Again this discussion is so academic at this point. The developers have acknowledged a need and still we have people here protesting NO NO NO NO NO NO as if it's even a relevant argument anymore. It's kind of amusing. It's almost like a caveman arguing with an engineer that the wheel isn't needed. You people are on the wrong side of history. I knew that even after the developers came to this conclusion (as slow as they were to do that) their would be obstinate members of the community who would be in denial anyway. It never ends.

I do not think people are argumenting "Nononononon". People are just having different ideas of what is the correct way to go. Personally I believe nerfing normals or adding a 4th raid mode is just retarded. Neither would have a desired outcome in the long raid.

If we nerfed normals, 2 years down the road, people would still be complaining "normals too hard". Where does it stop? Do we nerf and nerf until normal = LFR now. Or do we let go of the little kids bike and let him ride the bike himself? Even if he falls down and hurt himself a few times, eventually he will learn to ride that bike. We do not need to cater the raiders.

Adding a new mode between LFR and normal is just asking for less content. Devs balancing 4 difficulties.

Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

Just a question to you. Why do you raid? Not meaning to offend or anything. Just ask yourself, why do you raid?

Personally, I raid for challenges. If raiding becomes easy, it loses its point. Nothing beats the feeling of wiping on a boss for 2 weeks and finally getting the kills. The best memories I have from WoW is from just those occasions, wiping and wiping, raid after raid until finally getting a kill. If everyone fell down in a few pulls, where is the enjoyment in raiding?

To spend time with people I like spending time with. Current raiding is fucking exhausting and I end every night I end ToT with a migraine headache. LFR has issues, the biggest one being over exposing the raid to players but it isn't going anywhere. I'm glad you like challenge. good on you. However increasing challenge with no correction is ultimately an unsustainable model.

What the denial REALLY amounts to is an extreme attempt to defend the obviously failed tiered raiding model and the obviously and incredibly flawed idea that difficulty will inspire everybody. It's a Zombie argument that should have died a long time ago. Again cavemen arguments being offered by cavemen.

So. Say we removed both normal and heroic mode raiding. LFR was not end game content. There was nothing more hardcore than LFR. LFR gear is BiS gear. Everyone clears it.

What would the point be of raiding? Is everyone happy? Everyone can access the end game content right? Perfect game?

Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

I do not think people are argumenting "Nononononon". People are just having different ideas of what is the correct way to go. Personally I believe nerfing normals or adding a 4th raid mode is just retarded. Neither would have a desired outcome in the long raid.

If we nerfed normals, 2 years down the road, people would still be complaining "normals too hard". Where does it stop? Do we nerf and nerf until normal = LFR now. Or do we let go of the little kids bike and let him ride the bike himself? Even if he falls down and hurt himself a few times, eventually he will learn to ride that bike. We do not need to cater the raiders.

Adding a new mode between LFR and normal is just asking for less content. Devs balancing 4 difficulties.

It stops when the content is no longer providing enough push back to be appealing. Tthat's the whole fucking point. That's why LFR doesn't suffice. That's why normal doesn't suffice. I mean why is it we can give difficulty to the top tier players and that's totally sustainable but nobody else can be catered to like that? They do nothign BUT cater to raiders. The entire design of this game is a massive catering to raiders.

---------- Post added 2013-05-26 at 01:46 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Firefly33

So. Say we removed both normal and heroic mode raiding. LFR was not end game content. There was nothing more hardcore than LFR. LFR gear is BiS gear. Everyone clears it.

What would the point be of raiding? Is everyone happy? Everyone can access the end game content right? Perfect game?

What would be the point for you? I don't know I'm sure you'd leave but frankly I suspect you are a minority. Are more people happy? Probably yea.

I mean your example is so extreme in it's stupidity. It's a reduction to an absurd end. How bout the other dumb ass logical extreme? get rid of lfr and normal and just cater to heroic raiders? NOBODY or next to nobody clears it?

What would be the point of raiding then? Is anyone happy? Virtually nobody can access the end game content? Perfect game?

To spend time with people I like spending time with. Current raiding is fucking exhausting and I end every night I end ToT with a migraine headache. LFR has issues, the biggest one being over exposing the raid to players but it isn't going anywhere. I'm glad you like challenge. good on you. However increasing challenge with no correction is ultimately an unsustainable model.

You can still spend time with people you enjoy and having challenging content (not that current normals are challenging). If you are wiping, you can improved yourself together, help eachother. Instead of pulling, pulling, pulling, wiping, wiping, wiping, getting angry etc. Take a breath and a step back. Ask yourself, "why are we wiping? How can we improve?". Help eachother, support eachother becoming better. Improve your dps rotation, your healing, moving out of fire, and suddenly, you and your team overcome a challenge together and you have a feeling 10x greater than you could ever have in easier content.

Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

You can still spend time with people you enjoy and having challenging content (not that current normals are challenging). If you are wiping, you can improved yourself together, help eachother. Instead of pulling, pulling, pulling, wiping, wiping, wiping, getting angry etc. Take a breath and a step back. Ask yourself, "why are we wiping? How can we improve?". Help eachother, support eachother becoming better. Improve your dps rotation, your healing, moving out of fire, and suddenly, you and your team overcome a challenge together and you have a feeling 10x greater than you could ever have in easier content.

No we can't. We've had to sit players because they aren't up to snuff. WE helped them and supported them and tried desperately to work with them but as I said before the increasing complexity being created to cater to heroic raiders is unsustainable. It leaves older raiders who weren't as good but good enough for the relatively less complex mechanics (and player rotations) in the dust and more so than that it punishes NEW raiders who don't have a wealth of experience behind them. Not everybody is a super star, not everybody is cut out for this difficulty and they get let out in the cold because of it.

Man you must think were some kind of fucking idiots. Were asking for appropriate content. Again all I read is denial. denial denial denial.

I mean your example is so extreme in it's stupidity. It's a reduction to an absurd end. How bout the other dumb ass logical extreme? get rid of lfr and normal and just cater to heroic raiders? NOBODY or next to nobody clears it?

What would be the point of raiding then? Is anyone happy? Virtually nobody can access the end game content? Perfect game?

I am not asking for heroic raiding to be the only content. So your second point is kinda mute. Normal modes are accessible as it is. I wish T14 raids to take the place LFR has currently. T14 is easily accessible for anyone.

And I do not expect my example to be that extreme. If we keep nerfing, nerfing, nerfing, that is where we would end up.
Do you honestly believe more people would be happy? This is just me. I know maybe about 60-80 people playing WoW. So that is a small sample size, but without exaggarating 0% of the people I know enjoy LFR. A majority of them are the opposite, very vocal about how much they hate it.

Have you ever been in an LFR and thought "Damn this is fun?". Do you sense the enjoyment in LFR? Everyone is happy, only happy faces. Granted, I have only done about 200-300 LFRs in MoP. But I cant recall one of them that did not involve swearing, people being mad at eachother. People afking, "KICK X" "NO KICK Y". etc.

Is that enjoyment for you?

I do not believe I am a minority since I am yet to meet this "LFR raiding is the best thing that ever happened" person in-game or in real life.

Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

I am not asking for heroic raiding to be the only content. So your second point is kinda mute. Normal modes are accessible as it is. I wish T14 raids to take the place LFR has currently. T14 is easily accessible for anyone.

And I do not expect my example to be that extreme. If we keep nerfing, nerfing, nerfing, that is where we would end up.
Do you honestly believe more people would be happy? This is just me. I know maybe about 60-80 people playing WoW. So that is a small sample size, but without exaggarating 0% of the people I know enjoy LFR. A majority of them are the opposite, very vocal about how much they hate it.

Have you ever been in an LFR and thought "Damn this is fun?". Do you sense the enjoyment in LFR? Everyone is happy, only happy faces. Granted, I have only done about 200-300 LFRs in MoP. But I cant recall one of them that did not involve swearing, people being mad at eachother. People afking, "KICK X" "NO KICK Y". etc.

Is that enjoyment for you?

I do not believe I am a minority since I am yet to meet this "LFR raiding is the best thing that ever happened" person in-game or in real life.

No normal modes are not accessible as it is. Again you are so far in denial about this you are now also arguing against the developers who are basically saying raiding isn't accessible enough and was better served in the ICC model.

Your example is obviously fucking extreme because the developers aren't even close to doing that. Yes I believe more people would be happy with more accessible normal mode raids.

Lfr isn't fun but it has nothing to do with the difficulty or the accessibilty of the raid. It's the exposure to 25 other assholes you don't know and don't care to know and just give you a headache when they wipe to easy shit. In fact in that stance I would make the argument lfr is to hard. I mean even the example you list about LFR has NOTHING TO DO WITH DIFFICULTY and everything to do with anonymity breeding assholes. Well assholes also need a spark and wiping in lfr is usually a pretty good spark.

No we can't. We've had to sit players because they aren't up to snuff. WE helped them and supported them and tried desperately to work with them but as I said before the increasing complexity being created to cater to heroic raiders is unsustainable.

As a long time raider, I do not think raiding has become harder. I think the raiding population has become worse due to the reasons I mentioned before.

Each expansion, people spend less and less time raiding, because they are forced to spend more and more time doing content that is not raiding to prepared for raiding. I do not know if you read my long post. But if we instead make raiding prepare raiders for raiding, people would become better raiders.

The current model of "You should not raid to become a raider" has made people worse.

We tried to put together a new raid team with our old ulduar raid team, and we were quite frankly amazed of how terrible the raiding population was. Players that 4 years ago we would not even have considered as they were 'not good enough', are now the perfect raiders. The average raider has become so much worse in the past few years.

You say all you read is 'denial denial denial'. I got to say the same to you. You say you ask for appropriate content. We have been steamrolling through normals with newly dinged alts. Using random pugs that were completely carried, having a raid team geared with about 490ilvl, we easily cleared ToT normal. A pug had to leave on Dark Animus, we proceeded to 9 man Dark Animus with an average item level of about 495 at that point. Was not even an issue. I am rather sure we could 8 man ToT with 495 ilvl.

Our raiders were complaining in 490 gear at how easy the bosses were and that it was no fun, no challenge.

Then I ask you, if we can do that? How is the content not appropriate? This is not bragging. This is an honest question. The content is not harder then ever. This is not an armsrace between heroic raiders and devs. This is the results of the raiding community being catered far to much resulting in them becoming worse and worse.
It is time to push the little birds out of the nest and let them fly.

Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

The concentrated enjoyment of a few doesn't make up for the lack of enjoyment of many.

Or, another way. People can't have fun in raids they don't get to go to.

Rest of your post was nonsense that told me you never played vanilla or TBC.

Just because a player gets to do something and does it doesnt mean they enjoy it. There is a significant number of players that Blizzard knows will follow where the loot is as long as the effort required is fairly low.

Before LFR there was more calls for the reduction or complete removal of raid content and for raid gear to be placed on a vendor purchasable with currency earned outside of raids than there was for calls for allowing more players to see the content and that they wanted to raid because they enjoyed it. GCs statement that the change of the color of LFR would drive a lot of players away already shows that there is a significant portion that participates in LFR for the gear over the enjoyment of raiding. What do you think would happen to LFR if Scenarios started to reward all the same gear at a similar rate?

Originally Posted by RickJamesLich

Beyond that the other arguments are "I want a more social raid", these people don't realize you can just bring friends to your LFR or use vent if you really want to. There's no logical argument at this point really for the easy mode raids, this thread is just beating a dead horse.

There is a difference between being a small group among many strangers among different realms and having a small group of friends that can control the pace that a group is going. Have you ever played with friends or players you have befriended in WoW?

I would argue that LK10 is way harder than Lei Shen10. Lei shen was a joke and went down within 10 tries.

I actually agree with this. We wiped far more on LK10N than LS10N. And our raid team was better geared and more skilled in WotLK.

---------- Post added 2013-05-26 at 02:03 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy

No normal modes are not accessible as it is. Again you are so far in denial about this you are now also arguing against the developers who are basically saying raiding isn't accessible enough and was better served in the ICC model.

Did you read (actually read) the long post I made further up.

What do you think of a proposition like I made there? Making further nerfs to T14 raids, T14 gear cheaper to VP upgrade and removing LFR. This would allow you to raid more with your friends instead of 24 random idiots.

You would have an easier time transitioning into T15, would this be something of interest?

Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

As a long time raider, I do not think raiding has become harder. I think the raiding population has become worse due to the reasons I mentioned before.

Each expansion, people spend less and less time raiding, because they are forced to spend more and more time doing content that is not raiding to prepared for raiding. I do not know if you read my long post. But if we instead make raiding prepare raiders for raiding, people would become better raiders.

The current model of "You should not raid to become a raider" has made people worse.

We tried to put together a new raid team with our old ulduar raid team, and we were quite frankly amazed of how terrible the raiding population was. Players that 4 years ago we would not even have considered as they were 'not good enough', are now the perfect raiders. The average raider has become so much worse in the past few years.

You say all you read is 'denial denial denial'. I got to say the same to you. You say you ask for appropriate content. We have been steamrolling through normals with newly dinged alts. Using random pugs that were completely carried, having a raid team geared with about 490ilvl, we easily cleared ToT normal. A pug had to leave on Dark Animus, we proceeded to 9 man Dark Animus with an average item level of about 495 at that point. Was not even an issue. I am rather sure we could 8 man ToT with 495 ilvl.

Our raiders were complaining in 490 gear at how easy the bosses were and that it was no fun, no challenge.

Then I ask you, if we can do that? How is the content not appropriate? This is not bragging. This is an honest question. The content is not harder then ever. This is not an armsrace between heroic raiders and devs. This is the results of the raiding community being catered far to much resulting in them becoming worse and worse.
It is time to push the little birds out of the nest and let them fly.

Christ the developers are telling you the icc model made sense because it had EASIER 10 MANS. In the view of this statement your experience is basically you plugging your ears and screaming in denial. Or better said I'm a long time raider myself and I can tell you that the actual process of raiding a boss has never been as difficult. Everything outside the game is pretty smooth (although gearing is a pain in the asshole now) but the bosses themselves are more complex then ever and the level of complexity has also increased over time (also the developers admission) to keep heroic raiders interested. Well this is unsustainable and will have to be corrected.

how did you do it? Well i don't know maybe your all nietzchean uber mench here to save us from the plebian masses who can't handle piss easy normal raids. I'll turn that back on you how do you want me to answer such a ridiculous question? Honestly think about what you asked me and you'll come to the answer yourself (here's a hint YOU MAY BE BETTER THAN AVERAGE)

The content is harder than ever. Period. This is why the developers think another difficulty is needed. I don't agree that another difficulty is needed, simple that normals and heroics be easier and if that's to bad for you it's to bad for you.

Were asking for appropriate content. Again all I read is denial. denial denial denial.

Yet at the same time you are talking about obliterating the content designed for a whole demographic of people. There is a reason why this thread is progressing nowhere and is just people yelling at each other.

What do you think of a proposition like I made there? Making further nerfs to T14 raids, T14 gear cheaper to VP upgrade and removing LFR. This would allow you to raid more with your friends instead of 24 random idiots.

You would have an easier time transitioning into T15, would this be something of interest?

Yes I did. It amounted to further denial of what the developers are actually saying. It amounted to a tired defence of the tiered raiding model, telling raiders who have been stuck on normals of the previous tier to go back and do the previous tier and expect to be happy so the tiny minority of raiders who find this level of difficulty appropriate can be catered to. I'm not sure why you should expect them to be happy with less and have you get so much more? I'm not sure why you sohuld expect them to constantly be a patch behind BASED SOLELY on complexity of fights (and not on catch up which they do in lfr and outside of the game now).

---------- Post added 2013-05-26 at 02:08 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Keoren

Yet at the same time you are talking about obliterating the content designed for a whole demographic of people. There is a reason why this thread is progressing nowhere and is just people yelling at each other.

A very tiny demographic sure. I mean the developers can create another tier of difficulty in between normal and lfr but it'll just stratify and divide the community up further. In the end the problem is still the same. Difficulty and complexity as a curve cannot simple go up and up and up and never correct itself because at some point even the hardcore raiders won't be able to continue. It'll just be method and paragon.

I am not asking for heroic raiding to be the only content. So your second point is kinda mute. Normal modes are accessible as it is. I wish T14 raids to take the place LFR has currently. T14 is easily accessible for anyone.

And I do not expect my example to be that extreme. If we keep nerfing, nerfing, nerfing, that is where we would end up.
Do you honestly believe more people would be happy? This is just me. I know maybe about 60-80 people playing WoW. So that is a small sample size, but without exaggarating 0% of the people I know enjoy LFR. A majority of them are the opposite, very vocal about how much they hate it.

Have you ever been in an LFR and thought "Damn this is fun?". Do you sense the enjoyment in LFR? Everyone is happy, only happy faces. Granted, I have only done about 200-300 LFRs in MoP. But I cant recall one of them that did not involve swearing, people being mad at eachother. People afking, "KICK X" "NO KICK Y". etc.

Is that enjoyment for you?

I do not believe I am a minority since I am yet to meet this "LFR raiding is the best thing that ever happened" person in-game or in real life.

Except lots of players are doing LFR, and less and less people are doing normal. Personally I despise it but that's because after 3 weeks on my alt I haven't gotten a single drop ... but that's a different story lol

You can say LFR sucks and everyone you know says it sucks and the guy down the street says it sucks however, except for finding healers the que times are really quick meaning people are queing for it. LFR is very successful for what it was created for and will be here for a long long time.

If they didn't enjoy LFR why would they que? To get gear? But you can just do normal mode ToT to get gear ... yet even with that choice they are choosing LFR ... hmmmm? I'm choosing LFR because I don't want to create another full group just for 10m normal when I already have one on my main, I don't want to go threw all the stress of doing it all over again and rather just solo que as my alt. If there was an easier difficulty I would gladly grab some friends and some pugs and do that instead of LFR. LFR is here to stay and it's never going anywhere despite what you guys say or do and because of that the raid will be "cleared" quickly by those "raiders".

The goal of an "easier" difficulty is to NOT nerf current difficulties while adding a "nerfed" version that has a shared lockout with normal/heroic. Once 5.4 hits (or earlier) they will nerf 5.2 raids, they wouldn't need to if there was already a nerfed version.

And for adding a 4th difficulty it wouldn't be that hard to balance at all, a 20% debuff and there you go :P Hell it could be a 10% debuff that increases over time.

Christ the developers are telling you the icc model made sense because it had EASIER 10 MANS. In the view of this statement your experience is basically you plugging your ears and screaming in denial. Or better said I'm a long time raider myself and I can tell you that the actual process of raiding a boss has never been as difficult. Everything outside the game is pretty smooth (although gearing is a pain in the asshole now) but the bosses themselves are more complex then ever and the level of complexity has also increased over time (also the developers admission) to keep heroic raiders interested. Well this is unsustainable and will have to be corrected.

how did you do it? Well i don't know maybe your all nietzchean uber mench here to save us from the plebian masses who can't handle piss easy normal raids. I'll turn that back on you how do you want me to answer such a ridiculous question? Honestly think about what you asked me and you'll come to the answer yourself (here's a hint YOU MAY BE BETTER THAN AVERAGE)

The content is harder than ever. Period. This is why the developers think another difficulty is needed. I don't agree that another difficulty is needed, simple that normals and heroics be easier and if that's to bad for you it's to bad for you.

If you make normals and hcs easier you get normals to LFR and heroics to normal levels. Where's the point in that?

Yes I did. It amounted to further denial of what the developers are actually saying. It amounted to a tired defence of the tiered raiding model, telling raiders who have been stuck on normals of the previous tier to go back and do the previous tier and expect to be happy so the tiny minority of raiders who find this level of difficulty appropriate can be catered to. I'm not sure why you should expect them to be happy with less and have you get so much more? I'm not sure why you sohuld expect them to constantly be a patch behind BASED SOLELY on complexity of fights (and not on catch up which they do in lfr and outside of the game now).

That is not what I wrote. My suggestion would actually bring easier catch up as upgraded MSV HC gear is 510 ilvl and HoF/ToES 517ilvl compared to ToT LFR 502.
I suggested it as a stepping stone, not as being constantly one tier behind. Though your denial is so far up your ass it feels like you lost the ability to think.

Having T14 as stepping stone rather than T15LFR would
1. Provide more iLvL.
2. Give your raiders more raiding experience. Baby steps.
3. Allow you to play with your friends more.

All of which would prepare you better for T15. I am not asking for raiders like you to be behind one content constantly. Though to maybe farm T14 + 6/12 ToT for 2-3 weeks before getting 12/12. That seems like a reasonable compromise. If you are unwilling to learn to play properly, why should it hurt the demographic that actually put effort into their play? What would nerfing T15 further accomplish. Normals are already as easy as they have ever been in the past 4 years. Why make it easier? Normals are at the stage where a seasoned raid team could 8 man normal with 490 ilvl. What point you want it to get to? Being able to 6 man with 463 gear? What is appropriate tuning. Normals is accessable for anyone. You can not deny that. There is not a single raider that I do not know that I could not take a two hour sit down to make him good enough to easily clear 12/12 normal. In fact as I mentioned earlier, I think I could take players that have never played WoW before, give the a 90, learn them to play that class at a level that is required for 12/12 clear in an hour or two.
It really is not harder than that.

What you also need to think about. What if normals became even easier. 1 year down the road, your raid team would get stuck again, and ask for further nerfs. You would just get worse and worse. While the serious raiders are still as good as they have ever been. And that is a problem, the more your nerf content, the further the difference becomes between the lower end of the raiding pool and the upper end.

---------- Post added 2013-05-26 at 02:20 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Raone

Except lots of players are doing LFR, and less and less people are doing normal. Personally I despise it but that's because after 3 weeks on my alt I haven't gotten a single drop ... but that's a different story lol

You can say LFR sucks and everyone you know says it sucks and the guy down the street says it sucks however, except for finding healers the que times are really quick meaning people are queing for it. LFR is very successful for what it was created for and will be here for a long long time.

If they didn't enjoy LFR why would they que? To get gear? But you can just do normal mode ToT to get gear ... yet even with that choice they are choosing LFR ... hmmmm? I'm choosing LFR because I don't want to create another full group just for 10m normal when I already have one on my main, I don't want to go threw all the stress of doing it all over again and rather just solo que as my alt. If there was an easier difficulty I would gladly grab some friends and some pugs and do that instead of LFR. LFR is here to stay and it's never going anywhere despite what you guys say or do and because of that the raid will be "cleared" quickly by those "raiders".

The goal of an "easier" difficulty is to NOT nerf current difficulties while adding a "nerfed" version that has a shared lockout with normal/heroic. Once 5.4 hits (or earlier) they will nerf 5.2 raids, they wouldn't need to if there was already a nerfed version.

And for adding a 4th difficulty it wouldn't be that hard to balance at all, a 20% debuff and there you go :P Hell it could be a 10% debuff that increases over time.

Humans are human, path of least resistance. LFR requires 0 effort and gives free gear. Of course they run LFR.
Because people are spending more and more time in LFR, they get less and less time to raid normal modes.
You see the evil circle here?

People do LFR to get gear. Yes you can get gear in normal, but you can get gear in both normal and LFR.

It would be fun to see how many people did LFR if it shared lockout with normal and heroic.

Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

What you also need to think about. What if normals became even easier. 1 year down the road, your raid team would get stuck again, and ask for further nerfs. You would just get worse and worse. While the serious raiders are still as good as they have ever been. And that is a problem, the more your nerf content, the further the difference becomes between the lower end of the raiding pool and the upper end.

No it wouldn't. If the developer REALIZES that increasing complexity is unsustainable then fights won't increase in complexity and a year from nobody would get stuck. Now YOU might get bored and I play a small tiny violin for you but for others this difficulty would be just right and it would broad enough to get enough players into it.

---------- Post added 2013-05-26 at 02:22 AM ----------

Originally Posted by phyx

If you make normals and hcs easier you get normals to LFR and heroics to normal levels. Where's the point in that?

No you don't. That's the whole point of their being a gap. Nobody is asking for normals to be lfr like. We want normals to be somewhere between lfr and current normals and then current normals to be heroics and if hardcores or the tiny minority of players (for whom current content is approrpriate for) leaves then that's the cost of doing business. Somehow I doubt they will leave, their to hooked on the game anyway.

Seriously. I get tired of this "increasing complexity" shit. Are you really that far into denial? Reality check. Raiders got worse, not raids harder. Raiding is as easy as it has ever been. I would actually say it is easier now than before.

Please tell me which fight is that incredibly complex that it is miles beyond fights in previous expansions.
Which fight has suffered from this armsrace between devs pushing their raiders?

Lei-Shen N was a complete joke in comparison to other end bosses like Nefarian 10N, Cho'Gall 10N, LK10N, Yogg'Saron 10N.

Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.