** That doesn't really explain why they abandon their cider entirely (including the good barrels). They could probably still have sold the good barrels, had they devoted some time and energy to digging them out.

** Probably because Pinkie Pie is a well-established BigEater who tends to gorge herself on her favorite foods super-quickly? All those mugs that she buys probably aren't enough to last the time between her leaving and Rainbow Dash's hopes of buying her own cider being [[IncrediblyLamePun dashed]]. Even if Rainbow thought to ask, Pinkie Pie probably drinks it all before Rainbow ever catches her.

to:

** Probably because Pinkie Pie is a well-established BigEater who tends to gorge herself on her favorite foods super-quickly? All those mugs that she buys probably aren't enough to last the time between her leaving and Rainbow Dash's hopes of buying her own cider being [[IncrediblyLamePun dashed]]. Even if Rainbow thought to ask, Pinkie Pie probably drinks it all before Rainbow ever catches her.her.** This is in fact what is shown: Pinkie walking away with a collection of empty mugs.

FridgeLogic: Why don't the Apples limit one mug per pony, if they ALWAYS run out? It seems like the logical thing to do, and it would add a bit more drama in that they ''don't'' make enough for everypony. It could simply be that there are more ponies like Pinkie Pie, who buy multiple mugs that stop everypony in Ponyville from getting cider.* Why didn't Rainbow Dash just visit Pinkie Pie and ask for some?

to:

FridgeLogic: FridgeBrilliance:* Why would the Flim Flam bros. sell the obviously inferior cider instead of the more carefully made batches after the contest? Because the barrels that held the good batch were made first and, therefore, stuck under all of the more hastily made cider so they couldn't easily dig them out.** Alternatively, they sold the bad cider because they'd been enjoying [[FrothyMugsOfWater good cider]] for most of the episode.* While nonalcoholic cider does exist in real life, there ''is'' another explanation for why no pony gets drunk; equines have a higher alcohol tolerance than humans do, meaning it'd take a ''lot'' more to get a pony drunk than a human.

FridgeLogic: * Why don't the Apples limit one mug per pony, if they ALWAYS run out? It seems like the logical thing to do, and it would add a bit more drama in that they ''don't'' make enough for everypony. It could simply be that there are more ponies like Pinkie Pie, who buy multiple mugs that stop everypony in Ponyville from getting cider.* Why didn't Rainbow Dash just visit Pinkie Pie and ask for some?some?** Probably because Pinkie Pie is a well-established BigEater who tends to gorge herself on her favorite foods super-quickly? All those mugs that she buys probably aren't enough to last the time between her leaving and Rainbow Dash's hopes of buying her own cider being [[IncrediblyLamePun dashed]]. Even if Rainbow thought to ask, Pinkie Pie probably drinks it all before Rainbow ever catches her.

FridgeLogic: Why don't the Apples limit one mug per pony, if they ALWAYS run out? It seems like the logical thing to do, and it would add a bit more drama in that they ''don't'' make enough for everypony. It could simply be that there are more ponies like Pinkie Pie, who buy multiple mugs that stop everypony in Ponyville from getting cider.

to:

FridgeLogic: Why don't the Apples limit one mug per pony, if they ALWAYS run out? It seems like the logical thing to do, and it would add a bit more drama in that they ''don't'' make enough for everypony. It could simply be that there are more ponies like Pinkie Pie, who buy multiple mugs that stop everypony in Ponyville from getting cider.cider.* Why didn't Rainbow Dash just visit Pinkie Pie and ask for some?

FridgeLogic: Why don't the Apples limit one mug per pony, if they ALWAYS run out? It seems like the logical thing to do, and it would add a bit more drama in that they ''don't'' make enough for everypony. It could simply be that there are more ponies like Pinkie Pie, who buy multiple mugs that stop everypony in Ponyville from getting cider.

* As [[WebVideo/FamiliarFaces Chad Rocco]] mentioned, had the Apples refused to allow the Flim Flam brother to use their apples, [[JustEatGilligan the episode's plot could've ended right there]]. But that was the whole point of a Flim-Flam: It's a pitch that gets you to submit to a deal that is completely unnecessary and only benefits the con.

* As [[WebVideo/FamiliarFaces Chad Rocco]] mentioned, had the Apples refused to allow the Flim Flam brother to use their apples, [[JustEatGilligan the episode's plot could've ended right there]]. But that was the whole point of a Flim-Flam: It's a pitch that gets you to submit to a deal that is completely unnecessary and only benefits the con.

!FridgeBrilliance:* The Flim Flam Brothers make the bet based on number instead of quality. [[spoiler:They know their Cider isn't as GOOD as the Apples', they just know they can make more of it faster.]]** Debatable. Watch Granny Smith's face when she tries some of the first batch...** Actually, they were betting they could beat the Apples' ''speed'' of making cider. Their first few barrels, before Twilight pulled the "honorary family" card, were made with the quality control ''on'', and those barrels would've been as good as the one they made in their demonstration, which only Granny got to sample. * Why does Twilight organize the group to help the Apple family, instead of pulling off an "[[Recap/MyLittlePonyFriendshipIsMagicS1E6BoastBusters Ursa stunt]]", even though it costs her the game in the end? The whole point is not "Flams vs. Apples" but "Flam way vs. Apple way"; reducing it to a contest of unicorn magic would make it meaningless.* Where did Twilight get the whole idea of "honorary family member"? [[spoiler:[[Recap/MyLittlePonyFriendshipIsMagicS1E1MareInTheMoon From the season 1 pilot episode!]]]]* The moral of the story seems to be more directed towards the citizens of Ponyville, because at first they were ungrateful towards the Apple family for not having enough cider for everyone, but in the end, they finally realize the value of quality over quantity.* Nopony besides Granny Smith really got a chance to have a drink of Flim Flam's carefully made cider, so having a drink of their poorly made cider in the end only made it worse for them. ** On top of that, the Flim Flam Brothers pretty much did a major KickTheDog in front of the entire town that visibly upset the majority of them. Not only did the town taste some rotten cider, they realized how rotten the Flim Flam Brothers really were.* It's not the first time that a line of campers forms overnight to be the first to get an [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Inc Apple]] [[DoubleEntendre product.]]* The reason why Applejack said she didn't learn a lesson from all this? [[Recap/MyLittlePonyFriendshipIsMagicS1E4ApplebuckSeason She already did.]]* We start seeing more mangled/smashed apples in the Flim Flam brothers' machine at the same time it started sucking up the trees as well as the apples!* So you think the Flim Flam Brothers are going to get away with this scot-free and try it again in another part of Equestria, right? When you realize just how BIG the Apple family is, they're going to be hard pressed to find any more willing suppliers for their machine once word gets out.** Oh and not to mention that Applejack has her Uncle and Aunt Orange from Manehattan. What's to say they won't come in and learn this from their Apple family members and then spread the word about this all to their rich friends? And what's to say that these rich friends will also make sure that no pony ever helps out the Flim Flam brothers ever again.** Dodge Junction is out, too, since Applejack got in good with Cherry Jubilee.** It gets worse when you remember not only is the Apple Family HUGE, it's also tight knit. Odds are the Apple Family is going to be TICKED.** And Applejack's not the only one with connections. Rarity has plenty of contacts in Canterlot, so Flim and Flam probably can't set up shop there. And that's assuming Twilight or Spike doesn't mention it to '''Princess Celestia''', who could presumably shut them down entirely, fine the living heck out of them, or [[MemeticMutation banish them to the moon]]. '''''Especially''''' since they were pretty much forcing both an Element of Harmony ''and'' the practical founder of Ponyville out of town.** Even without all that, Ponyville's entire population hates them. Word of mouth spreads and everypony knows their jerks and {{Con Artist}}s or thinks their cider sucks. Even without the Apple Family or Princess interfering, they're in deep horse apples.** The funny thing is they could start over, as long as they change the name of their business, keep quality control, hide their machine, buy apples through a middleman, and most importantly ''don't act like jerks''.* It seems weird how Dash seemed to jump ship for the Flim-Flam brothers so quickly, but if you'll notice, she stopped showing any support for them or any want for their cider once the whole thing became a competition with her friend's farm on the line.** That and her first reaction to the Flim-Flam Brothers' KickTheDog moment is to try and kick their flanks for hurting her friend.** She does bear the Element of Loyalty, after all.* As much as Applejack claims she learned no lesson, one very good moral to be taken from this episode is to have both quantity and quality rather than one or the other. The Apples might have had excellent cider, but their business model was to make five barrels for each day, rather than make as many barrels at they could in a row and then serve from those. The only reason the Flim Flam brothers had even a chance WAS because the Apples did not make enough cider.* It seems weird that Pinkie Pie would invite a bunch of ponies to camp out but leave Rainbow Dash entirely out of it, right? Well, there's a good chance Rainbow went to sleep early so that she could get up at dawn. Pinkie wouldn't want to disturb her friend's rest.* Of course the cider is non-alcoholic. It's freshly pressed, unfiltered apple juice. And with Ponyville's population buying it all, it never has time to ferment and become alcoholic. [[AWizardDidIt Unless a unicorn has something to do with that as well]].** Considering that cider is not inherently alcoholic in America and Canada, the cider needs no excuse to be non-alchoholic. (In other parts of the world "Cider" is generally the alcoholic version, while "Apple cider" is the non-alcoholic variety).* One of the brothers appears to have half an apple as his Cutie Mark. This would mean that his apple-related ideas are... [[spoiler: [[StealthPun half-assed.]]]]** But I noticed otherwise: One of them has a slice of apple as cutie mark, while the other one has the full apple(with a slice of apple cut away) as the cutie mark. Their cutie marks can make a full apple.*** Moreover, Flam's cutie mark is three quarters of an apple, and Flim's is the remaining quarter. Remember that percentage deal they proposed to the Apple family?** Flim (the single-apple-slice one with the higher Samuel Vincent voice) is the one who does most of the talking, but Flam (the mustached one with the majority of the apple piece cutie mark and lower [=Scott McNeil=] voice) does more of the mechanical operation of the machine.* Why does Rainbow Dash bother to wake Fluttershy, fly her to the line and even put her in front of herself, essentially risking not getting a drop of cider? Because she is being loyal to Fluttershy, who is known to be very clumsy about getting somewhere in time, as Angel knows. Dash is making sure, Fluttershy has a good chance of getting cider. ** She even lets Fluttershy go ahead of her on the first day, though it comes back to bite her when Fluttershy gets the day's last mug.* Why do the townsponies have no problem with any of this contest until the Flim Flam Brothers actually ''win''? It's never publicly stated the Apples will lose their farm if they lose until the Brothers actually win, revealing to everypony that [[MyGodWhatHaveIDone their impatience has cost the Apples their home and their livelihood.]]* A small one but the scene where Fluttershy covers herself in embarrasment after Rainbow Dash throws rips her covers away is a little more than a call back to when Rarity didn't want to let Spike in when the girls are getting dressed from an earlier episode. [[http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Recap/MyLittlePonyFriendshipIsMagicS1E20GreenIsntYourColor Think, who does Fluttershy hang out with the most from the mane cast?]]!FridgeLogic* Listen closely and you find that at no point did the Apple family actually agree to give up their farm or supply the Flim Flam Brothers for more then the contest. Only the rights to sell cider in Ponyville. If they can't sell cider the Apples would probably go bankrupt... but that still doesn't give the brothers the farm. ** They can't afford to keep the farm without selling cider. Applejack would've had to sell it to the brothers. Maybe it was a deleted scene.** Applejack mentioned that cider sales is what keeps them afloat through winter. They lose the cider business, they essentially go bankrupt and have to end up losing the farm anyway. Perhaps they decided it would be best to cut their losses, take what they have, and use it to start up business elsewhere rather than have their funds slowly deplete until they can't even move somewhere else.** They ''didn't'' have rights to the farmhouses or any further apples, or even would have known that the Apples probably would sell them apples in the future -- they were just being cruel and rubbing their victory in, and misjudging the crowd terribly when doing so.** Maybe the part where Granny Smith said (paraphrased), "If we win, I never wanna see either of you in Ponyville again!" it extended to if the Apples lost as well?* Apple supplies. TLDR version: Where did the brothers get the apples for the cider batch on their second visit to Ponyville?** Expanded version: On their second visit to Ponyville, the brothers have a barrel taken off them by Applejack. Applejack insists that they can't sell the cider because it's made from Apple family apples (main four members, or all the apple family?). The brothers then say that they can simply get more apples elsewhere in Equestria and come back with more cider. If there's another orchard they can get to outside of Ponyville, how could Applejack know that the cider was produced from Apple family apples (i.e. from Sweet Apple Acres)? If Applejack means all Apple family members rather than just the four, how can she speak on behalf of absent family members with their own orchards, and if she can then doesn't that make it awkward for the brothers? They'd have no supplier, so they couldn't stay in Ponyville and their promise to bring more cider is an empty bluff. I am assuming that the Apple family are the only suppliers of apples, but given how extensive the family is and how no other suppliers have been shown to exist I see that as a fair assumption. Even if it wasn't, I still see some logical problems in this dialogue however I interpret it.*** The most likely answer is that the initial barrel was made from the main four members' apples, and the brothers' claim to be able to get their own supply *was* an empty bluff. All part of their ploy to pressure the Apple Family into taking their bet.* What the hell were the Flim Flam Brothers thinking treating potential suppliers like horseapples? I can genuinely see them taking a cut in Quality Control for more barrels if they were panicked and gunning for numbers, but you never make the product about ego. It's on par with DickDastardlyStopsToCheat levels of ineptitude.** Seems to be the point. They were {{Con Artist}}s first, business ponies second. All they cared about was making a quick buck and their actual business sense was zero to none. Even if they'd actually kept Sweet Apple Acres, they'd probably have had zero idea how to run the thing.*** They'd probably just pick all the apples clean then sell the valuable farmland to someone else and head off with all the profits.* Applejack, I know Sweet Apple Acres is family owned, but please hire some help if you can't meet demands year after year, or at least impose some simple rationing like "One mug to a customer."** Considering how big the Apple family is, they could very well bring more of them to the farm to keep it family owned!*** They have their own farms to run. [[Recap/MyLittlePonyFriendshipIsMagicS1E4ApplebuckSeason We've been over this.]]** The Apples could probably make more cider per day if they wanted to, as pulled off in the competition, and it's not an issue of the apples selling better than cider as raw material and labor saved, so maybe they're specifically trying not to meet demand and stagger out supply in order to keep cider a commodity? [[ArtisticLicenseEconomics That's valid, right?]]*** Applejack said they were trying their best, so probably not. They only managed to make so much cider by literally working themselves to exhaustion ''and'' more than doubling their labor force.** When it comes down to it, the Apples seem to have a VERY poor hand in customer relations and business sense. Even if hiring extra hands is out of the question, there are a number of solutions that wouldn't cost them any extra money to implement, nor impact profts. They could impose product-per-customer limits, put a delay on sales to make sure they have enough to satisfy all of their customers, or at the very least impose a "waiting list" for the ponies in line who didn't get to buy cider on any given day. * Why didn't Dash just camp out for the second day? Okay, I know she's pretty impatient but given how bad she wanted some cider, you'd think even she could wait. Or hell, maybe even ask Applejack if she could spend the night at her place if she didn't want to sleep out side.** When she came to the campout in the evening, she found a bunch of ponies already set up in front of her. If the Flim Flam brothers hadn't showed up, she'd have started camping out again at noon.** Or ask Applejack to keep a mug reserved for her.*** An orchard owner giving special treatment to the weather team manager? No way ''that'' could have any nasty effects on both of their reputations. Especially not from the hundreds of ''other'' ponies who have to wait in line for hours without getting a drop.** If she REALLY wanted a mug of cider, she shouldn't have wasted time waking Fluttershy up, or should have used the Sonic Rainboom. Even if she wasn't first in line, a Mach 10 shockwave doesn't leave much evidence...** Well, she is one of the weather ponies for Ponyville. So maybe she had to work the next morning to make sure there were no clouds for the lines of people who would be waiting in line.* The brothers seem to think there's not more to an apple orchard than harvesting and selling. They would have come back and begged the Apple family to take care of Sweet Apple Acres eventually.** Considering their characters, they'd probably be more likely to ditch the farm when they used up all the crop and move onto the next town.* If the Flim Flam Brothers are, as described in their song, "world famous", what are they world famous ''for'' if their reputation as con artists does not precede them?** They're lying.*** Given the rural nature of Ponyville and all, they may be playing on the fact that its citizens wouldn't have any way to confirm if the brothers were world-famous and all, to boast more about themselves.** [[LeaningOnTheFourthWall Stage and musical actors?]]** Perhaps [[FromACertainPointOfView it's a spin on the truth]]. They're world-famous, but what they really mean is that they're known widely for being slimey businessmen.* People seem to be labelling the Flim Flam Bros, and they seem to be portrayed, as con artists. But watch the episode again - what makes them con artists? They never cheated during the competition. They never sabotaged the Apple family's efforts. When offering the business partnership, they never tried to intimidate or strongarm the Apples - when their offer was declined, they simply decided to take them on as business competitors. They played everything fairly and by the rules, both during the actual competition and otherwise. And as far as the "selling an inferior product" style of con artistry goes, they only started doing that when the pressure of the competition forced them to forego quality control in order to make up numbers - before then, there was no indication that their cider was any worse than the Apples', or even that it was bad at all. So what exactly is it that makes Flim and Flam con artists?** This is a fan thing rather than an in-universe thing: they're never referred to as such in the actual episode.** They're more accurately slimy businessmen, given that they tried to foist a crappy deal on the Apples, tried to run a longstanding family business out of town, and they were willing to let quality control slip to meet the demand of the contest (something the Apples refused to do). But between their song parody of The Music Man (which depicts a pair of con men) and the fact that very few people noticed Granny Smith drinking (let alone liking) their cider making people think the even the quality stuff was crap, and the fact that "con artist" roll off the tongue easier, I think the term was originally misused and it more or less stuck.** If anything, they suit the "artist" part of "con artist" to a tee - they've got their act down pat, know exactly how to work the crowd, and the like. One can argue that they knew watch strings to pull to make the Apples agree to the contest as well. The only difference is that, before abandoning quality control, they actually had a product to sell as opposed to snake oil as most cons do.** Well, they razzle dazzled the crowd. Their names are Flim-Flam, and they wanted 75% of the Apple Orchard profits with the Apples doing 99% of the work and the brothers only doing the magic for the machine. There's a certain amount of con involved in turning an entire town's positive feeling for their beloved farmers into negative. ** Unless they invented, built or financed their machine themselves. If they did that then they'll have done a fair share of the work, just as upfront investment rather than continuing labor. It would still be a really unfair deal but because the profit spit is unfair not the division of labor.** Interesting: perhaps they didn't invent, build or finance the machine at all. Maybe they won it in a game of cards (by cheating, of course).** They don't have to lie or cheat to be con artists: many of the most effective cons involve telling the exact truth, but simply preying on the pride or greed of the mark. That's what happens here (and it's coincidentally why Applejack, who's learned to swallow her pride before, is obviously unhappy about Granny Smith jumping on the bet). They're con artists because they tricked the Apple Family into a deal where the Flim Flam Brothers couldn't lose and the Apples ''had'' to give them something. In fact, the con is very elegantly tuned toward such a thing. Even if the Brothers had lost at normal speed, they'd have still have made a boatload of cider from ''free'' apple stock, all tucked away in a high-speed vehicle. And it's not like the Ponyville sales market was important to them, as you can see from how fast they leave. The only reason they lost in this particular case is their confidence and greed got ahead of them: they underestimated the townsponies' like of the Apple Clan (and presumably of the Apple Clan's influence outside of Ponyville), and when they thought they were only going to lose by a little, they weren't willing to let the Apples win.** This troper is on the fence about it. They didn't do anything dishonest throughout the whole episode, and there comeuppance comes from making a very understandable mistake (panicking under pressure and deciding to get the job done as quickly as possible). For me, they stop being sympathetic when they express a haughty attitude about the whole thing, and while I certainly don't consider them villains or even really that bad from what were shown of them, the fact is their hearts just weren't in the right place, and they let their egos get the better of them.** There is one bit of dishonesty in it, the Flim Flam Brothers can only make Cider faster than the Apple Family, since they don't have their own apple supply, in the end, they can't make more, even if that's what they seem to promise. * Why does Rainbow Dash tear up the last time the cider runs out on her? The barrel is empty, but the next shot shows it wasn't the last barrel.** I didn't notice until just now. Maybe she didn't either and just assumed that the world was about to screw her over once again?* At the end of the contest, Twilight collapses sweating and panting into the dirt next to Applejack ([[AccidentalInnuendo Get your mind out of the gutter]]). But....why? For the duration of the contest, she pulled a "You work, I'll supervise" and spent the whole forty-five minutes watching the barrels and keeping track of ratios. What, exactly, got her so exhausted? Did she forget to warm up her [[Recap/MyLittlePonyFriendshipIsMagicS1E13FallWeatherFriends eye muscles]]?** She was moving the barrels.*** She was doing that too, yes, but she didn't seem to be paying them much attention. Or any attention at all, actually. She had to dig her hooves into the dirt and grit her teeth to lift the water tower in Boast Busters, but here she just puts on a "whatever" face and absorbs herself in her checklist.** She had been holding her breath in the last tense minute of the competition. Stress could account for any sweat.* The brothers didn't pay the Apple Family for the apples they used and the trees they destroyed with their machine, escaping after committing property damage. They could have been arrested.!FridgeHorror:* The Flim-Flam Brothers machine sucking up[[spoiler: the entire apple tree, roots and all. Sucking up entire trees that could of have house squirrels and bird nested that might have baby bird eggs. And the thought of those poor animals getting crush to make cider is a [[NauseaFuel sickening thought]]]].** [[Recap/MyLittlePonyFriendshipIsMagicS2E7MayTheBestPetWin Good thing Pegasi never sleep in trees]].*** Any pegasi around were probably already in the crowd, watching the contest.** Add to that: some ponies actually did taste the horrible cider...* By the end of the episode, Sweet Apple Acres has let a huge amount of its raw materials be consumed to produce a product that will never be sold. Not only have countless apples been wasted, but ''entire apple trees'' have been destroyed, resulting in the loss of ability to produce materials (known as capital, in economics). How much this will set the family back is uncertain, but Sweet Apple Acres has definitely taken a hit this episode.** They'd recoup their losses soon enough. Losing the rights to selling cider indefinitely would be much more devastating.** Granny Smith said it was worth it to get one over them, so she at least clearly didn't mind.** And besides, there was about [[Recap/MyLittlePonyFriendshipIsMagicS2E10SecretOfMyExcess one time]] where the Apple Farm were stripped of both their apples, ''and'' their leaves, and yet they still manage to grow.* "Onto the next town", the Flim Flam brothers say. One: they've presumably done this before. Have they succeeded in driving other Apple families out of business? Two: they're doing it again. Will the next town's citizens be so lucky as Applejack's?** That's assuming that there ''were'' Apple families in the towns they've tried. In concurrence to the Fridge Brilliance above, if they'd driven an Apple Family out of town, their reputation would ''already'' be ruined, considering how tight-nit the family is.*** That's assuming the other Apple's aren't as prideful as Apple Jack was in Applebucking. "I wasn't the best." seems to be a running theme for AJ and may very well be in the family.*** It also relies on their being in frequent and regular contact with each other. Apart from the pilot episode of the first series, we rarely see any Apple family members beyond the main four, and they are stated by Applejack to be busy working on their own farms.** A reverse one for the brothers themselves akin to MuggingTheMonster: the fact they tried to run the matriarch of the large, widespread, and tight knit Apple family out of her farm will not sit well with any other Apple in Equestria. For this troper, it's like accidentally incurring the wrath of the Dixie mafia.** They've probably hit a bunch of other farms where the conditions weren't as dire, never stayed to exploit their cider monopoly (since they never bargained for long-term apple supplies), and may have even 'lost' previous challenges (but still gotten a huge amount of nearly free apple cider). Most of Equestria's farms couldn't have as many near-disasters or be so close to going bankrupt as Apple Acres.*** Judging from the brothers' behaviours throughout the episode, they seem quietly confident in their run-the-ponies-out-of-business scheme, which suggests that any experience they've had has been successful. The only time they both lose their cool is when the mane six starts beating them at the contest, which they clearly didn't expect. Possibly the main thing that helps them keep out of trouble is their constant travelling.

*** The most likely answer is that the initial barrel was made from the main four members' apples, and the brothers' claim to be able to get their own supply *was* an empty bluff. All part of their ploy to pressure the Apple Family into taking their bet.

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