There's been some recent confusion with the old spoiler thread, so I'm kicking off a new one for tonight's premiere. This is going to be the one for folks who've read all the books. So anything anybody might want to talk about is in bounds. Suffice to say, if you haven't read the books, you'll probably want to stay out of here until you do...

I'll bump the old spoiler-free thread shortly in case anybody's interested. For future reference the link to that one is here

I haven't watched yet, but I'm disliking what I've heard of the Catelyn conversation about Jon Snow. I understand trying to flesh her out a bit, but it just doesn't ring true for the way she's treated him and such, to me. Jon Snow was always her "shame," and I don't buy that she nursed him and prayed for him and such.

Of course, my perception may just be colored by the way my coworker (a huge GRRM fanboy and hyper critical dude) described it. He didn't like it, but I may like it when I actually see it.

__________________In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican.
- H. L. Mencken

I haven't watched yet, but I'm disliking what I've heard of the Catelyn conversation about Jon Snow. I understand trying to flesh her out a bit, but it just doesn't ring true for the way she's treated him and such, to me. Jon Snow was always her "shame," and I don't buy that she nursed him and prayed for him and such.

Of course, my perception may just be colored by the way my coworker (a huge GRRM fanboy and hyper critical dude) described it. He didn't like it, but I may like it when I actually see it.

I wasn't happy with that scene as it was happening, but what she says at the end kind of saves it.

That Catelyn scene caught me off guard a bit when it happened. But I think your co-worker might have missed the end of it or something because what she says is:

1) She prayed for Jon to die because he wasn't hers and she was bitter and angry,
2) Then he got very sick, and she thought it was her fault for praying for his death (clearly she thinks her prayers have influence), so she felt guilty and prayed for him to live and promised she would love him and treat him as her own if he lived.
3) He did live, but she was unable to follow through and love him and treat him well even though he was an innocent, mother-less child (we already knew this part given how she treated him, this is what I mean about your co-worker not hearing that part)
4) She thinks the gods are punishing her family as a result of her not living up to what she promised them when she prayed for him to live and for her being too heartless and too big a bitch to love and treat an innocent baby well.

To me this painted her in a more sympathetic light because in the books she never showed any remorse for treating Jon badly. That will help TV audiences feel more upset when the RW happens, and the RW will be more impactful if they view her a litle more sympathetically than book readers. Seems they are playing up Robb and his wife more as well for that same reason.

So I think it rings true still on how she treated Jon, but not so much on how she felt about it because I never got any sense she felt guilty about it in the books. Of course here she only feels bad about it because she thinks it resulted in bad karma and problems for those in her family that she actually does love. She'd have no remorse abot it otherwise, I'm sure. She seems to actually think her bad acts resulted in bad karma. Little does she know what's coming!

The other main reason for having that scene in the show is to get viewers wondering who Jon Snow's mother is and to keep that topic in mind since they haven't dealt with it much like the books did.

That Catelyn scene caught me off guard a bit when it happened. But I think your co-worker might have missed the end of it or something because what she says is:

1) She prayed for Jon to die because he wasn't hers and she was bitter and angry,
2) Then he got very sick, and she thought it was her fault for praying for his death (clearly she thinks her prayers have influence), so she felt guilty and prayed for him to live and promised she would love him and treat him as her own if he lived.
3) He did live, but she was unable to follow through and love him and treat him well even though he was an innocent, mother-less child (we already knew this part given how she treated him, this is what I mean about your co-worker not hearing that part)
4) She thinks the gods are punishing her family as a result of her not living up to what she promised them when she prayed for him to live and for her being too heartless and too big a bitch to love and treat an innocent baby well.

To me this painted her in a more sympathetic light because in the books she never showed any remorse for treating Jon badly. That will help TV audiences feel more upset when the RW happens, and the RW will be more impactful if they view her a litle more sympathetically than book readers. Seems they are playing up Robb and his wife more as well for that same reason.

So I think it rings true still on how she treated Jon, but not so much on how she felt about it because I never got any sense she felt guilty about it in the books. Of course here she only feels bad about it because she thinks it resulted in bad karma and problems for those in her family that she actually does love. She'd have no remorse abot it otherwise, I'm sure. She seems to actually think her bad acts resulted in bad karma. Little does she know what's coming!

The other main reason for having that scene in the show is to get viewers wondering who Jon Snow's mother is and to keep that topic in mind since they haven't dealt with it much like the books did.

I read that she failed because she could not convince the king to give him the stark name.

I haven't watched yet, but I'm disliking what I've heard of the Catelyn conversation about Jon Snow. I understand trying to flesh her out a bit, but it just doesn't ring true for the way she's treated him and such, to me. Jon Snow was always her "shame," and I don't buy that she nursed him and prayed for him and such.

Of course, my perception may just be colored by the way my coworker (a huge GRRM fanboy and hyper critical dude) described it. He didn't like it, but I may like it when I actually see it.

I read that she failed because she could not convince the king to give him the stark name.

Hawk has it right I think. That is what I got out of it. She promised while praying to do the nice things like make him a Stark, which Ned totally would have done, then didn't do it and the seven are pissed. I thought it was new but not out of place, much like Cersei's first baby story.

The Queen of Thorns was awesome, loved her immediately. But the actress playing Margary is really hitting it out of the park IMO. That scene near the end with her and Joffrey was just so perfect. She manipulates everyone with such ease. She is going to be fun to watch. Especially her and Cersei as they go at it more and more. Great job making her character more interesting than in the books.

Couldn't agree with you more. It's a classic case of, "be careful what you wish for, because you may just get it..." She is more than a match for any of the Lannisters...very smart and cunning.

Hot as all hell but in an classy way and exceptionally talented. I loved her being cast as Margaery, but also feel like she's a little older than I had in my head. Then again, most of them are older than the books because frankly the show would otherwise be pretty damn creepy.

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