Technically when ToC was out, Dodge/Parry was like woohoo because we were at Parry Capping Expertise without trying for it.

I like Haste, not so much Crit, on tanking gear. I think the optimal solution is probably just to get rid of dodge/parry as things and homogenize a bit more, oddly. Maybe a new stat that combines them in a more interesting way.

I think consolidating them into one stat is good (say Leather gets Dodge and Plate gets Parry - the actual stat being whatever, they could even make it "Defense"). I think the MAIN thing is that it needs to be in some way part of what we do.

Dodging as a Bear feels good. Because you're pushing buttons to Dodge, so getting a payoff is nice. Popping Berserk or Incarnation and just dodging all the things, awesome. It's semi-OK for a Warrior*, although it really isn't all that exciting on single target, and frankly a little dumb on true aoe with just how MUCH Revenge happens. Those kinds of interactions are good, and those are what they should be trying for.

*I'd actually speculate that it's because of the way Revenge works that they've felt OK with Warriors not scaling with Haste.

Last edited by Darielle on Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.

I highly doubt they were "planning" on Item Upgrades and Thunderforging causing them to shove Normal Mode next tier all the way up to 522 and crossing the 540 mark already either. Inflation is going to be way harder than it was even in ToC.

Actually, one thing I totally missed out when I was thinking about 100% crit Fury Warriors was something closer to Home. It's entirely plausible that Bears could be Armor Capped without trying (and definitely with trying) at some point in this expansion (most likely T16, almost definitely T17 if we end up having one).

Something like that. With Mastery increasing armour by a %, Mastery stacking could probably easily push into the 50-60% increased armour by the time we hit T16 or are deep into T16 (by Mastery skill standards, that's between 30-36 Mastery).

I realised a parralel between Dodge/Parry and how Grand Crusader was so 'meh' back in early Cata.What's funny is that right now, GC, an important HoPo generating proc, is linked to CS/HotR, which are already high-priority attacks because of their HoPo generation. Sounds a bit like overkill, no?

I like theck's idea of linking our Avoidance with GC, maybe even remove the interaction with CS/HotR. GC will remain a very random proc, but its link will "reward", or more realisticly "stop punish" Avoidance items.

Getting back to haste, the second half of the coin, I'm still of a mind of simply kicking SoB in the nuts and get back to it in 6.0 by making all tanks value crit/haste and just doing away with dodge/parry ratings.

When that day comes, seek all the light and wonder of this world, and fight.

Sorry to bring it out again, but I found it funny seeing our latest discussion on the matter

edit: fixed link

theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.

I'm not as concerned about gear inflation this expac around. Firstly, the extra gear levels they're throwing in are smaller jumps in between or slightly above the existing ones, not full-tier jumps like they added in ToC - the most significant thing, the addition of LFR, is something they planned from the start. Secondly, they have experience of it from WotLK, and they've said they actually test stat scaling at gear levels from the likely all the way up to the ridiculous (ilevels in the thousands just to see what happens).

I'm not sure what I think in regards to avoidance - it was never fun - well thats not true, it was fun back in TBC when I feraltanked all the way till we got to BT (where I turned mostly feral-dps - I have a SS of me almost breaking 1k dps in TK).

I like Sags thought about GC unlinked from CS/HotR and linked to avoidance (and have thus tweeted that suggestion specifically to GC).

On bears, am I misremembering or was armorcapping actually done by bears in BC? I seem to remember something about trying to reach the armor cap when I looked at tanking gear going for Gruul - and the badge of tenacity.

For Protection, we do have plans to try and lower the value of haste relative to dodge and parry. We don't want to make haste terrible for paladins, but we agree that it's odd for it to be better than more traditional tank stats. It might require a nerf to Shield of the Righteous to do this, but our goal is not to nerf survivability overall. We just wanted to provide you some context if you see odd changes to tanking abilities.

Time to start collecting dodge/parry gear...

Last edited by Newsom on Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

its effectiveness is proportional to the number of targets you're tanking and also affected by the lvl of your target, as a boss is less likely to be dodged/parried

if no changes are done to haste and straight go with GC coming from avoidance, it will do nothing to change our love Haste...

if changes are done to haste, we will just likely switch to straight mastery... whatever gc procs we get from avoidance will be a bonus, but not something we will likely go out of our way to seek... and dodge/parry pieces would still be insta-shards

Klaudandus wrote:its effectiveness is proportional to the number of targets you're tanking and also affected by the lvl of your target, as a boss is less likely to be dodged/parried

if no changes are done to haste and straight go with GC coming from avoidance, it will do nothing to change our love Haste...

if changes are done to haste, we will just likely switch to straight mastery... whatever gc procs we get from avoidance will be a bonus, but not something we will likely go out of our way to seek... and dodge/parry pieces would still be insta-shards

that's the way I see it.

So instead of taking hit/expertise/mastery/haste gear, and reforging the mastery into haste and accuracy, we'd be taking the same gear, but just reforging the haste into mastery and accuracy instead?

Klaudandus wrote:its effectiveness is proportional to the number of targets you're tanking and also affected by the lvl of your target, as a boss is less likely to be dodged/parried

if no changes are done to haste and straight go with GC coming from avoidance, it will do nothing to change our love Haste...

if changes are done to haste, we will just likely switch to straight mastery... whatever gc procs we get from avoidance will be a bonus, but not something we will likely go out of our way to seek... and dodge/parry pieces would still be insta-shards

that's the way I see it.

Mostly good points! I'll keep the first for last, cause this one is a bit more complicated.

But Haste has to change. That, or we need a new paradigm where haste becomes a "tank stat". In the extreme scenario of SoB being removed, that means mastery pulls forward, behind Hit/Expertise, but still before Avoidance. If we consider GC's comments, I'm going on a limb and saying that's "enough" for him right now.

Now, if they really want us to accept avoidance (and remember, they never said they wanted avoidance to be awesome, just "lower the value of haste relative to dodge and parry"), avoidance being linked to GC (and thus HoPo generation) could "bait" us. We'd probably stack Mastery anyway, but Mastery/avoidance pieces would be more tolerable, especially at high ilvls, where capping exp/hit becomes less of a burden.

NOW, I can understand why the random aspect of avoidance-activated GC would be annoying, but it's already random to a point. In fact, such a change to avoidance would pretty much make AS a ranged Revenge.

Fetzie wrote:So instead of taking hit/expertise/mastery/haste gear, and reforging the mastery into haste and accuracy, we'd be taking the same gear, but just reforging the haste into mastery and accuracy instead?

More like, we focus on exp/hit/mastery, and when exp/hit is capped, whatever is available.

When that day comes, seek all the light and wonder of this world, and fight.

A ranged Revenge that hits three targets and silences/interrupts the primary target

So more like "revenge, with gag order attached, with a 40 yd range that hits three targets". when AoE tanking it would be proccing all the damn time (could solve a bit of our snap aggro problem too now I think about it).