I am not sure if this particular question has been addressed in any of our other male/female discussions, so if it has I appologize and please lead me in the right direction.

In the churching of a child, I have seen the tradition of ONLY the male child being brought into the altar. A discussion arose recently where people indicated that both a female and male child should be brought into the altar.

I have been in a few parishes where both children were taken before the icon of Christ and the Icon of the Theotokos but no one went into the altar. I have been in more parishes in which the male infant is taken to the Altar and the female infant is taken to the icon of the Theotokos, I believe the latter is that tradition. The reason being a females are not currently allowed at the Altar per currentchurch practices and I believe the canons currently in place.

It's the same in my church. I believe the reasoning behind that is that men can/ will serve behind the iconostas at the alter, and that women serve outside of it. I could be wrong, but I've enver seen a female child presented to all four corners of the alter like a male child.

The actual practice will vary from priest to priest; as for the most canonical or traditional approach, the canons forbid laymen from entering the altar, so as the infants are not ordained the proper traditional approach would be to not take any infant into the altar, I've seen some priests do this as well.

I have been in a few parishes where both children were taken before the icon of Christ and the Icon of the Theotokos but no one went into the altar. I have been in more parishes in which the male infant is taken to the Altar and the female infant is taken to the icon of the Theotokos, I believe the latter is that tradition. The reason being a females are not currently allowed at the Altar per currentchurch practices and I believe the canons currently in place.

Thomas

Do you think the current practice would change even if we had an ecuminical council so to do?

I would think that an oecumenical synod, or even pan-orthodox synod, if one could ever be summoned, would probably have more significant items on the agenda. I am sure that this matter falls fairly low on the list of items that need addressed in they eyes of the hierarchy of the Church.

Women can be blessed to go behind the iconostasis for various reasons: nuns in a convent (they do the tidying up and cleaning - sometimes function as acolytes), the iconographer is a woman and others.

Nah, we prefer the grassroots approach to these issues. The constant force of cultural and social change is more reliable, albeit slower, than the whims of debate and rhetoric. It would be unwise for us to abandon our proven strategy to a roll of the dice of a synod meeting. Maybe in 150 years or so it would be good for a synod to rubberstamp our developments in gender issues, but most of us would prefer to win the battle before planning our Triumph. I think we have enough support to maintain a stalemate in a synod, or at least prevent the issues from comming to a vote, which is enough for now.

Now if this synod were simply to be attended by the ancient Churches, without Russian involvement, it may be prudent to push thet issue harder.

The practice of our former priest (OCA) was to place girl babies on the ambon. I haven't been to a baptism with our current priest so I don't know (Veniamin can you comment?). Boys went into the altar (or at least my first son did - former father forgot to take my second into the altar).

I see no point in changing practice - it's understandeable if an adult woman has a dispensation to enter the altar (for only very specific, good reasons), but baby girls do not have the same purpose, unless it's to give the child's family some warm fuzzies. Presence in the altar should be a reflection of one's service there - clergy, minor clergy, altar boys.

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On the spiritual path somewhere between the Simpsons and St. Theophan the Recluse, but I still can't see the Springfield city limits sign yet.

Nah, we prefer the grassroots approach to these issues. The constant force of cultural and social change is more reliable, albeit slower, than the whims of debate and rhetoric. It would be unwise for us to abandon our proven strategy to a roll of the dice of a synod meeting. Maybe in 150 years or so it would be good for a synod to rubberstamp our developments in gender issues, but most of us would prefer to win the battle before planning our Triumph. I think we have enough support to maintain a stalemate in a synod, or at least prevent the issues from comming to a vote, which is enough for now.

Now if this synod were simply to be attended by the ancient Churches, without Russian involvement, it may be prudent to push thet issue harder.

So what are you advocating? I'm not familiar with anyone's particular "agenda" around here, so I'm somewhat lost....

The reason being a females are not currently allowed at the Altar per currentchurch practices and I believe the canons currently in place.

Thomas

Ok, so what about women iconographers who go into the altar, or women who clean the altar?

Part of why i'm pushing./asking this question is because i'm trying to find the REASON for doing the act. Both within the rubrics, canons, praxis, etc.

GiC

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The actual practice will vary from priest to priest; as for the most canonical or traditional approach, the canons forbid laymen from entering the altar, so as the infants are not ordained the proper traditional approach would be to not take any infant into the altar, I've seen some priests do this as well.

Is that canon not one that says that the lay person must have a purpose to enter the altar? Or are they barred all together?

And since the the child is not ordained, would it be "theologically" or even "liturgically" more correct to not bring the child in at all, as you referenced this idea/point...?

The practice of our former priest (OCA) was to place girl babies on the ambon. I haven't been to a baptism with our current priest so I don't know (Veniamin can you comment?). Boys went into the altar (or at least my first son did - former father forgot to take my second into the altar).

*sigh* I just attended the one we had this last weekend and now I can't recall for certain. I don't recall whether Fr. Leo laid the girl down on the ambon as Fr. Dimitri would, or if he simply handed her back to the parents from there. Boys do still go into the altar, though.

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Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. ~Frederick the Great

If one looks closely at the rubrics for churching (which can be found in Hapgood, for instance) churching assumed the child was already baptized. Until rather recently, babies where batized within days, if not a few weeks, after birth. Baptism was done in the narthex or a special area for baptism and, once baptized, the child was brought into the church for "churching". If the baptism was done after 40 days, the mother was churched as well. (If you look at the prayers they are for both baby and mother).

In regards to going into the altar, older greek books don't have this rubric, others have it, but for baptized boys only.

Now, the common North American practice is to church both mother and baby after 40 days. In almost every situation, the baby has NOT been baptized and, if one were to follow the rubric exactly, SHOULD NOT be churched (only the mother would at this time - the baby would be churched after his/her baptism).

Having determined every priest who churches an unbaptized baby is already "wrong" he then may do one or more of the following: Bring the boy into the altar, but not the girl, bring both into the altar or simply bless them in front of the icons (and even put them on the ambo). Personally, I would not take either gender into the altar, but since we are doing it all wrong any ways, I don't think it is a big issue.

HAVING SAID ALL THAT - I do encourage the churching, even if we do it "incorrectly" as I do think it has a powerful meaning.

One final comment, in the Middle East (where babies are often not baptized for months or years after a child is born so the "right" relatives can be godparents) churching is unheard of. Probably, because the local priests follow the proper rubric.

*sigh* I just attended the one we had this last weekend and now I can't recall for certain. I don't recall whether Fr. Leo laid the girl down on the ambon as Fr. Dimitri would, or if he simply handed her back to the parents from there. Boys do still go into the altar, though.

What's the problem with posts not appearing? Mine that I quoted above isn't showing up in the thread normally?

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Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. ~Frederick the Great

Hm...interesting. That actually helps a lot. If you could find the reference that would be AMAZING. I will also delve into it and try to find things.

Thanks a lot!

'Let it not be permitted to anyone among all the laity to enter within the sacred altar, with the exception that the Imperial power and authority is in no way or manner excluded therefrom whenever it wishes to offer gifts to the Creator, in accordance with a certain most ancient tradition.' (VI 69)

There are several others that speak to various priestly functions being performed by the laity (reading, preaching, etc.), but this is the one that specifically references presence in the altar. So I guess the only canonical situation in which an infant could be brought into the altar would be if they were Πορφυρογέννητος, but the gender wouldn't matter.

If one looks closely at the rubrics for churching (which can be found in Hapgood, for instance) churching assumed the child was already baptized. Until rather recently, babies where batized within days, if not a few weeks, after birth. Baptism was done in the narthex or a special area for baptism and, once baptized, the child was brought into the church for "churching". If the baptism was done after 40 days, the mother was churched as well. (If you look at the prayers they are for both baby and mother).

Hm...which rubrics? I just checked the Evhologion To Mega and To Mikro Evhologion, and it has "what to do" for both baptized and unbaptized infants.

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In regards to going into the altar, older greek books don't have this rubric, others have it, but for baptized boys only.

Which books and how old. see my note above on this...

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Now, the common North American practice is to church both mother and baby after 40 days. In almost every situation, the baby has NOT been baptized and, if one were to follow the rubric exactly, SHOULD NOT be churched (only the mother would at this time - the baby would be churched after his/her baptism).

'Let it not be permitted to anyone among all the laity to enter within the sacred altar, with the exception that the Imperial power and authority is in no way or manner excluded therefrom whenever it wishes to offer gifts to the Creator, in accordance with a certain most ancient tradition.' (VI 69)

There are several others that speak to various priestly functions being performed by the laity (reading, preaching, etc.), but this is the one that specifically references presence in the altar. So I guess the only canonical situation in which an infant could be brought into the altar would be if they were Πορφυρογέννητος, but the gender wouldn't matter.

Ok, so what about the historical factor. Isn't this a period that the "Iconostas" as we know it did not exist. SO, the altar was a much more free ranging area? Someone mentioned this idea to me so I thought i'd ask.

Personally, I remember from Liturgics that there was always some kind of bar or barrier between the nave and the holy of holies....so...the idea of entering and exiting is much more fluid...right?

Also, the reference...how do I read that? 6th council, canon 69? or another way?

Ok, so what about the historical factor. Isn't this a period that the "Iconostas" as we know it did not exist. SO, the altar was a much more free ranging area? Someone mentioned this idea to me so I thought i'd ask.

Personally, I remember from Liturgics that there was always some kind of bar or barrier between the nave and the holy of holies....so...the idea of entering and exiting is much more fluid...right?

Also, the reference...how do I read that? 6th council, canon 69? or another way?

There was a barrier of some type long before this time, though I don't know how far the proper iconostasis had evolved by this point.

There was a barrier of some type long before this time, though I don't know how far the proper iconostasis had evolved by this point.

So, if there was some kind of barier, then is this argument plausible:

because the "altar" did not exist in the sense that we know it, the canon pertaining to who can and cannot enter the altar does not have the same conotiation today as it did then, and that the conotation then should be interplaced to today.

So, if there was some kind of barier, then is this argument plausible:

because the "altar" did not exist in the sense that we know it, the canon pertaining to who can and cannot enter the altar does not have the same conotiation today as it did then, and that the conotation then should be interplaced to today.

Let me know if that makes sense and what you think...

I fear I'm not quite following you, there was a barrier then and there is a barrier now (the Iconostasis), in both cases it was a designated area for the clergy (and Emperor) and the place where the Eucharist was consecrated, separate from the nave and the narthex. How exactly are you suggesting the connotation has changed?

Someone here, who I originally thought was wrong, but i'm now trying to at least give some credence to what they said, has said this:

In the ancient church there was no such thing as an Iconostas as we have it today, which I agree with. they also said that because of this the area known as the altar came out much further than it does today, and that because of this there was much more fluid movement. So when we say that a person did not enter the altar, they did not enter the area immediately AROUND the altar. This was reserved for the clergy. === This is what they said.

My thoughts on this are :

Firstly, there was still SOME kind of barier. I did not mention this idea to the person in question because their english is not that great and they were not even understanding me, so I just gave up.

Second, if there WAS some kind of barier, then what kind of movement happend, and where can we reference it, and...

Thirdly, in conjunction with the canon you referenced, how does that fit into the architectural design of the time of that council?

My references for my comments come not only from Hapgood, but from the Book of Needs published by St. Tikhon's (See Vol. 1, page 14)

"And if the infant be baptized, the priest performs the Churcing; but, if not, he does this after Baptism...."

Another quote, page 15 (by the way, I didn't get it exactly correct - my mistake). "The pattern for entering the Altar with the infant is not stated in the "Book of Needs" but it is taken from St. Simeon of Thessalonica". It continues saying only a baptized infant boy may go into the altar and around the Holy Table.

As regards to North American practice. I cannot speak of Serbs and ROCOR churches, but go into most OCA,Greek or Antiochian parishes and I will be you a shekel you will not find babies who are baptized before 40 days 9 out of 10 times (and this is when the churching of the mother takes place)

Another quote, page 15 (by the way, I didn't get it exactly correct - my mistake). "The pattern for entering the Altar with the infant is not stated in the "Book of Needs" but it is taken from St. Simeon of Thessalonica". It continues saying only a baptized infant boy may go into the altar and around the Holy Table.

Which text of St. Simeon? I've heard others reference him, but no one can give me a specific text.

In response to the original question, I had wondered the very same thing a couple of years ago. I asked the priest at my Greek Orthodox Church, and he explained to me that while the priest takes the (male) baby behind the altar, he is saying prayers that this baby boy enter a life of service to the church...in other words, that he could grow up to be a priest.

For that reason, he said it was unnecessary that the priest bring the baby girl behind the altar, because she will not grow up to become a priest.

In response to the original question, I had wondered the very same thing a couple of years ago. I asked the priest at my Greek Orthodox Church, and he explained to me that while the priest takes the (male) baby behind the altar, he is saying prayers that this baby boy enter a life of service to the church...in other words, that he could grow up to be a priest.

For that reason, he said it was unnecessary that the priest bring the baby girl behind the altar, because she will not grow up to become a priest.

That's what I heard anyway.

Brother;How about prayers for the baby girl to become nun,,,ask your priest about this ,......Also the Holy Orthodox Churches are bringing back the female Deacons from what i understand there ordained the same way as male deacons are .,,if thats not holy orders than what is ....stashko

It was a big discussion on the forum that we were booted from and Fr.Ambrose had alot to say about it...so thats why i brought it up, when some one mentioned only baby boys were taken in the altar hoping when they grew up ,that they might become priests,,so why not baby girls in hope that they become deacons .both are holy orders of ordination,, like the male deacons they are ordained inside the altar same ordination though there roles may be different......stashko

I've only witnessed ordinations to the diaconate before the "Royal Doors", not inside the sanctuary.

I witnessed a deacon being ordained some parts are in front of the Royal Doors,but once the Royal Doors are opened ,the ordaining Bishop is sitting on a chair in side the Holy Altar area the deacon is kneeling before the bishop as the bishop does the laying of the hands ....stashko

I've only witnessed ordinations to the diaconate before the "Royal Doors", not inside the sanctuary.

Fortunately, in my time both before and during Seminary, I've been able to witness over 10 ordinations to the diaconate in less than 6 years. I thought I'd provide the text, as found on goarch.org (also available in Greek, for those so inclined):

During the Liturgy, after the Hierarch has intoned "And may the mercies of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ be with you all," two Deacons exit, and bring the Subdeacon is before the Hierarch. They stand on the solea, facing the Hierarch who stands in the Beautiful Gate.

1st Deacon: Command

2nd Deacon: All command

1st Deacon: Command, Holy Master, the one who presents himself before you.

Bishop: In the name of the Father, the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen. (3)

The subdeacon addresses the bishop, then the bishop counsels the subdeacon. Afterwards, the subdeacon is brought into the sanctuary, and led by the deacons, circles the altar three times while the clergy sing:

Clergy: Hear us, you martyred Saints who have fought the good fight and received crowns, entreat the Lord, to have mercy on our souls.

O Isaiah dance with joy, for the Virgin is indeed with child and brought forth a son, Emmanuel. Who came both as God and man, Day-at-the-Dawn is his name, and by magnifying him, we call the Virgin blessed.

They bring the Candidate to the Hierarch at the front of the Altar. The Subdeacon kneels before the Altar placing his hands on the Altar and his head upon his hands. The Hierarch makes the sign of the Cross three times over his head. After the Deacon proclaims, "Let us be attentive!" the Hierarch places his hand on the head of the Subdeacon and recites the Prayer, "The Divine grace…”

Deacon: Let us be attentive.

Bishop: The divine grace, which always heals that which is infirm and completes that which is lacking, ordains the most devout Subdeacon (name) to the office of Deacon. Let us, therefore, pray for him, that the grace of the All-Holy Spirit may come upon him.

The clergy in the Holy of Holies say:

Clergy: Lord have mercy. Lord have mercy. Lord have mercy.

Deacon: Let us pray to the Lord.

Bishop: Lord our God, in Your providence You send your Holy Spirit upon those who are ordained by Your unsearchable power to become servants to minister Your Pure Mysteries, do You Lord, look upon this man whom You have consented to be ordained by me to the service of the Diaconate and preserve him in all humility, that he may hold the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience.

Grant to him the grace which You gave to Stephen, Your first martyr, whom You called first to the ministry of Your Diaconate. Make him worthy to please You as he serves You in the office which you, in your goodness, bestowed upon him. For those who minister well prepare themselves for good reward; and proclaim him Your perfect servant.

For Yours is the kingdom, the power, and the glory, of the Father, the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, now and always, and to the ages of ages.

Chanters: Amen.

The first deacon recites the following petitions in a low voice while the clergy in the Holy of Holies slowly respond "Lord, have mercy."

1st Deacon: In peace let us pray to the Lord.

For the peace from above and the salvation of our souls, let us pray to the Lord.For peace in the whole world, for the stability of the holy churches of God, and for the union of all, let us pray to the Lord.For our Archbishop (Name), and our Bishop (Name) for his priesthood, sustenance, sojourn, peace, health, salvation, and for the works of his hands, let us pray to the Lord.For the servant of God (Name of the new deacon), who has now been ordained a deacon, and for his salvation, let us pray to the Lord.That God who loves mankind will grant to him a pure and blameless diaconate, let us pray to the Lord.For this parish and this city, for every city and country, and for the faithful who live in them, let us pray to the Lord.For our deliverance from all tribulation, wrath, danger, and necessity, let us pray to the Lord.Help us, save us, have mercy on us, and protect us, O God, by Your grace.Commemorating our all-holy, pure, most-blessed, and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever-Virgin Mary, with all the saints, let us commit ourselves and one another and all our life to Christ our God.

Chanters: To You, O Lord.

Bishop: For to You belong all glory, honor, and worship, to the Father and to the Son and the Holy Spirit, now and always, and to the ages of ages.

Chanters: Amen.

While the 1st deacon intones the petitions, the bishop reads the following prayer with his hand still on the new deacon's head:

Bishop: O God our Savior, by your immortal voice You established the office of the diaconate through Your Apostles and showed forth the First martyr Stephen whom You elected first to fulfill the work of a deacon. It is written in your holy Gospel, "whoever would be first among you, let him be your servant." Lord of all fill this, Your servant, whom you have consented to enter the ministry of a deacon with the totality of faith, love, power, and sanctification by the descent of Your Holy and Life-giving Spirit. For not through the laying on of my hands, but by the divine visitation of your rich mercies grace is bestowed upon your worthy ones; that he, liberated from every sin, may stand blameless by You in the awesome Day of Judgment and receive the true reward of Your promise.

For You are our God, and to You we ascribe glory, together with the Father and the Holy Spirit, now and always, and to the ages of ages.

Chanters: Amen.

Everyone stands and the bishop proclaims the newly-ordained Deacon "Axios!" ("worthy") to which the congregation responds "Axios!"

The bishop will hold up each item of the deacon's vestments and again proclaim "Axios!" each time to which the congregation also responds "Axios!" and vests the new deacon.