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Hello everybody, that thread follows a discussion opened two times under the titles "XVIII La Lune" (opened by Catboxer) and "Looking for a good Tourcaty scan of the Moon" (opened by myself). In the last one I asked Yves le Marsellais (Hi Yves !) to help me to make a litle list of the samples of the arcana XVIII in the many decks we have in hands (Yves haves much more than myself), to make an inventory on how many drops are the ground of the Moon in these historical decks (only Marseilles, and Besançon who follow the Marseilles canon the closest possible).

I already know for the following:

Chosson - 1 drop (on the ground), in the center, betwen the two dogs and under the two grass

Conver - idem

Dodal - 3 drops between the two dogs and again 3 on the left side under the tower

Noblet - one yellow drop on the right side behind the dog

J. and J.P. Payen - 3 + 3 drops in the same style as Dodal, + 2 drops on the right behind the dog like Noblet (it seems Camoin also followed those).

Tourcaty - Yves Le Marseillais told me there is no drops on the ground

Grimaud - one little trace is probably refering to the central drop present in the Conver and the Chosson

Bourlion - cannot say, the arcana XIII is missing from the copy I know

Fautrier - idem

Drago - canno't say

Blanck - cannot say

Madenié - Canno't say exactly but seems to follow Chosson/Conver

Bodet - out of canon

Viéville - out of canon

Krebz - no drops

Camoin/Jodo - seems to follow J. and J.P. Payen (means adding Dodal + Noblet's drops, or maybe the Payen family found an old document showing all these drops)

For some decks which relating to historical canons are not of great reference for me:

Bodet - out of canon

Viéville - out of canon

Krebz - no drops

Blanck - cannot say

Burdel - No drops on the ground

Hadar - no drops on the ground (but it is not a reference for me)

Everybody who feels so can help to complete that list!

Thank you, have a wonderfull day!

__________________
Patience is the scale of the philosopher, Humility the door of his garden

Hello everybody, that thread follows a discussion opened two times under the titles "XVIII La Lune" (opened by Catboxer) and "Looking for a good Tourcaty scan of the Moon" (opened by myself). In the last one I asked Yves le Marsellais (Hi Yves !) to help me to make a litle list of the samples of the arcana XVIII in the many decks we have in hands (Yves haves much more than myself), to make an inventory on how many drops are the ground of the Moon in these historical decks (only Marseilles, and Besançon who follow the Marseilles canon the closest possible).

I already know for the following:

Chosson - 1 drop (on the ground), in the center, betwen the two dogs and under the two grass

Conver - idem

Dodal - 3 drops between the two dogs and again 3 on the left side under the tower

Noblet - one yellow drop on the right side behind the dog

J. and J.P. Payen - 3 + 3 drops in the same style as Dodal, + 2 drops on the right behind the dog like Noblet (it seems Camoin also followed those).

Tourcaty - Yves Le Marseillais told me there is no drops on the ground

Grimaud - one little trace is probably refering to the central drop present in the Conver and the Chosson

Bourlion - cannot say, the arcana XIII is missing from the copy I know

Fautrier - idem

Drago - canno't say

Blanck - cannot say

Madenié - Canno't say exactly but seems to follow Chosson/Conver

Bodet - out of canon

Viéville - out of canon

Krebz - no drops

Camoin/Jodo - seems to follow J. and J.P. Payen (means adding Dodal + Noblet's drops, or maybe the Payen family found an old document showing all these drops)

For some decks which relating to historical canons are not of great reference for me:

Bodet - out of canon

Viéville - out of canon

Krebz - no drops

Blanck - cannot say

Burdel - No drops on the ground

Hadar - no drops on the ground (but it is not a reference for me)

Everybody who feels so can help to complete that list!

Thank you, have a wonderfull day!

Hello again,

Some comments after I looked:

Pierre Madenié: 1 drop as Chosson
Joseph Fautrier: 1 drop horizontaly disposed also between 2 dogs.
Arnoux & Amphoux: 1 drop as Chosson
Antoine Bourlion: No drops.
Tourcaty J F: 1 "drop" as per chosson plus 1 on each bottom of each leg of right dog. But look more traces than drops.

Effectively, comparing as more as possible of Historical Tdm decks is mandatory to understand Truth.... plus some other strong details and a general theory of space and symbols.
No secrets but long researchs and intuition.

If it was so, means if Tourcaty's arcana XVIII was really showing some drops under the right dog's legs, Tourcaty's Moon would be the only one I know to shows such drops; but as you say we cannot affirm those are really drops. The trace between the 2 dogs is probably a drop, like in the Grimaud édition, it shows Tourcaty's reference to the Chosson or/and Conver; he is not the only deck to show that reference, many are showing only one drop between the two dogs, under two grass. But this does not mean there was only one drop on the original documents the Card Makers tried to restore (according to my theory). In fact it seem many of them just copied nearly or completely Conver or Chosson, and some other followed the Payen (Dodal) canon.

For me it is sure at least two Tarot Makers had an original document, maybe three. I think about Dodal and Conver. It's also possible Chosson had one in his possession, but it is difficult to affirm if Chosson's deck is really older than the firts Conver (P. Camoin affirm the BNF Conver isn't from 1760 but from the XVIIII° century and also says that he got one very old Conver from the XVIII° century, see http://www.camoin.com/tarot-forum/qu...que-t2570.html ), and for me Conver restored the ciffer of the Tarot, that is clearly shown on the names of the arcanas, so I am sure he had an original old document to restore. Chosson put diamonds everywhere in the names to make it fancy, but it is not following any ciffer; amyway that's not a proof he didn't have a old document, maybe he he just didn't catch there is a code in the names and wanted to add a personal touch.

Is my list complete? Probably not, let me know ;-). There are probably some other drops on other deck's Moooooon!

See you guys, thank you!

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Patience is the scale of the philosopher, Humility the door of his garden

Philippe Tourrasse aka "Camoin" is right about BnF Conver.... but Mr Thierry Depeaulis is the only correct valid source for demonstrating that this Conver edition is not 18th century date but very early 19th century.

About his truth 1760 édition Philippe T. mentionned, I am very cautious about this "personnal" affirmation.

Chosson deck predate Conver from about 30 years (rafely) and other TdM decks predate Chosson on their turn.
But still shows 1 drop between the 2 dogs.

In my own opinion (and for sure many experts could confirms this) Conver deck is definitly NOT the best deck to:

Mr Thierry Depeaulis is the only correct valid source for demonstrating that this Conver edition is not 18th century date but very early 19th century.

Hello Yves, do you have some links where I can read more on T. Depeaulis's demonstration? Or can you explain more about that demonstration? There is a clear datation on the Conver (not on the Chosson), so why would Conver put a false datation on his deck?

I know this is a well known subject, that controvers of datation of the Conver TdM, but I don't know exactly on what basis mister Depeaulis build his demonstration that it is not from 18° century but 19°.

I looked better on Tourcaty's Moon, and I found P. Camoin probably took his drops under the dogs from that deck (he took the other's from Dodal/Payen); I am not sure but it seems there are at least two of these drops flowded but still visible. And there are also the grass that are also found on Suzanne Bernardin's deck, where one drop (a big one though) seems to be drawn under the left dog, on the left side of the pool.

About that it's raining a lot here... no need to look after to find some drops around!

Bonne journée à tous !

__________________
Patience is the scale of the philosopher, Humility the door of his garden

There is a clear datation on the Conver (not on the Chosson), so why would Conver put a false datation on his deck?

re-read Yves sentence : "this Conver edition is not 18th century" so he's speaking about a specific edition (and obviously so is T.Depaulis), not the Tarot in itself : nobody doubts that Conver was active in the XVIIIth century.

Hello Bertrand, nice to hear from you. Yes you are right, I didn't read properly. Still, I wonder what are the arguments of M. Depeaulis on that subject, I haven't read his books.

So not speaking of P. Camoin who declares that he got a Conver deck from the 18° (so first edition, if I don't mistake), as he doesn't display it (???!!!), where can we see such an old Conver deck ? I wonder if the first Conver edition had the same colours as the well known BnF/Heron. Can someone give me some light on that subject?

Thanks!

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Patience is the scale of the philosopher, Humility the door of his garden

Hello Bertrand, nice to hear from you. Yes you are right, I didn't read properly. Still, I wonder what are the arguments of M. Depeaulis on that subject, I haven't read his books.

So not speaking of P. Camoin who declares that he got a Conver deck from the 18° (so first edition, if I don't mistake), as he doesn't display it (???!!!), where can we see such an old Conver deck ? I wonder if the first Conver edition had the same colours as the well known BnF/Heron. Can someone give me some light on that subject?

Thanks!

About Mr Depaulis, best way is to ask him directly: You could find his mail after some Google actions.

Bear in mind anyway that about Conver from BnF Thierry Depaulis used Taxes laws and rules applicated to cardmakers by France Legislation to demonstrate that cardmaker name was mandatory printed on Valet after a certain date: 1805 or 1803 I don't remenber exactly and my documentation is far from me for the moment.

About real dated 1760 Conver deck and colors, up to now I still think that they are similar to BnF exemplary.
But of course I repeat that you should get a High Definition scan of BnF Conver coz Héron fac similé is far from Truth either on colors, dimensions and quality of details.

Mr Depaulis books are very interesting and also his articles in L'As de trèfle.

Historians and experts are very useful for understanding Tarot... History.
But to understand Tarot.... esoterism it's another story for them and most of amatores; and we need more knowledge at this stage.

Thank you very much Yves. I completely agree with your opinion about historians.

So it appears that Nas Conver - France is effectively written on the VALET DE BATON (of knight). That would made the BnF edition a post 1805, so beginning of the 19th century. The original datation on the 2 of Coins remained untouched (1760), so it means the original Conver is possibly two years older than the Chosson, which datation is controversed [1762? - 1672?]. But I find hard to believe that such a mistake (of inversion of the 7 and the 6 in the datation of the Chosson) could take place; it's enough hard to engrave wood to realize afterwhile you mistaked.

you should get a High Definition scan of BnF Conver coz Héron fac similé is far from Truth either on colors, dimensions and quality of details.

Yves, you say the Heron is a "fac-simile", but not speaking of the dimension change, it seems to be a simple and flat reproduction, isn't it? There is still the red stamp of the BnF visible on the cards. So in that case, even if there is some deperdition of colours and contrast, it cannot be that much far from the original? I mean, are there really some details missing in the Heron, compared to the BnF deck?

Best regards, have a goog day ;-)

__________________
Patience is the scale of the philosopher, Humility the door of his garden

Thank you very much Yves. I completely agree with your opinion about historians.

So it appears that Nas Conver - France is effectively written on the VALET DE BATON (of knight). That would made the BnF edition a post 1805, so beginning of the 19th century. The original datation on the 2 of Coins remained untouched (1760), so it means the original Conver is possibly two years older than the Chosson, which datation is controversed [1762? - 1672?]. But I find hard to believe that such a mistake (of inversion of the 7 and the 6 in the datation of the Chosson) could take place; it's enough hard to engrave wood to realize afterwhile you mistaked.

Yves, you say the Heron is a "fac-simile", but not speaking of the dimension change, it seems to be a simple and flat reproduction, isn't it? There is still the red stamp of the BnF visible on the cards. So in that case, even if there is some deperdition of colours and contrast, it cannot be that much far from the original? I mean, are there really some details missing in the Heron, compared to the BnF deck?

Best regards, have a goog day ;-)

Hello Premdas and all,

Chosson is not 1762 and very probably not 1672 too.
I think that this woodblocks were made (around 1730) by somebody else and later some "arrangement" was made with reality such as partly changing name of cardmaker on 2 of Deniers.
This theory is not my creation but result of work of Ross caldwell and another contributor who made a very persuasing visual demonstration on Tarot History Forum: Search with Chosson as source on this other very good Forum.

Concerning Héron "Fac similé" of Conver, colors are really different: Brown to green for exemple but not only helas.
About details, by experience I can say that if you don't do a high quality work, you erase small details.
I don't say that details are not here, I say that when I see high definition reproduction of BnF Conver (in fact I ordered the highest quality from BnF image Bank); I see much more details and discover and understand better this deck.
Only a full involvement in Tarot can give us a chance to find some light at the end of the Tunnel...