Also something like NO infuse sprayed onto the area before any activity may help By increasing blood flow to the area. Then theres other topical products such as eviscerate, ab solution or celluthin (all containing aminophylline)

Originally Posted by runner_79

To obtain ultimate leaness, does one need to give up shakes due to insulin? Eat ONLY whole foods?

Where would you get an idea like this?

"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates

Also something like NO infuse sprayed onto the area before any activity may help By increasing blood flow to the area. Then theres other topical products such as eviscerate, ab solution or celluthin (all containing aminophylline)

Where would you get an idea like this?

thermogenic effect of whole foods is greater then liquid food.

Insulin doesnt have much to do with it as its needed somewhat to raise leptin and increase fat burning along with raising leptin you reduce resistin which diminishes insulin sensitivity.

Even if this is true (which is debatable and questionable) is the difference in TEF between the two even significant enough that it will have actual physique altering impact on someone? Or in other words, if you swap out two meals that contained 50g of protein from chicken breast and replaced it with 50g worth of liquid protein and all other macros and calories remained the same, even if we assume that the TEF of whole food is greater, would there really be a significant difference in body fat reduction? I dont believe there would be...

"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates

Even if this is true (which is debatable and questionable) is the difference in TEF between the two even significant enough that it will have actual physique altering impact on someone? Or in other words, if you swap out two meals that contained 50g of protein from chicken breast and replaced it with 50g worth of liquid protein and all other macros and calories remained the same, even if we assume that the TEF of whole food is greater, would there really be a significant difference in body fat reduction? I dont believe there would be...

I concur.

I could swear that I just read a study where liquid produced a grater thermic effect.

The answer to the actual question is no, regardless. You can get insanely peeled even still incorporating shakes. Period.

Even if this is true (which is debatable and questionable) is the difference in TEF between the two even significant enough that it will have actual physique altering impact on someone? Or in other words, if you swap out two meals that contained 50g of protein from chicken breast and replaced it with 50g worth of liquid protein and all other macros and calories remained the same, even if we assume that the TEF of whole food is greater, would there really be a significant difference in body fat reduction? I dont believe there would be...

over time, and overall feeling of fullness yes.

even if its 5%-10% greater, thats lets say 10-20 cals off the meal, each meal. adds up in the long run especially while your cals are low.

Ive seens a difference on a 1700 cal diet a day with all whole foods, vs whole foods and 1 shake.

I could swear that I just read a study where liquid produced a grater thermic effect.

The answer to the actual question is no, regardless. You can get insanely peeled even still incorporating shakes. Period.

This one?

The physical state of a meal affects hormone release and postprandial thermogenesis

There is evidence that food consistency may influence postprandial physiological responses. Recently we found that homogenization of a vegetable-rich meal significantly delayed the gastric emptying rate and was more satiating than the same meal in solid-liquid form. In this present study we investigated whether homogenization also influences endocrine and metabolic responses to the meal. Eight healthy men, aged 21-28 (mean 24.5) years, were given the meal (cooked vegetables 250 g, cheese 35 g, croutons 50 g and olive oil 25 g, with water 300 ml; total energy 2.6 MJ) in both solid-liquid (SM) and homogenized (HM) form, in random order, at 1-week intervals. Variables assayed were plasma glucose, insulin and glucose-dependent insulinotropic peptide (GIP) levels for 2 h and diet-induced thermogenesis (DIT) for 5 h. Plasma glucose pattern was similar after both meals. However, HM induced significantly greater insulin, GIP and DIT responses than SM. Mean integrated areas under the curves (AUC) were 1.7 (SEM 0.38) v. 1.2 (SEM 0.33) U/l per 120 min (P = 0.005) for insulin, 19.9 (SEM 2.44) v. 16 (SEM 1.92) nmol/l per 120 min (P = 0.042) for GIP, and 237.7 (SEM 16.32) v. 126.4 (SEM 23.48) kJ/300 min (P = 0.0029) for DIT respectively. Differences between GIP-AUC after HM and SM correlated significantly with differences between insulin-AUC after HM and SM (r2 0.62, P = 0.021). These findings demonstrate that homogenization of a meal results in a coordinated series of changes of physiological gastroentero-pancreatic functions and confirm that the physical state of the meal plays an important role in modulating endocrine and metabolic responses to food.

PMID 10911770

"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates

even if its 5%-10% greater, thats lets say 10-20 cals off the meal, each meal. adds up in the long run especially while your cals are low.

Ive seens a difference on a 1700 cal diet a day with all whole foods, vs whole foods and 1 shake.

Here you are assuming that a whole more is more satiating over a liquid meal which again is debatable and questionable. The liquifying of food could very well result in a slower gastric emptying and even result in a greater full feeling afterwards. But really the full feeling really becomes a moot issue if the person is able to demonstrate some self control and restraint and are able to stuck to their diet plan. And honestly when someone is dieting down to extreme leanness it is just about inevitable they will feel hungry at times so they need to just suck it up and get used to to the feeling IMO :P

End of the day it is a choice one will have to make and experiment with and see which gives them better results as there is nothing really definitive that would suggest one is better than the other with regard to body composition (now health is a different story when your comparing nutrient dense whole foods vs shakes )

"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates

Here you are assuming that a whole more is more satiating over a liquid meal which again is debatable and questionable. The liquifying of food could very well result in a slower gastric emptying and even result in a greater full feeling afterwards. But really the full feeling really becomes a moot issue if the person is able to demonstrate some self control and restraint and are able to stuck to their diet plan. And honestly when someone is dieting down to extreme leanness it is just about inevitable they will feel hungry at times so they need to just suck it up and get used to to the feeling IMO :P

End of the day it is a choice one will have to make and experiment with and see which gives them better results as there is nothing really definitive that would suggest one is better than the other with regard to body composition (now health is a different story when your comparing nutrient dense whole foods vs shakes )

About the study i read that to. if I remember correctly it was posted by layne norton. Cant remember where i read it at at the moment though

I actually fasted all day yesterday with nothing but peptopro/bcaa every few hours, and was not hungry at all. Probably the least hungry I have ever been, that I can remember..lol I felt surprisingly good.