K-12 school systems aren't exactly known for allowing absolute freedom of speech or expression from students and this story has been rehashed time and time again across the country. Only thing new here is the Planned Parenthood angle.

This is little more than a wind up a story for the professionally outraged.

K-12 school systems aren't exactly known for allowing absolute freedom of speech or expression from students and this story has been rehashed time and time again across the country. Only thing new here is the Planned Parenthood angle.

This is little more than a wind up a story for the professionally outraged.

There will be total silence from the right on this. They demand that Neo-Nazis and White Nationalists have free speech at schools, but a Planned Parenthood sticker? Hell no!

and what would happen at your work if a person put a Trump or Reagan sticker on their vehicle. Or on the vehicle that was being provided to them.

Because this is a private Catholic School they can require whatever they want. Now if it were a public school then your argument would be spot on.

But, just as most private schools have dress codes and appearance codes regarding hair etc. The private school is 100% within their rights. The fact that they are giving the student and her parents so much time shows they are not having a knee jerk reaction.

If it were my kid and I was spending the no doubt more than 10k a year to see to it she got a decent education. I would tell her to protest on her own time, that she was at that prestigious school to get an education and to qualify for a top college.

_________________"Melania, another whore with no integrity in the WH"-Ike Bana 1/31/18

I don’t agree but I think that a Roman Church school can most certainly say said sticker can’t stay. That being said this is indicative of what I believe is a decrease in not simply mainstream denominations but evangelical as well. While some evangelicals will use the home school route it would not surprise me that overall religious schools/schooling as a whole is dropping.

Btw, this is the danger the religious right is courting under the guise of religion in the public square. Once that rock is turned over religion, in particular the Abrahamic faiths, would be subject to discussion of theology.

They sure as hell don’t want that.

_________________bird's theorem-"we the people" are stupid.

"No one is so foolish as to choose war over peace. In peace sons bury their fathers, in war fathers bury their sons." - Herodotus

and what would happen at your work if a person put a Trump or Reagan sticker on their vehicle. Or on the vehicle that was being provided to them.

Wow, that's all you got.

What would happen if an NRA employee had stickers that were anti-gun?

Quote:

Because this is a private Catholic School they can require whatever they want. Now if it were a public school then your argument would be spot on.

Just like Liberty University can tell their students who they can date (and what color they are)?

Quote:

But, just as most private schools have dress codes and appearance codes regarding hair etc. The private school is 100% within their rights. The fact that they are giving the student and her parents so much time shows they are not having a knee jerk reaction.

If it were my kid and I was spending the no doubt more than 10k a year to see to it she got a decent education. I would tell her to protest on her own time, that she was at that prestigious school to get an education and to qualify for a top college.

Have you ever spent money on your kid's education? Did they go to private schools or public schools?

I will note the SCOTUS' rulings on this issue have mainly dealt with public schools. In public schools, there's a three pronged test:

[from Wiki]In the school context, the United States Supreme Court has identified three major relevant considerations:[6]

1. The extent to which the student speech in question poses a substantial threat of disruption (Tinker v. Des Moines Indep. Cmty. Sch. Dist.).2. Whether the speech is offensive to prevailing community standards (Bethel School District v. Fraser).3. Whether the speech, if allowed as part of a school activity or function, would be contrary to the basic educational mission of the school (Hazelwood v. Kuhlmeier).

I guess a Catholic private school could try and invoke tests 2 and 3. I might disagree with how a PP sticker goes against 3, but I can see how the nuns at the school might argue it.

_________________-- Tis an ill wind that blows no minds.Malaclypse the Younger

I will note the SCOTUS' rulings on this issue have mainly dealt with public schools. In public schools, there's a three pronged test:

[from Wiki]In the school context, the United States Supreme Court has identified three major relevant considerations:[6]

1. The extent to which the student speech in question poses a substantial threat of disruption (Tinker v. Des Moines Indep. Cmty. Sch. Dist.).2. Whether the speech is offensive to prevailing community standards (Bethel School District v. Fraser).3. Whether the speech, if allowed as part of a school activity or function, would be contrary to the basic educational mission of the school (Hazelwood v. Kuhlmeier).

I guess a Catholic private school could try and invoke tests 2 and 3. I might disagree with how a PP sticker goes against 3, but I can see how the nuns at the school might argue it.

Imo, subject to Jdogg's far more legal expert analysis than mine, Catholic schools likely don't think that they are subject to the tests because they are religious in nature. This can be seen in the diocese where Mrs. Bird teaches. In their contracts they are not referred to as teachers but teacher-ministers. This means that they can be terminated for violation of diocesan policy regarding gays such as attending a marriage between two gays including if one of the people to be married is a child of the teacher or a sibling of the teacher.

This is very fragile ground that is being walked by both sides. Personally I don't think that the church, any church, should be able to limit speech/actions based upon those three tests that you mentioned. Further I think their ground is less firm if the religious population of the school is less, and far less, than 50% of the student population.

The other side is that free exercise may likely be viewed as the church having the right to put forth certain doctrine and the scotus would be forced to choice between free speech and free exercise. I don't know where that would land.

_________________bird's theorem-"we the people" are stupid.

"No one is so foolish as to choose war over peace. In peace sons bury their fathers, in war fathers bury their sons." - Herodotus

and what would happen at your work if a person put a Trump or Reagan sticker on their vehicle. Or on the vehicle that was being provided to them.

Because this is a private Catholic School they can require whatever they want. Now if it were a public school then your argument would be spot on.

But, just as most private schools have dress codes and appearance codes regarding hair etc. The private school is 100% within their rights. The fact that they are giving the student and her parents so much time shows they are not having a knee jerk reaction.

If it were my kid and I was spending the no doubt more than 10k a year to see to it she got a decent education. I would tell her to protest on her own time, that she was at that prestigious school to get an education and to qualify for a top college.

I work with people that have "Infowars" stickers on their cars....... and get their news from 4Chan...., fuck off.

_________________24 hours in a day, 24 beers in a case. Coincidence.....I think not!

Please clarify. Don't you mean that during work, or in this case school hours they can restrict what you say and do. But, on your own or free time you had carte blanche.

What did you not understand? As an employee, during work hours at SAF, I could not be critical of the Pope, who by virtue of his position as head of the Catholic Church. I could however be critical of policy. As an employee I could not critical of the Holy See. Part of it is the fact I am Non-Catholic and do not hold that kind of control in a very good light.

Now, on at least two occasions I met the Vicar General of Order of Friar Minor, the most senior representative of the OFM at the Vatican. He was a gentleman with a really wicked sense of humor. I was invited to take communion from him, but pointed out I was lapsed Methodist and he smiled, "That's OK then. Just don't tell the Pope," I laughed and he moved on.

When then San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsome (Current Lieutenant Governor and running for Governor), started to allow Same Marriages the San Francisco Archdiocese was completely opposed. Our then Executive Director of SAF, a Franciscan Priest made a point of participating at a Same Sex Marriage. The Catholic Church was opposed to Same Sex Marriage, but several of Franciscan Fathers officiated at Same Sex Unions. I attended several Same Sex Marriages of co-workers at SAF and did so with the knowledge and persmission of the Management of SAF.

I could not say what I thought of Pope. JPII had a host of problems. I still think the ban on Female Priests is steeped in 12th. Century Bullshit.

I have very high hopes that one day soon, the Catholic Church will be dragged kicking and screaming out of the 15th. Century mindset it has.

The Pope is not infallible. Benedict was a member of Hitler Youth. Putting on the cowl of the Pope does not man perfect.

I did not work at SAF because I was ever religious, I worked there because I wanted to help others. SAF serves the Homeless and at risk of Homeless. It was never the Religious Aspect that drove me work at SAF. Far from it. It was people.

_________________"I don't stand by anything." President Donald J. Trump to CBS Political Editor John Dickerson on Monday May 1, 2017.

Religious Educational Institutions have the right to regulate what their students wear, but do not have the right to regulate free speech, even if that speech is contrary to church dogma.

The student is well within her rights to engage in free speech, even though the Catholic Church is opposed to that speech.

13+Years working for the Order of Friars Minor (O.F.M., Franciscan Order) taught me a few things, including what my former employer could and could not do which included I could and could wear or say.

While I, as an employee could say during work hours that the Pople Sucks, I could say that I disgreed with him on Gay Marriage.

The School cannot tell a student what to think on a personal level. I hope she stands by her beliefs. The School is way out of line.

I'm not certain you are correct Marin.

I believe that since private schools are not the government, they can regulate speech...certainly some forms of it. I think even a public school can even regulate speech of students to the extent that the speech causes disruption.

An employer certainly can regulate appropriate dress in the workplace (I'm sure there's a 'reasonable' test), and, I would suspect, some forms of speech. The law is not intended to 'tell students what to think' (some may say that's a role of a school however) but it certainly is meant to place action within certain parameters.

I did not work at SAF because I was ever religious, I worked there because I wanted to help others. SAF serves the Homeless and at risk of Homeless. It was never the Religious Aspect that drove me work at SAF. Far from it. It was people.

Good point...and I know that to be true of may people working for religious social service organizations. Most/many of the organizations don't care, to the extent that you are not publicly undermining them and that you are doing decent work.

The Pope is not infallible. Benedict was a member of Hitler Youth. Putting on the cowl of the Pope does not man perfect.

Papal infallibility only refers to ex cathedra encyclicals. People closer to the Catholic church than I am might know the last time there was one of those. Wiki seems to think 1950. That's a loooooooooooong time ago for us mere mortals, though it's an eye blink in the time scale the church seems to be on. The Pope is literally invoking the Petrine Succession, speaking directly from a line that [doctrinally, anyway] dates from St. Peter to Jesus and therefore straight to God. Even then, I think it's intended to resolve doctrinal conflicts, not to decree that, say, it's going to rain Wednesday or that everyone should bet this horse in the fifth race at Pontifex Downs.

What did you not understand? As an employee, during work hours at SAF, I could not be critical of the Pope, who by virtue of his position as head of the Catholic Church. I could however be critical of policy. As an employee I could not critical of the Holy See. Part of it is the fact I am Non-Catholic and do not hold that kind of control in a very good light.

Now, on at least two occasions I met the Vicar General of Order of Friar Minor, the most senior representative of the OFM at the Vatican. He was a gentleman with a really wicked sense of humor. I was invited to take communion from him, but pointed out I was lapsed Methodist and he smiled, "That's OK then. Just don't tell the Pope," I laughed and he moved on.

When then San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsome (Current Lieutenant Governor and running for Governor), started to allow Same Marriages the San Francisco Archdiocese was completely opposed. Our then Executive Director of SAF, a Franciscan Priest made a point of participating at a Same Sex Marriage. The Catholic Church was opposed to Same Sex Marriage, but several of Franciscan Fathers officiated at Same Sex Unions. I attended several Same Sex Marriages of co-workers at SAF and did so with the knowledge and persmission of the Management of SAF.

I could not say what I thought of Pope. JPII had a host of problems. I still think the ban on Female Priests is steeped in 12th. Century Bullshit.

I have very high hopes that one day soon, the Catholic Church will be dragged kicking and screaming out of the 15th. Century mindset it has.

The Pope is not infallible. Benedict was a member of Hitler Youth. Putting on the cowl of the Pope does not man perfect.

I did not work at SAF because I was ever religious, I worked there because I wanted to help others. SAF serves the Homeless and at risk of Homeless. It was never the Religious Aspect that drove me work at SAF. Far from it. It was people.

Thanks for the clarification we are on pretty much the same page when it comes to the Catholic Church.

_________________"Melania, another whore with no integrity in the WH"-Ike Bana 1/31/18

Papal infallibility only refers to ex cathedra encyclicals. People closer to the Catholic church than I am might know the last time there was one of those. Wiki seems to think 1950. That's a loooooooooooong time ago for us mere mortals, though it's an eye blink in the time scale the church seems to be on. The Pope is literally invoking the Petrine Succession, speaking directly from a line that [doctrinally, anyway] dates from St. Peter to Jesus and therefore straight to God. Even then, I think it's intended to resolve doctrinal conflicts, not to decree that, say, it's going to rain Wednesday or that everyone should bet this horse in the fifth race at Pontifex Downs.

Iirc, infallibility as regards dogma only came to officially exist during the 19th century. It had to do with particular doctrines regarding Mary, specifically the doctrine of Assumption of Mary which is not scripturally based imo. There may have been other Marian doctrinal issues at the time as well. I can’t remember where I read about this. It might have been Bart Ehrman or someone else.

_________________bird's theorem-"we the people" are stupid.

"No one is so foolish as to choose war over peace. In peace sons bury their fathers, in war fathers bury their sons." - Herodotus

Thanks for the clarification we are on pretty much the same page when it comes to the Catholic Church.

White Evangelical conservatives have legendarily despised Catholics, to the point of joining the Klan to lynch them.

Not to mention the laws white Evangelical conservatives passed against them.

I notice that a lot of you like them, though, when it means mining that vote against the gays and the abortion.

_________________Please try to remember that what they believe, as well as what they do and cause you to endure does not testify to your inferiority but to their inhumanity~ James Baldwin, The Fire Next Time

Who is online

You cannot post new topics in this forumYou cannot reply to topics in this forumYou cannot edit your posts in this forumYou cannot delete your posts in this forumYou cannot post attachments in this forum