My biggest problem would be is Fiora even better than Rebecca, let alone a tier above her? Just at a glance I'd actually side with Rebecca since Fiora's concrete durability is barely better than Lyns and Fiora's jointime offense also kind of stinks.

sPortsman wrote:My biggest problem would be is Fiora even better than Rebecca, let alone a tier above her? Just at a glance I'd actually side with Rebecca since Fiora's concrete durability is barely better than Lyns and Fiora's jointime offense also kind of stinks.

Fiora also has awesome flier utility, and is one of the few physical units who can build enough Res to take on a lot of the enemies in Genesis and Cog of Destiny. I hardly think being locked to 2 range all game and only really having good offense near/at promotion is better than that.

I do agree with the gap closing, but I also mentioned on Serenes that your level for Florina is too low. She'll probably come out of LM at 9-10 so that gives her 15, 16, 16x, and 17 to level up even more. Your stat comparison also left out a Lyn support, which takes a mere 2 turns for C.

Lyn mode means the durability gap isn't nearly as big as it seems due to Florina having nearly no competition of the stat boosters there. Also keep in mind that a player who intends to use Florina for combat and utility is likely to want to give her uncontested items that fix her major flaws. This means that Florina is going to have a semipermanent +2 STR and +7 HP lead on top of whatever Fiora gets.

As for competition... Matthew can get the stat boosters to be combat-capable for the one chapter in which it matters, but having a combat-capable thief for one chapter is beaten by having a combat-capable flier for a whole bunch of chapters. Lyn can make use of them as well (especially the Angelic Robe), but once again is going to be iffy in combat anyway, and she gets Bows on promotion, which helps her durability. Power-wise, the Mani Katti gives her more than enough on most stuff she has trouble killing.

So we've got Florina with the Lyn Mode stat boosters. To be conservative, let's argue Florina at level 10 by the time she joins up- level 8 when she arrives, with one wtfterrible chapter (join chapter, ballistae suck), one decent chapter, one chapter where she's night useless (What's she doing to the port of badon superpirates?) and one chapter that shines (the boat chapter in which she can keep the asshole pegs off your back). So she's level 10, with +7 HP and +2 STR. (C_M, don't forget that you agreed her getting these stat boosters is reasonable).

It's pretty easy to see that at join time, Florina is pretty much destroying Fiora. The HP from the Angelic Robe gives her more concrete durability over time since Fiora is only outstripping her on Res, and only slightly.

(note that this doesn't take into account supports- i'd assume A lyn but i'm not sure what Fiora's reasonable supports are and I don't feel like going and investigating them)

Okay, so the gap has closed a little bit... except Florina still has the durability advantage due to significantly better HP versus a negligible difference in defenses. The Strength still stands out as a sticking point, and Florina is evading better due to her significantly higher luck.

So Florina gets flyer utility, an extra 4 chapters of availability (including one where she kicks ass), and is significantly better as soon as Fiora joins, even playing conservatively. The only real difference is the 1 CON that weighs pegs down, but once you hit Falcoknight, Swords are an option, which helps mitigate that.

@SDS: It's more or less still proving my point. The only difference here is the extra buff in Str, which I admit is significant, but how significant? Also I didn't say that the Angelic Robe is 100% free, but the Energy Ring might.

In any case, it comes down to whether or not Florina gets the LM stat boosters, because it's essentially impossible to say that the tier gap is unwarranted with them.

In that case, who's actually vying for the LM stat boosters? Angelic Robe is the one that's most contested, because outside of Matthew and maybe Lyn there's nobody really for the Energy Ring to go to.

So we've got five people mainly vying for the Angelic Robe- Lyn, Florina, Matthew, Erk, and Lucius. Lucius and Erk have the crucial range advantage, and Erk is actually not incredibly frail, especially on the HP side. Matthew needs both it and the Energy Ring to be combat-useful for the one chapter that he actually needs to see combat, and in the long run that ends up being largely wasted since thief combat = lol especially with the fell contract coming so late.

Lyn's actually got some merit for both of them, since she needs the increased Strength and HP to be able to do anything on the front line. However, the only enemies she should have trouble beating for the most part are Cavaliers and Armor Knights, which lose handily due to Mani Katti. After promotion, Lyn also gets Bows, which gives her range up on Florina.

Meanwhile, Florina is going to be your only flyer for all of LM and (if you use her over Fiora) most of main story. There's no arguing that her durability is pretty ass, given bad bases and growths. However, the Angelic Robe makes it much easier for her to actually accomplish things, as it makes it much easier for her to avoid random KOs, especially from the early bows/ballistae. She can also use the durability for taking on some of the early mercs and cavaliers that show up on the joining chapter, while even with the Robe, Lyn isn't having a fun time against most of the enemies in the join chapter and the next one.

tl;dr: Florina needs them to do her job effectively and be a decent flier, whereas all other competitors will be essentially fine without them.

Red Fox of Fire wrote:As mentioned before, Rebecca > Fiora is the one I have a difficult time seeing.

Red Fox of Fire wrote:Fiora also has awesome flier utility, and is one of the few physical units who can build enough Res to take on a lot of the enemies in Genesis and Cog of Destiny. I hardly think being locked to 2 range all game and only really having good offense near/at promotion is better than that.

Red Fox of Fire wrote:As mentioned before, Rebecca > Fiora is the one I have a difficult time seeing.

Red Fox of Fire wrote:Fiora also has awesome flier utility, and is one of the few physical units who can build enough Res to take on a lot of the enemies in Genesis and Cog of Destiny. I hardly think being locked to 2 range all game and only really having good offense near/at promotion is better than that.

Make up your mind. >_>

What are you talking about? Both of those say the same thing in the end.

I'm not sold on anyone else really needing the Lyn Mode boosters. She gets them for the same reason that Marcus can afford to get the Speedwing- it's an item that has very little competition that lets him actually do his job. Lyn is going to be ass either way, Matthew is never going to be combat-efficient, Sain and Kent are already durable enough, Lucius and Erk have solid power, and range removes the real need for durability (though Erk isn't on the too terribly frail side).

If there's an actual solid argument for anyone else getting the boosters other than "giving them to matthew makes chapter 11 suck less", I'll probably drop this. But I can't see why you would give them to units whose combat will be shaky either way, when you can give them to a unit that really needs them, and is going to be extremely useful for a long time with them due to flyer utility.

EDIT: I'm not saying anything about Rebecca > Fiora, I just think that the advantage that Florina has over Fiora with the Lyn Mode boosters (that I assume she gets due to her ability to put them to good use) warrants a full tier gap.

Last edited by Seven Deadly Sins on Sun Nov 22, 2009 2:44 am; edited 1 time in total

According to what was talked about on IRC, Florina's performance on Ch. 16 when given the Angelic Robe will even out with this one chapter advantage anyhow, or at least partially depending on how much weight is put on Ch. 11.

Seven Deadly Sins wrote:I'm not sold on anyone else really needing the Lyn Mode boosters. She gets them for the same reason that Marcus can afford to get the Speedwing- it's an item that has very little competition that lets him actually do his job. Lyn is going to be ass either way, Matthew is never going to be combat-efficient, Sain and Kent are already durable enough, Lucius and Erk have solid power, and range removes the real need for durability (though Erk isn't on the too terribly frail side).

If there's an actual solid argument for anyone else getting the boosters other than "giving them to matthew makes chapter 11 suck less", I'll probably drop this. But I can't see why you would give them to units whose combat will be shaky either way, when you can give them to a unit that really needs them, and is going to be extremely useful for a long time with them due to flyer utility.

EDIT: I'm not saying anything about Rebecca > Fiora, I just think that the advantage that Florina has over Fiora with the Lyn Mode boosters (that I assume she gets due to her ability to put them to good use) warrants a full tier gap.

I'm pretty sure Marcus is not assumed to get a Speedwing.

Also, Lyn is locked to one range until promotion. That alone describes someone who wants an Angelic Robe. Florina may use it better in the end, but it is in no way free.

I can understand favoritism, but considering that the Angelic Robe gives Florina way more combat viability than Lyn due to the giant rush of lances and swords that roll up and cause problems for Lyn means that she's going to be retardedly frail either way. However, Florina is much more likely to be near combat due to flight letting her ignore terrain and her higher MOV. Florina is capable of using Javelins to chip in a pinch, but she can't do it unless she has someone to trade-equip for her due to how much they destroy her speed.

Also, I don't know why I assumed speedwings for Marcus (outside of maybe something C_M said on IRC), so ignore that if I'm simply misinformed.

I am aware of that, and there are a couple of times that she can use it for unrespondable chip (mainly due to her flight), but the Angelic Robe helps her not be locked to simply flying around for chip.

Not if you can guarantee she won't be attacked or you can safely trade.

Which pretty much makes increased durability at the expense of somebody's turn no matter what.

Not at all. It's easily possible for the unit trading to be in a position where they can attack an enemy after trading. Or it could be that that unit has no enemies to attack and nothing better to do.

Some enemies in this game are so slow she'll still double.

I highly doubt this is always the case. She already has basically 5 base speed simply from equipping Iron. She'll need to be level 15-16 to show ability to double 5-6 AS enemies with Javelin.

I thought "some" meant it clearly isn't always the case...

I am aware of that, and there are a couple of times that she can use it for unrespondable chip (mainly due to her flight), but the Angelic Robe helps her not be locked to simply flying around for chip.

It does the same for Lyn. I'm not denying that Florina is probably the best for the Robe, it's just that the gap is not very big so there's an opportunity cost with taking it.

Glancing over enemy stats, the only enemies she should be capable of doubling with a Javelin are armors before level 15-16.

Not at all. It's easily possible for the unit trading to be in a position where they can attack an enemy after trading. Or it could be that that unit has no enemies to attack and nothing better to do.

Taking account flyer utility likely putting her on different paths than most units, this seems less likely. When fighting in groups, her chipping is more likely, but not something I could count as not being locked to melee most of the time.

This is especially notable in Ch18, where she can spend a fair chunk of her time hanging out in the water ripping opposing Pegs to pieces. The Angelic Robe makes her shine especially well there, where she's doubling Steel-wielding pegs, potentially ORKOing them, and not getting 2RKOed in return. Considering that those guys are real douchebags when they spawn behind your squishies and you're in such an enclosed space, being able to send a unit out to reliably deal with them is golden.

It's probably not so clear here, but everyone gets a benefit from the Robe with their durability. As for the Str ring... I'd have to seriously look a enemy stats. All I know is Matthew does benefit with it (when I played HHM he did).

It's probably not so clear here, but everyone gets a benefit from the Robe with their durability.

Are they the best users of it? All you did was list off their HP after they took it and call them more durable.

I don't know if Florina should get BOTH LM items, but her getting Angelic Robe is definitely something I agree with since it'll allow her to ferry units with more freedom to move towards enemies, and most other characters do just fine without it (besides Lyn).

After talking on IRC, I'm for no gap, but Fiora being at the bottom of Upper Mid due to the Angelic Robe having Florina outclass her entirely. Gap is unwarranted because using Florina does not exclude using Fiora, especially since multiple fliers is never a bad thing. Also, Florina-Fiora support is fast, and the two of them are likely to be together for much of their time.

The only thing left to reason is if Rebecca > Fiora. If Fiora doesn't rise above Rebecca, then the issue becomes whether or not Rebecca is Upper-Mid material.

Too lazy to make an argument right now, but what makes Rebecca > Fiora? That seems weird to say the least seeing how useful flying is in this game and how a multitude of enemies makes a 2 range lock significantly worse.

I dunno what to say about Rebecca really. Her forced period is probably her worst period, but it's the class that makes me think twice about it. Now, keep in mind I am not bashing on every single unit beause they lack 1 range, but in this game the enemies are more quantity than quality. In other words, Enemy Phase is much more flexible than the Player Phase. Aside fom deciding if her forced period is a negative, would her lack of 1-range in a game that has >30 enemies on some maps qualify as a penalty toward her rising.

In a game where much of the action takes place on enemy phases (because of how damn easy it is to one round fail enemies), I think that Rebecca's class may hold her back. If RROF wants to make a case for her, then I encourage her to do so.

IOS wrote:In a game where much of the action takes place on enemy phases (because of how damn easy it is to one round fail enemies), I think that Rebecca's class may hold her back. If RROF wants to make a case for her, then I encourage her to do so.

...Didn't I say, like, three times that Rebecca > Fiora is what I'm not seeing?

Back on topic, I think that Fiora in at least the bottom of Upper Mid seems to be generally agreed on. Rebecca in Upper Mid is the only thing left to figure out, and I'm personally siding with her staying in Lower Mid (once again because of poor enemy phase in a game where characters can easily clear packs of enemies on their phase). If anyone has objections please raise them, or I'll go ahead and make the change.

On top of all that, Rebecca has some absolutely terrible chapters early on when she joins. The pegs in 12 rip her up, 13 is acceptable but still iffy, 13x likes having chip but also has brigands that can randomly roll across the river and gib her, 14 has big wide open spaces and 83475029847509 cavaliers to wreck her shit. 15 and 16 are maybe the only chapters early on when she has a decent time, and by that time I don't see her getting enough levels to even decently compete with the rest of your units.

Also don't get me started on how much being locked to 2-range blows in this game. Fiora to bottom of Upper Mid, Rebecca stays exactly where she is.

Also, on the topic of Isadora. Fiora joins at level 7 in Chapter 19, but has no chance of levelling in that chapter. By the time Isadora joins, assuming 19x but not 19xx, Fiora may be somewhere around 11 or 12 (considering Fiora does OK on 21 with the monks, and also ok on 20 dealing with the rush of mercs / shamans in the middle building).

They're both mounted, so Mov isn't an argument. As the level gap closes, however, Fiora starts to catch up. Let's fast forward to Fiora promoting. (one of the neat things about pegasi is that elysian whips are common enough for basically all of the fliers to promote)