<div dir="ltr"><div><div># niiicely done...<br><br></div>end comments<br><br><br></div>message ends<br>____________________________________________________________________________________<br></div><div class="gmail_extra">
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 5:34 PM, Kellan Jacobs <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:kellan@grokbsd.com" target="_blank">kellan@grokbsd.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Hey Everyone,<br>
<br>
I have a few thoughts on this. First I should state that I am one of those people who donated during the pledge drive and I have been teaching the Python class at NB since the beginning. First while I like what your trying to do Danny with having the NB101 sessions. While I love the idea of the class I would take issue with this being used as a litmus test to give people access to the building.<br>

<br>
In my own case I have been teaching at NB and contributing to the community for quite some time now. I feel I have put in my time helping make noisebridge a better place. Being forced to attend a 5 week class just so I can contribute to my community after having done so for so long is asking a little much.<br>

<br>
Secondly in your fundraising email you stated that any donation of $10 or more would award you with a key to NB. While I donated out of NB need, I am sure there are many that made the decision because of this promise. To back out on your promise now after you received the funds from us is not only unfair but bait and switch. Maybe this class could be offered going forward.<br>

<br>
Third - I would like to comment on the general idea of the door code. I think the idea of giving door codes to paying members of the community is general a good idea. We can simply deactivate their code when they choose to stop paying membership.<br>

<br>
Lastly - As one of the noisebridge instructors I have had times when the door is broken or no one will answer it. I have had to call one of my students and have them come and let me into the space so I could teach our class. This is simply not ok. There needs to be a some trusted people who have keys to NB.<br>

<br>
Moving forward I think NB Should honor the requests door codes for those who contributed. It is the right thing to do, but I think having a better policy going forward would be perfectly ok.<br>
<br>
Lastly in picking this process I want to tell you the reason it took me so long to financially support noisebridge. The process is simply too difficult. I have often looked at the membership page and thought about becoming a full dues paying member. But the process is way too hard. I can access the space without contributing but to contribute I have to jump through a bunch of hoops. I am currently paying the 80 membership fee, but I don't know if I can find two people who are actual members to sponsor me. Everyone I have asked are not actual paying members. The reason I bring this up is that when you are making this new door code/key policy please remember my reasons for not contributing and consider it when making the new policy. Please make one that is not too much work. We want to be a welcoming and open place and making too many rules in an anarchy to keep people out is just not the way to build a community.<br>

<br>
Thanks,<br>
<br>
Kellan Jacobs<br>
<br>
On 9 Apr 2013, at 15:53, Danny O'Brien wrote:<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
This is exactly what I wanted, including the bit at the end where you tell<br>
me off for envisaging some sort of mad rulemaking process.<br>
<br>
I am personally a bit sceptical about the doorcode-as-door-opener thing<br>
working, and still dumb on the NOISEBRIDGE PEOPLE bit, but I the bit I can<br>
help with is getting out more codes to donors (so there's more people who<br>
can both come in and let people in easily), and some sort of cultural<br>
acculturation thing.<br>
<br>
(Buried in this thread so as to not get people's hopes up too much)<br>
<br>
I am going to (haphazardly) start organizing the long mooted Noisebridge<br>
101 session on Mondays at 6.00 (when it's not technoactivism mondays). I'm<br>
travelling slightly more than usual in the next few weeks, so it will<br>
really be extra haphazard for a bit, but I will try to get other people to<br>
host while I am away.<br>
<br>
People attending 5 sessions will get a door code, a wiki account, a shell<br>
account, a PGP key signed by their fellow Noisebridigans, and a stamp in<br>
their hackerspace passport showing that they are a Noisebridge Most<br>
Excellency.<br>
<br>
Things you will learn will be:<br>
<br>
A Brief History of Techno-Anarchy: Free Culture, Hacker Culture, and<br>
Noisebridge Culture<br>
Noisebridge University -- Which Classes And Meetups Are For You?<br>
You Are So Cypherpunk -- Basic Digital Security at Noisebridge and the World<br>
How to use the Wiki, and Other Eldritch Virtual Arts<br>
Creepus Expelliarmus! Role-playing Awkward Noisebridge Situations<br>
Discordianism, Consenso, and Tales of High Drama: Noisebridge Folk Mythology<br>
Safety Third! Basic safety and Third Aid<br>
Ask And Tell: The Dork's Guide To Excellent Social Interaction<br>
Rollercoaster Hardware Tour: The Lasercutter, Vinyl Cutter, and Other<br>
Awesomesss<br>
Using and Contributing to Free Software: Linux, Mozilla, Plan 9, and<br>
Noisebridge's Pony<br>
<br>
What do people think?<br>
any other suggestions?<br>
<br>
d.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
d.<br>
<br>
<br>
d.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 2:39 AM, Jake <<a href="mailto:jake@spaz.org" target="_blank">jake@spaz.org</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
On Sat, 6 Apr 2013, Danny O'Brien wrote:<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Yeah, I think that the DOOR button is actually broken or *something*,<br>
and that's what's annoying people right now.<br>
Jake you know the door system better than anyone at this point -- is<br>
there something that could be (sporadically or not) preventing the DOOR<br>
button from working?<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
I am going to assume someone disabled it. They should have made an<br>
announcement or something on the list. I made announcements several times<br>
that i was going to do it and was met with approval, but i never got around<br>
to it. I think it's a good idea and we should get used to it.<br>
<br>
<br>
There seems to be a bunch of things like timers hanging off the door<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
system downstairs. Could they be causing problems?<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
the stuff downstairs has nothing to do with the door button. There is a<br>
conventional 24-hour light timer for the lights that are supposed to<br>
illuminate people outside the gate at night (so we can see them on the<br>
camera) and a 12v power adaptor for the camera. There is also a 12v<br>
adaptor that goes nowhere, for the hard drive that used to be there and is<br>
gone now. The DOOR button wiring and buzzer wiring is all put away like it<br>
was before Noisebridge arrived.<br>
<br>
<br>
Is there anyway we can simplify what we already have without causing<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
problems to your future plans?<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
This is not about my plans. Noisebridge is a collective activity and we<br>
should discuss things together. Anyone interested in working on<br>
infrastructure should communicate with other people who are interested for<br>
maximum effect. I can try to answer any questions if they are asked of me.<br>
<br>
<br>
Asked what? I know I'm probably being stupid, but after all these months<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Here's where i initially suggested it:<br>
<a href="https://www.noisebridge.net/**pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/**" target="_blank">https://www.noisebridge.net/**<u></u>pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/<u></u>**</a><br>
2013-January/034216.html<<a href="https://www.noisebridge.net/pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/2013-January/034216.html" target="_blank">https<u></u>://www.noisebridge.net/<u></u>pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/<u></u>2013-January/034216.html</a>><br>

<br>
here's what YOU said about it on 17 January of this year:<br>
<br>
<a href="https://www.noisebridge.net/**pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/**" target="_blank">https://www.noisebridge.net/**<u></u>pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/<u></u>**</a><br>
2013-January/034236.html<<a href="https://www.noisebridge.net/pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/2013-January/034236.html" target="_blank">https<u></u>://www.noisebridge.net/<u></u>pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/<u></u>2013-January/034236.html</a>><br>

<br>
I also announced it at a meeting, and everyone thought it was great:<br>
<br>
<a href="https://www.noisebridge.net/**wiki/Meeting_Notes_2013_02_19" target="_blank">https://www.noisebridge.net/**<u></u>wiki/Meeting_Notes_2013_02_19</a><<a href="https://www.noisebridge.net/wiki/Meeting_Notes_2013_02_19" target="_blank"><u></u>https://www.noisebridge.net/<u></u>wiki/Meeting_Notes_2013_02_19</a>><br>

<br>
<br>
I'm sure not entirely sure what the plan is. I *think* it's this:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
1) Door code to get in. Door code available to... who? Not sure. People<br>
who mail <a href="mailto:doorcodes@noisebridge.net" target="_blank">doorcodes@noisebridge.net</a> (not a real email address)? People<br>
who come to Meeting? Probably the latter.<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
I have been providing codes to people who email me and tell me enough<br>
about themselves that I think they belong at noisebridge. You can do the<br>
same. Someone should create the email address doorcodes@noisebridge so<br>
that myself and others with the ability to add codes can share the labor of<br>
giving people codes. I don't want a million people emailing me at my<br>
private email address for codes. We should share the work.<br>
<br>
But yes, some infrastructure for code distribution would be appropriate.<br>
<br>
I do NOT think we should make it so that anyone with a code can just<br>
create more codes. That is not reasonable. We need to have a flow of<br>
codes out from the people who help make noisebridge happen, and maintain<br>
control of that flow of access.<br>
<br>
<br>
2) Buzzer works to let people in, but you have to either go and press<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
the DOOR button or... type a code? Typing a code means that you've<br>
agreed to greet people?<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
I don't know what you mean my buzzer. There is a "doorbell" which makes<br>
an annoying noise. I want to adjust it so that when it is rung, a light<br>
begins blinking inside the space (near the door) and the "doorbell" sound<br>
is muted to a lower volume when pressed, until either the electric latch<br>
opens the door or a few minutes expire.<br>
<br>
If someone uses their code to open the door for someone else I presume<br>
they will make sure the person they let in belongs at noisebridge. At<br>
least more so than with the current setup where anyone can just push the<br>
door button.<br>
<br>
<br>
3) Keys still work. DOOR button will still work.<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
the keys have always worked and will continue to work. The DOOR button<br>
has been disabled in favour of using codes, either at the keypad near the<br>
intercom or on ones Android app, or from a webpage on ones' PC.<br>
<br>
<br>
Does that sound right? Are there extra stages in the future?<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
the flamethrowers are being cobbled together but we need bigger solenoid<br>
valves, the ones we have keep getting stuck open.<br>
<br>
<br>
Incidentally, I asked Jake if I could give door codes to everyone who is<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
subscribing to Pay Noisebridge. He said yes -- I think it's a good idea. Do<br>
other people think that's a good idea?<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
I think that if people can operate email and have made a commitment to<br>
support noisebridge to the tune of $10 per month they should definitely be<br>
able to have a code. Those people are likely capable of a reasonable<br>
conversation and are presumably willing to come to a meeting to discuss<br>
things if their behavior ever descends toward sleeping in the space or<br>
other unpleasantries. It's a low bar i'm setting, but it's better than<br>
propping the door open, which is effectively what we've been doing.<br>
<br>
<br>
Yeah, but the problem is that lots of people like coming to visit us.<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Almost none of them are bad people. The bad people will (and have) worked<br>
out ways of getting keys or codes, or whatever.<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
I think it's great that people come to visit. I look forward to the day<br>
when MORE NOISEBRIDGE PEOPLE hang out at noisebridge, having a good time,<br>
rather than being repelled by its occupation by people from "the street".<br>
<br>
When MORE NOISEBRIDGE PEOPLE hang out at noisebridge, visitors ringing the<br>
doorbell will NOT be ignored but instead NOISEBRIDGE PEOPLE will rush to<br>
the camera and intercom to see who is there, and welcome them in with a<br>
proper introduction. If whoever is there can't be bothered to say hello<br>
through the intercom, or is recognized by one of the several NOISEBRIDGE<br>
PEOPLE as a sleeper or stealer or just known to be not interesting enough<br>
to buzz in, those people will talk about it and perhaps tell the person<br>
that Noisebridge isn't here right now so they can't come in.<br>
<br>
<br>
The accepted cultural fix for this is to encourage people to greet and<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
check out people. But I agree that locking new people out is not a great<br>
side-effect of trying to encourage this.<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
If there is nobody at noisebridge with a code willing to let new people<br>
in, or willing to go down the steps to let people in, then it's not a good<br>
time for those people to get a good impression of noisebridge, don't you<br>
agree? I would rather they fail to enter at 2am on a friday night and<br>
instead come back saturday afternoon when hackers are up and hanging out<br>
and eager to give them a tour. Also if those people get on IRC someone can<br>
remotely let them in if they have a code.<br>
<br>
the fact is, our extreme open-door policy has allowed too many people<br>
whose habits and presence discourages our core membership demographic from<br>
wanting to be at noisebridge. That is a problem worth solving.<br>
<br>
<br>
5. There is a switch on the intercom to turn off the doorbell, if it<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
is annoying you and you don't feel like answering the door. Please<br>
turn it back on when you leave.<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
I don't think anyone understands all of those switches. I don't.<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
there is only one switch and it is very clearly labeled. In english!<br>
<br>
<br>
6. I will be adding an automatic mute for the doorbell, which turns<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
on a blinking light over the door and reduces the volume of the<br>
doorbell until someone buzzes the door or a few minutes pass. Or<br>
you could do it.<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Why is this a good idea? This just seems to be stopping people who buzz<br>
from coming in, based on how grumpy at inconveniences people are inside.<br>
We should maximise the convienience for new people *and* for people<br>
inside. Punishing either of these people to handle bad people seems to<br>
be the wrong incentive system.<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
If the people in the space are not letting people in who are outside,<br>
either because they don't have a code or because they are grumpy, or more<br>
likely because it's 2AM and they don't want anyone without a code coming<br>
in, it's better to soften the sound of the doorbell and supplement it with<br>
a gently blinking reminder light for a few minutes don't you think?<br>
<br>
Otherwise people in the space are more likely to flip the DOORBELL SILENT<br>
switch (which I did not install but i did label) and forget to flip it<br>
back. I think gentle softening of the doorbell for a few minutes when it's<br>
clearly being ignored is a good idea.<br>
<br>
<br>
I'm pretty sure that a large number of what problems we have come from<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
regular or second-time visitors, not newcomers.<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
I agree that people who abuse noisebridge have usually been there a few<br>
times before, but I also think that those people tend to NOT have a code.<br>
And part of the reason they don't have a code is because if they tried to<br>
get one, which they wouldn't bother trying, they would be refused.<br>
<br>
<br>
In short, if someone is in the building they are already our<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
(Noisebridge's) responsibility.<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
I follow the mailing list, and I still don't really understand this<br>
either. What are the scenarios where someone gets buzzed in, but we<br>
don't let them in through the door, thus causing them to wander the<br>
building, terrifying the residents? Under what situations would this not<br>
already happen, but would be fixed by any of the variants of the system<br>
you're proposing?<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
I have already written too many times the same post about how bad it would<br>
be if you tried to put a lock at the top of the steps. By the time someone<br>
ascends the steps and is standing on the other side of the door looking at<br>
you, if you refuse to let them in you're going to just piss them off until<br>
the next person coming up the stairs has to get in, and then they assault<br>
you.<br>
<br>
Or they will just learn to take up the elevator instead, further wearing<br>
away the last scraps of rust holding that thing together. I honestly think<br>
this issue is so absurd and dead that I don't want to even address it<br>
anymore and I would almost rather see what happens if people try it.<br>
<br>
If people are not welcome inside noisebridge, the proper place to lock<br>
them out is at the sidewalk. I am not going to argue this point anymore.<br>
<br>
<br>
I know you talk a lot about your system, Jake, but I *really* don't<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
understand it. Everytime you explain it to me, I just have more<br>
questions. And I know it's annoying for you, but I don't think I'm the<br>
only one, if only because you regularly have to write emails like this<br>
to people who don't get what's going on.<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
I don't have a system. Noisebridge has a system, with various parts. Most<br>
of it is well documented. I know about much of it. If you have a<br>
particular question for me just ask it instead of writing a big paragraph<br>
accusing me of being a secret holder.<br>
<br>
<br>
I would absolutely love you to just write out the whole thing, finally<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
and once and for all, and let everyone critique and improve the plan.<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
I don't know what you want me to write out. 2169 mission has a metal gate<br>
keeping people out from the street. You can open it with a key, or a BART<br>
card, or you can activate an electrical solenoid by triggering a computer<br>
called minotaur.<br>
<br>
you can cause minotaur to open the gate either by typing a valid code into<br>
the payphone outside the gate, or into a keypad upstairs above the<br>
intercom. Or you can put a code into the android app. Or there's a<br>
webpage i think. There is a DOOR button but it apparently doesn't work<br>
anymore, which I think is good.<br>
<br>
i don't understand why you're suddenly acting like noisebridge operates on<br>
a deterministic systemized rulemaking process and you're demanding that I<br>
explain to you how it works.<br>
<br>
-jake<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
______________________________<u></u>_________________<br>
Noisebridge-discuss mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net" target="_blank">Noisebridge-discuss@lists.<u></u>noisebridge.net</a><br>
<a href="https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss" target="_blank">https://www.noisebridge.net/<u></u>mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-<u></u>discuss</a><br>
</blockquote>
______________________________<u></u>_________________<br>
Noisebridge-discuss mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net" target="_blank">Noisebridge-discuss@lists.<u></u>noisebridge.net</a><br>
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</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><p style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><b><span style="font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">~the quieter you become,
the more you are able to hear...</span></b></p>
</div>