So, I kinda just decided I wanted to start with yes people, I think I actually have a somewhat concrete interpretation on what exactly Lobsel Vith is and what their function is (I only say this because I've found little to no info on Lobsel Vith anywhere, point me to more if there is some with info I did not understand). Now, let's get start.

For preliminary stuff let's assume that BurningMan's theory of the Father of God is correct (i.e. http://www.silenthillforum.com/viewtopi ... her+of+god ) although let me clear up some of the phrasing that I find misleading or incorrect perhaps so that how I understand the theory is made clear before I build upon it with my understanding so the basis of what I'm saying is understood. First of all, remember that while if we accept this theory that the Sect of the Holy Woman focused on creating a Mother of God while the Sect of the Holy Mother focused on creating a Father of God, I think that this would also mean that the Sect of the Holy Woman conjured a Father for their vessel (Incubus would be the father in this case to the vessel Alessa), while the Sect of the Holy Mother conjured a female counterpart, which requires a little more explanation to fully flesh out what I mean. The symbolism is very clear, Room 302 in SH:4 is meant to symbolize a womb and Walter believes it is his mother. In the same sense, I think that the room is meant to be a 'Womb of God' of sorts. The basic idea being that if the impregnation of the Incubus where combined with the womb created in 302, this would be the perfect condition to give birth to God or Paradise (or both). Important to note here is that I think that the 'impregnation' process is more like some sort of possession, as you fight the entity known as Incubus in the end of SH:1. So, let's take this further and see what exactly this means then. The god responsible for the Crimson Ceremony is taken to Xuchilbara, or the Red God, for a few reasons such as the color association and the flower symbolism ("The beauty of the withering flower and the last struggles of the dying man, they are my blessings."), which connects because Xuchilbara can be translated from Aztec loosely to mean "Flower Spear". I would also suggest that the underlying theme of birth and/or rebirth can be seen in the womb imagery, the flower imagery, the Rebirth Ceremony, the Ritual of Holy Assumption, and the Ghosts/Twins in SH:2 and SH:4. Thus if God responsible for the creation of the womb in SH:4 is Xuchilbara, and Xuchilbara is the Red God, then the counterpart of 'her' would be responsible for the impregnation, thus the counterpart of the Red God would be the Incubus. The counterpart of the Red God though if we're going by pure mythology is the Yellow God, Lobsel Vith, and thus Lobsel Vith is the Incubus! So, to summarize, Lobsel Vith is supposed to 'impregnate' a host by essentially channeling himself into the host (like a possession) who has become a vessel of the god Xuchilbara who acts as the womb of Lobsel Vith, and the mingling of this womb (Xuchilbara, the feminine) with this seed (Lobsel Vith, the masculine) creates the God, or Paradise. However, in the 1,3, and 4th games these attempts really create only a half version of the god as the other half of the God is missing and so it's only more of a demigod channeled into flesh. That the mingling of Xuchilbara and Lobsel Vith would create God again makes sense, as the God's creations seemed to be imbued with her energy, and so it follows that they could be used to reconstitute her.

Now, let me counter another competing claim with good evidence for it, mainly The Adversary's claim that Incubus/Samael is really Metratron/Valtiel ( viewtopic.php?t=8962 ) [Edit: I actually misrepresented The Adversary's point of view in the comments below, so I will summarize them as they actually are below so that I can clearly address what his actual viewpoint is as it's a serious counterclaim to what I'm asserting even after I've come to understand it better. I'll leave this previous argument up here in the interest of representing how the discussion has evolved from it's beginning, read if you're interested or skip if you're not]. The reasoning posited for this is that Samael and Metraton are the same, Valtiel in the Order's beliefs is analogous to Metatron in Judeo-Christrian beliefs, and Incubus bears the Seal of Metatron on him. I agree that these are good points, but would like to offer a rebuttal to the idea that Incubus is Valtiel. Now, just because the Incubus is marked with the Virun VII Crest does not mean that it is Metatron, anymore than the Seal itself or the various other things marked by it are Metatron, which The Adversary clearly argues against throughout this thread and in the opening. There are a couple reasons that this might be I think. Perhaps Valtiel used the seal in this instance simply as a brand, as in he used it literally as a mark of metatron, in order to mark what he was protecting. Another reason perhaps is that since the seal meant so much to Alessa it ending up making an imprint on the god child she was holding. Nonetheless, I think that there are a variety of reasons the crest would be on the Incubus and it does not in and of itself support that the Incubus is Samael. As for why the entity is called Samael by Dahlia, I'm not positive on all the dialogue in SH:1 anymore but does Dahlia refer to Samael in and of itself for the God and not the Mark of Samael? Even if she does, perhaps it is simply because, like with Walter, Valtiel was placed into Alessa on some level to guide the birth and so Valtiel's presence is intermingled with Lobsel Vith's. Perhaps also this is simply because the God in the incubation of Alessa grew stronger and grew to be strong enough to be of angelic status or on par with Valtiel. Whether she said it or not, I'm not sure if it's sufficient to say Incubus is Valtiel over saying Incubus is Lobsel Vith.

This means that we have some more description for Lobsel Vith now, he is the masculine to the feminine of Xuchilbara, and is responsible for planting the seed of God so to speak. Now, I would like to clarify before we move on I'm not suggesting that Alessa and Walter would literally have to do anything physically to parent God, but their special powers and the godly essences planted within them or by them would have to be combined in some probably ritualistic fashion. But look at what we can tell about Xuchibara, we can associate him (or maybe her rather) with rebirth, but yet no idea can really be associated with Lobsel Vith in terms of function, unless maybe we dig a little deeper?

Consider the following: Xuchilbara is probably a god carried over from the traditions of the Native Americans who originally inhabited the land of Silent Hill. Xuchilbara is a name which has Aztec roots, the Obsidian Goblet is reminiscent of Aztect ritual tools, and the White Chrism is too if we consider a claim sometimes debated by some, that White Chrism is made from White Claudia.

First of all consider that White Chrism is used in a religious ceremony carried over or inspired by a Native American religious ceremony, and Aztec shamans used a white plant called Morning Glory with similar psychoactive properties in their ceremonies. Second, consider the following line from the Crimson Ceremony: "Oh, proud fragrance of life which flies towards the heart. Oh, cup which brims with the whitest of wine, it is in thee that all begins.". The use of fragrance suggest something aromatic, much like a flower (fragrance furthermore is a word usually used describing perfumes or flowers in my experience). This seems to suggest the fragrance is coming from the cup if you take these lines as a whole, suggesting an fragrance from the White Chrism, which I posit is the floral aroma of White Claudia. I concede that this association of fragrance may be related to the association of Xuchilbara with flowers is also possible, but I posit to you that these are not mutually exclusive things, perhaps it has a thematic and literal sense, or Xuchilbara was associated with White Claudia by the Natives. Nonetheless, White Claudia is suggested to be used in making Aglaophotis, another liquid with supernatural associations in the SH series, in the Play Novel, so why not White Chrism as well? The function is simple to imagine, chrism being anointing oil, you dab on the body somewhere (like perhaps the head but it doesn't matter), and you're all ritually consecrated to meet your God, which is perhaps helped by the psychoactive properties (although this is not to say there are no gods without psychoactive drugs in SH, just that maybe it helps for rituals). Sorry for the long diversion, but with that cemented we can more firmly say that the Red God is associated with the Native beliefs, rebirth, and the feminine.

So perhaps if the Yellow God is Yin to Xuchi's yang, then instead of being associated with Native beliefs like Xuchibara, he is associated with the settler's beliefs? Well, this requires us to examine what traditions came with the settlers and were incorporated into the Order. I'll start with the obvious, the language of the Myths talking about Salvation and Angels, as well as the Angelic names, come from the Judeo-Christian tradition even if it means something somewhat different in context. Then, let us consider the other less obvious traditions that may have been carried over.

First, let's consider gyromancy. Now, this has been dismissed by some as just some crazy Dahlia babble, but here me out I think that we can learn something of use from this. I wish I could find the reference here in the right thread, but I remember whenever there was discussion about gyromancy someone mentioned it was something that was practiced by gypsies he knew (as well as mentioning it was really powerful and not to be messed with, his superstitions about it's powers aren't important but I'm hoping they'll ring a bell for someone). Well on top of that letters of the Hungarian letters are used in the Halo of the Sun, and so this at least supports Eastern European settlers, which could include gypsies. The inclusion of the tarot puzzle in SH:3 also seems to support this, as many used to believe that gypsies were the originators of tarot divination even though this has been disputed recently (if the writers/developers are including references to the Arbatel I wouldn't be surprised if they were reading texts talking about how the gypsies came from egypt and brought their sacred bible in the tarot cards, something not true but that was in these sorts of occult texts often). Therefore, I think this lends credence to the idea that Dahlia was a gypsy or the Order had absorbed gypsies and/or some of their practices. I only spend so long establishing this claim because it will help support me later.

So, we have gyromancy as something practiced by some or at least one of the members, particularly by a worshiper of Lobsel Vith. We also have the tarot card puzzle of SH:3, which while a puzzle still speaks to the occult knowledge of the order I think and/or some of their practices. Two is not a trend, but there is a connection: divination, or prophecy. Now, after this run with me on this idea, because I think there will be some strong credence given to this idea if we follow the train of thought, mainly that Lobsel Vith is associated with Prophecy, just as Xuchilbara is associated with rebirth. Now, despite being perhaps a weakly supported claim as of now, I posit that there are two more stronger proofs of it right in the Halo of the Sun that you never noticed.

I'll start with the less strong of the two. Now, I'm going be honest, my Halo of the Sun info is coming from the Silent Hill Wiki, so if anyone has the exact source of some of the info I'm using in the following claim, please let me know [Edit: I found the source it's from About the Cult's Symbol from SH:3]. Nonetheless, according to it the exterior ring represents charity, the interior ring represents resurrection, and the 3 rings in the center represent past, present, and future. Now, if this is the case then consider this a little more closely. Resurrection is analogous to rebirth, and so connotates Xuchilbara, while past, present, and future deal with time and can be connected to prophecy in that way. Finally, we can deal with information we don't need the wiki for, as it's common knowledge. On the outer edge of the halo we can see written in hungarian runic script "Alessa", "Dahlia", "Incubas", and "Alizer". So, we see across from Alessa is Incubas, which is basically the form Lobsel Vith took with Alessa, as an Incubus to her, and in the sense that incubas is Latin for "illegitimate possessor", which is what Lobsel Vith was to her body. So, what form did Lobsel Vith take for Dahlia? Well, it's been circulated on these forums that Alizer is an anagram of Raziel, and angel who was known as the Keeper of Secrets. He is said to have had all of the knowledge of God in a book and in folklore gave it to Adam and Eve after the fall. Thus as an angel he functioned as a bestower of knowledge, just as a God of Prophecy might to his devotees? Therefore, Alizer is Lobsel Vith.

In summation, I think that Lobsel Vith is a god of prophecy and divination, a god associated with the european and perhaps sometimes gypsy magical practices of the Order, and the masculine god meant to impregnate the womb for god. Xuchilbara is then the god of rebirth, a god associated with the Native Americans' magical practices used by the Order, and the femine god meant to be the womb for god. Also, Incubus is not Valtiel and White Chrism is made of White Claudia (I add the statements I know some may be irked by for fun). Feel free to tear me apart as I expect this to be obliterated by some of the very knowledgeable people here : )

EDIT: I just wanted to add a couple points to clarify. I think that it is very like that Valtiel and Metatron are interchangeable names in the beliefs of the Order, and so I don't really think that The Adversary's theory is really incorrect on the whole, just the latter half of it may not be totally correct. Secondly, I just wanted to note that if Incubus is Lobsel Vith, we get this nice pattern of Lobsel game, Xuchi game, Lobsel game, Xuchi game (Silent Hill 1,2,3, and 4 respectively). Perhaps there's a bit of pareidolia behind this train of thought but it's something to think about.

Now, addressing what The Adversary was actually saying, he was actually suggesting that the god can take the form of whatever your image of it is, and that is why Incubus in the first game looks like Lobsel Vith, where there is an image of him in the Chapel in SH:3 (I've scoured the threads via multiple searches and googled for some image of this a lot, but I don't think I've seen anything resembling Baphomet in the images and I don't have a copy of SH:3 so if anyone could provide the images I would be grateful. Now, many of the arguments for why Incubus might have the Virun VII Crest on him from my previous argument still help us understand more about the situation, but I think that the idea that the union of Lobsel Vith and Xuchilbara creates the God implies Alessa has Lobsel channeled into her and thus that was the god we fought (or at least we fought one particular form of it in Silent Hill 1) was Lobsel Vith, and that at the end of SH:4 the Conjurer, who is a version of Walter if I remember correctly, was basically caused by him creating the womb, i.e. Room 302, and developing part of himself in it. This transformed him into something more than human but less than God, and I think this is the result of Xuchilbara's essence mingling with his.

I'm sorry if I misrepresented your viewpoint, perhaps I misunderstood what you were saying. Allow me to quote from that previous thread, which maybe you changed your mind about, or maybe I misstated what I meant. The thread I'm quoting is here viewtopic.php?t=8962 , and the first two posts you made are what I'm quoting.

"Another thing to note is in Lost Memories: Silent Hill Chronicles in which it is mentioned, in some beliefs, Samael & Metatron "share the same existence"â€”as though they are one entity with two names; as though they are two sides of the same coin."

"The idea that the name Samael is relevant should further disprove that God is Samael. If the Seal of Metatron/Mark of Samael/Virun VII Crest is named after Valtiel's "true name," and that Incubus from Silent Hill 1 is God, then Samael/Metatron is clearly not God--because, after all: Metatron/Samael is Valtiel."

This implied to me that you were asserting that Metatron/Valtiel are equivalent terms, and that Metratron/Valtiel is also Samael/Incubus. I wasn't trying to claim you stated that Lobsel Vith is Incubus, my counter claim was merely that Incubus and Valtiel are not the same entity and rather that Incubus is Lobsel Vith, or a form or some extension thereof. Did I claim that you stated Lobsel Vith is Incubus in my previous post, perhaps I worded something wrong?

EDIT: Also, I hope it doesn't seem like I was attacking your point of view or something, I just figured your perspective on Incubus was one of the more well supported theories I've seen and so a serious contender worth addressing, though whether my idea on Incubus and Lobsel Vith holds up in the end is another. Also, you said that you suggested that Incubus looks like Lobsel Vith, but is not in fact Lobsel Vith, which I remember reading but kind find as of now. I'm making a stronger counterclaim, that Lobsel Vith was channeled partially or fully into Alessa, and that which was channeled into her is Incubus, and I just wanted to make that point very clear so that we can delineate the two perspectives so that further discussion can ensue, so if you can help me to correct any way I misrepresented your view that would be great, and I look forward to you perhaps clearing up any points I did not understand and perhaps offering some rebuttals to my claim with counter-evidence or showing some error in my reasoning or evidence in the near future. Truth be told you've posted some of my favorite theories and I really appreciate what you have to say about the world of Silent Hill so I'm very hyped you were my first response

>This implied to me that you were asserting that Metatron/Valtiel are equivalent terms, and that Metratron/Valtiel is also Samael/Incubus.<That quote of mine just means that Valtiel is, in essence, Samael, while Incubus is the form the god takes at that moment, not that Incubus is Valtielâ€”because Samael and god are wholly different entities to the Order's observers/practitioners.

Okay, I'll edit my post accordingly in a short bit, sorry for the misunderstanding. It'll take a bit as I'd like to then fully flesh out what I'm saying with regards to the birth of God, because I think I didn't communicate it properly in my first post. In short my view is that the gods 'birthed' in SH 1,3,&4 are not per say 'god', more or less because the incomplete version of God in those games is more like a corrupted (in the sense of not properly executed) channeling of only one of the gods (Xuchilbara or Lobsel Vith) into a vessel, while a "fully cooked" god is Immolation+Sacraments which leads to a Xuchi-Lobsel fusion or 'union' of sorts, which creates the God.

I'd like to note the similarity between this and Buddhism and Hinduism actually, where Vajrayana Buddhism and Tantra depict gods or buddhas in a Sexual union to represent the combination of masculine and feminine principles into a singular essence of enlightenment.