Edit: Having taken a look at the inconsistencies of the stories and the changes within them, I've come to the same conclusion that I've already had. George may have been guilty of being a racist, bigot, wanna-be cop reject, fulfilling his fantasies by being a roleplaying vigilante in his spare time, he obviously is a liar, but I come to the same conclusion as before, you can't convict someone for second degree murder for being a trash human being, it takes conclusive, without a shadow of a doubt, evidence. Clearly there is a part of the story that we will never know, but even being 98% sure George initiated the fight with Trayvon , without even GETTING into the stand your ground law, it's not enough for a conviction. It's the way our justice department is structured for the time being, it's not perfect, but it's what we have.

Do I think he should have been convicted for second degree murder? No
Do I think he should have gotten off the hook completely? I don't think that either.

Bottom line, the prosecution failed horribly in creating a case against George Zimmerman, a guilty man walked free. Do I think he is guilty of second degree murder and deserved to spend the rest of his life in prison? No I don't. That doesn't mean I don't think he deserved something..

In a nut shell, that's my honest opinion. I hope I replied to your satisfaction.

Edit: Having taken a look at the inconsistencies of the stories and the changes within them, I've come to the same conclusion that I've already had. George may have been guilty of being a racist, bigot, wanna-be cop reject, fulfilling his fantasies by being a roleplaying vigilante in his spare time, he obviously is a liar, but I come to the same conclusion as before, you can't convict someone for second degree murder for being a trash human being, it takes conclusive, without a shadow of a doubt, evidence. Clearly there is a part of the story that we will never know, but even being 98% sure George initiated the fight with Trayvon , without even GETTING into the stand your ground law, it's not enough for a conviction. It's the way our justice department is structured for the time being, it's not perfect, but it's what we have.

Do I think he should have been convicted for second degree murder? No
Do I think he should have gotten off the hook completely? I don't think that either.

Bottom line, the prosecution failed horribly in creating a case against George Zimmerman, a guilty man walked free. Do I think he is guilty of second degree murder and deserved to spend the rest of his life in prison? No I don't. That doesn't mean I don't think he deserved something..

In a nut shell, that's my honest opinion. I hope I replied to your satisfaction.

nice reply; thank you for that.

we're not so far apart, i think. to me it was only ever manslaughter, not 2nd degree murder. the area where i would disagree with you is in bold.

just due to the properties of reality, you can rarely know anything for sure, if ever. IMO best you can really do is to verify or falsify, although they are not mutually exclusive either. that may not be the way the FL justice system works, and i get that, and angela corey may be a sorry excuse for a prosecutor, and i get that, too... but such things are an aside from the simple reality of this:

it very much appears to me that george zimmerman was the primary reason for that boy's death.

no george zimmerman driving along that day, no reason to doubt trayvon martin makes it home safely from his candy run.

Intersting. Hard to instigate a fight from inside your car. Perhaps if he would have listened to the operator he wouldn't have ruined two people's lives. Although, go ahead, keep being a ****ing moron. It's cool to go against the grain on the internet.

Absolutely agree he should have stayed in the car, I clearly said I was against vigilantism. Still thats not a crime. And I agree that racial profiling is wrong, and would even be open to legislation against it. But you cant pass a law and retroactively enforce it.

I am not sure why you are being so hostile when people try to express an opinion different than yours in a respectful manner.

I am not really going against the grain... You realize at court the jury found zim not guilty of murder which means they judged the shooting as self defense right?

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Originally Posted by Pointguard

Do you believe the trainer or do you believe that Trayvon had a habit of fighting? Its hard to believe in both.

I dont see how Zim being a bad fighter and trayvon having a habit of fighting as being contradictory. I believe both and dont see how they contradict.

An article from cnn detailing about trayvon's texts. Unless you challenge CNN's reporting as biased. I have already posted a link to an article discussing Zim's MMA trainer's testimony. I dont think someone would lie for a client at a murder trial under oath.

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Zimmerman had like only two confirmed received blows as by the evidence presented.

Please provide a source for this. I dont think at all its clear how many times zim was hit, but I think its clear that trayvon did not get hit once by a melee blow.

A teenager who would be totally wild with a stranger fighting him because he had it out for him for no reason (and whom he might believe trying to kill him or rape him). And you believe this teenager was a very experienced fighter.

I am not saying for sure he was a great fighter, but I think its clear he was more physically capable than Zimmerman. Trayvon had gotten suspend from school for fighting in the past and he had various text message bragging about his fighting skill. Even if you dismiss that the physical evidence of zim's broken nose, black eyes and cuts to the back of his head give an indication that trayvon was clearly the better fighter of the 2. I know legal trayvon was not an adult, but physically the 17 year old trayvon was more physically capable than the fat short zimmerman.

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Zimmerman had enough confidence to go behind his back and get the gun and perhaps receive only his two blows of the fight.

I remember that zim had his gun around his hip/waist. And further where are you getting that he was only struck twice?

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Very few non trained people can hold a teenager down for a minute and receive only two blows and then after a minute of holding him down be confident enough to put one hand behind his back. A weak person has no chance.

Yeah I am not sure if your are trolling now... First of all even the prosecution concedes that trayvon was on top of zimmerman. Secondly there are cuts to the back of zimmerman's head. Zim never held trayvon down... At least there is no evidence indicating that.

You will blindly believe both because it fits what you want to believe. But it makes no sense. Very few people can be in a street fight with a teenager for a minute, much less in a compromised position. Which side of the story do you believe?

Actually during the initial reporting of the story I thought Zim killed a 12 year old boy stalking him down a shooting him in the back while he ran. I thought zim should have gotten the death penalty.

Facts that I learned during the trial changed my opinion that it was murder and instead I believe now zim racially profiled trayvon, and antagonized him, but he shot trayvon to stop trayvon from forcing his head into the ground, which trayvon was doing while mounted on top of zimmerman after he knocked him down. Also zim got his nose broken and had black eyes at the end.

Basically I reached the same conclusion as the jury

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The physical evidence, definitely says Zimmerman was very strong and at the least had control enough to put one hand behind his back a minute into a fight.

An article from cnn detailing about trayvon's texts. Unless you challenge CNN's reporting as biased. I have already posted a link to an article discussing Zim's MMA trainer's testimony. I dont think someone would lie for a client at a murder trial under oath.

You didn't read what I wrote: Once again... If I am fighting a young teen (and you believe TM is hostile and a very experienced fighter) for a minute, screaming, and in an underneath position for a good portion of that fight and all I got was a busted nose out of the deal and evidence of tussling and was able to go behind his back to get a gun from the bottom position after all of that... you can't be weak. If you have every been in a street fight, 20 seconds is a long time, especially if a teen has fear for his life or safety and the other knowing there is a deadly weapon involved.

If you never been in a street fight just say it. Fighting a streetfight in close quarters, for a half of minute, with fear involved on both sides is more energy draining than 3 intense full court games of Bball. But this fight was a full minute. They said Trayvon's ring show evidence of only one blow at the trial. Now there could have been an elbow and some ground wrestling but show me evidence of of more than one blow. A minute fight with FEAR is wild energy. And you are convinced that TM is experienced, hyped and in a foul disposition. Evidence showed that TM might have only have landed a left handed blow which is uncommon for a right handed guy - which could easily suggest that, that blow came when TM put one hand behind his back to get his gun.

Your source confirms that it may have been a one punch scenario as well but it says that Zim's personal doctor says he had two black eyes and a broken nose.

If you ever been in a street fight, 15 minutes to an hour later you see everything - especially swelling. At 27 years old, black eyes do not go away the next day for detective interviews. The guy had no swelling at all, which is one of the most amazing things that whole night.

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I am not saying for sure he was a great fighter, but I think its clear he was more physically capable than Zimmerman. Trayvon had gotten suspend from school for fighting in the past and he had various text message bragging about his fighting skill. Even if you dismiss that the physical evidence of zim's broken nose, black eyes and cuts to the back of his head give an indication that trayvon was clearly the better fighter of the 2. I know legal trayvon was not an adult, but physically the 17 year old trayvon was more physically capable than the fat short zimmerman.

Anybody that has a street fight for a minute with a young teen in fear, in close quarters, and supposedly in a compromised position, and feels he can put one hand behind his back after that minute is not the weakest man around. But you have slyly presented claims that TM wasn't just a regular teen, he was mean, experienced and having a bad day. But this weakling can handle him for a minute and then put one hand behind his back. You really believe that?

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Yeah I am not sure if your are trolling now... First of all even the prosecution concedes that trayvon was on top of zimmerman. Secondly there are cuts to the back of zimmerman's head. Zim never held trayvon down... At least there is no evidence indicating that.

The prosecution was pretty much garbage. the linear slice cuts on Zim's head were not likely directly caused by TM. Could you explain that if you do believe that? But to your point, if you believe Zimmerman was on the bottom the whole time and the weakest guy around (you quoted the MMA guy as saying this but I didn't see it), then how does he not get any swelling in a minute fight? How does Trayvon only have evidence of throwing one blow? You have to be really strong to command a fight from below or manage to come out with evidence of only one blow from TM.

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Actually during the initial reporting of the story I thought Zim killed a 12 year old boy stalking him down a shooting him in the back while he ran. I thought zim should have gotten the death penalty.

Facts that I learned during the trial changed my opinion that it was murder and instead I believe now zim racially profiled trayvon, and antagonized him, but he shot trayvon to stop trayvon from forcing his head into the ground, which trayvon was doing while mounted on top of zimmerman after he knocked him down. Also zim got his nose broken and had black eyes at the end.

You believe GZ has an anti swelling head as well? That he can have his head slammed into concrete and it not swell up? Do you believe he's some new human on the evolutionary chain that recuperates like Wolverine but surely can't fight like Wolverine?

You believe GZ has an anti swelling head as well? That he can have his head slammed into concrete and it not swell up? Do you believe he's some new human on the evolutionary chain that recuperates like Wolverine but surely can't fight like Wolverine?

video quality wasn't great... seemed like i might have seen some purpling under his eyes. are there better pics / video for that?

one thing about the concrete-- if his body really was on the grass while his head was against the the edge of the concrete, it could explain the cuts on the back of his head and why there's no swelling.

other than that, zimmerman in that video... i don't know... when i'm not suspending my disbelief, he sure seems to be spinning a web of lies, obfuscation and misinformation...

- he has TM running on the 911 call, just walking steadily in the walk through.

- he has himself acting completely non-confrontationally in the walk through with TM basically going psycho on him, while his GF overheard ZIMS shouting "what are you doing around here!"

- he has TM raining blows and slamming his head on the sidewalk until he felt it was about to explode, when the evidence does not support that at all.

- IIRC from other evidence, the car parking explanation he gave was determined to be false.

You didn't read what I wrote: Once again... If I am fighting a young teen (and you believe TM is hostile and a very experienced fighter) for a minute, screaming, and in an underneath position for a good portion of that fight and all I got was a busted nose out of the deal and evidence of tussling and was able to go behind his back to get a gun from the bottom position after all of that... you can't be weak. If you have every been in a street fight, 20 seconds is a long time, especially if a teen has fear for his life or safety and the other knowing there is a deadly weapon involved.

I have never said I thought he was an experienced fighter, I have said he had a history of fighting. I dont know how good of a fighter trayvon was. I think its clear that he was a better fighter than Zim. You are honestly the first and only person I have ever met that says Zim had control of the fight. Look I am sorry but a lot of stuff came up at trial that showed trayvon in a negative light and made it seem realistic that he would react violently when verbally confronted.

None of that justifies what happened to trayvon, but I think you are being ridiculous claiming that Zimmerman had a physical advantage over trayvon. And to be clear I against vigilantism. IMO zim had no business looking for the burglars responsible for the recent break ins and he racially profiled trayvon.

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able to go behind his back to get a gun from the bottom position after all of that

where are you getting that he got a gun from the back of his body? He got the gun from his waist, on his hip.

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If you never been in a street fight just say it.

Nope, and proud of it. I am a nice guy and I hang out with adults. What kind of adult looks up to street fighters? Are you trying to impress people online with your fighting abilities? Are you 12?

Personally I think dumbasses that are violent and get into fights consistently are stupid. I look up to people who have an education and get employable skills, and get good careers, not dumb asses that walk around being alpha.

Also already said it in another thread here that my "fighting" history is limited to 3 quasi-fights in my whole life. 2 was in elementary school that were my fault and I feel really guilty about nowadays. I went to a private school and this group I was in started picking on a new kid because he was poorer, anyways even then I thought it was wrong, but I was afraid I would be ostracized by the group and I forget the details but ended up "fighting" the other kid. Honestly we just punched each other in the arm for a bit and pushing and shoving.

2nd one was a little older and the same scenario but this time people called the kid gay. Due to peer pressure and fear that I would become the target I joined in the bullying, but even then I knew it was wrong. Looking back I would apologize to both these guys if I could and if I remembered their last names.

3rd guy was a douchebag but we just kind of grappled standing up and pushed and shoveled. It probably looked more gay than anything else.

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Your source confirms that it may have been a one punch scenario as well but it says that Zim's personal doctor says he had two black eyes and a broken nose.

That evidence was presented at trial. Are you telling me you think the prosecution would not have challenged faulty evidence? Also in a murder investigation people dont lie under oath for a guy they barely know. I might lie for my mom, my dad, and my siblings. No way I lie for one of my clients.

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Anybody that has a street fight for a minute with a young teen in fear, in close quarters, and supposedly in a compromised position, and feels he can put one hand behind his back after that minute is not the weakest man around. But you have slyly presented claims that TM wasn't just a regular teen, he was mean, experienced and having a bad day. But this weakling can handle him for a minute and then put one hand behind his back. You really believe that?

I dont think trayvon was afraid of zim. Trayvon was taller, stronger and zim is a short fat dude. I am not saying trayvon was a great professional fighter. I am saying he was better than zim. Probably what happened was they were on the ground and zim tried to hold trayvon's arms to stop the beating, which limited the damage, but zim couldnt get trayvon off of him and zim cowardly reacted by shooting him.

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The prosecution was pretty much garbage. the linear slice cuts on Zim's head were not likely directly caused by TM. Could you explain that if you do believe that?

I think it happened as trayvon was attempting to force zim's head into the ground. As he was doing this, I am guess zim attempted to resist, Eg. trying to hold his head up and using his arms to try to push trayvon's arms and hands off his head. Trayvon probably didn't succeed every single time he tried to force zim's head into the ground. Probably his head scraped the ground a couple of times. This proves to me that trayvon was on top.

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But you have slyly presented claims that TM wasn't just a regular teen, he was mean, experienced and having a bad day.

I have never said that... All I said was clearly trayvon was in control of the fight. Maybe that's a testament to him being an above average fighter, maybe that's a testament to zim being extremely weak, maybe its a combination of that, I don't know. I do know that throughout the whole thing zim never managed to hit trayvon once with a melee maneuver and by the end zim had a broken nose, 2 black eyes and cuts to the back of his head.

Zim's mma instructor testified as him being extremely physically weak and having poor fighting skills. I don't think it is reasonable to expect an mma instructor to lie, under oath, at a murder trial from a client of theirs. Once again there are people I would lie for under oath to protect at a murder trial, a client of mine is not one of them.

Look you and I interpret the evidence differently, this isnt productive for either of us, we just have to agree to disagree. I claim to the same conclusion as the jury, while you have this idea that zim was in control of the fighting and on top of trayvon.

Edit: we are all wasting time anyways. Zim will likely be killed soon. Despite what the court found, many people still think he killed trayvon in cold blood. Dude signed his death warrant that night.

As opposed to walking into glass where it is sometimes dubious and the brain actually angles off the blow and small dark marks are left below the eye. If Zim was able to obtain two soft black eyes without swelling anywhere it would have been another marvel of the night.

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one thing about the concrete-- if his body really was on the grass while his head was against the the edge of the concrete, it could explain the cuts on the back of his head and why there's no swelling.

You can bang your head on the door in your house which has a hard 90degree angle and it won't leave a slice cut like the slice cuts that Zim had: http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopo..._635/image.jpg
Which seems like he might have hit his head on a sprinkler or garden tool. But any violent hit to the head will cause bruising or swelling. Hard hits on concrete, no matter what the angle, will never just leave cuts. The edge of the concrete would actually be more likely to cause swelling. The skull needs swelling to protect the brain in humans. Now Zimmermans might be different.

As opposed to walking into glass where it is sometimes dubious and the brain actually angles off the blow and small dark marks are left below the eye. If Zim was able to obtain two soft black eyes without swelling anywhere it would have been another marvel of the night.

you're generalising. logically there should be a whole range of black eyes, from almost nothing to a world of purple-black. different blows in different situations are going to produce different results.

OTOH, TM's hands showed damage from only ONE blow, correct? unless i missed something, only one of the three blows to zimmerman's face is explained by a TM action.

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You can bang your head on the door in your house which has a hard 90degree angle and it won't leave a slice cut like the slice cuts that Zim had: http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopo..._635/image.jpg
Which seems like he might have hit his head on a sprinkler or garden tool. But any violent hit to the head will cause bruising or swelling. Hard hits on concrete, no matter what the angle, will never just leave cuts. The edge of the concrete would actually be more likely to cause swelling. The skull needs swelling to protect the brain in humans. Now Zimmermans might be different.

you're missing my point: if his head was resting on that edge of concrete that we saw in the video, and it was jerked to the side (like during a struggle), that could be a reason for a long cut like that without bruising. sometimes those edges are pretty sharp, in fact.

I have never said I thought he was an experienced fighter, I have said he had a history of fighting. I dont know how good of a fighter trayvon was.

Its the same thing. Experienced means he has a history of it.

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I think its clear that he was a better fighter than Zim. You are honestly the first and only person I have ever met that says Zim had control of the fight. Look I am sorry but a lot of stuff came up at trial that showed trayvon in a negative light and made it seem realistic that he would react violently when verbally confronted.

This is irrelevant to the discussion. But while we are here Zimmerman was a violent guy to girlfriends, police, house guest of his mother and during work sometimes without verbal confrontation. Which is worse?

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None of that justifies what happened to trayvon, but I think you are being ridiculous claiming that Zimmerman had a physical advantage over trayvon. And to be clear I against vigilantism. IMO zim had no business looking for the burglars responsible for the recent break ins and he racially profiled trayvon.

No, I never said that, and you know I never said that, but he wasn't weak like you claim.

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where are you getting that he got a gun from the back of his body? He got the gun from his waist, on his hip.

At the very least he couldn't get it without exposing his face, right? Which would definitely lead to a blow.

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Nope, and proud of it. I am a nice guy and I hang out with adults. What kind of adult looks up to street fighters? Are you trying to impress people online with your fighting abilities? Are you 12?

Not at all. Why are you jumping to complete nonsense? Did I once talk of my fighting prowess??? If you have no idea what it is like to be in a life and death situation then I can't make you imagine it. If you never been in a fight then its going to be hard to imagine what it is like to be in one. You can't call somebody weak who has been in that situation for a minute. You did it.

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Personally I think dumbasses that are violent and get into fights consistently are stupid. I look up to people who have an education and get employable skills, and get good careers, not dumb asses that walk around being alpha.

Great don't ever get into a fight it if you can. I mentor at risk youth, I break up fights. I convert fighters into builders, family men and constructive men of society. Most meaningful things in your life will be built upon you understanding things for yourself. An Alpha has dominion over the concepts in his orbit first and then executes them at a supreme level. You and your friends can toss that thought around. It will register with some and not with others. Some are gullible and will take things the wrong way... .

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3rd guy was a douchebag but we just kind of grappled standing up and pushed and shoveled. It probably looked more gay than anything else.

Thank goodness they weren't violent. But its more important to get the lessons from them.

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That evidence was presented at trial. Are you telling me you think the prosecution would not have challenged faulty evidence? Also in a murder investigation people dont lie under oath for a guy they barely know. I might lie for my mom, my dad, and my siblings. No way I lie for one of my clients.

Zim lied like crazy and the prosecution didn't even present him as a liar. They didn't talk about his many many inconsistencies.

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I think it happened as trayvon was attempting to force zim's head into the ground. As he was doing this, I am guess zim attempted to resist, Eg. trying to hold his head up and using his arms to try to push trayvon's arms and hands off his head. Trayvon probably didn't succeed every single time he tried to force zim's head into the ground. Probably his head scraped the ground a couple of times. This proves to me that trayvon was on top.

My only suggestion is that Zim had some control to limit damages in a minute long fight.

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I have never said that... All I said was clearly trayvon was in control of the fight. Maybe that's a testament to him being an above average fighter, maybe that's a testament to zim being extremely weak, maybe its a combination of that, I don't know. I do know that throughout the whole thing zim never managed to hit trayvon once with a melee maneuver and by the end zim had a broken nose, 2 black eyes and cuts to the back of his head.

Why are you face palming. You don't read the articles you put out there. They are clearly suggesting that. And they all support the same idea. You don't read what you put out there. Zimmerman is bigger guy with a deadly weapon on him, he doesn't want it to be a striking match and he was extremely successful at it not being much of one. Him not striking Trayvon doesn't mean he wasn't in control. He wants it to be a wrestling match which is what the evidence suggest. Striking is very risky business if you got a gun on you.

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Zim's mma instructor testified as him being extremely physically weak and having poor fighting skills. I don't think it is reasonable to expect an mma instructor to lie, under oath, at a murder trial from a client of theirs. Once again there are people I would lie for under oath to protect at a murder trial, a client of mine is not one of them.

He uses Zimmerman's name as advertisement! What better advertisement than having a weakling handle a black teen in the dark. At that stage of the game the instructor had seen how inept the prosecution was and definitely was convinced that they weren't going to interview the other weaklings at his facility. The inept prosecution didn't even bring up the establishments vested interest in Zimmerman.

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Edit: we are all wasting time anyways. Zim will likely be killed soon. Despite what the court found, many people still think he killed trayvon in cold blood. Dude signed his death warrant that night.

I think the guy has a death wish myself but ain't my job to wish it on anybody.