Winkel, Robert

K-25 Oral History Interview
Date: 3/10/05
Interviewee: Robert Winkel
Interviewer: Connie Callan
[1:00:10]
[Crew Talk]
Callan, C.: Can I ask you to state your name and spell your name so that we know how to pronounce your name?
Winkel, R.: My name is Robert August Winkel. W-I-N-K-E-L.
Callan, C.: Now, could you tell us what you actually did at K-25?
Winkel, R.: Well the original startup -- my job was to train the group that followed behind construction. As construction turned over to a unit to Carbide, my job was to ascertain it was ready for operation. And mainly that’s what my job was, and to train the crews to do the job.
Callan, C.: Well, let me just say that, just for the record, I’m Connie Callan and I am the interviewer, and this March 9th 05. Okay. We are going to start with just -- there’s a grouping of questions and the first grouping is your place of origin. So, we’re going to start with asking you about where you were born and if you want to elaborate a bit about where that was.
[02:17]
Winkel, R.: I was born in St. Louis, Missouri in 1914, December 4th, which would make me almost going on 91. And went to school there in University City High School. I have an honorary degree from (indiscernible) in management and engineering and that was it.
Callan, C.: I didn’t mean to speak over that [laughs]. Okay, where were you living prior to coming to K-25?
Winkel, R.: Where was I living? Uh, I was living in -- let’s see, where was I living then? I -- I was living in Bridgeport, Connecticut and I had joined the CBs, it was waiting to be shipped and I was called by John Maroon, which was a recruiter for Carbide, which I knew from working in a TNT plant in Niagara Falls. He asked me if I was interested in this project and I said, "Well, I’m interested." But I said I’m already committed. He said, "There will be a young man on a bicycle and will come by and tell you where to go and when you are supposed to be there."
[1:04:11]
And I said, Fine. I didn’t believe it. But, the following day he was there and I was released from my draft board and was told to report immediately to New York City, seventh floor of the Woolworth building as soon as I could get there. And that’s where I went. And from there, why, once I got to New York, why, I was given a place to stay at 72nd and Riverside Drive, seventh floor, and I was assigned a desk and a piece of paper and a pencil. I sat there for, oh, three or four days and finally I -- this man was running back and forth, which was Clark Center, and I told him, I said, "Look, I want something to do or I want out of here." He said, "I got something for you to do." So, my job from there on was to visit all the vendors that were making our equipment and to tool it. In other words, I had to go in, spend time on the assembly line, observe the tooling and techniques for assembly and disassembly, write it down, because I was going to have to teach this to the crew that was going to maintain this equipment in the plant.
[1:05:51]
That was what my problem was. It was very, very interesting. I met some interesting people and -- but I'd visit Allis Chalmers and Carrier and Chrysler and then I was finally shipped to -- from New York to K-25. My job when I got to K-25 was to set up a crew and train 'em, which meant I had to set up a training school with the equipment that we were going to maintain in there. So -- because the people that we were given to train were not all mechanics because all mechanics already had jobs, and it was quite a job to train these people. In some cases we had to train them in bringing down indicators and teaching them fractions because all the good people in this area had been hired by Y-12 or the lab, which was already running. There was nobody in this area that you could hire. So all the people that we had in startup of K-25 came from other places, other states from around here. We had interviews -- I did some of the interviewing in Chicago and whatnot.
[1:07:35]
We had interviewers all over. And-- but as we got the crews together -- the other thing was rather unusual; we never got to interview people which we were going to work. Those people were sent down to us in the field and we took them from there and started training them and I had to follow behind construction. When construction turned over a unit to Carbide, I had to go through that unit to satisfy ourselves that it was ready to go and ready to start because a lot of times we'd find flaws in what construction had failed to do and what they should have done. And, also, we had to move the vacuum test equipment, which was -- all of the vacuum test recruits were women. We had women all over the place. In the control room, most of them were women. And, it was quite a job from the standpoint of having so many people that were new. This was a new industry in which we didn't have any experience as to what it was going to take to maintain it. We had to feel our way along. We didn't know the life of the equipment, how long it was going to last, or what was the problems with it.
[1:09:17]
So, once I got started, I started going through building by building and behind every four or five buildings I would leave off a supervisor and a crew to maintain it. And I went all the way around the unit that way.
Callan, C.: This is really interesting. You're showing a different perspective than I've heard. What was your back -- you said the selection process, you know, they, they selected you and told you to show up at that Woolworth building -- what was your background? What was your work background?
Winkel, R.: Well, my work background was in construction. I was -- worked -- where I met John Maroon was in Niagara Falls and I was working for chemical construction and we were putting up a TNT plant. That's where I met him and knew him and he knew my background and so that's one of the reasons why he called me.
[1:10:26]
Callan, C.: Well, it looks like he selected the right person for the job. Let's go on to educational background.
Winkel, R.: Education? I, I --
Callan, C.: Let's go on to -- we're going to start with just high school.
Winkel, R.: Yeah.
Callan, C.: Tell us what high school you went to and where it was.
Winkel, R.: Where was it?
Callan, C.: Where was your high school?
Winkel, R.: University City. St. Louis.
Callan, C.: And, I think you mentioned this, but your college and your degrees you earned?
Winkel, R.: It was honorary. And the reason -- I had done a lot of work with Rolla University and had been up there many times and hiring engineers and I knew a lot of the people.
[1:11:20]
Callan, C.: Let's consider -- let me see. Family? Where your family came from originally?
Winkel, R.: German. We're German -- all german background. My mother and dad. We're not from Germany, but we all are German descendant.
Callan, C.: Now we're going into the group which is working at K-25. When you talked some about it -- I mean, see, you've already kind of answered this unless you want to say a few more words about it, which is why did you come to work at K-25? What attracted you here? How did you hear about it? I think you kind of said that unless you want to say it in a different way.
Winkel, R.: Well, I didn't know much about it, frankly. Uh, when I was in New York, we were told to not discuss anything. Uh, of course, most of us were in the dark as to what we were gonna do. And we knew nothing about the product -- the plant. The people in the plant used to say, "Well, we're making gum bubble. And, because, everything was coming in but nothing going out. And a lot of the people in the plant did not know what was going on.
[1:12:44]
Callan, C.: Well, what were your first recollections when you came to K-25? Do you remember the first day or week that you came here, what it was like?
Winkel, R.: Well, when I first came to K-25 I was not even -- did not even have a K-25 badge. And my badge number is somewhere in the 300 and I had one -- my first badge was under that. It was 200 and but it was -- the streets were muddy. You took off your shoes and socks to cross the street because there was mud up to your ankles. The whole town was full of equipment. The town was being built. The heavy equipment was everywhere. Houses were coming in on trailers. And thousands of people. And a shortage of everything. And, it was a lot different from New York. But, um, we had -- and the other thing is, you had to make your own fun here, because there was nothing to do. So, we manned together and we would have barbecues and weekends and whatnot.
[1:14:10]
And most of us worked around the clock. I worked around -- I was two years before I had vacation. And it was, uh – the people all turned to and it was something that I was very proud of -- they all worked and no complaint. And there was a lack of knowledge, but they were willing learners and we accomplished a lot.
Callan, C.: Well, what exact day and year did you come to K-25? Do you remember?
Winkel, R.: I don't remember.
Callan, C.: You don't remember? About the year? Do you remember about the year?
Winkel, R.: I think it was the turn -- I think it was probably around Christmas or there and somewhere around in there.
Callan, C.: Let me see. As far as your years of working at K-25, do you remember when you started, when you ended, did you transfer to Y-12 or any of --
Winkel, R.: No.
[1:15:35]
Callan, C.: No? How many years did you work there? From when to when, do you think?
Winkel, R.: Oh how many years was I with Carbide? Almost forty.
Callan, C.: And where you at K-25 --
Winkel, R.: No.
Callan, C.: -- that whole time?
Winkel, R.: I was with K-25 -- after I got through with starting the U, we -- Carbide was takin’ over from JA Jones different facilities. They took over the garage and I was given the garage to run. And then I was given the job of, of um, designing a new garage because the garage of JA Jones' was temporary. So I designed a new garage, which we moved into. And, all the rest of the plants Y, K, uh -- Paducah and Portsmouth garages the same as the one I designed. And uh, but then I -- in 1950 -- and also, I was given all maintenance of the cascade plus the garage to run. And then in '50 I was transferred to Paducah and I was given -- I became assistant plant manager and then became plant manager.
[1:17:06]
Then in '72 I was transferred back to K-25 to run K-25. And in '80 I retired.
Callan, C.: [Laughs] What a career. If, if people were -- when people would inquire what you were doing at K-25, what you tell the general population of Oak Ridge what you did there?
Winkel, R.: What did I tell 'em?
Callan, C.: Yeah. What would you tell them?
Winkel, R.: I didn't tell 'em anything.
Callan, C.: You wouldn't even make up a story?
Winkel, R.: No. I just said -- you mean before people knew what we were doing? I just said, well, I said I don't know. I said we're making a product and that's it. I just didn't discuss it. We very --
Callan, C.: I'm sorry. Is that getting on your -- My -- [laughs]. Okay. Go on.
Winkel, R.: Yeah, it was a no-no. You just didn't discuss it.
[1:18:16]
Callan, C.: I just -- people have told me stories of silly things that they said they made there --
Winkel, R.: Well, a lot of the mechanics says we're making bubble gum and whatever.
Callan, C.: What were your most vivid recollections of the time you spent, you know, managing K-25?
Winkel, R.: Well I met a lot of nice people and I enjoyed my job, what I was doing. It was very challenging and we did a lot of new things that had never been done before. And we-- also, we did not know all the hazards we were being faced with.
Callan, C.: What did you like most -- I'm gonna ask you two questions. What did you like most and what did you like least? So, we're gonna start --
Winkel, R.: What did I like what?
[1:19:24]
Callan, C.: Least -- about working at K-25. So, start out with what did you like most?
Winkel, R.: Well, I don't know. I, I looked forward to every day I come to work because it was so challenging. There were so many different things, and which we'd never been exposed to. Ways to do things and problems -- people problems and we had people that just weren't fit for the job, which we had to turn loose. And it was just -- I don't know. I can't say that I hated to come to work, but I always looked forward to coming to work.
Callan, C.: Talk about some of the people that you did have to let go. What require -- what things made it so that they just couldn't deal with working there?
Winkel, R.: Well, the main thing where the problem started there, which I did not like, is we were not allowed to interview the people we were going to work with. Uh, I said I needed so many milrights and they were sent down to me and most of 'em were not milrights or not mechanics. And so we had to take 'em and do the best we could with 'em and train 'em and some of 'em were not trainable and we had to turn loose of 'em.
[1:21:09]
Callan, C.: Hmm.
Winkel, R.: That was a problem.
Callan, C.: I can imagine. [laughs] Do you know why they wouldn't let you interview them?
Winkel, R.: Huh?
Callan, C.: Why would they not let you interview them? I guess that you don't know.
Winkel, R.: That was the way things were done.
Callan, C.: What did you dislike most about working at K-25?
Winkel, R.: Not being able to interview the people you were working with.
Callan, C.: Okay. Now we're going to talk about working conditions and your work environment. So, let's talk about -- how did people communicate to each other, fellow workers, in a secret facility?
[1:21:55]
Winkel, R.: Well, there was nothing secret discussed. Because the mechanics didn't know what was classified and what wasn't classified and they were told to keep their mouth shut about what they were doing and where they were working. That's as simple as it is.
Callan, C.: And, since everything was secret, how did people, as well as yourself, communicate with family and friends?
Winkel, R.: How did you -- you didn't communicate. You didn't discuss what you were doing.
Callan, C.: What were the physical working conditions like at the facility?
Winkel, R.: Uh, well, my office was on the cell floor and it was hot. Sweat used to run off my elbow when I was making out reports. My secretary used to sweat. There was no air conditioning. The only air condition in the plant was in the -- where they had the computer going. And everybody -- nobody had any air conditioning. With the cells running and it was hot.
[1:23:16]
Callan, C.: Let me see. What rules were really important to follow?
Winkel, R.: What was what?
Callan, C.: Rules. What were the rules that were very important that you had to follow?
Winkel, R.: Well there -- a lot of the rules we had to make. Security rules, which we all knew, um, and then -- safety. We changed the rules as we ran along -- I tell you one of the problems that we had. We were working on a cell and operations inadvertently started, which was a deadly hazard because all these people working around this equipment and it's starting up. And so I came up with the idea and got it approved that the main breaker that started the cell -- I put my lock on it so that nobody could start that cell until I turned loose of it. For safety. And we made our safety rules as we went along because a lot of the hazards we didn't know.
[1:24:36]
Callan, C.: Let's see. What were your coworkers like and would you say everyone pulled their own weight?
Winkel, R.: Uh, we were very -- the attitude of people in those days was a lot different than it is today. I mean, they were anxious to do what was -- the work and turned to -- and we didn't have hardly any slackers. I mean, they did not mind working overtime and there was a lot of it. Uh --
Callan, C.: Okay. Now we're going to talk about health, health issues. What kinds of health facilities were available at Oak Ridge and K-25?
Winkel, R.: Well, um, construction would house -- a lot of people were housed in hutment areas. Now, hutment area was a shack with four people in it with screened insides where you opened up for ventilation. The stove is centered sitting in sand. That was -- there were hundreds of 'em. Dormitories in town -- they was hundreds of women in town and these dormitories were all women and they was dormitories with men. But I'd say the most of it, the dormitories were full of women.
[1:26:33]
I was assigned a house eventually and because they was still being built. Now, the dormitories were the first things that they finished and built. But the houses were the last. So, as they came available, why, people were put in 'em. And, [coughs] that's the way the rules were of the day. The top supervision got first call and then on down the line.
Callan, C.: Okay. Did you have a nice house there?
Winkel, R.: Yeah. I had a nice little house.
Callan, C.: Was there much emphasis that they company had on safety and was your health regularly monitored? What kind of health monitoring did they do and did you ever get hurt at K-25?
Winkel, R.: No. I never was hurt. We -- our safety department had to grow the way we grew. They did not know all the problems that were going to have to be addressed. And, as they came up they were addressed. And the rules of the road were created. This was all new. Nobody had ever done it before. So, how you going to put rules on something that nobody knows anything about?
[1:28:07]
Callan, C.: I think we're ready to change tapes. He just gave me the sign. So, we're going on --
[End of Tape 1, Begin Tape 2]
[2:00:09]
Winkel, R.: We did not know and was not interested in what Y-12 was doing or the lab.
Callan, C.: Okay. Let's start because we finally got you up. Okay.
Winkel, R.: Because we had all we could handle. We just weren't interested in it. Later on, when we got an operation, I'd have people from the lab come over and explain to us what they were doing. And eventually, why we learned what Y-12 was doing.
[2:00:55]
Callan, C.: Let me see. I think -- let's talk about the Manhattan period and we've got those as the years between '43 to '45. And to help your recollection, let's talk about -- during the war, did you have any idea what the enriched uranium 235 you were separating would be used for?
Winkel, R.: Eventually I did. I was briefed.
Callan, C.: And how did you link what you were doing with the war effort and when -- the dropping of the atomic bomb on August 6, 1945 -- do you remember that day?
Winkel, R.: Um-hmm.
Callan, C.: And did you know that you all had a great part in that?
Winkel, R.: Yeah. We -- after I was made aware of it, I knew the urgency of getting things done and, but, we could only go as fast as construction because we were -- they were ahead of us and as they turned stuff over to us -- but see, Carbide's fee was based on when we got the cell and we had it running. So, they was a lot of push to get that unit on stream and get it running.
[2:02:17]
We worked a lot of overtime and a lot of weekends. I can remember weekend after weekend being out working because we had things that were about to bust and we had to take care of 'em.
Callan, C.: What was your reaction on August 6th with the news of the atomic bomb? Do you remember that day?
Winkel, R.: Well, I remember it, but I, um, was sort of glad that it happened.
Callan, C.: Well, anything -- I guess we're trying to -- we've gone through the whole Manhattan period pretty quickly. Key newspaper articles? Reactions to news? Nothing you recall during that period?
Winkel, R.: No.
Callan, C.: Let's go on to the post Manhattan project transitional recollections. So, we're talking about the years 1945 through 1948. Let me see -- how do you think history will view the Manhattan project and its outcome?
[2:03:36]
Winkel, R.: How do I look at history? Well I think that we should preserve parts of K-25 for history because there was so much went into that plant and blood and sweat and tears that I think that for people's brought up to date on what it looked like and what some of the problems were. Some of those shells oughta be kept rather than destroyed. Whether that's going to be, I don’t know.
Callan, C.: Well, I think what was done there is --
Winkel, R.: Huh?
Callan, C.: What we're trying to capture is what was done in that facility in your recollections, which is really important also, as well as the facility. But, could you explain -- are you familiar with the word Expansion Program and what kind of work started during those years?
Winkel, R.: Well, we had upgrading programs where the equipment was upgraded and changes made to increase production. And that's what the upgrading programs were. And redesigned some of the equipment to make is more efficient. And it was field changes and piping and so forth and so forth. And maintenance was given the job to do it. And that was it.
[2:05:28]
Callan, C.: Now we're going into the Cold War era, which is from 1948 to 1964, around. Do you remember -- we're kind of -- what was being done at the facility after the Manhattan project?
Winkel, R.: See, I was gone then.
Callan, C.: You were? Oh, I'm sorry. So we should --
Winkel, R.: Yeah. I left in '50.
Callan, C.: Okay. Let's go on to the next page. Just job specific, at the K-25, did you want to elaborate on the kinds of jobs you did?
Winkel, R.: Do what now?
[2:06:15]
Callan, C.: The kinds of jobs you did at K-25? Where they all maintenance related and supervisory?
Winkel, R.: Well, all the job I had was maintenance; strictly maintenance, and that's what the job was.
Callan, C.: Let me see. What was your most challenging assignment as an individual or as a member of a group?
Winkel, R.: Hmm. Well, one of the hardest things was -- when we started up in setting up that training school and getting the equipment in there so that the people that we were hiring and training had the equipment that was -- they were gonna work on there to train with. And a lot of people that had no experience in maintenance didn't see any reason why we should have it. And lack of knowledge and we had our Canfield school and nuclear knowledge, we called it, in which Canfield, which is still alive, taught decimals and how to read dial indicators and so forth, and micrometers. And, um --
[2:07:54]
Callan, C.: What kind of equipment? Can you describe the equipment by name that you --
Winkel, R.: We had a lot of centrifugal compressors. Hundreds of 'em.
Callan, C.: And that's what you maintained?
Winkel, R.: Um-hmm. That and well the (indiscernible) that went with it.
Callan, C.: Now, were you there during the period when -- the construction of K-25?
Winkel, R.: Huh?
Callan, C.: Were you these during the construction of K-25?
Winkel, R.: Well, I mean, the construction -- yes. I was there because the construction was ahead of me. They were still building cells that we were going to -- eventually be turned over to us. See, I started at the top of the U and worked all the way around the U, and the construction was always ahead of me.
[2:08:59]
In fact, the other side of the U, they were still putting in depressors and equipment.
Callan, C.: Well, let me ask you some of these questions and if you can answer them -- what were your recollections of K-25, of why K-25 was chosen to be constructed where it was, and how were materials transported to the site, what difficulties were encountered in accomplishing construction of the facility? Do you remember any of that?
Winkel, R.: I -- No.
Callan, C.: So we haven't yet found anyone in the construction, so since you said --
Winkel, R.: I wasn't in construction.
Callan, C.: I know you -- I just am kind of -- did people notice any activity. How quickly? Do you know why the facility was named K-25? Do you know?
Winkel, R.: No.
[2:09:57]
Callan, C.: Can you compare the equipment that you had then to the equipment of today a bit?
Winkel, R.: Well, it's -- it was all different. Even today the equipment is not like what we have today. It's -- it was totally different. I don't know of any facility that's anything like it.
Callan, C.: You can't compare it to any other facility?
Winkel, R.: Not anywhere near like it.
Callan, C.: Were there any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers and the unions? Did you ever recall when you worked there?
Winkel, R.: You mean, like a conference?
Callan, C.: Conflicts. You know --
Winkel, R.: No, I mean, we-- I had no problems with the union whatsoever because I'd worked with union people before that and I think that if you treat people right and try to do the right thing by 'em and work with 'em, that's part of the problem today with the union, uh -- a lot of the people do not know what the common worker goes through. That's part of the problem. And working with these people I knew what they were going through because I was going through with 'em. And I was just as interested in correcting things that they were concerned with because I was concerned with 'em. And that's the difference in a lot of what goes on today.
[2:12:09]
Callan, C.: Can you remember some of the things that you needed to --
Winkel, R.: Well, a lot of the safety things and safety equipment or lack of it or the wrong kind.
Callan, C.: Let's talk about women in the workforce and what sorts of roles did women have at K-25? How do you think they were treated?
Winkel, R.: Well all our vacuum test equipment was all run by women, which their job was to test out the units to see that they were tight. And as far as I was concerned, they were treated with respect. In fact, I don't ever remember of any problem or run-in that we had because they was told that's a no-no. Their part of the gang, you treat 'em as such. We had women all over the place. We had 'em upstairs in the (indiscernible) quarters and central control, and they took up a lot shortage where the men were.
[2:13:35]
Callan, C.: Now, do you remember any women -- we're having a bit of trouble finding women to interview -- any women that worked themselves up through the ranks that you recall? That you still know -- are aware of today or remember?
Winkel, R.: Well, that, uh -- later on I'm sure it happened, but I mean, at the time, everybody was more or less set in what they were doing and what their job was.
Callan, C.: Minorities is the next question. Did you have any contact with Afro-Americans or other minorities and how were they treated?
Winkel, R.: Well, we were glad to have anybody that could move. So, it was really no problem. [Coughs].
[2:14:31]
Callan, C.: Okay. Spouses. What was life like for your spouse and children here at Oak Ridge?
Winkel, R.: What was --
Callan, C.: How was life like here in Oak Ridge for your wife and your children?
Winkel, R.: Well it -- Oak Ridge, as it grew older and older, the -- of course at that time I didn't have any children, but everything -- there was a shortage of everything for quite a few years here. And little of everything. But, as time grew older, why, these things disappeared and like today we have the best schools in the state. And it's, uh -- and the reason why is a lot of the people take interest in what goes on over there. And that's one of the (indiscernible).
Callan, C.: Well, we're getting into just talking about Oak Ridge in general, the town of Oak Ridge and if you can -- and I think you've given us some of this -- talking about what it was like to live in the secret city with a town that was fenced and secured. What was it like to be living in a community, a closed community?
Winkel, R.: You mean with soldiers on all the gates? Well, that -- it got to be really no problem. The only thing is if you have any visitors you had to go through a whole rigamarole to get 'em in here and it -- the searches and whatnot. But people got used to it and accepted it.
Callan, C.: How did you spend your off-hours? What did you do for recreation?
Winkel, R.: Well, you spent your off-hours in, um, playing cards, um, barbecues or gatherings -- having gathers and friends over and you made your own life and -- because there was nothing to do.
Callan, C.: Is there anything special or unusual you'd like to discuss about Oak Ridge and living in the secret city?
We're going to have to -- do you want to go cough or get a drink of water?
[2:17:31]
Winkel, R.: I'm good now.
Callan, C.: You're good? You got the cough. Okay. [laughs]. Okay, we’re getting into the last five questions. You look happy now. This has really been good, but this is important to think about. What - since we're developing an oral history, we want your -- what you feel that future generations should remember about K-25.
Winkel, R.: What do I think this could remember? Well, I think that, um, what you're doing -- there's a lot of -- most of my crew -- practically all of 'em are dead. I think that they should be remembered for the effort they put in it and also, at that time, we did not know a lot of the hazards. And a lot of the health physics -- they didn't know. So, we had to grow and they had to grow and but those are some of the things that other industries never went through because there were hazards.
Callan, C.: Can you describe the hazards a bit?
[2:19:09]
Winkel, R.: I'd rather not. I don't want to get into other areas.
INTERVIEWER: Did I interrupt your -- because that was an important question -- what future generations should remember. But, describe the great accomplishments here and what should be acknowledged.
Winkel, R.: Well, the -- I think they thing that should be acknowledged is the state in which things were accomplished and the effort that was put forward to do it. I don’t think we could do it today.
Callan, C.: Now, let's talk about -- If you were writing a book or a documentary about K-25 and if you thought in terms of just an outline of key topics, this might be hard because we're putting it together, but anything you could do to help. What are some important topics that we definitely need to cover when we're talking about K-25?
Winkel, R.: People.
Callan, C.: People specifically? Like, by name?
[2:20:39]
Winkel, R.: Well, I mean, what they did and this really goes from people who worked in the labs and the whole, the engineering group, the whole family, if you will.
Callan, C.: Now, did I -- I don't think I asked you -- did you meet anyone famous during your --
Winkel, R.: Huh?
Callan, C.: Did you meet anyone famous during that period at K-25?
Winkel, R.: Well, who would you call famous?
Callan, C.: Like Einstein or any of those?
Winkel, R.: No.
Callan, C.: No? Is there -- okay, this is always the big last question, which is -- is there anything else that you want to talk about that we did not ask you about and you want to just expand on that.
Winkel, R.: No. We did meet the man that was in charge of all of it. He came down and talked to some of the mechanics.
[2:21:53]
Callan, C.: Fermi? (phonetic sp.)
Winkel, R.: Hmm?
Callan, C.: Marico Fermi or -- you're talking about in charge of the whole plant?
Winkel, R.: Yeah - it was charge of the whole --
Callan, C.: The whole Manhattan Project?
Winkel, R.: Yeah.
Callan, C.: Is -- one other thing -- I think we asked you, but did you give us any names of other people you feel are key to be interviewed during our oral history process? I think Jennifer asked you.
Winkel, R.: So many of 'em are dead. And out of all the plant superintendents, the old ones I met, most of 'em are all dead. Chardin, Jack Pace going on, on, on.
Callan, C.: Well, I don't know if there's anything else. I think we're finished.
Winkel, R.: Good.
Callan, C.: Thank you.
Winkel, R.: Is this what you wanted?
Callan, C.: It's exactly. Thank you. I hope --
[End of Interview]

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K-25 Oral History Interview
Date: 3/10/05
Interviewee: Robert Winkel
Interviewer: Connie Callan
[1:00:10]
[Crew Talk]
Callan, C.: Can I ask you to state your name and spell your name so that we know how to pronounce your name?
Winkel, R.: My name is Robert August Winkel. W-I-N-K-E-L.
Callan, C.: Now, could you tell us what you actually did at K-25?
Winkel, R.: Well the original startup -- my job was to train the group that followed behind construction. As construction turned over to a unit to Carbide, my job was to ascertain it was ready for operation. And mainly that’s what my job was, and to train the crews to do the job.
Callan, C.: Well, let me just say that, just for the record, I’m Connie Callan and I am the interviewer, and this March 9th 05. Okay. We are going to start with just -- there’s a grouping of questions and the first grouping is your place of origin. So, we’re going to start with asking you about where you were born and if you want to elaborate a bit about where that was.
[02:17]
Winkel, R.: I was born in St. Louis, Missouri in 1914, December 4th, which would make me almost going on 91. And went to school there in University City High School. I have an honorary degree from (indiscernible) in management and engineering and that was it.
Callan, C.: I didn’t mean to speak over that [laughs]. Okay, where were you living prior to coming to K-25?
Winkel, R.: Where was I living? Uh, I was living in -- let’s see, where was I living then? I -- I was living in Bridgeport, Connecticut and I had joined the CBs, it was waiting to be shipped and I was called by John Maroon, which was a recruiter for Carbide, which I knew from working in a TNT plant in Niagara Falls. He asked me if I was interested in this project and I said, "Well, I’m interested." But I said I’m already committed. He said, "There will be a young man on a bicycle and will come by and tell you where to go and when you are supposed to be there."
[1:04:11]
And I said, Fine. I didn’t believe it. But, the following day he was there and I was released from my draft board and was told to report immediately to New York City, seventh floor of the Woolworth building as soon as I could get there. And that’s where I went. And from there, why, once I got to New York, why, I was given a place to stay at 72nd and Riverside Drive, seventh floor, and I was assigned a desk and a piece of paper and a pencil. I sat there for, oh, three or four days and finally I -- this man was running back and forth, which was Clark Center, and I told him, I said, "Look, I want something to do or I want out of here." He said, "I got something for you to do." So, my job from there on was to visit all the vendors that were making our equipment and to tool it. In other words, I had to go in, spend time on the assembly line, observe the tooling and techniques for assembly and disassembly, write it down, because I was going to have to teach this to the crew that was going to maintain this equipment in the plant.
[1:05:51]
That was what my problem was. It was very, very interesting. I met some interesting people and -- but I'd visit Allis Chalmers and Carrier and Chrysler and then I was finally shipped to -- from New York to K-25. My job when I got to K-25 was to set up a crew and train 'em, which meant I had to set up a training school with the equipment that we were going to maintain in there. So -- because the people that we were given to train were not all mechanics because all mechanics already had jobs, and it was quite a job to train these people. In some cases we had to train them in bringing down indicators and teaching them fractions because all the good people in this area had been hired by Y-12 or the lab, which was already running. There was nobody in this area that you could hire. So all the people that we had in startup of K-25 came from other places, other states from around here. We had interviews -- I did some of the interviewing in Chicago and whatnot.
[1:07:35]
We had interviewers all over. And-- but as we got the crews together -- the other thing was rather unusual; we never got to interview people which we were going to work. Those people were sent down to us in the field and we took them from there and started training them and I had to follow behind construction. When construction turned over a unit to Carbide, I had to go through that unit to satisfy ourselves that it was ready to go and ready to start because a lot of times we'd find flaws in what construction had failed to do and what they should have done. And, also, we had to move the vacuum test equipment, which was -- all of the vacuum test recruits were women. We had women all over the place. In the control room, most of them were women. And, it was quite a job from the standpoint of having so many people that were new. This was a new industry in which we didn't have any experience as to what it was going to take to maintain it. We had to feel our way along. We didn't know the life of the equipment, how long it was going to last, or what was the problems with it.
[1:09:17]
So, once I got started, I started going through building by building and behind every four or five buildings I would leave off a supervisor and a crew to maintain it. And I went all the way around the unit that way.
Callan, C.: This is really interesting. You're showing a different perspective than I've heard. What was your back -- you said the selection process, you know, they, they selected you and told you to show up at that Woolworth building -- what was your background? What was your work background?
Winkel, R.: Well, my work background was in construction. I was -- worked -- where I met John Maroon was in Niagara Falls and I was working for chemical construction and we were putting up a TNT plant. That's where I met him and knew him and he knew my background and so that's one of the reasons why he called me.
[1:10:26]
Callan, C.: Well, it looks like he selected the right person for the job. Let's go on to educational background.
Winkel, R.: Education? I, I --
Callan, C.: Let's go on to -- we're going to start with just high school.
Winkel, R.: Yeah.
Callan, C.: Tell us what high school you went to and where it was.
Winkel, R.: Where was it?
Callan, C.: Where was your high school?
Winkel, R.: University City. St. Louis.
Callan, C.: And, I think you mentioned this, but your college and your degrees you earned?
Winkel, R.: It was honorary. And the reason -- I had done a lot of work with Rolla University and had been up there many times and hiring engineers and I knew a lot of the people.
[1:11:20]
Callan, C.: Let's consider -- let me see. Family? Where your family came from originally?
Winkel, R.: German. We're German -- all german background. My mother and dad. We're not from Germany, but we all are German descendant.
Callan, C.: Now we're going into the group which is working at K-25. When you talked some about it -- I mean, see, you've already kind of answered this unless you want to say a few more words about it, which is why did you come to work at K-25? What attracted you here? How did you hear about it? I think you kind of said that unless you want to say it in a different way.
Winkel, R.: Well, I didn't know much about it, frankly. Uh, when I was in New York, we were told to not discuss anything. Uh, of course, most of us were in the dark as to what we were gonna do. And we knew nothing about the product -- the plant. The people in the plant used to say, "Well, we're making gum bubble. And, because, everything was coming in but nothing going out. And a lot of the people in the plant did not know what was going on.
[1:12:44]
Callan, C.: Well, what were your first recollections when you came to K-25? Do you remember the first day or week that you came here, what it was like?
Winkel, R.: Well, when I first came to K-25 I was not even -- did not even have a K-25 badge. And my badge number is somewhere in the 300 and I had one -- my first badge was under that. It was 200 and but it was -- the streets were muddy. You took off your shoes and socks to cross the street because there was mud up to your ankles. The whole town was full of equipment. The town was being built. The heavy equipment was everywhere. Houses were coming in on trailers. And thousands of people. And a shortage of everything. And, it was a lot different from New York. But, um, we had -- and the other thing is, you had to make your own fun here, because there was nothing to do. So, we manned together and we would have barbecues and weekends and whatnot.
[1:14:10]
And most of us worked around the clock. I worked around -- I was two years before I had vacation. And it was, uh – the people all turned to and it was something that I was very proud of -- they all worked and no complaint. And there was a lack of knowledge, but they were willing learners and we accomplished a lot.
Callan, C.: Well, what exact day and year did you come to K-25? Do you remember?
Winkel, R.: I don't remember.
Callan, C.: You don't remember? About the year? Do you remember about the year?
Winkel, R.: I think it was the turn -- I think it was probably around Christmas or there and somewhere around in there.
Callan, C.: Let me see. As far as your years of working at K-25, do you remember when you started, when you ended, did you transfer to Y-12 or any of --
Winkel, R.: No.
[1:15:35]
Callan, C.: No? How many years did you work there? From when to when, do you think?
Winkel, R.: Oh how many years was I with Carbide? Almost forty.
Callan, C.: And where you at K-25 --
Winkel, R.: No.
Callan, C.: -- that whole time?
Winkel, R.: I was with K-25 -- after I got through with starting the U, we -- Carbide was takin’ over from JA Jones different facilities. They took over the garage and I was given the garage to run. And then I was given the job of, of um, designing a new garage because the garage of JA Jones' was temporary. So I designed a new garage, which we moved into. And, all the rest of the plants Y, K, uh -- Paducah and Portsmouth garages the same as the one I designed. And uh, but then I -- in 1950 -- and also, I was given all maintenance of the cascade plus the garage to run. And then in '50 I was transferred to Paducah and I was given -- I became assistant plant manager and then became plant manager.
[1:17:06]
Then in '72 I was transferred back to K-25 to run K-25. And in '80 I retired.
Callan, C.: [Laughs] What a career. If, if people were -- when people would inquire what you were doing at K-25, what you tell the general population of Oak Ridge what you did there?
Winkel, R.: What did I tell 'em?
Callan, C.: Yeah. What would you tell them?
Winkel, R.: I didn't tell 'em anything.
Callan, C.: You wouldn't even make up a story?
Winkel, R.: No. I just said -- you mean before people knew what we were doing? I just said, well, I said I don't know. I said we're making a product and that's it. I just didn't discuss it. We very --
Callan, C.: I'm sorry. Is that getting on your -- My -- [laughs]. Okay. Go on.
Winkel, R.: Yeah, it was a no-no. You just didn't discuss it.
[1:18:16]
Callan, C.: I just -- people have told me stories of silly things that they said they made there --
Winkel, R.: Well, a lot of the mechanics says we're making bubble gum and whatever.
Callan, C.: What were your most vivid recollections of the time you spent, you know, managing K-25?
Winkel, R.: Well I met a lot of nice people and I enjoyed my job, what I was doing. It was very challenging and we did a lot of new things that had never been done before. And we-- also, we did not know all the hazards we were being faced with.
Callan, C.: What did you like most -- I'm gonna ask you two questions. What did you like most and what did you like least? So, we're gonna start --
Winkel, R.: What did I like what?
[1:19:24]
Callan, C.: Least -- about working at K-25. So, start out with what did you like most?
Winkel, R.: Well, I don't know. I, I looked forward to every day I come to work because it was so challenging. There were so many different things, and which we'd never been exposed to. Ways to do things and problems -- people problems and we had people that just weren't fit for the job, which we had to turn loose. And it was just -- I don't know. I can't say that I hated to come to work, but I always looked forward to coming to work.
Callan, C.: Talk about some of the people that you did have to let go. What require -- what things made it so that they just couldn't deal with working there?
Winkel, R.: Well, the main thing where the problem started there, which I did not like, is we were not allowed to interview the people we were going to work with. Uh, I said I needed so many milrights and they were sent down to me and most of 'em were not milrights or not mechanics. And so we had to take 'em and do the best we could with 'em and train 'em and some of 'em were not trainable and we had to turn loose of 'em.
[1:21:09]
Callan, C.: Hmm.
Winkel, R.: That was a problem.
Callan, C.: I can imagine. [laughs] Do you know why they wouldn't let you interview them?
Winkel, R.: Huh?
Callan, C.: Why would they not let you interview them? I guess that you don't know.
Winkel, R.: That was the way things were done.
Callan, C.: What did you dislike most about working at K-25?
Winkel, R.: Not being able to interview the people you were working with.
Callan, C.: Okay. Now we're going to talk about working conditions and your work environment. So, let's talk about -- how did people communicate to each other, fellow workers, in a secret facility?
[1:21:55]
Winkel, R.: Well, there was nothing secret discussed. Because the mechanics didn't know what was classified and what wasn't classified and they were told to keep their mouth shut about what they were doing and where they were working. That's as simple as it is.
Callan, C.: And, since everything was secret, how did people, as well as yourself, communicate with family and friends?
Winkel, R.: How did you -- you didn't communicate. You didn't discuss what you were doing.
Callan, C.: What were the physical working conditions like at the facility?
Winkel, R.: Uh, well, my office was on the cell floor and it was hot. Sweat used to run off my elbow when I was making out reports. My secretary used to sweat. There was no air conditioning. The only air condition in the plant was in the -- where they had the computer going. And everybody -- nobody had any air conditioning. With the cells running and it was hot.
[1:23:16]
Callan, C.: Let me see. What rules were really important to follow?
Winkel, R.: What was what?
Callan, C.: Rules. What were the rules that were very important that you had to follow?
Winkel, R.: Well there -- a lot of the rules we had to make. Security rules, which we all knew, um, and then -- safety. We changed the rules as we ran along -- I tell you one of the problems that we had. We were working on a cell and operations inadvertently started, which was a deadly hazard because all these people working around this equipment and it's starting up. And so I came up with the idea and got it approved that the main breaker that started the cell -- I put my lock on it so that nobody could start that cell until I turned loose of it. For safety. And we made our safety rules as we went along because a lot of the hazards we didn't know.
[1:24:36]
Callan, C.: Let's see. What were your coworkers like and would you say everyone pulled their own weight?
Winkel, R.: Uh, we were very -- the attitude of people in those days was a lot different than it is today. I mean, they were anxious to do what was -- the work and turned to -- and we didn't have hardly any slackers. I mean, they did not mind working overtime and there was a lot of it. Uh --
Callan, C.: Okay. Now we're going to talk about health, health issues. What kinds of health facilities were available at Oak Ridge and K-25?
Winkel, R.: Well, um, construction would house -- a lot of people were housed in hutment areas. Now, hutment area was a shack with four people in it with screened insides where you opened up for ventilation. The stove is centered sitting in sand. That was -- there were hundreds of 'em. Dormitories in town -- they was hundreds of women in town and these dormitories were all women and they was dormitories with men. But I'd say the most of it, the dormitories were full of women.
[1:26:33]
I was assigned a house eventually and because they was still being built. Now, the dormitories were the first things that they finished and built. But the houses were the last. So, as they came available, why, people were put in 'em. And, [coughs] that's the way the rules were of the day. The top supervision got first call and then on down the line.
Callan, C.: Okay. Did you have a nice house there?
Winkel, R.: Yeah. I had a nice little house.
Callan, C.: Was there much emphasis that they company had on safety and was your health regularly monitored? What kind of health monitoring did they do and did you ever get hurt at K-25?
Winkel, R.: No. I never was hurt. We -- our safety department had to grow the way we grew. They did not know all the problems that were going to have to be addressed. And, as they came up they were addressed. And the rules of the road were created. This was all new. Nobody had ever done it before. So, how you going to put rules on something that nobody knows anything about?
[1:28:07]
Callan, C.: I think we're ready to change tapes. He just gave me the sign. So, we're going on --
[End of Tape 1, Begin Tape 2]
[2:00:09]
Winkel, R.: We did not know and was not interested in what Y-12 was doing or the lab.
Callan, C.: Okay. Let's start because we finally got you up. Okay.
Winkel, R.: Because we had all we could handle. We just weren't interested in it. Later on, when we got an operation, I'd have people from the lab come over and explain to us what they were doing. And eventually, why we learned what Y-12 was doing.
[2:00:55]
Callan, C.: Let me see. I think -- let's talk about the Manhattan period and we've got those as the years between '43 to '45. And to help your recollection, let's talk about -- during the war, did you have any idea what the enriched uranium 235 you were separating would be used for?
Winkel, R.: Eventually I did. I was briefed.
Callan, C.: And how did you link what you were doing with the war effort and when -- the dropping of the atomic bomb on August 6, 1945 -- do you remember that day?
Winkel, R.: Um-hmm.
Callan, C.: And did you know that you all had a great part in that?
Winkel, R.: Yeah. We -- after I was made aware of it, I knew the urgency of getting things done and, but, we could only go as fast as construction because we were -- they were ahead of us and as they turned stuff over to us -- but see, Carbide's fee was based on when we got the cell and we had it running. So, they was a lot of push to get that unit on stream and get it running.
[2:02:17]
We worked a lot of overtime and a lot of weekends. I can remember weekend after weekend being out working because we had things that were about to bust and we had to take care of 'em.
Callan, C.: What was your reaction on August 6th with the news of the atomic bomb? Do you remember that day?
Winkel, R.: Well, I remember it, but I, um, was sort of glad that it happened.
Callan, C.: Well, anything -- I guess we're trying to -- we've gone through the whole Manhattan period pretty quickly. Key newspaper articles? Reactions to news? Nothing you recall during that period?
Winkel, R.: No.
Callan, C.: Let's go on to the post Manhattan project transitional recollections. So, we're talking about the years 1945 through 1948. Let me see -- how do you think history will view the Manhattan project and its outcome?
[2:03:36]
Winkel, R.: How do I look at history? Well I think that we should preserve parts of K-25 for history because there was so much went into that plant and blood and sweat and tears that I think that for people's brought up to date on what it looked like and what some of the problems were. Some of those shells oughta be kept rather than destroyed. Whether that's going to be, I don’t know.
Callan, C.: Well, I think what was done there is --
Winkel, R.: Huh?
Callan, C.: What we're trying to capture is what was done in that facility in your recollections, which is really important also, as well as the facility. But, could you explain -- are you familiar with the word Expansion Program and what kind of work started during those years?
Winkel, R.: Well, we had upgrading programs where the equipment was upgraded and changes made to increase production. And that's what the upgrading programs were. And redesigned some of the equipment to make is more efficient. And it was field changes and piping and so forth and so forth. And maintenance was given the job to do it. And that was it.
[2:05:28]
Callan, C.: Now we're going into the Cold War era, which is from 1948 to 1964, around. Do you remember -- we're kind of -- what was being done at the facility after the Manhattan project?
Winkel, R.: See, I was gone then.
Callan, C.: You were? Oh, I'm sorry. So we should --
Winkel, R.: Yeah. I left in '50.
Callan, C.: Okay. Let's go on to the next page. Just job specific, at the K-25, did you want to elaborate on the kinds of jobs you did?
Winkel, R.: Do what now?
[2:06:15]
Callan, C.: The kinds of jobs you did at K-25? Where they all maintenance related and supervisory?
Winkel, R.: Well, all the job I had was maintenance; strictly maintenance, and that's what the job was.
Callan, C.: Let me see. What was your most challenging assignment as an individual or as a member of a group?
Winkel, R.: Hmm. Well, one of the hardest things was -- when we started up in setting up that training school and getting the equipment in there so that the people that we were hiring and training had the equipment that was -- they were gonna work on there to train with. And a lot of people that had no experience in maintenance didn't see any reason why we should have it. And lack of knowledge and we had our Canfield school and nuclear knowledge, we called it, in which Canfield, which is still alive, taught decimals and how to read dial indicators and so forth, and micrometers. And, um --
[2:07:54]
Callan, C.: What kind of equipment? Can you describe the equipment by name that you --
Winkel, R.: We had a lot of centrifugal compressors. Hundreds of 'em.
Callan, C.: And that's what you maintained?
Winkel, R.: Um-hmm. That and well the (indiscernible) that went with it.
Callan, C.: Now, were you there during the period when -- the construction of K-25?
Winkel, R.: Huh?
Callan, C.: Were you these during the construction of K-25?
Winkel, R.: Well, I mean, the construction -- yes. I was there because the construction was ahead of me. They were still building cells that we were going to -- eventually be turned over to us. See, I started at the top of the U and worked all the way around the U, and the construction was always ahead of me.
[2:08:59]
In fact, the other side of the U, they were still putting in depressors and equipment.
Callan, C.: Well, let me ask you some of these questions and if you can answer them -- what were your recollections of K-25, of why K-25 was chosen to be constructed where it was, and how were materials transported to the site, what difficulties were encountered in accomplishing construction of the facility? Do you remember any of that?
Winkel, R.: I -- No.
Callan, C.: So we haven't yet found anyone in the construction, so since you said --
Winkel, R.: I wasn't in construction.
Callan, C.: I know you -- I just am kind of -- did people notice any activity. How quickly? Do you know why the facility was named K-25? Do you know?
Winkel, R.: No.
[2:09:57]
Callan, C.: Can you compare the equipment that you had then to the equipment of today a bit?
Winkel, R.: Well, it's -- it was all different. Even today the equipment is not like what we have today. It's -- it was totally different. I don't know of any facility that's anything like it.
Callan, C.: You can't compare it to any other facility?
Winkel, R.: Not anywhere near like it.
Callan, C.: Were there any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers and the unions? Did you ever recall when you worked there?
Winkel, R.: You mean, like a conference?
Callan, C.: Conflicts. You know --
Winkel, R.: No, I mean, we-- I had no problems with the union whatsoever because I'd worked with union people before that and I think that if you treat people right and try to do the right thing by 'em and work with 'em, that's part of the problem today with the union, uh -- a lot of the people do not know what the common worker goes through. That's part of the problem. And working with these people I knew what they were going through because I was going through with 'em. And I was just as interested in correcting things that they were concerned with because I was concerned with 'em. And that's the difference in a lot of what goes on today.
[2:12:09]
Callan, C.: Can you remember some of the things that you needed to --
Winkel, R.: Well, a lot of the safety things and safety equipment or lack of it or the wrong kind.
Callan, C.: Let's talk about women in the workforce and what sorts of roles did women have at K-25? How do you think they were treated?
Winkel, R.: Well all our vacuum test equipment was all run by women, which their job was to test out the units to see that they were tight. And as far as I was concerned, they were treated with respect. In fact, I don't ever remember of any problem or run-in that we had because they was told that's a no-no. Their part of the gang, you treat 'em as such. We had women all over the place. We had 'em upstairs in the (indiscernible) quarters and central control, and they took up a lot shortage where the men were.
[2:13:35]
Callan, C.: Now, do you remember any women -- we're having a bit of trouble finding women to interview -- any women that worked themselves up through the ranks that you recall? That you still know -- are aware of today or remember?
Winkel, R.: Well, that, uh -- later on I'm sure it happened, but I mean, at the time, everybody was more or less set in what they were doing and what their job was.
Callan, C.: Minorities is the next question. Did you have any contact with Afro-Americans or other minorities and how were they treated?
Winkel, R.: Well, we were glad to have anybody that could move. So, it was really no problem. [Coughs].
[2:14:31]
Callan, C.: Okay. Spouses. What was life like for your spouse and children here at Oak Ridge?
Winkel, R.: What was --
Callan, C.: How was life like here in Oak Ridge for your wife and your children?
Winkel, R.: Well it -- Oak Ridge, as it grew older and older, the -- of course at that time I didn't have any children, but everything -- there was a shortage of everything for quite a few years here. And little of everything. But, as time grew older, why, these things disappeared and like today we have the best schools in the state. And it's, uh -- and the reason why is a lot of the people take interest in what goes on over there. And that's one of the (indiscernible).
Callan, C.: Well, we're getting into just talking about Oak Ridge in general, the town of Oak Ridge and if you can -- and I think you've given us some of this -- talking about what it was like to live in the secret city with a town that was fenced and secured. What was it like to be living in a community, a closed community?
Winkel, R.: You mean with soldiers on all the gates? Well, that -- it got to be really no problem. The only thing is if you have any visitors you had to go through a whole rigamarole to get 'em in here and it -- the searches and whatnot. But people got used to it and accepted it.
Callan, C.: How did you spend your off-hours? What did you do for recreation?
Winkel, R.: Well, you spent your off-hours in, um, playing cards, um, barbecues or gatherings -- having gathers and friends over and you made your own life and -- because there was nothing to do.
Callan, C.: Is there anything special or unusual you'd like to discuss about Oak Ridge and living in the secret city?
We're going to have to -- do you want to go cough or get a drink of water?
[2:17:31]
Winkel, R.: I'm good now.
Callan, C.: You're good? You got the cough. Okay. [laughs]. Okay, we’re getting into the last five questions. You look happy now. This has really been good, but this is important to think about. What - since we're developing an oral history, we want your -- what you feel that future generations should remember about K-25.
Winkel, R.: What do I think this could remember? Well, I think that, um, what you're doing -- there's a lot of -- most of my crew -- practically all of 'em are dead. I think that they should be remembered for the effort they put in it and also, at that time, we did not know a lot of the hazards. And a lot of the health physics -- they didn't know. So, we had to grow and they had to grow and but those are some of the things that other industries never went through because there were hazards.
Callan, C.: Can you describe the hazards a bit?
[2:19:09]
Winkel, R.: I'd rather not. I don't want to get into other areas.
INTERVIEWER: Did I interrupt your -- because that was an important question -- what future generations should remember. But, describe the great accomplishments here and what should be acknowledged.
Winkel, R.: Well, the -- I think they thing that should be acknowledged is the state in which things were accomplished and the effort that was put forward to do it. I don’t think we could do it today.
Callan, C.: Now, let's talk about -- If you were writing a book or a documentary about K-25 and if you thought in terms of just an outline of key topics, this might be hard because we're putting it together, but anything you could do to help. What are some important topics that we definitely need to cover when we're talking about K-25?
Winkel, R.: People.
Callan, C.: People specifically? Like, by name?
[2:20:39]
Winkel, R.: Well, I mean, what they did and this really goes from people who worked in the labs and the whole, the engineering group, the whole family, if you will.
Callan, C.: Now, did I -- I don't think I asked you -- did you meet anyone famous during your --
Winkel, R.: Huh?
Callan, C.: Did you meet anyone famous during that period at K-25?
Winkel, R.: Well, who would you call famous?
Callan, C.: Like Einstein or any of those?
Winkel, R.: No.
Callan, C.: No? Is there -- okay, this is always the big last question, which is -- is there anything else that you want to talk about that we did not ask you about and you want to just expand on that.
Winkel, R.: No. We did meet the man that was in charge of all of it. He came down and talked to some of the mechanics.
[2:21:53]
Callan, C.: Fermi? (phonetic sp.)
Winkel, R.: Hmm?
Callan, C.: Marico Fermi or -- you're talking about in charge of the whole plant?
Winkel, R.: Yeah - it was charge of the whole --
Callan, C.: The whole Manhattan Project?
Winkel, R.: Yeah.
Callan, C.: Is -- one other thing -- I think we asked you, but did you give us any names of other people you feel are key to be interviewed during our oral history process? I think Jennifer asked you.
Winkel, R.: So many of 'em are dead. And out of all the plant superintendents, the old ones I met, most of 'em are all dead. Chardin, Jack Pace going on, on, on.
Callan, C.: Well, I don't know if there's anything else. I think we're finished.
Winkel, R.: Good.
Callan, C.: Thank you.
Winkel, R.: Is this what you wanted?
Callan, C.: It's exactly. Thank you. I hope --
[End of Interview]