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Topic: Orthodox and Anglicanism (Read 16080 times)

So back in the day particularly during the Oxford movement relations between Orthodoxy and Anglicanism were fairly cordial. What is the state of the relations today since Anglicanism has embraced the woman Priest garbage and all the other "things" that are part of the Episcopal Church these days.

Women Priest are going to happen in the Orthodox Church. It's just a matter of time and generations passing.I wouldn't use it as a line in the sand for anything.

Doubt it, but my question for the conservative Anglicans has been that many in there church have been denying the Resurrection, and yet remaining "priests," (and then there is "bishop" Spong), but they swallowed that. Women priests are the breaking point?

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Doubt it, but my question for the conservative Anglicans has been that many in there church have been denying the Resurrection, and yet remaining "priests," (and then there is "bishop" Spong), but they swallowed that. Women priests are the breaking point?

Why do you say this, ozgeorge? I was under the impression that is is something we stand firmly against as Orthodox Christians!

You will find ozgeorge is more progressive with certain issues than others.

« Last Edit: June 05, 2008, 10:29:41 AM by Friul »

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As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.-- Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS

I could certainly see the ordination of women being accepted by certain local churches under the guidance of another Meletios-type figure, for whom schism was a price worth paying for progressiveness.

Then again, there seems to be a general movement towards a more ascetic ideal (not necessarily in practice - fasting, for example, rarely occurs even among clergy - but there is a reverence for it), which would make such an occurrance unlikely as long as there remained strong and visible monastic communities á la Athos.

One can also look at the Roman Catholic Church, whose reforms have at times been more radical than some Protestant groups, and who are pressured by reformers like no other, yet have managed to retain a male priesthood.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this question. I thought it was our very refusal to change despite the whims of popular christianity that shows that we indeed have something to offer, and helps provide proof that we are indeed the original and true church (at least that's what I've been told over and over again). But I'm not here to argue the point at all-I was simply taken by surprise because I've never heard an Orthodox person speaking favourably of female priests, that's all.

So back in the day particularly during the Oxford movement relations between Orthodoxy and Anglicanism were fairly cordial. What is the state of the relations today since Anglicanism has embraced the woman Priest garbage and all the other "things" that are part of the Episcopal Church these days.

They're still cordial. You mostly hear about the Ecumenical Patriarch having meetings with them, though others might also have such talks.

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"as [you've] informed us that respect chills love, it is natural to conclude that all your pretty flights arise from your pampered sensibility; and that, vain of this fancied preeminence of organs, you foster every emotion till the fumes, mounting to your brain, dispel the sober suggestions of reason. It is not in this view surprising that when you should argue you become impassioned, and that reflection inflames your imagination instead of enlightening your understanding." - Mary Wollstonecraft

One can also look at the Roman Catholic Church, whose reforms have at times been more radical than some Protestant groups, and who are pressured by reformers like no other, yet have managed to retain a male priesthood.

Yeah, Rome just last week reiterated the excommunication of all those involved in attempted* ordinations of women---both the "ordainers" and the "ordained."

*John Paul II, Ordinatio Sacerdotalis (1994): "Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church's divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful."

If the Orthodox church accepts females into the priesthood then it no longer is orthodox and will have severed itself from the Body of Christ, if you see this run away from it and towards the Orthodox church.

...like Communing of the Body in the hand and the Blood from the chalice, but now, with a spoon........like Deaconesses being banned and now re-introduced........like women covering their heads in church and now not so in many Churches (in contravention of Scripture).......like monks being beardless and tonsured with the papalethra, but now grrowing beards and long hair (in contravention of Scripture)........

"For the times they are a changing...."

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If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Perhaps you'd prefer he re-word the post but express the same thing? By not defining "things" I thought him polite actually.

That was my intent. My Priest a Greek Orthodox before he retired called the Episcopal Church in the US a "gnostic sect with women dressing up and playing Priest." I think that was less polite than things.What I refered to by "things" was the fact that you don't need to believe in the bodily resurection or the virgin birth or any of the ancient creeds to be considered a good episcopalian.

To get back to topic. I was just wondering because I had thought by some things that I have read that during the late 1800's the Anglican's and Orthodox had lots of diologue and this helped to bring about the western rite. And I was just curious as to how things were going now days because of these changes in Anglicanism.

As an aside I have LOTS of respect for traditional High Church Anglicans. Much more Catholic now days then the Catholic Church, or at least they were in the 19th and early 20th centuries.

Is womens "ordination" being discussed by the Orthodox Church? Maybe I should rethink my conversion to "Orthodoxy".

Certain people, such as Bp. Kallistos, say that we should talk about it rather than running away from the issue. There isn't really a large movement for the ordination of women in the Orthodox Church.

« Last Edit: June 05, 2008, 07:56:42 PM by Asteriktos »

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"as [you've] informed us that respect chills love, it is natural to conclude that all your pretty flights arise from your pampered sensibility; and that, vain of this fancied preeminence of organs, you foster every emotion till the fumes, mounting to your brain, dispel the sober suggestions of reason. It is not in this view surprising that when you should argue you become impassioned, and that reflection inflames your imagination instead of enlightening your understanding." - Mary Wollstonecraft

That Orthodox were close to the Anglicans is a myth. Dont mistake liturgical abuses especially ones during a heretical patriarch to mean some sort of closeness to another religion. There is only One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic church, others are fallen away, "closeness" doesnt help them.

I don't know much about the big picture, but I can say that OCF at my university meets at the Episcopal parish that I attend. It's going well so far.

First of all welcome cascott1 to OC.net I hope OCF is doing great work on your campus. Secondly I think a lot of Orthodox have a misunderstanding of Anglicanism and Episcopalianism to the point that borders on primitive fear. I decided to study about the church cleared up my misunderstandings about it and can assure you that the high church tradition is closer to Orthodox ecclesiology and theology is closer than our Roman Catholic brothers.

Fwiw, St. Raphael is an example of someone who sat on both sides of the fence during his life. He believed at one point that the Anglicans "possessed largely the Orthodox Faith," and even allowed that "the ministrations of the Episcopal (Anglican) clergy might be kindly requested" in extreme cases when no Orthodox priest was around. However, after further consideration he felt that he had to "resign from the vice-presidency of and membership in the Anglican and Eastern Orthodox Churches Union," and came to the conclusion that: "the doctrinal teaching and practices, as well as the discipline, of the whole Anglican Church are unacceptable to the Holy Orthodox Church." (Source).

« Last Edit: June 05, 2008, 10:54:02 PM by Asteriktos »

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"as [you've] informed us that respect chills love, it is natural to conclude that all your pretty flights arise from your pampered sensibility; and that, vain of this fancied preeminence of organs, you foster every emotion till the fumes, mounting to your brain, dispel the sober suggestions of reason. It is not in this view surprising that when you should argue you become impassioned, and that reflection inflames your imagination instead of enlightening your understanding." - Mary Wollstonecraft

So back in the day particularly during the Oxford movement relations between Orthodoxy and Anglicanism were fairly cordial. What is the state of the relations today since Anglicanism has embraced the woman Priest garbage and all the other "things" that are part of the Episcopal Church these days.

Well, calling things "garbage" is umm perhaps a bit off-putting. Could you please give some examples of the things you have in mind?

Thanks in advance.

Ebor

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"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

That was my intent. My Priest a Greek Orthodox before he retired called the Episcopal Church in the US a "gnostic sect with women dressing up and playing Priest."

Sigh. Well, that's kind of sweeping, and doesn't cover the whole spectrum of Episcopalians or Anglicans.

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What I refered to by "things" was the fact that you don't need to believe in the bodily resurection or the virgin birth or any of the ancient creeds to be considered a good episcopalian.

I apologize for posting my last before I'd read the whole thread. Can you tell us where you got this impression please? The stories that end up in the papers and on the 'Net aren't the whole picture. Also, I think in the thread from a while back on Anglicans, there is some discussion that might be considered.

Ebor

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"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

Sigh. Well, that's kind of sweeping, and doesn't cover the whole spectrum of Episcopalians or Anglicans.

I apologize for posting my last before I'd read the whole thread. Can you tell us where you got this impression please? The stories that end up in the papers and on the 'Net aren't the whole picture. Also, I think in the thread from a while back on Anglicans, there is some discussion that might be considered.

Ebor

Well mostly I get this impression by what I see. All one has to do is open up a newspaper that has a religion section and you'll see what the latest crisis in the Episcopal Church is. A couple weeks ago I read an interview with "Bishop" Gene Robinson talking about how he is so happy to be a June Bride(if that isn't garbage I don't know what is) and this man is a Bishop of the Episcopal Church. Then you have diocese's splitting off and court cases regarding who owns Church property meanwhile at Christmas last year the ArchBishop of Cantebury said that the 3 wise men story may just be myth. We have an Episcopal Church in my town and their Rector writes in the religion section about all sorts of kooky left wing things. Two weeks back he wrote a column questioning the existance of not only Hell but God also.

If that's not enough two words:

SpongJefferts-Schori

I am not saying this to sound rude but out of sadness. I have been to a few episcopal churches and once one can get past the strange stuff they have a very beautiful liturgy.

Is womens "ordination" being discussed by the Orthodox Church? Maybe I should rethink my conversion to "Orthodoxy".

Fine by me. If the Orthodox Church has to define what it can and cannot discuss according to the lowest common denominator of the views of those who are thinking of joining it, then I think I'd want out.

« Last Edit: June 06, 2008, 08:25:57 AM by ozgeorge »

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If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Is anything being discussed by the Orthodox Church? No, there are no issues of change of praxis or whatnot being discussed by the Church, because the pre-conciliar commissions have not met in awhile. The Church of Greece has decided to restore the order of the deaconess in limited situations, but they're the only ones that have even approached the issue.

Well mostly I get this impression by what I see. All one has to do is open up a newspaper that has a religion section and you'll see what the latest crisis in the Episcopal Church is.

And the stories that show up in the press aren't the sum-total of any Church let alone the Episcopalians/Anglicans.

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A couple weeks ago I read an interview with "Bishop" Gene Robinson talking about how he is so happy to be a June Bride(if that isn't garbage I don't know what is) and this man is a Bishop of the Episcopal Church.

What *I* would call it is the the personal feelings and words of one man. I don't know him. He isn't my bishop. I didn't vote for him. He is one man and he gets press coverage because sometimes he says things that are, let's say, surprising or out of the ordinary. He's not the only Bishop, but most of the others aren't as controversial or perhaps flamboyant. However, he is still a human being.

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Then you have diocese's splitting off and court cases regarding who owns Church property

Yes, I know about that. It's not limited to the Episcopalians either.

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meanwhile at Christmas last year the ArchBishop of Cantebury said that the 3 wise men story may just be myth.

Reading things *in context* can be very helpful. The Archbishop is talking about what is actually in the Gospels and then how things have become attached to that. Here is what Cantuar+ said:

"Well Matthew's gospel doesn't tell us that there were three of them, doesn't tell us they were kings, doesn't tell us where they came from, it says they're astrologers, wise men, priests from somewhere outside the Roman Empire. That's all we're really told so, yes, 'the three kings with the one from Africa' - that's legend; it works quite well as legend."

It's not that the Nativity is a "myth" (like some of the headlines said) or that he doesn't believe in Jesus as the Son and born of a virgin (he does). It's the added on bits that aren't crucial.

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We have an Episcopal Church in my town and their Rector writes in the religion section about all sorts of kooky left wing things. Two weeks back he wrote a column questioning the existance of not only Hell but God also.

Is the paper on-line so that the column could be read please? I know that a lot of Montana papers have at least some of the publication on a website. Again, the context of the question or statement can be very important. What do you mean by "kooky left wing things" please?

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If that's not enough two words:

SpongJefferts-Schori

I am not saying this to sound rude but out of sadness. I have been to a few episcopal churches and once one can get past the strange stuff they have a very beautiful liturgy.

Well, Spong is now retired and doesn't get nearly the press coverage he used to get that I'm aware of. Can you please be more specific about the Presiding Bishop please, before I write on that point?

Thanks

Ebor

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"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis