For the most part it was reserved for the higher ups and it's knowledge was hidden from the masses (like a lot of spiritual sciences). Why would this knowledge be occulted if it was just a load of BS? These days it is disclosed but the masses only receive it in a watered down version.

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Originally Posted by FMJ

So a person sees patterns and cycles that coincide with it. An explanation for this could be that the readings of this astrological science are so general so that they could apply to all humans at certain times in their lives.

That could be an explanation, but as I said in a post to Fatal, a true astrological reading takes into account much more than just the sun sign of the persons birth month. And it would not be that they could apply "to all humans at certain times in their lives" because the reading would account for when the patterns and changes in cycles take place.

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Originally Posted by FMJ

The cunning person must know a general knowledge of people's hopes and dreams, the potential choices that humans could make, make note of certain times and seasons that certain events occur based on historical patterns, etc.

I'm not saying this doesn't happen, but this relys on your assumption that all people who have ever been successful at reading a person astrologically were deliberatly trying to swindle them. This spanning the globe in multiple cultures over thousands of years, not one honest astrologer amongst them?

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Originally Posted by FMJ

It is not sound, for the only sound logic is deductive (if the rules are followed). Metaphor falls under the category of analogy and as such, is not free from error.

The metaphor itself may not be logic, I'll concede that, but behind the metaphor there may lie a logical truth which is the case for true astrology which is based on universal laws.

And in fact it was incorrect to label the planets as metaphors in the first place. They are not. That would be like saying a calander is a metaphor for the seasons, days, months and years. It's not. It's a way to keep track of the seasons, days, months and years. The celestial bodies act in the same manner as a calander except they are much more accurate because they themselves are woven into the web of cycles that they keep track of.

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Originally Posted by FMJ

They are metaphors for greek and roman so-called 'gods' and their attributes.

So the planets (actual objects in the empiracly known universe) are metaphors for greek and roman gods (of which there is no proof they exist as empiracly knowable "things")???

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Originally Posted by FMJ

What I mean by 'energies' are emotions and human characteristics.

I know. But do you think the energy that makes someone angry, red, hot and bothered is any different than the energy that underlies the scorching hot summer weather, or the hot, dry, arid desert lands or the hot, spicy pepper? Many ancient cultures understood them to be the same and it led to an understanding of the universe that western science is only now beginning to see was right and exact.

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Originally Posted by FMJ

Yes, they were last on the scene, however, when I looked up some info on this, here is what I've found:

Are we still talking exclusively of western astrology? Because I've been talking of the science of astrology as a whole, not just any one particular form.

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Originally Posted by FMJ

Maybe the planets were metaphors for other things, after some additional elements from the Europeans, those planets took on the meanings we have now.

The planets were never metaphors for anything, as I said. They are representations of the archtypical energy which sustains their existence. If I form a club of people with dreadlocks, I, as an emprically known existing person with dreadlocks, can not not be called a metaphor for dreadlocks or for the dreadlock club or for a story about the members of the dreadlock club. I am a representation of the dreadlock club. If then by studying my movements and patterns of behavior and the movements and patterns of behavior of the other members of the dreadlock club and it is shown that the movements and behaviors of any one member can give an accurate insight into the movements and behavior of the other members, both as individuals and a whole then you are using deductive logic and can make predictions about certain members movement and behavior. Hope that some how makes sense.

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Originally Posted by FMJ

Some questions to think about:

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Why are the initial conditions more important than all subsequent conditions for one’s personality and traits? Why is the moment of birth chosen as the significant moment rather than the moment of conception? Why aren’t other initial conditions such as one’s mother’s health, the delivery place conditions, forceps, bright lights, dim room, back seat of a car, etc., more important than whether Mars is ascending, descending, culminating, or fulminating? Why isn’t the planet Earth—the closest large object to us in our solar system--considered a major influence on who we are and what we become? Other than the Sun and the Moon and an occasional passing comet or asteroid, most planetary objects are so distant from us that any influences they might have on anything on our planet are likely to be wiped out by the influences of other things here on Earth.

A lot of those questions can be answered with "they are". Some forms of astrology do take the conception date into account. Other questions have already been answered so are completely irrelevant (the ones that see the celestial bodies as having a direct influence on us rather than as a means of tracking and representing the influences. Even wackypedia knows this so I'm not going to continue repeating it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrology Cycles of change that are observed in the heavens are therefore said to be reflective (not causative) of similar cycles of change observed on earth and within the individual.

The rest can be answered if you open your mind to the possibilty that things like the mother's health, the delivery conditions etc are also governed by the same forces that underly the movement of the celestial bodies. All is accounted for in the great web of life, woven by the Supreme Architect.

Ultimatley, your ending quote shows that you are not even willing to change your point of view on the most fundamental part of astrology (the part I put in green!) if you can't change your view point on that then there is little point to this discussion going any further.

I'm not saying this doesn't happen, but this relys on your assumption that all people who have ever been successful at reading a person astrologically were deliberatly trying to swindle them. This spanning the globe in multiple cultures over thousands of years, not one honest astrologer amongst them?

I do not believe that all of them are intentionally deceiving people. It could be that it is done unintentionally because of delusion. When a person has wrong info and relates this to another person, it is different from a person who speaks a lie knowing it is a lie.

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Originally Posted by Face of the Golden Falcon

And in fact it was incorrect to label the planets as metaphors in the first place. They are not....So the planets (actual objects in the empiracly known universe) are metaphors for greek and roman gods (of which there is no proof they exist as empiracly knowable "things")???

I was referring to the names of the planets. Take March for example. This in honour of the so-called god of mars. Mars represents war. I could go on with the rest of the months which were named in honour of those 'gods'. Even the days of the week were named that way.

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Originally Posted by Face of the Golden Falcon

I know. But do you think the energy that makes someone angry, red, hot and bothered is any different than the energy that underlies the scorching hot summer weather, or the hot, dry, arid desert lands or the hot, spicy pepper? Many ancient cultures understood them to be the same and it led to an understanding of the universe that western science is only now beginning to see was right and exact.

They are not the same. They are quite different.

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Originally Posted by Face of the Golden Falcon

A lot of those questions can be answered with "they are".

I don't know how you could answer a question asking why something is the way it is with the answer 'they are'.

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Originally Posted by Face of the Golden Falcon

Even wackypedia knows this so I'm not going to continue repeating it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrology Cycles of change that are observed in the heavens are therefore said to be reflective (not causative) of similar cycles of change observed on earth and within the individual.

Basically, the microcosm corresponding with the macrocosm and vice versa.

Could you give me an example of a cycle of change observed in the heavens reflective of a specific incident observed here on earth and within the individual?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Face of the Golden Falcon

The rest can be answered if you open your mind to the possibilty that things like the mother's health, the delivery conditions etc are also governed by the same forces that underly the movement of the celestial bodies. All is accounted for in the great web of life, woven by the Supreme Architect.

Ultimatley, your ending quote shows that you are not even willing to change your point of view on the most fundamental part of astrology (the part I put in green!) if you can't change your view point on that then there is little point to this discussion going any further.

Bless!

I have an open mind, but not so open that my brain falls out. I could consider a point of view, but to change it - what evidence are you gonna show me to change it? Are you willing to show and prove evidence?

What are the names of these forces that 'govern' these things and why does not science recognize them?

Is it possible to do an experiment to show and prove the astrological theory of the universe?

I do not believe that all of them are intentionally deceiving people. It could be that it is done unintentionally because of delusion. When a person has wrong info and relates this to another person, it is different from a person who speaks a lie knowing it is a lie.

Agreed. But then at the least you are implying that there has never been an honest astrologer who has also looked deeply into their craft. Because astrology is not simply the relaying of information from one person to another.

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Originally Posted by FMJ

I was referring to the names of the planets. Take March for example. This in honour of the so-called god of mars. Mars represents war. I could go on with the rest of the months which were named in honour of those 'gods'. Even the days of the week were named that way.

It's not as simple as them being named "in honor" of these gods. They were named in correspondance to the underlying archetypal force that manifested during that day or month.

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Originally Posted by FMJ

They are not the same. They are quite different.

Ok. We're doing it like that. I put forth this rebuttal. No they are not different. Not in essence, only in expression.

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Originally Posted by FMJ

I don't know how you could answer a question asking why something is the way it is with the answer 'they are'.

That was in reference to the overiding question of that quote, which seemed to me to be asking "why aren't certain things taken into consideration instead of the celestial bodies".

Quote:

Originally Posted by FMJ

Basically, the microcosm corresponding with the macrocosm and vice versa.

Could you give me an example of a cycle of change observed in the heavens reflective of a specific incident observed here on earth and within the individual?

Well, astrology is rife with examples. That's what it's all about. Isn't that what we are debating? If I said when Mars moves into such and such place, those who were born in such and such time would be susceptible to being overly aggressive and likely to fly off the handle easily, would that make any difference? Like I said I thought that was what we were debating. You are under the impression that these examples are self-fulfulling and the result of cunning con artists' abilities. I disagree and think that it is the result of an intricately designed universe that involves the interdependant relationships of archetypal forces that underly physical existence. And because you don't think these archtypal forces exist, it's going to be tough to convince you otherwise unless you decide to look into such things as archetypal forces, the tree of life, chinese medicine and astrology etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FMJ

I have an open mind, but not so open that my brain falls out. I could consider a point of view, but to change it - what evidence are you gonna show me to change it? Are you willing to show and prove evidence?

You have no choice but to change your mind on the point that I was refering to because it is a FACT that in astrology the celestial bodies are considered REFLECTIVE of the changes not CAUSATIVE. This is what I was refering to.

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Originally Posted by FMJ

What are the names of these forces that 'govern' these things and why does not science recognize them?

They have been called many things by many different cultures. Often times they are anthropomorphized into what has been called "gods".

And why doesn't "science" recognize them? Are you kidding? What "science" are we talking about? The propaganda machine science of the Corporatist, Satanic world masters?

"Science" recognized these forces in cultures from Kamit, China, India, Africa etc etc throughout time. And as I said, it led to an understanding of the world that gave birth to things like the Chinese Medicinal System as opposed to the band-aid for a missing limb medicinal system of the current world power.

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Originally Posted by FMJ

Is it possible to do an experiment to show and prove the astrological theory of the universe?

Only you if you have a white coat on and are considered an "expert", otherwise you have no business even thinking about this stuff.

Life is the experiment. Read some stuff of the things I stated above, Tree of Life, Chinese knowledge on elements, archetypal forces, astrology, totems etc. then observe reality.

This Moon-ruled sign rules the home, family, motherhood, and children. It's also in charge of emotions, so expect any Cancer planet to operate "from its gut." Cancer specializes in instinct. It's cardinal water—good at emotional beginnings and keeping private. But the world is a scary place to Cancer planets—they're emotionally vulnerable, sensitive, and easily hurt. Cancer planets often long for their safe nests. Because they love with the energy of the Moon, Cancer planets say "I love you" by tending to your needs for food, warmth, or a place to sleep. They offer the very best hugs in the zodiac. The problem with Cancer planets is that they often become needy or unable to function unless they feel someone or something is dependent on them. They are moody, but it's their job to be—they're Moon-ruled.

Water signs are gifted by being able to sense. Cancer uses its instinct, and Pisces uses its intuition. However, Scorpio operates on its perceptive abilities. Planets in this sign are detectives, experts at the delicate art of strategy. Your Scorpio planets sift through every situation for subtle clues, which they analyze carefully to determine what's really going on. Because they're good at spotting clues, they're also gifted at sending equally subtle signals back into the environment, and at imperceptibly altering a situation by manipulating it with the right word or movement. Scorpio planets are constantly searching for intimacy. They want the real stuff from all encounters. No lighthearted Libra chit-chat—they want to bare their souls. They seek out intensity and crises. They can be relentless, obsessive, and jealous—remember that this is fixed water energy, so Scorpio feels things deeply and forever. Give your Scorpio planets what they crave: the opportunity to walk fire and to experience life-and-death situations. They're wells of limitless energy.

Pour a glass of water onto a table, and you'll see how mutable water flows into every comer. With no walls to contain it, Pisces, like this water, bonds itself emotionally to whatever is exposed. This is the source of Pisces' well-deserved reputation for compassion. It is also the source of a tendency to escape reality. Planets in this sign are ultra sensitive, feeling anything and everything. They're psychic sponges that often need time alone to unload and reassemble themselves. Exposure to others, especially crowds, is exhausting co your Pisces planet. It's in tins sign that you may find a tendency to cake in stray people and animals, but also where you’ll need to watch for the possibility of being victimized or taken advantage of in some way. Pisces planets are not known for their realistic view of the world—they see the best in any person or situation—but when reality steps in they sometimes can be disappointed- These planets are the romantics of the zodiac. Let them dream in healthy ways.

Water signs are attuned to waves of emotion, and often seem to have a built-in sonar for reading a mood. This gives them a special sensitivity in relationships, knowing when to show warmth and when to hold back. At their best, they are a healing force that brings people together -- at their worst, they are psychic vampires, able to manipulate and drain the life force of those closest to them.

Water signs are tuned into the many shades of meaning in relationships, and at times can absorb "vibes" from others. They have to work harder than other elements to maintain their personal boundaries."

This word means first, and comes from the Latin cardinalis, with the meaning of principal or pivotal. The role of cardinal signs is to push forward, be first, initiate.
What do Cardinal signs have in common?:

They're the instigators, ready to forge ahead with plans, and attract those that can support their efforts. Cardinal signs are leaders, and tend to be outgoing because they're engaged with the world in a dynamic way. They're restless to start new projects, and happiest when running the show."

Scorpio Aug 20 2012
Someone seems to be instigating some trouble with you, Scorpio. This person is saying things that annoy you and/or is pushing your buttons in other ways. You could waste your time trying to analyze this person's motivation, but what would be the point? You could also allow this person to get to you with his/her antics, but that would only hurt you. This probably isn't the first time this has happened, and it won't be the last - unless, that is, you put a stop to it right now. Given the fact that your adversary's goal is to annoy you, the best response would be no response.
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