Sylvia_Bandersnatch:There's more to it than that, though. BSA groups also get off-book funding of a sort, in the form of free provisions from publicly-owned, taxpayer-funded facilities and resources. It's long been the practice in many communities, for example, to let the BSA use facilities such as public school spaces for free -- spaces that other non-profits would be asked to pay to use. That amounts to taxpayer support.

not really. I mean...consider all the effort the BSA puts into their local communities. again - everything from volunteer work to conservation efforts. VERY few other organizations do that for local communities. I think it's a wash as far as this talking point goes.

Weaver95:The Why Not Guy: Weaver95: well, yeah - I mean it's their club house, the BSA sets the rules on this one. If they say 'no gay eagle scouts' then they won't let anyone gay become an eagle scout. you might not like their rules...but you do have to respect the right of the BSA to set their own rules for their own membership.. don't like the rules, don't join the scouts.

The problem with your "logic" is that the Federal and local Governments give all kinds of in-kind support to the Scouts at taxpayer expense, ranging from free meeting spaces in schools to open houses in police and fire departments to the Department of Defense spending hundreds of thousands of dollars to help run the Jamboree.

If the Scouts want to exclude gays, fine. But why should taxpayers subsidize a group that discriminates?

well, for starters - the BSA put in a LOT of time and effort to maintain state and federal game lands and parks. if you want to put a price tag on it, the various scouting organizations put in literally hundreds of thousands of man hours (which translates to a couple billion $$$ a year in free labor) cleaning up parks, assisting in conservation efforts and working on upgrades and standard maintenance at every level of the park system. cut the BSA off from that and wanna guess what happens next? it won't be good for the parks, I can tell you that much. Careful where you go with this sort of logic. it'll bite ya in the ass faster than you realize.

I get that you don't like the BSA policies on homosexuality. hey, that's great. diversity right? But even if you don't like the scouting organization's rules on homosexuality, don't forget that they still manage to do a helluva lot of good for their local communities. everything from conservation to volunteer work. you start cutting the scouts out of society then you'll end up hurting all the people the scouts have helped. you really wanna cut your nose off to spite your face? is that a trade off you're willing to make ...

Oh, whoopee, they helped out nature. Gee, they did nice things for some people. I guess that means they're free to be assholes towards others as a form of reward or something.

I clean empty lots and help at soup kitchens, therefore I'm entitled to discriminate against Asians because they're not the same as me and I feel they're an affront to God and Jesus.

eddiesocket:Weaver95: And making life difficult for them seems kinda mean and petty...

Oh, farking Christ! Yes, let's all shed a tear for the poor bigoted BSA. Let's not be mean and petty by calling them out as the bigots they are.Seriously, this "you must tolerate my intolerance" BS by conservatives all people (regardless of political allegience) never fails to amuse. We're not doing that anymore. Sorry. No more turning the other cheek.

eddiesocket:Kingly Weevil: This makes me so sad because scouting was a program I enjoyed very much when I was a kid. At the time I of course didn't understand bigotry at the time, and never saw any examples of it myself while participating.

I just wish everyone could have the same great experiences that I had in it, and that the program would quit publicly shaming itself. This seriously makes me a little ashamed to be an Eagle Scout. I want to mail them my patch and tell them that I don't want it if he can't have his.

If you really mean it: Link

Wow.... That's an amazing link. I only skimmed over the first 3 letters, and was shocked to see that the page just went on and on and on. If the other letters are like the first 3 (and I must assume they are), the Boy Scouts administration has done a very very stupid thing. There are some eloquent, earnest people returning their badges (?) right there.

Weaver95:Sylvia_Bandersnatch:There's more to it than that, though. BSA groups also get off-book funding of a sort, in the form of free provisions from publicly-owned, taxpayer-funded facilities and resources. It's long been the practice in many communities, for example, to let the BSA use facilities such as public school spaces for free -- spaces that other non-profits would be asked to pay to use. That amounts to taxpayer support.

not really. I mean...consider all the effort the BSA puts into their local communities. again - everything from volunteer work to conservation efforts. VERY few other organizations do that for local communities. I think it's a wash as far as this talking point goes.

Weaver95:Have you ever SEEN how much government contractors get paid!?

Yes, and you don't need ANY middlemen. You don't need Blackwater to be your middlemen, you don't need homophobic scout leaders to be your middlemen. Pay them DIRECTLY, like the current park employees, who I guarantee you aren't taking baths in gold coins.

Weaver95:ooook, so there's a point of difference. the KKK goes out and uses physical threats and intimidation while the BSA...does what again exactly? oh, right...doesn't let gays join their reindeer games.

not exactly the same sorts of organizations after all, are they?

Again, I never said they were the same. Only that they were both hate groups.

eddiesocket:Weaver95: Sylvia_Bandersnatch:There's more to it than that, though. BSA groups also get off-book funding of a sort, in the form of free provisions from publicly-owned, taxpayer-funded facilities and resources. It's long been the practice in many communities, for example, to let the BSA use facilities such as public school spaces for free -- spaces that other non-profits would be asked to pay to use. That amounts to taxpayer support.

not really. I mean...consider all the effort the BSA puts into their local communities. again - everything from volunteer work to conservation efforts. VERY few other organizations do that for local communities. I think it's a wash as far as this talking point goes.

Well, we certainly can't argue with your solid stats.

it's 1am and f*ck you if think i'm gonna go wade thru google searches looking for verified stats on just how many man hours the BSA puts in per year on conservation work across the USA. short answer? lots. longer answer: HELL of a lot.

Weaver95:Keizer_Ghidorah: Oh, whoopee, they helped out nature. Gee, they did nice things for some people. I guess that means they're free to be assholes towards others as a form of reward or something.

I clean empty lots and help at soup kitchens, therefore I'm entitled to discriminate against Asians because they're not the same as me and I feel they're an affront to God and Jesus.

sorry man - the world isn't always black and white. you drive the BSA out of your local communities and well...you'll pay a price for it. actions, consequences, blah blah blah.

Keizer_Ghidorah:Hey, he's not saying anything. Hasn't for 2,000 years or so. If he really cared about anything, you think he'd have voiced it by now. Of course it IS difficult for a fictional thing to actually speak.

/God said to stone people to death who eat shellfish, wear blended fabrics, and work on a certain day. Why would anyone with a heart and brain follow a monster like that?

Weaver95:eddiesocket: Weaver95: Sylvia_Bandersnatch:There's more to it than that, though. BSA groups also get off-book funding of a sort, in the form of free provisions from publicly-owned, taxpayer-funded facilities and resources. It's long been the practice in many communities, for example, to let the BSA use facilities such as public school spaces for free -- spaces that other non-profits would be asked to pay to use. That amounts to taxpayer support.

not really. I mean...consider all the effort the BSA puts into their local communities. again - everything from volunteer work to conservation efforts. VERY few other organizations do that for local communities. I think it's a wash as far as this talking point goes.

Well, we certainly can't argue with your solid stats.

it's 1am and f*ck you if think i'm gonna go wade thru google searches looking for verified stats on just how many man hours the BSA puts in per year on conservation work across the USA. short answer? lots. longer answer: HELL of a lot.

Argued like a true Teabagger. Except you should've said H-E-Double Hockey Sticks.

The Why Not Guy:Weaver95: then talk to your elected officials about the fedgov and how they pay federal contractors.

What does that have to do with your claim that Boy Scout labor is worth $4,000 per hour? You're going to have to try a lot harder to change the subject.

are you really this f*cking stupid or do you just hate the fact that the BSA makes up rules that you don't like and cannot force them to change...?

short answer - the BSA puts in a LOT of free labor. quibble on the details if you'd like...but they put a lot of work into conservation projects and volunteer work. I'd say that MORE than earns them a couple of perks for their organization. hell, it's a bargain for the states with all that free labor.

Weaver95:it's 1am and f*ck you if think i'm gonna go wade thru google searches looking for verified stats on just how many man hours the BSA puts in per year on conservation work across the USA. short answer? lots. longer answer: HELL of a lot.

Oh, so now you're admitting you have no idea what you're talking about, but f*ck us? Whatever.

eddiesocket:Weaver95: eddiesocket: Weaver95: Sylvia_Bandersnatch:There's more to it than that, though. BSA groups also get off-book funding of a sort, in the form of free provisions from publicly-owned, taxpayer-funded facilities and resources. It's long been the practice in many communities, for example, to let the BSA use facilities such as public school spaces for free -- spaces that other non-profits would be asked to pay to use. That amounts to taxpayer support.

not really. I mean...consider all the effort the BSA puts into their local communities. again - everything from volunteer work to conservation efforts. VERY few other organizations do that for local communities. I think it's a wash as far as this talking point goes.

Well, we certainly can't argue with your solid stats.

it's 1am and f*ck you if think i'm gonna go wade thru google searches looking for verified stats on just how many man hours the BSA puts in per year on conservation work across the USA. short answer? lots. longer answer: HELL of a lot.

Argued like a true Teabagger. Except you should've said H-E-Double Hockey Sticks.

so you wanna take the position that the BSA doesn't put in a lot of time and effort with conservation efforts around the country? you REALLY wanna go that route?

The Why Not Guy:Weaver95: it's 1am and f*ck you if think i'm gonna go wade thru google searches looking for verified stats on just how many man hours the BSA puts in per year on conservation work across the USA. short answer? lots. longer answer: HELL of a lot.

Oh, so now you're admitting you have no idea what you're talking about, but f*ck us? Whatever.

oh I know exactly what i'm talking about...i'm just giving you my standard 'f*ck you, do your own research' reply I give everyone on fark.

stiletto_the_wise:Weaver95: ooook, so there's a point of difference. the KKK goes out and uses physical threats and intimidation while the BSA...does what again exactly? oh, right...doesn't let gays join their reindeer games.

not exactly the same sorts of organizations after all, are they?

Again, I never said they were the same. Only that they were both hate groups.

You and I are not the same, but we are both male.

Not allowing homosexuals doesn't make BSA a hate group. I belong to both the American Bar Association and the VFW both of these organizations have exclusionary membership requirements, but they are not hate groups.

Weaver95:Keizer_Ghidorah: Oh, whoopee, they helped out nature. Gee, they did nice things for some people. I guess that means they're free to be assholes towards others as a form of reward or something.

I clean empty lots and help at soup kitchens, therefore I'm entitled to discriminate against Asians because they're not the same as me and I feel they're an affront to God and Jesus.

sorry man - the world isn't always black and white. you drive the BSA out of your local communities and well...you'll pay a price for it. actions, consequences, blah blah blah.

What consequences? The people living in those areas can do those jobs just as easily, and they'd get the money instead. The kids can always join Little League or something if they need a group to belong to.

Fark bigots, plain and simple. You use your ancient religion to discriminate and hate, you can shove rusty nails in your eyes for all I care. Meanwhile the rest of us will be decent human beings.

Weaver95:The Why Not Guy: Weaver95: then talk to your elected officials about the fedgov and how they pay federal contractors.

What does that have to do with your claim that Boy Scout labor is worth $4,000 per hour? You're going to have to try a lot harder to change the subject.

are you really this f*cking stupid or do you just hate the fact that the BSA makes up rules that you don't like and cannot force them to change...?

short answer - the BSA puts in a LOT of free labor. quibble on the details if you'd like...but they put a lot of work into conservation projects and volunteer work. I'd say that MORE than earns them a couple of perks for their organization. hell, it's a bargain for the states with all that free labor.

Here we go again...Although somehow we've sunk from a "hell of a lot" to just "a LOT". But since it's in all caps, does that mean it's more? Hard to tell. Of course, a few posts earlier it was "a wash". This sure is confusing! But what he know for sure is...um...bigotry is justified if free labor is offered. Even though it's totally not free.

obamadidcoke:Not allowing homosexuals doesn't make BSA a hate group. I belong to both the American Bar Association and the VFW both of these organizations have exclusionary membership requirements, but they are not hate groups.

That's fine. If me thinking your claim that Boy Scout labor is worth $4,000 per hour means I'm stupid, I can live with that... because I most certainly do not think Boy Scout labor is worth $4,000 per hour.

I have seen several examples in this thread that 'pedophile scout masters' make people wary of gay scouts. What? If some guy goes around raping young girls, that doesn't make everyone suddenly suspect all the straight people of being pedophiles. And yet it's perfectly acceptable to make that assumption about gays because of a few pedophiles.

And this is putting aside that pedophilia is *not* the same as being gay, regardless of what gender they commit the crime against.

rwfan:Rather than mailing in your eagle patch, which would be something that only the BSA would know about and would be easily ignored, you should make a public statement. The BSA claims that they ban gays because that is what their members want. If the members make it clear that that is not true then the BSA might change their policy.

I agree - turning away from the organization is not a recipe for changing it, if you want it changed. These guys mailing in their patches are like the people who threaten to leave the country every time the party they don't support takes power. If you are an Eagle Scout and you don't like this, the solution is to get active on some level and complain - repeatedly - and work to see to it that things change. But also, the Scouts needs people to help find solutions to a difficult problem.Scouts has a problem with being a magnet for pedophiles, but the organization mistakenly equates pedophilia with homosexuality. Jerry Sandusky was married and so are a lot of pedos, so clearly the policy is missing the mark. Cases like this one, where a boy's childhood achievements are trampled upon are particularly sad and wrong and clearly misguided, IMO.But even more sad and wrong are children victimized by predators. Scouting needs to figure out how to completely eliminate predators from its midst or it will surely enter the dustbin of history.

DubyaHater:I'm sure this kid knew the consequences of coming out of the closet. He stood up in the face of bigotry and announced to the world he is a homosexual. He's proven he's stronger and more confident than any Eagle Scout. Good for him for not being intimidated by some antiquated organization from the early 20th century. If I could give him his Eagle Scout badge, I would.

eddiesocket:Here we go again...Although somehow we've sunk from a "hell of a lot" to just "a LOT". But since it's in all caps, does that mean it's more? Hard to tell. Of course, a few posts earlier it was "a wash". This sure is confusing! But what he know for sure is...um...bigotry is justified if free labor is offered. Even though it's totally not free.

Earlier he said it was a couple hundred thousand man-hours of work at a value of a couple billion dollars. Those Boy Scouts must work really hard to be worth thousands of dollars per hour.

stiletto_the_wise:obamadidcoke: Not allowing homosexuals doesn't make BSA a hate group. I belong to both the American Bar Association and the VFW both of these organizations have exclusionary membership requirements, but they are not hate groups.

stiletto_the_wise:obamadidcoke: Not allowing homosexuals doesn't make BSA a hate group. I belong to both the American Bar Association and the VFW both of these organizations have exclusionary membership requirements, but they are not hate groups.

Do they exclude gays?

I guess if the military excluded gays in past wars, then yes the VFW does.