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prendrefeu wrote:Please don't lop all the 'doubters' in with the 'haters'. Geez I dislike that term... it's sooo... childish. Anyway: I don't hate him, I just don't trust Sky.

The problem here is you have no reason not to trust them other than personal prejudice based on being let down by an American.

There is more than enough information, transparency and data out there to enable you to let the personal hangups go and to enjoy the sport again. You just don't want to.

There's a whole generation of people who were foolish enough to be taken in once and who are now being overly protective of their emotions. That does not make them right.

I think you're being a bit narrow minded to think its just one American that leaves the fans feeling pessimistic, isn't this just a normal human reaction?...the late 80's onwards have been a disappointment with regard to what we know now with EPO, from Indurain, Bugno, Chiappuci...PDM in the 90's to Riis, Ullrich, Pantani...Festina, T Mobile...etc etc etc

I for one hope Wiggins and Froome are clean but won't feel comfortable for several years to come...

520 Dan wrote:Did he? he got the jump on both Greipel and Cav, but they both closed on him. Perfectly timed yes but had that been 10m longer we would have had a different outcome

You could say that about most sprints.

Fact is, number 1 wheel over the line was Kittel. So he did it best.

Agreed, the old 'if the finish line was somewhere else' point is the most useless thing that can be said about any race.

Kittel and Argos did it brilliantly. They mugged Omega-Pharma through the left-right, Greipel had no answer to Kittel's first acceleration and neither he nor Cav started to close on Kittel until victory was guaranteed. Perfect sprinting.

Cavendish won't take this much competition lying down though, and I think we'll see a new improved version next season - I also think we might see some more classic style Tour routes in the next few years - more pan flat days with wide straight finishes, fewer rolling stages, half a chance for the pure fast guys to compete with Sagan for green.

OPQS baffled me yesterday. They have been consistently the No. 3 sprint setup this Tour, yet they set the pace on the front for the entire stage save for the Sky parade lap. Argos put 1 guy up there as a token, and Lotto had none all day. And yet again, as it has been in most of the sprints this Tour, OPQS ran out of men way too early. They should have let the other teams control the race and sent Der Panzer to the front the last time up the Rivoli, Trentin around the Concorde, leaving Steegmans to lead out Cav.

Tinea Pedis wrote:That's right, one more rider with zero form is precisely what would have saved the Tour for them...

Sounds like he would have fit in just fine with the rest of the team. BMC blew a big bunch of nothing at the Tour. Didn't even show up and should just skip next year's if they are going to have the same outing. One of the biggest disappointments.

Tinea Pedis wrote:For a lot of people (and I don't think this is a massive generalisation), the Tour really 'started' with Armstrong.

Doped or not, I cannot deny his impact on truly globalising the sport.

? WTF. Maybe for the massively uninformed, fairweather fan and those who just jumped on the bandwagon. Sure. But those of us on here discussing this don't fall into that group. The Tour for many of us (me) started as a kid back in the 80's remembering guys like Hinault, Fignon, LeMond, Roche, Indurain....etc.

airwise wrote:There's a whole generation of people who were foolish enough to be taken in once and who are now being overly protective of their emotions. That does not make them right.

What a rubbish statement. Taken in once? Are you serious? There was only one person who has taken in cycling fans with doping?

Tinea Pedis wrote:For a lot of people (and I don't think this is a massive generalisation), the Tour really 'started' with Armstrong.

Doped or not, I cannot deny his impact on truly globalising the sport.

.. then, that's really sad for them.

Generally speaking, I really like the debate here. It's augmented. And not limited to these awful national generalisations (the Germans, the French, the Spanish, the Brits, ....) that you can read in most news comments.

OPQS baffled me yesterday. They have been consistently the No. 3 sprint setup this Tour, yet they set the pace on the front for the entire stage save for the Sky parade lap. Argos put 1 guy up there as a token, and Lotto had none all day. And yet again, as it has been in most of the sprints this Tour, OPQS ran out of men way too early. They should have let the other teams control the race and sent Der Panzer to the front the last time up the Rivoli, Trentin around the Concorde, leaving Steegmans to lead out Cav.

I thought OPQS had it in the bag, but no sooner had Steegmans come through then he peeled off Cav had to basically come from too far back on the bend. He's second kick was impressive but a little too late; pot hole probably didn't help but that's neither here nor there.Interested to see that when he punctured 50km to go he had very little support dragging him back up to the peloton; that effort could have hurt.Good to have Renshaw back with him next year and could Bernie be coming over too? Contract expires this year and he was annoyed he did not make the Sky team this year.However, what will be interesting is to see how OPQS manage both Uran (potentially signing) and Cavs tour expectations.

WillR wrote:I thought OPQS had it in the bag, but no sooner had Steegmans come through then he peeled off

steegmans didn't so much pull off, but cav recognized what was happening and got onto griepels wheel because lotto and argos train were motoring way beyond steegmans. Steegmans would just have put cavendish another bike length behind.

pretty much argos just understood and probably watched the last 4 years of cav winning to know they needed to be 1st and 2nd into the last turn. Guys are so fast these days (and trains) that in the last 250m-300m, unless you are a peasant, you can kinda hold onto the win, even if you nose is out front and in the wind.

I dunno if OPQS were pulling based on effort or based on the 'distance' to the line, but once trentin hit the front, lotto and argos really came to the front quick. Trentin's pull seemed short and the cannondale dude didn't help. Sadly when i saw cav 5th wheel, i was like this is looking grim. Even the moto videographer had faith as he was fixated on cav , he didn't even show kittel up front!

i still have this image of wiggin's leading out EVB last year..... taking it up at like 1100m to go, and taking the peloton DEEP. Seated pursuit power, putting two orica trains in the danger zone.... that was seriously the dopest. He took like a 20-30second pull. edit: in rewatching my iphone video of the finish, wiggins took a 32 second pull.

Amongst all of the issues going on with BMC during TdF, it was clear that they really missed George Hincapie - he was very important in keeping the team working together for Cadel, and he had the experience and presence to lead the team in support of Cadel.

Tinea, I'm not sure what your point is. Sure, lots of people are only mildly interested in cycling, and their interest has waxed and waned with LA's rise and fall.But airwise commented about the forum regulars who persist in doubting Sky. He thinks that there is plenty of evidence that the pros are clean, and that people who doubt that are "overly protective of their emotions", ie irrational. That's where (reasonably rational) people can disagree. Pro cycling has thoroughly earned the distrust of many spectators over many years. Being somewhat skeptical seems very rational (to me), especially as long as the circus is run by the same people, with the same governance, as before.