Quote: Stref: the sin of presumption, of inventing words which are not from God, does not go away on conversion. can it be taken for granted that as christians we walk in the Spirit? look at our fruit. we clearly dont, hence years of training by the Spirit so that we can even begin to do that.

Steve, I think you need to stop making the assumption that everyone is like you in their walk with Christ. Many were not atheists as you were--and still are sometimes?

Many did not get drawn into the heresy of the charismatic movement, because they read and understood the Scriptures by God's mercy. Your experiences are not the standard to measure truth, and another's love for God and obedience to Him.

It's presumptuous to attribute to everyone your disbelief of God and the Scriptures and what they mean to a believer.

Someone who comes to Christ becomes a new creature. And they begin their walk with Him. For some, trusting Him is easier than for others. Learning trust and love of Him can be instantaneous or it can take some time to understand who God is and His love for us. Some walk a steady walk and others struggle and have what seems like more trials. But all walking with Him know Him as Savior and Lord, are being refined, knowing it will take our lives to be complete in Him. That doesnt mean we don't grow and change and mature in Him. Certainly the apostles showed that growth.

We love HIm because He first loved us.

1Jn 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
19 We love him, because he first loved us.

Quote:the bible does not show the years spent in obscurity the prophets had while being prepared and trained by God, but you would have me believe they were not? even the greatest prophet himself, the Son of God, spent years in obscurity before burstiing on the scene age about 30

Your opinion is just that-opinion. The Scriptures tell us the prophets were faithful men of God. God chose to use them and many were called and followed God as small children. Some were recognised by other prophets such as Zacharias, concerning John the Baptist. (Luke 1:5-1:67)

Jesus was not like the prophets---He knew who He was and His mission even as a child. He IS the Spirit of prophecy.

Luke 2:42-49 And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast. 43. And when they had fulfilled the days, as they returned, the child Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem; and Joseph and his mother knew not of it. 44. But they, supposing him to have been in the company, went a day's journey; and they sought him among their kinsfolk and acquaintance. 45. And when they found him not, they turned back again to Jerusalem, seeking him. 46. And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions. 47. And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers. 48. And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing. 49. And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?

The testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy. That means it is Truth.

Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

The prophets are subject to the prophets, hence they would know the truth of what was spoken as coming from God, according to the prophecies found within the Scriptures. It's not by guess or wishful thinking or adding a disclaimer or going to a "prophets school". God schooled the prophets in His time in His way for His purposes. Just as He teaches us for His purposes.

1Co 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

No one can please God without faith--which comes from Christ---and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. One cannot please God if not walking in the Spirit. To be carnally minded is to live for the flesh and is death. When you live for Christ, you walk in the Spirit, and seek His will be done.

Romans 8:3-11 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4. That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Romans 8:12-17 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17. And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

You have this attitude that no one actually seeks Gods will or serves Him or can. That is false and would mean the apostles--our example of living for Him---never lived for Him either.

We can't live for Him in the flesh on our own. We have no righteousness in ourselves. But in Christ, living for Him and walking with Him is part of trusting Him and loving Him. And knowing that He is the one that gives all we need to serve God and obey Him. It's not based on our abilities--its knowing its about His abilities.

Vic
SeekGod.ca

3John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.
Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.