JRA, reading that would make one think that Lars was some kind of evil mastermind who planned the Black Album from the beginning and manipulated Cliff into slowly changing Metallica into a band that could reasonably make a record like that. Lars was honestly just a spoiled NWOBHM obsessed nerd back then. Did he get greedy around the time of the Black Album? Probably, yeah. But conspiring to tailor Metallica into a radio band by manipulating Cliff from the beginning? I mean seriously, what? ...And Justice for All wouldn't exist if that were the case at all. And honestly, I'm not even gonna bother with whether Cliff living would have been good for the band or not, and frankly it's seriously irrelevant. The Black Album was inevitable, with or without Cliff. Everyone here would probably agree that James and Lars aren't the strongest songwriters around, hell they ripped themselves off two albums in a row. They were bound to reach the end of their capabilities as thrash songwriters sometime, and The Black Album was the result of that.

And yes, compared to about a few dozen other thrash albums, Master of Puppets is mediocre. But you know what? It's also got a ton of really catchy melodies. Melodies that were, and are, a whole lot easier for kids discovering heavy metal for the first time to get into than fucking Angel of Death. Metallica made heavier music palatable to literally millions of kids across the world. I don't know if you've ever watched the news dude, but in case you didn't know, Americans are fucking morons. Like a frightening number of us are total fucking idiots. If something is too freakish or weird, we will ignore and dismiss it without giving it a fair chance. Most of us can't handle or accept shit like Pleasure to Kill, Reign in Blood, or Darkness Descends without something to ease us in beforehand. For a few million kids, that was Metallica. Who honestly gives a shit that Master of Puppets is given a ton of accolades? Seriously, why does anyone care? If anything, I hope that Master of Puppets will continue to get more praise from the mainstream media and that the Black Album sells a buttload of copies every year. If it means that more kids listen to heavier music and think "Hey, I like this, I want to check more of this stuff out," then it is absolutely worth it. So many people I know who are into extreme music connected with Metallica as their first 'heavier than Sabbath/Ozzy/Maiden' band, that alone makes those albums worth their existence in metal history.

"But they don't deserve to be in the top 4 of whatever list!" Who gives a shit dude? Of course there's cooler music out there, there always will be. It's on the music fan to always be seeking and hunting for more interesting and more satisfying music. The more dedicated and open minded folks will be rewarded with cool new sounds; that would be us, the guys who discovered all these amazing bands that make Metallica appear mediocre by comparison. Can't we just be happy with that and allow people to enjoy and praise Master of Puppets if they see fit to do so? In your own words dude, music doesn't exist in a vacuum.

JRA, reading that would make one think that Lars was some kind of evil mastermind who planned the Black Album from the beginning and manipulated Cliff into slowly changing Metallica into a band that could reasonably make a record like that. Lars was honestly just a spoiled NWOBHM obsessed nerd back then. Did he get greedy around the time of the Black Album? Probably, yeah. But conspiring to tailor Metallica into a radio band by manipulating Cliff from the beginning? I mean seriously, what? ...And Justice for All wouldn't exist if that were the case at all. And honestly, I'm not even gonna bother with whether Cliff living would have been good for the band or not, and frankly it's seriously irrelevant. The Black Album was inevitable, with or without Cliff. Everyone here would probably agree that James and Lars aren't the strongest songwriters around, hell they ripped themselves off two albums in a row. They were bound to reach the end of their capabilities as thrash songwriters sometime, and The Black Album was the result of that.

And yes, compared to about a few dozen other thrash albums, Master of Puppets is mediocre. But you know what? It's also got a ton of really catchy melodies. Melodies that were, and are, a whole lot easier for kids discovering heavy metal for the first time to get into than fucking Angel of Death. Metallica made heavier music palatable to literally millions of kids across the world. I don't know if you've ever watched the news dude, but in case you didn't know, Americans are fucking morons. Like a frightening number of us are total fucking idiots. If something is too freakish or weird, we will ignore and dismiss it without giving it a fair chance. Most of us can't handle or accept shit like Pleasure to Kill, Reign in Blood, or Darkness Descends without something to ease us in beforehand. For a few million kids, that was Metallica. Who honestly gives a shit that Master of Puppets is given a ton of accolades? Seriously, why does anyone care? If anything, I hope that Master of Puppets will continue to get more praise from the mainstream media and that the Black Album sells a buttload of copies every year. If it means that more kids listen to heavier music and think "Hey, I like this, I want to check more of this stuff out," then it is absolutely worth it. So many people I know who are into extreme music connected with Metallica as their first 'heavier than Sabbath/Ozzy/Maiden' band, that alone makes those albums worth their existence in metal history.

"But they don't deserve to be in the top 4 of whatever list!" Who gives a shit dude? Of course there's cooler music out there, there always will be. It's on the music fan to always be seeking and hunting for more interesting and more satisfying music. The more dedicated and open minded folks will be rewarded with cool new sounds; that would be us, the guys who discovered all these amazing bands that make Metallica appear mediocre by comparison. Can't we just be happy with that and allow people to enjoy and praise Master of Puppets if they see fit to do so? In your own words dude, music doesn't exist in a vacuum.

JRA, reading that would make one think that Lars was some kind of evil mastermind who planned the Black Album from the beginning and manipulated Cliff into slowly changing Metallica into a band that could reasonably make a record like that. Lars was honestly just a spoiled NWOBHM obsessed nerd back then. Did he get greedy around the time of the Black Album? Probably, yeah. But conspiring to tailor Metallica into a radio band by manipulating Cliff from the beginning? I mean seriously, what? ...And Justice for All wouldn't exist if that were the case at all. And honestly, I'm not even gonna bother with whether Cliff living would have been good for the band or not, and frankly it's seriously irrelevant. The Black Album was inevitable, with or without Cliff. Everyone here would probably agree that James and Lars aren't the strongest songwriters around, hell they ripped themselves off two albums in a row. They were bound to reach the end of their capabilities as thrash songwriters sometime, and The Black Album was the result of that.

And yes, compared to about a few dozen other thrash albums, Master of Puppets is mediocre. But you know what? It's also got a ton of really catchy melodies. Melodies that were, and are, a whole lot easier for kids discovering heavy metal for the first time to get into than fucking Angel of Death. Metallica made heavier music palatable to literally millions of kids across the world. I don't know if you've ever watched the news dude, but in case you didn't know, Americans are fucking morons. Like a frightening number of us are total fucking idiots. If something is too freakish or weird, we will ignore and dismiss it without giving it a fair chance. Most of us can't handle or accept shit like Pleasure to Kill, Reign in Blood, or Darkness Descends without something to ease us in beforehand. For a few million kids, that was Metallica. Who honestly gives a shit that Master of Puppets is given a ton of accolades? Seriously, why does anyone care? If anything, I hope that Master of Puppets will continue to get more praise from the mainstream media and that the Black Album sells a buttload of copies every year. If it means that more kids listen to heavier music and think "Hey, I like this, I want to check more of this stuff out," then it is absolutely worth it. So many people I know who are into extreme music connected with Metallica as their first 'heavier than Sabbath/Ozzy/Maiden' band, that alone makes those albums worth their existence in metal history.

"But they don't deserve to be in the top 4 of whatever list!" Who gives a shit dude? Of course there's cooler music out there, there always will be. It's on the music fan to always be seeking and hunting for more interesting and more satisfying music. The more dedicated and open minded folks will be rewarded with cool new sounds; that would be us, the guys who discovered all these amazing bands that make Metallica appear mediocre by comparison. Can't we just be happy with that and allow people to enjoy and praise Master of Puppets if they see fit to do so? In your own words dude, music doesn't exist in a vacuum.

Forgive me, I never meant to imply that Lars manipulated Cliff. What I meant to say was he pushed for more and more of Cliffs hippie rock ideals when he really shouldn't have. Also, El Gordo asked me to comment, so I did. That comment was a little longer than I hoped it to be. and if the mass public ignore something because its too extreme I'd honestly rather not have them in the club than come in through some phony gateway that's not supposed to be what the genre is about at all. While I don't quite think Master of Puppets is that, its relatively bottom on the list.

Personally I think Anthrax, possibly even Megadeth serve as much better gateway bands to more extreme music than Master of Puppets. At least in the case of the former there's singing so there's that familiar element if you're coming from Maiden/Ozzy etc. There's also Ride The Lightning, but most of you knew that.

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He's like "yo give me yo insurance information!" and I'm like "I didn't hit you with no car, I hit you with this mack truck I call a fist!"

May you go marching in three-measure time, dressed up as asses and drunk to the nines...

Join Date: Jul 2010

Location: Ontario, CANADA

Posts: 1,914

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRA

It's astounding to me how I've been one of the few people to understand this essay all these years.

I understand it perfectly. I just don't agree with most of it. I thought about giving Puppets a mediocre score because there are points that I do agree with. What Metallica have become also inevitably taints my opinion of their past work, but I try to avoid thinking that way. Bottom line is that when I threw the album on I enjoyed the hell out of it, front to back. I can't say it's a bad or mediocre album, because to my ears, it's not. Anyway, it's painfully clear that you've thought much more about it than I have or ever will, so I won't comment further.

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I love inside jokes, I'd love to be a part of one some day.

I can't believe how people can get into these massive essays on albums they love. I write a write-up on an album and it usually consists of "I like this album, the guitars are good, this is the best song". And you have to imagine Cletus from the Simpsons reading it to you.

I understand it perfectly. I just don't agree with most of it. I thought about giving Puppets a mediocre score because there are points that I do agree with. What Metallica have become also inevitably taints my opinion of their past work, but I try to avoid thinking that way. Bottom line is that when I threw the album on I enjoyed the hell out of it, front to back. I can't say it's a bad or mediocre album, because to my ears, it's not. Anyway, it's painfully clear that you've thought much more about it than I have or ever will, so I won't comment further.

In any case I think we've come to a mutual understanding. I'm looking forward to the writeups on Pleasure To Kill and Darkness Descends.

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He's like "yo give me yo insurance information!" and I'm like "I didn't hit you with no car, I hit you with this mack truck I call a fist!"

I can't believe how people can get into these massive essays on albums they love. I write a write-up on an album and it usually consists of "I like this album, the guitars are good, this is the best song".

I'm glad you guys are so passionate.

This is what I usually do, every now and then I'll do a review that's like 6-9 sentences.What I'm trying to say is I'm not a good album reviewer, unlike these guys.