In Response to Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek? A: Overwhelming Majority of Red Sox Fans Want Varitek to Stay Gone : Regardless, do you think it's a good move bringing him back? They have Salty, probably Lavarnway, and they can get a younger (not 40) alternative as back up who can throw out an occasional runner. And how do you bring him back with the 'C' on his chest? Do you say, 'Jason, we'll take you back at cheap money, but we need to strip the 'C' off your chest?" The easiest way to avoid that is to just say Bye-Bye.Posted by ADG

I've got to admit that Moon and his stats have made a believer out of me. I'm not one to believe in coincidences, especially in baseball, so I think there's something "to" the fact that the team has more wins with him catching than anyone else. I'm not absolutely crazy about the idea of carrying three catchers but when 'tek is one of them I think the only thing worse than carrying three catchers is not doing it.

As for the "C" thing, I was/am very disappointed that he apparently didn't attempt to remedy the clubhouse issues (assuming, that is, that he didn't try and fail). Either he didn't try to thwart the behavior or he tried and no longer has enough clout in the clubhouse to be listened to. In neither situation should he be a captain.The good news (IMO) is that at this point in his career, carrying that "C" around is kinda like a Lifetime Achievement Award, and nobody takes it seriously anyway.

I have to give 'tek a lot of the credit for the progress Salty has made, and I'd like to see him have the same influence on Lavarnway. I'd offer him another low-ball contract - which he's proven he'll take to remain with the Sox - and give him a chance to work with the catchers AND be a 3rd backup. (or 2nd backup if you want to be technical about it. :-) )

IDEALLY I'd offer him a multi-year contract where he's a player/catching coach/mentor this year and next year moves into the coaching/managing aspect of the game.

Hmmm.. I wonder if he'd be interested in that. It'd be an opportunity for him to gracefully bow out of playing and still contribute to the Sox organization.

In Response to Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek? A: Overwhelming Majority of Red Sox Fans Want Varitek to Stay Gone : I've got to admit that Moon and his stats have made a believer out of me. I'm not one to believe in coincidences, especially in baseball, so I think there's something "to" the fact that the team has more wins with him catching than anyone else. I'm not absolutely crazy about the idea of carrying three catchers but when 'tek is one of them I think the only thing worse than carrying three catchers is not doing it. As for the "C" thing, I was/am very disappointed that he apparently didn't attempt to remedy the clubhouse issues (assuming, that is, that he didn't try and fail). Either he didn't try to thwart the behavior or he tried and no longer has enough clout in the clubhouse to be listened to. In neither situation should he be a captain. The good news (IMO) is that at this point in his career, carrying that "C" around is kinda like a Lifetime Achievement Award, and nobody takes it seriously anyway. I have to give 'tek a lot of the credit for the progress Salty has made, and I'd like to see him have the same influence on Lavarnway. I'd offer him another low-ball contract - which he's proven he'll take to remain with the Sox - and give him a chance to work with the catchers AND be a 3rd backup. (or 2nd backup if you want to be technical about it. :-) ) IDEALLY I'd offer him a multi-year contract where he's a player/catching coach/mentor this year and next year moves into the coaching/managing aspect of the game. Hmmm.. I wonder if he'd be interested in that. It'd be an opportunity for him to gracefully bow out of playing and still contribute to the Sox organization.Posted by S5

Assuming they sign Ortiz (full time non-positional DH) and if they do keep 3 catchers, you really limit your bench. It means you only have one back up infielder and one back up outfielder. Unless they keep 11 pitchers, it will never happen.

I've got to admit that Moon and his stats have made a believer out of me. I'm not one to believe in coincidences, especially in baseball, so I think there's something "to" the fact that the team has more wins with him catching than anyone else. I'm not absolutely crazy about the idea of carrying three catchers but when 'tek is one of them I think the only thing worse than carrying three catchers is not doing it.

I can't see keeping 3 catchers unless Papi walks. Lava would probably DH a lot, and Salty could even play some 1B.

If Papi stays, like I hope he does, there are basically 4 choices:

1) Sign Vtek and start Lava in AAA to build his catching skills.2) Sign Vtek and start Salty in AAA (last option) or trade Salty.3) Sign another C as a bridge to Lava/Salty's independence.4) Sign nobody and go with Salty/Lava and pray all the decade long numbers were just a fluke.

Assuming they sign Ortiz (full time non-positional DH) and if they do keep 3 catchers, you really limit your bench. It means you only have one back up infielder and one back up outfielder. Unless they keep 11 pitchers, it will never happen.

Ooops. I didn't see your post until after I posted mine. You are right.

Its funny how the CERA believers feel that each of the few games Tek catches is highly consequential to the teams winning, yet they did not care that Tito consistently gave games away year in and year out by over-resting his players.

Its funny how the CERA believers feel that each of the few games Tek catches is highly consequential to the teams winning, yet they did not care that Tito consistently gave games away year in and year out by over-resting his players. Things that make you go "hmmmmmm."Posted by BurritoT

I'm a CERA and other "catcher relevant" issues "believer", and I was also critical of Tito about resting players too much and conditioning our starters to only go 5 IP.I was also critical of his line-ups and a few other things. I also care that poor SS fielding over the years has lost us many a game.

I've said MORE than once that if house cleaning is going to occur, then fire Tuck and hire Varitek(with all his 'expertise') as the bullpen catching coach. Then, he would be available for EMERGENCY use only if necessary and tudor Salty and Lav.

No offense to anyone, but I'd take Napoli with his 'terrible' defense, 'terrible' arm and offense over Varitek.

Incidentally, I've changed my mind on Lowrie. You have to admit that Softy was right. Lowrie is just way too fragile and is utility as best. Salty called it. We've got to give credit where credit is due and should have traded him when his value was high.

moonslav, actually I don't. On a different thread I apologized for wasting your time. I explained why I stood up to bullies like Burittoo. That thread gives my side of the story. I appreciate if you read it; it puts all my posts in proper context. Thank you moonslav59 for providing us with thoughtfull and intelligent posts.

Burrito is not a bully. I have disagreed with him 20 times for every time I agree, but he is not a bully.

You are still calling him a bully now, so your apology for name-calling rings a little hollow to me. I did flip through some of your apology thread earlier today and thought you were being mostly sarcastic. If not, I hope you stick to your pledge to try and be more civil. We all go overboard from time to time, myself included.

Incidentally, I've changed my mind on Lowrie. You have to admit that Softy was right. Lowrie is just way too fragile and is utility as best. Salty called it. We've got to give credit where credit is due and should have traded him when his value was high.

His value was never high. I doubt we ever could have gotten anything great for him, but this might be softy's closest thing to being right in about 16 months.

Jed's always been about potential and short spurts of fine hitting. He's never been a good fielder, and many of us recognized it even during his errorless season (half season, rather).

He's still just 27. As far as I know, he's really had just 2 (3?) injuries and mono. The hand injury lingered, but they often do.

No offense to anyone, but I'd take Napoli with his 'terrible' defense, 'terrible' arm and offense over Varitek.

Incidentally, I've changed my mind on Lowrie. You have to admit that Softy was right. Lowrie is just way too fragile and is utility as best. Salty called it. We've got to give credit where credit is due and should have traded him when his value was high.

No one in their right minds would take Varitek over any backup catcher who can actually finish a season off the shelf, much less Napoli.

Lowrie windfall trade window is closed. Ellsbury windfall window will also soon close. Once Ellsbury leaves Pedroia and AGon for FA, assuming Cherington is stupid enough to retain after career year, Babe Ruth, I mean Ellsbury will meet Grissom.

Perfect time to offer Ellsbury and another farm player or two that is duplicative and the Dodgers need, then extend Kemp instead of paying 2 years and about 12 to 14M to bid on Ellsbury in FA. Yankees will sign Kemp if the Red Sox or other big market team doesn't trade for and extend him. Dodgers are at least 2 years or more from being contenders and Kemp is not going to discount and skip FA in his final season with the Dodgers.

No offense to anyone, but I'd take Napoli with his 'terrible' defense, 'terrible' arm and offense over Varitek. Incidentally, I've changed my mind on Lowrie. You have to admit that Softy was right. Lowrie is just way too fragile and is utility as best. Salty called it. We've got to give credit where credit is due and should have traded him when his value was high. No one in their right minds would take Varitek over any backup catcher who can actually finish a season off the shelf, much less Napoli. Lowrie windfall trade window is closed. Ellsbury windfall window will also soon close. Once Ellsbury leaves Pedroia and AGon for FA, assuming Cherington is stupid enough to retain after career year, Babe Ruth, I mean Ellsbury will meet Grissom. Perfect time to offer Ellsbury and another farm player or two that is duplicative and the Dodgers need, then extend Kemp instead of paying 2 years and about 12 to 14M to bid on Ellsbury in FA. Yankees will sign Kemp if the Red Sox or other big market team doesn't trade for and extend him. Dodgers are at least 2 years or more from being contenders and Kemp is not going to discount and skip FA in his final season with the Dodgers.Posted by hankwilliams

No offense to anyone, but I'd take Napoli with his 'terrible' defense, 'terrible' arm and offense over Varitek. Incidentally, I've changed my mind on Lowrie. You have to admit that Softy was right. Lowrie is just way too fragile and is utility as best. Salty called it. We've got to give credit where credit is due and should have traded him when his value was high. No one in their right minds would take Varitek over any backup catcher who can actually finish a season off the shelf, much less Napoli. Lowrie windfall trade window is closed. Ellsbury windfall window will also soon close. Once Ellsbury leaves Pedroia and AGon for FA, assuming Cherington is stupid enough to retain after career year, Babe Ruth, I mean Ellsbury will meet Grissom. Perfect time to offer Ellsbury and another farm player or two that is duplicative and the Dodgers need, then extend Kemp instead of paying 2 years and about 12 to 14M to bid on Ellsbury in FA. Yankees will sign Kemp if the Red Sox or other big market team doesn't trade for and extend him. Dodgers are at least 2 years or more from being contenders and Kemp is not going to discount and skip FA in his final season with the Dodgers.Posted by hankwilliams

We'll never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest

1) If the Dodgers are 2 years away from contending, they would trade Kemp for prospects and not a guy that will leave them in 2 years. Silly.2) Trading 2 years of Jacoby for 1 year of Kemp makes no sense whatsoever.

3) If we can not afford to pay $20M/yr for Jacoby, why will we suddenly have the money to sign Kemp? (A year earlier. A year we have to try and keep Papi and Paps and Scutty and fill 2 starting pitcher slots, 2 relievers, and RF.)

4) Why would Kemp want to play for the "racist city" softy calls or implies it nearly every week?

1) If the Dodgers are 2 years away from contending, they would trade Kemp for prospects and not a guy that will leave them in 2 years.Silly.

Because you are an idiot who can't read. I said the Dodgers would get one or two prospects if that is what they required. I exempted specific prospects but left duplicative prospects and Lowrie that the Dodgers could pick from.

So, for our resident board idiot, let me spell it out again:

1. Dodgers get Ellsbury for 2 years at about 5 to 7M a year and 12 to 14M total + their choice of one, or two if they require it, from Lowrie or anyone on the Red Sox farm except Middlebrooks, Kalish, Ranaudo, Reddick, Iglesias, Lavarnway, Barnes, Jacobs and Bradley.

For the idiot poster, that means the Dodgers cut payroll for 2012 by about 3 to 5M and (in the unlikely event they emerge from bankcruptcy and extend Kemp) 2013 by about 15M

Dodgers get:

Ellsbury for 2 years (cut payroll for OF 2 years) + 1 or 2 their choice from

2) Trading 2 years of Jacoby for 1 year of Kemp makes no sense whatsoever.

Sure it does, idiot. Offering Timmy T-Ball million FA contract makes no sense whatsoever. Red Sox are not going to extend Ellsbury and have Crawford. Extending Kemp makes total sense, perfect fit for Fenway and with AGon long term.

3) If we can not afford to pay $20M/yr for Jacoby, why will we suddenly have the money to sign Kemp? (A year earlier. A year we have to try and keep Papi and Paps and Scutty and fill 2 starting pitcher slots, 2 relievers, and RF.)

Red Sox can afford to pay Jacoby 20M/yr for 2014. But it would be more stupid than offering Crawford 20M/yr. It is not going to happen.

Follow along, for you, dummy:

Drew and Cameron off books at 21.5 million Ellsbury off books at 2.4 million (going up to about 5 to 7M for 2012)Ortiz does not change budget because already on books for 12.5M Papelbon already on 2011 books for 12M does not change 2012 from 2011

2012 Kemp 10 to 12M per arbitration (see Agon for you dummy)

2012 Ortiz 12.5 M (include a mutual option at 8M buyout 2M ortiz is not getting 14.5M guaranteed by any team except maybe Yankees over 2 years and the Red Sox can simply match 2 years which will be lower base)

2012 Papelbon 13 to 15M (offer 2 years and 26 to 30M or No if market 3 years)

Net 2012 difference from 2011 for Kemp over Ellsbury and return of Ortiz and Papelbon is :

2012 Kemp over Ellsbury cost increase about 3 to 5M2012 Ortiz over Ortiz 2011 1.5M max increase or less depending upon market2012 Papelbon over Papelbon 2011 1M to 3M increase

For these players, net 2012 increase is 5.5M to max of 9.5M21.5M from Drew & Cameron leaves 12.5M to 16.5M apply to other 12 costs

BTW: Scutaro 6M option should be declined. Scutaro will be lucky to find 1 to 2M 1 year contract for a 36 year old SS/2B with recent injury history and arm strength decline with spiked Fenway plate numbers, so he may have to use 3M player option. Red Sox should sign a veteran defensive SS for nor more than one year and 1M if Scutaro finds a sucker elsewhere. I expect Scutaro will be back because market will not be kind to him unless Theo needs a SS;)

4) Why would Kemp want to play for the "racist city" softy calls or implies it nearly every week?

It is called a trade, dummy. Kemp cannot block a trade, and will not turn down a 20M to 22M 140 to 154M 2013 to 2019 extension (age 34 for final year)

Now, are you going to go another year of Crawbust and "Cudyer" or Mac and advocate for CJ Wilson and Wastefield FA contract offers. Or are you going to lock up the best young hitting combination in AGon and Kemp (Youk is aging out and did not get the job done in 2011 on a team that had an offense that was inconsistent and had many blowout offense wins but too many lows. Yankees will end up with Kemp if Kemp hits FA.

Lackey should remind you (I said no more than 3 years and 30M offer) that starting pitching is about a few superstars who rarely hit the trade or FA market and the need to have competent coaches and scouts to develop pitching depth on the farm. Wakefield is a manifest source of embarrassment in this department.

The Fa and trade market in 2012 is not a pitcher value market, as usual.

Best way for the Red Sox to proceed is to not be fooled by aggregate 2011 season offense numbers and look to improve an offense in a league that rewards an offense that is powerful in the middle and deep from top to near bottom.

Wilson is no superstar and even if Papelbon finds a 3 year market (Red Sox should say no to that), Wilson should not be valued at more than 3 years and 45M.

Red Sox need to sign 2 or 3 FA veterans to one year incentive type deals, and I have provided specifics on names and contract offers for the 9 or 10 starting pitching profiles depth for 2012. Wakefield is not one, though a minor league only contract would be fine for Wakefield, where he can be shuttled back and forth from AAA to his old entitlement country club.

He should have taken care of the cubhouse and he didn't for whatever reason. What's that C on his jersey again?Posted by MichFan

I don't put that on jason though. Pretty hard for a back-up catcher who isnt even really playing by September, and when he is he is batting, er, nothing to carry any weight in matters of leadership. It was a sign of the times. he wore the C because he had for a good while, back when he deserved it, and its hard to take that away. I don't know. End of an era. Out with the old, in with new. If anyone wears the C now (they really oughta just drop that idea anyway) it should be Pedey.

The "C" makes him responsible to police his fellow country club Union members. He was an abject failure in leadership, along with being physically unable to finish a season as a back-up catcher for the 2nd consecutive season. Varitek is totally washed up, and has zero clubhouse or performance credibility.