Paul talks with Richard whom Paul met at the PDC (Permaculture Design Course) in Montana. Richard has listened to all of the podcasts. They discuss a theoretical Permaculture ecoscale, and specifically Pauls definition of the Wheaton ecoscale, and Pauls ad-hoc permaculture ecoscale.

The three sections of ecosections of Pauls environmental laboratory: Permaculture, symbiculture and husp (Horticulture of the United States of Pocahontas) are discussed in detail as well. The question of whether permaculture is possible without the attributed ethics was covered and how some use permaculture practice as a weapon in discussions or what could be described as an attitude of permaculture elitism. Permatism?