After numerous experiments with the handleDamage EH I came up with a framework that will allow us to create a detailed (very detailed, if we decide to) and much or less 'realistic' wounding system, including body armor simulation. The information we can get out of the EH, sometimes using some backwards formulae, is as follows:1. Type of ammo that hit the unit2. Its 'hit' value (aka kinetic energy) at the moment of impact3. Its velocity at the moment of impact (absolute value, not the vector)4. The hit part (there are 4: head, torso, legs and hands)5. Direction the bullet came from

The possibilities it opens up (that I came up with so far) are:

- Custom wounding effects for each of the 4 hit zones. - Custom wounding/body armor penetration effects for different ammo types.- Body armor simulation (why not make it destructible and allow for it to be changed/taken off during the mission).- No more accumulative hitpoints b/s, shooting an MG belt's worth of ammo at someone's legs won't make him die, but sure will make him lose mobility and loose a lot of blood.- People in hit/blown up vehicles are also at our disposal.

Atm all I have is the basic structure that allows to retrieve and calculate all the useful info from the EH and trigger respective custom effects, and the knowledge I alone won't pull such a massive task off. Right now I need the thoughts on:Effects for different hit zones (head/torso/hands/legs). What I have in mind now:Head:1. Light concussion - ear ringing, blurred vision (using pp effects)2. Heavy concussion - temp. blindness, deafness, knockdown.3. UnconsciousnessTorso:1. Grazing wounds, bullets stopped by the vest - slight pain, maybe knock down2. Light wounds with nothing vital affected - blood loss, pain3. Serious wounds (internal haemorrhage, collapsed organs etc) - heavy blood loss, shock, uncosciousnessHands:1. Increased shake (hurray for setHit)2. Inability to use long weapons3. Inability to use any weapons, as well as drive etc4. In all cases bleedingLegs:1. Negative stamina effects, inability to move fast2. Loss of the ability to walk (setHit)3. Probability of heavy bleeding/pain etc

These are what I came up with, having only superficial knowledge about actual gunshot wounds. We should design both AI and player effects.

Another area that needs research and evaluation is the common kinds of body armor and the behaviour of different ammo types against them (probability of penetration vs. distance or velocity, wounding effects of a stopped or penetrated bullet).

Also we need to figure out a good handling of HE/frag damage. Unfortunately it's impossible to tell how far a grenade or whatever blew up, but something can be deduced from the damage received and its config hit values.

Apart from all of this, a healing system should be built from the ground up.

It's a huge task, and we need the team effort to pull it off. Right now I'm concentrating on the module that retrieves/calculates all the information about an impact and passes it to the custom damage functions. Later some basic custom hit effects and body armor handling might follow.

I am for armor based on modelled appearance. If I see no vest, he really does not have a vest. Not sure how far an addon system can reach for that by rendering available ballistic vests and allowing them to be worn. Similar to ace_sys_goggles it could be made.

Excellent proposals. I'm a bit worried that head wounds are underdone. A full hit to the head would cause not just unconsciousness, but instant death in many cases for gameplay purposes ie >0.75 damage to that selection.

We have had handshit etc for a long time, but they have always been underutilised. As a rough check of the status and ultimate combat readiness of the unit, I think they could be used in conjunction with handleDamage EH.

Also, I strongly believe we should make any affects impede the AI too. The AI tends to cheat in many cases, and by not including them into this framework might lead people to be tempted to turn it off in the same way they wanted in ACE1 due to the unfair advantage the AI was seen to get. If this cannot be done, then it should only be applied when PvP games are in progress so all players are affected equally.

A fine grained wounding system is long overdue, and A2 offers better tools to achieve this. This existing code from ACE1 should be archived, and only called on where it will be prudent to do so. A major rewrite is the best approach imho.

Figured out how to reverse-calculate distance to an exploded projectile with fair accuracy, if it's farther than indirecthitrange meters from the unit. If it's within the indirecthitrange, max. damage is applied regardless of the distance so it's impossible to find it out. It opens up a possibility to account for both blast (if closer than indirecthitrange) and frag (if outside of it) damage. Explosive ammo might get several config entries, such as fragments density, energy and max effective distance, which would affect the probability, type and severity of a fragment-caused injury.

An important thing to note here re: the head is that helmets do not have an impact in ArmAx. Thus, "overdoing" head effects helps to compensate for that to a degree. I would rather err on the side of caution for head hits - having pistols or really long-range battle rifle shots potentially not insta-kill isn't a bad thing.

Ultimately, from a gameplay perspective you get much cooler results by wounding people than outright killing them. Erring on the side of caution (less damage) here is the safer and potentially more enjoyable path to take, in my opinion.

This is really all awesome to read! Really looking forward to such a awesome system.I have played a bit today with the newest SLX Version in conjunction with latest Beta-Patch and i like Solus approach in many ways very much. The Animations when someone is hit and knocked down are really lovely (Stock A2?), looks very natural and realistic. Same goes for the Animationn on the Ground like crawling/rolling in pain and screaming after a massive hit.

I of course have a few suggestions i've already had during Arma1/ACE1 times and i just list them here again as it seems its more feasible with a whole new system:

1. Loose Weapon(s) when hit at a specific spot with specific damage (SLX approach is really nice made)2. Be able to "disarm" someone knocked to the ground/someone unconscious. This Mess with killing all wounded Enemies from Arma1/ACE1 was not the ideal solution/way.3. Be able to take a disarmed Enemy as Prisoner-of-War, for instance after you gave him medication and disarmed him. (SLX way is very nice made!)4. A Medic should have a higher succes-rate in treating wounds than a normal Soldier.5. Creating additional Medic-Class which is free of the "magical-healing"(setdamage=0). So a Mission Designer can choose if he placed a Medic which can setdamage=0 or someone which is "only" equipped with Proper Medical Equipment for treating ACE2 Wounds.

- Medics in A2 have the option "To heal someone else".When you are wounded and not a medic and close to a medic, you won't get that action known from A1 "Heal at ...".Only medics can apply that action on wounded. Not vice versa.

- Medics in A2 have the option "To heal someone else".When you are wounded and not a medic and close to a medic, you won't get that action known from A1 "Heal at ...".Only medics can apply that action on wounded. Not vice versa.

I know this, but it would be nice to have medics without that option/ability, or else "they" will make use of it, when controlled by AI or Human players

Sorry for bothering again: But after reading the whole ACE2 topic in BI-Forums (about the wounding potential of certain round types) and reading the point "1." in Q1184 first post, why not also simulate wounding potential based on round type, if you can go already that detailed with the system?

For instance, add a Entry like "ACE_WoundCoefficient = x.xx" into each config-class of the ammo-types and query it later on (when hit "object" is a human and bullet passed through armor), to decide how strong wounds and the resulting bleeeding/pain/other relevant factors, will be.

So you can give a higher WoundCoefficient on 5.56mm Nato compared to 7,62x39mm Russian AK47 type, which could mean that a Guy hit with the higher WoundCoefficient-Value bullet will bleed much faster to death, than when hit with a lower valued round into the same area.What you think?

Ammo needs more than a wound coefficient, it also needs a penetration value. 00 buckshot can mess a person up, but its not going to make it through body armour. A full metal jacket round on the other hand has a better chance of penetrating body armour, but can still over penetrate and do less wounding damage.

Ammo needs more than a wound coefficient, it also needs a penetration value. 00 buckshot can mess a person up, but its not going to make it through body armour. A full metal jacket round on the other hand has a better chance of penetrating body armour, but can still over penetrate and do less wounding damage.

Hi, yes thats why the "wound-coefficient" could be a additional config-value on top of the other things already doable. I'm aware of the other possibilities doable, like penetration values and so on and it was suggested for the people knowing what can be done, for instance like the ACE-Devs.... :-)

Beta 2 sounds good, a basic version (a little bit like the ACE 1 version, but just a little bit and completely rewritten from scratch) might be reachable for Beta 1 (activate it by placing a module ?).

Still trying to balance things (handledamage kills me) and it needs a MP test (mainly for the animations, rest should be fine). One small script running for each unit (I still have to transfer it to FSM).

What's working:- Examine- Epi- Morphine- Bandages- Bleeding- Blackouts (AI and players may wake up, depending on damage state, including FX effects for blackouts and bleeding)- Drag uncon units- Carry uncon units- Pull uncon units out of vehicles- No magic healing for medics- Sounds- Medic boxes with bandages, mash and medic vehicles have their set of medic stuff (currently the same as in ACE 1)- and so on

Actually he was aware of its existance. And I sent him all of your work. However, because we were lucky to have any Dev with skills, and time and willing to work on the component, I gave him some simple goals to start out. And I gave him full leadership over the project so we can actually keep a dev working on such an important project.

The simple goals: Make a basic version first that has good server performance for MP first. If we can make a Beta 2 release before Christmas great. After we have this then we can expand and work towards our original goals making a more detailed vision as the one you described.

But I didn't want too much pressure on the Xeno since it is a very important core component.

If a basic system (manually activated), can be reached at the pub beta, we at least can claim victory on the fact that there is a system available, at the first release.While tweaking, or further finalization can happen on the daily builds?

But, I'm sure the public can live with some more days of BI AIS etc, when deemed impossible :P

What I have done today is MP testing, adding drag and carry for dead units (you can pick up any dead unit on the battlefield, nobody gets left behind, works fine in MP) and removing medic or medic vehicle magic healing completely. The problem is, that vehicles or objects don't fire the handleHeal eventhandler, so I had to replace their configs to get rid of it. This means, even if the wounds system isn't enabled you get no magic healing at those objects. You have to rely on medics then. If somebody has a better solution, let me know.

But most important was that all animations worked out of the box in MP (knock on wood :), no setVehicleInit used yet).Unconscious units are forced into death animations to get rid of that strange "lying on the back and rolling left or right" animations that BI uses.

If default ambulances/tents do not heal anymore, we can create additional "magic" classes with enabled healing, so at least new missions will work fine without the module, old missions will require modification though.Edit: A script that automatically replaces objects with disabled healing with their magical counterparts if wounding module is disabled might be an idea.

[59691] Improved: Small hit be ignored by hitpoints (configurable by minimalHit) [59668] Improved: Hitpoint can pass only a part of the hit to the total damage (passthrough setting no longer ignored).

Also I dont know about real world, but soldiers probably fall over if they are hit solidly even if they are not injured, the kinetic enery/shock/pain will knock them down (or on overpenetration make them fall over many times) im sure. I remember in particular the video from Iraq(?) where a soldier is hit and goes down like a log. He's down for a couple of seconds then picks himself up and runs behind a HUMVEE. Obviously you wouldnt be knocked over every time you are hit but still.

It’s great to see that you could implement the transportation of all kind of body’s (including the dead) into the simulation!Nice that magic healing is gone!

Do not use your costly time to implement Epi and Morphine. Those two will not save injured soldiers!Most important is the handling of blood loss.The procedure to apply bandages should take time (medics could have a bonus in speed and effectiveness)Bleeding should only be reduced by bandages (depending on the injury); it would only be stopped by reaching a destination simulating an operation facility (fx. med tends stop bleeding but do not heal). This would encourage a rapid MEDEVAC and make it more exiting on the way.

If you have time to implement more advanced medical features I would vote for airway handling and pneumothorax treatment. This can save lives in this kind of setting.

I only now got aware of dev-heaven after I made some posts with link to a relevant article in the BI forum.

I am a real live doctor and would be happy to support you with your project if you have any questions!

If "magic" healing is removed from everything in the game, how are we supposed to get back into the fight? I'm all for medevac in certain missions that can support it, but keep in mind that many squads are too small to have this as a valid playable option. If all we do all night is medevac due to injuries, the gaming night (a few hours once a week) will be pretty much ruined for some of us.

I'm a bit concerned about nullifying the regular medic stuff (although unrealistic). I'd rather have new medics, vehicles, and tents where this ability is fixed (removed). Editing of most missions is ok by me, but how about the campaign stuff? Not having a "regular medic" in the campaign I believe would make it unplayable. And it's not something for everyone to edit.

How about old system if ACE_wound logic is not present, and new system when it is present? Is that even doable?

How about old system if ACE_wound logic is not present, and new system when it is present? Is that even doable?

That is exactly how it is working currently.

If the logic isn't placed, you get vanilla ArmA 2 magic healing. Medics and medic vehicles that is.

Btw, although it is a module logic, you don't need to sync units against it, just place it in the editor. In contrast to how BI uses modules (you have to sync groups or units). Means, it will work even for JIP players and when AI is disabled.

If "magic" healing is removed from everything in the game, how are we supposed to get back into the fight? I'm all for medevac in certain missions that can support it, but keep in mind that many squads are too small to have this as a valid playable option. If all we do all night is medevac due to injuries, the gaming night (a few hours once a week) will be pretty much ruined for some of us.

Of curse it would only work in new missions. ARMA has the feature to re spawn instead of an AI soldier. If you are injured you can leave your injured character behind and re spawn as a new "reserve" soldier. The reserve AI soldiers can either be hold back in the second line of fighting or back at the base. You (or your team) still would have to take care of your former character, the causality. Would be a good thing for team play with focus on slow approaches. It would be more important to communicate where team members are and what status they have. If you get shot it is no longer only your personal problem but a problem to the entire team.

This would make things more realistic.Defibrillators, Epi, Morphine, and battlefield heal only make it unrealistic in a different way. (I like the magic heal for some games; I would only love to see a game with a realistic alternative)

Yes, tested it today. Modded dom with module has no magic healing, and testing grounds without module has magic healing. Just as I wanted it. Thx.

I don't think I have ever respawned for the sake of convenience. Except during testing or due to bugs which I'll usually play out for quite some time. Yes I agree, some "game modes" needs the "magic" due to lack of proper players, but I don't mind advanced stuff either in more mature games.