On a serious note, you're proposing to modify one of the experiments the Developers planned to do with the Obsidian Ocean, namely increased PvP.

I submit that this experiment has failed.People are playing on this ocean in spite of PvP, not because of it. It is something that they are enduring - for now - in order to be able to play the game (with a reasonable number of active fellow players) at all.
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Starhawk of Mad Mutineers, AzureCatalina of Twilight's Sabre, Cobalt
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[Edit 2 times,
last edit by cmdrzoom at Oct 17, 2017 1:27:00 AM]

I'd submit that there's plenty of players enthused and engaged in PVP and claims of failure are vastly exaggerated

I think we all are trying to prove our point using anecdotal evidence, which is next to garbage. Could someone post a poll so that we can see the numbers? An in game one would be few magnitudes better, obviously, since not all players visit the forums. But just to see some hard numbers on the forums.
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Cheesemighty on Obsidian.I'm trying to compare the opinions of people on obsidian ocean, and see if the difference is statistically significant. It's anonymous and takes less than 5 minutes: https://goo.gl/forms/6icpkudNjlb1PmcF3

I can and I have. Because what I'm doing is starting to play it, realizing "This isn't just 'The PvP server' among all the servers. This is THE SERVER and since it is THE SERVER, it is important that anybody who has a vision for how this server can be made more successful and appealing and encourage the most kinds of people to stay should speak up and say so.

I own a community business. I run events multiple times a week. When you create an event for a certain thing, you naturally limit how many people will take part in it.

Most of my business is in Magic the Gathering.

And guess which segment spends the most money in the store? Without any contest at all, it's the casual people who have never entered a for-pay tournament in their life.

Grey Havens isn't for profit, at least not at last check. I'm not sure your model theory fully applies here.

This is a different game in some respects to the original Puzzle Pirates and you must understand that just because you're clearly jealous of the increased numbers of players on Obsidian, you cannot write off the other servers. You're playing on the first server of a new realm.

Most players are enjoying PVP just fine. They'd be here saying how much they are fine with it or enjoying it, but they are very busy actually playing the game. If you're a casual player looking for a more PVE only experience, go back to your respective oceans from whence you came.
----------------------------------------Cerulean & Meridian - IcemeisterEmerald& Obsidian - incognito!#TeamPurple

If you're a casual player looking for a more PVE only experience, go back to your respective oceans from whence you came.

I love this argument the same one is used with poker. If you don't like it quit I am happy.
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Filthyjake all oceans (Obsidian Primary)Filthyjake6145 (discord)?Retired? On a Break? I found a new love... Casual player or yet another who moved on.

And keep in mind that the money to to keep the servers on has to come from *somewhere*. "Not for profit" doesn't mean "doesn't need income".

I think we all are trying to prove our point using anecdotal evidence, which is next to garbage.

No, not all of us are. Some of us are discussing PvP and gameplay issues well known to anyone who has paid attention to MMO's and MMO design over the last twenty odd years. No offense, but if you're not in that category, it's a mistake to assume that everyone else in the same boat.

Exactly my thought man. This is the server for that... If nobody wants to play in this server and they don't wanna go to the old servers then I guess they should open a new server with no factions and sinking PvP. Kinda tiring to see people telling the people who run the place what to do. If they said the concept is PvP and higher risk, then let it be so. What's up with all these people worried about being "victimized"? Can't take losing a battle? Don't even think you're good enough to win one? Worried about losing your ship? The enemy can lose their ship too. Launch an attack on them. Seek them out, talk it over. It's a different playstyle, people. Don't bring back the old, keep it new and don't ruin it. Damn. Gotta be thankful PP still being worked on even with OOO out of the picture. But it's never enough is it.
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Playing since 2007 on Dub oceans. All pirates purged.

I think we all are trying to prove our point using anecdotal evidence, which is next to garbage.

No, not all of us are. Some of us are discussing PvP and gameplay issues well known to anyone who has paid attention to MMO's and MMO design over the last twenty odd years. No offense, but if you're not in that category, it's a mistake to assume that everyone else in the same boat.

I don't think you (or anyone) can magically know what the entire YPP community is thinking without obtaining a reasonable sample and obtaining data from them, even with years of experience. Hell, make it forty years of experience, if you so desire, in the hierarchy of evidence, it's still garbage. So unless you have few peer reviewed articles on this subject ready at hand, don't patronize me.

Everyone is basically talking out of their booties here(including me), in scientific terms. We need hard data, something to base our claims on. Even a poll would be just above garbage by the way, but it's still better.

For instance,

I submit that this experiment has failed. People are playing on this ocean in spite of PvP, not because of it. It is something that they are enduring - for now - in order to be able to play the game (with a reasonable number of active fellow players) at all.

I'd submit that there's plenty of players enthused and engaged in PVP and claims of failure are vastly exaggerated

Both are based on pure personal experience, and without GH setting some parameters to test this out, conduct a series of server experiments, we cannot know which one is more attractive for people.

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Cheesemighty on Obsidian.I'm trying to compare the opinions of people on obsidian ocean, and see if the difference is statistically significant. It's anonymous and takes less than 5 minutes: https://goo.gl/forms/6icpkudNjlb1PmcF3

You'd need to suggest what parameters should be used to assess this, but I'm going by the size of the flags and crews that particularly go along with a pro-pvp stance vs the size and activity in those ones which don't. What's more - it's only some people who are being attacked at random. Most are set rivalries which were perhaps triggered by one person attacking another first, but then it just continues along with back-forth attacks until one side surrenders or gives up. I don't think there's many unprovoked attacks, and the ones that do occur are answered with adequate force.
----------------------------------------Cerulean & Meridian - IcemeisterEmerald& Obsidian - incognito!#TeamPurple

You'd need to suggest what parameters should be used to assess this, but I'm going by the size of the flags and crews that particularly go along with a pro-pvp stance vs the size and activity in those ones which don't. What's more - it's only some people who are being attacked at random. Most are set rivalries which were perhaps triggered by one person attacking another first, but then it just continues along with back-forth attacks until one side surrenders or gives up. I don't think there's many unprovoked attacks, and the ones that do occur are answered with adequate force.

That's an awful lot of assertion without evidence.

* Is there a way to see the list of Crews on Obsidian? Or Active Crews (had Crew ships out on the water within the past week)?

* Is there a reliable way to identify a Crew as "pro-PvP" or "anti-PvP" (as all Crews are "PvP-enabled" by default on Obsidian)?

I don't know how "Clearly the large active flags are the ones who are enjoying the PvP elements of the server" is an objection to the point that the people who don't like the PvP aren't playing as much, are leaving, and aren't joining when they see how PvP influenced the game is.

Yes...you're running one format of event, so eventually the only people left playing will be the ones who play that format. That is literally my point.

Yes, the size of the flags and crews that are pro-pvp is bigger. This is a pro-pvp game now. A bunch of us in the thread have said "Yeah...the fact that this is the way things are is making me less likely to get invested, less likely to stick around, and less likely to get new people into it"

I'm just curious which would be preferable to you:

This game also going stagnant in growth, peaking at 300-600 online and then slowly declining from natural attrition, but without ever compromising the "This is the PvP world" vision.

Attempting to find ways to allow other playstyles to flourish without negatively impacting the experience of the pro-pvp players, resulting in the population growing to some larger number before it levels of and starts declining from natural attrition.

(because lets be honest, this game's population is going to peak, and then start declining due to natural attrition no matter what we do)

But which do you think is better? 400 dedicated PvPers or 400 Dedicated PvPers and 200 non PvPers?

But which do you think is better? 400 dedicated PvPers or 400 Dedicated PvPers and 200 non PvPers?

Honestly? 400 PvPers only. The moment you allow people to have an opt-out of PvP, is the moment you start to infringe upon the enjoyment of the 400 and they are here because of PvP at least in part.
----------------------------------------Cerulean & Meridian - IcemeisterEmerald& Obsidian - incognito!#TeamPurple

But how does it infringe on them? We've literally described a scenario where their pool of players to PVP with is exactly the same, only now their pool of people to do everything else with is larger. Why is that bad?

If you provide a choice, people will migrate. It doesn't mean that it was needed to have the choice, it just means people will happily pay anything for an easier life in games. It infringes on the 400 when any other players within or outside the 400 are able to effectively skirt around the rules everyone else has to play by as per the core ocean rules and ways.
----------------------------------------Cerulean & Meridian - IcemeisterEmerald& Obsidian - incognito!#TeamPurple

I think we all are trying to prove our point using anecdotal evidence, which is next to garbage.

No, not all of us are. Some of us are discussing PvP and gameplay issues well known to anyone who has paid attention to MMO's and MMO design over the last twenty odd years. No offense, but if you're not in that category, it's a mistake to assume that everyone else in the same boat.

I don't think you (or anyone) can magically know what the entire YPP community is thinking

Since I never claimed to know what the entire YPP community is thinking... I fail to see your point.

Everyone is basically talking out of their booties here(including me), in scientific terms.

In scientific terms, yes. But scientific terms, as impressive as they are to those who carelessly toss them around, aren't relevant here.

What is relevant is the abundant evidence from multiple MMO's spanning two decades. Given the choice between high risk non consensual PVP and either lower risk PVP or no PVP - players will choose the latter every single time.

As I said before, if you're not aware of the reality of MMO design and gaming trends of the last twenty years - that doesn't mean that everyone else is. That's not patronizing, that's cruel cold fact.

And having high-risk competitive PvP as an option is a great thing to have. WoW was made much better by having Arenas in addition to Battlegrounds in addition to the PvE experience. More things to appeal to more people is good.

But people keep turning to "This is just the PvP server, go play on another one" as the response, when, as usual, Obsidian is currently 71% of all online players, and I'd be shocked if the other 29% weren't overlapped by some people with both clients open right now.

If you provide a choice, people will migrate. It doesn't mean that it was needed to have the choice, it just means people will happily pay anything for an easier life in games. It infringes on the 400 when any other players within or outside the 400 are able to effectively skirt around the rules everyone else has to play by as per the core ocean rules and ways.

And you don't think that "if people can choose not to engage in PvP, they will, and even pay extra for that privilege" is sufficient evidence of the desire for a different playstyle? You're admitting that the one you prefer can only survive with a (almost literally) captive audience.
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Starhawk of Mad Mutineers, AzureCatalina of Twilight's Sabre, Cobalt
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[Edit 1 times,
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I do not deny that a desire for another play style may exist. I'm saying it's a minority desire, contrary to the way Dark Seas operates and should not be accommodated for, especially in a blunt opt-out pay-to-avoid manner.
----------------------------------------Cerulean & Meridian - IcemeisterEmerald& Obsidian - incognito!#TeamPurple

I do not deny that a desire for another play style may exist. I'm saying it's a minority desire, contrary to the way Dark Seas operates and should not be accommodated for, especially in a blunt opt-out pay-to-avoid manner.

Emphasis added.

You'd need to provide evidence of this.

There's a lot of reasons for people to want to be playing on Obsidian, most of which are completely orthogonal to any desire for (or against) PvP.

A new ocean, which doesn't have over a decade of cruft and politics attached

A notably larger player base than any of the other oceans, only one of which is still limping along with what could be called an active player base

A new appeal to Steam-centric players, complete with full Steam integration, including some combo deals and the permanent Officer and Labor badges, which are not available in other oceans

I'm sure that there are other reasons that don't immediately spring to mind. But the idea that the majority of people rallying to Obsidian are doing it because "YARR, PVP!" is unfounded, and would be a notable and significant deviation from what the gaming populace has said and demonstrated in every other online multiplayer game out there.
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[Edit 1 times,
last edit by Nek0jin at Oct 18, 2017 9:39:45 AM]

I hope I didn't miss any of the opinions expressed here, but I think I have it all. Here's a multiple option poll, be so kind to fill it so we get an idea. A well constructed, well thought out google forms with proper demographics and data be few magnitudes better, but it's usually very very hard to convince people to fill out forms.

http://www.strawpoll.me/14177490
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Cheesemighty on Obsidian.I'm trying to compare the opinions of people on obsidian ocean, and see if the difference is statistically significant. It's anonymous and takes less than 5 minutes: https://goo.gl/forms/6icpkudNjlb1PmcF3
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[Edit 2 times,
last edit by bahaakbu at Oct 18, 2017 11:10:23 AM]

The polling is nice, but the percentages are wrong. They're being represented as a percentage of the things voted on (the votes given, with each person being able to give more than one vote), not a percentage of the people who placed votes.

The polling is nice, but the percentages are wrong. They're being represented as a percentage of the things voted on (the votes given, with each person being able to give more than one vote), not a percentage of the people who placed votes.

Oh biscuits. Should've used google forms after all. Here I thought it provided number of voters too. Without it, this is again worth close to nothing.

I'll try to think a way to salvage it.

Edit: Hmm. The idea was to get an idea anyway, so thinking again, not all is lost. GH can run a proper questionnaire if they want real data. Or if any other academics are present here with some spare time, that works as well.
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Cheesemighty on Obsidian.I'm trying to compare the opinions of people on obsidian ocean, and see if the difference is statistically significant. It's anonymous and takes less than 5 minutes: https://goo.gl/forms/6icpkudNjlb1PmcF3
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[Edit 1 times,
last edit by bahaakbu at Oct 18, 2017 11:23:20 AM]

No, it's not useless. The top vote ("A fresh start") gives us a minimum number of voters - there's at least 27 people who participated (which honestly surprises me. That means we've got a lot of lurkers interested in the discussion, or someone posted a link to it in-game).

From that, we can create percentages on the others. 9 people voted on "Increased PvP" and "more sinking battles." So each of those represent 33% (or less, if there were more voters) of the participants - roughly a third of the vote participants are actually interested in the PvP for PvP's sake.

This is too small of a vote to really be representative on the whole ocean, but it's more than enough to give some guidance on the matter.

That might or might not have been me.
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Cheesemighty on Obsidian.I'm trying to compare the opinions of people on obsidian ocean, and see if the difference is statistically significant. It's anonymous and takes less than 5 minutes: https://goo.gl/forms/6icpkudNjlb1PmcF3

If we view this as representative of the Ocean, then Obsidian has a somewhat higher-than-typical PvP contingent... but it's still a significant minority, being less than 1/3 of all of the voters.

Edit: Now it's 40/19/17. 5 more votes on Fresh Start, but 8 more votes on PvP and 7 more on Sinking battles. So we know that there's at least 43 voters (and a an uncharacteristic wave of PvP'ers).

If I were a suspicious person, I would suspect that someone's trying to game the results by getting people to upvote the PvP options and NOT vote on "Fresh Start." But we're all respectable pirates here, and nobody would do that, right? Surely they'd realize that such discrepancies are obvious and detectable. ;)

Edit 10 minutes later: Now 40/21/19. Two more voters who voted for PvP options while not voting for the "fresh start" option. It's now gone beyond "suspicious" to "obviously meta-gaming."

But even with that said, that means +5 total voters (minimum) which brings the total minimum voter count to 45. The PvP'ers are still less than half the total.
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[Edit 3 times,
last edit by Nek0jin at Oct 18, 2017 1:51:24 PM]

I hope I didn't miss any of the opinions expressed here, but I think I have it all. Here's a multiple option poll, be so kind to fill it so we get an idea. A well constructed, well thought out google forms with proper demographics and data be few magnitudes better, but it's usually very very hard to convince people to fill out forms.

The poll fails to measure an important aspect: why you chose *not* to be on obsidian. Sure, some people might choose to play on Obsidian *because* of the PvP, but others might choose not to play there at all because of it. Or the limited number of islands, or the routes are too short, or because of STEAM, or the name beings with "O".
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Algol can not assert the truth of all statements in this post and still be consistent.

I hope I didn't miss any of the opinions expressed here, but I think I have it all. Here's a multiple option poll, be so kind to fill it so we get an idea. A well constructed, well thought out google forms with proper demographics and data be few magnitudes better, but it's usually very very hard to convince people to fill out forms.

The poll fails to measure an important aspect: why you chose *not* to be on obsidian. Sure, some people might choose to play on Obsidian *because* of the PvP, but others might choose not to play there at all because of it. Or the limited number of islands, or the routes are too short, or because of STEAM, or the name beings with "O".

Well, I (or someone else) could set up a proper questionnaire, individually asking these questions. Like, what do you thinking of the new sinking waters, non sinking waters division. How about the faction system, and badges and so on. With branching paths like, do you play on obsidian, why or why not? But that would require at least an hours worth of thinking and designing. If anyone is up for that, shoot. Or I might... Eventually. Google forms gives good data, if anyone is interested in creating a form with properly set up questions, I'm willing to run the statistics.

Edit: You know what, let me create one real quick.
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Cheesemighty on Obsidian.I'm trying to compare the opinions of people on obsidian ocean, and see if the difference is statistically significant. It's anonymous and takes less than 5 minutes: https://goo.gl/forms/6icpkudNjlb1PmcF3
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[Edit 1 times,
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