Post by Rigel on Aug 11, 2015 18:11:15 GMT -6

I love Cursed Orphan, I really do. That guitar is insane and it has all the igavania vibe. Its one of my favorite Igavania tracks now, but Yamane's track doesnt stays behind, it is amazing too. By hearing this two awesome tracks I can tell that Bloodstained OST will be epic.

Post by Togposh on Aug 11, 2015 18:47:37 GMT -6

I love Cursed Orphan, I really do. That guitar is insane and it has all the igavania vibe. Its one of my favorite Igavania tracks now, but Yamane's track doesnt stays behind, it is amazing too. By hearing this two awesome tracks I can tell that Bloodstained OST will be epic.

Post by Brainiac on Aug 20, 2015 19:23:20 GMT -6

No complaints from me. Michiru Yamane's pedigree amongst the 'vanias is pretty much a given at this point and I've not had issue with the work of Ippo Yamada or Jake "virt" Kaufman before either. The two tracks I've heard thus far both feel on-point despite the difference in style (though I'd really like to hear a track from virt as well soon).

I look forward to my complete soundtrack almost as much as the full game.

There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

Post by aindriu on Aug 25, 2015 15:37:03 GMT -6

So far, the music sounds decent enough. However, I am nervous; although Symphony of the Night had some pretty amazing music set to it, many of the later installments immediately removed me from an immersive experience thanks to the unfitting j-pop/disco/jazz compositions, namely in Portrait of Ruin. My personal favorite of Michiru Yamane is, although the midi sounds were limited, her work with Bloodlines.

Post by gunlord500 on Aug 25, 2015 17:43:30 GMT -6

Yeah, I agree with Togposh Also, Castlevania has had some jazzy/R&B influenced tracks before, like Crystal Teardrop and Opus 13, so I think Yamane, Virt, Yamada, etc. would be able to find a way to make jazz work in Bloodstained

Post by aindriu on Aug 26, 2015 0:00:00 GMT -6

Yeah, I agree with Togposh Also, Castlevania has had some jazzy/R&B influenced tracks before, like Crystal Teardrop and Opus 13, so I think Yamane, Virt, Yamada, etc. would be able to find a way to make jazz work in Bloodstained

I thought those tracks specifically were off-putting. I think there were a total of 7 songs from the Symphony of the Night soundtrack that I truly 100% liked and didn't just tolerate. I once actually turned off the sound and played Malice Mizer's "Bara no Seidou" album on repeat and it was quite a satisfying experience.

I am not trying to insult your music taste; I am actually quite fond of jazz in certain contexts, but I am legitimately trying to wrap my head around the idea of enthusiasm for this kind of music to be put in this kind of game. It just doesn't make logical sense to me.

Post by gunlord500 on Aug 26, 2015 0:09:07 GMT -6

It's fine, Andriu, I'm not offended And it's a legitimate question. The thing is, consider how eclectic Castlevania music has traditionally been. If we really wanted "period/setting appropriate pieces," the only music would be religious hymns, Baroque music, etc. etc. etc. But Castlevania has always had snazzy, poppy tunes, or metal/hard rock songs. Bloody Tears, for instance, aside from maybe the opening notes, and especially in some of its other iterations, is pretty metal/rock, and those genres didn't emerge until well after the 18th/19th century (though they did take inspiration from earlier forms).

A lot of folks like musical diversity as much as they like diversity in the game's setting. If the castle can have a coliseum (from the Roman era, not medieval or post-Renaissance periods), hanging gardens (from AoS, and hanging gardens were originally from Babylon), and other kinds of anachronistic but interesting stages, there's no reason not to expect anachronistic but interesting music as well.

Post by aindriu on Aug 26, 2015 0:28:37 GMT -6

It's fine, Andriu, I'm not offended And it's a legitimate question. The thing is, consider how eclectic Castlevania music has traditionally been. If we really wanted "period/setting appropriate pieces," the only music would be religious hymns, Baroque music, etc. etc. etc. But Castlevania has always had snazzy, poppy tunes, or metal/hard rock songs. Bloody Tears, for instance, aside from maybe the opening notes, and especially in some of its other iterations, is pretty metal/rock, and those genres didn't emerge until well after the 18th/19th century (though they did take inspiration from earlier forms).

A lot of folks like musical diversity as much as they like diversity in the game's setting. If the castle can have a coliseum (from the Roman era, not medieval or post-Renaissance periods), hanging gardens (from AoS, and hanging gardens were originally from Babylon), and other kinds of anachronistic but interesting stages, there's no reason not to expect anachronistic but interesting music as well.

Oh, I am all for musical diversity, truly. But out of all the genres out there, "jazz" isn't the thing I think of when I think of a gothic setting. Now metal I can TOTALLY see being an aspect of the musical expression; many of the chord progressions are derived from classical music, not to mention many of the themes expressed in metal music have to do with dark or gothic subject matters. There is a way to compose a piece of music to make a player feel amped without simultaneously wanting to make them thrust pelvis to a disco ball. Jazz just seems too... optimistic? Like, killing demons inside a monstrously gigantic demon castle whilst continuously facing mortal danger isn't something that I think jazz/disco/j-pop is appropriate for.

Post by gunlord500 on Aug 26, 2015 14:15:10 GMT -6

It's fine, Andriu, I'm not offended And it's a legitimate question. The thing is, consider how eclectic Castlevania music has traditionally been. If we really wanted "period/setting appropriate pieces," the only music would be religious hymns, Baroque music, etc. etc. etc. But Castlevania has always had snazzy, poppy tunes, or metal/hard rock songs. Bloody Tears, for instance, aside from maybe the opening notes, and especially in some of its other iterations, is pretty metal/rock, and those genres didn't emerge until well after the 18th/19th century (though they did take inspiration from earlier forms).

A lot of folks like musical diversity as much as they like diversity in the game's setting. If the castle can have a coliseum (from the Roman era, not medieval or post-Renaissance periods), hanging gardens (from AoS, and hanging gardens were originally from Babylon), and other kinds of anachronistic but interesting stages, there's no reason not to expect anachronistic but interesting music as well.

Oh, I am all for musical diversity, truly. But out of all the genres out there, "jazz" isn't the thing I think of when I think of a gothic setting. Now metal I can TOTALLY see being an aspect of the musical expression; many of the chord progressions are derived from classical music, not to mention many of the themes expressed in metal music have to do with dark or gothic subject matters. There is a way to compose a piece of music to make a player feel amped without simultaneously wanting to make them thrust pelvis to a disco ball. Jazz just seems too... optimistic? Like, killing demons inside a monstrously gigantic demon castle whilst continuously facing mortal danger isn't something that I think jazz/disco/j-pop is appropriate for.

Yeah, but remember there's a lot of different types of jazz out there. Just like some forms of metal are closer to classic/Baroque/Gothic forms than others (symphonic metal, for instance), there's also stuff like Gothic jazz, so I've heard. ;o

Post by aindriu on Aug 26, 2015 14:57:43 GMT -6

Oh, I am all for musical diversity, truly. But out of all the genres out there, "jazz" isn't the thing I think of when I think of a gothic setting. Now metal I can TOTALLY see being an aspect of the musical expression; many of the chord progressions are derived from classical music, not to mention many of the themes expressed in metal music have to do with dark or gothic subject matters. There is a way to compose a piece of music to make a player feel amped without simultaneously wanting to make them thrust pelvis to a disco ball. Jazz just seems too... optimistic? Like, killing demons inside a monstrously gigantic demon castle whilst continuously facing mortal danger isn't something that I think jazz/disco/j-pop is appropriate for.

Yeah, but remember there's a lot of different types of jazz out there. Just like some forms of metal are closer to classic/Baroque/Gothic forms than others (symphonic metal, for instance), there's also stuff like Gothic jazz, so I've heard. ;o

I know there's many different types of jazz. To me, the only jazz that's listenable is bebop and old timey 1920's-40's jazz, and NONE of it is gothic.

I'm not digging that link at all. It sounds like a typical church hymn/ballad set to opera vocals. Just because she looks spooky doesn't mean that her music is gothic by any stretch of the imagination.

Post by gunlord500 on Aug 26, 2015 15:57:42 GMT -6

Well, it was just the first vid on Youtube I found titled 'Gothic Jazz.' I could look for more, but the point I was making is that there's not necessarily any reason one couldn't have gothic-inspired jazz tracks, i.e compositions with Gothic or Baroque chord progressions and Jazz inspired instrumentation (like saxophones and stuff). If anybody could pull it off, I bet Yamane and the Bloodstained team could

Post by aindriu on Aug 26, 2015 16:13:30 GMT -6

The fact of the matter is that "gothic" isn't just a simple shorthand for a certain kind of fashion statement that can applied to anything. Context is everything. There are specific themes and conventions that need to be adhered to and respected in order to a thing to truly be considered gothic. The modern concept of "gothic" is derived from literature in which the macabre, dark, psychotic, evil, and depraved is all exploited for the sake of terror, thrill, melancholy, etc., and often with a slight dash of romance. The very nature is dark. The expression of these themes doesn't need to restrict itself to one type of musical genre, no, but there are certain genres or compositions that are more fitting than others based on both the composition of the individual piece as well as the lyrical content. Having said that, not every instance of classical music is intrinsically gothic either; though older instruments from what we perceive to be gothic eras are generally accepted as being an immersive way to put people in a period's context, that doesn't suddenly make Mozart's "Eine Kleine Nachtmusik" gothic. It has to have the same kinds of themes that are represented in the literature; minor keys, melancholy melodies, ominous dirges, as well as lyrics that also fit within the theme.

Jazz, from it's inception, is a musical movement that served as a means to break away from classical, academic, elite music. The goal was to put an upbeat danceable and optimistic approach to music. By that very nature alone, jazz is, without a doubt, the opposite way to express a gothic aesthetic. Even if later songs in jazz history eventually wind down and get sad and depressing by adding a few blues elements, that doesn't make it gothic either. It just makes it sad jazz. If a goth girl is making jazz music, that doesn't make it gothic jazz, it makes it jazz from a person who identifies as gothic. Sad doesn't equate to gothic. Sad only equates to gothic when in a gothic context. Having said that, that isn't to say that I don't think jazz is an exceptionally diverse and emotionally varied expression of music; I am merely saying that it isn't gothic and that to express something gothic with jazz music is like expressing something an ancient medieval viking thing with pop music; as great as the music may be in and of itself, that doesn't mean it fits well with certain concepts.

It is therefore that I say that I really hope that the $250 contribution I made to this project doesn't result in a physical copy of a soundtrack, featured in an game I helped fund, is full of displaced jazz that legitimately and understandably hindered my ability to immerse myself in certain installments of the IGAvania legacy.

Having said THAT, the two songs provided thus far are... okay. The "Theme of Bloodstained" echoes the music from Circle of the Moon, which is okay; reference to compositions made for games in the past are expected. The Midi keyboards sound a little out-of-date for a modern next-gen video game, but that's a minor complaint. All-in-all, it's not a deal-breaking experience. The second track, "Cursed Orphan" sounds more or less perfect. It sounds urgent, dire, serious, has gothic elements of a melancholy violin as well as an ominous pipe organ, church bells, and the ferocity of distorted heavy metal guitars. So far so good.

Post by gunlord500 on Aug 26, 2015 16:44:11 GMT -6

It has to have the same kinds of themes that are represented in the literature; minor keys, melancholy melodies, ominous dirges, as well as lyrics that also fit within the theme.

Well, two things in response to this: First, my choice of example may have been flawed, since I don't think most of Bloodstained's music will have lyrics. If Symphony of the Night is anything to go by, we may have an opening or ending song with lyrics, but for the most part it'll be instrumented.

Second, there's nothing inherent in the definition of jazz that prevents a jazz composition from incorporating minor keys, melancholy melodies, etc. Granted, I suspect I don't have as much formal compositional training as you do so I may end up conceding this point, but from what I've read the defining properties of jazz include things such as blue notes, syncopation, and improvisation. As far as I know, there's nothing about those things that precludes scary or ominous music.

Jazz, from it's inception, is a musical movement that served as a means to break away from classical, academic, elite music. The goal was to put an upbeat danceable and optimistic approach to music.

Now, this isn't entirely true. I would say you have a point, that jazz does have an 'anti-establishment' (so to speak) aspect to it, but not all jazz tunes are upbeat and optimistic. I can think of several that are very slow paced and contemplative--in fact, that's why jazz songs were often used in the soundtracks of noir mysteries back in the day, to sent up an atmosphere of mystery and ensconce the viewer in a shady, dangerous milieu.

I think you acknowledge that when you say,

Even if later songs in jazz history eventually wind down and get sad and depressing by adding a few blues elements, that doesn't make it gothic either. It just makes it sad jazz. If a goth girl is making jazz music, that doesn't make it gothic jazz, it makes it jazz from a person who identifies as gothic. Sad doesn't equate to gothic. Sad only equates to gothic when in a gothic context.Having said that, that isn't to say that I don't think jazz is an exceptionally diverse and emotionally varied expression of music; I am merely saying that it isn't gothic and that to express something gothic with jazz music is like expressing something an ancient medieval viking thing with pop music; as great as the music may be in and of itself, that doesn't mean it fits well with certain concepts.

But I also think it's a fair response to ask you to be a bit more specific when you talk about a "gothic context." I don't mean to be confrontational or anything; I'm genuinely curious. How do you define a 'gothic context?' For instance, why is metal appropriate for a gothic setting? You mentioned earlier it was because of the chord progression being derived from/similar to gothic or classical compositions. If that's the case, however, wouldn't a jazz composition in a minor key involving gothic/baroque/classical chord progressions be acceptable? I certainly wouldn't deny any metal/gothic similarities, but I don't see how metal is *inherently* or *necessarily* more gothic than jazz.

It is therefore that I say that I really hope that the $250 contribution I made to this project doesn't result in a physical copy of a soundtrack, featured in an game I helped fund, is full of displaced jazz that legitimately and understandably hindered my ability to immerse myself in certain installments of the IGAvania legacy.

Fair enough, though I think it may be a little early to worry about that just yet...there's no guarantee any jazz (or pop, swing, etc.) will show up in Bloodstained I wouldn't be surprised if one or two jazzy tracks showed up, but I think it's a fair bet the OST, when released, won't be full of nothing but jazz. I agree, that would be inappropriate, since diversity is a good thing in music

Having said THAT, the two songs provided thus far are... okay. The "Theme of Bloodstained" echoes the music from Circle of the Moon, which is okay; reference to compositions made for games in the past are expected. The Midi keyboards sound a little out-of-date for a modern next-gen video game, but that's a minor complaint. All-in-all, it's not a deal-breaking experience. The second track, "Cursed Orphan" sounds more or less perfect. It sounds urgent, dire, serious, has gothic elements of a melancholy violin as well as an ominous pipe organ, church bells, and the ferocity of distorted heavy metal guitars. So far so good.

Yeah, I agree with most of that. I would wager we might get a fully orchestrated or otherwise improved version of the Bloodstained Theme with something better than a Midi keyboard when the game comes out, though

Post by aindriu on Aug 27, 2015 0:59:21 GMT -6

But I also think it's a fair response to ask you to be a bit more specific when you talk about a "gothic context." I don't mean to be confrontational or anything; I'm genuinely curious. How do you define a 'gothic context?' For instance, why is metal appropriate for a gothic setting? You mentioned earlier it was because of the chord progression being derived from/similar to gothic or classical compositions. If that's the case, however, wouldn't a jazz composition in a minor key involving gothic/baroque/classical chord progressions be acceptable? I certainly wouldn't deny any metal/gothic similarities, but I don't see how metal is *inherently* or *necessarily* more gothic than jazz.

Before I begin, I want to thank you for being able to have this dialogue without immature animosity; that speaks volumes in an age where such is commonplace in internet discourse. Kudos and respect to you.

No on to my best explanation:

First, I want to clarify that when I am speaking about "gothic", I am not referring to the "goth" music subgenre featuring bands like Bauhaus, Christian Death, Sex Gang Children which evolved from post punk and eventually evolved into Deathrock and Industrial, blah blah blah. The goth scene has its own sort of rules and regulations that would just overcomplicate things in this particular discussion. When I say "gothic" I am speaking of gothic themes, unrelated to the "goth" music subculture. As an example, Cradle of Filth is a "gothic" black metal band, but not a "goth" band. Make sense?

So. What makes something inherently gothic?

As I've stated earlier, our general concept of the term "gothic" is in direct relation to the literary movement in which many early horror concepts were conceived and often blended with a slight hint of romanticism. Spirits, ghosts, demons, murders, madness, suicide, chaos, the eeriness of the woods, sorcery, satanism, are all themes that are commonplace within any given gothic narrative, but what separates the gothic from what would otherwise be just another description of "horror" is the romanticism style that was inherent throughout a specific timeframe of literary history (1760s-late 1800's).

Visually speaking, if one is attempting to make a gothic narrative or story, in a movie for example, making it a period piece set within the aforementioned timeframe is one very easy way to get the gothic context across, but it isn't inherently necessary. Beetlejuice and Nightmare Before Christmas are quite clearly gothic and are both contemporary.

Musically speaking, the best way to get something across as "gothic" in a movie or a video game would be, once again, to make reference to the music that was prevalent throughout the heyday of the gothic literary movement; baroque and classical with some opera here and there, all with compositional pieces that convey ominous occurrences, the supernatural, sadness, horror, melancholy, etc. Lots of minor keys, of course. If one were not to use classical or baroque music, one genre that is inherently ominous is metal; "the devil's music". Though metal itself is inherently ominous, it isn't necessarily inherently "gothic" just as horror itself isn't inherently "gothic". It all depends on how the song is composed. Of course, the fact that metal often uses classical compositional techniques helps quite a bit. We can comfortably call Cradle of Filth a gothic metal band because of the romanticism mixed with the horror, melancholy, and supernatural themes.

Jazz, although it can represent a various mix of emotional expressions, doesn't have any of the aforementioned gothic elements within its context. When one thinks of ominous, melancholy, or eerie jazz music, the association it has is with that of it's era, in which the concept of "gothic" was a thing of the past. "Noire" is the genre that is most affiliated with dark jazz music accompanying a narrative.

That is, more or less, what I mean when I say, "gothic context". That's the best I can do for the moment; I've got to wake up early for work in the morning and still have a few things to do before I go to bed.

Post by aindriu on Aug 27, 2015 1:03:26 GMT -6

It is therefore that I say that I really hope that the $250 contribution I made to this project doesn't result in a physical copy of a soundtrack, featured in an game I helped fund, is full of displaced jazz that legitimately and understandably hindered my ability to immerse myself in certain installments of the IGAvania legacy.

Fair enough, though I think it may be a little early to worry about that just yet...there's no guarantee any jazz (or pop, swing, etc.) will show up in Bloodstained I wouldn't be surprised if one or two jazzy tracks showed up, but I think it's a fair bet the OST, when released, won't be full of nothing but jazz. I agree, that would be inappropriate, since diversity is a good thing in music

I can totally abide with one or two jazzier songs in the same way that I did with Symphony of the Night, so that's no worry. I just hope it doesn't go the way of Portrait of Ruin is all.

Post by gunlord500 on Aug 27, 2015 3:07:22 GMT -6

Before I begin, I want to thank you for being able to have this dialogue without immature animosity; that speaks volumes in an age where such is commonplace in internet discourse. Kudos and respect to you.

*snugles Aindriu contentedly* It's what I do Thank you for being nice as well!

But anyways, to make sure I understand your position: You contend that being gothic specifically (as opposed to just general horror) means you have to combine the romanticism present in 18th to 19th century literature *along with* dread, supernatural stuff, ominous happenings, etc. present in horror fiction. As you say, the best way to do this would be to use 18th and 19th century style music as well (specifically Baroque, Classical, and maybe Opera), but then you also say that a more contemporary for that's also suitable for this purpose is Metal. You also say that Jazz is less relatable to the 18th/19th century time periods we're looking at, which is understandable, since Bloodstained also takes place in the 19th century (I think--Industrial Revolution-era Europe, right?).

However, I still question whether that makes it less appropriate than Metal for use in Bloodstained. You say "one genre that is inherently ominous is metal," but I'm not sure I agree. I can think of several metal songs which are inspiring, uplifting, or even romantic (in terms of love, not Romanticism) rather than ominous. For instance, Judas Priests's "Another Thing Comin'," which seems like the sort of thing to pump you up and excite you rather than scare you. You also say Metal is considered the "devil's music," but IIRC one of the reasons for that is that it uses the tritone, which (according to Wikipedia) was referred to as "diabolis in musica" or something similar, according to Wikipedia at least. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on either point, but why wouldn't one be able to make a Jazz tune with the 'diabolic' tritone or an ominous minor chord? You're right to say that Metal owes a lot compositionally to Classical, but so does Jazz--IIRC, Ken Burns went so far as to call Duke Ellington "America's Mozart" in his documentary on the artform! So I'm not sure Jazz is much less Classical than Metal is.

Fair enough, though I think it may be a little early to worry about that just yet...there's no guarantee any jazz (or pop, swing, etc.) will show up in Bloodstained I wouldn't be surprised if one or two jazzy tracks showed up, but I think it's a fair bet the OST, when released, won't be full of nothing but jazz. I agree, that would be inappropriate, since diversity is a good thing in music

I can totally abide with one or two jazzier songs in the same way that I did with Symphony of the Night, so that's no worry. I just hope it doesn't go the way of Portrait of Ruin is all.

Do you mean this?

If yes, thanks for explaining until I could understand your point of view. This is one of my less favorite songs, while I don't dislike it I've never felt like it should be a entrance theme, since you would need to hear it a lot of times because of backtracking and it just feels boring after a long play.

This one always felt like Final Fantasy Tactics to me:

But even so, there is a lot of music from Portrait of ruin that I like a lot, Jail of Jewels for example.

Post by aindriu on Aug 27, 2015 10:02:44 GMT -6

If yes, thanks for explaining until I could understand your point of view. This is one of my less favorite songs, while I don't dislike it I've never felt like it should be a entrance theme, since you would need to hear it a lot of times because of backtracking and it just feels boring after a long play.

This one always felt like Final Fantasy Tactics to me:

But even so, there is a lot of music from Portrait of ruin that I like a lot, Jail of Jewels for example.

Yes, it is to Invitation of a Crazed Moon that I am specifically referring to. It was my first impression and the only lasting one.

Agreed, Operation "VK" does sound similar to something from FF Tactics, but I feel that FF Tactics had a bit more to offer as far as atmosphere and complexity. Operation "VK" feels underwhelming, especially for a boss battle theme.

Jail of Jewels is admittedly excellent, and I think part of that is due to the fact that it feels like a conventional Castlevania leitmotif. I suppose I overlooked this one due to, as I stated, the first impression of Invitation of a Crazed Moon.

crocodile: Thanks for the well wishes everyone. Been busy with life (+ no updates) means I haven't been checking around here super often but do know I still love all you guys Aug 16, 2017 18:11:01 GMT -6