“Being clear about this true nature of thought is called "attaining the level of natural arising." At this point, there is no difference in any thought that may arise, because we see the nature of each thought to be emptiness, arising as the dharmakaya. Meditation could be defined as realizing the dharmakaya of the Buddha.” His Holiness the Gyalwang Karmapa Ogyen Trinley Dorje.

Sönam wrote:In lower vehicles cause gives effect, when conditions.In Dzogchen cause is effect, with no conditions.Thus, Dzogchen has never been separated from Dzogchenpa.

So you are free from birth, old age, sickness and death? That is cause and effect you know.

/magnus

Please read me, I did'nt say there is no cause and effect, I said "cause is effect" ...

I did misread you, sorry about that. But, as Jean-Luc told you a few times, you are confusing Dzogchen and the Dzogchen practitioner. I mean it is wonderful if you have such confidence in the Dzogchen view, but as we discussed in an other thread, view and meditation is inseparable in Dzogchen so confidence should be your capacity to be in the natural state. It isn't ever an intellectual idea. Saying "cause is effect" feels very intellectual for me because cause and effect is all the suffering and joy in this life. So what does this mean for you "cause is effect" in practical terms? Do you not suffer or feel joy anymore?

/magnus

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa

muni wrote:No separation Dzogchen-Dzogchenpa. practice= to "remain" in nondual awareness, no any practioner-practice separation can be. No self-spot taint wholeness, no striving can be. Other Yoga tool may help.Dzogchen rambling.

Yes yes, we all get this, but does this mean to you that Kuntuzangpo's Dzogchen teachings are untrue? Namely, that "there is one basis but two paths: rigpa and marigpa"? Is it not as Kuntuzangpo has said, that with marigpa, beings wander through the six realms?

I have here the words of Dzongzar Rinpoche on the wall, not that they are asked, still:

Alll compounded things are impermanentAll emotions are painAll things have no inherent existenceNirvana is beyond concept.

Once I learned swimming. Putted feet in the water, aah, so cold. Then I was pushed in the water and got to hear: chin up, legs so, arms so. Oh well i thought, cannot manage that all at once, cannot do that...struggling...blub blub blub. Than I said: stop talking now. Went back in the water, not following bla bla mind, just swimming aware in empty vastness of water.

To elaborate about how Dzogchen exactly is, is ma rigpa and competition in debate turns far away from relax nonduality. To be aware of emotions, thoughts, to be aware of their emptiness, than mind cannot get lost in following them and cannot rush out to an object in deluded action.

Dear Pema, I think there is no way to explain Dzogchen by these limited words. Like a recipe for bread is not filling a stomach.

Once I learned swimming. Putted feet in the water, aah, so cold. Then I was pushed in the water and got to hear: chin up, legs so, arms so. Oh well i thought, cannot manage that all at once, cannot do that...struggling...blub blub blub. Than I said: stop talking now. Went back in the water, not following bla bla mind, just swimming aware in empty vastness of water.

To elaborate about how Dzogchen exactly is, is ma rigpa and competition in debate turns far away from relax nonduality. To be aware of emotions, thoughts, to be aware of their emptiness, than mind cannot get lost in following them and cannot rush out to an object in deluded action.

Dear Pema, I think there is no way to explain Dzogchen by these limited words. Like a recipe for bread is not filling a stomach.

mutsuk wrote:Sönam, what is your point in trying to have others believe in your deluded view regarding the difference between Dzogchen and the Dzogchenpa ?

If you don't see and understand it, why don't you try to reflect on it ?

And BTW cause is not effect in Dzogchen, Dzogchen is beyond cause and effect (that's a definition of this Vehicle and state) but are you ?

Integrating (like you do) new concepts to the already perfect View of Dzogchen is a source of seriously bad karma... Maybe you should keep these rants for your forum, you'd delude less people there...

Listen Mutsuk,

You should care not to invest so much in certitudes, it does not bring "good karma" as you perceive it, just because you have choose to be part of one "very straight and progressive view" ... this is a very Bön point of view. It's ok, but don't shout to loud that you (and your master) are the only one to have understood all.Or you give (new) arguments (and the threat is already long) including sources and not only "opinions" that only reflect one side of a coin.It is the very first time that I hear "someone" sustain that to obtain the state of Dzogchen, you should "absolutely" go through "nine" very straight formal retreats ... and it's about more than 35 years that I follow such a path ! So once more take care for your karma young man.

Your unargumented personnal attacks prove by them self your narrow-minded and quite totalitarist unique point of view ... but I won't follow you on that kind of academic relation ship. I'm not so interrest in that, there is much better way to move ...

Your position is not new, it has always been so in history ... it's quite common, and these figures always react the same way

En bon entendeur salut !Sönam

By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.- Longchen Rabjam -

By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.- Longchen Rabjam -

Sönam wrote:Please read me, I did'nt say there is no cause and effect, I said "cause is effect" ...

I did misread you, sorry about that. But, as Jean-Luc told you a few times, you are confusing Dzogchen and the Dzogchen practitioner. I mean it is wonderful if you have such confidence in the Dzogchen view, but as we discussed in an other thread, view and meditation is inseparable in Dzogchen so confidence should be your capacity to be in the natural state. It isn't ever an intellectual idea. Saying "cause is effect" feels very intellectual for me because cause and effect is all the suffering and joy in this life. So what does this mean for you "cause is effect" in practical terms? Do you not suffer or feel joy anymore?

/magnus

We may agree on many point Magnus ... when you say confidence should be your capacity to be in the natural state I hear capacity to be in the natural state is confidence.... and certainly it's never an intellectual idea.

I'm not perfect, not at all, but Dzogchen is also a living experience ... it has also to do with confidence and the relation with "buddha nature". And certainly it's the sens of many words from masters like Longchen Rabjam.

And to answer precisely to your question what does this mean for you "cause is effect" in practical terms? it means that the effect is co-emergent with the cause, that there is no time/conditions differences between those two phenomena.

Sönam

By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.- Longchen Rabjam -

By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.- Longchen Rabjam -

Sönam wrote:Please read me, I did'nt say there is no cause and effect, I said "cause is effect" ...

I did misread you, sorry about that. But, as Jean-Luc told you a few times, you are confusing Dzogchen and the Dzogchen practitioner. I mean it is wonderful if you have such confidence in the Dzogchen view, but as we discussed in an other thread, view and meditation is inseparable in Dzogchen so confidence should be your capacity to be in the natural state. It isn't ever an intellectual idea. Saying "cause is effect" feels very intellectual for me because cause and effect is all the suffering and joy in this life. So what does this mean for you "cause is effect" in practical terms? Do you not suffer or feel joy anymore?

/magnus

We may agree on many point Magnus ... when you say confidence should be your capacity to be in the natural state I hear capacity to be in the natural state is confidence.... and certainly it's never an intellectual idea.

I'm not perfect, not at all, but Dzogchen is also a living experience ... it has also to do with confidence and the relation with "buddha nature". And certainly it's the sens of many words from masters like Longchen Rabjam.

And to answer precisely to your question what does this mean for you "cause is effect" in practical terms? it means that the effect is co-emergent with the cause, that there is no time/conditions differences between those two phenomena.

Sönam

Well, I have to disagree with you. If there is time, there is cause and effect. The cause will appear as soon as we act with body, speech or mind without recognizing the natural state. The effect will appear when there are the right circumstances, something which is unpredictable for all except realized Buddhas. For this reason anyone that can't rest in the natural state 24/7 have to accumulate merit. Why? Because if not, it is far from sure that they will be able to arrive at complete accomplishment. For example in order to receive direct introduction you have to have an immense amount of merit and that is just the beginning of the path. This all masters such as Longchenpa agree with.

By the way, mutsuk is a woman.

/magnus

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa

heart wrote:I did misread you, sorry about that. But, as Jean-Luc told you a few times, you are confusing Dzogchen and the Dzogchen practitioner. I mean it is wonderful if you have such confidence in the Dzogchen view, but as we discussed in an other thread, view and meditation is inseparable in Dzogchen so confidence should be your capacity to be in the natural state. It isn't ever an intellectual idea. Saying "cause is effect" feels very intellectual for me because cause and effect is all the suffering and joy in this life. So what does this mean for you "cause is effect" in practical terms? Do you not suffer or feel joy anymore?

/magnus

We may agree on many point Magnus ... when you say confidence should be your capacity to be in the natural state I hear capacity to be in the natural state is confidence.... and certainly it's never an intellectual idea.

I'm not perfect, not at all, but Dzogchen is also a living experience ... it has also to do with confidence and the relation with "buddha nature". And certainly it's the sens of many words from masters like Longchen Rabjam.

And to answer precisely to your question what does this mean for you "cause is effect" in practical terms? it means that the effect is co-emergent with the cause, that there is no time/conditions differences between those two phenomena.

Sönam

Well, I have to disagree with you. If there is time, there is cause and effect. The cause will appear as soon as we act with body, speech or mind without recognizing the natural state. The effect will appear when there are the right circumstances, something which is unpredictable for all except realized Buddhas. For this reason anyone that can't rest in the natural state 24/7 have to accumulate merit. Why? Because if not, it is far from sure that they will be able to arrive at complete accomplishment. For example in order to receive direct introduction you have to have an immense amount of merit and that is just the beginning of the path. This all masters such as Longchenpa agree with.

By the way, mutsuk is a woman.

/magnus

so young lady ...

If there is time, there is cause and effect ... I said "no time difference"And do not see one sentence where I disagree in what you said ... but accumulating merit does not mean that one have to practice nine retreat in such way, and so on !

The difference in the straight bönpo view proposed and buddhist view, is that for bönpo the progression, including intensively accumulate both merits and so on, is included in their Dzogchen' cycle ... which is the not the case for Buddhist (Nyigmapa) where there is 8 buddhists vehicles before ati. Therefore, what has not been realized before has to be within, and this is the reason the "Dzogchen cursus" is very progressive and straight. The buddhist approach is slightly different.

Sönam

By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.- Longchen Rabjam -

Sönam wrote:If there is time, there is cause and effect ... I said "no time difference"And do not see one sentence where I disagree in what you said ... but accumulating merit does not mean that one have to practice nine retreat in such way, and so on !

The difference in the straight bönpo view proposed and buddhist view, is that for bönpo the progression, including intensively accumulate both merits and so on, is included in their Dzogchen' cycle ... which is the not the case for Buddhist (Nyigmapa) where there is 8 buddhists vehicles before ati. Therefore, what has not been realized before has to be within, and this is the reason the "Dzogchen cursus" is very progressive and straight. The buddhist approach is slightly different.

Sönam

Not really, if you talk to a Nyingma monk you will receive more or less the same answer. A typical Longchen Nyingthig retreat spend a lot of time (up to 2 years) on the four mind changing and the five preliminaries which more or less cover the teachings on the Theravada and Mahyana as well as the lower Tantras. Then they will practice Mahayoga, Anuyoga and finally they will do the Atiyoga. So it is the common approach to pass through the nine yanas. Most westerners that done three-year retreat also did it like this.

About time, the experience of time is the experience of the gap between cause and effect. Like if you say the cause is like putting on a pair of very dark sunglasses the effect is that if you drive a motorcycle very fast in the night your are prone to have serious accidents. So the effect need some secondary circumstances, like a motorcycle and the night, as well as the cause to fully become an effect.

/magnus

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa

heart wrote:Not really, if you talk to a Nyingma monk you will receive more or less the same answer. A typical Longchen Nyingthig retreat spend a lot of time (up to 2 years) on the four mind changing and the five preliminaries which more or less cover the teachings on the Theravada and Mahyana as well as the lower Tantras. Then they will practice Mahayoga, Anuyoga and finally they will do the Atiyoga. So it is the common approach to pass through the nine yanas. Most westerners that done three-year retreat also did it like this.

This is exactly how things are and the reason why Sönam does not understand this is that he does not practice this Path, or if he thinks he does, he actually does not do it properly or how it must be done. It's very visible that he has a high opinion of himself, which is quite a big drawback for someone who intends to practice Dzogchen. Moreover, he's apparently mistaking me regularly for somebody else which is quite telling in itself. And BTW I'm not an academic as he thinks I am (not that this should matter...)

Listen Sönam, the fact that you constantly fail to distinguish Dzogchen and the Dzogchenpas means youd don't understand the Dzogchen View. And the fact that you distinguish the view of Dzogchen according to Bon and according to Nyingma is another demonstration that you don't know the View of Dzogchen. They View of Dzogchen in Bön and Nyingma is the same. Exactly the same.

The new arguments that you want Sönam have already been brought to you by JL but you fail to understand them. The quotes from Bonpo Dzogchen teachings should enlightened you but apparently they don't. I sincerely feel sorry for you because this is a very important source. And please, stop calling me Bônpo, my root-master is Nyingma, my practice is Nyingma and it's been like this since the beginning. It just happens that someone dear to me is Bônpo and that"s how I've come accross Bön teachings of Dzogchen. Do not resort to personal stuff. Keep it at the level of the discussion, old man, your avatar is already quite telling in itself no?