If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

The photos you will see below are of a blown S65 V8. Even the novice enthusiast can glance over the photos and see that something clearly was not right. So who is at fault? Is it ESS for a sloppy product? Is is it the owner for pushing his setup beyond where he should have? Is it perhaps a bad batch of fuel? Is it perhaps a freak accident? Is it perhaps a combination? The point being when you supercharge a high revving V8 that comes from the factory naturally aspirated you are taking risks.

No company is expected to cover user error. If this is a case of the user pushing too much boost it is clearly his own fault. However, if this is the case of a product that has not undergone significant testing and without the necessary quality tuning to accompany it that would mean blame is not in the hands of the user.

BimmerBoost is quick to point out there are hundreds of ESS supercharged cars on the road logging thousands of miles and running well. BimmerBoost is also quick to point out there are not thousands of miles on VT3 built motor setups and ESS does not officially even offer such a setup. How some users end up with these setups that one can not even officially purchase is up to you to figure out.

When modifying cars there is a certain risk involved. Especially when pushing past double the horsepower if not more than a car had off the assembly line. It is important to work with a company that will work with you. Somebody that understands that pushing the limit comes with risks and there may be errors that are not anyone's fault. You live, you learn, you move on, and try to address whatever needs to be addressed.

Below you will find the owner's take and you will also find the take of ESS-Tuning. Read it all and come to your own conclusion. Additionally, if you wish to push the limit keep in mind you should choose a company that will work with you and address any problems for your benefit as well as their own. There is a difference between supercharging and tuning an M3 and building the M3 S65 V8, supercharging it, and tuning it. If you make the wrong decisions you may end up in a finger pointing game with nothing positive being accomplished.

Owner's Take:

"It's a long story and the thread's title is self-speaking but I want to share that shitty situation I've been dropped in these "Happy New Year" days....

My car is E90 M3 2008 with DCT - well known in Russia (Moscow Unlim 500+) and Europe being the fastest ESS car there.

The story started in October 2009 when my car became the world's 1st production E9X M3 with ESS SC kit. The milleage was 13,000 miles at that moment. The car was DD and going through lots of pulleys and soft modifications, I was running VT2-625 with 92mm pulley (which is equal to VT2-650) for 2.5 years when in May 2012 at 67,000 miles the engine decided to blow... Piston is 7th cylinder was broken somehow and 3 inches hole appeared in the block...

That time I bought low-milleage (less that 1,000 miles) used 2011 engine and installed it. In May 2013 I installed VT2-650 spec crank pulley and 94mm SC pulley which resulted to almost 9 psi boost. That setup was used for 1 day Race Event (1 Mile race) only with 104 RON race fuel. After that day the car was reverted to normal VT2-650 specs.

However, in 2 weeks after that day this new engine also decided to blow, being used for 13,000 miles only... The hole in the block appeared in the 4th cylinder...

No need to say that the car was always serviced with love and oil was changed every 3,000 miles and fuel used was 98+ RON...

So, 2 engines gone is 1 year((((((((((

That time I agreed with ESS to send the car as it is to Norway from Russia for full VT3 build... That was late June 2013.

31 October 2013, after lots of problems with availability of BMW OEM spare parts, I received the car!!! However, it was tested on dyno for 50 runs and only half day of driving after the build cause it was very cold already in Norway...But the car was running absolutely clean during that testing (per ESS understanding) and Hans delivered the car to me!!!

I was very happy and started my long trip to Moscow (1,500 miles) which I considered the best way for breaking in the engine on good european fuel...

On my trip to Moscow engine RPMs were no more than 4,000 - I am very conservative in breaking in procedures.... When I came to Moscow, I changed the oil and decided to go and make 2-3 runs from 40 to 250 kmh to understand the difference...

In the 1st run the car was extremely fast and was spinning the wheels at 2-3, 3-4 and 4-5 gear changes like it was lauch control from the stand point... even spinning the wheels so badly and hitting the RPMS limiter at all gears 100-200 kmh time was 5,7sec which is almost 0,9 sec faster than my VT2-650 best summer time on DRs!!!

I decided to start againg and at 4th gear at 6000 RPMS I felt some "boom-boom" sound in the exhaust and little jerking during the acceleration... That time I stopped testing and the next day the car was taken to a trailer to be delievered to my native town (1,000 miles from Moscow)...

I went to BMW dealer for diagnostic of any potential problem and had conversations with ESS on that... Nothing was found, except for some instability in fuel pressure regulator work, and ESS sent me out that regulator which I was waiting for 3 weeks from US... In the meantime, I was driving the car moderately and found the thing that the car was starting jerking at any speed if I floor the pedal more that 1/4, but at the same time could easily heat 270 kmh if pushing the peda moderatedly....

The whole milleage by the day of receiving new fuel pressure regulator and new sparks and coils (ESS recommendation to change) was 400 miles... Also, I ordered and received by that day Awron Gauge with full options...

However, when we let off the sparks, the following picture was with the spark from 4th cylinder... It was melted.... All other sparks were OK...

We measure the compression ration in all the cylinders and.... 10.5-10.7 in all except 4th cylinder - 8.8....(((

So, we installed all the new plugs, coils and FPR, and also fully discassembled the manifold for installation of EAS stack for boost gauge, then assemble all back and I leaved the dealer for testing... The car was running sooo clean that day on mid RPMS and fast driving!!! So, I decided to go full throttle...

1st run from 3rd gear from 40 to 230 kmh was clean and the time from 100 to 200 kmh was VT3 time...) I stopped the car and tried againg but from 2nd gear from 30 kmh. And.... at 7000 RPMS of that 2nd gear the car started jerking and afterwards working like 2 or 3 cylinders are not working.... (((

On that conditions I drove to the dealer (15 miles)... So, the whole milleage after changing the sparks etc was 70 miles. We took off the spark from that 4 th cylinder and it was melted the same way We measured the compression in that cylinder and it was 5.... Changing the spark did not help at all and the car did not work properly....

I decided to take it to the trailer to Moscow fro investigation by letting off the heads to understand the problem in detail... That was discovered:

1) From the side of 1-4 cylinders:

> burn-through of cylinder head gasket near 3-4 cylinder (2.7sm approx hole)
> scratches in 3 and 4 cylinder
> broken piston in 4th cylinder around the bottom of piston and not good piston in 3rd cylinder

2) From the side of 5-8 cylinders:

> scratches in 5 and 8 cylinders

The guys told me that the traces of detonation could be found in all 8 cylinders...

Fotos attached...

The only thing I am doing for last 7 days is crying in the situation of full silence and absence of support from anywhere"

ESS-Tuning perspective:

"Sergi

You have been told for a very long time you have no warranty or support on your kits because you have always modified them with additional boost going back to your very first kit which ran a 92mm pulley. The VT2-625 runs a 96mm pulley with much different software than a 650 kit. You should never run a VT2-625 with a 92mm pulley unless you intend to take full responsability. AJ has always told you that your motors will blow if you run more than intended boost while racing at your events. Your 2008 car was over boosted and lasted 67,000 of hardcore racing. It lasted much longer than it really should have, you were lucky.

Your second motor you ran the VT2-650 crank and the same 92mm pulley which generates close to 12 psi of boost. This is far beyond what we run on our production kit. Off the shelf VT2-650 runs a 99mm SC pulley and generates 8 psi which is max you can run. Even if you claim 94mm with the 650 crank this is much smaller than what we spec and still generates close to 11 psi, you knew this at the time.

We do not sell a VT3 product to the public currently, there is no such product on our website and we do not offer support for such a product currently. You were informed that if we built you a prototype high boost setup there would be no support on it. You also picked up the vehicle without allowing us to do any road testing. You were informed by AJ at the time that we did not have proper time or road conditions due to weather to do any extended testing but you insisted on taking delivery anyway. You later contacted AJ complaining of hesitation on acceleration and a diagnostic report showing a failed 02 sensor. You were told NOT to drive the car at all until you could install gauges to monitor fuel delivery / AFR's which you did not do. You decided to continue driving the car anyway despite AJ's instructions up to speeds 180 mph according to your email. Your motor failed after you were warned to not drive it. Iím not surprised the motor gave out considering you most likely had a fuel delivery issue like a failed pump pickup or fuel pressure regulator and maybe a bad 02 sensor with continued high load use.

We told you before the motor blew to send the car in for inspection and you refused. You said you wanted to do it local. After your motor failed Hans told you over the phone last week to get the motor inspected locally then and follow up so we could see what could be done. You just emailed AJ and Hans yesterday with the results. Why would you make a post saying no one has followed up with you when we just got your email this weekend and we offered to help you out before the motor ever failed?

This is a very good reminder as to why we tell customers to NOT modify our products and run more boost than designed and to follow our instructions at all times. Hopefully customers who currently are doing so or are considering doing so will learn from your mistake and not run more boost than we design the kit to run."

"Again, just to make this 100% clear: There is a very good reason we set the maximum boost pressure the way we do in the various kit stages. We do not leave massive amounts of safe power on the table as some people seem to think. If you increase boost over our standard settings, there will be a much greater risk of failure as Sergei has demonstrated. The fact that the bolt-on 625 kit ran for 67.000 miles with a massively overboosting 92mm pulley is actually much longer than expected.

When Sergei was getting ready for the Moscow unlimited 1 mile race on his second engine he asked me what I thought of running the 650 crank/92mm SC combo, and I specifically told him that he may get through the race but that the engine will with very high probability be damaged in a short period of time. The stock S65 simply can not take 11-12 PSI. He made his race, and the car ran for another week or two before caving in -as expected. The cost of a new engine is the price he chose to pay to run 4PSI overboost at his event.

When it comes to the VT3, it is critical that fuel delivery is monitored at all times. If any part of the new stand-alone, high capacity fuel system fails the engine will be damaged in a matter of seconds at high load. In Sergei's case with a brand new VT3 prototype setup being installed, I told him that I strongly recommend leaving the car with us for 6-8 weeks after assembly to properly test it in various conditions. He did not have time for this and forced us to deliver the car 1 day after assembly with only a few dyno pulls and a short road test in 35F, wet roads conditions on it's back. He then chose to ignore my specific instructions on not operating the car hard without O2 monitoring equipment installed. I specifically recommended the EAS gauge setup. He chose to ignore all warnings, and he denied to send us the car back when he experienced high load acceleration hesitations and a primary O2 sensor on bank 2 error code. Instead he kept driving the car without any monitoring equipment until the engine eventually had massive failure due to fuel starvation combined with high load operation.

We received the email of the engine condition yesterday from Sergei, and my initial plan was to simply have the car sent back to us in Norway as previously instructed and sleeve the block/install new pistons and go through the entire fuel system/O2 sensor system again to find the error that most likely has developed during his 2000 miles of use as the car operated and dynoed correctly before we delivered it. This is a relatively quick and easy fix that does not cost very much, however we do not and we never will give any kind of warranty on high-boost custom setups as the chance of failure is very high unless the driver is attentive and has proper measurement gauges installed. The VT3 is a race setup, and it should only be used by people who are aware of it's risks and high chance of long term problems due to the massive power delivery and the complex nature of the system. Sergei was informed over and over again of these risks, both on overboosting his previous VT2 kits as well as on the prototype VT3 setup.

Sergei's VT3 engine build, boost and software is identical to Drew's setup. The only difference that keeps Drew's still running strong is the awareness of the driver when operating such a complex and delicate beast. If an O2 sensor goes bad, back off it! If one of the fuel pumps stops working correctly, back off it! Follow these simple rules and the VT3 will live for a long time as Drew has demonstrated."

The whole tune/software thing is bogus from ESS. Roman refused to assist myself and AR design when we originally decided to go with the 650 kit. We managed a pathetic 520hp and 6psi (due to 6000ft) elevation, and when asked, we were told anything else would cause the car to run very lean and unsafe. Well, we made some inhouse changes to the hardware, boost up to 9psi and the DME/tune adapts and added the fuel as needed.

The whole tune/software thing is bogus from ESS. Roman refused to assist myself and AR design when we originally decided to go with the 650 kit. We managed a pathetic 520hp and 6psi (due to 6000ft) elevation, and when asked, we were told anything else would cause the car to run very lean and unsafe. Well, we made some inhouse changes to the hardware, boost up to 9psi and the DME/tune adapts and added the fuel as needed.

They have the more Take it or leave it approach LOL. Once they sell a kit, they got the money it's done. Your problem now to figure out what you want to do to void that warranty hahaha. You have two beautiful cars brotha.

The whole tune/software thing is bogus from ESS. Roman refused to assist myself and AR design when we originally decided to go with the 650 kit. We managed a pathetic 520hp and 6psi (due to 6000ft) elevation, and when asked, we were told anything else would cause the car to run very lean and unsafe. Well, we made some inhouse changes to the hardware, boost up to 9psi and the DME/tune adapts and added the fuel as needed.

Similar situation here; Denver area. Probably 99% of their customer base is closer to sea level.
So, we do what we need to do, get the lecture and dismissal from Roman, and move on.

I feel bad for the OP, but being a shop owner that had made many turbo kits for people, whether one off or multiples that increase the power potential of the engines two sometimes three fold. The power is intoxicating, but only for so long, then people slowly start itching for more. Usually its the magic of the MBC, or EBC you just turn up a few more PSI and voila your itch is scratched with some more power, for SC kit you do it with the pulleys, what they do not realize is, there is a ceiling and once they cross it, its usually a broken ring land or hole in the block they find themselves with. This usually occurs when customers who really have no business turning up the boost do so, either to scratch the itch or because they plan to run a street race, or race event. In either scenario how can the kit manufacture be held responsible if OP blows up the their engine? From what I have read here on both sides, it seems the customer was told in advance what boost to run and he ran what he wanted with possible questionable tuning. That is the perfect recipe for 3 blown motors, cut and dry.

For real? They guy that had a build thread last year on M3post? I think he finally got a perma-ban on BP for continuous bashing of Gintani.

Karma

He (M33) was on a temp ban, posted this update to his VT3 build (8/13/2013) and then was put on a permabanned

I know its been some time since I posted about my build but basically the motor was complete and broken in, we were trying a different fuel system outside what ESS recommended and what Drew was running which in theory was a simple design but not a good one , with that being said I ended up melting a spark plug which scored the cylinder wall. The motor was pulled out & opened up to only find that the block needed to be bore'd .5mm over along with having to order new custom sized pistons from Mahle.

Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech

I feel bad for the OP, but being a shop owner that had made many turbo kits for people, whether one off or multiples that increase the power potential of the engines two sometimes three fold. The power is intoxicating, but only for so long, then people slowly start itching for more. Usually its the magic of the MBC, or EBC you just turn up a few more PSI and voila your itch is scratched with some more power, for SC kit you do it with the pulleys, what they do not realize is, there is a ceiling and once they cross it, its usually a broken ring land or hole in the block they find themselves with. This usually occurs when customers who really have no business turning up the boost do so, either to scratch the itch or because they plan to run a street race, or race event. In either scenario how can the kit manufacture be held responsible if OP blows up the their engine? From what I have read here on both sides, it seems the customer was told in advance what boost to run and he ran what he wanted with possible questionable tuning. That is the perfect recipe for 3 blown motors, cut and dry.

I mean, you're at least a hardware provider. You're not a tuner and from what I know, you're not building motors combined with your turbo setups. While the owner def should be held at full blame if he was upping pulleys beyond what was recommended, I feel that ESS is at some fault for releasing an incomplete build back into the owners' hands. But I remember that back in the past, ESS has had some "issues" with pulley sizing/boost and what they advertise vs. what some people are running.

Reading the thread it seems like it's turned into finger pointing, OP vs. ESS. OP blaming ESS for selling a junk product that failed, and ESS blaming the OP for modifying their product/ignorant owner.

I can agree if the car was not fully tested, you never turn it back over to the OP unless they have agreed before hand to be part of a testing program and all those bases are covered. I have just seen to many blown motors from boost greed to blame a kit for blowing a motor, including some of my own....

^LMAO that's true..... For all the bragging ESS does about the VT3 setup, you figure it'd be A) a little more reliable and B) more sorted out.

You've got Drew who's regularly entering the car in Shift Sector events, and complaining that the manifold was lifting off. The AFR data posted by BLUDVL on his 683 WHP dyno is pretty hideous (car runs closer to 13 until 6.5-7.6k it runs 12.5, and above that it finally his 12).

It's a shame Gintani hasn't released more Stage 3/Built Motor Data, but I'm sure Sticky will provide plenty of dyno/performance data on his YSI S65 once it's 100%.... Or we'll just wait for the guy here on the East Coast with the same setup (6MT) to finish his break-in and run full boost in the spring

Roman:
Some early 650 kits ran 97mm top side and some had different crank sizes. There were also some early 650's that ran the stock crank and smaller SC pulley. The current kit with it's current provided crank pulley runs a 99mm SC pulley. Dispite the configuration as long as you are making 8 psi that is all that matters.

Comments like this clearly show the underhanded and widespread use of a variety of different spec kits they sold. IMHO that statement right there justifies all the shady practices they have been accused of doing for years as far as what pulleys run what psi and produce what horsepower.. shameful how they do business, but glad its all coming to light

Comments like this clearly show the underhanded and widespread use of a variety of different spec kits they sold. IMHO that statement right there justifies all the shady practices they have been accused of doing for years as far as what pulleys run what psi and produce what horsepower.. shameful how they do business, but glad its all coming to light

Wow, just wow on this comment. I have no knowledge of anything ESS, nor anyone within the compan,y or any of their products, but as kits are produced over time, you learn and things change, just like with turbo kits. You can do a redesign of say a manifold or piping if you find you can get better results with a different set up. Take the FFTEC turbo kits for example, they are now on their 3rd manifold revision for the kit, does this make them shady, and underhanded? Of course not, it just means that their first go worked, but they decided a redesign would make the kit even better. Nothing wrong with that, so some early ESS kits had a different pulley, and some of the cranks were different in the early kits than the later ones. That is pretty basic kit building, as you learn you progress and make changes as you progress. So since BMW had to redesign the HPFP some 4-5 times to finally get one that worked to everyones satisfaction all while they were in use on customers cars, they are shady and underhanded? As I said I have no idea who ESS really is from a business stand point, but changing things from early kits to later ones, in no way makes a shop, shady or underhanded. Period.

Wow, just wow on this comment. I have no knowledge of anything ESS, nor anyone within the compan,y or any of their products, but as kits are produced over time, you learn and things change, just like with turbo kits. You can do a redesign of say a manifold or piping if you find you can get better results with a different set up. Take the FFTEC turbo kits for example, they are now on their 3rd manifold revision for the kit, does this make them shady, and underhanded? Of course not, it just means that their first go worked, but they decided a redesign would make the kit even better. Nothing wrong with that, so some early ESS kits had a different pulley, and some of the cranks were different in the early kits than the later ones. That is pretty basic kit building, as you learn you progress and make changes as you progress. So since BMW had to redesign the HPFP some 4-5 times to finally get one that worked to everyones satisfaction all while they were in use on customers cars, they are shady and underhanded? As I said I have no idea who ESS really is from a business stand point, but changing things from early kits to later ones, in no way makes a shop, shady or underhanded. Period.

It does when it has been brought up by users and forum go'ers, and then violently denied that they ONLY sell a certain spec/size pulley setup for a certain kit.

Well here you are now with them saying they HAVE used various sizes of different pulleys, you have actual customers questioning why they have one size on their car, when the owner of the company stated they should have another. Then they back track and say it was all revisions and they are "fine". All while in the context of claiming another customer is out of warranty for overboosting when in fact he says that the owner again said via email that he was ok to run "A" spec pulleys for his setup.