Author
Topic: A First Cause Argument (Read 8272 times)

think about this: through science we know that we live in a cause and effect universe, in other words our universe is like a domino effect. just like in a line of dominos, one domino falls on another domino which falls on another domino causing it to fall and then that domino falls on anther domino and the pattern repeats itself all the way through the line. that is how our universe functions; cause and effect cause and effect cause and effect, anyone who studies science knows that this is true. we see this happen, for example, in the water cycle, water on the earth is caused to be evaporated into the air because of the heat applied to it from the sun made the water hot enough to evaporate into the air, then in the air it forms a cloud with other evaporated molecules of water and eventually is caused to fall back to the earth because of condensation, air temperature, etc. and the cycle goes on for as long as we have ever known. now how does the first domino fall in the first place? well an outside force that is not restricted within the domino line pushes the first domino, for example this could be a human hand pushing the domino. now then the universe following the laws of cause and effect in the exact same way a line of dominos does, what outside force caused the "first domino" to fall? evolution says it was the big bang but that process is still stuck within the confinements of the laws of cause and effect or "within the Domino line", the big bang says that all energy was brought together into the size of a small dot. the problem with that is something has to have caused the all the energy to come together into a tight space and then causing it to explode into a universe of today. so then what brought or caused all the energy of the universe to come together? maybe it was a black hole? but then what caused the black hole to form? this cycle goes on and on and on and will forever as long as you work with a natural process that is, as we all know, bound by the laws of the universe. the only logical answer is that something from outside the laws of cause and effect caused the cause and effect, essentially being an "uncaused causer" or a "god", notice i did not say christian god, or buddiest god, or Muslim god; i haven't dealt with religion but rather explained why some type of god figure or entity logically has to exist and exist outside the laws of our natural processes to allow (cause) them to take place in the first place. if there is a flaw in my logic please respond as to what it is and why, i will gladly listen and we can properly debate the argument in logical methods[/quote]

Ok, I am quiet new, but this appears to be an infinite regress kind of argument . That X caused Y then you must ask what caused X and then what caused that X and what caused that X, ect...

Evolutions does not equal the Big Bang. They are two different things. Evolution explains how life changed over time and the Big Bang explains how the Universe got started. Abiogenesis is about how the inorganic can give way to life.

What is your objections to things arising through a natural process? Why do you feel there has to be an intelligence behind what created the Universe and life?

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Before you believe anything always look for the beLIEve hidden within - VacuusMonastica

At any given moment, I open my eyes and exist. And before that, during all eternity, what was there? Nothing. - Ugo Betti

No, the Theory of Evolution doesn't say that at all. The following is the definition of evolution from the UC Berkeley website:

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Biological evolution, simply put, is descent with modification. This definition encompasses small-scale evolution (changes in gene frequency in a population from one generation to the next) and large-scale evolution (the descent of different species from a common ancestor over many generations). Evolution helps us to understand the history of life.

Where in that definition is the mention of anything involving the Big Bang?

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but that process is still stuck within the confinements of the laws of cause and effect or "within the Domino line", the big bang says that all energy was brought together into the size of a small dot. the problem with that is something has to have caused the all the energy to come together into a tight space and then causing it to explode into a universe of today. so then what brought or caused all the energy of the universe to come together? maybe it was a black hole? but then what caused the black hole to form?

Are you a physicist or cosmologist? If not, then how can you academically comment on such things?

think about this: through science we know that we live in a cause and effect universe, in other words our universe is like a domino effect.

No.

Not everything in this universe has a cause. There are random, uncaused and unpredicatable events occurring in the universe all the time, particularly when you observe it at quantum levels (i.e. the very smallest of the small). Atom decay is a fine example a random uncaused event that happens all the time.

Atom decay explains that the nucleus of an atom will randomly, without cause, emit a cluster of particles, losing energy. Because it's entirely random, it's impossible to predict when a particular atom will decay.Click here for more info on Atom decay: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioactive_decay

Quantum Mechanics has also developed scientific theories that describe what happens in the empty space inside the smallest particles.

I highly recommend you watch a lecture by Dr. Lawrence Krauss, one of the top Theoretical Physicists in the world, called "A Universe From Nothing". I've put it at the end of my post. It's an hour long but worth every second. Krauss makes it so that it's not boring at all but rather fascinating instead.

Around minute 20:00 he explains that 'nothing' is actually something. Inside the empty space of a proton (the empty space in between the quarks) there are fields of virtual particles popping in and out of existence for extremely short periods of time. As they spontaneously appear, they tend to do so in opposite pairs that cancel each other out almost immediately.

These virtual particles contribute 90% of the mass of the proton. So basically, 90% your body's mass is attributed to the random, uncaused appearance of virtual particles within the empty space between the particles that make up all the atoms in your body!

Your domino effect analogy only applies if you view a very small fraction of the universe. The one we deal with daily. The universe is a lot more than what your intuition tells you. Its properties and behavior at quantum levels are extremely counter-intuitive to us.

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now then the universe following the laws of cause and effect in the exact same way a line of dominos does, what outside force caused the "first domino" to fall?

Like I said, uncaused random events occur all the time. No outside forces required.

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evolution says it was the big bang

The Big Bang theory deals with an event that occurred approx 13.75 billion years ago that lead to the formation of the universe we know today.

Abiogenesis deals with how life arises from inorganic matter.

The theory of Evolution explains the processes by which diversity and complexity of life (already existing) and how it changes over time.

They are 3 seperate things. From now, please treat them as such.

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the big bang says that all energy was brought together into the size of a small dot. the problem with that is something has to have caused the all the energy to come together into a tight space and then causing it to explode into a universe of today.

No. It doesn't say it was "brought together". It says that all matter and energy in the known universe was once in a very hot very dense state that was microscopically small. This is sometime called the "singularity". The Big Bang is the event where this singularity to began to rapidly expand. It has continued to expand to what it is today, the known universe.

NOTE: There wasn't actually an explosion as in "BANG!" ... it was was just the beginning of a very rapid expansion.

By saying it was "brought together" you are implying two things:

a) That it was somehow in a state where everything was not all together before it was all together ... which is false and unjustified.

b) That something cause it to come toegther before the big bang happened... which is false and unjustified.

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the only logical answer is that something from outside the laws of cause and effect caused the cause and effect, essentially being an "uncaused causer" or a "god"

How do you jump from an uncaused cause to a causer or a god? You are assuming that it must be an intelligent agent of some sort and you have absolutely no basis to make that assumption.

Like I said, the universe already has "uncaused causes" happening within it all the time. If you watch that lecture, you'll see that 'nothing' will always lead to 'something'. There is absolutely no need for a "god" of any kind for this universe to exist. Everything has a natural, scientific explanation.

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if there is a flaw in my logic please respond as to what it is and why, i will gladly listen and we can properly debate the argument in logical methods

1) Welcome to the forum2) Please read the forum rules 3) It's ok to use big words like, evaporation, condensation and precipitation.4) It's preferable to use paragraphs (makes it easier to read).5) Study up on the subject b4 making a thread.6) Be open to changing your mind, based upon the facts.

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Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birdsMailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

the only logical answer is that something from outside the laws of cause and effect caused the cause and effect, essentially being an "uncaused causer" or a "god"

First of all, I add my voice to those who implore you to use paragraphs, punctuation, et cetera. Also that you need to learn some basic science. Evolution says nothing about the Big Bang, as has been pointed out.

Now, regarding just this part, which is about all I could pluck out of your wall of text:

If everything must have a cause, then god must have a cause. If anything can exist without a cause, it may just as well be the universe as god. If, however, you insist that everything in the universe must have a cause, but that something outside the universe can exist without a cause, then you are committing the logical fallacy known as "special pleading", which you might want to read up on. I'd give a link, but I think I'd rather see whether you're able to find any information on your own.

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[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]: Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

.....something from outside the laws of cause and effect caused the cause and effect, essentially being an "uncaused causer" or a "god", notice i did not say christian god, or buddiest god, or Muslim god; i haven't dealt with religion but rather explained why some type of god figure or entity logically has to exist and exist outside the laws of our natural processes to allow (cause) them to take place in the first place. if there is a flaw in my logic please respond as to what it is and why, i will gladly listen and we can properly debate the argument in logical methods

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Even assuming all the rest were without flaw (which it ain't, as has been explained)..... can YOU explain in what way something outside the laws of cause and effect would operate in any way that would NOT be completely random?

In other words, even if your uncaused causer god existed and created the universe, if it is so random an entity that it can make effect without requiring cause (or motivation), then in what way should it be granted title of "god", as opposed to "random pointless thing"?

think about this: through science we know that we live in a cause and effect universe, in other words our universe is like a domino effect. just like in a line of dominos, one domino falls on another domino which falls on another domino causing it to fall and then that domino falls on anther domino and the pattern repeats itself all the way through the line. that is how our universe functions; cause and effect cause and effect cause and effect, anyone who studies science knows that this is true.

here we go with the special pleading.....

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we see this happen, for example, in the water cycle, water on the earth is caused to be evaporated into the air because of the heat applied to it from the sun made the water hot enough to evaporate into the air, then in the air it forms a cloud with other evaporated molecules of water and eventually is caused to fall back to the earth because of condensation, air temperature, etc. and the cycle goes on for as long as we have ever known. now how does the first domino fall in the first place?

yep, yep, here it comes....

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well an outside force that is not restricted within the domino line pushes the first domino, for example this could be a human hand pushing the domino. now then the universe following the laws of cause and effect in the exact same way a line of dominos does, what outside force caused the "first domino" to fall?

here it is!

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evolution says it was the big bang but that process is still stuck within the confinements of the laws of cause and effect or "within the Domino line", the big bang says that all energy was brought together into the size of a small dot. the problem with that is something has to have caused the all the energy to come together into a tight space and then causing it to explode into a universe of today. so then what brought or caused all the energy of the universe to come together? maybe it was a black hole? but then what caused the black hole to form? this cycle goes on and on and on and will forever as long as you work with a natural process that is, as we all know, bound by the laws of the universe.

Please do just a little research on modern theories rather than casting about randomly. Yes, things could be a cycle. And we see no need for any "god".

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the only logical answer is that something from outside the laws of cause and effect caused the cause and effect, essentially being an "uncaused causer" or a "god", notice i did not say christian god, or buddiest god, or Muslim god; i haven't dealt with religion but rather explained why some type of god figure or entity logically has to exist and exist outside the laws of our natural processes to allow (cause) them to take place in the first place.

No, that is not the "only logical answer". It's the one you want becuase it supports your religion, whatever it is. If your god exists outside of the universe, how can it interact with it? How does time pass for it? Why must it react to puny humans?

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if there is a flaw in my logic please respond as to what it is and why, i will gladly listen and we can properly debate the argument in logical methods

which I fear really means "we can properly debate only if you agree I'm logical".

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"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

Nothing from swissbliss66 yet. He hasn't logged back in since the day he joined. I don't expect a reply to my post at this point . Much less one of admission that the first cause argument is flawed and has been thoroughly debunked.

Afadly, I seem to recall, actually addressed this in one of his many ravings. I don't think he succeeded, but he did at least give it a go - albeit only so his Allah could be seen as more logical than the Trinity.

think about this: through science we know that we live in a cause and effect universe, in other words our universe is like a domino effect. just like in a line of dominos, one domino falls on another domino which falls on another domino causing it to fall and then that domino falls on anther domino and the pattern repeats itself all the way through the line. that is how our universe functions; cause and effect cause and effect cause and effect, anyone who studies science knows that this is true. we see this happen, for example, in the water cycle, water on the earth is caused to be evaporated into the air because of the heat applied to it from the sun made the water hot enough to evaporate into the air, then in the air it forms a cloud with other evaporated molecules of water and eventually is caused to fall back to the earth because of condensation, air temperature, etc. and the cycle goes on for as long as we have ever known. now how does the first domino fall in the first place? well an outside force that is not restricted within the domino line pushes the first domino, for example this could be a human hand pushing the domino. now then the universe following the laws of cause and effect in the exact same way a line of dominos does, what outside force caused the "first domino" to fall? evolution says it was the big bang but that process is still stuck within the confinements of the laws of cause and effect or "within the Domino line", the big bang says that all energy was brought together into the size of a small dot. the problem with that is something has to have caused the all the energy to come together into a tight space and then causing it to explode into a universe of today. so then what brought or caused all the energy of the universe to come together? maybe it was a black hole? but then what caused the black hole to form? this cycle goes on and on and on and will forever as long as you work with a natural process that is, as we all know, bound by the laws of the universe. the only logical answer is that something from outside the laws of cause and effect caused the cause and effect, essentially being an "uncaused causer" or a "god", notice i did not say christian god, or buddiest god, or Muslim god; i haven't dealt with religion but rather explained why some type of god figure or entity logically has to exist and exist outside the laws of our natural processes to allow (cause) them to take place in the first place. if there is a flaw in my logic please respond as to what it is and why, i will gladly listen and we can properly debate the argument in logical methods

I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who literally said "holy shit" out loud when presented with this post. Followed by "my eyes!" I would post a rebuttal, but eyes seriously hurt just by looking at this.

Evolutions does not equal the Big Bang. They are two different things. Evolution explains how life changed over time and the Big Bang explains how the Universe got started. Abiogenesis is about how the inorganic can give way to life.

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