I don’t believe you truly would be able to know how your crust will be without toppings of some kind. If you left just the plain opened dough in the oven for 6 minutes without any dressing I can understand the baked skin might be too chewy or tough. When I was making Panini’s (for sandwiches) the skins ballooned-up really fast and my bake time was less than 2 minutes. If I would have left the skins in the oven for much longer they would have become tough and chewy. At Reply 397 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg95671.html#msg95671 I took a video of making a Panini with my regular preferment Lehmann dough. You can see if you are interested in how fast that dough skin was finished baking. If you want to see when I did an experiment with just making the dough with NY water and regular water and just baking the skins that post is at Reply 291 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg91827.html#msg91827 I think that post with the first picture will show you how just baking skins will make the crust just like your baked skins and those crusts weren’t really good, but just to taste if a difference in NY water and regular water was better.

I am not suggesting for you to make a preferment Lehmann dough, because I only make a 1 day Lehmann dough for market now. If you scan though that preferment Lehmann dough thread you can see what those pizzas look like though.

Hi NormaThanks for the tips - I have been through some of your posts and you really WOW! me. I remember when you joined the forum, I wasn't a member for too long myself at the time, and now when i look at what you produce, you have really come a long way and best of compliments to you.

I will take a look at some of the posts you mentioned especially the one about the Panini as my Pizza(less) pizza is along the same lines. I suspected the same as you regarding the long bake time - indeed the dough was very tough and chewy almost like i had microwaved it for 10 minutes

I hope to not continue baking topless for very much longer - the purpose initially was to find the cause of my skins not opening up while stretching however now that i have found the point where it over stretches, I hope to fix that in a few more attempts with Pete-zza's help and then it's back to toppings and doing pizza the way it should be done - Gooooey cheese and yummy toppings

- any tips on what else I can add on top that would simulate a fully topped pizza but keep costs to a minimum since after I scrutinize the results of the attempt, I don't know what to do with the baked skin.

And then you'll have a parbaked skin that you can top and make a cracker pizza out of !! Tom's suggestion really is not full of beans...I think they call that "blind baking", technique used in pie/pastry making.

But I believe the moisture from pizza sauce is really what you need on there....oh, an some Raman noodles.

I will post the formula, method and end results a little later but for now I took peek into the fridge to see how much the dough has risen (After about 8 hours in the fridge - both doughs were about 76f temp before I put them in fridge) and I found that the dough hasn't risen much if not at all by the look of it. I now remembered a neat trick that Pete-zza once showed me with poppy seeds and I should've done that to track expansion but never the less I'll do so with next attempts.

For now though, I just wanted to gather some insight as to why the doughs would not have risen much based on the following differences from the last time I made them.

1) Last weeks attempt was made using a brand new package of IDY and placed straight into the freezer after use. When it was time to use it for this attempt, it came straight out the freezer, measured and used almost immediately in the dough mix.

2) The Lehman dough was made using water straight out the fridge and the Raquel was made using room temp water yet both doughs came out at 76F temp.

Since the Lehmann NY style dough is a low-yeast dough, it would not be at all unusual to see little, if any, rise while in the refrigerator for only eight hours. A single dough ball in the refrigerator will cool off quite quickly and, as a result, not ferment that quickly. If you were a professional making a hundred dough balls, they would cool down more slowly and ferment faster as a result. I have seen Lehmann doughs go twenty four hours and not see much of a rise. That usually isn't fatal. You can let the dough ferment longer while in the refrigerator and/or you can temper the dough at room temperature for whatever time it takes for the dough to show signs of life by expanding in volume, getting softer, etc.

The poppy seed trick is a good one because it forces you to pay closer attention to your dough. You will also learn quite a bit about how a dough rises with time.

My fears and suspicion of my yeast being bad was unfortunately true. Pete-zza's Poppy Seed trick as well as proofing my yeast in a little bit of water before use will be an integral part of future pizza making attempts. I can't imagine what it feels like when someone make a large batch of dough, say 50 balls and there's a problem with the yeast,

None the less, at least for my experiments in particular, not all bad came out from the experience. Here's the events that lead up to the final product.

The method was very similar to that found in the following post http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,22099.msg225585.html#msg225585Once again my dough quantity was very small for my dough hooks to initially start the mixing so there was a lot of intervention from me with my handy spatula to mixed the dough until it balled nicely and then the dough hooks manage to knead for me. I did find that before adding the oil, the dough is a bit dry but once the oil is added it all nice - is there any particular reason for not adding the oil with the water?

Dough temp at the time was about 70F and left in the fridge for approx. 19 hours and then left at room temp. for a further 3.5 hours. As soon as the dough came out the fridge, i tried the poppy seed trick to track expansion over the next few hours but the seeds never moved 1 bit so there further proved the yeast was bad. As i mentioned, all didn't end badly as it gave me the opportunity to test my stretching abilities and all i can say is WOW! I'm getting better at this (And i can toss now - yipppeeeeeee ). The dough was similar to my previous attempt with excellent extensibility but little more elasticity than the previous attempt - if i were to exemplify it into a % i would say 90% Extensibility and 10% elasticity. I don't know if dropping the VWG or the bad yeast contributed to this small difference but time will tell with future experiments. As for the baking, it was topped with Ketchup and some noodles (Thanks ChicagoBob). Bake time was about 3 minutes but no spring in the dough at all once removed he oven, the crust was extremely dense with no bubbles whatsoever and i was very careful with stretching the dough.

Same method as posted here http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,22099.msg225060.html#msg225060Again, dough was a small quantity so the initial flour/brine/yeast mixture was done with a spatula and left for 20mins autolyze. The rest was a mixture of hand kneading, spatula and dough hooks. I had a lovely smooth cohesive slight sticky dough ball. Fridge for the same amount of time as Lehman Dough with same temp once removed from fridge.Dough ball stretched open beautifully. Had better balance of extensibility and elasticity than lehman style - 75% extensibility 25% Elasticity - Not sure what contributed to this but difficult to say until my next attempt when the yeast activates. I'd like to eventually get 65% Extensibility 35% elasticity.Dough was easily tossible and then scooped onto the peel. Then it got stuck but thanks to TXCraig for the blowing tip - it works wonders and loosens the skin instantly and it does fly like a flying sauce Baked for 3 minutes but no spring at all. Dough was dense and no bubbles in the crust.

But a good learning experience in deed. I went out and bought some new packages of IDY - just out of curiosity, whats the best way to store my yeast because the package that went bad on the my last attempt was in fact a new package that was opened 2 weeks back and then put straight into the freezer after use.

I'm hopefully going at it again tonight so will keep you guys posted but feel free to give me any tips you may have

Flour (144.4966 Grams) + VWG (3.2734 Grams)1) Stirred flour, VWG together. This mix was left for about 4 hours as I had to leave home for a little while but when I got back and ready to make the dough I then added IDY to it.2) Salt was measured out but as explained above, all the ingredients except IDY were left for approx. 4 hours before use. Once I returned and was ready to continue, I dissolved the salt and water (room temp water)3) Added flour mix into brine mixture and kneaded for about 2 minutes on lowest speed using beater attachment. I had to alternate now and again with my spatula to gather all the ingredients neatly into a dough ball.4) Added oil using my hands at this stage and then placed dough ball back into mixer bowl and used dough hooks for about 5+ minutes. Dough was nice and soft, smooth and not sticky.5) Dough Ball Weight was 237 grams and temperature at the time of balling was 80 Degrees F6) Placed 2 poppy seeds 1” apart as centre as I could and oiled top/sides of dough ball before placing into oiled trayDough was checked at 14hrs in the fridge and it has already doubled its size. Dough was removed after 20 hours in the fridge and poppy seeds were 1.417322 and temperature was at 45.5 F straight out the fridge.What I found quite peculiar about this particular dough was the way it rose. Instead of rising uniformly all round, one side spread out more than the other. I’ve attached a pic for easier understanding as my explanation sucks a bit.After 1 hour out the fridge, poppy seeds were measured again and moved a little further apart to 1.65354 and temperature now was at 74.5 F. Dough was removed from the container at this stage, placed onto my floured surface and more flour thrown on top of the dough. Excess flour underneath the dough was moved aside and the dough was then stretched on the counter using my fingers and palm. Dough was then spread over my fist and hand stretched for a short while. I found that the extensibility and elasticity was perfect, I could stretch and it would spring back a little so I wasn’t too afraid to stretch a little extra because the springback would stop it from being oversized. I took extra care to protect the rim and properly define it.Once the dough was to my desired size of 10 inches, I placed it onto my floured peel, sauced it and then added cheese with slices of tomatoes. I had to constantly jolt my peel back and forth to stop the dough from sticking and then pizza was baked on my stone which was pre-heated for over an hour on 240 Degrees Celcius. I baked for 3.5 minutes before removing, slicing and serving.Overall, I was really impressed with the Pizza. The underneath baked pretty well but you would notice I didn’t get much leoparding however it was still crispy. The pizza overall puffed up as I wanted it to but found the rim to be quite bready, the crumb was a bit densed rather than large opened holes – it lacked airyness overall. The crust also lacked a little bit of tenderness and required a slight jerk of the hand when holding the pizza in your mouth and trying to bite a piece of it.

1) Just like mentioned with the Lehman Style, all the ingredients were measured and left at room temperature for approx 4 hours except the IDY which was measured just before needing it.2) Salt and Water dissolved.3) Half flour mixture was added to the salt/water mixture and then IDY poured on top then everything stirred using a spatula which eventually ended up looking like a cake batter.4) Autolyze for 20 minutes5) Added remainder of flour, oil and honey – tried mixing with machine but dough was too sticky and wasn’t being caught into a neat dough ball. I tried to pickup the dough but it was very sticky and kept grabbing onto my hands.6) I had to then add 2.5 teaspoons of flour which eventually helped bring the dough into a neat ball but it was still a little sticky so with little light flour and hand kneading, I got the dough ball together, soft, cohesive and not so sticky. This step took much time as the dough wasn’t behaving but all in all it took about 20 minutes. Dough was weighed in at 175 Grams.7) 15 minutes autolyze Dough was removed from Mixer Bowl, balled neatened, placed 2 poppy seeds 1” apart and then oiled the top, sides and placed into a lightly oiled tray before placing into fridge.After 20 hours in the fridge, dough was removed to room temps and poppy seeds checked immediately – at the time it was 1.12204”and temp was at 45.5 F.After being at room temp for 1 hour, poppy seeds moved further apart to 1.2992 and temp was at 75.6 F.Dough was placed onto my floured surface, and entire ball was liberally floured then all excess flour moved aside.Dough was stretched using palms and fingers before I stretched it over my knuckles. I found excellent balance between extensibility and elasticity. I then noticed the centre of the dough thinning quite quick so I placed it onto my floured peel, topped it with sauce, cheese, tomatoe and green/red chilli (yeah, you read right). Baked on my already heated stone at 240C for 4 minutes on the lowest rack.It all baked up very well, dough puffed up really nicely, and I had a nice rim, not too large and not too small where it couldn’t be seen. First bite I took of the pizza and loved the crisp but now comes the slight disappointing point. Like I mentioned in the lehman style about the pizza having a slight degree of toughness, I found the same with Raquel but a bit worst compared to the Lehman. It was really tough and chewy, needed a good degree of jerking movement of the hand to dismember a piece into your mouth when you try to sink your teeth in. It lacked a bit of airyness and also needs lots more tenderness.

Overall, both attempts were a major leap forward. I don’t know if the tough overly chewy crust in both Raquel and Lehman has any correlation but I cant seem to pinpoint the cause of this so any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Today I reheated the Raquel and was surprised how the toughness had become a little less apparent. I think the more appropriate word I should have initially used should have been Leathery. On a scale of 1 to 10, shoe leather being 10, my raquel pizza was on 6 fresh out the oven. After reheating in the microwave, the pizza lost it's crispyness but was a little less "leathery" for lack of a better word. On the scale I would say it went down to a 4.

I'm so confused right now, don't know what plan of attack to use in order address this "leathery" crust. I don't know if amending the recipe or possibly a flaw in my method or maybe even the oven and bake times - so many variables to change, just don't know where to start.

Guys, really looking forward to some advice.N.B. TXCraig - I've been reading through your thread and you are producing excellent pies - hope to get close to that stage 1 day.

Overall, I think your pizzas look quite good. However, I have a few questions and comments.

Can you tell me what inputs you used in the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/ to come up with the amount of VWG to use? Often a leathery quality of a crust is related to the protein content of the flour or flour blend used to make the pizza.

Once the VWG matter is resolved, some possible changes that you might consider for the Lehmann dough formulation you are using is to increase the hydration to 61%, increase the amount of oil to 2%, and add about 1% sugar. Hopefully, these changes will give you a more open and airy character and less of a leather character, and also tenderize the crumb a bit and provide more crust coloration.

I think part of your problem is that your oven and stone temperature are too low and the bake time too short. The 240 degrees C temperature you mentioned is only 464 degrees F. In a typical oven in the U.S., you would bake a pizza like the Lehmann pizza at around 500-525 degrees F (260-274 degrees F) for about 6-7 minutes. The higher temperature helps increase the oven spring of the dough, and the longer bake time promotes more complete cooking and browning of the crust. You will not get leoparding of the crust at those temperatures. Maybe eventually in your wood fired oven but not in your home oven at the temperature you used.

In using the poppy seed trick, I suggest that you use round transparent or translucent storage containers for the dough balls. That should prevent the dough ball from expanding unevenly.

I'm not familiar with Barry's Raquel dough formulation so there is little that I can offer by way of advice other than to say that most people will have trouble working with a hydration of 65.33% with an all-purpose flour, and especially with 2% oil and 1% honey, both of which further contribute to the "wetness" of the dough. You would have to use multiple stretch and fold and similar methods to hydrate the flour to the point where you can handle the dough without its sticking to your hands and work surfaces. These are techniques that require a lot of experience and skil.

I've just rechecked my inputs and results on the Mixed Mass Calculator and realized my error. The target protein supposed to be 12.7 but instead i used 13.2. None the less i've attached a picture of my inputs as requested. I should note that once before you showed me how to convert the weight of VWG into volume. I took weight of the VWGin ounces, 0.11547 and divided it by 0.0881834 and concluded as figure of 1.31 Teaspoons however when i weighed the 1.31 teaspoons, it came to 4 grams - I did then take out some VWG to bring it back to 3 grams but what can i do to make the volume coincide more accurately with the weight?One last point regarding the VWG, I had it lying in my freezer for over 3+ years and every time I use it I look closely if there's anything visibly wrong with it - could this have attributed negatively as well since it looks and smells perfectly fine.

Once the VWG matter is resolved, some possible changes that you might consider for the Lehmann dough formulation you are using is to increase the hydration to 61%, increase the amount of oil to 2%, and add about 1% sugar. Hopefully, these changes will give you a more open and airy character and less of a leather character, and also tenderize the crumb a bit and provide more crust coloration.

I'm definitely going to make these amendments on my next attempt and see where it leads too.

I think part of your problem is that your oven and stone temperature are too low and the bake time too short. The 240 degrees C temperature you mentioned is only 464 degrees F. In a typical oven in the U.S., you would bake a pizza like the Lehmann pizza at around 500-525 degrees F (260-274 degrees F) for about 6-7 minutes. The higher temperature helps increase the oven spring of the dough, and the longer bake time promotes more complete cooking and browning of the crust. You will not get leoparding of the crust at those temperatures. Maybe eventually in your wood fired oven but not in your home oven at the temperature you used.

I may have pulled out the pizza a little too early when i saw the cheese began to look like it was hardening after quite a lot of bubbling went on so I panicked a little and decided it may have been baked already but with my next attempt I will definately increase the cooking time to maybe 6-7 minutes and see what transpires.

I'm not familiar with Barry's Raquel dough formulation so there is little that I can offer by way of advice other than to say that most people will have trouble working with a hydration of 65.33% with an all-purpose flour, and especially with 2% oil and 1% honey, both of which further contribute to the "wetness" of the dough. You would have to use multiple stretch and fold and similar methods to hydrate the flour to the point where you can handle the dough without its sticking to your hands and work surfaces. These are techniques that require a lot of experience and skil.

Peter

I found the formula for Barry's attempt here http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7637.msg65529.html#msg65529 and also he shared it with me once before but specifically mentioned a brand of Cake Flour i should use which i have been using for Raquel and Lehman - he did mention he had good results but I don't think he uses this exact same formula anymore since he has opened his pizzeria. I don't think i'm ready to delve into the stretch and fold technique you mentioned so I definately will bring the hydration down to 60% or 61%. This will be the ideal move since i've read towards the end of TXCraigs thread that he has found 60% to be the optimum hydration and PFTaylor uses the same hydration level.

I've just rechecked my inputs and results on the Mixed Mass Calculator and realized my error. The target protein supposed to be 12.7 but instead i used 13.2. None the less i've attached a picture of my inputs as requested. I should note that once before you showed me how to convert the weight of VWG into volume. I took weight of the VWGin ounces, 0.11547 and divided it by 0.0881834 and concluded as figure of 1.31 Teaspoons however when i weighed the 1.31 teaspoons, it came to 4 grams - I did then take out some VWG to bring it back to 3 grams but what can i do to make the volume coincide more accurately with the weight?One last point regarding the VWG, I had it lying in my freezer for over 3+ years and every time I use it I look closely if there's anything visibly wrong with it - could this have attributed negatively as well since it looks and smells perfectly fine.

PM,

The conversion from weight of the VWG to a volume measurement need not be exact or particularly fussy. Any inexactitude is not going to have a material impact. The conversion number you mentioned is correct for a VWG with 75% protein. If your geriatric VWG looks fine and smells fine, it most likely is OK for your purposes.

With respect to your bake time, if the cheeses that you have available to you in South Africa cook too quickly, you might keep the cheese in the refrigerator (in shredded or diced form) and put it on the pizza shortly after removing it from the refrigerator. That should slow the cooking of the cheese and keep it from breaking down too quickly and releasing an excessive amount of fat.

The conversion from weight of the VWG to a volume measurement need not be exact or particularly fussy. Any inexactitude is not going to have a material impact. The conversion number you mentioned is correct for a VWG with 75% protein. If your geriatric VWG looks fine and smells fine, it most likely is OK for your purposes.

With respect to your bake time, if the cheeses that you have available to you in South Africa cook too quickly, you might keep the cheese in the refrigerator (in shredded or diced form) and put it on the pizza shortly after removing it from the refrigerator. That should slow the cooking of the cheese and keep it from breaking down too quickly and releasing an excessive amount of fat.

Peter

Perfect, I will make the necessary amendments and give all an update after my next attempt.