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Re: GitP PrC Contest Chat Thread IV

The idea is that since they have been around a few times they really should be able to hold their own in a fight.

Fair enough. I like it, but as most official PrCs just leave that section blank, I still just find it "odd."

Originally Posted by Sgt. Cookie

To be honest with you, in my mind diplomacy was the key skill for stopping people messing with time. Bluff doesn't seem to fit. I suppose I could add "Diplomacy or bluff, whichever is higher".

Diplomacy does fit. I could see other social skills like bluff or sense motive coming into play, too, though.

Originally Posted by Sgt. Cookie

Maybe I should have it give everything back and replace the other two with something more useful?

Maybe? As it is, the class does a decent job of giving "old" characters back some of the things they lost. It could be terribly slow from a level-up and gaming perspective, but I do like it. My main issue is that, looking at it from a rogue-base, the gains per loses feel "off." It's more to do with Venerable age slapping your physicals by -6 and only returning +3 to your mental stats.

As it stands, the Fighting styles give back some of the strength (mostly) while the constitution and dexterity regaining abilities are already fairly low in so far as levels go. I very much like the idea of what it all does, executing it is debating between having to wait several levels or session versus having an early level dip and coming away with "free" mental stat bonuses. Balancing that is difficult, especially if you're not sure what else you can give the class for those later levels.

Originally Posted by Sgt. Cookie

It does say it stacks.

Must have missed it. My bad.

Originally Posted by Sgt. Cookie

Also, shaken, not shakened.

Whoops. Good catch.

Originally Posted by Sgt. Cookie

This was really intended as a general PrC, to allow older characters to continue in the fray. Other abilities will be added to replace IH and YS.

I like that. Lazier design is to make a casting class, but I liked what you did you your PrC. It feels very much like what some cantankerous old man would be like, if he decided to become an adventurer during a mid-life crisis.

Originally Posted by Sgt. Cookie

I don't know, I mean, if you didn't have a mind, then you wouldn't know what you are doing.

It makes sense, I understand that. My main issue with is is that because "mind-affecting" is such a broad tag, it often leads to weird monster types or abilities giving immunity to things that they really shouldn't or vice versa. As it's of a low uses/day, making sure you can almost always use it helps. Having it work on everything from the start is kind of silly, yes, but I like abilities that get "upgrades" from other class features.

Originally Posted by Sgt. Cookie

That's a good idea, actually.

It seemed to "fit," as it is not a true "fear effect" but more an ability that "withers" them, in so far as the flavor of it goes.

Stillsword response

Spoiler

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Originally Posted by Phosphate

I believe that absolutely no PrC is worth wasting a feat. You do get only 7 after all. I'll probably just remove that and pump up the BaB.

I mentioned endurance, simply because it fits the same sort of "naturally tough as nails" angle an above average constitution score would, except without weirdness-issues where if someone poisoned you, all of your abilities suddenly turned-off.

Originally Posted by Phosphate

Fits the flavor, and more than that. A Stillsword most likely didn't advance primarily in a full BaB class, or if he did, he lost a lot of skill points because the requirements are rather cross-class. So it's a nice bump to give him martial proficiencies for the effort.

Fair enough. I just always find it "odd." I like seeing new proficiencies, it's just that a lot of the time the impact is minor, either due to the "standard" entry being fighter X or really any base class that gives full simple and martial weapons.

Originally Posted by Phosphate

Actually, the system is pretty simple, though I admit I wrote it in a quite clunky fashion. It should be much clearer now.

Reading it was clunky. As 3.5 deals heavily in either squares or cubes of a certain distance (usually 5 ft. to a side), it's just easier to reference what's already there.

Originally Posted by Phosphate

Mkay, I'll take those one at a time.

1. The POINT of this class is to be used in conjunction with readied attacks and teamwork strategies. It's supposed to work like that.
2. Meh, maybe you are right. Squares are indeed easier to deal with (it will also make the class much stronger if you think about it). Except I'll use cubes, not squares.
3. They can't do anything. Least is pretty explicit about that (and Time Stop doesn't work the same way as my ability).
4. Anything that deals damage normally (i.e. to stuff like walls or wooden benches) damages the membrane the exact same way. Treat it like a real material.

The new wording makes much more sense. Seeing your intent helps, and having the ability be used creatively, such as in saving a dying ally is very nice.

Originally Posted by Phosphate

And that stops it from being abusable. An opponent loses a round anyway being stuck in the space, and ANOTHER one loses a round breaking it, if that is what he wants. Now, I will naturally increase the hp gain since when using cubes they can't increase every time, but using averages would just make the game too predictable for me. Personal choice.

The recharge time does help it from being truly spam-able, but the random HP can become annoying, especially with poor labeling. Using static HP makes it easier to predict, yes, but when you consider that it even just has Hardness, well, that could be enough, especially considering how objects take reduced damage from non-sonic attacks.

Originally Posted by Phosphate

It's finished. I don't see what you're not seeing . Missed the spoiler? Either way, yeah, forgot to explain the counterfluxes.

That's a hold-over from my first read through. My apologies.

Looking at the permeabilities, the reflex save for flying and falling creatures is clunky, considering the default is just to have flying creatures have their wings "lock" and glide or float, in the cases of magically flying monsters like beholders.

I see no reason why "Allow Swipes" to be just restricted to slashing damage. If it's a flavor thing, why not allow for piercing and "kinetic bombardment (read, bludgeoning damage).

Incarceration needs some clean-up on the wording. I know it does something to [teleport] effects, but I can't parse what exactly.

Cesation of Existence should say if things inside come back.

Originally Posted by Phosphate

Not all classes are for everyone, and for this PrC in particular the fluff is pretty precise. If Stillswords could be hasted, then good clerics should be able to command undead. It's the same thing really.

You can use it instead of normally attacking in melee, it basically is a normal at will melee attack (which means you can also replace Full Attack hits with Flashstrikes). And you are not forced to use it, so if you use a scythe and double your threat range with feats, you will obviously never Flashstrike. And denying dex is not that weak, considering most foes do NOT wear armor, and therefore make full use of their dex mod.

Denying dexterity is useful for setting up other forms of attack, such as Sudden Strikes and Sneak Attack, more so if they benefit the whole party. The issue here is Standard Action attack versus Full-attack. Denying Dexterity could be useful, say, against a light armored opponent, but you could still be housing yourself by doing one attack versus whatever your full-attack gives instead.

My main issue is that the "no crit" bit feels unnecessary. There are other (Su)-based attacks. They do weird things, but they all allow for critical hits to happen. By the time this ability comes online, you've also already got a minimum of three attacks per round on a full-attack. Is it nice to have for when you only have a standard action? Yes, but it's unfortunate that it has more drawbacks than benefits.

Originally Posted by Phosphate

1. I fail to see how letting some teammates avoid the negatives fits the flavor of the ability at all.
2. All targets within the ripple have concealment. This concealment is universal, they have it against everyone, not just those in the ripple. So yeah, if you're outside the Ripple zone and try to hit/shoot someone inside, you have to roll percentage dice to see if you hit. Also, targets within the Ripple can strike targets outside the Ripple normally (just as having Blur on you doesn't make you worse at attacking).
3. I really don't know what magic you're talking about :)).

1. You're a time wizard who may or may not have allies. Having conflicting abilities on PCs can be annoying, either because the two players are doing the same thing or because one's shtick hurts the others.

2. Mention this in the rules text then! Examples are good for that. Say if it follows the Stillsword in question or if he drops it and it "sticks" to the ground.

3a. It's a Supernatural ability. Thus, I assume it takes a standard action to activate (or is "always on"), and this leads to issues with how long it lasts and how many uses/day I have. It's fine for it to be "As a standard action, for Stillsword level rounds at a time, usable at will." I just want to know.

3b.I'm using "magic" as a catch all term here to ask about what happens if an enemy (or ally) using some random spell to do something. Generally, it's as simply as going "Wish, Miracle, and other (your choice, as the designer) 9th level and stronger spells are able to bypass this effect." Sometimes a lowly Dispel Magic can overcome the effect. Things like that.

Originally Posted by Phosphate

Dispelling and making it inactive for 10 minutes are largely different notions (especially since it does. not. stack). But fine, once per round added.

One person can have more than one magical item on them. Going "nova" and turning off all of their stuff in one round is poor design. Free actions (without constraints) can do that. Yeah, I understand not wanting it to be a swift action, but part of the point of swift actions is to prevent "I do these 17 different things, all of them are free actions!"

Also, for a fight, the difference between 10 minutes and forever can be the same thing: after all, being dead means not being able to use whatever it is got shut off. Having it function without a check also means it "just happens" with no chance to save against it or stop it. The standard is for most of these types of "dispels" to be as a caster level check, as if you were using some variety of Dispel Magic. If nothing else, it prevents weird cases were a plucky ~10th level character turns off the world-ending "epic" level artifact twice his cast level. Not saying treating it like Dispel Magic won't stop that from happening, just that it would make it less common.

Originally Posted by Phosphate

It makes perfect sense to me for a Stillsword master to be able to just negate everything lower Stillswords do with a mere thought, their abilities relying on will and all. Plus, at this point he's about level 18 or so minimum, and this is definitely not overpowered for that level.

Thanks a lot for everything! Will PEACH yours when I have time.

Eh, it doesn't sit well with me. I'd like it if it at least had some sort of opposed level check or the like happen, rather than just be a "Nope, I'm better than you, so I freely turn off all of your stuff!" Or the rather anticlimactic battle between two Stillswords where both spend a swift action creating stillspace before the other says "Nope."

Spoiler

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Originally Posted by Wings of Peace

"See these cookies? Note how while good they taste sort of bland. Now try these, they're the same cookies but with chocolate chips added. Notice how with the second batch we expended slightly more ingredients but dramatically enhanced the flavor? That's metamagic."

Originally Posted by Doc Roc

Seriously, can we kill this misconception now? A wizard is never late, nor is he early. He shops for precisely what he means to.

Re: GitP PrC Contest Chat Thread IV

Spoiler

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I mentioned endurance, simply because it fits the same sort of "naturally tough as nails" angle an above average constitution score would, except without weirdness-issues where if someone poisoned you, all of your abilities suddenly turned-off.

I understand. However...being poisoned resulting in you having a lot of your abilities turned off makes a lot of sense if you think about it . Hmm....that gives me an idea for a Kimimaro-based class....

Reading it was clunky. As 3.5 deals heavily in either squares or cubes of a certain distance (usually 5 ft. to a side), it's just easier to reference what's already there.

Well, there's also a lot of spheres in 3.5 . Divine spells, paladin auras, frightful presence, abjurations, spreads, emanations...the real problem with those is, as my first Stillsword draft showed, that spheres are kinda clunky when their size is relatively small (i.e under 30 feet).

The recharge time does help it from being truly spam-able, but the random HP can become annoying, especially with poor labeling. Using static HP makes it easier to predict, yes, but when you consider that it even just has Hardness, well, that could be enough, especially considering how objects take reduced damage from non-sonic attacks.

That's pretty convincing...meh, ok, I'll use averages.

Looking at the permeabilities, the reflex save for flying and falling creatures is clunky, considering the default is just to have flying creatures have their wings "lock" and glide or float, in the cases of magically flying monsters like beholders.

The thing with Kinetic Allowance is that the birds/other flying things fall without moving or thinking during the fall, so they are caught by surprise. It's not similar to the default because there's no other ability which works that way (stopping time for everything except gravity itself).

I see no reason why "Allow Swipes" to be just restricted to slashing damage. If it's a flavor thing, why not allow for piercing and "kinetic bombardment (read, bludgeoning damage).

The main idea is that the structure of the membrane is of a flowing semi-solid, through which very sharp things can pass without causing damage to the membrane itself. The reason why I'm allowing only melee weapons is that ranged weapons would simply timefreeze inside the Still Space without anything else to propel them (whereas melee weapons gain momentum from the hand of the user, which is experiencing time normally). As for why I didn't allow piercing damage, that was just an overlook, added now.

Incarceration needs some clean-up on the wording. I know it does something to [teleport] effects, but I can't parse what exactly.

Changed the wording. It should sound stupid, but also clearer now.

Cesation of Existence should say if things inside come back.

I usually assume that if an ability doesn't say something, that something is not intended to be said. But meh, added "and do not come back, save for the effects of Miracle, Wish and Reality Revision".

What bugs me is how a person who denies the very concept of time would want to be hasted. But we'll have to agree to disagree on this.

Denying dexterity is useful for setting up other forms of attack, such as Sudden Strikes and Sneak Attack, more so if they benefit the whole party. The issue here is Standard Action attack versus Full-attack. Denying Dexterity could be useful, say, against a light armored opponent, but you could still be housing yourself by doing one attack versus whatever your full-attack gives instead.

My main issue is that the "no crit" bit feels unnecessary. There are other (Su)-based attacks. They do weird things, but they all allow for critical hits to happen. By the time this ability comes online, you've also already got a minimum of three attacks per round on a full-attack. Is it nice to have for when you only have a standard action? Yes, but it's unfortunate that it has more drawbacks than benefits.

Um...no, you got it wrong. Any. Normal. Attack. Can. Be. Substituted. With. A. Flashstrike. So if you have a BaB of 16, you can Flashstrike 4 times in the same turn.

It is basically just an either-or decision between "Do I want to deny dex?" and "Do I want a chance at critical?".

1. You're a time wizard who may or may not have allies. Having conflicting abilities on PCs can be annoying, either because the two players are doing the same thing or because one's shtick hurts the others.

True, but there is no conflict to speak about, because Ripple has NO NEGATIVE EFFECT on your allies. It simply gives a positive effect to your opponents.

2. Mention this in the rules text then! Examples are good for that. Say if it follows the Stillsword in question or if he drops it and it "sticks" to the ground.

I don't think you read the ability carefully. Direct quote: "in a 200 feet area around him". Around him.

3a. It's a Supernatural ability. Thus, I assume it takes a standard action to activate (or is "always on"), and this leads to issues with how long it lasts and how many uses/day I have.

Another case of not reading carefully. Direct quote: "This ability can be suppressed or activated by the use of a swift action.".

3b.I'm using "magic" as a catch all term here to ask about what happens if an enemy (or ally) using some random spell to do something. Generally, it's as simply as going "Wish, Miracle, and other (your choice, as the designer) 9th level and stronger spells are able to bypass this effect." Sometimes a lowly Dispel Magic can overcome the effect. Things like that.

Ripple does nothing more than offer concealment . Spells work exactly as they would work on targets with concealment on them. If a 9th level spell ignores concealment, it ignores Ripple, if it doesn't, it doesn't. Again, I usually assume that if an ability doesn't say something, that something is not intended to be said.

Also, for a fight, the difference between 10 minutes and forever can be the same thing: after all, being dead means not being able to use whatever it is got shut off. Having it function without a check also means it "just happens" with no chance to save against it or stop it. The standard is for most of these types of "dispels" to be as a caster level check, as if you were using some variety of Dispel Magic. If nothing else, it prevents weird cases were a plucky ~10th level character turns off the world-ending "epic" level artifact twice his cast level. Not saying treating it like Dispel Magic won't stop that from happening, just that it would make it less common.

AMF lasts 10 minutes PER level. That is all I have to say really.

Eh, it doesn't sit well with me. I'd like it if it at least had some sort of opposed level check or the like happen, rather than just be a "Nope, I'm better than you, so I freely turn off all of your stuff!"

Re: GitP PrC Contest Chat Thread IV

If we're proposing theme I got a few idea too.
-Prc based on a specific spell or power of choice (like the force missile mage or the constructor)
-Prc based based on having a companion (animal companion, familliar, special mount, etc...)
-Hybrid theory 3 (perhaps too soon ?)
-Prc based on teamwork (aura, bardic music, teamwork benefit, etc...)

Re: GitP PrC Contest Chat Thread IV

Originally Posted by Pyromancer999

Or a theme about themes? Just saying.

This made me think about bards and music genres. Then I realized some are likely a lot more popular than others, whilst there are a number of rock/metal bard PrCs out there already, making it harder to be original. To boot, more popular music genres would likely sooner nab fluff votes.

Then I thought about hipsters. Which seems like a good theme and a bad theme both at once.

Hybrid Theory is great, but it might be too soon (and at some point we'll run out of classes to hybridize, so we might want to save that one).

The draconic theme suggestion makes me think we could try a theme where a person makes a PrC either heavily tied to the Dragon part of DnD or to the Dungeon part, but that's more of a dual theme.

Current Projects:EMPIRE! -- A Community World-Building Game full of role-playing and strategy

Re: GitP PrC Contest Chat Thread IV

Originally Posted by C'nor

How about a non-bard based off a single song, of any kind?

Like that??:

Buddy you're a boy make a big noise - Move silently not class skill

Playin' in the street gonna be a big man some day - req: Knowledge local some ranks, gender male.
You got mud on your face - req: Hide some ranks
You big disgrace - Can trade in Ex-Paladin level
Kickin' your can all over the place - req: Improved unarmed strike
Sing it! - ...

We will we will rock you - Level 1: +1 damage with slings
We will we will rock you - Level 2: The same.

Buddy you're a young man hard man - Level 2: +1 Natural armor
Shoutin' in the street gonna take on the world some day - Something really good on the last level.
You got blood on your face - Level 3: Bonus to attack and damage when below 50% hp.
You big disgrace - ...
Wavin' your banner all over the place - Level 4: +1 moral bonus to attack for allies.

Re: GitP PrC Contest Chat Thread IV

Originally Posted by Maraxus1

Like that??:

Buddy you're a boy make a big noise - Move silently not class skill

Playin' in the street gonna be a big man some day - req: Knowledge local some ranks, gender male.
You got mud on your face - req: Hide some ranks
You big disgrace - Can trade in Ex-Paladin level
Kickin' your can all over the place - req: Improved unarmed strike
Sing it! - ...

We will we will rock you - Level 1: +1 damage with slings
We will we will rock you - Level 2: The same.

Buddy you're a young man hard man - Level 2: +1 Natural armor
Shoutin' in the street gonna take on the world some day - Something really good on the last level.
You got blood on your face - Level 3: Bonus to attack and damage when below 50% hp.
You big disgrace - ...
Wavin' your banner all over the place - Level 4: +1 moral bonus to attack for allies.

Re: GitP PrC Contest Chat Thread IV

I think that by rule of law we should try to hammer a paladin into EVERY concept from now on, just the heck of it.

And HOLY **** ERRANTX IS ALIVE??!?!?!

I can get behind that.

And yeah, surprisingly enough, I actually got a week off from work. So let's get a contest going here today, shall we? Miss being able to actively participate as heavily as I used to, but I have this week and a need to make it happen.