Comments on: Paying For It: a Comic-Strip Memoir About Being a John, by Chester Brownhttp://boingboing.net/2011/05/10/paying-for-it-a-comi.html
Brain candy for Happy MutantsMon, 15 Sep 2014 23:11:17 +0000hourly1http://wordpress.org/?v=4.1.1By: Gulliverhttp://boingboing.net/2011/05/10/paying-for-it-a-comi.html#comment-1107977
Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000#comment-1107977>> It’s not the immorality that’s tragic. It’s that the author gave up on real intimacy for some hollow parody of it. You can no more buy love than you can buy friendship.

> And how dare he write about this unpleasant side of himself!

Letâ€™s try this again, shall we? If I criticize English food as bland and unfulfilling, am I criticizing the character of food critics who enjoy and write about English food? The answer is no, I am disagree with their taste in food. Am I criticizing the character of the cooks that prepare and serve English food? No, I am criticizing their food.

> No, seriously, have you read any Chester Brown?

Only â€œI Never Liked Youâ€ while I was waiting several hours for friends doing gift shopping in a Half Price Books. It was good enough that I did not set it down and move to something else in a store filled with books, so that should indicate something of my opinion of the authorâ€™s writing.

In this thread, however, I was commenting on Markâ€™s blog post and his podcast interview with the author. If that was previously unclear, now it should be clear.

> I haven’t read this book of his yet, but I can pretty much guess that it’s not going to be a treatise about “Hey, prostitution is GREAT! It makes me feel SO GOOD about myself!”

To repeat, the tragedy, in my personal opinion, is not that the author decided to â€œPay for Itâ€ but that he decided to swear off emotionally intimate romantic relationships. Itâ€™s a tragedy in the same way that it would be a tragedy if someone swore off ever watching sunsets; i.e. not a moral tragedy, a tragedy of missing out on something wonderful. Again, this is my opinion, nothing more and nothing less.

]]>By: Gulliverhttp://boingboing.net/2011/05/10/paying-for-it-a-comi.html#comment-1107979
Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000#comment-1107979> You realize this isn’t a “how to” book, right? As in, whether or not you agree with the subject’s moral decisions isn’t exactly the point of the book?

For the fourth time, I have NO moral objection to the authorâ€™s decision to do ANYTHING indicated in the blog post. I have an OPINION that he is depriving himself of something great.

> I’d also be curious to know what percentage of the above people with extreme anti prostitution opinions are American.

I am American, and I have no objection to people exchanging sex for money. I do have an objection to laws that criminalize consenting activities, thereby making it impossible for those who sell the activity (and this goes for everything from sex to drugs to gambling to boxing rings) to obtain legal recourse or legal protection from buyers that cheat or harm them, or for society to regulate and tax their business as a legitimate part of the economy.

> Amazing how differently prostitution is viewed in Europe, and pretty much everywhere else in the world.

The problem with this statement is that it implies that a section of land with a government can hold views. Only individuals can do that. Unless youâ€™re suggesting that where a person is born or lives deterministically influences what they think and believe.

]]>By: Gulliverhttp://boingboing.net/2011/05/10/paying-for-it-a-comi.html#comment-1107980
Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000#comment-1107980> Would you want your children or family members to participate in the industry? Generally, no again.

But is this because its wrong in and of itself, or because itâ€™s dangerous as a criminal enterprise? Obviously this varies from person to person.

They systematically amplify their personal sociopatic and self-destructive tendencies to a point where it can be used for comic- and/or dramatic effect. Then they record the resulting events for posterity and sell it as a slice-of-life.

The end result may be catharic, it might be entertaining and it’s most probably art.

It would be a grave mistake, however, to interpet it as “documentary”, let alone “authentic”. These Toronto hipsters do NOT play in the same leauge as, say, Harvey Pekar, even though they really, really would like you to think so.

]]>By: Gulliverhttp://boingboing.net/2011/05/10/paying-for-it-a-comi.html#comment-1106472
Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000#comment-1106472It’s not the immorality that’s tragic. It’s that the author gave up on real intimacy for some hollow parody of it. You can no more buy love than you can buy friendship. Even sex is fun because it’s mutually enjoyable. Love and lust are reciprocal exercises. Otherwise it’s nothing more than masturbation with venereal diseases, and as we all know…

YMMV. I’m not judging character, but I say anyone who gives up on sincere relationships is throwing away the best part of life, and life ain’t exactly overflowing with reasons for joy to begin with.

]]>By: osmohttp://boingboing.net/2011/05/10/paying-for-it-a-comi.html#comment-1106221
Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000#comment-1106221I know too many prostitutes and ex-prostitutes, male and female, to find anything endearing with johns. And I know too many self-proclaimed liberterians with a need to justify their inability to cope with or be attractive to other humans with some post-randian nonsense – to fall into that pit of faux-politics. I wish (actuall) liberterians would try to have some ideological rince up at one point, shake the tree and make all the bad apples fall out.

]]>By: Anonymoushttp://boingboing.net/2011/05/10/paying-for-it-a-comi.html#comment-1106735
Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000#comment-1106735Prostitution should only be legalized if we ensure that sex-workers can unionize by simple card-check. What sex workers need is the right to collectively bargain for better wages, hours, and most importantly working conditions including basic health and safety. This would also benefit their clients, and the spouses and other partners of “johns” as well. The spread of disease would be lessened, public heath generally would improve, and public health costs would go down.
]]>By: Anonymoushttp://boingboing.net/2011/05/10/paying-for-it-a-comi.html#comment-1106483
Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000#comment-1106483Actually, I can field that one.

Often times, a new (male) partner can’t manage to get me to a climax. So why would I pay for that?

]]>By: Anonymoushttp://boingboing.net/2011/05/10/paying-for-it-a-comi.html#comment-1106741
Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000#comment-1106741“It’s not the immorality that’s tragic. It’s that the author gave up on real intimacy for some hollow parody of it.”

Do not judge until you have walked in his shoes, though hopefully you never will. There are many of us who, through no fault of our own, are quite incapable of close human relationships. We are not evil people, nor are we lazy and “gave up on intimacy” easily (in fact we may have worked at it for years, and inadvertently hurt many people with our clueless hearts before we realized “I can’t do this.” Sometimes I think of homosexuals who were guilted by society into trying and trying to be straight as the best analogue.) We may still have all the normal sexual urges and desires, and the need to deal with them, but intimacy on a deeper level is alien.

I have no opinion on prostituion, have never gone to one, but I don’t doubt that perfectly rational and humane reasons can be made either way, and the existence of abused sex slaves or happy hookers is not enough to prove either case.

It’s not the immorality that’s tragic. It’s that the author gave up on real intimacy for some hollow parody of it. You can no more buy love than you can buy friendship.

And how dare he write about this unpleasant side of himself!

No, seriously, have you read any Chester Brown? I haven’t read this book of his yet, but I can pretty much guess that it’s not going to be a treatise about “Hey, prostitution is GREAT! It makes me feel SO GOOD about myself!”

]]>By: 3lbFlaxhttp://boingboing.net/2011/05/10/paying-for-it-a-comi.html#comment-1106505
Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000#comment-1106505You might not agree with Chester Brown’s opinions or behaviour, but you can rely on him to produce an honest and superbly crafted book, every time.

Here’s a very recent interview with Chester from The Comics Journal, which touches on the emotional ‘flatness’ Mark mentions here:

Thanks for bringing this up as together with the TCJ interview it prompted me to check the release status on Amazon UK – it’s still not available on there, but several independent sellers have it in stock, so it’s on its way to me now. Looking forward to it.

I know too many victims of theft to find anything endearing about thieves.

]]>By: Anonymoushttp://boingboing.net/2011/05/10/paying-for-it-a-comi.html#comment-1106529
Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000#comment-1106529Thanks for posting this. I was a big fan of Yummy Fur back in the day and reading beyond the surface of his books one found a good bit to think about.

I look forward to reading this.

]]>By: gravytophttp://boingboing.net/2011/05/10/paying-for-it-a-comi.html#comment-1106295
Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000#comment-1106295If hadn’t cultivated such a liking for stealing from your Johns (nothing like it!), perhaps you wouldn’t have developed such strong moral qualms about the sex trade?
]]>By: Jackhttp://boingboing.net/2011/05/10/paying-for-it-a-comi.html#comment-1106830
Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000#comment-1106830I really donâ€™t understand detractors of this work. Nobody is forcing you to buy it, and I am intrigued not so much because of the subject matter as much as itâ€™s one of the few memoirs I can think of that touches on a topic not touched on. Too many memoirs and underground comics are focused on fairly cliched topics such as â€œI did drugs!â€ or â€œMy parents were mean to me!â€ And in the right hands with the right story, those subjects are interesting. But mostly they are tired and played out.

Someone admitting not only why they solicit prostitutes, but giving the backstory as to how it happened is really a unique P.O.V.

And please, I donâ€™t want to hear anything about the conditions of sex workers or â€œdeepâ€ thoughts like why are â€œJohnsâ€ always men. If you donâ€™t understand biology and how all males are predisposed to promiscuity, donâ€™t talk. And if that sounds sexist, I a sorry. But letâ€™s face facts: Most women who want to simply â€œget laidâ€ can walk into a bar and in seconds meet someone. Same is not true for men.

Gender roles should not define a person, but being willfully clueless as to how natural biological behavior plays out in the world is naive at best. And if Chester Brown feels that he needs to do this to satisfy his urges, fine.

I have watched tons of so-called â€œnormalâ€ relationships â€œsurviveâ€ with tons of abuse, dysfunction and worse happening. At least Chester Brown is strong enough to admit what he does, why he does it and not hide his secrets behind closed doors.

> Do not judge until you have walked in his shoes, though hopefully you never will. There are many of us who, through no fault of our own, are quite incapable of close human relationships.

Youâ€™re right, and I readily concede that, to the limit such things can be determined by a brief interview, Chester Brown does not sound unhappy or depressed in Markâ€™s podcast.

> We are not evil people, nor are we lazy and “gave up on intimacy” easily (in fact we may have worked at it for years, and inadvertently hurt many people with our clueless hearts before we realized “I can’t do this.”

I certainly did not mean to suggest that. I merely wished to express that I think that living without emotional intimacy is missing out on something wonderful. Perhaps I worded it poorly. Love has played a seminal role in my life, and I can only speak from my own experience. Others should absolutely follow their own drummer and if emotional intimacy is not part of what they choose, I surely wish them happiness and prosperity in whatever are the keystones in their lives. People are different and what floats my boat wonâ€™t float everyoneâ€™s.

> Sometimes I think of homosexuals who were guilted by society into trying and trying to be straight as the best analogue.)

Like I said, Iâ€™m not judging anyoneâ€™s moral character, only why I would not eschew emotional intimacy. My view is always that as long as they coerce no one, people should be free to live however they choose. Iâ€™m not a libertarian in the economic sense, but I am an ardent civil libertarian.

> We may still have all the normal sexual urges and desires, and the need to deal with them, but intimacy on a deeper level is alien.

Iâ€™ve gone though times in my life when I wanted to be alone, the last time for several years in my mid-twenties when I was focused inward on choosing who I wanted to be. So while my reasons were probably not the same as they are for everyone, I do understand the desire for solitude of the heart.

> I have no opinion on prostituion, have never gone to one, but I don’t doubt that perfectly rational and humane reasons can be made either way, and the existence of abused sex slaves or happy hookers is not enough to prove either case.

I agree. The fact that sex slavery exists highlights not that â€œpaying for itâ€ or â€œbeing paid for itâ€ is immoral â€“ that argument can only be made, in my humble opinion, from the axiom that sexuality is sacred to some higher moral authority such as a deity â€“ but that society fails epically to protect victims of the crime of slavery which is, in my not so humble opinion, on the same level as murder. Slavery should be morally reprehensible whatever the slave is being forced to do. And restricting what people can do though it coerce no one is the mirror image of that. I happen to think that prevalent vice persists in economies like the sex and drug trades because moralists of all stripes and poltical bents conflate the personal well-being of all with what they deem to be best for them, whether by controlling how they are allowed to live their lives for the good of society or their own hypothetical immortal souls. Itâ€™s basically impossible to get rid of a trade neither the sellers nor buyers will turn each other in for, so the whole ecosystem goes underground into the opportunistic arms of the criminally inclined who are ever eager to make a killing on easy, tax-free money.

My personal nonplussedness with regard to sex as a business transaction is not a moral objection. Itâ€™s that itâ€™s creepy. Think of the holodecks on Star Trek. Itâ€™s often been joked that holodecks wouldnâ€™t cater so much to the Parrises Squares or rock-climbing crowd, as they would quickly become virtual bordellos (or perhaps romance holonovels for the less physically aroused). But consider how many people would steer wide of physical intimacy in that uncanny valley full of apparently Turing capable zombies. Sex is one step further in that your partner or partners really are cognizant of the sex. If they arenâ€™t there because they enjoy you enough to want to do it for its own merits, it would be like having sex with a puppet controlled by some coolly detached operator. There would be zero emotional engagement. Instead of a social activity, sex would become an empty routine. That does not sound anymore appealing than walking up to strangers and paying them for hugs. Porn and erotica achieve all of the necessary physical stimuli, but detaches the masturbator as completely as the people actually posing or having sex.

]]>By: loki_monsterhttp://boingboing.net/2011/05/10/paying-for-it-a-comi.html#comment-1106334
Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000#comment-1106334What a turd. Oh so sorry you had your heart broken like 99.999% of the rest of us, but having your heart broken does not entitle you to feed into the sex trade. A significant number of prostitutes are *actually* victims of abusive childhoods, sex trafficking, abusive pimps, and a legal system that punishes the sex worker, not douchebags like Chester Brown who patronize sex workers. Those things are way worse than being a psuedo-victim in your own mind like good ol’ Chet here. Disgusting.
]]>By: wrybreadhttp://boingboing.net/2011/05/10/paying-for-it-a-comi.html#comment-1107115
Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000#comment-1107115You realize this isn’t a “how to” book, right? As in, whether or not you agree with the subject’s moral decisions isn’t exactly the point of the book? In fact, it seems to me that this sort of honest portrayal is made all the more interesting by it being foreign.

I’d also be curious to know what percentage of the above people with extreme anti prostitution opinions are American. Amazing how differently prostitution is viewed in Europe, and pretty much everywhere else in the world.

]]>By: Anonymoushttp://boingboing.net/2011/05/10/paying-for-it-a-comi.html#comment-1125804
Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000#comment-1125804Some of your readers might be interested in Mykola Dementiuk’s newest book “100 Whores: Memories of a John.” It contains 100 short vignettes of real experiences, 5 short stories of prostitution in New York City, and a novelette called “The Christmas Whore” which immortalizes an O’Henry-type story that will leave you laughing — and crying. 100 Whores has a few illustrations but mostly well-put-together words by a new author who won the Lambda Literary Award last year. I am proud to be his editor.

]]>By: Borgs_of_Canadahttp://boingboing.net/2011/05/10/paying-for-it-a-comi.html#comment-1106349
Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000#comment-1106349Chester Brown also wrote the excellent “The Playboy”, a comic book about his use of pornography, his masturbation and the impact it had on his “real” sexual life. Probably the most intimate and honest bio I read. I am looking forward to read this one.
]]>By: Anonymoushttp://boingboing.net/2011/05/10/paying-for-it-a-comi.html#comment-1107118
Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000#comment-1107118Sorry but that whole all “men are biologically predisposed to be promiscious” spiel is a load of crap designed to subjugate the sexual rights of women and keep the sexes divided. It’s ignorance. Read ‘Sex At Dawn’ by Christopher Ryan, you might learn something.

Women are just as sexual as men, it’s just that when we act on our desires or show any sign of sexual autonomy we get labelled as massive cum-guzzling sluts by a conservative religious society.

For the record, I’m a part-time sex worker who never suffered child abuse and isn’t funding a drug habit.(and yes, we can read all those long technical words in Boing Boing!) I can’t afford a shoe AND record collection with just my day job wages, and plus I actually like sex. Most johns are male, probably because of the point I made above. Which is a shame because I would like a little more variety now and then.

However, as stated by other posters above, I do feel strange about people whose sole form of sexual contact is with
workers. It makes it too easy not to bother even trying to communicate with other humans as, you know, humans.