Reflects Damage too Dangerous in v1.05?

Posted By: November 2, 2012

A fan offers some QQing about the Reflects Damage boss modifier and touches off a conversation with the always-sympathetic Lylirra.

Lylirra: We know Reflects Damage has been a little more challenging for some players in this patch, so we’ve been reviewing feedback regarding the affix pretty closely since 1.0.5 released. The actual values for the stat haven’t changed at all and, in general, it seems like the issue for players is really just related to increased monster health thanks to Monster Power.

Since monsters have a lot more health in the higher MP levels, not only do fights last longer, but players need to do a lot more damage in order to kill their targets. Of course, that means there’s a lot more opportunity for you to get hit with Reflects Damage. So, whereas before the patch, a player may have been able to kill monsters with the Reflects Damage affix no problem and with health to spare, now that fights are lasting longer that same player may not have as much success — at least, not without making some adjustments to their build or gear.

That said, we do agree that we can make some improvements. For example, we’ll be making it so that damage dealt by pets will no longer reflect back to the player. We’re also toying with the idea of changing Reflects Damage so that it has a duration and can only be activated by monsters periodically (rather than it always being active), but that’s definitely not yet set in stone.

NOOOO, don’t cave to these pussys.Lylirra: If we feel like it’s a change that will be better for the long-term health of the game, then we’ll move forward with it. We certainly appreciate your thoughts and feedback on the matter in the meantime. 🙂

I just wish reflect dmg monsters have an aura or something so I can identify it before getting myself killed.Lylirra: I’ll pass on the suggestion.

How about just changing it so RD can be dodged like pre-patch and all problems solved….duhLylirra: You could never actually dodge Reflects Damage in the live game. The bug only existed in the PTR version of 1.0.5 (which was fixed before we released the patch), so the “we fixed it” line never should been included in the live patch notes; it was, however, correctly included in the PTR patch notes.

I can take the heat for that one.

Despite having Reflect Damage being an everyday complain on General/PTR Feedback thread FOR MONTHS, despite realizing it’s a bad design, nothing was discusses by the CMs til now. I didn’t wanna complain about lack of communication but really :/Lylirra: We certainly saw the discussions before hand and passed them along, but there were no plans for adjustments that we could communicate until now.

Have you guys noticed a similar difficulty, and do you think it’s a bad thing? After all, the whole point in Reflects Damage as a boss mod is that it’s *supposed* to be hard, and force you to change your play style a bit. So that one type of monster can’t just be buried by ever-increasing DPS.

That debate aside, I can definitely second the motion to give RD bosses an aura or some other visual representation. Perhaps a rotating halo of tiny tombstones? I haven’t had the problem so much in v1.05, but in previous versions, while MFing in very low hps and defensive gear, I regularly nuked myself by attacking RD boss packs before I saw their mods. One cast of Stampede and a trail of Ball Lightning orbs going in and my DH would shrivel in less than a second. It was a bit reminiscent of MSLEs in D2, pre-v1.10, where you had to check the mods before you opened up, especially at close range, lest you killed yourself in a blink.

Sure there are some ways of mitigating the reflected damage. It’s just not fair when many things don’t proc LoH but reflect tons of damage.

Flux, change “play style” in the middle of a fight? if skills can be changed instantly and nv stacks are not affected in inferno, sure. In fact I’m happy to change my play style all the time vs. different mobs. But I simply cant and wont because this is just one OP affix, and I dont think its fair.

And you say it’s “supposed” to be hard?
the entire inferno was “supposed” to be hard
azmodan and diablo were “supposed” to be hard
even the act3 keywarden is “supposed” to be hard
just wake up and look at where we are, people kill mp10 inferno azmodan in under a minute with millions of dmg. we are talking about the best commander of the burning hell being crushed like a road kill.

azmondan the best commander in hell vs. a random elite pack with RD
which one is supposed to be harder??

Blizzard should not change it. Everyone complaining needs to look at the stupidity of their own build. 200K DPS, 30K life, no life-regen and/or no life-on-hit and/or no life steal… yes, dumb ass, you are going to kill yourself.

AFAIK it’s just an FU to non-melee, since they never has to worry about this. As a barb I don’t really have to care about 90% affixes, especially in wrath form. I liked the suggestion I read somewhere where it could be like shielding that activates on one or two elites at a time, instead of all of them.

Don’t know about barbs but my monk packs 100k+ unbuffed dps with 1k loh and gets STFUPWNED by RD packs. Only way is to pop serenity +fitl+overawe – dps 4 secs – kite – repeat after cooldown. And yes, I love that challenge. Hope it doesn’t get ‘fixed’. You can also keep a 900 loh 1-hand that drops your dps to reasonable levels but cuts the hassle. I do but its mostly for uber ghom.
Doesn’t ranged chars pack some loh/ls?
An aura would be helpful.

May I ask, when you run into an elite pack, why aren’t you looking at the elite’s mods before attacking them? To me, every elite pack should give everyone pause/fear before engaging.

May I ask, if you know you can make further adjustments why are you not making them? You should not be entitled to stack nothing but DPS to beat the game. You should be required to pay attention to blocking, dodge, armor rating, resistances, and the affixes of the enemies you are attacking. So far, Blizzard is failing miserably at this. A nerf or removal of reflect damage will just make this failure more complete.

From a design/functionality standpoint this is one of the least problematic mods, and I like that it gives me an extra dimension against which to think about when planning how I’m going to use the terrain/layout/selected skills to deal with a pack.

I haven’t had too much trouble with RD. I have noticed tho as I attempt to farm regularly in MP4 that some mobs hit way way harder than other mobs.

For instance, I ran into 3 elite packs today at the same time. Wasps, Fallen ones, and the Fallen Overseers. I sort of kited it. (just ran in a circle doing as much damage as I could without standing in flames or poison) I almost survived it. I was able to take out one pack and half another before I got vortexed to my death. I finished the pack cleanly on second attempt. Largely a success considering I was surrounded by 3 elite packs.

Then I run over to Alcarnus and run into a elite pack of the deranged acultists. They tore me apart before I even hit them. Wiping out my 46.7k health in a blink of an eye. It was their hits too, wasn’t even their affixes. I had to take careful leaps to stun them pull off a rend and run like hell over and over.

Pretty sure the deranged cultists elites have damage values that are out of whack with other mobs at similar levels.

I noticed the same issue with them in 1.0.4 on my WD, where I could easily facetank a few hits from any A2 mob except them. Similarly, my DH can take 4ish hits from most elites on MP1, but one hit from these guys takes my health all the way down to 25-30%.

Interestingly, it’s not just the Alcarnus version – I’ve run into the exact same inordinate damage issue when a pack of these guys spawns in Leoric’s Manor Courtyard.

I don’t have much experience with other classes, but my DH doesn’t really care about RD. The only time it ruins my day is when I’m playing w/ my Wizard friend and I get the +20% ranged damage bonus – I’ve nuked myself a few times accidentally since I don’t have a good feel for how much damage I’m putting out in that situation. Personally, I like the affix, because it forces me to engage the game, rather than just mindlessly spamming Ball Lightning while watching Netflix. (A visual cue, or the ability to prioritize the order of affixes, would be welcome — I’d certainly put RD and wall first if I could.)

That being said, I can see how it’d be annoying for people who don’t have Shadow Power-type skills. If it’s truly a problem – and not just a barrier to faceroll – capping the amount of damage reflected per second might be a solution. Say, something like 15%-20% of the player’s maximum health per second? That gives players about three seconds to realize they’re killing themselves and to take appropriate action.

Reflect damage needs to stay in the game. As much as i hate it, it is there for balance purposes. This is the only thing that prevents glass cannons from ruling the game. It is not perfect but i can understand why it’s the way it is.

Consider this logic. You are finding better gear. You are doing more damage. You have the same, or likely lower defenses after the defensive skills nerf.

Doing more damage with reflect is a perfectly natural development.

For me, stuff that was tens of millions before is tens or hundreds of thousands now. I’ve not even played that much since returning and my Barb’s DPS is up 50%, and Monk’s around 200%. If I were not so busy they’d have went up further. So yeah, I can easily see people killing themselves from rapidly increasing DPS.

I’m sorry, you need to learn to play. I play regularly with 2 friends that have DH’s as their main. One doesn’t give a crap about RD. He has a proper build and RD is a non issue. The other, he kills himself a lot. I’m not saying he doesn’t pay attention, but he built a glass cannon without enough mitigation, and a stray shot or miscalculation on whether or not he can shoot one more time when low on life, and he ends up dead. The build and the ramifications of it are a choice he made. He lives with it and doesn’t expect the game to be changed to cater to his build. And I find it a pleasure to play with him.

its still in the same vein though… its still a reflect damage, and goes in line with the fact that stats between magic and physical are EXACTLY the same, it would make sense that this diablo’s version of iron maiden is also all damage.

“Have you guys noticed a similar difficulty, and do you think it’s a bad thing? After all, the whole point in Reflects Damage as a boss mod is that it’s *supposed* to be hard, and force you to change your play style a bit. So that one type of monster can’t just be buried by ever-increasing DPS.”
Well, inferno was supposed to be hard too. But that’s not about DIII. Some more whine threads on the forums and boom, to the ground.

Back in 1.0.4 I and 3 strangers were doing act 3 inferno, second area. An elite back pack appeared. They had damage reflect but for some reason their ai or path finding was messed up and they couldn’t walk up a set of stairs.

Naturally the best course of action was to stand still and try not to get them un-stick while shooting them with ranged attacks. After a couple seconds of chain lightning then as a wizard I noticed something: the 3 others were no longer attacking. The other wizard and the 2 demon hunters were just standing there idlily at about 1/4th health.

About 2 minutes latter the pack was dead. No thanks to my party members.

Now, you can draw your own conclusion from this, but what I’m saying is that the average player builds there characters to do too much damage at the cost of damage mitigation and survivability. It’s not that damage reflect is too strong but people, being able to get away with glass-cannoning everything simply fail when they are put into the situation that their damage output directly influences their damage taken.

On the other hand, I do agree that monster power has an impact and that it’s not 100% because people don’t dress for the occasion.

But take into account class selection. I will be rocking my 100k dps unbuffed barbarian, he encounters damage reflect and its literally unnoticed.

My dh sees a pack and kicks off that fight like every other, 120k dps unbuffed (without sharpshooter,) multishot spam to start the fight, like every other, except after 2 casts of multi, with 2.8% lifesteal, instant death, if not on the first shot of multi then certainly the second.

Its simply ridiculous the extremities these two classes feel towards this monster affix: its either totally unnoticed or game breaking, there doesnt seem to be any happy middle ground, and that is what I think is most wrong with reflect damage.

As much as I hate to say it, I think RD is ok as it is. I like the fact that there are some boss mods that I actually have to think about and prepare for (although I wouldn’t complain too loudly if they nerfed it).

I would say that a better option is to give more ways to deal with it: my first suggestion is a weapon swap like we had in D2, so you can switch in a weapon with lower dps and higher loh, and for people who don’t mind RD, they can use the weapon swap for other things. That and maybe let rings and amulets spawn life steal (and/or make life steal a little more effective)

Reflects damage is a stupid affix. The game has health globes and did not bring in potion spam from D2. Lifesteal is only available on a few slots and is very low in value, same with Life on Hit. Also, healing from skills is lowered in inferno. All this seems to suggest the design is that life steal is not necessary, but then you’re fighting a pack of 5 monsters that each have 10 million health, that only drop healing globes when they die or at half health. It’s going to be hard to kill them without life on hit or lifesteal. Now you add in reflects damage? What’s a demon hunter to do?

You’re basically forced to use shadow power and only attack while it’s active. It’s even worse if you are geared with little defenses. The point of glass cannon is the risk of dying to enemy offense; instead, you run the risk of dying based on how much offense you have. What about wizards? They have very little in the way of healing, so they only attack with diamond skin up?

This is one of those stupid things in the game. You can’t play on the higher monster powers without certain requisite skills. Jailer, waller, frozen, and reflects damage can kill you outright if you don’t have the tools to deal with them. There isn’t much room for variety when every WD needs to have spirit walk, every DH needs shadow power and should probably have vault also, etc. Reflects damage is just one reason why life on hit and lifesteal make or break a good weapon. Just another factor making D3’s item system terrible.