Where's the beef?

Discuss the Questions

Here are the questions our panel faced this week. Tell us what your answer would be or what you think our panellists need to say.

MINOR PARTIES

Brett Andreassen asked: The last few years has seen the emergence of minor parties having a stronger influence in the shaping of the government. Minor parties are emerging at state and federal levels, like the Katter’s Australia Party and Palmer’s United Party. With the potential obliteration of the Labor Party, can you see Australian politics becoming a parliament full of coalitions of minor parties, similar to that of Europe, rather than the two party system that we have always had?What do you think?

PALMER & SLIPPER

Kelly Butterworth asked: After changing the name of your party to the Palmer United Party only three weeks after the original announcement and also rejecting Peter Slipper only five hours after his involvement was announced, do you think the Australian public will have confidence in the party?What do you think?

BREAKING NEWS

Tony Jones asked: We’ve just had news that the Australian Electoral Commission has turned down your party registration because you didn’t fill in your application correctly. Is your party in danger of being stillborn?What do you think?

REFORM AND TOUGH DECISIONS

Sean Barry asked: Treasury secretary Martin Parkinson says we must push ahead with pro-market economic reforms. Why are our politicians not capable of making the difficult decisions now? Why have we lost our nerve to tell people that our taxes need to rise, or services will have to be cut? Have we simply become too "comfortable and relaxed", obsessed by monthly interest rate movements, negative gearing, our McMansions and so on? Are we skipping now and risking the future of generations to come?What do you think?

UNEMPLOYMENT

Jacob Rowan asked: I proudly come from Woodridge, in Logan City, where the unemployment rate is 18% – about three times the state’s average. Having recently myself been unemployed and having lived on Newstart Allowance for the first time, I’ve experienced firsthand the difficulty of surviving on such a small amount of money. After the State Government’s axing of the Skilling Queenslanders for work program, funding cuts to Queensland TAFEs and flat lining employment growth in QLD, what would members of the panel do to help empower Queenslanders from low socio-economic areas, such as Woodridge, to find meaningful, long term employment?What do you think?

HEALTH CUTS

X asked: As a Registered Nurse and a mother of a child who was diagnosed with childhood cancer I feel I have seen QLD health from both sides of the fence. We, the QLD public were reassured that the front line health services would not be affected by the cutbacks. Now as an oncology nurse giving Chemotherapy to patients, we are seeing services being reduced. Front line staff are stretched to breaking point. Is it going to take a catastrophe before the Government sees the importance of quality healthcare for everyone?What do you think?

LABOR CUTS

Ben Riley asked: Last week, Wayne Swan and the Labor Party announced they would be cutting roughly $600m out of the public service, on top of other cuts such as the $2.8 billion from higher education. Will you and the ACTU run a campaign against the Labor party with equal ferocity to the one you ran against the LNP?What do you think?

A QUESTION FROM THE FLOOR

A questioner from the floor asked: What’s the point of adding extra funding to government departments when they have no staff to deliver the services? Isn’t it true that by December this year as a result of the Commission of Audit report you’re going to sack thousands of more Queenslanders?What do you think?

CATTLE CRISIS

Nikki Nucifora asked: Two years after the full live export ban, exports in cattle are only at 25% of their original quantity. As a result cattle graziers are faced with huge debt & excess livestock that can't be sold and must be put down. As Mr Katter has illustrated in recent debates there are alarming rates of suicide in rural farmers as their products decline in the market. The Labor Governments response to the mistreatment of cattle only took a few short weeks from the time it was seen on Four Corners to see a full live export ban. However, the response to financially stressed Australian people who are at higher risk of mental illness has not been done with such urgency or compassion. Does the panel think that the mental health of these cattle farmers should be of equal or greater concern of the Labour government and how do they suggest we balance the welfare of animals and the welfare of humans on issues like this in the future?What do you think?

GONSKI

Divyasree Harikrishnan asked: As students, my friends and I often discuss the prospect of the Queensland government signing up for the Gonski education reforms. In the past week, reports based on a closer look at the Queensland Studies Authority data show that lesser advantaged schools in Queensland are facing a staggeringly low number of students entering university - some none at all – with numbers as low as a third of a school’s students completing Year 12. With these recent reports and figures, is the government’s choice to not subscribe to the new education plan the best decision for the betterment of students in the less privileged parts of the state?What do you think?

POLITICS, COAL & ENVIRONMENT

Emilie Bertsch asked: Clive Palmer, your Waratah coal company’s project, ‘China First’ is expected to demolish 8000 hectares of the Bimblebox Nature Refuge, a bioregion made up of complex ecosystems. What is your outlook on Australia’s future environmental status if we ignore the need to conserve bioregions like Bimblebox, and wring dry our natural resources?What do you think?

KATTER,PALMER & SELF DOUBT

Neal O’Connor asked: Last week on Q&A our Prime Minister admitted to moments of self doubt - my question is do Mr Palmer or Mr Katter ever have moments of self doubt?What do you think?

TONY JONES: Good evening and welcome to Q&A live from the ABC studios in Southbank, Brisbane. I'm Tony Jones and answering your questions tonight: long-serving Queensland MP Bob Katter, who is leading Katter's Australian Party to the Federal election; the President of the Australian Council of Trade Unions Ged Kearney; Queensland Treasurer Tim Nicholls; Mining magnate Clive Palmer, who has just launched Palmer's United Party in the hope of becoming Australia’s next Prime Minister; and Greens Senator Larissa Waters. Please welcome our guests. Thank you. And as usual we’re being simulcast on ABC News 24, News Radio and you can join the Twitter conversation with the #qanda hash tag. Well, our first question tonight comes from Brett Andreassen.

MINOR PARTIES

BRETT ANDREASSEN: The last few years has seen the emergence of minor parties having a stronger influence in the shaping of the government. Minor parties are emerging at State and Federal levels, like the Katter's Australia Party and the Palmer United Party. With the potential obliteration of the Labor Party, can you see Australian politics becoming a Parliament full of coalitions of minor parties similar to that Europe rather than the two-party system we've always had?

TONY JONES: Bob Katter, let's start with you?

BOB KATTER: The only country that I can think of on earth that has the two party system, except for America, which has a constituency system which is completely different from the rest of the world, is Australia and I think that Clive and I are going to ensure that no longer that situation is going to continue. You can see how successful we have been with Woolworths and Coles owning all the retailing in Australia. Well, that's what you’re seeing in the political firmament out there and, quite frankly, as far as I'm concerned, the ALP/LNP corporation that runs Australia - I can't see any difference in their policies.

TONY JONES: Bob, the big difference to Europe is that we have preferential voting here, which means essentially if you direct your preferences to Tony Abbott, it will be as if there is one party really. Are you going to direct your preferences to the Coalition?

BOB KATTER: We will be deciding on the basis of seat by seat and we’ll be deciding on a basis of state by state. But anyone thinks that we’re there to jump when the Liberal Party cracks the whip, you are making one hell of a big mistake there. We have close relationships with a number of trade unions. We are very proud of that. Very proud of that.

TONY JONES: Clive Palmer?

CLIVE PALMER: Well, I don't know about minor parties. We don’t – we are not aiming to be a minor party, Tony. Bob may have those aspirations but we have got an aspiration much higher than that because we think the whole place is a bit corrupt, with Julia Gillard and Tony Abbott really the same thing. They are pretty boring. You’d never have them on Q&A together because you wouldn't have much of a show. You know, so...

TONY JONES: Well, we would have them on if they'd come on.

CLIVE PALMER: Yeah. Well, that’s right. You know, if you are satisfied, if you are happy that everything that’s being done now is enough for you and your family, it is sufficient, you should vote again for Tony Gillard and Julia Abbott. But if you agree, like I do, that this nation can do more, you should vote for our party because it is time for a change.

TONY JONES: Okay. But it’s hard to imagine that you wouldn't send your preferences in a conservative direction so essentially will most of your preferences end up going to Tony Abbott anyway and therefore propping up his vote.

CLIVE PALMER: Well, I don't think our preferences will be distributed, Tony. I mean, we hope to get a lot of preferences from Tony Abbott but we’ll accept his preferences gratefully but we’ve had a million hits on our website in two weeks. We’ve got thousands of members across Australia. We’ve got a whole team of candidates that are going to stand in this next Federal election because we think it’s wrong that politicians should say that Australians vote a mortgage forever to them. It’s not a question of Tony Abbott’s votes or Julia Gillard's votes, it is a question of the Australian people.

TONY JONES: Will you be doing preference deals though? Will you be doing any deals?

CLIVE PALMER: We won't be doing any deals with anyone, Tony. We will be doing deals for the Australian people.

TONY JONES: Ged Kearney, what do you think about this scenario?

GED KEARNEY: What do I think about this?

TONY JONES: And particularly the central part of that question, which is about the obliteration of the Labor Party?

GED KEARNEY: I think we’re a long way from seeing the demise of the two main parties in this country but when I think about this, I try to think about what my members would be thinking about this question and, quite frankly, I don't think they make a conscious decision about whether or not there should be more parties or less. What they want to see is decent policies. That want to see that people are actually going to deliver for them with the parties. So all due – you know, I was talking to Clive. I have offered my assistances to you, Clive, to help you with your industrial relations policy. Very, very happy to do that.

CLIVE PALMER: Yeah, thanks. Thanks very much. We’ll certainly take you up with that.

GED KEARNEY: So, Clive, I reserve my decision until I start to see some policies come out of the pup.

TONY JONES: I can just see you sitting down together nutting out industrial relations. That’s going to work really well.

CLIVE PALMER: Well, we are, Tony - 90% of all issues all Australians agree on but we spend our time arguing about the things we don't agree on and we lose our opportunity. We lose the chance to make jobs for our people and extend our wealth. Let’s concentrate on the things we do agree on, make this country what it could be and the things we don't agree on might just disappear with the success we can all do working together.

TONY JONES: Okay, Tim Nicholls, I’ll bring you in ext but we’ve got a hand up in the audience there. We’ll quickly go to that young man there. Go ahead.

AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hi there. I am wondering why we can't have a serious discussion about the voting system we have, particularly in this State, where the LNP won 50% of the primary vote but won 85% of the seats? Why can't we be like New Zealand or Germany and adopt mixed member proportional representation, which leaves you with both the constituent local member ...

TONY JONES: Okay. All right. Okay. What we’ll do is we’ll take that as a comment because I think it’s worth coming back to the question originally asked. You can add into your answer whether that sort of proportional representation would work here. I imagine you will say it wouldn't.

TIM NICHOLLS: Tony, a couple of things. Firstly, in terms of other parties, I mean Australia has a rich tradition of new parties being formed and coming on. We’ve had the Democratic Labor Party, we’ve had the Australia Party, we’ve had the Australian Democrats. The party I am a member of and Clive used to be a member of, the Liberal National Party, is an amalgam. It’s a new party. So the idea that there’s a lock on parties by any one particular group, I think, is something that’s fostered by those people who want to run an agenda but is actually not borne out by the history and it’s not borne out by the way people behave so I think when you look at Australia's democratic history and you look at the parties that have been formed and get registered, there is a wide range of them that have been formed. Here in Queensland in the last five years there’s been a plethora of them. We’ve had the Queensland Party, a fellow who now works for Bob. We’ve had Clive. We’ve had the KAP, the...

TONY JONES: And we had the – we had the Joh's Nationals and the Joh for Canberra push.

TIM NICHOLLS: We had Joh for Canberra thing.

TONY JONES: Which had a tremendous impact on John Howard's election.

TIM NICHOLLS: On John Howard in ’87.

TONY JONES: In ’87.

TIM NICHOLLS: So by every stretch...

TONY JONES: Could that happen again?

TIM NICHOLLS: Well, by every stretch, Queensland has a democratic history where parties come, people have their opportunity to vote for them and no single party has a lock on it. But ultimately a party has to form a government. They have to behave like grownups and deliver outcomes for people across a broad range of spectrums and in Queensland, you’re talking from Currumbin to the Cape and you’re talking from Brisbane to Bedourie and that’s the important thing. A government needs to be formed that is mature, that is sensible and delivers policy outcomes across a whole range of issues and that should be the consideration that I think people have.

TONY JONES: Okay. Let’s hear from – let’s hear from the Greens. Are you replacing at least a section of the Labor Party with your vote?

LARISSA WATERS: Well, look, Tony, I think certainly there’s a lot of people who are discontent with both of the old parties and as I think a few of the other panellists have already mentioned, they’re seeing limited difference between the two of them. And when you have a majority of people that are agreeing with Greens on issues like coal seam gas and the need to protect our farmland from it, on the need to stop turning the reef into a highway for coal and gas export – and I might take that up with Clive a little bit later on – then I think clearly you are seeing that the old parties aren't really representing the majority of Australian values anymore, which is why I think it’s a shame in Queensland that we abolished our Upper House in 1926 and since then it has been a bit tricky for the smaller parties to get a toehold in the Queensland Parliament. But just on the minor parties, Tony, we certainly have a mining party here so, you know, let's go.

KELLY BUTTERWORTH: Mr Palmer, after changing the name of your party from the Palmer United Party only three weeks after the original announcement and also rejecting Peter Slipper only five hours after his involvement was announced, do you think the Australian public will have confidence in the Party?

CLIVE PALMER: Well, I should just explain with Peter Slipper, if you haven't got a criminal conviction and you’re not a member of another party, all Australians can join any party that they choose to join. It is not something you can stop someone doing or you risk running against the Antidiscrimination Act. So that was totally out of our control. But when you do join a party, you are subject to its Constitution and our members met and decided that Mr Slipper wasn't in the best interests of the party and terminated his membership so...

TONY JONES: So you only let him join so you could get rid of him?

CLIVE PALMER: I would say that's the case, yeah.

BREAKING NEWS

TONY JONES: I am going to interrupt you because we’ve actually just received some news and the news is the Australian Electoral Commission has turned down your party registration today, Clive, because you didn't fill in your application correctly. Is your party in danger of being stillborn?

CLIVE PALMER: Well, of course, what happened today was we submitted our application with 700 members, which was more than 500, and the AEC said they’d only take an application with 500 members when the Act says that you’ve got to prove you’ve got at least 500 members. So we would rather have submitted thousands of members but they wouldn't accept them so we had to resubmit it with 500 members (indistinct).

TONY JONES: Have you got time to do that before the deadline?

CLIVE PALMER: Well, we’ve done that today. No, we’ve done it.

TONY JONES: So you’ve already done that today?

CLIVE PALMER: We’ve already done that today but my point was that if you’ve got more members, you should be allowed to submit the whole lot because it gives - it doesn't matter whether you are left or right or Greens or whatever. We’ve got a democracy in Australia and the AEC has been set up to limit the competition in this country. Politicians talk about competition but they don't want competition among themselves and, you know, governments may come and go but ideas go on forever and what we’ve got to think about in this country really is that everyone should have the right. We’ve got a great diversity of ethnicity in this country and everyone should have a right to put their view. The AEC stands as a barrier...

TONY JONES: Except Peter Slipper evidently.

CLIVE PALMER: Well, he had the right.

TONY JONES: But can I quickly ask – quickly ask Bob Katter, I mean, would you accept Peter Slipper into your party?

BOB KATTER: No. We have a very rigid and, you know, there’s going to be problems. People slip through. But we have a rigid process because we have had problems and we want to look at every application and we can't go through them with a fine tooth comb but – but, you know, I dare say that wouldn't have occurred in our party and I don't want to be scoring off Clive on this one but I do want to say...

TONY JONES: The quick question – the quick question I put to you though...

BOB KATTER: No. No. No. Just hold on.

TONY JONES: The quick question I put to you was would Peter Slipper be welcome in your party?

BOB KATTER: No, I’m saying no and we’ve said that on many occasions previously, Tony.

TONY JONES: Okay. All right. Okay.

BOB KATTER: I wasn’t dismissing it. No, Clive said we’re not, you know, aspiring to be the government of Australia. I can tell you we are very aspirational but we’ve not – we’re also humble.

TONY JONES: Okay. All right. Let’s go to our - thank you for that. I think that's a first. Let's go to our next question from Sean Barry.

REFORM AND TOUGH DECISIONS

SEAN BARRY: Good evening. The Treasury Secretary, Martin Parkinson, says we must push ahead with pro-market economic reforms in Australia. Why are our politicians not capable of making the difficult decisions that need to be made right now? Why have we lost our nerve that we had perhaps back in the ‘80s and early ‘90s to make the economic reforms that are possible? Have we become too relaxed and comfortable? The tax changes that need to be made, perhaps removing negative gearing - there’s a popular one - and so forth need to be done. Are we squibbing now and risking the future of generations to come?

TONY JONES: Let’s start with Ged Kearney?

BOB KATTER: Sorry, Bob.

TONY JONES: Go, Ged.

GED KEARNEY: Thanks. Look, I think there is a problem with short-termism in this country and certainly decisions are often made, it seems, on the basis of populist opinion. But I think it’s unfair to say that no brave decisions have been made. You know, I think we are, at the moment, facing a very huge reform, looking at the National Disability Insurance Scheme, which is a significant piece of social infrastructure. We have some significant reforms around our education sector coming through now. We have a very significant industry plan that is looking to protect manufacturing in the face of a high Aussie dollar, we have got to do something, you know, for the post mining boom. So, you know, there have been some, I think, some significant reforms but of course, you know, there are other areas where I think we could do a lot better. But I do think on the one hand, yes, short-termism is a problem but on the other hand there have been some major reforms that are long-term and lasting.

BOB KATTER: Tony, I must say this: you know, the question was a very good question but you must understand that you live in a country that can't produce an electric motor, a tyre and within nine years will not produce a motor car. Within three years – and here’s the figures, I always bring them with me because people don't believe me – within three years if you want to use different - eight years, this country will be an importer of food. It will not be able to feed itself. Now, is there any long-term planning here? Is there any long-term commitment to policies that will enable us to produce enough food for us to stay alive in this country or we have to buy it from overseas? I mean almost everything in this country is foreign owned as well.

TONY JONES: Bob, I think, to be honest, Bob, I’m going to – Bob, I’m going to interrupt you there...

BOB KATTER: I mean we do need, Tony...

TONY JONES: ...because I know for sure there are questions on that subject coming up later. But...

BOB KATTER: Right. But the answers...

TONY JONES: Okay briefly.

BOB KATTER: ...there and the policies are there.

TONY JONES: Okay.

BOB KATTER: And we most certainly believe that we have them. Very good question.

CLIVE PALMER: Good question.

TONY JONES: Tim Nicholls?

TIM NICHOLLS: Yeah, Sean, I think that there has been a tapering off of desire for people to see reform in the economy. I think that has been the case. Here in Queensland, where we are endeavouring to do that through implementation of reviews and changes, to drive improvements in productivity, there has been a reluctance in the past for the difficult decisions to be made but this Government has been about making those decisions...

BOB KATTER: Is that privatisation, Tim?

TIM NICHOLLS: Well, that’s about – it’s about driving – it’s about driving productivity reform because what we’ve seen over the last decade is that the productive capacity in Queensland is less than it was a decade ago. So we can’t continue to deliver the services...

BOB KATTER: The State has had negative growth in the last year, Tim.

TIM NICHOLLS: Well, in fact – well, Bob...

CLIVE PALMER: Hear, hear.

TIM NICHOLLS: Well, Bob, that would be good if it wasn't, in fact, false, what you are saying. The State has had growth of 3.5% in the last 12 months and whilst it may suit you to say that, in fact it’s not the reality. It’s not true and it’s not borne out...

BOB KATTER: Well, it depends upon what point of time you want to use, Tim and you’re using one very favourable to you, clearly.

TIM NICHOLLS: I use the point of time of the 12 months we’re currently in, Bob, because that's the reality we live in.

TONY JONES: I’m just going to...

TIM NICHOLLS: It is not a 1950s dream world. It’s the world that we live.

TONY JONES: I’m going to put this part of the debate on pause because we’ve got a couple of questions coming up on that. I just want to hear the other two panellists on the question that was asked. Clive Palmer, and on the – I guess it’s about whether or not there still is the will to do major economic reforms in this country?

CLIVE PALMER: Well, the top six ministers in the Australian government have got 183 years of service and only 13 years of those 183 years were in the private sector and 11 of those years were in trade unions and lawyers. Who knows what we get with lawyers. That leaves two years. So why have you got people that couldn't run a tuck shop running the country?

TONY JONES: Larissa Waters.

LARISSA WATERS: Sean, I think your point is a really good one and, sadly, I think you are right. I think unfortunately our politicians seem to have lost their bravery and I wish they hadn't and, you know, it is hard being the public face and speaking for your party but I think if you don't stand up for what you believe in then, you know, do a different job and I think probably the best example of that was with the mining tax when we saw the Prime Minister was saying everything was on the table to fund the National Disability Insurance Scheme, which the Greens support and we are really pleased that finally we’re going to deliver that - everything was on the table except the mining tax and fixing up the loopholes which mean that the big miners – and don't sue me Clive - get away scot-free and aren't paying their fair share of tax when, instead, the Government is taking the money out of the pockets of single parents by cutting down child support and putting people on Newstart, which is below the poverty line. So I think we desperately need reforms.

CLIVE PALMER: Now, I just want to say I paid a $2 million Medibank levy, you know, That's my defence.

LARISSA WATERS: I don’t know where to go with that.

TONY JONES: I’m not sure that is a defence precisely.

LARISSA WATERS: Yeah.

TONY JONES: The question really was about free market economics and if we actually have ceased reforming in free market economics and really that's a question for you, Clive?

CLIVE PALMER: Well, I think you’ve got to realise government is not about free market or about the economy. The gross national product measures prisons. It measures accidents. It measures carnage on our roads. It measures ambulance. It measures a lot of negative things but it doesn't measure the quality of life, the smile of a child, the quality of our marriages and all the things that make life worth living and that's what we have got to realise. Government is not a business. Government is there to serve the people to make our lives better and richer and stronger and we don't want to confuse those roles and for too long, and I have been part of it, politicians in this country haven't realised that we have got to provide a better standard of living, more concern for the people that live in this country and that’s why we are starting our party because we have had enough of Julia Gillard and Tony Abbott.

TONY JONES: Okay. That is one message I think we did get earlier. The next question is from Jacob Rowan.

UNEMPLOYMENT

JACOB ROWAN: Thank you, Tony. My question is for the panel. I proudly come from Woodridge in Logan City, where the unemployment rate is at 18%. It’s about three times the State's average. Having recently myself been unemployed and having lived on Newstart Allowance for the first time, I have experienced firsthand the difficulty of surviving on such a small amount of money. After the State Government’s axing of the Skilling Queenslanders for Work Program, funding cuts to Queensland TAFEs and flat-lining employment growth in Queensland, what would members of the panel do to help empower people – Queenslanders from low socio-economic areas, such as Woodridge to find meaningful long-term employment?

TONY JONES: Okay. Tim Nicholls?

TIM NICHOLLS: Well, we – we think that the best thing that we can do is to get out of the way of the private sector employing people by reducing red tape, by supporting growth in the four pillars of the economy. Someone mentioned before agriculture and what we are doing about agriculture and it is our aim to double Farmgate, the value of Farmgate production.

BOB KATTER: Oh, come on, Tim. Geez.

TIM NICHOLLS: Bob. Bob.

BOB KATTER: Half the farmers are out there shooting themselves (indistinct).

TIM NICHOLLS: Bob, it’s easy to go around poisoning the wells. It’s much harder to come up with a solution that says...

TIM NICHOLLS: ...that says the reality – that says the reality is we’ve got to look at what we can do to do it. So what can we do? Reduce the red tape, focus on the growth of those areas.

TONY JONES: Okay. Can we go back to – okay, so can we go back to that young man's question? Just hang on for a second. How do you explain to people like Jacob that it’s a good idea to cut jobs training and skilling programs?

TIM NICHOLLS: Well, what we’ve had to do is to deal with a growing and unmanageable state of debt in Queensland that would be see business and people...

CLIVE PALMER: Rubbish. Rubbish.

MULTIPLE SPEAKERS TALK AT ONCE

TONY JONES: Everyone just take a chill pill. I just want to go back to our questioner and then we’ll come back to you and then we’ll hear the other panellists.

TIM NICHOLLS: Well, I’m trying - I’m trying to answer it.

TONY JONES: Okay. So go back to our questioner.

TIM NICHOLLS: I’m trying to answer it.

JACOB ROWAN: Days after you cut the Skilling Queenslanders for Work Program, Deloitte Access Economics actually released a statement saying that it was going to - that program was onset to – on task to deliver billions of dollars worth of revenue to the Queensland State.

TIM NICHOLLS: Well, what the Deloitte report said is that the Skilling Queenslanders for Work Program had measurable benefits to the people who took it on and we don't dispute that. What we also had to deal with though were some very difficult decisions in terms of how we made the Budget stack up and one of those decisions arose around the Skilling Queenslanders for Work Program and we took the decision and we stand by that decision that that program is a program that is better delivered by the Federal Government and the support services that the Federal Government are doing. The other aspect of it is that we need to continue to be able to grow the economy and we need to be able to do that so that you and others will have the opportunity for a long-term job and the results of that have been that over the last...

MULTIPLE SPEAKERS TALK AT ONCE

TONY JONES: Okay. All right.

TIM NICHOLLS: Over the last seven months – over the last seven months employment growth in Queensland has risen and unemployment has fallen and those are the ABS views.

BOB KATTER: Rubbish. Rubbish.

TONY JONES: Thank you. We have got at least two people on this panel trying to get – okay. Go ahead.

CLIVE PALMER: I wrote to the Premier of Queensland, who sent the letter to Mr Nicholls, he sent it back, offering to invest $10 billion in this State. I got our banks to write them and say we'd invest $10 billion in this State and didn't get a reply. These guys are not serious. They are about selling off your hospitals, your schools to their mates that are lobbyists. That’s what it’s about.

BOB KATTER: Hear, hear! Hear, hear! Hear, hear!

CLIVE PALMER: I didn't even get a reply and that's why I left the LNP because I didn't get a reply. I put $10 billion on the table to develop jobs in this State because this is the State where I live, this is country that I love and these guys sacked 15,000 public servants. Sacked them. And not only did they sack 15,000 public servants, ring up Ted Baillieu, the Premier of Victoria – former premier, he will tell you he had to get rid of 14,000 positions. He did it by natural attrition. He didn't make people's lives a misery. We had five suicides with union workers and one girl that was in middle management in the Health Department, 38 years of age, having a baby that was premature, the government was so kind to deliver her termination while she was in post-natal depression. Is that what politics is about? Well, I don't want it if it is.

TONY JONES: Okay. I’m going to say before we go on there’s more questions from the audience on this subject. There have also been cuts in health. Hang on. We have a question from Angela MacGillivray.

BOB KATTER: Oh, come on, Tony!

HEALTH CUTS

ANGELA MACGILLIVRAY: As a registered nurse and mother of a child diagnosed with childhood cancer, I feel I have seen Queensland Health from both sides of the fence. We, the Queensland public, were reassured frontline staff would not be affected by the cutbacks. Now, as an oncology nurse giving chemotherapy to patients, we are seeing services being reduced. I'm sorry. Frontline staff are stretched to breaking point. Is it going to take a catastrophe before the Government sees the importance of quality health care for everyone?

TIM NICHOLLS: Sure. The delivery – well, actually, firstly I was going to say I'm sorry to hear about your personal circumstances and of course everyone - my heart goes out to you in terms of that and thank you for the services that you do as well because they’re not easy services to deliver. So I thank you for that. In terms of the delivery of those services, services have been cut back this year. There are a couple of reasons for it. One is predominantly $103 million was withdrawn from the Queensland Health Service by the Federal Government changing their payment rules. They required a repayment of $40 million they had already paid to us and cancelled a payment of $60 million that was coming to us. So that necessitated, towards the end of last year, some very significant changes that we unfortunately had to do because the money wasn't coming through. I should also say that this Government, in its first year, increased the funding to the Health Department and the Health Services by $800 million from $11 billion to $11.8 billion and that included a resolution and a settlement of the outstanding nurses' claim for the nurses' payroll – for the nurses wages and so on that was resolved within three weeks of us coming to government, where we came to a settled outcome. In terms of the delivery of services, health and hospital network services, which have been put up jointly by the State and Federal Governments as part of the health delivery system, the reforms that were agreed between the former government and the Federal Government, are continuing to be implemented and delivered out there and we remain acutely conscious of the need to continue to provide additional funding, like the extra $800 million that we provided this year.

TONY JONES: Okay. I’m just going to bring you quickly to one of the key points there. Frontline services stretched to breaking point is the allegation from the frontline, I think is fair to say. Would you agree, Angela? You’ve heard the answer here. What do you say?

ANGELA MACGILLIVRAY: Why are there frontline staff that have been sacked? It was not supposed to happen and the hospitals are just unbelievable. It is unbelievable.

TIM NICHOLLS: Look, I agree and, as I say, we wouldn't have wanted that to have to happen but the reality is, not of our making, in December last year, the Government was required to repay $103 million back to the Federal Government that had already been either expended or about to be expended. We put an extra $800 million into the system, another 7% increase over the previous year’s system and in doing so we have also implemented the Health and Hospital Network System. We have put an extra $50 million into regional and rural health networks to upgrade hospitals that we found hadn't been properly maintained on the way through and we have introduced things like mums’ and bubs’ system, another $30 million program to assist new mothers with their children. More work...

TONY JONES: Okay. All right.

TIM NICHOLLS: But more work certainly – no, let me finish because more work certainly needs to be done and it is not the end of the story and I appreciate exactly what you are saying.

TONY JONES: I’ll just go quickly back to Angela. Are you happy with the answer you are getting?

ANGELA MACGILLIVRAY: Not really because I see the everyday reality of it.

BOB KATTER: Tony, please, can we not give Tim another go?

MULTIPLE SPEAKERS TALK AT ONCE

TIM NICHOLLS: You know you don’t like the answer.

TONY JONES: Sorry, Bob, I’m afraid democracy is about everyone having a go and Ged Kearney hasn't had a go. I would like to hear Ged Kearney on this issue.

GED KEARNEY: Is that okay, Bob?

TONY JONES: Ged, go ahead.

BOB KATTER: Be my guest.

GED KEARNEY: I was in Cairns recently for May Day and we had one of the biggest May Day marches we have had in Cairns and I was really proud to walk along with my nurses from my union and a couple of them there said that they had got the dreaded white letter, is what they said, and it was probably the last day that they’d be able to march in their uniforms and, you know, it goes back to the short-term question of the gentleman before. To cut such significant jobs like nursing jobs and health jobs, not only has a huge impact on the health service but it has an enormous impact on the small regional communities. It decreases their buying power, it affects the small businesses in those towns. It has a terrible impact and I just want to say that I think, you know, for all your argy bargy about the budget and everything that you had to pay back, I think it boils down to a basic question that there is an ideological issue where, you know, Liberal governments do not believe that there is a role for government to provide public services and I believe that you are actually...

TIM NICHOLLS: No, that’s wrong.

BOB KATTER: ...cutting back public services.

TONY JONES: Okay. You deserve a right to reply to that but keep it brief because I want to hear from the other panellists.

TONY JONES: No, that's totally wrong. We totally believe that there is a role for government. There is a total role for government in ensuring that services are delivered to the public, that we can grow those services, we can improve those services and we have to do that sustainably into the future and that's what we believe needs to be done.

TONY JONES: Okay. Now, I’ll go to Larissa.

LARISSA WATERS: Thanks, Tony.

TONY JONES: And hear from the other side of the panel.

LARISSA WATERS: Thanks. Look, I think it’s a bit disingenuous to say you want to somehow improve the health system when you start by cutting 14,000 public sector workers, including those that are on the frontline. Now, I mean, health is absolutely vital to everyone here and I'm afraid you have used this Costello Report and some confected budget crisis to try and remove that essential support for people and in the response last week, where you are now mooting selling off and privatising the services that those hospitals provide, then you’re going to make the system even worse and it’s really going to hurt people so I’d really urge you to re-think. You’ve heard a really strong sentiment tonight and one very powerful example from Angela. I am sure there’s many more examples, sadly, like that and I’d urge you to re-think that position.

TIM NICHOLLS: Well, let me correct you, firstly, we aren't moving off for sale – we’re not talking about – it’s important that I correct you. We are not proposing the sale of the health – of the hospitals.

LARISSA WATERS: No, I didn't say that. I know you’re not proposing that. The services that they provide.

TIM NICHOLLS: And, in fact, many services are already provided by other people who are not Queensland Health and I’ve said this before. If you go to the Mater Hospital, you will be treated by employees of the Mater Health Services who will be being paid for by Queensland Health. If you go to the Greenslopes Hospital, you will be treated by people who are employees of Ramsay Health Care, who are paid for by Queensland Health.

LARISSA WATERS: I like to go to the public hospital and get good health care, like everyone should be able to.

TIM NICHOLLS: If you go to the Noosa Hospital – if you go to the Noosa Hospital – but you go to all of those hospitals and get – you get – go to all of those hospitals and get the health care that is necessary and is appropriate for you and there has been no complaints that I am aware of in relation to the Mater health services or Greenslopes or Noosa or many of the other services that are provided.

CLIVE PALMER: (Indistinct)

TONY JONES: Yes, go ahead.

CLIVE PALMER: I have got a complaint. Since 1944 in this State, the State Government funded 100% health services before we had Medicare, Medibank, whatever you want to call it. It was a State Government responsibility for the people of this state. To say the Commonwealth Government has cut your funding, who cares less? It is a State Government responsibility and they should meet that obligation. Secondly, I just want to tell you something. Our party will stand candidates at every state seat in this state and we’ll make a public announcement in Parliament when it resumes that if they sell any hospitals, if they sell any schools that we will resume them as soon as we are elected without compensation. So if you are smart enough, buy them and see what happens.

TONY JONES: Okay. We’ve got a question directed to Ged Kearney.

LARISSA WATERS: You got the dough to do it.

TONY JONES: Just hang on for a sec. It’s from Ben Riley.

LABOR CUTS

BEN RILEY: Ged, in the last week Wayne Swan and the Labor Party have announced that they’ll cut about $600,000 from public servants and another 2.8 billion from higher education. Ged, will you and the ACTU run a campaign against the Labor Party with the same ferocity with which you did against the LNP?

GED KEARNEY: We certainly did - we’re very disappointed that the decision was made to cut funding from universities and we have publicly said and the National Tertiary Education Union is certainly running a campaign about that. Certainly, we do not like to see any money cut from the public service or public sector and we always openly say that that is simply not what we would like to see. So, you know, we’re on the record as saying that. I am not quite sure, you know, why you are saying otherwise.

TONY JONES: I’m just going to quickly take a question down the front here and we’ll - this gentleman has had his hand up patiently for quite a while. Go ahead.

AUDIENCE MEMBER: Sorry to pick on Tim but...

GED KEARNEY: That's okay.

TIM NICHOLLS: No one else seems to be worried about it.

QUESTION FROM THE FLOOR

AUDIENCE MEMBER: What is the point of adding extra funding to Government departments when they have no staff to deliver the services? Isn’t it true that by December this year, as a result of the Commission of Audit report, you are going to sack thousands of more Queenslanders?

TIM NICHOLLS: No, absolutely not. What’s occurred is said last year and I said in the Budget that the job losses and the changes to the public service were the extent of the jobs necessary to undertake the repair task to get the budget going again. We believe that's been able to be achieved. We think that's the case. What I also said, though, is the Government continues to be a reform government and one of the things that needs to occur is we need to get better at delivering the best service we can and that will be part of the process that we’re talking about with the Government.

TONY JONES: Okay. It is time to move- all right. You can have one final comment but it is time to move off this subject. Go ahead.

BOB KATTER: Tony, I was in a government - I was in the cabinet for the best part of a decade. We never had any cutbacks and we had massive borrowings. All this business about balanced budgets, we had the most unbalanced budget in Australian history but we borrowed that money to build a railway line into the coal fields and we delivered to our country the great industry that has carried Australia for the last 25 years now. We borrowed that money to do that. Tim has refused to allow the transmission line to be built out to north-west Queensland. The Federal Government has committed $350 million and they are saying no to it yet he talks about development. The gentleman up there, let me tell you my friend, if Australia joined the rest of the world and had ethanol, 100,000 jobs would be created over the next 10 years in that industry. If, as Clive and I are determined to have a railway line built and owned by the people into the Galilee Basin, there is another 40 or 50,000 jobs there and another 10,000 jobs in my area with that transmission line but there is no movement. In fact, they have given the railway line to a foreign corporation so they can strangle every one of the Australian operators in the Galilee Basin.

TONY JONES: Okay. Now, Bob...

BOB KATTER: Now, we feel very strongly that there be no sale of government assets whatsoever and in that ten year period of the Bjelke-Petersen government, no assets were sold ever but we built stacks and stacks of great assets for all of you people here to create wealth and prosperity for you.

TONY JONES: All right. Thank you very much. It is time to move along. Our next question tonight comes from Nikki Nucifora.

CATTLE CRISIS

NIKKI NUCIFORA: Two years after the full live export ban, exports in cattle are at 25% of their original quantity. As a result cattle graziers are faced with huge debt and excess livestock that can't be sold and must be put down. As Mr Katter has illustrated in recent debates, there is an alarming rate of suicide in rural farmers as their products decline in the market. The Labor Government's response to the mistreatment of cattle only took a few short weeks from the time it was seen on Four Corners to see a full live export ban. However, the response to financially stressed Australian people who are at a high risk of mental illness has not been done with such urgency or compassion. Does the panel think the mental health of these cattle farmers should be of equal or greater concern to the Labor Government and how do they suggest we balance the welfare of animals and the welfare of humans on issues like this in the future?

TONY JONES: I’ll start with Ged Kearney.GED KEARNEY: Thanks. Thanks for the question. I think it is a really good question. Of course the mental health of any Australian is important, regardless of where they work or what their industry is and I think the cattle industry - and not being an expert in that industry - but it seems to me, from what I have observed is that it is...

BOB KATTER: I am Tony.

GED KEARNEY: I know, Bob. Just a minute, mate.

BOB KATTER: No, Ged, please, I’m not interrupting. (Indistinct)

GED KEARNEY: It seems to me that it is one of those industries that really needs an industry plan. We need to look at it from whoa to go. How can we support those farmers? How can we actually make sure that cattle are transported humanely? Is it the fact that maybe we move away from live cattle exports and actually develop a food manufacturing industry here in put more investment into, where there are good jobs and where we can make sure that livestock are treated humanely in our country? So I think it needs a complete overhaul. It can be relooked from whoa to go from my opinion.

TONY JONES: Bob Katter?

BOB KATTER: The net result of this has been that there has been a 5% drop-off in our demand for cattle because we spat upon the Indonesians and they have retaliated, naturally. But the outcome is that in the next two years, unless something really radical is done, we thank the government for 420 million but that’s far from what is needed here. The State government has given us nothing. Nothing at all. The Feds have given us 420 million. So much for who is looking after agriculture in this country. But let me say this, that the net result will be that I would estimate that half a million cattle will die cruelly from starvation over the next two years. About a million kangaroos and flora will die because the watering points will be closed down. One of our leading graziers fell off a windmill because you have to keep the water going so, I mean, the outcome for this but, you know, to me, we can't - Ged, what you are saying sounds very good but we can't do it. The Indonesians can't possibly afford to buy meat at $3,500 a beast processed out. If they buy it off us and process it – grow it out and process it out themselves, we are looking at about $1500 to $1700. So, I mean, you are depriving these people of protein. I mean literally a million people will be starved of protein because of what has happened here and what has occurred here. No, if you build meatworks and can that food and provide it for foreign aid, which would be a fantastic thing to do and also put it on the shelves of Woolworths and Coles, where they don't get a markup of more than 10%, then you will be helping, you know, poor people in this country to get decent food regime and also, I mean, look at your handy work, what you have done here. The animal libbers - look what you have done here (indistinct)…

TONY JONES: Well, I’m going to pull you up there.

BOB KATTER: (Indistinct)

TONY JONES: Because I recall interviewing you immediately after the story ran on Four Corners and you actually blamed the live exporters for not having appropriate conditions in the abattoirs, for not supervising those conditions. You blamed then. Have you changed your mind?

BOB KATTER: Tony, no. No. It was the MLA I blamed. The body that is paid $100 million a year to oversee this, what they can't - even the second week after this occurred there was still not one single knocking box or stun gun had left Australia and, I mean, that is just unforgiveable.

TONY JONES: And that's my point.

BOB KATTER: I mean that was the answer.

TONY JONES: That is my point. You are blaming the animal liberation people but at the same time you are blaming the people who are responsible for what was happening in those abattoirs.

BOB KATTER: Well, I don't want to go on too long but I should have added that to it, I can tell you. But I was pleased that you asked that question.

TONY JONES: Yeah, okay. All right. Let’s hear from Larissa Waters?

LARISSA WATERS: Thanks, Tony. Yeah, look, I think it’s a really important issue you’ve raised, Nikki, and you raise a number of points there. Firstly, clearly there is an emergency and nobody wants to see cattle starve or farmers driven to suicide, as sadly more and more of our Australian farmers are, as Bob mentioned earlier. So we need to fix that.

BOB KATTER: One every four days, Larissa. One every four days.

LARISSA WATERS: Yeah, well, coal seam gas has got a lot to do with that too so we can hopefully talk about that later. So let's get some emergency fodder drops up there to make sure that those cattle don't starve and, on that point, unfortunately those wild fires went through about six months ago and there has been nothing done in the interim to try and stave off what was going to be a feed crisis for those cattle. So I think rather than doing this last-minute, "Oh, let's open up our national parks so that these poor cows don't starve", let’s do some proper planning. We know, unfortunately, that there’s going to be more extreme weather events like drought, like more severe wildfires. Let's work with industry and plan for that. Make sure we have destocking regimes where they are needed. Make sure we have got plans to get fodder when it’s needed but I don't think that live export is the answer. Unfortunately, the rules that the Australian government bought in to try and fix the problem, they’re just not working and we’re seeing more and more of these horrific incidents that are being exposed not by the government investigators themselves but by the activists who are doing that monitoring work that the Government is not even doing. I don't think anybody wants to see any creature treated like that. So, as Ged suggested, we have actually got ways of having stable employment in those regions onshore by having abattoirs and processing centres here onshore and I think we have really got to have another look at that option seriously and get on with it.

TONY JONES: Okay. Clive Palmer.

CLIVE PALMER: Well, I think it’s all about the government overreacting to something that's happened, not having a moderation and they should be sitting down bringing everyone together to come up with a solution. You know, it’s very easy to blame one side or the other but it is more important that we listen to the market, listen to the people concerned and come up with a response. We don't just do a response because it is a media thing to do, you know. We have got to listen more. The most important thing about any politician is he needs to listen. He shouldn’t have all the answers.

LARISSA WATERS: Or she, Clive. Or she. Not just blokes in this joint.

CLIVE PALMER: (Indistinct) subject. Anyway. Or she, or whatever. We have got to listen and I did listen to you. So...

LARISSA WATERS: Thank you and I apologise for butting in.

CLIVE PALMER: Okay. So, you know, we have got to listen more and I think if something goes wrong, we don't want to panic. We don’t want to do something, you know, right the opposite. We need to sit down, talk, listen to people and listen more and appreciate everyone's point of view.

TONY JONES: Okay, Tim Nicholls, you have been listening to this. Well, we’ve heard at least one, maybe two, calls for major government intervention. Should there be a State-Federal intervention to fix up, as much as can be done, what's going wrong with those cattle and helping the farmers who are in this situation?

TIM NICHOLLS: Very much so.

TONY JONES: What are you prepared to do?

TIM NICHOLLS: Our Industry – sorry, our Agriculture Minister, John McVeigh, attended the meeting of producers that was held up in Richmond, I think, last week.

BOB KATTER: Yes. Yes.

TIM NICHOLLS: And spoke and listened to what the...

BOB KATTER: No, he didn't, Tim. He left early. Don't say he listened because he didn’t. He left early. He gave a speech and took off straight afterwards.

TIM NICHOLLS: No, he was there. He was there.

BOB KATTER: Tim, not your fault. I am not blaming you for it but I am blaming him.

TIM NICHOLLS: And listened to them. John is actually in Jakarta now. He flew out to Indonesia on Sunday with the Agricultural Minister from the Northern Territory, which has also been impacted, in an effort to reopen the trade barriers, something that we believe the Federal Government should have been doing but had refused to do. Equally, last week John declared a third of the State now drought declared and that also provides agistment support, transport support and income support from the State Government through farmers as well as access to low-interest loans through the Queensland Rural Reconstruction Adjustment Authority. So we have taken all those steps and today we have announced that cattle that are in distress in areas will be allowed access to the State national estate so that...

TIM NICHOLLS: Thank you Tim, for that. Thank you.

TIM NICHOLLS: ...so they can actually be given some humane treatment because we think, in fact, it is far worse that they are there dying in their droves and not being fed. So those estates which are, in many cases, former cattle property and cattle country will be reopened again to them. So certainly the – certainly the state...

TONY JONES: Tony, we appreciate that announcement.

TIM NICHOLLS: Certainly the State is working and will continue to work on solutions up there on north west.

TONY JONES: Okay. Unusually on this panel tonight you got plaudits. So there you go. The next question is from...

BOB KATTER: Don't let it go to your head though.

TONY JONES: The next question is from Divyasree Harikrishnan.

GONSKI

DIVYASREE HARIKRISHNAN: Good evening. As students, my friends and I often discuss the prospect of the Queensland Government signing up for the Gonski education reforms. In the past week, reports based on a closer look at the Queensland Studies Authority data showed that lesser advantaged schools in Queensland are facing a staggeringly low number of students entering university, some none at all, with numbers as low as a third of school students even completing Year 12. With these recent reports and figures is the Government's choice to not subscribe to the new education plan the best decision for the betterment of students in the less privileged parts of the state?

TONY JONES: Tim Nicholls?

TIM NICHOLLS: Well, we remain and continue to be in discussions with the Federal Government about the Gonski reform process so we are continuing debate with them about that proposal. At the same time, this State Government has put an extra $300 million into the upgrade of the existing school stock, a maintenance backlog that we discovered upon coming to government. So we have actually put $300 million into that program.

TONY JONES: Okay. But I want to come to the Gonski issue.

TIM NICHOLLS: Yep. And I’m happy to do it.

TONY JONES: Which, I mean, everyone is interested to know whether Queensland has ruled out or is still seriously negotiating?

TIM NICHOLLS: Very much so. We have put another $535 million on the table in our great teachers equals great results program, which is about upgrading the skills level of teachers, ensuring that teachers have appropriate...

TONY JONES: No, but I’m sorry, I’m just going to press you. Do you regard that as part of the negotiating process for Gonski, putting extra money forward? Are you putting that money on the table so you can get a deal with the Federal Government?

TIM NICHOLLS: We will implement that program irrespective of the outcomes of our negotiations.

TONY JONES: Okay.

TIM NICHOLLS: But we are remaining in negotiations in relation to the delivery of the national education reforms. We are still working our way through the numbers. For example our early figures show us that 300 schools would be worse off under the new implementation of the full Gonski roll out. So we have to work through those things but we are in constant contact with the Federal Government about how that can go ahead.

TONY JONES: And are you optimistic because you know what happened in New South Wales? The Premier of New South Wales effectively sort of broke the deadlock by being the first conservative Premier to sign up. Do you think you could do that here?

TIM NICHOLLS: Well, I think if we can come to a proper deal that makes sense to us, certainly that would be the case and we remain...

TONY JONES: So you have no political objections?

TIM NICHOLLS: No. No. Well, our objective is to get the best outcome for the kids. That's where we stand. That's why we have put the money into the maintenance upgrade and that’s why we have already committed that extra $530 million for the program. If we can get a better outcome, we will certainly grab it with both hands.

TONY JONES: All right. We’re going to move on because we’ve got quite a few extra questions to go through. The next one is from Emilie Bertsch.

POLITICS, COAL & ENVIRONMENT

EMILIE BERTSCH: Clive Palmer, your Waratah Coal company's project China First is expected to demolish 8000 hectares of the Bimblebox Nature Refuge, a bioregion made up of complex ecosystems. What is your outlook on Australia's future environmental status if we ignore the need to conserve bioregions like Bimblebox and bring dry our natural resources?

TONY JONES: Clive Palmer?

CLIVE PALMER: Well, I think you’ve got to listen a lot a and with environmental questions it is important you listen and you respond to things. In our recent EIS, we have announced for the first time ever that we are going to put a hard-top cover on coal wagons and also to run them all the way to Abbott Point, which means you won’t have coal coming off the wagons going into our river systems and flooding the Barrier Reef. So we think that’s a good reform. We have listened to the environmentalists.

TONY JONES: But is that a first step, Clive Palmer, because what’s being asked here is what happens to this 8,000 hectares?

CLIVE PALMER: Okay. What we’ve also undertaken to do is to have a closed system at Abbott Point and also to have closed conveyors to go on ships with triple bottoms. So we have dramatically improved the whole situation to protect the environment. In relation to the Bimblebox Reserve, that was declared under the Bligh government and the Bligh government found that it was an area which wasn’t really not suitable for mining. It was open for mining under the Labor Party. It was assessed by the environmental area and the environmental movement objected to that on three occasions and the Bligh government decided their objections weren't valid. Now, in our proposal, we have offered offsets of high areas of Queensland which need to be protected, high economic, high environmentally value areas that we will be buying and making available to the Queensland Government in perpetuity for the people of Queensland, many times more than the area of the Bimblebox area, which wasn’t a reserve at all. It was a cattle station until it was left to other people. So we have tried to listen and tried to compromise. You need to be able to listen and compromise some of these things. It costs us a lot of money to cover our wagons to ensure that coal doesn't blow off and all through Australia, in the Hunter region and the Bowen Basin, coal wagons are open so people don't care about the environment.

LARISSA WATERS: Thanks, Tony. Look, I am pleased that you are covering your coal wagons, Clive, but this will destroy 8,000 hectares of the last remaining forest in central Queensland. You will then have a massive 500km railway line going to Abbott Point, which is destined to become the world's largest coal export terminal, which is, of course, feeding the largest ever dredging program that the Great Barrier Reef, which last time I checked was still a world heritage site although, perhaps not for long according to international concern, turning that into simply a highway for your coal exports and making the world's climate even more endangered. I am afraid covering the wagons really doesn't cut the mustard.

CLIVE PALMER: Well, unfortunately that's not true. Unfortunately, that's not true, Larissa. At the moment coal is sourced to the markets we will be going to from Indonesia, which has a high ash coal which has more carbon fallout for the world.

CLIVE PALMER: Well, it is and it means that it’s going to have a lesser carbon imprint. So we want to improve the outcome if we can and that’s what you have to look at. Where coal is being sourced at the moment in Indonesia, it’s of a very dirty type of coal, which is being used in power mills in China. If we can remove that coal from the market and introduce our coal we can get more jobs and more exports.

LARISSA WATERS: I think we should introduce our renewables, Clive, because they are really clean and they actually work.

CLIVE PALMER: But they’re not exportable.

BOB KATTER: Tony, if we are going to look after the gentleman up there for jobs then, you know, Clive's argument – I mean we have to mine coal in this State. We have got no alternative but to do that. If you want...

LARISSA WATERS: We’ve got sunshine, Bob.

BOB KATTER: Well, please...

LARISSA WATERS: We’ve got lots of alternatives.

BOB KATTER: If you want...

LARISSA WATERS: Please.

BOB KATTER: Well, look, Larissa, please.

LARISSA WATERS: It really can be done.

BOB KATTER: If that gentleman wants – if that gentleman wants jobs – if that gentleman wants jobs seriously then we have to go down this pathway but if you want jobs, Tony, we are not going to get them with a Labor Government who flew in 125,000 457 workers last year. Now, if they flew in 125,000, the great danger, Ged, is that the Liberals will see it as their duty to fly in 300,000. So, I mean, I don't know how many jobs we have got in Australia but it ain’t going to be too long before there’s none left for Australians. That is for certain unless the section 457 thing is confronted and our party is tenaciously opposed to 457s, Tony. But I’ve got to say that we need that coal industry and I sympathise with some of the things that can be done to ameliorate it. But, son, if you want your jobs, that's where you have to go, I’m sorry.

TONY JONES: Let's just hear if Ged Kearney feels the same way. Is it jobs versus the environment? Do jobs win out?

GED KEARNEY: Look, I think it’s - there is no jobs on a dead planet as they say.

LARISSA WATERS: Hear, hear!

GED KEARNEY: And ultimately though I think, you know, I am part halfway between because I don't think we can just turn off coal like that and I think that we have to have a transition plan – a transition plan that includes reducing our dependence on coal and increasing renewable energies and at the same time we have to be transitioning jobs to green jobs so we have to make sure that people in those industries are looked after, that they’re cared for, their communities are looked after, that if possibly they are retrained over time and that there is a just transition along the way and I think that that is the important issue.

CLIVE PALMER: Yeah, but the issue, I guess, if you are a worker in New South Wales, you are earning $65,000 a year, you pay $20,000 in tax. You’re left with $45,000 disposable income. You’ve now got electricity prices between $6,000 and $10,000. How is the average Australian supposed to survive and that's what we have to look at. Some of the changes that the Labor Party has brought in has made that happen; the carbon tax and other things. So I am concerned about families being able to support themselves and send their children to have a decent education. When they are left with $35,000 disposable income after they pay their electricity prices, what future do they have really in the world we live in?

LARISSA WATERS: I’m also concerned about...

TONY JONES: Okay. No. No. I just want to hear because the questioner asked about the reserve and I just want to know are you going to dig it up, this 8,000 hectares?

LARISSA WATERS: Half of it.

CLIVE PALMER: Well, there isn't a reserve that stops coal mining, Tony. It’s not a reserve and under the Act, under the Bligh Act, it’s allowed to be done.

TONY JONES: Does it have environmental value at all in your opinion?

LARISSA WATERS: Yes, it does.

CLIVE PALMER: Well, it doesn’t have anywhere near the environmental value of other regions of Queensland which we are going to substitute for it.

TONY JONES: Okay. All right. We’ve got time for one last question. We are nearly out of time. Neil O'Connor.

KATTER, PALMER & SELF DOUBT

NEIL O’CONNOR: Last week on Q&A our Prime Minister admitted to some issues of self-doubt from time to time. My question to Mr Palmer and Mr Katter is do they ever have any self-doubt?

TONY JONES: I tell you what, because they have been speaking without any self-doubt for such a long time, I’m going to go to the others first and I think that question can go to everybody. Ged Kearney, do you ever have any self-doubt? The Prime Minister does in her private moments.

GED KEARNEY: Of course. You know, of course you do. You are always are nervous, as she said, before coming on a show like Q&A, that's for sure and, you know, along the way you often stop and think "Am I on the right path? Am I going to do the right thing? Am I going to do a good enough job for my members?" That's what gives me the most concerns. Like am I representing them to the very best of my abilities? And that’s the thing that worries me the most is that I’m out there doing the best for them.

TONY JONES: Tim Nicholls, do you ever have any self-doubt when you’re making cuts to services for people? You’ve heard tonight the reaction. I’m just wondering if it causes you to have self-doubt?

TIM NICHOLLS: I think you always, Tony, question the need for the decisions you make and question the decisions that you come to and you’d be, I think, less than human if you didn't and you’d be doing your job less well if you were unable to do that. So, yeah, I often say "Is this the right thing and how does this work and balance – find things up and weigh them up in the balance?"

TONY JONES: When you are here at a forum like this, where you get quite a lot of confrontation, not only from the audience from the panel, get opposition, not only from the audience but from the panel, as you’ve been bravely sitting here taking it from everybody, do you ever doubt that you actually got this wrong?

TIM NICHOLLS: Tony, I believe very firmly that we have done the right thing, that you’ve needed some fairly firm hands on the tiller and people with the resolve to see it through. I think the worst thing would be to lose your nerve and to back away from it if you believed you made the right decision in the first place and I think we’re going to do that and I think Queensland will benefit from it.

TONY JONES: Larissa Waters, let’s put it this way with you: do you ever have any doubts that the Greens' anti-development policies are...

LARISSA WATERS: We’re not anti-development, Tony.

TONY JONES: Well, anti the kind of development...

LARISSA WATERS: We’re anti-doubling coal exports through our one precious world heritage site to make the world’s climate worse. But having clarified that point...

TONY JONES: So no doubts at all?

LARISSA WATERS: ...it’s a really good question. Thank you for raising that and I think it’s important for all of us to reflect on that. I know I have self-doubt and I am one of the few young women in Parliament and I look around and, you know, it still can feel daunting until they start harping at each other in Question Time. But be that as it make, I often worry that I am not spending enough time with my little, beautiful four year old girl and I think that's something that all politicians, no matter what side of the fence they are from, question. But I think it’s important that you stand up for what you believe in and that's a lesson that I want to teach her that you’ve just got to do that and I hope that that will help deliver her a safer and a more sustainable world and a reef that's still there and a climate that’s still liveable for her and for all of the other species that we share this planet with.

TONY JONES: Bob Katter?

BOB KATTER: I suppose I can't afford to have self-doubts. You know, I walked into a Parliament for 20 years where I have said "You must have collective aggressive marketing for your agricultural products and you must have a low dollar to be able to preserve your manufacturing and your agriculture" and to walk in there and say "I'm in step but everybody else is out of step", I mean, you really can't afford to have self-doubt. But, you know, I mean, I say that to you genuinely. I mean we walk into a Parliament where those people are fanatical, obsessive zealots of free trade and it has been a policy that has been absolutely disastrous for this country and to keep telling yourself - I sit under Jack McEwen and he said – he said "The important thing in Government is to get it right". And he said "Education is no replacement for hard work in getting it right" and I cart a big, huge thing around with me with all paperwork in it all the time so do I have self-doubts? I can't afford to. Have I got it wrong? On many occasions and I deeply regret, bitterly regret, that I have got it wrong on many occasions. I hope they don't occur too much in the future.

TONY JONES: Clive Palmer? You don't show much evidence of self-doubt. I have never seen any evidence of it.

CLIVE PALMER: Well, I don't think it is about self or I don’t think it’s about doubt. It’s about ideas. You know governments may come and go, but ideas go on forever and our debate isn’t really a personal thing. I like Tim Nicholls. He is a great guy, a great person. His family has got a right to be here and enjoy things but I differ with him about his ideas, about what he does and how he goes about it. I am sure he differs with mine and that’s not about me, it’s not about self, it’s about accepting each other as Australians and respecting them for what they say.

TONY JONES: So personally, do you ever have any self-doubt? When you go home at the end of this evening will you just sit there and think, ‘Well, that went well. I'm pretty good," or will you have some self-doubt?

CLIVE PALMER: Well, I will be terrified when I go home and see my wife because, you know, I'm the boss of our family but I have got her permission to say so.

TONY JONES: Okay. I’m sorry that's all we have time for tonight. Please thank our panel: Bob Katter, Ged Kearney, Tim Nicholls, Clive Palmer, Larissa Waters. And special thanks to this great audience and everyone here at the ABC in Brisbane. You can give yourselves a round of applause. Thank you, very much. Next week – no, it’s all over Bob. Next week on Q&A, we will bring together some of the brightest names of the Sydney Writers' Festival with brilliant comedian and writer Ruby Wax; economist and journalist Sylvia Nasar, best known for her biography of the schizophrenic Nobel Prize winning mathematician John Nash, A Beautiful Mind; historian William Dalrymple, whose latest book highlights Britain’s disastrous occupation of Afghanistan in the 1840s; journalist, commentator and author Mike Carlton; and the man who has been described as the Stephen Hawking of sex, Faramerz Dabhoiwola. Until then, goodnight.

Clive Palmer is a mining entrepreneur and one of the most colourful characters in Australian business circles. He is renowned for being always willing to speak his mind.

Once a staunch supporter of the Liberal National Party, Clive has had several clashes with the LNP leadership and the Queensland LNP Premier, Campbell Newman. He has now formed his own political party, the United Australia Party.

Clive was born in Victoria but now lives on the Gold Coast in Queensland. He is widowed with two children. Now 56, he originally retired at the age of 29 after making a fortune in the 1980s Gold Coast property boom. In the later 1980s he started taking an interest in mining exploration in WA and his principal mining company, Mineralogy, secured access to 160 billion tonnes of iron ore reserves in the Pilbara region.

Clive once worked as press secretary for the late Joh Bjelke-Petersen when he was Queensland Premier. He has been a big financial supporter of conservative political parties but has friendships and contacts across the political spectrum.

He was named as an Australian Living Treasure and attracted controversy when he claimed the Greens were a puppet of the CIA. As owner of the Gold Coast United FC he also featured in a public spat with Frank Lowy, head of the Football Federation of Australia.

His most recent venture has been the announcement that he is building a replica of the Titanic, to be called Titanic II.

Gerardine (Ged) Kearney is President of the Australian Council of Trade Unions, which represents about 1.9 million union members and their families.

She began as ACTU President in July 2010, succeeding Sharan Burrow.

Ged began her working life as a registered nurse in 1985. She has worked in both the public and private acute sectors, predominantly in Melbourne, and has also been a nursing educator, including manager of the Clinical Nursing Education Department at Austin Health. She has a Bachelor in Education.

The year after qualifying as a registered nurse, she took part in the famous Victorian nurses’ strike of 1986 which resulted in substantial improvements to pay and conditions. Ged became an official with the Australian Nursing Federation in 1997, was elected ANF Federal Secretary in April 2008, and oversaw a period of rapid growth by the union, which represents more than 200,000 nurses and midwives.

Ged now strives to improve the working lives and conditions for all Australian workers. She believes that unions should not just be concerned with the experience of people at work but should also be advocates for change to improve all aspects of Australians’ lives. She wants to ensure that unions continue to be at the forefront of public debate in Australia.

Ged’s ambition as ACTU President is to build respect from political leaders and the broad community for the values of fairness and the role played by unions in delivering social change so that people want to join.

The second youngest of nine children, Ged grew up in the inner Melbourne suburb of Richmond, where her father was a publican. She was brought up in a household where the importance of the collective, both in politics and society, was emphasised from an early age.

Tim Nicholls is the Queensland Treasurer, Minister for Trade and LNP Member for Clayfield.

Having lived in the electorate for over 28 years, Tim is a well-known and active member of the community. Being first elected to Parliament in 2006 after six years as Councillor for Hamilton Ward in the Brisbane City Council, Tim has a strong record of standing up for our local area and getting things done.

Before joining Council in 2000 Tim worked as a lawyer. He graduated from Church of England Grammar School and obtained his law degree from the Queensland University of Technology in 1989. As a Councillor, Tim was the Lord Mayor's Finance Spokesman and a member of the Expenditure Review Committee.

Tim was appointed Shadow Treasurer in August 2008. He also served as the Deputy Leader of the Opposition between March 2011 and March 2012. He was then sworn in as Queensland Treasurer on the 26th of March 2012.

Tim is married to Mary, an occupational therapist, and together they have three children. He enjoys reading, helping his kids at sport, fishing in the family's 14 foot tinnie (dinghy) and listening to Jimmy Buffett.

Larissa Waters became the first Queensland Senate representative for the Australian Greens in the 2010 federal election, having narrowly missed out in 2007.

Larissa is an environmental lawyer. Before entering Parliament she worked in the community sector for eight years advising people how to use the law to protect the environment. She is passionate about human rights, protecting the environment and public participation and accountability in government.

As a member of the Greens her chief policy areas of responsibility include environment, biodiversity, natural heritage and population.

Bob Katter is the Founder and Leader of Katter’s Australian Party and represents the Queensland seat of Kennedy which he has held since 1993. Bob follows in the footsteps of his father, Bob Katter Sr, who held the seat for 24 years.

A National Party member for most of his parliamentary career, Bob chose to stand as an Independent in 2001 citing disenchantment with the National’s economic policies as his reason. Specifically he was opposed to the elimination of tariffs and subsidies for agriculture, policies he said were killing the sugar, banana and dairy industries that dominate in his electorate. He won in a landslide.

He went on to form Katter’s Australian Party in 2011, an independent grouping with a wide-ranging policy manifesto that includes the right to hunt, fish and boil a billy.

Before entering Federal Parliament Bob was a Queensland State MP and held four ministerial positions. He remains a staunch admirer of long-serving conservative Queensland Premier Sir Joh Bjelke-Petersen. A colourful character noted for his large hat and distinctive turn of phrase, Bob is often mocked by urban voters but is a shrewd and skilful politician who has his finger on the pulse of non-metropolitan Australia.