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I was speaking with a friend today who works for one of the big digital corporations. She mentioned that her company now has meditation rooms, yoga classes, and follows a philosophy called 'Search inside Yourself' (adapted from Google). She kept referring to the "awareness philosophy' that they are subscribing to.

It was kind of interesting to hear that these major corporations which create the stressful, rajasic work environment now are focusing on looking inward to counter the stress. I found it really odd. I hope it is not the start of the 'disneyfication' (or googlefication in this case) or dumbing down of spiritual search. Makes me even more grateful to Ramji and SW for teaching us traditional Vedanta.

Would love to hear any thoughts or if you've encountered anything like this in the corporate world.

This is a really good topic, one that I want to get back to very shortly, but it is coming up on my bedtime..lol...and I have a 'no screens 1 hour before sleep' rule. Time to shut off the tablet and let my brain chill before sleeping.

However, the short answer to, your question is, I believe,yes, this is Disneyfication and it is another commercialized scourge and plague.

"Large organisations such as Google, Apple, Sony, Ikea, the Department of Health and Transport for London have adopted mindfulness or meditation as part of their employee packages, claiming it leads to a happier workforce, increased productivity and fewer sick days. But could such a one-size-fits-all solution backfire in unexpected ways?“The measurement of our mental and emotional states at work is advancing rapidly at the moment,” he says, “and businesses are increasingly aware of the financial costs that stress, depression and anxiety saddle them with.”...Claire, a 37-year-old in a highly competitive industry, was sent on a three-day mindfulness course with colleagues as part of a training programme. “Initially, I found it relaxing,” she says, “but then I found I felt completely zoned out while doing it. Within two or three hours of later sessions, I was starting to really, really panic.” The sessions resurfaced memories of her traumatic childhood, and she experienced a series of panic attacks. “Somehow, the course triggered things I had previously got over,” Claire says. “I had a breakdown and spent three months in a psychiatric unit. It was a depressive breakdown with psychotic elements related to the trauma, and several dissociative episodes.”

Four and a half years later, Claire is still working part-time and is in and out of hospital. She became addicted to alcohol, when previously she was driven and high-performing, and believes mindfulness was the catalyst for her breakdown. Her doctors have advised her to avoid relaxation methods, and she spent months in one-to-one therapy. “Recovery involves being completely grounded,” she says, “so yoga is out.”

Hi Rick,What you say is fine. And it's also fine to have opinions and preferences about stuff happening in Mithya (as long as you are not slave to those opinions--i.e., the vasana does not bind). In fact, if one did not have preferences or opinions one would be like a zombie (and thankfully we Vedantins are far from zombies )

I was expressing an opinion about disneyfication of spirituality--but I can't say I'm too bothered by it. Google may corporatize spirituality or not--either way, as you say, it's all Ishvara .

In fact, I may be the only person in the US right now who is not terribly bothered about the outcome of our forthcoming presidential election. Although, I do happen to have opinions and preferences concerning the candidates .

My apologies, Rick if I was being flippant.I'll try to be more objective.

RIck wrote: It is just another thing that needs to be honoured and accepted as part of the expression of the "one person with three bodies" here in this apparent reality?

Yes, this is true. Everything in mithya is Ishvara unfolding.

And I do agree with you that being 'neutral' to what is unfolding is a very rational way to life. This is the qualification of dispassion.

Rick wrote: It's not upto us to call it anything or assign any kind of value judgements to it.

I think it's fine to have an opinion about mithya when you know clearly that it is mithya (that is when you can discriminate between mithya and satya). That way, even if you have an opinion you are not too bothered by the situation since you know that the situation is mithya. You also know who you are (satya) and that is all that matters ultimately.

I'm sure others will jump in and help out. But please don't hesitate to ask if you have another question.

Please see my comment above, I was attempting to offer something to your inquiry, not criticise you personally for having an opinion. I guess in the process wanted to kill 2 birds with one stone and raise a bit of a back and forth of ideas so I can also learn from you guys.

I should clarify that I did not feel criticized. I am also enjoying the back and forth!

PS apologies, I forgot to mention my interpretation of Isvaras role in this situation, and that would be that we actually need the dumbing down of spirituality just as much as we need reliable serious models like Vedanta. And contextually your comment is out of place because real spirituality of for those few and far between who are looking for liberation. The reality of it is that most, karmically are not even interested in liberation, therefore there is no need for, or will ever be a need for a serious models like Vedanta to be available to the "masses". Books like the Power Of Now and the new mindfulness craze seem to be enough for the means it's is required for, temporary cessation of symptoms. In this respect I don't think the situation should be termed Disneyfication because these methods do provide a service to those who are only ready to receive that kind of knowledge.

Thanks for this perspective and I basically agree with it. It is also very helpful in clarifying what you were trying to get at initially. For some reason, I initially thought you were saying that having opinions was not compatible with Vedanta which is why I was trying to address that in my replies. Apologies for that.

I actually first became familiar with the notion of 'nonduality' through Power of Now. I also concur that Vedanta will probably never have mass-appeal since it requires a high level of maturity.

However, what I find fascinating is that companies first create a highly stressful work culture and then offer spirituality as a way to cope.

But hopefully it may be a jumping off point for at least a few individuals who might be exposed to corporate spirituality and then make their way to serious spirituality (like to SW).

And Georg's point is also appreciated--in that practices like mindfulness allow higher levels of concentration and creativity which is good for the company and for the individual.

Hi RIck,I'm enjoying the discussion and it gave me a lot to contemplate on my run this morning. So thanks for that . Here are my thoughts for what they are worth:

The cognitive shifting from jiva to awareness decreases value judgements significantly. However, observations, opinions, preferences remain. But importantly, these opinions don't disturb peace of mind or cause suffering since one knows it's just Ishvara unfolding.

Now in my case, since assimilation is still ongoing, there are still some value judgements that I apply to my self (for example, when I worry about whether I'm parenting correctly)--these can disturb peace of mind, but still there is decreased suffering compared to before. Because, I know that essentially everything is OK.

So it seems to me that there may be a dichotomous scale for judgements/opinions. Before self-knowledge these can agitate the mind and cause suffering. After self-knowledge, they still exist (at least in my case) but they don't really agitate the mind or cause as much suffering. They are more like observations.

So now, regarding my observation that these companies may be creating a stressful environment. It was a value judgement but I am not tied to it (especially in light of new knowledge). I accept that I actually know very little about these companies (never having worked in one). I only know what my friends tell me. So, I'm glad to hear that the environment is not as stressful as it is made out to be . And as I said earlier, our conversation has given me reason to think that perhaps introducing even basic level mindfulness in the corporate world might even be a good thing as it might get a few seekers to explore more seriously.

Looks like there has been a lot of activity on this thread. My turn to dive in since I said I would a few days ago. Here are some thoughts...hopefully with some semblance of logic.

a) In one of James' Gita talks (Spain, I think) he said that you don't leave your valuables laying around in plain sight in order to keep them safe. However, he said that Vedanta (the gita's 'royal secret') is left 'on the coffee table' for all to see because few people understand its value. As such it's pretty safe and is probably never going to be subject to widespread popularity. The necessity of 'qualifications' is the deal breaker for many.

b) There is a difference between having opinions and believing those opinions to be true & REAL. Worse still is allowing those opinions to disturb the mind and promote adharmic actions. Self-realized people can have opinions, it is whether they are binding or not. It is true that applied self-knowledge will have a neutralizing effect but that will not, as Mira said, turn the enlightened into zombies. The idea that self-knowledge means we are opinion-less or are never critical is, I believe, a variant of the 'When I get moksha, I will be saintly/have no mind/no ego!' myth.

c) If you listen to or watch any of James' satsangs, it doesn't take long to realize that he likes to poke fun at 'the spiritual world'. As he says, it's not about attacking individual people but it is about attacking bad ideas and that it is his job as a traditional teacher to do that. If people have flaky ideas about enlightenment, Vedanta etc, then it is his role to clarify and sometimes that includes being critical and saying 'no!'

I particularly liked his point that spiritual people get upset if he calls someone a 'jerk'. "You can't do that! That's not spiritual!! I thought you were enlightened, but you are so judgmental!" He goes on to say that there is a difference between stating a fact and being judgmental. He said that in every culture in the world, there is the notion of someone 'acting like a jerk' and that everyone knows what that's like. Therefore, if someone is 'being a jerk', it is not judgmental to point that out. The original meaning of 'idiot' was someone who did not act in the interests of the greater good. Corrupt politicians? Idiots. Drunk drivers? Idiots. Sex offenders who descend upon disaster zones to abuse vulnerable people? Idiots. (And yes, it is Iswara....Iswara manifesting in the form of idiots.)

As to the point of 'Disneyfication', (and I could be wrong...ha ha..) I will make the case of it being a fact rather than a 'judgment'. If someone were to say (with a straight face) 'In America, they never, EVER take spiritual/metaphysical concepts, alter and commercialize them' then we can safely discount that with knowledge. Go look at 'The Secret' or how First Nations religious culture is bastardized and sold (plastic medicine syndrome) or any expensive guru, shamans with certificates, rapid enlightenment systems, people trademarking chi/prana/lifeforce energy etc. It would be very hard to say that this sort of thing doesn't happen. This is a fact, not a judgment.

Of course, as this occurs in Mithyaville then it's all zero-sum. There are effects and we can interpret them as being good or bad accordingly. As Georgs' linked article shows, that for all the cheer leading for how cool & progressive it is to have mindfulness at work, it's not suited to everyone and there could be examples of harm which, I have to say is distinctly un-reported.

My *personal opinion* is that regardless of whether these corporate meditation programs are any good or not, I am suspicious of the motivations. I think it's more to do with the typical rajasic tendencies of big business. Big, better, faster, more, jump on the latest trend. Right now there is a lot of interest (and money) in yoga, alternative medicine etc. If companies think that harnessing that interest will make them more profitable, then they will do so. I work in healthcare and have seen how insurance companies make token gestures to their members to appear 'progressive' and then screw the providers out of $$. When the next trend comes along in the next 5-10 years, which it will, it will be absorbed into corporate culture if the number crunchers say it's worthwhile to do so.

Given that 1/3 of the world's wealth is locked up in tax shelters, if large companies were so desperately concerned about people's well being, perhaps they could start by paying their fare share of taxes, some of which could be applied to the wider community in ways other than keeping a tiny clique of shareholders happy? (That's a bigger geopolitical issue but what the hey....lol...)

d)This a point I didn't see addressed in the exchange but I will offer. While it is very important for us to 'view things from the Self' etc, it is also important to keep in mind that while the Jiva and its apparent life are not REAL, they still EXIST. The Jiva and jiva life are non-separate from Self but they do exist within another order of the same non-dual reality. I cannot fail to show up to work and then tell my boss: "It's ok, everything is Iswara, there was no real Andrew to show up to work today, the clients are illusions and it's all a big dream in consciousness!"

By doing that, the Jiva boss fires Jiva Andrew who will then have problems paying his Jiva bills and explaining his literal idiocy to his Jiva wife. The cognitive shifting mentioned by Rick is part of the process but I would advise caution in a hard swinging from total mind/body complex identification to total 'Iswara' identification and ignore the fact that our jiva existence still has to play out in mithya. (This tends to be the classic neo error). Otherwise there is the risk of believing that we can absolve ourselves from any type of involvement with the manifest world. Krishna's point to Arjuna is 'either fight willingly or get dragged in to it, but either way, there's a fight coming and you don't get a 'get out Kurukshetre pass'.

Understanding the Self is part of the tradition, but so is understanding how the maya world works and how to function within it. While we can make a grand summary "It's all Iswara!" which will be true, we are likewise expected to do our duty and make our contributions. For example, James has said that he doesn’t have to teach as far as his own self-knowledge is concerned because it’s clear & rock solid. However, he loves the teachings and enjoys sharing so it is something for Jiva James to do – write a book, give satsang etc. This is his contribution. As a traditional teacher of Vedanta, he is duty bound to protect the tradition, preserve it and that can include pointing out errors and criticizing those who hijack or misrepresent teachings, especially when these gurus are exploitative. Yes, it’s true that crap gurus are Iswara too, but so are good gurus taking an ethical stand and calling people out on adharmic bullshit. (The occasional use of force to uphold dharma is the job of the kshatriya warrior caste after all.)

Being ‘free of opinions’ does not mean: ‘not having opinions’. It means understanding their lack of permanence, intrinsic value and not being compelled to act reflexively because of them. Same goes for any other kind of thought, feeling or emotion. Self realized or not, we are all going to have thoughts/feeling/opinions/beliefs to the end of our days. (Swami Tadatmananda said he just assumed that his guru, Swami Dayanada would have the same socio-political views as his own and was very surprised (at first) to find that he didn’t.)

Discrimination between satya and mithya is not the same thing as denying mithya – discrimination is in not being fooled by it. If it’s a hot day and I think there is water pooling on the road, I might be fooled by what is, in fact, heat haze. On closer investigation I discover that it was just that and not water. However, in the future, while I understand an illusory property of heat haze, it doesn’t cause the manifest phenomena to disappear. It just means that I relate to it differently. I say “It’s just haze” rather than “Hey, it’s a pool of water in the middle of the highway!”

As such, I do not think it is possible to have a forum for Jivas in which the communication is entirely objective and impersonal. That sounds like a denial of mithya rather than discrimination. However, Rick was not wrong in posting, not necessarily a ‘mistake’ as he suggested. I get the impression that he had a particular idea in mind in how he thought the forum jivas should behave and was then surprised when they didn’t conform to that picture….which is why we love karma yoga so much…lol…

This is a general forum for jivas to interact in. None of us (thankfully!) are making any great claims to being super self-actualized or anything like that, so the discussion will be of an interpersonal nature. If someone has a more precise, direct question then it may be best to direct that to one of the acknowledged teachers here at Shining World. Otherwise, all questions will be answered by one of the million Vedanta monkeys sat at their typewriters ; )

I`ve come on to this topic a bit late in the day as originally when it first came up, I wasn`t overly interested in it.

As I recall, Mira mentioned the current upsurge of interest in `mindfulness`and it`s uptake by business organisations and others as an adjunct to their modus operandi. the idea being apparently to relieve stress for the staff by a process of grounding . this can include formal meditation and/or simple mindfulness exercises taught in a pre worked out program. The reason as to why this should be effective and the end results seem to be rather clouded in vagueness.

I know a lot of Buddhists are upset about it and think that their meditation technique of minfulness is being purloined by businesses for the sake of business primarily.

Mira in her first post mentioned that she hoped that would not be " the start of the 'disneyfication' (or googlefication in this case) or dumbing down of spiritual search". I can`t say I thought that she was pushing some opinion of her`s here.

Andrew in his first post expressed quite a strong opinion or belief when he said that " the short answer to, your question is, I believe,yes, this is Disneyfication and it is another commercialized scourge and plague."

I bring up the `opinion` topic as you said ....

" What I was in fact "hoping for" in a discussion was a means to contemplate with other practitioners about the meaning of the teaching, instead I received what I interpreted to be a bunch of I statements defending ones position rather than a considered objective response to my question. I did have an expectation, but I didnt expect everyday Jiva activity on a forum dedicated to spiritual growth."

Strong stuff ! ok, so what was your question ? you said ....

" The point im making is that is it really conducive to enlightenment to critique ideas out of context with regards to the other spiritual paths out there (genuine or fraudulent)? For me it seems pointless to make a statement about the other paths now, it's Isvarsa business what they get upto, and I was also one of those people who believed in the validity of those systems. Some people need to start somewhere and most start at the bottom and work their way up, if they want. But in the end everyone is enlightened anyway, (if you know what I'm speaking of here) and there is no reason to critique average joe about their workplace mindfulness programme, its as it is, beautiful ignorance?"

Andrew made some very valid and pertinent points when he said...

" Being ‘free of opinions’ does not mean: ‘not having opinions’. It means understanding their lack of permanence, intrinsic value and not being compelled to act reflexively because of them. Same goes for any other kind of thought, feeling or emotion. Self realized or not, we are all going to have thoughts/feeling/opinions/beliefs to the end of our days. (Swami Tadatmananda said he just assumed that his guru, Swami Dayanada would have the same socio-political views as his own and was very surprised (at first) to find that he didn’t.) "

And..

" My *personal opinion* is that regardless of whether these corporate meditation programs are any good or not, I am suspicious of the motivations. I think it's more to do with the typical rajasic tendencies of big business. Big, better, faster, more, jump on the latest trend. Right now there is a lot of interest (and money) in yoga, alternative medicine etc. If companies think that harnessing that interest will make them more profitable, then they will do so. I work in healthcare and have seen how insurance companies make token gestures to their members to appear 'progressive' and then screw the providers out of $$. When the next trend comes along in the next 5-10 years, which it will, it will be absorbed into corporate culture if the number crunchers say it's worthwhile to do so. "

Mira said ....

" And yes, it's all Ishvara unfolding ."

Isn`t this just what you`re saying ? I don`t see why when she says it , it`s " bunch of I statements defending ones position rather than a considered objective response to my question " as opposed to when you say it, then it is what exactly ?

You mentioned earlier...

" I guess I was attempting the "cognitive" shifting from jiva to awareness perspective in the hopes the conversation would proceed on the level of the impersonal and free of opinion. ".

The daddy of all vedanta mahavakyas (great sayings) is Tat Tvam Asi...`You are that`. You can`t proceed on the level of the `impersonal` alone because the impersonal and personal are one. non dual. it`s not that `you`should be discarded so as to leave `That`alone ..the self, satya, but rather that self knowledge is that the jiva and awareness (not Ishwara) are one and the same.`Pure` awareness stands alone when Maya/Isvara/Ignorance is NOT operating. When Maya IS operating, then awareness with the subtle body constitutes jiva. It is still awareness....apparently Ignorant of it`s true nature...or not.As this is so, freedom is freedom not only FROM the jiva BUT, also freedom FOR the jiva.

That jiva ...you under the spell of personal Ignorance is full of opinions, beliefs, desires and aversions and longs to be freed from limitations. those beliefs and opinions are just the unexamined logic of jiva`s experience and keep him or her bound. They need to be brought fully into the light of day and this is the work of discrimination ....as you know. what are you going to discriminate awareness from if not your erroneous beliefs and opinions ? They need to be unearthed from the unconscious as they are the vasanas playing out and keeping Ignorance operating.

In the spirit of your " Any advances on my thoughts would be greatly appreciated !" statement, I would like to offer the following thoughts and observations.Starting with your first post, you said...

" I only mention this because I am listening to a piece on Jnana Yoga right now and have had what I imagine to be moments of "God actualising" lately - it's not upto us to call it anything or assign any kind of value judgements to it. It is just another thing that needs to be honoured and accepted as part of the expression of the "one person with three bodies" here in this apparent reality? "

It`s hard to engage with you on the above Rick. you have us at a disadvantage. ie. what exactly are your " moments of God actualization "...."imagined" or not ? If you say that you imagine them to be moments of God actualization, how can we connect with that. They are purely your subjective experiences which we have no access to. All experiences, even non dual experiences, are composed of two parts. the experience itself and the knowledge it brings. There`s no point in experiences without the understanding of their content.

The content can be totally missed, seen for what it is or, a subjective interpretation of the experience.Only you have the means of correctly interpreting what you experienced. If you could elaborate on or elucidate your experiences, we could possibly join you in an inquiry as to the truth or otherwise of these "God actualisations" .You said.

" it's not upto us to call it anything or assign any kind of value judgements to it. "

It depends on what " God actualisation " is or means to you. I`ve never come across this term in vedanta. how do you know God is actualised and who is the knower ?

We might even all come to the same conclusions but we, as opposed to you, can never be sure of what occured and will forever have opinions or beliefs about what occured. They might even be a correct belief but, a belief it will remain. none of us has access to each other`s minds. Only Isvara has access to all minds and the jiva never becomes Isvara. Isvara has all powers but jiva has only limited powers.

And that "one person with three bodies" you mentioned. There is no `one person` with three bodies.In fact, there isn`t a person. The jiva is just awareness identified with a subtle body. It`s just awareness apparently ignorant of it`s true nature when Maya is `operating`. That `person` is just an erroneous idea or notion held in the mind.

The teaching diagram that James uses is a`map` of your self. as pure awareness at the top with Maya being the dividing line to your apparent self below. That provides the platform for the Satya/ mithya teaching; The real and the apparently Real.

Below the Maya line, we have the three bodies and the great elements which represent imaginary veils to awareness in ever more subtle forms from bottom to top. none of the veils really cover awareness and on the chart, awareness is shown all around the `three bodies`. As awareness is limitless, this denotes that Ignorance...all that is below the line, is only a tiny speck of Ignorance.

Were it not so, and Ignorance covered the self, there would really be no escape from Samsara or Ignorance. On the chart, there is even a little awareness symbol right in the middle of the subtle body to show that it is not limited or hidden by the subtle body.

The Causal Body refers to Isvara / The Gunas which is the `causeless` cause of all existence when Maya is operating. You/awareness are said to be Nirguna...without the Gunas. again, none of the bodies are part of " one person with three bodies". The person is just a notion. it is the ego and is not Real. Real being defined as unchanging and ever present.

In your second post, you mentioned..

" Then there is also the gift of the intellect to cause us to "doubt" and not get drawn into appearances. ".

The intellect does not cause us to doubt. It is that part of ourselves where doubts are resolved. in that function it is called Buddhi. This is where discriminating and discerning happens.In the Teaching chart, Doubt comes under the heading of Mind in the triangle of Intellect, Mind and Ego that is the subtle body...not forgetting awareness in the middle. This is where Integrating, doubting and Emoting happens.You continued..

" Nobody here has mentioned that the idea may in fact bloom into a fruitful practice, so far all I've read here is what's wrong with it, which doesn't seem very balanced in my eyes."

I may be mistaken but from what I saw, nobody actually said that there is anything wrong with mindfulness practise. it`s rather a case of the practise being used in a possibly cynical way...the ulterior motive being financial gain ultimately.What you said about the practise possibly blooming into something fruitful is true. all this takes place in Mithya so there are going to be upsides and downsides. What would the practise bloom into anyway ? is there a valid teaching on which it relies ?George mentioned some of the pitfalls and they can be quite serious...very serious in fact. Where are the checks and balances ? It seems that pretty much anybody can set themselves up as an expert in mindfulness practise.

I know all this sounds rather negative but most of us have been around in the spiritual game for quite a while. a little cynicism is not such a bad thing. Reality teaches that there are many charlatans and scoundrels afoot who are only too happy to take advantage of naive and trusting people and often leave them hurt and confused more than they were to start with. There is a very good reason for Doubt and it is because in Mithya, things are rarely what they seem to be.

I do agree that Isvara has a balancing effect and often the `bad` works on behalf of the `good`. So, I agree again that it doesn`t pay to make judgement calls on behalf of Isvara as we only see the smaller picture and so often project our Ideas onto Isvara.

In your third post where you addressed Mira, you said..

" The way i`m seeing it from the teachings is that after gaining a certain degree of disidentification from the apparent, it strikes me that one sided, even prejudice opinions are going to be on the decrease if the teaching is doing its magic properly? ".

Yes, over time, certainly.And..

"I also see that Isavra is acting in the needs of the total and administering the karmic debts of those individuals. To write something off as corprotizing spirituality just sounds like one has given up on trying to see reality clearer and are reverting to old stereotypical interpretations of what is happening".

Yes and no. This is all happening in Mithya so there will be honest attempts at a good practise for the general good AND, the corporotyzing of spirituality. It`s no win, no lose situation in the end.Stereotyping doesn`t work for either view. it never does anyway !You continued..

" I forgot to mention my interpretation of Isvaras role in this situation, and that would be that we actually need the dumbing down of spirituality just as much as we need reliable serious models like Vedanta. And contextually your comment is out of place because real spirituality of for those few and far between who are looking for liberation. The reality of it is that most, karmically are not even interested in liberation, therefore there is no need for, or will ever be a need for a serious models like Vedanta to be available to the "masses".

Who is this "we" that needs the "dumbing down of spirituality" ? The `dumbed down ones` ? Ha ha..It`s not an elegant way of putting it but yes, teaching has to be tailored to the student and his level of understanding. You can`t teach astro physics to a sixteen year old student still going though the lower grades of education. Yes, vedanta isn`t for the "masses". They are not mature enough to see the need nor qualified enough to understand nor go through the discipline of a genuine sadhana or practise. So yes, Isvara although looking after the total, also looks after every individual in an individual way. It sees no dumbing down as Reality is non dual.You concluded with..

"Books like the Power Of Now and the new mindfulness craze seem to be enough for the means it's is required for, temporary cessation of symptoms. In this respect I don't think the situation should be termed Disneyfication because these methods do provide a service to those who are only ready to receive that kind of knowledge." .

Again, it`s yes and no. YES for those entering the "temporary relief" level and NO for those who have outgrown it and are struggling to `move on` and can`t. It`s not until you encounter a complete teaching that you can get beyond blinding and binding confusions. platitudes may work at first but later on when you need liberation, they are pergatory. How relieving is Temporary relief ? when you know it`s temporary, not at all.

In your later post to Andrew you said..

" How I interpreted my "God Actualization" moment was yes beliefs, specialness, opinion and all that is universal and impersonal. There is no reason to "come down" and play the Jiva role in apparent contrast to the "Isvara" role, its the same thing. Isvara is the divine jiva in all of us, all our characteristics even the ugly ones are the divine, "

First of all, Who interpreted your"God Actualization" ? I note you said `actualization` and not `realization`. Realization is indirect knowledge...knowledge of. it is still duality as there are two separate things. God and I.

Actualization is direct knowledge. It is non dual self knowledge. I am God, I am awareness. which one is it in your case ?

Interpretation and knowing are two different things. duality and non duality in that order...assuming we are talking about self knowledge.

When you said that you `interpreted`, you were speaking from the platform of Mithya, relative knowledge but you said that you had `God actualization`. This is a confusion.I would suggest that you probably had a non dual experience...You and God were one. This is Realization and not actualization as it is experience and not firm self knowledge.

There is further confusion when you said " my "God Actualization" moment was "yes beliefs, specialness, opinion and all that is universal and impersonal. " "opinion" ? isn`t `opinion` what you have been criticising so vehemently ? and yet here you equate it with "all that is universal and impersonal ! perhaps you are trying to say that during a non dual experience of the self, beliefs, opinions and all that is universal/impersonal do not contradict each other ?If Reality is non dual, which it is, this would indeed be true as everything in awareness is you.

When you said " There is no reason to "come down" and play the Jiva role in apparent contrast to the "Isvara" role, its the same thing." this would hold for the above mentioned reason... you and Isvara were one. note, you and Isvara and not you and awareness !

The next part is confusing when you said..

"There is no reason to "come down" and play the Jiva role in apparent contrast to the "Isvara" role, its the same thing. Isvara is the divine jiva in all of us, all our characteristics even the ugly ones are the divine, "

The bit that sticks out first for me is " Isvara is the divine jiva in all of us". How so ? and in that case, who is "us" ?

"All of us" equals jivas ? It can`t be awareness as awareness without Maya has no gunas. no god or jiva, and can only be the knower of God and jiva.

If us equals jivas, taking jiva to be the individual or Doer, how can Isvara be a `divine` jiva in us ?

In reality, only Isvara is the Doer...the jiva is `done` by Isvara. We as jivas are then actually IN Isvara and not the other way around. only in that instance can we say that " all our charectaristics even the ugly ones are the divine"...meaning Isvara. Divine is a poor word to use as it implies that there can be something `not divine`...not of Isvara.

As far as "what has this got to do with enlightenment" goes, you are certainly on the right tracks here as the relationship between awareness, Isvara and jiva, when understood and assimilated is tantamount to enlightenment or Moksha.

When you have an epiphany, non dual experience etc, it is an experience and the experience like all experiences never lasts. furthermore, they only mean what you think they mean. It is the knowledge that they impart that is the important thing. If you understand the knowledge to be that you are awareness...whole and complete, limitless, actionless, unborn, non dual, self luminous and non experiencing ( phew..that`s the full list ! ), and you fully assimilate that self knowledge, you are then forevermore liberated. it is Moksha,

If your understanding of the experience is unclear, then there will be some confusion, doubts and further discrimination/inquiry needs to be done. It cannot be over emphasised that it is knowledge alone sets you free. This is why epiphanies and non dual experiences can almost never be relied upon alone. Nowhere in vedanta will you find that epiphanies and other non dual experiences are a pre- requisite to Moksha. It is not correct to say that if you haven`t had such an experience, you cannot understand non duality or your true nature. in fact these experiences if not clearly understood, can lead you far away from understanding your nature as the self.

Why, because they occur in duality. at no point does the jiva become Isvara or awareness. We can awaken from the dream but ironically, we wake up in a new dream ! we believe that we have experienced the self and if only for a moment, became one with it.

This does not happen in reality because the self/awareness can never be an object. It is you and you are forever the subject that knows objects. just try to see yourself as an object. you can`t do it because you can`t get rid of the knower...you.

An experience of the self is just the reflection of awareness in a sattvic mind. ie a clear undisturbed mirror like mind that reflects perfectly. it happens in the mind but as the reflection is perfect, it is non different from awareness itself. Therefore, it is possible in this state of mind for the thought `I AM THE SELF` to occur. If that thought is `owned`, self knowledge or self Realization occurs. If binding vasanas have been largelly removed prior to this via a sadhana, Self Actualization may occur.

This is the final stage or Moksha.

You continued..

" It's just that with that realization all my "divine" opinions seemed somewhat silly, yes the essence of opinion is valid, but the content was absurd, I was more happy just to witness the divinity of the human race and its dualistic imperfections from that place.Do you understand this? "

Do you Rick ? didn`t you say that opinions are the "essence of Ignorance" earlier ? What is the difference between "the essence of opinion" and "the content" ? What is the "human race" ? ever seen one ? It`s just a thought without a definite description that can be agreed on by everybody.

You followed with..

"Its only going to make sense if you have had a glimpse yourself, there is no separation between God and the jiva, its all just happening and it's fine."

Those glimpses are not the exlusive way to self knowledge as they get interpreted, as was mentioned earlier. They mean what you think they mean. If those glimpses are knowledge then all`s well and good...they can be said to be insights. The teaching of vedanta contains the knowledge of all insights as it is a complete teaching and can be relied upon.You continued..

" This is what I meant by Isvaras POV, there is only one person here and its fine as it is. It's just that from this standpoint I could see that opinions take a very big sidestep in favour of just living and enjoying who I am, and others as they are."

Who is "this person" you refer to ? The Jiva ?Ok, there is only one jiva and we are all it. jiva and Isvara are just diminishing or expanding versions of the one jiva, microcosmic and macrocosmic.

Isvara the creator is conscious of all objects and sentient beings. Jiva is conscious of it`s body andenvironment. Isvara does not depend on Jiva even though Jiva depends on Isvara.

In what way is Isvara dependent ? Isvara depends on Awareness. Without Awareness, Isvaracan`t create. So Isvara is a dependent factor...... Jiva depends on Isvara and Isvara depends onconsciousness / Awareness. BUT,...... Isvara depends on Jiva too ! Why ?

Because the Creation has no meaning without Jiva. can you imagine a creation without Jivas ?What`s Creation ? Awareness and just matter.....it has no meaning. in fact, Isvara and Jiva arejust co-dependent factors like the chicken and the egg.Jiva is creating Karma owing to it`s ignorance but Jiva cannot deliver the fruits of it`s actions.There has to be another factor that`s delivering the results of the actions.....that`s Isvara.So Isvara depends on Jiva`s Ignorance to deliver the results of the actions.So... is Isvara Real...no. is Jiva Real... No ! They`re both dependent on each other.They`re the same...but different. they are both in Maya.

The Creator and the Created are both mutually interdependent. it makes no sense to talk abouta creation without creatures !Isvara creates a world so that creatures can work out their karmas....how could they work it outwithout a `material world` ?The whole idea of god and the individual is just Mithya / Maya.

This teaching is necessary to get us out of the idea that we are controlled by this `big daddy`called God / Isvara. for people who want to remain small, it gives them the perfect excuse....oh,God / Isvara`s doing everything. But Isvara is only facilitating the working out of Karma !

If Jiva is supplying the cause and Isvara is supplying the Effect, then Jiva is Creating !Both are Creating !! The Jiva is just not creating the Total but Isvara is creating the total AND delivering the results of Jiva`s actions. The power of Maya is in both Isvara and Jiva but the Upadhis (false and deceptive appearances ) are different. One big, the other Small. There is no first..or bigger or smaller. It`s mutual co-dependence.So what is the upshot of all this ? One is free of Both !

You said..

" The point im making is that is it really conducive to enlightenment to critique ideas out of context with regards to the other spiritual paths out there (genuine or fraudulent)? For me it seems pointless to make a statement about the other paths now, it's Isvarsa business what they get upto, and I was also one of those people who believed in the validity of those systems. Some people need to start somewhere and most start at the bottom and work their way up, if they want. But in the end everyone is enlightened anyway, (if you know what I'm speaking of here) and there is no reason to critique average joe about their workplace mindfulness programme, its as it is, beautiful ignorance? "

I would say that if moksha is your main aim, it would be very useful to critique the many misleading and confusing teachings doing the rounds. there are so many enlightenment myths out there keeping seekers stuck in their paths that frankly very often lead them far from self knowledge.

If we want to get rid of suffering for ourselves and others, why just leave it all up to Isvara ? dharma doesn`t work that way. Isvara requires us to make a contribution and dharma always trumps enlightenment. There wouldn`t be any teachings at all if we just left everything to Isvara.Sure, from the standpoint of awareness, there is no problem and no suffering but that`s not who the teachings are for is it ? The poor old jiva needs his freedom so he can enjoy his stay in the world for as long he or she is here.

I don`t think anyone critiqued `average joe` about his mindfulness work program. it was rather a critique of big business`s motives for instigating these programs. It may be "beautiful Ignorance" but our jiva does have some measure of free will and can act to change his/her condition.

You further said..

" What I'm attempting to do is take my experiences of understanding certain points and assimilate those experiences. We dont actually assmiliate the teaching perse, we assimilate the discovery's we make from using the scripture as a guide to analyze reality. "

To me your first sentence reads as... `What i`m attempting to do is to take the knowledge from some of my experiences and assimilate them`. Would that be about right ?I read your "discoveries" to mean knowledge. I would say that we do assimilate the teaching as self knowledge...the teaching then just passes into the subconscious to be used when needed. there`s no need to carry it about. At this point, we don`t need to "analyze reality" as we are known to be the only reality. hence self knowledge.

Basically Rick, I see your posts as an inquiry into `experience versus knowledge` and why knowledge is the only access to the self.None of what I said is meant as a criticism of you and I hope that it contributes to your request for an aid to your contemplations.

Mira wrote:I was speaking with a friend today who works for one of the big digital corporations. She mentioned that her company now has meditation rooms, yoga classes, and follows a philosophy called 'Search inside Yourself' (adapted from Google). She kept referring to the "awareness philosophy' that they are subscribing to.

It was kind of interesting to hear that these major corporations which create the stressful, rajasic work environment now are focusing on looking inward to counter the stress. I found it really odd. I hope it is not the start of the 'disneyfication' (or googlefication in this case) or dumbing down of spiritual search. Makes me even more grateful to Ramji and SW for teaching us traditional Vedanta.

Would love to hear any thoughts or if you've encountered anything like this in the corporate world.

I, personally, fortunately haven't been "forced" to engage such attempts of employers to milk their employees minds by making them attend "seminars" like you discribe here. I think that's an intrusion into the privacy of the employee. It's disgusting. I would not want my employer to be a part of my spiritual journey for the sake of me being a better worker for him or her.

In my opinion that is a typical attempt from the capitalistic mind-set, being so greedy and disrespectfull that they even try to go that far. It's orwellian in nature.

Edit: But there is nothing wrong with providing a nice and relaxing working atmosphere. If that is what an employer wants to provide, I think that's a good idea. But any kind of force or any kind of strong recommondation to attend certain seminars to "improve" the employers spiritual .... whatever...is nasty and is certainly non of the employers business.

Hi Rick,Thanks for your sincere and heartfelt reply.Rick, I feel bad about your feeling that you needed to make an apology for causing any perceived harm by your "ranting".

Please feel re-assured that absolutely no harm of any sort was caused. neither do I take your posts to be rants. You obviously expressed your sincere beliefs based on your experiences and insights.

Furthermore, you aimed to have a "discussion so as to aid contemplation or inquiry on certain aspects of the teachings". There`s nothing at all wrong with that. As you yourself said, this is a main reason for the existence of this forum.

You said in one of your earlier posts....

" If anybody is interested in my perspective, or feels like they want to help me out with my learning which I am all for! "Perfect ! this is what we`re here for.

Mabe I over did it with such a long post as a reply to you but, I just wanted to answer your points and leave no stone unturned, so to speak.

You said in your last post...

" I have no qualifications and my values are all over the place. ".

Quite the opposite Rick and I can refute that assertion in another equally long post .....but i`ll spare you ! Ha ha...

Seriously though, we`re here to share our discoveries in the teachings, discuss the finer points of vedanta in general and enjoy each other`s company. Please feel at home here and let us know how you get on. Best wishes to you.