Jaunted posits VIPR as the greater long-term problem

One actual or false flag attack; that's all it would take. People would roll over. "That's just the way the world is now." "I'd rather be safe than sorry." "We all have to give up a few freedoms for safety." "It's no big deal." "You know what the drill is; why didn't you leave earlier? Why didn't you allow more time??"

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You're right, people would probably roll over and take it. A lot of people wouldn't though. And various privacy and civil liberties organizations would sue. I'm talking about checkpoints on highways.

By the way, we've had so many politicians screaming at us to be afraid, be very afraid, that most people respond with a yawn.

I'd like to believe people wouldn't put up with it. But again, look what they're putting up with at the airport. It's become so commonplace that even we here at TUG have a hard time working up any anger over it: we in this country have accepted routine abuse, even to the point of sexual assault, to get on a plane.

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And as we've discussed, there is movement. People, one by one, are deciding not to fly. We just had a hearing yesterday. And we've yet to see what the fallout will be with this 200 thefts per day story. I doubt that JFK is an anomaly.

They're also independent contractors who can't afford to buck the system for fear of losing their jobs.

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Exactly. I said as much in this post:

. . . Well, that horse is out of the barn. But what is “informed consent” in such circumstances anyway? If you’re driving a delivery truck and have to keep to a tight schedule, how likely are you to object to being scanned? How sympathetic do you think your employer would be? Sounds like extortion to me. Sort of like what already happens at the airport.

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TSA News Blog: DHS Scanning People Everywhere Even Without Their Knowledge

Don't forget about the massive, tri-state area VIPR operation last year. And the one in Florida where they stopped people's cars. Can dig up articles. The incident barbell pointed out is just one of many.

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I'll look it up too. I heard about the VIPR operations at the bus stations, but that's different than a search on the highway.

Particularly one around Atlanta? It's absolute chaos. There's one between my office and my home on an Interstate that isn't particularly heavily traveled (particularly compared to I-20). If I do not time my departure right from the office and I hit rush hour, forget it. Even this small diversionary are with no TSA involvement is backed up a minimum of a mile.

The South's bread and butter is semi traffic in, around, and through her major cities.

And best I can tell, not a single person refused the search. I imagine we would have heard about it.

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I'm not trying to be annoying, but is this just your basic, run-of-the-mill weigh station? If so, I'm not talking about those. I'm only talking about private passenger cars that are not subject to rules regarding truckers.

Don't forget about the massive, tri-state area VIPR operation last year. And the one in Florida where they stopped people's cars. Can dig up articles. The incident barbell pointed out is just one of many.

For the second time in three days, federal, state and local law enforcement agencies have conducted a major counter-terrorism operation along I-20 in Atlanta.

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A retired military security official tells In From the Cold the Atlanta operation isn't entirely consistent with a major counter-terrorism effort or deterrent activity. The official says that type of operation would also include extensive aerial surveillance; an increased police presence at other places where tractor-trailers congregate (including truck stops), and the establishment of additional check-points in the Atlanta area. {emphasis added}

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I'm not trying to be annoying, but is this just your basic, run-of-the-mill weigh station? If so, I'm not talking about those. I'm only talking about private passenger cars that are not subject to rules regarding truckers.

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I know you aren't. I'm being rhetorical for our lurking "friends". Hi assholes from DHS!

These weigh stations could easily be set up as a diversionary point for everyone. I'm not trying to be paranoid, but the infrastructure is such that everybody could be sent through one with no problem.

TSA News Blog: Can We Still Say "No" to the Government's Warrantless Searches?

TSA News Blog: TSA Makes Its First Reported VIPR Car Checkpoint

TSA News Blog: TSA Expands Beyond Airport Screening

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Right. But --- I'm trying to distinguish an administrative search from a warrantless car search. Think of metal detectors - they're the classic administrative search. Everyone goes through them and you're only searched more if you alarm the machine (back in the good old days). The goal is to prevent people from bringing weapons onto planes. Body scanners fail the administrative search rules, as do the gropes, imo, for all of the reasons stated in EPIC's lawsuit.

The case law on car searches is pretty explicit and the goals are very different. Once a police officer has a reason to stop you, there are things he/she can and can't search for. The police are looking for criminal activity by you individually, and the search will be intrusive. Once you consent, the police will go through everything in your car including bags, glove compartments, etc., depending on what they're looking for. Do not talk to the police except to give them your driver's license, or insurance card. If asked if they can search your car, politely decline. No good can come of allowing them to search your car. The police or TSA may try to intimidate you, or make you stay put while they get a warrant, but enforcing your rights isn't always easy.

In each of the examples above, one could argue that the administrative search was appropriate - the cars were approaching the airport, and the rest were in public transportation areas similar to those at airports. Personally I don't view these types of administrative searches as reasonable, but I do think the 'other side's' argument is a defensible one.

These weigh stations could easily be set up as a diversionary point for everyone. I'm not trying to be paranoid, but the infrastructure is such that everybody could be sent through one with no problem.

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Yes, they could. Two thoughts on that.

What would that look like? Just imagine it. You've already described what the road is like when only truckers are sent to the weigh stations. What does it look like when every car is sent through? It becomes impassible and you have who knows how many cases of road rage when people are stopped to answer questions and/or searched.

Two - this kind of a search is SO vague, there is no value in it (I would argue). And it goes against all the case law on car searches. I can't imagine that this type of checkpoint would be upheld by the Supreme Court - even in today's climate.

Back to the warrantless "administrative" car searches: I put nothing past DHS/TSA in these asinine VIPR searches. Don't you know we live in a post-9/11 world?!?!!? Can't be too careful.

For instance, the lines are slower airports now take an average of 30 minutes are more to traverse with the introduction of NoS as primary screening. These airports would have lines of 10 minutes on a bad day with Shoe Carnival and War on Water fully intact, at that. They don't care about their inconvenience of you. They don't. While I was waiting for an opt-out grope at one of these airports I overheard Large Marge and her equally annoying male counterpart whose sole job was to block the WTMD with his own body discussing the now not-uncommon hour-plus waits at this airport. They both mentioned how they wished the NoS wasn't primary because it made the lines so slow. And then ended it with, "Well, it's just a job."

Traffic jams at a standstill for your safety to go on a wild goose hunt creating backups for miles and actually creating terrorist targets? That's what they already do on a daily basis in America's airports. No difference from my PoV.

Traffic jams at a standstill for your safety to go on a wild goose hunt creating backups for miles and actually creating terrorist targets? That's what they already do on a daily basis in America's airports. No difference from my PoV.

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Fortunately for us the rules for checkpoints on the roads are different than the rules at airports. With no Supreme Court decision on the current practices at airports, the TSA is able to run amok - and they do!

There are plenty of decisions available for checkpoints on roads though and the TSA will need to abide by them. I fully expect them to push the envelope, but I don't think they're going to get very far.

DUI checkpoints are generally okay (if they're done correctly)Drugs checkpoints are not okay -- and the Court explicitly distinguishes drug checkpoints/ordinary crime control from searches that go on at airports.
Checkpoints near the borders are okay when looking for illegal aliens are okay too

I'd expect to see TSA pushing their VIPR experiments at exactly the places where we're seeing them -- at roads leading to airports (because of some viewpoint that they have that we have less of an expectation of privacy there), with truckers and weigh-stations (see the reasons listed in this thread), and with people at bus stations (probably based on the same legal theories that allow for searches at airports. These areas are largely unlitigated, so who knows how the Supreme Court will rule.

But for cars on highways? The Court has been pretty clear, particularly in the drugs checkpoint case that I cited. The Court is looking for the particular purpose of the checkpoint. What would be the particular purpose of a VIPR checkpoint? To find evidence of criminal activity? The Court has already said no to that....

And by the way, Hartwell is the case that best illustrates the administrative search doctrine at airports. If you read it (it's not that painful, I promise), you'll probably agree that if airport administrative search cases involving body scanners and gropings get to the Supreme Court, the Court will likely not find the searches reasonable. (see sections 20 through 23)

And by the way, Hartwell is the case that best illustrates the administrative search doctrine at airports. If you read it (it's not that painful, I promise), you'll probably agree that if airport administrative search cases involving body scanners and gropings get to the Supreme Court, the Court will likely not find the searches reasonable. (see sections 20 through 23)

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Dear god, when will this happen??

I can't keep track of all the lawsuits out there. EPIC is still pursuing this, yes? Do you think it's likely any of these cases will make it to the Supreme Court? Really, one of those 9 (or his or her family members) needs to get groped, stripped, or otherwise abused.

In the District Court's view, these circumstances justified the officers' behavior, regardless of whose version of the rest of the story was true. "Whether defendant voluntarily produced the drugs or whether defendant was frisked," the Court stated, "the search was reasonable under the Fourth Amendment." Id. at 603.​

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I don't get this at all. The search sounds unreasonable to me. (I know they get into this further on -- I read further. I still disagree with their reasoning.)

Paragraph 7:

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Although the District Court had no difficulty reaching this result, it recognized that courts have not settled on a single framework for analyzing warrantless searches at airport checkpoints. The Court therefore considered three separate justifications for Hartwell's search, and found each sufficient.​

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Bolding mine. So the courts haven't, in fact, settled this question? So the courts -- any court? -- might still find airport searches unreasonable? Isn't that what this is saying?​