Thursday, March 24, 2011

I just got off the phone with Ray and he'll be on the show this Sunday for an interview/discussion. He'd like those of you with questions to e-mail them to me and I'll pick some of them to use on the air. I'll have plenty of my own questions...and I think this may be the fastest hour we've ever done.

(NOTE: As I've said before, Ray and I might even be friends...despite the disagreement, so while I won't be taking it easy on him, I'm hoping for a civil, reasonable discussion - including finding areas where we might agree.)

I am glad he will (theoretically) be on, but I can't say I am optimistic that I will enjoy it. Everything I have seen from him debating was just painful because he didn't address reasoned arguments because he begins with the assumption that the bible is right and things that appear to contradict it are incorrect. basically Q: "how do you dispute X, evidence that is widely accepted through extensive study and tests via peer review?" A: "but the bible says Y. what's the next question?"

The great thing that I love about this show that I think many others love about it is that they generally don't let people do that. I want to see Matt force Ray to stay on one subject and address points made. If that happens, I have a feeling that Ray will be a stuttering mess and will have to admit that he has no argument.

I hope he will adress things that will be put forward. The debate with the Rational Response Squad was very disappointing in that aspect.And let's hope he won't argue that a god exists because there are such things as soda cans or paintings or cars or hands or eyes. Or better yet, god exists because our minds are different from animals'.

Matt, please ask him to explain why the disbelief in the claim that there is a Hell is like denying that I see the truck that's going to run me over.Oh and nail him on this quote:

"There's something in you that says 'Oh, I don't wanna die'. That's your god-given will to live. Listen to it. Because god, the judge of the universe, has proclaimed the death sentence upon the entire human race. [..] But the same god is rich and mercy."

And with the debate with Father Jacobse in mind, Matt, you're allowed to take a firmer line on your turf :)

My real hope is that fans of Ray watch the program. People who are Xtians, who think Ray speaks the truth, need to watch what happens on Sunday. They need to pay attention to what Ray does when he's asked a straightforward, common-sense question. (If Matt wanted to steal Glenn Beck's act, he'd write "obfuscation" on the blackboard while Ray gives his answer.) I hope lots and lots of devout Xtians tune in.

I have a feeling this is how this will go. Theists always say, "Why not debate actual preachers and theologians on the air? Such as William Craig, Matt Slick (which did happen), etc." So, now AETV gets Ray Comfort (one of the most popular Christians in the USA) to come on the show. Ray and the guys will have a civil and reasonable (not so reasonable in Ray's case) discussion about the bible and other religious stuff. Then a bunch of Christians will come out and say, "You didn't debate a real believing theologian(whatever the hell that is)! See, the Atheist Experience is a bunch of wussies! Told ya!", after Ray gets his comeuppance.

Ray Comfort is like the only celebrity that would be caught at a LA Clippers game. You know they are there and are more popular than the players and the camera will pan to them every quarter to see their reactions, but without any reasonable skills whatsoever he only makes the team look even worse when they repeatedly lose.

I think Jeff has said he can't make it this Sunday. Now I wonder if he's changing whatever plans he may have had. Even so, with Ray on, Matt could go it alone, but if would be fun to have one more of us with him.

I think asking Ray about his salary has nothing to do with the atheism vs Ray believes controversy (even if he lies about it). Actually, that could be an ad hominem argument...

@TAE Crew: I think the classic question: "What kind of evidence would convince you that the earth is old/evolution is true?" would be wonderful... and when he starts with cocroduck and alike stuffs, please shoot him down, twice :)

@Daniel, that could be true. It's just a question he loathes because he likes to use the 'average wage' line. And of course he then deletes anyone who points out he makes like 5 times the average wage (plus hires all his family at Living Waters).

Awww, that sucks that it won't be an in-studio appearance. Talking with Ray over the phone makes it too easy for him to declare a ridiculous "victory statement" and then hang up on you guys. He'd be a lot easier to pin down if he would physically appear on the show. Oh well, we'll take what we can get. It should still be very interesting. I don't usually watch the show live, but I'll definitely make it a point to this time.

I do agree that if anyone can hold Ray's feet to the fire, it would be the AETV crew, but my expectation is that Ray will just site faith and the Bible, so Matt's use of logic and reason will basically just be brushed off. Hopefully I am wrong and he will try to counter some of their arguments.

Frankly I think Ray's only strategy is to be amiable and stick to his faith and "good book" arguments and hope that the atheists come off as angry and unfulfilled.

Why does Ray get to be the Lions? I'm a Lions fan, they've actually have won 4 in a row for the first time since the Barry Sanders days...

Wait, what were we talking about? Oh yeah. I'm really looking forward to Sunday. The thing that should be obvious is the way Ray and his ilk process information versus the way most rational skeptics/ atheists do. There is no group I'd trust more to make this apparent than Matt and Jeff. After all, we already know what he thinks. He's told us that ad nauseum, and often it's not even consistent. I just want to know how he comes to those conclusions. It often still baffles me.

I'd like you to ask whether or not he believes a Kermit doll was possessed. Ref: "Killer on the Loose" which he wrote circa 1980.

As if he thinks its "Christian" to employ himself and his immediate family at salaries in the $100,000 range totalling just under half a million dollars from peoples donations, when so many are in economic hardship. Ref: Living Waters 990 form.

Ask him what he thinks the age of the earth is.

Those are questions he avoids answering like the plague and should give you more than enough blustering from him for an hour.

In fact you can really drill him on the exorcism thing. Ask him if he really believe's a girl was possessed by Joseph and Marinda Smith (of Mormon fame). If he says he doesn't ask him why people should believe him now knowing that he was wrong before and essentially had the foundations of his faith firmly rooted in exorcism and such banality as rock music being the work of the devil.

I might ask him what he would do if scientific or historical research proved part of the Bible incorrect. Would he reject the Bible, part of the Bible, or science/history? If he would reject part of the Bible, how could he know parts of the Bible he does believe in won't be disproven in future the same way?

Also, is he aware that it seems certain that the whole Moses thing leading the slaves out of Egypt never happened, and hence the Ten Commandments aren't given by Yahweh...?

You should have no problem having a civil discussion with Ray. I've seen him talk to intelligent non-believers before though, and I know he flip-flops a lot. He doesn't say all the stuff that he says when people can't respond. A suggestion, if I may; get one of his books and ask him questions about things he has said in print, otherwise he simply won't admit to having said those things.

Matt and Jeff Dee, be sure to read about Ray Comfort on IronChariots.org. There are excellent articles of rebuttals against his common tactics, like his all-time favorite "are you a good person?"

RationalWiki also as several reviews of his best selling books such as "How to Know God Exists", "God Doesn't Believe in Atheists: Proof That the Atheist Doesn't Exist" and "Nothing Created Everything: The Scientific Impossibility of Atheistic Evolution." What is also very awesome is that the site has entire reviews of his episodes of Way of the Master.

On RationalWiki, look up "Rational Response Squad debate with the way of the Master."

This will likely come in handy because Ray has a bad habit of constantly repeating the same old crap over and over. A civil discussion will be difficult, but whenever says "I know" be sure to drill in and see HOW he knows.

This is amazing news. What needs to be adressed is his presupposition that scripture is true... all his arguments go back to that, and if they spend most of the time destroying that idea, it'll deflate all of his later rhetoric.

"The lost, even the religious, hated Him because He exposed them for what they really were--sinners. The atheist is no different; he denies God because he loves his sin, and doesn't want God to take that away."[...]"So when Jesus says, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me (Luke 9:23)," the atheist refuses. But Ray Comfort couldn't have explained the atheists refusal any better when he said, "When you reject God’s mercy in Jesus Christ, you aren’t rejecting a religion. You are rejecting the most precious thing in the universe--life itself."What the Atheist Really Means When He Says, "There is No God"

This kind of believer would be looking at TAE tomorrow. Please try your best to hit the truth tomorrow, as it could be the SINGLE opportunity for this kind of believers to see real atheism in action, and to show them what is really behind what they believe as truth.

I don't think Ray is as dumb as he puts himself forth as. He's selling a product, and part of that sales effort is to sell the taste of the product while ignoring the substance.

The substance is not as interesting as it doesn't cause an emotional reaction necessary to pull in potential customers. Potential customers include the people here, as well as other people who see him entering the lion's den and dealing with the atheist menace.

So, don't dismiss his skills. Don't dismiss his preconceived calculation of how he will address this audience to sell his wares.

That he's wrong on the facts is largely unimportant to how he will react. Yes, by all means, keep focused on individual facts and show that he either has no good answer or is intentionally being deceptive. Don't let him move on to some other issue till he addresses this. (Oh, to have Jeff Dee on this call. Maybe Matt and Russell can 'channel their inner bulldog Jeff Dee or relentlessly rational Tracie Harris' at appropriate times? :-P )

In either case, Ray isn't a dummy even if he is simply wrong n the facts; he doesn't care about the facts because he wants a sale. If he can get some souls or funding in the process, he can justify his time. That he's dishonest is well documented; don't mistake him for being a fool on all levels even if he acts like a fool as a part of his public persona.

This debate like all debates with superstitious religions will go as all debates go, with the Christian declaring victory to fellow Christians and fellow Christians spinning it into victory. It's like going on any FOXNEWS program and think you can reason with insanity.

My wife is a nurse in one of our state hospitals for the mentally ill.

You can't debate the mentally ill into a cure.

The mentality ill that are hospitalized are the ones who can't function in society. There are millions of mentally ill who do manage to function in society. Christians are of this type. Hearing voices that aren't there, seeing things that aren't there yet able to hold down jobs, even get degrees in education.

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PLEASE NOTE: The Atheist Experience has moved to a new location, and this blog is now closed to comments. To participate in future discussions, please visit http://www.freethoughtblogs.com/axp.The Atheist Experience is a weekly live call-in television show sponsored by the Atheist Community of Austin. This independently-run blog (not sponsored by the ACA) features contributions from current and former hosts and co-hosts of the show.