That reminds me. The team I have in 60 I'll transfer out so as not to mess with any TOGS teams if I run a warrior or 2 in the near future.

The ConsortiumArchMaster Poster

Joined: Nov 23, 2002
Posts: 8976
Location: on the golf course, in the garden, reading, traveling, and now Consulting

Posted:
Thu Feb 28, 2008 7:47 am

nuln wrote:

What's lame about all this, is that certain people made a big deal out of what was a blatantly careless error that resulted in a rule infraction, which essentially had little impact on the contest. Yes yes yes, I understand that if his team hadn't run, then x, y & z could have happened, and the course of the future would have been irrevocably changed. But the fact is that no challenges were issued, and they were thrown in the matchup pool with the rest of them. That being said, I'm going to rule that each of the 4 losers be awarded the full 7 pts as if they had matched up and beaten a TOGS opponent, the best of possible circumstances. And yes, that includes Craig's team. And if anyone accuses me of showing FONZ favoritism aka colluding, maybe you'd like to remember back 2-3 TOGS ago, when Craig sent his spot in on time but neglected to cc me and I ruled against him. Oh, and Pauly will mess with your windshield too.

Craig, Trav, if you two drop out because of this I wouldn't bail, but I would seriously lose interest in this contest. While I understand your reasons completely, I just think it's wrong to DQ yourselves over what a paranoid few have done to put a false spin campaign on what is a non-issue. Screw what they say, come back, please.

I'd also just like to mention that the whole point of TOGS is to have FUN, which is precisely why there is no glorious prize for the winners.

Oh no, it's the taint of TOGS!!! I can see it in all the spotlights now !!

Thanks, Commish.
We accept and support.
Craig and Travis cannot quit. Now THAT would be a real taint!
Let the games resume .................................

What's lame about all this, is that certain people made a big deal out of what was a blatantly careless error that resulted in a rule infraction, which essentially had little impact on the contest. Yes yes yes, I understand that if his team hadn't run, then x, y & z could have happened, and the course of the future would have been irrevocably changed. But the fact is that no challenges were issued, and they were thrown in the matchup pool with the rest of them. That being said, I'm going to rule that each of the 4 losers be awarded the full 7 pts as if they had matched up and beaten a TOGS opponent, the best of possible circumstances. And yes, that includes Craig's team. And if anyone accuses me of showing FONZ favoritism aka colluding, maybe you'd like to remember back 2-3 TOGS ago, when Craig sent his spot in on time but neglected to cc me and I ruled against him. Oh, and Pauly will mess with your windshield too.

Craig, Trav, if you two drop out because of this I wouldn't bail, but I would seriously lose interest in this contest. While I understand your reasons completely, I just think it's wrong to DQ yourselves over what a paranoid few have done to put a false spin campaign on what is a non-issue. Screw what they say, come back, please.

I'd also just like to mention that the whole point of TOGS is to have FUN, which is precisely why there is no glorious prize for the winners.

Oh no, it's the taint of TOGS!!! I can see it in all the spotlights now !!

Thanks, Commish.
We accept and support.
Craig and Travis cannot quit. Now THAT would be a real taint!
Let the games resume .................................

I'm guessing that they won't be returning and I'm pretty sure others will join them. I'm going to talk with Hombre tonight but there's a decent chance we'll be one of the teams joining Trav and Craig. You called for a DQ, you got it and now you don't want it. You can't have it both ways.

The ConsortiumArchMaster Poster

Joined: Nov 23, 2002
Posts: 8976
Location: on the golf course, in the garden, reading, traveling, and now Consulting

Posted:
Thu Feb 28, 2008 12:52 pm

Elephant wrote:

The Consortium wrote:

nuln wrote:

What's lame about all this, is that certain people made a big deal out of what was a blatantly careless error that resulted in a rule infraction, which essentially had little impact on the contest. Yes yes yes, I understand that if his team hadn't run, then x, y & z could have happened, and the course of the future would have been irrevocably changed. But the fact is that no challenges were issued, and they were thrown in the matchup pool with the rest of them. That being said, I'm going to rule that each of the 4 losers be awarded the full 7 pts as if they had matched up and beaten a TOGS opponent, the best of possible circumstances. And yes, that includes Craig's team. And if anyone accuses me of showing FONZ favoritism aka colluding, maybe you'd like to remember back 2-3 TOGS ago, when Craig sent his spot in on time but neglected to cc me and I ruled against him. Oh, and Pauly will mess with your windshield too.

Craig, Trav, if you two drop out because of this I wouldn't bail, but I would seriously lose interest in this contest. While I understand your reasons completely, I just think it's wrong to DQ yourselves over what a paranoid few have done to put a false spin campaign on what is a non-issue. Screw what they say, come back, please.

I'd also just like to mention that the whole point of TOGS is to have FUN, which is precisely why there is no glorious prize for the winners.

Oh no, it's the taint of TOGS!!! I can see it in all the spotlights now !!

Thanks, Commish.
We accept and support.
Craig and Travis cannot quit. Now THAT would be a real taint!
Let the games resume .................................

I'm guessing that they won't be returning and I'm pretty sure others will join them. I'm going to talk with Hombre tonight but there's a decent chance we'll be one of the teams joining Trav and Craig. You called for a DQ, you got it and now you don't want it. You can't have it both ways.

Well, you can be assured that you aren't the only ones who said that if Trav/Craig dropped, they would. That would certainly make this the most "tainted" of all the TOGS (or any other events), wouldn't it? We can just imagine some of the flaming such an occurrance would provoke.

What's lame about all this, is that certain people made a big deal out of what was a blatantly careless error that resulted in a rule infraction, which essentially had little impact on the contest. Yes yes yes, I understand that if his team hadn't run, then x, y & z could have happened, and the course of the future would have been irrevocably changed. But the fact is that no challenges were issued, and they were thrown in the matchup pool with the rest of them. That being said, I'm going to rule that each of the 4 losers be awarded the full 7 pts as if they had matched up and beaten a TOGS opponent, the best of possible circumstances. And yes, that includes Craig's team. And if anyone accuses me of showing FONZ favoritism aka colluding, maybe you'd like to remember back 2-3 TOGS ago, when Craig sent his spot in on time but neglected to cc me and I ruled against him. Oh, and Pauly will mess with your windshield too.

Craig, Trav, if you two drop out because of this I wouldn't bail, but I would seriously lose interest in this contest. While I understand your reasons completely, I just think it's wrong to DQ yourselves over what a paranoid few have done to put a false spin campaign on what is a non-issue. Screw what they say, come back, please.

I'd also just like to mention that the whole point of TOGS is to have FUN, which is precisely why there is no glorious prize for the winners.

Oh no, it's the taint of TOGS!!! I can see it in all the spotlights now !!

Thanks, Commish.
We accept and support.
Craig and Travis cannot quit. Now THAT would be a real taint!
Let the games resume .................................

I'm guessing that they won't be returning and I'm pretty sure others will join them. I'm going to talk with Hombre tonight but there's a decent chance we'll be one of the teams joining Trav and Craig. You called for a DQ, you got it and now you don't want it. You can't have it both ways.

Well, you can be assured that you aren't the only ones who said that if Trav/Craig dropped, they would. That would certainly make this the most "tainted" of all the TOGS (or any other events), wouldn't it? We can just imagine some of the flaming such an occurrance would provoke.

We hope it goes otherwise.

I am not a member of the FONZ nor have I spoke with any of them outside of Hombre. I want to be clear that Iím not speaking for them. Hereís my take.

Basically it was implied that Trav and other members of the FONZ are cheaters, liars, trying to gain an unfair advantage etc. This is total BS. I would think that someone like yourself that has known Trav as long as you have would've given him the benefit of doubt. I'm not blaming you for all of this, but you have certainly played a part. I think your use (as well as others) of the word tainted isn't helping. So the next time you throw the word ďtaintedĒ or any variation of it around take a good look at yourself. Youíve tainted this just as much as the next guy. Trying to guilt them back IMO is adding insult to injury. If you truly want them back maybe an apology (in private) would help.

Why would you call for a DQ and then be against Trav and Craig pulling out of the contest? I stated that last post, now Iím asking, pretty please.

ApexArchMaster Poster

Joined: Jul 01, 2002
Posts: 1647
Location: Sevierville, Tennessee

Posted:
Thu Feb 28, 2008 1:35 pm

Now I might have missed something, but I don't remember the Consortium calling for them to be DQ'd. I was thinking it was JGW. Granted, I have no dog in this fight as I'm not playing, but this shit has went on far enough. It's getting pissy and it's making everyone that IS involved look like morons. Like I said, I might be wrong, but I don't this is the case.

_________________Apex =
1) The highest point; The vertex
2) The point of culmination
3) The usually pointed end of an object; the tip

_Indimar_Advanced Master Poster

Joined: Jun 15, 2006
Posts: 300
Location: SLO County

Posted:
Thu Feb 28, 2008 1:52 pm

The Consortium wrote:

pipthetroll wrote:

Oh, thought this was gonna be topic covering the running of two teams in 60 by one of the TOGs managers, and their points for this turn not counting due to breaking the rules.

TOGS judges, can we get a ruling on this one?

If someone is running another team at the same time, they should not only be penalized, but gone!
(THAT'S OVER-COLLUSION!)

There you have it.

_________________I hear the next TOGS is just around the corner.

JGWArchMaster Poster

Joined: Sep 05, 2005
Posts: 1316

Posted:
Thu Feb 28, 2008 1:56 pm

Apex wrote:

Now I might have missed something, but I don't remember the Consortium calling for them to be DQ'd. I was thinking it was JGW. Granted, I have no dog in this fight as I'm not playing, but this shit has went on far enough. It's getting pissy and it's making everyone that IS involved look like morons. Like I said, I might be wrong, but I don't this is the case.

I believe Consortium they should, "not only be penalized, but gone!"

Now with that said I did agree with him. My beef is not with anyone, and I've made my point clear privately. I choose not to talk about this any more. Nuln has made his point on the matter clear. Hopefully TOGS will go on.

If those who have decided to drop follow through I would say just cancel the contest, refund all the certs, and plan this for later in the year. Hopefully that will allow for things to die down and the alleged 'taint' to be dissolved. This might give others an opportunity to jump into the ring, say, after the summer F2F.

Time to move on. There is nothing to see here.

_________________The only maxim of a free government ought to be to trust no man living with power to endanger the public liberty. -- John Adams

It's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees. -- Midnight Oil, The Power and the Passion

ApexArchMaster Poster

Joined: Jul 01, 2002
Posts: 1647
Location: Sevierville, Tennessee

Posted:
Thu Feb 28, 2008 2:02 pm

Then I stand corrected. Thank you. Now, please get back to playing...

_________________Apex =
1) The highest point; The vertex
2) The point of culmination
3) The usually pointed end of an object; the tip

The ConsortiumArchMaster Poster

Joined: Nov 23, 2002
Posts: 8976
Location: on the golf course, in the garden, reading, traveling, and now Consulting

Posted:
Thu Feb 28, 2008 2:13 pm

Elephant wrote:

The Consortium wrote:

Elephant wrote:

I'm guessing that they won't be returning and I'm pretty sure others will join them. I'm going to talk with Hombre tonight but there's a decent chance we'll be one of the teams joining Trav and Craig. You called for a DQ, you got it and now you don't want it. You can't have it both ways.

Well, you can be assured that you aren't the only ones who said that if Trav/Craig dropped, they would. That would certainly make this the most "tainted" of all the TOGS (or any other events), wouldn't it? We can just imagine some of the flaming such an occurrance would provoke.

We hope it goes otherwise.

I am not a member of the FONZ nor have I spoke with any of them outside of Hombre. I want to be clear that Iím not speaking for them. Hereís my take.

Basically it was implied that Trav and other members of the FONZ are cheaters, liars, trying to gain an unfair advantage etc. This is total BS. I would think that someone like yourself that has known Trav as long as you have would've given him the benefit of doubt. I'm not blaming you for all of this, but you have certainly played a part. I think your use (as well as others) of the word tainted isn't helping. So the next time you throw the word ďtaintedĒ or any variation of it around take a good look at yourself. Youíve tainted this just as much as the next guy. Trying to guilt them back IMO is adding insult to injury. If you truly want them back maybe an apology (in private) would help.

Why would you call for a DQ and then be against Trav and Craig pulling out of the contest? I stated that last post, now Iím asking, pretty please.

Your points are good ones, although not all correct.

I accept that I have played a part. I wish I had not commented so soon and although not intentionally meant to be harsh, in certain cases I wish I had chosen other words. I do not regret providing my opinion.

I think it incorrect to imply/state that I called for disqualification. I did not. I was the first to say "inadvertant" when I had no idea as to the facts, which should show that because of my knowledge/trust of Travis, I assumed/believed it had to be unintentional. I certainly consider Travis (and Craig) close friends, and hope that it has been shown over time to them that I am a friend.

Early on in the posts,after that, everyone was assuming the same. The JGW (outside of TOGS) post is the only instance I know of someone saying DQ. (other than your comments and in personal discussions with Craig on the phone.)

I have tried and will continue to try to keep this "even-keeled". The emotional responses, and especially those that say "quit" do make this more difficult.

Any people who decide to quit over it, or threaten to quit over it, have a right to do so, but they must know that the statements and the subsequent decision do, indeed, reflect on TOGS and what it is. If adding "taint" is the wrong word, then so be it. But clearly the reflection is not positive. and it is exacerbated by the talk of exiting.

I am truly sorry to see this situation "explode" into something way, way beyond what it/was. It is not worth all those emotions. TOGS is a great event, and it is an event that has been "sponsored" by the FONZ over the years, and sponsored well. I expect and want to see it continue that way.

I may be one of those who give the FONZ a lot of crap (e.g. FONZ = or use "collude" in every statement ), and I can certainly stimulate some oneupmanship with the best of them, but I think they all know that I treasure my previous close fellowship with the FONZ.

So, I am ASKING everyone, including Craig and Travis to please close this conversation down, get back to playing, with all teams intact. If I can do anything to foster that occurrance, I shall do so.

Elephant, just to clear this up, I never implied, inferred, or said publicly or privately that FONZ was cheating. The first direct mention of cheating was when a FONZ member (Pauly) said, "It kind of surprises me that anyone's even entertaining the fact that he might be trying to cheat." Until then I don't think any post can be taken as a cheating reference.

Yes, I was the first one to clearly state "DQ" and again I've mentioned why privately to who I needed to. Nuln has ruled and this is his contest. Time for everyone to move on and beat each other up in the arena.

Now I hope all the FONZ people and those outside the group who are feeling slighted about 'cheating' will see it was never brought up until that point. For those to go off about that line of thought went there on their own.

_________________The only maxim of a free government ought to be to trust no man living with power to endanger the public liberty. -- John Adams

It's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees. -- Midnight Oil, The Power and the Passion

ElephantGrandmaster Poster

Joined: Apr 16, 2003
Posts: 956
Location: NoCal

Posted:
Thu Feb 28, 2008 4:07 pm

JGW wrote:

Elephant, just to clear this up, I never implied, inferred, or said publicly or privately that FONZ was cheating. The first direct mention of cheating was when a FONZ member (Pauly) said, "It kind of surprises me that anyone's even entertaining the fact that he might be trying to cheat." Until then I don't think any post can be taken as a cheating reference.

I never said you and I said "it was implied". You were definately a factor in all of this nonsense and you're not even involved in this contest.

JGW wrote:

Yes, I was the first one to clearly state "DQ" and again I've mentioned why privately to who I needed to.

If you want to play on words go ahead but here's what Constortium said before you:

The Consortium wrote:

pipthetroll wrote:

Oh, thought this was gonna be topic covering the running of two teams in 60 by one of the TOGs managers, and their points for this turn not counting due to breaking the rules.

TOGS judges, can we get a ruling on this one?

If someone is running another team at the same time, they should not only be penalized, but gone!
(THAT'S OVER-COLLUSION!)

Now he didn't say DQ, but he did say "they should not only be penalized, but gone!" which is pretty much the same thing.

JGW wrote:

Nuln has ruled and this is his contest. Time for everyone to move on and beat each other up in the arena.

I understand who the moderator is and don't need you to tell me that. As far as moving on, that's totally up to the individuals. I'm done listening to a NonTOGS player on any of these matters. Really this is none of your business. But if you want to continue butting in thatís your choice. I guess you werenít really serious about staying out and observing from afar.

JGW wrote:

I guess I understand that thought, but most of those contest are not to the standards of TOGS IMO. I think I'll stay out of it from here and observe from afar. Whatever goes on is between the contest participants and the MC.

You figure out what's implied here.

Soultaker69Advanced Expert Poster

Joined: Oct 02, 2005
Posts: 157
Location: Northeast Florida

Posted:
Thu Feb 28, 2008 6:44 pm

For all of those that care, it seems that until DeathStud has the time to write his response, we will be in the next turn at least. We want to make sure you have the info to do your challenges and avoids.

I personally what to thank the numerous managers that asked me to stay. Yes I understand that it was mostly because everyone has pre-written stories with me and a goat and don't want to re-write.

Craig

_________________Soultaker
Light travels faster than sound. That's why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
Just a player that hasn't quit the game and come back. Maybe that is why I don't have all the answers to the problems in the game.

GreekGuyGrandmaster Poster

Joined: Aug 05, 2002
Posts: 737
Location: Tennessee Yeehaw!!!!

Posted:
Thu Feb 28, 2008 6:54 pm

Everyone needs to just chill. Nuln ruled and we accept it. Travis and Craig are stand up guys. I would never drop out of TOGS and hope others considering it will take awhile to calm down and not overreact. Silly things were said and its over. I'm done replying to this. I just need to rewrite my spot to add some new material for later in the TOGS
TGG