One that is overwhelmed by others, sure. I can make 3 round trips in the car at 30mpg vs. 1 in the Jeep at 20, if it will make you happy.A transit van has much more cargo space than a Jeep Grand Cherokee. (Our company has a Jeep and a few vans) And I've seen countless Transits with trailers here in UK.

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A gas guzzler is a gas guzzler. You pay for the fuel consumed. That doesn't change nor can be excused regardless of any other costs.

Fosgate wrote:

Indeed. There are no free lunches. However, one can certainly pick the lesser of the combination of evils.

Or a better combinations of merits.

Fosgate wrote:

If you're suggesting that I can do what I do now and get better mileage doing it, spare me, I know. I'll gladly do so if you're willing to cough up the investment yielding no significant compromise on any other variables.

What makes you think you'd have to spend more money to get a more economical vehicle?

(Our company has a Jeep and a few vans) And I've seen countless Transits with trailers here in UK.

I've seen motorcycles with trailers, but that doesn't lighten my load enough such that I too could use one.

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Or a better combinations of merits.

With no knowledge of my financials or what I am hauling, you do seem to know a bit about what I should and shouldn't do. I am impressed.

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What makes you think you'd have to spend more money to get a more economical vehicle?

Tell you what. You show me a used vehicle, available in my area, which wouldn't suffer on reliability, utility, and get better mileage than the jeep for between $2,000 and $3,000. If you can do that, I'll tip my hat. Memphis, TN. Good luck. Oh yeah, make sure it fits in my garage.

With no knowledge of my financials or what I am hauling, you do seem to know a bit about what I should and shouldn't do. I am impressed.

All I'm suggesting is that you could obtain a vehicle with lower fuel consumption that is of at least equal utility and no greater cost.Vehicles in UK are much more expensive to buy in UK than in USA.But it didn't take me long to find a site with vehicles about five years old that would seem to match your requirements for around £2k which is about $3.2k at current exchange rates.So probably cheaper there.

Yes, there are V8s in this country. You might see from my avatar that I drove a V12 5.3 litre.Lovely it was. Fuel efficient it was not.

My current car has all the boyz toys - and voice activated almost everything.It's very much better equipped than my wee blue car was. And more practical.For sure, it lacks a bit on top speed but 135 mph is more than I'll ever need.And it routinely returns better than 60mpg.At above $10 a gallon here, fuel efficiency is something of a consideration.

Probably? I'm afraid that you're grossly underestimating load dimensions. Not even the diesel version of the Transit available in the UK stands a chance.

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But it didn't take me long to find a site with vehicles about five years old that would seem to match your requirements for around £2k which is about $3.2k at current exchange rates.So probably cheaper there.

What's the site? Are the vehicles close enough such that I wouldn't have to fly or make a significant road trip in order to purchase?

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Yes, there are V8s in this country. You might see from my avatar that I drove a V12 5.3 litre.Lovely it was. Fuel efficient it was not.

Indeed. Given your argument, this did throw me off a bit.

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My current car has all the boyz toys - and voice activated almost everything.

Wait a minute, you're hounding me over a 12 year old jeep while driving an obviously newer vehicle with such "necessities" as voice activated features? Really? My own personal vehicle is 10 years old itself and hasn't so much as cruise control. You're really barking up the wrong tree.

You're also letting those high UK petrol prices skew your perception of what is good and bad for the environment. If everyone drove used and sufficiently cared for their vehicles, manufacturing could be more than cut in half. Your new vehicle and those of folks here in the US represent the same thing--things we don't need.

My current car has all the boyz toys - and voice activated almost everything.It's very much better equipped than my wee blue car was. And more practical.For sure, it lacks a bit on top speed but 135 mph is more than I'll ever need.And it routinely returns better than 60mpg.At above $10 a gallon here, fuel efficiency is something of a consideration.

I have the same vehicle I bought new several years ago, but then again I do not drive that many miles. Both of the most recent two vehicles we have averaged about 6000 miles a year since we purchased them. The convertable I bought my wife a few years back finally went to out younger son when I looked at the mileage and realized the only miles put on it over a two year period were when I took it for oil change and inspection. I had trouble fitting into it and she did not like the way people ignored it and pretended it did not exist on the road with them. Since you looked out at the door panel of most vehicles it was a bit scary at times.

The odd thing is those older vehicles have voiced activated everything as well. My wife will say when she would like the AC or radio adjusted and it is adjusted. The navigation is voice activated as well, although many of the directions are "that place where we saw such and such" the navigation system generally works flawlessly. It also carries packages and pays for purchases when the destination is reached.

_________________With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none” Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."Albert Einstein

Same situation here. I don't put alot of miles on vehicles. Work is 3 miles away. I'd ride my bike more there's only about a 4 week window out of every year that I reasonably could. The winters and summers are just too extreme. The last new car I bought was probably the Jetta back in 97. That's the car we took to NC when I came to see you.

The Jeep doesn't have any automatic voice stuff, but it's pretty plush for being Laredo trim. Leather, premium stereo, power seats, V8 I think I mentioned, no 4WD though. That thing is an absolute dream on the highway. See now you got me talking about crap I don't need ('cept for the engine...stereo doesn't count 'cause I would have put that in myself anyway). Oh well, it can almost, just about, but not quite get 30mpg if I don't go over 60, probably about 28mpg...unloaded...tailgating a semi.

The 74 Superbeetle would have been the most economical car I've ever had. I'd get by on $5 worth of gas a month. The year was 1986. Got it up to 88mph once with the pedal to the floor going down a steep hill.

Same situation here. I don't put alot of miles on vehicles. Work is 3 miles away. I'd ride my bike more there's only about a 4 week window out of every year that I reasonably could. The winters and summers are just too extreme. The last new car I bought was probably the Jetta back in 97. That's the car we took to NC when I came to see you.

The Jeep doesn't have any automatic voice stuff, but it's pretty plush for being Laredo trim. Leather, premium stereo, power seats, V8 I think I mentioned, no 4WD though. That thing is an absolute dream on the highway. See now you got me talking about crap I don't need ('cept for the engine...stereo doesn't count 'cause I would have put that in myself anyway). Oh well, it can almost, just about, but not quite get 30mpg if I don't go over 60, probably about 28mpg...unloaded...tailgating a semi.

The 74 Superbeetle would have been the most economical car I've ever had. I'd get by on $5 worth of gas a month. The year was 1986. Got it up to 88mph once with the pedal to the floor going down a steep hill.

Dropped a Corvair engine and transaxle into a '69 Beetle back in '73 that thing would fly, but we had to disable two of the carbs to keep from tearing it apart. Dropped a fiberglass body onto a '72 that had been squashed a little too much on top, but left the running gear as it was. It would scoot too, but the gull wings pushed the button on my cap into my head.

_________________With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none” Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."Albert Einstein

Worst a friend of mine was ever beaten in a road race was by a girl in a Bug. Nothing special to see, not even white sidewall tires, but the front seats had been removed and the steering column hinged to allow entrance and exit into what used to be the back seat. The 289 engine they mounted under the trunk hood took up the space previously occupied by the driver. The only clue was the rearview mirror was now to the rear on the door. His Roadrunner 440 4bbl 4 speed cut out at 111 mph and she left us like we were sitting still. I had my Mach 1 to >130 (speedometer had the hash marks passed 120) with still room for the pedal to drop and I would have had trouble with that bug.

Of course in the mountains I got about 10 mpg out of the Mach. I could kick the 4 bbl in and the gas gauge would drop like it does sometimes going up steep inclines (as I was doing) but it stayed down even after I started down the other side.

_________________With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none” Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."Albert Einstein

A bug weighs between 1800 and 2000 lbs including a stock engine. So a bit more with the 289 but with phenominally more horses. That's probably better power to weight than a 300hp northstar V8 in a 2800 lb Fiero. My car weighs in at 2200 lbs. When I drop in the turbo, I should be able to hang with C5 corvettes.

Probably? I'm afraid that you're grossly underestimating load dimensions. Not even the diesel version of the Transit available in the UK stands a chance.

Fine. Post load dimensions and weights that yo tow behind your Jeep.

Fosgate wrote:

What's the site? Are the vehicles close enough such that I wouldn't have to fly or make a significant road trip in order to purchase?

I already made the point that I was quoting UK prices. I know that vehicle ownership in the US is lower than in UK. I made that point also.

Fosgate wrote:

Wait a minute, you're hounding me over a 12 year old jeep while driving an obviously newer vehicle with such "necessities" as voice activated features? Really? My own personal vehicle is 10 years old itself and hasn't so much as cruise control. You're really barking up the wrong tree.

I'm not suggesting that the all technology is a necessity. My point was that I can get all of that in a fairly ordinary car that is much more fuel efficient than the up-market wee blue car.

Fosgate wrote:

You're also letting those high UK petrol prices skew your perception of what is good and bad for the environment. If everyone drove used and sufficiently cared for their vehicles, manufacturing could be more than cut in half. Your new vehicle and those of folks here in the US represent the same thing--things we don't need.

Fair points. My current vehicle is quite new. I got it in January this year. It is just the updated model of the vehicle it replaced. My main reason for the choice was fuel economy.My 360 mile round trip today got 62.3 mpg.And the better part of three hours each way. Most of it motorway. Almost the hours of a wasted day.Some of the gadgets are useful.Cruise control I've had on all cars since 1986. I now find it more useful than ever. Speed cameras abound. I don't need to get caught so I set it to about 72mph. The national speed limit is 70mph but speedometers have n negative tolerance so that plus the camera tolerance makes 72 seem no risk.The satnav found the site which I had not visited in years and by a shorter route.And the hands free telephone allowed me to make and take calls legally and get some things done.

Most importantly, when I'm close to home and want a really cold beer....Tap a button on the steering wheel."What name or number would you like to call?""Home""Hi Mrs B. Can you stick a Belgian in the freezer please?""Already done."

Availability is key. If there was a Jeep with 300 horsepower in backwoods China for $400, so efficient that it made gas, it wouldn't make a hella difference to me.

But do you really need 300 bhp?My car, with just 148 bhp is rated to tow one and a half tons.

Fosgate wrote:

Alright, aside from fuel economy, at what cost to the environment? You're fixated on gas consumption and giving little to no consideration to development and manufacturing externalities.

Not really. You can have an older vehicle with lower fuel consumption.And most of the cars I've had have clocked up 100,000 miles before being changed.The swap isn't done on a whim to have the latest gadgets.And some of the gadgets are nothing more than a distraction."Driver temperature 19 degrees" I can give as a voice command. A few seconds later I get feedback and the setting changes on the digital display. I can just as easily tap the up or down button."CD on". "Radio off."Functions that I'll never use.If I want to listen to a CD of Silvan Zingg, I just tap CD.

There are a few practical features that ought to be useful.The rear pointing camera that deploys in reverse gear and the parking sensors.Nice but necessary?In forty some years of driving' I've managed without them.

No, I was simply giving an example. I don't have 300. Do you really need 148?

I suppose not but it is quite useful for overtaking on twisty rural roads with limited opportunities for getting past rather slow vehicles.

Fosgate wrote:

Do you actually tow 1.5 tons with it?

I could but I don't.Just making the point that it doesn't need a big lazy V8 to tow stuff. You can do that with a relatively efficient, relatively small, four pot lump.

For me, fuel economy is quite important. In the past few days I've driven over 800 miles, had some long days on site, and been under quite a bit of pressure.Helluva week. And much of it away from home. :(

Yesterday, done for the day and 150 miles from home.Tap the menu button, select home, and on my way.It also brings up the home phone number. Tap the menu button again with that selected and it calls home. Then I can let the missus know that I'm on my way and ETA.And I know that a cold beer, a hot dinner and, well ...etc will be there.Another two and a half hour drive.The satnav updates me not just with directions but remaining time and distance. Plus any traffic problems. And offers a detour if there are major problems.I can be listening to a CD and the RDS will kick in with local traffic news advising of congestion or delays.

For me, fuel economy is quite important. In the past few days I've driven over 800 miles, had some long days on site, and been under quite a bit of pressure.Helluva week. And much of it away from home. :(

Understood. Fuel economy just getting to and from work is top priority for me.

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It just works.

iPod, top down, after a couple of hours at highway speed, the car itself becomes more like a soft contact lens. You don't even know it's there. You literally feel like you're flying too low. Quite an awesome experience.