Stand off likely on Irish Language Act

Whilst there is no shortage of good news on the government front, we haven’t yet hit the legislative white water. The proposed Irish Language Act is likely (along with selection in education) to be hotspot. Apparently there are to be back channel talks between the Arts Minister Edwin Poots and Gerry Adams. Although it was introduced as proposal at St Andrews it was not discussed by any of the participants there. It is, in effect, the result of Sinn Fein’s long term bilateral’s with former British PM Tony Blair.

“Young children in particular are being educated in increasing numbers through the medium of Irish and it is their future and their rights that must be secured through legislation. The Assembly and Minister Poots must make provisions for those Irish-speaking children and all Irish speakers in general. I urge my colleagues in the Assembly to act without delay to copper-fasten and implement the agreement made at St Andrews.”

It’s not clear what (if any) battlelines are to be adopted, since the DUP view seems to be a point blank ‘no’. The DUP’s submission plays up the short period of consultation, and hints that this could make it subject to judicial review. It primarily objects to the language’s role as a political rallying point for nationalism; cost implications for central and local government; and argues that it is likely to augment what it views as the already positive discrimination towards Irish medium schools (roll requirements are lower than for other types of school).

In contrast, both the SDLP supports full implementation, with a rights based approach. Alliance is broadly welcoming, but notes that a rights based approach is likely to be the most problematic, arguing that “it creates entitlements and associated burdens/duties on public bodies out all proportion of need”.

However no one is yet talking about what might be compromised upon. Unionists don’t want it at all, and nationalists want it all. It could turn out be the occasion on which we see the first cross community veto hove into view.

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About Mick Fealty

Mick is founding editor of Slugger. He has written papers on the impacts of the Internet on politics and the wider media and is a regular guest and speaking events across Ireland, the UK and Europe. Twitter: @MickFealty

“The points about people not using Irish even if taught it can be explained partly by the absence of the provisions called for.”

In part ? Are you seriously suggesting that if people could have paid their gas bills in Irish there would be 500,000 people here fluent in Irish ? 😉

Dewi – the majority of Irish people don’t want Irish, the majority of people of NI don’t want Irish. That’s the reality. We need money spent on healthcare, education, water supplies, sewage works, drainage schemes etc rather than diverting resources for a few cranks and militant uber-nationalists desperately trying to salvage something from the failure of their armed struggle!

But I’ll happily go along with the result of a referendum asking the electorate of NI

” Are you prepared to pay more taxes or receive less services elsewhere in healthcare and education to meet the demands of Irish language enthusiasts ?”

Cruimh

“Itâ€™s in annex B of St Andrewâ€™s Agreement”

Go raibh maith agat OC 😉

Oilibhear Chromaill

What about a referendum asking the people of Northern Ireland do they want to continue to allow their tax funds to be diverted to policing and supporting in other ways the Orange Order rather than being spent on health,education and elsewhere?

And whether you describe Irish language enthusiasts as ‘uber nationalist’ in that peculiarly Nazi lingo of yours, it’s wrong on a point of fact to describe them as ‘militant’. For militancy look to the bowler hatted cranks waving swords around our streets…..

Cruimh

Read it OC – it’s a Westminster committment, not binding on the DUP 🙂 Westminster can introduce what egislation it likes – we do after all live in a democracy !

Cruimh

“What about a referendum asking the people of Northern Ireland do they want to continue to allow their tax funds to be diverted to policing and supporting in other ways the Orange Order rather than being spent on health,education and elsewhere? ”

Your venomous opposition to Irish and your â€˜head in the sandâ€™ attitude towards the Gaelic-speaking population of the north is pathetic and does not belong in the 21st century.

It is even more disappointing since you have illustrated before on other threads that you have some knowledge of the history of Irish and that you are aware of indigenous minority language issues in other countries.

To state again, there were thousands of native Irish speakers living throughout the north when the state was founded. I have already provided you with figures on the native Gaelic-speaking populations of South Armagh, the Sperrins, Glens of Antrim etc.

When these last speakers of East Ulster Irish died during the 1960s/70s, the revival was in full swing and we now have thousands of â€˜newâ€™ native speakers all over the north.

Irish speakers are not a bunch of fanatics – they are a community, an important section of the population that deserves equality and that does actually have support from a very significant percentage of people living here.

Cruimh

RG – please deal with the figures I have given showing that there are very,very few Irish language enthusiasts and advance a coherent argument as to why resources should be diverted to their wants. “Because we want it” said very, very loudly ad nauseam does not count 🙂

“we now have thousands of â€˜newâ€™ native speakers all over the north. ”

our electorate – adults – is well over a million -come back with your demands when you have hundreds of thousands of adult ‘native’ speakers.

oilibhear Chromaill

It’s happening here in the north, Cnuimh. There are some in the Irish language community would prefer it to happen in Westminster as it would then be enacted for the UK in its entirety and it would have competence, for instance, to deal with the shameful approach of the BBC to the Irish language. I agree the BBC should be compelled to give service to the Irish language community on a par with that given to Welsh in Wales and Scots Gaelic in Scotland but I think that it’s important to face down the anti Irish brigade of fanatics in the north once and for all. The second period of consultation on this proposed legislation is underway. The legislation will be enacted, whether it’s strong or rights based is another question.
It’s worth recalling that the DUP bought into the St Andrew’s Agreement and while they have expressed public opposition to the Irish Language Act, they will eventually bite the bullet on that also. It’s not just a Westminster commitment in my view, it binds all parties who signed up to the Agreement, including the UUP.

Dewi (Minority of one)

RG – “noone in the nationalist community is asking for Irish to be taught compulsory”. (Or those sentiments – lost the comment)

Hmmmm – an hour a week in every primary school for every kid would be an excellent idea. Would harm no-one and surely help understand respective heritages.

No need to say u all disagree – I know !!!

RG Cuan

CRUIMH

desperately trying to salvage something from the failure of their armed struggle

This line says it all and clearly illustrates how little you know about the north’s Irish speakers.

The vast majority do not use their language for political reasons, many thousand do not support SF, some not even the SDLP.

People speak Irish as their language of choice because it’s a means of communication, an expression of culture, a way of life.

Some of the most vibrant Irish speakers today do not even remember our troubled past. They are young people who have been brought up in Gaelic, attended Gaelscoils or learned the language at English-language schools.

Our future is increasingly bilingual Cruimh – open your mind and you might even be able to enjoy it.

RG Cuan

Great idea about the primary schools DEWL, along with a wee bit of Ulster Scots in areas that have a Hamely Tongue heritage.

Prehistoric animals like Nelson McCausland, Cruimh and co. would have a heart attack though…

Cruimh

OC – Your claims for the St Andrew’s agreement would only be supportable if there had been a similar referendum to the one that followed the GFA.

The DUP are right in this case – an appropriate demand has not been demonstrated.

RG – it’s upto non-political Irish Language enthusiasts like you to address the problem of the crazies in your community, in the same way as many nationalists argue that the OO sort out the crazies in their ranks.

Dewi – I have long argued that Irish language lessons should be on the syllabus in all the schools here. I’ve also suggested that those civil servants and policemen who have language skills – Chinese, Irish, Polish, whatever – should be rewarded.

Possibly OC and others should consider their own advice given to the OO – don’t demand, ask.

Cruimh

“Prehistoric animals like Nelson McCausland, Cruimh and co. would have a heart attack thoughâ€¦”

hate to disappoint – but one of the carrots I have dangled in front of nationalists to try to encourage them to abandon their sectarian schools is that if we had a properly integrated education system all children would have access to Irish Language lessons 🙂 The Free Ps and their schools are a lost cause though!

Thegull

“On a slightly philosophical point is indulging in â€œreverse social engineeringâ€ always bad ? Donâ€™t you need some counter to the global power of Anglo American cultural dominance ?”

Why? We are part of the anglosphere. Blue Peter, Neighbours and Frasier *ARE* part of our culture. Just like U2 and the Beatles are part of American culture. Why have some pretence of unrealistic cultural quarantine?

As far as I’m concerned their should be a cultural “free market”. It isn’t really the natural business of a government to either promote or inhibit culture.

Dewi

The Gull
As far as Iâ€™m concerned their should be a cultural â€œfree marketâ€. It isnâ€™t really the natural business of a government to either promote or inhibit culture.

And cultural diversity disappears just like the rainforest – but at least it’s a coherent view.

OIlibhear Chromaill

OC – Your claims for the St Andrewâ€™s agreement would only be supportable if there had been a similar referendum to the one that followed the GFA.

The DUP are right in this case – an appropriate demand has not been demonstrated.

Of course that’s patent nonsense on your part. What was the March 07 election except a referendum on the St Andrews Agreement? Surely there’s no need to have two distinct polls on the same issue within a month.

The question of ‘appropriate demand’ is not part of the St Andrew’s Agreement so therefore it doesn’t come into the equation. However to deal with it, the appropriate demand is demonstrable through the number of Irish medium schools throughout the north…..you can’t wish them away, Cnuimh, they’re there and will be an increasing element of the educational landscape in years to come, due largely to the failure of both the Maintained and the State sectors to adequately reflect Irish language and culture in their curricula.

It’s always nice, however, to see the DUP eat its own words about the GFA, especially when they get it so wrong…..

Devil Eire

“You may sneer, but the reality is that the Irish people chose to abandon the language.”

Sneering, no. Sarcasm, yes. No idea why I’m bothering at this stage since you are clearly not burdened by a respect for (or knowledge of) the facts. I’ll cast this one into the void, for the record:

‘In 1831, 30 years after Ireland officially became one of the members of the United Kingdom, the national school system was introduced into primary schools in Ireland. Since then, Irish was forbidden to be used as the medium of instruction at schools. At some schools in Ireland, “children who spoke their mother tongue in school were stigmatized by being made to hold a stick, the ‘tessera’, and then flogged at the end of the day.” (Durkacz, 1983)’

Dewi

Devil Eire – Yeah – same here but a lttle bit later. Without state suppression Ireland would be as Irish as Poland is Polish – except bits of the North of course !!

Dewi

Famine didn’t help much though – Interesting contrast in that Welsh Industrial Revolution probably saved the language. Whilst the percentage declined the absolute number of Welsh speakers didn’t peak till 1911 – and relative prosperity allowed a fairly vibrant literary scene – whilst population decline and poverty in Ireland contrast.

DavidD

Dewi, you are drawing false parallels between Wales and Ireland. First, many urban areas in Ireland (not in the north) were only Irish-speaking for a relatively brief period between the expulsion of the Norse-speaking Vikings and the arrival of the French/English-speaking invaders in the 12th century. Second, unlike the situation in Wales, the Catholic political and religious leadership in the 19th century strongly promoted Anglicisation.

Dewi

David
Not drawing parallels but contrasts actually.You are correct about the Church, a point I mentioned a while back on this thread.
Still think state suppression held in both places – difference in relative fates primarily famine v finding lots of coal in the ground and in a later inroduction of the English only schools policy along with contrasting attitudes of dominant religions.
I wonder if you could elaborate on the relatively brief periods many urban areas were Irish speaking ? We had an earlier conquest and plantation but managed to assimilate all but areas of Eastern border and the large settlement in South Pembrokesheire.. a settlement with some implications for Irish History.

Stonewall

I think people need a reality check!

Anyone who wishes to speak or learn Irish can do in Northern Ireland.

The state school system did not fail the Irish speakers because the vast majority obstained ron the state system in favour of the Catholic maintained schools that was their choice it was not some sort of state plot.

The BBc dedicates hours of TV and Radio broadcasting to Irish which is not equally represented in the minimal boadcast time given to other minority languages including Ullans.

We do not need an Irish language act it is a waste. As i said anyone wishing to speak Irish or learn it has that opportunity. It does not need to be used throughout civil society because the language used by all within our populace is english. Im sorry but i have yet to see any figures which tell me that there are thousands of native irish speakers in Northern Ireland who cannot understand English.

I am a big proponent of Ullans but there is no way that i would seek, or the Ulster-scots community would seek, the mandatory force feeding of our language on anyone.

Languages like Irish and Ullans are for people who are generally interested. Sadly neither of these minority languages are the general norm throughout our populace.

Dewi

“Im sorry but i have yet to see any figures which tell me that there are thousands of native irish speakers in Northern Ireland who cannot understand English.”

The point about not understanding English has been made many times on this thread and does some a little old fashioned and patronising. It’s about allowing a choice to be made to use Irish.

“Sadly neither of these minority languages are the general norm throughout our populace.”

And another general theme is this has to be for all time and nothing can be done about it. I applaud those who are trying.

Ulster McNulty

Stomewall

“The state school system did not fail the Irish speakers because the vast majority obstained ron the state system in favour of the Catholic maintained schools that was their choice it was not some sort of state plot”

You misunderstand him – he wasn’t talking about post 1921 NI – he was talking about pre-1921 Ireland where the state did suppress the Irish language. The situation after 1921 in Northern Ireland was that the relatively few Irish speakers remaining (after an extemely long and effective period of suppression) didn’t pass on their language to their children.

q o neill

I think the fact is , we are onto our 6th page of points, and *NOT* *ONE* person has yet made a posting in irish, this really sums up the use of irish in the real world. time to switch the life support off on this dead “language”. PS can someone please tell me the irish word for dodo, you know, as in “as dead as….” ????? ….thought so…..

Sonewall

Dewi,

I applaud those who want to keep their language alive.

But I castigate those who attempt to thrust it down the throats of others. An Irish Language act will do nothing to help the languages acceptance within a wider community context!

You say its about choice……..

Every person has the choice to learn Irish or anyother language they wish in Nothern Ireland.
An Irish language act is just political expediency. ITS NOT NEEDED!

Dewi

“Every person has the choice to learn Irish or anyother language they wish in Nothern Ireland.”

Up to you of course – but u only have real choice if you can speak. I know to my personal cost that it is difficult to learn other languages when u are old. If all r taught then decision is rational.

pÃ¡id

q o neill,

if irish was as dead as you hope it was, i doubt there would be threads as busy at this.

Start one on Yola and see how long it lasts.

Stonewall

dewi,

If all are taught?

Are you advocating that everyone b taught irish wether thy want to learn or not?

I hope not.

gaelgannaire

Stonewall,

With all due respect to Dewi, it is my understanding that he is Welsh, from a Welsh point of view everyone learning Irish is resonable, it is not desirable in the North.

Irish speakers have been and will be repeating ad naseum that no compulsory Irish is being campaigned for in the North.

Full Stop.

Unionist politicians et. al. may adopt scare tactics and imply that this is demanded, it is not from any quarter, that is a fact. To believe otherwise and to propagate the untruth of compulsion is to do a diservice to those in the unionist community who have concerns about other languages being spoken.

I personally believe that all should have the right to learn Irish. This could be achieved by the introduction of dedicated Irish teachers travelling between schools.

In fact, due to the segretation of society in the six counties / Northern Ireland, I would suggest that most unionists would not notice the introduction of an Irish Language Act.

But I castigate those who attempt to thrust it down the throats of others. An Irish Language act will do nothing to help the languages acceptance within a wider community context!

You say its about choice……..

Every person has the choice to learn Irish or anyother language they wish in Nothern Ireland.
An Irish language act is just political expediency. ITS NOT NEEDED!

So says Stonewall. I wonder what he means by the ‘wider community’. After all the LATEST figures available, published today in LÃ¡ Nua http://www.nuacht.com>here. A version in English is available http://www.northernirelandscreen.co.uk>here. These figures, derived from a survey carried out by Millward Brown of over 1000 adults across Northern Ireland, by all standards a representative survey, indicate a significant INCREASE in people who speak and understand Irish in NI – up from 10% last year to 17% or almost one in five people.

That’s not an insignificant minority by any measure and AT THE VERY LEAST, it suggests that the number of people using Irish on an everyday basis in NI is GROWING.

Perhaps the insignificant minority is represented by those who come on Slugger and try with every half baked, non evidential or crazy theory to belittle and marginalise the Irish speakers of NI. Perhaps they’re the ones who’re out of tune with the ‘wider community’. At the very least, this survey suggests that they are. Perhaps they should go and commission their own survey….and then they can talk to us with ‘authority’ on what the people of Northern Ireland want…..

“rofl…..omg !!!!! the answer is there was no word for pizza in the english dictionary before the word pizza was introduced in the english dictionary ?!!?!?!?”

Are you are as dim-witted in real life as you sound from your contribution to this thread?

barnshee

Olibhear

“standards a representative survey, indicate a significant INCREASE in people who speak and understand Irish in NI – up from 10% last year to 17% or almost one in five people. ”

I suggest you learn some basic maths
an INCREASE using percentages masks actual data
to suggest that “almost one in five people” speak and understand Irish in N Ireland is ahem cobblers- most prods heartedly despise the langauge (thanks SF)– so thats more than half gone already (and thats before we define “speak and understand).

How many people hold a GCSE in it (a damned low qualification for anything)??

The answer to all this garbage is of course to start issuing forms etc for everything associated with government in Irish and monitor the take up/usage of the items. And then dump the lot when take up fails to materialise

Please don’t argue with me, Barnshee, as you’re obviously relying on your own prejudices, thanks to the criminally fascist unionist regime from 1920 to the present day, rather than impirical data, which is provided in the Millward Brown survey I highlighted.

Do your own survey, whatever, but don’t forget this was a survey carried out amongst adults throughout Northern Ireland and is described as representative by the polling company. If you have a difficulty with the results, which I would understand as it undermines the unionist position as outlined by neanderthals such as the DUP’s Simon Hamilton who issued this statement today:
â€œCASH SPENT ON IRISH LANGUAGE IS MONEY DOWN THE DRAINâ€ SAYS HAMILTON

Strangford DUP MLA Simon Hamilton has said that an Irish Government commissioned study into the Irish language proves that resources spent on the language are wasted. The report – penned by the NUI â€“ concludes that Irish will cease to exist as the language of Ireland and the Gaeltacht community within 20 years if current trends continue. In light of the recent remarks by Gerry Adams regarding proposed Irish Language legislation, Mr Hamilton said that the report should act as a word of warning to the new Northern Ireland Executive when it comes to consider expenditure on the Irish language. Commenting, Simon Hamilton said,

â€œThis Irish Government study is a damning indictment of how, no matter what amount of resources are squandered on the Irish language, significant expenditure on Irish is money down the drain. To find that Irish is a dying language in areas of Ireland specifically devoted to the use and promotion of the Irish language says it all.

It would seem that the findings of this report are so explosive that despite the fact that the report was finished in April, the Dublin Government sat on the report over the duration of the recent election in the south and donâ€™t intend to publish it fully until the autumn.

This report should stand as a stark warning to our own Executive when it considers where to spend its own limited resources. I was horrified to recently receive a response to an Assembly question from the Education Minister Catriona Ruane that her Department spent a provisional total of Â£11,721,530 on the Irish language and teaching in that medium in 2006/2007. This is appalling when we consider that special needs in the South Eastern Education and Library Board area had to endure over Â£1 million in cuts whilst nearly Â£12 million is spent on the Irish language. An overall total of Â£3.5 million of severe cuts were forced upon schools in the SEELB area resulting in the closure of special needs units in some schools and cutbacks in the number of classroom assistants. What should the Executiveâ€™s priority be â€“ something like special needs education or a language that canâ€™t be saved even in areas of special status?

The Irish Government have been more than generous towards the Gaeltacht devoting a Government department to it as well as the likes of exclusive road signage and a radio station. Yet in spite of their substantial investment, the Irish Government now find that it has been money drain the drain with the Irish language dying out in even the Gaeltacht. Seemingly, no matter what is done, no matter what special status is afforded to the Irish language it cannot compete with English even in an area where it is given every advantage.

With a demand for investment in our infrastructure and the need for efficient and effective public services, and our new Ministers operating within an extremely tight budgetary framework, there is absolutely no room for extravagances like the Irish language. Resources should be spent on unravelling the damage done by Direct Rule and not wasted on the Irish language.”

The Assembly Question referred to is detailed below:

AQW 909/07

Simon Hamilton has asked;

To ask the Minister for Education to confirm that, in 2006/07, her departmentâ€™s expenditure on the Irish language and Irish-medium teaching was close to Â£13 million.

ANSWER

The Department of Educationâ€™s expenditure on the Irish language and Irish-medium teaching for 2006/07 is provisionally Â£11,721,530.

What the broad minded Hamilton doesn’t mention, however, is that to discontinue Irish medium education, which continually gives better results than the English language equivalent, wouldn’t result in a saving of money at all as those children, those thousands of children attending Irish medium schools, would still require an education, teachers etc. And it would take more money to get anything close to the same results…..

DavidD

Dewi. To answer the question that you posed earlier, the Norse founded several urban settlements on the east coast. They certainly maintained their language in Ireland as is illustrated by the fact that when they made a secondary settlement in Iceland, although local Irish WAGs accompanied them, the culture of Iceland was purely Norse. These Scandinavians retained a separate identity (the Ostmen) in some areas at least until the Norman invasion although they may have been speaking Irish by then.

Your point about the importance of urbanisation in the 19th century in the perpetuation of Welsh is well made and it is significant that the continuance of Welsh-speaking communities in the towns owed much to the influence of their religious leadership and the generally benign attitude of local politicians.

My main point though was that the perpetuation of Irish in Ireland, particularly Northern Ireland, is a problem of revival rather than survival and this is best achieved by a low-key appeal for the funding of enthusiasts rather than abrasive demands which will prove counter-productive.

barnshee

“Please donâ€™t argue with me, Barnshee, as youâ€™re obviously relying on your own prejudices, thanks to the criminally fascist unionist regime from 1920 to the present day, rather than impirical data, which is provided in the Millward Brown survey I highlighted. ”

MB Survey demonstrably invalid -its an INTERNET survey.
What is take up of internet in NI? (prod/mick figures needed)(not to mention telephone take up to ensure internet access)er pass

Everyone in Northern Ireland and The Republic use words from Ullans every day so lets have an Ullans Act instead because everyone uses it wether they know it or not!

Irish should be spoken i agree wholeheartedly!!!
Everyone who wishes to learn it or speak it can do if they wish in Our Wee Country of Northern Ireland. Anyone who says it is restricted by a state plot is simply kidding themselves and once again looking for those evil Protestant Bogey men under the bed!

No one is belittleing or marginalising Irish speakers in Northern Ireland they are free to use their language. But the language of civil society is English, everyone uses it and understands it. Its not a case of neglecting one of our native languages its the practicality and reality of life. We do not want to end up like Quebec where people look disgusted at you if you cant speak french or dare to speak English. And i hardly think that french was the native toungue of the original inhabitants the same as the Irish today bares no semblence to the language spoken by the first peoples on this Island.

If you wanna learn it or speak it go ahead! you are free to do so! It is not however needed to be enforced throughout civil society, we do not need an Act!

Dewi (Minority of one again)

“My main point though was that the perpetuation of Irish in Ireland, particularly Northern Ireland, is a problem of revival rather than survival and this is best achieved by a low-key appeal for the funding of enthusiasts rather than abrasive demands which will prove counter-productive”

I agree David – personally don’t think that allowing the use of Irish in courts is an abrasive demand.

Stonewall – none of the nationalist posters are asking for compulsory Irish in schools. I, however, think it would be a good idea !

Stonewall

Dewi,

Then you would agree that all Northern Irelands indiginous minority Languages should be compulsory?

How can you think its a good idea for a language to be compulsory when the majority of those in the education system and indeed the population of the state have no affinity nor desire to learn the language?

You obviously have no understanding of Northern Ireland!

The Danger of an Irish Language act is that it does make it compulsory for things to be enforced! It will only cause more alienation!
Its not wanted or needed!

Dewi

Stonewall – so difficult to learn when you are old – would help common understanding of heritage and is part of the Protestant peoples’ heritage also. I won’t keep on as no one agrees with me – but hells bells I had to learn French and Latin in school – surley Irish more relevant to people from Ulster ? Don’t have to answer Stonewall – these threads don’t seem to be very productive (unless u have summat funny to say of course !!!)

Stonewall

Dewi,

Its not a question of it being part of peoples heritage. If it was i would point out that the majority of the populace of Northern Ireland is of Scots decent and therefore at no part in their history did these people use Irish as a medium of communication. They used Ullans and laterly english.

You should also know that it was these scots Presbyterian Protestants who gave the Irish back their language!

So we dont need preached at about heritage and what we should know.

gaelgannaire

‘and therefore at no part in their history did these people use Irish as a medium of communication’.

The majority of Scots have ancestors who at somepoint in time spoke Gaelic, for example many Scots settlers came from Galloway, solidy Gaelic speaking even well after the plantation. The majority of Galloway placenames are anglicisatons of Gaelic, e.g StrÃ³n Reamhar ‘fat nose’ (Stranraer).

Also if one examines Scots names in Northern Ireland, it will be found that a slim majority not originate in the Gaelic language (Irish or Scottish).

For example, McCausland (

Prince Eoghan

Very well put gaelgannaire! The short crossing from Portpatrick in Galloway ensured that these people had more in common than most. The seaways were the motorways of today, as much of the inland routes were either impenetrable or hostile.

Dewi @ 06:54 PM

This is what you get for entering the lair of the fascist beast ;Â¬) Now what stupid guy is going to dump a handsome fella like yourself (btw weren’t you offered Elenwe? by the very hospitable Turgon)

Oh and I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment of our native languages in school. I only wish the Scottish education system gave us the chance to be bored of learning ‘oor mither tongue’ Times are changing though, and the Gaelic schools in Glasgow are growing as parents have them oversubscribed.

pÃ¡id

Dewi,

got dumped by text once. Not nice. In time though, you might feel superior……

Go on the raz then tonite, innit?

Nos Da.

Reader

OC: … to discontinue Irish medium education, which continually gives better results than the English language equivalent, wouldnâ€™t result in a saving of money at all as those children, those thousands of children attending Irish medium schools, would still require an education, teachers etc. And it would take more money to get anything close to the same results…
No it wouldn’t. I am sympathetic to the continued existence of Irish medium schools for various reasons. But the argument you gave is rubbish. The schools have a relatively small class size and also attract pupils from motivated families. That’s enough to get good results. It would be cheaper to get those children educated in ordinary schools, and most of them would probably still get good results.
Maybe all pupils should have small class sizes and supportive parents?

stonewall

gaelgannaire,

the last parliament held in Scotland in Gaelic was in the Borders by Robert the Bruce it was the last one because gaelic in the lowlands and Islands was a dead language even then and he recognised that.

Galloway and Ayrshire and the lowlands were solidly lallans speaking by the time the Scots re-settled Ulster in the early 17th century. So no they did not speak gaelic they spoke lallans.
Bishop Percy of Down and Dromore even complained about the Thousands of Scots crossing over speaking their own Scots Toungue outnumbering the Oficial church and even the Irish. Up until the act of Union between England and Scotland it was Lallans which was the official language of Scotland not Gaelic. You can read a whole host of documents written by James VI especially which are all in lallans. Let us be rid of this wonderous fairytail of a great united Gaelic and celtic world which simply did not exist!

A department in Dublin castle had to be dedicated to the translation of official documents comming from Ulster from Scots to English and then from english to scots to send back in the 17th century.

As for an antiquated society in Belfast?

The Scottish Church hand picked 6 clergy at the time of the scots crossing in the early 17th Century. Each was fluent in Gaelic so that he could best be equiped to interact with the Irish population as well as those in the Glenns etc….
Each one wrote to the general assembly that “no-one either Irish or Scots speaks Gaelic here” and they had to conduct themselves in English and lallans. You can read about it in the General assembly archives if you want. The first Bible in Irish was written by Presbyterian ministers, a copy is still in Hillsborough Parish church. Irish was dying until the Presbyterian clergy saved it to say otherwise is a romantic myth!

As for surnames etc……..

You will find that the Irish MCs are in a majority case just Irish Branches of Scottish Clans. The McMahons are a branch of the Matheson Clan etc……..Open up the Northern Ireland phone directory and you will find all the proof you need as to the origins of our population. We keep hearing about these great gaelic names for the Clans,only translated into gaelic because of romantic georgian and victorian revivalists.

next you will be telling me that the Name Maharg is an Irish one too, like Adams, Hume etc etc…..;)

But we digress! I would be happy to continue this part of he debate in private e-mails rather than clutter this topic. oh and yes……. NO TO AN IRISH LANGUAGE ACT its not needed.

gaelgannaire

‘You will find that the Irish MCs are in a majority case just Irish Branches of Scottish Clans. The McMahons are a branch of the Matheson Clan etc……..Open up the Northern Ireland phone directory and you will find all the proof you need as to the origins of our population. We keep hearing about these great gaelic names for the Clans,only translated into gaelic because of romantic georgian and victorian revivalists’

Stonewall,

Again the above statement is a classic.

I’m going to forward it to all my scottish friends. The final sentence of your statement is the fundamental one and cuts right to the heart of the thing. It is obviously without any basis.

There are clearly many statements made on a blog that people don’t actually believe, I suspect you however geninuely believe what you are saying however. There is no way I can convince you otherwise, but perhaps I could point you in the direction of Robert Bell’s Ulster Surnames, should be available in book shops.

By the way Bell is for the most part an anglicisation of the the Gaelic Mac Giolla Mhaoil, but don’t trust me, read a few books.

Check out the current issue of Familia from the Ulster historical foundation.

You speak of ‘clans’. Stonewall clann is the Gaelic word for children. It Clan Mc Donald comes from Clann Mhic Dhomhnaill, it means McDonald’s children.

By the way Matheson is an anglicisation of Mac MhathÃºna! Not the other way round!

Maharg, sorry to break this to you but Maharg is a variant of Mac Illhagga, a Gaelic surname, I donâ€™t have the original form to hand but it is clearly a Mac â€˜Ille â€˜son of the servant surname.

I do not feel that this forum can advance understanding of this diamentrically opposed views.

I would appreciate any pointers to academic material which would support your assertions on scottish surnames.

I use Black as my standard reference.

Dewi

“This is what you get for entering the lair of the fascist beast ;Â¬) Now what stupid guy is going to dump a handsome fella like yourself (btw werenâ€™t you offered Elenwe? by the very hospitable Turgon)”

Barnshee, I’d retract your claim that this survey is demonstrably invalid – it was a survey conducted on a professional basis like any other survey. This attempt to undermine the survey’s methodology with baseless claims on your part acknowledges that the survey suggests that everything you believe about Irish is WRONG.

As for Stonewall, in numerous instances, the Equality Commission for example, people have been prohibted from speaking Irish in public, in a work situation for example. The Equality Commission, laughably, has claimed in a memo to employers that employees speaking in Irish in one another creates a so called chill factor for unionist employees.

Stonewall

gaelgannaire,

Your translation of Maharg has just outted your nonsence and fabrications!

Maharg comes into existence in the early 17th Century as a means for a branch of the Graham family to hide from the authorities in Ulster. It is simply thir name spelt backwards! This is undisputed historic fact. I only slipped the name in to see who would bite and try to make up some fantasy Gaelic origin.

Sadly it was you my friend.

I would suggest you do some reading instead for i have done plenty on the Reivers in Ulster and their Surnames and origins. Maharg is not gaelic it never has been gaelic.

but maybe your right some people do tend to believe wat they post eh?

Stonewall

McHargue
~origin of the name~
The McHargue’s were originally the Clan Graham
of Scotland, but when driven out of Scotland to
Ireland, they spelled their name backwards, as
“Maharg,” to avoid being captured and killed.
Over time, the name Maharg evolved into other
spellings/verions/septs, such as
Meharg, McHarg, McHargue, McIlhagga, McQuarg.
The Graham Clan (therefore the McHargue Clan)
tartan, badge, motto, etc., are shown below.

Perhaps this exert from the McHargue Clan site might help you in your research gaelgannaire.

Dewi

“The McHargueâ€™s were originally the Clan Graham
of Scotland, but when driven out of Scotland to
Ireland, they spelled their name backwards, as
â€œMaharg”

Stonewall – if you are not making that up i’s wonderful !!

Stonewall

Dewi,

No Im not making it up.

Its a great story which is also confirmed in George MacDonald Fraser’s “The Steel Bonnets” along with any other source on the Border Reivers you could care to mention. Or you can watch the Documentary “DEBATEABLE LANDS – In search of the Border Reivers” Border 2000 productions 1997.

Im currnetly in the process of researching the Reivers in Ulster for various projects and the info on them is brilliant.

gaelgannaire

Stonwall,

I cite no website. The fact that you do would question the accuracy of your information.

The fact that you cite such a reference, which has been discounted by all academic opinion really confirms to me that you have some research to do.

I site Bell, the recongized authority on Ulster Surnames. He rejects your theory outright.

Mr Bell is not a nationalist to my knowledge.

Your ‘source’ does confirm however the presence of mc/mac in a number of variant forms confirm a Gaelic original.

I will investigate Black at the first oppurtunity.

Linguistically speaking, whilsy Maharg could concieveably come from McIllhaga etc. the reverse is inconcieveable. This is concerned with the mechanics of speech rather than social linguistics.

But, in terms of social circumstances it is also inconcievable that a lowland family would a add Mac to their name to produce a patronymic any more than in the present day.

Good luck with your research.

Dewi

gaelgannaire

THe Graham hypothesis is a lovely theory though. It is, of course possiblr for the same name to come into existance via a number od separate histories…can’t we believe this is one of those occasions ?

gaelgannaire

Dewi,

Of course, in fact, despite the prevailing academic opinion, I suspect that some Mahargs may well be Grahams, it is a possiblity.

There are a number of factors mitigating againist it however, 1. The variant spellings of Graham itself and 2. the high degree of illiteracy in previous centuries.

However the fact that Maharg (of the McIllhagga variety) were also around lends to the possiblty somewhat.

But I have a confession to make, I am a professional onomastician. I come across similar stories about place-names and family names every day. I don’t set out to wreck people’s beliefs etc, I record them, acknowledge them and move on looking for the ‘truth’, using my professional knowledge.

From a folkloric point of view (which never implies false!) it is a great story, sure.

I would caution againist any use whatsoever of the internet whilst research surnames especially however.

Incidentally, whilst in company I am happy to discuss my work concerning place-names, I choose rarely to discuss family names. For example. I have found that many Gillespies don’t want to know their name is from the Gaelic (Irish & Scottish) Mac Giolla Easpuig so I don’t tell them.

I mean Willie McCrae doesn’t want to know that McCrae is an anglicisation of Mac Ra(i)th ‘son of grace/good fortune’, so why get annoyed?

Dewi

“But I have a confession to make, I am a professional onomastician” – Excellent ! – I love fellow geeks. We got some real strange names developed here – the patron Ap or Ab shortened to P or B and then follwed by a Christian name – the sort of obvious ones Price,Bowen, Pritchard, Parry, Pugh etc but then the more bizarre ones like Badham (from ab Adam) which I wouldn’t have thought was Welsh in a thousand years.
Then there’s stuff like Cecil (from Seisyllt) and Yorath (Iorwerth) whi’se Welsh origin surprised me.
Anyway as an onomastician why is Mervyn such a popular name amongst Unionists ? Just a fashion ?

gaelgannaire

Dewi,

Perhaps it because a little magic is needed to cook up some etymologies!

I’m away. I’ll hae a wee luk at the computer agin tha marra as we say at hame.

G’luck.

Rem what i said about these difficulties originating in Scotland BTW.

Cruimh

“the more bizarre ones like Badham (from ab Adam) which I wouldnâ€™t have thought was Welsh in a thousand years. Then thereâ€™s stuff like Cecil (from Seisyllt) and Yorath (Iorwerth) whiâ€™se Welsh origin surprised me.”

Dewi – and gaelgannaire – just goes to show how inclusive the anglo/british culture is 🙂

barnshee

Olly
“Barnshee, Iâ€™d retract your claim that this survey is demonstrably invalid – it was a survey conducted on a professional basis like any other survey. This attempt to undermine the surveyâ€™s methodology with baseless claims on your part acknowledges that the survey suggests that everything you believe about Irish is WRONG. ”

Which of my claims are baseless??

(A degree in mathematics AND STSTISTICS HELPS)

Stonewall

gaelgannaire,

The Historical recognised fact is that Maharg comes from the Graham family!

I suggest you have research to do! Or are the Hamilton and Montgommery manuscripts (available in ebook form if you want them)historically bogus?

are historians throughout the borders and in Ulster lying about the Maharg name?

Are the Mahargs in Dongal and Monaghan (who i know many of personally) lying about their family history?

You asked me to cite acasemic refferences of which George MacDonald Fraser is one. A world wide recognised expert on Border and Reiver History. Or is he a liar as well?

Maharg is as Gaelic as Smyth is chinese.

I will follow the word of historians and the families themselves on this one thanks.

Stop trying to grasp at vacuous nonsence and deal in the recognised facts!

Stonewall

gaelgannaire,

And seeing as we are throwing around job tittles etc I have a MSSC in the topic of Migration studies of which the Migration of Scots to Ulster in the 17th Century was my chosen topic. So yeah ive done a wee bit of research.

gaelgannaire

Stonewall,

Thanks for the refs.

I did not call anyone a liar.

I simply disagree with the sources you cite in favour of specific specialist publications from experts in the field (of surnames) rather than general histories.

I certainely don’t claim that any families are lying, simply that they have passed on a folk memory and a good one at that. Most families hold traditions of some kind, that doesnt mean they are necessarily true, neither does it mean they are illegimate.

I dont claim any historical source as bogus, simply a historical sources, not gospel truth.

With all due respect to Mr McDonald Fraser, as you have stated he is an expert in Border and Reiver history, not in linguistics, a branch of which the study of surnames is.

With all due respect to yourself, I think that this topic has slipped far from the subject of the thread.

I hope to see your opinions, which you have certainely convinced me that you hold sincerly, in print so that they can be subjected to peer review.

Thank you.

Stonewall

gaelgannaire,

Taking Bell as gospel truth is also a mistake on your part. His work is not infalible.

He cites the Lillie/Lilly family of laganvalley as originating with the French heagonots(i know thats spelt wrong)in the late 17th Century. Where as the historical fact is that they crossed from Scotland with their neighbours the Smyth family from Ayrshire during the Hamilton and Montgomery settlement of over 400 years ago. The two families settled in a three cottage close outside hillsborough in an area called the Gulf. So Bell can be and is wrong at times.

Stonewall

With respect i think academic linguists can get carried away and are to quick to put aside historical sources in favour of pure academic linguistic study. Often the Origins of names etc can have a simple reason which linguists find hard to accept. Because surnames fall under linguistics does not make you right all the time gaelgannaire i would suggest that it can cloud your mind to all other possibilities even the historically accepted ones.

gaelgannaire

Stonewall,

You are of course correct about Bell. There are weaknesses with the work. In fact his lack of Scottish Gaelic I would consider one of them.

I don’t take it as gospel. It is unfortunately the standard work at this point. I intend to check other sources about the Maharg name as soon as. I also intend to consult someone who is somewhat of an expert on Scots and Scots Gaelic in general.

If the email address you give is genuine I will pass on the information I recieve.

The reason for my own sureness is the that the historical forms and variant spellings indicate a ‘mac’ surname.

Im sure you have a copy of Black, again merely a source, but a good one I’m sure you will agree. I am going to take a look as well as at other scottish sources, generally weaker at this point than Irish surname research.

G’luck

gaelgannaire

Stonewall,

In fact, If you read post no. 2 on this page, you will actually find I have been most open to your suggestion, despite my reservations.

I am not right all the time but I am meticulous in my work and have never set aside a single historical source except when the explanation provided defines the laws of linguistics. Even then, I would take the time to explain the dismissal.

As you have not stated that somehow I have called someone a lier, are we making progress?

Have you no pub to go to?

Stonewall

It certainly is my e-mail.

I will Look forward to your imformation as i am genuinly interested in your line of work. I warn you it will take something very special to break down the historical sources which i too shall consult again.

I hope you have enjoyed this “joust” as much as i have.

Many thanks.

lib2016

gaelgannaire & Stonewall

On behalf of all the lurkers it would be much appreciated if you (both) could share the fruits of any further research.

Thanks

Stonewall

I wish i was at the pub!

Waiting or the other half to get here first. lol

I retract the word liar, as you can probably understand i am quite stong hearted when it comes to topics which are dear to me. 🙂

What part of this don’t you understand, Barnshee? Where does it say here that the research carried out was an INTERNET survey?

Results of Audience Research commissioned by ILBF
Results of Audience Research commissioned by Irish Language Broadcast Fund

The Irish Language Broadcast Fund (ILBF) is proud to publish the results of the audience research which has been conducted by Millward Brown Ulster on its behalf over the last two years. The research was commissioned to establish the views, opinions and perceptions of three defined populations within the ILBF constituency as follows: the general Northern Ireland population; key ILBF stakeholders and ILBF trainees.

Results from general Northern Ireland population survey:
A total of 1029 adults were interviewed in 2007 compared to 1013 on the previous wave in 2006. The sample, in both cases, was broadly representative of the Northern Ireland adult population.