Garrosh had a deep and sincere respect for Thrall, but he gradually lost it until the point that, in Tides of War, he even said that the root of all the problems of the Horde is the peace-loving attitude that Thrall had during his reign, and for this he was "weak".

A respect that started to wain within his first few days of joining the Horde.
His very first day in Ogrimmar he was bout to pimp slap a woman for trash-talking Thrall, but once he started to learn about the "details" of Durotar and other stuff that faith started to wane leading to the duel before Wrath

We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

Pretty sure those camps knew, since we already destroyed one of their outposts

Plus its not like the conflict was completely unavoidable. They were both heading toward the same place and were bound to cross swords eventually.

Are you sure? I remember doing some tests. If i left him to attack alliance, they would retaliate; if i attacked Grom, he would attack me all the time and eventually destroy me, but no alliance would show up.
Once i tried activating cheats and wrecked him before he could do anything, and i didn't have to face a single alliance soldier. I restarted the mission anyway, as i wanted to do it legit.
So yeah... i guess he was the one screwing everything up!

The saddest part that it has only happened in MoP. "Heart of War" gives a different image of Garrosh.

well people become villians they dont start out that way

---------- Post added 2013-05-26 at 01:11 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Trassk

Moopy and depressed Garrosh?

That change made perfect sense.
He is a Hellscream ,its basically in his genes to be hard-headed and agressive. Only reason he wasent was because of the burden of guilt over Grom.
So once Thrall relives that burden guess whats left?

Really his development isnt as far fetched or "duel personalities" as people seem to make it out to be

We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

oh wow gee, you mean another writer gives him a personality shift, because they didn't know what to do with him?

It seems thats how the bin that is Garrosh persona works, just stick your hand in this week and see what kind of garrosh it will be.

Moopy and depressed Garrosh? There you go, next week it could be Sadist garrosh, or even better, double standards Garrosh, yay!

That way it would make sense if in the end it turns out that Garrosh is not to blame for anything and they let him go, or even better, continue ruling the Horde. Because why not continue the trend, patch 5.4 - wise Garrosh was giving the world a lesson of peace, uniting it, by pretending to be evil all this time to prepare the world for the coming of Legion.

Originally Posted by Dreknar20

well people become villians they dont start out that way

In this game, there's a writer with a bat smacking the characters that have more than one trait on the head, beating anything more complicated than "save everyone/enslave everyone" motivation out of them.

Last edited by Haven; 2013-05-26 at 01:23 AM.

"A NAME IS A CLOAK OF LETTERS THROWN UPON A MAN. IT MEANS NOTHING." - Transcendent One, Planescape: Torment.

Garrosh was the best character in terms of getting character developement ever since TBC, even to Warchief level if it came to that. Blizzard fucked it all up by writing his character all over from brutal to kind, from honourable to despicaple, from one who executes anyone for even attempting to practice warlocky to "DEMONS R POWERFUL LETS USE THEM"

I'm so sad because Garrosh was probably the most interesting character between the shift on TBC to WotLK and this is how they spent it, especially in the wake of Cataclysm that if properly explained, would've given more than enough reasons to for war than "RAAARGH ME ANGRY."

So fucking stupid.

Modern gaming apologist: I once tasted diarrhea so shit is fine.

"People who alter or destroy works of art and our cultural heritage for profit or as an excercise of power, are barbarians" - George Lucas 1988

I think he was meant to be a parralel to Grom... but the problem was, well, the writers absolutely SUCKED at presenting him in a convincing way to both sides that he's a Noble leader angry with... with...

...and that's the problem. We don't know why he's angry at the Alliance at all. Had they made SMALLER steps it would've been fine.

It's kinda like King Chinn when he showed up. Even the alliance was saying "C'mon!! That's just STUPID!! He goes from being this noble guy to suddenly looking 20 years younger, straight out of an anime, and going racial batshit hatred!?" - I don't CARE if he was in some arena in Org... the bottom line is a) most gamers didn't read that story and b) you DON'T make a totally role-reverse switch like that overnight!

Garrosh had the same problem.

"Tell them only that the Lich King is dead... and that World of Warcraft... died with him..."

Originally Posted by BenBos

That's the ONLY reason you would post 9600 posts over 3 years: a mission of hate.

The saddest part that it has only happened in MoP. "Heart of War" gives a different image of Garrosh.

Heart of War doesn't give a different image of Garrosh, just explains the basic for understand because Garrosh acted in a particular way from Northrend to Cata. The novels instead, like Wolfheart and Tides of War, simply explains how and why Garrosh is taking extreme actions about it, and how his original goals, while still there, are twisted by personal vendetta, bad advisors and a misplaced convinction that all he do is excatly what Grommash would have wanted for the Horde.

In MoP we simply see Garrosh just partially following his father mistakes, beliving that the only, true mistake of his father was lead the orcs to slavery, but he doesn't see or understand the others, he never did, even in Heart of War was clear that he didn't have a clear idea of the why the decisions of his father were so terrible. And so he's doing the same mistakes of his father simply because he doesn't see them as such, and like Grom put power and the "means justify actions" mantra above everything else now.

---------- Post added 2013-05-26 at 05:56 PM ----------

Originally Posted by mvallas

I think he was meant to be a parralel to Grom... but the problem was, well, the writers absolutely SUCKED at presenting him in a convincing way to both sides that he's a Noble leader angry with... with...

...and that's the problem. We don't know why he's angry at the Alliance at all. Had they made SMALLER steps it would've been fine.

There's no reason at all for which Garrosh should have turned like a "Noble leader" in the end, since his father wasn't. Father and son TRIED to be noble, but failed miserably. Grom had only had the "luck" to essentially erase all his mistakes with an axe's blow and a glorious death, just because of the powerful consequences of the death of Mannoroth (the end of the Blood Curse).

And we know because Garrosh despise the Alliance, in Heart of War is perfectly explained, but ofcourse personal defeats and blows to his overgrown pride made this despise becoming something more and more extreme.

That way it would make sense if in the end it turns out that Garrosh is not to blame for anything and they let him go, or even better, continue ruling the Horde. Because why not continue the trend, patch 5.4 - wise Garrosh was giving the world a lesson of peace, uniting it, by pretending to be evil all this time to prepare the world for the coming of Legion.
In this game, there's a writer with a bat smacking the characters that have more than one trait on the head, beating anything more complicated than "save everyone/enslave everyone" motivation out of them.

Out of sudden it reminded me of magical guy from adventure time
Thrall: Garrosh stop this madness !!!
Garry: Not until you appretiate what a jerk i am !!!
/garrosh turns anduin thrall vol'jin and jaina into one shapeless mass of flesh
Garry: And now think about lesson i gave you !!!
/garrosh poofs away.

Heart of War doesn't give a different image of Garrosh, just explains the basic for understand because Garrosh acted in a particular way from Northrend to Cata.

Capt back then during Cata, Herat of War, and the Shattering it showed Garrosh as a ruthless fighter but one who still had morals and guidelines on how one should fight

---------- Post added 2013-05-26 at 07:04 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Zulkhan

. The novels instead, like Wolfheart and Tides of War, simply explains how and why Garrosh is taking extreme actions about it

Kinda does a poor job as to the why.
In Tides of War there were no talk or inner monolouge or anything about Garrosh weighing the options and deciding victory trumps all regardless of methods.

And only mention we get of that was from Baine, where he says Garrosh once killed a general for leaving nothing but a crater, and how the mana bomb is eerily similar and blah blah
But thats basically it

We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

Heart of War doesn't give a different image of Garrosh, just explains the basic for understand because Garrosh acted in a particular way from Northrend to Cata. The novels instead, like Wolfheart and Tides of War, simply explains how and why Garrosh is taking extreme actions about it, and how his original goals, while still there, are twisted by personal vendetta, bad advisors and a misplaced convinction that all he do is excatly what Grommash would have wanted for the Horde.

In MoP we simply see Garrosh just partially following his father mistakes, beliving that the only, true mistake of his father was lead the orcs to slavery, but he doesn't see or understand the others, he never did, even in Heart of War was clear that he didn't have a clear idea of the why the decisions of his father were so terrible. And so he's doing the same mistakes of his father simply because he doesn't see them as such, and like Grom put power and the "means justify actions" mantra above everything else now.

There is a grain of truth to your words, however MoP built up too much evilness upon that foundation with no positive side. He was simplified to an extreme. Back in Cataclysm he at least demonstarted justice, now he acts worse than the guy he executed.

"A NAME IS A CLOAK OF LETTERS THROWN UPON A MAN. IT MEANS NOTHING." - Transcendent One, Planescape: Torment.

Capt back then during Cata, Herat of War, and the Shattering it showed Garrosh as a ruthless fighter but one who still had morals and guidelines on how one should fight

---------- Post added 2013-05-26 at 07:04 PM ----------

Kinda does a poor job as to the why.
In Tides of War there were no talk or inner monolouge or anything about Garrosh weighing the options and deciding victory trumps all regardless of methods.

And only mention we get of that was from Baine, where he says Garrosh once killed a general for leaving nothing but a crater, and how the mana bomb is eerily similar and blah blah
But thats basically it

Guidelines? Maybe.

Morals? Not that much.

Garrosh never, and i say NEVER showed a thought, externally or internally, about the fact that war engagement needed some limits about the way to engage it. For him an enemy is just an enemy, and so needed to be crushed, an act necessary for shows strength and induce submission to the said enemy; the fact that do it so was only worth with open, brutal and "honorable" attacks and not with tricks, ambushes, mental manipulations or destructive devices was not indeed because he thought these were unethicals or whatever, but only because there wasn't glory and pride in defeating an enemy in such ways, was "shameful" because was like a proof of weakness, because someone that needed such things obviously didn't have the strength necessary for bring down an enemy with his own hands.

Still, while he tried to convince himself about it, when i reread Heart of War i realized that he seemed a bit forced about the open smashing of Blackscar, and the short-story, to me, seems to maliciously hint it. Yeah, Garrosh would never had thought to give an order like ambushing an Alliance platoon, still the fact that this happened and this very event prevented the Alliance from conquering the first gate of Icecrown made him feels a lot relieved, which was a lot different from Thrall's reaction, that immediatily outbursted about the shameful and dishonorable act.
This, combined with Thrall's and Saurfang's eyes aimed at him (is excatly like is wrote in the short-story), put a lot of pressure on him, deciding in the end to openly and hardly blames Blackscar for all the matter, which was useful too for redeem himself to Thrall's eyes about his behavior in Dalaran.

What this proves is that while Garrosh have "guidelines", he's not steady and unbending about it, unlike Thrall. Let's combine it with his naive and malleable personality that he showed in the Shattering by trusting Magatha, and the game is done. In the Shattering he doesn't still show any kind of moral, he's upset about the death of Cairne only because Magatha "stole" his honorable combat, in fact was nothing more than an egoistical annoyance, and ofcourse he did nothing for supports Baine, despite his opinion about Magatha was clear.

In Cataclysm his famous scene in Stonetalon doesn't show great morals, but only the fact that he isn't a monster. What Krom'gar did was completely meaningless, he even pretended that the night elves hid a destructive weapon inside the scholar's tree, and when the tauren chieftain sent his son to find proves about it, Krom'gar's men KILLED him, because was nothing but an excuse for using the bomb, leaving a big crater, and shows the "power" of the Horde, while killing innocent people, allies of the orcs, not enemies, and for what? Nothing.
Garrosh understood that Krom'gar was a complete moron, and executed him for this. Plus, Krom'gar "laided waste to the land", actually damaging the Stonetalon Mountains, again for no reason, while Garrosh wanted the land secured for the Horde, with expandable resources, not a land destroyed "because".

Garrosh never had morals about how to kill his enemies, only some kind of guideline about how much "honorable" was to do so, until a particular situation or a particular advisor didn't suggest that for the "greater good" were necessary more efficient and more effective ways for destroy the spirit of a persistent obstacle to his goals. It's sufficient read the first pages of Tides of War, for understand that Garrosh's decisions are not all by his own, but suggested by his new "bodyguard":

-Garrosh says that Lor'themar is worth to be watched, because of his ambiguous words;
-Malkorok immeditialy says that ALL of them are worth watching, and initially Garrosh thinks about all the Horde leaders;
-Malkorok continue to suggests that is necessary not to watch just the said leaders, but every freaking member of the Horde, carefully explaining to him that some orcs displayed disagreement with his decisions;
-Garrosh at this point, for avoid internal problems caused by vocal discontent, agrees with Malkorok's point of view and even "gift" him with four Kor'kron forming a Gestapo squad.

and that's it, we have a questionable decision that Garrosh haven't absolutely conceived by himself, he has just been fed like a baby by Malkorok, so to bring his leader to the "right direction".

In Wolfheart there is no clear explanation aswell, since he still followed his "honorable guideline", more than sure to be able to crush the night elves with the sole strenght of the Horde's warrior spirit, plus some legit external help (submitted magnataur); still that novel is the base for which Garrosh have all that bitterness for the elves in Tides of War, he still want to take their resources, but in ToW he wants to kick them out from Kalimdor (and makes genocide of them when this failed) because he didn't forget his defeat, almost humiliation, by the hands of Varian and the fierce opposition the elves displayed, something that his pride indeed had big problems to accept it, and the presence of Malkorok didn't help at all to keep in check this bitterness, on the contrary the Blackrock indeed fueled it.

---------- Post added 2013-05-26 at 10:35 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Haven

There is a grain of truth to your words, however MoP built up too much evilness upon that foundation with no positive side. He was simplified to an extreme. Back in Cataclysm he at least demonstarted justice, now he acts worse than the guy he executed.

Evilness? Which kind of "evil" Garrosh did excatly?

-The Divine Bell: he tried to weaponize the Sha for strengthen his army, erasing their fears, doubts, hatred ecc. for permit the orcs to drop down any weakness and ensure their victory in the war against the Alliance. Not an evil act by itself, even the Alliance thought about doing the same thing, only Anduin suggested that wasn't a good thing to do. And Garrosh never had the high ideals and morals of Anduin. When he understood that even his best Kor'kron and best warrior cannot properly control the Sha, he decided that will try to control it by himself.

-Vol'jin's murder: no doubt a suggestion of Malkorok, that Garrosh accepted with little problems since the troll always opposed him, and in fact, he never liked Vol'jin from the beginning, nor he never liked the trolls. He just wanted to be sure that Vol'jin's elimination, killing him in a lost cave and submitting the Darkspear in their home, wouldn't create too much confusion in the Horde, and the program he had in mind could continue. Too bad Thrall fucked it a little.

-The troll's "genocide": his original plan was to keep control and submission to them, but Thrall's intervention made Garrosh lose his grasp to the Echo Isles, and with the return of Vol'jin that survived the attempted murder (another unexpected outcome) the rebellion is born, and now Garrosh have no choices but openly smash it to the ground, helped by the fact that most of the orcs don't know absolutely nothing about Vol'jin tried murder and the Kor'kron attack to the trolls in the 5.1, so for them the trolls just lost their minds.

Seriously, Garrosh did until now a lot of questionable things, but there is no "evil" intentions, he's simply following his own agenda, all his desire to ensure the orcs prosperity like he said in Heart of War it's still there, simply his ways and methods for ensure it are by now twisted by a decent number of factors.

The fact that we discovered that all the mess in Ragefire is completely under his control is the first thing that is putting him in the "evil" wagon. But we simply don't know nothing about it yet, the fact that Garrosh was doing all these things under Orgrimmar even before arriving in Pandaria means that there is something more behind all this mess.