" A short while ago you countered Peter's comment "Mythical Adam, literal Christ â€“ doesn't add up" with the _OK button/Enter key_ metaphor. I gather, then, that you believe in a _mythical_ Adam. May I therefor inquire about his descendants - the Antediluvian Patriarchs - listed in Genesis 5. Are they also, in your view, mythical? And what about Adam's son, Abel, whom the Lord clearly supposed was a _real person_ (Mt.23:35, Lk.11:51)? Was the Lord misguided in his belief?"

you wrote,

"That's a difficult question to answer because we don't know. Christ may have been referring to these people figuratively, just as I might talk about what happened to Frodo, or Alice in Wonderland, or Christopher Robin as if they were real people, which doesn't imply that I actually believe they were real.
"I do not know about the historicity of Adam and the antedeluvian patriarchs. I think the most likely explanation is that they may well have been real historical characters, about which little was known, but to whom legends became attached, and acquired important meanings for us.

"My point about the OK button (metaphor) and the Enter key (literal) is that even everyday language has different levels of meaning, and can't necessarily be taken literally. Like when you say "my feet are killing me" do you mean it literally? Or "I've 101 things to do today". Or even "I'm starving - my stomach thinks my throat's cut". "

My response:
Iain,

I find your answer to these questions most depressing. You may remember, our Lord warned that "No man can serve two masters...". Why? Because the inevitable outcome is that "he will hold to (or love) the one, and despise (or hate) the other."(Mt.6:24) Can't you see that Darwinism behaves as a _cuckoo_ in the Christian 'nest'. Its inevitable characteristic, once installed, is to dominate and dictate the agenda in respect of what may, or may not, be accepted of the Judeo- Christian Scriptures. Thus, you have unwittingly become an accomplice of those forces whose declared aim is the destruction of the God's Word! If you can't trust the Lord in respect of Abel - whose father, Adam, must also have been 'flesh and blood' - what is there left of his (the Lord's) teaching that you can trust?!

A favourite hymn of mine has the refrain, "On Christ, the solid rock, I stand; all other ground is sinking sand."

Iain, in my view, you are forsaking the safety of that rock in order to placate a theory born of atheism. This can hardly be a sensible course for any Christian.

All who look to Jesus for salvation will surely accept the words of the Apostle Paul, "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;... " (Romans 3:23) - hence they will hardly be _insulted_ by my words.

No-one questions Romans 3:23. But what you're saying is that a specific instance of this is the (almost) universal opposition to your particular findings. You believe it to be objective evidence - others don't, and instead of listening to their objections and finding reasoned responses, all you seem to do is imply that they are mentally deficient. In fact in quoting Romans 3:23 you're going even further in saying that the refusal to accept your proposal is sinful. The charge of being insulting therefore stands unchanged.

We're all in the same boat in this respect, are we not?

Apparently you're not (with respect to the numerical findings) because you accept your findings as a miracle but all those on the list who don't are thereby sinful. You don't accept the possibility that you may be wrong.

I find the current situation admirably summed up in Britannica's definition of _cognitive dissonance_: it is "The mental conflict that occurs when beliefs or assumptions are contradicted by new information." However, I do not condemn a person for that unpleasant experience because, in other circumstances, I might well be a victim of the same.

Yes, you are. Like when I gave you the link to the Francis Collins article showing ample evidence for evolution. You just refused to accept it because it contradicted your prior beliefs.

Now, a little question for you. A short while ago you countered Peter's comment "Mythical Adam, literal Christ â€“ doesn't add up" with the _OK button/Enter key_ metaphor. I gather, then, that you believe in a _mythical_ Adam. May I therefor inquire about his descendants - the Antediluvian Patriarchs - listed in Genesis 5. Are they also, in your view, mythical? And what about Adam's son, Abel, whom the Lord clearly supposed was a _real person_ (Mt.23:35, Lk.11:51)? Was the Lord misguided in his belief?

That's a difficult question to answer because we don't know. Christ may have been referring to these people figuratively, just as I might talk about what happened to Frodo, or Alice in Wonderland, or Christopher Robin as if they were real people, which doesn't imply that I actually believe they were real.

I do not know about the historicity of Adam and the antedeluvian patriarchs. I think the most likely explanation is that they may well have been real historical characters, about which little was known, but to whom legends became attached, and acquired important meanings for us.

My point about the OK button (metaphor) and the Enter key (literal) is that even everyday language has different levels of meaning, and can't necessarily be taken literally. Like when you say "my feet are killing me" do you mean it literally? Or "I've 101 things to do today". Or even "I'm starving - my stomach thinks my throat's cut".

Iain

Vernon

www.whatabeginning.com

www.otherbiblecode.com

PS My eyes are no longer what they were, so for all further communication I would appreciate your using a larger font.

Thanks for these observations, Iain. However, you keep referring to my associating the non-acceptance of my findings with some acute form of 'wickedness' in the person concerned. I don't believe I've ever suggested that; it is most certainly completely foreign to my thinking. Possibly you have in mind something that I've expressed badly somewhere along the line?

Well right here in your new web page is the kind of thing I meant:

You wrote in "The Anatomy of a Miracle":

a.. That there is a potentially fatal flaw in man's mental faculties!
It manifests itself here as an immediate and adverse reaction to objective evidence that glorifies God, and is not detectable by the normal investigative techniques of psychology; invariably, its effect is to cause mankind to construct and live in a world of make-believe; to suppress questions relating to the deepest issues of life; and, at any price, to avoid facing up to the truth concerning the 'How?' and the 'Why?' of existence.

In other words, (or so it seems to me) you seem to be saying that anyone who doesn't accept your claim of a "standing miracle" is mentally defective, and those of us trying to do objective science are living in a world of make-believe. I do think that most people on this list who read that paragraph are going to find it pretty insulting. You've got to accept that the reason people question your findings is because they are scientists & that's what scientists do, and you have to be prepared to respond to criticisms and questions rather than just make out that anyone who can't see it as a miracle must have a mental deficiency.

Iain

On 8/14/07, Vernon Jenkins <vernon.jenkins@virgin.net> wrote:
Forum,

There is the suggestion in some quarters that while the 'standing miracle' of Genesis 1:1 may well be accepted as a communication from our Creator - specifically intended to target this generation - its content is indeterminate. My own view is that the information delivered is clear enough - as I explain in "The Message of the Miracle" - http://www.whatabeginning.com/anatomy.htm

Vernon
www.whatabeginning.com
www.otherbiblecode.com

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After the game, the King and the pawn go back in the same box.

- Italian Proverb
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After the game, the King and the pawn go back in the same box.

- Italian Proverb
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Received on Thu Aug 16 15:30:11 2007