Big Vern wrote:There comes a point where it's best to give up on an individual.

Its better than joining the collective, or worse, even, the mob...

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Big Vern wrote:I have no problem with people swimming against the tide, but as a gambling man I would place my money on the majority if I had to bet .

You'd place your money ion the majority to be correct? To be moral/ethical? To be informed?

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Big Vern wrote:To make the best choice. Yes, I know there are many situations in history where that has not been the case. However, I'm thinking in terms of odds.

Interesting. There have been MANY situations in history where the majority failed to make the best choice. If I am ever put on trial as an individual, I pray that the legal system works as it is designed and that my Constitutionally-protected liberties and rights trump the collective intelligence of the majority!

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Big Vern wrote:To make the best choice. Yes, I know there are many situations in history where that has not been the case. However, I'm thinking in terms of odds.

Interesting. There have been MANY situations in history where the majority failed to make the best choice. If I am ever put on trial as an individual, I pray that the legal system works as it is designed and that my Constitutionally-protected liberties and rights trump the collective intelligence of the majority!

I've defended the guy in the past, but there's only so much benefit of the doubt I'm prepared to give. Surely there's a better poster child than GZ out there?

Big Vern wrote:I've defended the guy in the past, but there's only so much benefit of the doubt I'm prepared to give. Surely there's a better poster child than GZ out there?

Well, I'm sure that there are better people than GZ. There are always better people. But, that is not the standard that we use to adjudicate criminal cases.

GZ was put through a political trial to appease the mob with various agendas. IMO, that was completely wrong.

Yet, even today, many people have an impression of GZ that was fabricated almost completely by a deceitful media and those with axes to grind.

I find it odd that even with the benefit of the trial and all of the evidence known about the case, people still have such a hard on for GZ and believe that he "got away with murder".

GZ's life has been changed completely by the ordeal that was his persecution.. er... prosecution. Since the trial ended with his acquittal, his ex-wife and ex girlfriend have made accusations against him, none of which were credible and all of which have been withdrawn. That should count for something.

But, to many, it is illustrative that GZ seems to always attract trouble. I agree, he should probably leave and lay low. But, I also think it telling that none of the accusations have stuck. If he is so bad, I would have expected that he'd have stepped in some shit that doesn't wash off. Maybe he will, in the future.

Even the politicized DOJ has backed off from its ludicrous investigation into possible civil rights violations.

Yes, GZ has found himself in the center of some trouble. But, in the two big accusations, namely murder and civil rights violations, he has shown that those charges were bogus to begin with.

So, what we're left with are withdrawn accusations by an ex-wife and an ex-girlfriend. Dunno about you, but, those do not hold much water, IMO.

Now we have some guy who was stalking GZ a year ago take a shot at GZ. AFAIK, there is no evidence yet that GZ did anything to instigate this latest incident. But, I do know that the media and social activist axe-grinders have been "gunning" for GZ for a few years already. GZ has received many, many death threats.

I dunno. Until GZ does something that actually appears to be his fault, I'll continue to give him the benefit of the doubt, even if I do believe that there are better people/poster boys than he.

Big Vern wrote:Not everything in life is a legal debate.

Sure. But, in the context of GZ and his troubles, everything has been a legal debate... quite literally.

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Big Vern wrote:I've defended the guy in the past, but there's only so much benefit of the doubt I'm prepared to give. Surely there's a better poster child than GZ out there?

Well, I'm sure that there are better people than GZ. There are always better people. But, that is not the standard that we use to adjudicate criminal cases.

GZ was put through a political trial to appease the mob with various agendas. IMO, that was completely wrong.

Yet, even today, many people have an impression of GZ that was fabricated almost completely by a deceitful media and those with axes to grind.

I find it odd that even with the benefit of the trial and all of the evidence known about the case, people still have such a hard on for GZ and believe that he "got away with murder".

GZ's life has been changed completely by the ordeal that was his persecution.. er... prosecution. Since the trial ended with his acquittal, his ex-wife and ex girlfriend have made accusations against him, none of which were credible and all of which have been withdrawn. That should count for something.

But, to many, it is illustrative that GZ seems to always attract trouble. I agree, he should probably leave and lay low. But, I also think it telling that none of the accusations have stuck. If he is so bad, I would have expected that he'd have stepped in some shit that doesn't wash off. Maybe he will, in the future.

Even the politicized DOJ has backed off from its ludicrous investigation into possible civil rights violations.

Yes, GZ has found himself in the center of some trouble. But, in the two big accusations, namely murder and civil rights violations, he has shown that those charges were bogus to begin with.

So, what we're left with are withdrawn accusations by an ex-wife and an ex-girlfriend. Dunno about you, but, those do not hold much water, IMO.

Now we have some guy who was stalking GZ a year ago take a shot at GZ. AFAIK, there is no evidence yet that GZ did anything to instigate this latest incident. But, I do know that the media and social activist axe-grinders have been "gunning" for GZ for a few years already. GZ has received many, many death threats.

I dunno. Until GZ does something that actually appears to be his fault, I'll continue to give him the benefit of the doubt, even if I do believe that there are better people/poster boys than he.

Big Vern wrote:Not everything in life is a legal debate.

Sure. But, in the context of GZ and his troubles, everything has been a legal debate... quite literally.

Come on, we could just as easily fight Apperson's corner. Investigation is pending is it not?

I think there are probably mental health issues with that guy, but that's just conjecture as is calling him a stalker.

Big Vern wrote:Come on, we could just as easily fight Apperson's corner. Investigation is pending is it not?

Apperson is entitled to all of his rights and the State will have to prove its case, if it brings one. But, I don't see how we can just as easily fight [in] Apperson's corner.

While the investigation is indeed pending, just looking at the evidence we know of so far, namely that 1) Apperson claims that GZ brandished a gun, which Apperson somehow saw through GZ's heavily tinted SUV window, 2) Apperson fired a bullet through GZ's heavily tinted SUV window, and 3) there is no evidence or witness to support Apperson's claims, it appears that Apperson will have a more difficult time [than did GZ, where virtually all of the evidence supported GZ's claim] asserting his right to self defense.

Big Vern wrote:I think there are probably mental health issues with that guy, but that's just conjecture as is calling him a stalker.

I dunno. If the reports [that I have seen] of him stalking GZ are accurate, then it is not mere conjecture to label Apperson a "stalker". I know nothing, however, of his mental state.

But, more evidence may come out as the investigation continues. We'll see.

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Not everyone is commenting on the zimmerman good/bad aspect. We live in a changing world with twitter, Facebook and social websites like Reddit. Never before could the mob be incited to descend upon an individual the way it can today. The fact a media consultant was hired to create a false narrative, a very misleading one that GZ was a racist who attacked, assaulted and shot a little boy and it was so obvious that by not bring charges the police and the attorney must be racist too and it went viral and overnight GZ became public enemy number one, his parents got doxed and death threats ensued. Based on a pack of lies, and that doesn't seem to bother anyone?

The media took the bait hook line and sinker and even started editing tapes to make Zimmerman appear racist, all the while fueling the hate and anger on social media, and that doesn't bother anyone? Then the states attorney so eager to please the mob and secure a conviction withheld evidence from the defense.

Take the Freddie Gray incident recently, can you tell who's calling the shots, the mob or the states attorney? From where I'm sitting it looks like the mob (and they know it) and eventually if and when these cases go to trail, assuming the justice system works as it should most of if not all these charges are going to be dismissed. That's a problem when just a few hashtags incite a misinformed mob to riot and pressure an attorney to do their bidding, I guess Baltimore should prepare itself for more rioting and I'm sure whoever dismisses the charges will be labeled a racist and probably doxed too, lovely world we live in with vigilante justice at the hands of the mob. #fuckthepolice, move along move along nothing to see here, just the usual suspects supporting GZ.

Big Vern wrote:Come on, we could just as easily fight Apperson's corner. Investigation is pending is it not?

Apperson is entitled to all of his rights and the State will have to prove its case, if it brings one. But, I don't see how we can just as easily fight [in] Apperson's corner.

While the investigation is indeed pending, just looking at the evidence we know of so far, namely that 1) Apperson claims that GZ brandished a gun, which Apperson somehow saw through GZ's heavily tinted SUV window, 2) Apperson fired a bullet through GZ's heavily tinted SUV window, and 3) there is no evidence or witness to support Apperson's claims, it appears that Apperson will have a more difficult time [than did GZ, where virtually all of the evidence supported GZ's claim] asserting his right to self defense.

Big Vern wrote:I think there are probably mental health issues with that guy, but that's just conjecture as is calling him a stalker.

I dunno. If the reports [that I have seen] of him stalking GZ are accurate, then it is not mere conjecture to label Apperson a "stalker". I know nothing, however, of his mental state.

But, more evidence may come out as the investigation continues. We'll see.

We will see. However, if we just take Apperson's claims at face value then GZ was stalking him, GZ waved a gun at him, so he shot at GZ. Those are perfectly acceptable grounds for self defence under US law. It seems to me that the big difference with the Trayvon Martin case is Apperson had previous with GZ and therefore there could be premeditation.

Now, I don't believe any of Apperson's claims, but that's just my opinion. As you have pointed out GZ's tinted car windows alone are a big problem although it is possible to see movement through tinted glass - heavily or otherwise. The dead squirrel could be a red herring, but it's probably going to be brought up in court - should things go to court.

Of course, we wouldn't be debating any of this if little men weren't allowed to wave big guns around. But I don't think that's the narrative you want to hear . Oh, and I am on record supporting the right of Americans to choose to bear arms before you think I am attacking your constitutional rights. But, obviously, if they didn't we wouldn't (although GZ would have probably got his skull caved in). It's one of those cases that doesn't seem to happen anywhere else.

Big Vern wrote:We will see. However, if we just take Apperson's claims at face value then GZ was stalking him, GZ waved a gun at him, so he shot at GZ. Those are perfectly acceptable grounds for self defence under US law.

Each of the elements of a self-defense claim must be exist for the claim to succeed. If the State can disprove even just one of the elements, the claim of self-defense fails.

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Mick wrote:Not everyone is commenting on the zimmerman good/bad aspect. We live in a changing world with twitter, Facebook and social websites like Reddit. Never before could the mob be incited to descend upon an individual the way it can today. The fact a media consultant was hired to create a false narrative, a very misleading one that GZ was a racist who attacked, assaulted and shot a little boy and it was so obvious that by not bring charges the police and the attorney must be racist too and it went viral and overnight GZ became public enemy number one, his parents got doxed and death threats ensued. Based on a pack of lies, and that doesn't seem to bother anyone?

*No idea what you are rambling on about, Mick...

* I'm joking, of course.

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