Whoa! I guess it’s time to comment (on a few things): Reference the latest Otay photo submitted by hasbeen.

The holds aren’t as small as they look on Grand Monet and the climb is really just a one or two move wonder at the very top. Also, following the seam straight out the top is the only way this climb even gets an 11 rating. As with all the climbs at Otay, this climb is a bit contrived and using any feature to the right of the crack was considered off-route. For the most part you have to work at making the routes at Otay difficult.

The only reason Otay exists as a bolted climbing area in the first place is because it was put up before San Diego ever opened the doors to its first climbing gym. Like the people putting up the glue-ups at Woodson, the tunnel traverses at San Diego State University (SDSU), the routes under the I-15, and so on, “we were dying for somewhere to climb and get some clip-time”. Otay was never meant to be a “rock” climbing location, let alone any sort of a “destination”. It was like a little training ground where we would continually take moves “off”, forcing each other to work the routes differently every time we went there.

Like pbjosh said, [as somewhere to head to on your only “climb” day], “…Otay licks balls”. I couldn’t agree more. But crap was all we had to work with so up Otay went, sort of an outdoor gym, complete with overly contrived routes and more clips than you can shake a stick at. Incidentally, seems funny to me that Otay was placed in a local guidebook to further the authors’ agenda and then misrepresented in that same guidebook. First off, everyone knows it’s a pile...except for the bolts and cold-shuts. Regardless of what Kennedy and Hubbard printed about these anchors being unsafe, nothing could be further from the truth.

The cold-shuts are not your typical 3/8” diameter, but rather 7/16” diameter cold mild and heat treated steel. Not only did I personally discuss the cold-shuts “working” and “ultimate” load ranges for their originally designed and modified use with the manufacturer’s engineer, but I also tested them in a lab at SDSU’s Engineering department under the guidance of a materials engineering professor and found that they can easily withstand falls in excess of factor 2.

The bolts are the same as what you’ll see being sold in most climbing shops around the country. They are 3/8” diameter Rawl 5 piece anti-vibratory mechanical fasteners which have a pull-out load rating of over 6000 pounds and a sheer factor exceeding 8000 pounds. Lastly, every single anchor was set using a torque wrench in order to ensure installation was done per the manufacturer’s specifications. I could go on, but suffice it to say, “they are ‘damn’ safe”...so go ahead, climb on them – and fall – with impunity!

By the way, if anyone out there is “sincerely” interested, I kept all my files and can easily provide specification info. on all sorts of climbing anchors and fastening hardware, not to mention knot info. and breakage points of webbing, cordage and the like. Needless to say I’ve learned a lot more since Otay first went up and have continually added to, and updated those files...I guess you could say I take the whole issue of safety rather seriously.

Sorry there, I got a little side-tracked. Anyway, yeah neeshman those are some pretty scary shorts. What can I say? Except that was then and this is now...thanks just the same tracyroach. And t-dog is right about a couple of things, it’s definitely not dead vertical, just a steep slab, with bolts next to a crack. But feel free to drag your rack down to that dirty little pile called Otay anytime you like, nobody filled the crack in with mortar...and as I recall t-dog you said, “Too bad it’s bolted though, it really needs to be trad lead, that would be rad!!!!! – t-dog”. Nothing personal, but I would hardly consider Grand Monet a stellar crack. Don’t let that stop you though, nothing is forcing you to use the bolts, go ahead...plug away!

As for me, I agree with what Peter Croft had to say when referring to Owens, “It’s sport climbing stupid.” Now don’t get me wrong t-dog, I’m not calling you stupid. My point, and Croft’s implication, was that trad gear should be used when it’s warranted. Listen, there are plenty of places to bust out our trad racks. Places that should never be bolted. Places I love to climb at and often do. But get over it already, Otay and the likes are not those places! It’s an outdoor climbing gym for god’s sake...and before we bolted it, it was a trashed-out party spot.

Heck, some of my older climbing buddies remember hanging out down there stoned out of their minds long before they ever strapped on a harness. But whatever, I realize there will always be disagreement on that issue. I mean, there are also plenty of people who seem to think that the “pristine” nature of New Jack has somehow been altered forever due to tripperjm. Get real!

As for t-dog’s last comment...DUDE, YOU COULDN’T BE MORE WRONG! Hey, I’ll accept the heat that comes along with putting bolts in the vicinity of a crack (by the way, I don't indiscriminately bolt all cracks...I've done several first ascents without placing a single bolt, others have gone up as mixed routes, while still others have all bolts...there's a lot of thought that goes into the whole thing before I "personally" set any bolts near a crack…and I also never do it on a previously established route), but when it comes to being falsely accused of chipping, forget that, I never have and never will chip holds...period. I’m not about to altar the rock in order to bring it down to my level. If I can’t climb it, I can’t climb it. Now before someone thinks, “well then, why did you bolt it?”, believe me I can trad climb Grand Monet in my sleep...bolting it wasn’t about being able to climb it...just like putting up Otay wasn’t about creating some sort of destination crag.

One of the reasons I mention the whole chipping thing here is because I’ve heard rumors about me to the contrary (and given the comments I read about the photo, I can see how they get started).

One such rumor was started about a climb I finished at Valley Of The Moon, a climb that sends an obvious line and was just begging to be put up. Unfortunately, someone else tried it before me and chipped a couple of holds. SUCKY, FOR SURE. Especially since the chipped section wasn’t even the crux. But as I said, it’s a line that goes, so I did it. Though, admittedly, to this day I think about making the climb come in from a different angle so it skips the chipped section completely...then I’ll strip the hangers from the original start...we’ll see.

**A side note on this climb: The name of it is not Spite Despite as noted in the San Diego County Climbing Guide by Kennedy & Hubbard. It's Who Wants To Live Forever. Get on the climb, pull the crux lip, and while "dancing" your way to your next bolt you'll get a sense of why it was named that...but don't worry, you won't deck if you slip! **And a side note on Valley Of The Moon in general: A lot of new route development has taken place since that guidebook came out. So look for free updated and “correct” route names and descriptions on this area in the future...hopefully we'll be able to post it here and over at the San Diego Climbers Coalition web-site. And since the “overly sensitive” nature of this area, relative to route setting, seems to have passed, hopefully the authors of the San Diego County Climbing Guide will see fit to publish this information in their Second Edition.

Anyway t-dog, you can understand why I wouldn’t want another rumor floating around out there...I certainly wouldn’t wish it on you. But I do see where you could make the mistake. We all (there were five of us that financed and put-up Otay...to the tune of approx. $450 as I recall...bolting isn’t cheap, so that’s why we went for the cold-shuts in the first place at this location) wondered about the chipped looking spall on the rock to the right of the crack and just figured it was the result of either intentional or stray bullets. Plain and simple, they were there long before Otay received its first bolt. Anyway, we always considered them to be off-route, we even stated it the first time anything on Otay was published, in “Allez – Southern California’s Crag Mag”, way back in 94-95...hey, I said the climb was contrived!

Well, enough rambling, so just a final note folks. I think we all should strive to get our facts straight before we make comments in a public forum. It’s one thing to have discussions, debate ethics, have disagreements, or just poke fun at people’s style of dress (or lack thereof), but it’s something else entirely to spread hearsay or falsely comment when those comments can easily attach themselves to a persons’ reputation and that persons’ actions in the climbing community. Now, of course we all realize that some people will intentionally make false statements in order to discredit others and create strife...but such remarks very often give themselves away as to their author’s true intent. As for the rest of us, we should genuinely try to be more careful.

I am not familiar with Otay. I have no reason to doubt your' assertion that you don't chip holds. Everything you did regarding the development of Otay seems to be in keeping with other sport destinations I have been to. Unfortunately that includes bolting trad lead-able lines.

I would like to see more first assenters put up mixed routes when appropriate. If the line is unprotectable for 70 out of 100 feet, by all means bolt it all the way. However if the line has good pro except for a short blank section then 1 or 2 bolts should surfies.

Like I said above you really didn't do anything wrong, but if you want my opinion, don't bolt a crack or face climb that is otherwise protectable.

Nice sound off Jeff. Don't you know all sport climbing first ascentionists should immediately be labelled as chippers until proven otherwise? Also, lets not forget that unless you have bolted a wall looking something akin to Ceuse that you are a developer of choss and "shouldn't have wasted your time"??

What I find funny is many of these same people slinging these accusations/stupid remarks have no clue as to what it takes to develop anything, let alone enough experience to respect the work of others. If you go to pretty much any city which has a decent population of climbers you will find areas that are nearby that are developed that may not be world class but serve a purpose. That purpose is having a local climbing resource you can get out to in a hurry to crank out a few climbs.

People always asked me why I bothered with Boxsprings. From several people who have frequented both areas, I have heard that they (Otay/Boxsprings) are similar in nature. To them I responded, literally I would head up to Boxsprings multiple times a day between classes and crank out a few routes. Back down to UCR for a few hours in class, back out to the cliffs, and then back down to class. While Boxsprings wasn't world class, it is was fun enough to keep me sane while going to school.

If you live local to these types of aeras, see them for what they are, not what you think they should be. They are a means to get you out on the rock in a hurry and climbing.

Anyways, just thought I'd chime in. Don't sweat the haters Jeff. They are always present and always willing to sling more mud.

hey ruffster, lemme sling a lil' mud yer way: being a current ucr student, and having BOULDERD alla yer lil bolt-up jobbies, i can say that it was needless bolting. on choss. where a couple of top rope bolts wood have sufficed. or slinging other top boldrs. ive also seen some glue you 'liberally' applied at new jak. nice. wank.

hey ruffster, lemme sling a lil' mud yer way: being a current ucr student, and having BOULDERD alla yer lil bolt-up jobbies, i can say that it was needless bolting. on choss. where a couple of top rope bolts wood have sufficed. or slinging other top boldrs. ive also seen some glue you 'liberally' applied at new jak. nice. wank.

I was going to reply being serious, but then I looked at your profile and posts up to this point and realize your a troll.

I guess that you're so used to being attacked left and right that you thought I was accusing you of chipping the holds on Grand Monet. That is completely wrong, all I was saying is too bad the last holds don't look very natural, regardless of how they were created, it's too bad.

I guess that you're so used to being attacked left and right that you thought I was accusing you of chipping the holds on Grand Monet. That is completely wrong, all I was saying is too bad the last holds don't look very natural, regardless of how they were created, it's too bad.

What you actually wrote is:

In reply to:

From the pic, it looks like he's climbing Grand Monet, a 5.11 crack that got bolted. The funny part is that it's not even vertical, more like steep slab. Too bad the last holds are chipped too -- t-dog

out of respect, and in light of our conversation in the other thread, I have deleted my post here and apologize for my anger inspired, and unfair bashing. I hope you realize that the post in question was put up long before we had some meeting of the minds.

Again. I offer a public apology and a retraction of my statements.

I know of no definite routes that you have butchered.

I, on the other hand, have definitely put up some routes that were not in the best interest of the climbing community, but only in the sense that they were somewhat unneccessary, and in my overzealousness to put up great routes, I would sometimes forget that not everything needs to be led to be legitimized.

I guess that you're so used to being attacked left and right that you thought I was accusing you of chipping the holds on Grand Monet. That is completely wrong, all I was saying is too bad the last holds don't look very natural, regardless of how they were created, it's too bad.

What you actually wrote is:

In reply to:

From the pic, it looks like he's climbing Grand Monet, a 5.11 crack that got bolted. The funny part is that it's not even vertical, more like steep slab. Too bad the last holds are chipped too -- t-dog

"chipped" means artificially created, and from the comment I made about the picture, I don't see were I'm accusing trex of intently chipping the holds. But then again, maybe I just don't understand english...

what, because i dont post like some maniac loser, im a troll? dude, i have climbed more in so-cal then you have, but i dont consider you a socal troll...oh wait, yes i do. go bolt some shit at snow creek that any of my friends would just boldr. im going to my cave, to smoke some troll-green. late

any chance these routes are still around. i live in TJ, and if i could ride my MTB to a "decent" station to get some excercise in.... beit 3,4,5's or whatever... i'll take it. The pump wall is too far from work to do at night right now, and santee's going to be a little muddy, and i can't afford a gym.... any maps, directions etc??