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Topic: YOU are Satan... (Read 40386 times)

Hi WillieH, thanks for your post and the grace you have shown in disagreement. Contrary to what one has said in the latter part of this thread, this conversation has been important and graciously conducted, particularly between you and me. It is refreshing when, rather than insults etc, people just present their opinions objectively.

We both have had a bit of a mirror opposite process in this issue. Whereas you once believed what I do, I once believed as you do. Along with all the other doctrines of hell, eternal torment, trinity etc, I was taught by my church people and even my mom, opposite to what I now believe.

That's ironic. But anyway, thanks for the conversation. Love you too bro.

trettep

No amount of further discussion shall find a change in either of us bro... You are welcome to believe as you do, and it is so ORDAINED that you do... just as my belief so ORDAINED to be as it presently, IS.

The biggest difference between us concerning this discussion, is that I once believed as DO you... that has changed...

I also once believed for a time, in (the false doctrines of) HELL, Annhilation, Separation from God, "accepting CHRIST", the "millennium, Easter, Sinner's prayers, "going to Heaven", fallen angels (to mention just a few)... Via prayer, study and time, ...these beliefs have been eliminated and replaced...

I (obviously) believe differently on this subject than do you, and much like speaking with another (which I often do), about the Salvation of ALL and find after a few posts, that it is "going nowhere", (1) does not call to me to abandon what I now believe, because the other does not see Salvation as do I... and (2) the other endeavors to preach to me, that which I have left behind... (been there, done that)...

Causes me to move on... I said what I needed to say... and leave it as information which can be accepted or rejected, and depart the discussion...

I guess there comes a time in discussion when we must agree to disagree, and leave what we have said for the considerations of others who are delving into the same areas of GOD's WORD...

IMO -- DELIVERANCE is not just from SIN... it is from FALSE TEACHINGS which live in the Natural mind, and can only be changed from FALLACY to TRUTH, by GOD, ...at HIS decision...

ALL have been CONCLUDED in UNBELIEF -- Rom 11:32 -- which does not "just entail" Salvation... but the detailed TRUTHS as well...

GOD lives in our hearts bro, and it is in the SEARCH of our HEARTS that GOD avails the Scriptures to us, ...

Those that continue to fervently and faithfully SEARCH shall FIND -- Jer 29:13 -- but it is in DESIRE to SEARCH WITH the WHOLE HEART, that within a process, that WHOLE HEART which GOD LIVES IN, is REVEALED to us... For HIS WORD IS in our hearts, being REVEALED...

No worries bro... You are a great friend, and I am so glad you are once again here... Even though there will be positions of disagreement between us from time to time, ...it is only because we are both learning, and pursuing that our understandings might differ "in the moment", and it is up to God, when each "moment" of DELIVERANCE in any area (for either of us) takes place...

We have posted enough back & forth to see it is obvious, both of us shall not convince the other at this time...

One thing I do know, is that both our lives and hearts are BEING MOLDED in HIS HAND...

No amount of further discussion shall find a change in either of us bro... You are welcome to believe as you do, and it is so ORDAINED that you do... just as my belief so ORDAINED to be as it presently, IS.

The biggest difference between us concerning this discussion, is that I once believed as DO you... that has changed...

I also once believed for a time, in (the false doctrines of) HELL, Annhilation, Separation from God, "accepting CHRIST", the "millennium, Easter, Sinner's prayers, "going to Heaven", fallen angels (to mention just a few)... Via prayer, study and time, ...these beliefs have been eliminated and replaced...

I (obviously) believe differently on this subject than do you, and much like speaking with another (which I often do), about the Salvation of ALL and find after a few posts, that it is "going nowhere", (1) does not call to me to abandon what I now believe, because the other does not see Salvation as do I... and (2) the other endeavors to preach to me, that which I have left behind... (been there, done that)...

Causes me to move on... I said what I needed to say... and leave it as information which can be accepted or rejected, and depart the discussion...

I guess there comes a time in discussion when we must agree to disagree, and leave what we have said for the considerations of others who are delving into the same areas of GOD's WORD...

IMO -- DELIVERANCE is not just from SIN... it is from FALSE TEACHINGS which live in the Natural mind, and can only be changed from FALLACY to TRUTH, by GOD, ...at HIS decision...

ALL have been CONCLUDED in UNBELIEF -- Rom 11:32 -- which does not "just entail" Salvation... but the detailed TRUTHS as well...

GOD lives in our hearts bro, and it is in the SEARCH of our HEARTS that GOD avails the Scriptures to us, ...

Those that continue to fervently and faithfully SEARCH shall FIND -- Jer 29:13 -- but it is in DESIRE to SEARCH WITH the WHOLE HEART, that within a process, that WHOLE HEART which GOD LIVES IN, is REVEALED to us... For HIS WORD IS in our hearts, being REVEALED...

No worries bro... You are a great friend, and I am so glad you are once again here... Even though there will be positions of disagreement between us from time to time, ...it is only because we are both learning, and pursuing that our understandings might differ "in the moment", and it is up to God, when each "moment" of DELIVERANCE in any area (for either of us) takes place...

We have posted enough back & forth to see it is obvious, both of us shall not convince the other at this time...

One thing I do know, is that both our lives and hearts are BEING MOLDED in HIS HAND...

I must say that this was the most civil discussion on satan I have read. You all were very kind and undemeaning in your responses. You all have provoked some thought within myself regarding sin.

Are evil thoughts sin? If I get Seth, he seems to think so. You make a good argument, but it doesn't feel right in my spirit that evil thoughts are sin. I am reminded of the old adage: Birds may fly overhead, but don't let them make a nest.

I am wondering if the birds flying overhead are just thoughts of good and evil. We are human, we have an intellectual brain and these thoughts they come and go. When I go to the store with my child I am careful to watch my child as I know all manner of evil that a pedafile could do. Is it a sin that I can think of the evil that can be done to my child? If Jesus' body was hungry was it evil that his mind knew he could turn the rocks into bread? Was it evil that he knew he could rule the world? Was it evil that he knew angles would bear him up if he ended his misery? Having knowledge isn't evil, it is the foothold it grabs onto in the flesh. Fortunately this knowledge didn't have a foothold because Jesus' mind was in the spirit. Jesus knew these things would end the suffering in his flesh, but didn't entertain them his mind was in the spirit.

If we have evil thoughts, are they lustful automatically because we thought them or can they just be knowledge that presents itself?

Are evil thoughts sin? If I get Seth, he seems to think so. You make a good argument, but it doesn't feel right in my spirit that evil thoughts are sin. I am reminded of the old adage: Birds may fly overhead, but don't let them make a nest.

Hi Sarah,Here are my thoughts on that. The Law says "Do not lust." Whoever commits sin commits unlawfulness for sin is unlawfulness (1 John 3:4). Therefore, the Bible shows us that we are unlawful creatures in our borne carnal nature. The fact that sin within us creates lust, and that lust is unlawful, and that lust is sin, is not something that "I think so" but what the scripture actually says. The LAW of Moses thus makes it unlawful to be naturally carnally ourselves.

The reason this is so, is unto the conversion. That the Law does this thing, to reveal us to be BOUND, against our will (read Romans 8) to vanity (hopelessness), is to also BIND us to hope. We did not ask to be "carnal, sold into sin." Did you? Did I? Of course not. When you read Romans 7 do you see where it says that under the law, we seek to do good, but CANNOT, because the sin in us causes us to do what we don't want to do, and therefore, it is not us who do it, but the sin in us? Do you see how it says that sin takes advantage of the law to work forth in us all forms of unlawful lust? What's the point of all that? That we crave deliverance. If one does not think to lust is wrong, or that as you put it, evil thoughts are sin, why should that person need deliverance? Christ told the Pharisees that He came not to heal the healthy, but the ones who need healing, or at least the ones who admit they need it. That end is the EXACT PURPOSE of the Law.

But here is the rub. It is by the virtue of our natural lusts being unlawful that God sees fit TO DELIVER US from them. That is how the Law led to the Gospel.

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If we have evil thoughts, are they lustful automatically because we thought them or can they just be knowledge that presents itself?

If we have evil thoughts, they are simply the result of the sin within us. Sarah, in your opinion which of these is better: to be delivered from only the acts that result from the evil thoughts, or being delivered from the sin in the flesh that causes the thoughts themselves?

which of these is better: to be delivered from only the acts that result from the evil thoughts, or being delivered from the sin in the flesh that causes the thoughts themselves?

I expect to be delivered from the desire to sin, where 'not-sinning' isn't a fight, but a way of being. Even in this state I don't see myself never hearing inwardly an evil thought, but that those thoughts are just passing and stir no desire. It would just be a recognition within myself that the enemy is still trying but he has no place in me.

I see that lusting is sinful, hands down, but just a passing thought? This is where I'm hung up.

Some see it as an invisible 'being' wandering the earth whispering temptation in your ear, I see it as (for lack of a better way of explaining) a computer chip installed in every person that tests. The computer chip isn't the person anymore than your arm is you, but it is within you.

I expect to be delivered from the desire to sin, where 'not-sinning' isn't a fight, but a way of being. Even in this state I don't see myself never hearing inwardly an evil thought, but that those thoughts are just passing and stir no desire. It would just be a recognition within myself that the enemy is still trying but he has no place in me.

Well, by definition the lust in question that the law forbids is a desire. The question in this thread has been, in what ways has Christ been tested/tempted. If he was tempted in all ways like us, then the desire/lust would be there as it is with us, not just passing thoughts that stir no desire. That is the crux of the whole conversation. However, if Christ is in all points tested with the exception being without sin, then no lust is generated in him, that he would be unlawful in his mind to have those desires. The question is, are the lustful desires sin? Clearly they are. But Christ was without sin. Passing thoughts? I still believe that ANY thought generated in our minds which are contrary to God are from a carnal mind at emnity with God. This is good so we can be delivered from all.

Some topics, like this one, I seem to be able to understand the truth in Spirit but it gets somewhat convoluted to me when I see it in words.So, here is where I get confused:You need a desire for something to be tempted of it, right?An example for me would be caviar, some love it so much they pay a high price for a small amount.I find it repulsive, I simply can not be tempted by it.So, when Jesus was tempted He must have also had the desire for what was brought before Him?

Only if he was tempted while not being without sin. The exception to Christ feeling our infirmities and being tempted in all ways like us, is in him being without sin, and us NOT. Romans 7 shows that sin produces lust in us, and even that lust is unlawful. Being without sin = no sin to produce lust in Christ and no lust in him for him to be drawn away and enticed.

In the flesh, Jesus Christ was a visible image of our final deliverance.

I don't believe that is so, and here is the reason. Notice in Ephesians 2:1 how it draws a distinction between "trespass" and "sin." And, notice how Hebrews does not say that Christ was tempted in all ways like us, yet "without trespass." No, it says, "without sin." Being apart from sin means that Christ was apart from the very operator that produces lust in the first place. The Law reveals to man that he is lawless within himself even before he realizes it. Being without sin, however, Jesus Christ is able to say "If you have seen me, you have seen the father." That is because in the Father is no sin. The Bible is clear on all the ways Christ was made like us, and in all the ways he was like his father. You cannot take the former and exclude the latter.

Remember Jesus' words: "You have not because you ask not." If we don't have expectation of being rid of even the most fleeting evil thoughts, even if they produced no lust/desire, then why would you ask? And asking not, why would you recieve?

I have every expectation of being delivered of EVERYTHING that is contrary to God when we receive the "weight of Glory" in the age to come. That we do not have it now, does not mean we should accept our carnal infirmity as a lasting condition. If passing evil thoughts are something you want to be without, whether or not they produce lust/desire (where I think that the passing thought is a revelation of desire) then ask. If you don't think having those thoughts is a problem, then don't ask, and don't receive.

I see it as (for lack of a better way of explaining) a computer chip installed in every person that tests. The computer chip isn't the person anymore than your arm is you, but it is within you.

NICE! I think this comment also fits very well in the 'being delivered from the law' (and the original topic from which that one was started) as well. I.e., it addresses my original question of Paul struggling to do what he wanted (and doing what he didn't want), then stating "it is no longer I that do it, but the sin that dwells in me". Very good explanation that just is really clear and resonated with me. Good find, Sarah!

Hi Seth. I think that part's just a given. It will happen, it's built into God's plan. In the meantime, we will struggle. Not that we shouldn't ask for help, ability to overcome...hmmmm...that's an interesting concept you bring up, have to think about that one. But I think now we struggle, God brings us along into maturity as part of the outcome of those struggles, then total deliverance in the "end".

It's the outcome, the end result of God's salvation. The resurrected, glorified, immortal body will be a much different deal than what we are currently dealing with. IMO, in God's eyes it's (the same as) already done..."who WILL deliver me...I thank God, Jesus Christ"...guaranteed result of the "down payment". IMO, it's part of our hope of glory, part of the outcome/reward for our suffering for Christ.

Reading just today. When Paul was converted in Acts, Ananias was afraid of "Saul"...God told him he had been specially chosen. Part of his being chosen was "I will show him how many things it behoves him for My name to suffer." !! Then, later in Romans, we get the statement from Paul, "who will deliver me...Jesus Christ". As I understand, a picture of the process, the plan. It will happen. But ultimately, in a resurrected body. My . (Another post for the "being delivered from the law" thread) .

Hi Seth. I think that part's just a given. It will happen, it's built into God's plan. In the meantime, we will struggle. Not that we shouldn't ask for help, ability to overcome...hmmmm...that's an interesting concept you bring up, have to think about that one. But I think now we struggle, God brings us along into maturity as part of the outcome of those struggles, then total deliverance in the "end".

It's the outcome, the end result of God's salvation. The resurrected, glorified, immortal body will be a much different deal than what we are currently dealing with. IMO, in God's eyes it's (the same as) already done..."who WILL deliver me...I thank God, Jesus Christ"...guaranteed result of the "down payment". IMO, it's part of our hope of glory, part of the outcome/reward for our suffering for Christ.

Reading just today. When Paul was converted in Acts, Ananias was afraid of "Saul"...God told him he had been specially chosen. Part of his being chosen was "I will show him how many things it behoves him for My name to suffer." !! Then, later in Romans, we get the statement from Paul, "who will deliver me...Jesus Christ". As I understand, a picture of the process, the plan. It will happen. But ultimately, in a resurrected body. My . (Another post for the "being delivered from the law" thread) .

God's blessing, James.

Right, but here is what I am responding to, when Sarah said: I expect to be delivered from the desire to sin, where 'not-sinning' isn't a fight, but a way of being. Even in this state I don't see myself never hearing inwardly an evil thought, but that those thoughts are just passing and stir no desire.

My question is: Why not? Do you, Sarah, want to hear evil thoughts inwardly? If not, then ask to be delivered from all! Jesus said: if a man asks for an egg, will God give him a scorpion? If you ask for something good, why would God not give it to you? That was my point about asking not and recieving not.

The Bride says to those on the outside of the bride: All those who thirst, come drink. But in order to drink, one must accept that they are thirsty. If even the most fleeting thoughts do not make someone thirsty to be rid of them, then why drink from the water that does wash away those thoughts? You see what I mean?

You've got me thinking though. Thinking about that whole topic of the struggle's built in...we will do it. It's part of the process. Failing, falling, asking for forgiveness, learning to make the better choice next time..."the things he will suffer for my name's sake"...all built in. Yet also, praying to escape from temptation, praying for strength to overcome, which, YES, I do believe in. However, again, got me to thinking about how all this fits together. His will, our prayers, our struggles...how it all works.

I guess we struggle/trust/pray/look to Him our Author and Finisher...and the bottom line is, He's working all according to His will and provides the strength for the journey. Then He ultimately delivers us in immortality.

I wasn't sure if I should answer the law part here or in the "delivered from the law" thread so I posted separately, just in case you wanted to move it to keep everything in one thread.

The fact that Paul suffered is clear, but the question is, did he suffer under grace, or did he place himself back under the law to suffer under sin. Again, that we struggle with sin, is one thing, that we struggle with sin under the law, is another. And, did Paul really not know who would deliver us from the body of sin? Of course he did. Then why ask? Because he is describing his experience when he was not delivered from the law and not under grace, when he did not know who Jesus was at all. That is why Romans 8 describes NOW, as opposed to Romans 7's THEN.

Though people understand that we have a struggle with sin. I think they mistake Romans 7 as a description of that. Romans 7 only describes struggle with sin, when we are under the law, which we are not supposed to place ourselves under for righteousness. Our struggle with sin is under grace, wherein we are delivered from, NOT under the law, wherein we are kept in sin.