Could someone please explain to me, in clear simple words, the Nagarjuna/Madhyamaka meaning of emptiness and the two truths?

Here's my current understanding:

At the level of relative truth, there is a real concrete world, filled with real concrete objects, in which real concrete things happen. It's the world most people believe is the only world, the real world.

At the level of absolute truth, there is only emptiness: phenomena with no inherent existence, intrinsic nature, ultimate essence. Absolute truth doesn't deny the existence of the world of objects, doesn't say it's all a grand illusion produced by mind; it only denies that these objects have inherent existence (i.e., that they are not subject to dependent origination).

Per Nagarjuna/Madhyamaka is there anything that DOES have intrinsic existence?

For example, emptiness. Or Buddha nature?

My understanding is that Prasangika Madhymaka refutes the entire concept of svabhava. Shentong states that buddha nature/nirvana/whatever is svabhava, empty of other, not empty of itself. I'm sure there's a ton missing there, but on a basic level I think that's the dichotomy.

One thing seems to be though, alot of times criticism of this position seems to be centered on the mistaken idea that Nagarjuna was somehow a nihilist, who was saying "nothing exists"..there is no statement there advocating inherent non existence either..which would actually just be another kind of inherent existence.

if you want i can send you the mulamadhyamakakarika by Nagarjuna to you via email or Skype. the Garfields version. it ought to be a good commentary also.

If the thought of demons Never rises in your mind, You need not fear the demon hosts around you. It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned, there are neither buddhas or demons. He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue, will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion. Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

i dont think you will get a really satisfying answer to the two truths via Dharmawheel. you need to study and experience it yourself.

If the thought of demons Never rises in your mind, You need not fear the demon hosts around you. It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned, there are neither buddhas or demons. He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue, will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion. Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

I think your description is an accurate summary on the level of a general description of the topic. In other words, it explains the concept clearly enough. Where I think your issue is, revolves around the use of the word 'concrete'. Perhaps what you're trying to find is something to conceptualize as fundamental, something which can provide a foundation for one's sense of what exists.

I think what is at issue is finding that which is always so, which really is 'self-existent', that is, doesn't rely on anything else for its existence, the one 'true substance'. In the theistic traditions that might be Deity as the eternal ground of existence. I think the Buddhist approach is not to provide such resting place for the conceptual mind - not to provide a 'master concept' in terms of which everything else can be explained. It doesn't deny that there is one, but it does deny that it can be conceived as any particular entity or object of thought. Instead the task is always to understand how thought seeks to find some refuge in the notion of an absolute or something self-existent. That is why the Madhyamika employs the dialectical method to demonstrate that any such formulation is self-contradictory.

But at the same time, this doesn't deny the reality of karma and suffering. Even if we understand on the intellectual level that these things are ultimately non-existent, while they are still real for us, then we have to deal with them. That is the nature of the conventional reality which we're all part of.

Learn to do good, refrain from evil, purify the mind ~ this is the teaching of the Buddhas

jeeprs wrote:I think what is at issue is finding that which is always so, which really is 'self-existent', that is, doesn't rely on anything else for its existence, the one 'true substance'. In the theistic traditions that might be Deity as the eternal ground of existence. I think the Buddhist approach is not to provide such resting place for the conceptual mind - not to provide a 'master concept' in terms of which everything else can be explained. It doesn't deny that there is one, but it does deny that it can be conceived as any particular entity or object of thought.

So is the prevalent conclusion among Buddhists that (Buddha thought that) there IS in fact an eternal ground, but that it's too dangerous for the mind to believe that, so the entire issue is deemed moot? Or that there is no eternal ground? Or that no one can ever know with certainty if there is or isn't?

It sounds a bit like this to me:

There's this guy who's been to the other side of the hill outside his village. He meets with a bunch of villagers who have not been to the other side of the hill. The village, btw, is in dire need of fresh water. They ask him: "Is there a fresh-water lake on the other side of the hill?" Rather than saying yes or no to them, he spends all his time trying to get them to understand why they are asking the question in the first place.

One of the main assertions of Buddhism is impermanence: everything is constantly changing.

To try to observe the impermanence of the seemingly concrete, enduring objects in the world (of relative truth) is futile. Our sensorium is not sensitive enough to detect the micro-changes going on in a rock moment to moment.

But there is something whose constant change we *can* observe: the goings on in our mind. So, to observe impermanence in action, look no further than at your own mind.

One of the main assertions of Buddhism is impermanence: everything is constantly changing.

To try to observe the impermanence of the seemingly concrete, enduring objects in the world (of relative truth) is futile. Our sensorium is not sensitive enough to detect the micro-changes going on in a rock moment to moment.

But there is something whose constant change we *can* observe: the goings on in our mind. So, to observe impermanence in action, look no further than at your own mind.

Isn't one of the issues for Buddhism that concepts tend to aim at permanence, so the universal idea, e.g. "cat", remains the same despite any actual experience of a particular cat?

(btw, nice site you have there)

we cannot get rid of God because we still believe in grammar - Nietzsche

i tried to send it via email but it was too big file to be able to send it. skype is an option if you have skype.

If the thought of demons Never rises in your mind, You need not fear the demon hosts around you. It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned, there are neither buddhas or demons. He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue, will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion. Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

If the thought of demons Never rises in your mind, You need not fear the demon hosts around you. It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned, there are neither buddhas or demons. He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue, will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion. Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

i have dropbox but its full, skype is the easiest way since i dont want to create a hotmail account. actually i think i have it in dropbox. let me see. ill try to send it to you via dropbox.

If the thought of demons Never rises in your mind, You need not fear the demon hosts around you. It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned, there are neither buddhas or demons. He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue, will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion. Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

i sent the dropbox link to your gmail. let me know in this thread if you succeeded to download it.

thanks sherab dorje for opening up a door

If the thought of demons Never rises in your mind, You need not fear the demon hosts around you. It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned, there are neither buddhas or demons. He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue, will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion. Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

If the thought of demons Never rises in your mind, You need not fear the demon hosts around you. It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned, there are neither buddhas or demons. He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue, will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion. Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

"rachmiel"]So is the prevalent conclusion among Buddhists that (Buddha thought that) there IS in fact an eternal ground, but that it's too dangerous for the mind to believe that, so the entire issue is deemed moot? Or that there is no eternal ground? Or that no one can ever know with certainty if there is or isn't?

it is the conclusion that is taught in the Thrid Turning Sutras.Since this eternal ground is inconceivable to the ordinary there is no way of knowing if there is or isn't something "beyond"we just have to take the Buddha's word on it.http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nypo.html 36. "When a monk's mind is thus freed, O monks, neither the gods with Indra, nor the gods with Brahma, nor the gods with the Lord of Creatures (Pajaapati), when searching will find[36] on what the consciousness of one thus gone (tathaagata) is based. Why is that? One who has thus gone is no longer traceable here and now, so I say."

One of the main assertions of Buddhism is impermanence: everything is constantly changing.

To try to observe the impermanence of the seemingly concrete, enduring objects in the world (of relative truth) is futile. Our sensorium is not sensitive enough to detect the micro-changes going on in a rock moment to moment.

But there is something whose constant change we *can* observe: the goings on in our mind. So, to observe impermanence in action, look no further than at your own mind.

Impermanence is not a good thing.SN 22.46 Impermanent (2) pg 885 Ven Bodhi translationAt Savatthi. "Bhikkhus, form is impermanent.... Feeling is impermanent.... Preception is impermanent.... Volitional formations are impermanent.... Consciousness is impermanent. What is Impermanent is suffering. What is suffering is nonself. What is nonself should be seen as it really is with correct wisdom thus: This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self."