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Well, Mari's gone.. and all she's got is Satoru... who is like her... want to save the village .... if there is still a village to save...

Spoiler for For the Child's Behavior:

Come to think of it.... what the hell did Yakomaru feed the child.. a lot of hate? Like, you're Dad's a loser, your Mom's a lesbian and has a lover, and your birth is a mistake of not using contraceptives.... and they left you to die... and I, the good hearted Yakomaru is the only person that loves you with all his heart... puke* LOls

Come to think of it.... what the hell did Yakomaru feed the child.. a lot of hate? Like, you're Dad's a loser, your Mom's a lesbian and has a lover, and your birth is a mistake of not using contraceptives.... LOls

A lot of hate is what it is. Treat the kid badly and tell them that the situation is like this because of what their people did. That they left and abandoned him/her and that ones that they are with now the only ones that can help.

So you have a kid that might not just want to kill because they can, but they also have feelings of anger and revenge.

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Whoa, that's quite the memo I missed. I wasn't aware that most modern human societies make a habit out of culling their own young.

I don't fully agree with Kazu-kun myself, but let's not go overboard here.

I actually expect Kuromitsu wasn't talking about the child aspect of Kazu's argument but the way humans treat queer rats and their arrogance.

Don't we as humans think of ourselves as better than other species? Isn't there a bit of arrogance in the way we look at animals for instance?

Now I am not saying the queer rats are animals. I think they are much closer to humans than Saki's society sees them but its not so surprising that humans see themselves as better.

As for killing children, its a sick society no doubt. And maybe it should naturally be wiped out but isn't it easy to judge when it's not your survival. I mean really what is a better solution that people propose instead of letting human society die?

I personally thought Shin Sekai Yori created a world with no easy answers. I am not usually a cultural relativist and yet for their society I can't think of anyway else to be.

Still the theme of Kino no Tabi about finding beauty even in an ugly world rings true to me too. These are still people who love, have hopes & dreams, can feel compassion. I honestly find it hard to wish for their destruction, despite the sickness that lies behind the society.

If anything, if they had kept with the old method then this wouldn't have happened.

It's only because they tried the experiment with Group 1 to figure out a new way that this is even happening.

Still, there's no point in explaining things in detail to those unable to empathize to the situation and are only able to apply their own ethics even to a what-if type story.

No. It was inevitable.

Even before, when Saki en company had never even seen a queerat the adults were worried about the possibility of them snatching a child whose powers hadn't developed yet. Heck, they were even worried that the queerats would find out that young children don't have or can't use cantus.

It's cliche to call a revolution inevitable after it has passed. But the possibility of something like this happening was alluded to from the very beginning.

It's true that the kids' intervention in the first queerat war arc probably saved Squealer's life and the slaves he got from Kiroumaru hastened the Robber Fly Colony's rise in power.

But to blame all of this on Tomiko exercising only slightly less control over group one is really too easy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

I find Saki pitiable, but that's all.

I want them all dead for various reasons, but what really makes me cringe is their arrogance. You can see a bit of it in this episode, and in the previous episode one of the characters (the powerful guy that kicked the bucket) even called themselves the children of god or some shit like that. I mean, I think there's nothing wrong with struggling as much as you can for survival, but to think that you're entitled to it, that you somehow deserve to survive more than others because you're better or more worthy, that's bullshit. And that's the main problem with this people. Everyone of them, maybe with the exception of Saki and Sataru, believes themselves a wonder of the universe.... but these are people who kill their children because they're dead afraid of fiends and karma demons. They're not a wonder of the universe, they're not gods, they're shit. And since they're shit, they should be more humble.

All in all, I think this is a good opportunity for Saki. If she survives, maybe she will find the strength in herself to NOT become another Tomiko. Tomiko was controlled by fear just like everyone else. If the humans are to survive, they need a leader who isn't a paranoid faggot that would sacrifice their children out of fear. Because, the moment you sacrifice your humanity for survival, you can be damn sure karma will come to bite you in the ass, which is exactly what's happening right now. Karma has come in the form of a murderous fiend, and now they have to pay.

They're arrogant therefore they should die. That's the reason? Please don't apply this reasoning to anything other than fictional characters and... eww if you really must --insects and small rodents.

Tomiko doens't seem to be action from anything as irrational as fear. She was there when the Akki, a boy reffered to only as K, nearly destroyed the village. She was there when the kindest girl became an uncontrollable vortex that warped the world around her, a Gouma. There is nothing unreasonable about the villages precautions. They may be inhumane or immoral or even both but until a better check is put in place the fear of the re-emergence of a Fiend or Karma Demon is definitely more rational than the fear of an abstract religious concept like karma.

Even before, when Saki en company had never even seen a queerat the adults were worried about the possibility of them snatching a child whose powers hadn't developed yet. Heck, they were even worried that the queerats would find out that young children don't have or can't use cantus.

Good point, I had forgotten that bit in the early part of the story. Although I wonder if it were irrational fear or if the queerats have tried something like that before. It seems the height of foolishness to leave the queerats alone if they've actually gone and tried to kidnap humans.

I wonder how queerats came about. Were they made intelligent deliberately using cantus or did they appear because of the mutations caused by cantus "leaking"?

Could be a severe case of hoisted by their own petard if someone had created them. Too bad nobody in the current time has anything to do with that.

The way this is going. I think the only way they can survive is for the Akki child of Maria and Mamorou to die some how. Now since none of the humans would kill him/her. My bet is the survived Kiroumaru some how able to kill the Akki.

The other possibility is someone sacrifice him/herself to kill the Akki and die after. Although I wonder why no one was ever brave enough to do that (other then the doctor in Tomiko recollection)? I mean I would think someone would have been able to self sacrifice like that, especially when you know you are going to die anyways.

Whoa, that's quite the memo I missed. I wasn't aware that most modern human societies make a habit out of culling their own young.

Look at various cultures through history. Humans culling their own young for shits and giggles? Nah. Regularly killing children (or adults, not much of a difference in the end...) for a reason they thought was important? Not as unthinkable as you might suspect. And as for modern societies*, no, most modern cultures don't do that. But abusing children in various ways, for whatever reason if any, with little or no reprisal? Look around you.

And that's just the tip of the iceberg of what humanity has been doing ever since we climbed down from the trees, so to speak. (Hell, look at chimpanzees, no wonder they're our closest relatives. Well, them and the sex-maniac bonobos. ) Humans in general are and have always been utter and total bastards, from the way we treat each other to the way we treat our environment.

*Why should we consider only modern societies, anyway? Our past brought us to where we are now.

What with all the talk about pragmatism, it's like some people here deliberately neglect to consider the reasons why this society (or rather, those in the "know") does what it does. Is it a commendable thing what they do? Well shit, of course not, it's sick and horrible. But it's such an old dilemma and it's played so straight here that I admit I find it a bit baffling how people easily miss or ignore the "needs of the many vs needs of the few" question. Sure, it's a dilemma for a reason, but that means there's at least two sides to it, not one objectively right opinion.

And as for arrogance, I really have to lol at that, because we've seen 1) Koufuu and... that's all, really. The rest is not even hubris, it's just basic human nature. Like it or not. If they deserve to die for "being arrogant" then we should really just go and collectively hang ourselves...

And frankly, it doesn't sit well with me to see someone sit on the proverbial high horse wishing violent death on people (fictional, but still), with using only emotional, knee-jerk reactions as arguments to back it up with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

I personally thought Shin Sekai Yori created a world with no easy answers.

Pretty much. There's much we haven't seen yet, and I imagine things will get intense here after the end, but really - everything is so relative it's almost ridiculous. As I said, it's so very easy being judgemental. Considering the circumstances, what led to what and why, past and present and future, and assessing the situation based on that is what requires actual thinking without the promise of easy answers and solutions.

I take it you're also actively rooting for the violent extinction of the human species in the real world, too. (Because otherwise ooh, sweet hypocrisy.)

Seriously, isn't it just so easy to be judgemental and painting everyone with the same brush.

His point of view strikes me as quite hypocritical as well, unless he is actually a misanthropist. Everything he pointed out applies to humanity to some extent (are we arrogant? Definitely. Children of God? Tons of people believe that. Do we prioritize our survival other that of other species and sometimes even our own? Of course. We even prioritize our comfort over the rest of the planet.) We are almost as bad as the humanity depicted in Shin Sekai Yori, and have been even worse in the past.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

I actually expect Kuromitsu wasn't talking about the child aspect of Kazu's argument but the way humans treat queer rats and their arrogance.

Don't we as humans think of ourselves as better than other species? Isn't there a bit of arrogance in the way we look at animals for instance?
As for killing children, its a sick society no doubt. And maybe it should naturally be wiped out but isn't it easy to judge when it's not your survival. I mean really what is a better solution that people propose instead of letting human society die?

I personally thought Shin Sekai Yori created a world with no easy answers. I am not usually a cultural relativist and yet for their society I can't think of anyway else to be.

Still the theme of Kino no Tabi about finding beauty even in an ugly world rings true to me too. These are still people who love, have hopes & dreams, can feel compassion. I honestly find it hard to wish for their destruction, despite the sickness that lies behind the society.

I agree wholeheartedly. I disapprove of their society but I can't condemn them for choosing this path, because as far as I can tell, it was the only one available to them. They did what they had to do to ensure their survival. They would have been wiped out a lot sooner if they had done nothing to prevent the appearance of fiend and karma demons, and it's not in humanity's nature to simply accept its doom.

I also find it hard to wish for these people to meet their death because in spite of all (because of them?) their flaws, they are still very much human and not all that different from us.

Good point, I had forgotten that bit in the early part of the story. Although I wonder if it were irrational fear or if the queerats have tried something like that before. It seems the height of foolishness to leave the queerats alone if they've actually gone and tried to kidnap humans.

Fright abounds in the village and keeping a slave-species down is hard paranoia inducing work. So who knows? One would think that Tokmiko would have mentioned it if the mole rats had been a creditable threat in the past 200 years, and the false minoshiro would have been likely to mention such an event had it occurred any later than that. But neither did so it's fair to assume that there have been no bakenezumi revolutions of even a tenth on this scale. Though there really is no evidence that the humans haven't smote the bakenezumi back into the stone age before for something like that. Do children even go outside of the barrier? Do bakenezumi even go in unless invited by council?

Quote:

I wonder how queerats came about. Were they made intelligent deliberately using cantus or did they appear because of the mutations caused by cantus "leaking"?

Seeing as the lab at the exo-species department had genuine naked mole rats. It safe to assume they evolved in a way similar to the fujouneko. That is to say they were selectively bred, much like today's dogs.

Quote:

Could be a severe case of hoisted by their own petard if someone had created them. Too bad nobody in the current time has anything to do with that.

It might be were humanity's sense of entitlement stems from. Also: Rise of the planet of the Naked Mole Rats anyone?

Why do you think Saki should be held responsible for all of this death?

She perpetuated the lie that Maria was dead.

The fact that, even as a narrator presumably with hindsight, she still doesn't seem able to comprehend the purpose behind the seemingly cruel dictates of the society she used to/currently lives in, is kind of sad.

The fact that, even as a narrator presumably with hindsight, she still doesn't seem able to comprehend the purpose behind the seemingly cruel dictates of the society she used to/currently lives in, is kind of sad.

.....and she kept quiet when Yakumaro was showering the committee with lies.... Whether she has the right to speak or not... her words value more that Yakumaro since she's human and Tomiko isn't dumb......

A man steals money from a bank. His best friend lies about it when questioned by the police.

This somehow leads into a banking crisis and the next Great Depression. Which in turn leads to World War and lots of lives lost.

Who do you think is more at fault here - The person who lied for his friend, or the actual bank thief?

Edit: Oh, and I should add that the guy who lied for his friend encouraged his friend to "turn himself in" and hope for mercy. But instead, the bank thief totally ran away, leaving a farewell letter to his best friend, telling his best friend that they'd never see each other again.

Edit: Oh, and I should add that the guy who lied for his friend encouraged his friend to "turn himself in" and hope for mercy. But instead, the bank thief totally ran away, leaving a farewell letter to his best friend, telling his best friend that they'd never see each other again.

No, the thief told his best friend to lie to cover for him.

(Anyway, I hope no-one believes for a second that Tomiko thought that Maria and Mamoru were really dead just because that's what Saki told her. )

Just to add where I think the queer rats came from. Remember the False Minoshiro told us we have 4 groups

1) First were a group of PK users that used non PK users as slaves (according to the False Minoshiro the PK users in this society were eventually all killed out)

2) Non-PK users who escaped and lived as hunter/gatherers

3) Bandits who used PK to attack other settlements (most likely this society killed each other off as well).

4) A group that managed to retain some technological knowledge.

We know according to the False Minoshiro that the current society was developed from the scientists of group 4. The scientists realized that human society would just die off unless checks and balances were put in place to prevent that: such as the death feedback.

However Shun asks the important question what happened to the non-PK users of groups 1 & 2. This is a mystery in the story and even the false Minoshiro has no answer. I am convinced the queer rats somehow devolved from this group. Whether it happened naturally or by another experiment by the scientists on non-PK users I have no idea.

So to me it is not that the Queer Rats found the False Minoshiro and are just emulating human history they are emulating their own history as well.

And even though the PK users of group 1 died out, the current society has somewhat developed similarly to that society in some ways with the using the queer rats for labour, minus the killing of each other of course.

If the kid is a fiend devoid of sanity, how come he didn't slaughter any queerats? And if he's not turned into a fiend, wouldn't he get death feedback?

Maybe there's something I'm missing, I don't know.

As for rooting for the extinction of this society, I don't see how that is even remotely productive. Ignorance/fear shouldn't be punished by death. It's a tragic situation no matter how you look at it; the PK society was rotten and their own destruction was a matter of time, but I don't see how the death of people can be something desirable or something that brings anyone joy. Just my two cents.

And it's not as if Yakomaru is exactly righteous either (in fact he's arguably the worst of all), so it's not like it'd be rooting for justice...