You submit your recordings often, yet rarely have you taken time to listen and comment on other members’ recordings. Do you think you are too good for that? Or that you have no time?

Oh wait, I’m wrong about that. You have commented on another member’s recording, but it was on Youtube where you said insulting, rude, and mean comments on a recording that really is very good and did not deserve anywhere near the kind of reaction from you. So… does that make you feel like a big shot? Do you feel like a man when you say bad and cruel things to other musicians who are trying their hardest to make the best music that they can? Is it fun to hurt someone that way, instead of offering any helpful advice?

Well, let me tell you some things. You are a good pianist, but you are nothing special. There are hundreds of good pianists around today. And you certainly are not a man, because you have no balls! Very cowardly of you to toss insulting remarks to one of our best members on his/her Youtube channel, yet you say and act nothing like that here on PS. And that’s because you know that we here don’t put up with punks like you.

Your behavior sickens me and therefore I will not listen to any of your music or put up your files. One of the other admins may do so, but I have better things to do with my time, like giving my attention to better behaved and deserving members.

_________________"Simplicity is the highest goal, achievable when you have overcome all difficulties." ~ Frederic Chopin

Hello thanks for this kind comment. I really appreciate that somebody can be so polite and nice person.
Ok. The truth is that I rarely comment recordings of others pianists. I know it but sometimes it's really hard to say something. Why I post so much recordings here. Because I thought it would be a good idea to have a profile here on pianosociety web. It's page which I can show to some contacts etc. So that I need there good pick of recordings.
About youtube and musicblau. It was normal comment. Omg, maybe you or musicblau are too much oversensitive to read the words like "Try to sing", or "you have problems with technics" I really feel sorry but I can't help you with it. And what's more.. Even if I write really rude words, it's my choice. But I don't do it. But we are now about youtube... Try to watch the comments bellow my videos. I should be angry, not you or musicblau to who I wrote normal constructive comment which he didn't accepted. The comment isn't there...
Of course I am the best pianist on the world! Of course I am playing dayly in Carnegie Hall and etc. I travel all around the world and everybody is absolutelly zero with comparsion with me! Only joking. You made me laugh. And you absolutelly haven't understood... I don't know what to think about your persona after this. Are you exhausted from working or what? I've never said it and I haven't thought by this way. But to be honest. Here at pianosociety are plenty and plenty better pianists than me. But they have only a few recordings - but I really honour them and I am happy that the recordings from those people are here. On the other hand here are some worse pianists but they have gigantic library of recordings here and their behavior is behavior of a king. The main problem is in music feeling. I don't feel problems with mistakes, if it isn't too much. But if somebody plays without mistakes and without feeling, it's much worse than somebody would play with mistakes and with feeling. And I think music feeling is part of persona. You play same sensitive as persona you are. That's enough for commenting etc.
If you would like to kick me of, you can delete my profile. Of course, it's great idea. But I had thought that when you added me to pianosociety you had wanted some more recordings for your page. It's very good here that here is chance to pick from plenty recordings. In the internet there are no sites like this. But do everything as you want and be happy from it. I am quite disgusted... Really good job lady!

_________________Bohumir - don't take it so hard, please... Usually I don't think about what I write.

Yes, the purpose of Piano Society is to offer quality recordings and I should not let a member’s raunchy behavior dictate how I deal with him.

I did not used to hold such negative opinions about you. But when someone slams a friend of mine for no good reason, then I take offense. Your comments on Youtube were all negative and flat out rude and insulting. A little advice for you: 1. Most likely you will become a piano teacher when you are done with your schooling, and therefore you better learn how to critique, advise, and teach in a more appropriate manner. You will not have many students otherwise. 2. You owe my friend an apology.

_________________"Simplicity is the highest goal, achievable when you have overcome all difficulties." ~ Frederic Chopin

I am not aware of what has happened with Andreas (musicusblau) and your commenting on his playing but if Monica is so angry she must have good reasons for it. There is a difference between negative comments or criticism and insult.

Now, I must admit your Ballade is impressive. There is power and decisiveness in your interpretation. And you manage to convey the appropriate feeling of the music. You are a talented pianist.

Wiser: thank you very much and (now to be honest without jokes) I honour this very much after the conversation up. But this topic should be about my bad behavior so that I am going to continue.

Pianolady: I know that I have a problem with comunication. If I think something, I usually say it very very honest. And if I thought that he should sing and think about technics, I wrote it simply... It shouldn't have been bad, nasty or rude. I really didn't want it would have been impolite. I wrote only what I thought and I didn't think, if it's nice or not. Ok, I should think about it but it's me... And I think I haven't written something rude and insulting to him. There were no rude words and phrases. But I think that Musicblau should write here something because I really don't know by what I've insulted him. If I've insulted him by my note about singing and technics, it is very regrettable.

And about my not commenting here. Ok, this is true. I should write something sometimes to the recordings here...

_________________Bohumir - don't take it so hard, please... Usually I don't think about what I write.

About youtube and musicblau. It was normal comment. Omg, maybe you or musicblau are too much oversensitive to read the words like "Try to sing", or "you have problems with technics" I really feel sorry but I can't help you with it. And what's more.. Even if I write really rude words, it's my choice. But I don't do it. But we are now about youtube... Try to watch the comments bellow my videos. I should be angry, not you or musicblau to who I wrote normal constructive comment which he didn't accepted. The comment isn't there...

Your comment was rude and insulting. Don´t play the innocent child here. I have deleted your comment after I have let it for a while on my youtube-channel and you sure know, that I had answered it. Later I have deleted it, because I found it to be too rude. I don´t know, who has written the other comments on your channel. I haven´t done it. May be some people, who have read your comment on my channel? I have many friends there. But I really don´t know, who wrote them.Unfortunately I have deleted your nasty comment (also from my computer), because I didn´t want to pollute my hard-disc with such unpolite comments, which just attest the arrogant behaviour of a young and unripe person. So I have no real proof here. BTW, also I got very insulting comments of another youtube-user, containing such words as "you are an asshole" or "a jerk" and similar expressions. Of course, even if I still would have the original text of your comment, it would be no real proof, because I could have invented it! But I never would do this. So, everything which one writes on the internet is no real "proof", only handwritten documents can be truely considered as such. So, here is statement against statement, but I swear, that I tell the truth. I just copied my text here from the General Forum:

Here you can read, what I have written to Monica in the General Forum in the thread "next book club reading". I only told her of your comment, while we were at it:"Thank you, that you stick by me, though I have to add, that Bohumir Stehlik wrote "only" one longer insulting and only negative critique to my 2nd version of Scherzo no. 3, not several (just because you wrote the plural "comments"). In this one nasty comment he didn´t write one positive word, but only how unmusical and how bad it is, how blocked I am and how many technical problems I have, the other 10 nasty comments came from another user named homerboy488 (http://www.youtube.com/user/homerboy488). And these contained a lot of cuss words like "you are an asshole" or "a jerk" and much more of this "nice stuff". Is this homerboy eventually a friend of Bohumir Stehlik? I don´t know and I absolutely don´t know, who this homerboy488 is, I never have had anything to do with him, and I don´t know his real name. For me this whole story is as mysterious as our novel is at this moment. I really also don´t know, what reason Bohumir Stehlik could have to attac me like this. Wether I know him nor have I wrote one word to one of his recordings. I found it to be very coward of Bohumir Stehlik to write such a negative comment on youtube, it would have been much braver, if he would have written it on PS in my thread. But I suppose, he knows, how obnoxious he would make himself with such a comment here. However, my Scherzo isn´t so bad, that it doesn´t deserve any positive word. (And even if it would be, such a comment would be also very unpolite and unadequate, because we all here play just for pleasure and for free and we invest a lot of time [and money for the recording-equipment] for preparing our recordings. So, if I absolutely don´t like the interpretation of someone, and in my case it could be only mainly the interpretation, what could have disturbed him, because I care very much for the text of the score, one should keep his mouth, nobody is forced to listen to someone, whos interpretation he absolutely doesn´t like) You know, I´m a friend of critical advices and factual critics, which are based on the score. But nasty comments I just delete on youtube and I do block the user, who writes them (one has this option on youtube). I find it to be too silly to start a "battle of cuss words" there or anywhere else. I personally consider Bohumir Stehlik as someone, who isn´t a member of this site, because a member of this nice site shouldn´t behave so nastily. I have nothing more to say to him."

sejra wrote:

Quote:

On the other hand here are some worse pianists but they have gigantic library of recordings here and their behavior is behavior of a king. The main problem is in music feeling. I don't feel problems with mistakes, if it isn't too much. But if somebody plays without mistakes and without feeling, it's much worse than somebody would play with mistakes and with feeling. And I think music feeling is part of persona. You play same sensitive as persona you are. That's enough for commenting etc.

This statement only underlines just your arrogant and selfish manner IMO, because you think, you can judge, who is a worse pianist than you and what is "without feeling", so you seem to be able to judge, what is the right feeling, like you did in your comment on my 3rd Scherzo by Chopin. If you write me, that I´m playing with a wrong expression you know, of course, what is the absolute right expression (and tempo). I personally don´t feel spoken to by these words you wrote above, because I do play with feeling, even if you don´t like my manner of feeling. Of course, I try to avoid mistakes in recordings, but I mostly do some of them, but my hobby is to edit recordings, I just like this, and I have written at many places, that my recordings in many cases contain some cuts, which contain the improved passages. IMO it´s not bad to do some mistakes, if a recording is expressively and musically played. And if you read, what I wrote to Felipe Sarro f.ex., who told me, that he isn´t so demanding concerning youtube-recordings like me, you see, that I´m not as arrogant like you: I said to him, that it is good, that we all are different and we have made some jokes with each other and I appreciate his recordings nevertheless. I really consider him to be a very good musician, may be even better than me, but I really don´t want to compare here any member with another one like you did with yourself. I personally wouldn´t dare to judge myself so surely and give me generously a place in the "middle-level" of all pianists here like you do for yourself above.

Come on, tell us names, who on this site (all) is a worse pianist than you? And who behaves like a king? Me, Monica, Chris (who prefers to play his excellent Bach-recordings with not too much emotion, but with a more "neutral expression" (meant by me in the best sense of the word) or which other members?Come on, be brave and not so coward!

sejra wrote:

Quote:

Even if I write really rude words, it's my choice. But I don't do it.

To your first sentence: have you ever heard of politeness, decent and human behaviour? To your second sentence: This is a lie. You do it!

I am not aware of what has happened with Andreas (musicusblau) and your commenting on his playing but if Monica is so angry she must have good reasons for it. There is a difference between negative comments or criticism and insult.

You are so right, my friend. You really don´t have to take to side with one of me or sejra, but I hope you understand, that I´ll not comment on sejras pieces here.

Well it's nice to have another decent flame war in these quarters again. It's been a while ago since emotions flared up as high as this, and it was worth the wait

Seriously now, I have not seen that Youtube remark so I can't really take sides. But I guess it must have been more than just a clumsily-worded blunt remark which was not meant the way it sounded.

Indeed Bohumir, from your previous postings here, I had you down as a brilliant and talended pianist, but also as a rather arrogant young sod with little consideration for anybody else. This may be only perception... but on the Internet you will be judged by what you write. Ultimately, it's all about the music, but as others said, there is also something like good manners. I've offended some people here in the past (being a worse pianist with tons of recordings who likes to behave like a king) but not quite in this way, it seems.

It would be a pity if your excellent recordings would be gone from this site, but it maybe there will be no other option if you do not change your attitude. It's a bit lame to hide behind your so-called 'problem with communication'. If you have such a problem at all (which I don't believe) it's all the more reason to weigh your words and not flap out things that you may come to regret. Then again you don't even realize that you said anything out of order.

Anyway, this Ballade is very well played. There are many good things and for a live recording (I assume it is) very few slips. Well done. But I have to side with the others in no longer wishing to comment on your recordings, however great they may be. I assume this won't bother you much

Hello there once again.
I was thinking a lot, if I should write something more or if I should let this to die in time. After this longer time, after talking a lot with my friends about this I decided to answer once more.
Maybe it isn't believable for you but it touched me quite lot. I don't want to be selfish and arrogant. And I am trying to not be like that.
I wrote the comment on youtube because I was looking for a recording of this scherzo because of my friend who played it. It was luck that I found your recording. You are probably not used to have a lot of critic. I am quite used to have a lesson with my teacher when she says me that almost everything is bad. It's good school. You probably haven't it. This seems to me like "emperors new clothes". This forced me to listen your another recordings. It's much better, I can say I like it. So I think this recording was only bad luck. But I commented it how I fel it. It's big pity that you deleted the comment from everywhere. I think that you probably mix two or three comments to one. But back to your scherzo, if you opened this big offtopic. I listened it with my girlfriend (swedish pianist) and after the listening I asked her a question "What is positive on this recording?". After quite long time she answered "He has really good instrument". After that I opened scores and decided that you don't follow it at all. If you wouldn't follow editors notes, it's ok. But you don't follow the composer! You don't follow Chopin! So that because of it I wrote comment like this and I can repeat here, if you want. But I listened your other recordings and your another recording of the scherzo and it's much much better! It's good.
Who cares, if you edit recordings or not. You could edit recording at all but still is hearable, if you are good musician or bad. Who are talking about mistakes? I wrote that I don't care about mistakes, if it isn't too much. Of course, you haven't so much mistakes there but I can see big problems, probably the tempo is much slower because of the technics. I can see that you have pain in your hands (of course you can write that you haven't any pain and your hands are absolutelly free). So that once again: I wrote the comment because of this.
Of course I can't judge myself. I haven't writen anything like that! You are totally wrong. I can judge two people because I hear it - a person who isn't musician can hear it (like recording technician in Bergen studio, he don't know notes but he has perfect hearing and heart). I can't judge myself and somebody. It never be objective. But it seems that you can judge yourself because of you words. All of the second part of your writing is one by YOU. Like you are saying "I, Me, I, Me". Of course I have read your CV with "I, Me, I" but I wish it's only bad luck. You can't be like that, I don't believe... So I won't tell you any names who's better or worse because I really don't know it and I really don't want to know it. For me it isn't so important who's better or worse. I don't care. Maybe you care who plays better or worse than you, if you can write something like this. You judged yourself very sure... But I can say that you behave like a king. After your last comment.
It's big pity that you have people here who know you and I have absolutely nobody. But you woke up in me bad feeling from you. I feel sick after reading something like this. I feel sick that you can't stand one negative comment. I don't care, if you wrote something good/wrong about my recordings. I would accept both and be sure that I wouldn't do something like you have done.
So after this; I don't like you. I am risking the deleting of my profile here, of course. Now some people decided to not comment my recordings. What do you want more? Sorry but don't await any apologies from me. Maybe I wanted to apologize you before your last comment. But after that everything has gone. I will defend myself but not by your way of blind shooting. But I wish you good luck and many of successes. It's pity that one comment of the recording which is little bit another than others does this.

_________________Bohumir - don't take it so hard, please... Usually I don't think about what I write.

You're obviously being ignored by the admins (and for good reason). That's why I decied to write this response.

First of all, I don't quite know why someone who thinks he's professional and is going in to music bothers to worry about or comment on an amateur's playing (especially on a silly hack site like Youtube).

Second of all, I finally decided to listen to the playing here because this discussion thread has rather annoyed me, and I wanted to see whether there was any merit to your rather arrogant posturing. This playing of this piece is crude, sodden, and technically and musically inadequate. There are numerous details that aren't right (at the beginning you, for instance, completely rush that dotted rhythm in measure 6 and the trillo isn't clear in measure 3, also, all the dotted rhythms are totally inaccurate and uneven. The texture is generally sodden, overpedaled, and unclear. Your tempo is completely uneven for the duration of the piece. I can't even really hear a tempo in any of the various sections. You're obviously slowing down whenever you need to to grab the notes, which is professionally unacceptable, and even then there are quite a few mistakes (though certainly not too many if the playing were good). The fast middle section, which should be played in the high manner of the French jeu perle, is completely smeared. Most of your accents are wrong and tend toward the second beat where they are written clearly by Chopin on the first beat (any good ear should hear them anyway). The climactic entrance into the coda (as well as the coda itself) doesn't sound like a passionate love affair; it sounds like elephants storming across a field, for it's so pounded and heavy. The list could go on for pages.

Anyway, you needn't start talking to someone about going to get technique or about singing lines (most of which are crudely overshadowed hy inadequate balance between the fingers of the hand --stomping of the thumb and second finger). You have a lot of work to do.

I don't want to be selfish and arrogant. And I am trying to not be like that.

Also with this reply your attempt fails, alas, and I will show you why.

Quote:

You are probably not used to have a lot of critic. I am quite used to have a lesson with my teacher when she says me that almost everything is bad. It's good school. You probably haven't it.

I´m 38 years old, teacher, I have my examination and I have probably got more critic in my life you can imagine. How do you come to this absurd imagination I´m not used to critic, sometimes I have got a lot of critics also on this site here and I always (or mostly) felt them to be constructive. If you would have read some comments to my Bach-recordings or other works here you would know, how much critics I have got (together with very positive comments) and how much I have worked on the points, which were item of these critics and how much elaborated re-recordings I have done here on PS. I have also got a lot of critic when I was at your age and studied music at university and I think, I could learn something from it, though I do not affirm, that I´m still the perfect and ready pianist, of course. I´m sure I´m not and to be a pianist means a development for the whole life.Your critic was just insulting, irreverent and rude, that means unconstructive in every aspect. You didn´t give me advices on details or certain aspects, but with rude and insulting words you damned my whole recording.

Quote:

So I think this recording was only bad luck. But I commented it how I fel it. It's big pity that you deleted the comment from everywhere. I think that you probably mix two or three comments to one. But back to your scherzo, if you opened this big offtopic. I listened it with my girlfriend (swedish pianist) and after the listening I asked her a question "What is positive on this recording?". After quite long time she answered "He has really good instrument". After that I opened scores and decided that you don't follow it at all. If you wouldn't follow editors notes, it's ok. But you don't follow the composer! You don't follow Chopin! So that because of it I wrote comment like this and I can repeat here, if you want.

Here you are arrogant again. Who are you to judge, if I followed the composer and if my recording was "only bad luck". I´m sure I followed most of the prescriptions of the score, it´s only the tempo, dynamic, agogic and other matters of interpretation which are not your personal taste, that´s all. Please, stop it, I´m sick of it. And I have really no desire for a repetition of all your rude words again.

Quote:

I can see that you have pain in your hands (of course you can write that you haven't any pain and your hands are absolutelly free). So that once again: I wrote the comment because of this.

You must be a true visionary. My hands feel very well and quite relaxed.

Quote:

But it seems that you can judge yourself because of you words. All of the second part of your writing is one by YOU. Like you are saying "I, Me, I, Me". Of course I have read your CV with "I, Me, I" but I wish it's only bad luck. You can't be like that, I don't believe... So I won't tell you any names who's better or worse because I really don't know it and I really don't want to know it. For me it isn't so important who's better or worse. I don't care. Maybe you care who plays better or worse than you, if you can write something like this. You judged yourself very sure... But I can say that you behave like a king. After your last comment.

It´s good, that you know, that I behave like a king, so you don´t have to think about yourself.

Quote:

So after this; I don't like you.

Thanks for the compliment, but that´s not my blemish.

Quote:

Sorry but don't await any apologies from me. Maybe I wanted to apologize you before your last comment. But after that everything has gone. I will defend myself but not by your way of blind shooting.

And again your attempt not be arrogant and selfish fails, nothing was "blind" in my comment above. It was seriously sophisticated and elaborated and I still mean all what I wrote above. I would write it exactly again like it is.

Bohumir, I find this discussion rather amusing – not because I enjoy “word wars,” but because you can’t seem to be able to apologize. To be able to say the words, “I’m sorry, I’ve behaved in a way offensive to God and man.”

Listen, we all have made mistakes in our time… some worse than others. And when we do the wrong thing, it’s imperative that we have humility. There’s no way around it. So, I suggest to you, as someone who has her fair share of faults and has made many mistakes, be a man, admit you’re wrong, and apologize.

_________________Though everything else may appear shallow and repulsive, even the smallest task in music is so absorbing, and carries us so far away from town, country, earth, and all worldly things, that it is truly a blessed gift of God.

After one and half year I am back on a half step. I would like to say sorry, I apologise. I can say sorry but in certain causes it is very hard. The one and half year I was thinking about this everything here and I was looking at the icon of this site in my bookmarks. I wanted to apologise but the other side of me did not wanted to show that I had lost on all of the lines. I am able to apologise, to say sorry, but I am not able to loose. I knew it had been very stupid from me. Sorry. Hope it will be forgiven sometimes in the future or at least forgotten.

Sending named apologies to Mr. Andreas Pfaul

Have a nice time.

/B

_________________Bohumir - don't take it so hard, please... Usually I don't think about what I write.

I appreciate you checking back in to apologize, after reconsidering the argument for a sufficiently long time. Apologizing seems to be extremely difficult for you - why is that ? Let me guess... some people are just more talented, proud and stubborn than others.

Anyway, we can leave all that behind if you are sincere about this. In that case, welcome back. We'll see if we get into the same kind of discussion again. I hope not (though I have to admit it is quite amusing )

After one and half year I am back on a half step. I would like to say sorry, I apologise. I can say sorry but in certain causes it is very hard. The one and half year I was thinking about this everything here and I was looking at the icon of this site in my bookmarks. I wanted to apologise but the other side of me did not wanted to show that I had lost on all of the lines. I am able to apologise, to say sorry, but I am not able to loose. I knew it had been very stupid from me. Sorry. Hope it will be forgiven sometimes in the future or at least forgotten.

Sending named apologies to Mr. Andreas Pfaul

Now, after nearly 14 days after you have written this I have seen these lines by pure hazard. So, I ask me, why haven´t you written me a pm?But now I see this hazardly I will give you my answer: it is not forgotten, of course, but it is forgiven!Thank you for your apologies and welcome back to PS!

As Chris wrote I hope, we will not get into the same kind of discussions again!

techneut wrote:

Quote:

We'll see if we get into the same kind of discussion again. I hope not (though I have to admit it is quite amusing )

Why I post so much recordings here. Because I thought it would be a good idea to have a profile here on pianosociety web. It's page which I can show to some contacts etc. So that I need there good pick of recordings.

it was said here that PS should focus on music, and not on people's behavior. well... I disagree.

this website is maintained by two people in their free time. it allows free webhosting for pianists, as long as their recordings are submitted to the audition room and approved. it also subsists due to donation and the goodwill of the community.

IDEALLY, it should only focus on music. but considering the whole thing, it's quite annoying for mainly professional pianists who arrive here, deposit their recordings and disappear forever. PianoSociety DOESN'T WORK FOR HIRE! it's not here to SERVE the pianists! it's quite unfair that pianists take advantage of it, the free hard work of the moderators, and don't even care for them or the community!

I think in the past PS should beg for recordings. now it is more popular and has a lot of them, and one more of Chopin is not its ultimate need. the conclusion is: it's quite in the moderators' (or the community's) right to allow or disallow someone for extra musical reasons, even astrological reasons!

by the way, this is a wonderful performance! it is completely satisfying and I have nothing to complain about.

I think in the past PS should beg for recordings. now it is more popular and has a lot of them, and one more of Chopin is not its ultimate need. the conclusion is: it's quite in the moderators' (or the community's) right to allow or disallow someone for extra musical reasons, even astrological reasons!

Ideally, we should be objective enough to base that decision on musical reasons alone. I think mostly we are. But it can be hard.... Sometimes, we just choose to ignore someone who rubs us (and the other PS members) the wrong way. In such a case, it does not matter one bit whether the repertoire is common or not, or whether it's a splendid performance or not. For better or worse, this is a community and people should learn to behave and fit in - same as it is in the big bad world out there.

Why I post so much recordings here. Because I thought it would be a good idea to have a profile here on pianosociety web. It's page which I can show to some contacts etc. So that I need there good pick of recordings.

it was said here that PS should focus on music, and not on people's behavior. well... I disagree.

this website is maintained by two people in their free time. it allows free webhosting for pianists, as long as their recordings are submitted to the audition room and approved. it also subsists due to donation and the goodwill of the community.

IDEALLY, it should only focus on music. but considering the whole thing, it's quite annoying for mainly professional pianists who arrive here, deposit their recordings and disappear forever. PianoSociety DOESN'T WORK FOR HIRE! it's not here to SERVE the pianists! it's quite unfair that pianists take advantage of it, the free hard work of the moderators, and don't even care for them or the community!

Hello Felipe,

Indeed, looking at the amount of recordings and list of the artists one can see there is no shortage, on the other hand, it is quite interesting to see that MOST of them not actively posting and let's face it, the traffic on this particular board is extremely slow. Definitely, I would not blame it all on those artists and definitely there is some kind of explanation. I am afraid, the free work of moderators would not be the one--I've been on different discussion boards (from piano related, to purely technical and pro-audio stuff) for many years, and ALWAYS the moderators work for free and this is their free choice.

After a year being on this board, as I see it, something what can be a a strong point here can also be a biggest weakness. That sense of community is always a sword with two edges and inevitably tastes of the community starts dominating the forum, both musically and personally. If somebody even little bit different, then that person is automatically just does not get accepted. Only a certain circle of people with certain manners, certain ideas/way of talking and thinking can get inside. I am not saying it is bad, but it definitely limits the forum outreach. If that's the goal of the board and it wants to exist in a little, warm, and fuzzy circle of close friends then it is fine, otherwise I believe there should be at least a consciousness of those shortcomings.

Another reason, it is actually quite amazing to see, without exceptions all the interesting, or more or less interesting discussions immediately get dropped. I personally posted quite a few youtube recordings from J. Hoffmann to G. Gould, which are in my view are pinnacles of piano performance. Guess what, none of them got even one single response!

There is no one single topic (let alone serious discussion) on the aesthetics of pianism, performance, or composer. The only single serious constructive discussion on technique I can see is an excellent topic opened by Musical-MD, but it does not seem to be popular, either.

Sorry to say Felipe, if you mentioned professional pianists, I hardly could see any of them trying to get through this wall and it is very unfortunate to see them as you rightly put it, depositing the recording and go. Clearly, one cannot put entire blame on them.

techneut wrote:

felipesarro wrote:

I think in the past PS should beg for recordings. now it is more popular and has a lot of them, and one more of Chopin is not its ultimate need. the conclusion is: it's quite in the moderators' (or the community's) right to allow or disallow someone for extra musical reasons, even astrological reasons!

Ideally, we should be objective enough to base that decision on musical reasons alone. I think mostly we are. But it can be hard.... Sometimes, we just choose to ignore someone who rubs us (and the other PS members) the wrong way. In such a case, it does not matter one bit whether the repertoire is common or not, or whether it's a splendid performance or not. For better or worse, this is a community and people should learn to behave and fit in - same as it is in the big bad world out there.

Ah, then it explains the reason why even if authorities chose to stop by my recordings threads, then it is mostly with irrelevant, or out of topic comments.

On the other hand, I can see perfectly well how my persona does not fit in the community, so no surprises here.

Best, M

P.S. Sorry for out of topic rant, but most of this thread does not belong to the topic opened by OP, anyway.

Musicusblau: I have not writen you any pm because before the "conversation" went on the opened forum. And also, this is a thing which touches whole comunity.

And to the new topic of this OT. I know my position here and I should not put some more wood to the fire. But... I have to say that both sides has their own truths. Of course, it is not possible to focus only on the music. It would be so easy and also, it could be done only with robots. We are people so except music we are also feeling personalities - even thru text. That's nothing new.

I know that all of the moderators works here for free (fortunatelly they don't put so much of their own money to PS as before thanks to many donations...). It is going to be strange now, prepare yourself. When I was maybe 16 or 17, it was the "bull's age" (maybe my "bull's age" is forever). I had a computer, internet and a online RPG game. Thanks to circumstances I got myself to a work of gamemaster on a czech free server. I was there almost every day, sometimes just 15 minutes, sometimes 4 hours. It was not a playing. It was helping to another players, scripting, repairing mistakes in database and banning stupid cheaters. Sometimes it was very boring. But I was doing that for free - 100% for free. Why? Because I liked that I am not useless, people knew me and liked me. What would I like to say? It is your choice to do it for free. If you want money, you can put here some more commercials. But don't attack professionals, don't attack 1-minute commers which sometimes can post a really good recording. It is their own choice that they don't read the gold in the another topics (not only Audition room) and they don't want to talk more... To be honest, PS stands at half-proffesional recordings. Without them it would be much less than it is. PS, as a complex, IS here to SERVE the pianists. If the PS doesn't serve the pianists, it would be no comunity, no recordings, no PS. And the name wouldn't be Piano Society because it would not be a society. Don't take this so hard, please! I am not trying to make some more fire. I know exactly how you feel and what you would like to say by your words. I am just trying to dress it a little bit.

I am not a professional but I am trying to do something with my quite unprofessional state. Today the life of a musicial is quite hard. Musicians are in a bad situation. If they don't have a really fantastic teacher with plenty of contact and a good heart or they are not fenomenal, they just stop with playing or they go to teach. Some of them are trying do something with that and they are looking thru whole internet. And they come here... That's the first idea to post here a recording. They do what they should do and they go away. One really good thing which has been told me by the best teacher I have ever had: EVERYBODY IS DOING THE BEST - ALWAYS. People can't be angry on them! It is one's own decision to just post recordings. I know I have been doing that too - oh, it is quote of Felipe from one and half year before. Now I feel stupid for that . What should I say more about my previous behaviour?

Quote:

this is a community and people should learn to behave and fit in - same as it is in the big bad world out there.

That's extremelly nicely writen and it is true. +1

Please, don't shoot to Marik! Marik, you are an interresting intelligent guy and I like what you have writen because there is plenty of slightly hidden (as I can see from the reactions) truth. You mented the classical problem of comunity but it is nothing to do with that. The rest I have already writen.

What I would really repeat from your topic... No interrest of great recordings from youtube, no topics about deeper problems of the piano playing - usually the maximum problem is right notes - in the bar 56 you play D intead of D-flat. think that lack of conversations about "working" on pieces is a big problem and even if people here are connected, they are depriving of more progress. My friend, a trombonist, told me a nice truth: "The best is to come to as many courses as possible. You have to come, quickly hoover as biggest amount of information as possible and leave. If you will do it more than the others, you will know more and you will make a bigger progress." But it is not possible to want from somebody who is just relaxing during the piano playing to change and start to learn from everybody. Or.. One has to want oneselfs! This is a fan fun forum. So, in order to close this.. I would say... I agree with you 100% but we are not at a piano masterclass. We are at a forum of people which are happy that they can be happy with the instrument. But I really like you approach which is more professional.

I really hope that I haven't increased the fire and the rightful small reluctance against me. I don't want to touch anybody, just would like to shape the things above.

_________________Bohumir - don't take it so hard, please... Usually I don't think about what I write.

Of course, it is not possible to focus only on the music. It would be so easy and also, it could be done only with robots.

Analyzing a recording is no easy thing, and I don't know how a robot could do that.

sejra wrote:

But I was doing that for free - 100% for free. Why? Because I liked that I am not useless, people knew me and liked me. What would I like to say? It is your choice to do it for free. If you want money, you can put here some more commercials.

Simple: if they are overloaded, they quit and PS disappears. That's the point. If we like PS, we depend on them, so we should at least treat them with respect.

sejra wrote:

But don't attack professionals, don't attack 1-minute commers which sometimes can post a really good recording. It is their own choice that they don't read the gold in the another topics (not only Audition room) and they don't want to talk more...

And it is PS' choice to accept their recordings or not.And who is attacking the professionals? People from PS complained that they wanted more interaction in the community, and that the moderators are not servers in a pub! Only this.

sejra wrote:

PS, as a complex, IS here to SERVE the pianists.

No. It is here to serve the listeners. It's written in the main page. "For you, as a Piano Society visitor and listener, this means endless hours of listening for free, which we hope will bring you a lot of pleasure and joy. "That's the main thing.

sejra wrote:

EVERYBODY IS DOING THE BEST - ALWAYS. People can't be angry on them! It is one's own decision to just post recordings. I know I have been doing that too - oh, it is quote of Felipe from one and half year before.

I said that in quite a different situation.It doesn't seem that serial killers are doing their best and therefore we can't be angry with them.Or maybe we shouldn't be angry with them otherwise they kill ourselves! That's true.

Hello Bohumir (what a beautiful name! Is it Czech, or has some other roots?),

Speaking of community, there is another problem very often hidden from many eyes, which is a cultural differences. I understand you are Czech, right? Having lived in a few different countries I can say people from Europe are much more straight in what and how they say, or express and very often it can be a problem.

Heck! I can tell you, MOST of American students would never take or accept the way professors of Moscow Conservatory were talking to the students. On the other hand, we were more than happy because we knew that this is because they cared about us! That was much worse if the professor was nice and polite to you--not a good sign--time to find another teacher!

This is certainly a factor on ANY forum, and the smaller the community, the bigger the problem. Unfortunately, the life is such thing that this is us who need to tune to the community and usually, in response no any community will ever take this step, or take the blame. Indeed! It is so much easier just to get offended and reject the individual rather than take responsibility! This is just how any community or society works, whether it is a street gang, circle of 7 graders, or entire country.

I however, have to disagree with the position of your trombonist-friend. While on the surface it sounds like an attractive idea to take all you can and run and seemingly you will learn more, in reality, it is not the case. People seem much happier and learn much more when in fact, they rather GIVE, esp. when they give unconditionally. There is a wonderful book by Russian philosofer V. Soloviev called "The Great Rosenkreizer". I am not sure if it was translated, but in a wonderful way it describes two friends going through their lives, each respectively following one of those paths I wrote about. The ending of the book is quite amazing!

I personally, came to this board not to promote myself, but to offer people help with what I know (both musical and with recording). I understand, some people might not like my ideas, others chose ignore them, or yet others find them irritating. But if even one person can find them helpful and one day they spark interest; even if one single person would suddenly see the things from another angle, I already will be much happier person!

Many people helped me in this life and I don't know a better way to repay and express my gratitude than trying to give it back to others. I believe there is a good chance that with giving, one might learn much, much more... if not get some formal knowledge, then at least receive knowledge about life and yourself. Since those are inseparable part of music and piano performance I am sure those experiences will make anybody much better pianist and just happier human being!

Best, M

Last edited by Marik on Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Thanks for chipping in Felipe. I am glad someone here can see things our way. You have some good points there - though I'm not sure about the serial killer analogy. These guys can be extremely charming and educated, look at Hannibal Lecter

More serious now - I've been doing this work since 2005, and I still believe in the original mandate of PS, which is to serve both the listeners and the pianists. I have to say though that we get more positive feedback from the listeners than from most pianists... What we are more or less being told here, by Bohumir and Marik, is to take our responsibility and stop moaning because we are doing this of our own free will. That we are morally obliged to cater for each and everyone whether we like them or not, and that rather than pointing out peoples' read mistakes we should engage in lofty discussions about the merits of historic pianists, the aesthetics of performance, and what not. I don't quite know what some people expect here, and why ! This is what you get for hanging out with a bunch of amateurs ! (with apologies to those here who are professionally trained)

I feel I could rant on for years now... sorry but all this riles me a bit to be honest. It all had to come out one day. After some 5-6 years of doing the grunt work, together with Monica I hasten to add (and often she did most of the grunt work), I'd be more than happy to leave it to someone else. Having a family and a day job, time is not unlimited and I would much prefer practicing the piano to being every other pianists's obedient servant, and then being taken to task for having an opinion on that. Anybody out there up for it ? I guess not. Everybody is too busy doing their own stuff. So will I be, for quite some time, once we manage to sell our house and move. It may be nice to take a rain check.

That's it for now. To those who don't like PS the way it is, I say take it or leave it. Or, take your responsibility and join up as an admin.

You stop by my Chopin Ballade no.4 thread with unrelated and OT comments (which BTW, would be much more appropriate, say for PM) and then leave for good with no any comment on the topic. After that I open this particular thread (I will comment on the Bohumir's recording later, when I will be able to listen to it) and learn that it is actually, customary here to ignore members. Considering how demonstrative you were visiting my thread, one does not have to be a genius to connect it with "ignore list". And after that you are talking about community?!!!

What a subtle way of saying you are on a black list and being ignored (not that I even care for the reason)! What a wonderful message about sense of "community" and "brotherhood", esp. when it is coming from a moderator!!!

Maybe others will find it perfectly fine, love it as it is, and believe there is no right to complain as moderators "work too hard for free", I however, do not appreciate it and find rather condescending and insulting.

Second:

techneut wrote:

What we are more or less being told here, by Bohumir and Marik, is to take our responsibility and stop moaning because we are doing this of our own free will. That we are morally obliged to cater for each and everyone whether we like them or not, and that rather than pointing out peoples' read mistakes we should engage in lofty discussions about the merits of historic pianists, the aesthetics of performance, and what not. I don't quite know what some people expect here, and why ! This is what you get for hanging out with a bunch of amateurs ! (with apologies to those here who are professionally trained)

I cannot talk for Bohumir, but this is either that 1) I was not clear enough with what I was saying, 2) You misread what I was saying. Either one does not really matter.

Somehow, I believe I can express my humble opinion and (please note, after reading your comment about "ignore" button), I merely provided specific answers to specific statement that most of the professional pianists don't stay on the board--not more, not less. I was stating obvious facts as they are, and I am sorry if you see it as complaining, or critisizing, mocking my words.

This is your choice and up to you, Chris, to either a) get defensive, disregard the fact and pretend there was no problem, or b) all of us resolve it as adults and move forward, whichever you prefer.

Thank you for listening and understanding,

Best wishes, M

Last edited by Marik on Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:42 am, edited 26 times in total.

To those who don't like PS the way it is, I say take it or leave it. Or, take your responsibility and join up as an admin.

This is crossing into dangerous ground. In some other online communities I frequent, the moderators will sometimes invite a new and enthusiastic member to be an admin. But it is always by invitation only. When people put up their hands and say "I want to be an admin", such people are usually not the sort of responsible characters who will stick around and do a good job. Of course I haven't been on PS long enough, so I don't know whether such invitations have been offered in the past.

BTW, I do very much like PS the way it is. Of course everyone will have their own conception of the site, so it will never seem 100% perfect. But 90% perfect is certainly good enough--please do keep up the good work!

I, for one, do care. I don't want this cybercommunity going anywhere. It has served me greatly in my short months here as an avenue to communicate and exchange with other musicians of differing levels and persuasions (even if I don't know their actual names), and thusly has reopened a treasured door in my life and heart. I look forward to years of exchanges and contributions, so please, don't scare me this way!

_________________Eddy M. del Rio, MD"A smattering will not do. They must know all the keys, major and minor, and they must literally 'know them backwards.'" - Josef Lhevinne

To you guys who are stirring up all the trouble....you probably don't care, but I think that no one has a right to complain about the way we admins do our business. Really, I am quite angry now and especially because I just spent 45-minutes doing site updating and listening, when I could have been practicing or at least watching a little television - just unwinding from a long day. I do work outside the home now too, and don't get home until after 6:00 in the evening. And then I read all this complaining. Thanks a lot...

_________________"Simplicity is the highest goal, achievable when you have overcome all difficulties." ~ Frederic Chopin

Maybe others will find it perfectly fine, love it as it is, and believe there is no right to complain as moderators "work too hard for free", I however, do not appreciate it and find rather condescending and insulting.

That's a good one. You should complain to the management. Can't get the staff these days can you....

Marik wrote:

This is your choice and up to you, Chris, to either a) get defensive, disregard the fact and pretend there was no problem, or b) all of us resolve it as adults and move forward, whichever you prefer.

As adults. What a wonderfully subtle way of saying I should grow up. I definitely see you are only here to help.

Not sure where you get the notion of an 'ignore list' or 'ignore button'. We don't have such a feature on this site. Though thinking about it, it might come in handy

But I'm really done arguing with you Marik. In that sense at least I'm moving forward. Feel free to continue this useful discussion without me.

Maybe others will find it perfectly fine, love it as it is, and believe there is no right to complain as moderators "work too hard for free", I however, do not appreciate it and find rather condescending and insulting.

That's a good one. You should complain to the management. Can't get the staff these days can you....

Marik wrote:

This is your choice and up to you, Chris, to either a) get defensive, disregard the fact and pretend there was no problem, or b) all of us resolve it as adults and move forward, whichever you prefer.

As adults. What a wonderfully subtle way of saying I should grow up. I definitely see you are only here to help.

Not sure where you get the notion of an 'ignore list' or 'ignore button'. We don't have such a feature on this site. Though thinking about it, it might come in handy

But I'm really done arguing with you Marik. In that sense at least I'm moving forward. Feel free to continue this useful discussion without me.

Well Chris, I was hoping very much to a different resolution, but that was your choice...

It is clear, you did not listen, let alone understood what I was saying, but on the other hand, that's the human nature to hear only what we want to hear. I do not see any good reason for myself to stay in the place I feel un-welcomed and ignored, even if I found here some friends.

Again, we cannot drop this discussion, pretending as there is no problem and as if nothing happened. I was very clear saying we ALL, without any subtle hints at you, but including myself, as well. You chose to read what you want to read, so I am also moving forward, but unfortunately, (or fortunately for some ), already without this community. Chris, Monica (or management), please feel free to delete my recordings and messages, as you wish, and hopefully, you feel relieved now .

Thank you everybody for those fun moments we had good discussions and/or (sometimes) good fights .

Also, big thanks to those, who took time to listen and post critiques, as well as nice and kind comments about my playing.

Sorry Bohumir, all of this happened in your thread--I did not have an intention to hijack it, that just happened so...

All the best and good luck to all, Mark

Last edited by Marik on Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:00 am, edited 2 times in total.

Well Chris, I was hoping very much to a different resolution, but that was your choice...

I don't pretend for this to be a resolution. My choice is to leave the argument as it's not going anywhere. Your choice is to leave the premises. We all make our choices, sometimes good, sometimes bad.

Good luck, and I am sure you will find some other forum which will make you feel more at home among equals.

I do care, too, and would like to make some remarks, hoping it's not too late ( I caught this discussion yesterday...).I joined in 3 years ago and even though we miss the interesting contributions and discussions at that time, I believe that PS found some improvements of its own from that time. We (amatures) have grown up to a certain degree as pianists (we certainly play better, we try harder, we really do our best). Not only by oneself, but through encouraging and helping each other. At this point PS serves pianists, and that very well. The quality of our recording can certainly be enjoyed better, by the numourous listeners, so PS serves the listener, either. It is all of us that achieved this, but without our admins it was not possible.

For pros' ears/eyes the level of PS could seem to be insufficient. But the very fact that PS has the room also for enthusiastic amateurs, attracted me an awful lot and this is still the most important point to me. I personally had hard times with harmonizing my passion for the piano and my other life and if I didn't find the PS, I would have quit playing.

But we amateurs don't want to exclude pros or those who were trained professionally, since PS is the community of piano lovers. Alas, if Marik leaves PS, since the others certainly could profit from his abilities in many ways and his willingness to help. And apart from pro or amateur, we need to have new "regulars", in oder to improve PS. Everyone has her/his own merits and the diversity of our members enriches PS.

I didn't follow all the problematic discussions scattered throughout the many forums on PS, but I see that there are utterances which could cause misunderstandings and offences to someone's feeling, even though they are not intended at all. I fully understand how the admins feel at the comments by Bohumir and Marik, but also found Chris' way of commenting on Marik's Chopin thread a bit strange, frankly speaking. (But I bet, Marik, there is no such thing as an "ignored list", definitely.) Cannot you guys try to find another conclusion, once again?

_________________Hye-Jin Lee"The love for music. The respect for the composer. The desire to express something that reaches and moves the listener." (Montserrat Caballé about her main motivation for becoming a singer)

but also found Chris' way of commenting on Marik's Chopin thread a bit strange, frankly speaking.

I do not see what was strange (or unrelated/OT, in Marik's words) about it. I just wanted to confirm whether or not Marik intendedto be listed as a PS pianist with this recording. After all, that is usually the goal when people submit recordings, and I find it strange when someone submits such perfect recordings and not want them it up on the site. The wording may have been a bit suggestive, indeed. That's because IIRC after his first Rach submissions we asked Marik if he wanted to join as a pianist but we did not get an answer.

Anyway once again, my only conclusion was that I want to stop arguing with Marik. If that makes him leave the site, well... it's a free country, as they say.

This is crossing into dangerous ground. In some other online communities I frequent, the moderators will sometimes invite a new and enthusiastic member to be an admin. But it is always by invitation only. When people put up their hands and say "I want to be an admin", such people are usually not the sort of responsible characters who will stick around and do a good job. Of course I haven't been on PS long enough, so I don't know whether such invitations have been offered in the past.

Indeed getting an admin is not so trivial. Ideally it requires a combination of skills in both IT and music, plus a willingness to devote time on learning the stuff (which is also a big investment for us as there are many things to learn) as well as doing the daily grunt work. Keep in mind this is not just a forum but also a large site with recordings we have to evaluate, tag and upload. People don't usually realize that. They think we just sit here in the forum playing the big bad moderator. Well anybody can do that

Over the years there have not been many people here who we think would qualify as an admin, but in those few cases, it was always the same: no time. Actually I can sympathize with people not wanting to do this. If only for the prospect they'd have to put up with me

Others: Exactly now I can see the problem in a selfishness a little bit (I shouldn't talk about it, especially in this "Black" topic). As I can see, nobody can look at the thing globaly, nobody is able to see it from more than 1 view - somebody's own view. Nobody is able to say: "I want this, I think it is right but others want that and they also think it is good." Theese last posts looks like a children's corner where several children are in a quarrel about how they should play with a ball... Nobody is able to think about others opinions.

Chris: I don't know why you have started once again about moaning. I think everything was told before, I tried to write (but not so clearly) that I understand how you feel, I understand that it is a terrible work, I honour it because I know how it is but also I tried to write something from another view - to make a global objective complex. I feel sad that it has not been understood and that everybody is still "singing his own song".

I feel this discussion has stopped to be productive before quite long time. Nothing will change (at least I don't believe anything will change - it is ), only the relations between people will be worse. I am sure PS doesn't want this and it is dangerous for the comunity - to cut it even more to several camps or to divide more from the "medium level"...

_________________Bohumir - don't take it so hard, please... Usually I don't think about what I write.

Theese last posts looks like a children's corner where several children are in a quarrel about how they should play with a ball... Nobody is able to think about others opinions.

Ha, that is an astute observation indeed. Good to have someone older and wiser step in

sejra wrote:

Chris: I don't know why you have started once again about moaning. I think everything was told before, I tried to write (but not so clearly) that I understand how you feel, I understand that it is a terrible work, I honour it because I know how it is but also I tried to write something from another view - to make a global objective complex. I feel sad that it has not been understood and that everybody is still "singing his own song".

I did recognize the good intentions of your post (even though I did not quite agree with everything) and was going to reply in a constructive manner. But then Marik stepped in and things got a bit out of hand. I don't think I started it.

sejra wrote:

I feel this discussion has stopped to be productive before quite long time. Nothing will change (at least I don't believe anything will change - it is ), only the relations between people will be worse. I am sure PS doesn't want this and it is dangerous for the comunity - to cut it even more to several camps or to divide more from the "medium level"...

We'll have to see about that. I've said what I wanted to say, well most of it anyway, and am not taking anything back of it.

Let's just everybody go back to before this all started. Bohimur wants to move on and we are not preventing that. Nor is anyone asking Mario to leave. We did ask him several times if wants to become a member and he never responded, which is also a bit strange.Have a nice day, everyone.

_________________"Simplicity is the highest goal, achievable when you have overcome all difficulties." ~ Frederic Chopin

Let's just everybody go back to before this all started. Bohimur wants to move on and we are not preventing that. Nor is anyone asking Mario to leave. We did ask him several times if wants to become a member and he never responded, which is also a bit strange.Have a nice day, everyone.

Sounds like a great idea Too much has been said already. I seem to have over-estimated my skin thickness - it's still pretty easy to wind me up

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