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Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

Originally Posted by 1984

I have a problem with people who assume increased technology automatically translates into increased intelligence or perceptiveness. Humans are pretty simple creatures at the end of the day. We like to marvel at our own so-called knowledge, but we're really just a bunch of intelligent primates; fundamentally, we're no different than the first humans.

That's because our specie doesn't act. They react, and the things they react to, invasion, mating, and insults are timeless, and really have nothing to do with intelligence or preference.

Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

We should not treat the Founding Fathers as if they were gods whose opinions cannot be disagreed with...

Good thing no one has put forth such an argument.

After all, even the FFs didn't agree on everything.

There were some things they were all in agreement on; inalienable rights, free markets, limited government.

The problem is that many people who should know better (including posters here) think that whenever there is a controversy over the Constitution, all you have to do is see what the FFs say and an answer will magically appear. That concept is ridiculous, of course.

Who are you talking about, specifically?

Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux

In the sense that they treat them as superhumans...

Who's they?

...whose opinions are more important than those of average Americans, yes, they are.

Well, since the average American is a political ignoramus who knows little to nothing about the Constitution - let alone how to properly interpret it - I think it's pretty reasonable to place the views of the Founders above that of Joe Six-pack.

Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux

Why? They never used a computer, flew on an airplane, or fought a war in another country across the ocean. They were farmers and silversmiths and country lawyers.

Who gives a damn whether or not they flew on an airplane or used a computer!? I know plenty of morons who have done both of those things and as far as I can tell it hasn't provided them with any special insights into human nature or legal interpretation.

But they never intended the government of this nation to be set in an unchanging stasis dictated by the mores and beliefs of the early 19th century.

This has been a recurrent straw man throughout the thread. Let's stop pretending that anyone has made such an argument.

Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy

I would say that their ideas weren't more important.

The average American is an ignorant moron who knows little to nothing about economics, law, and political philosophy.

OF COURSE the Founders' opinions are more relevant than theirs'.

Do we think the average American's opinion on gravity is more important than Isaac Newton's?

Originally Posted by 1069

Well, if I recall correctly, Franklin did go over to Paris and help stir up the revolution. Spoke at salons, etc. He was part of the inspiration for it, I believe.
A small part.
But no, he did not do any actual fighting.

They all put themselves in great danger by fomenting a rebellion against the most powerful nation on the planet. Had they lost the war, all of them would have been killed and their estates confiscated.

Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy

Because it didn't need to be. Amending the Constitution is, for the most part, unnecessary.

That's strange. Why would the Framers put in something that was largely superfluous?

Most everything that we need, even as a modern society is there. All that needs to occur is for what is written to be interpreted and applied to current situations. Pretty easy to do, and it has been done for more than two centuries. If this wasn't the case, we would have to throw out and rewrite the Constitution every 50 years or so. Why, when this amazing document is fully adequate. This is also why, as Hamilton said, the language was kept general and not specific. So it WOULD apply to future generations.

If future generations can interpret the USC to mean whatever the hell they want it to mean, the document is useless and should be discarded.

Originally Posted by Arch Enemy

What do you mean they don't really exist anymore?

They've already been thought of and elaborated upon at great length by our ancestors; of course, there will be variations and permutations of these core philosophies and theories, but there are no "new" ones anymore.

Really? You don't think that being able to travel anywhere on the planet doesn't change human nature?

You don't think being able to exterminate an entire city with the click of a button has changed human nature?

You don't think the ability for a superpower to effectively eliminate every human being on this planet thru nuclear warfare has changed human nature?

You don't think the fact that I ate a more diverse diet this past month and most months of the year, than my grandparent's parents had in their entire life has changed human nature?

No, of course not. Human nature hasn't changed a bit. We're still fundamentally the same; selfish animals who are driven to survive and procreate.

Humans are creatures of adaptation. Human nature is determined by humans environment more than by human genetics.

There has been no fundamental alteration of human nature. If you and I were starving and a steak was thrown between us, we'd fight till the death for it; the fact that we both traveled on airplanes and had good diets wouldn't make a bit of difference.

Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux

And the amendment process is how the constitution is changed, which is why it is an evolving document.

Except that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about wrong-headed interpretations of the Constitution by the judiciary which legitimize unconstitutional expansions of government power.

Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

Originally Posted by Black_Zawisza

You're completely ignoring his main point. What he's saying is that aside from the prohibitions within the Constitution, anything that is not explicitly mentioned in the Constitution as being a power/responsibility of the federal government is relegated to either the states or private individuals. Tenth Amendment.

That is not what he said, period.

You over rate the tenth amendment. The tenth amendment has not been tested enough in the supreme court. In fact, I doubt that the court will ever rule on it's perceived meaning.

If the tenth has the meaning of which you speak then why did not Gore's lawyers use it when the supreme court over ruled the Florida supreme court in bush vs gore?

Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

Originally Posted by Southern Man

You appear to have a basic misunderstanding of the Constitution. It says what the government can do, not what it can't.

I have no problem understanding the Constitution. Seems as if you do. There are certainly things in the Constitution that prohibit other things. Read the 3rd Amendment for example. There are plenty of other things that are prohibited by implication. If it's not specifically prohibited, it's Constitutionality can be tested.

This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

Originally Posted by Navy Pride

You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.

Originally Posted by Wessexman

See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .

Originally Posted by CriticalThought

Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.

Originally Posted by ernst barkmann

It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

I saw someone on here the other day say that the Founders are dead so who cares what they thought.

What are your opinions on the Founders' ideas and what we should be doing with them (if anything at all)?

I think that the founders had a great vision for what this nation can and should be. As such, I believe that heeding their words is best for us. Do things change over time? Yes of course. But the fundamental ideals espoused by the founders is something worth keeping in tact and promoting. We may have to make adaptations for implementation of these ideals given the change in society and government. But the never ending fight for freedom and liberty is one worth fighting. Understanding what restrictions in government get you on this front is necessary. We can drive ourselves to a freer society by listening, understanding, and upholding the ideals of our founders.

You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville

"I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

Originally Posted by Navy Pride

You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.

Originally Posted by Wessexman

See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .

Originally Posted by CriticalThought

Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.

Originally Posted by ernst barkmann

It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

Originally Posted by Kandahar

It took 76 years for people to get around to amending the Constitution to eliminate slavery, and it took 131 years for them to give women the right to vote. Furthermore, when slavery was abolished, it was done so at the barrel of a gun...not because three-fourths of the states ACTUALLY wanted it abolished. That's a pretty major flaw, both in the original absence of those things and the amendment process itself. The amendment process is grossly insufficient for allowing necessary changes to the Constitution.

Those kinds of issues don't exist anymore. No one is being enslaved and no one is being denied a vote on the basis of their race or gender.

If something is "necessary" for this country, then the Amendment process is a suitable means to effectuate that change.

Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

[QUOTE=1984;1058753831

Well, since the average American is a political ignoramus who knows little to nothing about the Constitution - let alone how to properly interpret it - I think it's pretty reasonable to place the views of the Founders above that of Joe Six-pack.

Who gives a damn whether or not they flew on an airplane or used a computer!? I know plenty of morons who have done both of those things and as far as I can tell it hasn't provided them with any special insights into human nature or legal interpretation.

The average American is an ignorant moron who knows little to nothing about economics, law, and political philosophy.