Norma;Both durum and semolina flours are typically, but not always milled from durum wheat. Their main application is in the production of pasta. Durum flour is indeed of a finer consistency than semolina flour which is milled differently than durum flour and has a coarser texture (larger particle size). The gluten from durum wheat is somewhat different from the gluten of regular hard red spring and winter wheat varieties in that it is much more elastic/tight. If you buy pasta made using a durum wheat flour and one made from a hard wheat flour you will readily see the difference as the pasta made from the hard wheat flour has a softer, slightly gummy texture, while that made from the durum wheat has a firm texture. By the way, you can readily tell the two apart at the supermarket without even needing to read the label, the durum wheat pasta will be a light creamy, almost yellow color, while that made from a hard red wheat flour will have a dark, almost dirty/dingy color. It typically sells for a lower price too.It looks like you have access to General Mills Flours. Here are some typical protein numbers that might be of interest to you for the GM flours.Rex Royal: 12.4%; Washburn's: 12.6%; Full Strength: 12.6%; Superlative: 12.6%; Hi Power: 13%; Remarkable: 13.6%; All Trumps: 14.2%; WINTER WHEAT FLOURS: King Wheat: 11.1%; Doughbuilder: 11.1%;GM-44: 11.1%; Pollyanna (Untreated) 10.5%; Harvest King: 12%; Ben Hur (Unbleached) 12%; Semolina #1 (Enriched): 12.2%; Extra Fancy Durum: 12.2%

Norma;Both durum and semolina flours are typically, but not always milled from durum wheat. Their main application is in the production of pasta. Durum flour is indeed of a finer consistency than semolina flour which is milled differently than durum flour and has a coarser texture (larger particle size). The gluten from durum wheat is somewhat different from the gluten of regular hard red spring and winter wheat varieties in that it is much more elastic/tight. If you buy pasta made using a durum wheat flour and one made from a hard wheat flour you will readily see the difference as the pasta made from the hard wheat flour has a softer, slightly gummy texture, while that made from the durum wheat has a firm texture. By the way, you can readily tell the two apart at the supermarket without even needing to read the label, the durum wheat pasta will be a light creamy, almost yellow color, while that made from a hard red wheat flour will have a dark, almost dirty/dingy color. It typically sells for a lower price too.It looks like you have access to General Mills Flours. Here are some typical protein numbers that might be of interest to you for the GM flours.Rex Royal: 12.4%; Washburn's: 12.6%; Full Strength: 12.6%; Superlative: 12.6%; Hi Power: 13%; Remarkable: 13.6%; All Trumps: 14.2%; WINTER WHEAT FLOURS: King Wheat: 11.1%; Doughbuilder: 11.1%;GM-44: 11.1%; Pollyanna (Untreated) 10.5%; Harvest King: 12%; Ben Hur (Unbleached) 12%; Semolina #1 (Enriched): 12.2%; Extra Fancy Durum: 12.2%

Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Tom,

Thanks for explaining that the gluten from durum wheat is somewhat different than the gluten of regular hard red spring and winter wheat varieties in that it is much more elastic/tight. I guess that was why my dough balls didnít seem right, in that I probably didnít mix the dough right and let it become hydrated enough when using the different percentages of durum flour. Thanks also for explaining how anyone can tell the two apart at the supermarket without needing to read the label.

I do have access to some General Mills Flours at C.O. Nolt & Sons, Inc. http://www.conolt.com/categories.asp?ID=1 The GM flours that I have access to are listed in that link. Thanks for listing the protein numbers for the different GM flours. If you had access to the different flours at C.O. Nolt & Sons which one would you pick for a NY style dough? I would just like your opinion on which one might be best. Do you have any favorite formulation for a NY style dough?

Both durum and semolina flours are typically, but not always milled from durum wheat.

Tom,

When you talk about semolina in your posts that I have read over at the PMQ Think Tank, are you referring to what is commonly sold as semolina as opposed to durum wheat flour? I saw both products side by side at an Italian market recently and the semolina flour was clearly yellower than the durum wheat flour. When I used 15% semolina flour (such as I saw in the Italian market) in a flour blend with white flour, I increased the formula hydration by about 1% and did not experience anywhere the types of problems with hydration that Norma experienced and described when she used durum wheat flour as part of her flour blend. I assume from what Norma reported she should have used considerably more water when using durum wheat flour than what one might need for semolina flour. Is that correct and, if so, how should Norma have calculated how much more water she would need for her flour blend?

Bromated and bleached is my choice. Have you tried AllTrumps? After trying many brands this is my favorite. Attached is a yummy AllTrumps crust.

franko9752,

I did try All Trumps flour different times and other bromated flours like Pillsbury Balancer and Kyrol. I did like All Trumps a lot, but wanted to get away from bromated flours. I then starting using KASL, and now am back to bromated flours. I guess I am confused on what I really want to do and what will make the best NY style pizza.

I am not sure how fresh the durum flour was I used in my last two doughs. The durum flour wasnít kept in a plastic bag. I am not sure if that might have been why I had the problems with my two doughs or not. It was just in a brown bag from Bova Foods, until recently when I put the durum flour in two plastic bags. I purchased the durum flour back on July 7, 2011 at Reply 55 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10141.msg145736.html#msg145736

Peter;Due to the significantly larger particle size for the semolina flour, its rate of hydration is a lot slower than that of the more finely milled durum flour. Semolina flour acts a lot more like whole-wheat flour in that it requires a longer time to fully hydrate. Failure to fully hydrate the dough will result in a very tight, elastic dough that can be difficult to work with.Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

I made a test 5 dough ball batch today with the formulation below, using GM Full Strength flour for tomorrow. The dough felt about the same when using other flours and the mix time was the same. For this test batch I am making 16" pizzas.

The pizzas made with the GM Full Strength flour turned out okay and tasted good, but not as good as the pizzas made with the high-gluten flour. The pizzas made with the Full Strength flour did brown nicely on the bottom crusts.

First two pictures are of pizzas made with high-gluten flour and set second set of pictures are of two pizzas made with GM Full Strength flour. I didnít have time to try out the other 3 doughs balls made with the GM Full Strength flour so I froze them.

I know you love to experiment and please don't stop. I think you should stay with your 1 day ferment Lehmann recipe that seemed to work fine for you (I would suggest Alltrumps though) and perfect that for market. Tweak it here and there to know it well and how to change it for the diff seasons and temps in the weather. I think it would be a good workhorse for market and you also could make and experiment with specialty pies too to utilize your experimental urges Really looking foreward to a fieldtrip to the Market soon, we had about 9" of snow here in the hills of Pa. yesterday so maybe in 3 or 4 weeks i will pop in to try your great looking pies

I know you love to experiment and please don't stop. I think you should stay with your 1 day ferment Lehmann recipe that seemed to work fine for you (I would suggest Alltrumps though) and perfect that for market. Tweak it here and there to know it well and how to change it for the diff seasons and temps in the weather. I think it would be a good workhorse for market and you also could make and experiment with specialty pies too to utilize your experimental urges Really looking foreward to a fieldtrip to the Market soon, we had about 9" of snow here in the hills of Pa. yesterday so maybe in 3 or 4 weeks i will pop in to try your great looking pies

franko9752,

As always, I am not sure if I will stay with the one day cold ferment of the Lehmann dough. I might purchase some All Trumps again in the coming weeks to give it a try.

The pies I made yesterday with the GM Full Strength did have a soft crumb and good bottom crust browning, but not enough oven spring or rim coloration for me. I liked the different crumb.

Will be looking forward to meeting you. We had cold weather in our area, but luckily no snow, only a few balls of sleet.

All Trumps is a very good flour for your application, no question. They (interestingly) do sell an unbleached, unbromated version IIRC.

What you found using the lower (comparatively) protein flour recently is why I prefer it to HG -- it makes for a more tender crumb. If you want more oven spring use it when the dough is a little tighter/earlier and/or use a slightly more active preferment.

Have you, in your experiments for a market dough, used any whole wheat or potato flour in your formula? I have been playing with some "kitchen sink" doughs lately and have come away with a renewed appreciation of the unique characteristics potato flour brings to the table. Whole wheat, in small quantities, adds a nice nuttiness and durum adds a wonderful aroma and creamy tint. Been fiddling with other flours too but don't want to get too off topic.

All Trumps is a very good flour for your application, no question. They (interestingly) do sell an unbleached, unbromated version IIRC.

What you found using the lower (comparatively) protein flour recently is why I prefer it to HG -- it makes for a more tender crumb. If you want more oven spring use it when the dough is a little tighter/earlier and/or use a slightly more active preferment.

Have you, in your experiments for a market dough, used any whole wheat or potato flour in your formula? I have been playing with some "kitchen sink" doughs lately and have come away with a renewed appreciation of the unique characteristics potato flour brings to the table. Whole wheat, in small quantities, adds a nice nuttiness and durum adds a wonderful aroma and creamy tint. Been fiddling with other flours too but don't want to get too off topic.

John,

I have used All Trumps before, but not for a long while in making a NY style pizza. My distributor does sell All Trumps, but not the unbleached, unbromated version. I would have to go to Harrisburg to purchase the unbleached, unbromated All Trumps.

Interesting that you found the lower protein flour gives a more tender crumb. I donít know what you mean by if I want more oven spring to use it when the dough is a little tighter/earlier and/or use a slightly more active preferment. Whatever I try has to be fairly easy and be able to be used though out a whole day in all kinds of temperatures. Could you explain what you mean for me to try?

I havenít tried whole wheat or potato flour in a formula for market. For experiments I can try anything, but for market doughs I try to keep the price down as much as I can. Can you explain what potato flour does to the final pizza? I have tried to sell the MM clone dough at market, and although it is good, hardly any customers seem to be interested in that pizza. It does look like a whole wheat dough, but really isnít.

When I mentioned using the dough when it is tighter and/or using a larger preferment to get better oven spring what I mean is exactly that -- a tighter dough ball (one that is less relaxed and/or fermented) will generally give you better spring (it won't pancake out) as will having a dough with more active yeast, which a larger or more active preferment would accomplish.

Where I think a little potato flour might be very valuable for a commercial pizza operator is that it helps retain moisture and maintain tenderness/keeps a pie from firming up too much post bake. It increases the window of saleability/lifespan of a pie or slice. There are some Roman style pizza places in NYC that use a little potato flour as a result of its positive characteristics.

When I mentioned using the dough when it is tighter and/or using a larger preferment to get better oven spring what I mean is exactly that -- a tighter dough ball (one that is less relaxed and/or fermented) will generally give you better spring (it won't pancake out) as will having a dough with more active yeast, which a larger or more active preferment would accomplish.

Where I think a little potato flour might be very valuable for a commercial pizza operator is that it helps retain moisture and maintain tenderness/keeps a pie from firming up too much post bake. It increases the window of saleability/lifespan of a pie or slice. There are some Roman style pizza places in NYC that use a little potato flour as a result of its positive characteristics.

John,

Thanks for explaining what you meant when you mentioned using the dough when it is tighter and/or using a larger preferment to get better oven spring. I understand now. When I was using the preferment Lehmann dough for market it did have a pretty large part of the final dough for a preferment and that did work well, but I would like to try and get away from using a preferment if I can. To do another preferment with another kind of flour can be time consuming if I tried different amounts of preferment with a different flour. I am not sure what amount of preferment to try out first and then when preferments are made in larger batches they can act differently than when making a smaller batch of preferment. I think I do ball might dough balls tight, but maybe not as tight as you do.

I didnít know a little potato flour might be valuable to help retain moisture and maintain tenderness/or it also helps to increase the window of saleability of a pie or slice. You are always teaching me something new. I donít even know where to purchase some potato flour. I appreciate all the help you have been giving me!

I wasnít sure how to go about the next attempt for a dough at market trying the GM Full Strength flour. I decided to try a preferment again. I am not sure if I figured it out right on the preferment calculation tools for one dough ball, but used Peterís post at Reply 225 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg90226.html#msg90226 for a 1 dough ball preferment Lehmann dough, changed the TF, added sugar, and also decreased the oil some from my last regular Lehmann dough formulation, and upped the hydration to 62%. I didnít know how to add the IDY to the preferment calculating tool, so it could ferment for 3 days, but used Peterís guidelines. I am going to mix the preferment this morning, then make the final dough on Monday for a one day cold ferment. I also am trying an 18Ē pizza again.

This is a copy of my worksheet.

This is an EDIT to this post. Peter caught I had placed the wrong value for sugar in my first worksheet on the preferment dough calculation tool. I redid the worksheet. I had first placed the value of sugar at .075 %, but typed the wrong value in. I wanted to place the value of the sugar at 0.75%. The value is now corrected at 0.75%.

Thanks for explaining what you meant when you mentioned using the dough when it is tighter and/or using a larger preferment to get better oven spring. I understand now. When I was using the preferment Lehmann dough for market it did have a pretty large part of the final dough for a preferment and that did work well, but I would like to try and get away from using a preferment if I can. To do another preferment with another kind of flour can be time consuming if I tried different amounts of preferment with a different flour. I am not sure what amount of preferment to try out first and then when preferments are made in larger batches they can act differently than when making a smaller batch of preferment. I think I do ball might dough balls tight, but maybe not as tight as you do.

Norma, I am really just trying to make a simple point that if you used the dough slightly earlier (after balling and proofing) the dough will be tighter and likely have better oven spring. I am not suggesting any drastic alteration. Same with the preferment. If you were to do things the same but use a slightly lower protein flour you might benefit from the preferment either being slightly larger or more active. That is all. I said before in this thread I think you could get away with a straight dough or close to a straight dough -- the results should be similar but more easily attained. I def hope you reach this goal!

Norma, I am really just trying to make a simple point that if you used the dough slightly earlier (after balling and proofing) the dough will be tighter and likely have better oven spring. I am not suggesting any drastic alteration. Same with the preferment. If you were to do things the same but use a slightly lower protein flour you might benefit from the preferment either being slightly larger or more active. That is all. I said before in this thread I think you could get away with a straight dough or close to a straight dough -- the results should be similar but more easily attained. I def hope you reach this goal!

John,

I was only doing a one day cold ferment for a little while. I donít know how I would use the dough balls over a period of a whole day (12 hrs.) slightly earlier. They are proofing in the fridge all day long. Maybe I am misunderstanding your post. I mix the dough on a Monday and ball the dough balls right after the mix, then they all are cold fermented for about a day. If I use the preferment method I have to make the preferment on a Friday and have it slowly ferment for 3 days before making the final dough. I canít get into market over the weekend. That is one reason there are problems with trying different doughs.

If I go with a straight dough I donít think I have the right formulation for using GM Full Strength flour. I also have to play around with that.

Thanks for saying you hope I will reach my goal. Thanks also for your help.

Norma do you take a whole tray of dough out at a time or just individual dough balls? Do you allow them to warm up? What I am suggesting is that maybe you use them 20 minutes earlier or something like that. Just an idea -- a stab in the dark!

Norma do you take a whole tray of dough out at a time or just individual dough balls? Do you allow them to warm up? What I am suggesting is that maybe you use them 20 minutes earlier or something like that. Just an idea -- a stab in the dark!

John,

I only take a few dough balls out at a time. I watch how they ferment and try to not to let them ferment too much. My dough balls are stored in food safe plastic bags. If I am busy, I will take more dough balls out at a time. I do allow the dough balls to warm-up, unless I am too busy and donít time the taking out of the dough balls right. Since the temperatures at my small market stand can vary greatly (55 degrees F to 100 degrees F on market days over all the seasons) it is always a guessing game. I would like to be able to control what I do more, but never know exactly what to do. As the day progresses the dough balls do ferment more in the fridge too.

Since it is cooler in our area today, when I soon go to market to clean, the temperatures there probably will only be in the 40ís. Sometimes in the summer when I mix the dough the temperatures can be in the 90ís.