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Topic: Imagine if..... (Read 13676 times)

Imagine that one day the Pope proclaimed, we Catholics have been in error all along and we must return to the Unity of the Orthodox Church. Which of the following would have to change for Catholics, and how?1. The use of the Tridentine Liturgy2. The Use of statues3. The use of realistic religious art4. Papal Primacy5. Purgatory6. The Immaculate Conception7. Indulgences8. Private devotions such as the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Divine Mercy9. Transubstantiation10. The filioque and the theology it repreresents.11. Reliance on the theology of St. Thomas Aquinas12. Vernerations of post Schism western saints13. Fasts and Liturgical calander14. The teaching of the Beatific Vision15. Rejection of the essence/energies distinction.16. ETC, ETC, ETC, what whould change?

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

From my experience, I would say all but #12. At first I would expect that all Western saints would be excluded, but eventually we may add some to our canon. Not all Western saints would be venerated, of course, as we differ in our criteria for canonization, but some we would probably accept in time.

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"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens

1. The use of the Tridentine Liturgy Keep2. The Use of statues Keep3. The use of realistic religious art Keep4. Papal Primacy Primacy of honor and appellate jurisdiction is OK5. Purgatory No temporal guilt, replace with waiting chamber for heaven and hell concept6. The Immaculate Conception Out7. Indulgences Out8. Private devotions such as the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Divine Mercy Maybe9. Transubstantiation Keep10. The filioque and the theology it repreresents. Out11. Reliance on the theology of St. Thomas Aquinas Out12. Vernerations of post Schism western saints Depends on Saint13. Fasts and Liturgical calander What fasts? 14. The teaching of the Beatific Vision Out15. Rejection of the essence/energies distinction. Definitely out16. ETC, ETC, ETC, what whould change?[/quote]

IMO the Western Rite that ROCOR developed seems to be a fairly decent model for what the Catholics would need to be like in order to be considered Orthodox again.

Can you elaborate?

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Hmm.. What exactly is the difference between Purgatory and 'waiting chamber for heaven and hell concept"?

The waiting chamber may not require suffering as a temporal consequence of forgiven sins.

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Honestly, I think I would become Protestant if the Pope did that. . There are too many things about Eastern Orthodox Ecclesiology/theology that I think border on un-Christian.

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

On a serious note, I'm sure that -- even assuming such a thing were to happen -- there would be plenty of Catholic who would think madness or heresy. (Remember that the filioque was recited in the creed for a couple of centuries before it had papal approval. Also, I understand that some Catholics weren't too happy about the fact that Pope JPII would sometimes recite the creed in it's original form.)

With all due respect to you, prodromas, and to prayingserb, I would be less interested in hearing that than in hearing what other Catholics on this board (I'm think particularly of Athanasios and Joab Anias) think of Papists' most recent assertions.

Honestly, I think I would become Protestant if the Pope did that. . There are too many things about Eastern Orthodox Ecclesiology/theology that I think border on un-Christian.

For some time now, I've suspected you to be some kind of crypto-protestant. Now it seems that I was correct, except that "crypto" doesn't seem to be the right qualifier, seeing how open and out-of-the-closet you are about the whole thing.

I am not sure if we are allowed to post links but google "Eastern Orthodoxy Unveiled". You should be able to find an article in Christian Order by Larson that describes some of the things about Eastern Orthodoxy that concern me.

« Last Edit: February 05, 2008, 12:01:46 AM by Papist »

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

For some time now, I've suspected you to be some kind of crypto-protestant. Now it seems that I was correct, except that "crypto" doesn't seem to be the right qualifier, seeing how open and out-of-the-closet you are about the whole thing.

God bless,Peter.

LOL. Just about the silliest thing I have heard in years. If my friends heard you say this they might die of laughter. No, my reasoning is that I believe that Protestants have maintained some of the fundamental concepts of Christianity, such as the atoning sacrifice, that the Eastern Orthodox have lost. If the Catholic Church were ever to fall to Eastern Orthodoxy (which I don't believe it could) I would join an extremely high church Anglo-Catholic community or perhaps become a sedevacantist.

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

I am not sure if we are allowed to post links but google "Eastern Orthodoxy Unveiled". You should be able to find an article in Christian Order by Larson that describes some of the things about Eastern Orthodoxy that concern me.

Yes. In fact, that website would be rather amusing, except that I find it a little too close-to-home -- being a Catholic myself -- to hear such absurdities from people who call themselves "Catholic" as well.

Orthodox believe in Atoning Sacrifice very much. Are you making deliberate lie? What gave you the idea that Orthodox deny this? Have you ever read Orthodox Bible or services of Orthodox Church?

Lie? Excuse me? I have been told over and over again the Eastern Orthodox do NOT believe in the Atonement by Eastern Orthodox believers and have read as much all ovel the internet.

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Yes. In fact, that website would be rather amusing, except that I find it a little too close-to-home -- being a Catholic myself -- to hear such absurdities from people who call themselves "Catholic" as well.

Yeah, because if you don't believe in Eastern Orthodoxy, you must not be Catholic. That seems to be the Eastern Catholic position.

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Yes. In fact, that website would be rather amusing, except that I find it a little too close-to-home -- being a Catholic myself -- to hear such absurdities from people who call themselves "Catholic" as well.

Fr. Ambrose made mincemeat of Mr. Larson over on CAF in relation to this article. To bad the archives were lost in the Catholic book-burning of all things Orthodox on CAF, otherwise one could witness Mr. Larson's utter ineptness in defending his absurd claims.

« Last Edit: February 05, 2008, 12:16:37 PM by Heracleides »

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"And having found Heracleides there again, we instructed him to proclaim the Gospel of God..." ~Acts of Barnabas

Fr. Ambrose made mincemeat of Mr. Larson over on CAF in relation to this article. To bad the archives were lost in the Catholic book-burning of all things Orthodox on CAF, otherwise one could witness Mr. Larson's utter ineptness in defending his absurd claims.

Fr. Ambrose made mincemeat of Mr. Larson over on CAF in relation to this article. To bad the archives were lost in the Catholic book-burning of all things Orthodox on CAF, otherwise one could witness Mr. Larson's utter ineptness in defending his absurd claims.

I'm sorry I missed that!

One thing I'm curious about: how was Mr. Larson received by the CAF mods? Did they allow him to present his views as being "Catholic"?

Hank: Dale, sometimes I think you say things just to hear yourself talk. Dale: What do you want me to do, ignore myself?- from King of the Hill episode "Tankin' It To the Streets"

PJ, Sometimes I think you say you are Catholic just so you can have the title.

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

PJ, Sometimes I think you say you are Catholic just so you can have the title.

I'm sure you meant that to be an insult; but given your past statements, your support for people like James Larson, and the fact that you (somehow) think of yourself as "Catholic", I actually find it a bit comforting that don't you think of me as being "Catholic" too.

But more importantly, I really don't have much desire to keep having silly arguments with either you or ozgeorge. (Maybe I'll just refrain from posting for the rest of the day -- I think lubeltri said he's coming back tomorrow.)

"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

I have heard from the resident Fr. Ambrose himself that the Eastern Orthodox do not believe in the Atonement. Ask him.

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Please where on the internet you read this lie? What "Eastern Orthodox" are these who told you that (excuse me if I doubt that they are neither Eastern or Orthodox)?

A search of the archives could probably turn up dozens of hits on this website alone. I've always heard that the predominate Orthodox attitude towards the classic Anselmian atonement was one of at the very least suspicion.

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"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

I have heard from the resident Fr. Ambrose himself that the Eastern Orthodox do not believe in the Atonement. Ask him.

The Priest you speak of also thinks contraception is okay so I would not be placing all my trust in him and will not be asking him any questions about Holy Orthodoxy.

The Council of Constantinople of 1156 gives to damnation those who do not believe in the Atonement. The Bible speaks of Atonement. So you are going to take "resident Fr Ambrose" above Bible and the Sobornost of the Church as what the Orthodox Faith is?