Thank you for the data on the Margherita coarse grind pepperoni. I went back and took a look of the photos of the pepperoni slices from the cheese and pepperoni pizza that you purchased recently from Buddy's, at Reply 525 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=21559.msg225589#msg225589, and there appear to be similarities between the two pepperoni slices shown in the photos. However, we may have to await your using some of the Margherita coarse grind pepperoni slices on a Buddy's clone pizza to see if they are the same product. If you have a good taste memory, that might help you compare the Margherita pepperoni slices you received today with what was used on the Buddy's cheese and pepperoni pizza. You might even be able to tell strictly by appearance. There is nothing that says that Buddy's has to stay with any particular brand of pepperoni. However, I would imagine that all of the Buddy's locations are supposed to use the same pepperoni product. That ensures consistency of the Buddy's product from one store to another, just like the big pizza chains, and may also save Buddy's money.

Thank you for the data on the Margherita coarse grind pepperoni. I went back and took a look of the photos of the pepperoni slices from the cheese and pepperoni pizza that you purchased recently from Buddy's, at Reply 525 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=21559.msg225589#msg225589, and there appear to be similarities between the two pepperoni slices shown in the photos. However, we may have to await your using some of the Margherita coarse grind pepperoni slices on a Buddy's clone pizza to see if they are the same product. If you have a good taste memory, that might help you compare the Margherita pepperoni slices you received today with what was used on the Buddy's cheese and pepperoni pizza. You might even be able to tell strictly by appearance. There is nothing that says that Buddy's has to stay with any particular brand of pepperoni. However, I would imagine that all of the Buddy's locations are supposed to use the same pepperoni product. That ensures consistency of the Buddy's product from one store to another, just like the big pizza chains, and may also save Buddy's money.

I look forward to the results you achieve when you try the Margherita coarse grind pepperoni.

Peter

Peter,

I also went back and looked at the pictures I posted at Reply 529 and Reply 530 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg225589.html#msg225589 (especially the pepperoni slices in both of those posts). The pepperoni slices do look the same to me even if the pepperoni that was partially baked on the Buddy’s pizza doesn’t exactly look the same. I noted what looked like fat, or whatever it was in those pictures and also the pictures I posted today. In those photos I did post pictures of the weighs of those pepperoni slices. Do you think the Margherita coarse grind pepperoni could have lost that much weight from the partial bake of the Buddy’s pizza compared to the weighs I posted today for the Margherita coarse grind pepperoni fresh without being baked?

I think I do have a good taste memory and if it serving me well, the Margherita pepperoni I received today tasted the same with a nice spicy afterbite. I also think the appearance of the pepperoni I received today does look the same. Since Steve won’t be at market on Monday, I will let him also taste the Margherita coarse grind pepperoni to see if he also thinks it is the same pepperoni the following week. I also want to give him some of the Margherita coarse grind pepperoni to try on some of his Buddy’s clone pizzas.

I also like the looks of Hunt boys Detroiter pizza. I didn’t search for their Detroiter pizzas before. I have to try a Buddy’s clone Detroiter pizza one of these days.

If I find time to make another emergency dough without salt on Monday morning, do you think that would be the best way to test the Margherita pepperoni? At least that way it could give some more data for a final bake weight. I also want to get the two sauces ready Sunday evening to try. I would like to try the Margherita coarse grind pepperoni at home in an emergency dough without salt, but don’t think time will allow me to do that this weekend.

I also wanted to ask you if I should still use 1.25 ounces of the Margherita coarse grind pepperoni when I try it? I don’t know what you thought about the weighs of the 20 slices of pepperoni. Do you think that weight is too high?

I also went back and looked at the pictures I posted at Reply 529 and Reply 530 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg225589.html#msg225589 (especially the pepperoni slices in both of those posts). The pepperoni slices do look the same to me even if the pepperoni that was partially baked on the Buddy’s pizza doesn’t exactly look the same. I noted what looked like fat, or whatever it was in those pictures and also the pictures I posted today. In those photos I did post pictures of the weights of those pepperoni slices. Do you think the Margherita coarse grind pepperoni could have lost that much weight from the partial bake of the Buddy’s pizza compared to the weights I posted today for the Margherita coarse grind pepperoni fresh without being baked?

It is difficult to do "before" and "after" weighings of pepperoni slices because the "before" weights can vary so widely, as you noted in Reply 649 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg228577.html#msg228577. However, I suspect that the pepperoni slices render some of its fat content while trapped below the cheese. So, the pepperoni slices removed from the pizza after baking might weigh less as a result.

If I find time to make another emergency dough without salt on Monday morning, do you think that would be the best way to test the Margherita pepperoni? At least that way it could give some more data for a final bake weight.

I think that is as good a time as any. What we have been doing on this thread for the past two months is to try to replicate a typical Buddy's cheese and pepperoni pizza. Now you have a chance to see if the Margherita coarse grind pepperoni is another piece of the puzzle.

I also wanted to ask you if I should still use 1.25 ounces of the Margherita coarse grind pepperoni when I try it? I don’t know what you thought about the weighs of the 20 slices of pepperoni. Do you think that weight is too high?

Because the weights of the Margherita coarse grind pepperoni slices vary so widely, I think I would just use 20 slices on your Buddy's 4-square clone pizza and not worry about the total weight. That will vary from one pizza to another, although the variances won't be so great in any single case as to pose a problem. We are already contending with variations in the amounts of sauce and cheese, so the pepperoni is just another variable. About the only thing that is fairly constant is the amount of dough, and who knows how accurate Buddy's is when portioning out and scaling their dough balls? I think the only other constant is the salt, which I think is perhaps zero, just like the oil and sugar, which are also zero.

It is difficult to do "before" and "after" weighings of pepperoni slices because the "before" weights can vary so widely, as you noted in Reply 649 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg228577.html#msg228577. However, I suspect that the pepperoni slices render some of its fat content while trapped below the cheese. So, the pepperoni slices removed from the pizza after baking might weigh less as a result.

I think that is as good a time as any. What we have been doing on this thread for the past two months is to try to replicate a typical Buddy's cheese and pepperoni pizza. Now you have a chance to see if the Margherita coarse grind pepperoni is another piece of the puzzle. Because the weights of the Margherita coarse grind pepperoni slices vary so widely, I think I would just use 20 slices on your Buddy's 4-square clone pizza and not worry about the total weight. That will vary from one pizza to another, although the variances won't be so great in any single case as to pose a problem. We are already contending with variations in the amounts of sauce and cheese, so the pepperoni is just another variable. About the only thing that is fairly constant is the amount of dough, and who knows how accurate Buddy's is when portioning out and scaling their dough balls? I think the only other constant is the salt, which I think is perhaps zero, just like the oil and sugar, which are also zero.

Peter

Peter,

I found it interesting when I weighed those pepperoni slices how widely they varied in weight, even though they looked the same to me with just looking at the pepperoni slice with my eyes. I also weighed 3 of the whole packages of the Margherita coarse grind pepperoni and they also varied in weight.In case you might be interested they weighed 3 lbs. 7.4 ounces, 3 lbs. 1 ounce and 3 lbs. 1.7 ounces. Since there was no name on the packages I guess since they were just samples the weights could vary. I wouldn’t think they would sell the Margherita coarse grind pepperoni that way.

If I find time to mix an emergency dough on Monday morning without salt I would like to see if the Margherita coarse grind pepperoni is another piece of the puzzle. I will just use 20 slices of the Margherita coarse grind pepperoni since you suggested that. I know it will be another variable in addition to the cheese and sauce amounts, but I agree with you that maybe Buddy’s might not really portioning out their dough balls right on accurate scales. I saw when my local pizzerias different times used scales to weigh out ingredients for their doughs, they were just like my Taylor scale at market that I used to weigh out cheeses. I know that scale isn’t nearly as accurate as my bigger scale at market, or like my scales at home. I wonder how Buddy’s even gets its Nutrition Facts figured out since they just free do so many things.

Nutritional information provided is based on Buddy's standardized recipes, representative values provided by suppliers, published resources and using industry standard software. A number of factors may affect the actual nutritional values for each product, including the fact that our menu items are handcrafted and may be customized, variations in serving size, preparation techniques, ingredient substitutions and supply sources. Accordingly, Buddy's cannot guarantee that the information provided is completely accurate as it relates to the prepared menu items in every Buddy's location. Some Buddy's locations may serve menu items which are not listed on this nutritional information page.

Nutritional information provided is based on Buddy's standardized recipes, representative values provided by suppliers, published resources and using industry standard software. A number of factors may affect the actual nutritional values for each product, including the fact that our menu items are handcrafted and may be customized, variations in serving size, preparation techniques, ingredient substitutions and supply sources. Accordingly, Buddy's cannot guarantee that the information provided is completely accurate as it relates to the prepared menu items in every Buddy's location. Some Buddy's locations may serve menu items which are not listed on this nutritional information page.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for the link that tells about how Buddy’s provides Nutritional information for its products. I did look at the Nutrition Facts before, but never read the bottom statement. It all looks like a slippery slope to me in trying to figure out what to do and how to analyze what might need to be done. At least you can figure out the Nutrition Facts and how they relate to the Buddy’s pepperoni and cheese pizzas, but I don’t think we will ever know truly what goes on without insider information. There are just too many variables.

I tried something a little different today when mixing the dough. I mixed on speed one until some of the flour was incorporated, then changed to speed three and mixed until the dough was all on the flat beater. I didn’t use the dough hook. I also used water that was colder than normal to see if that would mix the dough okay. It seemed to work in making the dough more manageable when cutting, scaling and balling, but will have to wait and see how the dough ferments tomorrow and how the final Buddy’s clone pizzas turn out. The final dough temperature was 60.2 degrees F. I left the dough balls out for an hour at 60 degrees F for them to start to ferment a little, before placing them in the pizza prep fridge.

The second picture is of the mixer bowl to show there wasn’t much of anything left in it after gathering the dough out in one scoop with my hands.

I mixed 125 grams of 7/11 tomato sauce with 125 grams of Saporito Super Heavy pizza sauce and also mixed 90 grams of water into the tomato sauces. There didn’t seem to be enough water to make the tomato sauce look as thin as Buddy’s, so I added another 35 grams of water. I added only oregano and pepper to the tomato sauces and water. It tastes just about like Buddy’s extra sauce.

Buddy’s extra sauce might even be a little bit thinner than what I made. The color seem to match up pretty good with Buddy’s sauce. Buddy’s extra sauce is on the left.

Buddy’s extra sauce might even be a little bit thinner than what I made. The color seem to match up pretty good with Buddy’s sauce. Buddy’s extra sauce is on the left.

Norma,

I could be wrong but I would imagine that Buddy's workers who make their sauce use full cans of tomatoes and water and do no weighing. As it so happens, a #10 can of the Saporito Super Heavy Pizza Sauce with Fresh Basil weighs two ounces more than a #10 can of the 7/11s. In your case, using 150 grams of the two Stanislaus tomato products and 150 grams of water is a pretty close scaled down version of using one each of #10 cans of the two Stanislaus tomato products and one can of water. Maybe the empty cans of the two tomato products are rinsed with a bit of extra water that is then added to the sauce to thin it even further. Of course, Buddy's might be using some other combination of tomato products and water that results in a somewhat thinner sauce.

Out of curiosity, I did a little research to see when Stanislaus as a company was founded. It was in 1942 (http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/private/snapshot.asp?privcapId=30745958), or four years before Buddy's started making pizzas. So it is possible that Buddy's has been a long and loyal customer of Stanislaus. From what I have read, Stanislaus is a very good company, with many accounts that absolutely refuse to go with other suppliers even if the pricing is better.

I could be wrong but I would imagine that Buddy's workers who make their sauce use full cans of tomatoes and water and do no weighing. As it so happens, a #10 can of the Saporito Super Heavy Pizza Sauce with Fresh Basil weighs two ounces more than a #10 can of the 7/11s. In your case, using 150 grams of the two Stanislaus tomato products and 150 grams of water is a pretty close scaled down version of using one each of #10 cans of the two Stanislaus tomato products and one can of water. Maybe the empty cans of the two tomato products are rinsed with a bit of extra water that is then added to the sauce to thin it even further. Of course, Buddy's might be using some other combination of tomato products and water that results in a somewhat thinner sauce.

Out of curiosity, I did a little research to see when Stanislaus as a company was founded. It was in 1942 (http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/private/snapshot.asp?privcapId=30745958), or four years before Buddy's started making pizzas. So it is possible that Buddy's has been a long and loyal customer of Stanislaus. From what I have read, Stanislaus is a very good company, with many accounts that absolutely refuse to go with other suppliers even if the pricing is better.

Peter

Peter,

I also can imagine that Buddy’s workers who make the sauce probably would use full cans of the tomatoes and water and do no weighing. I know I don’t weigh my water for my tomato sauce and just know by adding water, when it is about the right consistency. I didn’t know that a #10 can of the Saporito Super Heavy pizza Sauce with basil weighs two more ounces that a #10 can of the 7/11s. I do rinse my cans with water, so I can imagine that Buddy’s might do that too to get all the sauce they can out of the cans.

I didn’t know when the Stanislaus company was founded. 1942 is a long time ago. I also agree that it is possible that Buddy’s might be a long and loyal customers of Stanislaus. I think that Stanislaus is a very good company. I have used their tomato products since I have started making pizza at market. I do like other tomato product brands, but think I will always stay with Stanislaus for market use.

I mixed the Buddy’s clone emergency dough with no salt this morning with only the flat beater in my Kitchen Aid mixer. The dough was briefly mixed two times with the flat beater for only about 2 minutes for a total time in both mixes and on speed 4 both times. The final dough temperature was 86.8 degrees F and it was balled right after 6:45 AM this morning. Poppy seeds were placed on the dough ball. On the 3rd picture it can be seen how much the dough ball had fermented until about 9:45 AM this morning. It was then floured a little, opened and put into the steel pan that was oiled with Canola oil. At about 11:30 AM it was made into a pizza. I weighed the 20 slices of the Margherita Coarse Sliced Pepperoni and they weighed 1.383 ounces. I also weighed out 8 ounces of the blends of AMPI mild white cheddar and two of my mozzarellas. 4 ounces of the combined 7/11 sauce and the Saporito Extra Heavy sauce with Fresh Bail, pepper, oregano and water was used to dress this pizza.

After the bake the pizza weighed 592 grams.

I thought the Buddy’s clone emergency dough without salt and the Margherita Coarse Slice Pepperoni with the sauce blend made a very good pizza. The sauce blend tasted very fresh on the emergency Buddy’s pizza.

The spacing of the poppy seeds in the photo you showed suggests a rise in the Buddy's emergency clone dough of about 536%, or better than a quintupling of the dough. If that is correct, than it suggests that the dough can tolerate a lot of rise without permanent damage. It also tells us that the dough can be used within a fairly short window, maybe considerably shorter than the five-hour window you used.

Based on the numbers you provided, the weight loss of the pizza was about 6.71%.

Buddy’s extra sauce might even be a little bit thinner than what I made. The color seem to match up pretty good with Buddy’s sauce. Buddy’s extra sauce is on the left.

Norma,

I am away from home for the Xmas holiday and don't have my calculations in front of me but if the amount of water is increased, it will increase the amount of sauce and, at the same time, the amount of salt and sodium will decrease in value. If my memory is correct, the net effect of this is to move the sodium nutrition number a bit closer to the Buddy's sodium Nutrition data. If Buddy's is using the Stanislaus SuperDolce tomato product, the results shouldn't change that much since the SuperDolce product in the #10 can size weighs only two ounces more than the #10 can size of the Saporito Heavy Pizza Sauce with Fresh Basil (or four more ounces than the #10 7/11s).Peter

The spacing of the poppy seeds in the photo you showed suggests a rise in the Buddy's emergency clone dough of about 536%, or better than a quintupling of the dough. If that is correct, than it suggests that the dough can tolerate a lot of rise without permanent damage. It also tells us that the dough can be used within a fairly short window, maybe considerably shorter than the five-hour window you used.

Based on the numbers you provided, the weight loss of the pizza was about 6.71%.

Can you compare the latest pizza with earlier versions?

Peter

Peter,

That sure was a lot, if the Buddy’s emergency clone dough fermented that much. It didn’t seem to me that any damage was done to the dough. I have four slices to reheat and will report on them when I do the reheat. I wanted to bring some slices home for a reheat to see if the sauce changes any in the reheat. I think the dough could have been used a lot sooner. I would have even put the dough ball into the steel pan sooner if I wasn’t busy making other pizzas.

To compare what I thought of the Buddy’s emergency clone dough pizza today, I thought it was very good. The bottom crust had a nice crispiness and the caramelized edges are always good. The crumb was good and light. I really liked the taste of the Margherita Coarse Slice Pepperoni and also the blend of the sauces. I even liked only pepper and oregano as the ingredients in the sauce blend. I didn’t use any salt in the tomato blend this week. The taste of the sauce was a lot fresher tasting then when on the Buddy’s pizza I purchased. I think the double bake somehow made the sauce on Buddy’s pizza change.

I really don’t know if I like this Buddy’s emergency clone pizza better than last week though.

I will report on the other Buddy’s clone pizzas I made tomorrow or the next day, but somehow I am not getting as much lift in them during the bake (even with using the Hatco Unit for tempering).

Thank you for telling me what the weight loss was from the final bake.

I am away from home for the Xmas holiday and don't have my calculations in front of me but if the amount of water is increased, it will increase the amount of sauce and, at the same time, the amount of salt and sodium will decrease in value. If my memory is correct, the net effect of this is to move the sodium nutrition number a bit closer to the Buddy's sodium Nutrition data. If Buddy's is using the Stanislaus SuperDolce tomato product, the results shouldn't change that much since the SuperDolce product in the #10 can size weighs only two ounces more than the #10 can size of the Saporito Heavy Pizza Sauce with Fresh Basil (or four more ounces than the #10 7/11s).Peter

Peter,

I know we are trying to decrease the amount of sodium (salt) closer to Buddy‘s Nutrition Facts. I also know if the amount of water is increased it would increase the amount of sauce and the amount of salt and sodium would decrease in value. I didn’t know if Buddy’s is using the Stanislaus Super Docle tomato product that the results would not change that much. I didn’t how much the Stanislaus Super Docle weighed either.

Do you want me to try and get a sample of the Stanislaus Super Docle tomato product, or for now just keep experimenting with what I am?

Do you want me to try and get a sample of the Stanislaus Super Docle tomato product, or for now just keep experimenting with what I am?

Norma,

It is up to you as to whether you should give the SuperDolce product a try. However, if we assume that the Buddy's Original Pizza Sauce contains noticeable tomato skin and fresh basil (added at the Stanislaus processing facility), then most realistically that means the 7/11s combined with either the Saporito Super Heavy Pizza Sauce with Fresh Basil or the Super Dolce product. Otherwise, it would have to be some customized product from Stanislaus. I don't really see any other possibility looking at the standard tomato products at the Stanislaus website that are intended to be used to make pizza sauce. I suppose that Buddy's could be using both the Saporito Super Heavy Pizza Sauce and the Super Dolce product along with the 7/11s, but that would strike me as illogical. I also don't think that Buddy's annual sales are high enough to warrant a customized product from Stanislaus.

I think an interesting comparison against your Buddy's sample of their Original Pizza Sauce would be the 7/11s combined with the Saporito Super Heavy Pizza Sauce with Fresh Basil on the one hand, and the 7/11s combined with the Super Dolce product on the other hand, with the proper amount of water in both cases. Such comparisons might be instructive on the matter of the sweetness element of the Buddy's Original Pizza Sauce.

It is up to you as to whether you should give the SuperDolce product a try. However, if we assume that the Buddy's Original Pizza Sauce contains noticeable tomato skin and fresh basil (added at the Stanislaus processing facility), then most realistically that means the 7/11s combined with either the Saporito Super Heavy Pizza Sauce with Fresh Basil or the Super Dolce product. Otherwise, it would have to be some customized product from Stanislaus. I don't really see any other possibility looking at the standard tomato products at the Stanislaus website that are intended to be used to make pizza sauce. I suppose that Buddy's could be using both the Saporito Super Heavy Pizza Sauce and the Super Dolce product along with the 7/11s, but that would strike me as illogical. I also don't think that Buddy's annual sales are high enough to warrant a customized product from Stanislaus.

I think an interesting comparison against your Buddy's sample of their Original Pizza Sauce would be the 7/11s combined with the Saporito Super Heavy Pizza Sauce with Fresh Basil on the one hand, and the 7/11s combined with the Super Dolce product on the other hand, with the proper amount of water in both cases. Such comparisons might be instructive on the matter of the sweetness element of the Buddy's Original Pizza Sauce.

Peter

Peter,

I understand if we assume that Buddy’s Original Pizza Sauce contains noticeable tomato skins and fresh basil the that probably means that the 7/11s with the Saporito Heavy Pizza Sauce with the Fresh Basil or the Super Dolce product with the Saporito Heavy Pizza Sauce with the Fresh Basil would be used. I really don’t think Buddy’s is big enough to use more than 2 sauces, but then we never know.

I will try to get a sample of the Super Dolce product to do the comparison with what I am trying now. I think I will have to add more water next week to get the 7/11s and the Saporito Heavy Pizza Sauce thinner. I also noticed today that the sauce tasted a lot more like Buddy’s extra sauce today. That probably was from letting it sit overnight.

This is the report on some of the other Buddy’s clone pizzas made yesterday that had 0.60% IDY in the dough formulation for a one day cold ferment. I had wanted to try 0.80% IDY for a bigger batch of dough, but forgot to figure out that out on the expanded dough calculation tool before I went to market on Sunday to mix the dough, so I had to use the print out sheet I had at market using 0.60% IDY. I am not sure if I had better results when using 0.80% in a one day cold fermented Buddy’s clone dough, but I think I did.

The first doughs were tempered in the Hatco Unit at 105 degrees F and the first Buddy’s clone pizzas were ready to be made at about 10:15 AM yesterday. I didn’t weigh the 20 slices coarse grind pepperoni on the two pizzas I made with pepperoni, but the weighs after the final bake were 585 grams for the first Buddy’s clone pizza made with the coarse grind pepperoni and the second Buddy’s clone pizza made with the coarse grind pepperoni was 570 grams. I think there were too many variables in the two pizzas though to really think those weighs would matter. For the first pizza 4 ounces of sauce was added after the bake and the second pizza the pepperoni was put on top of the other dressings. 8 ounces of AMPI mild cheddar and the two mozzarellas were scaled. All the same doughs were scaled at 9 ounces.

I also made some veggie Buddy’s clone pizzas and some cheese Buddy‘s clone pizzas, but didn’t take any pictures of those.

I did bake two Buddy’s clone pizzas at one time yesterday and that seemed to work well.

What I am concerned about is that I am not getting enough lift in the bake with these Buddy’s clone pizzas. My customers do like them and seem interested in the Buddy’s clone pizzas, but I want to try and get more lift during the bake.

I was also thinking over about how much the Buddy’s clone emergency dough fermented by the measurements of the poppy seeds spacings and wonder if since this is a higher hydration dough and since I used a bigger plastic container yesterday to put the dough ball in if somehow the poppy seeds spacing might have been flawed, since the dough isn’t really balled tightly to begin with. I would think if the dough ball would have been balled tighter maybe I wouldn’t have the same results when using the poppy seed trick. I could be wrong though on thinking that though.

The last attempt on the Buddy’s clone pizza was put into a Buddy’s pizza box.

Dave, my friend at market, gave me a holiday card made by him yesterday. He was inspired by Gary Larson among other cartoonists in some of his many drawings and cartoons. Dave always makes me laugh with his "little off" sense of humor. Dave is a man of many talents. Dave really likes the Buddy’s clone pizzas.