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You hold them up as a model and then refuse to discuss it once it is stated they really support capitalism and development.

Quoting krysstizzle:

Whining? Our current energy sources are not going to last forever, no matter how often youand repeat it.

And im not going to debate capitalism, my mind was made up on this a while back. If it gets changed, it wont be from a discussion here.

Quoting talia-mom:

And yet they heavily support capitalism and use their natural resources to make money without people whining about finding green energy.

Really, look at their countries. They don't have the regulations on businesses that we do here. They do well precisely because they do allow businesses to flourish.

Quoting krysstizzle:

Oh, I intensely dislike capitalism, I think it's a system that rewards greediness.

But I also recognize that this is the reality we live in, and we should do our best to continually make a better system. I think we'll have to revision an economic system that makes sense in a large-scale, globalized world. And im honestly not sure what that will look like, exactly. The scandanavian countries are doing pretty well with democratic socialism. *shrug* there are also a lot of differences between us and them, however.

I do know that extreme wealth inequality as we have here is not good for a stable, healthy society. We need to rethink, imo. But, like I said, im just not sure at all what that will look like.

Quoting Paperfishies:

What system is fucked up and flawed?

What would your solution be?

Quoting krysstizzle:

For what it's worth, I don't think you're a shithead :)

I do, however, think wealth inequality is a serious issues with serious consequences in society that will lead to big problems. I think the system is fucked up and flawed.

Quoting furbabymum:

Well my DH and I are working hard toward our first million so I hope people don't think I'm a shit head for working hard and saving.

IMO, it's a matter of opinion. Anymore there really isn't a middle class (if you go by peoples opinions and thoughts). My mom and dad make close to $80,000 a year, but if you ask them, they are poor. Probably becuase my mom doesn't have the house she wants with the fountain in the entryway and yada yada yada. But then there's me, who makes less than $20,000 a year that views them as very wealthy. It's all a matter of opinion and I'm slowly beginning to learn that a person can either a)Accept this and realize that it will never change. OR b) Change it...

Brent Jacob

Jazmyn Rose
I am a caring, loving, single mom of two beautiful kids. I firmly believe in the Law of Attraction and I try to help others that believe the same. Come check out our group "Finding the Secret" to find out more http://www.cafemom.com/group/118498.

Is that your strawman tactic? Cling to the argument that no one is making?

No one has suggested that the rich need to pay at least 50% or more. Again. I am just saying they shouldn't be paying lower than the people in the bottom brackets.

Being rich doesn't make them above what other people have to pay.

Have you ever stopped to wonder why people get money back? Should we just say, "Screw em" And let the poorer and middle class slip further and further away? And let's not forget the middle class. Not all of them get money back (Depending where they are). And some of them pay tax rates twice as high as people at the very top.

Why should the people at the very top get to pay a tax rate that is half of what the people in the middle pay?

Quoting talia-mom:

It's fucking bullshit to say they pay less than the lowest bracket when they don't fucking pay federal or state income taxes because they get it all back and usually more.\

But yeah, the rich are wrong because they don't have to pay at least 50% or more in federal and state income taxes.

Quoting brookiecookie87:

Your assertion is wrong.

I never claimed to know what you believe. You made an outrageous caricature then told me that you believe some people think those people need to pay more.

They currently pay less than people in the bottom tax brackets. So yes. They need to pay more. The people at the very top shouldn't be paying less than the people at the bottom, and corporations making billions shouldn't be paying 0%.

I never suggested and no one I know has suggested that they pay 50% or more.

Unless you are talking about France. I heard about them thinking about raising taxes at above a million (I think it was a million I could be wrong) higher than 50%.

Quoting talia-mom:

Your problem is you think I believe the rich shouldn't pay taxes. No, but I don't think they need to pay 50%or more and I am good with where capital gains are because without them, these poorest people aren't going to have the kinds of jobs that are often created by those with them.

Quoting brookiecookie87:

Spare me your accusations.

I read plenty. I would tell those people to read as well. Perhaps an economics book. Maybe a book about capitalism.

So they can understand that everyone needs to pay their fair share. And that if all the money is stuck at the top 0.0001% there is going to be a point where no amount of taxes will get the bottom to cover for the top.

Just because they make more money than other people will ever make in their entire lives doesn't mean they should pay less in taxes. And the less money that the bottom and middle class has the worst that the economy is going to be.

Quoting talia-mom:

Then you don't read much.

Many people in this country think it isn't fair if they have that much and they need to pay more.

Quoting brookiecookie87:

You do realize almost no one says anything like that?

I am about as far liberal as you can go when it comes to economics and I don't say that, nor do any of my friends.

We do point out the Inequality when the GOP/Republicans try to hold 98% of America Hostage so the top 2% can keep their tax cuts/loopholes.

I do have a problem with the GOP/Republicans who try to raise taxes on the lower 97% percant of America so they can keep the taxes on the top 2% low.

I do understand how Capitalism works. And that it functions best and most smoothly when the middle class is strong and big. Right now we are so screwed that you can be in the top 97% of our country and be considered middle class.

It's not that the middle class is shrinking it's that it is losing buying power because all the money is being bundled up at the very top.

And for some odd reason the people at the very top have tax rates lower than that of the people at the bottom and some corporations pay 0% taxes.

Quoting talia-mom:

PAY YOUR FAIR SHARE! YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE THAT WHEN OTHERS CAN'T!

Quoting furbabymum:

Well my DH and I are working hard toward our first million so I hope people don't think I'm a shit head for working hard and saving.

You are talking past each other. Everyone should pay his fair share. No one should pay way more than his fair share. 50% of income is not a fair share by any standards.

Those at the top should pay a fair share, as well, which, of course, would be a whopping amount but still proportional.

She isn't saying that rich people shouldn't pay taxes.

Quoting brookiecookie87:

Spare me your accusations.

I read plenty. I would tell those people to read as well. Perhaps an economics book. Maybe a book about capitalism.

So they can understand that everyone needs to pay their fair share. And that if all the money is stuck at the top 0.0001% there is going to be a point where no amount of taxes will get the bottom to cover for the top.

Just because they make more money than other people will ever make in their entire lives doesn't mean they should pay less in taxes. And the less money that the bottom and middle class has the worst that the economy is going to be.

Quoting talia-mom:

Then you don't read much.

Many people in this country think it isn't fair if they have that much and they need to pay more.

Quoting brookiecookie87:

You do realize almost no one says anything like that?

I am about as far liberal as you can go when it comes to economics and I don't say that, nor do any of my friends.

We do point out the Inequality when the GOP/Republicans try to hold 98% of America Hostage so the top 2% can keep their tax cuts/loopholes.

I do have a problem with the GOP/Republicans who try to raise taxes on the lower 97% percant of America so they can keep the taxes on the top 2% low.

I do understand how Capitalism works. And that it functions best and most smoothly when the middle class is strong and big. Right now we are so screwed that you can be in the top 97% of our country and be considered middle class.

It's not that the middle class is shrinking it's that it is losing buying power because all the money is being bundled up at the very top.

And for some odd reason the people at the very top have tax rates lower than that of the people at the bottom and some corporations pay 0% taxes.

Quoting talia-mom:

PAY YOUR FAIR SHARE! YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE THAT WHEN OTHERS CAN'T!

Quoting furbabymum:

Well my DH and I are working hard toward our first million so I hope people don't think I'm a shit head for working hard and saving.

No one should get money back. What you pay is what you pay and it funds the government that so many depend on.

The middle class people you are defending do not pay federal rates twice what the richest people do and it is lie to say so.

The middle class doesn't pay 30-35% in federal taxes.

Quoting brookiecookie87:

Is that your strawman tactic? Cling to the argument that no one is making?

No one has suggested that the rich need to pay at least 50% or more. Again. I am just saying they shouldn't be paying lower than the people in the bottom brackets.

Being rich doesn't make them above what other people have to pay.

Have you ever stopped to wonder why people get money back? Should we just say, "Screw em" And let the poorer and middle class slip further and further away? And let's not forget the middle class. Not all of them get money back (Depending where they are). And some of them pay tax rates twice as high as people at the very top.

Why should the people at the very top get to pay a tax rate that is half of what the people in the middle pay?

Quoting talia-mom:

It's fucking bullshit to say they pay less than the lowest bracket when they don't fucking pay federal or state income taxes because they get it all back and usually more.\

But yeah, the rich are wrong because they don't have to pay at least 50% or more in federal and state income taxes.

Quoting brookiecookie87:

Your assertion is wrong.

I never claimed to know what you believe. You made an outrageous caricature then told me that you believe some people think those people need to pay more.

They currently pay less than people in the bottom tax brackets. So yes. They need to pay more. The people at the very top shouldn't be paying less than the people at the bottom, and corporations making billions shouldn't be paying 0%.

I never suggested and no one I know has suggested that they pay 50% or more.

Unless you are talking about France. I heard about them thinking about raising taxes at above a million (I think it was a million I could be wrong) higher than 50%.

Quoting talia-mom:

Your problem is you think I believe the rich shouldn't pay taxes. No, but I don't think they need to pay 50%or more and I am good with where capital gains are because without them, these poorest people aren't going to have the kinds of jobs that are often created by those with them.

Quoting brookiecookie87:

Spare me your accusations.

I read plenty. I would tell those people to read as well. Perhaps an economics book. Maybe a book about capitalism.

So they can understand that everyone needs to pay their fair share. And that if all the money is stuck at the top 0.0001% there is going to be a point where no amount of taxes will get the bottom to cover for the top.

Just because they make more money than other people will ever make in their entire lives doesn't mean they should pay less in taxes. And the less money that the bottom and middle class has the worst that the economy is going to be.

Quoting talia-mom:

Then you don't read much.

Many people in this country think it isn't fair if they have that much and they need to pay more.

Quoting brookiecookie87:

You do realize almost no one says anything like that?

I am about as far liberal as you can go when it comes to economics and I don't say that, nor do any of my friends.

We do point out the Inequality when the GOP/Republicans try to hold 98% of America Hostage so the top 2% can keep their tax cuts/loopholes.

I do have a problem with the GOP/Republicans who try to raise taxes on the lower 97% percant of America so they can keep the taxes on the top 2% low.

I do understand how Capitalism works. And that it functions best and most smoothly when the middle class is strong and big. Right now we are so screwed that you can be in the top 97% of our country and be considered middle class.

It's not that the middle class is shrinking it's that it is losing buying power because all the money is being bundled up at the very top.

And for some odd reason the people at the very top have tax rates lower than that of the people at the bottom and some corporations pay 0% taxes.

Quoting talia-mom:

PAY YOUR FAIR SHARE! YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE THAT WHEN OTHERS CAN'T!

Quoting furbabymum:

Well my DH and I are working hard toward our first million so I hope people don't think I'm a shit head for working hard and saving.

So you are going to tell me that no one pays between 30-35% while people who are in the Ultra rich pay between 10-15%?

You will notice that I said middle class. Please don't switch my words to try and make a statement I never made.

Quoting talia-mom:

No one should get money back. What you pay is what you pay and it funds the government that so many depend on.

The poor people you are defending do not pay federal rates twice what the richest people do and it is lie to say so.

Quoting brookiecookie87:

Is that your strawman tactic? Cling to the argument that no one is making?

No one has suggested that the rich need to pay at least 50% or more. Again. I am just saying they shouldn't be paying lower than the people in the bottom brackets.

Being rich doesn't make them above what other people have to pay.

Have you ever stopped to wonder why people get money back? Should we just say, "Screw em" And let the poorer and middle class slip further and further away? And let's not forget the middle class. Not all of them get money back (Depending where they are). And some of them pay tax rates twice as high as people at the very top.

Why should the people at the very top get to pay a tax rate that is half of what the people in the middle pay?

Quoting talia-mom:

It's fucking bullshit to say they pay less than the lowest bracket when they don't fucking pay federal or state income taxes because they get it all back and usually more.\

But yeah, the rich are wrong because they don't have to pay at least 50% or more in federal and state income taxes.

Quoting brookiecookie87:

Your assertion is wrong.

I never claimed to know what you believe. You made an outrageous caricature then told me that you believe some people think those people need to pay more.

They currently pay less than people in the bottom tax brackets. So yes. They need to pay more. The people at the very top shouldn't be paying less than the people at the bottom, and corporations making billions shouldn't be paying 0%.

I never suggested and no one I know has suggested that they pay 50% or more.

Unless you are talking about France. I heard about them thinking about raising taxes at above a million (I think it was a million I could be wrong) higher than 50%.

Quoting talia-mom:

Your problem is you think I believe the rich shouldn't pay taxes. No, but I don't think they need to pay 50%or more and I am good with where capital gains are because without them, these poorest people aren't going to have the kinds of jobs that are often created by those with them.

Quoting brookiecookie87:

Spare me your accusations.

I read plenty. I would tell those people to read as well. Perhaps an economics book. Maybe a book about capitalism.

So they can understand that everyone needs to pay their fair share. And that if all the money is stuck at the top 0.0001% there is going to be a point where no amount of taxes will get the bottom to cover for the top.

Just because they make more money than other people will ever make in their entire lives doesn't mean they should pay less in taxes. And the less money that the bottom and middle class has the worst that the economy is going to be.

Quoting talia-mom:

Then you don't read much.

Many people in this country think it isn't fair if they have that much and they need to pay more.

Quoting brookiecookie87:

You do realize almost no one says anything like that?

I am about as far liberal as you can go when it comes to economics and I don't say that, nor do any of my friends.

We do point out the Inequality when the GOP/Republicans try to hold 98% of America Hostage so the top 2% can keep their tax cuts/loopholes.

I do have a problem with the GOP/Republicans who try to raise taxes on the lower 97% percant of America so they can keep the taxes on the top 2% low.

I do understand how Capitalism works. And that it functions best and most smoothly when the middle class is strong and big. Right now we are so screwed that you can be in the top 97% of our country and be considered middle class.

It's not that the middle class is shrinking it's that it is losing buying power because all the money is being bundled up at the very top.

And for some odd reason the people at the very top have tax rates lower than that of the people at the bottom and some corporations pay 0% taxes.

Quoting talia-mom:

PAY YOUR FAIR SHARE! YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE THAT WHEN OTHERS CAN'T!

Quoting furbabymum:

Well my DH and I are working hard toward our first million so I hope people don't think I'm a shit head for working hard and saving.

And I changed it to say middle class sweetie. They don't pay 30% of their income in federal taxes.

So once again, you are incorrect in saying those that live off capital gains pay way less than everyone else.

They don't.

But if you want to make everything equal, I am good with all people paying 25% in federal income taxes and no refunds or deductions.

Quoting brookiecookie87:

So you are going to tell me that no one pays between 30-35% while people who are in the Ultra rich pay between 10-15%?

You will notice that I said middle class. Please don't switch my words to try and make a statement I never made.

Quoting talia-mom:

No one should get money back. What you pay is what you pay and it funds the government that so many depend on.

The poor people you are defending do not pay federal rates twice what the richest people do and it is lie to say so.

Quoting brookiecookie87:

Is that your strawman tactic? Cling to the argument that no one is making?

No one has suggested that the rich need to pay at least 50% or more. Again. I am just saying they shouldn't be paying lower than the people in the bottom brackets.

Being rich doesn't make them above what other people have to pay.

Have you ever stopped to wonder why people get money back? Should we just say, "Screw em" And let the poorer and middle class slip further and further away? And let's not forget the middle class. Not all of them get money back (Depending where they are). And some of them pay tax rates twice as high as people at the very top.

Why should the people at the very top get to pay a tax rate that is half of what the people in the middle pay?

Quoting talia-mom:

It's fucking bullshit to say they pay less than the lowest bracket when they don't fucking pay federal or state income taxes because they get it all back and usually more.\

But yeah, the rich are wrong because they don't have to pay at least 50% or more in federal and state income taxes.

Quoting brookiecookie87:

Your assertion is wrong.

I never claimed to know what you believe. You made an outrageous caricature then told me that you believe some people think those people need to pay more.

They currently pay less than people in the bottom tax brackets. So yes. They need to pay more. The people at the very top shouldn't be paying less than the people at the bottom, and corporations making billions shouldn't be paying 0%.

I never suggested and no one I know has suggested that they pay 50% or more.

Unless you are talking about France. I heard about them thinking about raising taxes at above a million (I think it was a million I could be wrong) higher than 50%.

Quoting talia-mom:

Your problem is you think I believe the rich shouldn't pay taxes. No, but I don't think they need to pay 50%or more and I am good with where capital gains are because without them, these poorest people aren't going to have the kinds of jobs that are often created by those with them.

Quoting brookiecookie87:

Spare me your accusations.

I read plenty. I would tell those people to read as well. Perhaps an economics book. Maybe a book about capitalism.

So they can understand that everyone needs to pay their fair share. And that if all the money is stuck at the top 0.0001% there is going to be a point where no amount of taxes will get the bottom to cover for the top.

Just because they make more money than other people will ever make in their entire lives doesn't mean they should pay less in taxes. And the less money that the bottom and middle class has the worst that the economy is going to be.

Quoting talia-mom:

Then you don't read much.

Many people in this country think it isn't fair if they have that much and they need to pay more.

Quoting brookiecookie87:

You do realize almost no one says anything like that?

I am about as far liberal as you can go when it comes to economics and I don't say that, nor do any of my friends.

We do point out the Inequality when the GOP/Republicans try to hold 98% of America Hostage so the top 2% can keep their tax cuts/loopholes.

I do have a problem with the GOP/Republicans who try to raise taxes on the lower 97% percant of America so they can keep the taxes on the top 2% low.

I do understand how Capitalism works. And that it functions best and most smoothly when the middle class is strong and big. Right now we are so screwed that you can be in the top 97% of our country and be considered middle class.

It's not that the middle class is shrinking it's that it is losing buying power because all the money is being bundled up at the very top.

And for some odd reason the people at the very top have tax rates lower than that of the people at the bottom and some corporations pay 0% taxes.

Quoting talia-mom:

PAY YOUR FAIR SHARE! YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE THAT WHEN OTHERS CAN'T!

Quoting furbabymum:

Well my DH and I are working hard toward our first million so I hope people don't think I'm a shit head for working hard and saving.

You are. You are a slimy shithead for having more than anybody else. You do not deserve to have more no matter how much harder you may be working than some less financially fortunate. But! You must continue to bust your butt so the poor can benefit from the huge taxes you pay

Quoting furbabymum:

Well my DH and I are working hard toward our first million so I hope people don't think I'm a shit head for working hard and saving.

Oh, I intensely dislike capitalism, I think it's a system that rewards greediness.

But I also recognize that this is the reality we live in, and we should do our best to continually make a better system. I think we'll have to revision an economic system that makes sense in a large-scale, globalized world. And im honestly not sure what that will look like, exactly. The scandanavian countries are doing pretty well with democratic socialism. *shrug* there are also a lot of differences between us and them, however.

I do know that extreme wealth inequality as we have here is not good for a stable, healthy society. We need to rethink, imo. But, like I said, im just not sure at all what that will look like.

Quoting Paperfishies:

What system is fucked up and flawed?

What would your solution be?

Quoting krysstizzle:

For what it's worth, I don't think you're a shithead :)

I do, however, think wealth inequality is a serious issues with serious consequences in society that will lead to big problems. I think the system is fucked up and flawed.

Quoting furbabymum:

Well my DH and I are working hard toward our first million so I hope people don't think I'm a shit head for working hard and saving.

When wealth is concentrated at the very top like it is today, lots of bad shit happens. Those at the very top could pay 70% or 75% of the money they "earn" and still live a life of luxury we can only dream of.

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