I am new to the Baha'i faith, i am not registered as a bahai but i have been taught it's teachings for the last 2 years in my local bahai youth. I am at the age of maturity and i need definite explanation on the Bahai view on homosexuality because it applies to me. So far i generally have it that homosexual feelings are allowed but sexual acts are not allowed and nor is marriage. This troubles me as from what i see if i am to become a bahai, witch i expect to. I would just like to know the general reaction to it, and if what i say is correct why isn't it allowed? I'm sure you think i should talk to my group leader, but to be honest i'm not ready to come out to anybody yet, so i want to get my facts straight.

I can't give you an explanation of why exactly it is not allowed. But I'd like to say that you should not allow anyone to keep you from investigating the realities in the universe.

Being a Baha'i is not only about following a prescribed set of rules or simply conforming only to a particular outward way of life. From my experience it is also about learning about the eternal principals that govern this reality, and falling in love with them and their source. You should never let anything or anyone come between you and your pursuit of those principals, because, I believe, they are as or more important than life itself.

Every Baha'i struggles to be a Baha'i and to understand the system that Baha'u'llah has given them and to try to apply it in their everyday lives--Baha'is believe that this system is essential in the unraveling of those principals and applying them in the world so that humanity as a whole can survive and continue to grow on this planet.

I believe that if you sincerely search for the answers you need, and do your own thinking, that you will not be dissatisfied. One would expect other such sincere people to be infinitely understanding and loving, but, as they say, nobody is perfect.

is perfectly natural if thats how the individual feels, If he/she is attracted to the same sex then it is unavoidable, and perfectly natural. We are created by the Divine and so if a person is born and is attracted to the same sex then that is fine. I have friends who are homosexual, and they have confided in me, so I have learnt quite a lot from some great people!

A Baha'i with say proclivities toward homosexuality has the same rights as anyone in the Faith.. They are individuals. They can marry (marriage in the Baha'i Faith) if they wish.. They can be celibate if they wish.. They can confidentially consult with their Local Spiritual Assembly or other Baha'i institution and decide what they want to do.. but it is their decision and no one else can decide that for them.

Baha'i laws were for the most part revealed in a book called The Kitab-i-Aqdas and spell out pretty clearly that sexual acts outside marriage are forbidden and also that homosexual acts are forbidden. We Baha'is know this and what we decide to do about it is a personal decision.

Here it is in a nutshell:

The Baha'i teachings on sexual morality centre on marriage and the family as the bedrock of the whole structure of human society and are designed to protect and strengthen that divine institution. Baha'i law thus restricts permissible sexual intercourse to that between a man and the woman to whom he is married.

I have a lot of sympathy for your situation. I became a Baha'i around two years ago, and in that time I have developed enough emotionally that I have come to terms with the fact that I am in fact a bisexual. I am probably about equally attracted to both sexes but in different ways. On the whole I am more physically attracted to men but more emotionally attracted to women. God gave that to me, maybe as a test, maybe it has to do with the free will of the evolutionary process, maybe God has His own wacky and mysterious reasons.

My understanding is that homosexual attractions are in no way condemned or innately sinful. Neither is our outlook on homosexual relationships a condemning outlook. Shoghi Effendi at one point says: "No matter how devoted and fine the love may be between people of the same sex, to let it find expression in sexual acts is wrong." So the fact that pure, devoted love can exist between two people of the same sex is acknowledged, and we know that God loves love. So I have a feeling that even in relationships where love is expressed in ways He find displeasing, God finds love innately pleasing.

For me it has been a relatively simple decision so far to limit pursuing romantic relationships to chaste and heterosexual ones. Perhaps it will get harder someday if I meet a man I would actually be interested in pursuing a relationship with, and I understand it is certainly much harder for a homosexual than for a bisexual. At any rate, I am not even interested in pursuing romantic relationships with anyone at this point in my life, so I am fine

One thing that may help you is to study the nature of the sex instinct and to look into relational theology (something I think the Baha'i writings teaches to some degree). Two totally unrelated things, but understanding both had helped me considerably. In the end it comes down to belief in Baha'u'llah. If you believe He is who He claims to be it is worth it to struggle to please Him and to fall on His forgiving guidance and love when you fail to please Him. Studying Baha'u'llah's life and different points where he manifested Justice and Mercy and the difference and relationship between the two may help. (Studying His loss of His beloved Navvab is currently helping me in this way)

I think for most of these cases a person that is say troubled by their identity or seeking guidance needs to seek that guidance and support from their Local Spiritual Assembly as they can better consult with them and work with them over a period of time.

"...But it is clear from the teaching of Bahá'u'lláh that homosexuality is not a condition to which a person should be reconciled, but is a distortion of his or her nature which should be controlled and overcome. This may require a hard struggle, but so also can be the struggle of a heterosexual person to control his or her desires. The exercise of self-control in this, as in so very many other aspects of life, has a beneficial effect on the progress of the soul. It should, moreover, be borne in mind that although to be, married is highly desirable, and Bahá'u'lláh has strongly recommended it, it is not the central purpose of life. If a person has to wait a considerable period before finding a spouse, or if ultimately, he or she must remain single, it does not mean that he or she is thereby unable to fulfil his or her life's purpose."

(From a letter of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer, January 12, 1973; cited in Messages from The Universal House of Justice, 1968-1973, pp. 110-111)

I am Muslim but this what I say to people who ask me about homosexuality and Islam. It is strictly haram (forbidden) in Islam and one doesn't need to go through intellectual acrobatics to get around it, it's haram and it's haram for a reason and Allah (saw) knows best, who am I to question this? You can't expect something divine like Islam to conform to the wants and desires of man. You can't make Islam conform to you so that everything you do is halal. If homosexuals want to get married and all this, they can do so in the secular world not in a masjid (mosque) nor should there marriage be considered valid in the eyes of the ummah (Muslim community), you shouldn't expect religions to allow this and say it's ok. I also assume that this same type of thinking could be applied to the Baha'i faith. Another example I use is, is the drinking of booze. You're certainly free to do it, so long as you don't harm anyone but you can't expect the Islamic community to accept it. I hope this makes sense.

I am Muslim but this what I say to people who ask me about homosexuality and Islam. It is strictly haram (forbidden) in Islam and one doesn't need to go through intellectual acrobatics to get around it, it's haram and it's haram for a reason and Allah (saw) knows best, who am I to question this?

Not everyone shares your viewpoint that everything in the Qur'aan or the Bible are 100% accurate.

Quote:

You can't expect something divine like Islam to conform to the wants and desires of man. You can't make Islam conform to you so that everything you do is halal.

That's a Strawman Argument: nobody is "trying to make Islam conform". This is a Baha'i forum; not an Islamic one.

This one was a problem for me because I strongly believe in the rights of homosexuals to live a life without being harassed or denied their rights because of their sexual preference, which I believe is mostly innate. However the Baha'i faith does not permit sex outside of marriage and does not permit homosexual marriage among Baha'is. I, for one, support the rights of homosexuals to marry outside the faith, but as a Baha'i I also acknowlege the right of the Baha'i faith to make rules concerning these issues for members. It's a difficult question.

It is true that homosexual actions are forbidden in the Baha'i Faith officially. From the Kitab'i'Aqdas:

Quote:

It is forbidden you to wed your fathers' wives. We shrink, for very shame, from treating of the subject of boys. Fear ye the Merciful, O peoples of the world! Commit not that which is forbidden you in Our Holy Tablet, and be not of those who rove distractedly in the wilderness of their desires.

This is interpreted by Shoghi Effendi, in the noted section of the Aqdas:

Quote:

134. the subject of boys # 107
The word translated here as "boys" has, in this context, in the Arabic original, the implication of paederasty. Shoghi Effendi has interpreted this reference as a prohibition on all homosexual relations.

The Bahá'í teachings on sexual morality centre on marriage and the family as the bedrock of the whole structure of human society and are designed to protect and strengthen that divine institution. Bahá'í law thus restricts permissible sexual intercourse to that between a man and the woman to whom he is married.

In a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi it is stated:

No matter how devoted and fine the love may be between people of the same sex, to let it find expression in sexual acts is wrong. To say that it is ideal is no excuse. Immorality of every sort is really forbidden by Bahá'u'lláh, and homosexual relationships He looks upon as such, besides being against nature. To be afflicted this way is a great burden to a conscientious soul. But through the advice and help of doctors, through a strong and determined effort, and through prayer, a soul can overcome this handicap.

Bahá'u'lláh makes provision for the Universal House of Justice to determine, according to the degree of the offence, penalties for adultery and sodomy (Q and A 49).

So, officially, it is forbidden. But in practice, the view of homosexuality varies from person to person. We as Baha'is are instructed to love all, but sometimes this doesn't always happen. I personally have no problem with homosexuals and support their rights to marry fully. A homosexual investigating the Baha'i Faith for the first time needs to take this into account. He or she will undoubtedly face some sort of problem from someone. There are good stories and there are bad stories. But, that is the case with any religion.

As for homosexual Baha'is who were born into the Faith, I feel for them the most. I hope only good stories come from them, but as we are human beings, this is not always the case.

In any case, I encourage you to keep investigating. Even if you decided to not continue on with the Baha'i Path, you would have fulfilled the obligation to investigate and your spiritual journey will surely take you to your own greener pasture.

So far i generally have it that homosexual feelings are allowed but sexual acts are not allowed and nor is marriage. .

Daniel, as I see it, the Baha'is Faith values families and defines them as non gay ones with no provisions for gay marriages.

A spiritual law requires Baha'is not to have sexuality, whether gay or non gay, outside marriage and obeying this law has a value for our spiritual development which is the fundamental purpose of religion, just as fasting, praying, truthfulness, loving attitudes, etc.

Hence sexuality outside wedlock, gay or non gay, is condemned on spiritual basis, just as untruthfulness, not praying, injustice, back-biting, etc. I see no point in adhering to a religion if we do not seek spiritual growth, but, what goes on in our private spiritual life is between us and God and no one has a right to intervene.

In addition to our spiritual growth, religion also entails social and community life and any speech, behaviour, habit or way of life that disrupts community life can give rise to community sanctions applied by institutions who are responsible for the protection of the community and not by any individual who has to have a "sin covering eye".

Finally, we live in countries with civil laws which might also apply if our behaviour does not comply with social standards.

Daniel, as I see it, the Baha'is Faith values families and defines them as non gay ones with no provisions for gay marriages.

A spiritual law requires Baha'is not to have sexuality, whether gay or non gay, outside marriage and obeying this law has a value for our spiritual development which is the fundamental purpose of religion, just as fasting, praying, truthfulness, loving attitudes, etc.

Hence sexuality outside wedlock, gay or non gay, is condemned on spiritual basis, just as untruthfulness, not praying, injustice, back-biting, etc. I see no point in adhering to a religion if we do not seek spiritual growth, but, what goes on in our private spiritual life is between us and God and no one has a right to intervene.

In addition to our spiritual growth, religion also entails social and community life and any speech, behaviour, habit or way of life that disrupts community life can give rise to community sanctions applied by institutions who are responsible for the protection of the community and not by any individual who has to have a "sin covering eye".

Finally, we live in countries with civil laws which might also apply if our behaviour does not comply with social standards.

I have always taken the Baha'i law on sexuality to mean to not act upon our sexuality until marriage rather than to not have sexuality. Humans possess sexuality from the time of puberty. Expressing this sexuality in a healthy way is what is important.

As far as what kind of sexuality (whether it be homosexual or heterosexual), this should not receive so much stress. This label only seeks to divide us further, as if there was a dichotomy between homosexuals and heterosexuals. It is very true that our own personal conduct is between us and God. So, our own views on God play into how we act. How we as individuals see the Baha'i Scripture is important for Baha'is.

What is detrimental to the community is determined by the community, or the leaders of the community. The person taking part in the action is not creating an issue per se, the community is by defining the action as immoral. There are certainly disagreements about what the Aqdas says about homosexuality. I recognize that the "official" view is that it is immoral, but I do not agree with it, so I do not play into that. Regardless of what the Aqdas says, the fatal flaw is making a deal out of something that is not threatening at all. The existence of Gay Baha'is does not harm the Baha'i community. If the interpretation of the Aqdas is correct, then that person will face whatever it is he/she will face. That person does not need discrimination or judgement from the community here on Earth. We should love all.

A common argument is to compare homosexuality to drinking alcohol, using drugs, backbiting, murder, pedophilia, etc. To make certain, I am not accusing you of doing this. This is my own personal observation over time. The fact of the matter is, most things on the list of things I have just said have solid evidence against them. Murder is clearly immoral for obvious reasons. Pedophilia is clearly immoral for obvious reasons. Backbiting, the use of drugs, and the use of alcohol are all detrimental to the individual. However, homosexuality has not been proven to be physically harmful to the person. Spiritually harmful is another thing, but we are human beings so we have no way of knowing for sure. So, why discriminate?

All we can do as Baha'is is offer a loving hand of guidance. We should no discriminate by any measure for this just divides us further.

Again, I am not accusing you of doing any of the things mentioned above. Your post just inspired me to comment.

I have been gay as long as I can remember and I became a Baha'i because this is a Faith that "works" for me...Ever since I openly "came out", I haven't attended feasts, or holy days....but I say the Prayers, read the Writings, and observe the Fast on my own. I find it hard sometimes to openly communicate with other members of the Faith; however, that is a fear I am working through. I personally feel that when I go back to Feasts again: I can choose to keep my personal life (ie. sexuality) separate and just be of service by helping others. I know what I have to offer....sexuality (as a subject) is not necessarily the top of my list of priorities I know who I am...and I know why I believe what I believe based on self survey.

Quote:

"...But it is clear from the teaching of Bahá'u'lláh that homosexuality is not a condition to which a person should be reconciled, but is a distortion of his or her nature which should be controlled and overcome. This may require a hard struggle, but so also can be the struggle of a heterosexual person to control his or her desires. The exercise of self-control in this, as in so very many other aspects of life, has a beneficial effect on the progress of the soul. It should, moreover, be borne in mind that although to be, married is highly desirable, and Bahá'u'lláh has strongly recommended it, it is not the central purpose of life. If a person has to wait a considerable period before finding a spouse, or if ultimately, he or she must remain single, it does not mean that he or she is thereby unable to fulfil his or her life's purpose."

(From a letter of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer, January 12, 1973; cited in Messages from The Universal House of Justice, 1968-1973, pp. 110-111)

From my personal experience, I take what I want and I leave the rest....I believe more will be revealed. Acceptance and Tolerance of others is what this Faith teaches me on a daily basic, no matter what.

This one was a problem for me because I strongly believe in the rights of homosexuals to live a life without being harassed or denied their rights because of their sexual preference, which I believe is mostly innate. However the Baha'i faith does not permit sex outside of marriage and does not permit homosexual marriage among Baha'is. I, for one, support the rights of homosexuals to marry outside the faith, but as a Baha'i I also acknowlege the right of the Baha'i faith to make rules concerning these issues for members. It's a difficult question.

To be honest, this is a stumbling block for me with Baha'i faith. I too believe strongly in gay rights and that everybody is equal in God's eyes and heart. I believe God loves everybody and that God cares for everyone, made everyone the way they are, and so on.

However, I also encounter the idea that homosexuality is not good in my own Christian faith, and it is something that I am dealing with there too. I am not gay in any way, but I still have many close friends and family members that are gay, and I love them all dearly and would never judge them on their way of life and their way to express romantic love.

However, I appreciate the fact that Baha'i faith gives homosexuals the chance to have their rights, but also gives them a chance to stay chaste within a relationship.

So, in my understanding of what Baha'i teachings are, from what you all have said here: A gay person is allowed to be in a relationship as long as one does not have any sexual interaction with the other partner?

Anyway, there seem to be many different views here from each person, as is the case in the Christian community too.

I am a hippie (free spirit, believe in peace/love/understanding and equality of humanity. Do NOT believe in promiscuity, taking drugs, drinking etc). I strongly believe in God's love for everybody and in being tolerant and understanding toward others, even if we disagree with their life styles or their actions or how they think. I believe that respect and tolerance are key words in living within this world and we all try to do our best, to the best of our ability non-judgemental attitude is the best thing

I hope this makes sense, and sorry for having posted a new thread on homosexuality when in fact there already was one.

I have yet to learn more about Baha'i and I am not judging anybody here. I think it's great that you all tell me what you think and you stand for your views, that is really awesome. I may agree or disagree, but I am glad that you state what you think and how you think about stuff.

I look forward to reading the scriptures and coming back to you on it when I am finished. That'll take a while because these aren't the sort of books one can read in a jiffy!

joanna, who is denying homosexuals their rights? Are you arguing that homosexuals have the right to be married? Why would you think this from a Christian perspective when homosexual marriage does not exist and such relationshops are frowned upon in the bible.

joanna, who is denying homosexuals their rights? Are you arguing that homosexuals have the right to be married? Why would you think this from a Christian perspective when homosexual marriage does not exist and such relationshops are frowned upon in the bible.

I am not saying anybody is denying them rights, I am just saying that I believe in gay rights, including the right to be married to their partner of choice.

I know the idea of homosexuals and homosexual marriage is frowned upon in the bible too.

The reason why I am for gay rights is that I believe in a loving and kind God, and that I also believe Jesus died for everybody, including gays and others from the rainbow community.

It's just something that I have always believed in, and that has never really clashed with my personal interpretation of and feeling for my Christian faith.

To me, God transcends what we can understand, and this includes Jesus also and the other prophets. It's hard to explain, and I don't expect that people will instantly understand me, or agree with me :P but I just always believed in gay rights, and those things have been a stumbling block for me in my Christian faith too, as well as in other world religions :P but I understand where it is coming from and I understand that view which is held within all the world religions...I am just not sure that I can hold it myself.

But, I am not judging who holds this view of gays. I see where such an ideal is coming from and it is up to each person to think as they want.

Now here was where you confuse me. You agree that homosexuality is frowned upon in the bible, Paul specifically makes reference to it being a terrible act. So this obviously precludes marriage, yet you seem to think that because God is loving and that Christ died for everyone (which is true) that this justifies homosexuality. I can't help but feel by supporting such a position you are saying that practicing sin is okay.

Now God may transcend what we can comprehend, but God does know us, and he knows how to communicate with us through the church and he has done so in the past. Or else we believe in a God that is so different from us that we can never come close to him. We should follow St Athanasius and proclaim "God became man, so that man may become god."

Now Are gays to be excluded from Christianity? No. BUt is homosexuality to be celebrated? No it is not.

The only reason that gay marriage exists as an option in society is because of the separation of church and state. It is neither reasonable or appropriate that it be incorporated into religious law because while it may work perfectly well in a particular neighborhood, city, or state, it always causes of disunity and separation from the 'body' of the religion. I really think 'civil union' should be adequate to meet the needs of the gay community.

Now here was where you confuse me. You agree that homosexuality is frowned upon in the bible, Paul specifically makes reference to it being a terrible act. So this obviously precludes marriage, yet you seem to think that because God is loving and that Christ died for everyone (which is true) that this justifies homosexuality. I can't help but feel by supporting such a position you are saying that practicing sin is okay.

Now God may transcend what we can comprehend, but God does know us, and he knows how to communicate with us through the church and he has done so in the past. Or else we believe in a God that is so different from us that we can never come close to him. We should follow St Athanasius and proclaim "God became man, so that man may become god."

Now Are gays to be excluded from Christianity? No. BUt is homosexuality to be celebrated? No it is not.

I guess the main difference is how we interpret the word sin and what each of us considers to be sinful. I do not see homosexuality as a sin, so for me, being gay does not mean that you are committing a sin, or engaging in a homosexual relationship (that is committed, where you intend to be faithful always and forever).

I dig where you're coming from, as I have heard this from countless fellow Christians However, I guess the main difference is my view on sin is a bit different from that of the mainline Christianity :P This makes me somewhat of a black sheep in most Christian settings (when talking about this topic I mean). :P

No, I don't think that doing bad things are OK. I would not support the idea of other things that for me are really big sins like hurting animals or hurting humans etc. I am a vegetarian for that very reason, that I do not believe in hurting animals just for me to have something to eat etc.

However, while I am used to the biblical idea of homosexuality being a sin, I do have a different view on what sin is and in my case, being gay is not a sin or having a gay relationship is not sin. I see gay relationships as equal to that of straight relationships, where one enters into it from a special love between two people and that one is committed to each other and does not commit any kind of infidelity towards one's partner.

I don't see gay relationships as stopping marriage. I mean, one can be straight and be married, and one can also have people around oneself who are in a gay relationship, and that does not stop one from being married. I think I get how you mean though, that marriage is only for straight people.

I understand that view too, and I have seen it a lot of times but again, I have a differing view there also, since I consider that gay people can enter into a marriage as well. The idea with a relationship and with marriage is to be faithful to one another and to share one's life with a significant other, to share in a loving bond where sexuality itself is but a small portion of it.

For me, gay or straight marriage is about a bond of love between two people. regardless of whether one has children or not.

Not all straight married people have children or are able to, so that is I guess why I have a different view on marriage between straights people too.

The only reason that gay marriage exists as an option in society is because of the separation of church and state. It is neither reasonable or appropriate that it be incorporated into religious law because while it may work perfectly well in a particular neighborhood, city, or state, it always causes of disunity and separation from the 'body' of the religion. I really think 'civil union' should be adequate to meet the needs of the gay community.

You mean that gays can be married in a secular way, but not in a religious way?

Sorry, I just wanna understand your meaning here

Would a blessing be OK to give to a gay couple? I mean like maybe the temple/faith/church cannot accept the couple in the same way they would a straight couple, but can their union at least be considered like something special?

I hope you get my meaning, or maybe I am using words that aren't in use in Baha'i faith? Sorry, I just dunno yet if there are things like blessings or special ceremonies to give blessings to people and such.

This does happen in some of the Christian churches, where gays cannot get married, but they can get a blessing from the pastor (I know there aren't pastors in the Baha'i faith).

Being gay is not a sin, but is merely a result of a fallen humanity. But committing such actions are sins as described in the NT and OT respectively. Now I can't really such much else to you, other than you are going against historic Christianity and the bible with this view. THat is not meant to be offensive but is just hte obvious truth.

So I would ask you consider the words of Christ.

"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me"

Being gay is not a sin, but is merely a result of a fallen humanity. But committing such actions are sins as described in the NT and OT respectively. Now I can't really such much else to you, other than you are going against historic Christianity and the bible with this view. THat is not meant to be offensive but is just hte obvious truth.

So I would ask you consider the words of Christ.

"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me"

Do we serve humanity or the will of God?

I serve God to the best of my ability. I have a long history of living for God which I will not go into detail about here, but it's a long story and sometimes quite painful.

I am currently recovering from some of the hurts and pains inflicted on my heart and soul from mainstream Christianity in fact.

BTW just to clarify, the pain and sadness that I have undergone within the Christian churches had nothing to do with my view on gay rights. It dealt with something else, that had to do with HOW I intended to live my life for God (not just as a person but in differing positions etc). It's hard to talk about this because it still hurts and upsets me to discuss it and it still awakens a lot of pain inside. I am also not entirely keen on discussing this personal issue on a public forum (no offense intended).

As I said, it's a long story, but yes, I do serve God, and yes, I also believe in gay rights :P

I know it's a contradiction, but in the end, God's love will win over everything, and we are just here to try and understand things and live for God as best as we can, each with our own individual gifts and lives.

Anyway, I dig where you're coming from, and I've been told off many times over for my views...and in worse ways :P (you've been quite polite about it, which is really great! :P).

I am not going to continue this discussion right now, but will come back to it eventually in time when I have more understanding also of the Baha'i faith and views on things.

In any case, my main goal with being on this forum is to learn about things and to learn from others and have friendly discussions on life and everything else.

You mean that gays can be married in a secular way, but not in a religious way?

Sorry, I just wanna understand your meaning here

Would a blessing be OK to give to a gay couple? I mean like maybe the temple/faith/church cannot accept the couple in the same way they would a straight couple, but can their union at least be considered like something special?

I hope you get my meaning, or maybe I am using words that aren't in use in Baha'i faith? Sorry, I just dunno yet if there are things like blessings or special ceremonies to give blessings to people and such.

This does happen in some of the Christian churches, where gays cannot get married, but they can get a blessing from the pastor (I know there aren't pastors in the Baha'i faith).

At present there is no provision for this within the Faith.

Even in the societies where gay marriage is now legal it is still a source of significant social controversy and disunity. For example, many political scientists believe that George Bush would not have been elected to a second term were it not for the 'gay marriage' issue that was such a 'hot potato' in the USA at the time.

Right now, Baha'is make up only a tiny 1/10 of 1% of the population but I really believe by the time our community grows to significant numbers this problem will have been resolved, either by science or by the institutions of the Faith.

God's love is not an illogical love but is a love which is consistent with the morality he has defined and set since before the foundations of the world. And that includes being against homosexual relations. It is truely sad that you have experienced bad things in mainline (what I will assume protestant churches) but that does not justify your position on gay marraige. I do not say this to offend or put you down.

I know it's a contradiction, but in the end, God's love will win over everything, and we are just here to try and understand things and live for God as best as we can, each with our own individual gifts and lives.

God's love is not an illogical love but is a love which is consistent with the morality he has defined and set since before the foundations of the world. And that includes being against homosexual relations. It is truely sad that you have experienced bad things in mainline (what I will assume protestant churches) but that does not justify your position on gay marraige. I do not say this to offend or put you down.

I wasn't using my experiences to justify why I believe in gay rights, but I see your meaning tho :P my point was tho that I was gonna back off this topic for a while, because I've been there, done that and got the t-shirt years ago :P I love that we can discuss about it, but I don't think I am quite as ready to discuss as I thought I was :P I am still just a human being, so I am not always as strong as I wish or think I am :P

But hey, that doesn't mean I am not glad to see you around the forums on other subjects. It just means I can't continue this discussion at the mo :P

Gay rights is just something I guess I will always believe in, same as I will always believe in God too :P I don't have all the answers, and I don't have everything right either, I am just a wanderer on the path to God, so, we may not see eye to eye on everything, but we can still walk together

Thanks for the kind words though on the experiences I had, and yes, it has to do with the Protestant churches mainly, but has also happened elsewhere in other churches. Anyway, I appreciate you giving your time and effort to discuss this. I am just not ready to continue the discussion just yet, but will be back eventually we can always discuss on other topics tho, light and easy stuff for a time

It is one thing to be kind and accepting but that doesnt mean we have to condone same sex sexual activity. It is a sticky issue, I know but i think people can separate lust from love and learn to love the opposite sex then translate that into lust. hehe.

to me that implies we all come from the genetic Adam. So this mean's we are created by our loving Father, deducting further then, those born as homosexual/lesbian/transgender were created by our loving Father; hence their sexual orientations were given them by God! They owe their gender orientation to the Creator. In that sense it cannot be wrong!

or am I being too simplistic???!!!

I have no problem with a persons sexuality as it their business and not mine! As long as no children/minors are involved its fine. But also this line of thought can be used by the enemy!

Bahá'ís believe that homosexuality is one of the many physical imperfections of this world. Since God has allowed other imperfections in humans, why not allow homosexuality so that some souls have another cause to remember their Creator and seek His guidance, that they may spiritually grow in this physical world and be plagued with less imperfections in the proceeding spiritual world? That's my understanding, anyway.

Homosexuality is an impairment from which I am recovering. I believe it is developmental, not genetic. Though I was gay when I became a Baha'i in 1973 when later finally faced with the fact that homosexuality was not accepted as a valid way of life, I felt that was a confirmation of the Faith rather than a deterrant. (That's a miracle to me) There was very, very little info out there then. People do NOT KNOW what that world is like when they condone gay lifestyle. I would want no child of mine to live in that world.

In the 1980's Joseph Nicolosi's work was mentioned in the American Baha'i and I got his book. It helped immensely. I attended a Christian recovery group in East Texas later and it helped also. I would have remarried by now IF I had found the right partner. I had alcoholic parents and have had a tough time growing up, maturing, so I blame that more than the sexuality. Having a gender identity disorder is not a singular problem, so I have my difficulties. I would not go back to being gay or hanging out with gay people now, the Faith is more important.

I have been so saddened by the movement to help kids through bullying with gay support. That is hardly fair or objective help. There are many normal situations in which one could apply gay labels that it is sad to fore-ordain someone's orientation. A friend's 14 year old thought she was gay. They got her into counseling when she was 17 when her mother read her diary and found she had been to bed with 23 boys, and sound she had been molested by an older 1/2 brother like at 8-10. She is not gay now. She got help. I feel powerless to do anything about this gay support. I only hope I can help support the Baha'i teachings.

The Baha'i Faith teaches that homosexual behavior is unacceptable among its members. Voting rights of some of their lesbian, gay and bisexual members (LGB) who are out of the "closet" have been suspended; some memberships have been terminated.

Baha'i beliefs concerning sexual orientation are quite similar to those of the conservative wings of Christianity, Islam, Judaism and other religions.

The Baha'i faith is in a unique position because it has no mechanism by which it can authoritatively change the interpretation of its holy texts.

The Baha'i faith is in a unique position because it has no mechanism by which it can authoritatively change the interpretation of its holy texts.

This is taken by us to be a distinct advantage... in that we do have the authoritative interpretations of the Writings.

It would be as if say Jesus had authorized someone to be the main Interpreter of His teachings such as James the brother of the Lord..or if Prophet Muhammad had designated in writing that Ali His son-in-law was His successor and interpreter. We do believe He authorized Ali to succeed Him but we have nothing in writing to support that.

Having authorized Interpretation is another factor in keeping the Faith united.

"The Baha'i faith is in a unique position because it has no mechanism by which it can authoritatively change the interpretation of its holy texts.

Thanks"

I am grateful that we have to extend ourselves to live up to those teachings that cannot be changed. The world does not need another feel good religion that does not raise us to a higher human condition, but allows us to stay just as we are.

If one reads the guidance from Shoghi Effendi on homosexuality you will see compassion, acceptance, and a grasp of the situation as it is presented now as gay marriages. The lifestyles is not healthy and not so nearly stable as popular opinion would imagine. What is visible to the non-gay population is only the tip of the iceberg. Having sex at a young enough age with someone your own gender can be enough to produce a gay individual especially if pleasureable and prolonged. Early sexual experience is imprinting and bonding. It hurts that the availiabilty of such experience will be increased by being legitimized with acceptance of gay as a normal lifestyle.

Baha'u'llah wrote "Ye are forbidden to commit ZINA, LIWAT, and SIHAQAQ....."

Zina: hetero sex outside of marriage

Liwat: male homosexual acts

Sihaqaq: female homosexual acts

He did not say "why" these are forbidden (haram). We can speculate as to why they are forbidden, but He did not say. HE did not "why" some people are homosexual.

There is a letter written on bahalf of the Guardian that says that adultery and other sexual sins "retard the progress of the soul in the Afterlife." We are not told "why" they do, or how.

"IF" Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God, and Infallible, then He revealed the Will of God for Baha'is. A "Baha'i" means a follower of Baha'u'llah. If we don't "follow" Him, meaning obeying Him, we are not Baha'is.