Racing in the snow is the coolest thing in the world. The most fun that I can imagine.

I think it might be because of cultural differences due to not having snow vs having snow, but there are a lot of people who don't consider driving straight in paved dry tarmac racing at all. I understand that even that can be considered as racing, but honestly I don't think it is as fun or as much racing as e.g. the snow stages below:

We don't really race on a daily basis.

Yes, rally racing is awesome but AWD is a necessity for the conditions. You take a rally car vs. a proper RWD race car (ALMS GT class) and it will get its ass ripped on tarmac.

Oh, why? Street racing is quite refreshing And you can just drive fast some time each day when there is no traffic even if you would not run against anyone.

Well sometimes I drive normally.

Plus, let's say you have an AWD car and you run into me on the freeway at 2 AM in SoCal. All your 4 wheel drive is going to do is hinder you. Plus, when you aren't on the highway and in the canyons in Malibu I'll have to constantly slow to wait until you finish understeering through a corner.

Plus, let's say you have an AWD car and you run into me on the freeway at 2 AM in SoCal. All your 4 wheel drive is going to do is hinder you. Plus, when you aren't on the highway and in the canyons in Malibu I'll have to constantly slow to wait until you finish understeering through a corner.

It is a common misunderstanding that AWD is beneficial in slippery conditions only. Having AWD I would brake late when entering the corner, operate a weigh transfer, and push the gas pedal while inside the corner in order to allow torque transfer by self locking differentials to the rear wheels. When the front tires spin due to the excess torque applied to them, the spin is detected by the center differential which will progressively lock and bias engine torque sending the excess torque to the rear wheels thus inducing oversteer. So, no, I don't understeer, but oversteer the corner. In a corner, AWD does not need to slow as much as RWD because RWD has oversteer no matter what, but a skilled AWD driver can select between the oversteer and understeer to his benefit and/or neutralize the ride through the corner by keeping it at the limit.

Now, you are correct in the case of an ordinary driver. An ordinary driver does not have the balls to brake late and throw his car into oversteer being at the limit of understeering when entering the corner. So, an average driver that is not used to drive AWD to the very limit, will just understeer and be slow. However, a skilled driver drives tarmac stages so fast you are not able to imagine.

It is a common misunderstanding that AWD is beneficial in slippery conditions only. Having AWD I would brake late when entering the corner, operate a weigh transfer, and push the gas pedal while inside the corner in order to allow torque transfer by self locking differentials to the rear wheels.

Tell Footie to get off your computer.

It doesn't matter what you do you can not power on correct anything and you will have more weight over the front. You will have more understeer. You will have less fun.

Originally Posted by 654

So, no, I don't understeer, but oversteer the corner. In a corner, AWD does not need to slow as much as RWD because RWD has oversteer no matter what, but a skilled AWD driver can select between the oversteer and understeer to his benefit and/or neutralize the ride through the corner by keeping it at the limit.

No, a guy with AWD in that scenario pretty much is just choosing understeer.

Originally Posted by 654

Now, you are correct in the case of an ordinary driver. An ordinary driver does not have the balls to brake late and throw his car into oversteer being at the limit of understeering when entering the corner. So, an average driver that is not used to drive AWD to the very limit, will just understeer and be slow. However, a skilled driver drives tarmac stages so fast you are not able to imagine.

The fastest race cars are RWD. RWD will always be more efficient, allow lower weight, and allow for better balance. The old M realized this and this is why they made the Ultimate Driving Machine.

It doesn't matter what you do you can not power on correct anything and you will have more weight over the front. You will have more understeer. You will have less fun.

No, a guy with AWD in that scenario pretty much is just choosing understeer.

The fastest race cars are RWD. RWD will always be more efficient, allow lower weight, and allow for better balance. The old M realized this and this is why they made the Ultimate Driving Machine.

The power comes off from the front tires gradually it feeling the slip so that the car won't understeer. Steering by gas pedal, I can introduce the oversteer at the optimal point at any time. Perhaps you refer some poor non-performance oriented systems that have fixed power allocations of some sort and that of course exist in the market as well. The modern AWDs put the power to the wheel having traction. This maximizes the power to the ground, since obviously 4 wheels are able to put more power to the ground than two.

Personally I typically oversteer rather than understeer. What kind of AWD do you drive and how much do you have experience in driving AWD to the limit? I have a WRC homologation special that I keep in the garage mainly as it is impossible to find some parts and it lacks the modern comfort, Anyways, I am speaking about experience having driven all type of drivetrains to the limit quite a bit.

I started this by saying RWD is slow on slippery roads. However, you are trying to derail the discussion a bit, and try to find areas where RWD would be competitive. Fine, I admit that RWD is fast on dry tarmac. However, what it is exactly that makes you to say that RWD is faster with that extreme certainty?

Let's remember how AWD led by Quattro took it all beginning of eighties, tarmac rallies included. AWD owned Touring cars through the whole 90s despite of the competitors pushing more and more weight penalties and restrictions to AWDs. Finally 1998 FIA had to ban AWDs for good as nothing else helped Quattro having won touring car championships all over (Germany, UK, Spain, Australia, South Africa, Belgium, Sweden...). The modern Active Yaw control systems is even better than the Torsen differentials that spanked the RWDs on tarmac.

The power comes off from the front tires gradually it feeling the slip so that the car won't understeer. Steering by gas pedal, I can introduce the oversteer at the optimal point at any time. Perhaps you refer some poor non-performance oriented systems that have fixed power allocations of some sort and that of course exist in the market as well. The modern AWDs put the power to the wheel having traction. This maximizes the power to the ground, since obviously 4 wheels are able to put more power to the ground than two.

Modern Audi's which I assume would fit your qualification of modern AWD systems are nose heavy and understeer. You can't introduce oversteer at any time so I don't know what you are saying.

Originally Posted by 654

Personally I typically oversteer rather than understeer. What kind of AWD do you drive and how much do you have experience in driving AWD to the limit? I have a WRC homologation special that I keep in the garage mainly as it is impossible to find some parts and it lacks the modern comfort, Anyways, I am speaking about experience having driven all type of drivetrains to the limit quite a bit.

Driving AWD a lot does not change physics.

Originally Posted by 654

I started this by saying RWD is slow on slippery roads. However, you are trying to derail the discussion a bit, and try to find areas where RWD would be competitive. Fine, I admit that RWD is fast on dry tarmac. However, what it is exactly that makes you to say that RWD is faster with that extreme certainty?

RWD with a mid engine layout is the optimal configuration.

Yes, you are talking about conditions where AWD helps like in the winter in areas where it snows. It isn't RWD being slow, it is because there is snow.

Originally Posted by 654

Let's remember how AWD led by Quattro took it all beginning of eighties, tarmac rallies included. AWD owned Touring cars through the whole 90s despite of the competitors pushing more and more weight penalties and restrictions to AWDs. Finally 1998 FIA had to ban AWDs for good as nothing else helped Quattro having won touring car championships all over (Germany, UK, Spain, Australia, South Africa, Belgium, Sweden...). The modern Active Yaw control systems is even better than the Torsen differentials that spanked the RWDs on tarmac.

It is no surprise in 80's rally racing that AWD would beat RWD. I never saw Formula 1 switch to AWD.

Modern Audi's which I assume would fit your qualification of modern AWD systems are nose heavy and understeer. You can't introduce oversteer at any time so I don't know what you are saying.

Driving AWD a lot does not change physics.

RWD with a mid engine layout is the optimal configuration.

Yes, you are talking about conditions where AWD helps like in the winter in areas where it snows. It isn't RWD being slow, it is because there is snow.

It is no surprise in 80's rally racing that AWD would beat RWD. I never saw Formula 1 switch to AWD.

Cars in general understeer, RWD included. That's because the manufacturers want them to be safer. However, you can adjust your car not to understeer. E.g. GT-R understeers, just like any car. But take GT-R SpecV, of which suspension is tuned to be neutral, is very easy to oversteer at will. Powerful RWDs tend to oversteer when applying throttle in a turn. AWD will do the same as they typically send the torque where there is traction, i.e. to the rear wheels in a turn, so that AWD becomes almost a RWD car, but just slightly more neutral. Everyone knowing cars, knows that the suspension tuning for an AWD car is perfect when the car will be set to behave neutral. The same applies to RWD, but it won't stay neutral in a turn, if it has a lot of power, since the rear kicks sideways. To avoid that, the RWD driver cannot apply throttle, he needs to lift of and watch AWD drive by.

I think you know why F1 does not have AWD. Yes, AWD is banned. I think you know why AWD is banned...

I mean modern AWD as active YAW control. Mitsubishi is years ahead of Audi in yaw, since Audi was banned from touring cars, but Mitsubishi was able to go on with the development with AWD Rally cars. As late as in 2011 for RS5 Audi came up with "Sport differential" that selectively distributes torque to the rear axle wheels generating a yaw moment, which improves handling and stabilizes the car when it oversteers or understeers. As Car and Driver put it: "

You’re able to induce easily controllable oversteer, but if you don’t push it, the RS5 will stay neutral seemingly forever."

Some of the modern AWDs can send basically all the power to the rear if needed to keep the car neutral and fast. Similarly, they are able to send enough power to the front when needed to keep the car neutral.

I mean modern AWD as active YAW control. Mitsubishi is years ahead of Audi in yaw, since Audi was banned from touring cars, but Mitsubishi was able to go on with the development with AWD Rally cars. As late as in 2011 for RS5 Audi came up with "Sport differential" that selectively distributes torque to the rear axle wheels generating a yaw moment, which improves handling and stabilizes the car when it oversteers or understeers. As Car and Driver put it: "

You’re able to induce easily controllable oversteer, but if you don’t push it, the RS5 will stay neutral seemingly forever."

Some of the modern AWDs can send basically all the power to the rear if needed to keep the car neutral and fast. Similarly, they are able to send enough power to the front when needed to keep the car neutral.

I just simply disagree. It doesn't matter, RWD will be lighter and better able to use power to induce overseer especially with less weight hanging over the nose.

I like AWD and understand its place but it does not rule for fun factor.