I'm not trying to lose games either, I'm trying to clean up the mess BC left the team with and build a championship contender. But everything I say seems to mean 'tank' to you. So I guess it's #championshiporbust time for Apollo?

I'm not trying to lose games either, I'm trying to clean up the mess BC left the team with and build a championship contender. But everything I say seems to mean 'tank' to you. So I guess it's #championshiporbust time for Apollo?

Come on, it's even in the thread title. There is a poll at the top of the page. Nine people voted for it so far. I'm not going to pick through the behemoth to find you posts but they're in here; people talking about tanking for the 2014 draft; shedding cap so that the team can use flexibility to overpay new players.

I think you have a cognitive distortion or tunnel vision going on with the topic of tanking.

I've thrown out more proposals than likely anyone because it is something I enjoy doing. I don't think I've thrown out anything that was serious that did not have financial flexibility coming back IN ADDITION to proven young talent and draft pick(s).

I voted for tanking but my idea of tanking always has financial flexibility, proven young talent (aka rookie deals), prospects, and picks coming back. The Stuckey/CV thing is/was garbage and I don't remember anyone taking it seriously. I know any notion of doing it from my end had Monroe and KCP coming back.

Tanking for the 2014 draft (i.e. increasing odds of higher pick) is one strategy. Acquiring other picks is another - easier said than done, I know.

Using flexibility to overpay new players is definitely NOT on the agenda either. That is the situation the Raptors currently find themselves in (Kleiza, Fields, Gay, DD and previously Calderon, Kapono). Why get in to that situation again? Flexibility can be used for more than free agency. Trades are another possibility. Taking advantage of other teams financial difficulties (like Cleveland did with Memphis) is another option.

A lot of this discussion came from the SVG article I posted and the follow up Craiger had. One thing I would point out with regards to Houston is they ALWAYS kept financial flexibility over the last couple of years in addition to stockpiling cheap assets. That is one aspect many over look. They had cap space each summer to attack free agency and made 'unbalanced' trades that were driven primarily by finances because they had the required flexibility to help other franchises and cheap assets to send back. Given Toronto's state, they don't have that financial flexibility or cheap assets to take such an approach. Even Indiana, who so many look at as a possible blueprint for Toronto, had serious financial flexibility prior to acquiring Hill and giving Hibbert his extension. Right now Raptors have few cheap assets worth parting with (Ross and picks are essentially it) and no flexibility.

I'm not questioning your opinion or your principles as you mentioned in earlier post. To each his/her own. But in saying tanking goes against your principles that would certainly be a year by year outlook. However what if the outlook is 2-3 seasons? If management comes to the conclusion, as they have, that a team is not a championship contender, is likely to struggle to make the playoffs year in and year out, and does not have the required financial flexibility or assets to change the fate, wouldn't it be in the teams and fans best interests to attempt to look at what might be 2-3 years down the road versus the very near term?

To give an example of what I mean by tanking - because I did vote for it - lets say it is January and the Raptors find themselves in 7-11 land along with a team like Charlotte. This is the type of trade I envision happening:

Raptors end the season losing much more than they win getting their own pick in the top 7 and hopefully having two more picks in the 9-15 range. Those two 9-15 pick range picks might be able to get the Raptors another top 7 pick - who knows? Then of course there is this: http://hoopshype.com/articles/sierra...to-their-teams

I am saying the above is likely but just to give you an idea of what I would expect in return to start the rebuilding/tanking process. I am definitely not down for trading Gay for CV/Stuckey and letting everything ride on the Raptors pick alone. Forget that.

The Raptors are in a unique situation where they have the hardest piece to acquire in basketball (starting C) locked up on a rookie deal for 3 years and locked up for up to 8. They really are in a terrific situation to rebuild/tank. Most teams rebuilding/tanking are looking to find a piece like JV. Rarely do teams start a rebuild/tank with a piece like JV already on the roster.

Your definition of tanking is different from a lot of people in here and all of the media in that case. Tanking is operating under the intention of losing to enhance the odds in the lotto.

The moves Ujiri makes may lead to the team taking a step back but they may improve too. The point is he's making decisions with long term improvement in mind and not short term losing. He's not making plays for the lotto. He said that already.

Tanking means intentionally losing so if you're not for that then you must be for tinkering. Tinkering means making changes but does not imply making changes with short term losing being a primary short term objective.

He kind of has to say that, doesn't he?

He'd get the wrath of Stern/Silver otherwise and alienate many fans and corporate sponsor with any loser talk. Everyone knows what Philly is doing but you do not hear anything coming from them saying they are trying to lose.

I'm not trying to lose games either, I'm trying to clean up the mess BC left the team with and build a championship contender. But everything I say seems to mean 'tank' to you. So I guess it's #championshiporbust time for Apollo?

No, I'm just trying to get the point across as to the definition of "tank" because some people sound confused.

I want people to understand that tanking means trying to lose. The intent is the key factor here. I don't mind them stepping back or forward this year. I'm putting faith in MJ's system but what I do not respect is intentional losing. I think it's a big "F you" to the fans that's presented on a fancy doily and some people eat it all up. I've seen enough of that to know that when a team comes out with the indirect tanking language red flags should be going up. Those teams who are tanking can't get it done like the good teams, that's why they're doing that. They're trying to luck into an edge because they can't produce their own. When they do hit the jackpot more times than not it's short lived because they don't have the game to follow it up (Cavs are a prime example. Orlando is another example).

I think MJ has game. He's going to do the right thing and if that leads to the lotto then he'll make the best of that and if it doesn't he'll make the best of that.

Matt52 wrote:

He kind of has to say that, doesn't he?

He'd get the wrath of Stern/Silver otherwise and alienate many fans and corporate sponsor with any loser talk. Everyone knows what Philly is doing but you do not hear anything coming from them saying they are trying to lose.

If he was making plays for the lotto he wouldn't be signing guys who fit Casey's system perfectly and fill a big need. That signing was counter to tanking but makes a lot of sense to a team looking to improve over time and see that his coach has the pieces he needs for his system to run.

Well based on how things are going so far you're going to be greatly disappointed because I don't think you're going to get the stinker you really wish to see.

And the Raptors have rebuilt. It happened immediately after Carter left and again when Colangelo came in. If you disagree then go compare the rosters and then try to tell me otherwise.

Babcock made a bunch of changes and failed; he used a bunch of lotto picks. Drastic changes didn't occur right away due to bad contracts but from his start to his finish, that roster turned over a lot.

Colangelo made a bunch of changes and failed; he used a bunch of lotto picks and trades.

I don't either - and that is partly the problem.

But I think if the Raptors are sitting 21W-23L 45 games in to the season with a step forward taken by JV then the writing will be on the wall to everyone what the potential is for this team as currently constructed.

If he was making plays for the lotto he wouldn't be signing guys who fit Casey's system perfectly and fill a big need. That signing was counter to tanking but makes a lot of sense to a team looking to improve over time and see that his coach has the pieces he needs for his system to run.

Very true.

Another truth is the team was extremely weak at backup PG last season and Buycks is not a sure fire upgrade considering he has no NBA experience.

I have a feeling a lot of these topics will be hit many thousands of more times between now and February trade deadline. You can argue with others (or yourself in my case) until you are blue in the face which way MU is looking to go (keep or trade Gay/Lowry/DD). Both sides have solid arguments in my opinion.

No, I'm just trying to get the point across as to the definition of "tank" because some people sound confused.

No, you're trying to get people to follow your definition of "tanking" as it pertains to a poll with only 2 options in a thread about rebuilding or retooling. In combating all of my posts, you've overlooked that I haven't said tank, but rather said rebuild, overhaul, etc because I don't think tanking is an actual strategic option. But accepting your teams limitations and positioning it for the best moving forward, I call that building, but you want to fit it into the 2 category poll so you call it tanking.

Another truth is the team was extremely weak at backup PG last season and Buycks is not a sure fire upgrade considering he has no NBA experience.

I have a feeling a lot of these topics will be hit many thousands of more times between now and February trade deadline. You can argue with others (or yourself in my case) until you are blue in the face which way MU is looking to go (keep or trade Gay/Lowry/DD). Both sides have solid arguments in my opinion.

The PG spot is scary thin looking right now. When last season ended, the wish list was 3 things, a low post scorer, better 3 pt shooting and a back-up PG. Of those 3 things, we've added Steve Novak for 3pt shooting, but we still don't have a low post scorer (hoping for JV to consistently command double-teams in year 2 is a lot to ask) and we have no real back-up PG.

If the lotto was for 30 teams, each team having equal odds, would [Insert Team] have made those same moves?

If a frog had wings it wouldn't bump its ass when it hopped, so what's the point? The real world of the NBA not everything is equal. Not all teams have equal chance in the lottery just as not all teams are going to sign marquee free agents.

No, you're trying to get people to follow your definition of "tanking" as it pertains to a poll with only 2 options in a thread about rebuilding or retooling. In combating all of my posts, you've overlooked that I haven't said tank, but rather said rebuild, overhaul, etc because I don't think tanking is an actual strategic option. But accepting your teams limitations and positioning it for the best moving forward, I call that building, but you want to fit it into the 2 category poll so you call it tanking.

The thread title says that now but go look at the original post and look at the poll. I've approached this thread from the original theme and that was tanking vs. something else. If you're for something else then that's cool. I'm for something else as well.

But I think if the Raptors are sitting 21W-23L 45 games in to the season with a step forward taken by JV then the writing will be on the wall to everyone what the potential is for this team as currently constructed.

Of course, the downside of having certainty is that everybody else will know the potential of our trade pieces at that point and we're basically guaranteed to get less value.

The thread title says that now but go look at the original post and look at the poll. I've approached this thread from the original theme and that was tanking vs. something else. If you're for something else then that's cool. I'm for something else as well.

The original post and poll are not the same.

NoBan did the OP. NoBan's suggestions for tanking are exactly what I would not do. I'd rather be a tweaker (and even keep DD!) than do those.

I did the poll that was merged in to this thread. This is the thread the poll came from:

If a frog had wings it wouldn't bump its ass when it hopped, so what's the point? The real world of the NBA not everything is equal. Not all teams have equal chance in the lottery just as not all teams are going to sign marquee free agents.

That was my cap stone to my input on the tanking topic. I'm done with it.

Free agent won't come here because this team has stank for so long. This team isn't going to retain stars because this team continues to stink and the track record is not encouraging. They gotta get the stink out and keep it out. Then one day down the line the Raptors won't be known as an unreliable place for players to pursue their career aspirations. Consistently winning needs to be one of their long term priorities and it needs to happen soon, maybe not this coming season but soon; swinging for the fences at the risk of paying a large price if it doesn't work out must die with Colangelo's job in Toronto. I consider shooting for the #1 pick as swinging for the fences unless it's via trade(probably impossible).

If I were an NBA player I wouldn't sign here either. Who wants to play their career on a stinker?

Matt52 wrote:

The original post and poll are not the same.

NoBan did the OP. NoBan's suggestions for tanking are exactly what I would not do. I'd rather be a tweaker (and even keep DD!) than do those.

I did the poll that was merged in to this thread. This is the thread the poll came from:

But I think if the Raptors are sitting 21W-23L 45 games in to the season with a step forward taken by JV then the writing will be on the wall to everyone what the potential is for this team as currently constructed.

I think that alone sums up Masai's master plan.....with maybe a few less games. See if the nugget (no pun intended) of a team is there over 30 games. If we're .600 or better, let it grow. .500 doesn't cut it. Anything less and it's a fire sale with enough time left in the season to sink organically. Although given our luck, our first thirty games will probably include 28 at home against Boston, Philly, Phoenix and Utah.

So considering all mi is cra cra mo fo NoBan are for tanking meaning getting assets for raptor parts, what is your take on that subject?

Let this be a lesson to not text and talk.

@Apollo:

So considering the OP is cra cra and is the epitome of tanking in all the worst possible ways, what is your take on the subject with a slant that sees actual assets returned rather just a horrible season and cap space afterwards?

Another truth is the team was extremely weak at backup PG last season and Buycks is not a sure fire upgrade considering he has no NBA experience.

Well he's not finished yet and maybe he didn't like the options on the market? Maybe he sees something in Buycks that makes him confident he can be the second string PG? Hard to say. I do know what Tyler is though and he will help the boys in the paint a lot.

Matt52 wrote:

I have a feeling a lot of these topics will be hit many thousands of more times between now and February trade deadline. You can argue with others (or yourself in my case) until you are blue in the face which way MU is looking to go (keep or trade Gay/Lowry/DD). Both sides have solid arguments in my opinion.

I have a feeling you're right.

I'm not even sure what the sides are. I'm part of the camp who wants to see Ujiri make the right long term moves but not join in on the intentional race to the bottom of the standings; if the Raptors end up there anyway so be it but I don't how that can happen right now unless Ujiri goes against his own words and essentially dumps assets and trading Gay for expiring contracts and late first rounders is a dump in my opinion... And again, I don't want to see them dump because I think it's tanking.

One more thought. Ujiri might be thinking big picture with Gay. Gay will be of most value when he's on his final year because he's then marketable to more teams and greater demand means greater return on asset.

I'm not even sure what the sides are. I'm part of the camp who wants to see Ujiri make the right long term moves but not join in on the intentional race to the bottom of the standings; if the Raptors end up there anyway so be it but I don't how that can happen right now unless Ujiri goes against his own words and essentially dumps assets and trading him for expiring contracts and late first rounders is a dump in my opinion... And again, I don't want to see them dump because I think it's tanking.

Bold 1: I think you can make the right long term moves and not join intentional race to bottom. Maybe I'm idealistic or naive or foolish or worse.

Bold 2: I agree. However, I think any deal with Masai returns more than expiring crap and late first rounders. Charlotte and Cleveland are the teams to watch in my opinion.

What would you think of the imaginary trade I proposed: Kemba/Biyombo/Gordon (expiring)/Detroit 1st/Portland 1st for Lowry/Gay.