Cueing Posterior Pelvic Tilt When Squatting and Deadlifting? Have I Gone Mad?

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One of the more popular cues trainers and coaches use when teaching the squat and deadlift is to arch the lower back….hard.

There’s a legitimate reason why, too. Squatting and deadlifting under load (consistently) into lumbar flexion is a major no-no, and usually results in any number of lower back dysfunctions and injuries. All someone has to do is open up either one of Dr. Stuart McGill’s seminal books on the topic – Low Back Disorders or Ultimate Back Fitness and Performance – to be slapped in the face 10x over with research study after research study proving this point.

Cueing someone to avoid (loaded) flexion and to arch their back while squatting and deadlifting engages the muscles of the back – erectors, iliocostalis, longissimus, multifidi – which not only helps to both stabilize and strengthen the spine, but also aids in offsetting and drastically reducing shear force.

It’s a hard to debate this point and has long been accepted as the “correct” way to cue proper form and technique.

However, the fitness industry runs on a perpetual pendulum of extremes – the middle ground is for pansies – and if doing “x” amount of something is good then doing even M.O.R.E of “x” must be really good. Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

Arching the back is fine. Excessively arching the back, long-term, not so much. Just like we would shit an EMG study over excessive spinal flexion, excessive spinal extension is just as deleterious and detrimental to the spine.

In extreme cases:

Repetitive, excessive spinal flexion = disc herniations

Repetitive, excessive spinal extension = end plate, pars fractures.

It’s no coincidence we’ve seen the rise of things like Spondylosis, Spondylolisthesis, and other extension-based dysfunctions in the fitness and athletic realms – in both young and old(er) populations.

In younger populations a large portion of the blame can be pointed to more and more kids being less active, ill-prepared, and/or specializing in one sport too soon (pattern overload).

In older populations the blame can be directed towards some of the same culprits, albeit I’d also argue a major monkey-wrench is how we as coaches and trainers have been cueing our athletes and clients for the better part of a decade (if not longer) into OVER-arching during their squats and deadlifts.

It’s great for lifting a metric shit-load (a shade more than a metric boat-load) of weight, but not so great for long-term back health.

In the video below I break down why cueing more posterior pelvic tilt (in addition to owning your rib position) during squats and deadlifts may be more advantageous in the long run. Remember: All we’re trying to do is encourage people back to “neutral,” from an excessive extension pattern, and to own that position during their lift(s). So, instead of thinking of it as “arch and sit back,” it should be “find neutral, set/own ribs,bace, and sit down.” I think this not only has merit with regards to back health, but performance as well. Give it a looksy.

Cueing Posterior Pelvic Tilt During the Squat and Deadlift

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Comments for This Entry

PJ Striet

Very timely blog Tony. I've been working with my good friend, Dr. Jason Placeway, a chiropractor here in Cincinnati, on my squat. After numerous back blowouts, SI joint pain, etc., I showed him a video of me squatting and he basically told me I needed to start over. He said, to the casual eye, my squat looked perfect, but he said the reality was it was a disaster.
We reduced my training loads GREATLY and started from scratch. For the first few training sessions, it was extremely awkward. Thinking about dropping straight down, getting my rib cage down (and consequently PPT'ing) was just bizarre. I was so used to initiating the squat by pushing my hips back and going into APT. I was going from APT, then into gradual flexion as I descended, back into neutral or a little APT. No wonder my back was telling me to F off.
It was a lot to think about: chin tucked and looking 45 degrees down into the floor, rib cage down, dropping straight down. Every rep felt like quantum physics. However, after about 4 weeks, I got it down. No back pain. No fear of descending with anything over 225. My weights are almost back to my strongest ever. I still tuck under a bit at the very bottom, but I've avoiding that end range which was giving me so many problems before because I'm starting in PPT.
It's so funny to think about how I was initially taught to squat: spread the chest, cervical extension (look towards the sky), hips back, big arch, etc. I'm lucky that, despite being a fitness pro for 15 years and training myself for over 20, that I was humble enough to admit I couldn't even squat right. No matter how much you think you know, you can never stop learning...even learning about seemingly basic stuff.
Another thing I've changed is my reps per set. Given the amount of thought which goes into each rep, sets of 3-5 are about my limit. I can't imagine doing something like 4 sets of 8-10. I'd get sloppy and revert to bad habits.
Good stuff.

Zev

Reading this is like deja vu -- you're describing my situation almost exactly. It's humbling, but also kind of exciting, to realize that after 20+ years of training I still have much to learn about form.
The thing that's shocking to me is how weak my abs really are. They look good aesthetically (I compete in bodybuilding), and I've managed to hoist pretty decent weights (e.g., RDL 350 lbs. for multiple sets of 10), but I'm learning now (after suffering from lots of lower-back issues) that I've only been able to do so because of overreliance on APT and my lower back musculature. When I assume a more neutral lower-back position and brace my core properly (i.e., using all my core muscles rather than just the muscles that lock me into APT), I have to drop my RDL weights by 70 pounds or more. I'm curious to see whether I'm able build my strength back up to where it was when I was using bad technique.

PJ Striet

Zev,
At least in my case, my weights have climbed back up. Not quite to my best ever but close. And honestly, if this keeps me healthy, I'm fine with a drop in (artificial) strength. I'm glad you have had a good experience.

Thanks for sharing PJ. I think I'm in the same place. I've always been told that a hard arch was the safe way to squat. But it makes complete sense that excessive APT is just as dangerous as excessive PPT. I can already imagine how weird it's going to feel doing exactly what you described - locking the neutral position and dropping straight down, rather than arching and popping the hips back. I think I'm about to find out just how weak my "ripped" core really is. And I hear you on the reps. You nailed it.

Thanks for sharing PJ. I think I'm in the same place. I've always been told that a hard arch was the safe way to squat. But it makes complete sense that excessive APT is just as dangerous as excessive PPT. I can already imagine how weird it's going to feel doing exactly what you described - locking the neutral position and dropping straight down, rather than arching and popping the hips back. I think I'm about to find out just how weak my "ripped" core really is. And I hear you on the reps. You nailed it.

TonyGentilcore

I've (still) been having SI joint issues as of late too PJ and this is the kind of stuff I've had to adopt and try to master myself. It takes time to de-program ourselves out doing stuff we've always been doing (and thought was the correct way to do them). Buuuuuuuuu, the work now will definitely pay off in the long run.
The biggest culprit for my back is the incessant standing and coaching on hard, black, rubber flooring every day. Sucks.

Scott Gunter

Gary H

This was something I discovered a while back on my own messing around with my own positioning for squat and the deadlift. Correct me if I'm wrong but does setting the rib position down along with a ppt help improve neutral spine during movement?
I've noticed cueing both things have cleaned up a lot of issues with regards to maintaining a better position. Love to hear your thoughts?

TonyGentilcore

Great stuff Tony! We also find a lot of people will breath anteriorly and slip right back into APT rather than getting circumferential expansion.
Not to mention their already in a bit of hip flexion with APT and hitting depth without buttwink is improbable. Optimal position facilitates optimal movement, no?

TonyGentilcore

That's true too!! Especially when wearing a weight belt.....people can't just push air into the stomach (which them pushes them into more extension)......we have to coach people to get their air ALL around.

Wow. Thank you so much for this. So timely for me. For about 8 months I've been having major issues with SI joint pain (left side only) when squatting. I've seen a chiro who did nothing to address the movement pattern, and PTs who prescribe rehabilitation exercises to strengthen glute med. and piriformis. None of this has helped and I've become very discouraged. One look at this video and I know this will tackle my problem. I am definitely using excessive APT. Time to re-learn to squat. THANK YOU!

Wow. Thank you so much for this. So timely for me. For about 8 months I've been having major issues with SI joint pain (left side only) when squatting. I've seen a chiro who did nothing to address the movement pattern, and PTs who prescribe rehabilitation exercises to strengthen glute med. and piriformis. None of this has helped and I've become very discouraged. One look at this video and I know this will tackle my problem. I am definitely using excessive APT. Time to re-learn to squat. THANK YOU!

TonyGentilcore

blackhawk915

Thank you, Tony. This is fantastic stuff, and agrees in a lot of ways with Kelly Starrett's approach to setting up for squatting and deadlifting - i.e. squeeze glutes, lock down ribs, and create torque with the feet.
I've been battling with nerve compression, pain and numbness due to spondylolisthesis of my L5 on S1 for the last year and a half, and a great coach recommended I work on slight posterior pelvic tilt about 6 weeks ago during squats, deadlifts and cleans, and it has helped a lot with the pain.
Every coach needs to know this!

TonyGentilcore

You're supposed to have an arched back. APT is normal. But if it's excessive, I'd recommend hammering anterior core strength with deadbugs and the like. If you do a search on my site for the words "deadbugs" you'll easily find it. I also wrote a blog or two earlier in the ear on extension based back pain. Do a search for that and you should come up with a few hits.

John

Thanks Tony for the response. When you say APT is normal I have a question. If I am doing seated shoulder press (with a back rest); should my back have an arch or should it be flat against the back pad when pressing overhead. That will help me understand if my arched back is normal or needs correction.

TonyGentilcore

I'd say to try to make sure it's flat against the back of the bench. It may come off a little bit - which is fine. In fact, it's normal.
The problem comes when people go too heavy and start really cranking through their lower back to press up.

Stephen Clipp

In his article on ‘Okinawan Strength,’ Stu McGill talked approvingly, but in a roundabout way of Marty Gallagher’s deadlift cues for torso rigidity. I’ve been unable to find these, they’re not in ‘Purposeful Primitive.’ Anyone know where they’re at?

This is it. This is REALLY it. Thanks, @TonyGentilcore:disqus! I have certainly changed my cueing in squat form for this very reason, but I never even considered deadlifting, but the mechanics make sense. In spite of what we're taught as trainers, and even those of us who have gone through higher academics for exercise-science related fields, this is revolutionary, and certainly a game-changer.

TonyGentilcore

Glad it helped Terrell. Remember, though, you have to take it on a case-by-case basis. It's not a UNIVERSAL cue, but one that I feel will help people not only lift a metric shit ton of weight, but keep their spines healthy in the long run.

Guest

Tony,
I discovered this a few months back from various articles on the web. Was good with it for a while then reverted back to my old ways. What I have discovered is knee pain when not done the correct way. I think for me these directly correlate. I do have a cyst on my knee (MRI). It seems like more stress is place upon the knee when in APT. If I got into APT for any functional move my ability to control my descent is weak in my troubled knee. My knee is sore for a while and has some popping. However, when I posteriorly tilt I feel solid. Wondering what you thoughts are on this

TonyGentilcore

APT drives femoral IR, with drives tibial IR, which may play into why your knee hurts when "excessively" going to anterior tilt.
APT isn't bad per se. Just when it's done excessively and over a long period of time.