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hackingbear writes "After text, pictures, and videos, China starts regulating Internet map publishing (here is the google translation.) The government believes that Internet maps can represent the state's sovereignty and its political and diplomatic positions in the international community — and consequently, inaccurate maps could harm national interests and dignity, produce bad political influences, reveal national secrets and harm national security, in addition to harming consumer interests. So from now on, publishing maps would require approval and (yet another) license from the state survey bureau. That means Google, Yahoo, etc., need to remove China from the map; or maybe they just pay up some officials and their agents to acquire yet another license. And our newest 80Gbps DPI monsters need to be upgraded to identify maps together with porn."

I know China is potentially representing a LOT of money. But, at some point, don't we just say "Fuck China"...and all the rules and regulations and monitoring they are wanting to impose on a system that has worked just fine without them for decades?

If they want to wall off themselves from the world, then let them. If they don't want to use what a company from another country is doing, fine just block it if you want to (or can) but, quit bitching about everything we free people do outside your fucking borders.

They want to kinda wall themselves from the world but still be part of it.

If we had governments representing people, then the UN would would have told China to where to go a long time ago and China would have become something Cuba could laugh at.

But instead, we have governments representing corporations. (we elect them but the corps control them) To ignore china because of their fascist ways is not good for the corporate bottom line and the CEO's annual bonus. So the corps will bend and jump through hoops until they control China as well. When that happens, we will have become Star Trek's Ferengi race. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferengi)

Oh it's all a large conspiracy. And by whom ? Let's see the jews, weapons merchants... no... capitalists, corporations AHA.Obviously the corporations remain nameless and there are no people involved, at all. Once I point out the people you will start decrying their evil intentions and your purity. Great. We'll get nowhere.

How about instead of blaming "corporations"* (why not "the devil" ? I like the devil. I think we should mention him more often) we start looking at the reality.

"China has resources we need if we are to have the standard if living "we" want. (and by we I mean first and foremost you and myself)"

Actually, they (along with India) are rapidly sucking up resources we need...mainly, oil.

We are having to compete with them on this, and I think this will soon get nasty. China holds so much of our debt (US), that they will likely start using this as leverage against us in oil concerns.

Frankly, I'd like to get off China's 'teet' with regard to the resources I think you're alluding to...cheap labor.

I'm quite worried about not having any more manufacturing in the US any longer. That is a national security issues if I've ever heard one. It matters not if we have all the energy needs we need...if our suppliers of goods cut us off...we're toast.

As another poster mentioned...I'd gladly start paying 10%-20% more for most of my goods if they were made/raised in the US. I'd much rather pay a bit of a premium to support the local manufacturer and local food grower. I'm lucky that I live in LA, where we get such an abundance of fresh seafood from the Gulf....but, when I travel the US, I'm shocked to see how muchh seafood and other animal protein foods are coming in from China, or other countries, rather than our own, where we often have higher quality, and regulations on anti-biotics, drugs and pesticides that can be used.

...quit bitching about everything we free people do outside your fucking borders.

I don't remotely support the way China's oppressing their people, but criticizing this move as "outside your fucking borders" is off-base. They're restricting what comes into their country, just like almost every country in the world does. If you live somewhere with no copyright laws, start hosting movies that can be downloaded in the U.S. and see if it goes ignored. The only difference is that China is even more oppressive and aggressive than the MPAA and their goal is to enslave their citizens, not just suck them dry.

because citizens with no property still have rights in this society? Like what? The right to spend every waking hour searching for a new boss until they starve to death?

Poverty and slavery are effectively the same thing, except the slave tends to be better off because he's valuable property and thus can't simply be left to die even if he becomes temporarily redundant. On the otherhand the temporarily redundant laborer in a society without slavery is for all free market purposes, worthless. He can't buy an

because citizens with no property still have rights in this society? Like what?

Two quick examples:1) I can get on slashdot and say "Fuck the MPAA" without fear of being snatched away in the middle of the night.2) If the MPAA wants to mess with me, they have to go through due process of law. Sure, the laws & courts are imperfect and lean toward the rich, but it beats the hell out of what China's got.

Suggesting that American big business is as oppressive as China's government is pretty fucking shallow...

What are you talking about? Your social safety net programs are actually the guy without a jog making a slave of me. I'm forced (on penalty of losing my liberty by going to jail) to write a check that's used, in part, to feed him.

Why does he have no job, and no prospect of getting one? Because he's been raised in a culture that tells him it's OK not to prepare for that possibility. You make it sound like the economy i

The Chinese, like the Americans, have sovereignity over their borders. That Americans (I'm one) wait for the Google truck to moon it and don't care, they also present images that are sometimes not very pretty.US freedom and liberty gives the Google video truck the right to drive down any public byway and video what they see, 24/7. Other countries can alter what they want the truck to do, and what is public versus private versus secret information at their will.

We've known about the military government in Myanmar for decades. We've done nothing about it except to advocate a democracy. There's little political will to do much about things in SE Asia after the Viet Nam disaster.Looking over the fence gets you a few yards. It would be great if China, along with other countries with oligarchical regimes would open their borders. Nonetheless, France is also increasingly hostile for reasons of their own; perhaps secrecy, perhaps vanity, perhaps privacy. All can be valid

Your xenophobia towards China seems to give your righteousness the same fervor of the people you condemn. You've tried them, found them guilty, and now you intend to vanquish them, all in one fell swoop. Step back for a moment.Revisit and understand history not only of China, but other nations including our own. This is not to justify actions that various Chinese governments have taken, rather to put them into perspective. I've been to China on several occasions, and while there is oppression, and lack of f

You share a commonality with every other American-- that our politicians don't fully represent our views. They can't as they're only 549 of them, and several hundred million of us.Yes, the Chinese censor the Internet. This is one of the smaller of their displeasing behaviors. Censorship is almost always a bad thing, except when the sensibilities of children are at stake.

The slumbering dragon slowly awakes after many years of dark ages. Their rulers are inexperienced, and their political system isn't as evol

1) Publish and push data all the way into their living rooms until they cut off the Internet for their people completely.

2) Publish in a flippant way: publish maps but when it comes to China put a graphic that says sensored by assholes in China.

3) Publish a website that shows ALL the stuff that China does not want their citizens to see/read/hear so that the entire rest of the world can see/read/hear it and know what Chinese government types have censored from their own people.

4) invite the Chinese government to come make the rest of the world sensor material for their benefit. I'm not saying war is good, but if you intend to tell them to fuck off they will either hide behind the wall or respond to that message.

Personally, I believe that no one should be buying ANYTHING made in China. Yes, I know it's next to impossible but I would spend an extra 10% to support companies from my country that make competing products to Chinese products.

The entire China issue is completely out of hand, and the best way IMO to stop it is to stop dealing with them. Stop buying from them. Stop selling to them. Do not go to the Olympics either. Don't watch the Olympics. In fact, I say we censor China altogether from the world's information, business dealings etc. Don't let them invest in anything anywhere else in the world. Lock up their assets that reside outside of China, close their Embassies... everything.

Yes, that will eventually hurt their people but it is their people that must overthrow the government in charge at this point.

So let me get this straight. Your idea of promoting an encouraging openness (which you and I agree is a good thing) is by completely shutting down China.That doesn't make much sense to me. I think if you spent even 20 minutes reading about Chinese history in the last century you would be far less ignorant of world affairs and specifically Chinese affairs. I am in no way defending totalitarianism or censorship. I just want to point out how rediculous your "solution" sounds.

The spirit of my post is not completely in disagreement with your feelings, however there is not much that can be said in reply to your post due to your lack of solutions that avoid the issues I tried to highlight.Basically, the two schools of thought there seem to be 'take it up the ass' to support the Chinese people or directly confront the Chinese government in some fashion. I'm going to stick my neck out and suggest that we not use the same diplomacy with China that the USA did with Iraq.

My suggestion is to increase communication. Just like in chemistry you speed up a reaction by increasing surface area. I think a solution is to not look at the world in black and white, to see the Chinese people are different from their government. I think the real way to further noble goals such as freedom is to educate people.When Google or anyone else censors, true they are hurting the world, Chinese and Americans alike. But this "evil" is a compromise which allows them to bring more and different knowle

You and many in similar situations are well positioned to help the world understand how best we can continue to push information out there for the Chinese people and to help erode the bonds placed on them by their government. Perhaps you will find such information and blogg about it so that all of/. can read more?

I agree that communication should be encouraged, but I wouldn't self-censor. Thus, I run a freenet node. We should deal with china if we don't censor our stuff, if they want us to censor or leave we should leave.

Except, there is possibly different ways to say 'Fuck China':
1) Publish and push data all the way into their living rooms until they cut off the Internet for their people completely.

By spamming?

2) Publish in a flippant way: publish maps but when it comes to China put a graphic that says sensored by assholes in China.

Are you sure Chinese care about your content? Remember, you must publish it in Chinese.

3) Publish a website that shows ALL the stuff that China does not want their citizens to see/read/hear so that the entire rest of the world can see/read/hear it and know what Chinese government types have censored from their own people.

Are you sure Chinese care?

4) invite the Chinese government to come make the rest of the world sensor material for their benefit. I'm not saying war is good, but if you intend to tell them to fuck off they will either hide behind the wall or respond to that message.

Are you sure they care?

Personally, I believe that no one should be buying ANYTHING made in China. Yes, I know it's next to impossible but I would spend an extra 10% to support companies from my country that make competing products to Chinese products.

Go ahead.

The entire China issue is completely out of hand, and the best way IMO to stop it is to stop dealing with them. Stop buying from them. Stop selling to them. Do not go to the Olympics either. Don't watch the Olympics. In fact, I say we censor China altogether from the world's information, business dealings etc. Don't let them invest in anything anywhere else in the world. Lock up their assets that reside outside of China, close their Embassies... everything.

Wet dreams. This never worked on a country with more than 1 billion people. BTW, do you ever realize how much US assets in China?

Yes, that will eventually hurt their people but it is their people that must overthrow the government in charge at this point.

You are very smart at this point, but if their people rise up and overthrow your government...

BTW, when you guys are discussing wet dreams, Chinese are fighting a fscking earth quake, I hope you realiz

Yes indeed "fuck China". It seems they are just testing how far they can push. They already got google to censor some of it's content inside China (right?) and now they want more. In the end they won't be leaving many alternatives than for the rest of the world to tell them to suck it.

Are they looking for a reason for war or something?

Well, ok, no reason to get carried away. Still, this is too much to ask for.

I think the freedoms referred to are the ones covered in the first amendment, not those covered in the subsequent nine. China has been responsible for censoring material regarding democracy and free speech. I don't see the US or the EU spending a great deal of time censoring material on communism or monarchy or any other goofy form of government. Regarding your comment that our rights have been slowly melting away, it seems that you are in for a little history lesson. Several times in the history of the US

They can no longer sit back and allow Democratic infiltration, Democratic indoctrination, Democratic subversion and the international Democratic conspiracy to sap and impurify all of their precious bodily fluids.

China will be able to pull this off only because Google wants to do business there.

Let this be a reason for those who talk about "do no evil" and "Google" in same sentence (except me:) ), as if it is some person and not a corporation whose only thing they are looking for is more money for their shareholders.

...the US gov would just get one of the ministers in sweden to lean on their mate in the police force and raid their offices there.

And thereby show that the US IS as bad as china and that, yes, other countries DO tell other companies what to do with online maps.

The US government has problems, but can somebody explain to me why stories that have absolutely nothing to do with the US government still attract US gov flames? This story is about China's oppression and mentions the fact that it may have an impact on a couple of US businesses. How is the US government involved any more than Holland's or France's? Yes, most of Google's censored map areas are in the US, but other countries have made similar requests and had them granted. I'm sure China could too. But that's a whole different ball game than requiring licensing and approval for posting maps...

While I understand your sentiment, there was a Congressional hearing and at least one bill about this very situation of US businesses abiding by foreign laws. Specifically internet companies in China.

An essential question here is how does national law work with internet companies who are global in reach. How do we deal with uplifting people in totalitarian regimes? Do we let them fend for themselves, or do we give them the same tools which have boosted our freedom? Even if they are crippled by local laws.

Yes there was. But, if we're talking about the same bill, the US was taking steps to penalize US companies for aiding these oppressive regimes. Looking at those kind of measures is exciting and should be applauded, not flamed.

Sure, they could decide to not do business in China at all, but how would that help anyone?

It would stop Google from burying information and propagating disinformation on behalf the Chinese government. The Chinese take your land, put a bullet in you head, and charge your child 50 yaun for the bullet. [wordpress.com] What do you think the official Google.cn story regarding that event looks like? Something is not always necessarily better than nothing. Google should leave China. Staying is most certainly "evil." Your argument is the same as saying that the Chinese people are better off with TVs even if eve

Well, considering the Dick Cheney had his house obscured... I suppose the answer is yes.

Unlike secret military bases and such, I don't think Dick Cheney's house was obscured because of any legal reasoning. My guess is that Google went along with obscuring it either out of an implied threat threat that they didn't want to bother wrestling with or just as a favor to the VP.

How ironic, given that there really is no border. Tibet is not an occupied country, it was conquered and annexed. Thus, no border. Anyone who insists there is a border is the one suffering from a 1984-like denial of reality.

Taiwan is obviously a de facto sovereign state. Beijing only exerts influence over Taiwain in the same way that they exert influence over any other country, i.e. by diplomacy, trade, and warfare. Thus the nutbars in the PRC government which insist that Taiwain is part of their country are just as deluded as anyone who claims that a border exists between Tibet and China.

The "Free Tibet" movement has done more harm than good because it has muddled the legitimate grievances of the Tibet people with the specter of secession of China's second-largest province.

It seems to me that the movement is made mainly of people who see a bad situation and feel good about themselves when they burn energy on it - Whether it makes any sense or not. No rational person thinks that bumper stickers or torch assaults will return sovereignty to Tibet (even if they wanted it), but nobody's accusing those folks of being rational... I guess it does a little bit to spread awareness of a rough situation. But, as you pointed out, it's spreading a misaligned image of the situation and

The Chinese government objects to maps that depict certain regions as being separate sovereign countries, such as Tibet and Taiwan, which the Chinese government holds are both part of China.

And even more sensitively, areas whose sovereignty is disputed with neighbouring countries. There are border disputes, small and large, with Vietnam, Nepal, Russia. Several island groups in the South China Sea (the Spratlys, eg) are claimed by China, and several other countries. Most are uninhabited but would allow a c

I will agree that, to the best of my understanding, there is no dispute over Alaska.I am not going to argue about either Tibet or Taiwan, as those are issues that are still under dispute. I will note, however, that neither of those regions have representation in the UN, and at least the USA does not officially recognize either as a sovereign nation.

I am not aware of the official policies of other countries with regard to Tibet or Taiwan.

Also, it was only an example. I could not come up with anything closer

There is, however, some dispute over the status of Hawaii and Puerto Rico.Very little of the world considers Tibet separate from China: not even the Dalai Lama thinks of them as separate, and accepts Chinese sovereignty. The issue is cultural autonomy and identity, which makes the issue more complicated. If it was felt that too many white people moving to Hawaii was diluting the cultural identity of that region and driving locals out of jobs and homes by economic pressure, would we feel comfortable with som

Well, the U.S. Government has diplomatically adopted the stance that they don't wish to officially challenge China's claim. It's not that they actually believe it or support it. And the U.N. is in pretty much the same boat. I'm sure the government would love to exert as much behind the scenes pressure to preserve Taiwanese independence as possible.

Of course they can. Basically, in order to produce any map, you have to somehow go and measure the area; if those who control the access the area don't permit you to enter or fly over it, you can't force yur way in; certainly not in the case of a sovereign country, but even on private land, in most cases. Of course, one could try one's luck with buying the information from whoever holds the pictures from America's spy sattelites, but I don't think the US government would like to seriously alienate China ov

Well, given that Google had "misplaced" Tibet [theregister.co.uk] and found a section of the Himilayas had moved [theregister.co.uk] several hundred miles, it depends on your definition of accuracy vs. the PRC's definition, I suppose.

Probably too accurate? Another message I got from the announcement was that the maps could contain "sensitive state secrets". We all know that the Chinese government has a rather strange interpretation of what constitutes "state secrets", but I guess they are concerned with having a too accurate map of the terrain in China, which could lead to military intelligence problems, for instance.

Does Google need to pay to use the map that China produced, or to even show the country on a map that anyone produced? Are they licensing the map itself, or the representation of China's IP of the shape and layout of the country itself? If it's the latter, that's just... ill.

What happens if they just ignore their weirdo regulations and continue to publish the maps? How about just not in China?

Google licensed PRC geographic data from Beijing United Map Technology Limited (just a guess translation) who has a electronic map service license from the National Survey Department (apparently the prime driver for the regulatory initiative). The reporter speculates that the regulatory initiave may be related to the competition between Beijing United Map Technology with its duopoly competitior, Beijing Map Advanced Technology.

The official reasons given by the Deputy Director of the National Survey Department are:1. Inaccurate boundaries show parts of PRC as soil of other nations2. Omission of south sea islands (disputed islands with Japan)3. Omission of Taiwan or labeling of Taiwan as independent4. Inaccurate boundaries between administrative regions and dissemination of important geographical data5. Annotation of sensitive, nonpublic, or national security information on the map.
(Think of Dick Cheney's house...)

Part of Google's objection is that there are no clear laws pertaining to online maps in PRC. Thus the regulators are not acting on a solid foundation. There remains wide spread confuson on what exactly is required by these regulations.

As for Google's choices, they are actively protesting this initiative. But unless they prevail or pull out of China they would be subjected to their laws and likely to adapt to publishing only authorized versions of PRC maps.

Your summary, which explains how this is a dispute about the use of data which was provided by a Chinese source, is much too focused and accurate, and prevents people from the ceremonial outrage which constitute their 2 minute hate against China. You should be ashamed of yourself.

But unless they prevail or pull out of China they would be
subjected to their laws and likely to adapt to publishing only
authorized versions of PRC maps.

...Which works well - Right up until Tibet, Taiwan, and Japan pass
similar laws.

IMO, if this decision came down to my personal call, I'd
just erase any disputed territories from the map completely. Countries
want to play games, they can play it over places no one can find on
the map.

What happens if they just ignore their weirdo regulations and continue to publish the maps? How about just not in China?

Or Publish China-Politico Maps as a separate option from Free-Tibet Maps. This reminds me of Arab countries cutting Israel out of inflatable globes donated for education (which of course made the inflatable globe uninflatable), except stupider.

Hopefully google will publish one map inside of China, and a more sensible, complete map for the rest of us.

I wish I had tracked this a little more closely, but for a couple of decades ordinary maps of Kentucky in atlases like Rand McNally and Hammond did not indicate the existence of the city of Fort Knox, despite showing far smaller cities.

It was actually a little bit exciting to see the map in Ian Fleming's novel Goldfinger, showing the United States Bullion Depository located at the intersection of Bullion Boulevard and Gold Vault Road. In those days before Wikipedia [wikipedia.org] and Google Earth, this gave at least one reader frisson of forbidden information. I wondered whether Fleming would be the target of any mysterious reprisals for publishing it.

It's nice to see that the Chinese Government have learned from their western counterparts that anything you do in the name of "protecting consumer interests" becomes allowable. Their next lesson: "think of the children".

Forgive me if I'm stating the obvious, but it looks to me like the intention of this is to prevent Chinese citizens from seeing any map that recognises Taiwan or Tibet. Any one remember Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri? - Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he

If people get used to seeing "The Republic of Taiwan" instead of the "Shitty, Upstart Province of Formosa (or China's name for it) that Dares Act Independent," then that would give people the expectation that Taiwan is a sovereign country. If China goes to war, then it's not to reclaim a break-away province that has been acting like a renegade, but rather just another conquest like Iraq on Kuwait.

Maps do have real political value behind them. There are a lot of people in Mexico that would love to see the reconquista of the Southwest, and the Mexican government has said in the past that expanding its territory back into the original territory is its goal. That's actually why the map that Absolut did in their advertising campaign was so controversial in the U.S.

So how does removing a region from a map work? Won't the area have an outline defined by the neighbouring nations and geographical formations identical to that which is covered by China? Tibet will still be there; it'll just have a big black blob designated "Rescinded" next to it, instead of a geographical representation of China. The blob will just so happen to cover China's area of influence, though.

When China is talking about sovereignty, and "national interests and national dignity" they are really talking about having Taiwan (and maybe Tibet as well) labeled as independent nations.

Basically, they do not want any maps to be available on the Net to their own people (or anyone else, but that is impossible) which contain such counter-revolutionary ideas such as an independent Taiwan(even if only de facto).

Basically, they do not want any maps to be available on the Net to their own people (or anyone else, but that is impossible) which contain such counter-revolutionary ideas such as an independent Taiwan(even if only de facto).

No problem. Just show all of China as one country... with the capital in Taipei.

Argentina streets aren't in Google maps either. I've heard tons of versions regarding why practically every southamerican country but Argentina don't show up there. Including, and this one came from a Google employee, that the military/goverment didn't want to give "sensitive" information (Read: The bribe wasn't good enough). So they were looking for third party mapping companies to buy the data from (Read: Unhappy employee)MSN Live has streets but it seems they've used very old data as they show streets th

The South China Sea all the way to Malaysia and Philippines as being a part of China. Needless to say, the map treats all other seas, gulfs, and bays on the globe as being international waters.Chinese culture seems to me to still be in the 19th century in many regards, and unable to engage in self-criticism. I've never met a Chinese person who could admit opposing points in relation to Tibet for example, notwithstanding that these people are all intelligent and decent in other regards.

Might this have something to do with the fact that China just had a large earthquake and in usual fashion they are trying to control the news of it. They essentially want to make such events seem very minor, and make it look to foreign eyes that they recover from such disasters in almost no time at all.

And no it's probably not to just cover this one earthquake's damage, but really to cover news of future floods, quakes, fires, etc from outside eyes.

People who wanting to breathe in and out will need to take permits from Secretariat of Breathe-in and from Secretariat of Breathe-Out respectively.

Plans for regulations on Bodily Biological Gas Emissions by the Ministry of Natural Gas Resources are told to be underway, and citizens are urged to get their butt sizes measured at the nearest municipal authority.

Remember, in China (and, increasingly more places), the truth is what they tell you it is. Their view on how information is handed out is a little different than ours...

Actually, the trend is going the other way. Governments have always tried to control the truth. What is changing is our knowledge of their actions.
They aren't doing it more, they're just being caught doing it more often.