Drilling through a flue pipe of a power-vented combustion appliance - Home Energy Pros2015-03-03T22:48:11Zhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/forum/topics/drilling-through-a-flue-pipe?commentId=6069565%3AComment%3A22751&feed=yes&xn_auth=noAs far as I can tell, the int…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2011-03-15:6069565:Comment:246032011-03-15T02:25:58.709ZDavid Meilandhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/DavidMeiland
<p>As far as I can tell, the intent of the BPI standard is to determine whether or not there is negative CAZ pressure, and whether or not atmospheric draft appliances are burning cleanly. Checking out typical 80% equipment is quite easy and I don't think it creates any issues. If TWO things go wrong--a vent that's being backdrafted, AND a burner that's emitting a high level of CO, you have a possible disaster. With newer sealed combustion equipment the likelihood is very low, but there can…</p>
<p>As far as I can tell, the intent of the BPI standard is to determine whether or not there is negative CAZ pressure, and whether or not atmospheric draft appliances are burning cleanly. Checking out typical 80% equipment is quite easy and I don't think it creates any issues. If TWO things go wrong--a vent that's being backdrafted, AND a burner that's emitting a high level of CO, you have a possible disaster. With newer sealed combustion equipment the likelihood is very low, but there can still be issues. </p> I agree with you about the co…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2011-03-14:6069565:Comment:245032011-03-14T23:40:38.486Zmarshall minshewhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/marshallminshew
<p>I agree with you about the confidence and training. I'm unclear on what level of combustion testing you would advocate for the BPI BA or Shell/Envelope person and if the current standards are allowing too much. The scenario you gave (assuming compliance with the current BPI standards) about the testing results is addressed in the BPI standards Adjustments, if required to be part of the work-scope, are required to be performed by a Heating, AC/Heat Pump, or other applicable BPI-certified…</p>
<p>I agree with you about the confidence and training. I'm unclear on what level of combustion testing you would advocate for the BPI BA or Shell/Envelope person and if the current standards are allowing too much. The scenario you gave (assuming compliance with the current BPI standards) about the testing results is addressed in the BPI standards Adjustments, if required to be part of the work-scope, are required to be performed by a Heating, AC/Heat Pump, or other applicable BPI-certified person or, if performed by a non-BPI-certified applicable specialist, it must be approved by the appropriate BPI-certified specialist. In other words, the BA and Shell guys are required to enlist the services of a more qualified professional.</p>
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<p>I think the theme here is what should and what shouldn't the bazillion auditors out there be testing. Everybody is trying to get on the same page about even the requirements of the existing standards. As new standards come out and existing ones (hopefully) evolve, we need as much consensus on the do's and don'ts. Surely we can come up with acceptable boundaries that will be safe and beneficial for all concerned.</p>
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<p>As a BA and Shell/Envelope certified person, I don't drill PVC, B-vent, stainless steel or any positive pressure venting system. I am still concerned about potential results of missed testing opportunities and wish there was an approved procedure that would allow the testing. The limitations of many scenarios prohibit some folks from accessing the exterior vent openings; ladder or roof work may be necessary and not possible due to weather or other liability concerns.</p>
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<p>I find it hard to believe that resealable test ports are not a requirement for all installations. Wouldn't this be better for everyone?</p> Eric, I am BA, Envelope and H…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2011-03-14:6069565:Comment:246012011-03-14T23:03:19.657ZChris Petershttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/ChrisPeters
<p>Eric, I am BA, Envelope and Heating BPI Certified. I have quite a bit of experience in HVAC. Some of the adjustments I could make, or I would either refer the homeowner to a HVAC tech or provide a service tech for them if it was a unit that I did not feel competent to repair. In NY where we have a very active Home Performance programs running, this has not been an issue or should it be. There is a great difference between placing a probe in a flue gas stream to measure vs. making repairs…</p>
<p>Eric, I am BA, Envelope and Heating BPI Certified. I have quite a bit of experience in HVAC. Some of the adjustments I could make, or I would either refer the homeowner to a HVAC tech or provide a service tech for them if it was a unit that I did not feel competent to repair. In NY where we have a very active Home Performance programs running, this has not been an issue or should it be. There is a great difference between placing a probe in a flue gas stream to measure vs. making repairs and/or adjustments.</p>
<p>To get back to the topic, BPI appears to be against the idea of drilling power vented (CAT IV, PVC vent). The reasons to not drill are the same as why the radon fan is outside the house and the pressurized part of the system is not allowed to go through living space.</p> Blaine &amp; Chris have noted…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2011-03-14:6069565:Comment:244042011-03-14T20:49:54.563ZEric Aunehttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/EricAune
<p>Blaine &amp; Chris have noted what should have been obvious to anyone considering testing mechanical equipment. Although many states may not require licensing for this procedure one should not attempt without the highest confidence and training. If you are not sure how to go about testing, what are you going to do with the results when they show that adjustments to the burner, gas valve or venting need to be done? I suggest hiring a competent service tech, leave it to the appliance…</p>
<p>Blaine &amp; Chris have noted what should have been obvious to anyone considering testing mechanical equipment. Although many states may not require licensing for this procedure one should not attempt without the highest confidence and training. If you are not sure how to go about testing, what are you going to do with the results when they show that adjustments to the burner, gas valve or venting need to be done? I suggest hiring a competent service tech, leave it to the appliance professional.</p>
<p> </p> I guess I can't see why one c…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2011-03-11:6069565:Comment:230022011-03-11T19:17:26.421ZChris Petershttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/ChrisPeters
I guess I can't see why one cannot go outside and test at the vent terminal. Then there is no question about drilling PVC vents. I'll sleep better that night knowing that I didn't drill a hole and leave a compromised vent which could have the potential to fail and cause an indoor air quality issue at some point in the future.<br/>
I guess I can't see why one cannot go outside and test at the vent terminal. Then there is no question about drilling PVC vents. I'll sleep better that night knowing that I didn't drill a hole and leave a compromised vent which could have the potential to fail and cause an indoor air quality issue at some point in the future.<br/> I hadn't seen those before, b…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2011-03-11:6069565:Comment:221962011-03-11T04:25:27.833ZDavid Meilandhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/DavidMeiland
<p>I hadn't seen those before, but they look like they're intended for plugging holes in metal ductwork after taking pressures.</p>
<p>I hadn't seen those before, but they look like they're intended for plugging holes in metal ductwork after taking pressures.</p> I have to disagree with you o…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2011-03-11:6069565:Comment:227512011-03-11T01:21:34.979ZChris Petershttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/ChrisPeters
<p>I have to disagree with you on using those plugs. Cat IV PVC flues are pressurized and need to be sealed. How do those plugs seal into the hole? Are they glued in? is there a problem with the fact that they are a lighter, thinner material than the PVC? What kind of life span do they have in a moist, acidic, pressurized pipe?</p>
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<p>This isn't hard, when there is PVC exhaust vent, you simply go outside to the vent termination and test the appliance. Simple, straight forward and…</p>
<p>I have to disagree with you on using those plugs. Cat IV PVC flues are pressurized and need to be sealed. How do those plugs seal into the hole? Are they glued in? is there a problem with the fact that they are a lighter, thinner material than the PVC? What kind of life span do they have in a moist, acidic, pressurized pipe?</p>
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<p>This isn't hard, when there is PVC exhaust vent, you simply go outside to the vent termination and test the appliance. Simple, straight forward and reliable and you avoid any issue with drilling PVC vents.</p> It looks like we've figured o…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2011-03-10:6069565:Comment:221312011-03-10T01:36:02.539Zmarshall minshewhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/marshallminshew
<p>It looks like we've figured out the CAT I versus III&amp;IV concern --good feedback. </p>
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<p>I had to go watch the youtube link (pt 1&amp;2) in Jack's question and, while it was clear and informative, it was incorrect on more than a few things. For example, at 3:04 he incorrectly states that an induced draft furnace does not need to be checked for spillage. Per BPI Building Analyst standards p. 10, "Induced draft heating systems <strong>shall</strong> be checked for spillage at the…</p>
<p>It looks like we've figured out the CAT I versus III&amp;IV concern --good feedback. </p>
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<p>I had to go watch the youtube link (pt 1&amp;2) in Jack's question and, while it was clear and informative, it was incorrect on more than a few things. For example, at 3:04 he incorrectly states that an induced draft furnace does not need to be checked for spillage. Per BPI Building Analyst standards p. 10, "Induced draft heating systems <strong>shall</strong> be checked for spillage at the base of the chimney liner or flue. If a chimney is shared between and induced draft heating system and a natural draft water heater, spillage <strong>shall</strong> be checked at the water heater draft diverter." (emphasis added)<br/><br/>At 4:40 he just "calls it" for the CO levels versus checking to see if CO levels have leveled off or are still rising. He must check to see if CO levels will continue to rise; if they exceed 100 ppm, then he must amend his workscope per BA standards p.14</p>
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<p>I think both draft and CO of the furnace could have been checked from one port (his draft port); it would still be undiluted flue gas. I could go on but it sort of feels like work. If they post my comments to youtube maybe I'll continue.</p> Thank you very much, guys, yo…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2011-03-06:6069565:Comment:209272011-03-06T21:39:23.971ZJack Baikoffhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/JackBaikoff
Thank you very much, guys, your answers are very helpful.
Thank you very much, guys, your answers are very helpful. Blaine, you beat me to it. Th…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2011-03-04:6069565:Comment:201222011-03-04T17:12:03.850ZChris Petershttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/ChrisPeters
<p>Blaine, you beat me to it. There is a huge difference between a positive pressure Cat IV and a negative pressure Cat I vent system. With the Cat IV (positive pressure, PVC vent) there is condensation and some of the condensation is corrosive due to the other gases condensing as well as water vapor. If a test hole is drilled, and the seal is compromised in any way the flue gas will leak into the CAZ which is usually in the basement and the stack pressure will carry the flue gas through the…</p>
<p>Blaine, you beat me to it. There is a huge difference between a positive pressure Cat IV and a negative pressure Cat I vent system. With the Cat IV (positive pressure, PVC vent) there is condensation and some of the condensation is corrosive due to the other gases condensing as well as water vapor. If a test hole is drilled, and the seal is compromised in any way the flue gas will leak into the CAZ which is usually in the basement and the stack pressure will carry the flue gas through the house.</p>
<p>The best way to resolve this would be working with the manufacturers to install a test port in the furnace cabinet that we can utilize for testing.</p>