Charlottesville aftermath discussion thread...

How does what happened over the weekend not have its own thread? I'm pretty sure that in hindsight, this will end up being one of the biggest moments in US history of the past few decades

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I agree with Miss Caphat from the 'alt-right' thread that this may be one of the biggest moments in recent US history. An emboldened far right has, over the past few months, repeatedly invaded this town to exercise their first amendment rights and under that fig-leaf, cause a load of grief for both local residents and the wider population. The alt-right movement's provocative demonstrations have become ever more violent culminating in the murder this weekend of a socialist, anti-racist demonstrator by a far right degenerate in a car.

The fallout from this past weekend may be pivotal (or not) but one thing's for certain, discussion and debate will continue for some time to come. No doubt more demonstrations will occur and the potential for the violence that seems to follow them will likely increase (whether from the Police or opposed demonstrators and counter demonstrators).

So, in the interests of keeping the other threads on-track (or as on-track as an Urban thread can ever be! ), and in support of the above quoted statement, I offer up the Charlottesville aftermath discussion thread for the exploration of these events and, in all likelihood, subsequent related demonstrations...

I'm sorry if I can't add much to this thread probably...but I do want to say a few things

firstly, I have a different perspective than the one that points to the fact that this happened because of Trump. I do not disagree in the slightest that Trump's election has emboldened racists, however, I have been noticing with much dismay the alarming degree to which all forms of discrimination (most notably sexism & racism), as well as the prevalence of these agendas in mainstream and internet culture for several years in this country (U.S.).

secondly, I can't help but have noticed the rumblings on the internet from the far right about the coming "Civil War" they want to wage against "liberals" in recent months. I have no doubt this was intended as the first shot. I don't mean to be alarmist, but despite the huge outcry and people "waking up" to this (which I'm not hugely sympathetic to) I don't think this will be the end of this type of tragedy.

I'm sorry if I can't add much to this thread probably...but I do want to say a few things

firstly, I have a different perspective than the one that points to the fact that this happened because of Trump. I do not disagree in the slightest that Trump's election has emboldened racists, however, I have been noticing with much dismay the alarming degree to which all forms of discrimination (most notably sexism & racism), as well as the prevalence of these agendas in mainstream and internet culture for several years in this country (U.S.).

secondly, I can't help but have noticed the rumblings on the internet from the far right about the coming "Civil War" they want to wage against "liberals" in recent months. I have no doubt this was intended as the first shot. I don't mean to be alarmist, but despite the huge outcry and people "waking up" to this (which I'm not hugely sympathetic to) I don't think this will be the end of this type of tragedy.

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Agree on both points.

He made it more socially acceptable to express publicly but so many already believed in private, and his administration and the GOP led congress are paving the way for those bigoted views to be reflected in law and public policy.

Which leads to the second point - there's an increased likelihood white supremacists/far right activists will push the boundaries, knowing sanctions are unlikely. Hell, even appearing to be a threat was enough to make the Charlottesville police say they largely stood by because they didn't want to inflame armed far right marchers.

I think there has been hand wringing about Heather Heyer's murder at the weekend and the stuff about "this is not what America is," when yes, actually, it is. I'd like to think it will turn the tide, but I think it will be eclipsed by the next thing that comes along and it will fade away.

Sadly, I doubt there would have even been that much interest, had the person killed been the Black guy you can see being hit by the car in the very graphic photo. Scores of Black men, and women, have been killed by white supremacists and police already - some for protesting, most for just going about their business, without much public outcry, so . . .

Cheers, Nylock. It certainly does feel as if "Charlottesville" is going to be one of those place names that will become a byword for events that will be seen as a moment in history. Like George Wallace standing in the "schoolhouse door" at the University of Alabama, or the National Guard blockade at Little Rock.

Only time will tell if this moment will be remembered, like those moments, as a time when the tide of history was turning against the racists, or in their favour. It may only require a short time to be able to tell.

Well, Trump just retweeted a post from far right conspiracy theorist Jack Posobiec, containing a classic dog whistle reference to Chicago. Before that, he sent a weird tweet referring to the US being his home.

Any "regret' expressed about what happened at Charlottesville seems to be pretty short lived.

Well, Trump just retweeted a post from far right conspiracy theorist Jack Posobiec, containing a classic dog whistle reference to Chicago. Before that, he sent a weird tweet referring to the US being his home.

Any "regret' expressed about what happened at Charlottesville seems to be pretty short lived.

I said similar on the other thread but the prosecution of Fields has the potential to be the pivotal moment the OP talks about. In Virginia first degree or felony murder carries the death penalty. Fields is currently being charged with second degree murder but there's nothing to say that can't be increased. To some extent, it doesn't matter: the absence of that outcome (and possibly charge) would have its own repercussions.

I'm not sure that Fields or his prosecution will be the flashpoint or rallying call for more problems tbh. He might be a hero to the neo-Nazi elements in this, but there's all sorts of people that will disavow him for all sorts of reasons yet still be part of the wider alt-right movement. Some, for example, are already talking about it all being false flag to discredit them.

What will be interesting is if the alt-right organize to come back to Charlottesville in the near future.

I think that the events of the weekend will be seen in retrospect as a very bad day for the racists. I'm not usually any kind of optimist in this area, quite the opposite, but feel that Heather Heyer's murder will change things, as so often maybe someone had to die for people to pay attention, for the narrative to change.
Look at he desperate reactions of some of the nazis online (their absurd attempts to distance themselves from the killer who marched shoulder to shoulder with them).
The Daily Stormer seems to be dead, finally. Several states in the south look like they'll be removing their confederate statues, because they don't want to risk them become rallying points for more of the same. Trump's ridiculous belated attempt to distance himself from the nazis is a show of weakness on his part and however forced the words were they'll be a blow to the likes of David Duke and co who explicitly stated that they were there to fulfil the promises make by trumps's campaign.

More generally I don't think that these groups will ever again be able to gather and be mistaken for harmless patriots exercising their right to free speech. They'll now always be seen as the murderous mob they are, whatever the sentencing of the killer turns out to be.
Maybe the language can change now too, after everyone has seen the actual nazi flags and salutes and the actual murder, I hope that 'alt-right' their chosen label can be discarded in favour of something more fitting.

I'm not sure that Fields or his prosecution will be the flashpoint or rallying call for more problems tbh. He might be a hero to the neo-Nazi elements in this, but there's all sorts of people that will disavow him for all sorts of reasons yet still be part of the wider alt-right movement. Some, for example, are already talking about it all being false flag to discredit them.

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I think you're right to some extent, but I certainly wouldn't like to bet on it being so simple as general disavowal. At the very least it'll be something of a bellwether for far-right confidence, i.e. how comfortable they feel openly supporting him, and what happens to anyone who does.

Yeah, I think it'd be a strategic mistake for the alt-right to try and make him and his prosecution the issue. They'd be much more mileage in the Second Amendment/free speech stuff tacked onto the back of the stuff they already go on about.

Guess there's a likely dual path going to happen, with one strand being Charlottesville, what happened there and the reaction to it (which I could see escalating easily) and then the wider movement across the US (of which I have no predictions for).

Same stuff about everything changing was said after the Oklahoma bombing and Mcveigh's execution. Only long-term results were a) a movement of the far-right deeper into anti-US revolutionary positions rather than defence of the constitution - people need to understand that these people are not constitution supporters, they either explicitly reject both it and the United States as whole or adopt a weird reading where it only applies to white people who descend from the original colonists or and all others 14th amendment citizens to who most of the rights and laws do not apply - update maps! and b) deeper state infiltration of all 'extreme' groups and individuals.

edit: on a) the electoral far-right also made ground in the republican party through conservative citizens and similar groups at the same time. So even a widening split between the reformist and revolutionary wings of the US far right allowed both to expand and deepen rather than wither.

It's time to stop pretending that the same people fighting white supremacists are somehow exactly like them.

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But if there’s one thing the events of Charlottesville should immediately accomplish, in a world with even a semblance of reason and sense, it’s to one and for all bury the ugly lie that is the “alt-left.”

For months now, as part of the ongoing battle over the future of progressive politics in the United States, members of the liberal center have been warning about what they called the “alt-left,” the alt-right’s supposed mirror image. The term was first used in a Vanity Fair piece by James Walcott in March, in which he claimed there was a “kinship” between the two groups, and proceeded to rattle off a list of its supposed members, all of whom (bar Susan Sarandon) were men.

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Well, the neo-Nazi march in Charlottesville took place, and the same people who some have spent months dismissing as closet racists were on the front line, risking bodily harm to stand up against white supremacy. The International Socialist Organization (ISO) and Democratic Socialists of America (DSA) were part of the counter-protest, and their flags flew high after the alt-right marchers had gone. The DSA started a fundraiser to cover the injuries sustained by those attacked at the event, which has raised $138,000 as of the time of writing. Two of its members were injured in the attack on the protests. So were the family members of a staffer at Truthout, a publication that was critical of Clinton during the 2016 election, and one of whose journalists has featured on the “Trumpian Leftism” Tumblr as a “Bernie Bro” and alt-left member.

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There are some who are nonetheless clinging to a divisive and false narrative about the Left. The day after the incident, Daily Kos founder Markos Moulitsas wondered if anyone “outside of the alt-left” was “still pretending that “last year’s election was about economic anxiety.” A Daily Kos contributing editor blamed the neo-Nazi march on the “alt-Left,” who “in their drive to smear the ‘impurity’ of Clinton on economic justice issues, excused the racism and bigotry that is Trumpism,” which was “stinging very hard now.” Others made a similar point.

This has to stop. Heyer and those who were injured at Charlottesville are neither the first nor the last left-wing activists who will be hurt at events like this, particularly as radicals are often on the front lines of such confrontations. They deserve better than this.

Sad thing is that, if anything, Charlottesville will push the 'Anti-Fash are just Fascists' line into overdrive, for some at least. Centrist Liberals always do the same in reaction to the Left, they defend their core through condemnation, physical resistance is a tragic last resort but always one that shouldn't be used yet. For now it'll all be positive sounding speeches and candlelit vigils, with anything else damned as extremism/Brocialism/far Left agitation. It's a programme learnt by rote and one which is a damn sight easier to reassure the concerned base with than rallying around concrete action. Not that there's anything wrong with vigils and positive speeches mind, all for them, just not when they're used as a moral high horse to push away other forms of action. Which they will be.

Not sure how widespread it is but the video of militia walking the streets with heavy weapons and homemade uniforms was chilling.

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Not American so obviously can't talk for how routine it is day to day but those militias do increasingly seem to be everywhere. Endless public displays, including ones set up to intimidate gun control activists, working hand in hand with border security - including scouting the border for 'drug dealers' and being tipped off by them, rocking up at lots of tenuously connected protests to 'protect peoples rights'. They almost all seem to be right wing but tbh the most worrying thing about them is that they seem to think (and maybe even be accepted by some) as a legitimate presence who are right to be taking over the semi-official role they fantasise about having. The more that's fed the closer they get to a full on fantasy of replacing the state, which would make it right for them to take whatever action they want, something I'm not sure they're entirely certain of themselves yet. Saw a piece a while back where one of the leaders of a border patrol militia was slightly self aware and slightly worried that it's members would take that step into active involvement rather than glorified cosplaying in the desert. Bet plenty at Unite the Right were eager to encourage that.

Sad thing is that, if anything, Charlottesville will push the 'Anti-Fash are just Fascists' line into overdrive, for some at least. Centrist Liberals always do the same in reaction to the Left, they defend their core through condemnation, physical resistance is a tragic last resort but always one that shouldn't be used yet. For now it'll all be positive sounding speeches and candlelit vigils, with anything else damned as extremism/Brocialism/far Left agitation. It's a programme learnt by rote and one which is a damn sight easier to reassure the concerned base with than rallying around concrete action. Not that there's anything wrong with vigils and positive speeches mind, all for them, just not when they're used as a moral high horse to push away other forms of action. Which they will be.

My guess anyway.

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What would happen if we just stopped turning up to oppose the facists when they march? Oppose them violently I mean....Is the point of opposition to silence them or to counter their argument?

If the police had done their job and maintained a separation, arrested anyone turning up kitted out with batons, shields, helmets. Couldn't the violence have been largely avoided?....then again this is the US. If you can carry a gun in the street I'm not sure they can do much if you're dressed for the shield wall.

What would happen if we just stopped turning up to oppose the facists when they march? Oppose them violently I mean....Is the point of opposition to silence them or to counter their argument?

If the police had done their job and maintained a separation, arrested anyone turning up kitted out with batons, shields, helmets. Couldn't the violence have been largely avoided?....then again this is the US. If you can carry a gun in the street I'm not sure they can do much if you're dressed for the shield wall.

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The batons shields and helmets are brought along because of the threat of opposition, reckon they wouldn't appear at all if Anti-Fash weren't there. What would happen though is that they'd use their free reign to attack and intimidate communities, same as they do away from staged protests where they think no one's looking. Whatever shite they throw out about 'well ordered, peaceful marches' there are still plenty amongst them, if not a majority, who'd gleefully attack people given any (safe) opportunity. Them being Fascists and all.

For me counter-protests aren't so much about their 'voice' as their actions, communities need protecting and Fash need to be shown that where they turn out they won't be tolerated. Neither of which would I massively trust the police to do by themselves, it'd just allow for bigger and bigger marshalled marches and more proud Nazis who feel safe enough to spread their message and do what they want to who they want.

The police do seem to take a while to do anything in the US, i'm not sure if they're gathering evidence before going in to make targeted arrests. there must be some rationale behind it.

Still, I'm not sure having huge street battles is working either. they aren't scared of a fight, i'm sure many of them relish it. If they knew anything but peaceful demonstration would result in arrest I doubt they'd attend.Shouldn't it be dealt with in exactly the same manner we treat football hooligans? targeted arrests, travel bans for known twats, kettling/ coralling opposing groups,etc....we already know how to stop violence at events don't we?

The police do seem to take a while to do anything in the US, i'm not sure if they're gathering evidence before going in to make targeted arrests. there must be some rationale behind it.

Still, I'm not sure having huge street battles is working either. they aren't scared of a fight, i'm sure many of them relish it. If they knew anything but peaceful demonstration would result in arrest I doubt they'd attend.Shouldn't it be dealt with in exactly the same manner we treat football hooligans? targeted arrests, travel bans for known twats, kettling/ coralling opposing groups,etc....we already know how to stop violence at events don't we?

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It's easier not to bother, is one major rationale, maybe some sympathy from some cops too.

Anyway, no, some of them aren't scared of a fight, a lot more who might be there stay at home because they are scared and realise that displaying their beliefs on any level in public is trouble for them - be it physical resistance or public shaming. There are plenty here who know more than me so I'm sure someone will be able to offer background on the far right in the UK and when they were (largely) forced off of the streets. It wasn't the threat of arrest that did it, it was an awareness that the communities they wanted to attack would actively resist them.

The football hooligan comparison doesn't stand up well I think. Violence was their reason for existing and football was an excuse for it, Fascists, even if they love the violence, have an ideology which seeps into every aspect of life, not just one event. Away from mass protests they attack communities and individuals, they don't need an organised focal point to be bullying, vicious scum. Implement travel bans, for example, and they'll just stay where they are and attack people there. It's cultivating a general sense of fear for them that stops it, making them realise that there are no easy targets and whatever they do there will be resistance, real resistance, from people there.

Anyway, as I say, plenty of people here who know a lot more than me about the tactics and history of resisting the far right, just my 2p worth.