Mangalore is fast emerging, if it has already not emerged, as the “Laboratory of Karnataka”. The epicentre of communally mobilised politics for long, the region has seen individual and institutional rights shrink rapidly under the BJP government of B.S. Yediyurappa as goons and goondas on all sides of the triangle run haywire.

As if all that infamy under the cavernous nose of Karnataka’s home minister V.S. Acharya wasn’t enough, hoodlums of the Sri Ram Sena on Saturday barged into a pub at 4 pm claiming that “unethical activities” were taking place inside, and then slapped and kicked girls, and assaulted the men who were with them.

Questions: Who decides what is decent, what is ethical? Is women going to a lounge bar or pub against “traditional Indian norms of decency”? Does the dark presumption of “unethical activities” give vigilante groups the license to raid restaurants, and kick and beat up customers? Does such violence against women (captured by TV cameras) fall within the purview of “traditional Indian norms of decency”? Since when did it become illegal for Hindu girls to go out with Muslim boys, or vice-versa?

161 comments

The problem is that such people are allowed to go scot-free. That is the real question. Should such groups be allowed to exist and continue to torment people in the name of tradition, culture and whatever cause they choose to espouse?

And, above all, is Karnataka slowing becoming the Gujarat of the South?

ohh…does churumuri want it to become another kerala?(where hindus are butchered, and targetted like in marad incident)
dont bring such issue unnecessarily. agree that ramsena is extremist group, also u must understand that hindu girls are main targets of one extemist islamic group in coastal district(last year the group issued hand bills calling for muslim youths to target and malign hindu girls). which is why district is boiling…

Freaking religiously minded debates, what about us unbelievers? You are there but not there eh? Its bloody not about flesh and blood, the ideas that motivate you to kill are right there in your religious books. Don’t look at that girl in the pub for any respite, she is supposed to be there, look rather in your religion. Also going out to my hitherto muslim brothers who saw the irrationality of faith and abdicated it. These hindu dudes also need to follow suit.

Once upon a time, BJP, the then RSS was a highly disciplined and well behaved organisation with utmost love for the country. Over the years, when BJP was formed and started welcoming every rouge in to their party with only one intention to capture the power at the centre, the principles were thrown into air. Organisational norms were diluted and the elder’s advise were ignored. Then what discipline we can expect from such a party ? It has become another political party with only one intension of capturing power and that is what it did in Karnataka. That being the case, we can’t expect decent beheviour from that party and its men. Only goondas and goons are ruling the country and we should be mute spectators for all their doings. But, a piece of advice to our women folk. Let us maintain the dignity of ourselves without giving scope for others to comment.

These Politicians are not just satisfied with their greed for unaccountable money and power, they want more. They want the blood of every Indian citizen, whether its through mumbai terror attacks or attacks on churches or corruption on coffins of Indian soldiers.

This is worse then dictatorship and a joke on democracy and the so called largest democracy joke. Obama the real terrorists are the politicians on both sides of the border, capture them and change the electoral process.

We don’t need to decide if the girls were right or wrong in their actions before condemning the existence of depraved scum like the “sena” (who defile Hinduism by associating themselves with Lord Rama) or the “dal” (Like wise Hanuman).

This is scandulous…! The BJP government is misusing its power! We must not vote for BJP again…..!!!!!
Is this how the readers of Churmuri are expected to react to this article, Mr. Editor??? I am sorry but, the more instances of “Karnataka slowing becoming the Gujarat of the South?” you add into your stories, the more determined will “educated and sensible people” condemn them.

Apart from our political differences, I strongly condemn the violence spread by self-proclaimed religious groups. No religion can force people to behave in a certain way – even if they get drunk, have drugs, run over early morning walkers in their inebriated state, etc…!

However, the fact that such acts are increasing, brings up another question – what is the Mangalore police doing?
Why have police and other investigating agencies not been able to punish such criminals? Of course, you might say that they MUST listen to their boss’s (politicians) orders, which also implies to states like Bihar, Andhra Pradesh, Tamil Nadu, etc….

Folks- wake up. Nobody is supporting taking things in their own hands. Neither its related with Hindu girls rights to drink beer. go and enjoy with your spouse if you want.

Many Hindu girls end up marrying Muslims, converted forcibly and LOOSE THE VERY FREEDOM WHICH ENABLED HER TO MARRY ACROSS RELIGION IN THE FIRST PLACE. We all know many examples from our life, isn’t it? How many of us protest at that time? Do they get justice?

Jehadi romeos luring Hindu/Sikh/Xtian girls have become an issue worldwide. Here is some reports from the London which quotes London Metropolitan chief Sir Ian Blair. Specially girls attending colleges, universities have been targetted.

Its a one way street folks. And society knows it. And resents because of that. This is an issue not only in India, but also in Britain and elsewhere. I doubt inter religion mixing, marriage is a issue between Hindu-Sikh, Hindu-Xtians. We should ponder why its a issue with Muslims alone.

Churumuri’s last question>>Since when did it become illegal for Hindu girls to go out with Muslim boys, or vice-versa?

I will give you name, address of places, persons where Muslim girls were forcibly taken off from colleges by their parents for mixing with ‘Hindu” boys. Families of Hindu boys were threatended for mixing with Muslim girls. And the girl forcibly married off to a muslim person.

Will Churumuri/folks go and protest there? All in #1 “Secular” place in West Bengal.

India does not need these terror groups like ‘Sri Rama Sena’ or Sympathizers of Islam like Vinutha Mallya or
self styled defenders of Hindutva like Palahalli. Ban or at least discourage religion completely in India.
The people of india do not deserve suffering caused by religion or in the name of religion..

I’m all for this. Girls drinking ‘beer’ is not Hindu, infact it is not feminine at all. Already our women are prone to obesity and now this will only make ‘beer bellies’ even more rampant. Let them have gin, vodka etc if they want. Folks before shouting off you must consider the thought process of Sree Rama sene.

And I dunno which woman in her sane mind will want to go along with a muslim? Don’t they know that what they are getting is only half? Again sree rama sene is doing a great service to our society by trying to prevent our women folk from getting ripped off.

Punishing these goons will be easy for the police(if they choose to do anything about this, that is) but even jailing these idiots will not solve the problem; the problem will be solved only if the string pullers(read small time politicians) who orchestrate these antics are jailed and punished severely.

but I do have a question: Will churumuri post a poll or a do a post if some muslim cleric tommorrow bans all muslim women from mixing with hindu men? or (though highly unlikely)muslim men from mixing with hindu women? I think we all know the answer to this question :D

And Karnataka becoming the Gujarat of the south? Smacks of pseudosecularism, that line. Remember Delhi, 1984? Of course, nobody does, pseudosecularists have selective memory loss :) yes, i would hate for Karnataka to become the Delhi of 1984 or the Gujarat of the south. After all, nobody likes a genocide.

It is totally wrong for girls to go to pubs and dance and drink. But since it is their personal problem..nobody can interfere. Hence I appeal to Mr.Yedurappa to pass a legislation in Parliament to ensure a bill is passed to the effect that all sorts of vulgarities are stopped in public places.

Churumuri: There will be mixed reactions to this article because you have emphasized the “Muslim” point in your article. The point is, some thugs barged in and bashed up men and women alike. Such people have done similar things to Hindus too, in the past. Valentine’s day, “Operation Majnu”, etc. were directed with malice towards one and all, irrespective of religion. And the Eunuch government of Karnataka seems to be silent so far.

One can possibly forgive incompetence, but willful suppression of punishment cannot be condoned or forgiven. If even one more such incident of moral policing takes place in Karnataka, the BJP has lost my vote. Unfortunately that’s the only thing a ‘common man’ like me can do in a ‘democracy’.

It is really unfortunte that this thing has happened. But i would definately support this act stopping women from going pubs.Every body know what happen in pubs in the name of danceing etc.These outsiders have ruined our culture

While we all condemn the actions of the goons and say govt should act NOW and they should be punished.

Few Qs for ourselves and holier than thou NCW minister Renuka Choudary who says the terms ‘talibanisation’, ‘failure of state govt’… What are we doing about the attack on Taslima Nasreen? What did the minister do in her own state of AP ruled by her own congi govt? Any takers that these congis’ incapable, inept, pseudo secular?

Now, do you believe that Indians don’t commit atrocities on women “folk”?? Seriously, do you ?

I condemn this violence on women…the worst and coward act that a man can do is to inflict violence on a woman…Shame on Rama Sena… (Oh, why they have to use the Holy Rama’s name for the heinous act ??)

***

“Every body know what happen in pubs in the name of danceing etc”

Who are these “Every body” who know what happens in the name of danceing ? Do you know? Have you been to pubs ?

“hese outsiders have ruined our culture”

Tell me who are those “outsiders”??

Churumuri
This has nothing to do with Hindu and Hinduism…except that the perpetrators of violence invoke Lord Rama’s name… This is a pure law and order issue..those culprits must be punished severely for atrocities against women.

Simple – Such a funny clown :) I have not supported this attack. The issue of womenfolk drinking with men in pubs is too trivial. It is not even an issue.

However, I do recognize the larger issue of Muslim men wedding Hindu women and converting them. In today’s circumstances, any such event will be seen to be a “lure” not “love”.

If there are Liberal Hindus who feel “live and let live” must be the norm, fine. Then it is incumbent upon them to ensure no more Hindus are killed by Jihadis and their fellow travelers and Muslims cease their insidious agenda of conversion through wed”lock”. If they cannot ensure this condition, then they cannot and must not stop Hindus from retaliating in the manner they see fit and appropriate.

Ashoka – Drinking is not the problem. Losing one’s head, is.

Vinay – There is no way “Churumuri” will stay away the “Hindu on Muslim” fetish :) That much is built into the Liberal formulae of Multi-Culturalism. Hindus will forever be the target, victim or “villain”.

The majority community is lazy. That is how India came to be colonised again and again.
The Hindu women of the North East cannot even wear Sarees or Bindis. Nor can any Hindu there celebrate any Hindu festival.
In Kashmir, and in many parts of Kerala, Moslem women are forced to live as if they lived in Saudi Arabia.
This example of stupid fundamentalism is now emulated by the Hindu brigade. The Shiv Sena began it all whenever their blackmailing of business houses and bars failed.
But the Hindu hardliners are acting anti-Hinduist when they demand, as they did in Mumbai recently, that a Shiv Ling painted without an underwear should be removed for being anti-Hindu.
These folks have assimilated the Victorian Missionary morality in their enthusiasm to out-do the non-Hindu idiots.

Let us keep the Muslim-Jehadi stuff aside, shall we? Each issue needs to be looked as an individual issue. We all know that Jehadis and their poisonous Madrassa brainwashing is a danger to Hinduism, actually to mankind, and needs to be culled. Let us keep that issue separate from this one. As R.Sajan says above, we should not try to outdo Jehadis and Islamic fundamentalists in their idiocy.

Ashoka:

I have lived in West Europe for the better part of the last 2 years, and for all your high moral talk of the “corrupt Western culture”, girls are safer than in any place in India. Girls can walk from the railway station to their residence at 2:00 AM in the morning without fear. Try doing that in Bangalore, or Delhi? Last new year’s eve, girls were molested in Mumbai by a giant crowd. Lalu’s children were eve teasing people all over Delhi. Was any action taken against them? Do a google search for the number of incidents of violence against women in India, will you?

Dancing is “vulgar” according to you. Drinking is “vulgar” too. I have a solution for you – convert to Islam and move to Pakistan’s North West province, with your teenaged daughters. You will be safe from the moral corruption of the West.

I strongly condem the attack but i oopose women going to pubs or bars and have drinks because please do not forget what happened to jassica lal ? she was gunned down because she refused to serve drinks many rape incidents have taken place when drunkards are a round anything may happpen,If women tend to go to pubs and bard there are incresed number of risk factors! If you want to drink please do it inside your home and I oppose these type of moral policing. You target girls and women in pubs right what aboout cine stars and heroins who expose and drink and dance in parties vulgarly rules should be the same for everyone.

Vinay, sorry to say the Muslim connexion was brought in by this “im”poster.

Also, how can you ignore it when the Rama Sene says they did it to thwart Muslim goons from forcing themselves on Hindu girls? Whether or not that was so is to be decided and the truth may never be out. Who would report it btw?

A lot of what we see today, I lay at the door of Liberal/Secular fadists.

Let’s also talk with some sense for proportion ok? If you really want to see Talibanization of India, you’ll have to convert the lot to Islam and then watch the fun. Nothing less will do. So, LAY OFF THE HYSTERIA.

Simple, sorry, I have no time to waste with you on this thread. I have devoted time and thread for you elsewhere.

We are also overlooking the seeming Bajrang Dal – Rama Sene competition. Common sense says there is a wide open market out there in pent up Hindu anger that is looking to be exploited. I would want it done constructively, but not all that I wish for comes true ;)

Someone asked me what I would do if these guys came after me and my friends. Frankly, offer them a drink and convince them you’re the guy who would fight Muslim rogues if it came to that.

Very few people seem to have the good sense and gumption to categorically condemn the acts of Rama Sena.

We are not behaving like a democracy. The goons of Rama Sena are denying the constitutional rights of the men and women to go to the pub. Since when do women have to ask permission from this organization of demented people to do what they are free to do by the constitution?

Where does it say in the Hindu scriptures that women should be beaten?

Does anyone in Mangalore remember that they are supposed to follow the Indian Law and the Indian constitution?

The Rama Sena and the related organizations should be forcefully disbanded and decimated by the Government.

Does the BJP govt and the Mangalore police have the balls to do the right thing?

They are doing this because muslims do the same to their women? Is this your justification? So, the great ‘Hindus’ of the Rama Sena are following the Islamic Shariyat?

I agree with Vinay. All the moral police, please move to Pakistan and Afghanistan and join your long lost brothers.

For the first time in my life I am ashamed to identify myself as Kannadati and as Indian.

The ram sena is quite creative. Wonder why our past saints never found this route to protect our culture. Or maybe I got it wrong. Was our culture built through beating up our women into submission? If yes, we need to learn this method on how to take care of our wives and daughters in our homes? Or is that a norm that many of us missed out on and are not following our true culture at home?

“They are doing this because muslims do the same to their women?”
– Where did you get this idea?

I’m not surprised by irrational Liberal responses to this irrational violence of the Rama Sena/BD (We don’t know yet). This way will never lead to any solution. State action will only makes things worse and not better.

The Jehadi/Islamist threat is very real, but it is not the only threat by any means. It is right up there, but not the only threat. Fringe groups like this “Sri Rama Sena” cannot be allowed to act as custodians of Hinduism. Most of these people are just plain lowlife thugs.

The Muslim excuses that we’re hearing from the Sri Rama Sena are just excuses. As you say, who would report it and how would we know the statistical truth? We may not know, but we can take a fairly reliable guess. How many Muslim boys-Hindu girls would you find in a pub in Mangalore? How many such couples do we find anyway? And how many in a pub, on THAT day? By the way, even if there was even one such couple, the Sri Rama Sena really has no business poking their prick there, because the adult Hindu girl is responsible for her own actions.

Palahalli, when you are in a pub with your girlfriend or wife, and goons come in and begin thrashing the daylights out of everyone there, do you really think you will make them sit, reason with them, tell them that you are “with them” even though your girlfriend was having beer with you? You really think you will get an opportunity?

And when an army of similar thugs goes on the rampage in Cox Town burning buses, stoning cars and tearing down lampposts, will you get down from your car, tell them that you are “with them” and offer them a glass of McDowell’s? Let the educated and middle-class crowd realize that they are not immune from riots and bloodshed just because they stay in the 3rd floor of an apartment with “security”.

Let us not get our society into a situation where such groups get too powerful for our good. Even speaking of ‘valid Hindu grievances’ Vigilante justice will get us nowhere.

Your problem is that you are looking at everything from an ‘Islamic Prism’ (couldn’t find a better phrase, but you know what I mean). This attack was by a bunch of rogues who belong to the gutter, and who call themselves “Sri Rama Sena”, self-styled “Army of Rama”. How about you look at it like this: The attack was on HINDUS by a bunch of rascals. Is getting bashed up by Hindus in some way “better” than getting bashed up by a Muslim?

South Canara district has become a laboratory for Hindutva politics in Karnataka. All these incidents could not have happenned without explicit help by the local police whose ultimate Boss happens to be the Home Minsiter Acharya who is from Udupi!!!!

People in Karnataka need to stand up to this fascist machinisations of BJP. BJP should udertand that Karnataka is not Gujarat and is more hetrogenous and liberal and their politics will ultimately fail. BJP is digging it own grave. Thanks to Rama Sena for facilitating it.

If the Hindu girls want some fun, with Muslim boys, let them have it. Likewise Muslim girls be allowed to have fun with non-muslim boys. But the problem is with the likes of Rama sene or Mulla Sene and the people who back them.

bomma – I live in Bangalore. Have never been outside India. Let’s meet sometime.

Vinay – If they don’t listen to reason, then I get into a fist fight with them. But my bet is they will listen because it would surprise them that someone in that pub sympathises with them. (On the contrary, if they are there just to create a ruckus, then fighting them is the only option. I wonder how many “men” tried to protect those girls.)

“How many such couples do we find anyway?” – I can remember two already. Both converted Hindu girls. But the point is; “sorry Vinay, it’s no longer “private affairs”. Not in our abnormal times”. That’s me to you.

Again, I have nothing against women drinking.

Vinay again, Hindu activists bashing Hindus does not make sense. What’s the gain? If you read R.Sajan, his point of “roll-call” gone awry makes sense. In that circumstance these misguided (:)) men may attack anybody there only to terrify the pub owner.

Moreover, it wasn’t me who introduced the “Islam” angle. That came with the nutty poster and some pals on this thread.

I fully understand your view point. But we as a society should atleast keep our society clean and healthy. Keep it as safe as possible for our ladies to dwell in.

The problem comes when our kids who are so courteous at home, but when in a mob, the mob fever takes over, and that is the reason for the stray incidents which you refer.

We as the protectors of our culture should ensure that any indecent exposure or vulgar display of clothing should be stopped. This will lead our youngsters to react negatively, and this will lead to crime.

I still feel our Indian culture is much better to the West, where Beauty paegents and other fashion shows are a facade for women discrimination. If you look at statistics women are sexually harassed in their work place, in public places,etc more in the West.

But we should ensure that some sort of moral policing is done by the law of the land.

And please dont expect me to move out of my country. The least you can do is try to appreciate the rich heritage of our culture.

If I wnat to drink and have fun with anyone i wish to, NO ONE, mind you, NO ONe has the right to prevent me. Not my father, brother, husband, son, inlaws, or Shiv Sena, Bhajrang Dal, Srirama sene or any f…… g organisation or indivudual in the world. All you make a note.

hmmm…to all claiming this was right/wrong…i d really like to know ur definitions of hindu culture, cos i have observed that the character/role played by women in the hindu culture changes depending on the time frame u r looking at… e.g. if u look at the brahmins history (sry bout this example but im a brahmin, so all of u who think brahmins are the roots of caste system and that we r a bane on this planet can shut ur traps and read on cos that argument is a completely different one!) anyway, in history, before invasions by mughals/turks/afghans/whichever u choose, women also had the thread ceremony and were in the habit of offering the sandhyavandana et.al. which by the way was cut down, apparently,after excessive looting and raping of women by the invaders whoever they were. this ended up being a curb on freedom of the women going out of the house et. al.

As a second example, Indian mothers…u do know the whole deal about mothers being sacred and equivalent to gods, don’t u?that is an imp aspect of hinduism if im not mistaken. But these same ones were used to wean children of british officers in british india…so their role went from being a goddess to being a servant!

And that brings me back to my question..HOW DO YOU/HOW DOE ONE DEFINE HINDU CULTURE???WHAT TIME FRAME OF OUT HINDU HISTORY ARE YOU GUYS/GIRLS LOOKING AT??? AND WHY THAT PARTICULAR TIME FRAME AND NOT A DIFFERENT ONE?

i mean do u have a logic for selecting parts of our “HOLY HISTORY” or is it jus arbitrary as u just need something to boss others around?

p.s. we also have a lot of women who fought their way up and turned out to be magnificient rulers and generals and social idols…examples…rani jhansi lakshmibai, kittur chennamma in north karnataka, akkamahadevi…et al. they are also part of hindu culture, the former two that i have mentioned led huge armies of men into a battlefield and for soldiers to trust their leader, that leader must be an ExTRAordinary person.

so i suggest that u think carefully before u say the freedom of hindu women is restricted to doing things in their own households!

This incident is certainly deplorable but I wonder if there is more than that meets the eye here. As soon as news of this spread, most news channels and other people who reacted were quick to pin it to the government. One needs to think who would gain by such an incident. It would not be difficult for some trouble makers to style themselves after some right wing outfit and do the damage. Considering the sensitivities involved, would the government or its affiliates be interested in scoring a self goal?

Have we become so meek to accept whatever comes in TV and start bashing Hindutva forces?

Take a moment and think why would Hindutva forces do something so stupid when Church episode is still fresh? Some goons claim they are Rama sene and we are all bashing everyone.

Weird to see Churumuri falling to such made for media incidents, especially when govt has already arrested the culprits. But hey you need somethinh to bash BJP so we understand.

If at all there is one culprit it is the media men who knew about attacks on girls and were perverts enough to ignore the attack for their 15 minutes of fame as breaking news. (and then got paid handsomely for it)

Ram Senas, Shiv Senas etc can only be stopped when India stops treating 3Ms with soft gloves while treating Hindus differently. What do you think? Average Hindu with a grown-up daughters in the home will disagree with Ram Sena? Huh? Mohammedans are known to “catch” Hindus as “spouse” and convert them. Are you going to disagree with me on that?

You want law and order to take on these Senas? You want them to move to some other “taalibaan” country and get out of India?

OK. Fine.

But they will be the last ones in the line. Get the bigger, much bigger, culprits first. Shall we start with moosies in Kashmir?

If a district like Dakshina Kannada has this type of talibanization, we really have a problem. We usually think that with better education, it should be possible to fight talibanization. Of all the districts in Karanataka, Dakshina Kannada is most literate and it is even claimed that it is 100% literate.

Obviosuly there is some thing terribly wrong with our educational system. In 60s and 70s we used to emphasize “national integration” in the schools. There is a need to teach tolerance on a war footing in our schools and show what talibanization has done to countries like Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc.

The problem is very deep and the analysis by the media very superficial. The attack by the Rama Sene on the women in Pubs needs to be seen from the viewpoint of Class struggle.

The women in pubs represt the rich leisure class of our soceity. The Rama sena consists of goons and thugs no doubt. But they mainly come from the poor underprevileged class. The attack on the women is deplorable no second thoughts on that. But what led to these attacks. It is not about the women not adhering to culture. Those are excuses and a comfortable pretense. The real underlying reason is the angst of the unemployed underpriveliged youth who are the underbelly of our soceity.

Why involve BJP or RSS in this? They both have condemned it.
The way folks are blaming BJP for this shows how this is a nation
of idiots.
This is a barbaric act. …needs to be condemned.
What would you folks say for this?

Bhamy>>We usually think that with better education, it should be possible to fight talibanization. Of all the districts in Karanataka, Dakshina Kannada is most literate and it is even claimed that it is 100% literate

You are wrong Sir. Fundamentalism has no relation with education, rather educated class breeds fundamentalism.

Sikh militancy (though not at all comparable with Islamic facism) was seen in Punjab which in 1980s was MOST PROSPEROUS STATE IN INDIA.

Leaders of Islamic facism – Laden, Al Jawahiri to the very guy from bangalore who tried to blow up British airport are rich, highly educated.

Read history of Islamic Brotherhood, Hamas etc..all these are filled with University students, college students.

Iranian Islamic revolution was lead by University students of Tehran.

WE HAVE BEEN FED ANOTHER WRONG FUNDA BY PSUEDOS THAT EDUCATION WILL CURE EVERYTHING. Aggressive Hindutva, again not comparable with Islamism, Islamic facism, is also product of educated class.

What we are seeing today, the Sri Ram Sena etc, are not illiterate, but moderately educated class. They have no jobs, as Govt is busy giving sops to minorities and others caring little for “class”. What you expect people to do? The problem is bound to increase with time. And I would say , wide coverage by NDTV is playing directly into their hands. Violence for a ’cause’ gives them legitimacy. They feel great . For further psychological analysis, read Ashis Nandy, Sudhir Kakkar.

I belong to a middle class, so called ‘educated’, and come from a less conservative society than (say) Karnataka. I will NOT support girls drinking beer in a mid level city like Mangalore and dancing with romeos. Middle class people have a weired mindset. Lets accep it. What is acceptable in cosmopolitan Bangalore is not acceptable in Mangalore.

No opposition leader worth its salt, particularly from a coservative society like Karnataka (no offence please) will openly support dancing with skimpy dress and drinking with jehadi romeos in Bar.

It may be a news to NDTV, but to vast Indians, it makes no news. Nobody supports beating up people. But the whole issue is blown out of proportion by vested interest in media. But its going to expand base of Sri Ram Sena. This is a true fact.

“an”, for lack of a better name; branding is for horses and if you’re a Homo Sapien, then branding is an art/hobby that our Liberals, Seculars, Communists, Fascists and assorted “targeted minorities” indulge in in order to brand their opponents who otherwise strip them (Liberals, Seculars, et al) naked every time they dare to reveal themselves in public.

Have you ever been to the “Morally Corrupt West”? Have you stayed there for an extended period of time? Have you worked there? I think not. You are thoroughly brainwashed into thinking that Indian culture is soooo great that we are automatically much much better than the West.

You said: “If you look at statistics women are sexually harassed in their work place, in public places,etc more in the West”
Where are the statistics? Show me? Boss, the West is a better and safer place to live in for Women. Much much more so. We should recognize this instead of burying our heads and bodies in sand like the typical ostrich.

You said: “We as the protectors of our culture should ensure that any indecent exposure or vulgar display of clothing should be stopped. This will lead our youngsters to react negatively, and this will lead to crime.”
You, sir, are the protector of your OWN culture, and possibly your dependents’ culture. You are NOT the protector of MY culture, or of anyone else who is commenting on this board. You cannot define what culture I must follow. I will decide that for myself and possibly for my children, as long as they are minors and dependent on me.
Youngsters in your “corrupt West” do not “react negatively” to “indecent exposure” no? And neither do I? Do you think that Indian males will have some premature ejaculation on seeing “vulgar clothes”? What are we, some society of psycopaths and mentally unsound people?

“The least you can do is try to appreciate the rich heritage of our culture.”
Ashoka, I appreciate my culture, probably more than you do. What I do not do is trying to impose my view on a billion people. While you’re at it, why don’t you start a campaign to destroy the temples of Khajuraho? I’m sure they offend your sensibilities?!!! Why don’t you start a campaign to burn down and expunge all scriptures which speak of apsaras and damsels descending on earth? Etc. etc. etc. etc…. ad infinitum.

What we are slowly becoming (if we have not already become), is a society of mass hypocrites.

Mr. Asoka…….
“I still feel our Indian culture is much better to the West, where Beauty paegents and other fashion shows are a facade for women discrimination. If you look at statistics women are sexually harassed in their work place, in public places,etc more in the West.

And please dont expect me to move out of my country. The least you can do is try to appreciate the rich heritage of our culture.”

I just want to ask you have you ever lived in the WEST or is it just your imagination with what you hear on the news. Obviously you have no clue whatso ever.

You know the reason you find out that women at work are harrassed, and in public places in the west is because incidents like that are more reported becaus there is justice and freedom for the women in the WEST. The same if happens in india will be silenced by the police or any other authority if proper bribe is paid.

You claim vulgarity and indecency but do you ever protest against whats shown on TV and/or movies. Your kids are not learning all these bad things from a few girls going to pubs instead from TV do you pay attention to them as much or you think Hinduism is going to make them better. Good parenting is what makes kids better adults not a religion.

Women in the WEST have more choice and options and they also have equality. Yeah I agree India has rich heritage and culture but isn’t it time we stop claiming all the great monuments and TEMPLES as our culture and show real culture by being human beings. Stop with the whole culture thing because deep inside we are the most close minded people and hypocrites.

I am a peace loving ordinary person, living near to Mangalore.I am horrified by the pub incident that took place in Mangalore.First and foremost, keep aside whehther the girls taking beer, is right or wrong. What is absolutely unaccepteble is Rama sena’s interference. Who are they to chase and beat up girls? What the police sysetem is doing? I stiil have little faith in police system. I don’t want to see a system parallel to police system.I am really not happy with the way Home minister Dr V S Acharya’s functioning.Don’t allow cats and dogs to handle our sister’s interests. Their parents will look after them. Let rama sena goons first set their attitude right. I am sure if their own lady love wanted to visit pubs, surely they will take them there…if not in Mangalore but at other place.
By the way, why these rama sena goons don’t exists in Bangalore…if they do the same thing there,they will be chased and beaten by the people the same way they did it to the girls in Mangalore.Ofcourse if the girls are involved in an un-lawful activity, let them be punishe by the law. But respect other’s private life and interest. Live and let live.

Maybe it is scripted, may be not. But the first thing to do is to catch all the culprits and punish them severely. The govt has to show who is the authority. Is it too much to expect the govt to show some guts ?

Also, the lesson is for all govts… AP should similarly have reigned the muslim hooligans when they tried to attack Taslima….

Putt Ninja
Your argument is so flawed it does not even make sense. Just because a woman happens to be in a pub, is it a sign that she is from “upper class”? A lot of women…in many cities… do go out to pub/discos and they are from your “average middle class”.
If the “lower class” feels that by attacking women who go to pub will help them uplift their condition..then I’d rather want those “lower class” people to be put behind the bars.

“angst of the unemployed underpriveliged youth”

Yeah, right. According to this logic, now all Sathyam employees (who are more likely to go jobless in a few months) should start such outfits and demand better treatment from society..whatever that means!

The fundamental problem here is that … a lot of men are not taught to respect a woman and look at her point of view. I have seen this in my friends. The crass vulgarity encompasses all classes and not restricted to a particular lower class. It is especially painful when Indians visit abroad…their ogling, crass flirting and commens is sickening.

Mr. Mukherjee, I have left a comment for you on the other post on this issue in Churumuri, the editorial of Deccan Herald.

And I must say that I feel sorry for your comment above which reads

“WE NEED TO PROTECT THE FREEDOM OF WOMEN TO WEAR SKIMPY DRESS, DRINK AND DANCE WITH ROMEOS. AND OUR LEADERS MUST LEAD US.

Interested?”

It’s worse than a graffiti on the walls of a public urinal and I had not read this comment from you before I wrote a comment for you on the other post. Can a man capable of such below the belt talk be capable of any healthy thoughts? I really feel sorry for the ridiculous opinion you carry on individual freedom. Keep your socialism, capitalism, communism and all other “ism”‘s aside and think of a human being and nature. Are you justified in victimising others for your beilef. Give up your life if you cannot tolerate but why kill others for your beliefs, why stop others from pursuing what they feel is correct. Who assigned you such responsibility?

I am sorry but I do not see any difference in the thought process of a jehadi, a fundamentalist muslim and an educated critic like you.

Please learn to respect other freedom and of course this freedom ends where others nose begins.

Absolutely right. Our great “Tathagata Mukherjee” pretends to be a great scholar with excellent knowledge on current affairs and history, and a Phd in the theory of Islamic Jihad. For all his big talk, he is just another Jihadi, who shows the hypocrisy typically displayed by a Mullah. Had he been born in Pakistan or Afghanistan, he would certainly not have been a “moderate”. He would have been a venom spewing Mullah on the FBI’s most-wanted list.

Whether girls go to pubs, drink beer/wine/whisky or whatever, that’s their personal choice. Self proclaimed guardians of Hindu culture who get into such acts should be condemned by one and all. Such things like beating women who visit pubs etc happen in our country because our government is very weak.( whichever party) . It doesn’t want to take action against such hooligans simply because they have powerful and political god fathers . Unless our government is strong and takes this as criminal offence , there will be more such acts in future. On the one hand we are talking of women empowerment and on the other we are letting a bunch of goondas decide whether women should this or that. It is a shame that in this century we are debating ‘Girls drinking beer not Hindus’. Really Some things happen only in India.

Muslim mullah types must be happy that their agenda is being implemented by these ram sene, bajrang dal hooligans.

And then you have people who defend criminal behaviour against citizens on online forums by saying muslim men snare our women in pubs (can it get more ridiculous). I drink but some girl I dont know cannot, how do you know this even happened, this is a conspiracy, muslim this-muslim that, hindu this-hindu, secular, liberal blah blah.

All to prove that the ram sene, bajrang dal, rss types are the same as taliban in their infancy.

Basically the same arguments given by any religious fanatic.

It is quite funny :)

***

I think Tathagatta does not have any woman in his life. Or for that matter any man.

If he stopped living on internet forums and got a life he would stop bitching and do something for himself. Less wikipedia, more real life.

Maybe Putta nanja is right – this is probably the angst of young men who think this is part of a class struggle. This is how frustrated young men will behave anywhere whether they are muslim, hindu or christian.

***

karihaida, pepper spray is already available. You get one with a cobra printed on it in shops. If the pic of the mean snake is an indication, the contents must be deadly too.

Probably works in a one on one face off, if a few girls are faced by 40 or 50 horny and frustrated ‘indian youth’, it would be suicidal for them to use it.

***

Palahalli,

No I dont want to meet you – you might get drunk and misbehave with women passing by.

That’s the problem with some women. They wear these cleavage showing dresses. You want to wear these tight tight tight jeans which literally stick to their rear ends. You wear such low cut jeans that they almost fall off their bodies. They wear low-cut blouses, skimpy tops and backless cholis and walk around in broad daylight.

They wear these insanely provactive dresses (I’ve seen so many older women wearing backless cholis with their saris), college students who wear these super-skimpy tops and super-low cut jeans displaying acres of skin. I’m just as liberal as the next guy and am all for women’s rights but if you’re going to walk around in a dress that might be suitable for NY or LA in Bangalore or Mumbai you’re asking for trouble. Still less in Mangalore.

Make no mistake I am as open-minded as any body else and am all for women’s liberation and freedom. But there are norms that you have to follow in a society which believes in moral values and still sticks to its age-old traditions. We believe in Indian culture and its age-old norms; values and norms which are older than Christ and Columbus. These values are part of the warp and woof of our society and are part of our 5000 year old tradition.

Those who fail to understand this are the real anti-nationals.

P.S. These values cannot be given up because some women want to walk around half-naked.

You need to maintain a limit. Extreme in any direction is bad.
We all are people who want to live in a healthy and vibrant society. So we should educate our youngsters and ladies to maintain and nurture our cultural values.

I am a religious Kannadiga Hindu girl who frequents pubs, loves whiskey, does not choose friends based on religion, and is responsible enough to take care of my loved ones and not cause any sort of harm to anyone. So whats ‘indecent’ about me? I have been visiting the pubs and lounge bars of Bangalore for many years… and you know which is the MOST vulgar thing Ive seen happening in a Karnataka pub? Its this video shown in the news…. goons (who appear to be drunk) belting those unarmed teenager girls! This is VULGAR!

***

To people having teenage children, supporting these Ram Sena goons, i would say….. with parents such as yourself, your children are EITHER sneaking behind your back and going to pubs, drinking, watching porn, and probably even indulging in pre-marital sex, OR obey you unwillingly, dont know how to think for themselves, have self-esteem issues, and suffer some serious damage to their personalities! (For their betterment, I hope the former one is the truth, cos that will not spoil their entire life and future like the later one!)

yes, with a parent such as yourself, either one of it is definitely true! Wake up!

***

And wait a minute…. what? ‘jihadi romeos’ hunting down girls in pubs!!! Hahahahaha this is the most ridiculous thing Ive ever heard my entire life!! What the hell is wrong with people…. arent they even embarrassed by making fools of themselves while speaking such ludicrous stuff?

OK, I will try to stop laughing and give a serious response to this… open your eyes and look around! Firstly, Jihadis (who are a mirror image on ram sena) consider alcohol as sinful (another similarity), and a pub would be the safest place to keep away from such elements! OK, even if you assume for a minute that the ‘wrong kind of guys’ are waiting in the pubs to ‘lure’ girls into eloping with them leaving their entire world behind them…. let me tell you one thing, look around…. (even though I try my best to avoid generalizations and ‘type’ casts, this one coming up is the one I can bet my life on, because it has happened hundreds of times around me) what are the type of girls who ‘elope’ with their boyfriends? See carefully, its not the pub going girl! its the shy girl in the neighbourhood, who would sit on the first bench in college and try to appear to be as obedient a child as possible, and who would shudder at the mention of the word alcohol. these are the type of girls who get ‘lured’. An average pub going girl MAY date more than one guy, dress the way she wants, is usually very bold and independent, drinks like a fish and has a sailor’s mouth…. but she DOES NOT get ‘lured’! Get that! She does not get lured into doing stupid things like leaving her house, family, religion, job, freedom for some stupid man she met at the pub! Thats an average pub going girl! (Not that I have anything against people who elope… its their wish… i have no problem… but this is an observation I am dead sure about.)

take my word for it, you Ram sena supporter or the person ‘worried’ for all the pub going Hindu girls… because you have not spent even a hundredth of the time with pub going girls, of what I have spent… I AM one of them…. so take my word for it!

***

And talking about Indian culture (firstly, decide what you want to take about, hindu culture or Indian culture? because they are two diffrent things. hindu culture is a part of indian culture)….. yeah, talking about indian culture, you moron, go learn what the culture is, and then try to protect it!

Proud Hindu, if you have a problem with the clothes women wear, why don’t you just blindfold yourself? And ask your Ram Sena friends to do so too. Please do not impose your 13th century views on other people. The last I checked India wa a free country and you are not the arbiter of culture nor the protector of your faith, which by the way sucks if it has followers like you.

The people who are part of Sri rama sena or Bajrang dal are the biggest drunkards i have seen.. They dont have any work…this is the way to earn money..All the people of this country should be together to facethese kind of groups…

Perfectly stated. Now if only some of our “culture defenders” get this drummed into their skulls.

Ashoka and friends, take note. Reflect upon what your parenting might be doing to your children. And for God’s sake, now don’t lock up your daughter and cane her to “extract a confession”. Just mentioning this coz’ the similarities between you and Talibani Mullahs are too many for comfort. Who knows?

This so-called ‘Proud Hindu’ can take his pride and shove it up. There was a Mullah in Australia who created a sensation by blaming girls for getting raped, saying that they were ‘uncovered meat’, and have only themselves to blame. ‘Proud Hindu’ is the Hindu counterpart of that Mullah.

Compare the pub incident with Taslima Nareen’s being roughed up by a gang led by an MLA in August 2007, inside a Press Club at Hyderabad. Remember the Hyderabad Police filing a case AGAINST the author for “causing” the incident. http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/aug/11taslima.htm

Ours is indeed a country of multi-cultures. They are all however, united in their treatment of women.

Sakshi>>OK, I will try to stop laughing and give a serious response to this… open your eyes and look around! Firstly, Jihadis (who are a mirror image on ram sena) consider alcohol as sinful (another similarity), and a pub would be the safest place to keep away from such elements!

Madam, go and check the bomber who did 711 mumbai train blasts/ There were many reports in the Indian Express on that guy. That guy did hide his identity, used a Hindu Name, flirted with a girl in a pub, used to sip scotch fluently. Needless to say, he was a jehadi bomber.

Go ahead and enjoy your time in bar. However, please spare us from the crapy logic you have written.

Indian wisdom is also the wisdom of Ananga-ranga and Kama-sutra.
Nobody that has studied our ancient books would say that nudity and sex are anti-Hindu. We were more attuned to nature and not to fake viewpoints.

Modern Hinduism came from Adi Sankara who wrote Soundarya-lahari. We worship Shiv Ling as penetrating Parvati’s Yoni, in our temples. Durga or Kali is depicted even in the Calendars hung in our Puja rooms as having sex with her father Lord Shiv, with Shiv under her. Why should we be ashamed to own and claim that we were more modern than any modern Western culture, even in those days?

It is the Victorian Missionary ignorance that makes these Sena-s act the way they do. The rules laid down by Mohammed and Moses were for a people that were no better than animals in those days. India of those times already had a civilised people that could discuss sex as the most pleasurable thing given to all living beings.

I oppose the Siva and Rama Sena initiatives because they are in their colossal ignorance, against the Hindu codes of sex and morals.

Naming the outfit as Rama Sena might have had something to do with Karunanidhi’s describing Ram as a drunkard??

The real reasons for Sena acts everywhere are publicity and money – not culture!

That’s the problem with some women. They wear these cleavage showing dresses. You want to wear these tight tight tight jeans which literally stick to their rear ends. You wear such low cut jeans that they almost fall off their bodies. They wear low-cut blouses, skimpy tops and backless cholis and walk around in broad daylight. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Proud Hindu Sir, can you explain to me how else they can attract members of the opposite sex. Dont tell me that you are offended when you see a sexy woman. On the contrary, you must be feeling jealous at the woman’s partner and wish that she wold atleast notice your hardon.

Mr Proud Hindu. It lies in the eyes of the beholder what they see. I say it’s really none of your business to bother what other women wear. Why cant we accept that women are equals and share the same right to live, dress eat and behave as a man in the society.
I dont know what your qualifications are but I’m sure there are enough women who are better qualified and educated than you are. As far as your stupid excuse about tradition goes, if we were maintaining tradition and shunning change in the society, we would all still be dressed in loin clothes and topless.
If you are really interesteds to know visit the Shri Rama Sena hang outs, learn about these sick souls who indulged in the act. It’ll be an eye opener for you to know that they are the worst, corrupt and most immoral people in the society.
And I want someone to give me an answer, “why Amnesia?” “why that day?” “Have the Sena activists been blind till now when so many pubs have been serving liquor for years?”
Explain to me Mr Proud Indian what’s the reason of attacking a pub few days after it was opened. And if you have so much respect for the women, why beat them up. And if you want to beat them up like all you stone age self proclaimed Proud Indians do in your houses why do you need the cameras?
Please Mister, we dont need this kind of behaviour keeping us stuck as the third world country. I think the youths should channel their energy into finding themselves a job and looking after their families.
To preserve your religion you dont need to become beasts. And if you want to support the beasts who bash up indians who work and pay their taxes, being a liability to the society, I’m sorry I really cant respect you or your thoughts. Think about this seriously!

THIRUVANANTHAPURAM: Intelligence agencies have begun a probe into the mysterious disappearance of a student of a Mangalore nursing college and her arrival at an Islamic seminary in Kerala’s Kozhikode.

The incident assumes significance following reports that Pakistan’s ISI has been giving training to women for jihad. Intelligence sleuths say four people, including two from Kerala, have been involved in the recruitment of women cadre for jihad, especially after 26/11.

With Mangalore’s links with terror modules coming out in the open, intelligence agencies suspect there may be a racket operating in the region to woo women. SIMI is believed to have established a women’s wing in Kerala.

What Hindu culture are you talking about. Do you know anything at all about Indian / Hindu history and culture. Please go to Beluru and Halebidu and spend some time looking at the sculptures out there. See also the depiction of women and the fashion of those times.

Indian soceity during those times was far more liberal and open in terms of dress and fashion than we can ever think off. It was mainly because of the invasions and influence of middle eastern culture and victiorian puritanism that the veiling of women and purdah system came about. The Hindu culture you are so proud about was sexually very liberal.

That apart till quite a century ago in our neighbouring state of Kerala, women of certain communities never used to cover their breasts. Is this not a part of our culture. In Karnataka we also had the ‘betthale seve’ of goddess Yellama. This has now been stopped due to court injunctions. In the Kumb Mela the Naga Sadhus expose themselves in front of hordes of people. Why don’t these Rama Sene morons protest against them. What about Saints like Akka Mahadevi who walked without any clothes.

Rama Sena is a reactonary organization who have their own standards of dressing and social intercourse modeled on the lines of Islamic Sharia. The only people who can be happy and provide theological support to Ram Sene are Wahhabi muslims who beleive in the literal interpretation of Quaran and thereby the Sharia Law. Ram Sene please spare the Hindus.

No purported supporter of the Rama Sena on this forum, has denied Hindu heritage as picturized by anti-Rama Sena folks on this forum.

Some picturizations –

1. Women going about their works bare breasted.

– Great! Let’s have it now! Can I ask that my female teamsters display their librealism by “barely” attending office?

2. We worship Shiv Ling as penetrating Parvati’s Yoni, in our temples. Durga or Kali is depicted even in the Calendars hung in our Puja rooms as having sex with her father Lord Shiv, with Shiv under her.

– Super! Let take pictures of our respective Lingas penetrating respective Yonis and hang them up on our walls. Of course they might be less worthy of worship, but the point will have been underlined. Soon after, shall we have another discussion of how many fathers on this forum have had sex with their daughters? That should really separate the Liberal Men from the Rama Sena boys!

3. Let Rama Sena go and destroy Khajuraho!

– No reason why they should. Like I said, no one has argued against Hindu heritage. But, i’ll want those amazing postures replicated in those settings. Are the female members on this forum game? Let’s give ourselves enough time to reach those levels of physical fitness though :)

When answers from Liberal and “freedom” loving folks is in the affirmative, we can plan further.

My personal note – Let us not talk about things we do not understand. Let us try to understand them better rather than use our very limited knowledge to make complete asses of ourselves. On Sexual Promiscuity in Khajuraho, there are wonderful articles on Hindu view of Sex and Sexuality. I think Sandeep’s Web carries one such article. I’ll recommend it to anyone who is really open minded and not fashionably so.

@Sophist:
“That apart till quite a century ago in our neighbouring state of Kerala, women of certain communities never used to cover their breasts. Is this not a part of our culture. ”

Kerala Hindus are all Shoodras and lower. Only the few Namboodoris are Brahmins. There are no Kshatriyas and Vaishyas. The invading Aryans categorised all Mallus as lower to them in Varna.

The Bare Breast rule was put in place to signify the low-casteness; not as part of Hindu liberality. Only Namboodiri women were authorised to cover their breasts. In Travancore, there was even a Mula Karam, or Breast Tax. If any non-Namboodiri woman covered her breasts, she was fined a Mula Karam.

The actual reason for the Bare Breast-ness was the voyeurism of the decadent Namboodiris.

It is Because of Kerala Hindus’ apprehension of a Brahmin-dominated BJP destroying Kerala society further, that BJP never gets even an MLA in Kerala.

Spare a thought for the parents of these girls! They would not be overjoyed to see their daughters swaying drunken, or dancing around in the arm of another boy. Don’t they have right to protect their wards?

Also think of Jessica Lal case. Girls found in pubs amidst drunken wolves are more likely to be molested or subjected to violence, than someone walking around on the street.

Of course what Rama Sena did is totallh wrong. But one thing should be cleared now. Many media have blown up the issue out of proportion because they have an clear agenda. Take Times of India. They want to promote these pub, party culture because they want to make more money by publishing those picture in page 3 in either Bangalore Times or Mumbai Times.

Though incident had happened on Saturday now it got big from Monday onwards. Most of the journalists are in the hands of liquor baron like Vijay Mallya. NDTV any how having partnership with Vijay Mally. So these liquor baron indirectly egging media to blow up the issue out of proportion. Compare to any other states in the country, Karnataka is even now safe for criminals, drug edicts, drinkers, and prostitution. Let such pub culture take place in any where in Tamil Nadu then one can see what would happen to them.

IN Delhi Congress Government is feeding journalists because they have groomed all scribes by giving Padma Bhushan awards either it is for Barkha Datt, Rajdeev Sardesai or Shekher Gupta. May be next year Arnab Goswami of Times Now will definitely get for his shouting before the screen.

Take Times of India Mumbai edition on January 28. In front page they carried arrest of Pramodh Muthalik in three column story while attack on university campus by MNS activists in Maharashtra is in just one para. Though MNS activists continues to create havoc by attacking north Indian all now media is highlighting on small issue happened in Mangalore. Though I am not Karnataka I still consider that state which I currently live Karnataka is safest place compare to any other part of the country.

Times of India Bangalore edition have clear instructions from Vijay Mallya and others who protects them by paying huge advertisement money. Because of more and more attack happened many people may scare to go to bar which would ultimately leading to suffering by liquor companies’ coffer.

Namboodiris came into Kerala around 800 AD. They claim they are the only Brahmins. They say they are Aryans. They dominated Kerala for centuries. Their ways only made Vivekananda call Kerala [Malabar] a lunatic asylum.http://www.namboothiri.com
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Namboodiri
“Once upon a time, not so long ago, Swami Vivekananda went to Kerala. He was so outraged by the overt discrimination that he saw there that he declared the place a lunatic asylum. He was incensed by the extraordinarily cruel practices that were imposed on so called ‘lower caste’ people.

Obviously, temples were out of bounds to them. So were public wells. The ‘upper castes’ eating together with them was clearly out of the question. ‘Lower caste’ people were not allowed to cover the upper parts of their bodies: so women had to go bare-breasted, and were prohibited from wearing jewelry. They had to use extremely self-abasing language to refer to themselves, and at the same time had to use fulsome praise in referring to the ‘upper castes’: thus reinforcing with every word the gulf between themselves and their masters, and thereby their own unworthiness.”http://www.rediff.com/news/2004/aug/30rajeev.htm

I agree it is the concern of the parents regarding their wards. But dont you think if it’s really about the parents and the girls you are worried about, the sena activists could’ve silently arranged this or called up the parents to let them know instead of involving in a reckless behaviour like this?
Moreover I personally feel it will be better if parents maintain a friendlier relationship with their kids and they will tell them on their own where they go and what they do. The youth of today is responsible enough for their actions and it’s high time you treat them as adults.
No one goes to the pubs to get drunk or molested. There are more jobless jerks on the road like your so called activists who pass cheap comments at women than the men in the clubs and pubs. So kindly stop thinking like a freak and try to know the youth of today closely. This is more of a reality than your stone age culture you are trying to preserve. Our culture lies in respecting women and humanity reaching beyond anything. Both of which have been violated by these goons. Please help in destroying such mentality instead of supporting a dirty act like this.

“sane indian” – Every generation is romanticized. The same is happening with our latest generation too.

Everybody wants to teach their dads how to @#%@..

The thing is, the Rama Sene activists who roughed up the pub-folk, are also of this generation. Kindly reconcile that fact within yourself.

You display you’re abundant grasp of the situation and you’re “culture” when you yell – “This is more of a reality than your stone age culture you are trying to preserve.”

Gururaj has been very mild and fatherly in his post. Pay more attention to what he says.

“Our culture lies in respecting women and humanity reaching beyond anything.” – So, you’re some kind of “world is my home and humanity is my family” freak case. Good enough.

When you speak of “respecting” women, have you thought beyond allowing for “any” kind of “behavior” that will certify “freedom” and “liberty”?

You’re angst against the fellows who misbehaved is valid but what happened to the men who were in that pub? Where was the responsibility of the owners and the girls’ escorts? Isn’t that a responsibility “you’re” generation must take on, too? I say, when you cannot muster the balls to stand up and protect you’re woman when she’s attacked…then don’t you dare speak of “allowing” women to do what they want and be what they want!

I’m sure even free-wheeling “Sakshi” will not step out with a flubber for an escort.

Mind you, I have two daughters and I will not stop them from doing anything right. And if they want to pub hop when their time comes I’m going to make sure that they can protect themselves and if they are in company, I’m going to make sure that I check the quality of balls that’s on “that” company.

Sajan – Thanks for the links and I am grateful. I also found this editorial note –

“* NOTE: Readers may note that the issue of whether there was an “Aaryan Invasion” of India, or they were indigenous to the land, or there was a series of migrations with resultant cultural absorptions and adaptations, is yet to be resolved. Archeologists, historians, linguists, social scientists, anthropologists, politicians, and a host of “experts” are still arguing and have not reached any consensus.

– Editor”

Again Sajan, you could have posted the entire paragragh in the latter part of you’re post.

“Obviously, temples were out of bounds to them. So were public wells. The ‘upper castes’ eating together with them was clearly out of the question. ‘Lower caste’ people were not allowed to cover the upper parts of their bodies: so women had to go bare-breasted, and were prohibited from wearing jewelry. They had to use extremely self-abasing language to refer to themselves, and at the same time had to use fulsome praise in referring to the ‘upper castes’: thus reinforcing with every word the gulf between themselves and their masters, and thereby their own unworthiness. Interestingly, the most intolerant were not the Nambudiri Brahmins, but ‘high’ Sudra castes just barely above the ‘lower castes’.”

I am now reading your comment on this post after replying to you on the other one. It’s qute unfortunate that a responsible father of 2 girls child can use such language. Don’t you ever feel dirty resorting to such gymnastics of the tongue? I request you again, please restrict yourself from such foul language.

Not yet. And perhaps, one reason is that India does not have a liberal gun culture for people with political connections (like R.Sena) to obtain weapons. (and pls don’t begin a discussion on ‘right to bear arms’ now. I am a member of ‘indiansforguns’ and I support more liberal arms licencing).

Another reason why R.Sena is not at the same level as the Taliban is because India has not been at war for 3 decades, with machine guns and grenades floating freely in bazaars.

What I am saying is, the mental makeup of R.Sena and Taliban is remarkably similar. The wise person learns from contemprorary history and realizes what needs to be nipped in the bud. If R.Sena is not as vicious as the Taliban, it is because of a lack of opportunity and capability, not because of any nobility of thought.

If given a chance, R.Sena would set up a ‘commitee for prevention of vice and promotion of virtue’, similar to Saudi Arabia. And would have gangs of barely educated men roam the streets to ‘punish’ moral trangression.

bomma – If a father cannot understand a man worthy or unworthy, then where is the point? And why the Rama Sene boys? They don’t even visit pubs to drink!

Why Prashant Bhat? Why should you be bothered about me being “dirty”? You’ve resigned yourself from this society and its politics. Rest well under you’re stone…undisturbed. While folks like me deal with real life.

When you want to make the sort of argument as you did, you might want to check on their respective well springs.

I might add that abusing Rama Sene et al as “Taliban” of some sort may be self satisfying but more dangerously, you’re also closing you’re mind to very valid concerns that are shared by, like I said, their supporters like me.

Palahalli, What makes you think no one stood up for the girls there? i know and i agree it’s the pub owners’ job too to take care and give protection. If you watch the tapes closely there were biys who stood up. But how much can you do when a 40 people crowd’s pounding on you? And I said my generation cos it’s surely not the guys who beat up people who woke up one morning and said “You know what? Let’s beat up the girls going to the pubs.” People who’ve fed them this crap is some fool who’s never tried to accept change.

And tell me Palahalli, do you expect your daughters to always go to the pubs with a bodyguard? Who’ll protect them all the time? I want the society to protect them. To stop this meaningless bullshit and thing what it means when they say “women are supposed to be like our mothers”.

Dont you guys chain a woman to being a mother alone. A woman is an individual in every sense. And she has every right to do, think and say what she likes. No one has any right to stop them.

A woman has the same brains that a man has. Men need to accept there will be a change and learn to adjust to it decently. 50 years back people who resisted change had problems with women working. Women who got married were expected to stay at home and raise kids. Things have changed now, most men want a working woman so they can help them out with finances. We accepted a change and look where we are. It didn’t come easy but it was worth it. But it was surely based on a man’s need. It’s not cos the women want to work that you let them work.

Think from a woman’s point of view as well. Ask your daughters would they decide who they go out with when they grow up or would they choose their own, like you said, “men with balls!”

I’m not rambling shit here Palahalli most people today agree with what i say. I respect the older generation for what they are. I’m not saying everything’s stone age. But not accepting change surely is. If one man goes deviant in the society you punish him. What are you gonna do if most people do what they want to and it’s not legally incorrect? Think if your society is heading for a change and understand how to deal with it instead of acting like animals.

People are so angry about this incident, they can go and do the same thing with those sena activists. Check the church incidents for example. But they dont cos that’s not the solution for the problem.

Please try to give women their due. Men dont have big muscles to protect women. I’m sure women can do it on their own. Just dont use your brawn against women who’ve not done any harm to you.

Prashanth Bhat – Now you’re against any notion of Hindus defending themselves? Well well…on track you are.

sane indian – I don’t know what you’re definition of “standing up” to aggression is, but if the general tendency to view bullies as cowards is true, then you’re factually wrong or you haven’t been in a situation, to know better.

You want “society” to protect women? What is “society”? It is you and I. Look no further than that.

You know what? I’d have more respect for you’re kinda “men” if they actually beat up the Rama Sena guys. I think even the Rama Sena would feel better in knowing that women are not really helpless.

On you’re “women” points; you have simply assumed too many things. Stay away from assumptions.

Hope your daughters never have to deal with ram sene types who consider women as inferior and have to be kept at home and slapped around. But maybe they already see that attitude in you. You write condescendingly about sakshi (not that it matters on this forum, I doubt if she is reading your repeated queries) and you assume that women have to seek protection from a man. You drink alone :)

As far as I can see, the ram sene thugs slapped some people who were in a pub. And who is defending what Hindus here? Its just some thugs in the name of Ram sene and hinduism doing their thing. And being protected by their political handlers in the RSS and BJP (I can see you getting all pissy at the mention of these abbreviations). Are you some kind of ram sene organizer?

Bomma,
Very funny. When did I take such a liberty with Kaangis?? Its just that the way one can speculate about BJP connection to Rama Sene, we can also speculate congress connection to it.
Why doesnt the Kaangi connection come out in the media??

Arjun Gehlot is also following suit against pub culture. Liberals have no reaction against that. Surprises me. No one is questioning him for the curb on freedom. :)

(Tongue in cheek)
The C.M. of Karnataka wants to do away with plub culture. Now, I have heard of club and pub but, what’s this plub?
What about liquor shops abounding and men drinking to glory and making a nuisance so that women cannot walk past?
And that Ghelot, he cannot bear gals and guys walking hand in hand to malls and pubs. Poor soul. Nobody has come forward to hold his hand. If I can, I’ll dearly love to catch his ears!

Once a child is 18, how can a parent hope to control it? If the child wants to drink or fornicate, can you stop it from so doing?

Again, these rules of ancient morality were made when men and women were married at 10 or 12. Society thus gave them openings to vent their seeds legally.
If after such license, they still went about cheating and flirting, they had to be punished.

These days, you do not let a girl marry unless she has a job. A guy self-indulges his youth away and marries after 30. The body will out in its prime, whatever stupid rules you try to impose.

Lower marriage ages to puberty. Or let them have their fun. 90% of our psychoses are caused by lack of sex.

What the hell? Did you watch Times Now, CNN IBN and NDTV just now? Times Now had this Gehlot business as its headline! They displayed all the crime statistics in Rajasthan in huge fonts, and used dialogues like “Don’t you think you are missing the point, Mr. CM?” CNN IBN said something like, “In true politician style, he made a perfect U-turn”. CNN IBN also interviewed Priya Dutt and Sheila Dixit on this Gehlot issue!

Sandesh:

It does seem that in this particular incident, the media has been very unbiased. I have been hearing this ‘Media is pro congress’ for a very long time now. Since I wasn’t in India, I used to believe what I read on blogs about the media being ‘pro congress’. Now, I really do feel that a lot of it is propaganda. I have seen them going hammer and tongs after the congress during the Mumbai attacks, and that too personally with RR Patil, Shivraj Patil and Deshmukh. I have seen on NDTV a couple of days back, Prannoy Roy gave a lifetime achievement award to Advani. I have seen them go behind Mayawati, Yediyurappa, Deve Gowda, Mamata Bannerjee, Achutanandan, and everyone else out there.

Please take whatever liberty you want with Congress. And it is obvious in your post that you are doing so. Just know that BJP is another political party not very different from the congress, who will do anything for votes, right or wrong. But you wont admit that since you are a full time supporter of BJP.

yeah the taliban too want to ban all pubs and drinking, and they dont want to restrict the ban to only women. They would sure be happy with gehlot and his lot. Its pretty easy to pander to the lowest common denominator and go banning easy targets which dont have much effect on society at large anyway.

Sandesaa,
Of course. But no one is screaming on top of their voices in media. Today a Muslim JDS MLA has said he supports ban on “Pub” culture in TOI. Dunno why the burkhas and Sagarikas arent crying foul against Gehlot. They dont discuss Gehlot and caangis with the same zeal when they try BJP. :) The culprits have been arrested, but still you keep on harping on the same old thing. Come back and revisit it if the state government doesn’t take further action from there.

If media is fair then, they have to give equal screen space to both. :)

Scams unearthed during BJP, they made a huge fuss. But there is no coverage or pressure or even a discussion on the spectrum allocation scam. :)

They are giving so much of screen space to this issue that, they have stopped discussing 26/11 and pakistans statements. There is no media channel which is reporting the happenings is North-East.

If you cannot understand my point of view you never will. I tried to think about what you say but though some part of it makes sense most of it just says you are adamant in believing that being liberal is being reckless. Please grow up. I hope you understand some day that change is destroying us very little compared to the fight that’s put against it.

We are not the ones who control change. Everything has it’s course. And for your comment about me being “world is my home and humanity my religion freak”, I guess I am one. Only in your case you take me as a freak. If you ever consider adopting this “freak” idea you’d have more tolerance to different cultures.

R. Sajan –
Correction – An “independent” and “liberated” woman these days marries late or as is the growing trend, rather does not marry at all, because of her career choices. (Please note, these are self made choices)

– A man also marries late for the reasons you mention and additionally, for such things as “familial” responsibilities. Getting siblings married off etc.

No one is trying to “impose” any rule. You may have a point about reduction of marriageable ages, but who will take on the burden of extra mouths to feed? Earlier, there used to be “joint families”. Now, Liberals don’t even want Nuclear families to survive. Who will take the responsibility? Parents of course! :)

Coming of age (18) will mean nothing until the fellow or the girl can take care of themselves financially. You see a lot of you’re “free youth” drinking and pub-hopping don’t you? Ever wondered how many are under age? Ever wondered how many are actually dependent on “parental income” to support their “choices”?

Of course, under current Liberal “thought control” I cannot stop these “free choices”. But I can put them out the door and let them fend for themselves.

You’re last point about “lack of sex” interests me and I’m doubtful. Have something backing it up?
*********
Vinay – You’re “analysis” of media bias is deeply flawed;

The MSM will oppose ANYBODY if they invade “their” sacred spaces. MSM going hammer and tongs at anti-Pub (of all hues) wallas is case in point.

The MSM will totally side with the Liberal-Secular cabal when Hindu issues are on the plate.

The Mumbai massacre was amply twisted to protect the Liberal-Secular cabal by projecting people’s anger against the Congress as anger against all politicians :) Pretty clever na?

NDTV award for Advani makes me think of our sudden spurts of “beauty queens” in the world fora ;)

Try not to get taken in so easily.
*******
bomma – Better to respond to points I have raised, rather than exit in such fashion.

*********
None of this diatribe is directed against the person of “sane indian”.

“sane indian” – One world nut cases are dime a dozen these days and they are not the ones left standing to clean up the mess they leave behind. Liberalism and its individualistic fanaticism is ruining balance in society. Fellows like you see chaos and celebrate it as color!

You have really not given you’re adherents any kind of lifeline post disaster. Yeah…I guess you’re thinking of “toll-free shrink lines”..”toll-free sex/drug abuse lines” etc etc. No, I’m thinking of the most natural life-line that any human being can grab…and that’s family. You detest the very concept of woman as mother because you immediately link it with “huh? Mother? Then what about sex??” You detest the concept of home maker because “home” is where the “chains” are. Easy divorce (flimsy reasons actually), living devoid of responsibility to none but self, defines you’re new-age culture. You discourage any discussion on rampant consumerism as going against freedom of “commodity” choice. You are hand in glove with renegades who will make a quick buck selling their own mothers. Because that is how much they have devalued cherished and sacred spaces such as love and family.

No generation is without fault…but this must be the starting point of something that sees virtue in disaster.

Kharahara
“If media is fair then, they have to give equal screen space to both. :)”

I was saying media is biased. They magnify anything related to BJP (dare I say, Hindus) and suppress most of kaangress stuff. While the statement by BJP that pub culture will not be tolerated is held up as satanic, more damaging statements and actions from kaangress/muslims goes unreported.

@SIMPLE
You wudnt like your sis to be beaten up but wud you you like your college going teen sis dancing half naked with drunken boyz.
If these teenagers did the right thing, their parents must have defended their acts .
Why nobody is coming forward to register a formal complaint.

Use your own common sense. If you are up against such a band of powerful, politically connected goondas and thugs, I’d like to see how much of a “man” you’ll prove to be. I have a feeling you’re one of those who would quietly drive past after seeing a politician’s son involved in a hit-and-run.

Wonder how people can post such holier-than-thou stuff without attempting to think for a moment.

Vinay
I wanted to say the same.. Is Valale so naive to ask why no one’s coming forward to complain ?
All those who consider supporting rascals like Rama Sene (Hate to drag Lord Rama’s name …..), please understand that tomorrow the very rascals you are supporting will turn more fanatic. Then your womenfolk will not be safe.

To all Liberals/Individualists – You’re abuse of “Rama Sene” or similar such outfit, is to say the very least, misplaced.

There are two issues –

1. Law & Order – You guys seem to be placing all of you’re eggs in this basket. This is no insurance against a “Rama Sene” phenomenon.

2. Deeper Societal Concerns – Addressing these will make sure there will not be a “Rama Sene” phenomenon.

In “you’re” scheme of things, there is a complete embrace of the Police machinery to the complete exclusion of more natural checks and balances that our society nurtures.

In our society, the Police have always been secondary to the primary societal check. This is a glaring difference between the manner our cities are “developing” and the way the rest of our country is moving. Unsurprisingly, you will find the “law & order” machinery is in less of a sway in the latter.

In short, the weaker our Society becomes, more our reliance on the Police. I invite you to cross-check this fact and tell me if I am wrong.

Our society is NOT individualistic. The cry…”I will do what I want to..so long as its within the bounds of law!”, sounds ridiculous.

Individuals in our society carry responsibilities on his/her respective backs. An individual, who forsakes responsibilities, is a renegade and will fend for himself/herself before long. That is a fact.

Yes, times change. Pulls and pressures are there. There are also temptations. Hindu society does not forbid anything but excess of anything.
That is the delicate balance that “you’re” renegade Liberal – Individualism threatens to destroy.

“You’re” first fanaticism of the opposite kind does not, nay, refuses to respect this delicate balance.

1. Gay rights to wed and adopt.

2. Rubbishing the “family” and its relationships.

3. Encouraging “single” parenthood.

4. “Child rights” as divorced from parental obligation toward that Child’s future. (That’s what you demand when you speak of unfettered right to vices) and there are “parents” who grant their wards the “right” to vice. No surprises..these are “you’re” Liberal camp followers. “Thank heavens I can get some free time for myself!”

5. Individualism as a right in itself loyal only to the “Constitution” quickly forgetting that the Constitution will wither if Society turns away from it.

This is but a very brief and unsophisticated list, but none that can be denied.

For “you” to abuse “Rama Sena” without recognizing the symptom is useless. The “Senas” can be banned but let me assure you, they will not go away as long as there is some real LIFE left in our Society. The “Senas” are but a very crude devise that our Society has forged to combat “you’re” irresponsible adventurism. The “Muthaliks” are not alone.

I would like to respond to some specific remarks –

Vinay – Rest assured the lone “individualist” cannot muster the courage to confront anybody, least of all well connected goons. It’s an inbuilt flaw in “you’re” design. **This “individual” will file a police complaint and come back home to himself and have cops protect him**

Sandesh – I’m glad you “hate to drag Rama’s name”. You must know Rama was not an “individualist”. If he was, he would have slain his father and step-mother and denied you an opportunity to admire him. Simply put. Not also, for nothing is Rama actually abused by feminists and Liberals for his human suspicion of Sita post her rescue.

Again, what are the “responsibilites” you are speaking of ? Who sets these responsibilities ? Are these “responsibilities” carved on rock that they don’t change ?

“For “you” to abuse “Rama Sena” without recognizing the symptom is useless.”

What are these “symptoms” you are referring to ?

Palahalli, I hope you are not justifying the deeds of RS. Suppose a few of my friends decide that women should not venture out of the house from, say, 9-10pm on sunday night. And hit/slap any women who does claiming that this was due to their irresponsible adventurism. Would you agree with me and my friends ?

Sounds silly right ? It is silly because,
No one gives me any rights to determine what is acceptable or what is not. Even if I have a handful of supporters.

Similar is the case of a group of youngsters drinking in a pub. You see, they were doing what they considered right (they too had a sizable number of people with them). So, how is their actions irresponsible while the RS goon’s not ? Who sets the benchmark ?

Regarding gay rights, rubbishing family, single parent… these are just a distorted and one-sided view of yours about us liberals. I whole heartedly support gay marraige, single parenting and nuclear families. Des that make me any lesser/greater being than you ?

That’s precisely who the RS are… well connected goons. If we are ascribing any bigger role to them than what they are, we are living in denial. Please. They are least bothered about “culture”, “tradition” and “responsibilities”.

Supporting the Rama Sene’s “act” or not is no longer the issue. I say this because Liberals have taken it upon themselves to use this “act” as a ram-rod to drive legitimacy for their destructive agenda of “Individualism”.

I do not support the Rama Sene’s “act”, but when I look at the bigger Liberal agenda, I view the “act” less sternly and in fact, sympathize with their aims. Too harsh? Sure…but then you are forcing me into taking this stance.

I do not understand why “Responsibilities” confuse you so much? I don’t see such confusion when you speak of asserting “Rights”.

Let me simplify it for you; An sense of Owning or Lack thereof of “Responsibility” arises out of an exercise of “Rights”. So, my “Right” to come home drunk everyday, is curtailed by my “Responsibility” to my family and it’s well-being. I cannot make it simpler.

And yes, “Responsibilities” do change, they GROW. You will observe that ‘Rights” do too. They DIMINISH.

A Human Being is ALWAYS expected to be “Responsible” to his or her environment. This can only grow and that’s what saves us as a People and retains us within a healthy Society.

“Suppose a few of my friends decide that women should not venture out of the house from, say, 9-10pm on Sunday night. And hit/slap any women who does claiming that this was due to their irresponsible adventurism. Would you agree with me and my friends ?”

– You’re not being very clear. I suppose you laid down that rule because of a condition that is beyond you’re control. That “condition” could be an unsafe environment outside, on that Sunday night. Inspite of such an unsafe “condition” which is also beyond you’re control, if you’re known female friends venture outside, I leave it to you to allow them their “Right” to invite trouble or exercise you’re “Responsibility” toward ensuring their safety.

Shortly, how prepared are you to be able to protect them? If you cannot protect them, how dare you let them get in trouble? Now, can they protect themselves? That’s a different ball game that we all play.

“Regarding gay rights, rubbishing family, single parent… these are just a distorted and one-sided view of yours about us liberals. I whole heartedly support gay marriage, single parenting and nuclear families. Des that make me any lesser/greater being than you ?”

– I don’t understand where I “distort” and am “one-sided” when you seem to support such abnormal behavior?

Again, how can you support ANY “family” when you support gay marraiges and single parenting? I hope I’m getting through to you here. It’s not making sense.

You’re being a “lesser or greater” Being than me, to me, is less of a concern than the fact that you’re “thinking” is a recipe for disaster as far as our Society is concerned.

You say; “They are least bothered about “culture”, “tradition” and “responsibilities”.”

– I ask, “Are you more bothered Sandesh? Are you, really?”

To me it’s easier to contain the “Rama Senes” than to stem the Liberal rot that’s set in. But, nothing’s impossible.

On a lighter note;

The scene is right after the Soviet “Revolution” and Lenin is being chauffeured on the main road on Moscow’s outskirts.

Quite suddenly, the driver notices this olde’ woman walking on her way, bang in the middle of the road!

He honks and honks and shouts out! But to no avail! The woman does not even turn around :(

An exasperated looking Lenin….observes the thoroughly harassed driver’s predicament and gets out of the automobile.

He walks up to the olde’ woman and demands..”Olde’ woman! Who are you? And why are you walking in the middle of the street??! Don’t you hear the poor man honking??”

The olde’ woman looks Lenin straight in the eye and retorts, “How dare you question me?! I am a Soviet citizen and I have the RIGHT to walk as I please! Don’t you know?? We are free now!”

Now looking helpless and puzzled…Lenin unthinkingly asks…”Huh?…who gave you this RIGHT to walk anywhere?”

The lady…now confirmed in the belief that she is being confronted by a complete idiot…smiles and lets out…”Vladimir Lenin”.

Much relieved, strong Lenin smiles…gently lifts her up and places her on the sidewalk…he responds…”I am Vladimir Illyich Lenin”.

So Sandesh, there will always be someone who will lift us off the main street and place us on the safe-walk…if we confuse RIGHTS and ignore RESPONSIBILITIES.

Hindu society allows for Hindus to self-regulate. But when Liberal folks start to take advantage of such an allowance…

Re: “In our society, the Police have always been secondary to the primary societal check. This is a glaring difference between the manner our cities are “developing” and the way the rest of our country is moving. Unsurprisingly, you will find the “law & order” machinery is in less of a sway in the latter.”

What in the heavens is a “societal check”? Who imposes this glorious check? You? What does it mean for the law-and-order to be “secondary” to the “societal check”? If there’s a crime in progress do I call my village panchayat to get theit opinion on what needs to be done? No. I call the police. I rely on the police to come, to stop the crime, to collect evidence if the crime has been perpetrated, and to pursue those who have broken the law. I do not rely on my neighbors or the local chaiwala.

How on earth did you draw up this conclusion – “In short, the weaker our Society becomes, more our reliance on the Police. I invite you to cross-check this fact and tell me if I am wrong.”? What did you base this conclusion on? The whole world relies on a functioning police to protect their life and liberty. How and why exactly are we so exceptional? A group of people acting however they choose have no boundaries, no limits and they can infringe, trample and destroy my rights and property. Witness these mob riots where people’s hard earned belongings – not to mention precious civic infrastructure – are destroyed by a deranged bunch of goons from your “society”.

Muthalik and his band cannot act as if they are the law makers of this country.
Muthalik said on CNN IBN Face the Nation programme that he is not against love but why should it be expressed only on one day?
Does he not know that we celebrate Children’s day, Mother’s day, Father’s Day, Republic Day, Independence day, etc. etc. on one day each?
He also says that the youth are getting corrupted and spoilt.
I think he’s a confused man and too much importance is being accorded to him.

“What in the heavens is a “societal check”? Who imposes this glorious check? You? What does it mean for the law-and-order to be “secondary” to the “societal check”? If there’s a crime in progress do I call my village panchayat to get theit opinion on what needs to be done? No. I call the police. I rely on the police to come, to stop the crime, to collect evidence if the crime has been perpetrated, and to pursue those who have broken the law. I do not rely on my neighbors or the local chaiwala.”

– And what if you’re not on site? What if you’re working elsewhere…none but some members of you’re family are at home? And too scared to think while goons bang on the front door?

*And you have neighbors close by and a chai wala selling his tea on the sidewalk*

Who would “you” rely on to provide any kind of sustenance?

Even if you’re on-site…I would be surprised if you still wanted to rely on cops when under attack. Where are the cops when you need them Gaurav?

“societal check” – Accepted norms and mores of the Society we live in.

“The whole world relies on a functioning police to protect their life and liberty.” Really? What do you think is the People to Cop ratio in this country? And what do you think should have been the corresponding crime rate? And what is it now?

You speak of the “mob” as if “a small bunch of us” are somehow divorced from this “mob”. I would like you to for a moment, “become” part of that “mob” and understand it’s dynamic.

There are “mobs” during riots…during rock shows…at New Years eve…you can place them anywhere you want.

Of course, it’s very Hindu to drink. It’s just that you don’t get Somarasa any more. And it’s pretty hard for fifth-standard dropouts to find comely courtesans to pour them some. Ergo, the second-best thing to do is stop anyone from having fun.

It’s time someone (preferably a woman) divested Shri Mutalik and his troglodyte army of their gonads.

Please be assured… I am very much a practicing Hindu.. And I am more bothered about culture/tradition. Our tradition/culture places women at an equal (or a bit higher also) level as a men. So, when I see RS goons molesting/harassing a women in public… I am bothered. Really I am.

“I do not support the Rama Sene’s “act”, but when I look at the bigger Liberal agenda,”

Please also be rest assured. Those of us who sincerely are condemning this incident have nothing to do with “liberal” agenda. It is the mentality of RS goons we are criticizing. Of course, there are always those monkeys who for cheap publicity create sound bites… I and most of us are not among them.

“I don’t understand where I “distort” and am “one-sided” when you seem to support such abnormal behavior? ”

The whole talk of mixing the issue of gay marriages, single parenting, etc etc into a topic that is very different from these… and throwing them all into one big agenda.. is certainly distorted. You assume gay marriage, single parenting et al as “abnormal”.. Pray tell me how did you come to this conclusion ? have you talked to gay and single parents for their views before you term them abnormal ?

“A Human Being is ALWAYS expected to be “Responsible” to his or her environment. This can only grow and that’s what saves us as a People and retains us within a healthy Society.”

Agree 100%. Then again, in the big picture a healthy society needs to keep updating itself with changing environment.. when new generations come up they bring in change. You can’t keep referring them to customs/traditions of yore… they may no longer apply. And RS behaviour is in no way healthy nor it contributes to any healthy society.

“Again, how can you support ANY “family” when you support gay marraiges and single parenting? ”

Your concept of “family” may not match with what I have in mind. For ex, I want to adopt babies and stay a single parent….. for some reasons. Am I not allowed to do that just because your idea of family is different from me ?

OK.. my silly situation example did not make much sense…I laid down that rule of 9-10 pm something… just as a random thing.. There is no sense there… As there is no more sense than deciding that girls and boys in a pub is dangerous to our “culture”. See, any one can muster up a few people… by hook or crook.. and try to impose his or her own agenda. Doesn’t it ruin a healthy society ??

Sandesh – I’m happy you liked that anecdote :) I first heard it long years ago while studying for IAS. **he he…didn’t study too hard though ;)

I’m in agreement with most of you’re response too! You’re cool man!

But….I have a small bone to pick :)

“You assume gay marriage, single parenting et al as “abnormal”.. Pray tell me how did you come to this conclusion ? have you talked to gay and single parents for their views before you term them abnormal ?”

– You tell me you want to adopt kids and remain unmarried..”for some reasons”. I can understand that. In fact, anybody who can adopt and raise a child well, should. However, you’re choice is due to “some reasons”. Why would you not want to wed; if it were not for “some reasons”? I hope you understand me.

I also know that there is a veritable small scale Liberal industry that promotes “gay rights” including their “right to wed” and “right to adopt”. Normal folks and society are then emotionally blackmailed and arm twisted into accepting this “fact of life”.

Human society has evolved in a certain way because of the need to perpetuate life. To survive against all odds.

Observe the balance – Simply put.

Man – Physically stronger

Woman – Emotionally stronger

Man – Bread earner

Woman – Child bearer and rearer (sic) of family

This balance has always been tested willingly and I imagine it to be like a tower that sways in strong winds but regains it’s centre of gravity eventually.

I don’t understand…what has so suddenly and drastically changed this need now, for us to think of suicide? Or is what you say, nature’s manner of ensuring a ‘birth-freeze” until such time as we absorb all our orphans? I find this hard to believe. A child needs not just a roof over its head but also a healthy environment. I know there has been such romanticization of “gay rights” to lead “normal” lives that we tend to sweep objections like mine..as “chauvinistic, backward, narrow-minded..” et al.

Or are you also telling me..”BitBidi swami…yeshtu maha gayGalu idDare? Numbers are very small…leave them alone”. (?)

But I tend to see you’re insistence that these fads are indeed “normal” and healthy, as being short-sighted and a recipe for disaster. Modern Liberals are not known for their moderation Sandesh.

what’s with the hatred all of u… all the people who drink smoke and do whatever know exactly what they are doing. it is by choice… who gives anyone else the right to force onto them to drink or not… to go to a pub or not… or even to have sex or not…
at ashoka and all others claiming to be “hindu”
pls… get real… u have just limited knowledge about indian culture heritage… in fact if u were to get into an argument with….even me… (who drinks and smokes and goes to pubs)about indian culture history and heritage… you will lose miserably…. forget that, u will lose miserably even if i talk about hindutva… and i havent even started talking about others who know better than me…
and who the hell is anyone to talk about muslims or christians in india… all of them that i know are people who are proud to be indian… who mix with every other religious group well… who are talented… respect my religion. u guys sound like illiterate assholes who have just come out of their homes for the first time… stop wearing shirts and trousers and start going to office in veshtis and dhotis if u are so proud…tell ur women to stop wearing blouse… under their sarees… thats also a western gift to india… coz they thought indian women were cheap to not wear anything on their breast…. and not even the salwar kameez… thats a dress that the muslim culture gave us….. and stop using the internet.. that is also the gift of the west… i dont know how u guys even think of facing god wen u die… with so much hatred filled inside you…

finish of this western culture… and see which company comes to ur city to give you jobs… hypocrites..

By the way, anyone knows how many of the attacked girls (or their parents at least) lodged complaints with the police after the pub attack?

If they were so much progressive and daring, at least some of them should have proceeded for legal actions, isn’t it?

Deep down inside they know that what they are doing is not correct in terms of existing societal norms (middle and poor class). Just blindly following whats happening in a western society isn’t sufficient to be considered progressive.

In one aspect I support the acts of Rama Sena and such organizations, and in another aspect condemn their acts also.

Societies are subjected to various forces(or influences). Some forces dilute the cutural and moral values upheld by a society, some forces grip them from diluting. I think both these forces are necessary to some extent. Diluting forces that are rational help removing the superstitions and unwanted beliefs from the society, and also provides a tread to connect to other societies at a basic level. But if the diluting forces becomes too large (too much of an influence), it can erode the essential cultural and moral values. In these instances gripping forces become essential, otherwise the identity of societies will be at stake. I would say Shiv sena and Rama sena are like modern warriors of Hindu society. Can you imagine, if not for these sena, whole of India would have been baptised in the name of service to poor. So I do respect the forces created by these senas to balance the Hindu society from eroding.

But where I condemn their Rama senas act in this perticular incident is the way they handled it. I believe they could have created a similar force without mishandling and being so abusive to the women there.