Posted 3 years ago on Feb. 16, 2012, 2:29 p.m. EST by toonces
(-117)
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I was thinking that when OWS reorganizes this spring and summer, we should make sure that we make it a point to support Israel and the Jewish people. Israel has been, and is going to be under tremendous pressure to cede to the Islamic Arab countries to give up land and settlements. It hardly seems fair that of all the huge tracts of land controlled by Arabs in the middle east, the tiny country of Israel is the one being strong armed by the UN to give up their land. It is also the only country in the mid east that protects the rights of individuals to worship freely and practice unpopular lifestyles (like being a homosexual or woman).

I definitely think it is important to make it a point to make it clear that we are supporting the underdog, no matter what part of the world they are in.

who said an Israeli attack you kill 100k-1million people? Note that many of the Arab countries fear a Nuclear Iran so i don't think world view of Israel would change much. , though they publicly stay quiet on the subject, If possible would be good to have a surgical attack; put two bullets in Imadinnerjacket's head then pop him in the ocean, blow up the goosestepping Republican Guard and the send the Mullahs to a gay bathhouse (with angry gay clients).

t : The "underdog" that you're thinking of is an extremely powerful and armed to the teeth, quasi-military state in possession of an arsenal of Nuclear Weapons (aka WMDs) & with a uniquely attached, supportive and indulgent ally, ie The U$A - The Global Hyper-Power of our times !

Why are you lumping all 'Arabic Speaking' people together ? Do you do the same for "Europeans" ?!

Why have you singularly failed to use the word "Palestinian" ?!!

Today or tomorrow "Apartheid South Africa" will be the definitive paradigm to show the way forward towards a 'True Equitable Solution' based upon Democracy, Respect for Human Rights and a 'Non Racialised' Concept of "Citizen" irrespective of colour, creed or confession / 'race' or religion !!!

another loony left dude who hates Israel. Palestinians and other muslim states have the apartheid -- only muslims allowed. Israel has been attacked when it wasn't that strong and it still defeated the idiot muslim countries that attacked it. Israel is surrounded by enemies on every border so what do you expect from them than to build there defenses.

"Today or tomorrow "Apartheid South Africa" will be the definitive paradigm to show the way forward towards a 'True Equitable Solution' based upon Democracy, Respect for Human Rights and a 'Non Racialised' Concept of "Citizen" irrespective of colour, creed or confession / 'race' or religion !!!

"To many of their fellow Israelis, they are traitors. They have been attacked, arrested and demonised. Yet Israelis like Yehuda Shaul, leader of ’Breaking the Silence’ and Jonathan Pollack from ’Anarchists Against the Wall’ continue to struggle for a more peaceful Middle East. They believe that they can save their state by putting an end to the military occupation of Palestinian territory. But the Israeli peace movement has lost momentum in recent years. There is widespread apathy in Israel about ending the occupation, especially after the withdrawal from Gaza. "Israel vs Israel" takes a fresh look at one of the dominant tensions in Israeli society."

if the damn muslims countries would stop attacking Israel they never would have taken those 'occupied lands'. Israel beat down the bumbling muslims in 48,67 and 73 so its their land to do as they wish. . Unless you agree with the hitler in a head scarf, Mahmoud Imadinnerjacket ,who thinks that all of Israel needs to be destroyed.

'c99' : No. Israel needs to change and every Jewish friend or acquaintance I have accepts and advocates this. Furthermore, we should actively note your refusal / failure to use the word "Palestinians".

Calmly consider that 'Assmaninadinnerjacket' and his warblings are irrelevant to Israel and the fear is faux and disingenuous other than as politically calculated rhetorical strategy in order to push for WAR !!!

oh shadz66 what are we to do with you? i'll mention Palestinians..Palestinians are led by corrupt, bigoted leaders. Palestinians are their own worst enemy. Palestinians cheered when 9/11 happened. Palestinians are and love terrorism against innocent civilians.

Hmmm. Your Abject 'Racism' (and lets face it, that is the only appropriate word) is most revealing as are your propagandist lies. It is clear you're not a fan of Palestinians in particular and I'm guessing, 'Muslims' in general, so what d'you think of Arabs being Christians too ? In 1947, over 25% of The Palestinians were Christian.

Further, isn't it amazing to think that no less than three Israeli prime ministers - Begin, Shamir and Sharon - were not only identified as terrorists by the British government, but were in fact proudly self-proclaimed terrorists advocating violence for 'political ends' ?!

Shamir made no secret of his involvement in massacres and assassinations. In fact, in 1943 he authored an article called "Terror" for the journal of the group he headed (Lehi), which was described as a terrorist organization by the British authorities.

However, Israel granted a general amnesty to Lehi members on 14 February 1949. In 1980, Israel even instituted a military decoration, "the Lehi ribbon". So, it would seem that Israel entertains a very ambiguous relationship with terrorism, embracing it fervently when it serves its interests and condemning it with self-righteous indignation when it does not.

As for Menachem Begin, he joined the terrorist group Irgun in 1942 and "was responsible for the bombing of the British administrative and military headquarters at the King David Hotel in Jerusalem in 1946 { http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing }. 91 people, British, Arab and Jewish, were killed. According to a documentary by 3BM Television, this was known for decades as "THE DEADLIEST TERRORIST ATTACK of the 20th century."

Nowadays we frown on those "fanatical Islamic extremists", but what was Begin during the forties if not a 'fanatical Zionist extremist' ? In fact, he was "a fierce critic of dominant Zionist leadership for being too cooperative with British "colonialism". Begin financed one terrorist operation after another against the British by "extorting money from Zionist businessmen" and "running bogus robbery scams in the local diamond industry" ! If in doubt about anything said here, consult Wikipedia.

Two wrongs never make a right but systemic and selective myopia about the violence being merely the product of only one side is also a strategically employed rhetorical device that is mendacious, manipulative and meant to deceive.

We can delve into recent history, pick and choose an outrage and trade. Your knowledge of the recent "Operation Cast Lead" may be different to mine ; Your belief in the death of Arabs as being different to the death of Jews may be different to mine ; Your views that deaths at the hands of 'irregular forces' are somehow different to deaths at the hands of The Israeli Army may be different to mine ; Indeed your ideas of differences between death by bomb or bullet, tank or bulldozer ; random rocket or targeted missile - may be different to mine ... but consider that 'the eternal crime' of The Palestinians is that they just won't just roll over and accept their dispossession like pliant cattle and also that Jewish people have been living in Iran for well over 2000 years (& this'll come as a shock to you) and still continue to do so !!

moron, i know the difference between arab and muslim, but most jews and christians in these majority muslim countries, have either left or suffer as 2nd rate citizens with physical violence raged against them. Yes (cuss word) muslims, (cussword ) palestinians. Muslims are the biggest bigots in the world. fortunately for the civilized judeo christian world, muslims are their own biggest enemy.

no i hate muslims because they hate me. its called self defense. You love muslims, well go live in a country dominated by them if you don't already. go live in palestine see how great their societies are.

are you really that slow? that's what the stupid liberals where asking after 9/11. 'Oh what did we do to make the Muslims angry??' We didn't do a damn thing but muslims still killed innocent Americans and have been at war with the U.S. before any of you stupid liberals even knew it . Is that enough of a reason you (cuss word)ng (cuss word).

You really seem consumed by both hatred and hubris, redolent in your anger, arrogance and aggression for people who you don't know but who you have been taught to hate. The dark propaganda and mind-management from those who purport to 'lead and inform' Americans, is truly staggering.

9/!! had nothing whatsoever to do with the vast and overwhelming majority of Muslims in the world, yet it lead not only to the USA PATRIOT Act but also to the invasion and destruction of both Iraq and Afghanistan by a coalition of mainly Christian countries, mainly to further the Imperial Objectives of The U$A. One wonders what we'd make of it in The West IF a coalition of Muslim countries were to invade and decimate an ostensibly 'Christian' country ?!

The Imperial WAR Machine needs hydro-carbons and other resources and will stop at nothing in order to get them. Where there was 'Communism' for nearly fifty years, now there are 'Muslims' ...

I've a distinct feeling that you're not a big fan of Palestinians in particular and 'Muslims' in general, so what d'you think of Arabs being Christians too ? Even before Europeans were. In 1947 over 25% of The Palestinians were Christian. Does this have any bearing on your thoughts ?

Also, when you say that you'll bring your 'smoker', can I bring my 'bong' - because it really sounds as though you need it ;-)

Not so much. Bringing bombs onto school buses and to weddings with nails and ball bearings just defines them as savages. I guess there are still some Christians that have been able to hide and keep their beliefs secret to avoid the punishments that would be dished out to those infidels.

Come on geezer, take a 'hit on the bong' here & tell me - you don't really believe that Only Muslims have been responsible for the violence in the area, do you ?! + Herbal or Solid or ... both ?! Cough, splutter and 'ahem' ;-)

By the way, have you ever heard of 'Bar Giora' ; 'Hashomer' ; 'The Stern Gang / Lehi Underground / The Irgun' ; The 'Haganah' and The 'Palmach' ?!

Do you know what their modus operandi was or what there whole 'raison d'etre' was ?!!

If the Arabs put down their arms, there would be peace in the middle east.
If Israel put down their arms, the Arabs would wipe them off the face of the Earth.... and then they would come for us and any other western civilized country. Hatred of the Jews never ends with the Jews.

@ T/t : But isn't it amazing to think that no less than three Israeli prime ministers - Begin, Shamir and Sharon - were not only identified as terrorists by the British government, but were in fact proudly self-proclaimed terrorists advocating violence for 'political ends' ?!

Shamir made no secret of his involvement in massacres and assassinations. In fact, in 1943 he authored an article called "Terror" for the journal of the group he headed (Lehi), which was described as a terrorist organization by the British authorities.

'Lehi' and Irgun were jointly responsible for the infamous and horrific Deir Yassin massacre in April 1948, ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre ) in which 107 villagers, including women and children, were brutally murdered. However, Israel granted a general amnesty to Lehi members on 14 February 1949. In 1980, Israel even instituted a military decoration, "the Lehi ribbon". So, it would seem that Israel entertains a very ambiguous relationship with terrorism, embracing it fervently when it serves its interests and condemning it with self-righteous indignation when it does not.

As for Menachem Begin, he joined the terrorist group Irgun in 1942 and "was responsible for the bombing of the British administrative and military headquarters at the King David Hotel in Jerusalem in 1946 { http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing }. 91 people, British, Arab and Jewish, were killed. According to a documentary by 3BM Television, this was known for decades as "THE DEADLIEST TERRORIST ATTACK of the 20th century."

Nowadays we frown on those "fanatical Islamic extremists", but what was Begin during the forties if not a 'fanatical Zionist extremist' ? In fact, he was "a fierce critic of dominant Zionist leadership for being too cooperative with British "colonialism". Begin financed one terrorist operation after another against the British by "extorting money from Zionist businessmen" and "running bogus robbery scams in the local diamond industry" ! If in doubt about anything said here, consult Wikipedia.

Two wrongs never make a right but systemic and selective myopia about the violence being merely the product of only one side is a strategically employed rhetorical device that is mendacious, manipulative and meant to deceive.

That's it? WWII era acts of violence? Iran in cahoots with Germany exterminating Jews. Can't understand why there would be violence during a World War. How about addressing rockets being lobbed into cities from Lebanon a year ago. Why not mention the Fogel family murders that were done in March this year (Israeli family of 5 killed in terror attack http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/meast/03/13/west.bank.family.killed/index.html ). How about the past four decades of Yassar Arafat?

We can delve into recent history, pick and choose an outrage and trade. Your knowledge of the recent "Operation Cast Lead" may be different to mine ; Your belief in the death of Arabs as being different to the death of Jews may be different to mine ; Your views that deaths at the hands of 'irregular forces' are somehow different to deaths at the hands of The Israeli Army may be different to mine ; Indeed even your ideas of differences between death by bomb or bullet, tank or bulldozer ; random rocket or targeted missile - may be different to mine ... but you really can't get away with the "Iran in cahoots with (Nazi) Germany" !!

Consider that 'the eternal crime' of The Palestinians is that they just won't just roll over and accept their dispossession like cattle and also that Jewish people have been living in Iran for well over 2000 years (& this may come as a shock to you) - and still continue to do so !!!

I read your link about the death of a Jewish family (article doesn't mention "The Fogels" explicitly) and regard it as an atrocious and contemptible crime. Believe me 'toonces' that The Palestinians, Muslim and Christian - have their stories too and that 'an eye for an eye' - just makes the world blind.

I'm afraid that it seems that our 'bbq, bongs & beers' party has fizzled out, so I leave you with some reading matter :

The link may not mention them by name, but you are a smart guy, you know who it was.... And if you don't, I am sure I do not need to teach you how to use google... But then again, maybe I do, because you seem content to spew lies that are easily dismissed with an even cursory search.

I didn't doubt the link about the murdered family and I even tried to get you to notice to give another one. I saw and read your links re. Nazi Germany and Iran and they're quite interesting but you're not trying to suggest that modern Iranians harbour race based feelings against Jews are you ? You really ought to view those 'You Tube' links just above, in order to disabuse yourself of those misconceptions, I think.

Despite our sudden fall out, I'd be grateful if you could point out where I may have "spewed lies", such that I may apologise and correct them.

Sorry, I din't mean to get all personal on you. i am just getting tired of people saying that Israelis are the terrorists and the Palestinians are the poor misinterpreted peace loving dove raisers that are being used to breed babies to feed the Israelis. Iran supports Hamas and Hezbollah. Hamas and Hezbollah are not in the business of the manufacture of Yamakas. They are in the business of wiping Jewish scum from the face of the Earth.

Consider that in the approaching scenario of an Israeli attack on Iran, that although Netanyahu has been advised against it by top Mossad and Israeli military officers, and although the Israeli people staged a huge demonstration when news of the impending war was leaked to them, the fact that he is still pushing for war suggests that Netanyahu is the one who is willing to risk having Israel wiped off the map.

But, they don't strap on bomb belts filled with nails and ball bearings and explode themselves in schoolyards and buses murdering innocent children like the Palestinians do... Now, there is a real "sceed of hate, evil and supremacism."

but dropping them from planes - no problem - as lloyd george said "we insisted on reserving the right to bomb niggers." or maybe gas! this is winston churchill - "[I advocate] using poisoned gas against uncivilised tribes [and] against recalcitrant Arabs as an experiment. [I do not understand] the squeamishness about the use of gas [...] We cannot in any circumstamstances acquiesce in the non-utilisation of any weapons which are available to procure a speedy termination of the disorder which prevails on the frontier." very civilized - those bastard towel heads don't know how to fight fair

Yeah well .... I'm not quite sure how we can support Israel anymore than we already do? We'll most likely bomb Iran at some point in the next year or so, we give Israel all the weaponry she asks for, etc. So the whole idea of rallying in support of Israel seems a little redundant (not to mention, this issue really has little to do with the core grievances of OWS, which center on political and corporate corruption).

Wow, really? So support israel so they can keep oppressing the Palestinians? You've got to be kidding. The Palestinians since 1967 have been systematically pushed out of their homes and had their land, life and liberty taken from them. There is no good in supporting such a destructive and more importantly, religious "state" which is what israel is.

You've got to be kidding, where do you get your news from? There have been regular news stories about how the IDF routinely go in with bulldozers to raze palestinian houses, sometimes even with the palestinians in the house to make room for more israeli settlments. Get real for gods sake.

First, there is a difference between Israel and the Jews. Many people who are citizens of Israel are NOT Jewish.

Second, Israel's government, like the government in the USA, is not a legitimate government supported by the people of the country. It is, like in the USA, a cabal of very wealthy people who control the state.

OWS should support the abdication of the governments of Israel and the USA.

Also, being opposed to Israel's terrorist polices does not equate to anti-homosexual polices or other human rights violations that may be supported by those opposed to Israel.

Case in point. Der Spiegel and many European News Agencies have linked terrorist attacks in Iran, and assassinations of Iranian Nuclear Scientists to Israel.

Also, it was wildly reported in the European Press that the Al-Qaeda in Iran, which has also been carrying out terrorist attacks, was reported two years ago to be funded by the CIA. It turns out, it was elements of Israeli intelligence posing as Americans who were funding the terrorist attacks.

Also, Israel, unlike Iran, has over two hundred nuclear weapons. This is in and of itself illegal. If it is a threat for Iran, a nation that has never attacked the USA, then I sure as hell do not want a nation like Israel, which has attacked the US, the USS Liberty, to have nuclear weapons.

Since this topic has nothing to do with OWS, and I have spent more than enough time on it, I am going to stop here.

But a simple Google search will reveal a myriad of UN votes on Israel's terrorist attacks upon the Palestine People.

Also, try Judge Goldstone's report. The incident I remembered off the top of my head, because of the sheer evil, was when an Israeli sniper shot a mother and her two children, who were waking across an open square, during Israel's last full military assault on Gaza a couple of years ago. The children were both under six years of age. Sheer terror.

Although I don't disagree with the gist of what you're saying (which I understand to be 'both sides have committed terrorist acts") Goldstone himself renounced his earlier conclusions when new information became available.

My point, the actions of Hamas and Hezbollah, legal or illegal, in no way justify what Israel is doing. This is a separate issue.

Furthermore, the corporate press in this country has Americans engage in a knee jerk response that it is both sides. The crimes of Israel far outweigh anything Hamas and Hezbollah have done.

Finally, Israel treats Israeli non-Jews as second class citizens and a condition of Apartheid exists in the State. Anything Hezbollah and Hamas do, no matter how distasteful and violent, is perfectly legal to overthrow a terrorist government oppressing them. This is why the Palestine, even considering their violent actions, regularly find General Assembly votes in the UN almost unanimously in their favor, usually with only Israel and the US voting against actions.

I don't think I could possibly disagree with you more on this, for so many reasons I can't begin to count them.

But, as this has nothing whatsoever to do with OWS, I won't pursue it.

I have no doubt that you say what you do as a person of conscience, but understand that other people of equal conscience can see the issue very, very differently. It is far too complex a situation, with far too many competing realties and competing myths, for there be a "one side is completely right, and the other completely wrong" kind of argument.

Perhaps you have forgotten that Iran supports Hammas and Hezbola and has vowed to wipe Israel from the face of the Earth... Seems to me that would be a reasonable explanation of why Israel would seek to assassinate those capable of manufacturing weapons that could be used to destroy them.

It does have something to do with OWS, the Israelis are being persecuted and threatened with extermination.

Vicious circle isn't it? Cause the same is true for Iran... if their people are assassinated they wound naturally feel the need to retaliate.... Israelis have been 'threatened' but never have those threat been acted upon.

As mentioned by others and myself several times in this thread. Israel is more than capable of defending itself.

If youre so worried about their security... pack your bags and enlist in their army... I hear they accept all comers who do not have Palestinian roots...

While I agree that it is a viscous circle and their a general absence of innocence all around, Iran has indeed acted upon many of its threats by via the use if its proxies. The larger threats, therefore, must be taken seriously. As far as Israel goes, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean you're not being followed.

That said, I don't believe for a second that the Netanyahu government is being anything other than dangerous and stupid and arrogant. He is Israel's "Dubbya" Bush.

Are you just a little thick? No one here is asking Israel to 'lay down its arms' we are saying it does not need US support. By all means... continue fighting... just do not drag us into your messes....

Also, by your own rationale... if countries have the right to expand their borders by waging war... why should the Arabs be asked to lay down theirs?

Toonces, I am not going to challenge you on crack pot statements by the serious ill Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who is the President of Iran, but not its leader.

That said, should we also go after, with the same violence and vigor, other groups that have made bellicose statements against the Jews. Groups such as, but not limited to: the Mormon Church, the John Birch Society, many Republican, former Democratic, Party members, the KKK, the Militia Movement groups in the USA, fundamentalist Christian Groups and so on? I am sure there are a lot more.

Since almost half of the world's Jewish population lives in the US, and a significant number in liberal New York, should we use IDF style tactics here? Should we allow Mossad or Aman to operate in the US to stamp out these groups? If not, why not? These groups have been as anti-Israel, or at least anti-Jewish.

I have never, to my knowledge, met a member of Hamas or Hezbollah. I know, personally, a member of the Florida militia who has told me in face to face conversations with need to get rid of the Jews. My family use to own businesses in Florida, and I have met real serious anti-smites down there, nothing like what I have seen here in NY and NJ. Which by the way, is why, as an American of Italian ancestry, I no longer live "down there." I was called a white nigger on more than one occasion, and I have blue eyes.

So if you are going to start a civil war in the US, OK. But if not, why only attack the enemies of Israel in the Middle East, when you could much more easily attack them here? And why are you not attacking them here?

No I have not forgot this. But it is not a crime to support and organization fighting to free a people from de facto slavery, such is the condition of Palestinians under Israeli control. Also, it is not a crime to support a state under attack, such as is Palestine from Israel.

No I don't hate Israel, and neither do most of the other Jews or gentiles in this country......and in Israel.... who criticize the policies of Israel's right-wing Likud party. Amazingly the parameter of the discussion is a lot wider in Israel than here in the US. Politicians here who have the audacity to criticize Israel can count on having a short career. Why? AIPAC!

aid to israel is not about israel - CHOMSKY: Yes. There's been a very consistent U.S. foreign policy in the Middle East, at least since the Second World War, whose primary concern has been to ensure that the energy reserves of the Middle East remain firmly under American control. The State Department noted in 1945 that these reserves constitute "a stupendous source of strategic power, and one of the greatest material prizes in world history."1

Basically it is a policy meant to keep Saudi Arabia, which has by far the largest known stores of petroleum, under American control. This has been quite explicit since World War II. In fact, during the war the government tried to expel Britain, and later France, from the region. There were forms of chicanery used to achieve that end, which was achieved, certainly, by the formation of ARAMCO [Arabian American Oil Company] in 1947.

Given U.S. control over Western Hemisphere resources, the United States thus effectively controlled the major energy reserves of the noncommunist world, with all that implied with regard to the organization of international society.2 A number of years later, the American position in the Middle East was extended. Following the CIA-backed coup in Iran in 1953, American oil companies controlled 40% of Iranian oil. By the mid 50s, American dominance of the region and total dominance of Saudi Arabia was virtually complete.

American penetration of the Saudi economy and military has been extensive. There are now about 30,000 Americans in Saudi Arabia, mostly ARAMCO employers. U.S. exports to Saudi Arabia and Iran amounted to $28 billion each in 1976, with sales to Saudi Arabia projected to reach $4.8 billion in 1977.

Noam is sometimes off the mark. How does Israel help the US dominate the petroleum resources of the Middle East? Noam doesn't want to acknowledge the Israel is ideologically important to many one percenters even it it earns enemies for the US.

well you are probably too young to know much about kissinger and rogers but go back in the history and look for yourself - lots of internal state dept documents - the greatest strategic prize in history - you are way off base here - you need to do some reading

I'm 66 years old and have always been a news junkie. Of course domination of oil is an objective of the US (full spectrum dominance). I'm saying that Israel is a fly in the ointment of that. Just how does Israel help the US dominate oil resources?

lots to read on the subject but here is a start - Chomsky: Very pleased to be with you.

Kathleen Wells: Speak to me about the relation between the United States and Israel. Specifically, address, as you have previously stated, how every crime, violation of international law, that Israel commits is done through the direct participation and authorization of the United States.

Noam Chomsky: That’s a… As a descriptive statement, that is pretty close to accurate. I mean “all” is a very strong word but it is certainly generally true. And, in fact, the United States has overwhelmingly vetoed Security Council resolutions condemning Israeli crimes and atrocities, prevented the Security Council from calling on Israel to terminate aggression, and so on and so forth. The descriptive comment is not really controversial. There are interesting questions about why it’s true. There were also interesting questions about the sources of support for this position in the United States, which helps us explain why it is true.

The history is reasonably clear. This was not the case up until 1967. In fact, before 1967, the relationships were not very different from relationships among other powers. There was sympathy and support for Israel, which has many, many sources, including the Christian Zionism, which is a very powerful force that precedes and is numerically far stronger than Jewish Zionism. But for somebody like, say, Harry Truman, raised in a deeply Christian tradition, it was just taken for granted that the Bible instructs us that God gave the land of Palestine to the Jews. So it is kind of like in his bones. And that’s true for a very large part of the American population, much more so than — far more than any other country. So that is one factor, and there are other factors.

But the major change in relationships took place in 1967. Just take a look at USA aid to Israel. You can tell that right off. And in many other respects, it’s true, too. Similarly, the attitude towards Israel on the part of the intellectual community — you know, media, commentary, journals, and so on — that changed very sharply in 1967, from either lack of interest or sometimes even disdain, to almost passionate support. So what happened in 1967?

Well, in 1967, Israel destroyed the source of secular Arab nationalism — Nasser’s Egypt — which was considered a major threat and enemy by the West. It is worth remembering that there was a serious conflict at that time between the forces of radical Islamic fundamentalism, centered in Saudi Arabia — where all the oil is — and secular Arab nationalism, centered in Nasser’s Egypt; in fact, the two countries were at war. They were fighting a kind of a proxy war in Yemen at that time. The United States and Britain were supporting the radical Islamic fundamentalism; in fact, they’ve rather consistently done that – supporting Saudi Arabia. And Nasserite secular nationalism was considered a serious threat, because it was recognized that it might seek to take control of the immense resources of the region and use them for regional interest, rather than allow them to be centrally controlled and exploited by the United States and its allies.

So that was a major issue. Well, Israel effectively destroyed Nasserite secular nationalism and the whole Arab nationalist movement that was centered in it. That was considered a major contribution to U.S. geopolitical strategy and also to its Saudi Arabian ally. And, in fact, that’s when attitudes toward Israel changed sharply and the U.S. support for Israel — material, diplomatic, and other — also increased sharply.

In 1970, there was another turning point. In 1970, the Jordanian army (Jordan was a strong, close U.S. ally) – the Jordanian dictatorship was essentially massacring Palestinians during what’s the month that’s called Black September. And the U.S. was in favor of that; it supported that. It looked as though Syria might intervene to support the Palestinians against the attack by the Hashemite dictatorship. The U.S. didn’t want that to happen. It regarded it as a threat to its Jordanian ally and also a broader threat, ultimately, to Saudi Arabia, the jewel in the crown.

While the U.S. was mired in Southeast Asia at the time — it was right at the time, a little after the Cambodia invasion and everything was blowing up — the U.S. couldn’t do a thing about it. So, it asked Israel to mobilize its very substantial military forces and threaten Syria so that Syria would withdraw. Well, Israel did it. Syria withdrew. That was another gift to U.S. power and, in fact, U.S. aid to Israel shot up very sharply — maybe quadrupled or something like that — right at that time.

Now at that time, that was the time when the Nixon … so-called “Nixon Doctrine” was formulated. A part of the Nixon Doctrine was that the U.S., of course, has to control Middle-East oil resources — that goes much farther back — but it will do so through local, regional allies, what were called “cops on the beat” by Melvin Laird, Secretary of Defense. So there will be local cops on the beat, which will protect the Arab dictatorships from their own populations or any external threat. And then, of course, “police headquarters” is in Washington. Well, the local cops on the beat at the time were Iran, then under the Shah, a U.S. ally; Turkey; to an extent, Pakistan; and Israel was added to that group. It was another cop on the beat. It was one of the local gendarmes that was sometimes called the periphery strategy: non-Arab states protecting the Arab dictatorships from any threat, primarily the threat of what was called radical nationalism — independent nationalism — meaning taking over the armed resources for their own purposes. Well, that structure remained through the 1970s.

In 1979, Iran was lost because of the overthrow of the Shah and pretty soon the Khomeini dictatorship — clerical dictatorship — and the U.S. once tried to overthrow that and supported Iraq’s invasion of Iran, and so on. But, anyway, that “cop” [Iran] was lost and Israel’s position became even stronger in the structure that remained. Furthermore, by that time, Israel was performing secondary services to the United States elsewhere in the world. It’s worth recalling that through the — especially through the 80s — Congress, under public pressure, was imposing constraints on Reagan’s support for vicious and brutal dictatorships. The governments around the world — say Guatemala — the U.S. could not provide direct aid to Guatemala, because — which was massacring people in some areas in a genocidal fashion up in the highlands — Congress blocked it.

When and where has one Israeli soldier died pursuing a policy that benefited US state interests and not Israel's?

It was in Israel's interests to bring down Nasser, support the Shah and stand by when Jordanian and Lebanese Christians slaughtered Palestinians. Syria was also implicated in the massacre of Palestinians at tel - al Zatar, Lebanon, which also served Israeli interests. The Syrian regime has maintained a cold peace along its border with Israeli occupied Syrian lands since 1967. The last time the Syrian regime massacred Islamist led Sunni Syrians there was no outcry from the western media at all nor the western governments, nor the UN. The west does seem to have a working relationship with Islamists in exYugoslavia, Libya, perhaps Egypt, and Syria, though it could be argued that the west is doing very little, very late under intense public opinion pressure to stop the Syrian regime from slaughtering Sunni Muslims. We do know that the bin Ladn family members were escorted out of the US back to Saudi Arabia in the wake of 911, that the 911 commission heads say that there work was sabotaged by the US government and that former US Senator Max Cleland resigned from the 911 Commission that there has never been a real investigation of the events of that day http://www.democracynow.org/2004/3/23/the_white_house_has_played_cover

and that hundreds of architects and engineers say that the official version of the events of that day are highly questionable.

not sure why you are telling me about 9/11 - don't really disagree there but you need to understand the local cop on the beat and control of oil etc - this may help but i doubt it. - the Nixon Doctrine was that the U.S., of course, has to control Middle-East oil resources — that goes much farther back — but it will do so through local, regional allies, what were called “cops on the beat” by Melvin Laird, Secretary of Defense. - and how about this? Well, in 1967, Israel destroyed the source of secular Arab nationalism — Nasser’s Egypt — which was considered a major threat and enemy by the West. It is worth remembering that there was a serious conflict at that time between the forces of radical Islamic fundamentalism, centered in Saudi Arabia — where all the oil is — and secular Arab nationalism, centered in Nasser’s Egypt; in fact, the two countries were at war. They were fighting a kind of a proxy war in Yemen at that time. The United States and Britain were supporting the radical Islamic fundamentalism; in fact, they’ve rather consistently done that – supporting Saudi Arabia. And Nasserite secular nationalism was considered a serious threat, because it was recognized that it might seek to take control of the immense resources of the region and use them for regional interest, rather than allow them to be centrally controlled and exploited by the United States and its allies.

Nasser's war in Yemen also had a lot to do with exhausting Egypt. Nasser was President of Egypt 'till his death in 1970, not 1967. Nasser offered to resign in 1967 and perhaps millions of Egyptians and other Arabs took to the streets to reject his resignation.

Resignation and aftermath
I have taken a decision with which I need your help. I have decided to withdraw totally and for good from any official post or political role, and to return to the ranks of the masses, performing my duty in their midst, like any other citizen. This is a time for action, not grief.... My whole heart is with you, and let your hearts be with me. May God be with us—hope, light and guidance in our hearts.
“”
Nasser's resignation speech on 10 June[125]
Israel had captured the entire Sinai Peninsula and the Gaza Strip from Egypt, the West Bank from Jordan, and the Golan Heights from Syria by 10 June.[125] The same day, Nasser announced his resignation on television, ceding all presidential powers to his then-vice president Zakaria Mohieddin.[125] Mohieddin had not been informed of this decision prior and resigned from his cabinet post in protest, rarely seeing Nasser again.[125] No sooner was the statement broadcast, however, were tens of thousands of Arabs pouring into the streets in mass demonstrations throughout Egypt and across the Arab world rejecting his resignation. Many cried in open sympathy with Nasser's position. Demonstrators adopted the Cairo slogan "We are your soldiers, Gamal!" Upon these reactions, Nasser retracted his decision the next day. His popular support also allowed him to arrest a large number of army officers, but not Amer who was given a hero's welcome in his home village.[126]

i think we are talking about two different things - control over oil - iran (under the shah) israel, turkey etc - control of mid east oil - "the greatest strategic prize in history" - if you don't think this is about oil that is fine with me but you are not thinking!

Yes, a US strategic goal is to dominate the sources of energy and be dominant militarily as well so that no other country or combination of countries can challenge US world hegemony. Israel seems not to serve this purpose. It seems to be more of an ideological affinity.

You haven't answered when and where an Israeli has died for US interests. You haven't answered how Israel helps the US dominate Saudi Arabia, or what Israel has done to advance US interests since the 1973 embargo when Saudi Arabia and others shut off the oil spigot to the US over US support for Israel.

It's pretty well understood in the US that no one rises on the national political stage who is not acceptable to Israel. It's very well known that congressional candidates who aren't supported by the Israel Lobby get opposed by well funded pols who are so supported.

AIPAC was involved in spying on the US for Israel, yet US pols are obliged to bow to AIPAC. Israel is a major supplier of arms to China. The State Department is very political (surprise) and realpolitic in the US mandates praise for Israel and defense of Israel.

Chomsky and you want to portray Israel as a mere pawn of the US. It isn't. It depends on the US, that's for sure, but it pretty much sets its terms because it is so strong inside the US.

Israel in its "independence war" used Soviet bloc Czech weaponry, not US weaponry, and the US regime was split over Israel.

I do believe that Israel is supported because it is a "white" "democracy", that a powerful sector of the US Jewish population is fanatical in this support and can do harm to anyone who opposes them, that non Jewish liberal support is partly a result of that fact and partly out of affinity with Israel's supposed western values. Then there are the Christian zionist yokels. They are numerous and they vote.

I am as opposed to the empire as Chomsky is. I can see some good in the US tying itself to Israel. The Israeli lobby gets the empire into trouble in the middle east and helps bring it into disrepute.

Israel has no lobby in the USA. Okay, you and Noam are so obviously correct. Israel has no influence within the US political system, the Israeli attack on USS Liberty, AIPAC spying, arms to China" all "nonsense." And if a person gets to be known as hostile to Israel this would not affect any political ambitions he or she might have.

"this is what state dept planners think - "local cop on the beat and control of oil etc" - maybe those planners are stupid but they have been pretty clear about why they do things. you can think what you like - the rest seems like nonsense to me"

this is what state dept planners think - "local cop on the beat and control of oil etc" - maybe those planners are stupid but they have been pretty clear about why they do things. you can think what you like - the rest seems like nonsense to me

I asked you to show me where and when any Israeli soldier died for purely American interests.

911 comes into a discussion of US collusion with Islamist forces. That whole thing stinks to high heaven.

Way back in 1967 or so Israel defeated Nasser. Okay. Nasser was a threat to Israel too. Something very strange happened then too, something I really can't understand. Israel attacked the US spy ship Liberty killing several Americans.

Israel was not in any way castigated. In fact as you point out that's when the alliance started to become much more lucrative for Israel (and the mainstream right overcame their Jew hatred enough to fall in love with Israel.)

Congress and much of the US media indeed is Israeli Occupied territory.

so true. i see no vested interest. we were smart enough to stay out of WW2 until our hand was forced... we need to go back to that foreign policy posture. we cannot afford military everywhere doing whatever we want. i am very disappointed with obama for increasing asian presence... then again northrop, general, lockheed need to make profits, and they have big K street lobbyists.

you do not understand why we support israel - it is about control over oil - nothing else! CHOMSKY: Yes. There's been a very consistent U.S. foreign policy in the Middle East, at least since the Second World War, whose primary concern has been to ensure that the energy reserves of the Middle East remain firmly under American control. The State Department noted in 1945 that these reserves constitute "a stupendous source of strategic power, and one of the greatest material prizes in world history."1

Basically it is a policy meant to keep Saudi Arabia, which has by far the largest known stores of petroleum, under American control. This has been quite explicit since World War II. In fact, during the war the government tried to expel Britain, and later France, from the region. There were forms of chicanery used to achieve that end, which was achieved, certainly, by the formation of ARAMCO [Arabian American Oil Company] in 1947.

Given U.S. control over Western Hemisphere resources, the United States thus effectively controlled the major energy reserves of the noncommunist world, with all that implied with regard to the organization of international society.2 A number of years later, the American position in the Middle East was extended. Following the CIA-backed coup in Iran in 1953, American oil companies controlled 40% of Iranian oil. By the mid 50s, American dominance of the region and total dominance of Saudi Arabia was virtually complete.

American penetration of the Saudi economy and military has been extensive. There are now about 30,000 Americans in Saudi Arabia, mostly ARAMCO employers. U.S. exports to Saudi Arabia and Iran amounted to $28 billion each in 1976, with sales to Saudi Arabia projected to reach $4.8 billion in 1977.

I realize there are some here who do not care about those who cannot take care of themselves, but most here care about those who are being overwhelmed by those who wish to beat them down. You probably say the same thing about a single mother who has three kids and no husband around to help her raise them. Some people are very sad. I will pray for you.

i'd rather pay for the care of the domestic mother than get entangled with other sovereign nations' affairs. as it is: we don't even do the former and you ask us to stand up for israel's claim to some land? let them fight for it themselves--there are genocides in africa that are far more tragic and important to tend to than losing a little bit of land. plus israel lobbies our government to get our citizens to pay for their coddling. we've given them too much already and yet they want more? forget israel.

i couldn't disagree more, both on the importance and the values. if by values you mean bribing the us government to warp policies away from favoring the general good to your own exclusive favor, then israel certainly shares that value...

AIPAC should be forced to register as agents of a foreign government or be arrested.

(Incidentally, I just "liked" you Toonces. I actually don't of course, you are evil slime, but I wanted your every word to be exposed. You are your own worst enemy. Your nature seems to come out of your pores.)

"and other Jews?" What kind of bigoted shit is that? That's like blaming all white people because of George W Bush.

Your comment would have been a lot more intelligent if you left out the bigoted discrimination. Focus on the person. Their religion has nothing to do with it, unless they're with the Westboro Baptist Church, Stormfront, or some crazy organization like those.

He didn't say the problem was with "all" Jews, but rather with "other" meaning "some" Jews.

But consider this also, in the Talmud, the Jewish book of laws, it is written:

Sanhedrin 57a . "When a Jew murders a gentile ("Cuthean"), there will be no death penalty. What a Jew steals from a gentile he may keep."

This suggests that some Jews place little value on the lives or property of gentiles. Apparently, there is quite a bit of this sort of ideology in the Talmud, you can search "Talmud quotes" at Google to know more.

Not the best justification. Specifics are better than irrational generalizations.

Just about all religious books contain bullshit text. Have you ever read the bible? To make such a bold claim is ridiculous. Like I said, stick to the specifics, there are a bunch of assholes in the Christian faith but to go out and make such bold generalizations like "the christians are out to get you" is not the smartest way to go.

If you were to read the Talmud, you would find that there is a consistent pattern of statements suggesting that it is ok to rip off non Jews. Considering the proportion of Jews that go into finance, to me, it is not surprising that such ideology would be translated into the financial area. I believe it is a valid question to ask to what extent is predatory finance Talmudic?

Sure there are other religions that are abusive in their own ways, but this only means that these aspects of those religions should be reformed, whether it is Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism or whatever, just like the laws of finance should be reformed.

You're putting a lot of words into my mouth, I didn't say that all Jews work in finance. However, I was a member of the Century City chamber of commerce for a while, which is in the financial center of West Los Angeles. A very large proportion of its members were Jewish financiers, in fact, many of them simply assumed that I was Jewish.

I don't see what is bigoted about that. I don't think that any religion should be immune to criticism, particularly to the extent that it adversely effects society as a whole.

If Christian televangelists are ripping off poor old ladies, they should be criticized and reformed, if Tibetan lamas are sexually abusing young children, they should be criticized and reformed, and if Jews or people of any religion are conducting financial crimes, they should be criticized and reformed.

What proportion of Jews go into finance? You seem to know so much about the jews and how so many of them are out to get everyone.

You said - "If Christian televangelists are ripping off poor old ladies, they should be criticized and reformed, if Tibetan lamas are sexually abusing young children, they should be criticized and reformed, and if Jews or people of any religion are conducting financial crimes, they should be criticized and reformed." - Yes, I agree, but it's all about how you word it. USE SPECIFICS and NAME NAMES. Generalizations are bigoted.

I've worked in finance....it's not the proportion that go into finance (which is high anyway) it's where they end up - CEO, CFO, COO, board of directors - look at all the major investment banks....also, some of these CEOs use their power in evil ways....example - Schultz of Starbucks has given millions to Israel for military/defense reasons - this should have nothing to do with Starbucks mission as a company yet they support Israel, I wonder why? ....Ex - Look MF Globals BODS - 5/8 of it's members are zionists.

Zionism is an important issue that cannot be ignored...it affects US foreign policy/political/government sphere, finance/financial fraud and the economy (most of the FEDS BODS are zionists) and the media (all the major media outlets are zionist cheerleaders)...Also, why are we giving foreign aid to Israel while we can be using that money (over 3 billion a year) to create jobs in the states???

Once again and to echo what GoldenDawn had said - Israel is not a democracy - no bill of rights, no constitution, limited freedoms of speech, mandatory military service, discrimination of muslims and christians (they are second class citizens), "jewish only" schools, housing units and roads and only jews can own land - this is no democracy....this is the same sort of racism Hitler championed in the 30's and 40's...In some parts of Israel men and women can't even sit together on a bus!

You like to throw the word "bigot" around a lot but I must assume that you are yourself very biased if you call anyone who says anything critical about Jews or the Jewish religion a bigot. I don't think any religion or people should be immune to criticism.

Of course no single statement about any group is always going to be true, but I do think there must be some truth in generalizations.

For example, if I said that white people tend to get sunburned easier than blacks is that bigotry? I don't know what proportion of Jews go into finance, but from what I hear and from my own experience, it is a relatively high proportion. I don't see anything bigoted about saying that.

But what if there is a tendency for people of some particular group to commit a particular abuse? For example, we can say that there has been a general tendency for Catholic priests to abuse children. This doesn't mean that all do, but rather just that too many do.

Now, if we reform one abusive priest, or even all abusive priests, it probably will not solve the problem, because there is something about the system which causes the problem and will continue to do so.

So we have to identify what is it in the system that causes priests to be abusive, and eliminate that. Perhaps it is the fact that they are not allowed to get married, maybe it is something else, but whatever that is in the system which is causing the abuse should be eliminated.

Now, it could be the same with Jewish financiers. We may throw Bernie Madoff in jail but that will not solve the problem of financial crimes in the Jewish community.

If we analyze the system of Jewish finance, we may find that it is the teachings that Jewish people receive based on passages from the Talmud, like the one I quoted above, that are causing the problem. If this turns out to be the case, than those teachings should be reformed.

So for these reasons, I believe there is some value in considering generalities.

I think that the bias shown in your replies has drawn a sufficient picture of bigotry for me already.

I care about those that cant take care of themselves but our country need to take care of itself before it goes any further into debt and without focusing on problems like corrupt government starting wars based on lies. When we solve the US's problems, then we can go back to helping other nations using diplomacy instead of war. Let's feed the poor in the US before we get to crazy about helping other nations and start more war.

"The killings were condemned by the leadership of the Haganah—the Jewish community's main paramilitary force—and by the area's two chief rabbis. The Jewish Agency for Israel sent Jordan's King Abdullah a letter of apology, which he rebuffed."

Funny, I have never seen Hammas or Hezbola apologize for nail bombing children on a school bus.

Right... shooting unarmed civilians and tossing grenades at them is 'just war'....

So if we were at war... and the enemy was wiping the floor with us... we no longer had a formal military... and then they were to kick in your door and toss in a grenade killing most of your family... and do the same to everyone else in your neighborhood... (lets throw in some children too)... and then says sorry... you would be cool with it right? Or were they not 'innocent people' ?

They did not
throw in a grenade, they entered the home and butchered the family. Apart from that, how in any way does a middle class family in a suburban neighborhood be classifies as a military target? Oh, right, they cannot in any way be considered that.... Ergo, Palestinians are terrorists attacking unarmed, unsuspecting civilian targets. Palestinians are the criminals, not Israelis.

Because the people in the neighborhood use their civilian status to hide the Palestinian terrorists. They do not have the honor to show their faces, they hide amongst the innocents (or as innocent as you can be to allow terrorists to hide amongst you). hey wear no uniform, they hide amongst civilians and they attack innocents from their hiding places. The governments of Lebanon and Syria allow them to use their territories as a base for their terrorist activity.

Again...

If the Arabs put down their arms, there would be peace in the middle east.

If Israel put down their arms, the Arabs would wipe them off the face of the Earth....

and then they would come for us and any other western civilized country. Hatred of the Jews never ends with the Jews.

Are you suggesting that everyone in those neighborhoods knows who the terrorists are? Are you saying that all of the civilians, knowingly and willingly hid those murderers? Are you saying that none of them were unaware, that none of them may have been threatened?

The terrorists are a minority. To use them and their activities as an excuse to commit such acts makes them just as bad if not worse.

Also... by that yardstick, we should have just firebombed Abbottabad in Pakistan... cause they all had to have known that Osama was there right? Why even waste that one chopper?

I would tell you (again) that no one is telling Israel to stop fighting/lay down its arms/roll over and die (Not me anyway), but you don't seem to want to listen.

But Israel isnt deserving of US aid. It does not need us to give out money or free weapons or our troops. It has nuclear weapons, a modern and powerful military and no comparable military power in its neighborhood.

It can take care of itself.

I have said my piece. I refuse to expend any more energy in futility when I know you are not going to change your mind.

Yes, most of the people in those neighborhoods know the terrorists are there and know who they are. most of the peole in a drug neighborhood know where the drug dealers are and who are the dealers. It may not be fair, but neither is using the neighborhood as cover while you wage war against another country.

I guess if your viewpoint is unsupportable it is easier to not respond than it is to try to justify the indefensible.

I hate Hezbola. But both Hamas and Hezbola never targeted school buses.

It was Israel which happily killed 1500 civilians (300 of whom were children) in its "brave" battle against Lebanon in Aug. 2006 in response to Hezbola seizing 2 IDF soldiers!

Maybe you remember what the "brave" Israel IDF did to Gaza in 2008 killing hundreds of children and women with phosphorus bombs. Then imposed a siege and killed peaceful Flotilla people in int'l waters who wanted to bring some food and medicine to 1.5 million Gazans under siege.

What a peaceful nation Israel is!

It runs in their blood – they love spilling blood.
I hope Israel disintegrates and the Jews there will move out of Palestine to give the world the peace it deserves.

In Lebanon, this war is known as the "July War," while many Israelis call it the "Second Lebanon War."

Hezbollah launched "Operation True Promise" at 9:05 AM, on July 12, 2006. The operation began with a diversionary attack of rockets and mortar shells fired at Israeli settlements and military posts near the Israel-Lebanon border. Hezbollah troops then entered Israel, attacked two armored Israeli Humvees, patrolling the border village of Zar'it, with rocket propelled grenades, killing three soldiers and capturing two others. The Hezbollah force then retreated back into Lebanon with their captives, later identified as Ehud Goldwasser and Eldad Regev.

Nice... You seem to support people whose goal is so unpopular they have to hide their faces and people who want a "reign of terror". Yeah, I'll hop right aboard that mob... Are their emblems a nigger hanged from a tree?

Several facts have to be laid out there before we go on....Lots of OWS'ers insist that the occupation of Palestinian lands has nothing to do with the OWS Movement. This is strange considering the US gives Israel more than 3 billion in aid each year - couldn't we use this money at home being that the US is trying to dig itself out of a horrendous recession?

Also...Israel is not a democracy: 1) The "jewish state" has no constitution, no bill of rights and limited freedoms of speech. 2) In Israel only jews can own land. 3) On Israeli streets muslims and christians are openly mocked and discriminated against. 4) In Israel there is mandatory military service. 5) In Israel there are "jewish only" roads, housing units, schools, etc. 6) In Israel jews who marry non-jews are mistreated. 7) Then there is the occupation of palestinian lands. 8) Most jews that live in Israel have no bloodlines to the Middle East - meaning they are not semites, they are white folks with origins in communist russia (see Netanyahu) and Europe.

Right.. You have raised a valid point. Do you suggest anonymous use Mossad tactics, like using identities of Israelis to embark upon an extrajudicial policy of execution in other countries? You are already aboard that mob, Right?

They took it by force from the Canaanites in mass genocide of children, men, & women. Moses was a lot like Hitler, so one has to wonder if Hitler was a form of collective Jewish Karma. My point was 60 years was not long ago to get ousted from your land, so it obvious why Palestinians would want their land back. Imagine if Native Americans got their land back by force. Would Americans want their land back? These are tough questions without simple answers.

So, possibly the Canaanites would have some claim, but after 3,000 years and having had their asses kicked to lose it, I think the likelihood of being able to collect would be slim. It would seem too, by your own admission, that Palestinians have no claim to the land.

I think the bottom line is human beings are the worst species on the planet. There is no fixing the human species because we are all selfish delusional narcissistic jerks. The few that can overcome this are far & few between. I don't want to play the rock paper scissor game with you about this subject in some circular logic. I was only stating that I can see how 60 years is not that long ago for the Palestinians to remember where they were from.

So you have proof that those who invaded Palestine really are the children of their Jewish grandfathers over 3300 years ago?

No bastards in the family tree. Right?

I thought Jewish women cheated their husbands all the time.

Genuine birth certificates of those hundreds of generations would suffice to convince the UN and all peoples of the world that Palestine belongs to them Jews. Then it is legal to kick out the Palestinians and even kill them and their children if they fight back, calling them terrorists.

It was called Canaan for thousands of years, during the Bronze Age (& probably back into the Stone Age), before Israelite invaders renamed it Judea at the beginning of the Iron Age.

Semitic Canaanite Arabs were there long before the Israelites, & those Arabs were never either annihilated or expelled (even according to the Bible, which tells how the Israelites kept failing to obey God's commands).

Many modern-day Palestinians are the descendants of those Bronze Age Canaanite Arabs, whereas most modern-day Israelis are descendants of Khazars & not even Semites.

It's from your Bible, & by any rational standard of evidence it IS hearsay - just uncorroborated (& often ambiguous, inconsistent & even contradictory) self-serving oral traditions, myths & fantasies, from a variety of sources, that were only written down hundreds of years after they were first made up.

Your "timeline" is based only on Biblical sources, which, as I've already pointed out, are uncorroborated (& often ambiguous, inconsistent & even contradictory), self-serving, oral traditions (i.e. hearsay), myths & fantasies. There isn't even any archaeological evidence to support your timeline, even though Zionists have been feverishly searching for such evidence for decades.

In any case, your timeline contributes NOTHING towards proving (or even providing evidence to support) your assertion that "all jews are descendants of the jews of israel".

So the US doesn't have a military presence in several countries surrounding Iran? Iran isn't surrounded by US bases and ships?

Yes, and Israels denial eliminates whatever evidence led US intelligence to state that had done this.

Are you from Israel? The only other person I've ever seen troll this issue as horribly as you is. I read the Jerusalem Post sometimes. What they call deliberately unarmed peaceful protesters. "Suicide Protesters". Yeah, keep saying it'll be peace when the Muslims set down their weapons. That Israeli I mentioned also made the chilling statement, "There is no such thing as Palestinian land." That mindset has horrible repercussions for a people already dislocated in the formation of Israel.

Yes, the countries want the US to be there to help protect them from Iran.

Your stupid link to a story where Israel denies the accusation (aren;t we innocent until proven guilty?) is akin to posting a story about the acquittal of Lizzy Borden while complaining about how axe muderers get set free.

The Khazars were a powerful people who once ruled over portions of Russia and Eastern Europe. They (or at least many of their leaders), converted to Judaism and were eventually defeated and disappeared. Their descendants were either assimilated amongst the Jews or became Sabbath-keeping and other “divergent” Christians, many (if not most), of whom, migrated to the west and to North America. Other descendants of the Khazars may be scattered throughout the former area of the U.S.S.R. and in different parts of Europe.

The Russian-Jewish scholar, Abraham Harcavy (Vilna, 1867), believed that the Khazars had converted to Judaism in about 620 CE. Other authorities put this event more than a hundred years later. The conversion at first was more or less a secret and was confined to the king and his co-ruling associate prince and to the inner aristocracy. Later most of the Khazars-proper appear to have converted along with some of the Alans and some of the other subject peoples, most of whom however remained pagan, Christian, or Moslem. The conversion was also done in stages (Polak).

But, the question is...who are the original Jews, Israelites, Canaanites, etc.?

I believe a little bit of history is required here...particularly way before
1948 A.D. and even 8491 B.C.

It is with pride and greatness for all to state that the land belongs to the "alleged" Jews, but as we all know, all nations, all histories, and all cultures have been watered down.
This planet and the land thereof was inhabited by an original people...now what problem remains for everyone, is to identify who the "original" people were and still are...otherwise, everything everyone claims that belongs to them is "suspect"!! Many men try but none will tell the truth!!

Israel isnt being asked to give up ITS land. They are in direct contravention of the original UN mandate that created them and Palestine as two separate states. They are the ones strong arming Palestine and taking away the land given to them via UN mandate.

It seems hardly fair that Israel should be allowed to simply appropriate Palestinian land (as demarcated by UN mandate) in the first place.

Also... Have you tried admitting you are a homosexual in front of the Ultra Orthodox crowd in Israel?

Do you know that women have the least freedoms in Saudi Arabia (one of our closest allies?)

Not that I support Palestinian terror organizations, but Israel isn't exactly the good guy in this either.

Israeli soldiers have killed many hundreds of Palestinians for every Israeli even wounded by any kind of attack. They are also the only nation in the middle east with unclear weapons and will stop at nothing to preserve that status. Israel is by no means the underdog.

Jordan and Syria lost the land when they went to war with Israel against the mandate of the UN and soundly got their asses kicked. As the world works, Israel kept the land they won from the losers in the war. There is just about no more fair way a country can gain land.

As far as Israel killing Palestinians, Israel has killed in retaliation for Palestinian attacks against their people, and they have been quite restrained in their responses.

LoL... there have been multiple UN resolutions asking for the recognition of the Palestinian grievances. All of which have been shot down by the US veto. The US is the only one supporting Israel. Most of the rest of the world simply wants Israel to follow the same rules it expects everyone else to follow.

you responded to me and i cannot find it but boy are you off base. read "the fateful triangle" - educate yourself - read norman if you are able - Prof. Norman Finkelstein's book debunks several of the historical myths. Some of the these concern the origin of the state of Israel, whose most ignominious episodes were the ethnic cleansing and destruction of hundreds of Palestinian villages in 1948. Other myths concern the nature of Palestine before the arrival of Zionist settlers, which Zionists try to portray as “a land without a people.” To debunk these myths Finkelstein analyses in detail Benny Morris's Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem and Joan Peters's From Time Immemorial. In a few pages Finkelstein manages to prove that Peters is an intellectual fraud. One must admire his stamina for plowing through a mediocre text replete with distortions and fabrications. Most mortals would throw the book away after a few pages, but Finkelstein didn't stop until the last footnote - and there are 120 pages of these!

The history is there. You can try to remake it the way you want to believe, but what happened happened. The Brits gave the land to the Jewish state after WWII. It pissed the Arabs off and they fought and lost. Any bodies were the result of poor Arab military exploits.

no need to recount the history -until you read the book i doubt you will know it - just the mainstream myths norman talks about. and exactly who gave the land to the brits? oh i remember - this is part of it - "In 1919, Winston Churchill was enthusiastic about the prospects of “using poisoned gas against uncivilized tribes”--Kurds and Afghans--and authorized the RAF Middle East command to user chemical weapons “against recalcitrant Arabs as experiment,” dismissing objections by the India office as “unreasonable” and deploring the “squeamishness about the use of gas.” but what about the poor military exploits - just like those of the american indian - right - poor military exploits. i guess the same could be said of the nazi occupation of france etc - right - poor military exploits - should i go on?

Description:
This documentary defends Italians from a vicious and hypocritical Zionist-dominated media constantly associates Italians and Italian culture with organized crime when actually Italians have been a tiny fraction of the worldwide underworld of White slavery, drugs, loan-sharking, protection rackets, murder for hire, money-laundering and other kinds of criminal activity.

The World Champions of organized crime for hundreds of years have been not Italians but Jews and they have constituted the leading criminal element in many nations all over the world. But Jewish extremism and tribalism in the mass media has covered up their own role in organized crime while at the same time exaggerating the Italian role in it. It is typical of the Zionists to point the finger at other people for their own evils. This is true even in the United States.

The Jewish-dominated media has covered up the paramount Jewish role in organized crime while it has worked overtime to slander Italians and now “Russians” with the ethnic association of organized crime.

This documentary lays out the undeniable facts. The biggest gangster of the 20th century was not the Italian Al Capone, it was the very Jewish, and very Zionist Meyer Lansky. The most horrific crime organization of the 2oth Century was Murder, Inc. an overwhelming Jewish organization. And the quote, “Russian” Mafia is neither Russian nor Mafia, it is run by Jewish mobsters from Russia and Eastern Europe. This video will show how the Zionist media manipulates us and reveals their ultimate hypocrisy and the great threat of a worldwide network of Jewish organized crime aided by their incredible influence in media and government.

How many Jews Were Killed/Murdered
by Palestinians and Arabs, 1919 - 2009?
By DR.Rivka Shpak Lissak
How many Jews were killed/murdered by Palestinians?
1919 – 1920: 49 Jews were murdered in pogroms and some hundreds were wounded.
1929; 123 Jews were murdered in pogroms and about 350 were wounded.
1936- 1939: 400 Jews were murdered and hundreds were wounded.
1947 – 1949: 2,000 civilians were killed / murdered by Palestinians and 4,000 soldiers were killed during the war against 7 Arab armies that invaded Israel immediately after Israel was formally announced by Ben Gurion.
Palestinian terror in Israel, 1950- 1967:465 Jews were killed/murdered by Palestinian terrorists.
1967 – 1988: Palestinian terror in Israel and abroad: 144 Jews were killed/ murdered and many wounded.
First Intifada, 1988 – 1991: 84 Jews were murdered.
Second Intifada, 2001 – 2006: 1,000 Jews were murdered and 6,000 were wounded.
Since 2006:177 were murdered
The list does not include Jews murdered between those dates.
2001 – 2007: 5,676 Israeli civilians were wounded in terrorist attacks
4,442 civilians – not soldiers, were killed/ murdered by Palestinians.

How many Jews Were Killed in Wars against Israel initiated by Arab states
1948/9: 4,000 soldiers were killed and hundreds were wounded
1956:171 soldiers were killed and hundreds were wounded
1967:779 soldiers were killed and 2,593 were wounded
1971-3: The fighting on Suez Canal: 721 soldiers were killed, 705 were wounded.
1973:2,222 soldiers were killed and 5,596 were wounded
The total sum: 7,893 soldiers (mostly reserves) were killed and thousands were
wounded because Arabs, Palestinians included, were determined to destroy the Jewish state.
These numbers are not the official numbers.
The official number is more than 22,000. In short, this is not the full list.
Also, these numbers do not include the Lebanese wars.
Arab states and all Palestinian organizations, including the PA
deny the right of Jews for a state: PA and Arab leaders declared
during August – September 2010 they will never recognize Israel as a Jewish state.
All other Palestinian terrorist organizations are dedicated to destroy the Jewish state.
These statements are contrary to the decisions of the League of Nations (1920/1)
and the United Nations (1947), whose resolutions include recognition
of the right of Jews for a Jewish state..
The Real issue between Jews and Arabs and Palestinians is their refusal
to have a Jewish state in a region considered Arabic.
The real issue is not a Palestinian state besides Israel but
on the ruins of the Jewish state.
Fact:
The Palestinians had already rejected 6 opportunities to form a state besides Israel:
1937/7- proposal of the Peel Commission
1947 – UN resolution to form 2 states: a Jewish and an Arab state
1948 – 1967 – The West Bank and Gaza Strip were under
Egypt and Jordan occupation.
1967- Prime Minister Levi Eshkol proposed "Land for Peace."
The answer was the Hartum 3 Nos.
2000 – Camp David Summit. Arafat rejected the Clinton- Barak proposal
because it did not include settling the refugees in Israel and
because it included declaration of "end of conflict."
2009 – Abu Mazen did not gave any answer to Prime Minister Ehud Ulmert
proposal that he himself defined as even more generous that the 2000 proposal.
Before 1967 there was no occupation and the Arabs and Palestinians admitted
openly that their aim was the destruction of the Jewish state.
After 1967 they only changed their tactics.
They use occupation, which was the result of their attack on Israel,
to demonize and de- legitimize the very right of Jews for a state.
And, they still declare they will never agree to a Jewish state.

You seem to have a problem with Americans enjoying social benefits that people have in Israel, and you seem to want Americans to continue paying for the Israeli social welfare programs that are creating a no work, no service bizarre subculture over there.

Pseudo-Scientific Archaeology, aimed at legitimizing Zionism, while ignoring (& often even destroying) the vast amount of other, conflicting, archaeology. This is similar to the Nazis' efforts to prove their "Aryan" theories by pseudo-Archaeology;

Etcetera...

Just as Hitler did in "Mein Kampf", the Zionists have published their predatory, expansionist & genocidal plans for Empire.

Hitler could have been stopped in the 1920's - the Nazis could have been stopped in the 1930's - & tens of millions of lives could have been saved.

The Zionists have hundreds of Nuclear & Thermonuclear warheads, have repeatedly demonstrated their psychopathic tendencies, & must be stopped NOW, BEFORE tens or even hundreds of millions of people die!

Posted 23 hours ago on Feb. 28, 2012, 9:58 a.m. EST by SupportIsrael2 (0)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

"Jews are God's Chosen people ... YOU SHOULD SUPPORT JEWS BECAUSE WE ARE THE MASTER RACE DESTINED TO RULE THE WORLD AND ALL OF MANKIND."

Given that it's obvious that Zionists largely control the USA & the UK, & are well on their way to gaining control in the European Union as a whole, & given that Zionists have thousands of illegal Nuclear, Thermonuclear, Biological & Chemical WMDs, & a ideology that calls for genocide, it's crystal clear who the genocidal racists are in this world!

No, DUMMY, Judaism only dates back to Moses, about 1,200 BC - that's why Jews idolize Moses, as the founder of the religion. Have you even read your own Torah, moron? Or do you just follow the Talmud (which only dates back to the 7th century BC)?

Prior to Moses, the Hebrews followed the religion of Abraham, who's the common ancestor of both Hebrews & Arabs, & the common source of both Judaism & Islam..................schmuck!

This year , the Jewish year is 5772. moses did not " found Judaism. he was the instument through which god gave his people the 10 commandments. That is why the jews are called the chosen people, they were chosen by god to receive the 10 commandments.

"Mitzvot: At the heart of halakhah is the unchangeable 613 mitzvot that G-d gave to the Jewish people in the Torah (the first five books of the Bible). The word "mitzvah" means "commandment." In its strictest sense, it refers only to commandments instituted in the Torah; however, the word is commonly used in a more generic sense to include all of the laws, practices and customs of halakhah" http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/mitzvot.html

10 commandments - in 3 inconsistent versions (Ex.20, Ex.34 & Deut.5) - of which 8 (i.e. not the 1st (monotheistic) & 2nd (iconoclastic)) are in Chapter 125 of the Egyptian Book of the Dead, which is at least 1,500 years older than the Torah!

Each and everyone of you, us, them, they, we....are all part of humanity!!
Heaven help those who can't seem to get that through their thick skulls, because that is who we and what we should be worried about.

Sooner or later, you are going to have to rely on someone who doesn't look, think, act or even talk like you to help you survive!
Wake up before it is too late folks, the great divide no longer exists..it is only in your minds!!.

Its a family battle, between the decendants of Isaac and Ishmael. Remember the people of moses under Joshua (who were the forefathers of Israel killed nearly every man woman and child as they committed a genocide in every city they came to across a continent (from seashore to seashore) as recorded in the historical record called the bible. its really not our fight. Even God abandoned these people as recorded in there with a "letter of divorcement", The great massacre of the jews was further evidence that God forsake those people cause remember when God was with them, noone could conquer them. (again look at the story of joshua and david and goliath). (Alot like america today, I do happen to believe that God is with us,a nd that is why we are such a mighty nation, but like Israel, I believe our time is running out, and just as it is "taboo" to discuss things as they really are as it is now pollitically incorrect to include the "God of the living" and the activities of this land, since many have forsake him, soon he will forsake us and remove his covenant and blessing from us).

Even Christ taught, no one are his family except them that do his will, and Israel to this day does still reject him.

Let people know who is on the right side here. Dispel the misinformation that it is Israel who are the terrorists. Point out the fact that Israel was British territory when it was given statehood at the end of WWII and the Arabs refused to accept the Jewish state. It was Arabs who attacked and lost the land, not Israel who attacked to take the land.Let them know how Israel has tried again and again to make peace and the Arab world refuses to recognize Israel as a legitimate state.

It wasn't British territory, dummy, it was under a League of Nations / United Nations Mandate, administered by Britain - & Britain certainly didn't have the legal right to give Palestine away to the Zionists.

And of course the Arabs refused to accept the Jewish State - would you sit back while hundreds of thousands of Arab immigrants stole New England & declared it an Islamic Republic?

It was Zionist terrorist groups that attacked first, & started massacring & ethnically-cleansing Arabs, not Arabs who attacked first.

Finally, Israel has never made a realistic offer to the Palestinians that would allow them a viable state, & Israel is NOT a legitimate state, any more than Nazi Germany was a legitimate state (see my comment, above).

you are preaching to the choir. but strange enough liberals and radicals (like the occupiers) side with the Arabs, love the crazy muslims and palestinian terrorist. I just can't understand that, You'd think liberals or left leaning people would support Israel a democratic free country. But the left sees the U.S. and Israel as bad and the muslims as oppressed.