The early heroic dungeons of Cataclysm, before their nerf, was the most fun I've ever had when running dungeons. After their nerf, ever since then, and all-throughout Wrath of the lich king before, they were just a bloody boring waste of time.

Agreed, 5 mans are a boring waste of time, with 2 competent dps they're over in under 10 minutes these days.

Funny you say that when that was what Blizzard was preaching in Cata and look how that turned out. Anemic amount of content that started out middle of the line and went downhill fast in quality.

I have not seen T15 though I would not call the first tier all that good with Terrace being quite the let down for the last raid of a tier and being the most simplistic and bland in terms of fight mechanics. I would rank T14 slightly above T11. So far MoP just feels like quantity over quality for me.

I am pretty confused about this statement.

It is very arguable that T11 was the best raid tier in Cata, (Heroic Rag was probably the best fight but the rest of T12 was just "good").

It seems like general opinion is that T15 is better than T14, and in your opinion T14 was slightly better than T11.

You are actually supporting my point not negating it.

In most peoples opinion Ulduar is still the pinnacle of raiding, but it was preceded by Naxx 25 and followed by ToC.

They are producing quality raid content consistently and they are producing it in a quicker time frame.

Do I think Ulduar was probably the best raid tier in WoW history?

Sure I can buy that most people think that, it was really really good but there is also a "rose tinted glasses" factor than we need to account for.

I personally think T11 was (and still is) the best raid tier in WoW history.

But T14 and T15 and both really good as well they are being "consistent" and they are producing the content quicker.

I am very intrigued at how SoO turns out so maybe we should revisit this at the end of MoP but all the signs are positive "right now", but I have been let down by Blizzard recently (T13 I am looking at you!!)

---------- Post added 2013-04-06 at 09:10 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Millie

Oh boy, the "My opinion is fact" guy shows up.

Really really strong counter argument.

I guess the person I was countering was not quoting is opinion as fact then was (s)he?

BC was probably the best expansion in terms of the sheer amount of content it had. 15 dungeons, multiple group quests(today they call those scenarios), T4(karazhan, gruul, mag) AND T5(SSC/TK) all available at the start of the expansion.

I'm sure 5-mans have their place, but really with so many other ways to get gear and tell a story available now Blizzard is forced to spread out more.

Hate dailies all you want but I think they're a good way for people with short amounts of playtime a day to feel like they've accomplished something. (And the PvP dailies save me the cringe-fest that is public battlegrounds) And I think scenarios also enable a much more dynamic approach to story telling than dungeons which 9/10 times are just "Go from A to B committing genocide on the way."

I'm sure 5-mans have their place, but really with so many other ways to get gear and tell a story available now Blizzard is forced to spread out more.

Hate dailies all you want but I think they're a good way for people with short amounts of playtime a day to feel like they've accomplished something. (And the PvP dailies save me the cringe-fest that is public battlegrounds) And I think scenarios also enable a much more dynamic approach to story telling than dungeons which 9/10 times are just "Go from A to B committing genocide on the way."

Lol, true, but when I do a scenario nowadays it's only for valor on my 2 mains, and I don't read anything of the story either, just kill everything till you get valor, leave before even getting loot (if you leave immediately you get the cache but you will never be able to open it, just delete).

for this entire expansion that i've been playing my monk, i've wanted to switch classes. unfortunately, i can't just jump into the latest new 5 mans to gear up close to enough to be able to enter the latest raid, or at least the raid before it, before the current newest.

this is because they want you to go through the same process people went through months and months prior. they want you to be gated by valor, since they haven't switched any valor rewards to honor. they want to gate you with rep, then they want to gate you with ilvl for raids, then gate you with rng. I've had to stick with my monk because by that time, this expansions going to be over. they just want you to keep playing and playing, that's all it is. "oh, i main is geared, my alts are geared, time to not ever log on the game except for raids, thus making me want to end my sub."

they could've spent all of the time on these pointless scenarios and put it into new dungeons.

I don't see why they can't do what they just did with the scenarios, giving them a heroic version. Just make dungeons scale to 90 and then create heroic versions of those, that require you to create a group on your server.

So based on difficulty, it would go something like this: (easiest to hardest)

I like dungeons. They're smaller and faster than raids, but can still provide challenge and enjoyable encounters in a way that scenarios simply can't. And I guess I'm one of the people that actually enjoys doing that kind of stuff.

edit: To me scenarios are just an elegant solution to the problem of having group quests in the middle of a storyline the player is in (and thus not being able to easily complete said questline), and in that regard they have done an amazing job. Being able to immediately find a group for the scenario book ending the questline you're on is great, and they're fast with minor rewards. But I'm quite unhappy with the way that they're being treated as part of the Dungeons/Raids PvE content group while I personally feel that they're more of a beefed up extension of quest content.

for this entire expansion that i've been playing my monk, i've wanted to switch classes. unfortunately, i can't just jump into the latest new 5 mans to gear up close to enough to be able to enter the latest raid, or at least the raid before it, before the current newest.

this is because they want you to go through the same process people went through months and months prior. they want you to be gated by valor, since they haven't switched any valor rewards to honor. they want to gate you with rep, then they want to gate you with ilvl for raids, then gate you with rng. I've had to stick with my monk because by that time, this expansions going to be over. they just want you to keep playing and playing, that's all it is. "oh, i main is geared, my alts are geared, time to not ever log on the game except for raids, thus making me want to end my sub."

they could've spent all of the time on these pointless scenarios and put it into new dungeons.

Except thanks to LFR i've had no problem gearing up toon to "ready for raiding" gear quality fairly efficiently. It's not HoT fast, but that's only because it was absurd of blizzard to put in full set gear dungeons which had gear equal to previous tier raiding one.

Sorry but I just can't accept it, I would love for them to go back to the Wotlk model. Except make 5-mans a little bit harder. The most fun I have in WoW is with 5-man dungeons, healing on my priest. After Cata/Wotlk I really haven't cared at all for raiding, I do it occasionally but its not something I enjoy. Too time consuming and usually no rewards. LFR is an RNG nightmare, one of my toons can be completely decked out in 503 gear while my other toon can't get a single drop from any boss. Scenarios are okay, but they lack any real incentive other than the daily run. After how incredibly boring Cataclysm was I really had hoped MoP was going to remedy that but it seems like they took everything that was unappealing about Cataclysm and multiplied it exponentially. Its a shame because the new zone and race are fantastic, but the gating, mindless dailies/rep grind, lack of 5-mans, LFR as a gearing force, and terrible PvP changes have made it one of my least favorite expansions. I'll keep playing till my sub expires in August and I doubt I will re-sub unless the game stops feeling like a chore/job and is actually fun again.

Last edited by Fullmetal89; 2013-06-02 at 03:10 AM.

"I can no longer sit back and allow Communist infiltration, Communist indoctrination, Communist subversion and the international Communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids. "
-General Jack D. Ripper.

What if they made a few new 5 mans, and then added an incentive to run one (or all) of them once each week. A weekly quest for each dungeon that gives a bag with a decent change to get a piece of gear between LFR and Normal raiding would keep them relevant for as long as the current patch is going at least.