Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.

Times and dates in your local timezone.

Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.

I am in general fed up with the competitiveness of 40K and the balls to the wall release schedule GW has set that game on. My town has a new game store, for the first time which means no more driving to the big city to play games once a wee! I was wondering what information is very important to know before jumping into AoS. I ask this because a lot of the people here are buying into AoS instead of 40K. In fact, the store owner even said to me that AoS outsold Magic in his store two months running now by a factor of three to one. With such a strong community building up, the game being much more focused on melee combat, I am thinking now is the time to jump in.

There are three armies that interest me currently:

The Deepkin, Khorne Mortals, and the brand new Skeletons.

What should I know about the game, the state it is in, how easy it is to learn to play, etc before I go diving in?

So I did that, and I went ahead and bought the Basic Rule Book, Generals Handbook (2019). I have a small force of Stormcast and Khorne (Two of each of the SC boxes) that I'm hoping I can use to learn and then either trade up for other models later or sell when I'm ready to go all in.

One thing that has me really confused is the differences between "Grand Alliances" and "Battletomes" and I also am having trouble with the Realm rules and what they mean, how they are chosen and so on.

So I did that, and I went ahead and bought the Basic Rule Book, Generals Handbook (2019). I have a small force of Stormcast and Khorne (Two of each of the SC boxes) that I'm hoping I can use to learn and then either trade up for other models later or sell when I'm ready to go all in.

One thing that has me really confused is the differences between "Grand Alliances" and "Battletomes" and I also am having trouble with the Realm rules and what they mean, how they are chosen and so on.

Grand Alliances are one of four alliances of armies that are united in the lore and on the tabletop. Within each Grand Alliance you've got a myriad of armies, each with their own Battletome*. These armies operate fully on their own with their respective battletome. The Battletome contains the armies rules, allegiance abilities, spells, equipment, battalions and all.
Armies can also take up to 1/4 in points value of allies. These allies must come from forces listed on the last page in the battletome which details the allies that the faction has. These allies are all from the same grand alliance, but might not include all forces. Eg Daughters of Khaine cannot ally with Seraphon. Meanwhile Stormcast can ally with basically any Order faction

Now its also possible to form a Grand Alliance Army, which can take models from the whole Grand Alliance and has its own book as well. However these books were some of the first made and are very out of date right now. Basically if you don't own them don't bother as the concept or even the books are likely to get remade and they are not generally as good as making specific armies with allies.

Realm Rules are basically an expansion set of rules which adds to the core rules. They have various forms too. These might be rules that apply to the terrain on the table; giving you new equipment lists and also new spells. There are some core realm rules in the main book and the Malign Sorcery boxed set expands greatly on them, as well as giving you access to all the generic endless spells; another expansion of the rules. Note that of all these the Endless Spells are most typically considered a default auto-include (ergo most games will allow them). Realm rules are more varied in pick-up status so chat with your opponent beforehand. For tornaments the realm rules, if being used, are normally told before the event so that you can plan and prepare for them in mind.

*At this point in time not all have a battletome, however by the start of next year (based on current release speed) all should have them. Note that Orruks are being combined into a single tome (Orks basically) and Gutbusters and Beastclaw raiders are also being put into a single tome.

So I did that, and I went ahead and bought the Basic Rule Book, Generals Handbook (2019). I have a small force of Stormcast and Khorne (Two of each of the SC boxes) that I'm hoping I can use to learn and then either trade up for other models later or sell when I'm ready to go all in.

One thing that has me really confused is the differences between "Grand Alliances" and "Battletomes" and I also am having trouble with the Realm rules and what they mean, how they are chosen and so on.

Grand Alliances are one of four alliances of armies that are united in the lore and on the tabletop. Within each Grand Alliance you've got a myriad of armies, each with their own Battletome*. These armies operate fully on their own with their respective battletome. The Battletome contains the armies rules, allegiance abilities, spells, equipment, battalions and all.
Armies can also take up to 1/4 in points value of allies. These allies must come from forces listed on the last page in the battletome which details the allies that the faction has. These allies are all from the same grand alliance, but might not include all forces. Eg Daughters of Khaine cannot ally with Seraphon. Meanwhile Stormcast can ally with basically any Order faction

Now its also possible to form a Grand Alliance Army, which can take models from the whole Grand Alliance and has its own book as well. However these books were some of the first made and are very out of date right now. Basically if you don't own them don't bother as the concept or even the books are likely to get remade and they are not generally as good as making specific armies with allies.

Realm Rules are basically an expansion set of rules which adds to the core rules. They have various forms too. These might be rules that apply to the terrain on the table; giving you new equipment lists and also new spells. There are some core realm rules in the main book and the Malign Sorcery boxed set expands greatly on them, as well as giving you access to all the generic endless spells; another expansion of the rules. Note that of all these the Endless Spells are most typically considered a default auto-include (ergo most games will allow them). Realm rules are more varied in pick-up status so chat with your opponent beforehand. For tornaments the realm rules, if being used, are normally told before the event so that you can plan and prepare for them in mind.

*At this point in time not all have a battletome, however by the start of next year (based on current release speed) all should have them. Note that Orruks are being combined into a single tome (Orks basically) and Gutbusters and Beastclaw raiders are also being put into a single tome.

Thank you!

The new skeletons are really what interest me the most. I liked the idea of Nighthaunts, but they were too flimsy for me. I always feel like I will break them.

A big thing to never underestimate is that Stormcast are/were cheap from box splitting.

Are they running Liberators(shields+hammers/swords, no robes), Vanguard(crossbows+hand weapons/gryphons), or Sequitors(robes, shields+hammers/swords)? Cause all the various Stormcast stuff plays wildly different.

A lot of groups tend to have one major stand-out faction that is the majority, and it tends to be Stormcast Eternals. Just like Space Marines, they're the poster boys and one of the most expansive army rosters out there, eclipsed by only a few such as Skaven. One Stormcast list may look entirely different from another in some cases.

Rippy wrote:When you lose to a 7 year old, it's wise to not come and admit it and then try to blame the armies

Have you had a look at Warcry as well - its a bit like Killteam for 40K; only with a slightly more chaos twist as it happens within the Eightpoints; a place that Chaos has held onto and retains control over and has warped into a nightmare realm of living plants and bloody rains.

There's the warbands out for it which are all chaos, but many of the other regular armies have stats to appear there as well - the idea being that they are questing to secure some valuable relic from the times before; or to cut down a promising warband before they can join the legions etc....

The game set gives you two warbands and some chaos beasts as well as terrain, boards and all you need. The neat thing is terrain setup with the official boards and terrain is done through cards; pick the card at random and setup the terrain. Makes for fast games and can be a nice way to infill between major games; or if there's 3 of you without a game you can play several rounds of warcry instead etc... And because warbands are small and cheap to build you might coax some of the stormcast to trying out other forces.

Of course there's also AoS Champions which is a card game which has just released another expansion - again antoher great infill game

Kanluwen wrote:A big thing to never underestimate is that Stormcast are/were cheap from box splitting.

Are they running Liberators(shields+hammers/swords, no robes), Vanguard(crossbows+hand weapons/gryphons), or Sequitors(robes, shields+hammers/swords)? Cause all the various Stormcast stuff plays wildly different.

From what I can tell everyone is running mish-mash. I doubt any of us will be into competitive play, so expect army composition and lists to be highly varied. Most of our group left Magic because of deck/list building and how absurd it was getting.

1.) Melee > Ranged, by a large margin. Few things shoot beyond 18" and the next turn you're probably charged. You won't see gunline armies much. Units with ranged weapons can still fight in melee, but you only get one go at shooting per turn, but usually 2 goes at melee per turn, so most armies are melee. I say this as a Tzeentch player with lots of shooting that generally doesn't do a whole lot - the magic and summoning carries my army.

2.) AoS is a game of playing the objectives. In the small league we've been running locally I don't think we've seen a single table wipe, just concessions based on an impossible victory point lead. Play the objectives!

3.) Bodies is king - as in, having lots of wounds. In AoS a 4+ save is a good save and there's no Str vs Toughness, wounding is flat rolls and Mortal Wounds are common. One wound models die fast! Big units = durability and the ability to completely crump smaller units on the charge.

4.) Command Points are precious and must be used wisely. In 40k you might have 15+ CP. In AoS you'll probably have 1-2 per turn to use.

5.) Lots of armies do crazy gak that can easily blind-side you. 40K is a lot easier to predict how a battle will flow, unless you really know what every army can do. Good news is that the Warscrolls are all on-line for free, though that doesn't cover every trick every army can do, it helps. Study your opponent's army if you can!

6.) Units are bought in blocks of models (3, 5,10 and 20 being the most common blocks), unlike 40K where a unit can be any number of models from 5-10+. This makes list building a bit more challenging as the units are bigger blocks of points in most cases. There's no shaving points off or adding wargear to make the math fit better.

Kanluwen wrote:A big thing to never underestimate is that Stormcast are/were cheap from box splitting.

Are they running Liberators(shields+hammers/swords, no robes), Vanguard(crossbows+hand weapons/gryphons), or Sequitors(robes, shields+hammers/swords)? Cause all the various Stormcast stuff plays wildly different.

From what I can tell everyone is running mish-mash. I doubt any of us will be into competitive play, so expect army composition and lists to be highly varied. Most of our group left Magic because of deck/list building and how absurd it was getting.

Be wary for AOS is a game all about absurd deck/list building lol.

GW points don't bring balance. They exist purely for structure. You can get more balance from no points than you do from GW points. You however can get no structure in your game without points.

Yeah, AoS is more or less built around synergies. I think there's enough dice rolling to keep it sufficiently random though, your ex-magic players should be able to see the patterns fine.

John Prins wrote:6.) Units are bought in blocks of models (3, 5,10 and 20 being the most common blocks), unlike 40K where a unit can be any number of models from 5-10+. This makes list building a bit more challenging as the units are bigger blocks of points in most cases. There's no shaving points off or adding wargear to make the math fit better.

This is a very important point. Units are bought in increments of the smallest unit size regardless of how many you field.

A unit of dryads is 10 models minimum and can be up to 30. A unit of 10 dryads costs 100 points, a unit of 20 costs 200, naturally. But a unit of 11 dryads also costs 200 points, ditto for 12, 15, 19 dryads.

You also see bulk discounts for many full sized units. A unit of 30 dryads, for example costs 270 points.

This can lead to situations where you can free up 20 or 30 points by combining two units into one big one.

Kanluwen wrote:A big thing to never underestimate is that Stormcast are/were cheap from box splitting.

Are they running Liberators(shields+hammers/swords, no robes), Vanguard(crossbows+hand weapons/gryphons), or Sequitors(robes, shields+hammers/swords)? Cause all the various Stormcast stuff plays wildly different.

From what I can tell everyone is running mish-mash. I doubt any of us will be into competitive play, so expect army composition and lists to be highly varied. Most of our group left Magic because of deck/list building and how absurd it was getting.

Be wary for AOS is a game all about absurd deck/list building lol.

Can it be run in a more narrative style? A lot of the group wants to treat it almost like an RPG. Where we are encouraged to theme our armies, and each week we will play battles to determine outcomes on a map. Some are just looking for a good skirmish with friends too.

Kanluwen wrote:A big thing to never underestimate is that Stormcast are/were cheap from box splitting.

Are they running Liberators(shields+hammers/swords, no robes), Vanguard(crossbows+hand weapons/gryphons), or Sequitors(robes, shields+hammers/swords)? Cause all the various Stormcast stuff plays wildly different.

From what I can tell everyone is running mish-mash. I doubt any of us will be into competitive play, so expect army composition and lists to be highly varied. Most of our group left Magic because of deck/list building and how absurd it was getting.

Be wary for AOS is a game all about absurd deck/list building lol.

Can it be run in a more narrative style? A lot of the group wants to treat it almost like an RPG. Where we are encouraged to theme our armies, and each week we will play battles to determine outcomes on a map. Some are just looking for a good skirmish with friends too.

Yes yes it can.

Though your group also sounds like it would like Warcry which has some narrative elements built into it; though of course its skirmish based nor army based.

Kanluwen wrote:A big thing to never underestimate is that Stormcast are/were cheap from box splitting.

Are they running Liberators(shields+hammers/swords, no robes), Vanguard(crossbows+hand weapons/gryphons), or Sequitors(robes, shields+hammers/swords)? Cause all the various Stormcast stuff plays wildly different.

From what I can tell everyone is running mish-mash. I doubt any of us will be into competitive play, so expect army composition and lists to be highly varied. Most of our group left Magic because of deck/list building and how absurd it was getting.

Be wary for AOS is a game all about absurd deck/list building lol.

Can it be run in a more narrative style? A lot of the group wants to treat it almost like an RPG. Where we are encouraged to theme our armies, and each week we will play battles to determine outcomes on a map. Some are just looking for a good skirmish with friends too.

Yes yes it can.

Though your group also sounds like it would like Warcry which has some narrative elements built into it; though of course its skirmish based nor army based.

Warcry is cool, but we want big armies, I think there is a plan to try and do a huge mega battle in a couple of months. I'm guessing there is an Apoc equivalent for AoS?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

auticus wrote:It can run narratively but it will only take one guy bringing a powerlist to start the arms race and force the rest of the group to follow suit.

We're all refugees from those kinds of hobbies. None of us want to power game the system, so hopefully that won't be an issue for us.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/30 17:03:28

In general, AoS seems to be a little more laid back than 40k and the rules writers seem to be given more freedom. I would definitely play AoS rather than 40k.
I am more of a fantasy than SciFi fan though, so might be a little baised.

That said, I don't play any GW games anymore. I try not to be negative online, but I think this topic warrants a proper warning
AoS is still a GW game and subject to most of the things that made me sick of that company. Like: poorly written rules, even worse balance (games can be decided by which army you choose), constant release of new books the are technically optional but you need to stay up to date and realistically take part in an active community, power lists crushing everything, making money coming before having a good game, etc.

If you want to get away from the gakky things GW does then I would suggest looking at games from other companies.
Keep in mind that many of the people defending and enjoying GW don't play games form other companies, so don't realise how bad they actually are.

If you're enjoying it have fun though. GW games are certainly popular and easy to find opponent's for. I only dared sell off and get out of Warhammer (both) after I realised that Infinity is also popular enough to get games for in pretty much any major city.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/30 17:40:23

DarkBlack wrote:In general, AoS seems to be a little more laid back than 40k and the rules writers seem to be given more freedom. I would definitely play AoS rather than 40k.
I am more of a fantasy than SciFi fan though, so might be a little baised.

That said, I don't play any GW games anymore. I try not to be negative online, but I think this topic warrants a proper warning
AoS is still a GW game and subject to most of the things that made me sick of that company. Like: poorly written rules, even worse balance (games can be decided by which army you choose), constant release of new books the are technically optional but you need to stay up to date and realistically take part in an active community, power lists crushing everything, making money coming before having a good game, etc.

If you want to get away from the gakky things GW does then I would suggest looking at games from other companies.
Keep in mind that many of the people defending and enjoying GW don't play games form other companies, so don't realise how bad they actually are.

If you're enjoying it have fun though. GW games are certainly popular and easy to find opponent's for. I only dared sell off and get out of Warhammer (both) after I realised that Infinity is also popular enough to get games for in pretty much any major city.

I would likely be one of those. I consider myself a GW fanboi.

Hated Warmahordes, Infinity and in my local area it's GW or nothing. No one else plays any other games.

Though I did come into the store the other day, and to my shock some people were playing a game of MageKnight...

auticus wrote:It can run narratively but it will only take one guy bringing a powerlist to start the arms race and force the rest of the group to follow suit.

Or spark the vital discussion about how you as a group want to be playing.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Togusa wrote:[
Hated Warmahordes, Infinity and in my local area it's GW or nothing. No one else plays any other games.

Though I did come into the store the other day, and to my shock some people were playing a game of MageKnight...

That was a blast from the past.

Ah, so someone's open to playing other games. That's the chink in the GW armor right there. See, you're always spoon fed this myth that GW is everywhere (mostly true) & that it's all people play (BS). But you might be surprised at what's lurking in peoples closets/collections if you ask.
Don't force it, & definitely enjoy your foray into AoS (a better game than 40katmimo), but over time just see what else people have/might consider playing now & then. Helps if you've got enough of a favorite game to supply all sides for a few demos.

The thing I've found about miniature gaming over the years? People are attracted to cool looking minis being played with by people who're having fun. After that it starts splitting out to preferences of genre/manufacturer/rules(or rules editions)/etc. But that's just a negotiation about what exactly to play.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/31 08:52:07

ccs wrote:See, you're always spoon fed this myth that GW is everywhere (mostly true) & that it's all people play (BS). But you might be surprised at what's lurking in peoples closets/collections if you ask.

The thing I've found about miniature gaming over the years? People are attracted to cool looking minis being played with by people who're having fun. After that it starts splitting out to preferences of genre/manufacturer/rules(or rules editions)/etc. But that's just a negotiation about what exactly to play.

Path to Glory is a good start as Cronch said. Not only do you get some nice narrative elements going on you can also form the start of your collection around your rolls. If you can find them, the 5? Remlgate Wars books are fantastic. You get fluff, story, and missions all in one book. One of my favorite missions is from these books and centers on the defending army trying to run away from pursuers across an ice bridge. The defending player can attack the table and destroy part of it (you are supposed to remove part of the table/board if you can).

The new Generals Handbook has some fun narrative stuff as well like the Army Generator (best with a large collection) and Regiments of Renown that can give fluffy upgrades to units if you are playing a long-term campaign. They also introduced rules for fighting in a city which I'm looking forward to trying soon.

Don't overlook the BRB as well. While you don't necessarily need the BRB as the core rules are free, it does have good stuff in there. Rules for larger games with 2+ player teams, sieges (super fun), free-for-alls, and even an AoS version of Maelstrom of War if you're so inclined.

I would say, overall, if you are looking for a more laidback narrative style of game AoS is better at it then 40k.

There are some issues currently in AoS. Not all armies currently have a Battletome (codex). Not all armies have a "2.0" Battletome and there is significant differences in the way the older style Battletomes are done vs current

Yeah, but you set yourself up for failure if the reason you end up not liking AoS rests entirely on the way daemon armies play.

You're better off taking the time to pick an army you like (in terms of overall look, what you like to paint, how they play, etc) and either store or sell it off if you end up not liking AoS. Minimal fuss so long as you start small.

I don’t agree with the Daemon criticism. Don’t get me wrong, you are right that a mono Daemon army is “lacking” in 40k, if everyone played competitive then only a handful of armies would ever be played - but Nurgle Daemons for example have some strong uses in 40k, and thematically pair with Death Guard or any Chaos army easily. They’re also easy to paint up and quite good in AOS.

I am in general fed up with the competitiveness of 40K and the balls to the wall release schedule GW has set that game on. My town has a new game store, for the first time which means no more driving to the big city to play games once a wee! I was wondering what information is very important to know before jumping into AoS. I ask this because a lot of the people here are buying into AoS instead of 40K. In fact, the store owner even said to me that AoS outsold Magic in his store two months running now by a factor of three to one. With such a strong community building up, the game being much more focused on melee combat, I am thinking now is the time to jump in.

There are three armies that interest me currently:

The Deepkin, Khorne Mortals, and the brand new Skeletons.

What should I know about the game, the state it is in, how easy it is to learn to play, etc before I go diving in?

Welcome fellow refugee!

I was in the same boat as you. I have three 40k Armies, but I got really put off by the soup and knight spam, so I started branching into AOS.

The brand new Bonereapers are going to be quite cool I think! One of the nice things about Death, is the Aesthetic really flows together across the various armies (-Flesh eaters to an extent) This means it can be real easy to flow into other armies in the grand alliance. Their tome and army is likely going to be a two week release at the end of October, so you have some time to plan and think about what you want in the mean time.

Khorne mortals are also very cool, and have a very recent battletome. I think their endless "spells" are probably the best looking in the game!

The game overall is a lot of fun. The biggest gripe I think most people have currently is the possibility that you can be double turned, which isn't that fun to be on the receiving end of. Other than that, the game is pretty well balanced among battletome armies. There are a few armies slogging behind without tomes, but any army with a new tome will usually have several different playstyles and a great selection of spells, artifacts and other choices.

Overread covered several of the other salient points as well.

I would also suggest just ignoring auticus. He tends to be overly negative, and your experience will be enhanced on this board if you just ignore him.

TGA is also another great AOS resource, it's actually quite a bit more active on the AOS side than here. https://www.tga.community/forums/ A fun bonus is that Auticus is banned from there, so you don't have to worry about his posts showing up!