Its fine if you don't believe me, that's the majority of American growers right now. But like I have already said, autoflowers can outcompete light dep on the low-end flower and extract material market, especially for distillate and edibles. Elite-clone photoperiod flower production will still be happening in light dep.

I'm an American and I am not trying to be rude or a pot snob by saying this, but I would not smoke the flowers you are showing. They do not look as good as the photo-period plants I am used to growing and smoking. Where is the trichome production comparable to a photo-period plant shown in these pictures? I certainly don't see it, and personally I would rather have quality over quantity. As far as extracts go, you can't extract what is not there to begin with...your pictures show very low trichome count and small trichome heads when compared to what I am used to seeing. Pretty sure the percentage of yield for extracts would be far less on the flowers you are showing when compared to what I am used to.

GrowingHigher:

Some autoflower plants are perfectly acceptable to be sold as nuggety flower alongside photoperiods, a problem is variation from seed. You have to go and high-grade a field to get those nice flowers out. The fact they exist only means the breeding can and will move that way in the future. Imo, to say they have no purpose is very short-sighted.

Well, the autoflowers you show here are not perfectly acceptable to be sold alongside the photoperiod plants I am used to seeing. They look like mid grade or below. If that is what you are used to then I can understand how you think these things are great, however I'm used to smoking top-shelf flowers and extracts so...you can take that for what it is worth. I'm not saying that autoflowers have no purpose at all, I am just saying auto-flowers have no purpose in my garden or lungs, at least the ones you are showing here. Same with photoperiod plants such as big bud that are bred for production, not potency, cannabinoid profiles and terpenes, blah blah blah. Higher production usually means lower quality in cannabis. Maybe this will change with future breeding projects, but it is certainly not the case now from what I am seeing here. Time will tell. I guess I am just spoiled with top shelf products. What someone considers good cannabis is relative to what is in the market where they are located. We have top shelf here so...I smoke top shelf. I don't know what market you are in, but it sounds like it values production over quality and that is ok. I would smoke mid if I had to, but again we have top shelf here. If you want to see some good quality flowers, follow some folks on instagram like the jungle boys, nameless genetics, Subcool420, California seed bank....the list goes on and on.

GrowingHigher:

Maybe poly is cheap, but nothing is cheaper. The potential scale is different as well.

Cheaper does not equate to "better" or the percentage of yield from extracts. Indoor and greenhouse grows routinely produce better quality flowers and extracts than outdoor, at least in the market I am in. PERIOD. Again, I am not concerned with acres and acres of large scale production plants outdoor, especially for concentrates because the quality, and environmental control is simply not there in a field when compared to a greenhouse or indoor grow.

For the record, I have never grown an auto-flower and the pics you have posted here just makes my case as to why.

I did not take budshots and am bad at taking macros with my phone, my pics are not a good example really, it's just what I snapped quickly between working and have right now. I also can't show you a picture of the tactile experience in person. There are many plants that look beautiful in a picture but are bland and disappointing in person. I have a peals-on-string pheno of a weird sativa bagseed that is amazing. My good friend laughed at me when I showed it to him and said it took +100 days to flower. Then he came back saying it was among the best he has ever had. Bag appeal does not mean quality.

Some of the autos I have seen is very much comparable to top shelf Space Queen, Jelly Bean, Blueberry, wedding cake, cookies, blah blah. Many top shelf photoperiods you're talking about. There is high resin production on many. I do follow jungle boys. I would like to see them using that socal sun. What a waste. They have photogenic flowers for sure.

Even if you don't think they are there yet, there's no reason to think that ruderalis traits are linked to potency or terpene profile that I have seen. So long term, with breeding, they will still get there. Look at where they are now compared to the JointDoctor's Lowryder.

Ruderalis on its own IS lower potency and with low THC, however they do have more CBD when compared to some drug varieties of cannabis. In botany, a ruderal plant species is basically a weed. Ruderal plants have quick succession, meaning they’re the first to pop up in areas where the environment has been tampered with or is otherwise of poor quality. You know like a weed. That's where the name Ruderalis came from. It is a weed when compared to Indica and Sativa's that have been selected for drug properties. Unlike most indicas, sativas and hybrids, ruderalis has a low THC content. So low, in fact, that it is not used as recreational cannabis. The herb’s short stature is also not ideal for hemp production either. Can breeding and selection process change this? Sure. That's how we have high potency and medically active photoperiod short day plants now. The natural state of cannabis is hemp, and given time with no selection process over many generations high potency hybrids would revert to their natural state with low drug traits.Time will tell how much the selection process will change this. I'm not saying an autoflower could not potentially produce acceptable plants with the drug traits, terpene profile, and yield I am looking for. I am saying they don't now, given my experience with them

GrowingHigher:

There are many plants that look beautiful in a picture but are bland and disappointing in person.

I can agree with this. I can also say that most of the time, in my experience, bag appeal is related to potency with most of the flowers I am smoking. Only a bioassay can say for sure, and those are all relative to the individual. But yea, pretty weed can suck.

GrowingHigher:

there's no reason to think that ruderalis traits are linked to potency or terpene profile that I have seen. So long term, with breeding, they will still get there. Look at where they are now compared to the JointDoctor's Lowryder.

As of now the potency of an autoflower is coming from the genes belonging to the indica/Sativa/hybrid it is bred with, not the Ruderalis. If you breed, Ruderalis x Ruderalis you get Ruderalis "ditch weed". Were Indica's and Sativa's always always potent with drug traits? No, they were selected for over many many generations. Could Ruderalis x Ruderalis produce High drug trait plants, perhaps yes, but it's not the way it is done now. What breeders seem to be looking for now is an indica, sativa, hybrid drug traits that will autoflower like a ruderalis. If a ruderalis is recessive on all traits except for auto flowering and only passes on the the autoflowering trait/traits to it's progeny that would be great. Maybe some do now, but not to a large degree, given what I have seen. If a ruderalis passes on it's "drug traits" mainly CBD in low concentrations to the Sativa/Indica/hybrid that might not be such a good thing, well for me it wouldn't be. A lot of high CBD plants now are Indica, Sativa hybrids, not hemp or ruderalis. This is changing too from what I have seen in the hemp industry in the US with regards to high cbd low thc hemp varieties. I agree auto's have come a long way and I have no reason to think that they won't be selected for and refined for the future; and given the technology we have now with genetic testing and mapping it might be sooner rather than later. They are just not there...YET...for me.

GrowingHigher:

I do follow jungle boys. I would like to see them using that socal sun. What a waste.

I think they would disagree and have their reasons why. With the strict testing regimens we have here for both medical and recreational cannabis it is easier to get a clean, quality, saleable product, indoors and in greenhouses especially for extracts. I'm not saying it is impossible to have quality outdoor grows that will pass all testing, I am saying it is easier and more consistent indoors or in greenhouses for the purposes the Jungle Boys serve in the industry.

I am really enjoying this discussion and I hope the future of autoflowers in big and bright. They do serve a purpose within the industry, otherwise they would not be selected for.

Some of the autos I have seen is very much comparable to top shelf Space Queen, Jelly Bean, Blueberry, wedding cake, cookies, blah blah.

Even my babushka can tell the difference between an auto bud and a top-shelf space queen bud, and she has cataracts. ....and I'm curious, what does an auto-flower farmer do in the fall/winter months? Can't grow them indoors without 20 hours of light per day, and can't grow them under the natural 12/12 in the greenhouse.

I see a lot of people concerned about CBD production recently and I'm not sure that CBD is necessarily is what I'm concerned with in my bud, I can't get high on it and I don't break it down to oils granted it helps with anxiety but I'm pretty calm and generally not a paranoia type. Why is the CBD important? What is the point I am missing?

but anyway, Jungle Boys could do the same thing in a greenhouse. Do you know if/how CA tests for mold/bacteria? I haven't seen a reasonable testing protocol anywhere for molds/bacteria. In OR they used to do plate counts (for specific pathogenic species), but they have dropped that and switched just to moisture content test. As an agricultural product all Cannabis probably has microorganisms (mostly mutualistic symbionts) in and on it.

The only other "clean" concern would be from applied pesticides. If you are in an agricultural area, perhaps drift from nearby farms can contaminate your crop, but aside from that there is no reason you can't make the same clean product outdoors.

On a side note, for autoflowers I like to play a bit of Devils Advocate. I do think cultivation concerns generally will threaten monocultures of clones as farm density and interconnectedness make disease outbreaks the norm (they already are on the West Coast). People will be forced back to seeds (auto or photo) to help break disease cycles and have a variably resistant population of plants. None of the disease resistance work performed on traditional crops has been applied to Cannabis yet, except naturally as an unseen selective factor or perhaps on small scales by some breeders.

The Bureau of Marijuana Control on Friday released a plan aimed at making cannabis safer for patients, with rules for all medical marijuana legally sold in the state to be independently lab tested starting next year.

The testing regulations were the most challenging to develop, Lori Ajax, chief of the state’s marijuana bureau, said during a presentation Friday evening at UC Irvine.

Here are some key details in the proposed rules released Friday:

Labs will have to test for homogeneity; the presence or absence of various analytes, including cannabinoids, residual solvents, micro-organisms, pesticides, heavy metals, and mycotoxins; water activity and moisture content; and filth and foreign material.Labs can also test for terpenes.They must report in milligrams the concentration of THC, THCA, CBD, CBDA, CBG and CBN. Samples “pass” if they don’t vary from the stated THC or CBD levels by more than 15 percent.Labs must report whether samples have more than allowed amounts of pesticides such as acephate, residual solvents such as butane, impurities such as Salmonella, heavy metals such as arsenic, mold that averages 5 percent of the sample by weight and more.To get a full annual license, labs will need to be accredited by the International Organization for Standardization. But the state will offer 180-day provisional licenses to labs that meet all other qualifications while they work on their ISO accreditation.Lab techs have to wear safety goggles, hair nets and other sanitary gear plus use sanitized tools when collecting samples for testing.Labs have to collect 0.5 percent of the total cannabis batch for testing. Batches must be under 10 pounds.Labs have to maintain detailed plans for chain of custody for samples, employee training, storage and more. And they have to make those plans available to the bureau if asked.All of the draft medical marijuana regulations — which now total 257 pages — are open for public comment. This was on May 5th.

The only other "clean" concern would be from applied pesticides. If you are in an agricultural area, perhaps drift from nearby farms can contaminate your crop, but aside from that there is no reason you can't make the same clean product outdoors.

Yes, dust, normal ag debris is inevitable to some extent. Even in most greenhouses (except filtered, fully sealed ones) that is an issue. Though there are ways to limit this.

If contaminated soil is a concern, you can still use imported soil (as most people unfortunatly do regardless). Heavy metal and radiation concerns hold true for commercial nutrient products as well, so hydo isn't inherently safe in those respects. And there is no reason you can't do outdoor hydro.

The indoor or outdoor debate doesnt have to be synonymous with artificial lighting or sun. You can do greenhouse with natural, or mostly natural lighting, and get the same quality and environmental control as indoor.

It's that "should" part where the slippery slope lies. I'm not willing to trust the species to the better angels and proper ethics of commercial breeders - there's too much money to be made by acting badly. Every feminized breeder who creates a fem'd seed lot that doesn't herm "unless stressed too much" thinks he's dodged the bullet. He's only put one more nail in the coffin. Two, four, six generations down the road, the chickens will come home to roost. By that time, the original breeder will have made his money, and the new breeder won't even know he's working with once-feminized breeding stock. Until he knocks up his elite cut with another three-times fem'd cut, and then balls, balls, balls....Sinsemilla apocalypse.

We need a Hempocaust to purge the autoflowers and feminized freaks from the master landrace. We must embrace National Cannabism.