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Re: Democrats threaten violence on Michigan House floor

Originally Posted by Sig

Actually, it was your implication that EACH COULD be custom-tailored. Did you forget? I am simply recognizing that your implication is quite ridiculous and fantastical.

Yes, I did and you have failed to present how it is in fact ridiculous or fantastical when it is quite common...no not individually custom tailored but in fact employment agreements (contracts if you will) for like work is similar enough that 'tailor fitting' is quite easy. Further in non-union AND union workplaces individual workers are addressed individually AND collectively. Consider across the board COLA's and/or individual raises for progress/attendance/etc. Would you agree that these are quite common in both workplaces? If not how are these benefit adjustments commonly made?

Do us both a favor: Stop typing and start reading, slowly this time.

Ok, so you want to quit this discussion?...fine as you have not have made any substantive point except something similar ‘no they can’t’ or ‘that’s impossible’…quit replying then

"The fact that we are here today to debate raising America's debt limit is a sign of leadership failure" - 2006 Senator Obama...leadership failure indeed!

Re: Democrats threaten violence on Michigan House floor

Originally Posted by Dickieboy

Yes, I did and you have failed to present how it is in fact ridiculous or fantastical when it is quite common...

So, now you are back to suggesting that such custom-tailored contracts are possible; and, what is worse, you are back to suggesting that such practice is "quite common." Obviously, you have no idea what you are talking about since you keep reversing yourself, over and over and over again.

Ok, so you want to quit this discussion?...fine as you have not have made any substantive point except something similar ‘no they can’t’ or ‘that’s impossible’…quit replying then

I will continue this discussion only if it is taken to the basement because I will no doubt receive an infraction for what I have left to say to you.

BTW: Have you got a grip on the Wagner Act yet? Here is some advice: Never mind concerning yourself with RTW (Right to Work). Your real concern should be RIF (Reading is Fundamental).

It's like you're dreaming of Gorgonzola when it's clearly Brie time, baby. Step into my office.

Re: Democrats threaten violence on Michigan House floor

But ... but ... but ... then all the liberals will be cut out of the discussions and the reasonable folks won't talk to them.

That's odd,I was thinking that the opposite was/is true.

The haggardness of poverty is everywhere seen contrasted with the sleekness of wealth, the exhorted labor of some compensating for the idleness of others, wretched hovels by the side of stately colonnades, the rags of indigence blended with the ensigns of opulence; in a word, the most useless profusion in the midst of the most urgent wants.Jean-Baptiste Say

Re: Democrats threaten violence on Michigan House floor

No but you can go work for the Hyundai plant in Georgia.. why the hell would you want to move to Michigan.

And yes, if you were in management position you could go work for a GM plant..

And that is the absurdity of the union claim. I grew up in Lansing, and had many, many friends that worked for GM. They are what is called a 'closed shop' which means that if you get hired into GM you have NO choice but to join the union, or don't take the job. How is that fairness? I would think if the union is so great they wouldn't need such coercive measures. So, why not open it up to choice....

Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Re: Democrats threaten violence on Michigan House floor

Originally Posted by Sig

So, now you are back to suggesting that such custom-tailored contracts are possible; and, what is worse, you are back to suggesting that such practice is "quite common." Obviously, you have no idea what you are talking about since you keep reversing yourself, over and over and over again.

No, I have never suggested that they were not impossible. It was you who has repeatedly stated my proposal was ‘impossible’ all the way to 'fantasyland'. I have not reversed myself yet, which is your duty to attempt. It was my (and has been) assertion that individuals can (and commonly do) negotiate their individual employment compensation package. This should be overly obvious as currently the union maintains merely +/-7% of the total workforce. How do you suppose the employment compensation package for the other +/-93% are secured? Further it was my assertion that an individual maintaining employment in a union shop can secure a better employment compensation package than the union does (CAN not DOES or WILL). You have stated that this would be impossible and impractical but the current arrangement in +/-93% of the workforce proves otherwise…where am I wrong?

"The fact that we are here today to debate raising America's debt limit is a sign of leadership failure" - 2006 Senator Obama...leadership failure indeed!

Re: Democrats threaten violence on Michigan House floor

Hey Union supporters, seems the UAW is already in the process of selling you down the river....

In most of his 32-year career as a Michigan autoworker and union leader, Frank Hammer never imagined the United Auto Workers agreeing to major concessions when it came to core principles: equal pay for equal work, job security and generous pensions.

But an erosion of those key values has arrived and at a rapid pace over the past several years: Enter a two-tiered salary system. Beginning in 2007, the UAW has drafted contracts with the Detroit Three automakers aimed at rebuilding a struggling American auto industry and preventing thousands of American jobs from moving overseas. One of the key changes in the contracts allowed for a two-tiered salary system, letting entry-level workers earn far less than traditional workers while also forgoing pensions and more generous health plans.

As a result, roughly 13 percent of General Motors Co., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler Group hourly workers, or about 15,000 employees, are now in those lower-paid positions, shows a recent study from the Center for Automotive Research in Ann Arbor, Michigan.

Before the UAW agreed to the new salary structure, the average worker cost GM about $79 per hour in wages and benefits. Today, that figure is down to $58, largely because of the growing number of entry-level positions coming into the system, says Kristin Dziczek, a director at the Center for Automotive Research. Typical entry -level workers earn about $19 per hour, with workers in warehousing and distribution positions making less than $15 per hour, she says.

The new salary structure has taken a toll on all autoworkers, undermining the ability of workers to live a decent wage and quality of life, says Hammer, who retired in 2006 and is now a leader of The Autoworker Caravan, a Michigan-based advocacy group formed in 2008 for unionized autoworkers.

"The morale of workers in the plants is not at all what it used to be," Hammer says. "You face situations where a mother and son can be working on two different sides of the assembly line doing the same job, but one is working at half the wage of the other."

But Dziczek says many new autoworkers are happy to take the jobs, even at drastically lower salaries, because the depressed job market offers them few other opportunities.

"Traditional workers really feel these [new] people have gotten a raw deal," she says, "but entry-level workers are looking at it differently, figuring, 'If I stick around long enough, I'll get the wage you got.' They understand the bargain."

GM spokesman Bill Grotz says the contract negotiated in 2007 has resulted in about 9 percent of the automaker's current workforce being entry level, and it's working well. "Overall, it was a pretty innovative labor agreement. ... It helped us stay competitive, open more plants and provide more opportunities for more jobs," he says.

Re: Democrats threaten violence on Michigan House floor

Originally Posted by j-mac

And that is the absurdity of the union claim. I grew up in Lansing, and had many, many friends that worked for GM. They are what is called a 'closed shop' which means that if you get hired into GM you have NO choice but to join the union, or don't take the job. How is that fairness? I would think if the union is so great they wouldn't need such coercive measures. So, why not open it up to choice....

With the considerably violent and unjustly repressive opposition which organized labor endured from the beginning of the labor movement in the mid 19th century and far into the 20th century, continuing to this very day in the second decade of the 21st century (though in much more politically sophisticated form), it should be of no surprise to see union members exert pressure upon their co-workers to sign up. Their very livelihoods depend upon maintaining a collective front in order to maintain a union wage.

It's like you're dreaming of Gorgonzola when it's clearly Brie time, baby. Step into my office.

Re: Democrats threaten violence on Michigan House floor

Originally Posted by j-mac

Hey Union supporters, seems the UAW is already in the process of selling you down the river....

So whats your point?From your link.

<"Traditional workers really feel these [new] people have gotten a raw deal," she says, "but entry-level workers are looking at it differently, figuring, 'If I stick around long enough, I'll get the wage you got.' They understand the bargain.">

<"These are still good jobs. They still pay benefits," Schwartz says. "The health care is extremely good. ... We're talking about an industry that's competing very hard in a global marketplace, where they tend to have a labor-cost advantage. This is one way of trying to overcome it without damaging anybody who's already there.">

When the economy kicks in (when the obstructionism in the house gets kicked to the side of the road) they will get brought back up to scale.Why the hatred for working folk trying to help bring work and wages back to the home county?

The haggardness of poverty is everywhere seen contrasted with the sleekness of wealth, the exhorted labor of some compensating for the idleness of others, wretched hovels by the side of stately colonnades, the rags of indigence blended with the ensigns of opulence; in a word, the most useless profusion in the midst of the most urgent wants.Jean-Baptiste Say