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Not really a lead computing gunsight is a wonderful thing... Actually it's easier to gun an enemy aircraft today then it was in WW2. All you do is point the nose at him at which point your radar ranges him, a computer runs some quick math that would make your head hurt to calculate the perfect deflection, and all you need to do is put him in the ring and pull the trigger.

Technology has even taken the skill out of shooting.

Seeing a Flanker go down in flames in the gunsight brings a smile to my face when I run out of missiles.

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Originally Posted by Tk3997

Well active defenses would change things quite a bit although it must be noted that the actual combat effectiveness of these systems is still largely unproven. Still many nations are working on versions so they can't be total bunk even if they probably aren't the impenetrable shield some marketing portrays. The best defense though is still A. Don't get hit. and B. Armor as the later is always on and can't be fooled.

And they would be too dangerous to use in an urban setting. For example, despite the Trophy system that Israel used was probably one of the most effective CMs, it would do squat if the RPG if fired from the middle of a crowd. Sure, you can shoot it down, but you'll end up killing 20 more innocent civilians in the process.

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Originally Posted by Tk3997

Actually the F-4 always held the advantage because of one simple thing: Thrust. The F-4 could disengage at will and take the fight into the vertical in ways no Mig present could hope to match.

Vietnam is also a less then ideal example because the rules of engagement prohibited BVR attacks requiring a visual ID to be allowed to fire. So to some extent it was political meddling that hobbled the F-4 early on it wasn’t allowed to use that big radar and those BVR missiles. I have doubts it would have been stupendously effective, but then again Migs of that time IIRC lacked advanced countermeasures or radar warning gear so if they F-4 was too far away to see and they didn’t spot the missile and just kept cruising straight and level… who knows.

Beyond that despite all these problems the vast majority of kills came from missiles and the Sidewinder at least was general reasonably effective inside it's intended engagement envelope. It also showed the US it needed improvements and spurred them to advanced there weapons, and by the late 70s and early 80s both Sparrows and Sidewinders where much more effective and reliable. Lacking this experience I have a sneaking hunch that Russian weapons of that time were and maybe still be markedly inferior to those that came out of the US in terms of tracking and reliability in real combat.

Of course, those MiGs are hopeless in going vertical simply because they don't have the power. Read an interview by a flight sim site (no, it is not SimHQ or Frugal's) with an actual Rhino driver (F-4 pilot), and he mentioned what usually happens in combat in Vietnam.

Of course, all it takes for the MiG to survive is a hard turn (even then it is debatable). RoE has been the biggest enemy to employing BVR missiles (that was the same thing that stopped Tomcats from employing the Phoenix the way they intended, if ever...then again, even if they did, they miss).

Last point? It happens all the time (the 'Russian weapons of that time were and maybe still be markedly inferior' part). During the Yom Kippur War, heat-seekers have started to show their mettle (based on what the Shafrir 2s did to the adversaries...I could not imagine what a Python does).

Gun loads: Seems that you are right on that part, but then again, F-15E is a mud-mover compared to its air-to-air brothers.

And yes, the Brits almost deleted the gun out of the Typhoon. And they would be made the jokers again.

And also, the Tomcat never really went into air-to-air combat in the Gulf War (that was when plans to give it some serious mud-moving capabilities were given the green light). Their last air-to-air kill was against a helicopter with a Sidewinder, then again, an F-15E manged to take down a flying helicopter with a laser-guided bomb. And by that they were using -M versions of the Sparrows, which is like a different animal compared to their -E brothers. And EVEN THEN AGAIN, the States are too busy testing the AMRAAM (and I find it ironic that the Tomcat was tested with it, but not issued to it in general).

I think we should go back to topic on creating characters etc. The problem I have is which way I should go for one of the major supporting characters (because the main characters would always be the Witches, right?), which is:

1. A pilot (more like Naval Aviator) plus a RIO in the Liberion Navy. The problem with such an implementation is that they would be pretty much stuck with the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, except if we have an in-story reason to bring back F-14D Super Tomcats into active duty (even at the end of the fic the JSF would not be ready for duty). The Super Tomcats would also serve as the typical 'mid-series upgrade'.

2. The same combo (except that it is pilot + WSO) in the Liberion Air Force, flying the F-15E Strike Eagle. The problem is that for most of the fic, they would pretty much be using the same thing (don't ask me to put them into the F-22), and it doesn't offer any real challenge...unless, we can be daring enough to implement some of the lessons learned from the F-15 ACTIVE program, including throwing in the thrust vectoring capability (the canards would not make their appearance though) as a major upgrade, basically they fly the same thing but continuously upgraded to no end.

And no, they would not fly superplanes (ala Ace Combat), although rivals on the same side might.

The others know that I have no sense for scale in real weapons, having been used to running around in 17m humanoid machines to whom the G-8 is a hand-held weapon. Please bear with me some more.

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Originally Posted by selkirk

There's some scaling down in the material, mostly shortening barrels, but calibers are generally kept the same. If you look at the tank witches, most of their cannon carbines are only about typical rifle length. They most likely use 37-45 mm calibers in general, not any of the heavier weapons though.

Another way they remove weight from the guns is making them bolt action. The 37 mm cannons the Stuka squadron carries are single shot and bolt action, which would probably make the entire gun simpler and lighter. The tank witches shown generally have magazine-fed cannon carbines.

Also, 3000 rounds? Can you imagine anyone carrying that many? The Stuka squadron with 37 mm cannons get 24 rounds each. Witches with machine guns have about 200-250 rounds at most, and usually less.

Oops. I've scaled it down to 900, and fired in bursts.

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Originally Posted by kct

I am going to answer this one-by-one (anything that I can deal with), please don't take offense.

Nah that's how we operate while debugging OCs.

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Originally Posted by kct

We have no idea if the said method is still employed in the current iteration of Strike Witches.

It looks good, streamlines the gatling, gives the familiar a place to sit and possible act in tandem with the Wizard, provides a flat surface for the Wizard to perform his barrier tricks, mount an M202 launcher that carries proper-sized sabots while acting as a deflector for the backblast, not to mention distinguishes the Wizard further... I'll keep it.

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Originally Posted by kct

Normal infantry already have trouble carrying ammunition (this was the reason why they switched over to the 5.56x45mm in the first place: ammunition weight). Take the usual 5.56x45mm NATO that everyone is familiar with. One of these weighs about 3.56g, and if you multiply the amount by 100, the ammunition (alone) would have weigh about 356g. And soldiers usually carry about 6 STANAG magazines (6 x 30 = 180 rounds, which is about 640.8g, and this is WITHOUT taking weight of magazines into consideration), or even more. Possibly the closest common-issue ammunition in the West, the hard-hitting 7.62x51mm NATO, to your planned 7.76mm, weighs in about 9.5 per round. And we have not moved to the .50BMG alley yet.

Also, do take note of this: Modern jet fighters carry less than 1000 rounds in their guns, and the A-10 carries ONLY 1100 rounds in their typical combat load. Antique SUU-23 gunpods of the Vietnam times carry about 1200 rounds, but they caused so much trouble with the F-4 Phantom IIs that mount them to the extent that an actual internal gun was the only way to go (which resulted in the F-4E).

Noted thanks.

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Originally Posted by kct

Spoiler for This picture tells the whole story about the size of a Sidewinder:

Of course, there is always the FIM-92 Stinger, but it works better with a launcher.

I was thinking scaled down again. XD Never mind, Tk showed me the M202, and I'm working it into the sketches.

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Originally Posted by kct

A Browning M2 would still hit hard. Although it would do jack against an MBT or anything with heavy armor.

Noted. So it's either a 4-barrel gatling or the M2... Personally, the gatling is still way to ingrained with the YA-10A look to be removed. I'll just stick with it and the limits. ><

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Originally Posted by Tk3997

Caliber isn't really the major issue anyway just consider a 40mm grenade launcher and a 40mm bofors. Some of the anti-tank weapons of today are extremely fat as well (since width is directly related to the effectiveness of a shaped charge). If you really want an idea of relative power look at the LENGTH of the cartridge.

Would very much help as indeed allot of the weight you run into with heavier auto-cannons is the feeding system the gun and breech itself actually not being a huge part of that.

Although it must be noted that the effectiveness of a single shot cannon in air combat would be dubious (though possible magic guidance on shots might help) though it would be viable for strikes on slower moving ground targets. Then again once you’re at the single shot level recoilless rifles start to look more attractive although muzzle velocity would be lower in most cases.

That's actually SW being a tad dense IMO you're average machine gunner will haul considerably more then that too a fight up to two or three times as much if he's a bit burly and he's a normal human. He won't be moving much once he's in position though, but then he also doesn't have magically boosted strength.

Still 3000 is probably excessive as in 7.62mm rounds that would weigh on the order of 75 kilos ignoring the belts and the drum. 1,000 I can see though.

I wouldn’t say your very familiar with how real energy weapons work either.

Yeah. I've dropped the rate of fire to 100 rpm sustained, otherwise fired in bursts, and one drum carries 900.

The drum, belt and the missile launcher system are mounted on a brace on the waist and outside of the fuselage. In my thinking, this allows the Wizard to return to ship, become mounted onto a scaffold and hot-swap them before launching again, the process taking about 10s unless in need of refueling or correcting faults?

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Originally Posted by Tk3997

Ahh okay yeah nothing wrong with that.

Thankfully.

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Originally Posted by Tk3997

The ammo supply might be a bit extreme more so given the nature and weight of the weapon. Try more like 1k.

OK.

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Originally Posted by Tk3997

What? There’s no reason for a jet Striker not to be built just like the old ones with the inlet in front and exhausting out the feet. It actually makes more sense now as all jets are in essence “pushers”. Unless I'm just not getting what you're describing.

You got it alright. I reversed it for looks, since I was going for an experimental turbine engine. I've gone back to the YA-10A's di-axial turbine mounts onto the Striker. Looks better now too, and even more recognizable as the YA-10A. Not to mention gives me room to fit in sticks that allow for standing if the need arises.

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Originally Posted by Tk3997

Kct covered why this wouldn’t work very well. I think your best bet is a hand carried launcher with reloads in a backpack. Maybe SMALL AT rockets could be fitted onto the legs via hardpoints.

With the turbines, there's no room now. So a 4-rocket package on the fuselage where the YA-10's right wing usually is will be the main AP weapon.

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Originally Posted by Tk3997

Spraying bullets into a cloud bank is a piss poor way to try and kill a maneuvering air target…

I do know that. That's why the familiar is sitting in the cockpit and helping targeting...

...but granted the gatling is only meant for close-in fights when it is almost impossible to miss, or as a stop-gap while he returns home to rearm.

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Originally Posted by Tk3997

True, but just keep the problems with the weapon in question in mind

For killing heavy units in a modern setting missles are just a way better option then any sort of cannon is.

Reason why I didn't want to go for a cannon in the first place. The gatling was just... Aesthetically nailed in place is the phrase.

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Originally Posted by Tk3997

Which isn't to say a cannon couldn't work the top armor on an MBT is it's thinnest and a witch would be firing into that armor this is how a Gau-8 can defeat a tank to start with. (it would just bounce off the front or flanks). Thus a heavy single shot cannon might be viable for hunting tanks, but an auto-cannon of the needed power is simply going to be too huge for them to use.

Something like it is mentioned in novels IIRC and in any case I personally think it makes sense so I have no issue with it.

Does it mention if Neuroi are weaker in armor somewhere? Or are they "AV14 all around"?

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Originally Posted by Tk3997

That might be the prescribed load, but the fact is that ammunition is one thing soldiers DON'T mind hefting more of into battle and you'll find that any time combat is really expected they'll have stuffed more mags anywhere they fit.

Indeed your average guy with an M60 will often lugging up to 800 to a thousand rounds into action with the gun clipped into belts. SAW gunners carry even more over a thousand rounds easily if combat is expected. This is on top of there armor and other gear. In fact a fully loaded infantrymen set to march could be carrying more weight then many witches do admittedly with most of it slung over his back. A recent study found the average approach march load (basically walking up to a combat zone) was around 44 kilos. An emergency approach march load (which is more or less carrying EVERYTHING you might need in a fight) was a stagger 57 kilograms.

This is considered excessive, but the fact remains it is what troops are acutally carrying into battle on a routine basis. Thus this can be used as something of a baseline.

I know this, personally. I was an MG-gunner during my MP-Basic course, and despite the weight, I just loved it.

And I'm mounting this heavy gear on a boy, so weight is less of a problem as opposed to girls. Could well be a reason for the world to treasure Wizards.

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Originally Posted by Tk3997

These rounds are rather large though a single 20mm cartirdge for the M61 weighs as much as TEN 7.62mm rounds. Modern fighters also carry smaller loads of cannon ammo less becasue of weight concerns and more becasue these are backup weapons. Thus they have just enough ammo for a short emengrecy action, but are not loaded for use in a protracted gunfight. Most modern fighters acutally carry 500 rounds or less of shells considerably smaller then those used in a Gau-8.

Noted. For the first season, the story will be mostly ship-based, so I'll KIV this factlet.

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Originally Posted by Keroko

Heh, good thing I don't even drink the stuff then. Maybe I can negotiate a truce.

Try singing. You know how aliens often get defeated by song, or at least get turned into fanboys.

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Originally Posted by Keroko

Why not give them a missile launcher a-la Sanya? Not only are they canon, but they also allow for no less then 9 missiles, all of which have quite an impact, before having to re-arm.

The Fliegelhummer seems rather small in caliber, so instead of 9 20mm, I'm going for 4 66mm, hopefully enough for downing Monster of the Week types when struck properly. I don't intend the protagonist go head to head with several Planetary Assault Carriers after all. At least not yet, not without enough ships and squadrons, and not without appropriate power-ups.

But one will be going to give him trouble rather soon.

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Originally Posted by Keroko

And we have no idea if they're not, there's no reason to throw away a perfectly good idea just because the anime didn't show it.

If you're adding hardpoints and unit-supported weaponry, that's hardly an infantryman in the Strike Witches universe any more. It might be a mecha musume design, but not really an SW one.

As for 900 rounds, that's still way more than is typical for a WW2 or even modern fighter, and an insane amount for an infantryman carrying a 30 mm GAU-8. Note that the weaponry in SW follows the same caliber and actual bullet as the real gun... they don't fire mini-sized bullets. Usually the only concession is a shorter barrel, and simpler loading mechanisms for infantry (magazine and/or bolt-action, instead of belt-fed). A GAU-8 30 mm round weighs about 0.7 kg each, so you're talking some 630 kg of ammo, not even including the gun or feed system. For comparison, the fighters carry about 60-70 kg in total, while slow divebombers carry a single 125 kg bomb, or a 37 mm cannon (originally 295 kg, but modified to bolt-action).

Also, despite what the anime might show, most fights with the Neuroi are not one Neuroi vs many, but more on the other end of the spectrum. The Witches are generally outnumbered, but the Neuroi have more wasteful tactics, since they don't really care about loss of 'life'. A typical air engagement in the novel might have the Suomus 1st Squadron and the Indepedent Volunteer Squadron (~12+5), going up against a formation of maybe 40-60 or more Rallos fighters, plus some medium and heavy bombers. Four rockets might not cut it.

I'll think about the rockets, but you mean I can't replace the G-8 with a minigun? Because I can see no way I can shrink the G-8 at all, not with the 30mm cartridges.

I don't see why you couldn't, though you'd have to wonder what would be the point. Neuroi units in the later novels have enough armor to withstand HMG bullets to non-critical areas, and I'd assume any minigun would use similar. Why not just use an (auto)cannon?

Anyway, the Strike Witches take up a different role compared to normal aircraft in the 'verse. In book 3, the Independent Volunteer Squadron goes on a SEAD mission prior to a tactical bombing run, while 1st Squadron provides air cover for the actual bomber. Witches simply can't carry anywhere near the load of an actual bomber plane... they're just girls, not mechs. Sure, they can carry some heavier weaponry, but not that heavy. IMHO giving them hardpoints for missiles and heavy weapon support braces makes it more like Sky Girls, or real mecha, not Strike Witches.

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Originally Posted by Keroko

An E-mail here and there may be possible, but beyond that I think they're working just like us: mostly relying on what they can read.

Actually, the main setting designer works on most of the material (all 3 novels, side novel, doujinshi, anime, don't know if he has a hand in either manga though), and there are actually fairly few places that don't match up or couldn't be explained easily enough. There are probably some honest mistakes, like the map in the doujinshi, and some of the older material has gotten outdated or replaced, but considering it all happens in different years (during which there were big technological advances even in the real world), some things like the Neuroi beam weaponry could be chalked up to new technology. Maybe.

That is the reason the main supporting guys for the girls in my fic would be flying actual mud-movers (hence the use of a Strike Eagle or a Super Tomcat), rather than strain the girls with something they can't do (although they can do things like tagging targets with lasers and the like, and send a Paveway into the @$$ of the target).

Of course, SEAD guys likes to put things in HARM's way.

However, here are some entries I've made for the specifications of the planes the characters might use or encounter (most of them are still drafts). I'm using the MAHQ-style formatting for them, for now. Some of their specs are fictional at best.

The reason the ramjet existed is because I wanted the Super Tomcats to follow the Super Sylphs seen in Yukikaze very closely. They would share similar mission scopes, despite more work would be given to the Super Tomcats as mud-movers and the like. And no the gay associated with the other one.

I still have no idea what China is called in the SW-verse though. However, some of the information could be left vague, as to mirror the real-life difficulty in obtaining information about the capabilities of the Chinese military, something even the ones in the alternate universe would face due to the secretive nature of the Chinese.

The POV I'm doing for the first "season" is will be a side-story to the anime, so the bullets still work, the stuff that has been learnt hasn't been learnt yet and it allows me to start at a lower level to build up in future seasons. This means using stuff that no longer works when they still work, then as the Neuroi catch up, alter stuff as they go along. Hence why the persistence on using a minigun.

I don't know, whatever it is I would give a run up as to what happened after 1945 (which would closely mirror real-life events, such as Britannia stopped being a major force in occupation of other nations and the like, the Fuso Empire's military turned into a self-defense force, and many more...might even cover the split of Karlsland...of course, by the time the fic started, they are already reunited).

If you're adding hardpoints and unit-supported weaponry, that's hardly an infantryman in the Strike Witches universe any more. It might be a mecha musume design, but not really an SW one.

Well the problem is sort of that fighters grew after the war and to remain relevant Striker would probably have too as well. I'm also not sure how "against" the setting it really is if you look at some of the earlier designs I personally think it’s the Art Style even more then the exact technical details that matter.

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As for 900 rounds, that's still way more than is typical for a WW2 or even modern fighter, and an insane amount for an infantryman carrying a 30 mm GAU-8.

He already backed off the 30mm think from what I can see he's talking like 900 rounds for a rifle caliber mini-gun which is reasonable IMO.

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Also, despite what the anime might show, most fights with the Neuroi are not one Neuroi vs many, but more on the other end of the spectrum. The Witches are generally outnumbered, but the Neuroi have more wasteful tactics, since they don't really care about loss of 'life'. A typical air engagement in the novel might have the Suomus 1st Squadron and the Indepedent Volunteer Squadron (~12+5), going up against a formation of maybe 40-60 or more Rallos fighters, plus some medium and heavy bombers. Four rockets might not cut it.

Which would tend to favor a high capacity rapid fire weapon actually...

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And they would be too dangerous to use in an urban setting. For example, despite the Trophy system that Israel used was probably one of the most effective CMs, it would do squat if the RPG if fired from the middle of a crowd. Sure, you can shoot it down, but you'll end up killing 20 more innocent civilians in the process.

Depends the danger exists since the impact tends to detonate the incoming round, but honestly what the hell would civilians be doing in the middle of a fight between a tank and RPG teams?!

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Of course, those MiGs are hopeless in going vertical simply because they don't have the power. Read an interview by a flight sim site (no, it is not SimHQ or Frugal's) with an actual Rhino driver (F-4 pilot), and he mentioned what usually happens in combat in Vietnam.

Well the vertical is where the modern fight is, turning fast really means shit if the other guy has a 500 mile per hour speed advantage...

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Of course, all it takes for the MiG to survive is a hard turn (even then it is debatable). RoE has been the biggest enemy to employing BVR missiles (that was the same thing that stopped Tomcats from employing the Phoenix the way they intended, if ever...then again, even if they did, they miss).

The AIM-54 was really a highly specialized weapon I have no doubt it would have been great for knocking Russian bombers out of the sky, but I also have no doubt it was an utter waste of space against anything that could pull more then two G...

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And yes, the Brits almost deleted the gun out of the Typhoon. And they would be made the jokers again.

They wanted to replace it with a block of concrete, but the plane had been balanced for the gun and fixing it to fly without would have cost more then just buying the damn cannons. So they bought the cannons, but not ammo. Stories like this make me feel better about our own procurement system really...

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And also, the Tomcat never really went into air-to-air combat in the Gulf War (that was when plans to give it some serious mud-moving capabilities were given the green light).

That was mainly because the Air Force was being bullies and wanted the glory.

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I think we should go back to topic on creating characters etc. The problem I have is which way I should go for one of the major supporting characters (because the main characters would always be the Witches, right?), which is:

1. A pilot (more like Naval Aviator) plus a RIO in the Liberion Navy. The problem with such an implementation is that they would be pretty much stuck with the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, except if we have an in-story reason to bring back F-14D Super Tomcats into active duty (even at the end of the fic the JSF would not be ready for duty). The Super Tomcats would also serve as the typical 'mid-series upgrade'.

This is an AU to modern earth you could just say it simply never went out of service. Frankly given the dealys with the JSF if the navy could have kept it's F-14s I think it would have. All you really need to do is tweak it so that some dumbass doesn't destroy all the machining tools to allow continued production of spare parts and I bet you'd still have Tomcats today.

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2. The same combo (except that it is pilot + WSO) in the Liberion Air Force, flying the F-15E Strike Eagle. The problem is that for most of the fic, they would pretty much be using the same thing (don't ask me to put them into the F-22), and it doesn't offer any real challenge...unless, we can be daring enough to implement some of the lessons learned from the F-15 ACTIVE program, including throwing in the thrust vectoring capability (the canards would not make their appearance though) as a major upgrade, basically they fly the same thing but continuously upgraded to no end.

This would work too.

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And no, they would not fly superplanes (ala Ace Combat), although rivals on the same side might.

Ahh but super planes are fun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kct

That is the reason the main supporting guys for the girls in my fic would be flying actual mud-movers (hence the use of a Strike Eagle or a Super Tomcat), rather than strain the girls with something they can't do (although they can do things like tagging targets with lasers and the like, and send a Paveway into the @$$ of the target).

Indeed a low and slow witch would make a excellent FAC acutally.

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Of course, SEAD guys likes to put things in HARM's way.

That pun was horrible.

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However, here are some entries I've made for the specifications of the planes the characters might use or encounter (most of them are still drafts). I'm using the MAHQ-style formatting for them, for now. Some of their specs are fictional at best.

The reason the ramjet existed is because I wanted the Super Tomcats to follow the Super Sylphs seen in Yukikaze very closely. They would share similar mission scopes, despite more work would be given to the Super Tomcats as mud-movers and the like.

I still have no idea what China is called in the SW-verse though. However, some of the information could be left vague, as to mirror the real-life difficulty in obtaining information about the capabilities of the Chinese military, something even the ones in the alternate universe would face due to the secretive nature of the Chinese.

The POV I'm doing for the first "season" is will be a side-story to the anime, so the bullets still work, the stuff that has been learnt hasn't been learnt yet and it allows me to start at a lower level to build up in future seasons. This means using stuff that no longer works when they still work, then as the Neuroi catch up, alter stuff as they go along. Hence why the persistence on using a minigun.

Slight problem: There was no Minigun in world war II. Ever.

Quote:

Originally Posted by selkirk

Anyway, the Strike Witches take up a different role compared to normal aircraft in the 'verse. In book 3, the Independent Volunteer Squadron goes on a SEAD mission prior to a tactical bombing run, while 1st Squadron provides air cover for the actual bomber. Witches simply can't carry anywhere near the load of an actual bomber plane... they're just girls, not mechs. Sure, they can carry some heavier weaponry, but not that heavy. IMHO giving them hardpoints for missiles and heavy weapon support braces makes it more like Sky Girls, or real mecha, not Strike Witches.

Well we should keep in mind for people who are making future witches that while them hauling loads like a B-52 seems highly unlikely some improvements in load bearing capacity and speed carrying said load are to be expected.