What does it mean to be a Jew?

This is clearly a matter of who you ask, and what preforms their opinion.

I would say that ‘a Jew’ is someone who believes in the Torah as the literal word of God.

I’m in favour of not labelling people as Jewish for any other reason, as this only perpetuates numerous other myths.

Is/Was Bob Dylan Jewish? Christopher Hitchens? Larry David? Hitler?

It should only apply if they believe the religion. Judaism is not truly an ethnical group. Not all Haitians are Christians, or Voodoo practitioners, so why do we call all people from ‘Jewish’ families, ‘jewish’ ???

Yeah, I don’t know why so many people confuse religion with race when it comes to Judaism. People even refer to themselves as Jews (while not actually practicing Judaism) just because they were raised by Jewish parents. Lewis Black (comedian) is an example; he still identifies with Judaism as his “heritage”.

This is clearly a matter of who you ask, and what preforms their opinion.

I would say that ‘a Jew’ is someone who believes in the Torah as the literal word of God.

I’m in favour of not labelling people as Jewish for any other reason, as this only perpetuates numerous other myths.

Is/Was Bob Dylan Jewish? Christopher Hitchens? Larry David? Hitler?

It should only apply if they believe the religion. Judaism is not truly an ethnical group. Not all Haitians are Christians, or Voodoo practitioners, so why do we call all people from ‘Jewish’ families, ‘jewish’ ???

This is interesting. I was raised more or less “Reform” Jewish, went to Hebrew school for a couple of years, was Bar Mitzvahed. None of it resonated at all with me, made me happy, had any significance. Well, ok, gifts on Chanukah were fun, but the ritualistic acts on that holiday, on Passover, and all others seemed somewhat creepy and a bit boring.

I think there’s pressure to hold on to Jewish identity “lest we forget”, i.e. the Holocaust. This is an interesting identifier, and growing up in hte 70s and 80s, I recall that most of what “Jewish” was about for me was feeling special, part of a struggle, an oppressed group who was still struggling.

While the Holocaust should never be forgotten, I wonder about the ethics of holding on to an identifier for reasons such as the above.

“The hands that help are better far than the lips that pray.”
— Robert G. Ingersoll

I think non-practicing jews who call themselves jews, do so just so they can tell the jokes. (forgive my blatant rip-off of the Seinfeld episode in which his dentist “converts” for this reason.)

File this one under: old habits die hard. The human tendency to label themselves and the perceived other under one category or another has been a long standing, somewhat understandable “tradition.” The notion of the proud irishman, or the people who still hold on to “family crests” aka the “blue bloods” to revel in the fact that they come from past “royalty” comes to mind: what good does is do, except to make one look like a giant, pretentious and homogenous ass?

I suspicion that the reason many secular jews still call themselves jews is for the reasons aaron stated. It’s all a silly bit o’ business, imo.

An episode in Curb Your Enthusiasm highlighted the ridiculousness of it all when Larry David called the nurse, who had mixed “ethnicity” a mulatto. He couldn’t understand what was so bad about the term mulatto, to which she responded something akin to “the goal is for everyone to fuck everyone until everyone is so “racially” mixed that no one knows what the fuck they are.”

More important than “what it means to be a jew” in my mind, is what does it mean when one uses the moniker “thepredatorhandshake” as a self label?

“Proving the efficacy of a methodology without defining the word ‘efficacy’ can come back to bite you in the assertion.”—Salt Creek

Being a Jew? You are the chosen , the rest of us just sucks….big time sucks . Its an elite condition, you have being chosen by THE BIG DOG o sorry GOD to obey and make others obey his table of commands and those who do not obey may be eliminated….

“Life is the COEXISTENCE of opposites values”
Love is Forgiveness
Peace is Tolerance
“In the beginning Man created God according to his own image and understanding. Over the years as Men understanding of morality, violence and tolerance evolves, so evolves our understanding of a Loving God”.

The Predator Handshake is a phenomenon which occurs during the early part of the film “Predator” (dir: J. McTiernan) when Arnie and Carl Weathers (Dillon, and Apollo Creed in Rocky) turn a black-style handshake into a mid-air arm-wrestle, which Arnie comfortably wins and appends with the line “Whassah madda? C.I.A got you pushing too many penzels?”

This whole thing about identity and being special is a phenomena which I think is at the heart of religious hatred.

There’s nothing special about jews, muslims, atheists or zoroastrians.

There is something special about Larry David, Hitch and Freddy Mercury, which shows that its not religion which makes a person special.

Sorry not to include a muslim representative, but I dont have a spare week to think of a Submission-follower I even vaguely like.

The Predator Handshake is a phenomenon which occurs during the early part of the film “Predator” (dir: J. McTiernan) when Arnie and Carl Weathers (Dillon, and Apollo Creed in Rocky) turn a black-style handshake into a mid-air arm-wrestle, which Arnie comfortably wins and appends with the line “Whassah madda? C.I.A got you pushing too many penzels?”

Phwew, glad to hear it’s a pop culture reference to an Arnie flick as opposed to… say, a sick admiration of serial killers.

the pred: “This whole thing about identity and being special is a phenomena which I think is at the heart of religious hatred.

There’s nothing special about jews, muslims, atheists or zoroastrians.”

Good point The whole my group identity is superior or more special than your group identity because of my superior imagined deity has had us glorified monkeys biting our own tails for centuries.

the pred: “There is something special about Larry David, Hitch and Freddy Mercury, which shows that its not religion which makes a person special.

I’d like to add Trent Reznor, George Carlin, Craig Ferguson, Michael Stipe and splash of Paul Hewson. Maybe throw in a Sontag and a Didion while we’re at it.

Welcome to the forum thepredatorhandshake or may I call you thePh.S?

“Proving the efficacy of a methodology without defining the word ‘efficacy’ can come back to bite you in the assertion.”—Salt Creek

This is clearly a matter of who you ask, and what preforms their opinion.

I would say that ‘a Jew’ is someone who believes in the Torah as the literal word of God.

I’m in favour of not labelling people as Jewish for any other reason, as this only perpetuates numerous other myths.

Is/Was Bob Dylan Jewish? Christopher Hitchens? Larry David? Hitler?

It should only apply if they believe the religion. Judaism is not truly an ethnical group. Not all Haitians are Christians, or Voodoo practitioners, so why do we call all people from ‘Jewish’ families, ‘jewish’ ???

Well, “Jewish” can be used in two senses: religious and ethnic. Not all “Jews” are ethnically Jewish. Not all “Jews” are observant Jews. My partner is “Jewish”. He is the progeny of ethnic Jews. He was brought up in the Jewish religion as well, but he is now an agnostic (thank God!). “Jewish” refers to his ethnic and cultural identity, not to his religion.

With other religions it doesn’t work that way because there is no such thing as ethnic Christians or ethnic Muslims or ethnic Jains. So, purely genetically speaking, Sam Harris is half-Jewish. I don’t know whether it’s the top half or the bottom half, but he is half Jewish even though he does not practice Judaism (which is putting it mildly).

Beverly Sills (the famous opera diva, who passed away last summer) says that even though she was not religious, she was culturally very Jewish. Even Richard Dawkins concedes that he is a cultural Christian. So, I don’t think it is fair or accurate to limit the denotations of words like “Jewish” to their religious reference. I know it takes a little bit of effort to clarify what one means when one says “Jewish”, but I think it is the only way… Sorry…

I know on this forum we tend to focus on religion, but there are multitudes of people who simply could not care less about it. My partner is one of them. It is unfair for us to define people simply by their religion - especially in the case of “Jewish”, simply because “Jewish” does not denote “follower of Judaism”. After all, Jews existed as an ethnic group before teh monotheism called Judaism came on the scene. They were Jews before the arrival of “Judaism”. And it is called Judaism because it was the religion practiced by the people called “Jews”.

This is clearly a matter of who you ask, and what preforms their opinion.

I would say that ‘a Jew’ is someone who believes in the Torah as the literal word of God.

I’m in favour of not labelling people as Jewish for any other reason, as this only perpetuates numerous other myths.

Is/Was Bob Dylan Jewish? Christopher Hitchens? Larry David? Hitler?

It should only apply if they believe the religion. Judaism is not truly an ethnical group. Not all Haitians are Christians, or Voodoo practitioners, so why do we call all people from ‘Jewish’ families, ‘jewish’ ???

This is interesting. I was raised more or less “Reform” Jewish, went to Hebrew school for a couple of years, was Bar Mitzvahed. None of it resonated at all with me, made me happy, had any significance. Well, ok, gifts on Chanukah were fun, but the ritualistic acts on that holiday, on Passover, and all others seemed somewhat creepy and a bit boring.

I think there’s pressure to hold on to Jewish identity “lest we forget”, i.e. the Holocaust. This is an interesting identifier, and growing up in hte 70s and 80s, I recall that most of what “Jewish” was about for me was feeling special, part of a struggle, an oppressed group who was still struggling.

While the Holocaust should never be forgotten, I wonder about the ethics of holding on to an identifier for reasons such as the above.

I also wonder about it. Personally, I really do not feel that I have a national identity. I was born and raised in Bulgaria. My mother is Bulgarian and my father is Armenian, but because my name was Armenian I was treated as an outsider (somewhat). My girlfriend’s parents did not want her to date me because “he is not Bulgarian!” When we moved to Lebanon I was treated as an outsider because I did not grow up in that culture, I did not speak Armenian or Arabic. Then when we moved to the US, once again I was the foreigner. So, I grew up without a strong sense of national or ethnic identity. I am just me.

But I know that most people do grow up with a sense of national idenity, national pride. I think as the world becomes more and more globalized, as we become more and more citizens of the world, national identities are going to have to gradually dissipate. As Sam Harris says, we have to see each other as people and nothing else. We have to recognize our own humanity first and not judge each other by our labels.

I agree that the Holocaust should never be forgotten. And I am incredibly saddened by the fact that it was forgotten in places like Bosnia, where people were massacred and buried in mass graves. But it’s not that the Holocaust must never be forgotten because teh nazis did x, y and z to the Jews; it must never be forgotten so that human beings never do x, y and z to other human beings. Or animals, for that matter (but that’s another topic altogether). After all, Jews were not the only ones who suffered because of the Nazis. Gays and communists did too. If Hitler had not been stopped, the Slavonic peoples would have been next. So, I understand that the Holocaust is a part of the history of the Jewish people and that remembering these events is now a permanent part of the Jewish identity. But I think it is important to remember that the crimes the Nazis committed were not merely against teh Jews; they were against humanity - a trait we all share.

This whole thing about identity and being special is a phenomena which I think is at the heart of religious hatred.

Yes. It si all about in-group/out-group mentality. It is about us vs them. It is about Jews vs “gentiles”. Greeks vs the “barbarians”. It is about Muslims vs ifidels. It is tribalism. One tribe united against all others. Once upon a time that was a good way of surviving. We live in a different world now. We need to start seeing each other or merely human.

There’s nothing special about jews, muslims, atheists or zoroastrians.

Yep.

There is something special about Larry David, Hitch and Freddy Mercury, which shows that its not religion which makes a person special.

Exactly. Merit should be evaluated on an individual basis.

Sorry not to include a muslim representative, but I dont have a spare week to think of a Submission-follower I even vaguely like.

Well, “Jewish” can be used in two senses: religious and ethnic. Not all “Jews” are ethnically Jewish. Not all “Jews” are observant Jews. My partner is “Jewish”. He is the progeny of ethnic Jews. He was brought up in the Jewish religion as well, but he is now an agnostic (thank God!). “Jewish” refers to his ethnic and cultural identity, not to his religion.

IMO, the concept of Ethnic judaism is simply a several-thousand year old perpetuation of xenophobic tribal self-righteousness. The Israelite jews, once only 70 strong, have now spread all over the world. What relevance is the ethinicity of modern ‘jews’, if not to maintain this “I is different from you” myth that the Torah is ALL ABOUT. In the absence of belief in Yahweh, what is this illusory remaining thing which makes them Jewish. Blood? Race? Territory?

Much more talk of this sort and you end up with lies of Meinkampfian proportion.

With other religions it doesn’t work that way because there is no such thing as ethnic Christians or ethnic Muslims or ethnic Jains.

Why then attribute special treatment to the ‘jews’ ?

So, purely genetically speaking, Sam Harris is half-Jewish. I don’t know whether it’s the top half or the bottom half, but he is half Jewish even though he does not practice Judaism (which is putting it mildly).

So what you’re saying is SAM HARRIS IS NOT A JEW. Why not ask Sam if he considers himself Jewish in the slightest?

Beverly Sills (the famous opera diva, who passed away last summer) says that even though she was not religious, she was culturally very Jewish.

And what does ‘culturally very Jewish’ mean? If not that she feels obliged to maintain the ancient lie?

I encourage all ‘ethnic’ jews to abandon this lie, and tell the truth.

Even Richard Dawkins concedes that he is a cultural Christian.

That’s conjecture, IMO.

So, I don’t think it is fair or accurate to limit the denotations of words like “Jewish” to their religious reference. I know it takes a little bit of effort to clarify what one means when one says “Jewish”, but I think it is the only way… Sorry…

When the delay in clarification on this matter costs so many lives, is this not a strong reason to create a more solid definition?

I know on this forum we tend to focus on religion, but there are multitudes of people who simply could not care less about it. My partner is one of them.

Is your partner not concerned that other people are making claims about his ethnicity which contribute towards conflict? Why let ethnicity define us as people? Tradition and tribalism are two huge forces which slow down the progress of human enlightenment.

It is unfair for us to define people simply by their religion - especially in the case of “Jewish”, simply because “Jewish” does not denote “follower of Judaism”. After all, Jews existed as an ethnic group before teh monotheism called Judaism came on the scene. They were Jews before the arrival of “Judaism”. And it is called Judaism because it was the religion practiced by the people called “Jews”.

What has fairness got to do with it? I’m not advocating defining people SOLELY by their religion - I’m suggesting that we CEASE referencing people as ethnic jews. If I havae a child with my Bulgarian girlfriend (who, like me is an antitheist), does this make our child “culturally Christian” ?

Does it depend on what we choose for the child, and what the child chooses for itself when it becomes old enough.

If your partner is choosing to be ethnically jewish, why can’t I choose to be ethnically jewish? Why can’t I choose to be ethnically black with my blond hair and blue eyes?

Because we are a people obsessed with surfaces, and it’s high time we had a good hard look, ethically, not aesthetically, at ourselves.

IMO, the concept of Ethnic judaism is simply a several-thousand year old perpetuation of xenophobic tribal self-righteousness.

Well, to be fair, is that not the case with most nationalities? I am part Armenian (and no, I will not tell you which part!). Armenians are also very strongly nationalistic. And what is nationalism? Xenophobic tribal self-righteousness. Am I right?

The Israelite jews, once only 70 strong, have now spread all over the world. What relevance is the ethinicity of modern ‘jews’, if not to maintain this “I is different from you” myth that the Torah is ALL ABOUT.

Armenians are also spread all over the world. Are you going to accuse them of the same? I mean, to an extent I agree with you, beause I really do not believe that adherence to “nationality”, “ethnicity” and “culture” often lead to more division and conflict in our world. Like I said earlier, I have never had a strong sense of belonging to any ethnic or national group and have always thought of myself as just me. But a lot of people are not me and a lot of people are not like me. For some reason their ethnicity, their culture is a big part of their identity.

If you object to this, then what do you propose? That we all be the same? Serious question. If we were to do away with ethnic/cultural differences, then what is the alternative?

In the absence of belief in Yahweh, what is this illusory remaining thing which makes them Jewish. Blood? Race? Territory?

That’s a fair question. The same thing that makes Armenians Armenians. Genetics (“blood”), culture, common language, common “history”. In my case, I am only half Armenian, I did not grow up in the Armenian culture, I speak very little Armenian and I know very little of Armenian history. So, I really don’t think of myself as Armenian.

I mean, let’s be honest here. Nationality is the product of tribalism. It is a form of modern tribalism. These are remnants of our past, from our common human history of survival of the fittest, when the group that stayed together was more likely to survive an attack from another group. The impulse to stay united and true to the common national identity still persists. And that is the function religion had as well. Consider, once again, the Armenians. They became Christians not because the truth of the gospels convinced them. They were pressed between two superpowers - Persia and Byzantium. They were threatened with being swallowed up by these cultures. And to prevent that, they adopted a religion which no other country had yet adopted - Christianity. That became a part of their national identity. To this day the Armenian Apostolic Church is the Armenian National Church. It’s about national cohesion, united by common beliefs, common goals. It’s tribalism.

Much more talk of this sort and you end up with lies of Meinkampfian proportion.

Whoa…

With other religions it doesn’t work that way because there is no such thing as ethnic Christians or ethnic Muslims or ethnic Jains.

Why then attribute special treatment to the ‘jews’ ?

Because, as I said already, Judaism is the religion of the people we call Jews. “Jew” can refer to ethnicity as well as to religion. The Jews were around before Judaism. It is their “blood” that makes them Jewish in the sense of ethnicity.

So, purely genetically speaking, Sam Harris is half-Jewish. I don’t know whether it’s the top half or the bottom half, but he is half Jewish even though he does not practice Judaism (which is putting it mildly).

So what you’re saying is SAM HARRIS IS NOT A JEW. Why not ask Sam if he considers himself Jewish in the slightest?

I am saying that Sam Harris is not a Jew in the religious sense. I am saying that he is half Jewish in the genetic sense. You keep insisting that “Jew” should only refer to one’s religious beliefs, and I am saying that whether you think it should or should not, the fact is that there is such a thing as Jewish ethnicity. It’s just genetics.

Beverly Sills (the famous opera diva, who passed away last summer) says that even though she was not religious, she was culturally very Jewish.

And what does ‘culturally very Jewish’ mean? If not that she feels obliged to maintain the ancient lie?

I encourage all ‘ethnic’ jews to abandon this lie, and tell the truth.

You mean to say that it is conjecture on my part? No. It is a direct quote. You could probably find it on youtube yourself.

So, I don’t think it is fair or accurate to limit the denotations of words like “Jewish” to their religious reference. I know it takes a little bit of effort to clarify what one means when one says “Jewish”, but I think it is the only way… Sorry…

When the delay in clarification on this matter costs so many lives, is this not a strong reason to create a more solid definition?

I am not a fan of tribalism, nationalism, or adherence to religious groups. I am not a fan of in-group/oot-group thinking. So in that respect I am in agreement with you. But I think it is simply inaccurate for you to say that “Jewish” refers to religion only. It does not. Recall that the Jews, the ethnic group, the tribes of the Jews, existed before Judaism existed. Genetics is what makes those people “Jews.”

I know on this forum we tend to focus on religion, but there are multitudes of people who simply could not care less about it. My partner is one of them.

Is your partner not concerned that other people are making claims about his ethnicity which contribute towards conflict? Why let ethnicity define us as people? Tradition and tribalism are two huge forces which slow down the progress of human enlightenment.

My partner does not define himself by his ethnicity, even though genetically he is Jewish. Otherwise I agree with you. I think tribalism needs to go, and we need to see each other as merely human.

It is unfair for us to define people simply by their religion - especially in the case of “Jewish”, simply because “Jewish” does not denote “follower of Judaism”. After all, Jews existed as an ethnic group before teh monotheism called Judaism came on the scene. They were Jews before the arrival of “Judaism”. And it is called Judaism because it was the religion practiced by the people called “Jews”.

What has fairness got to do with it? I’m not advocating defining people SOLELY by their religion - I’m suggesting that we CEASE referencing people as ethnic jews. If I havae a child with my Bulgarian girlfriend (who, like me is an antitheist), does this make our child “culturally Christian” ?

You have a Bulgarian girlfriend? Did you know that I am part Bulgarian and was brought up in Bulgaria? Cool.

Whether you like it or not, ethnic Jews do exist. They are genetically Jewish. They are from the Jewish gene pool. That makes then ethnic Jews. In this case “Jewish” refers to their ethnicity; their genetic makeup. If you could make your magic wand and make this denotation disappear, then what would be the word to describe them ethnically?

OK, I have to meet my ethnically Jewish partner for dinner, so I can’t finish addressing the remainder of your post. Sorry.

what is nationalism? Xenophobic tribal self-righteousness. Am I right?

Of course.

Armenians are also spread all over the world. Are you going to accuse them of the same? I mean, to an extent I agree with you, beause I really do not believe that adherence to “nationality”, “ethnicity” and “culture” often lead to more division and conflict in our world. Like I said earlier, I have never had a strong sense of belonging to any ethnic or national group and have always thought of myself as just me. But a lot of people are not me and a lot of people are not like me. For some reason their ethnicity, their culture is a big part of their identity.

If you object to this, then what do you propose? That we all be the same? Serious question. If we were to do away with ethnic/cultural differences, then what is the alternative?

My posts are not phrased as accusations. I don’t accuse “the jews” of anything, because I object to their classification of themselves as such. If they believe in the Torah, fair enough. If they don’t, then it is inaccurate. Ethnicity is important to some people, but I fail to see why. It means nothing. In terms of genetics, any individual ‘jew’ will share genes with his parents, but there is nothing ‘jewish’ about these genes. I have a big nose and could not be more “aryan” if I tried! LOL

As for a proposal, how about dropping the idea of ethnicity altogether, and a championing of humanism? Gender differences are real and gender identity ineradicable, but race is a myth, and a dangerous one too.

You mean to say that it is conjecture on my part? No. It is a direct quote. You could probably find it on youtube yourself.

No, on his part. Why did he bother saying it? it means nothing, and only gives Bill O’Reilly ammo when he told Richard on FOX that humility was a Christian value. Humility is a by-product of animal instinct and fear, that’s all.

You have a Bulgarian girlfriend? Did you know that I am part Bulgarian and was brought up in Bulgaria? Cool.