a Pettion to get the chinese to stop repressive measures ? Surely Pettions only have effect on people who care about them. If governments are willing to mow people over in Tanks and crush grass roots demonstrations against harmful policies theres not going to be alot of chance they will be effected by a peice of paper.

Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

Governments, if they are wise, keep tabs on the ebb and flow of public opinion. For instance, if the Chinese were to see western public opinion moving strongly against them, at some point they would have to act in order to save international trade and diplomatic relations. The petition is in that sense additional pressure.

Westerners should probably sort their sheet out first. Occupy wall street and sort out EU before trying to commit to whats happening in Tibet. When ya own countries are crumbling down, how you gonna help those homeboys in Asia?

Not to mention most Chinese people still harbour the victim mentality from the sores of world war 2 and past European colonisation, so most of the protest in the West will be seen by Chinese people as attacking them. Since even most Tiawanese and Chinese from overseas sees Tibet as a part of China historically.

Although I wager most Chinese Buddhists will be sympathetic to the Tibetans, not to mention many are turning to Tibetan Buddhism as well. So in the end it's up to the Chinese people to save the Tibet. Not to by Western protestors.

And espeically not by people who encourage this self-immolation sheet!

Caz wrote:a Pettion to get the chinese to stop repressive measures ? Surely Pettions only have effect on people who care about them. If governments are willing to mow people over in Tanks and crush grass roots demonstrations against harmful policies theres not going to be alot of chance they will be effected by a peice of paper.

lol exactly my thoughts. don't get me wrong though i am in full support of tibetan independence under the stipulation that a proper democracy be put in place rather than the feudal rule prior to the invasion.

Caz wrote:a Pettion to get the chinese to stop repressive measures ? Surely Pettions only have effect on people who care about them. If governments are willing to mow people over in Tanks and crush grass roots demonstrations against harmful policies theres not going to be alot of chance they will be effected by a peice of paper.

lol exactly my thoughts. don't get me wrong though i am in full support of tibetan independence under the stipulation that a proper democracy be put in place rather than the feudal rule prior to the invasion.

No one is planning to install feudal rule in Tibet.

And actually this petition is not at all a petition against Chinese occupation of Tibet or for Tibetan independence. It is a petition for Western Governments to pressure the Chinese Government to allow the human rights situation to be assessed by independent observers. For that reason the TYC does not agree with it although they haven't rejected it.

zangskar wrote:It is a petition for Western Governments to pressure the Chinese Government to allow the human rights situation to be assessed by independent observers.

America is rallying up all it's Asian allies to chanllenge sea territorial claims with China and talking about stationing more troops in Australia. Do you think it's a good time to pressure these issues? Especially when it comes to dealing with China, Western goverment are not doing it for humanitarian reasons.

"Outsiders" can pressure all they like, but if the Chinese feels threatened or pressured, they are going to comply?

zangskar wrote:It is a petition for Western Governments to pressure the Chinese Government to allow the human rights situation to be assessed by independent observers.

America is rallying up all it's Asian allies to chanllenge sea territorial claims with China and talking about stationing more troops in Australia. Do you think it's a good time to pressure these issues? Especially when it comes to dealing with China, Western goverment are not doing it for humanitarian reasons.

"Outsiders" can pressure all they like, but if the Chinese feels threatened or pressured, they are going to comply?

In an earlier post I gave a different reason for not liking the wording of this particular petition. So I am not really defending it, I just thought I would write a reminder on what the petition was actually about.

It is true that foreign interest and support is a double edged sword. But I believe that with regards to human rights issues there is now a development, even if very uneven and with lots of hypocrisy involved, toward an international consensus that human rights violations are just not acceptable, though there is not any agreement on what the consequences of violating human rights are supposed to be - that's the hypocrisy part of it. But it actually hurts China a lot when it's human rights image is torn. It is bad for the prestige of China internationally that they can't handle the situation in Tibet. You are right that there will be no direct and acknowledged effect of foreign pressure, because China like all other states does not want to look like it accepts orders from abroad, but I am sure there are indirect effects even if they are too slow.

China usually claims there are not really any problems in Tibet, only some small groups making noise. So since there is supposedly nothing to hide, they have no reason to close off the borders to journalists, etc, and it is only proper to demand that Tibet is opened, so everyone can see what is actually happening.

I have already signed this - and other - petitions. I beleive that the more support for Tibetan freedom, the more pressure upon world govts to act rather than smile and nod and then smile and nod at the Chinese as well. It seems to currently be building up and some nations have made a stand against Chinese govt 'dictations'. I noted when the US president met HHDL despite the Chinese telling him not to, when the US withdrew financial aid to the Chinese poor and gave financial aid to Tibetan exiles.... I beleive Australia are also seriously looking into standing up against the Chinese since these recent events.... Whatever the future holds, as a practitioner of Tibetan Buddhism, I will continue to support Tibetan freedom. One other point - I think that signing petitions to support freedom for Tibet gives those in Tibet hope - they will learn that other people DO care and will keep on caring. This support those of us that sign give surely would therefore help Tibetans lessen the need to continue taking their own lives, rather than hinder it?

Caz wrote:a Pettion to get the chinese to stop repressive measures ? Surely Pettions only have effect on people who care about them. If governments are willing to mow people over in Tanks and crush grass roots demonstrations against harmful policies theres not going to be alot of chance they will be effected by a peice of paper.

lol exactly my thoughts. don't get me wrong though i am in full support of tibetan independence under the stipulation that a proper democracy be put in place rather than the feudal rule prior to the invasion.

Yes I agree I also support the peoples will to choose whom they are governed by. Being a realist though they only way I can see china changing their stance will be through gradual democratisation and liberalisations of their internal policies even so this could be fairly long process and with no result in Tibetan self governence at all so for now the best thing to hope for is that the Chinese government will steadily come to appreciate Indiginous Tibetan culture and its valuable religious heratage and be less iron fisted with their subjects this is something to campaign for it would actually be of far greater benefit to sentient beings and much more easy to accomplish then throwing an individuals weight behind a protest movement that a state superpower will continue to oppose. Fortunatly there are those I believe who are working within Tibet to benefit this cause several Lama's and If a Buddha's compassion is anything to compared to perhapes this Chinese selected Panchen Lama may be an emination after all what better way then to help people then be in a position where one is able to ?

Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

Caz wrote:There are certainly lamas working for the benefit of others in Tibet just as HHDL has worked for the benefit of (most) the exile community.

Though this may be true, it is not the point of this thread AND you may not have noticed but the petition is asking the Chinese governement to reduce repressive measures, it is NOT asking the Chinese government to allow Tibet its national autonomy. The petition also has NOTHING to do with reinstating feudal theocracies, the validity of the (Chinese backed) Panchen Lama, Gyalpos, Tibetan internal politics and a whole lot of other nonsense that people are tryng to highjack this thread with in order to push their political wheelbarrow.

This topic was started in good faith and was to bring to the attention of members of Dharma Wheel a petition.

We have to act fast -- this horrific situation is spiraling out of control behind a censorship curtain. Over and over we have seen that when diplomats themselves bear witness to atrocities, they are motivated to act, and increase political pressure. Let’s answer Palden's tragic cry and build a massive petition to the six world leaders with the most influence in Beijing to send a mission to Tibet and speak out against the repression. Sign the urgent petition on the right!

The Petition

To Presidents Barack Obama and Nicolas Sarkozy, Prime Ministers David Cameron, Julia Gillard and Manmohan Singh, and EU Commissioner Catherine Ashton:A rising number of Tibetans are taking their lives through self immolation in a desperate cry to the world to stop the escalating Chinese crackdown. As shocked citizens, we call on you to urgently send an independent high-level mission to the area and to speak out against the ongoing repression. Only coordinated and swift diplomatic action can stop this crisis.

Ryoto wrote:Hopefully this doesn't turn into e-sangha where independent thought was not allowed. Kind of like communist china

Anyways back on topic

Everyone can think whatever they like however those who sign up to to become a member of Dharma Wheel at the point of joining agree to abide by the Terms of Service. No one is forced to join or post. Terms of Service

People aren't ignorant in China. It's a country deeply rooted in the Dharma and history. Anyone who's been there will know that information can still be accessed quite easily. Do people still think Chinese people are communist aliens? They think no different to any body on this forum. Some are nationalists, some are conservatives, some are liberals, some do it for the lulz.

Are you all lay BUDDHISTS or just lay people in general? Because it seems to me that the Dharma is irrelevant to when it doesn't involve frivilous debate about metaphysics? As soon as someone opens a can of political sauce everyone throws away the Dharma and allows themselves to be controlled by ignorant instincts.

Caz wrote:a Pettion to get the chinese to stop repressive measures ? Surely Pettions only have effect on people who care about them. If governments are willing to mow people over in Tanks and crush grass roots demonstrations against harmful policies theres not going to be alot of chance they will be effected by a peice of paper.

lol exactly my thoughts. don't get me wrong though i am in full support of tibetan independence under the stipulation that a proper democracy be put in place rather than the feudal rule prior to the invasion.

Yes I agree I also support the peoples will to choose whom they are governed by. Being a realist though they only way I can see china changing their stance will be through gradual democratisation and liberalisations of their internal policies even so this could be fairly long process and with no result in Tibetan self governence at all so for now the best thing to hope for is that the Chinese government will steadily come to appreciate Indiginous Tibetan culture and its valuable religious heratage and be less iron fisted with their subjects this is something to campaign for it would actually be of far greater benefit to sentient beings and much more easy to accomplish then throwing an individuals weight behind a protest movement that a state superpower will continue to oppose. Fortunatly there are those I believe who are working within Tibet to benefit this cause several Lama's and If a Buddha's compassion is anything to compared to perhapes this Chinese selected Panchen Lama may be an emination after all what better way then to help people then be in a position where one is able to ?

Tibetans seemed to be very happy with what you call a feudal system, so happy that it's common knowledge their love and devotion for the present Dalai Lama. Plus, it is not as if the present Dalai Lama can be blamed for the old system. When it comes to politics things, as always, are far more complex than such simplistic idea that implicitly tries to cartoonize HHDL in such a negative way. Sometimes we need to be a little less ethnocentric and also to look at our own history of genocidal wars, occupations, tyrannies and so on. It took us time to reach democracy. It wasn't perfect in Tibet, for sure, but now the Communist repression is far worse.Still, HHDL doesn't oppose to a democratic government and he said that several times already.Of course there are those who want to see the Dalai Lama out of their way, who have the support of the Communist regime and work to undermine HH credibility by spreading lies and misinformation. Being supported by the regime, they can work from within, receive funding from the party and so on and so forth.It will be great if indeed the Chinese government would start respecting and appreciating Tibetan culture but in its diversity and as a whole, not only a certain sub-part that considers some aspects of it less worthy. The problem is that many people who work from within and without to "help the Tibetan cause" are only pursuing their sectarianist objectives cloaking their actions with hypocrisy. This doesn't help the tibetans at all, but fills the coffers of these people.The Chinese selected Panchen Lama is a political puppet and has no credibility beyond the said groups that try to work against HHDL. Going against HHDL is going against the Tibetan people, HH main concern. It's a true shame that some people, from different quadrants and associations, go to the point of recognizing the legitimacy of a sockpuppuet of the PRC as being a reincarnate lama only to fulfill their agenda.

Food_Eatah wrote:People aren't ignorant in China. It's a country deeply rooted in the Dharma and history. Anyone who's been there will know that information can still be accessed quite easily. Do people still think Chinese people are communist aliens? They think no different to any body on this forum. Some are nationalists, some are conservatives, some are liberals, some do it for the lulz.

Are you all lay BUDDHISTS or just lay people in general? Because it seems to me that the Dharma is irrelevant to when it doesn't involve frivilous debate about metaphysics? As soon as someone opens a can of political sauce everyone throws away the Dharma and allows themselves to be controlled by ignorant instincts.

excuse-moi, but it seems like a large percentage of the population of China agrees that Tibet has always been a part of China. If this is due to communist brainwashing or just general ignorance, you pick. but even more disturbing is that it turns out that many young chinese who come to the west or anywhere outside china to study, and therefore have no excuse, are just as adamant about Tibet being part of China. so, saying "people aren't ignorant in china" is a bit ifficult to agree with. let me add that many people everywhere are pretty ignorant, but about different things. the chinese peoples ignorance about tibet and the cultural genocide that is following in its wake, is just partcularly obvious and horrifying at the moment. the only thing almost as bad that i can think of recently is the idiots who voted for Bush the second time or supported the invasion of Iraq.

Thoroughly tame your own mind.This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.

How is signing a petition going to do anything? Every forumer on dharmawheel has likely spent thousands or even tens of thousands of dollars on products sourced or produced from China. Power in our society is expressed through money and military force, not online polls. The amount of power every dharmawheel forumer has given to China likely far dwarfs what they have given to the now minority of Tibetans in occupied Tibet. Thus, just imagine how little most people who couldn't care about buddhists or Tibet think and act on this issue, if even we act this way: "look we took 30 seconds to sign an insignificant poll."