Jonas is not "elite" talent. If he was, what does that make Dwight Howard, DeAndre Jordan, Tyson Chandler or "insert name of any coordinated starting center"? I think he has the potential to be a Joakim Noah with a much prettier jumpshot. Just my opinion though.

Anthony Davis is an "elite" talent.

Lmao did you just call Deandre jordan elite? he's not even close to elite. Jonas is easily going to be better than Deandre and Chandler EASILY!

Pessimism is not the same thing as realism, and being down on a certain player doesn't mean you're down on the whole team. Just keep that in mind.

"Now, if the point is, "he will one day not be one of the worst players in the NBA" then I guess you're right, but I think the point is how he's becoming useful, which he isn't." - From Brandon a few posts up

Realistically, Demar is a good, yet slightly inefficient, scorer for his position. Him being 23 along with his current trend of improvement project an increase in Demar's effectiveness as the years go by.

Optimistically, Demar is great enough to be part of a deep playoff starting rotation, in a few years can reach All-Star status!

Pessimistically, Demar is crap, he will never be good, lets abandon hope.

The way he plays reminds me a bit of Anderson Varejao and that's a very good thing in my opinion.

You guys are under valuing him way too much. Y'all are in for a big surprise. Andrerson Varejao? you must be on some real good shit man. This dude is putting up 8.5 Points, 5.3 Rebounds and 0.6 Blocks in 20 Minutes! Those stats adjusted to 30 mins is 12.7 Points, 8 rebounds, and 1 block. Those are very very good stats, better than Varejao's career stats lmao. He's going to be an elite top 3 C in the league easy.

You guys are under valuing him way too much. Y'all are in for a big surprise. Andrerson Varejao? you must be on some real good shit man. This dude is putting up 8.5 Points, 5.3 Rebounds and 0.6 Blocks in 20 Minutes! Those stats adjusted to 30 mins is 12.7 Points, 8 rebounds, and 1 block. Those are very very good stats, better than Varejao's career stats lmao. He's going to be an elite top 3 C in the league easy.

Varejao is averaging 16 points and nearly 14 boards a game, he's pretty amazing so far this season

in what 10 games? do you actually think he's capable of averaging that all season?

To say his stats aren't impressive because of the small sample size is the same as saying JV's stats aren't impressive because of the sample size. Personally, I don't think he'll keep his stats THAT high. But I'm just saying he is playing great right now, and it's a pretty respectable comparison

To say his stats aren't impressive because of the small sample size is the same as saying JV's stats aren't impressive because of the sample size. Personally, I don't think he'll keep his stats THAT high. But I'm just saying he is playing great right now, and it's a pretty respectable comparison

i guess so but i think Big V will be able to sustain it. Varejao's stats aren't sustainable

I get where he's coming from. For most people, whether a basketball player is 'good' or not is a subjective measure that's valued in highlight reel plays, box score stats and untapped potential. Trying to explain to someone that's a casual fan of the sport that an exciting but flawed player isn't very productive can be frustrating. A lot of people outside of these forums (and even some that frequent them) aren't concerned with things like efficiency, turnover rate and the like because watching the game casually doesn't really allow you to get a good sense of what's happening aside from the 'end result' of each possession.

For all of DeRozan's improvements this year, he's still a very average player AT THIS TIME, and he and Bargs have been effectively sabotaging the Raptors from within for the past 3 years. If you replaced DD with Jason Terry, right away the team would be significantly more dangerous offensively. Two years from now? Probably exactly the opposite. And that's the tough thing about advanced stats: they can give you a very accurate picture of what has happened in the past, but they can no more predict the future than you or I.

What they CAN tell us is that DeRozan is still a high volume, low efficiency player that struggles to bring more to the table than just scoring. It's up to DeRozan to change what the stats tell us.

Well, I'm not what many would call a "casual fan", and bare stats to judge a basketball player and his progress are not my thing. I know what I see.

However, my issue isn't to argue whether or not he has improved and what the stats say about his efficiency this year. I was responding to a "fan's" statement that he enjoys pointing out a piece that disses a player on his team, one that happens to be working his tail off, and despite whatever the naysayers which to extrapolate from stats alone, is showing improvement in virtually every aspect of his game, 3 point shooting excepted. It's the glee over some stat geek saying that a young player on "your team" isn't as good as some believe. Joy in pessimism being confirmed by last year's stats??? I don't get it.

If you get enjoyment from that, I feel sorry for you. If you like the game, there's has to be a better way to enjoy it.

If you get enjoyment from that, I feel sorry for you. If you like the game, there's has to be a better way to enjoy it.

You must be new to the internet.

I'm not going to get drawn into an argument about whether or not DD is a 'good' player. The point is that Brandon doesn't think he is, he has the stats to back it up, and he's expressing his opinion. Whether you call it pessimism or not, he has every right to do so and you might want to consider that although his opinion may be somewhat extreme, it comes from the same place an overly optimistic opinion comes from: passion for the team. He wouldn't be arguing that DD is crap if he didn't care about the team and didn't want them to go in a different direction.

Well, I'm not what many would call a "casual fan", and bare stats to judge a basketball player and his progress are not my thing. I know what I see.

However, my issue isn't to argue whether or not he has improved and what the stats say about his efficiency this year. I was responding to a "fan's" statement that he enjoys pointing out a piece that disses a player on his team, one that happens to be working his tail off, and despite whatever the naysayers which to extrapolate from stats alone, is showing improvement in virtually every aspect of his game, 3 point shooting excepted. It's the glee over some stat geek saying that a young player on "your team" isn't as good as some believe. Joy in pessimism being confirmed by last year's stats??? I don't get it.

If you get enjoyment from that, I feel sorry for you. If you like the game, there's has to be a better way to enjoy it.

'Beauty is truth, truth beauty,—that is all
Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.'

"DeMarís Synergy numbers are similarly sparkling. Right now, heís the 6th most efficient post player in the league, and heís averaging 1.03 PPP. Compare that to Kobe Bryantís 1.04 PPP, on slightly fewer post plays. DeMarís spot up and pick and roll shot making has improved too. Heís the 23rd most efficient spot up scorer, and the 13 most efficient scorer as the ballhandler in pick and rolls. His jump shot appears more confident, and I donít cringe when he takes 3 pointers anymore, at least not when heís open. In the pick and roll DeMar has been able to get to the rim more often, and even though heís still blatantly and mystifyingly disrespected by officials (seriously, I think he may be one of the 10 most disrespected players in the league) heís recording a career high Free Throw Rate, which is a big reason for his increased efficiency from last year."

I'm not going to get drawn into an argument about whether or not DD is a 'good' player. The point is that Brandon doesn't think he is, he has the stats to back it up, and he's expressing his opinion. Whether you call it pessimism or not, he has every right to do so and you might want to consider that although his opinion may be somewhat extreme, it comes from the same place an overly optimistic opinion comes from: passion for the team. He wouldn't be arguing that DD is crap if he didn't care about the team and didn't want them to go in a different direction.

Y'all really don't get it? His "point" that I'm speaking to isn't his opinion of DD. My point wasn't in reference to that at all, but to the expression of "my favourite part", as in some sort of enjoyment out of what.......... some perception of confirmation of one's pessimism? My point is, hey if that's what you enjoy in following this team, my sympathies.

Get it yet? My point isn't about his opinion of DD, but what he's getting enjoyment from, but if that turns you on.....

Y'all really don't get it? His "point" that I'm speaking to isn't his opinion of DD. My point wasn't in reference to that at all, but to the expression of "my favourite part", as in some sort of enjoyment out of what.......... some perception of confirmation of one's pessimism? My point is, hey if that's what you enjoy in following this team, my sympathies.

Get it yet? My point isn't about his opinion of DD, but what he's getting enjoyment from, but if that turns you on.....

Favourite doesn't imply that I derived any pleasure from it. Most of the article is devoted to proving something -- that DeRozan, a scrub, is no Vinsanity, a hoops genius, that I regard as an a priori fact, like a mathematical truth. I would not find an article that defends 2+2=4 particularly interesting because that is also an a priori fact.

The particular passage I quoted was one which was both pithy and free of euphemistic language. That is what I appreciated about it. Also, it's unquestionably true.

'Beauty is truth, truth beauty,—that is all
Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.'

-- John Keats, Ode on a Grecian Urn

Wow, you want the epic eye roll you've got it. It reveals a pretension that often times come with being fixated on a few 'truths' to rationalize a point. You overstate your point in your damnation of Derozan. There's a reason people like Kobe take an off season interest in helping him. It's because he has serious potential and is starting to realize it. I take that as a greater sign of potential than your myopic fixations and poetic ramblings.

Also to call Derozan's contract disastrous just shows how off the rails you are. He's not paid like an elite level talent is he? Is he getting properly compensated for where he is and where the franchise sees him developing this year and the next few? Absolutely. Nobody came out (other than psycho medicated Raptors fans) and said they thought Derozan's contract was an absurd overpayment. I didn't see any anyway.

And please stop calling the front office a regime. See my last comment about ridiculous pretension. If your points are valid you don't have to stretch the meaning of nice sounding words to validate them.

"DeMar’s Synergy numbers are similarly sparkling. Right now, he’s the 6th most efficient post player in the league, and he’s averaging 1.03 PPP. Compare that to Kobe Bryant’s 1.04 PPP, on slightly fewer post plays. DeMar’s spot up and pick and roll shot making has improved too. He’s the 23rd most efficient spot up scorer, and the 13 most efficient scorer as the ballhandler in pick and rolls. His jump shot appears more confident, and I don’t cringe when he takes 3 pointers anymore, at least not when he’s open. In the pick and roll DeMar has been able to get to the rim more often, and even though he’s still blatantly and mystifyingly disrespected by officials (seriously, I think he may be one of the 10 most disrespected players in the league) he’s recording a career high Free Throw Rate, which is a big reason for his increased efficiency from last year."

Alot of that article is relative... which the author doesn't address. Some of the numbers are marginal improvements and others are only improvements from last year, and not his historic numbers.

Demar's eFG% and TS% are up from last year, but still down from his first 2 years in the league. Hist 3pt % is down from last year, but equal to his rookie year. However he is taking more 3pters. His assist% is up from his first two years in the league, but down from last year - although I do want to point out that decrease from last year is marginal, but so is the increase from his 2nd year. His TOV% is by far his lowest to date. His fta/fga is amazingly consistent with his historic fta/fga per game (0.39, 0.37, 0.35, 0.39). His rebounding is up from the previous 2 years - but on par with his rookie year.

So has Demar diversified his offensive game? Yes. He is posting up more, shooting more 3s, shooting less 18-23fters than ever and controlling the ball better.

But has that led to scoring more efficiently? Only compared to last season. Looking at everything as a whole he is pretty much on par with his historic numbers.

Will it lead to more efficient scoring? It should.

I don't doubt that should Demar become consistent with his play he will have by far his best season to date. However, if he remains inconsistent, which he has this short season so far and over his career, he'll end up looking like he always has.

Thats been the real problem with Demar. Consistency.

Example. This year alone Demar has had 2 games with > 5 assists. He's only done that in 1 game before in his career. Sounds very promising right? Except those games are sandwiched between 3 games of 0 assists, and the 3 previous games were 1, 1, 2. Now I'm not expecting Demar to rack up 5 assist a games or nothing, but its an example of the real story of Demar. Will he or can he become consistent?

Unfortunately it sounds amazingly similar to another Raptor we all know too well.....