IF by chance Patsy's is using mother dough and keeping the dough at room temps, it may be possible that over the years a wild yeast has set up camp as PFTaylor mentioned. But this is a big IF IMO. Whatever the truth is, there is a Patsy's starter floating around, although it might be more appropriate to rename it the Verasano Starter.

The one I received from another member for testing purposes is definitely not commercial yeast, although at it's peak activity it does have a sweet taste to it. CY, in a leaven at it's peak, smells sweet BUT does not have that same sweet taste. If the leaven is even lightly sweet, it is mostly likely due to the dough break down in the leaven from enzyme activity.

However, the sample that I have, it doesn't have great leavening ability as compared to ischia or my just made grape starter. Toddster, PM me if you want a dry sample of what I have, you'll have to reactivate it.

I have talked to those guys and they claim no mother dough at patsys! They are just doing a very basic one day cold ferment. Jeff was wrong about the live cultures there, but he did capture something nice.

Yeah, well, whatever... I remember all this rigor-moral about Patsys and the controversy if they used anything other than commercial yeast, and blah-blah...

Call the Varasano/Patsys starter what you want, I do know this much: my friends and family still ask (3 years later) for the "old" great pizza I use to make—the kinda sweet Italian tasting pizza. Mmmmm... Well, I still have the 850F stone, still have the Caputo flour... But I lost that Patsys culture when moving across California, and my Neo pizza has never been the same... And like Varasano, I always combined it with CY.... I also always got the best results with this culture on a hot, hot stone—850F and up...

In the "reverse engineering Patsy's" thread, it was pretty much obvious that the conclusion was Patsy's did NOT use a sourdough culture. Myth is always more interesting then reality.

David, while Patsy's doesn't employ a starter to make their dough, whatever culture that is passed around as the Patsy's starter is indeed a real starter. No myth about it whatsoever. No doubt it came from the starter Verasano started from Patsy's dough. Whether it picked up some wild yeast strain somewhere who knows.

So Patsy's using a starter is a myth, yes. The Verasano starter, is not a myth. It is alive and well...and spreading.

Toddster, nice looking pie. In a different thread, there is a hotly debated controversy of whether a starter can retain it's unique characteristics over the years or if the starter will just be taken over by local yeast or change in different geographical locations. I find it interesting that both you and I had similar experiences with this Patsy's stater despite having used it years apart. I just got it recently and we are both describing a starter, that at it's peak of actvity, has a sweetness to it and mediocre leaveing strength. Hmmm, interesting indeed.

Toddster, nice looking pie. In a different thread, there is a hotly debated controversy of whether a starter can retain it's unique characteristics over the years or if the starter will just be taken over by local yeast or change in different geographical locations. I find it interesting that both you and I had similar experiences with this Patsy's stater despite having used it years apart. I just got it recently and we are both describing a starter, that at it's peak of actvity, has a sweetness to it and mediocre leaveing strength. Hmmm, interesting indeed.

Yes, I agree this is very interesting particularly in light of the other discussion (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18283.0.html). I'd say it suggests that a) you can capture a starter from the air (the possibility that the sourdough culture was established by something that Varasano did to it should also be noted), 2) a wild sourdough culture can take over a bakers yeast culture (but will not always [if the takeover of the culture is coming from Patsy's air], the dough I bought from patsy's didn't seem to have any sourdough qualities), and 3) that sourdough culture can resist takeover from other cultures (yours sounds similar to Todd's and differend from other popular cultures).

CL

Logged

"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."Craig's Neapolitan Garage

When Varasano's crust is on, it's on. It's inspiring. Almost impossible to beat. It's got this fruity note. No hint of sourness. And then the characteristics as far as chew and crisp? Dead on just like in your imagination.

Even when his crust is off it's good. But when it's on, it's a thing of beauty.

Yes, I agree this is very interesting particularly in light of the other discussion (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18283.0.html). I'd say it suggests that a) you can capture a starter from the air (the possibility that the sourdough culture was established by something that Varasano did to it should also be noted), 2) a wild sourdough culture can take over a bakers yeast culture (but will not always [if the takeover of the culture is coming from Patsy's air], the dough I bought from patsy's didn't seem to have any sourdough qualities), and 3) that sourdough culture can resist takeover from other cultures (yours sounds similar to Todd's and differend from other popular cultures).

CL

The most likely source of microflora (yeasts and lactobacillis) is the flour itself....

On the Varasano acid dough , if I remember correctly, it was not capable of leavening properly by itself and therefore needed commercial yeast. This suggested that it was just that, an acid dough, with probably a strong lactobacilli's like microflora and not so strong yeast type microflora. If going around somewhere it has picked up a stronger strain of yeast by one of the flour used, them it may have further developed. Overall, if it does a job and give a nice aroma, then it may be good enough to use, just do not over romanticize that whole thing.

Lost my Varasano starter years ago, moving soon away from my WFO. Gonna need every bit of flavor I can get in a electric. Who's got my back on a rebuild of that starter? It is damn good, and I for one never used yeast with it. no problems with spring at all, just used room temp fermentation. Anyone? Millhouse? -Marc