Pages

"Some birds aren't meant to be caged, their feathers are just too bright"- Morgan Freeman, Shawshank Redemption. This blog is from one such bird who couldn't be caged by organizations who mandate scripted software testing. Pradeep Soundararajan welcomes you to this blog and wishes you a good time here and even otherwise.

The industry should wake up and accept the deficiencies in their Testers hiring skills. If the hiring trends are not changed, I can see a Lead hiring a Tester who is not as good as him ..., and that Tester further hiring another Tester who is still lesser skilled than him, and all in the name of maintaining Team's integrity. This would would end up in making that team non-productive.

I also feel that there is heavy insecurity within the Testing community(for eg. if one hires a better Tester than himself, then his own existence becomes miserable. So better build a team of average testers who would never complain of lack of challenges and who would never be a threat to his own existence.)

I found the presentation quite interesting. You have brought a lot of important points about interviews. I hope this one makes us all realize that we need to work on conducting better interviews for hiring better candidates.

You have highlighted the other side of it also quite well. When one is getting interviewed, he or she can actually drive the interview. One should learn to question the quality of the questions being asked.

I have been through a couple of such interviews and had a taste of how bad an interview can be conducted.

Oh! Go through the slides again. I let you know how the insecurity can go. It starts with _____?

The industry should wake up and accept the deficiencies in their Testers hiring skills. If the hiring trends are not changed, I can see a Lead hiring a Tester who is not as good as him ..., and that Tester further hiring another Tester who is still lesser skilled than him, and all in the name of maintaining Team's integrity. This would would end up in making that team non-productive.

I have been following your blog for a long period & I must say this post is as gr8 & fantastic as always.

If it has influenced you and helped you test better I'd be happy. Somethings that we read might feel great when we are reading but if it doesn't cause us to do something better, it remains a spark than a continuous flow of energy.

The things which you have given about candidates for interview is somewhere a replica of my own.But when I went through yours, Michael's & Cem's blog I got many ideas about framing my answers.

There are some other bloggers whom you could chose to be influenced.

An year back I didn't even knew about your blog but thanks to a very good friend of mine who introduced me to your blog.

Keep writing...Im really looking forward to the next posts.

Thanks to that good friend of yours. How many people call you good friend? ( In other words how many have you passed my blog link to? :P )

Hi Pradeep,after reading through the presentation my conclusion is that you can safely remove "software testing" and "India" from the title and make it generic.

It is a shame that most companies don't put a bit more effort in planing and conducting interviews. Even if you sit oposite to the CEO of a small company he, too, will go through a set of pre-defined guideline questions and seldomly deviate from it to get into an actual conversation with the candidate instead of a Q and A dialog.

I prefer if people go a bit into depth. A few weeks ago I found some interesting questions on Johanna Rothman's bloghttp://jrothman.com/blog/htp/2008/04/a-possibly-perfect-interview-question.html

after reading through the presentation my conclusion is that you can safely remove "software testing" and "India" from the title and make it generic.

I understand but I don't want to make it generic for the sole reason that I haven't been a part of.

In fact I have made it generic to India because I haven't heard or I don't think there is a phenomenally different kind of interview going on in other parts of India that I haven't been interviewed for the job as a tester.

It is a shame that most companies don't put a bit more effort in planing and conducting interviews. Even if you sit oposite to the CEO of a small company he, too, will go through a set of pre-defined guideline questions and seldomly deviate from it to get into an actual conversation with the candidate instead of a Q and A dialog.

Lets not generalize. Would you do that? Would I do that?

A few weeks ago I found some interesting questions on Johanna Rothman's blog

I missed a chance to meet Johanna Rothman and I am disappointed about that. I am hoping that I would get a chance this year or the next.

I have been inspired by Johanna's work and I missed that in the slides. There is one person whom I know and consider as an expert at interviewing technical candidates ( not just testers ) and that's Johanna.

She actively researches on the topic of interviewing and managing projects. It would be great to have her on Indian soil.

1. You know How many testers are recurtied in a good way.2. How many companies u hav worked with and how many interviews you have taken or seen.249 organizations in India ha haIn India we have more than 10,000 IT companies and you have not even attended 10% of interviewsSo all the top companies have rejected you, notbecause you are bad in technical but very bad in attitude :-) ( Ofcourse you are the best tester i am sure)ha ha attitude matters.If you are not selected then it never meant that interviewers are badIt seems a guy cant play his game properly told to others that i lost the same since the field is not proper.Excuses ha haYou promote and sale yourself in blog saying that so many are calling me to take interviewsSince you have written the topicit doesnt mean you are great.How knows the people rejected by you in future will say or write a blog" The (bad) state of Software Testing interviews in India"HA HA4. Even i have cleared 7 rounds in adobe and finally a guy asked for a puzzle which i could not answer and he told i am rejected because of that and the same puzzle was asked to him by his manager before 10 years ha ha i told him i will ask him a puzzle in back which i know how to solve but he could not, does this means he is bad in testing. But i will never say they are bad interviewers since they ask one question and analyse how i approach the same.In the companies i have attended the interviewers ( attended more than 20+ i will not lie like you saying ha ha 200+ ) asks scenarios based and experience based problems and they see how i solve it.You have 5 years of exp and attending 249 interviews in diff companies lets keep 1 day for 1 interview ha ha one year for interviews dont lie my small boy3.i think many people who have rejected you are dumb testers and only those who select you are intellgient.All the interviews ihave attended had good scenario based questions except few service based companies.3.Dont be overconfident and over show to world that only you are saving india's testers and remaining all are waste guys?4.You are telling certification is a waste and has a predefined questions and its has a wall for testers. Then why you did an engineering ? Why u attended the exams which has a similar way of exam structure.5. Wait for your answer thinking that u are good speaker who convience every one of what you think is correct , come on man learn from mistakes and never say IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII i dont like that u never learn from other good managers or testers in india.You want to appreciate few non indian testers Is this u get a chances to go abroad one day pleasing them.

I thought I'd not reply but then changed my mind for benefiting those who spend time on my blog ( which includes you )

1. You know How many testers are recurtied in a good way.

No one knows. You know?

2. How many companies u hav worked with and how many interviews you have taken or seen.249 organizations in India ha haIn India we have more than 10,000 IT companies and you have not even attended 10% of interviews

I mentioned in my post that I don't think there is something phenomenally different things that happen in the companies that I have not attended.

So all the top companies have rejected you, notbecause you are bad in technical but very bad in attitude :-) ( Ofcourse you are the best tester i am sure)ha ha attitude matters.

Would you hire a mason when you want to fill an opening for a tester?

So, does that mean the mason who attended the interview is not skilled?

3.i think many people who have rejected you are dumb testers and only those who select you are intellgient.All the interviews ihave attended had good scenario based questions except few service based companies.

You are having fun, for sure. The fun you are having me is in trying to show me that I am not good as what I project myself as in this blog.

Writing is in my control, perceiving is in your control. If perceiving that way makes you have fun at my blog, I don't want to stop you.

Have more fun because more such posts are on the way.

3.Dont be overconfident and over show to world that only you are saving india's testers and remaining all are waste guys?

Lets assume I do that. How does it harm you?

4.You are telling certification is a waste and has a predefined questions and its has a wall for testers. Then why you did an engineering ? Why u attended the exams which has a similar way of exam structure.

Before I say I hate the taste of apple, I better eat it at least once or more.

Learning is a process and if one's notion doesn't change for years, maybe he/she hasn't learned it.

I realized certification ( the way they are ) isn't helping a tester get any better and so I say whatever I say.

You promote and sale yourself in blog saying that so many are calling me to take interviews

Will you promote me?Will your father and mother promote me?

No!

Then I better do it.

You have 5 years of exp and attending 249 interviews in diff companies lets keep 1 day for 1 interview ha ha one year for interviews dont lie my small boy

I was jobless for more than one year over the past 6 years. What's wrong in that?

In the companies i have attended the interviewers ( attended more than 20+ i will not lie like you saying ha ha 200+ ) asks scenarios based and experience based problems and they see how i solve it.

They might have been impressed about your documentation skills for sure.

5. Wait for your answer thinking that u are good speaker who convience every one of what you think is correct , come on man learn from mistakes and never say IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII i dont like that u never learn from other good managers or testers in india.

You don't like and yet spend time on my blog. Why not spend time more usefully by not reading my blog and teaching other testers how to test.

You want to appreciate few non indian testers Is this u get a chances to go abroad one day pleasing them.

I am an invited speaker internationally and they invite me not for promoting them but for saying truth. If that's bitter then they want to listen to it.

Publish this comment.

You posted it as Anonymous. I had kept it idle to make you reveal who you are.

How about you writing a blog that helps Indian testers than like this blog that spoils them?

You could search posts here where I approve all comments irrespective of how bad they are against me and if I had fear, I wouldn't be writing a blog that is public.

If you can teach me something that can help me get better, do it over a blog or point me to forums you have written that demonstrate the better thought process.

There are people in India who hate Himesh Reshamiah and his music but does it stop him from doing it?

In RAMAYAN, the role played by "JATAYU - The bird which tried to save SITA when she was being kidnapped by RAVANA" was very minimal, but its significance can be felt.

Likewise, if we look at the comments posted by Anand (Though its inappropriate, does not really know how to put forth things..., -ve points, ect...etc) we as matured/want-to-learn individuals can for sure learn something from this.

So what I would like to say is WE always learn from every human being; which in turn makes us more educated (like how we handle such comments/people/suitation). We should always have the courage to take the –ve points and turn them into +ve ones.

Likewise, if we look at the comments posted by Anand (Though its inappropriate, does not really know how to put forth things..., -ve points, ect...etc) we as matured/want-to-learn individuals can for sure learn something from this.

So what I would like to say is WE always learn from every human being; which in turn makes us more educated (like how we handle such comments/people/suitation). We should always have the courage to take the –ve points and turn them into +ve ones.

It's a great comment. A book just says one thing but many different people reading it learn different things when they read it and a single individual learns different things on reading it again.

I lost my earlier comment on this thoughtful presentation. But anyways I would still like to quote from one of the article I read in the Hindustan Times last sunday. It was not related to testing but it throws light on the mindset of people. Its about decisions people make - Right Vs Popular and it had a comment that - minority has often been sacrificed for the interest of the majority, no matter how foolish or ignorant the majority and how far sighted and knowledgeable the minority.

Similarly the efforts on few people in Software Testing seems to be discarded/overlooked/misunderstood by many people - the majority in the industry.

But does it matter - NO. People like Anand can only make you stronger in your experience.

I saw comments from Anand and had some comments to make. I did not post the comments as it was a case of 1:1 discussion between Anand and Pradeep. Now that you have asked me to comment ... here is what I have to say...

First little about "Pradeep" I know...

1. Pradeep is one of the finest testers I have seen for in my association with testing community. I would not like to bring the number of years of exp here. Like Pradeep said, I am still a learner in this field.

2. When I first read Pradeep's blog few years ago.. It was a post about ISRO testers where he made a sweeping statement “99% of the engineers here do not want to join organizations like ISRO, DRDO and take up these challenges, All they want is to test some shit and they do not do that well finally.”http://testertested.blogspot.com/2006/07/are-you-good-tester-isro-needs.html

Pradeep, in this post, asked testers to join ISRO … which I believe (even now) is a personal statement out of enthusiasm. Since then my views of testing vs science/philosophy have changed so might be Pradeep’s.

I reacted in a very harsh manner to Pradeep. To my surprise, Pradeep took it as an opportunity to learn. He established contact with me and over a period of time, I have seen him improving leaps and bounds in his writing and testing skills. Those who say "Pradeep is unwilling to learn and accept his mistakes" - ask them to mail me or talk to me ... or look at his very initial blog post and current posts. Learning, improvement is clearly visible.

3. The fact that he is Satisfice India's first employee and endorsed by None other than James Bach - is sufficient to prove worth of Pradeep. Michael Bolton mentioned him along with Photo in EURO STAR conference presentation.In that presentation, Pradeep's photo figures along with likes of Jerry Weinberg, Cem Kaner, Michael Hunter, James Bach and whos who in testing. Pradeep is only one indian to make that list. Is it not sufficient for Pradeep's standing in global testing community?

3. Like some people, Pradeep, I believe in the initial years struggled to get into right job in IT/software. That gave him lots of experience in getting interviewed for various jobs. What he has expressed in this post are his experiences.

Now about the views expressed in the ppt,

1. The views expressed in the presentation are based on Pradeep’s personal experience of seeing, participating and getting best/worst experience of taking and attending interviews for software testing positions. If any reader has different experience, he can share that and discuss.2. Even in my personal experience (whatever little I have seen), I completely agree with views expressed by Pradeep. Anand may not agree - that is *his* problem.3. Some of the comments made by Anand (like “Pradeep is in fame syndrome”) are not called for. He seems to be settling some personal scores with Pradeep. I am not sure Anand can expose himself that badly in public – given the image he would like to project (36 years old Manager with 16 years experience in testing)4. If I read Anand’s overall comments I can say that he disagrees with Pradeep about state of testing interviews in India – Well, he can have that opinion of his and he could have made that point with grace – he did not. Sad5. Anand Seems to be talking on behalf all those managers that Pradeep is mentioning in the ppt – Not sure if he sees himself as one such manager – then it is natural for him to react that way.6. In some portions of ppt – Pradeep appear to promote/market himself – why not. It his blog, he can write whatever thinks appropriate; he need not have to take anyone’s permission to do that. It is left to the readers of the blog as how much such marketing/promoting is OK … Personally; I feel Pradeep is justified in this act.7. Anand Just feels that information presented by Pradeep like number of interviews he attended, types of questions he faced, his opinion of interviewers are FALSE. It is between Pradeep and Anand to settle on personal Level8. I don’t think Pradeep is acting or saying like the savior of all testers in India – the stuff he is writing seems to be motivating to some testers. That is good thing and we all interested in well being of the testing community should support him. For some, it may not motivate, those people should just stop reading his blog and look elsewhere.9. About Anand’s comments on Pradeep’s stand on software testing certifications – I encourage him to engage a conversation on that topic alone with people who have taken such stand on certifications – I am one among those.Anand – Write to me – shrinik@gmail.com

In nutshell – Anand appears to have chosen to act in totally inappropriate manner to Pradeep’s post. If Anand thinks that he is a good test manager with intentions to help testing community, he should first make himself visible in the testing community – may be by starting a blog on his own – completely express his identity – LinkedIn profile would do. I and Pradeep may be wrong in seeing Anand in that way ---

Anand – prove us wrong by your deeds not mere words … who are you (email ID), where are you, what do you do? What you have done so far to testing community … show your credentials – let the world know you and understand …

Its about decisions people make - Right Vs Popular and it had a comment that - minority has often been sacrificed for the interest of the majority, no matter how foolish or ignorant the majority and how far sighted and knowledgeable the minority.

Shrini wrote, I don’t think Pradeep is acting or saying like the savior of all testers in India – the stuff he is writing seems to be motivating to some testers. That is good thing and we all interested in well being of the testing community should support him. For some, it may not motivate, those people should just stop reading his blog and look elsewhere.

I don't write blogs to motivate people. I write them because I enjoy writing it and it helps me further if readers ask questions on my thought process through comments.

I think my blog has influenced a couple of testers and at their own risk :)

For those who don't like my blog they still come and read because they love getting irritated. I am disliked by bad testers and I like that thing about me.

Not all those who hate my blog are bad testers but maybe most of them.

I don't understand why people waste their time reading my blog when it is of no use to them.

I do understand it is of some use to them in talking bad about me.

I wish they better spend time doing and learning to test better than reading my blog.

Pradeep at his best again!!..defeinetly an eye opener.I have seen this happen always..I recall my Lead hire a candiate who clearly said he wanted to be a developer and yet convinced him to take the testing job ...the result he keeps sitting around frustated..!!

Testing is not only about having a sound domain knowledge it is about how passionate you are about your job..u cant excel unless u love what you are doing..

Can I pass this ppt to my Hiring dpt..guess they can learn a lot from this,

Difference between smoke and sanity testing?• The difference is spelling• On a scale of 1-10 where is your expertise in testing?• 4.6320123 – Those who ask this question usually don’t know what 5 or 6 means but they ask.• Why is automation testing better than manual testing?• What do you want to know?• How many test cases will you write for a given scenario?• Five billion sixty thousand three hundred and forty two point six test cases if I can be alive till then.• Let me know some bugs you found in your current assignment?• I am sorry, I have been bound by an NDA• Why did you not become an automation tester despite being in this field for X years?• Because I think that’s a brainy job and I am not capable to do it.• What would boundary conditions be for a system which takes 0 to 100?• My neighbor’s kid knows how to add plus one and subtract one from any given number.• Is automation testing better or manual testing better?• Not to think about such a question is better if you know what testing means.• What is the difference between bug/defect/error/?• In what context?• How much will the quality improve by your testing?• 0 percent if developers chose not to fix the thousands of bugs I find.

This one is beautiful Pradeep, I just loved it and the best is:

On a scale of 1-10 where is your expertise in testing?• 4.6320123 – Those who ask this

may be we can add some more digits for accuracy, this seems to be rounded off LOL :)

Something curious struck me... When I came to the slide about a candidate trying to solve the switchboard puzzle, when I read the heading, for some reason, I assumed that it is a "He". When I scrolled down to read the PPT, I realised that it was a "she" who solved the puzzle.

This taught me that it is a bad habit to jump to conclusions and make a decision on assumptions and presumptions....

Posts & Comments

Search this blog

Copyrights

Tester Tested! by Pradeep Soundararajan is licensed under Creative Commons. You must owe credits to Pradeep Soundararajan when you copy paste anything from here by mentioning the name and proper linking to the post. You are not allowed to edit any of the post without permission. For permissions, write to pradeep.srajan@gmail.com