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Oldboy (US - BD)

Thanks to Blu-ray Gabe can now count the messy hairs on Choi Min-sik's head

Feature

Reviewer’s Note: Honestly, I see no need to rewrite or reintegrate my views on this particular film. Oldboy is a masterpiece, and easily one of the best films of the last decade. Instead of indirectly repeating myself, I’m going to just copy and paste parts of my original review here. If you want to know even more about my opinion just see my R1/R3 comparison article or my R1 collector’s edition review.

One day a seemingly innocent, average, and undignified man is kidnapped and imprisoned in a small, furnished bedroom/bathroom. He is given no reason for his imprisonment, instead he is simply left to his own devices with nothing but a journal, a disturbing clown painting, and a television set to keep him company. Through this television he’s informed that his wife has been murdered, his daughter has gone missing, and that he is the prime suspect.

After fifteen years of being knocked unconscious with gas for grooming, eating the same pan-fried pot stickers, logging his thoughts, and beating his fists bloody against the wall, the prisoner is mysteriously set free. He is informed via a third party stranger that he has five days to figure out why he was held hostage, if he doesn't, he will be killed.

Oldboy may very well have been the best, and the most important film of the twenty-first century, had it not been for those pesky New Zealanders and their damned Hobbits. A poignant mix of visceral reactions and subtle introversions, the film speaks volumes for modern cinema's post-modern sensibilities, modern societies apathy, film's progression as an art form and an entertainment source, and perhaps most importantly, South Korea's relevance in the realm of influential art. The film works on so many levels, it can be simply overwhelming to even the most studious viewer.

Unlike Tarantino's Kill Bill films, which took the classic exploitation theme of bloody vengeance and created a funhouse homage to the classic genres of the underground scene, writer/director Park Chan-wook has stripped the theme of its cinematic carnal pleasures. Like the film's thematic predecessor, Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance, which presented two sides of revenge and allowed events to play out in a most tragically objective manner, Oldboy turns the classic clichés of modern cinema sideways. While bloody revenge may be what the audiences initial, visceral gut reaction it craves, the truth and realism behind the action rears its head.

Visually, it's as if Park as taken all the lessons of modern cinematography and editing, including the ever-hated music video and video game methods, and distilled them into a eloquent yet seedy whole. There is a dreadful calm to the entire film, the anticipation of violence always bubbling to the surface, but never spilling over, at least not until the frenetic final revelation. The framing, camera motion, and set and costume design all exude an undeniable visual poetry in the face of some of the ugliest events in mainstream film. The duality of the image is never short of fascinating.

The performances are perfect, but it is Choi Min-sik as lead victim Oh Dae-su, and Yu Ji-tae as the sadistic Lee Woo-jin, that steal the show, as it should be, because they are the Yin and Yang of the plot. Choi's physical transformation in the hands of his torment is a site to be absorbed by every aspiring actor alive. The character has to undergo three distinctive emotional changes, and each step is achingly believable. Yu, who is basically playing an emotionally scarred and slightly more sociopathic version of Lex Luthor, is charmingly slimy, maintaining his collected calm, only breaking twice in his adult state. His performance is in the end, perhaps even more important than that of Choi, as he's given the impossible job of making the audience pity a monster, which is the thing that separates Park's films from other revenge dramas.

Oldboy is the most challenging non-indie film to see major release since the gloriously hilarious, Nietzschean adventures of Tyler Durden in David Fincher's Fight Club. It begs repeat viewings and requires an open mind. My feeble writing skills are no match for the film’s layered grandeur, and I simply hope all cineaste's simply take my word for it, and soak it in as soon as possible.

Video

Tartan has opted to release their most popular and important feature as a test for the crystal clear Blu-ray waters here in the US. My immediate reaction was actually somewhat tepid, as the level of detail in the transfer didn’t immediately blow my eyes away. Part of this can be blamed on the physically dark nature of the film’s first third, because the moment Oh Dae-su is released the transfer came to life. Another reason could be that the previous collector’s edition DVD release was a very good transfer.

It wasn’t until I made a direct comparison between the transfers that I started to really notice the degree of detail found on the Blu-ray disc. The big reveal for me came with the scene where Dae-su successfully carves a hole through the wall of his cell and is able to reach his hand into the falling rain outside. On the Blu-ray disc each and every drop of rain is visible, rather than a more visually simple sheet of water. The Blu-ray disc also depletes the low-level noise and compression blocking seen in the darker backgrounds of all previous DVD releases. Black levels are as deep as my set will allow, but still offer detail, though white edges are still slightly jagged.

Again, I was hoping for something a little closer to the Korean release in colour, but the director’s preferred vision is up for constant debate. The greens still aren’t as rich as I feel they should be, though the last act’s purples look better then ever, and are now almost completely without compression noise. The bleached whites also still look wrong to me, and the general contrast level of daylight scenes is a bit jarring, but again, this is a judgment call on my part because I’m not 100% sure on what the director intended.

I am unfortunately unable to access screen caps from the Blu-ray disc, so I’ve included ones I’ve taken from the previous collector’s edition release. Because of this I am unable to accurately gage the transfer’s framing, though I’m assuming it’s closer to the collector’s edition than the previous Tartan edition.

Audio

I couldn’t get the new DTS-HD Master Audio track to work, which apparently has something to do with the cheaper Blu-ray player I’ve got, so I’m unable to tell everyone about how great it sounds. The Dolby Digital EX track is nearly identical to the previous DVD release’s DTS track. I use the word nearly pretty loosely here, because I assume there must be a difference even though I can’t hear one. The track is plenty aggressive, surround placement is spot on, and dialogue is crystal clear. I was personally in awe of the pre-credit kidnapping scene, where pouring rain realistically fills every speaker in the room. Oldboy isn't an action flick, and doesn't have any scenes of roving digitally created monsters, but the sound design lends itself well to the format.

It also appears that this is the same disc being released in the UK, as the subtitles contain words like "arse".

Extras

Reviewer’s note: The extra features disc included in this Blu-ray set are identical to the second disc of the collector’s edition release, right down to the fact that it is printed on a standard DVD. Again, I’ve just copied and pasted the material from my previous review.

The extras begin with the Blu-ray disc and its three commentary tracks. I get the feeling that Park isn't a fan of doing commentary tracks, which makes the presence of three of them kind of strange. Two of these tracks can be found on Tartan's previous release. The new one is the actor's track, which isn't the best I've heard, but a fair site more entertaining than the other two tracks. The problem with any track involving Park Chan-wook (and in turn almost every Korean track I've ever listened to), is that everything comes down to technical jargon and focus on the look and physical film over talk of the story or character. I'm very curious about the participant's raw emotional attachment to the film, and only the actors really seem to emote this (though in all fairness, I didn't listen to any of the three tracks in their entirety).

Disc two (again, a DVD) contains the more accessible behind the scenes footage, featuring a mix of footage and interviews. This is, from what I can tell, the same stuff featured on the original Tartan UK release of the film (and several other non-R1 releases of the film). The footage is divided into six categories, but a 'play all' function is present as well. As a documentary (if one were to consider it as such) this isn't the best I've seen, but there is a sense of quaint, ‘handmadeness’ to it. The last part includes interview questions from fans, and from the director to the actors. It's endearing. I learned a lot from this stuff, not the least of which is the fact that actor Choi Min-sik actually had a lot to do with the finished film. He contributed some of the best stuff.

I wish the director/composer music commentary would've been included as an alternate track on the film itself. Isolated scores with composer commentary are often the highlight of lesser DVD collections. Fans of film music should get quite a bit out of this featurette, regardless of its placement on the set.

The deleted/extended scenes feature a very apprehensive commentary with Park Chan-wook (who all but specifically mentions his dislike of commentary tracks). These scenes all needed to be cut, as the film verges on overlong, but they aren't entirely disposable, which is uncommon. A scene where Dae-su wakes up in his prison for the first time is a welcome addition, but entirely unnecessary. Included also is the long version of the film's opening police station sequence (which was jump-cut edited in the final film), and a kissing scene filmed in case the sex scene proved to be too graphic for Korean censors. The kiss, we're told, was later used on a TV broadcast of the film.

The interview footage is a little extraneous after the documentary footage, but tells a little more of the behind the scenes genesis of Oldboy. It's the kind of thing that really is included for posterity over entertainment. This is a full set of almost everything available on the making of the film, and I'm glad these interviews are part of that.

The second disc rounds out with a featurette about the cast a crew's journey to the Cannes film festival. It's sort of a mini-movie in itself, and is edited down to a palatable level. At Cannes, Oldboy was robbed of its Palme d'Or because 2004 was an election year, and the French audiences (not to mention most of the world's creative minds) wanted to make a point. Michael Moore's flawed, and frankly sloppy Fahrenheit 9/11 took the prize (I've been a fan of Moore's for a long time, and am not a fan of Bush Jr., but found Fahrenheit 9/11 entirely slap-dash). Oldboy took home the consolation prize of Grand Prix.

Overall

Thanks to the awesome-tastic advent of High-Definition, Oldboy looks better than ever. The Extras are nothing new, and I was unable to give the DTS-HD Master Audio track a run due to my player’s limitation, but the increased video quality is impressive. It’s no call to run out and buy a Blu-ray player, but folks that already have the super-machine on their shelves may want to double dip. Now bring on the rest of the Vengeance Trilogy, Tartan.

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Exactly. Neither format is really perfect, but from what I've seen so far HD DVD offers a more complete experience. If I had to choose at this moment in time I'd back HD DVD all the way for its interactive features, region free status and price. It's just a pity more studios aren't format neutral.

I could be wrong. Just general experience of browsing DVD/film forums and sites like this. I'm not able to check any more but I believe DVDTimes.co.uk reviewers are able to check the audio bitrate. The ones I read when I had access said 640Kbps or 1.5Mbps. DD5.1 on BD is also the same rates, but most are in 640Kbps.

They all said (plus forums) a legacy amp picks it up as DTS. Presumably because of the bitrate is roughly what DTS is also encoded in.

I've no idea how they find this out, that's just what it says.

There is a review of Dreamgirls (found through dvd-basen.dk/uk) USA release which says the HD-DVD is 1.5Mbps but the BD only 640Kbps. They're otherwise the same, including the same MPEG2 transfer. I will be format neutral but on this one (for that reason) will be getting the HD-DVD.

FYI "Pan's Labyrinth" USA from New Line will have DTS-HD MA 7.1 on both BD and HD-DVD. Optimum's UK HD-DVD of "The Host" will also have DTS-HD 5.1 (MA or HR not known) but the BD has PCM.

Where are you getting that info though? I often wonder how certain reviewers are measuring them, because most players don't tell you the audio bitrate and not many people seem to be using BD/HD drives in their PCs.

Many of them are owned by other studios outside of France of The UK. Like "Million Dollar Baby" for example and those that aren't are bound to be beaten down the lines. That and as far as I know that list is literally it. No other HD-DVDs with DTS-HD are on the cards. It was probably an experiment on Studio Canal's part.

As far as I know they're mostly all bare-bones affairs so should get much better discs down the line. I do hear the Terminator 2 HD-DVD is ace, despite being bare-bones, but there is an all out SE coming in Germany of that anyway.

The UK version has DTS-HD HR which I've no idea if it works over Coaxial/Optical like DD Plus or needs HDMI/Analogue Outputs like DTS-HD MA. It is Lossless I do know that.

It does have the same current constraint as DTS-HD MA though (i.e - Core only).

What a load of arse. I'm in a mood with HD DVD now as well. I've not really done much research into the format because I don't own a player yet, but having not seen a single title with DTS on it I assumed they didn't both with it. Thankfully I'm not that interested in any of the titles you mentioned, at least not the current versions of them. When I said mandatory I did mean hardware.

There are reviews of them on the web, including UK sites. They are also listed on Rewind DVD Compare too.

Optimum UK later on ported most of them across but some were released with DTS-HD HR. Optimum have released La Haine with French DTS-HD MA (as far as I know not part of the Studio Canal deal) and The Pianist with English DTS-HD MA though.

The latter is going to be beaten by Universal on their USA HD-DVD soon though, that has DD Plus or Dolby True-HD and crucially retains the documentary not on the UK HD-DVD.

Momentum released Terminator 2, The Graduate and Leaving Las Vegas from the same French Studio Canal HD-DVDs but downgraded them to DTS-HD HR.

These are the only HD-DVDs I know of that have used DTS-HD either HR or MA.

DTS-HD may not be mandatory but it doesn't mean they won't use it. I doubt Dolby True-HD is actually "mandatory" either as not all HD-DVDs have that. I can well believe it's mandatory on hardware though.

I could well believe the only reason Tartan are using it over Dolby True-HD or even PCM is their contract with DTS.

Optimum UK have released La Haine with French DTS-HD MA and The Pianist with English DTS-HD MA. They also released Mulholland Drive and Brotherhood of the Wolf too but I've not been able to find out if they used DTS-HD MA or HR. I would guess MA as they used that for the other Optimum HD-DVDs from Studio Canal.

Momentum UK released Terminator 2, The Graduate and Leaving Las Vegas from the same French Studio Canal HD-DVDs but downgraded them to DTS-HD HR.

p.s - Sorry the post is so long I ran out of time to edit it :-(

Is there any chance the allowed time to edit could be extended? 20 minutes is too short.

Quote: especially because it could and should have been avoided like it has been with HD DVD. Like you I don't want to go round in circles but you are mistaken about HD-DVD not having these problems too. It too cannot play DTS-HD and like BD has also used DTS-HD. The only difference being it's rare on DTS-HD.

Onboard decoding is confirmed by Samsung, it will require a firmware upgrade though:

I don't really want to go round and round in circles with this, because we're essentially agreeing with one another, but the point I'm making with the new hardware still stands. As it is, no player decodes DTS-HD on-board and I don't know of a single one that has been announced (that Samsung player might, but equally it could just be via bitstream).

The reason I want a unified format is because lossless is lossless. It doesn't matter who it's from, Dolby or DTS. One can't be better than the other if they're both identical to the studio master. To be honest I've got a bit of a bee in my bonnet about spending a fair amount of cash on hardware that isn't going to be compatible with a lot of titles in the near feature, especially because it could and should have been avoided like it has been with HD DVD. Granted HD DVD doesn't use DTS-HD, but that's for space reasons as much as anything and TrueHD does the job anyway.

Anyway, early-adopting sucks. I can't wait to get my hands on my HD DVD player to see if I feel less aggrieved I also want Hot Fuzz and Shaun of the Dead in high-def.

Quote: I honestly think you’d be surprised by how few people actually do have HD ready TVs. True. I really meant as people buy new TVs as they do they'll by default but probably by choice have HD Ready TVs. On the other hand they'll still baulk at the price of HD Discs in HMV and the like. They're absurdly expensive.

There is also confusion as you say. Most understand HD-DVD means a High Definition version of DVD but few understand Blu-ray is just as HD as HD-DVD.

Quote: and they were only lossy DTS-HD HR, not MA. Only the Optimum Studio Canal ports like Termintor 2 are DTS-HD HR. The French Studio Canal Terminator 2 is DTS-HD MA, as are all Tartan and Fox BDs. But it's not important.

Quote: I meant that they mostly use MA instead of TrueHD When it comes to Lossless BD mostly uses PCM though. Only Fox and Tartan actively support DTS-HD period. Again not important.

Quote: To get the most from MA you do need to buy new hardware. A new capable player yes but not new Amp. The Amp side is just the same as PCM or Dolby True-HD. All three will work on any Amp with Analogue inputs, which have been around for probably 10 years.

Quote: Whereas HD DVD players can output Dolby TrueHD because of the onboard decoding, most BD players can’t handle DTS-HD MA. True but in reality that is the same for BD supporting Dolby True-HD. Don't they all support it anyway? And no HD-DVD Player support DTS-HD either.

Quote: but if you do want to enjoy MA you will need to upgrade. Not so ;-D, assuming the Player can handle it. Which granted isn't ideal but every Player on the market today (pretty much) either being HD-DVD or Blu-ray is in the same boat as far as DTS-HD.

Quote: All of this could have been avoided with a single, unified lossles standard that was decoded by all players. Personally I wouldn't want that. I'd have much preferred DTS capable hardware to be out at launch and on board of every player. The same happened with DVD Players. The first ones of those couldn't handle DTS. It's now the norm for everything, overtime the same will happen with DTS-HD.

Quote: PCM is going to be used less and less once BD discs start being authored in ‘Advanced’ mode and the interactive features start taking up more space. Sticking a PCM tack on a bare-bones disc is okay because there are few extras eating up space. Good point. You've got me there. PCM takes up lots of space and isn't really needed.

I see plenty of movies. This movie seriosly made me feel ill for a couple of days. I enjoyed OldBoy but it's just disgusting.I am not a fan of horror films so I do not get to see to many of this nature.

Bradavon wrote: The bigger problem is not hardware (when you consider many have HD Ready TVs now) but the fact that the discs cost so flipping much, in comparison.

I honestly think you’d be surprised by how few people actually do have HD ready TVs. I don’t know how affluent the area you live in is, but I still know people who use VHS with small CRTs. Awareness is also another major problem affecting the popularity of the formats; most people simply don’t know enough about them or see a big enough improvement over DVD to bother even if they can afford it.

Quote: No offence Chris but that's wrong. For starters HD-DVD has also used DTS-HD ;-D . Most BDs use PCM not DTS-HD. Unless I'm mistaken only Studio Canal have used DTS-HD on their HD-DVDs (then ported to Optimum's UK HD-DVDs) and as for BD only Fox and Tartan use DTS-HD regularly. The majority use PCM which all amps can decode.

Again, you’re taking my comments too literally. When I said mostly, I didn’t mean they mostly use MA over all other formats, I meant that they mostly use MA instead of TrueHD (I can only think of one BD disc that I own with TrueHD, and that’s Spider-Man 3) . Most HD DVD titles use either Dolby Digital Plus or Dolby TrueHD, but the titles you mention are very much the exceptions that prove the rule (and they were only lossy DTS-HD HR, not MA).

Because it’s part of the spec, all HD DVD players must internally decode TrueHD, whereas most BD players don’t handle DTS-HD MA. If you look at the bigger picture, PCM is going to be used less and less once BD discs start being authored in ‘Advanced’ mode and the interactive features start taking up more space. Sticking a PCM tack on a bare-bones disc is okay because there are few extras eating up space. You mention Fox as a studio; well they’re one of the major players with a vast library of films like Star Wars (and the MGM catalogue). More and more of Sony’s releases are doing away with PCM as well (Surf’s Up, Zorro and the first two Spider-Man films spring to mind).

Quote: Dave B the problem is three fold:

To get 5.1 audio from either HD-DVD or BD any Amp with Optical or Coaxial will do (just like DVD). All HD Audio formats will work just fine. That being from DTS, Dolby or PCM. Each are backwards compatible at a lower bitrate, in the case of Dolby Digital Plus it happens to be the same bitrate anyway.

To get the most from MA you do need to buy new hardware. You could watch using composite at standard def resolutions, but why would you? Dolby Digital Plus is usually 640Kbps as well, whereas the max Dolby Digital bitrate is 448Kbps.

Quote: To hear the full unrestricted Lossless HD Audio found in DTS-HD, Dolby True-HD or PCM however you either need an Amp with HDMI plus a Player than can output it OR an Amp with 5.1 analogue inputs plus a capable Player. The crucial point here is the vast majority of Home Cinema Amps already have those, making them fully compatible. Obviously you still also need a Player that can handle them.

That’s the point I’ve been making. Whereas HD DVD players can output Dolby TrueHD because of the onboard decoding, most BD players can’t handle DTS-HD MA. The rest of what you say is true enough, but it renders the advantages of high-def audio moot. Strictly speaking, your answer is correct in that you don’t need to buy new hardware to listen to the new audio formats, but if you do want to enjoy MA you will need to upgrade. All of this could have been avoided with a single, unified lossles standard that was decoded by all players.

Quote: p.s - What on earth is wrong with the DVD Active comments system? It's been painfully slow over the last few days to comment. It keeps timing out when submitting too.

Fair enough Fake Shemp. I don't think the other two have enough extras available to make a 3 Disc UE. They could release 2 disc versions though but would they feel so special next to Oldboy 3 disc?

I agree with you, I don't think (in retrospect) that the other two do have enough extras available, I was just somewhat hopeful since Sean had implied that the other two would get UE's just as soon as they were through compiling enough extras for them (which, apparently, means never).

I'd like to see them both on BD as well, but the OCD collector in me would still like to see UE's for the others next to the Oldboy UE =)

Alas, for the time being the dream for the latter shall be stored with the dream of a "Book of the Dead" release of "Army of Darkness" as companion to the other two BOTD releases for "Evil Dead" and "Evil Dead II" [sigh]

The bigger problem is not hardware (when you consider many have HD Ready TVs now) but the fact that the discs cost so flipping much, in comparison.

Fair enough Fake Shemp. I don't think the other two have enough extras available to make a 3 Disc UE. They could release 2 disc versions though but would they feel so special next to Oldboy 3 disc?

Personally I'd prefer Tartan release them on BD.

Quote: You don't for HD DVD No offence Chris but that's wrong. For starters HD-DVD has also used DTS-HD ;-D . Most BDs use PCM not DTS-HD. Unless I'm mistaken only Studio Canal have used DTS-HD on their HD-DVDs (then ported to Optimum's UK HD-DVDs) and as for BD only Fox and Tartan use DTS-HD regularly. The majority use PCM which all amps can decode.

Dave B the problem is three fold:

1. To get 5.1 audio from either HD-DVD or BD any Amp with Optical or Coaxial will do (just like DVD). All HD Audio formats will work just fine. That being from DTS, Dolby or PCM. Each are backwards compatible at a lower bitrate, in the case of Dolby Digital Plus it happens to be the same bitrate anyway. 2. To hear the full unrestricted Lossless HD Audio found in DTS-HD, Dolby True-HD or PCM however you either need an Amp with HDMI plus a Player than can output it OR an Amp with 5.1 analogue inputs plus a capable Player. The crucial point here is the vast majority of Home Cinema Amps already have those, making them fully compatible. Obviously you still also need a Player that can handle them. 3. DTS-HD has an extra complication in that capable hardware has been very slow of the mark to be available. All HD-DVD/BD Players can already handle Dolby's offerings.

The exact same problem happened with DVD if you remember. The early days of DVD meant DD5.1 only Amps. DTS knew this though. They made sure a backwards compatible DTS stream is available, which will give you the same quality as standard DVDs DTS.

To try and not make it any more confusing:

A: No you don't need new hardware to get at least DVD quality 5.1 audio. B: The minimum you can roughly expect is the equivalent to DTS quality on DVD. C: If you want to hear the full unrestricted 5.1 audio you need a capable Player and either Amp, remembering that I said most amps are already capable.

p.s - What on earth is wrong with the DVD Active comments system? It's been painfully slow over the last few days to comment. It keeps timing out when submitting too.

Don't really see why there has to be a winner. They're both niche products at the moment and as such are really only bought by early-adopters and video/audiophiles. I read a story the other day that said HD DVD is more popular in Europe. I can't see either catching on as a mass-market product for some time because of the expense involved. There's a big difference between picking up a £30 DVD player at Tesco and plugging it in when you get home to going out and spending two grand on an entirely new set-up. Most people don't have the disposable income for that.

Well, I've had and gave away the Tartan R1 single disc releases, and still own the Vengeance Trilogy boxset released in the UK, but it'd still be nice to see Mr. and Lady Vengeance get the royal treatment given to Oldboy in the Tartan UE or even the Starmax UE.

Marc Boggio wrote: i'd be willing to perform unspeakable sexual acts on man woman or beast for this to come out on dvd...sadly it wont Huh? It's been out on DVD in North America for ages now.

Quote: Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance as well as Lady Vengeance, although I still pine for UE's of both as was done for Oldboy. Both have received 2 disc versions with English subtitled extras for some time now. Didn't your mate at Tartan tell you? He should know, they're the guys who released them. You're looking in the wrong place is all ;-D

Quote: I speak to Gabe away from the site Fair enough. That's maybe what Gabe meant but the review specifically says he couldn't get the DTS-HD MA to work so listened to the DD5.1, which Gabe compares to the DTS from the original DVD.

I for one was quite happy with the BD release of Oldboy, and enjoyed the DTS-HD MA track greatly. I'm sure I probably would've had the same problems as others playing it through my PS3, but my receiver can decode darn near anything. For once I was glad in waiting (a bit too long) in upgrading my home theater for the new wave of HD. Had a much older big-screen before waiting for a 1080P, and a five-year-old surround system in wait for a high-end receiver with not just 1080P output, but the right decoders and enough inputs to be worth it. Don't know who'll win the HD "war", but as of late I've collected a lot more on BD than on HD-DVD.

That said, I'd like to see BD releases for Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance as well as Lady Vengeance, although I still pine for UE's of both as was done for Oldboy. When I spoke to Sean Keeley at Tartan last year, he spoke of plans for them to release just that, UE's of both of them in the style of the Oldboy UE, although it looks as if they've probably been sc**pped in favor of focus on BD.

Sam, you need to see more movies. Chris, thanks for covering the hard core techy stuff. Dave, you are more or less correct. I've only watched 3 blu-ray movies so far, and none have made me want to s**t my pants yet. Besides, the stuff you and I collect will actually look worse at higher resolution. That said, I apparently have a review copy of Evil Dead 2 on the way.

Bradavon wrote: In the long run Bitstream and your Amp doing the decoding is the best option (just how most listen to DTS/DD5.1 now) but until more people have Amps which can decode it on board decoding is the way to go. It will do me nicely. I've no interest in upgrading my Amp.

Internal decoding does away with any conversion, as all the soundtracks are mixed internally as PCM before being converted and output as over bitstream, only to be converted again at the other end. Internal decoding does away with a conversion step, at least if the articles I've read are correct.

Quote: No he didn't. Re-read what he said ;-D

I speak to Gabe away from the site

Quote: Great. What glitch?

There is a slight stutter to the soundtrack at the very beginning of the film (during Ofelia's heavy breathing). I assumed it was part of the track until someone pointed it out, but it's not. The glitch isn't there on the BD version. Didn't ask for the HD DVD version as my chosen player isn't out until Monday.

Quote: It's not that I don't understand the technical reasons, I just can't understand why they chose to use a format that can't be decoded by the majority of people. Like I said Tartan have a contract with DTS ;-D

The LG BH200 HD-DVD/Blu-ray Combo Player will have DTS-HD MA over Bitstream. It's the successor to LG's BH100 that cannot play HD-DVD properly. The Samsung BDU5000 HD-DVD/Blu-ray Combo Player will have DTS-HD MA over Bitstream or Internally. It's been confirmed.

In the long run Bitstream and your Amp doing the decoding is the best option (just how most listen to DTS/DD5.1 now) but until more people have Amps which can decode it on board decoding is the way to go. It will do me nicely. I've no interest in upgrading my Amp.

Quote: Gabe didn't say he couldn't get the Core track to work, he just said he couldn't get the MA to work and so listened to the Dolby track. No he didn't. Re-read what he said ;-D

Quote: On a related note, I got the Optimum BD release of Pan's Labyrinth today, and the audio glitch from the DVD is gone. Great. What glitch?

I picked up the New Line R1 as it has DTS and will be getting the New Line BD (also available on HD-DVD) as it has DD Plus or Dolby True-HD plus a Visual Commentary. The Optimum BD/HD-DVD only has DD Plus and no visual commentary.

Bradavon wrote: The answer is simple. A Player needs to have both a Dolby True-HD and DTS-HD HR or MA decoder built in (or send digitally for the Amp to decode it known as Bitsream). No HD-DVD or Blu-ray Player up until recently has such a decoder.

Um, I think you took that a bit literally. It's not that I don't understand the technical reasons, I just can't understand why they chose to use a format that can't be decoded by the majority of people. Surely TrueHD is the logical choice if most players (HD DVD and BD) have internal decoders? Lossless is lossless, after all. PCM is good, but the constant bitrate takes up too much room on longer films. DTS-HD MA can be passed via bitstream by one player that I know of (the Samsung BD-P1400, which I own), but again you need an amp that can decode it (which I don't own). Ideally every format will eventually be decoded internally by all players and passed as PCM. Just another example of BD technology being overpriced and obsolete before you open the box. There is no logical reason for it, so it has to be down to someone standing to make a lot of money somewhere.

Gabe didn't say he couldn't get the Core track to work, he just said he couldn't get the MA to work and so listened to the Dolby track.

On a related note, I got the Optimum BD release of Pan's Labyrinth today, and the audio glitch from the DVD is gone

Just be happy the USA BD gets a second disc of extras. The UK BD was short changed and didn't get the second disc!

Blu-ray may as well just used PCM and be done with it. It's Lossless just like Dolby True-HD and DTS-HD MA but everything can play it. Why bother decoding unless you have to? PCM in some cases may take up to much space though.

Tartan use DTS as they have a contract with them, simple.

Quote: The DTS-HD MA issue isn't really a shortcoming Gabe. The problem is that for some unknown reason, most BD titles offer a lossless format that can't be decoded internally. The answer is simple. A Player needs to have both a Dolby True-HD and DTS-HD HR or MA decoder built in (or send digitally for the Amp to decode it known as Bitsream). No HD-DVD or Blu-ray Player up until recently has such a decoder.

Dolby True-HD was added from the offset but not DTS-HD. Players are coming before Xmas that do offer DTS-HD decoding though. Some by bitstream whereby a digital signal is sent to the amp for decoding (as in the digitial bits being streamed) or decoded internally then sent already decoded to the Amp.

I am surprised Gabe wasn't able to get the DTS-HD MA to work though as both DTS-HD MA and DTS-HD HR have encoded inside them either a half-rate or full-rate Lossy DTS soundtrack, the same as found on DVDs. Making them backwards compatible.

Going by UK reviews of Oldboy BD I can tell you in this case the DTS is half-rate! Although Tartan did use full-rate on their "Black Book" BD.

Quote: I don't care what technogeeks say...there simply is NO comparison between the leap from DVD to HD DVD as there was between VHS and DVD. Correct but honestly does the leap need to be that big again? HD is still much higher than DVD (even upscaled) which is enough for most.

VHS is analogue based tape format for starters and is 25+ years old. DVD is digital so has some of the benefits HD gives you and is nowhere near as old. The comparison isn't fair!

They could use Dolby TrueHD, because both formats are lossless so there should be no difference in sound quality. At least then we could use PCM over analogue for full bandwidth reproduction (as they put it). It's all political.

Quote: It wasn’t until I made a direct comparison between the transfers that I started to really notice the degree of detail found on the Blu-ray disc

Which seems to be the norm mate. Which is why there is no big rush to get either format.

I don't care what technogeeks say...there simply is NO comparison between the leap from DVD to HD DVD as there was between VHS and DVD. No comparisons were needed quite frankly!

This is made even more obvious when you also add 'the general punter' factor who does not know much and cares less, and also add the fact that you need both a quality, big HD TV as well as a player. Major bucks for a handful of possible titles that you may need to compare to see the difference!

And that's before you even add the fact that an upscaling DVD (or a Playstation 3) can make even standard DVD's look damn good on a big LCD/Plasma screen, HD or not. And we all own a MASSIVE amount of standard DVD's and almost none of us have the desire to upgrade them all AGAIN (I'm still upgrading some things onto DVD from VHS!!)

Even HD nuts will have HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS more standard DVD's than HD ones. They are not going anywhere!

If you have to compare (who the f**k is going to do that before buying a film, aside from reviewers, anyway!?) version to be 'blown away'...the blow isn't that strong in the first place.

Certainly it's a slight breeze when the format war is added to all the above.

The DTS-HD MA issue isn't really a shortcoming Gabe. The problem is that for some unknown reason, most BD titles offer a lossless format that can't be decoded internally, very few players can pass through bitstream and very few amps can decode. TrueHD can be decoded in the players and passed as PCM through analogue, so you still get uncompressed audio, but with Master Audio most people end up listening to the 1.5Mbps DTS Core track. Most reviewers are stuck with this at the moment because of technological limitations.

I have the UK release of this waiting to be reviewed, but I have a few other things on the go at the moment. It's basically just a high-def version of the previous Tratan releases, and lacks the proper colour timing and framing of the director-approved version. Still looks good though.