I notice now depending on the site you go on, listing your pronouns are becoming increasingly used more often even if people are binary or even cis. It's starting to get to the point where I'm wondering what's going through people's minds when I read a post like "Hi, i'm a cis woman! Please use the pronouns her!". I don't think is adds to trans visibility, it just sounds redundant and pointless or at the very least people are trying to bandwagon onto it to sound cool and progressive. Tell me your thoughts.

For me, the whole cis, non binary and pronoun nonsense was created by the trans community for the trans community to divide rather than bring together and their version of special snowflake

it was like we as an incredibly small community have decided on a term and you out there MUST use it or your transphobic

It was a bit like the term allosexual...a group trying to enforce a term on others that the others had no input in at all..or would they do so

I agree on the stupidity of it all .."hi I am a non binary cis and you should call me ze or blah blah blah" . I can assure most people, when people start saying that nonsense in real life...outside of the label required bubble world....by the time you have got to cis, most normal people have switched off...zzzzzzzzz

We have the same thing in asexuality, whether you choose the desire or lack of sexual attraction, both are 100%...every other labelled attached to asexuality is sexual and yes I would agree, it is the majority jumping on the minority latest hip bandwagon...I doubt we will ever be able to stop that as it happens in most walks of life but when it comes to asking others to believe in who and what we are...it can damage genuine things by the hangers on with non relating labels almost killing visibility...and what remains visible...is probably something that see's a lot of facepalming.

Imagine if you will an example of visibility..we have a triangle in the middle and on that triangle is a ruler balancing perfectly... then we start adding things

imagine then..on the left side we have hey hey look at me I and what I am is importanttttt !!!!!....on the opposite side, the right side you have , I hope they don't look at me it's embarassingggggg !!!!..so when it comes to visibility you want to be in the middle ..however..the more nonsense you add to that balance such as cis, binary, pronouns..the more the balance tips into the f*ck we are looking as stupid as we can be and the embarrasing side

People need to be more honest about how they are effecting visibility in the real world and the balance between acceptibility and stupidity.

Luminosity wrote:Do you think there's something wrong with being non-binary?

What...yes clearly I have a secret hatred for non binary folks when i'm criticizing binary identifying people who tell people their pronouns when its something non binary people struggle with for people to take them seriously and make it look like a joke or a fashion trend...

Interesting point and as a transgender person am glad to see it raised here. At the same time, i would also put the following down. For discussion. Yes, cisgender people saying cis and then also using phrases like "preferred" pronoun can be for most part a defeatist project. It is like how the word privilege gets thrown around, but in this case you are not even talking about your privilege, just a marker of it.But because you say 'weird stuff for binaries'...it might be useful to consider the following? just as cis and trans bodies are different, differences within the two also exists. So cis bodies on the sexuality and disability spectrums, cis bodies dealing with body dysmorphia, may also have their gender erased (Very Different from trans erasure). Same for cis bodies from marginalised races, castes and cultures. So our approach to pronouns will then have to be from a point of view that pronouns are one among the markers people use to claim their body and also to relate to the world --- it is not immediately reflective of their gender journeys? This is particularly also important when we see how binary trans bodies are seen as no different from cisgender bodies and here pronouns are insufficient, but very very relevant for the person --- especially also if they do not politically identify as trans. At the same time, spme trans identified people go through multiple pronouns in their life time as well. So what happens when we factor all this in, right??

Not sure if i would make a simple comparison between terms and usages in gender and (a)sexuality. Anyway, it has been collapsed too much into each other. And i would argue that it needs to be separated well...So wouldn't comment on that. But to this point "People need to be more honest about how they are effecting visibility in the real world and the balance between acceptibility and stupidity." my immediate reaction would be --- who is demanding this honesty? Because, if a person is being honest to self, and pursuing self-determination, they wouldn't be able to help being visible in some way...and it would be up to the real world to stop reducing those experiences into what is acceptable and what is not, right? But that could just be my immediate reaction...Dunno.

I don't understand, do you mean brains? Technically trans and cis people are biologically the same haha. Please explain.

So cis bodies on the sexuality and disability spectrums, cis bodies dealing with body dysmorphia, may also have their gender erased (Very Different from trans erasure). Same for cis bodies from marginalised races, castes and cultures. So our approach to pronouns will then have to be from a point of view that pronouns are one among the markers people use to claim their body and also to relate to the world --- it is not immediately reflective of their gender journeys? This is particularly also important when we see how binary trans bodies are seen as no different from cisgender bodies and here pronouns are insufficient, but very very relevant for the person --- especially also if they do not politically identify as trans. At the same time, spme trans identified people go through multiple pronouns in their life time as well. So what happens when we factor all this in, right

???? i'm so lost. You're complicating a simple thing where people list their pronouns as a way to be progressive. That's literally it. They're not doing it for a journey, or accepting their bodies or whatever, these people never questioned their pronouns to begin with, they're comfortable with their pronouns and their image (majority of them are cis anyway). I've met people like this, they do it because they feel pressured and they feel its a hip thing to do. I understand if you're concerned about your self image since you're going through self discovery and your pronouns don't match what you look like on the outside but i'm talking about people who literally a-okay with how people perceive them and do it anyway because everyone else is doing it

who is demanding this honesty? Because, if a person is being honest to self, and pursuing self-determination, they wouldn't be able to help being visible in some way...and it would be up to the real world to stop reducing those experiences into what is acceptable and what is not, right? But that could just be my immediate reaction...Dunno.

CatBunny wrote:I don't understand, do you mean brains? Technically trans and cis people are biologically the same haha. Please explain.

The difference between cisgender and transgender bodies (as a combination of mind and body, as in embodied being, perhaps?) is quite well documented. And it is not just a matter of brains, i guess. But simply put, if A's experience of the world as cisgender is better than B's experience of the world as transgender, it is because A's body is considered better, normal. B's is considered abnormal and even illegal. (I am not talking about equality, i am just talking about difference).

CatBunny wrote:???? i'm so lost. You're complicating a simple thing where people list their pronouns as a way to be progressive. That's literally it.

Apologies for the rant. As mentioned, i do agree with that. But just felt that it might be good to take off from there other directions. Otherwise it might just become about a buttonholed notion of what is the right/wrong way to talk about identities. Perhaps this was not the place. Again, apologies.

The difference between cisgender and transgender bodies (as a combination of mind and body, as in embodied being, perhaps?) is quite well documented. And it is not just a matter of brains, i guess. But simply put, if A's experience of the world as cisgender is better than B's experience of the world as transgender, it is because A's body is considered better, normal. B's is considered abnormal and even illegal. (I am not talking about equality, i am just talking about difference).

ah so you mean more of an experience between the disconnect between mind and body trans people feel with dysphoria and the full experience of it?

Apologies for the rant. As mentioned, i do agree with that. But just felt that it might be good to take off from there other directions. Otherwise it might just become about a buttonholed notion of what is the right/wrong way to talk about identities. Perhaps this was not the place. Again, apologies.

ah thats fine. I'd say its more of me griping then trying to get nitty gritty haha, I guess if this was more of a deeper discourse thing i'd include it as a separate analogue. Good to know your thoughts though.