KDE 3.0 Beta2 was announced today after a delay due to a variety of problems. This new release should provide a great opportunity for those interested in helping hunt down bugs or simply seeing where the future of KDE is headed. Read the full announcement for details. "One of the major improvements brought by KDE 3.0 over KDE 2.2 is the Javascript/DHTML support in Konqueror. The DOM 2 model, used to render an HTML page, is now mostly implemented, and changes to the DOM tree are handled much better. The Javascript bindings and support is almost complete, faster and more stable than in KDE 2. These changes result in a much-improved rendering of dynamic websites and is something users will immediately appreciate."

I tested KDE-3 Beta 2 on Mandrake-8.1.
Here are the issues I encountered:

-KDE3 is much slower than KDE-2.2.2. Maybe packages aren't greatly optimized.
-When installing from Mandrake RPMS, Kde-Pim is missing. Is it normal ?
-Mandrake RPMS put a kde3.sh file in /etc/profile.d that sets the path to /opt/kde3/bin:$PATH. The problem is that, now, when you try to use KDE2, KDE3 apps are loaded instead of KDE3's ones. You have to remove this script from /etc/profile.d in order to have KDE2 work again.
-The desktop doesn't seem to refresh 95% of the time. For example, if you drag a file from ~/ and drop it to ~/Desktop, most of the time it won't appear on the desktop and refreshing it by yourself won't work. You have to restart kdesktop for the file to show up on the desktop.
-The KDE styles don't work anymore but that's a known bug.
-In kde-look.org, on the main list of items, the thumbnails are 90% covered by the text at their right.
-In dot.kde.org, you can notice a big bug when trying to post a comment: Click on the "name" field for example. Then press "Tab". The focus doesn't go to the "Email" field. Now click on the textarea and write some text. Now press "Enter" to go next line.... oups, it brings you to "http://dot.kde.org/searchForm" like if you had pressed the "search" button at the bottom of the page.
-Pressing CTRL-A in a textarea selects everything... except the text in the textarea. Maybe a problem with keyboard focus in textareas.
-There are some display bugs. For example, when the mouse cursor passes over a folder icon, there is a nice animation. But this animation seems to move the folder to the left, which is weird. Also, some icons seem to blink sometimes when the mouse passes over them.

Apart from those problems, mostly due to the fact that it's a Beta, there are a LOT of improvements that make me hesitate between this buggy beta and the stable 2.2.2...

Actually, the KDE style not appearing is a bug that is inherited from Qt. Qt3 introduced a new type of styling engine and KDE switched to it (don't ask me why, jump on kde-devel and ask). Qt3 also has preferences for each user (stored in ~/.qt), that includes all of the styles that Qt and KDE applications use. In order for KDE applications to use the KDE styles (actually, they are Qt styles and don't rely on KDE stuff at all therefor being compatible with Qt-only applications as well) you need to run 'qtconfig' (make sure $QTDIR/bin is in your $PATH) and go to "library paths" and add $KDEDIR/lib/kde3/plugins to the list of plugins (of course translate $KDEDIR to your KDE directory). Have fun :)

Why? Because KDE had to because the old Qt styling engine doesn't exists anymore. I find it great that Qt only programs can/will use KDE's styles, e.g. it's possible to run Qt Designer with KDE's .NET style applied.

I'd really like to switch to a serious distribution if there was one in GPL ! Each time I try Mandrake packages, there are BIG problems that don't appear in other packages ! And the first of all is speed. Could anyone explain me how they manage to make so bad packages ?

What part of SuSE bothers you? I'm not a guru on the licesing that SuSE used, but I'm looking at the source to yast2 on the CD. Quickly!!!! Go run out to your local BestBuy and buy it!!!! QUICK!!! :) (btw, Yast2 owns you :) )

Probably in another 6 months, who knows? :) 7.3 is recent enough. Yast2's online patcher can get you up-to-date quickly anyways. It has KDE 2.2.2 on there and a few security fixes. Takes me a few minutes on my DSL

The parts about using tab and hitting enter in textareas is apparently (according to a posting I saw in kde-devel back on Feb 04) due to KHTML
having broken focus handling.

This is the one set of bugs that keeps me from sticking on KDE3 for normal use - I spend too much time entering data into forms as part of my daily routine.

I'm surprised this bug has been present for so long (been in for months now, I think) - I'd have thought it would have affected too many people to have been left in.

I don't know if it's related, but the one other annoyance I keep running into with KDE3 is trying to select and delete text, e.g. double-clicking the URL toolbar and hitting 'delete' to clear it. KDE3 seems to 'unselect' when I try to do that - I have to double-click select TWICE, then hit delete. Anybody know if this is related to the other focus-handling problems?

Hopefully it'll be fixed soon - I otherwise really like what I've been seeing in KDE3...

The parts about using tab and hitting enter in textareas is apparently (according to a posting I saw in kde-devel back on Feb 04) due to KHTML having broken focus handling.

This is the one set of bugs that keeps me from sticking on KDE3 for normal use - I spend too much time entering data into forms as part of my daily routine.

I'm surprised this bug has been present for so long (been in for months now, I think) - I'd have thought it would have affected too many people to have been left in.

I don't know if it's related, but the one other annoyance I keep running into with KDE3 is trying to select and delete text, e.g. double-clicking the URL toolbar and hitting 'delete' to clear it. KDE3 seems to 'unselect' when I try to do that - I have to double-click select TWICE, then hit delete. Anybody know if this is related to the other focus-handling problems?

Hopefully it'll be fixed soon - I otherwise really like what I've been seeing in KDE3...

Mandrake 8.x Beta 2 RPMs are built with debug information -- as can be easily
seen from the fact that the kdebase is 36MB and not the usual 12MB or so...
This, of course, makes things much slower, but also means that if you have any
crash reports they can be potentially more useful to developers because of
more detailed stacktraces...

Just used Konqueror to download SuSE RPMs of Beta 2 (splitview -> Drag and Drop -> it's just so comfortable :-)). Being greeted by Kandalf, launching some Applications and working with them I wonder who did that coding. Gandalf? It must be wizardry to make a beta that fly's so fast.

dunno, someone killed this reply some hours ago. you guys seriously dont think that i spent 30 mins and more writing this, that this should be a troll or something. if i want trolling i wouldnt waste so much time.

hello there,

i am mainly gnome user and migrated to gnome 2 some das ago. i must say that doing this was a hard task. i dont want to sound like a troll nor do i want to rant shit but here the problems that occoured:

- you need to install nearly all programming languages available on your system only to get gnome 2 compiled. often you ask yourself 'why?'. example gnome 2 has only 1 python file that is required to get a basic gnome 2 installation. i am no python programmer nor am i interested in python but you are forced to install python to get gnome 2 compiled because that one fucking file requires it. i mean ok gnome is a programming language independant project and i respect it. but if someone wants to code python gnome applications then its ok but i dont need to install it. so the basic target of compiling gnome 2 from CVS terribly sucks, bad planned stuff.

- gnome 2 got a shitload of new libraries and modules that you need to compile its mainly a complete BREAKUP of previous gnome 1 currently the CVS looks more than a warfield than really usable, not to mention all the problems, bugs etc. and if you look at their roadmap then gnome 2 should be done middle of march, this is exactly 30 days from today on (15 Feb. 2002). i doubt and seriously i really doubt that they get a working DESKTOP done until that time. at the end there is no TESTCASE possible.

- CVS module A requires autoconf 2.13, automake 1.3 to get the scripts set up correctly.
- CVS module B requires autoconf 2.50, automake 1.4 to get the scripts set up correctly.
- CVS module C requires autoconf 2.52, automake 1.5 to get the scripts set up correctly.

seriously well planned. not to mention that there is no single letter written in the README's or INSTALL files that at least detail the requirements correctly. no you need to play trivia with the configure.in files. not to mention that the buildscripts are so broken at the moment that a lot of autogenerated files must be made manually e.g. make gnome-mokka.h only to get the file.

now result:

if i compare the above stuff with the current CVS of KDE3 and QT3 then i must say 'well it takes some hours to compile but at least it compiles' even the testphase for kde 3 seem to be longer for me than that for gnome 2. i think that after KDE 3 comes finally out its probably the better decission for people who wants a desktop.

issue commercial companies:

attentive readers of gnome mailinglist will find out that a lot of SUN people behave like they were owners of GNOME. e.g. you get strange looking emails from them with directives and orders. example: 'we want this and we want that' sure if they pay fine for gnome then why not. same for ximian and their sick roadmap with .NET i mean a lot of gnome developers got so pissed that they wanted to cut off the head of miguel de icaza because of the shit shouting out on reports and other crap.

issue evolution:

evolution is a nice pim for gnome, probably the best on the market right now but it has a lot of issues. the new current CVS uses .NET technology already because they added some more dependencies to it like SOUP.

gnome development community itself:

i havent see so many people on one place that carry their nose that high in the air i wonder how they still see their own road when they walk. hope none of them hit a wall by mistake. mainly patches welcome but stay out of our community. no ? you dont want to stay out ? you are a troll +b !*ruediger*@* (this is a fake ident) but as i always said pride comes before the fall.

gtk 2 matures gnome, the gimp matures gnome:

no not today but i see it comming, all these people hung out on the same channel and influences them. a lot of people dont like desktops and really get pissed by the idea that they cant use simple gtk applications anymore because of the big dependency. well oki yes.. yes... yes you can say, hum install packs i dont care but thats not the point a lot of these people are EXPERTS (well no one is really stupid if he/she decides for linux, so its no need to make people more stupid in the public as they in reality are) besides its a known and most used phrase of the gnome developers "why do you want to compile, a normal user should use RPM's or DEB's".. excuse me isnt it open source ? like SOURCECODE ? like 'i want to tweak' ? so why the fuck does some of the 'usability sun or redhat suckers' come up with that shit ? either help or shut the fuck up.

oki now some sentences to kde:

well i always eye on kde and to say the truth, 'yes kde is more usable' it is better thought, better planned and kde 3 offers programs already that you can use for daily work. look at gnome after the gnome 2 release comes out, then where are the apps ? they still needs to get ported (if not dead already) i mean i have a nice sweat desktop and a shit on it. using nautilus to watch pron pictures all the day is not what i call serious work. kde 3 comes with so many applications, more than my heart can carry. but on the otherhand kde has some sideeffects that makes me avoid using it. e.g. no 'the gimp' i dont like the idea (i am selfspeaking here) to mix widgetsets, thats what i have done 7-8 years back on linux and it made me sick. i want a unified desktop (thats the reason for a desktop) and i want unified applications. now kde offers a lot of applications. but the reason why people more and more decide to use gnome instead of kde is simple because of the gimp and because of the possiblility to hack in 'C'. at least they are my reasons. but neverthless KDE 3 will make it. now why comes that a gnome user says this. its simple because of all the applications.

now i tested gnome 2 what do i get. nothing. the same applications, same gnome utils, some ui refered changes but basically a gnome 1 desktop (nothing new) oki from the coding point of view a lot of shit changed (no doubt) but apps. where are the apps. its the same like buying a xbox with 1 game it makes no fun so i better go for the old well known playstation 2 with 200 games. its simple. not only that kde 3 has a longer roadmap, no there are already so many applications available for it because a lot of people had the time porting it.

you guys on KDE dont need to worry, gnome may become good but it never touches KDE you guys dont only offer KDE on the release day, you also know that people get the applications for it. unfortunately its not the case for GNOME.

right, this text should have been gone into the mainthread unfortunately the comment got in a subthread where i didnt want to have it gone. so if one wants to delete then please delete the other one far above.

I agree with you for almost everything. However, the bit about the gnome people are stuck up applies to most KDE developers too. Forget asking them for help on IRC. Maybe the mailing lists are better though, I don't know. Its not like I go to the channels demanding help, rude, etc... I'm very polite. The #kde-users channel is no better/worse than #kde (as far as level of niceness). I'm not sure what it is about a lot of OSS projects, but the developers get this holier-than-thou attitude. They become horribly condencending and just plain rude. I'm not the only one who thinks this either. I've been in #kde-users before and other people were asking for help. Perhaps the users are just too stupid compared to the god-like developers. I'm not trying to troll, I'm just complaining about the some of the KDE developers. On IRC avoid: clee, krazikiwi, and neil (although neil can answer any question he isn't very nice).
Don't avoid: Njaard

Most of this is horrible trolling. You are not a Gnome-user, I don't believe that for a second. This whole article is just one big troll. And why are you doing it? Preaching to the choir?

1. Gnome 2 isn't even in Beta yet, and you look at it like a finished product.
2. There are some very nice build-scripts that'll let you compile the thing. Have you looked at gargnome?
3. The .NET/Mono thing is just GREATLY misunderstood. It is nothing but a very good development platform, inspired by Java and c++. Unless the Gnome-developers want it, it will never become a part of Gnome. Still, it will be a very easy way of creating Gnome-applications. If Microsoft hadn't created it, everyone would be cheering for it. Besides, the worst thing that can happen, is that Microsoft extends .NET with something patented, and Windowsapps created with .NET will no longer work under Mono. Gnomeapps developed with Mono will always work, because Microsoft has no control over it.
Mono may actually make Windowsapps work perfectly under Gnome, and if it doesn't, it is still a very good development platform.

I like KDE. KDE 3.0 looks great! Trolling about Gnome is not the way to promote KDE though. Keep on improving KDE instead.. the competition between Gnome and KDE is nothing but healthy. The developers on both sides know this, but some users seem not to.

I even forgot about one thing:
"a lot of people dont like desktops and really get pissed by the idea that they cant use simple gtk applications anymore because of the big dependency. "

This is one of the worst. Gtk+-apps, you can use if you have Gtk+.
Gnome-apps require a lot of gnome-libs. This is because they are GNOME-APPLICATIONS. Not Gtk+-apps.
Using Gnome-libraries speeds up development, keeps memory-consumption low, because every app doesn't reinvent the wheel.
If you want a Gtk+-only app, instead of a Gnome-app, then write the f*cking app yourself, or wait for someone else to do it.

The EXCACT same goes for KDE or Qt-apps. Opera is a pure Qt-app and doesn't use any KDE-libs. KOffice uses lots of KDE-libs. If you want KOffice, and don't want to run KDE, then you need to install those libs. If you want a Qt-only app, instead of a KDE-app, then write the f*cking app yourself. Using KDE-libs saves app-developers time and effort, and keeps memory-consumption low, because every app doesn't reinvent the wheel.

I'm sorry about overreacting to KDE-users on this fora. Most of you do not deserve such language.

aehm. dude what are you smoking ? the fact is no matter if beta or not GNOME 2 release date is end of march its now in alpha stadium but the beta should be out already (delayed). how do you think they gonna speed up shit and get everything done within this one month ? not to mention guadreck 3 is nocking on the door. i build gnome 2 thats no problem since i am involved into gnome for many years now. this doesnt change my opinion that gnome 2 starts to suck terribly. GNOME 2 will be something between KDE 1 and KDE 2 from functionallity and usabillity.

"- you need to install nearly all programming languages available on your system only to get gnome 2 compiled."

That's not true. Python is only one programming language, you said "nearly any". And python is not required by GNOME 2.

What happens is that if python is installed, when building the libglade library the libglade-convert program will also be installed. That script is not currently required by any desktop applications in GNOME.

" - gnome 2 got a shitload of new libraries and modules that you need to compile its mainly a complete BREAKUP of previous gnome 1 currently the CVS looks more than a warfield than really usable"

Wow! Is that a sentence?

Anyway, GNOME has a lot of libraries. And so does KDE and every major desktop environment out there. Do a 'ls /opt/kde/lib' for crying out loud.

The GNOME 2 libraris don't break GNOME 1 in anyway. You can install both the GNOME 1 and 2 libraries, even in the same prefix.

"- CVS module A requires autoconf 2.13, automake 1.3 to get the scripts set up correctly.
- CVS module B requires autoconf 2.50, automake 1.4 to get the scripts set up correctly.
- CVS module C requires autoconf 2.52, automake 1.5 to get the scripts set up correctly."

" attentive readers of gnome mailinglist will find out that a lot of SUN people behave like they were owners of GNOME. e.g. you get strange looking emails from them with directives and orders. example: 'we want this and we want that' sure if they pay fine for gnome then why not. "

The archives to all GNOME mailing-lists can be found at lists.gnome.org. I dare you to point a message where a Sun employee says 'we want this and we want that'. BTW, the Sun guys have done a wonderful job so far: they've contributed largely to the GNOME panel and added accessibility support to the applications.

" evolution is a nice pim for gnome, probably the best on the market right now but it has a lot of issues. the new current CVS uses .NET technology already because they added some more dependencies to it like SOUP."

SOUP is not a .NET technology, although is used by it. Evolution from CVS (HEAD) does use a free library called soap.

" i havent see so many people on one place that carry their nose that high in the air i wonder how they still see their own road when they walk. hope none of them hit a wall by mistake. mainly patches welcome but stay out of our community. no ? you dont want to stay out ? you are a troll +b !*ruediger*@* (this is a fake ident) but as i always said pride comes before the fall."

OMG. You're just making this stuff up.

Please come back when you turn twelve.

btw: to those who are wondering, GNOME 2.0 Desktop Beta has been delayed by a few days so that it will include GLIB/GTK+ 1.3.14, that has only been release today (a few minutes ago, actually).

Why is it that when i use kde and install software, it works. But when i try and install software on gnome i get "missing this library, and missing this one, and run this to find this cause this is in a weird place and this other program cant find it because you installed it in a weird place"

KDE just works. Im sorry, but you can see a huge difference in the quality of work with KDE. Im so god damn sick of gnome asking me to hunt down libraries every fricken time i want to do something.

I think I won't ever use KDE, just because of the very bad support somebody also mentioned above.
I once entered the kde developers chan on the OPN, cuz I needed something about Konq, then they tell me that my questions isn't development related.... so, then I went into that damned kde-users channel (also on the OPN), and you know what? Those loosers in there were hell unfriendly. That was the most unfriendly channel I've ever joined, and also the most useless one...
If I have a problem with gnome (which I really don't have) I will log into the gnomre irc server and join the ppls in #gnome, and they'll help me. Without bitching around and asking why the hell I want to do shit.
And, I think that the "Peoples use gnome because of gimp" is a lie. That guy's just chickening out, because the only program he knows in gnome is probably gimp, and none of the others 'most probably).

Before I've heard that the gnome and KDE community wanted to get along a bit better than before... I think that was complete bullshit (it was a news posted on this site I think). I still think that as long as the KDE developers community acts as childish as above, they'll never get better... I think the KDE ppls are thoe ones who carry their damned noses so high. You're all just envy ...
If you have a problem with what I've posted here, you're welcome to join me on IRC and talk about it with me! :)

You certainly are right. I tried to implement open source in my workplace, almost had the management convinced, when Gnome released an upgrade. I showed just how easy it was to upgrade an open source product. Gnome with some help from Gettext destroyed the installation. I used the script, sent in the error report (the Gnome people sent me back a reply saying that there would be too much to read, maybe they will look at it if I reduce the size of the log, (Im not a developer, how do I know what to prune out of a log file for evaluation ?? If I knew what to look for I'D DO IT MYSELF)- or better still, perhaps I might find someone interested off-list - gee thanks guys - did I read something about noses in the air...)I STILL have not seen 2.8 working. I eventually upgraded from 1 to 2.4, after running the script and making changes, deleting and then re-adding packages, still don't have em all back. 2.4 was the best I could get, and that took 3 months of rerunning and hacking the system to get it to work. The script sucks, need mods to work - the BSD handbook tell you to partition the system with less space in /tmp than the script needs to run!. Hey just hack the script or re-partition ! No biggie if you have time to sit on your ass all day and mess with a program that you may eventually get working.
I guess Gnome is just not made for a corporate environment. No support, upgrading is a nightmare and takes forever (can you imagine walking up to a user and saying, Im just going to upgrade your desktop, do you mind taking a break, just grab a coffee - for about 6 weeks!!) KDE is a bit top heavy for me, but as you state, extremely usable, easy to upgrade (I upgraded my KDE about 8 weeks quicker than my Gnome 1 - 2.4 upgrade with NO failures, with a simple portupgrade) Also, as you state, all the apps that come with KDE is like Christmas. Whatever you want to do you are good to go - office suite, browser, image, multimedia - it's a well thought out package.(almost - talking average user here, not the R&D team for Sun or W3) Unlike the competition, who seem to be attempting to catch up. Be a lot more point to that if the package was more user friendly.
Gnome would make a nice environment for someone who has a great deal of time on their hands, and likes to tinker a lot, read heaps and watch text bouncing across your screen. For results or in a production environment, my recomendation is to give it a wide berth.
Gnome killed the possibility of open source in my workplace, Microsoft just made it all look too easy. A rep came in, popped XP in a blank machine and viola - 20 mins later a working desktop - Gnome was still struggling through Stage 2 of 5...............Cheezed off teribly and I curse the name that said - Use Gnome, it rocks. Rocks the boat I would say. Stuck with Windows now as a direct result of Gnome and how difficult it is to use. I wish I had demonstrated with KDE (actually RAT POISON would have been better that Gnome!, it might be bland but IT WORKS), but I guess lot of people , like me, have 20/20 hindsight.
I have now given up on gnome. It does NOT rock. Sorry, it just does not.

Just try to open this: http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4/docs/api/ - after loading this, my whole system is frozen - mouse won't move - I can't switch to my text consoles, I even can't kill X - the only thing I can do is use SysRq-Keys. Is my system misconfigured? I thought that in Linux/Unix - in contrast to windows 9x - a crashing program woud not crash my whole system.

>I thought that in Linux/Unix - in contrast to windows 9x - a crashing program woud not crash my whole system.<

Welcome to the club. I recently compiled Xine (latest 'stable release'), no errors during compiling process, I lunched it and experienced a total freeze, the only thing I could do was turn off my computer, but that was not all, I had to reinstall the whole system, no way to boot to console, the whole file system was broken.
But 'in contrast to Windows 98' I never experience freezes when I use stable releases shiped with distros. You have to have in mind that KDE3 is beta and it is released for testing purpose and not for everyday use. The reason why developers release beta software is to test it and that testers (users) can trace bugs. So, send the bug report and be sure that your Konqi is not going to freeze your system when kde developers release KDE3 final.

Well there you go. You're going about it all WRONG. Of course it won't get fixed if you just give up. Posting a useful bug report is the proper way to go about resolving things.

Besides, it is a video card/driver issue. If the app yer usin is written to use a higher level toolkit like Qt/Motif/Gtk+ it is going to be frobbing X correctly nine times out of ten. Don't blame de app.

>Posting a useful bug report is the proper way to go about resolving things.<

I would love it, I mean I would like to send a bug report, but I don't have any clue how to do it. When I want to see what's wrong with an application I run it through konsole, but running Xine through konsole wouldn't help much, and I don't want to take such a risk anymore. When an application crushes it is OK, when an application crushes X it is OK too, but when one application destroy entire system it is too much. It never happened with any other application before and I also run cvs versions here.

>Besides, it is a video card/driver issue.<

I am afraid it is not. Never had any similar problem with any other application: Blender, PovRay, Gimp, Mplayer, Loki games etc. etc.