btw, Noah I know you're not able to respond right now but for reference any ought statement purported in the Bible by God is the objective morality all humans ought to follow.

Is what I believe

PoxToday at 6:18 PM

For a long time I used to be a dead hard devoted communist. I would switch my opinions rapidly between Marxism, to Leninism, to Maoism, and finally ending it all at Juche. I then decided that I hated communism and the people who support it. I became a centrist, and developed a more center-right conservative stance. I wish to keep American values and things alike (though, my opinion changes depending on what kind of value means what.) I am heavily nationalistic to my heritage (German) but I don't know much about the modern German political standpoints.

I myself don't get into to much digging around in politics but I do like to get a sense of what things mean.

󠇰 iceyToday at 6:19 PM

nice

PoxToday at 6:19 PM

And yourself?

󠇰 iceyToday at 6:19 PM

i am a socialist comrade

PoxToday at 6:20 PM

Oh

Neato

I respect everyone's opinion and all, but I can not bare to stand people like Anti-Fa, or people alike.

Like fascists

KnowItAll_NoahToday at 6:20 PM

I’m anitcom

PoxToday at 6:21 PM

I can't stand radicals

󠇰 iceyToday at 6:21 PM

noah you must first embrace yourself into communist ideas to fully understand it

i will guide you to communism dont worry

KnowItAll_NoahToday at 6:22 PM

I once beat up a kid for not saying the pledge(people that aren’t legal US citizens are exempt from my judgement). Does that make me a radical?

PoxToday at 6:22 PM

Yeah, I kind of have to agree with what you said @󠇰 icey. You have to understand before you have an opinion.

KnowItAll_NoahToday at 6:22 PM

Reeeeeee

Fuck communism

PoxToday at 6:22 PM

Partly?

󠇰 iceyToday at 6:22 PM

well he has the right not to say the pledge and you dont have the right to beat him up

KnowItAll_NoahToday at 6:22 PM

Like I give a shit

󠇰 iceyToday at 6:22 PM

you're not a radical in beliefs but the way you carry yours out in

PoxToday at 6:23 PM

^

󠇰 iceyToday at 6:24 PM

what is wrong with communism @KnowItAll_Noah

KnowItAll_NoahToday at 6:25 PM

It’s not capitalism

󠇰 iceyToday at 6:25 PM

but what is wrong with it

KnowItAll_NoahToday at 6:25 PM

I just told you

󠇰 iceyToday at 6:25 PM

what is good about capitalism

KnowItAll_NoahToday at 6:26 PM

Everything

󠇰 iceyToday at 6:27 PM

can you name some

---------------------------------------

STAGE 2

󠇰 iceyToday at 6:33 PM

so like we can agree communism is better than capitalism in theory?

PoxToday at 6:33 PM

Okay. I can agree with you that communism has superior ideas than capitalism, but only in theory.

󠇰 iceyToday at 6:34 PM

so like where would it fail

PoxToday at 6:35 PM

Mmm... well, it has typically always fallen due to human error. Practically every attempt has been failed because of a dictatorship that resulted in error.

If I may ask, what would you do to achieve communism if you had all the resources and tools to create your country?

And I'm not saying that it can't be done through a dictatorship, or one great leader, but it always ends up because of greed or something similar.

󠇰 iceyToday at 6:37 PM

well you would create communes of around 150 people as that is scientifically proven to be best for communities, create housing, schools, automated production, and basic needs accessible

PoxToday at 6:37 PM

Alright. How would you create these needs such as housing, etc?

󠇰 iceyToday at 6:37 PM

workers

PoxToday at 6:37 PM

Alright, sorry, I made an error myself.

I said if you had all the resources and tools to create it.

I was still in theory.

In theory everything works.

󠇰 iceyToday at 6:38 PM

lol

PoxToday at 6:38 PM

Let's talk about actual 2019 - whenever

Or before

If you want

󠇰 iceyToday at 6:38 PM

okay let me point something out

so when things are collectivized, like resources needed to construct, food to eat, tools to work it is much more effective than when an individual has a concentrated amount

PoxToday at 6:40 PM

What do you mean by the last part?

󠇰 iceyToday at 6:40 PM

so like if you are on your own and you want to make a building, but all you have is cement and no tools to lay the cement with

its less effective than if you are apart of a community that shares the tools and cement

PoxToday at 6:40 PM

Well yes.

󠇰 iceyToday at 6:41 PM

so i say this to make clear that its not hard to provide housing, water, food for everyone

when its collectivized

PoxToday at 6:42 PM

brb

Back, sorry.

Anyways, collectivization makes sense when used in this sense, but I still have a strong feeling for individualism because of what has happened through history.

It's all just a big battle over theory vs history/reality.

󠇰 iceyToday at 6:45 PM

when hasnt it worked in history

PoxToday at 6:45 PM

Because there will always be someone who will share their tools and resources, and someone who says no and wants to build something of their own.

@KnowItAll_Noah Your turn!

KnowItAll_NoahToday at 6:46 PM

I don’t feel like it

PoxToday at 6:46 PM

Well, it has in a way

󠇰 iceyToday at 6:46 PM

noah doesnt know how to debate you might wanna continue

PoxToday at 6:47 PM

Millions have died over it, but there is always a point where they do stabilize it. Like how the Soviets finally stabilized food production after killing millions of Ukrainians.

Because of the food being transported to Moscow and not being distributed enough

Tr33ckoToday at 6:48 PM

@󠇰 icey communes are fine. However, they shouldnt be enforced by the state

󠇰 iceyToday at 6:48 PM

the soviet union had many flaws but food was not an issue

PoxToday at 6:48 PM

Exactly.

Nothing should be enforced by the state

󠇰 iceyToday at 6:48 PM

they wont be enforced

PoxToday at 6:48 PM

That's why everything looks like shit in communist practice

Tr33ckoToday at 6:48 PM

In fact, I'm a big fan of communes and living together. I just think the government should get its greasy fingers off of the economy

PoxToday at 6:48 PM

It's even against the whole theory of Marxism

No government

stateless

classless

Tr33ckoToday at 6:49 PM

Yes, but then governments will form

We need some semblance of a government

Or else we'll devolve (evolve in this case) into feudalism over time

PoxToday at 6:50 PM

I think the only way a partially stateless society would be under Trotskyism and have the entire world unite, but even then you would need to have local governments of some sort to communicate with other "sectors" of the world.

Which is highly unlikely to ever occur

even in theory

Tr33ckoToday at 6:51 PM

A small government would be good. Less taxes means more money to spend for you. Plus, a lot of government spending is spent on oversight and administration

PoxToday at 6:52 PM

I think government spending would be good depending on what they were spending it on.

Tr33ckoToday at 6:52 PM

Well, of course its good sometimes

You cant have a government without spending

󠇰 iceyToday at 6:52 PM

government needs money to regulate

Tr33ckoToday at 6:53 PM

See, theres that word i dont like very much

"Regulate"

󠇰 iceyToday at 6:53 PM

like environment

PoxToday at 6:53 PM

Like in the current world. I do not agree with the U.S. government using tax payer dollars to fund healthcare programs or other government programs. (Under Sanders)

󠇰 iceyToday at 6:53 PM

co2 emissions and ocean pollution

PoxToday at 6:53 PM

brb

Tr33ckoToday at 6:54 PM

So, you wish for the government to regulate to save the environment?

PoxToday at 6:54 PM

back

󠇰 iceyToday at 6:54 PM

yes

Tr33ckoToday at 6:54 PM

Admirable, but how?

(Welcome back, pox)

󠇰 iceyToday at 6:54 PM

pollution standards and such

Tr33ckoToday at 6:55 PM

I mean, I cant say I'm against regulating pollution. Since pollution, in every form, damages others and their property, its a violation of the non-aggression principle

󠇰 iceyToday at 6:55 PM

^

exactly what i believe

Tr33ckoToday at 6:56 PM

libertarian environmentalism: your smoke is on my property

󠇰 iceyToday at 6:56 PM

private property just restricts freedom lol

Tr33ckoToday at 6:57 PM

Not really

Letting others interfere with what is yours is restricting freedom

󠇰 iceyToday at 6:57 PM

its private therefore restricting access to others

Tr33ckoToday at 6:57 PM

So?

󠇰 iceyToday at 6:57 PM

but why is it yours?

Tr33ckoToday at 6:57 PM

Your rights end where others begin

Your right to enter my property ends where my right to hold it begins

Well, in theory it should

󠇰 iceyToday at 6:58 PM

'right to hold it'

the only thing that means is the right to not have others come in

Tr33ckoToday at 6:59 PM

You act like everyone is going to close off their land and become permits, and you act like parks and roads, non-private land, dont exist

PoxToday at 6:59 PM

That's another thing I enjoy, private property.

󠇰 iceyToday at 7:00 PM

61% of america is private property

Tr33ckoToday at 7:00 PM

Yup

PoxToday at 7:00 PM

It would be 100% if we had no government.

There would be claims, and people to defend those claims.

󠇰 iceyToday at 7:00 PM

parks and roads exactly. an example of collectivized properties working

Rosemary BlackshieldToday at 7:00 PM

PoxToday at 7:00 PM

God damnit

Tr33ckoToday at 7:00 PM

Anarchy always results in the reformation of govt

󠇰 iceyToday at 7:00 PM

im not saying you dont have the right for people not to walk into your home

who is talking about anarchy

Tr33ckoToday at 7:01 PM

You

When you say "stateless"

󠇰 iceyToday at 7:01 PM

when

Tr33ckoToday at 7:01 PM

Bruh

PoxToday at 7:01 PM

Are you talking about me? I mentioned stateless a few times.

󠇰 iceyToday at 7:02 PM

almost everything should be owned by the collective population

except personal property

PoxToday at 7:02 PM

How far do you go with personal property?

󠇰 iceyToday at 7:02 PM

well possessions

PoxToday at 7:03 PM

Pictures, antiques, valuables?

󠇰 iceyToday at 7:03 PM

yes

PoxToday at 7:03 PM

How far does it extend?

Is my three room apartment my possession?

But the apartment complex is owned by everyone.

Is that one apartment room mine?

󠇰 iceyToday at 7:04 PM

exactly

well its OWNED by the collective

but you live in it

PoxToday at 7:04 PM

I live in it but everyone owns it. Therefore, everyone can live in it. Anyone can just come in because they own it too.

That's where I disagree in collective ownership.

󠇰 iceyToday at 7:04 PM

ownership doesnt mean you can live in it

PoxToday at 7:05 PM

If I own a computer, I can't use it?

If I own a shed, I can't store things in it? Or even live in it?

󠇰 iceyToday at 7:05 PM

its a personal property

k like one at a time lol

PoxToday at 7:05 PM

no

󠇰 iceyToday at 7:05 PM

you still think from a private ownership stance

PoxToday at 7:06 PM

Alright, so the computer was made by workers in a factory.

Each worker collectively owns the computer because each worked on it.

󠇰 iceyToday at 7:06 PM

one at a time jesus

PoxToday at 7:06 PM

But, yet, it's mine?

NO!

󠇰 iceyToday at 7:06 PM

omfg

PoxToday at 7:06 PM

Not one at a time

󠇰 iceyToday at 7:07 PM

your shed is owned collectively by your commune and the commune decides what is personal property and not

PoxToday at 7:08 PM

Alright, so what if we have 50 people in this commune. 30 people agree that this antique shovel from say World War 2 is my personal property because my grandfather used it in battle. And 20 people say no, it is owned by everyone, all 50 people. What happens then?

󠇰 iceyToday at 7:09 PM

private property pretty much means means of production

PoxToday at 7:09 PM

How does everyone come to a singular agreement?

󠇰 iceyToday at 7:09 PM

personal property is different

PoxToday at 7:09 PM

Give me an example of both.

󠇰 iceyToday at 7:10 PM

private property is a factory, personal property is a shed

idk man i dont even believe in fucking communism

PoxToday at 7:11 PM

But, private property is my shed. When you see someone's house with a no trespassing sign, you are trespassing on private property. Personal property to my mind is private property, but more sacred to you. If you get what I mean?

Well neither do I.

Have I made you go insane yet?

󠇰 iceyToday at 7:12 PM

nah i have been trolling this whole time

PoxToday at 7:12 PM

big oof

󠇰 iceyToday at 7:12 PM

i am a nazi

PoxToday at 7:12 PM

I was about to say, I'm actually a National Socialist

jk no homo

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