[quote="game-lover" post="6.394138.15965457]Having all these dudes be so offended by phony nerd girls is definite news to me.[/quote]

Yes, it's a thing. I'm surprised you haven't come across it. [url=http://dcwomenkickingass.tumblr.com/post/35644420254/tonyharris]The current hubbub over it was sparked by comments from a couple comics creators[/url], but dudes attacking self-identified nerd girls for not being 'real' nerds is in fact a thing and has been growing more prevalent for a while. As have complaints about it. As have reactions to those complaints.

As usual, it's usually the reactions to the complaints where you get the most blatant examples of sexism in the community. Some bigwig or creator or blogger or just dude with a bit of publicity will say or do something wish sexist implications, and then a few critics will call them out on it, and then the critics will be buried in an avalanche of angry internet trolls rushing to defend the original dude by attacking the critics as "sluts" or "whores" or "prudes" or "manginas" or whatever else, while the person who made the original feux pas will either double down on their terribleness or issue a condescending non-apology.

Sounds to me like the latter girl was just really crap at her job and presumably couldn't get a job anywhere else, and not really a "Fake Nerd Girl." Esp. since it sounds like she wasn't particularly good at faking it if she was.

Honestly I think she was but it was kind of clear why she went for the job there and most likely faked some interest in working there. She wasn't exactly a master at it as clearly she was more after one certain guy then attempting to exploit who ever she could get. The basis is clear though as to how a fake nerd girl could be a detriment. imagine if she were better at faking it and had the "guys are tools" attitude. It would be worrying to me at least.

It would seem to me that such girls would be fairly obvious thus the 3rd degree would be unnecessary.

Unlike you Jim, and all your young followers, some of us wear our "GAMER" title proudly, because it is something we suffered and sacrificed for.

You touched on this with your mention of growing up at a time when gaming wasn't cool, when it could get you abused and bullied at school, made fun of amongst friends, or looked down upon at home. Us older gamers are the ones that had to forego social opportunity and have our self esteem crushed, in the names of beating real, challenging titles. Then we had the lovely experience of having our accomplishments shared by no one, unable to discuss the art we were experiencing, because it was juvenile.

But no, that's alright. It's ok now. Now that the corporate world has said so, its perfectly alright for some tweeny slim dyed blonde bimbo to waltz online and call herself a gamer because she had her hand held by indicators and auto targeting (nevermind regenerating health) in the latest Call of Duty. She's a gamer too, right? It's completely the same exact thing.

No, sorry young fan base, but you're not gamers, because being a gamer isn't any more desirable for many of us than being a real life war veteran is for others. Yes, I'm serious when I make that comparison. We didn't all sign up for this battle, but we were all in it, and those were there and know what I'm talking about wear their titles proudly, like a badge, not because it makes us look cool but because WE REMEMBER WHAT IT MEANS TO BE CALLED A GAMER.

So often I'm amazed at the debate of whether pretty young girls can be hardcore gamers. Why would they WANT to be?? You don't have to sit at home and grind your way through hardcore mode, you're young, pretty, good looking, you're invited to the club! You're invited to the party! So why the FUCK do you feel the need to stand before me and declare yourself on equal footing? Why are you claiming a skill that you ultimately don't need and don't really have?

And if you don't think girls lie about being hardcore gamers to get money, Jim, do yourself a favor. Go surf some cam porn. See how many girls there call themselves gamers in order to pluck that extra bit of money from their unsuspecting Johns.

And don't wait up for me on the dance floor. I've got some Dark Souls to play.

Imagine, somebody goes to your favorite major sporting event's favorite team's championship game, dresses up in whatever crazy fan outfit/bodypaint and makes a noisy spectacle of themselves. You happen to sit next to this person, strike up a conversation and realize X person knows nothing at all about the sport or the team and does not even have any sincere emotional attachment to either. They're just an attention whore hoping people will take pictures of them and praise their 'hardcore fandom'. Is the contemptuous disgust you probably feel any different if X person has tits?

It's like a fake, "viral" advertising campaign trying to pass itself off as natural meme/song/whatever and no one's even getting paid to do it. A sellout, for free and no one even offered to buy.

While I usually agree with Jim, and have never complained about the fake nerd girl thing anywhere, I think the video glossed over some important ways in which fake gamer girls are damaging:

1) They damage REAL gamer girls in three ways. Firstly, and most obviously, they add competition in a market for attention unfairly. Given that only a small amount of time can be spent getting to know a person, there is no way for a legitimate gamer girl to 'prove' herself in any useful way.

2) They raise expectations. If it it appears at first glance that gamer girls are common, happy to dress in a slutty pikachu outfit, and usually conforming to ridiculous societal norms of attractiveness, this just encourages unrealistic expectations.

3) If a significant number of women at such events are 'fake' gamer girls, and by nature of being out for attention are more sociable, then they will naturally interact with more people. When this leads to the fairly obvious realisation that they have only superficial knowledge of gaming, then this only reinforces the stereotype that girls aren't gamers.

Also, there was a bit of a (surprising) stereotyping going on underneath Jim's analysis. The assumption seems to be that the majority of male gamers are hideous social outcasts with no hope of interacting with or, Heaven forbid, actually attracting a woman. Should a man actually want to meet up with a gamer girl on the grounds that they are actually interested in meeting someone with similar interests, and not just someone willing to dress like pikachu, then fake gamer girls make this all the more difficult.

So, overall, fake gamer girls can be pretty damaging both to real gamer girls and to anyone who'd like to get to know gamer girls (even for completely platonic reasons) but doesn't have time (or confidence) to speak to everyone they meet and work out if they actually share any interests. This isn't exclusively limited to gaming, it applies to any sub-culture that becomes 'cool'.

1. If you truly identify with a specific group or section of society that does not require admission, a formal process, or certain DNA. Congratz you are in!! There is no damn test to be a NERD or a GAMER.

2. I get the impression that this argument is more slated toward the advertisement world because well they are all under the impression everyone who is not them are just sheep and idiots.

3. If there are men out there who are pissed at women who do this in a social setting to them personally..... You are morons, a girl doing this wants your attention you asexual idiots. Ask her out and even if it is fake interest it can become genuine interest if gaming becomes a "thing" the two of you do.

My wife was only interested in games because I was when we were dating, so she was "fake" in that her last gaming was on the NES before me. Now she is a completionist and has played more of New Vegas than me and is looking forward to Hitman: Absolution more that I am (Farcry 3 for me)

A friend of mine who is a gamer girl told me people think she must be a guy because she plays hardcore shooters online and GoW etc, stuff that most girls are put off by. Then she tells me that I must be gay because I care about what clothes I wear and what my hygiene situation is. Double standards? I think so. But I think I'd prefer to find out that a hot girl in a cosplay outfit actually only just plays on her iPad instead of being a full on gamer like me. Or even just has a passing interest, because I love talking about games but dread that half smile, look down, sigh and then, "Can we talk about something else now?"

slash2x:1. If you truly identify with a specific group or section of society that does not require admission, a formal process, or certain DNA. Congratz you are in!! There is no damn test to be a NERD or a GAMER.

2. I get the impression that this argument is more slated toward the advertisement world because well they are all under the impression everyone who is not them are just sheep and idiots.

3. If there are men out there who are pissed at women who do this in a social setting to them personally..... You are morons, a girl doing this wants your attention you asexual idiots. Ask her out and even if it is fake interest it can become genuine interest if gaming becomes a "thing" the two of you do.

My wife was only interested in games because I was when we were dating, so she was "fake" in that her last gaming was on the NES before me. Now she is a completionist and has played more of New Vegas than me and is looking forward to Hitman: Absolution more that I am (Farcry 3 for me)

I agree. I've been with my gf for over 2 years now and I've got her playing gw2 and an old JRPG I loved, skies of arcadia. She won't play for such a long time but its a start, if she picks up a game like New Vegas like your missus did then thats insta-marriage material for me right there.

It's amazing to me (well, kind of) that Jim couldn't do any research on this issue and why it ticks people off. Honestly, the way he presents opinions, he's the Fox News of game blogging, because he sure as hell doesn't do enough research or present things in any way close to a journalist.

I'd love to see him come in here and defend his position like any man would when challenged, but I don't expect it. It's easy to spout off opinions when you don't have to take criticism about them.

You touched on this with your mention of growing up at a time when gaming wasn't cool, when it could get you abused and bullied at school, made fun of amongst friends, or looked down upon at home. Us older gamers are the ones that had to forego social opportunity and have our self esteem crushed, in the names of beating real, challenging titles. Then we had the lovely experience of having our accomplishments shared by no one, unable to discuss the art we were experiencing, because it was juvenile.

Careful when you claim to speak for us old timers there.....be very careful....

But no, that's alright. It's ok now. Now that the corporate world has said so, its perfectly alright for some tweeny slim dyed blonde bimbo to waltz online and call herself a gamer because she had her hand held by indicators and auto targeting (nevermind regenerating health) in the latest Call of Duty. She's a gamer too, right? It's completely the same exact thing.

Yes. It is.

Is she a LONGTIME gamer? No. Is she a DEDICATED gamer? No. Is she a WELL VERSED gamer? Hell no. Is she a gamer with taste? I doubt it.

But she is a gamer.

No, sorry young fan base, but you're not gamers

Says. WHO?

You're not the spokesperson for the hobby. You're not the grand inquisitor of a non-existent board of approval.

because being a gamer isn't any more desirable for many of us than being a real life war veteran is for others. Yes, I'm serious when I make that comparison.

You....you didn't just do that, I know you didn't.

So often I'm amazed at the debate of whether pretty young girls can be hardcore gamers. Why would they WANT to be??

Because they might find gaming, you know, fun?

You don't have to sit at home and grind your way through hardcore mode, you're young, pretty, good looking, you're invited to the club! You're invited to the party! So why the FUCK do you feel the need to stand before me and declare yourself on equal footing? Why are you claiming a skill that you ultimately don't need and don't really have?

You're exactly the type of shitheel I encountered for a brief time when I started doing Doom and Quake multiplayer. I shut them up REAL fast when they learned, "hey, that little redhead just rocket launcher'd from the map 10 times before I could get a word out."

And if you don't think girls lie about being hardcore gamers to get money, Jim, do yourself a favor. Go surf some cam porn. See how many girls there call themselves gamers in order to pluck that extra bit of money from their unsuspecting Johns.

Nobody is denying that there are girls who do this. I'm certainly not. I find it annoying too. Doesn't mean that, if they also happen to pull a few rounds on a game, they're not gamers either. I already listed adjectives that don't apply to them that would apply to people like you and me, but apparently that's not good enough for this etheric and non-confirmable title of "gamer".

This is the same garbage I saw with the punk movement, and one of the big reasons I dropped out of that scene too.

We've seen this phenomenon with a lot of other subcultures, especially ones that have gone from being "underground" to mainstream. Think of all the debates in certain music subcultures about "authenticity". Punk, rap and blues being great examples. Alternatively, the old hipster mantra of "I saw them before they were famous".Right now there are people pissed off that Mumford & Sons have gone Platinum and hundreds of people claim they are folk fans but don't have any Woody Guthrie albums. Same thing.

Some people strongly identify with a certain image or interest, it becomes their "thing", even their personality. They invest time and money into becoming knowledgeable about the subject, they build their social circle around it.Suddenly it becomes popular and it no longer makes them special or unique like it did before.

slash2x:1. If you truly identify with a specific group or section of society that does not require admission, a formal process, or certain DNA. Congratz you are in!! There is no damn test to be a NERD or a GAMER.

I disagree with that one. Just because a group has no clear-cut border, it can still have a definition that obviously excludes at least some people who are very distant from it.

If I, as a full-blood Hungarian who has never left mainland Europe, would claim to be a Scotsman, you would be entirely justified to call me out on being No True Scotsman.

The fallacy only applies to situations where you are making up criteria on the spot, such as old man MacDonald living in Scotland, born in Scotland, and speaking Scots, is No True Scotsman if he doesn't support the Scottish independence movement.

Or like saying that I'm No True Gamer if I avoid strategy games.

But it's still possible to pretend to be a gamer in a way in which you are actually not.

3. If there are men out there who are pissed at women who do this in a social setting to them personally..... You are morons, a girl doing this wants your attention you asexual idiots. Ask her out and even if it is fake interest it can become genuine interest if gaming becomes a "thing" the two of you do.

I think it's more about girls (and people in general) acting like that on their youtube channels, or in their social circles, not specifically about a flirting situation.

I have more 'geek cred' in my little finger than a lot of guys I meet have in their whole body and yet I'm the one greeted with suspicion and told tits or gtfo.

Feel ya. I've had people say the same thing lately. Never mind the shrine of RE toys I have pinned to my wall, or my collection of Atari game box art...

I'm tired of people telling me I can't possibly like something because I have ovaries, and yeah it would be nice to see my sex treated with a tad more respect within the gaming industry. So sorry if I'm going to point out when a character is unessercarily half naked and sexualised

Hell, I'm one of those that doesn't even mind THAT, as opposed to (as pointed out by...eh, not sure who, but it might have been Jim) HOW the girls wear it. Subtle point.

Okulossos:Honestly if people could be brought fully into gaming they could be a great benefit to the industry, all that potential

DEAR GOD, that would be an absolute disaster... well, it is an absolute disaster. People who enjoy to buy the same crappy game year after year are not what i would consider to be a "potential" - it is more some strange sort of complete opposite.[/quote]If some company could get them to try more things they could be and if somehow they could essentially get them to not move in one huge lump it could mean companies could make games for most genres, not just Modern Military shooters.

Yes, I am keeping people out, and that is for the better. Going by what you wrote, you say, that everyone should, for example be able to program an anti-virus software. Well, I am glad that that is not the case!

Gaming is a hobby, its not a specialist thing, it doesn't require huge amounts of training or anything like that to get into.

Not everything is meant for everyone and that is good! I get that sickening feeling when someone comes all pseudo open-minded and starts to tell me how humanity should work together and how wonderful all the people are in the world and... and so on. This not what reality is like!In reality think don't work like that. All those nature-bound people in Africa are not happy with their life, they would also prefer to have a fridge, a vacuum cleaner and a comfy bed over starving of hunger. In reality a lot of people should not be gaming, a lot of people should not even have a computer let alone Internet access. Because in reality, people don't understand that they are still being monitored even if other people can not see their faces. They don't understand that consequences they don't see might still apply.In reality we have facebook postings where people describe how funny they looked on that picture they posted where they throw up in the night club.In reality we have websites such as this one: http://fatuglyorslutty.com/

However you also have repositories of knowledge like wikipedia, many Journals and research being put online etc. Unfortunately part of the freedom of the internet, is the freedom to be a complete twat on it, the idea is the communities should be able to look after themselves to some extent

So no, gaming is not an exclusive club, but is that bad? If you were there at the beginning of it all and played games such as quake when they first came out, you would understand, that online gaming can be something that is different from what we know today. So Yes, it is very bad!

I wasn't there at quite the beginning though I have been online gaming for over 10 years now since Tribes 2(and gaming quite a bit before that) I was there pretty early on and honestly most of that is gone even from so called core games, from the Rage of LOL to the Elitism (which even existed back then) its never really been a bastion of well mannered people being good sports. The issue now is that a core of people are going out their way to be bad sports. Along with the cash of the MLG. Money or potential money does strange things to people as does making anything overly competitive (Hence I'm no longer in competitive gaming despite having been there early on, before the birth of MLG)

It would seem to me that such girls would be fairly obvious thus the 3rd degree would be unnecessary.

You'd think but then it's done to all kinds of people and walks of life its not specific to gaming some people are just damn good at faking interest in people. Also remember the moment you question their authenticity these days you have the wave of white knights hitting you for daring to ask or question it, so even if they are fake many people just don't want the hassle of having to fight off all the white knights so will just back down in an attempt to avoid being labelled by the white knights as a Sexist pig who deserves to receive death threats etc.

the Dept of Science:We've seen this phenomenon with a lot of other subcultures, especially ones that have gone from being "underground" to mainstream. Think of all the debates in certain music subcultures about "authenticity". Punk, rap and blues being great examples. Alternatively, the old hipster mantra of "I saw them before they were famous".Right now there are people pissed off that Mumford & Sons have gone Platinum and hundreds of people claim they are folk fans but don't have any Woody Guthrie albums. Same thing.

Some people strongly identify with a certain image or interest, it becomes their "thing", even their personality. They invest time and money into becoming knowledgeable about the subject, they build their social circle around it.Suddenly it becomes popular and it no longer makes them special or unique like it did before.

It's not just about "no longer being special", but also an anger at the original ideals of the subculture being ignored while washing out it's surface elements until they are fit for mainstream consumption.

For example, in case of Punk, the subculture's whole point used to be non-conformism and anti-consumerism, to "stick it to the man". And then, this happened:

In case of nerds, the original point was supposed to be that it was a reclaimed insult for social outcasts, to refer to their excessive knowledge about weird unpopular genres.

Now Valley Girls watching The Avengers and dudebros playing CoD, are about as nerdy as that kid above is punk.

Yeah, they technically follow the broadest possible stereotypes about what nerds do (playing video games, consuming genre fiction), but they also lack the attitudes behind it.

The true 21th century equivalents of the nerd subculture would probably be something like bronies, furries, otaku, and similar fringes who are NOW considered freakish and obsessive by the CURRENT mainstream. (that is, by the people who now call themselves "nerds").

You touched on this with your mention of growing up at a time when gaming wasn't cool, when it could get you abused and bullied at school, made fun of amongst friends, or looked down upon at home. Us older gamers are the ones that had to forego social opportunity and have our self esteem crushed, in the names of beating real, challenging titles. Then we had the lovely experience of having our accomplishments shared by no one, unable to discuss the art we were experiencing, because it was juvenile.

Careful when you claim to speak for us old timers there.....be very careful....

But no, that's alright. It's ok now. Now that the corporate world has said so, its perfectly alright for some tweeny slim dyed blonde bimbo to waltz online and call herself a gamer because she had her hand held by indicators and auto targeting (nevermind regenerating health) in the latest Call of Duty. She's a gamer too, right? It's completely the same exact thing.

Yes. It is.

Is she a LONGTIME gamer? No. Is she a DEDICATED gamer? No. Is she a WELL VERSED gamer? Hell no. Is she a gamer with taste? I doubt it.

But she is a gamer.

No, sorry young fan base, but you're not gamers

Says. WHO?

You're not the spokesperson for the hobby. You're not the grand inquisitor of a non-existent board of approval.

because being a gamer isn't any more desirable for many of us than being a real life war veteran is for others. Yes, I'm serious when I make that comparison.

You....you didn't just do that, I know you didn't.

So often I'm amazed at the debate of whether pretty young girls can be hardcore gamers. Why would they WANT to be??

Because they might find gaming, you know, fun?

You don't have to sit at home and grind your way through hardcore mode, you're young, pretty, good looking, you're invited to the club! You're invited to the party! So why the FUCK do you feel the need to stand before me and declare yourself on equal footing? Why are you claiming a skill that you ultimately don't need and don't really have?

You're exactly the type of shitheel I encountered for a brief time when I started doing Doom and Quake multiplayer. I shut them up REAL fast when they learned, "hey, that little redhead just rocket launcher'd from the map 10 times before I could get a word out."

And if you don't think girls lie about being hardcore gamers to get money, Jim, do yourself a favor. Go surf some cam porn. See how many girls there call themselves gamers in order to pluck that extra bit of money from their unsuspecting Johns.

Nobody is denying that there are girls who do this. I'm certainly not. I find it annoying too. Doesn't mean that, if they also happen to pull a few rounds on a game, they're not gamers either. I already listed adjectives that don't apply to them that would apply to people like you and me, but apparently that's not good enough for this etheric and non-confirmable title of "gamer".

This is the same garbage I saw with the punk movement, and one of the big reasons I dropped out of that scene too.

I get your speech all the time too, from girls who have a bunch of others carry them through online team games, and what? Now I'm supposed to be all panicked that you might have learned a few tricks while others carry you through team games? I'll still win when it counts because I've logged in that many more hours.

There's a reason why you never see female pro gamers in the top tier, and why girl game groups like fragkitten get knocked off the big stage real quick. Everybody beats them, because they haven't put in the dedication required to BE that good. And they shouldn't.

Look, if I was able to make the opposite sex pay for my livelihood just by focusing on social straights instead of sitting in front of a TV for most of my life, I would. But I didn't get that chance (and I won't even pull the sympathy card and say why, but I promise its juicy). I got stuck playing games my whole life, and as I've gotten older I've learned to take pride in what few accomplishments I achieved in doing so. All I'm saying is I have my cloud, and girls have theirs. And theirs is much higher. So get off mine.

It would seem to me that such girls would be fairly obvious thus the 3rd degree would be unnecessary.

You'd think but then it's done to all kinds of people and walks of life its not specific to gaming some people are just damn good at faking interest in people. Also remember the moment you question their authenticity these days you have the wave of white knights hitting you for daring to ask or question it, so even if they are fake many people just don't want the hassle of having to fight off all the white knights so will just back down in an attempt to avoid being labelled by the white knights as a Sexist pig who deserves to receive death threats etc.

But where are the white knights? Because unless I misunderstood the video, the issue is people coming down on the supposed "Fake Nerd Girls" or rather real nerd girls are being accused of being fake.

When I was in high school, I considered myself a Gamer. It was a pretty big part of who I was, and it was something I took pride in calling myself.

Now that I'm older and I see stuff like this...I'm at the point now where I almost get offended if someone calls me a gamer. Because not only are video games a fairly miniscule part of my life, and I'm not fond of people just assuming that's all I'm about but...

I mean come on, after some of the immature crap gamers pull, I fail to understand why anyone would WANT to be associated with them.

"I was bullied when I was a kid for playing video games, and now it's not fair that all these new people can just jump in and enjoy games without having to go through the same stuff I did!"

Seriously, shut up. Look, I know the feeling. I was bullied as a kid for playing Pokemon. I honestly can't tell you how many times some bully yanked the cartridge out of my gameboy and threw it because he thought it would be funny.

But why hold a grudge? Instead of being angry that other people are playing video games now without all the bullying, why not just be...y'know...HAPPY that video games are becoming a bigger part of mainstream culture. Be happy that something you love and enjoy is maturing into something that everyone can enjoy.

Don't be some elitist prick who tries to act like another human being doesn't deserve to enjoy the same hobby as you just because they didn't waste their money at the arcade or ever have to fix their SNES by blowing into the cartridges...and even more important, don't just naturally assume that someone DIDN'T do those things just because they have breasts.

Gamers have become petty, snobby, and rather pathetic over the past few years. (obviously I'm speaking generally, not saying this applies to everyone)

I still play video games now and then, I still enjoy video games...but seriously, don't call me a gamer. I'd rather not be associated with some of the crap they pull.

But where are the white knights? Because unless I misunderstood the video, the issue is people coming down on the supposed "Fake Nerd Girls" or rather real nerd girls are being accused of being fake.

probably still surrounding Ms Sarkeesian as she wasn't a gamer really until it suited her.

What I'm saying is the destructoid guy who said Felicia day was useless was wrong. However it wasn't right for the Army of Wil Wheaton (Wil Wheaton defending a friend was ok even if a bit stupid as it wasn't going to stay on the personal level due to his followers etc) to jump the guy in quite such spectacular style. I mean death threats and calling for the guy to never be allowed to work in media again ? that's not helping the issue. If they did care they'd be more interested in pointing out what the person had done and not calling for the persons head

The point that Jim's making isn't that "Fake Girl Gamers" don't exist.

His point is that nobody ever calls people out on "Fake Guy Gamers." Only women come under that scrutiny. Somehow, being male means that you're automatically in on the gamer club. There's a huge number of Male Let's Play'ers who play a game not because they enjoy it, but because it gets them high ratings (Let's Play Happy Wheels, an absolute waste of time if I've ever seen one, comes to mind). Nobody ever calls these guys out on being fake gamers. They're still considered to be gamers, even if they're only playing the stupidest games for the stupidest of reasons.

However, if you're a girl who admits to liking Starcraft? Hoo boy, you better be ready to pony up some solid facts that you are in fact a gamer, and not just a wannabe.

Also, enough with the "A lot of the girls who work at conventions aren't actually gamers, and its wrong." Well no kidding sherlock. A job is a job. It's money. Show me one person who is absolutely in love with their job at McDonalds or Walmart. Severe passion is not a requirement for a job, even at conventions. You think the booth babes should be passionate about video games? Take it up with their bosses. Companies think a pretty smile will bring more gamers to their booth than someone who is passionate about the game. And as long as you continue to support that belief, that's what they'll continue to do. Don't razz on people just for trying to make a living or pursue a career in who-really-cares-what.

Aardvaarkman:How about we treat everybody nice and fairly, regardless of gender? I don't recall anybody arguing that this basic standard of etiquette should only be applied to females. It's just the normal consideration of others, expected of people living in a society.

racism isnt to be tolerated and same goes for sexism. The target is no matter, but how often do you find racism against whites? Or sexism against men?

Sexism against men? Like, you know, guys claiming gaming culture is a male thing and that a part of it is being a jerk and calling people juvenile names? Assuming men are all rude manchildren? That if they care about things like feminism it must be because they just want to get laid? That all they want from a game are boobs and explosions?Booth babes are freaking sexist towards men!

Sexism goes both ways, and the things and attitudes that are harmful to women also limit men and how comfortable they feel doing things.

But where are the white knights? Because unless I misunderstood the video, the issue is people coming down on the supposed "Fake Nerd Girls" or rather real nerd girls are being accused of being fake.

probably still surrounding Ms Sarkeesian as she wasn't a gamer really until it suited her.

What I'm saying is the destructoid guy who said Felicia day was useless was wrong. However it wasn't right for the Army of Wil Wheaton (Wil Wheaton defending a friend was ok even if a bit stupid as it wasn't going to stay on the personal level due to his followers etc) to jump the guy in quite such spectacular style. I mean death threats and calling for the guy to never be allowed to work in media again ? that's not helping the issue. If they did care they'd be more interested in pointing out what the person had done and not calling for the persons head

When was the last time you heard anything about Ms. Sarkeesian? 'Cause I haven't heard anything from her in ages. Probably because I get most of my new from this site, but whatever.

Why haven't I heard about either of those things? I knew Wil Wheaton had made a few statements but I didn't know he had received death threats or anything. ...not that that surprises me any. It seems few people on the Internet know how to properly address issues they feel strongly about and resort to lashing out like a pack of rabid chimpanzees. ...except that would be an insult to rabid chimpanzees.

Strain42: Instead of being angry that other people are playing video games now without all the bullying, why not just be...y'know...HAPPY that video games are becoming a bigger part of mainstream culture. Be happy that something you love and enjoy is maturing into something that everyone can enjoy.

...

Gamers have become petty, snobby, and rather pathetic over the past few years. (obviously I'm speaking generally, not saying this applies to everyone)

I still play video games now and then, I still enjoy video games...but seriously, don't call me a gamer. I'd rather not be associated with some of the crap they pull.

This seems to be contradictory. First, you say that anyone playing video games should be considered part of the gamer hobby.

Then you distance yourself from the term "gamer", applying it specifically to the hardcore forum debater elitists who hate casuals.

If you truly believe that al th hundreds of millions of people who ever enjoyed a video game should be called gamers, then it should be obvious that only a very small fringe of these gamers are elitists.

But you identify them "generally" as "petty, snobby, and rather pathetic", thus you are just setting up an exclusive definition. Even if you place yourself outside of it.

Ironically, that's pretty similar to the point that the elitists themselves are making, even if they are using different terminology:

We are the true nerds, the kind of people who debate all night on a forum about the definition of nerdiness, the ones who are so obsessed with their hobbies that we would rather make an ass out of ourself defending our connection to it, than to appear as a well-adjusted person.

They, the attractive ones, the popular ones, are just casually looking into games because they are popular enough right now. We are so irrational that we would keep gaming if we would be the last person doing so, while they are just acting normal.

We are arrogant extremists. They are moderate and mainstream.

And then, they, the popular people, the mature people, the nice people, socially well-adjusted people, decided to also take our subculture's coating, because it happens to be hip at the moment. Thy say "Oh, I play CoD, I'm such a nerd!" ignoring all the effort, obsessiveness, hatefulness, misanthropy, and creepiness that we poured into creating the nerd subculture. They think that they can just steal the label for their own purposes!

So, what does make someone an authentic nerd, and what makes that label so important?

It's not about what makes a nerd so much as what makes one not a nerd. The first is hard to define, the second is very, very easy.

So, what are these obvious things that disqualify one from nerd-hood?

It seems a lot of people in this thread are using overly narrow definitions. Nerds come in all shapes, sizes and types. Someone might be a nerd about physics, who has never read a comic book or played a video game. Some people are nerds about steam trains. Do you think that guy writing his PhD on 18th Century Russian Literature isn't a nerd?

Also, I reject the notion suggested by others that a nerd has to be a social outcast. There are plenty of nerds who have good social skills and are attractive. There are even nerds who are also athletes. Nerdiness is not something that should be judged by appearance. I work with a lot of Professors, and they are some of the nerdiest people you'll ever meet - but they can get as many women as they like, because they are witty conversationalists who can talk all night about any number of fascinating topics you may never have heard of.

I think the most important factor to being a nerd is a curious, inquisitive mind, followed by deep interests and knowledge thereof. But mainly the intellectual curiosity.

I guess what I'm saying is don't judge people based on first impressions, or whether their knowledge matches your particular nerd interests. That "fake nerd girl" that's dismissed because she's just a good-looking casual gamer might also be a brilliant computer programmer, or an archaeologist, or whatever. Most adults who are secure in their nerdy ways usually don't feel the need to constantly prove themselves, or go around waving their resume to prove how smart they are.

You don't get it.

The bar is set low and these people the internet scorn can't even meet it.

We're talking about the ads that are obviously half baked because it features four women apparently having the time of their lives playing a console that isn't even plugged in. Or the woman proclaiming that she is such a nerd for having logged two hours of actual game time in the last month.

While there's no bar set on what quantifies a nerd, its rather obvious when someone claims to be mildly obsessed with something, when they're really just not. Its disingenuous, and miss-represents the person. And yes, the term does mean to an extent, that you are a social out cast. That's the cut between simply being smart or bright, and being a nerd. Generally the term "nerd" is associated with people who are so entirely devoted to their hobby, interest, what have you, that they'll neglect eating, social lives, and even person hygiene.

So no, your Phd candidate probably isn't one- if they're reasonably normal they'll look back on this time as that maddening race for that piece of paper. The folks that can jump between esoteric context relevant discourse and normal social interaction like its a flip of a switch aren't really nerds. But don't worry, that's a thinly veiled compliment.

OuroborosChoked: It's one thing if I can go up to one of these supposed "fake nerd" girls, and we can actually hold a discussion about the Atari 2600's impact on modern gaming citing specific examples (or something similar)... if you can do that, you're a nerd in my book.

How often do you even see that conversation happen? I was playin' Star Raiders on the Atari 400, son. I go to some pretty in-depth gaming sites and blogs. You know how often I've seen a conversation about the "Atari 2600's impact on modern gaming?" Certainly not here in the Escapist forums. And rarely outside of an article on Gamasutra. The very statement is pretentious*.

But then, in some peoples' book I'd be a fake gamer, too.

*As an aside I could go off on how the Star Raiders design did not go on to influence modern gaming, when it should have. Despite its DNA being found in Elite, Wing Commander, and the like, but completely gone by the time we get Mass Effect.

Prosis:The point that Jim's making isn't that "Fake Girl Gamers" don't exist.

His point is that nobody ever calls people out on "Fake Guy Gamers." Only women come under that scrutiny. Somehow, being male means that you're automatically in on the gamer club. There's a huge number of Male Let's Play'ers who play a game not because they enjoy it, but because it gets them high ratings (Let's Play Happy Wheels, an absolute waste of time if I've ever seen one, comes to mind). Nobody ever calls these guys out on being fake gamers. They're still considered to be gamers, even if they're only playing the stupidest games for the stupidest of reasons.

I think you might want to watch the TGS podcast where TB pretty much takes shots at youtubers like that such as Pewdepie (or whatever his name is) every so often. The idea being people want to watch that and its trash viewing like reality TV so people are simply going where the money is, again rightly or wrongly be the question is, is it wrong for any of these to exist in the first place ?

However, if you're a girl who admits to liking Starcraft? Hoo boy, you better be ready to pony up some solid facts that you are in fact a gamer, and not just a wannabe.

Also, enough with the "A lot of the girls who work at conventions aren't actually gamers, and its wrong." Well no kidding sherlock. A job is a job. It's money. Show me one person who is absolutely in love with their job at McDonalds or Walmart. Severe passion is not a requirement for a job, even at conventions. You think the booth babes should be passionate about video games? Take it up with their bosses. Companies think a pretty smile will bring more gamers to their booth than someone who is passionate about the game. And as long as you continue to support that belief, that's what they'll continue to do. Don't razz on people just for trying to make a living or pursue a career in who-really-cares-what.

The difference is when someone wants to open the can of worms and the fake nerd girl idea is the idea of guys being exploited as like it or not Teen guys aren't some super species and to expect all of them to be completely immune to boobs as marketing is wrong. Its Almost a form of sexism in itself to expect guys to be conform to being something and that if they aren't its fine to exploit them.

Is it fine for a guy to be a love rat after just sex ? No because some girls will fall for it.

Is it right for some girls to pretend to be nerds just to get money ?No, the problem is there's an audience for it and the present attitude seems to be "Meh guys deserve it"

So lets take a look at it in the media.John tucker Must die, many people have probabaly heard of this film about a love rat guy getting caught out.Gentlemen Broncos, a film far less people will have heard of about a guy who gets exploited by a girl who pretends to be interested in him and his story, in reality using it to try and get the right for her friend to make a film of it.

The main difference between the booth babe and the fake nerd girl is the booth babe doesn't so actively choose to exploit people as essentially someone else is paying her and someone else is reaping the rewards while with the fake nerd girl, they are making the decision and they are trying to reap the rewards

The main difference between the booth babe and the fake nerd girl is the booth babe doesn't so actively choose to exploit people as essentially someone else is paying her and someone else is reaping the rewards while with the fake nerd girl, they are making the decision and they are trying to reap the rewards

Yeah but...WHAT REWARDS?Attention? So what?

Look, I would understand a dude being upset if maybe he'd gone out with someone who was `pretending` to be a nerd and then later when they were dating found out she wasn't and only pretended to be to get with him BUT just random people wearing shirts of shit they may not actually be into but might find cool DOESN'T HURT ANYONE!(This is why I STILL don't have a Batman shirt- because I haven't read enough of the comics or watched enough of the movies or carved `Bruce Wayne` into my fucking leg).

Mostly the times I see guys being upset is because they think they have found a magical gamer girl unicorn to date and then she turns out to be a bit of a noob. Or just has a boyfriend.

I'm sure this happens to you all the time so it's a really big deal, but having never seen someone I can't see this being widespread.

Of course manipulation of anyone is a problem, but are those who pretend to like games any different than any other kind of manipulation? Why is it specific focus on those who pretend to like games rather than those who manipulate in any other way?

Now if you say they are no different, explain why you draw a line separating those. Why is it fake nerd girls rather than manipulative behaviour in full that gets you riled up?

Well, manipulative behavior riles most people when you get down to it. The whole "fake nerd girl" thing is simply a kind of manipulative behavior, which is why it gets such strong, negative responses. My problem is that it needs to be understood as a manipulative behavior in order to understand the reaction.

As far as I go, my direct experience has been seeing some pretty solid guilds ripped apart by this kind of thing, and otherwise viewing the damage in various internet communities. For the most part I don't deal with it myself since my internet persona is pretty bloody unapproachable and not especially well liked (even if not hated). You might of course also realize at this point there are reasons why I carry myself the way I do.

In the first post I wrote I went into more detail, but let's just say there was an issue with this kind of thing before it wound up on the radar of sites like The Escapist and commentators like Jim. The whole chan-inspired "Tits or GTFO" is pretty much in response to the "faux nerd girl", rather than just being a matter of general sexism. It basically coming down to the stereotype of some cute girl coming into fringe culture, flirting, and then showing her boobs for gifts (even if worked into subtly). The basic schtick basically being "you might as well just show me your tits now, and get the pretensions over with", or a sort of "I'm onto you". This is why when you see a cute-seeming girl being unusually friendly or acting geeky someone will toss one of the many versions of that copypasta her way.

I read your post before falling asleep so I might not remember it completely here, but it seemed like you indicated that any attractive person can't be a nerd. Now I'd say that is quite insulting and a really broad generalization. It seems like you think that being a nerd ism socially unaccepted and that by being attractive you're automatically accepted. Social skills has nothing to do with it. I might be wrong simply because of the state I am in now and the state I was when I read it though.

However I'm not sure if you are actually talking about girls who go around wearing geeky t-shirts without liking games or girls who play online games where they intentionally use the fact that they have a matching pair of chromosomes to manipulate guys. I am talking about the girls appearing as geeks and I am pretty sure that was what this video was about too. Now of course the kind of manipulation you talk about is bad, but that is something else entirely. Those aren't girls pretending to like games in order to get attention, those are girls pretending to like you in order to get something for free. Honestly I think you are the one who missed the point here.

Nope, I got the point here entirely. The "Hot Nerd Girl" pretty much does not exist, or exists in such small quantities as to be irrelevent, and warrent justified suspician any time it shows up, because pretty much anyone who fits that description is there for purposes of manipulation... period.

Likewise, the thing is that someone who is physically attractive is going to have people give them a chance no matter what their social skills happen to be. Hot girls can generally get away with being totally maladjusted B@tches if they want to, and still have people orbiting around them. A real nerd doesn't have those kinds of options or oppertunities, which is part of what makes them nerds. A nerd is an outcast that by definition nobody in society wants to deal with or really give a chance. An attractive girl generally cannot truely be a social outcast to this degree to be a real nerd. The options, and potential for acceptance, generally prohibit it.

Whether you, or Jim, agree with me or not is more or less irrelevent. The bottom line is these nerd girls are not being accepted by the rest of "the nerd herd" so to speak, the fact speaks for itself. I've explained, in detail no less, why this is, you can cry to the heavens about how it's wrong and unfair all you want but that won't change anything. It's also why mis-informed appeals like those of Jim Sterling are almost surely doomed for failure. Those that have been exploited or know those who have been are of course going to ignore him. Those that haven't been and listen will generally agree with him about as long as it takes for them to eventually be screwed.

When was the last time you heard anything about Ms. Sarkeesian? 'Cause I haven't heard anything from her in ages. Probably because I get most of my new from this site, but whatever.

2 months ago as I wrote a little article about something related to her and how EA have hired her to essentially tell DICE how to make Mirrors edge 2.Mostly it was questing why she was actually consulting upon gameplay when her area is characters. Along with questioning the idea that Faith is a good female character when honestly she's not much more rounded a character than Gordon Freeman (Gordon freeman is more of a narrative device than a character in his own right, not saying its a bad thing as such though)

Why haven't I heard about either of those things? I knew Wil Wheaton had made a few statements but I didn't know he had received death threats or anything. ...not that that surprises me any. It seems few people on the Internet know how to properly address issues they feel strongly about and resort to lashing out like a pack of rabid chimpanzees. ...except that would be an insult to rabid chimpanzees.

Actually Wil wheaton didn't recieve death threats (at least to the best of my knowledge) )it was the now ex Destructoid guy who received them from some of the army of Wheatons fans.

Attention is fine, if that's it.Unfortunately people have now found ways to get attention to pay.Not long ago (probabaly a year ago or so now) there was outrage about a site called something like Game with girls or something, it was charging guys $1-$5 a minute to have one of the sites girls play in a match with them. No video, No audio other than the Xbox live service and some gullible people were paying, so many infact on its launch day the site crashed with the load.

Now lets look at youtube because hey its a good example of how attention could pay.Layne on : 23-50k viewsDodgers gaming news: 23-50k viewsTotal biscuit mailbox / content patch: 80K to 100k viewsMegan Lee Heart with clevage shots on thumbnails or deepthroating a fake gun 150 -250k views

Well I've just proved that is easier to get nerds to click boobs than it is for actual content with some effort gone into it.Yes Dodger is a girl gamer but she doesn't play up for views, you'll find no cleavage shots on her vidoes and while not super professional its well made enough just like Layne on was the obvious thing is the production value is still better than most Megan Lee Heart stuff however who gets the views and the money with them ?

Look, I would understand a dude being upset if maybe he'd gone out with someone who was `pretending` to be a nerd and then later when they were dating found out she wasn't and only pretended to be to get with him BUT just random people wearing shirts of shit they may not actually be into but might find cool DOESN'T HURT ANYONE!(This is why I STILL don't have a Batman shirt- because I haven't read enough of the comics or watched enough of the movies or carved `Bruce Wayne` into my fucking leg).

I'm not saying its right to give people the spanish inquisition due to it, however I am saying there is a legitimate concern of people faking it for money or to take advantage of people and get money.

Mostly the times I see guys being upset is because they think they have found a magical gamer girl unicorn to date and then she turns out to be a bit of a noob. Or just has a boyfriend.

honestly if people get annoyed at that level they are idiots to some extend as being a bit new to gaming isn't really being fake though as to even be a noob you have to have interest in the first place. The issue is or should be those with no real interest in the gaming but what they can get from associating from it.

As someone attempting to make a youtube centric gaming channel, fake gaming girls do annoy me. Why? Because some girl who makes a video showing some tits while talking about games will get thousands of viewers, but her commentary/review/ etc. will be absolute shit. She'll get views just because of the sex appeal. That's not to say that all women's gaming youtube channels out there do this; some do make great gaming videos, but there are a lot who don't and just ride the cleavage view train.

I get your speech all the time too, from girls who have a bunch of others carry them through online team games, and what? Now I'm supposed to be all panicked that you might have learned a few tricks while others carry you through team games? I'll still win when it counts because I've logged in that many more hours.

Have you? How long you been doing this, son? If you've got an old copy of Quake or Quake 2, you can try me. Won't take me long to shake off some rust. I won't give you enough time to be panicked before you start seeing a spam of "Flueoxetine rode LoliVanDam's rocket" and "Flueoxtine chewed on LoliVanDam's boomstick" across your message box.

All I'm saying is I have my cloud, and girls have theirs. And theirs is much higher. So get off mine.

Firstly, you imply one can only have ONE cloud, which is dumb as hell in it'self.

Second, you don't know SHIT about what clouds I've got, gained, and lost. You got this fucked up and sexist impression that we're all that gifted enough, not to mention morally bankrupt enough, to just manipulate our way into an easy life. Fuck you. I WORKED for what I have, and I WORK for what luxuries I do get to enjoy.

Third. I've put as much, if not more, than you have into the gaming cloud as well. I ain't going nowhere. Suck it up and deal.

I've been gaming since 1984. It's my main hobby, it's pretty much all I do. Exactly how are you sitting there telling me I'm not a gamer just because I happen to have ovaries.

Sometimes people want to make me flip a goddamn table seriously.

Gamed ever since the Atari 2600 was a novelty here. I stand by what I told him about firing up a copy of Quake and coming at me. Hell, I get home tonight, I'm going to go and scrape some rust off my hands just on the off chance this little frag-bait actually let's me gib his ass one on one.

I've been gaming since 1984. It's my main hobby, it's pretty much all I do. Exactly how are you sitting there telling me I'm not a gamer just because I happen to have ovaries.

Sometimes people want to make me flip a goddamn table seriously.

I stand by what I told him about firing up a copy of Quake and coming at me. Hell, I get home tonight, I'm going to go and scrape some rust off my hands just on the off chance this little frag-bait actually let's me gib his ass one on one.