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Good day, denizens of OC.net! Per our tradition, the forum will shut down for Clean Monday, beginning around 9pm Sunday evening (2/18) and ending around 9pm Monday evening (2/19). In the spirit of the coming Forgiveness Sunday, I ask you to forgive me for the sins I have committed against you. At the end of Great and Holy Week, the Forum will also shut down for Holy Friday and Holy Saturday (times TBA).

There may be one member on the board who does...and he probably knows who he is.

Anyways, if he is to be canonized, it must be made clear that the Church does not endorse all of his teachings. I fear that glorifying him will result in some of his more fervent supporters declaring that this proves he was right on everything he taught. But nonetheless, what I know of his life, I do think he is probably amongst the saints.

I couldn't say if he will ever be canonized or not, but would be very happy to see it happen. It's interesting when reading Fr Seraphim's writings how he will refer to "Bishop" Theophan or "Bishop" Ignatius, both of whom are now Saints.

Like the Councils, the Church does nothing new when it recognizes someone as a Saint. They only affirm what has already been known. St. Seraphim Rose is already considered such by much of the Orthodox world. His Icons are venerated, and people pray to him for guidance. I voted "yes" because I, and most Orthodox Christians that I personally know, already consider him a Saint, as well as recognize his teachings as valid.

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I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

There are many of us who already believe Fr. Seraphim is a saint. For those who would demand to know 'why?', we must be careful that we don't fall into the Western reasoning. That is to say that the Orthodox Church doesn't have a list of criterion and an investigation team to verify said list. But as for myself, and a great many others whom I have spoken with regarding his canonization, we feel it in our hearts. We pray to St. Seraphim of Platina to intercede for us and he does so. The life he lead was most exemplary because he devoted every pulse to preaching and teaching Patristics and the Holy Orthodox Catholic Church.

Holy St. Seraphim, pray for us sinners.

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"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America." ~Scots-Irish saying

There are many of us who already believe Fr. Seraphim is a saint. For those who would demand to know 'why?', we must be careful that we don't fall into the Western reasoning. That is to say that the Orthodox Church doesn't have a list of criterion and an investigation team to verify said list. But as for myself, and a great many others whom I have spoken with regarding his canonization, we feel it in our hearts.

I agree with the first part of what you say, but we can go into a bit more detail than just saying we feel it in our hearts. I would say I'm not alone in believing that reading Fr Seraphim's writings helped significantly in bringing me to Orthodoxy. There are other native-English speaking Orthodox writers which have helped me, and help others - Metropolitan Kallistos being a good example - but I'll be honest in saying that there is a certain urgency in Fr Seraphim's writing that was compelling. I'd also say his writing was simpler and more straight-forward too, and I mean that as no slight on either Fr Seraphim or Metropolitan Kallistos. Given that, it doesn't surprise me that Fr Seraphim's works have been translated into Russian and Greek even though there's already a wealth of spiritual Orthodox writings in those languages already. He's added to this Orthodox treasury, without inventing anything new.

Recognizing any person as a Saint doesn't automatically mean that all their writings are considered "canonical", so whilst I appreciate concerns regarding Fr Seraphim, I don't think it's an issue. Totally divorcing the person of Fr Seraphim - the ascetic and spiritual guide - from the things he wrote is to ignore how Fr Seraphim helped bring a lot of people in the west to Orthodoxy. Fr Seraphim died before I was born, and the first contact I, and many, had with him was not through directly experiencing his intercessions, or really looking at the example of his life - all that comes later; the first contact with him, and often with Orthodoxy, is through his writings. So they're definitely part of the "why" he is recognized as a Saint already.

ps: In my last post I mentioned the people he referred to in his writings, who have since been universally recognized as Saints. I forgot to add, of course, St John of Shanghai and San Francisco, Fr Seraphim's spiritual father, who was not canonized until many years after Fr Seraphim's repose. I just think it's interesting and (perhaps) revealing that Fr Seraphim recognized and drew upon the wisdom of these Saints before they were ever officially recognized as such.

It certainly helps for a local church to have officially glorified a saintly person as a saint. I think that for now Father Seraphim is in the same situation as Mother Olga--on the way official sainthood.

i think Fr. Seraphim is definitely a Saint and will eventually be canonized. It's really only in America that he is controversial, and in my experience, he is most controversial among people who have never actually read anything by him. When I was in Serbia this summer whenever people found out we were Americans they immediately started talking about Fr. Seraphim and one priest in Belgrade asked me when he would be canonized. When I was in Greece and on Mt. Athos everyone asked about Elder Ephraim and Fr. Seraphim and he is the only American author that is sold on the Holy Mountain.

I think it is clear from reading his biography and his personal letters and the accounts of those who knew him that he attained sanctity through his ascetic struggles, and that he was a man of penetrating wisdom, moderation, and pastoral love. As he said, he crucified his mind and gained everything by it. As for his writings, everything he wrote that is considered controversial can be found in countless other Saints and in the services of the Church. He is the confirmation that even us ridiculous Americans can rise above our wholly unOrthodox culture and biases and enter into the life of God. O Venerable Father Seraphim pray unto God for us!

I've read most of what he wrote that was published, and a good bit of the introductions/editorial stuff as well, in addition to both versions of the biography... I even wrote a long something-or-other on him that I posted here long ago... but I consider him controversial

That's quite a turn around from calling Fr. Seraphim a Neo-Gnostic teacher of heresy!

Oh yes. It was an icon that was quite clearly Fr. Seraphim (as in, you'd have to have never seen a picture of the man to not know this) and the Archbishop was facing him directly. If I'm not mistaken, it was at his monastery, as well.

That's quite a turn around from calling Fr. Seraphim a Neo-Gnostic teacher of heresy!

I guess Archbishop Lazar wasn't so petty as Fr. Seraphim as to insist that every person who has even the slightest disagreement with him doesn't understand the spirit of Orthodoxy, isn't truly Orthodoxy or has some other massive defect.

That's quite a turn around from calling Fr. Seraphim a Neo-Gnostic teacher of heresy!

I guess Archbishop Lazar wasn't so petty as Fr. Seraphim as to insist that every person who has even the slightest disagreement with him doesn't understand the spirit of Orthodoxy, isn't truly Orthodoxy or has some other massive defect.

eeeh, where on earth do you see Fr. Seraphim saying something like this?

That's quite a turn around from calling Fr. Seraphim a Neo-Gnostic teacher of heresy!

I guess Archbishop Lazar wasn't so petty as Fr. Seraphim as to insist that every person who has even the slightest disagreement with him doesn't understand the spirit of Orthodoxy, isn't truly Orthodoxy or has some other massive defect.

eeeh, where on earth do you see Fr. Seraphim saying something like this?

I remember in the biography 2.0 there were lots of snide and petty type slights at people who didn't agree with him. Rather than just seeing someone accepting evolution, it was part of a greater anti-Orthodox worldview.

i dont know that seeing evolution as part of anti-Orthodox worldview has to be snide. its easy to be deceived, and how many ppl are 100% Orthodox in everything they believe? pointing out errors is not the same as considering someone a heretic or questioning the state of their soul. Fr. Seraphim remained polite in his discourses with Dr. Kalomiros, and appreciated many of his other writings and kept up correspondence with him on other issues. Regarding Archbishop Lazar Puhalo, Fr. Seraphim specifically did not mention him by name nor make personal attacks when writing on the toll houses, but Archbishop LazarPuhalo was told by the Holy Synod to stop talking about them because he was making personal attacks.

in writings of Archbishop LazarPuhalo or those coming from his press he has accused Fr. Seraphim of being a Gnostic, a Nestorian, and a Monophysite.

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If you will, you can become all flame.Extra caritatem nulla salus.In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness". सर्वभूतहितἌνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas GandhiY dduw bo'r diolch.

i dont know that seeing evolution as part of anti-Orthodox worldview has to be snide. its easy to be deceived, and how many ppl are 100% Orthodox in everything they believe? pointing out errors is not the same as considering someone a heretic or questioning the state of their soul. Fr. Seraphim remained polite in his discourses with Dr. Kalomiros, and appreciated many of his other writings and kept up correspondence with him on other issues. Regarding Lazar Puhalo, Fr. Seraphim specifically did not mention him by name nor make personal attacks when writing on the toll houses, but Puhalo was told by the Holy Synod to stop talking about them because he was making personal attacks.

in writings of Puhalo or those coming from his press he has accused Fr. Seraphim of being a Gnostic, a Nestorian, and a Monophysite.

What I'm getting at is that Fr. Seraphim seemed to set up a litmus test of Orthodoxy on issues like evolution (the scientific evidence is overwhelming, eventually this is going to look like arguing for a flat earth) or toll houses (a mere trifle). That's what I see as arrogant and misguided. Ultimately I think it is harmful to take pet theological issues and raise them to such levels of importance as he did. Furthermore his entire worldview was simply based on fantasies - Holy Russia never existed, so much of his personal philosophy might as well have been based on unicorns. From what I've read of Fr. Seraphim (and I think I've actually read all of his major books, plus the biography remasted) he was as adamant about the minutia of Holy Russia, Evolution and Toll houses as the important parts of Orthodoxy. It ultimately leads to the conclusion that if you reject any of of those minor things, the whole house of cards comes tumbling down. He lacked the finesse of a more refined theologian to clearly delineate that which was the core of Orthodoxy from the exterior decorations.

i dont know that seeing evolution as part of anti-Orthodox worldview has to be snide. its easy to be deceived, and how many ppl are 100% Orthodox in everything they believe? pointing out errors is not the same as considering someone a heretic or questioning the state of their soul. Fr. Seraphim remained polite in his discourses with Dr. Kalomiros, and appreciated many of his other writings and kept up correspondence with him on other issues. Regarding Lazar Puhalo, Fr. Seraphim specifically did not mention him by name nor make personal attacks when writing on the toll houses, but Puhalo was told by the Holy Synod to stop talking about them because he was making personal attacks.

in writings of Puhalo or those coming from his press he has accused Fr. Seraphim of being a Gnostic, a Nestorian, and a Monophysite.

What I'm getting at is that Fr. Seraphim seemed to set up a litmus test of Orthodoxy on issues like evolution (the scientific evidence is overwhelming, eventually this is going to look like arguing for a flat earth) or toll houses (a mere trifle). That's what I see as arrogant and misguided. Ultimately I think it is harmful to take pet theological issues and raise them to such levels of importance as he did. Furthermore his entire worldview was simply based on fantasies - Holy Russia never existed, so much of his personal philosophy might as well have been based on unicorns. From what I've read of Fr. Seraphim (and I think I've actually read all of his major books, plus the biography remasted) he was as adamant about the minutia of Holy Russia, Evolution and Toll houses as the important parts of Orthodoxy. It ultimately leads to the conclusion that if you reject any of of those minor things, the whole house of cards comes tumbling down. He lacked the finesse of a more refined theologian to clearly delineate that which was the core of Orthodoxy from the exterior decorations.

hmmm, i have found his attitude to be quite different than what you have described, but i suppose agree to disagree.

Pardon me, but outside of primarily convert circles, most of American Orthodoxy has been little influenced by Fr. Rose and his ideas, particularly as Nectarios describes such as Toll Houses are really not accepted by the Church as a whole. That being said, as many have noted, one can be considered saintly, even if one's ideas are a bit off - like St. Augustine. Who can deny the power of the story of his life and its influence upon the times in which he lived - and much of The City of God......So perhaps in time the same will be said of Fr. Seraphim.

Anyway, Holy Mother Russia has one thing over the Holy Roman Empire. Unlike the HRE which was neither Holy, nor Roman nor an Empire, at least HMR was Russian.

1. Will Moscow be happy to allow the Russian Church Abroad to add to the Canon of the Saints a man who was homosexual?

2. Fr Seraphim died with a curse on his lips according to Fr Alexey Young. It was against his long-time monastic brother Archimandrite Gleb Podmoshensky Given that not even saints are perfect, yet that is a strange way for any saint to pass into eternity.

There are many of us who already believe Fr. Seraphim is a saint. For those who would demand to know 'why?', we must be careful that we don't fall into the Western reasoning. That is to say that the Orthodox Church doesn't have a list of criterion and an investigation team to verify said list. But as for myself, and a great many others whom I have spoken with regarding his canonization, we feel it in our hearts. We pray to St. Seraphim of Platina to intercede for us and he does so. The life he lead was most exemplary because he devoted every pulse to preaching and teaching Patristics and the Holy Orthodox Catholic Church.

Holy St. Seraphim, pray for us sinners.

Agreed!

Selam

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"Whether it’s the guillotine, the hangman’s noose, or reciprocal endeavors of militaristic horror, radical evil will never be recompensed with radical punishment. The only answer, the only remedy, and the only truly effective response to radical evil is radical love."+ Gebre Menfes Kidus +http://bookstore.authorhouse.com/Products/SKU-000984270/Rebel-Song.aspx

His person should be canonized but not his teachings. Is there anyone who doubts his personal piety?

Piety? I think it depends on how much he knew of the shenanigans of Gleb Podmoshensky.

Can you explain this please? I have read that there was an unfortunate falling out between Father Seraphim Rose and Father Herman, but I'm not sure if this is true or not.

Selam

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"Whether it’s the guillotine, the hangman’s noose, or reciprocal endeavors of militaristic horror, radical evil will never be recompensed with radical punishment. The only answer, the only remedy, and the only truly effective response to radical evil is radical love."+ Gebre Menfes Kidus +http://bookstore.authorhouse.com/Products/SKU-000984270/Rebel-Song.aspx