i'm neither in trsi nor in rsi, so i don't have a reason to get upset, but nevertheless i am wondering as well -- how legitimate is it to revive a group that merged with another group over 20 years ago?

i wish irata would make a statement on this, and i will ask him to do so.

no bad words about this release, but i wonder about your legitimation to use the old group.

And a shout-out to Baudsurfer for lending us his laptop for the compo, so that we wouldn't have to rely on DOSBox for playing his entries (even if it caused some additional delay during the compo). And for choosing Outline as his first demo party since ~20 years :)

Shifter: The release is indeed astonishing, and DocD's anger is understandable yet counterproductive - nevertheless the legitimacy of claiming an old groupname is questionable in this case. Clarification, however, is on its way.

TRSi is not known for handling such affairs politically correct.
We never been and never will be conform to the scene.
But without a doubt we stick to the fundamental rules of the scene.

Releasing under a false flag is the most disrespectful act of treating a group that celebrates its 25th anniversary in 2015.
Red Sector Inc, doesnt exist standalone anymore since the merge with Tristar in 1990.

This discussion going on here, was escalating already a few years ago when kozmik/baudsurfer released under false flag.
And we faced the same arguments "teenage bla" / "flamewar" ...i dont give a shit.

We dont care if the quality of the product is high, it is not ours.
Tagging it Red Sector Inc, disrespects everything old Red Sector Inc and/or Tristar and even TRSi Members worked and stand for.

When i say that everyone thumbing this up is "lame", i mean it in that way that supporting someone who obviously spits into our face - supports his actions aswell.
Again: the quality of the product has nothing to do with it.

What would you do Knoeki if someone releases under DSS who you didnt even know?
Or Shifter - if someone popping up all year or another claiming to be member of Limp Ninja?

I guess you wouldnt be happy. Neither are we.
And we dont, really dont, care if someone calls it a "teenage feud".
Yes...we learned the rules of the scene when we were kids - and the rules didnt change, didnt they?

We never claimed to be grown ups. Even if we did, how to act with such mess as a grown up?
contacting Pouet/Gargaj about this? Done already.
Warhead and I closed that discussion years ago...
you remembers this here? http://www.pouet.net/groups.php?which=3573
We do...and since that shit is still available on pouet, allthough pouet knows that those releases are fake - we act very allergic.

Knoeki:
we are friends for a long time, you feel offended when i state something? you should know me better...

kozmik:
in other scenes, pretending to be a member by wearing the wrong jacket dont cause a thread on a board.
lucky you...

And as soon as things are clear, and if Baudsurfer's claims to RSI membership should turn out as false, these releases will be dealt with in a manner in which the "TRSI"-Fearmoths releases were dealt with - left on Pouet, but moved to a separate group like http://www.pouet.net/groups.php?which=3573 . So, please, cool down your temper and wait.

knoeki: i dont know what you are talking about about suggesting to kill anyone. whats that all about?

Flamewars: If a public statement is "flaming", what are discussions about stolen scenemusic then ? Flaming aswell? Shouldnt scene musicians be happy that well known massmedia musicians got inspired by them?
(sarcasm)

Its easy to point fingers on others and even judge there reactions on problems you arent involved.

I declared what i wrote and why i wrote it.
If you are still offended - i cant help you.

If you want to quit - i cant help you either.

dipswitch:
i know....but that might take weeks.
even thoug when such message arrives, from whoever - it is not the first statement and it means nothing. it should be enough when group officials tell you that that dude is no member.

who cares.
everyone shall do what he want and release under the label he want.
no group joinings needed anymore right?

I forgive you :
-for insults towards me ;
-for discouraging peers to like my work ;
-for hinting at false accusations of stealing code by proxy ;
-for accusing me to be an impostor ;
-for implicitly threatening me with physical violence ;
-for comparing me to someone who distributed a virus in a demo ;
-for writing emails behind my back to site administrators asking them shun me ;
-for smearing me and my group and my friends in general.

You most likely have personal issues and I've been there too, so when you sober up and read again what you wrote today publically and feel ashamed, remember I forgave you.

Also rest assured I never "obviously spat in [anybody's] face" (too respectful) nor am I wearing the "wrong jacket" (meaningless). I'd love to talk with you and try to arrange things like Tristar did when they left your group for example even if I'm not German.

But you cannot ask me to abandon the first pseudo of my first group because it's something very precious in my life : I'm sure you understand and feel the same way about your group today.

Quote:

Red Sector was build in spring 1985 by three Canadians called Billy Best, Greg and Kangol Kid. In the summer of 1985 The Skeleton and Baudsurfer were asked to set up RSI's WHQ Pirate's Ship BBS. Supposedly "RSI ran the first Canadian bulletin board EVER!" [4]. End of 1985 /early 1986 Irata (swapper) and Mr Zeropage were asked to join RSI and set up the European section. Later in 1992 Iratas would revive RSI/TRSI [5]. Was a part of The Light Circle. RSI became famous with their legendary demo 'Red Sector Mega Demo' that is still considered a classic to this day. The group's initial foray onto the PC scene involved a productive cooperation with the US PC group, Public Enemy. Red Sector built a co-op with Tristar (Tristar & Red Sector Incorporated) around 1990 on the PC and Amiga. At that time RSI was dead on the C64. RSI was reborn in 1992. In the year 1993 Red Sector was the best 1st release group on the C64. They ruled that year like no-one else. In the year 1995 Three main organizers now, Control, Warhead and Uyanik! German graphician Navy (ex BASF, 12/93) were kicked early in the year, for unknown reasons [6]. In the year 2008 BaudSurfer(TRSi-TDT)reclaimed part of membership in RSI dating back to its BBS creation era in Canada as co-sysop and swapper of Pirate's Ship BBS (TRSi WHQ) along with The Skeleton (TRSi-TDT) [www.phrack.org/issues.html?id=2&issue=44].
1985 . Red Sector Inc founded on the Commodore 64 in Canada.
1985 . First WHQ Pirate's Ship BBS is founded in Canada.
1986 . Red Sector releases on the Amiga
1990 . Public Enemy founded
1990 . Public Enemy team up with Red Sector Inc who are now also on the PC
1990 . On the Amiga Red Sector teams up with Tristar to form TRSI, on the PC they remain separate
1990 . PE and Red Sector team up with Tristar and The Dream Team : Public Enemy/Tristar Red Sector Inc/Defjam/The Dream Team
1991 . PE leaves the coalition leaving TRSI/TDT on their own
1991 . TRSI and The Dream Team part ways
1994 . Early in the year the group peaks
1994 . TRSI dies after it's UK members leave to join Legend
1995 . TRSI on the PC reemerges and then dies again
2003 . TRS Tristar leaves the coalition / TRSI goes on
2008 . RSI leaves the coalition / TRSI goes on

Baudsurfer: Thanks for explaining yourself here. Unlike DocD, I have no personal interest in this affair since I'm not a TRSI or TRS or RSI member. However, there were several cases of sceners claiming wrong identity in the past, and I think it's important to clear such instances up.

I am waiting for a statement from the original RSI members. In the meantime, I checked the Phrack issue you were referring to: http://phrack.org/issues/44/2.html (the link you provided is broken). Unfortunately for you, it includes nothing that strengthens your point. Pirate's Ship BBS is listed, however there is no mention of you as Co-Sysop. Also, none of the BBS ads or BBS lists available online priovide any association with "Baudsurfer" and "Pirate's Ship". The only source here is a Wikipedia article which is not substantiated by any proof except for the Phrack article (which, as I said, does not mention you).

Please do not see this as a personal attack, I am trying not to take sides here - if you have any other convincing proof of your association with RSI, TRSI-TDT, or Pirate's Ship BBS (old textfiles, scrolltexts, etc.), we'll all be most happy to see it.

on that regard: baudsurfer seems to be quite a capable (size)coder so why would he need to lie about his oldschool-roots? please resolve this in a grownup manner without anybody crying or quitting or throwing shit in public.
even if the scene rules from last century still apply the context in which they are called upon has changed a lot since then.

oh and for the rest of the crybabies: trsi has an image to live up to, so dont be too surprised about the choice of language ;)

I did threat with physical violence? ?
I Write emails behind someones back??
What Virus in what Demo are you Talking about?
WHO Stole Code from which Proxy ?

I dont have a clue what you are talking about.
I have no mental issues, i just dont understand why almost everyone here thinks that your behaviour is totally okay and agrees with that.
That is really sad.i didnt expect that.

The only thing i do is apologize to all who feel offended while i judged then just by thumbing your Production up.
That was not okay.

Anyway once again you fill The summerhole. And once again i di aswell.

docd: i've been in the scene about as long as trsi exists but i wasn't aware of any "fundamental rules of the scene" that prevent people from releasing under whatever label they're a member of, past or present. if baudsurfer was ever part of rsi, in my mind that's all he needs to be entitled to release under that label today. in a similar fashion, i am free to release whatever the fuck i want under the giants, fun and lineout labels, i don't need permission from corsair, bonus or earx for that, they gave it to me by making me a member of their groups.

your deduction makes sense to me though, but only when i'm wearing my warez scene glasses. a lot of the ethos you are advocating appears to stem from that direction. the problem with that is, most demosceners today pretty much despise warez scene and it's hierarchical approach to organisation. why should some self declared "leader" have any say about a scener's right to release? in my mind, that goes directly against the one and only true fundamental of the demoscene (freedom).

I have been trying to talk to DocD for two nights in a row in his irc group channel to no avail. I will try again tonight.
Since I was also in Trsi at one point, I have been in that +k channel for 6 years now at least once a week although we have sadly never talked.
Because thread is derailling constantly it forces one to intervene regularly here.

There is a confusion between Kozmik/Trsi and Baudsurfer/rsi : when Warhead accepted me in Trsi and when Irata kicked me out of Trsi, it was as ex-kozmik/nextempire, not as baudsurfer. I never badged around.
I accepted Trsi's decision then and I still accept it today. It saddened me sure but that's just the way it goes.
In fact I have no problem with the hierarchical approach of the so-called warez-scene although as some have posted here it seems sometime anachronic to most and even somewhat counter-productive, but that's another debate.

Now...At the start I'm exclusively with Canadians in rsi, I go back to France, I turn around, and then all of a sudden rsi is supposedly an all German group with people running around yelling "Uber! Uber!" : I don't know what happened.
Up to this day I don't know what happened still, but I'm caring less and less because there are probably more important issues that appeared since then in the scene and I grew up.

When in rsi we were friends and young at heart. It was about helping others. Frankly some groups were less about demo releasing than having some virtual magic place where we could just be ourselves.
In particular, rsi was less about demoscene than cracking/spreading, less about cracking/spreading than Philes/Phreaking, and less about Philes/Phreaking than "connecting" with others and sharing.

Like many, it's an everyday struggle to hold on to that spirit nowadays. I don't care about legends or eelite anymore : I care about holding on to the spirit.
I respect Trsi as a group, but they left rsi dying for over a decade : picking it back up since 2008 is not only legitimate but can only be good for both Trsi, rsi and the demoscene in general.
Let's move on and bring in more interesting people in this "computer underground culture" (whatever).

As for the Red Sector thing... First reaction is the smell of bullshit, i have to say, sorry if i'm wrong. But co-sysopin a BBS in 1985 (which no one seems to remember), then fooling around with Nextempire 15 years later, than again almost 15 years later doing great tiny intros. I guess Baudsurfer has to be a bit old for these kind of group wars (45-50 years old?) :)

Well, if it's all true it's a fascinating scene- and growing up story if nothing else!

havoc, with all due respect, but your argument is completely ridiculous. does it mean that a group can not kick a member even for misconduct, low quality of productions? i know dozens of modern-day demogroups that did act in this way, and rightfully so. i'm pretty sure even the atari demo scene functions in that way.

groepaz:
not exactly, i noticed way earlier...but only noticed the orgaz about it some months ago! Only after someone else re-recognized some weeks ago investigation is going on with the real RSI-founders...kinda hard, since they are in canada still...seems they still use BBS as they dont have any Internet at the NorthPole or sth! ;) :D
The Snailmail is being delivered by Mad Elks to the Kangol Kid! If not MAGIC intervenes....most likely Lord Helmet will be the Stalin of the Scene once again...maybe...maybe not! :D

I was member of TRSI about 16 years ago, but it lasted about 2 weeks when they fuked up M&M 6 rip release which obviously got nuked and everyone laughed us :D What was my status to the group? To help the group to get HQ's on several top sites at that time.

@hardy
Paradox was one of our HQ, but kicked when they fucked up pre.
One of the nicest in person on PDX was their dongle cracker, many other did emulation cracks, he did a pure fukin crack. Maybe he works for another group, but he was the best and kind person. Miss him a lot.

Well, every medal has two sides and in our case, we decided to stop TRS Scene activities because the struggle and anger won´t stop back between both groups.

If you´re a part of RSI, then also Irata might confirm this, he is the eldest available part of this Group...... but at the end - it´s not about who got the right to use what Name.

I´m Tristar, I´m Netacs and I´m also now ACTIVE TSA...
Thats all ok..., and i think nobody would be unhappy if you keep, wear and maybe also got a printed logo on your Shirt etc. but releasing under this Name is a bit different.

Look, there are many People in TRSi and they are also proud of their work and longterm friendship. I know that warhead might overact when it comes to those "Names Games" but from his Point it´s understandable. He protected TRSi all the years as i did it over 10 years with TRS and so, it´s understandable.

btw. TRSi was never dead. The People that got the lead since the Fusion in 1990 never stated or confirmed those "Group is dead - Deadtros"

Dead means when a Lead or more Leads say :

"The Group is Dead !"

...Like we did on 15. Sept. 2012 on www.tristar-whq.org and in a official Meeting. Such a "happy" Event N E V E R happened in TRSi !

you might continue as "red sector inc." ...
you might chose an own Name...
you might also come to us and join - The Solaris Agency BUT ONLY, when you stop acting active as Red Sector Inc.

Be clever, it seems so you are ;-)
Wear the Label but don´t act under it > produce releases. Tristar was also many years a part of my life, it´s still a part anyway but hey. it doesn´t hurt to much to use another Name for productions,
Let your page stay - as example - as a Memorial like we did on linky

Thank you for not being one of those "das boot" bashers here and actually enclined to exchanging.

Yes, it is true I stopped reading comments on this prodpage, so to stay "healthy" in my mind and advance. After a few piggies, I nevertheless start to wonder if there is some fire to extinguish though and that is how I came to reading your mildly OK post. All other meaningful queries can be redirected to my email address as I have/will not read them here anymore, and you can blame your usual troll culprits there.

As someone mentionned in the first posts adding an age interval, I am too old to really care about BS anymore or groupwars. RSi was officially declared dead as I typed above from official group history when absorbed in TRSi in 1990. Contrary to your belief Irata is not "the eldest available part of this Group" : I am. And I wasn't absorbed in TRSi, although a decade later I would enter group through another story. I don't agree or recognize any legitimacy to this absorption therefore and don't see any of my old friends in this "magic move" either.

Quote:

in the spring of 1985, The Skeleton & Baudsurfer set up RSI's first domain, "The Pirates Ship" BBS the following summer, which was one of US's first BBSes. Eventually the Pirates Ship became the "Dawn of Eternity" BBS. At the end of the year, Irata[3] & Mister Zeropage were asked to join the group [...]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tristar_and_Red_Sector_Incorporated
PS : I see also in addition, in Wikipedia revert history, that since the release of this demo, someone thought it would be funny to "wiggle it" and add "After the initial formation", which is a subject I already alluded to/predicted, along with the previous edits, as for example Irata entering the group in 1986 modified to become afterwards as late 1985 instead : it don't matter one bit to me as Internet is online lie and most importantly I am not against anybody, including yes, the likes of Irata or associated fanboys.

You do make a valid point though when you state some people "are also proud of their (previous ?) work" : I was ready to discuss the issue and bring forward a satisfiable solution for it before reading the ill-mannered curses : still up for grabs when protagonists stop thinking of themselves only and embrace the big picture. The few can be reassured we will not take credit for prods between 1990 and 2008, they have my word. Please understand though, that this valid point also upholds for myself and my friends though, just to be fair.

Now, as said I took back my first nick of my first nick because : I am entitled to it, I wanted to clarify and simplify the end of my "long journey", I wanted to be able to be reached by co-founders of RSi eventually one day (who knows ?), I have to be true to the real deal, to what really happened then, to myself, to my early friends in the midst of this crazy world. The rest will just have to deal with it and have their own *other* group for almost 25 years now. Their freedom stops where my own begins. Live and let live. All past members will always be honorary members in RSi anyway, even for the much awaited 30th anniversary.

And just to be really really clear : what RSi is engaged nowadays into probably is exclusively tiny prods for now, along assembly language promotion and push for women/kids in scene at demoparties : not cracking, not co-ops (maybe after this first/last one), not war mongering : scene changes, people change, groups' goals change with time. Any size-orientated assembler programmer can contact us btw as stated on our official page.

Anyway, you story is cool too. I hope we get to talk irl one day. Not one story is more important than another, not one person is more elite than the other deep down.

anyway, it would be nice if those "Groupnames" problems will vanish forever, ...please Baudsurfer, think about the possibilities i told you....

le(t)ft "red sector" stay as a memorial and start something new ( no matter if your point of view might be right or not. ) This will be the most relaxing way for both sides. Enough here from my side about this thematic.

Gertrude:
Except of we had been "friends" already...once in RSI, once in TRSI and it showed it doesn´t work! ;)
I am absolutely not involved except of being a member of actual TRSi, but...all i get from that, via internal communication, is that he really should let down already.
My 2cents would be:
Eventho he may(!) think having some rights to use the name/label RSI: Organizers of RSI lateron in time decided to merge with Tristar and rename to TRSI forever...since then RSI and Tristar do not exist anymore due to that decision!!! ;)
Since Daimler-Benz and Chrysler fusioned there is only Daimler-Chrysler, noone is allowed to release a Car under Chrysler exclusively anymore! :p
Thats not childish at all! Childish is if someone persists on the past, not accepting changes that happen(ed) in Time!

hardy: apart from that your chrysler example is wrong and that there are still many new chryslers released (and the fact they're owned by fiat) there's a slight difference between trademarked brands, commercial contracts and other legal documents versus a bunch of overreacting 35+ yos cos someone gives a fuck about some demo group fusion ;) in fact, if his early member arguments are true, he has all rights to not give a fuck as well :)

First off, great prod. :) I'd do a regular comment but that would give a piggie. So I can't not thumb this up.

Quote:

by rez:
Said the guy who is proud that his crew makes BALLOON and SOCKS.

\:D/

Hey, I think those are pretty neat ideas. Everyone else is doing stickers. First thing I came up with was key fobs, but they went for balloons and socks. I would not have thought of doing socks (or, I guess, balloons either). Plus everyone remembers them, so I think they did pretty well there on the promotional front. :)