I am so much thrilled and excited about how they may do here given their tendency to bomb!

Tomas has gotten higher levels and landed more jumps at the most recent event.

Caro has also gotten higher levels and landed more jumps at the last event. Besides Caro returned to the previous LP which would hopefully help her consistency.

On the other hand, they attend more comps than other elite skaters. Caro is also going to be busy with ice shows this winter. So I am not sure if they can fully focus.

To be honest i think it's in doing all the shows that Tomas has really learnt to play to an audience and find his feet artisitcally. I really love the way he dances to his music when he's on. I've only just caught up to watching Cup of Russia and while Tomas didn't really skate his best in the LP you could really see some sections where he really danced to every part of the music.

Interestingly I thought COR men's event was one of the most entertaining events. The two Americans (but especially Abbott) really skate to their music, ever nuance of the music highlighted by a transition or an arm movement.

In stark contrast I thought Joubert's LP was extremely boring and lacking anything other than cross overs and jumps. It was never more glaring than than in a field with that many musical skaters. There wasn't really anything in the program which was further exascerabted by having half of his jumping passes being axels.

Poor Kevind VDP also seems a lost cause in terms on presentation. I have never seen a more wooden skater attempt to pull off "choreography". I'm not sure his safri duo music really helps him either since it is more likely to alienate judges and audiences (not me i love it!). Is Joubert skating to Safri Duo in his SP? The music sounds very similar. I think Keven really aspires to try to skate more like Joubert (which would be a huge improvement).

I do understand that there are very different styles in the men's event and while i do think Joubert pulls it off more in his SP, the lack of choreography and transitions in the LP really left me cold.

Sorry i hijacked your thread and went off onto COR men's!

To conclude and bring it back on topic. I have a feeling (i don't know why) that Tomas may self destruct in one or both programs and put himself out of contention.

Carolina on the other hand tends to build and build throughout the season. While she's not my cup of tea at all, she is in much better shape so far in the season so i expect her to carry on getting stronger.

Thank you Ant for your response. I enjoyed reading it, as always.
I agree that Tomas is very musical. Even when he messes up with jumps, he still dances and entertains the audience. That's really cool.

I also have a feeling that he may miss some jumps in LP. Tomas does not seem to be very good at LP. Perhaps it is so long that it may be difficult to maintain the focus??? His programs are so complicated and he dances so enthusiastically that I imagine it may be mentally and physically consuming and demanding to skate for more than 4 minutes.

I also feel unsure about his SP because he has attemped to have a quad combo this season. Tomas's quad has seemed relatively consistent among all men. But it would feel like a challenge to land it in SP.

I am not sure about Caro, either. She seems to have been very popular and very busy, on top of having had injuries. But I hope that she could focus and do better as you said.

It would be cool if I could see them having two clean programs someday somewhere.

I also have a feeling that he may miss some jumps in LP. Tomas does not seem to be very good at LP. Perhaps it is so long that it may be difficult to maintain the focus??? His programs are so complicated and he dances so enthusiastically that I imagine it may be mentally and physically consuming and demanding to skate for more than 4 minutes.

I think you might be right. At COR Tomas landed a great quad, 3Lz/3T and 3A then suddenly started over-rotating his jumps and then doubled out on a lutz later on. I think it was more mental than a physical conditioning thing. I expect in terms of conditioning both he and Caro are at a distinct advantage since they train in Oberstdorf at altitude, so competing more or less anywhere else will feel easier compared to home conditions.

Originally Posted by Bennett

I also feel unsure about his SP because he has attemped to have a quad combo this season. Tomas's quad has seemed relatively consistent among all men. But it would feel like a challenge to land it in SP.

It is a tough call really - part of me thinks that since he does have a fair degree of success with the quad, it's worth putting it in, because so few men are trying the quad in the SP that if he lands it, it would really be an advantage for him. Another question i have is why the men don't try a solo quad toe and intend to do, for example, a 3Lz/3T combo. That way if they fall on the quad or have some issue that impedes the combination, they're ready to do the combo on another jump.

It is a tough call really - part of me thinks that since he does have a fair degree of success with the quad, it's worth putting it in, because so few men are trying the quad in the SP that if he lands it, it would really be an advantage for him. Another question i have is why the men don't try a solo quad toe and intend to do, for example, a 3Lz/3T combo. That way if they fall on the quad or have some issue that impedes the combination, they're ready to do the combo on another jump.

Well, Verner needs the Quad more than others because of his endangered (F)lip. He usually gets edge-called on his Flip, at COR only edge-warned though. If he landed the Quad he would eliminate the danger of getting edge-called and therefore gain even more points. I would like to see Johnny doing the same, the edge-call on his Flip in his short could become costly at some time.

Why don't they do a solo Quad? I doubt that any skater would be able to do enouigh different steps before the Quad - and therefore it would be punished with a deduction.

I think you might be right. At COR Tomas landed a great quad, 3Lz/3T and 3A then suddenly started over-rotating his jumps and then doubled out on a lutz later on. I think it was more mental than a physical conditioning thing. I expect in terms of conditioning both he and Caro are at a distinct advantage since they train in Oberstdorf at altitude, so competing more or less anywhere else will feel easier compared to home conditions.

Wow that is very cool! They should compete as a marathon runner, too, then!

Originally Posted by antmanb

It is a tough call really - part of me thinks that since he does have a fair degree of success with the quad, it's worth putting it in, because so few men are trying the quad in the SP that if he lands it, it would really be an advantage for him.

So true. Also he can avoid the flip on which he sometimes gets an "e" or "!".

Originally Posted by antmanb

Another question i have is why the men don't try a solo quad toe and intend to do, for example, a 3Lz/3T combo. That way if they fall on the quad or have some issue that impedes the combination, they're ready to do the combo on another jump.

Ant

I do not know, either.

Could it be something to do with the rules, I wonder?

At CoC, Tomas did 2T, 3A, and 3Z-2T in SP and the combo was not counted as an element because he violated the SP rule prohibiting from repeating the same jump except for the ones within the combination jump (e.g., 3T-3T). So I am wondering if you do a solo 4T and 3Z-3T, then the second Toe Loop might be kicked out. But I do not know if it could be okay when the numbers of revolution are different like that (???). Sorry, I am not knowledgeble about rules at all and this is just my naive thought.

Well, Verner needs the Quad more than others because of his endangered (F)lip. He usually gets edge-called on his Flip, at COR only edge-warned though. If he landed the Quad he would eliminate the danger of getting edge-called and therefore gain even more points. I would like to see Johnny doing the same, the edge-call on his Flip in his short could become costly at some time.

I hadn't thought about the advantage of losing the reduction on (f)lip but it makes even more sense, i think, for Tomas to try the quad in the SP. Not so sure it is a gamble that would pay off for Johnny - he has not had anywhere near the same level of success with his quad in competition and that's in the LP let alone with the pressure of an SP. Has Johnny had a competition quad ratified yet?

Originally Posted by Medusa

Why don't they do a solo Quad? I doubt that any skater would be able to do enouigh different steps before the Quad - and therefore it would be punished with a deduction.

I suppose that is the right answer - the steps leading into the jump, however, a number of skaters - notably the ladies doing a solo flip don't really have many steps (if any) leading into their jumps. I suppose the lutz lends itself more to steps leading into it.

Originally Posted by Bennett

I do not know, either.

Could it be something to do with the rules, I wonder?

At CoC, Tomas did 2T, 3A, and 3Z-2T in SP and the combo was not counted as an element because he violated the SP rule prohibiting from repeating the same jump except for the ones within the combination jump (e.g., 3T-3T). So I am wondering if you do a solo 4T and 3Z-3T, then the second Toe Loop might be kicked out. But I do not know if it could be okay when the numbers of revolution are different like that (???). Sorry, I am not knowledgeble about rules at all and this is just my naive thought.

I'm just guessing but i don't think the short program reptition rules would apply to double jumps so i don't think the problem is for repeating the 2T and more about the fact that the required jump in the SP for the men is a triple or quadruple jump preceded by steps. Did the jump actually not count at all (usually marked with a * on the protocol) because normally doubleing out would simply mean you recieve -3GOE across the board and take the reduction on the already lowered base value of the double toe - possibly leaving him with next to no points. I'll check the protocols now.

EDIT: Oh my god i've just checked the protocols and i think You're absolutely right Bennett - the 2T was scored as i said above, namely -3GOE across the board and then the entire 3Lz+2T was not scored and designated an invalid element with a *. That must be for repeating the solo jump in the combination! That is the most stupid rule imaginable. It should be re-written to clarify it is for jumps of three or more rotations.

In this stupid age of COP where skaters realise the point benefit of adding the combo to the second jump if you miss the first jump in the intended combo, this need to be rectified.

A insider from Oberstdorf told us, that they only good friends, but thats all.

What a pity! They can make a perfect couple together!

Tomas is such a unique skater, he always makes me feel happy while watching him. Technique and and presentation wise, he has EVERYTHING that can make him a world champion, and I love his programs.

But... he hasn't been able to put everything together in one competition yet. Will he ever be able to deliver both programs perfectly at the big events? I hope so, and I'm still waiting patiently for that special moment.

Tomas is such a unique skater, he always makes me feel happy while watching him. Technique and and presentation wise, he has EVERYTHING that can make him a world champion, and I love his programs.

But... he hasn't been able to put everything together in one competition yet. Will he ever be able to deliver both programs perfectly at the big events? I hope so, and I'm still waiting patiently for that special moment.

I agree with everything that you said here, esp. with the quote, "he has EVERYTHING that can make him a world champion, and I love his programs." I also dream of his OGM That said, there is a big "if" attached to this statement though. I am hoping that there will be some magical moment when he somehow will transform into a consistent skater. Takahashi made this transition so it would not be impossible for some.
I somehow would not expect this transformation to happen so soon at GPF after seeing what happened at CoR, but am hoping (wishing) that the time will come around the Worlds or the Olympics.