Posted 2 years ago on Feb. 21, 2013, 10:05 a.m. EST by oldJohn
(-646)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

Let's create a completely transparent community run website for Occupy. Writers will be named and will be asked to participate in the comments that follow their articles. Anybody will be allowed to submit articles, and the whole community will be able to read and vote which ones should go live. The people running the website will be on rotation. The moderators and administrators will be named instead of being hidden. The website rules will be discussed every month, new ideas will be voted on and added. Affinity groups will be directly connected to the website so that what happens on the ground is discussed here. Moderators will have to explain why they banned a certain person, and that person will be able to appeal to the rest of the moderators and the community if he disagrees with the particular moderators decision. The community will then vote whether to keep him or her.

Odin, can you talk to your affinity groups to find out which ones would be interested in having a website that serves as a glue for all Occupy?

It would be for everybody. I wouldn't work on the site since I don't have time. We could use jart's open source code. The affinity groups would use the site. It would connect all Occupiers from around the world. It would be run as a community, no one would be in charge.

Right. I have been watching you carry on arguments with yourself for the past two days. You have the time. Why don't you come clean with how you intend to benefit from this? Why all of a sudden the interest?

You just took a thread that had an opposing view with merit and shit all over it. Why?

Finally a correct statement! There is plenty more to it, like you have not a thing in response to what was said and that makes it accurate. And the same as I have said/or thought of you and that is very little, at best. So you accuse other people of things and make comments which paint a different picture should we not read every comment from every person.

I think you're afraid of a communal website that would be connected to affinity groups because it would become obvious you do nothing for Occupy except bitch on this forum. With a connection to the ground you might be asked to do real substantial acts like helping to make posters or flyers on your computer and that's something you don't want to get involved in.

No, it wouldn't work that way. We must start a new site together with the affinity groups. The site must be started communally, I'm just getting the idea out. It would be against my idea to start a site on my own. Once enough people from the ground and from other websites are into it, then we need to discuss how the site will operate. We discuss this together. I don't believe a site should be started by one person. Occupy is a communal effort and the site should be as well. I don't want to replicate the problem we have on this site, that it's being run by a few people hiding behind the scenes who don't allow the users to make any decisions at all, and who don't even engage the users. I want a site where the users run the show, together, all of us.

Not at all Odin. Everyone would have a communal control of the website. If people don't want me around they could vote to ban me. There would be moderators on the site at all times since we could add more if needed. That means a person who comes back could be banned quite quickly. The way it's now, we can't get more moderators because they don't accept new people for the job. The same problem exists for programming, the last code update was 5 months ago.

If you took your head out of your donkey butt and listened for a moment you would realize I'm absolutely 100% right. It's not for me, it's for Occupy.

The way it is now I can do whatever I want on this site because they don't work on plugin security holes (no more coding), and they don't have enough moderators. And, really, I don't troll like you think I do. Most users you think are me are not me at all.

Anyone who is constantly criticizng this movement from "day 1", your words, I am strongly suspect of

When you took my rather benign criticism of OWS, and blew it up in a negative way your with your, OWS degenerating (or something) into "tiny fragments" statement, that sent out blaring alarms out to me as to your motives

When you say that these affinity groups don't talk to each other, either you are lying, or you have no idea what your are talking about

What do you think InterOccupy does??

And when my cell and LT fill up with email exchanges from morning to late night on the days before an Occupy Town Square event, where do you think those emails were coming from?? Congressmen??..lol....lol

There were over a hundred different grass-roots groups who co-sponsored the Climate Day Rally in Washington last Sunday,

Just on my bus which was co-sponsored by Food and Water Watch of NJ ( a Catholic religious environmental group), and Greenpeace, there were also Sierra Club, and 350.org members that I knew of on it

Do you really not think that all these people both in and out of Occupy are not talking to each other as you have asserted?? Really...lol!

Can you understand that I can put faces on the people that you are constantly criticizing, including one spectacular young lady (whom i only met recently) from this web site, and whom I only had a chance to talk to briefly. I did have time to compliment her saying that she was a "woman of substance," which she appreciated very much.

I have known these mostly young people to work or go to school all day, and then go to OWS or OTS meetings at night, sometimes even on cold nights in parks

So if i seem defensive against your constant blatantly unfair...divisive, wrongheaded attacks on the people that sacrifice so much time and energy for this movement, it is because 'LOYALTY' is not just a word for me

Anyone who is constantly criticizng this movement from "day 1", your words, I am strongly suspect of

Logical fallacy: appeal to motive. Comment on the ideas, not the proposer. My ideas are clear and precise, they can live without me.

There is no Internet forum that serves as a hub where all the affinity groups discuss ideas amongst themselves and exchange with regular users like me and others who can't make it in person to the affinity groups. Am I wrong? If so, please give a link to such a forum.

I have never attacked the people who work at affinity groups. This is your fantasy. I salute them for doing a great job. My only point was that we should have a forum that serves as a hub for all the affinity groups and everyone else. I'm not sure where you came up with your delusions.

We on the forum could start our own initiatives, and we should do our best to link to the streets, like bail money, resources, food, ideas, etc., but expecting to have a say in what they do, or how they do it, no

Yes, I would like for us to be linked to the administration on the forum more closely

You have to realize though that most of these people are really busy, working or going to school as well as doing this

So rather than criticizing, and running them into the dirt all the time, you should be supporting them/ more

We on the forum could start our own initiatives, and we should do our best to link to the streets, like bail money, resources, food, ideas, etc., but expecting to have a say in what they do, or how they do it, no

We don't need a direct say on what particular affinity groups do. They can decide for themselves. What we could have is a way to discuss issues with them, a way for all affinity groups and Internet Occupiers to discuss and share ideas. This is important and will help us grow. After than, the people in an affinity group can meet up face-to-face amongst themselves and make their own decisions. It's obvious that people engaged in a particular event or action should have control over what they are doing!

The idea is to share thoughts. To make is so that the great ideas discussed here aren't limited to sleeping on this site's database. By encouraging better discussion and sharing of ideas, we can grow faster.

So rather than criticizing, and running them into the dirt all the time, you should be supporting them/ more

I never criticized the people running affinity groups. This is your deluded fantasy.

You fail to realize that Occupy's goal is to create a global revolution, not only local changes. Occupy wants to create a better world for all of us. We can't limit ourselves to face-to-face meetings if that is to happen. We live in the age of the Internet, the age of social media. Many people are too busy to attend meetings, some cannot because of sickness, others are away on trips, etc... The Internet is the perfect tool to bridge Occupy affinity groups with users throughout the world. It's the glue that can make Occupy really come together and grow exponentially. Such a tool, a community run forum, will be key in the new world Occupy wants to create.

Don't bash unity, don't bash progress, embrace good ideas, inevitable ideas, a community run forum is the future of Occupy.

Once again this is a wonderful place to learn, but I would not wish any of the people that I know in these affinity groups to have to sort through all the crap on here....., u case in point!

A community forum would be different than this one. This is not the only model of a forum that exists. The reason we need another one is because we don't want people to "have to sort through all the crap on here" like you say. A correctly moderated forum where good ideas would bubble to the top would be a great way for Internet users to provide more ideas to affinity groups. The more good ideas we have, the better.

When for good reason, your constant criticism of OWS, I could never take you seriously or believe that you are working for the betterment of our struggle

Appeal to motive. Learn to judge ideas for their own merit. Forget your fantasies about the proposer.

BTW I never said you criticized affinity groups solely

I never criticized affinity groups at all. I don't know how you fabricated that delusion. I only criticized this website.

but there is very little gap between people who are in AG's or just OWS, you know, or maybe you don't.....UNITY,

I'm not saying there is no unity within affinity groups. I'm saying there is no unity between affinity groups and Internet users which can't make it there in person. My idea of a communal website is to create more unity, not less. I want to unify occupiers who can only communicate through the Internet with people on the ground (in affinity groups). This is the way to make the protest grow exponentially.

There's a big problem when, in 2013, people who want to support Occupy through the use of the Internet cannot communicate with the people on the ground on a nicely built website that serves as a bridge for that purpose.

You need to get with the times old man. We won't make a huge revolution if we can't all communicate with each other on the Internet. The tools exist. We can make it happen. If the ideas here had an impact in the real world, I'm sure people would stick to the subject at hand. Imagine if the ideas of a user here could help or otherwise impact decisions made on the ground. People would care about this website a whole lot more. As it is now, everything that is discussed here is lost in some sector of this site's database. Nothing is transformed into practice. That's a problem.

One more time, a communal forum would be more susceptiple to being hijacked because as we both know everyone here is not here for good reasons

You provide no argument for this claim. I have already shown why this is a flawed idea. The opposite would be true. There would be more moderators and programmers who could work on the site.

In my other posting "Control the Troll - Here's How", I give very basic programming ideas to stop sock puppets. This is something that could be implemented in 2 days time. Unfortunately, because this site is not run by a community this can't be done. With a community run website, we could find new programmers when need be. Nobody would control the show. It would be a team effort, like Occupy is supposed to be.

I'll place my trust with the radicals who are running this site.....you know the ones who have awakened us all

You never heard of anti-capitalism before they came along? You mean the ones that constantly ban you?

There are plenty affinity groups you could join, but you may be faced with the uncomfortable prospect of having to sweat, shiver, or having to look them in the eyes

As I told you before, I am part of an Occupy affinity group.

The UNITY that I purvey, and the legitimate wariness of your probable ulterior motives is what we have, and will continue to need in OUR (?) monumental struggle

Logical fallacy: appeal to motive. Judge the ideas by their own merit, don't worry about the perceived ulterior motives you think the proposer might have.

When you constantly attack my Occupy brother/sister in non-constructive ways

I didn't attack anyone personally. I gave criticism about this website. We can't criticize flaws in Occupy's setup? Is this a cult?

And, by the way, your Occupy sisters and brothers keep banning you from this site. That's why you're not using the Odin name anymore. You might want to re-evaluate who are your brothers and sisters.

[-] 1 points by oldJohn (-198) 3 minutes ago
I didn't keep track. Just ask jart. I don't even know the sock puppets I used. I don't care about those things. I only focus on ideas. Getting obsessed with the proposer is a logical fallacy and will get you nowhere. It's a waste of time.
↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink

Logical fallacy is what you use when you are deflecting from your actions. It's the number one reason that you are a douche bag.

[-] 1 points by oldJohn (-198) 0 minutes ago
He has 30+. He keeps getting banned when the moderators are around. Like me. I didn't keep track of all his usernames. You can ask jart if you really care, or just ask Odin.
↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink

I'm asking you. You are the one that could easily have your own brand name in footwear if we could find just one name to attach to you. You're a pro. Who better to ask?

I didn't keep track. Just ask jart. I don't even know the sock puppets I used. I don't care about those things. I only focus on ideas. Getting obsessed with the proposer is a logical fallacy and will get you nowhere. It's a waste of time.

oldjohn you sound like a super control freak. Paranoid too. Moderators 24/7. Banning anyone that says BOO ! WTF?
If you want to be some OVERLORD, control freak, gestapo dictator, just go and start you weird, overbearing, controlled website. Leave the people here alone!
Have fun "Moderating" and "Banning" everyone else until it's just you left, twinkling yourself.

Not banning anyone that says "boo". There would be rules to follow which would be created by the community of users. No one would be the overlord, it would be run by the community. There would be rotation in the programmers and moderators, unlike now. Hell, the community could decide that bans won't exist at all. This would all be decided together.

Currently it is being run by overlords. You don't know how many and who the moderators are. The code hasn't been updated in 5 months. When people get banned no reason is given to them.

I've been reading this forum since day one. Before all the Mega twinkled point users ever showed up. I've had many user names "banned". There is a clique of people here who just because they have a zillion twinkle points, like to play rough. They want to "teach" the "new" posters who's boss(new posters who've actually been here before any of them, but have to start a dozen new user names because of banning.) They play rough and and act like dicks and I slam these prima donna's back. Banned ! DKA, Shooz, VQ, etc. The usual suspects. I never come here to read anything these losers write. It always sucks. Anything I see with their name on it, I fly right past it. It's garbage.

I'm only looking for the good authors. Middleaged, elf3, gnomoney, shadz66, jrhirsh, OTP, Nevada1, Renneye, builder, engineer4, etc. and post my own articles.
Then I post an article and wham, all the losers that live on here start coming out to "teach lessons" to the "new guy" with only 10 points and start wising off. I give some back to them (usually not even as hard as they gave it to me) and bam. Banned again. New username.
Girl Friday can curse like a drunken sailor all day long at people and nothing ever happens to her(probably a him) WTF?. I say Boo to shooz and he goes crying to DKA and I'm banned, comments "Deleted", "Removed", and of course they keep on being able to say much worse, without ever getting banned. Cronyism. A microcosm of what we're fighting against.
Dissent must be allowed. Otherwise you may as well just start a club.

(quote BIGBRUISER)Dissent must be allowed. Otherwise you may as well just start a club.(unquote)

I agree with this. I've been here from the start myself, and I understand where you're coming from. I come here less and less these days. Groups like 99Rise have working troops on the ground. I'm aware of the great effort from #ows getting thousands of meals out to hurricane Sandy victims. Great effort.

Yes, I agree. There shouldn't even be points. The posters you talk about are old men. They have no life. They are addicted to the forum. And yes, they have nothing of worth to say. They just attack new comers.

I absolutely agree dissent must be allowed. If you've been here since the beginning you know that.

Can you give an example where I talk to myself? I'm not sure what you are referring too. And, I barely use the forum anymore. People talk about all kinds of stuff here, I don't have the power to control what people want to discuss.

Right now I'm only using oldJohn, when I am banned and come back I'll let you know who my new character is. I'm trying to keep characters that start with "old" to help you recognize me. The previous ones were oldJim and oldJack. After oldJohn, I'll use oldJane, oldJeremy, etc... It should be easy for you to know who I am.

If you are not certain, you can always ask jart to run IP checks. She can verify what I say. There's no need for you to guess.

You did ask the names of my previous puppets in your last comment, and I did give you the names of my past puppets two comments ago. If English is not your mother tongue, I'll be happy to try to communicate in a language that you more readily comprehend.

Lies, do not equate to truth, no matter how many times you claim it does.

I don't disagree with everything you've said in your current "iteration", it's the lies that have followed that have created the issue and taken credence away from those things and made them feel disingenuous..

When do you believe you actually did that?
Lies, do not equate to truth, no matter how many times you claim it does.
I don't disagree with everything you've said in your current "iteration", it's the lies that have followed that have created the issue and taken credence away from those things and made them feel disingenuous..

Learn fact checking. Then, when someone shares an idea you can check the facts it rests upon by yourself. This way you'll be judging ideas on their own merit instead of falling into the logical fallacy of judging the proposer instead.

Not with someone as dishonest as you.
why would I? (share my interesting ideas)

Sharing good ideas is a positive gesture. Planted seeds can grow in many directions. People can read the ideas you share with me, and I can share them with others. Why keep them inside your head like you keep dead butterflies underneath a glass container? Give your ideas freedom, share them! That's what we're here for.

I guess you forget what you just said then, as if your insults about my understanding of English weren't enough for you.
Here's the quote.
"It's time to move on old man."
Short term memory issues then?

I'm old like you, but my memory is quite good.

That's not an insult. You're an old man, just like me, and it's time for you to move on. You keep repeating yourself week after week. There's nothing wrong with being old, and, honestly, I don't know why you are implying there is.

Nothing older than about a month ago with the names given, so you are pretty magical.
Why don't you just be nice and transparent and let us know the names you used.........oh........around a year ago?
I will be honest with you and tell you that shooz is the ONLY name I've posted under.
I've never used a bot, nor a puppet.

I don't care about bots or puppets. I care about ideas. That's all that matters. You never used a bot nor a puppet, but you also never contributed ideas that had impact. You go unnoticed around here because you have very little to say as this thread clearly demonstrates.

It's time to move on old man. There's no reason to stay stuck in the past like a broken record.

If English is the problem, ask a friend for a translation. I didn't insult you. I'm just trying to help. You keep asking a question I already answered. I assume it's because you don't understand my writing. There's nothing wrong with that. Not everybody speaks English as a mother tongue.

There's no obfuscation, you asked a question and I answered it. Then you asked it again twice as if I hadn't answered it. The only problem in this thread is English comprehension. That's why I offered to write in your mother tongue.

The code for this website is on github. Anybody can use it to create another forum. It's open-source for that reason. We could fork it and keep improving it. Jart isn't working on it anymore. The last update was 5 months ago.

A forum made by one person would just end up like this one. I'm interested in a community create forum which responds to the whole community of Occupy. A forum that bridges the gap between the Internet and the ground. The project code-name is Bridge To The Ground.

Then make your own forum and invite new members as full equals with full access. But you won't because you have no intention of doing something that would remove your presence from this site. Besides - you are too much of a control freak to make an open ( wild west dysfunctional ) forum like that.

I'm not interested in building a forum on my own. What we need is a forum planned by the community, made by the community, run by the community, and used by the community. Just like Occupy started, with a meeting on September 17th, 2011. There, people planned what would happen next. We need to do that for the new forum.

And there it is - AGAIN - and - in PERPETUITY. You won't do what you suggest others do. You know that you could not start and run a fully open and equal forum - it would be your happy place by what you keep saying (today) but you won't do it - because you could not.

You know that you could not start and run a fully open and equal forum - it would be your happy place by what you keep saying (today) but you won't do it - because you could not.

You're right. I could not. I have explained this already. No one could. A community forum cannot be made by one person, or by a small clique. It must be planned by the community, made by the community, run by the community, and used by the community. That's the whole point of a community-based forum.

That's what I'm doing! I'm gathering the community by expressing ideas. Isn't that what this forum is for? I already have a few users who are interested. If you're not, that's fine. You don't have to bump this thread. You can ignore it. You have the power to do that.

Go visit other sites and invite people to join you in your grand creation - but leave here.

Dude, you're on my posting. I'm not invading your territory, you're invading mine. Do you think you're the high priest on this website?

Go open your community forum - I promise I will not go there. In the meantime this is a public forum - open to supporters of Occupy. So when you post here ( not in your "YOUR" community forum ) you have to deal with what you get - and be satisfied - like I said - like many have told you - over and over and over again - don't like it here? No Problem - LEAVE.

It's a public forum. Why are you asking me to leave? Are you the chief head priest who decides who this forum is public to? I think you should be banned. You act like a know-it-all troll. This you create this place? You sure act like you did.

[-] 1 points by engineer4 (367) 0 minutes ago
GF. You have your shorts in a twist. So, simple question: do you believe that this site needs some modifications / improvements to make it better? If yes, what would you suggest?
↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink

What do you mean by " socks"? I was responding to you getting somewhat out of sorts and getting nowhere. Then I asked a simple question about the topic and what is being discussed. Is there some difficulty with my question.

Where? And that is it? Socks is your answer? That is a complaint, not a solution. So again, what would you do or suggest to improve this site ? Do you agree or disagree with the proposed or other ideas suggested?

I have responded to that. You're making the claim that you could be stopped if only they would..........because you're a douche bag and cannot monitor your own behavior. It really, really is everyone else's fault that your a douche bag.

That thread is not about that. It's about how a community run forum can run much better than one that's not. I don't use sock puppets nowadays. That's your imagination. You think everyone is me. Shadz66 has the same problem. You're both into delusions, probably because you love conspiracy theories.

You think I'm using sock puppets. You don't bother to verify with jart. You're simply deluded. You think half the users here are me. You think I have ulterior motives. That's conspiracy theory type thinking, it's not serious journalism based on fact checking. You just like to make things up because it's easier that way. Checking takes a bit of effort.

We could get more moderators and programmers. Moderators who are active on the site would recognize banned users instantly and could re-ban them right away. Also, we could make the signup process much longer and arduous. For example, a user could be limited to one post a day for the first two weeks after which he could post at will. This would make it a pain for a banned user to come back and he would eventually get bored.

I do agree with the voting problems, but maybe a vote could be allowed as long as you add comment / response with it. Maybe place votes at top of the post so one could see the total pro / con, rather than individual. That way one could easily see how everyone is feeling about a particular post. The rules should be to make sure people stay on post topic and not wander to far away from it.

What's your take on user karma points. I don't think there should be any because I think comments should be judged on their own merits. Actually, it would be great if usernames did not even appear so that we would not know who wrote what. That would force us to read the comment and judge it for what it is. Too many judging the proposer around here.

I do not like the karma point system. It has been abused, especially by the ones with the large numbers. Not sure about total anonymity. Good moderators (on rotation) could comment back to the source to stay on topic and warn off personal attacks. I do agree that the proposer may get mauled soley on ID. Maybe the topic post should not have an originator ID, so then could be freely commented on without prejudice. Or, the originator comes out after a set number of responses. As an experiment, maybe ask jart for a test.

You are talking revolution? Abolishing of capitalism? One world community - under whose leadership? Take out the moderators and mediators and let the fur fly! You will have to face the uneducated, retrogressive masses eventually.

Everyone would be included in making decisions for the website. That should be easy enough since it's not political in nature. As for events, we vote and those who find themselves in the minority can either go, create their own event, or not go. There's no need for consensus at every turn. That's not the goal. We can vote on issues.

All inclusive doesn't mean we all agree, it means we all participate. The way the site is now nobody participates in how it's run. We can change that and connect it to the ground.

See what happens, T. Even when you have a valid idea like this one, no one wants to listen to you because your 'rep.' It also shows that far too many people on this site aren't really interested in connecting this site with OWS. They just come here to 'shoot the shit' and massage each others egos. They have no intention of actually doing a fucking thing. Sad, really.

That's not my point at all. I don't think it's his intention to have a website he can control. Despite what the forum thinks of the man, he has come up with some valid ideas. I just happen to think this is one of them. This forum has obvious flaws and it's damn near impossible to get any feedback from the admins. Too many people close their minds to ideas that come from someone they don't like/trust. It's human nature, I guess.

How would I know what his intentions are? I've never met the man. What I'm saying is I agree this forum has problems. That I think it could use some improvements. I'm not the only one here that have often wondered what the true intentions of this site really are. In fact, I've thought a new, improved website was a good idea long before Thrashy made this post. Months ago, in fact.

Right. I believe that there were multiple attempts, months ago, for new forums that believed the same.
A man with multiple IDs that spends an inordinate amount of time arguing with himself and there isn't even a question as to what those intentions might be?

But, you are 100% sure of what other people's motives are:

[-] 0 points by gnomunny (4334) from St Louis, MO 1 hour ago
See what happens, T. Even when you have a valid idea like this one, no one wants to listen to you because your 'rep.' It also shows that far too many people on this site aren't really interested in connecting this site with OWS. They just come here to 'shoot the shit' and massage each others egos. They have no intention of actually doing a fucking thing. Sad, really.
↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink

So you think that's the only problem with this website? Multiple ID's? That's it? And you are slipping if you used my quote to assume I knew 100% what his motives are, since there's nothing in it that would suggest that.

The problem of multiple IDs could be curbed with my solution. Because the site would be run communally, people could volunteer for the job of moderation and we could get enough people to work 24/7. The way it's now, we don't even know how many moderators there are. And, we certainly can't ask for more. We have no control over that.

Occupy should be a communal effort and it should start on this website. It's sad you don't understand that.

No, who said that? Stop with your rhetorical clap trap and say what you want to say. I'm open to an honest discussion that's made up of arguments, and not solely based on attacks. Are you capable of that? If not, that's fine, but I think we would both gain a lot more from a honest well founded discussion.

I think you need to read it again. In fact, don't bother because you're reading into it what you want to read into it. Better still, if you don't want to sound full of shit, show me where in the OP it suggests some hidden motive. Quote that instead. You can't. Because you're judging the post by who posted it, not by the content. Which is exactly what most people do on here. Which is one of the forum's flaws I speak of.

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (4334) from St Louis, MO 1 minute ago
I think you need to read it again. In fact, don't bother because you're reading into it what you want to read into it. Better still, if you don't want to sound full of shit, show me where in the OP it suggests some hidden motive. Quote that instead. You can't. Because you're judging the post by who posted it, not by the content. Which is exactly what most people do on here. Which is one of the forum's flaws I speak of.
↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink

And you would have gotten away with it too---if it hadn't been for those pesky kids.

What in the sam hell is that supposed to mean? What fucking kids are you talking about? And I noticed you edited your comment. And didn't point out a hidden agenda in the OP. Look GF, the only reason you're riding my ass is because I gave props to the bane of the forum. I see you've joined the twinkle team, by the way. I'd thought better of you.

jart's name is Justine. The initials supposedly stand for "just another radical . . . something." I don't remember what the 't' stands for but it might be transgender. A lot of us are familiar with her, at least to the extent of her limited appearances on some of the discussions. So, we don't really know how true any of it is. But I doubt it's the same Jart that's in your link.

And oldJohn has actually been here since October 2011. He was originally Thrasymaque. And the anonymous from your link is just a username. A lot of people on the net use that. Don't assume it automatically means the group Anonymous, which, as you know, is a very large group of people.

[-] 2 points by gnomunny (4334) from St Louis, MO 6 minutes ago
What in the sam hell is that supposed to mean? What fucking kids are you talking about? And I noticed you edited your comment. And didn't point out a hidden agenda in the OP. Look GF, the only reason you're riding my ass is because I gave props to the bane of the forum. I see you've joined the twinkle team, by the way. I'd thought better of you.
↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink

I sure didn't. Nice try though. I'm not involved in any twinkle team.

I don't need to point out an agenda with the OP. The multiple IDs and arguing with himself says it all. So does your attempt to minimize.

Give it up GF. It's pretty hollow. Besides, why would you keep bumping his thread just to give me shit? I'm not minimizing anything. I said I thought an improved website was a good idea and you had a coniption shit because I had the audacity to agree with Thrashy. Move the fuck on. But if you want to keep it up, I'll keep bumping the thread. No prob.

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (4342) from St Louis, MO 0 minutes ago
Your copy-pasting doesn't make your point any clearer. You haven't made a valid point at all, in fact. Point out the error in my comment that the forum could use some improvement. Point out the comment in the OP that suggests a hidden agenda. Do either one of those and I'll concede. Otherwise, you're just talking shit, trying to get the last word in. But hey, I'll follow you down to the bottom till we run out of reply buttons. Besides, I'm getting a kick out of watching you lose your shit over something so stupid.
Your turn.
↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink
________-
Oh, I am not losing my shit. I'm enjoying watching you squirm.

The OP is suspect. Maybe he does have a hidden agenda, I just didn't get that impression, since I agree with the concept of an improved forum. Maybe I'm being naive. But maybe, just maybe, he has a point. Either way, there's no point in continuing to bump the thread. But if you insist on getting the last word in, go ahead. I'm cool with it.

Thras makes lots of points and then he turns around and jacks that up.

See, here is the deal. On the one hand we are reading material and impacted personally with lies and deception and cons by banksters, multinational corporations and government. To turn around and justify lies, deception and cons used by people with multiple IDs makes the entire forum a farce. The expectation that I, or anyone else, should look at this as some sort of enlightened concept and independent of the individual is asking to divorce oneself from reality.

I want to find something good in Thras. I really do. That individual either firmly believes in his cause and that this is a just course of action or he is the second biggest sociopath I have ever encountered in my life and is being paid well for this. Either way a little bit of integrity wouldn't leave his ideas in question.

[-] 0 points by gnomunny (4334) from St Louis, MO 2 minutes ago
Give it up GF. It's pretty hollow. Besides, why would you keep bumping his thread just to give me shit? I'm not minimizing anything. I said I thought an improved website was a good idea and you had a coniption shit because I had the audacity to agree with Thrashy. Move the fuck on. But if you want to keep it up, I'll keep bumping the thread. No prob.
↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink

I don't know about you GF. Sometimes you put some of the best shit on here, and at other times act like a complete baby. Kind of like now. Hey, here's an idea: why not throw up one of those lame-assed 'troll' clips you've grown so fond of?

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (4342) from St Louis, MO 0 minutes ago
I don't know about you GF. Sometimes you put some of the best shit on here, and at other times act like a complete baby. Kind of like now. Hey, here's an idea: why not throw up one of those lame-assed 'troll' clips you've grown so fond of?
↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink

I don't give a fuck what you think about me. You wouldn't spend so much time trying to spin shit if I was wrong. Here is an idea: Pull your head out of your ass.

Been waitin' for ya. What took you so long? Ten minutes and that's the best you can do? Here's the deal. I've been critical of this forum for over a year. Thought it needed much improvement. So technically, Thrashy's agreeing with me, not the other way around. Change your perspective any? No? Whose head's up whose ass?

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (13611) 2 hours ago
Right. I believe that there were multiple attempts, months ago, for new forums that believed the same. A man with multiple IDs that spends an inordinate amount of time arguing with himself and there isn't even a question as to what those intentions might be?

But, you are 100% sure of what other people's motives are:

[-] 0 points by gnomunny (4334) from St Louis, MO 1 hour ago See what happens, T. Even when you have a valid idea like this one, no one wants to listen to you because your 'rep.' It also shows that far too many people on this site aren't really interested in connecting this site with OWS. They just come here to 'shoot the shit' and massage each others egos. They have no intention of actually doing a fucking thing. Sad, really. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink
↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply edit delete permalink

Your copy-pasting doesn't make your point any clearer. You haven't made a valid point at all, in fact. Point out the error in my comment that the forum could use some improvement. Point out the comment in the OP that suggests a hidden agenda. Do either one of those and I'll concede. Otherwise, you're just talking shit, trying to get the last word in. But hey, I'll follow you down to the bottom till we run out of reply buttons. Besides, I'm getting a kick out of watching you lose your shit over something so stupid.

The intention for transparency is simple. We should know who writes the articles for OWS. Is it always the same person, are there many people involved? Do they have a stronghold on news created by and for OWS? Can others participate? Why don't they contribute in the comments to their own posts? If Occupy is a community effort, why can't we know any details of how our donations are spent for the site, know that kinds of hits the site gets, have a chance for new people to moderate or program for the forum, etc...

There's no reason that people organize Occupy events or websites hide from the other occupiers unless it's because they want to remain in full control. Occupy should be controlled by the community. Period.

Why don't you write to the moderators or jart to share those ideas? You could get rid of me that way.

Of course, if this were a community run website the implementation of such code would be a breeze. We could have many people working on upgrading and moderating the site. We wouldn't be limited to 4 people.

I don't have any socks. I only use oldJohn. You can confirm this with jart.

You think I use socks, I think you're the resident bitch. So what?

What matters are ideas. That, I bring to the table. You don't bring any. You just insult people you don't agree with in a bitchy fashion. It's like you're permanently on the rag. I feel like writing a short story - "Forever Bleeding"

I don't mind insulting someone who trolls me. She started. She insults everyone around here. And, it really does seem like she's permanently in the red.

You're both trolling me today. Not the other way around. I'm bring ideas and arguments to the table. You guys bring nothing but lame rhetorical questions and insults. I guess you can't squeeze good ideas from little minds.

Ya, it's really sad. I don't care about my rep. It serves me well actually. I can see you is able to look at arguments instead of the proposer. Only ideas matter to me. You're right, people only come here to "shoot the shit'. I thought Odin had potential, but he's all caught up in playing games of insults and using logical fallacies. Too bad. His connections on the ground could have helped.

Odin does have potential. He does far more than almost anyone on here. Hell, he may be the only one doing anything. It's your reputation, T. You might not care, or think it serves you well, but the fact is, because of it, no one here is going to listen to you.

Personally, an new 'official' OWS website is exactly what's needed. This website is good for learning new things, which is why I come here, but that's about it. So, it does serve one good purpose.

They think you have ulterior motives. You can't blame them in a way, you have gone too far at times. But like I pointed out earlier, if you wanted to get a bunch of your buddies and control a website, which is what they suspect, you could just do it here. You wouldn't need a new website to do that.

At any rate, I still think improvements to this site, or a whole new website, is a valid idea. And I believe in giving credit where credit is due. I've pointed out on more than one occasion that your suggestion that the early OWS posters were too militant was right on the money.

This is to be expected. American society is built upon the shoulders of fear and conspiracy theories. That's the bread and butter of American thought process. It would be nice to discuss the idea and ponder on arguments for and against it, but it takes very strong minds to get passed the proposer and focus only on the idea(s). That's how my reputation helps me. I can easily differentiate between those who concentrate on the proposer (a logical fallacy), and those who can concentrate on the idea(s). This way I don't waste my time. I'm have very interesting discussions in private messages with some users who are able to look passed the proposer. They are few on this website. Congratulations for being one.

A communally run website would make it harder for anybody to troll, not easier. We could have as many moderators as we see fit instead of having no say in the matter. The site could be monitored 24/7. Also, we could find programmers to elevate the site's security which isn't very high at all. The last update to the site's code was 5 months ago. Jart and the moderators don't have time to take care of the site, but they also don't want to give us the power to do so. This anti-communal behavior on their part is very anti-Occupy.

I suspect GirlFriday and others are afraid of a site that would be directly connected to affinity groups and that would be run communally. This type of setup would make it obvious they don't want to contribute in a practical way to help Occupy. Affinity members could for example ask them for help in making posters, advertising on Twitter/Facebook/etc..., or anything else that could be done from a computer. They don't want to spend time doing that. They want a site where they can come and pretend to by part of Occupy. They just want a place to bitch. That's all.

GirlFriday is afraid of the power I would have on a communal run website, but I have so much power on this site as it stands. I don't use robots now, and haven't for over a year, but I could if I wanted to. Also, anything I say will be dismissed, so if I wanted to stop progress on this site I would simply have to agree with every good idea for it to be dropped. It's very ironic.

Honestly, it's quite bewildering. It should be obvious to anyone that a site run by the community would give me less power. It would give less power to anybody. The power would reside with the community.

Some people are unable to see good ideas when they are shadowed by their preconceptions of the proposer. This is a sign of a weak mind. Strong minds can differentiate between good and bad ideas no matter who proposed them. Even though they think I might have ulterior motives, my idea is clear and precise and it should be easy to analyze it for what it is and realize all the implications it will have.

We need to find out where the intellectuals of Occupy hang out. It certainly isn't here.

No, it wouldn't work that way. We must start a new site together with the affinity groups. The site must be started communally, I'm just getting the idea out. It would be against my idea to start a site on my own. Once enough people from the ground and from other websites are into it, then we need to discuss how the site will operate. We discuss this together. I don't believe a site should be started by one person. Occupy is a communal effort and the site should be as well. I don't want to replicate the problem we have on this site, that it's being run by a few people hiding behind the scenes who don't allow the users to make any decisions at all, and who don't even engage the users. I want a site where the users run the show, together, all of us.

Ignorance is bliss. I believe they understand the good ideas and only one reason can be found as to why these ideas are not supported. Often times ideas that are beneficial get no feed back what so ever. I guess that would be including my own ideas as beneficial, though since I know they are rooted in truly wanting the best for all they are good. A community forum such as described would absolutely improve what I thought to be the intentions here. People with hidden agenda can be identified and will. This is done more quickly following as follows, first keep in mind that in doing so one must accept a certain level of discomfort having to put up with what follows implementing what is necessary in detecting posers: Keep from suggesting the emotions or feelings about other people, Good ideals of sincere intent need no defense even though it is bothersome to get nothing good in return, The best presentations for progressive forward motion are stated in positivity and always keep in mind the perfect unfolding of our world is what we live regardless of silly paid hidden agendas that will be one thing and that is lacking what matters and they know who they are and what a waste they have become in the real world. Simply stated as: nothing

The good ideas will surface and be adopted in time. Trolls such as GirlFriday can't stop that. People make up all sorts of stuff about Thrasymaque and that's OK. My ideas can't be erased. They live without me. I am only here to unleash them. People like you and others will be affected and eventually the others will be as well. It's inevitable. Good ideas can't die, they can only live and they live a long life. Truth always prevails.

For one, to create a communally run website that is connected to the affinity groups and serves as a hub for Occupy. This would improve moderation capabilities and help the movement grow by fostering better discussion. Your ideas here wouldn't be lost in the database. They could be picked up by people on the ground. Also, we could make the signup process longer and more arduous. For example, a user could be limited to one post a day for the first two weeks after which he would be free to post at will. This will discouraged banned users from coming back. We could also block proxy servers. There are list of those you can get for free. This would make it much harder to circumvent an IP ban.

You're not tired of being on a insecure site that is badly moderated? Just look at shadz66, he always knows when I'm back. It takes him two seconds to recognize me. If we had more moderators that were active on the site (there could be many to cover 24/7), then I would be banned instantly. That wouldn't make you happy? And with my arduous signup idea, I would not bother coming back.

Yeah, I had a hell of a time with GirlFriday today for agreeing with you, as you can plainly see. It is bewildering that they can't see the idea of a communal OWS site as an excellent idea. Believe me, although I get along with almost everyone on here, I know full well from experience that most people can't see past their dislike of someone and concentrate on the idea. I constantly get my comments downvoted simply because I have one person on here I butt heads with. It's frustrating. It also shows that the chances of everyone actually getting past personal differences to come together for a common cause are practically nil. So I mainly just come here to learn new things from the links provided in comments, occasionally write a post and to stay in touch with a couple people I've become friends with.

This is the result of not being connected to affinity groups, to the reality of Occupy. People here don't have to come together because they never have to translate their ideas into reality. If we were connected to the going on's of Occupy then we could be active participants in the creation and organization of events. That would force us to put our differences aside and come to agreements for certain things like creating posters, creating adverts for social media, choosing speakers for various events, etc... We could have a voting system on the site to decide on issues when we can't come to a friendly consensus. When you actually have to do real stuff, real actions, then you come together to get it done. Otherwise, people just spit in the wind since there is no end goal to their discussions. By being connected to the ground, all our discussions would become meaningful because they would have an impact in reality, in practice.

Well, T, I'm pretty clueless as to how to make it a reality. Very few on here will see past their bias to get on board. Now if the admins could be persuaded to give over a little more control, it could be done here. Barring that, it would have to be a completely new site. And there have been a whole lot of OWS sites come and go over the last year and a half.

It would need to be a new site. The trick is to get a few affinity groups involved, you don't necessarily need the people from this forum to follow. With someone like Odin who has real contacts on the ground it might be possible. So, this new site would cater to these affinity groups and whoever else wanted to participate. It would help the affinity groups by gaining them members that can't make it in person. It would also connect the groups together. The site would eventually gain more an more traction and then the people here would flock to it. It takes time, but, eventually, the the people on this forum always realize I'm right.

The reason most Occupy forums died is because they were directly related to the Occupy in their city. For example, Occupy Chicago had a website. When the encampment in Chicago closed most people stopped going on the website. If you go in their forum now, it's just a bunch of spam. Also, people from afar don't feel invited to go on a forum for Occupy Chicago. They feel it's not their place if they are not from Chicago.

This forum survived because it is more general. It's for all of Occupy (or so it seems). It's not connected to a particular encampment so it did well.

Also, the software on this forum is nicer than PHPBB or other traditional forums which group everything in categories and which force you to click on page after page when you want to see all the comments to a particular post. This site is based on reedit where all the comments appear on one page. Very nice.

The trick is to not be associated with one affinity group or encampment, but to be associated with as many as possible. To function as a hub. To be connected to the ground (unlike this site), but not to be connected to a particular city (like the Chicago forum).

Maybe the problem is with the word " occupy" and it's connotation that a physical presence is required. Why couldn't affinity groups be web based (by location) and then linked to the core? Local Plans and Actions could be tracked by the affinity group yet observed by everyone. Core news and planned actions could be transmitted easily to regions and locals. All could participate locally, regionally and globally. Maybe use consensus (maybe modified) for local and some type of hybrid process for regional and so forth. It would not be structured for hierarchy, but for some organization and efficiency of operation. Even if people dont agree with a core, then just some type of linkage would be beneficial. Just a thought.

Actually, Thras, I don't think it's you as often as it may very well be. I don't see you as the type that throws in a bunch of racist stuff or that spends their time with some of the typical right wing extremist crap. You may very well be doing that. I don't think you are the one that has sent me pms that say things like "your kneegrow".

There are times when I suspect that it may be you but the arguments are quite well laid out and I enjoy reading them even if I don't agree with them at some points, like Penguento.

Your arguments start out well but they start to lose it and then they revolve around you. Wheat crops turn into all about you It's amazing to watch in action. That's the dead give away. Once I see you in action and another ID all of a sudden starts posting in the, "Wha??? Who me???"-I know your back.

I find it hard to believe that you are any of the VQs, although, you very well may be. That character has had debates that left major gaping holes. I find it hard to believe that you would do something so obvious.

I am pretty sure that you just don't like getting popped before you're ready to be found out.

Penguento is not me, and I never sent you PMs. I'm not VQ, and I'm not a conservative right winger by any stretch of the imagination. I simply believe that constructive criticism can improve Occupy.

Instead of guessing, why don't you ask jart to check the IPs of the characters you think are me? I'm only using oldJohn now, no one else. She can verify that for you.

But, to be honest, I don't mind if people think I'm using sock puppets. You all made me into a troll, not me. And, that's fine. It helps me separate those who swear by the logical fallacy of appeal to motive, and those who are able to see past the proposer and judge an idea by it's own merit. This is something I like. It saves me time. What's the point of discussing issues with people who can't even judge an idea for what it is and incessantly get caught up in attacking the proposer?

The truth is, I don't troll. Thrasymaque was banned for dissent, which is not allowed amongst anarchist and marxist. You need to follow them like you're following a cult and I don't do that. I say what I believe is right, even if that means criticizing the "so perfect" Occupy. I only create one new user at a time when the previous one is banned. Because, I believe you cannot shut down an idea. If oldJohn is not banned, I will not need to create anyone new. It's as simple as that.

Also, I never try to hide. If oldJohn is banned, I'll be glad to tell you who my new user is. I'm not here to hide behind sock puppets. That's VQ's world. I just come here to share ideas, and I don't let bans stop me from doing that.