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We lacked ball movement with Andrea in the game.. The ball would just stop and he would just chuck a three pointer and hoped it would go in. We would've actually won more games in the beginning of the season if we didn't have Andrea to begin with.

I didn't say he wasn't a problem, I'm saying he wasn't the only problem.

Laugh all you want, Bargnani was not the sole reason this team started the season 4-19.

no of course not. he was a big part of our struggles. put it this way - no one is suggesting that we would have been 23-0 instead of 4-19 if he'd played better. but his terrible play might have been the difference between a team that was 4-19 and a team that was meeting the modest expectations people had of it before the season started.

trying to win with Bargnani playing 30+ mins is like trying to drive a car with the parking brake on - possible but much harder than it should be.

Last edited by Jamiecballer; 12-30-2012 at 06:04 PM.

Originally Posted by nycericanguy

well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

no of course not. he was a big part of our struggles. put it this way - no one is suggesting that we would have been 23-0 instead of 4-19 if he'd played better. but his terrible play might have been the difference between a team that was 4-19 and a team that was meeting the modest expectations people had of it before the season started.

trying to win with Bargnani playing 30+ mins is like trying to drive a car with the parking brake on - possible but much harder than it should be.

I have acknowledged multiple times his play to start the year was costly, none can deny this fact.

I find it laughable though, with the keys of the franchise given to Lowry, Jonas acclimating himself to the league & the overall lack of production from the SF position, that he's the lone person to blame for this teams struggle out the gate.

I have acknowledged multiple times his play to start the year was costly, none can deny this fact.

I find it laughable though, with the keys of the franchise given to Lowry, Jonas acclimating himself to the league & the overall lack of production from the SF position, that he's the lone person to blame for this teams struggle out the gate.

He had the highest expectations coming into the season. Supposed to be the missing link to our success from last seaosn. So when we played better when he was out last season naturally people gravitated towards blaming the lackadaisical 7footer for our troubles this season. Especially his struggles being not physical but an inability to adjust to his new teammates and making terrible decisions and playing even worse defence. I don't understand why you partially try to defend Bargnani.

He had the highest expectations coming into the season. Supposed to be the missing link to our success from last seaosn.

Agree, he was a disappointment, doesn't make him the sole reason for losses.

The team/organization/Casey made him 3rd option to Lowry/DeRozan, gave the keys of the franchise & offense to Lowry. Which would suggest the team had higher expectations for Lowry. Who as a starter went 2-14 to start the season. Calderon was 2-5 in that same stretch of games, starting, Bargnani played in both wins.

Originally Posted by gwrighter

So when we played better when he was out last season naturally people gravitated towards blaming the lackadaisical 7footer for our troubles this season. Especially his struggles being not physical but an inability to adjust to his new teammates and making terrible decisions and playing even worse defence.

Played better defensively, maybe because the team had a better W/L record with Bargnani starting last season. (Reason for the high expectations you speak of).

Originally Posted by gwrighter

I don't understand why you partially try to defend Bargnani.

I've admitted to Bargnani's poor play, if he's not the sole reason this team went 4-19, I'm defending reason & my opinion.

I find it laughable though, with the keys of the franchise given to Lowry, Jonas acclimating himself to the league & the overall lack of production from the SF position, that he's the lone person to blame for this teams struggle out the gate.

i haven't seen anybody suggest that, i think you are battling an imaginary foe on this one.

Last edited by Jamiecballer; 12-30-2012 at 07:48 PM.

Originally Posted by nycericanguy

well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

You know the post you originally posted laughter too, saying you didn't want to dignify it with a response.

first off B2B you should know my sense of humor is a little off. i wasn't saying i wouldn't dignify it with a response. i was laughing because you were being sarcastic at the end, saying it was all Bargnani's fault. sarcasm is so unlike you. normally you probe and ask questions, it was like i could actually see you throw up your hands from my computer lol.

there is a huge difference though between imperfections and problems. i don't think anyone is suggesting that there aren't a lot of imperfections on this team.

Last edited by Jamiecballer; 12-30-2012 at 08:23 PM.

Originally Posted by nycericanguy

well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

It's nice that people think that we're all of a sudden a great team without Bargnani, but please realize that these 7 games outta 8 we won are against HORRIBLE teams. And not just horrible teams, horrible teams that are missing their best players in some cases. Their combined record is 75-138 (.352 winning %).

That's the main causation of this little streak we are on, not because Bargs is out of the lineup.

Agree, he was a disappointment, doesn't make him the sole reason for losses.

The team/organization/Casey made him 3rd option to Lowry/DeRozan, gave the keys of the franchise & offense to Lowry. Which would suggest the team had higher expectations for Lowry. Who as a starter went 2-14 to start the season. Calderon was 2-5 in that same stretch of games, starting, Bargnani played in both wins.

Played better defensively, maybe because the team had a better W/L record with Bargnani starting last season. (Reason for the high expectations you speak of).

I've admitted to Bargnani's poor play, if he's not the sole reason this team went 4-19, I'm defending reason & my opinion.

I don't think he was placed as a 3rd option on offence as he's 2nd in FGA per game this season. So he was a primary option if not the first option. Unless he played like a baffoon and took more shots than he was supposed to. In any case he did not meet expectations, whether it's being 3rd option on offence(which he sucked at) or being 1st option(which he still sucked at).

His elevated play early last season partially contributed to the optimisim responsible for his expectations this season. Still, the team played "competitively" without him and competed which added to the idea that Bargnani would compliment that progress when he returned, which he didn't this season and last.

He's not the sole reason, but he heavily contributed to it. Enough to the point where it appears that he is being heavily shopped despite the obvious love Jones BC shares for his number 1 pick.

Everybody is entitled to their opinion but I'm wondering why there is any point. The dude is on the verge of being traded, he has played terribly this season and has been a severe disappointment for this franchise in relation to his entire career thus far. Just seems like a waste of time.

first off B2B you should know my sense of humor is a little off. i wasn't saying i wouldn't dignify it with a response. i was laughing because you were being sarcastic at the end, saying it was all Bargnani's fault. sarcasm is so unlike you. normally you probe and ask questions, it was like i could actually see you throw up your hands from my computer lol.

I don't use sarcasm, mainly because I don't post with any emotion or bias.

What I asked was not sarcasm but a question to the possibilities I had previously listed.

I'm under the impression from Tmath the solution to wins was a simple as removing Bargnani, which I disagree with.

In this current stretch of wins, Calderon's play has been impressive, there was an ease in schedule, Anderson came back & produced at SF, Amir began closing out games over Jonas, Ross has played better, Casey slowed the pace & most importantly, better team unity.

Davis' 25mins subbed in for Bargnani could be considered a contributing factor but far from the only reason this team has turned a corner. Raptors have been out rebounded & outscored in the paint over this stretch, save 1 or 2 games & Kleiza who has taken some of Bargnani's mins and has not played well, outside of one game.

It's nice that people think that we're all of a sudden a great team without Bargnani, but please realize that these 7 games outta 8 we won are against HORRIBLE teams. And not just horrible teams, horrible teams that are missing their best players in some cases. Their combined record is 75-138 (.352 winning %).

That's the main causation of this little streak we are on, not because Bargs is out of the lineup.

we still lost to the Mavs, Bobcats, Pistons, Kings, & Houston with Bargnani in the Lineup.

Blame him for the Sactown loss all you want, but the fact that you are insinuating that we lost to those teams because of Bargs presence on the court is laughable.

Now you're not only hating on him when he's playing badly, but when he's playing well?

What Bargs does on offence is negated by the lack of an impact on the defensive side of the ball. This is the beaten to death "But he scores points!" argument. Doesn't hold any weight anymore as the Raps play better offensively as a team without Bargs, and defensively as well for that matter. Besides score, when he scores, what else does he do? Nothing, and even when he scores, the other team scores more!