RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: South Mountain

Tim, No one is being dishonest if you are referring to me. There is some truth to what you say and I agree with you about the state, political and private

Message 1 of 25
, Apr 28, 2004

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Tim,

No one is being dishonest if you are referring to me. There is some truth to
what you say and I agree with you about the state, political and private
concerns of the South Mountain battlefields. His question about the Reno and
Garland monuments being moved, as far as I know, there are no plans afoot to
move either unless you know something I do not. Also, at this point in time
I am not associated with any group except Save Historic Antietam Foundation.
I left CMHL awhile back because of a plethora of back stabbing politics and
lip service in the name of battlefield preservation in the board of
directors' current make up. Further, I have not been terribly happy with
what the state has been up to(or not up to as the case may be)in the last
several years. I am not anyone's agent just as you are not. Just a concerned
civil war historian as you are.

Your South Mountain question seems to have resurrected naïve
assumptions about cooperative, incongruent battlefield ownership,
its purported preservation, and the likelihood of achieving any
symbiosis toward accessible park status. Complex questions require
far more than simple answers, given the disparate groups involved
possessed of wholly divergent if not incompatible objectives. Pay no
attention to that man behind the curtain.

Instead may I direct your attention to http://cwbn.blogspot.com/ for
insightful investigation into the matter, postings for 3/5, 3/10,
3/12, 3/16. This is an intermittent thread which you will easily
pick up, a welcome breath of candor.

Having waded through all this, then see http://mlis.state.md.us/PDF-
Documents/2000rs/bills/hb/hb1183t.pdf for the official language of
what South Mountain "Fake" Battlefield is and is not. It's icing
without a cake which children naturally prefer.

While the kiddies play, the house burns. Santa can't get down this
chimney.

Tim

--- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, <richard@r...> wrote:
> Thanks Kevin -- I feel a littel better.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rawlings, Kevin" <kevin.rawlings@s...>
> To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2004 2:21 PM
> Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: South Mountain
>
>
> > Richard,
> >
> > The Reno and Garland monuments art not going anywhere. The
Garland
> monumment
> > is on Central Maryland Heritage League land and the state now
owns the
> > Daniel Wise home site and the Appalachain Trail owns much of the
right of
> > way through there. Much of the land at Fox's Gap are is own by
one group
> or
> > the other or development rights have been bought up by the
state. At
> > Turner's Gap as Tim Reese described the Frostown Road are is
under
> > developement attack but the Alt 40 up the gap is protected.
> >
> > Kevin Rawlings
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

Hi Kevin, No one is referring to you; nor is anyone questioning your motives. Let s be a little less sensitive. The dishonesty I invoke is inherent and

Message 2 of 25
, Apr 28, 2004

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Hi Kevin,

No one is referring to you; nor is anyone questioning your motives.
Let's be a little less sensitive. The dishonesty I invoke is
inherent and deliberate to the entire mountain "preservation"
process, infused into its every fiber from the get-go. When it all
began back in the `80s only George Brigham and I gave a damn. George
went off the deep end; I went back to the books where I remain. The
next publishing installment appears in June.

You and I both owe Richard a bit more candor. Of course the Reno and
Garland monuments will stay put! The former has been there over a
century; the latter is little more than a headstone sunk into CMHL
land 250 yards from the site. How contrived. Richard of course knew
they would remain, posing his question in saddened rhetoric. One can
scarcely blame him, one who can appreciate D.H. Hill's dilemma.

Those of us who have been on the "inside", who have experienced
covert agendas, and who have been disgusted at the ensuing
spectacle, owe it to every person interested in these sites to tell
it like it was, is, and mostly likely will remain. The maxim is "qui
tacet consentire": silence betokens consent.

I don't like to admit it, but the grim truth is that the South
Mountain battlefield (Turner's and Fox's) is a goner. Like those
I've learned to detest, I could continue to pretend something
meaningful is afoot. But it isn't. Only egos, careers, and bank
accounts matter these days.

You have my sincere sympathy for your past efforts, much good may
they do you. But now isn't the time to let the bastards get away
with it using our good will, tax dollars, and patience. It's time we
all called a spade a spade in both historical and preservation
contexts. Go through the URLs I sited to Richard; then tell me your
blood doesn't boil.

> insightful investigation into the matter, postings for 3/5, 3/10,
> 3/12, 3/16. This is an intermittent thread which you will easily
> pick up, a welcome breath of candor.
>
> Also, if you seek honest definition of "South Mountain"
> battlefields, and the political chicanery at work behind the

The name of the road is Dahlgren Road. It s about a mile long and joins with Frost Town Road which connects to Mount Tabor Road which loops back into and back

Message 3 of 25
, Apr 12, 2007

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The name of the road is Dahlgren Road. It's about a mile long and joins
with Frost Town Road which connects to Mount Tabor Road which loops back
into and back into Alt. 40 opposite Bolivar Road. If you haven't driven the
loop I highly recommend it. I recommend starting at Mt. Tabor Road. The
last half of it heading up toward the crest will reveal some of the most
Godawful terrain imagineable for an attack. Imagine the boys in blue down
at the bottom at Frost Town Road where they assembled, having to attack up
the hill toward the crest. Has to be seen to be appreciated.
Ron Church
Manchester MD

> Just east of the Dahlgren Chapel there's a road that takes you up to a
> good
> spot. Tom Clemens can help you with the road name.and will warn you of
> the
> dangers of trying to get a tour bus up there!
>
>
>
> Harry
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com]
> On
> Behalf Of Stephen Recker
> Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 5:42 PM
> To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain
>
>
>
> Where is the best place to interpret the Turner's Gap action north of
> the National Pike? I'm talking about George Gordon Meade. I'm looking
> for a modern road name. Thanks.
>
> Stephen
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

Stephen Recker

Thanks guys. I ll head out right now. Stephen ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Message 4 of 25
, Apr 13, 2007

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Thanks guys. I'll head out right now.

Stephen

On Thursday, April 12, 2007, at 11:04 PM, Ronald Church wrote:

> The name of the road is Dahlgren Road. It's about a mile long and joins
> with Frost Town Road which connects to Mount Tabor Road which loops
> back
> into and back into Alt. 40 opposite Bolivar Road. If you haven't
> driven the
> loop I highly recommend it. I recommend starting at Mt. Tabor Road. The
> last half of it heading up toward the crest will reveal some of the
> most
> Godawful terrain imagineable for an attack. Imagine the boys in blue
> down
> at the bottom at Frost Town Road where they assembled, having to
> attack up
> the hill toward the crest. Has to be seen to be appreciated.
> Ron Church
> Manchester MD
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
> To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 10:12 PM
> Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain
>
> > Just east of the Dahlgren Chapel there's a road that takes you up to
> a
> > good
> > spot. Tom Clemens can help you with the road name.and will warn you
> of
> > the
> > dangers of trying to get a tour bus up there!
> >
> >
> >
> > Harry
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com]
> > On
> > Behalf Of Stephen Recker
> > Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 5:42 PM
> > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain
> >
> >
> >
> > Where is the best place to interpret the Turner's Gap action north of
> > the National Pike? I'm talking about George Gordon Meade. I'm looking
> > for a modern road name. Thanks.
> >
> > Stephen
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

rchurch@qis.net

Meade s forces generally fanned out across the low area and drove up the ravine on your right. Hatch followed Dahlgren Road for several hundred yards beyond

Message 5 of 25
, Apr 13, 2007

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Meade's forces generally fanned out across the low area and drove up the ravine
on your right. Hatch followed Dahlgren Road for several hundred yards beyond
Frost Town Road then turned left off of the road and advanced up the hill
through heavy woods on the left. Wish I could be there with you.

Stephen, You can also head to Zittlestown Road and the MD Park entrance, turn right and then right again, following signs for Skycroft. That road takes you

Message 6 of 25
, Apr 13, 2007

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Stephen,
You can also head to Zittlestown Road and the MD Park entrance, turn right and then right again, following signs for Skycroft. That road takes you down the other side of the ravine where Meade attacked and is also a way to view the field.
And Harry, Bite me! :-)

Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
Professor of History
Hagerstown Community College

According to Edward Porter Alexander: I was riding with Gen. Lee when we came within a mile or two of the fight [for Turner s Gap] & some one discovered a

Message 8 of 25
, Apr 13, 2007

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According to Edward Porter Alexander:
"I was riding with Gen. Lee when we came within a mile or two of the
fight [for Turner's Gap] & some one discovered a small party of
people on what seemed to be an old tower on the mountain top [the
Washington Monument] about a mile north of the pass. There were some
indications that it might be a signal party of the enemy sending
messages of our approach, &, itching to have some personal role in
a fight, I suggested to Gen. Lee that I might take a few men & go
recapture it. He approved & had eight men sent with me from some
brigade, I forget whose. I got in cover of some woods & then struck
up the mountain side &, after a hard, hot climb, at last got up &
around the tower (which seemed to have been built originally for a
windmill) before the party on it knew of my approach. But they were
plainly all natives of the vicinity attracted by the firing and up
there to see the battle. I was quite disgusted at the peaceful
character of my capture & left them after seeing that the position
gave no valuable view of the enemy's ground & I pushed on to the
front & right, towards the firing." Pages 142-143, Fighting for the
Confederacy.

According to the footnotes of the book, the tower was actually
effectively in ruins by 1862. If EPA didn't think it gave a good
view of the federals, could the same be said of the confederate army
moving out of Boonsboro? I wonder, since it would be something one
would assume he would think about.

Anybody know where the 8 men came from?

--- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, jdpolaski@... wrote:
>
> I have a good question for the group. Does anyone know of Signal
flags being
> used at the Washington Monument? And if so what units were they
and what
> communications did they send out.
>
>
>
> ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Stephen Recker

Tom, That is great. Thanks. Now I ll just stand back out of the way... Stephen

Message 9 of 25
, Apr 13, 2007

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Tom,

That is great. Thanks.

Now I'll just stand back out of the way...<g>

Stephen

On Friday, April 13, 2007, at 03:53 PM, Thomas Clemens wrote:

> Stephen,
> You can also head to Zittlestown Road and the MD Park entrance, turn
> right and then right again, following signs for Skycroft. That road
> takes you down the other side of the ravine where Meade attacked and
> is also a way to view the field.
> And Harry, Bite me! :-)
>
> Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
> Professor of History
> Hagerstown Community College

Thomas Clemens

It would have been more useful to the the Union thant the COnfederates, but EPA s account is the only real solid mention of it. It was uded i nthe Gettysburg

Message 10 of 25
, Apr 14, 2007

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It would have been more useful to the the Union thant the COnfederates, but EPA's account is the only real solid mention of it. It was uded i nthe Gettysburg by Union signalman, including Wm. J. L. Nicodemus.

Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
Professor of History
Hagerstown Community College

According to Edward Porter Alexander:
"I was riding with Gen. Lee when we came within a mile or two of the
fight [for Turner's Gap] & some one discovered a small party of
people on what seemed to be an old tower on the mountain top [the
Washington Monument] about a mile north of the pass. There were some
indications that it might be a signal party of the enemy sending
messages of our approach, &, itching to have some personal role in
a fight, I suggested to Gen. Lee that I might take a few men & go
recapture it. He approved & had eight men sent with me from some
brigade, I forget whose. I got in cover of some woods & then struck
up the mountain side &, after a hard, hot climb, at last got up &
around the tower (which seemed to have been built originally for a
windmill) before the party on it knew of my approach. But they were
plainly all natives of the vicinity attracted by the firing and up
there to see the battle. I was quite disgusted at the peaceful
character of my capture & left them after seeing that the position
gave no valuable view of the enemy's ground & I pushed on to the
front & right, towards the firing." Pages 142-143, Fighting for the
Confederacy.

According to the footnotes of the book, the tower was actually
effectively in ruins by 1862. If EPA didn't think it gave a good
view of the federals, could the same be said of the confederate army
moving out of Boonsboro? I wonder, since it would be something one
would assume he would think about.

Anybody know where the 8 men came from?

--- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, jdpolaski@... wrote:
>
> I have a good question for the group. Does anyone know of Signal
flags being
> used at the Washington Monument? And if so what units were they
and what
> communications did they send out.
>
>
>
> ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Stephen Recker

Does anyone know of any writings regarding trouble citizens of Maryland got into for joining Lee s army during the Maryland Campaign? Thanks. Stephen

Message 11 of 25
, Apr 19, 2007

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Does anyone know of any writings regarding trouble citizens of Maryland
got into for joining Lee's army during the Maryland Campaign? Thanks.

Stephen

G E Mayers

Stephen, Not sure, but there is an interesting account of a citizen of Pennsylvania who left the state to try to jine up with Lee s Army during the same

Message 12 of 25
, Apr 19, 2007

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Stephen,

Not sure, but there is an interesting account of a citizen of
Pennsylvania who left the state to try to jine up with Lee's Army
during the same campaign, was captured and then when he returned home
to his home town under guard as a prisoner of war, it got dicey for a
bit.

Scott Mingus Sr. might be able to give you the story if you contact
him at scottmingus@...

Yr. Obt. Svt.
G E "Gerry" Mayers

To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on
one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the Union, a
passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the Almighty
God. --Anonymous

> Not sure, but there is an interesting account of a citizen of
> Pennsylvania who left the state to try to jine up with Lee's Army
> during the same campaign, was captured and then when he returned home
> to his home town under guard as a prisoner of war, it got dicey for a
> bit.

G E Mayers

Stephen, Yes, it is. Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on one s mother s side, is an

Message 14 of 25
, Apr 20, 2007

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Stephen,

Yes, it is.

Yr. Obt. Svt.
G E "Gerry" Mayers

To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on
one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the Union, a
passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the Almighty
God. --Anonymous

> Thanks. maybe it's in his new book.
>
> Stephen
>
> On Thursday, April 19, 2007, at 09:08 PM, G E Mayers wrote:
>
>> Not sure, but there is an interesting account of a citizen of
>> Pennsylvania who left the state to try to jine up with Lee's Army
>> during the same campaign, was captured and then when he returned
>> home
>> to his home town under guard as a prisoner of war, it got dicey for
>> a
>> bit.
>
>

colliszouave@yahoo.com

Besides John Hoptak s book and the work of Carman, edited and annotated by Clemens, what others are must-haves re: South Mountain? Respectfully, Mike Peters

Message 15 of 25
, Apr 17, 2011

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Besides John Hoptak's book and the work of Carman, edited and annotated by Clemens, what others are "must-haves" re: South Mountain?

Respectfully,

Mike Peters
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

G E Mayers

Mike; Although it does have many errors in it, I would still recommend J M Priest s book Before Antietam as a good guide for South Mountain fighting. Also,

Message 16 of 25
, Apr 17, 2011

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Mike;

Although it does have many errors in it, I would still recommend J M
Priest's book "Before Antietam" as a good guide for South Mountain fighting.
Also, the War College Guide to Antietam has excellent section on South
Mountain, but I understand (IIRC???) it might be out of print.

Yr. Obt. Svt.
G E "Gerry" Mayers

To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on one's
mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the Union, a passport to
any foreign country, and a benediction from the Almighty God. --Anonymous

Besides John Hoptak's book and the work of Carman, edited and annotated by
Clemens, what others are "must-haves" re: South Mountain?

Respectfully,

Mike Peters
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jim Rosebrock

Mike You should also consider Tim Reese s book on the Battle of Crampton s Gap. It is titled Sealed With Their Lives. I don t know if you can get it new.

Message 17 of 25
, Apr 17, 2011

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Mike
You should also consider Tim Reese's book on the Battle of Crampton's Gap. It
is titled Sealed With Their Lives. I don't know if you can get it new. Amazon
has it here. It is out of print (I think) and a little expensive but worth your
consideration.
Regards
Jim Rosebrock

Although it does have many errors in it, I would still recommend J M
Priest's book "Before Antietam" as a good guide for South Mountain fighting.
Also, the War College Guide to Antietam has excellent section on South
Mountain, but I understand (IIRC???) it might be out of print.

Yr. Obt. Svt.
G E "Gerry" Mayers

To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on one's
mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the Union, a passport to
any foreign country, and a benediction from the Almighty God. --Anonymous

Besides John Hoptak's book and the work of Carman, edited and annotated by
Clemens, what others are "must-haves" re: South Mountain?

Respectfully,

Mike Peters
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

G E Mayers

Mike; You might also find the late Joseph Harsh s book Taken at the Flood to have much useful information as well. Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers To Be A

Message 19 of 25
, Apr 17, 2011

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Mike;

You might also find the late Joseph Harsh's book "Taken at the Flood" to
have much useful information as well.

Yr. Obt. Svt.
G E "Gerry" Mayers

To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on one's
mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the Union, a passport to
any foreign country, and a benediction from the Almighty God. --Anonymous

Although it does have many errors in it, I would still recommend J M
Priest's book "Before Antietam" as a good guide for South Mountain
fighting.
Also, the War College Guide to Antietam has excellent section on South
Mountain, but I understand (IIRC???) it might be out of print.

Yr. Obt. Svt.
G E "Gerry" Mayers

To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on one's
mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the Union, a passport to
any foreign country, and a benediction from the Almighty God. --Anonymous