I was talking about Extremekiller. You forget how hard it is for Terrakion to set-up. First of all, Arceus can usually survive the CC, and KO back with earthquake/ brick break. Terrakion can not "set-up for free" against Arceus.

I still stand by my last argument. Exactly how do Blaziken and Terrakion synergize well? The only thing they do for each other is that Terrakion defeats arceus for blaziken, which I already addressed. And Terrakion in no way possible can defeat Giratina, unless running subSD. Giratina survives the +2 stone edge, and then burns/phazes it. Its also bad to assume that Terrakion has a SD under its belt, because chances are it won't. It is way too frail by uber standards to set-up as easily as you assume.

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It is not hard for terrakion to set up - Giratina-O almost always switches in. The 252 hp arceus gets KOed 87% of the time.
I never said Terrakion can beat Giratina, Giratina cant even harm this team. It gets pp stalled by Xatu.
Mewtwo and Rayquaza are also frail, they do not set up by use of bulk but by scaring out the opponent. I will find a log and show you how Blaziken and Terrakion set up. Wait I will be back with it in a minute.
Cant find good logs. By the way, I really feel we should change the groudon set, its quite lackluster. I dont even understand why the paradancer was chosen. Something over swords dance would help.

I was replying back to Anikrahman1995 about life orb terrakion, sorry, problably should have made that clear :/

@Anikrahman1995: i see what your saying now, but if the opponent decides to stay in and attack, Terrakion goes bye-bye (or is damaged enough to where he won't be sweeping anyway). And i think its better to RP first if your looking for a sweep, unless your facing stall.

I was replying back to Anikrahman1995 about life orb terrakion, sorry, problably should have made that clear :/

@Anikrahman1995: i see what your saying now, but if the opponent decides to stay in and attack, Terrakion goes bye-bye (or is damaged enough to where he won't be sweeping anyway). And i think its better to RP first if your looking for a sweep, unless your facing stall.

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OK OK OK...i say swords dance, you say rock polish. Which is better? Swords Dance if you see a Giratina-O in team preview. Force Dialga out, this will happen almost all the time, you can go test it yourself. I think at this stage its better to go with Terrakion and test the team. Try to get about 75 battles done. See the pros and cons for yourself. Its better to get an actual experience thatn just using theory. The team's biggest problem is Darkrai as the focus sash variant are hard to take down.

And Darkrai is not this teams biggest threat. If anything its opposing Water Arceus.

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Dude you told me to RP first, thats what I was referring to,i.e, whether swords dance or rock polish be used first. Why are you arguing with me anyway? I have already proven what needs to be proven unless you believe that Heatran is better. Choice Scarf Heatran= Free Kyogre switchin whereas if it were terrakion, it wouldnt be so eager to switch in. Terrakion also has the bonus of smashing one of its switchins(Giratina-O) while the other can be double switched in on(Giratina vs Reshiram scenario). Now I want you to stop arguing with me just for the sake of arguing, and prove to me how heatran does better than Terrakion.
252SpAtk Heatran (Neutral) Overheat in Sun vs 252HP/0SpDef Multitype Arceus (Neutral): 66% - 77% (294 - 346 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
252SpAtk Heatran (Neutral) Overheat in Sun vs 4HP/0SpDef Multitype Arceus (Neutral): 76% - 90% (294 - 346 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
252SpAtk Heatran (Neutral) Overheat in Sun vs 88HP/0SpDef Multitype Arceus (Neutral): 72% - 85% (294 - 346 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
You bring up Giratina when you dont even realize that Xatu walls it. And Heatran is walled by many things including Giratina and cannot even revenge Arceus. Well it can revenge darkrai and mewtwo, well redundancy isnt welcome, you see? Yeah they switch out to Kyogre while you try to revenge them whereas Blaziken revenges both with a 100% accurate move and Kyogre fears Hi Jump Kick. This is an offensive team. We should use pokemon that are difficult to switch into. Terrakion has one counter(Giratina) which hates facing Reshiram as it may lose a teammate in that scenario. Blaziken has one check which is Extremekiller which Terrakion takes on handily.

Dude you told me to RP first, thats what I was referring to,i.e, whether swords dance or rock polish be used first. Why are you arguing with me anyway? I have already proven what needs to be proven unless you believe that Heatran is better. Choice Scarf Heatran= Free Kyogre switchin whereas if it were terrakion, it wouldnt be so eager to switch in. Terrakion also has the bonus of smashing one of its switchins(Giratina-O) while the other can be double switched in on(Giratina vs Reshiram scenario). Now I want you to stop arguing with me just for the sake of arguing, and prove to me how heatran does better than Terrakion.
252SpAtk Heatran (Neutral) Overheat in Sun vs 252HP/0SpDef Multitype Arceus (Neutral): 66% - 77% (294 - 346 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
252SpAtk Heatran (Neutral) Overheat in Sun vs 4HP/0SpDef Multitype Arceus (Neutral): 76% - 90% (294 - 346 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
252SpAtk Heatran (Neutral) Overheat in Sun vs 88HP/0SpDef Multitype Arceus (Neutral): 72% - 85% (294 - 346 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
You bring up Giratina when you dont even realize that Xatu walls it. And Heatran is walled by many things including Giratina and cannot even revenge Arceus. Well it can revenge darkrai and mewtwo, well redundancy isnt welcome, you see? Yeah they switch out to Kyogre while you try to revenge them whereas Blaziken revenges both with a 100% accurate move and Kyogre fears Hi Jump Kick. This is an offensive team. We should use pokemon that are difficult to switch into. Terrakion has one counter(Giratina) which hates facing Reshiram as it may lose a teammate in that scenario. Blaziken has one check which is Extremekiller which Terrakion takes on handily.

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Im not arguing, I just brought up a weakness that the current team has, which is neccessary if it is to be successful. I think double dance Terrakion is a bad fit; on the contrary, SubSD Terrakion can readily dispose of both Giratina forms. I already said that I like the idea of Terrakion; just not your set. One more thing: you say that we should use pokemon hard to switch into, correct? Well, Heatrans overheat hits harder than Terrakion's close combat in neutral weather. Giratina also isn't Terrakion's only counter.

Im not arguing, I just brought up a weakness that the current team has, which is neccessary if it is to be successful. I think double dance Terrakion is a bad fit; on the contrary, SubSD Terrakion can readily dispose of both Giratina forms. I already said that I like the idea of Terrakion; just not your set. One more thing: you say that we should use pokemon hard to switch into, correct? Well, Heatrans overheat hits harder than Terrakion's close combat in neutral weather. Giratina also isn't Terrakion's only counter.

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Please tell me what you are suggesting. The actual set would make things clear. Heatran isnt hard to switch into. Kyogre is no 1 at usage. There are plenty of dragon types who resist fire. Dragon Pulse is too weak to do anything. Overheat lessens in power after each use. If you mispredict, you will be stuck on a weak move anyway. Overheat is weaker than close combat in neutral weather. Check your calculations. Both of them are using a neutral nature and Terrakion holds life orb. The reason Terrakion is harder to switch into is because its STAB coverage is unresisted in ubers. Even resists like Mewtwo take like 44% damage from close combat. SubSD is bad because it will need leftovers to beat Giratina witout losing a significant portion of its health and that means the power from life orb will be lost so it will not be able to beat Giratina-O or Extremekiller Arceus. You even bring up false facts like Overheat being stronger than Close Combat. Now how am I supposed to believe anything you say?

Please tell me what you are suggesting. The actual set would make things clear. Heatran isnt hard to switch into. Kyogre is no 1 at usage. There are plenty of dragon types who resist fire. Dragon Pulse is too weak to do anything. Overheat lessens in power after each use. If you mispredict, you will be stuck on a weak move anyway. Overheat is weaker than close combat in neutral weather. Check your calculations. Both of them are using a neutral nature and Terrakion holds life orb. The reason Terrakion is harder to switch into is because its STAB coverage is unresisted in ubers. Even resists like Mewtwo take like 44% damage from close combat. SubSD is bad because it will need leftovers to beat Giratina witout losing a significant portion of its health and that means the power from life orb will be lost so it will not be able to beat Giratina-O or Extremekiller Arceus. You even bring up false facts like Overheat being stronger than Close Combat. Now how am I supposed to believe anything you say?

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I forgot to factor in the sets (thus life orb). My mistake. Regardless, i'm done arguing. I already voted for the pokemon I wish to see on the team.

And I would like to apologize if I sounded hostile. I really wasn't trying to come across so.

I have no idea why everyone picked Scarf Heatran. For those of you who want to know why I chose Terrakion, please read my posts on page 5 and 6 of this thread.
Right now its a tie between heatran and Terrakion at 4/4

I picked ScarfTran because it fits our team better. Yes, I do realise that Heatran is giving Kyogre free switch-ins, but I think Ho-oh is a much bigger threat to our team than Kyogre is. Without hazards and sun up, it's going to come in again and again to fuck with our team. Kyogre at least can be semi-lured in and disposed of with Draco Meteor (or weakned massively), and we have a usable check in Water Arceus. Ho-oh, on the other hand, we have absolutely nothing to check it with apart from Groudon, which risks getting burned by Sacred Fire and could just end up getting Stone Edge stalled out and then would be completely useless. Heatran at least, gives us a usable Ho-oh switch-in that can at least reliably beat Ho-oh once. Terrakion cannot beat Ho-oh reliably at all. It cannot switch into Brave Bird, or Sub, while Sacred Fire has 50% chance to burn it.

cottonpuff and anikrahman next time take the time to read and properly respond to each others' posts.

stop replying to shit out of context and more importantly, BACK up your shit with calcs and proper reasoning (this applies more to cottonpluff).

we do NOT indulge in senseless back and forth arguments, and we do not indulge in senselessly posting without a grain of proof.

cottonpluff, take this as a warning but we do not need posts made with a complete lack of credibility or attempt at any; IF YOU ARE NOT CERTAIN, MAKE SURE. put some more effort in.

ankiraealkvanmlkmman, you are less at fault, but next time just leave false information as is, mods will clean it up. furthermore, we won't have half a page of worthless arguing, that i know that you know will ultimately be fruitless.

Terrakion is not easy pickings for scarf Kyogre, Close Combat is an easy 2HKO, even without hazards.

SubSD Terrakion kicks ass, why the fuck would you stay in on giratina-o to leave yourself at 5%. Sub on Dialga, Stone Edge as Giratina-O comes in (over 50% most of the time), switch out after it breaks your sub, as Stone Edge would KO they're most likely to Shadow Sneak. Substitute also provides the safety blanket that double dance doesn't, people DO leave Ferrothorn in on Terrakion to Gyro Ball.

Okay i dont mind using SubSD. I mean it doesnt make too much of a difference. Ho-oh actually doesnt kill our team that easily. It cant come in on anything safely. Remember Reshiram has outrage, Xatu has Reflect and then Arceus can roar it away although it wont like being burned. Also I am sorry about the argument but I just couldnt stand someone trying to prove me wrong with false information. I didnt know that mods clean that part up, hopefully it wont happen next time.
Why do we deprive our team from using hazards? We are supposed to build a team around an underrated Pokemon/Set like Flame Charge Reshiram. Its especially annoying to handle darkrai/deoxys-A and things with focus sash in general. Kyogre keeps switching out without taking damage. BTW we dont need Paradancer Groudon. A fourth move like overheat would be better in place of swords dance. I found a bulkier spread better. The spread should be like: Max HP/defense investment to take two scarf outrages/rest in special defence.

Okay i dont mind using SubSD. I mean it doesnt make too much of a difference. Ho-oh actually doesnt kill our team that easily. It cant come in on anything safely. Remember Reshiram has outrage, Xatu has Reflect and then Arceus can roar it away although it wont like being burned. Also I am sorry about the argument but I just couldnt stand someone trying to prove me wrong with false information. I didnt know that mods clean that part up, hopefully it wont happen next time.
Why do we deprive our team from using hazards? We are supposed to build a team around an underrated Pokemon/Set like Flame Charge Reshiram. Its especially annoying to handle darkrai/deoxys-A and things with focus sash in general. Kyogre keeps switching out without taking damage. BTW we dont need Paradancer Groudon. A fourth move like overheat would be better in place of swords dance. I found a bulkier spread better. The spread should be like: Max HP/defense investment to take two scarf outrages/rest in special defence.

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Actually the idea of the CCAT was to make a team deprived of hazards. It later turned into a Flame Charge Reshiram team that was deprived of hazards. Ho-oh's sun boosted Sacred Fires and Brave Birds harassing the team aren't nice and we need reflect to help tank everything. Xatu can't safely switch in to it (if it gets burned its 2HKOed behind reflect, if its using LO it always gets 2HKOed behind reflect even without burn, without reflect LO Ho-oh may OHKO), waterceus and Reshiram take a hefty chunk from Brave Bird. Even if we were to Roar it out, the lack of Stealthy Rocks would just delay the inevitable and Outrage is supressed by Sub + Roost.

Choiced Ogre get annoyed and parahaxed by Waterceus, It'll take time to damage it (it likes to run away from GK :() but that neuters its offensive capabilities a bunch besides it won't get free switch-in's unless something dies. Only problematic one is CroKyogre since it can beat waterceus but it does near nonexistent damage in sun, scarfed tickles waterceus, specs can't 2HKO unless thunder and if that happens Groudon can reset sun and start Parahaxing and later Swords dancing.

For an HO team, defensive Groudon loses momentum which is sad.

Anyways my vote is...

Choice Scarf Heatran
SubSD Terrakion
Choice Scarf Jirachi

CS Heatran > all due to ability to annoy Ho-oh, Sub SD terrakion comes in next in case we end up in trouble against rain stall (abusing great walls are fun :D), lastly CS rachi's power is really underwhelming and I really just don't like it :(.

So people I heard that soul dew is realeased? Does this mean we can use latias? Its not dead weight like Arceus-Water. It will also free up an Arceus slot.
EDIT: Furai confirmed that its released. So we could change the team around. Ho-oh with regenerator is released. Multiscale Lugia is released. Can we let things settle down and wait for the other things that may be released. I mean now we have the Kyurem formes. So I think we should wait for a few days and change the team accordingly. Just realised after typing this that the new pokemon have problems with our team anyway. With regenerator, Ho-Oh can no longer stall stone edge pp.

Okay, I know I might be a bit harsh here, but I really don't like the look of that Water Arceus set. I don't have much problem with Water Arceus on a sun team per se, but the more I look at it, the more I see a crappy Water Arceus trying to do what Grass Arceus would have done. Why are we not just using Grass Arceus if we want to use that set? Seriously, I really don't understand this set:

This thing has a stronger Grass Knot, a Ground immunity and a Thunder resistance. I know we hate using Grass Arceus on a sun team because it makes you complete Fire-bait, but the Water Arceus set we're using isn't doing any better. What does it do against Heatran with Judgement as the third option on the third move? Oh yeah, it's Water Arceus that loses against Heatran, how embarassing. It still has no chance against Ho-oh, or opposing Reshiram. I detest Grass Arceus as much as every other Ubers battler, but redressing what is clearly a Grass Arceus set as Water Arceus does absolutely nothing to help our cause.

Yes, I know Latias is available now due to BW2 and we'll make the changes needed, and I hope the removal of Water Arceus is one of them.

Before we make any changes driven by the BW2 enthusiasm, let's hold on. The metagame is just starting to evolve, lets at least let it settle. While I do like Latias, and I think it would fit well, many other new Pokemon could fit.

I am also with shrang about Arceus, Waterceus really didn't do much for me as I play tested it. I do hate using Grassceus in a sun team, so it might be the best to wait for BW2 metagame.

latias is clearly a better choice. this team should be finished with bw 1 in mind though, as if we built for bw 2 we'd have to restructure the entire team (latias > arceus, use another arceus forme, etc)

I also wouldn't mind sticking with this CCAT to BW; as I said, BW2 is just starting to develop, and is a good material for CCAT3. Should we put up a vote? Because that's just Poppy's and mine opinions...

With Regenerator Ho-Oh released, I see it on every team. The reason I didnt care about Ho-Oh before is because it was rare and people saw it as a burden as getting Stealth Rock up would mean the end of its usefulness - i.e that was then, this is now. Sticking to BW1 btw. Ferrothorn sucks in a sun team and before you start posting here, remember that this team should not use any hazards.

It was a steel example, however, Scarf Heatran might be a good replacement for LO Terrakion, since it was one of our choices. And it can also stop it from releasing an Blue Flare or Fusion FLare, if it doesnt get BF