Dating maze #280 - The Wild Boys Club

Mom is worried about her son who shows no signs of settling down.

I am concerned about my 27-year-old son. The only serious courtship he had was in college. Since then, he has succeeded professionally and personally. He has his "dream job" and owns his own property. The only thing lacking is a stable relationship. My daughter has had many discussions with him about being more mature with his dating habits, but he continues to have "a good time." My daughter and I scratch our heads at how many young women date him.

Just last week we were at the dentist who thought he had an "amazing" smile and was "so good looking." She said, "You must have a girlfriend." "Many!" he replied. This answer alarms me. He's not promiscuous, but he is in contact with a very long list of women. Could you please explain to me how to get this young man to be more "selective"? Does he need to go out with "many" young women?

Yesterday I took him for a routine check-up and our physician noted that he's gained a considerable amount of weight. The physician made it quite clear to him that his weekend partying was not a healthy thing to be doing.

I know you often hear from people who have difficulty meeting just "one" person, so this situation might seem like it's something to rejoice about. Instead, I'm extremely worried about him. Any ideas for how to move this young man toward marriage? Many of his friends are beginning to settle down and marry, and he's still behaving like he just joined a frat. Thanks for your help.

Mindy

Dear Mindy,

You can't imagine how much we appreciate receiving a letter from a mother who is concerned that her adult children find the right people to marry. Many parents don't realize that they can play a valuable role in helping their children find marriage partners, even when they are doing so from the sidelines. You seem to have found a way that works for you and your children -- encouraging them that marriage is an important goal in life, and offering helpful insight, such as encouraging your marriage-minded daughter to only date a man who is also interested in getting married. At the same time, you give your children the space and independence they need to make their own decisions about their relationships. It sounds as though you've achieved a balance that works well for your family.

We can identify with your concern that your 27-year-old son doesn't have any inclination to "settle down." It seems to you that at this age, he should be thinking about finding one woman to share his life with, settling down, and starting a family. But he hasn't even begun to think about entering this stage of life. Instead, he's having fun with a succession of adoring dating partners, and focusing exclusively on himself -- developing his career, accumulating assets, and having a good time.

Young adults tend to settle down much later than they did a generation or two ago. They're emerging from graduate school, or from a period of exploring their options, and only now beginning the first steps toward becoming "what they want to be when they grow up." It may take him a few more years to decide that he's ready to think of sharing his life with one person, becoming more giving of himself, and building a family.

But we share your concern that this might not happen. Why? For a few reasons. One is that some segments of our culture continually reinforce that frat boy image. While many people believe that the mid- to late-20s is a time to wind down one's diverse social life and think of becoming committed to one other person and building a family, many others push these thoughts off until their 30s, and still others don't ever feel it's something they need to do. Since there are no clear societal messages as to when or if "settling down" should occur, each person develops his own timetable.

The other reasons for our concern are tied to the fact that many people think about settling down after they have been on their own for a number of years. Delaying marriage for 5, 10, 15 or 20 years of adulthood creates a whole set of challenges. We've observed that the longer someone stays single, the more self-absorbed he or she becomes, simply because they have to take care of their own job, home, health, finances, family ties and social life. They rely only on themselves, and expend most of their emotional and physical energy on themselves. As a result, the harder it is to let someone into their life, engage in the give-and-take that a long-term relationship requires, and feel like a member of a partnership.

In addition, someone who has been accustomed to a succession of enjoyable, short-term relationships may have difficulty changing the nature of the way they date once they start dating for marriage. They'll have to infuse more purpose into the structure of their dates by developing good communication skills, so that they can discuss deep topics and learn about each other's view of such things as life, family, their direction in life, their future, how they want to relate to their spouse, how to deal with challenges or frustration, and what religious and moral qualities they value. They need to be able to anticipate that the joy of building a history with a partner, and sharing a life with someone they care about and trust, is more intense and enduring than the rush of feelings that accompanies each new but ultimately transitory relationship.

Gentle Persuasion

So what can you do, as a mother, to encourage your son to orient himself toward marriage and to help him acquire the tools he can use to develop an enduring relationship, and at the same time not overstepping the boundaries between parent and mature child? We suggest sitting down with him to tell him that you're proud of what he has accomplished in life, and to explain that you look forward to the time that he decides to settle down with one woman and build a home. Ask him if he's given some thought to when he would like to do this.

You may learn that your son has a timetable and plans to begin dating for marriage within the next few years. Ask him what he feels he needs to accomplish before he starts to do this. We've worked with a number of men and women who found it very helpful to list what they wanted to do before they married, and then give themselves a timeframe for accomplishing these goals. It helped them stay focused and kept them from continually putting off serious dating because they hadn't yet finished crossing everything off their list. See if your son is amenable to this idea. And if your son tells you that he would like to get married in the future but never gave much thought about when that would be, encourage him to do this exercise, too.

It's also a good idea to suggest incorporating a community service activity into his life. We find that individuals who take time from their busy lives to give to others become more sensitive, responsible to others, and generous of spirit -- all qualities that will help enhance the quality of his future marriage.

What if your son doesn't express any interest in marriage? You're not going to be able to persuade him to change his outlook by lecturing about how it is an ultimately richer and more satisfying life experience than dating. You can, however, plant seeds that might help him change his perspective at some time in the future.

One last thought: Does your son live at home or on his own? That may make a big difference in how he sees himself. He may still be playing the role of son rather than independent adult. For example, if he lives at home and you do his laundry and his errands, cook his meals, pay his bills, and don't expect him to have his own responsibilities, how can he see himself as anything more than an immature adult?

In addition, a 27-year-old man should be taking responsibility for his own medical care -- making his own appointments, driving himself to the doctor or dentist, paying his own doctor's bill. If you see yourself taking charge of this and other areas of his life, we suggest that you wean him away from his dependence on you. As he starts doing more for himself, he'll start to see himself as a more mature, independent adult and that will have an impact on his attitude toward dating.

We hope that our suggestions are helpful, and we wish you success in navigating the dating maze,

Featured at Aish.com:

About the Author

Questions for Rosie & Sherry can be sent to datingmaze@aish.com. Due to the large volume of questions received, they are unable to answer each one.

Rosie Einhorn (a psychotherapist) and Sherry Zimmerman (a psychotherapist and former family lawyer) are the authors of the newly-released book, Dating Smart – Navigating the Path to Marriage, published by Menucha Publishers. They are the founders of Sasson V'Simcha (www.jewishdatingandmarriage.com), a non- profit organization that provides programs and services in North America, Israel, and Europe to help Jewish singles and the people who care about them.

Visitor Comments: 16

(16)
Anonymous,
April 12, 2013 1:16 AM

wow

Think mom's are a huge factor in why men (especially Jewish men) often wait so long to settle down. If mommy's delaying the cutting of the apron strings, she's responsible for the huge lag in maturation between men and women. Lack of independence and incentive to find their Beshert., attention must be paid & maybe mom's can help the cause. I also agree about the ridiculous double standard.

(15)
Anonymous,
July 9, 2009 6:42 AM

What are you talking about.Mindy is a mother,not a clingy girlfriend.

My brother had to be taken in an ambulance for a little cough.Tough boys don't get tough by coming within the grips of a deadly illness.When this young man choses his Girlfriend/soon to be wife(whatever)then she will be bestowed with so much confidence right from the beginning.Something some of you might not have had obviously.There is something about being the "chosen one" that is the greatest place to start in the begining of a relationship.Just make sure your son tosses the "little/LONG black book before he proceeds to level 2, which in my life is the "meeting the parents" part.

(14)
S,
May 27, 2009 8:06 PM

Dear Mindy

I can't imagine why you are taking your 27 year old son to the doctor for a routine check up. Maybe his reluctance to settle down has something to do with the presence of an overbearing female figure in his life...

(13)
Anonymous,
April 22, 2009 12:51 PM

a good job ,money and investment property and he's got a mom arranging his medical and dental needs maybe a good cook feeding him as well and a slew of women for other needs and you expect that he should willingly give it up?

"In addition, someone who has been accustomed to a succession of enjoyable, short-term relationships may have difficulty changing the nature of the way they date once they start dating for marriage."
that for certain seems to be the case so don't push this teenager on a woman. he may be ready for marriage one day but at the moment he's enjoying life at a certain level so best to let it be. In a religious community this lifestyle would not be acceptable but other than that there is not much to say to him that will convince him to change his ways. Hugh Hefner is over 80 and still a player.

(12)
Anonymous,
April 22, 2009 12:52 AM

I'm curious as to how we would respond if this woman was writing in about her daughter. If it was her daughter proudly announcing she had 'many' boyfriends, kept in touch with a long list of men, and enjoyed dating lots of different men.
The answer was in itself helpful, but I think it fails to address the underlying issue. Particularly within the traditional shidduch system, a woman like this would be disregarded by many if not all when she decided she was ready to settle down. Why then do we gloss over the same behaviour when done by a man?
We need to start remembering that tznius and inappropriate contact with the opposite gender are applicable to our young men too, and start making sure they know it too. I am so sick of this double standard.

(11)
callie,
April 16, 2009 10:32 PM

You took a 27 year old to the doctor?

Okay, if he was REALLY sick or somehow needed you to take him that would be one thing. But a healthy man of 27 doesn't need his mommy to take him for a routine checkup and then discuss the results with the doctor.
I know what's wrong with your son. He already has an overbearing mother and is probably scared of having an overbearing wife.
Let him take care of his own life. He can take himself to the doctor, cook his own food, and wash his own clothes. Mommy and sister need to LAY OFF.
IF you don't stop babying him then of course he won't grow up and start a family of his own. DUH!

(10)
Donna Karen,
April 7, 2009 10:43 PM

Please

...stop micromanaging your son! He's only 27, for heaven's sake. Today's young people don't mature until they're approximately 30, sometimes later. He'll get married when he's ready....or he won't. The best parents train their children to be independent and make their own way in Life.
Having said that, my mother preached the gospel of independence to me and now at this stage of my Life, I'm hearing that men my age and older mostly prefer the clingly, needy types. Who knew?

(9)
Anonymous,
April 3, 2009 6:16 PM

Mama's Bpy

Who takes their 27 year old son to the doctor and dentist? No wonder this kid isn't ready to get married, nor should he be getting married any time soon. First, he needs to individuate from his mother and become an adult.

(8)
Anonymous,
April 1, 2009 10:56 PM

Push him out of the nest so he can fly on his own

Hey, Jocasta, your 27-year-old son is well past the age where his mother should accompany him to his physician and dentist appointments! Methinks you are the primary obstacle to his growing up and becoming a man and doing what a man should do.

Back when he was around 8 years old, certain physical and chemical changes began to occur in his body. These affected his mind, and he has ever since been unable to relate to you in the same manner as he did when he was less than 3 years old.

So if you keep trying to relate to him as you did when he was 3, then this causes a big time conflict in his views of himself, and in his consequent ability to develop a healthy relationship with a a partner of the opposite gender.

If you make your son''s bed, then he will eventually lie in it!

(7)
Joe,
April 1, 2009 2:20 PM

Am I the only one to notice this?

The son is 27 and owns property. He has his dream job.
And then: "Just last week we were at the dentist who thought he had an "amazing" smile..."
And then: "Yesterday I took him for a routine check-up and our physician noted that he's gained a considerable amount of weight."
Now how old is this young man? Is he 5 or is he 27? What is a successful, independent young man doing getting "taken to the doctor" or the dentist by his mother? Her complaints about his weight and his dating habits, whilst assuring strangers on the internet that "he is not promiscuous" make a picture out of Philip Roth.
Now certain things do not add up. It is unlikely that a man as seriously underdeloped as this has all that many serious oppurtunities. Either Ema is deluded about his popularity or she is deluded about how much influence she has. If this is the first case, that he truly is that stuck in childhood that he is comfortable with such a sufficating and boundaryless family then the absolute best thing for him is to actually face the real world and tell his mom - respectfully, but with utter firmness, that she needs to back off from his private life. If he can do that, he has a chance of having a private life.

(6)
fd,
April 1, 2009 1:28 PM

Ha!

Your son is 27? Oy vey you should be pulling out your hair. Please! He'll settle down when he's ready. I'm curious to know the status of your daughter. Is she single and older than him and in her 30s who is panicking? That may be why she wants him to settle down- so maybe her friends or contemporaries won't in be in the same boat trying to find a guy since he has a good job and home etc.

(5)
Jayson Rex,
March 31, 2009 5:54 PM

Your son is not you.

It is difficult for you, as a mother, to let go - naturally. But you will - eventually. Every person matures at a given rate. In this specific case it seems that you, the mother, have great difficultíes growing up. Whose fault is it?
You mention your daughter but not your husband, are you divorced or he just does not agree with your "worries" and posture.
You state that your son is not promiscuous. Of course he is. But so what? On the other hand, he does not NEED to go out with "many young women", he simply LIKES to go out, etc.
I am really sorry but you need to start living your own life while your 27 year old son lives his. And your ?? year old daughter, hers - not her brother's. Respect for others, whether family or not, is the basis for healthy human relationships. There is no alternative. =

(4)
JB Destiny,
March 31, 2009 1:48 PM

Please!

What was the entire text of this answer for? All that was necessary was the second to last paragraph! The fact that Mom is still going to the doctor and dentist with her 27-year old says everything. Even my husband, who has a phobia of doctors since surviving meningitis at the age of 6, didn't drag his mother to his routine appointments after he got his driver's license at 16!

(3)
Hannah,
March 31, 2009 9:33 AM

He is not ready and you cannot do anything about it.

It may be hard to see your son's youth "wasted" on dating numerous people. But it is his life and his choices. He makes them and he pays for them. He is just not ready and may not want to be married. If you "gently" persuade him to date seriously and/or marry you may make one woman very unhappy. As a result of feeling forced or not ready for a serious commitment will simply play our his resentment in that relationship.
I was dating once a man like that. His family could not wait for him to marry and they loved me. He made my life miserable after we got engaged and clearly showed that he was not in a hurry to have a family. It damaged my self-esteem, even though it was not my problem but his. We broke up and it was very hard for me. Eventually I met a man who was ready and who wanted to marry. That courtship was so different and satisfying. Now I am married to him and every day of my life I wake up knowing that my husband wants to be with me and loves the idea of life commitment. It is very different.

(2)
She Mona Esray,
March 31, 2009 8:30 AM

Are You Kidding?

The son is getting what he wants, and not what he doesn't want.
The Mom had her chance to instill her values years ago, and failed.
Now Mom, try to get him to tell you what he'd want in a wife, if anything, and then help him get it.
Pray that he meets the woman he'd commit to whenever that happens, God's job is to arrange marriages, not yours, and your son's choice is not a uniquely Jewish matter. Don't forget, many marriages fail, and some are in the dating pool that are his age the second or third time around.

(1)
Anonymous,
March 30, 2009 1:32 PM

Please do not throw this guy into the dating pool

Do us women a favor - your son is not ready to get married for MANY years. Do not encourage him to do so. You have raised a child, not a man. If a girl marries him during the next few years your son is headed towards divorce. Is that what you want? Leave him alone. It sounds like the Mother just wants grandchildren. 27 is very young for a man nowadays to 'settle down' , especially for the 'boy' described above. He'll be ready in his late thirties. Just let him be.

I live in rural Montana where the Cholov Yisrael milk is difficult to obtain and very expensive. So I drink regular milk. What is your view on this?

The Aish Rabbi Replies:

Jewish law requires that there be rabbinic supervision during the milking process to ensure that the milk comes from a kosher animal. In the United States, many people rely on the Department of Agriculture's regulations and controls as sufficiently stringent to fulfill the rabbinic requirement for supervision.

Most of the major Kashrut organizations in the United States rely on this as well. You will therefore find many kosher products in America certified with a 'D' next to the kosher symbol. Such products – unless otherwise specified on the label – are not Cholov Yisrael and are assumed kosher based on the DOA's guarantee.

There are many, however, do not rely on this, and will eat only dairy products that are designated as Cholov Yisrael (literally, "Jewish milk"). This is particularly true in large Jewish communities, where Cholov Yisrael is widely available.

Rabbi Moshe Feinstein wrote that under limited conditions, such as an institution which consumes a lot of milk and Cholov Yisrael is generally unavailable or especially expensive, American milk is acceptable, as the government supervision is adequate to prevent non-kosher ingredients from being added.

It should be added that the above only applies to milk itself, which is marketed as pure cow's milk. All other dairy products, such as cheeses and butter, may contain non-kosher ingredients and always require kosher certification. In addition, Rabbi Feinstein's ruling applies only in the United States, where government regulations are considered reliable. In other parts of the world, including Europe, Cholov Yisrael is a requirement.

There are additional esoteric reasons for being stringent regarding Cholov Yisrael, and because of this it is generally advisable to consume only Cholov Yisroel dairy foods.

In 1889, 800 Jews arrived in Buenos Aires, marking the birth of the modern Jewish community in Argentina. These immigrants were fleeing poverty and pogroms in Russia, and moved to Argentina because of its open door policy of immigration. By 1920, more than 150,000 Jews were living in Argentina. Juan Peron's rise to power in 1946 was an ominous sign, as he was a Nazi sympathizer with fascist leanings. Peron halted Jewish immigration to Argentina, introduced mandatory Catholic religious instruction in public schools, and allowed Argentina to become a haven for fleeing Nazis. (In 1960, Israeli agents abducted Adolf Eichmann from a Buenos Aires suburb.) Today, Argentina has the largest Jewish community in Latin America with 250,000, though terror attacks have prompted many young people to emigrate. In 1992, the Israeli Embassy in Buenos Aires was bombed, killing 32 people. In 1994, the Jewish community headquarters in Buenos Aires was bombed, killing 85 people. The perpetrators have never been apprehended.

Be aware of what situations and behaviors give you pleasure. When you feel excessively sad and cannot change your attitude, make a conscious effort to take some action that might alleviate your sadness.

If you anticipate feeling sad, prepare a list of things that might make you feel better. It could be talking to a specific enthusiastic individual, running, taking a walk in a quiet area, looking at pictures of family, listening to music, or reading inspiring words.

While our attitude is a major factor in sadness, lack of positive external situations and events play an important role in how we feel.

[If a criminal has been executed by hanging] his body may not remain suspended overnight ... because it is an insult to God (Deuteronomy 21:23).

Rashi explains that since man was created in the image of God, anything that disparages man is disparaging God as well.

Chilul Hashem, bringing disgrace to the Divine Name, is one of the greatest sins in the Torah. The opposite of chilul Hashem is kiddush Hashem, sanctifying the Divine Name. While this topic has several dimensions to it, there is a living kiddush Hashem which occurs when a Jew behaves in a manner that merits the respect and admiration of other people, who thereby respect the Torah of Israel.

What is chilul Hashem? One Talmudic author stated, "It is when I buy meat from the butcher and delay paying him" (Yoma 86a). To cause someone to say that a Torah scholar is anything less than scrupulous in meeting his obligations is to cause people to lose respect for the Torah.

Suppose someone offers us a business deal of questionable legality. Is the personal gain worth the possible dishonor that we bring not only upon ourselves, but on our nation? If our personal reputation is ours to handle in whatever way we please, shouldn't we handle the reputation of our nation and the God we represent with maximum care?

Jews have given so much, even their lives, for kiddush Hashem. Can we not forego a few dollars to avoid chilul Hashem?

Today I shall...

be scrupulous in all my transactions and relationships to avoid the possibility of bringing dishonor to my God and people.

With stories and insights,
Rabbi Twerski's new book Twerski on Machzor makes Rosh Hashanah prayers more meaningful. Click here to order...