I'm not talking about hanging your draws up on a route and flinging yourself at it until it yields over the course of a couple of days or even weeks-I'm wondering about some specific places that seem to have sprouted enough webbing to fill a good-sized mattress-stuff that isn't intended to come down. Chain draws, bleached-out sun rotten tat, swanky stuff made in someone's garage like at Red Rocks' the Gallery, etc. The reason I'm asking is that on the East Coast certain ultra-steep areas such as RRG's Motherlode had fixed draws, but the routes were so popular that anything a little manky seemed fixed almost immediately. Out west there are numerous caves that have the 14s covered with draws even if no one touches the route for years, and recently, I've been seeing permanent draws on moderate vertical routes. Any opinions/wisdom to share? As far as sport climbing goes, I'm puzzled by permanent draws on vertical, moderate routes. Where I come from, those are called "free draws," and they don't last long.

IMO permanent draws are unsightly and unnecessary. I have never understood their use. I suppose on massively overhanging 5.14 routes they may make some sense, but they're still an eyesore. Now I can't climb at that level and never will but how can someone "redpoint" a line with permanent draws? I hate that they misuse the term in the climbing mags when referring to such ascents. I say if you can't hang the necessary gear you can't redpoint it, or you can climb it solo.

It is especially troubling to hear that permanent draws are showing up on moderate lines. I haven't seen this anywhere and I hope it isn't a trend.

I agree-there is a growing trend around Las Vegas to just cover the wall with draws. I've seen this at spots like Cathedral in Utah as well-virtually every route, even 10s and 11s with huge holds, positive clip stances, and constant rests have permadraws. Potosi's new, vertical, chipped moderates received permadraws right after they were installed. The BLM were up there and estimated 159 or so fixed draws just in the cave. And I guess if it bothered me that much, I probably would take them. I posted more to see if this seems bizarre or absurd to anyone else. I work too hard (and too infrequently) to really think about leaving a *few* sets of draws around. I know that Joe Brooks, Yaniro, and so on were sponsored heavily and wouldn't miss a few hundred bucks in draws-and someone around here must be sponsored by Chain-a-rama, because I'm pretty sure no one's cutting back on their weed intake to afford permachains at Robber's Roost and the Hood. One of the things I like about this site is the ability to gather information and opinions from around the country. I appreciate any input that you guys have on permadraws. Incidentally, the BLM tells me that they are prohibited regardless on their land.

I am curious about what the current Access Fund policy is on the matter. It is interesting to hear that BLM has a policy regarding the type of fixture allowed to attach a rope to a "legal" bolt. If chains are BLM acceptable for lowering/rappel anchors, why wouldn't chain draws be ok legally? Personally, I can only see leaving draws on a climb that is being "worked" for an FA and then only until the route is completed. To me, "fixing" a "permadraw" is appropriate only under certain circumstances. One, is super steep routes in heavily forested areas where a swing while cleaning is more dangerous than leading the climb. Another, would be on routes that are so steep the bolts would have to be excessive just to be able to get into the rock to reach each bolt as you "tram" down. Let's say 5 camo'd chain draws instead of 12 bolts with shiny hangers every 2 feet. But then again, if your partner would just follow the damn thing, instead of insisting that everyone must lead each route, the draws could get cleaned the "old fashioned" way.

Rick, your last line says it all. If someone just follows the route, permadraws aren't necessary. I love sport climbing but this is one situation where I think sport ethics maybe crosses a line that shouldn't be crossed. Matt - yes, it's worse; a collection of chain draws plus a chain anchor, as opposed to a collection of bolts plus a chain anchor. Don't get me wrong - this isn't a mission for me. Just tossing my $0.02 in response to the posting.

"someone around here must be sponsored by Chain-a-rama, because I'm pretty sure no one's cutting back on their weed intake to afford permachains at Robber's Roost and the Hood." That was a good one, Killis. I got a laugh out of that line. Other than cave routes, I never saw much point in permadraws.

Matt - yes, it's worse; a collection of chain draws plus a chain anchor, as opposed to a collection of bolts plus a chain anchor. Don't get me wrong - this isn't a mission for me. Just tossing my $0.02 in response to the posting.

Bill, No harm done, everyone has their own opinion. Maybe I came off sounding a little

I'm really not an advocate for fixed draws, I've just always thought there was no harm in equipping ultra steep routes with them. I have yet to run into slabby-to-slightly overhung routes with permadraws yet but I'm sure I'll bust a nut laughing when I do. Can you imagine Magic Bus wall at Red Rocks with permadraws?

Matt - yes, it's worse; a collection of chain draws plus a chain anchor, as opposed to a collection of bolts plus a chain anchor. Don't get me wrong - this isn't a mission for me. Just tossing my $0.02 in response to the posting.

Bill, No harm done, eveyone has a right to their own opinions. Maybe I came off sounding a litle brash.

I don't really see the point of permadraws unless on uber-steep routes. I have yet to see permadraws on vertical/slab climbs but I'm sure I'll bust a nut laughing when I do. Can you imagine fixed draws on Magic Bus Wall at Red Rocks?!

Now I can't climb at that level and never will but how can someone "redpoint" a line with permanent draws? I hate that they misuse the term in the climbing mags when referring to such ascents. I say if you can't hang the necessary gear you can't redpoint it, or you can climb it solo.

For that matter, how can someone "redpoint" a route that has bolts? Bolts are clearly pre-placed pro. All sport climbs are pink points. To match the lycra, eh? :)

I thought more to match the pink panties and accessorized bows. It's kind of sad, really-after climbing at the Red I became really sold on sport climbing. Done right, it's an amazing, uplifting way to spend your time, and if the bolts are camouflaged and the route put up in good style, there's really very little to complain about. I guess moving to Las Vegas has showed me the other side of it. I never really met the obsessed, drill-crazy, hostile types till I moved here. But Joe Brooks is the example for these guys: chip til some 15 year old outclimbs you and then walk off sulking and never bother to pull your draws off or carry your ropes out. Quit climbing because Dave Graham and Chris Lindner are better than you-there's a theory. If that was the case for everyone, those guys would be getting day jobs and having to make their own shoes out of tire-rubber, Potrero-local style.

I don't sport climb much but when I do I have to admitt its fun and I like to get on the super steep. So whats my .02? If its not going to be an access issue(piss off land managers) and if they are chains(so they don't weaken) then their great. Most of the sport areas you will see them at the chalk on the walls stands out a lot more then some camaflauged chains. So where are they appropriate? Places where you won't piss off land managers and where it is super steep. Ratings don't really matter so much as the steepness does. If you disagree with this then let me ask you how many totally overhung routes have you tried to clean. Lets say the route is 60 ft long and you end up 40 ft behind the belayer from when you started. If someone goes up to clean it and falls after cleaning the first few bolts then they have to get lowered back down (because they can't get back on the route with out some monumental effort or prussiks, which after doing this they will probably be too spent to finish the route). So now the only way to get back on the climb is to relead it at the beginning because if you don't and try toproping it without the first few bolts clipped you take a grounder. So now you have to relead it and still have to get it cleaned. Yeah, I know some of you will just say that I am lazy but maybe one go on the route is all you can do that day. So thats my .02, let the bashings begin.

Matt - thanks. I think we're really not far apart on our thinking. Let's hope we never see permadraws on the Magic Bus - icchh. That would probably be the end of legal climbing anywhere at the first three pullouts!

Tavis - point well-taken. I guess it's really just a matter of degree. On a "clean" trad line the leader sets pro, may or may not hang a runner, then clips the rope. On a sport route, he hangs the draw then clips the rope. With permadraws, he still has to clip the rope. All three scenarios require doing something with one hand for protection while at a stance that may or may not be tenuous, and on the routes with permanent draws all the stances are likely to be tenuous. So I guess the term "redpoint" is situational. Nice touch with the lycra comment, ha ha.

duffy dog - no bashing necessary. You also make a good point. I've TR'd a couple overhanging .11's that are nowhere near as extreme as the example you gave, but nevertheless, one fall and it's back to the ground to start the whole sequence over.

Oh well, just don't want to see the great outdoors start looking like the inside of a climbing gym...

Ah, the fun never ceases. I also am blowing up Castleton Tower to shoot a video for my new band, Internet Hate Squad. I think the BLM can be a pain but they are a fact of life and I prefer to work with them than to get areas closed to climbing.

This discussion sounds like a bunch of die hard trad climbers with old school ethics agreeing with each other. My favorite comments are the ones that begin with "I like sport climbing as much as the next guy" and end with "if you can't hang your own draws then you aren't redpointing the route."

I for one don't have a problem with permanant draws in areas where that is the standard (and that standard can be one established as the area is developed or it can be one that evolves over time).

When I'm trad climbing I enjoy placing the gear -- for me it is part of the puzzle of ascending a trad line. For example, working the Evictor or the Wasp, each gear placement actually becomes part of the beta/moves for the climb, as in those cases the gear placements are often just as strenuous as the hardest actual moves.

But when I'm sport climbing, I want my entire focus to be on the movement. Clipping draws is a distracting necessity because the other two options (soloing or top roping) don't appeal to me. In areas like Rifle, I enjoy the presense of fixed draws. Incidentally, if you can accept the presence of draws on 13's and 14's, but are wondering why many of the 11's and 12's there have draws, I would venture that there are people who equip both their projects and their warmups with draws so that they can project efficiently. If this sounds silly to you, try working on a single route for months on end and you'll understand.

Would you argue that one of the few climbers who has sent 5.15 on fixed draws should "get stronger" so he can hang the draws? If not, then you have no right to say someone who just sent their first 5.13a on fixed draws needs to get stronger so they can hang them. For that matter, you have no right to denigrate someone's style of ascent on any grade.

Let people climb the way they want to climb. Encourage other climbers to climb the way they want to climb. If you're inspired by "better style" then seek out climbs that suit your needs.

As far as terminology (redpoint vs. pinkpoint), yes, by the technical definition of the term most hard redpoints are actually pinkpoints... but if you don't realize that these terms are interchangeable these days, you're still living in the 80's. In fact, most hard trad climbs are specifically reported as "gear placed on lead" to elaborate on the style.

Lastly, going up there and stealing fixed draws in the name of "cleaning up an eyesore" or justifying them as "booty," is bullshit. That's just a great way to alienate other climbers and create divides in our community. If your concern is access, then there are TONS of ways to invest your energy that will benefit ALL climbers (cleaning chalk for example).

Perma???? Unless they are welding the gates shut that shit is booty!!! Cash in if you can get to em. Fuck man, you leave it, don't expect it to be there when you come back.

No, that would make you a thieving asshole. The occasional draw or bail biner on a route is booty, because the person either forgot it or used it to bail. A route equipped with draws means someone left them there on purpose. Feel free to clip them but don't STEAL them. I can't believe I have to type this out. You're part of the reason people don't post about their cave crags on the internet.

Draws left on a route are an eyesore that is unnecessary for a safe ascent anyway you look at them. They also seem to atract attention sometimes leading to access issues. They were probably born in a climbing gym and need to stay there in my opinion. Of course, I'm just an over the hill climber who grew up in an era of chalk use being suspect and clean-climbing being "The Standard"

Personally I don't like seeing fixed draws. That being said, unless there is an access issue, it doesn't seem like that big of a deal.

What bothers me more is the dumbing down of our climbing jargon by accepting that a pink point is a red point. Does this really matter? Of course not. Do many people consider them to be the same thing? Yes.

Isn't the whole point of language to be able to express different ideas and to make distinctions? It is definitely harder to red point than pink point. To call a pink point a red point is a slight to those who actually red pointed it.

What bothers me more is the dumbing down of our climbing jargon by accepting that a pink point is a red point. Does this really matter? Of course not. Do many people consider them to be the same thing? Yes. Isn't the whole point of language to be able to express different ideas and to make distinctions? It is definitely harder to red point than pink point. To call a pink point a red point is a slight to those who actually red pointed it.

Oh yes. To say you redpointed something that you really pinkpointed is like spitting a giant loogie in the faces of those strong men who came before you and clipped draw to bolt. They must be rolling in their graves, or at least rolling whereever the hell they are now.

Anyone who climbs hard sport will tell you pre-hung draws are acceptable for a lead. No one who actually projects sport routes feels the need to place their draws on lead every time they go for the route! The pinkpoint/redpoint terminology is archaic with regards to sport climbing. I'm sorry if that offends your trad-based "place gear on lead" sensibilities, but we're not talking about trad climbing, we're talking about clipping bolts.

Also, draws left on very overhanging routes have their place. There are some places where this might not be appropriate, but there are other places that get very little, probably none, non-climber traffic. It's pretty nice to have draws pre-hung, both for the person projecting the route, and for other people that want to jump on it without having to worry about getting to the top or leaving a bail biner. It all depends on the situation, obviously it's not worth losing access over, but there are some places where that's probably not much of an issue.