@italo I'm not being arrogant by saying I have yet to see any real arguments against the change. If you have one, please let me know.

As for the no skill points ruining build. All I can say is you are not looking at the system/game as a whole and what effect it is actually having. Builds will still exist. People will still focus on certain skills despite being able to swap them. Investment in runes is really taking over skill points in the aspect that you are looking it at. If you can give me a more thorough reason on how it destroys character building I would love to discuss it.

Runes are tradable. If you desire to change your build all you have to do is sell your rune set and buy a new one. If the game is failry balanced (all runes/skill combinations are more or less in the same power level) theres no reason to think runes of the same lvl will have a meanful different cost. So you can easilly swap your runes around, like you do with skills.

And i did not said the game will not have character builds. I said they eliminated the character building aspect of the game, wich is really different. Character builds are nothing but a well planned strategy. Character building is the act to play an role in an game by creating an character.
Ex: "WD's should pick 1 summon skill, 1 AoE, 1 nuke, 1 cc skills, 1 dot and spiritwalk". This is an build.
Ex: "My WD will only use fire skills! I want him to be some sort of fire shaman". Thats character building.

The character building aspect of the game is eliminated because people don't plan and imagine their character before creating then. Another exemple:

When you play elder scrolls IV what's the first thing you do? Plan what kind of character you will make. "I want to be a rogue with some alchemy skills, something similar to D&D's harpist scout". Then you start the game and start to make choices based on what you want your character to be. You will problably ignore stuff that doesn't go with your character personality, like destruction spells, and the game gives you an reward to play that way (in oblivion you should avoid training to much different stuff).
When you play games that shares a D3's skill system (like guildwars) you will have the urge to just swap moves to see everything you have at your disposal and use the strongest strategy you find, instead of choose skills based on the character theme. Players are rewarded to just test each skill and use the strongest one. D3's skill system induces an rationality based on strategy and efficiency, not role playing.

The biggest prove of what i'm saying is the reason why they felt the skill tree was a bad design. The skill tree totally fill it's role if you think the game is about character building and progression. Firebolt must be learned before fireball, thats the way mages learn spells (weaker ones before the fancy ones). It doesn't matter if firebolt becomes useless later on. Now if the game is about beign efficient and choose wisely all the times, the skill tree/synergy system blows.

Tbh honest, 'im 100% happy with the change. This skill systen is all I ever wanted since 2008. But i can understand why people more interested in other aspects of the game are unhappy.

I said they eliminated the character building aspect of the game, wich is really different. Character builds are nothing but a well planned strategy. Character building is the act to play an role in an game by creating an character.
Ex: "WD's should pick 1 summon skill, 1 AoE, 1 nuke, 1 cc skills, 1 dot and spiritwalk". This is an build.
Ex: "My WD will only use fire skills! I want him to be some sort of fire shaman". Thats character building.

You can still do that.

I want to make a barbarian that dual wields axes. I want him to be a raging berserker. I'm only going to take abilities that let me use 2 weapons or have the word "frenzy" in them.

When you play games that shares a D3's skill system (like guildwars) you will have the urge to just swap moves to see everything you have at your disposal and use the strongest strategy you find, instead of choose skills based on the character theme. Players are rewarded to just test each skill and use the strongest one. D3's skill system induces an rationality based on strategy and efficiency, not role playing.

The problem I see with your line of reasoning is that you assume people will automatically select the strongest skill simply because it is the strongest. If this were true, there would have been no "oddball" builds in D2.

By your line of reasoning, once a strongest class or build is discovered, all other builds are discarded in favor of that superior one. I'm pretty sure I remember games in D2 with classes other than hammerdin.

The biggest prove of what i'm saying is the reason why they felt the skill tree was a bad design. The skill tree totally fill it's role if you think the game is about character building and progression. Firebolt must be learned before fireball, thats the way mages learn spells (weaker ones before the fancy ones). It doesn't matter if firebolt becomes useless later on. Now if the game is about beign efficient and choose wisely all the times, the skill tree/synergy system blows.

You still learn skills in a certain order. You can't get the higher level ones before the lower level ones. For my above barbarian:

Start off with bash and ground stomp, cause they're skills all barbarians acquire. Then add or replace them with the following:

Alright, so your main point against the skill system (that other people have because you like it) is that it destroys character building.

I will counter argue with two points.

The first is that there is still character building. The only difference is that you do not have to plan out your whole build before you even start your character. Having to do so before hand is very unfriendly for new comers. They don't know what they will and will not need. Instead, what D3 has done is let you build your character while playing. This is much more user friendly and forgiving if you mess up. You won't have to restart your whole character because of one bad choice. In my opinion, getting to build your character while playing is much more fun than sitting in front of a wiki for hours planning it out on paper.

I do understand that some people like to pre-plan. To this, I say that this also helps with character building. I know I want a summon wd. I'm going to look forward to those levels that unlock the spells I planned to use for this build. Again I am building the character while I play even with pre-planning.

As for the runes, I think you might be underestimating the strategy and build forming these will be. With each runestone having a different effect on each skill, you cannot just transfer a rank 7 alabaster rune from one skill to another because it's effect may not work with the build and playstyle you have planned. Blizzard is also looking into locking runestones into a particular skill meaning you have to plan and build your character with specific spells to rune even though you have every spell available.

Seriously I'd buy the Tyrael hoodie if not for that D3 logo on it. When you wear that kind of stuff, it's cool when you find other people who just already know what your clothing is referencing. Granted, most people would see the D3 logo and still not know what it is, but I just like my clothing to be as logo free as possible.

Seriously I'd buy the Tyrael hoodie if not for that D3 logo on it. When you wear that kind of stuff, it's cool when you find other people who just already know what your clothing is referencing. Granted, most people would see the D3 logo and still not know what it is, but I just like my clothing to be as logo free as possible.

I think I am going to sport the socks during basketball, perhaps to baffle defenders.

I'd like to address some things concerning PvP you guys didn't elaborate on in your podcast.

#1

The items that are gonna be sold for big cash are mostly only gonna be perfect versions of items whos imperfect versions will probably only be marginally worse. Just compare the ridiculous price difference between a perfect annihilus and an imperfect annihilus. My guess is that these few points will be very negligable especially when you consider that the other person will have potentially spend a few hundred dollar to gain these few points.

#2

There was a small competitive scene in diablo and it regulated the use of items quite a bit. For example, knockback items weren't allowed on an amazon.
I can see a league regulating PvP by standardizing the allowed items and making sure that everyone has a fair chance of acquiring these. Similar to what blizzard does in World of Warcraft by offering PvP sets. That would ensure a fair battlefield.

I agree scyber dragon with you completely, that almost all complaints against blizz changes are QQ'ing, but I have one logical argument against skill point system removal, and I will present it without anger or distaste, and hopefully if you guys do get to talk to people in charge at blizz, you can at least pass this idea on, since I will never be able to.

A guy on the forum came up with the idea of keeping the system how it is, but then at a certain level, say like 35 or 40, you start giving skill points to further improve upon whichever skills/elements/passives you like. So I still get to choose 6 active skills and 3 passives (or w/e it was), but i get skill points past that level.

reason being, blizz says they want people to be versatile and not have to respec while playing through the game. IF they do it this way, by level 35 you already have all the skills, and have had them long enough to experiment extensively, and decide what you want. It wouldnt be until later you would even have 'skill points'.

Past that they could choose to still include a respec option for gold for those skill points.

I am a little disappointed in their decision, because I feel most of their reasoning to remove it completely is just so people don't keep respec'ing as they level up, and this fixes it. ANother big arugment they gave was that people just max 6 anyways, and this would solve that too by giving you a different facet of cusomization. removing it completely just makes it feel less RPG like...

I agree scyber dragon with you completely, that almost all complaints against blizz changes are QQ'ing, but I have one logical argument against skill point system removal, and I will present it without anger or distaste, and hopefully if you guys do get to talk to people in charge at blizz, you can at least pass this idea on, since I will never be able to.

A guy on the forum came up with the idea of keeping the system how it is, with active skills and passive skills able to be switched out when you go to town, but then at a certain level, say like 35 or 40, you start giving skill points to further improve upon whichever skills/elements/passives you like. So I still get to choose 6 active skills and 3 passives (or w/e it was), but i get skill points past that level to improve on the ones I really like, or change them in some way.

reason being, blizz says they want people to be versatile and not have to respec while playing through the game. IF they do it this way, by level 35 you already have all the skills, and have had them long enough to experiment extensively, and decide what you want. It wouldnt be until later you would even have 'skill points'. You wouldn

Past that they could choose to still include a respec option for gold for those skill points.

I am a little disappointed in their decision, because I feel most of their reasoning to remove it completely is just so people don't keep respec'ing as they level up, and this fixes it. ANother big arugment they gave was that people just max 6 anyways, and this would solve that too by giving you a different facet of cusomization. removing it completely just makes it feel less RPG like...

I agree scyber dragon with you completely, that almost all complaints against blizz changes are QQ'ing, but I have one logical argument against skill point system removal, and I will present it without anger or distaste, and hopefully if you guys do get to talk to people in charge at blizz, you can at least pass this idea on, since I will never be able to.

A guy on the forum came up with the idea of keeping the system how it is, with active skills and passive skills able to be switched out when you go to town, but then at a certain level, say like 35 or 40, you start giving skill points to further improve upon whichever skills/elements/passives you like. So I still get to choose 6 active skills and 3 passives (or w/e it was), but i get skill points past that level to improve on the ones I really like, or change them in some way.

reason being, blizz says they want people to be versatile and not have to respec while playing through the game. IF they do it this way, by level 35 you already have all the skills, and have had them long enough to experiment extensively, and decide what you want. It wouldnt be until later you would even have 'skill points'. You wouldnt even have to worry about them till later.

As for spending hours planning stuff out, past that point they could choose to still include a respec option for a minimal amount of gold for those skill points. Everyone can be happy, no being punished permanently and having to start over, yet still the feeling of customization, and you have plenty of time to think about what you like.

I am a little disappointed in their decision, because I feel most of their reasoning to remove it completely is just so people don't keep respec'ing as they level up, and this fixes it. ANother big arugment they gave was that people just max 6 anyways, and this would solve that by affecting skills in some other way/shape/form. Blizzard is my favorite game company of all time, but I think they were a little hasty making this decision without really thinking of some alternative to solve the issues they had with a skill system.

Alright, so your main point against the skill system (that other people have because you like it) is that it destroys character building.

I will counter argue with two points.

The first is that there is still character building. The only difference is that you do not have to plan out your whole build before you even start your character. Having to do so before hand is very unfriendly for new comers. They don't know what they will and will not need. Instead, what D3 has done is let you build your character while playing. This is much more user friendly and forgiving if you mess up. You won't have to restart your whole character because of one bad choice. In my opinion, getting to build your character while playing is much more fun than sitting in front of a wiki for hours planning it out on paper.

I do understand that some people like to pre-plan. To this, I say that this also helps with character building. I know I want a summon wd. I'm going to look forward to those levels that unlock the spells I planned to use for this build. Again I am building the character while I play even with pre-planning.

Your logic is totally biased towards a game that does not evolve charactr building. Just to begin with, theres no "right" and "wrong" in a role playing universe. Theres no mistakes. You just play your character the way you want, it doiesn't matter if he is weak or strong (as long as you're able to finish the game).

For exemple, daggerzons are weak characters but i passed a good amount of time playing one. Why ? Because it's fun and i liked the idea of playing an amazon that huntdown stuff using an dagger.

Cleary the Diablo fanbase has changed A LOT since D1 and early D2. People were not concerned about "balance" or being strong or weak. They just wanted to play the game with an character their felt good with. lol Noone passed hours on wiki because it wasn't needed. Who passes hours on wikis before make an baldur's gate character ? Will people pass hours on wiki before they creat their Skyrim toons ? Obviously no.
D3 public changed a lot. They see Diablo as an mmorpg were min/max is more important then role playing. Actually majority of people think role player cannot exist in an game like Diablo (rofl). Character building is something that only exist in the role playing context (i think what you're calling character building is what people from rpgfans usually calls min/max). And everyone knows that roleplaying (thous character building) can only exist with permanent choices.

Alright, so your main point against the skill system (that other people have because you like it) is that it destroys character building.

I will counter argue with two points.

The first is that there is still character building. The only difference is that you do not have to plan out your whole build before you even start your character. Having to do so before hand is very unfriendly for new comers. They don't know what they will and will not need. Instead, what D3 has done is let you build your character while playing. This is much more user friendly and forgiving if you mess up. You won't have to restart your whole character because of one bad choice. In my opinion, getting to build your character while playing is much more fun than sitting in front of a wiki for hours planning it out on paper.

I do understand that some people like to pre-plan. To this, I say that this also helps with character building. I know I want a summon wd. I'm going to look forward to those levels that unlock the spells I planned to use for this build. Again I am building the character while I play even with pre-planning.

Your logic is totally biased towards a game that does not evolve charactr building. Just to begin with, theres no "right" and "wrong" in a role playing universe. Theres no mistakes. You just play your character the way you want, it doiesn't matter if he is weak or strong (as long as you're able to finish the game).

For exemple, daggerzons are weak characters but i passed a good amount of time playing one. Why ? Because it's fun and i liked the idea of playing an amazon that huntdown stuff using an dagger.

Cleary the Diablo fanbase has changed A LOT since D1 and early D2. People were not concerned about "balance" or being strong or weak. They just wanted to play the game with an character their felt good with. lol Noone passed hours on wiki because it wasn't needed. Who passes hours on wikis before make an baldur's gate character ? Will people pass hours on wiki before they creat their Skyrim toons ? Obviously no.
D3 public changed a lot. They see Diablo as an mmorpg were min/max is more important then role playing. Actually majority of people think role player cannot exist in an game like Diablo (rofl). Character building is something that only exist in the role playing context (i think what you're calling character building is what people from rpgfans usually calls min/max). And everyone knows that roleplaying (thous character building) can only exist with permanent choices.

You have a good reason and totally understand your side. Question though, did you like PK'ng in D2?

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I love all loot fest kind of game! I will be playing all of them for the next few years. Loot fest games I'm looking forward to: LotR: War in the North,Torchlight 2,Borderlands 2 and of course Diablo 3.