Right move. Front-line health care workers should be fully immunized. The only exceptions should be for vaccines the person is documented to be allergic to, and this nurse provided no evidence that she is allergic to chicken eggs which is the only allergen in the seasonal flu shot. Influenza is contagious before a person shows symptoms, so she could be risking the health of everyone she works with, which includes very sick people in that hospital.

That said, I think after 21 years of service, the better thing to do would have been to transfer her to a non-front-line position where she would no longer be a risk to patients.

I don't think they should have been fired, I think an alternative should have been provided.

My DH works in our local hospital, and it's mandated that all healthcare workers get the flu shot, and if they chose not to, then they are required to wear face masks and gloves (new gloves obviously for each patient).

The patients in a hospital are already at risk - you don't want to take the chance of giving someone with an already compromised immune system the flu, but you do have to make alternatives for people who's believes prevent them from something like the flu shot.

Right move. Front-line health care workers should be fully immunized. The only exceptions should be for vaccines the person is documented to be allergic to, and this nurse provided no evidence that she is allergic to chicken eggs which is the only allergen in the seasonal flu shot. Influenza is contagious before a person shows symptoms, so she could be risking the health of everyone she works with, which includes very sick people in that hospital.

That said, I think after 21 years of service, the better thing to do would have been to transfer her to a non-front-line position where she would no longer be a risk to patients.

They actually introduced an egg free alternative this last year. (which is so cool!)

I definitely think they did the right thing!! I can't imagine having a child with a compromised immune system killed because of their refusal to get one shot.

I would be curious to know if there is anything religious that would prevent anyone from this? Anyone know?

ETA: I would be curious, but it wouldn't change my stance on them getting it or not. If you can't get a vaccine because of your religion please get a job where you might not accidently kill someone because of it!

I'm back and forth on this one. Between doing what I think is right for myself and balancing the fact that if I was very ill in the hospital and a nurse didn't get a flu shot and gave me the flu which hindered my recovery I would be livid.

I don't think the lawyer saying that if they have a strong belief on it it is akin to a religious belief gives them a leg to stand on.

I would rather see a positive reinforcement to getting the flu shot (financial incentive or something) vs. firing much needed and tenured nurses.

My DH works in our local hospital, and it's mandated that all healthcare workers get the flu shot, and if they chose not to, then they are required to wear face masks and gloves (new gloves obviously for each patient).

I don't think that's a reasonable accomodation because that person will still have to remove the mask to take a drink of water, blow his nose, eat lunch on his break, maybe talk on the phone, etc. and then the protection is gone. But if it is offered, then it should be at the nurse's personal expense, not the hospital's.

What happened to body autonomy? Why should she be forced to put something in her body that she was comfortable with? I am sure as a veteran nurse she was knowledgeable on how to not spread her germs.

That being said I think employers have the right to fire whomever they would like, I just disagree with firing an employee over something like this when all other indicators show her to be a great employee

This nurse works in critical care? With the patients with probably the lowest immunity of all patients in a hospital?

I have no sympathy for her.

This is what I'm thinking.

If she had a sincere medical reason for not getting the shot, I would think that they would need to find some way to work with her (maybe by having her in a non-patient facing position.) Otherwise, I don't feel bad for her.

What happened to body autonomy? Why should she be forced to put something in her body that she was comfortable with? I am sure as a veteran nurse she was knowledgeable on how to not spread her germs.

Her body autonomy ends when she puts sick patients -- who are coming to a hospital for care -- at risk. And did you read the part about how influenza is contagious before symptoms start? There's absolutely no way of keeping her away from anyone who might have it or keep her from spreading it before she knows she has it. Except for her to not be there.

I have never had the flu shot and neither have my children or DH. However, I do believe in being able to fire someone for whatever reason an employer sees fit. I believe that it is well known that nurses are required to get a flu shot. If that is something that is morally objectionable to you, then that is probably not a good field for you to be in.

What happened to body autonomy? Why should she be forced to put something in her body that she was comfortable with? I am sure as a veteran nurse she was knowledgeable on how to not spread her germs.

That being said I think employers have the right to fire whomever they would like, I just disagree with firing an employee over something like this when all other indicators show her to be a great employee

Even the best, longest tenured nurses don't know they've just contracted the flu virus when they touched that faucet or doorknob or handrail on the bus.

I am well aware of how the flu is spread. I just do not believe that the flu shot is the end all be all for flu prevention. In the ICU at the hospital here the nurses wash before they come in the room, glove up and put on a mask every time. (actually I think they do this in all the rooms during flu season)

I just dont see how taking away her choice here is okay, especially if she is willing to take extra precaution to protect her patients.

It has nothing to do with taking away her choices it's about keeping the patients (and there family's that visit) healthy and most importantly alive. There are already over 3,000 cases of the flu being reported for this yr, and it's only going to get worse.

Where i worked, if you didn't take the shot they only made you sign a waiver.

I am well aware of how the flu is spread. I just do not believe that the flu shot is the end all be all for flu prevention. In the ICU at the hospital here the nurses wash before they come in the room, glove up and put on a mask every time. (actually I think they do this in all the rooms during flu season)

I just dont see how taking away her choice here is okay, especially if she is willing to take extra precaution to protect her patients.

My DH works in our local hospital, and it's mandated that all healthcare workers get the flu shot, and if they chose not to, then they are required to wear face masks and gloves (new gloves obviously for each patient).

"Spacers" wrote:

I don't think that's a reasonable accomodation because that person will still have to remove the mask to take a drink of water, blow his nose, eat lunch on his break, maybe talk on the phone, etc. and then the protection is gone. But if it is offered, then it should be at the nurse's personal expense, not the hospital's.

I believe that they are required to change their mask every time it is removed for any reason, and they're not permitted to remove it while in contact with their patients.

I actually think this provides an even higher level of protection, because a new patient can be admitted and have already come into contact with the flu. Not all nurses wear gloves (in fact, unless you're going into a highly contagious room or doing blood work, around here almost no nurses wear gloves), so by requiring nurses to change gloves in between seeing every patient, it's preventing the nurses from spreading the flu from patient to patient.
The flu shot may give individual immunity, but it doesn't stop the germs from living on your hands/clothing, etc and passing to someone else.

And as for cost......well, I'm Canadian, so the cost is paid for by the hospital.

Here nurses who choose not to get the flu shot here have to wear mask and gloves, and a badge that says they didnt have it. Honestly these are precations I think every nurse should take anyways, and the flu shot shouldnt determine employment. Both my parents got the flu shot this year, and both got the flu. We shouldnt rely so heavily on something that isnt very reliable in my opinion. And they should have found another place for this woman. 22 years ago when she got her job the flu shot wasnt available, let alone required!

I am well aware of how the flu is spread. I just do not believe that the flu shot is the end all be all for flu prevention. In the ICU at the hospital here the nurses wash before they come in the room, glove up and put on a mask every time. (actually I think they do this in all the rooms during flu season)

I just dont see how taking away her choice here is okay, especially if she is willing to take extra precaution to protect her patients.

I don't see how her body autonomy should (potentially) be the patients' problem. By being at an increased risk for catching the flu, she isn't just putting herself at risk, but also putting her patients at risk. Where is their choice? Can they choose not to have her as a nurse?

For most jobs, I would agree that her bodily automy is more important. It would be an outrage if my company fired me over refusing to get a flu shot. However, she works with critically ill patients who may well have compromised immune systems. To me, that comes with special obligations and responsibilities over and above what most of us deal with. Part of that is doing everything reasonable to minimize the risk of infection to these crically ill patients. Getting a flu shot falls well within the limits of "reasonable" unless she has a valid medical reason not to, IMO.

I am well aware of how the flu is spread. I just do not believe that the flu shot is the end all be all for flu prevention. In the ICU at the hospital here the nurses wash before they come in the room, glove up and put on a mask every time. (actually I think they do this in all the rooms during flu season)

I just dont see how taking away her choice here is okay, especially if she is willing to take extra precaution to protect her patients.

To the bold... Correct. There are several flu strains every year and they isolate the most virulent and that is the vaccine they make and we receive. I received a flu shot but it does not mean I cannot catch another strain floating around out there. More than likely my body could fight it off though or already has. If not, then I'm off work for a few days, lol.

I don't see how her body autonomy should (potentially) be the patients' problem. By being at an increased risk for catching the flu, she isn't just putting herself at risk, but also putting her patients at risk. Where is their choice? Can they choose not to have her as a nurse?

For most jobs, I would agree that her bodily automy is more important. It would be an outrage if my company fired me over refusing to get a flu shot. However, she works with critically ill patients who may well have compromised immune systems. To me, that comes with special obligations and responsibilities over and above what most of us deal with. Part of that is doing everything reasonable to minimize the risk of infection to these crically ill patients. Getting a flu shot falls well within the limits of "reasonable" unless she has a valid medical reason not to, IMO.

Bolded: Yes. You can refuse a person as a nurse. Unless she has the badge that says she didn't recieve the flu shot (like in another post) how are they going to know?

What I found interesting in the article was something like 1300 refused but only 8 were fired.

I think requiring the flu shot is reasonable.

Yeah I wonder why these 8 were singled out.

I would love to see documented cases of healthcare workers spreading the flu to patients. I would bet that the instance is rare, especially if the nurse is utilizing proper standard precautions for all patients.

[QUOTE=blather]A nurse who refuses a flu shot probably does not have the scientific knowledge to be a nurse. Right move.

Why would you think this? Both my mother and MIL are nurses and have been nurses for many, many years. They have their flu shot because it is required, but I am quite certain MIL would not if she did not have to. She is an excellent nurse with over 30 years of experience. She does get the shot though because it is a requirement of her job.

Well...some nurses smoke right? And use tanning booths? I guess it's kind of the same mentality in that nurses sometimes don't make the healthiest choice. But when it comes down to affecting others is where it's the problem.

Even nursing students that have clinicals have to provide proof they are up to date on their immunizations. Why should the flu shot be in a different category?

Why would you think this? Both my mother and MIL are nurses and have been nurses for many, many years. They have their flu shot because it is required, but I am quite certain MIL would not if she did not have to. She is an excellent nurse with over 30 years of experience. She does get the shot though because it is a requirement of her job.

I don't understand why she wouldn't receive a flu shot if not required? It doesn't hurt her and it protects her from patients that may spread the flu on to her....

I am in the medical field and I have had patients literally cough in my face from a few inches away. You're damn right I'm getting a flue shot, along with my other immunizations.

I don't understand why she wouldn't receive a flu shot if not required? It doesn't hurt her and it protects her from patients that may spread the flu on to her....

I can not speak for her, I really am not sure. I do know a great many people who are not a fan of the flu vaccine. My girls are up to date on all of their required shots, however the flu vaccine is not considered a required vaccine (Obviously hospitals and other nursing facilities would have their own regulations).

On an unrelated side topic, one of my very first debates on the debate boards was a vaccination debate. It was a very lively debate.

ETA - There was something wrong with the quote, I am not the one I was trying to quote.

As the state prepares for the upcoming influenza season, the Massachusetts
Nurses Association (MNA), the state's largest union of registered nurses and
health professionals, strongly opposes a new policy being implemented by a
number of hospital and health care employers calling for mandatory masking of
healthcare workers as a component of a flu prevention program, and threatens to
fire nurses who don't wear the mask throughout the hospital all day. "Rather
than focus on systems and policies that actually prevent flu transmission, many
institutions are now focused on setting a misguided and ineffective policy which
mandates that healthy healthcare workers wear a mask for eight to twelve hours
while on duty if unvaccinated," according to a position statement approved today
by the MNA/NNU Board of Directors. "We encourage nurses to become educated on
the risks and benefits of the influenza vaccine and decide whether to vaccinate,but there is no medical evidence that the masking of nurses or healthy workers
prevents the transmission of influenza."
"No one cares more about protecting
the public health than nurses as we are on the frontlines in protecting our
patients from all types of illnesses, including the flu, every day," said
MNA/NNU president Donna Kelly-Williams, RN. "But we cannot and will not support
useless policies, especially policies that are only designed to coerce nurses
into doing something against their better judgment and policies that may cause
them personal harm, with absolutely no benefit for any patients." "The medical
evidence shows that surgical masks are designed to prevent dispersion and are
not designed to prevent inhalation of airborne particles containing virus,
therefore masks would be more effective if placed on people who are coughing or
sneezing, whether patients or workers," says Margaret O'Connor, an occupational
health and safety specialist with the MNA/NNU. "Masking an asymptomatic nurse is
neither preventive in the spread of infection nor appropriate." O'Connor added,
"Under hospital masking policies, patients, visitors and vendors, who are more
likely to be vectors of illnesses, are free to walk around facilities unmasked
while nurses and others are forced to wear masks, with no benefit to the patient
population."
The MNA/NNU position is strongly supported by a nationally
recognized expert on the issue. "Mandatory masking in lieu of vaccination of
healthcare workers as is being implemented in Massachusetts makes no sense and
will do little to stop the spread of infection," said William Buchta , MD, MPH,
who is a Fellow with the American College of Occupational and Environmental
Medicine, and a medical director of employee occupational health Service at Mayo
Clinic, and who was in Massachusetts two weeks ago to speak about flu prevention
and vaccination programs. "There are a number of proven means of reducing
hospital infections that need to be implemented, but this is not one of them."

I am not a fan of the flu shot. I don't get it for myself or my kids. In my personal anecdotal non-scientific experience, I know a lot of people who get the shot and a lot who don't, and there is NO correlation there in terms of who gets the flu and who doesn't.

That said, a nurse working in critical care has an increased obligation to protect patients, and if she refuses it during the height of flu season, she should temporarily take on administrative duties instead of patient care.

I don't think firing her is the answer, though.

I don't get the flu shot but if that were my job and it was requested, I would get it.

I thought about this some more last night. While I'll always support making health decisions based on our belief systems and our health I don't support what this nurse is doing. Just as I don't support a pharmacist not dispensing certain legal medications because it is against their belief system I think a nurse (and doctors) and anyone front line with sick people has the duty to take as many precautions as possible to halt the spread of disease. While the flu shot isn't going to stop all flu strains if it stops 2 that is 2 that do not get spread in the hospital.

What happened to body autonomy? Why should she be forced to put something in her body that she was comfortable with? I am sure as a veteran nurse she was knowledgeable on how to not spread her germs.

That being said I think employers have the right to fire whomever they would like, I just disagree with firing an employee over something like this when all other indicators show her to be a great employee

Except a couple of years ago a nurse at my husband's hospital infected many people with the swine flu and did not call in sick the whole time he was sick til it was very late. He got so sick he died. How many patients did he infect?

I would love to see documented cases of healthcare workers spreading the flu to patients. I would bet that the instance is rare, especially if the nurse is utilizing proper standard precautions for all patients.

When I was in Labor and Delivery with my 32 weeks along pregnancy, my nurse had the flu and could hardly focus on her work. She was slow in responding when I would tell her my contractions were hard and her nose was running everywhere. She was coughing. But I was in no position to do anything. i ended up delivering and coming down with the flu with a preemie. I was so angry. A lot of. Nurses and doctors do not take necessary precautions.

I agree with this (and work in healthcare). Some take all the precautions all the time, some take the precautions some of the time and some only do it if asked. Even basic handwashing is neglected by many never mond the 30 second scrub you are supposed to do. The amount of effort hospitals spend on campaigns to have proper handwashing and other common sense actions is disturbing. They have to though because some people don't think the rules should apply to them or they think the rules are stupid. This is all for people who SHOULD know better.

I agree with this (and work in healthcare). Some take all the precautions all the time, some take the precautions some of the time and some only do it if asked. Even basic handwashing is neglected by many never mond the 30 second scrub you are supposed to do. The amount of effort hospitals spend on campaigns to have proper handwashing and other common sense actions is disturbing. They have to though because some people don't think the rules should apply to them or they think the rules are stupid. This is all for people who SHOULD know better.

I used to work with someone who would go to the bathroom, not wash her hands, and if someone was standing outside the bathroom door she would shake her hands like she was drying them. No water ever ran and we worked at a docs office and she was an RN.

I've worked in two nursing homes and we had to get the flu shot in the business office. When I asked why, I was told as the receptionist, I handed out their spending money on "payday" and they couldn't take a chance. I can't imagine a nurse/nurses aid who touches patients all of the time thinking it's OK to not get them. I had the flu this year and would hate to think what it would have been like if I hadn't had the shot and with a little one and a sick FIL I would have never forgiven myself if I hadn't taken the safest route I could for them and they were harmed by my decision. I just can't fathom not caring about the patients you could infect enough to either quit or get the shot (because I don't know anybody who actually has a religious reason; EVERYONE I've met IRL or online doesn't mind lying to get the exemption they want).

Hahahaa. I'm the "uneducated" loser in the thread who totally thinks that flu shots are stupid. I feel sorry for the nurse. I'm sure she got hired somewhere else! I respect the right of her employer to fire her, and I respect her right to have personal principals!

I don't get one. I remember totally being like, SHAMED into one by one of my healthcare providers during the swineflu scam when I was pregnant ~ basically told that I was doing to kill my baby..........yeah. No. Sorry.

When I was in Labor and Delivery with my 32 weeks along pregnancy, my nurse had the flu and could hardly focus on her work. She was slow in responding when I would tell her my contractions were hard and her nose was running everywhere. She was coughing. But I was in no position to do anything. i ended up delivering and coming down with the flu with a preemie. I was so angry. A lot of. Nurses and doctors do not take necessary precautions.

"myyams" wrote:

Except a couple of years ago a nurse at my husband's hospital infected many people with the swine flu and did not call in sick the whole time he was sick til it was very late. He got so sick he died. How many patients did he infect?

BUT, did these 2 nurses get the flu shot?

I see these nurses both as folks who should not be working while ill which is not the issue we are debating.

I'm cool with general people choosing not to get the flu shot. I don't really get the thinking, but it doesn't matter to me. But again, she is working with critically ill patients. I feel like if you work in that position, you have an obligation to take reasonable precautions to protect them, and I don't really see why a flu shot would not be considered a reasonable precaution. Sure, it's not a guarantee, but is anything a guarantee? That's like saying that nurses should be able to choose whether or not to wash their hands because washing your hands is no guarantee that you will get all of the germs off of your person (could still be on their clothes after all.) To me, getting an annual flu shot and washing your hands are both such non-big-deal reasonable things to ask of someone who is in the position to potentially spread infection to already sick and compromised patients.

1- You can still be a carrier of the flu if vax'd.
2- You can still get the flu if vax'd all depends on the strain.
3- Vax can cause current strains to mutate.
4- Washing hands and staying home when sick, and wearing a mask all prevent spreading of germs.
5- The flu vax (depending on type and brand) contains things like mercury, Formaldehyde in doses above the CDC's recommended dose for adults.

----
I do understand the push to vaccinate medical workers, just not sure it is actually effective in reducing the transfer of the disease. I think they should push harder for handwashing, wearing masks, and sending people home if they come in sick, to the point of loosing their jobs if they do not do these things.

I do understand the push to vaccinate medical workers, just not sure it is actually effective in reducing the transfer of the disease. I think they should push harder for handwashing, wearing masks, and sending people home if they come in sick, to the point of loosing their jobs if they do not do these things.

I can admit that my refusal to get it is probably illogical. I have never had the flu. No one in my family has ever had the flu. I fully vaccinate my kids and myself (though we do delay only a very very select few and for only a short time, namely those given at birth).........I'm just weird about it. Dental xrays too. And milk

I can admit that my refusal to get it is probably illogical. I have never had the flu. No one in my family has ever had the flu. I fully vaccinate my kids and myself (though we do delay only a very very select few and for only a short time, namely those given at birth).........I'm just weird about it. Dental xrays too. And milk

It will catch up to you eventually. DH had one in 96 (I was pregnant at the time) and he got bronchotis from it, he never got another one till the year after all of us had it. I'm talking the 4 of us and my parents, it was complete hell. Since then, we have all gotten one EVERY yr.

1- You can still be a carrier of the flu if vax'd.
2- You can still get the flu if vax'd all depends on the strain.
3- Vax can cause current strains to mutate.
4- Washing hands and staying home when sick, and wearing a mask all prevent spreading of germs.
5- The flu vax (depending on type and brand) contains things like mercury, Formaldehyde in doses above the CDC's recommended dose for adults.

----
I do understand the push to vaccinate medical workers, just not sure it is actually effective in reducing the transfer of the disease. I think they should push harder for handwashing, wearing masks, and sending people home if they come in sick, to the point of loosing their jobs if they do not do these things.

I was 16 when I had my one and only bout of the flu. I remember laying under a pile of blankets with the heat turned way up, shivering and aching. I get my kids vaccinated each year - we have quite a long cold and flu season - and DH and I get the flu shot as well to offer Ben whatever protection we can offer him. His asthma is triggered by viruses and he can get very sick really fast. A year ago RSV put him in the hospital for 5 days because his airways had all but slammed shut. I don't want to ever see him like that again, and if getting a flu shot keeps him that much healthier, we'll do it.