I see you got frustrated, desperately searched the internet for your favorite phrase "evolution is a fraud," found a Christian anti-science propaganda website, and direct quoted a bit of nonsense. Had you spent a few more minutes researching the full story behind what you blindly copied and pasted, you'd have quickly seen through the distortions, lies, and bullshit presented by the ignorant creationists. You have not found a smoking gun. You have not found anything at all.

So, to recap:

1. When asked for specific objections to evolutionary theory, Fellows provides vague assertions demonstrating a clear lack of fundamental knowledge of what evolutionary theory is about in the first place.

2. When pointed in the direction of a primer on evolutionary theory, Fellows gets hung up on the first page because the entire fossil record and every laboratory experiment isn't cited in a fucking barely-skim-the-surface-intro-let's-get-you-up-to-speed-with-the-very-very-very-basics-of-evolution website.

3. When the sheer ridiculousness of Fellows objections are laid out in front of him, he takes offense, seeks refuge with the other ignorant creationists, and randomly posts a very non-sequitur and thoroughly debunked (if one would bother to research it for all of 2 minutes) nonsensical gotcha argument against evolution.

And creationists wonder why they are ridiculed.

So to recap the recap, BR shouts about how the site is ridiculous and BS, says how simple it would be to find evidence to debunk what was posted and fails to post any of it. Then he ridicules the person for their religious beliefs and following on, Tonton jumps in and smears all other religious people as well with more ridiculous assertions. And he and BR wonder why these conversations go on and on.

NoahJ"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi

Had we not been able to take direct measurements and prove otherwise, Fellowship would be fighting tooth and nail that the sun revolves around the Earth. Seriously, whenever in history Christians have gone against science, be it astronomy, geology, anatomy... they have been wrong every time. Obviously, faith cannot be relied upon to find truth.

tonton I still like you dude despite when you stoop to these kinds of statements. It really seems to me that those who love evolution the loudest are the ones who despise Christians the loudest.

It is a pattern that is simple to see play out. Christopher Hitchens comes to mind, Dawkins and all of the BR's of the world.

These people all seem to have a hatred that drives them. And they want everyone else to be haters as well. These people never waste an opportunity to share their hatred.

Fellows

May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

So to recap the recap, BR shouts about how the site is ridiculous and BS, says how simple it would be to find evidence to debunk what was posted and fails to post any of it. Then he ridicules the person for their religious beliefs and following on, Tonton jumps in and smears all other religious people as well with more ridiculous assertions. And he and BR wonder why these conversations go on and on.

Oh come now. Fellows can't get two sentences into a website explaining the overview of what evolution is all about without attempting to pick it apart word by word. And yet, he has no problem dumping an unattributed block of text spouting lies and bullshit without even bothering to check on its veracity (or lack thereof).

Fellows applies a different standard of evidence for evolution than for the (incorrect) rebuttals.

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” -Sagan

tonton I still like you dude despite when you stoop to these kinds of statements. It really seems to me that those who love evolution the loudest are the ones who despise Christians the loudest.

It is a pattern that is simple to see play out. Christopher Hitchens comes to mind, Dawkins and all of the BR's of the world.

These people all seem to have a hatred that drives them. And they want everyone else to be haters as well. These people never waste an opportunity to share their hatred.

Fellows

Honestly, ther's no hatred involved. But there's definitely an exasperation at closed-mindedness.

You've got to admit, Fellowship, that science itself is able to evolve, and when something believed in science is found to be incorrect, the scientific community rejoices in such confirmation and makes the appropriate changes with enthusiasm and excitement. Religion is exactly the opposite.

Historically, Christians have strongly opposed many areas of solid science. Round Earth, solar centrism, anatomy, surgery, medicine, interracial relations... And in each of these areas Christians were proved wrong. In the present day the great majority of Christians are fighting birth control and freedom of sexual identity, and you disagree with them on this, at least to a certain extent.

You really have to admit that Christians' track record has not been the best.

I just don't understand why you've sadly picked up evolution as your crusade, you're unclear on the basic principles, and you ignore mountains of science because of a few details you find questionable. I don't hate that about you or about Christians, but it is something I would like to see evolve.

Fuck it. I'll say it. I hate childhood indoctrination of religious thought. It stunts the development of critical thinking skills that would allow grownups to let go of their imaginary friends, in whose names they trample the rights of individuals who are different and impede the march of scientific and social progress. It's abhorrent.

The result is someone who could not put together a coherent scientific argument to save his life and raises the next generation of the scientifically illiterate. In day to day life, I'm sure that this person is perfectly wonderful and generous and kind. But that isn't enough to balance out espousing a vile anti-intellectual agenda.

The most patriotic thing anyone can do would be to embrace science and not allow this country to get left in the dust. It may already be too late. I guess the long run doesn't matter to 40% of Americans who think that their invisible friend will return and destroy the planet within their lifetimes. Fucking idiots.

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” -Sagan

Honestly, ther's no hatred involved. But there's definitely an exasperation at closed-mindedness.

What you call exasperation seems to involve a lot of actions that resemble hatred.

Quote:

You've got to admit, Fellowship, that science itself is able to evolve, and when something believed in science is found to be incorrect, the scientific community rejoices in such confirmation and makes the appropriate changes with enthusiasm and excitement. Religion is exactly the opposite.

Science is a human endeavor and suffers from human failings. There have certainly been arguments about scientific theories and proponents of each that do not involve enthusiasm and excitement with regard to change. You honestly think that if a scientist or group has spent their entire lifetime pursuing a solution, theorem or endeavor and has the entire thing upended by a competing theory or solution that they just applaud, allow themselves to move from the top to the bottom of expertise and understanding and smile at that?

You'd be wrong, dead wrong, in presuming that.

Quote:

Historically, Christians have strongly opposed many areas of solid science. Round Earth, solar centrism, anatomy, surgery, medicine, interracial relations... And in each of these areas Christians were proved wrong. In the present day the great majority of Christians are fighting birth control and freedom of sexual identity, and you disagree with them on this, at least to a certain extent.

While there have been gains in some areas, gains are not always progress and science alone is not fit to judge progress. Science has also given us per your reasoning global warming, the atom bomb, nuclear accidents, chemicals and pesticides that cause all manner of harm, pollution, overpopulation, etc.

Quote:

You really have to admit that Christians' track record has not been the best.

The Christian track record, like the scientific and human track record is a mixed blessing.

Quote:

I just don't understand why you've sadly picked up evolution as your crusade, you're unclear on the basic principles, and you ignore mountains of science because of a few details you find questionable. I don't hate that about you or about Christians, but it is something I would like to see evolve.

Try removing the plank from your eye before complaining about the splinter.

Fuck it. I'll say it. I hate childhood indoctrination of religious thought. It stunts the development of critical thinking skills that would allow grownups to let go of their imaginary friends, in whose names they trample the rights of individuals who are different and impede the march of scientific and social progress. It's abhorrent.

The result is someone who could not put together a coherent scientific argument to save his life and raises the next generation of the scientifically illiterate. In day to day life, I'm sure that this person is perfectly wonderful and generous and kind. But that isn't enough to balance out espousing a vile anti-intellectual agenda.

The most patriotic thing anyone can do would be to embrace science and not allow this country to get left in the dust. It may already be too late. I guess the long run doesn't matter to 40% of Americans who think that their invisible friend will return and destroy the planet within their lifetimes. Fucking idiots.

Your biases, prejudices and caricatures (not to mention your self-confessed hatred and apparent anger and bitterness) have become hackneyed and tiresome. Maybe you need to chillax and realize you can't control others (nor should you try)...and realize that just maybe you don't have all the answers.

I just don't understand why you've sadly picked up evolution as your crusade,

Really it is not my crusade. My thing is live and let live. Nobody has to be a Christian nor would I ever pressure them to be as I think God is able to work in peoples lives. I am not going to kill you if you don't become a Christian. I am a pretty easy going type and I can stand it that there are evolutionists out there who I may disagree with. It does not ruin my day. I do however contest it and have fun with it. I will not hold back with my questioning of evolution.

What I don't think you know about me personally is that I am very curious, thoughtful and critical about my very faith as well. I don't trust anyone simply due to affiliation and label. I have seen many bad things done in the name of Christianity as I have seen with regard with the frauds that evolution has seen in the name of science.

I am universal in my pursuit of Truth. I am very critical. More than you or BR give me credit for.

Fellows

May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

If only you'd question the creationist (flawed and disproven) arguments against evolution with the same zeal as you do with evolution itself, maybe you could call yourself critical. Frankly, you have demonstrated such a fundamental lack of understanding with regard to what the theorum of evolution is or claims that you don't have the intellectual standing to question it. Before you can attempt to find flaws, you better first understand what the fuck evolution is all about in the first place.

I recommend starting here. I also recommend you do your best to suppress the backfire effect you will undoubtedly feel.

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” -Sagan

I'm 37 minutes into a youtube video of one of his lectures. He's not an asshole. There is no altar of evolution. Your language is so ridiculous.

I love it though. Searching google for Jerry Coyne does not pop that letter up on the front page. You had to actively search for something negative about him in order to find it. Shocking. Shocking you would do such a thing.

And that letter is such drivel. Wow. That Rabbi takes offense over Coyne implying that he expects more from Jews than Christians and somehow turns it into a Nazi thing.

Ooh, figured out your probable search term: jerry coyne atheist. The stupid letter you linked is the 5th result. Now, why on Earth do you need to search for that? Your ugly bias is showing. And before you make some snarky comment about my original idea that you searched for something negative...to YOU, atheism IS negative. So, even though I don't hold that same view, you certainly do. In your eyes, you were digging up dirt on the guy.

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” -Sagan

Searching google for Jerry Coyne does not pop that letter up on the front page. You had to actively search for something negative about him in order to find it. Shocking. Shocking you would do such a thing.

Before you get too excited... Ohh wait, too late for that it appears...

I don't use Google genious.

And according to you I am to get all of my information from the first page results of Google Search? If I actually research beyond that you get mad, upset and frustrated. I think you need to live and let live BR. You should let people do their own research and if they do it differently than yourself so be it. Chill for goodness sake. Not everybody gets their information from Google. Let alone the first page results of ANY search engine.

Fellows

May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Honestly, ther's no hatred involved. But there's definitely an exasperation at closed-mindedness.

You've got to admit, Fellowship, that science itself is able to evolve, and when something believed in science is found to be incorrect, the scientific community rejoices in such confirmation and makes the appropriate changes with enthusiasm and excitement. Religion is exactly the opposite.

Sure, unless it's climate science.

Quote:

Historically, Christians have strongly opposed many areas of solid science. Round Earth, solar centrism, anatomy, surgery, medicine, interracial relations... And in each of these areas Christians were proved wrong. In the present day the great majority of Christians are fighting birth control and freedom of sexual identity, and you disagree with them on this, at least to a certain extent.

Here again I think you're using "Christian" with "Catholic" in many ways. I disagree that the "great majority" of Christians oppose birth control. As for "freedom of sexual identity," the problem here is that like the very Christians you are attacking, you are absolutely convinced you hold the moral high ground on the issue. The implication is that those who oppose gay marriage oppose the freedom of gays to be themselves. This is often not the case.

Quote:

You really have to admit that Christians' track record has not been the best.

Is Islam's better? Judaism?

Quote:

I just don't understand why you've sadly picked up evolution as your crusade,

Nice.

Quote:

you're unclear on the basic principles, and you ignore mountains of science because of a few details you find questionable. I don't hate that about you or about Christians, but it is something I would like to see evolve.

Well done, again. Seriously though, you haven't shown he's ignoring mountains of science. What you have done is make some statements that were instantly disapproved. And the questions he's asking are important, as well as unanswered by science.

Now don't get me wrong...while I have many of the same questions, I do not reach the same conclusion Fellows does. I think there is clearly enough scientific evidence to support evolution. But I also think there are enough questions and "oddities" (for lack of a better term) to indicate that an intelligent designer was behind it. That's that conclusion I've drawn, though I realize others may differ. This issue I see is that you cannot accept someone drawing a different conclusion. He must be stupid, ignorant, ill-informed, brainwashed or lying to himself by "ignoring" evidence. That seems to be what you're saying...no strawman intended.

As I believe I've stated before, this does not surprise me. You and many others here have done the same on the issue of anthropogenic global warming. I've looked at the same data, and I've reached a different conclusion. But that's just not acceptable. Nor is that acceptable when we discuss something like alleviating poverty or delivering better healthcare. Anyone that differs from the liberal dogma of handing out money to those that make less as well as providing single-payer healthcare is denounced as poor-hating, greedy, stupid, ignorant, brainwashed and/or corrupt. It's unfathomable to you that there is another way.

I can only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look good either.

As I believe I've stated before, this does not surprise me. You and many others here have done the same on the issue of anthropogenic global warming. I've looked at the same data, and I've reached a different conclusion. But that's just not acceptable. Nor is that acceptable when we discuss something like alleviating poverty or delivering better healthcare. Anyone that differs from the liberal dogma of handing out money to those that make less as well as providing single-payer healthcare is denounced as poor-hating, greedy, stupid, ignorant, brainwashed and/or corrupt. It's unfathomable to you that there is another way.

Well said! I call this Liberal fundamentalism. It is dogmatic and rigid to the core.

Fellows

May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Well said! I call this Liberal fundamentalism. It is dogmatic and rigid to the core.

Fellows

Completely agreed. I used to call it Liberal Fascism. I like Liberal Fundamentalism better. And really, Fellows, they do this on almost every issue. Liberals are always smarter, more informed and more compassionate than conservatives. Liberals are never racist, even when they make obviously racist comments. Why? Because their hearts are in the right place, of course? Liberals sex lives have nothing to do with their office, even when they lie through their teeth. But conservatives? They're hypocrites! (It's a clever little trick they've played there...not having any morals means one is never accused of moral hypocrisy!). Liberals are never sexist, even though they assail women with whom they disagree politically---and not because they disagree with them on politics, but because they represent women who don't conform to the Liberal Fundie image. Liberals always support freedom of speech, unless it's someone that wants to say a prayer or wants to espouse conservative opinion--then the First Amendment prevents them from doing so, even though it was created for exactly the opposite purpose. The list goes on.

I can count on one hand the number of discussions I've had with liberals that are issue-centered. In the vast majority cases they begin to make ad-hominem arguments almost immediately. One exception is a good friend of mine...a committed Democrat. I disagree with her on most issues, but we have good discussions and understand each other's points. More importantly, there is no "gotcha" involved. We realize that supporting a particular candidate or person does not mean we agree with each of that person's (or group's) positions (examples: She is an NPR listener, but thinks the decision to fire Juan Williams was completely wrong. I am a Romney supporter, but I disagree with his position on a Constitutional Amendment defining marriage as between a man and a woman).

I can only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look good either.