1 --- Upon commencing at 10:30 a.m.
2
3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is
4 now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden
5 presiding. Please be seated.
6
7 (BRIEF PAUSE)
8
9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning,
10 Commissioner.
11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good
12 morning, everybody.
13
14 JOHN FREDERICK CARSON, Resumed:
15
16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good Morning, Deputy
17 Carson.
18 THE WITNESS: Good morning.
19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good
20 morning.
21 THE WITNESS: Good morning, sir.
22
23 CONTINUED EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:
24 Q: If I could take you back to Exhibit
25 410, which is the minutes of 1995/1996; they should be --

9

1 it's a Cerlox bound document there.
2
3 (BRIEF PAUSE)
4
5 And at Tab 4, page 49.
6 A: Yes.
7 Q: The -- one (1) of the things -- and
8 I'm going to refer to the note at the top of the page,
9 August the 29th, 1995 and we spoke briefly about this the
10 last day.
11 One (1) of the things that you said that
12 you developed on August the 29th, was an org. chart and I
13 take it by that you mean an organizational chart?
14 A: Correct.
15 Q: And was that the organizational chart
16 that ultimately got -- was incorporated into Project
17 Maple?
18 A: That's correct.
19 Q: And when that organization chart was
20 first drafted, the -- did it have in it a section for
21 intelligence, do you recall, on August the 29th?
22 A: I couldn't tell you for sure. Some
23 of it was drawn out on a white board on the wall. That
24 would have been part of the criminal -- criminal side of
25 the investigation.

10

1 Q: Can you just tell us a little bit
2 more about the meeting on August the 29th; you spoke
3 briefly about it on Thursday?
4 How did you -- what kind of things
5 happened on August the 29th?
6 A: The meeting on the 29th involved a
7 small group of people. Staff Sergeant -- Detective Staff
8 Sergeant Mark Wright who represented the criminal
9 investigations part of this incident, Sergeant Grant from
10 our training unit who would be representing the
11 logistics, Constable, or actually it was Acting Sergeant
12 Ken Dean at the time representing the tactical -- tactics
13 and rescue unit and Sergeant Korosec who would represent
14 the emergency response team personnel.
15 With -- with that small group we discussed
16 a number of alternatives as a result of the discussions
17 we had the day before with Chief Coles and Superintendent
18 Parkin. And what we did was started brain storming
19 various scenarios of a potential takeover of Ipperwash
20 Provincial Park which we anticipated would be after
21 Labour Day.
22 And we had some discussion around the role
23 of the various units that would be involved but it was
24 ERT, TRU, negotiators, the criminal investigations and
25 started developing a flow chart of -- of who would be

11

1 assigned -- responsible for assignments to what task.
2 Q: And what was the basis of the plan
3 that -- that you were discussing on August the 29th?
4 A: The plan was always based on -- well,
5 actually, there was a couple of theories if you would.
6 First of all, not knowing exactly how the
7 events might unfold, one of the scenarios was that people
8 might come into the Park, attempt to occupy it and that
9 we would keep officers in the Park with those occupiers
10 while Ministry of Natural Resources would literally work
11 towards achieving or applying and securing an injunction.
12 The other scenario, the very, you know,
13 first scenario, is, you know, one (1) or two (2) people
14 come in, and are trespassing, refuse to leave and are
15 treated as routine trespassers.
16 And the last scenario being one of people
17 come in, occupy the park and for a variety of reasons,
18 whether its violence or -- or other issues, that police
19 must withdraw from the Park, secure the -- the area and
20 proceed to have Ministry of Natural Resources seek an
21 injunction and us control the outer perimeter of the
22 Park.
23 Q: So the three (3) basis working
24 premises were:
25 1. People would come in, officers would

12

1 stay. In effect you would co-habitat with the occupiers?
2 A: That's correct.
3 Q: the second was if one (1) or two (2)
4 people came in, they would be treated as trespassers,
5 arrested and removed?
6 A: Correct.
7 Q: And the third was if too -- if there
8 were a large number of people and for whatever reason it
9 was determined the officers should not remain, the
10 officers would leave?
11 A: Correct.
12 Q: And except for the one (1) or two (2)
13 individuals coming into the park and refusing to leave
14 and being treated as trespasser, with the other two (2)
15 scenarios, what was the intention of the OPP with respect
16 to an injunction?
17 A: It was always the position of the
18 Provincial Police that the Ministry of Natural Resources
19 would be required to proceed with an injunction
20 application.
21 Q: And with respect to the plan that was
22 under -- under contemplation on August the 29th, was
23 there any contemplation about simply guarding the
24 perimeter of the Park to prevent -- prevent people coming
25 in on -- when the Park was closing on September the 4th?

13

1 A: That scenario was discussed but was
2 dismissed as not -- not a viable option.
3 Q: And why wasn't it a viable option?
4 A: Well, it comes down to simple
5 logistics that while we would -- we could patrol it and
6 maintain a -- an officer presence, that probably would --
7 would deter an entry into the Park or an attempt to
8 occupy the Park, at some point in time, we have to
9 withdraw the resources.
10 I mean, once the Park is closed, we have a
11 hundred and nine (109) acres of property that is
12 literally pine trees, and at what point in time do we
13 determine it's no longer necessary to protect a hundred
14 and nine (109) acres of pine trees.
15 Q: And so that was part of your
16 thinking, that the Park, once it was closed, to maintain
17 officers there to prevent people coming in would be
18 having many officers, as you put it, guarding pine trees
19 in a -- in a closed Park?
20 A: Correct.
21 Q: Now, we spoke briefly about the
22 towers yesterday and -- I mean on Thursday and we then
23 got down to your notes of September 1st and the minutes
24 that were marked Exhibit 421. And those minutes, Deputy,
25 there may be a copy right in front of you --

14

1 A: Yes, there is.
2 Q: -- but they're also in -- it's
3 Inquiry document 3000574. And the people who attended
4 this meeting were yourself, Acting -- Acting Detective
5 Sergeant -- Staff Sergeant Wright, Sergeant Brad Seltzer;
6 and Brad Seltzer was in charge of negotiations?
7 A: That was his role there, yes.
8 Q: And, Constable Ken Deane? And, what
9 was Mr. Deane's role?
10 A: He was representing the Tactics and
11 Response Unit.
12 Q: And, Constable Stankevich -- S-T-A-N-
13 K-E-V-I-C-H?
14 A: Correct.
15 Q: And, what was his role?
16 A: He and the next member, Constable
17 Japp, were representing Logistics.
18 Q: And, Logistics contemplated what?
19 A: Well, all the -- we were -- we were
20 going to require a number of people; some of these tasks
21 actually are -- are duplicated by a number of people, so
22 it was actually almost like project teams here --
23 Q: Yes?
24 A: -- so, a number of people are
25 brought in to work on the same task. So, each -- what

15

1 happens here is each team is tasked with developing a
2 plan for their area of responsibility.
3 Q: Okay.
4 A: So, for instance, Japp, Dennis and
5 Stankevich, Seltzer -- well, not Seltzer, but those folks
6 and Sergeant Grant are all working on logistics.
7 Q: So, Staff Sergeant Dennis was also
8 logistics?
9 A: Correct.
10 Q: Sergeant -- it's Doug Babbitt -- B-A-
11 B-B-I-T-T?
12 A: Yes, sir.
13 Q: He was the media relations person?
14 A: Yes, he was the media coordinator for
15 the Western Region at that time.
16 Q: Staff Sergeant Bouwman?
17 A: He's the Detachment Commander at
18 Forest.
19 Q: Constable Speck?
20 A: He is one (1) of the Detective
21 Constables be involved in the criminal investigations
22 side.
23 Q: And, he was based in Forest?
24 A: Yes.
25 Q: And, had been based in Forest for a

16

1 long time?
2 A: Yes, most -- the majority of his
3 thirty-odd year career had been spent in this area for
4 the most part.
5 Q: Sergeant Huntley
6 A: Sergeant Huntley was one (1) of the
7 ERT leaders.
8 Q: Detective Sergeant Parent?
9 A: He was one (2) of the criminal
10 investigators.
11 Q: Sergeant Grant?
12 A: Again, he's one (1) of our training
13 Members, but he was assigned to logistics.
14 Q: So, he was there not as a trainer,
15 but as a logistics person?
16 A: Logistics, correct.
17 Q: Sergeant Bell?
18 A: He represents Intelligence.
19 Q: Sergeant McLean?
20 A: He is another ERT leader from the
21 Cayuga area.
22 Q: District Technologist K. Robson?
23 A: He's representing the Communications
24 side of the business. He is a civilian technical person
25 who provides technical support to radio as in two (2) way

17

1 radio and telephone systems.
2 Q: Sergeant Cousineau?
3 A: He's a supervisor from the Chatham
4 Com. Centre involved in the communications.
5 Q: And, Sergeant Korosec?
6 A: Korosec is one (1) of the ERT leaders
7 from the Lambton County area.
8 Q: Sergeant Vandamme, V-A-N-D-A-M-M-E?
9 A: Yes, he is another ERT leader from
10 the Woodstock area.
11 Q: So, the four (4) ERT leaders of the
12 ERT teams were there?
13 A: Correct.
14 Q: Clerk Typist Janet Vandenberg
15 (phonetic) was a civilian member of the force?
16 A: Yes.
17 Q: And, she is a typist as it's noted
18 here?
19 A: Yes, she -- she's an admin member of
20 our staff from the Forest Detachment.
21 Q: And, was she one -- did she become
22 one (1) of the scribes?
23 A: No.
24 Q: Okay. Inspector Hutchinson?
25 A: Yes, he was from the -- well then,

18

1 headquarters in downtown London with Coles; he was the --
2 looking after criminal operations.
3 Q: And, I note at this meeting there was
4 no one from the Ministry of Natural Resources at this
5 meeting --
6 A: No, sir.
7 Q: -- is that correct?
8 A: That's absolutely right.
9 Q: And, why is that, Deputy Carson?
10 A: This was specifically a planning
11 meeting for OPP resources.
12 Q: In terms of what the OPP would do
13 with respect to various scenarios that the OPP
14 contemplate?
15 A: Correct. This was -- this was to
16 brainstorm all the options and come up with a -- a plan
17 that would address any eventuality.
18 Q: And, this meeting lasted how long,
19 sir?
20 A: What happened was, in the morning --
21 we began at 9:00 in the morning, I outlined the various
22 scenarios that we had discussed on the Tuesday with the -
23 - the small group and assigned or had discussion with
24 each area of responsibility to come up with some plans or
25 options given their area of expertise.

19

1 This went on for a couple of hours which
2 is basically the -- the minutes as you see them. Each
3 area went away whether it was TRU, ERT, Communications,
4 whatever, media relations, and they were tasked with
5 coming back in the afternoon with a draft of what their
6 contribution to the plan would be.
7 Q: Okay. And perhaps we'll just -- I'll
8 ask you a few questions about the minutes, Exhibit 421.
9 The objective is noted to have contained and negotiate a
10 peaceful solution and who created that objective for
11 Project Maple?
12 A: I did.
13 Q: And why did you choose that as the
14 objective?
15 A: My experience in incident command and
16 as previously as a crisis negotiator and the various
17 training courses and scenarios I've worked on, I -- I
18 recognize it's very important that the people involved
19 understand clearly what the objective of their assignment
20 is.
21 And in my view, there was a number of
22 scenarios that were going to potentially play out and it
23 was important that every member involved understand what
24 the objective was, so as they carried out their role,
25 that they supported the objective as a team.

20

1 Q: And did the team that was assembled
2 on September 1st, was there a discussion about that
3 objective?
4 A: I certainly laid it out and ensured
5 that everyone understood it. My approach to these things
6 is that if someone has a comment or a concern or a
7 viewpoint that is different than my own, particularly at
8 the planing stage anyway, that I expect that they would
9 voice those opinions and come to some understanding.
10 Now, in this group the likes of Sergeant
11 Seltzer have been negotiators in their career as well and
12 I would suggest that this is typical of the expectation
13 we would have of our people move forward on any
14 barricaded or armed type situation that we would normally
15 encounter.
16 Q: In effect as police officers, the --
17 if you have an incident whether it's this incident or any
18 other incident, the idea is to contain it and arrive at a
19 peaceful solution to the problem?
20 A: Correct. And that -- that has been
21 my experience as a crisis negotiator and incident
22 commander for -- for many years. And that -- that is the
23 -- obviously the preferred approach.
24 Q: And is that something that's a policy
25 in -- or back in 1995 was a policy of the OPP? Was it

21

1 written down somewhere or --
2 A: I -- I would suggest that's a part of
3 the training in the course training standards of crisis
4 negotiators, ERT training, tactical training, all the
5 level of emergency response training.
6 Q: Then there's a note in the next
7 paragraph, "preliminary planning has been done"; and does
8 that simply -- what does that refer to?
9 A: Well it basically means that we have
10 done some work on the planning. I refer back to the
11 Monday and Tuesday meetings around the discussions and
12 some of the expectations that were being developed.
13 And as -- as that paragraph indicates,
14 things like the command trailer being brought to London.
15 I had already tasked some -- some assignments to be
16 undertaken prior to this meeting.
17 Q: And so Charlie is Charlie Bouwman --
18 I take it in the first paragraph?
19 A: Correct.
20 Q: And if there was an incident, the
21 Forest Detachment in affect was going to operate out of
22 the Grand Bend Detachment so that the Forest Detachment
23 could be used as the incident command post?
24 A: Correct.
25 Q: Then the next paragraph is the

22

1 scenario that you've already spoken about. If the Park
2 is taken over, possibly approximately twenty (20) people
3 will enter the Park not willing to leave; how did you
4 come up with the number twenty (20)?
5 A: It was the best guess scenario at --
6 at the very least.
7 Q: And this was a plan -- was this the
8 basic -- if the twenty (20) people would come in as you
9 outlined one (1) of the scenarios -- the MNR would then
10 ultimately get an injunction with respect to the land?
11 A: Correct, particularly if there was a
12 refusal to leave. I mean, the whole scenario was based
13 on the fact that they would be asked to leave peaceably,
14 and if they refused to leave, then we move to the next
15 step.
16 Q: Then at the bottom of the page:
17 "Try and manage the area to keep the
18 people out."
19 There's a discussion there about keeping
20 people out; can you tell us a little bit about that?
21 A: Yes, at once occupation occurs, that
22 -- what this is referring to is: try to manage the area
23 to prevent additional people to come in after the fact.
24 One of the issues there was security
25 around the fence line of the Park. The Park has a fence

23

1 all along Matheson Drive right to the -- well, close to
2 the -- to the beach area, and then there is Matheson
3 Drive, then there's another small ditch, I believe, and a
4 fence that runs the perimeter of Matheson Drive on the
5 far side of it, which is actually on military base
6 property.
7 So it was discussing the logistics or the
8 tactics that that would create.
9 Q: And I note:
10 "Some people may get through our
11 security lines no matter how hard we
12 try up to the ERT and TRU people. We
13 can secure the fence and the Park
14 itself but again, that is if it is a
15 fairly peaceful thing."
16 And what was discussed about this, and
17 what is that referring to?
18 A: Well, there was some recognition that
19 no matter how much effort we put in that, you know, other
20 people may attempt to join in, and despite our best
21 efforts, people can be pretty ingenious of how they --
22 they achieve this and short of, you know, violent
23 confrontations, it may be next to impossible to prevent
24 some people from coming in.
25 Q: Okay. And then it goes on:

24

1 "Natives in the military base do have
2 weapons. There has never been any
3 situation where the OPP have been
4 challenged with a firearm. No
5 confrontation with any native during
6 the recent fatal MBA at Ipperwash.
7 The outsiders are a -- the concern.
8 Investigative teams ident. with video
9 running all the time to identify every
10 person that is in the area.
11 TRU video printer will be needed.
12 Forest Detachment Members can identify
13 these people in the event that their
14 identity is required for charges.
15 There is a potential for violence."
16 So that you were aware and discussed with
17 your team on the Friday that the occupiers of the army
18 camp had weapons?
19 A: Yes.
20 Q: And they were hunters, you knew that,
21 you told us that last week?
22 A: Yes, and there was intelligence
23 information that they were well aware of in regards to
24 weaponry.
25 Q: And the -- but in terms of your

25

1 planning the OPP -- there had never been a incident since
2 1993 with -- between an occupier at the army camp, and an
3 OPP officer, that involved a firearm?
4 A: Correct.
5 Q: And that was part of what was being
6 discussed at this meeting?
7 A: Yes, I wanted to ensure there was a -
8 - the same level of understanding between the management
9 team that was going to be operating at this incident.
10 Q: And the -- but what you wanted to do,
11 as it's noted here, is to identify, assuming the Park was
12 taken over, everybody who went into, and out of the Park?
13 A: Yes, sir.
14 Q: And there's an item -- a line:
15 "The outsiders are the concern."
16 What was discussed about that and what was
17 the concern?
18 A: Well, it comes down to the issue that
19 the majority of occupiers who normally reside at Kettle
20 Point were people that knew many of our officers, and our
21 officers would know them.
22 And while there may be confrontations, or
23 some altercations is probably a better descriptor, I
24 really didn't believe that they would use firearms
25 against our officers; it certainly had not been our

26

1 experience.
2 However, some of the intelligence would
3 suggest that there was some other people with various
4 backgrounds, that we couldn't be so confident of, or
5 maybe there were some people in there that we would not
6 even be aware of, in the military base, that had
7 potential of maybe having different behaviours than what
8 we normally were accustomed to.
9 Q: So that with respect to the occupiers
10 who were from Kettle and Stoney Point, you knew those
11 people, you weren't concerned about them using weapons
12 against the officers?
13 A: I didn't believe they would.
14 Q: And the reference, "there is
15 potential for violence" refers to what?
16 A: Well it's a number of things. I mean
17 it's (a) with the behaviour of -- of the outsiders, that
18 could potentially escalate things and it was also in
19 relation to some of the activities that had already taken
20 place at the military base back at the end of July.
21 The issue with the bus and ramming of the
22 drill hall the military jeep and some of the behaviours
23 with vehicles that had occurred over the ongoing period
24 between the military and the occupiers, that we had to be
25 mindful that that behaviour could be brought to bear at

27

1 the Park as well.
2 Q: So, there was a -- the bus incident
3 on July 29th was a concern?
4 A: Very much so.
5 Q: And was something that you and your
6 team thought about on September the 2nd?
7 A: Yes.
8 Q: September the 1st, excuse me?
9 A: Yes. Correct.
10 Q: And that was the violence that you
11 were concerned about as opposed to violence with
12 firearms?
13 A: Well we were concerned about both.
14 We had some discussion about how the TRU team would
15 deploy and -- and trying to contain the perimeter of the
16 Park.
17 There was some discussion that we would
18 deploy personnel on Matheson Drive. And I vetoed that
19 decision or that recommendation based on the fact that it
20 would be possible for people to be hiding within the
21 military base and have some of our officers in line of
22 fire between the fence lines on Matheson Drive.
23 And they could possibly come under fire
24 and not have any way for -- for us to rescue them out of
25 there. So we were brainstorming worst case scenarios.

28

1 Q: And that was -- in the next
2 paragraph:
3 "In the event shots are fired the area
4 will have to be secured. This area
5 could grow in no time, this is the
6 worst case scenario."
7 And when you say, "this area could grow in
8 no time", what is being referred to there?
9 A: Well what it means is is we would
10 have to secure the area -- if there was a shooting, we'd
11 have to secure the area for the subsequent investigation
12 that accompanies that kind of criminal event.
13 And so it might be necessary for us to
14 secure the area that actually is part of the Military
15 Base if there is shooting that occurs from the base in
16 towards the Park.
17 Q: And when you say, "this area could
18 grow in no time" the crime scene, assuming that you were
19 considering might have to be expanded? I'm not quite
20 understanding --
21 A: Well if -- for instance, if to that
22 point -- if -- if there were shots fired from -- from the
23 Military Base, that we're not -- now we're not talking
24 about the hundred and nine (109) acres of -- of the Park,
25 we're talking about the Park and the area where the shots

29

1 were fired from.
2 But because it is then deemed to be a
3 crime scene, we have to secure all of the crime scene.
4 Even that area which occurred from within the military
5 base which wasn't our prime concern for securing at this
6 point, but it was something we had to be mindful of.
7 That was an eventuality we might face.
8 Q: "Concerns should be [it arised, but I
9 think it should be raised] now, not
10 after the fact in the event of an
11 inquest."
12 And what's that refer to, sir?
13 A: That basically goes back to my
14 earlier comments that if anyone in the room had any
15 suggestions or concerns that they felt needed to be
16 addressed, that I wanted them on the table then.
17 Q: So, your management style, if I might
18 put it, is to get input from people and listen to their
19 suggestions and if they're good suggestions, incorporate
20 them?
21 A: Often times they're better than my
22 ideas.
23 Q: And that's what you're referring to?
24 A: Yes.
25 Q: "Then TRU High Dunes is -- are

30

1 is where the fires may come from. TRU
2 will be deployed immediately if this
3 thing happens but they will be deployed
4 at Pinery Provincial Park. They will
5 be in the backup role in the initial
6 stages. Hopefully it will be a very
7 peaceful demonstration. If a shooting
8 takes place, TRU will be very
9 operational."
10 And can you tell us what the discussion
11 that's being referred to there with respect to the tactic
12 -- tactical rescue unit?
13 A: Yes. All that is indicating is that
14 the TRU team will be moved from London and they will
15 placed on standby at the Pinery Provincial Park bunkhouse
16 so that they are readily available to us if there was a
17 need to deploy them.
18 And what this is referring to, is that if
19 we're going to -- if -- if we take fire from the Military
20 Base, there's a strong possibly because of the
21 topography, that it could come from the dunes because
22 it's just the geography of -- of that locale.
23 And if shooting does take place then we
24 will have to mobilize TRU and task them to provide
25 potential rescue or -- or other tasks related to their

31

1 role.
2 Q: And the dunes are the dunes that are
3 along the shoreline on the northern part of the Army Camp
4 that's being referred to?
5 A: Yes.
6 Q: Then you go -- the notes go on:
7 "It may be necessary to have two (2)
8 TRU teams. Assessment has to be done.
9 In the initial stages we have to get in
10 there and stay close by. The
11 visibility has to be there at the
12 onset."
13 And what's that referring to? Is that the
14 TRU teams or something else?
15 A: Well, there's a couple of things.
16 The necessity of two (2) TRU teams, is each TRU team
17 operates with twelve (12) members. So, it's a matter of
18 if you have to deploy them and maintain them for any
19 length of time, you have to look at backup and fatigue
20 issues.
21 So, it may be necessary to have a second
22 TRU team there, (a) for relieving one (1) team if it's
23 going to be longer term and, (b) depending on how large
24 the scenario is, it may be necessary to have more than
25 twelve (12) members operating on the ground.

32

1 So, it's a matter of trying to gauge the
2 events as -- as they potentially could develop, is what
3 that's about.
4 In "the initial stages", that's talking
5 about being present in the Park and trying to stay close
6 by and that goes back to the cohabitation scenario.
7 Q: And that would not be with the TRU
8 team, but with ERT members?
9 A: Correct.
10 Q: And "the visibility has to be there
11 at the onset", that refers to the cohabitation in the
12 Park?
13 A: Yes, the presence of uniformed
14 officers.
15 Q: And would they be uniform officers in
16 -- I -- perhaps I could -- as I've gone through this
17 material, there are officers who are called -- referred
18 to as 'blue shirts' and blue shirts -- can you tell us
19 what that refers to?
20 A: That's officers in standard patrol
21 gear
22 Q: And then the ERT team, when it's
23 deployed as an ERT team do they wear standard uniforms or
24 something else?
25 A: Normally they're deployed in grey ERT

33

1 uniforms.
2 Q: And then the TRU team has a different
3 colour uniform?
4 A: No, ERT and TRU have the same colour
5 uniforms.
6 Q: Yes.
7 A: Actually both -- both ERT and TRU
8 have access to grey -- urban grey is what they call them,
9 or -- or greens. And depending on the scenario and the
10 topography they're working within, the unit commanders
11 may make a decision to deploy them in the colour that's
12 appropriate for the terrain.
13 Q: So, that the -- the officers that
14 were going to be in the Park, the -- on the cohabitation
15 plan, was it contemplated they would be in blues or
16 greys?
17 A: Greys.
18 Q: Grey? And that's the reference to
19 the visibility has to be there at the onset, you would --
20 A: Correct.
21 Q: -- put your -- in effect, put the ERT
22 teams into the Park along with the occupiers?
23 A: Correct.
24 Q: Then:
25 "Mark is John's assistant. He has the

34

1 knowledge of the history of this entire
2 investigation."
3 That's self-explanatory. Mark is
4 Detective Sergeant Mark Wright?
5 A: Correct.
6 Q: Then:
7 "Concern about the OPP personnel being
8 boxed in, in Provincial Park. John -
9 this has been looked at, this is being
10 addressed with the MNR as we speak."
11 Now, this is something you spoke about a
12 minute ago; how was the -- what else can you tell us
13 about this?
14 A: Well, it was also the access and
15 egress routes to the Park, itself. There's a gate in the
16 area of where the maintenance shack is located and
17 generally, other than that, it's the entranceway by the
18 gatehouse.
19 So, there was just some discussion with
20 Natural Resources of providing us with the ability to
21 have keys for various gates so that if we needed to use
22 some of the other entry points that that was available to
23 us.
24
25 (BRIEF PAUSE)

35

1 Q: Deputy Carson, up on the screen is a
2 copy of Exhibit P-40, it's a copy of the Military
3 Reserve, the Army Camp, and in the upper left-hand corner
4 is the Provincial Park and if I might -- and there's a
5 copy, actually, on your -- the desk in front of you.
6 A: Yes, I've...
7 Q: Have you got it?
8 A: Yes.
9 Q: And, there should be a black pen
10 that's on the...
11 Now, perhaps you could identify the
12 entrances that you were concerned about with respect to
13 the Provincial Park, and I might just outline this again.
14
15 Matheson Drive is this black line that
16 runs from the Army Camp Road, which is on the left-hand
17 side of this or the west side of this Exhibit P-40; it
18 runs east and then north to the beach?
19 A: Correct.
20 Q: And on each side, on the Park side,
21 back in 1995, and on the Military side there were fences
22 that -- between Matheson Drive and the Army Camp on one
23 (1) side, and the Park on the other side?
24 A: Correct. On the Park side was a
25 significant, probably about a -- if my memory serves me

36

1 correctly, but an eight (8) -- eight (8) foot chainlink
2 fence, and on the Military side, a standard farm page
3 wire fence.
4 Q: Page wire fence on the...
5 Then, the entrance to the -- where the
6 maintenance shed area was -- is, I think I've -- this
7 black line that runs north from about a third of the way
8 along Matheson Drive?
9 A: That's fair, yes.
10 Q: Could you mark that with a number "1"
11 on your copy of Exhibit P-40 and I would ask that the
12 copy that Deputy Carson is marking be marked the next
13 Exhibit, it would be 422, I believe.
14 THE REGISTRAR: P-422, Your Honour.
15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 422.
16
17 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-422: Document Number 1002409. Map
18 of Ipperwash Military Reserve
19 and Ipperwash Provincial Park
20 marked by Witness, Mr. John
21 Carson.
22
23 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:
24 Q: Then, on the east side of the Park
25 there's an entrance just -- there's a road that appears

37

1 to run east/west inside of the Park, just below the
2 number "590" and I understand there's an entrance there?
3 A: In that general vicinity, yes.
4 Q: And, could you mark that as number 2?
5
6 (BRIEF PAUSE)
7
8 Q: Then, the main gate or main entrance
9 to the Park is off Army Camp Road and it runs to -- to
10 the east off Army Camp Road; in the area there's a black
11 line, and then it says, "gate", do you see that?
12 A: Yes, sir.
13 Q: And, is that your understanding of
14 the main entrance into the Provincial Park?
15 A: That's approximately -- that's
16 correct.
17 Q: And, could you mark that with the
18 number 3?
19
20 (BRIEF PAUSE)
21
22 Then along the main entrance to the Park
23 there's a -- and it's not shown on this particular
24 drawing, but there's a gatehouse, or a kiosk; is that
25 correct?

38

1 A: Yes, there is.
2 Q: Or there was?
3 A: Yes.
4 Q: And when we see -- come later to a
5 reference to kiosk, it's the gatehouse that was located
6 on the entrance into the Park?
7 A: Yes, sir.
8 Q: And the road would then, from that
9 kiosk, ran to the main east/west road that's marked on --
10 you can see on this copy of Exhibit 422 that's on the
11 screen?
12 A: Yes, it swings around and connects
13 with it.
14 Q: Connects with that road?
15 A: Yes.
16 Q: And on this map there's a little
17 black square, and it's my understanding that represents
18 approximately where the Park store was?
19 A: Yes, sir.
20 Q: And that's your understanding as
21 well?
22 A: Yes.
23 Q: And then there's an entrance with a
24 gate at the end of this road. The road runs by the Park
25 store, and there's a gate that leads out to what we've

39

1 referred to as the Sandy Parking Lot, but it's the access
2 road to -- to the beach?
3 A: Yes.
4 Q: And you're aware of a gate being
5 there?
6 A: Yes, there's a farm-style gate if I
7 remember correctly.
8 Q: And could we mark that, it would be
9 number 3 -- number 4, excuse me. And beside that, to the
10 north of that gate, there's a turnstile; are you familiar
11 with that, sir?
12 A: Yes, there was a turnstile there.
13 Q: And that turnstile permitted people
14 to come back and forth into the Park?
15 A: Right. You could park in that Sandy
16 Parking Lot and come through on foot.
17 Q: And in the area, in the northwest
18 corner of the Park, in this area, was the -- there was
19 parking for cars, it was principally a parking lot in
20 this area?
21 A: Yes generally; that was like an
22 overflow parking area.
23 Q: For day campers or?
24 A: I think they use it for day campers,
25 but I believe they also used it for -- if say a campsite

40

1 had several vehicles and couldn't accommodate the number
2 of vehicles the camper had.
3 Q: And there was as well, in the Park, a
4 reservoir and a pump-house, is that correct?
5 A: Yes.
6 Q: And they were at the end of the road
7 that ran north from the maintenance area, and just to the
8 northwest of this intersection of -- that you could see
9 on the map?
10 A: Correct.
11 Q: And in fact there's a bridge that --
12 at this point, to the west of the pumphouse and
13 reservoir, that ran across the creek?
14 A: Yes there is.
15 Q: And we can see the bridge. And that
16 -- that's the bridge in that area that I've pointed to
17 right now?
18 A: That's right.
19 Q: And so that with respect to people --
20 the OPP officers being boxed-in in the Provincial Park,
21 and the reference to the MNR, it's simply to get keys to
22 the various gates?
23 A: Yes, and if my memory serves me
24 correctly, there was some discussion about -- I think
25 there was some concrete blocks that may have been

41

1 blocking those gates -- the gate -- particularly the gate
2 on Matheson Drive at the -- if you call -- I'm not sure
3 which way you are referring to as north here at the --
4 Q: North actually we've always referred
5 to as the top.
6 A: Okay. The gate that's in this
7 general area, on the east side of the Park then -- there
8 was --
9 Q: That was gate number 2, I think we
10 marked it.
11 A: Correct. It seems to me that we --
12 that I had the Ministry of Natural Resources remove the
13 cement blocks that were preventing access through there.
14 Q: So that during the -- the camping
15 season there were normally, it was your understanding,
16 cement blocks along the fence at -- at Gate Number 2? It
17 was normally kept closed?
18 A: Yes, it seems to me we had some
19 discussion about having that available for us to exit
20 through there if we needed to.
21 Q: And so, the cement blocks that were
22 there, you asked to have removed?
23 A: Right.
24 Q: And, perhaps before we leave Exhibit
25 422, we can just mark as number 5 the area where the

42

1 pumphouse and reservoir and the bridge is, Deputy Carson?
2 A: Yes.
3
4 (BRIEF PAUSE)
5
6 Q: Then, we'll go back to the minutes,
7 Exhibit 421. The -- there's a reference:
8 "If you're not available when this
9 occurrence occurs, it is your
10 responsible at any time -- as long as
11 this plan is on, it is your responsible
12 to find a replacement. This is an RCMP
13 model."
14 What's that referring to?
15 A: The -- the model is an org. structure
16 that was taught in the recent past, and we're speaking of
17 September 5 on major case management --
18 Q: Yes.
19 A: -- which is managing large
20 operations. So, Detective Staff Sergeant Wright had just
21 returned from that training and he was just articulating
22 that the model we were using was based on that particular
23 piece of training.
24 As far as replacement personnel, what I
25 wanted to make sure is that anyone who had a

43

1 responsibility in this plan, that if for some reason this
2 went on for weeks or months or whatever, that anytime
3 they were not readily available that they had tasked
4 someone else to fill in for them in their absence.
5 Q: So, that -- and we'll come to it
6 shortly, when you look at the organizational chart, the
7 person whose name in any particular box, had a
8 responsibility to make sure there was someone there to
9 fill in for the person if, for some reason, they were
10 unavailable?
11 A: Correct.
12 Q: And then, I take it from the next
13 note that it was discussed that it was each person's
14 responsibility to obtain additional personnel to assist
15 them?
16 A: Yes.
17 Q: "And you have to follow the
18 communication line."; what's that refer to?
19 A: Well, the -- the org. chart had a
20 chain of command there and basically it was make sure
21 that the appropriate people were aware of whatever was
22 taking place, whether it was someone replacing them or
23 whatever details they had to make sure that the chain of
24 command was followed appropriately.
25 Q: Excuse me.

44

1 (BRIEF PAUSE)
2
3 Q: Then, Mr. -- Sergeant Korosec, it
4 goes on, was to be in charge of the ERT teams?
5 A: Yes, he'd be the Coordinator.
6 Q: And, it says:
7 "The team leaders can communicate with
8 each other, but Wright and Carson have
9 to know what is going on. All
10 personnel under the team leaders should
11 be advising their team leaders of any
12 information or suggestions."
13 A: Yes?
14 Q: And, what was that about?
15 A: Just making sure that everybody was
16 in the information loop. If there was -- keeping in mind
17 that when this was occurring on the Friday, we don't know
18 when a deployment would actually occur. I mean, we're --
19 we are trying our best to strategize what we might think,
20 however, some things don't necessarily work that way.
21 So, Korosec was going to be the overall
22 coordinator or ERT teams, but depending on the timelines,
23 it was hard to say who the first teams that would be
24 called out might be. So, it was just a matter of having
25 points of contact so we had clear lines as to who was

45

1 responsible for what and that everybody was up-to-date
2 with whatever was the most current information.
3 Q: And the -- it refers to the chart
4 again, so that people have to follow the chart and then
5 there's a note:
6 "Team leaders have to know what is
7 going on. The rationale behind this is
8 so that the team leaders can become the
9 think tank."
10 Is that correct?
11 A: Yes.
12 Q: Yes?
13 A: Yes, sir.
14 Q: Now, I note that Inspector Linton's
15 name doesn't appear on this document.
16 A: No, sir.
17 Q: And Inspector Linton ultimately
18 became the incident commander for the night shift, if I
19 might put it that way, when you were off duty; is that
20 correct?
21 A: Correct.
22 Q: And why wasn't the incident commander
23 for the night shift -- how would -- how do you refer to
24 the incident commander when you're off duty?
25 A: Yes, he was the -- he was the back up

46

1 incident commander when -- when I was off. You're
2 absolutely correct.
3 That day, I'm not sure if he was available
4 that day or not. Him and I met. I had certainly
5 contacted him subsequent to this meeting to apprise him
6 of the plans and what the strategy was.
7 Now, I'm not sure -- I'm not sure if he
8 was readily available on that Friday or not or if there
9 was some reason he was unable to attend, but I know him
10 and I had spoke between the Friday and -- and the Monday,
11 we had some significant discussion.
12 In fact, I'd have to check my notes closer
13 here, but I believe him and I actually met somewhere over
14 the weekend and had some discussion to make sure he was
15 up to date.
16 Q: It would have been -- would you agree
17 with me it would have been helpful, though, if Inspector
18 Linton had been able to attend this meeting?
19 A: It would be helpful. It probably
20 would have assisted him somewhat in his role.
21 Q: But, you can't remember why he wasn't
22 there? Did -- was he invited? Did you know at this
23 point on September 1st he was going to be the backup
24 incident commander?
25 A: Yes, that was a discussion I had had

47

1 with Chief Coles on the Monday when we had the original
2 meeting as, you know, for him. I asked him to let me
3 know who the backup incident commander might be.
4 Q: And then there's a note at the bottom
5 about, again, people being -- understanding the role and
6 you would have to come through the commander or assistant
7 commander.
8 I take it you're the commander?
9 A: Correct.
10 Q: And Detective Sergeant Mark Wright is
11 the assistant commander?
12 A: That's correct.
13 Q: And then you wanted:
14 "Before we leave today, each person
15 will be giving back to Carson what they
16 think their role is."
17 And what's that refer to?
18 A: Well each unit was -- left the
19 meeting and they went away and prepared a plan in respect
20 to their area of responsibility. They were to come back
21 and -- which they did, after lunch, and -- that day, or
22 later in the afternoon, I think it was around two o'clock
23 or whatever, before the end of the day in any event, and
24 presented their plan for my approval.
25 And as a result of that, I -- I approved

48

1 or asked for modifications in -- in the various
2 disciplines and that became the -- the layers of the
3 plan.
4 Q: Okay.
5 A: I'm not sure I'm clear.
6 Q: No, I understand. We'll come back to
7 that because I'm going to go through those layers. But,
8 if I could just...
9
10 (BRIEF PAUSE)
11
12 Q: Let me take you to a document, just
13 before organizational plan, but it's document 2004328.
14
15 (BRIEF PAUSE)
16
17 Q: And at page 2, this is a document
18 entitled, Coordinated Investigation Team CIT
19 Organizational Chart?
20 A: Yes.
21 Q: And...
22
23 (BRIEF PAUSE)
24
25 Q: Now, this is a copy of the chart.

49

1 Can you tell me, this chart -- copy of the chart -- does
2 not have on it the intelligence box that we'll come to
3 see subsequently in the -- the final Project Maple?
4 A: Right.
5 Q: But, is this the chart that was
6 created on the Monday in your initial meeting by -- I
7 think it was by Detective Sergeant -- I think -- I
8 anticipate the evidence will be that Detective Sergeant
9 Mark Wright, as you say, had come back from a training
10 program and had the -- some software that created this
11 kind of an organizational chart very easily?
12 A: That -- that would have occurred, a
13 meeting, on the Tuesday.
14 Q: On the Tuesday --
15 A: Yeah.
16 Q: -- August the 29th?
17 A: Right.
18 Q: And --
19 A: And, I'm not sure that it was as --
20 how would I put it, as clean a chart as this, the Tuesday
21 chart. My -- my notes here indicate that I received a
22 fax on September the 2nd, which is a Saturday, from the
23 DHQ in Chatham, so that some of the actual boxes and
24 squares as you see them there were completed later in the
25 week.

1 District?
2 A: Correct.
3 Q: And, that's the way it ultimately
4 played out?
5 A: Yes.
6 Q: And, the negotiator team has listed
7 at this point, Sergeant Seltzer?
8 A: Yes, he's the team leader.
9 Q: And, in effect, you'll have -- you
10 have in front of you a copy of a little book called,
11 Project Maple; it's in the small -- the -- the small
12 folder.
13 But the ultimate plan that was --
14 organizational chart that was approved is the same as
15 this, but there's a box, Intelligence Detective Sergeant
16 Bell, that's drawn into the left of the line from primary
17 investigator down towards the scene investigators; is
18 that correct?
19 A: Right.
20 Q: And when was that -- that box appears
21 to have been drawn in -- the box itself in -- in hand as
22 opposed to a computer generated, do you know when that
23 box was added, Deputy Carson?
24 A: My best guess is when I -- and I'd
25 have to look at the other copies of the Project Maple.

53

1 The copy you're referring to is -- I'll just double check
2 here. Yes, the copy you're referring to is a copy of my
3 original copy.
4 Q: Yes.
5 A: So, that would have been added on the
6 Saturday when I received the fax from Chatham and prior
7 to the binders being assembled which was Saturday
8 afternoon.
9 Q: Okay. And can you tell me why there
10 wasn't an intelligence box in the chart originally?
11 A: I don't think there was any
12 particular reason.
13 Q: Then if we could go back to the
14 minutes. It goes on to say at page 3:
15 "Situation variables will arise within
16 the operation. It is up to each person
17 to expect to deal with all situations.
18 You have to modify your thinking and
19 act accordingly. Each person is to --
20 attending with the problem and an
21 answer to that problem.
22 Solutions have to be thought of prior
23 to letting the Commander know."
24 And that's simply to avoid -- you wanted
25 everyone to think for themselves but try to come up with

54

1 solutions and not delegate up the solution to you as
2 incident commander.
3 A: Well I think this is subsequent to
4 the earlier discussion about the team leaders being part
5 of the think tank and that I wanted them to come up with
6 solutions so that we were discussing solutions, not just
7 discussing problems.
8 Q: All right. And then uniformed
9 members were going to come under Sergeant Korosec and the
10 ERT leaders?
11 A: Correct.
12 Q: And they were going to be members
13 other than the ERT team member?
14 A: Yes.
15 Q: As opposed to -- the uniformed
16 members that are being referred to here, were they part
17 of the ERT team or separate officers?
18 A: Which note are you referring to, sir?
19 Q: On page 3, Deputy Carson -- the one
20 (1), two (2), 3rd line -- paragraph down.
21 A: Oh, yes, correct. That would be if
22 we were using uniform members outside of the ERT teams,
23 that the ERT team leaders would coordinate their
24 activities.
25 Q: The plan as it was being discussed

55

1 however on September the -- the 1st was that the officers
2 would respond would be all ERT team officers?
3 A: Yes. That -- that was our preference
4 is that we could use those assigned ERT team people
5 specifically and not have to impose or -- well, the
6 Detachment still has a Detachment to run so we were
7 hoping that we could avoid having to use all the local
8 resources.
9 Q: Okay. And the four (4) ERT teams
10 would be a total of sixty (60) officers; fifteen (15)
11 officers per ERT team?
12 A: Correct.
13 Q: Then there's a note:
14 "Kids and women may be used on the
15 front line by the Natives."
16 And what was being referred to there?
17 A: Oh, the other circumstances we had
18 watched was the issues at the Military Base when the
19 school bus incident took place in late July and the
20 exercise in 1993 with the toll booth incident, there had
21 been children involved so we were discussing here that
22 women and children may very well be involved in this.
23 So, it just -- we were just having a
24 discussion about how we're understanding and prepared for
25 that eventuality.

56

1 Q: And when you refer to the bus
2 incident in July and women and children, what are you
3 referring to there?
4 A: The fact that -- that women and
5 children were in and amongst the occupiers when they were
6 dealing with the Military, and when our personnel
7 attended.
8 Q: Then the next paragraph:
9 "An -- an inventory has been done of
10 all the policewomen in the area. We
11 will be using a lot of women, one (1)
12 girl and one (1) guy will be put
13 together."
14 What's that refer to?
15 A: Well, if we were going to be in -- in
16 the cohabitation role, I guess, and if there were issues
17 where they were a lot of women occupiers, and children,
18 that we wanted to make sure that we capitalised on using
19 our female officers, if that was, in fact, the case.
20 So that's going to be something that was
21 subject to discretion at the -- the time of the event.
22 Q: Then there's a note:
23 "Suggestion - passive situation -
24 Korosec could look after that. Serious
25 situation - another sergeant could look

57

1 after this problem."
2 And what's that refer to?
3 A: I'm not sure what that is,
4 specifically.
5 Q: And then there's a note that -- with
6 respect to primary investigation is going to be Detective
7 Sergeant Richardson.
8 A: Yeah.
9 Q: Is that correct?
10 A: That's right.
11 Q: And file coordinator. What is the
12 role of file coordinator?
13 A: Well, it's controlling all the -- the
14 reports that relate to any particular investigation; so
15 you may have things like the actual occurrence reports
16 that need to be recorded, you may have Crown Briefs that
17 need to be prepared, if there are arrests there may be
18 Show Cause Briefs, necessary to be developed, there may
19 be search warrants necessary. It's -- so it's a
20 coordination of all the files relative to a case.
21 Q: And we'll come back to him, but he --
22 did -- this paragraph identifies a number of tasks that
23 Detective Sergeant Richardson was responsible for?
24 A: Yes.
25 Q: And including, as you said, the

58

1 arrest packages -- packages for the investigation team.
2 "Chart has been set up by Parent to be
3 used by everyone on the ground. It
4 will -- this will give us to what your
5 authority is in the event ERT is put in
6 the Park."
7 Can you tell us what that's referring to,
8 Deputy Carson?
9 A: I believed he developed a chart
10 identifying various charges that may apply in certain
11 circumstances.
12 Q: Okay, now it says:
13 "Karen Shaw will be the scribe. She
14 will follow Inspector Carson around."
15 And can you just explain to us who, at
16 this particular time Karen Shaw was, and what the role of
17 a scribe -- the scribe was?
18 A: Karen Shaw was one of our
19 administrative assistants working out of the District
20 Headquarters at Chatham at that time, and she -- she was
21 going to be appointed as the scribe.
22 The scribe duties are to literally shadow
23 the Incident Commander, basically take the notes of an
24 Incident Commander. Just a little history there, once
25 upon a time, an Incident Commander would write their own

59

1 notes, but that becomes very problematic when there's a
2 number of issues happening simultaneously and people
3 talking, that it's hard to capture the essence of -- of
4 the notes.
5 So, in fact, we were going to appoint a
6 scribe and that's what we had been doing for a number of
7 years, actually, in any of our major incidents, is that
8 someone would take the responsibility of being the
9 scribe, and take the information that the Incident
10 Commander desired to be captured for his notes.
11 Q: And when you say, "what the Incident
12 Commander desired to be captured for his notes", what do
13 you mean by that?
14 A: Well, normally what I do, my practice
15 now -- just to put it in context, you know, the scribe
16 process has kind of evolved over the years, but at that
17 point in time when I would go to an incident, I would --
18 someone would be assigned as scribe, quite often it was a
19 constable just happened to be in the wrong place at the
20 wrong time, but what I normally would do is assign them;
21 they would be given a pad of paper and say, if I give
22 direction to anyone, or if anyone provides me with
23 information in regards to what's going on here, I expect
24 you to capture that, and at the end of the day, that
25 becomes the notes.

60

1 There's no exact science to that, it's a
2 very daunting task at times, quite frankly. You find
3 scribes who are better at it than others, and you find
4 sometimes that some people are better able to capture the
5 essence of the conversations; because what happens is you
6 get into some of these meetings, you get several people
7 who are discussing a matter and there is, you know,
8 trying to get the context of what's being said that's
9 important to the Incident Commander.
10 Q: And how would the individual scribe
11 know what was important to the Incident Commander unless
12 you told the scribe -- pointed it out to the scribe?
13 A: Generally speaking a couple of
14 things; I -- I normally tell the scribe, in those days,
15 that if anybody provides me information that I'm making
16 decisions on, or if I give direction, I want that
17 captured.
18 Those -- those are the things that were
19 particularly important. Sometimes information would come
20 in from various sources, whether it's over the radio or
21 whether it's over the -- by telephone, and the scribe may
22 be directed to, you know, make a note of this, for
23 instance.
24 And I think back to some of my other
25 tactical calls I've done over the years. For instance,

61

1 if a tactical team wanted permission to deploy a certain
2 technique, well I'd make sure I'd say to the scribe, make
3 sure you capture that I've given approval for them to do
4 a, b, c.
5 Q: And there were, as we will see when
6 we come to the scribe notes, scribe notes that were typed
7 and scribe notes that were handwritten and then typed.
8 Back in 1995, how did the -- how did it
9 work that -- how did the typed -- the handwritten scribe
10 notes become typed scribe notes?
11 A: The -- most of the scribes would --
12 would do it by hand, or often do it by hand, depending on
13 their level of expertise with the computer. Now, in '95
14 computers weren't -- we didn't have the proliferation on
15 them as we do today.
16 So I -- I believe we had one laptop in the
17 command post as opposed to -- as we see, in this room,
18 today. It just wasn't -- we just didn't have the access
19 to the number of units.
20 Anyway a long story short, is to say that
21 most often the -- the scribe would do them by hand, and
22 then either type them in themselves, into a log, or have
23 someone do that for them.
24 In this particular case, Karen Shaw, I
25 believe that she took some by hand, and also she did some

62

1 typing. Of course she's a -- a administrative staff who
2 has some significant typing skills, as opposed to say a
3 constable who is a two-finger typists. So it -- it can
4 vary drastically from one scribe to another quite
5 frankly.
6 Q: And back in 1995 at this incident, as
7 we will see, there were a number of different scribes
8 during the day and during the night.
9 A: Yes.
10 Q: Different scribes?
11 A: Yes. Oh, yes.
12 Q: And as Incident Commander, were you
13 given the handwritten notes or the typed version of the
14 notes?
15 A: I got a copy of the typed version. I
16 -- I had never reviewed the handwritten notes prior to, I
17 would say the recent past. I've seen some of the
18 handwritten notes, but I did not review handwritten notes
19 at all during this event.
20 Q: And the scribe notes, once typed up,
21 and we'll get to them but where did they, for example,
22 the events of September 4th, where were the scribe notes
23 kept; once they were typed, where were they kept
24 physically?
25 A: Well I -- to this day I've kept one

63

1 copy that as -- as they were produced. I had a binder
2 that was a running copy of them, and there were several
3 copies made for -- one for the command post, obviously,
4 and I kept one for myself, and to this day, I've kept
5 that one copy.
6 Q: And so the -- when you -- as they
7 were produced, thinking back to September of 1995, can
8 you -- how was that process; how often would you get a
9 scribe note having been typed up, and how often would
10 that happen?
11 A: Again I'm going by memory, but they
12 were done daily or by the shift. Like we certainly
13 wanted them fairly up to date, so like it wasn't two (2)
14 days later, it was within -- within hours normally.
15 Whenever there was any opportunity the scribes were
16 trying to maintain that log.
17 So they -- they could have been, you know,
18 printed out several times during the day in fact. But,
19 you know, I -- I can't say in all certainty that happened
20 everyday, or not everyday, depending on how busy and how
21 talented the scribe was to be able to work that in.
22 Q: And when you received the pages of
23 the scribe notes from the typed page of the notes, what,
24 if anything, did you do with them before you put them in
25 your binder?

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1 A: They were just put directly into the
2 binder. During those days, September the 5th and the
3 6th, quite frankly I didn't have an opportunity to go
4 back and review them.
5 Q: So that when you received them, you
6 simply put them in the binder, you didn't look at them
7 and review them?
8 A: No. The only thing I did is I -- I
9 certainly viewed or -- or was aware of the highlights of
10 certain events. Say, for instance, overnight certain
11 things would happen, I would certainly focus in on -- on
12 -- on events, but to go through it, page by page, and
13 review all the notes, I -- I didn't have an opportunity,
14 or I didn't do that.
15 Q: And, I understand, since 1995, th
16 scribe position has become much more, for want of a
17 better word, formal; there's now a scribe course?
18 A: Yes, that's correct. We have -- it
19 has developed over time, and certain individuals have
20 volunteered to be scribes who have the prerequisite
21 skills, and there is training provided for them to have
22 an understanding of what is required of them.
23 Q: Then, if we go back to Exhibit 421,
24 and just go through the discussion on September the 1st,
25 there is a person that we've already spoken of --

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1 identified of as a Records Controller, she's to create
2 documents -- then Media Liaison. The role of Media
3 Liaison, Doug Babbitt -- Sergeant Babbitt -- was it's
4 scribed here, will be script writer. Can you tell us a
5 little bit more about his role?
6 A: Well, he's the media contact, it
7 would be up to him to coordinate all the personnel that
8 were required to assist there, and work with the media
9 outlets in regards to the media relations role.
10 Q: And, we'll come to -- there's a
11 little more description in -- in Project Maple. Then
12 there's a note:
13 "It's everyone's responsibility to find
14 their assistant."
15 I take it that refers to everyone
16 generally that were part of the plan?
17 A: Yes. They -- they were each
18 responsible for tasking additional personnel, as
19 necessary, to carry out their role.
20 Q: And then, at the top of the next
21 page, page 4:
22 "This could be a major drain of our
23 resources."
24 And, what does that refer to?
25 A: Well, the -- the paragraph starts

66

1 with a chart as a -- as ongoing whenever this incident
2 occurs, and it would -- we certainly had no appreciation
3 of how long it might last.
4 And that while we had anticipated using,
5 for instance, the four (4) ERT teams in Southwest
6 Ontario, if this was a protracted incident, it's possible
7 that we'd have to consider resources far beyond that
8 geography, and that it had the potential of being a
9 strong or a -- a major draw on our human resources, you
10 know, beyond the jurisdiction of Southwest Ontario.
11 Q: And, at this point on September 1st,
12 what was your thinking, if you can recall, as to how
13 long, assuming an occupation took place, how long it
14 would last?
15 A: Well, if it went into an occupation
16 similar to -- I mean, we were already two (2) years into
17 the issue with the Military Base around that particular
18 incident, and so I certainly wasn't under any
19 preconceived notion this was going to be a -- a six (6)
20 hour event, but I had no idea because -- of how long it
21 may go, because the majority of the time period would be
22 controlled by the ability of the Minister of Natural
23 Resources to get an injunction if that's the route that
24 had to be taken given the circumstances.
25 Q: Okay. Then, there's a note:

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1 "Intelligence will be under Trevor.
2 Analysts will be under Trevor as well.
3 That person will not have any definite
4 responsibilities, will be computer
5 literate to assist with intelligence
6 information to be entered into a
7 database. This will be Jimmy Dyke. And
8 intelligence, is also referred to in
9 Project Maple, and the Intelligence
10 officer -- this is that -- under
11 communication -- under investigation,
12 Deputy Carson, operational plan,
13 Primary Investigator - File
14 Coordinator."
15 Do you see that in your copy?
16 A: Yes, sir.
17 Q: Then it says:
18 "Intelligence officer, Detective
19 Sergeant Don Bell has been identified
20 for this position and will report daily
21 to the primary investigator. He will
22 attempt to identify the demographics of
23 CFB Ipperwash and assist to gather
24 information on the identifies of
25 persons -- of persons unknown to local

68

1 members."
2 So, was -- Don Bell was going to be the
3 primary gatherer of information?
4 A: Correct.
5 Q: And he would report to Trevor
6 Richardson who was the primary investigator?
7 A: Yes.
8 Q: And then is it fair to say that there
9 wasn't an analyst engaged during the course of Project
10 Maple, September 4th, 5th and 6th of 1995?
11 A: I guess I would have to agree there
12 was not an analyst engaged. If -- if you're taking it
13 from the perspective of most intelligent -- intelligence
14 style projects, an intelligence analyst does a couple of
15 things.
16 But, what we were talking about here is an
17 individual who would develop a list or identify those who
18 are involved in the Park. So normally an analyst is used
19 to try to forecast or identify ongoing behaviours in the
20 criminal world so to speak by connecting associations of
21 one (1) person to another to another to see if he can
22 start developing patters.
23 But what -- this incident is a little
24 different that a standard intelligence led investigation.
25 So it's important to understand that, you know, the

69

1 analyst would be in this case, I believe Jim Dyke was
2 identified -- was more to identify a list of people
3 involved as opposed to trying to understand an ongoing or
4 a potential investigation.
5 Q: And you use the phrase 'intelligence
6 led investigation'. Was that a phrase that was known and
7 used ten (10) years ago back in 1995?
8 A: Not in that particular way. I would
9 suggest there was a number of intelligence led
10 investigations where for example, organized crime where
11 our intelligence units within the OPP and other police
12 organizations would work, you know, towards issues with
13 suspects of various criminal organizations.
14 So, while the term wasn't used in the
15 manner it is today, the -- the work was being done in a
16 similar fashion.
17 Q: And the information that -- the
18 intelligence information to be entered into a database,
19 is it fair to say that back in September 4th, 5th and
20 6th, that wasn't done?
21 Jimmy Dyke didn't have an intelligence
22 database? Do you know what --
23 A: That's -- that's probably fair
24 enough. Probably we had a -- a sheet of -- a manual
25 sheet of list of names of people who were identified in

70

1 the Park that in fact was more likely the case.
2 Q: And in fact as you say, the -- the
3 job of -- of the intelligence was simply to identify who
4 was in the Park so that you would -- assuming they went
5 into the Park so you'd know who was there?
6 A: Correct. And -- and the other piece
7 that we would expect to be done is if there was any
8 information being gleaned anywhere of sympathizers or
9 supporters from beyond the local area that might be
10 coming to the area.
11 Q: That frankly, isn't it fair to say
12 that was your primary concern, with people who were not
13 from Kettle or Stoney Point; who weren't from this area
14 but were from somewhere else?
15 A: In regards to behaviour, it would be,
16 yes.
17 Q: And in terms of, back in 1995, while
18 we're at this point, the -- what was your view of the use
19 of intelligence in an operation such as this?
20 A: Well, this -- this particular
21 situation was a little different than most because here
22 we're dealing with an incident involving the majority of
23 people from Kettle Point.
24 Most of the people involved, the officers
25 from Forest whether we're talking about the likes of Mike

71

1 Hudson or Mike Beacock or -- well, and Vince and Luke
2 George who certainly had lived in the area their whole
3 life, the people involved were, for the lack of a better
4 term, were fairly known as local people. So, the
5 intelligence information didn't really feed into the
6 incident and -- and the management of the incident in the
7 way it might in some other examples.
8 For instance, if I needed to know certain
9 things, I probably could ask George Speck because he
10 would probably know the individual personally and
11 probably knew where the person lived and probably could
12 tell you which -- where he lived at and probably a lot of
13 the information around their family members and that kind
14 of information was -- was fairly readily available to me.
15 So, when it comes to the intelligence
16 side, the most important thing that they were doing was
17 (a) identifying who was in there at any given time and
18 (b) was there any movement from outsiders that I need to
19 be concerned of.
20 Q: And, as you said, if you needed to
21 know information, you could ask people like George Speck
22 or others or make calls yourself?
23 A: In fact, I have done that.
24 Q: And, you did that during this
25 incident?

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1 A: Yes.
2 Q: And, during -- is it fair to say
3 that, at least with respect to this incident, that your
4 view was that you would not make an operational decision
5 based on intelligence information?
6 A: Correct.
7 Q: And, why is that?
8 A: Because I felt I had -- the
9 information I had was as sound as I could hope for
10 because in my view, I was able to -- for the most part
11 when we had concerns I was able to send people over
12 there.
13 And particularly up until the occupation
14 of the Ipperwash Park it was not uncommon for me to ask
15 Mark Wright or Staff Sergeant Bouwman to go to the Base
16 and see if you can find, you know, so-and-so and see if
17 we can get some discussion on this particular issue and
18 quite often that, in fact, was the case.
19 Q: So, prior to the takeover of the
20 Park, you were operating -- what had happened was, as you
21 say, if you needed to know something you would ask
22 somebody to go either -- to go to the Army Camp and ask
23 somebody?
24 A: Correct.
25 Q: And, the person you would ask would

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1 be one (1) of the occupiers?
2 A: Right.
3 Q: Perhaps that would be a good time for
4 the morning break?
5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. Thank
6 you.
7 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess
8 for fifteen (15) minutes.
9
10 --- Upon recessing at 12:00 p.m.
11 --- Upon resuming at 12:15 p.m.
12
13 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now
14 resumed. Please be seated.
15
16 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:
17 Q: Deputy Carson, if I could take you
18 back to Exhibit 421, Inquiry Document 3000574, and if I
19 could take you -- we were talking about the intelligence.
20 The next note is administrator Bill
21 Dennis. He was responsible for logistics, feeding the
22 officers and other things as we will see?
23 A: Correct.
24 Q: And the operational plan that's
25 referred to is project maple when it's ultimately put

74

1 together?
2 A: Correct.
3 Q: And why everyone will get a copy of
4 the operational plan, you're referring to the various
5 leaders of the various -- the leaders of -- and
6 responsible for various tasks.
7 A: Yeah, all the responsible managers.
8 Q: And then the note says:
9 "if the ERT goes in and they take the
10 place, we will move at least two (2)
11 ERT team units inside the perimeter of
12 the Park. Stan and TRU will come up
13 with this part of the operational plan.
14 The area around the park will be
15 cordoned off with ERT as well as road
16 blocks by uniform. Stan will be the
17 overall person in charge of ERT. There
18 will be two (2) ERT sergeants, one
19 inside the Park and one outside.
20 The sergeant outside of the Park could
21 also look after the uniform members
22 outside the Park.
23 This is going to be a tough job. With
24 the command trailer you would be able
25 to commute -- communicate with the

75

1 trailer. Communications should not be
2 a problem."
3 And I take it that what's being described
4 here, and correct me if I'm wrong, is a cohabitation,
5 where you had ERT team members in the Park along with the
6 occupiers?
7 A: That's accurate, yes.
8 Q: And then:
9 "Five (5) sergeants should be able to
10 coordinate the uniform members, keeping
11 the ERT sergeants on the lay of the
12 land. Should be able to cover all the
13 uniformed members needs. Steve
14 McDonald could be used as the new
15 sergeant."
16 And there, you're referring to uniform
17 members as all of the police officers, the ERT teams as
18 well as others?
19 A: Yes, that's correct.
20 Q: And then:
21 "Even if this is peaceful, the best we
22 could hope for is to see a Court Order
23 twenty-four (24) hours later. While
24 we're waiting for the injunction, the
25 ERT and TRU will be there, working

76

1 operation -- operational [excuse me].
2 The reason for containing is we are
3 trying to stop any additional people
4 coming into the Park.
5 We cannot stop anyone from going right
6 up to the fence of the Ipperwash
7 Provincial Park. This includes the
8 press when there is no injunction."
9 And this paragraph, again, refers to a
10 cohabitation between the Ontario Provincial Police and
11 the occupiers?
12 A: That's right.
13 Q: And:
14 "If someone crosses the road block,
15 there is an obstruction. As your outer
16 perimeter moves out, the obstruction is
17 still there."
18 And what does that refer to?
19 A: It just -- it just speaking to the
20 fact that once it's necessary to put road blocks in place
21 and having some discussion about the offence of
22 obstruction.
23 Q: So, that -- if there's a -- does that
24 refer to -- and if -- if you have a road block and a
25 person is told they cannot go beyond the road block, they

77

1 go beyond the road block, then they can be arrested for
2 the -- the idea was to arrest them for obstruction?
3 A: Correct.
4
5 (BRIEF PAUSE)
6
7 Q: And had you considered at this point
8 in time the possibility of new people entering via the
9 Army Camp?
10 A: That was not an option.
11 Q: What do you mean it wasn't an option?
12 A: We didn't believe we had safe access
13 in and out through the Military Base at all. That was
14 not considered --
15 Q: No I think I'm -- I misspoke myself.
16 Were you concerned, and did you consider, trying to
17 prevent the possibility of people going into the Army
18 Camp, going from the Army Camp to the Provincial Park?
19 A: Oh. We certainly were of the -- we
20 were -- conceptions that there would be people trying to
21 come through in that particular -- using that road, yes.
22 Q: And could you prevent that in your
23 view?
24 A: It was going to be difficult.
25 Q: And you would have to prevent it at

78

1 Matheson Drive, the perimeter around the Provincial Park?
2 A: Correct.
3 Q: Is it fair to say you could not
4 prevent people going into the Army Camp if they wished to
5 go into the Army Camp?
6 A: No. We thought we had no authority
7 to prevent that?
8 Q: Then there's a reference to, "Canine
9 is also required."l; that's canine division -- a police
10 officer with --
11 A: The dog handlers.
12 Q: -- with a dog. And, "ambulance
13 services is also required."
14 And what was discussed with respect to
15 ambulance services?
16 A: Well, part of the issue there is in
17 the Forest area -- I mean, that we -- we -- it's just an
18 anticipation that ambulance services could be required.
19 But the ambulance service in the Forest area, I'm sure
20 you've already heard this, while it's available twenty-
21 four (24) hours, the -- the crews for the ambulance
22 service have to be called out to respond to calls after
23 certain hours.
24 So, I was aware of that having worked --
25 worked in this area for some time and I believe I was

79

1 apprising the -- the team of that logistic.
2 Q: So that -- who was responsible, do
3 you recall for arranging ambulances if they were
4 required?
5 A: Off the top of my head I don't know.
6 But it seems to me that's something one of the logistics
7 members would have probably been tasked with.
8 Q: Then marine -- the plan was to have a
9 marine boat brought in from either Forest, Kincardine and
10 Sombra or Sombra?
11 A: Correct,
12 Q: And the H.A. Graham came in I think
13 from Kincardine ultimately?
14 A: Yes. Well, it was used part of the
15 time, yes.
16 Q: Part of the time. And it says:
17 "This will cordon off the area. The
18 water of the lake, off the lake is very
19 shallow. It is not exactly a docking
20 area and therefore not accessible."
21 Was one of the purposes of a marine boat
22 to try to prevent people coming into the Provincial Park
23 from the lake?
24 A: Yes. We wanted to monitor the
25 potential water access. There is a boat -- a boat ramp

80

1 there where you could drive a small boat up to that
2 point. But generally speaking, the water directly off
3 the -- off the Provincial Park is quite shallow.
4 Q: Okay.
5 "The two (2) UC officers will be
6 leaving Monday."
7 I take it that's undercover officers?
8 A: Correct.
9 Q: "Monday evening at 6:00 pm. all
10 campers have to leave the Park as the
11 Park completely closes. This is
12 expected when this happens. Number 1
13 District ERT is in there now and they
14 are not leaving until Tuesday."
15 And what does that refer to?
16 A: It simply means that the Park closes
17 Monday evening and the ERT team from Number 1 District or
18 the Chatham team will be staying doing patrols until
19 Monday -- until Tuesday morning.
20 Q: And was Sergeant Korosec part of
21 Number 1 District ERT team?
22 A: Yes, he's the team leader.
23 Q: And then the next paragraph:
24 "The reason we are getting the
25 injunction as it gives us all the

81

1 criminal code charges. MNR is
2 literally prepared to go into Court in
3 a minute's notice. MNR has clear
4 title."
5 And what are you referring to there?
6 A: Well, we were just talking about the
7 fact that the Ministry of Natural Resources will proceed
8 with an injunction if there is an occupation and that the
9 legalities of having an injunction provides us some, not
10 only direction but contravention of the injunction
11 provides us some criminal code support and how we manage
12 the criminal code offences.
13 Q: For violating -- presumable for
14 violating a court order.
15 A: Correct.
16 Q: And then it goes on:
17 "All the people who have a command role
18 will be notified when the Natives enter
19 the Park immediately. This chart moves
20 as to what we have occurring at that
21 time. Each person will have to make
22 decisions as to where we are now.
23 Charlie will have to notify everyone at
24 Force Detachment to leave when this
25 incident occurs.

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1 The OPP thinks the Natives are not
2 aware how prepared the OPP are. The
3 trailer will move into Forest and it
4 will automatically become the command
5 post."
6 And what was being referred to and what
7 was the discussion around this point?
8 A: This is just, again, an up -- making
9 sure that everybody's on the same page and understands
10 exactly what -- what occur should an occupation commence,
11 that Staff Sergeant Bouwman would move his people to the
12 Grand Bend Detachment to operate from that facility and
13 the mobile command trailer from General Headquarters
14 would be moved into Forest and it would be used as the
15 command post for this operation.
16 Q: And, you didn't -- it was discussed
17 at the meeting that you didn't think that the occupiers
18 or potential occupiers were aware how prepared you were?
19 A: Correct.
20 Q: Then, just down the page:
21 "Everyone will be staying in the Forest
22 area; pack a bag. Twelve (12) hours on
23 and twelve (12) hours off. This will
24 be the plan."
25 And, that simply refers to twelve (12)

83

1 hour shifts?
2 A: Correct.
3 Q: And, you expected people to be there
4 for awhile, so they needed a bag of clothes?
5 A: Correct.
6 Q: Then, as you said earlier, there was
7 a break and then in the afternoon people came back with
8 their suggestions for the plan?
9 A: Yes.
10 Q: And, I take it there's -- we went --
11 go through these, there's an indication the flow of
12 communications goes both ways, it goes up and back to the
13 same way, so instructions, questions or information
14 would come up to you through the chain of command as
15 developed in the chart and it would go back down the same
16 way?
17 A: Correct.
18 Q: That was the theory?
19 A: Yes.
20 Q: The practise didn't work out quite
21 that way?
22 A: Sometimes there's a bit of change in
23 the plans.
24 Q: Then, as we go through there's a --
25 items identified with respect to each of the areas:

84

1 Communications, Crime, Administration; things that needed
2 to be done?
3 A: Yes. And --
4 Q: And, under --
5 A: -- basically what this does is, each
6 area discusses what they are developing so that all the
7 other managers have an understanding of what's going on
8 around them in the other areas of responsibility.
9 Q: So, that after the morning -- initial
10 morning meeting, people went away and developed plans for
11 their own area and came back and then there was a general
12 meeting?
13 A: Right.
14 Q: And, for example, under
15 Administration:
16 "TRU personnel will be deployed
17 immediately if this goes down to Pinery
18 -- Pinery Provincial Park. This will
19 be discussed."
20 This was -- refers to the fact that the
21 TRU team was going to be housed at Pinery Provincial
22 Park?
23 A: Yes.
24 Q: And then, on the next page:
25 "Two (2) white boards required for ERT

85

1 by Korosec; one (1) for ground at Park
2 and one (1) at Forest Detachment.
3 Logistics requires a duty roster from
4 Korosec. When officers are being
5 brought in, the garage at Forest
6 Detachment will be used as a briefing
7 centre. No one should assume that this
8 incident will occur a certain way.
9 There may be many variables that can
10 change the -- any situation. There is
11 no hurry to contain the Park when and
12 if they Natives take over the Park.
13 All ERT members will be reporting to
14 Forest Detachment in the beginning for
15 a briefing, not the incident site."
16 Now, what's being referred to here with
17 respect to the white boards, for example?
18 A: Oh, it's just white boards so that
19 the ERT people have briefing boards.
20 Q: Okay.
21 A: So, that they can just post
22 information as the Team Leaders see fit.
23 Q: And, the briefing was going to take
24 place in the garage at the Forest Detachment?
25 A: Yes, there was a two (2) car garage

86

1 at the Forest Detachment and that provides sufficient
2 space for the people to assemble and -- and be provided a
3 briefing en masse as one (1) group.
4 Q: And:
5 "There is no hurry to contain the Park
6 when and if the Natives take over the
7 Park."
8 What is that referring to?
9 A: It means that, you know, we're not
10 under any, I hate to use the term sense of urgency, but -
11 - but there is time. There are -- there are -- the
12 people will be deployed, but first of all they'll come to
13 Forest and -- and we'll take our time and do it right.
14 Q: Okay. And, what is the reference to,
15 "not the incident site?"
16 A: Oh, that should be site as in S-I-T-
17 E, not going down to the Park and reporting there --
18 Q: So, they --
19 A: -- report to Forest first, not -- not
20 to the location of the incident.
21 Q: So, the -- when they're called in,
22 they go to Forest, not down to the Park?
23 A: Right.
24 Q: Then, Brad Seltzer had a concern, he
25 wanted a separate room for the negotiators only, a

87

1 separate telephone line for that -- that room; is that
2 correct?
3 A: Yes.
4 Q: And was that set up?
5 A: Yes, it was.
6 Q: "ERT and TRU stand. Inner perimeter
7 requires twenty-four (24) men, two (2)
8 teams. Map will be attached with their
9 location. Uniform and equipment issues
10 will be the grey, tactical issues.
11 Long guns to ERT in the trunk.
12 We are going to be on the outside of
13 the fence because if, for some reasons,
14 we're not trapped inside, John's
15 perception is that the main emergency
16 concern is from the camp.
17 Discussion occurred and it will be
18 discussed further, later. Gate at
19 maintenance yards will be open."
20 And what is that referring to?
21 A: The gate -- the maintenance yard
22 gate? The gate at the maintenance yard?
23 Q: The whole paragraph.
24 A: Oh, okay.
25 Q: Starting at the top

88

1 A: Right. It just refers to the number
2 of personnel that's going to be required, and the
3 uniforms that they will be working in, and the weaponry
4 that they would be expected to carry in their vehicles.
5 And there was some discussion about being
6 on the outside of the fence, and I had some concern about
7 that, and I alluded to that earlier about being
8 positioned on Matheson Drive, which has a fence on either
9 side; so that stimulated some discussion, which was
10 addressed later by the tactical team in their -- in their
11 planning.
12 As far as the gate, that's -- that's --
13 that's speaking about the gate. I mentioned earlier, by
14 the maintenance shack that --
15 Q: Gate number 1.
16 A: Right. It would be open so that we
17 would have access in and out through that vantage point.
18 Q: Now, I'm putting on the screen a
19 number of -- simply examples of uniforms, and this one
20 appears to be a green uniform and --
21 A: Right.
22 Q: -- you've referred to green uniforms
23 being used by both the -- the TRU teams and the ERT
24 teams. Is this the green -- an example of the green
25 uniform you're referring to?

89

1 A: Yes, sir.
2 Q: Then --
3 A: Just for what it's worth, that's just
4 -- that's the green uniform with the standard duty belt
5 of any patrol officer.
6
7 (BRIEF PAUSE)
8
9 Q: And this uniform, which is a little
10 different -- has a different hat. What's -- it appears
11 to be the same as the picture we looked at before which
12 was CU-034, this one's CU-035.
13 What is the difference, other than that
14 hat, between the uniforms?
15 A: There is no difference that I'm aware
16 of.
17 Q: And what is the significance of the
18 hat?
19 A: It's just different applications
20 depending on what the assignment is.
21 Q: And the -- as I understand it, that -
22 - that particular hat on that photograph is an ERT hat,
23 and only ERT members may wear the ERT duty cap, is that
24 correct?
25 A: Oh, yes, that's correct.

90

1 Q: And the last picture is a picture of
2 a grey uniform, and is that the tactical grey uniform
3 that you referred to?
4 A: Correct, and it's the same uniform as
5 the one previous, just different colour.
6 Q: And the hat that's on -- on this
7 model, in this picture, is a hat used -- to be used by
8 the ERT members?
9 A: Yes, sir.
10 Q: And which uniform did the TRU team
11 use during this incident?
12 A: I believe it was the same grey
13 uniform.
14 Q: Okay. As opposed to the green?
15 A: Correct.
16 Q: Perhaps we'll --
17 A: Well, some of those decisions -- not
18 particularly relative to this incident, but a lot of
19 those decisions, as to which colour uniform, depends on
20 the -- the requirement of the moment.
21 If -- if the officers find themselves in a
22 -- an area where they need to be concealed and the rest
23 of the terrain is green, they -- they may find it's
24 necessary to switch into green uniforms, of which they
25 carry in their trucks, so some of it's an on-ground

91

1 decision at the time.
2 Q: And perhaps I could just...
3
4 (BRIEF PAUSE)
5
6 Q: With each of these uniforms, for
7 example, photograph CU-34 there's attached to it a
8 description CH-034. In this case, it says:
9 "Operational uniform with the
10 appropriate insignia in accordance with
11 the Ontario Provincial Police orders
12 may be worn by OPP officers assigned to
13 canine emergency response team,
14 provincial response team and the
15 tactical rescue unit details."
16 Have I read that correctly?
17 A: That's correct, yes.
18 Q: And was that a -- a description of
19 who might wear the uniform back in 1995?
20 A: yes, it is.
21 Q: And attached to the photograph CU-035
22 there's another description:
23 "Operational uniform with the
24 appropriate insignia and in accordance
25 with the Ontario Provincial Police

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1 orders -- Provincial Police orders may
2 be worn by OPP officers again, assigned
3 to canine emergency response team,
4 provincial response team and the
5 tactical rescue unit details, with the
6 exception of only ERT may wear the ERT
7 duty cap."
8 And the ERT duty cap is the blue cap?
9 A: The baseball style, yes.
10 Q: And then CU-038, the grey uniform is
11 described as:
12 "Operational uniform with the
13 appropriate insignia and in accordance
14 with the Ontario Provincial Police
15 orders, may be worn by OPP officers
16 assigned to canine emergency response
17 team, provincial response team and the
18 tactical rescue unit details, with the
19 exception that only ERT may wear the
20 ERT duty cap."
21 A: Correct.
22 Q: And what was the provincial response
23 team, back in 1995, if there was such a --
24 A: There wasn't at that time.
25 Q: Wasn't?

1 operational uniform worn by
2 OPP officers assigned to K9,
3 ERT and TRU details; with the
4 exception that only ERT may
5 wear the ERT duty cap.
6
7 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:
8 Q: And it was the grey uniform that was
9 used during this incident?
10 A: Yes.
11 Q: Then:
12 "Long guns to ERT in the trunk".
13 What's that referring to?
14 A: Oh, just that the ERT members will
15 bring long guns with them, the rifles, and they will be
16 available in the trunks of their vehicles.
17 Q: And what kind of long guns were the
18 ERT members issued with?
19 A: At that time it was mini Rugers.
20 Q: And what is a mini Ruger?
21 A: Mini Rugers are a rifle.
22 Q: Yes?
23 A: And I can't tell you the calibre off
24 the top of my head, but it's a semi-automatic style rifle
25 that has a multiple shot magazine that feeds the -- the

95

1 weapon.
2
3 (BRIEF PAUSE)
4
5 Q: And is it -- it's a long -- is it a -
6 - it's -- when you say "multiple shot" does that mean
7 it's an automatic or a semi --
8 A: No, it's a -- it's a semi-automatic.
9 It's a semi-automatic rifle. I forget exactly off the
10 top of my head the number of shells each magazine will
11 hold, but it's several -- it's at least a dozen.
12
13 (BRIEF PAUSE)
14
15 Q: Now, there's some -- at the bottom of
16 this page, there is some quotes that apparently are from
17 you and others.
18 "John: When we approach the natives to
19 leave, we always stay in their face."
20 And was that something that you said back
21 on September 1st, 1995?
22 A: That would appear so, yes.
23 Q: And the -- at this point in the time,
24 the person taking the notes appears to be attributing
25 quotes to people. And did you instruct her to do that?

96

1 A: No.
2 Q: Did you see these notes after --
3 shortly after they were -- Exhibit 421 was created?
4 A: Yes, I've had them since that time.
5 Q: And were -- are they an accurate
6 representation of what was said by the individuals
7 identified here?
8 A: I believe so.
9 Q: And -- and I take it you are the
10 John?
11 A: Correct.
12 Q: And what did you mean when you used
13 the words:
14 "When we approach the Natives to leave,
15 we always stay in their face."?
16 A: Well what I was talking about there
17 it -- it's kind of the context of this is that should --
18 should we be able to cohabit in the Park when the
19 occupation occurs, that we -- when we approach the
20 occupiers, that we will stay in and amongst them or in
21 your face as opposed to say, there's a camp over by the
22 beach and then our officers are a hundred (100) yards
23 away watching them with binoculars. I want them to be up
24 close and being interacting with them and trying to keep
25 this thing as calm as we could.

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1 Q: And when you say, "interacting with
2 them" what did you -- what do you mean by that?
3 A: Well they would -- they would be in
4 and amongst and talking to them. Just -- just trying to,
5 you know, keep some dialogue going.
6 Q: Okay. And then: "Mark..."
7 -- excuse me, I take it that's Mark
8 Wright?
9 A: Correct.
10 Q: "... the Natives will be using women
11 and children. Sees threat from
12 outsiders trying to get into the Park."
13 And what's that refer to?
14 A: He's just alerting to the fact that
15 in all likelihood women and children will be coming to
16 the Park in the initial stages of the occupation and need
17 to be mindful of that.
18 And that if we're going to have any
19 difficulties, most likelihood it will be as a result of
20 outsiders who are coming in with -- with the occupiers
21 who we had known for some time.
22 Q: Okay.
23 "John: This is the main concern for
24 our perimeter. The whole reason for
25 cordon is to maintain the amount of

98

1 people in the Park."
2 And that's referring to what?
3 A: That again is just trying to where
4 ever -- to the degree possible establish a perimeter and
5 prevent additional people from coming into the Park once
6 the occupation starts.
7 Q: And then:
8 "Stan..."
9 That's Stan Korosec?
10 A: Yes.
11 Q: "...the two (2) accesses to Matheson
12 Drive; can these be blocked off?"
13 A: Correct.
14 Q: And then it has you:
15 "John: OPP will put the concrete
16 barriers in. Probably the same thing
17 should be placed at the beach. We can
18 simply move the MNR concrete barriers.
19 Native will be advised they are not
20 going to be using Matheson Drive in and
21 out."
22 And when you're referring -- what were you
23 referring to there?
24 A: I believe there was -- there was some
25 concrete barriers within the Park. Well, my memory isn't

99

1 100 percent exactly where they were situated, but there
2 was some discussion about putting them down by the beach.
3 I believe what we were trying to do is
4 prevent vehicular traffic from -- back and forth into the
5 Park.
6 Q: From Matheson Drive?
7 A: Yes.
8 Q: And was being discussed at this
9 point, blocking access through the gate at Number 1 and
10 the gate at Number 2 on Exhibit P-422?
11 A: Yes. Now we had some discussion
12 earlier about and I know I had discussion with the
13 Natural Resources about which -- which gates had blocks
14 and from which ones don't, so I'm not 100 percent sure
15 which we were going here at this point because this
16 obviously created some discussion.
17 Q: And the blocks down on the beach
18 would be at the end of Matheson Drive; that's being --
19 A: Right. I think that's -- I that's
20 what we were talking about at this point in time, yes.
21 Q: And the blocks at Matheson Drive
22 would -- at the end on the beach was to do what?
23 A: Prevent vehicular traffic from the
24 Military Base into the Park. I think you'll find some
25 time later we talked about putting blocks in but they

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1 were more so on the other side of the Park by the parking
2 lot.
3 Q: By the sandy -- what we've called the
4 sandy parking lot?
5 A: Correct. So, there's a couple of
6 different spots there. So, it may be a bit confusing.
7 Q: Then there's a reference to:
8 "Crime has to make sure that ident.
9 take pictures of everything, i.e., of
10 the Force Detachment garage so they
11 have a picture history of everything
12 we've done."
13 Is that something that you reported to
14 have said?
15 A: Yes.
16 Q: And then on the last page:
17 "John does not want to be in a verbal
18 barrage when they are sitting in there.
19 You can cohabitate if you want without
20 any major problems; that would be fine.
21 The more in the fact you are, the less
22 risk you are. If the people inside the
23 Park want to leave, that's fine."
24 And, what is -- what were you referring to
25 there, sir?

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1 A: Again, that's trying to, you know,
2 establish some relationship once the occupation starts so
3 that our officers are in and amongst the occupiers. And
4 it was my view that if we were in there and talking with
5 them that there was less risk to the officers than being
6 a target from a distance.
7 Q: And, the -- and then Huntley's
8 concern is to control Matheson Drive.
9 "If we're going to contain it, we have
10 to control Matheson Drive and prevent
11 any people from entering. Cannot sit
12 here and plan for the two (2) levels,
13 we are now planning for both risks."
14 And, what's he referring to, simply
15 stopping traffic on Matheson Drive?
16 A: Yes, it was just a debate on how --
17 how we'd do that with any ability to be effective.
18 Q: And:
19 "We are now planning for both risks."
20 What's that refer to?
21 A: Well, it just suggests that that was
22 just planning for any scenario.
23 Q: So, the more serious scenario as well
24 as cohabitation scenario; is that fair?
25 A: Right.

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1 Q: Then:
2 "John: If you are on Matheson Drive,
3 you are in a tunnel. You have nowhere
4 to go but over the fence."
5 And, that's something you spoke to us
6 earlier?
7 A: Correct. And, that was my
8 concern about them being caught in between the two (2)
9 fence lines and -- and unable to escape if they -- they
10 were confronted or found themself under fire.
11 Q: Okay. Then:
12 "John..."
13 Then, there's a note:
14 "...Discussion with regards to this
15 will be held later."
16 Then:
17 "John: My main concern is the
18 possibility of rescuing injured people
19 out of this area."
20 And, the area that you're referring to
21 there, is that Matheson Drive?
22 A: Yes, between the fence lines on
23 Matheson.
24 Q: "Mark: When people come into the
25 Park we will see them and we'll arrest

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1 them."
2 What does that refer to?
3 A: Well, there was -- there was some
4 discussion about, you know, when people come into the
5 Park. Like, it may be possible depending on the numbers
6 that when people first come into the Park, if the Park is
7 closed and they refuse to leave that they could be
8 arrested right then and there. It was just, again, one
9 (1) of the angles of the discussion that was being put
10 forward.
11 Q: And, I take it that's based on the
12 assumption that the closed -- Park had been closed for
13 the assump -- for the season and that people were warned
14 to leave the Park?
15 A: Right.
16 Q: And then, after having been asked to
17 leave and warned that they were trespassers, they did not
18 leave?
19 A: Right.
20 Q: Then:
21 "Stan..."
22 I take it that's Stan Korosec?
23 A: Yes.
24 Q: "...four (4) at beach, four (4) at
25 main gate, four (4) at maintenance

104

1 building and four (4) at the Matheson
2 curve to the beach and eight (8) at the
3 end of Matheson beach. We can shrink
4 that in if the situation dictates it."
5 And, what is that referring to, please?
6 A: He was just discussing the -- the
7 possibility where he would deploy some of his personnel.
8 Q: And, was that -- once there had -- if
9 there was an occupation?
10 A: Correct.
11 Q: And, as we will see, he had some
12 officers in the Park on September 4th and were they
13 deployed, do you know, in this configuration?
14 A: Well, when -- when the officers were
15 in the Park and they were confronted on the 4th, this --
16 this is technically prior to this kind of a scenario,
17 they -- they were continuing their ongoing patrol of the
18 Park as they had been the whole month of August and up to
19 and including Labour Day, itself.
20 Q: So, that there was one (1) ERT team
21 in there at any given time and that would be fifteen (15)
22 people?
23 A: Right.
24 Q: Then:
25 "John: We may have to get down

105

1 Matheson Drive for any type of
2 extrication."
3 And, I take it that's referring to getting
4 someone who's injured or arrested out of Matheson Drive?
5 A: Particularly from a rescue
6 perspective.
7 Q: "Stan: Checkpoints, road blocks, is
8 four (4) still required?
9 "John: Yes, four (4) is still
10 required."
11 And, that's referring to checkpoints?
12 A: Yeah, I believe he's speaking about
13 checkpoints outside of the Park, itself.
14 Q: Outside the Park?
15 A: Correct.
16 Q: And, you say, Yes, four (4) is still
17 required and those four (4) would be, again, outside the
18 Park?
19 A: Yes.
20 Q: "Stan: Uniform only for roadblocks,
21 Number 2 District will bring the van.
22 Number 1 District will also be brought.
23 The Polaroid camera is the Grand Bend
24 one; probably need one in the St.
25 Thomas van."

106

1 What's that referring to?
2 A: That's referring to prisoner vans and
3 cameras for photographing prisoners.
4 Q: And, "Uniform only for roadblocks:;
5 is that blue shirts or grey shirts?
6 A: I suspect that's blue shirts there
7 that we're speaking of.
8 Q: Okay. And then:
9 "Give a copy to Mark Wright and we will
10 have the master plan typed."
11 And I take it that everyone provided a
12 copy of the plan for their particular group?
13 A: Yes.
14 Q: And a master plan was created that
15 was put into a binder and entitled, Project Maple?
16 A: Yes.
17 Q: And you have with you your binder?
18 A: yes, I do.
19 Q: And that binder was -- did you use
20 red binders when you put this together?
21 A: they were all this colour binder at
22 that time. I controlled the whole -- the file of them.
23 Q: Okay.
24 A: I think I had fifteen (15) of them.
25 Q: You had fifteen (15)?

107

1 A: I believe so.
2 Q: And the copy of the -- Commissioner,
3 the copy of Project Maple that we distributed just for
4 everyone's -- for My Friends benefit, was a copy of
5 Deputy Commissioner Carson's personal copy of Project
6 Maple which was then bound in cerlox binding and had a
7 little fancier tabs put in and your version of Project
8 Maple there, stick on tabs, is that not correct?
9 A: Correct.
10 Q: And perhaps we could mark a copy of
11 Project Maple as the next exhibit.
12 THE REGISTRAR: P-424, your Honour.
13
14 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-424: Project Maple notes,
15 September 1995.
16
17 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:
18 Q: And subject to those qualifications,
19 this is simply a photocopy of Deputy Commissioner
20 Carson's personal copy of Project Maple. And it's been,
21 for want of a better word, gussied-up a bit by the --when
22 they created the tabs, et cetera, it was easier to simply
23 print them as opposed to put plastic tabs on all of the
24 copies we needed for Counsel.
25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you.

108

1
2 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:
3 Q: And after the meeting on September
4 the 1st did you -- what did you do next with respect to
5 Project Maple?
6 On September the 2nd, it says -- there's a
7 note at page 50 of Exhibit 410 which is the hand -- the
8 notes that are in front of you in the -- the book.
9
10 (BRIEF PAUSE)
11
12 A: Just checking where I have that note.
13
14 (BRIEF PAUSE)
15
16 A: Well, the -- the meeting occurred on
17 Friday September the 1st. All of the documents were put
18 together by myself. And I don't have a -- I don't see a
19 -- didn't make a note of it, I guess.
20 However, on the Saturday morning, I went
21 into the district headquarters with one (1) of our
22 administrative staff --
23 Q: That's in London.
24 A: Correct.
25 Q: Yes?

109

1 A: And all the binders were assembled
2 that day -- during the day on Saturday.
3 Q: And the various plans that were used -- created by
4 the various individuals -- various teams, were typed up,
5 ultimately, and then you put them together into the red
6 binders on Saturday morning?
7 A: Correct.
8 Q: And then how -- you say that you
9 created fifteen (15) copies?
10 A: I believe that's the number, yes.
11 Q: And I note in Project Maple that on
12 the page 1 you've got:
13 "Objective: To contain and negotiate a
14 peaceful solution."
15 And that was in each of the copies of
16 Project Maple?
17 A: Yes, and not to be nit-picky, but
18 it's a peaceful resolution.
19 Q: Oh, okay. A peaceful resolution.
20 And there's a number fifteen (15) on the upper right hand
21 corner of exhibit P-424. I take it that's -- number
22 fifteen (15) was on your personal copy?
23 A: Yeah, each -- I numbered -- I
24 numbered that page on each binder as I handed them out.
25 Actually, in the initial stages, I had a control sheet of

110

1 who I issued which number to.
2 Q: And is that control sheet still with
3 us.
4 A: I have no idea where it ended up.
5 Q: Okay.
6 A: It was in the trunk of my car for a
7 long time in a banker's box and it has since...
8 Q: And did you discuss the objective
9 with the Chief Superintendent Coles when you spoke to him
10 on September 3rd?
11 I think you'll see your notes are --
12 there's a note, page 51, Sunday, September 3, 20:30?
13 A: Yes, I called him on Sunday evening,
14 about 8:30. Updated him about the plan and a meeting
15 with the Ministry of Natural Resources. Discussed having
16 the buildings at the Park videotaped regarding
17 evidentiary requirements.
18 And then I was going to assign an ident.
19 person in the morning to do that.
20 Q: And did you discuss this objective
21 with him, that's set out on page 1 of Project Maple?
22 A: I couldn't -- I couldn't tell you
23 whether I did or whether I didn't, but what I did for
24 sure, I mean I don't think there's any doubt in anybody's
25 mind at that planning meeting what the objective was, and

111

1 I had our identification people take that objective, and
2 blow it up onto approximately a two (2) foot by four (4)
3 foot hard surface that was in fact attached to the wall
4 in the garage, or a briefing room, at the Forest
5 Detachment once the Project was underway.
6 Q: And I think we have a photograph of
7 that and we'll come back to that this afternoon. The
8 final copy of Project Maple as we indicated earlier had
9 the box on the left hand side drawn in, page 2
10 "Intelligence Detective Sergeant Don Bell" and you told
11 us earlier you drew that in on the morning of September
12 2nd?
13 A: I believe so, yes.
14 Q: And then as we simply flip through
15 the third page is Community Liaison?
16 A: Correct.
17 Q: And it says:
18 "The communication exchange with the
19 effective community is considered a
20 vital component to the excess of the
21 operational plan."
22 And what's that refer to, sir?
23 A: Well it's just the simple fact that
24 communication is very important to ensure that
25 everybody's up to speed on what's going on, so there's an

112

1 understanding of what the police are doing, and that we
2 recognize that as a -- an important function.
3 Q: And then:
4 "Consultation with the area
5 stakeholders will be maintained
6 throughout the operation of the plan.
7 Local municipal officials will be
8 updated and consulted on issues of
9 community concern. The Chief of Kettle
10 and Stoney Point will be consulted
11 regarding the impact and concerns of
12 the First Nations territory. Personnel
13 assigned to liaison duties of a sound
14 understanding of the local historical
15 issues."
16 And that's referring to I take it, the
17 Mayor of Bosanquet Township and Chief Tom Bressette of
18 Kettle and Stoney Point?
19 A: Well that -- them in particular, but
20 also the Mayor of Forest, and any other -- the Mayor of
21 Grand Bend at that time, anyone else depending on the
22 events that were to take place.
23 But certainly, in particular, Bosanquet
24 Township, and the Chief and Council of Kettle Point
25 specifically.

113

1 Q: And were there individuals assigned
2 to liaison with Chief Bressette and with the local
3 mayors?
4 A: A number of people would have carried
5 out those duties; like it wasn't one person only.
6 Q: Then the next page in Operation
7 Maple; it's "Emergency Response Team's operation plan".
8 And under deployment:
9 "To contain the Provincial Park and
10 prevent persons from entering the
11 Park."
12 Although its blacked out on the ones that
13 we've provided and it's been marked it says:
14 "A total of twenty-four (24) ERT
15 members will set up an inner perimeter.
16 See attached map for positions inside
17 the Park fence."
18 And I know there -- there are a number of
19 maps inside, but the positions, I take it, were the
20 positions that Stand Korosec referred to on September
21 1st?
22 A: Correct.
23 Q: Then there's a reference to the
24 weapons and the uniforms being the grey tactical
25 uniforms. Then it says:

114

1 "ERT communication talk will be located
2 at the MNR lot on East Parkway Drive,
3 the Number 1 District ERT Victrix
4 Aerial and Vehicle Substitution will be
5 activated -- vehicle substitution unit
6 will be activated."
7 And, was that done?
8 A: Yes, that was their -- their means of
9 communication for the supervisor.
10 Q: Okay. And --
11 A: Would -- would you like me to explain
12 what that is?
13 Q: Yes, please.
14 A: A vehicle substitution unit is
15 essentially a radio that would be normally found in the
16 trunk of a police car for normal radio transmissions. It
17 is converted into a stationary box with a -- a portable
18 generator to produce electricity, so that it can actually
19 be plugged in and operated in a stationary mode.
20 So, basically it takes the cruiser radio,
21 it's in a box, carry it out and put it in a position, and
22 now they have a -- a portable radio system. And the
23 Vixtrics area is simply -- Vixtrics aerial is simply a
24 small antenna that they're able to hoist up to allow them
25 to complete the transmissions.

115

1 Q: And, that was set up in the MNR
2 parking lot?
3 A: Yes.
4 Q: And, at the -- at this point in time,
5 the -- had the decision been made on September
6 1st/September 2nd to use the St. John's Ambulance Trailer
7 as the -- the command post for the MNR parking lot?
8 A: No, at that point in time we were
9 going to have to do it, basically, out of the front seat
10 of a car, for lack of a better term, and that connection
11 with the St. John Ambulance actually occurs later on
12 Sunday afternoon.
13 Q: Okay, we'll come to that, but at his
14 point in time the -- the ERT TOC -- and that's -- TOC
15 means Tactical Operations Centre --
16 A: Right.
17 Q: -- was going to be in the MNR parking
18 lot on East Parkway Drive?
19 A: That's right.
20 Q: And, the TOC was there, and the
21 mobile command unit was going to be in Forest, and it was
22 referred to as the Command Post?
23 A: Correct.
24 Q: Then, I note on the next page:
25 "Administration and support. TRU to be

116

1 supported during occurrence by ERT and
2 canine."
3 A: I'm sorry, which note are you...
4 Q: The next -- the next page in Project
5 Maple at the very top.
6 A: I'm...
7 Q: Perhaps the page got...
8 A: The top of page 2?
9 Q: Page 3, under the...
10
11 (BRIEF PAUSE)
12
13 Q: For the benefit of My Friends,
14 somehow the gremlins have got into this.
15 "Administration and Support. TRU to be
16 supported during occurrence by ERT.
17 Should follow TRU operational plan."
18 Which is the last page in that tab. It
19 starts, "TRU Operational Plan Ipperwash" and the page
20 "Administration and Support" should follow that page, I
21 apologize.
22 So that on yours, the next page is simply
23 -- talks about Channel Tactical, what's that refer to?
24 A: That's the total access channel.
25 Q: Yes.

117

1 A: That's -- that's setting up what the
2 Communications personnel would call a tact. channel, and
3 actually, tactical is -- is actually not the right term,
4 it should be just TAC technically.
5 Q: So, it's a total access channel?
6 A: Right. It's not a tactical channel,
7 it's a tact. channel, so...
8 Q: And then:
9 "ERT units on the perimeter will be
10 referred to "Oscar" positions. See
11 attached map. TOC will be manned by an
12 ERT leader and referred to as 'Lima 2'
13 and responsible for all units on the
14 ground. The team leader will also be
15 stationed at the command post and will
16 be referred to as 'Lima 1'"
17 So that Lima 1 was an ERT individual in
18 the command post?
19 A: Correct.
20 Q: And Lima 2 was an ERT communications
21 person stationed -- the plan was to be stationed at the
22 MNR parking lot?
23 A: That would be one of the supervise --
24 one of the sergeants.
25 Q: Yes. And then the positions of these

118

1 individuals were set out. There's a number of maps just
2 in front of the tab, Investigation, Deputy Carson.
3
4 (BRIEF PAUSE)
5
6 A: Yes.
7 Q: And if I could take...
8
9 (BRIEF PAUSE)
10
11 Q: No. Perhaps we could just look at
12 some of these maps. The first map has a heading "BSU and
13 Talk 6722 East Parkway, Area 1 parking."
14 That's the MNR parking lot?
15 A: That's right.
16 Q: And it's crossed hatched, then
17 there's a note, "re -- re: repeater -- repeater
18 restriction zone."
19 And this has something to do with
20 communications?
21 At the bottom of that doc -- page it says,
22 "repeater restriction zone"?
23 A: Oh, correct -- correct, I'm sorry.
24 Q: And it's outlined in black and cross
25 hatched?

119

1 A: Yes.
2 Q: And that simply refers to what?
3 A: Well that's a technical challenge in
4 communications. What happens is, as I explained the
5 other day, each cruiser has a repeater radio in the trunk
6 of it that's part of the mobile unit.
7 But when you are doing an operation where
8 there are multiple vehicles there, it's important that
9 only one (1) repeater is used on the site.
10 There's what they -- there's some
11 technical challenges because of frequency issues that if
12 all the cars have their repeaters activated, that the
13 portables are trying to talk to all the cars at the same
14 time.
15 So, it's important that there is control
16 around the technology that's there, and so what the
17 supervisor is referring to in this, is that this is a
18 repeater restriction area where the communications
19 supervisor will control which vehicle, in fact, will have
20 repeaters activated.
21 Q: Okay. And then the next map, which
22 has a number on it, Map 4, Kettle Point and Ipperwash.
23 A: Yes.
24 Q: It's a different one that -- in our
25 copy that we've got here, it's...

120

1
2 (BRIEF PAUSE)
3
4 Q: Now...
5
6 (BRIEF PAUSE)
7
8 Q: The -- on the screen is the map
9 that's in...
10
11 (BRIEF PAUSE)
12
13 Q: Not quite the same.
14
15 (BRIEF PAUSE)
16
17 Q: And the map that's up on the -- the
18 screen which is a map, there's written on it an "A" --
19 you'll see "A" on East Parkway Drive".
20 A: Correct.
21 Q: And then there's a "B", it should be
22 -- on this one there isn't, but on yours there's a "B"
23 near the intersection of Ipperwash Road and West -- East
24 Parkway Drive. Do you see that?
25 A: Yes. The "B" is right where -- you

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1 are right here.
2 Q: Yes, and then --
3 A: So it's at that intersection right
4 there.
5 Q: And then a 'C' is at -- on your map
6 is at Gratton Drive?
7 A: Correct. Right where you are right
8 now.
9 Q: And 'D' is down by -- just on the
10 west side of the intersection of Lake Charvauge
11 (phonetic) which is really Highway 21 and Army Camp Road?
12 A: Correct.
13 Q: And were those: A, B, C and D, the
14 initial checkpoints to be established if Project Maple
15 went into -- went into -- was -- was invoked?
16 A: Correct. Generally speaking, the
17 only maybe slightly -- is the location of 'A' is probably
18 closer to the Army Camp Road than -- than this map would
19 depict.
20 Q: So that --
21 A: In the initial stages.
22 Q: In the initial stages 'A' was closer
23 to Army Camp Road than where it is -- it appears right --
24 on this map to be close to where the MNR parking lot is.
25 A: Correct. Initially it was -- it was

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1 much closer towards the first cottage, or right near the
2 first cottage, on Parkway at the -- at the beginning.
3 Q: And is it fair to say when it was
4 close to the first cottage, it was close to the
5 intersection of East Parkway Drive and Army Camp Road?
6 A: Within sight, yes.
7 Q: Within sight?
8 A: Hmm hmm.
9 Q: And so that anyone in the Sandy
10 Parking Lot could see the cruisers?
11 A: Yes.
12 Q: And under the plan, when the plan was
13 established, what was the purpose of the checkpoints --
14 the initial purpose of the checkpoint?
15 A: Well the purpose was to check traffic
16 coming into the area to ensure that the people going
17 through "A" were -- had business to conduct in there, and
18 had a right to be there, and to avoid them stumbling and
19 attempting to get into the Park.
20 Q: And the -- actually the roadblock --
21 go to -- if you go to the page that has the channels at
22 the bottom, it says Checkpoint 'A' East Parkway at MNR
23 parking lot, talk location, but in fact it was moved
24 farther east towards the intersection?
25 A: That's my understanding, yes.

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1 Q: And then 'C' was to be at the Army --
2 on Army Camp Road north of the trailer park, and that's
3 the first trailer park; there's -- there's two (2)
4 trailer parks along Army Camp Road, the one that's on the
5 north end, is that your understanding?
6 A: I believe it would -- where we showed
7 -- it would be the -- the point where the last -- the
8 last residence is on that road if you were travelling
9 towards the Park.
10 Q: Towards the Park?
11 A: Right.
12 Q: And I -- I think that is the --
13 there's a -- there's a park -- there's a mobile trailer
14 park right there.
15 A: I think's it Silver Birch.
16 Q: Silver Birch. Then at the top of the
17 next page there is planning for a prisoner van?
18 A: Correct.
19 Q: And the total number of ERT members
20 available, at least on September 1st, was -- it's blacked
21 out on this one, but in fact there was fifty-eight (58)
22 people?
23 A: That's correct.
24 Q: So that it wasn't a full compliment
25 for each of the fifteen (15) person units?

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1 A: Well, there may have been for a
2 variety of reasons; people not available, vacation, and
3 other assignments that the odd one may not have been able
4 to attend.
5 Q: And then the next page is the
6 intelligent function which we've briefly talked about
7 before. But it was basically to:
8 "Identify people, as many people as
9 possible who are occupying the base.
10 Develop biographical profiles on those
11 identified. Attempt to identify
12 visitors attending the base, and four
13 (4), collect analyse and disseminate
14 all pertinent [something] one
15 intelligence relating to this
16 operation."
17 A: Correct.
18 Q: And we've talked about this before,
19 that really this meant identifying people who were there,
20 and then once the occupation took place, identifying the
21 people who went into the army camp?
22 A: Correct.
23 Q: I mean into the Provincial Park?
24 A: Park, I'm sorry, yes.
25 Q: Then the next item was the TRU

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1 operational plan, and the second page of which is after
2 the first tab, ERT TRU. And they're -- did the TRU team
3 create this operational plan themselves, is that how this
4 worked?
5 A: Correct.
6 Q: And, the -- "so that the situation,
7 bullet, to resolve through negotiation, a peaceful
8 solution" was something that they put in their plan?
9 A: Yes, but every TRU team plan, or
10 incident where the TRU team are involved, they develop --
11 and you'll see this is subtitled, "Situation Mission
12 Execution Administration and Command and Control."
13 That's -- that is a standard -- what they call SMEACC
14 process, that they -- that they use.
15 Q: It's a standard process, they just
16 fill it in as they...
17 A: Right. So, any -- any assignment
18 they get, they would -- they would -- these are the steps
19 that they would follow.
20 Q: Okay. And then, the command control
21 and communications with respect to TRU were identified on
22 the next page, which is the page that's out of place in
23 My Friends' -- but they were going to have four (4)
24 vehicles, the TRU team?
25 A: Yes. We were just identifying the

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1 equipments available to them.
2 Q: And then, the Incident Commander was
3 identified as yourself; the TRU Commander was Acting
4 Staff Sergeant Skinner?
5 A: Correct.
6 Q: And, TRU second in command was Acting
7 Sergeant Deane?
8 A: Right.
9 Q: And, TRU to operate on TRU channel 1,
10 TOC vehicle to have TRU and TAC channel, and can you tell
11 us what that refers to? Did the TRU team have its own
12 radio system?
13 A: Yes, beyond the discussion we had the
14 other day in regards to communications, the TRU team
15 operate on an independent radio network. So, none of the
16 communications from TRU would be heard by ERT personnel
17 in -- in any call that we do.
18 What happens is, the TRU communications,
19 they have their TOC vehicle, which is a cube van, and it
20 has a telescopic antenna that is put up when they arrive,
21 and which is important in regards to where that vehicle
22 is located and -- and within a kilometre is ideal, so
23 that they have good communications with their people on
24 the ground.
25 So, the radio for the TRU operates out of

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1 their TOC van and they can transmit to the TRU officers
2 who are carrying portable radios in their kit.
3 Q: So that -- just so that we
4 understand, we have a -- the TOC that's being referred to
5 on this page is a Tactical Operations Centre for the TRU
6 team?
7 A: Right. It's the TRU van with that
8 radio equipment on board.
9 Q: And, that TOC vehicle, we will
10 ultimately hear, was at the MNR parking lot?
11 A: Yes.
12 Q: And, at the same time, there was a
13 TOC or Tactical Operations Centre for the ERT team?
14 A: Correct. Now, what this also refers
15 to is that the TRU team vehicle, that's referred to as
16 the TOC vehicle, will also have the TAC channel, that's
17 the channel that ERT is operating on.
18 So, the TRU team truck has two (2) radio
19 systems in it, one that the normal uniformed people are
20 operating on, on a TAC channel, plus the TRU team
21 network; so that in fact, that truck is carrying two (2)
22 systems on board.
23 Q: And, do I read this correctly:
24 "TOC vehicles communicate with Command
25 Post via cellular; the TAC [which you

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1 just spoke about] and land line". Was
2 there a land line put for that vehicle?
3 A: There was no land line available in
4 the truck.
5 Q: Okay. And, if we could -- on this
6 copy of Exhibit 2004328, there's a note:
7 "Approved by..."
8 A: That's Superintendent Lyons.
9 Q: And, that's not on your copy --
10 A: No.
11 Q: -- but what's that refer to?
12 A: I think when that document was turned
13 over to your people --
14 Q: Oh, I see.
15 A: -- that Superintendent Lyons --
16 Q: Okay.
17 A: -- authorized the release.
18 Q: Yes, yes. Then, if we could go to
19 the tab, Negotiations?
20 A: Correct.
21 Q: And, this was a plan created by
22 Sergeant Seltzer?
23 A: Yeah.
24 Q: And it provided for a number of
25 negotiating teams?

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1 A: Yes, sir.
2 Q: And Sergeant Seltzer identified
3 Lawrence Smith as an advisor. I understand, at this
4 point, Lawrence Smith was no longer an active member of
5 the OPP?
6 A: He was a retired member at that time.
7 Q: Yes. And he had dealt -- I think you
8 told us earlier, for many years -- lived in the area, and
9 was active with the OPP, and -- as liaison with Kettle
10 and Stony Point?
11 A: For many years, yes.
12 Q: And this simply identifies the people
13 who are going to be part of the negotiating teams?
14 A: Correct. This -- this is the
15 structure we use in any crisis negotiation type scenario.
16 We usually have a team leader plus two (2)
17 negotiators. The way it normally works in a -- a -- any
18 major incident is that one (1) negotiator is identified
19 as the primary negotiator, and that person speaks
20 directly to the target.
21 Secondary negotiator operates on a -- a
22 second hand set, listening to the conversation and
23 coaching the primary negotiator, and the team leader
24 monitors the negotiating activity, and reports to the
25 Incident Commander, the strategy, or psychology, that is

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1 developing as -- as he understands it -- or she
2 understands it.
3 Q: So that with respect to this
4 particular chart, Sergeant Seltzer was in charge. Moffat
5 -- and then there's a line, "Moffat (TSB Fuller)".
6 I take -- I take it Fuller was the person
7 from Technical Services who would make sure that they had
8 the line -- the telephone lines they needed?
9 A: Correct. What happens there -- if --
10 if there's a need for crisis negotiators and there's a
11 target telephone, the technical support personnel will
12 lock out the telephone so that the target phone can only
13 ring into the negotiator's phone.
14 Q: Okay. And then three (3) teams were
15 identified, one (1) with Sergeant Eves so that in this
16 scenario, the team 1, Mr. Mark -- Constable Martin would
17 be the primary negotiator with Constable Warole, W-A-R-O-
18 L-E, the -- the backup.
19 A: Actually, it's Wardle, it should have
20 been a "D" as opposed to an "O".
21 Q: Wardle, okay. And a note on the next
22 page that there were to be two (2) negotiating teams on a
23 twelve (12) hour rotation, with the third team help up --
24 held in reserve?
25 A: Correct.

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1 (BRIEF PAUSE)
2
3 Q: Then the next part of the plan is
4 communications, and that simply identifies different
5 people who are going to be involved in the
6 communications, some of who were involved --
7 A: In my copy, sir, there's a media
8 relations plan, the last page of the Tab prior.
9
10 (BRIEF PAUSE)
11
12 Q: Oh, I've skipped a page.
13 A: Okay.
14 Q: Sorry.
15 A: It follows the negotiators --
16 Q: Yeah. It's part of the -- it says
17 "Media relations operational plan -- "
18 A: Right.
19 Q: "-- Ipperwash Provincial Park", and
20 identifies the individuals who are going to be --
21 participated with Sergeant Doug Babbitt?
22 A: Correct.
23 Q: And I note at the bottom that within
24 the first ten (10) hours of the military helicopter being
25 shot at, eighty-six (86) media inquiries were dealt with

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1 in relation to the incident?
2 A: Correct.
3 Q: And if something happened here, you
4 expected a number of media calls?
5 A: He was just identifying the magnitude
6 of the challenge they would face.
7 Q: And then on the next pages we've
8 simply identified the individuals involved?
9 A: Yes, that's the -- the
10 telecommunications personnel who provide support to the
11 radio system.
12 Q: And then the third page of this plan
13 happens to be typed up. It simply talks about the
14 different -- the contingency plan, command post radio,
15 mobile command post, et cetera?
16 A: Correct.
17 Q: And on page 4, you identify security
18 risk factor; what's that refer to, sir?
19 A: Well, that's a risk factor in
20 relation to the equipment.
21 Q: And what's that mean?
22
23 (BRIEF PAUSE)
24
25 Q: Perhaps it would help if you go to

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1 page 5, "security risk factor is high" under "inner
2 perimeter"?
3 A: Yes. What they're talking about here
4 is the security factor at Forest Detachment. Then, the
5 second one is the security risk factor at the inner
6 perimeter.
7 Q: Yes?
8 A: So, it's just that there's different
9 security issues depending on how and where equipment is
10 deployed.
11 Q: Okay. Then, at page 7?
12 A: Yeah, what you have there is just --
13 these are basically call signs of various units, so it's
14 just a -- an order, I guess, of who gets assigned what
15 call signs so people know who's --
16 Q: Calling?
17 A: -- who's being identified when
18 they're being referred to on the radio system.
19 Q: All right. And then, at the bottom
20 of that page there are a number of cars identified, I
21 take it; 2410 to 2419 refers to vehicles?
22 A: Yes, there is the expectation that a
23 number of vehicles will be arriving from various areas
24 and so what they are doing with that is simply
25 identifying the -- the series of call numbers that will

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1 be assigned to each particular group. So again, it's so
2 the communications staff know that when somebody calls in
3 with a particular number that they know what area they're
4 from.
5 Q: And, do you recall -- I know it's a
6 long time ago -- how many cars -- marked police cars
7 responded on -- when the plan got up and running? How
8 many marked police cars did you have? This would add up
9 to about fifty (50) without the --
10 A: No, this is a range of numbers that
11 are available, it doesn't mean that every one will be
12 utilized. As an example, 2410 to 2419 is for Number 1
13 District ERT; that doesn't mean they arrive with ten (10)
14 cars, they may arrive with five (5) cars, but their cars
15 will be assigned out of that series --
16 Q: twenty-four (24)--
17 A: -- of numbers.
18 Q: And, it happens with respect to all
19 of the others?
20 A: Exactly. And, as far as the number
21 of cars, like in most cases, like, we have fifteen (15)
22 officers arrive, you normally would have two (2) to a
23 car, in most cases. Sometimes that's not feasible
24 depending on the location they're at, but generally
25 speaking, if fifteen (15) arrive, you're going to see,

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1 you know, probably eight (8) patrol cars.
2 Q: Then, at the next page, page 8:
3 "Outer perimeter security risk factor
4 high."
5 And, that refers to what?
6 A: I'm not sure why that got a high risk
7 factor. That had something the telecom people assigned
8 to it, I -- you know, I didn't directly have any
9 involvement in that discussion.
10 Q: Then, there are a number of maps that
11 we've -- some of which we've looked at -- including the -
12 - Welcome to Ipperwash, Kettle and Stony Point, then
13 various maps of the area, is that correct?
14 A: Yes. These would be the -- the types
15 of maps that would be provided to the members on their
16 arrival to help brief them on the geography.
17 Q: Oh, perhaps it would be a good time
18 to stop for lunch?
19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: At some time
20 we have to stop for lunch, Mr. Millar. This is as good a
21 time as any, it's 1:30. Are you okay?
22 THE WITNESS: That would be good.
23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll stop
24 for lunch now.
25 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands

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1 adjourned until 2:45.
2
3 --- Upon recessing at 1:28 p.m.
4 --- Upon resuming at 2:46 p.m.
5
6 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now
7 resumed. Please be seated.
8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Then -- good
9 afternoon, Commissioner.
10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good
11 afternoon.
12
13 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:
14 Q: We were -- Deputy Carson, we were
15 talking about the Project Maple, Exhibit 424 before the
16 lunch break and we were down the operational plan under
17 Primary Investigator.
18 It provided for a number of different
19 issues. The technical identification unit, arrest teams,
20 transportation, detention and release centre; and that
21 was going to be located in the town of Forest?
22 A: Correct.
23 Q: And that plan was prepared by
24 Detective Sergeant Richardson and Detective Sergeant
25 Parent?

137

1 A: Correct.
2 Q: And as part of that where is -- a
3 arrest report and a number -- on the third page -- on
4 page 5 of the fax there's a number of different scenarios
5 with possible charges?
6 A: That's correct.
7 Q: And the -- they're all based on
8 either a direction to leave under the Trespass to
9 Property Act, the Court injunction or the Court
10 injunction; is that correct, with respect to leaving the
11 property?
12 A: Yes, that's correct.
13 Q: And then someone has, I take it,
14 Detective Sergeant Richardson and Sergeant Parent pulled
15 out the various charges and put them in the book?
16 A: Right, just provided for convenience
17 the wordings of the various charges?
18 Q: All right. And then the last section
19 is logistics, dealing with -- all the administrative
20 items, meals, accommodations et cetera?
21 A: That's right.
22 Q: And then there's a note on page 3 of
23 that section, the buildings available were the arena and
24 Kimble Hall as an arrest centre, and Forest legion as the
25 media.

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1 Was Kimble hall and the arena to be the
2 arrest centre?
3 A: Yes, that was -- it was available for
4 use at that point.
5 Q: And then there's a chart of the
6 Forest Detachment and the different rooms in the Forest
7 Detachment that were to be used by different individuals.
8 The garage was to be used as the briefing
9 area; it's listed on here as the mustering area.
10 A: Correct.
11 Q: And then there's an office shown for
12 incident commander, did you use that office or did you
13 use the mobile command unit?
14 A: We used the mobile command trailer.
15 Q: And then there's an office for the
16 negotiators; that was for Brad Seltzer and his group?
17 A: That's correct.
18 Q: And was that used as set out in the
19 plan?
20 A: It was set up, yes.
21 Q: And -- it was set up, excuse me. And
22 administration was for Staff Sergeant Dennis?
23 A: Yes, his team, yes.
24 Q: And then records control, was that
25 Richardson's team, the people that worked with him?

139

1 A: Correct.
2 Q: And crime would also be Sergeant --
3 Staff Sergeant Mark Wright and Richardson?
4 A: Yeah, it would be his group of
5 people. There would be -- there would be a number of
6 people involved there.
7 Q: Then you provided for -- on Appendix
8 A, you wanted two (2) officers per mobile unit, no
9 exceptions.
10 Is that -- was that the standard?
11 A: Yes.
12 Q: And was the standard that was used
13 during the course of the incident?
14 A: Yes, well that was how the
15 assignments would be. It would be -- it would be
16 assigned two (2) people per unit.
17 Q: Per unit. And then the plan at the -
18 - initially was that members should plan to stay for at
19 least one (1) week?
20 A: Correct.
21
22 (BRIEF PAUSE)
23
24 Q: Now, the -- you've indicated that on
25 Saturday, September the 2nd that you put together the

140

1 plan, physically put it together with one (1) -- an
2 administrator in the London district headquarters?
3 A: Yes, I did.
4 Q: And so you took the material that was
5 faxed, some of these were faxed to you that morning by
6 the different teams and you put them together in that one
7 (1) book?
8 A: Right.
9 Q: And now I've put in front of you a
10 copy of Inquiry Document 1004483 which has identified on
11 the front page:
12 "Register containing names of persons
13 who received copies of Project Maple
14 operational plan."
15 And there are a number of different names
16 listed. There's a typewritten version that's page 2 and
17 then a handwritten completely illegible version that's
18 page 3. And back in 1995, September of 1995, were you
19 using the handwritten version which then someone
20 subsequently had typed up?
21 A: Yes. I'm not sure who typed it up, I
22 certainly had control of the original handwritten sheet.
23 I had all the project plans in a banker's box in the
24 trunk of my police vehicle. And someone has -- I'm not
25 sure when -- has since copied it over into typewritten

1 A: Quit frankly, I have no idea.
2 Q: And, Sergeant -- who was Staff
3 Sergeant Blandon (sic)?
4 A: Bladon; he's a -- at that time he was
5 in Mt. Forest as the Unit Commander, I believe of the
6 Identification Unit, if my memory is correct.
7 Q: And, did he come in after the
8 incident on September 6th?
9 A: Yes, he assisted after the fact.
10 Q: And, I take it, although they don't
11 appear on the typewritten list, that Sergeant Korosec
12 would have received a copy of the plan?
13 A: I would have thought so.
14 Q: And, who else would have received a
15 copy of the plan?
16 A: That's probably about it for -- that
17 I can think of at the moment.
18 Q: Okay. And it shows -- it indicates
19 that your was returned on September 10th. I take it
20 that's an error because you still have yours?
21 A: Yeah, that's inaccurate. I've
22 controlled that copy since -- since I took control of it
23 in September of '95. I've always kept -- kept that copy.
24 Q: Perhaps we could mark this list as
25 the next exhibit, it would be 425.

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1 THE REGISTRAR: P-425, Your Honour.
2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-425.
3
4 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-425: Document Number 1004483.
5 Register containing names of
6 persons receiving copies of
7 Project Maple operational
8 plan Sept 04/95 to Sept
9 10/95.
10
11 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:
12 Q: Then, if I could take you to your
13 notes on September 2nd, Exhibit 410.
14 A: Yes?
15 Q: Now, can you read what it says in the
16 upper left-hand corner, September 2nd?
17 A: Are you referring to page 50 in the--
18 Q: Page 50, yes.
19 A: Just, "Monday, September the 2nd,
20 08:30".
21 Q: And, the Monday is an error, I take
22 it?
23 A: Yes, it is.
24 Q: And, was -- or was the September 2nd
25 an error? When do you think you called Wade Lacroix, was

144

1 it on the -- September the 4th or September the 2nd?
2 A: I don't think that page belongs
3 there, quite frankly.
4 Q: Okay.
5 MR. MARK SANDLER: Mr. Derry, you'll see
6 that October the 2nd was a Monday, so maybe there's an
7 error and not in rotation
8
9 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:
10 Q: Oh, could you check that? It,
11 perhaps, was put in...
12
13
14 (BRIEF PAUSE)
15
16 Q: I think that I was advised by that
17 and I've overlooked that, that should be Monday, October
18 the 2nd.
19 A: I think that's correct.
20 Q: So, page 50, even though it's dated
21 September the 2nd, should be Monday, October the 2nd?
22 A: I believe so.
23 Q: Then, the next page, page 51 on
24 Sunday, September the 3rd, 1995, you spoke to Chief Coles
25 at 8:30?

145

1 A: Yes, sir.
2 Q: In the evening?
3 A: In the evening right.
4 Q: And, what meeting with the MNR is
5 referred to in this telephone call?
6 A: I believe that -- there was -- I had
7 a meeting -- over that weekend I had some discussion with
8 the Ministry of Natural Resources and it seems to me that
9 I did have some discussion with them I believe on Friday
10 afternoon, although I don't see any note to that affect.
11 Q: And what do you recall of the
12 conversation with them on Friday afternoon?
13 A: Again, this is from, certainly from
14 memory not from notes. But it seems to me that I had
15 some discussion with Les Kobayashi and I'm not sure if it
16 was Ron Baldwin or Peter Sturdy. But, again it was in
17 regards to the Provincial Park.
18 Q: Yes.
19 A: And particularly to the planning
20 process we were going through and -- and the MNR's role
21 as far as what they would do in regards to the injunction
22 et cetera.
23 Q: And was there a discussion with them
24 about videos and buildings?
25 A: Yes. One (1) -- one (1) of the

146

1 things that we needed done as a result of some of this
2 was that we wanted to video tape the -- the buildings,
3 particularly, inside and out, in the event that we did
4 have an occupation and in the event that we had to access
5 those buildings, that we would have the lay of the
6 buildings and the condition of the buildings in advance.
7 Q: And in fact a video of the buildings
8 was done on September the 4th?
9 A: Yes. I assigned one of our
10 identification personnel to do that.
11 Q: And among the buildings videoed was
12 the
13 -- the Park store?
14 A: Yes.
15 Q: And do you recall what other
16 buildings you wanted videoed?
17 A: It should have been all the -- if I
18 remember correctly, all the physical structures.
19 Q: Okay. Then at the -- and a video was
20 then later taken in, I think it, December of '95, did you
21 participate in making arrangements for that?
22 A: No, sir.
23 Q: Okay. And we've seen that there were
24 video cameras placed in at least two (2) buildings. The
25 main entrance at the gatehouse or the kiosk at the main

147

1 entrance to the Park and in the maintenance building.
2 A: Right.
3 Q: And when were those video cameras put
4 into those buildings?
5 A: I believe it was over the same
6 weekend.
7 Q: And why were they put into those
8 buildings?
9 A: In the event of an occupation, we
10 wanted to have the ability to monitor activities in those
11 -- in those buildings.
12 Q: And were there video cameras put in
13 any other buildings?
14 A: I think the only two (2) that they
15 were able to do it was those two (2) buildings. Clearly
16 the preference would have been to have them active in all
17 buildings but I -- there was, I believe, some technical
18 challenges that prevented that from being possible.
19 Q: So -- but, there were video cameras
20 in as we know, in the gatehouse and in the maintenance
21 building?
22 A: Right.
23 Q: And were there any video cameras
24 outside within the Park?
25 A: Not that I'm aware of.

148

1 Q: Okay. Did you give any instructions
2 as part of Project Maple to install any video cameras
3 within the Park outside these two (2) buildings?
4 A: The desire was to have as many videos
5 as possible. But the technology precluded us from having
6 that kind of capability. If it could have done, I would
7 have ordered it. But it wasn't available to me.
8 Q: And then at 20:45 on September the
9 3rd, you had a telephone discussion with Detective
10 Sergeant Mark Wright and you discussed the ident. re.
11 video and then there's something I can't make --
12 A: "Mark Wright will assign."
13 Q: Okay. And that was video taping the
14 buildings?
15 A: Yes.
16 Q: For a record?
17 A: Yes.
18 Q: And at 21:00 hours on September 3rd
19 you had a telephone discussion with Detective Inspector
20 Hutchinson?
21 A: Yes. He called me from 100 Mile
22 House in British Columbia.
23 Q: Yes. What was that conversation
24 about?
25 A: Well, that was about the -- the

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1 occupation that was occurring in British Columbia at that
2 point in time.
3 Q: At Gustafson Lake?
4 A: Correct.
5 Q: Yes...?
6 A: And he indicated the RCMP had
7 recovered a Suburban today, I believe that was one of
8 their vehicles they had to abandon, but they were able to
9 extricate it later.
10 I got the comment here:
11 "The progress was slow. The Supreme
12 Court decision coming on September the
13 12th, reference land claim issue.
14 Maybe a demonstration in Ottawa
15 occurring at that time."
16 Q: And that was in a -- do you know
17 which case that was? Do you recall?
18 A: I'm not -- I'm not sure.
19 Q: But, in any event, there was a
20 discussion about the case being released by the Supreme
21 Court of Canada on September the 12th?
22 A: Correct.
23 Q: Okay. Then the next item?
24 A: "Six (6) native people checked in
25 British

150

1 Columbia, John T. Hill has been to the
2 Camp and left."
3 Q: And who was John T. Hill?
4 A: He was a First Nations person, I
5 believe, from the Six Nations area.
6 Q: Okay. And what was -- why were you
7 making a note of this and he simply volunteered this?
8 A: I --
9 Q: How did this come up that people from
10 the Six Nations were there?
11 A: I don't know how it came up in the
12 discussion, but clearly the relevance is that persons
13 from Ontario were in British Columbia and was the
14 connectivity between Ontario and British Columbia in an
15 ongoing land claim dispute.
16 Q: Okay. And at -- at 9:05 you spoke to
17 Peter Harding?
18 A: Yes, we --
19 Q: And --
20 A: Mr. Peter Harding. I called him at
21 his residence. He's the superintendent of St. John
22 Ambulance in London.
23 Q: Yes.
24 A: I was able to talk t him about some
25 equipment that he might have available and we talked

151

1 about what was available and how I could get a hold of
2 him.
3 And discussed using one of their trailers
4 for a communication trailer and he said he had a nineteen
5 (19) foot unit, Number 701, that was available and that
6 we could meet the next morning at 8:15 at St. John House
7 in London to -- to view the equipment to see if it would
8 suit our needs or not.
9 Q: And were you aware that St. John
10 Ambulance had a communication trailer?
11 A: I knew they had a number of trailers.
12 I wasn't aware they had this particular trailer kitted up
13 as elaborate as it was. I knew they had some equipment.
14 They had actually several trailers but this was the
15 largest and most well-equipped one that they had at that
16 point.
17 Q: And when you called him, were you --
18 what were you calling him to acquire?
19 A: I was looking for a trailer,
20 particularly a trailer for shelter. The -- I needed a
21 trailer that I could deploy at the MNR parking lot where
22 the ERT leaders would be operating from.
23 We, the OPP, didn't have any spare
24 equipment around, a spare trailer so to speak, that I
25 could deploy in that location to provide shelter for the

152

1 officers, other than to have them run their operations
2 out of the front seat of a car or -- or the back of a
3 small van.
4 And I was looking for something a little
5 more substantial for the officers to work from, because
6 they needed to have the ability to be able to -- to store
7 some -- a bit of kit and things like water and supplies
8 for the members as they were taking rest breaks et
9 cetera.
10 So, Mr. Harding was kind enough to provide
11 a trailer that would suit our purpose.
12 Q: And did you meet with him the next
13 morning, on September the 4th?
14 A: Yes, I did.
15 Q: And as a result of that meeting, what
16 happened?
17
18 (BRIEF PAUSE)
19
20 A: I went over to the St. John House
21 location and met with Mr. Harding and viewed a number of
22 trailers and various equipment they had available to
23 them, And they -- Mr. Harding indicated that he would
24 provide the communication trailer if and when we would
25 need it, and he provided me the contact numbers of how to

153

1 get a hold of him or someone from St. Johns so that it
2 could be dispatched if it was required.
3 Q: Okay. Then back to September 3rd,
4 you had a telephone conversation from Sergeant...
5 A: Korosec.
6 Q: Korosec. And that's at 22:05?
7 A: Yes.
8 Q: And can you -- what was that call
9 about?
10 A: The call was from Sergeant Korosec
11 advising that Natives were piling pallets on Matheson
12 Drive, building -- looks like building for a bonfire. I
13 suggested he try to locate someone who's a leader and
14 caution regarding public safety. And I got here, with
15 Constable Speck.
16 Q: And then, 'OC'?
17 A: That's okay.
18 Q: Okay? So, you want him to go down
19 and speak to someone and -- about the fact that -- about
20 a fire being built on Matheson Drive?
21 A: Correct.
22 Q: And, he called you back at 11:30?
23 A: Yes, he did. He called back to
24 advise that there were no serious issues at the beach;
25 basically it was quiet. Information from an unknown

154

1 subject that a male walking a dog entered onto the Base;
2 the dog had been beaten and killed. Information from a
3 friend. The victim didn't want to report it and has not
4 been located at that point in time.
5 Q: And, the -- this was information that
6 someone had provided to him?
7 A: Correct.
8 Q: Now, when you spoke to Peter Harding,
9 either on the evening of September the 3rd or the morning
10 of September the 4th, did you talk to him about an
11 ambulance being provided by St. John's Ambulance for the
12 operation if the operation -- if there was an occupation
13 of the Park?
14 A: I don't believe we got into a
15 discussion about ambulance equipment.
16 Q: You were simply looking for a
17 trailer?
18 A: Correct.
19 Q: Okay. Then, on September 4th at
20 12:45 you had a telephone conversation with Detective
21 Sergeant Richardson?
22 A: That's right.
23 Q: And, it was a discussion about an
24 assault on the beach?
25 A: Correct.

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1 Q: Was it --
2 A: He -- he called in -- in regard to an
3 assault and he advises that:
4 "The victim has not come forward.
5 Unknown who it may be. The information
6 was through a friend?" I have a
7 question mark.
8 And I discuss the -- the enforcement on
9 Matheson Drive:
10 "Appreciate -- appropriate action can
11 be taken. It's a corridor. The safety
12 of our members -- consider safety as
13 the members were surrounded on
14 Saturday."
15 Q: And, what's that refer to?
16 A: There must have been an occurrence on
17 Saturday where our members were surrounded.
18 Q: Okay. And that was one (1) of the
19 things that you talked about in the plan about members of
20 the OPP being on Matheson Drive without being about to
21 get out?
22 A: Correct.
23 Q: Then, at fourteen (14) -- excuse me -
24 - the first note was actually September the 4th at
25 12:45 --

156

1 A: Yes.
2 Q: -- and then the second note at 2:15?
3 You -- there's a telephone call with Inspector...
4 A: Frew -- F-R-E-W.
5 Q: Yes...?
6 A: London Police Department.
7 Q: Yes...?
8 A: That was a -- a call in regards to
9 light armoured vehicles from General Motors Diesel in
10 London. There's a -- a General Motors plant in London
11 that builds armoured vehicles for Military. I was aware
12 that the City of London Police Department had an
13 arrangement with GM Diesel for use of armoured vehicle if
14 it was required.
15 So, I spoke to Inspector Frew and he
16 indicated the arrangements were made through the Deputy
17 Chief and there were members trained to operate it. And
18 one (1) of the officers was Constable Eric Peterson from
19 their Emergency Response Unit who was trained.
20 And discussed having London Police provide
21 a member to operate if -- if it was necessary to assist
22 an OPP operation at which he indicated it would be
23 necessary for the Deputy Chief of the day for the City of
24 London to approve and we'd have to get approval for our
25 contact through GM Diesel as well.

157

1 Q: And you were going to followup with
2 the GM Diesel contact and Deputy Chief Austin?
3 A: Correct.
4 Q: And that's who the Deputy Chief was,
5 Mr. Austin?
6 A: Yes. Elgin Austin was the deputy
7 chief.
8 Q: And why did you want a light armoured
9 vehicle?
10 A: What I wanted was access to a light
11 armoured vehicle in the event there was a requirement for
12 a rescue. I wanted to have the ability to be able to
13 mobilize a rescue operation.
14 There was a potential and again if you're
15 going back to my conversation with Detective Inspector
16 Hutchinson and some of the experiences that was occurring
17 in British Columbia, it had been necessary for them
18 because of coming under fire in British Columbia to
19 utilize military armoured vehicles in order to extract
20 equipment and to move people in a safe fashion.
21 So, in the event that some of our officers
22 were injured or were caught under fire, I wanted to have
23 the capability of being able to mount a safe rescue.
24 Q: And I note that there's no reference
25 in Project Maple unless I've missed it, to a light

158

1 armoured vehicle?
2 A: No. You didn't miss it. It's not in
3 there.
4 Q: It's not in there. And something
5 that you thought you should deal with after the planning
6 meeting on September the 1st?
7 A: I'm not sure when, you know, the
8 thought came to mind but clearly after discussing with
9 Hutchinson and the Gustafson Lake experience, I was
10 certainly alive to the fact that that was a contingency I
11 -- I should at least be thinking through.
12 Q: Then on -- at page 53 of Exhibit 410,
13 you had a telephone conversation with -- from Sergeant
14 Korosec; is that correct?
15 A: Yes.
16 Q: And can you tell us what that
17 conversation was with Sergeant Korosec?
18 A: "I got a phone call from Sergeant
19 Korosec
20 at 4:45 in the afternoon. He advises
21 of a confrontation with Natives on
22 Matheson Drive. Judas George was
23 involved in a verbal confrontation with
24 Korosec.
25 George told that the vehicles on

159

1 Matheson Drive must have licenses and
2 insurance et cetera.
3 George indicated that Matheson Drive
4 was theirs. The Natives moved their
5 vehicle onto the base.
6 There was a discussion about ownership.
7 The discussion about ownership
8 obviously upset the Natives. Possibly
9 want a meeting with superiors. Korosec
10 indicated that that could be arranged.
11 He informed me that there eight (8) ERT
12 members in the area. Grand Bend
13 officers were standing by. The Park
14 campers for the most part, the Park was
15 vacant and the undercover trailer was
16 in the process of being moved out.
17 And that there will be a continue ERT
18 patrol for tonight."
19 Q: And does it -- when it says, "Grand
20 Bend officers standing by" were they at the Park or at
21 Grand Bend? What do you --
22 A: No. My interpretation is they were
23 in Grand Bend. Just aware that there was some issues
24 going on and -- and prepared to respond if requested.
25 Q: Then at 19:40 you receive a telephone

160

1 call from Sergeant Eve?
2 A: Correct. I Received a call from
3 Sergeant Eve. She was at the Number 1 District
4 Headquarters Com. unit, Communication Centre.
5 "Advised Natives who cut the fence at
6 Ipperwash and have entered the Park;
7 Bruce Manning, Glen George. A dozen
8 vehicles. Indicate they are staying in
9 the Park."
10 Q: Then what did you do?
11 A: I called Detective Sergeant Wright.
12 He was dispatched Forest and that I would meet him at the
13 Forest. And I then went to the District Headquarters,
14 picked up some equipment and at ten (10) minutes after 8
15 I was en route to Forest.
16 Q: And then there's a note:
17 "Request Number 1, District
18 Headquarters. Amend 3-6 District ERT
19 to stand by."
20 A: Yes. I called requesting that I
21 think it's Number 1 DHQ advised to -- for the Com. Centre
22 in the Chatham District Headquarters to put three (3) and
23 six (6) district ERT teams on standby.
24 Q: And at 20:50?
25 A: I arrived at the Forest Detachment

161

1 and Constable Johnson was assigned to the scribe duty
2 detail.
3 Q: And is it fair to say that it's at
4 20:50 that -- or when did Project Maple swing into --
5 become operational?
6 A: Technically, shortly thereafter that
7 evening. That was almost nine o'clock at night I
8 arrived, and by the time I had a number of people arrive
9 and were assembled, probably within the next two (2)
10 hours it was technically activated.
11 Q: And Constable Johnson was assigned
12 scribe duties, that was as of ten (10) to 9:00?
13 A: Correct.
14 Q: And if I could take you to book 1,
15 Tab 12. It's Inquiry Document 1002419.
16
17 (BRIEF PAUSE)
18
19 A: Yes.
20
21 (BRIEF PAUSE)
22
23 Q: And there's -- in the upper right
24 hand quarter, these, I take it, are the scribe notes?
25 A: Yes, they are, sir.

162

1 Q: The typed scribe notes?
2 A: Yes.
3 Q: And at Tab 12, we only -- we have one
4 hundred and fifty-eight (158) pages. I think there's
5 something like three hundred and eighty-three (383) pages
6 in the whole scribe notes through the -- through
7 September.
8 But it -- oh, the document number is
9 1002419.
10
11 (BRIEF PAUSE)
12
13 Q: And the scribe notes that we have go
14 to September 9th, covering the period of time --
15 virtually the period of time that you were in attendance.
16 But perhaps we could mark, Commissioner,
17 the scribe notes from September 4th, 1995, page 1 to
18 September 9th, 1995 at -- the last entry is at 8:55
19 hours, it's page 158, as the next exhibit?
20 THE REGISTRAR: P-426, your Honour.
21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-426.
22
23 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-426: Document Number 1002419.
24 Scribe notes (OPP) from Sept
25 04/95 to Sept 09/95. Typed

163

1 pages 1 to 158.
2
3 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:
4 Q: I may have said 156, initially, but
5 it's 158, the last page.
6 And then could I take you to --
7 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Mr. Millar, could
8 you check to see if the last page is 157? Mine is
9 showing that it's 157.
10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, the document is
11 158.
12 THE WITNESS: It's printed both sides,
13 sir.
14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's printed both
15 sides.
16 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thank you.
17
18 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:
19 Q: And then, if I could take you to Tab
20 13?
21 A: Yes.
22 Q: And there -- it's Inquiry Document
23 1000152 and we have pages 370 to page 587 which are
24 handwritten scribe notes for the period September -- up
25 to September 8th, 1995 at 18:45, and have you seen these

164

1 scribe notes before today or getting ready to come here?
2 A: The hand written ones?
3 Q: Yes.
4 A: Recently, yes.
5 Q: And are the -- it's part of your work
6 with respect to getting ready for the inquiry?
7 A: Yes.
8 Q: And are the notes at Tab 13 of book
9 number 1, Inquiry document 1000152, are they the
10 handwritten scribe notes, is that your understanding?
11 A: That's what they appear to be, yes.
12 Q: Perhaps we could mark that as the
13 next exhibit.
14 THE REGISTRAR: P-427, your Honour.
15
16 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-427: Document Number 1000152 OPP
17 Handwritten scribe notes,
18 pages 370 TO 587.
19
20 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:
21 Q: And I note that on P-426 at Tab 12,
22 there's a little note at the upper right-hand corner and
23 do you know what that note says? Is that your
24 handwriting to begin with?
25 A: No, that note has something to do

165

1 with the 14th of September/'95 and I'm not sure what that
2 refers to. My original copy doesn't have any markings on
3 it.
4 Q: And, so you have your original copy
5 with you?
6 A: Yes.
7 Q: And, I note in the scribe note, it
8 starts at 20:18, asked to be scribed by Detective
9 Constable Speck?
10 A: Correct.
11 Q: And, that would have been before you
12 arrived?
13 A: Just before I arrived, yes.
14 Q: Now, you arrive as noted here and in
15 your notebook at 20:50 hours, and the -- at 20:56 hours
16 you have a discussion with Stan Korosec, is that correct?
17 A: Yes.
18 Q: And, can you tell us about that?
19 A: "Stan Korosec called back to Mark
20 Wright briefing and spoke to John
21 Carson. Advised Stan Korosec to
22 control the bridge, keep control of the
23 maintenance shack..."
24 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I'm sorry. I
25 apologize, it's me and probably due to the fact that

166

1 you're going a little bit fast for me -- can I catch up
2 with you -- I --
3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, what page are
4 you on, Mr. Falconer?
5 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: The reason I'm
6 standing is I don't know.
7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's 1002419; page 1.
8 It's a -- it's from the scribe note.
9 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Okay. So Tab 12?
10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Tab 12 in Book 1 of
11 the book that's in front of the Witness.
12 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thank you.
13
14 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:
15 Q: The book that actually -- this
16 conversation -- when did the -- did the -- the telephones
17 start to be recorded, Deputy Carson?
18 A: Telephones?
19 Q: Yeah.
20 A: Well, at this point in time, the
21 mobile command trailer is not at Forest yet. I had it
22 pre-positioned at the District Headquarters in London a
23 couple of days prior so it's after this particular point
24 in time that I've requested that the trailer be
25 brought up to Forest and it becomes active or available

167

1 for use, first thing the next morning.
2 Q: Okay. Excuse me.
3
4 (BRIEF PAUSE)
5
6 Q: So, at this point in time, the lines
7 aren't -- aren't recorded although we'll see shortly
8 after, by midnight or approximately midnight, they are
9 recorded or at least some lines are recorded?
10 A: No, it won't be midnight, it'll be
11 the next day.
12 Q: Well --
13 A: It'll be at least eight o'clock --
14 six 6:00 to eight o'clock in the morning -- through the
15 next morning. What's happening here, we're in the
16 detachment at Forest at this point in time. None of the
17 lines in -- in the detachment in Forest are recorded or -
18 - or they never have been recorded.
19 Q: What's happening at -- I'm sorry,
20 what's -- what's picked up is the logger -- is a -- the -
21 - the transmission that I'm referring to is the
22 transmission between Sergeant Korosec later on, and
23 yourself, but it's a radio communication, so...
24 A: Yes. And, in -- and in that case,
25 radio transmissions would still be overheard and captured

168

1 on tape at the Communications Centre in Chatham.
2 Q: Okay. I'm -- I was getting ahead of
3 myself. So, at any rate, at 20:56 you -- Stan Korosec
4 was advised to control the bridge, was that by you or by
5 Mark Wright. Do you recall?
6 A: I -- I believe Mark was on the phone
7 with Korosec and I was partially involved in Mark's
8 conversation. I -- I know I provided some direction
9 around controlling the bridge area and keeping control of
10 the maintenance shack area. So, I -- I was involved in
11 that conversation to some -- to some degree.
12 Q: And, was it on a speaker phone, do
13 you recall?
14 A: No, it wasn't.
15 Q: No. And then:
16 "Advise we have nine (9) cruisers in
17 Park. Advise them personally to gain
18 their position. Safety issue for ERT
19 is number one (1), if safety threatened
20 use cruiser to go through fence.
21 Sergeant Korosec re-advised of
22 conversation."
23 A: Correct.
24 Q: And were those your instructions?
25 A: Yes.

169

1 Q: And when you say, "advise them
2 personally to gain their position", what are you
3 referring to?
4 The plan that the ERT members would go to
5 various parts of the Park in the event there was an
6 occupation?
7 A: Well and they are -- yes, to hold
8 their positions in the Park. But if it's safety becomes
9 an issue, that safety's first and foremost. And if their
10 safety was threatened and if they had to get out of the
11 Park and if it was necessary to literally ram through a
12 gate, then so be it, that's what they're expected to do.
13 Q: And it looks to me that you spoke to
14 Stan Korosec because it says:
15 "Stand Korosec called back to Mark
16 Wright briefing and spoke to John
17 Carson."
18 A: Correct. That's -- that's what it
19 says.
20 Q: And then it notes:
21 "Off phone Inspector Carson advised
22 Mark Wright of current situation. Give
23 them the opportunity to give their
24 position, check their demeanor, speak
25 of possibility of move out ERT."

170

1 And what's that referring to? Move the
2 ERT outside the Park?
3 A: Of that -- of that -- that may be a
4 necessity, yes.
5 Q: And then:
6 "At 21:07, Detective Sergeant Wright
7 called about getting Number 2 ERT to
8 attend Forest and Number 6 and Number 3
9 to wait until the morning."
10 Is that correct?
11 A: That's correct.
12 Q: And then on page 2, there's a call at
13 21:56 -- there's a call at 21:22:
14 "Sergeant Eves called back, advised
15 district personnel is eighteen (18)
16 ERT, fifteen (15) Lambton, eleven (11)
17 Kent and twelve (12) Essex."
18 And I take it that's simply the officers
19 available in the area.
20 A: Yeah. That's a head count of the
21 people on duty at that time.
22 Q: And then at 21:56 there's a reference
23 to: "Mark Wright called back Sergeant
24 Eves. [26, excuse me, 21:26. Haste
25 makes waste.]

171

1 Mark Wright called back Sergeant Eves.
2 Grand Bend to main gate Petrolia to
3 Forest. Two (2) men Kent to South
4 Lambton. Called Sergeant Lacroix.
5 Advised Lambton deployed. Sergeant
6 Korosec called 10-78."
7 Now, can you just tell us the -- what it
8 means before the reference to Staff Sergeant -- to
9 Sergeant Korosec?
10 A: Whats it means is they're starting to
11 move personnel up into that general area; so they're
12 starting to position some people. The Grand Bend
13 officers to move down to the main gate at the military
14 base.
15 Move some of the Petrolia officers up to
16 Forest. And one two (2) man unit from Kent Country to
17 move up into South Lambton and so it's just trying to get
18 a handle on the resources and start
19 pre-positioning some people.
20 Q: Then the reference, "Sergeant Korosec
21 called 10-78" that's a code for need assistance?
22 A: Yes, it is.
23 Q: And then there's an entry 21:28 you
24 spoke to Sergeant Korosec?
25 A: Yes.

172

1 Q: And can you tell us what you recall
2 of the conversation?
3 A: I can only tell you what it's in the
4 notes, sir. Basically I've articulated to him that we
5 don't want anybody hurt, back off, do what's safe, have
6 everybody report back to Forest.
7 Q: And do you recall what Sergeant
8 Korosec told you was happening when you told him to back
9 off?
10 A: Well there had been a confrontation
11 down there, and if I'm not mistaken there was a cruiser
12 damaged and a flare thrown at the officers, and it was
13 getting pretty serious.
14 Q: And did you subsequently learn that
15 there was -- the cruiser was damaged by a stick carried
16 by Judas George?
17
18 (BRIEF PAUSE)
19
20 A: I was told who did it and how it was
21 done, but I don't see it in the notes here.
22 Q: And then so your order to Sergeant
23 Korosec was to leave.
24 A: Yeah, pull out.
25 Q: Okay. And then at 21:28 Mark Wright

173

1 spoke to Dan Grant:
2 "Get trailer loaded for short term,
3 maps etcetera. Assign Sergeant Wells
4 then Dan Grant come up."
5 And I take it that's with respect to the
6 Mobile Command Unit?
7 A: Yes, I was expecting him to have some
8 supplies loaded into the command trailer which was
9 sitting at the London District Headquarters and Grant
10 lived in the London area at that time, and then for him
11 to come up to Forest.
12 Q: Okay. And then at 21:30 you advised
13 Mark Wright:
14 "Brief as cruiser window smashed.
15 Troops regroup."
16 A: Correct.
17 Q: And that's what you had learned from
18 Sergeant Korosec?
19 A: Yes.
20 Q: Then there's a note at 21:33 of a
21 conversation Trevor Richardson had with Mark Wright with
22 respect to a altercation at 16:00 hours.
23 "Green Ford/mercury grey on front, had
24 butt of rifle in trunk. Advised to put
25 it back without incident. We have to

174

1 find who spokesperson is. Trevor
2 Richardson advised John Carson and Mark
3 Wright of earlier damage to cruiser."
4 And was it your understanding that the
5 earlier damage to cruiser was with respect to the four
6 o'clock incident, or the later incident?
7 Presumably the 4 o'clock incident?
8 A: That's the presumption or --
9 Q: Do you recall?
10 A: No, no. But I know the issue of the
11 rifle -- the butt of the rifle being seen was at four
12 o'clock, that was -- that was earlier.
13 Q: At the earlier confrontation along
14 the beach?
15 A: Right.
16 Q: At the end of Matheson Drive?
17 A: Correct.
18 Q: And then at 21:39,
19 Mark Wright advised Com. centre,
20 everyone to report to Forest."
21 I take it that would be engaging Project
22 Maple?
23 A: Technically, yes.
24 Q: And the idea was the communications
25 centre would alert everyone involved in Project Maple to

175

1 report to Forest as contemplated in the plan?
2 A: Yes, correct. And there was the ERT
3 people who were deployed out at the Park who were there
4 that was under Stan Korosec's command, so we were just
5 ensuring that everybody got the message to get back to --
6 to Forest Detachment.
7 Q: Oh, I see, that's -- I've
8 misunderstood that. I thought that was a general calling
9 out of people with respect to the plan, but it was really
10 to ask the people to come back to the Forest Detachment?
11 A: Yes.
12 Q: The officers that were in the area?
13 A: Right.
14 Q: Okay. And at 21:40:
15 "Mark Wright and John Carson speak of
16 possibility tonight versus tomorrow.
17 Decide what to do if unable to regain
18 access. Speak of we keep control of
19 bridge. John Carson to Mark Wright,
20 'Let's see'..."
21 And what's that refer to?
22 A: Well we had some discussion, as we
23 talked about it earlier, in regards to the geography of
24 the Park that there's the bridge, one (1) access in and
25 out through that -- the gate house or kiosk then over the

176

1 bridge.
2 And so we had some discussion about, you
3 know, could we have personnel in there and at least
4 control the bridge area so that the occupation was
5 between the bridge and the military base, and basically
6 it was a discussion, was what it was.
7 Q: And that -- at -- nothing came as a
8 result of that discussion? You didn't put any people
9 back in by the bridge?
10 A: No.
11 Q: Then just so I understand how these
12 notes work, at 21:45 there's a note:
13 "Les Kobayashi arrived. Briefed John
14 Carson, Mark Wright."
15 And there's a number of different entries
16 the scribe is taking down the gist of what's being
17 discussed?
18 A: Correct. The scribe is to, you know,
19 his personal capability of capturing as much as he can
20 and so he's trying to gather the essence of the
21 discussions that are taking place with the various
22 people, but in particular, his efforts should be focussed
23 on those discussion where the incident commander is
24 directly involved --
25 Q: Okay.

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1 A: -- as opposed to side discussions
2 with someone else.
3 Q: Okay. And, so at this entry, Les
4 Kobayashi arrived.
5 "Briefed John Carson, Mark Wright.
6 Getting TPA, that's Trespass Act --
7 Trespass to Property Act letters and
8 signs -- signs posted. Get
9 injunction."
10 That's something he's telling you?
11 A: Well, we're having a discussion and
12 there was certainly some discussion between the group of
13 us about serving notice and posting signs.
14 Q: Okay. And, what were the signs going
15 to say?
16 A: The Park is closed for the season.
17 Q: Okay. And, do you know if the Park
18 normally had a -- had signs posted on it when it closed
19 on Labour Day that it was closed for the season; was that
20 a normal thing?
21 A: I think what you would find is that
22 the -- the gate entrance when you came up to the --
23 either -- either there would be a barrier at the
24 driveway, or at the gatehouse there would be signage that
25 indicate that.

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1 Q: That was a normal way of -- of
2 indicating it was closed?
3 A: Correct.
4 Q: And, so these were -- the signs that
5 were being discussed were additional signs?
6 A: Yes.
7 Q: And -- that were going to be posted
8 where?
9 A: Possibly throughout the Park.
10 Q: Okay. And then, there's a note
11 that's recorded that:
12 "John Carson advised, Let's let them
13 refuse to leave, then we will get court
14 injunction. We don't want anyone to
15 get hurt."
16 What's that referring to?
17 A: Well, what we wanted to do was ensure
18 that we -- that there was an understanding that -- that
19 the Occupiers would be advised by Les Kobayashi and the
20 Ministry of Natural Resources that, in fact, they -- the
21 Park was closed and that, in fact, they are trespassing
22 and -- and what were looking for at this point is if we
23 serve them notice that they are trespassing that they
24 will, in fact, refuse officially to leave the Park. But
25 the -- the primary piece here was that in doing this we

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1 don't want anybody to get hurt, so basically we're
2 treading lightly as we go, because we just had a
3 confrontation with Korosec's people and we didn't want
4 another, you know, confrontation of -- of any sort.
5 So, it was a matter of how we deliver this
6 notice or -- or make them aware that, in fact, they're
7 trespassing so that the next step to the injunction is,
8 we've taken this step, made the notification, now they
9 refuse to leave, and now you need the Ministry of Natural
10 Resources to move forward and seek and injunction.
11 Q: And, at 21:45 hours on September 4th,
12 did you expect the Occupiers to leave?
13 A: No.
14 Q: Then:
15 "Les Kobayashi has reported that Judas
16 was just uncontrollable; one thousand
17 (1,000) gallons of gas in tank there."
18 And, Judas is Roderick George?
19 A: I believe that's his real name, yes.
20 Q: And, one thousand (1,000) gallons of
21 gas in tank is referring to the maintenance building?
22 A: Yes, the storage tank onsite.
23 Q: Then, you're reported:
24 "John Carson: We may be forced to
25 control outside. We can prepare for

180

1 approximately -- have press release
2 around 6:00 a.m. Take control of area
3 before media advised."
4 What's that referring to?
5 A: Is that -- we may only be able to do
6 a -- a perimeter security as opposed to -- as I spoke
7 earlier about having officers in the Park while the
8 Occupiers were inside. So, it may be necessary now that
9 it's -- well, it was necessary to withdraw. So, now the
10 steps would be that that isn't a viable option any
11 longer, so now we will just hold a -- an exterior
12 perimeter beyond the Park. So, going back to the
13 checkpoints that are identified in the project plan.
14 Q: Okay.
15 A: So, we wanted to get that in place
16 and prepare a media release and then we -- by
17 morning when we were prepared to put the media release
18 out, these particular steps would have been put in place.
19 Q: Then:
20 "Les Kobayashi: If we serve tonight,
21 Peter can work on injunction."
22 And, I take it that's with respect to
23 notice under the Trespass to Property Act?
24 A: Yes, sir.
25 Q: And, "Peter" is Peter Sturdy?

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1 A: Yes, it is.
2 Q: "John Carson: If we speak with them
3 tonight, they will give us an idea how
4 things are going."
5 You wanted to speak to them that night,
6 not only to deal with the trespass issue, but when you
7 refer -- give us an idea how things are going, what are
8 you referring to?
9 A: Well, I was trying to get a sense
10 from the occupiers what their intentions may or may not
11 be and basically I was trying to get a temperature on,
12 you know, if they had anything to say or what -- what
13 they intended to do.
14 If we get down there and have some
15 dialogue, we might get some sense of, you know, what we
16 could expect.
17 Q: Okay. Then Mr. Matheson arrived at
18 the Detachment, he's with the MNR as well?
19 A: Yes, he's the assistant
20 superintendent.
21 Q: And then at 21:52 and Les Kobayashi
22 called Peter Sturdy?
23 A: Yes, he did.
24 Q: And at 21:56, you distributed the
25 Project Maple books?

182

1 A: Yes.
2 Q: The copies of what is now marked
3 Exhibit 424?
4 A: Yes. Yes. Yeah, the maroon binders
5 as the one I --
6 Q: They were maroon at the time?
7 A: All of them were.
8 Q: And there's an entry at 21:59:
9 "Les Kobayashi advised of MNR
10 personnel. Letter being sent down
11 regarding trespassing."
12 At the top of page 4:
13 "Mark Wright is briefing uniform
14 members in the garage."
15 A: Correct.
16 Q: And that was members of the ERT team?
17 A: Yes.
18 Q: And then --
19 A: As well as any other officers from
20 Forest who happened to be there.
21 Q: -- Forest too. Then at 22:12 there's
22 a note with respect to Doug Babbitt.
23 "A press release. Bill Dennis, who is
24 in charge of logistics, and then John
25 Carson: let's do things step by step

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1 here."
2 That's a note of what you said and what
3 did you refer to -- what was being referred to by that,
4 Deputy Carson?
5 A: Well again going back to the various
6 scenarios and the, you know, the trespass to property and
7 notice and refusal of leaving and then going to the next
8 step.
9 And this is just another time of
10 emphasizing that we're just going to take it bit by bit
11 and move -- move slowly basically.
12 Q: And then there's a note at 22:15.
13 Trevor Richardson speaks with you regarding locations of
14 roadblocks when it's time. Then you speak to Les
15 Kobayashi telling him that "
16 "I take it that Doug Babbitt is at the
17 Legion. We have to confirm Natives are
18 in the camp then we will divert media
19 to him."
20 And at the time at 22:15 on September 4th,
21 roadblocks have not -- roadblocks had not been put in
22 place?
23 A: Not as of yet.
24 Q: And you wanted to ensure that people
25 were still in the Park. When you say "Natives are in the

184

1 camp" you meant the Park?
2 A: Correct.
3 Q: And at 22:18 hours there's a note:
4 "Inspector Ron Fox was called by John
5 Carson at his residence advising him of
6 approximately forty (40) Natives in the
7 Park and are setting up camp.
8 Advised him of earlier problems in the
9 afternoon, I'm planning on serving the
10 notice tonight, and working on the
11 injunction. At 22:24 he was off the
12 phone."
13 And why did you call Ron Fox?
14 A: Well, Ron Fox was the First Nations
15 advisor at the Ministry. So I wanted him to be aware as
16 the MNR start to develop their steps to seek the
17 injunction, he would be the go to guy, so to speak, at
18 the Ministry that could assist with police information.
19 Q: When you say: "he would be the go to
20 guy", what do you mean by that?
21 A: Well there would be some requirement
22 of information in order to move on the injunction and by
23 informing Ron Fox, he would have up to date or accurate
24 information of what we had experienced so far so that he
25 can -- could help advise the people from the MNR as they

185

1 develop the application.
2 Q: For the injunction?
3 A: Correct.
4 Q: That was your intention?
5 A: Correct.
6 Q: And as of September 4th, 1945 --
7 1995, had you ever met Mr. Michael Harris, the premier --
8 the then premier?
9 A: No, sir.
10 Q: And had you spoken to him on the
11 telephone?
12 A: No, sir.
13 Q: Had you ever met the Minister of the
14 Solicitor General, Mr. Runciman?
15 A: I may have met him at the time I was
16 a member of the Commissioned Officers Association
17 executive.
18 Q: Yes.
19 A: And I might have met him by that time
20 in my role with the Association, possibly. Like, over
21 the years, like, subsequent to this event, I certainly
22 did, but I'm not -- I wouldn't want to say I had never
23 met him at that point, but if I did it was through my
24 Association business.
25 Q: It wasn't -- the Association is an

186

1 association, a professional association of Commissioned
2 Officers?
3 A: Right, representing the members of
4 Inspector, Superintendent and Chief Superintendent rank.
5 Q: And -- but as a -- on a -- other than
6 that, at September 4th, had you met him in connection
7 with your duties as an inspector or acting superintendent
8 at this time at the OP -- in the OPP?
9 A: No, sir, I hadn't.
10 Q: And had you met Mr. Harnick, who was
11 then the Attorney General, as of September4th?
12 A: No, I had not met him.
13 Q: Had you spoken to either Mr. Runciman
14 with the caveat that you gave me, or Mr. Harnick, up to
15 September 4th, 1995?
16 A: No, sir.
17 Q: And Mr. Hodgson, the then Minister of
18 Natural Resources; had you met Mr. Hodgson?
19 A: No, never.
20 Q: Had you spoken to Mr. Hodgson on the
21 telephone?
22 A: Not at all.
23 Q: And with respect to Mr. Harris, he
24 had an assistant by the name of Ms. Debra Hutton; had you
25 met Ms. Hutton --

187

1 A: No.
2 Q: -- up to September 4th, 1995?
3 A: No, I did not.
4 Q: Had you spoken to her on the
5 telephone?
6 A: No, sir.
7 Q: And with respect to Messrs. Runciman,
8 Hodgson and Harnick, had you spoken, as of September 4th,
9 1995, with any of their executive assistants or political
10 aides?
11 A: None of them.
12 Q: Now, the -- back to 22:18, there's a
13 reference:
14 "Mark Wright advised John Carson of
15 cruiser sheets and the sergeants are to
16 call back if problems are encountered.
17 PC Zacher and other ERT members feel
18 comfortable to take kiosk if possible,
19 as it's only occupied by one (1)
20 person, Judas George.
21 John Carson indicated, 'let's be
22 careful if -- as they are possibly
23 intoxicated'. And both Mark Wright and
24 John Carson agreed that public safety
25 is Number 1 and we need to patrol the

188

1 area."
2 Can you tell me what that is about?
3 A: Well, there was discussion about the
4 fact that there was only one (1) person around the kiosk
5 and we could move in there and take that kiosk over and
6 patrol, basically, from there and they identified that
7 Judas George was the individual.
8 But, as noted just a few minutes earlier,
9 Les Kobayashi had commented about Judas' behaviour. And
10 I was certainly concerned about that and -- and we wanted
11 to make sure, while it would have been preferable to be
12 able to cohabit, that didn't seem to a very viable
13 option.
14 And in particular, you know, we had
15 someone who's behaviour was certainly a concern at this
16 point in time, that I wanted to make sure that Mark
17 Wright and anyone else involved, understand that we're
18 not going to sacrifice anybody's safety in order to move
19 inside the Park.
20 Q: Okay. And at 22:26 there's a note:
21 "Les Kobayashi displayed signs to John
22 Carson, 'Park closed, no unauthorised
23 person permitted beyond this point'."
24 A: Correct.
25 Q: And is that what the sign said?

189

1 A: That's what they presented to me,
2 yes.
3 Q: Okay. And then the -- there's a note
4 at 22:28 about the trespass notice, discussion with Bill
5 Dennis.
6 Then at 22:32 you advised Mark Wright to
7 make a meeting room in the garage and that was, I take
8 it, for the officers?
9 A: Yes, it was.
10 Q: And then at 22:34:
11 "Stan Korosec: There was a discussion
12 about the notice, the trespass to
13 property -- trespass notice and then
14 Stan Korick (phonetic) arrived and
15 began briefing John Carson as natives
16 were throwing flares at us and
17 maintenance building has been broken
18 into."
19 That's with respect to, I think, the one
20 (1) flare -- there was one (1) flare thrown at an
21 officer?
22 A: Yes, there was.
23 Q: And that -- he's reporting on the
24 incident that took place with Roderick George?
25 A: Yes, this is his first -- I think he

190

1 had just arrived back at the detachment and he was giving
2 us the -- the information as he knew it.
3 Q: Okay. Then, Stan Korosec indicated
4 that it was unsafe as people were coming from everywhere.
5
6 John Carson to Stan Korosec:
7 "We will patrol the area for the night
8 continuing just a perimeter patrol.
9 Stan Korosec advised that the Natives
10 told P.C. Speck and P.C. Parks that
11 they would be arrested if anyone
12 stepped onto the Park and they will be
13 confronted."
14 John Carson to Stan Korosec:
15 "Select who you believe is best to
16 serve papers and we will have a cruiser
17 standing by."
18 This was information that Stan Korosec --
19 Sergeant Stan Korosec advised -- gave to you about Parks
20 and Speck?
21 A: Correct.
22 Q: And, the perimeter was -- when you
23 say you were going to patrol the perimeter, I take it
24 that's on Army Camp Road?
25 A: Correct. Outside of the Park proper.

191

1 Q: And, were you going to go down
2 Matheson Drive?
3 A: No, no, no. No, sir.
4 Q: So, it would be on -- on Army Camp
5 Road outside of the Park?
6 A: Right.
7 Q: Okay. Then, there's a note at 22:38
8 you asked who the spokesperson is and that:
9 "We will serve them. This has to be
10 done so that the [junction it reads,
11 but it should be injunction] can be
12 made."
13 Is that correct?
14 A: Correct.
15 Q: Stan Korosec replied:
16 "Maybe we can serve Bert as he seems
17 receptive."
18 That's Bert Manning?
19 A: Correct.
20 Q: "One (1) of the other guys, Judas or
21 someone else will grab one (1) of our
22 guys, arrest them as they said they
23 would."
24 Is that Stan Korosec's comment?
25 A: Yes, I believe so.

192

1 Q: John Carson:
2 "We have to get the papers served so
3 that -- so by daylight we are
4 operational."
5 And, what are you referring to there, sir?
6 A: Well, we were just trying to have
7 some sense that there is recognition that we attempted to
8 -- to serve them notice to vacate the Park and they, in
9 fact, have refused to do that, so that as we report up to
10 through the MNR's requirements in order to seek an
11 injunction that that process has been completed.
12 Q: Stan Korosec advises -- Korosec
13 advises David George:
14 "Some women and kids are present.
15 Advises they -- they will just be
16 hanging around for the night. Mark
17 Wright indicated he will be having
18 Scott Burroughs guarding Forest OPP
19 Detachment as one (1) of the ERT
20 members was followed out from the
21 scene."
22 The reference for I -- Stan Korosec -- can
23 you recall anything besides what's in this note?
24 What's that refer to?
25 A: I got the impression there was just a

193

1 number of people in the Park just hanging about, not
2 doing much of anything, really.
3 Q: And:
4 "Stan Korosec advised that they want a
5 meeting set for 10:00 a.m. tomorrow
6 after other Natives have arrived and
7 confirmed a gun was observed in one (1)
8 of their vehicles earlier."
9 And firstly, what do you recall the
10 reference to a meeting is?
11 A: Yes, that they said they would meet
12 with us the next morning at ten o'clock.
13 Q: One (1) of the occupiers said that?
14 A: That's my understanding, yes.
15 Q: Yes?
16 A: And, there was also the discussion
17 about the firearm being seen in the trunk of the car, but
18 that was the incident we talked about earlier at 4:00 in
19 the afternoon.
20 Q: That was the 4:00 in the afternoon
21 incident. And, as I understand it, there was a gun in a
22 car and one (1) of the Occupiers said to the person who
23 was reaching for the gun to leave it alone?
24 Was that your understanding?
25 A: That's -- that's my understanding,

1 Now, the first reference is to the fact
2 that when the occupiers arrived in the Park it hadn't
3 been closed officially yet?
4 A: That's correct.
5 Q: And, the "Glenn" that's referred to,
6 do you know who he was referring to?
7 Was that Glenn George?
8 A: That's my understanding, yes.
9 Q: And you asked Stan Korosec if he
10 would -- if he was okay with serving the papers?
11 A: Yes. I was trying to get some sense
12 from him how he felt about sending somebody back to serve
13 the papers if there was any about the whole issue of the
14 safety concern obviously.
15 And I went on and -- and you know, the
16 next bit here that again safety is number 1 that if need
17 be, you know, and if we have a problem in there and
18 you're trying to serve the papers, you get out. You
19 don't take any unnecessary or foolish action that gets
20 anybody hurt.
21 Q: Okay. Then -- so your concern was
22 that no one get injured I take it on either side?
23 A: Absolutely.
24 Q: And then at 22:46:
25 "John Carson indicated, 'let's get

196

1 Vinnie (phonetic) to meet with them and
2 Stan Korosec assigned to brief him."
3 And that's Vince George?
4 A: That's correct.
5 Q: "And John Carson indicated I want
6 two (2)two (2) man vehicles on either
7 side of entrance to help if needed then
8 advise Stan okay and Stan agreed."
9 That's with respect to Mr. Vince George
10 going down to the Park?
11 A: Yes. I wanted the officers there in
12 support so if there was a problem, they had the ability
13 to provide some assistance or provide them a way out.
14 Q: And then Mark Wright note's advised:
15 "That ERT guys are available to do this
16 and Stan Korosec indicated that if we
17 deal with Judas, there will be
18 problems.:
19 And what do you take from that? What do
20 you recall Mark Wright wanted the ERT people to do it as
21 opposed to Vince George?
22 A: I think he's talking about the ERT
23 people to provide backup.
24 Q: Backup? Okay.
25 A: And so they were concerned that if

197

1 Judas was the one there, that you might very well expect
2 problems.
3 Q: "Mark Wright indicated if this
4 doesn't work, we can use the press
5 release indicating that they have been
6 served verbally."
7 And that was based on what Stan --
8 Sergeant Korosec had said?
9 A: Correct.
10 Q: That he had told them there were
11 trespassers?
12 A: That's right. And so we'd reiterate
13 that in the press. And so that would be part and parcel
14 of the information around what had been communicated.
15 Q: John Carson: "I want us to do what we
16 can then do a press release let's
17 everybody know we're doing the best we
18 can and we are being gentlemen about
19 this.
20 Then asked Stan Korosec: "Are you
21 okay with that? And he acknowledged
22 Mark Wright is to be briefed that ERT
23 with Stan Korosec and Stan Korosec
24 indicated, yeah, that's good."
25 And that's with respect to serving the

198

1 notice?
2 A: Correct.
3 Q: And the next entry at 22:54:
4 "The Ministry of Natural Resources were
5 going to be based at the Legion Hall."?
6 A: Oh they were going to have a media
7 officer there with Sergeant Babbitt. So, it was to
8 assist them.
9 Q: Okay. And at 22:55:
10 "Rosemary Ur called John Carson and he
11 advised her that Natives were in the
12 Park and assured her that adequate
13 resources are being use and we are
14 working with MNR to address the
15 issues."
16 And the -- do you recall anything else
17 about the conversation with Rosemary Ur?
18 A: No. It was as a recall, a very brief
19 discussion. Just giving her an outline of what had
20 occurred and that we were working with the Ministry of
21 Natural Resources and we had adequate people to deal with
22 the issue.
23 Q: And at 22:57 you're off the phone and
24 you advised that Ur was calling on behalf of her
25 constituents.

199

1 A: Correct?
2 Q: Now, when -- when the scribe is
3 noted, "John Carson advised that Ur was calling on behalf
4 of her constituents" was that something you told the
5 scribe to make a note of or told the people with you in
6 the room?
7 A: I suspect I told them because I'm
8 sure he wouldn't have come up with that terminology on
9 his own just from being told I spoke to so and so.
10 Because quite frankly, I don't think the
11 officer involved would have known who Rosemary Ur was.
12 Q: Okay. Then -- Commissioner, it's
13 five after 4:00, perhaps we could take a short -- I would
14 suggest a ten (10) minute break for the afternoon break?
15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine.
16 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess
17 for ten (10) minutes.
18
19 --- Upon recessing at 4:01 p.m.
20 --- Upon resuming at 4:14 p.m.
21
22 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now
23 resumed. Please be seated.
24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, I --
25 just before we start again, I want to note that we're

200

1 reverting back to the nine o'clock start on tomorrow and
2 Wednesday. I've taken a little longer than I expected.
3 Perhaps if I had not -- I was being
4 optimistic when I -- when I started out with Deputy
5 Carson. Certain people said I was. But, I've spoken to
6 all of My Friends, and no one has difficulty if we start
7 tomorrow morning at nine o'clock.
8 You recall we were going to start at 10:00
9 during Deputy Carson's examination in-chief, but we're
10 going to revert back to nine o'clock for tomorrow,
11 Tuesday, and nine o'clock Wednesday and then our usual
12 nine o'clock on Thursday.
13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'd like to
14 thank all Counsel again for their cooperation and
15 agreement. Thank you. We tried.
16
17 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:
18 Q: Now, the -- at 22:58 there's a note
19 that you advised Steve Reid, who's Steve Reid.
20 A: Steve Reid is one of the sergeants at
21 Forest Detachment.
22 Q: Okay. That the MNR were en route
23 with signs to Forest -- signs to Forest Detachment.
24 Then at 22:58:
25 "Stan Korosec advised Mark Wright and

201

1 you that he was leaving to meet with
2 Vince George regarding briefing."
3 A: Correct.
4 Q: And then at 23:01 you called Chief
5 Superintendent Coles and briefed him --
6 A: yes, I did.
7 Q: -- on the situation, and advising him
8 of the hard time experienced at the gate, with the damage
9 to the cruiser, and the break and enter at the
10 maintenance shed?
11 A: Yes.
12 Q: And then this carries on, does it
13 not, 23:02:
14 "Advised he spoke to Rosemary Ur.
15 Advised of the conversation with her
16 indicating as we speak, letter is being
17 served."
18 And all of these items are part of the
19 briefing that -- your conversation with Deputy
20 Superintendent Coles?
21 A: Correct.
22 Q: And you told him that, among other
23 things:
24 "Holding tight for tonight. Wait for
25 daylight.

202

1 And that referred to what? Simply doing
2 the perimeter check?
3 A: Just to -- yes, exactly. We were
4 doing perimeter checks and we'd get set up in the
5 morning.
6 Q: "Briefed on various entry points"
7 What were you referring to there?
8 A: It's entry points into the Park.
9 Q: And entry points, if they were going
10 to be used by the OPP or --
11 A: I'm not sure how the context of it,
12 but just to -- just briefing him of basically where they
13 were. He -- he would not have had what you would call an
14 intimate knowledge of the Provincial Park, so I was
15 probably sharing with him where the -- the gates were
16 located around the Park.
17 Q: Okay. There's a note farther down:
18 "Les Kobayashi and Vinnie going to
19 serve papers down at maintenance
20 building. Brief on entrance of Park
21 geographically. Advised Ron Fox of
22 situation."
23 You're telling him that you advised Ron
24 Fox of the situation?
25 A: Yes.

203

1 Q: You then discussed:
2 "Spoke again of Ur conversation and how
3 they are claiming land from there to
4 Kettle Point."
5 What's that refer to?
6 A: Which -- which...
7 Q: The bottom of page 7.
8 "Spoke again of Ur conversation and how
9 they are claiming land from there to
10 Kettle Point."
11 A: From the Ipperwash Military Base of
12 Ipperwash Park through to Kettle Point, Ravenswood. That
13 relates back to the comment earlier about, I believe it
14 was Glenn George talked about Ravenswood?
15 Q: And, during the last week there were
16 other references during your evidence to people saying
17 that the land to the west of the Park belonged to the
18 occupiers as well?
19 A: Yes, there had been a number of
20 references to that -- to that point.
21 Q: And, then you told him that Hutchison
22 had called and that's with respect to Gustafson Lake?
23 A: That's correct.
24 Q: Then, at 23:10 you're off the phone
25 and Chief Coles was to notify Deputy Commissioner Boose?

204

1 A: Correct.
2 Q: And, was Deputy Commissioner Boose
3 Chief Superintendent Coles' immediate superior?
4 A: That's correct. He was the Deputy
5 Commissioner of Operations.
6 Q: And so, the normal chain of command
7 would be report up through Deputy Commissioner Boose?
8 A: Correct.
9 Q: Okay. Then, Mark Wright advised you
10 that:
11 "Sergeant Bouwman has been getting
12 calls from Reeves and press. Mark
13 Wright will speak to Reeves."
14 And I take it that's with respect to the
15 township of Bosanquet?
16 A: That's right.
17 Q: And, does Reeves -- who -- it's the
18 plural Reeves -- who else was included in that?
19 A: I -- I don't know who all the calls
20 were coming from, but obviously we had a number of phone
21 calls, so whether it was specific to the Reeve of
22 Bosanquet or -- or which township I'm not sure, but
23 there's a number of townships in the area so I'm not --
24 Q: Okay.
25 A: -- I'm not privileged to which calls

205

1 they actually receive, because I -- would made no note of
2 who they actually came from.
3 Q: And, at 23:12, you tell Mark Wright,
4 Let's get MCU enroute and District ERT on standby?
5 A: Correct.
6 Q: So, it was at this point that you
7 wanted -- you gave the order to bring in the mobile
8 command unit?
9 A: That's right.
10 Q: And then, John Carson to Mark Wright:
11 "Ensure guys outside on security. No
12 civilian to enter without speaking to
13 him."
14 And, what's that refer to?
15 A: Oh, just to make sure there was
16 somebody outside the building -- of the detachment
17 itself.
18 Q: And, no on was to enter without
19 speaking to him?
20 No civilian was to enter without speaking
21 to Mark Wright?
22 A: Yes, at some -- anybody being allowed
23 in the building had to -- to be screened before they were
24 allowed in.
25 Q: And -- by Mark Wright or by -- was

206

1 Mark Wright being your gate keeper at this point?
2 A: No. No, by the -- by the person who
3 would be posted outside the building. Mark Wright may be
4 the conduit that they go to to ask permission to bring
5 somebody in, but he wouldn't be doing the posting
6 outside.
7 Q: Then, there's a note that at 23:14,
8 initially a discussion about the MCU, then, John Carson:
9 "Number 3 and number 6 ERT on standby.
10 They will be on tomorrow with Number 1
11 and Number 2 ERT on tonight."
12 John Carson to Bill Dennis and Dan:
13 "Let's maybe use cottages at Grand Bend
14 if need be on Wednesday. Assign Staff
15 Sergeant Bouwman to that if need be
16 then get command post duty officer for
17 driver, Rick Sadler. Electrician to
18 hook it up here."
19 And, John Carson to Dan Grant:
20 "I'm sure the trailer's parked beside
21 the garage."
22 That's simply dealing with -- calling up
23 the ERT -- the ERT teams, setting up the command post?
24 A: Yes, setting up the command post,
25 arranging accommodation for personnel coming in, the

207

1 usual logistics required for a number of additional
2 personnel.
3 Q: Okay. And Dan Grant; who was Dan
4 Grant? He was assistant to -- oh, he was Sergeant
5 Grant --
6 A: Sergeant Grant and he's a --
7 Q: A training officer.
8 A: That's right and he's handling
9 logistics.
10 Q: Right. And at this point at --
11 shortly after eleven o'clock, calls ambulance, St. Johns
12 in London to have them set up their command post?
13 A: Correct.
14 Q: And that's when you spoke to Peter
15 Harding or someone -- did you speak to Peter Harding or
16 did someone call on your behalf?
17 A: I suspect someone called on my
18 behalf.
19 Q: And then a note:
20 "Brad Seltzer should be here soon and
21 maybe can assist."
22 And he was the negotiator?
23 A: That's right.
24 Q: Then 23:33:
25 "Mark Wright advised John Carson news

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1 now enroute with live truck to video
2 front of detachment."
3 That's simply, the press was on the way?
4 A: Yes.
5 Q: And if we could go over to page 9, at
6 23:55:
7 "John Carson speaking with ERT
8 sergeants about lodging at Pinery."
9 And that's with respect to their -- their
10 people?
11 A: Yes, just availability of beds to put
12 -- I believe it was one (1) district ERT had been on duty
13 and had been using the bunkhouse at Pinery Park.
14 So, it was just some discussion about the
15 bunkhouse.
16 Q: Now, if you have four (4) ERT teams,
17 that's sixty (60) -- approximately sixty (60) police
18 officers; is that not correct?
19 A: Yes.
20 Q: And -- so you were -- the plan was to
21 have two (2) ERT teams on and -- during the day and two
22 (2) ERT teams at night.
23 A: Yes.
24 Q: And it seems -- so that would be
25 thirty (30) police officers during the day and thirty

209

1 (30) at night?
2 A: Yes.
3 Q: And why, at this point, did you have
4 such a large of number, at least from my perspective, a
5 large number of police officers?
6 A: And I guess, with all due respect,
7 that's all about the perspective. Thirty (30) -- thirty
8 (30) officers during the day may sound like a lot of
9 officers, but by the time you put two (2) or four (4) on
10 one (1) checkpoint, for instance, if you put four (4) on
11 each checkpoint, there's sixteen (16) officers.
12 And that doesn't provide someone being
13 assigned to handle the communications for them, for
14 logistics for them, for someone to provide relief for
15 them and a number of other duties that they may be so
16 assigned.
17 So, thirty (30) people at first blush
18 sounds like a lot when you have them all in one (1) spot,
19 but when you have them assigned doing various tasks in
20 any given day, it may not be near so many.
21 So half of them are technically in bed,
22 while the other are on duty, so they're only half on and
23 half off. So, while there are two (2) teams -- four (4)
24 teams, only half of them are available at any given time.
25 Q: And from what you say, then, I take

210

1 it that of the thirty (30) officers on either the day
2 shift or the night shift, not all of those would be
3 doing, in effective, if you had some on the -- some are
4 doing different jobs, logistics jobs, et cetera,
5 communication?
6 A: Well, yeah, and for instance, someone
7 would have to ferry cars back and forth for fuel and
8 those kinds of mundane tasks that are necessary.
9 Someone would be providing relief so they
10 could have their meal breaks. And the fact of the matter
11 is we're still talking early September and depending on
12 the temperature, you may not be able to leave them stand
13 out in the direct heat for, you know, ten (10) hours at a
14 time. You can only leave them for a couple of hours and
15 then spell them off.
16 So, you need to have the ability to rotate
17 some people in and out of checkpoints.
18 Q: Okay. Then at 23:43:
19 "Brad Seltzer arrives and is given a
20 project book."
21 A: Correct.
22 Q: Then at 23:46 there's some -- a
23 discussion, the -- is this a briefing or what is this?
24 There's a whole bunch of separate entries?
25

211

1 (BRIEF PAUSE)
2
3 A: I was simply assigning tasks to
4 various people.
5 Q: Okay. "And Mark Wright suggests that
6 a Crown attend and speak with the crime
7 officer."
8 So, one (1), two (2), three (3), 4th par--
9 A: Yes. Yes that was -- that was the
10 discussion, yes.
11 Q: And did that happen, do you recall?
12 A: I don't believe that the Crown ever
13 attended Forest. I think there was a phone call in
14 regards to the potential charges, you know, what charges
15 were appropriate et cetera so that provided some guidance
16 to the criminal investigators.
17 Q: Then:
18 "Trevor Richardson can look after
19 scene. Looking up part 6."
20 What's that refer to?
21 A: I'm not sure quite frankly.
22 Q: Okay.
23 Then John Carson to Brad Seltzer:
24 "twenty-five (25) to forty (40) people
25 in Park."

212

1 Is that your estimate -- estimate at 11 --
2 approximately quarter to 12:00 on September 4th?
3 A: Yes. I was just providing him some
4 information. He's quite new on the scene there at that
5 point in time. Just giving him some sense of what was
6 going on.
7 Q: Then there's a reference:
8 John Carson to Brad Seltzer: I don't
9 see any negotiators with Mark Eve and
10 Paul Wardle yet."
11 What's that refer to?
12 A: It's just a matter we haven't --
13 other than Brad himself -- Brad Seltzer himself, we
14 haven't called out any other negotiators.
15 Q: And he said that he's got them on --
16 ready for the next day?
17 A: Correct.
18 Q: Then at six (6) minutes after
19 midnight on the morning of September the 5th, there's a
20 note:
21 Mark Wright: Plan was for what we
22 expect. It's not going that way now.
23 John Carson: We are not going in
24 tonight. Mark Wright: To ensure Bill
25 Dennis get ERT food prior to patrols."

213

1 The first -- I take it this is a
2 discussion with Staff Sergeant Wright?
3 A: Yes.
4 Q: And the -- can you tell us what you
5 can recall of this conversation?
6 A: Well the essence is, is that we as I
7 eluded to earlier had intended to at least try to stay
8 within the confines of the Park with our ERT people even
9 though it was being occupied.
10 But in fact the plan wasn't quite working
11 that way and it was necessary to withdraw the officers
12 from the Park. So, in fact, now we were -- had to change
13 our approach and we withdrew from the Park and I was
14 taking the -- or making the point we're not going into
15 the Park tonight.
16 Q: And that begs the question, were you
17 planning on going into the Park in the morning?
18 A: Well it depended on the circumstances
19 in the morning. If it was a possibility of going in and
20 cohabiting but as -- as it turns out in fact we never do.
21 We -- we -- after that point that we're speaking of here
22 in this evening, no officers returned inside of the Park
23 proper.
24 Q: And the plan to cohabitate then was,
25 in affect, at an end?

1 A: To the communication trailer from St.
2 John's.
3 Q: And it was going to go to -- it was
4 directed to go to the Ministry of Natural Resources
5 parking lot?
6 A: That's right.
7 Q: And at this point at, shortly after
8 midnight on September the 5th, had you established the
9 checkpoints yet?
10 A: I don't believe they were underway
11 yet.
12 Q: Then there's a note at page 11:
13 "Steve Reid advised at 12:30 MNR signs
14 arrived."
15 Then there's a note:
16 "John Carson to Mark Wright: Let's
17 keep K9 in mind in case we need to
18 track."
19 What's that a reference to?
20 A: Oh, just to be mindful of the
21 potential requirement of K9 so that if we had to follow
22 somebody for some reason, if there was a -- a pursuit or
23 whatever that we had the ability to use K9 for a track.
24 Q: And then:
25 John Carson: We are not doing anything

216

1 except keep traffic under control."
2 A: Yes.
3 Q: And, what's that refer to?
4 A: We were just controlling the outer
5 perimeter and monitoring the traffic in and about Army
6 Camp Road and East Parkway Drive.
7 Q: Then there's a note at 12:34.
8 "John Carson: Any word back from the
9 guys?"
10 "Mark Wright: No, but Constable George
11 must be talking and negotiating."
12 A: Correct.
13 Q: Then, there's a note:
14 "Stan Korosec wants line patch with
15 John Carson."
16 "Mark Wright to John Carson: We have
17 twenty-six (26) ERT guys."
18 Q: And, that's with respect to the
19 number of ERT members that were available?
20 A: I believe so.
21 Q: And, Commissioner, what I'm going to
22 do, there's a -- there's a number of calls that have been
23 identified that involve Deputy Carson and this is the
24 first, and for My Friends on the master list that I gave
25 out, it's -- I believe it'll be 1 and 2. This is a

217

1 telephone -- you had a conversation with Stan Korosec,
2 it's at 00:38 hours, it's noted?
3 A: Yeah, correct, and just so I could
4 clarify terminology?
5 Q: Yes.
6 A: The word, "line patch" --
7 Q: Yes?
8 A: -- refers to the capability of the
9 Communication Centre, or the officer in the car,
10 connecting the radio transmission to telephone. So, it's
11 a radio-to-telephone connection, it's not phone-to-phone
12 or radio-to-radio.
13 Q: Okay.
14
15 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW)
16
17 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:
18 Q: That next is the same -- same
19 conversation. Now, this is a conversation with Sergeant
20 Korosec?
21 A: Correct.
22 Q: And, 10-19 is...
23 A: Come back to the detachment.
24 Q: And, in fact, they did come back to
25 the detachment? They weren't successful in getting

218

1 anyone to take the letters?
2 A: Correct.
3 Q: And, the front entrance -- Stan
4 Korosec advised they blocked the front entrance with the
5 car, we heard that on the tape. That's the main entrance
6 to the -- the Camp which was marked as number 3, on
7 Exhibit 422? That's the map.
8 I've given you too many pieces of paper,
9 Deputy Carson?
10 A: It's -- it's the official park
11 entrance.
12 Q: Yes, which is number 3 on -- wrong
13 one (1).
14 We'll give you the official copy here.
15 A: Okay.
16 Q: It may be your copy actually.
17 A: Thank you. Yes, through number 3.
18 Q: Okay. Then at twenty (20) to 1:00,
19 there's a note that you want three (3) and six (6) ERT to
20 report at about 7:00 to 8:00 a.m. the next morning?
21 A: Correct.
22 Q: And Dan Grant:
23 "At 12:45, Dan Grant advised to John
24 Carson, we have a driver for the
25 trailer. John Carson advised Mark

219

1 Wright, Stan Korosec is returning.
2 Mark Wright, are we content there
3 notified, John Carson nodded yes."
4 The trailer is -- what trailer is being
5 referred to by Dan Grant?
6 A: It's the Mobile Command Trailer
7 parked in London.
8 Q: And then Mark Wright asks if you're
9 content that they're notified that they're trespassing
10 and you said, you thought they were?
11 A: Correct.
12 Q: Okay. Then at 1:04 there's a note,
13 page 13, Stan Carson to Brad Seltzer:
14 "When Stan Korosec returns, we will be
15 debriefed then. If all is okay, we
16 will go to get rest.
17 Trevor Richardson: First thing
18 tomorrow I am to set up TSP and
19 probes, then meet with Don Vale."
20 If we could stop there, Don Vale is a
21 Crown Attorney?
22 A: He's the Crown Attorney for the
23 County of Lambton, out of Sarnia.
24 Q: Yes. And set up the TSP and probes,
25 what's that referring to?

220

1 A: The -- where the cameras are located,
2 also the listening devices.
3 Q: And were there listening devices
4 activated before September 6th?
5 A: I don't believe so.
6 Q: And were the listening devices
7 activated sometime after September the 6th?
8 A: I believe the telephone and the
9 maintenance shack was accessed.
10 Q: And the probes, is that the probe
11 with respect to -- the listening devices, were they put
12 anywhere else, other than in the maintenance shed?
13 A: I can't be sure, I know I certainly
14 asked for all of that equipment to be put in, but it
15 seems to me that -- that they were never, ever able to
16 complete that, other than the connection to the telephone
17 in the maintenance shack.
18 Q: Hmm hmm. Then if I could just take
19 you back to page 10 for a moment, there's an entry at
20 eight (8) minutes after twelve (12), John Carson doing
21 notes. And on the back page, page 10 --
22 A: Yes. Yes.
23 Q: -- what's that refer to; the notes
24 that are in Exhibit 410?
25 A: The note, my -- my handwritten notes

221

1 that are of that evening.
2 Q: That evening, okay. I just wanted to
3 cover that off.
4 A: Yes.
5 Q: Then at 1:10, "Vince George arrived -
6 - arrived John Carson", I take it you met with him?
7 A: Yes.
8 Q: "Bert Manning, intoxicated with other
9 male attended, wouldn't speak under
10 flashlight. Will meet tomorrow around
11 noon.
12 Vince George: There appears to be no
13 one in Park.
14 Vince George saw David George was going
15 to serve, they backed up, refused to be
16 served. Mark Wright access points are
17 open, do we go?"
18 Can you tell us about what you recall of
19 this conversation?
20 A: Yes, Vince George returned to the
21 Detachment and was basically briefing on his experience
22 there, that he had met with Bert Manning, and there was -
23 - who was there with someone else that Bert Manning was
24 obviously intoxicated, wouldn't speak to him; they just
25 had a flashlight.

222

1 But they would meet tomorrow around noon
2 hour and Vince indicated that there appears to be nobody
3 else in the Park right now, and that he saw David George,
4 but when they attempted to serve him, he backed up and --
5 refusing to accept service.
6 And, Mark Wright discussed the access
7 points were now open, should we consider going in.
8 Q: And, what was your decision with
9 respect to Mark Wright's suggestion?
10 A: As it's indicated, the next entry at
11 1:13, that the direction was to establish a checkpoint
12 and we were simply going to hold tight over night and
13 we'll take a look at it in the morning.
14 Q: And, you go on, you don't want anyone
15 going in and getting ambushed?
16 A: Correct.
17 Q: And:
18 "John Carson: Bert Manning has
19 technically refused to serve. They
20 refuse, we will get in with the
21 paperwork."
22 And, what's that referring to?
23 A: I think it means get on with
24 paperwork.
25 Q: Get on with the paperwork? And,

223

1 that's with respect to -- to --
2 A: To the injunction process.
3 Q: Getting MNR to get an injunction?
4 A: Correct.
5 Q: And, is it at this point that you
6 give the order to establish the checkpoints?
7 A: It appears to be, yes.
8 Q: And, I take it from the comment,
9 Vince George and -- who went with -- Vince George and Les
10 Kobayashi walked in to the kiosk?
11 A: Yes. Yes, they did.
12 Q: Through the main gate?
13 A: That's my understanding, yes.
14 Q: Then, there's a note, Mark Wright:
15 "We can get warrants tomorrow for
16 mischief, guys."
17 That's with respect to the car?
18 A: Yes, to the confrontation when they
19 initially came into the Park in the -- later in the
20 afternoon.
21 Q: Okay. John Carson:
22 "We'll look at it tomorrow."
23 "John Carson: We need people at 21
24 Highway. Trevor Richardson 21 and Army
25 Camp Road and one (1) around the

224

1 corner.
2 John Carson: If you six (6) guys use
3 it."
4 What's that refer to, setting up a
5 checkpoint at Highway 21 and Army Camp Road?
6 A: Yeah, that's correct. It's
7 attempting to establish checkpoints that control access
8 in and around the Park and the Military Base.
9 Q: Okay. Then, there's a note at the
10 bottom of the page. John Carson:
11 "Don't be right in front of the Park."
12 "Stan Korosec: Park at Sunnyside
13 Trailer Park."
14 "John Carson: Yeah, okay."
15 And, I take it you're instructing the
16 officers not to set up a checkpoint right in front of the
17 Park?
18 A: Exactly.
19 Q: And, Stan Korosec talks about
20 Sunnyside Trailer Park, and you say, that's fine?
21 A: correct. That's in the area of
22 Sunnyside; Silver Birch is right in that same stretch
23 there at the crest of a hill.
24 Q: And, Sunnyside is closer to Army Camp
25 Road? I mean, closer to the Highway 21?

225

1 A: I believe so, yes.
2 Q: And, north of Matheson Drive. So, at
3 this point you're not establishing the checkpoints that
4 were laid out in the plan?
5 A: Correct.
6 Q: Then:
7 "John Carson to Les Kobayashi: We will
8 hang onto service. If we could get a
9 chance officially, and sit down with
10 them, and give it to them, but they
11 know.
12 John Carson to Les Kobayashi: Go over
13 press release -- brief press release."
14 Les Kobayashi agreed and what's that refer
15 to?
16 A: It's just having Kobayashi also
17 review the press release to ensure that the information
18 there is accurate and reflective of any issues or
19 concerns that they may have from the Ministry of Natural
20 Resources' perspective.
21 Q: Then, at 1:27 there's a note:
22 "Mark Price -- Wright briefing one (1)
23 and two (2) ERT in presence of John
24 Carson."
25 That's in the garage?

226

1 A: Correct.
2 Q: "John Carson: Be careful, media will
3 be everywhere; a lot like BC
4 situation."
5 Again, that's Gustafson Lake?
6 A: Correct.
7 Q: Then:
8 John Carson: On hours off, be careful,
9 your safety; don't speak about this
10 anywhere, coffee shop, etcetera. A lot
11 of planning into this; safety is
12 important. Rather have ten (10) guys
13 too many rather than one (1) not
14 enough."
15 And, I take it that you -- you're telling
16 -- this is your -- your part of the briefing to one (1)
17 and two (2) ERT teams?
18 A: Correct.
19 Q: And that, you would rather have too
20 many people than not enough people?
21 A: That's correct.
22 Q: And:
23 "no big deal with the damaged vehicle.
24 If you get caught in a jackpot, I'd
25 rather have one (1) bent metal than you

227

1 injured. Drive the Crown Victoria
2 through the fence."
3 I take it -- what are you referring to
4 there?
5 A: Well just referring to the point that
6 if -- if their safety was in jeopardy, I expect them to
7 take whatever steps necessary to avoid anyone getting
8 hurt. And if that meant driving a car through the fence
9 to get out of there, to avoid someone being injured,
10 that's what I expected them to do.
11 Q: Then there's a note:
12 "Mark Wright: We need structured chain
13 of command.
14 John Carson: Forest will be only a
15 command office. We want to do this
16 right. Everyone from here to federal
17 people.
18 Mark Wright: I'm not telling what to
19 carry or not to carry re: firearm, long
20 guns. Use common sense. That tactical
21 part is Stan Korosec's call."
22 And I -- is this still part of the
23 briefing?
24 A: I'm not sure.
25 Q: And the reference "We need structured

228

1 chain of command." That's what Project Maple calls for,
2 is that not correct?
3 A: That's correct, it does.
4 Q: And:
5 "John Carson: force will be -- will
6 only -- the only 'A' command office."
7 Should that not be 'will be only command
8 office'?
9 A: Yes. I think the point there is --
10 is that the Detachment is going to move up to Grand Bend
11 and so it's being used for a Command Post.
12 Q: And the reference "Everyone from here
13 to federal people"?
14 A: I think again, I'm just trying to
15 point out the chain of command, and as things work up
16 whether, you know, regardless of who it is, that there's
17 an appropriate way of information being moved through the
18 system.
19 Q: And at 1:40:
20 "Trevor Richardson to John Carson:
21 John, Command Centre arrived."
22 A: Correct.
23 Q: And is that the Mobile Command Unit?
24 A: Yes, sir.
25 Q: And then a note at 1:48:

229

1 "Return to briefing by Stan Korosec.
2 John Carson: We stopped everyone to
3 ID. We can't stop press."
4 And was that your instructions?
5 A: Yes, it must have been.
6 Q: To make sure you identify everyone?
7 A: Yeah. Just identify people who were
8 coming through. Like if someone had to go to the trailer
9 park or through the area, they would stop them, check to
10 make sure they had business to be there, and know who was
11 moving through, and then they'd be allowed on.
12 Q: The -- My Friend, Mr. Sandler points
13 out that it -- it says that is that St. John command
14 centre and if we go to the handwritten note --
15
16 (BRIEF PAUSE)
17
18 A: Yes, that must be the case because in
19 fact --
20 Q: Oh yeah. Excuse me, if we carry on:
21 "St. Johns -- St. John driver explained
22 option of meals being provided. Paul
23 Harding's driver introduced to PC Parks
24 to show him the location."
25 A: Correct. I -- I've -- it's my error.

230

1 It's the -- it is the St. John's in fact. It's Paul
2 Harding's driver.
3 Q: It's both our -- it's both our error
4 Deputy Carson, and I had note that it was St. John's
5 actually so...
6 A: Yeah I believe the -- the larger
7 command trailer for the Forest Detachment actually
8 arrives after I had left for the night.
9
10 (BRIEF PAUSE)
11
12 Q: And from My Friend's reference at the
13 top of page 15, it says:
14 "John Command Centre arrived. Then St.
15 John driver explain option of meals."
16 A: Correct, sir. Correct.
17 Q: And that's a reference to the St.
18 John's Ambulance driver?
19 A: Yes, I believe so.
20 Q: And because at 1:51 there's a note:
21 "Trailer should be here. The -- the
22 trailer left London at 12:50, should be
23 here at 6:00 a.m."
24 Or somebody should:
25 "Trailer should be here at the same

231

1 time."
2 And that's the Mobile Command Unit?
3 A: Yes. There's two (2) different
4 things there. John Fuller and the trailer are two (2)
5 different issues. But the trailer should arrive at the
6 same time as -- as Fuller.
7 Probably the driver left Orillia at 12:50
8 and had to go to London, connect to the trailer, and drag
9 it up to Forest.
10 Q: And then there's a reference at 1:55
11 to:
12 "John Carson called back Doug Babbitt
13 to readjust press release. Speaking
14 with Les Kobayashi re: day use visitors
15 evacuated."
16 What's that refer to?
17 A: What's that refer to? I'm sorry.
18 Q: At 1:55?
19 A: Yes.
20 Q: What's being referred to "day use
21 visitors evacuated"?
22 A: I'm not sure. The only thing I -- it
23 could be I -- I suspect is that when all this was
24 happening that people were told to leave the park, and
25 perhaps that was the information that Kobayashi was

232

1 providing, that would be more accurate than whatever
2 detail was in the media release in its former state.
3 Q: Then there is a reference:
4 "John Carson to Kevin Robson:
5 Arrange to move OMPPAC [O-M-P-P-A-C] in
6 Breath Room to MCU."
7 What is OMPPAC?
8 A: That's the electronic record system
9 used by the Ontario Provincial Police and about forty
10 (40) other municipal police agencies. And what that
11 means is Robson was requested to move a line, like a
12 telephone data line, from the Breathalyzer Room in the
13 Detachment and prepare it so that it could be strung out,
14 and installed into the Mobile Command Trailer when it
15 arrives so that we would have computer access in the
16 trailer once -- once it's installed.
17 Q: And can you tell us what the acronym
18 OMPPAC means -- O-M-P-P-A-C, stands for?
19 A: The Ontario Municipal and Provincial
20 Police Administrative Cooperative.
21 Q: Okay. Then I note that you're off
22 duty at 2:04?
23 A: Correct.
24 Q: And who's left in charge overnight?
25 A: Sergeant Steve Reid.

233

1 Q: Pardon me?
2 A: Sergeant Steve Reid.
3 Q: And there's a note at 4:50:
4 "At 3:30 set up classroom for
5 debriefing in garage."
6 That's to use it as -- as we've said, for
7 the -- the ERT Units when they come on and off duty?
8 A: Correct.
9 Q: And that's 3:30. And then at 4:54:
10 "Mobile Command Centre arrive.
11 Electrician, Sergeant Cousineau and
12 Sergeant Reid went to set same up."?
13 A: Correct. The electrician is separate
14 from Sergeant Cousineau.
15 Q: Yes. And then there's a note at
16 5:45:
17 "Sergeant Graham advised by radio St.
18 John Command Post ran out of fuel."
19 It was on its way to the MNR parking lot
20 or on its way there, and ran out of fuel?
21 A: I suspect it was the generator on the
22 site.
23 Q: The generator on site -- oh, thank
24 you. Then you reattended at the Command Post at 6:58 in
25 the morning?

234

1 A: Correct.
2 Q: And you spoke to Les Kobayashi?
3 A: Yes.
4 Q: And a person by the name of Darryl?
5 A: Right.
6 Q: And then George Vandamme briefed you
7 on the night activity?
8 A: Correct.
9 Q: And who is George Vandamme?
10 A: He's a Sergeant for the Number 2
11 District ERT Team.
12 Q: Then at 7:10 you give an instruction:
13 "John Carson to Stan Korosec: Mark
14 Wright, CRO to be only ones in Command
15 Centre."
16 And can you tell us a little bit about the
17 Command Centre, how it was set up?
18 A: The -- the Command Centre is a 45
19 foot, similar to a transport trailer, and the forward
20 approximately third of the trailer, so you come in the
21 door, you can either turn to the right to go to the
22 forward compartment or left and go into the meeting area.
23 If you go into the forward compartment it
24 is basically a mini com centre. It's set up with, I
25 believe, it's two (2) -- two (2) radio operator

235

1 positions, with telephones, and all of the paraphernalia
2 required to operate a communications centre.
3 It has a logger recording equipment in
4 there, and basically it's a place where two (2) radio
5 operators can sit and there's desk level -- well, their
6 desks are built into the wall on either side, and they're
7 able to put maps up in behind the walls, behind their
8 equipment, to track their events that they are doing.
9 So -- so basically what you have is, you
10 come in the door turn right, you have a communications
11 centre, if you turn to the left there's cabinetry that's
12 built up so that you basically stand in that area, and it
13 comes up so that when you're standing there you can -- it
14 -- it's the appropriate height for writing and there's
15 several phones, I believe three (3), possibly four
16 (4)phone stations in that area of the Command Centre.
17 But it's -- it's basically designed with cupboards and
18 equipment to be a meeting area.
19 Q: And is that the part of the command
20 centre that you used?
21 A: Yes.
22 Q: And there was to be only one (1)
23 civilian -- CRO means Civilian Radio Operator?
24 A: Correct.
25 Q: And only one (1) Civilian Radio

236

1 Operator in the communications centre?
2 A: I -- I think what -- what they're
3 trying to say here is: Mark Wright and the CRO to be the
4 only ones. Like, there could be more than one (1) radio
5 operator.
6 Q: Oh, I see, yeah.
7 A: But --
8 Q: Okay.
9 A: -- if they're in there, they were
10 radio operators, they --
11 Q: Yeah.
12 A: Like people just couldn't come in
13 there and visit and -- and just hang out, so to speak,
14 because they had nothing better to do. If they were in
15 there, they were there to work as radio operators.
16 Q: And then -- and then with respect to
17 you as Incident Commander, you would invite whoever you
18 wanted to be in that part of the trailer that you were
19 using?
20 A: Yes, the -- the management team as
21 outlined in the project plan, what we established, was
22 regular meetings. So they would come in and that's --
23 that is the place where we would have our discussions.
24 Q: Okay. Then there -- at 7:11 there's
25 a note, and this is the discussion with your management

237

1 or some of your management team?
2 A: Correct.
3
4 (BRIEF PAUSE)
5
6 Q: Then there's a note:
7 "John Carson: Do we have anyone in
8 plain close -- clothes to check around?
9 Trevor Richardson: Me and George can
10 do.
11 John Carson: Let's brief and brief --
12 debrief guys at checkpoint.
13 John Carson, Stan Korosec and Mark
14 Wright to debrief them at Detachment
15 then can do forms."
16 What's that referring to?
17 A: That's a discussion about how we get
18 the information that the officers have accumulated over
19 the evening shift, or at the end of any particular shift,
20 so that the new personnel go out and -- and relieve the
21 people who are on point duty.
22 And once they are relieved of that task,
23 they come back to the Forest Detachment to the garage
24 where they are debriefed as to the events overnight and
25 fill out the appropriate paperwork in order to capture

238

1 the activities that -- that we need to log.
2 Q: Then there's a note:
3 "Stan Korosec, CRO, ERT leader in nose
4 of trailer. John Carson, Mark Wright
5 and Karen Shaw in rear."
6 A: Correct.
7 Q: And --
8 A: So that's kind of the set up --
9 Q: And --
10 A: Who's in the com. centre part of the
11 trailer and who's in the meeting area.
12 Q: The com. centre was the nose part of
13 the trailer?
14 A: Correct.
15 Q: And that was going to be Stan
16 Korosec, the Civilian Radio Operators and the ERT leader.
17 Is that -- refer to -- Stan Korosec was the leader of the
18 ERT teams?
19 A: Correct. That -- that is -- that is
20 who is there.
21 Q: That's him? And then you, Mark
22 Wright, and Karen Shaw. Karen Shaw was the principle
23 scribe?
24 A: During day shift, yes.
25 Q: During the day shift?

239

1 A: Yes.
2 Q: Then you give an order:
3 "Every hour we will have five (5)
4 minute debriefing just to ensure all is
5 updated and Mark Wright suggests, let's
6 call Don bell and Jim Dyke to assist in
7 plain clothes."
8 I take it Mark Wright suggests that they
9 be used to go out in plain clothes?
10 A: Correct. Well they normally do
11 conduct their duties in plain clothes.
12 Q: Okay. Then there's a note:
13 "The meeting is complete."
14 And at 7:40 there's a note:
15 "John Carson is briefing all."
16 And I take it that's the -- who are you
17 briefing? The Number 3 and 6 ERT's, it's shown at 7:29?
18 You see the entry at 7:29?
19 A: 7:29?
20 Q: Yeah:
21 "John Carson stood in on Mark Wright's
22 debriefing of --"
23 A: Oh, yes, yes, that would be in the
24 garage area.
25 Q: And then at 7:40:

240

1 "John Carson is briefing all --
2 briefing. All we want at this point is
3 to contain the area. Today we have to
4 access everything, just the control the
5 area. We don't want
6 to get ambushed"
7 And what are you referring to there?
8 A: Well, what I'm saying is, is we're
9 just doing containment at -- this -- that's what this
10 detail is at this point in time, we'll set up the
11 checkpoints and do the containment, and we're just
12 controlling the movement in the area, and we don't want
13 to do anything that precipitates us getting ourselves
14 ambushed.
15 Q: And:
16 "John Carson: Nobody to be alone."
17 That's to -- refers back to the
18 instruction that there would be two (2) person cars?
19 A: Yes, it's just a personal safety
20 issue.
21 Q: And:
22 "Mark Wright distributed eight (8) by
23 ten (10) aerial photos to Sergeants ERT
24 -- the ERT Sergeants."
25 That's to the Sergeants of each of the

241

1 four (4) -- the two (2) teams in this case?
2 A: Yeah, the two (2) -- the two (2) new
3 teams that just arrived.
4 Q: "Mark Wright: We want everyone in
5 greys on the road.
6 John Carson: Plan on being here for a
7 few days."
8 At this point you thought it was going to
9 be a few days?
10 A: I think I was being optimistic.
11 Q: And but at least you felt you were
12 going to be there for a few days?
13 A: For sure.
14 Q: Then as we go on at 7:55, there's a
15 note:
16 "John Carson informed Karen Shaw of her
17 role."
18 And I take it as scribe?
19 A: Correct.
20 Q: And do you recall what you told her
21 about her role?
22 A: I -- I'm unable to recall the
23 discussion specifically, all I could do is -- is suggest
24 to you what I would normally tell any scribe that had
25 worked for me.

242

1 Q: And that's what you told us a little
2 bit earlier?
3 A: Correct.
4 Q: Then:
5 "Mark Wright advised John Carson that
6 Staff Sergeant Bouwman attending
7 Bosanquet,
8 meeting with the Mayor."
9 And that's the Mayor Fred Thomas?
10 A: That's correct.
11 Q: And John Carson:
12 "We have contact with Tom Bressette."
13 And what are you referring to there?
14 A: That we're able to speak with Tom. I
15 believe shortly thereafter I actually am speaking to him
16 in a few minutes.
17 Q: And at 18:18, there's a note of you
18 speaking to Chief Tom Bressette, and I'll just -- this
19 actually was marked as part of Exhibit 250 before, but
20 I'm going to play it from this disk.
21
22
23 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW)
24
25 John CARSON calling Tom BRESSETTE

1 night and ah or late yesterday afternoon
2 and ah went into the park and there was a
3 little bit of a to do with some of our
4 fellows who were patrolling there, and ah
5 they basically said they were going to
6 take over the park. Ah, a couple things
7 if ah you don't mind, um, we've ah got ah
8 we brought ah some people in overnight and
9 ah we've set some checkpoints up in the
10 area and were going to ah see if we can
11 find out what ah their plans are today.
12 Ah we're going to try and ah talk to them
13 as soon as we can and ah as far as we're
14 concerned ah and it's my understanding
15 there is no land claim issue with
16 Ipperwash Park. Is is that fair to say
17 from the bands point of view.
18 BRESSETTE: Well, not not right now no.
19 CARSON: Right. Like there there's no there has
20 been no claim ah by the band or anybody
21 else that I'm aware of, that ah you know
22 is before any court or been in you know
23 lodged in any you know formal sense of it.
24 BRESSETTE: No we haven't issued any kind of any kind
25 of Land Claimed owner.

245

1 CARSON: Right and ah so like as far as ah we're
2 concerned at this point, it's clearly a ah
3 trespassing issue ah.
4 BRESSETTE: I think if you checked the records, that
5 particular park was sold by ah, Members of
6 Stoney Point.
7 CARSON: That's right, that's right, it was and
8 then it was sold to individuals and then
9 sold back to the province. I think ah in
10 1936, if I'm not mistaken and in 38 it was
11 er 36 or 38 it was sold to the province
12 and then made a provincial park at that
13 time.
14 BRESSETTE: Ah, well that's my understanding.
15 CARSON: Yeah.
16 BRESSETTE: I haven't really checked all the records
17 on it (u/I).
18 CARSON: Yeah well ah Natural Resources have done
19 that and we have the documentation for
20 that that that seems to be pretty
21 accurate.
22 BRESSETTE: I'll tell you where this thing started
23 from John, there was some archeologist
24 went down there and told those people that
25 ah these people desecrated a burial ground

246

1 here by building this park here and he
2 told them that ah, that ah they could get
3 millions of dollars from the provinces as
4 a result of that.
5 CARSON: Oh! Is that right.
6 BRESSETTE: That's where all of this thing comes from.
7 There's a bunch of whackos running around
8 loose and ah whatever those people hear
9 from one person they believe it to be the
10 gospel truth.
11 CARSON: Right.
12 BRESSETTE: And ah, I don't know, I think you are
13 going to continue to have problems with
14 our group until somebody ah enforces a law
15 against them.
16 CARSON: Well we're we're trying to address that
17 now and ah you know the provincial park is
18 certainly a different issue than the DND
19 property. Ah ah you know that we we have
20 no say over the DND issues as you know
21 because it's a federal federal control.
22 Ah but at this point ah we're going to ah
23 MNR is going to for ah before the court
24 and get a court injunction.
25 BRESSETTE: Yeah.

247

1 CARSON: And ah we'll deal with it that way.
2 BRESSETTE: Uh huh.
3 CARSON: So ah is there any chance ah that that you
4 could call your counselors together and
5 kind of brief them on that from ah
6 basically what what I've what I've told
7 you. Like we're we're you know cause
8 like what what I would like to avoid if I
9 can is is some sense that we are going to
10 be heavy handed and go out and ah and you
11 know and and jump to a conclusion and all
12 that kind of thing. Like we're going to
13 try and (CAN'T READ THESE FEW WORDS) Park
14 ah in the short term.
15 BRESSETTE: Well.
16 CARSON: And and ah you know and and their going to
17 be have the opportunity to leave, but
18 their going to be dealt with as
19 trespassers.
20 BRESSETTE: Well to be honest with you John all the
21 counsel here is tired of those folks here.
22 CARSON: Well, is that right eh.
23 BRESSETTE: Yeah, there there is a lot of them who
24 aren't even members here that are giving
25 us a bad name and a bad reputation around

248

1 this part of the where we live. They
2 don't even live around here some of them.
3 CARSON: Right, right.
4 BRESSETTE: I think mainly the MANNING family were
5 involved in what went on down there from
6 what I understand.
7 CARSON: Oh, okay.
8 BRESSETTE: And they haven't lived here their whole
9 lives.
10 CARSON: Right. Well I know they've they've a yeah
11 well. Yeah but if all you know if there
12 is anything ah that you have questions
13 about or or counsel has concern, like like
14 I'm gonna be here in Forest for the
15 duration I guess, till we get this sorted
16 out and ah ah we'd like to you know keep
17 ah, you know the lines open I guess
18 between counsel and ourselves to you know
19 any concerns or whatever so they have an
20 idea of what, you know, what were what's
21 going on.
22 BRESSETTE: Yeah, we'll I've never had any concerns.
23 The only concerns I always had like I told
24 you I don't know how come those people get
25 away with ah running in somewhere and

249

1 saying this is our land. The the land at
2 Ipperwash even is held for the whole band,
3 not for those few individuals down there.
4 CARSON: That's right. Yeah.
5 BRESSETTE: And ah they are because they've been
6 allowed to flaunt that they walked in
7 there and took over and nobody did
8 anything. They're just gonna keep on with
9 that attitude and there's a fellow there
10 named Les JEWELLS who seems to be causing
11 all the trouble down there.
12 CARSON: Right he sure seems to ah pop up a lot.
13 BRESSETTE: Oh he's the one and I've said this from
14 the (u/I) I don't know why you know that
15 guy's allowed to go in and out of
16 Ipperwash, he don't have any business
17 here. He's the one that's stirring them
18 all up to all of this trouble. He told
19 MR. ERROL MENDES: all the parks in
20 Canada, they can take whatever they want.
21 CARSON: (laughs) well we'll have to see ah what
22 the government says. I mean their their
23 gonna you know obviously be dealing with
24 it at a much higher level than I from that
25 perspective and ah I imagine before the

250

1 day's out they will have ah, the the
2 people will be humming anyways so. We've
3 made notification up to, up to chain, I'm
4 sure it will be a big issue today and ah
5 we'll just swing with it and ah try and
6 control it the best we can and see if we
7 can come out without ah you know too much
8 problem.
9 BRESSETTE: Well you know it's too bad you you guys in
10 the defense or the federal people couldn't
11 get together and try and clean this mess
12 out because that's what's causing all this
13 trouble that they've allowed to overstep
14 their boundaries in many ways and ah their
15 just using that as a method and it's sort
16 of building them enthusiasm in MR. ERROL
17 MENDES: to continue on doing what their
18 doing.
19 CARSON: Right.
20 BRESSETTE: And I, I don't know, I kind of warn people
21 that I had heard that there was ah ah
22 something going to happen this weekend.
23 CARSON: Right.
24 BRESSETTE: And ah that's as much as I can do whenever
25 I hear rumblies. I let Indian Affairs

251

1 know there was going to be trouble. I
2 don't know if they told you or not but
3 CARSON: Well we we had the same information on you
4 know that we you know we we had heard that
5 one.
6 BRESSETTE: Uh huh.
7 CARSON: So it's really not a major surprise.
8 BRESSETTE: Yeah.
9 CARSON: Quite frankly unfortunately (laughs).
10 BRESSETTE: Yeah.
11 CARSON: But anyway we're will try and deal with it
12 the best we can and ah like I say I'd like
13 to keep the the communication open if
14 there is anything we can do to answer any
15 questions for you. Like don't be afraid
16 to call and ah you know that type of thing
17 and ah.
18 BRESSETTE: Yeah well I don't think you know we have
19 any concerns we, I I don't know, as far as
20 I'm I'm concerned myself I think both
21 people have to be dealt with somehow.
22 CARSON: Well I I agree and we have to do it the
23 best we can.
24 BRESSETTE: Yeah.
25 CARSON: Ah.

252

1 BRESSETTE: Treating them with (u/I) gloves isn't
2 something I don't think that they
3 understand.
4 CARSON: (laughs) I yeah, I hear yah (laughs)
5 BRESSETTE: Yeah.
6 CARSON: Yeah.
7 BRESSETTE: So I if I I hear anything John, I'll get
8 in touch with you or anything else I
9 CARSON: Okay.
10 BRESSETTE: I've always tried to work with you guys
11 whenever there is some kind of problem
12 happening.
13 CARSON: Well and I appreciate that and ah like I
14 say if there is anything we can do ah,
15 like just give us a call. We want to work
16 through this thing together the best we
17 can.
18 BRESSETTE: Yeah.
19 CARSON: Okay.
20 BRESSETTE: Alrighty.
21 CARSON: Thanks a lot.
22 BRESSETTE: Yep.
23 CARSON: Right.
24 BRESSETTE: (u/I).
25 CARSON: Take care.

253

1 End of conversation.
2
3 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:
4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, I
5 suggest that we break for the day at this, but for the
6 benefit of My Friends and --
7
8 (BRIEF PAUSE)
9
10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The volumes that we've
11 circulated last week or the week before, actually the
12 week before, there's Volumes I and II, and it contains
13 transcripts of many of the calls that involve Deputy
14 Carson. This particular call with Chief Bressette has
15 been marked as, I believe it's Exhibit 250. But
16 virtually all of the calls are in here.
17 There's some minor typographical issues
18 with some of them, but -- and after we're finished with
19 all the calls, I'm going to ask that these two (2) books
20 be marked as an exhibit.
21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Fine.
22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And perhaps, sir, we
23 could adjourn now until tomorrow morning at 9:00 a.m.
24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If we're
25 starting at 9:00, I think we should. Oh, it looks like

254

1 Mr. Orkin has got a comment.
2 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Thank you,
3 Commissioner. My Friend, Mr. Millar, just referred to
4 exhibit numbers, and I'm not sure whether this was an
5 oversight on the previous tape that I had played.
6 Shall I repeat that? Commissioner, My
7 Friend referred a moment ago to exhibit numbers, Mr.
8 Millar did, and it may have been an oversight on my part,
9 but I don't think the previous tape was given an exhibit
10 number.
11 And I wondered whether it was his
12 intention perhaps now that the evidence has been
13 introduced through a witness, to do that, and perhaps
14 give an exhibit number to this tape too, or to clarify
15 for us when he proposes to do that?
16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, what -- what I
17 had proposed was -- and -- and Mr. Orkin's question is a
18 very fair question, I should have addressed it. The --
19 what I proposed to do was perhaps reserve an exhibit
20 number for a disk that has eighty-two (82) of these calls
21 on it. There are -- there's going to be three (3) disks
22 with many, many, many calls, they're separate .wav files.
23
24 And I was then going to ask that we mark
25 the actual disk at the time when we're finished with the

255

1 calls. But, clearly, as each call is played the way file
2 is then a public -- that particular call is -- is public.
3 It's just that I haven't done over a hundred (100) CD
4 ROMs because that's what it would be, Mr. Orkin, if we
5 did it.
6 So we have, on this particular CD, we have
7 approximately eighty-four (84) telephone calls. On
8 another CD we have another series. And -- but as each of
9 these are played, I agree, that it's a public document,
10 it's just that the physical disk I was going to mark --
11 mark it as an exhibit --
12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Perhaps you
13 could assign a number to the disk now?
14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure. We could --
15 perhaps what we could do is assign the next number to the
16 telephone calls, the disk of telephone calls. It would
17 be Exhibit --
18 THE REGISTRAR: Four, twenty-eight (428).
19
20 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-428: Master Disc of Chief
21 Superintendent J. Carson
22 Audio Logger selected tracks,
23 Mobile Unit, Sept '05 to
24 07/95.
25

256

1 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And these, for
2 identification, it would be four, twenty-eight (428) from
3 the Ipperwash Inquiry list of calls, the Master Disk and
4 what I played was Calls number 1 and 2 on that particular
5 list.
6 So that Exhibit 28, calls 1 and 2, which
7 is, in effect, the same call are now in the public
8 domain.
9 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: And Chief Bressette's
10 is number 3.
11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And Chief Bressette's
12 is call 3. It's already been marked as part of Exhibit
13 250. But it would be Call 3 -- Mr. Orkin's right, Call 3
14 is also the one we just played.
15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's already
16 in the public record as Exhibit 250.
17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: But the others -- the
18 others on the disk are not public until we play them in
19 public; does everybody understand?
20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think so.
21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you, sir. We'll
22 see you tomorrow morning at nine o'clock.
23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you
24 very much. Tomorrow morning at 9:00.
25 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is