In
this excerpt from David Godman's new book, Swami
Madhavatirtha recalls a conversation in which
Ramana Maharshi explained the differences between
his teachings and Sri Aurobindo's.

By
DAVID GODMAN

One
day, during the second week of my stay, I was
standing near the northern gate that leads to
the hill path. With me was a devotee who had returned
the previous day from Sri Aurobindo's ashram.
It was evening and Sri Maharshi came by that way
after his usual evening stroll. I wanted to ask
him about his views on the theory of creation
and the presence of the devotee who had returned
from Sri Aurobindo's ashram prompted me to refer
to Sri Aurobindo's views on the subject. I may
say here that I am well acquainted with Sri Aurobindo's
philosophy, for during my earlier visits to him
some twenty-five years ago I used to discuss with
him freely about these spiritual subjects. By
way of an introduction, I asked the Maharshi whether
he upheld the vedantic views on creation that
were promulgated by Adi-Sankaracharya. After that
we moved on to a discussion about Sri Aurobindo's
world view.

Q:
In the Vedanta of Sri Sankaracharya, the principle
of the creation of the world has been accepted for
the sake of beginners, but for the advanced, the
principle of non-creation is put forward. What is
your view in this matter?

This
sloka appears in the second chapter [v. 32, vaithathya
prakarana] of Gaudapada's Karika [a
commentary on the Mandukyopanishad]. It
means really that there is no creation and no
dissolution. There is no bondage, no one doing
spiritual practices, no one seeking spiritual
liberation, and no one who is liberated. One who
is established in the Self sees this by his knowledge
of reality.

Q:
Sri Aurobindo believes that the human body is
not the last on this earth. Establishment in the
Self, according to him, is not perfectly attained
in a human body, for Self-knowledge does not operate
there in its natural way. Therefore the vijnanamaya
sarira [the body made of pure knowledge]1
in which Self-knowledge can work naturally must
be brought down on this earth.

M:
Self-knowledge can shine very well in the human
body, so there is no need of any other body.

Q:
Sri Aurobindo believes that the vijnanamaya
sarira will not be attacked by disease, will
not grow old, and will not die without one's desire.

M:
The body itself is a disease. To wish for a long
stay of that disease is not the aim of the jnani.
Anyhow, one has to give up identification with
the body. Just as the I-am-the-body consciousness
prevents one from attaining Self-knowledge, in
the same way, one who has got the conviction that
he is not the body will become liberated even
if he doesn't desire it.

Reprinted
by permission fromThe Power of the Presence Part
One
by David Godman

M:
If, after surrendering, one still has this desire,
then surrender has not been successful. If one
has the attitude, 'If the higher power is to come
down, it must come into my body', this will only
increase identification with the body. Truly speaking,
there is no need of any such descent. After the
destruction of the I-am-the-body idea, the individual
becomes the form of the absolute. In that state,
there is no above or below, front or back.

Q:
If the individual becomes the form of the absolute,
then who will enjoy the bliss of the absolute?
To enjoy the bliss of the absolute, we must be
slightly separate from it, like the fly that tastes
sugar from a little distance.

M:
The bliss of the absolute is the bliss of one's
own nature. It is not born, nor has it been created.
Pleasure that is created is sure to be destroyed.
Sugar, being insentient, cannot give its own taste.
The fly has to keep a little distance to taste
it. But the absolute is awareness and consciousness.
It can give its own bliss, but its nature cannot
be understood without attaining that state.

Q:
Sri Aurobindo wants to bring down on the earth
a new divine race.

M:
Whatever is to be attained in the future is to
be understood as impermanent. Learn to understand
properly what you have now so that there will
be no need of thinking about the future.

Q:
Sri Aurobindo says that God has created various
kinds of worlds and is still going to create a
new world.

M:
Our present world itself is not real. Each one
sees a different imaginary world according to
his imagination, so where is the guarantee that
the new world will be real? The jiva [the
individual person], the world and God, all of
these are relative ideas. So long as there is
the individual sense of 'I', these three are also
there.

From
this individual sense of 'I', from the mind, these
three have arisen. If you stop the mind, the three
will not remain, but Brahman alone will
remain, as it remains and abides even now. We
see things because of an error. This misperception
will be rectified by enquiring into the real nature
of this jiva. Even if the jiva enters
Supermind, it will remain in mind, but after surrendering
the mind, there will be nothing left but Brahman.
Whether this world is real or unreal, consciousness
or inert, a place of happiness or a place of misery,
all these states arise in the state of ignorance.
They are not useful after realisation.

The
state of Atmanishta [being fixed in the
Self], devoid of the individual feeling of 'I',
is the supreme state. In this state there is no
room for thinking of objects, nor for this feeling
of individual being. There is no doubt of any
kind in this natural state of being-consciousness-bliss.

So
long as there is the perception of name and form
in oneself, God will appear with form, but when
the vision of the formless reality is achieved
there will be no modifications of seer, seeing
and seen. That vision is the nature of consciousness
itself, non-dual and undivided. It is limitless,
infinite and perfect.

When
the individual sense of 'I' arises in the body,
the world is seen. If this sense is absent, who
then will see the world?

Sri
Aurobindo

Note

1.
This is probably Swami Madhavatirtha's Sanskrit
rendering of Supermind, a key term of Sri Aurobindo's
philosophy. Sri Aurobindo taught that one could
evolve physically as well as spiritually. As the
subsequent dialogue reveals, Sri Aurobindo maintained
that when one evolved into this state, physical
immortality was attained. (Go
back to text.)

Copyright
2000 David Godman. Reprinted by permission.

David
Godman is the author of several books about Sri
Ramana Maharshi and his disciples. He was the librarian
at Sri Ramanasramam for eight years. For more information,
see our reference
page about him.

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READING ON THIS SITE

David
GodmanOur
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links to related reading on this site, and information
about all his books.

Sri
Ramana MaharshiOur
main reference page on Sri Ramana includes a biography,
links, and book recommendations.