Red Dot Sights for Handguns

Finally got around to getting one of my VP9s milled. Went with Primary Machine based on some recommendations from guys on P-F. Slide was refinished with black nitride. Took her out Sunday evening to get a rough zero and quick practice session in before the range closed. I had a G19 set up with an RMR several years ago before I made the transition to HK, and I forgot just how awesome the RMR is at providing feedback about the quality of the trigger press. Learning to accept the wobble and trust the dot leads to pretty decent split times while getting quality hits—I put about 150 rounds through the repair center shown below, mostly relatively fast-paced (pairs and Bills) from 5-15 yards, just working on acquiring the dot and tracking it through recoil. More practice is needed, for sure, but I can already see myself putting RMRs on several other guns.

The only thing left to decide is whether to stick with RMRs, or go with an ACRO. This is being carried concealed AIWB in a Phlster Floodlight. My only concern with the ACRO is that the rear of the optic protrudes upward from the slide and occupies the space that is left empty on the RMR between the front portion with the lens and the lower rear part... With the RMR it seems the bulk of the sight sits right above my belt line and has negligible effect on concealment. I’m worried that the Aimpoint will print a little more. Anyone have experience carrying both the RMR and ACRO want to weigh in on how concealment is working out for you in an AIWB holster?

Casey- What was the turnaround time with Primary Machine? Happy with the work?

Has anybody sent stuff to Mark at L&M Precision lately?

LAPD tested the new Romeo Pro or whatever it is and they were surprisingly happy with it. Said it stood up to all their tests.

I had Primary Machine mill my VP9 slide for an ACRO this summer. Turn around time was at or just under their promise. Comms were good. Slide refinishing was perfect. They want the optic shipped with the slide and it was returned mounted. I have not removed it to look, but can see the ends of the milled dovetail. I am happy with their work.

I would not hesitate to send one to Mark. His website didn’t indicate he was doing VP9 / ACRO, guess I should have called.

I sent a Sig 320 Pro slide to L&M about 3-4 months ago for some minor work. The Sig 320 Pro is a newer model from Sig that is being pushed to the LE market.

320 slide and the X5 style grip module. I wasn't really looking to get another 320 or get into a whole new platform. We changed our policy about a year ago to allow personally owned pistols for duty carry and 3 Officers went to the Sig 320. Two stock 320's and 1 RX model. Being a FI for my PD I thought it would be beneficial to have some time with a 320 for instructional purposes and I found the Pro model through a LE distributor at a decent price I could live with.

The slide on the Pro accepts the Sig Romeo optic and the DPP out of the box. I had L&M perform his Sig X5 to RMR service on my slide and install some new Ameriglo sights. Now the slide accepts all 3 optics, but I am using the RMR exclusively.

I sent a Sig 320 Pro slide to L&M about 3-4 months ago for some minor work. The Sig 320 Pro is a newer model from Sig that is being pushed to the LE market.

320 slide and the X5 style grip module. I wasn't really looking to get another 320 or get into a whole new platform. We changed our policy about a year ago to allow personally owned pistols for duty carry and 3 Officers went to the Sig 320. Two stock 320's and 1 RX model. Being a FI for my PD I thought it would be beneficial to have some time with a 320 for instructional purposes and I found the Pro model through a LE distributor at a decent price I could live with.

The slide on the Pro accepts the Sig Romeo optic and the DPP out of the box. I had L&M perform his Sig X5 to RMR service on my slide and install some new Ameriglo sights. Now the slide accepts all 3 optics, but I am using the RMR exclusively.

Turn around time was maybe 3 weeks and the work was perfect.

Not sure why the Professional series is restricted to LE/APP purchase only.

The X-Full and new revision X-Carry seem to be the same as the Pro series but with a different optic mount setup. I did see the Bobro M17/Legion RMR plate with rear BUIS that should work with the newer X-Series.

I just got my G34 Gen 5 MOS slide back from Agency getting the AOS cut, and it is amazing. The lock up is tight and secure, and the mounting depth is almost identical to a custom milled slide. I mounted my new SRO and it it an amazing system.

I now need to find a decent holster for this Gen 5 G34 with SRO as my 6354 DO will not accept it. I considered simply modifying the existing holster, but it seems as though a significant amount of material would need to be removed to make it work as required. I thought the newer 6360 or 6390 RDS line of holster may work, but with Holster Ops gone now, and the Safariland site being horrible for finding compatible holsters, I am looking for options. Any ideas?

THREAD HIJACK: GOD how I miss picking up the phone, calling holsterops direct, telling them what I needed and having it on my doorstep in a week or less. Safariland needs to tweak their website big time.

THREAD HIJACK: GOD how I miss picking up the phone, calling holsterops direct, telling them what I needed and having it on my doorstep in a week or less. Safariland needs to tweak their website big time.

I sent a Sig 320 Pro slide to L&M about 3-4 months ago for some minor work. The Sig 320 Pro is a newer model from Sig that is being pushed to the LE market.

320 slide and the X5 style grip module. I wasn't really looking to get another 320 or get into a whole new platform. We changed our policy about a year ago to allow personally owned pistols for duty carry and 3 Officers went to the Sig 320. Two stock 320's and 1 RX model. Being a FI for my PD I thought it would be beneficial to have some time with a 320 for instructional purposes and I found the Pro model through a LE distributor at a decent price I could live with.

The slide on the Pro accepts the Sig Romeo optic and the DPP out of the box. I had L&M perform his Sig X5 to RMR service on my slide and install some new Ameriglo sights. Now the slide accepts all 3 optics, but I am using the RMR exclusively.

Finally got around to getting one of my VP9s milled. Went with Primary Machine based on some recommendations from guys on P-F. Slide was refinished with black nitride. Took her out Sunday evening to get a rough zero and quick practice session in before the range closed. I had a G19 set up with an RMR several years ago before I made the transition to HK, and I forgot just how awesome the RMR is at providing feedback about the quality of the trigger press. Learning to accept the wobble and trust the dot leads to pretty decent split times while getting quality hits—I put about 150 rounds through the repair center shown below, mostly relatively fast-paced (pairs and Bills) from 5-15 yards, just working on acquiring the dot and tracking it through recoil. More practice is needed, for sure, but I can already see myself putting RMRs on several other guns.

The only thing left to decide is whether to stick with RMRs, or go with an ACRO. This is being carried concealed AIWB in a Phlster Floodlight. My only concern with the ACRO is that the rear of the optic protrudes upward from the slide and occupies the space that is left empty on the RMR between the front portion with the lens and the lower rear part... With the RMR it seems the bulk of the sight sits right above my belt line and has negligible effect on concealment. I’m worried that the Aimpoint will print a little more. Anyone have experience carrying both the RMR and ACRO want to weigh in on how concealment is working out for you in an AIWB holster?

Casey- What was the turnaround time with Primary Machine? Happy with the work?

Has anybody sent stuff to Mark at L&M Precision lately?

LAPD tested the new Romeo Pro or whatever it is and they were surprisingly happy with it. Said it stood up to all their tests.

Mark is a great guy and does excellent work, he's done 5 for me, but recently all mine have been going to Jeremy at Vulcan. He turns guns around in under a week for LE and his prices are solid. $150 for LE to do serrations, coating and optic cut. Less if you don't need the serrations.

THREAD HIJACK: GOD how I miss picking up the phone, calling holsterops direct, telling them what I needed and having it on my doorstep in a week or less. Safariland needs to tweak their website big time.

Weird day of shooting sports colliding with real world tactics I see many of you promulgate. Just two relevant to this thread:

Someone I generally otherwise have faith in, only carries his RDS'd gun on things like road trips, not day to day. Says his RMR06 "washes out" in some conditions. Didn't use that term, insists it's the battery unit, but can encounter lighting conditions in his house (dim inside, bright outside) that give him no visible dot. Is... this a thing? Did older ones fall for it more?

Trusted leader guy just came back from various things like Africa hunting trip, hanging out in private/personal event with big name instructors etc. During some of these discussions, said a very solid opinion from several was that RDS on pistols are good on the range but not in real gunfights; you'll not find the dot, so stick with irons.

Not a believer in that last esp, but wanted to hear more of your real world experience, esp if anyone has found statistically-relevant issues when their whole agency goes with RDS equipped guns.

(If you want real fun, we should talk about the opinions I got on WMLs).

Someone I generally otherwise have faith in, only carries his RDS'd gun on things like road trips, not day to day. Says his RMR06 "washes out" in some conditions. Didn't use that term, insists it's the battery unit, but can encounter lighting conditions in his house (dim inside, bright outside) that give him no visible dot. Is... this a thing? Did older ones fall for it more?

I carry an RMR06 on duty and off duty every day. I keep both guns are max - 2. In the absolutely brightest sun yes you can get washout, no different than using a T1 when the setting isn't bright enough. Crazy thing is, in the unlikely situation it does get washed out you either have the RMR ears to work with or those pesky little irons to transition to. I don't know what he is talking to with the inside to outside thing. It sounds to me more likely he is using on of the auto adjust ones which do have legitimate problems with switching to the correct brightness.

Trusted leader guy just came back from various things like Africa hunting trip, hanging out in private/personal event with big name instructors etc. During some of these discussions, said a very solid opinion from several was that RDS on pistols are good on the range but not in real gunfights; you'll not find the dot, so stick with irons.

^This is dumb and a training flaw not an equipment issue. Learn how to run a dot and you will be more efficient at picking up the dot on the draw than running irons. If you aren't running the dot correctly then it will be perceived as if you are picking up the irons faster but really the dot is just showing your draw inefficiencies more clearly to you.

... If you aren't running the dot correctly then it will be perceived as if you are picking up the irons faster but reallythe dot is just showing your draw inefficiencies more clearly to you.

Never fully consciously realized it and said it, but agree fully now you did. I have gotten better at shooting all handguns since I fully committed to the RDS. I think I'd attributed it to just spending the time training, but now I realize you can't halfass sight alignment and just miss like on irons, but notice when you aren't lined up because no helpful red dot. Hmm...

Shoobe- I recently got bit by my auto adjust on my 507c so I'm guessing thats the issue for your friend. Mine was coming out of the holster into a dark range and then kicking on the WML which was too much for it to process before me needing it. Proper presentation and framing the target in the window helped alot plus running tritium fronts and rears but I'm glad I was on the range.

I've since been running it in manual and I've been much happier. I havent messed with my rmr06 for a bit but I imagine its a slightly different version of the same problem I had.

I also noticed that I needed to spend more time initially with the RDS to overcome the curve and honestly to clean up alot of bad habits I've developed. Its harder to be sloppy with the dot and my shooting has improved as a result. If your friend has been running it on and off then he may just need more time behind it.

Yeah, I was trying to explain to him so we could diagnose it that I just in the last 2 years went through around a dozen RDSs on carbines and pistols, to find one that works. My eyes make Aimpoint and many others not work, but other features, especially auto-adjust, made several no go as well.

One of the last failed ones was the Z-Point, the slightly-civilian version of the RSA the german army and a few others issue. It fit very, very neatly on my FAL and would be great on the SIG, so I hung onto it trying to find a way to use it, but no. Fuck that thing. Forget dark to light issues: the last time I used it I was moving around on the range but mostly under trees to the side (to take cover, etc) on a breezy sunny day. The sight was ramping constantly up and down, practically flickering, trying to keep up with the leaf shadows as they moved around. Unusable. Couldn't hit a thing.

We have a long ways to go before auto-brightness is usable I think. Manual for life!

I have had problems with my 507c going into auto mode after first being set in manual and then changing reticles during a stage while shooting. It has also happened to my wife's 507c. I really like the circle only reticle for shooting plates,but I will only have RMR07's on my carry pistols. I have 5 Gen1 RMR's and have been running one of them on a Gen 3 G-22 since 2011.The only problem I've ever had with any of the 5 has been the "flickering" and that was solved with a sealing plate. I have those RMR's on everything from 9mm , 357 Sig , 40 S&W , 45 ACP , and 10mm and have shot them on pistols both suppressed and non suppressed without any other problems.

This is a great discussion and a LOT of experts. I only have a small addition and my general "irons to RDS" impressions.

Edited to add: All my "impressions" are measured using shot timers and are not "impressions" but I didn't think any body would be interested in my hard times.

Setup: SRO (5moa), G17. Nothing special or unique with either. "out of the box" setup.

Experience: 1000'ish rounds through the SRO learning in/out of RDS's. 10's of thousands on the G17 using irons. IDPA/IPSC, lots of quality training classes with known instructors. Lots of "home work" training on my own. Most of my training is open-range with COF's similar to IDPA/IPSC. I'm lucky I live near national forest and I can setup any type of range or COF I want. I'm firmly in the "decent shooter" category.

Summary: Sun glare on the SRO facing a target in the setting sun confused me into thinking it was the dot and I was missing *badly*.

Detail: I was shooting a COF roughly IPSC/IDPA style. Maneuvering through the course, the last set of targets were steel at 10'ish yards. I was facing the setting sun. A "glare" from the sun on the SRO glass made a "red" bloom which I mistook for the dot while shooting at speed. I fired several times (2-3), confused as hell how I could be missing 6" at 10 yards. I assume the RDS was broken badly or lost zero so I acquired the irons and completed the course. As I acquired the irons I saw the real dot still working as advertised. The SRO was functioning perfectly and was perfectly zeroed. Shooter error: I mistook the bloom/glare for the dot.

Lesson learned:

glare/bloom on the glass can present itself to be the "dot" when it's not

Irons backups saved the day (figuratively since I was shooting paper and steel bad guys who were not moving or shooting back)

General Impressions:

Transitioning from irons to RDS mirrors nearly everything stated in this thread.

I noticed a speed increase proportional to the distance. I noticed a bump in accuracy at range.

Up close <= 10 yards I am not any faster or noticeably more accurate compared to irons. Maybe even a touch slower. Especially before I got enough rounds and dry fire practice with the SRO to "find the dot" competently.

Beginning at 10+ yards the speed dramatically begins to increase. At 15-25 I'm able to nearly keep the same speed as a 7-10 yard shot.

Follow on shots are faster

Transitioning targets is MUCH faster

Shooting movers is much MUCH easier and faster. Just like a rifle, both eyes open and looking at the target with the dot hovering makes the process WAAAAAY easier.

@25 my B8 test average 5'ish points better. 85-90 with irons. 90-95 with RDS/SRO and an increase in speed.

@25, 8" plate draw and hit is sub 2 seconds very consistently. Nearly effortlessly. I had work and concentrate to make 2.25-2.5 consistently with irons.

I'll share a few observations from 8 or 9 years with the red dot on a pistol. You'll discover most of the benefits and some of the drawbacks after a few range trips. Many of the drawbacks will disappear or minimize with time. The issues that won't go away and I would recommend giving some training attention to are:

Acquiring the dot from non-traditional shooting positions. Through a port in a VTAC barricade or under a car or some other contortion. (I just find the front sight, level the gun, and engage when the dot appears).

The dot washing out at night when using a pistol mounted light and against an up-close and light-colored target. (Haven't found a way around this, just transition to irons). BTW, this is the only washout I consistently experience, every time no matter what, in many, many thousands of rounds ... assuming my dot intensity is appropriate for the conditions.

First shot speed. If I'm static on a square range my index has gotten pretty good and I'm pretty close to irons speed, but any situation other than that and it's taken a lot of training. I've taken to altering my draw stroke to something similar to a PF press-out (a little bit of casting, like I'm picking my nose with my front sight). It's a small bit of wasted motion but I've found more consistency with acquiring the dot and first-shot speed.

I might have missed it or forgotten, but how often is everyone cleaning their lenses, and how?

I ask because I had my first glare-out ever. Weird random bit of shooting, basically into the sun, and the dust meant I couldn't see the target. Both eyes open, I missed by a tiny bit. Was able to wipe it off, hit the second shot, but that's not ideal.

I have been doing anti-fog/etc wipes about every two weeks, and storing when not on me with a cover but what is everyone else doing?

As far as cleaning my sight I'm honestly pretty bad about it and have no consistent pattern. When I check my gun before either leaving the house or starting shift and look through the optic if it looks too dirty I take a microfiber cloth and clean it off. I reapply Cat Crap if it gets rained on or about once a month. I've never found it too dirty to affect the dot.

As far as canned air goes, I would stay away. This discussion was just had elsewhere and its possible the temp shock from the canned air (Yanno how it gets cold?) can crack a window, especially the micro window by the transmitter (Never seen this happen but it was part of a discussion so your own risk really). As one guy just found out Trijicon will charge for that window to be repaired if it cracks because that wasn't their issue. Think it was like $150ish.

I might have missed it or forgotten, but how often is everyone cleaning their lenses, and how?

I ask because I had my first glare-out ever. Weird random bit of shooting, basically into the sun, and the dust meant I couldn't see the target. Both eyes open, I missed by a tiny bit. Was able to wipe it off, hit the second shot, but that's not ideal.

I have been doing anti-fog/etc wipes about every two weeks, and storing when not on me with a cover but what is everyone else doing?

I use a lens pen. Bristles to brush any big stuff out, then cat crap on Qtip. I notice I clean my ACRO a lot less than open emitters..

Are any of you using blacked out/non-tritium/no glowing element suppressor height sights on your RDS equipped pistols? Any thoughts on that for CCW pistols? I have WMLs, but wonder just how much traditional 'night sights' are still seen as needed as they were before widespread use of WMLs.

Are any of you using blacked out/non-tritium/no glowing element suppressor height sights on your RDS equipped pistols? Any thoughts on that for CCW pistols? I have WMLs, but wonder just how much traditional 'night sights' are still seen as needed as they were before widespread use of WMLs.

Of my four RDS slides - three have suppressor height sights w/out tritium or any other insert, though one in painted a neon yellow at the very top; the fourth has a very low cut from Atei with their rear Shim Sight, for it I just left the Spaulding CAP front sight in it until Atei ships the correct height front from Ameri-Glo.

I am apparently weird, but I still like tritium (front only, or very dim on back; I usually marker over the rears of three dots). My experience matches my expectation from the human factors side of orienting to position: When lights out, you can tell precisely where the gun is, such as when depressed while searching, then are quicker and/or more precise when to coming up to fire even when the light goes on and the tritium cannot be detected.

For RDS, it's a backup method for which the same logic applies. YES, the tritium is way too dim to be seen with the red dot on, PLUS you should be focusing at +/- infinity, so the whole front sight should be going away. Without pulling the gun out to look, I couldn't tell you were the sights are in my RDS window. My memories of shooting the RDS gun are just target + dot.

Then it's on you. If you never liked tritium fronts, OR you think backup is pretty backupy so doesn't need to have every cheat as things have likely gone bad, I can buy leaving it out. Seriously. I've seen enough folks say they can do okay to normal defensive ranges (0 - maybe 15 yds) with NO irons, using the RDS window as a backup ring, I might make my next red dot the only sight on the gun.

Are any of you using blacked out/non-tritium/no glowing element suppressor height sights on your RDS equipped pistols? Any thoughts on that for CCW pistols? I have WMLs, but wonder just how much traditional 'night sights' are still seen as needed as they were before widespread use of WMLs.

I run blacked out Ameriglos with my ACRO. I’ve never gotten the institutional LE boner for tritium, especially the three dot variety. I got into a discussion just yesterday about the validity of duty use fiber optic fronts (without a MRDS). I posited that we’re in the industry of identifying a threat (via white light or ambient) prior to sending rounds down range. When doing so, FO will light up - and if it doesn’t, just do what people did in the days before we *had* to line up three dots. Three glowing dots do nothing to help me discern whether a shot needs to be placed, or not.

Thanks to all for the informative answers. The Ameriglos are actually the ones I'm looking at. The only type of true night sights I like are the Redback One Enhanced Combat Sights due to their simplicity. I hate a busy sight picture and have never liked the three dot setup in spite of having it forever in LE.

I couldn't quite take the plunge into a no back-up sight setup, but if pistol sized RDS' go the way of their rifle counterparts in using etched reticles, I could see that becoming a thing.

We had a discussion similar to this on another thread. If you have a WML, the tritium sights are generally unnecessary. While they are immaterial when using the RDS, a fiber-optic front sight resulted in better shooting, i.e. speed and accuracy than plain black fronts. No discernible difference between green or red FO and no confusion with the RDS dot. Also, the front sight generally disappeared from focus when shooting properly with the RDS, i.e. focus on the target, not the dot/sights. Pay attention to the 2nd sentence above. When the gun has a WML. The prior thread was focused on duty LEO guns. Most LEO's I've seen in my area have a light on their gun. All the time. When you carry openly, it is fairly easy to find good holsters for the common guns and lights. Finding a good concealment holster becomes more difficult or impossible. So keep your situation in mind. I like the O-Light Mini for my G19 size guns. However, I have yet to find an acceptable holster for the gun with light attached. If you don't have a light, or you are using a handheld, there may still be a use for tritium in the front sight.

I have gone through several different sight heights. I bought one of the Brownells G19 slides with the RMR cut. I got a set of plain black suppressor height sights. I was severely disappointed in several regards. They were so high that they blocked a lot of the sight window, which slowed down acquisition of the dot. Despite being paired, the front sight was very narrow compared to the notch in the rear, so accuracy suffered unless I really slowed down. Too much slop trying to get the right amount of light on either side. First, the Brownells slide has been great. All parts fit and it has been reliable. Part of the sight problem though is the result of how deep the RDS cut is in the slide. It is deeper than the Glock MOS and consequently the sights take up more window. Further research determined that this is normal and common with non MOS slide cuts. So I researched and experimented with different height sights. I used a .215" high x .125 " wide front and a 10-8 Glock MOS standard rear sight. Total rear sight height is 0.325", 0.250" above the slide, 0.140" wide notch. The sights are just visible in the bottom of the RM06 Gen 1 RDS. If you use a RDS with a higher/thicker base, or an MOS model which sits higher, the sight heights I used probably won't work.

I have a Bravo Co x300 and I attached a few belt loops onto it for IWB. It works great for me on a G19.5 w 507c and X300U. I did give it a light massage with a heat gun to fit my threaded barrel. Its been pretty good with hiding under an untucked shirt and is pretty decently comfortable even on day long road trips.

I have both gens of Olight PL Minis and like them quite a bit. I use one on my backup at work.

Are any of you using blacked out/non-tritium/no glowing element suppressor height sights on your RDS equipped pistols? Any thoughts on that for CCW pistols? I have WMLs, but wonder just how much traditional 'night sights' are still seen as needed as they were before widespread use of WMLs.

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