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As much as I hate war I realize it's sometimes necessary to secure freedom for ourselves and our posterity. We can not permit foreigh terror groups to commit acts of war against us and then do nothing about it. There's a time to kill, and there's a time to heal...

--------------------"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

As much as I hate a shadow government and secret military ops I would rather see our specialy trained boys assinate terror groups from within. I dont like the idea of createing a larger CIA or NSA but thats how terrorism should be faught. Not by spending over 250BILLION dollars on bombs which eachwith al 40 innocent to 1 enemy kill ratio.

Shadow Gov as bad secret military ops in US cities worse. For years people thought the stories of secret ops complete with black helicopters was made up by kooks but it's now been revealed to be true. Those things are our domestic enemies and they must be dealt with as well. The CIA and NSA are underfunded. Clinton cut their budget by half and as a result we were vulnerable to 9-11 and didn't know about it in time. Good intel saves American lives. It is necessary. Bombs cost money. Smart bombs cost a lot of money. I question your allegation that they have a 40:1 innocent to enemy kill ratio. If you drop a bomb on an enemy barricks you kill all the enemy and no civilians. If you drop a bomb on a wedding party a high ranking Al Qaeda is attending then you'de probably have the civie killrate you mentioned, but we don't do that.

--------------------"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Perplexed, surely you are not talking about this war being just about our greed are you?The greed is what allowed other countrys to harbor viloent terrorist groups. The same groups that attacked us in the first place.These country's continue to harbor terrorists, even to the point of publicly establishing an alibi for them. There is no attempt to arrest, investigate or in any way assist the countrys they have attacked in an investigation. They are given "carte blanche" to commit whatever mayhem their filthy minds can conjure up; as long as they have money to pay the rent.

It is in no way an immoral act to respond to a deadly attack with deadly force; to disuade terrorists or their "landlords" from committing these acts or from harboring persons who would commit these brutal attacks. "There is no such thing as a fair fight involving death".

The one power that our constitution gives to the federal government and that I whole heartedly accept is, "defend our borders".I have no wish to see our country thrust into a war in which we have no experience, I've been there, done that. I also have no wish to see another country decimated by the might of the United States military; death and war are ugly and affect everyone no matter how far you think you may be removed.

But, there are few options now, it is no longer a civil war contained within the confines of the "Arab Nations" it has come home to the borders of our country and it has cost lives of brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers, uncles, aunts, cousins, husbands and wives. These are the people you work with, play with, love, and sometimes toke with. These are our neighbors and friends and the cost of killing them is the forfeiture of your life, and the accountability of those nations that would harbor these assasins.

I don't hate "them" because they are different or because they worship a different god than I. I don't hate them because they dislike our countrys involvement in their affairs, in fact, in this matter, I agree with them. Truth be told I don't hate them at all, I am disgusted, frightened, angry and hurt that my neighbors were killed by them.

I am willing to listen to their grievences as I hope that they are willing to listen to mine. I am not,however, willing to listen to anything at the end of a gun, not now, not EVER. If one initiates violence then one has given up ones right to liberty and freedom, and, in the most aggregious case, your life as well.

I don't stand on a "soap box" and scream USA,USA,USA; I don't say to people "imagine the odacity of those idiots, to attack the United States". I don't beleive that the United States is forever removed from the rest of the world in our naivete', that we are immune from the pain and suffering of the world simply because we, as a nation, beleive in our "moral superiority". This is the height of huberious, and of ignorance.

I don't beleive that our nation's stance to "bring to justice those that perpetrated this monsterous deed and those who harbor them" is or should be one of hatred. Our stance is and should be one of outrage, pain beyond belief and the moral right to defend ourselves and our borders to the extent that all involved in terrorism shall say to each other "Imagine the odacity of those idiots, to attack the United States in that manner".

I don't hate, I don't beleive this nation hates, but if you attack my neighborI WILL KICK YOUR F@#KIN' BUTT BACK INTO THE STONE AGE.

And, if you beleive that we should turn the other cheek, then please stay the h^&ll out of my way. ------------------"He that would make his own liberty secure,must guard even his enemy from oppression;for if he violates this duty, he establishesa precedent that will reach to himself." -- Thomas Paine

I don't think that is a factual statement. The U.S. has been involved in conflicts, but we have not, purposley bombed civilian targets; though mistakes will happen.

While I do believe that our federal government acts like terrorists on occasion, even they have not seen fit to involve themselves beyond that which could rightly be construed as U.N. type peace keeping.

Had the attack been more in line with a declared war situation, it may have been justifiable, but that was not the case. It was what it was, an act of cowardice. That is the significant difference between what al-queda did and what (imo) the Palastinians are doing with suicide bombing. Yes, suicide bombers, target civilian targets, but they are only trying to defend themselves with what is at hand. (we can save this for a later discussion if you like).

To the war at hand, it IS an act of self-defense. We, those like myself, will deal with the ridiculous laws being passed in congress when the time comes to do so. Until then, it is the duty of the fed to destroy any lasting remanants of the al-queda network that remains. I am concerned that we will invade Saddam shortly, this cannot be considered an act of self-defense; not yet. So, I am waiting for what and who, Saddam will attack so that we, the fed, not citizens, will have some sort of excuse to bomb that country next.

I am not unaware of our stupidity to engage in "warfare diplomacy", I hate it, I do all one man can to change our foriegn policy dictates but I am not alone and this is encourageing. But, that aside, unless I harm you or wave a gun in your face you should respect me. If you don't, then "CRY HAVOC, AND UNLEASH THE DOGS OF WAR" for I will be there and you won't like it; not one damn bit.

"The U.S. has been involved in conflicts, but we have not, purposley bombed civilian targets; though mistakes will happen."

I heard something about secret bombings in Cambodia. CIA estimated that 500.000 civilans were killed and 1.000.000 died because of hunger that was a consequence of these bombings. But as you said, mistakes happen.

How about the Dozens of Afghan villages bombed due to bad intell bought from rival warlords.

No one knows just how much money the CIA has given to warlords in Afghanistan for information but we do know that their have been more than 600 recreational vehicals over 3000 satelite cell phones given. We continue to give Afghan warlords gifts for information even though we know they are on the take from both sides. They tell us where the enemy is and we drop our bombs but they have already been paid also by the enemy to sneak them out of harms way.

Whoa, I don't want to cause any confusion about my stance here. I was being simplistic in my comparisons about the U.S. and terrorists. On the surface, the difference can be recognized; acts of war vs. terrorism. A deeper look will, of course, provide much more areas of similarity. To be clear, what we, the U.S., does in times of war are justifiable; even if they are extreme. The reason's behind our use of nukes in WWll were and are justifiable, we were at war, a declared war. The bombing of civilians, mistaken or not, in Afghanastan, is justifiable, we have declared war.

War is terrible, war is evil, war is dispicable; there can be NO grounds for INITIATING a war. At the same time, self-defense, of life or nation, demands that no punches be pulled. You don't simply shake your finger at those who would, willingly, kill thousands of people in your nation, and hope that they don't do it again. You KILL THEM. That's right, you kill them, this is what war is; who can kill the most the fastest, or cause the greatest suffering, WINS.

I wasnt really pointing to you just pointing to the part of this war I hate the most.

What I hate most.1) The CIA has been giving out bribes to Afghan warlords to give up information about Al-Qida(?). So far MILLIONS have been given along with SUV's and Hummers, satelite cell phone and other "gifts". The warloards dont like us and dont respect us, For the most part they have been giving us falce information and directing us to bomb their rival villages, which we gladly do because they told us that the enemy was their.

2) The idea of all my tax dollars going to make bombs that cant hit their target. Not just that but bombs in general, theirs better ways to fight a war like this, one that dont cost soo much and dont kill soo many people. The fact that we will spend another 25% of the war total in future clean up operations over the next decade makes me sick.

No worrys, I wasn't considering your posts directed AT me at all. Hell, sometimes I just hit the nearest reply button. I hate the cost of this war also, in dollars and lives lost. But, I am a selfish, egocentric, liberty loving, redneck, bastard, son of a bitch. I will gladly suspend my attack on the IRS for the duration of this war, I will gladly do whatever I can to defend this nation, I will gladly sit quietly by as the warlords make sure that we recieve the proper quardinants to bomb their rivals, as long as ONE al-queda member is killed.

I've said it before and it bears repeating, I am NOT a war monger, I don't hate but, I am also born of a hard world and a hard life. I have no sympathy for those killed; other than the children. citizens of a country bear some responsibility for the actions of their government. In this case, aiding and abeiting terrorist activitys. I don't limit this responsibility just to other nations. I feel responsibile every time I read about some idiotic move made by a congressman or president in my name. I seek to stop this by political activism.

I have no idea why our government is incapable of dispatching this small terrorist organization. One would think that several passes with a B1B would suffice. There appears to be an underlying motive for escalation, namely, Saddam. I would hope that we would do what is neccesary to be assured that such an attack would never again be a consideration by other terrorist organizations and then, bring our soldiers back home. I am concerned, but, at this point, I still consider our actions justified.

Mr Freedom, you stated, The bombing of civilians, mistaken or not, in Afghanastan, is justifiable, we have declared war.

I'd like to bring up one small point, Congress has made no declaration of war since WWII (as provided for in the Constitution). George Bush and his conspirators on Capitol Hill consistently ignore the Constitution in this area as well as all others. If I am mistaken, please enlighten me.

--------------------You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

True, the Democrats share responsibility with the Republicans. Both parties agree on the fundamental principle that individual sovereignty should yeild to the state, they only differ in their judgements about which rights should be sacrificed first and how much to increase the payments.