He would be omnicient enought to know what would convince me...even though I currently don't know what would; and he would be omnipotent enough to do said convincing.

My point exactly, He doesn't want to convince you.Don't you get it?

That's it. I'm calling Poe on SERPENT KILLA here. It's the only way to make any sense of his posts in the majority of this thread. Because what I've gathered (and others have more or less iterated) is that SERPENT KILLA believes that there are people who do not deserve to be tortured for eternity, but will be tortured for eternity because they are supposed to be tortured for eternity.

This is pretty close to cartoonish-supervillainy right here.

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"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

Oh the bright side, when we get to the hell I don't believe in, Serpent Killa will be sitting right there beside us, because nobody that indifferent to suffering could ever get into the heaven I don't believe in.

But technically speaking, his god is infinitely indifferent to that infinite suffering, and he's just being on his deity's side.

You know, like the brown shirts marching behind their führer. Just followin' orders!(Godwin's Law citation)

I believe there is a major subtle confusion going on, from Screwtape's last response. I thought of it a few hours after I posted my last response.

SK's theology is that God chooses you. This means that God could sit around in our sky all day, saying: "I'm God, foolish mortals: Bwahahaha. See if you can hit me with missiles! See if you can fathom my next super trick. See if you can heal this donkey!" God could give us ample proof of his existence, and then say: "I choose who goes to heaven of Hell, and there is nothing you can do about it. Also, I'm not going to indicate who I have chosen."

Christians have dealt with their bizarre faith idea by confusing evidence of God, with being chosen. So, typically, if God gives them any sign at all, they are so desperate to believe, that they interpret the sign as them being chosen, because obviously God wouldn't give a sign to someone unchosen.

The apparent converse of this, is that God would never reveal anything of significance to anyone unchosen, except for a range of incorrect contradictory things, such as the Bible, Quran, Bhagavad Ghita. He would do miracles, but they would be unvconvincing, and only good enough to fool someone into belief, or convince people who already believe. He would send us false proofs, such as DNA information, universal existence, prophecy that never works, messiahs that you can't find, and sensational Fox News stories.

Rule (1) God only reveals himself to the chosen.Rule (2) God never reveals himself to the unchosen, except by false miracles and misinformation, such as the Bible.Rule (3) You can never actually tell if you've been chosen or not.

The only problem with this Christian bullshit, is it goes against (1) Judaism, (2) their own way of thinking.

In Judaism, God loves Jews (who live in Israel; his chosen people), and if you adhere to God's laws, he loves you more. However, the lie of the Christian approach is that they are in such a desperate struggle to prove God exists, even though God deliberately hides. (And, as many people have already pointed out, in this thread, why does SK bother to tell us, if we have no choice in the matter?)

The only conclusion I can come to is that: Christians think that they can bullshit you into believing God, so that God will then bless you.

If that's the case, then why don't they state that clearly in the Bible? The answer is that: if the Bible told us the truth, about it all being a lie, then it would be telling us the truth. You have to respect the consistency, there.

YES. George, I believe in God and I believe the bible."No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it."(1 Corinthians 10:13)Did Abraham kill his son?

This is a sincere question, is something like this post considered 'preaching'?I am trying my best to follow the rules here.

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HAVE A GOOD LIFE BECAUSE LIFE IS SHORT AND THERE IS NOTHING AFTER THAT.IF THERE IS SOMETHING AFTER THAT, I AM NOT SORRY BECAUSE YOU DESERVE IT.

YES. George, I believe in God and I believe the bible."No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it."(1 Corinthians 10:13)Did Abraham kill his son?

This is a sincere question, is something like this post considered 'preaching'?I am trying my best to follow the rules here.

Abraham, in the story, did not kill his son, because as the story goes, Yahweh called it off at the last second. It was made to appear that Abraham would go as far as to kill his own son in order to please Yahweh.

But, to my question, are you so confident that God would call off the command to kill your own child, that you answered yes? Or, are you confident that God would never ask you to do such a thing?

And, for argument;s sake, let's say you went through with the deed, and you were now on trial for the murder of an innocent child. What do you think people would think of you, as they watched the trial unfold, and you proclaimed that god told you to kill your own child? do you believe that there are any Christians who would sympathize with you, and support your defense?

I believe there is a major subtle confusion going on, from Screwtape's last response. I thought of it a few hours after I posted my last response.

SK's theology is that God chooses you. This means that God could sit around in our sky all day, saying: "I'm God, foolish mortals: Bwahahaha. See if you can hit me with missiles! See if you can fathom my next super trick. See if you can heal this donkey!" God could give us ample proof of his existence, and then say: "I choose who goes to heaven of Hell, and there is nothing you can do about it. Also, I'm not going to indicate who I have chosen."

Christians have dealt with their bizarre faith idea by confusing evidence of God, with being chosen. So, typically, if God gives them any sign at all, they are so desperate to believe, that they interpret the sign as them being chosen, because obviously God wouldn't give a sign to someone unchosen.

The apparent converse of this, is that God would never reveal anything of significance to anyone unchosen, except for a range of incorrect contradictory things, such as the Bible, Quran, Bhagavad Ghita. He would do miracles, but they would be unvconvincing, and only good enough to fool someone into belief, or convince people who already believe. He would send us false proofs, such as DNA information, universal existence, prophecy that never works, messiahs that you can't find, and sensational Fox News stories.

Rule (1) God only reveals himself to the chosen.Rule (2) God never reveals himself to the unchosen, except by false miracles and misinformation, such as the Bible.Rule (3) You can never actually tell if you've been chosen or not.

The only problem with this Christian bullshit, is it goes against (1) Judaism, (2) their own way of thinking.

In Judaism, God loves Jews (who live in Israel; his chosen people), and if you adhere to God's laws, he loves you more. However, the lie of the Christian approach is that they are in such a desperate struggle to prove God exists, even though God deliberately hides. (And, as many people have already pointed out, in this thread, why does SK bother to tell us, if we have no choice in the matter?)

The only conclusion I can come to is that: Christians think that they can bullshit you into believing God, so that God will then bless you.

If that's the case, then why don't they state that clearly in the Bible? The answer is that: if the Bible told us the truth, about it all being a lie, then it would be telling us the truth. You have to respect the consistency, there.

God isn't fair and He won't "bless" anyone!!!! What difference does it make if you are born heir to the Heinz fortune or starving in Ethiopia? The Bible talks about this!!!! The guy who wrote 2/3 of the New Testament was beaten, shipwrecked, bitten by a poisonous snake, jailed, beaten again, scoffed at in such a way that makes the ridicule you put on us look like a girl scout Sunday school class heaping praise on each other...what difference does a persons lot in life make?

How do I maintain may patience????!!!!!

When the Christians were being persecuted during Roman times, Roman soldiers led 200 Christians out onto a frozen lake and made them strip naked (it was winter). If they denounced Jesus, they could enter a shanty near the lake where there was a warm fire and clothes for them to put on before their release. The Christians started chanting "200 believers........" When one took up the Roman soldiers offer, the chant became "199 believers....." Shortly after the apostate entered the shanty, the Roman soldier charged with guarding him exited the shanty, took off his clothes, and walked onto the ice changing the chant back to "200 believers...."

This is not proven with observational science. Only historical science using eyewitness accounts.

What does it matter how "blessed you are"?

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Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Why don't we start with all the people God commands SK to kill before we get to her child.....the list is long ,,,,SK could start killing all who work the sabbath,adulterers,heathens........and so on. that should keep SK busy for a few years......then she can kill the kid

SK why do you ignore the word of God? He commands these things of you,but then again he also gives you the commandment "thou shalt not kill"......and then the next paragraph tells you to kill thousands....even babies

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There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

I personally believe God will never ask me to do such thing.But for argument's sake, if God ever did ask.

I believe God will either call it off last second, if not I believe God will give me enough faith to go through whatever lies ahead of me. (faith comes from God)

Of course my fellow Christians will call me crazy.

Thanks for being honest. In today's time, thousands of years after Yahweh entered the human scene, I think it would be very, very difficult for a person to claim that God asked them to kill their own child. But sadly, it has happened more than once.

God isn't fair and He won't "bless" anyone!!!! What difference does it make if you are born heir to the Heinz fortune or starving in Ethiopia? The Bible talks about this!!!! The guy who wrote 2/3 of the New Testament was beaten, shipwrecked, bitten by a poisonous snake, jailed, beaten again, scoffed at in such a way that makes the ridicule you put on us look like a girl scout Sunday school class heaping praise on each other...what difference does a persons lot in life make?

Wow, not only did you completely forget to complete your thought here ("what difference does it make"), but you managed to offend anyone who suffers by trivializing all suffering systematically. Paul took his suffering on. He chose to make a stink about a new religion and chose to offend his fellow Jews by suggesting yhwh had humbled himself to become a man (which would have been like a religious Jew humbling himself to become a woman - ain't gonna happen thankyouverymuch). He chose to tell people a story and organize a religious following. No one chooses autism. No one chooses tay sachs disease. No one chooses schizophrenia or Parkinson's or polio or a freak fall from a horse severing the spinal cord. No one chooses to be born with nonverbal learning disorder or cerebral palsy. No one chooses to loose a child. No one chooses to be lonely. What difference does a person's lot in life make? Jesus H Bald-headed Christ, what an arrogant offensive death knell to all that is good in the world your christian religion is.

When the Christians were being persecuted during Roman times, Roman soldiers led 200 Christians out onto a frozen lake and made them strip naked (it was winter). If they denounced Jesus, they could enter a shanty near the lake where there was a warm fire and clothes for them to put on before their release. The Christians started chanting "200 believers........" When one took up the Roman soldiers offer, the chant became "199 believers....." Shortly after the apostate entered the shanty, the Roman soldier charged with guarding him exited the shanty, took off his clothes, and walked onto the ice changing the chant back to "200 believers...."

Why not emphasize the guy that left the ice to go into the shanty? After all, he was the only one smart enough to get out of the cold. He must have said to himself, "I never really bought that horseshit anyway. Look at all them fools out there freezing to death. Bunch of idiots! LOL!" And once he gets back to the shanty, the guy that was supposed to guard him leaves? Guess who the only survivor was going to be?

BTW, do they ever say whether or not the Romans kill them all while God stood by watching and doing nothing?

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Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

I personally believe God will never ask me to do such thing.But for argument's sake, if God ever did ask.

I believe God will either call it off last second, if not I believe God will give me enough faith to go through whatever lies ahead of me. (faith comes from God)

Of course my fellow Christians will call me crazy.

Thanks for being honest. In today's time, thousands of years after Yahweh entered the human scene, I think it would be very, very difficult for a person to claim that God asked them to kill their own child. But sadly, it has happened more than once.

like the woman who drowned her kids,because God told her in order to save them she had to kill them. SK is she a liar or is she mentally ill OR did God command her to save her kids by killing them?

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There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

If you think have chosen to be an 'atheist', and planning on staying in 'atheism' do you think that is your destiny?

How do you know you will stay in atheism until you die?

I don't.

But are you trying to tell me that EVERYONE will believe before they die? EVERYONE beleives at the end, and is saved? BEcause that is the ONLY way that your "god chooses....." argument can hold. Only by stretching your logic to breaking point can you keep your god loving....and in doing so create a new problem. If EVERYONE comes to belief, EVERYONE is saved in the end.....then this entire world and all that happens - all the rape and violence and murder - is all entriely down to god, who makes us live through it all despite knowing that - in the end - he will save everyone anyway. That's evil in itself.

And if one, single person does NOT get the god-given chance to believe before they die....if one single person dies without faith as a reult of your god's decision...then your god is a monster, no matter how many people he saves.

I want to know whether you think that damning someone for all eternity for something they have no control over is good.

If you say "yes", then I want you to tell me of any other similar situation where you would also call it good. Or would you, as I suspect, call such an action monstrously evil if it was done by any other creature than your "god".

He would be omnicient enought to know what would convince me...even though I currently don't know what would; and he would be omnipotent enough to do said convincing.

My point exactly, He doesn't want to convince you.Don't you get it?

Oh, I get it. Your god doesn't WANT us to believe, so will make sure we don't. So we will go to hell forever for not having the belief that he makes sure we will never get.

He is an evil monster, I get it. I just don't understand how you can choose to worship such a beast - actually, sorry, yes I do - only because your god makes you. If you had thechoice whether to worship such a creature, and you chose to do so....it would make you just as evil as it.

He would be omnicient enought to know what would convince me...even though I currently don't know what would; and he would be omnipotent enough to do said convincing.

My point exactly, He doesn't want to convince you.Don't you get it?

Yes, I get that you are using circular logic. I get that you don't use any bit of skepticism on the stuff that you want to believe in. I get that you can't overcome your Christian programming reinforced by the fact that it a socially acceptable delusion.

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An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

YES. George, I believe in God and I believe the bible."No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it."(1 Corinthians 10:13)Did Abraham kill his son?

This is a sincere question, is something like this post considered 'preaching'?I am trying my best to follow the rules here.

Since you are not omniscient or omnipotent . . . how would you know that it was God Almighty making that demand of you?

A little simplistic, I know, but you get the point.

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“In dark ages people are best guided by religion, as in a pitch-black night a blind man is the best guide; he knows the roads and paths better than a man who can see. When daylight comes, however, it is foolish to use blind, old men as guides.” Heinrich Heine

like the woman who drowned her kids,because God told her in order to save them she had to kill them. SK is she a liar or is she mentally ill OR did God command her to save her kids by killing them?

My personal opinion, she is mentally ill.

And how do you differentiate between the declaration the foreskins must be cut off...versus drowning children as which being mentally ill and which being a declaration of the being that supposedly had those forskins grow and babies be born in the first place?

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An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

YES. George, I believe in God and I believe the bible."No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it."(1 Corinthians 10:13)

Really? God never gives you more than you can "bear"?

Ya stupid palooka... Why don't you go quote your cutesy little bible verse to the over ONE *MILLION* people who KILL THEMSELVES every year?

Go ahead and visualize that. Here, let me help you out.

Now imagine that every person in that picture is DEAD. Corpses as far as the eye can see. Those are the worldwide suicides - EVERY YEAR.

Your retarded feeb of an imaginary friend/god is apparently *really* bad at calculating exactly what someone can or can not bare now, isn't he? Because for these MILLION people, he obviously overdid it.

I swear, this stuff gets stupider with every post.

Oh, and by the way, you are one sick, SICK piece of s**t human being for even considering murdering your own child. So you live by a policy of "Might Makes Right", and so if someone or something is of sufficient power or poses a big enough threat to you, you will compromise the most basic and fundamental concepts of human goodness and even nature's own preservation of the species instinct.

What a souless coward you are, to be willing to do such a thing under ANY circumstance. A *real* mother would be willing to endure a dozen of your mythical hells rather than harm their own child. *MY* mother would. Which means she's an infinitely better and braver person than you OR your god.

You vile fucking hag, you are mentally ill and you need to be Baker-acted! You do NOT deserve to be free and walking around in society with the rest of us. Nor do you deserve to be a mother in the first place. If they're under 18, I hope child protective services finds out how fucked up in the head you are and takes your kids away to be with a family that WON'T consider killing them. If that doesn't happen, I hope that once they realize what a blabbering, evil psychopath their mother is, your poor children manage to kill YOU before the voices in your head get you to turn on THEM.

You disgust me. And so does your savage child-killing cult.

I suppose I should look on the bright side. You're doing a fantastic job of demonstrating just how utterly fucking evil AND brainless your religion is. Keep it up.

I personally believe God will never ask me to do such thing.But for argument's sake, if God ever did ask.

I believe God will either call it off last second, if not I believe God will give me enough faith to go through whatever lies ahead of me. (faith comes from God)

Of course my fellow Christians will call me crazy.

so you then believe that other people who have claimed that God told them to kill their children were following God's orders, yes? And of cuorse you are sure that your version of god is the only right one, and those "other Christians" are wrong. SSDD from the theist set.

This is a pretty common thing for christians to beleive, that their god wouldn't ever possibly ask them to do soemthing tht they don't want to do. They all create their god in their own image, and SK is no different. SK is just the version that is so wrapped up in themselves and how "great" they are that they come up with a monster to worship, one that would punish anyone who dares disagree with SK.

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"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

1) Do you have faith in the Lord God Almighty?2) Do you uphold the law of your Bible?3) Would you risk danger to clarify your beliefs?

Answer me these ASAP.

Yes, Yes, and Yes.

Jesus said "Do you want to be healed?"(John 5:6)

Firstly, don't quote Bible at me, I know it probably better than you do and so does everyone else on this forum.

Quote from: Mark 16:17-18

they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

You have confirmed that you will risk danger for your faith, and you trust God and you will indeed uphold the law of your Bible, and you believe it as well.

I challenge your faith SERPENT KILLA.

I challenge you to sit in a bathful of Black Mambas, with no protective clothing on, and pick a few up. I then want you to drink an entire glass of Cyanide.

This is not testing God, you cannot use that as a reason not to do it. If God exists, and the Bible is correct, you will be able to do this and come out completely intact.

Are you willing to put your faith to the test, or are you like any other sane person and will not even risk attempting this because you know you will die if you attempt this?

God will save you if he exists. If you perish in the attempt, your peers will say you didn't have enough faith. To be honest, if you had enough faith in God to drink a cup of cyanide and lie in a bath with the most deadly snakes in the world, then nobody will have enough faith to make any sort of prayer come true.

If that is the case, people who have been 'healed' are all lying, it's coincidence and you have all placed faith in God for nothing, as the amount of faith he requires is more than the most avid Christian can provide. If Life is the most sacred gift from God, and trusting God with your life means he does not save you, then nothing on this earth is precious enough to God to intervene about.

Don't you get it? Either way, you CANNOT win. You die, or you make a baseless argument saying that God does not want to be tested. Howcome that he says in his Holy book that you can do all of this stuff and be fine, yet you aren't allowed to do it?

It's like me saying 'You must eat a peanut. But you are not allowed to eat a peanut'.

Enjoy your predicament, I'm interested to know what your reaction is to this conundrum.

YES. George, I believe in God and I believe the bible."No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it."(1 Corinthians 10:13)

Really? God never gives you more than you can "bear"?

Ya stupid palooka... Why don't you go quote your cutesy little bible verse to the over ONE *MILLION* people who KILL THEMSELVES every year?

Go ahead and visualize that. Here, let me help you out.

Now imagine that every person in that picture is DEAD. Corpses as far as the eye can see. Those are the worldwide suicides - EVERY YEAR.

Your retarded feeb of an imaginary friend/god is apparently *really* bad at calculating exactly what someone can or can not bare now, isn't he? Because for these MILLION people, he obviously overdid it.

I swear, this stuff gets stupider with every post.

Oh, and by the way, you are one sick, SICK piece of s**t human being for even considering murdering your own child. So you live by a policy of "Might Makes Right", and so if someone or something is of sufficient power or poses a big enough threat to you, you will compromise the most basic and fundamental concepts of human goodness and even nature's own preservation of the species instinct.

What a souless coward you are, to be willing to do such a thing under ANY circumstance. A *real* mother would be willing to endure a dozen of your mythical hells rather than harm their own child. *MY* mother would. Which means she's an infinitely better and braver person than you OR your god.

You vile fucking hag, you are mentally ill and you need to be Baker-acted! You do NOT deserve to be free and walking around in society with the rest of us. Nor do you deserve to be a mother in the first place. If they're under 18, I hope child protective services finds out how fucked up in the head you are and takes your kids away to be with a family that WON'T consider killing them. If that doesn't happen, I hope that once they realize what a blabbering, evil psychopath their mother is, your poor children manage to kill YOU before the voices in your head get you to turn on THEM.

You disgust me. And so does your savage child-killing cult.

I suppose I should look on the bright side. You're doing a fantastic job of demonstrating just how utterly fucking evil AND brainless your religion is. Keep it up.

Raymond.....God is insane enough to kill his own kid,why shouldn't SK,without Question if God told her to,she would just be following his sick example......oh and +1 for telling this retard what kind of sicko she is

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There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)