My opinion has always been that 13% gives a good feeling of fullness on the mid-palate of a red. I generally believe that 13.5% in a white wine is too much; I can usually feel the heat at that level. In a red, it's a highish but decent amount. My general level of tolerance in reds is up to 14%. I don't like anything over that as it starts tasting hot and blowsy to me. Zins are a curious exception, as is Primitivo: I once had a 16% alc. Primitivo that was smooth as anything, with no palpable heat. But it was also quite glycerolic in texture. Having said that, even if a red is high-acid and only has 10% alc., that is still very much within my sphere of palatability. I have had a few of those, mostly red hybrids grown at small-farm country wineries way north of the moderating influence of the Niagara Peninsula. The wines were light, crisp and racy-dry. I did enjoy them.

Paul, I impressed. I had made the connection between % alc and taste/feel but not at the level you have. I will pay more attention. And Maria, after Paul’s post, I do not think coincidence is involved.

It had a heavy, rounded, smooth mouthfeel; home winemakers sometimes add glycerine to their wines "to improve mouthfeel" (though I never do as I am philosophically opposed to such additions). Having said that, the wine carried its largesse exceedingly gracefully.

JoePerry wrote:My ideal amount is whatever a particular wine is capable of carrying.

It's very different from bottle to bottle.

That would be my answer, too. I like Moscato d'Asti (5%). I also like Port (20%). But I would not like a 20% Moscato or a 5% Port.

I'll often utter a ritual blast about the upward creep in alcohol levels, and I certainly don't like out-of-balance "blockbuster" wines. Yet I've had a few remarkable table wines in the 15-and-up range, including some of the controversial Turleys, that just plain didn't show their alcohol.

The unqualified answer, according to Clark Smith of Vinovations of California, would be yes.

For those unfamiliar, Mr Smith runs a company called Vinovation in California. Using technology such as reverse osmosis he removes alcohol from wine to make a better tasting wine. Winemakers bring their wine to Vinovation, where the wine undergoes what Mr Smith calls "sweet spot testing". Using reverse osmosis, the wine is dealcoholized to various alcohol levels, and tasted side by side. At a certain point where the wine tastes the best, they have hit the sweet spot.

Here is an exert from Grapecraft, the Wine Technology Blog:
When we do a sweet spot trial, we reduce the original wine (via our recombinatory reverse osmosis permeate distillation process) to somewhere below where we think we want to end up. Then we blend the original wine in, or we bump the alcohol back up by adding back high proof alcohol, either way laying out fifteen or twenty wines which are different only in their alcohol content and separated by 0.1% alcohol. For example, we might take a 15.0% chardonnay and look at the range of 12.5% to 14.5%, 21 wines lined up: 12.5, 12.6, 12.7…14.4, 14.5%. You'd think the wines would just gradually get better, then worse. That never happens. There are marked differences in "harmoniousness." You see maybe one wine in siz that is focused. The rest are astringent and unbalanced. Kind of like the unfocused, defect-free wines you usually see on the market. The differences are pretty obvious.

Mr Clark has received lots of negative press for this process, as many people feel these technological innovations create Frankenwines. I think there is no doubt that there is an ideal alcohol level for each individual wine as shown by Mr Clark, whether you agree with the technology or not.

I hate to say this, but I think Joe Perry is right, the ideal is whatever the individual wine can carry. In California, that may be whatever sweet spot alcohol level that is created through technology.

Maria, you're definitely onto something, and how smart of you to notice. Higher alcohol wines are usually heavy, ripe/jammy, sweeter, and some have a taste that's not unlike vodka to me which I detest. I find that lower alcohol wines taste lighter, brighter, more focussed, and somehow more honest.

The next connection you're likely to make is with where wines come from. Wines from hotter climates produce riper grapes which means more sugar must convert to higher alcohol. For instance, in California's hot Paso Robles region, 14% is relatively low alcohol and relatively rare--15% is fairly standard and 16.5% not uncommon. Table wines are port-like.

My wine shopping and I have never had a problem. Just a perpetual race between the bankruptcy court and Hell.--Rogov

When it comes to how the wine tastes, I'm with Joe and Robin. I've occasionally blundered into a 16+% wine that held the alcohol well and showed no overt heat or "portiness". I've enjoyed these wines a lot. The only problem with them is that I can only enjoy one glass or so before feeling the effects. From the "effects" standpoint, I'd have to go with wines that are 13.5% or lower. It's nice to be able to drink a couple of glasses over a reasonable amount of time and only feel mildly affected.

Paul B. wrote:It had a heavy, rounded, smooth mouthfeel; home winemakers sometimes add glycerine to their wines "to improve mouthfeel" (though I never do as I am philosophically opposed to such additions). Having said that, the wine carried its largesse exceedingly gracefully.

I tried a wine last month with this character-a Zin with 16% abv It was supposed to be a late harvest desert wine, but went completely dry on them. Glycerine? Or just very heavy rich Lodi grapes?

...(Humans) are unique in our capacity to construct realities at utter odds with reality. Dogs dream and dolphins imagine, but only humans are deluded. –Jacob Bacharach

If the grapes are grown in a hot climate like CA with cool nights they are going to be very sweet. When there is a heat wave in Aug. and Sept. there are not enough pickers to get the grapes up in time because they ripen...they will ripen over night.

What do you want a winemaker to do use reverseO to remove the alc. Do you like wines that have been treated with RO?

The terrior produces uniquely low acid wines. There is nothing wrong with it...you are just conditioned by European thinking that is is not right because until recently they could not make ripe wines.

I have asked this question on another Board and have yet to obtain an answer.
How do you know please,what the abv of a particular wine is? You cannot rely on the label,as often it is inaccurate.
In South Africa a sample of wine is tested for abv % although obviously just a minute % of total production.What is the position in the USA and other countries and is there a device on the market to measure abv?

As usual, the answer is about balance--"whatever the wine will carry" is a reference to its balance, and I fully agree.

Having said that, I also like to be able to consume more than two glasses, so I prefer that winemakers stay on a path that allows them to create wines at lower rather than higher alcohol--in balance of course--and I'd rather they do it as naturally as possible.

That "sweet spot" philosophy has a point, but if you don't over ripen, dry out, and generally beat up the crop in the first place, you probably won't have to go looking for the sweet spot in a lab later on; it will appear naturally.

keith prothero wrote:I have asked this question on another Board and have yet to obtain an answer.How do you know please,what the abv of a particular wine is? You cannot rely on the label,as often it is inaccurate.In South Africa a sample of wine is tested for abv % although obviously just a minute % of total production.What is the position in the USA and other countries and is there a device on the market to measure abv?

In the USA, up to 14% a wine has 1 to 1.5% leeway, plus or minus. So, the answer to your question is: you never really get to know the alcohol level.

keith prothero wrote:I have asked this question on another Board and have yet to obtain an answer.How do you know please,what the abv of a particular wine is? You cannot rely on the label,as often it is inaccurate.In South Africa a sample of wine is tested for abv % although obviously just a minute % of total production.What is the position in the USA and other countries and is there a device on the market to measure abv?

All wines available in our monopoly are tested. If they do not conform to EU regulations, i.e. +/- 0,5%, they are relabelled to show the correct info. The exact % is of course not known. But it's close enough I guess.

I don't drink wine because of religious reasons ... only for other reasons.