If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Re: Is one hive witb AFB a death senetence to entire apiary?

Oh wow that's a bad situation.

We had an incident here when some immigrants decided to use drugs, as they were used to doing in their old country. But they got found out and educated / stood on by other beekeepers. Always a worry though.

Re: Is one hive witb AFB a death senetence to entire apiary?

Originally Posted by max2

Oldtimer " My method, burn everything. Problem solved, cheaper in the long run, this has always worked well. "
Burn everything meaning the complete hive ( I agree) or all hives in the yard ( I would find this excessive)
All my hives are numbered. When I extract I return the frames to the hive they came from. I clean my hive tool between each hive. After each inspection I " burn" the hive tool in metho.
I record where every frame comes from when I do splits. I sterilise equipment ( eg SHB traps) after washing if they go into a different hive....
We can reduce the risk but we will never eliminate it totally.

That sounds like way way way took much work. How can you take all these prophalictice measures and still get work done? Do you have AFB in your yards? If no then is there a lot of it locally?
With all the work required to get honey and/or keep bees healthy & alive while dealing with the "normal" pests/problems there is no way I'd keep bees if I had to*take the measured you describe. If AFB is that prevalent in your area then I'd say it is impossible to keep every little hive bit/piece sanitized.

Originally Posted by Oldtimer

Look at it this way. If you found a swarm hanging in a tree, but was told it was known to come from a hive infested with AFB, would you take that nice new hive you just bought, and spent the whole weekend assembling, painting, etc, and put that swarm in it? Would you risk it?

That's what shook swarming is. All you are saving is some bees KNOWN to have come from an AFB infested hive.

Yes, it's known to work, but yes, it's also known that it does not always work.

As an ex commercial beekeeper I've had to deal with AFB. My method, burn everything. Problem solved, cheaper in the long run, this has always worked well.

You make a good point. It is a debatable topic with no joyful aspects.
I'll not go back & forth with the shake methods-it would never end. Like a lot of things-what works for some may not for others.
I would certainly say that using an antibiotic for anything other than a preventative measure for having AFB spread is dangerous and a waste of money.
Personally, even though my hives seem to be under control, I'd like to get every bit of equipment I'm not using this winter fumigated. Next year I'd like to have it all in one out yard and have that with its own set of beekeeping equipment stored in a tote. Smoker, suit you name it. Then I could come and go without worrying about cross contamination.
This has become a depressing thread I must say.

Re: Is one hive witb AFB a death senetence to entire apiary?

Using terramycin not only masks the symptoms so you can't tell if you still have a problem, it makes them more susceptible to the disease because it kills off the microbes that protect them. Most countries don't allow you to use antibiotics, because they mask the symptoms they just require burning.

"The main brood diseases are American foul brood and European foul brood. The American foul brood is a disease requiring notification. No treatment options were available for the American foul brood and treatment with antibiotics is not allowed, as they do not kill the highly resistant spores. For American foul brood the destruction of infected colonies is compulsory. Also for the European Foul Brood there were no real treatment options. In some countries the use of antibiotics was permitted under certain circumstances, i.e. under veterinary supervision and applying long withdrawal periods. Therefore, usually the infected colonies were destroyed."

"We have demonstrated by both in vitro and in vivo studies that the LAB microbiota in A. mellifera inhibit one important honeybee pathogen, the bacterial brood pathogen Paenibacillus larvae that is the cause of the brood disease American foulbrood (AFB)..."

"Thus, our results strongly suggest that LAB linked to the honeybee crop have important implications for honeybee pathology, particularly for bacterial brood diseases such as AFB and EFB. Honeybees are considered to have only about a third of the innate immune genes compared to other insects. In addition to social defences that accrue to social insects, individual honeybees may also benefit from their LAB symbionts, which are probably of great importance in pathogen defence, possibly further reducing dependency on the innate immune system.

"In order to secure honeybee pollination services, A. mellifera beekeepers replace harvested honey by feeding sugar solutions, occasionally mixed with antibiotics for prophylactic control of honeybee-specific bacterial diseases of bee brood such as AFB and microsporidia. It is known that LAB antibiotic susceptibility varies. In vitro culturing of the 13 Apis individual LAB members with two antibiotics used in apiculture (oxytetracycline and tylosin) demonstrated high sensitivity of all to Tylosin, the most recently employed antibiotic within apicultural practices in the USA. Nevertheless, strains L. kunkeei Fhon2 and Lactobacillus Fhon13, Hma11, Hma8 and Hon2 showed resistance to oxytetracycline that may reflect the extended use of this antibiotic in apiculture or their long-term exposure to environmental microbes from the surrounding environment that produce similar substances. The negative effects on honeybee health from damaging the honey crop microbiota by the use of these antibiotics need to be investigated further."--Symbionts as Major Modulators of Insect Health: Lactic Acid Bacteria and Honeybees, Alejandra Vásquez, Eva Forsgren, Ingemar Fries, Robert J. Paxton, Emilie Flaberg, Laszlo Szekely, Tobias C. Olofsson

Re: Is one hive witb AFB a death senetence to entire apiary?

One case of AFB does not doom the whole apiary. It does need to addressed properly. Which means burning ALL of the frames, brood combs and honey combs. Doing so in a pit allows one to bury everything after the fire is out and making any honey unobtainable by bees.

Re: Is one hive witb AFB a death senetence to entire apiary?

NC also requires burning of frames, bees, comb etc. Unless one opts for fumigation. Frames can be sealed & frozen after the bees are croaked off. Boxes & other equipment must be sealed up until the equipment is delivered to NC State University. Frames containing honey are burned because they spores in honey cannot be penetrated reliably with the type of fumigation used (ethylene I believe).
My inspector allowed me to shake my first hive with AFB as a one time experiment. It is currently by itself in a field 8 miles from me and appears completely healthy after 13 months-still waiting to drive up & smell that distinctive odor but fingers crossed.
Honestly if I could somehow work out the logistics I'd be tempted next year to shake all my bees into some cheap boxes and get all my hive boxes, frames & whatever else fumigated and, once done, put them back into fumigated hives. This isn't possible for several reasons but , even with no current AFB symptoms, I'd feel better knowing my bee hives are not an epidemic waiting to happen.
When I had the one nucs this year that I felt was possible AFB positive I destroyed it but wanted to do something about the other 5 nucs in this yard. I researched antibiotics and saw that TM was shown to be ineffective due to resistance. That's why I ordered the Lincomycin. It was just a stab but no other hives have shown any issues YET???
It is an ominous feeling having had AFB. Sort of a doomsday for my beekeeping future waiting to drop the hammer.
I know, for myself, there is just no way I'll cook my hive tool every hive or sanitize the snout of my smoker for every hive, or my gloves and on. If it turns out to have spread again in my hives so be it. I was careful for a reasonable amount of time after seeing or suspecting it but I'm not going out every time thinking I have to get spore free before opening a hive. Just MOHO but there are too many places spores can hide & I can't think of all of them nor do I wish to.

Re: Is one hive witb AFB a death senetence to entire apiary?

Originally Posted by challenger

That sounds like way way way took much work. How can you take all these prophalictice measures and still get work done?

Yes it's a lot of work although you have taken what Max said and put it in your quote of me, as if I said it. I don't do all that stuff, and would prefer you remove that from the quote as people will get the wrong idea about me, thanks. As to Max, sounds like he has his reasons.
My method is to burn infected hives. I've never known any other method as none is allowed here, but would imagine that feeding antibiotics plus whatever other procedures are involved with that would have to be at least as much work. Could be wrong though. Few of my hives are ever fed syrup so feeding drugs would be extra time / cost.

Originally Posted by challenger

Do you have AFB in your yards? If no then is there a lot of it locally?

Been AFB free for around 2 years but found 2 cases in the last month.
A lot in the area? Just depends how you define that. There is one "rogue" beekeeper with weird theories about AFB, and therefore an ongoing AFB problem, who is a nuisance to other beekeepers, we have not been able to shut him down. I discovered that he put some bees within a short flight of one of my recent AFB cases but has now removed them. The other AFB case, likely down to the same guy, but I don't know. He is New Zealand's answer to Terrance Ingram but has a lot more hives.

Re: Is one hive witb AFB a death senetence to entire apiary?

"That sounds like way way way took much work. How can you take all these prophalictice measures and still get work done? Do you have AFB in your yards? If no then is there a lot of it locally?
With all the work required to get honey and/or keep bees healthy & alive while dealing with the "normal" pests/problems there is no way I'd keep bees if I had to*take the measured you describe. If AFB is that prevalent in your area then I'd say it is impossible to keep every little hive bit/piece sanitized.

I had AFB in my yard. A near neighbour had to destroy about 30 hives and I wish I could stop my bees playing with his bees and equipment
I find the processes I describe ( and indeed a few more things I do) simply part of a routine now.
Here in Queensland we don't have to feed our bees and we don't have Varroa so far and many of the jobs our friends in other parts of the world have to do we can avoid.
I absolutely agree that it is impossible to keep everything sanitized - my aim is simply to reduce the risk.

Challenger says " I'd like to get every bit of equipment I'm not using this winter fumigated. "
I'm not aware that there is a fumigant which would kill AFB?
Here only burning or Gamma Radiation will effectively deal with AFB.

When I discovered AFB in my yard some years back I too was very disapointed and considered my beekeeping future but there is life after AFB, indeed even with AFB altough I would not wish it on to anybody.

Re: Is one hive witb AFB a death senetence to entire apiary?

Michael Bush " Using terramycin not only masks the symptoms so you can't tell if you still have a problem, it makes them more susceptible to the disease because it kills off the microbes that protect them. Most countries don't allow you to use antibiotics, because they mask the symptoms they just require burning."
How long will it take before every beekeeper understnads this and acts accordingly?

Re: Is one hive witb AFB a death senetence to entire apiary?

Mark B "One case of AFB does not doom the whole apiary. It does need to addressed properly. Which means burning ALL of the frames, brood combs and honey combs. Doing so in a pit allows one to bury everything after the fire is out and making any honey unobtainable by bees. "
I have found that a hot fire will destroy all the honey and in my case there was no honey left to obtain by bees.I use the same pit to burn any suspect/old beegear.

Re: Is one hive witb AFB a death senetence to entire apiary?

Etholyn oxide fumigation under high pressure was somewhat a popular technique used to address AFB infections, a way to save the equipment. A friend of mine has a bunch of supers w/ ETO and AFB stenciled on some of his medium supers. Under pressure the ETO will kill spores. It is also carcinogenic for humans handling it. So, for the most part, the practice was abandoned. Leastwise the portable units in most of the Eastern US States.

Re: Is one hive witb AFB a death senetence to entire apiary?

Challenger, what precautions have you taken to sanitize your hive tool, smoker, veil and the like?
This is a good video on the subject, at about four minutes into it, (personally, I don't like the idea of prophylactic use of antibiotics for EFB or AFB)

LeeB
I try to learn from my mistakes, and from yours when you give me a heads up :)

Re: Is one hive witb AFB a death senetence to entire apiary?

Originally Posted by Lburou

Challenger, what precautions have you taken to sanitize your hive tool, smoker, veil and the like?
This is a good video on the subject, at about four minutes into it, (personally, I don't like the idea of prophylactic use of antibiotics for EFB or AFB)

Maybe your question was rhetorical? How does a hive of bees get infected from a veil? How does it get infected from a smoker or hive tool as far as that goes? My smoker and hive tool do not carry teaspoon sized clumps of honey from one hive to another and deposit them in the next hive. You must gave been being facetious.

Re: Is one hive witb AFB a death senetence to entire apiary?

Originally Posted by sqkcrk

Maybe your question was rhetorical? How does a hive of bees get infected from a veil? How does it get infected from a smoker or hive tool as far as that goes? My smoker and hive tool do not carry teaspoon sized clumps of honey from one hive to another and deposit them in the next hive. You must gave been being facetious.

Well the precautions suggested by the previous poster, not your reply, is an example of the personality type that beekeeping attracts. Now this is just my opinion/impression AND I may have taken the questions about the precautions I take as suggestions rather than an inquiry as to my hygienic practices, or lack thereof.
I've found that many beekeepers like to "contribute" to threads by posting their approach and/or methods used to handle challenges in beekeeping using a tone of superiority if you will. I'm being hypersensitive here just to try and make my point.
I've posted in this thread that I am not willing to continue beekeeping if I have to sanitize all of my bee gear after going into every hive as some suggested. To me it just wouldn't be worth staying in beekeeping if this is what I had to do. While I was dealing with a real or suspected AFB hive I did try to burn my hive tool between inspecting boxes and I even wore rubber gloves a time or two and used a propane torch on my smoker. After taking these basic precautions I felt that was as far as I was going to go. Once I didn't see any AFB symptoms in any of my hives I went back to doing nothing.
The more I thought about it the idea behind "bubble boy beekeeping" became less logical. I know that if AFB is suspected in any of my hives I have to do my best to keep it contained before, hopefully, eliminating it. Beyond that it is a lost cause due to the fact that I am constantly moving hives, frames, tops, bottoms and on between hives and hive locations. If I've spread AFB to any other colonies by these practices then it is my fault and I'll deal with it.
I may have other, "experts" look down their nose at my management methods but that seems to be more of a problem for them than it is for me.
Soooo many beekeepers love to point out how their methods/practices are the one and only way to keep bees. These same folk love to state with seemingly great authority how the ways of others are so blatantly wrong.
I find it very interesting that the majority of these omnipotent beekeepers have been keeping bees for 5 & fewer years???
I am more than happy to abandon any of my practices and try another if I see or feel there is a chance that switching make things better and I do indeed learn by my mistakes and the mistakes of others.
This is a challenging effort to say the least and being unable to veer off a chosen path is a bad approach IMOHO.

Re: Is one hive witb AFB a death senetence to entire apiary?

IMO if bees robbed the AFB colony they spread the disease. All hives in a range from approx 3-4 km are in danger. An outbreak can come anytime, if not this year, the next year or later. As soon as there are enough spores per cell there is an AFB outbreak. I would say, the whole bee yard has now a big problem.

There are only two ways to solve the problem; fire or radiation. Antibiotics will hide the problem but it will come back very soon even worse.