Hey all =)
I was just wondering what your views on fear vs respect are.
I have heard trainers say they are the same.
Personally, I completely disagree! I think a horse should have no fear of you but do what you ask because he trusts and respects you. A horse should just listen because he is worries about being hit. Just my opinion. What do you think?

To me Fear in a horse (or any animal) is when they have a flight or fight response to you or you preforming an action. For instance, if I were to beat my horse (yeah that'd happen lol) it would react negatively to my actions and would have a flight or fight response due to a surge of adrenaline through it's body because the brain has made the connection that I am (for lack of a better word) a predator.

Respect in a horse is when they acknowledge me as their leader and alpha in their 'people herd'. I like to say that horses have two leaders; they have their horse leader and then they have their people leader. Simply put, when the horse is around me or a person than the person is the leader; when they're out to pasture then the horse is their leader. I personally demand the same, if not more than, respect that they give their horse leader and would achieve this by using the same methods that they know from the herd. (So a kick or bite or smack, even body posture). Respect does not trigger the flight or fight response from a horse due to a persons actions, at least not to the extent that the horse would have if it was experiencing fear.

A good example is of a horse I helped train. He was very aggressive and belligerent and one day he had a little come to jesus meeting. He was scared out of his mind by us for about two minuets and then calmed down and showed us respect without any further fear. Respect and fear go hand in hand, you can't have one without the other. The horse knew that what I had done was just like when he was getting put in his place by his horse leader and that I would not go after him maliciously unless he came after me.

Sorry if that was unclear and wordy. I'm at the stage now where my brain is turning to mush because I need to sleep!

The truth is Traditional and Natural horse training are both "pressure and release" training. It doesn't matter whether the horse respects or fears you. The horse does the behavior asked of them because if they don't something they don't want will happen.
If you want a horse to back up you ask gently, then gradually increase the pressure until they respond, over time they learn that responding to the first gentle cue is easier, because the stronger pressure really stinks.

This is Purely a form pressure and release training they are learning from the release of the pressure. The pressure can come in forms as light as your mere presence, being chased around a round pen, being hit with a stick, gentle touching with your finger tips - all these things are "pressure". The horse determines whether the pressure is aversive or not. An Aversive is a stimulus the animal wants to avoid.
The trainer provides the aversive the horse responds, if they don't respond or if they respond wrong, the aversive is made worse until they respond correctly.

It doesn't matter if it's fear or respect. The horse is responding the pressure and learning from what causes the pressure to be released.

There are other options, but this is what the vast majority of the horse world uses to train their horses, whether they use a whip, carrot stick, round pen, or their bare hands - they are using pressure and release.
I would say horses are working out of fear if I had to pick one - not panic, but they are working under the constant threat that if they don't respond correctly they will be progressively be made less comfortable, have to work harder or be in pain.

I want the horse to listen to me because they want to. No they don't have to love it but they need to follow me because I am the leader. Fear is when they do something because they are afraid of the consequences. Yes similar, but I think a very different mindset. Fear is a negative emotion and leads to a stressed out animal. Fear will backfire.

Respect is earned by treating a horse fairly and with understanding. Fear is not. That is the difference.

I can understand why some people say they are the same. They are the same, they are also different.

Even without beating a horse as trainer's we do tap into fear. We never want the horse to be afraid of us. If that is the case something is very, very wrong. There are emergency situations where use of fear is necessary, imo. We want to teach the horse a fear of not respecting us. Either physical consequences, or being driven from the "herd". We do not want the horse to be afraid of us, we just need to use fear, a powerful motivator. There are also feelings of fear that are way smaller than full blown panic, just making a horse uncomfortable and "wrong".

Just thing of the #1 BAD thing you could/did do growing up. Now you did it and now your parents know. Are you afraid? Do you feel "fear"? I know I would. Does that mean you are afraid of your parents? Are you afraid of being hurt or mistreated (well, I hope not..) You love and respect your parents and maybe you are afraid of losing that. I know for me I would be scared of my parents finding out. If someone asked me why I'd say "because they'll be mad" and if that person asked why that was so bad... I wouldn't really have an answer. I'd just know it wasn't right. So while obviously the horse doesn't feel exactly like that I do feel that's a very similar concept. If someone had abusive parents they might have a reason to actually be afraid. If someone had kind, but firm parents that they respected, they wouldn't have the same genuine fear. There might be worry about the consequences, but I think most of the fear would be focused toward "I was BAD" and is not really the same as genuine fear.

It's like when the horse does something wrong. Then goes flying backward in a panic. It's because they know they did wrong and they know their in trouble even before you correct them, they "self correct" because they were BAD.

Respect has a confident trusting horse, fear does not.

I hope that made sense. I'm half asleep! Basically I would say they are not the same (by definition of course) or in practice though they are very closely linked. Using a horses natural fear in training is part of the work (even think desensitizing), using fear to train is not correct.

To add to what PunksTank said.. Teaching a horse to respond to pressure. Even if you teach using fear (the horse won't move so you end up chasing them). Usually the horses are used to human presence to aren't actually panicked, but even if you use an extreme, you train it down to a simple touch (for example). So the horse doesn't move because it is afraid, it moves because it's been trained to. Usually if you have to "up" (simple touch to push) as you do that the horse remembers the fear and complies. Again, I don't feel like I'm making sense.. last post before bed! I just don't feel the horse feels fear every time you ask them to move in a simple way. I think it's there, but I think it's our job to use it to our advantage and of course to the horse's well being. If the horse is in a constant state of fear it's abuse not training, imo. (Generally speaking). It is our job to use it, but to minimize it at the same time. I also feel there are a million degrees of fear, from blind panic (which we obviously aren't talking about) down to a little worry) and also the term can be used in slightly different contexts as well.

To add to what PunksTank said.. Teaching a horse to respond to pressure. Even if you teach using fear (the horse won't move so you end up chasing them). Usually the horses are used to human presence to aren't actually panicked, but even if you use an extreme, you train it down to a simple touch (for example). So the horse doesn't move because it is afraid, it moves because it's been trained to. Usually if you have to "up" (simple touch to push) as you do that the horse remembers the fear and complies. Again, I don't feel like I'm making sense.. last post before bed! I just don't feel the horse feels fear every time you ask them to move in a simple way. I think it's there, but I think it's our job to use it to our advantage and of course to the horse's well being. If the horse is in a constant state of fear it's abuse not training, imo. (Generally speaking). It is our job to use it, but to minimize it at the same time. I also feel there are a million degrees of fear, from blind panic (which we obviously aren't talking about) down to a little worry) and also the term can be used in slightly different contexts as well.

I completely agree with everything, expect - pressure/release isn't our only option. If it were the only way to train an animal (well then there would be no trained marine mammals - could you picture haltering a whale?) it would be a necessary evil - but it's not.
Anyone interested in learning the science behind how animals (horses included) are trained, how they learn - and what other options we have to train them without fear can read this thread (only the first few pages are information, the rest is just discussion)Clicker Training: Challenge Accepted

ETA: I'm going to nod politely out of the discussion right now, because I know my opinion isn't a common or popular one. I believe there's more than enough information I put above and on the link I linked to prove my point, I don't want to defend my point anymore (but I'm happy to explain it in more detail if anyone honestly wants to learn, just PM me)

I've seen horses run from grassfire and from mountain lions (not at the same time!). And I've never made one look like those did.

Though... I have put a bit of fear into a horse or two when they were dangerously ill-mannered. I don't mind that the few I've really had to get after keep a wary eye on me for a couple days until they get the whole putting up with being handled thing sorted out.

It was really nothing more than the way a horse pays attention to the lead mare when first introduced into the herd.

Respect just seems to be having manners, and understanding and doing their job when needed. Horses and I end up with mutual respect. I work for them and they work for me.

I completely agree with everything, expect - pressure/release isn't our only option. If it were the only way to train an animal (well then there would be no trained marine mammals - could you picture haltering a whale?) it would be a necessary evil - but it's not.
Anyone interested in learning the science behind how animals (horses included) are trained, how they learn - and what other options we have to train them without fear can read this thread (only the first few pages are information, the rest is just discussion)Clicker Training: Challenge Accepted

ETA: I'm going to nod politely out of the discussion right now, because I know my opinion isn't a common or popular one. I believe there's more than enough information I put above and on the link I linked to prove my point, I don't want to defend my point anymore (but I'm happy to explain it in more detail if anyone honestly wants to learn, just PM me)

I do hear you :) Just what you said made me want to make a separate point (why I didn't quote). I was speaking about "traditional" training. A good trainer will explore all logical options I feel. I know I for one am always interested in your opinion, and I feel it would be valuable to this thread.

A respectful horse is sure of you and knows what he's supposed to do. You can count on him. A scared one will sell out on you the first chance he gets in order to save himself. You'll only get by him if you're lucky and/or can really ride. Personally, there's only one kind that I care to trust enough to put a leg on either side of.

I personally think that they do have similarities, but at the same time they are completely different. This makes sense in my head, but I'm not sure if it will once I've tried to write it down...

For example, take my horse when being handled with me versus my mother. When my mother handles him, she coddles him. She doesn't raise her voice to him, even when he's being obnoxious. He basically walks all over her. There have also been times when my mother has been scared of him because he was acting up.

When I handle my horse, there are boundaries and the wrong side of those boundaries have punishment. Whether he fears those punishments, I'm unsure, but he sure as heck respects me for them. If he isn't paying attention, I use what I like to call my 'monster growl' voice. I'm not afraid to give him a tap with my knuckles or a whip as reinforcement.

A prime example is when he was really acting up due to new horses on the property. He was walking all over me, paying no attention and honestly just being dangerous. My mother was terrified and wanted to just put him back in the paddock. I got my lunge whip and worked his butt off. I kept the whip flicking behind him - he stopped to stare at the other horses, he got a smack on the bum. He quickly learned to ignore the other horses, and I haven't had an issue like that since. There have been similar cases under saddle and I use my three step system when he's being stubborn - circle, kick, whip. He knows that when that kick comes, the next step is the whip so he'd better smarten up his act.

I guess to some people my method might seem to be based on fear, but my horse has never shown any signs of being afraid of me. He knows that I am the one in charge, and he follows obediently most of the way because doing what I say has never had bad repercussions, whilst doing the wrong this has. That has made him trust me to be his leader. He has learned right from wrong as much as any horse could, I swear he has apologized to me after the worst occasions, walking up and resting his head lightly against my back.

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