Wednesday, August 10, 2011

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, but with our own thread, we won’t detract from what this site is really about: whatever the hell is going on in that birther thread which I’m afraid to click on, and whether or not ballpark proposals are a great idea or the greatest idea.

(Link is to last month’s thread.)

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I would say the only thing that's unique about Besiktas is how public they have made their negotiations. They're alerting the media when they plan to have internal discussions about calling the agent of an NBA player to set up a meeting to gauge interest in visiting the country for the purposes of negotiating a contract.

Doesn't it seem like Besitkas is just trying to make a name for itself? I guess the fact that they actually signed D-Will says something, but they seem like shameless self-promoters more than anything.

They're a lesser club (one Turkish championship, non-Euroleague) best known in the States for: signing AI/pursuing Kobe, not paying their other players on time, and a soccer scandal ... who have just moved into an arena 5 times as big as their old one. They're not even one of the top 2 clubs in town (Anadolu Efes, Fenerbahce Ulker).
I'd consider them kind of a weirdo outlier.

ESPN'S 5/5 (not Insider) yesterday was about the Magic. 3 of the 5 guys answering questions were Orlando bloggers. When asked the last question--is he staying--in the "fact or fiction" format, all three said they think he is leaving.

ISTM that their best (maybe only) shot to keep him is to trade for Chris Paul.

So, since the offseason and lockout is killing so much discussion, I figured I'd give my own take on the 5-on-5's, since they seem to be a topic of interest:

The Heat are the most despised sports team ever: Fiction. There's too much popularity and apathy. They might be the "lowest upside" championship contender ever. Somehow it feels like LeBron crying over a title is going to be somewhat manufactured.
LeBron's fourth-quarter struggles are a major concern: Fiction. It's not the 4th quarter, but occasional overall dominance.
The Heat are Dwyane Wade's team: Fiction. The Heat win or lose based on LeBron. The only way they're Wade's team is by absence of LeBron's "ownership", which basically makes it LeBron's team by omission.
Miami will have the NBA's best record in '11-12: Fact. They're built to dominate the regular season.
The Heat are the team of the next decade: Fiction. There will be no "team of the next decade", though any team that has LeBron will be contending year after year.

ISTM that their best (maybe only) shot to keep him is to trade for Chris Paul.

Agreed. In fact, I think he'd sign on to stay very quickly with Paul in the mix. I have no idea how they'd get him, though, unless New Orleans just wants to slash spending. Orlando used to have the "if the team sees Gortat as a starting C, he has value" fallback, then they blew that on Jason Richardson.

The Heat are the most despised sports team ever: Fiction. They don't even seem to be that much more hated than the Patriots right now. It would be hard to ever nail this one down anyway.

LeBron's fourth-quarter struggles are a major concern: Fact. But it extends to the whole team and beyond the fourth quarter. As we discussed at the time, they don't have a go-to in the half court that they seem to believe in.

The Heat are Dwyane Wade's team: Fact. Lebron is the best player and the gap will widen over the next several years. Still, Wade appears to be the emotional leader and has deeper ties to the fans. I guess it depends on how you define "___'s team."

Miami will have the NBA's best record in '11-12: Fact. Yeah, unless (1) there is no 11-12 season, (2) Howard goes to LA and goes nuts, or (3) they overplay the "playoffs are all that matters" card and mail in parts of the season.

The Heat are the team of the next decade: Fact. Miami will have the most titles in the teens. To me, that will make them the team of the decade.

OTOH, I'm a little disappointed with this month's "What this site is really about" -- isn't that recycled? Because this site is really about the Blue Jays stealing signs and Adam Dunn's slump. I haven't seen any other articles but those for a month, it seems like.

Anyway, onto the Bobcats, where I'm trying _really_ hard to care, but its hard.

Walker will become the starting PG in his rookie year. Fact: when your competition is DJ Augustin...
Michael Jordan is the right owner for the Bobcats. Fiction: Michael Jordan is never the right answer as an executive.
Jordan could beat any Cats player in one-on-one. I don't care: This question shows how much you should care about the Bobcats too
Biyombo and Walker aside, does Charlotte have any keepers. I honestly can't name any Charlotte Bobcats, except the ones I learned about reading this article.
The Bobcats are now on the right track: I guess it could be worse -- they could have a bunch of awful contracts (I don't think they do). But Biyombo is more likely to be a bust as an All-Star (though he does have upside potential), and Walker's career up side is what...Jameer Nelson?

Biyombo and Walker aside, does Charlotte have any keepers. I honestly can't name any Charlotte Bobcats, except the ones I learned about reading this article.

Gerald Henderson looked good at times last year. Warts and all, I'd still like to have Tyrus Thomas as a 3rd post. Also, Rich Cho, while not a player, is a keeper. As long as he's around, I doubt they'll be dumping assets for nothing at all.

The Bobcats are now on the right track: I guess it could be worse -- they could have a bunch of awful contracts (I don't think they do). But Biyombo is more likely to be a bust as an All-Star (though he does have upside potential), and Walker's career up side is what...Jameer Nelson?

Right, if you're going to bottom out, bottom out hard and do it in a year where there are franchise players available. If there's a season, it seems like Charlotte will be right up there with the worst teams in the league and may get a shot at one of the 4 or 5 elite guys at the top of the draft. Combine that with a very competent GM and at least there is some notion of hope.

I'll play - but these are pretty dumb questions (not your fault, I know).

Walker: Fact, though it may not be 'til late in the year. If there's a year.
MJ: Michael Jordan is never the right answer as an executive.
Jordan could beat any Cats player in one-on-one: Given how many attempts? As to what I think the intent of the question is: no.
Biyombo and Walker aside, does Charlotte have any keepers: Never sure how to define keeper... I like Thomas more than most, but this an entire roster of meh to blech.
The Bobcats are now on the right track: Well, they're better off than they were a few months ago. They are a looooooooooong ways away.

But Biyombo is more likely to be a bust as an All-Star (though he does have upside potential)

i don't know that that's true. i actually think biyombo is a fairly safe draft pick so long as you understand that you'll be getting absolutely no offensive contributions from him.

he seems to be a physically gifted athlete with a high motor, and good defensive and rebounding skills. i'm not convinced that he'll be a true lockdown 5, but i think it's a near certainty that, in addition to being a near-elite rebounder, he'll be a very very good weak side shotblocker, too.

[15] I think its true, but that its not as bad as it sounds. You're saying his upside in Ben Wallace (I basically agree), who was a 4x All Star. So if he hits his upside, he's a fringe All-Star (but also possible Defensive POY).

I guess it depends on your definition of bust, which I might be a bit overzealous with. I think he'll be perceived as a bust if he spend an 8-10 year career as the 2nd or 3rd on the depth chart at his position. I don't think that's actually a bust, but it might have been the definition I intended.

Well, sure, but like I said about the LAHOF (Robinson is a nominee there as well). I think Robinson's legacy belongs to Brooklyn, but mostly it belongs to the USA. He's too big for a city HOF. Put him in all of them.

To me, the city HOF guys should be guys that you instantly think of when you think of sports/fabric/culture in that city. That is why I put Valenzuela over Koufax in LA. Koufax is IMO more national. That is why I left Frank Thomas out of my Chicago HOF (although Moses and Jimmy, actual Chicago sports fans, seem to disagree). Thomas was great, but his legacy does not say CHICAGO to me. A guy like Jordan is different--he is national, global, but also CHICAGO. Same with Magic--he is national and global (not like Jordan, but still global) but also LOS ANGELES.

When I think of Jackie Robinson, I think of the USA, integration, Jim Crow, the Dodgers, Brooklyn. Not NYC.

OTOH, I'm a little disappointed with this month's "What this site is really about" -- isn't that recycled? Because this site is really about the Blue Jays stealing signs and Adam Dunn's slump. I haven't seen any other articles but those for a month, it seems like.

Jim (or a bot) put up a new thread (same as the old thread) because none of you slackers are contributing to keeping up the monthliness of the thread by posting a new one.

I guess I can do it every month, if no one else wants to.

Consider this an opportunity to continue the original sardonic meme,
AS

As per PBT, Rodman is planning to arrive at the ceremony in a helicopter and will hire acrobats:

Aventura’s Dennis Rodman told us Tuesday he will arrive at his Basketball Hall of Fame induction Friday by helicopter. He wanted to enter the Hall on a colorful float, “but they wouldn’t let me block off the street” in Springfield, Mass.

He said he will hire acrobats to perform and “a couple of my outfits will be ‘out there.’ Whatever might be too zany is not too zany.” His marketing agent, Floyd Ragland, said Rodman is spending $60,000 to fly in Penny Marshall, Howard Stern and other friends. Phil Jackson is Rodman’s presenter.

Jackson is also presenting Tex Winter, a pairing which, with Rodman, tells one a little bit about Big Chief Triangle IMO.

Michael Jordan is the right owner for the Bobcats. Fiction: Michael Jordan is never the right answer as an executive.

It's possible that Cho will have enough of a positive effect to make this question irrelevant. Unless Jordan learned a thing or two about making trades and moving around in the draft, Charlotte's draft day moves had Cho's imprint. They did well to get the no.7 pick just for moving Jackson/Livingston and taking on Maggette's salary, even if the draft was weak.

If Cho had no say or influence, I doubt Biyombo would have been taken. Ever since taking Kwame, Jordan had gone almost entirely in the opposite direction by taking a bunch of low-upside college upperclassmen like Morrison and Dudley with Henderson kind of in between. The only classic high upside guy he drafted was Ajinca and that was late in the first round.

Just caught some HOF videos after getting back from the movies. A few thoughts:

It won’t get much attention, but the speech by Reece Tatum III, the son of Harlem Globetrotter Goose Tatum, was very good. Tatum said that his dad was buried in an unmarked grave with no service back in the 1960s, and Marques Haynes, his contemporary on the Trotters, found out about this many years ago, went to the grave site, brought a bible, and spoke. Marques Haynes, now 85 years old, was on stage, and Tatum III thanked him on behalf of his dad. Good stuff.

Supposedly Tex Winter made a special request that Phil Jackson and Jerry Krause shake hands at the ceremony, and they did. Krause, in saying he would do it, said he would "jump off a building for Tex."

Winter's son, unfortunately, didn't do a good job with his speech, rambling and saying some odd things. But it didn't really matter. Winter was able to get on stage and appreciate getting in.

Rodman was Rodman. It was exactly what you would expect, but still pretty cool. Almost broke down three times, had to pause for nearly a full minute at the start. Talked very openly about his failings as a father, and as a son, being deserted by his dad, people who saved him, etc. Dressed in a baseball hat, huge shades, wild scarf, and a goofy, expensive, custom-made jacket with his initials on the front and "Bulls" and "Pistons" on the back, lip ring, nose rings, and two hoop earrings.

This is the first time I have ever watched any NBA HOF stuff--normally I just blow it off since I am following off-season deals etc. Didn't even watch all of Magic, Barkley, and Jordan's speeches when they got in.

There were empty seats in the auditorium's balcony, and it was a pretty small hall.

Jefferson at 53 is kind of a joke. He's such an overrated player who's still living off the up and under post moves he dazzled people with at an early age. Seeing him right out of high school be able to spin in the post and softly put the ball at the hoop was unbelievable. For all his supposed potency in the post though, he's an inefficient scorer and a stagnated one too. I can't understand why a guy who was a wunderkind in post has not added a single post move since he's been in the NBA. I have never seen him try a turnaround jumper or attempt a shot in the post using two hands. He uses the glass about 2 percent of the time. And the first time he uses his left hand will be his first. About 90 percent of his post moves are right-handed push shots that he's not great at making considering his proximity to the hoop. Dwight Howard has more post moves than Jefferson at this point.

i think they did a fairly reasonable job of placing iguodala. he's right around the league's other premier defensive players, josh smith, gerald wallace, tyson chandler, and joakim noah, and i really don't have an issue with him ranking ahead of any of them, because i think his playmaking is more valuable than any of the above's secondary skills.

i would say that luol deng is a little low, as is joe johnson. both those players are horses for their respective teams, and i don't think either the bulls or the hawks would be anywhere near as successful without each of them.

i think tony parker is high. if he was swapped with kyle lowry (#56), i don't think SA would be significantly worse, nor do i think houston would be significantly better.

i also think david west is too high. he's a fine player, but i wonder how much of his production he would maintain if he was playing with a PG who was something less than the best in the world.

Fact or Fiction: Mike Brown was the right hire. Fact. But only just barely. I think he has higher upside that an in-house hire, and different sets of downsides.

Fact or Fiction: Kobe Bryant is the best player in the West. Fiction. He's a great player, but you can see that he's entering that dangerous-late-career-superstar phase of his career. Straight-up comparison, for one season, I'd take Dirk, CP3 and Durant over Kobe.

The Lakers need to ... Get better players (on the court). LA may be able to go 5-deep, unlike Miami's 3, but the drop-off after those 5 is just as calamitous. Practically speaking, the best move is to find a sucker who'll take on Metta World Peace.

Fact or Fiction: L.A. should deal Andrew Bynum or Pau Gasol. Fact. Move Bynum for a legit top-20 player if you can.

Fact or Fiction: The Lakers will win another title with the current core. Fiction. I'm not sure who the "core" is, but I think the sun has set on this group.

Fact or Fiction: Washington should re-sign Nick Young. Fiction. If you want soemone who shoots the ball as often and as badly as he does...wait, they have that in Jordan Crawford.

Fact or Fiction: The Wizards will make the playoffs in 2012 or 2013. Fiction, but they can get better.

Fact or Fiction: Washington's new uniforms are nice! Fact, only because they're so much better than the awful things they've been wearing. I'm still not impressed. But that probably goes back to the horrible choice of "Wizards" when they had to replace "Bullets"

I have two issues with the Brown hire. One is structural. I think you could make a better case for ditching the Triangle, moving on from Phil's crew, etc. if the roster were going to be a lot different. If, say, Fisher were retiring, Odom and Artest were traded for Iguodala, and they had someone other than Blake to take over at the 1, then I might endorse it. As is, I think they would probably have been better off hiring Shaw and keeping the Triangle.

The second is personal: Brown, at least in public, is just not my style. Dave McMenamin of ESPNLA, a laconic wiseass type (like Phil) is already down on Brown--making fun of Brown's O-VER-E-NUN-CI-A-TION and answering this question "fiction." Brown is very gung-ho; he talks in a loud voice about "defining the culture" and "holding people accountable" and "creating a family atmosphere." Not really my kind of guy.

OTOH, I like the Messina hire, and I like keeping Chuck Person. So we'll see.

2. Fiction, but with a caveat.

Nowitzki, Paul, Griffin, and Durant all do more for you than Kobe does now, and you can make arguments for two or three other guys in the conference.

That said, I think the Kobe-is-really-in-decline chorus may be a bit overstated. No, he doesn't get to the rack as much, and his D has slipped, and that matters, but his overall production was still very good. No one fights against time harder than he does, and it helps. As I have said many times, one of the fundamental problems with the way people talk about the Lakers on the internet is that many people, mostly people who don't like Bryant, focus way too much on him and on his personality when they talk about how/what the team is going to do. I am seeing that again some already in this fractured off-season: Gen-Y stats-y bloggers speculating happily about Kobe taking the team down in flames and his screaming at Mike Brown through a firestorm of forced fallaways.

That may happen, but it is about 10th on the Lakers' list of worries behind Jim Buss, Mike Brown, bad contracts, old legs, no spot-up shooters, Bynum's knees, and a half-dozen other things.

3. They need to..

Add speed/quickness

Add shooting

Stop overcommitting in terms of years and money on contracts up and down the roster.

Embrace advanced stats more now that Phil is gone and Buss has, foolishly IMO, gotten rid of Ronnie Lester and some old-school scouts.

Note that I didn't say, "Trade for Dwight Howard." That goes without saying if it is actually possible, but there is not much point in speculating about it now. And I see Howard to the Lakers as an unlikely (but certainly possible) scenario.

Not optimistic about any of the other four.

4. Yeah, but only if they can get back someone really good or elite. Not likely.
5. Unlikely. Not so much because I think Bryant/Gasol/Odom/Bynum are done, but because they hamstrung themselves in terms of upgrading with the contracts thay have handed out. Odom and Barnes have good contracts from a team POV. Bynum's is OK. The rest of the contracts that the veterans have are either too long, too expensive, or both.

Fiction. Brown was a complete failure in Cleveland. His idea of an offense was to hand the ball to LeBron at the top of the key with 20 seconds on the clock and tell him to go to it. The Lakers have a huge need for a well designed offense, as they are so big-heavy. The Triangle is the best offense in the game, especially for passing big men, and they move away from it because of a playoff loss where the opponent hit 55% of their threes?

2. Fact or Fiction: Kobe Bryant is the best player in the West.

I don't care, but probably fiction. If he's not the best, he's not much different. Nowitzki's not who he was three years ago. Timmy's a 25 minute a night guy, and Manu gets hurt too much. Durant is probably the best player out west, but he can always regress/not get the same calls. Durant gets a lot of calls.

3. The Lakers need to ...

Fire Mike Brown.

4. Fact or Fiction: L.A. should deal Andrew Bynum or Pau Gasol.

If there's a Pau deal out there where you could get equivalent basketball value to Pau? Sure, make that deal. I don't think that deal's out there. If you can deal Bynum in a package for Dwight Howard? Hell yes, make that deal.

5. Fact or Fiction: The Lakers will win another title with the current core.

Who is the currently defined core? Kobe/Pau? It's possible. Kobe/Pau/Odom/Bynum? Probably not.

Fact or Fiction: Phoenix should trade Steve Nash. Doesn't matter. The Suns are in need of a new superstar before they contend again. They're more likely to have a chance to get him without Nash, but they'll be awful until they do. If they keep Nash, they're mediocre. Nash is also the franchise player at this point -- the face of the team, even though he's not a career Sun.

Should Marcin Gortat or Robin Lopez start at center? Gortat.

Fact or Fiction: Aaron Brooks is the PG of the future. Fiction.

Which wing will contribute the most going forward? (Vince Carter, Josh Childress, Jared Dudley, Grant Hill, Mickael Pietrus). Son, you're eating a crap sandwich. Now do you want dog poop or cat poop? By process of elimination (har har, that wasn't intended)...ugh, there's no one left. Dudley or Childress.

When will the Suns make the playoffs again? When they stop shedding talented wings and draft picks because they're afraid of overspending. Oh wait, that ship sailed. The earliest is a late-career-Nash resurgence after picking up some valuable pieces in the draft in a year or two (if they keep Nash).

Extra question from me:
Fact or Fiction. The Suns are a cautionary tale about taking your championship window for granted.

Don't bother. You can pretty much take any Abbott comment on Kobe and extrapolate it out as the argument.

Issues I have with it:
1. Using Kobe's head falling into the knee of a courtside spectator and hurting himself as a sign of age. Really? A young guy couldn't have the exact same thing?
2. Again with the Kobe ballhogging in crunch time thing. Sure has hurt them. Really kept them from lifting the O'Brien trophy.
3. The whole thing is about how Kobe's overpaid. So Henry, you're saying you wouldn't have extended Kobe? What's the move after that? Because with Kobe, they are legitimate contenders. Without?

San Diego police are investigating a man’s report that he was injured by Los Angeles Lakers star Kobe Bryant in an incident at a Carmel Valley church on Sunday.

A man called police at 11:30 a.m. and said he was the victim of a battery at St. Therese of Carmel on Del Mar Trails Road, police spokeswoman Lt. Andra Brown said Tuesday.

Brown said the case has been assigned to a detective. She did not confirm any details about the alleged battery.

The San Diego Union-Tribune’s media partner, 10News, reported that Bryant was attending a service at the church and thought a man was taking pictures of him on a cellphone. He allegedly took the phone from the man, saw that he was not in any photos and left the church.

10News reported that the man said his wrist was injured when Bryant took the phone, and he went to a hospital for treatment.

Lakers’ spokesman John Black said that because of the NBA lockout, the team was not allowed to make comments about any players.

A woman who answered the phone at St. Therese Tuesday morning said church staff had no comment about the alleged incident

The Golden State Warriors! I was a huge fan during the Run TMC years, mostly because they had drafted Tyrone Hill out of Xavier. Do you have any idea how hard it was to get a full box score of a Golden State Warriors game when you're a 16 year old kid living in Cincinnati? Let alone even see a game on TV? OTOH, I got to stay up late watching Nellie run a point-center offense to try to drag David Robinson out of the paint on D, when the 1991 Warriors upset the Spurs. Ah, glory days. Maybe I should change my handle to "Billy Owens is not your savior" for the day.

Fact or Fiction: Golden State should trade Monta Ellis. Fact, but I'd guess they have about a year or so to do it, before teams realize that he's overvalued.
Fact or Fiction: Acquiring David Lee was a mistake. Fact. For a team in this position, grabbing a guy who's _maybe_ the best player on a playoff team isn't really adding a ton of value, and is limiting flexibility.
Fact or Fiction: The Warriors are loaded with talent. Fiction. Ellis is a nice trading chip, and the hope is that Curry makes a leap (which I'd bet on). But there's still not much there.
Fact or Fiction: Golden State will finish above .500 next season. Fiction. They're better off getting as many ping pong balls as they can.
Fact or Fiction: The Warriors have the best jerseys in the league. Fiction. Maybe I'm too old to get the retro thing, but, no. They look like a rec league school jersey, where every team gets the same design in a different color. I guess it sucks to be a team that can't go with a classic look like the Lakers, Celtics or Bulls.

[53] I don't know if I'd put them in that order, but I can see an argument for it. The argument is that Durant is very very good, but has limited remaining upside, particularly in terms of creating his own offense.

MOP (Most Overrated Player): Andrea Bargnani - A big man who neither defends nor rebounds would need to be an elite offensive player just to be an average player overall. Bargnani is merely good on offense and should not be on the list at all.

Runner-up: John Salmons - Did you know he'll be 32 this year? Salmons only has a reasonable claim to his spot if we're looking at player performance in the final two months of the year following a mid-season trade. Otherwise, #196 probably would be more appropriate.

MUP: Ty Lawson - I think he would lead this team to dominate the All-Overrated Team. Against an opposing backcourt of Monta Ellis, Tyreke Evans, Jamal Crawford, and Jason Richardson, his offense would be unstoppable.

Runner-up (tie): Ryan Anderson and Amir Johnson - Both players are primarily power forwards, but I think they could work as a frontcourt tandem. Anderson just turned 23, and he's a very good player by any measure (19 PER, +5 Simple Rating, +3 RAPM). Johnson is only one year older despite being in the league for six years. He's younger and consistently better than Bargnani, yet somehow Bargnani is widely considered the best player in Toronto.

Also, this lockout is really boring. I just can't seem to get excited about whether Billy King is allowed to attend the Humphries-Kardashian wedding (breaking news: he is!).

Also, this lockout is really boring. I just can't seem to get excited about whether Billy King is allowed to attend the Humphries-Kardashian wedding (breaking news: he is!).

I am also discouraged every time I read a report on a player who comments on the negotiations. They seem so clueless. Kevin Love was quoted today saying that he learned at an informational meeting that the owners' proposal isn't fair. Love is supposed to be a smart, thoughtful guy. I don't expect a lot, but is that all you've got for an explanation?

I've got no real complaints on this list except for Amare. I think you're focusing far more on what he can't do than what he does do. There's just not many guys that do what he does, or could do what he does. Sure, should he play D more? Yes, but even without it, he's still pretty freaking good.

All-Underrated

I've got more issues here. I think Paul Millsap was exposed last year. I think Bogut may never be as good as he was two seasons ago. The injuries may have caught up with him. I like him and two years ago, I'm there. Last year was not impressive, though, and I'm not sure he'll get over the injuries. Amir Johnson and Ryan Anderson are both limited players that are valuable in their roles. If they're starting for you, you're team is suffering. I don't think they're that good. Maybe they should be in the top 100, maybe not.

MOP (Most Overrated Player): Andrea Bargnani - A big man who neither defends nor rebounds would need to be an elite offensive player just to be an average player overall. Bargnani is merely good on offense and should not be on the list at all.

I don't think he's even "good" on offense. His TS% of 53.3 is slightly below-average as is his eFG of 48 percent and he hardly creates for his teammates at all. He's like the bigger, foreign version of Big Baby. If he and Davis formed the starting frontcourt of the Jordan/Pippen Bulls teams, those teams wouldn't have won any championships.

Kevin Love was quoted today saying that he learned at an informational meeting that the owners' proposal isn't fair.I don't expect a lot, but is that all you've got for an explanation?

Think you're off on this one.

Love said the players don't want to see years cut off guaranteed contracts and are not pleased with a proposal that they could lose money if not playing up to their contracts. He also said that the proposed revenue split (50-50, rather than the 57-43 split in favor of players) is unacceptable.

Love said there was no talk at the regional meeting about the rookie wage scale or the NBA's current rule that prevents players from going directly to the NBA from high school when they turn 18.

"We had a couple of heated arguments," Love said of one of the regional meetings. "No one was talking about decertification. When there was a lockout in 1998-99 they didn't have any meetings in June and July and until early August and we want to make sure the ball gets rolling so we're not locked out the whole year or we're signing a bad deal."

Love said the main issue was the proposed hard cap of $62 million. Love called it a poor idea that would cause mayhem because only a few players would get a high salary, with everyone else getting the lower end of the wage scale or the league minimum.

___________________

You may not agree with him, but I am not sure what kind of detail you're looking for. And yes, UCLA guys are smart and thoughtful.

Alex-Yeah, I think the owners are pretty dug in, for sure, as are the players. The hard cap issue is a major impediment, as is the path to revenue sharing. They really do seem like they're very, very far apart, here. The big issue is that fundamentally, the owners want to change the system. In the NFL, they were tweaking what already existed, which is why in the end it was easier to come to an agreement. The NBA owners want something different in their sport, that frankly looks a lot more like football's system (at least in terms of caps). Talking to a couple people who are well connected to this last week, they seemed to indicate the general consensus among the people they talk to is that we'd be lucky to have a season.Ugh.

Fact or Fiction: The Clippers will make the playoffs next season. Fiction. Not in the West.

Fact or Fiction: Blake Griffin will win an MVP award as a Clipper. Fiction. I expect this to be thrown back in my face, but I don't think the Venn diagram intersection of "winning an MVP", "staying with the Clippers" and "not getting the Clipper Curse" overlaps enough.

Fact or Fiction: Re-signing DeAndre Jordan is a must. Fact, for reasonable definition of "must". I wouldn't give him an old-CBA max deal.

Fact or Fiction: Bledsoe and Aminu are the future 1 and 3 for L.A. Fiction. Not if they want to make item #1 true anytime in the future.

The Chinese team has a history of starting brawls. They started one against Brazil last year. I don't know why any US team would want to play them, especially given the obviously biased officiating that took place. Doesn't seem like a very good tuneup. Better to just beat up on the hapless Athletes in Action.

You may not agree with him, but I am not sure what kind of detail you're looking for. And yes, UCLA guys are smart and thoughtful.

He said reducing guaranteed years and the revenue split are non-starters. Also, the fact that the only direct quote that they could pull doesn't make sense and is factually wrong (his goal is to make sure they get the ball rolling before mid-August? Huh?) makes the interview unflattering in my eyes. Maybe I'm being too harsh.

the georgetown basketball team was involved in a bench clearing brawl during a goodwill trip to china.

I have watched the video about 8 times. The Georgetown player (hard to see who is who) isn't free of fault. They trapped aggressively (within the rules) and he threw an elbow to get by the guy after he made a pass (illegal, somewhat provocative, somewhat understandable, and ultimately part of the game).

I have watched enough basketball to know how this plays out- guy gets frustrated by refs, other team gets aggressive toward the guy, the guy throws an elbow in frustration, then you get some combination of someone getting in his face, maybe a shove, maybe some restraining by teammates, but that's about where it reasonably ends. I'll blame the Hoyas for everything up to that amount of the fracas.

But the whole team and the FANS gang-stomping the players? Good god almighty, is there any kind of public event where that is commonplace? After the initial elbow, there is no physical confrontation that is clearly initiated by a Georgetown player, which is in some ways admirable. In other ways, it's terrifying because it means the "melee" was just a gang beating. The brawl in Detroit is considered one of the worst fights in recent US sports history because it involved fans, but it involved about 4 fans and they didn't run onto the court to attack players. I'm really bothered. Maybe part of it is the racial overtones of the all Chinese team beating up on the black players, but I haven't had enough time to think about it rationally.

I didn't see the Georgetown game but I saw some of Duke versus the Junior Chinese National Team and the officiating was ridiculously one-sided. If I was a chinese player, I wouldn't want that. Even if you win, how do you take satisfaction from that? All China had to do to score was drive to the basket because they got the whistle nearly every time and if they made a shot with a few dribbles after the whistle, they got continuation. An exhibition game is no time to blow a gasket yet the Duke coaches and players blew multiple ones. It was funny that early on, coach K didn't react much to the bad calls, choosing at one point to whack his elbow to indicate a missed foul. Then after the bad calls kept coming, he went bersek to a ref.

Kobe Bryant insisted on giving some of the team's playoff bonus to two members of the Lakers' video department whose contracts were not renewed after the season. Chris Bodaken and Patrick O'Keefe split about $65,000 of the Lakers' playoff bonus.

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Bryant and Derek Fisher, Lakers' captains last season, voted to give some of the playoff money to Bodaken and O'Keefe.

Lakers reserve forward Luke Walton took an extra step after the season by providing individual financial gifts to members of the training staff.

Yeah, a lot of people in LakerLand are pissed off at Little Buss for the massive layoffs/cuts. I assume, though, that he would not have done it without the old man's approval.

Luke Walton, although now a punchline as a "player", is often talked about as being a great guy. I suspect that Walton's post-playing career may wind up being more noteworthy than his playing career. It is easy to see him as a coach, scout, FO guy, or TV guy.

He said reducing guaranteed years and the revenue split are non-starters.

Like I said, you don't agree with him. That is a different thing than Love's being "clueless." Michael Jordan told an Australian media outlet yesterday that "the system is broken", which is the standard shitbag team/small-market owner meme in all American sports labor disputes because it's better than saying, "We have not been able to land a superstar and have done a crappy job with a lot of other decisions but want to make a nice profit anyway." I think Jordan is wrong, but from an owner POV, that is just standard stuff to say.

Also, Love said 50/50 is unacceptable, which, given that the starting point was 57/43 and the players have already agreed to adjust it, makes sense to me. Seems like the owners might want to try to meet at, say, 54 or 53 if they really want to negotiate. As to giving up guaranteed years--of course they are going to say that publicly at this point. No other union in sports wants to be the NFLPA, and for good reasons.

Also, the fact that the only direct quote that they could pull doesn't make sense and is factually wrong (his goal is to make sure they get the ball rolling before mid-August? Huh?)

There were several quotes in both versions I saw. Here is one direct quote:

"We all know we'll have to sacrifice but something has to be done," Love told ESPN.com Tuesday night. "It has to be sooner than later. We have to get the ball rolling. We can't wait around until October or November and then nothing gets done. The owners will keep stalling and obviously they have more means than us to lock us out."

There are four or five others. The August quote is a little jumbled, but I think he is just saying that they waited too long in 98/99, they are doing it again, and something needs to be done.

Like I said, you don't agree with him. That is a different thing than Love's being "clueless." Michael Jordan told an Australian media outlet yesterday that "the system is broken", which is the standard shitbag team/small-market owner meme in all American sports labor disputes because it's better than saying, "We have not been able to land a superstar and have done a crappy job with a lot of other decisions but want to make a nice profit anyway." I think Jordan is wrong, but from an owner POV, that is just standard stuff to say.

Yeah, Jordan doesn't sound any more insightful. Maybe I worded it too harshly, but I intended by original point to be that Love, who has a reputation for being more thoughtful and a better communicator than the average player, came off as indistinguishable from the average player. That doesn't make him a bad guy.

I suppose the larger problem is that I've read the same story with a random player quoted saying the same thing about 30 times by now. I shouldn't take it out on Love for being unoriginal when he really needn't be and there is nothing better to write about, anyway.

I know Gretzky was perhaps the greatest hockey player ever, but I can't get behind Gretzky over The Logo in an LA-centric HOF. He only won one title as a player, but that was one more than The Great One won in LA, and you add to that his long-term role in the Lakers FO, I think he is a better choice than Gretzky.

Ditka and Butkus...well, they do say CHICAGO to me in big letters, so I can see that.

Fact or Fiction: Jimmer Fredette will be a success in the NBA. Being a defensive seive hasn't stopped a lot of NBA careers. I'm calling success as "spending most of his career as a starter or rotation guy".

Fact or Fiction: Tyreke Evans is a future superstar. Fiction. Superstar says Top-10 or Top-15 to me. Don't see that in Tyreke. Starter? Sure.

Fact or Fiction: DeMarcus Cousins is worth the trouble. Fact. Which doesn't change the fact that he'll probably be playing somewhere else when people figure that out.

Fact or Fiction: Sacramento's pre-lockout trades were smart moves. Meh. They were basically a wash.

Terrelle Pryor at 6'5, 232 pounds ran a 4.41 forty. He was a pretty good basketball player in high school too. A top 50 guy who might have been higher if he focused more on basketball. I'd wager that Lebron could at least match that time and beat it by being in the 4.3s.

Edit: Strike that, he ran a 4.38. Definitely think Lebron could run a 4.3.

Derrick Rose will repeat as MVP. Like next season? No. Will he win another one? Maybe. Not likely though, unless he takes another jump similar to this past season. He was a good story last year, but now the expectations are higher and that story is old news.

Rose should shoot less. Fact and fiction. Fiction if all you're doing is looking at shot totals, independent of type and the rest of the team. Fact if it means an increase in his shot selection IQ. Again though, most of the time he was just left alone and told to get a bucket. That's not a long term sustainable strategy. Other times, he chucked up bad 3s early in the shot clock. He could have the same number of shots next year and be either worse or better than this year, so the question is oversimplified (as are most of them in this 5 for 5 business).

Chicago would like a do-over on the Boozer acquisition Fiction. I think the Bulls knew the risks, and he was the best option out there (at the time of the signing and for the price). I don't know if we can ever expect him to be as healthy, but he certainly can be more productive (especially if we're talking about the playoffs). Depending on the new CBA, this answer could change.

Chicago can win a ring with Keith Bogans starting at SG. Fiction. Unless the Bulls pull off a Dwight Howard trade without giving up Rose or Deng.

The Bulls will win the Eastern Conference. Not if Bogans is still the starting SG. So I'll refrain from answering until FA happens and the season starts. Needless to say, I'm not as Bullish on the Heat as others in the thread were when their 5for5 happened.

If LeBron James could run a 4.3, that would make him one of the 10 fastest players in the NFL, slower only than the fastest runningbacks, WRs, and cornerbacks. Jamaal Charles was a track star in high school and is one of the fastest runningbacks in the NFL, and his combine time was 4.38.

Cross-posted from Gladwell thread. We could probably have a separate conversation about that here:

The argument in this column misses the relationship between spending money, winning, and making money in pro sports and the NBA. It isn't outright false to say that owners invest money in pro sports teams because they get psychic benefits out of the investment, and it's also fair to distinguish pro sports teams from other businesses in terms of expected return on investment. On the other hand, teams that lose money are generally teams that lose a lot of games. Furthermore, owners invest money in players (most of the time) to try to win more games, which has the dual effect of placating the owner's ego and raising attendance/ratings/merchandising.

His argument, taken to its logical extreme, is that ALL money invested in a pro sports team is invested to return a psychic benefit, and that's not true. Even Mark Cuban would stop spending on the Mavs if they made no money at all. There is some truth to what Gladwell says, and I think most people already view sports in that context (that owners get to have the fun of being sports owners, so we don't necessarily think they SHOULD profit as much as an owner of another sort of enterprise), but he takes the argument too far.

I know Gretzky was perhaps the greatest hockey player ever, but I can't get behind Gretzky over The Logo in an LA-centric HOF. He only won one title as a player, but that was one more than The Great One won in LA, and you add to that his long-term role in the Lakers FO, I think he is a better choice than Gretzky.

Greatest ever by a mile. Have you ever looked at his stats? He's so far out beyond anyone that, barring big changes in the NHL, he's untouchable at this point. His value also went beyond the ice in that he raised interest in America and in non-traditional markets (for better or worse).

Agreed. And he's definitely more than 250 (I'd guess more like 275).

Also agree. I'm pretty impressed with Pryor running sub-4.4 Just my opinion, but if he seriously wants an NFL career, he needs to give up QB.

That’s where police say Randolph, a former Trail Blazer now playing for the Memphis Grizzlies, invited a Southeast Portland man he knew to his mansion on Southwest Turner Road, in the Stafford area south of West Linn, for an after-cruise party. The Portland man, James Ruben Beasley, told police he was invited to sell marijuana at the party, which drew about 20 people.

But something went wrong around 4 a.m. Saturday.

“Mr. Beasley said four to seven people jumped him and beat him bloody with pool cues,” said Sgt. James Rhodes, Clackamas County Sheriff’s Office spokesman.

Beasley says Randolph was not involved in the beating. Randolph has not been charged with anything yet
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Greatest ever by a mile.

Fair enough. I know very little about hockey. I would still pick West for an LA HOF, though. Lakers>>>>>>Kings in the LA market.

Carmelo Anthony and Chris Bosh will appear in an episode of Law and Order SVU this fall, and Kevin Durant is close to signing a movie deal.

Luke Walton will be doing some coaching at U of Memphis during the lockout.

I feel like the Grantland missed the obvious explanation which is that it's a manifestation of the winner's curse. No need for psychic benefits; you just need a small number of billionaires who value a given team more than Forbes does.

Edit: the link requires an apostrophe, which the url processor seems to eat up.

Carmelo Anthony and Chris Bosh will appear in an episode of Law and Order SVU this fall, and Kevin Durant is close to signing a movie deal.

Is Bosh going to be the victim? He has been practicing the part where he cries for a while.

Bulls 5on5

1. Fact or Fiction: Derrick Rose will repeat as MVP. Fiction. Silly question. He won based on the story and the story won't repeat.

2. Fact or Fiction: Rose should shoot less. Fiction. The NBA no longer requires you to dump the ball into the post at the start of every possession. You can succeed with your primary ball handler as your primary scorer. I think of Rose as similar to a small Lebron, and there have never been calls for him to shoot less. Go to the rim more? Maybe.

3. Fact or Fiction: Chicago would like a do-over on the Boozer acquisition. Fiction. I don't know what the Bulls would actually like, but if I'm the Bulls, I'd want to give it one more year to see if he can get healthy and contribute because he has a skill level that is not readily available through trade or the free agent market. Maybe he'll never fit, but it's incumbent on them to try to make it work.

4. Fact or Fiction: Chicago can win a ring with Keith Bogans starting at SG. Fiction. By "starting," I think they mean having the same role he did last year. He could be a deep rotation player at most. They need a shooter in the lineup, period.

5. Fact or Fiction: The Bulls will win the Eastern Conference. Fiction. No way that is more likely than not.

Addition: Nothing here about Luol Deng. I was watching an old Suns-Warriors game on NBATV and was struck by how much the young Ced Ceballos reminded me of Deng, right down to the long stretches where he disappears. If I could change one thing about the Bulls, it would be keeping him aggressive when he is on the court. Well, the SG thing might come first, but that's right up there.

Greatest ever by a mile. Have you ever looked at his stats? He's so far out beyond anyone that, barring big changes in the NHL, he's untouchable at this point. His value also went beyond the ice in that he raised interest in America and in non-traditional markets (for better or worse).

This is not the hockey thread, but all Gretzky for sure is the greatest scorer, and even that is arguable to some degree with Lemieux (1.88 points per game to Gretzky's 1.92). Greatest player? He has an argument, of course, but "greatest ever by a mile" is a massive overstatement, IMO. Winning hockey games involves more than just scoring.

Wayne cries himself to sleep on those 4 championship rings? If you want to knock him, its probably for that loaded Edmonton team not winning 5 in a row. How big of an upset was it when they were eliminated? I'm too young, and not enough of a hockey fan to have a feel for that.

Gretzky's greatness, to me, is in part defined by his vast superiority over Lemieux, where it's arguable that Lemieux is the second greatest hockey player of all time.

Gretzky's greatness is defined by his vast superiority over Lemieux, where it's arguable that Lemieux is the second greatest hockey player of all time.

"Vast superiority over Lemieux"? Seriously? In what, counting stats? This is the argument for Gretzky, that he had the greater (well, healthier) career. Was Gretzky at his best as good as Lemieux at his best? Did he do more things to help his team win besides score (which Lemieux, when healthy, did as well as Gretzky anyway)? I would say no. You may disagree, but that's an argument, and not definitive one way or the other.

Anyway, I'm not *knocking* Gretzky, I don't think, to say he is "one of the four or five best players ever, and possibly the best". He's just a bit overrated, IMO, by people who think he is the clear, #1, no-arguments-to-be-had greatest player of all time because of his scoring totals.

Because this is the NBA thread, I will stop before I start discussing Gordie Howe, Bobby Orr, and getting in over my head.