The Visuddhimagga-Mahatika 229 straightforwardly connects the "thirasaññā", with the sati being established on nimitta (representation). ( Nimittaṃ ṭhapetabbanti satiyā tattha tattha sukhappavattanatthaṃ thiratarasañjānanaṃ pavattetabbaṃ. Thirasaññāpadaṭṭhānā hi sati. ) So this word has nothing to do with "simple awareness of the object".

what word??? this has nothing to do with what I posted.

"thirasaññā" from:

According to the Abhidhamma, sati arises based on fortified recognition (thīra-saññā). Whereas ordinary recognition (saññā) is not enough to keep the mind in objective awareness, once we fortify or reaffirm this recognition, not letting the mind move beyond simple awareness of the object for what it is, our minds will penetrate the nature of the object to the core, dispelling all doubt as to its essential nature as something worth clinging to or not.

Dmytro et al,Your view of sati has many of the characteristics of what Wikipedia* calls the Etymological Fallacy, "...a genetic fallacy** that holds, erroneously, that the present-day meaning of a word or phrase should necessarily be similar to its historical meaning."

*If you want to debate the validity of Wikipedia as a valid source of knoweldge please start a new topic in the lounge or another appropriate forum.

**"A.k.a. fallacy of origins, fallacy of virtue, is a fallacy of irrelevance where a conclusion is suggested based solely on something or someone's origin rather than its current meaning or context."

What is recorded in sanskrit, may be useful in finding a pre-commentarial or pre-Sri Lankanised understanding of key Pali terms.

Metta,Retro.

Simply, the point is when we look at, in differing schools of thought, the applied usages of shared cognate terminology between two extremely closely related languages, such as the Sanskrit dharma and the Pali dhamma, we see that the idea that it is usage that determines meaning is quite clear.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

>> Do you see a man wise[enlightened/ariya]in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<-- Proverbs 26:12

I'm listening to an interesting talk right now by John Peacock called Mindfulness and the Brahma Viharas and his translation of sati is "present moment recollection." I find it a rather interesting translation as it bridges the gap that keeps popping up here between the role of memory in sati and the role of present moment awareness. If you're interested in hearing Peacock's actual words go to this page and click on the first talk. (http://www.dharmaseed.org/teacher/91/?s ... ma+viharas) If you go exactly 11 minutes into the talk and listen from there then you'll hear a better explanation of what he means than what I wrote here. Seriously though, anyone interested in the term sati for practical purposes as well as out of plain curiosity should check out what he has to say.

"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

more on patisatimatta from Mindfulness Meditation Made Easy from Venerable Dhammasami

To quote in Pali from the Discourse, "Sati paccu patthita hoti yavadeva nanamatthaya patisatimatthaya" meaning "in order to reflect, we have to establish mindfulness and in order to understand things clearly as they are we have to establish mindfulness, which is bare attention."

"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"

In the section 'Right Practice.. Steady Practice' from "Food for the Heart", Ajahn Chah describes sati as recollection.

Then I realized..."Oh, that's not right, it can't be right because it's impossible to do. Standing, walking, sitting, reclining... make them all consistent. To make the postures consistent the way they explain it in the books is impossible."

But it is possible to do this: The mind... just consider the mind. To have sati, recollection, sampajañña, self awareness and pañña, all-round wisdom... this you can do. This is something that's really worth practicing. This means that while standing we have sati, while walking we have sati, while sitting we have sati, and while reclining we have sati, -- consistently. This is possible. We put awareness into our standing, walking, sitting, lying down -- into all postures.

When the mind has been trained like this it will constantly recollect Buddho, Buddho, Buddho... which is knowing. Knowing what? Knowing what is right and what is wrong at all times. Yes, this is possible. This is getting down to the real practice. That is, whether standing, walking, sitting or lying down there is continuous sati.

"Then there is the case where a certain person is practicing for the abandoning & relinquishing of acquisitions. As he is practicing for the abandoning & relinquishing of acquisitions, then — from time to time, owing to lapses in mindfulness — he is assailed by memories & resolves associated with acquisitions. Slow is the arising of his mindfulness, but then he quickly abandons [those memories & resolves], destroys them, dispels them, & wipes them out of existence. Just as when two or three drops of water fall onto an iron pan heated all day: Slow is the falling of the drops of water, but they quickly vanish & disappear. In the same way, there is the case where a certain person is practicing for the abandoning & relinquishing of acquisitions. As he is practicing for the abandoning & relinquishing of acquisitions, then — from time to time, owing to lapses in mindfulness — he is assailed by memories & resolves associated with acquisitions. Slow is the arising of his mindfulness, but then he quickly abandons [those memories & resolves], destroys them, dispels them, & wipes them out of existence. I tell you, Udayin, that this sort of person is fettered, not unfettered. Why is that? Because I have known the diversity of faculties with regard to this type of person.

"Breathing in long, he discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, he discerns, 'I am breathing out long.' Or breathing in short, he discerns, 'I am breathing in short'; or breathing out short, he discerns, 'I am breathing out short.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the entire body.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the entire body.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming bodily fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming bodily fabrication.' And as he remains thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, any memories & resolves related to the household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning his mind gathers & settles inwardly, grows unified & centered. This is how a monk develops mindfulness immersed in the body.

"Bhikkhus, I will teach you about one who is subject to decline, about one who is not subject to decline, and about the six mastered bases. Listen to that..."And how, bhikkus, is one subject to decline? Here, bhikkhus, when a bhikkhu has seen a form with the eye, there arise in him evil unwholesome states, memories and intentions connected with the fetters. If the bhikkhu tolerates them and does not abandon them, dispel them, put an end to them, and obliterate them, he should understand this thus: 'I am declining away from wholesome states. For this has been called decline by the Blessed One.'

"When, monks, a monk lives and practices like this, it occasionally happens that, through a lapse of mindfulness, evil and unskilled states arise, memories and thoughts pertaining to the fetters. His mindfulness is aroused only slowly, but then he soon abandons that state, drives it out, abolishes it, puts an end to it. Just as if, monks, a man were to let fall two or three drops of water into an iron pot that had been heated all day, those few drops would soon be wiped out and vanish — in the same way it occasionally happens to a monk living and practicing like this... but he soon puts an end to it.

In the section 'Right Practice.. Steady Practice' from "Food for the Heart", Ajahn Chah describes sati as recollection.

........This means that while standing we have sati, while walking we have sati, while sitting we have sati, and while reclining we have sati, -- consistently. This is possible. We put awareness into our standing, walking, sitting, lying down -- into all postures. When the mind has been trained like this it will constantly recollect Buddho, Buddho, Buddho... which is knowing. Knowing what? Knowing what is right and what is wrong at all times. http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books/Ajahn_Chah_Food_for_the_Heart.htm#flood

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I'm not clear how "Buddho" fits in here - how does recollection of Buddho arises from awareness of posture, and how does this equate to knowing what is right and wrong? Does he mean that the chanting of "Buddho" is used as a support ( proxy? ) for mindfulness?

porpoise wrote:I'm not clear how "Buddho" fits in here - how does recollection of Buddho arises from awareness of posture, and how does this equate to knowing what is right and wrong? Does he mean that the chanting of "Buddho" is used as a support ( proxy? ) for mindfulness?

Dwelling thus withdrawn, one recollects the dhamma and thinks it over. Whenever, monks, a monk dwelling thus withdrawn recollects that dhamma and thinks it over, on that occasion the awakening factor of sati is aroused by the monk, on that occasion the monk develops the awakening factor of sati, on that occasion the awakening factor of sati comes to fulfillment through development in the monk.

"Mahanama, you should develop this recollection of the Buddha while you are walking, while you are standing, while you are sitting, while you are lying down, while you are busy at work, while you are resting in your home crowded with children.

Remembering/recollecting is a function of awareness/knowing. Put another way, memory is a "sub-class" of the "general class" of knowledge. So, even if one is practicing sati in the canonically positivistic, strict definitionalist sense Reverend Thanissaro and Dmytro argue for, one is all ready enaged in an awareness practice (Gombrich--see quote above--asserts that the best overall translation of sati is "awareness".).

"When specific references occur in the scientific literature to the Buddhist textual sources, these references often consist in noting that the term “mindfulness” is a translation of the Pāli term sati. In Buddhist theory, however,the term sati carries connotations of memory and remembrance, making attempts to understand mindfulness as a present-centered, non-elaborative, and non- judgmental attention appear inaccurate and confused (see Bodhi 2011; Dreyfus 2011). Indeed, the term “mindfulness” seems to have been chosen by early translators of the Pāli texts because they saw parallels not with a notion of non-judgmental present-centered attention but, rather, between the Christian ethical notion of conscience and the textual usage of sati in the context of holding in mind and being inspired by certain truths, for the sake of improvement of one’s ethical character (Gethin 2011). The broad usage of the term sati is perhaps best captured by the colloquial English notion of “minding.” The Pāli texts employ sati in reference to everything from “minding” one’s livestock (MN.I.117) to “minding” one’s meditation object in practices such as loving-kindness (Sn.26), in addition to using sati specifically in the context of mindfulness meditation or, more literally,in the establishment of sati (sati-upaṭṭhāna). In this general sense, sati clearly can involve elaborative and evaluative cognitive processes. In the role sati plays in the context of mindfulness meditation, however, the involvement of memorymay be of a more limited and specific kind."

From the Five Aggregates to Phenomenal Consciousness:Towards a Cross-Cultural Cognitive Scienceby Jake H. Davis and Evan Thompson