quote:
First of all, he is not a "British tourist smacked with culture shock", he is the Washington correspondent for the BBC.

Second, if all of you guys think Europe is so much better, why don’t you leave the country (speaking to Americans)? It seems to me, that there are millions of people trying to get in this country everyday (why’s that?)….. I think many Americans are as ignorant as can be, and many stereotypes are much deserved, but no one ever seems to bring the opposite point of view to these boards. For example, the French seem to have a problem with our "class-less" culture, i.e. we ruined Paris with our Mcdonald’s, well why do people eat there then???

I totally agree with the author thinking our censorship is a bit overly conservative (saving private ryan), but to take that one example and now state that we don’t want to hear about the worlds problems! Give me a break…. and all the tsunami coverage I watched was as grim as can be…..and yes we do give more $ and sacrifice more of our own time, and lives, to do good across the world than anywhere else. If you don’t want to hear it its too bad, because it is a fact.

I guess I am saying people read between the lines a little before you jump on the bandwagon.

PS.. Any American who wears a Canadian flag patch while abroad (I’ve heard people advocating this) is utterly pathetic.

You may give the most $$$ in total, but you’re miserably low on the list of per capita donations (private as well):http://www.nationmas…

quote:
It seems to me, that there are millions of people trying to get in this country everyday (why’s that?)….. For example, the French seem to have a problem with our "class-less" culture, i.e. we ruined Paris with our Mcdonald’s, well why do people eat there then???

It’s important to note that just because everyone wants to do or is doing something, that does not make it good or right. This leads to the ruining of cultural artifacts/places, natural ecosystems, etc. etc.

quote:
First of all, he is not a "British tourist smacked with culture shock", he is the Washington correspondent for the BBC.

Whatever he is, he was still smacked with culture shock. Besides, he was a tourist when he went skiing.

quote:Second, if all of you guys think Europe is so much better, why don’t you leave the country (speaking to Americans)?

Aw geez…I never intended on spawning a "who’s better" debate. It was meant to be a discussion on cultural differences embedded in the media from both sides of the Atlantic. (and how this ties in to some discussions we’ve had on previous threads).

Besides, I don’t see why some Americans get so pissy every time they encounter criticism towards America -whether real or perceived. Sensitivities from foreign critism are understandable, but countering internal criticism with a "leave the country" comeback is ridiculous. One can only improve his own country by starting out with constructuve criticism. If you disagree with the idea that is brought up, then use the same democratic tools to counter that point. Don’t ask them to leave the country. You’re doing the exact opposite of the democratic ideals that our foreign policy claims to be promoting. In a democracy, everyone gets to voice their opinion about the country’s institutions, and if they feel something is done better abroad, then by all means, speak out, we’d love to hear that idea and discuss it. Why should the whole world learn from us, but have nothing to teach us…have we become that arrogant and conceited?

quote:It seems to me, that there are millions of people trying to get in this country everyday (why’s that?)…..

Millions of people try to go everywhere. There are millions or people trying to enter the European Union, Australia, Canada, Argentina, United Arab Emirates, Kuwait, and so on. Some of the largest immigrant populations in the world are in Africa, where millions of people have packed up and left for a neighboring country in the past 20 years. The largest population of Afghans outside of Afghanistan is in no, not the USA but in Iran. When faced with economic hardship, war, or political turmoil, people will migrate to wherever conditions are somewhat better, and whichever of the better places is closest. It’s no coincidence that the vast majority of these "millions of people" who try to enter the US come from neighboring Mexico. People from Africa and South Asia head for Europe and the Middle East, because these areas are closer to them. If you think that people are only interested in moving to the USA, you’re wrong. And if you think that the USA is the destination for most of the world’s immigrants, you’re also wrong.

quote:For example, the French seem to have a problem with our "class-less" culture, i.e. we ruined Paris with our Mcdonald’s, well why do people eat there then???

The United States does not have a "classless culture," nor have the French ever criticized what’s supposed to be America’s "classless culture." You’re making this up, entirely. France became a republic and abolished legal hierarchies (ie aristocracy, etc) at about the same time as the United States (late 18th century). Yes, France had a brief return to monarchical and imperial systems in the 19th century (if you even knew this), but we can just as easily point out America’s slavery institution which lasted very late: until the 1860s. Obviously, you don’t know anything about French history and contemporary French society.

quote:but to take that one example and now state that we don’t want to hear about the worlds problems!

I don’t think you understood the article. The article was saying that the US media and American culture have created this la-la-land bubble within most average Americans live, psycholigically. It was not a commentary on US foreign policy, nor was he saying that Americans are indifferent to the world’s problems.

quote:and yes we do give more $ and sacrifice more of our own time, and lives, to do good across the world than anywhere else. If you don’t want to hear it its too bad, because it is a fact.

No, it’s not a fact. The US gives a minute amount of money as foreign aid, in hundreds of millions of dollars which is actually a very tiny amount (compared to a GDP of 10 trillion). Almost all of this aid goes to military and geopolitical allies for foreign policy purposes (Israel, Egypt), not to 3rd world countries out of kindness (like Congo). And yes, it’s the same thing with "sacrificing our lives to go acrss the world." We only sacrifice lives where there’s some geopolitical or economic benefit, like Iraq. Not Rwanda.

After the tsunami, the US pledged a very small amount which was called very stingy…Japan had pledged much more, and the US followed Japan’s example (not the other way around). The EU also donated a lot of aid, and so did India -despite being one of the affected nations itself.

No one is saying that the US is obligated to hand out money. It’s not. We’re just asking people like you to stop claiming that the US hands out huge sums to everyone (and more than anyone), because this is not true. It’s American mythologynot fact. The United States has ceased paying its dues to the UN for several years now (all countries pay dues to the UN, and the fee is related to their GDP) leaving the world’s second largest economy -Japan as the current largest contributor of money to the UN. Furthermore, Japan and Taiwan offered a huge financial package to the countries affected by the 1997 Asian financial crisis (Indonesia, Thailand, etc), but the US arranged so that they accept money from the US-based World Bank instead (Washington threatened Japan and Taiwan with reduced access to the US market if they followed through with the financial aid package to Indonesia and Thailand). The reason Washington did this is because by accepting the World Bank’s package, Thailand, Indonesia, and South Korea will have to accept the World Bank’s conditions: to enact various economic and financial policies that will unevenly benefit American economic interests.

Not to mention US-imposed embargoes on various countries which affect businesses outside those countries as well, and how countries who host US military bases pay for much of the expenses of those bases (and in some cases as in Japanmost of the expenses are paid by the host country).

So before you go on and on about the US saving the world, please stop…read and educate yourself…and realize that this is a multilateral world. What you see/hear on the news is not the entire news. It’s only a fraction of the world’s developments. Your local 9:00 news doesn’t say anything about EU aid to developing countries, because it doesn’t pertain to people in your area…that doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.

quote:I guess I am saying people read between the lines a little before you jump on the bandwagon.

Ditto. sjutom, you need to stop jumping on the Im-angry-because-America-saves-the-ungrateful-world-according-to-my-local-news bandwagon.

quote:I agree to an extent, you have to have a balance between conserving the past, and embracing the present,

"Embracing the present" doesn’t mean that they have to embrace America’s present.

quote:I am sorry but all the old world cities in Europe are going to evolve eventually with stores/things that might take away from their cultural authenticity, but don’t go screaming bloody murder if the store happens to be incorporated in America… and I don’t eat Mcdonalds or like it, it was just an example of hypocrisy (mind my spelling)

What a childish statement based on mindless generalizations. You’re making the presumption that all 60 million people in France loathe McDonald’s and that they all eat there too. Has it ever occurred to you that the ones who loathe McDonald’s (a fraction of the population) are not the ones who eat there? (another fraction of the population). It’s hilarious that you claim to be worldly, but make such thoughtless conclusions.

You may be a man….but, I think I love you! On behalf of all us Europeans who get the "we-saved-your-arses-two-times-in-a-century" lecture when we make a comment even remotely critical of the US: Thank you!!!

Classless, meant without class, not classes as in classes of the feudal sytem. Thanks for the condescending history lesson…Here is some French history I do know. D – Day, America saving France, but wait, where are the French?

Yes, EVERY country chooses to help out where it is to their benefit, thats called politics.

"American Mythology" – Who rebuilt Europe after WWII?

I can’t get into your whole diatribe, as I have a life, and don’t live through a message board….You need to get laid.

There were many forces on D-Day. The former occupied countries rebuilt themselves, the expensive loan from the US wasn’t a miracle-worker.
My country should perhaps stop giving foreign aid to the US in the form of helping build your schools (which you TRLY need!!)…

quote:
It seemed a little bit more about middle American culture though…I mean seriously, the thing about how no Americans could imagine how dressing up as a nazi at a party could possibly be funny or forgivable and how Europeans are just so decadent and bad? I don’t really know if you’re going to see that kind of attitude so much in the more metropolitan areas of the US.

Um…the third larges metropolitan area of the US is in "middle America"

The US is slowly becoming more and more conservative merely for the fact that everyone is becoming so darn paranoid about possibly offending people. One of the side-effects of living in a democracy such as the US is that people have the chance to express their opinions freely…even if it’s not necessarily the same ideas shared by the majority. And as a consequence of this freedom of speech, the government, media, etc. must take extra steps in order to try to not offend those with dissenting opinions. One random historical sidenote…some of the first European residents in the areas that would eventually become the USA were the Pilgrims…mostly Puritans and other highly conservative religious minorities who left Europe to escape persecution.

It sucks that some Europeans (and others from around the world)harbor negative feelings towards Americans. In fact just today I experienced being degraded by a student in one of my classes (I’m an American attending a university in Spain)simply because I argued something from an "American" point of view. However, I often can’t help but think that some of these negative views of Americans comes from the fact that some Americans tend to be so darn full of pride that they argue their views and points in a manner that is annoying and offensive to non-Americans.

Sometimes, pride can turn into or seem like arrogance. Also, often, we don’t people from somewhere else "butting in" and telling us what to do/say/wear/eat/drink.

"why did the euros cry out about iraq, but didn’t shed a tear for rawanda.
they said american went in for the oil. i told them it wasn’t for the sand. the reason their government is pitching a fit, has to do with the $ they had tied up in iraq and they need the oil more than america in the long run. america have the largest supply of reserve oil in the west. i ask them, who would u rather control the oil the moderates or fundamentalist, they don’t reply.
oil in the west in general has decease greatly, much isn’t coming up."

Who are "they"? I see you’re lumping an entire continent into one here, while at the same time bitching about how unfair many people in Europe are towards you and your country.

"why is the world not doing anything about sudan, while genocide is going on in sudan this minute. oil,oil,oil is the main reason. china is doing most of the blocking during voting in the UN. i don’t see any euro opposing the chinese. protesting about their govrnment interest in ending the arms embargo against china."

Again, Europe is a continent. There is no ONE European gov’t (BTW, the "Euro" is a CURRENCY, not a continent).

"what good is the U.N if the peace keeper are raping girls or trading food for sex with young girls."

And this goes for everyone??? Please, generalise some more!!!

"if the euros get the news that the americans don’t get, than why don’t they care to do something about it(demonstrate)."

I’ve seen several demonstrations.

"i don’t hear much about the 5million killed in the congo in the news in euroland."

There is no such thing called "Euroland", just as there is no such thing called "Jesusland".

as long as the west,china need more resources(oil) the longer the continent of africa will suffer. the west and china will remain
silent

"i don’t hear the media or public talk about the africans drowning by the hundreds trying to get to europe."

I’ve heard about that, and I don’t live in a country that is close to Africa.

"but,they do talk about the
mexicans,south-americans and cubans who die trying to get to americans. how many of u(during u trip to europe) have heard about the africans drowning, trying to get into europe through spain or italy. both are closer to europe, than cuba is to america."

Again with the generalising. Africa is closer to Spain than Cuba is to the US, probably, but Africa is probably not closer to Norway than Cuba is to the US. Comprende?

"the west(which include europe)missed a golden opportunity to come together after 9/11."

No, that was the US, which under the incompetent Bush distanced themselves from the world. Bush said that "Either you are with us, or against us".

"the euros(french/germany)"

Europe consists of more than France and Germany.

"want to be the top dog again on the world stage and want to counter america power. which is to late, since anerica is the only superpower in the world for now."

BTW, "America" isn’t acountry but a landmass made up of two continents. The correct name(s) would be "the USA", or "The United States of America", or "the US", or "The United States".

"on 9/11 most euros who said something to me, didn’t ask how my family/friends was or how i was. instead they insinuated or out right said america(ns)brought it upon themselves or deserved it."

Yes, it’s the same thing you can read from US "Christians" who write about how the "heathens" in South-Asia deserved to get hit by the tsunami.

"then they tried to verbally beat me down, because i didn’t agree with them that america shouldn’t attack afghanistan. i held my own, and they became more verbally abusive.
most euros think america is more of a threat to the world than china or russia."

Well, it’s true that the US is a larger threat to world peace than Russia or China. What’s your point?

"if i had to chose between america or the euros, i would chose america without a doubt."

You were born there, I don’t blaim you. I would without a doubt chose MY home country.

"i don’t hear the euros talking about each other countries dirty laundry."

Sure we do…all the time.

"there is a lot of dirty laundry they haven’t aired.
they think their officials personal life isn’t a matter for the public,especially the french."

Nope. We (yes, I know I shouldn’t be speaking for all Europeans) don’t want something like the Clinton-circus in the US. It overshadowed the politics.

"most euros who have something to say to me,think americans are stupid"

Well, certain people in your country seem to only confirm that. Perhaps they’ve seen/talked to a lot of your countrymen who seemed a little bit "thick"?

",racist."

Well, there are racists in your country, aren’t they? You were an apartheid (like South-Africa) until the 60’s.

"they think america have no history or culture."

Well, that is true.

"what i find strange is that many americans agree,especially, so call euro-americans. do any of u agree?."

Well, it’s not all lies.

"americans didn’t kill and enslave the indians and africans."

No, because the real Americans were the Amerindians…

"ensalvement of other people to the americas begun with the euros. only when some enslaved people begun to revolt(haiti) did the euros understand they no longer could control from afar."

So, how is the US empire doing? Still got Puerto Rico and Hawaii under control?? Good thing you stole half of Mexico from the Mexicans!

"the dutch was one of the main transporter of africans.
the dutch went back to indonesia after ww2 to claim it to be theirs.
if it wasn’t for the american, who told them to get the hell out, they would have continue to oppress the people.
the dutch think their government didn’t enslave the indonesia.
although the largest immigrant community are the germans and indonesia,the dutch think its the morocans."

Uh huh, and the US was so graceful to carry on the slave trade. Congrats.

"when americans became americans they did continue the evil treatment of the indians and africans, they inherited from their fore-fathers/mothers."

Ok, so no individual freedom here??? Slave trade = genetic??

the french probably helped the patriot to get back at the brits and gain a foot hold in america. since they had their butts kicked by the brits.

"i think most americans are still carrying on the racism they inherited from their fore-father/mothers, although in a different covert way, and still benefit from the privilege of institutional and social racism(white supremacy) directly/indirecetly. its one reason the kkk and its like exist and continue to grow.
but,i think the most euros are far more deeply racist than most americans."

During he 1920’s, there were 4 mill. KKK-ers in the US. How many are there today?

The "immigrant nation" wouldn’t allow Asians into the country for a period of time in the early 1900’s. How ironic!

So, you’ve been to every European country and you can document that Europeans are more racist???

"most think there is no institutional racism in europe.
most think racism is about dark skin only. tell that to the roma of europe,they treat them like dirt. the albanians are blamed for everything by the greeks."

The US was the no.1 supporter of Hitler outside of Germany. What’s the no. of Nazis in your country today?

Your police beat up black kids for speeding.

"just like all americans benefit from being americans as long as they are not in the lions den."

Riiight! Like how the Amerindians "benefited"??? LOL!!! How about the communists in the 50’s and 60’s? How about the dissenters today? Those who oppose Bush. How about those who oppose your fascist Patriot Act?

"i should know, since i live in europe."

Of course, you also know what we think and how we act, what we like and dislike. We’re one big homogenous group, we Europeans.

"when i’m with other nationalities, and our passports are checked. i’m always given back my passport in sec.the others are scrutinize, some longer than others."

Well, golly! I guess you havn’t heard about what it’s like for foreigners in the US now! Checking of passenger lists (which was illegal, and which most passangers don’t know about), retina scans, fingerprints, being questioned etc.

"most euros still think america is what it was in 65.
when i’m home and talk to ny’er. they will ask me question about europe. when they make stupid statements and i call them on it, they do fes-up to their ignorance."

You know, you may not have as much knowledge as you profess to have.

"its the opposite with euros,they think they know america and won’t admit they are wrong."

Again with the generalisations…

"when i ask euros from western europe are they europeans, i mainly get no. many wish the wall was still up, now that they realize they have to share the $."

??? The EU has nothing to do with any wall!!! The EU has nothing to do with people being Europeans or not, when their country exists on the European continent.

"if the euro media is more superior than america, why are they not schooling their people on the e.u. why are most euros ignorant of what’s going on in the e.u, what’s it about."

Here’s some more arrogance from an outsider. I bet YOU know better about this than a European, huh???
Thank you, but those who it concerns know more than enough about THEIR country and the choices THEY make about a subject that matters to THEM (and not you!).

"i was told by many euros in the 80’s that greece is not apart of the eu and albania is not in europe."

Maybe you mixed those up, and maybe it was a joke/wishful thinking???

"how many of u know that the brits are made to paid for their t.v and if they don’t pay for the license, the cop come a knocking. it was the same in holland until some years ago."

So?? They pay for their TV sets, I would presume. At least this is how we do it here. What does this have to do with our freer media?

"there are so many things americans doesn’t known about europe, because their media in america don’t write about it or by those americans, who think they know much about europe because they visit once or 2 time a year."

True, you would be an example of that…

"once u start living among them, than u realize how deep the ignorance/dislike is of each other, of america. how ignorant most are of things in general about each other and america. its a small 0/0 of them who think for themselves. most are like sheep and follow what the left write about america. which has been going on since america came in to excistence. they might go to each other country for the summer mainly, but there isn’t much contact because they do the package trip."

Again with the arrogant generalising and acting like you know what every European thinks of his/her or other countries.

"how many of u know about the racism in europe towards the soccer player who are black from the so call fans. if what went on in the stands of europe, were to happen in america. there would be alot of whup-ass happening across america."

I’ve heard about this. If it happened in the US, you’d have more pc-ers condemning it, simply because there are more black people in the USand because you used to have an apartheid (you’ve been badly "burnt" on the race issue before).

"most africans with a college education i meet in holland want to go to america."

Gee, why is that you think??? Could it be Hollywood??? US brands???

"in the past few years 20,000 somalies have left to the u.k, because they can start their own business and live a better life. what they didn’t know before they left is tht the brits don’t want them either and blame immigrants of taking and not giving anything in return. which is a load of bull."

Yes, there’s no complaining about immigrants in the US…

"america wear their religion on their sleves,but they are not killing each other like the scotts or irish do."

Ok… I guess you’ve never heard/read/seen any statistics on the gun-shot victims in the US, which is among someof the worst on earth.
11,400 people die in the US every year as the result of gun-shot wounds. Then there is all the other violence/crime…

"americans don’t have to carry a card stating what religion they are,"

No, but many of them are forced to pray in school and read (only) biblical scriptures (on the walls) in the court rooms.

like they have to in greece.

"the euros are just as religious as americans are, but they are born into it and see it as their birth right."

Is there ever and end to these generalisations???? Nope, you’re wrong, the European continent is complex. Some countries has a higher % of people saying they believe in a god than othercountries. The trend in Europe is in fact that fewer are religious than in the US.

"it does depend on the country,the northern euros are less into practicing their religion and the southern euros are more into practicing their religion. both fill thier churches less than americans, south americans or africans do, or muslims do their mosque."

Well, this is by-and-large correct, I suppose…

"there is only one race, one planet. which one do u belong to,live on?"

What’s this about???

"for those american who deny they are americans to europeans and say they are canadians, they shoot canadians and europeans,too."

Huh? Europeans shoot people because they’re Canadian or European too?
and again: since when was being "European" equated with belonging to a COUNTRY???

"when they are in the lions den or go after the soft target.
if u think euros are not being anti-americans, but just anti-bush.
u’r kidding u’r self. since the iraq war, i hear f**k americans,mainly,not bush.come 08 they’ll still be anti-american or anti-whoever is in the white house."

When Yanks spew their BS about my country or other European countries, I don’t call them anti-Europeans. I wonder why so many Yanks feel the urge to call us "anti" something simply because we dislike something, just like the Israelis do…
Hey, if you’re an arrogant Yank, you’ll get s**t back for sure…

"if u think euros or the rest of the world have america self interest as their #1 concern. u’r living in la la-land."

Why the h**l should Europeans care about the no.1 concerns of the US??? Do people in the US care about the no.1 concerns of different European countries???

"when they ask me where i’m from, i say with a smile, from AMERICA.
before the iraq war many use to say i wasn’t american or from their.
now they don’t, maybe they think u have to be nuts to say u are american."

You’re NOT from "America", you’re from the US. Again, "America" is NOT a country!!!

"the euros are afraid of the change happening right under their nose,"

Afraid of what??? All I see on the news is hysterical Yanks talking about terrorists…

"so they made america their punching bag, instead of their own
system."

If the Yanks stop meddling in other country’s affairs, people will stop meddling in those of yours (the US)…

"they want to maintain their welfare state and have everything their parents had. which isn’t possible,anymore."

Sure it is. Should we adopt the &quoterfect" system the US has??? LOL!!!

"they are not having the babies needed to increase their population"

That’s BS!

"and they don’t want foreigners coming to their country."

Depends on the foreigner doesn’t it??? We are more willing to take in foreigners than he US…

"they say europe is not a land of immigration(america is)"

No, Europe isn’t "a land", that is correct. We are not made up of immigrants, no. BTW, the Amerindians and Inuits aren’t immigrants…

"although its filled with immigrants since the early 60’s"

Wrong again!!! 1st of all, Europe is not "filled" with immigrants (aren’t we very racists??? – YOU wrote that..) , 2nd of all immigration didn’t start ocerall in Europe in the 1960’s. PLEASE know what you’re writing about!!!!

and have the 2nd-3rd gen.

"the difference between americans and europeans immigrants. in america they become americans,"

Nope, the Amerindians are the true Americans. But, from a Western viewpoint, an "American" (again, wrong word!) is anyone who immigrates to the US (US citisen, NOT "American"!), so therefore everyone becomes an "American".

"in many european countries they don’t become euros, even if they are born there they are still seen as immigrants."

1st, there is no such thing as "euros" (again, the Euro is a currency!), 2nd, there is no common European nationality, 3rd, being a n Irishman for example is not about geography but ethnicity. Irish = not a geo. concept like an "American".

"if any of u americans posting here want to give up u’r american bright right and become european. u’ll find u can’t get a green card, because u gave up u’r american citizenship.its not greener on the other side."

Well, it’s the same thing the other way. D’oh!

"most europeans would rather live in american than each other country, especially the brits."

Oh my goodness!!! You can’t BELIEVE how INCREDIBLYWRONG you are!!! Believe me on this – as a European – when I tell you that if there is one place most Europeans most definately would NOT live, it’s the US!!! BTW, your wrongful comment above is in stark contrast to your rant about how anti-US Europeans are. Anyway, as I wrote, most people chose to live wher they were born – their home country. It’s natural to YOU, and it’s natural to most Europeans (who in general live better than most US citicens).

quote:
I wasn’t trying to emphasise that as more important, just that the tables don’t make the US look as bad in that respect. I’m not surprised that Japan would be out spending the US on a disaster that hit so close to home, but being number two in that category doesn’t hurt…..

….This is subjective since there will never be a hard fact rule stating which is morally and ethically right. There’s so many factors in this that developing a system of weights and measures to rationally come up with a ranking system is best served by an Economics Grad student working on his/her final. Even then I expect it to be slanted.

Nice save, alphuris….but very obvious. You’re only now pulling back your emphasis on what is widely considered a flawed table of judgement, albeit subjective, but still widely unaccepted.

quote:Fabulous critique until the rhetoric. Personally I, and many who are interested about the subject, think the UN is a facade for power hungry individuals and countries.

Exactly, alphuris, each country looks out for its own interests. And that’s where the UN comes in: it is designed as an institution of checks and balances that prevents a country from walking all over other countries in pursuit of its economic and political interests. It is not supposed to be an extension of US foreign policy. This is where most ordinary Americans get confused.

You suspect other countries of using the UN for alterior motives. Fair enough, of course. But don’t rule out the probability of the US doing the same thing…and being far more effective, since it isafter all the most powerful country. In fact, the United States is the country that is most suspected around the world of taking advantage of the UN for its own alterior motives. To put it plainly, the UN is considered America’s puppet by many people in Europe, Asia, Latin America, and especially the Middle East.

Is this "conspiracy theory" outrageous? Well, consider that for 55 years, from the UN’s creation to the end of the 20th century, the United Nations agreed with and enforced virtually every aspect of US foreign policy. Either that, or it remained silent. The UN either agreed with Washington or remained neutral during this entire period. It wasn’t until the Iraq war of 2003 that ordinary Americans with little background knowledge on international relations started to accuse the world and the UN of the same things the rest of the world had been accusing the US all along.

quote:I can’t really weigh in on this because I honestly loathe history and don’t see the relevance in studying it since it doesn’t benefit me in the real world. You can appropriately label me as ignorant but that would be fallacious as thoughts I can contribute on the modern aspect of things are still valid. I stand neutral on this topic though. [regarding Asia]

This isn’t history, Alphuris. It’s current events. For the past 20 years, the Asia-Pacific region has been dominated by Asian attempts to create an East Asian equivalent to the European Union, as well as Washington’s heavy involvement to stop this, and financial negotiations between the Federal Reserve, World Bank, and Asian national banks that brought about the Asian financial crisis of 1997 (from which some of these countries, especially Indonesia, are still trying to recover). This is an ongoing issue, not long-ago history like how the "US saved Europe during and immediately following WWII." And you can bet on it that the concept of an Asia-Pacfic econimic bloc that does not include the far-flung US will only gain more momentum in the years to come.

quote:No doubt, but they also grew up driving that way. Most of the people who venture to the rockies to ski don’t deal with that weather regularly, thus the dependence on what they think will make them better drivers under the circumstances. I hate American’s for the SUV revolution even though I own two SUV’s myself. Then again I grew up driving normal cars up hills SUV owners would cringe at, and I still drive up those hills, I just do it with a rig of my own choosing and modifications.

Do you think that every European driving through the Alps is from the Alps region? You don’t think that residents from Rome or Paris or Vienna ever visit the Italian/French/Austrian Alps?

quote:Aspen is also pefectly capable of being bombarded by a blizzard and terrible conditions. Any road becomes unsafe when you can’t see more than 20 feet ahead.

And an SUV will increase your visibility?

quote:Switching subjects slightly, Europeans blaming younger American’s for past administrations blunders is about as valid as blaming them for whats wrong with any country besides america. Until their prejudices of American’s based on past events are removed they are just as at fault as we are for having an administration that doesn’t appear to be in control representing us.

That’s a very good point, alphuris, but consider this:

There’s a reason why people easily find fault with ordinary Americans for the various negative aspects of US foreign policy, past and present. The reason is that Americans today still fail to acknowledge the mistakes of their government’s recent past, and they still claim their foreign policy as a burden that is beneficial to the world, when to people around the world all evidence points otherwise. This is why the world seems to ordinary Americans to be fixated with the US and not with Russia, or Germany or Japan, or France, or Britain. Unlike these countries, the US still is a superpower, and in combination with this unique status the US continues a similar foreign policy only more agressive. Thus people will cite examples from the recent past in order to argue against Washington’s current foreign policy.

These events are in no way obsolete. These events that people bring up are far more relevant, and far more recent than WWIIwhich Americans love to bring up all the time. And -as you just did Americans interpret criticism of US foreign policy as &quotrejudice and hatred."

It doesn’t occurr to these ordinary Americans that this "hatred" of the US is driven by fear. People are afraid that one disagreement between their government and the US government will result in reduced trade with other countries, sanctions, UN santions, indirect sanctions (various political rhetoric that will effectively reduce trade/tourism/foreign direct investment to a certain country from other countres), and worse case scenario war. And this is why people believe that their country is always bending over backwards for the US. You may disagree that this is happening, but please understand this perspective before accusing the world of "hating" or "being prejudiced" towards the US. And current US foreign policy isn’t doing anything to alleviate these fears.

You always write well-thought, to-the-point posts.

My criticism of the US is not based upon fear of the reduction of trade, and I do not believe this is a common theme in my country either. I dislike and criticise what the US has done in Iraq, not because I think my country will be attacked, but because I believe it was wrong.

Since it appears that many Americans wear their religion on their sleeve (and I am not disagreeing with this) I am wondering what other Americans think of our Government always referring to "God". Does this bother you? What do Europeans think of this practice? Do your governments do this as well?

It has been established that the US is not the only place people immigrate to but we do have many people of religions other than Christianity immigrate here. They go through the somewhat rigorous process of becoming a citizen of the United States and then our government shoves God down their throats during public addresses and gatherings. I find this insensitive and rude. Believe it or not, [not] all people (including Americans) believe in God…and what happened to the separation of church and state?!

I have to admit that I notice it more now that Bush is in office and has made it his goal to convince us that only he and God can protect us from the "Evils".

As for the tsunami relief topic: When the gentleman from the UN commented on the fact that in general "WESTERNCOUNTRIES are stingy". Many Americans immediately took it to mean the US…geez, a little defensive are we? Many people here were outraged that he could call the US stingy. It was a slap in the face for many people here who think our Government is a savior and does no wrong. And no one can argue with me that initial figure the US government put out there was incredibly STINGY! 15 million… What a joke! Later in Bush’s (long awaited) comments on the tsunami relief effort he stated “We pledged an initial $35 million in relief assistance.” Yeah, after he realized that other nations were giving a much more reasonable amount they decided to add another $20 Million.

Don’t get me wrong, I love living in the US but the close-mindedness and ethnocentricity here is so ANNOYING sometimes. My $0.02.

quote:
Since it appears that many Americans wear their religion on their sleeve (and I am not disagreeing with this) I am wondering what other Americans think of our Government always referring to "God". Does this bother you? What do Europeans think of this practice? Do your governments do this as well?

It has been established that the US is not the only place people immigrate to but we do have many people of religions other than Christianity immigrate here. They go through the somewhat rigorous process of becoming a citizen of the United States and then our government shoves God down their throats during public addresses and gatherings. I find this insensitive and rude. Believe it or not all people (including Americans) believe in God…and what happened to the separation of church and state?!

I have to admit that I notice it more now that Bush is in office and has made it his goal to convince us that only he and God can protect us from the "Evils".

As for the tsunami relief topic: When the gentleman from the UN commented on the fact that in general "WESTERNCOUNTRIES are stingy". Many Americans immediately took it to mean the US…geez, a little defensive are we? Many people here were outraged that he could call the US stingy. It was a slap in the face for many people here who think our Government is a savior and does no wrong. And no one can argue with me that initial figure the US government put out there was incredibly STINGY! 15 million… What a joke! Later in Bush’s (long awaited) comments on the tsunami relief effort he stated “We pledged an initial $35 million in relief assistance.” Yeah, after he realized that other nations were giving a much more reasonable amount they decided to add another $20 Million.

Don’t get me wrong, I love living in the US but the close-mindedness and ethnocentricity here is so ANNOYING sometimes. My $0.02.

Thanks for the article and interesting thread Luv_the_Beach. ~Amy

PS – And the whole gas-guzzling SUV craze here…totally ridiculous.

I don’t see alot of difference between hardcore fundamentalist Muslims and the ultra right wing Christian Government which Bush leads in the US, religion is the greatest evil in the world today.

No, but many people from around the world do have a fear of the US that shapes the way they deal with the United States. In the run up to Germany’s most recent national elections (when the center-left eventually won on a platform that included opposition to the war) the center-right (CDU party) argued that opposition to the war would reduce trade with the US, and have detrimental economic and poliltical effects for Germany. This didn’t happen but, as I was saying, the actions of a particular group of people (in this case the CDU/CSU party) was influenced by fear of US political power. Granted, countries that have some cultural and ethnic similarties with the US like Norway and Germany may find it inconeivable that matters would ever get extremely bad in their relationship with the US (and they’re probably right, at least for the near and medium future), but ceratin Middle Eastern and North African societies, for example, have a reasonable logic for feeling otherwise.

AmyMN,

Good post. With regards to religion in the US, it’s a rather sticky subject, and in more ways than one we drew ourselves in this corner. In my opinion, the &quotolitically correct" movement of the late 1980s/early 1990s is to blame for the major conservative backlash in the following decade. I agree with some apsects of political correctness, but there were other areas where political correctness was overdone and this has had unintended consequences.

While the United States is on paper a secular state with a long tradition of immigration and cultural/ethnic pluralism, it is also a nation with Christian and European roots. 95% of the population has a Christian background (I’m including agnostics, atheists, and non-practicing Christians who come from families with a Christian background, and who still follow certain Christian traditions such as Christmas and the Christian or "Westerm" calendar), roughly 80-85% (maybe more) of the population speaks American English in the home (and most of the rest speak American Spanish), and so on. In our efforts to create a more tolerant society, we have withdrawn our recongition of the United States as a European/Christian-rooted and Christian-majority society instead of finding a way to balance this with secular law and respect for minorities. We massively failed to to strike a balance between the respect for minorities and embrace of immigrants with the recognition for Christianity’s massive influences on American culture. Unfortunately, we have drawn an impenetrable line between the two, and as a result, we now have a population dividing into two extremes. This is now creating an environment in which religious funamentalism thrives. And no one has caught on yet.

quote:
95% of the population has a Christian background (I’m including agnostics, atheists, and non-practicing Christians who come from families with a Christian background, and who still follow certain Christian traditions such as Christmas and the Christian or "Westerm" calendar), roughly 80-85% (maybe more) of the population speaks American English in the home (and most of the rest speak American Spanish), and so on.

Good post, but I just want to make clear that Christmas is absolutely NOT a Christian holiday. Christmas, just like Easter and All Hallows Eve, is pagan. Christmas was introduced into the Christian calender by Catholic clerics in the 6th century, in order to get "damn pagans" to worship the Christian god and Jesus (and getting them to pay a "tenth" to the Church, of course).

quote:
Since it appears that many Americans wear their religion on their sleeve (and I am not disagreeing with this) I am wondering what other Americans think of our Government always referring to "God". Does this bother you? What do Europeans think of this practice? Do your governments do this as well?

I had written a rather well-thought post on this, but then understood that I was not logged on. However, I will give it another try.

In my country, we do not refer to god or blessings commonly within politics or social happenings (except religious events, of course). Our country’s motto is "All for Norway".
I feel as though Bush saying "God bless ‘America’" is like saying "God bless us as we deserve it the most, while noone else does". It appears somewhat arrogant to me. Perhaps this is due to own prejudices, but I have a hard time shaking off that feeling. However, perhaps when Bush says it he actually means it that way.

quote:
It has been established that the US is not the only place people immigrate to but we do have many people of religions other than Christianity immigrate here. They go through the somewhat rigorous process of becoming a citizen of the United States and then our government shoves God down their throats during public addresses and gatherings. I find this insensitive and rude. Believe it or not all people (including Americans) believe in God…and what happened to the separation of church and state?!

As an agnostic, I can understand how it is to feel like believers in Jesus and the Bible look down upon you.

In certain US schools, pupils must join in prayers (though they can "fake it&quot, and on several court walls hang words from the Bible. If there is to be freedom OF religion as well as freedom FROM religion, solutions should be found that can benefit everyone. Instead of putting Christians into a special category, why not include texts from all religions on the walls of the courts? In addition, texts from atheists and agnostics could be included as well.
If you feel an urge to pray, must everyone else pray with you? If you are Christian, does that make you capable of knowing what is best for all those who are NOT?

On the subject of seperation of Church and state, I can tell you that my country still has Church and state rolled into one. It’s a joke in my eyes.

BTW, you wrote that "all believe in God". This is wrong. Who is "God"? You mean the Christian god? Buddhists, Sikhs and Thaoists do not believe in a god at all, neither do atheists and agnostics. Asatruar, Sedtruar etc., Hindus, panists, romanists etc. believe in several gods, Wiccans and animists believe there are no gods, but only spirits/a divine power.

quote:
I have to admit that I notice it more now that Bush is in office and has made it his goal to convince us that only he and God can protect us from the "Evils".

Bush has a black/white perception of the world, a perception he indeed shares with Osama bin Laden. A black/white perception (good vs evil) is one of the hallmarks of a fundamentalist, but the truth is that neither Bush nor bin Laden are true fundamentalists. They both are motivated by greed, power hunger, hate, fear and a wish for revenge. A true fundamentalist focuses on a cause for idealist reasons, in order to &quoturify" the world or to "enlighten" the world.

quote:
As for the tsunami relief topic: When the gentleman from the UN commented on the fact that in general "WESTERNCOUNTRIES are stingy". Many Americans immediately took it to mean the US…geez, a little defensive are we? Many people here were outraged that he could call the US stingy. It was a slap in the face for many people here who think our Government is a savior and does no wrong. And no one can argue with me that initial figure the US government put out there was incredibly STINGY! 15 million… What a joke! Later in Bush’s (long awaited) comments on the tsunami relief effort he stated “We pledged an initial $35 million in relief assistance.” Yeah, after he realized that other nations were giving a much more reasonable amount they decided to add another $20 Million.

The gentleman you refer to, mr. Egeland – who happens to be a countryman of mine – did indeed not point a finger at any particular country and call that country stingy. I read an article by the neo-con Ann Coulter, who claimed that mr. Egeland had singled out the US as stingy in his address, so I wrote an e-mail and pointed out this obvious distortion of facts to her. She has yet to answer me. Gee, I wonder why…

quote:
Don’t get me wrong, I love living in the US but the close-mindedness and ethnocentricity here is so ANNOYING sometimes. My $0.02.

One would believe that a socalled "immigration country" like the US would be more open, but from the past we can learn that it (past) will come back to us, only renewed and in a new &quotackage".

quote:
Thanks for the article and interesting thread Luv_the_Beach. ~Amy

Yes indeed, the topic has been most interesting, and miss/mr. Luv_the_Beach’s have been very well-thought.

quote:
95% of the population has a Christian background (I’m including agnostics, atheists, and non-practicing Christians who come from families with a Christian background, and who still follow certain Christian traditions such as Christmas and the Christian or "Westerm" calendar), roughly 80-85% (maybe more) of the population speaks American English in the home (and most of the rest speak American Spanish), and so on.

Good post, but I just want to make clear that Christmas is absolutely NOT a Christian holiday. Christmas, just like Easter and All Hallows Eve, is pagan. Christmas was introduced into the Christian calender by Catholic clerics in the 6th century, in order to get "damn pagans" to worship the Christian god and Jesus (and getting them to pay a "tenth" to the Church, of course).

FromNorway,

The origins of Christmas and Easter may be pagan, but they are now Christian hoidays. These pagan holidays were reformatted to celebrate Christian events, and are now only celebrated either by Christians, or by agnostics with Christian backgrounds. A practicing Muslim will not celebrate Christmas, despite its non-Christian origins. The holiday is associated with the birth of Jesus Christ.

The origins of Christmas and Easter may be pagan, but they are now Christian hoidays. These pagan holidays were reformatted to celebrate Christian events, and are now only celebrated either by Christians, or by agnostics with Christian backgrounds. A practicing Muslim will not celebrate Christmas, despite its non-Christian origins. The holiday is associated with the birth of Jesus Christ.

Luv_the_Beach,

I am sorry, but you are mistaken. They are not only celebrated by Christians or "agnostics with Christian backgrounds" (I don’t know of any agnostic who has a "Christian background", I certainly don’t have one). Christmas (or "jul", which is it’s original, correct name) is celebrated by Asatruar/Sedtruar and the likes in the region it was "born": Scandinavia (note: Christmas also has roots to Saturnalia in Rome). Also Wiccans and other Celtic faith groups celebrate the holiday, as it was introduced to the British isles along with the Norse pantheon. Christmas has not been "reformatted", but Christian images have been blended in with the original pagan symbols (the wreath, the tree, the bearded man bringing gifts, the sled, the reindeer, holly and ember etc.) of the ancient, pagan festival. Same goes for Easter (the eggs and the hare symbolise fertility) and All Hallows Eve. Many different cultures celebrate Easter (after Ostara/Eostre), a fertility festival. All Hallows Eve is an ancient Celtic festival that honours the dead, whilst taking heed of evil spirits (thus the masks to scare them off).

I’m sorry, but my skin starts to crawl when I read that "Christmas" (jul), Easter or All Hallows Eve are Christian (though few claim that about All Hallows Eve).

Anyway, I don’t have a Christian background just because I grew up in a country where 42% of people surveyed on if they were "believers" said they believed in "a god" (any god, not just the Christian one).
I don’t deny the unfortunate effects of Christianity on my society, and that it has effected (infected?) me as well, but it is not my "background" as such. I denounce Christianity.

Are any of those cultures still around? I’m talking about present-day, not pre-Christian times.

I don’t know you personally, but as a Norwegian, it’s a pretty safe bet that you have a Christian background. What I mean by that is that someone with a Christian background comes from a family lineage that was at some point in the past practicing Christians. It may have been your parents’ generation, your grand-parents, or great-grandparents. Whatever the case, you live in a culture that has been deeply influenced by Christianity. Christianity’s role in Norwegian society may have changed, but you can’t deny the major historical roles that Christianity and the Lutheran Church have had in shaping Norwegian culture. Call it Christian, call it post-Christian, call it whatever, but the religion’s imprint on your society is there. Let’s start with Norway’s flag. There’s a big cross on it.

quote:
Are any of those cultures still around? I’m talking about present-day, not pre-Christian times.

I’m talking about the belief systems practiced by the ancestors/people of those who founded the respective cultures.

quote:
I don’t know you personally, but as a Norwegian, it’s a pretty safe bet that you have a Christian background. What I mean by that is that someone with a Christian background comes from a family lineage that was at some point in the past practicing Christians. It may have been your parents’ generation, your grand-parents, or great-grandparents. Whatever the case, you live in a culture that has been deeply influenced by Christianity. Christianity’s role in Norwegian society may have changed, but you can’t deny the major historical roles that Christianity and the Lutheran Church have had in shaping Norwegian culture. Call it Christian, call it post-Christian, call it whatever, but the religion’s imprint on your society is there. Let’s start with Norway’s flag. There’s a big cross on it.

Regretably, you are correct in the sense that Christianity has infested my country. Both my parents (thankfully) were non-Christian (non-religious, really).

It’s too bad that Christianity has had as much influence as it has.
The cross is by the way not monoplolised by Christianity, but has been around in religions thousands of years before Judeaism or Christianity. Yes, the particular cross in my flag was meant as a "Christian gesture", regretably. The religion that was forced upon us with extreme violence still exists here.

quote:the &quotolitically correct" movement of the late 1980s/early 1990s is to blame for the major conservative backlash in the following decade.

Ah yes, the whole PC movement…I see your point about how it has morphed into what we are are dealing with now. Hopefully this current "movement", like those of previous decades, too shall pass.

quote:We massively failed to to strike a balance between the respect for minorities and embrace of immigrants with the recognition for Christianity’s massive influences on American culture. Unfortunately, we have drawn an impenetrable line between the two, and as a result, we now have a population dividing into two extremes. This is now creating an environment in which religious funamentalism thrives. And no one has caught on yet.

All the more reason to send young Americans out into the world with an overseas plane ticket and a slap on the ass. "Go experience other cultures and religions…and try to stay respectable and somewhat sober while you’re at it!" (and yes, not all young Americans are annoying drunks, but I’ve met quite a few on my travels who were…my added grain of salt).

quote:BTW, you wrote that "all believe in God". This is wrong. Who is "God"? You mean the Christian god? Buddhists, Sikhs and Thaoists do not believe in a god at all, neither do atheists and agnostics. Asatruar, Sedtruar etc., Hindus, panists, romanists etc. believe in several gods, Wiccans and animists believe there are no gods, but only spirits/a divine power.

Oops, I have to be more careful with my spellchecker…It was supposed to read "Believe it or not, NOT all people believe in God." My checker found a repeated word and I accidentally deleted the second NOT. So, yes I agree with you! In fact I thought a possible solution to Bush’s "God bless you" would be "May your God/s bless you" but I don’t see a change in that anytime soon…at least until 2008. Anyway, leaving religion out of the polital ring would be the best solution.

quote:The gentleman you refer to, mr. Egeland – who happens to be a countryman of mine – did indeed not point a finger at any particular country and call that country stingy. I read an article by the neo-con Ann Coulter, who claimed that mr. Egeland had singled out the US as stingy in his address, so I wrote an e-mail and pointed out this obvious distortion of facts to her. She has yet to answer me. Gee, I wonder why…

Hmmm, yes wonder why. I saw the initial live interview with Mr. Englund and I noted that he did say "Western Countries" and at the same time thought that many Americans would think he was pointing a direct finger at us. When I heard later that people were upset at his comments and then Colin Powell realeased a statement defending the US saying we weren’t stingy, I just thought "Don’t you people listen!?" ~Amy

why makes the fact that my grandparents were Christian (both sets a different flavour, actually) make me Christian? I’ve never been to church, public schools only, no religious upbringing at all. Yet you would catagorise me as Christian?

I’m not. I do not wish to be counted as such.

If you have true seperation of church and state then for every time someone refers to God, this should be replacable by Vishnu/Allah/Yahweh/Brahman/Waheguru or any other god. For every religious statue erected (except on church grounds) it should be replaceable by a symbol of another religion.

quote:
why makes the fact that my grandparents were Christian (both sets a different flavour, actually) make me Christian? I’ve never been to church, public schools only, no religious upbringing at all. Yet you would catagorise me as Christian?

I’m not. I do not wish to be counted as such.

If you have true seperation of church and state then for every time someone refers to God, this should be replacable by Vishnu/Allah/Yahweh/Brahman/Waheguru or any other god. For every religious statue erected (except on church grounds) it should be replaceable by a symbol of another religion.

Aren’t yahweh and allah just different names for the same god. Muslims pray to the same god as christians and yahweh is the sacred jewish name.

quote:
why makes the fact that my grandparents were Christian (both sets a different flavour, actually) make me Christian? I’ve never been to church, public schools only, no religious upbringing at all. Yet you would catagorise me as Christian?

I’m not. I do not wish to be counted as such.

If you have true seperation of church and state then for every time someone refers to God, this should be replacable by Vishnu/Allah/Yahweh/Brahman/Waheguru or any other god. For every religious statue erected (except on church grounds) it should be replaceable by a symbol of another religion.

Aren’t yahweh and allah just different names for the same god. Muslims pray to the same god as christians and yahweh is the sacred jewish name.

muslims usually say they are the same, christians usually say they arent.

quote:All the more reason to send young Americans out into the world with an overseas plane ticket and a slap on the ass. "Go experience other cultures and religions…and try to stay respectable and somewhat sober while you’re at it!"

Oh, by all means, AmyMN, yes. But it all starts at home. Americans need to recognize first that their own customs, beliefs, worldviews, and ways of life are what make up a unique culture, and are not the unversal norm nor the absolute truth; it’s just one way of living. Recognition of one’s own culture will help someone respect other cultures.

quote: why makes the fact that my grandparents were Christian (both sets a different flavour, actually) make me Christian? I’ve never been to church, public schools only, no religious upbringing at all. Yet you would catagorise me as Christian?

I’m not. I do not wish to be counted as such.

Aw geez, who cares?! Y’all have entirely missed the point.

quote:

quote:Aren’t yahweh and allah just different names for the same god. Muslims pray to the same god as christians and yahweh is the sacred jewish name.

muslims usually say they are the same, christians usually say they arent.

That’s because many Christians (if not most) know nothing or very little about Islam. Islam has the same roots as Christianity and Judaism.

quote:If you have true seperation of church and state then for every time someone refers to God, this should be replacable by Vishnu/Allah/Yahweh/Brahman/Waheguru or any other god. For every religious statue erected (except on church grounds) it should be replaceable by a symbol of another religion.

Actually, in a true separation of church and state, they would eliminate the word "God" altogether, rather than having it symbolize all these different faiths. Inclusion of the word "God" in various aspects of US government and legal matters (currency, Pledge of Allegience, etc) is rooted in Christianity’s influence on American culture/history.

quote:Since it appears that many Americans wear their religion on their sleeve (and I am not disagreeing with this) I am wondering what other Americans think of our Government always referring to "God". Does this bother you? What do Europeans think of this practice? Do your governments do this as well?

Elected officials do not mention "God" in Europe, even in countries that are not officially secular. It’ll give the impression that the politician is trying desperately to gain aproval for something, and will be viewed deeply with suspicion. I agree with this. I’m suspicious of politicians who say "God."

It’s too bad that Christianity has had as much influence as it has.
The cross is by the way not monoplolised by Christianity, but has been around in religions thousands of years before Judeaism or Christianity. Yes, the particular cross in my flag was meant as a "Christian gesture", regretably. The religion that was forced upon us with extreme violence still exists here.

FromNorway,

Why do you regret it? Your country’s history is history, and you have to accept your country for all it is, and all that have influenced it. You don’t have to be a Christian to accept the religion’s influence on your society and its history. You seem to have this bitterness towards Christianity which was "forced" on your country…was the previous human-sacrificing, slave-trading Viking system any better? I think you are dwelling way too much on history. I think that all the world’s religions and belief systems are fascinating. True, there have been many wars in the name of religion (but we can easily argue that religion was not the cause of these wars, rather it was an excuse to go to war), but now in most countries we’re lucky to live in an era when we can apreciate all the world’s cultures, religions, and historical events, without needing to go to war over it. Cultural differences are what make this diverse world fascinating. If all religion and culture were to come to an abrupt end…if the Chinese stopped celebrating Chinese New Years with colorful dragon parades, floating lanterns, and fireworks…if Mexicans stopped observing Day of the Dead (with its yes pre-Christian origins)…if Christians (and non-Christians) stopped celebrating Christmas…it would be a very boring world.

Why do you regret it? Your country’s history is history, and you have to accept your country for all it is, and all that have influenced it. You don’t have to be a Christian to accept the religion’s influence on your society and its history. You seem to have this bitterness towards Christianity which was "forced" on your country…was the previous human-sacrificing, slave-trading Viking system any better? I think you are dwelling way too much on history. I think that all the world’s religions and belief systems are fascinating. True, there have been many wars in the name of religion (but we can easily argue that religion was not the cause of these wars, rather it was an excuse to go to war), but now in most countries we’re lucky to live in an era when we can apreciate all the world’s cultures, religions, and historical events, without needing to go to war over it. Cultural differences are what make this diverse world fascinating. If all religion and culture were to come to an abrupt end…if the Chinese stopped celebrating Chinese New Years with colorful dragon parades, floating lanterns, and fireworks…if Mexicans stopped observing Day of the Dead (with its yes pre-Christian origins)…if Christians (and non-Christians) stopped celebrating Christmas…it would be a very boring world.

Christianity was not "forced" on my country it was FORCED on my country! Read my country’s history (not the Christian revisionist version that celebrates a brutal murderer). One of our kings forced our people to convert to Christianity through decapitations and and extreme torture, like the "blood eagle" (cutting up the stomach and tearing out the intestines, creating "wings" of intestines).

The Vikings (that’s one of the most abused/misunderstood words in history) were a tiny minority of the Norse populace. 1 to 5% of the population back then were marauding thugs. And for your information, Southern-Denmark was in the mid 500’s attacked by Christians, where 4,500 women and children were slaughtred in cold blood, simply because they were "damn heathens". Thus, the people of Scandinavia formed military branches of their society. Contrary to beliefs, though, "Viking" does NOT mean &quotirate", and Vikings were NOT exclusively warriors or thugs, but they also consisted of peaceful businssmen and explorers. Violence was NOT in fact an inherent or common "theme" in Norse societies. Indeed, it was probably much less so than in many Christian societies. How else do you explain that Norsemen who’ve traded (at least!) since the 3rd century, only are mentioned as marauders/killers in 793? Why were they mentioned this way only AFTER the Christian slaughter in Southern-Denmark??

The Norse, just like the Satanists and Wiccans, are some of the most misunderstood people in history, their culture/traditions distrorted for politics and hatred (Hitler) as well as for historical/religious purposes (by museums/historians/clerics).

quote:
Oops, I have to be more careful with my spellchecker…It was supposed to read "Believe it or not, NOT all people believe in God." My checker found a repeated word and I accidentally deleted the second NOT. So, yes I agree with you! In fact I thought a possible solution to Bush’s "God bless you" would be "May your God/s bless you" but I don’t see a change in that anytime soon…at least until 2008. Anyway, leaving religion out of the polital ring would be the best solution.

Oh, I understand. After writing my reply, I thought that maybe you meant to write "not" in there. All of the rest of your post was so reasonable and well-written.

quote:
Hmmm, yes wonder why. I saw the initial live interview with Mr. Englund and I noted that he did say "Western Countries" and at the same time thought that many Americans would think he was pointing a direct finger at us. When I heard later that people were upset at his comments and then Colin Powell realeased a statement defending the US saying we weren’t stingy, I just thought "Don’t you people listen!?" ~Amy

Mr. Egeland.

He’s a man who has done much good for people. He has been a doctor, I believe, and he has – with his own hands – probably saved hundreds of lives. He’s been helping people for more than 30 years.

First of all, I never said Vikings were pirates. The Vikings were a civilization. But to call them peaceful is going bit too far. I wouldn’t say they were worse than other peoples, by all means they weren’t. But they definitely weren’t any better. These &quoteaceful businessmen" you’re talking about practiced slavery and carried out brutal invasions of Britain, Ireland, Russia, Italy, Greece, France, and other lands. Their occupation/invasion of Britain and Ireland was especially long. The ancient Scandinavian peoples really weren’t any different from other ancient civilizations. Everyone did their share of invading and pillaging.

Going back to Christianity, FromNorway, you need to take it easy, man. You hold this grudge for something that happened over a thousand years ago. This thread has strayed WAY off-topic over an issue (the origins of Christmas and the Christianization of Norway) I really don’t care much for.

First of all, I never said Vikings were pirates. The Vikings were a civilization. But to call them peaceful is going bit too far. I wouldn’t say they were worse than other peoples, by all means they weren’t. But they definitely weren’t any better. These &quoteaceful businessmen" you’re talking about practiced slavery and carried out brutal invasions of Britain, Ireland, Russia, Italy, Greece, France, and other lands. Their occupation/invasion of Britain and Ireland was especially long. The ancient Scandinavian peoples really weren’t any different from other ancient civilizations. Everyone did their share of invading and pillaging.

Going back to Christianity, FromNorway, you need to take it easy, man. You hold this grudge for something that happened over a thousand years ago. This thread has strayed WAY off-topic over an issue (the origins of Christmas and the Christianization of Norway) I really don’t care much for.

Mr./miss Luv_the_Beach,

The Vikings were NOT a civilisation! They were the BRANCH of a group (actually, 3 groups) of people called the Norse. The Vikings made out about 1 to 5% of the Norse population, and "Viking" does NOT only refer to warriors! As I said, a Viking could also be a peaceful businessman. You have an erroneous perception of what the word means, and of who were Vikings. There never existed a "Viking civilisation", there have never existed "Viking ships".
The Norse societies were by-and-large peaceful societies, yes. They were probably more peaceful than the Christian societies. Nearly all people back then were farmers, some few were blacksmiths, craftsmen, businessmen, sailors, navigators, warriors, thugs etc.
The common concept that a Viking was only a warrior/thug was constructed based on limited knowledge of the Norse. Viking = either a geographical term (vik = a sound), or it means (in general!) people who travel, whether it be peaceful businessmen, explorers or warriors/thugs. Calling all Vikings warriors/thugs is like calling everyone who books a flight today a terrorist. Viking = a traveler, of any kind or degree.

As to Christianity, I merely presented the FACTS about the "christianisation" of my country. The negative effects it had then can be linked up to the negative effects it has on my country today. In short, we’d be better off without Christianity.

quote:
I like calling you ‘dude’ since I know how much it upsets you, even though you clearly don’t know what it means.

I don’t get upset. It has something to do with respect and principles. I have realised now, that you have no manners, you are not capable of showing respect, and you are rude, insultive and generally an arse. It’s Ok, I’ll stop kindly asking you to show respect.

quote:
I like calling you ‘dude’ since I know how much it upsets you, even though you clearly don’t know what it means.

I don’t get upset. It has something to do with respect and principles. I have realised now, that you have no manners, you are not capable of showing respect, and you are rude, insultive and generally an arse. It’s Ok, I’ll stop kindly asking you to show respect.

I couldn’t care less what "dude" meant…

I beg to differ, you know I piss you off. It’s not like you are the most polite person I have ever met, you are just as rude and insultive (is that a real work), I like my arse it a good one looks great in jeans, and respect that a two way street, i don’t respect you either. You are a pompous twat.

I like calling you ‘dude’ since I know how much it upsets you, even though you clearly don’t know what it means.

I don’t get upset. It has something to do with respect and principles. I have realised now, that you have no manners, you are not capable of showing respect, and you are rude, insultive and generally an arse. It’s Ok, I’ll stop kindly asking you to show respect.

I couldn’t care less what "dude" meant…

Quote:

I beg to differ, you know I piss you off. It’s not like you are the most polite person I have ever met, you are just as rude and insultive (is that a real work), I like my arse it a good one looks great in jeans, and respect that a two way street, i don’t respect you either. You are a pompous twat.

I get pissed off, I don’t get "upset".
I’m impolite with people who are impolite towards me. It’s very simple.

You are a man aren’t you? Your name is Erik. Or are you a child? In that case, you would be a boy….does "man" offend you? I don’t understand why. Feel free to call me a MAN, cause that’s what I am.

In vernacular American English younger guys address each other as "man" or "dude." If that bothers you (for whatever reason), I’ll stop.

quote:The Vikings were NOT a civilisation! They were the BRANCH of a group (actually, 3 groups) of people called the Norse. The Vikings made out about 1 to 5% of the Norse population, and "Viking" does NOT only refer to warriors! As I said, a Viking could also be a peaceful businessman. You have an erroneous perception of what the word means, and of who were Vikings. There never existed a "Viking civilisation", there have never existed "Viking ships".
The Norse societies were by-and-large peaceful societies, yes. They were probably more peaceful than the Christian societies. Nearly all people back then were farmers, some few were blacksmiths, craftsmen, businessmen, sailors, navigators, warriors, thugs etc.
The common concept that a Viking was only a warrior/thug was constructed based on limited knowledge of the Norse. Viking = either a geographical term (vik = a sound), or it means (in general!) people who travel, whether it be peaceful businessmen, explorers or warriors/thugs. Calling all Vikings warriors/thugs is like calling everyone who books a flight today a terrorist. Viking = a traveler, of any kind or degree.

I can hosnetly say that when I read up on Viking history out of curiosity some mothns ago, I may have forgotten some things by now. I used the term "Viking" to refer to all ancient Scnadinavian peoples. I guess this is incorrect. Whatever the case (and I honestly don’t care) you need to get off your high horse there and stop claiming that the Norse were the most peaceful people around. You are starting to come across as nationalistic…believing that your nation is the absolute correct/innocent one and that everyone else has wronged you throughout history. As I said, Norse tribes carried out brutal invasions of many European countries. No, I don’t blame modern-day Scandinavians, and no, I don’t blame all Norese people; I know the thugs were a minority of the populaiton, but the same can be said for any civilization. You, on the other hand, seem to hold this strong bitterness against the rest of Europe, while hypocritically downplaying the wrongs carried out by some (if not many) of your ancestors.

quote:
You are a man aren’t you? Your name is Erik. Or are you a child? In that case, you would be a boy….does "man" offend you? I don’t understand why. Feel free to call me a MAN, cause that’s what I am.

What I am or am not is of no concern to you. I have not requested for you to call me "man".

quote:
In vernacular American English younger guys address each other as "man" or "dude." If that bothers you (for whatever reason), I’ll stop.

I don’t care. I know perfectly well what "man" means, Luv_the_Beach. Don’t be condescending with me.
This is about principles.

quote:The Vikings were NOT a civilisation! They were the BRANCH of a group (actually, 3 groups) of people called the Norse. The Vikings made out about 1 to 5% of the Norse population, and "Viking" does NOT only refer to warriors! As I said, a Viking could also be a peaceful businessman. You have an erroneous perception of what the word means, and of who were Vikings. There never existed a "Viking civilisation", there have never existed "Viking ships".
The Norse societies were by-and-large peaceful societies, yes. They were probably more peaceful than the Christian societies. Nearly all people back then were farmers, some few were blacksmiths, craftsmen, businessmen, sailors, navigators, warriors, thugs etc.
The common concept that a Viking was only a warrior/thug was constructed based on limited knowledge of the Norse. Viking = either a geographical term (vik = a sound), or it means (in general!) people who travel, whether it be peaceful businessmen, explorers or warriors/thugs. Calling all Vikings warriors/thugs is like calling everyone who books a flight today a terrorist. Viking = a traveler, of any kind or degree.

quote:
I can hosnetly say that when I read up on Viking history out of curiosity some mothns ago, I may have forgotten some things by now.

There is no such thing as "Viking history".

quote:
I used the term "Viking" to refer to all ancient Scnadinavian peoples. I guess this is incorrect. Whatever the case (and I honestly don’t care) you need to get off your high horse there and stop claiming that the Norse were the most peaceful people around.

I am not on any high horse. You are twisting my words.

quote:
You are starting to come across as nationalistic…believing that your nation is the absolute correct/innocent one and that everyone else has wronged you throughout history.

First of all, you do not seem to grasp what "nationlist" means. Secondly, you are still twisting my words.

As I said, Norse tribes carried out brutal invasions of many European countries.

No, fractions of Norse tribes carried out invasions.

No, I don’t blame modern-day Scandinavians, and no, I don’t blame all Norese people; I know the thugs were a minority of the populaiton, but the same can be said for any civilization. You, on the other hand, seem to hold this strong bitterness against the rest of Europe, while hypocritically downplaying the wrongs carried out by some (if not many) of your ancestors.

hahaha wow! you guys are nuts. i just did a google search for differences between U.S. and europe and here I wound up. Ive read a lot of the first page of this topic but thats bout it i got sick of reading it….lol i just want to say a few things. Ok first of all I am an 18 year old male American and I plan to join the U.S. army this summer. As far as I’m concerned America is the best place to grow up and learn to live a moral life style. when it comes to my opinion of europe, you can devide your contenent into 2 groups: those whos ass we kicked and those whos ass we’ve saved. haha its true. europe would be nothing without the U.S. . know i dont hate europe , I’ve always wanted to go there, and man there is so much history there( I love history) and I’m going to our high school prom with a forign exchange student from germany. Its just that you guys over there dont know how we think over here like some of you are like american arent in the real world there so religious and they dont know how the real world works blah blah blah. thats not true we see the same problems u do and go though bad issues too we just dont want to dwell on the bad all the time! I mean things happen get up and over it and move on. you all sound so depressed. One thing America has that u dont i think is hope. we are always looking forward to the futre and want to make the world a better place you all over there are like we are doomed and we’ll never make it. we arnt brain washed and fed nothing but propaganda in our news either. the tsunami coverage was very good and real not happy sappy all the time, yes i saw some stories of how people got saved and had close calls but i mean is that so bad. I mean start trying to find the good in things and you will live longer…lol. everything happens for a reason wether you like it or not. well i dunno thats all i guess, if you people have any questions for people like me then ask away. Oh yeah one more thind that really bugs me about all u people like u……what do u have against guns! most people who own them would never dream of doing somthing wrong with them we just like to shoot! my old man has a cannon in the barn and its a blast to shoot! good grief anti gun is so dumb. only 1% of all guns ever made have been used to comit crime. hahaha anyways I want to set you guys straight on the isssues so please ask questions. ttyl

quote:
hahaha wow! you guys are nuts. i just did a google search for differences between U.S. and europe and here I wound up. Ive read a lot of the first page of this topic but thats bout it i got sick of reading it….lol i just want to say a few things. Ok first of all I am an 18 year old male American and I plan to join the U.S. army this summer. As far as I’m concerned America is the best place to grow up and learn to live a moral life style. when it comes to my opinion of europe, you can devide your contenent into 2 groups: those whos ass we kicked and those whos ass we’ve saved. haha its true. europe would be nothing without the U.S. . know i dont hate europe , I’ve always wanted to go there, and man there is so much history there( I love history) and I’m going to our high school prom with a forign exchange student from germany. Its just that you guys over there dont know how we think over here like some of you are like american arent in the real world there so religious and they dont know how the real world works blah blah blah. thats not true we see the same problems u do and go though bad issues too we just dont want to dwell on the bad all the time! I mean things happen get up and over it and move on. you all sound so depressed. One thing America has that u dont i think is hope. we are always looking forward to the futre and want to make the world a better place you all over there are like we are doomed and we’ll never make it. we arnt brain washed and fed nothing but propaganda in our news either. the tsunami coverage was very good and real not happy sappy all the time, yes i saw some stories of how people got saved and had close calls but i mean is that so bad. I mean start trying to find the good in things and you will live longer…lol. everything happens for a reason wether you like it or not. well i dunno thats all i guess, if you people have any questions for people like me then ask away. Oh yeah one more thind that really bugs me about all u people like u……what do u have against guns! most people who own them would never dream of doing somthing wrong with them we just like to shoot! my old man has a cannon in the barn and its a blast to shoot! good grief anti gun is so dumb. only 1% of all guns ever made have been used to comit crime. hahaha anyways I want to set you guys straight on the isssues so please ask questions. ttyl

Great, you’ve buyed into the propaganda.
The US was sitting by for nearly 3 years, doing nothing, and when you finally entered, the Soviets had you beat with their greater forces, doing most of the dirty work. Soviet had the greatest force in WW2, far outdoing you Yanks. The rest of the Allied forces also did most of the dirty work on D-Day.

The expensive loan (Marshall Plan) that was offered to certain nations was in no way the begin-all and ends-all for those nations.

Norway got it’s arse kicked big time by jerry. What did it take about 60 days and the whole country was over run, Norwegians couldn’t fight there way out of a crisp packet.

Then the bastards were horribly cruel to women who had children to Germans, the state considered these children second class. How’s this for nasty the German government gave money to the Norwegian government to care for these kids, it’s still sitting in a trust and none has ever been given to those children.

quote:
Norway got it’s arse kicked big time by jerry. What did it take about 60 days and the whole country was over run, Norwegians couldn’t fight there way out of a crisp packet.

Then the bastards were horribly cruel to women who had children to Germans, the state considered these children second class. How’s this for nasty the German government gave money to the Norwegian government to care for these kids, it’s still sitting in a trust and none has ever been given to those children.

Who the hell is "Jerry"??? Are you drunk?

We were fighting the greatest military force in the world back then, you ignorant, hateful bastard. You sheepfuckers wouldn’t last as long as we did against a force about 18 times stronger than yours. We were THE occupied country that lasted the longest against the Germans.

I wonder why they were cruel to those women back then… If your country had been invaded, 11,000 of your countrymen killed, several tens of thousands more tortured, your house burnt to the grund like thousands of others, your food stolen, your freedoms taken away from you, you would perhaps not think rationally. Don’t be so fucking arrogant. What happened to those women was wrong, but it certainly didn’t only happen in Norway, it happened in Denmark, Holland, Belgium etc. as well.

Well, first of all, we havn’t gotten much in reperations from Germany because of their unprovoked aggression against our nation and murder/torturee of our citisens, so it was about time they paid up.
Secondly, I can tell you that I’m disappointed that these people have not gotten anything through all those years. However, you have no right to look down on me or my country, your country was created through slaughtering the Maoris and stealing their land.

quote:
hahaha wow! you guys are nuts. i just did a google search for differences between U.S. and europe and here I wound up. Ive read a lot of the first page of this topic but thats bout it i got sick of reading it….lol i just want to say a few things. Ok first of all I am an 18 year old male American and I plan to join the U.S. army this summer. As far as I’m concerned America is the best place to grow up and learn to live a moral life style. when it comes to my opinion of europe, you can devide your contenent into 2 groups: those whos ass we kicked and those whos ass we’ve saved. haha its true. europe would be nothing without the U.S. . know i dont hate europe , I’ve always wanted to go there, and man there is so much history there( I love history) and I’m going to our high school prom with a forign exchange student from germany. Its just that you guys over there dont know how we think over here like some of you are like american arent in the real world there so religious and they dont know how the real world works blah blah blah. thats not true we see the same problems u do and go though bad issues too we just dont want to dwell on the bad all the time! I mean things happen get up and over it and move on. you all sound so depressed. One thing America has that u dont i think is hope. we are always looking forward to the futre and want to make the world a better place you all over there are like we are doomed and we’ll never make it. we arnt brain washed and fed nothing but propaganda in our news either. the tsunami coverage was very good and real not happy sappy all the time, yes i saw some stories of how people got saved and had close calls but i mean is that so bad. I mean start trying to find the good in things and you will live longer…lol. everything happens for a reason wether you like it or not. well i dunno thats all i guess, if you people have any questions for people like me then ask away. Oh yeah one more thind that really bugs me about all u people like u……what do u have against guns! most people who own them would never dream of doing somthing wrong with them we just like to shoot! my old man has a cannon in the barn and its a blast to shoot! good grief anti gun is so dumb. only 1% of all guns ever made have been used to comit crime. hahaha anyways I want to set you guys straight on the isssues so please ask questions. ttyl

Ah, to be 18 and ignorant again.

Oh wait, I was never THIS ignorant, not even at 18.

If you want to do something good for the image Europeans have of your country, stay where you are!

quote:
Norway got it’s arse kicked big time by jerry. What did it take about 60 days and the whole country was over run, Norwegians couldn’t fight there way out of a crisp packet.

Then the bastards were horribly cruel to women who had children to Germans, the state considered these children second class. How’s this for nasty the German government gave money to the Norwegian government to care for these kids, it’s still sitting in a trust and none has ever been given to those children.

Who the hell is "Jerry"??? Are you drunk?

We were fighting the greatest military force in the world back then, you ignorant, hateful bastard. You sheepfuckers wouldn’t last as long as we did against a force about 18 times stronger than yours. We were THE occupied country that lasted the longest against the Germans.

I wonder why they were cruel to those women back then… If your country had been invaded, 11,000 of your countrymen killed, several tens of thousands more tortured, your house burnt to the grund like thousands of others, your food stolen, your freedoms taken away from you, you would perhaps not think rationally. Don’t be so fucking arrogant. What happened to those women was wrong, but it certainly didn’t only happen in Norway, it happened in Denmark, Holland, Belgium etc. as well.

Well, first of all, we havn’t gotten much in reperations from Germany because of their unprovoked aggression against our nation and murder/torturee of our citisens, so it was about time they paid up.
Secondly, I can tell you that I’m disappointed that these people have not gotten anything through all those years. However, you have no right to look down on me or my country, your country was created through slaughtering the Maoris and stealing their land.

jerry = german everyone knows that, you are stupid aren’t you.

But the thing is Norwegian men fought like girls.

The Norwegians treated women who had fun with the germans far worse than most countries, they abused the children of these women and treated them like second class citizens, they still do. These children were excluded from schools and were taken from there parents, many left the country like Anni-frid Lyngstad.

You better read up on your own history only 10,262 Norwegians died during WW2.

We never slaughtered the Moaris, if you read anything about the Moari land wars you will discover that it wasn’t just settler v Moari it was also Maori v Maori, a lot of Maori iwi sided with the colonial government. There has never been any slaughter of Maori in NZ history, Maori have always had the right to vote, to own land, ful citizenship etc…. If you had said Australia then you’d be right the Aussies hunted Abo’s right up until the 1920’s I believe. They didn’t grant them citizenship or a vote until the late 50’s or early 60’s.