If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

I have made my share of criticism of NDP, but I think our official opposition could have make a better use of this visit than mocking Ontario. For example doing the hard work of actually devising an actionable alternative plan rather than the easy work of criticizing. We like it or not, politics is the art of dealing with those we disagree with to advance our interests. Yesterday I read Trump saying he likes to approve KXL pipeline but wants a bigger share of profits. Again, we like it or not these are the actors we have to deal with. It does not matter how strong or correct one's argument is if the other side can stall your progress. We have to be smarter than that.

All the WR accomplished with their ignorant petulance was providing more fodder for the image that Alberta has been stuck with for forever, that it's the home of rednecks and hicks out here. Thanks a lot, WR.

Funny how Wildrose are the ones who always talk about running the government like a business. Yet this stunt was akin to shouting insults at a CEO who is going to decide whether or not her company will invest in one of your ventures.

I love how Wynne told out the woman card. Old bag. I really dislike her, and the truth hurts. Listening to it again on Roy Greene show, nobody thought what he said was that bad.
They ( the WR) could have picked a better time and place, but i see their frustration. Ontario has so much debt, and they see what the NDP are doing and are going to do..( sigh)

The Wildrose made fools out themselves in the legislature during this visit but it looks like it may have finally given Jean enough of a lever to give Fildebrandt the boot.

Unfortunately Wynne will lever her approval of pipelines with everything she has. Ontario's finances are in a mess, their utility costs are through the roof and her government is not the one Notley should mimic. Green initiatives have cost the Ontario taxpayers billions (yes billions) of dollars in wasted money and yet Wynne still goes marching to the beat of that elusive clean air utopian drum.
Fildebrandt comments are how a lot of people feel about Wynne and the way she runs Ontario but he should have kept them for another day.
Now Fildebrandt has been suspended from caucus for another incident on his Facebook page in regards to Wynne. Apparently someone called Wynne Mr. Wynne and Fildebrandt misread the post and agreed with the poster so now he's been sidelined. Anyone can misread a post if they read it fast enough but I guess Jean must be tired of his shenanegans.http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/...745/story.html

The post referred to openly gay Ontario Premier Wynne as ‘Mr. Wynne or whatever the hell she identifies as,’ praising Fildebrandt for his treatment of Wynne during her visit to Alberta Legislature Thursday. Fildebrandt replied to the original post commending the man’s comments, saying he was “proud to have constituents like you.”

Fildebrandt wasn't turfed for the tweet, that was just the opportunity. He was turfed because he was constantly challenging Jean's authority. Jean just needed a public reason to eliminate him.

That's what I think as well, what he said was scripted at the visit (albeit they didn't expect Wynne to be there). The tweet was stupid but he immediately apologized (which even NDP acknowledged). It's an opportunity to take him down a peg or two.

^yeah it's a bit ridiculous, pointing out how badly a premier has mismanaged the economy in her province is not a sexist attack.

I'm curious what happens when Trump wins (looking more and more likely). Keystone XL is likely a better project for TransCanada than energy east.

Well, saying that one of the Liberal advisers(who also did some work for Harper and the Conservatives) wants to "speed-up the transition to a low-carbon economy" is a bit far from saying that "Trudeau says no" to any new pipelines.

You can bet she's gotten a hate on for Alberta as a whole after this. I don't like what happened, it's embarrassing but not to worry too much she most certainly will be turfed next election. She is a bit too extreme in her thinking and people in Ontario (where I have relatives) are thinking she's a bit of a nut.

You can bet she's gotten a hate on for Alberta as a whole after this. I don't like what happened, it's embarrassing but not to worry too much she most certainly will be turfed next election. She is a bit too extreme in her thinking and people in Ontario (where I have relatives) are thinking she's a bit of a nut.

I know. I also have friends and relatives there. She didn't start out this way, at least that's their thinking. She has cost them a lot of money.

Well, saying that one of the Liberal advisers(who also did some work for Harper and the Conservatives) wants to "speed-up the transition to a low-carbon economy" is a bit far from saying that "Trudeau says no" to any new pipelines.

Probably yes, but with Wynne in his ear, and Butts controlling the message of both, I say no pipelines unless Trump gets in, if he gets in.

Fildebrandt wasn't turfed for the tweet, that was just the opportunity. He was turfed because he was constantly challenging Jean's authority. Jean just needed a public reason to eliminate him.

Unless you have other information this is presumption.

What I'm hearing is this was far from the first time Fildebrandt screwed up, and screwed up online and that he was specifically told NOT to post on social media anymore due to this.

What took place on the facebook comment is not merely a mistake, Its Fildebrandt monumentally screwing up in a comments stating specific praise for the posts stating "he was proud to have constituents like you".

Fildebrandt then dismisses the mistake stating he gets 800 comments a day facebook and tries to respond to them.

But this isn't just 1/800, this is an extremely toxic post of the nature that is poison for the Wildrose label which has already seen more than enough of this. Damn straight Fildebrandt should be more careful that to effusive praise to such an offensive comment.

Fildebrandt may no be homophobic, me may be apologetic (but not completely) but he can't take back that his facebook reply was both idiotic and harmful to the party. Some things you can't say sorry for, damage done in this instance.

"if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

Fildebrandt wasn't turfed for the tweet, that was just the opportunity. He was turfed because he was constantly challenging Jean's authority. Jean just needed a public reason to eliminate him.

Unless you have other information this is presumption.

What I'm hearing is this was far from the first time Fildebrandt screwed up, and screwed up online and that he was specifically told NOT to post on social media anymore due to this.

What took place on the facebook comment is not merely a mistake, Its Fildebrandt monumentally screwing up in a comments stating specific praise for the posts stating "he was proud to have constituents like you".

Fildebrandt then dismisses the mistake stating he gets 800 comments a day facebook and tries to respond to them.

But this isn't just 1/800, this is an extremely toxic post of the nature that is poison for the Wildrose label which has already seen more than enough of this. Damn straight Fildebrandt should be more careful that to effusive praise to such an offensive comment.

Fildebrandt may no be homophobic, me may be apologetic (but not completely) but he can't take back that his facebook reply was both idiotic and harmful to the party. Some things you can't say sorry for, damage done in this instance.

So, lemme get this straight. Fildebrandt was told not to post on social media because of his screwups, but he continued to post roughly 800 replies a day? But this flagrant violation of orders didn't come to the attention of Wildrose leadership until the "Mr. Wynne" snafu?

Will someone remind us all how many shovels got in the ground under the CONS and the PCs?

Are you referring to pipelines? Quite a few, including the original keystone, anchor loop, Alberta clipper, and line 9.

Yeah, and don't forget the Calgary Canadian Centre for Music, the Calgary Sports Hall of Fame of Canada, and the order of magnitude more than Edmonton transportation infrastructure funding Calgary received from the Conservative Party of Calgary.

Will someone remind us all how many shovels got in the ground under the CONS and the PCs?

Are you referring to pipelines? Quite a few, including the original keystone, anchor loop, Alberta clipper, and line 9.

Yeah, and don't forget the Calgary Canadian Centre for Music, the Calgary Sports Hall of Fame of Canada, and the order of magnitude more than Edmonton transportation infrastructure funding Calgary received from the Conservative Party of Calgary.

So after I correctly point out lots of pipelines were built under the conservatives since 2011, you shift the goalposts and start talking about projects in Calgary, ignoring every project in Edmonton (e.g. Alberta gallery, RAM relocation, Federal building renovation, metro line LRT, etc.). Ok... but I'm sure only Edmonton will get projects now that your evil cons are out of power and the NDP and Trudeau are in charge...

Fildebrandt wasn't turfed for the tweet, that was just the opportunity. He was turfed because he was constantly challenging Jean's authority. Jean just needed a public reason to eliminate him.

Unless you have other information this is presumption.

What I'm hearing is this was far from the first time Fildebrandt screwed up, and screwed up online and that he was specifically told NOT to post on social media anymore due to this.

What took place on the facebook comment is not merely a mistake, Its Fildebrandt monumentally screwing up in a comments stating specific praise for the posts stating "he was proud to have constituents like you".

Fildebrandt then dismisses the mistake stating he gets 800 comments a day facebook and tries to respond to them.

But this isn't just 1/800, this is an extremely toxic post of the nature that is poison for the Wildrose label which has already seen more than enough of this. Damn straight Fildebrandt should be more careful that to effusive praise to such an offensive comment.

Fildebrandt may no be homophobic, me may be apologetic (but not completely) but he can't take back that his facebook reply was both idiotic and harmful to the party. Some things you can't say sorry for, damage done in this instance.

So, lemme get this straight. Fildebrandt was told not to post on social media because of his screwups, but he continued to post roughly 800 replies a day? But this flagrant violation of orders didn't come to the attention of Wildrose leadership until the "Mr. Wynne" snafu?

The article didn't say he posts 800 times a day it states he receives around 800 messages a day.

Who said it hadn't come to attention? According to statements he defied the directive on an ongoing basis. Of course this particular incident, which leaves Fildebrandt discredited, allows the party to then utilize this screw up to consequence him justly. The notion that this was some Machiavellian plot is unfounded. Fildebrandt discredited himself and its on him.

Of course its yet another indication of how politicians, people, need to be more careful what thye state on line. Not sure when politicians got this idea that they should devote so much of their attention online and respond to so much. Fildebrandt excuses his screw up by citing 800 posts a day. Anything you can't reflect and respond to carefully you shouldn't be responding to at all. When does this learning curve stop for politicians deep-sixing their career online?

Last edited by Replacement; 30-05-2016 at 09:39 AM.

"if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

Fildebrandt wasn't turfed for the tweet, that was just the opportunity. He was turfed because he was constantly challenging Jean's authority. Jean just needed a public reason to eliminate him.

Unless you have other information this is presumption.

What I'm hearing is this was far from the first time Fildebrandt screwed up, and screwed up online and that he was specifically told NOT to post on social media anymore due to this.

What took place on the facebook comment is not merely a mistake, Its Fildebrandt monumentally screwing up in a comments stating specific praise for the posts stating "he was proud to have constituents like you".

Fildebrandt then dismisses the mistake stating he gets 800 comments a day facebook and tries to respond to them.

But this isn't just 1/800, this is an extremely toxic post of the nature that is poison for the Wildrose label which has already seen more than enough of this. Damn straight Fildebrandt should be more careful that to effusive praise to such an offensive comment.

Fildebrandt may no be homophobic, me may be apologetic (but not completely) but he can't take back that his facebook reply was both idiotic and harmful to the party. Some things you can't say sorry for, damage done in this instance.

So, lemme get this straight. Fildebrandt was told not to post on social media because of his screwups, but he continued to post roughly 800 replies a day? But this flagrant violation of orders didn't come to the attention of Wildrose leadership until the "Mr. Wynne" snafu?

The article didn't say he posts 800 times a day it states he receives around 800 messages a day.

Yes, but presumbaly, he tries to respond to most of them, otherwise why is he mentioning the number when mounting his defense?

If a chef says to his wife "Sorry I'm late getting home, we had eighty customers at the restaurant", I think the wife is meant to understand that he made meals for eighty people. If he only made meals for five, and told the rest of them to go home, then the number of customers is pretty irrelevant.

And your original paraphrase was..

Fildebrandt then dismisses the mistake stating he gets 800 comments a day facebook and tries to respond to them.

But, for the sake of argument, let's say he's only replying to 10% of the comments. That's still forty replies a day from a guy who had been ordered to stay off social media.

Who said it hadn't come to attention? According to statements he defied the directive on an ongoing basis.

And there was nothing the party could do to stop him, until this incident with Wynne? I guess maybe they didn't want to suspend him when their problems with him were just a private matter, ie. no one knew about the dispute over his posting, and they didn't want to draw attention to it by turfing him.

But still, when a boss neglects to discipline an employee who continually disobeys an order, I think the boss has to take a hefty share of the blame when things screw up as a result.

Fildebrandt may have been on Jean's to do list. What with the fire in Ft. Mc being Jean's riding and also Jean losing his own home etc. maybe he has had no time to have a talk with Fildebrandt. Once they sit down and Fildebrandt is read the riot act he will maybe remove the suspension.

It was obvious that Fildebrandt was and is a pretty ambitious guy... but even merely imagining the possibility of a Premier Fildebrandt turns my stomach. He's our closest analogue to a pure tea party Republican.

The president of the Wildrose constituency association in Derek Fildebrandt’s riding says local party members are solidly behind the Strathmore-Brooks MLA after he was suspended from caucus over a social media slip-up.
Ronda Klemmensen said Monday that the local board wants Wildrose Leader Brian Jean and the caucus to reinstate Fildebrandt.
“He’s got our support 100 per cent,” she said in an interview Monday.

The president of the Wildrose constituency association in Derek Fildebrandt’s riding says local party members are solidly behind the Strathmore-Brooks MLA after he was suspended from caucus over a social media slip-up.
Ronda Klemmensen said Monday that the local board wants Wildrose Leader Brian Jean and the caucus to reinstate Fildebrandt.
“He’s got our support 100 per cent,” she said in an interview Monday.

Well that's just the "local" support. Of course they support Fildbrandt, that would be typical in a riding incumbency. Silly for the Journal to report that one observance specifically.

But anyway the Wildroser party never surprises me. A faction party that had its origins from splitting with the cons continues to be susceptible to splinters, infighting, mutiny, etc. The party is probably doomed to that.

That said I can at least respect Jean.

"if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

Will someone remind us all how many shovels got in the ground under the CONS and the PCs?

Are you referring to pipelines? Quite a few, including the original keystone, anchor loop, Alberta clipper, and line 9.

Yeah, and don't forget the Calgary Canadian Centre for Music, the Calgary Sports Hall of Fame of Canada, and the order of magnitude more than Edmonton transportation infrastructure funding Calgary received from the Conservative Party of Calgary.

So after I correctly point out lots of pipelines were built under the conservatives since 2011, you shift the goalposts and start talking about projects in Calgary, ignoring every project in Edmonton (e.g. Alberta gallery, RAM relocation, Federal building renovation, metro line LRT, etc.). Ok... but I'm sure only Edmonton will get projects now that your evil cons are out of power and the NDP and Trudeau are in charge...

Look at this: he thinks you think the Royal ALBERTA Museum, the Art Gallery of ALBERTA, the ALBERTA project to renovate the Federal Building or the majority ALBERTA paid Metro Line are proof of what the Government of CANADA did under Harper.

Well, in a way, they are, I guess. Great point, moagoof. The Harper government did dick all for Edmonton, and all "money from heaven" for Calgary.

Jean had Fildebrandt suspended. There was an outcry from the party. Fildebrandt was almost immediately reinstated with conditions, until it turns out there were no conditions.

This is based on news reports, commentary, and my own observations. Graham Thompson's interview on CBC this afternoon was very telling. Especially interesting was the observation that based on the timing of the suspension it is highly unlikely Jean was able to consult with most of the Wildrose caucus, let alone hold a secret ballot vote as required by the party constitution.

The caucus said the social media manager would be paid for through Fildebrandt’s constituency association budget, with costs cut in other areas to ensure it is not an additional expense for taxpayers.
Jean had said Monday that Fildebrandt could be back in caucus in a matter of days if he agreed to abide by a set of undisclosed conditions.
Sources told Postmedia on Monday that the conditions included that Fildebrandt begin professional development training and anger management courses, have no access to media except in his riding and remain suspended until the end of the legislative sitting.

The caucus said the social media manager would be paid for through Fildebrandt’s constituency association budget, with costs cut in other areas to ensure it is not an additional expense for taxpayers.
Jean had said Monday that Fildebrandt could be back in caucus in a matter of days if he agreed to abide by a set of undisclosed conditions.
Sources told Postmedia on Monday that the conditions included that Fildebrandt begin professional development training and anger management courses, have no access to media except in his riding and remain suspended until the end of the legislative sitting.

The caucus release said the “multiple alleged conditions reported yesterday in the media were not accurate,” but Jordan Katz, Fildebrandt’s former campaign manager, said the terms that had been made public were correct.

On Tuesday evening, the caucus released a statement attributed to Fildebrandt also saying the multiple conditions originally reported in the media were not accurate.

Katz said the controversy has caused Jean to lose the trust of the grassroots in a way that could have repercussions on his leadership.

“Brian’s in a lot of trouble,” he said.

Feels a lot like a power struggle and Jean lost this battle. We'll see if Fildebrandt is back in his seat tomorrow or not. The session is over this week.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

DAVID HARRIGAN • 10 Hours Ago
It appears to me that Mr. Jean does not understand his base. Mr. Fildebrant does not understand that politics is more that grabbing headlines. But saddest of all, Mr. D’Entremont does not understand Sondheim.

He's quite serious. I'm confused as to why he (and the rest of the conservative outrage machine) is not freaking out about Saskatchewan recently having their credit rating dropped a peg. Surely Brad Wall is to blame for this horrific event and we should all be putting up posters of his face at golf tournaments as targets!

Brad Wall? Just the start. Alaska is forked (the free money since '82 is about to disappear), Texas has lost a ton of oil&gas jobs (just check out any Texan subreddit)... but hey right wingers put the blinders on and tell themselves it just "has to be all the lefty's fault".

The old forums, I would call them all a bunch of f*cking idiots. Today, I have more class

^Texas, Alberta, Sasketchewan, Newfoundland, Alaska, North Dakota, all hurting from the oil drop and continued low gas prices. Some, more than others (Texas is doing OK, it's big enough now lots of other industries like medical). Even so, when did Ontario last have a boom (aside from condos)? Other than real estate, why is nobody investing there, even though the dollar is down giving them a 20 percent labor cost advantage versus two years ago, and the federal government dishing out subsidies? Why did we just post a huge export deficit, even though the supposedly to blame evil Dutch disease, caused by evil Albertas oil exports, is gone? Nobody wants to invest in Ontario business, it's full of silly regulations and taxes, terrible business unfriendly government, and everyone knows, with that massive and rapidly growing debt burden they have, their taxes are only going to go up even more. Alberta will be back, our looney left experiment is a one term tragedy, oil or gas prices will return in time (they always have), but Ontario's leaders are the f*cking idiots, and they have nobody left to blame anymore.

Brutal, Ontario is now paying $1billion every month in interest. That's a brand new hospital ever month. Or a full LRT line every 5 months:

This is frightening because interest rates are at record lows, and even a small rise will push the province’s obligations — and corresponding payments — to even higher levels. According to the report, a one percentage point increase would add another $350 million a year to repayments, more than the budgets of the Ministries of Labour and Aboriginal Affairs.

The situation puts the Liberals in a perverse squeeze. A stronger economy would almost certainly produce higher interest rates, tightening the noose they’ve made themselves. In effect, the government — while professing to seek growth — needs a slow economy to keep its interest payments manageable.”

...

It can only increase as the debt grows, along with the cost of repaying lenders. Ontario is living on its credit cards, and they’re close to maxed out. The Liberals may eventually pay the price in terms of voter anger, but Ontarians will be paying, and paying heavily, long after that.

If that isn't a lesson why we can't just let the NDP (and the PC's before them post Klein) borrow endlessly, I don't know what is. We are going down the exact same path, and will get there quicker than people realize.

http://www.torontosun.com/2016/07/19...ed-to-spendingAt 39.4%, Ontario’s debt burden, measured by ratio of net debt to GDP, was second only to that of Quebec (50.1%) in 2014-15.Ontario’s net debt per person was $20,806 in 2014-15, compared to $22,591 in Quebec. In contrast, net debt per person was $8,387 in B.C., and net assets per person were $3,168 in Alberta in 2014-15.

Her approval rating, once as high as 40%, now sits at 18%. It’s the lowest Forum has ever measured for an Ontario Liberal premier since it began polling in 2011.

In fact, if a provincial election was held tomorrow, Patrick Brown’s Progressive Conservative Party would capture a minority government, according to the survey..

http://www.torontosun.com/2016/07/19...ed-to-spendingAt 39.4%, Ontario’s debt burden, measured by ratio of net debt to GDP, was second only to that of Quebec (50.1%) in 2014-15.Ontario’s net debt per person was $20,806 in 2014-15, compared to $22,591 in Quebec. In contrast, net debt per person was $8,387 in B.C., and net assets per person were $3,168 in Alberta in 2014-15.

Her approval rating, once as high as 40%, now sits at 18%. It’s the lowest Forum has ever measured for an Ontario Liberal premier since it began polling in 2011.

In fact, if a provincial election was held tomorrow, Patrick Brown’s Progressive Conservative Party would capture a minority government, according to the survey..

Terrible when rural areas are choosing to turn the power off!

Interesting article. Thanks for posting it.

Key to any discussion on government debt (as opposed to any other entity lacking taxing powers), is the good old net debt determination, but beyond what Klein always used. So who owns the Ontario debt? Who is receiving the interest payments?

Also, should government's own assets that usually function quite well in the private sector.

What appears interesting is that the Ontario government seems to be pursuing an extreme-right-wing approach to fiscal management. An extreme right wing approach to creating small government, would be to run up debt until it forces divestiture of all productive assets and the eventual reduction, and likely privatization, of public services (think Alberta in the 1990s.) The wealthy, on the right, would also then pick up the artificially low priced debt as well, ensuring a large chunk of all future taxpayer earnings flow into their hands.

What appears interesting is that the Ontario government seems to be pursuing an extreme-right-wing approach to fiscal management.

No, spending way more than you earn, giving civil service unions whatever they want (even subsidizing their legal costs with respect to barganing), raising taxes, is left wing, not right wing. Klein, our last fiscally conservative premier, reduced the debt (Even in a time of low oil prices), he didn't increase it like Wynne is doing. Here is who owns Ontario's debt:

Mostly Canadian bond holders, which will be pension funds, banks and similar. Its a brutal situation Ontario is in, I don't envy whoever replaces Wynne, even if interest rates don't rise its an ugly situation that is going to take decades to fix. If it isn't fixed, it just keeps getting worse, $1b per month out the door with nothing to show for it, is not sustainable for any province.