United look really rigid when Scholes and Giggs play in CM together. I think you're missing Kagawa how City missed Silva.

As if Kagawa can fix our problems. Our biggest problem at the moment is our manager, I'm sad to say. Everyone, all of our fans, opposition fans, opposition managers, pundits, literally everyone can see our problems. And literally everyone saw this performance (if not the result perhaps) coming. Everyone, bar Fergie. He's lost the plot. If that was any other manager I'd describe his season as utterly clueless. But it's Sir Alex Ferguson, the most successful manager in English history, so it's even worse.

No need to panic. It's November, we're second in the league and we won our CL group. We didn't do that well last season. There's 18 other teams in the league that'd take our position in a New York second 7 days a week and twice on Sundays.

No need to panic. It's November, we're second in the league and we won our CL group. We didn't do that well last season. There's 18 other teams in the league that'd take our position in a New York second 7 days a week and twice on Sundays.

The problem is I haven't seen this team produce consistently good football for several years now. Results or no results, trophies or no trophies, our style has become mind numbingly dull. There was a glimpse of exciting football at the start of last season, but other than that you'd have to go back to 2007/2008. Putting more trust in young and energetic players like Cleverley and Anderson would do wonders in that area, but for some reason Fergie keeps picking Scholes and Giggs over them. Even though it's blatantly clear it cripples our style and performances, he keeps doing it. And I'll admit, I'm massively worried he'll never learn.

The problem is I haven't seen this team produce consistently good football for several years now. Results or no results, trophies or no trophies, our style has become mind numbingly dull. There was a glimpse of exciting football at the start of last season, but other than that you'd have to go back to 2007/2008. Putting more trust in young and energetic players like Cleverley and Anderson would do wonders in that area, but for some reason Fergie keeps picking Scholes and Giggs over them. Even though it's blatantly clear it cripples our style and performances, he keeps doing it. And I'll admit, I'm massively worried he'll never learn.

Well, I think, rightly, Fergie proritize trophies over exciting play. Look at Arsenal, pundits have praised their style for years but they never win anything. We're winning and competing every year for major trophies that's incredibly rare.

Today's selection, while it turned out to be the wrong one, might have been a gamble out of necessity. You'd expect to be able to play your fringe players against a side such as Norwich and get the points. We can't and that's perhaps the bigger issue - our depth. But if you're second eleven, so to speak, can't play these games you're looking at a tired side come March/April.

The thing with Ando is that he can't play 90 minutes. He just doesn't have the stamina right now. It showed against Chelsea in the Carling Cup and it screwed us because we lost our driving force when he had to come off.

Well, I think, rightly, Fergie proritize trophies over exciting play. Look at Arsenal, pundits have praised their style for years but they never win anything. We're winning and competing every year for major trophies that's incredibly rare.

Today's selection, while it turned out to be the wrong one, might have been a gamble out of necessity. You'd expect to be able to play your fringe players against a side such as Norwich and get the points. We can't and that's perhaps the bigger issue - our depth. But if you're second eleven, so to speak, can't play these games you're looking at a tired side come March/April.

The thing with Ando is that he can't play 90 minutes. He just doesn't have the stamina right now. It showed against Chelsea in the Carling Cup and it screwed us because we lost our driving force when he had to come off.

There no logic at all in that. We'd want to play our fringe players in a Premier League game so we could field our best eleven in midweek in a superfluous Champions League group game, having already secured the top spot? There was no reason at all to rest Cleverley and/or Anderson. And if he doesn't trust Anderson's fitness, he should've sold him during the Summer and bought someone else. It's Fergie's mistake either way. For $#@!'s sake, Scholes has played more minutes than Cleverley and Giggs has even played double the minutes Anderson's played so far. This has $#@! all to do with necessity, it's sentimentality and a damning lack of trust in our youngsters.

And I don't buy that prioritizing trophies over performances. At the moment, our performances are down there with the worst the Premier League has to offer. We're a god awful team to watch and have been for some time, and most wins this season were achieved despite the team's performance. We've been incredibly lucky to win against sides like Southampton and Aston Villa. We've scored a lot of goals but only through individual brilliance and rarely through good team moves. We've approached these game all wrong and only won because of some outstanding performances by Van Persie and Hernandez. The Newcastle and Chelsea game have shown that if we start games with the right line-up, tactical idea and attitude, we can win difficult games by playing good football as a team, without having to rely on any individual. Both games we started without Giggs and Scholes by the way, and that's no coincidence.

Those two games aside, and perhaps the Arsenal game, I think Fergie made a complete mess of our tactics and line-ups and we could've easily lost many more of those games. If he doesn't realise this soon enough, I can guarantee you we'll neither win any trophy this season nor produce decent football consistently. All we're left with in that case is a team playing football that's as watchable as Stoke $#@!ing City and with the same amount of trophies. I'm never one to say Fergie out but there can be no question he's been making some wildly absurd decisions all through the season which have cost us big time already. Spurs and Norwich, everyone and their dog saw these results and performances coming, even without the benifit of hindsight. Fergie needs to do better, that much is certain.

There no logic at all in that. We'd want to play our fringe players in a Premier League game so we could field our best eleven in midweek in a superfluous Champions League group game, having already secured the top spot? There was no reason at all to rest Cleverley and/or Anderson. And if he doesn't trust Anderson's fitness, he should've sold him during the Summer and bought someone else. It's Fergie's mistake either way. For $#@!'s sake, Scholes has played more minutes than Cleverley and Giggs has even played double the minutes Anderson's played so far. This has $#@! all to do with necessity, it's sentimentality and a damning lack of trust in our youngsters.

It's not necessarily about the CL game. You have to look more long-term than that. If we could have gotten away with playing the team we did against Norwich players like Anderson and Clev will have gotten almost a two week rest. We'll play a youngster team tomorrow. Players like Powell, Vermilji, Wotton etc will get 90 minutes. You have to rotate the squad to be competitive over 38 games, at least that's my belief. Against Norwich we didn't get away with it but that's a bet you are forced to make during a season.

Originally Posted by Metal Warrior

And I don't buy that prioritizing trophies over performances. At the moment, our performances are down there with the worst the Premier League has to offer. We're a god awful team to watch and have been for some time, and most wins this season were achieved despite the team's performance. We've been incredibly lucky to win against sides like Southampton and Aston Villa. We've scored a lot of goals but only through individual brilliance and rarely through good team moves. We've approached these game all wrong and only won because of some outstanding performances by Van Persie and Hernandez. The Newcastle and Chelsea game have shown that if we start games with the right line-up, tactical idea and attitude, we can win difficult games by playing good football as a team, without having to rely on any individual. Both games we started without Giggs and Scholes by the way, and that's no coincidence.

Those two games aside, and perhaps the Arsenal game, I think Fergie made a complete mess of our tactics and line-ups and we could've easily lost many more of those games. If he doesn't realise this soon enough, I can guarantee you we'll neither win any trophy this season nor produce decent football consistently. All we're left with in that case is a team playing football that's as watchable as Stoke $#@!ing City and with the same amount of trophies. I'm never one to say Fergie out but there can be no question he's been making some wildly absurd decisions all through the season which have cost us big time already. Spurs and Norwich, everyone and their dog saw these results and performances coming, even without the benifit of hindsight. Fergie needs to do better, that much is certain.

I think the results, and performances, big clubs have gotten against them this season just goes to show how competitive the PL is this season. Just think about it, big clubs like Arsenal and Liverpool are already out of the title race. Everyone can beat anyone on their day this season.

This season will have many, many more surprises.

Originally Posted by squirrelbo1

Scholes still comes on and changes games. Cleverly is different class would start him with Carrick every week. Anderson ? Meh. Also hardly a youngster now.

Also fergie doesn't strike me as the sentimental type.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

The thing with Clev is that each time he's gotten a run of games he's gone down injured. He's still young and growing so it is possible he just can't play every week yet.

It's not necessarily about the CL game. You have to look more long-term than that. If we could have gotten away with playing the team we did against Norwich players like Anderson and Clev will have gotten almost a two week rest. We'll play a youngster team tomorrow. Players like Powell, Vermilji, Wotton etc will get 90 minutes. You have to rotate the squad to be competitive over 38 games, at least that's my belief. Against Norwich we didn't get away with it but that's a bet you are forced to make during a season.

How much of a rest do players need in November though? Do you really believe resting Cleverley for 2 weeks in November when he hasn't even played that many games to start with will make a difference in April? Some rotation is necessary, we all know that, however this is taking things way too far. If Cleverley had played nearly every game so far, I'd understand. As it stands though, Scholes has played more minutes and even Giggs isn't far off. Meanwhile Carrick is seriously overused. The balance is all wrong.

Originally Posted by three3-times

Its not just fergie $#@!ing up, its the players who are out of form, all we do is pass the ball to tony and he is SO one out of form and one dimensional its untrue.

time to go back to diamond me thinks

saf - i need to give ando more game time, then picks giggs and scholes ahead of him....says it all.

Teams in the prem, especially away from home, play with energy, sorry, but a CM pairing of giggs and carrick aint the one. our CM should ALWAYS be carrick an clevz or ando ffs

Obviously Valencia is woefully out of form and has been all season. However, it's the manager's responsibility to recognize that and take action. Fergie continue to play a formation and tactic where our only game plan is to have static midfielders sit deep and feed the ball to wingers, all of whom are clearly out of form. He's sticking his head in the sand and hoping our out of form players magically come good. And if Fergie feels he doesn't have other options, than it's because he didn't take the proper action during the summer.

Look, Fergie is still a fantastic manager. He could well take this squad to a league title, it's obviously not beyond him. I won't have any fond memories of this season either way though. I feel that somewhere along the way, he's put too much emphasis on results and we've lost a lot of entertainment value. And that just makes the games where we don't get a result all the more painful to watch.

How much of a rest do players need in November though? Do you really believe resting Cleverley for 2 weeks in November when he hasn't even played that many games to start with will make a difference in April? Some rotation is necessary, we all know that, however this is taking things way too far. If Cleverley had played nearly every game so far, I'd understand. As it stands though, Scholes has played more minutes and even Giggs isn't far off. Meanwhile Carrick is seriously overused. The balance is all wrong.

Looking at the schedule from now to new year it is pretty hectic. I agree that it is odd Clev hasn't played more than he has, we can speculate as to why but one almost have to think its got something to do with fitness perhaps.

I have to say though, I think both Scholes and Carrick has done well thus far. Scholes have had some off games but Carrick has been pretty consistent. Scholes also had a long period of no games this month.

Originally Posted by Metal Warrior

Obviously Valencia is woefully out of form and has been all season. However, it's the manager's responsibility to recognize that and take action. Fergie continue to play a formation and tactic where our only game plan is to have static midfielders sit deep and feed the ball to wingers, all of whom are clearly out of form. He's sticking his head in the sand and hoping our out of form players magically come good. And if Fergie feels he doesn't have other options, than it's because he didn't take the proper action during the summer.

Look, Fergie is still a fantastic manager. He could well take this squad to a league title, it's obviously not beyond him. I won't have any fond memories of this season either way though. I feel that somewhere along the way, he's put too much emphasis on results and we've lost a lot of entertainment value. And that just makes the games where we don't get a result all the more painful to watch.

Apparently we're after Ince in January. That would help off-load Valencia.

I don't know what the $#@! is happening, I used to love watching United play. I have looked forward to the matches in over 20 years. This is the first time I have ever felt like this. I just don't look forward to watching United no more. The football United play is so $#@!ing boring, it doesn't entertain me. Am I alone in this feeling?

“Two possibilities exist: Either we are alone in the Universe or we are not. Both are equally terrifying.” Arthur C. Clarke

I don't know what the $#@! is happening, I used to love watching United play. I have looked forward to the matches in over 20 years. This is the first time I have ever felt like this. I just don't look forward to watching United no more. The football United play is so $#@!ing boring, it doesn't entertain me. Am I alone in this feeling?

Nope. I've felt like that for a long time now. Some of the football in the last few years has been awful. I blame Madrid and Redondo. The football philosophy at United seemed to change after that night. From entertaining attacking football, to lets just do enough. And that came home to roost last year in the PL.

I have to say though, I think both Scholes and Carrick has done well thus far. Scholes have had some off games but Carrick has been pretty consistent. Scholes also had a long period of no games this month.

I don't know how you can say that. They've done well on the ball perhaps, but off the ball they've been a liability. Scholes has never really offered a lot there, but in a midfield two you can't get away with that. Carrick though, we expect much better in defense. Many of his performances have been dire and pointless, offering nothing either in attack or defense. Football isn't just played with the ball, and that's especially true in midfield. Bearing that in mind, Scholes and Carrick have been downright atrocious this season. Same with Giggs. Only Cleverley has performed as a modern midfielder so far - I can't really judge Anderson, not enough minutes.

I don't know how you can say that. They've done well on the ball perhaps, but off the ball they've been a liability. Scholes has never really offered a lot there, but in a midfield two you can't get away with that. Carrick though, we expect much better in defense. Many of his performances have been dire and pointless, offering nothing either in attack or defense. Football isn't just played with the ball, and that's especially true in midfield. Bearing that in mind, Scholes and Carrick have been downright atrocious this season. Same with Giggs. Only Cleverley has performed as a modern midfielder so far - I can't really judge Anderson, not enough minutes.

That's a bit extreme don't you think? Scholes has been useful at times this season, but is not always used right. He doesn't work well with Carrick because they both play deeper. We need Kagawa or Cleverley or Rooney in that midfield. Scholes, Carrick and a CAM playing will make things much better.

Scholes and Giggs are becoming a bit of a scapegoat now and others poor performances seem to be getting ignored, no one had a good game against Norwich, but the attitude has just been blame Giggs. That team we started with was very capable of beating Norwich but none of them performed.

That's a bit extreme don't you think? Scholes has been useful at times this season, but is not always used right. He doesn't work well with Carrick because they both play deeper. We need Kagawa or Cleverley or Rooney in that midfield. Scholes, Carrick and a CAM playing will make things much better.

Scholes and Giggs are becoming a bit of a scapegoat now and others poor performances seem to be getting ignored, no one had a good game against Norwich, but the attitude has just been blame Giggs. That team we started with was very capable of beating Norwich but none of them performed.

If you look at the context of that quote I don't think I'm being harsh. Scholes and lately Carrick as well are useless without the ball this season, and that's a major part of their job in a midfield 2. And I don't think other poor performances are being ignored, it's just that playing Giggs or Scholes have really become symptomatic for our dire performances.

I totally agree with what Metal is saying, most of you cant look past the fact that cos Giggs & Scholes are legends, they should be nowhere near our 1st team. Our CM needs energy and Clevz/Ando provide that.

I thought the boys did really well last night too. Good to see we have all our CB's now, i dont count Vida anymore as i dont think he will come back........sadly.

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