Open Thread: The strike zone is slightly amorphous

David Biderman at the Wall Street Journal posted a look at the strike zones called for each player on the Mets and Yankees, and to no one’s surprise, star players get star treatment. Well, except for Alex Rodriguez. Apparently some umps are out to get him, because strike zone is the third largest on the team. One of these days we’ll have robot umps and laser traced strike zones and everything will be nice and uniform. Until then … the human element!

Anyway, here’s tonight’s open thread. For the latest on Andy Pettitte, see our injury update post. In sports, you’ve got NBA and NHL playoff action, plus the Cardinals and Phillies are on ESPN (Penny vs. Kendrick). You know the routine, so have at it.

It’s not so much the wrong calls that annoy me–I’ve umpired a lot over the last five years and it’s hard–but it’s that people seem so resistant to fixing these errors or improving the way calls are made that pisses me off.

Marcus

That.

http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

What I mean to say is that it’s okay if an umpire makes a mistake every so often, but it’s not okay if there isn’t some way to correct that.

http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

But umpires get the call right 99.9% of the time! Especially balls and strikes!

http://www.theyankeeu.com/ Nostra-Artist

I don’t know about 99.9%, but it’s redonkulously unfair of people to criticize the umps for what they see in slow motion that the umps have to judge in real time. I’m amazed how many calls they get RIGHT.

If you want to make an intelligent criticism of an ump, you could say he was out of position, simply wrong on the rules, called the tag instead of how close/far the play was from the bag, stuff like that. But to say he got a close call wrong after watching the slow-mo replay is just Monday morning quarterbacking.

ethan

Guys–A-Rod’s still getting a strike zone that’s smaller than league average–92.1% of league average, so not exactly suffering from hatred, is he? He’s just not getting same level of treatment as Jeter.

This is fascinating but there’s absolutely no information on if this data’s statistically significant or not, so I’d take it with a big grain of salt. Furthermore, strike zones expand and contract depending on the situation and the count. So, a patient hitter who gets into lots of hitters counts could actually see a larger strike zone. Similarly, A-Rod, by batting 4th in the Yankee lineup, might come up with men on base more than the average MLB hitter–and in situations that favor the hitter, the strike zone expands.

ethan

I’d also love to know if a player’s zone changes when he changes teams. The Yankees are renowned for being patient–you get put in the middle of that patient, brutal lineup, do the umps give you an edge?

Yeah, Sutt. They did such a great job of rallying their team in Game Four, too. Wait, what?

http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

And it’s also worth noting that the Yankees had a small comeback in Game Five.

http://twitter.com/rebexarama bexarama

wait, what?

dkidd

i’ve never umpired, so i may be wrong, but isn’t crouching behind the catcher a terrible position from which to judge if the ball crosses the plate? wouldn’t a person looking at a (true) centerfield camera angle have a better view?

http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

It’s about the same. I’d get a bit better view of where the ball crossed from behind the mound, but I got a better view of the corner while crouching.

dkidd

aren’t there times when a catcher’s head or shoulder blocks one side of the plate and the umpire just (educatedly) guesses?

http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

Well, I didn’t stay in one spot the whole time. If the catcher moved, I’d move with or against him to get a better view of the plate. I also umped for mostly 10-13 year olds, so seeing over them was never much of a challenge. The trade off? They weren’t tall enough to get a lot of foul tips and I got hit in the face a few times.

dkidd

ever have to toss anyone?

was about to ask “ever give a kid the thumb?” but decided against it…

dkidd

as i was hitting submit, i realized “toss” is also dirty

/chappelle’d

http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

Haha, nah. I came close to ejecting a parent last year, though. I told him if he didn’t like the strike zone, the other umpire and I would leave and he could call the game from right field where he was sitting. The coach of that guy’s son’s team then gave him a tongue lashing and said that if he ever tried to show up an ump like that again, his son would sit. It was awesome.

The guy did apologize to me after the game, which I wasn’t expecting.

dkidd

good for the coach

i’m already working on ways to stay calm when my son starts little league

http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

My number one tip: remember it’s for the kids, not you.

dkidd

that tip is:

profoundly true
applicable to every moment of parenting
frustratingly hard to remember

http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

Haha, yeah. I hope I remember it when my time comes.

ROBTEN aka don’t call me Dr. Robert Matthew Tennyson II, Esq.

I umpired for a brief period of time and parents were always the worst. I mean, we were umpiring like 8-10 year old kids and you’d have games where parents would just be screaming the entire time.

For real. The coaches would be pains in the ass at times, but the parents were definitely worse.

Salty Buggah

Even though he may or may not take a single snap this year, Tim Tebow’s jersey was the #1 in sales for April. That’s why the Broncos drafted him. He’s a revenue machine…at least for now.

http://twitter.com/marcos_aguirre Marcos

I’d like to see what NJ’s strike zone looks like, just to see if his reputation precedes him.

http://www.soxandpinstripes.net JGS

I fear this is a season ending injury for Andy. :(

same guy, two minutes later: And I have a feeling we will get swept by the Sox this weekend — all 3 games blowouts.

Yay LoHud comments!

http://twitter.com/rebexarama bexarama

I was reading them before and even I, who love reading stupidity, had to stop. They were just… wow.

On the other hand, the Andy Pettitte thread on NYYFans turned into a (children, look away) dick-measuring contest about who had called it that Pettitte was hurt and what kind of idiots everyone else was for not being terribly worried, someone gleefully calling that he’d have to get TJS, etc.

http://www.soxandpinstripes.net JGS

Yeesh–I can’t bring myself to read NYYFans. I don’t even read LoHud comments unless a) someone here mentions something particularly dumb that they said, or b) I feel like reading cliff-jumpers talking–usually coinciding with news like “Pettitte had an MRI on his pitching arm”

Kudos for being able to wade through NYYFans. People were actually hoping he would need TJ?

http://twitter.com/rebexarama bexarama

I read a comment on LoHud that was like THEY ONLY SAID ANDY HAS MILD INFLAMMATION BECAUSE THEY DON’T WANT TO TELL YOU HOW BADLY HE’S HURT!!!!!!!!! and I just had to stop reading. Also, there’s ONE USER there that is way too worried about everything to the point where it is ridiculous. I will not name names.

I don’t think the person necessarily wanted Pettitte to get TJS. They were basically just like “TJS, here we come!!!!!” when the news broke. Then someone pointed out that if he needed that, he’d probably just retire. Then it turned into a mini-debate about how greedy Andy is, or something. I don’t know. I’m really surprised at how easily people get into fights on other boards/comment sections and stuff. Of course there’s sarcasm and snippiness and stuff here, but it’s mostly civil.

I HAVE seen people on NYYFans in the past wish Andy and AJ get hurt so that Joba/whatever other prospect they’re all googly-eyed over at the time can start. I’m sorry, I understand frustration over the fact that Joba’s not in the rotation, but that line of thinking borderline offends me. How the HELL do you actively want two very good, productive members of your team to get hurt? Stop it.

http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike Axisa

Don’t even waste your time on that site. It literally rots your brain.

http://www.mystiqueandaura.com Steve H

David’s fine,’’ Pedroia said. “He’s one of our teammates. It could have been me that hit into a double play. It happens to everybody, man. He’s had 60 at-bats. A couple years ago I had 60 at-bats, I was hitting .170, everyone was ready to kill me too. What happened? Laser show. Relax. I’m tired of looking at the NESN poll: ‘Why is David struggling?’ David’s fine.

I hate Pedroia, but that’s pretty funny.

http://twitter.com/rebexarama bexarama

Did you see the actual interview, with the way he said these lines and stuff? It was hysterical. Pedroia seems like a terribly funny guy, actually.

I tried to get a “mystique and aura” reference in, but he didn’t post it. Sooner or later I’ll get one in there Steve.

http://www.mystiqueandaura.com Steve H

Sweet.

http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

So remember this time last year when Ibanez was raking and a lot of people were trashing those who called his contract a bad deal? Good times.

Jose

Wasn’t he doing unbelievably well in the field too? I seem to remember people saying that he turned it around as a fielder.

http://www.soxandpinstripes.net JGS

Amazing what happens when you give someone a smaller field

http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

Yeah, I believe he was.

http://twitter.com/rebexarama bexarama

I think he had the best UZR of any qualifying LF in the NL, actually. I remember they were asking him about it on MLBN and he had obviously never heard of UZR but was trying to answer the questions anyway. It was pretty hysterical.

http://www.soxandpinstripes.net JGS

Yup–with a 3.8 (big caveat–there were only 7 qualifying NL left fielders. Soriano was in second place with -3.0)

http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

That is probably the worst call all year. Absolutely awful.

http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike Axisa

Brendan Ryan? I think he called him out just for being stupid enough to slide into first.

http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

Haha, yes that call.

Chris

Has anyone actually demonstrated that it’s slower? It’s clear that sliding feet first is slower, but diving head first should give you enough extra reach that it’s faster. Of course, there is still the injury concern…

Also, if it’s truly slower to dive, then why doesn’t anyone get outraged when an outfielder dives to make a catch?

http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

I’ve always argued that sliding isn’t about speed at all, but instead about avoiding the tag and slowing yourself down so you don’t overrun a base. Without the necessity of a tag and the ability to run through first, there’s no reason to slide into that bag.

Hangoverologist

I went nuts seeing that. I saw the replay and the ball wasn’t even in Howard’s glove and the ump called him out. Absolutely terrible call.

http://twitter.com/rebexarama bexarama

I did that too. I think the guy that was out at third was safe, too.

Cecala

I hope the Flyers win tonight, I hate the Bruins.

Yankee1010

A tour de force in bad umpiring in Philly.

Also, the 1B ump missed the last out of a triple play in Boston right now.

Hooray for humans and no instant reply!

http://richardiurilli.wordpress.com/ Richard Iurilli

My fantasy team is the anti-Mark Teixeira. It has seemingly forgotten to hit since the calendar changed to May.

http://twitter.com/marcos_aguirre Marcos

Meh, I’m just having these odd mini-team slumps/surges. Like I don’t have average days, My entire team can’t hit it one day, or smacks the cover off of it the other… strange.

http://richardiurilli.wordpress.com/ Richard Iurilli

Heh, are you sure we’re not talking about the same team?

http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

Making steak, garlic bread, and a salad is a lot of fun and very tasty. Cleaning up the dishes alone is not fun.

http://www.theyankeeu.com/ Nostra-Artist

Try cutting back on the garlic bread.

kunaldo

This. Though it IS tasty.

http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

Has there ever been definitive proof that defenders play better against pitchers who work faster?

http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

This should read “behind” pitchers….

Anyone?

http://www.mystiqueandaura.com Steve H

alex gonzalez (Santo Domingo, D.R.)

Hello Wally, Cano’s head seems to be in the right place this year with less laziness in play making. Do you think his hot start to the year is for real?
Wallace Matthews
(2:15 PM)

Alex, I don’t think there’s any doubt about that, and you hate to point a finger, but the talk was that he and Melky Cabrera were not the best influences on one another. all I know from this year is that Melky is gone and Cano is listening to Jeter and Rivera and A-Rod, guys with great work ethics who always have their priorities straight on game days, and there hase been a tremendous difference in Cano’s play both at the plate and in the field. Plate discipline is much better, too. Suddenly, it seems like he “gets” it.

Bravo Jose.

http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

I love how Wallace says that they weren’t good influences on each other. Should it follow, then, that Melky would play better in Atlanta?

I’ve seen that a zillion times, but never made the connection. Now I giggle every time I think about it.

http://mystiqueandaura.com/ JMK the Overshare’s Mystique and Aura

Hahaha. That’s just awesome. Fantastic, Jose.

http://www.theyankeeu.com/ Nostra-Artist

Since were talking umpires, I was fascinated during the ALCS at how much trouble the umpire had with the low strike when 6’1″ Angels Catcher with zero flexibility Mike Napoli was behind the dish. With each pitch, Napoli kept trying to crouch down lower and lower to get his pitcher the calls, but in doing so was obviously putting himself at a disadvantage for the high wild pitch or for setting up to throw out a base runner.

Since we have an even larger (6’4″) Catcher in our own farm system with flexibility issues of his own, it’s something I found very interesting.

Hangoverologist

That’s only Polanco’s fourth HR? It seems like he has driven a lot more out.

http://www.theyankeeu.com/ Nostra-Artist

It just seems that way because he resembles the Great Gazoo.

http://twitter.com/marcos_aguirre Marcos

I thought Cervelli was the new Gazoo?

http://www.theyankeeu.com/ Nostra-Artist

He is, and apparently he’s very sensitive about it. Did you see how fast he tossed that batting helmet during last night’s triple? Dropped that thing faster than his virginity.

http://twitter.com/marcos_aguirre Marcos

hahahahaha

very nice

http://twitter.com/rebexarama bexarama

Ortiz hit another HR, lolAngels

http://twitter.com/rebexarama bexarama

also Ortiz has as many HRs as Tex and A-Rod combined. That’s just kind of funny.

Hangoverologist

Ortiz didn’t even have a homer this time last year.

Brad Toughy

Braves announcers just said that even though the Pirates would regret trading Nyjer Morgan, it would be offset because Andrew McCutchen looks like a nice player.

I’m fairly sure that it was Lastings Milledge going the other way in that deal and not McCutchen.

http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

I’m fairly sure that it was Lastings Milledge going the other way in that deal and not McCutchen.

I’m pretty sure that’s not what they were trying to say.

http://www.theyankeeu.com/ Nostra-Artist

Braves announcers have a few of their own teams trades to be regretting. The Tex deal for starters.

Brad Toughy

Traded away Adam Wainwright for one year (albeit a very good one) of JD Drew.

http://www.theyankeeu.com/ Nostra-Artist

Ooooooh, another good one. Scherholtz really pushed the envelope in his last few years as GM. Still a terrific organization, though.

http://richardiurilli.wordpress.com/ Richard Iurilli

Has anyone read The Body by Stephen King and seen the film adaptation of the book, Stand by Me? I’m writing a short essay on them and I’m wondering if there are any major differences.

http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

I’ve only ever seen the movie.

http://www.mystiqueandaura.com Steve H

Me too. And it’s awesome.

http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

Definitely.

http://richardiurilli.wordpress.com/ Richard Iurilli

That’s my problem. I saw the movie and loved it, but I haven’t read the book, and the paper is due tomorrow at 9:30, so I don’t have time to read it.

Zooboy

I think in the book a big dog gets bit by a rabid bat and terrorizes his family.

http://www.retire21.org Mike R. – Retire 21

IETCR

I enjoyed this Cujo reference

http://www.soxandpinstripes.net JGS

compare the wiki pages for the book and movie?

Marcus

Yes, I read The Body, but years ago. As I recall, at the very least there is a lot more filler to the story than the movie. For instance, like in the movie, the story is in the first person, “narrated” by one of the characters at a later age. But the narrator goes into tangents about other stories he’s written, with excerpts of those stories, etc. Some of it was quite explicit, if I recall.

Also, Lachance shoots Kiefer Sutherland in the book at the end, then a different group of kids go on a trek to find Kiefer’s body, creating an endless loop of kids finding bodies.

Ok I made that last part up, but the soundtrack for the book is just as good as the movie.

Great to see Romine off to the hot start. I’ve always thought of Ramirez as a reliever long term since he’s so slightly built, and that assumes he climbs the ladder. Lots of guys get tripped up at the upper levels, but he’s blowing guys away in Charleston, so he’s sure to get promoted sometime this year.

If Javy Vazquez turns around pitches like we all thought he would, believe it or not we could lose Andy for the whole season and be fine. Were already getting WAY more out of Hughes (and AJ) than anyone could have expected, so with Javy contributing we would essentially be looking for a 5th starter. If they don’t like our internal options of Mitre/Aceves (no, not Joba) then guys like Washburn are still out there to serve as a #5.

But this does not appear to be serious, so even without Vazquez getting his act together this appears to just be a bump in the road for an aging pitcher.

http://twitter.com/rebexarama bexarama

I clicked on that article all interested in reading it and got distracted by that picture of Andy. Ohhhhhh my.

I’m not. Too small of a sample to think he can’t still be effective. When he has outings that bring his BABIP against back down to normal levels, the numbers will be there.

http://www.theyankeeu.com/ Nostra-Artist

Considering he gave up 2 consecutive HRs and the one of his 2 outs went to the warning track, I’d say very.

http://twitter.com/rebexarama bexarama

Before today, I’d say not all that much, he was kind of getting bad lucked to death. But today… he was just missing badly and getting killed for it. It’s still a SSS, though.

http://www.secondavenuesagas.com Benjamin Kabak

Medium. He’s looked like garbage this year, and he’s not locating his pitches. That’s a recipe for disaster.

http://leutbneot.wordpress.com sam

Oh, man. I’m glad someone else wrote about this. The strike zone this year, pretty much all around, has been AWFUL. Amorphous at best, downright biased at worst (I’m thinking of Phil Hughes’ game before this most recent one – I’ve never seen someone get squeezed so hard just because he was a rookie facing a vet [Millwood, I think]). I wrote a piece about this on my blog but I didn’t think anyone else noticed or cared. I was SCREAMING at the TV every time Hughes struck out someone looking, only for it to be called ball four. Hughes battled valiantly against both the Orioles and the umps, and had a pretty good game, but would have made it at least another two innings if he hadn’t had to throw all those extra pitches.

This kind of thing really bothers me – the “vet” getting outside/inside/upstairs calls, while the “phenom” gets nothing. I was watching simultaneously on Gameday, and it was clear beyond all doubt that the zone was completely different for the two pitchers. I would love it if someone took that data and did some analysis on it… how much do umps give to vets, exactly? How much do they take away from young guys? I know Maddux was the master of this. By the time the 6th inning rolled around, he had the umps so completely in his pocket that he would throw 6, 7, 8 inches off the plate and hitters would HAVE to swing because they knew it would be a strike anyway.

RRRRRGH!

http://leutbneot.wordpress.com sam

EDIT: to my last post, I’m going to submit this query (how much do vets get vs rookies) to the guys at Replacement Level… sounds like a job for math geniuses. I’ll let you guys know if they crack it.

poster

Question: Arent’ strike zones SUPPOSED to be amorphous? I always learned that the strike zone was from your shoulders to your knees. I remember reading about pitchers complaining that Rickey Henderson had a “small” strike zone.

http://www.secondavenuesagas.com Benjamin Kabak

This is an amorphous neutralized strike zone. The neutralized strike zone should be the same for everyone, and the Wall Street Journal article says that it’s not.

poster

Let’s pretend for a moment, unlikely as it may seem, that I am a total blithering idiot. Are you saying that both strike zones are used? If so, how would that work? And if not, is only the neutralized strike zone used? I’m confused.

rafael

no, he’s just stating that the neutralized strike zone is amorphous … which it should not be (placing the adjectives together makes it read a bit weird).