Rangers-Canucks in review

1) Let’s get right to this. I know it’s a popular theory, and I’m sure you can find dozens of news stories today saying so, but it’s a fantasy that John Tortorella hated Chris Kreider, or held him down. Kreider himself says it’s not real. Said yesterday that he “wouldn’t have trusted himself” last season, especially playing on a bad ankle, and playing poorly. Nobody wanted Kreider out of college and into the pros sooner than Tortorella did. Nobody wanted a big kid with size and speed more. But Kreider was not ready last year … and, lest you forget, he was not ready at the beginning of this year. Alain Vigneault even said it yesterday: “Well, it’s not the same player that I saw in preseason,” Vigneault said. “I sent him to the minors. There wasn’t really much going on.”

2) That said, this Kreider is a different player and he’s here to stay, and he’s a factor in a lot of games. Needs to be a factor in more of them, because he still does struggle away from the puck sometimes. But, man, the kid’s got everything a coach could want in a player once he figures it all out. He’s still figuring. But there’s a lot going on now. (I meant, THE Kreider).

3) Calm Talbot. Let the goalie controversy begin. It’s not really one, not yet. But Vigneault said yesterday that Talbot could get consecutive starts, with Monday’s game. Vigneault’s made the decision, but wouldn’t announce it because he hadn’t told Henrik Lundqvist or Talbot yet. So, in that way, maybe he’s fueling a little controversy. Maybe it would be good for Lundqvist to be pushed, though normally he pushes himself pretty hard. Good for Talbot. He deserves to play more. I’m not sure yet that he’s going to be a No. 1 goalie in the NHL. But I don’t think he’s a flash in the pan. Too positionally sound and, well, Calm, to not be at least a good goalie.

4) Anyway, his first time playing at the Garden and he got a nice ovation of “Tal-bot, Tal-bot” for the first time after the 4-1 goal and again later. That goal broke his streak of three consecutive Saturdays without allowing a goal. See the post-game notes posted last night for some of the other accomplishments he has posted in seven starts of two or fewer goals allowed, six of those wins.

5) It was pretty vintage Tortorella when he went nuts on Alexander Edler after the horrible giveaway and first Kreider goal. Edler didn’t play the last seven-plus minutes of the period.

6) Also good for Michael Del Zotto, who was back in the lineup, back on his natural left side — perhaps in a showcase attempt? I don’t know that he played any better or worse, but he scored a big power play goal and that had to feel like a hat trick to him. He also escaped a potential injury on the somehow unpenalized head shot by Tom Tostitos. Brendan Shanahan was in the building. Wonder if anything will come of that. Also wonder if there’s anything to this: Rangers assistant GM Jeff Gorton was up in the press box area where the scouts usually sit. I don’t believe he usually sits up there.

7) That Mats Zuccarello-Dominic Moore-Carl Hagelin line looks like they made the other three lines, then had three guys left over and decided/had no choice but to put them together. But they did pretty well. Of course, all four lines did pretty well on this day.

8) Dan Girardi had some early tough shifts … he got hurt doing a snow angel, then broke his stick defending a 2-on-2 break. Then made the pass to nobody at the left point. Then got hit up high with a shot.

9) In a game filled with irony, there was Daniel Sedin blocking Girardi’s shot on the Rick Nash goal.

10) The Rangers power play got another pair, right in front of Tortorella and Mike Sullivan. Sully: “Just like we drew it up. Oh, wait.”

11) The Rangers needed a win like this. I’m not sure that they played great, but much better than most of the 3-2 road trip, I thought. The puck goes in, sometimes — as I’ve said many times — and the game looks a lot different. But it did appear that a lot of those who, Vigneault said, brought their “B-games” Friday, were a lot closer to “A” Saturday.

12) That said, Kreider pointed out that Vigneault — who was angry after the game in Boston, dropping an F bomb and slamming a door after his brief presser — helped fire up his team, not because it was playing his old team. “You see that passion,” Kreider said, “That’s the klind of passion you need to bring to the rink every day. I think a lot of guys felt that way after the game and you want that kind of fire after a loss like that.”

13) No idea how Brian Boyle got involved in a second fight in two days, but give him credit for showing up. Kevin Bieksa was hoping to get Kreider after Kreider roughed him up and took a penalty, at least that’s what it looked like Bieksa was saying to Kreider as he skated by the box and looked at the time remaining on the clock.

14) “I am going to coach this game, hopefully kick their asses and get outta here.” — Tortorella. Well, two out of three ain’t bad.

***********************************My Three Rangers Stars:
1. Chris Kreider.
2. Cam Talbot.
3. Rick Nash.***********************************Your poll vote for Three Rangers Stars:
1. Chris Kreider.
2. tie, Rick Nash.
2. tie, Cam Talbot.*********************************** Eddie, Eddie, Eddie’s Three Rangers Stars:1. The Kreider: The kid still needs to learn the process, improve in all areas of the rink, and is far from ready for the NHL, but that was an impressive performance today and a big “up yours” to the Nucks coach.2. McD: Excellent game today. I counted at least 4 nice poke checks on odd man rushes. He had his legs today and played a good hard physical game. Great rebound in less than 24 hours.3. Tam Calbot: I know there are still plenty of doubters but this kid is really playing well. Square to the shooter and standing tall, Tam constantly challenged the Nucks offense. Interesting sidebar, there were a few nice Tam clears that the Rangers weren’t ready for…This young man is no Henrik with the puck

Anti-stars:1. The car seat: I think those straps are going to need tightening after the ride home. Torts was not happy.
2. Testito: What a tool. Hopefully, The Bickel will be called up when our boys travel west if only to pound him into submission…
3. MSG crowd: I was happy the former coach became their former coach, but he brought more excitement and passion to the Garden that we’ve seen in a long long time. That run to the ECF was terrific and Torts deserves a lot of the credit…***********************************

What a great effort from The Kreider. He was dangerous the entire game. If he can duplicate the effort going forward he will be exactly what this team needs and we’ll see the puck in the net more often.

Fifth! Hiccup. Nice writeup, Carp. Thanks! I missed this one, enjoyed the vivid and honest analysis. I have noticed from the start of the season that the Rangers seemed to have a man or two out of the plausible line combos…interesting observation on the Moore line.

Great review, Carp! They needed this win, so did Vancouver. Except their defense was far from stellar. Edler’s giveaway, both Nash and Kreider at the net against 1 defender on 2nd goal, Nash standing all alone (they forgot about him Joe said) on his goal. Torts gas some work to do it seems.

How about we give a little credit to Derek Dorsett who, again, was effective on PP last night and went after Tostitos with his still taped up, bad left wrist. Is it me, or did Tostitos and Kassian played every other shift at the end when the game was out of reach?

MZA is their best passer by a good margin.

Lastly, it could be a function of Rangers’ team speed improving this year, but does Brad Richards look like he lost a few steps, even comparing to last season? Or is he injured?

You know, I have heard claims that Francoise Allaire is the best goaltending coach in the NHL. And he’s done a great job in Colorado (aside from not installing any character in VarLAmov or the organization surrounding the VarLAmov arrest).

Well, his brother, Benoit, needs to get a huge pat on the back for his hard work with Cam Talbot. It has really paid off. As Carp said, he’s so positionally sound and that helps him make a lot of the blind saves through screens. Cam Talbot doesn’t guess.

I’m with, ORR. The mocking chants for Tort are so stupid. Not only did the guy take the team to the ECF (with what everyone thinks is less talent) and build a youth movement that has made the NY Rangers more exciting, he didn’t abandon this organization. He was fired. So it’s not on him at all.

Overall a nice win, a big win that gives this team a boost. A win against a western conf team and their old coach. Hope it translates into some momentum.

The need for someone besides dorsett to drop the mitts was made even more obvious yesterday though. Also if Pouliot is going to play under ten minutes, I would be fine giving those minutes to asham or Bickel.

Is it at all possible that Sather/AV understand they have Bickel and Asham in the minors and will become part of the team once they decide what they are going to do with all of these forwards who contribute little each game like Brassard and Pouliot?

It is painfully obvious this team lacks some muscle up front and could use some other players in the lineup who can at least fight.

I haven’t watched many games this year, yet had the chance to watch yesterday’s and Friday’s game, and have a question. What’s going on with Ryan Callahan? Is he hurt? Because he doesn’t look involved nor get the minutes.

Are Kreider and Nash the best players up front for this team?

I think for the right player their aren’t too many untouchable players on this team outside of McD, Nash, Cally and Kreider.

Is Haley hurt? Why is he not considered a replacement option on the 4th line? Bickel should be the 13th F and we need to make a trade for a power forward who can fight. Also, Call up Mcllrath and get J. Moore back in the lineup. Keep Falk in there. Bench Stralman.

you knew AV wanted this game by making one move that allowed this all to happen…moving Richards to wing.

Tam Calbot does such a great job handling puck…steering shots effortlessly to corners and out of harms way and passing it up the boards with authority. Makes it much easier to play D with a goalie who doesnt force unnecessay draws or cough up puck behing his own net.

Pullout is working his way down the depth chart. Now on 4th line and if he cant drop em , time to finish the experiment and bring in Bickels or Mash or Assham or The Comet or, or, or

Dom Moore played strong on puck, but MZA should be up with Brass and Cally. Hags seems a little lost so far.

I know, I know. I don’t like Stralman. To one dimensional to me. But whatever. It’s not a huge problem. Just a spot where I think we could slot in some toughness. But if we trade a D-Man and clear space….

See dubb – on opening faceoff in game the camera showed players at center ice with Sam mentioning Richards at wing and then showed Torts who was smiling.

Nash had to get away from him. Listen , would love the guy to play hard, hustle and be a solid forse for team, but he is a DH for the PP and on the point no less…

Hopefully he doesnt go crying to Uncle Glennie. If up to me, would move Hags or MZA to play on the top 6. everyone wants to have 3 scoring lines on a team which doesnt have that top line talent. you end up diluting all 3 lines when you spread your 5 best offensive players across 9 spots

Dead wood, but he has to play. I noticed the move to left wing, too, and it is the game winner without the game. No more relying on this relic. Too slow, gets lucky points (for his next contract), doesn’t play any defense, doesn’t belong on this team. Thank you Uncle Glennie!

Worse, when he plays center, he neutralizes whomever he plays with, INCLUDING Nash, who had a liberated, break out game!!!

Yes, it seemed to me Torts had on Sestito’s, Kassian (boy, what a sorry waste of a draft pick he was), and Bieksa 80% of the last 5 minutes. Was he trying to protect the twins from our overly physical team????? I now MZA is a pretty imposing character.

Seriously, it seemed he was a tad frustrated and they were there for a reason. Not cool.

If you believe that Uncle Glen and Dolan have something to do with hiring and firing AND the overall product on the ice during a game (tee shirt toss and all) THEN you have to be thinking………

There was ABSOLUTELY NO nostalgic video, picture, or camera image of Tortorella put up on that new, transformed, MSG, state of the art, GARDENVISION during the game. Sorry, that was contrived. Not coincidence.

They put up the most insignificant people and moments all the time. Insignificant actors, actresses, comedians, and the like that attend once, have their agent tell MSG and voila, they’r up on the screen!

Now, you have one of the 6 coaches under Sather’s tenure that did so much with the youth movement, instilled pride in the logo, etc., and not even a mention, a peep, he was here. Hmmmmmm…………

I remember when Renny came back. Neilson, Espo, Ron Low…….(there have been so many) ….ALL UP ON THE SCREEN FOR A ROUND OF APPLAUSE OR NOT. This guy? No? Hmmmmm……

IF the Garden Exec’s had dared put Torts up on Gardenvision, it would have been interesting to see what the response would have been. Dunno.

But not putting it up, and The Kreider scoring the first, second, and then the hattie, gave room for the boo birds that haven’t read Carp’s point 1 above to get active. So, they did.

Really poorly done by MSG. Torts didn’t deserve the lack of recognition. One of our better coaches, like him or not, and one of the biggest accomplishments one of our coaches has ever had, given the lack of ability of that unskilled team 2 years ago.

Regardless of what the chants are at MSG, the moronic announcer somehow doesn’t know how to wait till they are over (in the rare case one starts). SO, he seems to wait till the crowd starts it’s own chant, like “Kreider! Kreider” and break it up with his booming, way too loud, stop any chant ever announcement of goal production (or anything else) that could have waited, if he had the common sense or direction.

END RESULT: In the rare likelihood a ‘natural chant’ (i.e. one not started by ‘noise needed signs’ or an organist’s beat) IS started BY THE FANS (!!!) in the world’s quietest and most confused arena, it is thoroughly TROUNCED, stomped, and killed by the MSG announcer anyway. So the “kreider, Kreider” chant and most of the “Tort-o-rel-la” chants were destroyed by MSG.

Most interesting part of The Kreider situation is The Kreider himself being aware of his need to improve his D Zone play. Some great quotes by him after the game discussing areas he needs to get better at. Great stuff.

While he must have been jazzed playing against Torts, he must have been ecstatic playing with Nash. Almost seems like Step was along for the ride.

While MZA is a great passer, that pass by Nash on the first goalie was a beaut – he caught The Kreider in stride and the kid ripped his wrister

Kreider will improve in all areas. He is just a kid. He sure seems to have a head on his shoulders and OMG tons of talent.

Yesterday, against a non-Bruins team, he had so much open space, created more. Could have had 8-10 shots on goal and was such a force on offense. With Nash on his RW, as they learn each others moves he will get more space opened. Could be our first real first line since ’93-5.

So, in essence, this team can beat most any of the non-elite teams in the league. The elite teams are teams that are characterized by skill, speed, AND size. We have speed, a bit of skill and…… bah-dump-ah……no size.

So, this team, as it is constituted can be a .500 or a little higher. But, will struggle against the league’s best, which happen to be the bigger teams. You know, teams like the ‘Lurch and Igor’ Bruins.

In regards to point #1, while I don’t doubt it, I believe Torts’ stubborn system wouldn’t have allowed for Kreider to flourish and make learning mistakes.

I agree, though, that Torts deserved an ovation. Until we win a cup, that 2011-12 will always go down as my favorite Rangers season I’ve ever experienced (I was a little too young to fully appreciate 93-94).

Carp,
you go to the AV sent Kreider down too well very often. here is the difference in the two. when AV brought Kreider back, he played him. he put him in a position to succeed. put him in the top 6, plays on the power play, and most important, does not bench him for every perceived mistake he makes.

Give Boyle credit for showing up? He doesn’t get any credit from me. He’s pretty embarrassing out there when he attempts to use his size. We all love his PK ability and he’s great in the room, but he needs to go up to Thunder Bay for a couple weeks and visit with Kelly Youngblood and/or Racki from the Bombers – teach this Sasquatch how to fight (totally serious about this).

Win was okay… The worst thing is, as it was obvious before, the team’s lack toughness is being exploited by other/all teams we play..even smaller opponnets…teams keep taking runs at our dmen and small forwards, and there is no solution to this…only a matter of time before someone gets BRich for a season ending concussion and yrs of salary cap agita…

Also, can’t help but think Kriders hockey and general IQ are far below his talent level..

Carp @11:43…. I was more just offering my opinion on what it would take to put us in with the elite, Cup contending teams. Not necessarily being realistic.

However, probably, there will be players who will become available during the season the team can add to help it get bigger down the middle without sacrificing skill level. And I also think we will be able to add at least 1 defensman who would be an upgrade over Girardi, Staal or Stralman.

Tell you another thing. Bieksa clearly should have gotten an instigator, which would have meant a suspension for instigating a fight in the final minutes. Refs need to be more aware on stuff like that.

Carp, like to hear your thoughts on this. I found it very interesting but not surprising the Bieska was looking for Kreider late.

Do you agree that Kreider, with the way he now plays (smash mouth power and physical game) will have to drop his gloves, probably sooner rather than later? So far, he’s been able to decline or the scrum was policed the refs or teamates before the gloves came off. They’ll come a point when declining will no longer be an option and he will need to go.

I don’t disagree that he’s a horrible fighter, Billy. He is and he knows it. And I’m sure he does take some kidding. But teammates never keep score of W’s and L’s. They appreciate, very much, guys who show up. Prust lost tons of fights. Dorsett loses tons of fights (though I forgot to laud him for landing a few on Tostitos). Teammates love that they showed up.

Dorsett is a warrior, he’s not afraid and when he does scrum, he gives it his all. Not saying that Boyle is not a good teammate (my first comment points out that he’s great in “the room”). All I’m saying is that if you’re gonna stick up for your teammates via a fight, don’t go into it trying “not to get hit”

Dom Moore roster spot sold have been used for some toughness..given the make-upmof the roster, even a mcgrattan (not a fan of “goons”, but look at the roster and what is happening)…once again, pyatt is a disgrace…give Dorsett some of his size.

Every time a player drops his gloves, he is risking his livelihood, usually for the good of the team.

iMO, That’s what separates Hockey from the other team sports. Risking your own well being, your ability to earn a living in the interest of team unity and the one for all and all for one spirit de corp.

He should send Torts a Thank You card for keeping him eligible this year, playing him less than 25 games last year. (Notice Miller played 26 and is not eligible)

If he has a couple more games like yesterday, you have to put him into consideration 16 pts in 20 games vs Hertl’s 21 pts in 26 games. If he can out gun Hertl in less games you would have to give the kid the Calder right?

If you’re afraid of getting punched in the face, don’t fight! Especially with a history of concussions. I’m sure his teammates would tell him that as they don’t want to see the guy hurt. Admirable, but foolish.

And on teams that lack the selfless, team first DNA, success is often witnessed but seldom experienced.

The Stanley Cup Playoffs, the greatest endurance test in all of team sports. ….Last team standing has earned that prize with selfless play, and a team first, one for all and all for one group of players. iMO, Nothing compares.

You must be one of the vocal minority that holds a grudge vs. Boyler for not being an offensive force. True, he doesn’t put points on the board, but he uses his BIG body for a lot more. He is our best percentage face off center (amazingly better than even, Rocket Richards), he is one of our most steady PK players, and he, and his line mates usually play the scrappy role of sending the puck in deep and keeping it along the boards, tiring out the ‘d’ and diminishing the oppositions offensive chances.

Nope, none of that shows up on the score sheets. So, for people that don’t know enough to or don’t value these very important traits, his point total renders him ‘ineffective’.

I’m in no way surprised there wasn’t a Tortorella tribute. Frankly, I found him to be very unprofessional throughout his entire stint with the Rangers, particularly with the media. He also seemed to be abrasive to just about every one who dealt with him. I wouldn’t be at all shocked to hear that he was less than helpful with the people who develop MSG programming and they returned the favor ‘we’re not going to put a tribute together for a guy who made our job more difficult’. Whether it was classy or not, is probably side with not classy but I get it.

I’ll stand in defense of Boyler fighting. At least someone has the guts to stick up for a teammate and involve themselves. That trait has been missing in 98% of the players to wear a NY jersey since the Kocur/Langdon era.

Everyone forgets their precious Prust took his lumps on occasion but was credited for having the guts to go whether it was his bad hand, against a guy twice his size etc.
Boyle gets criticized often around here. If someone happens to just not be a fan and doesn’t want to acknowledge a positive then just don’t say anything at all.

Actually, I tend to agree with Bulldog (sigh) about Del Z. I’ve criticized this organization for years for giving up on Zubov, Nordstrom and Zidlicky. I’m not packing Del Zotto’s bags. I might if he were the only issue but he’s far from it.

Agree James. Players remember guys that stand up for them. Wins and Losses not so much. I would rather see Boyle stand up for a player and lose, then say THE KREIDER get a head shot from a goonish play/player.

I’m thinking Del Zotto will be more of a business decision, with his UFA status. He will want a big raise, and I’m not sure he isn’t replaceable with the younger talent in Hartford.

Something tells me he will be moved for the highest value.

We need a player, for sure in return. But this team needs more grit on the blueline. Unless Del Zotto starts to score again, and becomes to valuable to trade, but he needs a lot more shot like yesterday if he’s going to stay.

apparently I stumbled on a key word somewhere and wound up in moderstation so here’s a repost:

I spoke my peace regarding Torts yesterday too. Take any team and look up the top 3 coaches in their franchise’s history and tell me if that coach has ever fallen under the wrath that some of you guys have for him. It’s a personal thing with most of you.

and ps- I remember everyone being beside themselves during the Gretzky years when no one would stand up for him. If Boyle was on one of those teams and jumping in to get his butt kicked when the precious 99 was involved he’d have a lot more respect from people.

If Sather trades Del Z and can bring back something of value…ie- not a late round draft pick, another team’s underachiever, or a 5-6 Dman so be it. But as I said, you’re trading another young Dman with potential before an off season where you may have a fair amount of turn over on defense. It’s not an easy decision

Manny, once Mike Richards retires there won’t be a player in the league that Dubinsky can win a fight with. Would have kept him at 2 million a year. Another guy who would at least make an effort to stand up for guys.

He adds intangibles that few add. Worth the risk. We’ve been down that path. We disagree.

I’ll tell you this, what happened to Boyle the last 2 games doesn’t happen if Prust is here. Moreover, Boyle plays an overall better game with ‘protection’. Prust ‘protected’ him and free’d him up to do other things.

Papa, I agree on Mcllrath. Young kid hasn’t even had a call up where he can play 5 or 6 games and obviously there’s a degree of discipline you have to be concerned with regardless of toughness. Wouldn’t put my eggs into that basket just yet.

The Canadiens are a different team with Prust. Whether he’s on the ice or not. He’s a leader and he makes people around him tougher. If you watch a Habs game without him the announcers talk about how they miss him and how guys know they need to step up with him out. When he’s on the ice the announcers gush over him and talk about what a leader he is. And he’s smaller than Parros. Guys is an absolute warrior. Prust is irreplaceable.

Think getting a 4th liner that can check and fight is not the same as bringing up Wrath of Mac. yes, having him and Falk on the back line would solve a lot of problems because, unlike a 4th liner, they can play whenever and are usually against the other teams forwards who are smacking our key guys around (McD)

Would exchange Pyatt and Pullout for that player in a heartbeat. Don’t think that is too much to ask for cigar breath

Back at you, Manny. E3. Every team needs guys like them. All we got…..all we got…..all we got this year….is a baby Dorsett, tipping the scales at 192 (with wallet and cell phone in pocket) and standing on tippy toes to hit 6’0″. Man, he tries hard, but other teams must be laughing at the girlish way this team is put together for now (keep saying for now because I can’t believe even Slather will allow this to go on for much longer).

As well, hey, we got Zuccs, and a whole bunch of pygmies, that wouldnt dare drop gloves anyway. It ain’t enough.

The Rangers were ranked 8th in the league back to back years prior to the summer in which they signed Gomez and Drury. (first PP Unit of Nylander with Jagr) When Torts took over for Renney they were 22nd in the league. Then 13th in 09-10, 18th in 10-11 and buried in the basement the last two seasons. You can’t say that’s purley a coaching issue. the guys on the ice make a difference as well.

Hate them, but they are the BEST in the east as well as the BEAST of the EAST. No team put together better and I believe they will be in the ECF again, barring injuries. What a great job with balance on that team. Sheesh.

Ottowa of last couple of years was really good and well put together. I have a hard time assessing Alfie’s defection as yet. Like their size and toughness.

papa – me very much likey Prusty, would have signed him because it was a 2 for 1 deal. You get Prust and the more effective Boyle. Slats just does not like paying his own. Other’s peoples mistakes, he will overpay for, but our own…no way.
Sometimes smoke gets in your eyes…

Stubborn old man. Could have had a Chris Neil with Prust. But, no. Too stubborn for that. Instead he rips the heart out.

Now, aside from the BLARING lack of toughness he has multiple guys that should be signed or traded WELL in advance of expiry. Instead? Nothing doing with Callahan, Girardi, HANK, Strahlman, even Boyle.

Moronic to believe he can’t SAVE $$$$ by wrapping a few of them up now. Mark my words. Had he approached Prust like Murray did Neil, he would have SAVED the same kind of $$$$. Instead, he infuriated the guy and lost him, making it easy to say “he asked for too much”. The same BS will likely go on here with this years class, too.

_He adds intangibles that few add. Worth the risk. We’ve been down that path. We disagree.

I’ll tell you this, what happened to Boyle the last 2 games doesn’t happen if Prust is here. Moreover, Boyle plays an overall better game with ‘protection’. Prust ‘protected’ him and free’d him up to do other things._

Kenneth, you were here 2/3 years ago like I was. What you see is different than what I do, for sure. We have been down that path. But, yes, Prust gave Boyle a sense of being protected out there, a freedom that he has not had since his departure that made Boyle a better player.

Boyle is not a fighter. He can use his size if it is in addition to someone he is on the ice with that does fight. Prust was the perfect accompaniment.

amazing that people are still making excuses for John Tortorella purely for the sake of being argumentative. the only “fantasies” are that John Tortorella didn’t play favorites and didn’t bury players.

and the people who are still making excuses for Brian Boyle, who is obviously a nice guy and cares about his team but is barely an NHL player at this point need a wake-up call. I read something on here the other day meant as a Boyle disclaimer concerning his “fight” with Chara, giving him credit for going up against Chara even though he knows he can’t fight. that excuse works if you’re Derek Stepan; if you’re a 4th line forward who puts up 15 points per year, and you happen to be 6’7″ 250 lbs, it’s plain asinine.

Now Boyle has to play the role of
Protector, engaging with Chara while keeping one glove on. It’s sad. It was better when it was like, “you’re lucky you got me fighting you, look at the size of Boyle. Don’t make him mad!” Now he’s exposed.

The fact that Torts almost achieved the ECF with a thoroughly deficient team in 2012, is all I need to know. Those of you that hate him for Avery, whatever, have to look at what he DID accomplish and turn off the personal hatred just for 30 seconds to see it equitably.

to say Brian Boyle was only exposed as a soft player a few days ago is dishonest. the guy has been consistently rag-dolled all over the ice for the post few years – one fight with Chara doesn’t all of a sudden prove that Boyle is a 5’7″ player trapped in a 6’7″ body; most of us have known this for a long time. it’s no accident that Boyle turtled against Chara when he’s turtled away from most of the league for as long as he’s been wearing a Rangers jersey.

have felt like Talbot was the sharper of the 2 Rangers goalies a few weeks back and that hasn’t changed, though I think Lundqvist has been better of late. and though I like the way Talbot looks more than Lundqvist, it’s pretty hard to justify making a change when Lundqvist hasn’t really played himself out of the starting lineup.

Love the idea, Matty. I would love to see Hank respond well to a challenge before the Rangers give him all the years and all the money. Let’s make him earn it. Got nothing to lose with the way Talbot has played.

I’ve got to believe the coaches are pretty keyed into the available talent in Hartford. McIlrath was horrible against watered down talent in the preseason, he’s not ready for prime time. If you guys think Stralman and Del Zotto are dead weight then I can’t even imagine the commentary if McIlrath were playing. Take off the blue glasses, he isn’t the answer.

if you want to assess the success of teams by nearly getting to a conference final, you can do that, but that’s not a valid benchmark for success in any sport. the team absolutely overachieved and has been poorly assembled by an utterly inept general manager. but some people use that as a “get out of jail free” card for Tortorella and that’s just nonsense. Tortorella did some good and did a lot of bad. I think he did a fine job of extracting extended efforts out of middling players (i.e. Prust, Boyle, etc.) and did a weak job in improving young players. Personally, I place greater weight on developing young talent and could take or leave interchageable-part bottom 6 fowards.

So, let’s get this straight. Dave Tippetts is an awful coach because he hasn’t won the cup. So is Barry Trotz. And, Dave Babcock is also now a horrible coach that will never again be worthy of winning the Stanley Cup (but really only because he lost Lidstrom, not because he has lost his ability).

I don’t get that.

A coach is as good as his team. Torts had a FLAWED TEAM and still moved them far that one year. But to expect a championship with crapola is quite contrary to logical thinking.

I agree that fighting for the sake of fighting isn’t necessary and is somewhat irrelevant but fights are a necessary part of any team. The sport has calmed down greatly since 1900 and even since the 1970’s. Even since Messier played and was a little loose with his elbows.

Fighting is still a relevant part of the NHL and those who seek to destroy that facet of the NHL should just go watch a European league with “skill”

_if you want to assess the success of teams by nearly getting to a conference final, you can do that, but that’s not a valid benchmark for success in any sport. the team absolutely overachieved and has been poorly assembled by an utterly inept general manager. but some people use that as a “get out of jail free” card for Tortorella and that’s just nonsense. Tortorella did some good and did a lot of bad. I think he did a fine job of extracting extended efforts out of middling players (i.e. Prust, Boyle, etc.) and did a weak job in improving young players. Personally, I place greater weight on developing young talent and could take or leave interchageable-part bottom 6 fowards._

I agree with most of these thoughts. I disagree, Torts did some good and some bad. Aside from McDonagh, there isn’t anyone that made incredible strides as a player under Torts.

winning championships is ultimately what defines a team in every sport. it’s why the mothereffing Giants can have a terrible season and still act like they’re a big deal. the Rangers have a legacy defined by 54 years between championships and 1 in the last 20 years (despite having ludicrously high payrolls for a chunk of that time). if you want to sing John Tortorella’s praises for almost getting to a conference final and act like every bit of success is attributable to him and every bit of failure is attributable to Sather, you can do that, but I’m just not that impressed by a track record of “nearly getting to a conference final.”

It’s absolute nonsense to say that Torts wasn’t pro youth and wasn’t a coach interested in developing a youth movement under which numerous young players, and rookies, played very well. Without looking like the Edmonton Oilers for 8+ seasons either!

Very easy to have selective glasses on what he did for this franchise.

In fact, one thing he was, was controversial. His handling of each player was unique to them and it almost always was with the intent of getting the most out of each player. To those that love Kreider (as I do), it was some tough love. But, even AV agreed that Kreider wasn’t ready as recently as game 10 of this year. So, really, what did Torts do that was wrong?

With Hags, Step, Staal (albeit a bit constrained at first), MacD, and others, he helped them become who they are.

I would argue that he was more harsh with MDZ and Kreider but in the end, and part of that for Kreider may just be beginning, they could well be better for what he taught them.

Lloyd, take off your hatred for the players coaches you speak and just evaluate their talent. Who ever said Boyle is a scorer?? Perhaps you did??

Please do not put words in my mouth.

Boyle is, has, always will be a role player that uses his big body, not for fighting, but to play a defensive style. He is best along the boards, is ok for PK and face offs, and doesn’t cost the team a lot in cap space.

this argument again. I liked Torts, he is a good coach. he had a terrible year last year, and that led to him getting fired. Torts took them as far as he was going to. while I was not for his firing, he did run his course. to say he helped Krieder is a bit of a stretch.

Manny,
I think there were at least 3 reasons he was fired. Richards, his handling of Kreider, and his system.
for those that defend his handling of Kreider by saying AV sent him down too. I say this, AV also plays him 14 to 16 minutes a game, plays him on the top 6, plays him on the power play, and does not bench him for every little mistake he makes.

it’s interesting how the Tortorella fan boys fall back on the “goalscorers are overrated” argument when in the same breath they say Tortorella didn’t have any talent to work with and by default had to play a defensive system.

Who was more responsible for putting that team together, Torts, Hank, or Sather?

All Torts.

Not going to defend him when it came to the trades. I’m sure the Gaborik trade was ultimately his call, and maybe forced Sather’s hand. With the Nash trade, who knows?. One or both. Doesn’t matter at this point.

The Nash trade was a waste, in my opinion. I like Nash, but if this team doesn’t win a Cup within the next few years, then it’s a complete waste.

I’m not comfortable with that, Lloyd. He’s better than that. I think Boyle is an IDEAL 4th line Center. There are few better (James brought up Campbell as one) Top notch face off guy who is terrific on the PK. Also good at protecting leads. What’s not to love?

Did Torts really bench Kreider for every mistake? I swear that seems like an exaggeration.

I know Torts was always quick to bench someone for dumbass mistakes, but I don’t recall him benching Kreider every single chance he got.

I never really had a problem with how he handled Kreider until toward the end. Kreider was basically what Pullout is to NYR right now. At times he showed something, but overall, didn’t do *anything* to deserve to stay in the lineup.

Maybe I’m wrong, but wasn’t he playing with Nash in the playoffs? Not like he was on the 4th line every game.

Bottom 6? Yes, a given. Fairly soft? Not entirely. By virtue of his frame, he can grind it out a bit. But Is he a fighter? We know better. Can he play ‘bigger’ with someone like Prust or even a runt-fighter like Dorsett? Uh huh.

Will he ever produce the same point total again? I would not expect that. It was a cosmic event. A confluence of various circumstances that worked in his favor.

Now, ask me, is his value in points produced?? Not at all. Any point production from him is gravy. Pure gravy.

His value is prevention of scoring. Going up against the opposition’s top line. Wall play, PK, face offs, being a big body, and being good in the locker room. I don’t see scoring there at all.

Lloyd: I have joked before that I hate goals. It’s almost true. Aside from being excited when my team scores, I don’t look at it much. Most good hockey teams win 2-1 and 3-2 in the playoffs. I want a team that can win a 1-0 6th game in 3OT. That’s my interest

There are not enough elite goal scoters to go around. There are maybe 10 max in the NHL and Pitt has 2 of them.

Thus, teams like the Rangers overpay for 30 goal, second tier goal scoters because of desperation.

_Kenneth, really? LOL is my only response. Torts MADE guys like Dubinsky and Prust and Boyle and Stepan and Hagelin and Staal and McDonagh and HANK and Girardi and Callahan and yes, even Kreider. The Kreider._

This is beyond laughable.

Dubinsky, Prust, Boyle are average at best.

Stepan, Hagelin, Staal are good players with some skill. Not world beaters.

Girardi, Callahan, Hank were successful already under Renney.

McDonagh is the only player to make strides of leaps and bounds under Torts.

that Tortorella took time away from Chris Kreider, who admittedly struggled but has huge upside, while cementing Taylor Pyatt into the lineup who did absolutely nothing and has zero upside is one argument you could certainly make that Tortorella didn’t exactly get the most out of Chris Kreider.

Another unreal argument, Lloyd. The Kreider that we see now we have never seen before. He was even bad in the AHL. This is a new beast and he hasn’t been entirely consistent either. Just enough good games in a row to warrant staying.

Kreisler and Pyatt are not comparable because they play different roles. This is something you and a few others never get. Goal scoring guys with poor defensive IQ cannot play on the 4th line. Only Pyatt can play that role.

_I want a team that can win a 1-0 6th game in 3OT. That’s my interest_

This is, again, laughable.

How have you manufactured the idea that good hockey teams win 2-1 and 3-2?

Good hockey teams have the ability to win in many different ways. They have the ability to outscore the opponent to win games, they have the ability to shut down the opponent defensively to win games, they have a goalie that can steal games. Every team strives for quality in all aspects of the game and depth of quality.

Not caring about goals in hockey is so dumb, I am crying, not laughing.

Taylor Pyatt is incapable of fulfilling any role at the moment. He proved incapable of fulfilling any role last year. Kreider played like a monster in the playoffs 2 years ago. Are you getting a different TV feed than the rest of us?

defense wins in the playoffs? tell the to Toews, Kane, Sharp, and Hossa.
Torts had Kreider as healthy scratch for most of the playoffs. it was only out of desperation that he used him in games 4 and 5 of the Boston series.

again, the Tortorella fan boys (who may well have switched allegiance to the Vancouver Canucks and are just wasting everyone’s time here) fail to realize that great teams are mixtures of great players and role players. teams that are all of either don’t win anything. they are defined by almost getting to a conference final.

Pyatt was actually pretty good in the playoffs. Better than a lot of NYR forwards! LOL! That was a huge problem.

I’ve warmed up to AV, for sure. But I still think Torts should have gotten one more year. If it didn’t work out, then that’s that.

They got past a tough Caps team. Everyone seemed to forget statistically that team was probably the best going into the playoffs. They were winning, and OvechCANT was scoring almost every game, and they shut them down. Down 0-2, faced elimination twice, and blew them out in game 7.

I know they lost to the B’s in 5, but they could have won a lot of those games, which is why the series was so frustrating to watch.

Pouliot is a guy many participants here would be drooling over if this team was still coached by John Tortorella, guaranteed. We’d be hearing about how important his high hit total is, how his lack of scoring is meaningless, and what a valuable two-way forward he has been to Tortorella’s “defense-first” system.

I think my point on Fedotenko and guys like that is that, if I was building a team, as I have said, I would analyze my roster, figure out the identity, and build a team that matches that identity. Don’t add big names for the sake of it because if they don’t fit the identity than they are just in the way.

With that 2011-2012 team and after that I was, and still am, in favor of building from the bottom up

Season after season the Rangers get booted from the post season because of a rugged and effective 4th line. That stuff matters!

I also disagree that torts alone got them to the ECF 2 years ago. That was a good team Period. World class goalie, tough gritty forwards, good D men (shame Sauer got hurt) great PK, and forwards that could score – not enough as it turned out – but still……

I mean that 4th lines matter. Role players, of that type, matter. A lot. And the Rangers should take a clue from the last three seasons and start building an actual 4th line and stop just throwing any AHL player out there with an undersized fighter and Boyle.

E3, let’s go back 2 years. At the beginning of that year, were you thinking ECF, no doubt? Think back, my brutha. Think back. I was thinking stay out of last place.

No doubt you will remember a thoroughly inept offensive team. What’s a coach to do? Well, since these guys got no talent up front. Can’t finish. Let’s go the other way. Defensive style. Shot blocking.

For that one year, combined with some solid play from many highly motivated players, that had a fire lit under their butts, playing well above their heads, and a Hank that had an excellent, Vezina year, they did well.

Was that all Torts?? Not on your life. Did he help? I do believe it did.

Now, I guess to Lloyd and Kenneth, he should have taken that team right to the SC finals and won. Doesn’t matter what the composition of the team was. All that matters is that you’re a coach. You failed if no SC at the end of the year.

There’s no grey. None at all. It’s black and white. If you don’t win the cup, you suck.

What changed? You tell me. Where you watching? Do you remember how they took over 1st place and never looked back? Do teams ONLY rely on great goaltending to win the cup? Is a team made up of more than one player? Can a coach’s message ‘get to’ the players in that one special year, enabling things to ‘click’?

As I look back to that ‘special year’ I definitely believe it was a confluence of forces that made that team click.

1. Hank had an above average year and you could go into a game thinking he could make the ‘big save’ at any moment.

2. The shot blocking was working, and few teams had an answer for it back then.

3. Total team defense

4. Some scoring

5. Total team toughness –yep, guys like Prust, Dubie, you know, the guys that are so awful because they don’t have the stats and do nothing for their teams, protecting the team, giving them a sense that they can do what they need to do and not worry.

Kenneth, you say you have watched this team since the ’60’s. Have you really?

What changed? Oh, nothing much.

For one thing, some smart teams figured out ways to delay their point shot to more or less negate the shot blocking.

More importantly, a slight change in personnel the next year. You know, this team didn’t win the cup, so we’ll either not sign or trade a whole slew of players. But to you, Lloyd/Kenneth, players of no import. You know, they are only role players.

_For one thing, some smart teams figured out ways to delay their point shot to more or less negate the shot blocking._

This has nothing to do with the teams during Torts tenure, other than the fact that teams adjusted to Torts’ shot blocking defense and Torts never re-adjusted. The changes in personnel during Torts tenure, aside from the Nash acquisition and the McDonagh development, were minimal. The core of players was in place from the beginning of Torts reign until the end. Role players come and go.

You’ll pardon me, but I now know this is a losing argument as your hockey IQ is lower than the Islanders won/loss record over the last 15 years.

In one year, with very significant gutting of the true heart and soul of the team, which overnight made the team physically easier to play against, left important players unprotected, the GM changed everything from the feel on the ice to the feel in the locker room.

You may have been watching from the ’60’s, but you are seeing nothing.

Matty,
you are right, they did sort of gut that team, but in my opinion, that was as far as that team was going. I think this team is more talented than that team, but as you have said, they are easier to play against physically. I think this team, with a physical addition or two, is closer to the cup than that team. just my opinion.

Yea, so, ask Joel Quenneville, who went to round 3 his first year with the Hawks, won the SC in the second year, then lost in round 1 2 years in a row what happened.

Does this mean he lost his edge? Take a look at the needed player personnel moves and his team lacked depth.

Then, in his 5th year, I believe, they were smartly restocked and they won the cup again. Did his ability as a coach change that dramatically from year to year? Or did some of it have to do with the Byfuglien role layers he lost?

Also, you called Byfuglien a role player. He’s a 1st pair D with offensive skill better than any Rangers D. The Hawks roster had to be completely re-tooled after their 1st Stanley Cup due to the salary cap.

Matty, that’s what you said. Torts lit a fire under their butts in 2011-12, meaning he didn’t light a fire in any other season. I focused on that because it was ridiculous of you to state Torts lit a fire under their butts in 2011-12. That’s your argument. You’re right. It doesn’t hold water.

In case you didn’t understand the reference to the always better and deeper Western Conference, I will spell it out for you. It’s more difficult for any specific team to advance in the West playoffs than it is in the East, they are deeper 1-8 seed.

A coach is only as good as the team provided by the GM. There are times where a coach can develop strategy that can work better than other systems might for a team. There are times where the ‘mix’ of players in the room can be massaged by a coach and made to work better. There are times when a coach can get a team to be extremely motivated and out work their opposition. There are times where personnel will have banner years and help a team to play better than it looks on paper.

Some years, certain teams will excel. There is no handbook. That’s what happened that one year since 1994.

Torts was the coach. Hank was the goalie, The role players played their roles. The offensive players were average, but scored some.

However, to believe that any component of the team has nothing to do with it is pure disregard for logic.

the idea of having fighters seems to be overrated these days… but really, watching our biggest player get his ass handed to him two games in a row is a bit disconcerting. rangers have been receiving a bunch of cheap shots. a rugged fighting forward (who’s taller than 5-10) instead of pyatt wouldn’t really kill us. prust and now dorsett shouldn’t have to take on every heavyweight. we’re like the giant smurfs.

Fchamps – what is needed, while they certainly don’t grow on trees, are players that can play but drop the gloves as necessary. Give me Lucic and Thornton on the bruins for Pyatt and Richards and I’ll give you a team that will make a run in the east….

Torts was a good coach for the Rangers. He did some positive things with the roster provided to him. That said, his teams were inconsistent through his Rangers tenure, while Sather added quality such as McDonagh and Nash. All parts of a team are important, as you said. Role players, though, are least valuable.

All players have a role and they’re all important. Scorers score, checkers check, fore-checkers fore-check, grinders grind, goalies save, fighters fight (and play when not fighting) etc etc. The best teams can do it all consistently.

It’s one thing to not like Tortorella as a person. He overall, is a jerk, from what most people see and read about his personality and how he treats people.

But, it’s totally another to discredit him as a hockey coach or make false accusations about how he felt about certain players. He has proven results in building team identities, winning games and turning boys into men.

To suggest that he had agendas against specific players or that he wanted to destroy a player’s career, is beyond ridiculous. The man cared more about the New York Rangers and the players than many fans do. He brought a lot pride to the organization. I think a lot of that pride left with him.

Yes it was a great run to the ECF…as we struggled to win games consistently (win one lose one throughout the entire run) and then our future hall of fame ex-coach got outcoached and our super-duper team got beat by FOURTH LINE! So yeah…it was fun!

But, people who keep on coming back to that magic ECF run tend to forget all the missed playoffs and all the make playoffs by winning the last game of the season or pray to god another team wins to give you chance to get in…i know, i know… its not how you get there as long as you get there but…once we got there…there wasn’t much damage done.

Bieksa jumped Boyle. It’s needs to start being a suspension when guys do this. What was Boyle to do at that point. Wait a sec, isn’t it already a rule? I could have sworn you couldn’t fight in the last 2-3 min of the game or there would be a fine/suspension.

Boyle’s biggest problem when he drops the gloves is his poor balance and inability to skate while throwing his hands. Put him in boxing shoes in a ring and I’m sure he’d be better….It’s not easy to fight on skates….

Knicks are hooping and scooping, hoping and dropping, resounding and founding, shooting and scooting, one-on-one-ing, no defensing, their way to another loss. Call it almost 9 in a row for the other well run MSG team.

Please post ideas for how to use the ‘transformed’ MSG in April. All help welcome…..

You few Boneheads who want to fire Sather are kidding, aren’t you? Because since the lockout, I’ve seen this team rebuild into a very solid organization filled with young improving players who are locked into very good cap space with good salaries. I would hate to see another GM come in and replace Slats by trading away all the long term homegrown young talent that the Rangers have been developing – for veteran players and a quick fix to put all their eggs in a one year try to win the cup basket… Like Neil Smith felt he had to do when Iron Mike Keenan started bullying him in the tabloids. Anyway if you are actually serious about firing Sather, you have no idea how much worse things could be without Uncle Glenney as our GM.

I think what happened was New Orleans gave the name back to Charlotte, so next year they can be the Charlotte Hornets again. The Charlotte Hornets being a team again is literally the coolest thing to happen to the NBA in 20 years

Pelicans is a brand new name that somehow sounds retro because its a throwback back to an era when teams could be named after non-ferocious things like birds. Nowadays teams are given bland names like “Thunder” or “Wild.” Those are way more terrible than Pelicans in my opinion

Jonathan – Even though they stink I’m not complaining about our 3rd and 4th lines. I’m talking about a roster FULL of 3rd & 4th line players, with few exceptions. If you think that is “building a good core of players” I don’t. Wouldn’t you love to see the naked pictures Sather has of Dolan?

I sure do Matty Boy! Lot’s of teams would love to build their teams around Lundqvist, Nash, Callahan, McDonaugh, Gerardi & Staal. With Stepan, Kreider, Hagelin, Moore, and maybe a few other young players like Brassard, Kristo, McIlrath, etc eventually developing into “core’ Players.

Mr D
I find it a bit amusing myself. If dubi made about 1.5 mil less (not that it mattered overall because he was involved in a trade you make 10 out of 10 times) he’d be worth keeping around. Same with prust, dollars a bit high.

Personally, when I bring up examples and use specific player names, I generally use the names as a specific example of a playing style…ie I would love to see a mcilrath d man or two on our roster but would be perfectly happy if the d men were named bieksa and obrien.

Unfortunately Matty Boy, we’re going to have to wait until the end of this season to get a better indication of who are core players are and who they will be in the future. As well as what the salaries will be of the many “locked in” restricted free agents at the end of the season.

The Rangers are in a rather unique situation compared to the other top teams because our rather deep young talent pool is still developing and improving. Thus, our core players are still to be determined… Not to mention that Sather could always bring in another core type player like he did with Nash. Slats has this team in a very good cap situation with it’s players. Much will be determined regarding this teams future and it’s core players this off season.

By the way, players like McIlrath could wear what ever underwear they want!

okay I am so glad for the win, but I am going to say it, after being raised with sarcasm from both of my parents, and I think jpg will agree, some of torts comments were funny and I didn’t always understand why people got so upset…but I was once told by a friend that people don’t always understand our family’s humor.