Bottom line? As the Web site's motto reads, "Free minds and free markets." In other words, move out of the way, government. In a town like Cleveland, with big government bureaucracies, cumbersome regulations and old-school unions, the series argues, it's no wonder times are so tough.

I kind of roll my eyes whenever I see a "save [big city]" article or documentary. Isn't really just saying "why are all the white people moving away?" Then they will blame high taxes, blame schools (and somehow it's teacher's fault .. not bloated bueracracy that rules over them) or blame crime. Same old song and dance that has gone on for decades here in the Midwest.

But history has shown that white people always move away. It's intrinisic to their DNA. They moved away from Europe when shit got tough. They moved away from the Eastern seaboard when the cities became overpopulated. They moved away from the midwestern industrial cities as they prospered and now they are totally abandoning them as the jobs are drying up.

Toxicadam wrote: But history has shown that white people always move away. It's intrinisic to their DNA. They moved away from Europe when shit got tough. They moved away from the Eastern seaboard when the cities became overpopulated. They moved away from the midwestern industrial cities as they prospered and now they are totally abandoning them as the jobs are drying up.

Trying hard to follow you here and not jump to conclusions, but I'm lost. It's not a white, black, brown thing, it's a human condition thing. Almost universally, previous generations want to make things better for subsequent generations, regardless of ethnicity or country of origin. Everybody wants a better life. Western Europeans moved to the US for a better life. In the case of the Irish, it was to STOP DYING. Pussies. North Africans, once colonized by those same Western Europeans, moved to Europe, seeking a better life. Same for Indians to the UK. Freed slaves moved North looking for better opportunities than share cropping after the Civil War. And on and on.

This whole "white flight" as the reason for the ills of urban population centers is nothing more than scape-goating. YMMV.

I don't need to be patient, they're going to be shit forever. - CDT, discussing my favorite NFL team

Trying hard to follow you here and not jump to conclusions, but I'm lost. It's not a white, black, brown thing, it's a human condition thing.

So the fact that the city of Cleveland is now 54% black, and the population of surrounding areas like Medina County and mushrooming is just a coincidence?

You guys are missing a couple key points.

#1 was BUSSING. Why would a hard working family trying hard to provide their family with a nice neighborhood to live in want to see their children bussed across town to a delapidated school full of crime?

#2 Schools ARE an issue, whether you want to believe it or not. If you had a choice, and you wanted your children to be able to become something, would you send them to the worst schools in the state? Where the buildings are condemned and the budget is so bad the state has to take them over?

And no I'm not blaming JUST the teachers, the collapse of Cleveland schools is a result of many issues. Starting with bad parents, corrupt leaders, and no money available. As the better off people leave (of no particular race), the student body goes further downhill.

Bad schools keep people from taking positions that force them to live there (trust me, I am one of them). Bad schools make a corporation think twice about locating there. Where are you going to get better quality workers, Cleveland? Or somewhere with a somewhat adequate education system? Bad schools pump generation after generation of graduates qualified to be janitors into the workforce, and there's no shortage of janitors. More spiraling.

Then there's the corruption, of epic proportions.

Then there's about the worst weather in the US. There is a direct correlation to the number of dreary weather days and depression.

As I look at other rust belt cities, some have rebounded, some are trying, some are flailing about aimlessly. Cleveland is in the last group IMO.

Trying hard to follow you here and not jump to conclusions, but I'm lost. It's not a white, black, brown thing, it's a human condition thing.

So the fact that the city of Cleveland is now 54% black, and the population of surrounding areas like Medina County and mushrooming is just a coincidence?

No. But do you assign blame to white people for moving to Medina? My only point is blaming this on white folk is mis-guided; they are doing what everyone does if they have the means to do so - improve their quality of life.

Big difference between saying "White flight is a contributing factor to the decay of our urban areas" and "White people are to blame for the decay of our urban areas because every time things get tough they bail."

I don't need to be patient, they're going to be shit forever. - CDT, discussing my favorite NFL team

Yes, I'll be watching the webisodes as they are released. Drew Carey ain't going to save the world, but Drew using his celebrity to bring issues to light for discussion is perfectly OK by me.

I'll be interested in the scope of the series... City of Cleveland, Cuyahoga County, Cleveland 'burbs and Cleveland+ have vastly different issues to address. Drew Carey is from Old Brooklyn, which is in Cleveland proper- so, I'm guessing he's going to keep this from that POV while incorporating ideas that may involve the County, First-rings, and all of NEO.

I love Cleveland. I live in Fairview Park. <-- I don't know why that's funny to me.

If any of the people who have commented without actually watching any of the videos watches just one, I hope the next is the one. It involves the West Side Market and Cleveland's municipal golf courses, among other interesting ideas.

Watched it, and agree. They kept Carey to a minimum, really he didn't contribute anything other then his mug and a few mumbles. The key word was the political will to make it happen. Not even close in Cleveland. You cannot even get qualified people to run for mayor. Working for a non-union contractor in Cleveland I know first hand the lack of will among the citizens to demand change.

"When a man with money meets a man with experience, the man with experience leaves with money and the man with money leaves with experience."

It's not a matter of white people leaving when the going gets tough. There are a lot of reasons to leave Cleveland...

Schools, jobs, decay and a-holes in neighborhoods.

Eventually, I think most of these places are gonna have to come up with some reasonable means of managing downsizing, like dave Bing introduced.

Thing about C-town is that except fo a brief few years of Mike White, they never figured out how to leverage the resources they had. Campbell was a disaster and the economic floor of manufacturing fell out.

jfiling wrote:If any of the people who have commented without actually watching any of the videos watches just one, I hope the next is the one. It involves the West Side Market and Cleveland's municipal golf courses, among other interesting ideas.

Hey, I'm all for privitizing stuff like parking, golfing and the WSM. It should help those micro-issues and what was considered rogressive in 1905 can probably step aside if the city is losing menoy on these enterprises.

But these are the "innovative solutions" that are going to "save Cleveland" ?

I'll keep watching with an open mind becasue this is interetsing, but they need to step the game up.

jfiling wrote:If any of the people who have commented without actually watching any of the videos watches just one, I hope the next is the one. It involves the West Side Market and Cleveland's municipal golf courses, among other interesting ideas.

Hey, I'm all for privitizing stuff like parking, golfing and the WSM. It should help those micro-issues and what was considered rogressive in 1905 can probably step aside if the city is losing menoy on these enterprises.

But these are the "innovative solutions" that are going to "save Cleveland" ?

I'll keep watching with an open mind becasue this is interetsing, but they need to step the game up.

1. They can kick bad students out. If you are a screw up, ur gone. End of story. Public schools have to dance around with the idiots. Privates just kick them out to public schools. problems solved.

2. They can hire and fire teachers as they wish. Period. You want to mail it in as a burn out or you are a poor teacher? Buh-bye. No union.

3. By virue of tuition or mandate, parents / families are involved and comitted to their kids' education. There is nothing that any school or teacher can do whatsoever to make a difference if the student is apathetic becasue the family is apathetic. Everything else is a non-starter.

You can dress it up any way you want and use buzzwords like "educational entrepreneurship" or make public school kids wear uniforms, or decrease the sze of schools. You can close underperforming schools. Doesn't matter. Until those three elemnts are in place, you got nothing.

1. They can kick bad students out. If you are a screw up, ur gone. End of story. Public schools have to dance around with the idiots. Privates just kick them out to public schools. problems solved.

2. They can hire and fire teachers as they wish. Period. You want to mail it in as a burn out or you are a poor teacher? Buh-bye. No union.

3. By virue of tuition or mandate, parents / families are involved and comitted to their kids' education. There is nothing that any school or teacher can do whatsoever to make a difference if the student is apathetic becasue the family is apathetic. Everything else is a non-starter.

You can dress it up any way you want and use buzzwords like "educational entrepreneurship" or make public school kids wear uniforms, or decrease the sze of schools. You can close underperforming schools. Doesn't matter. Until those three elemnts are in place, you got nothing.

It really is just that simple.

Holy crap that "simple" logic should be sent to all decision makers in Cleveland. We have an entrenched syndicalism that is going down with the ship.

"When a man with money meets a man with experience, the man with experience leaves with money and the man with money leaves with experience."