I'm interested in getting feedback from members about how they would equip a four-man firing team for a "details unspecified" urban combat scenario in a major metropolitan area. Only four men with sidearms and personal weapons. For each member list the following:

my granddad in the 82nd airborne in ww2 liked the thompson for sweeping rooms. ofcourse this is not for for selective killing. i might try to ask him. but he did a lot of killing and saw a lot of dying. he really doesn't like to talk about it much.

fed168

April 29, 2000, 09:49 PM

Sidearm, their choice but it must be the same, 4 mags@
Main weapon, M4 for three members, one with a 12 ga, or all four with M4s and one carries the SG as well, preferably a shortened version. M4s set up for each operator's needs. Eight mags @ weapon, downloaded two rounds, shotgun, twenty rounds OO Buck (including what is in the SG), a mix of slugs and breaching rounds, say about twenty rounds or so.
expandable batons @ person, with OC, knives would be personal choice. All necessary tactical and entry equipment of course. Having only four members does not leave much room for a sniper, but it might be (stretching it a tad) possible for a three man team with a sniper and no spotter (not my choice for an operation), his choice of rifle/optics in .308 and 40 rounds, in addition to the sidearm.
*for study purposes only*

Glamdring

April 30, 2000, 06:09 PM

Urban Combat? You mean in a military sense or LE or other?

For military you really need more people and some tanks or SP artilery for breaching walls.

And grenades and Class 3 weapons for the teams clearing rooms/buildings.

For LE/SWAT short barreled AR's, Flashbang's, and Glock 34/35's two reloads for each gun is plenty for LE/SWAT.

For riot or other stuff again you need more manpower and materials IMO.

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Hart Industries Defense

May 1, 2000, 01:57 AM

I like your test problem. In reply to the two previous responses. The first guy with M4s seemed okay. To the second responder, I have to reply that you never get the perfect solution; the perfect solution for one task may just not be right for another. Also, you do with what you got.

I will answer for the 'legal' warrior who only has legal weaponry as this is what was not covered by the two earlier respondents.

Since most home warriors do not have automatics or post ban guns; we can rule out M4s, uzis, AKs, SKSs, N3s, and any other assault guns that are foreign. I will even forego the M16s.

The problem with urban fighting is that you want to control when you want to shoot through walls or not and also when you want lots of ricochets or not.

The legal limit of rounds is 10 rounds; so you might as well as have two sidearms. There should be a choice of a 38/357 revolver, a 9mm semi, 45acp semi as one of the sidearms. The other sidearm can be one of these or a personal favorite. The amount of ready in magazine ammo should be about 50; but, this should be to each persons fighting style. I know of guys that pack two 9mm with 20 clips of 17 rounds.

It is okay for each person to pack their own two personal favorites as fighting style is more important than interchangeability among team members. As long as one has taken the problem of interchangeability and standardization and addressed it in balance with his own personal fighting style and manner of death; I believe that it is okay not for team members to share ammo. In reality, no one should share ammo; there is no need to go to a dead/injured comrade to take his ammo - this is a bad practice that could get you killed for sure.

A main rifle should be carried by at least two men. The rifle men may option to carry two rifles and just one sidearm (any sidearm per choice as this will not be the main weapon for rifle men carrying two rifles). Only the third and fourth rifleman may carry a shotgun. It is preferable that at least one person is a strict pistollero without a rifle. With two riflemen; the teams can be mixed or you can have the two riflemen together and the two pistolleros together.

For the purist riflemen; they do not have to carry a sidearm. What is important is that they have addressed the scenarios and practiced enough to be confident.

Urban warriors half life is 30 seconds similar to an infantry scout in the patrol mode. In the dug in defensive mode; the urban warriors half life lengthens to 5 minutes similar to a machine gunner in the machine gun nest mode. Half life is called statistics and never your life.

Hart Industries Defense

May 1, 2000, 02:15 AM

Needed to add that in todays modern urban warfare; you need to carry lots of bullets and lay lots of cover fire. Part of urban warfare is making a sociopolitical statement for the TV/radio news cameras and it is really not important who or how many you kill or whether you kill any. Of course a few dead bodies adds to the TV newsmans delight (you cannot see dead bodies on radio); for the radio newsman you need to fire lots of rounds that can be heard. Since the radio cannot see dead bodies; you can get a bunch of your comrades to lay down with ketchup for the radio mans delight.

It is all a big show. Remmember how the big US auto makers paid gunmen in Sarajevo to start killing innocent civilians to cut out the Yugo automobile's low prices.

This was just before the beginning of the war in Yugoslavia if you were following the news. That is why the cheapest autos are 8K and not 4K in the US.

WETSU

May 1, 2000, 10:27 AM

Since you specified LEO or military I will not restrict my selections to 10 round mags, semi auto etc. For LEO I would go with the M-4 carbine, but one would be a MasterKey version, and all would have flattops, some type of ACOG, and a "tac light". Side arms would be in .45, my pref is the full sized HK USP. Mags, for LEO, 6 m-16 30 rounders, downloaded, and 3 LE pistol. For the master key, I would carry OO, OC, and breaching rounds. Gas and flashbang would be issued, and maybe a linear charge for a really tough door. One man would be a trained tactical medic and would carry a blowout kit.

If military, switchout the Master Key for an M203, add more mags for all weapons, and a couple frags each, C-4 for blowing mouse holes, and a Claymoore or two to cover a hasty retreat down an alley. NVG for all.

Glamdring

May 1, 2000, 10:31 AM

4 people against any sort of defensive postion is very poor odds.

For LE work it is not enough to do more than contain a small building.

It is no where near enough for military operations.

If you are talking defending property like in the LA riots or such that is a different question (the team would be on the defense for one).

Or for getting clear of a city.

For room/building combat vs dealing with some single person causing a problem you need grenades or flashbangs or somthing similar [ie BIG firecrackers]. Or improvised grenades.

Also for just four guy's how much gear do you want them to carry? Are they tooling along in cars? For urban combat? Resupply? Duration of mission?

dex

May 1, 2000, 02:22 PM

My opinion would be 1 or 2 sidearms each with a minimum of 100 rounds total, 200 better. A rifle like an SKS is not out of the question, you can still get them everywhere. The rifle ammo should be 50-100. A tactical/combat knife and flashlights for each person. Urban assault gear is a plus like web vests, masks, jackboots :) Rope is good. The idea is to travel light, yet be prepared as much as you can without getting weighted down. The ammo will be the heaviest burden I think. That would be a legal setup. For the lawless merc you would need only modify the trigger group on the SKS for full auto, and that would be one major difference. Just my .02 for fun.

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Spectre

May 1, 2000, 05:20 PM

...but first, one would need a reason to fire auto- as even mercs could have some sense, if they had any training.

Glamdring is on the money- though, WETSU, I once attempted to tell him how useful a Masterkey-type setup would be! He started commenting about weight and such...damn kids... :)

ONE potential setup:
Spartacus carries "heavy", .300 Mag or larger w/ optics.
Spectre carries M1 Carbine and Glock 24, with 6 and 2 spare mags, respectively.
Edmund carries an AR (surprise, surprise), and probably Glock 21.
Glamdring carries Winchester 1300 and Glock.
Well, gosh, boys and girls, there is NO ammo compatability, so I guess this only works in the Marvel Universe!