Comments on: No common ground to be found for Pirates and Mark Appelhttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/07/09/no-common-ground-to-be-found-for-pirates-and-mark-appel/
Baseball. Baseball. And then a bit more baseball.Sun, 02 Aug 2015 22:35:23 +0000hourly1http://wordpress.com/By: jrbdmbhttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/07/09/no-common-ground-to-be-found-for-pirates-and-mark-appel/comment-page-1/#comment-327466
Tue, 10 Jul 2012 17:59:41 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=178842#comment-327466If he already turned down #1 slot money this year, why would he and Boras be willing to sign for #1 slot money next year?

Only (slightly reasonable) possibility is that Boras will use Appel to challenge the whole slotting system.

]]>By: stex52http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/07/09/no-common-ground-to-be-found-for-pirates-and-mark-appel/comment-page-1/#comment-327457
Tue, 10 Jul 2012 17:52:06 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=178842#comment-327457My gosh, what a terrible idea. “Spirit of the draft”? What are we talking about? Spirit of indentured servitude.

A fair world would have no draft. It might well not work in professional sports because the rich teams would dominate, but don’t punish people for wanting the freedom to negotiate.

]]>By: stex52http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/07/09/no-common-ground-to-be-found-for-pirates-and-mark-appel/comment-page-1/#comment-327446
Tue, 10 Jul 2012 17:44:55 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=178842#comment-327446We had this discussion when I was at Rice in the early ’70’s and a guy we knew went pro in tennis. There is just too much money to be made to turn it down. If you are a student at a quality private school (like Stanford or Rice) you can always go back. If you are wealthy and want the degree, what’s the problem? Just start over and take the four years if you have to. You were smart enough to make the grades the first time.

If you don’t want the degree that is fine, too. Odd are that most players won’t. But if you have a job and have made a lot of money or are in business, the degree thing is a personal goal, not a necessity.

]]>By: istillbelieveinbluehttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/07/09/no-common-ground-to-be-found-for-pirates-and-mark-appel/comment-page-1/#comment-327316
Tue, 10 Jul 2012 16:17:12 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=178842#comment-327316He’s a pitcher, so the injury risk is higher than, say, a right fielder. He and Boras really botched this whole situation. Had he been willing to accept the slot value, he’d be getting over $7 million as the first pick and we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
]]>By: Kevin S.http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/07/09/no-common-ground-to-be-found-for-pirates-and-mark-appel/comment-page-1/#comment-327283
Tue, 10 Jul 2012 15:40:54 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=178842#comment-327283Oi. So much wrong with this.

Why should amateur players abide by the “spirit of the draft?” The entire thing was set up by two parties (current players and owners) specifically to siphon money away from them and transfer it to those two groups. Players holding out for more money amounts to somebody firing a BB gun over the Rio Grande and your response would be the equivalent of the US nuking Ciudad de Juarez.

They could have put an end to “this nonsense” by leaving the system as it was, in which smart small-market teams were the biggest spenders on amateur talent because it pays off in spades. Instead, they set up a system where teams pass on better talent not because they’re too stupid to pay the bonuses, but because MLB actively enforces penalties for doing so.

Go Mark Appel. Go Pirates. Screw Bud Selig and his cronies for allowing this to happen.

]]>By: Kevin S.http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/07/09/no-common-ground-to-be-found-for-pirates-and-mark-appel/comment-page-1/#comment-327271
Tue, 10 Jul 2012 15:31:54 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=178842#comment-327271You seriously think he fell to the Pirates because the first seven teams didn’t think he was as good? He fell because of his bonus, the exact thing this new system was supposed to stop. As for next year, his lack of leverage will work for him, not against him, going where he would have gone talent-wise – a team drafting #1 overall knows that he really can’t hold out for more than slot. If he gets slot as the #1 overall pick next year, that’s $7.2 million – $3.4 million more than he’d get now.
]]>By: natsladyhttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/07/09/no-common-ground-to-be-found-for-pirates-and-mark-appel/comment-page-1/#comment-327072
Tue, 10 Jul 2012 11:48:18 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=178842#comment-327072Giolito is 4 years away and might need surgery. If he doesn’t sign, we will get #17 pick and can take a college player, and still have a guy in the majors in a year or two (assuming there is a good guy available at #17). So, it’s not so much that the draft looks stronger, it’s that #17 will be better than #32 (you like how I did that?).
]]>By: paperlionshttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/07/09/no-common-ground-to-be-found-for-pirates-and-mark-appel/comment-page-1/#comment-327067
Tue, 10 Jul 2012 11:34:49 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=178842#comment-327067Man, people really aren’t a fan of reality, if your team fails to sign its #1 pick, it is never a good thing for the team, and it usually isn’t a bad thing for the player.
]]>By: paperlionshttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/07/09/no-common-ground-to-be-found-for-pirates-and-mark-appel/comment-page-1/#comment-327066
Tue, 10 Jul 2012 11:32:07 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=178842#comment-327066The point is that the only alternative isn’t $0, he isn’t going double or nothing. Obviously there is risk, but far less risk that HS players that don’t sign, enroll in D1 programs, and have to wait 3 years to be eligible…..and no one is ripping on those guys. There are at least as many examples of guys going to school or staying in school and doing better in future drafts as guys that do worse.
]]>By: paperlionshttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/07/09/no-common-ground-to-be-found-for-pirates-and-mark-appel/comment-page-1/#comment-327063
Tue, 10 Jul 2012 11:29:02 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=178842#comment-327063Yes, and Granderson is the rare exception. This year 39 players in the league (4.3%) have a college degree. People can always do things, but life gets busy and they rarely have time to do them later. Even for players that don’t make the majors, their career often lasts many years and by then they have wives, kids, and responsibilities.
]]>By: Reflexhttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/07/09/no-common-ground-to-be-found-for-pirates-and-mark-appel/comment-page-1/#comment-327015
Tue, 10 Jul 2012 04:13:25 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=178842#comment-327015Yeah, and your employer should be able to sign you to a contract for whatever they want and if you refuse, you are unemployed for three years, cause this is america and thats how we do it!
]]>By: explodethttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/07/09/no-common-ground-to-be-found-for-pirates-and-mark-appel/comment-page-1/#comment-327009
Tue, 10 Jul 2012 04:02:26 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=178842#comment-327009…Why would he be #1 next year, exactly? He wasn’t the best player in a weak draft in the opinion of 7 teams, he’ll have less leverage as college senior, and he’ll be THAT MUCH older still. Realistically, he has nowhere to go in the draft but down.
]]>By: brewcrewfan54http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/07/09/no-common-ground-to-be-found-for-pirates-and-mark-appel/comment-page-1/#comment-327006
Tue, 10 Jul 2012 03:43:35 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=178842#comment-327006And $1 million still isn’t $3 million.
]]>By: churchoftheperpetuallyoutragedhttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/07/09/no-common-ground-to-be-found-for-pirates-and-mark-appel/comment-page-1/#comment-327001
Tue, 10 Jul 2012 03:29:06 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=178842#comment-327001

They need to change the rules so that players who refuse to sign are banned from professional baseball for at least 3 seasons if they refuse to sign with the team who drafted them.

Sure, as long as the AAV of the contracts are equal to or above the starting salary of a MLB first year player (~450k now). Or do the indentured servants, I mean players, not get a choice in this matter?

]]>By: paperlionshttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/07/09/no-common-ground-to-be-found-for-pirates-and-mark-appel/comment-page-1/#comment-326979
Tue, 10 Jul 2012 02:09:33 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=178842#comment-326979Yes, but….all things being equal, approximately the same number of guys “come out of no where” each year to be prospects, whereas some years the number of guys that are legitimate prospects a year before the draft is far greater than other years….for next year’s draft, there just aren’t that many guys that scouts really like….so, yes, next years draft could look fantastic in 8 months, but odds are that it won’t.
]]>By: stan97http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/07/09/no-common-ground-to-be-found-for-pirates-and-mark-appel/comment-page-1/#comment-326977
Tue, 10 Jul 2012 02:06:55 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=178842#comment-326977Players and their agents shouldn’t be able to ‘game’ the system like they currently do.

The whole idea of the draft is that the weaker teams can improve by selecting higher in the draft.

When a player refuses to sign or sits out a year in order to to reenter the draft it violates the spirit of the draft and what it’s intended to accomplish.

They need to change the rules so that players who refuse to sign are banned from professional baseball for at least 3 seasons if they refuse to sign with the team who drafted them.

That would put an end to much of this nonsense.

]]>By: proudlycanadianhttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/07/09/no-common-ground-to-be-found-for-pirates-and-mark-appel/comment-page-1/#comment-326974
Tue, 10 Jul 2012 01:54:15 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=178842#comment-326974It is a way too early to tell if next year will be better or worse. Teenagers and young adults. do mature a different rates. Obviously, players will become more physically and mature in a year.
]]>By: mgdsquiggy17http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/07/09/no-common-ground-to-be-found-for-pirates-and-mark-appel/comment-page-1/#comment-326973
Tue, 10 Jul 2012 01:47:56 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=178842#comment-326973Or….

The Detroit Tigers selected Granderson in the third round of the 2002 amateur draft, after his junior year at the University of Illinois at Chicago. As the son of teachers, Granderson felt a familial obligation and personal desire to graduate. So, while playing for Class A Lakeland in 2003, he asked the Tigers if they would accommodate his desire to fulfill his degree requirements. The organization agreed, even though his obligations to baseball didn’t cease.

So Appel could easily still get his money and still get the college degree if it really is that important.

]]>By: paperlionshttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/07/09/no-common-ground-to-be-found-for-pirates-and-mark-appel/comment-page-1/#comment-326968
Tue, 10 Jul 2012 01:26:38 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=178842#comment-326968No one says that except, apparently, for fans of Pittsburgh and Baltimore….and perhaps Washington.
]]>By: paperlionshttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/07/09/no-common-ground-to-be-found-for-pirates-and-mark-appel/comment-page-1/#comment-326966
Tue, 10 Jul 2012 01:22:01 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=178842#comment-326966True, but it Appel had TJ surgery tomorrow and had a normal recovery, he could still sign for $1M+ next year.
]]>By: paperlionshttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/07/09/no-common-ground-to-be-found-for-pirates-and-mark-appel/comment-page-1/#comment-326965
Tue, 10 Jul 2012 01:20:48 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=178842#comment-326965Actually, you can’t go back any time. If he waits too long, he’ll pretty much have to start all over (college credits are not eternal, courses have to be completed within a reasonable time span), which no adult would do. That is one reason so few MLB player have college degrees.
]]>By: paperlionshttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/07/09/no-common-ground-to-be-found-for-pirates-and-mark-appel/comment-page-1/#comment-326964
Tue, 10 Jul 2012 01:17:31 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=178842#comment-326964oh yeah, it is definitely losing. Not only will a player of Appel’s talent not be available at #9 next year, but they’ll also lose a year of development time…..and if they sign Appel and lose next year’s 1st….that is kind of a loss as well, using 2 picks for one guy when you are always going to have to build through the draft hurts, and with the new cap rules, it’ll hurt teams like the Pirates more.

Looks like a no-win situation for the Pirates,

]]>By: Kevin S.http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/07/09/no-common-ground-to-be-found-for-pirates-and-mark-appel/comment-page-1/#comment-326953
Tue, 10 Jul 2012 00:37:27 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=178842#comment-326953And if the following link is to be believed, it would be #10 in next year’s draft:

]]>By: Kevin S.http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/07/09/no-common-ground-to-be-found-for-pirates-and-mark-appel/comment-page-1/#comment-326952
Tue, 10 Jul 2012 00:35:30 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=178842#comment-326952Actually, it kind of is a losing situation for the Pirates. They’ll have the #9 pick (or #10 if the Orioles’ pick doesn’t sign, either) and their own pick… which looks like it’ll be in the 20s. Appel is likely to be the #1 pick next year, given that it’s an even weaker draft class than this year’s. Not that you can trade picks in MLB, but would you trade the #9/10 pick and a pick in the 20s for the #1 pick, especially if you’d have the #1 pick developing in your system a year earlier? I would. I’m guessing Pittsburgh feels a lot of pressure from the commissioner’s office not to cave, but I think it’s worth seeing at the last minute what he’s willing to come down to. Appel might find it worth going back to school for a shot to double what he’d get from Pitt… but what if the difference is $2 million instead of $3-4 million? At some point, the risk won’t be worth it.
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Tue, 10 Jul 2012 00:26:56 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=178842#comment-326948I don’t care. I’m still a millionaire.

-Scott Boras

]]>By: schlomhttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/07/09/no-common-ground-to-be-found-for-pirates-and-mark-appel/comment-page-1/#comment-326942
Tue, 10 Jul 2012 00:14:23 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=178842#comment-326942True enough but I’m not sure how you could properly value all that. Or the particular circumstances for each player – Hochevar might be better off with the Dodgers but as a better team he’d have more competition and might not have been a starter. Same thing with Paxson, being a pitcher in Seattle might be worth sitting out a year.
]]>By: churchoftheperpetuallyoutragedhttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/07/09/no-common-ground-to-be-found-for-pirates-and-mark-appel/comment-page-1/#comment-326941
Tue, 10 Jul 2012 00:12:10 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=178842#comment-326941

They aren’t supposed to, but it happens all the time. In fact both KG and Klaw mentioned this year it probably happened far more than usual so teams could game the system.

However, the Paxton issue had to do with the NCAA’s gestapo like tactics of suspending players for violating their bylaws, in doing something that any one of us would do. Each year the NCAA sends out a survey to all players, high school and college, asking questions like, did you hire an attorney to speak on your behalf with a team? Did you hire an agent?

If players say they did either of those things, the NCAA has and will restrict their eligibility to play in college*. If you refuse to answer the survey, they have and will restrict your eligibility to play in college. Paxton fell into the latter category, and Kentucky, rather than risk getting their season tossed out, removed Paxton from the team.

*Can you imagine being a 17 year old HS senior and being drafted in the bottom of the first round, and being unable to have anyone advise you on the process? The NCAA is a f’ing sham.

]]>By: proudlycanadianhttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/07/09/no-common-ground-to-be-found-for-pirates-and-mark-appel/comment-page-1/#comment-326933
Tue, 10 Jul 2012 00:01:17 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=178842#comment-326933He has been terrible. Would he have had been a better pitcher with better pro coaching than he received in the Independent league?
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