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Author
Topic: America: It's Not Your Fault (Read 11493 times)

. . . . and of course I'm referring to the issues raised in Lwood's touchingly patriotic thread. I would have posted my comments in that thread, but I've been an AIDSMEDer long enough to know that getting caught up in the Right Wing Blizzard of Shit that Jakey (aka Jack) summons at the mere mention of 'America' is a fool's errand.

This real issue at the heart of Lwood's thread (though he wouldn't realise it) is not about two dead soldiers. I'm not here to pass comment of any sort on the faceless grunts who die in the meat grinder of Dubya's Iraq. I am mindful that one of the most respected members of AIDSMEDS lost his nephew in Iraq last year. These are real tragedies that leave ordinary people to suffer. Both Iraqi's and Americans.

I'm also aware that my own country Australia is a keen member of the Coalition of the Willing. That earnest assortment of nice white nations (with the notable exception of Japan) that answered the clarion call of Washington when a handful of Islamic extremists decided that Allah had called them to park a couple of Boeings on the upper floors of the WTC a few years back. I'm told that some worker bees at the Pentagon also came off second best that day.

With all of those qualifications out of the way, let's get down to the issue at hand and that's apportioning blame. The horrible reality for the Left is that the original causes of all this strife has in reality fuck all to do with America. On the contrary -- the real criminals in this are the Holier Than Thou Nations of Europe.

See, with small exception of the Great War and the League of Nations, America really only hit the world scene after the conclusion of World War II. US foreign policy in the last 60 years belies the their isolationist tradition. Armed with the A Bomb, Jesus, a veto on the Security Council and a distinct economic advantage, America blundered into the imperialist trap.

Right at the time that Europe was scrambling to get out of it.

So let's look at the state of play of various nations prior to 1950 shall we?

Before Iraq was Iraq, it was the British colony of Mesopotamia. Israel was the British protectorate of Palestine. Eqypt, yup - you guessed it, British. The economic muck hole of Rhodesia/Zimbabwe? British again! Vietnam? The French fucked that up. The same goes for Algeria, Rwanada and several other blighted African nations. East Timor belonged to the Portugese, most of what today is Indonesia was Dutch. The Germans had their immaculately gloved hand in parts of south western Africa. The list of colonial fuck ups by the Europeans is endless. Let's not even mention what the Spanish managed in Central and Southern America over 5 centuries.

With the greatest of respect to my Blog Sister Hermie (and Jean Paul aka Belgium) the Gory Shower of Stinking Death that has been the Congo/Zaire is the sole responsibilty of the Belgians. King Leopold committed atrocities in that part of Africa which defy description. Frankly, Belgians have a history of being complete bastards when it comes to dealing with the inhabitants of the hot countries.

America largely resisted this colonialist carry on, preferring to cloak itself in the cotton wool of isolationism. Granted there were a few issues in Latin America and the Carribean in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, but nothing on the scale that the Old World managed to clock up.

So it should be no surprise that when WWII ended and America was the only nation with the resources and the wherewithal to try and right the wrongs of the world, that the sins of centuries of European chauvanism would be slated home to them.

And Americans, ever trusting in their Manifest Destiny fell for it. 1000 years of European colonialist debt was purchased by a newly awakened US Empire. Back then of course, Washington convinced the American people that they were fighting communism. These days it's defending Old Glory from the predations of the Muslim Terrorist Rug Kisser Hordes. As a result thousands of American soldiers and tens of thousands of Afghani and Iraqi's die needlessly.

It should be the British (and the fucking French) who are paying for this. But it ain't. It's Sherry and Randy Randolfski of Buttfuck County Ohio who have mortgaged the life of their son instead.

Idiots.

Of course the real bright sparks of the last 60 years have been the New Zealanders. They realised in the 80's that America was on a hiding to nothing and backed out of the Alliance real quick. They invited Uncle Sam to shove his nuclear submarines up his arse and when threatened with exclusion from the elite, they opted to take their chances. It turned out to be clever thinking. My own country has to understand that which NZ worked out sometime back: that the military resources we have are better spent managing the internicine squabbles of the kava sodden peoples of the Pacific rather than worrying about the religious loonies of the Middle East.

Or the Mid West for that matter.

The reason that the whole world has turned to shit is not the fault of America. Nevertheless the responsibility for fixing it now falls to the Home of the Free. Uncle Sam stepped up to the plate in 1946 with no idea what he was getting himself into. He stumbled into Vietnam, and clearly didn't take the hint.

America should never have been in Iraq in the first place. Now, should they leave, the whole thing will collapse and destablise the Middle East (and the rest of the world) fatally. If they stay, much the same will happen. More and more of your soldiers will be sacrificed on the altar of Republican hubris. Just to satisfy the blood lust of people like Jerry Falwell, Tom Delay, Dick Cheney and our own Jakey. Is it worth it?

Americans shouldn't depend on Australia or any other of the "me too" minnow nations who were so eager to kiss Dubya's butt back in 2001 to hang around either. We know defeat when we smell it. Trust me, your loyal Aussie mates won't be far behind the Japanese who are leaving in the next three months.

Very well done. I guess for the Americans like me, we lose sight, we know the country is at war somewhere so we feel the need to back it. It's because this country is made up of immigrants that were so broke andunwanted in there own land they came here and made a good life. So the country was good to us, we feel responsible not to question it too much. Sad but true. I wouldn't trade my life here to go back to Palermo for anything. If I had to serve and die for this country I would. If my children were called(one of which is turning 18) they to would go. We got into this we need to figure out how to get out. But I guess if didn't stumble into that war we would all be speaking German and wearing those funny mustaches.

I have heard that when British colonialism was coming to an end, there was a conscious effort to draw national boundaries for former colonies to include multiple in-fighting groups into each "nation" so that they would all squabble amongst themselves rather than rise up to pose a threat to the Empire. It would appear that this doctrine has both worked and failed.

As for the innocence of the US...I am not so sure. We have had our fingers in a lot of coups and up the butts of a lot of puppets for a long time. We took Hawaii, for example, from the Hawaiians because no one stopped us and we kept it after WWII because of its strategic location. That particular coup was to facilitate the workings of the Dole pineapple plantations, by the way, so unfetttered capitalism might well be our oldest and most viscious internal demon.

I find it amazing, and I dont mean this in an insulting way, the same way we acquired Hawaii is the same way many nations acquired offshore lands and we find that acceptable. It's always been go forth and conquer. Since the dawn of man. It may not be right but it will not change. DNA is powerful. Instinct will always drive man and it will be our downfall.

"Love is always patient and kind. It is never jealous. Love is never boastful nor conceited. It is never rude or selfish. It does not take offense and is not resentful. Love takes no pleasure in other people's sins, but delights in the truth. It is always ready to excuse, to trust, to hope, and to endure whatever comes." - 1 Corinthians 13:4-7, adaptation in A Walk To Remember

Invading or migrating for economic reasons to other places around the globe is something "normal" in history. If our ape-like ancestors did not do it we would be still living somewhere in Africa. If the spanish did not cross the atlantic and colonise the "new" world some other nation would have done it. Perhaps the Russians (they had managed to get to Alaska) or the Japanese.

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... when I was young, I never needed anyone, making love was just for fun, those days are gone ... Eric Carmen (Raspberries)

Fighting for peace is a tricky business. I think the prime directive of Star Trek: to not interfere is sometimes the better course of action. Unfortunately, inactivity in this current world does not go unpunished for the powerful and rich. It makes matters worse if the powerful is also viciously attacked. Aid is tricky, try as we might to help: we supply the dictators with cash instead of the starving with food.

I go back to my favorite book "The Sparrow". Its a great example of the cost of interference, its about a group of people and the first discovery of extraterrestrial life. Earthlings arrive unannounced and they find two races: one docile with a high population and one rather vicious low population who are clearly the rulers. They teach the lesser race (whom they met first) how to grow their own food....seemingly helpful yes? However, the ruling race EATS the other race, controls their breeding and overall conception with their food production capabilities (or lack thereof). Suddenly the world is in crisis and war and bloodshed ensue, and their world is forever changed. The planet is irrevocably altered to a group of vegans rulers with not allot of smarts and no idea of population control. Is it a better world? Is it a sustainable world?

Do we ever really look at the sheer amount of financial aid that flows from the U.S.? Its astronomical, and yet everyone forgets that until there's a crisis. Was America protecting its interests in Iraq.....sure...undeniably true but its never black and white.....find me a country that doesn't look after its own interests.

I personally wish one war was waged at a time, and I wish Iraq could have waited until Afganistan was under control....but like Matty said, to leave now is unthinkable.

Well Matty, through all the barf and poop, I have to thank you for taking the time to let people here know what I am thinking most of the time.

I also would like to stay out of the other thread, as I really like Jake, and his fiestyness, but his reasoning refuses to take into account the real issues here. Most notably…… One of the Bin Ladens, is the accountant for the Bush family. Secondly, we are the ones that placed Saddam in his place of dominance in 1983, for which we can thank another Konservative called Ronnie Ray Gun.

This country was settled by a bunch of outcasts that were too conservative for the Church of England, and wanted to “Penticostalize” that church, but instead found themselves thrown onto small ships and sent off to America to savagely brutalize the natives and presto….. now we call this nation our own. Of course we are all aware of the same thing that happened down under, so nobody here has a clean historical slate.

What does need to be said, is that what Matty has very carefully and very skillfully placed here is of course the unvarnished truth, and in that I am so very grateful. Having been yanked out of this country at the ripe old age of five, and being carried off to some “DARK” African Country that was ruled unmercifully by the English; I have seen first hand the work of Colonialism, and all the debauchery and malfeasance that brings to a people that are living right inside the earth, and in concert with their surroundings. I saw the first day of Independence from the English overlords that made Tanganyika what it was then, and when they became independent, changed their name to Tanzania. I still to this day, think they named it what they did because white English settlers couldn’t pronounce it correctly. Then my parents came back to the United States to keep the passport current, and upon our return in 1963, moved to Kenya where we also witnessed Independence from the English overlords. A very interesting thing happened that day. We were all packed up, and the American Embassy had made a tentative appointment to fly us out if things turned sour by the end of the day, but along about 10 in the morning, a kid came to the door, and insisted that we all go to the town soccer pitch, where the day’s celebration was just about to start. They insisted that my mother, (the church and school choir director) must be present to lead them in the first public performance of the Kenya National Anthem, declaring the town independent. When we got there, there were a number of Maasai women who had come for the celebration, carrying large empty baskets. I inquired with one of the teachers as to the significance of the empty baskets, and she embarrassingly explained to me that they had come to get their independence and take it home to their families.

The anthem for the day, the country and the people, which is still the anthem to this day is a simple saying ….. “Uhuru na Uumoja” which translated simply means Independence through pulling together.

OK, so I got off the subject of killing and of dominance, but please forgive me if I am not impressed with the lies and deceit of the current and past governments of the United States. I have so little respect for anyone in government, that I sometimes truly feel like a citizen of a foreign country. Sorry all of you Americans of this site, I am just a misfit here.

Truly, the United States is a very confused country and to still place the Native people in such places like a sun parched Siberia, and then say we held up all the treaties is so very embarrassing that I cannot come to accept any of this current crap. When you build a country on the blood of others, you will pay the price with your blood.

All the deaths in Iraq aside, we have not even begun to pay the price for our past in-discretions!

Just Sayin……………………….

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The Bible contains 6 admonishments to homosexuals,and 362 to heterosexuals.This doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals, It's just that they need more supervision.Lynn Lavne

While I would say matty is spot on, the fact is America has been going empirical long before WWII.Unlike anything in history, America started by buying lands. Besides the Louisiana Purchase there was also the buying of Florida from Spain,$15 million for the South West from Mexico and then Seward's folly (Alaska) in1867. In 1898 as NYC became a reality America annexed Hawaii.

More American's need to be taught the statement of former Marine Corps General Smedley D. Butler made in 1931.

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I helped make Mexico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the national City Bank boys to collect revenue in. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers... I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916 . I helped make Honduras "right" for American fruit companies in1903. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints

Not to mention other land grabs after the Spanish American War, all way before WWII.

This is the nature of countries and I suspect China in the next few decades will take over. Rome only lasted so long and they thought they were the next best thing since sliced bread- or what ever was the best thing since slicing bread wasn't the thing.CheersJohnny

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"You shut your mouthhow can you sayI go about things the wrong wayI am human and I need to be lovedjust like everybody else does"The Smiths

As a first generation American, youngest of eleven children, whose parents were immigrants from Ireland and I’m the only child that was born after they both had become American citizens, I have to say I’m sick and tired of all the hits that “WE Americans” take from the rest of the world. What I refer to as pussies!

Remember one thing, it was those assholes that attacked us, we didn’t attack them. They came looking for trouble and now they have it. Where is the United Nations in this fight for world peace? Where is the support from the other free nations of the world from our allies against terrorism?

Jake might be a little too harsh at times but no more than some of you are at expressing your sexual encounters and proclivities. . How nice to try and play the moral card when you don’t have the backbone to stand up and fight for what is right. I’m not going to get into details, however I've had brothers that fought and been wounded in Korea, Vietnam, the first Gulf war and have lost four nephews and a niece to this war and Afghanistan that the fanatics started.

FREEDOM ISN'T FREE. With what those bastards did so brutally to those two young soldiers I hope that our military wakes up and goes in and wipe the fuckers out. We (Meaning America) have been kissing the worlds political ass for way too long. This is not the time to step down, or retreat, it’s the time to step up and go after those religious fanatics.

War and politics are two different animals. Politically this country is broken in two. That was achieved by the religious right wing of the Republican Party it’s taken them years of practice, however they have succeeded. Example: The president going for a constitutional amendment against gay marriages. While a third of the world is going to sleep hungry every night of the year. Its called distraction!

Jake/Jack, I'm honored to call my fellow American. He as an American has a right to his opinion. I might disagree with him at times, but usually he’s not that far off the mark.

Well I may not have gotten a clear concise point across tonight but I sure as Hell feel a lot better. And one more thing. For all Americas shortcomings, for all the ugly American jokes, for all the things that are wrong with our health care system and whatever, for all the fools we vote into office, I wouldn’t change places with anyone of you. I dislike Bush with a passion. But I have to say that I’m so glad that he was in office when the towers were hit and not the idiot Gore or Kerry. My problem with Bush is that he lies when the truth would be better used. He’s losing the war because he’s not being honest with the people.

It’s so easy to sit here and judge America. Why not try judging the religious fanatics for a change?

Isn't that the problem? There is an attempt to redefine us as theocratic by fundamentalist Christians who wish to take it to the Fundamentalist Islamics and vice-versa. It would be far better to work toward freedom of religion for all and freedom from religion in our goverment. Just my humble opinion...

Matty, thanks for the concise history lesson. I really couldn't agree more. Neo-Collonialism, Neo-Conservatism, Neo-Soul, Nu-Metal, Rock (rock doesn't think of itself as neo but it is)....someone needs a new idea!!!

For those of you who don't live in the US I just have to be clear. Bush won because of the Supreme Court. He lost the popular vote...no question. And the last election he won 51% to 49% based on fear (of nuclear attack and gays). He then called it a mandate. There is no mandate in the US, there is a power grab. It's had pretty bad consequences. I mourn it every day when I listen to the news. I worry how the world views us. I often don't think they look at us and see nearly half the country worried to death. The polls show dissatisfaction with the war currently around 65%. Bush may have won the election, but he's just lost in every other way.

Anyway, what are we going to do?

Right now. There isn't anything we can do. The game is currently over. The ham-fisted war will continue. Of course we support our troops, how could we not? But on it goes.

I look at Iraq and I try and think of solutions. To me, obviously, a security force needs to be introduced that the Iraqi people can trust....muslims preferably. The idea just creates more problems as Iraqis hate all their neighbors and visa versa. Maybe Egyptians would work. And even crazier...Palestinians (they'd probably be happy to hang in Iraq for awhile and make some dough). Jordan??? Indonesia? Who would be stupid enough to enter this mess, but maybe if we said, 'we're going to leave, what do YOU want to happen with your region???' they might reconsider.

It's a mess, but it's past time to make some hard decisions. The Bush admin. isn't going to make them. They're not going to renogotiate their 'coallation'. That leaves us in the current hell.

What are we going to do? There's nothing we can do until November. If the landscape of congress changes there might be some changes in Iraq. Until then it's moot.

What can I do? Matty, my state voted a great senator into congress in 2004 replacing a republican. I was one who voted for him. I'm proud of both our senators. They'd both like to rethink the Iraq war, but they're not in power. I guess I'll ask, what more can I do???

Terry I too am a first generation Irish American. I think maybe because I grew up in NYC where I was exposed to so much anti NY feelings not from foreigners but people from my own country. On the whole Americans seem to act like sheep- take the prohibition for a start. On the the other hand the rest of the world buys into America wholeheartedly. Why they complain about our culture being forced on them, they need to take it up with their politicians.

When I lived in Holland, McDonald's was going to buy an old farm house and turn it into a fast food joint. The effect would be that the locals fast food places couldn't compete. Besides this greasy fries and tasteless cheap hamburgers weren't on the Dutch diet. Needless to say the locals lost because big money prevailed.

I agree with you that we shouldn't be held to a higher bar than anyone else. Nowhere except here did I see any mention on how Mexico treats it's illegal immigrants. But then Mexico isn't on a soap box about human rights. America went after Iraq - every week it was a different reason, that alone says something. Now we are harping about human rights and freeing Iraqi's- yet we have the biggest trade deficit with China who not only is known for it's treatment of dissidents but has been occupying Tibet illegally for over 50 years. As well as propping up governments that aren't the will of the people So which is it?Remember what the Clash said" you have the right to free speech..."Btw I had cousins in Viet Nam too and it totally fucked them up!CheersJohnny

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"You shut your mouthhow can you sayI go about things the wrong wayI am human and I need to be lovedjust like everybody else does"The Smiths

I think that most Americans are against the war in Iraq because this war is being lost or perhaps the benefits of winning it are meagre.

Almost everybody becomes a pacifist after loosing a war. Of course it is still to early to say whether the war in Iraq has been a total or partial disaster for US interests in the middle-east.

The real issues (which no one mentioned here) in the middle-east are basically two: 1. oil; 2. Israel. The irony is that the biggest supporters of Israelis in the US hail from the Democratic party!

Moreover, Democrats and Republicans don't really differ too much in foreign policy. Many seem to want to forget that it was during the Clinton administration that Belgrade was bombed and Serbia brought to its knees.

There is good and bad in every nation. Don't idealise pre-Columbian Americans! Human sacrifices of thousands of young male warriors were done in Mexico and were not less brutal than the Spanish Conquistadors.

War is bad and to be avoided always and at all costs. It produces death and sufferring. It hit my family close. Grandpa died in World War I in Dardenelles, Turkey. In World War II only mum and an uncle survived German bombing. Dad lost a leg in Cyprus during the partition of the island.

But then I am confused. What do you do to confront evil dictators? What would have happened to Europe during the Nazi terror is the US did not intervene military?

And yet at heart I still think that war should be avoided at all costs. Maybe I am naive. Just look what happened to the former Soviet Union!! The USSR had everything ... missiles, big army, etc Yet it crumbled down to pieces without a single American bullet being shot. They even removed the red flag and brought in again the old imperial Czar flag!

Sorry for my english ...

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... when I was young, I never needed anyone, making love was just for fun, those days are gone ... Eric Carmen (Raspberries)

If anyone really wants to see a "preview" of what is happening today, have a look at the film "The Battle of Algiers" from 1966. People here in the US wonder why the French are lukewarm about accepting Bush's foreign policy. Well, watch this film. They preceded us in Viet Nam and we didn't pay attention to their experience because many saw the French as poor warriors. They have preceded us in combating Islamic self-determinism. With a huge population of Islamic citizens, it would be foolhardy for the French to take on another war against the Islamic world when diplomacy is and always should be the first and most determined step. It seems to me that Bush just wanted a war....he is proud to describe himself as a "war president" and may have contributed to the fabrication of evidence of the failure of diplomacy to promote his war. Besides, the 911 attacks and Iraq are not related events, it has been shown, but in Bush's world, the two are intermingled. Also, there is speculation that this is a war of revenge for his father who was targeted for assassination by Saddam Hussein.

If I were to have the ability to interview a presidential hopeful, I would ask this: Do you believe in the Biblical account of Armaggedon? It seems that there are people in the US (and maybe elsewhere) who believe firmly in Armageddon's inevitability and will shape their policies as a form of self-fulfilling prophecy. I have actually heard quotes that going to war in the Middle East will bring it on earlier and then they will have their kingdom of God. Is that much different that expecting 72 virgins to await you after you explode your body for the cause? As evidence, fundamentalist Baptist Churches in NC at Christmas right after the Supreme Court gave Bush his first term boasted "Now we have our President. Next we will have our King."

Vietnam? The French fucked that up. The same goes for Algeria, Rwanda and several other blighted African nations.

Nope, Rwanda and Burundi belonged to the Belgium Empire. The French only came in, in the 1990s and yes, they fucked it up but yet again shouldn’t we differentiate between the actions of private arm dealers (such as the son of the then French president) and the public domain. Furthermore, one shouldn’t underestimate the enormous internal economic difficulties at the source of the conflict itself.

The list of colonial fuck ups by the Europeans is endless.

Quite right, but nobody would deny the part the CIA played in the murder of Lumumba. America has been present in Africa for much longer than you suggest: they were the last nation to support apartheid and they are much more present than the English in a former British colony such as Nigeria… ahh the oil thingy again.

Granted there were a few issues in Latin America and the Carribean in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, but nothing on the scale that the Old World managed to clock up.

I’d agree with you on the fact that Europe, especially Britain and France, has much to be blamed for the unsteady situation in Africa – both past and present. Yet, I’d like to think that political thought in the old continent has matured in a way that seems to elude the American leadership. The USA are at the forefront of any development in sciences, be it social or ‘hard’ sciences, and yet no other president on earth could get away with such simplistic political vagaries. I believe that America’s long-term resistance to the idea of class struggle (and of course to Marxism) makes it impossible for mainstream America to accept the idea that the present conflict in the world is class related, a matter of the rich and the poor really, rather than a clash of civilisation. And so the president is able to get away with his silly notion of axe of evil (I mean if we have to look at morality and religious issues, Bush’s glass house will surely be the first to crumble, what with his past indiscretions et al…).

I for one believe that many conflicts in the world have both internal and external roots. America is not to be blamed for every hotspot on earth. Yet the USA are the biggest player in the world, involved in every game that is played (as long as there are resources involved and there aren’t resources in Zimbabwe) and yet the country does not seem to be able to face up to the demons they helped create, among them OBL and S. Hussein. You cannot decently expect the rest of the world to take nicely to the fact that the father wined them while the son tries to exterminate them. It’s just too ludicrous for words.

Of course Bush's slogan of axis of evil is perhaps pure nonsense. But could not "class struggle" be also just bullshit? Did you travel to east europe? Try .... and you will see the mess the Communists left.

When I was a kid I remember all of us school children taken to salute in a sports stadium an eastern european dickhead. I don't know if he was Romania's Nicolai Caucescu or Yugoslavia's Josef Bros Tito.

I think that despite its BIG defects, America (and the English speaking world) is a success story. Its research in everything is oustanding - science, medicine etc .... You name it and it is there. I am sure that it is from the US that ultimately a cure for hiv/aids will be found. Of course there are the capitalist big pharma robbers who are making all the profit. And this is very sad and cruel. But I don't think that any part of the ex-communist world or the islamic world would do any differently. Perhaps they cannot even do such a thing because they don't even have the basic technology to do any research whatsoever. I hope that I am wrong. Who knows .... maybe India (with doctors trained in the UK) will do it.

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... when I was young, I never needed anyone, making love was just for fun, those days are gone ... Eric Carmen (Raspberries)

I love the way that long threads inevitably wind up in someones crotch or, more often, in someones ass.

I really just wanted to express some sympathy for the two young soldiers that were tortured to death and hacked up, and as I originally said, I was hoping that it would turn out differently. I figured that they would be paraded in front of the cameras for Propaganda like Vietnam POW's were , or maybe get rescued by some commando team like the other soldiers that were captured a few years ago. I figured that as American soldiers they would be worth a whole lot more alive than dead. I agree with of parts of the argument on both sides , especially the point that this had been brewing for decades and more than one cook has been stirring the pot...Unfortunately, the next administration is going to have this around their neck like a stone. Its no wonder there aren't any good candidates for the next election.

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"Fortunately, I Keep My T Cells Numbered For Just Such An Emergency" -Either Foghorn Leghorn or Johnny Cash

See? Isn't a conversation like this much more satisfying without the syrupy patriotism or the link to X internet news service that supposedly proves a point?

First up, my thanks to Anne. She quite rightly points out that Rwanda was a Belgian possession not a French one. In my defence all those weirdo European nations are squished in together. I mean if someone farts in Belgium they hear it in France. Frankly I can't tell an Austrian from a German or a Swede from a Norwegian. I guess that's why they put those little flags on the number plates of their Renaults.

Terry love, we get the point. You're angry. Problem is the rest of the world doesn't really give a shit that Americans are angry, and dropping bombs and levelling the pov countries isn't going to make 'em. You've got to get beyond the simplistic tub thumping if you want to roll the Europeans and the rest of America's critics in this debate. Jakey (and I love Jakey with a passion) may have a right to vent his cranky Texan views about how a couple of H-Bombs signed "suck on that camel-jockeys" would teach those rug kissing bastards a lesson but it doesn't mean he's contributed anything of value or worth to the debate.

Similarly, stuffing your ears with the flag and invoking the spirits of your dead male relatives who fell on the field of battle, whilst moving, doesn't really advance your cause any. My point is not too disimilar from yours. I get tired of hearing from the Europeans and others about how America's Responsible For Everything That Goes Wrong. You're not. That's the point I was making. In fact most of the fuck ups in the world are rightfully the property of centuries of European colonialism and it's intellectually dishonest for people to suggest otherwise.

I was waiting for the issue of Serbia and the Kossovars to come up. That's an excellent example of how America does the Right Thing in international politics. Clinton, for all his faults, was a masterful diplomat and an astonishingly intelligent man. Rather than go off half cocked and lay waste to Serbia, he managed to get NATO to do the job. Sure, America financed and paid for it, but it was a multi-lateral internation effort and by and large it was a success. The appallingly murderous repression of the Kossovar Albanians by Serbian bigots was stopped and contrary to the views of some, Belgrade was not flattened in the attempt.

I think Clinton will go down as one of the great American presidents. Ok, he was a bit of a dog and not always honest, but name one honest republican and Matty the Damned will point his bare arse to the sun. I mean you have to admire an American president who could finger some fat jewish chick who wasn't his wife in the Oval Office, get caught lying about it, survive impeachment and leave office with an approval rating that would have made Kennedy green with envy.

Don't get me wrong people, I'm no fan of American foreign policy of the last 60 years. Uncle Sam is guilty of some really nasty things. But there was some good stuff too. The Marshall Plan, for instance which rebuilt Europe after WWII. Granted, it served US interests in keeping Authoritarian Communism in it's place, but the wealthy, idle Europeans who today criticise America at every turn owe their privileged lifestyles to American dollars.

America, you need to lose the God's Chosen People mindset with which you approach these things. It hasn't worked for Israel or any of the Islamic states, why should it work for you? Pay close attention to the history of the last 1000 years. The answers to silence the nay-sayers lie therein.

The Marshall Plan, for instance which rebuilt Europe after WWII. Granted, it served US interests in keeping Authoritarian Communism in it's place, but the wealthy, idle Europeans who today criticise America at every turn owe their privileged lifestyles to American dollars.

I think you have a point. In Europe we did become wealthy and safe due to American "protection". The irony is that despite this many Europeans nowadays like to dislike America! But I am not part of them. I like Americans for many things.

It is very tempting for us Europeans to think that we are superior and do not need anybody because our old continent is full of ancient monuments, art, etc ... Of course we did not invent was the atom bomb (anyway Einstein was a German Jew who fled to America) and burgers and computers. But every ideology (good or bad) started here. Karl Marx (another German Jew!!) invented Marxism and Sigmund Freud (a german speaking Austrian Jew) laid the ideological basis for the sexual revolution.

I think that Europeans do not want to admit that they are not at the centre of the world as they used to be in the past. This is why many here on the other side of the Atlantic want to dislike the US. I think it is stupid.

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... when I was young, I never needed anyone, making love was just for fun, those days are gone ... Eric Carmen (Raspberries)

First, let me say that to believe that gross economic differences create conflict isn’t the same thing as saying that communism as it has been practiced in the USSR is the solution. One can ensure a healthy dose of wealth redistribution without making everyone a cooperative worker.

Secondly, I certainly wasn’t trying to convey some kind of pure and unadorned anti-Americanism. I too believe that the American system, while failing to generate a universal health system, also manages to produce the highest talents in the world, talents whom we are to thank for progress in many spheres of our lives.

My point was simply that ignoring a priori the socio-economic roots of conflict often allows for an acceptance of an alternative explanation, one that postulates a radical difference between human beings. I don’t think we, as inhabitants of this planet, obey to different rationalities, just to different material conditions. Everybody’s got values, something they hold dear, a piece of earth they call home, an ancestry they refer to as their forefathers… similarly I think, the quest for the suburban house with a picket fence is universally shared. Yes, the Quebecois wants the picket fence and to continue to speak to his neighbour in French over it, the Irish wants the fence and being able to pray Mary at Church on Sunday, the French wants his picket fence, the ability to eat at McDonald, and French cheese in his burger… and I assume that the Muslim wants the picket fence while planning his pilgrimage to Mecca. To assume that young Muslims blow themselves up in a virgins-seeking frenzy simply show lack of respect for the humanity that we all share, a lack of respect that can only fuel further violence. It isn’t the fact that the US is rich that I deplore, but the fact that the rest of the world is poor.

Anne… who is French but lives in South Africa, whose English is therefore shaky at times, particularly when she tries to use colloquial expressions which she doesn’t fully comprehend, who posted in the ‘I am infected forum’, hence doesn’t know whether it is proper for her to post here but who certainly enjoys reading the forums and learns a lot in the process.

Anne,I think you are correct in putting an emphasis on economic inequalities. But I don't think that it is just that. (In fact you did mention other causes). Greed, desire to dominate others etc have a share as well.

Sometimes the scars are so deep in history that only with heroic efforts that one can overcome these problems and heal. I have a polish friend (not my boyfriend) that utterly detests Russians. He tells me that it is part of his dna! The only solution would be forgiveness and yet he still hates them. Perhaps the solution would be to ignore it and hope that the next generation will forget.

I like these kind of debates. It is a distraction from my worries about Hiv. I hope mattthedamned starts other threads like this. He is provocative.

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... when I was young, I never needed anyone, making love was just for fun, those days are gone ... Eric Carmen (Raspberries)

Time heals all wounds. A generation that doesn't know doesn't hurt. My generation has always had a great respect for German engineering. Past generations here hated the germans. It's all about a persons place in time and what they have been exposed to. Part of it is our isolation. having other nations connected in one landmass forces people to get used to other peoples ways. here it's very different. when immigrants come here they get used to our ways. There are no real borders. Yes, Canada and Mexico, but Canada differs slightly, I mean if they didn't say eh at the end of a sentence you would never know the difference; and half of Mexico is already here.

[America, you need to lose the God's Chosen People mindset with which you approach these things.]

What we need is stronger separation of religion (All religions) and politics! Theres no difference between the Republicans or the Democrats parties in this country. They are all one in the same. Rich and big corporation minded. The differences/problems we have are the Religious Far Rights agenda to the Extreme Liberal Lefts agenda.

THATS THE PROBLEM AMERICA HAS.

[Don't get me wrong people, I'm no fan of American foreign policy of the last 60 years.]

That just about covers the extent of time that America has had any foreign policy.

[ I am mindful that one of the most respected members of AIDSMEDS lost his nephew in Iraq last year.]

[Similarly, stuffing your ears with the flag and invoking the spirits of your dead male relatives who fell on the field of battle, whilst moving, doesn't really advance your cause any.]

I only mentioned my siblings and relatives military service because you (Matty) mentioned Rodneys nephews death. I usually choose to keep most personal things to myself.

Terry (Who might be ashamed of somethings hes done but not ashamed to wave the flag and live free as a Proud American Citizen.)

I think what upsets people is arguing "ideals" versus "practice" when discussing America. I doubt that anyone would deny the "ideals" set forth in the "Constitution" and "The Bill of Rights" are without equal. I also doubt that anyone would deny that America does not always practice what it preaches. Ideals are difficult to obtain,even in the abstract. We continue to be disappointed when our American ideals are abused. Yet we continue to hope that these ideals can somehow be achieved. Only time will tell.

As I said before,"those who do not learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them"

Time heals all wounds. A generation that doesn't know doesn't hurt. My generation has always had a great respect for German engineering. Past generations here hated the germans. It's all about a persons place in time and what they have been exposed to.

This is so true. My parents do not like Germans because they lost some of their loved ones in WWII. But I don't have any hard feelings against Germans just because my parents are like that.

Now for Terry ...You said that "what we need is stronger separation of religion (all religions) and politics!"

This is correct but imprecise and can be just another empty slogan like many far-right religious stupidities. The thing is that when you look at the Constitution you will realise that it is based on religious beliefs much more than you think. One simple example: killing is a crime.

What Americans did was a separation of Church and State & not separating law from religion!! The reasons are obvious. At that time there were so many different denominations that the old European model of unity between church & state was impossible. (For example the Church of England in the United Kingdom with the King being the governor, or Orthodoxy in Russia with the Czar having so much power). The american settlers wanted to avoid this.

I have to agree with Matt that the idea of being some sort of "Chosen people" remains in the subconcious of many Americans. What Matt did not explain is why the US decided to abandon the usual isolationist policy. (Usually people with the Chosen People mindset tend to close on themselves).

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... when I was young, I never needed anyone, making love was just for fun, those days are gone ... Eric Carmen (Raspberries)

Do I support any of the policies of the present administration...zero,none,nada. Do I believe the policies of the present administration are set by corporate America...you betcha. Do I believe the present administration plays the radical religious right like a fiddle...without doubt. You will need to get behind me when it comes to bashing the good ol' U S of A. But,before you jump on that bandwagon,you might want to visit the sins of your colonial forefathers,as my dear socialist friend Matty points out. Leave the holier than thou to the evangelicals.

Remember my fine fickle friends...our defense of you pays for your healthcare. Your government would have to get that defense budget from somewhere. Where do you think they get ours?

the Irish wants the fence and being able to pray Mary at Church on Sunday

The Irish in the Republic pretty much gave that up in the early 90's. When they started finding out what the Christian Brothers were up to- buggering the alter boys- as well as when Mary Robinson banned discrimination against gays. And while there still are incidents there, you can find the same things in the Nederlands- nothing is perfect.CheersJohnny- whose been with alot more Irishmen than firemen!

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"You shut your mouthhow can you sayI go about things the wrong wayI am human and I need to be lovedjust like everybody else does"The Smiths

I only mentioned my siblings and relatives military service because you (Matty) mentioned Rodney’s nephews’ death. I usually choose to keep most personal things to myself.

Indeed I did, my love. I was aware of the fact that my original comments were related to a potentially flameworthy topic so from the get go I wanted to stress that I wasn't slinging off at dead American soldiers. In addition I wanted to note that I was sensitive to the fact that people in this very forum have lost loved ones in the Iraqi conflict, in particular Roddles of whom I very fond.

In the same way I'm extraordinarily fond of you too, Terry.

However, dead soldiers are something that we do very well down here in Oz. Our national identity is almost entirely constructed from the remains of dead soldiers. Contary to popular belief, Australia doesn't view itself as a country of former convicts, rather we see ourselves (rightly or wrongly) as a Proud and Honourable Warrior Nation. In the last 100 years whenever there has been a war, Australia is only too keen to get involved. We were the only nation that followed the US into Vietnam.

In fact our most solemn National Day is ANZAC Day, when we commemorate the stinging defeat we received at the hands of the Turks when we invaded (along with the Bristish and the Kiwis) a small cove in the Dardenelles. On this basis of this we have forged a potent national mythology that we call the ANZAC Tradition.

But I digress.

[Don't get me wrong people, I'm no fan of American foreign policy of the last 60 years.]

That just about covers the extent of time that America has had any foreign policy.

My point exactly Terry. I originally noted that up until the end of WWII, America was loathe to get involved in the squabbles of other nations, especially those of the Europeans.

What we need is stronger separation of religion (All religions) and politics! There’s no difference between the Republicans or the Democrats parties in this country. They are all one in the same. Rich and big corporation minded. The differences/problems we have are the Religious Far Right’s agenda to the Extreme Liberal Left’s agenda.

THAT’S THE PROBLEM AMERICA HAS.

I don't really see how much stronger the separation between church and state in the US can be. Let's compare that with Australia. We have a vague constitutional provision that no religion can be "established" as a state religion in the style of the Church of England or those nutcases who run Iran, but outside of that religion can cross over into the public domain as it likes.

Christian scripture is taught in Australian public schools (Islam and the other infidel religions are not) whereas you can't even pray in an American school. Sittings of Australian Parliaments (state and federal) are opened with what christian "Lord's Prayer" and so on.

And yet in Oz we have nothing like the potent religiosity that permeates American public discourse. This has nothing to do with consitutional provisions divorcing the supreme personality from the public realm, but rather that Australians are an intensley secular people. Religion is something we do at Christmas, for funerals, weddings and baptisms. People of strong religious beliefs are viewed with intense suspicion down here.

But,before you jump on that bandwagon,you might want to visit the sins of your colonial forefathers

I remember sitting in a pub with some friends and a young American back-packer called Sandy. He was from Idaho. He was witty and charming, genial and quite pleasant company. After a while we were joined by a German back-packer called Alfred. Within seconds he was all over the American kid, as though Sandy had masterminded the invasion of Iraq himself and quite possibly fired shots from a grassy knoll some years previously. Despite Sandy's best efforts to explain that he was not at all keen on the war, Alfred would have none of it. It was dreary and for Sandy, quite unfair. He was no war mongering far right wing christian loony, but was understandly proud of his country. When Alfred declared Americans to be guilty of genocide, I could take no more.

I suggested to Alfred that he must have over looked that whole jew-killing thing the Germans indulged themselves in during the 1940's. Showing considerably less grace than Sandy, Alfred burred up, yelled something about the past being the past and stomped off.

And therein lies my another of my many points. Sandy was well versed in American history and issues, but considerably less so in modern world history. Alfred the sneering kraut was easily dismissed provided one was able to point the to legion of German indiscretions over time.

When I lived in North Holland , a Dutch guy gave me similar grief, being in Freisland whose people once ran the course from England across to Denmark, I asked him when the Dutch were going to stop occupying and forcing their culture on the Fries. Not only was he dumbfounded but I got a lot drinks from the local farm boysOne thing for sure is that Americans are more brutaly honest about their past then say Canadians -and what they did to the Native People, or most any other country. As I said before from ancient Rome to China and all points in between this has been going on.I also find it funny that when one is abroad the natives feel you are there to serve as a messenger to your home gov't., as you said Matty.CheersJohnny

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"You shut your mouthhow can you sayI go about things the wrong wayI am human and I need to be lovedjust like everybody else does"The Smiths

Fact is, history is written by the winners and whined about by the losers.

Any "thing" living or not, will try to secure a future for whatever length of time that may be. Mistakes might be made or perceived, but the results are tested only by time and judged by those in that moment.

Right or wrong, winner or looser is simply a mater of perspective.

But Republicans and Democrate are all the same? Really! Have you learned nothing? Maybe someone as been asleep for to long!

BB

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Damn the Torpedoes! Full speed ahead! Adm. D. Farragut.

Started Atripla 8/18/06 and if I eat the right food when I take my meds, I get to go on a-trip-la.

This one, however, 'says it all', about what the basic philosophy of ourCountry is all about, and how we are received around the world.

At a French airport... A group of American retired teachers recently went toFrance on a tour. Robert Whiting, an elderly gentleman of 83, was part ofthe tour group.

At French Customs, he took a few minutes to locate his passport in his carry-on.

"You have been to France before, monsieur?" the customs officer askedsarcastically. Mr. Whiting admitted that he had been to France previously.

"Then you should know enough to have your passport ready."The American said, "The last time I was here, I didn't have to show it."

"Impossible!" barked the officer. "Americans always have to show your passports on arrival in France."

The American! senior gave the Frenchman a long hard look. Then he quietly explained. "Well, when I came ashore at Omaha Beach on D-Day in '44 to help liberate this country, I couldn't find any Frenchmen to show it to."

I care, and obviously so do the others participating in the "discussion". May I ask how a "thing" that is not living secures its future? The only loser will be the total annihilation of the planet...and then you will be right. There will be no one left to care and all the whining will stop.

Fact is, history is written by the winners and whined about by the losers.

Any "thing" living or not, will try to secure a future for whatever length of time that may be. Mistakes might be made or perceived, but the results are tested only by time and judged by those in that moment.

Right or wrong, winner or looser is simply a mater of perspective.

But Republicans and Democrate are all the same? Really! Have you learned nothing? Maybe someone as been asleep for to long! Grin

BB

Yup. Thanks for that sparkling contribution BB. We'll all be sure to watch out for those sneaky Democrates.

matty, have been out of town for several days and at the moment am too sick from this fucking Gilead poison(truvada) to think clearly,not that it would matter. Have to go vomit.When you go to war, go to win with the fewest casualties possible. We won the war in two weeks, but our missions changed from "get saddam" to spreading democracy starting in country that really isnt a country, but three maybe four countries.

Matty, Have you read "the ghost of king leopold"? A very exellent book that reads like a novel. WOW! Leopold was one hell of an operator and the atrociities committed against africans were just revolting. An amazing book.Another fine book,"the secret war of charlie wilson" details how US democrats financed a secret war to support the afgans against the russians while Reagan was president. The ironies are everywhere. By supporting the afgans we created Bin Laden and Al Quaeda and since we helped them beat their main enemy,USSR, there was no one left for them to hate, but us. it is also ironical that the same democrats who financed this secret war to fight the commies, didnt support reagans secret war to fight the commies in central america. Great Book.non fictions is so much better than any fiction. gotta go puke.

Jakey! I was getting worried babe. Terry's been filling in for you, but since he's a pinko liberal at heart he really doesn't do the Ranting Right Winger thing very well.

matty, have been out of town for several days and at the moment am too sick from this fucking Gilead poison(truvada) to think clearly,not that it would matter. Have to go vomit.When you go to war, go to win with the fewest casualties possible. We won the war in two weeks, but our missions changed from "get saddam" to spreading democracy starting in country that really isnt a country, but three maybe four countries.

You won the war? Hells bells Jakey, if that's victory I don't want to see defeat. In two weeks the American led coalition managed to secure control of most of Baghdad. The rest of the place is still a reeking military quagmire where the insurgents have the upper hand. As for the original mission, I thought it was about WMD's. You know those things Colin and Condi assured the rest of the world were there?

But you're right about the US shifting the goal posts on this issue. Once the original reason for going in proved to be a bit of a fib, it became about democracy. Well, what America and Australia like to think is democracy. Seems to this little white pervert that Iraq is destined to become another authoritarian Shiite state, not unlike Iran.

Matty, Have you read "the ghost of king leopold"? A very exellent book that reads like a novel. WOW! Leopold was one hell of an operator and the atrociities committed against africans were just revolting. An amazing book.Another fine book,"the secret war of charlie wilson" details how US democrats financed a secret war to support the afgans against the russians while Reagan was president. The ironies are everywhere. By supporting the afgans we created Bin Laden and Al Quaeda and since we helped them beat their main enemy,USSR, there was no one left for them to hate, but us. it is also ironical that the same democrats who financed this secret war to fight the commies, didnt support reagans secret war to fight the commies in central america. Great Book.non fictions is so much better than any fiction. gotta go puke.

I must say I've not read The Ghost of King Leopold, but I've heard excellent reviews. I'll make a note of it. Perhaps cleaning up Afghanistan should have been Dubya's primary objective. There was some legitimacy to America's military action against the Taliban. Nevertheless the historical charnel house that is Afghanistan has proven to be a death trap for many great regimes. Not just for the US and USSR, but extending back into antiquity.

In the book "charlie wilsons war", cia agents tell the story of when they were with afgan rebels(who became taliban and al quaeda) with several captured russian soldiers. Each night all the afgans would rape the russians. Russians would often prefer to take their own life than risk capture by the afgans.Another irony is if we had never helped the afgans beat the russians, there might be no Al Quaeda or Taliban.