Pavanaja,
Thanks for the explaining the outcome of Tulu Workshops and Christ
University partnership.
While you take a microscopic view of the recent activity and ask me to be
optimistic, I would like to be realistic after taking a macroscopic view on
past activities.
Please see
http://cis-india.org/openness/blog/launch-of-assamese-wikipedia-education-program
where active editors going from 20 to 20 over a period of 6 months is
called 45% growth.
The real state of Assamese Wikipedia now after two years can be seen at
http://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/TablesWikipediaAS.htm
Here is what Asaf from WMF has to say on this:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2013-2014_round2/The_Centre_for_Internet_and_Society/Proposal_form#Q2a
For a tiny Wikipedia like Assamese, it's possible the temporary editing
boost leading to a *doubling* of its size by article count and
*tripling*of its size by contents was itself the seed of future
growth, as the
bootstrapping of a Wikipedia is also slow and not self-sustaining work,
until that moment when a virtuous cycle kicks in and the usefulness of the
resource begins attracting new editors organically. We have perhaps not
reached that moment with Assamese, and as you point out, the program is
implicitly judged to be less valuable than other opportunities and has thus
been discontinued.
If this is the case of Assamese Wikipedia which is already out of incubator
and that once had a very small but dedicated community, then what is CIS
doing working with projects in incubator?
Even after CIS working for a year on Konkani Wikipedia, it is not out of
incubator.
But, it seems you have started the Tulu plan even before the FDC grant is
approved.
Your FDC proposal staff assessment also notes as follows:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:APG/Proposals/2013-2014_round2/The_Centre_for_Internet_and_Society/Staff_proposal_assessment
CIS’s strategy for its stand-alone projects may not be the most effective
for the language communities each project is targeting, given that projects
other than Wikipedia (for example, Wikisource or Wiktionary) may be more
effective entry-points for working with language communities like Tulu or
Santali.
To quote Asaf from WMF again:
The *sine qua non* of most programs is a core of self-motivating active
editors... Where that core doesn't exist, it's very hard to deploy any
other type of program...
Tulu has a population around 2 million speakers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulu_language
You can find a realistic estimate of Editors per million speakers here:
http://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/Sitemap.htm
For the Indian landscape, Malayalam has around 3 editors (those who make 5+
edits every month) per million and it is the highest (you need to ignore
the highly extrapolated value for Sanskrit owing to its tiny population and
institutional support). It goes down until 0.2 editors per million for
Hindi. To put it in plain words, for every 50 lakh people speaking Hindi,
we can hope to get 1 editor making 5+ edits. This trend has been consistent
over the years and I don't expect drastic change occurring in the near
future unless there is a huge change in socio-economic scenarios.
If you look for languages similar to Tulu, Nepal Bhasa comes close.
You can check the activity for their Wikipedia at
http://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/TablesWikipediaNEW.htm
(to be continued.. ) :)
Ravi
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(Continued from
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/2014-May/011389.html )
Hang on !
While all these stats highlight the people who make 5+ edits, the real
strength of any Wikipedia is people who make 100+, 1000+, 2500+ edits per
month. Only those Wikipedias which manage to nurture a continuous supply of
such editors can progress while keeping in balance editors who go inactive
periodically or forever.
Let's take the case of Tamil Wikipedia.
(Everyone should excuse me quoting Tamil Wikipedia often. It is my home
Wikipedia and where have I exclusively worked for many years. I do watch
how other Wikipedias work and will try my best to showcase case studies
from as many Wikipedias possible. If you know better case studies, please
feel free to add to the discussion)
Please check the page
https://ta.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:cms
Since February 2013, we are keeping track of people who make 100+, 250+ and
1000+ edits every month.
So far, in the last 15 months alone, we have
100+ edits - 30 contributors
250+ edits - 41 contributors
1000+ editors - 13 contributors
Many of these people hit these milestones often.
With so many in the pool, the most number of contributors who have made
100+ in a single month is 34 which happened in January 2014.
http://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/TablesWikipediaTA.htm
The number of new articles created, daily edits all depend on this most
active editor count.
For example, check the distribution of article edits in following three
languages
http://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/TablesWikipediaDE.htm#editdistribution
http://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/TablesWikipediaEN.htm#editdistribution
http://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/TablesWikipediaML.htm#editdistribution
http://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/TablesWikipediaTA.htm#editdistribution
Almost universally, the trend of 1-2% editors making 80% of edits is
prevalent.
And let us see the kind of effort these people put in.
During May 2012, just for fun, I asked my fellow Tamil Wikipedians this
simple question:
https://ta.wikipedia.org/s/qbz
How many hours per week do you spend on activities related to Tamil
Wikipedia? (Includes time to collect references)
14 people answered and they collectively spent 294 working hours per week.
Extrapolating for the stats that month, we found that we spend at least
400+ working hours every week collectively improving Tamil Wikipedia.
That is equivalent to employing 10 full time staff just to keep editing
Tamil Wikipedia !
And after all this we don't even feel we are anywhere near a very useful
and comprehensive encyclopedia. There is lot of work to be done yet.
**
CIS is liberal in throwing lot of jargons at the community. Say for
example, Needs assessment, Coordination problem, etc.,
For a difference, I would like to ask them:
* Have you ever done a feasibility study for the chances of having a high
quality Wikipedia led by active community before engaging in language
community plan? Some of the key factors that determined the selection of
languages areas as listed at
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/India_Access_To_Knowledge/Draft_Work_plan_July_2014_-_June_2015#Language_Area_Work_Plans
don't talk about this.
That is why I question the sanity of engaging with incubator projects like
Tulu.
* Are your plans creative enough, big enough to capture and nurture the
most active contributors? Without such contributors all efforts will remain
one-off and inorganic. That is why I question the effectiveness of paid
physical outreach you engage so much. Physical outreach by volunteers can
be equally ineffective. But it serves other purposes like community
leadership building, brand building etc., and not direct editor recruitment.
* What is the lifetime value of one such contributor? In other words, is
your spending worth the results you produce?
(to be continued.. ) :)
Ravi
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(Continued from
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/2014-May/011390.html )
OK, where were we :)
Ah yes, I was asking about the outcome of CIS's work in general in Kannada
Wikipedia.
I wanted to hear the story from the community as most of the reports by CIS
are unilateral. So, CIS or its partners are under no obligation to answer
here. But, as Pavanaja had mentioned that he had answered my questions, I
would like to clarify that some of my concerns remain unanswered.
* What is the direct impact of numerous Kannada outreach sessions done?
As tabulated at
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/India_Access_To_Knowledge/Draft_Work_plan_July_2014_-_June_2015/Kannada#Tangible_Impact
you have even exceeded the dream target for number of outreach sessions
even 6 months in advance ! I wonder why this is even set as a target when
it is documented to have negligible value by WMF.
Please also go through Wikimedia evaluation portal
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Programs:Evaluation_portal
where more such programs are evaluated and best practices are shared.
* Regarding Christ University partnership, I would like to have few
clarifications.
In this mail thread, you have written as follows:
//I have personally interacted with many students. There are quite a good
number of students who are passionate about enriching Kannada language and
bringing latest knowledge into Kannada by way of adding articles to Kannada
Wikipedia. Nurturing those students will help not only Kannada Wikipedia
but also Kannada language and people in general. Again, I would emphasis,
let us be optimistic. //
Whereas at
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/India_Access_To_Knowledge/Draft_Work_plan_July_2014_-_June_2015/Kannada#Tangible_Impact
it is documented as follows:
Retaining these as active editors will be a difficult task. Writing
article on Wikipedia was a compulsory activity for the students. Only a
small percentage of these students have realised the importance of writing
on Wikipedia and promised to continue editing Wikipedia.
Both are official statements from CIS and are contradicting each other. At
least, the optimism shared :)
In this context, I have few issues:
* Enrolling students compulsorily is a problem that is documented already
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:India_Education_Program/Analysis/Independent_Report_from_Tory_Read#The_Foundation_Makes_the_Wikipedia_Assignment_Mandatory
* All the upward pointing graphs at
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/India_Access_To_Knowledge/Draft_Work_plan_July_2014_-_June_2015/Kannada#Tangible_Impact
can mislead the FDC as they don't take into account the project returning
to natural growth rates afterwards.
* Similar spike and fall is also seen at Hindi Wikipedia
http://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/TablesWikipediaHI.htm
I assume this could be an effect of the Christ University partnership too
as
http://cis-india.org/openness/blog/cis-a2k-mou-christ-university
says 800 students studying Hindi are also enrolled in this project.
Is the Hindi community kept in loop about this effort?
Please note that engaging the local community in planning is a recommended
best practice as explained at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:India_Education_Program/Analysis/Independent_Report_from_Tory_Read#Engage_the_Global_Wikipedia_Community_as_a_Partner_in_Planning
Where it also notes
A pilot with more than 1,000 students will result in an unmanageable
amount of new material for a finite editor community to monitor
If 1000 students is a problem for the gigantic English community, how is
the relatively smaller Hindi Wikipedia handling 800 students?
How is Kannada Wikipedia handling 600 students?
This is especially important as unlike Pune education program, we don't
have campus ambassadors, online ambassadors and the entire work load is on
the community or the professors (if they are helping).
* Is there any data available regarding the quality of content added like
the one available at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:India_Education_Program/Analysis/Independent_Report_from_Tory_Read#What_the_Data_Say
Given that most of the Indic Wiki communities are still reeling from the
work load of Google Translation project,
how equipped are the communities to engage these students, clean up and
nurture them in to active contributors?
* Is CIS engaging in this kind of high volume education program because its
previous outings with voluntary enrollment of students did not produce
sufficient results?
For example,
Here are the reports about Assamese and Odia Wikipedia education programs:
http://cis-india.org/openness/blog/odia-wikipedia-education-program-iimc-dhenkanal(12
stubs out of a 3 month program)
http://cis-india.org/openness/blog/launch-of-assamese-wikipedia-education-program(No
clue about results)
And that's all for now !
Ravi
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To

As a sysop, significant contributor and presently an avid observer on
Kannada Wikipedia, I can say that it is true that the user activity has
returned to pre-education programme levels within a month or faster than
that. In fact, there has not been considerable increase in quality or
momentum on par with organic growth despite CIS shelling close to 17 Lakh
rupees (correct me if I'm wrong) - much of it constituting a percentage of
Dr. U B Pavanaja's salary at CIS.
There have been tens of such events being announced in a nutshell and
carried out without definitive impact.
What is more concerning is that the media reports (which is quite easy to
get in this part of the world) being used to cover up the lack of
definitive impact.
Perhaps we should hear more from the fellow Wikimedians who're neutral and
friends on Kannada Wikipedia mailing list who're neutral to assess the
actual impact than from CIS's partners (Christ College as on this thread,
for instance).
On 20 May 2014 09:58, sankarshan foss.mailingli...@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 9:31 AM, Pavanaja U B
pavan...@vishvakannada.com wrote:
The very first email in this thread by Ravi had two main queries –one was
about Tulu Wikipedia workshop and another one about Christ University
project. I have answered both of them. Since both questions were asked in
the same email, I answered both of them in same reply mail. Vikram also
answered about the Christ University project. Complete report of CIS-A2K
activities and outcome is available on meta and I am sure all the people
who
have been active in this thread have thoroughly gone through them. I
don’t
think we will be gaining anything more by doing further hair-splitting on
this.
I am not entirely sure that the above is a correct summary of things.
If
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/2014-May/011351.html
is the first email on the thread (from Ravishankar), then the points
raised were:
[+] Section 1.3 of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2013-10-02/News_and_notes
provides a set of observations in the form of Lessons Learned
[+] Ravishankar's point is that although the lessons were recorded,
there are more instances where similar has occurred and lessons have
not been implemented. To quote from that email Yet, CIS seems to be
repeating sich negligible impact outreach programs many times in March
and April 2014. This includes Tulu workshops where there is active
editor community at all.
I am not sure whether than phrase Tulu workshops where there is
active editor community at all was meant to read as no active editor
community at all. Since no clarification or, amendments were
provided, that line is kept dangling - but the reference to Tulu does
not obvious ask for stats.
[+] The mail thereafter goes to cite
http://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/TablesWikipediaKN.htm which is a more
broad update of the status/stats for Kannada and positions this in
contrast to a news article
http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-national/tp-karnataka/wikipedia-taps-students-for-kannada-content/article5824580.ece
.
The objective for the comparison is to provide data for the assertion
that when you look at Kannada Wikipedia stats, the user activity has
returned to pre-education programme levels within a month.
In short, the original email, if that is the first on this thread,
neither asked about Tulu and nor did it ask about the Christ
University project.
--
Hari Prasad Nadig
http://hpnadig.net
http://twitter.com/hpnadig
http://flickr.com/hpnadig
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Hi HPN,
On 21 May 2014 08:21, Hari Prasad Nadig hpna...@gmail.com wrote:
Perhaps we should hear more from the fellow Wikimedians who're neutral and
friends on Kannada Wikipedia mailing list who're neutral to assess the
actual impact than from CIS's partners (Christ College as on this thread,
for instance).
It is good that the Wikipedia community (of which I am a part) is
trying to come up with metrics to assess contributions of a paid
organisation and separating those of the volunteers so that due credit
is given to all contributing entities. I had mentioned this here [1].
While CIS has an MoU with Christ Univ, I was speaking up as a person
interested in the educational angle and not as a signatory of an MoU
(my work with CU is on a consultancy basis as an educational
technology consultant which means that I am trying to find ways to
improve the learning of the students). AFAIK none of CIS's partners
have spoken up so your statement in this regard is not valid.
Any project needs some time to stabilise itself. And there are times
when we need to think long term vs short term and strategy towards a
project will automatically vary. I think the community needs to start
asking productive questions so that Wikipedia and its sister projects
develop.
The question of monthly compensation that the A2K employees are taking
home from the WM funds is a strong question and the organisation will
have to justify this using reliable metrics.
Thanks
Vikram
[1] http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/2014-April/011081.html
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Dear Ansuman,
Please go through the thread fully. Ravi asked a question about Tulu and I
answered that.
Regarding your statement that the stats are overall from 2007 and not for
one month only - Please read my email carefully. The first stats, ie, total
147 articles is for the period 2007 to March 2014. The current figure that I
mentioned is 284. This growth happened in just one month as I already wrote.
Regards,
Pavanaja
From: wikimediaindia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org
[mailto:wikimediaindia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of ansuman
Sent: 18 May 2014 21:06
To: Wikimedia India Community list
Subject: Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Outcome of CIS work in Kannada Wikipedia
The Subject line says Outcome of CIS work in Kannada Wikipedia. Why the
stats for Tulu ?
No wonder, they always try to cover up with something else!!!
Anyway in the stats, those numbers are overall from 2007, not just one
month's.
Ansuman
On 18 May 2014 20:45, Srikanth Ramakrishnan rsrikant...@gmail.com wrote:
Editors with 10 edit count?
That's nothing great. Half of them might have edited from the workshop
itself and then disappeared. Also, edit counts are never considered a good
measure of success.
Are there any real metrics being used?
On May 18, 2014 7:00 PM, Pavanaja U B pavan...@vishvakannada.com wrote:
Dear Ravi,
1.Tulu Wikipedia outreach programs and outcome:
Please look at the work plan here and the stats mentioned -
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/India_Access_To_Knowledge/Draft_Work_plan_Ju
ly_2014_-_June_2015/Making_the_Tulu_Wikipedia_Live.
Pay little attention to these numbers (excerpt from the work-plan above)-
The current stats, as of March 2014 stands like this:
. 147 articles including categories, templates, and talk pages.
. 31 total number of editors; including those who have done just one
edit.
. 8 editors with more than 10 edit counts.
Now please take a look at the stats at this page -
http://tools.wmflabs.org/pathoschild-contrib/catanalysis/index.php?title=Wp%
2Ftcy
http://tools.wmflabs.org/pathoschild-contrib/catanalysis/index.php?title=Wp
%2Ftcycat=0wiki=incubatorwikilistpages=on#distribution_201404
cat=0wiki=incubatorwikilistpages=on#distribution_201404. I am extracting
the same data for current -
. 284 articles including categories, templates, and talk pages.
. 41 total number of editors; including those who have done just one
edit.
. 18 editors with more than 10 edit counts.
These figures definitely point to the fact that the workshops are not wasted
efforts. These changes have happened in just one month. In the stats page
you may also notice that Tulu Wikipedia was almost dormant from Sep 2009
till April 2014 with some occasional activity spikes in between. Let us hope
the new set of editors who have come in will actively keep contributing to
Tulu Wikipedia. Optimism is not a bad idea after all.
2. Wikipedia in UG education program at Christ University Bangalore:
It is true that a spike can be seen in the stats for Kannada Wikipedia. But
the program will be continuing this year also. Students will continue to
write for Kannada Wikipedia. This academic year they will also add content
to Kannada Wikisource. I have personally interacted with many students.
There are quite a good number of students who are passionate about enriching
Kannada language and bringing latest knowledge into Kannada by way of adding
articles to Kannada Wikipedia. Nurturing those students will help not only
Kannada Wikipedia but also Kannada language and people in general. Again, I
would emphasis, let us be optimistic.
Thanks and regards,
Pavanaja
From: wikimediaindia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org
[mailto:wikimediaindia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of
Ravishankar
Sent: 17 May 2014 16:40
To: Wikimedia India Community list
Subject: [Wikimediaindia-l] Outcome of CIS work in Kannada Wikipedia
MarHey,
Any community member here from Kannada Wikipedia?
I would like to understand the outcome of CIS work there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2013-10-02/News_a
nd_notes
lists one of the lessons learned as follows:
//Single-session, general-audience outreach has negligible impact everywhere
(for example, just giving a single talk about Wikipedia to whoever shows
up-the conversion rate to editors is tiny, and yet we keep doing it.//
(Do give a full read of that whole section 1.3 Lessons learned)
Yet, CIS seems to be repeating sich negligible impact outreach programs many
times in March and April 2014. This includes Tulu workshops where there is
active editor community at all.
To quote Asaf again:
//So just what has the Foundation learned about the criteria for funding
successful activities? Bartov first talked about a fundamental prerequisite:
The sine qua non of most programs is a core of self-motivating active
editors. Most of the things you want to do

Dear Srikanth,
Tulu Wikipedia is in incubator. The community is very small now. The articles
did not come just in one day of the workshop. They are adding articles daily
after the workshop. You can check this page -
https://incubator.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:RecentChanges
https://incubator.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:RecentChangeslimit=500days=30rc-testwiki-project=prc-testwiki-code=tcytranslations=noaction
limit=500days=30rc-testwiki-project=prc-testwiki-code=tcytranslations=noaction
Regards,
Pavanaja
From: wikimediaindia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org
[mailto:wikimediaindia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Srikanth
Ramakrishnan
Sent: 18 May 2014 20:45
To: India public list
Subject: Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Outcome of CIS work in Kannada Wikipedia
Editors with 10 edit count?
That's nothing great. Half of them might have edited from the workshop itself
and then disappeared. Also, edit counts are never considered a good measure of
success.
Are there any real metrics being used?
On May 18, 2014 7:00 PM, Pavanaja U B pavan...@vishvakannada.com wrote:
Dear Ravi,
1.Tulu Wikipedia outreach programs and outcome:
Please look at the work plan here and the stats mentioned –
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/India_Access_To_Knowledge/Draft_Work_plan_July_2014_-_June_2015/Making_the_Tulu_Wikipedia_Live.
Pay little attention to these numbers (excerpt from the work-plan above)-
The current stats, as of March 2014 stands like this:
· 147 articles including categories, templates, and talk pages.
· 31 total number of editors; including those who have done just one
edit.
· 8 editors with more than 10 edit counts.
Now please take a look at the stats at this page -
http://tools.wmflabs.org/pathoschild-contrib/catanalysis/index.php?title=Wp%2Ftcy
http://tools.wmflabs.org/pathoschild-contrib/catanalysis/index.php?title=Wp%2Ftcycat=0wiki=incubatorwikilistpages=on#distribution_201404
cat=0wiki=incubatorwikilistpages=on#distribution_201404. I am extracting
the same data for current –
· 284 articles including categories, templates, and talk pages.
· 41 total number of editors; including those who have done just one
edit.
· 18 editors with more than 10 edit counts.
These figures definitely point to the fact that the workshops are not wasted
efforts. These changes have happened in just one month. In the stats page you
may also notice that Tulu Wikipedia was almost dormant from Sep 2009 till
April 2014 with some occasional activity spikes in between. Let us hope the new
set of editors who have come in will actively keep contributing to Tulu
Wikipedia. Optimism is not a bad idea after all.
2. Wikipedia in UG education program at Christ University Bangalore:
It is true that a spike can be seen in the stats for Kannada Wikipedia. But the
program will be continuing this year also. Students will continue to write for
Kannada Wikipedia. This academic year they will also add content to Kannada
Wikisource. I have personally interacted with many students. There are quite a
good number of students who are passionate about enriching Kannada language and
bringing latest knowledge into Kannada by way of adding articles to Kannada
Wikipedia. Nurturing those students will help not only Kannada Wikipedia but
also Kannada language and people in general. Again, I would emphasis, let us be
optimistic.
Thanks and regards,
Pavanaja
From: wikimediaindia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org
[mailto:wikimediaindia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Ravishankar
Sent: 17 May 2014 16:40
To: Wikimedia India Community list
Subject: [Wikimediaindia-l] Outcome of CIS work in Kannada Wikipedia
MarHey,
Any community member here from Kannada Wikipedia?
I would like to understand the outcome of CIS work there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2013-10-02/News_and_notes
lists one of the lessons learned as follows:
//Single-session, general-audience outreach has negligible impact everywhere
(for example, just giving a single talk about Wikipedia to whoever shows up—the
conversion rate to editors is tiny, and yet we keep doing it.//
(Do give a full read of that whole section 1.3 Lessons learned)
Yet, CIS seems to be repeating sich negligible impact outreach programs many
times in March and April 2014. This includes Tulu workshops where there is
active editor community at all.
To quote Asaf again:
//So just what has the Foundation learned about the criteria for funding
successful activities? Bartov first talked about a fundamental prerequisite:
The sine qua non of most programs is a core of self-motivating active editors.
Most of the things you want to do, most of the things chapters in the global
north are doing, depend on this core. It can be as small as four or five
people, but those people need to be actual active editors ... who

//Yet, CIS seems to be repeating sich negligible impact outreach programs
many times in March and April 2014. This includes Tulu workshops where
there is active editor community at all. //
This is Ravi's original statement.
He did not ask for stats on Tulu.
As for Tulu being small, I misread your post. I thought you were giving
stats for Kannada.
Even still, as Ansuman said, those are stats for 7 years.
Again, no mention of metrics on Kannada. Straight to Tulu.
Tulu might be incubator, might have great editors, which is great, but to
this thread it is irrelevant.
Ravi has explicitly asked for metrics and stats on Kannada, it would be
nice if someone could actually give some info on that instead of dilly
dallying around.
On 19 May 2014 12:02, Pavanaja U B pavan...@vishvakannada.com wrote:
Dear Ansuman,
Please go through the thread fully. Ravi asked a question about Tulu and I
answered that.
Regarding your statement that the stats are overall from 2007 and not for
one month only – Please read my email carefully. The first stats, ie, total
147 articles is for the period 2007 to March 2014. The current figure that
I mentioned is 284. This growth happened in just one month as I already
wrote.
Regards,
Pavanaja
*From:* wikimediaindia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:
wikimediaindia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] *On Behalf Of *ansuman
*Sent:* 18 May 2014 21:06
*To:* Wikimedia India Community list
*Subject:* Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Outcome of CIS work in Kannada Wikipedia
The Subject line says Outcome of CIS work in Kannada Wikipedia. Why the
stats for Tulu ?
No wonder, they always try to cover up with something else!!!
Anyway in the stats, those numbers are overall from 2007, not just one
month's.
Ansuman
On 18 May 2014 20:45, Srikanth Ramakrishnan rsrikant...@gmail.com wrote:
Editors with 10 edit count?
That's nothing great. Half of them might have edited from the workshop
itself and then disappeared. Also, edit counts are never considered a good
measure of success.
Are there any real metrics being used?
On May 18, 2014 7:00 PM, Pavanaja U B pavan...@vishvakannada.com
wrote:
Dear Ravi,
1.Tulu Wikipedia outreach programs and outcome:
Please look at the work plan here and the stats mentioned –
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/India_Access_To_Knowledge/Draft_Work_plan_July_2014_-_June_2015/Making_the_Tulu_Wikipedia_Live.
Pay little attention to these numbers (excerpt from the work-plan above)-
The current stats, as of March 2014 stands like this:
· 147 articles including categories, templates, and talk pages.
· 31 total number of editors; including those who have done just
one edit.
· 8 editors with more than 10 edit counts.
Now please take a look at the stats at this page -
http://tools.wmflabs.org/pathoschild-contrib/catanalysis/index.php?title=Wp%2Ftcycat=0wiki=incubatorwikilistpages=on#distribution_201404.
I am extracting the same data for current –
· 284 articles including categories, templates, and talk pages.
· 41 total number of editors; including those who have done just
one edit.
· 18 editors with more than 10 edit counts.
These figures definitely point to the fact that the workshops are not
wasted efforts. These changes have happened in just one month. In the stats
page you may also notice that Tulu Wikipedia was almost dormant from Sep
2009 till April 2014 with some occasional activity spikes in between. Let
us hope the new set of editors who have come in will actively keep
contributing to Tulu Wikipedia. Optimism is not a bad idea after all.
2. Wikipedia in UG education program at Christ University Bangalore:
It is true that a spike can be seen in the stats for Kannada Wikipedia.
But the program will be continuing this year also. Students will continue
to write for Kannada Wikipedia. This academic year they will also add
content to Kannada Wikisource. I have personally interacted with many
students. There are quite a good number of students who are passionate
about enriching Kannada language and bringing latest knowledge into Kannada
by way of adding articles to Kannada Wikipedia. Nurturing those students
will help not only Kannada Wikipedia but also Kannada language and people
in general. Again, I would emphasis, let us be optimistic.
Thanks and regards,
Pavanaja
*From:* wikimediaindia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:
wikimediaindia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] *On Behalf Of *Ravishankar
*Sent:* 17 May 2014 16:40
*To:* Wikimedia India Community list
*Subject:* [Wikimediaindia-l] Outcome of CIS work in Kannada Wikipedia
MarHey,
Any community member here from Kannada Wikipedia?
I would like to understand the outcome of CIS work there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2013-10-02/News_and_notes
lists one of the lessons learned as follows:
//Single-session, general

Sorry, I may be getting this wrong or missing something.
I do not see any query from Ravi regarding Tulu stats, did I miss something?
Ravi, could you clarify as well please.
Pavanaja, I am sorry, again I might be wrong in my understanding here as
well on your abilities. You are free to correct me, please share your
profile which I can read through if you do not mind.
Just was wondering from your email domain name (vishvakannada), that I
thought you are an expert on Kannada. Is Tulu also something that comes
under the same remit. Again, I am a layman, sorry if I am getting it wrong
and you are free to correct my wrong understanding.
Abhi
From: wikimediaindia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org
[mailto:wikimediaindia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Pavanaja
U B
Sent: Monday, May 19, 2014 12:03 PM
To: 'Wikimedia India Community list'
Subject: Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Outcome of CIS work in Kannada Wikipedia
Dear Ansuman,
Please go through the thread fully. Ravi asked a question about Tulu and I
answered that.
Regarding your statement that the stats are overall from 2007 and not for
one month only - Please read my email carefully. The first stats, ie, total
147 articles is for the period 2007 to March 2014. The current figure that I
mentioned is 284. This growth happened in just one month as I already wrote.
Regards,
Pavanaja
From: wikimediaindia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org
mailto:wikimediaindia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org
[mailto:wikimediaindia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of ansuman
Sent: 18 May 2014 21:06
To: Wikimedia India Community list
Subject: Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Outcome of CIS work in Kannada Wikipedia
The Subject line says Outcome of CIS work in Kannada Wikipedia. Why the
stats for Tulu ?
No wonder, they always try to cover up with something else!!!
Anyway in the stats, those numbers are overall from 2007, not just one
month's.
Ansuman
On 18 May 2014 20:45, Srikanth Ramakrishnan rsrikant...@gmail.com
mailto:rsrikant...@gmail.com wrote:
Editors with 10 edit count?
That's nothing great. Half of them might have edited from the workshop
itself and then disappeared. Also, edit counts are never considered a good
measure of success.
Are there any real metrics being used?
On May 18, 2014 7:00 PM, Pavanaja U B pavan...@vishvakannada.com
mailto:pavan...@vishvakannada.com wrote:
Dear Ravi,
1.Tulu Wikipedia outreach programs and outcome:
Please look at the work plan here and the stats mentioned -
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/India_Access_To_Knowledge/Draft_Work_plan_Ju
ly_2014_-_June_2015/Making_the_Tulu_Wikipedia_Live.
Pay little attention to these numbers (excerpt from the work-plan above)-
The current stats, as of March 2014 stands like this:
* 147 articles including categories, templates, and talk pages.
* 31 total number of editors; including those who have done just one
edit.
* 8 editors with more than 10 edit counts.
Now please take a look at the stats at this page -
http://tools.wmflabs.org/pathoschild-contrib/catanalysis/index.php?title=Wp%
2Ftcy
http://tools.wmflabs.org/pathoschild-contrib/catanalysis/index.php?title=Wp
%2Ftcycat=0wiki=incubatorwikilistpages=on#distribution_201404
cat=0wiki=incubatorwikilistpages=on#distribution_201404. I am extracting
the same data for current -
* 284 articles including categories, templates, and talk pages.
* 41 total number of editors; including those who have done just one
edit.
* 18 editors with more than 10 edit counts.
These figures definitely point to the fact that the workshops are not wasted
efforts. These changes have happened in just one month. In the stats page
you may also notice that Tulu Wikipedia was almost dormant from Sep 2009
till April 2014 with some occasional activity spikes in between. Let us hope
the new set of editors who have come in will actively keep contributing to
Tulu Wikipedia. Optimism is not a bad idea after all.
2. Wikipedia in UG education program at Christ University Bangalore:
It is true that a spike can be seen in the stats for Kannada Wikipedia. But
the program will be continuing this year also. Students will continue to
write for Kannada Wikipedia. This academic year they will also add content
to Kannada Wikisource. I have personally interacted with many students.
There are quite a good number of students who are passionate about enriching
Kannada language and bringing latest knowledge into Kannada by way of adding
articles to Kannada Wikipedia. Nurturing those students will help not only
Kannada Wikipedia but also Kannada language and people in general. Again, I
would emphasis, let us be optimistic.
Thanks and regards,
Pavanaja
From: wikimediaindia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org
mailto:wikimediaindia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org
[mailto:wikimediaindia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org
mailto:wikimediaindia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org

Tulu is a language with roughly 2 million speakers that is used on the West
Coast of Karnataka and North Kerala, around Mangalore to kasargod and a few
other coastal spots.
On 19 May 2014 12:52, Abhilash S Unni abhilashu...@gmail.com wrote:
Sorry, I may be getting this wrong or missing something.
I do not see any query from Ravi regarding Tulu stats, did I miss
something?
Ravi, could you clarify as well please.
Pavanaja, I am sorry, again I might be wrong in my understanding here as
well on your abilities. You are free to correct me, please share your
profile which I can read through if you do not mind.
Just was wondering from your email domain name (vishvakannada), that I
thought you are an expert on Kannada. Is Tulu also something that comes
under the same remit. Again, I am a layman, sorry if I am getting it wrong
and you are free to correct my wrong understanding.
Abhi
*From:* wikimediaindia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:
wikimediaindia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] *On Behalf Of *Pavanaja U B
*Sent:* Monday, May 19, 2014 12:03 PM
*To:* 'Wikimedia India Community list'
*Subject:* Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Outcome of CIS work in Kannada Wikipedia
Dear Ansuman,
Please go through the thread fully. Ravi asked a question about Tulu and I
answered that.
Regarding your statement that the stats are overall from 2007 and not for
one month only – Please read my email carefully. The first stats, ie, total
147 articles is for the period 2007 to March 2014. The current figure that
I mentioned is 284. This growth happened in just one month as I already
wrote.
Regards,
Pavanaja
*From:* wikimediaindia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [
mailto:wikimediaindia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.orgwikimediaindia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org]
*On Behalf Of *ansuman
*Sent:* 18 May 2014 21:06
*To:* Wikimedia India Community list
*Subject:* Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Outcome of CIS work in Kannada Wikipedia
The Subject line says Outcome of CIS work in Kannada Wikipedia. Why the
stats for Tulu ?
No wonder, they always try to cover up with something else!!!
Anyway in the stats, those numbers are overall from 2007, not just one
month's.
Ansuman
On 18 May 2014 20:45, Srikanth Ramakrishnan rsrikant...@gmail.com wrote:
Editors with 10 edit count?
That's nothing great. Half of them might have edited from the workshop
itself and then disappeared. Also, edit counts are never considered a good
measure of success.
Are there any real metrics being used?
On May 18, 2014 7:00 PM, Pavanaja U B pavan...@vishvakannada.com
wrote:
Dear Ravi,
1.Tulu Wikipedia outreach programs and outcome:
Please look at the work plan here and the stats mentioned –
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/India_Access_To_Knowledge/Draft_Work_plan_July_2014_-_June_2015/Making_the_Tulu_Wikipedia_Live.
Pay little attention to these numbers (excerpt from the work-plan above)-
The current stats, as of March 2014 stands like this:
· 147 articles including categories, templates, and talk pages.
· 31 total number of editors; including those who have done just
one edit.
· 8 editors with more than 10 edit counts.
Now please take a look at the stats at this page -
http://tools.wmflabs.org/pathoschild-contrib/catanalysis/index.php?title=Wp%2Ftcycat=0wiki=incubatorwikilistpages=on#distribution_201404.
I am extracting the same data for current –
· 284 articles including categories, templates, and talk pages.
· 41 total number of editors; including those who have done just
one edit.
· 18 editors with more than 10 edit counts.
These figures definitely point to the fact that the workshops are not
wasted efforts. These changes have happened in just one month. In the stats
page you may also notice that Tulu Wikipedia was almost dormant from Sep
2009 till April 2014 with some occasional activity spikes in between. Let
us hope the new set of editors who have come in will actively keep
contributing to Tulu Wikipedia. Optimism is not a bad idea after all.
2. Wikipedia in UG education program at Christ University Bangalore:
It is true that a spike can be seen in the stats for Kannada Wikipedia.
But the program will be continuing this year also. Students will continue
to write for Kannada Wikipedia. This academic year they will also add
content to Kannada Wikisource. I have personally interacted with many
students. There are quite a good number of students who are passionate
about enriching Kannada language and bringing latest knowledge into Kannada
by way of adding articles to Kannada Wikipedia. Nurturing those students
will help not only Kannada Wikipedia but also Kannada language and people
in general. Again, I would emphasis, let us be optimistic.
Thanks and regards,
Pavanaja
*From:* wikimediaindia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:
wikimediaindia-l-boun

Dear Abhilash,
Here is that part of Ravi's email to the list where he mentioned about Tulu-
QUOTE Yet, CIS seems to be repeating sich negligible impact outreach
programs many times in March and April 2014. This includes Tulu workshops
where there is active editor community at all. /QUOTE
Here is my profile -
http://cis-india.org/openness/blog/pavanaja-profile.pdf
http://cis-india.org/openness/blog/pavanaja-profile.pdf
Yes, I am an expert in Kannada. I belong to coastal Karnataka where Tulu is
spoken. I can talk and understand Tulu.
I hope I have answered your queries.
Shameless plug:
If I am allowed to blow my trumpet here, you may read this at leisure -
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/bytesforall_readers/conversations/messa
ges/200
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/bytesforall_readers/conversations/messag
es/200
Thanks and regards,
Pavanaja
From: wikimediaindia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org
[mailto:wikimediaindia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Abhilash
S Unni
Sent: 19 May 2014 12:52
To: 'Wikimedia India Community list'
Subject: Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Outcome of CIS work in Kannada Wikipedia
Sorry, I may be getting this wrong or missing something.
I do not see any query from Ravi regarding Tulu stats, did I miss something?
Ravi, could you clarify as well please.
Pavanaja, I am sorry, again I might be wrong in my understanding here as
well on your abilities. You are free to correct me, please share your
profile which I can read through if you do not mind.
Just was wondering from your email domain name (vishvakannada), that I
thought you are an expert on Kannada. Is Tulu also something that comes
under the same remit. Again, I am a layman, sorry if I am getting it wrong
and you are free to correct my wrong understanding.
Abhi
From: wikimediaindia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org
[mailto:wikimediaindia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Pavanaja
U B
Sent: Monday, May 19, 2014 12:03 PM
To: 'Wikimedia India Community list'
Subject: Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Outcome of CIS work in Kannada Wikipedia
Dear Ansuman,
Please go through the thread fully. Ravi asked a question about Tulu and I
answered that.
Regarding your statement that the stats are overall from 2007 and not for
one month only - Please read my email carefully. The first stats, ie, total
147 articles is for the period 2007 to March 2014. The current figure that I
mentioned is 284. This growth happened in just one month as I already wrote.
Regards,
Pavanaja
From: wikimediaindia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org
[mailto:wikimediaindia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of ansuman
Sent: 18 May 2014 21:06
To: Wikimedia India Community list
Subject: Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Outcome of CIS work in Kannada Wikipedia
The Subject line says Outcome of CIS work in Kannada Wikipedia. Why the
stats for Tulu ?
No wonder, they always try to cover up with something else!!!
Anyway in the stats, those numbers are overall from 2007, not just one
month's.
Ansuman
On 18 May 2014 20:45, Srikanth Ramakrishnan rsrikant...@gmail.com wrote:
Editors with 10 edit count?
That's nothing great. Half of them might have edited from the workshop
itself and then disappeared. Also, edit counts are never considered a good
measure of success.
Are there any real metrics being used?
On May 18, 2014 7:00 PM, Pavanaja U B pavan...@vishvakannada.com wrote:
Dear Ravi,
1.Tulu Wikipedia outreach programs and outcome:
Please look at the work plan here and the stats mentioned -
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/India_Access_To_Knowledge/Draft_Work_plan_Ju
ly_2014_-_June_2015/Making_the_Tulu_Wikipedia_Live.
Pay little attention to these numbers (excerpt from the work-plan above)-
The current stats, as of March 2014 stands like this:
. 147 articles including categories, templates, and talk pages.
. 31 total number of editors; including those who have done just one
edit.
. 8 editors with more than 10 edit counts.
Now please take a look at the stats at this page -
http://tools.wmflabs.org/pathoschild-contrib/catanalysis/index.php?title=Wp%
2Ftcy
http://tools.wmflabs.org/pathoschild-contrib/catanalysis/index.php?title=Wp
%2Ftcycat=0wiki=incubatorwikilistpages=on#distribution_201404
cat=0wiki=incubatorwikilistpages=on#distribution_201404. I am extracting
the same data for current -
. 284 articles including categories, templates, and talk pages.
. 41 total number of editors; including those who have done just one
edit.
. 18 editors with more than 10 edit counts.
These figures definitely point to the fact that the workshops are not wasted
efforts. These changes have happened in just one month. In the stats page
you may also notice that Tulu Wikipedia was almost dormant from Sep 2009
till April 2014 with some occasional activity spikes in between. Let us hope
the new set of editors who have come

Ravi only made a reference to Tulu. He didn't ask for Tulu stats now did
he?
On May 19, 2014 10:57 PM, Pavanaja U B pavan...@vishvakannada.com wrote:
Dear Abhilash,
Here is that part of Ravi’s email to the list where he mentioned about
Tulu-
QUOTE Yet, CIS seems to be repeating sich negligible impact outreach
programs many times in March and April 2014. This includes Tulu workshops
where there is active editor community at all. /QUOTE
Here is my profile -
http://cis-india.org/openness/blog/pavanaja-profile.pdf
Yes, I am an expert in Kannada. I belong to coastal Karnataka where Tulu
is spoken. I can talk and understand Tulu.
I hope I have answered your queries.
Shameless plug:
If I am allowed to blow my trumpet here, you may read this at leisure -
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/bytesforall_readers/conversations/messages/200
Thanks and regards,
Pavanaja
*From:* wikimediaindia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:
wikimediaindia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] *On Behalf Of *Abhilash S
Unni
*Sent:* 19 May 2014 12:52
*To:* 'Wikimedia India Community list'
*Subject:* Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Outcome of CIS work in Kannada Wikipedia
Sorry, I may be getting this wrong or missing something.
I do not see any query from Ravi regarding Tulu stats, did I miss
something?
Ravi, could you clarify as well please.
Pavanaja, I am sorry, again I might be wrong in my understanding here as
well on your abilities. You are free to correct me, please share your
profile which I can read through if you do not mind.
Just was wondering from your email domain name (vishvakannada), that I
thought you are an expert on Kannada. Is Tulu also something that comes
under the same remit. Again, I am a layman, sorry if I am getting it wrong
and you are free to correct my wrong understanding.
Abhi
*From:* wikimediaindia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [
mailto:wikimediaindia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.orgwikimediaindia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org]
*On Behalf Of *Pavanaja U B
*Sent:* Monday, May 19, 2014 12:03 PM
*To:* 'Wikimedia India Community list'
*Subject:* Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Outcome of CIS work in Kannada Wikipedia
Dear Ansuman,
Please go through the thread fully. Ravi asked a question about Tulu and I
answered that.
Regarding your statement that the stats are overall from 2007 and not for
one month only – Please read my email carefully. The first stats, ie, total
147 articles is for the period 2007 to March 2014. The current figure that
I mentioned is 284. This growth happened in just one month as I already
wrote.
Regards,
Pavanaja
*From:* wikimediaindia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [
mailto:wikimediaindia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.orgwikimediaindia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org]
*On Behalf Of *ansuman
*Sent:* 18 May 2014 21:06
*To:* Wikimedia India Community list
*Subject:* Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Outcome of CIS work in Kannada Wikipedia
The Subject line says Outcome of CIS work in Kannada Wikipedia. Why the
stats for Tulu ?
No wonder, they always try to cover up with something else!!!
Anyway in the stats, those numbers are overall from 2007, not just one
month's.
Ansuman
On 18 May 2014 20:45, Srikanth Ramakrishnan rsrikant...@gmail.com wrote:
Editors with 10 edit count?
That's nothing great. Half of them might have edited from the workshop
itself and then disappeared. Also, edit counts are never considered a good
measure of success.
Are there any real metrics being used?
On May 18, 2014 7:00 PM, Pavanaja U B pavan...@vishvakannada.com
wrote:
Dear Ravi,
1.Tulu Wikipedia outreach programs and outcome:
Please look at the work plan here and the stats mentioned –
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/India_Access_To_Knowledge/Draft_Work_plan_July_2014_-_June_2015/Making_the_Tulu_Wikipedia_Live.
Pay little attention to these numbers (excerpt from the work-plan above)-
The current stats, as of March 2014 stands like this:
· 147 articles including categories, templates, and talk pages.
· 31 total number of editors; including those who have done just
one edit.
· 8 editors with more than 10 edit counts.
Now please take a look at the stats at this page -
http://tools.wmflabs.org/pathoschild-contrib/catanalysis/index.php?title=Wp%2Ftcycat=0wiki=incubatorwikilistpages=on#distribution_201404.
I am extracting the same data for current –
· 284 articles including categories, templates, and talk pages.
· 41 total number of editors; including those who have done just
one edit.
· 18 editors with more than 10 edit counts.
These figures definitely point to the fact that the workshops are not
wasted efforts. These changes have happened in just one month. In the stats
page you may also notice that Tulu Wikipedia was almost dormant from Sep
2009 till April 2014 with some occasional activity spikes in between. Let
us hope

Pavanaja,
Thanks for providing info regarding outcomes from your efforts in Tulu
Wikipedia outreach and Kannada Wikipedia education program.
I will provide a detailed response by tomorrow.
Hey Srikanth and others,
Doesn't matter if I asked for Tulu stats. I appreciate Pavanaj's efforts to
highlight the outcome of their Tulu outreach work even if it is a passing
mention from me.
Ravi
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https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

Ravi,
with all due respect.
It's been 15 mails on this thread and there is nothing about what the
thread subject says: Kannada.
There is talk of Tulu, but no Kannada.
On 20 May 2014 01:49, Ravishankar ravidre...@gmail.com wrote:
Pavanaja,
Thanks for providing info regarding outcomes from your efforts in Tulu
Wikipedia outreach and Kannada Wikipedia education program.
I will provide a detailed response by tomorrow.
Hey Srikanth and others,
Doesn't matter if I asked for Tulu stats. I appreciate Pavanaj's efforts
to highlight the outcome of their Tulu outreach work even if it is a
passing mention from me.
Ravi
___
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Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
--
Regards,
Srikanth Ramakrishnan,
What goes around, may not necessarily come around, it may simply bounce
back.
Please sign this petition for Volvo buses in Coimbatore:
https://www.change.org/en-IN/petitions/the-transport-minister-tamil-nadu-introduction-of-volvo-city-buses-in-the-city-of-coimbatore
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Hello Pavanaja
Thanks for your note and links. Impressive and convincing. No that is not
shameless at all, after all your effort and the achievements are result of that
effort, which should of course be appreciated and you can, and should claim due
credit for that.
That said, I do feel that it is odd, when Ravi had specifically asked for
details regarding Kannada outreach, the response more or less seems to be
concentrating on Tulu.
The fact that this thread subject line mentions Kannada means that someone who
might be interested to know about Tulu may not even look into this. Another
thread which could ask for Tulu details might eventually originate asking for
the same information, and it could be a mish-mash. A situation which could have
been very well avoided. My two paise.
Sadly, this seems to be an ongoing situation here, not just this instance.
There seems to be a concentrated effort (it could be un-intentional, however
the general feeling as far as I am concerned and my personal take is that it is
concentrated effort), to always divert attention or focus of a discussion away
from the actual subject, leading to an unfortunate situation where, either the
queries are not answered properly or the responses from the concerned get lost
in the cacophony.
Abhi
From: wikimediaindia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org
[mailto:wikimediaindia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Srikanth
Ramakrishnan
Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2014 02:00 AM
To: Wikimedia India Community list
Subject: Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Outcome of CIS work in Kannada Wikipedia
Ravi,
with all due respect.
It's been 15 mails on this thread and there is nothing about what the thread
subject says: Kannada.
There is talk of Tulu, but no Kannada.
On 20 May 2014 01:49, Ravishankar ravidre...@gmail.com
mailto:ravidre...@gmail.com wrote:
Pavanaja,
Thanks for providing info regarding outcomes from your efforts in Tulu
Wikipedia outreach and Kannada Wikipedia education program.
I will provide a detailed response by tomorrow.
Hey Srikanth and others,
Doesn't matter if I asked for Tulu stats. I appreciate Pavanaj's efforts to
highlight the outcome of their Tulu outreach work even if it is a passing
mention from me.
Ravi
___
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Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
mailto:Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
--
Regards,
Srikanth Ramakrishnan,
What goes around, may not necessarily come around, it may simply bounce back.
Please sign this petition for Volvo buses in Coimbatore:
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Hi all,
The very first email in this thread by Ravi had two main queries –one was about
Tulu Wikipedia workshop and another one about Christ University project. I have
answered both of them. Since both questions were asked in the same email, I
answered both of them in same reply mail. Vikram also answered about the Christ
University project. Complete report of CIS-A2K activities and outcome is
available on meta and I am sure all the people who have been active in this
thread have thoroughly gone through them. I don’t think we will be gaining
anything more by doing further hair-splitting on this.
Thanks and regards,
Pavanaja
From: wikimediaindia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org
[mailto:wikimediaindia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Abhilash S
Unni
Sent: 20 May 2014 09:05
To: 'Wikimedia India Community list'
Subject: Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Outcome of CIS work in Kannada Wikipedia
Hello Pavanaja
Thanks for your note and links. Impressive and convincing. No that is not
shameless at all, after all your effort and the achievements are result of that
effort, which should of course be appreciated and you can, and should claim due
credit for that.
That said, I do feel that it is odd, when Ravi had specifically asked for
details regarding Kannada outreach, the response more or less seems to be
concentrating on Tulu.
The fact that this thread subject line mentions Kannada means that someone who
might be interested to know about Tulu may not even look into this. Another
thread which could ask for Tulu details might eventually originate asking for
the same information, and it could be a mish-mash. A situation which could have
been very well avoided. My two paise.
Sadly, this seems to be an ongoing situation here, not just this instance.
There seems to be a concentrated effort (it could be un-intentional, however
the general feeling as far as I am concerned and my personal take is that it is
concentrated effort), to always divert attention or focus of a discussion away
from the actual subject, leading to an unfortunate situation where, either the
queries are not answered properly or the responses from the concerned get lost
in the cacophony.
Abhi
From: wikimediaindia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org
[mailto:wikimediaindia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Srikanth
Ramakrishnan
Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2014 02:00 AM
To: Wikimedia India Community list
Subject: Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Outcome of CIS work in Kannada Wikipedia
Ravi,
with all due respect.
It's been 15 mails on this thread and there is nothing about what the thread
subject says: Kannada.
There is talk of Tulu, but no Kannada.
On 20 May 2014 01:49, Ravishankar ravidre...@gmail.com wrote:
Pavanaja,
Thanks for providing info regarding outcomes from your efforts in Tulu
Wikipedia outreach and Kannada Wikipedia education program.
I will provide a detailed response by tomorrow.
Hey Srikanth and others,
Doesn't matter if I asked for Tulu stats. I appreciate Pavanaj's efforts to
highlight the outcome of their Tulu outreach work even if it is a passing
mention from me.
Ravi
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On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 9:31 AM, Pavanaja U B
pavan...@vishvakannada.com wrote:
The very first email in this thread by Ravi had two main queries –one was
about Tulu Wikipedia workshop and another one about Christ University
project. I have answered both of them. Since both questions were asked in
the same email, I answered both of them in same reply mail. Vikram also
answered about the Christ University project. Complete report of CIS-A2K
activities and outcome is available on meta and I am sure all the people who
have been active in this thread have thoroughly gone through them. I don’t
think we will be gaining anything more by doing further hair-splitting on
this.
I am not entirely sure that the above is a correct summary of things.
If http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/2014-May/011351.html
is the first email on the thread (from Ravishankar), then the points
raised were:
[+] Section 1.3 of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2013-10-02/News_and_notes
provides a set of observations in the form of Lessons Learned
[+] Ravishankar's point is that although the lessons were recorded,
there are more instances where similar has occurred and lessons have
not been implemented. To quote from that email Yet, CIS seems to be
repeating sich negligible impact outreach programs many times in March
and April 2014. This includes Tulu workshops where there is active
editor community at all.
I am not sure whether than phrase Tulu workshops where there is
active editor community at all was meant to read as no active editor
community at all. Since no clarification or, amendments were
provided, that line is kept dangling - but the reference to Tulu does
not obvious ask for stats.
[+] The mail thereafter goes to cite
http://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/TablesWikipediaKN.htm which is a more
broad update of the status/stats for Kannada and positions this in
contrast to a news article
http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-national/tp-karnataka/wikipedia-taps-students-for-kannada-content/article5824580.ece.
The objective for the comparison is to provide data for the assertion
that when you look at Kannada Wikipedia stats, the user activity has
returned to pre-education programme levels within a month.
In short, the original email, if that is the first on this thread,
neither asked about Tulu and nor did it ask about the Christ
University project.
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https://twitter.com/#!/sankarshan
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Vikram,
Except for Christ University workshops, I assume all other outreach efforts
are one time events.
Let us wait two more years to understand what the Christ University
experiment delivers :)
Ravi
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Hari,
I will appreciate if you could discuss this in Kannada Wikipedia Village
pump and mailing list being a Kannada Wiki contributor yourself and educate
the Indian Wikimedia community.
I am afraid that this won't be a good first mail from me for the Kannada
community :)
Ravi
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Dear Ravi,
1.Tulu Wikipedia outreach programs and outcome:
Please look at the work plan here and the stats mentioned –
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/India_Access_To_Knowledge/Draft_Work_plan_July_2014_-_June_2015/Making_the_Tulu_Wikipedia_Live.
Pay little attention to these numbers (excerpt from the work-plan above)-
The current stats, as of March 2014 stands like this:
· 147 articles including categories, templates, and talk pages.
· 31 total number of editors; including those who have done just one
edit.
· 8 editors with more than 10 edit counts.
Now please take a look at the stats at this page -
http://tools.wmflabs.org/pathoschild-contrib/catanalysis/index.php?title=Wp%2Ftcy
http://tools.wmflabs.org/pathoschild-contrib/catanalysis/index.php?title=Wp%2Ftcycat=0wiki=incubatorwikilistpages=on#distribution_201404
cat=0wiki=incubatorwikilistpages=on#distribution_201404. I am extracting
the same data for current –
· 284 articles including categories, templates, and talk pages.
· 41 total number of editors; including those who have done just one
edit.
· 18 editors with more than 10 edit counts.
These figures definitely point to the fact that the workshops are not wasted
efforts. These changes have happened in just one month. In the stats page you
may also notice that Tulu Wikipedia was almost dormant from Sep 2009 till
April 2014 with some occasional activity spikes in between. Let us hope the new
set of editors who have come in will actively keep contributing to Tulu
Wikipedia. Optimism is not a bad idea after all.
2. Wikipedia in UG education program at Christ University Bangalore:
It is true that a spike can be seen in the stats for Kannada Wikipedia. But the
program will be continuing this year also. Students will continue to write for
Kannada Wikipedia. This academic year they will also add content to Kannada
Wikisource. I have personally interacted with many students. There are quite a
good number of students who are passionate about enriching Kannada language and
bringing latest knowledge into Kannada by way of adding articles to Kannada
Wikipedia. Nurturing those students will help not only Kannada Wikipedia but
also Kannada language and people in general. Again, I would emphasis, let us be
optimistic.
Thanks and regards,
Pavanaja
From: wikimediaindia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org
[mailto:wikimediaindia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Ravishankar
Sent: 17 May 2014 16:40
To: Wikimedia India Community list
Subject: [Wikimediaindia-l] Outcome of CIS work in Kannada Wikipedia
MarHey,
Any community member here from Kannada Wikipedia?
I would like to understand the outcome of CIS work there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2013-10-02/News_and_notes
lists one of the lessons learned as follows:
//Single-session, general-audience outreach has negligible impact everywhere
(for example, just giving a single talk about Wikipedia to whoever shows up—the
conversion rate to editors is tiny, and yet we keep doing it.//
(Do give a full read of that whole section 1.3 Lessons learned)
Yet, CIS seems to be repeating sich negligible impact outreach programs many
times in March and April 2014. This includes Tulu workshops where there is
active editor community at all.
To quote Asaf again:
//So just what has the Foundation learned about the criteria for funding
successful activities? Bartov first talked about a fundamental prerequisite:
The sine qua non of most programs is a core of self-motivating active editors.
Most of the things you want to do, most of the things chapters in the global
north are doing, depend on this core. It can be as small as four or five
people, but those people need to be actual active editors ... who edit because
they like it, they enjoy editing Wikipedia or Commons, they get it, and they
are inherently committed to our principles like NPOV; not people who are
editing because there's a contest on and they want to win the laptop.
Where that core doesn't exist, it's very hard to deploy any other type of
program. If you want [a GLAM partnership] with the National Museum of Cameroon
... how are you going to deliver on what you promise the museum if you don't
have local editors who will do the work – write the articles, show up to meet
the curators. So this is the big, big challenge for which we don't have an
answer: how do you grow such a core ... in a certain country? ... we're now
cautious about active investment where there is not an active
community—although it's still possible if you give us a really great idea.//
The only outcome of such initiatives seem to be PR material like this:
http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-national/tp-karnataka/wikipedia-taps-students-for-kannada-content/article5824580.ece
where Pavanaja quotes as follows:
//There was a significant increase in the number of editors

Editors with 10 edit count?
That's nothing great. Half of them might have edited from the workshop
itself and then disappeared. Also, edit counts are never considered a good
measure of success.
Are there any real metrics being used?
On May 18, 2014 7:00 PM, Pavanaja U B pavan...@vishvakannada.com wrote:
Dear Ravi,
1.Tulu Wikipedia outreach programs and outcome:
Please look at the work plan here and the stats mentioned –
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/India_Access_To_Knowledge/Draft_Work_plan_July_2014_-_June_2015/Making_the_Tulu_Wikipedia_Live.
Pay little attention to these numbers (excerpt from the work-plan above)-
The current stats, as of March 2014 stands like this:
· 147 articles including categories, templates, and talk pages.
· 31 total number of editors; including those who have done just
one edit.
· 8 editors with more than 10 edit counts.
Now please take a look at the stats at this page -
http://tools.wmflabs.org/pathoschild-contrib/catanalysis/index.php?title=Wp%2Ftcycat=0wiki=incubatorwikilistpages=on#distribution_201404.
I am extracting the same data for current –
· 284 articles including categories, templates, and talk pages.
· 41 total number of editors; including those who have done just
one edit.
· 18 editors with more than 10 edit counts.
These figures definitely point to the fact that the workshops are not
wasted efforts. These changes have happened in just one month. In the stats
page you may also notice that Tulu Wikipedia was almost dormant from Sep
2009 till April 2014 with some occasional activity spikes in between. Let
us hope the new set of editors who have come in will actively keep
contributing to Tulu Wikipedia. Optimism is not a bad idea after all.
2. Wikipedia in UG education program at Christ University Bangalore:
It is true that a spike can be seen in the stats for Kannada Wikipedia.
But the program will be continuing this year also. Students will continue
to write for Kannada Wikipedia. This academic year they will also add
content to Kannada Wikisource. I have personally interacted with many
students. There are quite a good number of students who are passionate
about enriching Kannada language and bringing latest knowledge into Kannada
by way of adding articles to Kannada Wikipedia. Nurturing those students
will help not only Kannada Wikipedia but also Kannada language and people
in general. Again, I would emphasis, let us be optimistic.
Thanks and regards,
Pavanaja
*From:* wikimediaindia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:
wikimediaindia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] *On Behalf Of *Ravishankar
*Sent:* 17 May 2014 16:40
*To:* Wikimedia India Community list
*Subject:* [Wikimediaindia-l] Outcome of CIS work in Kannada Wikipedia
MarHey,
Any community member here from Kannada Wikipedia?
I would like to understand the outcome of CIS work there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2013-10-02/News_and_notes
lists one of the lessons learned as follows:
//Single-session, general-audience outreach has negligible impact
everywhere (for example, just giving a single talk about Wikipedia to
whoever shows up—the conversion rate to editors is tiny, and yet we keep
*doing* it.//
(Do give a full read of that whole section 1.3 Lessons learned)
Yet, CIS seems to be repeating sich negligible impact outreach programs
many times in March and April 2014. This includes Tulu workshops where
there is active editor community at all.
To quote Asaf again:
//So just what *has* the Foundation learned about the criteria for
funding successful activities? Bartov first talked about a fundamental
prerequisite:
The *sine qua non* of most programs is a core of self-motivating active
editors. Most of the things you want to do, most of the things chapters in
the global north are doing, depend on this core. It can be as small as four
or five people, but those people need to be actual active editors ... who
edit because they like it, they enjoy editing Wikipedia or Commons, they
get it, and they are inherently committed to our principles like NPOV; not
people who are editing because there's a contest on and they want to win
the laptop.
Where that core doesn't exist, it's very hard to deploy any other type of
program. If you want [a GLAM partnership] with the National Museum of
Cameroon ... how are you going to deliver on what you promise the museum if
you don't have local editors who will do the work – write the articles,
show up to meet the curators. So this is the big, big challenge for which
we don't have an answer: how do you grow such a core ... in a certain
country? ... we're now cautious about active investment where there is not
an active community—although it's still possible if you give us a really
great idea.//
The only outcome of such initiatives seem to be PR material like this:

The Subject line says Outcome of CIS work in Kannada Wikipedia. Why the
stats for Tulu ?
No wonder, they always try to cover up with something else!!!
Anyway in the stats, those numbers are overall from 2007, not just one
month's.
Ansuman
On 18 May 2014 20:45, Srikanth Ramakrishnan rsrikant...@gmail.com wrote:
Editors with 10 edit count?
That's nothing great. Half of them might have edited from the workshop
itself and then disappeared. Also, edit counts are never considered a good
measure of success.
Are there any real metrics being used?
On May 18, 2014 7:00 PM, Pavanaja U B pavan...@vishvakannada.com
wrote:
Dear Ravi,
1.Tulu Wikipedia outreach programs and outcome:
Please look at the work plan here and the stats mentioned -
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/India_Access_To_Knowledge/Draft_Work_plan_July_2014_-_June_2015/Making_the_Tulu_Wikipedia_Live.
Pay little attention to these numbers (excerpt from the work-plan above)-
The current stats, as of March 2014 stands like this:
· 147 articles including categories, templates, and talk pages.
· 31 total number of editors; including those who have done just
one edit.
· 8 editors with more than 10 edit counts.
Now please take a look at the stats at this page -
http://tools.wmflabs.org/pathoschild-contrib/catanalysis/index.php?title=Wp%2Ftcycat=0wiki=incubatorwikilistpages=on#distribution_201404.
I am extracting the same data for current -
· 284 articles including categories, templates, and talk pages.
· 41 total number of editors; including those who have done just
one edit.
· 18 editors with more than 10 edit counts.
These figures definitely point to the fact that the workshops are not
wasted efforts. These changes have happened in just one month. In the stats
page you may also notice that Tulu Wikipedia was almost dormant from Sep
2009 till April 2014 with some occasional activity spikes in between. Let
us hope the new set of editors who have come in will actively keep
contributing to Tulu Wikipedia. Optimism is not a bad idea after all.
2. Wikipedia in UG education program at Christ University Bangalore:
It is true that a spike can be seen in the stats for Kannada Wikipedia.
But the program will be continuing this year also. Students will continue
to write for Kannada Wikipedia. This academic year they will also add
content to Kannada Wikisource. I have personally interacted with many
students. There are quite a good number of students who are passionate
about enriching Kannada language and bringing latest knowledge into Kannada
by way of adding articles to Kannada Wikipedia. Nurturing those students
will help not only Kannada Wikipedia but also Kannada language and people
in general. Again, I would emphasis, let us be optimistic.
Thanks and regards,
Pavanaja
*From:* wikimediaindia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:
wikimediaindia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] *On Behalf Of *Ravishankar
*Sent:* 17 May 2014 16:40
*To:* Wikimedia India Community list
*Subject:* [Wikimediaindia-l] Outcome of CIS work in Kannada Wikipedia
MarHey,
Any community member here from Kannada Wikipedia?
I would like to understand the outcome of CIS work there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2013-10-02/News_and_notes
lists one of the lessons learned as follows:
//Single-session, general-audience outreach has negligible impact
everywhere (for example, just giving a single talk about Wikipedia to
whoever shows up--the conversion rate to editors is tiny, and yet we keep
*doing* it.//
(Do give a full read of that whole section 1.3 Lessons learned)
Yet, CIS seems to be repeating sich negligible impact outreach programs
many times in March and April 2014. This includes Tulu workshops where
there is active editor community at all.
To quote Asaf again:
//So just what *has* the Foundation learned about the criteria for
funding successful activities? Bartov first talked about a fundamental
prerequisite:
The *sine qua non* of most programs is a core of self-motivating active
editors. Most of the things you want to do, most of the things chapters in
the global north are doing, depend on this core. It can be as small as four
or five people, but those people need to be actual active editors ... who
edit because they like it, they enjoy editing Wikipedia or Commons, they
get it, and they are inherently committed to our principles like NPOV; not
people who are editing because there's a contest on and they want to win
the laptop.
Where that core doesn't exist, it's very hard to deploy any other type
of program. If you want [a GLAM partnership] with the National Museum of
Cameroon ... how are you going to deliver on what you promise the museum if
you don't have local editors who will do the work - write the articles,
show up to meet the curators. So this is the big, big challenge for

Hey,
The last mail should just start with hey. Marhey is a typo.
Check
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/India_Access_To_Knowledge/Events#March_2014for
the list of paid outreach events which have disputable value.
I assume that such outreaches are done despite the value to hunt for
potential partners for Wikipedia Education program.
Ravi
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Ravi,
You should perhaps post this to the Kannada Wikipedia mailing list to get
some answers from some actual contributors.
On 17 May 2014 16:40, Ravishankar ravidre...@gmail.com wrote:
MarHey,
Any community member here from Kannada Wikipedia?
I would like to understand the outcome of CIS work there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2013-10-02/News_and_notes
lists one of the lessons learned as follows:
//Single-session, general-audience outreach has negligible impact
everywhere (for example, just giving a single talk about Wikipedia to
whoever shows up—the conversion rate to editors is tiny, and yet we keep
*doing* it.//
(Do give a full read of that whole section 1.3 Lessons learned)
Yet, CIS seems to be repeating sich negligible impact outreach programs
many times in March and April 2014. This includes Tulu workshops where
there is active editor community at all.
To quote Asaf again:
//So just what *has* the Foundation learned about the criteria for
funding successful activities? Bartov first talked about a fundamental
prerequisite:
The *sine qua non* of most programs is a core of self-motivating active
editors. Most of the things you want to do, most of the things chapters in
the global north are doing, depend on this core. It can be as small as four
or five people, but those people need to be actual active editors ... who
edit because they like it, they enjoy editing Wikipedia or Commons, they
get it, and they are inherently committed to our principles like NPOV; not
people who are editing because there's a contest on and they want to win
the laptop.
Where that core doesn't exist, it's very hard to deploy any other type of
program. If you want [a GLAM partnership] with the National Museum of
Cameroon ... how are you going to deliver on what you promise the museum if
you don't have local editors who will do the work – write the articles,
show up to meet the curators. So this is the big, big challenge for which
we don't have an answer: how do you grow such a core ... in a certain
country? ... we're now cautious about active investment where there is not
an active community—although it's still possible if you give us a really
great idea.//
The only outcome of such initiatives seem to be PR material like this:
http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-national/tp-karnataka/wikipedia-taps-students-for-kannada-content/article5824580.ece
where Pavanaja quotes as follows:
//There was a significant increase in the number of editors after 500
students of Christ University, Bangalore, were trained in editing at a
workshop held in January this year.//
And when you look at Kannada Wikipedia stats, the user activity has
returned to pre-education programme levels within a month
http://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/TablesWikipediaKN.htm
So, I would like to understand why the wheel is getting reinvented again
and again with an insane budget besides documented evidence of WMF's
learning on this.
Stop doing paid outreach.
Ravi
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http://twitter.com/hpnadig
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