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04:07:48 hoi
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07:08:16 how do i set a default case with cond??
07:10:59 (cond ... (else 5))
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07:32:50 thx bro
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08:04:46 (cond ... (1 5)) works too and is 3 characters shorters ;-)
08:05:06 but awful to read
08:06:25 (#t 5) would be more clear (and CL like) but since the advent of call-with-current-continuation shortening an else with #t does not improve typing speed as much as it hinders reading the code
08:10:41 -!- shoerant is now known as shoerain
08:15:50 are you saying programming is a race to use as few characters as possible?
08:16:04 why am i naming my variable n_until_complete?
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08:23:08 Operaist2: No, I'm just toying with a newbie this morning :-)
08:23:53 And you should name it n-until-complete, this is not C.
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10:12:07 any srfi etc. proc for picking the last element of a list?
10:12:12 thinking of implementing a list-ref-r procedure
10:12:37 SRFI-1 has `last'
10:12:43 aha
10:13:23 super, thx
10:14:06 oh my, john mccarthy passed away! ?
10:14:30 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
10:15:05 Yes, a week or two ago.
10:16:36 :(
10:16:59 i had on my schedule to contact him to meet for a coffee/tea next time i'd be by the valley.
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10:17:46 well, this was not intended then, simply.
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12:17:28 Economist's tribute to McCarthy & Richtie: http://www.economist.com/node/21536536
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12:20:33 *Brendan_T* thought for a moment that the two pics were of the same person
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12:25:02 did anyone implement a Java virtual machine in Scheme, i.e. to load and run Java class files in a Scheme environment?
12:25:08 jit => scheme code i suppose
12:26:12 BW^-: felix (chicken) has implemented a static java bytecode -> scheme compiler.
12:26:42 mario-goulart: cool, do you have any idea of its name?
12:27:02 is there any -> scheme converter for other very popular languages, like shellscript, perl or ruby?
12:28:37 They often say that the beauty of Common Lisp is that it's highly adaptable to different programming "paradigms"... Could this be said of scheme as well?
12:28:51 yes
12:28:53 dostoyevsky: yes.
12:29:11 dostoyevsky: in terms of fundamental programming concepts, you can view scheme as superior to CL
12:29:37 dostoyevsky: scheme's focus is mathematical-logical excellence and completeness in all ways - symmetry and holisticness if you will
12:30:07 BW^-: it was cvjm. Felix's removed it from the svn repo, but it can still be recevered from the repo hitory.
12:30:15 dostoyevsky: cl's main emphasis as a lisp is to provide practical functionality, this is where the standard library and their metaobjectprotocol comes in
12:30:55 mario-goulart: are you aware if it was fully working, stable and so on? why remove it from the web, better split it out to a separate package and keep it online to keep it available and so on
12:31:04 BW^-: neither
12:31:14 BW^-: http://bugs.call-cc.org/browser/release/4/cvjm/trunk?rev=23838
12:31:30 BW^-: it does not work (yet) with the standard lib and it has not been tested much besides experimentation
12:31:50 BW^-: more info: http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/chicken-users/2011-02/msg00127.html
12:36:02 c-keen,mario-goulart: very nice, it's a very good project
12:36:34 BW^-: If you want to improve it, felix will happily accept patches.
12:36:44 c-keen,mario-goulart: as scheme is a higher quality language fundamentally while java has widespread use, it's always very practical for certain things to have the ability to run java things in it
12:37:01 Indeed.
12:37:09 BW^-: this has not been needed much though
12:37:19 BW^-: there's also Kawa Scheme and SISC
12:37:23 c-keen: do you know anything about how much of the standard library it supports?
12:37:29 BW^-: which are also able to interop with Java
12:37:55 BW^-: no, I gave it a try once to provide some feedback but since I don't need it for my work, I neglected it
12:37:56 dergutemoritz: yes, though those are scheme on java (not java on scheme as the abovementioned project). i'm with you that there's ample of applications for that also though.
12:38:25 BW^-: right
12:40:35 So how do CL's reader macros compare to scheme's syntax-based macros? I always felt that CL had a little more flexibility in that area
12:40:56 Reader macros are a dangerous flexibility that, IIRC, harms flexibility in other areas
12:41:37 As it complicates the semantics of (read) no end ;-)
12:41:45 dostoyevsky: several scheme implementations have define-macro also, just fyi.
12:42:06 define-macro is different to reader macros
12:42:30 some scheme implementations also allow the definition of reader macros
12:42:47 And there's identifier macros, too; another feature with an arguable danger/merit tradeoff
12:43:09 mario-goulart,c-keen: do you have any idea about what the talk about making an import for the "GNU classpath library" is about? i mean, what's the need of having it in this project, to make it run java code?
12:44:04 GNU classpath is an implementation of the Java libraries. Core language + libraries = full language :-) A JVM only implements the core language, you need the libraries as well to run nontrivial Java code.
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12:44:22 BW^-: I don't know much about it, but I suppose it means importing the GNU classpath would be handy for doing anything useful.
12:44:51 mario-goulart: huh ok. well i suppose the next step would be to look up what that is about.
12:45:01 Racket's #reader seems a reasonable compromise
12:45:07 well, thank you a lot for pointing it out, it's very nice to know this is there.
12:45:09 BW^-: are you still talking about cvjm?
12:45:19 yep
12:45:50 BW^-: cvjm will *compile* java byte code to scheme, meaning if you want to use the whole gnu classpath lib you need to compile it beforehand
12:45:57 BW^-: you're welcome. Feel free to resurrect that project. AFAIK, felix gave up on it only because nobody seemed interested in it.
12:46:23 BW^-: and compiling the classpath lib currently fails with cvjm due to bugs/unimplemented features in cvjm's code
12:49:08 With respect to reader macros: The crucial issue, I think, is that (read) is used for both code and data, and reader macros that make code easier complicate the simple task of writing data and reading it back again for I/O.
12:49:27 Many schemes have a special reader they use for source code, that preserves line number information etc.
12:49:38 c-keen: aha. i suppose felix is the one who knows specifically what in cvjm's code needs to be made to work for this to work
12:49:48 Ideally, such macros should only be used in *that* reader.
12:50:01 alaricsp: I have started to make a custom reader that allows parameterization of all reader features!
12:50:05 c-keen: it'd be interesting to see some of the scheme code output, do you have any idea if this is available anywhere?
12:50:28 alaricsp: so you can e.g. configure it to only allow lists and symbols but no vectors, strings, etc.
12:51:00 or even extend it for special purposes without affecting the code reader
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12:51:25 DerGuteMoritz: Interesting
12:51:46 Perhaps Scheme needs a separate serialize/deserialize that's just meant for shipping values to places portably
12:52:03 perhaps
12:52:15 Doesn't even do 'foo -> (quote foo) and all that
12:52:44 But that pains me slightly, making code and data "more different"
12:52:48 Or, we just avoid reader macros ;-)
12:53:21 -!- gienah [~mwright@ppp121-44-206-139.lns20.syd7.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: leaving]
12:53:31 but prohibiting reader macros in the standard doesn't seem like a good idea either
12:54:00 Is there any kind of comparison function in scheme that returns -1/0/1 à la C ? So that one can swith on a single comparison ?
12:55:06 c-keen,mario-goulart: looked through cvjm's code a bit now, i'm very impressed, it's a truly minimalistic implementation (~60KB code for compiler, ~30KB for runtime)
12:55:22 http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-67/srfi-67.html
12:55:50 rudybot: eval (require srfi/67)
12:55:51 ijp: your plai sandbox is ready
12:55:52 ijp: Done.
12:56:02 rudybot: eval (if3 -1 'a 'b 'c)
12:56:03 ijp: ; Value: a
12:56:06 rudybot: eval (if3 0 'a 'b 'c)
12:56:07 ijp: ; Value: b
12:56:09 rudybot: eval (if3 1 'a 'b 'c)
12:56:10 ijp: ; Value: c
12:56:27 rixed: ^^
12:56:39 *alaricsp* loves people like ijp that always know which SRFI holds the answer to one's problems!
12:56:57 haha
12:57:03 ijp, ijp, is there a procedure in Scheme that will make me rich and succesful?
12:57:08 *alaricsp* sits back hopefully
12:57:09 alaricsp: (error)
12:57:41 ijp: looks nice! thank you!
12:58:38 hm.. what about .Net, is there any C# jit code VM around that compiles to scheme code?
12:58:47 alaricsp: I hear it's in WG2
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13:02:23 alaricsp: call/cc could be used for the "rich" part if you manage to capture a continuation of your bank account transaction while money is being transferred to it and then call it in an infinite loop!
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13:05:09 alaricsp: when in doubt, use srfi-42
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13:06:07 Too bad it doesn't provide the answer to life, universe and everything
13:07:08 but it's eagerly trying to comprehend it
13:07:16 srfi-42 should have been reserved to be used as a meta-srfi.
13:08:23 Belaf [~campedel@net-2-32-206-219.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #scheme
13:11:03 :-)
13:14:10 drwho [~drwho@208.7.157.62] has joined #scheme
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13:37:52 alaricsp: In the earlier days something vaguely related to AI might have made you rich and famous....
13:38:04 Belaf [~campedel@net-2-32-206-219.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #scheme
13:39:05 (call-with-artificial-intelligence (lambda () ...))
13:39:24 impressive
13:39:48 (call-with-high-hopes ...)
13:42:42 alaricsp: :)
13:47:13 (call-with-dog-whistle ...)
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13:47:39 heh
13:47:45 (call-with-trepidation , (call-with-misgivings , (call-with-little-hope-of-a-result ...
13:48:03 ;-)
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13:58:48 is there a way to set! (cadr a-list) ?
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14:01:30 some schemes support generalized set! and can (set! (cadr a-list) value), but you can always (set-car! (cdr a-list) val) instead
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14:03:08 there's a srfi for that, too!
14:03:12 ijp: I need to set! cadar of a list and having hard times..
14:03:30 yes, srfi 17
14:03:58 looks like racket doesn't have set-car!
14:04:21 racket is not scheme though
14:04:27 racket uses immutable pairs
14:04:31 *DerGuteMoritz* nitpicks
14:04:32 :-)
14:04:36 damn
14:04:40 mutable pairs are available through the mpair library
14:05:03 rudybot: eval (require racket/mpair)
14:05:03 ijp: Done.
14:05:21 ok, anyone knows any better scheme interpreter to work through SICP? I almost finished section 2 with racket(I'm using emacs, quack.el)
14:05:47 rudybot: eval (let ((a (mcons 1 2))) (set-mcar! a 'a) a)
14:05:47 ijp: ; Value: {a . 2}
14:06:34 If you use #lang r5rs, it will have mutable pairs
14:06:54 ijp: I have no idea what I'm using
14:07:00 ok, whatever
14:07:00 I think somebody mentioned a SICP package for Racket the other day
14:07:17 or was it for Guile?
14:07:25 I just neet get and put functions to solve problems in SICP 2.4.3
14:07:30 and 2.4.4
14:07:47 I was trying to write them myself but I didn't know this immutable pair thing
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14:08:06 (set-car! skoda-fabia #t) ;; Yes, it's a car.
14:10:39 rudybot: my other car is a cdr, &c
14:10:39 ijp: (let ((l (cdr (assoc "test" aalist)))) (apply (first l) (rest l))) is more what SNBarnett wants, I think.
14:10:48 ok, if anyone else is wondering, this put and get functions for SICP 2.4.3 works great http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5499005/how-do-i-get-the-functions-put-and-get-in-sicp-scheme-exercise-2-78-and-on
14:10:49 http://tinyurl.com/7g8824j
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14:20:39 DerGuteMoritz, bsod1: There is a #lang sicp for Racket.
14:20:53 ah yes, that's what I meant
14:21:33 asumu: I have no idea what is #lang
14:21:33 (call-with-hipster-smirk ...
14:21:51 (call-with-air-quotes '...)
14:22:50 bsod1: #lang specifies which language a racket file will use.
14:23:29 http://code.call-cc.org/cgi-bin/gitweb.cgi?p=chicken-core.git;a=blob;f=library.scm;h=8075c2fd70887ca298b8e46f8e96543e0bcb3c11;hb=HEAD#l1535
14:23:29 http://tinyurl.com/7ww7q5j
14:23:48 ijp: I don't use racket's IDE. I'm using emacs with Racket interpreter, is there a way to load this #lang without racket IDE?
14:25:47 I think you can just (require) it
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14:32:25 hi
14:33:02 why this S-exp: (eq? 'a (car '('a))) returns #f?
14:33:32 rudybot: (car '('a))
14:33:33 fds: your sandbox is ready
14:33:33 fds: ; Value: (quote a)
14:34:39 hkuieagle: you only need to quote the outermost expression, what you probably meant is (car '(a))
14:35:02 hkuieagle: in your code the inner quote is quoted, too!
14:35:13 thus what fds said through rudybot :-)
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14:39:05 DerGuteMoritz: ok, but (car '('a)) values (quote a), which reduce (eq? 'a (car '('a)) to (eq? 'a (quote a)) which is #t.
14:39:36 hkuieagle: no, '(quote a) is a list while
14:39:43 err evaluates to a list
14:39:48 while 'a evaluates to a symbol
14:40:50 rudybot: ''a
14:40:50 fds: ; Value: (quote a)
14:40:57 rudybot: '('a)
14:40:57 fds: ; Value: ((quote a))
14:41:16 And other fun things.
14:45:06 DerGuteMoritz, fds: ok, I got it, thx
14:45:31 yw :-)
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14:46:11 hi! does somebody have Qi II experience?
14:46:23 isn't that Shen?
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14:48:58 Shen is a successor if Qi II.
14:49:02 s/if/of/
14:50:19 ah, I see
14:54:25 bsod1: http://www.neilvandyke.org/racket-sicp/ (you may or may not be able easily use this at the REPL)
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15:03:38 asumu: thanks, will try
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16:36:08 hi
16:36:42 Hello!
16:36:44 What's your name?
16:36:46 I'm Alaric!
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16:37:55 i wanted to ask if somebody knows how to start a repl in racket on the terminal with r6rs as language instead of racket
16:38:20 alaricsp: do you mean me?
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16:40:01 keenbug: I didn't think Racket's r6rs mode is REPL-compatible, but I'm sure eli will correct me.
16:40:32 I seem to recall some talk that R6RS wasn't REPL-compatible due to something about modules and macros, actually
16:40:42 (even aside from any implementation decisions in Racket)
16:40:49 But, yes, eli is your man for Racket questions, I gather.
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16:41:29 cky: but in drracket you actually have a repl
16:42:18 keenbug: In r6rs mode? Huh.
16:42:49 yeah, you only have to add the appropriate import for a r6rs script
16:42:55 Guys ever seen this, by the way? http://google-collections.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/javadoc/com/google/common/collect/Maps.html#transformValues(java.util.Map, com.google.common.base.Function)
16:42:55 http://tinyurl.com/7a5clre
16:43:14 klutometis: Of course.
16:43:19 Closest to functional programming I've ever seen in Java; was on the way to implementing something similar. Leave it to Google to do the trick.
16:43:33 cky: Really? I've been out of the Java loop for a few years. Maybe some things have changed.
16:43:40 Yes, I write lots of functional-style Java code at work using Guava.
16:44:04 I actually wrote (and am writing more) slides to teach my workmates on using Guava.
16:44:07 It's awesome.
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16:44:39 keenbug: See http://blog.racket-lang.org/2008/06/plt-scheme-version-4.html
16:44:41 cky: Holy shit; thanks for the tip.
16:45:08 klutometis: I'll link you the slides when I'm not in an actual session. :-)
16:45:14 *cky* is currently attending Clojure/conj.
16:45:36 cky: Oh, congratulations! Wanted to go myself.
16:45:42 :-D
16:45:46 I see now, btw, that Guava replaces the old Collections stuff.
16:46:04 Yes. Google Collections have been deprecated for a long time, now.
16:49:54 cky: Sorry to bug you; but, Jesus, man: this may be as revolutionary as org-mode.
16:50:01 1. https://docs.google.com/present/view?id=0AY_pKEaed-eVZGc3YmI2bWpfMGc1N2ozeGQ4&hl=en&authkey=CPH1554J&pli=1
16:50:02 http://tinyurl.com/84xv894
16:50:24 2. https://docs.google.com/present/view?id=0AY_pKEaed-eVZGc3YmI2bWpfMWRtYmZ2ZmZo&hl=en&authkey=CJrh46cC&pli=1
16:50:24 http://tinyurl.com/7mego94
16:50:39 I haven't written 3 yet. Busy with work. :-P
16:50:41 cky: Cool, thanks.
16:51:00 There's more to Guava than just pseudo-functional programming, though; preconditions, etc.
16:51:05 This is fantastic.
16:51:12 Oh yeah, it's like Boost for Java.
16:53:26 alaricsp: there is no description about the command-line racket, there is only said how to get the r6rs repl in drrackt
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16:56:06 cky: Good stuff, by the way; some of the slides have a "wall of text" feel: but good information density.
16:58:01 Thanks! I am trying to make the future slides less dense. :-)
17:00:08 Bizarre; I leave Java for a few years, and all of a sudden pseudo-functional programming, maven.
17:00:24 *klutometis* has to reevaluate his contempt.
17:00:41 Nah.
17:01:47 NullPointerException
17:02:13 Heh.
17:02:54 klutometis: oh, and Flash is dead.
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17:22:35 qu1j0t3: Let's hope it can be fully replaced by HTML5/JavaScript/CSS3, without being as obscure
17:24:08 dostoyevsky: I see some people hoping that will happen.
17:24:15 dostoyevsky: there's many a slip 'twixt cup and lip.
17:24:27 dostoyevsky: Flash and Silverlight were symptoms, not the disease, imho :D
17:24:49 klutometis: Is maven a good thing? I remember it from around 2005, how long have you not been using Java?
17:25:49 *qu1j0t3* looked at maven in 2007, seemed over-complex for what we were doing. so did Hibernate.
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17:25:59 Well, at least Adobe has no clue about proper Software Development, at least judging from all the bugs i keep seeing in Illustrator at the moment...
17:26:07 dostoyevsky: yus
17:26:14 dostoyevsky: that's traditional. in the 80s I used to report bugs to them.
17:26:20 dostoyevsky: in the 90s they stopped listening.
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17:26:34 dostoyevsky: by 2004, the stress from their bad OS X software was unbearable.
17:26:50 qu1j0t3: The answer is always: Restart your computer... Reinstall software... Works like magic but is annoying
17:27:01 dostoyevsky: their engineering is under-resourced. and arrogant.
17:27:05 dostoyevsky: bad combination :D
17:27:37 dostoyevsky: I still remember Illustrator 9.0 vividly.
17:27:44 dostoyevsky: it lasted 2 weeks in our studio, never, ever to return.
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17:29:25 qu1j0t3: But but but, Maven is like APT for Java! :-P
17:30:46 cky: I'll let others find that out!
17:30:50 *qu1j0t3* doesn't do java currently
17:31:28 :-P
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17:34:10 qu1j0t3: I am using 14... I am happy that it at least works somehow. Maybe I should move it into a VirtualBox/Read-Only image... But then it might become too slow
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17:35:03 dostoyevsky: i'm sure they've removed _some_ bugs in the last 8 years... hopefully more than they added...
17:38:48 dostoyevsky: Four years, probably; back then, ant was de rigueur and maven was infantile. Maven seems to be ubiquitous now; and Clojure, too, seems to have adopted some overweight package manager (e.g. Leiningen).
17:38:55 Hell, even Emacs has ELPA now.
17:39:41 Maybe it's really just the children of CPAN with which Perl has peopled the earth.
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