HortusMatris:nmemkha: HortusMatris: nmemkha: I find Atheists interesting. They dismiss anything that does not fit their narrow worldview out-of-hand and are generally mocking and condescending to the views of others.

[transitionculture.org image 333x500]

Opinions can't be strawmen since they are subjective my nature. I did not couch my statement as fact, merely observation.

Oh, so you're just trolling then. My bad.

If you consider the statement of views and opinions to be trolls then I guess I am.

me texan:...are you so afraid of something you cannot believe or so angry that you don't want to let people find calming words about their own death, even if it is misguided? What's the harm in letting others have their own beliefs, even you must acknowledge that after death it wont matter and wont change the outcome of their beliefs they hold while alive?

Simply put, because they expect to be able to legislate MY life according to their superstition. In extreme cases, they (Arab Muslims, Repub-wiccans) expect to be able to subjugate entire genders of individuals (women) according to their superstitions.

Now let me ask you a question: If your "ghod" is real, why would "he" hide "his" existence? Faith? Seems to me that having faith in "his" goodness and omnipotence would be even more of a test, were the question of "his" existence answered in the positive. According to the book that's bandied about here in the U.S, "he" is the penultimate negligent parent, leaving Adam and Eve alone with Satan (or one of his agents, according to which sub-set of christian you are,) and then blaming them for the results of their ignorance, coupled with the subterfuge of "his" enemy, and his own neglect. Not only punishing them, but all of humanity.

Some "ghod". Why worship a "deity" with such a problem with personal responsibility? What sentence in any gospel begins, "When Jesus' workday was ended..."?

If you god claims to be "The Truth", why hide? Do you not know what hiding the truth is called?

pottie:I remember heaven. She was a petite blonde with eyes the color of a spring morning. She had freckles on her nose and an infectious smile. She is the one I will always regret losing, the one that haunts my dreams and makes me melancholy even on the brightest day. I remember heaven.

Most religious people believe in spirituality because they have been taught it or claim to have experienced it. Most atheist/skeptics/agnostics/etc disbelieve in spirituality because they either haven't experienced it or they don't trust the motives of those who teach it. So it's either you lack the critical thinking ability to see through someone trying to get money out of you OR you think you're so smart that anything that exists outside the scope of your monkey brain can't possibly exist.

It's like we all live in a box without windows or doors or any significant evidence that there is anything outside the box. There are people in the box who make a nice living telling the other people about the wondrous things outside the box and there are other people who adamantly claim there is nothing outside the box because they personally can't see anything. Neither one has any effect over the true nature of whether there is anything outside the box or not.

In this particular case, I'm pretty skeptical. The author's view of the afterlife comes straight from culture and may as well have been painted in watercolor by someone's religious aunt in the Midwest. However, our understanding of the Universe and the way we perceive it is very limited. There is no reason to shut off any possibility of spirituality (which may be discovered as advanced science, or may be actual supernatural existence) just because we can't quantify it now.

Personally, I hope there is more to existence than the cold physical laws of the Universe. I'm not willing to kill anyone over it, but I try to keep an open mind.

nmemkha:It was a question. All of the Atheists I have met act the way I describe (including you btw) and he countered those are "assholes". I have yet personally meet an Atheist who doesn't act in this manner so described so I asked if their was a difference. My question was snarky but also legitimate.

You know what the other constant in all of those situations is? It's entirely possible that you bring up religion in such a confrontational manner that you get the reaction you seem to be expecting, and are probably aiming for.

Epicedion:nmemkha: Like I said, I have never met one who does not act in the manner described.

Considering you were acting like you described, it's rather hypocritical for you to complain so loudly.

nmemkha: I find Atheists interesting. They dismiss anything that does not fit their narrow worldview out-of-hand and are generally mocking and condescending to the views of others.

This is my original statement. Please explain how I am acting as I described. I do not discount science one bit. Nor am I mocking for science. Nor do I mock Atheists for their views as they are completely rational. I believe they are missing the "big picture", but I don't bash anyone with my Bible here or anywhere else.

BraveNewCheneyWorld:You really failed hard in hooked on phonics, didn't you? I said it wasn't scientific, but I also said that the reason for dismissal many people present here isn't scientific, only that they dismiss established science so they can find some gap where their preconceived notions can be coddled.

I pointed out that, due to your complete ignorance of science, how your argument was a complete strawman.

You made claims about facts where there are none. You implied that we were denying evidence when we refused to consider this anecdote to be anything more than an anedote.

You are attacking the fact that most of us (as I pointed out, we are not a group) use the scientific method to determine what claims we consider valid ... but you soundly demonstrate that you do not understand the scientific method.

Your arguments are made from emotion. You like to pretend that they are reasonable but they have no evidence to support them.

I doubt the human interpretations of experiences like these, mainly because every one I've ever heard was from a person who was already a Christian, or reared in church but "fell away" as an adult. Their (and our) understanding of the genuine experience just might be tainted by what they already know. Where are the near-death experiences from people who have never been to church, or never knew about Christianity? Where are the converted Muslims, Jews, or Zoroastrians who became Christians after their own NDE's? Good on this man who reaffirmed his faith as a result of his experience; I don't denigrate him for that -- although I have no reason to disbelieve NDE's, I do doubt anyone who uses these as examples of proof of one religion or another.

miscreant:You know what the other constant in all of those situations is? It's entirely possible that you bring up religion in such a confrontational manner that you get the reaction you seem to be expecting, and are probably aiming for.

That's EXACTLY why I crawled up his ass and not others. I have no problem with religious people as long as they don't act like douches about it.

It was a question. All of the Atheists I have met act the way I describe (including you btw) and he countered those are "assholes". I have yet personally meet an Atheist who doesn't act in this manner so described so I asked if their was a difference. My question was snarky but also legitimate.

I guess you answered question.

LOL ... caught in a lie and still squirming eh?

Isn't that just like a religious person?

/It is just "a question" so don't you dare suggest that I am calling all religious people liars!!!

Lie? Not in this case and I try not to, but I lie all the time. We all do. Its part of the human condition. I do try not to.

I am not a "holier than thou" Christian. I'm a miserable sack like the rest of you.

Who likes to call all atheists assholes and then deny it by saying "it was just a question".

Like I said, I have never met one who does not act in the manner described.

I think that says more about you than it does about all of these atheists you've met. I'm not an athiest, and I'd probably be an asshole to you, too, just based on the way you're behaving here.

My interpretation of the article is that he went into another dimension. Some may attach a religious aspect to it and call it heaven. Or there could be an explanation that fits into current physics theories.

Could it be that our existence on earth is just a manifestation in this dimension of an existence the spans multiple dimensions? Could his "life after death" experience be his soul/being/whatever being returning to another dimension so his experiences here could be merged with his experiences in other dimensions?

I have no answers, obviously.

/Not a physicist//Yeah, I'm into pop physics///Enough to make me think I know what I'm talking about

BraveNewCheneyWorld:czetie: In the entire documented history of near death experiences, out-of-body experiences, visit-to-heaven experiences, etc., nobody has ever come back knowing some objective fact that they couldn't previously have known. Not even something as trivial as the fact that open-mined neurosurgeons have placed a piece of paper on top of one of the shelves in the operating theater that says "If you can read this, you are having a real out-of-body experience".

Except for the cases where people can describe their surgery and conversations the doctors had, yeah, there's absolutely none.

Were their brains and ears not in the room when the surgery took place? Holy cow, that's even more amazing than the OBE.

The brain floods the body with dopamine and serotonin when it starts to die. Seems to me that he was hopped up on the body's natural goofballs. And how could he possibly know that any of this experience happened while his brain was "turned off"? It could've happened just before he slipped into a coma, or just as he came out of it.

He even comments on that in TFA - he says he envies people the feeling of security they have that they're sure there is an afterlife and a God.

Except no one is 100% completely sure, anyone who says they are is full of shiat. When you're sure of something you don't worry about it. When you're sure of something it rarely crosses your mind. There are millions of people who will buy this crap if only to make a tiny bit of their worries go away.

It was a question. All of the Atheists I have met act the way I describe (including you btw) and he countered those are "assholes". I have yet personally meet an Atheist who doesn't act in this manner so described so I asked if their was a difference. My question was snarky but also legitimate.

I guess you answered question.

LOL ... caught in a lie and still squirming eh?

Isn't that just like a religious person?

/It is just "a question" so don't you dare suggest that I am calling all religious people liars!!!

Lie? Not in this case and I try not to, but I lie all the time. We all do. Its part of the human condition. I do try not to.

I am not a "holier than thou" Christian. I'm a miserable sack like the rest of you.

Who likes to call all atheists assholes and then deny it by saying "it was just a question".

Like I said, I have never met one who does not act in the manner described.

I think that says more about you than it does about all of these atheists you've met. I'm not an athiest, and I'd probably be an asshole to you, too, just based on the way you're behaving here.

What exactly am I doing that you disagree with? Please be specific as I am willing to admit and correct my faults if you can articulate them to me.

nmemkha:This is my original statement. Please explain how I am acting as I described.

You're making a blanket statement painting a sector of the population that you know is part of your audience as assholes. You're presenting it bluntly as if it's factual, and you're probably doing it explicitly to get a rise out of people. This pretty much makes you an asshole, on the same part of the spectrum as concern trolls.

me texan:Babwa Wawa: You're not going to know jack sh*t until you are dead. Dead-dead, not "turned-off dead". Anyone claiming certainty on the matter is either delusional or a charlatan. When you've got a book deal like TFA, I'm banking on the latter.

Just the fact that he didnt "Die Die" as you'd have it doesnt mean that just him surviving alone is a miraculous outcome. (notice, I didnt use the word "miracle"). As a fellow scientist by education, I found the article to be at the very least interesting and I have no reason to attack him or others for his change of belief based on his own individual observation.

You've posted twice in this discussion already - are you so afraid of something you cannot believe or so angry that you dont want to let people find calming words about their own death, even if it is misguided? What's the harm in letting others have their own beliefs, even you must acknowledge that after death it wont matter and wont change the outcome of their beliefs they hold while alive?

Epicedion:nmemkha: This is my original statement. Please explain how I am acting as I described.

You're making a blanket statement painting a sector of the population that you know is part of your audience as assholes. You're presenting it bluntly as if it's factual, and you're probably doing it explicitly to get a rise out of people. This pretty much makes you an asshole, on the same part of the spectrum as concern trolls.

I never called anyone an asshole. I never made an generalized accusatory statement.

It was a question. All of the Atheists I have met act the way I describe (including you btw) and he countered those are "assholes". I have yet personally meet an Atheist who doesn't act in this manner so described so I asked if their was a difference. My question was snarky but also legitimate.

I guess you answered question.

LOL ... caught in a lie and still squirming eh?

Isn't that just like a religious person?

/It is just "a question" so don't you dare suggest that I am calling all religious people liars!!!

Lie? Not in this case and I try not to, but I lie all the time. We all do. Its part of the human condition. I do try not to.

I am not a "holier than thou" Christian. I'm a miserable sack like the rest of you.

Who likes to call all atheists assholes and then deny it by saying "it was just a question".

Like I said, I have never met one who does not act in the manner described.

I think that says more about you than it does about all of these atheists you've met. I'm not an athiest, and I'd probably be an asshole to you, too, just based on the way you're behaving here.

What exactly am I doing that you disagree with? Please be specific as I am willing to admit and correct my faults if you can articulate them to me.

It's not up to me to fix you. Your whining voice comes through even in black and white text on the internet. Maybe you need a hobby.

nmemkha:nmemkha: I find Atheists interesting. They dismiss anything that does not fit their narrow worldview out-of-hand and are generally mocking and condescending to the views of others.

This is my original statement. Please explain how I am acting as I described. I do not discount science one bit. Nor am I mocking for science. Nor do I mock Atheists for their views as they are completely rational. I believe they are missing the "big picture", but I don't bash anyone with my Bible here or anywhere else.

Besides painting with a nice broad brush, you're statement claims that atheists have dismissed religion "out of hand", or without much thought. So you're dismissing their soul searching on the topic and acting as if everyone who rejects religion does so without consideration. I guarantee you that most atheists have given more thought to religion than the majority of religious people out there, especially considering the number of places in the world where being atheist can get you ostracized, if not killed. The comment is both bullshiat and patronizing. But you already knew that.

Magnanimous_J:Most atheist/skeptics/agnostics/etc disbelieve in spirituality because they either haven't experienced it or they don't trust the motives of those who teach it.

Contrarily, there are quite a number who have experienced it, and don't trust the motives of those who teach it as a result. I know a few who used to prophesy, speak in tongues, have visions, etc, who eventually stepped back and realized that all those experiences didn't actually mean what they previously thought they meant - but who fully understand how seductive that type of thinking is.

It was a question. All of the Atheists I have met act the way I describe (including you btw) and he countered those are "assholes". I have yet personally meet an Atheist who doesn't act in this manner so described so I asked if their was a difference. My question was snarky but also legitimate.

I guess you answered question.

LOL ... caught in a lie and still squirming eh?

Isn't that just like a religious person?

/It is just "a question" so don't you dare suggest that I am calling all religious people liars!!!

Lie? Not in this case and I try not to, but I lie all the time. We all do. Its part of the human condition. I do try not to.

I am not a "holier than thou" Christian. I'm a miserable sack like the rest of you.

Who likes to call all atheists assholes and then deny it by saying "it was just a question".

Like I said, I have never met one who does not act in the manner described.

I think that says more about you than it does about all of these atheists you've met. I'm not an athiest, and I'd probably be an asshole to you, too, just based on the way you're behaving here.

What exactly am I doing that you disagree with? Please be specific as I am willing to admit and correct my faults if you can articulate them to me.

It's not up to me to fix you. Your whining voice comes through even in black and white text on the internet. Maybe you need a hobby.

I had a client tell me about his death experience. He had a massive heart attack and was dead for about 5 mins before the defib restarted his heart. He said he knew what was happening but when he lost conciousness it was like someone turned off the lights. He said he didn't see anything on the other side and now that he had experienced death he wasn't afraid of it anymore.

miscreant:nmemkha: nmemkha: I find Atheists interesting. They dismiss anything that does not fit their narrow worldview out-of-hand and are generally mocking and condescending to the views of others.

This is my original statement. Please explain how I am acting as I described. I do not discount science one bit. Nor am I mocking for science. Nor do I mock Atheists for their views as they are completely rational. I believe they are missing the "big picture", but I don't bash anyone with my Bible here or anywhere else.

Besides painting with a nice broad brush, you're statement claims that atheists have dismissed religion "out of hand", or without much thought. So you're dismissing their soul searching on the topic and acting as if everyone who rejects religion does so without consideration. I guarantee you that most atheists have given more thought to religion than the majority of religious people out there, especially considering the number of places in the world where being atheist can get you ostracized, if not killed. The comment is both bullshiat and patronizing. But you already knew that.

You miss my point. They dismiss anything that does not meet the current scientific definition of "truth". None I have met are willing to consider anything spiritual. Further, this very thread started off with comment mocking religion.

stilted:Could it be that our existence on earth is just a manifestation in this dimension of an existence the spans multiple dimensions? Could his "life after death" experience be his soul/being/whatever being returning to another dimension so his experiences here could be merged with his experiences in other dimensions?

Of course it could. There are an infinite number of "possible" unfalsifiable scenarios. As I typically mention in these threads, I tend to favor the idea that our universe is really a pornographic computer simulation made by superintelligent hyperdimensional cuttlefish with an endoskeleton fetish. No one has been able to prove me wrong so far.

Martian_Astronomer:stilted: Could it be that our existence on earth is just a manifestation in this dimension of an existence the spans multiple dimensions? Could his "life after death" experience be his soul/being/whatever being returning to another dimension so his experiences here could be merged with his experiences in other dimensions?

Of course it could. There are an infinite number of "possible" unfalsifiable scenarios. As I typically mention in these threads, I tend to favor the idea that our universe is really a pornographic computer simulation made by superintelligent hyperdimensional cuttlefish with an endoskeleton fetish. No one has been able to prove me wrong so far.

It was a question. All of the Atheists I have met act the way I describe (including you btw) and he countered those are "assholes". I have yet personally meet an Atheist who doesn't act in this manner so described so I asked if their was a difference. My question was snarky but also legitimate.

I guess you answered question.

LOL ... caught in a lie and still squirming eh?

Isn't that just like a religious person?

/It is just "a question" so don't you dare suggest that I am calling all religious people liars!!!

Lie? Not in this case and I try not to, but I lie all the time. We all do. Its part of the human condition. I do try not to.

I am not a "holier than thou" Christian. I'm a miserable sack like the rest of you.

Who likes to call all atheists assholes and then deny it by saying "it was just a question".

Like I said, I have never met one who does not act in the manner described.

I think that says more about you than it does about all of these atheists you've met. I'm not an athiest, and I'd probably be an asshole to you, too, just based on the way you're behaving here.

What exactly am I doing that you disagree with? Please be specific as I am willing to admit and correct my faults if you can articulate them to me.

It's not up to me to fix you. Your whining voice comes through even in black and white text on the internet. Maybe you need a hobby.

Then your opinion is worthless to me, sorry.

I'm crushed but I suppose I'll have to find the will to go on with my life somehow...

nmemkha:It was a question. All of the Atheists I have met act the way I describe (including you btw) and he countered those are "assholes". I have yet personally meet an Atheist who doesn't act in this manner so described so I asked if their was a difference. My question was snarky but also legitimate.

It was a question. All of the Atheists I have met act the way I describe (including you btw) and he countered those are "assholes". I have yet personally meet an Atheist who doesn't act in this manner so described so I asked if their was a difference. My question was snarky but also legitimate.

I guess you answered question.

LOL ... caught in a lie and still squirming eh?

Isn't that just like a religious person?

/It is just "a question" so don't you dare suggest that I am calling all religious people liars!!!

Lie? Not in this case and I try not to, but I lie all the time. We all do. Its part of the human condition. I do try not to.

I am not a "holier than thou" Christian. I'm a miserable sack like the rest of you.

Who likes to call all atheists assholes and then deny it by saying "it was just a question".

Like I said, I have never met one who does not act in the manner described.

I think that says more about you than it does about all of these atheists you've met. I'm not an athiest, and I'd probably be an asshole to you, too, just based on the way you're behaving here.

What exactly am I doing that you disagree with? Please be specific as I am willing to admit and correct my faults if you can articulate them to me.

It's not up to me to fix you. Your whining voice comes through even in black and white text on the internet. Maybe you need a hobby.

Then your opinion is worthless to me, sorry.

I'm crushed but I suppose I'll have to find the will to go on with my life somehow...

Maybe you shouldn't expect them to consider nonsense terms. "Spirituality" and "spiritual" are weasel-words that aren't consistently defined. They fit whatever container the speaker wants to put them in.

Farking Canuck:"say "the jury's still out" when your world view is challenged" - We are not a group. We do not have a collective "world view". An anecdote is not challenging anything because it is not real evidence of anything.

I disagree. Atheists do constitute a "group", just as theists form a group. Particular beliefs may be different within those groups, but they can still be categorized as "groups", because when it comes to belief/disbelief in God, those views are held in common. And to say that belief in God, or disbelief in God, isn't part of a worldview, imo, is just incorrect.

Epicedion:nmemkha: None I have met are willing to consider anything spiritual.

Maybe you shouldn't expect them to consider nonsense terms. "Spirituality" and "spiritual" are weasel-words that aren't consistently defined. They fit whatever container the speaker wants to put them in.

What a crock of shiat. He may be a neurosurgeon, but he's no neuroscientist and he doesn't understand how the mind works. In a coma, the neocortex is not processing sensory input in any meaningful way, but it is not "inactivated." It is still functioning at a low level. It is also still communicating with the subconscious, which doesn't have language, but does have access to stimulate imagery and language in the neocortex. This is what dreams are all about.

this man went to the higher dimensions in store for us all. you can get a glimpse if you smoke DMT. i have never smoked DMT, not have i almost died, and i have gone to these places, thanks to some nice inter-dimensional beings that thought i was special.

No one. They're generally meaningless words. You could've said "blompablump" instead and made yourself approximately as clear. "Spirituality" seems to encompass everything from feeling good on a sunny day to communing with alien mind energy crystals.

It's becoming rather clear that you're just a moron. I'm sorry about this, but everything you write seems to have a slick layer of "not quite up to the level of discussion" smeared all over it, which considering the level of discussion is rather sad. Maybe you'll be reincarnated as something smarter in the future.

Well anyone who thinks "shouting down" others because they don't agree with their opinions is an asshole in my book.

/YMMV

After almost 2000 years of putting up with Christian bullsh*t and persecution people have a right to call you out on it. Believe whatever you want but keep it to yourself. Many religious people manage to do this quite easily. By your statements here it is apparent you are not one of those people... or you're a troll.

Either way you've just been smacked down by a guy who goes by Poppa Boner.

How does that make you feel?

I didn't realize that the internet was such serious business.

Relax, back away from the keyboard, and go outside before your blood pressure gets too high.

I know, its difficult when someone, somewhere doesn't believe exactly what you do. I'm not sure arguing on the internet will fix that.