I didn't go on to read the first chapter of The Prince because I am not sure I want to I don't want her with Wes, and I don't know if I can read just a chapter and then wait 30 days to get the rest of the story. Which would happen if i started reading and fell back into that world Tiffany creates and need to how she plays it all out. A small part of me is afraid there might be something in that chapter that would send me running and I don't want to run. But she has that thing about really pushing a persons acceptable limits.

I didn't go on to read the first chapter of The Prince because I am not sure I want to I don't want her with Wes, and I don't know if I can read just a chapter and then wait 30 days to get the rest of the story. Which would happen if i started reading and fell back into that world Tiffany creates and need to how she plays it all out. A small part of me is afraid there might be something in that chapter that would send me running and I don't want to run. But she has that thing about really pushing a persons acceptable limits.

Judy, I don't think there's a chance in heck you're going to run, you are hooked! *G*

I peeked at the begining of the chapter and it looks like Soren's early years, I really don't want to read about Soren. If it were Wes then that's a different story, he is my favorite.

Linda_________________"The Bookshop has a thousand books, all colors, hues and tinges, and every cover is a door that turns on magic hinges." ~ Nancy Byrd Turner

Judy, I don't think there's a chance in heck you're going to run, you are hooked! *G*

I peeked at the begining of the chapter and it looks like Soren's early years, I really don't want to read about Soren. If it were Wes then that's a different story, he is my favorite.

Linda

Yes, you are right I really am hooked, for better or worse. But I still worry that it will be too much. That she will push too far, and yes I do have a line somewhere, not sure of it's location anymore but I know it was around here somewhere and I am sure Tiffany Reisz is capable of bending me over it, so to speak.

I am going to save reading chapter one until I have all the chapter that will follow. I have 3 weeks of "Once Upon A Time" on TiVo waiting for a marathon, so this should be easy to resist for now.

I am getting the sense that the author is a little too enraptured with Soren. She is better at balancing out the other characters, but he is portrayed as too handsome, smart, etc. etc. when he is probably one of the most disturbing characters out there. I think his violent behaviour was supposed to be explained by his difficult childhood, but how about a little therapy instead of grooming and controlling minors? He doesn't seem to be conflicted about any of this stuff. I don't profess to be an expert on the BDSM community, but I am pretty sure they would not be okay with a way older adult grooming a minor. And trying to justify it by holding off on physical contact until 21 is a copout because the psychological control had already occurred by then.

I am also tired of how he is supposedly the best priest ever, and yet has very little conflict about the secret lifestyle he is living. If he was so into being a Catholic priest then he should have accepted the celibacy vows or else be a social worker instead. He is flaunting them openly and without any sense of guilt, which at least happened in the Thorn Birds, the supposed inspiration for this story. He wasn't even born Catholic or forced into priesthood so he knew the choice to be made, and still decided to make half-assed vows. I am pretty sure there are Bible quotes that condemn this. It's not like there is a higher purpose for his breaking of the vow, just lust and manipulation. It's obvious he likes the power and notoriety, which feeds into his vanity.

By the end of the Angel, I didn't hate him as much as in the Siren, but I felt the author was "squeeing" over his successful manipulations whereas I was just disgusted that there was another sucker to fall for his schtick. I don't mind reading about a character who is flawed, but it often reads like "look at how cool he is because he breaks all these social taboos".

I am still reading these books, but mostly because I want him to get a comeuppance although I suspect that it will not happen.

I am getting the sense that the author is a little too enraptured with Soren. She is better at balancing out the other characters, but he is portrayed as too handsome, smart, etc. etc. when he is probably one of the most disturbing characters out there. I think his violent behaviour was supposed to be explained by his difficult childhood, but how about a little therapy instead of grooming and controlling minors? He doesn't seem to be conflicted about any of this stuff. I don't profess to be an expert on the BDSM community, but I am pretty sure they would not be okay with a way older adult grooming a minor. And trying to justify it by holding off on physical contact until 21 is a copout because the psychological control had already occurred by then.

I am also tired of how he is supposedly the best priest ever, and yet has very little conflict about the secret lifestyle he is living. If he was so into being a Catholic priest then he should have accepted the celibacy vows or else be a social worker instead. He is flaunting them openly and without any sense of guilt, which at least happened in the Thorn Birds, the supposed inspiration for this story. He wasn't even born Catholic or forced into priesthood so he knew the choice to be made, and still decided to make half-assed vows. I am pretty sure there are Bible quotes that condemn this. It's not like there is a higher purpose for his breaking of the vow, just lust and manipulation. It's obvious he likes the power and notoriety, which feeds into his vanity.

By the end of the Angel, I didn't hate him as much as in the Siren, but I felt the author was "squeeing" over his successful manipulations whereas I was just disgusted that there was another sucker to fall for his schtick. I don't mind reading about a character who is flawed, but it often reads like "look at how cool he is because he breaks all these social taboos".

I am still reading these books, but mostly because I want him to get a comeuppance although I suspect that it will not happen.

Yes, I get the feeling too that Soren is the author favorite. All my issues aside with him for basically grooming and brainwashing a teenager (Eleanor before she became Nora) into becoming his very own masochistic sex toy - he also seems like the least "real" character to me. He comes across more like a sadistic godlike creature with manipulative super powers than an actual human being.

The sad thing to me is that when one observes Nora in her emotional reactions to Wesley I get the sinking feeling that Nora might have been perfectly happy with plain ol' vanilla sex - had she not met and been exposed to Soren when she did. I think her fear and reluctance of trying vanilla sex with Wesley - or some other nice guy not in the BDSM lifestyle - is very telling.

I am sure though that nothing bad is going to happen to Soren and he'll get his sadistic HEA with Nora.

I am getting the sense that the author is a little too enraptured with Soren. She is better at balancing out the other characters, but he is portrayed as too handsome, smart, etc. etc. when he is probably one of the most disturbing characters out there. I think his violent behaviour was supposed to be explained by his difficult childhood, but how about a little therapy instead of grooming and controlling minors? He doesn't seem to be conflicted about any of this stuff. I don't profess to be an expert on the BDSM community, but I am pretty sure they would not be okay with a way older adult grooming a minor. And trying to justify it by holding off on physical contact until 21 is a copout because the psychological control had already occurred by then.

I am also tired of how he is supposedly the best priest ever, and yet has very little conflict about the secret lifestyle he is living. If he was so into being a Catholic priest then he should have accepted the celibacy vows or else be a social worker instead. He is flaunting them openly and without any sense of guilt, which at least happened in the Thorn Birds, the supposed inspiration for this story. He wasn't even born Catholic or forced into priesthood so he knew the choice to be made, and still decided to make half-assed vows. I am pretty sure there are Bible quotes that condemn this. It's not like there is a higher purpose for his breaking of the vow, just lust and manipulation. It's obvious he likes the power and notoriety, which feeds into his vanity.

By the end of the Angel, I didn't hate him as much as in the Siren, but I felt the author was "squeeing" over his successful manipulations whereas I was just disgusted that there was another sucker to fall for his schtick. I don't mind reading about a character who is flawed, but it often reads like "look at how cool he is because he breaks all these social taboos".

I am still reading these books, but mostly because I want him to get a comeuppance although I suspect that it will not happen.

I could not agree with you more on every count!! I know this is fiction but it truely disturbs me the way the author allows the characters to gloss over and excuse their actions. As a priest Soren is a fraud and that's the kindest way I can put it, without using the words I'd really like to use but are not fit for a public forum, haha. I would really like to see the characters held accountable for their actions and Soren most of all, but no, I don't think that's going to happen. It would be nice to see them redeemed but I don't see that happening either. I've grown quite fond of Wes and Michael, for them I want to see a happy ending.

Linda_________________"The Bookshop has a thousand books, all colors, hues and tinges, and every cover is a door that turns on magic hinges." ~ Nancy Byrd Turner

I am getting the sense that the author is a little too enraptured with Soren. She is better at balancing out the other characters, but he is portrayed as too handsome, smart, etc. etc. when he is probably one of the most disturbing characters out there. I think his violent behaviour was supposed to be explained by his difficult childhood, but how about a little therapy instead of grooming and controlling minors? He doesn't seem to be conflicted about any of this stuff. I don't profess to be an expert on the BDSM community, but I am pretty sure they would not be okay with a way older adult grooming a minor. And trying to justify it by holding off on physical contact until 21 is a copout because the psychological control had already occurred by then.

I am also tired of how he is supposedly the best priest ever, and yet has very little conflict about the secret lifestyle he is living. If he was so into being a Catholic priest then he should have accepted the celibacy vows or else be a social worker instead. He is flaunting them openly and without any sense of guilt, which at least happened in the Thorn Birds, the supposed inspiration for this story. He wasn't even born Catholic or forced into priesthood so he knew the choice to be made, and still decided to make half-assed vows. I am pretty sure there are Bible quotes that condemn this. It's not like there is a higher purpose for his breaking of the vow, just lust and manipulation. It's obvious he likes the power and notoriety, which feeds into his vanity.

By the end of the Angel, I didn't hate him as much as in the Siren, but I felt the author was "squeeing" over his successful manipulations whereas I was just disgusted that there was another sucker to fall for his schtick. I don't mind reading about a character who is flawed, but it often reads like "look at how cool he is because he breaks all these social taboos".

I am still reading these books, but mostly because I want him to get a comeuppance although I suspect that it will not happen.

I read somewhere, maybe Tiffany's site, that Soren is shaped by her former Dom. Not that he was a priest, I am pretty sure she spelled that out. I also think the character of Soren is the center of the story, he is the character that all the others circle and are in the same universe because of. So as an author, Soren is her Sun and the others are the planets, important, but without the sun there would be no life.

I also think if I was a writer I would be over the moon at having created a Soren character, he is complex (that should not be read as I would excuse a real life human from behaving like him) she has given life to a Very Multi-dimensional character that hundreds of people spend time in a hate, understand, no don't understand, what the Heck is he doing, how did he do that, yea I can see how he did that, wow thats horrible that happened to him, and many please no please no, don't do that. And yet the people want to know what happens to the planets next.

I have huge hope, that the pay off comes that Soren somehow makes a "heros" journey that is believeable and in the end we are somewhat surprised that things have worked out, but I really don't think that will happen. He is a dark character with some light every now and then. And I think Tiffany Reisz has the chops to leave him hanging a lone in his world as the others get their HEA. (i still would like him and Nora to have HEA)

side notes: Tiffany Reisz's current guy is the author of Fifty Shades of Earl Grey
And the last 3 books of this series are (i think i read this) going to be Nora pre The Siren. So I am reserving judgement on the Nora Soren stuff until then. Lets just say any 15 year old stealing multiple high end proformance cars in one evening is not your adverage innocent. (not an excuse, just not all teenagers are created equal and I think I will wait and see what our Elenore was doing, reminder: not saying it makes everything ok, just saying from a story stand point I can give latitude)

[And the last 3 books of this series are (i think i read this) going to be Nora pre The Siren. So I am reserving judgement on the Nora Soren stuff until then. Lets just say any 15 year old stealing multiple high end performance cars in one evening is not your average innocent. (not an excuse, just not all teenagers are created equal and I think I will wait and see what our Elenore was doing, reminder: not saying it makes everything ok, just saying from a story stand point I can give latitude) [/color]

Judy, I have a real problem with this giving Soren any kind of latitude. 15 is still 15 and Soren is a priest, he should know better. It doesn't matter if Nora stole 25 cars in one night, that doesn't make what he's done ok. It seemed to me like the author was trying to justify this relationship by making a point of saying that Nora seduced him, she's never the one seduced. What a bunch of hogwash! He's still accountable for his own actions. Waiting until she was 20 at least made it legal but he had his hooks in her long before that. Actually can't even give him that much of a pass because he's a damn priest for heaven's sake! He should know better x 100 and as a religious leader he has even more responsibility to behave honorably and with honesty.

It's like the excuse they're using with Michael, he was already interested in bdsm sex (even though he was a virgin) so that makes it fine for the grownups to have sex with him at 15 and officially introduce him into the lifestyle. Because really they're saving his life, they know what's best.

Linda_________________"The Bookshop has a thousand books, all colors, hues and tinges, and every cover is a door that turns on magic hinges." ~ Nancy Byrd Turner

[And the last 3 books of this series are (i think i read this) going to be Nora pre The Siren. So I am reserving judgement on the Nora Soren stuff until then. Lets just say any 15 year old stealing multiple high end performance cars in one evening is not your average innocent. (not an excuse, just not all teenagers are created equal and I think I will wait and see what our Elenore was doing, reminder: not saying it makes everything ok, just saying from a story stand point I can give latitude) [/color]

Judy, I have a real problem with this giving Soren any kind of latitude. 15 is still 15 and Soren is a priest, he should know better. It doesn't matter if Nora stole 25 cars in one night, that doesn't make what he's done ok. It seemed to me like the author was trying to justify this relationship by making a point of saying that Nora seduced him, she's never the one seduced. What a bunch of hogwash! He's still accountable for his own actions. Waiting until she was 20 at least made it legal but he had his hooks in her long before that. Actually can't even give him that much of a pass because he's a damn priest for heaven's sake! He should know better x 100 and as a religious leader he has even more responsibility to behave honorably and with honesty.

It's like the excuse they're using with Michael, he was already interested in bdsm sex (even though he was a virgin) so that makes it fine for the grownups to have sex with him at 15 and officially introduce him into the lifestyle. Because really they're saving his life, they know what's best.

Linda

I am giving a character latitude, the book world would be so boring if I only read about princes or slightly damaged and easy fixed characters. That is the latitude, for a character not a Human. As a character IMO Tiffany has created a very complex one, not one I want to be, or to love, but one I sure want to read about. And you and I differ on this issue of 15, I see it as a random age ( not anything under 15 that is a child) but 15 is a fence for me. AND i think that is the genius in putting that in the story if she had made all the characters legal age, there would not be a question of right and wrong. Or under a certain age, not a question. But we (the USA) put 15 year olds in Prison for LIFE, so to say they aren't old enough to be sexual is the rub for me, or say the fence issue. At 15 no one could take advantage of me no matter their age ( and there were moments) I was in complete control of my present and future and had a lot of freedom to make my choices. It wasn't luck that they were good choices, i was mature enough. I know the same isn't true for my two kids, they have had a different up bringing and they are different people. So that to me is the fence issue.

He comes across more like a sadistic godlike creature with manipulative super powers than an actual human being.

The sad thing to me is that when one observes Nora in her emotional reactions to Wesley I get the sinking feeling that Nora might have been perfectly happy with plain ol' vanilla sex - had she not met and been exposed to Soren when she did. I think her fear and reluctance of trying vanilla sex with Wesley - or some other nice guy not in the BDSM lifestyle - is very telling.

I am sure though that nothing bad is going to happen to Soren and he'll get his sadistic HEA with Nora.

I did read somewhere that the story is meant to have biblical symbolism, but I am not a religious scholar (but Tiffany Reisz is) so it is beyond me.

As I disagree about Nora and "plain ol' vanilla sex". Her personality is very strong and the character is a push the limits kinda person, so why wouldn't she be adventures in the sex deptment? There are degrees to BDSM and I don't think she had a need to be hardcore, but she is a "balls to the wall", so I don't see it as unreasonable that she would find the lifestyle all on her own.

I also think in the real world, kinky f*ckery is much more common than is talked about, but that is just IMO. And let me add I am so ok with not hearing about the kink any of my friends are into, I don't feel anyone should have the NEED to talk about it. But look at Ana, FSoG, she isn't a vanilla girl, and I would guess as their relationship progressed the kink went up a few degrees, she was open, he was more than willing. And I think most sex should be based on pleasure and if something pleases the partner, you (IMO), get pleasure from doing something that they get pleasure from. And down the kinky road you go.

Ok why to early in my morning to be picking apart BDSM, real life and Fictional characters. Wouldn't of High School English book discussion been so much more interesting if the books had been from the burn list.

[quote="Judyblueeyes"][
I am giving a character latitude, the book world would be so boring if I only read about princes or slightly damaged and easy fixed characters. That is the latitude, for a character not a Human. As a character IMO Tiffany has created a very complex one, not one I want to be, or to love, but one I sure want to read about.

I disagree, I don't think the book would have been boring if the sexual players had been adults. I think it would have been a better story but then I'm speaking from the angle that I want to actually like and enjoy the characters in my books. They don't have to be perfect by far but I want them to leave the kids alone when it comes to sex.

Quote:

And you and I differ on this issue of 15, I see it as a random age ( not anything under 15 that is a child) but 15 is a fence for me. AND i think that is the genius in putting that in the story if she had made all the characters legal age, there would not be a question of right and wrong.

She had enough 'right and wrong' by Soren being a priest, she didn't need to add in that they are messing around with an underage kid sexually. This book is a little like throwing everything in but the kitchen sink when it comes to disturbing/offending behavior. It didn't need to be the level it is and I think it would have been a better book without it, imho. Every reader is different so I am only speaking for myself.

Quote:

Or under a certain age, not a question. But we (the USA) put 15 year olds in Prison for LIFE, so to say they aren't old enough to be sexual is the rub for me, or say the fence issue. At 15 no one could take advantage of me no matter their age ( and there were moments) I was in complete control of my present and future and had a lot of freedom to make my choices. It wasn't luck that they were good choices, i was mature enough. I know the same isn't true for my two kids, they have had a different up bringing and they are different people. So that to me is the fence issue.

I don't see it as an on the fence issue at all, Nora is in her 30's and Soren in his 40's, Michael was 15 when they took him on as a sexual plaything. Soren *gave* him to Nora as a present to take his virginity. There is no spin that can make that ok. The child's upbringing doesn't make that ok. Of course kids at 15 can be sexual but that doesn't make it right for the adults to take advantage of them. Soren being a priest just makes it all the more depraved.

Linda_________________"The Bookshop has a thousand books, all colors, hues and tinges, and every cover is a door that turns on magic hinges." ~ Nancy Byrd Turner

thought this might be interesting, it is a map of the world and the age of consent. What is the most surprising is there are "western" nations that it is lower than 16.

I am posting this not to try make you see things my way. I am totally OK with us not seeing eye to eye on these characters, I love that people can see them differently. It makes the discussion much more fun, or at least for me.

And I also say throw all the bad traits in the story, I mean if he is a priest breaking his vows, why wouldn't he bend other rules, seems logical to me.

so countries to keep your minors away from surprisingly, almost the whole continent of South America, Germany, Italy, Spain, Portugal, France and most of the Slavic countries. Interesting c'est pas (you don't say)

Judy, I don't think I need to keep my minors out of Germany but you can believe if we stayed there and a Catholic priest in his 40's chose give use my 15 hear old son (already mentally unstable) as an anniversary gift to his 33 year old lover so she could take his virginity and officially bring him into the S&M lifestyle I'd have a problem with it. Do we really need the age of legal consent to know that's wrong? Adding to that whisking him away for the summer at the age of 17 to hide him so they can protect said priest and have that 33 (now 35?) year old woman train/play with him sexually, again under the justification that they are helping him. Ever notice that they always have an ulterior motive that benefits their agenda as well? Yeah I'd have a problem with it, I have a good friend in Germany that has two teenage sons and I feel certain she would too. Some things are just basic good sense, something this 'best priest ever' seems to be sorely lacking in and Nora as well.

Soren as a priest that bends the rules is putting it lightly and kindly, more so than he deserves. IMHO. He's sick on the inside and manipulates everyone around him. No I'm far from ready to see him earn a HEA, I'd rather see him held accountable instead.

Linda_________________"The Bookshop has a thousand books, all colors, hues and tinges, and every cover is a door that turns on magic hinges." ~ Nancy Byrd Turner

I know age of consent varies from country to country but common sense and remembering what one was like as a teenager should be enough to realize that fifteen is too young to be sexually involved with thirtysomething and fortysomething adults like Nora and Soren.

All I have to do is put myself back to when I was fifteen, when my brother was that age and go, no way would it be appropriate.

Ok, Nora thinks Soren is the best priest ever, NOT me. And Soren, Nora, and Griff are engaging in this activity in the world of Fiction, just like we learned but didn't see in FSoG with Elena. I do think there is a difference in a book when it is mentioned and not show. But, my point of view isn't that in real life lets all go after kids, my point is in a story I can separate fiction from reality and I can read it without confusing and if Michael was younger I would of put the book away. I don't get into reading or looking at child pornography. There is that book and movie, Lolita, right? it is all about a sick guy and a young girl. I don't watch Brooke Shields movies from back in the day because once I got to old enought to realize she was acting in child porn my stomach turned and she was nowhere near 15 in Pretty Baby.

so I don't need you to agree with me, but I do want you to understand what I am NOT saying and what I am saying. i am saying in Fiction 15 is a fence age for me, I don't have much problem with an author putting these elements into the story. I think the characters are damaged, some much more than others as it is being unfolded. So yes as an element of the story Tiffany Reisz is writing I think it is a part of showing these people for their damage or their prespective of what is "normal" to them.

In real life, I don't like seeing old men with 20 year old "women" either. I also regardless of where I live wouldn't of wanted my son or daughter under the influence of any guy/girl their age or older. As a teen I want them under my influence, but I put in work to make that happen that way.