The unconscionable not-guilty verdict in the George Zimmerman murder trial in Florida speaks volumes about this countryâ€™s cultural acceptance of using a gun in situation that did not require one. Zimmerman chose to profile and stalk Trayvon Martin because Trayvon was a black male. Had Zimmerman simply identified himself as a neighborhood watch guy and asked Trayvon where he lived, Trayvon would still be alive.

Justice was not served by this verdict. Justice was not even brought to the table. Perhaps Zimmerman will be charged for civil rights violations, as he deserves to be, and meet a different kind of verdict in court, one that will register the evil of his intention to profile young black men who were simply walking home through his neighborhood and minding their own business.

Susan Altenhofen, Fort Collins

This letter was published in the July 21 edition.

What a shame that the media and others tried this case before the public prior to the trial and turned it into a racial issue. I watched a majority of the trial on cable and there is no way that the prosecution had a viable case. The facts were not there â€” especially the fact that George Zimmerman had profiled and performed a hate crime.

Most certainly the death of Trayvon Martin was a tragedy beyond imagination, and Zimmerman made mistakes, but the testimony suggested that Martin was on top when Zimmerman fired the fatal shot.

Donâ€™t we have enough problems in this country without inflaming racial division? Please, letâ€™s respect the facts, the juryâ€™s decision, and the law. Also, what about all the black-on-black crimes (rampant in Chicago) about which there is no media coverage?

Kay Robbins, Denver

This letter was published in the July 21 edition.

There is our legal system, and then there is justice. While many can argue that the verdict returned by the jury in the Zimmerman trial was â€ślegally correct,â€ť no one can argue that it was â€śjust.â€ť Had Trayvon Martin not been black, had George Zimmerman not been carrying a gun, and had Zimmerman followed the very explicit instructions given him not to pursue Trayvon, there is little doubt that Trayvon would still be alive today.

Each one of us needs to look around us and decide what we can do to make this a more just society for all of our citizens to live in.

Lynne Montague-Clouse, Denver

This letter was published in the July 21 edition.

The defense lawyersâ€™ reaction after the Zimmerman verdict lacked the most basic decency and human dignity. There was not a word of acknowledgment that a boy on his way home from the store had been killed by their client. A son had been killed, a brother, a friend. All their clever maneuvering and manipulating in the courtroom does not change that. All their race-baiting and blame-the-victim-for-his-own-death strategies do not change that. They looked like cats that got the cream instead of showing appropriate concern that for whatever reason (and I do not buy the self-defense argument for a second), their client took a human life. They can support their client and still do the right thing.

Rashna B. Singh, Colorado Springs

This letter was published in the July 21 edition.

Even if you disagree with the acquittal of George Zimmerman, you must admire the jurorsâ€™ courage. They were under absolutely immense pressure to convict. However, they were in the courtroom and heard all the testimony and observed all the evidence. All any of us outside the courtroom knew was what the media told us.

The due process guarantees of the Fifth and Sixth Amendments protect everyone, regardless of the severity of the charges, the weight of public opinion against the defendant or any external political or social circumstances. They protect George Zimmerman and they protect terror suspects. And if they donâ€™t protect everyone equally, they donâ€™t protect you or me.

Among the vilest aspects of American history is the historic inability of ethnic minorities to get a fair trial. Everyone deserves due process regardless of their ethnicity as well as the ethnicity of those they are accused of harming.

Douglas F. Newman, Aurora

This letter was published in the July 21 edition.

The Zimmerman trial is over. It may not be the outcome some expected, but it was a fair hearing before a jury that was agreed upon by both sides. Now let us move on. Any further pursuit of this case will only divide a divided nation that much more.

Calvin Lapuyade, Lone Tree

This letter was published in the July 21 edition.

The Supreme Court made a big piece of the 1965 Voter Rights Act null and void, saying the country has changed. Now we have a not-guilty verdict in the Trayvon Martin case. It seems to me that the life of a black man is still not worth much in this country.

Laszlo F. Soos, Littleton

This letter was published in the July 21 edition.

This case and verdict werenâ€™t about revenge but about justice â€” which was served by a jury of our peers, the way it is intended in our democracy. The system finally worked as it should.

Verlyn Regehr, Denver

This letter was published in the July 21 edition.

For information on how to send a letter to the editor, click here. Follow eLetters on Twitter to receive updates about new letters to the editor when they’re posted.

All these comments that Zimmerman was actually “guilty” (of what?) and should have been convicted baffles me. How is it that the person who INITIATED the first violent act in this chance-meeting is considered as having been exonerated of his responsibility to act like a civil human being simply because he was probably “profiled”. What does profiling have to do WITH ANYTHING on this matter? You don’t have a right to start a fist-fight simply because you’re “offended” that someone dares to inquire about your business.

Lil’ Tray-tray should have thought twice about starting a fist-fight with a complete stranger. I’m not glad he’s dead, but I don’t feel sorry for him.

peterpi

Zimmerman started the whole interaction. Zimmerman should never have gotten out of that car. The moment he did, he cased being an observer, which is what he was supposed to be under a “neighborhood watch”-style protocol: Observe, report, be available as a witness..
And, Zimmerman had an ace in the hole, didn’t he? He had his gun. No matter what Zimmerman did, he had his gun. He had observed Martin long enough to know Martin probably did not. So, Zimmerman could push to the max, because no matter what happened, he had heat, he had protection, he had insurance.
Martin had every right to be there. There is no law that says you have to get from point A to point B in an allotted amount of time. Maybe Martin was defending himself. Maybe Martin was “standing his ground”. We’ll never know, of course. Martin’s dead.

StillUndecided

Why on earth was GZ restricted to his car in the neighborhood where he lived while Martin was free to roam as he pleased? GZ also had every right to be there and walk wherever he pleased. Also, observing someone in a public area is not against the law.
Do you know what is against the law? Attacking another person and attempting to split their skull by smashing their head on the cement. That is what the jury that heard all the testimony appears to have concluded transpired that night. All of the hand wringing, teeth gnashing and race-based demonstrations in the world is not going to change that.
History will probably look at the events that have taken place post GZ trial with shame. Not because of the verdict but because of the lynch mob so blinded by racism.

toohip

Irrational argument. peter isn’t suggesting GZ was restricted to remain in the car or didn’t have the right to walk the neighborhood, he was point out the typical conduct of both men, and that GZ had not need to get out of the car as advised by police. Your denial that was about race and windmill of “blinded by racism” while some dismiss as ignorant by experience and belief, becomes a little more obvious if we reverse the skin color of the two. Or what if Martin was of legal age, conceal-carrying and shot Martin under the SYG statute? How would your reaction to letter of the law or “it’s not about race” be then? Or would your reaction be similar to the woman in Florida who fired into the ceiling to scare off her abuse husband, and got 20 years. She was black, but I’m sure you don’t believe race played into our justice system?

Clastics

The police would also suggest that I not walk in Central Park at night, follow a drunk driver after calling the hotline, or (if I were a female, particularly) get drunk in an unfamilliar club/area. Me not follwing said advice does not mean I am breaking laws (even if a confrontation were to take place with adverse results for the other party).

holyreality

Indeed,
An African immigrant FOLLOWED DPD dispatcher instructions and returned to Denver from Federal Heights only to be shot dead by the criminal he called about in the first place.

If Zimmerman is continuing his Barney Fife patrol, he may meet someone tougher than Travon.

thor

Maybe Martin was “standing his ground.” That’s a great point. I never thought of that. Unfortunately, he stood his ground, and was pummeling GZ, when the person with a superior weapon, fired back. Thanks for bringing clarity to this issue. I apologize for calling you a liberal hack.

toohip

Oh, wow! You had me at “great point. . never thought of that.” Then you gravitate to the gun-right argument (and you claim you don’t own guns? wannabe?) that bringing a gun to a fist fight is always fair because guns should be respected and idolized. You’re going to have to try harder on this “clarity” thor!

thor

WOW! I told you I own a muzzle loader. Wannabe? Odd comment among your other odd comments. Now, can you, somehow, relate anything you wrote after “Then you gravitate…” to anything I wrote.

toohip

The key to GZ’s bravery and machismo was that ace in the hole concealed carry, otherwise I doubt if he would of stalked a much taller black man. It was more than “insurance” against a “bad guy with a gun,” but he was also “armed” with the obvious knowledge of the STG law that said he could use that firearm even if the physical threat he got to identify wasn’t armed, and he was losing the fight. Apparently the SYG only involves the use of deadly force with a firearm, because the SYG-proponents don’t seem to recognize TM’s reaction and application of SYG reacting to what he viewed as a physical threat to TM (more so if he knew he was armed), but little did he know GZ brought a gun to a fist fight.

thor

Does it matter to you that blacks in Florida have benefited from the Stand Your Ground law? I thought not.

Guest

“Lil’ Tray-tray should have thought twice about starting a fist-fight with a complete stranger. I’m not glad he’s dead, but I don’t feel sorry for him.”

Nice ending to a simply stupid post. No other way to put it. But Zimmerman tried to play a tough guy and Trayvon cleaned his clock! And you really think Zimmerman, a wacko, should be back on the streets with a gun? You’re a wacko to believe Zimmerman had no responsibility as the “adult” and got his *ss kicked by a kid!

StillUndecided

A kid?!?! Martin was a street-wise athlete with martial arts training who had already had multiple run-ins with the law prior to reaching legal adulthood. Chronological age sometimes takes a back seat to life experience.

Guest

Yes, a kid. He was only 17. Zimmerman was 28. And you all conveniently absolve him of any responsibility for initiating the whole incident. Please inform us what Trayvon did to warrant his being followed?? Other than wearing a hoodie and being black??

And you all conveniently leave out Zimmerman’s arrests, and he was still able to carry a gun:

In 2005, Zimmerman, then 20, was arrested and charged with â€śresisting
officer with violenceâ€ť and â€śbattery of law enforcement officer,â€ť both which are
third-degree felonies. The charge was reduced to â€śresisting officer without
violenceâ€ť and then waived when he entered an alcohol education program.
Contemporaneous accounts indicate he shoved an officer who was questioning a
friend for alleged underage drinking at an Orange County bar.

In August 2005, Zimmermanâ€™s ex-fiancee, Veronica Zuazo, filed a civil motion
for a restraining order alleging domestic violence. Zimmerman counterfiled for a
restraining order against Zuazo. The competing claims were resolved with both
restraining orders being granted.

peterpi

They love detailing every infraction of Martin, while ignoring Zimmerman’s.
They love detailing Martin’s description of Zimmerman as a “crazy a– cracka”, but ignore Zimmerman’s comments about “a–holes, f—in’ punks. They get away with everything.”
They are determined to defend Zimmerman’s right to defend himself, but ignore Martin’s right to defend himself.
But, I forget: Zimmerman had a gun. Zimmerman had a concealed-carry permit. Therefore, Zimmerman is a man of justice and must never be seen otherwise.

guest

Hardly. The Judge wouldn’t let any of the evidence showing that if Zimmerman was a cop wannabe, Martin was a thug wannabee.

Guest

What evidence that Trayvon was a “thug wannabe”?
Suspended from school 3 times, caught with a pipe and a little pot, and………..what else??? Any arrests???? Any violence to a cop like Zimmerman? Any restraining orders like Zimmerman? Keep showing your ignorance.

anonymouse

Guest: Unfortunately several of Martin’s criminal skirmishes were couched as “school violations”. Had Martin been charged with assault when he sucker punched a bus driver, he might have been incarcerated and not wandering around an unfamiliar neighborhood. Don’t lose sight of why he was in that gated community to begin with: suspension from school and a mother who took the easy way out because “she couldn’t handle him”. Ping pong parenting never works out well for the kid who is the ball.

Guest

Your proof he “sucker punched a bus driver” is……what?
And I guess we should lock up every teenager who’s ever been “suspended” as a teen? Or at least villify them, even after they’re dead? Pathetic.
And “wandering around an unfamiliar neighborhood” is your proof of what??? And how do you know he was “wandering around” and that the neighborhood was “unfamiliar”…..to whom??

And you’re judging the parenting is just another desperate attempt to justify a wrong. You’ve sunk to the bottom…..I think…

guest

They weren’t allowed to present texts in which Martin bragged to a cousin that he had sucker punched a bus driver. Supposedly that is why is mother sent him to his father since she couldn’t handle him. Not sure if it is true, but Trayvon said he did it.

Guest

So no report from the school, no charges, no nothing….just a kid “bragging” to his cousin via text? Weak. No wonder it wasn’t allowed.

gustifer

You keep asking for proof, but you sure as hell don’t want to believe it when presented. You are nothing but a Al Sharpton mannabe. He is a complete moron just like you are. You refuse to see the facts of blacks killing blacks all over this country along with them killing innocent women and children, killing whites, killing Hispanics. Try watching the TV shows COPS and First 48 and you will see that 95% of those out on those shows committing the crimes are black thugs, who care about no one but themselves and if they had half a brain, they would just go ahead and save society money and more deaths by putting a bullet in their own heads. I am getting so sick of hearing about POOR Trayvon, who if he went straight home, instead of doubling back and sucker punching Zimmerman trying to act like the thug he was, would have been alive today, to attempt to assault or kill someone else. So get off of your trayvon high horse!!!!!!!!!!

Guest

Well this psycho post is proof you’re a racist and probably off your meds! That I believe!!

toohip

oh, then well, heck, he “deserved” to be shot and killed now!
/sar/

guest

At least he had two parents in his life. I think a bigger problem is that nearly 70% of black kids are born to one parent. The males particularly suffer as they have no male role model to emulate. The left keeps saying this was about white and black. It’s really about the destruction of the black family.

toohip

lower-case “guest” will point to the photos of Martin with a gun (probably “illegal!”), pot, giving the finger, looking like a gansta’ and other “typical gang” references. . which many white kids do as well. This leads the familiar counter-talking points from the right we often hear about their feigned concern for the young black men killed in Chicago – which is a disguised suggestion that all young black men are wannabe gang bangers. Or the familar reference to the two black kids who shot and killed a child in a stroller in front of their mom for not giving them money as stereotypical of “black on white crime.” It’s hard to get inside the mind of people like (lower-case) guest and alan, but when you do, it’s polarized.

thor

If a white kid dressed and acted like Martin and then started beating on Zimmerman, I bet Zimmerman would have defended himself just the same and the result, including the verdict, would be the same.

Guest

If it would’ve been a white kid (now it’s okay to say kid?), Zimmerman wouldn’t have thought of him as “suspicious” and not followed him and nothing more would’ve happened!

thor

You’re right, I shouldn’t have used “kid” just because toohip did. Am I, then, to assume that you also think Trayvon would have been insulted by being referred to as a “kid.”

Guest

Good that you agree Zimmerman wouldn’t have followed the white kid.

thor

…unless the white(kid) teenager was wandering about like Trayvon was.

Guest

And what was the evidence about Trayvon “wandering about”? What exactly was he doing, according to the evidence? What exactly was the evidence to warrant suspicion? I’ve asked many times and still haven’t gotten an answer, because there isn’t one!

thor

“Looking for answers in all the wrong places…”

Guest

Yup, asking you for an answer is the “wrong place”…cause you never do!

thor

But gustifier did.

gustifer

Zimmerman said that TM was wandering around looking into homes, looked like he was on drugs and looked suspicious. Which gives him the right to suspect something since a lot of crimes were occurring in the neighborhood. As far as everyone saying Zimmerman was not to follow TM, does not indicate that Z was in his vehicle at the time when told that. Everyone seems to speculate about that key issue. I myself was under the impression that Z was already out of his vehicle. I don’t remember that coming out in the trial. I myself felt that charges should have never been filed with the evidence they had. If it weren’t for IDIOT”S Sharpton, Jackson and whoever else those two clowns could round up from the media, to start a racial war, then I still feel that the DA didn’t really want to file charges. The prosecutions heart wasn’t in the trial from the time the shooting happened. Sharpton won’t let this rest and neither will his no brain followers. I hate to say it, but because of that tribe of race baiters, innocent people will be killed on both sides of this issue. Sharpton, and his clan will then go on TV and say that is the price everyone pays for freedom. What a stupid A$$ he is.

Guest

Besides being a racist, you’re an idiot and a liar! Who said Trayvon was “looking into homes”? And Zimmerman could tell “he was on drugs and looked suspicious” on a dark rainy night from a distance? You are a totally racist idiot!!! No amount of meds in the world could help you!

gustifer

You go ahead and defend the guy who committed the crime, which was TM. TM assaulted Z first, Z assaulted TM last, because he was in fear for his life and the key word in this sentence is FEAR. If you weren’t so closed minded, and if you could see past your racist self and realize what was said in court. They said that Z started following TM because he looked suspicious and he looked like he was on drugs and he was looking into homes. Now what part of that don’t you understand. I didn’t make this $hit up. Now come back with something else that will make you look like the person that is off of their meds… MORONS!!!!!!!!!!!

Guest

Z said everything you write, nobody else. And you believe him because you want to. But another psycho post from an idiot who has no brain!

gustifer

Were you born close minded and stupid or did someone like Sharpton weld your mind shut for you? The stupid part I understand, you have a lack of education…Now go play in traffic!!

toohip

Maybe because in our court system you’re “supposed” to be judged on the evidence of the case, not who/what you were before? Let’s pretend the judge let everything we the public have heard or read into the trial. Same outcome?

thor

Yes, yes yes, yes, yes!!!!!!!!!! Wow, a break through. Congrats!!!!!!

guest

Come on!1 Judge someone in our court system based on the evidence of the case? What kind of a radical are you;)

thor

Someone who says that opinion is fine on this blog, but evidence won the day in the courthouse in Florida.

toohip

Well naturally this response is biased. Let’s remind you that GZ was no saint. Travons run-ins with the law are minor compared to GZ, and Travon was a teenager? A jury would consider. The fact GZ interferred with a police officer, is pretty serious considering is police-wannabe efforts. Further the allegation of sexual misconduct on a family member, though just an allegation would hang heavy on GZ. If the public is affected by this info – your ilk that TM smoked grass, hit a school bus driver, took gangsta pics – our ilk, GZ ‘s criminal record, sexual misconduct accusation, etc. I think this weighs in favor of Travon. People tend to forgive and excuse teens, especially black teens emulating gansta.

alan9074

AGAIN, could we invoke some logic into this? Only the most stupid person in the world with a conceal-carry permit would recklessly put himself in a situation where he has to kill someone. Zimmerman made an assumption that Lil’ Tray-tray wasn’t going to jump and sucker-punch him and beat him within fear of his life. But now all of a sudden this is all Zimmerman’s fault because he happened to have a means to protect himself? I don’t understand your logic.

Guest

“Only the most stupid person in the world with a conceal-carry permit would recklessly put himself in a situation”

You finally acknowledge what Zimmerman is! Only you left out “wacko”.

alan9074

Steve? Have you taken a conceal-carry class and attained a permit? Every state has extremely strong and specific laws pertaining the use of concealed firearms. These laws are given much attention and a lot of time is spent discussing them in a typical conceal-carry class. The reason that they do this is to stress that the legal ramifications and stress involved whenever killing someone, even in legitimate self-defense, is NOT fun to say the least. Zimmerman is clearly not a stupid man, and I’m sure these consequences were never lost on him when he stepped out of his car. It was perfectly reasonable for Zimmerman to assume that he wasn’t about to enter a life and death situation. As far as “crazy” goes, how about you Steve? Do you think Zimmerman should have suffered great bodily injury or death at the hands of Lil’ Tray-tray?

Guest

Who the hell is Steve??? Talk about crazy, you don’t even know who you’re responding to! And this is really stupid to think that everyone who has a ccw is responsible. Majority are. But how did this violent cop wannabe get one?

guest

It appears Disqus is making steve R show up for a lot of different people. It shows you as Steve R.

peterpi

Disqus has done this to me numerous times, with Steve, TomFromTheNews, DR, etc.

thor

If you aren’t Steve, then who are you?

toohip

inquiring minds. . . .
We’re all here on board with anyone called Guest/guest. . .being too anonymous (without the “e”)
Here’s an incentive for Guest. . when you check who voted thumbs up for one of the usual suspects it says x number of “Guest votes.”

toohip

“Every state has extremely strong and specific laws pertaining the use of concealed firearms.”

Ohio cancelled a law for a refresher test for re-issue of the permit as “over regulation.

Kansas allows its permit holders to drink while carrying a concealed weapon, so long as they are not legally intoxicated, under the stateâ€™s Personal and Family Protection Act, enacted in 2006.

Since Nov. 1, a sweeping new Wisconsin concealed carry law allows weapons on parts of college campuses and in government buildings.

Utah amended its concealed-carry laws in 2003 to clarify that permit holders may bring their guns into public schools.

Since 2009, Virginia has allowed applicants to satisfy a training and safety requirement under the law by completing an online test.

Arizona decided to allow citizens to carry concealed weapons without any permit at all, declaring that the right to do so cannot be limited under the stateâ€™s constitution. Three other states now have similar laws.

holyreality

Good point,
I believe Florida’s CW permit process is more of a rubberstamp than other more restrictive states, but I have not looked into it. Please do enlighten me if I’m wrong.

Uniform(National) standards must be in place. In Colorado, your Sheriff could be a goodbuddy, passing permits out every bubba he knows, or a total P I T A forcing every applicant to take a thorough CW class, that is up to the local sheriff.

If Zimmerman was not such a petty tyrant Barney Fife wannabe, he wouldn’t have picked a fight with a 17 year old boy that he lost.

thor

Even a wacko has a right to defend himself.

toohip

but the righteous don’t?

peterpi

Because Zimmerman had a gun, he pushed further than common sense would have indicated he should have.

alan9074

Peterpi, you may well be right, but that doesn’t matter if he didn’t initiate violence and had a justifiable reason to inquire the nature of Martin’s business that night.

eddie47

Zimmerman never identified himself or what his business was in stalking Martin. What would you do if a stranger with a gun came at you? Trayvon felt fear of being mugged himself so he reacted to that threat. Fear is a great motivator in whether you act or not.

alan9074

He didn’t approach him pointing his gun at him, nor did he even make it visible. Or, are you suggesting that’s what happened?

toohip

I guess “hiding” your gun (required by law here) is more convenient, and why TM felt he was getting into a fight with an unarmed man, but as thor points out you always bring a “superior weapon” when you’re going to create a confrontation. .can never be too safe than sorry!

toohip

apparently so is a gun a great motivator of confronting a threat, but the standard NRA answer to your question would be to arm yourself.

holyreality

Every good CCW class instructs to avoid confrontation if possible.

No responsible carrier I know would go beyond minding their own business. If they witness a possible crime, their responsibility is to de-esclalate the situation.

Cowboy wannabes are filtered out, while real cowboys know better.

toohip

violence, confrontation, etc. never ends well when you include the element of a gun. We know you “can” be beat to death or die from a fight, and yes, please mention all the other inanimate objects that can also kill. But a gun isn’t just “an edge” nor compensation for a small p-nis.

toohip

alan: “could we invoke some logic into this?

alan’s logic: “Lil’ Tray-tray should have thought twice about starting a fist-fight with a complete stranger. I’m not glad he’s dead, but I don’t feel sorry for him.”

conservative logic. . .the ultimate oxymoron

alan9074

Ok, so he SHOULDN’T have thought twice about starting a physical fight with Zimmerman? He was perfectly entitled to do what he did? Is that what you’re alluding to?

StillUndecided

I hardly see any type of comparison between Martin’s direct racial slur and the generic terms that GZ used to describe anyone involved in criminal activity.

What exactly was Martin defending himself against? Someone following and watching him? There is no evidence that GZ harmed Martin in any way prior to Martin attacking him. Does that mean that any person anywhere has a right to beat half to death another person if they catch them observing them in a public area?

Guest

What “criminal activity” was Trayvon doing? I’m waiting….

He was on the defensive because a big burly man (?) was following him…..yes….I would be defensive too. Wouldn’t you??
“beat half to death”…..really?? Adding drama to try and justify all this?? Yes. Zimmerman was up and walking around, talking to police in his “beat half to death” state. You’re ignorance is showing.

StillUndecided

Listen to or read transcriptions of the 911 call. Don’t listen to the edited versions the media has presented. That is what I meant by criminal activity. Martin was acting suspicious by walking around in the rain looking at the houses. Given the recent criminal activity in the area, GZ thought that he was casing the houses. He called 911 to report it and continued to keep an eye on Martin. Martin didn’t like being watched so he attacked GZ.
Being defensive does not give you the right to attack someone. Why didn’t Martin call the police if he was afraid of the “big burly man” following him? Martin had to prove that he was the “Big Man” and it cost him his life.

toohip

Still’s definition of being “beaten half to death” :
a “1 centimeter” and 0.5 centimeter cut on the back of the head, a bloodied nose.
OK, close enough, you can shoot now.

StillUndecided

I don’t care if the cut was 1cm, .5cm or just a tiny scrape on his pinky finger. Martin attacked him. Martin started this whole thing and the jury found that GZ was justified in defending himself. That is all there is to it.

thor

Dumb.

toohip

“they” can’t see the difference because of the forest for the trees phenom. Not suggesting they use this same racist or foul comments, but they subtly use the same expressions and deny it’s racist or hateful.
“they” also see “conceal carry permits” “legally owned firearms” and “reasonable gun owners” as the bastion of security in this country. Forgetting most of the mass shooters and most murders fall under same definition. . . until some quirky of evil turns them into the “the bad guy with a gun.”

alan9074

Zimmerman didn’t cooperate with police in his past so this means that Lil’ Tray-tray can beat the heck out of him and inflict great injury? Your logic is sorely lacking.

Guest

Just because Zimmerman couldn’t handle what he thought was an easy mark, but ended getting his *ss kicked by a kid, shows you’re lacking in a lot of things, to release a wacko back on the streets with a gun!!

guest

You obviously don’t need facts. I would actually say that facts are you enemy when you can make all kinds of unsubstantiated charges. I know that appears to be much more fun for you.

Zimmerman didn’t start anything–Martin did.

Guest

Zimmerman started the whole thing by claiming Trayvon was “suspicious”. But nothing more than being black and a hoodie is shown. But keep sinking.

toohip

Of all the “what if” scenarios that suggest might have saved Martin’s life, the majority fall on Zimmerman. But let’s not forget the “what if” . . if Martin had gone directly/run straight home, as a proper suspicious black should be doing as in the eyes of juror B37, the usual suspects here, and other race-naive white people.

I think Zimmerman NOW is going to need that gun! Now here’s a justification of a conceal carry permit! When a large majority of the population hate you for your killing of a 17 year old.

thor

Why do people like you insist on using “kid” when describing Trayvon? He would be insulted by that inference. You obviously never worked with teenagers or you wouldn’t use “kid” to describe one.

Guest

Dumb!

thor

I know. I shouldn’t have to explain something so apparent. Thank you.

toohip

You’re right, thor. We can simply “read” your mind. Why speak and remove any hope you’re not dumbing down this issue.

eddie47

Few 17 year olds are fully mature enough to be called an adult. They also can’t vote or legally drink so basically they are still KIDS

thor

Tell that to a 17 year old. Why you are technically correct that they can’t vote or drink. But, like I wrote, you DO NOT understand a 17 year old or you wouldn’t refer to one as a kid.

toohip

but ironically we can charge them, incarcerate, and execute them as adults as well.

toohip

thor’s attempt to defend Travon Martin – that he would be offended for calling him “kid.” But no effort to defend his right to not be shot and killed? Thanks for this “I have a black friend, therefore I’m not a racist” -diversion for why you’re now an expert on (black?) teenagers

I keep hearing this allegation that TM had “mixed martial arts” training, but I can’t find any evidence of that. GZ clearly had this training, but as any martial arts instructor will tell you, if your training is not stopping your attacker, use a gun.

alan9074

Are you suggesting that Zimmerman chose to start a fight with someone substantially taller, younger, and more fit than him? Why? I know I wouldn’t. Would you? So why is this assumed about Zimmerman? You logic has a huge hole in it. Oh, and why this need to denigrate my post? Can you not take part in a civil discussion? It’s not that hard, maybe you should try is sometime. Wouldn’t hurt to try.

peterpi

Zimmerman had a gun. Martin didn’t. That’s why, to your opening questions.
Regarding denigrating, the name is Trayvon Martin, not “L’il Tray-Tray.” You don’t want to be denigrated, don’t engage in denigrating.

guest

But he didn’t start the fight. Did you listen to Jeantel testimony?

toohip

I realize this is flippant and sarcastic, but the reference to “Jeantel” . . is that racist or is this my “liberal knee jerk reaction?” hmmmmmmmm

alan9074

Just because you’re a conceal-carry holder doesn’t mean you can’t freely inquire the business of a stranger in public. Or doesn’t this matter to you? Of course you don’t have a right to be recklessly antagonistic, but you DO have the right to approach people and ask questions. Can you at least agree on this?

peterpi

Did Zimmerman try “You appear to be lost, may I help you?”

toohip

“Excuse me young man, may I be of assistance in assisting you on your legal right to be here and help you get home safely?” (“but I know you —— always get away!)

Guest

So what did Trayvon do to make Zimmerman suspicious? Why doesn’t anyone of you answer that? Other than he was black and wore a hoodie. Did that alone give Zimmerman the right to confront him? No, it didn’t. He already called the police and was told not to follow him.

guest

Pay attention to what was said at the trial when he phone in (not the NBC version).

“Hey we’ve had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there’s a real suspicious guy, uh, it’s Retreat View Circle, um, the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he’s up to no good, or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about.”

No, Zimmerman was acquitted and all we have is you pretending to know something while you call other people names.

Its a real sign of weakness to try to build yourself up by putting other people down. It’s even worse when you do it like you are.

Guest

And you whine…yet you call Dano, dbag…don’t you?

Guest

And why don’t you callout alan9074 for calling Trayvon “lil traytray”. Oh yeah…..you must LIKE that type of name calling to a kid who’s dead!

peterpi

Thank you. He denigrates others while objecting to him being denigrated.

alan9074

I’m denigrating a dead person. That’s different than saying something bad about you. No, I don’t normally speak ill of the dead, but most dead people don’t die while trying to pound someone’s head in the pavement. Lil’ Tray-tray doesn’t deserve any respect.

Guest

Another heartwarming response from a cold-hearted conservative.
You’re a piece of work….or a piece of …….

TomFromTheNews

“I’m denigrating a dead person.”

Classy.

toohip

” don’t normally speak ill of the dead, . . . . Lil’ Tray-tray doesn’t deserve any respect.” Don’t you “love” it /sar/ when people of this persuasion make a hollow attempt to appear caring, and then remove all doubt!

toohip

agree, but let’s not stoop their level in lieu of an easier (and more intelligent) response. I won’t lose sleep over you calling lower-case guest “steviebag.” :o)

Guest

So was waiting to see other compelling evidence other than what you provided above. Any other callers to police about “a real suspicious guy”, “looks like he’s up to no good”, “it’s raining” etc. etc. Well……………….?

Steve R

Easy there Mr. Guest…I’ve only posted one time on this topic so you aren’t responding to me. However if you want to do it right Steviebag is lame…please learn how to talk smack because you kind of suck at it!

toohip

“Pay attention to what was said at the trial when he phone in (not the NBC version).” code for pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. The court has a duty to reject prejudicial and unrelated evidence, and hearsay.

You conveniently left out. . .”He looks black. ..A dark hoodie, like a grey hoodie . . .e’s just walking around the area …looking at all the houses. . . Now he’s just staring at me. . . . He’s got his hand in his waistband. And he’s a black male. . . these -ssholes always get away. . .f-cking (—–?). . .he ran! . . .what’s your address – oh crap I don’t want to give it all out, I don’t know where this kid is. . . . . .

Thank you for including the link to the transcript. Those of us that clicked the link saw that all of the inflammatory snippets you included after you wrote “You conveniently left out. . .” were responses to questions from the dispatcher. The transcript showed that he was just accurately answering the questions. Your summary above makes him sound like he is some crazy person.

alan9074

You have the “right” to approach ANYONE in public for ANY REASON. How is this lost on you? How can you not understand that?

Guest

On a dark rainy night, when you think a tall, big, MMA black dude who can kick my *ss and is up to no good……yeah right! How is THAT not understood by you????

alan9074

Or you saying he profiled him? So what? What does that have to do with the price of tea in Albania?

Guest

Well this shows you don’t live in the real world!

eddie47

Everything, SS -Alan . How is “that not understood by you”? Do you stop and frisk all you encounter too?

Not necessarily or are you the Gestapo and snoop into everyone lives. The NSA has a job for you!

alan9074

Eddie do you have a legitimate question to ask me regarding this incident by chance?

toohip

oooooh, alan is attempting to channel is intellectual self! Fail.

alan9074

Toohip, your ignorance is exceeded only by your charm.

toohip

“Just because you’re a conceal-carry holder doesn’t mean you can’t freely inquire the business of a stranger in public.”
WTF!? The rational of those on the right is truly amazing!

So alan, you believe you have the right to “approach” anyone and “ask questions?” Which related to this incident is politically correct way of saying “stalking and confronting.” Try this at night in Detroit with a couple decent looking black men.
No, I don’t think we can agree on this, because it’s not that simple as you try to fictionalize.

toohip

it’s so racist and he still doesn’t get it. . . ignorance, a badge of rationality for the right.

toohip

“Are you suggesting that Zimmerman chose to start a fight with someone substantially taller, younger, and more fit than him? Why?” didn’t you read peter’s previous explanation of his “ace in the hole.” A (especially a CONCEALED firearm) provide more than compensation for a smaller body part, but also kind of your “backup” when you’re losing the fight you started by STALKING (for thor ;o) someone. Remember as thor says, it’s the “superior” weapon of choice.

guest

Actually from what we know, Martin sucker punched Zimmerman and then jumped on top of him. Now you probably consider that cleaning someone clock and perhaps Martin did to. I don’t consider Zimmerman a wacko, but you probably qualify.

toohip

You don’t consider Zimmerman a whacko because he is “you.” While Martin is not. That we understand. But if we give you that Martin “sucker punched” Zimmerman and jumped on top of him. . where we seem to differ (I’m being kind here) is that you believe this is justified to pull your hidden 9mm and alter the direction of the fight. . . and we don’t.

toohip

Thanks (capital “G”) Guest for pointing this comment out. I was so quick to respond, I did’t read this hateful, racist, heartless comment. People who make comments like this don’t deserve a rational response.

Dano2

He should have been a good…boy…said yes massah, bowed his head and walked away. He should have known his place!

Nevertheless, it’s too bad Trayvon wasn’t armed to show that little Napoleon (who shouldn’t have been allowed a CC) who’s who and what’s what.

Best,

D

Steve R

Dbag you are almost 100% correct but he should have communicated with GZ like a normal human being instead of starting a fight. More like, “My name is Trayon and I live with my dad right over there”. Instead he went all gangsta and started a fight, that caused hid death. Argue all you want but as your president said, “we are a nation of laws and the jury has spoken”. Go ahead and beat a dead horse but the facts of the case was heard, a verdict was rendered and GZ is not guilty. There will be no civil suit (except for the one GZ has against NBC for their lies about the 911 tape) and there will be no civil rights suit (because GZ might have had hatred for the punks who were burglarizing the neighborhood but it had nothing to do with race). I know liberals don’t like to stick with the facts because they seldom jive with their agenda but as sad as it is that TM is dead…the facts are the facts and this one is case closed!

peterpi

Martin didn’t owe the time of day to Zimmerman.
If a police officer stops you and asks you a question, you can walk away. Now, that may lead to an arrest, but you can walk away.
Zimmerman was a neighborhood watch volunteer, not even a police officer.
Maybe Zimmerman should have identified “himself” to Martin, and asked politely.

guest

How deep did you have to go to come up with that? How many watch captains are instructed to identify themselves to suspicious strangers and ask politely for their information?

peterpi

How many watch captains continue to pursue when the police advise not to?
How many watch captains carry heat?
How many watch captains target black passers-through as suspicious, and don’t phone in white or other passers-through?

guest

A lot more than you apparently can imagine.

And how many people walk all around a neighborhood in the rain very slowly and seem to be casing the joint.

Guest

Steviebag…where’s your proof of any of this?? Really??
You’re sinking further and definitely making **it up, as Dano2 tells you all the time!

Steve R

Damn you guys are awesome (i really do mean that)…sometimes when you are stuck in the sand you get board but I can always count on the marionettes to keep me occupied. Just let me know if those strings that are tied to your arms and legs get to tight! Now dance little guy…dance!

Guest

Got nuthin huh?

toohip

peter would say you mean “bored” not “board”. . but I wish you could say your put-downs were “awesome!” Fail.

eddie47

Townhomes can all look the same even in the daylight so naturally he would be looking around to find the right one.

toohip

and he didn’t “live” in the neighborhood, he lived with is mom. He was there visiting his dad, so I believe “looking around” or at houses, seems reasonable. Oh, wait, I forgot . . he’s (gulp!) black!

toohip

“nd how many people walk all around a neighborhood in the rain very slowly and seem to be casing the joint.” “casing the joint???” pretty broad interpretation of “looking at the houses” per GZ. So . . by your standards, anyone who walks very slowly in the rain and looks at houses is guilty and you need your gun for these “types?”

toohip

Sadly more than we care to know!

eddie47

They absolutely should to distinguish themselves as having authority instead of coming across as a stalker as Zimmerman had done.

toohip

uh, maybe the ones that SHOULD be in this position? I’m mean come on. . we’re taking about conceal carry people every where, and if you’re a watch volunteer and you start stalking someone and they notice you and come towards you, considering they might be armed (too) it would seem like a reasonable thing to announce? Police have to.

alan9074

That Zimmerman could have prevented this is worth mentioning, but the moral and legal responsibility goes to Martin, because it was HE who initiated the violence.

Guest

So says Zimmerman….Trayvon couldn’t counter that could he?

peterpi

Very convenient for Zimmerman.

alan9074

Steve, to assume otherwise is to assume that Zimmerman opted to start a fight with someone substantially taller, younger, and more fit than he is. Does that make sense? It doesn’t make sense to me.

Guest

That’s because you have no common sense!

alan9074

As evidenced by?

peterpi

He had a gun, the great equalizer.

alan9074

So Zimmerman wasn’t in any way worried about the legal ramifications of using deadly-force in self-defense and he then proceeded to purposefully antagonize Tray-tray into throwing the first punch. Ummmmmmm, ok? LOL

peterpi

The name is Trayvon Martin.
Zimmerman wasn’t worried, because he knew all the ins and outs of “Stand Your Ground”. That law is now thoroughly interwoven throughout a self-defense claim. The moment Zimmerman claimed self-defense, the moment Zimmerman stated “I thought my life was in danger””, “Stand Your Ground” stood between him and a jail cell.
Try watching something other than Fox, and listening to someone other than Limbaugh or Beck.

alan9074

Rigggghhht. Zimmerman had no fear and was being reckless and wanted a fight more than anything. Guns do not bring you automatic courage. LOL, you think I watch main-stream tv news? LOL!!! Try coming back with a better one-liner if you so feel the need to insult someone.

toohip

“Guns do not bring you automatic courage. ” . . they do when you bring them to a fist fight!

alan9074

Zimmerman had no idea if Tray-tray was packing too.

Steve R

Pete no offense bro but have you ever been in a fire fight? Let me answer that for you…HELL NO! To think that GZ thought of all of this as he was getting his head beat in is ludicrous. In a situation like GZ was in its fight or flight on steroids. Dude didn’t think, his instincts to stay alive took over! It’s easy to sit back from the cheap seats and calculate the whole thing out but it’s a lot different when you are knee deep in the bullsh**! Just hope you are never in this situation!

Guest

Wow, steviebag, you sound like a Zimmerman wannabe…maybe change your name to billybad*ss…..LOL…a lot!

toohip

oooooooh, using the “fire fight” put down argument! Well played, alan, well played. What, you got the fire put out and saved your burger?
We all are aware, alan of your put downs (“cheap seats”) and name calling, but please don’t lead your put down with “no offense, bro” or “Dude” Man-up and show us the racist pr–k you really are :o) (smiley icon added for contrast)

toohip

apparently not has PROVED in the trial by the prosecution that Zimmerman was completely aware and knowledgeable of the SYG law. Another reason he carried a gun – because he knew regardless of the opponent’s lack of weapon he could use it and defend himself with the law.

toohip

I wouldn’t say a gun is an equalizer for a kid using fists, but in Right-Wing World it is and always the solution. One would think in Machismo-World one would defend themselves on equal grounds, but bringing a gun to a fist fight is rational to the right.

eddie47

Where do you come up with goofy theories? I was more mature and fit at age 28 than I was at age 17. You’re the one not making sense. Heck I was in better shape at age 40 by a long shot.

toohip

per YOUR interpretation of just the law. But going to a greater consideration, I believe most people would agree that the shooting death of an unarmed teen who was breaking no law is rather an extreme justification for what led up to all this. Further, the real debate here aside from the race issue, aside from the behavior and conduct of Zimmerman or Martin, even aside from the issue of conceal carry or guns in general. . are these castle doctrine laws that suggest the public and act like cops and DECIDE themselves if a person is a threat. . even when they create or provoke the threat, and are able to use a legally concealed gun to shoot and kill in some vague nonsense they are protecting themselves against an EQUAL (read armed and drawn) threat. This is the greater issue, and why many including myself want to see this to be the issue needing change. But like mass shootings, it’s going to take another Newtown before the public can see the “forest” of the deaths of innocents for the “trees” of phony 2nd Amendment rights.

alan9074

You don’t consider breaking someone’s nose and continuing to pound him as being against the law? Tray-tray DID break the law, and he was initiating extreme violence when he did it. Does this not matter? Oh, wait, it’s more important that Tray-tray might have been “offended” for being “profiled”. Well, too bad. It didn’t give him the right to inflict great bodily harm.

toohip

One thing that stuck out with me at the trial was Zimmerman’s comments what Martin said after he shot him.

Which suggested to me that Martin obviously didn’t realize Zimmerman was armed and after immediately being shot (you don’t just go unconscious or die or fall down like in the movies) his comment “OK. . you got it, you got me” was a revelation by Martin not that he was going to die, or even that he had been shot, . . but that he realize Zimmerman had a gun and used it, and had the upper hand. 10 minutes later he was dead.

Dano2

Dbag you are almost 100% correct but he should have communicated with GZ like a normal human being

The wingnuts aren’t even hiding it any more. They are going to break and take on their way down.

Best,

D

guest

More stupidity from DTJ that he really believes is clever.

toohip

‘Hi, Mr. I don’t know why you’re stalking me. . “”My name is Trayon and I live with my dad right over there” please don’t shoot me!’
Now I thought “gansta” would of been more like pulling your nine and capping someone in the heart, but what to I know. Steve is the expert on “gansta.” Steve’s “facts” are convenient using the court, and likewise I’m sure Steve agrees with the “facts” of the OJ case that exonerated the black guy killing a white people?
Hey, Stevie, any time you want to fact-check your “facts” with ours, we’re game! And Stevie doesn’t want us to debate this because he says “facts are the facts” and “case closed!” I’m sure he feels the same way about the recent gun control laws passed?

thor

Do you ever take anything seriously? Yes massah?

toohip

Ohhhhhhhhhh, if you only knew! ;o)

toohip

No, “they” are saying he should or ran away directly home and then he wouldn’t of deserved to be shot!
And “they” seem to always evade this proverbial question of “armed self defense” to answer the question of what if Martin had a gun and shot Zimmerman under the stand your ground law as applied. But we know their answer would be a straw man argument of “he was underage so he couldn’t conceal carry.” Then you suggest, OK we’ll make him of age, and still . . silence. We know the answer to the difference is about race and stereo types, but they’ll deny it.

toohip

I still find it amazing if not just an effort to convince us of the denial, that someone can just casually suggest that someone armed can shoot and kill a unarmed teenager who wasn’t a pro-active threat, is not culpable of doing something wrong. Naturally they’re not going to understand how profiling can lead to negative consequences, because these types look at the world in absolutes of black and white (excuse pun) and of personal responsibility. While I’m not surprised at all the deflections and denials that have come from this ilk, I’m actually surprised we didn’t hear the argument that Martin should of carried a gun himself, like we hear from the NRA about teachers and other victims.

alan9074

An “unarmed” teenager who broke a man’s nose and then continued to beat him. Martin didn’t need to “carry a gun” as well, he only needed to act like a civilized human being and he would still be alive. Oh, wait, that’s not the way it is. Actually, Zimmerman is an evil killer and took delight in what he did and it’s a travesty of justice that he’s now a free man, right? (eyes rolling)

Spot on, Rashna Singh! They were condescending and arrogant. And Don West’s comments were vile, IMHO.

cyndy orr

GET OVER IT ALREADY! George Zimmerman was found NOT GUILTY (as he should have been)! It was self defense. If a white guy had jumped him the outcome would have been the same. The ONLY reason all this hoopla is going on is because Trayvon Martin was black! Is this whole reaction to the verdict not racist? I believe it is! If Trayvon Martin had been white, would all this crap even be going on? NO!!! Zimmerman has my FULL support (mine and MANY others!)!!! We are SICK of the race baiting!!! Trayvon was NO angel. He jumped the wrong guy and paid for it. I have absolutely NO sympathy for him!!!

Guest

Another wacko speaks!

Dano2

Only a nutjob would say Americans should accept this injustice and taking of another American’s freedom (and life). Here on planet earth, that is unacceptable.

Best,

D

guest

You don’t know very much about life on planet earth and the difference between a legal system and justice. Of course that’s not to be unexpected.

Dano2

If you think the legal system is just, then you are just the clownish rube intelligent investor I’ve been looking for to take advantage of this real-estate opportunity! PM me right away!!!!

Best,

D

guest

You don’t even get it when I spell it out to you. We have a legal system, not a Justice System. And give it up trying to be clever. You aren’t.

Dano2

Normal, sane people want justice. Why you don’t is a mystery to sane, normal people.

Best,

D

alan9074

And normal people, when discussing various social and legal issues, actually converse and exchange relevant ideas and thoughts instead of repeating utterances of no substance.

“Best…………”

Dano2

I agreeeee – why that particular guest needs to twist what I say to have play is beyond me – right TrayTray?

Best,

D

alan9074

Your words, not mine.

toohip

“Tray-Tray”? Nah, those are yours . . .wear that racism proudly!

toohip

41% of Americans say they would of found him not guilty, while 38% said they would of found him guilty of one of the charges (2nd degree murder or manslaughter) Interestingly a 46% majority of white voters were “pleased” or “relieved” with the verdict, and 57% of white people over 65 would of found him not guilty. 6% said they could care less either way. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/17/george-zimmerman-poll_n_3612308.html

Dano2

Why don’t you want justice? Because a black boy was shot?

Best,

D

toohip

Yeah, Guest, he’s “spelling” it out to you! You can’t read between his racist and narrow minded commentary his obviously rational thought. And reality check small-g guest. . . big-g guest (love saying it that way) is much more “clever” than you.

alan9074

Lil’ Tray-tray is the person who violated the personal liberties of Zimmerman, not the other way around. Zimmerman had the right to not be physically attacked. Lil’ Tray-tray did NOT have to right to initiate violence.

Guest

Then Zimmerman shouldn’t have followed him.
Do you think Zimmerman will try to follow anybody again, or do you think he’ll simply shoot and claim “I feared for my life”? Worked once, why not again??

alan9074

So now juries are supposed to consider what the defendant might do in the future, huh? Wow. Ok.

Guest

Not what I said, but in your world I guess that’s what you comprehend.

Dano2

Thank you for projecting your wish, and calling Zimmerman’s story good enough for you.

The good thing is there will be more armed black men in the future to protect themselves against these small-hands little Napoleon geniuses…

Best,

D

alan9074

So Zimmerman is lying? He somehow concocted the PERFECT story the very same night it a while COOPERATING with the police and somehow didn’t submit a single piece of incriminating evidence to the police that they could use against him? Do you have ANY IDEA how hard it is to pull something like that off? But that doesn’t matter. All that matters is that Lil’ Tray-tray MIGHT have been “offended” for being asked about his business and the violence that HE initiated is not his fault because whitey wasn’t respecting him? That’s what you’re going to cling to huh? Ok. lol, whatever.

“Best…………”

Guest

More heartwarming “discussion” from a cold hearted conservative. What a pathetic world you live in.

Dano2

Please son. Your weak blame the victim and proud use of your new n word is telling.

Best,

D

Steve R

Funny how liberals like Dbag are the ones that continue to bring up race. It’s starting to become clear who the real racists are!

Dano2

Sane people know that wingnuts are projecting. It’s plainly obvious.

But thank you evarrr so much from taking time out solving differential equations to comment here. Or maybe building a rocket. snork

Best,

D

Guest

You are what you are, steviebag

alan9074

Steviebag? LOL!! C’mon now. Be nice.

toohip

pot and kettle

toohip

Nothing worse than a racist-denier. . . Especially those who expound racial remarks or innuendo and try to get on the river in Egypt and throw in an occasional pleasant or caring remark to deflect. Got ‘a love ’em!

peterpi

You ask for reasoned discourse, and then repeatedly refer to L’il Tray-tray.
Dissonance.

Dano2

You know tray-tray is the new N word, right?

Best,

D

toohip

Dano, they won’t “get” it because their still smarting from not being able to use the n-word, and the black rapper can!

toohip

peter’s compassionate liberal way of saying. . you’re a hypocrite and a racist!

eddie47

That’s why Stand Your Ground laws are becoming absurd and give too much leeway to either side in initiating violence.

alan9074

Stand Your Ground laws didn’t even come into play in this incident, as I recall. This was purely a question of whether or not this killing was justified.

toohip

Nah, going to take more innocent deaths. We’re a slow progressing society. Look how many mass shootings and innocent deaths it took before we finally got to Newtown before the public said “maybe we should have more gun control.” And what gun “effective” control did we get that threw the run-right into an outrage such that they threaten legislatures and try to get them recalled?? Laws like if you’re convicted of spousal abuse you can’t own a gun. . . 15 rounds are “enough” to hunt Bambi’s mom and defend your home. . . and maybe background checks are a good idea?

toohip

“Lil’ Tray-tray is the person who violated the personal liberties of Zimmerman, not the other way around.” In Right-Wing World. . .standing your ground with fists to someone stalking you is a violation of personal liberty (“You cant’s take away my . . .FREEDOM!”). . where your right to have SYG applied with fists doesn’t count, unless you have a gun to which the law applies.

toohip

racist denier If Travon had been white, and Zimmerman black, It would be first degree murder and Zimmerman would be in prison long ago. So how do you explain the (black) woman who fired her gun in the ceiling to scare her abusive husband away under the stand your ground law, sentenced to 20 years for “aggravated assault?” I guess in your non-racists mind that’s different?

BobC

Generally, the laws on self-defense with a gun are not very rational. Here in Colorado, if you ‘brandish’ a gun to defuse what you think MAY be a dangerous situation, you have committed a felony with a gun. In this woman’s state, committing a felony with a gun carries a minimum 10 year sentence. If the gun is fired (which she did), the sentence is automatically 20 years. The legislators who crafted this law have admitted that it was never meant to be applied in this kind of situation (unintended consequences), and I expect the Governor will pardon her fairly soon, and we can hope the law is modified.

Bizarrely, if she had waited until she really was in a dangerous situation, then killed the guy, she would be OK with the law.

This situation has exactly nothing to do with race — it is more about the inadvisability of putting draconian minimum sentences into laws, instead of letting judges use their common sense. When this law was passed, it was meant to apply to things like bank and store robberies where people’s lives were threatened, not ex wives who didn’t really want to hurt their ex husbands, so shot into the wall as a warning.

eddie47

When a white man Stands His Ground you make him into a hero. When a black man or kid in this situation Stands His Ground you turn him into a criminal. Yes if a black man would kill a white man his prison sentence would be life without parole. So please check out the sentencing statistics and see the wide discrepancies in some states. . Saying you have NO sympathy shows your racial bias.

BobC

” When a black man or kid in this situation Stands His Ground you turn him into a criminal. Yes if a black man would kill a white man his prison sentence would be life without parole”

Total BS. Google “Roderick Scott Christopher Cervini”

toohip

Well, heck! That’s one! and proof enough that there is no racism in our justice system. /sar/

BobC

No, it’s proof that eddy47’s statement is BS.

(As you know, since you labeled your comment sarcasm.)
Why not try making a logical point for once? Or is that too hard?

toohip

See: Florida (black) woman sentenced to 20 years for standing her ground by firing her gun into the wall to scare her abusive husband.

rightwingliberal

And if the sun didn’t come up that day, Martin would still be alive.

The verdict is in, get over it and move on.

toohip

Code: “Pay no attention to the dead black kids. . just move along folks, justice was served . .and remember all the crimes black teens commit so it’s only fair us white folks get some too!”

StillUndecided

Letter Writers,
Why haven’t we seen any letters to the editor regarding the Roderick Scott case?

guest

Perhaps because conservatives aren’t racists and don’t whine.

Guest

Yes you are and you do!!

guest

So why don’t you back up what you say. You said I’m racists. Now prove it.

Guest

You’ve done nicely yourself!

toohip

Don’t make me research all your comments to prove it. I don’t have that much time to prove an obvious.

toohip

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA! (or are you being sarcastic?)

cyndy orr

Christopher Cervini was a WHITE kid killed by a black man. I wouldn’t be surprised if what we DID hear was about how Cervini was racist and that’s why he was shot (even though it’s not). This was actually self defense also (from what I’ve heard) and I think Roderick was right to use it, although the injustice of the hoopla difference between the Martin case and the Cervini case is ridiculous!!! If there is no “justice” for Martin, there is certainly no “justice” for Cervini!!! What’s the difference???

toohip

I realize in your small world, cyndy, you dwell on the minutia in this world to attempt to counter an overwhelming trend of racism in our country and courts, but you’re going to have to try harder as your world becomes more of a minority environment (see: last election).
The difference is as I posted before if you wouldn’t just note it was a black on white crime, was the Christopher Cervini was a kid with a criminal record caught breaking into cars in Mr. Scott’s neighborhood and while Mr. Scott also was found not guilty, he should of been convicted of manslaughter for taking the law and deadly force in his own hands. Cervini wasn’t even in Scott’s yard. Nice try, give your next smoking gun why this isn’t about race.

toohip

Well I’m guessing because it happened five years ago, and the white kid black Roderick Scott shot and killed was breaking into cars. Kind of outdate and non-analogous. Ready for the next right-wing exceptional example you want to hold up. Maybe you should use “but what about Benghazi?”

Eldon

It saddens me to see what we have become. A man paroling his neighborhood to do his part to keep it safe. Knowing that there had been reported robberies by young black men. That’s not racist, that’s just the facts. He sees a young black man, not the picture of the 12 year old boy the media loves to show, walking around the neighborhood in the rain wearing a hoodie. Not, that seeing a young black man is a bad thing, but know about the robberies and who have been doing the robberies, and the fact that it was rain, he does exactly what he is suppose to do and call 911. Then, he went above and beyond, if any of us leaved in that neighborhood, we would / should have been very thankful that he wanted to ensure the suspicious person did not get away, and he followed him. He did not profile him. He did answer questions that the 911 operator was asking. The operator did ask / tell him not to follow, but that was advise at best, not law. It did not make it illegal for GZ to follow. I would have done the same thing as an attempt to help protect others, not knowing who this person is or what they may do if they get away. At some point, there was a point were Trayvon and GZ confronted each other and a fight broke out. Knowing what we do about obth men, Trayvon started the fight. As GZ was being pounded on, he fired a shot. Trayvon died. As tragic as that is, it does not make GZ guilty or a bad person. We simply use racialism as an excuse. We have for many years. We have to stop and talk about the real issues. There are hundreds of young innocent black men murdered every day by other young black men. We very seldom EVER hear about that, because the media and our current President of the USA can not bait everyone over that because it is two black men. So sadly, it continues with little coverage and no noticeable concern from our president. Now, that is something to get angry over.

Ted Cruze said today that’s why Republicans lost the election and he’s going to say “FU!” to his fellow Latinos and deny all illegals a path to citizenship and run for President appealing to the old whiite Republican racist, greedy, base. Go, Ted, Go!

eddie47

We know that those on the far right will not listen to stories of poverty, joblessness in black neighborhoods and the deaths of black teenagers. All we hear from those right wingers is that Trayvon deserved what he got. If they could care less about him then why worry about 2 black kids in a black neighborhood.

toohip

I guess the progressive in me still finds shock and awe that there are people who can think so callously and uncaring. They live in this fantasy world of personal-responsibility and determining your own fate, and rationalize these types of people “deserve” their fate.

toohip

Reality according to Eldon. “Love” the editorial description of what took place, especially “he fired a shot – Travon died.” Not only was Zimmerman not guilty but he was a not a bad person in Eldon’s eyes! Phew! I was worried for minute, Eldon might think negatively of Zimmerman and his actions.

But I “love” it after all of Eldon’s “rationality” he wants us to drink like kool-aid he has to throw in about our President baiting everyone that he doesn’t care about black men being killed every day, just this one. Thanks for your opinion, Eldon! You must live in a very simple world and get all your news from Fox.

Robtf777

I can do no better than to repeat what I wrote in response to another Letter. If that bothers someone…….try to find fault with what I wrote……from a legal standard……and not with the silly fact that this is a “repeat.”

============
Zimmerman may not be a “saint”…..but he is half Hispanic……and
his version of the events that lead up to the death of Martin was
apparently backed up by enough evidence the jury heard during the
trial……that the jury apparently came to the conclusion that the
possibility DID EXIST that:

(1) Zimmerman committed no crime by following a person he thought was “suspicious enough” to call the police on.

(2) Zimmerman actually may have turned around and walked away from Martin.

(3) The possibility existed that Martin became upset and mad and
angry and felt “disrespected” by a “a&% cracker” who was following
him……and when Zimmerman turned and started to walk AWAY…..it was
MARTIN who initiated the violent confrontation……and that it was
MARTIN who was on top of Zimmerman……and it was MARTIN who was the
Criminal who was Actively Assaulting Zimmerman.

Again, the jury had to decide which version of events to believe (1)
The prosecution’s “theory” that was based solely on their interpretation
of the evidence that relied on calling Zimmerman a liar (2) The
defense’s claim that Zimmerman was telling the truth and the fact that
there was interpretations of the evidence that SUPPORTED those claims.

The jury…..and any judge…..is not even allowed to find someone
guilty of a crime they may not have committed……for “political”
reasons and/or to make someone like the NAACP or Al Sharpton
“happy”……unless “proof of guilt” can be established “Beyond A
Reasonable Doubt.”

And, that “reasonable doubt” was raised……and the jury bought
it……to the extent that Zimmerman was not found guilty of committing
even a single crime.

The point just above is so crucial that it MUST be repeated:

“The jury…..and any judge…..is not even allowed to find someone
guilty of a crime they may not have committed……for “political”
reasons and/or to make someone like the NAACP or Al Sharpton “happy.”.

Morrisey

The jury in the George Zimmerman case is beyond courageous. For six women to take

their time, investigate the occurrence and come up with their verdict is commendable. These women acted against the emotion of the public and brought their belief that Zimmerman acted because he was protecting the people in a neighborhood where break-ins and thievery were rampant. I applaude the jury for a decision that was based on what they believed to be true regards the evidence presented. It took great courage to bring to the court the verdict they believed to be justifiable.

peterpi

They brought the only verdict they could.
There was no pre-trial “Stand Your Ground hearing, but “Stand Your Ground”, including the phrase, was woven throughout the judge’s instructions, because the law has been re-written that way.
All Zimmerman had to say was “I thought my life was in danger.” The prosecution had to prove otherwise.
in FL, a person can now provoke another into attacking, kill the other, and claim-self-defense.
The jury was thoughtful and deliberate and came up with the only verdict they could under the law.

eddie47

That may be true, Stand Your Ground has been misused numerous times in the state of Florida and has become legalized murder. Both Trayvon and George stood their ground and see where that lead to.

toohip

LOL! Courageous? What if they convicted Zimmerman? Then they’d be cowards! Sorry morri, but it wasn’t courageous it was mandatory service, and the were given limited options. Remember 3 of the 6 voted to CONVICT him of 2nd degree murder, but when that wasn’t a consensus, these three asked for info on manslaughter. . obviously wanting to convict him of “something.” And the wording they were given on manslaughter was so definitive they had little choice to vote to acquit. You keep picking and choosing your heroes (when they go your way by choice (juror B37) or by lack of choice. This is what they call a straw man argument. Look it up.

Phillip Pappas

This verdict was the right one. Beyond a reasonable doubt for “murder” as opposed to self defense was never proven. People may question it, but making it about race is a joke.

Happy Jack

Lawyers Hookers have more morals then most lawyers and are more honest.

That being said, I think part of the problem with our justice system is the, “win at all costs attitude”, of both the prosecution and defense lawyers. There are innocent men/women sitting in jail due to prosecution lawyers who ignore the truth, hide evidence and if new evidence shows up they still fight to keep the person they wrongly locked up, in prison. I have no cable/satellite so I catch reruns of shows I like on the internet. Just recently I was watching a 48 Hours episode called, “The Accuser”, that describes this very thing. It aired June 15, 2013 if you choose to see it. 2 men accuse a third of murder, both recanted and admitted they lied. And still he sits in jail with another appeal just turned down. And defense lawyers…if I had to buy a car from a used car salesman or a defense lawyer, I pick the used car salesman. Get me marooned on a deserted island with the hottest looking female defense lawyer on the planet…and I would have to build my own monastery hut and become a celibate monk. A good percentage of lawyers probably deserve to be in the same prison as the criminals.

It is no longer about justice. It is about power/politics/T.V. face time/money…etc. And that is what needs to change somehow. If it is proven that an innocent person was railroaded into prison then the people responsible should have to sit in the same jail cell for the same amount of time that the innocent person served.

But, as flawed as it is, imo, it is still better then anything else I have seen.

Guest

Agree with all you said. That’s why so many politicians are former lawyers.

And nobody wants to admit the possibility of Zimmerman’s dad (ex judge) helping to pull strings to help his son. Tell me one parent who wouldn’t do all they could to keep their child out of prison. As poor as this case was prosecuted, I think that was a part of it. Of course there’s no evidence. Yet? But is anyone even looking into that?

And we can’t simply stop and say, “oh well, let’s move on” as so many on here want to. That Florida law is dangerous and needs to be changed.

TomFromTheNews

Some of the photos of Trayvon Martin remind me of another young black person involved in the civil rights story: Emmett Till. Till was from the North and made the unfortunate mistake of making a flirtatious remark to a white woman in a small southern town in the 1950s. This was seen as a “provocation” by local citizens and he was killed by a lynch mob (the “neighborhood watch” of its day) who got away with it.

Everyone needs to understand that, to the African American community, what happened to Trayvon Martin sends echoes of memories of events like Till’s murder. It makes us mindful that this sort of violence is still with us.

Steve R

Your right about one thing, there is definitely a lot of senseless violence in this country. In fact in places like Chicago innocent children have been murdered standing at a bus stop or just walking through a park. However I realize because these innocent people are African Americans and are killed by other African Americans, you could care less! It’s so f’n sad that people like you only care about young African American kids getting killed when you can exploit it in a misguided attempt to further your agenda!

Guest

And what’s your agenda?

Answer this, I’m sure you won’t, but were the shooters caught and did they get tried and walk because they “feared for their life”?
That’s what this thread is about….but you cold hearted conservatives always try to veer off another direction instead of facing truth.

Dano2

Notice the bona fide with “Chicago”. Same as “takers”.

Best,

D

eddie47

Where did Tom say he didn’t care about them?

TomFromTheNews

Thank you, eddie.

anonymouse

11,106 black murders since that fateful day in Florida. Very few committed by other than black people. I think comparing Martin to Till is very disrespectful to Till’s memory. Those two young men had very little in common outside of the color of their skin. You bet violence is still with us, but be honest about who it is that is being violent.

Dano2

Why is it that no one bothers to mention that black-black % is within a few % of white-white murder?

Where you get this kind of mis-information? Please cite your sources. Black on black crime, violence and murder are exponentially higher than white on white or white on black.

Dano2

Not misinformation at all. Of course I can’t post hyperlinks, but Google this phrase

This classic post is being picked up in several places, and the
reason is not far to seek. Later weâ€™ll have a poll where Iâ€™ll ask â€śWhich is the dumbest educated group?â€ť and where choice (A) will be â€śReporters.â€ť This post first ran 27 January 2013.

And scroll down to Figure 4. The sources of the data are at the end of the post.

You can do a Google Image search for “chart black on black homocide” and find many similar hits.

Best,

D

Dano2

Sad Faux and the other media misrepresented the numbers to make you scared?

The NRA and gun manufacturers aren’t sad you are scared. They make lots of money off of pants-wetters buying ammo and guuuuns.

Best,

D

TomFromTheNews

“Those two young men had very little in common outside of the color of their skin.”

1. They were each in an unfamiliar place (Till in a southern town and Martin in a rich gated community).
2. They each acted “suspiciously” to the local authority (Till making untoward comments to a white woman, Martin…well, walking home, I guess).
3. They were each engaged by non-deputized authorities and subsequently killed (Till by a lynch mob and Martin by GZ).
4. Each killing sparked outrage by a national community that is often regarded as “less than” and for whom race-related violence has often gone unpunished.
5. The bottom line in both cases is that the act of deadly violence in each instance was exonerated, leaving a nation to ponder what would have happened if the facts of race had been different.

anonymouse

Susan: “Unconscionable”? Is that because of your personal desire to see Zimmerman convicted or is it based upon the facts presented during trial? Those six jurors were under immense pressure and you sit in judgement and accuse them of having no conscience? Not very nice. I would counter that what is unconscionable is the flaming of racial hatred from the black leaders in this country. Unconscionable is the escalating revenge crimes being committed across the country. Unconscionable is people trying to have local murderous “child” Macyo Joelle January tried as a juvenile even though he’s had several bites at that apple in his short 18 years on the planet. Unconscionable is Trayvon’s father sporting a Crips tattoo on his neck and then hastily having it covered up for no other reason than media optics. Unconscionable is the federal government wasting resources to appease a certain segment of the population. Unconscionable is the refusal of parents to parent. I could go on, but I think you get my point. There was nothing unconscionable about this verdict. Those jurors did what was asked of them. They weighed the evidence, listened to the testimonies and they arrived at a decision. Show some respect.

Guest

What’s “unconscionable” is someone killing a child and simply saying “I feared for my life”, and able to get off. The rest of your “points” are not even worth responding to, but shows your lame attempt to justify this travesty. I might add desperation to justify this.

alan9074

A 6’2 “child”, who sucker-punched and continued to beat a person to the point where he feared for his life. Yes, this is a tragedy, but the responsibility goes to whomever initiated the violence in this encounter, and that was not Zimmerman.

Guest

Why do you have to lie?? Oh yeah, cause you need to justify this travesty any way you can! From the police report:

“And they gave definitive word on his size:
5-feet-11, 158 pounds. Zimmerman’s family has said Zimmerman was 5-feet-8 and about 190 pounds.

“Sanford police believed the encounter
between George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin was “ultimately avoidable” if Zimmerman had
“remained in his vehicle and awaited the arrival of law enforcement.”

“There is no indication that Trayvon
Martin was involved in any criminal activity at the time of the encounter,” said
one police report in hundreds of pages of evidence released
Thursday.”

Guest

Forgot to add this also:

“The evidence, though, was also noteworthy
for what was missing: any clear indication of who started the fight that led to the fatal shooting. The evidence released also did not include any of the statements 28-year-old Zimmerman made to police after the shooting.”

alan9074

Ok, so Zimmerman chose to start a physical fight with someone taller, younger, and more fit than he was, just so that he could lure him into the PERFECT situation which he supposedly planned and then give the PERFECT excuse and somehow none of the other evidence contradicts his claim. Riigggggghhhht (eyes rolling)

Guest

Your eyes should roll because I don’t think even YOU can believe you wrote this! But you do like to make **it up to try and justify this travesty!!

alan9074

Give me a reason to not believe it, and I’ll listen to whatever you say. I’m all for the truth, no matter how disquieting the facts are. Demonstrate to me how and why Zimmerman wanted this to turn into a physical confrontation and I’ll listen to what you have to say.

Guest

No you’re mind is closed when you called Trayvon “lil traytray”, and said you’re disrepecting a dead person so it doesn’t matter.
You have zero class, by the way. And never said Zimmerman “wanted this to turn into a physical confrontation”. But that’s your strawman to try and justify this travesty.
Besides, Zimmerman had 3 weeks to consult with lawyers and his dad (retired judge) to get his story ready and study the “stand your ground” law before he was even arrested.

alan9074

But the stand-your-ground law didn’t even come into play in this case. It was purely a matter of whether or not it was a justifiable use of deadly force. You think it was not justified apparently, but WHY? Having your nose broken and being continuously beaten thereafter doesn’t matter?

Guest

And why did the defense decide not to use it?
Fist fights happen all the time and Zimmerman WAS getting his *ss kicked, but he wasn’t being “beaten” to death. He was up and walking/talking right after his whupping! He convinced the jury, or his lawyers did as he wouldn’t testify, that he “feared for his life”. You’re right….I don’t think it was justified to kill someone and walk away simply because a weenie bit off more than he could chew!
And thanks for dropping the “lil traytray” bs that makes you look like……well really an awful human being!

alan9074

But AGAIN, I must ask you; Would YOU pick a fight with someone substantially taller, younger, and more fit than you? That simply doesn’t jibe with me. Look, who was screaming in that 911 call? If it was Travon screaming for his life and screaming for help, what could Zimmerman have been doing to him to make him do that? I just don’t know how you can come up with a different conclusion.

Guest

How is 2-3 inches “substantially taller, and what does that have to do with anything? This is what gets me about people who search for anything to justify this travesty. Zimmerman outweighed Trayvon by 40 lbs. and he had a gun. Zimmerman may have been “screaming for his life” because he bit off more than he could chew and couldn’t handle an a** kicking that he was getting. But far from “being beaten to death”! We’re not getting anywhere with this so I’m not going to respond anymore.

alan9074

So Zimmerman committed a felony, not once, but twice? First, he started a fight while carrying a concealed firearm (felony #1), and then killed someone after he was losing the fight that he started (felony #2)? As far as the height difference, it makes a great difference to anyone familiar with fighting. Taller people have longer reach, and that makes a huge difference when sizing up the fighting capabilities of any possible opponent. But again, I must ask, WHY WOULD ANYONE purposefully put himself in such a legal position? WHY?

Guest

“Stand Your Ground” was not used as a defense in this case and did not play into the deliberations nor in the verdict. The national race baiters dragged it out and claimed it was a factor when the facts in the case did not support their desired outcome. When the police investigated the original incident they did not believe they had enough evidence to arrest. Only one-sided pressure from the usual suspects made it a national trial and yet the prosecution could not make a factual case to convict Zimmerman.

eddie47

I think its apparent that blacks will no longer be stalked and harassed by whites like in the “good old days”. (why Trayvon reacted) I bet Emmet Till wished he had a gun and was able to stand his ground against the lynch mob. You need to reflect on historical facts and show some respect in why things happen. Instead of the attempt at reverse race baiting. The jurors had mixed feelings as it is with most trials. One wanted second degree and 2 wanted manslaughter against Zimmerman so their thoughts didn’t hold sway. Zimmerman was no hero just doing his job and I thought reckless manslaughter would have been appropriate. The same verdict I felt was right back in Feb 2012. If Martin had killed Zimmerman with recklessness then he too should have been convicted. That Stand Your Ground law has wrecked havoc on peoples thinking where anything goes without repercussions .

BobC

” If Martin had killed Zimmerman with recklessness then he too should have been convicted.”
Martin didn’t call 911, like Zimmerman did. It’s highly unlikely that Martin would have stayed around had he succeeded in killing Zimmerman in order to give statements to the police. Also, Martin initiated the violence.
The idea (which you seem to be promoting) that blacks can initiate violence on anyone who ‘disses’ them is contrary to centuries of law. If you really want to live in that kind of world, move to Chicago.

Dano2

I get it: if a little Napoleon Crimebuster stalks me for the crime of carrying Skittles, I have to bow my head and know my place and take whatever the tough guy wants?

“I get it: if a little Napoleon Crimebuster stalks me for the crime of carrying Skittles, I have to bow my head and know my place and take whatever the tough guy wants?”

That’s known as a “straw man” argument. If you really think you have made a point (or responded to my post), then you need remedial instruction in logic.

Of course, if you had the courage of your (probably faked) convictions, you could try attacking everyone who looks at you on a public street — such deviant behavior would ensure your quick removal from polite society.

Dano2

That’s known as a “straw man” argument.

Tell that to the people “preening” over “Zimmerman’s” walking away and getting his “gun” back – that’s their implied argumentation.

Best,

D

BobC

It’s hard to follow your “reasoning” — are you suggesting that your illogical arguments are OK because you don’t like the fact that some people (who you don’t like) are celebrating Zimmerman’s acquittal?

I don’t like the fact that a bunch of racist hustlers were trying to lynch Zimmerman — but that’s not why he was (or should have been) acquitted. He was acquitted because the evidence presented at trial exonerated him.

The knee-jerk racist attitudes of those here who are trying to lynch Zimmerman in the court of public opinion remind me of the similar attitudes (with the races reversed) of those who belonged to that famous wing of the Democratic Party, the KKK.

toohip

Kay Robbins is the typical racial-issue denier, who but for the forest of ignorance, can’t see the forest of the problems of race in this country. While I don’t see “profiling” as an evil, there are times when it’s a necessary evil in identifying the “probable” vs the “stereotypical.” Since most of the burglaries in Zimmerman’s neighborhood had been committed by blacks, it’s reasonable to add suspicion to a young man walking through the neighborhood, who also seems to be black. But as Susan Altenhofen adds to the “what if” arena, if Paul Blart-Mall Cop police-wannabe Zimmerman had identified himself and his intent, adding he had a gun, Martin wouldn’t of most likely reacted the way he did to a suspicious “creepy cracker” stalking him. But Zimmermans small p-nis compensation in the form of his concealed 9mm, empowered him to not take precautions on his own safety and his agenda to cop-like pursue this teenager.
People like Ms. Robbins and several of the usual suspects here, so conveniently are in denial on race, because they look for obvious rather than subtle, requiring Zimmerman to wear white supremicist tattoos along with a membership card, scream the n-word at Martin, and espouse racial epithets before they buy into any racial intent. Likewise the gunnies, would expect Zimmerman to simply gun down Martin immediately before they believe he abused the use of his body-part extension.
Newt Ginrich on CNN was asked how he reacted to this and he said it shows the “division” in America. I thought he was going to have some ephiphany about race or class division, but instead he said “all the white people accepted the verdict, while all the black people did not.” That’s the way the racist-deniers think. While I believe a poll would show the majority of white people felt the verdict was not “fair,” though “just,” the reaction of the African-American community obviously carries racial undertones. . and why shouldn’t they be. As our black president in the white house pointed out, we white guys don’t know what it’s like to be a black man in white America, or that the stories to discrimination in the work place, by the police, in the public square and by businesses are real, and not just imagined. And the “I have a black friend, therefore I’m not a racist” types will point out where blacks are given “special” treatment because of their skin color as an “overreaction by liberals.”
This case is VERY MUCH about race, though in our court of law proving Zimmerman’s racist attitude, was not a driving factor to his actions. So don’t look for that Fed case, but at least it feeds Right-Wing World that (conveniently) the black U.S. Attorney General and the black President are intervening and calling for Federal charges on race.

toohip

One technical point, brought up by rationale expert, and race-denier, Kay Robbins, was the angle of the gunshot to Martin, proving he was on top of Zimmerman. While I’ll buy into the allegation Martin was the initial PHYSICAL aggressor, and might have been on top of Martin giving him a “stand your ground” reactionary thumping. . if you’re sitting on top of someone and hitting them, even holding their head and slamming the head into the sidewalk (which I don’t believe because of Z’s minor “1cm” cut injuries). . you’re at an angle to the guy on the ground and so should the shot an angle. TM would have to have been literally chest to chest with GZ in order for GZ, flat on the ground to fire a shot at this perpendicular angle. Evidence says it was at 90 degrees perpendicular to the body. That suggest both men standing opposite each other, not one on the top. In order to pull off this angle, GZ would of had to raise the gun, and tip it downward to create a 90 angle to TM’s body. I didn’t understand why the prosecution didn’t hit on this.

toohip

While I’m normally a pro-defense type of observer, probably as a progressive who sees the abuse of district attorneys and a rabid public demanding for more charges and longer prison terms, resulting in innocent people going to prison (U.S. has the greatest number of their people in prison than any other country) . . .I agree with Rashna Singh that the defense lacked basic dignity and professionalism, post-verdict. Most defense attorneys will celebrate their win and continue to defend their client, but usually admit while their client was innocent, this was a tragedy. Instead, the defense were pompous and arrogant in their post-verdict press conference. O’Mara, the more professional and respectful of the two, carried this attitude surprisingly. But it was Don West’s first words out of his mouth that the prosecution was “disgraceful” that was unacceptable and I’m surprised a violation of his ethics under the bar. His frequent run-ins with the judge illustrated his contempt and arrogance, and did not present a positive image for defense lawyers. While the prosecution, with little evidence to prosecute GZ were for once limited, with all the typical prosecutions vast resources, I thought were professional, and didn’t get abusive in cross-examination like the defense did. I’d like to see the number of objections and how many sustained from both sides. I think the prosecution was obviously more professional, and while many said they failed, should of done better, I’m not really sure they could have with the knowledge of the stand your ground law glaringly overshadowing the case. . yes, I know usual suspects it was used by the defense, because it’s like getting a witness to blurt out an answer to sustained objected question or question a witness denies. . .the reality still get out there.

toohip

Got to “love” /sar/ Calvin Lapuyade’s and Verlyn Regehr’s typical advice from the right that while not popular (read: with liberals and African-Americans) we “have” to accept it and we should just “move on.” “Nothing to see here, folks, let’s just move along.” “Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.” As Susan Altenhofen points out in reflection, while this might be “legal,” to many black, white, liberal, conservative. . it wasn’t necessarily “just.”

toohip

I feel Laszlo Soos’s letter points out a very sad and profound observation that “we” (as in driven by the old white conservatives) are suggesting the issues of race and discrimination are over so, let’s just “move along” and do away with those outdated protections against racial discrimination, because they believe we’ve achieved racial equality in their world, because you can no longer make black folk use their own restrooms, openly deny them service, or deny them to vote anymore, so we fixed all this. Meanwhile the man behind the curtain is creating straw man issues of illegal voting to directly suppress the votes of African-Americans and other poor folk who might not recognize that trickle down economics is good for them.

April

Seems like the main sticking point that people don’t agree on is: Was Trayvon justified in attacking Zimmerman? I say no. He was not justified in attacking someone who was walking away from him and had done him no harm. And then pummeling him, breaking his nose, straddling him, telling him “you’re going to die tonight motherf**ker”, and then reaching for the gun before Zimmerman did.

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