This pissed me off apparently this group wants to destroy the great pyrminds of eygpt, for being a pagan symbol....WTF man, to destory something so ancient so well built to stand against thosands of years of punishment. They better not is all I have to say. and If they do I hope the curse than on every tomb in the pyrmind plauges them for generations to come....

I have had the pleasure of visiting Pyramids thrice and enjoyed learning newer aspects every time.But let me address to your concerns.I am 100% sure, no fool there in Egypt will ever attempt to destroy Pyramids.At least 70% of the tourist income of Egypt is from Pyramids and those related to Pyramids and Pharoahs.If one is bent upon to take Egypt back to cave age; and let me say with certainity, theres no one in Egypt as mad and crazy as Mullah Omer of Afghanistan.This article is just a fantasy and day dreaming of some mad persons.Pyramids are pride of Egypt and no foolhardy Muslim Brotherhood can ever dare to destroy or even damage it.Even if the Muslim Brother ever utter a word of destroying Pyramids, Egyptians are bound to lynch the President and the Party into tiny bits.I am absolutely confident of that.AINA report is speculative.

The pyramids are concider World Heritage by the UNESCO, i might be wrong, but what i understand and have read, not even the goverment of the nation where this world heritage are, have the power to decide to bring them down.

Im sure glad no one agrees with them, one comment really pissed me off, it said something like, this is allah's will it must be carried on or something like that. If it is some deities will I shall forever defy it.

The Muslim Religion is one of peace, as is every other major religion in the world. But a few radicals have chosen to do unpeaceful things in the name of religion. 'Twas ever thus. Consider the wars of the Old Testament; or the Inquisition; or the beheading of so many English, Scots, Welsh and Irish by both queens Mary and Elizabeth I; or the atrocities committed against both women and men in the name of Calvinism; or the things done to the Native American populace (both North and South American); or any one of a number of religious wars scattered throughout the history of the world. In every case, both sides claimed to be the true executioners of God's will. "There's only three tempos: slow, medium and fast. When you get between in the cracks, ain't nuthin' happenin'." Ben Webster

The Muslim Religion is one of peace, as is every other major religion in the world. But a few radicals have chosen to do unpeaceful things in the name of religion. 'Twas ever thus. Consider the wars of the Old Testament; or the Inquisition; or the beheading of so many English, Scots, Welsh and Irish by both queens Mary and Elizabeth I; or the atrocities committed against both women and men in the name of Calvinism; or the things done to the Native American populace (both North and South American); or any one of a number of religious wars scattered throughout the history of the world. In every case, both sides claimed to be the true executioners of God's will.

it might be one of "peace" . To my understanding, there are dozens upon dozens of quotes from the islamic holy texts more or less saying if they are different kill them if they will not accept allah, and if it is not of allah destroy it. also it states do not be friends

Yes, there is lots of peace in there. Just like lots of killing the infidels. I have tried to find direct quotes from either the new or old testament that say something along the lines of kill the nonbeliever, but there is from what i have found, one quote, which you have to warp so hard out of context that its not even something viable.

Furthermore; as it stands, the old testament is not considered a viable part of the christian dogma. They still have it around as it was part of the faith and is crucial to their story, however its teachings are not followed. The new testament is considered the true part of the faith, christian equates to follower of Christ as it were. So to compare the old and new testament against the Koran is a bit off balance. The Islamic text hasn't changed, simply because they take their faith far more seriously then quite a large number of cultures, and i know that isn't the case for the bible. Could stuff like that have been out there? sure, but is it easier to rule a peaceful bunch of sheep, so removing it has benefit.

The things done by various nations that claimed their actions were done "in the name of god" or because "god wills it" are all almost easily traced back to political agenda and greed. the church ALWAYS benefited from the actions the governments took, because people thought they were doing 'gods will'. and at that time, the church was at its most powerful and being in bed with the monarchies, they got away with lots.

So the church ( mind you church=/=bible) says, "yes, god wants you to spread the faith to the heathens, etc etc' and it was considered the go ahead to take what ever steps needed to beat the local populace into submission, or used as fuel to take wars further.

The Muslim Religion is one of peace, as is every other major religion in the world. But a few radicals have chosen to do unpeaceful things in the name of religion.

I thought this for a long time, and made a big effort to buy it as truth. I argued this exact position while others railed on about gleeful Islamists post-9/11, etc. And I'm well aware that there are many (and by that I mean clearly the majority) peace-loving Muslims out there, who want nothing to do with all the infidel/jihad/intifada talk, they just want to worship Allah and try to live good and full lives. But I also know that these concepts, and the actions suggested/required by clerics and texts, are an unambiguous part of their faith, as defined by the Quran. They may choose never to act on it, and many may never find themselves in the presence of those they're supposed to shun, or kill, or rise up against. But nevertheless, it's a long-lasting part of their religious dogma and history which is still being applied in modern times. Yes, I'm aware of parallels with other faiths, which may or may not apply, but two wrongs don't make a right, and we're not discussing other faiths at the moment.

So, while I'd never vilify a single follower of Islam, I also can't repeat statements like "Islam is, at it's core, a peaceful life-affirming faith with a few crazy loons trying to hijack it" and not feel like I'm willfully duping myself into accepting some sort of push-back talking point against Islamophobic bigotry. Now, I also don't believe that Muslims aim to spread their way of life by restricting other ways of life wherever they go. Here in the US, the Muslim population is - as a whole (if we can allow the generalization) - just another group of people trying to be reasonably prosperous. The problem, as I see it, is at the top, and within certain groups, and the apparently unwillingness of Muslims as a whole to disavow the "extremists" that cause non-Muslims worldwide to defend the religion as a whole.

I'll make a politics comparison (because that's how I roll): If some crazy "tea party" Congressperson, or a prominent conservative voice like Rush Limbaugh, says something insane, it's really beside the point that some nebulous majority of conservative voters don't like him, or don't agree with the talking points. At some point, the fault lies with the leaders, and if a constituency truly has distaste for him and his positions, they'd disavow him, and (in the case of Limbaugh) his ratings would stink. But none of those things occur, and thus Conservatives try to have it both ways. "Oh, well, most Republicans I know can't stand Rush Limbaugh," or "we all know Sheriff Joe Arpaio's a crazy son of a bitch," or "Governor Rick Perry's not really smart, I know that." Doesn't matter. They're Republican leaders, from within and from the outside looking in. If you identify with their party, then you're somewhat stuck with them, by virtue of you and a majority of fellow Republicans completely failing to kick them out of the club for decades running. At some point, you can't any longer have it both ways.

Same with religion. It's only fair, because logically it's the same dilemma. If clerics shout from the rooftops (sometimes literally, from what I understand) that they want to reduce the pyramids to rubble, or kill Westerners, or conquer other cultures with the sharp end of a sword, then at some point, it's up to the religion as a whole - and by that, I mean leaders of all major sects, political leaders of Islamic countries, and demonstrations in the streets - to push back, loudly, clearly, and forcefully. Disown those voices and those points of view. Unambiguously state that their opinions are not a part of Islam, and that they, in fact, are infidels for saying so. But of course, this never happens. Yes, there's a list of clerics that denounced the 9/11 attacks. I posted that list myself some time ago. But a list of 14 (random and mostly minor) clerics on September 12, 2001 don't speak for an entire faith any more than those hijackers did, not when it's compared to a billion-plus who look the other way, multiplied by hundreds of years and at least a few dozen murderous incidents.

I have had the pleasure of visiting Pyramids thrice and enjoyed learning newer aspects every time.But let me address to your concerns.I am 100% sure, no fool there in Egypt will ever attempt to destroy Pyramids.At least 70% of the tourist income of Egypt is from Pyramids and those related to Pyramids and Pharoahs.If one is bent upon to take Egypt back to cave age; and let me say with certainity, theres no one in Egypt as mad and crazy as Mullah Omer of Afghanistan.This article is just a fantasy and day dreaming of some mad persons.Pyramids are pride of Egypt and no foolhardy Muslim Brotherhood can ever dare to destroy or even damage it.Even if the Muslim Brother ever utter a word of destroying Pyramids, Egyptians are bound to lynch the President and the Party into tiny bits.I am absolutely confident of that.AINA report is speculative.

Hopefully they don't destroy one of the wonders of o the world. It would be a total loss for those who want to visit the Great Pyramids.

Joined: 1/29/2011Posts: 437Location: Playing with knives , United States

They would be complete idiots to loose such a source of major income for that country. I mean seriously it would be close to a shot in the foot for their economy considering how much Egypt takes in from tourism “I'm not one of those complicated, mixed-up cats. I'm not looking for the secret to life.... I just go on from day to day, taking what comes.”~Frank Sinatra~

They would be complete idiots to loose such a source of major income for that country. I mean seriously it would be close to a shot in the foot for their economy considering how much Egypt takes in from tourism

Joined: 4/8/2011Posts: 22,256Location: if I knew where I was then I would not be here...

I agree that they would be stupid to destroy one of the most wondrous sight of the world. And I am sure the government and other agencies mentioned here would not allow it. But it would only take a few idiots in some planes to destroy them or damage them badly.

Hint: Most of them don't care about tourism or money, or at least don't care about them as much as having a caliphate and worldwide sharia.

I am bewildered at the arguments.I completely fail to understand how can we compare those living in 21st century with a mindset of 7th century.I am not here to remind what was happening in Rome, the then center of a great civilization of the West, in 7th century.It is not to defend what Caliphs of 7th century did. But just to remind that Egyptians are a developed, highly civilized nation with a cultural heritage of over 5000 years and a very large majority of Egyptians are really proud of their cultural heritage.And if any faith forces them to give up their cultural heritage of 5000 years, I am confident they would go to renounce that faith.Are there no fanatics in Europe or USA?Where was Hilter, Moussolini and Stalin even in 20th century; not in Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan, but in some very developed western civilizations of Europe.And they did put thousands if not millions of their compatriots into torture camps, killing thousands, just because they had a different religious faith, Jews.Will they all be compared with the Caliphs of 7th century?I am sure someone will come back with the argument that Talibans too lived in 21st Century. True.But we should view Afghanistan as a largely nomadic society with a tribal social set up.And all tribal societies, in 21st century or 7th century; will have to evolve through the historical process of social evolution spreading into many decades if not centuries.Mindset changes slower than the means of communication or production.We may look at Saudi Arabia. They have large stacks of gold and dollars; yet evolving out of social setup of tribalism and backward mindset, inspite of large number of them educated in best possible intitutions of the West, have taken almost 80 years and are still not allowing their women to drive a car.Its a social mindset which evolves much slower than the means of communications, means of production and even education; expecting them to just jump into moderanity in few decades while it took West over 500 years or more, is simply naievity.We should help them evolve and change, but our expressed or hidden hatred will not help them evolve and match up the West; rather push them away, alienating them further.Look at Chinese. They definitely changed in almost 70 years but still are behind some sort of Iron curtain tightly engulfed by the rigid tyranical rule of Communist Party.The massive investment and involvement from the West help them change; largely if not entirely.Their mindset does need to evolve still to take them away into a liberal modern society as is found in the West.Please, do not hate the criminals; hate the crime.

I have a theory that he is actually an experiment in artificial intelligence.

I just found this in my inbox.

Subject:dearMessage:I wish you had some background of social evolution.Just for a suggestion, try read "Origin of family and state and private property" by Engles.Though there are many other even later and much more detailed publications.Please try to read some and maybe you are in a better position to understand my views.

Social evolution is slower than the biological and material evolution and unless we understand how human society evolved from hunting family setup to a society and then from a nomadic society to tribal, feudal, industrial and now in post industrial society, it is really hard to grasp what other societies are doing and behaving.

One needs to understand the social background before passing a certain judgmental opinion about their coleective behaviors.

I still firmly hold that Egyptian society as a whole will never allow to destroy or touch the great historical monuments of pyramid as they are neither nomadic, tribal or even feudal society. Egypt is a well devloped almost an industrial society and any heretics calling aloud to destroy pyramids are just lunatic voices in that society.

Egypty is not a nomad society like Afghanistan where historical bhudda statue was destroyed on the call of lunatic mullahs.

And to conclude; let me tell you, I am an atheist, not for fashion, but arrived at through studies of science, sociology and logic.I am not defending any Mullah's voice in Egypt.Did not post it at forum, as I do not wish to cast aspertion upon any collegue of mine at lush.Naz

From now on, nazhinaz, please don't send me a message. If you are responding to something I wrote in a forum, do so in the forum. I'm going to make a very simple statement here and now about the pyramids, about the people calling for it's destruction, and the nation of Egypt. I'll make it easy for everyone to understand, something with which you seem to have difficulty.

The people calling for the destruction of the pyramids of Egypt are Muslim. The religion of Islam calls for all muslims to conquer all other nations. The koran has instructions on how to do it using various methods. It also calls for all other religions to be destroyed. As you are an atheist, this religion calls for you to be killed as well. The people of Egypt may not have a choice in keeping these great monuments. Muslims are the ones who destroyed the Library of Alexandria, they destroy other cultures and symbols whenever and wherever they can.

You may think that you are an intellectual, that you are above this. Or maybe you believe in a certain human trait that tells you that all these people are inherently good and don't really want to destroy things. Islam has destroyed entire city-states of people who thought the same way. I won't pass judgment on a single muslim, indeed, I know a couple that are decent and kind. But the religion itself is a cancer on this planet. I will certainly pass judgment on an ideology that, in a modern nation such as England, only about a dozen muslims came forward to condemn the murder of an innocent woman by a mob for simply being in the wrong place, but where THIRTY PERCENT think that terrorism by islam towards other people is a good idea.

You want me to read a book about a general social trend? I just want you to go to a website. www.thereligionofpeace.com Read some of it. If you haven't changed your mind, if you still think there's no way that the pyramids of Egypt will ever fall simply because the people of Egypt have a moral obligation... then you're a more poorly coded artificial intelligence than I thought.

Aw, SeaCreature, he was just trying to show you some respectful discretion. Around here, that's hard to come by. Too hard, really.

And you're both right, at least in part. It's true that the Islamists are just as, if not more, concerned about the disappearing tribal/traditional lifestyle and worldview as they are about sacred Quran scripture, that a lot of this is desperation on their part, to lash out in a losing battle.

But that, in no way, lets their religion off the hook. As SeaCreature states, history and its events do not lie: Islam and its followers are responsible for an awful lot of destruction, mayhem, and terrorism. They've shown themselves over and over to be anti-knowledge and anti-rights. That's not changing any time soon, obviously, and giving them cover by repeating the mantra that it's actually a peaceful faith only amounts to closing one's eyes and pretending the menace doesn't exist. Radical Islam may be stuck in the 7th century, but that shouldn't give them cover, or allow them the excuse for being sexist, cruel, and murderous.

I don't take part in religious debates because I think they are pretty meaningless and only spread hatred. However, I can't help but post in this one.

The way I see things is that no religion has done wonders for the people, what have we gained from them?

Yes, Muslims have done many horrible things over the centuries but have other religions not caused destruction and shed blood? Were Hitler (who was responsible for the killing of more than 50 million people), Napoleon (who was responsible for 2.5 million deaths), Mussolini (he took around half a million lives), and Stalin (he killed 20 million people) Muslims?

What does the following tell you?

Christianity in the Americas, Africa, Asia and the Pacific

Convert and kill in the Americas

When in 1530 CE the Pope finally declared that the Indians were human, the pious Christians began converting the heathens:

"The [Catholic] Spaniards in Mexico and Peru used to baptize Indian infants and then immediately dash their brains out; by this means they secured that these infants went to heaven." -- Bertrand Russell

The Indian chief Hatuey fled with his people but was captured and burned alive. As"they were tying him to the stake a Franciscan friar urged him to take Jesus to his heart so that his soul might go to heaven, rather than descend into hell. Hatuey replied that if heaven was where the Christians went, he would rather go to hell."-- American Holocaust, by D. Stannard [Link]

The Inquisition remained active until 1834, especially in Central and South America, where "heathen" natives were tortured and burned for crimes against the true faith, such as, "not believing in it". [Link]

Massacre of Sand Creek, Colorado 1864. Colonel John Chivington, a former Methodist minister and still elder in the church had a Cheyenne village of about 600, mostly women and children, gunned down despite the chiefs' waving with a white flag: 400-500 killed. -- American Holocaust, by D. Stannard [Link]

Christianity in the Americas: 60 million Native Americans had been exterminated by the end of the 16th century itself. [Link]

For instance, good Christians from Spain

"hanged thirteen [natives] at a time in honor of Christ Our Saviour and the twelve Apostles ... then, straw was wrapped around their torn bodies and they were burned alive." -- American Holocaust, by D.Stannard [Link]

Christians went around burning down libraries of the Indians of Central America, demolishing shrines and burning books

Convert or die: 19th century Christian missionaries exterminated the Californian Indians in the most gruesome manner.More on the horrendous history of Christianity in the Americas

Africa: Christian slavery and colonialism

Facts

Estimates vary, but somewhere between 20 million and 60 million people were captured, enslaved and brought to the Americas. Millions more died in the slave raids, in the dungeons and in the Middle Passage.

Slave castles, with central Churches, were often built over the ancient shrines of the pagan Africans [Same Link]Slave ships often bore appropriate names, like those of the devout slave trader John Hawkins: Jesus, Solomon and John the Baptist. (-- Joseph McCabe)The Africans who survived the journey, were often worked to death:

"The policy of the slaveholder," says Dr. W.E.B. DuBois, "was to kill off the negroes by overwork and buy more." -- Christianity Slavery and Labour, by Chapman Cohen

This was even more so in South America:Brazil and the Caribbean were graveyards for Africans and their descendants. -- American Slavery, 1619-1877, Peter Kolchin

The Bible was used to justify slavery and led to racism: the Curse of Ham, supposedly applicable to Africans, was the reason they "deserved to be slaves".Chuches also went so far as arguing that slavery was all for the best of the pagan

Africans:...the most widespread and effective religious argument was the simple suggestion that slavery was part of God's plan to expose a hitherto heathen people to the blessings of Christianity. -- American Slavery, 1619-1877, by Peter Kolchin

The Society for the Propagation of the Gospel employed slaves on its estates in the West Indies, and there were 80,000 black slaves in London as late as 1760 (Independent Review, October 1905). The American Churches, Anglican, Methodist, and Baptist, owned 600,000 slaves, and "the authority of nearly all the leading denominations was against the abolitionists," says J. Macy in the chief and impartial recent American work (The Anti-Slavery Crusade, 1920, p. 74). The Methodist, Baptist, and Presbyterian authorities, he shows, expelled any minister who advocated abolition. -- A Rationalist Encyclopaedia, Joseph McCabe

Yes, Muslims have done many horrible things over the centuries but have other religions not caused destruction and shed blood? Were Hitler (etc.etc.)

Right, right. But, as stated before in this thread:

Quote:

Yes, I'm aware of parallels with other faiths (or leaders who ruled outside of any particular faith) which may or may not apply, but two wrongs don't make a right, and we're not discussing other faiths at the moment.

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