LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

DavidJanuary 30, 2012

A collection of tips/ answers

Since kitchens have higher lighting requirements, I like to use 35 lumen per sq ft as a rule to compute the number of lights. If there are additional sources of light that will be used, the output (lumens not watts) from those sources can be deducted from the total.

Placement/ layout

1. Cans should be > 24 to 30 inches from the wall (on center). Most countertop spaces have upper cabinets (typically ~ 12" deep) + crown molding. The edge of the can may be spaced ~ 12" away from the edge of the crown molding (if present or cabinet if there is no crown molding) making the average distance between 26 to 30 inches.

2. Assuming the need for a fairly uniformly lit space @ 35 lumens per sq ft, the cans may have to be spaced closer together - between 3 - 4 ft apart (if all general lighting is provided by recessed lights). A fairly regular pattern is preferable to a random layout.

3. The actual layout of cans will be impacted by the location of ceiling joists, HVAC ducting, electrical wiring, plumbing, ceiling height, fire suppression sprinklers and other obstructions above the ceiling.

Dimming

The Cree LR6 series lamps do not dim as well as the later models (CR6, ...). ELV dimmers probably work better with LR6 than incandescent dimmers since the total load of the lights may not meet the minimum load requirement for the incandescent dimmer.

Dimmers such as the Lutron Diva CL dimmers work well. The max output is 95%.

Some Choices (in order of preference) and notes

Cree CR6 or ECO-575 (Home Depot branded CR6)

ECO4-575 (Home Depot branded Cree CR4 4" recessed light)

The above are only available in 2700k light color.

Cree LR6 series - including the LE6.

The Cree CR6 and LR6 lamps will not fit into 5" housings.

The standard LR6 behaves more like a surface mount than a recessed light as the LED emitters are close to the surface and the recess is shallow. Some may not like the amount of light spillage (standard LR6).

There is a higher output version of the LR6 that has a much deeper recess.

To prevent the Cree lamps from falling out, the 3 prongs have to be fully extended and a slight clockwise twist made when push installing. The slight clockwise twist will ensure that the prongs are fully extended.

The Cree lamps are currently the best available today (2012).

Sylvania RT-6, RT-4. The lights could be easier to install than Cree lamps as they utilize the torsion spring mechanism. However, the lights do not look as pleasant as the Cree lamps.

The Cree and Sylvania lamps do outperform 26W CFLs (and incandescents) in a standard recessed can in terms of light spread and output as the standard bulb in a can solution traps a significant amount of light. The Cree and Sylvania recessed lamp solutions referenced above have all the LED elements facing outwards so that the effective light output is higher.

You have answered these questions so often that the summary guide is very helpful. Some additional situations come readily to mind (my own for example) ...

Most of us will use under cab lighting for countertop tasks. Given a 50 inch aisle between countertops and island, should the can lights be centred on the aisle for general lighting rather than over the edge of the countertop?

For those undercab lights, what are the "rules" for spacing the "pucks" ... and any special notes for LED strips.

For island pendants, what is the favoured solution ... is a LED light recommended? and if so which one?

For your situation, it would probably look more symmetrical if the lights are centered on the aisle and there are no other sources of light for general lighting.

On the other hand, a counter argument can be made that as there probably will be pendants over the island, the cans should be placed around the edge of the countertop.

There is a LED Continuation thread that covers strip lighting. Puck spacing really depends on the output of each puck and the length of cord between. Installing puck lighting could be more work than the equivalent strip light since each would have to be individually fastened and aligned along with the cord between.

Island pendants can take many shapes from a suspended tube light to individual lamps (40W / 60W/ ...).

LED bulb tips
1. Always look for the output in lumens. Never rely on vague claims of "output like X watts" which is an old trick.
2. If the output per watt is ~ 20+ per watt, that is no better than using a halogen. The L-prize bulb from Philips produces > 90 lumens per watt.
3. The CRI should be 80 or better.

Thanks for the suggestions - I will look at our plans and adjust accordingly.
I plan to use cans over the countertops - Just to clarify and understand - are you recommending the cans over the countertop or partially over countertop and edge of counter?

Is is better to have a decorative light in the center of the kitchen or use cans throughout. We have 7 feet between counters

Some additional notes.
1. It will be easier to plan the pattern of light cans if the ceiling is not yet installed.
2. Retrofit cans rely on the ceiling board for support unlike the new construction cans.
3. Do check on the local energy code requirements. If you are subject to energy efficiency laws such as Title 24, the choice of bulb/ lamp and housings will be affected. For example, Title 24 requires that the housing is airtite and rated for insulation contact.

Yup - obviously my dad's electrical knowledge did not infuse to his daughter....
I will have to check on the codes. Our town is pretty darn strict on the codes.
I like the idea of a screw bulb - it allows much more flexibility for the future.
We had both bulbs in one fixture and my DH verdict....
He likes the 740 lumen version. He said a bit harsh but much better lighting.
The 750 lumen was "wimpy". Interesting....

The Cree lamps are actually 90 or higher, which is one of their advantages over most other brands which are usually 80 to 85. Their separate floodlamp bulbs (without integral trim kits) are even better, up to 94 CRI.

CREE
CR6/ LR6/ LE6 Edison base
For a standard edison base (E26) can, there is an adjustable plate to which the E26 socket is attached. This plate is there to allow the use of various bulbs - short /long neck bulbs

The socket needs to be removed from the plate and left dangling.
1. Unscrew the bulb.
2. Remove the existing trim piece.
3. Loosen the adjustable plate so that you can take it out.
4. Detach the edison base from the plate.
5. Screw in the CR6/ LR6.
6. Fully extend the 3 metal tabs.
7. Push in the lamp and give it a slight clockwise twist at the end.

For LR6 lamps with the GU24 whip connector, follow the instructions that came with the whip connector.
Summary below
1. Snip off the 2 wires to whatever connector (e.g. - E26) is in the can.
2. Attach each of the wires in the whip connector to the corresponding wire.
The result is that you will have a GU24 connector dangling around in the can.
If you're not comfortable modifying the can, get an electrician (preferably one who has done the procedure).

For the CR4,
1. Unscrew the bulb.
2. Remove the existing trim. If your can is similar to the HI99CAT, there will not be an adjustable plate. This is most likely the case.
3. Make sure the 3 tabs are fully extended.
4. Screw in the E26 end of the pigtail.
5. Push the lamp into the existing can and give it a slight clockwise twist at the end.

Sylvania RT6 (Edison base)
Follow steps 1 through 5 as for the Cree LR6/ CR6.
Hook in the torsion springs as described in the accompanying installation instructions
RT4 (Edison base)
Follow steps 1 through 4 as for the Cree CR4. Final step is identical to that for the RT6.

Thank you for all the excellent information! We live in California and are building a home, thus we need new construction housings & approximately 60 lights. I like everything you've said about the ECO4-575, but Home Depot doesn't sell a kit or an accompanying housing. What do you recommend?

I should clarify. We desperately need help finding recessed LED 4" lights for new construction, Title 24 compliant (we live in CA), and 2700K. Right now, it seems that we can get a kit for 6" LED's with 3000k lights for $60, but the 2700K light kits are $180. As we need approximately 60 lights, you can see how this becomes an issue. We've looked into buying the components separately, and for a trial run we have ordered a ECO4-575 ($39), and an Elite 4" IC New Construction Airtight Dedicated LED Can ($15).

I've read online that each manufacture has different connections, so our soft white ECO4-575's won't work with the Elite cans. I checked Home Depot & they are pretty much useless with regards to both products & information. I looked online & found the "Cree H4 - 4" Recessed Housing with GU24 Socket", but it requires specific downlights & trims, and the price totals $140.

We have 8' ceilings, except in the kitchen where they're 7.5'. My husband & I are both 6'+, and having a large can that close to eye level looks horrible, I don't want anything larger than a 4" can.

I welcome any suggestions on how we can light our home for less than $100/light.

Yep, Home Depot recently started selling the EcoSmart w/ GU24 base online only (Model # ECO4-575L-GU24). We ordered one of those & the Cree H4 - 4" Recessed Housing with GU24 Socket from Polar-Ray. I'm hoping that since they're both Cree & 4", we might have a chance. If that doesn't work, we'll try to hardwire something.

I got the Nora 4" GU24 can and an ECO4-575-GU24. This can has the socket attached in a fixed location, top of can.

The LED has a twisted wire with the GU24 on the end. I could barely get it connected (wife's smaller hands help). If they made the wire 1" longer it would be easy, if it were 1/2" shorter it would be impossible.

The ECO4 comes with a GU24 socket and connectors so that one can permanently convert an Edison can. They make the wires rather short. I picked up an Elco 4" Edison can with adjustable position. The eBay GU24 snap-in socket replaced the Edison with ease, so that is another way to go. Elco also makes the 4" GU24 version EL99ICA-G24 with adjustable position, so that should also work okay.

Am I going to run into any inspector issues (San Jose, CA) putting Cree or Sylvania LED trims in various cans? Do the cans or LEDs have to be rated to work together?

There are many bulbs which utilize Cree components but not the Cree patents such as TrueWhite or Remote Phosphor patents.
Brief description
TrueWhite - Utilization of a mix of different color LEDs to better approximate white light
Remote Phosphor - Utilization of a phosphor layer away from the LED elements to enhance output, reduce color shift.

> The Cree and Sylvania led trims are intended to fit into
> both new construction/ retrofit and existing cans.

> The inspector is supposed to make sure that the cans
>(and the installation) comply strictly with title 24.

And there is the rub. Something that I had missed in my earlier reading is that

"A luminaire with a factory installed GU-24 lamp holder may be classified as high efficacy provided that it meets all of the following requirements:
1. The luminaire is not a recessed downlight rated to be used with a compact fluorescent lamp; and ..."

The cheaper Nora and Elco GU-24 cans are rated for self-ballasted CFLs, which makes those cans fail Title 24. So this means that, to pass Title 24 with new recessed kitchen fixtures, you can ONLY use an LED-only can with GU24, or a CFL can with ballast in the can (NOT GU24). Already spending extra just not to have a screw-in socket, now seems that I have to spend even more if I want LED.

There is further language in the 2008 Title 24 that allows LED trims, that have been approved by the State of CA for efficacy, to be installed in GU24 cans which are listed for CFLs, despite the above paragraphs. So all is good, except that everything costs more (can, LED) for GU24.

>Not an expert on T24, but I would have assumed GU24 cans
>would qualify since the only light bulbs that fit them are
>LED or CFL, both which are high-efficiency.

As the quoted language 3 posts up said, GU24 recessed cans rated for CFL are specifically not allowed for Title 24 compliance. Apparently you can get by that only by installing an approved LED trim in that can. Approval for LED would require at least 40 lumens/watt under 15W, at least 50 lumens/watt 15-40 watts, and at least 60 lumens/watt for LEDs over 40 watts.

Looking at an approved LED list, I see that CREE has some 800+ lumen CR6's that have been approved a couple of months ago. Efficacy over 70 lumens/watt. They are also already on the California Title 24 list. I don't see them available for sale yet. This might sway me to stay with 6" cans instead of 4". I need to start installing cans this week, but could wait 2-3 months to by the LED trims.

I noticed that on the last CR6 I bought a month or two ago (and current ones at Home Depot) the box says it is now rated to draw 9.5 watts, whereas the previous ones were rated to draw 10.5 watts. Dividing by the 575 lumen output, would give 60.5 lumens/watt vs 54.7 watts.

One might think this indicates an improvement. But I took down an old CR-6 that I bought nearly a year ago. Both new and old measured 9.5 watts on my Kill-A-Watt meter.

The Energy Star site always rated the CR6 at 9.1 to 9.5 watts; Cree just rated it conservatively. The lamp hasn't changed, only the packaging (I think). Also, it used to specify 92 CRI, now only 90.

Wow, those new Cree/Ecosmart CR6's (ECO-800L) look great - rated at 800 lumens but measured at 877.3, also 93 CRI, 2700K. Hopefully these will show up at HD soon, and not be too expensive. The spreadsheet shows Edison-base versions too as well as GU24.

David Tay's general advise has been extremely helpful to planning my recessed lights. However his first rule of thumb about distance from the the wall assumes you have upper cabinets. I do not have upper cabinets. My counters are 27" deep. Should I place my recessed lights 13.5" from the wall so as to light the center of the task area? I am worried if I place them off the edge of the counter at 27" or 26", I will cast a shadow over the counter when I lean forward.

Hi All, I am going with the ECO4-575L or ECO4-575L-GU24 ... Can anyone tell me what housing will work with these? My contractor purchased the Elite remodel non-IC housing (I think LD4R-AT-W) prior to me choosing the ECO4-575. The housing has an orange connector (sorry I don't know what this is) but the ECO4-575 does not, so I don't know if these will work together.

Mikevbf,
You could try putting the cans 1' from the wall if there is sufficient clearance above. For example, if the wall is the outside wall of a 1 story dwelling with a steeply pitched roof, there just might be enough space for a 6" can.

Otherwise, you might have to consider using other lighting forms such as pendants.

BlackChamois,
It looks like your contractor might have purchased some 4" Halo LED cans.
You could use the GU24 pigtails (with the cans purchased by your contractor) or the Nora lighting cans discussed above.

Elco also makes GU24 and Edison base cans, which fit just fine. Unlike the Nora GU24 can, which has the GU24 socket attached to the top of the can, these have a bit of wire length on the socket. This makes it a bit easier to install the ECO4-575-GU24.

Personally, I would stick with screw-in cans, unless you are constrained by local regulations (e.g. Title 24 in California). The cans are cheaper, and pretty much every LED maker has a version that will screw in -- often cheaper than the GU24 version.

DavidTay,
I do not quite get your response. I will give you a little more details in hopes that your next response will make more sense to me. The Kitchen is in a 200 year plus old house with flat ceilings about 93" high. The counter is a standard 36" high. In front of the counters are windows instead of cabinets.

I do not love recessed lights in an old house, but am making an exception in this case for the practical purpose of task lighting in a space with low ceilings. The 6" cans were just too big for me. So I went with your 4" suggestion which BTW I got for $30 a pop from Home Depot.

Since I am NOT trying to clear an upper cabinet and do not have the advantage of under cabinet lights to fill any shadows in, should I set the cans 1', 13.5", 20", 26", or 27" from the wall? Remember my counter depth is 27". Right now I am inclined to split the difference and set the cans 20" from the wall.

It would be better if the light were in front - ie approx 1' from the wall.

However, the final placement from the wall will be dictated by whatever is above the ceiling. You will need to check the clearances in the space above the ceiling. In some cases- single storey dwellings, due to obstructions and the slope of the roof, any recessed can lights have to be placed further away- 3' from the wall for larger cans due to the lack of space. A 4" can may be able to fit closer, but you should check.

The ceiling is down and the joists run such that I can set the cans any distance from the wall. So I will set them 1' from the wall which biases them slightly closer to the window than the edge of the counter since the counter depth is 27". I do not know why 1' is better than 13.5" or 20" from the wall, but I will depend on your judgement and experience. We will probably set them today. Thank you.

I see that the CR6-800 lumen products have made their to vendors, at least as a "coming soon" item. Should really be available by the time I have to decide on my island lighting (6 cans, but the CR6-525L seems maybe just a touch under the light level I like for detailed work).

The 12w, 800-lumen CR6 is now on the Cree website (called the CR6-800L, or CR6-800L-GU24 for the GU24 version). Elsewhere in the world they already have a 1000-lumen CR6, albeit in 3000k and 4000K versions only, neither which is sold in the US. They run on 240v, but can handle 60Hz as well as 50Hz so I assume they would work here.

Also now on the Cree website is te the CR4, also in Edison-base or GU24 versions. The surprise here is that they can be ordered with specular reflectors rather than just white ones (add a -D to the end of the model number). The CR6 is sold only in white, although four different colored snap-in trimpieces are available.

Don't know if Home Depot will offer a discounted Ecosmart-branded version of the CR6-800L yet. As before, the Cree-branded lights have a longer warranty, and Cree also notes that they include commercial as well as residential Energy Star certification.

Hope I am not to late to jump on this discussion..
Any suggestions/ recommendations for an economical non-IC housing to fit 4" CREE CR4"s (ECO4-575)..preferably without modifications. My contractor is removing the kitchen ceiling, so it will be equivalent to a new build.

Also, I see on the Cree website that they recommend an ELV dimmer if you are putting multiple dimmer circuits on the same breaker. My plan calls for 11 CR4's and I don't see an ELV dimmer listed in their recommendations that will handle more than 10 lights. I would love to get them on the same dimmer.. or is that a bad idea?

Regarding the HD Ecosmart version of the CR6 800L, I see that a VP of Cree says that it will not be offered, just the CR6 version through distributors. The Ecosmart version is listed on the Energy Star and another approval list, but that doesn't mean Cree will actually market them that way. The only two places I see it so far are about the same price ($55 and $56), with one having free shipping.

This forum has been a big help. I am interested in using LED lighting in my kitchen. I have looked at both the 6" and and Eco 4" Cree led's at my local Home depot. My question is regarding the difference between these Cree led's with the attached trim ring and just regular LED bulbs. Does the trim ring and all have to be replaced when the bulb finally goes? I see at my local costco, they have led bulbs pretty resonably priced. I understand that i would still have to purchase the trim ring, but i think i may still be able to go that route cheaper than using the 6" or 4" Cree. Are there advantages to the Cree that other LED's do not provide? Any info would br greatly appreciated! Thanks!

Yes, the trim piece is typically replaced, though they can be detached.

The advantages are
1. The output is all directed outwards unlike a normal bulb configuration which results in quite a bit of light being trapped within the can.
2. The module is designed and tested for use in a recessed can and would have a much longer lifespan than a bulb put in a recessed can.
3. The typical price range for a new trim piece is ~ $10 - 4. It is easier to replace the entire unit.

Davidtay, thank you again for all your help! I put the 900 Lumen's Reveal Halogen bulbs in my kitchen. Although I love the light, they get hot. Now I am ready to do the home office room which is the living room. I have a separate family room open to the kitchen.

My room is about 12 X 15 and I am using 4 touchier rooms to light up the room using 4 fluorescent bulbs. The ceiling gets lit up in spots and other spots are dark. I can't stand sitting in a dark room with two desk lights on my work space since I can't see. I am thinking that I need to keep the room looking like a living room and a fixture over my desk would not be centered in the room so I have finally decided to install LED recessed cans. Do you think 6 would be enough? I wish they had out the 1,000 watt version bulbs in the USA.

LR6C-DR1000 LED Bulbs with trim providing 1,000 Lumens. I wonder if this would be a good bulb for my office & if an electrician can install this for me? Would 6 be enough? I have 6 at 900 lumens in my kitchen and I find the room not bright enough for my eyes and I guess that is why others have under cabinet lighting.

I can install the bulbs myself in the kitchen but in my home office where I want the 3500K 1,000 Lumens LED bulbs has no cans and no light at all in the ceiling. There is a bedroom above this room and not an attic. The ceiling has Styrofoam popcorn on it. The lights near it is in the foyer and the dining room as the living room is only separated by a half a wall from the dining room that I am using as a office also with tall file cabinets there and a desk hidden by the cabinets for when I have a part-time employee here. I live alone so the kitchen table in the kitchen is enough for me and the kitchen is open to the family room. Hence, when clients walk into my home they only see my two room office that badly needs better lighting. I wish I could make holes in the ceiling myself and install the cans but I don't know much about electrical wiring but I do know that there is nothing there now at all to work off of except for the nearby rooms.

I agree that I feel the 3500K is better for working now that I put 3500K bulbs in the dining room fixture (had almost 300 watts of light using only 69 watts of power as I used CFL's there). The light is a nice white light but it is not lighting up the desk there either as the fixture is in the middle of the room but I may leave that room alone as I don't work in there.

I was wondering why my 900 lumen lightbulbs I bought for the bathroom were so much brighter than the reveal bulbs for the cans. So I will not get the lumen's stated on the bulb.

Since the LED bulbs are part of the trim, will I get 1,000 watts from that? I have to check the type of screw in bulbs part to be sure it is compatible with whatever is installed.

For those of you that have title 24 issues, I saw an LED light unit at Home Depot last night the can be either retrofit into a 5 or 6" can, or surface mounted into a standard j-box using a provided strap. It has a trim ring that is flush with the ceiling and the light portion is a shallow dome that protrudes a bit below the ceiling plane. They are 750 lumen units and cost $30 each. I assume that the j-box route would avoid the title 24 can issues.

There are GU 24 and E26 versions of the Cree CR series lamps. However, they may not be the best solution if you don't already have recessed cans.

There is the Lighting Science Glimpse which is probably the LED light unit Marrkk is referring to. Such lamps would be easier to install over a standard J box rather than making a recessed lamp fitting.

The main draw back is that the box is most likely in the center of the room which isn't the typical location for a desk.

Hi Davidtay, Thank you for posting. I have currently 4 CFL torchiere lamps that are better than nothing as they provide some light but since I turned 50 this year, I seem to need more light and it bothers me that my desk is not lit up. The two desk lamps are making my feel like I am sitting in a room with so many dark patches. It is uncomfortable. I am waiting for the electrician to get back to me for a quote and if he can go through the garage or if he can even do the recessed in my ceiling. I told him if he has to make a mess, I still have the mess in my kitchen to patch up so the painter will do both. This electrician feels I should save money and use CFL's in my recessed lighting until the LED prices go down. He will price the quote with CFL's and if I want to utilize his services and I truly want LED's, he will quote that also or allow me to buy my own lights.

Also you are right that my desk is near the front of the room with clients sitting in front and my lower file cabinets in back of me and on the sides in back of me to hold the two printers and the copiers. A centered light would not be over my desk.

Davidtay, from reading the above posts again, it looks like I am right that the LED lights will be better for my office than the CFL lights. I need to find a light to recommend to the electrician. I really wanted the higher lumen bulb but I don't like the fact it is GU24 rather then E26. Maybe I should try the Cree LR6 as it looks like they provide great light even after 1 hour.

Lynn2006, CFL recessed lights could be problematic when the integrated ballast (contained in the recessed can housing) fails as you either need access to the upper side of the can or perform the change from below through the 6" hole.
In addition, the CFL tube is different from the standard E26 base spiral bulbs and costs more.
For CFL cans, the cost breakdown is as follows
1. Recessed can ~ $30 - $40. (Non dimmable)
2. Blub ~ $10 - $15.
3. Trim ring ~ $10+ to $20 (Special trim can go for up to $40).

For LED, assuming you're comfortable with the attached trim
1. Standard can ~$10.
2. Lamp (CR6) ~ $25 - $40 (depending on local promos/ subsidies)
LR6 ~ $75 (there may be promotions around black Friday)
Both the CR6 and LR6 lamps are available with either the E26 or GU24 base.
An alternative brand to CREE is Sylvania, though the dimming performance is not as good and there is a noticeable delay when turning the light on.

Davidtay, I appreciate the breakout of the costs and from all these posts, I really want LED. I also like the light it remits and it seems that I am better off that way. I will see what this electrician quotes and I may call back an electrician that I liked that wanted to do the LED in my kitchen but took two weeks to get back to me with an estimate. He did LED in his house and I guess he was in the middle of a big job. I would like to use CREE from all these discussions and the fact they dim better with a better CRI. I need good light so I cam work efficiently and not be thinking of needing more light but be thinking about my work. I also want the room to look nice as a living room if I sell my townhouse one day that is in a very nice neighborhood surrounded by very nice houses.

I am in the middle of a kitchen renovation and believe I may have made a planning error. I had my contractor install 3 3/4" Lightolier 2000 recessed lights 8 1/2" in front of where my wall cabinets will be installed. I just now came across this post and am concerned that my cabinet will be washed out from the light. Should I go to my contractor tomorrow and ask him to adjust the lights further from the wall, or is the extra 3 1/2" nothing to worry about?

The kitchen is roughly 10 1/2' by 10 1/2'. We have 8 of 3 3/4" cans installed. If its relevant, the cabinets are Toffee colored Kraftmaid cabinets.

I am new to the forum but I find many searches lead here and there is a lot of smart people here. This is a very interesting information and useful.

I too live in CA so have title 24 issues to consider. I am redoing my kitchen. I want a 4" and I am not a fan of 2700 (I prefer a cooler light so I am thinking 3000 or maybe 3500). That pretty much leaves the Cree lights out unless I go with the LR4. I recall searching a year or two ago and discovering that the LR4 will not fit in a standard 4" can. Has that changed?

Second question, I have not seen Halo (Cooper) mentioned. Any thoughts or commentary on Halo for 4" recessed LED lighting?

Thank you for the quick response. I and many others appreciate your expertise and generosity in answering questions. So if I rule out the 2500k bulbs I guess my options are Sylvania RT4 at 3000K or spend the extra for Halo and go 3500K. Did I miss any reasonable choices?

Skidkey, I am like you and prefer 3,000K to 3,500K light than 2,700K light. I am wanting to stay with 6" cans to give me more choices. I need recessed cans in my home office as I have no overhead lighting and it is bothering me living with the touchier lamps that produce 4,800 lumen's per lamp from the fluorescent bulbs I am using but the light goes up to the ceiling and bounces off the ceiling rather than face down.

I am now thinking that I need 8 cans but I really want LED and the electrician I like is pushing fluorescent. I told him yesterday to call me after my tax deadline and then we will discuss what I want. I have lived with this poor light for 14 years and now I want light over my head and realize I must invest. I never liked incandescent bulbs for lighting as I feel they are blurry and are not as easy to read under as halogen and fluorescent. But now I learned about LED and feel that is what I would prefer.

I love the light from the Halogen bulbs in my kitchen (just wish I installed 8 instead of 6 as I feel I still need more light despite each bulb being 900 watts and the kitchen only being not quite 10 X 14 in size) that is around 3,000K and 100% CRI, and I even like the 3,500K light bulbs I have in my dining room fixture (Fluorescent) that give such a nice white light that is so easy to work under. I use the dining room as a office for a part-time employee and my living room as my home office that clients walk directly into with a tiny foyer before it so they never have to enter my home. I still have a family room open to the kitchen where I installed the beautiful but very hot halogen recessed lighting near the end of December 2011. I do not want such hot bulbs in my home office.

This electrician says he can try to go through the garage that is next to the living room (my home office) so not to make a mess like is still in my kitchen's ceiling and not fixed yet as I am waiting to see what I do to my home office. I now wish I waited to do the kitchen after I removed my soffit and changed my cabinets that I plan to do in the next few months. I had no idea what mess the kitchen's ceiling would be and that patching it up was not part of the work.

My open rooms have the same ceiling so I want to paint all the ceilings when I am done downstairs except for the family room cathedral ceiling. I can't believe these expensive townhouses came with no lights in the ceiling. I never realized this would be a problem when I fell in love with my home 14 years ago and bought it for the layout and perfect location.

alot of electricians and installers just aren't familiar enough with LEDs yet so they recommend other stuff. You could just have him install standard incandescent cans (assuming you don't live in CA) with floodlamp bulbs, and replace them yourself with LED floodlamp bulbs or modules.

Our electrician is recommending 6" cans with CFL lights - I think I have elected 5" cans - and I don't like the bulb not filling the can. And also think I have gleaned that the newer way to go is the smaller can -seeing that many others are using 4".

This is for our kitchen - with no attic above - a second floor instead.

The typical CFL can will come with an integrated ballast (mounted on the side of the can in a separate compartment) which is not dimmable. Replacing the ballast is not something that the typical homeowner would do, especially from the underside of the can (ie - the living space). The CF tubes themselves will cost more than the typical spiral CFL lamp.

LED lamps do not require the electronic ballast and are best used with non CFL cans as the ballast does not have to be first disconnected.
The best large aperture LED lights at the moment are CREE series CR6 lamps which will utilize 6" standard depth cans.

For 4", the CREE CR4 is probably the best (from a $ and performance perspective).

6" LED package ( CR6 Lamp + housing) is slightly cheaper than 4". If only a few (The link wobbly1905 posted in another thread is very useful visualization tool.

Thoughts on color temps for a kitchen? Considering the task nature of a kitchen, is 2700 (Cree CR6 in particular) too warm?

We have 10 26-watt recessed can CFLs, at 4100 Kelvin, in our kitchen. Even though the CFLs are relatively efficient, considering usage and our (outrageous) power rates, an upgrade to CR6s would pay for itself in about 15 months. Plus they wouldn't take a minute or two to come to full brightness...

Hate to hijack this thread, but it does contain good information in it. For info, I currently have the Halo H25ICAT's installed with the 5060P ring and gimball. Uses currently PAR30S 50W halogen's. I am getting conflicting information from the local lighting stores around here that are telling me that there currently isn't a bulb that would work with this setup. Since I'm a rookie at all this, can anyone guide me a little? I see plenty of PAR30S LED bulbs from Toshiba and Philips, but nothing from CREE that would work?

The can is 5.5" in diameter, 5.25" deep and CR6 will not fit.
Options
1. The Lighting Science Glimpse will fit.
2. There are a number of PAR30S LED bulbs (some of which use CREE components) you could look at.
3. Halo RL560

Great forum and I've learned a lot as I've been planning ao replace my two huge and outdated 8-light (35W ea) flourescent boxes. Now that I've just completed my first-ever flourescent/recessed lighting removal/install in my 12' x 13' galley style kitchen I wanted to share what I used for my project. I got all my cans and LED lights from my local LOWE's (and no I don't work for them but Lord knows I should own shares given all the cash I've given 'em for all of my home projects!). Anyways, I used 9 ea NON-IC HALO 4" H99RTAT remodel housing cans ($15.66 ea) and fitted each with a Sylvania Ultra High Performance 4" LED recessed kit lights ($39.98). Even got the ROMEX 12/2 type NM-B power cable there as well. The lights are designed to install in standard 4" insultated & non-insulated housings and as a plus have an integrated trim ring/housing (mine are white but I believe they currently come in a few other colors). that The LED lights were very easy to install (they come with the light assy and a separate short screw-in connector harness)and the whole assemply pushes in snugly in-place with three claw spring "feet" that protrude from its sides around 120 degress apart. The LEDs are 50W wide flood replacements and are rated at 9W while producing 550 lumens at 3000K and are also dimmable (100%-20%). I also installed a Lutron C-L dimmer (also from Lowe's) that appears to work fine after adjustment. The overall effect of these lights versus the boxed flourescents is wonderful...really provides better balanced and "cleaner" light throught the kitchen and I'm happy with the results.

I was wondering if somebody could give me some suggestions as to how to fit my LED lights in my 5" cans. I got these lights on ebay (link below). And I tried 4" Halo housings from Lowes, but they were too tight. I also tried 5" Halo cans from Lowes, but they were too big (the opening is actually 5.5", which I'm told is standard). Another issue I have is that I'm installing these on a vaulted ceiling with 2x8 joists, so I need the shallow, IC rated housings. I bougt the Halo H25ICAT housings.
I'm trying to come up with a way to make these LED lights that I bought on ebay fit in the 5" cans, even if I have to rig it somehow. There are small springs on the led light, but they're not big or strong enough to hold the light in the can.

After doing much research I decided that I wanted to install the HD EcoSmart CR4 or CR6 in my remodeled kitchen only to discover that my contractor installed 5 inch cans. My contractor thinks he can make the CR4 work by placing A second trim ring on the can which will then keep the CR4 from falling out. Has anyone tried this? Do you see any problems with this approach? Thanks for your help...I really want to use the Cree lights.

We just started to install 4" led can lights over our kitchen island and discovered the one that was to be centered over the cooktop is smack dab on a joist! What is the best way to distribute the lights - do we just evenly distribute them in the space and not worry about exact centering above the cooktop? Or do we put two over the cooktop or ....????
Our kitchen space has one wall with refrig and sink and cabinets approx length 12' and the island is 8x3.5 placed 48" from the refrig wall.Thanks!

I went with the Sylvania RT6 for the kitchen. The light is amazing. I have an issue with all 7 kits - they will not mount flush to the ceiling. The cans are on the approved list and there is nothing blocking the RT6 kits from going flush. I can hold them flush to the ceiling but every time I let go they fall a good inch down.

It was suppose to be as easy as putting in a light bulb...i'm guessing the torsion spring isn't working out correctly. Any suggestions to fix this issue would be greatly appreciated as the wife does not like the look of the floating light kits.

I'm using the same small oval slots that are for the trim. It should just pull the lamp up tight - but it doesn't. I ran over to the big box store and asked the lighting worker and they said to try to loosen or tighten the screws on both sides of the lamp. Just got done trying both options and the lamp still falls an inch from the ceiling.

The cans are Capri Lighting model CR1NB which are on the approved housing list for the Sylvania RT6 lamps. Any other suggestions or do I need to start looking for my receipt and return all 7 of these?

I recently installed 7 RT4's in our newly renovated kitchen. Not sure who manufactured the cans but I have a few that sag a few millimeter's. I spoke with the sales rep and he suggested expanding the torsion springs thus increasing their strength.

What a great thread. Can you suggest a good place to purchase 6" Cree's? I've already got the cans installed. Now I need 75 LED's to go into them. They're 40 bucks apiece at home depot!!! I need the plug in ones.

We are building a house and want to get LED recessed lights. Our builder has given us an allowence of 20 recessed lights. He has told us not to get LED lights initially because they tend to get knocked around during the build process and would not last, an that we should put something less expensive in initially. Does this sound correct? Also is most of the expense in the bulb or in all else (the housing) that we would need to cover to add more lights over our 20 allowence? In other words is the bulb the bulk of the expense or is it the housing?

How did you know that the cans have changed from 575 to 625 lumens? Did the part number change (since the '575' was embedded in the part number). I just bought a few more of these and am wondering if I should change them. I don't know if I'll notice a difference in brightness between the 575/625 if they are next to each other.

I just saw the new boxes in HD. Different color box, and spec says 625. The "CR6" stock and pricing seems to be changing at HD -- even though they jacked the price from ~$27 to ~$35, they are advertising it in store as a price reduction -- and this in on the older 575L stock. Makes me wonder whether they will stop carrying them, or the CREE agreement changed, or what is going on.

I have 800L in the 9 ft tray part of my ceiling, and 575L in the surrounding 8 ft -- brightness difference is not very obvious, so I don't think you will notice 575/625 much if any.

BTW, in my area, the 6" 575Ls were $34.97 and the 4" 575Ls were 42.97. I've never seen them at $27, but I do know that in some parts, they were subsidized by the local utility. San Luis Obispo for instance had the 6" for $24.97. Perhaps the subsidy for your area expired?

I'm posting here, as this is the most relevant existing thread for this, and I've searched for answers elsewhere. I think as products get introduced, new solutions get introduced.

My problem: looking for CA Title 24 compliant kitchen lighting that won't result in a swiss cheese ceiling. I also don't want to get stuck into a custom connector, as I find them to be expensive and very risky (from a supply of replacements 10 years down the road).

Our contractor keeps pushing halogens for the recessed cans in our southern California kitchen addition (1899 house). We are nearing the rough electrical stage and I would like him to install warm white LEDs if the cost is not prohibitive. Now our contractor's lighting guy writes that the Cree CR4-575L-GU24s--at least the EcoSmart ones from HD--use plastic colored filters (instead of glass) to warm the color temperature and that although this may keep the cost lower it affects long-term service as the coating tends to crack and break long before the LED gives out. (That's almost a perfect quote.) I want to know if this is right, if non-HD Cree lights (such as those from polar-ray.com) also use plastic, and what you all think of the lighting guy's claim that "equivalents" are "Satco, Viribright or TCP." I am dubious. Should I be?

I just had 9 of the HD 4" CREEs installed in my kitchen and I love them. I have only had them for 2 months but I can't imagine that the plastic would crack or peel because they do not get hot like halogens or incandescent bulbs. Do not install halogen cans in your kitchen...they will make the kitchen unbearably hot!

The Cree lamps - LR and CR series do not rely on plastic colored filters. The lamps have an array of different light color LEDs. There are documented tear downs which show the layout and individual components.

My electrician just installed the RC-6 housing for the Cree lights in my kitchen, but we're unsure about which bulb/trim to use. The undercab lights are 4000K light bars; I experimented w/ several different types and chose these because the neutral white was better for close work and I didn't find them to be overly harsh. The electrician is concerned that the 2700K of the CR6 will not work well the UCLs. I'm less inclined to want to go with the 3500K LR6 because of what I have read above and elsewhere about both the shallow housing and the lack of good dimmability. And there is also the 625L vs 800L options on the CR6, so I really have three choices.

My fab electrician is trying to see if he can get all three for me to try, but if that fails, does anyone have any suggestions on how to choose?

Yikes, even more options!!! You were supposed to help me pick, not make it harder! No, seriously, thanks jacob-md for the info. Does anyone know the CRI on the EcoSmarts?? HD is claiming they incorporate the Cree TruWhite technology, so would that put the CRI at 90?

The 625-lumen CR6 2700K just showed up at my local HD - same price, same SKU, still called ECO-575L. Not obviously brighter than the old ones. Prices here are $35 for the 2700K 6", $37 for the 5000K 6" (also 625L) and $43 for the 4" 2700K. All are the lowest prices they've ever been. The energystar.gov site does show that Cree did indeed submit some new updated CR6 2700K lamps that actually tested as 623 to 625 lumens and 92 or 93 CRI (higher than the advertisied 90 CRI). Also shows that a 5000K version of the Ecosmart 4" CR4 has been approved.

I found the directions and comments very important. I am planning on installing recessed lighting in my kitchen tomorrow. My kitchen is 12 feet long and 6 feet wide. The recessed lighting is going to replace two sections of fluorescent tube lights.

Thanks for all of this info. I'm undergoing light choices in new construction in CA (SF proper) and looking at the Ecosmart 4" (ECO4-575L-GU24), and looking for appropriate Title 24 cans online, or can @davidtay or @attofarad or anyone else suggest someone local to SF Bay? Thanks in advance.

jasoncjung -- it's probably easiest for you to get the lights at Home Depot. (The Ecosmart is the Home Depot version of the Cree CR4-575L-GU24).

You will need to buy the housing online because Home Depot doesn't sell it. The only Title 24 compliant, GU24 housing I found that fits this light is the Liton LH99RICA-LLF-GU24 (for remodel, there is another one to use for new construction), and the place I bought it online is alconlighting.

I ended up using mostly 6", but the 4" Elco EL99ICA-G24 cans were maybe about $!4 or so (cannot remember, been a while) at American Ace supply in San Jose. They had to order them. They are a "new construction" style.

I suggest that you have one in hand, along with the LED you plan to use, before ordering all of them.

Interesting that the updated Cree CR6 page linked to above now claims compatibility with some 5" housings - wonder if that's part of the reason behind the subtle design changes that lamp has gone through over the last year. Doesn't say which ones though.

I'm looking at a 4 pack of the 4" EcoSmart Cree lights on Home depots website...Are these the best quality cost effective LED lights I can get right now and the ones you're referring to for most of this thread? Our electric is being wired this week for our kitchen/fam rm dr remodel....is this what I should tell my contractor I want all throughout?

I read above someone doesn't want 2700...why is that, should I not get these??

In addition to this kit, (which comes to about $40 per light), what else needs to be purchased to install these...just a can & a dimmer? about how much more does that cost?

MY GC was charging us about $100 per recessed light (includes $50/labor & $50 for materials, and he was basing it on fluorescent not LED). He said LED would be much more expensive. But, I'm wondering... if these kits are only $40 each, how will the materials will cost that much more than the $50 standard lighting he was planning on...?

@homebuyer23 - yes those are the right ones. These lights come both with traditional Edison connectors (like regular light bulbs) and GU24 connectors (which are newer and mostly used if they are required by your city codes) -- make sure you get the right ones.

Home Depot doesn't sell a can that works with this light. You have to buy that separately, probably online. There are two kinds of cans -- "retrofit" and "new construction" -- and refer to the way they are installed in your ceiling. Your contractor will know which ones you need. There are threads that say what cans are compatible with this light but Cree doesn't make one (they do for 6"). The Cree spec says a compatible can needs to be at least 3.5" tall and between 3.9" and 4.1" in inner diameter. Generally you want a can that is ICAT(insulation contact airtight). The can should cost $10-15 each.

You should get a special LED or low-voltage dimmer. The link below shows a list of dimmers tested to be compatible with this light.

@homebuyer23 -- you should ask at the store. When I bought mine, I needed a GU24 4" can which they didn't sell (either at the store or online), and the salespeople kept trying to sell me a full kit (light, trim, and can) from a different company instead.

Most people use standard Edison connectors, but in some places (like where I live in CA) your city code might have more stringent energy compliance requirements, including using a GU24 connector.

Homebuyer23, I am the one that likes 2,950K light that Halogens produce. I feel 2,700K light is too yellow.

I held off doing my recessed lighting in the office hoping that CREE would come out with a 1,000 Lumen's 3,000K color temperature recessed light that is a retrofit but I see it has not. Reading all of the above and other posts from the prior year, I see that having a retrofit housing gives better light than a bulb as the spread is better and the heat in back of the lamp is not so trapped. Maybe I can live with the 2,700K and it is not as yellow and more of a whiter light than an incandescent bulb?

I like the Phillips bulbs higher lumen's over 1,000 but their CRI is 82 and I fear the light would be trapped so maybe I am better with the CREE LR6 retrofit in the 2,700K for my home office despite only 800 lumen's?

I can not take these torchiere lamps anymore as all of the CFL light is lighting up the ceiling and it is too dark on my desk.

I am doing my floors over due to water damage from the pipe on my water heater bursting (have now a new water heater and all new water lines and a new pressure regulator that had failed) so the furniture will be moved out of the room and I thought it was a good time to call the electrician I chose who I like except he is pushing me to go with halogen.

I LOVE the bright pretty light halogen bulbs give but it is hot in my kitchen from the hot lights if I am in there for any length of time so that would not be good for my home office. I need lights that will not get hot.

Cree lights @ 3000k, 3500k and 4000k light color are available today from retailers other than Home Depot. 800lumens is quite a bit of light from a CR6. The retrofit housing is just a can. The important components are in the lamp.

Davidtay, I did look at the link and try hard to find stores that have these bulbs but I could not. I will call Cree today and the phone number they give for Cree Sales Residential.

I just measured the room that needs recessed lights and without the two foyer areas and not counting the connecting dining room that has a half a wall high and a half a wall long separating the home office (which is the living room) my room is 17' 8" long X 12' 2" wide. My kitchen has 6 recessed light in there that are supposed to be 900 Lumen's and it is not bright enough for me unless I put the 7th light on the sink on and that room is 14' long X 10' wide. I think I may need more than 6 recessed lights? My kitchen lights have very pretty color (Halogen Reveal but I should have went with the GE Halogen bulbs as the radius of light is not that wide on my bulbs creating areas with no light. The ceilings are 8 feet in these rooms that I am putting the recessed lights in.

Maybe 800 Lumen's from a CR6 is better use of lumen's than the 900 lumen's from the Halogen bulb in my kitchen?

Maybe 2,700K LED is a whiter cleaner light than Incandescent bulbs that are too yellow to me?

I like the 90 CRI of the CREE. Philip's has LED bulbs with higher lumen's and more of the 3,000L I want but the CRI is 82 and they are bulbs they go in a can while I seem to like the one piece look of the CREE.

My post would not post and it kept saying it was saved so I tried three times and then it said it could not post as I already replied. I now see that my post is showing up three times! I hope two get deleted as I can't figure out how to do this. If they are not deleted. I will edit the prior two repeated posts to say less.

Thank you Davidtay for your advice and knowledge. I will go to the polar-ray.com site now to see what they have available. I really would like to get a cr6 and hope they have a 3,000K temperature available.

TCP PRO LED PAR38 - 17 Watt - 3,000K - 40 Degree : TCP LED17E26P3830KFL seems to have the temperature I want and is 1,050 Lumens and is on sale at $30.99. I prefer the CREE but the ones with the temperature not being 2,700K are over $100 and I still have to install the cans so I think if I go with this bulb, prices of the CREE will eventually go down and I can then replace my kitchen lights with the CREE. The Cree is more energy efficient and has a wider spread of light.

Is the TCP a decent bulb? If I put 6 - 9 of these in my office (not sure what I need yet), would this be good?