Why would anyone think Hawkeye would even come within spitting distance of a court or legal proceeding, period? There's no need to convince a DA or jury of *anything*, because he's not going to be tried, or arrested, in the first place. Never mind that the analogies to drunk driving are utterly, laughably fallacious.

Put bluntly, if SHIELD is fine with employing Black Widow, who actually *was* a willing murderer for hire, they are not going to kick Hawkeye out for being mind controlled.

Why would anyone think Hawkeye would even come within spitting distance of a court or legal proceeding, period? There's no need to convince a DA or jury of *anything*, because he's not going to be tried, or arrested, in the first place. Never mind that the analogies to drunk driving are utterly, laughably fallacious.

Put bluntly, if SHIELD is fine with employing Black Widow, who actually *was* a willing murderer for hire, they are not going to kick Hawkeye out for being mind controlled.

Hawkeye's situation has nothing to do with Black Widow's at all. Widow is a Russian, possibly dating back to the Soviet era, spy. Intel agencies try to recruit the opposition all the time, it's part of the spy game. OTOH, having your own agent, in a moment of mental weakness, suddenly try to kill large numbers of your agency en masse does not speak well for that agent's future with the company.

*Edit: and who said anything about "drunk driving," anyway? Christ, you're a terrible reader. I was talking about people who commit homicide when they're not in complete control of their faculties. Going out and murdering a ****load of people while you're on a bender isn't the same thing as crashing your car into a tree because you had one too many at the pub.

Who's to say then that Black Widow's not a liability too since she could still easily be bought out by the opposition, whomever that may be. Hell, they might even play with that idea a bit in Winter Soldier. But regardless, the Director of SHIELD apparently trusts her enough to keep her on board despite her questionable background that was completely devoid of mind control.

Speaking of mind control...

I would hope that Fury recognizes the circumstances of Barton's sudden 'mental weakness'. Which in reality was nothing like getting drunk, and nothing like a lapse in good judgement. We are talking about a cosmic level device of alien origin that is capable of COMPLETELY ENSLAVING AN INDIVIDUAL TO THE USER'S WILL. Fury even saw the process with his very own eye. Legal systems probably won't recognize alien mind slave devices, but Fury's whole agenda in Avengers was to be prepared for such outlandish situations. And guess who's pulling the strings here?

Regardless of what the legal systems are like in our world our theirs' I highly doubt that Fury would let Barton go on trial for such a thing, even if the World Council themselves ordered it. Fury cuts corners to fit his sense of justice, not a sense of legal process. For goodness sake's he shot down one of his own planes because he disagreed with the plan.

So unless they cut out Fury's control or bastardize his character, we won't be seeing Barton on trial or imprisoned. It will be swept under the rug, much like many of SHIELD's operations. They are the epitome of shadow agency and I very much believe they can completely and will completely reprieve Barton of any perceived war crimes.

Who's to say then that Black Widow's not a liability too since she could still easily be bought out by the opposition, whomever that may be. Hell, they might even play with that idea a bit in Winter Soldier. But regardless, the Director of SHIELD apparently trusts her enough to keep her on board despite her questionable background that was completely devoid of mind control.

Speaking of mind control...

I would hope that Fury recognizes the circumstances of Barton's sudden 'mental weakness'. Which in reality was nothing like getting drunk, and nothing like a lapse in good judgement. We are talking about a cosmic level device of alien origin that is capable of COMPLETELY ENSLAVING AN INDIVIDUAL TO THE USER'S WILL. Fury even saw the process with his very own eye. Legal systems probably won't recognize alien mind slave devices, but Fury's whole agenda in Avengers was to be prepared for such outlandish situations. And guess who's pulling the strings here?

Regardless of what the legal systems are like in our world our theirs' I highly doubt that Fury would let Barton go on trial for such a thing, even if the World Council themselves ordered it. Fury cuts corners to fit his sense of justice, not a sense of legal process. For goodness sake's he shot down one of his own planes because he disagreed with the plan.

So unless they cut out Fury's control or bastardize his character, we won't be seeing Barton on trial or imprisoned. It will be swept under the rug, much like many of SHIELD's operations. They are the epitome of shadow agency and I very much believe they can completely and will completely reprieve Barton of any perceived war crimes.

Pretty sure that everything in the CATWS trailer and set pics indicate that Fury loses a LOT of control in that movie. It's pretty evident that the main thrust of the story there involves a massive shakeup in SHIELD's power structure, with Fury being literally under the gun, and it probably directly relates to his "insubordination" during The Battle of New York.

In any event, I'm just trying to come up with a simple, logical excuse for Hawkeye's complete absence in the Phase II movies (every other Avenger, and practically every other major character from that movie, rates at least a cameo in a Phase II movie, but not Hawkeye....?), and an excuse that provides for a pretty cinematic reintroduction to Clint in Avengers 2, featuring the Avengers leading a jailbreak to bust him out for a shot at redemption.

What would *you* guys prefer? That they just say, "oh, he's been off on a mission somewhere" and leave it all offscreen? That's sweeping Hawkeye under the rug. That's lazy writing. And that's boring as hell.

Well my preference would be that he's on voluntary leave, with the decision to reprieve him being made well before the shakeup of SHIELD's power structure. He's just hesitant to pick up the bow again and fight because of the guilt of physically killing his comrades while being mentally violated. He could play the wild card in AOU. His sudden re-introduction could be the thing that even tips the tables back in the team's favor during a crucial battle, and his explosive re-entry into service of the greater good could symbolize his acceptance of having had his free will taken. And we see this personal dilemma through the cracks of the primary action. Whedon did say that Hawkeye's role will be substantially improved this time around right?

Don't get me wrong though, a prison break sequence does sound awesome, and would definitely establish that the Avengers aren't quite affiliated with SHIELD anymore. But at the end of the day, the idea that Fury would allow Barton to be punished for such a thing is completely absurd to me. That is unless Smulder's isn't exaggerating when she says that Winter Soldier picks up right after the Avengers, and the power shakeup is literally the first act. Then I could accept that Fury let's Barton be incarcerated for such a clear case of being enslaved to the bad guy.

Yes, dear. We, as an audience, know exactly what happened, and that it's not Hawkeye's fault. In the filmic world, Hawkeye and his lawyers would have one HELL of a hard time convincing a judge and/or jury to swallow such an argument. The DA would demand proof of these phantasmagorical claims of magic and mind control, and would get none. Yes, Loki's a god, yadda yadda, yes, the Cube yadda yadda. None of those powers have been defined or proven or understood in a court of law, or by science, or by laypeople. The DA could easily ask Hawkeye and Selvig why Nick Fury wasn't possessed, nor any of the rest of the SHIELD agents inside the JDEM lab, nor any of the Avengers.

The burden of proof would be on Hawkeye to show that he wasn't in control of his faculties, and the only ball in his legal court is Selvig, who is now madder than a hatter, and whose evidence and testimony would be thrown out as wholly inadmissible.

This is not a feasible scenario. No court tries people when the basic facts of the situation is too classified for the jury to hear. Plus, after everyone knows aliens exist and have incredible capabilities, the ability to judge their ability to do mind control is far out of any civilian's skillset. Hawkeye, even if SHIELD made no intervention whatsoever, would be tried by military court. If he was following orders to the best of his ability, which he was, then he would be fully acquitted. If the prosecutors could prove that it was a war, which it was, he would be acquitted. Unless he showed significant mental instability, he'd be free to go. The only way he'd do jail time is if SHIELD intentionally made sure that he did, which, if his fate is decided after Redford takes over, could possibly happen.

I personally would prefer a self imposed exile due to his guilt and frustration. If he had become a criminal in the depths of his depression and self loathing, that could be interesting as well.

This is not a feasible scenario. No court tries people when the basic facts of the situation is too classified for the jury to hear. Plus, after everyone knows aliens exist and have incredible capabilities, the ability to judge their ability to do mind control is far out of any civilian's skillset. Hawkeye, even if SHIELD made no intervention whatsoever, would be tried by military court. If he was following orders to the best of his ability, which he was, then he would be fully acquitted. If the prosecutors could prove that it was a war, which it was, he would be acquitted. Unless he showed significant mental instability, he'd be free to go. The only way he'd do jail time is if SHIELD intentionally made sure that he did, which, if his fate is decided after Redford takes over, could possibly happen.

I personally would prefer a self imposed exile due to his guilt and frustration. If he had become a criminal in the depths of his depression and self loathing, that could be interesting as well.

I do like that idea. Clint dabbled in the wrong side of the law on more than one occasion, and for a long time, headed up the T-bolts, a team of (alleged) reformed villains. If he shows up in AOU on the "wrong side," at least temporarily --- alongside, say, the Maximoff sibs --- it'd be fine with me.

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Originally Posted by metaphysician

It still strikes me as largely a "house that jack built" justification for the a priori goal of "Hawkeye not being part of SHIELD."

And that's just it....Hawkeye *doesn't* need to be part of SHIELD anymore. None of them do. After CATWS, I'll bet five million Internet dollars that Steve Rogers and Natasha Romanoff won't be, either.

If they planning on doing a Hulk film for Phase III I think Hawkeye could be a fun addition to the story. Basically SHIELD just has Clint accompany Banner has some politicians still not used to the idea of Hulk being a hero.

I don't think Marvel going to dive into World War Hulk just yet, and having Hulk play off another hero might just help make it a little more fun.

I find it a terribly overdone cliche that heroes can only be heroic when they are somehow enemies of authority. The Avengers don't need to be a part of SHIELD or controlled by SHIELD. . . but that doesn't mean they should be enemies, either. Nor does it mean there shouldn't be any overlap between members of one and members of the other.

We see in the film that Selvig has been driven mad as a result of Loki’s mind control. Can we expect to see Clint Barton going through the same thing the next time we see Hawkeye?

Well, I think we saw that in The Avengers already. We saw the scene where he is with Widow, and he’s coming out of that, and he’s dealing with the repercussions of that. That was sort of it for Hawkeye. Selvig was held in that Loki trance a little bit longer and only popped out at the very, very end, so I think his repercussions [are more significant]. And also, Hawkeye is a field operative of SHIELD. Selvig is a university professor. [Laughs] So they deal with it in different ways.

Selvig was no longer needed once the tesseract left earth. So he just went back to what he was always doing and probably is called into consult when needed.

Now Banner showed up in IM3 just because Ruffalo was in the vicinity at the time. It's not like CATWS where Widow actually a costar.

Now Selvig went went nuts because his mind found it difficult to deal with the calculations. We kinda see his insanity already when he is freed. Given how Hawkeye is fine afterwards, I assume his mental facilities are fine. Though keep in mind that he did kill innocent people so he may not remain with shield over guilt.

Feige has spoken. That settles it. Close the thread. And for God's sake, no more bizarre fantasies about Hawkeye going on trial for acts committed while under Loki's control, because that was never going to happen.

Hawkeye's situation has nothing to do with Black Widow's at all. Widow is a Russian, possibly dating back to the Soviet era, spy. Intel agencies try to recruit the opposition all the time, it's part of the spy game. OTOH, having your own agent, in a moment of mental weakness, suddenly try to kill large numbers of your agency en masse does not speak well for that agent's future with the company.

*Edit: and who said anything about "drunk driving," anyway? Christ, you're a terrible reader. I was talking about people who commit homicide when they're not in complete control of their faculties. Going out and murdering a ****load of people while you're on a bender isn't the same thing as crashing your car into a tree because you had one too many at the pub.

Except that none of those examples fit her whatsoever. Getting drunk is a choice, and so you are liable for the consequences since you put yourself in that situation willingly. Hawkeye didn't choose to be mind-controlled by a god wielding a cosmic rod of power. It's not even remotely close to being even vaguely comparable, sorry.

Pretty sure that everything in the CATWS trailer and set pics indicate that Fury loses a LOT of control in that movie. It's pretty evident that the main thrust of the story there involves a massive shakeup in SHIELD's power structure, with Fury being literally under the gun, and it probably directly relates to his "insubordination" during The Battle of New York.

In any event, I'm just trying to come up with a simple, logical excuse for Hawkeye's complete absence in the Phase II movies (every other Avenger, and practically every other major character from that movie, rates at least a cameo in a Phase II movie, but not Hawkeye....?), and an excuse that provides for a pretty cinematic reintroduction to Clint in Avengers 2, featuring the Avengers leading a jailbreak to bust him out for a shot at redemption.

What would *you* guys prefer? That they just say, "oh, he's been off on a mission somewhere" and leave it all offscreen? That's sweeping Hawkeye under the rug. That's lazy writing. And that's boring as hell.

Him being off on a mission still makes more sense them some bullcrap trial scenario. I'd rather the writing be lazy than it be stupid and nonsensical.

Yep. Sure has. In fact, he goes right on to say "Selvig is a university professor. [Laughs]"

(Pseudo-)spoiler alert: Selvig is *not* still a university professor in TDW. He's in the nut hatch. So Feige is talking about their status in The Avengers, and how their occupations prepare them to deal with the mindrape trauma in different ways. He's not talking about their status *post*-Avengers.

Quote:

That settles it. Close the thread. And for God's sake, no more bizarre fantasies about Hawkeye going on trial for acts committed while under Loki's control, because that was never going to happen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loki882

Him being off on a mission still makes more sense them some bullcrap trial scenario. I'd rather the writing be lazy than it be stupid and nonsensical.

Another thing: I'm sick to death of watching you guys get off on these crass insults to people's (mainly mine, but plenty of others as well) theories as "stupid," "nonsensical," "bizarre," and fill in any number of synonyms that belittle the poster's intelligence or mental capacity. All I'm offering is theories; you can feel free to disagree all you want, but try it in a civil manner.

Don't get me wrong; my skin is thick. Thicker than anybody else's here, I'll wager, because it comes with the territory where I work and where I'm from. But this isn't 4chan, so I'm not free to tell you haters what I *really* want to say, or to let the flames fly freely. (Yay for alliteration.) But I *am* tired of being forced to dance on eggshells with what I am allowed to say around here while you people get away with tripe like this on a regular basis.

It ends now. From now on, I'm playing fast and loose and hard with the Report button. You can't debate things without resorting to childish insults, then consider yourself reported from here on out. I'm done with it.

Nothing about TWS prevents heroes from being SHIELD agents. Unless, of course, you think Cap is going to *fail* to save the day and stop the villains.

So if you were Hawkeye and your close friends had been royally screwed over by the organisation you work for, and/or you discover that said organisation has been infiltrated by that little terrorist group called HYDRA, you would still want to work for that organisation?

__________________Twitter: @Jasper_CH

I still believe in heroes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by terry78

"I tell ya, that Jennifer Lawrenshinch, I'd like to put my olive in her martini."

So if you were Hawkeye and your close friends had been royally screwed over by the organisation you work for, and/or you discover that said organisation has been infiltrated by that little terrorist group called HYDRA, you would still want to work for that organisation?

Let me turn that around:

So you find out the organization you've dedicated years of your life to serving, in order to protect humanity, has been infiltrated by Hydra, you. . . abandon it, rather than fight to clean it out?