The difference in speed between tabard reputation and daily reputation is far greater than any the racials bring. Maybe excepting EMFH.

Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.

- Thucydides

There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.

It's pretty lame, but they looooove to trot out the excuse that they want to prevent people from hitting exalted in a few days. Nevermind that it was pretty rare for all bit a minuscule portion of the population that did it, and nevermind that there would be a number of ways of preventing it. It's pretty clear that there is a concerted effort to gate things so that you log in every single day of your life, and this is a tiny attempt to to appear to listen to the gamers that don't want to have daily chores whilst still adhering to the "log in every single day" directive.

Because if you don't log in every day, you won't ever be able to see MSV.

But yes, it's clear that they are gating things, because that's how MMOs work. Well, successful ones anyway. Gate players to a reasonable degree, but always keep some reward close. That's how you keep players in the game.

Since there's no need to do the daily chore anyway, it's a bit weird to hear that it's their intent that players log in every day, feel like they don't make progress, and log off.

It's objectively good design because it keeps people playing in the world. That was Blizzard's goal, and they accomplished it.
If you have an alternative to non-instanced repeatable content that keeps people both playing the game day after day and in the open world, then by all means share it with the class.

It's not objectively better. I find being forced to do dailies and ride on a ground mount to be a huge drain on my ability to enjoy the game. The Molten Front quest design made me quit the game for a year because I burnt out on those crappy dailies. Came back to MOP to find they locked the game behind that shitty design. Massively let down.

And lets just face facts here. Not once, ONCE, while doing dailies in Wrath, Cata, or MOP, has my experience EVER been enhanced by having to go out into the world. Not once has anyone ever whispered my character. Not once have I ever whispered. Even when I /waved people or invited people doing the same quest as me. Same with archeology. The only time I've stumbled upon people and had a good time by surprise was when I went out with the intent to start some world PVP with friends.

Getting people out in the world isn't a better design objectively. People like seeing other people run around in the backround of their screen. Thats great for them, but being one of those people running around doing menial tasks just so someone else can see me in the backround while they are playing sucks and is is absolutely not objectively a better design.

The reason people don't go out in the world is because there ain't shit to do out there. Locking rewards behind crappy dailies isn't a solution it's a finger in the dam. If they want people out in the world then they need to design us a reason to be there that is fun and rewarding.

If the rep bonus from the heroic and scenario is equal or better then you'd gain from doing the dailies, you might have a point.

That is why everyone is jumping on your case. First it was "We want an option to gain rep that is not dailies". Now it's "We want an option to gain rep that is not dailies... and is just as fast as they are!". Dungeons are already highly rewarding on their own, without the rep gain. Blizzard does not want rep gain to be a trivial afterthought accomplished solely through gameplay you would be participating in regardless. Which is exactly the situation we were in through most of Wrath and all of Cata. You were going to run the dungeons either way, for the Valor if nothing else. But put a tabard on and you get rep while you are at it as a free bonus. It became mindless. You didn't care about the faction at all aside from what the vendor sold. They had no personality or relevance to the larger world. They were a vendor and a green bar.

You're getting an alternative option. One needed to be in place, in order to truly invalidate the already relatively weak argument that dailies were required. But given the already substantial rewards available from dungoens, and the often stated rationalization by Blizzard that they want the factions in MoP to have an obvious connection to the ongoing story, I would not expect it to be anywhere remotely as efficient to grind rep in dungeons vs doing dailies (or both).

You asked for options and that is what you are getting. Nobody ever promised equal efficiency.

All this complaining is simply further proof that Blizzard could send each and every player a real-life wish-granting flying unicorn carrying a solid gold plate of chocolate chip cookies wrapped in hundred dollar bills, and someone would whine that Blizzard sucks for not letting them choose oatmeal raisin.

Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking

If your guild demands you slip into an elephants butt and force yourself out in a regurgation then you can't blame Blizzard for supplying the elephant.

But here is where the logic fails. "Rep" gear has nothing to with reputations its gear for raiding, it's gear that is better then what drops in LFR, in every expansion I played I could go get that gear without reaching exalted with a reputation. In cata the epics you got from rep were inferior to epics bought with valor but you could get them quicker to get some gear while you grinded valor

So this is like "I want raid gear! So I have to....quest?"

That or bring back valor vendors for gear but don't lock them behind reps. Then I wouldn't care how fast or how efficient my rep gain was.

OK well anyway you look at it, you want gear but don't want to put in the effort, plain and simple. Would you be happier if they just mailed it to you? And really you shouldn't need rep gear for raiding.

Plus I go back to the fact that the rep grind is fairly fast and easy compared to pre-wrath. They cap valor at 1000/week, so by the time you can spend it, you should be through it. In fact I am puzzled on why you are still complaining about it as if you were serious about gear for raiding, you would be done with it a long time ago, like I and most raiders were

I don't love dailies, I don't love herbing for mats for pots/flasks. I don't love grinding mobs for motes to make the starter epics. But it is what you do in an MMO. Grinding is not new, in fact grinding has gotten a TON easier.

That is why everyone is jumping on your case. First it was "We want an option to gain rep that is not dailies". Now it's "We want an option to gain rep that is not dailies... and is just as fast as they are!". Dungeons are already highly rewarding on their own, without the rep gain. Blizzard does not want rep gain to be a trivial afterthought accomplished solely through gameplay you would be participating in regardless. Which is exactly the situation we were in through most of Wrath and all of Cata. You were going to run the dungeons either way, for the Valor if nothing else. But put a tabard on and you get rep while you are at it as a free bonus. It became mindless. You didn't care about the faction at all aside from what the vendor sold. They had no personality or relevance to the larger world. They were a vendor and a green bar.

You're getting an alternative option. One needed to be in place, in order to truly invalidate the already relatively weak argument that dailies were required. But given the already substantial rewards available from dungoens, and the often stated rationalization by Blizzard that they want the factions in MoP to have an obvious connection to the ongoing story, I would not expect it to be anywhere remotely as efficient to grind rep in dungeons vs doing dailies (or both).

You asked for options and that is what you are getting. Nobody ever promised equal efficiency.

Then that isn't an option. It's a gimped little thing they tacked on. Sorry but it's true. And sorry, but for a lot of players, dailies are a nightmare and they are just a complete time suck. An option is you can take two paths to get the same reward. Not "You can get this crap, or you can walk the paved righteous way of the daily bullshit"

And tell you what. I don't care about the faction. They are a little green bar and a reward to me. I don't read the quest dialog. I skip the cutscenes. I don't have an interest. Forcing me to do dailes hasn't changed that it just made it more annoying.

No one ever promised you everyone in the game would have to play the way you do. An option is something else I can do that is earns me an equal amount of rep per day as doing dailies would. Period

---------- Post added 2013-01-17 at 05:01 PM ----------

Originally Posted by davesurfer

OK well anyway you look at it, you want gear but don't want to put in the effort, plain and simple. Would you be happier if they just mailed it to you? And really you shouldn't need rep gear for raiding.

Plus I go back to the fact that the rep grind is fairly fast and easy compared to pre-wrath. They cap valor at 1000/week, so by the time you can spend it, you should be through it. In fact I am puzzled on why you are still complaining about it as if you were serious about gear for raiding, you would be done with it a long time ago, like I and most raiders were

I don't love dailies, I don't love herbing for mats for pots/flasks. I don't love grinding mobs for motes to make the starter epics. But it is what you do in an MMO. Grinding is not new, in fact grinding has gotten a TON easier.

I quit the game during Cat because it sucked. I wasn't playing during MOP's launch. I recently returned because friends asked me to come back and try the new x-pac with them. And I am exalted with every rep but Celestials. So i've done all the work and it made for a bad game, an unenjoyable experience, and has me wondering if I should unsub again. I also do not have unlimited time every day and I enjoy playing the game with my friends over doing dailies myself and currently, for the first time since I have been playing, can no longer do both together.

OK well anyway you look at it, you want gear but don't want to put in the effort, plain and simple. Would you be happier if they just mailed it to you? And really you shouldn't need rep gear for raiding.

Plus I go back to the fact that the rep grind is fairly fast and easy compared to pre-wrath. They cap valor at 1000/week, so by the time you can spend it, you should be through it. In fact I am puzzled on why you are still complaining about it as if you were serious about gear for raiding, you would be done with it a long time ago, like I and most raiders were

I don't love dailies, I don't love herbing for mats for pots/flasks. I don't love grinding mobs for motes to make the starter epics. But it is what you do in an MMO. Grinding is not new, in fact grinding has gotten a TON easier.

That's not really what they are saying.

Previously, you did a heroic/raid, you got badges/tokens which then got turned into JP/VP. Those were meant to suppliment poor RNG from actual drops from heroics/raids, but to spend them you needed nothing more than to accumulate a certain quantity and visit the respective guy in Shat/Dalaran/Org/SW.

They still serve the same purpose in Mists, and you still get them largely through the same means. However, to spend them, you have to do the same as before, but there is an extra step required: You have to earn the proper amount of rep with whichever faction was arbitrarily assigned to be the holder of the 'leg' slot, or the 'chest' slot, or whatever slot you need to upgrade.

THAT is their point. Not that faction grinding is hard, but was simply unnecessary for 3 expansions, but now suddenly they are if you want to do much of anything with your Valor.

It is just another daily. It is a daily to run a 5 man. No more or less interesting, nice, bonus, fun, ect than the current spam of daily quests.

If they had made it like the old valor reward where your first 7 5mans a week then it would be different. But as is, it is just another daily... It also better reward somewhere around 2-3 times the rep a daily does, or it is just a waste of time until you have done EVERY daily avaiable.

I quit the game during Cat because it sucked. I wasn't playing during MOP's launch. I recently returned because friends asked me to come back and try the new x-pac with them. And I am exalted with every rep but Celestials. So i've done all the work and it made for a bad game, an unenjoyable experience, and has me wondering if I should unsub again. I also do not have unlimited time every day and I enjoy playing the game with my friends over doing dailies myself and currently, for the first time since I have been playing, can no longer do both together.

Two comments here, and not being snarky.
First maybe you should unsub, as grinding is part of all MMOs.
Second, if you are done why do you keep saying things like "I also do not have unlimited time every day and I enjoy playing the game with my friends over doing dailies myself and currently, for the first time since I have been playing, can no longer do both together."? You don't have to do another daily ever, so why is there a conflict? Seriously, why are you doing dailies if you are "...exalted with every rep but Celestials"?

EDIT: I am done and don't do any dailies. I have enough coins for another month with no dailies

To be honest when the game released I hate the dailies too. However, now that we are getting closer to 5.2 I have to say, I was totally wrong.

First, Blizzard is doing a great job ramping up the reputation gain options as the expansion gets farther into the life cycle. First it was just dailies, then we got commendations to increase rep gain on alts. Now we are getting farm based items, rare mob token drops, and a even a limited rep gain for running heroics again.

Second, I actually care somewhat for the factions in this expansion. Let's be honest, how many of you actually paid attention to the Dragonmaw, Wildhammers, Therazane, or Rama'khan? Hyjal and Earthen Ring at least had some focus due to people like Malfurion and Thrall pushing them in certain patches, but otherwise I didn't care.

These dailies though, I can name nearly every Tiller off the top of my head and like them. I love the Shado-Pan and going out adventuring with an ally. Cloud Serpents felt very rewarding once I was done. Etc...

I have not felt this good about the factions I am working with since WOTLK, and a lot of that is because of the daily system actually forcing us to experience their stories.

It is just another daily. It is a daily to run a 5 man. No more or less interesting, nice, bonus, fun, ect than the current spam of daily quests.

If they had made it like the old valor reward where your first 7 5mans a week then it would be different. But as is, it is just another daily... It also better reward somewhere around 2-3 times the rep a daily does, or it is just a waste of time until you have done EVERY daily avaiable.

It will likely be about as much or slightly less than what you could earn for completing a full set of one faction's dailies, somewhere between 750-1.5k rep per day. And it currently seems you can only champion a single faction per day.

Last edited by Gurbz; 2013-01-17 at 10:23 PM.

All this complaining is simply further proof that Blizzard could send each and every player a real-life wish-granting flying unicorn carrying a solid gold plate of chocolate chip cookies wrapped in hundred dollar bills, and someone would whine that Blizzard sucks for not letting them choose oatmeal raisin.

Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking

If your guild demands you slip into an elephants butt and force yourself out in a regurgation then you can't blame Blizzard for supplying the elephant.

Pretty sure they changed that because now every heroic run gives Valor Points. The first one for the day gives 80, and all the runs following that give 40. The reason they did the old change was because the first run (or first seven runs) were the only method to get Valor at all without raiding, not even mentioning the fact dailies now also give a small amount of Valor.

I know. But I enjoyed the flexibility of not having to log in everyday. But meh, it's a minor inconvenience at best. HCs take 15mins tops anyway.