exposition to Greece's debt through Bundesbank clearings, and to keep the euro crisis ad eternam alive .... of course that would also keep your unemployment rating low, but it's a short term bet !

Zorbas has all the time in the world Pumper. Remember, Zorbas doesn't live in Greece. Zorbas saw this coming. He wishes the Greeks and the Germans all the best, but would not trade places with the Brits, or any of the Europeans on the continent either.
I trust that Merkel will do as she has been told. In the end all politicians do. The more affluent a society, the more that trickles down. Europeans days are numbered. Look, you're at each others throats already and you've barely just begun.
Don't listen to Viva. He's blinded by his extreme political ideology, all gloom and doom. When the US sneezes, the rest of the world catches the cold. Well, this time the US caught the flu, and Europe's on life support.
Birt's conclusions also ring false as well. In or out, it hardly even matters anymore. The sun set on the British empire quite some time ago. Net contributor? So what. That and a quarter, will buy you a token on the subway, 50 year ago.
It's over, game, set and match. The US always wins. Europe always loses. China does not control her own destiny. The US is the Moderator that holds the most important trump card. Never bite the hand that feeds you, unless you have nothing to lose.
No one will ever dare bite the USA's hand. Too much to lose. For those that thought they could, we have the unilateral military remedy, and watch how quickly Birt's precious Great Britain falls in line behind the US.
Birt is representative of his culture of course, a most pompous Lord of the Wind Bag, droning on and on about wanting out. Out or in, it doesn't really matter anymore now does it Birt.
The sun set on the British empire quite some time ago. Bow to your lords and monarchs, and enjoy your tea and crumpets Birt. but the economic spanking of course, is no longer optional.

Funny, you make a statement based on the last 100 years.
Ignoring the previous 2000 years.
The next 100 years might look quite different. Europe and China
are far older than the US. Empires come, Empires go.

"China does not control her own destiny."

Nor does the US at present. Owned by China. Buying products made in China. Soon to be bested by China.

Germany never has been giving any advice to any foreign country because foreign affairs never have been any kind of a German business since 1945:)

But Germany has the right to decide where they are wasting or throwing away their well earned money.
This is the only point from the German pov.
And if Germany has decided to abolish nuclear power you have to accept if you like it or not.
And if Germany wants to go backwards to a rural society full of farmers you would have to accept that as well.
And what the rest of the world is thinking about Germany we all know in Germany very well and so we have been used never taking carte of an opinion about us in foreign countries.
We are quite aware that it never has been positive.
So Germans do not care about the opinions in Western countries:)

Viva thank you for reviving this dormant blog, but your beloved subject and obsession with the resentful Russo-German alliance is slightly off topic. “...the shift of Germany's center from Bonn to Berlin cemented Germany into a permanent tilt toward Moscow and weakened the long-term influence of the US on Central European affairs.”

The causes of the “tilt towards Moscow” if any have other origins than you have erroneously perceived (you should not ignore the Germanambassador’s humorous exaggerations).

-The years of US and its whispering advisor AIPAC policy of condescension towards Germans. Do not bring the Marshal plan farce, the crumbs accounted for 11% of the total only.

-Mistrust, manifested by the perpetual presence of US soldiers on the German soil to this day.

-Russian noble gesture in implementing the unification and leave.

-Your tunnel vision on oil supplies and preoccupation with ME oil makes you servants of Saudi’ kings and the causes of ME quagmire that you want to drag other countries including Germany into. Other countries have oil (Canada, Russia) as well.

The US has huge natural resources; Germany has not. This is why Americans have no say in this matter, but Germans have ... must have. However, logic tells us that diversifying a nation's electric jacks is the smart thing to do. In July 2012 26% of all electricity in Germany came from 'Renewable Energy' (20% from nuclear).http://cleantechnica.com/2012/07/26/germany-26-of-electricity-from-renew...
Projected in Germany is a 35% Energy-mix of Renewables by 2020.
Nucelar, infact all base load, is going down here in the US as well. Coal plants capacity factor is decreasing all the time and nuclear plants are accumulating losses.
It's not only all about 'profitability', it's also about a nation's indepndence and security.

German politics has been underlining since ever that Germany has a very special and strategic relationship with the great country of Russia and China.
With both countries only Germany has privileged and strategic partnership and these two big countries are the future for Germany.
France became that much unimportant to Germany that German politics is regarding a visit to Paris as a waste of time.
London is on the same level for German politics.
What should a German politician do in Paris, London or Rome when the results are already known before they start in Berlin?
So time is better invested in a visit to Peking or Moscow :)
So easy politics can be in modern time:)

The tilt towards Moscow is the only chance for Germany getting out of this trap of hatemongering Western nations.
The last hope for German existence is only Moscow and China.
In Europe it is clear that they have no chance.
The rest of Europe is about to erase Germany as a nation and as an ethnic group.
Europe and the West have decided the final end of Germany.
Germany is about to fight its last fight in order to survive.

QUOTE MYSELF:
......
An average nuclear power station produces around 1000 MW. Larger ones may reach around 3000 MW with three turbines. The smallest one produces around 300MW.
......
The existing ammonia/water Kalina plants produce the following amounts of energy:

Unterhaching, practically a suburb of Munich, is the major power producer today (combined power/heating)

The patents (some 200 of them) on the Kalina cycle (a mixture of ammonia/water) are owned and traded by a subsidiary of Wasabi Energy Ltd. Siemens owns the rights to use them while FL Schmidt, the Danish cement operator and designer, owns the rights to sell the cycle to all cement plants in the world.

Germany together with Iceland and Japan operates the most advanced Kalina cycle plants everywhere.

It is not unthinkable that in a couple of decades the combination of geothermal energy with the Kalina cycle will be a substantial part of stationary energy generation.

Two small points of curiosity. During the war, in Belgium, mostly in Brussels, buses ran on ammonia.

Where I mostly live nowadays, my two electricity bills have shown for the past 5 years a share of well above 55% of total of renewables, wind alone being occasionally above 40%.

Slowly and gradually, surely the way to go.

You can find a lot more on the Kalina cycle easily, even in always convenient, if not very high brow, Wikipedia. Just Google for Kalina cycle or ammonia as energy producer.

Thanks, sanmartinian, for providing us with this information, reminding us that there is more out-there in the energy field than just the nuclear/fossil option.

A big part of the reasoning against sun & wind energy is its general lack of base-load capability. Geo-thermal power plants can indeed fill the gap.

Here is a short explanation for those not familiar with the subject:

The good thing about this energy-option is that it produces virtually 'endless' energy. As we all know, it is created from the difference in temperature between the core of the earth and the surface. This drives a continuous conduction of thermal energy in the form of heat from the core to the surface . . . endlessly.

Thus, in theory, our Earth's geothermal resources are more than adequate to supply all of humanity's energy needs ... for now and for the foreseeable future. Producing energy with heat from the earth harbors just as much potential as solar power and wind generation, but with the advantage of constant reliability . . . not just "when the sun shines".

The problem, so-far, seemed to be that only a very small fraction of this 'never ending' energy resource may be profitably exploitable at TODAY's fossil-fuel prices.

Drilling and exploration for 'deep' geothermal resources - those that are stored and produced in abundance - requires high-end technology and advanced engineering which is also very expensive. However, as always, as more as these geothermal resources are used as cheaper the exploration costs will become.

Japan was one of the forerunners in the field of easy-available thermal energy resources, produced as a byproduct of other production processes or from geothermal sources already present at low depths. The latter is done by simply pumping water at high pressure into the ground where geothermal availability already exists, thereby turning the area there into a continuous-flow heater.

These are hydrothermal techniques which directly utilize hot water already present at low depths in certain areas by turning the area there into a continuous-flow heater. For instance in Unterhaching, mentioned by sanmartinian, the power of naturally-occurring hot water is being tapped.

'Accidently' Unterhaching’s major is also a physicist,

The project in Unterharching materialized, because 'accidently' the town's mayor is also a physicist, a profession quite often found in German politics (e.g. Mrs Merkel). With the help of Siemens' I&S, the facility now feeds its kilowatt-hours into the grid. It covers around 70 % of Unterhaching’s electricity and heating needs.

BTW, the town is located near Munich; it has slightly more than 22,000 people with a name usually nobody outside the region has heard before. But the successful conclusion of the the geothermal power-plant project spurred already the development of similar projects in other parts of Bavaria/Germany.

I must confess I played a little dirty trick: in a purely technical post I included an innocent joke of doubtful taste about the performance of a nation I admire and a sermon to those who use this thread for mudslinging matches.

This was to test whether Moderators had learnt the lesson that allowing posters to insult other people or groups of people detracts from the once high prestige of The Economy.

If this post is deleted it means Moderators oppose the sermon against not well behaved posters. If it remains, it may mean they have learnt the lesson and will accordingly stop the mudslinging orgy so common on these comments.

Now the technical reply to la.výritý expunged from anything not wholly technical:

PARTIAL REPETITION OF MY PREVIOUS POST

With humankind growing so fast and modern "hard" technologies consuming ever more energy, the quest for new sources of energy is one of the most meritorious pursuits today.

Not below the highly deserving research to cure cancer or other mortal diseases.

The Kalina cycle (water plus ammonia to provide explosive power) is unlikely to provide a new source of energy. Ammonia doesn't exist in large quantities in nature, as far as we know now.

But it has two peculiar advantages: ammonia production is the "greenest" ever technique. Ammonia can be made out of nitrogen in air and hydrogen in water releasing oxygen to the atmosphere.

(Unterhaching)Mayor Wolfgang Panzer has every right to be proud to promote the Kalina cycle.

I repeat: on its own it is no panacea except in cleaning the air.

But apparently it is the best technical solution to combine with geothermal sources so abundant in the world and, with a couple of exceptions (Iceland, S.Miguel in the Azores) so untapped.

It is not impossible geothermal energy, when we start "drilling" for it as enthusiastically as we do for petrol, will become a major source of energy.

Probably much cheaper and certainly much cleaner than oil.

Almost certainly it will need Kalina cycle installations linked to it for maximum efficiency.

Icelandic, Japanese, German engineers and small town Mayors deserve our utmost respect for promoting this technology.

Talk about "tunnel vision" and tilt towards Moscow: Only the total collapse of the Soviet Union finally forced the Russians to repatriate their troops after half a century of occupation, and you call THAT "a noble gesture"?

Where is the problem?
Just amusing what happens in Europe.
Never before it has been so entertaining.
Let the whole EU blow up like a big bubble or kick out those nasty German bastards as you are used to call them out the EU.
You would do a majority of Germans nothing but the biggest favour since WW II:)

Germany has enough options without the EU.

The EU will disband for sure in a big crash and then we will see a new regroupement in Europe.
And there will be definitively no further coalition between Germany and France.
The fonders of Europe were France and Germany.
The most inequal countries were trying to create a common Europe.
The extreme inequality of Germany and France is the basic reason for any failure of the EU.
It will never work and Germany should stop this faked nonsense.
Europe was a senile french idea of an old general.
French and Germans are born enemies and so they never can cooperate or friends.
Europe will end in a big bang as the French since ever loved.

We invariably talk past each other, so I won’t oblige you with your repetitive “European pissing matches” about developing and testing submarines etc. independently of “Europe”.

You missed the point entirely as expected, in your eagerness to restart said unconvincing “pissing-match” about your super-grande ever-glorious armée: ...which was ”that a ‘European defence’, of which if it ever came into being *the UK doesn't even want to be part *, UNLIKE you”, and then of course you will whine if France does not lead it. (btw watch EADS, which is finding its way to Germany.)
Just like with Joe’s Latin Union, a European common defence will only take place with “Germanz”(your word) permission.

Unlike France, the UK never saw itself leading your continent, ever. Where did you get the idea that the British did? There is no comparison. I repeat: even if a common European defence were possible, the UK doesn't want to be part of it.
Got it?
Perhaps you even think that those carriers and submarines are being built, developed and tested are for the benefit of “Europe” ?!?
You however do believe in “Europe” but very few British do, as you know, so forget us. Of course, you consistently whine about the € and €U, but ONLY because your politicians voluntarily take their orders from Berlin and your “Germanz”.

So what exactly is this “Europe” to people like you?

Look at Pedrolx, another EZ contradictory nationalist obsessive who "believes in Europe”, and has even become a new “Germanz”-bashing recruit having learned that he has to pay for it:)
Don’t you see the joke in your various national chauvinisms and the contradictory, pathetic lip-service to a “united Europe” and solidarity?

Pedrolx, Jan 2nd, 21:08:
since I am charged with "xenophobia" for not being gung-ho about your "EU" ever actually coming into existence, why did the French refuse to allow that Portuguese university, Fernando Pessoa, to open an annexe in Toulon?
So who are the xenophobes, Pedro? Sounds like it's your EZ buddies the French. (See Le Monde d'Education - "Université portugaise à Toulon: le ministre porte plainte"). You can find the URL to it yourself, which I still have, but which someone keeps deleting it. ( I wonderwhy – embarrassing, your empty “EU” solidarity, eh?)

"Germany has enough options without the EU."
Not so fast!
You've still got the French coming in snapping behind you (just like MC Asterisque) always wanting to cling on to your rump, you know, as in "building Europe with subsidiarity".

you will never see the facts like they are, you're too blinkered with your Brit exceptionality !

I'll repeat what "Affreux Jojo" said:

"poor Royal Navy, on the lam"

Of course Britain never wanted to lead continental Europe, but to influence it, a old tradition for the equilibrium of powers

I have no preconcepts on Defense, nor of what should be Europe, I just rely on FACTS, you're throwing your 'eurobots" flames to anyone that isn't agreeing with you, difficult to make a common agenda with persons like you, if you aren't prepeared to watch the differrent points of view for a synthesis.

BTW Tom Enders, who is a German, is not at Merkel service, he clashed many more times with the german government than with France's

about this fake portugese university in Nice, I had the opportunity to reply to your comment on DT

"hmm, you forget to say that the French medecine university is puting the case to Court, because this portugese institution is abusively using the label of "university", and that the Portugese responsible is accusing us of xenophobia, because he can't get a free pass for his "business". In the meanwhile if a French had opened such a institution too, using the same tricks, he would ALSO face a trial pursuit !
Why didn't this Portugese open his institution in Angola, or Brazil (or even UK)... where evidently such a teaching would be more necessary than in France."

I think the French are no more a factor in European politics.
In the nearest future they will have more than enough riots in their banlieues all over France quite close to a civil war- and nobody will help them:)
Germans will not enter French soil because France is protecting French criminals every day when they are committing crimes in Germany and crossing the French border.
French authorities are supporting criminals in their crimes they commit over the border in Germany and the German police has to stop at the French border:)
The French even openly refuse any cooperation with German police forces.

"You however do believe in “Europe” but very few British do, as you know, so forget us. Of course, you consistently whine about the € and €U, but ONLY because your politicians voluntarily take their orders from Berlin and your “Germanz”."

Who ever has been taking orders from Berlin or the Germanz in Europe ?
I would like to know from where you get your "informations".
Might be that is one of the typical hatemongering British and native English speaking "waffles" about Germany just because it is satisfying your island of inept losers and unsocialized hooligans?
You are nothing but pathetic.

It may be the end of all French illusions if Germany will continue its way of ignorance to France.
But France and the PIGS must be prepared to such a reaction of Germany - and then the dream is over for all the PIGS including France.
So please continue your politics of hatred and humiliation against Germany because this way Germany will be forced to react the sooner the better:)
A win-win situation for Germany and the PIGS and their leading nation France.
At the moment the French are getting a very little pre-taste what is coming up to them.
Perhaps a new left-wing government in Italy will enforce new and better solutions for Europe:)

According to François Hollande the heavy lifting is over and now is just the time for some fine tuning. On the other hand Angela Merkel remains much more prudent in her appreciation of the situation and future challenges to the euro and eurozone. This is not surprising. French leaders have always downplayed the seriousness of any situation (crisis) so as not to "effrayer les français" Whether it be in reality because the French themselves are afraid of any news which could disrupt the passivity of their daily routine or successive governments who look to pacify the masses, the net outcome remains the same which is a country in denial. I have heard the word crisis evoked since the early 80's. Are they(the French governments)ever going to have a situation in France where the economic problems are not blamed on some politically concocted crisis to explain away their own ineptitude. Based on the past..I think not.

Not a French basher just a realist which is what people like you call French bashers. You should hear me on the American Congress and I would be accused of being an American basher. Fortunately in my country this type of criticism is not considered as lèse majesty. In other words. Get a life. As for me being French. well we'll just call that 'The Road Less Traveled" In other words there's no pretending that I'm French because I am not.

well the type of generalisation you're making in regards to how the French perceive themselves and the world around them certainly does not make you 'a realist'
Why don't you go to the America Congress instead then? Maybe it would be less of a money waste.

"Listen you fellahs, you've become an embarrassment to me. The world saw me begging Schäuble on YouTube for more money.
But unemployment remains high, growth is non-existent and I can assure you that there is no chance of even the most qualified of you ever finding jobs here.
Worst of all, you stubbornly refuse to transform yourselves into Germans but persist in being Portuguese !!

So I'm sorry to have to tell you this but would you kindly move your arses out of the EU-Raum to Angola or Brazil".

"DT never mentions Belgium recessive economy, but yours"
But you did. You wrote "PFIGIBS". You added Belgium to my PFIGIS - all in the EZ. UK/GB is not in the EZ. So what are you talking about? Forget the UK/GB.

"and also how much Britain has to loose if she departs from EU"
Look, I know France wants to remain in the "EU" so that it can still hug Germany's rump in vain, but leave our rump alone, please. That was always your thing not ours.
Anway, even our pro-EU politicians are not taken in by this "how much Britain has to loose if she departs from EU" propaganda from Brussels these days, so I do not know what you mean. Perhaps you believe Obama who really has no clue.
I know you are sour really because that beloved rump d'outre-Rhin has used the € to blast you into subordination, but please do keep your rump-hugging habit to yourself, and keep it clean (not that it'll do you any good! Hahahaha!)

“while it's true that we build war ships with Italy (unlike with UK, who was expecting us to build its new Carrier... and pay for it of course since your kingdom is broke.”
Again this crap about one aircraft carrier?

FACTS:

France and the UK each have one aircraft carrier, respectively the ‘Charles de Gaulle’ and ‘Illustrious’.

Two British carriers are now being built independently of French cooperation, the QE2 and the POW to enter service in 2016 and 2018. France has none under construction.

This, plus Britain’s new class of Astute nuclear submarines, six in all, coming on line make anyone with half a brain realize that a ‘European defence’, if it ever came about (which it won’t) is inconceivable without the UK which doesn't even want to be part of it, unlike you rump-clingons.

Still trying to tie us in to "Europe" eh?
Look there never will be a "European defence", so forget it.

"Chris Parry, former director of doctrine at the Ministry of Defence, said the two new £6bn aircraft carriers have been so stripped back they have less basic capabilities than Argentina’s navy during the Falklands War."

"The author notes that corrosion is widespread on the HMS Astute, has already affected HMS Ambush, and says action is required now to stop parts on the final four submarines suffering from the same problems."

No You wanted in, and knocked at the door many times before your pass in, just that you're whining for not having been able to orientate the EU policies ala Bristish way (re-read your compatriots comments on DT), and scapegoating the French for that

"I know you are sour really because that beloved rump d'outre-Rhin has used the € to blast you into subordination"

doesn't look so, even a rare commenter noticed that I was "smiling" ;-)

hmm who is rump-hugging himself?

hey keep on the good job, measuring your strengh, comparing it with the French's... it's a good laugh anyway !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PBvpRAofxY
If you understand French. Listen to this and get a chuckle. Over 30 years of empty promises and lies. In fact listen to the voeux of French Presidents over the past 30 years. Always on the "bon chemin" but somehow they manage to fall off the horse. Nothing has changed.
No Sarkozy and his clique never used fear. LOL.
words that you hear so often in the voeux of the French Presidents...l'état, malheur, souffrance, injustice, reform, solidarité grandeur, accablé, changement, le mal, ayez confiance, le chagrin, le deuil, pauvreté, la peine, surmonter, dur, l'insécurité, pire, la crise etc....lest we forget le pain, le vin et le boursin.

let me add to that if you watch the Voeux of french Presidents on Youtube most of the posters have disabled comments. Friggin cowards they are too afraid to have comments which might affect their hypersensitivity. To afraid that the state will come after them for sure.

Now watch the state of the Union address put online by The Whitehouse online and read the comments.

Many thanks for the links - I watched them both. I noticed there were only 2 comments to President Obama's Easter address.

I suppose you are not a Latin, so it is perhaps useless to explain to you that I have never really adored French poetry, only enjoy a few French films and read French literature only sporadically and with no particular eagerness.

And yes, I agree Sharko the Hungarian used fear to get elected - but I used the present tense. That is not the strategy of Hollande & Company.

North America? Perhaps we should take seriously the declarations of American presidents that the US will seek energy independence? We have heard that story since Jimmy Carter and before. Or perhaps I should take the "Right-to-Work"
states and their laws as an example for Western Civilisation?

France remains the country of the Enlightenment. Not the US, which resembles not so much a Western country as a Latin American Banana Republic.

Political discourse in French, serious political discourse, is always poetry ;-)

I know Depardieu is widely discredited today - just about everywhere, although we have more tolerance for his foibles in Italy than elsewhere. But his interpretation of Danton in the eponymous film caused me to fall in love with French language ;-)

"North America? Perhaps we should take seriously the declarations of American presidents that the US will seek energy independence?"

And I agree with you. We will not be energy independent soon because of the power of energy companies and the "gourmandise" of the American people for burning energy.

The difference is I recognize the hypocrisy of my country when the moniker applies. Certain French and a large part at that, are quick to point the accusing finger of French bashing every time one makes a comment about the realities of do nothingness in France.

You will note a year later that the Euro has survived intact. So, the Euro-bashers like yourself have been wrong.

The race is not over Junoir. And the Brits have been consistently "revising" their stats every 6 months or so after the fact. And the revisions have been consistently much worse than what was reported initially.

That is what the UK parliament is saying - and what about a more objective source?

"In the first eight months of the fiscal year, the deficit climbed to 92.7 billion pounds from 84.4 billion pounds a year earlier, with spending up 2.7 percent and revenue down 0.1 percent. Those figures exclude a one-time boost from the 28 billion-pound transfer of Royal Mail Group Ltd. pension assets to the public sector. The OBR, a non-partisan body that oversees forecasting for the Treasury, predicts a deficit of 120 billion pounds for the full fiscal year."http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-11-21/u-k-budget-deficit-unexpectedly...

So, the British deficit will AGAIN be over 8%. That represents almost no reduction from the £125 billion deficit recorded in 2011, DESPITE the one-off boost from the Royal Mail Group.

And UK official sources predicted 0.8% growth for 2012 - and only in December admitted 0.1% growth - which will probably be downgraded to a -0.5% recession by the time final numbers come in 4-5 months from now (given past reporting trends in the UK).

With the Italian recession at 2.5% this year, the UK has achieved NO real reduction in its deficit even though our recession was 2.0% worse than yours. We have achieved a deficit of 2.9% (yes, well above the original 1.8% target from the beginning of the year and still worse than the 2.5% target expressed five months ago) which is more than FIVE POINTS of GDP smaller than that of the UK. And the UK performance worsens if we look at the primary budget balance - almost +3% surplus in Italy and a deficit of much worse than -3% in the UK - some SIX POINT FIVE percentage points worse.
And yes, this austerity in the midst of a recession is costing us more unemployment (less than 3% greater at harmonised rates).

In short, the unemployment race is being "won" by the UK only in the near term. When does the UK intend to actually reduce its deficit? Or admit that its economic performance is only marginally better than Italy's despite its AAA status (bogus) and despite "no recession" (also a bogus claim)? Despite its greater political stability? (The same Head of State for 60 years? Hardly democratic.)

Finally, when does the UK intend to address its competitiveness problem instead of using its propaganda power to accuse the South of such "problems"? Italy has achieved a solid trade surplus this year after 8 years of trade deficits (when net energy imports exceeded our manufacturing surpluses). The UK's trade deficit is at 6% of gdp - around $170 billion. Italy will have a trade surplus of over $10 billion. And that in a period when the British, German and American press have bashed our manufacturing reputation for months on end.

The UK is a giant with feet of clay. And the British press is using the full propaganda power of the English language - the most widespread in the developed world - to attack the credibility of ITS OWN ALLIES.
With friends like these...

A further prediction of mine: the (disastrous) Keynesian stimulus being administered in the UK will continue to make British economic performance (gdp growth, unemployment) marginally better than Italy's in the short term...
... until Italy reaches a budget surplus (approx. four years before the UK) after which the Italian economy will recover rapidly as the UK economy worsens.

Sorry for the somewhat abrupt reply below. It's just that I long ago gave up these endless, stat-based pissing contests, beloved of you and Josh, where each side vainly strives to convince the other party (though he never does) of the superiority of his own cabbage patch.

All experiences of many years gave clear proof that the different ethnics and terrible mutual contrasts always were ending almost in a new war.
Leaving British, French and German soldiers longer than 5 minutes together each time was ending almost wit a new war.
This is the experience of high NATO-commands since many years.
While German soldiers risk their lives whenever they meet French, British or American "allies" they are warmheartedly welcome in China and Russia.
This is daily NATO- reality and it is especially enforced by the British and French authorities and governments.

"... until Italy reaches a budget surplus (approx. four years before the UK) after which the Italian economy will recover rapidly as the UK economy worsens."

_________________________________

WRONG.

There wil be no rapid recovery for Italy for the forseeable future. And here's why:

In order to avoid imminent default, Monti had to drastically raise revenue FAST, and he did so, thus stifling growth further. But the did hardly anything to slash public spending and open up closed markets, push people to work and generate additonal growth. That is the opposite of what Germany did under Schroeder and the US under Clinton/Gingrich.

This is what the US did in the mid-90s and Germany in the mid-2000s: LOWER taxes, REDUCE public spending, OPEN up markets PUSH people to work - the classical neoclassical formula. Result: low unemployment, comparatively strong growth.

None of that has been happening in Italy.

On it's current course, Italy can avoid default (with the ECB's help), but that's about it. Without massive liberalization following the Clinton/Gingrich and Schroeder governments' examples, it will remain stuck in stagnation for a third decade straight. And I don't see such a wave of liberalization happening should the Left win elections, as now appears likely.

And what about the permanent German-bashing of your elite and your governments?
Did anyone of you French ever really take notice in your genetic ignorance and genetic arrogance that Germany is a neighbour country?
Well, I know that Germany is fortunately farer away than one of your rotten islands like Haiti with 60 % jobless and I know La Réunion is closer to each of you arrogant ignorants as Freiburg or Kehl.

All of Europe is in denial by pretending their present situation is merely a "crisis". A crisis is a temporary catastrophic event (like the Lehman crisis) which will pass eventually. What the EU now experiences, however, is a slow downward spiral because the focus of world trade has permanently shifted from the Atlantic to the Pacific, leaving Europe in a backwater.

Want proof? Just look at the empty container ports on the US East coast, and the enormously busy West coast ports packed with ships from around the Pacific Rim where four fifth of the world's population reside. As China has just announced, the US is now its biggest customer, surpassing its trade with all 27 EU nations combined.

New Year’s historical warning to all eurofederalist wafflers and ever-closer-integrationists:

"We must not forget the lessons of history, which has more than once shown us how the very vastness of an empire, and lack of a common unity among its subjects, have proved at some supreme crisis the most potent elements of its downfall."
- Helen Blavatsky. (As the €Z has proven.)

“It is easier to write ten volumes of philosophy than to put a single precept into practice”.
- Tolstoy: ‘Studies in Karma; the soul of Russia’. (A lesson to the unelected who “knew best” about a single currency “precept”.)

Don't expect any gratitude from Der Spiegel or majority of Germans for the fact that Germany is reunited today because of Bush Sr. The USA is only there to be used for German interests and than kicked around according to the mindset of that opportunistic crowd spoilt for decades by American generosity.

"You have a strange understanding of freedom of expression? Suzanne Malveaux is an American journalist, reflecting America's opinon in DER Spiegel. It's not necessarily DER SPIEGEL'S opinion."

Interesting that now the Germans are made responsible for the opinion of American journalists:)
But do not forget in your insatiable hatred blaming the Germans for the weather or the hurricanes in the USA.

But typical for an American hatemonger like emmfinney (called sherryblack)

This is written by people who want to pit Europeans against one another. They may or may not all belong to the same group . I think it might be a political movement of sorts. This one, might have been written by one of them in an attempt to 'pretend' Europeans hate the British and want them out of the EU.

"This is written by people who want to pit Europeans against one another."

There is no need of it. They are already against each other and in many Western countries the governments now see the results of their chauvinist politics by blaming always others for their own fault.
The Germans are the perfect scapegoat for anything.

The Euro has survived 2012 and will come out of this greedy capitalist’s perpetual valley healthy and stronger than any other major pretender. I feel it in my urine!

...and now the sad news, I was asked to convey his family message that on Dec. 14 Pumpernickel has passed away. As I write this shocking news my tears are falling on my key board and kppkld idowkokok. Pleeeeece go ahead and treasure his last insignificant post.

Well, this has been doing the rounds:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9766670/Most-voters-now-want-Britain-to-leave-EU.html

" The figures, in a Guardian/ICM poll, showed 51% would vote to take Britain out of the European Union, against 40% who wanted to stay in.

They mark a slight increase in euroscepticism since autumn 2011, when 49% wanted to leave the EU. There has been a significant shift since 2001, when a poll showed that the public wanted to remain in Europe by a margin of 68% to 19%.

They found that 36% would “definitely vote to leave”, while 15% would “probably vote to leave”, against 22% who would “definitely vote to stay in” and 18% who would “probably vote to stay in”.

Meanwhile, support for Ukip was running at 7% for a second month in a row, a record high for the Guardian/ICM polls."

We saw that: the real figure for "outists" is probably almost 80% if the Guardian readership itself, the traditional apologists for the "EU", is anything to go by.

People like Schäuble know this and have hit the "we want the UK in the EU" panic button. No friendly gesture that, nor was it out of any of this fraternal union humbug of course, but because EUphiles are passing solids at the idea of a net contributor leaving the shambles.

Schäuble said "we will not be 'blackmailed' by our British 'friends' ".
What an incredibly inverted, pig-ignorant, impudent and arrogant statement.
Just wait for them to roll out the real bklackmail with threats of sanctions and reprisals, with the gloves off. That machine is already rolling behind the scenes. Give it another month.
Then people will be all the more determined to leave the dictatorship.

("… Already long ago, from when we sold our vote to no man, the People have abdicated our duties; for the People who once upon a time handed out military command, high civil office, legions — everything, now restrains itself and anxiously hopes for just two things: bread and circuses.")

We played by the rules ie we were the good student even after the crisis. As said previously the two-fold increase in our government debt was so the banking system could be saved (or following the reccomendations of the European Commission, and the OECD, etc. meaning bailing out smaller banks etc.)

We played by the rules when the European Commission, the OECD, the World Bank, IMF , etc, said austerity was the only way forward.

We were the 'good student' indeed.

What of your nation? It spat on the teacher's face and when asked who dun it pointed at iphis best friend.

I'd like to see Britain finally putting in place all the reforms she's been promising the markets for years now. P
But I forgot - you're given a special treatment, you ARE Britian after all. let the good student pay for it. Look at him he's just a poor (tu) geek who'll do everything the teacher will tell him to do.

"In the past 1 year alone, 4 Irish immigrants have joined my company. Now this is only one company."

Good to hear that Dunder Mifflin is still hiring in these jobless recovery times. I presume those Irish guys have a degree in macroeconomics or at least some basic understanding of it which seems to be a scarce commodity in your vicinity.

The fact that North Americans import Irish labor in times of a very meager recovery speaks volumes about either the lack of qualification or exagerated demands of the available local labor.

Finally, it's not the Euro - underperforming fiscal policies are the underlying cause. The Euro is just the pain in the a** that brings the obvious to the light and thereby acts as an agent of change to the better.

Sanmartinian, as always there are several flaws to the information that you put forward.

Despite weak GDP and a double dip, the UK has a lower unemployment rate than the 27 average and it is falling.
This runs against all the mathematical projections of economists, who run each country as a major exporter, because they fail to grasp the particulars.

It seems my prediction that it would take 15 years (as from 2008) for things to get back to normal is playing out as I predicted. The EU may hold together, yet the price for it is being doled out in blood, not currency.

The single currency has also brought extremists from the continent back out of the shadows, what an achievement.

STUMPED, the IMF primary concern is that it gets back the money, nothing more and nothing less. It is not there to prop up a currency, in fact doing so is a breach of its mandate.

"Sanmartinian, as always there are several flaws to the information that you put forward.

Despite weak GDP and a double dip, the UK has a lower unemployment rate than the 27 average and it is falling."

-----------------------

I'm glad someone else noticed it...

Anyway, he keeps belittling the UK, and then, when he is proven wrong with data, etc, he digresses (Isandlwana 1879! &c.), then he becomes unpleasantly condescending and finally tells you how much he loves England... more than you, of course, poor mortal.

And so the ECB must be held accountable for the debts of the members of the 'single currency', as the members are no longer holders of soveriegnty as countries, they answer to the ECB and to the elite in Brussels.

I hope all this won't awake his 'Athanasius Contra Mundum' complex, "all against me", etc. It has happened before. This is what he told me a few days ago:

sanmartinian in reply to Accrux Dec 24th, 10:56

to Accrux last three posts.

Well, I've managed to awake your indignation.

Thank God, one more!

I did the same once in another country and results were satisfactory.

Hope I get the same results now. So far it's working.

---

What did I do? I simply did not accept his digressions in his reply to me when I told him that part of what he wrote,

"Britain is no longer a world power. Indeed it is a medium to small power in today's world."

was wrong, and added data to prove it. Because if a country of 63 million inhabitants with the seventh GDP (Nominal) in the world—plus the other economic (10th in exports), political, strategical, military, cultural, non tangible, etc factors—is a "medium to small power", since there is no possible doubt about the first one, the superpower, the USA, I just wonder which are the medium to great and medium powers, or even the other "medium to small" powers...

But he digresses and keeps referring to Isandlwana in 1879... (forgetting, by the way, that five months later there was a Ulundi).

I believe that you overestimate the binding power of EU treaties. The ECB is based on just another treaty, which needed to be passed through the national parliaments in order to be implemented on domestic level. Each and every treaty can be repealed by the very same entity that implemented it. Thus, as long as independent national governments and parliaments exist in the EU, all EU treaties can be repealed on national level in the very same way they were implemented.

This is also true for the 'ECB' since it is merely the Headquarter of the European System of Central Banks (ESCB) which is composed of the European Central Bank (ECB) and the national central banks (NCBs) of all 27 European Union Member States. As such, the ECB is not a Central Bank in the classical sense. Yes, the ECB is the issuer of the Euro and the final determinant of the currencies monetary policy, but it’s not the Central (national) Bank of each individual EU country.

The capital of the ECB comes from the national central banks (NCBs). The ECB works with the central banks in all 27 EU countries, but in reality the ECB acts like a ‘foreign’ central bank to each member state. This is, on purpose, regulated in the ECB’s statutes. A common treasury with a corresponding taxing authority doesn’t exist. Therefore the Frankfurt-based Bank is left without perpetual tax-raising collateral; consequently it can't be ‘responsible’ for the debts of each member state.

Thus, no country “lost all sovereignty” when it signed up to the single currency. Their national central banks lost sovereignty over money supply (as it would be if a country adopted, e.g., the ‘gold standard’) but the spending (budgetary) policies remain in the hands of the respective governments. This is the often stated flaw and crux here: The ECB can’t officially function as a ‘lender of last resort’.

Yet, I see “last-resort-lending” as a very limited fiscal tool anyway, especially for countries with generally weak, uncompetitive economies (as some of the peripheral EZ countries display). Soon such countries would face inflation, even hyperinflation, so that their domestic currencies become unconvertible 'Mickey Mouse monies'.

What was said above, that all treaties can be repealed by the very same entity that implemented them, is also true for Britain’s EU exit, as may be the case. There is not much Brussels can do if EU treaties are simply ignored by a member country.

You are only subject to EU rules insofar as the UK legislation says that you are. Statutes are passed through your Parliament to implement each EU treaty. These statutes require UK judges to have regard to EU law in making their judgments. If they are ignored, there is not much Brussels can do. In the moment you repeal this UK legislation, you are 'free'. EU law would simply no longer apply to you. The debate with the EU would be about how best to manage your leaving, not whether you 'can' leave.

And, you don't have to pay anything to leave. In fact you will stop paying into the EU budget; instead you'll pay an admittance fee every year, similar to Switzerland, Norway, Iceland etc. (unless you give up priority-trade with the EU completely).

Together with the corresponding 'clause' there is a procedure for leaving the EU in the Lisbon Treaty. The leaving country is not allowed to take part in the discussion of the details of leaving, such as who bears any costs. In theory it requires permission from a majority of countries and MEPs. But in reality treaties can be repudiated. The only fixed condition is, once having left, the country - in this case the U.K. - remains bound by EU rules for two years - unless Britain wants the crippling consequences of an ugly divorce.

Résumé: The Lisbon Treaty only affects the UK because an Act of your Parliament had said so. If your Parliament repeals the Act, then you are not subject to the Lisbon Treaty leaving procedures IMO.

Thus, politically Britain can leave the EU any time, because no signed treaty can bind successor governments for ever. The EU is not yet at an integration level which would make treaties irreversible on national level.

However, Cutters, I don't think that the City wants to be 'outside'. 78% to 81% of its financial dealings are with the EU. Therefore, Mr. Cameron’s political leverage toward Brussels is limited, very limited.

Junoir suggested on Dec 25th, 16:48 to Pedrolx:
“May I humbly suggest that if Portugal had never sought to be a member of an organisation (the EZ) to which she is totally unsuited … etc.”, as a mentally hygienic healing remedy for those countries most afflicted by the €-disease. Kind advice, I think.

But the great Prof. PEDROLX2 himself declared on Dec 13th, 21:57 in a succinct comment that should be “the featured comment” of this blog “All hope (for the €) Not Lost”, as he lanced the very €-boil festering at the centre of the “EU” project with surgical precision :
.
“Who cares (about economics)? Economics is horse manure. What counts is politics.”
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Does this give a glimmer of the sheer political genius behind the saddling of the political €uro onto Portugal et al ?

Yup, Emeritus Prof. Pedrolx2 has nailed it: what counted was indeed “politics” and anything to do with “economics” must indeed have been “horse manure”.

I am sure politician Soprano Barosso would award the noble “political” team that masterminded the € (and himself most of all) the Nobel Prize for “Economics in the service of Horse Manure Politics” while his fellow countryfolk starve under planned “internal devaluation”, and while fervently planning his Ever-Closer-Union with his zealous Maoist Ever-Greater-Leaps-Forward into this happy “irreversible union”.

That's the thing old boy.
Economics IS horse manure. the 'dismal' science as some better educated ones would rather call it.
Ain't my fault that Economists keep getting t wrong.
I've said it countless times. What drives the markets is very simple: greed and fear.

“Who cares (about economics)? Economics is horse manure. What counts is politics.”
Are you kidding, pedro? If our 'smart' politician would have listened to our economists, there wouldn't have been an EMU. The problem is not economics but politics! Further on, the present situation is a consequence of lacking education in economics of the Hollandes, Merkels, Silvas,...

Portugal can't take more austerity. The crowd that enacted their little coup-d'état last year are fundamentalists who would make a tea party fundentalist blush with their ideology. They are making the middle class (and i mean doctors, teachers, nurses, police force, everythin a state actually needs) pay for the mistakes of the corrupt politicians and industrialists who took over about 150 years ago. Margaret Thatcher would grind her teeth at the ideas our finance minister seems to have for this nation. Reagan would have kneeled o him.

I agree with you here pedro. Internal deflation is way too painful and untested a so called remedy. Had the Greeks known, I think they would have fought their elites tooth and nail to stay out of the Euro. Now it's too late. This they seem to understand as well. They're resigned to their fate.

You may recall, Turkey was begging to get in, but she was told she wasn't ready yet, a blessing in disguise. Well, it resulted in a three fold devaluation of the Turkish Lira, and a booming economy. I wonder if the Turkish people still want in now. If I were a small business owner, no way. The secret our elites kept from us is out.

Once you're already in with this overly strong straight jacket of a currency, how does a low tech economy stimulate a recovery? I don't see any easy way out. At the very least, it will result in one lost generation of productivity for nations like ours.

Just glad you see for what it really is now. Sometimes you do everything in life they tell you to, and things still don't work out.

Portugal's got quite a lot of things going for itself. I have mentioned a few here and there, and attempted at breaking some of the misconceptions you hear about it, which do not correspond to the truth.

Portugal was a backwater in 1974. After 20 years of splendid isolation and a stubborn war against Former colonies, in a sort of a smaller version of the cold war fought within the remnant territories of the Portuguese empire, there was truly nothing left. That is why the soldiers themselves took to overthrowing the madness of a government which had been praised decades before for sparing Portugal from the horrors of WWII.

What came after was a true miracle. We now have one of the lowest infant mortality rates in the world, highly educated and well-sought after generations of young men ready for work, a society that works far better than many in the rest of Erope (believe I know, I've travelled).

For what? This whole austerity thing is the biggest scam in our world's recent history.

There was an attack on the Portuguese bond markets enacted by a group of maketparticipants. This was taken advantage of by a smaller group within the conservative party to take over and enforce their own idea of a nation were the state should not exist, or exist at a minimum. The hard fact is that in 2010 when the crisis was coming to an end, and after putting out several fires, with the backing of the European institutions (such as the bailing out of BPN) Portugal actually managed to grow by 1.4% . You can tell me that the Portuguese economy has many structural flaws. So be it. So do them all. I don't trust economics. There is no real model that can actually predict he outcome of a set of policies, and hence my usage of the phrase 'horse manures' to describe it.

To top it up, we've been called pigs, profligate, lazy, etc. how dare these people? The Portuguese people may have many flaws, but they are usually serious, hard working, and honest individuals who just want to make a living.

The corruption that exists here, exists much in the same way, manifold in your country and other ginger nations.

We were made the culprit of a crisis we did not create.

Portugal was the instigator of the entrance of both Portugal and Spain in the then EEC, to which Thatcher acquiesced. we tried our best to believe that the EU truly was about solidarity, not backstabbing, taking away our industries, and forcing us to relinquish bits of sovereignty, a sovereignty that many of my ancestors fought for with pride and honour.

Who are these people anyway? I recognise no valour in 90% of europe's politicians these days. They're idiots. I recognise even less value in the nouveau riche class who took over business in the City, Wall Street and Frankfurt. I want nothing to do with these people. I think they're quite laughable with their public displays of wealth and their fantasy world of success just because they crippled a company or a nation to death.

I must have been born in the wrong century.

Portugal deserves to be treated as an equal among equals. If that is not going to happen, I say we quit.

We were and are 'good students' as your press so condescendingly calls us. We did believe in Europe.

Then make it work.

Don't make our nurses pay for the mistakes of Europe's corrupt politicians, and Wall Street's nouveau riche clowns. Most of them just want to save lives.

Portugal missed a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to catch up in the 1980s and 1990s. That opportunity won't come back any time soon.

Massive EU subsidies spurred economic growth until the mid-1990s, but the Portuguese economy was never overhauled structurally, and the economy flatlined in the mid-1990s. Since then, Portugal has stalled.

Even though it is receiving the second-highest per-capita subsidies (after Greece) it is falling further behind: the gap with the EU average is widening, not closing, and Portugal is what it has been in 1974: Western Europe's least developed country, having been overtaken by half of the new eastern European EU members already.

your central bank is *completely* independent of political forces.(lol)
Are you an Economist?
No, booms do not last forever. Nor do crises. Nothing does really. But I don't need an Economist to explain that to me.
Fact of the matter is - Economics fails, epically, any prediction it attempts at making.
Unlike sanmartinian I don't think 'the market' tells you much, apart from whether people are 'scared' or 'greedy' at a particular moment in time and space.
by the way, I was expecting a reply to my post, not a reply to a reply from 'the viper with new skin'.

After having had the patience to read several of your "dyslexic" posts (many of them sent and addressed to me) and several of your non-dyslexic articulate ones, I can only see six possibilities:

1) You are not just one poster, but two (your brother, perhaps), hence the "x2". One is dyslexic or even tries to look like one and the other is not. I have seen this phenomenon before. This would be quite dishonest on your part.

2) You suffer from Cyclothymia or bipolar disorder. I am sorry for you.

3) You are a fake.

4) You like to laugh at your fellow posters and bloggers. Probably because of an inferiority complex (individual or national) compensated by a stronger superiority complex. What a lack of respect.

5) You think you are very smart and like to play childish "funny" games. They may be funny for you, but not for other people.

6) If sanmartinian were Dr. Evil, you would Mini-Me.

It's probably a combination of two or more, up to six.

-----------------------

I have a special credit (credibility and respect in this case) rating for some of the posters and bloggers here, considered individually or collectively. Using Moody's's ratings, the entity "Portuguese Posters", which only a week ago had a good rating, Aa3 to A2 as an average, is now at Caa1. Congratulations, folks! And it could worsen and be lowered to Caa3, Ca or even C, that's up to you.

----------------------------------

Fellow posters and bloggers, please feel free to choose any of the six possibilities or add new ones.

pedro, economics was pretty right in this case, but nobody cared!
Portugal replaced her weak currency with a much stronger, strict currency regime, increased the wages and loans.
As a consequence, Portugal decreased her competitiveness against their main competitors. That's the reason why they have lost businesses and replaced them with services. Investors have lost their faith and rejected to buy sovereign bonds -> uncertainty about insolvency/EMU exit -> increasing interest rates
No "attacks" by the markets and no conspiracy by some evil speculators to move businesses to other countries!
If you're offering garlic for the double price as your neighbours, do you call it "your business is attacked by consumers" when they prefer to buy the cheaper garlic?

exhibit a - There was no problem with hard vs soft currency, has proven by the fact that exports have steadily increased since 2001, and have in fact diversified.

exhibit b - as said previously state debt increased two fold to save banks, sort out the financial system, as was in fact, the recommendations of the EU, the OECD, and others

exhibit c - the stochastic behaviour of the rating agencies, clearly showing double standards in their analyses,provoking an exodus from our debt which should have never happened (I should add that the only country REALLY exposed to portuguese debt was Spain, so they were probably the ones dumping to the hedgies in London, NYC, and FFM).

exhibit d - the Portuguese economy has diversified in the past 10 yearsm by betting on market niches which are actually proving to be quite profittable. The biggest mistake was going to the EU meetings thinking we were going to meet friends, but instead we were going to meet backstabbers, who only look after their own interests.

who cares about Portugal anyway? We've been alone and alone and alone for centuries, it's not the first time that we're proven that betting on 'Europe' is just a sad mistake. We actually entered playing by the rules, only to be greeted with sad analyses of our economy my 6 year old nephew could detect the flaws.

Copy and paste "The European Balance of Payment Crises" to the search field.
Start the stream and click "Folien" for details.
It explains the problems of the EMU quite accurate from an economic point of view. Should be very insightful for a non-economist.

Don't waste your time. For Pedro, Portugal is just a victim that's been "backstabbed at EU meetings" by its euro zone partners, never mind a decade and a half of overspending and underachieving and multilateral help amounting to 2/3 (or 170 bn euro) of Portugal's GDP of 240 bn.

I guess he must talk about the same EU meetings at which the Portuguese minister of finance was famously recorded asking his German counterpart for more money:

------------------ --- (the dotted line I referred to above when you sent me a post and asked me something about what Cutters wrote—and I just quoted it as a part of a longer quotation—. In other words, in my personal usage, the separation between quotation and text, PLUS the quotation marks. Is it clear now?)

I just took a look: Jesus Christ! 147 pages in 16 months! Nine pages per month, two pages every week, unless you took a long leave, as I did (it's very healthy). That's indigestible, mate. And... what section? The dyslexic or the non-dyslexic one? :-(

"For Pedro, Portugal is just a victim that's been "backstabbed at EU meetings" by its euro zone partners, never mind a decade and a half of overspending and underachieving and multilateral help amounting to 2/3 (or 170 bn euro) of Portugal's GDP of 240 bn. "

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It's an old complex. Backstabbed by Spain and by the Dutch. Backstabbed even by Britain (Portugal is England's oldest ally!) in the 1890s when she was on the brink of partitioning most of the Portuguese colonial empire with Germany or even just "selling" it to Germany... (anyway, many Britons and Germans thought that Portugal did not know how to administer and manage appropriately her own huge colonies, Angola and Mozambique).

As for "a decade and a half of overspending and underachieving" , as you write, that was also true, at different levels, for the other PIIGS: many nouveaux riches and nouveaux bourgeois those years! It was like the lottery...

All too human, pedro. What has been the 'politicians' promise to their voters in those countries that are now in deep financial doo-doo? - More 'wealth and social security' - based on peoples 'greed and fear'.

So, why do you think that poor politics are any better than bad economics?

"Our central bank here in the US is independent of external political forces of course."
Either you never took economic classes in the US . . . or you slept during the lectures.
The Federal Reserve was never conceptualized as an "independent central bank". It was rather designed (with the Federal Reserve Act on December 22, 1913) to be the Federal Government's banker. This is why the Fed system is headed by a seven member Federal Reserve Board made up of public officials who are appointed by the ruling political entity: by the US President, confirmed by the US Senate.
Like no other central bank (in a free market economy), the US Department of the Treasury and Federal Reserve are tied together. Their common political effort is to maintain a national economy according to the particular political requirements. Therefore, the Fed's perpetual solvency is fully guaranteed by the American taxpayer (in form of the Department of the Treasury).
The Fed even processes transactions for the US government, such as accepting electronic payments for Social Security taxes, issuing payroll checks to government employees and clearing checks for tax payments and other government receivables.
However, most importantly the Fed provides the current US government with liquidity - as much as it pleases. The Federal Reserve and the Department of the Treasury work together to borrow money when the government needs to raise cash. The Federal Reserve issues U.S. Treasury securities and conducts Treasury securities auctions, selling these securities on behalf of the respective US Government's Department of the Treasury. All Timothy Geithner has to do is issuing corresponding IOUs to the Federal Reserve.

Ps : and at least we don't lose wars like the rest of you losers. There is nothing more profligate than to spend billions in weaponry just so you keep losing all your wars.
You might as well start giving money to charity.
Reminds me of when a small Portuguese army of a few hundred took over Madrid in less than a day in the war or Spanish succession.
That is the biggest joke.

"It truly isn't our fault that all the rest of the Europeans are nothing but backstabbers, liars, and thieves, and which have managed to give less to civilisation than small little old Portugal."

________________________________

This coming from someone who's living in the country which has received the second-highest per-capita EU subsidies since its admission 27 years ago, and which is currently kept on life-support by its euro zone peers with credits equaling 2/3 of its annual GDP - PORTUGAL.

Pathetic.

Being a good european when being part of "Europe" means nothing more than to receive massive handouts is cheap. For a lot of Europeans, being part of the club has always involved sacrificies. Welcome to reality.

They seem to keep deleting this post or have it reported when it represents, in my modest opinion, a very valid counter-argument to your own.

Portugal's 'imbalance of trade' is mostly to do with trade with neighbouring Spain. Portugal has a positive balance of trade with France and the UK.

It doesn't fare so badly with Italy and Germany either.

See what I mean? Amalgamating nations trying to find a common ground without looking at a given country's specifities is fallacious. Portugal exports more per capita than Spain . Almost triple per capita than Greece. Holland is in a similar situation, but Rotterdam saves her from the big neighbour situation (functioning as a port of entrance to products not manufactured there which are then counted as 'exports' to Germany). Ireland the same because the EU allowed
Her to have a low corporate tax.

Portugal, the good student, is being kicked by every single country in Europe. And I don't think that is correct. I think we should go back to doing what we do best. Rede with non-Europeans

You're confusing bipolar disorder with dissociative personality disorder, - not to worry it is a COMMON mistake.

most doctors think, nowadays, though that dissociative personalities disorder is either very rare, or iatrogenic.

PS: I've always been taught that one should have a tiny wee bit of respect for those who've reached a certain age. A wise man understands why. So mind your manners. Are they not taught in the whatever country(ies) you hail from?

"Portugal, the good student, is being kicked by every single country in Europe."
Pedrophool, stop whining. It is so emberrassing. Didn't you always claim that the Portuguese are mighty heroes????
So what happened? Did someone cut of your collective b*lls?
Perhaps Frau Merkel? Schnipp, Schnapp, ab... Har Har Har

That the attackers merely spotted the flaws before anyone else is the main reason I keep boringly repeating for over three years that EZ countries were foolish enough to open their flanks to an speculating attack by being profligate.

And also that I am mild supporter of the Euro that was introduced a tad too early a bit too hastily.

I've written this sentence so many times the text processor I use to write a priori my posts (eyesight obliges...) immediately finishes it off when I start typing it.

Long enough time has elapsed for me to make public a rumour that made the rounds in 2001? 2002? in some select political-cum-financial circles in three large capitals in Europe(and a gentleman of the high quality press).

In a nutshell: that the then prime ministers of France and Germany (probably others) had persuaded the Portuguese prime minister to go spend freely to test whether Brussels authorities would respond forcefully enough against Portugal if she broke the Maastricht criteria.

The objective being to check whether "Brussels" would have the wherewithal to punish seriously the offenders against the Maastricht criteria.

"Brussel's" response against Portugal's sin was effective but damn slow and that allowed both France and Germany to put their spoon in the soup as well. They ran afoul of Maastricht for a while.

Obviously, I am not sure if this is true. I'm not even sure I believe it. It looks too damn close to a conspiracy theory for me to let my guards down against of this type of rumour.

All I can say is that the people who let it reach me were very well placed in the circuit and that all facts, including the subsequent personal career of the then Portuguese prime minister seemed to fit the description of events.

Curiously, many years later he was interviewed by Sir David Frost and, by pure chance, I watched it.

Either I was still influenced by the rumour of many years before or he did in fact semi-confirm it in one of his replies. And David Frost definitely had something similar in mind when he asked him the question that prompted his reply.

Sorry my stile has become very guarded and "over-worded". Matters of this nature, even over a decade later, don't allow for simple short clear statements.

I thought you would like to hear of this and I feel now at ease to publish it.

Make of it what you will.

On GBP and its status.

I do not wish at this juncture to say anything that may lead to a very inconvenient event for us all.

I've made all my silly mathematical and statistical comments on the matter and issued all the warnings I, a simple run-of-the-mill poster in one of the most read but less competent threads in the Economist, can issue.

Recent data and unusual symbolic events seem to bear my standing that we all need to be very cautious.

All my mild warnings end up with me being called Anglophobe, the last thing in the world I would ever be, but that doesn't worry me.

What does is that this over-reaction from idiots and well informed posters alike may be the confirmation of my worries.

After all my silly maths have always up to now proved reasonably right.

Even my strong distrust of rating agencies to which you have to pay attention for lack of alternative.

If you allow me to be sarcastic, I swear I have no friends in Australia's Federal Court, yet they have passed exactly the same verdict as I.

Don't trust the bug....Sorry, nearly lapsed into old fashioned Manchester shop floor not very polite slang.

Again make of it what you will.

Don't forget markets are the best tool humankind has invented up to now to manage economies.

But that they can mislead and be manipulated, recent experience has proved they can.

Until proper authorities can expurgate markets of the organized crime that have almost taken them over we all have to be extremely careful.

Don't forget the City handles 37% of the world's forex trade and Britain has a 4% share of the world's GDP. This is 9:1 ratio.

As I say in a another post: The USA, Germany, France, Borduria and Syldavia,..., all have ratios around or well below 1:1. Singapore is the exception.

Caveat emptor! and again make of this what you will.

I may be over worried by my silly maths, stats and the old rumour mill.

The "profligate" argument does not explain everything though. When the markets attack, they attack to seize profit.

They attacked the weaker member nations, becasue the monetary infrastructure was flawed by design. The US is profligate, and yet, we are able to spend our way out of recession time and time again. Never mind the doom and gloom sayers. Our low borrowing costs prove otherwise.

So, the fledgling ECB's powers will continue to grow, the monetary policy will need to become more cohesive and proactive, and the focus will eventually be changed to growth, as the Debt to GDP ratio is what really matters here.

I am sure the IMF agrees, they can not afford to obsess over debt for the poorer economies, and only care if the Northern European nations' GDP grows. This would be foolish, and a fatally flawed strategy, that will eventually result in political upheaval.

The markets have already tipped their hand, and it appears that they agree, that the focus going forward, will need to be on sustainable growth.

Krugman's school of economic thought has proven to be correct, not just for the US, but for Europe as well.

No member nation will ever break free of the markets. It certainly is not in their economic interest to do so. You are confusing sound global economic policy with nearsighted fringe political ideology. Central Banks are independent for a reason.

Bullshit! Only those governments will steadily "whine" about the "devious" markets that need them to finance their overspending. Central banks should have nothing to do with the various governments spending habits. Way too many candidates seek power through short lived campaign promises, regardless who pays the bill in the end.
Soon you'll have "bad" governments and "good" politicians in the eyes of dumb voters; the former are the ones that try to economize their state's finances, and the latter are the ones who promise the same dumb voters 'the pie in the sky'.
All states that are in trouble now are entities where charlatan-politicians were far too long able to pussyfoot around a dumb electorate.

After you replied to my answer at sanmartinian I read up on your mindset. So, it's :ol' zorbas" in a new sheep's skin.

You don't have to tell your Greek countrymen to follow "Krugman's school of economic thought". They did it already and are badmouthing the Germans now as 'Nazis' since "running out of other peoples money" (in a Thatcherite sense) they simply can't continue with their uncured "Krugmania" ... when the German taxpayers refuse to act as "evil zero-down-subprime-lenders" to an irresponsible, bankrupt borrower.

If Drachma & Co. honestly believe they can become the American Eagle, then they'll find out quickly that they're in reality merely a replica of Greek mythology's Icarus, flying too close to the sun when attempting escape King Austerity . . . despite warnings from la.výritý.

Your states analogy cannot be applied to Europe in this global economic context, too myopic an interpretation you see. Dumb and dumber electorates are itching to be pandered to everywhere.

Your balance the budget politicians are merely scratching your itch. They have no intention of balancing anything, and good it's thing too, as austerity has proven itself to be a miserable failure.

As a member of a fringe ideological party, you are simply unable to see what is best for our nation/union. All the more reason why Central Banks must remain independent of your unenlightened influence.

Monetary policy is way to important an endeavor to leave to your likes, becasue you don't know what you're doing. You think you do, and seem confident in your beliefs, but the hard cold truth is, you're utterly out of your depths here. Most of us are. At least some us have the good sense to admit it.

You know, Hitler thought he knew what he was doing too, right up until the very end. He insisted, there was no way he could be wrong. It was all the German people's fault you see. They didn't listen to him closely enough.

Truth be told, they should have listened to him less closely, much earlier on in the political process.

Although a little house cleaning of the markets to get rid of the criminal forces that took them over mainly in the City, Wall Street and Australia (are there any more examples needed?) would be a big help for the next decade, too.