Rachael Kohn:
Finding peace in the fast lane of the entertainment world is quite different
from the kind of life that Ajahn Brahmavamso chose as a young man. Born in
London and educated in Theoretical Physics at Cambridge University, he became a
Buddhist monk in the Thai Forest tradition of Ajahn Chah. Now the Abbot of
Bodhinyana Monastery, in Serpentine, Western Australia, heвЂ™s in demand as a
speaker and is known for his story telling.

Although simplicity is the essence of monastic life, and thatвЂ™s particularly
so in the rural setting of Serpentine, the whole point of Buddhist insight is to
find tranquility in the midst of chaos. And thatвЂ™s how it was when I c aught
up with Ajahn Brahm in the Bodhikusuma Buddhist and Meditation Centre located in
the noisy inner city suburb of Chippendale in Sydney, where the transport trucks
rumbled by just outside the door.

Ajahn Brahm, youвЂ™ve been a monk for some years now, was it when you were 23?

Ajahn Brahmavamso: When I was 23, I decided IвЂ™d had enough of the world
and became a monk. I used to be a schoolteacher before, and thatвЂ™s enough to
make anyone leave the world and become a monk.

Rachael Kohn: Now I thought you had been studying physics at Cambridge
University.

Ajahn Brahmavamso: Yes, that was before I became a schoolteacher. I
thought IвЂ™d do something good with my life, instead of making bombs or things
like that. And so I decided to try schoolteaching. However, after a while the
whole feeling for a monastic life, or for something spiritual, was very strong
inside of me. And one of the lovely things about Buddhist monastic life, in the
Thai tradition was you can become a monk just for a short time.

So I decided I would take a couple of years off my career life, and then go off
to Thailand, become a monk, get it out of my system, and then go back to the
world again. But once I became a monk, something happened very quickly that I
realised thatвЂ™s what I always wanted to do, I felt so comfortable in the role
of a monk.

Rachael Kohn: Were you actually taking refuge as it were, away from the
school life, I mean teaching children? What was it that really made you take
quite a radical step.

Ajahn Brahmavamso: OK, what really made me take that step was a
realisation that deep inside there was much more to life than just getting on in
oneвЂ™s career or in relationships. Perhaps one of the most moving experiences
in my life was one of my first meditation retreats. I did get into a very deep
state of meditation, which was so joyful, it was so much bliss. And that never
left me, and I wanted to find out what exactly that meant and how it fits in to
the scheme of things. So that degree of deep meditation was something which
changed a lot of perspectives on the meaning of life. I wanted to explore those
perspectives more, and that could only be done in monastic life.

Rachael Kohn: Well the description you give of life in Thailand doesnвЂ™t
exactly sound joyful. I mean you spent a lot of time building monasteries, in
fact I think it totals to about 20 years building monasteries, in rather
difficult circumstances.

Ajahn Brahmavamso: It was difficult physically, building the monasteries,
but there was always a lot of fun around, and it was done joyfully. For example
one of my stories was when we were building the main hall in my teacher Ajahn
ChahвЂ™s monastery, there was a lot of earth left over and we had to move that
earth from one place to another because Ajahn Chah, my teacher, said it didnвЂ™t
look good over there.

It took three whole days of very hard work from 9 oвЂ™clock in the morning until
about 10pm with hardly any breaks. WeвЂ™d already eaten our meal for the day,
and that was one day after the other in the tropical heat. When we were
finished, we were very happy but then Ajahn Chah left for another monastery. The
following morning, his deputy abbot came up to us and said he thought the soil
was in the wrong place and we had to move it. So for another three days we moved
it to another spot, and again I was very happy when it was all finished.

But the next day, Ajahn Chah came back and he said, вЂWhat did you put the soil
over there for, I told you to leave it over here.вЂ™ And so for another three
days we had to move the soil again. And of course by this time I was getting
very angry and upset. And being a Westerner, in an Asian monastery, I could
swear in English without anyone understanding. But they did understand because
they could see my body language.

And I always remember one monk coming up to me and saying, вЂItвЂ™s pushing the
wheelbarrow is easy, itвЂ™s the thinking about it which is hard.вЂ™ And thatвЂ™s
changed the whole perspective of what I was doing. As soon as I stopped
complaining and moaning, it was easy to push that wheelbarrow, in fact it felt
much lighter. And this is actually how I learned about the secrets, one of the
secrets, of monastic life. DidnвЂ™t matter what you were doing, whether you were
sitting for hours and hours and hours in your hut, whether you were working
building a monastery, thereвЂ™s a thinking about it which made it hard.

Rachael Kohn: Well it also sounds like one of the secrets of monastic
life is learning how to take orders. I mean itвЂ™s positively torture, isnвЂ™t
it? to be told to do one thing and then to undo it and then re-do it again?

Ajahn Brahmavamso: Well sometimes. If you look from my perspective it
seems like it should be, look for another perspective, it wasnвЂ™t at all. It
was just again, one can make anything torture, one could make sort of eating
torture, or being interviewed torture, but itвЂ™s oneвЂ™s attitude which is the
most important thing, and this is one of the things you really found in monastic
life, itвЂ™s how you approached it. And a lot of times you had a choice. If you
were going to keep those old silly ways of looking at life, then you would
suffer. But if you actually changed the way you looked at life, in other words
you did learn some wisdom, you find it was no problem at all.

Rachael Kohn: Were you always interested in your attitude to things? I
mean were you always a kind of perfectionist, to try to find just the right sort
of happiness, because when I think of happiness and most of us are quite content
with some happiness and some unhappiness, you know the combination is what life
delivers in most cases. But you seem to be going for the kind of almost magical
solution to find happiness in all things.

Ajahn Brahmavamso: Correct, yes, because I always thought that the search
for happiness is the underlying force of life. No matter what weвЂ™re doing in
our world, in our life, itвЂ™s always a search for some sort of happiness. Then
again, one of those early experiences of deep bliss in meditation gave me a
taste of some happiness which was out of this world. And so once youвЂ™ve tasted
that you wanted to make even a deeper search into the meaning of happiness.

The meaning of happiness is the meaning of life. And so it wasnвЂ™t just the
meaning of happiness in meditation, it was also the meaning of happiness in
anything you were doing. Because even sometimes your body gave you orders in
saying, вЂNow you have to sleepвЂ™ or вЂNow you have to be sickвЂ™ or вЂNow
you canвЂ™t do what you wantвЂ™. So it didnвЂ™t matter whether there was
something else in life which stopped you doing what you wanted to do. That was
like the orders of life, and you had a chance there to actually let go, to
surrender to the moment when you canвЂ™t change things, and be content. And
thatвЂ™s one of the wonderful things which I found in Buddhist practice. You can
be happy, no matter whatвЂ™s going on.

Rachael Kohn: In fact you tell a story about going to a prison and
speaking to prisoners, where you described your life to them, and theyвЂ™re so
shocked, they actually say, вЂGee, come and live with us, itвЂ™s a lot nicer
here than a monastic lifeвЂ™. In fact stories are quite important to you, in the
way that you communicate.

Ajahn Brahmavanso: Life is lived in stories, not in thoughts. Thoughts
are almost like a second-hand report of what actually happens in your life. So
if you can take the stories of life and illustrate from them the meanings of
life, I think people can relate to it much more easily. So I like those stories.

Just to actually complete that story which you only mentioned in part when one
of my monks, it wasnвЂ™t myself, another monk was teaching in jail, after the
session they asked him about what it was like in a Buddhist monastery in the
West, and we told him we get up so early in the morning, 3 oвЂ™clock in the
morning and then we have to go to this cold hall to sit for hours cross-legged,
meditating, and doing some chanting. And then only afterwards, maybe at 6.30, we
might get a cup of tea, and then you have to work for three or four hours, hard
work, before you can get some lunch. And that lunch is just what youвЂ™re given,
youвЂ™ve got no choice, and itвЂ™s all eaten in one bowl, all mixed together. So
itвЂ™s not very delicious at all. And in the afternoon itвЂ™s usually more work
in those days. And then you canвЂ™t watch the television, there is no television
or radio, and you canвЂ™t follow sport, you canвЂ™t play sports, you canвЂ™t
play music or listen to music. ThereвЂ™s no movies to watch, and thereвЂ™s
nothing in the evening, you canвЂ™t eat in the evening, except just to go to the
main hall and to sit in more meditation, cross-legged on the hard floor for
hours, and when you do go back to your hut to sleep, itвЂ™s on the floor, in the
cold.

And so when I said this, or when this monk said this, the prisoners were very
shocked, and this is when one of the prisoners forgot where they were and said,
вЂThatвЂ™s disgusting, thatвЂ™s terrible, thatвЂ™s awful; why donвЂ™t you monks
come and live in here with us, in the jail?вЂ™ which was crazy, they forgot
where they were. But the important part of that story was the reason why my
monks and other people who visit the monastery like to stay there, and itвЂ™s
because theyвЂ™re content, they donвЂ™t look upon a monastery as a prison,
simply because itвЂ™s where they want to be. Whereas prisoners in a jail,
because they donвЂ™t want to be there, therefore it is a prison.

Rachael Kohn: ItвЂ™s all about freedom, isnвЂ™t it, about our perspective
on freedom, what constitutes freedom. I mean when I think about what constitutes
freedom for me, itвЂ™s spontaneity, itвЂ™s learning, itвЂ™s choice. What is it
for you?

Ajahn Brahmavamso: Well thereвЂ™s two types of freedom. The freedom of
desire and the freedom from desire, and most people in the world only know the
freedom of desire, the freedom of choice. In Buddhism, especially in meditation,
weвЂ™re looking at the freedom from choice, the freedom from desire.

So one is so content, so at peace, that desires donвЂ™t come up. One is free
from the tyranny of these desires always pushing or pulling you, and telling you
what to do. And itвЂ™s those are the orders which are coming from inside of each
one of us, ordering us to be somehow different, ordering the pain to go away,
ordering us to achieve some sort of goal, which we donвЂ™t really know why
weвЂ™re reaching for this, but weвЂ™re supposed to do it. So these are the
orders which in meditation weвЂ™re becoming free of.

Rachael Kohn: Did you always know why you were reaching for this goal to
be a Buddhist monk, to be an abbot.

Ajahn Brahmavamso: No, an abbot just happened by bad luck, but being an
Buddhist monk, IвЂ™d always had an inclination, that even though you saw many,
many people who had so many things, that they did seem to have the opportunity
to live their dreams, their dreams never stopped, they were never free from
this, always reaching out, this stretching, this hunger, this thirst, and that
hunger, that thirst, like any hungry person or thirsty person, is not all that
comfortable. Sometimes we want to end thirst, we want to end hunger and be
satisfied forever, but that never seemed to happen. But when I came across some
Buddhist monks, they were the happiest people IвЂ™d ever seen.

They appeared to be free, and even though that many wealthy people, successful
people in the world, they are looked upon as being icons, looked upon as being
people we try and emulate. If you actually asked them, or interview them and ask
the question вЂDo you really feel free?вЂ™ then I think they would give some
very interesting answers. But if you ask a monk who lives in a monastery with
many rules, and many things you canвЂ™t do, if you ask a monk вЂDo you feel
free?вЂ™ actually the feeling is freedom. So the ideas of freedom, the freedom
of desire and the freedom from desire, in our modern world, weвЂ™ve got so much
liberty to follow our desires and actually achieve those desires, basically we
can do almost anything we want. But how many people feel free?

Rachael Kohn: It all depends on what we expect from life. I know that
your message is often about happiness, and how the point of life is kind of like
that song, вЂDonвЂ™t Worry, Be HappyвЂ™, which is all about changing oneвЂ™s
attitude, not really about changing the world. And yet you would know, that that
kind of an attitude can also be breeding a certain indifference to the world.

Ajahn Brahmavamso: OK, well I donвЂ™t think this relates to indifference
at all, because many people change their attitude and the world changes with it.

Now the attitude of anger, of trying to get rid of problems, is like the
attitude to the pest exterminator, and the attitude of the pest exterminator is
instead of trying to live with nature, he always wanted control and eliminate
all those things which create problem for us, and that could be a husband or a
wife or it could be sort of some enemy which we perceive as being our pest. And
you find you canвЂ™t eliminate all the pests in the world, nor can you eliminate
the pests in your own body, like cancers and other sicknesses. Nor can you
eliminate the pests in the world. Some time there comes a time to learn how to
leave at peace and in harmony with nature.

Rachael Kohn: Does Buddhism ever teach a resistance to things which are
dangerous, which are bad, which are evil?

Ajahn Brahmavamso: Yes, we teach a resistance to anger, we teach a
resistance to jealousies, we teach a resistance to stupidity. Those are the
things which we should really be resisting, you know, the anger and the feelings
of revenge, the hurt, the grief, the guilt inside of us, all those negative
emotions which make our world. Those are the things which we want to resist, to
understand, to overcome, by letting go. And so those things arenвЂ™t there any
more.

Rachael Kohn: I like the story that you tell about the lecturer who comes
into the classroom and brings a jar full of rocks. Can you tell that story?

Ajahn Brahmavamso: OK, yes, thatвЂ™s actually from the internet, so many
of your listeners will probably know that one, but itвЂ™s a good story. There
was a lecturer at a university who was showing just how broad his wisdom was,
and instead of reading out his lecture notes one morning, he came with a big jar
and put it on his desk. And while everybody in his class was wondering what he
was up to, he started to put in some stones from a bag, one by one, into the jar
until he could get no more in. And once he could get no more stones into his
jar, he asked his class вЂIs the jar full?вЂ™ and the class said, вЂYes, it
is.вЂ™

He smiled, and from under the desk he got out another bag, and that bag was full
of gravel, small stones and one by one he managed to fit those small stones in
the spaces between the big rocks. And once he could get no more small stones in,
he looked up at his class and asked вЂIs the jar full?вЂ™ Now they all shook
their heads and said, вЂNoвЂ™. They were on to him by now. And so he smiled and
got another bag, of sand. He poured that sand on top of the big rocks and small
rocks, shook the jar, much of the sand went into the spaces between the big
rocks and small rocks. After he could get no more sand in, he asked once more,
вЂIs the jar full?вЂ™ And gain the class said вЂNoвЂ™. And he got some water
and poured that in. And after he could get no more water in, he stopped, he
asked the class, вЂWhat am I trying to prove? What is the purpose of this
demonstration?вЂ™

Now this was a business school, so one of the students in the class put up their
hand and said, вЂSir, it shows to us that no matter how busy our schedule, we
can always fit something more in.вЂ™ And he said, вЂNo, no, no, thatвЂ™s not
what IвЂ™m trying to show. What IвЂ™m trying to show is if you want to fit the
big rocks in, you have to fit them in first. DonвЂ™t leave them to the last,
otherwise you will never get them in.вЂ™ It was a story about priorities, what
you should really fit in to your schedule of your day, of your life first of
all.

So there are some things which many people realise are the precious stones, the
big rocks of their life, like their family, like their relationships, like their
peace of mind, whatever it is, and sometimes we leave them till last in our day,
in our week, in our life, we find we never have the opportunity to fit them in.
And thatвЂ™s one of the reasons why people donвЂ™t find happiness. Their
priorities are not correct. We should always remember that story of the stones
in the jar, and put into our life whatвЂ™s very, very important first of all.
The other things you can always fit in, but later.

Rachael Kohn: Ajahn Brahm, are there any more things that you want to fit
into your jar?

Ajahn Brahmavamso: Fit into the jar? Just peace and happiness for myself
and for others. I mean after all, thatвЂ™s whatвЂ™s most important to me in my
life, is the happiness of myself and the happiness of others, but what I found
after many years of life as a monk, I cannot distinguish between the happiness
of others and the happiness of myself. So thatвЂ™s why I go out and serve as
much as possible, to give talks, to tell stupid stories to make them laugh.

Rachael Kohn: YouвЂ™re very good at it.

Ajahn Brahmavamso: Thanks very much.

Rachael Kohn: Ajahn Brahm, weвЂ™re sitting in front of what looks to be a
fairly traditional altar I suppose, with the great Golden Buddha in the centre,
and lots of lotus flowers around. Can you explain the symbolism of this?

Ajahn Brahmavamso: Yes certainly. I mean we have at the very top there, a
golden Buddha sitting in meditation with a bit of a smile on his face, and
obviously thatвЂ™s a symbol of peace, and when people see images like that,
itвЂ™s meant to engender a very soft and gentle feeling inside of them of peace.
We have the candles on the sides of the Buddha, thatвЂ™s always been like the
symbol of wisdom, because you have to light a candle to dispel the darkness, and
for a long time that has been a symbol of enlightenment, so the wisdom is there,
no-one owns wisdom, but we need to have a candle in order to actually see it for
ourselves.

We have also on our shrine here, the lotus. The lotus is also a very potent
symbol of Buddhism. Some of the lotuses we have there are ornamental, with many,
many leaves on them, many petals, which is a symbol of the thousand petalled
lotus, which is one of my favourite symbols for meditation, because to open the
petals of a lotus, it means that the sun has to maintain its warmth on the
thousandth petal before that opens up to reveal the 999th petal, and the sun has
to stay on that thousand petal lotus a long time before it starts to open up the
innermost petals.

The innermost petals of a lotus are the most fragrant, the most subtle and the
most beautiful, and if youвЂ™re lucky, and the sun maintains its warmth long
enough, then the heart of the lotus can really open up and you can see what is
called the jewel in the heart of the lotus. That is the very old mantra in
Tibetan Buddhism, om mani padme hum, Hail to the jewel in the heart of
the lotus. ItвЂ™s a symbol for meditation because you have to have mindfulness,
unremitting, without any interference or stopping for a long time, to open up
this thousand petalled lotus of your mind and to see whatвЂ™s truly inside, the
jewel in the heart of you.

Rachael Kohn: Ajahn Brahm thank you so much for being on The Spirit of
Things.

Ajahn Brahmavamso: No trouble, thank you.

Ajahn Brahmavamso is the Abbot of the Bodhinyana Buddhist Monastery in Western Australia,
and Spiritual Director of the Buddhist Society of Western Australia. He
trained as a monk in the Thai Therevadan tradition under the guidance of
the renowned meditation master Ajahn Chah.

This interview is an
excerpt from:

"A Forest Monk and a Zen Roshi"
The Spirit of Things
National Radio
Australian Broadcasting Corporation