2013 Rankings

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With the understanding of a few things:
1. Many trading operations are extremely different, and that is important to factor in.
2. These are subjective opinions based off of user experience.
3. Fit is usually more important than "rank".

I think it's somewhat important that people have a better idea of where they stand, given it's about that time where people have to start making decisions.

I think we should do the best we can to objectively categorize companies based off of their performance and the quality of people they attract and retain. Does everybody else agree?

That being said, the categories: (all rankings tentative until further discussion...)

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Comments (69)

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Agree with all rankings so far. Especially the ones towards the very top.

I hate victims who respect their executioners

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This is wrong. I don't know if this is trying to rank trading, origination, or what have you. But it is wrong.

"There are three ways to make a living in this business: be first, be smarter, or cheat."

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I don't think BP should be ahead of Shell as far as physical goes. Mercuria and Gunvor can also basically be put in the same breath as Glencore/Trafi. I don't know how you should rank the majors (BP and Shell inclusive) against the pure traders, it's a somewhat different ballgame, whether you're talking about compensation, culture, funding, etc..

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For fixed income and equity markets a lot of it depends on who your coverage is. Any firm can trade equities, and trade them well, the key is to have a salesman/trader who can get stuff done. Same with fixed income, you want someone who knows what you are looking for in the primary and secondary markets. There is no use in using a big name firm with a lot of respect if they are not showing you what you want. As a buy side trader, you go to whoever best suits your strategy. If you like to buy 500m-2MM pieces of Investment Grade paper, every firm on the street will have something to show you. The key is to find out which firm shows you the most value. It's obviously much different for derivatives, rates, currencies, structured products, etc. because they can be more specialized.

If nobody hates you, you're doing something wrong

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Vitol has been very strong for a very long time. Glencore has fallen off after their IPO in 2011 and subsequent move to Stamford. A great deal of talent cashed out at that point, but it could represent a good opportunity for openings. There are a number of smaller players in those markets that I've found intriguing as well (i.e. Gulfstream, Louis Dreyfus).

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Vitol has been very strong for a very long time. Glencore has fallen off after their IPO in 2011 and subsequent move to Stamford. A great deal of talent cashed out at that point, but it could represent a good opportunity for openings. There are a number of smaller players in those markets that I've found intriguing as well (i.e. Gulfstream, Louis Dreyfus).

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Vitol has been very strong for a very long time. Glencore has fallen off after their IPO in 2011 and subsequent move to Stamford. A great deal of talent cashed out at that point, but it could represent a good opportunity for openings. There are a number of smaller players in those markets that I've found intriguing as well (i.e. Gulfstream, Louis Dreyfus).

very wrong

You can't just say a ranking is wrong without giving an alternate ranking. Obviously, you agree there is a ranking, so go ahead and give your ranking or stop criticizing others for their rankings. You are not adding value by just saying 'very wrong'.

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Is ranking these firms based on flow volume, market share, or tightness of pricing really indicative of which firms have the most talented/profitable traders (and consequently, which firms it would be best to join as a junior where you can learn from the rockstars on the street)?

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Is ranking these firms based on flow volume, market share, or tightness of pricing really indicative of which firms have the most talented/profitable traders (and consequently, which firms it would be best to join as a junior where you can learn from the rockstars on the street)?

No, not necessarily indicitive of best places to go if you are junior. Every shop has very smart people and good traders, so you will learn a lot everywhere. Also, places like GS have fewer trades, but likely make more $ per trade because their business plan isn't to capture large market share.

Can only contribute what I know from being on the buy side. But with clearing coming up and the market likely to consolidate, I wouldn't want to be caught at a bottom tier dealer and end up getting shut down. Only the largest BBs are clearing FCMs, and all others will only be able to trade through execution agreements. It is yet to be seen how buyside shops will react to this, as it is possible they will just only trade with shops that are FCMs.

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It's apples and oranges. Tower and HRT are almost completely algo-based firms with software developer-types running the show, whereas Spot excels in vol arb and uses some fundamental analysis. They can all be considered "quantitative prop shops" based on these groupings, but are definitely not the same type of firm.

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Is ranking these firms based on flow volume, market share, or tightness of pricing really indicative of which firms have the most talented/profitable traders (and consequently, which firms it would be best to join as a junior where you can learn from the rockstars on the street)?

No, not necessarily indicitive of best places to go if you are junior. Every shop has very smart people and good traders, so you will learn a lot everywhere. Also, places like GS have fewer trades, but likely make more $ per trade because their business plan isn't to capture large market share.

Can only contribute what I know from being on the buy side. But with clearing coming up and the market likely to consolidate, I wouldn't want to be caught at a bottom tier dealer and end up getting shut down. Only the largest BBs are clearing FCMs, and all others will only be able to trade through execution agreements. It is yet to be seen how buyside shops will react to this, as it is possible they will just only trade with shops that are FCMs.

Would you happen to know which of the "lower-tier" firms on your list are there because they have the "GS business model" (by which I assume you mean more prop bets - correct me if I'm wrong), and which are there because they just aren't good?

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I don't think monty09 is saying that there's really a ranking, just that the whole Trafi is better than Glencore now because people have jumped ship after the IPO seems like a pretty bold/most likely unfounded statement.

Which is why, no disrespect to Tupac, the whole concept of a 2013 trading ranking is probably not that good of an idea anyway. There are too many variables to make true rankings. A list of "leading players" in each field is probably the best we can do.

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Could someone with knowledge (Ideally a buy-side trader) rank equities and related? OP just included Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, BAML but said he was not knowledgeable in the area. I feel like this is one of the places where some of other sell-side firms with solid ER teams( mainly thinking MM like blair, baird, etc) could step up and compete head to head with BB's, but I honestly have no idea. Any insight?

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Could someone with knowledge (Ideally a buy-side trader) rank equities and related? OP just included Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, BAML but said he was not knowledgeable in the area. I feel like this is one of the places where some of other sell-side firms with solid ER teams( mainly thinking MM like blair, baird, etc) could step up and compete head to head with BB's, but I honestly have no idea. Any insight?

If it's cash equities, just about any firm can trade them well. The commission dollars are usually awarded based on the more helpful research/management access.

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Vitol has been very strong for a very long time. Glencore has fallen off after their IPO in 2011 and subsequent move to Stamford. A great deal of talent cashed out at that point, but it could represent a good opportunity for openings. There are a number of smaller players in those markets that I've found intriguing as well (i.e. Gulfstream, Louis Dreyfus).

very wrong

We talking that whole continent called North America right? Monty as usual lays down the law. If he cares he could add his point.

I will keep it short, Glencore and Traf do not belong on the list for NAM Energy Desks, we talking North America right? Koch ain't what it used to be.

Also disagree that the pure trading houses are the main last goal for most people. Most people would rather go to a hedge fund or somewhere that gets more deal flow than so the so called "pure trading houses". Again we talking North America right?

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Vitol has been very strong for a very long time. Glencore has fallen off after their IPO in 2011 and subsequent move to Stamford. A great deal of talent cashed out at that point, but it could represent a good opportunity for openings. There are a number of smaller players in those markets that I've found intriguing as well (i.e. Gulfstream, Louis Dreyfus).

very wrong

We talking that whole continent called North America right? Monty as usual lays down the law. If he cares he could add his point.

I will keep it short, Glencore and Traf do not belong on the list for NAM Energy Desks, we talking North America right? Koch ain't what it used to be.

Also disagree that the pure trading houses are the main last goal for most people. Most people would rather go to a hedge fund or somewhere that gets more deal flow than so the so called "pure trading houses". Again we talking North America right?

Not necessarily just North America, don't know why we would limit it to that.

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Also, not sure about many hedge funds that trade the physical size a lot of guys at the majors and trading houses do. I know many funds will specialize in one sort of market (you'll see this in power... sometimes in local physical markets, like Port of Houston, etc), but not much more than that... if you could maybe expand on that? I'm not sure.

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would it be worth adding any IBD categories? or would the TR league tables suffice?

"because I want, to fit, in"

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On a global scale, glencore is absolutely top tier, as is traf. Agree for the most part w/ this list, and will also throw in that J Aron is my least favorite counterparty to do commodity deals with and I hope they get spun off and given to Lumina Investments

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I would eliminate BAML as their market share has been going down. I know you will be worked hardest at GS because they have very few to no trade assistants, so there is that (but you get the GS brand name). I would say CS or DB because as non US based firms they aren't subject to as many regulations which should help them going forward. As a side note I would lean towards CS of the 2 just because I can't stand DB's dungeon like trading floor...

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I would eliminate BAML as their market share has been going down. I know you will be worked hardest at GS because they have very few to no trade assistants, so there is that (but you get the GS brand name). I would say CS or DB because as non US based firms they aren't subject to as many regulations which should help them going forward. As a side note I would lean towards CS of the 2 just because I can't stand DB's dungeon like trading floor...

There is a droning, humming sound at DB that is pretty intense. Culture-wise I vastly preferred the CS folks to DB.

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I would eliminate BAML as their market share has been going down. I know you will be worked hardest at GS because they have very few to no trade assistants, so there is that (but you get the GS brand name). I would say CS or DB because as non US based firms they aren't subject to as many regulations which should help them going forward. As a side note I would lean towards CS of the 2 just because I can't stand DB's dungeon like trading floor...

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Vitol has been very strong for a very long time. Glencore has fallen off after their IPO in 2011 and subsequent move to Stamford. A great deal of talent cashed out at that point, but it could represent a good opportunity for openings. There are a number of smaller players in those markets that I've found intriguing as well (i.e. Gulfstream, Louis Dreyfus).

very wrong

We talking that whole continent called North America right? Monty as usual lays down the law. If he cares he could add his point.

I will keep it short, Glencore and Traf do not belong on the list for NAM Energy Desks, we talking North America right? Koch ain't what it used to be.

Also disagree that the pure trading houses are the main last goal for most people. Most people would rather go to a hedge fund or somewhere that gets more deal flow than so the so called "pure trading houses". Again we talking North America right?

Not necessarily just North America, don't know why we would limit it to that.

Maybe skimmed your initial post. But that is most likely where monty's comments came from and would come from the same. On Global scale totally different ballgame. This is just a North American focused forum usually and folks are usually looking at oppurtunities in North America. Totally different if we talking Global harder to judge.

My point to hedge funds exactly meant what you said, most people would rather end up at a hedge fund where you get paid long-term and control your fate specialized in something or other vs trading massive size at a major/physical trading house and having to deal with all the other stuff.

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Maybe skimmed your initial post. But that is most likely where monty's comments came from and would come from the same. On Global scale totally different ballgame. This is just a North American focused forum usually and folks are usually looking at oppurtunities in North America. Totally different if we talking Global harder to judge.

My point to hedge funds exactly meant what you said, most people would rather end up at a hedge fund where you get paid long-term and control your fate specialized in something or other vs trading massive size at a major/physical trading house and having to deal with all the other stuff.

Makes sense. So I guess to clarify, the focus is on juniors and the best place to get your first experience, with a lean towards North America but open to anywhere.

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After Lehman went under, Deutsche bank aggressively courted as many Lehman FI people as they could. Looks like the talent transitioned well. They've been doing this for other groups as well. Their FX ranking is unsurprising. Deutsche Bank has always been strong in FX trading, going back to Germany's Imperial days.

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I would eliminate BAML as their market share has been going down. I know you will be worked hardest at GS because they have very few to no trade assistants, so there is that (but you get the GS brand name). I would say CS or DB because as non US based firms they aren't subject to as many regulations which should help them going forward. As a side note I would lean towards CS of the 2 just because I can't stand DB's dungeon like trading floor...

Thanks for your help. I was under the impression that American banks w/ big balance sheets like BAML/JPM would be ideal places to be as a young grad. Also thought BAML was gaining market share with it beginning to successfully integrate Merrill's securities business into its own.

Thought CS was struggling in FI as of late and that new regulations coming into place might hit smaller and leaner shops like them, MS, and GS a bit harder.

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I would eliminate BAML as their market share has been going down. I know you will be worked hardest at GS because they have very few to no trade assistants, so there is that (but you get the GS brand name). I would say CS or DB because as non US based firms they aren't subject to as many regulations which should help them going forward. As a side note I would lean towards CS of the 2 just because I can't stand DB's dungeon like trading floor...

Thanks for your help. I was under the impression that American banks w/ big balance sheets like BAML/JPM would be ideal places to be as a young grad. Also thought BAML was gaining market share with it beginning to successfully integrate Merrill's securities business into its own.

Thought CS was struggling in FI as of late and that new regulations coming into place might hit smaller and leaner shops like them, MS, and GS a bit harder.

Any of this accurate?

all I can really say is I'm not too sure where people are getting the idea that BAML shouldn't be up there... i believe it's near the top in commodities too?

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I would eliminate BAML as their market share has been going down. I know you will be worked hardest at GS because they have very few to no trade assistants, so there is that (but you get the GS brand name). I would say CS or DB because as non US based firms they aren't subject to as many regulations which should help them going forward. As a side note I would lean towards CS of the 2 just because I can't stand DB's dungeon like trading floor...

Thanks for your help. I was under the impression that American banks w/ big balance sheets like BAML/JPM would be ideal places to be as a young grad. Also thought BAML was gaining market share with it beginning to successfully integrate Merrill's securities business into its own.

Thought CS was struggling in FI as of late and that new regulations coming into place might hit smaller and leaner shops like them, MS, and GS a bit harder.

Any of this accurate?

all I can really say is I'm not too sure where people are getting the idea that BAML shouldn't be up there... i believe it's near the top in commodities too?

BAML isn't bad, it just isn't what it used to be. ML was a bunch of old-school b.a. fixed income guys but most of them went elsewhere once the merger occurred. Still not a bad place, just know they have lost market share in the last year. I will say that their trading floor is one of the nicest on the street.

As far as regulations go, it could really go either way. Just giving my opinion. Seems like US based firms are getting hit the hardest with regulations and are the being the most conservative as far as the risk they are taking in their books. Non US firms aren't constrained by Volcker rule so they can still have prop desks.

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Why I Enjoy Networking with CandidatesI thought I'd write a networking post from a different perspective. We often see advice on WSO from people who are undergrads or recent hires with advice on how to network into the industry (good fresh perspectives from people who have recently navigated "the system"). I wanted to...

2016 Summer Analyst IB Recruiting Timeline Megathread<em>Mod Note (Andy): Make sure to bookmark this page as this will be the cumulative thread for 2016 SA <span class='keyword_link'><a href="http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/finance-dictionary/what-is-investment-banking-division-IBD">IBD</a></span>...

CFA Results - 2015Today is the big day we've been waiting for/dreading since early June, when we peeled out of the testing center parking lots, burned our books, and went off to get drunk with our long lost friends.
Level I & II results will be released via email today after 9:00 A.M ET. Level III...

McKinsey Who?Stumbled across this Forbes article from 1999 (link at bottom of post). When reading the first few paragraphs, you could easily think it was written yesterday (aside from the salary #'s). Makes the dotcom bubble of yore feel eerily familiar....
[quote]" <strong>7/26/1999...

Forum Topics

Meir Ezra: How to Guarantee Your Success"In life, the only real guarantee of survival is abundance."
-- L. Ron Hubbard from Self Analysis
For example, George needs $3000 per month to pay his bills and he EARNS that same amount from his...

What do summer analysts actually do?I've never actually had a chance to be in this much coveted position that we call "Summer Analyst", and probably won't at this point. I understand that the role of a summer analyst in ibanking...

Superday w/ Paper ModelingHi everyone,
I am currently interviewing for RBC Houston and will be having a super day next week. I have two years experience in investment management so I'm assuming this isn't an entry-level role...

Thoughts on these Ferragamo Loafers?Thinking of picking up my first pair of ferragamo loafers and was wondering what you guys thought on these in brown?http://shop.nordstrom.com/s/salvatore-ferragamo-mu...
or these is black?http://www1...

The growing perpetuity calculation in DCFHey, guys. I am a pre-MBA student. I studied one corporate finance class in law school so my question may seem too plain and simple. I was reading the DCF and noted that the calculation of the...

7 Things I Learned While Running a BusinessThought some of you may enjoy reading this. For the last 1-2 years, I've been running an editing service as a side gig. I probably won't operate it for too much longer because my regular job takes...

Transitioning from Operations to Asset Management I'm a recent finance graduate from a Canadian University, and graduated this year (3.1/4.0 GPA). I'm currently working at a large investment management/custody bank in investment servicing for mutual...

From generalist to consumer retailHi, I wold like to move from a generalist M&A boutique into a firm focused on consumer and retail. Can you suggest me any publication , book, modeling course to gain the knowledge to get prepared...

Summer internships in AMHi I would like to know how the recruitment process is in AM for summer (I am interested in London) and what typical part of interns get a FT offer after the summer

Soho (NYC) SubletTo anyone in need of an apartment / roommate, I've got a furnished bedroom in my apartment available. Shoot me a PM if interested. The Craigslist post below has the details.http://newyork....

Why I Enjoy Networking with CandidatesI thought I'd write a networking post from a different perspective. We often see advice on WSO from people who are undergrads or recent hires with advice on how to network into the industry (good...

CFAIf working in commodities which is becoming streamlined and narrowed as a broker / trader, how valuable will the CFA be. Understand its v broad therefore it would provide an in depth financial...