thanks man. i was gonna go down there tomorrow for some 3 1/2s. i got a moss935 from beans for a replacment on my other 12 that sh!t the bed. im on the last few boxes of my case of black cloud 3s. seeing for meself if the 3 1/2 are more lethel than the 3s. still plan on getting a sp10 or gold 10 but this will do til i find a deal on one

Did they ever tell you what was wrong with your first gun? I just had a buddy of mine ask me about the quality of the Glocks because he saw them advertised in a Cabelas sales flyer. Have you been seeing any ducks?

I have had a Glock 22 and now have a 27. Both are very good guns. Good feel in the hands, though with the 27 I highly recommend buying two round mag extensions. These are textured and contoured exactly like the rest of the grip and help a lot with control.

me and colt found a flock of 100 or so mallards that had become local birds over the pass 2 maybe 3 weeks. as soon as we found there feed/ roosting pattern they left. other than those, nothing. been seeing a bunch of buffs this pass week. we got snow lastnight and plan on going monday. really hope by now the birds are moving

daffy... wrote:dont gotta sell me. ive heard a lot of good about the 22s, how do you like the 19s?

... i suppose il leave the 45s to the 1911

The 19's? I hate 9mm with a passion, so I think they suck. Not because of the gun but because of the round they fire. They are the exact same frame as the .40 cal. Only difference is the diameter of the barrel. The slide is the same size, the frame is the same size, and the mags will fit one another. If you want to carry this gun I'd recommend the model 23. It's got a 1" shorter barrel and a little smaller grip, but it's still fun to shoot. I hate sub compact guns. Around the house I carry a full size 1911 and when I carry I'll have a full size 1911 or a glock 23 or a Springfield XD Service Model.

Locked&Loaded wrote: I got out shot by a 13 yeard old girl.

jrockncash wrote:Is that mask only for ghosts or can fat guys with little weiners use it too?

If practice makes perfect, then my practice rounds shoot almost exactly like my defense rounds. Heck, if I didn't have any defense rounds, my FMJ practice rounds have enough knock down power to be used as defense rounds.

With 9mm you have to shoot +P rounds, so you can use all the cheap ammo you want, but unless you're shooting a box of +p's every time you go to the range, you're doing yourself a disservice.

Also, it is all about Knock Down Power. Can a .22LR to the head kill someone, hell yes it can, but if you miss their head and hit the shoulder, will it slow them down?

So if you have a .45ACP, 230Grain bullet, and muzzle velocity of 850FPS, that gives you a KO value of 13.

9mm (.356 inches), 124 grain bullet, and a muzzle velocity of 1220 fps, that gives you a KO value of 8.

What does that mean? It means that if I hit them with a 45, I'm more likely to knock them down than with a 9mm.

.40 S&W, if you have a 155 GR bullet and muzzle velocity of 1140 FPS, then you have a KO value of 10.

I linked the calculator, so play with it all you want. +P rounds with a 9mm is about as small as I want to get with self defense rounds. The only thing I like about the 9mm is the capacity and thats about it. But just looking at the Knock down coefficient, I much prefer my Springfield XD .45 ACP that holds 13 rounds.

It's a fact that 70 percent of the people who purchase heavier tackle do so with the categorical I just lost a huge snook! Einstein Hairdo.The other 30 percent have either Tarpon Fever or are sporting a hand cramped into a claw from a deepwater grouper.

im not biased either way but your comparing a human defence firearm as to a long rifle used on thick-skin big-game.

if i want a rolly-polly pumpkinball with knock down power we can quickly turn this conversation over to i prefur pistol-gripped shotguns.

as of now im looking for a 40cal cus it meets both my desires.

but lets compare apples to apples. example. high capcity of the 9mm, do i need 15-20 rounds if 2-3 attackers are engaging in gun fire? how about recoil? if i have gun fire from differnt attackers am i going to have the bearings before shots to calmly and accuratly place lethal shots

daffy... wrote:im not biased either way but your comparing a human defence firearm as to a long rifle used on thick-skin big-game.

if i want a rolly-polly pumpkinball with knock down power we can quickly turn this conversation over to i prefur pistol-gripped shotguns.

as of now im looking for a 40cal cus it meets both my desires.

but lets compare apples to apples. example. high capcity of the 9mm, do i need 15-20 rounds if 2-3 attackers are engaging in gun fire? how about recoil? if i have gun fire from differnt attackers am i going to have the bearings before shots to calmly and accuratly place lethal shots

45ACP, or 45 Auto . . . you know the stuff the 1911 action is famous for shooting during WWII? Its what my Springfield XD Pistol shoots. How is that a big game round? Furthermore, how is the knockdown coefficient irrelevant? If you miss the heart and hit somebody in the shoulder, you are much more likely to knock down your victim with a 45ACP than a 9mm Luger. 40S&W is a nice middle of the road, and I would take it over a 9mm any day.

BTW I addressed recoil in my previous post. Go shoot a 45 ACP along side a 40 S&W and 9mm +p. The recoil on the 40 and the 9mm are a lot snappier than that of the 45. Also, since the 45 doesn't have to use high pressure loads to be adequate, see knockout power, your practice rounds shoot exactly like your defense rounds. My 5' 4" wife shoots a 45 without any problems.

As for capacity, my 45 holds 13 +1 rounds, I'm not sure how many a glock can hold. My bet is that if I have to shoot 10 rounds or more to settle a conflict, then I'm probably already dead.

I'm sorry, as for glock vs xd vs brand x, its all preference, but as for rounds, you can call me old school but I like a 45.

It's a fact that 70 percent of the people who purchase heavier tackle do so with the categorical I just lost a huge snook! Einstein Hairdo.The other 30 percent have either Tarpon Fever or are sporting a hand cramped into a claw from a deepwater grouper.

45ACP, or 45 Auto . . . you know the stuff the 1911 action is famous for shooting during WWII? Its what my Springfield XD Pistol shoots. How is that a big game round? Furthermore, how is the knockdown coefficient irrelevant? If you miss the heart and hit somebody in the shoulder, you are much more likely to knock down your victim with a 45ACP than a 9mm Luger.

im simply saying "knock down power" is something i look for in a firearm i use for wild animals. i have a feeling if i hit you anywhere from your neck to you hips with a .380 youll hit the ground and shock will take over sense of reality and lose all of your motor skills. unlike my whitetailed friend where when i put a softpoint 30 caliber round at 2000 feet per second straight threw his heart and catch the back side of his lung runs 100yards before it tightens up stiff and hits the deck like a box of rocks

and as for 45acp, 45 auto. (A-auto),C-centerfire,P-pistol)... samething and yes i like the xd AND xdm's also, i prefur the test of time and like my 1911s better but im researching glocks and there calibers in this topics forum.

has anyone favord the 9mm cus of its faster round and other quailties, does the 40 lack something, doesnt seem popular in most owners?

My own personal choice would be to not buy any of them. If I was going to buy a glock it would be a Model 31. Its chambered for .357 sig and personally I think it would outperform both 9mm and 40. I owned the model 23 and really liked it alot but it was a little too small for my hands. I have heard that the 9mm hollow point will not expand when shot throug some types of soft wood. As a home defense round I want a full strength hollow point bullet that is gonna penetrate what ever the bad guy is hiding behind and hit him like a hammer. I feel that knock down power is important, but "stay down" power is even more important. I dont want an intruder to be able to get to his feet or pick his gun up again. So my choice would be the .357 sig first and the .40 S&W second ....... The .45 is a good choice too but I want to have the most number of rounds with the least amount of reloading, so if I can get a 15 round clip all the better!!! I know that there are .45's out there that can hold 14 rounds, para ordinance P14-45, but it makes the grip feel too wide for me so I would stick with a smaller caliber... Another thing to consider is that once upon a time, back in the early 80's, all the police were trading in their .38's and .357 for 9mms. Now over the last 10 years most police agencies are switching to .40's, .45's, and .357 sigs ..... why??? Because they have found that the 9mm wasnt stopping the bad guys, some would get hit and continue to fight. Just my .02 ...... not gospel.

If you are looking for a self defense round, why wouldn't knock down power be important to you? If some meth head or coke head breaks into your house, are you really that certain that misplaced shot from a .380 or 9mm is going to put him in shock and keep him from coming at you?

I honestly feel the philosophies of killing an animal and a person are the same. When you shoot, you want them to die and you want them to die fast. Sure 90% of the time, the perp will run off if shot at, but again, what if that guy is some wigged out meth head? Injured deer don't shoot back at you, but injured criminals do. This is why knock down power is so important, especially in a defense scenario.

I don't know how many pistols you own. If this is your only defense pistol, and you were between a 40, .357 sig, and 9mm, I would go with the 40. Its knock down coefficient is similar enough to a 45, scoring around a 10, and my only issue with it is just the snappy recoil. .357 sig scores about a 9 on the knockdown coefficient and the Ammo is too flipping expensive.

If you already have a 45 or a 40, then I would get the 9mm. In fact I'm going to probably buy a 9mm over Christmas for my wife. I figure I can have the 45 in my night stand and she can have the 9mm in her night stand, so between the two of us we'll have power and capacity.

It's a fact that 70 percent of the people who purchase heavier tackle do so with the categorical I just lost a huge snook! Einstein Hairdo.The other 30 percent have either Tarpon Fever or are sporting a hand cramped into a claw from a deepwater grouper.

GroundSwatter wrote:If you are looking for a self defense round, why wouldn't knock down power be important to you? If some meth head or coke head breaks into your house, are you really that certain that misplaced shot from a .380 or 9mm is going to put him in shock and keep him from coming at you?

I honestly feel the philosophies of killing an animal and a person are the same. When you shoot, you want them to die and you want them to die fast. Sure 90% of the time, the perp will run off if shot at, but again, what if that guy is some wigged out meth head? Injured deer don't shoot back at you, but injured criminals do. This is why knock down power is so important, especially in a defense scenario.

I don't know how many pistols you own. If this is your only defense pistol, and you were between a 40, .357 sig, and 9mm, I would go with the 40. Its knock down coefficient is similar enough to a 45, scoring around a 10, and my only issue with it is just the snappy recoil. .357 sig scores about a 9 on the knockdown coefficient and the Ammo is too flipping expensive.

If you already have a 45 or a 40, then I would get the 9mm. In fact I'm going to probably buy a 9mm over Christmas for my wife. I figure I can have the 45 in my night stand and she can have the 9mm in her night stand, so between the two of us we'll have power and capacity.

If you are so concerned about a one shot stop why don't you own a 10mm?

daffy... wrote:preach why dont you like 9mm? if you say what i think your going to say im gonna call you a loser and thick skulled

It doesn't have the knock down power of a .40 or .45. That's not my biggest reason though. The reason I hate it is because it is a quick round and the hollow points aren't big enough. They are legendary for clogging with clothing and zipping right through a person. Which gives an effect more similar to a stabbing than a shooting. If you're hollow points clog in a personal defense situation you're screwed.

Locked&Loaded wrote: I got out shot by a 13 yeard old girl.

jrockncash wrote:Is that mask only for ghosts or can fat guys with little weiners use it too?

daffy... wrote:i currently have multiple home defence weapons. pistol gripped 12g, 9mm, 357mag, 1911 and a SAR3 ak all readily accessible. im always and currently looking for a "go to" pistol

great feed back. thanks guys and anymore opinons accepted

Lot's of good info on here daffy. When I sell someone a firearm I tell them these exact things people are telling you now. I don't know if you've had a concealed carry class or watched any police shootings, but most of your defense situations are going to be 15 feet or less. If a man is running at you at a full sprint at 10 yards he'll be on you before you can draw. What I'm trying to tell you is you need the most knock down power you can get. You're going to get about 2 shots off and you have to make them count. 2 shots from a 9 or 380 and they might get up. 2 shots from a .40 or .45 and they won't. When I try to sell a guys wife a .357 mag revolver to carry instead of a pistol with a slide they can't rack they get pissed. They say "But it only holds 5 rounds" who cares? You won't have time to empty a 20 round clip on someone.

Locked&Loaded wrote: I got out shot by a 13 yeard old girl.

jrockncash wrote:Is that mask only for ghosts or can fat guys with little weiners use it too?

im glad you mention revolvers. guns and ammo a few months ago did a count down of best home defence weapons. the revolver won first. why? because it required one hand to operate. the first step to home defence is call 9-1-1 (phone in one hand and gun in other) plus. hand it to your wife/gf and say take this. they only have to pull the trigger and last if you happen to get in a grapple/wounded the revolver will alow you to control the weapon.

two hands are required for pumping a shotgun, chambering a auto and two hands for holding a assult rifle

GroundSwatter wrote:If you are looking for a self defense round, why wouldn't knock down power be important to you? If some meth head or coke head breaks into your house, are you really that certain that misplaced shot from a .380 or 9mm is going to put him in shock and keep him from coming at you?

I honestly feel the philosophies of killing an animal and a person are the same. When you shoot, you want them to die and you want them to die fast. Sure 90% of the time, the perp will run off if shot at, but again, what if that guy is some wigged out meth head? Injured deer don't shoot back at you, but injured criminals do. This is why knock down power is so important, especially in a defense scenario.

I don't know how many pistols you own. If this is your only defense pistol, and you were between a 40, .357 sig, and 9mm, I would go with the 40. Its knock down coefficient is similar enough to a 45, scoring around a 10, and my only issue with it is just the snappy recoil. .357 sig scores about a 9 on the knockdown coefficient and the Ammo is too flipping expensive.

If you already have a 45 or a 40, then I would get the 9mm. In fact I'm going to probably buy a 9mm over Christmas for my wife. I figure I can have the 45 in my night stand and she can have the 9mm in her night stand, so between the two of us we'll have power and capacity.

If you are so concerned about a one shot stop why don't you own a 10mm? [/quote]

10mm is basically a beefed up 40 Cal and trust me when I say I've thought about it. The loads you buy from the store for 10mm don't do it justice. With factory loads, it performs only marginally better than the 40 Cal, KO score of 11, and the ammo is expensive. With the proper hand load, you can shoot a 200gr bullet at around 1600 ft/sec. This gives a KO score of 15, but I have never shot one and can only imagine what the recoil is like with that load.

I would love to own one, but I wouldn't use it as a primary defense gun simply b/c ammunition would cost an arm and a leg which makes it difficult to practice with it.

It's a fact that 70 percent of the people who purchase heavier tackle do so with the categorical I just lost a huge snook! Einstein Hairdo.The other 30 percent have either Tarpon Fever or are sporting a hand cramped into a claw from a deepwater grouper.

9mm vs 40 vs 45ACP...while they all have their merits the debate over which is better is like that of Ford vs Chevy vs Dodge in that it all comes down to personal preference. My personal preference is .45ACP or .40 as I like a big bullet headed towards any potential BG. 9mm is fun for practice as it has milder recoil and is cheaper to shoot, but when the SHTF I want something more substantial.

As far as the original intent of this thread goes, I have shot many Glock models and while they are dependable and accurate, they just do not fit my hands and I cannot stand the grip angle as I predominantly shoot 1911 pistols. The XD is my second choice as it has much better ergonomics than Glock and fully supports the round in .40 caliber.

One point of note- the device that holds a pistol's rounds is a MAGAZINE- not a clip! A clip is a device (like a stripper clip or something similar) that is used to hold rounds together for inserting into a non removable magazine well on a rifle.