Weaver95:I think we should continue our policy of making guns and ammo as cheap and plentiful as possible while disenfranchising the electorate, making them poor and preventing them from feeding/housing themselves and their families. Thats a problem that eventually solves itself.

We're not preventing them from feeding their families: we're preventing them from ever accumulating wealth. There IS a difference. If you have nothing, it's easy to fight. If you have just enough to scrape by, you don't want to lose that.

I think we should continue our policy of making guns and ammo as cheap and plentiful as possible while disenfranchising the electorate, making them poor and preventing them from feeding/housing themselves and their families. Thats a problem that eventually solves itself.

I think it's something long overlooked in the Obamacare/Universal Health Care/single payer system debates. How many workers would, if they no longer had to worry about obtaining medical insurance, jump at the opportunity to start their own business? What would the impact of such a boom in small businesses have on the US economy? On available jobs? On manufacturing? Yes, 95% of them would fail in the first 5 years, which economically just means that all of their start-up funds were injected into the economy, rather then creating a self-sustaining cash engine. The potential for investment and purchasing businesses would shake some of that money loose from existing businesses who have been sitting on larger and larger piles of cash reserves.

If I'm not mistaken, this is pretty much the attitude that brought unions into existence. That being, the companies were taking advantage of the employees for no other reason than that they could (well, that and to maximize profits). Considering what this economy is like today, it doesn't surprise me that companies are not exactly thrilled about making things better for people. They would pretty much say, "You don't like it? I'll have someone else in your desk by tomorrow morning."

MayoSlather:Smelly Pirate Hooker: The truth is, most jobs - at best - kinda suck. Many of them really, really suck. But somebody's got to do them.

About that...

Most jobs in our country are completely unnecessary. With our current technology we can produce enough food, clothing, housing, and materials to stock our shelves with a small amount of the total workforce employed. The average person should only work about 20hrs a week and retire at 50. But hey, having a pharmacy on every corner, fast food open 24/7, and legions of miserable people pushing paper work around to make money for the sake of making money is totally worth it.

The problem is that we are slaves to our capitalism; it's a beast that requires exponential growth from companies or they are considered a failure. As a result employees will always be paid far less than what they are worth to a company, and they will always be pushed harder no matter what level of efficiency is achieved.

My parents are retirement age, and I keep imploring them to retire because they both seem stressed out/miserable. They claim they can't afford to retire, because the cost of living is so much more today than what they originally planned for. When I was growing up we only had free broadcast TV in the house with 3 channels, and now they have a $185/month DirectTV satellite bill. They both have an iPhone 5, complete with expensive unlimited data and calling plans, but they get gouged on home internet access (sadly they're just tech savy enough to consume premium products, not tech savy enough to know how to cut corners). We used to just check out books at the public library for information and entertainment. On and on and on. The truth is they've just grown accustomed to a certain level of consumption that they can't sustain unless they keep working to feed the beast.

I am currently on a 4-month sick leave after gaining 5 new screws in my right foot (triple arthrodesis surgery). My daily concerns are getting around on crutches without damaging myself or the furniture and making sure I don't put any weight on my cast. I am also concerned with keeping my mind busy while my body heals. What I am not concerned with is medical bills, cost of meds, and salary (the latter is thanks to private insurance, but the former is thanks to public healthcare). Not only that, but when I return to work at the end of the summer, I still have a few weeks paid vacation to take.

The most astonishing thing when observing our US friends is how the GOP has managed to convince so many of the people who would most benefit from it that president Obama's plan to provide health insurance to everyone is bad for them.

not to mention, every time I have to take a day off, I am reminded by at least 3 people to tell someone else I'll be leaving, and how I'm inconveniencing the company, since I'm the only person who does my job. Also, I occasionally get texted on my days off and even on sick days to ask about job related crap. Why should I give a shiat if I'm not there. It's not like I don't care about my job, but I only care about it when I'm there. It's my farking life, I just work for you.

DubtodaIll:PizzaJedi81: The Stealth Hippopotamus: People are always going to bitach about something

Can I biatch about owners who don't actually care about their business, only the money brought in?

Those are two different things?

It's possible to have a completely toxic workplace that kills moral and still bring in most of the money you would have made if it wasn't so toxic. It's a short term strategy, but that's all anyone does anymore.

Not to mention you either are discouraged from taking vacation time, or don't have vacation time at all. I've been working for the company I've been working for for a year and a half now. How much vacation time do I have? One day and a half. Nice. Oh, also no healthcare through my job or sick days. Why yes, I am quitting ASAP.

When you live in a country that constantly pumps the idea that the reason you don't have a pot to piss in is the fault of the other, poor, dumb sonofab*tch up the road who hasn't got a pot to piss in either AND, if you DO have a pot to piss in, you better grab on tight and lord it over people and tell everybody who doesn't that they're whiners - you can't really expect people to pay attention to the guy in the nice suit with the crowbar dismantling the ladder you think you're climbing. He's Santa Claus he's a WINNER! And YOU can be TOO! Put the kool aid down before pontificating about economics, folks cause you're missing the whole con.

durbnpoisn:If I'm not mistaken, this is pretty much the attitude that brought unions into existence.

I've had that conversation with my conservative friends. Each and every one of them has grown up believing that unions are fundamentally evil and exist for no other purpose than to line the pockets of the union coffers. Again and again, I've tried to point out to them that unions came into existence for a reason and that whether or not you believe that unions are the correct solution to those problems, the problems legitimately exist and the free market does not do a good job of correcting them because all the incentives point in the other direction (i.e., towards worker exploitation).

The only thing that will make employees happy is if everyone's tax returns were made public. When my company is having a "down time" and I'm as busy as ever I would like to see what my boss is actually making when I am still as busy as ever.

In the 80's my dad was laid off from the Big Yellow Kitty and worked for a local hardware store. The owner talked everyone into taking straight time for over time instead of 1.5 x hourly wages and also only gave out a yearly raise of $0.05/hour. The man is a multimillionaire and would talk about how bad things were. The owner now has cancer and I am OK with that.

PizzaJedi81:DubtodaIll: PizzaJedi81: The Stealth Hippopotamus: People are always going to bitach about something

Can I biatch about owners who don't actually care about their business, only the money brought in?

Those are two different things?

Business in this case meaning the physical building, as well as those who work there, and, in some cases, the customers.

All they care about is squeezing every last dollar out of the customers, not necessarily bringing them back. They don't put any money BACK into the store, unless it gets to be a very very bad situation wherein they can't serve the customers, which would mean no money. Our computer system is about 8 years old and comes close to crashing about 3 times a year. Our fryers are broken to the point of needing to be replaced...but they still, technically, work. Our bun warmer hasn't been operational in....almost a year, maybe. Let's see...oh! The back door lock, which is supposed to have an alarm go off, barely locks and doesn't have an alarm!

So why aren't you fixing all these problems? If the boss sucks, and you believe you're competent enough to take his job, go to his boss, lay out all the problems, and explain how you would go about fixing them. Do your research, show your boss' boss how your efforts would help the business and convince him/her that you're the person to do it. Be prepared to fail, but being that you're prepared to fail you're more prepared than your boss who is already failing, so therefore, you should win.Of course all this takes a lot of non-compensated effort and work on your part which is a hard sell to yourself.

This is why I never really get worked up over unemployment numbers while people acted like it was such a crime against humanity that people were dropping out of the work force and retiring. Many people just decided that it wasn't worth it to go back into the workplace at the going market rate for their job skills. Good. The goal in life shouldn't necessarily be to work until the day you drop dead. Many people feel like they have to keep working because they refuse to cut back on their consumption/spending to more sustainable and realistic levels.

I worked many jobs in my time and only in one was I happy enough to speculate that if I could move into the place, I would.

I gave 110% and more. I absorbed information like a sponge, far faster and better than I had done in school.

Then, the administration changed, employees were fired and none replaced so we had to absorb their work loads without even a small pay raise. New managers seemed to find a lot to gripe about. Making overtime seemed nearly impossible as they implemented a new way to figure it that I never did grasp the concept. Then, they started segregating the professionals from the non-professionals, not wanting them to be friends, to eat together or even take breaks together.

Some employees were ordered to spy on others, or loose their jobs.

That was at a hospital. I was an Orderly, who had taken some nursing courses and did the work of a Medical Tech but was never given the rank nor pay applicable to my skills. Yet I was called more than other orderlies to handle complex situations and usually given the position of roving orderly, meaning I covered the entire hospital and not just one floor. Plus I trained new Orderlies.

After I left there I had a series of jobs where they seemed cool when I started but turned to shiat over time, especially when the economy dipped.

In one job I was required not only to treat my patients, but to defend them and staff as necessary. I got smacked in the head with a pool cue by a disruptive patient, slapped by another, wound up wresting with a couple more, got blindsided and punched in the face by one which fractured my nose, nearly got stabbed with the jagged end of a broken wooden coat hanger, had to jump in to keep another employee from beating the krap out of a patient and chased more than one patient out of the clinic and through the high crime minority section the place was in, where the locals promptly hid such patients because their skin was black and mine was white.

I saved a patient's life and was nearly fired for it. I watched other employees abuse and steal from patients and my complaints went ignored. I got to experience reverse discrimination since most of the inpatient staff was black. One staff member carried a straight razor in his pocket -- which wasn't allowed but was ignored for him. Another staff member got his arse shot up in a dispute with a bartender where he tried to shoot him first -- and was rehired after getting out of the hospital.

I soon hated that job, which was in the Mental Health Field, right about the time the government was closing the big state institutions and dumping patients on the streets. I watched therapists leave because they couldn't take the bullshiat and, eventually, I left.

Other jobs I gave 110% and found that wasn't good enough as businesses instituted the 39 hour work week, slashed benefits, started pushing employees to do more and more for less and pointing out that they had a pile of applicants for their jobs.

In one job I worked a 12 and 13 hour day, plus was on call all of the time since I was manager, but got paid for 8. I didn't make more than $10.85 an hour and soon discovered that it was damned if you did and damned if you didn't.

Often I worked two jobs, like delivering papers at night or doing private health care for people in their homes.

I got fired from one job and the boss fought my unemployment, lying his arse off. I won the case anyhow and he had to pay 50% of my unemployment for almost two years. Previously, he had bragged to all of his employees about how he NEVER paid unemployment.

In one job I hauled tons of freight from tractor trailers in heat inside the trailer that usually approached 125 degrees. Then I had to put it all away in the stock room. I was a stock room manager and discovered that my pay had a maximum range -- UNDER $10 an hour. Plus I was expected to work over but not on the clock.

In one job, I saved a life. In another, I worked to prove that my boss did not deserve to be fined several hundred dollars for freight that was shipped to a wrong area and spent hours salvaging things like fluorescent lights from abandoned buildings because the company didn't like paying for new ones. In one job I chased a thief off the loading dock with a 2x4, later caught an employee stealing and had my crew lower me down into a manhole on a chain to clear a sump pump. In one I fronted the money to pay for needed equipment. In another I saved the boss money by buying repair parts for the company trucks and installing them myself. (He reimbursed me for the parts. He never paid me anything for the extra time it took to install the stuff.)

When I left that job, he owed me about $100 for things I had purchased for the company and had promised to pay me. He never did.

No, I didn't like the majority of my jobs after a bit. I also discovered that the bosses didn't like to hand out compliments. However, they certainly could find things to biatch about.

Yeah, I can fully understand why so many people do not like their jobs. Loyalty is a thing of the past. Rewarding a low level employee is also no longer done.

I would dearly LOVE to find a job that I could really like, work my ass of at, make some good pay, get good benefits and actually have the boss compliment little old me or at least appreciate any efforts I made to save the company money. It'd be nice to get more than a $0.25 raise or a $100 bonus.

I don't mind working over 80 hours, so long as I'm treated well.

Businesses these days don't do that anymore -- and as a result, they loose millions in productivity. It's been proven time and time again that happy workers produce more, with less errors and work to support the company. Then the company makes bigger profits.

Fissile:Jument: I like my job. I hesitate to say love, see next paragraph. I get paid a comfortable wage to do a rewarding job that's not terribly taxing on me most of the time. I have great benefits, etc. I'm enthusiastic and committed, for the most part and I really could not ask for a better professional situation.

That said, I would quit in a heartbeat if I had the financial means to retire. Going into work every day is not my idea of a perfect life. The world is too big, life is too short. I work because I want to eat and keep my house. If I could travel and do yoga and train for triathlon and whatever else instead of spending 1/4+ of my life working, I would.

===============

Yup. With enough money I could find something to do all day, and not just "me" stuff. I'd like to volunteer at the local hospital, but I can't because I have no time left after working and keeping the house and car from falling apart.

Unfortunately, a lot of rich people don't think like that. Case in point: My elderly neighbor. Dead wife, no kids or grand kids. No debts, several million invested in mutual funds. He does nothing with it. No travel, no hobbies, not a foodie, never volunteered for anything, does nothing really except sit around watching Fox and listening to talk radio. He continues to clip coupons, always asks for the senior discount because he's "on a fixed

/Inheritance over a million should be taxed at 90%.

That money belongs to that old man and he should be able to leave it to whomever he damn well pleases and not have to worry about the gov ripping them off.Those nieces and nephews still have to pay capital gains when they cash out their inherited investments. I don't care if it's taxed at over a million or three or five. Inheritance tax is double dipping on the governments part - and that's disgusting and sad.

Full Metal Retard:d23: abrannan: I think it's something long overlooked in the Obamacare/Universal Health Care/single payer system debates. How many workers would, if they no longer had to worry about obtaining medical insurance, jump at the opportunity to start their own business?

That might be one of the unspoken reasons that a person (when they're actually reasoning and not just listening an parroting) would oppose it. The top 1% aren't not only busy being bootstrappy, they are actively working at putting barriers up to prevent others from getting to that 1% threshold. They won't admit that, of course...

The fact is that some companies have run the numbers and found that a single payer system would HELP them, but that is never admitted because their ideology doesn't allow them to talk about it.

That is the stupidest thing I have ever read on FARK. You have no idea what you're talking about.

So, the idea that the people in the cool tree house would pull the rope up is just ludicrous? I'd ease up on the "U R teh stupid" if I were youse.

Full Metal Retard: abrannan: I think it's something long overlooked in the Obamacare/Universal Health Care/single payer system debates. How many workers would, if they no longer had to worry about obtaining medical insurance, jump at the opportunity to start their own business? What would the impact of such a boom in small businesses have on the US economy? On available jobs? On manufacturing? Yes, 95% of them would fail in the first 5 years, which economically just means that all of their start-up funds were injected into the economy, rather then creating a self-sustaining cash engine. The potential for investment and purchasing businesses would shake some of that money loose from existing businesses who have been sitting on larger and larger piles of cash reserves.

You're an idiot.

I'm a small business man, and the last thing I want is more mandates from lazy idiots in Washington.

Every business in America is putting off hiring and expanding until they can figure out what this thing is going to cost.until demand picks up because the only reason any business will hire more people is because of increase in demand for that business's goods/services. Whole segments of the economy will no longer be viable with dramatically more expensive labor. It's a disaster. It has prevented a normal economic recovery from the 2008 crash.

Has anybody noticed that the preponderance of American corporations and their lobbyist shills harrumphing about "Capitalism! It's the AMERICAN way!" are getting their pussy in a communist country and their gravy in the land of the free - where anybody who's stupid enough to feel entitled to health care, a living wage and is less than enthusiastic about getting f*cked out of their pensions - is summarily kicked to the curb as some sort of Bolshevik?

Umm, if I were to "actively engage" at work the way my employer would prefer me to do, I would be helping them to get kickbacks from generic companies for actively forcing patients to use their drugs through surreptitious communications with doctors.

I would also be helping my company gather even more personal information about patients and ask them to sign electronically stating my company may use their private health info. What for exactly? Damned if I know! I know it's illegal for my company to use the info without a signature, and they won't tell me what they're using it for, so that's enough to think its probably shady at best.

I'm also supposed to direct patients to use our store brand products, which I do fairly often, but products I've used and found to be inferior? Hell no, I won't tell people who trust me for their health to use them.

In short, I am engaged in a profession which demands a higher standard of honesty and integrity than my company exhibits. I suspect many more people are similarly "disengaged", and I applaud them for it.

Supercampion:capt.hollister: Capo Del Bandito: capt.hollister: The most astonishing thing when observing our US friends is how the GOP has managed to convince so many of the people who would most benefit from it that president Obama's plan to provide health insurance to everyone is bad for them.

It's not necessarily a matter of 'bad for them' so much as an ideological thing.

I'm against healthcare provided by the government for anyone because of my 'the government shouldn't be providing for people in that manner'.

I'm sure the neo-cons have some religious minded thing behind it. But it's not that it's 'bad' but a difference of how the world should work.

To be honest, I still don't understand the ideology. People can and should disagree on many things, but who in their right mind would argue that it is acceptable for a family to bankrupt itself or for a breadwinner to lose his job because a member of the family needs major surgery and they or their employer can't afford the insurance ? Besides my current personal circumstance, I also have a nephew who has been battling leukaemia for the past several years, under our system his treatments and medications are all covered by society at large in the form of the taxes we all pay, under the US system his family would likely be in debt for the rest of their lives... I have no problem determining which is the better system.

Seems to me that making sure that every last member of society is provided with proper health care is exactly the sort of thing that a government should concern itself with.

As an American living in Canada with his family at the moment, the Canadian health care system is pretty good for something and not so good for others. Its cheap, for a family of 4 its like 100 bucks a month and that pays pretty much for everything including surgery, chemo, etc... HOWEVER, you have to wait weeks and sometimes months to go in for surgery.

Absolutely. Our system can stand some improvements, the main problem being access to specialists, a situation not helped by many of them going into private clinics. I could, for example, describe the frustrating search for an orthopaedic surgeon.., however in my personal experience, if you need urgent care, you will receive it quickly and efficiently (barring human error in recognizing your need, as the occasional news story seems to suggest). I have occasional bouts of atrial fibrillation. It happens every few years or so. When it does, we drive to the ER in the morning, explain the situation and within a few hours I've been cardioversed and back home, usually in time for dinner. I might add that the only cost to me is for the hospital parking lot...

Whenever people are too fed up with bigger problems to give a fark about the latest Sony vs. Microsoft video game console or whether the latest crappy Hollywood comic book movie properly addressed the original cannon.

DubtodaIll:PizzaJedi81: DubtodaIll: PizzaJedi81: The Stealth Hippopotamus: People are always going to bitach about something

Can I biatch about owners who don't actually care about their business, only the money brought in?

Those are two different things?

Business in this case meaning the physical building, as well as those who work there, and, in some cases, the customers.

All they care about is squeezing every last dollar out of the customers, not necessarily bringing them back. They don't put any money BACK into the store, unless it gets to be a very very bad situation wherein they can't serve the customers, which would mean no money. Our computer system is about 8 years old and comes close to crashing about 3 times a year. Our fryers are broken to the point of needing to be replaced...but they still, technically, work. Our bun warmer hasn't been operational in....almost a year, maybe. Let's see...oh! The back door lock, which is supposed to have an alarm go off, barely locks and doesn't have an alarm!

So why aren't you fixing all these problems? If the boss sucks, and you believe you're competent enough to take his job, go to his boss, lay out all the problems, and explain how you would go about fixing them. Do your research, show your boss' boss how your efforts would help the business and convince him/her that you're the person to do it. Be prepared to fail, but being that you're prepared to fail you're more prepared than your boss who is already failing, so therefore, you should win.Of course all this takes a lot of non-compensated effort and work on your part which is a hard sell to yourself.

That's a nice sentiment, but it doesn't work when your boss is close friends with your boss' boss. It also doesn't work when most of the incompetent people at your work still have jobs because they all go to the same church as your boss' boss' boss. Old boy's network wins the day.

Think that this kind of business model will fail? Sure, I think so, too. But the question isn't, "Will it fail." The question is, "How long will it take to fail." If the time frame is longer than your lifetime, then it doesn't really matter, does it?

Do the needful:Told the owner I needed to have a chat with him that afternoon and in the meeting gave my resignation on the spot. Told him I would never under any circumstances work for that guy and why. That was a Thursday. Took Friday off and started the new job on Monday.

Typical socialist... didn't even give two weeks notice!

/ they want two weeks notice when you quit// but when they fire you.... it's all "at will"

Lexx:museamused: Lexx: Weaver95: I think we should continue our policy of making guns and ammo as cheap and plentiful as possible while disenfranchising the electorate, making them poor and preventing them from feeding/housing themselves and their families. Thats a problem that eventually solves itself.

We're not preventing them from feeding their families: we're preventing them from ever accumulating wealth. There IS a difference. If you have nothing, it's easy to fight. If you have just enough to scrape by, you don't want to lose that.

Until they start going hungry. Parents with hungry children have a lot of fight in 'em.

Won't happen, North America's agricultural base is ginormous.

That's true, but the rich would rather the poor starve than sell something for less than they believe it is worth. As is evidenced everyday by the amount of perfectly good food that is thrown out.

Smelly Pirate Hooker:The truth is, most jobs - at best - kinda suck. Many of them really, really suck. But somebody's got to do them.

About that...

Most jobs in our country are completely unnecessary. With our current technology we can produce enough food, clothing, housing, and materials to stock our shelves with a small amount of the total workforce employed. The average person should only work about 20hrs a week and retire at 50. But hey, having a pharmacy on every corner, fast food open 24/7, and legions of miserable people pushing paper work around to make money for the sake of making money is totally worth it.

The problem is that we are slaves to our capitalism; it's a beast that requires exponential growth from companies or they are considered a failure. As a result employees will always be paid far less than what they are worth to a company, and they will always be pushed harder no matter what level of efficiency is achieved.

Not sure about others, but working for a major university has taught me that 99% of the useless redundant paperwork that we produce and no one reads is generated only to stave off the possibility of lawsuits. I swear that a HUGE amount of what a lot of people do is driven by either political bullshiat or lawyer bullshiat. And of course we have the shiattiest computer systems on the planet because everything is given to the lowest bidder. We also have older people who never want to change and thus in 2013 some of our forms are still CARBON COPY forms! 15 years ago I recreated every single form into an excel document and they still won't agree to use them! So am I an unhappy worker, you better believe it. I can't walk away because I have rent to pay and family to support. Am i happy to have a job with benefits, yes I am. Am I stressed out at work every day, hell yeah. Do we ever have enough people to do our jobs properly, hell no. Are we constantly threatened that our jobs could disappear overnight. Yes. I have stresses that my parents never had. Back in their day if you did a good job, it was yours for life. Now I see people right and left who have worked for years doing a good job kicked to the curb because of "downsizing" or a conglomerate taking over the business and kicking everyone out. There is no such thing as job security. Gas/water/electricity/rent/groceries go up all the time and my pay almost never goes up. Before you tell me that I have so much more than my parents had, I do not have cable/internet access at home/vacation home etc.

abrannan:I think it's something long overlooked in the Obamacare/Universal Health Care/single payer system debates. How many workers would, if they no longer had to worry about obtaining medical insurance, jump at the opportunity to start their own business?

That might be one of the unspoken reasons that a person (when they're actually reasoning and not just listening an parroting) would oppose it. The top 1% aren't not only busy being bootstrappy, they are actively working at putting barriers up to prevent others from getting to that 1% threshold. They won't admit that, of course...

The fact is that some companies have run the numbers and found that a single payer system would HELP them, but that is never admitted because their ideology doesn't allow them to talk about it.

DubtodaIll:PizzaJedi81: The Stealth Hippopotamus: People are always going to bitach about something

Can I biatch about owners who don't actually care about their business, only the money brought in?

Those are two different things?

Business in this case meaning the physical building, as well as those who work there, and, in some cases, the customers.

All they care about is squeezing every last dollar out of the customers, not necessarily bringing them back. They don't put any money BACK into the store, unless it gets to be a very very bad situation wherein they can't serve the customers, which would mean no money. Our computer system is about 8 years old and comes close to crashing about 3 times a year. Our fryers are broken to the point of needing to be replaced...but they still, technically, work. Our bun warmer hasn't been operational in....almost a year, maybe. Let's see...oh! The back door lock, which is supposed to have an alarm go off, barely locks and doesn't have an alarm!

Aarontology:I'm really f*cking sick of this attitude that because some have it worse, you need to accept complacency. It's goddamned toxic to a society.

Some people do have it worse, but then again, some people have it better. To be precise, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really,really, really, really, really, really (...) better, and will do everything in their power to keep themselves for losing a single "really," because losing so much as one means they have it worse than they did before, and that... well that is simply unacceptable, and anyone advocating re-appropriating a "really" to someone without as many is a danger and a threat to freedom.

lewismarktwo:DubtodaIll: d23: DubtodaIll: I would be interested in some examples on that one.

Huh? So you're not aware of any rich folks that have lobbied for laws that make it harder to amass wealth or make it harder for competitors to start businesses?

Well.. I am glad life is better on your planet then.

So what you're saying is that you cannot cite specific efforts? Why is it that whenever I make republican statements I have to codify everything and provide a full etymology of every word I use but the other side of the aisle is allowed to say whatever and not have to prove it?

Protip: There's no sides except us and them. You're not them.

Establishing contention as the foundation of your beliefs is only going to lead to conflict. I don't believe there is anyone out there who is personally trying to stop me from being successful. In my experience, my failures have been my fault, and so have my successes.

cuzsis:InmanRoshi: Supercampion: Does anyone have any idea when the revolution is coming?

Whenever people are too fed up with bigger problems to give a fark about the latest Sony vs. Microsoft video game console or whether the latest crappy Hollywood comic book movie properly addressed the original cannon.

Judging by Fark threads, not any time soon.

It's their escape.

When they no longer have an escape... when there is nothing left to lose... then there will be revolution.

And it will be ugly.

/would be nice if things got patched up before it came to that, but humanity has a tendency to not do that.

Once upon a time, corporations wanted you to like them and not hate their guts for selling you the cheapest shiat possible for the highest price while being rung up by a person who hates their job and you. How do you f*ck that up? By assuming every jerkoff with a corner office needs a 170,000.00 car. Pump your own gas, pick up your own sh*t, wrap your own gifts, buy whatever we can get for a handful of rice from a city whose name you can't pronounce and be grateful when it's on sale. Now call up CircuitousTech and get one of those things that keep us from having to answer our phones.

Corporate culture is all top heavy sh*t designed to keep middle management meatballs in pretendy ass jobs by telling them they can run a company with a whip, thinly disguised threats and Woolworths, 6 for a nickel psych evals and spreadsheets. Otherwise, they have to work. It's an ant farm run from a penthouse by people who can't actually do anything.

safetycap:Remember: people who are "loyal" to companies are like battered spouses: their abuser sees them as nearly worthless.[img.fark.net image 180x180]Don't spend it all in one place.

Every day a work is another day I evaluate the company/my boss. When they rack up enough violations on their permanent record, they will be "rightsized" and I will work for someone else.

// So far, they've got a pretty big black mark for screwing// up my paperwork then refusing to pay me for the// first two weeks I was there "because the paperwork wasn't complete"// Incompetence, pure and simple, and when I'm done using them to// pay off my debt and get a few years experience in the field,// they're going to be let go. Haven't decided if it'll be an immediate termination// or if I'll give them two weeks of coasting.

Remember: people who are "loyal" to companies are like battered spouses: their abuser sees them as nearly worthless.Don't spend it all in one place.

Every day a work is another day I evaluate the company/my boss. When they rack up enough violations on their permanent record, they will be "rightsized" and I will work for someone else.

// So far, they've got a pretty big black mark for screwing// up my paperwork then refusing to pay me for the// first two weeks I was there "because the paperwork wasn't complete"// Incompetence, pure and simple, and when I'm done using them to// pay off my debt and get a few years experience in the field,// they're going to be let go. Haven't decided if it'll be an immediate termination// or if I'll give them two weeks of coasting.

Sadly the most productive working classes will be underpaid because the least productive working classes receive a minimum wage.

Min wage is not a living wage for a reason. When you establish a minimum wage you elevate base prices to the level where minimum wage buys what it always does.....but more importantly, the wages above minimum tend not to rise along with the minimum, so the middle class can buy less with its money because we are forcing higher wages for the unskilled.

But this is lost on you because you really just want to be paid to sleep.

WhyteRaven74:Full Metal Retard: That is the stupidest thing I have ever read on FARK. You have no idea what you're talking about.

30 years of wage stagnation...that can't possibly be hurting people's ability to get ahead.

P.J. O'Rourke, in his book "Eat The Rich", stated that the economy isn't like a pizza and somebody eats the whole thing, then your family gets the pizza box for sinner. Peej is very good writer. Peej drinks a lot. And he was was flat out wrong about that one.

Full Metal Retard:d23: abrannan: I think it's something long overlooked in the Obamacare/Universal Health Care/single payer system debates. How many workers would, if they no longer had to worry about obtaining medical insurance, jump at the opportunity to start their own business?

That might be one of the unspoken reasons that a person (when they're actually reasoning and not just listening an parroting) would oppose it. The top 1% aren't not only busy being bootstrappy, they are actively working at putting barriers up to prevent others from getting to that 1% threshold. They won't admit that, of course...

The fact is that some companies have run the numbers and found that a single payer system would HELP them, but that is never admitted because their ideology doesn't allow them to talk about it.

That is the stupidest thing I have ever read on FARK. You have no idea what you're talking about.

Wow, really? You don't think big corporations make it very difficult for folks to start up new businesses? Besides, you're missing the main thesis of his post: How many workers would, if they no longer had to worry about obtaining medical insurance, jump at the opportunity to start their own business?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say, hundreds of thousands of not millions of Americans would start their own businesses if they didn't have to worry about obtaining their own health insurance, or obtaining health insurance for potential employees. Small business owners like you should absolutely support socialized medicine (or at least single payer/socialized insurance) because it's in your own best interest.

Full Metal Retard:And, BTW, if Ocare comes in at over $3500/ employee, we are closing the daycare centers and laying off about 175 people. The US is going to be seeing a lot of that.

You're doing a wonderful job of demonstrating you are part of the problem. Instead of doing something useful, like getting together with other small business owners to see if perhaps you could pool your resources or otherwise address the situation, you're whining that you'll have to provide for your employees.

It's not the 1% the Lefties hate. It's the guy next door who works hard and gets ahead.

And you're not very smart either, though your whining about having to take care of your employees speaks to that in spades.

d23:Debeo Summa Credo: No, he's right. I happen to be privy to knowledge that certain groups in the US believe it is appropriate that the number of people in the 1% be limited to a small subset of the population. You didn't hear it from me, but apparently they have it in their diabolical minds that no more than one in a hundred people get in. I tell ya, it's high time for pitchforks and torches.

No it's not. It's time to put reforms back in so "one man one vote" means something. I couldn't care less if people are billionares. What I really care about is that billionare's word to his senator means a million more than mine .

Lunchlady:I do believe that in their rush to curb the influence of humungous corporations that left-leaning policies can have an unintended consequence of hurting those they are meant to protect.

With respect, how? The corporations aren't going to provide employment to the unwashed masses anymore. Not in this country, anyway. We still dump billions of dollars on corporations every year with that basic belief in mind.

ThrobblefootSpectre:mgshamster: Damn right you should. Do you even know what "entitled" means? It means that you have a right to it by law. Damn right we should be giving people what is legally theirs.

Yes, if you read extra carefully, the operative word was "feel entitled to it". What some Americans feel like they are entitled to, and what they legally (or morally) are seems to get out of sync.

Humans beings are morally entitled to shelter, food and healthcare. They SHOULD feel and know that. It sounds like you love and worship money. You should be loving your fellow human beings. Even the Constitution says the government allows Congress to spend federal money for the general welfare of the people. Living or dieing would fall under general welfare. Welfare is the provision of a minimal level of public aid. In most developed countries, welfare is largely provided by the governmentMost countries are civilized enough to provide some form of universal healthcare. In the U.S. we spend more on healthcare than any other country yet only a portion of citizens have coverage. The others die or become bankrupt. I use to work in healthcare and saw it every day. You are just making excuses because you are a horrible, evil person. Stop arguing and just admit that because no rational, decent human being would agree with you. You have no basis to preach about morals. You don't have any.

Full Metal Retard:My family owns 4 small businesses. A small chain of day care centers that cares for about 3200 kids every day, and architectural ceramics business, a specialty bakery and a little software development for android devices. I have a patent for encryption on android devices and I'm working to exploit it.

The 2 businesses that are mine were begun with direct help from successful men. Guys who already had theirs; so they had no qualms about a budding competitor. Not relatives, just capable people who wanted others to be successful too. Both very Christian, very generous of heart. And I saved up the money to get into my own thing by working as a W2 and a contractor.

And that's great, but he said 1%%.

The idea that there is a grand conspiracy to stop people from making money is ridiculous. It's the kind of twaddle that losers recite as an excuse for their lack of initiative.

Conspiracy? No, it's a business plan. And it's necessary to keep money valuable. Because it has none.

And the only big cloud on the horizon is ObamaCare. It holds everything in check, waiting to see what the farking thing will cost. What is semi-skilled or unskilled labor going to cost next year? Not a single person in America can answer that question. It's a great reason to hire illegals or offshore the work.

And being out of beer money is a great reason to pimp your mother, on paper, but it's a sh*tty thing to do.

Government farking up the economy? I've seen loads of that. Evil 1% types working to keep people down? I've only seen the exact opposite of that.

How many multi-billionaires do you know?

And, BTW, if Ocare comes in at over $3500/ employee, we are closing the daycare centers and laying off about 175 people. The US is going to be seeing a lot of that.

I'm sorry to hear that, but eventually, either health care is going to have to cut the "everything costs 10,000.00" bullsh*t, be wholly socialized, or we're gonna have to start herding the ill into lime pits. Cause so far, valuaing bad IOUs over human life got us here.

Jument:I like my job. I hesitate to say love, see next paragraph. I get paid a comfortable wage to do a rewarding job that's not terribly taxing on me most of the time. I have great benefits, etc. I'm enthusiastic and committed, for the most part and I really could not ask for a better professional situation.

That said, I would quit in a heartbeat if I had the financial means to retire. Going into work every day is not my idea of a perfect life. The world is too big, life is too short. I work because I want to eat and keep my house. If I could travel and do yoga and train for triathlon and whatever else instead of spending 1/4+ of my life working, I would.

===============

Yup. With enough money I could find something to do all day, and not just "me" stuff. I'd like to volunteer at the local hospital, but I can't because I have no time left after working and keeping the house and car from falling apart.

Unfortunately, a lot of rich people don't think like that. Case in point: My elderly neighbor. Dead wife, no kids or grand kids. No debts, several million invested in mutual funds. He does nothing with it. No travel, no hobbies, not a foodie, never volunteered for anything, does nothing really except sit around watching Fox and listening to talk radio. He continues to clip coupons, always asks for the senior discount because he's "on a fixed income". To see him go about his daily business, you'd think he was poor. He's done nothing all his life except pound money up his ass, and continues to do so in old age.

His will leaves everything to nieces and nephews, who never call, or come to visit him. When he's dead, it will be party time for these people, you can believe it. It's both disgusting and sad,

Supercampion:So let me get this straight, you took less money in a city with a higher cost of living and in a state in which you have to pay tax.

[img.fark.net image 533x594]

The job was better. The pay was worse, but the job was better.

Or to put it another way, the magical money train (signing bonus) at the high-pay job (and it sounded like they were basically doubling everyone's salary with year-end stock bonuses on top of the defined salary) lasted for 4 years and 70% of their workforce left inside of 3. Imagine how bad your workplace would have to be for you to be making $150-$200K a year and just leave. I dealt with that level of corporate bureaucracy before, and never ever want to deal with it again.

So instead I became person Number 6 at my startup.

/And the best part is that either the company goes big, and I make hundreds of thousands off stock options in the exit, or the company explodes and I make thousands in the acqui-hire. I can't lose (barring earthquakes or 2nd dot-com bubbles, and even then, losing is still fairly nice).

bunner:Has anybody noticed that the preponderance of American corporations and their lobbyist shills harrumphing about "Capitalism! It's the AMERICAN way!" are getting their pussy in a communist country and their gravy in the land of the free - where anybody who's stupid enough to feel entitled to health care, a living wage and is less than enthusiastic about getting f*cked out of their pensions - is summarily kicked to the curb as some sort of Bolshevik?

Capitalism and Corporatism isn't the same thing. They'd like you to think that, but it's not.

ThrobblefootSpectre:Yes, if you read extra carefully, the operative word was "feel entitled to it". What some Americans feel like they are entitled to, and what they legally (or morally) are seems to get out of sync.

You might not be wrong, but applying that excuse to people that actually work hard and don't get a living wage for it is kind of sickening.

durbnpoisn:If I'm not mistaken, this is pretty much the attitude that brought unions into existence. That being, the companies were taking advantage of the employees for no other reason than that they could (well, that and to maximize profits). Considering what this economy is like today, it doesn't surprise me that companies are not exactly thrilled about making things better for people. They would pretty much say, "You don't like it? I'll have someone else in your desk by tomorrow morning."

And they wouldn't be making an empty threat.

That's the main thing I harp on about companies. They don't have time to train people or teach them something new. They treat people like paper clips and just have high turnover. Guess it's okay to have high turnover, but when I read about turnover online about a company, you know damn well I'm not applying to that company.

mgshamster:When my best friend was laid off, he went to Cobra to get insurance for himself and his daughter. The monthly cost for these two healthy individuals was nearly $1500. How would you pay that when you just lost your job?

But.. it's THERE for you, man! It's a chance! It's hope! It's a f*cking window shopping trip to a Rolls Royce dealership with a dime and some pocket lint.

"Neau, neau, neau, dear me, boy. You see, endless growth is the key and if we can use this.. money thing, to leverage all the actual wealth, some new thing will come along and the poors will want one. then we'll make it in China and sell it to poors with less and less money to pay for it, and then we'll use those profits to ruin other economic sectors and the poors can replace wealth we've stolen with the money they'll have after they're done buying whatever thing it is we make in China. Seau simple, you see. Now fetch me a toddy and some 6 year old Costa Rican boys, like a good chap."

ThrobblefootSpectre:The Stealth Hippopotamus: And if you double their pay and half their work they will still believe that they are over worked and underpaid.Then they would bitach about their co-pay for insurance.People are always going to bitach about something

Basically yes. Here is a map of the Human Development Index by nation, compiled by the U.N. (2013 data shown) It is a "comparative measure of life expectancy, literacy, education, standards of living, and quality of life for countries worldwide. It is a standard means of measuring well-being, especially child welfare. " In their words. The darker green the better people's lives in general.

You see that deep rich dark green area? Yes, we that live there do like to spend a lot of time and energy complaining about how horrible our lives are. How terrible we have it. How our game console is one generation old, our plasma screen is only 52" instead of 72", and golly you mean I have to work in order to get stuff? wtf is up with that? I don't like work! I should just receive stuff because I feel entitled to it.

[img.fark.net image 800x351]

Damn right you should. Do you even know what "entitled" means? It means that you have a right to it by law. Damn right we should be giving people what is legally theirs.

/Unless, of course, you're not using "entitled" in the proper usage and instead you're trying to use it like it is some sort of dirty word.//In which case, you should have written, "...because I want it."

SMB2811:Supercampion: As an American living in Canada with his family at the moment, the Canadian health care system is pretty good for something and not so good for others. Its cheap, for a family of 4 its like 100 bucks a month and that pays pretty much for everything including surgery, chemo, etc... HOWEVER, you have to wait weeks and sometimes months to go in for surgery.

Only if your issue is not life threatening. Which, btw, is the same in the US. You are going to wait to schedule lab/surgery.

I talked to a family not too long ago, the dad had colon cancer or some form of cancer and they were travelling to a clinc in the USA for surgery because where they were at it was like 8+ months to even get in for surgery. They said they didnt want to wait that long (obviously) or he'd be dead. That's how it is sometimes here, sure if you need IMMEDIATE surgery you get in but chemo that could be put off for a while or going under the knife? GET IN LINE.

durbnpoisn:They would pretty much say, "You don't like it? I'll have someone else in your desk by tomorrow morning." And they wouldn't be making an empty threat.Hey baby, when I found you, you was nothin'. Look at this fine crib. You eat McDonald's twice a DAY, you ungrateful ho! You KNOW I can trick out some biatch just as pretty as you lust like THAT, don'tcha? You know I can. Now go get me a coat hanger to beat you with and then get yo ass out there and make me some money, gurrrl.

durbnpoisn * * Smartest * Funniest 2013-06-18 03:56:52 PM If I'm not mistaken, this is pretty much the attitude that brought unions into existence. That being, the companies were taking advantage of the employees for no other reason than that they could (well, that and to maximize profits). Considering what this economy is like today, it doesn't surprise me that companies are not exactly thrilled about making things better for people. They would pretty much say, "You don't like it? I'll have someone else in your desk by tomorrow morning." And they wouldn't be making an empty threat.=====================================================

70% still wouldn't give a crap about their work if their pay was trebled, they had free health care, and got a month's paid vacation per year. Those things have nothing to do with the fact that it's impossible to match everyone up with work that interests them.

Capo Del Bandito:capt.hollister: The most astonishing thing when observing our US friends is how the GOP has managed to convince so many of the people who would most benefit from it that president Obama's plan to provide health insurance to everyone is bad for them.

It's not necessarily a matter of 'bad for them' so much as an ideological thing.

I'm against healthcare provided by the government for anyone because of my 'the government shouldn't be providing for people in that manner'.

I'm sure the neo-cons have some religious minded thing behind it. But it's not that it's 'bad' but a difference of how the world should work.

To be honest, I still don't understand the ideology. People can and should disagree on many things, but who in their right mind would argue that it is acceptable for a family to bankrupt itself or for a breadwinner to lose his job because a member of the family needs major surgery and they or their employer can't afford the insurance ? Besides my current personal circumstance, I also have a nephew who has been battling leukaemia for the past several years, under our system his treatments and medications are all covered by society at large in the form of the taxes we all pay, under the US system his family would likely be in debt for the rest of their lives... I have no problem determining which is the better system.

Seems to me that making sure that every last member of society is provided with proper health care is exactly the sort of thing that a government should concern itself with.

Can't find qualified programmers, which doesn't surprise me, as the unemployment rate for people with a Bachelor's or higher is at a seasonally adjusted 3.8% for May 2013

Then your company isn't offering enough money. When supply is low, prices are supposed to increase. That encourages others to enter the market and supply increases which causes price to drop.

You don't understand, Mike. That's not how it works for businesses. They're supposed to control how much they pay for services and goods; the free market isn't supposed to apply to their costs, only their profits.

ronaprhys:bbfreak: Not to mention you either are discouraged from taking vacation time, or don't have vacation time at all. I've been working for the company I've been working for for a year and a half now. How much vacation time do I have? One day and a half. Nice. Oh, also no healthcare through my job or sick days. Why yes, I am quitting ASAP.

Really. That's odd as I've got something like 7 weeks of vacation (it's a combo of sick leave and vacation), am not discouraged from taking it in the slightest, have benefits (65% paid by the company), and while I do work diligently, I can't say that it's incredibly hard. Do I like it? No. Does it pay well? It does. Is my boss just about as useless as tits on a boarhog? Definitely.

Lexx:A super-flu would do the trick - it'd wipe out the very young & very old, which would A: redistribute wealth & provide estate taxes to the government, B: massively lessen the health insurance load, C: make jobs available for the currently unemployable young, and D: sure, babies would die, but there'd be a boom of immigration & babies from the suddenly richer younger people with new job prospects celebrating!

Call me old fashioned, but I'm not sure most people want their newfound healthcare to come at the cost of a mass burial of folks that used to be their neighbors.

Lexx:A super-flu would do the trick - it'd wipe out the very young & very old, which would A: redistribute wealth & provide estate taxes to the government, B: massively lessen the health insurance load, C: make jobs available for the currently unemployable young, and D: sure, babies would die, but there'd be a boom of immigration & babies from the suddenly richer younger people with new job prospects celebrating!

It's logical emotionaless thinking like that which would help make the word a better place.

d23:abrannan: I think it's something long overlooked in the Obamacare/Universal Health Care/single payer system debates. How many workers would, if they no longer had to worry about obtaining medical insurance, jump at the opportunity to start their own business?

That might be one of the unspoken reasons that a person (when they're actually reasoning and not just listening an parroting) would oppose it. The top 1% aren't not only busy being bootstrappy, they are actively working at putting barriers up to prevent others from getting to that 1% threshold. They won't admit that, of course...

The fact is that some companies have run the numbers and found that a single payer system would HELP them, but that is never admitted because their ideology doesn't allow them to talk about it.

bbfreak:Not to mention you either are discouraged from taking vacation time, or don't have vacation time at all. I've been working for the company I've been working for for a year and a half now. How much vacation time do I have? One day and a half. Nice. Oh, also no healthcare through my job or sick days. Why yes, I am quitting ASAP.

Don't worry. One day the US may catch up with the vacation time of worker's paradise like China and Bangladesh. Oh who am I kidding?

abrannan:I think it's something long overlooked in the Obamacare/Universal Health Care/single payer system debates. How many workers would, if they no longer had to worry about obtaining medical insurance, jump at the opportunity to start their own business? What would the impact of such a boom in small businesses have on the US economy? On available jobs? On manufacturing? Yes, 95% of them would fail in the first 5 years, which economically just means that all of their start-up funds were injected into the economy, rather then creating a self-sustaining cash engine. The potential for investment and purchasing businesses would shake some of that money loose from existing businesses who have been sitting on larger and larger piles of cash reserves.

That's an excellent question and deserves due attention by policymakers and potential entrepenuers alike, and therefore has no place in a fark thread.

Weaver95:I think we should continue our policy of making guns and ammo as cheap and plentiful as possible while disenfranchising the electorate, making them poor and preventing them from feeding/housing themselves and their families. Thats a problem that eventually solves itself.

I hope it starts in your neighborhood, and you get yours first. Hey, you're right. Problem solved.

Capo Del Bandito:Weaver95: I think we should continue our policy of making guns and ammo as cheap and plentiful as possible while disenfranchising the electorate, making them poor and preventing them from feeding/housing themselves and their families. Thats a problem that eventually solves itself.

It'd be more effective to replicate the effects of the Black Plague and remove the majority of the workforce, giving them a bargining chip.

At least until we perfect robots for manual labor.

A super-flu would do the trick - it'd wipe out the very young & very old, which would A: redistribute wealth & provide estate taxes to the government, B: massively lessen the health insurance load, C: make jobs available for the currently unemployable young, and D: sure, babies would die, but there'd be a boom of immigration & babies from the suddenly richer younger people with new job prospects celebrating!

also, the last time I was actually sick I had to take a couple days off because my voice was gone and I talk on the phone for a living. I hadn't taken a sick day in almost 2 years prior to that, but when I came back I got treated like some kind of goldbrick because I happened to get sick Memorial Day weekend, so I got an "extra day off". Sitting in the shower with what used to be food coming out of both ends wasn't exactly my idea of "time off"

Weaver95:I think we should continue our policy of making guns and ammo as cheap and plentiful as possible while disenfranchising the electorate, making them poor and preventing them from feeding/housing themselves and their families. Thats a problem that eventually solves itself.

It'd be more effective to replicate the effects of the Black Plague and remove the majority of the workforce, giving them a bargining chip.

lewismarktwo:DubtodaIll: PizzaJedi81: The Stealth Hippopotamus: People are always going to bitach about something

Can I biatch about owners who don't actually care about their business, only the money brought in?

Those are two different things?

It's possible to have a completely toxic workplace that kills moral and still bring in most of the money you would have made if it wasn't so toxic. It's a short term strategy, but that's all anyone does anymore.

I've never worked in a place where the boss was an asshole because I've never accepted a job offer from an asshole.

Money was invented to convince people who do boring or dangerous things to attempt them or coerce them into doing it for the rest of their lives. Without any incentives no one would get anything done (me first).

Years ago I had a boss that efter chewing the crew out for something one of his hires did told us that we were lucky to work for him. And if he wanted he would have a line around the building with 30 people to replace each one of us that would be happy to work for him. He was a delusional ahole that got fired for sexual harassment. He is a pastor now from what I hear.

Do the needful:Weaver95: I think we should continue our policy of making guns and ammo as cheap and plentiful as possible while disenfranchising the electorate, making them poor and preventing them from feeding/housing themselves and their families. Thats a problem that eventually solves itself.