Emilia Clarke and Kit Harington on filming the end of Game of Thrones; Sophie Turner embraces Sansa's dark side | Watchers on the Wall | A Game of Thrones Community for Breaking News, Casting, and Commentary

A Game of Thrones Community for Breaking News, Casting, and Commentary

Emilia Clarke and Kit Harington on filming the end of Game of Thrones; Sophie Turner embraces Sansa’s dark side

With the days until the premiere of Game of Thrones season 7 ticking away, we have even more cast interviews brimming with behind-the-scenes moments!

As the end of Game of Thrones draws near, Emilia Clarke and Kit Harington reminisce filming in Belfast with the Belfast Telegraph. At Yahoo!, Sophie Turner reflects on Sansa’s new taste for vengeance and even compares her to Cersei Lannister.

The cast and crew of Game of Thrones have poured an enormous portion of their time and energy into producing the colossal fantasy epic. Over the years, a significant amount of said time was spent in Northern Ireland’s Belfast,becoming their home away from home.

Emilia Clarke (Daenerys Targaryen) tries to envision leaving Belfast at the end of Game of Thrones with the Belfast Telegraph.

It’s weird – we’ve spent about four years of our lives in Belfast. The thought of it ending is enormous and crazy and weird. I can’t even imagine the weirdness and tears when it ends, and the sadness – hopefully I’ll be sitting on the throne and that will make it all better.

Clarke is “optimistic” for Daenerys and after seeing the jaw-dropping season 7 images, it’s hard not to be.

As the end of such a monumental series becomes reality, Clarke shares what she’d like the series legacy to be.

I hope Game of Thrones is remembered for beautiful storytelling; that would be the biggest goal.

She relishes the newfound “women’s world” of Game of Thrones and her hopes for Daenerys over at the Belfast Telegraph!

Last season, one of the worst-kept secrets was the return of Kit Harington (Jon Snow) who was spotted in Belfast despite extra security measures. He celebrates the lack of such this season:

It really, really was a relief to be able to walk around Belfast and not have to make some excuse about what I’m doing here. I told my family and close friends only and had to hide when I was supposed to be dead – the social side of things here suffered a bit. There was no jet or helicopters to fly me in and out and we had to be careful, as there had been drone camera flying over the Battle of the Bastards, for a start.

Harington also feels the impending end of Game of Thrones and expresses what he’ll miss most.

It’s a huge thing and it’s been very close to my heart. I’ll miss the family and coming back here, and even this costume and the fight scenes. The costumes and weaponry are incredible. I said from the start that I wanted the Long Claw sword but as the (show’s) momentum’s grown, it’s become very expensive and will probably end up in a HBO museum. Hopefully they’ll make me a replica.

He shudders at being claustrophobic while filming the Battle of the Bastards and revels in what he’ll cherish about Jon over at the Belfast Telegraph!

Last season, we saw Sansa Stark give herself over to vengeance in a satisfying victory for both Sansa and the audience. With Yahoo!, Sophie Turner (Sansa Stark) admires her character’s growth and how she and Cersei share similar motives.

[Sansa has changed] from being a naive, vulnerable innocent young woman and being such an underdog… to being a leader, powerful and hungry for revenge from the people who have done her family wrong.

Oddly enough, the character who shaped her most in those naive, vulnerable years is the very same Turner parallels her own character with now.

They’re both so family-obsessed and family-oriented, and will do anything for the people they love. I can totally see her becoming a Cersei and kind of driven mad by it, by the threats against her family. At the end of the day, that’s why she does the things that she does, because she’s terrified of losing the people she loves. And so she’ll stop at nothing to protect them.

Maybe in another time they could’ve been a formidable link between the lion and the wolf?

Turner considers Sansa’s loyalties this season and jokes fending off the Grim Reaper with each new script over at Yahoo!

The reality of Game of Thrones end may be sinking in, but we still have one insane season on the horizon! What are your thoughts? Let us know below!

I disagree with Sophie’s comments. Reducing her character to a Cersei in the making or a Cersei wannabe is not the best approach to Sansa, I think. The show would get repetitive if it just replicated one character into many, and besides I don’t think ‘evil’ or ‘mad’ are what Sansa is all about at her core. I’m not going to stick my head under the guillotine and start comparing what Sansa’s had to endure to Cersei’s life, but for me the nature of their suffering and misfortune is completely different, as are their motivations.

From all of Sophie’s interviews where she says she wants Littlefinger on the Iron Throne or that she wishes Sansa died, I get the impression that the actress seeks after a darker/more tragic development for her character (perhaps to make Sansa more dramatic/badass, which is understandable, considering her first 3-4 seasons where Sansa was given very little control over her own fate) and that’s cool. But when the actress starts to let her personal preferences interfere with her interpretation of the character to the point where she fabricates stuff that isn’t really true (e.g. Sansa being a better and more experienced leader than Jon or something along those lines) it just… well, not that it puts me off of her performance, which I think has been great, it simply makes me doubt she understands Sansa very well.

Give Kit longclaw!!He deserves it after all these years busting his ass doing the action scenes.Everything Sophie says in interviews is just for the discourse™ lol.It’s contradictory in itself and only tangentially related to what happens in the show.

I thought WOTW will never make a post out of this interview given how its going to become eventually ..

I have always believed dany as 50/50 chance of surviving the series …but i
Have to say that the only positive thing for me from the season 7 leaks is given how the season going to end makes me hopeful that dany may eventually survive …

Although I don’t quite follow Turner’s views on Sansa, it will be interesting to see Sansa’s independent actions after having spent so many years in the company of socio/psychopaths. I expect her to acquire some sort of Stockholm Syndrome but I have no idea how it will play out on the screen and page. Compared to Cersei though?Vengeance? Maybe, but that would be odd…she may be a bit more unpredictable than that.

Actually, her arc makes me hope she does have another run-in with the Hound (please don’t label this a SanSan situation…it’s not). He was in a position to do her great harm but chose not to. In an odd way, both Stark sisters had their effect on him and he had a strengthening effect on them. Her reaction to him will be quite interesting.

At the end of the day, that’s why she does the things that she does, because she’s terrified of losing the people she loves. And so she’ll stop at nothing to protect them.

I don’t believe we’ve actually seen much indication of that. It’s very possible that they step up that facet of her this season but I’m a little skeptical that we’ll notice or even see it that way. I mean, who does she really love that she has been or will be terrified of losing. Last season she appeared more concerned about Ramsay winning than Jon or Rickon losing. Not to mention that she made it clear that beating Ramsay was as much or mostly for her by essentially implying that she’d kill herself if he wins. She heard Arya and Bran were seen alive but again her concern for them wasn’t shown as thoughts of them were put on the back burner and no steps were taken to find them.

Jon of course was in a similar situation, but Kit didn’t say those things about Jon. Jon also nearly got himself killed trying to rescue Rickon. We also know that he loves Arya and Bran, and we know he’s the type that will sacrifice himself to protect others. Sansa on the other hand is a bit less obvious with… well, pretty much anything besides her own situation.

Sophie Turner is a brilliant actress, but she seems very immature to me in terms of her reading of the story and characters. I don’t know if this true, but apparently she said in an interview a few months ago that Jon is incapable of ruling Winterfell properly and that Sansa would be better at it because she has more “experience”.

As we know, she also thinks it’s super cool that Sansa is going to “develop a taste for killing”, as she put it in a past interview, and that Sansa is a “boss-ass bitch”.
Emilia Clarke seems pretty silly as well, when she fawns over Dany.

A little disappointing that these actors don’t have more of an objective understanding of who their characters are. It would probably make their portrayal more interesting as well.

He’s probably gonna get the Throne by the end which is such an overplayed underdog storyline I’m literally seeing Aragorn 2.0.
Hopefully Dany has a child with him before she dies. Him being a father could actually make him interesting again. He just seems bored with playing Jon at this point.

Emilia’s enthusiasm breaks my heart, knowing her fate is pretty much sealed, I’m sure she’ll suffer a lot more than any other actor when her character dies simply because of how much she loves playing her. I wish Kit and the others would be as excited/invested in their roles.

Someone really should gift Kit Harington his sword. He has more than earnt it.

Clob: Not to mention that she made it clear that beating Ramsay was as much or mostly for her by essentially implying that she’d kill herself if he wins.

She did not want to be taken alive by Ramsay… That selfish girl ! 😛

Clob She heard Arya and Bran were seen alive but again her concern for them wasn’t shown as thoughts of them were put on the back burner and no steps were taken to find them.

I do not think the elder Stark children could possibly do anything to find Bran or Arya. They would not even know where to start looking.

Taking back Winterfell was the absolute best way to get their remaining relatives back, I believe.

One of the main problems the Starks have had over the years is that they did not know where the others were, which made it borderline impossible for them to reunite, even when they were incredibly close (cf. Arya at the gates of the Eyrie).
Having an official Stark HQ and holding onto it would operate as a beacon to the scattered Direwolves. I think that was the stated plan, wasn’t it ?

I would say that her main objective was retaking Winterfell, which in a broader sense would include: safety for her and her siblings, revenge, and as ACME pointed, making it a “beacon to the scattered Starks.”

I used to think she was just having a bit of fun trolling the fans, but I’m not so sure anymore since this is what she says all the time lol. It’s been a long time since I’ve seen or read a more “serious” interview from Sophie if that’s the case and it would be nice to have one once in a while, I think it would make me appreciate her trolling instead of just rolling my eyes at her comments lol

ACME: I do not think the elder Stark children could possibly do anything to find Bran or Arya. They would not even know where to start looking.

Possibly not. Probably not. Of course that didn’t stop Brienne from going out and miraculously running into them. So while they may not be able to find them, my point is that we haven’t seen much to support the idea that her siblings and finding them is very important to her. Like I mentioned, at the very beginning of this season they may have some conversations about doing that. To fit with Sophie’s vision the character should take on a maternal role and make it her primary focus and goal if she’s so worried about them. I won’t buy it if instead she continues to mope and be concerned about who is in charge of what.

“I sort of know where he is now. Next season will be next season, he might go through a big change, I don’t know. He’s dear to me. I’ve lived with him for so long. I think I’ve come into a place of feeling quite emotional about him, actually, knowing that I’m not going to get to go back to him after next year.”

“I’m really trying to just take stock of having lived this sort of dual life with this character, and being through so much with this character. It’s been a strange journey, but I’ll always be fond of it.”

Kit has spoken numerous times about how he likes Jon and how dear the character is to him. Some of these interviews have even been posted by this site. He’s also one of the few cast members who has read the books and isn’t afraid to speak about Jon’s flaws and mistakes alongside his qualities. His performance has also improved compared to earlier seasons and he puts in a lot of effort in his dramatic and action scenes. Just because he’s not excessively bubbly in every interview, that doesn’t mean he is bored or isn’t invested in his character.

Thankfully, there is no dearth of fans who think Jon is interesting enough in his own right that he does not need a child with the “great” Daenerys to make him interesting. All characters are cliche when you get into it, an exiled princess being one of the biggest cliches. It’s how their stories are told that matters.

Jenny,
I thought Sansa’s line in Book of the Stranger (“Winterfell is our home. It’s ours and Arya’s and Bran’s and Rickon’s. Wherever they are, it belongs to our family.”) was meant to indicate that the purpose of taking back Winterfell was to allow the Starks to reunite, but I may be wrong.

Then again, I also believe the director’s decision to have Sansa stare at Rickon’s corpse before she asked Jon where Ramsay was was intended to root her subsequent perverse pleasure at watching Bolton die in more than her own personal revenge but also in the punishment of Ramsay for the murder of her baby brother. But I may be wrong about that as well. Wouldn’t be the first time, far from it 😉

Yeah, just because Kit doesn’t overhype his character and turn a blind eye to his flaws doesn’t mean he has lost interest. He is the only one of the main actors to have read the books and understands that the story revolves around more than just his character.

The only thing they know about Bran is that he’s beyond the wall, so I’m not surprised they aren’t looking for him. They probably think he’s lost there forever. Imagine their surprise when they finally see him!! 😀

With Arya, I assume they think she’ll make her way back to Winterfell if she catches wind of the Stark victory. They probably think she’s in the Riverlands or near the Vale depending on what else Brienne told Sansa off screen.

Taking Winterfell was the only sensible option to bring the wolf pack back together 🙂

Well we all have our different interpretations.That’s the beauty of art it’s very subjective.I have never seen Sansa’s motivations as family obsessed or oriented and that would do anything for people she loves.Or that she would stop at nothing to protect them.I don’t think that has been a focus in her story but you and Sophie may have a different opinion of course.

You know, from my perspective reading comments all these years, there is a very small ratio of fans that can be categorized into the Jon OR Daenerys fan group only that despise the other. Perhaps there are some vocal people of the type but I don’t believe it’s a common thing to be a hater of either.

I think Sansa will be “younger Queen” in the show as well. I won’t spoil S7,

I agree with you and Ghosts Lunch.

(season 7 leaks)

From the moment I saw the leaks I wondered what characters who aren’t fighting such as Varys and Sansa will do in season 8. I’m pretty sure we’ll see Sansa vs Cersei and maybe even Arya vs Cersei. Varys could help with his network of spies if needed. Also, if the show sends Arya south in season 8, it gives them a chance tease us more and postpone the Arya/Jon reunion we want. Arya still has her list to complete too and I don’t think Walder is going to be her last big kill.

This is such a forced way to criticize Sansa. They wanted to retake their home, she said that their home belongs to all of her siblings. It was very clear from her scene with Brienne that she is very happy that Arya is alive.

This show has limited screen time for every character. I don’t remember that Jon spoke about his family at all in the last two seasons, but no one assumes that he doesn’t care.

But Sansa and Cat are the reincarnations of Hitler in some parts of this fandom, so it’s great to give them more flaws that they even have.

Jenny: The only thing she cared about last season was killing Ramsey with good reason I might add but it’s nothing at all like Sophie puts it in her interview.

That is far from true. Sansa cared about retaking Winterfell for her family. And she cared about doing it on her terms, not with Littlefinger’s help. After all, the story last year was about self-compromise for political purposes: she chose “earning it” over expediency. (And, of course, she learned the lesson: when you don’t feed the “dogs,” then they lose their loyalty to you, be they actual dogs or even less innately loyal animals like humans….. 🙂 )

Obviously, getting back at Ramsay was part of that: but only part of that.

And that idea that Sansa manipulated Jon to go to war is also far from true. She did say that Rickon is lost in E9, but maybe a better explanation, than manipulating Jon and pretending to care for Rickon in E4, is that she realised that Rickon is lost when she saw a direwolf head.

Arya is the main character whose final arc is such a mystery to me. It can go both ways with her. I can see her doing things both in the north and in the south (the WW can always make it south too). Can’t wait to see what she does.

Theon’s season 8 story seems to be focused on him rescuing Yara from Euron. Should be exciting. I’d like to see him reunite with Bran if they both make it.

The leaks weren’t clear about Tyrion’s location at the end of the season, but I agree with you. Like you, I’m also unsure about Sandor… his story fits both in the north and the south. He can fight WW, but he also has unfinished business with the Mountain…I want him to reunite with Arya too.

I don’t care. It also wasn’t forced at all as it was really rather easy. 🙂

While I wouldn’t hesitate to criticize Sansa normally, that’s not really what I was doing. I was really criticizing Sophie. It hasn’t been obvious that she’s truly done anything for her siblings. She may have made a couple of comments when she ‘includes’ their mention, but typically everything she’s concerned with has been all about her. That’s the way it comes off primarily and one has to dissect things and come up with ways to include the others in her desires and actions.

So yes, those comments sound like criticism of Sansa, but that’s just talking about the character. I’m criticizing Sophie for things she says about the character that she has been unable to convey very well.

As per usual whenever she comments on this story or series, I have no idea what Sophie Turner is talking about. So I’ve come to the conclusion it is best to just shrug your shoulders at Sophie Turner’s comments about this story and series. You’ll save yourself from a headache.

I would literally give everything for him to finish the series embarking on a tour of the Free Cities and the Summer Isles lol.My boy deserves it so much.

Didn’t Tyrion want to go to the Summer Isles? They can go together like on spring break or something

A tour of the Free Cities sounds perfect too for our boy. He can stay at Illyrio’s place in Pentos and save up some money on accommodation. Then he can go west to Norvos and Qohor. Or maybe he can go south to Myr.

Well, going by some of her comments, she’s somehow blacked out the entire Winterfell battlements scene in the season 6 finale (the one where Jon explicitly does that exact thing that she alleges Sansa is butthurt over him not doing) and created a few false memories of nonexistent scenes in which Sansa has actually ever led anyone. She always talks nonsense about her character and upcoming storyline in interviews, so that’s nothing new, but if she’s being serious here, I’m going to go with the third option where she could benefit from putting away the spliff until the interviewer hangs up.

Irina Stark,
I know that it’s always a “cliche” when someone other than one’s fave gets the most attention, but I’m not sure how you got it into your head that Emilia is the only actor who enjoys her role. There’s nothing in the above interview to indicate it, and going by performance, as lovely as Emilia seems as a person, she’s been hitting the same two notes as Dany since Season 3. Even some of Kit’s harshest critics have been able to admit that he’s gotten better and better every year, and the show’s directors and show runners repeatedly call him the hardest working actor they know. Do you think he’s the only cast member who’s keen to explore other opportunities once he wraps the final season?

Yup. The letter was his tipping point, just as it was in the books. Take Sansa out of that scene and it would have had the same outcome. Sansa Poole/Bolton only exists in D&D’s world, and having her twist Jon’s arm was nothing more than fan service after Season 5. Book Jon had an army ready to go within hours of receiving Ramsay’s letter, so I give his bizarro behavior last season (all for the sake of giving Sansa Poole her “win”) about as much weight as D&D give consistent character development in general.

Emilia has read the books as well and have spoken about her character misgivings and shortcomings in the past and quick to point out the mistakes the character did as well.
If you don’t like anyone talking bad about jon that’s fine but don’t go taking slight at other characters and actors just because you don’t like them

Anytime she is in trouble she just stares blankly and parts her lips. She only acted well when she was crying. But yeah, Sophie ruins it for me. I actually liked Sansa a bit in the books or at least didn’t have hateful feelings towards her.

Flayed Potatoes,
Well, they could send Brienne. As Clob pointed out, she does appear to have some sort of sonar that helps her find renegade Starks wherever she goes 😉

But, yes, short of using Brienne’s magical powers, retaking Winterfell was certainly the safest bet to bring the Starks back togther. And, as Dornish Tyrell, mau and Wimsey argued, it appeared to have been the plan for both elder Stark siblings, including Sansa.

Jenny,
Sansa’s relationship with her family has always been complicated, since she did not care for the Stark identity at all to start with and favoured feminine activities her father, brothers and sister had no inclination for or interest in.

Still, she has been shown to love and want to protect her relatives. When Ned was arrested, she was willing to beg for his life. Honour and pride be damned ! She was devastated by the Red Wedding. Finding out that her younger brothers were still alive seemed to drag her away from despair, in spite of the hell hole she was in at the time. News of Arya’s continued tomboyishness brought a smile to her face. Her hatred of the Umbers is rooted in Small Jon’s decision to sell Rickon to Ramsay.

I believe there are more signs pointing towards her caring for her family than the opposite. But again, it is just my opinion. ^^

mau,
That was also my interpretation for Sansa’s change of heart in regards to Rickon’s rescue. She simply realised that Ramsay would never let him survive.

Gina: I think I would care about Sansa and what she has been through way more if I didn’t hate Sophie Turner and her borderline horrendous acting…

I wasn’t going to say it…….. again. 😛 I’ve started to just state that “I’ve come to dislike Sansa more on the show than I did while reading the books.” I don’t hate Sophie though. I think she could be a fine person as everyone on the show seems to like her. I just don’t care for her acting.

Markus Stark: I don’t find her to be a bad actress, overall I think she’s very good (though she did make some odd acting choices in Season 6), but aside from that I agree with you.

There are some things she does adequate. In general conversations without a requirement for immense emotion she’s really improved and usually does just fine. Examples would be her fireside chat with Jon or her short talk with Brienne in the woods. In scenes when she’s required to stretch her acting with more expression and emotion is when I often really notice her performance, and not in a good way.

He’s probably gonna get the Throne by the end which is such an overplayed underdog storyline I’m literally seeing Aragorn 2.0.
Hopefully Dany has a child with him before she dies. Him being a father could actually make him interesting again. He just seems bored with playing Jon at this point.

Emilia’s enthusiasm breaks my heart, knowing her fate is pretty much sealed, I’m sure she’ll suffer a lot more than any other actor whenher character dies simply because of how much she loves playing her. I wish Kit and the others would be as excited/invested in their roles.

A Dornish Tyrell: Take out Sansa out of that scene… and that scene would have never existed… Why would Ramsay send the Pink Letter otherwise?

Because he has Rickon and Jon let the Wildlings past the Wall.

But really what I think elybe is saying is that Jon would have fought Ramsay with or without Sansa asking him to do it. He loves his brother and Ramsay just threatened Jon, the NW and the Wildlings under Jon’s protection. That’s enough incentive.

I wasn’t thinking of Emilia when I said that Kit isn’t blind to his character’s faults. I didn’t mean to insinuate that Emilia was. If you look at my first comment, I actually called Emilia lovely as always (I wasn’t aware that she had read the books though).

I don’t know which character or actor you think I was hating on. I do think Sophie’s statements almost always contradict what we see on screen (and I like Sansa as a character) and clearly I am not the only one who feels that way, based on the comments.

Gina,
In relation to your feeling towards the character, I would hope to call it mere “dislike”. Why bother have such intense emotions, especially unpleasant ones, for people who do not even exist ?

As for the actress, you do not technically have to hear of Sophie Turner. I hope no one is forcing you to read or watch her interviews, in a way reminiscent of A Clockwork Orange (if someone is, call the police !) Why not just ignore her and feel nothing towards her ? It seems like a much easier and more comfortable response to someone who, ultimately, has not done anything to you (unless she has killed your dog or something… In which case, ok, hate her away !)

I was only responding to where you said kit is the only main character to read the books and doesn’t think story is about only his character. It did sound like taking a dig at Sophie if not I apologize.
I can only give examples of Emilia because even I sometimes gets annoyed by Sophie’s comments but I blame the writers for writing sansa that way in the show and I believe Sophie just speaks on the basis of show scripts

I love Sophie, and I love Sansa. I love how Sophie drives fans mad hahaha

Anyway I think Sophie is super biased towards Sansa, understandably.

Sansa does love her family… and i am sure she would do anything for them. I don’t think it would be at the level of Cersei though. I mean… I DO think she wanted to take Winterfell back because it was her home, and because she loves her family. She made some mistakes when it came to her family (season 1) but she grew out of that, clearly. Her scene with Theon in S5EP08 was very strong (discussion about Bran and Rickon)… and she wanted to take back Winterfell because it is her family home… and because she wanted to save her brother. This is all because she loves her family, and she fought for her family. If it wasn’t for Sansa, Winterfell would still be the Bolton’s. For those who haven’t been in her situation, I am sure it is difficult for someone who was abused and assaulted to forget that resentment and want to take revenge. So there was nothing wrong with that

HOWEVER, when it comes to Jon, and the future situation with LF… well… LF is using FACTS to try to sway sansa away from Jon.. because he is a bastard and he is her half brother. I am sure if LF was trying to do that against, say, bran for example, it would not work.

I am not saying that’s right, and if she does turn on Jon I will cut her off, but just trying to argue both sides.

I agree with Clob that we really haven’t seen much evidence that love of family ranks high among Sansa’s motivations. Yes, her reunion with Jon was emotional, but that was sort of one happy moment after a long slog of misery. When she headed off to King’s Landing, she didn’t seem to care about whether she ever saw her kin again at all. It was all about pursuing her own romantic fantasies. Yes, she showed some upset over the deaths of Ned, Cat and Robb, but we don’t really see her going on about how she misses anyone. She doesn’t even come across as mildly curious about Arya or Bran’s whereabouts. How much that reflects the character’s motivations and how much the showrunners’ need to serve up the Cliff’s Notes version of the story is arguable, of course. But based on what we’ve witnessed onscreen, that purported clannishness seems more like Sophie’s headcanon backstory than actual character development.

If “Dark Sansa” has a role model, seems to me that it’s more persuasively Littlefinger than Cersei. She studied passive aggression at the feet of a master, and ought to optimize those skills. I don’t see her being able to order people around and have people killed on a hissy-fit whim like Cersei, somehow.

I can see why tribal sentiments would develop if those characters’ respective happiness or even survival were mutually exclusive (there can only be one !!) but it is not the case so… I just don’t get it.

Not even going to argue on a factual level, because we’ve been over all these points times and times again. It’s always the same childish Jon-fangirl-squad that feel the need to dominate these threads with their limited perspective. United in bias and hate. So incredibly tiring. And sad, because there was a time when I used to love coming to this site.

As a Nikolaj fan, I find this Dany/Jon/Sansa fan slapfight pretty amusing. All three characters could vanish and I’d be fine with it. All three actors could quit acting forever and I wouldn’t even notice.

ghost of winterfell: He is the only one of the main actors to have read the books and understands that the story revolves around more than just his character.

There are a lot of fans that do not realize this, though. The notion that “Jon alone is the Song of Ice and Fire” has a very vocal list of fans. The idea (insofar as I can make of it) is that Jon alone is the protagonist of the series, and that other characters are “red-herrings” or even (particularly in the case of Daenerys) future antagonists. Obviously, this notion leads a lot to be desired in terms of understanding basic literary concepts (e.g., it is just a lot too late to introduce new antagonists for Jon!), but that clearly is a not big consideration!

I’d like to add a little:
– Seeing the doll in her room in season 2
– When LF told her that he saw her mother, and her sister, and she show emotion when he told her Arya’s alive
– Season 5, she stated a few times that “this is my home” re: winterfell
– Season 5 – scene with Theon about her brothers
– Season 6 – emotional conversation about Arya with brienne

The same reason he sent it to him in the books, where getting his “bride back” was just an incidental. Jon was already on his radar in Season 4, when he identified him as a “potential threat” to reclaim the north and sent a new “recruit” up to the Wall under the assumption that Jon was harboring Bran and Rickon.

Nah, if she hadn’t shown up, he’d have gotten held up at Castle Black by some other plot device. Or the letter would have arrived sooner. D&D can do whatever they want to give their faves more to do, but that doesn’t change the fact that Jon was always going to arrive at the decision to fight Ramsay, which was motivated by his love for Arya in the books, not anything that Sansa or Jeyne Poole did. Jon spends all of ADWD/the first half of season 5 being tempted with taking back Winterfell, and that was always going to be his story.

Pretty much, but the thing is, Jon spends several episodes at the beginning of Season 5 fighting the temptation to take on the Boltons presented to him by Stannis, Davos, and Mel, which is in line with his inner conflict in the books (which culminates in the Pink Letter). When D&D created Sansa Poole and shoved her into Jon’s storyline on a vengeance quest, they essentially overwrote Jon’s motives in order to accommodate her presence, placing his characterization on the back-burner in the process and diverting the natural progression of the temptation he experienced in Season 5. Jon was always written to gather an army to take on Ramsay. How this came to pass in the show was distorted in order to give Sansa something to do. That’s why arguing that she was necessary for the plot to progress makes no sense. Her very presence in that plot was a contrivance, and the story was twisted in an unsuccessful attempt to justify it. They had already set up Jon taking back Winterfell in Season 5, with or without her.

ACME: I can see why tribal sentiments would develop if those characters’ respective happiness or even survival were mutually exclusive (there can only be one !!) but it is not the case so… I just don’t get it.

It is strange, but this happens with these sorts of fandoms. We saw this with the Harry Potter fandom. We saw this with the Lost fandom. We’ve seen it in smaller ways several times with the Doctor Who fandom. Hell, we saw this with the Star Wars fandom 40 years ago! The biggest problem is a very human one: people begin to conflate what they want to happen with what they expect will happen. This leads to major confirmation bias: “Daenerys didn’t stop Drogo from taking slaves, which proves that she’s really pro-slavery deep down, and therefore evil!!!!” Etc., etc. We should not want Jon to be Lyanna’s son; we should pick up the clues and expect Jon to be Lyanna’s son while at the same time being indifferent towards this save in respect to what this might mean for the upcoming story.

Instead, we will always have the “Dayneites” (to pick on a particular group that is now largely defunct) that will always insist that because what they wanted to happen didn’t happen, the books & TV show were poorly written.

Because, you know, Luke and Leia really were meant for each other and never meant to be brother and sister…..

jj,
Are you kidding? Jon getting the Throne would be the laziest King Arthur/Aragorn hidden-bastard-son story ever. He’s the absolute weakest link in the current assembly of characters. “The guy destined by the narrative imperative to rule.” Boo-ring.

Very true. All good points. I had forgotten Roose and Ramsay sent Locke (??) to kill Jon, Bran and Rickon. The story would have played out the same way had she been absent from his storyline. In retrospect, I wish Littlefinger had found Sansa over Brienne and she and Jon would have reunited after BotB. That way, the surprise Vale army would have made more sense maybe.

Just saying, these “fan wars” will continue so long as Sophie keeps giving interviews in the same vein lol. People are going to react to her statements. Especially in a post about these interviews, I don’t know what else were people going to discuss!

elybe: When D&D created Sansa Poole and shoved her into Jon’s storyline on a vengeance quest, they essentially overwrote Jon’s motives in order to accommodate her presence, placing his characterization on the back-burner in the process and diverting the natural progression of the temptation he experienced in Season 5.

Except, that is not what really happened. The Pink Letter is a declaration of war on the Night’s Watch. Ramsay promises to kill everyone there if Jon does not return Arya. However: 1) he doesn’t have Arya; 2) he is under zero obligation to return her if he did; and, 3) (and this is a big one that people overlook) Jon is sworn to defend the Wall. OK, yes: they had assumed that nobody from Westeros would be assailing the Wall; but it still will be under attack, and this happens to be a really bad time for the Watch to be exterminated.

Moreover, Ramsay is demanding things that actually conflict with the Realm’s arrangement with the Watch: he is demanding that Jon surrender Selyse, Shireen, etc. Doing that would be essentially declaring that the Lannisters are in the right in this war and that Stannis was nothing more than a usurper. (Of course, this also points out the folly of “neutrality”: because seated powers never consider rebellions to be legitimate politics, Jon is violating his vows to the Realm by being neutral towards an enemy of the realm….)

At any rate, this is not a “vengeance quest” for Jon. He has no idea where Arya is or even any hope to save her. He has, at most, a fool’s hope of actually defeating the Boltons. The only thing he can save by advancing out to meet Ramsay is the Watch. (And, of course, even that would not necessarily work: if Jon’s forces are defeated by the Boltons, then nothing will stop them from going to the Wall and killing everyone in their search for someone who is not there.)

ACME,
I don’t want Jon dead because someone else’s survival is contingent on that, I want him dead because he’s incredibly tropey. The most tropey among the current characters: “Hidden bastard son.” In narrative terms, this means that, as long as he’s in the story, he’s practically destined to eventually rule. I want to kill the trope to avoid said sad resolution.

And “exiled princess coming to get her father’s throne” isn’t tropey? lmfao oh please this is like the one trope that’s equal to Jon’s on the show.

If he survives (big IF), who is to say he actually wants to be king? Ya’ll should stop hating on him for titles he doesn’t even want. He’s not going to take the chair away from Queen 50 titles.

Magical child learning about magical things isn’t tropey? Tomboy child assassin? Pretty sure teen girl assassin is the latest trend in young adult novels now. Disgraced knight on a road to redemption? Noble knight travelling the country to protect the daughters of the woman she’s sworn to? Sneaky guy who screws everyone over and is destined to be overcome by his naive apprentice? Sadistic evil guys? Evil queen who now only wears black like a sith lord or the evil stepmom in the Snow White cartoon?

Flayed Potatoes,
Ok, name one story about a warrior princess returning home at the head of an army – preferably older than 50 years. I gave you Arthur and Aragorn for the “hidden son”/”bastard” trope. I’ll add Siegfried/Siegurd.

That’s reaching, to say the least. Jon’s the POV at the heart of this plot and fighting Ramsay is blatantly his story. You forget that Jon was the very reason that Theon and Jeyne escaped in the books to begin with. Who sent Mance and his wildling crew to get “Arya” back? Who gave Stannis all the tactical information he needed to take Deepwood Motte and recruit the mountain clans to take Winterfell back? That letter was a culmination of all of book Jon’s actions over the course of ADWD. D&D’s decision to minimize Jon’s influence over his own storyline in the show doesn’t change that. You just get the same destination with a somewhat nonsensical journey.

I don’t see how any of these perceptions of the particulars surrounding the conflict change the fact that the Pink Letter and Jon taking back Winterfell were all givens that were set up well in advance? I’ve already outlined how Jon’s underhanded shit-stirring throughout the book accounts for the bulk of the contents of that letter anyway. It was still Jon who chose to take a stand at the end of ADWD, no convincing needed. And at no point did I say that this was a vengeance quest for Jon.

I don’t care if Kit happens not to be all gushy about Jon. You know how I know he loves Jon? He puts in all the effort at playing Jon, the way Jon is supposed to be portrayed. I also appreciate that he is insightful enough to notice Jon’s flaws, despite still wanting the best ending his character could have. It does irk me that fans can say any actor in this cast is lacking enthusiasm or effort. Just because Peter or Kit are not rays of sunshine always gushing about their characters doesn’t mean they care any less.

I wouldn’t be surprised if something like that happens in TWOW. Sansa’s last chapter in AFFC sets her up as eventually being Winterfell-bound with the Vale army. I can see Jon’s army getting overpowered by Ramsay’s forces with the emergence of the Vale cavalry marking the beginning of his reunion with Sansa. Followed by understandable tension over who should rule once Robb’s will comes into play, no inexplicable tactical secrets, and Sansa wouldn’t be trusting the man who sold her to the Boltons over the half-brother who took her in and was putting his life on the line again shortly after being brutally murdered. This is why “we wanted this to happen so we wrote it in” isn’t sufficient justification for making unworkable substantive changes to the narrative, lol.

I think “the absolute weakest link in the current assembly of characters” is actually Sansa. I don’t know what the point of her character is at this stage. She doesn’t actually have a claim on Winterfell even if they strip it away from Jon since Bran (and at least for now in the books Rickon) is alive (though I do think there stands a decent chance she may wind up with it in the end anyway). I thought she might have controlled the Vale army longterm, but then they had Yohn Royce and other representatives of the Vale stand for Jon in 610. Will she play a role in Cersei’s downfall? Maybe, but Arya has been built from almost the beginning of the story to have some role in that too. I don’t think Sansa will be fighting any White Walkers anytime soon.

To be honest with you, I really don’t see how she will ever have as big an impact as she did in season 6 for the rest of the story. They made season 6 her big time moment. I just can’t see anything else happening in the final 13 episodes that would match the magnitude of season 6 for this character. Unless she becomes queen and sits the throne of course. That would pass it. But I don’t think that is going to happen.

Yeah, just because Kit doesn’t overhype his character and turn a blind eye to his flaws doesn’t mean he has lost interest. He is the only one of the main actors to have read the books and understands that the story revolves around more than just his character.

Interesting. I didn’t realize he was “the only one of the main actors”; it certainly would inform his performance, wouldn’t it?

I don’t think Sansa, on the show, will actually trust LF over Jon, even though they might tease the possibility a bit in the next season (if they do, it will be super irritating) .
Incidentally, I wonder if Sophie has been told to play up this rivalry in her interviews.

He isnt the only one..
Emilia Clarke and John bradley Alfie Allen have read the books ..
Ian McElhinney and Pedro Pascal ( tyrion chapters from ASOS) have read the books ..
Sophie I believe read only sansa chapters and Ellie Kendrick has read too..

Complaining about tropes has also become a trope. If only people would complain in a more unpredictable way or perhaps throw in some shocking twists with their complaining about tropes then it would be so much more interesting for the reader

Flayed Potatoes,
Your initial argument was “And “exiled princess coming to get her father’s throne” isn’t tropey? lmfao oh please this is like the one trope that’s equal to Jon’s on the show.”

Now, you mentioned two examples – plus linked a list of “warrior women”, which I’ll forgo, because it seems to be mainly a list of real, living women. A trope, by definition, has to do with characters in a tale. So, let’s concentrate on these two.

Consider: What is the penetration of these stories in the general culture? For Cordelia, Lear is actually a story focused on her *father*. Wikipedia lists no movie and no book concentrated on *her* alone. Neither does it for Gwendolen. Compare to Arthur – a whole list of pre-modern epics, and then books and movies and retellings. Compare to the number of adaptations of the Song of the Nibelungs, even.

So, how is that in the least bit an ‘equal’ trope? Ask a random person on the street if they know Arthur, they will say, ‘of course, he’s that guy from the Guy Ritchie movie, isn’t he’? Ask if they know Cordelia, oops. If they are old enough, they may say she’s a character from Buffy.

Dany’s story is not that original. Tweak and twist things as you’d like, but it’s filled with tropes just like Jon’s is (and just like other characters). Starting from her arranged marriage turned to love trope (though for the record I find Dany/Drogo to be disturbing, many see it as romantic). Not to mention the “mighty whitey” trope that has drawn so much criticism. GRRM isn’t inventing the wheel here. The main twist in her “exiled princess” trope you can argue is her gender, but she’s tropey.

Almost every character in every story ever written can be labeled as some kind of trope. People have been telling stories for thousands of years (if not more). Just about every type of character and character deviation has been done before.

It’s like saying a chord progression of G to C to D to A to E is too much of a trope so I’m going to hate on the song simply because those chords have been played before. Well, guess what? Pretty much every chord and every chord progression has been done. It’s all about how you do it and what personal touch you add to it. That’s what’s important. If you add a personal touch then no one should really notice or care that the same chords have been played before.

I was responding to the assertion that Kit was the only one of the main actors to have read the books. By main, I assume most people think of the Big 5. I could be mistaken, but I certainly don’t want to start a fight; heaven knows there are already enough of them on this thread…

Almost every character in every story ever written can be labeled as some kind of trope. People have been telling stories for thousands of years (if not more). Just about every type of character and character deviation has been done before.

I should probably leave semantics to Wimsey, but I don’t think you all are discussing “tropes,” which refer to storytelling, as much as you’re discussing “archetypes,” which refer to characters.

Having said that… This might sound simplistic, but archetypes exist for the same reason clichés do: There’s an enormous element of truth to them. Human nature has never fundamentally changed, so why should the characters in our stories (both fiction and nonfiction) have fundamentally changed? “Every type of character and character deviation has been done before” because, well, we haven’t fundamentally changed. Our technology keeps getting better, but alas, we don’t. Call me a cynic, but the chief reason we live in a world that’s more “peaceful,” statistically speaking, than ever before in human history is because our capacity for complete self-annihilation has tempered the total warfare we engaged in on a regular basis for millennia.

P.S.: If Brienne of Tarth isn’t the greatest Amazon ever put on screen, I don’t know who is.

Well Emilia and sophie counts as big 5 or 6 right ..
It used to be Emilia and john Bradley who made most sense and shown knowledge and understanding of the characters ..but since the last couple of years the face of show has changed to Jon ..its kit turn now

Wimsey,
That may very well be it, you are right. Having little experience of fandoms (this is my first), I still find it both immensely curious and strangely funny.
I can absolutely understand (dis)liking a character; I also have no problem with favouring a character over another. Examining, criticising, critiquing a character, I get. All of that, I do it too !

What puzzles and fascinates me is really the exclusive nature of it, as if it were a zero-sum game and every quality/flaw attributed to one character were taken away from another. If X is said to be smart, then it is meant to imply that Y isn’t; if W is described as brave, then it is meant to signify that Z isn’t.

And, in this instance, we are talking about characters that are not, in-universe, in conflict (yet). What will happen if/when they are ? After all, two characters can be in conflict or have mutually exclusive interests without either one of them being wrong or turning into an insta- villain : Davos and Stannis illustrated that perfectly during their Gendry-related debate.

Jenny: Even more infantile are people participating in them while thinking they are above it all lol.

I do not believe I have ever participated insofar as participating means taking away or ignoring a character’s established deeds / qualities / flaws. But maybe I have and I forgot (feel free to point out any example to jog my failing memory). In which case,I do not only have Alzheimer’s, I am also a hypocrite ! I have been called worse 😛

Archetypes are cognitive shortcuts; they allow us to communicate and transmit meaning, emotions, knowledge in an “economical” way. A writer’s talent is, I believe, not to stay away from those archetypes (I doubt it is even feasible) but to integrate them into a complex and rich enough story that they reveal new and intersting aspects of themselves.

Archetypes are the ingredients; the story is the recipe. There are quite a few different dishes one can make with potatoes, meat, garlic, oil and herbs. ^^

I remember when D&D made a comment about that e-mail without mentioning the author. Many people in this fandom thought it was Finn Jones the “culprit” (due to him being a young inexperienced actor known for his passion for GoT.)

The moral of the story is, even if one is a seasoned professional, one might still have some cringeworthy moments… 🙂
(And I couldn’t possibly be the one to cast the Biblical first stone.) 😀

A Dornish Tyrell,
How very true ! On this one, my Judeo-Christian stones shall remain firmly in my pockets as well 😀
Benioff and Weiss really could have refrained from telling the story… It was not very charitable on their part !

Wolfish,
I clicked on “epileptic trees” (because WTF ?) and I’m lovin’ it, lovin’ it, lovin’ it ! Thank you so much for the find.

Wolfish:
I just found something that will keep me occupied… All. Night. Long. No, not old Scott’s Porage Oats commercials. Behold The Periodic Table of Storytelling. Tropes and archetypes and chemistry, oh my!

Bookmarking this for future exploration. Looks delicious. Thank you for sharing!

By the way, another fun way for fantasy fans to pass the time is to read Diana Wynne Jones’ hilariously deadpan The Tough Guide to Fantasyland, which lacerates fantasy-lit tropes in the disguise of a travel guidebook. It had me howling with laughter. Highly, highly recommended.

Also potentially useful to know such tips as: If you enter the Rocky Defile, you will definitely be ambushed by bandits.

His definitely not lol Emilia if you watched the S1 commentary first stated she was reading the books then, she was keeping pace with the books and the script not wanting to spoil herself until the books ran out, now she’s read the books multiple times. Peter also talked about reading the books he got pretty far in it but had to stop because he got lost with there being too many characters, Sophie only her chapters. Liam has read it now and is quite knowledgeable in it even discussing the story with George. Obviously Alfie, John, Gwen, Aidan, Ellie. Ones who died Ian, Rose and Richard, Finn, Pedro
Kit actually had only read four before his character died on the show, he might have read them all now but I don’t know for sure.
The ones who said they didn’t read it and won’t right now for acting reasons are Nickolaj, Lena, Maisie and Charles Dance.

Huh, her poses frequently are more like a portrait pose (or an old camera pose, when it took almost as long as painting). Trying to get the emotions behind expressions in stills is a dangerous proposition: expressions are sequences, not stills, and different sequences use the same stills at different points. However, the constant “portrait pose” does suggest that Turner is constantly trying to maintain expressionlessness.

Wolfish: I should probably leave semantics to Wimsey, but I don’t think you all are discussing “tropes,” which refer to storytelling, as much as you’re discussing “archetypes,” which refer to characters.

I claim no monopoly on semantic or pedantics! 😀 And you are, of course, absolutely correct. Here is a good distinction: the “Damsel in distress” trope uses the “helpless damsel” archetype. Having the damsel be the “hero” both subverts the trope and defies the archetype. (And that is why 13-year old me will always love Carrie Fisher….. 🙁 )

ACME:What puzzles and fascinates me is really the exclusive nature of it, as if it were a zero-sum game and every quality/flaw attributed to one character were taken away from another. If X is said to be smart, then it is meant to imply that Y isn’t; if W is described as brave, then it is meant to signify that Z isn’t

Yeah, that is another classic aspect of fandoms. Every line that Film!Ron and Film!Hermione traded in the films relative to Book!Hermione and Book!Ron “diminished” the other. (Not really: both are foils for Harry, and there were a lot of situations where it did not matter which of Harry’s two BF’s prompt him.) Every independent action by the Doctor’s companions diminishes the Doctor. (Not really: collaborating with a smart partner actually makes a person look better than blindly saving a damsel-in-distress.) Film!Aragorn not confidently asserting from the start that he was the right and true King of Gondor & Arnor diminished him. (Not really: modern audiences tend to think that people who rise to leadership despite their own misgivings are much better leaders than those who “know” that they are ordained for it: Book!Aragorn would have had audiences rooting against him! [Oh, and the books didn’t bother to tell us that Aragorn was in line for the Kingship until the middle of Return of the King, anyway!])

Such is the way of it with fandoms. It is a real lose here, too: GRRM and B&W have deliberately evolved Jon & Daenerys in parallel, so insisting that any plus of one somehow is a minus for the other is missing the story….

If it’s confusing why a person would not like a character, don’t forget or disregard the possibility that the character may be disliked partially or even mainly due to the actor/actress. While it’s not always the case, it is possible that it has little to do with the actions taken or the words spoken by the character that causes the dislike. I’ve despised characters in shows many times because they do awful things, but I love the actor’s performance and desire more. Charles Dance is probably a pretty good example for GoT. On the other hand, if the actor does a poor job or just simply bad enough to break immersion with the manner of line delivery or by not being emotionally believable, that can really affect the view of that character for some people. I usually call it “wonky acting” as opposed to bad acting. I reserve the bad acting term for crappy sub-B movies. In some cases I’m certain the viewpoint of the same character would be completely different simply by inserting a different actor.

Game of Thrones is a show that I’ve watched every episode many, many times. I think as a whole they’ve done a wonderful job limiting the “wonk.” There are just two cast members that do it routinely from my perspective, and on every single one of my subsequent viewings those things stand out. I end up replaying the scene in my mind saying the lines how they should have been said, with proper pauses, inflection, emotion, etc. I never feel the need to do that if the performance isn’t wonky.

I think Sansa will be “younger Queen” in the show as well. I won’t spoil S7,

Gods know I’m a Stark loyalist, but I don’t want to see either of those bitches as queen, especially Sansa. Come to it, it’s because I’m a Stark loyalist that I feel that way. Oh, she wouldn’t blow up the Sept probably, but like Cersei, her family is there to be of use to her. As they’ve always been. (Cersei at least loved her kids.) Sansa despised Arya when she was there. “You’re spoiling everything. Everything!” Sansa whined as Joffrey was threatening to gut Arya with his sword. Absent, in S6 Sansa seemed pleased Arya still dressed like a boy. “. After Ned was dead, Sansa loved his doll. “Oh, mother, please please please let me marry the Prince. It’s the only thing I ever wanted.” Only after Robb and Catelyn were killed did she she stop enjoying aristocratic society of Kings Landing. Her being a naive girl of 13 is no excuse–none of the Stark children would have behaved like that. It was and is her nature. Under the tutelage of Cersei and especially Littlefinger, she has now learned how to perfect that sort of snobbishness and power grab, which came to her naturally. And now, says Sophie, power is about to go to her head? Quelle surprise!

If she’s a true Stark, instead of climbing the ladder to the IT (which I think she will try), she’d stay home with her family and let someone else run Winterfell and the North while she embroiders Direwolves to her heart’s content. Can you imagine how she’ll react if Bran comes home and says, “I’m the boy and I’m Lord now”. She might murder him if he wouldn’t see it coming…or just take it badly. I don’t think she’s ever loved her family, except in the abstract. The minute they’re gone she loved them mightily. She plays being loving or in love, but her heart doesn’t seem to be in it. She’s certainly finding Jon inconvenient and will probably find Bran and Arya inconvenient too, especially if they disagree with her. But she’ll elicit their help to do whatever, probably get Littlefinger out of her way for good and all. With the Ladder firmly planted in Winterfell and assuming Jon, Bran, Arya, Brienne, et al win the Great War, the Climb will be available.

Is Sansa conscious of all this? Definitely maybe. Ask Sophie. Neither seems to understand the underlying psychology. None of us does, probably. One devoted Sansa fan online is utterly frustrated at how D&D have distorted her, and how Sophie muddles her worse and worse with each interview. Lately, this fan talks more about book Sansa and directs equally positive attention to Arya, Meera and others. If Sansa doesn’t understand herself, how can Sophie, who in addition is a notorious troll? When the Waif asked Arya how she did and didn’t hate Sandor. Arya admitted, “A Girl was confused.” Sansa, Sophie, and we are all confused.

Stark Raven' Rad: One devoted Sansa fan online is utterly frustrated at how D&D have distorted her, and how Sophie muddles her worse and worse with each interview.

Chances are reasonably good that the devoted fan has no clue about Sansa: my experience has been that the “devoted fans” mix 9 parts imagination with 1 part book/show in their own development of the character.

The only thing I can think of for the discrepancy in her wording is the fact maybe sshe ends up seeing Jon as NOT part of her family, or at least, not a real Stark sibling since the blood isn’t from her father Ned. I dunno just a wild and probably wrong guess as I don’t believe anyone finds out about his parentage until towards end of season or so it seems like.

She totes trolls the fandom. That answer to “the look” question is practically verbatim in every interview. I get that they all can only answer certain things in a limited capacity, but verbatim equals memorized. Which says to me “I can’t slip and give something away.” What tickles me more is no one ever asks the obvious follow up question: “Then why did Sansa turn down Winterfell and give it to Jon?”

Some interesting discussion in here. I have said multiple times I am not a fan of either Sansa or Dany, but Emilia always comes across well in her interviews. I am a big Jon Snow fan but Kit always strikes me as quite private and introvert, off screen.

And all apparently because they wanted to give the character more agency/value than she is meant to have at this point because they like Sophie Turner. Shouldn’t good writing and narrative flow be more important in their minds?

The only thing I can think of for the discrepancy in her wording is the fact maybe sshe ends up seeing Jon as NOT part of her family, or at least, not a real Stark sibling since the blood isn’t from her father Ned. I dunno just a wild and probably wrong guess as I don’t believe anyone finds out about his parentage until towards end of season or so it seems like.

I don’t think so, in the finale Sansa literally told Jon that he was a real Stark to her and also offered him the lord’s chambers in Winterfell, her parents’ bedroom, when she did not have to. I don’t think it can be disputed that Sansa loves her family. But, at the same time, her first instinct has always been self preservation, right from the beginning. Of course after the horrors she has seen, she is justified in her priorities.

Does she love her family? Yes. Would she go to any lengths to protect them (as Sophie says in this interview), would she put her own life at risk to do it? I am not so sure. Nothing seen on the show so far points to this (unless I am forgetting something). Jon and Arya would, but not necessarily Sansa. This is also the reason why I disagree with Sophie’s statement that there is nothing she wouldn’t do for her family, that she would go to any length to protect them. That doesn’t mean that she doesn’t love her family though, there are different degrees of love.

Regarding Jon, she loves him as a brother, but at the same time, she was willing to risk his life to ensure Ramsay’s defeat ( based on the fact that she did not tell him about the Vale army beforehand). So I would say she does love him, but self preservation trumps love in her case.

Look at her quotes of what Samsa would become in prior seasons, and then what happened in those seasons.

For instance she talked about how Sansa would play the game and be empowered in the same season she got dumped by Littlefinger to the Boltons to be raped.

Maybe you’re right and she’s being told the wrong information. Perhaps the problem is they saw where GRRM is taking Sansa as she learns to play the game in the Vale but botched it on the show by sending her to be a victim yet again.

I guess it is only going to become more prevalent, with the universe contracting and more and more “big” characters crossing paths, working together… or against one another. We got a glimpse of that when Tyrion and Daenerys (two main protagonists) joined forces. Who gets credit for what ? Who is the “main attraction” ? Who is the sidekick ?
Quite intelligently, the writers separated them almost immediately after their initial encounter and gave them two very distinct storylines so they could both shine, each in her or his own right. However, now, the real celebrity death matches are going to begin…

ACME: We got a glimpse of that when Tyrion and Daenerys (two main protagonists) joined forces. Who gets credit for what ? Who is the “main attraction” ? Who is the sidekick ?

heh, interestingly, in those scenes, Daenerys plays the same role for Tyrion that Drogon later plays for her, Melisandre & Davos play for Jon, Theon plays for Sansa and Jaquen plays for Arya in the same seasons or in the resolutions of those seasons: the cultivated “friend” (in quotes because of Drogon) who picks up the protagonist after they have fallen flat on their faces over-reach for in trying to let man/woman be born!

At the same time, we see Daenerys doing what Jon does with the Wildlings: making peace with a “traditional” enemy. (I am not sure how else to put it: 15 years does not a tradition make, but Daenerys was raised to hate the Lannisters no differently than all northern children are raised to hate Wildlings; so, from her point of view, it was Hatfield & McCoy.) So, Tyrion is taking the same role that Tormund does for Jon during Jon’s & Daeny’s more successful aspects of letting the man/woman be born.

We saw more of this last year, too, with Daeny & Tyrion being simultaneously foil and protagonist, and we saw a little of it with Jon & Sansa, too.

We almost have to see a lot more of that this year, I am sure: Protagonist A being Foil 1 for Protagonist B while B is Foil 2 for A. With the coalescing of the plotlines, this will almost have to be the case.

Completely naked, I think. Oh, wait, sorry: I read that completely out of context.

Seriously, you are correct: it does not mean anything. This is not Lord of the Rings: it is not as if “the blood of the first men runs true” in some people and not in others. Sansa is much more Catelyn’s daughter than Ned’s daughter, and therefore better reflects the Tully values. One thing that both book and show establish pretty well is that Ned seems to have been closer to Arya than to Sansa: just as Ned missed the fact that Sansa had stopped playing with dolls years ago, Sansa surely missed quite a few things about Ned. (Of course, missing things was Sansa’s forte…..)

WallyFrench: For instance she talked about how Sansa would play the game and be empowered in the same season she got dumped by Littlefinger to the Boltons to be raped.

Actually, what Turner had said was that Sansa is going to start trying to play the game, which is becoming empowered. The disaster that came afterwards did not change that. Basically, Sansa went from chess piece to chess player: and that was the empowerment; the poorest chess player is vastly more empowered than the queen of any chess set.

Now, it would have been nice if LF had found her an opponent who played by the usual chess rules (or even any rules): but that’s another issue altogether!

Sansa didn’t actually do anything to show progress at playing the game in Season 5. And she said the same things about Season 3 and Season 6 (though in the case of Season 6, that’s more the case that the show completely failed to write Sansa as a player, even though that was the intent, it seems).

Was she very emotional in the scene with Brienne? I thought it seemed down played. Haven’t seen it in so long though 🙂

Agreed. If it had been my formerly-presumed-dead sister, I wouldn’t have been satisfied with Brienne’s sole comment that she wasn’t dressed like a lady. I would have been excitedly besieging her right then and there with questions about where she was found, more info about the “man” she was with, etc. etc. [And I still don’t know why Brienne didn’t tell Sansa it was The Hound].

If it had been my formerly-presumed-dead sister, I wouldn’t have been satisfied with Brienne’s sole comment that she wasn’t dressed like a lady. I would have been excitedly besieging her right then and there with questions about where she was found, more info about the “man” she was with, etc. etc. [And I still don’t know why Brienne didn’t tell Sansa it was The Hound].

As I’ve noted in other threads, this has always confounded me as well. I would have wanted to have known every little detail of their encounter. As for the Hound, the only thing I can think of is that D&D wanted to set up a big reveal later on. Given how direct a person Brienne is, though, it makes no sense; no way in hell would she have said only, “She was with a man.” And isn’t it oddly convenient that Pod was off gathering wood or whatever during that conversation? And that we haven’t seen the three of them together ever since? I just can’t imagine that a would-be squire wouldn’t be totally stoked about his “knight” defeating one of the most feared men in Westeros in single combat, and said fact not being dropped in passing conversation at some point.

But don’t get me going on lapses of logic in D&D’s writing. I do, overall, love the show, and prefer to focus on its positive aspects.

We pretty much never see the Starks talking about each other when it’s not directly plot-related, so the mere fact that D&D included the scene with Sansa learning about Arya is meant to show her happiness at the idea of her being alive.

Logically, yes, you’d think that there’d have been more to that scene (though admittedly we don’t hear how the conversation started, so it’s possible that Brienne already covered the where and when before that point), but that’s the writers wanting to move on to all the other stuff they have to do in that two-minute scene.

On an objective level, it indeed means absolutely nothing, I agree wholeheartedly. On a subjective one, conversely… Most characters themselves believe it means something and many readers and viewers are in agreement with them. And I think this belief has to be taken into account.

What does it mean to be a “true Stark” ? From what I have read here and on a couple of other sites, the two most popular definitions among fans who favour the Direwolves are a) a “true Stark” is honourable at all costs; and b) a “true Stark” values his/her “pack” above anything else. Leaving aside the fact that the two definitions are, to a degree, mutually exclusive, if we try to apply them to the Starks we know, the results are interesting, to say the least.

If being a “true Stark” means being honourable at all costs :
– Rickard was not a “true Stark” because he told Ned “if you have to fight, win”, seemingly not caring whether the “win” was honourable or not;
– Lyanna was not a “true Stark” because she snuck away with Rhaegar without warning her relatives, leaving them to believe she had been abducted and raped;
– Ned was not a “true Stark” because he lied to everyone for twenty years;
– Robb was not a “true Stark” because he did not keep his promise to the Freys;
– Jon is not a “true Stark” because he broke his vows to the Night’s Watch;
– Sansa is not a “true Stark” because she lied at the Eyrie;
– Arya is not a “true Stark” because she killed the Freys in a “dishonourable” fashion.

If being a “true Stark” means valuing one’s family above all else :
– Lyanna was not a “true Stark” because she abandoned her family without a word and let her father and brother be massacred without intervening;
– Ned was not a “true Stark” because he chose his honour as a soldier over his daughters’ safety until Varys’s guilt-tripped him into changing his mind;
– Robb was not a “true Stark” because he allowed his sister(s) to be abused in King’s Landing so he would not lose ValuableHostage!Jaime;
– Jon is not a “true Stark” because he abandoned his family to join another (the Night’s Watch);
– Sansa is not a “true Stark” because she hated her sister and ratted out Ned;
– Arya is not a “true Stark” because she hated her sister and left her alone in the Red Keep;
– Bran is not a “true Stark” because he chose his destiny over a reunion with Jon.

By both those definitions, Catelyn (née Tully) and Rickon are the only two “true Starks”, the latter putatively so since we know virtually nothing about his personality. Surely, that cannot be right !

The fan-devised definitions may not be accurate but there is another, in-universe, clue as to what “(true) Starks” are or, at least, (will) aspire to be.

Houses have “words”, mottoes they revendicate as theirs. Now, whether said mottoes are descriptive or prescriptive is open for debate (could be nothing more than self-fulfilling prophecies…) but, overall, they provide us with a fairly decent snapshot into each family’s core mentality and revendicated value system, the way its members view themselves and wish to be viewed by others (including the readers / viewers).

The Lannisters’ “Hear Me Roar” highlights their desire to be both admired and feared; it also suggests that Lannisters are, at their core, individualists (hear me roar, not hear us roar).
Conversely, the Tullys’ “Family, Duty, Honour” emphasises the collective dimension of their entreprise, the way in which the individual is expected, if need be, to sacrifice his/her singularity for the greater good of the group; they are team players.
The Targaryens’ “Fire and Blood” is a downright threat; it serves as a reminder of the family’s magical ability to control the single most potent weapon known to mankind and the House’s ruthlessness when it comes to eliminating their opponents.

The Starks’ “Winter is Coming” emphasises… Their desire to become meteorologists ? 😛

More seriously, the Starks’ words stand out for they do not even refer to the family itself; when winter comes, it comes for everyone, not just for the Direwolves. It is neither a revendication, nor an imperative, nor a threat. It is both a statement of fact and a warning. It speaks of pragmatism, not idealism. Of survival, not principles. The (true ?) Starks who came up with it chose to remind themselves (and others) that “winter is coming” so that they could prepare for it in order to survive it. No matter what it took.

“Winter is coming” is basically George RR Martin’s evocative way to say “sh*t happens, deal with it”, I believe. And it is perfectly reflected in Rickard’s instruction to Ned : “if you have to fight, win”.

Narratively speaking, the remaining Starks are, I think, on a path to reinventing their family’s identity by reconnecting with their ancestors’ practicality, away from the official teachings of Ned, whose value system was forged at the Eyrie by the Arryns (“As High as Honour”).

Logically, yes, you’d think that there’d have been more to that scene (though admittedly we don’t hear how the conversation started, so it’s possible that Brienne already covered the where and when before that point), but that’s the writers wanting to move on to all the other stuff they have to do in that two-minute scene.

Uuuggghhh, no. As I remarked in my original comment about this, I prefer to focus on the positive aspects of the show, but in this case I just see it as bad writing and/or bad setup for a future reveal. “[W]anting to move on to all the other stuff” and “time constraints” don’t make sense to me on a show where we also see filler like Bronn playfully scaring the hell out of Pod before they have an exchange about whether or not Jaime and Brienne are, um, copulating in a tent. Fun filler, but filler nonetheless.

Narratively speaking, the remaining Starks are, I think, on a path to reinventing their family’s identity by reconnecting with their ancestors’ practicality, away from the official teachings of Ned, whose value system was forged at the Eyrie by the Arryns (“As High as Honour”).

You’re so utterly full of it my friend, you have no clue what you’re talking about. Go back to the post-Season 6 finale interviews with Sapochnik, D&D, and Sophie Turner, and watch how they all contradict each other as to what Sansa’s motivations are.

Turner says Sansa is jealous of Jon, angry for getting no credit, and considering teaming up with LF, Sapochnik says she’s worried about LF undermining Jon, and D&D say a bit of both.

All season long, there were contradictions between what actors said and what the writers and directors said. This also happened in Season 4 with the whole rape of Cersei debacle.

And last year, Kit Harington said that Jon stops himself from beating Ramsay to death because he doesn’t want to become a monster, while D&D said that Jon stops himself because he realizes that “Ramsay is Sansa’s to kill”.

Of course you’re right that SOMETIMES the writers tell the actors what their characters’ intended motivations are, but sometimes they don’t. It’s not systematic by any means, unlike what you’re assuming. Actors also add their own layers of interpretation, and sometimes misunderstand the intent of the writers.

Dany is a good example of this. Emilia Clarke worships Dany, and thinks she’s some kind of saint, while the writing clearly indicates that she has taken dark turns multiple times, and is morally ambiguous in many respects.

If you think actors are perfect and flawless creatures who couldn’t possibly be wrong about their characters, then you’ve been smoking some heavy shit.

My reaction had nothing to do with the amount of time given to Sansa to react to the news about Arya. It’s just that in those first few moments after finding this out, all she could do was nonchalantly inquire about how Arya looked. Even given their earlier history, I can’t imagine Arya’s being so subdued after finding out similar news.

Go watch and read more interviews of Emilia before making a statement like that .she hardly thinks dany is saint and she has acknowledged when dany has made mistakes and had been wrong
just watch the inside episode of oathkeeper for example and there are countless examples like that

I know this is not what Ned meant, but I have always interpreted the Stark words as a threat: the wolf pack are coming, beware!
I really admire your analysis even if I sometimes can’t “enjoy” it, because it speaks about unpleasant truths. A great gift to be objective!

Cconcerning what it is to be a “true Stark”, it is definitely honor above all else as Ned taught his kids. We have no knowledge of what other Starks may have felt on the matter. But Ned was so honorable he couldn’t see clearly Renly was the better option and loses because of it.

The book plays to this even more with Robb marrying Jeyne Westerling because he bedded her. As a proper Stark he could not dishonor the girl, so he marries her and loses a kingdom and his life over it.

Shy Lady Dragon,
I am sincerely sorry. I genuinely do not wish to be unpleasant or rude, or to diminish my fellow “watchers’ “enjoyment of either the show or this site… It is most accidentally done.
Once again, all my apologies for that 🙂

WallyFrench,
I am afraid I cannot quite agree with you on the matter of Robb’s decision.
Robb had given his word to the Freys; he knew he was honour-bound to marry Walder’s daughter. He was also aware that Jeyne Westerling was a highborn young lady the rules of society dictate he would have to wed, were they to do the hanky-panky.
Sleeping with Jeyne Westerling constituted thus, in and of itself, a dishonourable act.

In fine, I believe it is quite important to separate what the characters say they do from what they actually do.

From a discursive standpoint, there are obvious Stark templates, notions and values Ned referred to constantly : honour, the “Norf”, the pack, the “Norf”, loyalty, the “Norf”, truth… Did I mention the “Norf” ? 😉
If being a “true Stark” is solely about rhetorically lionising those concepts, then ok. Ned was a true Stark, and so are his sister, all his sons and his younger daughter.
If, conversely, being a “true Stark” means actually living by those concepts, then… Oh dear ! Ned’s repeated lies rule him out, Lyanna’s behaviour disqualifies her as well, same thing for Robb and all his siblings / cousins. If it is all about behaving honourably, then only Catelyn was a “true Stark”. And she was not even a Stark.

It is starting to sound like a zen riddle : to become a true Stark, you have not to be a Stark ! ^^

The reason why I think it is so very important to detach what is said about/by the characters from what they do is because the chiasm between these two things is so significant, so massive both in scope and in nature, that I cannot believe George RR Martin is not doing it on purpose. It is too perfect to be accidental.

Ned, who lied about his nephew’ real lineage to protect him from Robert’s wrath, confronted Cersei, who lied about her children’s real lineage to protect them from Robert’s wrath … That is so blatant, so brazen, it is staggering. I doubt it could be any less subtle.

The same logic applies to the obvious parallel between “true Stark” Lyanna and “traitor” Sansa. Not only do they both follow in the footsteps of Brandon “the daughterless” Stark’s daughter (the Bael the Bard myth), not only did they both ditch their family for the sake of a questionable royal prince they barely knew, Sansa’s storyline was also originally meant as a symbolic continuation of her aunt’s. I seem to recall that, in his first drafts, George RR Martin intended for Sansa to marry Joffrey, have a child with him and live to regret her association with the House that victimised her own. Which would have operated, basically, as an alternative ending to Lyanna’s narrative arc : what if the Targaryens had quashed Robert’s Rebellion ? What if Rhaegar and Lyanna had lived ? She would have found herself married into and living among the family who decimated her own…

The dichotomy between the interpretation of the facts and the facts themselves, between what is said and what is done, between the narration and the truth is one of the driving forces of George RR Martin’s writing, I think.

ASoIaF is a story about stories. And the more we progress, the more the stories the characters “agree to tell each other over and over until (they) forget that it’s a lie” reveal their true nature. Spoiler alert : only the ladder is real… 😛
The younger batch of characters, the “children of” generation, inherited those tales and they now have to dig deep, beyond the coats of bullsh*t, to reconnect with the core truths (cf. House mottoes) so that, ultimately, they can invent their own stories. Their own legacy.

Well Emilia and sophie counts as big 5 or 6 right ..
It used to be Emilia and john Bradley who made most sense and shown knowledge and understanding of the characters ..but since the lastcouple of years the face of show has changed to Jon ..its kit turn now

Emilia has read the books. John Bradley hasn’t he said as much in that Oxford interview. Sophie also hasn’t read the books.

The whole “honor” trait isn’t a Stark thing. It’s a vale of Arryn thing (“As high as honor”) and Ned was, as we all know, fostered there. So that’s Jon Arryn’s influence, which Ned took seriously. I don’t remember what Jon Arryn thought of the murder of Elia’s children and Elia’s rape (which were certainly dishonorable), so he could also have been the type to use the idea of honor when it suited him.

Robb married Jeyne not because it was the proper Stark way, but because it was the gentleman thing to do (he’d bedded a maid from a noble family). Brandon allegedly bedded noblemen’s daughters and he didn’t marry them because it was the Stark way. I also assume Robb didn’t want to father a bastard because he saw how strained the relationship between Jon and Cat was.

Please there are people who consider rhaegar mad because of his obsession with prophecy but neither him nor Brandon is mad…sometime ago there was a thread of Mad targaryens and people listed everyone from rhaegar and baelor and aegon unlikely in that list ..people who are stupid or too human mistakes also considered madness because of incest ..if the same character is in other house it will just be a character thing and noy considered as whole family ….

i was not saying brandon is mad but people would have come up with mad thing because of his hot headedness and arrogance if he was targ ..
We associate and get influeneced by some characters and attribute it to entire house ..this happens with ned tywin aerys and stannis when it comes to respective houses .that’s all iam saying

I read somewhere sophie read sansa chapters alone ..
Is it true about john Bradley I don’t remember that interview that much but if its true then its amazing how he does it …liam is another character who speaks with many details and understanding you would think he read the books but he hadn’t read the books

Uuuggghhh, no. As I remarked in my original comment about this, I prefer to focus on the positive aspects of the show, but in this case I just see it as bad writing and/or bad setup for a future reveal. “[W]anting to move on to all the other stuff” and “time constraints” don’t make sense to me on a show where we also see filler like Bronn playfully scaring the hell out of Pod before they have an exchange about whether or not Jaime and Brienne are, um, copulating in a tent. Fun filler, but filler nonetheless.

Filler or foreshadowing? That scene was set up for the inevitable Jaime and Brienne love/sex/possible marriage, a key part of Jaime’s character development.

If that’s what it is, though, the “foreshadowing” was done in the tent during the conversation between Jaime and Brienne. Bronn and Pod was just playful banter. Mind you, I don’t object to it at all; I think we need the levity of such scenes to temper all the mayhem and darkness at the core of the series. I was simply making an argument against the idea that time constraints were what kept D&D from revealing more in the conversation between Brienne and Sansa re.: Arya.

Different episodes, different time considerations. But beyond that, the Bronn/Pod scene also serves to give the two of them a bit of screentime, which is particularly notable in Pod’s case, because he has barely any lines all season. The writers always try to work in a few bits for every castmember.

I totally agree with you about considering the screentime for each cast member; as I wrote above, I have no objection to such scenes. Among many other reunions, the Tyrion & Pod Meet Again scene ought to be interesting!

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Robb hears his brothers are dead while laying wounded and has a moment of weakness and has sex….teenage boys are wont to do this. He then forsakes his vow to not dishonor Jeyne Westerling knowing the potential consequences of it. That’s totally a Stark move. Like Ned saying Stannis has to rule even though he was far away from KL when as Renly said, whoever holds Joffrey will rule and should have made a premptive attack. Starks are honorable to the point of being foolish.

If that’s what it is, though, the “foreshadowing” was done in the tent during the conversation between Jaime and Brienne. Bronn and Pod was just playful banter. Mind you, I don’t object to it at all; I think we need the levity of such scenes to temper all the mayhem and darkness at the core of the series. I was simply making an argument against the idea that time constraints were what kept D&D from revealing more in the conversation between Brienne and Sansa re.: Arya.

Going to go read that top post now and try to win a prize…

Was it unnecessary though? Seems not since people are acting like Brienne is going to have a romance with Tormund and Jaime is going to stay with Cersei forever.

That scene smacked us in the face with a ping pong paddle that said “Jaime and Brienne are a romance” and STILL people don’t get it.

Hmmm. I guess that hadn’t really occurred to me, since to me the exchange between Jaime and Brienne in the tent made it crystal-clear that there’s something there (and it goes both ways!). Are people really that obtuse, that they need Bronn and Pod to tell them too? (And again, I don’t mind that exchange at all… I was just making a comment about theoretical time constraints.)

Hmmm. I guess that hadn’t really occurred to me, since to me the exchange between Jaime and Brienne in the tent made it crystal-clear that there’s something there (and it goes both ways!). Are people really that obtuse, that they need Bronn and Pod to tell them too? (And again, I don’t mind that exchange at all… I was just making a comment about theoretical time constraints.)

Lmao, now that would be a surprise! It’d be as unlikely as a Dornish Tyrell.

About Brienne and Jamie, do you guys think the show is going that direction? The book clearly shows a break between Cersei and Jamie. But the show has Jamie being the loyal brother still. I wonder how in seven episodes Jamie will switch sides.

No apologies needed! You have always been polite. Your objective and thorough approach is something to be praised. It’s not your fault that our beloved characters don’t sometimes deserve our approval. A sharp judgement should be the Stark way 🙂

Lmao, now that would be a surprise! It’d be as unlikely as a Dornish Tyrell.

About Brienne and Jamie, do you guys think the show is going that direction? The book clearly shows a break between Cersei and Jamie. But the show has Jamie being the loyal brother still. I wonder how in seven episodes Jamie will switch sides.

So this discussion starts out with “the Bronn and Pod scene about Jaime and Brienne fucking was useless.” And I roll up and say, “No, it wasn’t useless, it’s purpose was to bash people over the head with the fact that Jaime and Brienne are an active, evolving romance” and now someone is asking, “so do you think Jaime and Brienne will happen in the show?”

This makes me wants to rage post.

Instead of that, just because yes, people are that obtuse, sapphire-lions, a fantastic GoT fan, has put together this.

She pulls it out any time anyone says, “Jaime and Brienne aren’t a romance.”

Talking about screen time, there are few scenes put in just for laughs. Even the comedy gold Brienne and Tormund scenes have a purpose. (For the obtuse in the audience, that purpose was to reframe Brienne into a romantic and sexual characters. Sort of a “look Tormund wants her! Maybe Brienne will be loved some day, and have sex, like BRONN told us she would.”)

Benioff and Weiss have invested a ton of screen time in Jaime and Brienne, and not just the incredible Bathtub scene. Yes. It’s happening.

ghost of winterfell: I have seen some casual fans on reddit theorize that the black haired baby that Cersei had with Robert was Jon !!! (before the S6 finale) …like why would Ned hide Robert’s true born child lmao.

Even after the Tower of Joy casual viewers can be confused. I asked two friends after they finished watching season six who they thought Jon’s father is. They watch separately, one has read the books and neither of them are fans like us that constantly spend time online in places like this. Neither were certain of their answer but the reader said Robert and the other still said Ned even though there’s been nothing indicating incest with Lyanna. What I gathered from that is that unless someone is really astute the show hasn’t yet made it very clear… That is of course on purpose or else we wouldn’t have had all the Lyanna whispering in that scene and everything would have been explicitly confirmed.

ghost of winterfell: I have seen some casual fans on reddit theorize that the black haired baby that Cersei had with Robert was Jon !!! (before the S6 finale) …like why would Ned hide Robert’s true born child lmao.

I’d just like to thank all of you for keeping this enlightening discussion going, and for providing great links to insane/insightful convos on Reddit… thereby saving me the trouble of staying up all night going down rabbit holes with Jack Daniel.

Wolfish:
I’d just like to thank all of you for keeping this enlightening discussion going, and for providing great links to insane/insightful convos on Reddit… thereby saving me the trouble of staying up all night going down rabbit holes with Jack Daniel.

Reddit is a viper pit of shitposts and stupid, but at least it’s amusing 😉

HotPinkLipstick,
Of bloody course, Brienne and Jaime are in a romantic relationship ! It is painfully obvious. And the very nature of the relationship is what drives Jaime’s arc.

Jaime is one of the most quietly clever characters of ASoIaF. He does not have a “showy” intellect, like his younger brother or his father, but he has his own subdued form of strikingly pragmatic intelligence.

That is why he never actually redeemed himself, in the strongest sense of the term, and he probably never will. Like any good pragmatist, he does what needs to be done to save himself and he does not regret it, though he may be somewhat ashamed of the deeds he had to perform to achieve that result, be it stabbing the mad king who wanted to blow up King’s Landing (Jaime included), pushing the child witness of his incestuous adultery out of a window (Robert would have murdered him had he found out) or killing his own cousin. Shame, yes; regret, no.
Because he is such a realist, he does not to have an inbuilt moral compass to speak of and relies on that of the person he loves to guide his sense of self-preservation. When he loves Cersei, his interests are linked to hers so he follows her morality. When in love with Brienne, he abides by her principles.

The romantic nature of the relationship between Jaime and the galant knight of Tarth is not just a lovely “side quest”; it is pretty much the be-all-and-end-all of Jaime’s character development, I believe. Not some big moral epiphany (which he never truly had and probably never will), just Brienne. Denying that romance would therefore amount to denying Jaime’s narrative arc in relation to his core personality. That’s bizarre !

ghost of winterfell: I have seen some casual fans on reddit theorize that the black haired baby that Cersei had with Robert was Jon !!! (before the S6 finale) …like why would Ned hide Robert’s true born child lmao.

I did have a conversation with a group of work colleagues during season five, and one of them was convinced that Jon was Robert’s son because Jon has dark hair like the Baratheons and Gendry (and unlike Joffrey). Their theory was that the whole season one hair color plot was a clue not only about Joffrey’s parentage, but about Jon’s also. Am not quite sure why Ned would hide Robert’s son from Robert himself. Recall the only other book reader and I sort of looking at each other and mentally thinking a) this was so not the case and b) R+L=J.

I’ll be interested to see how they pull this off in the show, since they have Jamie remaining so loyal to Cersei. In the book, he’s constantly brooding over her betrayal and refuses to come to her rescue when she’s begging for his help. Part of me wonders if D&D are going to allow him to go down with House Lannister as a way of keeping things simpler and streamlined. We’ll see. I definitely hope it doesn’t happen like that! 🙂