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Expanding the "right to lie"

The GOP has quietly swept a bill through committee without any actual input from the public. It's called the "Transparent Airfare Act of 2014", and it's touted as lowering ticket prices so more people will fly.

But this is brought to you by the same variety of people who fought in court to have the "right to lie", and that's what it's actually about: The airlines want to be able to tell you the price for the ticket before all the various taxes and fees are added -- then when you decide to buy one, the real total is what you pay:

...would the cost of your ticket actually go down with the law? Nope.

Instead, the proposed law would remove government consumer protections by allowing an airline to initially claim that its tickets cost less than they actually do. Press the "buy" button online for the deceptively low airfare, and all taxes and mandatory fees would be added to your bill.

So it comes down to a right to lie: they want the special privilege, unlike any other federally regulated business (think gas prices), to post a "price" that is less than you'd be paying, but then stick you with the whole sum.

The bill does have some Democrats on the sponsors list. But it's probably too much to hope they'll push some common sense and require airlines to list not just their price, but the breakdown, so customers will be able to tell what they're paying and to whom.

"Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

Re: Expanding the "right to lie"

Originally Posted by Kulindahr

The GOP has quietly swept a bill through committee without any actual input from the public. It's called the "Transparent Airfare Act of 2014", and it's touted as lowering ticket prices so more people will fly.

But this is brought to you by the same variety of people who fought in court to have the "right to lie", and that's what it's actually about: The airlines want to be able to tell you the price for the ticket before all the various taxes and fees are added -- then when you decide to buy one, the real total is what you pay:

Their argument?:

So it comes down to a right to lie: they want the special privilege, unlike any other federally regulated business (think gas prices), to post a "price" that is less than you'd be paying, but then stick you with the whole sum.

The bill does have some Democrats on the sponsors list. But it's probably too much to hope they'll push some common sense and require airlines to list not just their price, but the breakdown, so customers will be able to tell what they're paying and to whom.

Re: Expanding the "right to lie"

Are they kidding? If a hundred bucks more was added to my purchase of anything after I hit purchase, I'd tell my credit card to reject it every single time. This is like fraud.

Of course it's like fraud.

It also made my decision for me in a local race -- one of our congresscritters is sponsoring this travesty.

"Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

Re: Expanding the "right to lie"

Originally Posted by DreamTeam

Erm...wait a minute. I wasn't being sarcastic. Are you telling me that in the states you don't know what you're actually paying in total UNTIL you get charged??

Except for Washington DC, the USA does not have a VAT, but most places do have a sales tax. The sales tax is not included on the price tag, but its not completely fair to call that fraud since a sales tax rate is low and easily calcuatable.

Re: Expanding the "right to lie"

Originally Posted by DreamTeam

And in grocery stores?

You may not know about tax amounts and similar until you see the total, but no, it is not usual for Americans to not know the amount something costs prior to committing to buy --- except with healthcare.

Re: Expanding the "right to lie"

Grocery stores charge sales tax at the rate the state allows, you can calculate that yourself if you really want to. They don't charge you a shopping cart fee, and a grocery weight fee, or a cashier fee, etc.

Re: Expanding the "right to lie"

Originally Posted by DreamTeam

Jesus....surely not everyone is so good with maths that its fair to omit sum totals on purchases. We have everything included on the product price over here, which is just as well, smokers would be buying a 20pack of fags for £2.50 and then getting charged £7.00 at the till otherwise!

That's exactly right with cigarettes. We don't like income taxes in Texas, there isn't one, so everything else gets taxed and we call that tax freedom.

Also if you can't do the math, that's your own fault. We don't like to be coddled either. (grin)

It's actually really regressive to proceed in this fashion and it hurts the people at the bottom the most.

Re: Expanding the "right to lie"

Originally Posted by DreamTeam

Jesus....surely not everyone is so good with maths that its fair to omit sum totals on purchases. We have everything included on the product price over here, which is just as well, smokers would be buying a 20pack of fags for £2.50 and then getting charged £7.00 at the till otherwise!

Yeah as Rolyo said, for the great majority of items it's simply whether they're taxable or non-taxable. Simple food items are generally not taxed at all in grocery stores. The rest for the most part just fall under the flat sales tax established by that city/state/county. It will generally be the same just about anywhere you shop depending on where you live. There may be additional surcharges on liquor/tobacco depending on location, but they are nowhere near as severe in the U.S. as in Canada or the UK, where you guys often charge more in tax than the cost of the cigarettes.

Re: Expanding the "right to lie"

Originally Posted by TX-Beau

Grocery stores charge sales tax at the rate the state allows, you can calculate that yourself if you really want to. They don't charge you a shopping cart fee, and a grocery weight fee, or a cashier fee, etc.

It varies from state-to-state in what is taxable and what isn't. You pretty much have to look up each state and what they do. In MA, it is against the law to tax "edible" groceries. So that deli meat is not taxed but that box of tissues is. In MA also, clothes are not taxed either up to $175/item and then the amount over that is taxed at the sales tax rate as a "luxury tax" .

Yes, by most states' laws, they have to disclose the cost and line out the fees before you hit 'accept' on the payment.

Re: Expanding the "right to lie"

Originally Posted by DreamTeam

Erm...wait a minute. I wasn't being sarcastic. Are you telling me that in the states you don't know what you're actually paying in total UNTIL you get charged??

If this bill becomes law, that will be the case -- the airlines will just tell you what their price is, and it will be up to you to figure out what the fees and taxes are... or just decide to pay, and then they'll charge you the whole thing.

"Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

Re: Expanding the "right to lie"

Not sure where you book your tickets TX, but that is not correct in my case.

Every travel site I have used over the last few years, Expedia, Orbitz, etc. tells me exactly the price I'm paying for the ticket, including taxes.

That's just what the airlines want to change. You'd have to make a special request to find out the actual price.

And if Obama succeeds with his plan to hand the internet over to corporations, they'll charge you for the privilege.

"Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

Re: Expanding the "right to lie"

Originally Posted by Kulindahr

The GOP has quietly swept a bill through committee without any actual input from the public. It's called the "Transparent Airfare Act of 2014", and it's touted as lowering ticket prices so more people will fly.

Prices wont actually change, they'll just show the price for the actual ticket up front. When you place the ticket in your "shopping cart" and are ready to purchase the taxes and fees will be shown, You'll still pay full price, but will now be able to see how much of that price is actually government fees. And you can still choose not to purchase that ticket. You aren't being charged anything extra, or without your consent. You're just being shown a more complete breakdown of how much of the total price goes to the government. Personally I like that better than the assumption that it all goes to the airline.

Re: Expanding the "right to lie"

Originally Posted by Willie Boy

Prices wont actually change, they'll just show the price for the actual ticket up front. When you place the ticket in your "shopping cart" and are ready to purchase the taxes and fees will be shown, You'll still pay full price, but will now be able to see how much of that price is actually government fees. And you can still choose not to purchase that ticket. You aren't being charged anything extra, or without your consent. You're just being shown a more complete breakdown of how much of the total price goes to the government. Personally I like that better than the assumption that it all goes to the airline.

It's still deceptive -- they'll be advertising just the portion of the price that goes to the airline, not the actual price. If you want transparency, this isn't it; transparency would start with the actual price you're going to pay, and have a breakdown underneath.

"Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

Re: Expanding the "right to lie"

Originally Posted by Kulindahr

It's still deceptive -- they'll be advertising just the portion of the price that goes to the airline, not the actual price. If you want transparency, this isn't it; transparency would start with the actual price you're going to pay, and have a breakdown underneath.

Just the sam as basically ANY and EVERY store that does not add the gov't taxes and fees to the price prior to advertising. It would be like shopping online and having the taxes and shipping fees already added before you ever see the price. You have no clue whatsoever what you are actually paying for the item(s), what is going to the government and what you are being charged for shipping. That's how its been with airline tickets. Now they are changing it so you see the actual breakdown in the total price. You finally get to see just what you are paying for your airline ticket, as well as what the government adds for the "right to fly".

You may prefer NOT TO KNOW how deep the government is dipping into the till, but I would rather know. It used to be that with fuel prices the gas stations were required to show a breakdown as to how much was government fees and such, but I haven't seen anything like that in a while.

Re: Expanding the "right to lie"

Originally Posted by Willie Boy

Just the sam as basically ANY and EVERY store that does not add the gov't taxes and fees to the price prior to advertising. It would be like shopping online and having the taxes and shipping fees already added before you ever see the price. You have no clue whatsoever what you are actually paying for the item(s), what is going to the government and what you are being charged for shipping. That's how its been with airline tickets. Now they are changing it so you see the actual breakdown in the total price. You finally get to see just what you are paying for your airline ticket, as well as what the government adds for the "right to fly".

You may prefer NOT TO KNOW how deep the government is dipping into the till, but I would rather know. It used to be that with fuel prices the gas stations were required to show a breakdown as to how much was government fees and such, but I haven't seen anything like that in a while.

It's still deceptive. They're trying to hook people on the price before they see the real price. They should have to show the actual price, and then a breakdown. In the arguments fr the bill, the industry representatives basically admitted they're trying to put one over on consumers-- that's what the bill is for.

"Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

Re: Expanding the "right to lie"

Originally Posted by Kulindahr

It's still deceptive. They're trying to hook people on the price before they see the real price. They should have to show the actual price, and then a breakdown. In the arguments fr the bill, the industry representatives basically admitted they're trying to put one over on consumers-- that's what the bill is for.

There is nothing deceptive about it. They are showing exactly where the money goes, and why. You just confuse yourself into believing it is deceptive because the price for the ticket no longer includes the government fees that you still need to pay. It used to be deceptive in that they collected those fees WITHOUT telling you they were collecting them, they hid them in the total cost. They clear up that deception by showing the actual price for the ticket first, then showing the fees that are charged. You are still PAYING THE SAME PRICE, only now you see EXACTLY WHERE IT GOES. What is so deceptive about getting MORE DETAIL in the actual breakdown in fees?

Re: Expanding the "right to lie"

Originally Posted by Willie Boy

There is nothing deceptive about it. They are showing exactly where the money goes, and why. You just confuse yourself into believing it is deceptive because the price for the ticket no longer includes the government fees that you still need to pay. It used to be deceptive in that they collected those fees WITHOUT telling you they were collecting them, they hid them in the total cost. They clear up that deception by showing the actual price for the ticket first, then showing the fees that are charged. You are still PAYING THE SAME PRICE, only now you see EXACTLY WHERE IT GOES. What is so deceptive about getting MORE DETAIL in the actual breakdown in fees?

The companies aren't going to be advertising the full price. And their arguments in favor of this all depend on their hooking people with an apparently lower price -- in other words, the want the right to sucker people. The whole intent is to deceive!

To avoid deception, they should have required the price to be reported as it is now, and then showing the breakdown.

"Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

Re: Expanding the "right to lie"

Originally Posted by Kulindahr

The companies aren't going to be advertising the full price. And their arguments in favor of this all depend on their hooking people with an apparently lower price -- in other words, the want the right to sucker people. The whole intent is to deceive!

In a manner of speaking...... Of course they want to be able to show a lower price, that's just business 101. They want to show the lowest available price. The deception is that all this time the extra government fees have been pre-added to the actual price of the ticket, making you believe the final cost was an actual "total price" for the ticket itself instead of ticket plus mandatory government fees. The airline companies should never have had to claim that excess as part of the ticket price any more than Target should have to include tax as part of an item's price, or car companies should have to include taxes and government fees as part of the price of a vehicle. Once you've decided to buy all the fees are added to the price of the vehicle and you are given the total cost, why should the fees for airfare be any different just because you are used to having them already included with the price of the ticket?

Re: Expanding the "right to lie"

Originally Posted by Willie Boy

In a manner of speaking...... Of course they want to be able to show a lower price, that's just business 101. They want to show the lowest available price. The deception is that all this time the extra government fees have been pre-added to the actual price of the ticket, making you believe the final cost was an actual "total price" for the ticket itself instead of ticket plus mandatory government fees. The airline companies should never have had to claim that excess as part of the ticket price any more than Target should have to include tax as part of an item's price, or car companies should have to include taxes and government fees as part of the price of a vehicle. Once you've decided to buy all the fees are added to the price of the vehicle and you are given the total cost, why should the fees for airfare be any different just because you are used to having them already included with the price of the ticket?

Ever read all the fine print on a ticket? It tells you that chunks are going for government fees

"Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

Re: Expanding the "right to lie"

Ever read all the fine print on a ticket? It tells you that chunks are going for government fees

But how many people actually read that? And does it also give the actual breakdown, or just suggest an undisclosed amount?

In either case this new system removes the need for the fine print by fully disclosing all of it up front. Would you rather have the unread, ambiguous fine print of full disclosure from the start? I'll take the full disclosure, thank you very much. I am intelligent enough to understand that just because the beginning price is lower I shouldn't expect a lower price at checkout because the fees need to be added prior to purchase.

It isn't confusing....... As long as you look at the whole picture instead of focusing on the advertised "ticket price".

Re: Expanding the "right to lie"

Originally Posted by Willie Boy

But how many people actually read that? And does it also give the actual breakdown, or just suggest an undisclosed amount?

In either case this new system removes the need for the fine print by fully disclosing all of it up front. Would you rather have the unread, ambiguous fine print of full disclosure from the start? I'll take the full disclosure, thank you very much. I am intelligent enough to understand that just because the beginning price is lower I shouldn't expect a lower price at checkout because the fees need to be added prior to purchase.

It isn't confusing....... As long as you look at the whole picture instead of focusing on the advertised "ticket price".

But it doesn't disclose it all up front -- which is why the airlines are pushing this. "Up front" is the advertised ticket price.

"Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

Re: Expanding the "right to lie"

Originally Posted by Kulindahr

But it doesn't disclose it all up front -- which is why the airlines are pushing this. "Up front" is the advertised ticket price.

Yes. And that is exactly what it is..... The TICKET price. All the other crap is just that, crap added on by government fees and taxes. It never was part of the actual ticket price, you only thought it was because that is how it was advertised. Now they've cleared that up and you are able to see how much the actual ticket costs as opposed to the total with government fees added. You aren't charged any "hidden fees" like you were before. Are you really this desirous of having government fees charged in secret? Because that is what you are trying to advocate.

Re: Expanding the "right to lie"

Originally Posted by Willie Boy

Yes. And that is exactly what it is..... The TICKET price. All the other crap is just that, crap added on by government fees and taxes. It never was part of the actual ticket price, you only thought it was because that is how it was advertised. Now they've cleared that up and you are able to see how much the actual ticket costs as opposed to the total with government fees added. You aren't charged any "hidden fees" like you were before. Are you really this desirous of having government fees charged in secret? Because that is what you are trying to advocate.

If you think that last line is true, you haven't been paying attention.

You definitely aren't paying attention to the industry's motivation here: they want to be able to sucker people with claims of low cost flights when they are anything but. That's why they're supporting this law -- and that alone makes it a bad one.

They should have to be honest and advertise the full price you'll pay, not leave it to be discovered later -- especially not after you've clicked on "purchase", which is how the one Congressional person described how it will work.

"Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

Re: Expanding the "right to lie"

You definitely aren't paying attention to the industry's motivation here: they want to be able to sucker people with claims of low cost flights when they are anything but.

So you speak for the industry now? Their motivation is simply the motivation of any industry or business: to offer the best price. And being able to show the price of the ticket without the added government fees IS beneficial, but it is not motivated out of deceit.

They should have to be honest and advertise the full price you'll pay, not leave it to be discovered later -- especially not after you've clicked on "purchase", which is how the one Congressional person described how it will work.

What was described is that the price of the ticket is shown when you are browsing. Once you decide to buy taxes and government fees are added, just like in any other industry. Shop anywhere else online and you are shown the price of the merchandise. Once you choose to purchase the website rings it up and the proper fees are added. Fees such as taxes, any government fees, shipping charges, etc... Or if you shop in-store you end up with the same basic thing (less the shipping charges). The price of the item is just that, ITS price. As you finalize the transaction the sundry fees are added to the final cost. You are just confused because the airline industry used to be required to do things backwards. They were forced to show you the final cost upfront, including what the government charges you. Now they are allowed to show you what the ACTUAL PRICE for the ticket is. Yes they still add the government fees and you still pay the same final price. The new system does not do away with any of those government fees, just makes them more visible. But you aren't actually being charged extra for the ticket.

Re: Expanding the "right to lie"

A great many of those fees are being added by the airline itself in order to hide them from the cost, baggage check fees as one example.

Thanks -- I lost track of that along the way. So they really are aiming for the right to lie.

"Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "