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The boss fights kinda suck though and are unavoidable. My advice to you is 2 typhoon shots on the first and third, stunlock with EMP grenades on the second. Just get them over with and go back to the semi-passable shootan/email reading.

The boss fights kinda suck though and are unavoidable. My advice to you is 2 typhoon shots on the first and third, stunlock with EMP grenades on the second. Just get them over with and go back to the semi-passable shootan/email reading.

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yeah i really liked hengsha, seemed so gritty. i liked the ambient soundtrack for it as well

im playing through it again, following this guide (http://deusex.wikia.com/wiki/Experience_by_Area) to maximise xp. im up to hengsha 2nd visit and talking to tong again. god it takes so fucking long to set up double takedowns on everyone

Yes. I wish someone had told Eidos Montreal. But your contention was that it was harder to ghost DX:HR than DX1. It seems you disregarded the quests in DX1 that would actually have been more difficult to ghost.

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There is little sense in even attempting to ghost escort mission, unless just to eliminate resistance.

The economy of level design--in that it's all tailored to specific approaches--contrasts with the expansiveness of DX1, where even the hacking was less standardized and more contextual (shut down bot! release the karkians! destroy the hull!).

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Actually, DX:HR terminals, although standardized have no less utility than those in DX1, apart from manually controlling cameras. Releasing karkians is simply opening doors, turret controls are built-in, bot controls, that were specific singular thing in DX1 are built into default security hub functionality this time.

Also, there are four major improvements to hacking in DX:HR compared to DX1.

1) It's no longer a progress bar, but a minigame that tries to present itself as network rather than :minigame_unrelated:.
2) It's doesn't get in the way of reading emails.
3) It cannot be done from under the table requiring more care from player.
4) enemies actively interrupt it and you can look around while hacking to spot the physical dangers.

When I explore a level in DX1, it's often for that reason alone--to explore. In DX:HR, 'exploration' is mostly just the natural consequence of using the ghost approach that the level designers had laid out for you (traveller bonus!).

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Meh, the thing is just that DX1 engine allows for larger contiguous spaces. Still, it only means anything for levels that aren't walled in or otherwise subdivided into disjoint sections.

In Thief's 'Return to the Haunted Cathedral' on Expert, you have to get rid of all the haunts in the level. It's possible to do that without killing them yourself: pick up one of two hammers in the level, toss at haunt, repeat until haunt is dead. That sounds pretty 'meta as far as stealth goes', but as far as I know it's the only way to complete the level on that difficulty setting without any kills whatsoever. Does any of that make Thief's stealth inferior to that of DX:HR?

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How is that "without killing them yourself"? What's the difference apart from possibly derpy scoring mechanics not accounting for the kills made by tossing shit?

So meta.

Edit: I don't recall the enemies in DX:HR noticing that large crates had popped into existence when their backs were turned. Not really sure what that proves.

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Nothing apart from the fact that stacking conspicuous crate barricades shouldn't be used as an argument for quality of stealth system - it's the argument for derp AI.

Spoiler(Move your mouse to the spoiler area to reveal the content)Show SpoilerHide Spoiler

JC has escaped his holding cell, and is using the the vents to explore the MJ12 facility under UNATCO HQ.

He comes upon an MiB seated at a terminal, with a delicious augmentation canister in clear view. And JC doesn't have enough multitools either. There's no way he can get the canister without being seen or attacking anyone. 'Is ghosting even applicable here?'

JC tosses a combat knife inside the vent as a distraction. The MiB gets up from his chair and runs towards what he thinks is the source. An alarmed enemy who was seated usually returns to the the chair, so JC does the only logical thing: he destroys it.

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And this is where this scenario ceases to be showcase of flexibility of the game in regards to playstyle and becomes a hilarious derp parade.

You can't use NPC inability to notice fucking mayhem in their environment to praise stealth system just as you can't use TES AI inability to comprehend stuff like 'jumping', 'stuck' and 'unreachable spot' to praise TES combat.

This kind of situations, where the game starts behaving drastically different from the stuff it seeks to emulate, are what occurs when you push the game systems (such as AI) outside the bounds they were designed to operate within. Ease of doing so is not a good thing, but a potentially serious flaw indicating that those bounds are too narrow and game logic too breakable.

This, the only thing you really need sticky cover for is scoping in with a sniper rifle if you attached a laser sight to it (due to a bug).

That and watching Jensen standing there being awesome (or flipping between covers).

If you don't want to unbind the key (for example because you want that laser sight on your SR to make it usable without scope which can get very handy in at least one spot in game and there are not many places where you actually can make proper use of the scope anyway), then you can bind it somewhere less convenient.

Of course, lack of TPP cover does make sneaking quite a bit more challenging (combat less so).

The boss fights kinda suck though and are unavoidable. My advice to you is 2 typhoon shots on the first and third, stunlock with EMP grenades on the second. Just get them over with and go back to the semi-passable shootan/email reading.

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Currently finished Missing Link (stealthy and not very lethal) and getting beck to my 2nd playthrough - this time as combat/hacker build.

Properly upgraded heavy rifle can actually be very effective, and just cuts the second boss down when coupled with smart vision, but making HR usable is very demanding - it unconditionally requires laser sight, cooling system and maxed out recoil compensation aug, because otherwise it's just an impossible to control, horribly inaccurate combat rifle with spin up delay that can't hit anything - in other words: horribly impractical weapon.

Then you can beef it up with RoF, capacity and reload time upgrades, damage too if you have any to spare. Subdermal armour and smart vision are pretty much essential especially if you use no sticky cover as spin-up delay will get you exposed to enemy fire, although you can minimize it by starting spin-up before popping out - if you know where to aim (smart vision).

Still, combat heavy build is not something I would recommend anyone in any DX on their first playthrough. DX has something in it that makes you want to go stealthy, hacky and mostly non-lethal.

Who would have thought...
Seems DXHR has recieved an update. I had thought the game to be completely abandoned by Eidos already.

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Eidos Montreal, Square Enix, and Nixxes are happy to provide an additional patch for Deus Ex: Human Revolution that addresses various issues players have reported since release. We hope this patch will allow them to further enjoy playing the game.

The patch includes:

-Some players accounted a problem where the Tai Young Medical shuttle in Hengsha would not arrive. This has been resolved.
•Existing save-games can be loaded and continued from normally, the shuttle will now arrive.
-We have provided a workaround for stability and performance issues on AMD FX CPUs with specific firmware versions.
-We have made further changes to reduce stuttering in the game.
•Improvements to background streaming of resources. (on DX11 only)
•Workarounds have been added for issues that can happen with Windows asynchronous file IO.
•We have improved parallelism with the graphics driver on dual-core machines. (should also benefit machines with more cores)
-SSAO has been improved to look less noisy.
-Various minor issues with 3DVision have been resolved.

As far as I can tell after some short testing, my stutter seems to be gone now (it was pretty bad sometimes since the last patch in October) and SSAO is looking a bit better, too.
Can't say much on the other issues, as they never applied for me.

Also, one more thing I really like about both DX1 and DX:HR - they really incentivize not killing and humanize their mooks on some psychological level most of the time (I'm not speaking of XP bonuses in DX:HR), while most of the games do the exact opposite.

Also, one more thing I really like about both DX1 and DX:HR - they really incentivize not killing and humanize their mooks on some psychological level most of the time (I'm not speaking of XP bonuses in DX:HR), while most of the games do the exact opposite.

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I just thought again about what I mentioned earlier (killing zombie civilians on last level), if you don't take the ``true end'' do you get a news story reporting your kill count from that level?

Actually, DX:HR terminals, although standardized have no less utility than those in DX1, apart from manually controlling cameras. Releasing karkians is simply opening doors, turret controls are built-in, bot controls, that were specific singular thing in DX1 are built into default security hub functionality this time.

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And why is 'built into default security hub functionality' a good thing? Why should hacking only allow you to lockpick, read emails, shut down cameras, and reprogram bots? In DX:HR, that pretty much covers everything you can do with hacking. Adding more functionality to individual terminals would have given more incentive to check the terminals than reading the Nigerian email for the nth time. You could, I don't know, include half a kill-switch for one of the bosses.

It's bad enough that they streamlined three skills into one (which in effect means that you have to go through the same tedious minigame over and over and over), but they also streamlined what you can do with it. Double

How is that "without killing them yourself"? What's the difference apart from possibly derpy scoring mechanics not accounting for the kills made by tossing shit?

So meta.

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You haven't answered my question. [Edited.] If ghosting and avoidance of exploits are the metrics by which you judge stealth, then Thief and Thief 2 would be inferior to DX:HR.

There is little sense in even attempting to ghost escort mission, unless just to eliminate resistance.

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Agreed. And as far as I can remember, DX1 was not advertised as allowing you to complete the full game while ghosting (edit: that's entirely a player-enforced challenge), but as supporting multiple ways to complete objectives, which the Ford rescue mission does in fact demonstrate. DX:HR, on the other hand, has something called a 'ghost' bonus. My argument is that ghosting was casually implemented in DX:HR's level design, with the result that it is no longer the highest challenge for a stealth player. Personally, it wasn't a challenge at all.

Aside from the difficulty--which, to be fair, differs among players--enemies look stunningly incompetent when someone can easily bypass most of their security measures while ghosting without even having to make use of the stealth upgrades that makes the augmented supposedly superior to regular humans. I'm also reminded of those computers you have to hack to gain access to areas that should be highly secured, and yet you only need the most basic hacking skill here (as opposed to maxed-out skills to open some random guy's locker) because the designers couldn't think of any other way to get the player through their railroaded path. Such an improvement over DX1.

This kind of situations, where the game starts behaving drastically different from the stuff it seeks to emulate, are what occurs when you push the game systems (such as AI) outside the bounds they were designed to operate within. Ease of doing so is not a good thing, but a potentially serious flaw indicating that those bounds are too narrow and game logic too breakable.

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Restricting player actions to the narrow confines of the developers' imagination is precisely why we can't have nice things. Edit: I don't expect you to understand why eliminating enemies by jumping on them (g'night Maggie!) with the speed enhancement in DX1 was more fun for me than using the upgraded Icarus landing system in DX:HR.

And why is 'built into default security hub functionality' a good thing?

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Because generalized mechanics is always better than a single scripted instance, when building a mechanical framework.

Why should hacking only allow you to lockpick, read emails, shut down cameras, and reprogram bots?

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It doesn't. There are also those funny black boxes that do all kinds of arbitrary stuff. So it basically covers the whole spectrum of what DX1 hacking did + more bots.

It's bad enough that they streamlined three skills into one

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Yes but it's compensated by actually making this one skill better than any of those three skills.

And like I said, I would limit the amount of hacking required by not making numpads hackable - you'd have to hack into them from terminals and included them in as api nodes.

If ghosting and avoidance of exploits are the metrics by which you judge stealth, then Thief and Thief 2 would be inferior to DX:HR.

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How so? I just said that throwing shit for lethal effect doesn't count as not killing because you haven't used your bow or sword.

Besides, there is no obligation that the entirety of the game should be ghostable.

Agreed. And as far as I can remember, DX1 was not advertised as allowing you to complete the full game while ghosting (edit: that's entirely a player-enforced challenge), but as supporting multiple ways to complete objectives, which the Ford rescue mission does in fact demonstrate.

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Except Ford rescue mission is almost completely linear crawl which also happens to not include any features that aren't available in DX:HR apart from large swimmable pool of toxic sewage that is of no gameplay consequence.

Whatever it demonstrates it demonstrates poorly.

DX:HR, on the other hand, has something called a 'ghost' bonus. My argument is that ghosting was casually implemented in DX:HR's level design, with the result that it is no longer the highest challenge for a stealth player. Personally, it wasn't a challenge at all.

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Actually I agree with gameplay style XP bonuses (hacking, kills, takedowns, ghost, etc. and yes, that includes exploration bonus from both DX1 and HR - meanwhile Shifter includes those in DX1 - grr) being bad for gameplay flexibility as they funnel the player towards predefined playstyle.

Any bonuses from approach should be intrinsically tied to the gameplay - for example alarms going off may mean enemy backups and better numbers/alertness in subsequent missons, or even siccing police on you in the hubs, exploration bonus should consist of loot, information and routes/tactical advantage and so on.

Still, while ghosting HR isn't terribly hard, it's overall harder than DX1 - you have no shadows, enemy is smarter, cameras can spot stuff like bodies and advantage of cover system over legitimate gameplay diminishes drastically once you get smart vision (ok, you can get it much earlier than in DX1 if you really want to).

Now, if you want to ghost while also grabbing all the worthwhile stuff and information, this is going to require some more skill.

Aside from the difficulty--which, to be fair, differs among players--enemies look stunningly incompetent when someone can easily bypass most of their security measures while ghosting without even having to make use of the stealth upgrades that makes the augmented supposedly superior to regular humans.

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How is it different from DX1?

I'm also reminded of those computers you have to hack to gain access to areas that should be highly secured, and yet you only need the most basic hacking skill here (as opposed to maxed-out skills to open some random guy's locker) because the designers couldn't think of any other way to get the player through their railroaded path. Such an improvement over DX1.

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Ok, but DX1 has plenty of this railroaded shit (minus lvl 1 terminals) in indoors levels.

It only has definite advantage in wide-open indoor-outdoor levels, as they allow for considerable freedom of approach.

Restricting player actions to the narrow confines of the developers' imagination is precisely why we can't have nice things.

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Are you fucking retarded?

Where did I say I wanted anything like that?

I simply observed that there is usually some range of situations where programmed systems no longer work as intended - be they exponential alchemy in Morrowind or enemies ignoring environment suddenly breaking down around them in DX.

Or do you consider enemies getting alarmed when you destroy scenery around them "restricting player actions"?

Edit: I don't expect you to understand why eliminating enemies by jumping on them (g'night Maggie!) with the speed enhancement in DX1 was more fun for me than using the upgraded Icarus landing system in DX:HR.

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No, I don't but if it's any consolation I would consider it much better than Icarus if it forced knockdowns (not necessarily KOs) in addition to damage.

Don't know, didn't kill them.
PEPS is god on this level if you don't want to stealth, BTW, so is gas.

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I realised that after I completed it, I started playing it 90% stealthy a few levels before and had a laser, grenade launcher, smg, pistol, sniper, bunch of grenades/mines and possibly one more weapon ready for a crazy final fire fight level and boss but the I felt bad for killing people and the boss took like 9 laser shots.

It doesn't. There are also those funny black boxes that do all kinds of arbitrary stuff.

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I'm sorry, I don't know what this refers to. Please explain.

Besides, there is no obligation that the entirety of the game should be ghostable.

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Then why bring up ghosting as a measure in the first place?

Except Ford rescue mission is almost completely linear crawl which also happens to not include any features that aren't available in DX:HR apart from large swimmable pool of toxic sewage that is of no gameplay consequence.

Whatever it demonstrates it demonstrates poorly.

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Please refer to my previous post in which I dispatched all enemies without being detected by using leaking barrels. What this seems to demonstrate is your lack of creativity in finding possible ways to play the game.

Aside from the difficulty--which, to be fair, differs among players--enemies look stunningly incompetent when someone can easily bypass most of their security measures while ghosting without even having to make use of the stealth upgrades that makes the augmented supposedly superior to regular humans.

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How is it different from DX1?

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Excuse me? You admitted that the MJ12 lab in the sewers was nigh-impossible to ghost. So well-secured that it's almost as if the enemies were trying to be competent or something. But here's another example: The base of the statue on Liberty Island. The security set-up isn't bad, especially with a guard watching the prison door. And yet the rescue is ghostable without exploits. It's more challenging, yes, but that's only right and proper.

Ok, but DX1 has plenty of this railroaded shit (minus lvl 1 terminals) in indoors levels.

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I don't dispute that DX1 level design can be linear. But when does it resort to anything as stupid as level 1 terminals?

Are you fucking retarded?

Where did I say I wanted anything like that?

I simply observed that there is usually some range of situations where programmed systems no longer work as intended - be they exponential alchemy in Morrowind or enemies ignoring environment suddenly breaking down around them in DX.

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Read the post again. If you had actually paid attention to what I had written, you would have noticed that using the furniture alone added to the gameplay. Even moving the chair causes a difference in that situation. Or would you consider it less fun if something that added gameplay broke your immershun?

Edit: I don't expect you to understand why eliminating enemies by jumping on them (g'night Maggie!) with the speed enhancement in DX1 was more fun for me than using the upgraded Icarus landing system in DX:HR.

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No, I don't but if it's any consolation I would consider it much better than Icarus if it forced knockdowns (not necessarily KOs) in addition to damage.

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Okay, I'll break it down for you. In DX1, using speed running to kill people by falling on them involves creativity and using your brian. Using the Icarus landing system just follows the designers' intended purpose as described in the game.

I think I need to articulate the difference in design that I'm talking about more clearly.

DX1 level design favours playgrounds where objectives can be accomplished in several different ways. DX:HR's level design favours obstacle courses for various playstyles. (Needless to say, there are exceptions in both games.) Hence the lower replayability of DX:HR for stealth players; they've likely been there and done that just by following their chosen playstyle. In DX1 there's more content to find even after a stealth playthrough, but in DX:HR you'll likely have to switch playstyles to get more out of the game.

The different XP rewards in the games reinforce these approaches: DX1 mostly rewards you for accomplishing mission objectives; DX:HR rewards you based on how you've accomplished them (and messes up the XP system, but that's another rant altogether).

I think I need to articulate the difference in design that I'm talking about more clearly.

DX1 level design favours playgrounds where objectives can be accomplished in several different ways. DX:HR's level design favours obstacle courses for various playstyles. (Needless to say, there are exceptions in both games.) Hence the lower replayability of DX:HR for stealth players; they've likely been there and done that just by following their chosen playstyle. In DX1 there's more content to find even after a stealth playthrough, but in DX:HR you'll likely have to switch playstyles to get more out of the game.

The different XP rewards in the games reinforce these approaches: DX1 mostly rewards you for accomplishing mission objectives; DX:HR rewards you based on how you've accomplished them (and messes up the XP system, but that's another rant altogether).

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Best anti HR post I've seen on the Codex. This is how you make a point without seeming butthurt

DXHR levels all seem to follow a rule of compartmentalised chunks that can be broken down into three possible routes:

Conventional route:

This is the route where you have to shoot your way past the AI. In some cases you may be able to go this route while ghosting if you use sticky cover properly.

Human Sized Vent(HSV) route:

All levels are equipped with an extensive HSV system. AI is strictly forbidden from entering any HSV. They allow ghosting players to circumvent any areas of the conventional route where ghosting would be otherwise impossible. They also provide a safe zone for players who aggro the AI.

Awesome! Augmentations (AA) route:

The AA systems allow players to skip chunks of the conventional route depending on the augmentations they have available. None of these routes are essential. Examples are weak walls that can be punched through, yet are immune to all forms of weapon damage and large drops which require the Icarus landing system.

The AA systems allow players to skip chunks of the conventional route depending on the augmentations they have available. None of these routes are essential. Examples are weak walls that can be punched through, yet are immune to all forms of weapon damage and large drops which require the Icarus landing system.