Stop kiting bats. My 25 man spent one full 4 hour night wiping to Tortos and we blamed everyone and everything. In the end, bat control and shell slowing was our problem. Kill shells, kick shells through bats, kill bats, kill Tortos. Also, assign two healers to stay on tanks full time, have the other 5 (we seven healed), heal only their groups. Put one healer in each group and teach them to trust their own healers. As soon as we assigned healing assignments, control became more apparent. We stopped dying at the third or forth quake and started seeing that we could do it. Also my 25 man kill Jin, Horridon and Council on the first night before the nerfs and then stonewalled on Tortos, so don't be so quick to just assume you're going nowhere. Work with your team and build that core understanding.

If progression is your goal, and you're in a guild that is only 3/12 so far, you probably should look for another guild. If just beating normal modes and maybe a few heroics is your goal, stick around. We're going to be in this tier for awhile.

You need to find a group you like raiding with and whose skills match your own. It's frustrating to do your bit on a boss and die to enrage because you were carrying people etc. Just so you know though, your attitude comes across as pretty selfish (mememe dkp no loot waa! etc)

people that quit a guild at the first time of trouble will never feel like a true member of any guild. you gotta go through the good AND the bad to be a valued member of any raid team in my books.

give ur guild time would be my advice. if others start to leave and u find urself not raiding at all / raiding with even worse people with no progress then its time to consider a new guild imo.

being one of the guys that stuck with the guild while u were struggling earns you respect in the long run. if you have 10 of these people in a single raid its great even with rubbish progress cause u know these people will put the time in to kill the boss eventually. been with my guild for over 3 years now and even our progress is pretty crap at 4/12 normal im enjoying it more than ever

or if u dnt like the people just leave. that'll end badly eventually anyway haha xD

Yes, quit the guild, it have been 3 weeks since the patch release, if you are not on heroics right now you better be playing at Hello Kitty online. A guild with 6/13 Hc would be the minimum you would have to accept if you are the good player you say you are. Anywhere else you are rushing bad players who watch the TV while you kill the bosses for them.

And try to loot before leaving, that will show them who really made the effort in than noob guild.

This tier is incredibly hard to jump into unless you had a decent amount of heroic gear from the prior tier.

It really is tough-- we're not in Cataclysm anymore. Don't let it get you down. Many people who raided in Dragon Soul are finding they aren't up to snuff for raiding in MoP, the reality of mechanically dense fights is beginning to hit people and they're burning out.

You can't bring that friend who is cool but doesn't learn quickly or do a lot of DPS into a normal mode raid right now-- they have to be benched for the skilled.

This tier is incredibly hard to jump into unless you had a decent amount of heroic gear from the prior tier.

It really is tough-- we're not in Cataclysm anymore. Don't let it get you down. Many people who raided in Dragon Soul are finding they aren't up to snuff for raiding in MoP, the reality of mechanically dense fights is beginning to hit people and they're burning out.

You can't bring that friend who is cool but doesn't learn quickly or do a lot of DPS into a normal mode raid right now-- they have to be benched for the skilled.

This. We had to bench a longtime raider who died everytime to Durumu maze. Many encounters this tier require a high amount of manual dexterity AKA pro Super Mario skills.

idd, this tier is more about learning the mechanics of the fight and much much less about doing the dps. if you know the mechanics, a lot of the times the enrage timer is trivial. horridon and council are horrible fights bcoz they are so punitive to your raid if they make mistakes, if you dont handle the adds on horridon properly you die, if you dont handle the empowered council elders properly you die, if you dont burn down the spinning turtles or vampiric bats fast enough you get overwhelmed and die etc. it really is a tier that focuses a lot on the individual skill level of your raiders and if you're raidmemebers dont learn fast enough or make mistakes then you'll end up wiping a lot. i do think that they have maybe made normals a bit too hard atleast if you're in a guild that doesnt raid heroics normally or in a very casual guild. with all this said, i must say im amazed that they are still 3/12 which means they are on tortos and he was fairly easy, atleast we killed him after about 1 hour but ofc i do 10 mans, and it might be a lot easier on 10 man than 25 man.