This commentator from NCRonline argues that Catholics and Orthodox are the closest they've ever been to re-union, despite "the historically different forms in which...our doctrine [is] taught"(!!). Is that good news or bad news?

"As we celebrate another Week of Prayer for Christianity, what is there to fuel our hope that this isn’t all just an exercise in futility? What’s to celebrate?

Signals are there that this movement called “ecumenical” does in fact move, that reflection as we go along on an increasing degree of “life together” is shaping our perception of the future in positive ways.One noteworthy sign of this was the statement by the North American Orthodox-Catholic Theological Consultation last October.

For the past forty-five years they have been sifting through the pastoral and doctrinal issues that historically have prevented our churches from sharing a single life of faith, sacraments and witness before the world. But in this document, as indicated by its title, they are getting down to brass tacks: “Steps Towards A Reunited Church: A Sketch of an Orthodox-Catholic Vision for the Future.”....[The consultation concluded that:]

The Pope and the Orthodox Primates could invite all the faithful under their jurisdiction to recognize each other’s Churches as ‘sister Churches’ that fully realize the Apostolic faith in doctrine, sacraments, and ecclesial life, despite the historically different forms in which our liturgy is celebrated, our doctrine taught, and our community life structured.

The fact that consultation members have reached the stage where they are concretely imagining it means that full communion between the Latin, Eastern Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches is closer than it has ever been before."

« Last Edit: January 19, 2011, 06:08:11 PM by Jetavan »

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If you will, you can become all flame.Extra caritatem nulla salus.In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness". सर्वभूतहितἌνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas GandhiY dduw bo'r diolch.

This commentator from NCRonline argues that Catholics and Orthodox are the closest they've ever been to re-union, despite "the historically different forms in which...our doctrine [is] taught"(!!). Is that good news or bad news?

"As we celebrate another Week of Prayer for Christianity, what is there to fuel our hope that this isn’t all just an exercise in futility? What’s to celebrate?

Signals are there that this movement called “ecumenical” does in fact move, that reflection as we go along on an increasing degree of “life together” is shaping our perception of the future in positive ways.One noteworthy sign of this was the statement by the North American Orthodox-Catholic Theological Consultation last October.

For the past forty-five years they have been sifting through the pastoral and doctrinal issues that historically have prevented our churches from sharing a single life of faith, sacraments and witness before the world. But in this document, as indicated by its title, they are getting down to brass tacks: “Steps Towards A Reunited Church: A Sketch of an Orthodox-Catholic Vision for the Future.”....[The consultation concluded that:]

The Pope and the Orthodox Primates could invite all the faithful under their jurisdiction to recognize each other’s Churches as ‘sister Churches’ that fully realize the Apostolic faith in doctrine, sacraments, and ecclesial life, despite the historically different forms in which our liturgy is celebrated, our doctrine taught, and our community life structured.

The fact that consultation members have reached the stage where they are concretely imagining it means that full communion between the Latin, Eastern Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches is closer than it has ever been before."

This commentator from NCRonline argues that Catholics and Orthodox are the closest they've ever been to re-union, despite "the historically different forms in which...our doctrine [is] taught"(!!). Is that good news or bad news?

"As we celebrate another Week of Prayer for Christianity, what is there to fuel our hope that this isn’t all just an exercise in futility? What’s to celebrate?

Signals are there that this movement called “ecumenical” does in fact move, that reflection as we go along on an increasing degree of “life together” is shaping our perception of the future in positive ways.One noteworthy sign of this was the statement by the North American Orthodox-Catholic Theological Consultation last October.

For the past forty-five years they have been sifting through the pastoral and doctrinal issues that historically have prevented our churches from sharing a single life of faith, sacraments and witness before the world. But in this document, as indicated by its title, they are getting down to brass tacks: “Steps Towards A Reunited Church: A Sketch of an Orthodox-Catholic Vision for the Future.”....[The consultation concluded that:]

The Pope and the Orthodox Primates could invite all the faithful under their jurisdiction to recognize each other’s Churches as ‘sister Churches’ that fully realize the Apostolic faith in doctrine, sacraments, and ecclesial life, despite the historically different forms in which our liturgy is celebrated, our doctrine taught, and our community life structured.

The Orthodox primates couldn't. If they did, they would cease to confess the Orthodox Faith and joining the corresponding "sui juris" jurisdiction in submission to the Vatican. Of course, if the Pope did, and confessed the Orthodox Faith, that would be a different matter.

Quote

The fact that consultation members have reached the stage where they are concretely imagining it means that full communion between the Latin, Eastern Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches is closer than it has ever been before."

I thought we are constantly told the Latin and "Eastern Catholics" are already in full communion.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Pope Hormisdas didn't think so, which is why he attempted to impose his Formula on the other Patriarchates.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

The Orthodox primates couldn't. If they did, they would cease to confess the Orthodox Faith and joining the corresponding "sui juris" jurisdiction in submission to the Vatican. Of course, if the Pope did, and confessed the Orthodox Faith, that would be a different matter.

In the sourcetext there is disclaimer that it would happened if the RCC Pope dropped his universal jurisdiction.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

The Orthodox primates couldn't. If they did, they would cease to confess the Orthodox Faith and joining the corresponding "sui juris" jurisdiction in submission to the Vatican. Of course, if the Pope did, and confessed the Orthodox Faith, that would be a different matter.

In the sourcetext there is disclaimer that it would happened if the RCC Pope dropped his universal jurisdiction.

LOL. The fine print.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

The Orthodox primates couldn't. If they did, they would cease to confess the Orthodox Faith and joining the corresponding "sui juris" jurisdiction in submission to the Vatican. Of course, if the Pope did, and confessed the Orthodox Faith, that would be a different matter.

In the sourcetext there is disclaimer that it would happened if the RCC Pope dropped his universal jurisdiction.

This is the awful stumbling block. The Pope is not ready for unity. He is not ready to accept that, like all bishops, he is subject to the authority of Councils and like all bishops he enjoys one vote at such events.

Nor is he ready to renounce his personal (non ex consensu ecclesiae) infallibility.

These two issues -papal primacy and papal infallibility- may not be resolved for centuries. There has been no sign at all that the Pope has made any concrete moves towards renouncing them for the sake of unity. Lots of talk -Yes! Lots of international confabs - Yes! But no movement by Rome on these theological issues.

The Orthodox primates couldn't. If they did, they would cease to confess the Orthodox Faith and joining the corresponding "sui juris" jurisdiction in submission to the Vatican. Of course, if the Pope did, and confessed the Orthodox Faith, that would be a different matter.

In the sourcetext there is disclaimer that it would happened if the RCC Pope dropped his universal jurisdiction.

This is the awful stumbling block. The Pope is not ready for unity. He is not ready to accept that, like all bishops, he is subject to the authority of Councils and like all bishops he enjoys one vote at such events.

Nor is he ready to renounce his personal (non ex consensu ecclesiae) infallibility.

These two issues -papal primacy and papal infallibility- may not be resolved for centuries. There has been no sign at all that the Pope has made any concrete moves towards renouncing them for the sake of unity. Lots of talk -Yes! Lots of international confabs - Yes! But no movement by Rome on these theological issues.

LOL. Zenit and NCRegister say these things all the time. To me, they seem like "The Star" or some other tabloid you see at the cash registers (at least here in the States), saying something like "World ending! RC-Orthodox union eminent!"

In Christ,Andrew

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"I will pour out my prayer unto the Lord, and to Him will I proclaim my grief; for with evils my soul is filled, and my life unto hades hath drawn nigh, and like Jonah I will pray: From corruption raise me up, O God." -Ode VI, Irmos of the Supplicatory Canon to the Theotokos

Oh, I would like to think we are close, but this forum convinces me more and more each day, that we are not close.

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Oh, I would like to think we are close, but this forum convinces me more and more each day, that we are not close.

It's the Pope, Papist. He is not ready.

Oh no Fr. Ambrose, He' ready. The EOs are not.

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

No, it's not the EO's. We are simply waiting on the Pope to realize his fallibility.

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Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

Oh, I would like to think we are close, but this forum convinces me more and more each day, that we are not close.

Good.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Oh, I would like to think we are close, but this forum convinces me more and more each day, that we are not close.

Good.

LOL. Suprise, surprise.

Oh, and by the way, I don't think you would like the reasons why I don't think we are close.

« Last Edit: January 19, 2011, 08:53:20 PM by Papist »

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Oh, I would like to think we are close, but this forum convinces me more and more each day, that we are not close.

Good.

LOL. Suprise, surprise.

Oh, and by the way, I don't think you would like the reasons why I don't think we are close.

"And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Oh, I would like to think we are close, but this forum convinces me more and more each day, that we are not close.

It's the Pope, Papist. He is not ready.

Oh no Fr. Ambrose, He' ready. The EOs are not.

We aren't ready for a whole-sale shared communion on the current terms of the Roman Church. As the OP's linked article shows there is a lot to be done on the Roman side regarding the office of the Pope before we could seriously consider any sort of inter-communion. As of now, no, the Pope is not ready to reform the Roman magisterium along Orthodox lines.

Believe me, I would like to think we are close as well, but then I would like to think a lot of things that are very different from reality. I would like to think putting on a red cape with an "S" shield would enable me to fly, but sadly (as I found out on Halloween in 1984) it doesn't work like that.

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"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are." TH White

Oh, I would like to think we are close, but this forum convinces me more and more each day, that we are not close.

How close we are depends on which EO bishop you ask. To some bishops, we are unbaptized heretics. But if you ask other bishops, including a certain EO Primus inter Pares, the impression given is somewhat different.

I think the outlook on our side is usually rosy because the EO who are willing to meet and talk with us tend to be the more ecumenical, irenic ones. The "Graceless Heretics" contingent keeps its distance. But it also makes up the Orthodox Churches, so I think we have been too optimistic.

How close we are depends on which EO bishop you ask. To some bishops, we are unbaptized heretics. But if you ask other bishops, including a certain EO Primus inter Pares, the impression given is somewhat different.

Does anyone have a link to the EP's famous "Friends, Romans, Heretics" speech he gave at Georgetown University?

How close we are depends on which EO bishop you ask. To some bishops, we are unbaptized heretics. But if you ask other bishops, including a certain EO Primus inter Pares, the impression given is somewhat different.

Does anyone have a link to the EP's famous "Friends, Romans, Heretics" speech he gave at Georgetown University?

Your Eminences, Your Excellencies and Graces, Father O'Donovan, President of this University, Honored Guests, Beloved children in the Lord:

It is a special honor that this distinguished University confers the title of Honorary Doctor upon my Modesty. This is an opportunity for us to approach one another and communicate in the spirit of brotherhood. Although we proclaim that we worship the one and same Lord Jesus Christ, whose name we bear as Christians, we seek in common the causes of our divergence.

In the distant past, great attempts have been made by both sides to prove, and motivated by a different spirit, each side has judged the other as being divergent from the true faith.

This deeply rooted conviction of our divergence has led us to a thousand years of separate and autonomous courses. We confirm not with unexpected astonishment, but neither with indifference, that indeed the divergence between us continually increases and the end point to which our courses are taking us, foreseeably, are indeed different. Our heart is opposed to the specter of an everlasting separation. Our heart requires that we seek again our common foundations, and the original starting point that we share. So that, retrospectively we can discover the point and the reasons for our divergence that led to separate courses, and be able, by lifting blame, to proceed thereafter on the same road leading to the same common goal.

Assuredly our problem is neither geographical nor one of personal alienation. Neither is it a problem of organizational structures, nor jurisdictional arrangements. Neither is it a problem of external submission, nor absorption of individuals and groups. It is something deeper and more substantive.

The manner in which we exist has become ontologically different. Unless our ontological transfiguration and transformation toward one common model of life is achieved, not only in form but also in substance, unity and its accompanying realization become impossible.

No one ignores the fact that the model for all of us is the person of the Theanthropos (God-Man) Jesus Christ. But which model? No one ignores the fact that the incorporation in Him is achieved within His body, the Church. But whose church?

Because of the varying responses to these basic questions, we marched on divergent courses. This is easily understood and unavoidable. For whether we comprehend this or not, our existence is ontologically shaped in symphony and harmony with our inner self. According to the description of our Lord, in Matthew 15:11, not what goes into the mouth defiles a man, but what comes out of the mouth. This means that our essence is in continuous transformation [Romans 12:2; 2 Corinthians 3:18] by the renewing of your mind, and in the reflected glory of the Lord.

A characteristic detail, that cannot be understood without special attention, just as is described in the Old Testament, is that Jacob succeeded in having his flock bear multicolored lambs by placing before them multicolored rods [Genesis 30:37-43]. In a similar way, the Apostle Paul writing to the Corinthians says that we are being transformed into the likeness of the image of the glory of the Lord, which we reflect. Consequently the glory of the Lord, which we see, as in a mirror, is that which transforms us. This glory is that to which we are likened. The reflection of the divine glory recreates or otherwise regenerates us into something other or different in essence than our previous nature. Therefore, transformation into the image of the Lord and the image of His body becomes the fundamental pursuit of our life, accomplished in essence by the intervention of the Holy Spirit.

Therefore we do not engage in idle talk and discuss intellectual concepts which do not influence our lives. We discuss the essence of the Being who truly is, to whom we seek to become assimilated by the grace of God, and because of the inadequacy of human terms, we call this the image of the glory of the Lord. Based on this image, and in the likeness of this image, we become partakers of the divine nature [2 Peter 1:4]. We are truly changed, although neither earth, nor voice, nor custom distinguish us from the rest on mankind. [To Diognetos 2, P.G. 2,1173]

This change, which is bestowed on us from the right hand of the Most High, remains hidden, secret and mystical to many. And thus, a life which is directed toward Him is called mystical. That which leads to divine grace are called mysteries. The entire change of both language and intellect is beyond comprehension and when directed by God leads to unspeakable mysteries.

However, the change of man's essence, theosis by grace, is a fact that is tangible for all the Orthodox faithful. Grace is not only obtained through the transformed relics of the saints, which is totally inexplicable without acceptance of the divine. Grace also radiates from living Saints who are truly in the likeness of the Lord [Luke 8:46]. This change is also obtained through Holy Baptism which through grace transforms the neophyte. The transformation may only be grasped and discerned by the senses of those, who have been baptized, and who are receptive to it without external persuasion. According to the trustworthy testimony of devout Christians, divine grace even infuses the inanimate. This too, is discerned by those who are sensitive and pure of heart. Grace can also be obtained by the presence of the Saints who have influenced and sanctified, and to a degree transformed, natural objects and places.

Therefore, the Orthodox Christian does not live in a place of theoretical and conceptual conversations, but rather in a place of an essential and empirical lifestyle and reality as confirmed by grace in the heart [Hebrews 13:9]. This grace cannot be put in doubt either by logic or science or other type of argument.

Our conception of Holy Tradition moves upon the same track. Holy Tradition for the Orthodox Christian is not just some collection of teachings, texts outside the Holy Scriptures and based on their oral tradition within the Church. It is this, but not only this. First and foremost, it is a living and essential imparting of life and grace, namely, it is an essential and tangible reality, propagated from generation to generation within the Orthodox Church. This transmittal of the faith, like the circulation of the sap of life from the tree to the branch, from the body to the member, from the Church to the believer, presumes that one is grafted to the fruitful olive tree [Romans 11:23-25], the embodiment in the body (Romans 12:5; 1 Corinthians 10:16-17, 12:12-27).

Membership in the Church is not an act of cataloging a person as a member of a group but it is the true rebirth of this person in a new world, the world of grace. From that moment forward, he or she is nourished and grows a new body which is of different substance than the body of the flesh, and is joined with the body of Christ through baptism.

The relevant baptismal Hymn, Whoever is baptized in Christ, has been clothed in Christ is not simply symbolism or a poetic allegory. It is a real fact that brings change in the substance of the human being.

Those baptized as infants, whose Orthodox parents grafted them into the body of the Church, are unable to express in words the change that took place in them, but they feel it. However, those present at the moment of baptism who have purity of heart see the grace that surrounds them. Those baptized at a more mature age and with depth of faith are able to describe the liberating feeling of renouncing the devil and joining Christ.

This ontological view of the life in Christ entails a substantial element of the experience of the Eastern Orthodox Church. The glow of its light illumines all facets of our ecclesiastical and personal life in the Church and disposes of the need for foolish inquires. The Master himself knocks on the door, and seeks that we open to him the door of our entire being, so that he may enter and break bread with us. This is the foundational issue and posture for us as Orthodox. Understanding this opens the door for communication and makes dialogue possible.

The same ontological position of the Orthodox Church brings us to the difficult issues before us.

Let us look at some:

Regarding Dogma, the Orthodox Church maintains an apparently opposing position. On the one hand, Orthodoxy has never started a dogmatic dialogue, on the other hand, the Church has never neglected one. And let me explain why.

As we have said, the Orthodox faithful awaits and desires to become the reflection of the glory of God and through the grace of the Holy Spirit he becomes an image of our Lord Jesus Christ. He desires, in other words, to immediately know one person of the Trinity, Jesus Christ, and through him the remaining two, the unapproachable person of the Father, and through the Son alone, the person of the Holy Spirit. The Orthodox Christian strives towards purity of Heart for the visitation of grace, and having been fulfilled, is able to behold the sought-after glory of God. Being thus transformed, from glory to glory, the Orthodox Christian approaches God. On the spiritual journey a dogmatic description of the manifestation of the Lord and his Body, the Church, is not required because our experienced guide at every moment protects us from deception, and allows us to accept the Glory of the Lord in any appearance it takes. Therefore, experiencing the Dogma of the Church is not something that is taught through intellectual teachings, but it is learned through the example of him who, through the incarnation, joined Himself to us. To this point, dogma is life and life is the expression of dogma. However, a mere theoretical discussion on the meaning of life and dogma is unnecessary.

However, the evil opponent of man tries to interject between the enlightened faithful and the illuminating glory, his own distorted filter, that is a doctrine, a false glory, so that he might deceive the faithful as being the same. In this case, the Church, like a good shepherd, hurries to guide the faithful towards right glory. The entire body of the Church rises and vigorously warns that the said doctrine is false and that, by embracing it, it separates us from the true glory of God, leads us off the track resulting in the loss of our desired goal. The Church therefore, to protect the faithful from missing the mark, battles the distortions of the glory of God, that cunning spirits continuously plant.

Consequently, this difference in dogmatic theory does not lend itself to systematic analysis. Because, a systematic exposure of this dogmatic teaching could be understood only spiritually and therefore could harm the purity of the pure vision that the faithful has, by the voluntary import of all distortions. That is, immediate empirical and living knowledge of the only true glory of God and not the epistemological enumeration of a multitude of false imitations. This is summarized in the recognition that for those who have an immediate personal knowledge of the Lord, any description of him is rendered needless. For those that are on the road to knowing him, but still do not, a correct presentation of the basic elements of His glory is useful to have and particularly as much as it is necessary so that they do not engage in false beliefs.

Concerning those that have freely chosen to shun the correct Glory of God, the Orthodox Church follows the Apostle Paul's recommendation which is a man that is a heretic after the first and second admonition, reject (Titus 3,10). The same, of course, does not hold true for those who ask you a reason for the hope that is in you with meekness and fear (1 Peter 3:15). Therefore the Orthodox Church is always open for every good-faith dialogue but declines to partake in planted squabbles, because there is always a danger to be misunderstood in such a context.

If time and your kindness permit, let us examine one such case so you can better discern our position.

The nature of the Church, viewed in the light of the Orthodox Faith, is a reality which is recognized spiritually and not descriptively. Each one of us knows the members of his own body not because he has been taught about them or because they have been described in detail by anyone. He knows them, in a special way, because of the direct and living bond with them, even if he does not understand this scientifically.

The Church is our body. As a result of the existence of its Head, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, before all time, and before creation, the Church co-exists with Him before all time. The Church is not an imaginary entity, is not a legal entity, a mere gathering of the faithful, or a worldly establishment or creation. The Church is Christ and those that He chooses, in one body with him for all ages.

The comprehension of the meaning of this, as much as is possible, assumes living this reality fully. That is, what our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life (1 John 1:1), without exception, a sense of the union of all things in Christ, in Whom all things surmised, not pantheistically, but christologically.

All this leads to the conclusion that the organization, the goals, the functions and all aspects of the life of the Church are not determined by human judgment, but the real and unchanging nature of the Church. Thus, the steadfastness of the Orthodox Church on ecclesiastical assumptions of every type is not the product of any narrow perception, but the natural result of our living ecclesiastical experience. We are not talking about an object, subjected to our free manipulation, but of an existence independent of our desires and directed by him who governs all things and Who bestowed upon us limited responsibility or ministry. The starting point of the occasionally misunderstood position of the Orthodox Church concerning ecclesiological matters is rediscovered in the essence of this ministry in this real body directed by its head, the Lord Jesus Christ.

So much for this.

Time is passing and the subject cannot be exhausted. However, in these few words your judgment is expected regarding my thoughts about our hope, a hope starting from a living experience rather than an intellectual conception.

We thank you for your patience and attention. Our love towards you is warm. Let not the simplicity of my words cloud your judgment regarding their truth. You are able to understand the words of the divine Logos through the uttering of human words. Let us always hear the words of the divine Logos so that His grace may always be with us. For this indeed is our wish for you.

Thank you.

« Last Edit: January 20, 2011, 10:34:24 AM by Apotheoun »

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"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality." St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."St. Theodore Studite

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

rejection of the prevalent view among Orthodox that full communion means unity of churches, OR

that the RC and Orthodox churches are united, in which case the result would be a contradiction between the RC Pope's claim to be an imperial-style Supreme Ruler in relation to Orthodox Patriarchs and claims of one-man infallible faith-setting statements (ie the so called infallibility when speaking on matters of faith), and the Orthodox rejection of such a claim.

Sorry if the reminder of this problem is redundant.

Regards.

« Last Edit: January 20, 2011, 12:41:13 PM by rakovsky »

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The ocean, impassable by men, and the world beyond it are directed by the same ordinances of the Master. ~ I Clement 20

Oh, I would like to think we are close, but this forum convinces me more and more each day, that we are not close.

Good.

LOL. Suprise, surprise.

Oh, and by the way, I don't think you would like the reasons why I don't think we are close.

"And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

Yup, the Catholic faith has made me free.

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

Oh, I would like to think we are close, but this forum convinces me more and more each day, that we are not close.

How close we are depends on which EO bishop you ask. To some bishops, we are unbaptized heretics. But if you ask other bishops, including a certain EO Primus inter Pares, the impression given is somewhat different.

I think the outlook on our side is usually rosy because the EO who are willing to meet and talk with us tend to be the more ecumenical, irenic ones. The "Graceless Heretics" contingent keeps its distance. But it also makes up the Orthodox Churches, so I think we have been too optimistic.

I am pretty sure that if you sat Patriarch Bartholomew I down and really talked about Baptism and grace in Sacraments you actually would get the concurring answer that your "Sacraments" are graceless.

This commentator from NCRonline argues that Catholics and Orthodox are the closest they've ever been to re-union, despite "the historically different forms in which...our doctrine [is] taught"(!!). Is that good news or bad news?

Not news at all, just business as usual. It's when RC commentators don't makes clueless comments about our imminent union that I would start to look around and wonder what's happened.

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But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."

This commentator from NCRonline argues that Catholics and Orthodox are the closest they've ever been to re-union, despite "the historically different forms in which...our doctrine [is] taught"(!!). Is that good news or bad news?

Not news at all, just business as usual. It's when RC commentators don't makes clueless comments about our imminent union that I would start to look around and wonder what's happened.

I have a feeling that that is the Patriarchal Cathedral of Saint George in Istanbul Constantinople.

Wow...that's alot of bling!

Bling? my goodness....

Ya, shiny stuff...forgive me, I am a rap artist in a parallel dimension

I know what it is...I am simply not accustomed to hanging out with the wood clay and glass folks and having the beauty of Catholic temples referred to as Bling!!

Who are the 'wood clay and glass folks'?

In my dictionary...and I am not indicating that you are one of them...but anyone who thinks that there's too much Bling in Catholic and Orthodox churches...and, here's the key...It should be gotten rid of and replaced with more 'umble fare....thus wood, clay and glass.

Oh, I would like to think we are close, but this forum convinces me more and more each day, that we are not close.

How close we are depends on which EO bishop you ask. To some bishops, we are unbaptized heretics. But if you ask other bishops, including a certain EO Primus inter Pares, the impression given is somewhat different.

I think the outlook on our side is usually rosy because the EO who are willing to meet and talk with us tend to be the more ecumenical, irenic ones. The "Graceless Heretics" contingent keeps its distance. But it also makes up the Orthodox Churches, so I think we have been too optimistic.

I am pretty sure that if you sat Patriarch Bartholomew I down and really talked about Baptism and grace in Sacraments you actually would get the concurring answer that your "Sacraments" are graceless.

And judging by your signature, to you, that would merely be a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

I am friends with a priest's daughter. She is a very knowledgeable and pious young woman, and we frequently discuss Orthodox/Catholic issues. The biggest issues, to her, are not doctrinal (and I agree with her), but practical. The lifestyle of the Orthodox parish and the practice of the Divine Liturgy are completely out of sync with the style of modern Roman Catholic parishes. Eastern Catholics are much better (she even says that she does not mind them), but she described the Masses that she went too at the local Catholic high school as seeming "graceless".

I didn't take offense because I understand exactly what she means. The way the new Mass is celebrated is such a distinct break with tradition in the Catholic Church that it has made us, in many ways, almost unrecognizable as your brethren. We have become Protestantized, and you know it, the traditionalist Catholics know it, but many of us don't know it. The rampant irreverence and irregularities in the liturgy are, in my opinion, by far the largest barrier to us reuniting. Traditional Catholics will find the Eastern liturgy familiar - I certainly do, but to the regular pewbie who has had this liturgical tragedy foisted upon him and knows no better will feel out of place at an Eastern liturgy and it will not feel like "Mass" to him. Likewise, the new Mass barely feels like Divine Liturgy at all (people I have taken to the Latin Mass and the Divine Liturgy {at an Orthodox parish} have commented on its similarity).

So, I get it when she says that our sacraments feel graceless. When you see God dropped on the ground and picked up with not a care in the world, then 15 people trample the very spot where he lay - and no one checks to see if there are particles, that Mass feels graceless. When heretics and unbelievers receive communion without the priest so much as questioning, it feels graceless. When laity come out of the woodworks to distribute the Holy Gifts while the priest forfeits his position as intercessor for the people, it feels graceless.

When no one ever goes to confession, that is graceless.

There is quite a bit to criticize in our communion. Please criticize. I want those things fixed so much more than you.

But coming from you, deusveritasest, it just sounds obnoxious, especially with the attitude you display in your signature.

It also feels obnoxious when others say it - but I suspect the internet does not transmit tone quite as well, so I should give you all the benefit of the doubt.

« Last Edit: January 20, 2011, 08:23:32 PM by WetCatechumen »

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"And because they have nothing better to do, they take cushion and chairs to Rome. And while the Pope is saying liturgy, they go, 'Oh, oh, oh, filioque!' And the Pope say, 'Filioque? That-uh sound nice! I think I divide-uh the Church over it!'" - Comrade Real Presence