AMANPOUR: In a week filled with political drama, will John Edwards
go to jail?

Then, a slaughter in Syria, even children a target. Will the United
States call on President Assad to step down?

CLINTON: If he cannot end the violence against his own people, then
he needs to get out of the way.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Live from the Newseum in Washington, "This Week" with
Christiane Amanpour starts right now.

AMANPOUR: Welcome to the program. We'll get to the economy in just
a moment, but first, some news since your morning papers.

Protesters in Yemen are celebrating today, this after the embattled
Yemeni president Ali Abdullah Saleh left for Saudi Arabia to seek
medical treatment after being wounded in an attack on his compound on
Friday. His regime, now in danger of falling, is a key U.S. ally
against Al Qaida, which could take advantage of a leadership vacuum there.

And American and Pakistani officials are increasingly confident that
top Al Qaida leader Ilyas Kashmiri was killed in a U.S. drone attack
Friday in Pakistan. Pakistani intelligence officials say they provided
the key tip-off about his whereabouts. The operation is being seen as a
confidence-building measure between the two countries. And we'll have
more on the U.S.-Pakistan relations with Diane Sawyer, who's in
Afghanistan. We'll have that later in the program.

And this week, just as the race for the Republican nomination shifts
into high gear, the economy has dominated the headlines, and it makes
for very grim reading. High gas prices, disruptions caused by the
earthquake in Japan, and uncertainty about government debt have made the
road to recovery a rocky one.

Here's ABC's John Berman.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BERMAN (voice-over): The American road to recovery, just one month
ago speeding along with the strongest private-sector growth in five
years, until suddenly...

OBAMA: There are always going to be bumps on the road to recovery.

BERMAN: Bumps on jobs, just 54,000 new jobs added last month,
unemployment back up to 9.1 percent; bumps on manufacturing, new factory
orders fell to the lowest level in two years; bumps in housing, a double
dip in home prices all of the way down to 2002 levels. And if the
economy hit a bump, for the White House, something else hit the fan.

PALIN: When you're looking at the extremely high unemployment
numbers, still aren't coming down as fast as they should be.

ROMNEY: This is now his economy, and what he has done has failed
the American people.

ROMNEY: Well, the president has failed at getting our economy
going, and the economy is in my wheelhouse.

BERMAN (voice-over): Just what do they see? The fact that no
president since Franklin Roosevelt has been re-elected with unemployment
higher than 7.2 percent. So what can the president do? He can argue
reasonably...

OBAMA: Over the last three months alone, we've added about 750,000
private-sector jobs. Over the last 14 months, we've added more than 2
million private-sector jobs.

BERMAN: His surrogates and supporters can say...

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: We continue to be on the right track.

(UNKNOWN): We're headed in the right direction.

BERMAN: But you know what that sounds like?

GEORGE H.W. BUSH: And things are moving forward in this country.
The economy is moving forward.

BERMAN: And we know what happened to him, which is why President
Obama is always careful not to oversell, trying not to seem out of touch.

OBAMA: You know, it's like, if you had a bad illness, if you got
hit by a -- by a truck, you know, it's going to take a while for you to
mend.

BERMAN: But now it may have to mend on its own, because,
practically speaking, there isn't much left the president can do. With
the political wars over the debt, there is no chance for another
stimulus, no more bank bailouts, there are no federal jobs to offer.
And with interest rates at or near zero, the Fed can't do anything to
lower them. The president might just have to watch and hope that the
American road to recovery is merely a bumpy road and not a road to
nowhere.

For "This Week," John Berman, ABC News, Stratham, New Hampshire.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: And we're joined now by Austan Goolsbee, the chairman of
the president's Council of Economic Advisers.

Welcome back to "This Week."

GOOLSBEE: Great to see you again, Christiane.

AMANPOUR: So you've heard all that. John Berman set it up. This
Friday, this last jobs report was meant to be the acid test. What is
that telling us? Is the recovery threatened?

GOOLSBEE: Well, hold on. And I said last month when we had an
excellent jobs report, 100,000 above expectations, and I said again this
last Friday when it came in below expectations, don't -- don't make too
much of any one month's job report, because they're highly variable.
You want to look at a little bit of a trend to get a more accurate
barometer, and the overall direction is, yes, somewhat slowed from the
stiff headwinds of gas prices, of the events in Japan, of some of the
events in Europe. But overall, the last six months, we've added a
million jobs in the private sector.

AMANPOUR: Right, but every economist, including many of your
advisers and colleagues, have said that in order for this to be
sustainable, you have to actually have above 150,000 jobs per month.
And it was way below that this month.

GOOLSBEE: Well, and in the three months before that, it was well
above it. What I'm emphasizing is the -- every economist knows that the
monthly numbers are highly variable, so you want to look at a little bit
more than just one month before concluding on a trend.

AMANPOUR: So what happens if this same kind of report comes out
next month? What does that then tell you?

GOOLSBEE: Well, look, what we know is that we have moved a long way
from when the economy is in a rescue mode, the private sector's in
freefall, and the government is the only thing standing between us and
falling into another Great Depression. We were losing 780,000 jobs a
month when the president comes into office. Fast-forward to now: We've
added 1 million jobs over the last six months.

If we face stiff headwinds, that are shocks like the -- like the
Japanese earthquake, we have to deal with that, but I think the -- the
trend is relatively clear.

AMANPOUR: But what do you say to the American people when so many
economists were expecting something, according to a Bloomberg survey, of
165,000 to 170,000 to be created this month, to see the unemployment
come down a little, which it didn't? What do you say to the American
people about that? Where is the light, in other words?

GOOLSBEE: The first thing that I say is the same thing I said one
month ago when it came in the opposite, 100,000 above expectations, and
that is, let's not conclude too much of anything from one report. Let's
look at what's happened over six months.

And what has happened over six months is we've added a million jobs
in the private sector. The president has enacted -- we passed a tax
policy in December, which has come into place this year and will
continue over the course of this year, to put -- to give a payroll tax
of $1,000 plus to 150 million workers and to give direct incentives for
business to start investing. And they've accumulated money on their
balance sheet.

Our -- our effort now as a government should be to get the private
sector, to help them stand up and lead the recovery. It -- the
government is not the central driver of recovery.

AMANPOUR: Right, but, again, it is slower than expected. So,
economists are asking and people are asking, is this kind of a wake-up
call, do you think, to sort of shift the political debate from what's
been all about debt reduction and shift it back to job creation? I
mean, is this an opportunity, for instance, to try to talk about
creating jobs and adding maybe another stimulus? Let's say there was no
politics involved, in a perfect environment. What would you do to get
this off the slow burner?

GOOLSBEE: Well, I would say two or three thing. The first is, the
president has never stopped talking about jobs. For him, the growth
strategy is the number-one issue.

Now, we must live within our means. We have a moment that we can
talk about long-run deficit reduction. And the vice president's leading
an effort to do that, that the president has asked him to. But the
president is getting up every day -- on Friday, he's going out to Ohio
to talk about jobs in manufacturing, which manufacturing is having its
best employment year in almost 15 years.

AMANPOUR: And yet that came down, as well, manufacturing jobs...

GOOLSBEE: Well, durable goods manufacturing was up.

AMANPOUR: But what specifically can you do to change this?

GOOLSBEE: OK. So the -- we have shifted in the economy from a
rescue phase, which is government-directed, to a phase in which
government policies have got -- we've got to rely on government policies
that are trying to leverage the private sector and give incentives to
the private sector to be doing the growth.

And that -- so the president has started these tax cuts that will
continue over the rest of this year, has put in place this regulatory
review in which all of the major agencies are going to go through, find
any outmoded regulations, ones that are excessively costly for their
benefits, find ways to streamline.

AMANPOUR: Would there be more payroll cuts...

GOOLSBEE: The free-trade agreements...

AMANPOUR: ... tax cut holiday?

GOOLSBEE: Well, we still -- there will be more payroll tax cut over
the entire course of this year. It's more than $1,000 a worker for 150
million workers.

The free-trade agreements, trying to increase exports, which are
rising at 15 percent annual rates. The infrastructure bank that the
president has called for, which, again, is trying to leverage, using
government incentives to get private capital to enter and help grow the
economy. That -- that -- those are the things that we've got to be doing.

And I would just emphasize, the president's plan is putting us on
the right track. Over the last 15 months, we've added more than 2
million jobs in the private sector. That's far in excess of what it was
in the comparable period after the last recession.

AMANPOUR: So are you -- are you not worried -- well, I mean, a
report that's about to come out is saying that this is the longest
jobless recovery, it's going to come out this month, that'll it take
more than 60 months...

GOOLSBEE: It's not a jobless recovery.

AMANPOUR: ... of GDP recovered. It'll take until 2016.

GOOLSBEE: It's not a jobless recovery. That is an incorrect
phrase. After the last recession, in this comparable period,
post-recession, we had lost 100,000 jobs. We've added more than 2
million jobs. There's a major difference between a jobless recovery and
a very deep hole that we're climbing our way out of, and that is what --
the position we're in.

AMANPOUR: So a part of the whole that everybody is looking at right
now is the debt ceiling. Do you anticipate that this is going to be
resolved over the next -- over the next month or so...

(CROSSTALK)

GOOLSBEE: I do. I do -- I -- I definitely think it's going to be
resolved, because it has to be. The U.S. is a nation that pays its
bills, and ultimately we're not going to decide that we refuse to pay
the bills that we already have.

AMANPOUR: Are you concerned that Moody's is saying that it may look
at downgrading if certain benchmarks aren't met?

GOOLSBEE: Look, I think what Moody said is, you have to pay your
bills, and if you don't pay your bills, there are going to be
consequences. And I think everybody agrees with that.

Now, I'm relatively optimistic that -- because you've seen leaders
on both sides of the aisle saying they don't want to push this all the
way right up to the -- to the edge of the -- of Treasury's authority of
what can be done. This is not an alarm clock. It would be extremely
dangerous to get right up to the edge or -- you've seen some people even
saying, well, it'd be OK if we defaulted for a short period. That's not
true; we shouldn't do that. We should resolve this over the next month.

And when we come back, our experts weigh in on the state of the
economy and the jobs outlook.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: A disappointing jobs report has raised more questions on
the state of the economy. And so we turn now to our panel of economic
experts for their insights: Paul Krugman of the New York Times;
Chrystia Freeland of Thomson Reuters; and Martin Regalia of the U.S.
Chamber of Commerce.

Thank you all for joining me.

You just heard the president's chairman of the Council on Economic
Advisers basically making -- putting on the best face of some dismal
numbers. What do you think the American people can expect, Paul, from
now on?

KRUGMAN: The trouble is -- I mean, Austan was right to say, you
know, one month doesn't matter that much, but the fact is, for about 18
months, we've had an economy that's recovering in a technical sense, but
it's not generating jobs faster than population growth. So we've
basically been in a holding pattern, and that's likely to continue.

AMANPOUR: And does that mean, if it's not generating jobs fast
enough, that the economy is not self-sustainably growing?

KRUGMAN: Oh, I think it's self-sustainably growing. The trouble
is, it's not growing in a way that takes up the slack, right? We're
kind of in lost decade territory. This is -- you know, those of us who
studied Japan in the '90s look at this and say just -- gosh, we're
looking awfully Japanese right now.

FREELAND: I thought you asked a really great question, Christiane,
when you said, you know, is this is a jobless recovery? And Austan
really...

AMANPOUR: Well, he denied it.

FREELAND: Yeah, and he didn't like to hear that, but Paul is
absolutely right. And, you know, you need 150,000 jobs a month just to
tread water. And that's not taking into account all of those millions
of people who lost their jobs in the recession.

AMANPOUR: Well, then let me ask -- ask both of you. And let me ask
you, Martin. Obviously, the momentum has been with the debt reduction
crowd, so to speak. Is that at the expense of real, huge effort on job
creation? In other words, what's more toxic, billions of dollars of
stimulus or these kind of unemployment numbers?

REGALIA: Well, right now, we're looking at a situation where we
have a lot of noise coming into the system. And that noise detracts the
momentum. So we get an economy that doesn't grow very fast and doesn't
create the number of jobs we need.

So what you have to do is kind of strip away some of the
distractions. The leading distraction right now is the debt ceiling.
There ought to be a decision on the debt ceiling. We've had these
debates before. They come up repeatedly. We ought to pass an extension
of the debt ceiling. If it's done with spending cuts, that's great.
That's even better.

But the fact of the matter is, we have to get that done. Then we
have to make some long-term headway on where we're going with our debt
and our deficit. It's -- it's binding up the system. People are
concerned about what's going to happen to the value of the dollar,
what's going to happen to interest rates, and as long as that concern is
out there, businesses aren't going to do what they do best, which is go
out, compete, create jobs, and make everybody money.

KRUGMAN: Can I just say, I -- I agree we ought to pass the debt
ceiling fast, but the rest I just disagree. If you ask, why are
businesses not growing? Businesses aren't expanding because consumer
demand isn't there, and consumer demand isn't there because of a
combination of high consumer debt and low incomes. So what we really
need, in an ideal world -- Austan dodged that question -- but we really
need a new stimulus. We need more move from the Fed. We need -- we
need to really boot this economy up, not just sort of say, well, we're
getting our house in order and expect it to fix itself.

AMANPOUR: Is there a remote chance that that could ever happen?

FREELAND: Another stimulus?

AMANPOUR: Yeah, now.

FREELAND: It sure doesn't look like it. I mean...

REGALIA: This administration has tried to boost this economy in
fits and starts by addressing a pinpoint here and a pinpoint there. The
fact of the matter is, the economy is broad and diverse. And what this
government has to do is get out of its way. And if it gets out of its
way, the business confidence will return.

As Paul said, they're trying to meet demand. When they can meet
demand with the current labor force, they're not going to hire new
workers. When they can't, they will. So what you've got to do is get
out of the way.

And public stimulus aimed at the consumer or at business, we -- we
had a housing stimulus, we had an investment stimulus, short term,
targeted. They don't last. They have no staying power. You have to
get out of the way, let businesses do what they do.

Right now, we've got a housing crisis, an enormous housing crisis.
We've seen a tremendous deterioration in household net worth. And yet
we're delaying the process of equilibration. We're delaying the process
by which those homes get put back on to the market. That reduces
household net worth; that reduces demand.

FREELAND: So, Martin, is your view that there should just be more
upfront pain right now, kind of, you know, a shock therapy model, and,
really, you just need the economy to...

(CROSSTALK)

REGALIA: Not at all. But economies have to equilibrate before they
move forward. And if you -- we've thrown in a significant amount of
additional regulation. We've got 400 or 500 projects around this
country right now that could be started tomorrow if they were
permitted. They are not.

So we put obstacles in the way. Yes, we've been hit with temporary
headwinds like Japan. And those things will pass. And we'll actually
see a positive rebound towards the end of the year.

AMANPOUR: But how do you -- if Austan Goolsbee's central premises
is that the private sector really has to be the driver, how does one
make that happen now?

KRUGMAN: Well, I mean, the answer would be stimulus, fiscal and
monetary. It's not -- it's not the case, right? I was just looking at
the National Federation of Independent Business poll, and businesses are
asked why they're not expanding. And, yeah, some of them mentioned
government regulation, political climate. But by about 6 to 1, they say
because lousy business conditions. The demand isn't there.

You need to -- you know, we used to say pump-priming. We need
jump-starting. You need something that gets this moving, which would be
-- you know, if we -- if we suddenly had a threat of war and had a
military buildup, you'd be amazed at how fast this economy would
recover. The problem is, we can't get ourselves together to do that
without that kind of -- you know, we can't get to do it for the right
reasons instead of the wrong reasons.

AMANPOUR: Do you think it's a wake-up call right now, Chrystia?

FREELAND: Well, I think it should be. And I would really strongly
push back against this notion that business isn't investing because
government is in business's way right now. Tax rates are at Bush
levels. This notion that there's been a whole bunch of new regulation,
really, it's only been in the financial sector.

And I think that it's a little bit absurd for people to argue that
the financial industry post the financial crisis was overregulated.
Right? It was clearly under-regulated.

Interest rates are incredibly low. The interest rate on the 10-year
bond went below 3 percent. So, clearly, something is going on here
which is not about the government getting in the way of business.

And the tragedy for me that I think people do not talk about enough
is how unemployment is becoming a long-term structural part of the U.S.
economy. It's at 9 percent. The average amount of time an American
person who is unemployed has been unemployed...

KRUGMAN: It's 39 weeks.

FREELAND: ... 39 weeks, longer than at any time since 1948. Those
are lives that are...

(CROSSTALK)

REGALIA: Those are terrible numbers. And you want to get them
going again. But to sit there and say that financial services
regulation only affects -- it's like saying coronary artery disease only
affects the heart and the blood flow.

AMANPOUR: You can, I hope, continue this conversation in the green
room. Thank you very much, indeed. And stay tuned for the Sunday
funnies next. And later, rising Tea Party favorite and Republican
presidential candidate Herman Cain joins our roundtable.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: And now the Sunday funnies.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(UNKNOWN): Is she running for president?

STEWART: Hello, lame-stream media. Why? Because she's driving her
family around key primary states in a bus, with her signature, in
roughly equal size to the preamble of the Constitution? Has anyone ever
stopped to consider the possibility that Sarah Palin and her family are
driving from town to town, solving mysteries and unmasking monsters?

COLBERT: Well, the Chicken Little Democrats are so worried the U.S.
will default on its loans that they want to raise the U.S. debt
ceiling. Come on, we already raised the debt ceiling under President
Bush. That is so 2002, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2007, and twice in 2008.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: And coming up, Republican presidential candidate and Tea
Party rising star Herman Cain joins us on our roundtable as we look at
Mitt Romney's campaign rollout, the John Edwards' indictment, and the
rest of the week's politics.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARBOUR: We can't start out with the idea as the Faith and Freedom
Coalition that our candidate's got to agree with me on every single
thing. We cannot expect our candidate to be pure. Winning is about
unity.

PAWLENTY: Traditional marriage matters. And we need to tell each
other and the country that we need to keep traditional marriage elevated
on a platform. All domestic relationships are not the same as
traditional marriage. It needs to be protected.

ROMNEY: We're united in our belief in the sanctity of human life.
We're united in our belief in the importance and significance of
marriage between one man and one woman.

HUNTSMAN: I do not believe the Republican Party should focus only
on our economic life to the neglect of our human life. That is a trade
we should not make. If Republicans ignore life, the deficit we will
face is one that is much more destructive.

BACHMANN: America will not rest until we repeal Obamacare. Take it
to the bank. Cash the check. It will be done. It will not stand.

REED: In 2012, we're going to add to the majority in the House,
we're going to see a conservative majority in the U.S. Senate, and we're
going to replace Barack Obama with a president that we can be proud of.

And we're joined by our roundtable, Republican presidential
candidate and former Godfather's Pizza CEO Herman Cain; former Clinton
White House press secretary Dee Dee Myers; Mark McKinnon, co-founder of
the nonpartisan group No Labels and Republican strategist to John McCain
and George W. Bush; and ABC News senior political correspondent Jonathan
Karl.

Thank you all for joining me.

Let me ask you first, Mr. Cain...

CAIN: Yes. Yes.

AMANPOUR: ... you are rapidly rising. There's a big article about
you in the New York Times today. Are you surprised?

CAIN: We're not surprised, but we are surprised at how quickly that
the media and others are catching on, because our strategy from the
beginning has been to develop a very strong ground game. I've been
doing that ever since the beginning of the year. But we are a bit
surprised at how quickly I'm starting to show up in the top of the polls.

AMANPOUR: So let me ask all of you. And perhaps you'll weigh in,
as well. You heard Haley Barbour say unity is what we need, enemy is --
rather, purity is the enemy of unity. What is this saying then about a
conference like -- like the one we just had in Washington? Should there
be a truce on social values in order for -- for you to gather around and
actually focus on what matters to the Americans right now?

CAIN: It does not need to be a truce. You can simultaneously
address the social issues as well as the fiscal issues. And I think
that was the key message. And the other good thing is, if you look at
all of the potential Republican nominees, they are not that far apart.
And that was the unity that Haley was talking about. So I think that
would be a good thing going into the nomination process.

MCKINNON: Well, I think the interesting thing is that the fun thing
about American politics is that we often throw conventional wisdom out
the window. The Republican race is wide open. You see people like
Herman Cain catching on. I think -- I think other people are going to
get in. I think Rick Perry is going to get in this race. Nature abhors
a vacuum, and there's still a vacuum out there, and somebody's going to
come fill it on the social conservative Tea Party. That's where the
energy is. But...

AMANPOUR: You don't see the energy in Mitt Romney, who just
announced his campaign this week?

MCKINNON: In a conventional -- conventional year, he'd be the
front-runner -- well, he is the front-runner. But it's not a
conventional time. And people are looking for a nontraditional,
antiestablishment candidate, and that's not Mitt Romney.

Now, he's doing very well. He's raised a lot of money, has a great
organization, a good team, and he's going to try to muscle through it.
But I think there's going to be a lot of people up there trying to...

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: Nontraditional antiestablishment, Dee Dee. What does
that say about the Republicans and for the Democrats?

MYERS: Right. I think there's a segment of the Republican
electorate that's looking for a nontraditional candidate, and then
there's another segment of the Republican and independent electorate
that wants a traditional candidate that's going to focus on the economy
and focus on jobs. And so, you know, you see the Republican party going
through -- it's like they've been dating Mitt Romney for a couple of
years, and they keep making lists about all the things that are great
about them, but they haven't fallen in love.

KARL: I mean, you can have three places in this race, right?
There's going to be three people when you get down to it. There's going
to be Mitt Romney. There's going to be the mainstream anti-Mitt Romney
candidate. And there's going to be a Tea Party candidate.

AMANPOUR: And when Mitt Romney unveiled his -- his candidacy this
week in New Hampshire, he was basically overshadowed, wasn't he, by
Sarah Palin, Jon?

KARL: Well, he did -- this is the front page of the Union Leader,
which is, of course, the number-one newspaper in New Hampshire. The day
after Romney's announcement, Palin has the headline. You've got to
really look to find the Romney mention, story on page A-3.

But, you know, Romney -- a lot was made of the fact he took off his
tie, he took off the coat. He was outside. His people were thrilled.
The wind was blowing, so his hair got a little messed up. It's a
different optic for Mitt Romney, who was always a little too buttoned
down.

But what was more important is not how he looked, but what he said.
If you listen to him, it's all about the economy. Even at the speech at
the -- at the values forum, he was talking economy. He's not getting
into -- you know, and we played one sound bite where he mentioned the
sanctity of life. That's it. He is going to be -- this time, unlike
last time -- only about the economy.

AMANPOUR: You were laughing then. Which bit are you laughing at,
Sarah Palin's grabbing the headlines or the hair-blowing?

CAIN: No. Well, the hair-blowing was...

(CROSSTALK)

CAIN: But that just shows you how detailed Jon gets, he's focusing
on the hair. And I was also laughing about the fact that, yes, Sarah
has gained a lot of the headlines and this sort of thing.

AMANPOUR: Do you think she'll get in?

CAIN: I don't know for sure. If I had to guess, I would say no.
But I wouldn't bet on that. And the other thing that I was amused about
was, yes, he had his announcement, and a lot of people making a big deal
about, you know, the no tie and so forth. And I contrast that to two
weeks ago when I did my announcement, and we attracted 15,000 people in
the middle of the day in Atlanta's Centennial Park. So I think that's a
statement to your first question, as well.

AMANPOUR: One of the things I want you to respond to, which was in
the article today, Karl Rove, Republican strategist, and other
Republicans have dismissed Herman Cain as little more than somebody with
a great personal story. What do you say about that?

CAIN: Well, they don't know Herman Cain, number one. And, secondly...

AMANPOUR: Who is Herman Cain?

CAIN: Herman Cain is someone who has lived the American dream, and
he now wants to make sure that other generations coming behind him also
are able to live that American dream.

And Jon touched on the point. Many of the people in the mainstream,
like Karl Rove, Charles Krauthammer, I have great respect for them.
They are working off of the traditional model of great name ID before
you start out, whole lot of money, and you've held public office
before. But Herman Cain is just the reverse. But guess what's
happening? The American people aren't looking at it from the
traditional model standpoint.

MCKINNON: That's true. I mean, this is the kind of environment
where somebody like a Herman Cain can strike. You don't need money.
What you need is message. And people are looking for a spark to hit
that gasoline out there, and it will light up fast. And you can --
people can get in late. All this traditional idea about money and
having to do it early, throw it out the window. This is going to be a
different kind of election cycle.

AMANPOUR: Really?

MCKINNON: Absolutely.

AMANPOUR: You don't need money?

CAIN: You need some.

(LAUGHTER)

He didn't mean that exactly like that, OK?

(LAUGHTER)

AMANPOUR: Because the conventional wisdom is that, actually, in the
end, you get a more moderate candidate or a business-friendly
candidate. I know you're a CEO, but people who can actually fundraise.

CAIN: Yes. Yes.

MCKINNON: Mitt Romney is going to need every penny that he raises,
but it -- but it doesn't count like it used to, because there are ways
to get your message out now with the tools that we have.

KARL: Well, and we saw with Meg Whitman, I mean, money's not going
to be enough. But I'll tell you, Romney -- watch June 30th. That's the
next fundraising quarter will end. Romney will raise more money than
all the other candidates combined. What I'll be looking for is, what
does Herman Cain raise?

CAIN: Well, see, we're on -- we're on track to do -- to hit our
goals, but, see, getting back to the other point that Mark made, there
are two dynamics that have changed the political landscape, the power of
the Internet, as well as the citizens' Tea Party movement. Those
dynamics neutralizes having the most amount of money. We'll have enough
money to be competitive, but we don't have to have the most amount.

AMANPOUR: Let me switch gears for a moment, because there's been
another big story which you've all reported on this week, and that is
the indictment of John Edwards, former presidential candidate. He was
charged with six counts, including conspiracy, false statements, and
illegal campaign contributions. And here's what he had to say after he
was indicted.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

EDWARDS: There's no question that I've done wrong, and I take full
responsibility for having done wrong. And I will regret for the rest of
my life the pain and the harm that I've caused to others. But I did not
break the law, and I never, ever thought I was breaking the law.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: So I guess the question is, cad or criminal? I mean,
there are people who are saying that this indictment is very
questionable and based on very questionable legalities.

KARL: He's a great lawyer. And the statement there -- the
important part of that statement, where he said I never, ever thought I
broke the law, this is a campaign finance violation. We've never seen a
case like this prosecuted. And it requires the offender to know that he
was breaking the law.

And to think he was breaking the law, that would mean -- I mean, to
break the law here, the government's theory is that those expenditures
were actual campaign expenditures when he was taking care of his
mistress and covering this up. Was that a traditional campaign expenditure?

AMANPOUR: And so, Dee Dee...

MYERS: And -- yeah, in front of a grand jury, there is no
cross-examination. The defense doesn't get to present its side of the
case. For example, Fred Baron, Bunny Melon both paid gift taxes on the
money that they gave to him. I mean, there's clear evidence that they
were trying to comply with the law in addition to -- you know, the
prosecution says evidence that they were trying to skirt the law.

So it is a novel theory. It's going to be, I think, very tough in
court. I think there's no sympathy for John Edwards, and so going in
front of a jury is dicey, but he clearly wanted to hang on to his law
license. He sees that as his -- you know, the way he's going to support
his family going forward.

AMANPOUR: And do you think it will come to trial?

MYERS: You know, there's a lot of conflict in -- among prosecutors
who say that there's no way this is going to go to trial and that it
won't make it that far, but we don't know.

KARL: But I've talked to people close to Edwards who say, in his
mind, he thinks that if he can win this, somehow he's absolved.

MYERS: Right...

KARL: Of the larger issue.

MYERS: And he also thought -- he also thought he could be attorney
general after a lot of the scandal was revealed, so his judgment on his
own, you know, place in the story is not exactly clear. But he has a
good case, I think.

MCKINNON: He's created a new category for felonies for cads, though.

(LAUGHTER)

MYERS: Yes, but it's still not illegal to be a cad or we'd have a
lot of people in jail right now.

MCKINNON: Yes, we would.

AMANPOUR: Let me just turn to foreign policy, which raised its head
very, very high this week, with Nancy Pelosi, who you talked to, with
the troops in Afghanistan, with the Democrats trying to challenge
President Obama on the war powers, et cetera What did Nancy Pelosi say
to you about the troops?

KARL: Well, this is really -- this is going to be a showdown this
summer. She was talking about what kind of a withdrawal from
Afghanistan she and Democrats in Congress are expecting this summer,
when the president's promised it will begin. And there's been reports
that you might see 5,000 troops or so. Pelosi told me, point blank,
that is not enough. And, you know, there's a growing antiwar sentiment
in the Congress, even among Republicans. I think that this is going to
be a very closely watched announcement. And you may see revolt from the
president's out party.

CAIN: I find it very interesting that now the Democrats are putting
pressure on the president, after he made this -- he basically made the
promise that the troops are going to be out in July 2011. You don't
make those kind of statements not having all of the information. And so
now, even his own party, I find it interesting that they are now
demanding that he get more specific about when he's going to get out.
They're asking for that plan.

MYERS: And on Libya, too, I mean, there's -- I think there's a
sense of growing war fatigue in Congress, you know (inaudible) invoked
the War Powers Act.

AMANPOUR: All right. Well, Diane Sawyer is in Afghanistan, where
she's traveling with the defense secretary, Robert Gates. And I spoke
to her earlier today about this and other issues.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SAWYER: Christiane, good morning to you from Afghanistan, another
big turning point, as you know, for the United States. And we have a
question for America's leaders. The secretary of defense and the
general in charge will be talking with me here. And I've also been
talking to the forces themselves. Is America winning? And what happens
is some of America's troops begin to come home?

A related question, as you know, is the debate going on inside the
White House about all those drones firing in Pakistan. And we had a
chance on the big plane coming in to ask Secretary Gates where he stands
on the drones.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GATES: First of all, it has to be acknowledged that these drones
have played a significant role in taking a lot of Taliban leaders and
trainers off the table. The question really then becomes the role of
the drones, our relationship with Pakistan, and how this all fits
together. And I think that's the discussion that we're having.

We've gone through a difficult spell with the Pakistani government.
The reality is, we need each other. And -- and so working our way
through that is a complicated business. It is a complicated
relationship. And clearly, the drones are a piece of that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SAWYER: But again, Christiane, I'll be sitting with Secretary Gates
and with General Petraeus to talk to them about whether America is
winning, a reality check on how many troops can come home, and what's
the risk to the United States if they do.

That's it from Afghanistan for now. See you again soon. Christiane?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Thanks, Diane. And you can see more of Diane Sawyer's
report from Afghanistan on "World News" this evening and on Monday and
all the time on abcnews.com.

And coming up, the collapse of control in Yemen could be bad news
for the U.S. fight against Al Qaida. Another worry for the U.S. is
Syria, which has killed hundreds in a brutal crackdown and is now
targeting children. So will the U.S. push for regime change there?
More on that when we return.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: The United States is caught in a bind over Syria and
whether to call for regime change there. For more than four decades,
the Assad family has ruled Syria with ruthless determination. With the
Arab uprising sweeping through the entire region and now threatening to
topple the Syrian regime, which is fighting back hard, even using tanks
and guns against protesters, including the very young.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR (voice-over): Of the more than 1,000 people killed in
nearly three months of anti-government protests throughout Syria, it is
the violence against the children which is the most appalling, and none
more haunting than this 13-year-old boy, Hamza Ali al-Khateeb.

This week, pictures of his battered and mutilated corpse appeared on
the Internet. Activists say that he was tortured and murdered by
security forces before his eviscerated body was returned to his family.
His image has galvanized opposition to the rule of President Bashar Assad.

As in so many of these cases, the Syrian government resorted to
friendly state television and brought on a man they identified as
Hamza's father, saying that he had met with President Assad, who was,
quote, "deeply affected" by his son's death.

But on Friday, some of the largest protests yet to honor Hamza and
the other dead children were held across Syria. Security forces
nonetheless fired into the crowds again, and according to the
opposition, dozens of civilians were killed. It was in this very city,
Hama, that the president's father, Hafez Assad, killed more than 10,000
people, brutally suppressing an uprising 30 years ago.

The unrest in Syria began in the town of Daraa in March. It was
triggered by the arrest of a few teenagers who were charged with
spraying anti-regime graffiti on the walls and allegations that their
fingernails were ripped out and other torture led to the uprising.

Foreign journalists have been banned, as more than 10,000 protesters
have been arrested. But human rights reports and a steady flow of
amateur video have been posted on YouTube by an underground network of
activists. Countries in the region have been reluctant to criticize
President Bashar Assad, but neighboring Jordan's King Abdullah told me
that Assad is firmly in charge.

ABDULLAH: From my discussions with him and from what I hear, he is
in charge, yes, and he is calling the shots.

AMANPOUR: As the Assad regime strikes out by cutting power and
phone lines to other troubled towns and cities, the president himself is
making some concessions, releasing some political prisoners and
declaring a general amnesty. But exiled opponents meeting in Turkey
this week reject these as token gestures. Radwan Ziadeh is one of the
dissident organizers.

ZIADEH: We asked directly for Assad to step down and to give the
power to his -- to his vice president.

AMANPOUR: The United States has still not called explicitly for
Assad to step down, but as the violence continues to spiral out of
control, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton hinted this week that the
death of 13-year-old Hamza could be a watershed moment.

CLINTON: President Obama said it very clearly. If he cannot end
the violence against his own people, take meaningful steps to start a
process of reform, then he needs to get out of the way.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Joining me now is Marwan Muasher, who has served as
Jordan's foreign minister and deputy prime minister, and is now based
here in Washington at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.

Welcome to "This Week." You heard what Secretary of State Hillary
Clinton said. They're inching towards saying that he's lost
legitimacy. Should they say that now? Should they call for him to step
down, Assad?

MUASHER: The United States is basically saying it even implicitly,
I mean, either implement reforms or step out of the way. This is a
minority regime that has no interest in opening up the system, because
they know that, if they do, they will be out of power. So the implicit,
really, message is that the regime's days, I think, are numbered.

AMANPOUR: Why not make it explicit? They did in Libya; they did in
Egypt; they have done elsewhere.

MUASHER: There's a big concern of the alternative. They don't
know, you know, who are they going to deal with? There's a concern that
the Muslim Brotherhood will come to power, and that explains part of the
reluctance. The opposition, as you said, met in Turkey and, in fact,
actually came up with a very strong message that they want a secular,
pluralistic Syria in which religion plays no role. I think that was a
very surprising, but welcome message.

AMANPOUR: Considering the Muslim Brotherhood was at that meeting,
as well?

MUASHER: And was very heavily represented at the meeting.

AMANPOUR: So you don't think that there's a threat -- like many
people in the region believe that the Muslim Brotherhood could fall into
any of the vacuums in any of these countries we're seeing.

MUASHER: The Muslim Brotherhood has been used for a long time as a
scare tactic. This is not to say that they don't have designs, but I
think that in closed systems, protest votes will only go to the
Brotherhood. In pluralistic, open systems, the Brotherhood will have to
compete against many other alternatives. And I think that is the way
that all Arab countries should go to.

AMANPOUR: Now, you have met Bashar Assad when you were foreign
minister. Many called him a reformer; many thought that he would have
high hopes. The U.S. administration has been trying to woo the Syrians
back into the sort of league of nations, if you like. What is it about
him that's turned him this way? Why is he doing this? Or was he always
going to do that to hold onto power?

MUASHER: Well, he's been in power for 11 years. So he's had a
chance to really put his people in power and to be able to implement
reforms. The fact that he has not done so either suggests that he does
not intend to do so or suggests that he has a system around him which,
as I said, has no interest in opening up a system and putting its own
neck on the line. Whatever the case, I think today the end result is
the same.

AMANPOUR: Is he history? I mean, can he hold on?

MUASHER: I don't think so. I think any -- any regime that
basically turns around -- against its own people really loses whatever
legitimacy they have. It's going to be bloody, and it's going to be
long. I don't think that the regime is in, you know, danger of falling
out tomorrow, but I think that we have reached a no-return point.

AMANPOUR: A very, very important country for the United States and
the region is Yemen. We've just seen the president being forced out
because of an injury, apparently. He's handed over control. Do you
think that's the end of Saleh? Will he come back?

MUASHER: It's probably the end of Saleh. I mean, it's difficult to
tell, but I think that this is probably a diplomatic exit.

AMANPOUR: And the U.S. has been trying to get him out
diplomatically for months, and yet -- and yet this is the most important
country in terms of fighting Al Qaida. What will it mean for the fight
against Al Qaida?

MUASHER: Well, Yemen, we must understand, is a problem country for
some time, even before the recent uprisings. They've had the problem
with the north, with the Houthis. They have the problem with the
South. They have a problem with Al Qaida. All these were problems that
were present in Yemen long before the uprising took place.

So whoever really replaces Ali Abdullah Saleh will still have to
deal with Al Qaida problem. But I also don't think that the problem
with Al Qaida, you know, is linked to one person only. This is a
problem that Yemen is interested in. And whatever regime comes to
power, in my view, will also have an interest in fighting Al Qaida just
as much as Ali Abdullah Saleh.

AMANPOUR: So you think so, whoever comes to power? Of course, the
U.S. has poured in billions of dollars and a lot of attention into --
into Yemen. So there's a huge investment there. You think whatever
replaces Saleh will be committed to fighting Al Qaida, as well?

MUASHER: I think so. Let's remember that Yemen, under any new
regime, will need a huge influx of funds. Probably that will come from
the United States, from Saudi Arabia, and maybe others. Otherwise, it
is facing an economic meltdown. So whoever comes to power is not going
to be stupid and I don't think will risk the interests of Yemen in
fighting Al Qaida and in putting together, you know, a country back.

AMANPOUR: Looking across the region, you see Egypt, Tunisia, Libya,
obviously, all pretty different. How do you see it all playing out?

MUASHER: This is -- let's remember, this is an uprising that just
started. I think it will be measured in decades, rather than months and
years. We are not going to see the same reaction in each Arab country.
You do have Arab countries with different degrees of legitimacy, and
some with more time than others.

I think the key question is, for those who do have time and that who
do enjoy legitimacy, is to invest that time in a serious, comprehensive,
inclusive and measurable reform process than -- rather than, you know,
continuing the reform rhetoric that we have seen in many Arab
countries. If they do invest that time in such a process, they have
every chance to succeed.

AMANPOUR: All right. Marwan Muasher, thank you so much for joining
us. And we'll be watching to see whether those new democracies will be
pro-Western, pro-American, as well.

MUASHER: Absolutely.

AMANPOUR: And up next, we remember a former secretary of state and
two stars of the small screen.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: Now, "In Memoriam."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

EAGLEBURGER: What we need in the entire war on terrorism is as much
cooperation from other allies and friends as we can get.

KEVORKIAN: I will continue to assist humans to alleviate their
agony and interminable suffering.

TAYLOR: You certainly took your time, but it was worth it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: We remember all of those who died in war this week. The
Pentagon released the names of 14 servicemembers killed in Afghanistan.
We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: Tomorrow morning on "Good Morning America," be sure to
watch an exclusive interview with the former Pennsylvania senator, Rick
Santorum, who will announce his run for the presidency.

That's it for our program today. For all of us here in Washington,
thank you for watching. And you can follow me all week on Twitter and
at abcnews.com, and be sure to watch "World News" with David Muir later
tonight. We'll see you next week.