Polls show Farage as the victor of the EU debate

Tonight’s Clegg Farage debate on Britain’s membership of the EU was far more combative than last week’s. Nick Clegg came out swinging from the start. In a sign of how much Ukip have changed politics, it was Clegg who was behaving like the challenger and Farage the incumbent. But despite this change in tactics from Clegg, the result—according to the instant post-debate polls—was the same: a clear Farage win. Indeed, the polls had Farage ahead by an even bigger margin than last week.

The Liberal Democrats argue that these debates were not about Clegg ‘winning’, but of him enthusing the Liberal Democrat base and appealing to pro-European voters. I suspect that his blanket denunciations of ‘people like Nigel Farage’ and attacks on Ukip for wanting to go back to the days when WG Grace opened the batting for England did that. But I suspect, and the polls suggest, that this approach turned off other voters.

Farage rode Clegg’s punches well and kept positioning himself as the anti-establishment figure ranged against the political class and big business. This culminated in his closing appeal to join the ‘people’s army’ to topple the pro-EU establishment. These debates have given Ukip real momentum going into the European Elections. It was striking tonight how much Farage was pitching to the working class vote, on both immigration and green energy he emphasised how the real losers from these policy were low income voters. Farage knows that these voters hold the key to Ukip topping the poll in May.

A strong Ukip performance in the European Elections would send the Tory party into a frenzy. But the consolation for David Cameron from tonight’s debate was how Clegg seems to be accepting more and more of his renegotiation agenda. Indeed, Clegg was positively boasting about how the government had tightened up the benefit rules for EU migrants. It all left me thinking that Cameron’s pledge of an EU renegotiation is not as much of an obstacle to a second coalition with Clegg as Westminster thinks that it is.

“A strong Ukip performance in the European Elections would send the Tory party into a frenzy.”

How can we (Tories) be sent into a “frenzy” by something that most of us have seen coming for months? A UKIP win in May might, or might not, be a disaster for us, but it’s hardly likely to take us by surprise. Speaking as a Tory, my main hope now is that UKIP will begin to eat into the Labour vote as well as ours. Just being objective, old chap.

Aberrant_Apostrophe

“Indeed, Clegg was positively boasting about how the government had tightened up the benefit rules for EU migrants.”

Yeh, right up to the moment the European Court rules them illegal.

Mike

Perhaps we need a different style debate as a finale to the previous two. Most people just want a simple disclosure of a politicians views on a specific subject, and they don’t want 2 minutes of obfuscation and lies like we saw from Clegg.

Instead of the format of replying to questions from an audience and quoting stats and trading insults, it would be good to have a yes, no, don’t know response to all questions. Here’s an idea for this political questioning -

Have an equal number of awkward questions drawn from both camps (in and out) and the contestants (Farage & Clegg) restricted to a 5 second response time to reply yes, no or don’t know. Questions should be framed in terms like “Do you agree that we should withhold contributions to the EU until the accounts are signed off” or “Should the EU get involved in the Ukraine” (yes or no). Just as in many quiz programs, let the audience and viewing public vote on each response on whether they agree/disagree with the yes/no response and award a point accordingly.

A ‘don’t know’ automatically scores against you and you lose a point. A failure to respond with any of the 3 options within the time frame also results in a point award to other person. Any other response than ‘yes or no’ loses you a point to your opponent.

This would stop either party prevaricating, going off subject, smearing their opponent, wasting time and viewers could see at a glance whose in the lead.

Of course, this could never happen as the elite establishment would s*** themselves if forced into a challenge like this but it would still be good to try and sort the men from the boys (Clegg).

david croft

The shallow nature of the approach based on the economics and jobs argument. People do not seem to realise that a whole culture, the peculiarly Anglo-Saxon ideas that spread the ideas of Parliaments and democracy throughout the world has largely been, and continues to be, destroyed. This is much more important a discussion than economics. The EU and modern ‘British Establishment’ along with the globalists are striving ceaselessly to bring it about. All the changes they bring about are labelled as progress, ” don’t you realise it’s the 21st century”; in the main this is not so it is merely change. They cause the changes, then say they are just recognising that the world has changed and they are right to keep up with it and we poor mortals are wrong if we don’t like their agenda.
The corporatists and statists of course want the economic argument to the fore and both of these movements are globalist. The massive amounts of immigration and the interference from the European Commission, aided and abetted by Gramscians in the left-wing political parties has destroyed the institutions on which the whole British ethos was based. Little of this is left intact. Clegg, of course, likes this modern Britain, he has destroyed all the best aspects of the true British Society.
He is basically a displaced, rootless, misguided, Internationalist Utopian who
thinks he knows how to run your life better than you do. He likes modern Britain, but dislikes a truly British way of life. He likes it because it has no checks (he and his like have destroyed them), left on the sort of changes which he wishes to bring about.

The irony is that the immigrants, who came here for what they thought it was, will find that what they came for no longer exists, partly because they are helping in its destruction. It is the usual ” When we first came here it was ……… but it isn’t any longer”. Of course it isn’t, you and the modern establishment have destroyed it.

The EU is a mess and will become a democratically ungovernable monolith. It is much more likely to lead to wars because it will feel big enough to behave in an interfering and expansionist manner.
It may be too late to stop Clegg, Harmans, Millibands, Mandelson etc and the EU, who are rapidly putting places measures to stop opposition but at least we here in Britain and Europeans at large should know what is happening and what is in store for us all.
If you want Roman Law diktats as you legal system, rather Common Law and trial by jury, go along with Clegg and his like thinking colleagues. You heard him last night acting as their spokesman; think wery carefully about what he said.

starfish

I could not agree more. The subtext throughout Clegg’s argument was that the only way for the UK to ‘progress’ is in a global multinational context which means we have to be a part of the EU club. Yet there are many nations that seem to manage perfectly well outside such clubs. He also tried to imply that withdrawal from the EU would leave us alone and subject to some form of irresistible pressure. Being out of the EU is not synonymous with withdrawal from international organisationd and agreements. Indeed we were keading members of many before we were in the EU. And finally apparently the only way to deal with EU cartel is from within ignoring that many non member countries do fine and laughably ignoring the almost total lack of influence we seem to have on EU policies many of which are clearly against our national interest. Acceptance of a few of these to win a bigger prize may be acceptable but it seems to me the concessions all go one way

“Six EU commissioners will officially hit the campaign trail later this month as part of their candidacies for May’s European elections.”

Remember how we’ve been told that the Commission is nothing more than the EU’s civil service?

So isn’t this as if six heads of department in the UK’s civil service decided that they’d like to become MPs, and they are even given special leave for their election campaigns, but should they fail to get elected on one party platform or another they can still carry on being supposedly impartial civil servants?

http://www.bigHvan.com Henri Van der Stighelen

After that debate it is time for Nick Clegg to drop the ‘Democrat’ title and revert to just the Liberals. I made this the subject of yesterday’s blog at bigHvan.com before last night’s show. From the off, Nick Clegg looked like a man who was coached into thinking that attack was the best form of defense. Unfortunately, this tactic backfired on him and where he looked like the appeaser in the debate with Cameron and Brown in 2010 this time he looked like the aggressor. But the weakness in his arguments was that old chestnut, democracy – sometimes referred to as the will of the majority. Worth repeating for the benefit of Nick Clegg – the will of the majority. Nick Clegg is besotted by his need to explain how he and his party are the champions of each and every minority group. In his arguments he continuous referred Nigel Farage back to ‘his day’ when women didn’t even have the vote. Nick Clegg doesn’t seem to realise that if you ditch the majority to promote the minority it will end badly, sooner or later. I missed the first 3/4 of the debate and came in with 15 mins to go (although I caught up on iplayer). In that last 15 minutes Nick looked a broken man. There was little confidence in his voice. I am often a sucker for the underdog – but not this time. The Lib Dems have a good kicking coming there way at the polls and this showing did nothing but reinforce that fact. If that was a boxing match, David Dimbleby would have got between them with 5 minutes to go and declare ‘OK, that’s it, Nick’s had enough’. A word to the wise, many people see UKIP as a single agenda party who’s aim is to extricate us from the EU, plus the obvious spin offs such as immigration. UKIP has an extensive manifesto just as broad and far reaching as the other main parties. The only difference is the Tory and LibDem manifestos have proved to be no more reliable than a glossy from a double glazing sales brochure.

Mike

Clegg has probably done a 1st in political history in being the first politician who managed to lie whilst actually telling a lie by telling a lie on a lie. That takes some doing as we’re used to the odd lie from time to time from Westminster but well done Clegg, 10/10 for actually lying about your lies. Your lying legacy wont be surpassed for a very long time.

He lied over that promise about a referendum in the LibDumbs manifesto last week by saying he had a cop out with small print. Now it transpires there wasn’t any small print to begin with.

Best join the banking fraternity Cleggy as they’re more practiced at lying and its only one layer deep unlike yours.

Daidragon

Clegg was terrible. The mock exasperation in his voice was incredibly irritating. Farage has a simple (simplistic even) message but he communicates it very effectively. As a neutral the two debates have been moderately interesting with Farage coming out of them with increased stature and credibility, while Clegg comes out looking a spent political force who will never hit the heights of the Cleggasm ever again.

Michael Mckeown

Clegg’s on a suicide mission for some reason.

the viceroy’s gin

Yes, it does appear that way. His vanity required him to do what he did, but his vanity is suicidal.

colliemum

Shamelessly stolen from another blog, an outstanding cartoon to yesterday’s debate:

“In his closing remarks, Steinmeier noted there is much work to be done, conceding that visions for Europe are projects that will take up the next 20 to 30 years and citing a future European army as an example. He also noted that this century could well see the disappearance of national foreign ministers, that the “German foreign minister” is probably a dying breed.”

Of course Clegg knows this, but the man is an unscrupulous liar.

swatnan

No doubt that Farage had the upper hand, but it was like watching/hearing 2 posh boys having a scrape in the playground over whos got the biggest and biggest conkers. None of this is relevant. The polls are irrelevant,. The Public would vote with their minds, if there is a referendum, to stay in. But these Debates are important leading up to the Big Debate in 2015 which should only be between the 2 Leaders Dave and EdM and no other 3rd or 4th person intruding, because they’ve had their Debates already.

Alexsandr

yes. keep the people with non conforming opinions out -they just get in the way. trouble is the people may think differently and shun liblabcon.

Tony Quintus

Nope, just keep out the people who have no chance of being PM

the viceroy’s gin

Well, that excludes Call Me Dave and the Cleggster, then.

Tony Quintus

If you really think Cameron has no chance of bein g PM post 2015 I think you need to call the men in white coats.

the viceroy’s gin

I’m amused that you do think that.

It’s even money that he’s finished within the year, and his party has no chance at a majority, and you offer up amusements to the contrary.

You should get your money down on it. You’ll get very, very good odds.

Epimenides

I have just watched the debate and Clegg was a disaster. He was so patronising talking to the audience like they were a bunch of morons – ‘I know what is best for you and this is what you will believe.’ Clegg – ‘I am omniscient and you proles are pond life’.
He was gesticulating like one of his beloved windpoles.
Farage was relaxed and coherent and put together his arguments well without giving egregious examples of why he is right.

beenzrgud

Clegg was out of his element, and it showed. Like the rest, he is used to knowing the questions beforehand and then trotting out the usual pre-written spin. Farage on the other hand is clearly a more intelligent man altogether. He learnt a lot from his first debate and refined his technique. He can think on his feet.
I

jazz606

I feared that the BBC would play their usual tricks and skew the debate, but surprisingly they didn’t. Maybe they sense which way the wind is blowing ?

Frank

Yes, I found that very striking, somebody had a word with someone??

Andy

Me too. I was rather amazed. The BBC actually acted out of character. Telemachus will be furious.

an ex-tory voter

It is very simple, “you can fool some of the people some of the time, but you cannot fool all of the people all of the time” a truism which is entirely appropriate to the EU and it’s paid representative Nick Clegg. Jean Monnet would be proud of him.
Sadly for them and happily for the rest of us In the end the lies are revealed for what they and are then trumped by truth.

Nigel Farage did a good job in the debate but the reality is that Nick Clegg was defeated by his own track record of telling lies and obscuring the truth.

colliemum

This is a surprisingly perceptive point, James: “In a sign of how much Ukip have changed politics, it was Clegg who was behaving like the challenger and Farage the incumbent.”
Indeed – but why are you and the rest of the hack pack so cavalier about the fact that Clegg and the LibDems tried to utilise these debates as cheap way of electioneering and getting video clips for their LibDem faithful?
Why are you so reluctant to actually engage with the facts presented by Nigel Farage and by UKIP? Is it too uncomfortable, or are you also getting some money from Brussels to present the EU in the best light possible, just like the BBC?

DavEd CamerBand

Clegg isn’t British and hates the idea of our identity.

Clegg’s single argument is trade. The EU export more to us than anyone in the entire world, as if they would end that, or could afford to given the dire condition they are in.

So much of the pro-EU argument comes down to ‘be afraid, be very afraid’. ‘If we leave the EU,’ we are told, ‘they’ll make rules that we’ll have no input on. If we leave, our trading partners will all dump is in favour of countries in the EU. If we leave the EU, investors in the UK will pull their money out and invest it in socialist France or some other over-regulated basket case.’ But none of these things need to make us afraid.
Living in the shadow of this fear is no way to live. Most of the world isn’t part of the EU, and yet it survives. Most of the Anglo-Saxon world is not part of the EU and yet it survives. A majority of the world’s wealthy countries are not part of the EU and yet they survive. Enough.
Leaving will not be problem free. There will be readjustments to be made. But look forward to the day when we’ll be masters of our own house again.

swatnan

Good effort from Clegg; at least Europe was brought out of the cupboard and aired and discussed. The fact is the majority of people had already made up their minds long ago … to stay in.

Swivel-eyed loon & proud of it

Had they? I don’t believe that.

Wessex Man

It’s OK you don’t have to believe anything swatnan says no one ever does.

jazz606

Even Dimbleby behaved himself.

colliemum

Yes – I had the impression that from halfway through Clegg seriously got up Dimbleby’s nose …

Radford_NG

In the white working class districts which have had a deluge of east-europian immigrants their faces and presence are more *alien* then the likes of Steve Lawrence ever were…..or even Mark Duggan……what ever other issues the indigenous population may have had.Something I am sure is not understood in the Westminster bubble.

Agrippina

Well Cleggy said that the folks in his Sheffield constituency were struggling with the recent influx of eastern euros. The recent arrivals needed to adapt to fit in. So if it suits them the politicians (Blunkett said something similar) they make the right noises, but they are not really concerned about the plight of the working class.

starfish

Clegg’s tactics were poor
He used already discredited statistics
He claimed UKIP were looking backwards, turning back the clock – but Farage skewered him by saying Clegg represents the Establishment and UKIP look forward
The line about Farage being taxpayer funded was hopelessly poor, what does Clegg think he is – self-employed?!
The claims that Farage is some sort of Putin supporting Syrian regime gassing activist was desperately misjudged – deliberate misrepresentation does not go down well
Well done to the BBC even Dimblebore managed to be even-handed – I particularly liked the line about EU bureaucrats. The audience was pretty balanced, the questions well phrased and not too leading. Perhaps there is hope for Question Time….?
Clegg was everything Farage is not – smooth, slick, verbose, economic with the truth
I though Farage overplayed his hand a little with the riots on the streets line when asked how he saw the EU in 10 years
The unanswered question – why after 40 years can the UK public not be trusted to vote on the EU project?
And Milliband came out poorly too

Conway

There has already been unrest in Greece, so perhaps riots in the streets is not such a far-fetched scenario.

Fergus Pickering

There WILL be riots on t he street. And soon. But not on our streets, thank God.

jazz606

Yes, inferring that UKIP supported the gassing of Syrian civilians was despicable and I doubt if The Syrian govt or The Russians had anything to do with that. They are not that stupid.
As Farage pointed out, the British are fed up with being involved in pointless and bloody foreign conflicts. Maybe this is because with IT and the internet we’re beginning to understand what really went on in past wars.

Mike

I’m not sure Farage did overplay his hand as there’s already been riots in the streets of Spain & Greece due primarily to EU dictats over the Euro. I suspect thats why the Eurocrats want a military force within the EU to force their edicts through when things get really nasty as they want to suceed where Germany failed !

Tony Quintus

“A strong Ukip performance in the European Elections would send the Tory party into a frenzy”
No it wont, a UKIP win has been priced in for nearly a year, the fight is for 2nd and 3rd and to see just how badly the Lib Dems get hammered.

Kitty MLB

Agreed, UKIP have always been expected to win
the Euro elections and the Tories are tied within
a coalition with the loathesome EU loving Lib Dems
For a little longer. ITS about how much Labour
and the Lib Dems get hammered as they

Rhoda Klapp8

How delightful to remember that it was Clegg’s fat gob that got him into this..

Lady Magdalene

Farage easily won this week.
Last week’s was a bit more dubious. Farage won on facts; Clegg did better on presentation.
This week Farage easily won on both.

Two Bob

Farage appeared to be enjoying himself. He had a smile whilst Clegg had a screwed up face of frustration….

Lady Magdalene

No sweat on Nigel this week ….. Clegg was visibly wilting.

Fergus Pickering

That appears to be because he had a glass of wine before he went on and not a pint of beer.

Tony Quintus

“Clegg who was behaving like the challenger and Farage the incumbent”
That phrase is everywhere, have you all had the same briefing sheet?

Smithersjones2013

But the consolation for David Cameron from tonight’s debate was how
Clegg seems to be accepting more and more of his renegotiation agenda.
Indeed, Clegg was positively boasting about how the government had
tightened up the benefit rules for EU migrants. It all left me thinking
that Cameron’s pledge of an EU renegotiation is not as much of an
obstacle to a second coalition with Clegg as Westminster thinks that it
is.

Ah yes the Oozlum bird theory. The Oozlum bird being a bird that flies around in ever decreasing circles until it has no choice but to disappear up its own orifice (much like Cameron and his EU policy).

atticus1900

Clegg is yesterday’s politician. He just does not understand that the average informed individual has assimilated lots of news and views from many, many news outlets, and whatever their traditional political views regarding socialism/capitalism/intervention, lots of people are agreeing with Farage, and can see through establishment spin without difficulty.

I am getting the feeling that the British electorate has just woken up and are refusing to be spoken to like children. It is invigorating!

The majority views on every news website I have read (including the Guardian and BBC) agree: Clegg, you are toast.

Labour is so far away from the ideals of Keir Hardie who wrote the following article for the ‘Miner’ in 1887 in which he states the following “For the second time in their history Messrs. Merry and Cunninghame have introduced a number of Russian Poles to Glengarnock Ironworks.

What object they have in doing so is beyond human ken unless it is, as stated
by a speaker at Irvine, to teach men how to live on garlic and oil, or introduce the Black Death, so as to get rid of the surplus labourers.”

Labour do not represent the working class, regardless of Thornberry’ s assertions.

Brimstone52

An excellent assessment of the Labour party by Lord Glasman, Labour: “The Labour party became very progressive. It was committed to very abstract general ends – fairness, rights, justice – and it in many ways viewed working- class voters as an obstacle to progress. And also their commitment to various civil rights, anti-racism, meant that often working-class voters, as in the Gillian Duffy case, were seen as racist, resistant to change, homophobic and generally reactionary. So in many ways you had a terrible situation where a Labour government was hostile to the English working class.”

Agrippina

Thornberry said tonight, that when she meets folks on the doorstep EU is not an issue, the cost of living is apparently. Another one burying her head. Hopefully the working class will wake up and vote for someone who has an interest in them.

Fergus Pickering

What folks? What doorstep?

HookesLaw

UKPR say that polls say he ‘performed better’… in the manner of a seal I suppose.
So not surprising since it was all a (media) circus anyway.
The polls said the last debate did not change opinions. What do the latest ones say?
Would Labour voters go out of their way to praise Clegg? Would Conservatives? Clegg has burnt his boats with the Tories. It seems Farage got 100%b backing from 171 kippers – eat your heart out Kim Jong Un

By all means take this seriously if it makes you happy.

Colonel Mustard

You should join the Labour party. It’s where your heart is.

the viceroy’s gin

…so is Cameron’s.

Andy

I thought he had. He harries like telemachus does.

Kitty MLB

Do is going to defend poor Hooky, both he and Telemachus do
have a equal amount of thrashing to contend with.

Fergus Pickering

I do. It does.

WatTylersGhost

And where was your man Cameron? Mummy said he couldn’t go out to play with the big boys, in case little Dave got hurt.

Wessex Man

What a sad little contriibution from a sad Tory boy whose leader was too cowardly to join the debate, sums why the Tories have lost over half of their membership!

Epimenides

Hey Hooker, you are getting more desperate with every post. Is an apoplectic fit in the offing? Neck another bottle of Buckfast. That’ll do the job.

Kitty MLB

Labour are history Colonel. A serious Conservative relative of mine. Said,
lucky Miliband did not have that debate with Farage and that UKIP
are after the old Labour vote. Telemachus is also very concerned now.
Conservative voters you see, probably will return to the fold.
But working class English Labour voter has not had a party for over a decade.
And New Labour destroyed their lives more then anyone else and they had
no alternative.

Tony Quintus

Exactly, the local elections are going to be an unexpected bloodbath for Labour with 2 years of resentment of politically targeted cuts finally being given an outlet.

Conway

I am not sure that Conservatives will return. The party has left them.

Kitty MLB

The point is One way or another Cameron will be gone at
some point, even if he won the next election, he has said
he doesn’t want to do two full terms.
There are still plenty of traditional Conservatives on the back benches. Regardless of present leader its still the same party, deep down .Whereas Labour have truly Left their working class
background more then a decade ago, northern working
classes say they have no party, but have only voted Labour
because they hate the Tories and had no alternative.

Daidragon

All the polling evidence shows that UKip hit the Tories much harder than Labour. I think you think the ‘working class’ are all shaven headed, racist neanderthals that fit Schaps beer and bingo stereotype.

Kitty MLB

You are being very judgemental. The working class are the decent, traditional, hardworking English people that Labour
betrayed when it decided upon its failed multicultural agenda.
I can assure you, a friend of mine, involved with UKIP
in the North of England says UKIP are thriving.And
thank goodness that they have a party UKIP
the new party for old Labour – Blair/ Brown/ Milipede
never represented their own voters.

Daidragon

I’m sure your UKIP friend really believes what he says but there’s precious little evidence in the polls, bye elections or local elections that UKIP are hurting Labour in their heartlands. They still appeal to traditional Tory types far more than Old Labour types

Wessex Man

oh don’t be silly, just take a look at their reduced percentages in all the by-elections and get that chip off you shoulder, your not a mate of GHooky no Mates are you?

Magnolia

She has been on prime BBC shows at least 3 times during the last 2 weeks.
DP today, QT or AA last week and Westminster Hour last Sunday in addition to regular appearances on Piennar’s politics.
She’s like a rash all over it and as soon as she takes breath I reach for the off button.
Someone (?GF) should do a FOI for details of her constant appearances.
Why is no one else available?
3 mins for Bill Cash at 6-30am on Today this am. which was an event.
Why no Emily alarm at 6-30am?

Colonel Mustard

It concerns me that such an arrogant bully could become Attorney General and I have no doubt that if she does Starmer will slither back into the picture.

Epimenides

She demanded an apologogy from Andrew Neil who, she insisted, had insulted her and he had done this before.
Brillo was simply asking her a question.

Hexhamgeezer

Thornberry – Vicky Pollard in M & S

Conway

One of the reasons we have a cost of living crisis is high taxes, particularly green taxes, thanks to Miliband’s Climate Change Act.

colliemum

She was pretty horrible – but was out-distanced by the Plaid Cymru girlie who wailed that nothing they said applied to Wales. The BBC just showed her wails again, a subtle way of spinning yesterday’s results in retrospect.

Kitty MLB

Clegg was beaten down, the BBC clearly allowed Farage to have the last word.
Clegg appeared the weakest, and the subject being the EU when he is for the
EU was always going to be a loser for him and as for the ghastly wind farms-
No comment.
It seems to have become Farage against the ‘ establishment ‘,
Farage is clearly after the working class old Labour vote, who feel they have
no party and whom excessive immigration has had a detrimental affect the most.
A lot stronger and won the debate with a unpopular leader and a unpopular EU.
I might add Clegg and Miliband do not want a referendum and will not allow one to occur.

Clegg once again was spokesman for the Conservative Party, Dave too frit to engage – pathetic.

RodPolisher

It was Mike Tyson versus Mister Bean. Clogg got smashed all over the shop. And the duplicitous, lying weasel deserved it too.

Jez

I love it when bullies get bullied!

Alexandrovich

There’s a vote on the LBC website re tonights debate. So far:

92.3% Nigel Farage, 7.7% Nick Clegg.

Doggie Roussel

And that’s an understatement !

Kitty MLB

As Clegg is the most unpopular MP in the country and a Lib Dem that
would not be difficult, now would it. You would expect Farage to excel
on his topic and he is not the ‘ establishment ‘ yet ! But clearly
he would like to be in the commons opposite the Conservatives,
his party replacing Labour. Who he’s after by the way, he made that
quite clear with the ‘ peoples army’ comments- those I am not sure
will appeal to middle- class conservatives.

The media and Westminster bubble, just do not understand. We know enough about the EU to make up our minds and it is not to wait for a negotiation that will go nowhere and achieve nothing.

We want an in out referendum. We can trade, with China, Brazil, India, Mexico, Australia, NZ, Canada and anywhere else we want to, as these countries are doing just fine and they are not members of the EU.

Iceland can neg contracts with the rest of the world, so can we, cleggy you fool.

BBC factchecker, 60% of our laws are made in the EU, not 7% cleggy.

http://batman-news.com The Commentator

We didn’t need a pollster to tell us who’d won – wipe out! The BBC journo’s are clearly devastated.

Conway

Can’t wait to read the reaction in tomorrow’s papers – no doubt Clegg will be declared the moral victor and the polls will be wrong again.

colliemum

Dan Hodges in the DT has declared Clegg the winner – by a bit less than last week ….

Fergus Pickering

I have to say (through gritted teeth) that old Dimblebum was much better and fairer than the fat fraud last week.

john king

He had no choice…Too many eyes on him.

lgrundy

Nick Clegg tonight was the embodiment of the expression “I knew he was lying because his lips were moving”.

Jez

The establishment media is in overdrive with anti UKIP spin.

Clegg and his boys got their botties spanked mercilessly by the British general public, via Farage.

ButcombeMan

Just imagine what Farage would have done to Millipede.

Kitty MLB

Indeed, A relative of mine who has never taken much notice of
Farage ( a Conservative) has said Farage is a danger to Labour
and after the working class vote. And I agree.

Fergus Pickering

Oh I do hope so.

Kitty MLB

Indeed, UKIP are doing exceptionally well in the Labour strongholds of the North and with the working classes, who
have felt they no alternative but to vote for Labour.
And that talk of a ‘ peoples army’ will appeal to them and
the likes of McClusky far more the any middle-class Conservative voter.

Rhoda Klapp8

That Clegg is a lying weasel. He had evidently come with a lot of wonkmade soundbites to put in despite them not being true or relevant to the question. He deserved to lose. He also completely fails to make any case for the EU except for the fear of being all alone. Pathetic.

Colonel Mustard

Much of Clegg’s “argument” also played the man rather than the ball. It was ad hominem throughout, attempting to demonise and caricature Farage.

realfish

True. Farage won again but he is no better than the political elite that he is so critical of. Farage, just like Clegg, lies and dissembles through his teeth.

Tonight was truly a third division fixture, the combatants, third division losers who’s corrosive influence far exceeds their democratic credentials and competence.

Lady Magdalene

No Farage didn’t lie. H e doesn’t need to.
Clegg did.

realfish

Through his teeth, as Clegg did.
PS You’ll not be surprised that I wont be joining Farage’s ‘people’s army’ whatever that means

Brimstone52

In which case, you’ll be supporting the status quo, even if you don’t vote.

realfish

No.

Like most people (according to Opinion Polls) I want to see the Government attempt to re-set Britain’s relationship with the EU. Where a relationship is going wrong, to attempt to put it right is the right thing to do. If that relationship cannot be re-set to my satisfaction, I will vote to leave the EU in the 2017 referendum*.

*The only way I will get the chance to have my say is through a majority Tory victory next year. A Labour victory won’t give it to me…a Lib Victory will never happen…a Lib/Lab coalition will not give it to me…a Con coalition contaminated by the evils Libs will not give it me. And as for UKIP, Farage might not even get a single seat.

And before you say, ‘Let’s all vote UKIP’, remember that the EU isn’t the only game in town – they might win in May, but in terms of national politics, UKIP are incapable of continuing the job of digging the Britain out of the massive hole that Labour left, or of running anything else, for that matter.

HookesLaw

far too sane.

Conway

If you think you will get a referendum from Cameron, I fear you will be disappointed. In the first place, he’s unlikely to get a majority, secondly the EU will not renegotiate anything worthwhile and thirdly, it will suddenly become “the wrong time” to hold a referendum if it looks as though the people might vote the wrong way.

realfish

1) He won’t get a majority if enough people throw their votes away – especially to Farage, the Homer Simpson of British politics. In short; no majority – no referendum.

2) Yes it’s possible that the EU will not all the repatriation of our powers. In which case I, and I believe the British people, will vote to leave

3) It would now be impossible for Cameron will deny a referendum.

Conway

A vote for what you believe in is not “thrown away”. I couldn’t possibly hold my nose and vote for something I find repugnant. I was a Conservative once, but the party left me and became something else. Something I no longer wish to be associated with.

Wessex Man

oh dear now your real colours are shinig through, just like Clegg no arguments just insults.

Alexsandr

i’ll vote for the party that best represents my views and interests. why should i vote for one lot of charlatans to keep another lot of charlatans out. Thats madness.

http://www.bigHvan.com Henri Van der Stighelen

You sound rather ambivalent. Rather than ‘it’s possible the EU will not allow repatriation of our powers’ put it more plainly – The EU will definitely not allow this and set a dangerous precedent that will snowball into the break-up of the EU. So, get ready to vote to leave the EU and if you do, you will be doing it for the right reason – except … you will only be enabled to do it because UKIP forced this on to the agenda. I see the stats coming in from the local elections up and down the country and I would urge you not to underestimate the popularity of UKIP, it is far greater than you may think and far greater than much of the media and especially the BBC might like you to believe.

I remember the early days of the common market and it’s laudable aims. Since then we have had 40 years of continual scope creep. In 1914 Germany tried to dominate Europe with the machine gun. In 1939 they tried to dominate Europe with military technology. This time they have adopted politics are their weapon of choice – I am happy to work with them and respect them as equals but be careful! third time lucky?

the viceroy’s gin

This is more a Jacobin urge than Teutonic, isn’t it?

http://www.bigHvan.com Henri Van der Stighelen

Yeh, last paragraph was a light hearted rant – You could also say that when you go down for the third time you don’t get back up – so no conspiracy there. I do pine for the old common market, though complemented by a strong European defense force to add more balance in the world

Colonel Mustard

I don’t think you quite understand what is happening here.

sarah_13

I agree with you about a Tory majority but is it necessary to accuse Nigel of lying. How did Nigel lie exactly?! He is the only one telling the truth! Doesn’t mean I will vote for ukip at the general election but like many people I recognise that without Nigel we wouldn’t even be talking about the EU let alone a referendum, the one the tories are offering because they are scared of Nigel, he deserves a medal for the work he has put in.

Kitty MLB

Nigel Farage has made it quite obvious whose votes he is after. These, Lib/Lab/Con attacks were not going to cut the mustard. You need chose your voters. And regardless
of opinions about leaders, Conservative voters and Labour voters are very different. Farage was reaching out to old-
Labour voters who have beef affected by immigration etc..
and his talk of a ‘ peoples army’ will appeal to them above
all other people.

sarah_13

He made me laugh when he said that, it was like wolfy smith from citizen smith. But there was also something very British about it, very dad’s army, it had the ring of authenticity about it and people relate to that.

Mike

I think today the electorate is a lot more in tune with politics than LibLabCon give them credit for. With internet forums available to everyone that dispel lies from the establishment and politicians, liars like Clegg can’t get away with it anymore.

When Clegg resorts to insults its blatantly obvious he’s lost the debate as has been seen twice now. Repeated insults and attempts at smears just reinforces Farage’s support but the LibDumbs just act out their name in blind stupidity.

Brimstone52

“I want to see the Government attempt to re-set Britain’s relationship with the EU”

But the EU has repeatedly said that renegotiation is not possible. What then?

Why do you think that “UKIP are incapable of continuing the job of digging the Britain out of
the massive hole that Labour left, or of running anything else, for that
matter.”?

They’re all people who have had experience of life, unlike the schoolboys and girls we’ve had running the country for the last forty years or so.

Kitty MLB

Coalitions are generally not the status quo, they clearly do not
work in this country, the Lib Dems have wrecked that for all
smaller parties by their behaviour.

Brimstone52

I think one coalition in recent years, made up of two very similar parties, is not a reliable guide.

We had a coalition during WW2 and in the 1930s. They seemed to do OK.

Kitty MLB

Maybe during WW2 were exceptional times. May I ask
did we not have a national government at those difficult times. Politicians in those days were a different calibre
they all had gravitas and knew how to behave, unlike the
Lib Dems who put party before country always.
They have always seen themselves as the opposition in government.

the viceroy’s gin

A coalition of 2 socialist parties is going to bring on socialism, and that’s what Clegg and Call Me Dave are and do.

HookesLaw

Well a people’s army strikes me as one which will be no different from other peoples ‘people’s armies’.
We can all have ‘people’s armies’
If Farage said that then he is even more crass than I thought.
A ‘peopes army’ brought down the Ukraine govt, but kippers are screaming blue murder over that.

I did not see the debate since like all sane Brits I was down at the pub. How did Chelsea go on?

Wessex Man

Your propanganda is as empty as your leader’s cowardly refusal to join the debate, he and you should really ‘man-up’ and stop lying to the British people.

Epimenides

Hooker likes watching paint dry. It watches soccer. Or it would if it could afford a ticket.

Colonel Mustard

UKIP Spring I expect. The Lib-Lab Con and their media buddies just don’t know how to handle it. Their lies no longer work. “Lord” Finkelstein on Newsnight was pathetic. All they seem able to do is sneer at “populism” as though that is a dirty word.

Kitty MLB

‘ The Peoples Army’ that will appeal to the Labour voters ( who Farage is clearly after)
Rioting on the streets like Spain and Greece-with all their troubles, McClusky will also love that.

Rhoda Klapp8

Chelsea got stuffed too.

Wessex Man

I’m so sad.

gerontius

What lies did he tell?
I didn’t watch the debate so I don’t know.
Please enlighten me

Wessex Man

I think we can manage without you thanks.

Makroon

Well said.
Thank God the whole pointless pantomime is over.

the viceroy’s gin

Au contraire, it’s only beginning. This was the starting gun, and even that mild report appears to have startled you Camerluvvies.

bwims

I smell a rotting real fish

Tom Chance

More importantly, it’s not just demonising and caricaturing Farage, it’s demonising and caricaturing the tens of millions of people in this country who agree with Farage and will vote UKIP in May.

It’ll serve Clegg fine in rallying his supporters, as the EU is more popular than the Lib Dems, but in the long run, you can’t expect support from people you despise.

Makroon

“Tens of millions” eh ? Steady on there old chap !
Clegg, on the contrary, has probably lost even more support – if he can’t even mount a coherent, logical and civilised argument, what is he there for exactly ?

the viceroy’s gin

It’s a 50-50 proposition according to yesterday’s YouGov poll, so yes, “tens of millions” is the proper descriptor, much as you Camerluvvie socialists cringe at it.

Makroon

And I’ve just discovered another common English word that the ever more PC and ridiculous Discus censors don’t like – the correct word for donkey, beginning with an ‘a’.

Wessex Man

Hur hur hur, next we will try and teach you grown up words.

monty61

Agreed, Clegg came across as a smarmy, lying git. Lib Demness personified.

Fergus Pickering

But what other case is there, Rhoda?

Rhoda Klapp8

It’s the case of the thirty-year-old who won’t move out of his parent’s house. Scary world out there. Might have to stand on your own two feet.

Fergus Pickering

It’s the same case, surely.

ryeatley

Let’s hope progress continues.

68% and a touch more thought Mr Farage won. That’s great! I hope it’s translated into votes for UKIP.

By the way, I’m told it’s Mr. Farage’s birthday tomorrow.

I’m going to send him a little present, by way of another donation to the UKIP to keep up the good fight that are conducting for us all.

Lady Magdalene

Mr Farage is Aries. Here’s a brief description:

Aries
March 21 – April 19

Aries is the first sign of the zodiac, and that’s pretty much how those born under this sign see themselves: first. Aries are the leaders of the pack, first in line to get things going. Whether or not everything gets done is another question altogether, for an Aries prefers to initiate rather than to complete. Do you have a project needing a kick-start? Call an Aries, by all means. The leadership displayed by Aries is most impressive, so don’t be surprised if they can rally the troops against seemingly insurmountable odds — they have that kind of personal magnetism.

I certainly think Nigel has given our EU Freedom a kick start.

Alexsandr

His Mum is poorly. I think had an operation. Hope she gets better.

Tom

Farage was much more relaxed this week and self assured, and absolutely battered Clegg who in all honesty is a poor excuse for a politician.

Hello

“It all left me thinking that Cameron’s pledge of an EU renegotiation is not as much of an obstacle to a second coalition with Clegg as Westminster thinks that it is.”

Hardly a consolation when you have Farage hitting 68% in a poll. Can Cameron give Clegg a “right royal rollocking”?

James Strong

Farage has won both debates.
But this is not because of his strong debating performance or any Clegg weakness in this format; it’s because the weight of facts is on his side and he is in tune with the growing realisation in the UK that the EU does not act in act in our interests and as long as we are in it there is nothing we can do about that.So we must get out,.

Hello

To be fair, he’s also outplayed Clegg and the media, who have allowed themselves to become predictable and underestimate Farage.

Two Bob

The media dont realise that the British public are fed up with us projecting power in foreign skirmishes.

Hello

…I think they don’t really understand how much people actually sympathise with Farage’s position on Ukraine, and that the form of their attacks are cementing the idea that this was an EU blunder.

Two Bob

And time and time again I have heard ordinary people at work, at home and at the pub say we should stop policing the world…..

I am only an average bloke from northamptonshire.

Agrippina

You will note that cleggy & dave don’t bother talking about Libya, as it is a complete shambles since dave’s intervention.

Syria is nothing to do with us either, religion of peace folks can deal with matters by themselves.

Lady Magdalene

The proportion of the British electorate which no only understands but is interested in politics is under-estimated by LibLabCON
They assume the electorate is gullible and easily persuaded by spin. In fact, we have the most sophisticated electorate in the world …. failed only that we also have a sizeable tribal Labour vote.

Kitty MLB

The Lib Dems are history, and UKIP
will take Old labour votes, especially in
the North where UKIP are doing well
and excessive immigration issues are
more of an issue. BUT not the Conservative
vote.

Hello

Quite right, Kitty, quite right.

Alexsandr

apart form this shambles of a government, the tories brand is so broken in large parts of the north by historical stuff. UKIP could make big inroads into people in the north betrayed by labour who wont vote tory.

Kitty MLB

You may find that Labour voters in the North are the ones who feel the most betrayal from their party. And have only been voting for Labour because they had no other alternative,
obviously they deplore Conservatives, and also UKIP is thriving in that part of the country. Farage has drawn
a line in the sand and chosen Labour voters.
Don’t worry the Lib Dems will be gone soon, and Labour.
UKIP will be the official opposition in the HOC.

the viceroy’s gin

Yes, UKIP can get to +20% but they’d have to scorn any deal with the Camerloons in order to do it.

Andy

Exactly. If you watched Clegg, when confronted with a fact not to his liking, twisted and frankly lied. In other parts of the ‘debate’, which seemed to me more about Clegg screeching at Farage, he would basically rubbish Britain, as Farage pointed out. When the EU plans for an army navy and airforce were mentioned Clegg rubbished it. When the disaster that is the Euro was mentioned Clegg had nothing to say and no apology was made by him for his constant demand that we join. And that neatly summed up the debate. Clegg was wrong then and we all think he is wrong now.

Two Bob

Farage was brutal. Clegg was belligerent. Farage stepped up several gears tonight. Clegg looked bored with his own arguments. A sign of a spent force.

dado_trunking

Farage wins a *debate*. Or was it a mere discussion.

What do the Scots not give?
That would be a FAQ.

Wessex Man

Who cares what you think you been dominating the airwaves for months and now your not, get used to it!

komment

You are right Wessex Man, thevScttish debate has gone on far too long and people’s boredom is giving way to anger. Why don’t the Scots just shut up and do what they are told for a change, then we can get on with our lives.

Hexhamgeezer

Then give us guys on your border a vote. We will deliver you your Euro (In)dependence.

dado_trunking

You misunderstand – Farage *wins* nothing yet he will be a main contributor to *losing* Scotland.

Michele Keighley

In which case – let’s hope he *wins* very quickly – otherwise I doubt there is any hope of *losing* you at all.

bwims

I’m looking forward to *losing* the Labour MPs that sit like a smelly rump in the HoC voting on English issues, helping crap socialist laws through. Maybe if you’d buggered off years ago, we wouldn’t have needed Farage.

dado_trunking

Magna Carta Socialism of socialising losses and dividing resource profits (shale gas) and subsidies (windfarms) amongst themselves LIVES, with or without those you list.

Wessex Man

I think you’ve on the Whisky a bit early there.

dado_trunking

. . . for that to mean something you would need to consult your daily mail reading alter ego.

the viceroy’s gin

…it’s that annoying socialist muppet copping another nickname again.

the viceroy’s gin

You and the goat will never give up the suckling teat of government, lad, as has been told to you and your countless nicknames in here

the viceroy’s gin

…what about the goat, don’t you care about him?

telemachus

It is thoroughly depressing that a one dimensional demagogue can score so highly in the post debate polls after a performance in which he said nothing that would help the ordinary man in the street
As an example of his distortion of issues he wants to stop wind farms because landowners make a profit
Concluding on energy
Let’s get fracking
Concluding on the EU
It will end unpleasantly
This could be his undoing
*
I am appalled

Wessex Man

Well the fact that you are appalled this early in the day cheers me up no end!

Epimenides

Any chance being ‘appalled’ is fatal?
Why are there so many Marxist clowns on these blogs? Are they so deluded to think readers pay them any attention?

Colonel Mustard

They are harassing every non-leftist blog. One or two patronising, sneering advocates of socialism/marxism running desperately up and down the threads tagging nearly every comment. Because they have to try to control the debate. The resident pest telemachus tags the top comment in any thread that falls within Labour HQ’s “target topics” script. Now that is appalling.

Epimenides

Colonel, keep up the good work. I cannot be bothered replying to them.

Clowns like telemarxist just make folk hate the Marxist scum even more. It is actually a recruiting sergeant for everything it hates.

Kitty MLB

Maybe Nigel Farage can put these dismal lefties back on the
right track when he poaches them from Milipede.

Andy

Well that is what Fascists always do.

John Lea

Ignore him ,he’s a w*nker.

Colonel Mustard

You are appalled? Mind over matter, young telemarxist sonny boy.

We don’t mind and you don’t matter.

http://batman-news.com Whizjet

But Miliband could learn a lot from the Clegg, even a solitary dimension has more substance than Planet Labour.

Kitty MLB

What Farage said will appeal to Old Labour, especially the rebellious
‘peoples army comments’ and there will be trouble on the street.
Almost militant, old Len McClusky will also be pleased.

Colonel Mustard

Looks like UKIP are going to split the Labour vote. The local Labour party people (rural area with few jobs and housing issues) say they are losing members to UKIP hand over fist.

Hexhamgeezer

‘It is thoroughly depressing that a one dimensional demagogue can score so highly’

Hilarious

Mike

At first I thought you were talking about Clegg but sadly you’re just a denier of the truth.

Concluding on energy
Let’s get fracking
Concluding on the EU
It will end unpleasantly

A very fair assessment for which the facts support this both historically and are already in play today.

Like Clegg, your eyes are wide shut and I pity you !

Colonel Mustard

What he wrote is a meme for what Clegg was trying to do. Twist and dissemble your opponent’s arguments in order to sneer at them and belittle them.

Privileged greenocrats in lucrative public and third sector “jobs” have the luxury to oppose fracking. They are not bothered by rising utility bills in their well-insulated, double-glazed, centrally heated homes.

gerontius

As Kitty pointed out in her post above, the Labour Party has betrayed the working class: The class that it was founded to represent.
It’s a pity that you are not appalled by your own dereliction of duty Telemachus.

bwims

Excellent. If you found it depressing, then we are on to a winner!

Frank

I found Clegg’s personal attacks on Farage fairly shocking and surprising as you might assume that Clegg would be able to cruise to victory without resorting to this kind of behaviour. In fact, Clegg seemed to have no game plan other than to attack Farage’s comments on Putin and to keep repeating the empty bromides about England becoming Billy no mates if it left the EU. When Clegg got passionate about the future, he just reminded me of the Hitler youths singing “The future belongs to me” in the film Cabaret. At that point, one recognises Clegg as the leading member of the Vichy party in the UK.

Kitty MLB

This subject was about only the EU & Lib Dem Clegg was always going to lose. Cleggie hating Labour Voters were all fired up clearly.
And I am not a fan of Cleggie by the way.
But Nigel Farage was always going to excel on his subject.

Mike

When lying politicians like Clegg lose the argument, the only thing left is personal attacks & more lies and that’s what we saw last night. I don’t believe Clegg answered a single question or countered a proven fact but slid around like a slimy eel trying to safer ground but failing.

Kitty MLB

Actually they both are on opposite ends of the scales and said
what they both truly felt. Clegg’s side was the losing side because of who he is and the nature of the debate being
about the EU. And Nigel Farage excels on this subject-
UKIP- it is his mission in life. But I think the everyday life
of politics would bore him.

Mike

Everyone accepts that Farage & Clegg are at opposite ends of anti vs pro EU debate but the real difference was Clegg refused to answer direct questions, he constantly changed the subject to avoid answering and lied constantly, that was what turned people off him and rightly so.

I fully accept that all politicians will cherry pick to some degree to back their case but there was a very big difference between them on how they did this. Clegg lied constantly and when he didn’t he changed the subject whilst Farage might have embellished a tad, he answered the questions, thats what set them apart.

Clegg’s general approach to facts highlighting the EUs profligacy and undemocratic process’s was to try and smear Farage by calling him all manner of names from a trivial little Englander to a racist.

Farage’s statement about low income white & black minority groups suffering under mass immigration saw Clegg twisting it and calling him a racist when clearly it had no racial overtones. This was compounded after wards by that brain dead has-been Kate Burley on Sky news when she rudely talked over a UKIP spokesperson who tried 4 times to point out that Farage had actually backed black minorities over the EU’s immigration fiasco.

The media has an agenda here both with Sky News and rags like the Daily Mail where spin is the order of the day despite a 2 – 1 majority in favour of Farage which ever poll or post you look at. In fact, in the DM’s anti Farage smears, there’s a 10-1 post backing Farage for telling it as it is.

Perhaps you’re right that everyday politics might bore Farage but if nothing else he’s exposed the self serving elite establishment for what they truly are. Clegg is a dangerous liar and fraud, Cameron & Miliband are cowards and ALL of them are more interested in their own self serving ends rather than sticking up for the UK. In effect, they’re traitors to the country.

I also agree with Farage that unless countries can devolve from the EU sooner rather than later things will turn nasty and people will get hurt. It is already happening in Greece, Spain and the southern countries but the likes of Clegg are too dumb to see it.

Kitty MLB

Yes, and Farage was right, the white working class have been utterly betrayed by Labour ( their party) they are not
treated like an ‘ underclass’ whilst Labour used excessive
immigration to wreck the foundations of this country and even destroy our education system for the young to give
others coming into the UK a advantage.
I do get that Mike, and I know how disgracefully the media
have always treated Farage. And I know
countries within the EU are sick of something that takes all
their money and doesn’t actually represent them.
Yet the lovely Mr Farage was inflammatory at times,
I am sure no one want’s riots on our streets.

Conway

We’ve already had riots on our streets.

Robertus Maximus

You really should not have been surprised by Clegg’s tactics being, as he is, the current leader of a party which mounted the infamous Bermondsey campaign against Peter Tatchell, one of the lowest points in modern political history – and that takes some doing – and which continues to operate out of the same cesspit.

Wessex Man

Yes you are right, we have felt the tactics of the Lib/dems down here, they really are the nasty party.

DavEd CamerBand

Ad hominem attacks show a lack of any rational argument or belief in what you are arguing. Clegg’s only chance was to paint Farage as a racist and a sexist, he tried and failed as we can all see the irrelevance of these attacks, all it did was show Clegg as a weak irrational individual.

Olympia Winchester

i like your point. then i got to the end and realise you do to clegg what you claim he does to others :/