I'm not here to be flooded with angry messages - just to debate rational and calm people.

"The holocaust" is a mind control program.
The more irrational and implausible the deeper it goes into the psyche.
Bypassing the filters of reason and logic.

People have been conditioned for half a century to "believe" this impossible saga.

The fact that the numbers do not add up, the fact that the dogma contradicts the laws of physics.

It is worthless propaganda.

It is a matrix from which are derived all sorts of subsequent control devices.
"Antisemitism", "Homophobia, Political correctness, racism, islamophobia... and more.
Any one of these control phrases will collapse an opponent of the control order in his tracks.
They all trace their roots back to the original word "holocaust".

The jews have managed to commandeer a whole region of the Middle East using this control device... "holocaust", like open sesame and doors will fly open.
The Palestinians can be driven from their land because of "holocaust".
Germany must pay $millions in handouts because of "holocaust".

You can't possibly beat anyone with arguments. You can only beat us by presenting evidence.

The burden of proof is upon those making an assertion. It is never the responsibility of anyone to prove that something does not exist, or did not happen. That is a primary axiom of science.

Nevertheless, I leave you with the following thoughts -

In order to accept the Holocaust, you need to first accept that the Germans behaved in an extremely atypical manner. They were a highly mechanised and technically advanced nation, yet they chose to use poison gas as a means of committing mass murder.

If you create ten rows of ten guillotines, you can murder 100 people in a second. There is no wastage of material after the installations have been built, no expense, and no danger to those carrying out the executions. On the other hand, using gas continually involves an expense of resources, it is extremely slow and cumbersome by comparison, and it involves a huge risk of loss of life for those carrying out the executions.

Why would the Germans do this?

Also, you have to accept that the Germans wasted resources in building concentration camps to house those about to be killed, and in transportation. With guillotines, it would have been possible to simply move the installations from area to area on trucks, carrying out the killings without the need to house anyone prior to the event, nor to create a mass of bodies in any one area. Most of this wastage of fuel, food and time would have happened while Germany was in desperate need.

You also have to accept that the laws of time and physics mean nothing, as there simply wasn't the time available to gas the numbers of people which are claimed to have been murdered. Even if gas chambers could be manufactured to murder tens of people at once, there is still a significant time delay between one use of the facility and a possible next use. This time factor is even more extreme in the case of the alleged disposal of the bodies by burning.

I'll keep this post short by omitting the physical evidence that rooms in concentration camps were used as morgues and for delousing to control typhus. That has been presented in detail elsewhere.

What will I accept as evidence? The following -

1) An authenticated German document proposing the gassing of humans in concentration camps, and other documents passing the resolution
2) An aerial reconnaissance photograph showing evidence of mass murders being carried out, in contrast to the many known to exist which show nothing
3) Evidence of just one autopsy from a concentration camp showing death by gas poisoning, or even a report by Germans captured and decoded by Bletchley Park which relates to killing by gas
4) A demonstration showing how camp facilities were able to process many more victims than is believed to be possible

No matter if the Jewish Holocaust happened or not, it is insignificant to the Holocausts the Bolsheviks committed; you are being imprisoned via the guilt complex the Zionists have imposed on us Whites since the event 'happened'

Get over yourself and start spending time researching the other more horrific events of history.

Liberty and rights are not given by government, they are given by God to His people.

Any attempt by government to either limit or take away any such liberty and rights either by law and/or by force, that government has become an unlawful and Treasonous entity in your land and therefore have become the evil terrorist enemy.

No such government is to be called or act as your “authorities” and you are not their "subjects".

They train your eyes to be fixed in other lands looking for the “boogieman”, you can’t see that the evil terrorist enemy is already inside our gates taking the seats in Washington D.C.

And your proof for this is what exactly--that lots of people think so? Back when everyone believed the world was flat, do you think it really was, or do you think the laws of physics were the same then as they are now?

I'm betting you're another libtard who is blithely unaware that the original Holocaust narrative was that most of the Jews were gassed with diesel exhaust, not cyanide. Are you aware that diesel engines were used for decades to pump water out of mines because they CANNOT gas anyone? No, I'm betting you didn't know that.

What you don't know about the Holocaust story would fill several thick volumes at least, and here you are lecturing us on how sure you are that it really happened, despite being physically impossible.

Some of you who have prophesised that I would never come back - being absent for a whole 12 hours, have seen their accusations come to naught.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fading Light

And your proof for this is what exactly--that lots of people think so? Back when everyone believed the world was flat, do you think it really was, or do you think the laws of physics were the same then as they are now?

I'm betting you're another libtard who is blithely unaware that the original Holocaust narrative was that most of the Jews were gassed with diesel exhaust, not cyanide. Are you aware that diesel engines were used for decades to pump water out of mines because they CANNOT gas anyone? No, I'm betting you didn't know that.

What you don't know about the Holocaust story would fill several thick volumes at least, and here you are lecturing us on how sure you are that it really happened, despite being physically impossible.

I'm not even going to respond to someone who personally attacks me. I included the political views not because I think I'm important but so you wouldn't use such Republican derogatory slang as "libtard" when I am not a liberal - which happens not to mean left wing in the rest of the world that isn't America.

Burden of proof is a good point. Good for religious arguments.

I'm not here to be flooded with angry messages - just to debate rational and calm people. So please in the future don't spaz out like a child and attack me personally.

To answer some individual points:

1) An authenticated German document proposing the gassing of humans in concentration camps, and other documents passing the resolution
2) An aerial reconnaissance photograph showing evidence of mass murders being carried out, in contrast to the many known to exist which show nothing
3) Evidence of just one autopsy from a concentration camp showing death by gas poisoning, or even a report by Germans captured and decoded by Bletchley Park which relates to killing by gas
4) A demonstration showing how camp facilities were able to process many more victims than is believed to be possible

1. To answer the first point, one as to understand the Nazi bureaucracy. The system, as Strasser put it, functions "like with Kings and Vassals" and there were many competing branches of service. Hitler was known to transmit his orders orally and mainly avoided ordering directly via written means orders to kill. On occasion this was not so:

The Commisar order, ordering all political attaches to military units to be shot out of hand:

Guidelines for the Treatment of Political Commissars

In the fight against Bolshevism it is not to be expected that the enemy will act in accordance with the principles of humanity or international law. In particular, the political commissars of all kinds, who are the real bearers of resistance, can be expected to mete out treatment to our prisoners that is full of hate, cruel and inhuman.

The army must be aware of the following:

1. In this battle it would be mistaken to show mercy or respect for international law towards such elements. They constitute a danger to our own security and to the rapid pacification of the occupied territories.

2. The barbaric, Asiatic fighting methods are originated by the political commissars. Action must therefore be taken against them immediately, without further consideration, and with all severity. Therefore, when they are picked up in battle or resistance, they are, as a matter of principle, to be finished immediately with a weapon.

In addition, the following regulations are to be observed:Operational Areas

1) Political commissars operating against our armies are to be dealt with in accordance with the decree on judicial provisions in the area of "Barbarossa." This applies to commissars of every type and rank, even if they are only suspected of resistance, sabotage or incitement to sabotage....

etc.

Instead it was his policy to achieve a means through the creation of ideological feeling, and this was deliberately vague, both because Hitler disliked technical details - he was not a very technical person, often blindly unaware that 'divisions' on his map were short of massive amounts of equipment and personnel.

As for the Holocaust itself there were others who hated Jews more than Hitler - particularly Himmler, the 'Reichsfuhrer SS'.

Although most orders given about the Holocaust were oral and deliberately vague, here you can see some of the things at the Wannsee conference in 1942.

I don't know why when the Germans were able to conceal the Wolfschanze so well they would fail to adequately cover up a gigantic plan of extermination in the supposedly 'civilised' continent of Europe. Anyone doubting how civilised people in such a place as Europe could act barbarically I suggest research the atrocities of the Peloponnesian war in supposedly civilised Ancient Greece.

Do you really think the Allies would do reconnaissance in Poland, far away from any Allied air bases, on a scale similar to France? It stands to reason that only a few photos have been captured of the camps - after all, no military or strategic targets of value compared to say heavy industry in German cities like Essen were present. If you were an air marshal of Britain concerned only with beating the enemy, for example, would you waste much time photographing camps way off in Poland instead of military factories? Probably not.

The murders themselves took place as you are probably aware - or not - in concrete rooms. What fool would try to gas someone to death out in the open? Aerial reconnaissance is not the only way of finding death in extermination camps.

3.

Many of you may not know this, but the killings at major camps for example Treblinka ceased well before they were liberated. Germans are nothing if not efficient and the bodies of victims who were gassed or shot were shortly after dug up again and cremated. In one camp, I believe Treblinka, about 800 "work Jews" were forced to do this task and upon realising that they would be finished off as soon as they finished, revolted and killed 16 Ukrainian and SS Guards. Most of them were killed by a larger search party sent out however a few hundred were able to escape to join the Polish resistance.

Put simply, all gassing operations had ceased by the near to the end of the war, and most prisoners who died from then on were killed by shootings, death marches westwards when they were forced out of their camp, or disease and starvation. It is a myth that most Holocaust victims were gassed, in fact a huge number died from shooting from firing squads by the Einsatzgruppen in Russia, death marches, deliberate maltreatment by beatings, lack of medical care for disease and starvation.

4.

A demonstration showing how camp facilities were able to process many more victims than is believed to be possible

This is a very odd statement.

First of all, you want a demonstration? You want me to reenact mass deportations to concentration camps or burning of bodies? That is not very feasible.

Who believes it to be possible? What number? Why? Again, more clarification is needed on this one.

Just because you may not be so efficient at completing tasks it does not mean the Germans could not be. Their military successes alone stand to testify that fact.

Other:

'In order to accept the Holocaust, you need to first accept that the Germans behaved in an extremely atypical manner. They were a highly mechanised and technically advanced nation, yet they chose to use poison gas as a means of committing mass murder.'

And some stuff about guillotines, quite valid points regarding efficiency.

Guillotines were certainly used, namely for execution purposes.

Some Catholic priests were executed in this manner in Hamburg for ascribing the Raid on Lubeck in 1942 to God's justice in this manner.

Poison gas was quite a modern and technically advanced weapon. It was only used first in WW1 in warfare.

Guillotines by contrast are somewhat outdated, dating from before the French Revolution. So I don't know what your point is there.

The main reason, I would suspect given the secrecy the Nazis imposed until the very last second (which also greatly aided in reducing rebellions, along with mixing nationalities to make communication harder) would be so that the prisoners did not know what they were facing until they began to choke, at least, not certainly. Guillotines cannot be disguised as showers, and would require too much individual effort on behalf of the executioners to be viable as a manner of killing so many.

Also, Himmler was very concerned about the mental health of his guards, and as such wished to spare them the 'close up' you might say, details of killing as much as he could, trying to make it an impersonal, removed and technical, logical process.

Many were naive. One pair of Roma girls looked at the towers of the camp in awe, as if they were visiting a tourist attraction, which prompted nearby SS and Ukrainian guards to keel over laughing.

As for the gas itself, Zyklon B is a pesticide, one which huge corporations which were heavily involved in the Holocaust such as I.G Farben being the main one would have been able to easily manufacture in huge quantities close to the camps.

Although guillotines may seem an ingenious idea to you I don't think the SS considered such methods viable for reasons described above, although as mentioned shooting like in the Babi Yar massacre outside Kiev was also common.

Also,

"Yes, I've read Beevor's books. I wasn't real impressed with his research. He tended to regurgitate (plagiarize???)other authors' works., such as Zhukov, Zaitsev and Grossman, who were all actual participants in the Battle of Stalingrad."

Regurgitate? Plagiarise? By citing secondary sources in an appropriate fashion from a variety of sources and authors? That is precisely what a good historian does. He was not able to fight the battle himself, why should he be prohibited from constructing a gripping narrative from his own summary of the battle as well as the accounts of others? That is called a history book.

That ends my first post, which has become much longer than I anticipated.