Themacs wrote:Illinois has a smoking ban. As a non smoker I like it. It has brought a lot of controversy here as well as it sounds like there. Someone went as far as holding a smoking party at his auto body garage and advertised it. No authorites showed up but he proved his point it was his garage on his privately owned land.

I am a business owner (retail) and I sell ALCOHOL. I like when customers are not in my face blowing their smoke. Some people are rude in that way, most aren't. I like going out to eat and not having to choose smoking or non. My daughter has asthma so we would try to choose well ventelated places but now we don't.

Our law reads that one must smoke 15 feet from any opening to a building. May it be a door, window or drive thru. When the law was first passed people were HOT!!! Bar owners were upset, etc. Some got creative and built patios with smoking areas. I live in a college town (SIU) big bar town. Everyone is surviving. Yes, pain in the butt for smokers though. People push the limits, but now that the newness has died it is easier to swallow for the smokers. There are still bars down here that allow smoking. Is it leagal?? No, but they do it anyway. I still go there, it is my choice.

Not sure if my post really means anything but I wanted to let you know what we are going through.

That's just saying that as a business owner, you are happy that your competitors have been prevented from competing with you by allowing smoking. That's just crass selfishness. And, if there was such an overwhelming demand for smoke-free bars etc. as the anti-smokers pretend, then it wouldn't be necessary for them to pass laws to force it on everyone.

And the thing that's intolerable about those smoking bans is that their fundamental supposed justification, that of "public health," is based on scientific fraud. Scientific fraud is a violation of all the public's rights, and it's only special interests who benefit.

Don't assuming I have any opinion about bar owners. It is an unfortunate reality that too many small business owners don't take the time to keep proper books and often put themselves out of business by simply pulling cash from the till to pay bills, employees and even themselves. However, part of the reason I know about the situation in Appleton is because I was discussing opening a bar with a few friends. We actually were trying to use the smoking ban as an advantage, we figured out a way to modify the building to make an area "outside" specifically for the smokers.

It's like any other business that has a change in the market. The businesses that adapt will survive, those that don't will go the way of the american auto company...

It is also interesting that so many are worried about losing the smokers but fail to account for all those who are more likely to go out if they don't have to deal with smoke. Remember that a majority of the population DOESN'T smoke. Most of the people I know that smoke at bars only smoke when they drink so you won't lose them either. If Tomahawk goes non-smoking I might even consider going out in Tomahawk. Until then, I'd rather stay in Madison, Appleton, Eau Claire, Minneapolis, etc.

The market is supposed to be free unless there is some compelling reason for the government to interfere. The anti-smokers have no compelling reason, so they committed scientific fraud to falsely pretend that seondhand smoke is a danger to public health. That is the key issue.

The bar and restaurant owners who are supposedly fighting the ban refuse to challenge the anti-smokers' scientific fraud. They pretend instead that property rights are supposed to be absolute - while ignoring the fact that they have long submitted to a whole array of public health regulations which are not based on fraud. They act as if they want to lose, while putting on a charade of pretending to fight.

We had some discussions like this last fall under the topic "Protect Private Property Rights Of Business Owners In WI".

I'm always very wary and concerned when the government passes any laws to 'protect us' from something. When and where should the line be drawn? That's a tough decision.

California passed a no smoking law for bars and restaurants about 10 years ago. There was the usual amount of complaining and behavior adjusting from the business owners and customers for the first year or two. Even during that time I didn't see any reduction in the amount of business at a couple of bars and restaurants that I frequented. Everyone somehow adjusted. In fact some people that didn't smoke told me that they 'went out' more now that it was smoke free. And the smokers simply went outside or to an area that the business provided for smoking. They coped…

Is that 'unfair' to the smokers? Probably, a little bit. But, even now, I think they realize that it's not that bad and maybe gives them a little incentive to stop a habit they may have wanted to stop in the first place.

kmartell wrote:We had some discussions like this last fall under the topic "Protect Private Property Rights Of Business Owners In WI".

I'm always very wary and concerned when the government passes any laws to 'protect us' from something. When and where should the line be drawn? That's a tough decision.

California passed a no smoking law for bars and restaurants about 10 years ago. There was the usual amount of complaining and behavior adjusting from the business owners and customers for the first year or two. Even during that time I didn't see any reduction in the amount of business at a couple of bars and restaurants that I frequented. Everyone somehow adjusted. In fact some people that didn't smoke told me that they 'went out' more now that it was smoke free. And the smokers simply went outside or to an area that the business provided for smoking. They coped…

Is that 'unfair' to the smokers? Probably, a little bit. But, even now, I think they realize that it's not that bad and maybe gives them a little incentive to stop a habit they may have wanted to stop in the first place.

Those latter people aren't pro-smokers, they anti-smokers, and virtually all of them have been brainwashed with anti-smoker lies.

A Smoking Ban(d) topic has always led to lots of banter here. It's great!

I'm of the opinion that if someone is extremely passionate over a cause, to the point of being a zealot, they will believe everything and anything that is written or spoken to promote their passion. Enough said about that.

My husband's Christmas party was held in Marshfield, another smoke free community (also a cell phone hands free community), not a college town or bigger city. I had the opportunity to talk with the owner of the bowling alley/fun center where the party was held, who said he doesn't miss the smoke. He feels he, as well as his employees are healthier. Has it effected his business, yes, however, the comment he made was that most bar owners in the out lying smoking communities are experiencing less business too due to the economy. So he's not really sure that the smoking ban has been as much of the major blow to his business as the economy. It was nice not waking up with a scratchy throat and eyes. We attended a wedding in Tomahawk this past weekend at the Rodeway Inn, also a smoke free establishment. My husband, a smoker, commented on feeling better the next morning. It was nice not having clothes that needed to be aired out before packing them to come home.

I know there's propaganda on both sides of the issue, some of it's a little more "out there" than others, just my humble opinion. I know myself I'm more likely to patronize a smoke free establishment over one that allows smoking. I hope Wisconsin will join it's neighbors and have a state wide ban soon.

I'm of the opinion that if someone is extremely passionate over a cause, to the point of being a zealot, they will believe everything and anything that is written or spoken to promote their passion. Enough said about that.

My husband's Christmas party was held in Marshfield, another smoke free community (also a cell phone hands free community), not a college town or bigger city. I had the opportunity to talk with the owner of the bowling alley/fun center where the party was held, who said he doesn't miss the smoke. He feels he, as well as his employees are healthier. Has it effected his business, yes, however, the comment he made was that most bar owners in the out lying smoking communities are experiencing less business too due to the economy. So he's not really sure that the smoking ban has been as much of the major blow to his business as the economy. It was nice not waking up with a scratchy throat and eyes. We attended a wedding in Tomahawk this past weekend at the Rodeway Inn, also a smoke free establishment. My husband, a smoker, commented on feeling better the next morning. It was nice not having clothes that needed to be aired out before packing them to come home.

I know there's propaganda on both sides of the issue, some of it's a little more "out there" than others, just my humble opinion. I know myself I'm more likely to patronize a smoke free establishment over one that allows smoking. I hope Wisconsin will join it's neighbors and have a state wide ban soon.

And I'm of the opinion that zealots are people who will stop at nothing, including committing scientific fraud, in order to force their will on everybody else. That includes everyone who wants to shove a smoking ban down Wisconsin's throat, instead of allowing people to make their own choices.

All I did was post a notice of a public meeting. I didn’t think it would become so entertaining. Some people believe the Holocaust didn’t happen, the earth is flat and the Easter Bunny is real. You can find web sites that support these views….it takes all kinds.

Thanks again for the entertainment, it’s better than listening to Rush Limbo.

Hugodog, for your information the Easter Bunny IS real. I know because I saw him myself when I was gathering Easter eggs with some like 'minded' friends back in the late 60s. Granted, we weren't able to reproduce that exact experience but the memories do flashback a couple times a year.

So please, do your research before you make such outlandish claims. The Easter Bunny does NOT like to be mocked

what I posted was supposed to be an informational post. You are an angry, angry person. Only YOU would try to turn it into a name calling ordeal. Believe me I know how competition works! I just had a Wal-Mart open up next to me that has a liquor license as COMPETITION!!! You don't see me on here crying about. Crap happens...life goes on and you deal with it!!

All: my post was just some observations I have made. I wanted to give you a heads up. Yes, being in the liquor business I have many bar owning friends and I feel bad for them. I feel their pain, I too am a business person. I actually live in a town of 1000 and the local bar here allows smoking. Yes, indeed at first it was bad for the bars. But they are dealing with it and NONE of the bars have closed. I am not saying their tills feel the pain. I never said I agreed with the law, I do like it though because I am a non smoker. I do not think it is fair for someone to come in and tell me what I can and cannot do at MY place of business on MY privately owned property.

Gosh my informational post was totally turned around.

Life is not measured by the amount of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away.

what I posted was supposed to be an informational post. You are an angry, angry person. Only YOU would try to turn it into a name calling ordeal. Believe me I know how competition works! I just had a Wal-Mart open up next to me that has a liquor license as COMPETITION!!! You don't see me on here crying about. Crap happens...life goes on and you deal with it!!

All: my post was just some observations I have made. I wanted to give you a heads up. Yes, being in the liquor business I have many bar owning friends and I feel bad for them. I feel their pain, I too am a business person. I actually live in a town of 1000 and the local bar here allows smoking. Yes, indeed at first it was bad for the bars. But they are dealing with it and NONE of the bars have closed. I am not saying their tills feel the pain. I never said I agreed with the law, I do like it though because I am a non smoker. I do not think it is fair for someone to come in and tell me what I can and cannot do at MY place of business on MY privately owned property.

Gosh my informational post was totally turned around.

MY post was supposed to be informational, too. My post was about the corrupt and fraudulent science the anti-smokers use as a pretext to eradicate other peoples' freedom. But because your anti-smoker pals lack anything to contribute in that area, THEY turned it into a name-calling session. So stop blaming me. That's like blaming the victim of a lynching for "causing" the lynching.

(to use the CarolAnn technique) see the paste below - the first "slight" came from you - the total down turn of this thread came from you - you just obviously cannot take anyone stating their case unless it agrees with you - as you see people are trying to lighten this & get it back to a civilized level - maybe you can't do that - it is too bad you are such an angry person - I guess this board is just too ignorant for you.

Are you implying that I should just meekly submit to having anti-smokers spew lies and defamations in my face and take my freedom away? What arrogance. You think that other people are being unreasonable if they don't want you dictating to them? What total arrogance. And then open your slimy mouth and resort to cheap smears about working for the tobacco industry, when it's the American Cancer Society that corrupts and controls everything, including the tobacco companies, because you're incapable of engaging in an intelligent discussion about the scientific issues.

You know, it's funny that I don't have a clue what CarolAnn has been saying through out this whole thread because all I heard was things like, 'slimy mouth', Nazis, Heil Hitler and other angry reponses. Someone did say along the way that she's not letting her point get across, by the over shadowing hostility which is so upfront, it totally drowns out my ability to read her words. All in all it's been great fun perusing the thread.

logic1 wrote:(to use the CarolAnn technique) see the paste below - the first "slight" came from you - the total down turn of this thread came from you - you just obviously cannot take anyone stating their case unless it agrees with you - as you see people are trying to lighten this & get it back to a civilized level - maybe you can't do that - it is too bad you are such an angry person - I guess this board is just too ignorant for you.

Are you implying that I should just meekly submit to having anti-smokers spew lies and defamations in my face and take my freedom away? What arrogance. You think that other people are being unreasonable if they don't want you dictating to them? What total arrogance. And then open your slimy mouth and resort to cheap smears about working for the tobacco industry, when it's the American Cancer Society that corrupts and controls everything, including the tobacco companies, because you're incapable of engaging in an intelligent discussion about the scientific issues.

Instead of addressing the science, YOU insinuated that there is something wrong with people who object to being the target of lies and defamations. And then when I properly took offense at your arrogance and insensitivity, not to mention un-Americanism, you pretend that I attacked you.

Catfish wrote:You know, it's funny that I don't have a clue what CarolAnn has been saying through out this whole thread because all I heard was things like, 'slimy mouth', Nazis, Heil Hitler and other angry reponses. Someone did say along the way that she's not letting her point get across, by the over shadowing hostility which is so upfront, it totally drowns out my ability to read her words. All in all it's been great fun perusing the thread.

ALL of this is YOUR OWN FAULT, because you don't hear because you don't want to listen, and you don't see because you don't want to see - not because I didn't say anything. You are merely proving exactly what I charged.

Quite the contrare. You say 'not because I didn't say anything' ,believe me you have said plenty. And it is obvious that you spend much time wording your replies, they take an obvious amount of clear headed dedication to your 'cause' to put all those words together. However it is hard to take most of it seriously because of your ever present anger and hostility. That my friend Carol, is the end result of what is manifested from your posts. I have never been called a Nazi before, I'm more so a capitalist. To be a Nazi one would think you have to make statements that followed the Hitler Doctrine. I really don't have an opinion either way as to the contents of this whole thread. I believe a Nazi would have a strong opinion. To be called a Nazi because I can't concentrate on this thread is absurd. There are times when I feel I'm becoming senile and that is where the lack of concentration comes from on your posts. The only thing I may glean from your posts and what you believe, and stand for, is the overpowering evidence are anger, hostility and a failure to be diplomatic on your stand. ....."wow, did you hear that honey, I'm a Nazi"

CarolAnn, one thing I do wonder is, .....are you an old geezer baby boomer, like me, up and down all hours of the night or are you a student in Madison? I'd like to understand where you are coming from in that respect. One more thing CarolAnn, do you know that Jesus loves you ?Hate to get religous here folks, but sometimes I feel CarolANN feels she is all alone in this world.

For that matter, one of the skills that I have had to develop is of figuring out whether there is anything of substance in pseudo-technical writing which is laced with hostility and deliberately deceitful, from professional anti-smokers. And don't bother expecting them to be nice.

Carol Ann, I don't even begin to think you are the blame for a attention disorder. How or why would I want to blame my parents or my teachers for anything like that. I just feel that my attentions and intentions are, mainly to be specific, are just simply that I'm getting older. Too old to argue with anyone. I don't have an attention disorder, but more so, hard to pay attention to your rants and raves. They so over shadow your points, that that is affecting our attention to your posts. All that seems to be due to the fact that you are angry and hostile in all of your return replies with everybody. You definately are the most channel minded person I've ever encountered. It is plain to see that you truly don't see that in yourself. You seem to feel you are all alone in this big world to be consumed by your own righteousness. You lack a very important vision of diplomacy. Do you feel that because you run into people that don't have your expectations of being nice, that a good responce would not be nice either? I tried to be nice to you in my lastest few posts, but that doesn't seem to go anywhere, instead you come back and call me a Nazi. Nothing seems to help here folks. All I can say for sure is wow, I mean WOW WOW. Incredible. Do you feel you didn't make ANY friends at all, here on our forum? You say of different skills you have learned, do you really think you have learned some skills? Hazardly speaking, THIS is a case of blaming parents or teachers. Now I do know you're gonna beat me up again, so have at it. I can take it. My wife is way too kind to me all of the time, which makes me realize I haven't been abused lately. You're a real piece of work and a hard nut to crack. What ever happened to you? I also do know you don't feel that way at all. Much love, the Catfish!