Hands on with Windows 8.1 Preview: Windows 8 done right

I don't get this obsession over the classic Start Menu. With 8.1, there's no functional difference between the Start Screen and the Menu. What do you need from the Menu that isn't offered by the Screen? What exactly is so holy about the old Menu? That it's not full screen? Well, it functionally is because removing focus from it closes it, so you can't interact with anything when it's open any way.

The functional difference is that the start screen steals the focus of my display, whereas the start menu does not. Some people will find this to be a trivial distinction, and others (like myself) consider it critical. I have a hard enough time staying on task as it is.

The start menu let me find what I want quickly, without obscuring whatever I was working on. It was very good at finding something, then going away. The Start Screen wants you to hang around.

Install Start8. Microsoft doesn't force anything on the desktop. They just ship it like they hope most will like it. The desktop is not a walled garden, you can change things.

Hmm, why did we have to depend on a third party program when MS could have just given us the users a choice?The fact that you have to change the desktop to suit you by using a third party program, is already sign of that MS did not anticipate the weakness of it's Metro approach.

Or MS did not anticipate the weakness of the start screen in Windows 7 and needed to change it in Windows 8.

This is a pretty unusual view of mine, and it seems Microsoft is with me on this, but I disagree. The menu-based shutdown (whichever OS you use) is useful for non-standard shutdowns (when, at some point, you want to shutdown as opposed to sleep), but for me, as long as you've set up Power Options so that your computer's physical power button does what you want it to do (something many users don't really need to bother with), it's a much more convenient method. And semantically, it's much more fitting considering that's what you used to turn on the computer. I also think it fits better with the many handheld devices like phones and tablets that have a "sleep" button, while turning off said devices -completely- involves some small usability complications, to ensure people don't shut down their phones just by tapping the wrong button.

It also helps that Windows has almost completely lost its dependency on daily restarts reminiscent of the 95/XP days ("It is now safe to shut off your computer."). I kind of wonder if a lot of users are just half-stuck in the old mindset of telling the software to shut down, instead of switching the hardware to "off" the way we do most of our other appliances.

Agreed. Since I switched all my PCs to SSD, I just tap the power button to turn them off completely. I don't need hibernate or sleep buttons. I close my laptop to put it into power saving. I just leave my home built desktop on until I'm done with what I'm doing. Sure, it takes an extra 2 seconds for Windows to load everything into RAM (and I recall reading something about how Windows intelligently caches things based on user behavior), but I don't care. I'm booted in under 10 seconds. The idea of digging through any menus to turn the thing off makes me want to groan due to excess tedium.

As a sidenote, I'm totally willing to upgrade my aforementioned desktop from Win7 to Win8 with these new changes. I'm kind of wishing I had snapped up those $40 upgrade licenses during the launch.

I just finished installing the Windows 8.1 Preview on Windows 8 Pro and haven't had a chance to poke around much, but I didn't particularly care for Microsoft trying to force me to tie my local account to a Microsoft account.

I found a solution via InfoWorld (which got theirs from FaiKee): unplug the network cable. If the installer can't reach the Internet, it leaves it at a local account.

We now return you to your regularly-scheduled debate, already in progress.

Install Start8. Microsoft doesn't force anything on the desktop. They just ship it like they hope most will like it. The desktop is not a walled garden, you can change things.

Hmm, why did we have to depend on a third party program when MS could have just given us the users a choice?The fact that you have to change the desktop to suit you by using a third party program, is already sign of that MS did not anticipate the weakness of it's Metro approach.

Why are you trying to force Microsoft to support deprecated software? The Start Screen is how it released Windows 8. If you don't like it, happily there are things you can do, like install Start8.

Took a day to get used to it, but once you're used to it it's not hard to use. The OS itself seems a bit faster than Win 7. I have not done or seen benchmarks so I don't know if that's the case or no.

I have a couple of users here in the office, as most of you do, who are the guinea pig users for how hard it's going to be to shepherd people through an OS change. They dealt with it OK. I think the update will help somewhat.

Now, I'm pointedly not addressing the wisdom of the UI change in the first place. I think that was beyond idiotic and completely unneeded and unnecessary.

That being said, it's not the disaster that it could have been, but it sure as hell wasn't needed. Users don't use phones or tablets in the same way as a desktop. Why try to make them?

With an external monitor and a keyboard, W8 tablets will increasingly be used as desktop PCs running traditional PC tasks. You need one OS with dual personalities to handle it properly. W8 addresses this very well. Hardware just needed to catch up and we are finally getting there with the new Intel chips.

The Start screen may be a "pleasing evolution" over the "old" 8 start screen, but it is still a confusing mess. A computer is a tool. It should be comfortable and easy to use so that I can do what needs to be done then shut down so you can get on with living.

I don't see how. It only has what you want on it, rather explicitly now. Windows Phone works this way and it's marvelous.

There are interfaces that are intuitive, and there are interfaces that you "get used to". Windows has always been in the later category. I use Windows at work and at home and I have never felt that it was something that anyone could just sit in front of and use without spending time with it.

You can now shutdown in less than 4 steps using something called a "Charm". Huge improvement.Judging by the list of Windows 8.1 improvements, Windows 8 is an absolute turd. No wonder despite what the MS faithful thought, firing Steven 'mini Jobs' Sinofsky was the right move.

Shutdown and associated commands should be root options in the start menu/screen. They should not be hackjobbed in as "charms" or behind other elements.

You can right click on the start corner now and get that admin context menu. It has shutdown options now, which it did not in Windows 8 RTM.

Another trick that is not well known unless you are a keyboard junkie like me, is that you can click on any blank area on your desktop, or any blank area on the taskbar (basically you need to have the desktop be the focused window, not any other window that might be open) and you do an ALT+F4 (the traditional keyboard command to close a window) you will get a shutdown dialog that you probably have never seen before in Windows 8. (side note, this also works in Windows 7, and probably all versions of Windows).

I actually wrote an app that is called ClassicShutdown that you can pin to your taskbar and all it does is make an API call to set the desktop as the focused window, and then it sends ALT+F4 keyboard command to the desktop. If this is something you would be interested in, let me know and I can get it to you (compiled or .NET source code).

There are interfaces that are intuitive, and there are interfaces that you "get used to". Windows has always been in the later category. I use Windows at work and at home and I have never felt that it was something that anyone could just sit in front of and use without spending time with it.

Is there a UI for something as complex as a full modern computer, with as many features as Windows, that DOES have an intuitive UI? Genuine question. OSX and Linux don't work all that much better. Each are something you have to toy around with if you're doing something more complicated than opening the browser.

I would say there is a pretty huge new difference now, in that newly installed apps don't appear in the Start screen at all. You have to discover the All Apps screen (which is slightly easier than it was before) and find them there.

Is this really the case? Every application I have installed is automatically pinned to my start screen at the far right. It only becomes a problem if you unpin it and need to find it again.

It's one of the changes noted in the article:

"That's no longer the case in 8.1. Install a new app and its icon will be stuck in All Apps view. It will only appear on the Start screen itself if you explicitly pin it."

[quote="Just a heads-up:There is excellent keyboard support in the windows 8 start-screen:just press the windows button,then the first letter of what you want to launch (add a few if the list is still too large) and you can navigate with the cursor keys, press enter to select your application.Well, you can always naviagate with the cursor keys, but this is real quick.It's worked the same as the windows 7 and vista search field in the old start menu.

To launch notepad, for instance, I press:StartnEnter

That's, super quick. (operation may change if you have an app that starts with an N and comes before notepad)

I hate to tell you, but that's been true since Vista. Now try doing the same thing, but instead try and access something in the control panel, such as programs and features.

Install Start8. Microsoft doesn't force anything on the desktop. They just ship it like they hope most will like it. The desktop is not a walled garden, you can change things.

Hmm, why did we have to depend on a third party program when MS could have just given us the users a choice?The fact that you have to change the desktop to suit you by using a third party program, is already sign of that MS did not anticipate the weakness of it's Metro approach.

Why are you trying to force Microsoft to support deprecated software? The Start Screen is how it released Windows 8. If you don't like it, happily there are things you can do, like install Start8.

There is real value in consistency, even if it's an "advanced option" to re-enable the classic start menu. Some of us have grown accustomed to it over the last 18 years

Bullshit, the "Classic Start Menu" is this:

Which was removed already, in Windows 7, also to much wailing and gnashing of teeth. Yet somehow, that Start Menu is now "the one true start menu" even though it's only been around since Vista, which means at best you've been using the following stat menu and its workflow for 6 years, and far more likely only 3-4, with Windows 7:

So don't give me that "consistency" stuff, the Start Menu as you think of it is far newer than your "18 year workflow", and you've already adapted to numerous major changes to it throughout the years.

And if you remember the Classic start menu, if you had any real volume of programs installed, it really was a full-screen app, as the menus would cover your entire monitor.

And the same reason the classic start menu was terrible is the same reason the new start screen is terrible.If I wanted to have to drop out of what I was doing and peruse a screen full of icons to get to the program I wanted, I would litter my desktop with shortcuts like other dumbasses.

My big problem with the Modern UI is that it's full screen. I work on 27 inch 2560x1440 monitors. I don't read my mail in a full screen window, I don't browse the web in a full screen window. Typing this in chrome right now, and its taking up about 1/3 of my screen.

Modern needs to be a resizable window to make using it on a desktop not feel so off putting.

Looking forward to 8.1, but sticking with Start 8 and a Win 7 experience.

[quote="Just a heads-up:There is excellent keyboard support in the windows 8 start-screen:just press the windows button,then the first letter of what you want to launch (add a few if the list is still too large) and you can navigate with the cursor keys, press enter to select your application.Well, you can always naviagate with the cursor keys, but this is real quick.It's worked the same as the windows 7 and vista search field in the old start menu.

To launch notepad, for instance, I press:StartnEnter

That's, super quick. (operation may change if you have an app that starts with an N and comes before notepad)

I hate to tell you, but that's been true since Vista. Now try doing the same thing, but instead try and access something in the control panel, such as programs and features.

...Which 8.1 fixes. I get the impression most of the people complaining didn't read the article.

[quote="Just a heads-up:There is excellent keyboard support in the windows 8 start-screen:just press the windows button,then the first letter of what you want to launch (add a few if the list is still too large) and you can navigate with the cursor keys, press enter to select your application.Well, you can always naviagate with the cursor keys, but this is real quick.It's worked the same as the windows 7 and vista search field in the old start menu.

To launch notepad, for instance, I press:StartnEnter

That's, super quick. (operation may change if you have an app that starts with an N and comes before notepad)

I hate to tell you, but that's been true since Vista. Now try doing the same thing, but instead try and access something in the control panel, such as programs and features.

And that's why I mentioned that already. If you want to search in the control panel, just swith out "start button" with "start + w" button.Or, if you're more mousey, press the start button, begin typing, and flip over to settings on the right.

There are interfaces that are intuitive, and there are interfaces that you "get used to". Windows has always been in the later category. I use Windows at work and at home and I have never felt that it was something that anyone could just sit in front of and use without spending time with it.

Is there a UI for something as complex as a full modern computer, with as many features as Windows, that DOES have an intuitive UI? Genuine question. OSX and Linux don't work all that much better. Each are something you have to toy around with if you're doing something more complicated than opening the browser.

There have certainly been endless attempts to do this. I've toyed around with OSX and Linux in various forms and I've not come across something yet that reads my mind. I have to say the first time I saw Win 8 I laughed. I had someone come into my office and ask how he could shut his Windows 8 machine at home off. He's been unplugging it because he couldn't figure out how to do it.

You can right click on the start corner now and get that admin context menu. It has shutdown options now, which it did not in Windows 8 RTM.

etc.

As much as I appreciate the shortcut goodies that various users throw out on these threads, commands and chords like "Alt-Ctrl R + F" are not discoverable for the typical user, nor memorable. Yet many users know things like Ctrl-C and Ctrl-X, because once upon a time they were right there in the menu next to the command until people learned them.

(That and a plethora of keyboard template thingies people used to buy.)

If the goal is easier to use, hiding features behind arcane keyboard commands and gestures and hovering your mouse over special spots isn't the way to go.

... for you. To call the classic start menu which covers maybe 10% of the screen "functionally full-screen" is drivel.

There is real value in consistency, even if it's an "advanced option" to re-enable the classic start menu. Some of us have grown accustomed to it over the last 18 years.

My biggest problem with the start screen is keyboard support. I choose items from lists using the keyboard instead of the mouse, which I can do very quickly with a short list of text items that are easy to scan. I can't do the same thing with big blocky icons and large text.

You don't have to accept my reasons for "obsessing" over the classic start -- there are plenty of others. I've found a simple, 3rd-party solution and it's not a problem anymore. Just try not to spout ignorance and single-mindedness as some kind of high ground.

If you scroll to start specific apps and habitually use the keyboard to do so, why not search by name? It would be faster than scrolling around.

The "classic" Start can turn into a full-screen nightmare on XP and Win2k systems. Specially after a system has years under its belt. Which is why I do not mind the scroll bar on Win7 Start menu.

Win8's start, I mean, modern interface annoyed me at first, until I realized it is just a full screen start. MS problem is that they did not ship a fully polished UI. It needs work to make it more useful. Win8.1 seems a good start. I like what I have seen so far. It is so unlike MS to update their OS for anything but security/bug patches. Hopefully it becomes the norm. I am looking forward to further refinements of the new UI.

Perhaps one way to soften the transition to the new app menu would be to offer even more flexibility in viewing and ordering the tiles. A list and detailed views in addition to the current modes would be a great start (pun intended) to please some pundits.

I've been using Windows 8 for a while now. I run it in a VM on my Macbook for developing with Visual Studio and I use it on two personal desktops at home. I know the metro interface is a really huge deal for some people. I have to say that I really don't notice this as a problem. All frequently used apps are pinned to my taskbar on the desktop, and if I need something that I don't use a lot, I just jam the windows key and spend upwards of 10 seconds maximum to find what I need and get out of there (sometimes when you search, it can be a little slow to switch to something like Settings search.)

I think Windows 8 is the best version of Windows, and I wouldn't ever go back if I didn't have to. I think it's really disappointing to see everyone treating it like Vista, because I really think extended use could change a lot of opinions. It is weird at first, but I am definitely accustomed to it by now. With all of this said, I did like Vista anyway, and I never really had a problem with it, so maybe I'm just insane. I like a lot of operating systems though.

With desktops like Gnome 3 and Unity in Ubuntu, along with the gearing up of Launch Pad in OS X, I really think Microsoft is getting a largely unfair amount of bad publicity over the Start Screen. People are allowed their preference though, but I have to tell you I haven't regretted anything about Windows 8. Metro is one toke over the line, but other than the Start Screen I see it so little it's easy to forget what everyone is up in arms about.

I will receive Windows 8.1 with open arms, it sounds like a good update.

This look like more Metro-ization of the Desktop, which is not what I would call Windows 8 done right.

Windows 8 done right would be: Having the exact same Windows 7 UI (complete with start menu, shaded themes), that I have to today for the desktop, with optional Metro Tile UI, if and only if, I explicitly call it up.

That would cause no Harm for using Window 8 on tablets, and it would alienate no desktop users. It seems like the obvious solution.

My big problem with the Modern UI is that it's full screen. I work on 27 inch 2560x1440 monitors. I don't read my mail in a full screen window, I don't browse the web in a full screen window. Typing this in chrome right now, and its taking up about 1/3 of my screen.

Modern needs to be a resizable window to make using it on a desktop not feel so off putting.

Looking forward to 8.1, but sticking with Start 8 and a Win 7 experience.

Posted this on another thread, but it may be helpful here. Stardock (the guys who make Start8) have an app called ModernMix that basically lets you run Metro apps in resizable windows on the desktop. You can also easily pin the apps to the taskbar. It's not free (costs $5), but seems to work with vast majority of apps I've tried. And to head of inevitable criticisms, yes... I agree that this should be stock on Windows 8/.1. Unfortunately it's not, but this is a nice solution if you want the under-the-hood benefits of Win8 combined with the work environment of Win7.

This look like more Metro-ization of the Desktop, which is not what I would call Windows 8 done right.

Windows 8 done right would be: Having the exact same Windows 7 UI (complete with start menu, shaded themes), that I have to today for the desktop, with optional Metro Tile UI, if and only if, I explicitly call it up.

That would cause no Harm for using Window 8 on tablets, and it would alienate no desktop users. It seems like the obvious solution.

That would be Windows 8 done right.

That's how it is currently, with the one exception of the start menu being full-screen now.

Why are so many people campaigning for features that are already implemented?

Is the "Metro/Modern/Windows Store" environment still a walled garden, or is it possible to distribute software written for it via other means without having to jump through ridiculous hoops on both ends?

For me, the fact that the start menu isn't full screen is a much bigger deal than it is for you. it does steal APPLICATION focus, but I can keep an eye on things in the background while launching something else. I can keep watching that youtube video on the right and immediately snap the new program I launched to the left. I can follow the flow of an IRC Chatroom while pulling up another program, I don't lose sight of what I was doing, so my thought process isn't interrupted by a fullscreen takeover.

There's nothing so important on the desktop that ~2 seconds in the Start Screen is going to ruin.

My big problem with the Modern UI is that it's full screen. I work on 27 inch 2560x1440 monitors. I don't read my mail in a full screen window, I don't browse the web in a full screen window. Typing this in chrome right now, and its taking up about 1/3 of my screen.

Modern needs to be a resizable window to make using it on a desktop not feel so off putting.

Looking forward to 8.1, but sticking with Start 8 and a Win 7 experience.

Nobody (even MS) is expecting you to use the Metro full screen apps on your 27" monitor on regular basis except for maybe Neflix and a few other apps that make sense.

Hmm, why did we have to depend on a third party program when MS could have just given us the users a choice?

Windows comes with a web browser, e-mail program, media player, and picture viewer/image editor (Internet Explorer, Windows Mail, Windows Media Player, and Paint, respectively). Most people I know prefer not to use them and instead use Firefox/Chrome, Thunderbird/Gmail, Winamp/Foobar/iTunes, just about any other image editing program. You don't have to have any of those third party programs, and Windows will run just fine.

Microsoft has included the Start Screen as a method to organize and execute programs, and third party developers have created an alternative if someone chooses to not use the Microsoft default. Personally, I don't think the Start Screen is bad at all - in fact, I think it's an improvement over the old Start Menu - but it's good to know that Windows is open enough to allow third party applications to change the UI.

Preface: I'm new to Windows 8 on a main system but not entirely new to Windows 8 overall. I've used it in VMs and came to the conclusion that it was neither as good nor as bad as people were saying, much like I found Vista. But as I was building a new Haswell system anyway, I decided to try it out to get the best support for the new tech. And as I mentioned earlier, I went ahead and installed Windows 8.1 as soon as it came out (about 25 minutes total to install and configure), in part because I wanted to see what Microsoft had done before I installed my own Start menu replacement.

Anyway, I'm not sure if this was in Windows 8, but I started playing with Windows key combinations today and found Win+X pops up a very classic-looking menu with shortcuts to a number of settings, including a shutdown menu. It's sluggish in bringing up some of the items, but it does work to get a shutdown or restart using just the keyboard.

That's how it is currently, with the one exception of the start menu being full-screen now.

Why are so many people campaigning for features that are already implemented?

In all honestly? Because the majority of those people can't bother themselves to look and learn. They take one look, see it is different and label it a failure on the spot without taking the time to learn the features.

There is just a type of person that completely dislikes change. Anything deviating from their perceived norm logically has to be a mistake of nature.

Granted, this is not every user that dislikes the new UI but it seems to be a fairly vocal number of people.

I don't get this obsession over the classic Start Menu. With 8.1, there's no functional difference between the Start Screen and the Menu. What do you need from the Menu that isn't offered by the Screen? What exactly is so holy about the old Menu? That it's not full screen? Well, it functionally is because removing focus from it closes it, so you can't interact with anything when it's open any way.

For me, the fact that the start menu isn't full screen is a much bigger deal than it is for you. it does steal APPLICATION focus, but I can keep an eye on things in the background while launching something else. I can keep watching that youtube video on the right and immediately snap the new program I launched to the left. I can follow the flow of an IRC Chatroom while pulling up another program, I don't lose sight of what I was doing, so my thought process isn't interrupted by a fullscreen takeover.

I dislike the start screen for the same reasons I dislike a full-screen advertisement popping up over a webpage I was viewing. it gets in the way of MY Workflow.

totally. i'm getting right fed up with people telling me to "get used to it." i have things to do, and it's not my job to learn a new set of dog tricks

Actually, if you're a tech worker, your job is CONSTANTLY having to learn a new set of tricks. Bitching about things changing just makes you seem like an old curmudgeon who doesn't want to learn anything new. And that means you're in the wrong line of work.

Quote:

it doesn't even feel like the changes are to my benefit: i'll take live tiles on a phone, but no way do i want them on a desktop. i check facebook maybe twice a month, and i'd rather not be reminded of the stupid site otherwise.

Is the "Metro/Modern/Windows Store" environment still a walled garden, or is it possible to distribute software written for it via other means without having to jump through ridiculous hoops on both ends?

Windows 8 has three ways to install things.

Desktop: Just like all previous versions of Windows, download and go.

Windows Store: For Metro apps, this is how most people will get them.

Enterprise Store: MS has set up a Metro store for Enterprise that each business can privately deploy. Very similar to the SharePoint app deployment you could do in previous versions of Windows, but for Metro apps.

So for Metro, the Windows store is the one-true way to get apps for home users.