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you have to understand nobby
the whole POINT of shipping is claming that your ship is better/more canon then the other ships
without that claim or mind frame
you dont, in fact, HAVE a bloody ship
so trying to UNITE the ships, is trying to take out the entire POINT out of shipping

Well, you may have a point. It just seems like such an exercise in futility to me. But then again, if it's an exercise in futility that we can all enjoy......I'm gonna take some time to think this over.

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Originally Posted by incorrupts

What is that supposed to mean? I am not a member of any club anyway, stopped being one a long time ago. {apart from the one i got with twin} And i think i did "contribute" on the club, even if i did not know about that, but whatever, ok.

Nah, you just always disagree with whatever I do Nah, I'm just kidding sky. Really though, I don't know I just had a feeling you wouldn't join because you seem very partial to the idea that Kalulu was more canon....

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You have to pay attention though, in the fact that Kallen and Lelouch got way more after-series material, than what Shirley and Lelouch got. {or C.CxLelouch} Kinda natural, Kallen was one of the main four charas afterall and in R2, her development was mostly towards him.

Well, you may have a point. It just seems like such an exercise in futility to me. But then again, if it's an exercise in futility that we can all enjoy......I'm gonna take some time to think this over.

Nah, you just always disagree with whatever I do Nah, I'm just kidding sky. Really though, I don't know I just had a feeling you wouldn't join because you seem very partial to the idea that Kalulu was more canon....

...and the proof is in the pudding right there.

Well, yes, i do believe that KallenxLelouch and ShirleyxLelouch within the show, are pretty close. The two things that do distinguish them in my eyes, is how Lelouch kept Kallen out of ZR {along with all the materials supporting the question of "why"} and how Lelouch's feelings towards Shirley, were mixed with liking and guilt.
Had Shirley been alive, ShirleyxLelouch might have been shot down or confirmed officially. But, we go with the events in the show, and personally, KallenxLelouch got a LOT, and i mean a whole lot stuff to discuss in R2 {and after}, that do raise more stuff to talk about, compared to the other couples.
And this has nothing to do with preference more/less. I am just stating facts about materials that everyone did read/saw and events, that i believe everyone can recognize as well.

Well, yes, i do believe that KallenxLelouch and ShirleyxLelouch within the show, are pretty close. The two things that do distinguish them in my eyes, is how Lelouch kept Kallen out of ZR {along with all the materials supporting the question of "why"}.

Well this has been beaten quite thoroughly, and if that's your interpretation of the events you're more than welcome to it.

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and how Lelouch's feelings towards Shirley, were mixed with liking and guilt.

And I bet you're sure that Lelouch's feelings toward Kallen weren't mixed with the fact that she was his loyal soldier, the fact that he was lying to her, and that he had to push her away during ZR.

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Had Shirley been alive, ShirleyxLelouch might have been shot down or confirmed officially. But, we go with the events in the show, and personally, KallenxLelouch got a LOT, and i mean a whole lot stuff to discuss in R2 {and after}, that do raise more stuff to talk about, compared to the other couples.
And this has nothing to do with preference more/less. I am just stating facts about materials that everyone did read/saw and events, that i believe everyone can recognize as well.

Well Kallen is a main character, so that certainly does leave her with some more prominence and room for development, so of course there's going to be a lot of focus on her. I'm not saying you're wrong, but considering Shirley's secondary character status I think she did all right for herself.

And I bet you're sure that Lelouch's feelings toward weren't mixed with the fact that she was his his loyal soldier, the fact that he was lying to her, and that he had to push her away during ZR.

Hum, excuse me what? Lelouch did care about Shirley, but only seemed to notice her when she was in danger most of the times. Add to that, that he ruined her life.
With Kallen, it is different. They did develop a relationship in R2 especially, with no lies or anything, since she did know his ID.
I am not saying, that Shirley was just a friend to him, but to me, it seemed that he did like Shirley as a girl and loved her as a friend, while with Kallen, probably loved her in both ways. //and do not bet a lot about me btw

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Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Well Kallen is a main character, so that certainly does leave her with some more prominence and room for development, so of course there's going to be a lot of focus on her. I'm not saying you're wrong, but considering Shirley's secondary character status I think she did all right for herself.

Ah yeah, this is what i said. And i never denied that Shirley's development with Lelouch was quite huge, compared to her secondary-status, it was supposed to be that way anyway.
But, in R2, and add all the materials and stuff, she is {a bit} behind Kallen i believe. Even if you take them statistically, and not about how interpretations are being raised. I mean, see it like this:
Would staff really bomb everyone with "ah, not really-romantic"-stuff about Kallen x Lelouch again and again, if there was not actually something there? Beats the purpose of it.

Hum, excuse me what? Lelouch did care about Shirley, but only seemed to notice her when she was in danger most of the times. Add to that, that he ruined her life.
With Kallen, it is different. They did develop a relationship in R2 especially, with no lies or anything, since she did know his ID.
I am not saying, that Shirley was just a friend to him, but to me, it seemed that he did like Shirley as a girl and loved her as a friend, while with Kallen, probably loved her in both ways. //and do not bet a lot about me btw

Sorry, that's my bad. I mean to say that his feelings for Kallen were mixed with all that other stuff. Anyway, the reason Lelouch didn't "notice" Shirley is because he had been trying to keep her away from him, and I'd say given their studen-to-student relationship she received a good amount of attention anyway.

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Ah yeah, this is what i said. And i never denied that Shirley's development with Lelouch was quite huge, compared to her secondary-status, it was supposed to be that way anyway.
But, in R2, and add all the materials and stuff, she is {a bit} behind Kallen i believe. Even if you take them statistically, and not about how interpretations are being raised. I mean, see it like this:
Would staff really bomb everyone with "ah, not really-romantic"-stuff about Kallen x Lelouch again and again, if there was not actually something there? Beats the purpose of it.

Yes, and I never denied that Kallen had a very strong romantic aspect to her relationship with Lelouch. By the same token I believe Shirley had a strong, pretty much exclusively, romantic relationship with Lelouch. Kallen had her role in the series and so did Shirley, and for the after-series material the creators expand and explain parts of those roles with bits of information, but I don't think it was ever meant to clarify one pairing over the other.

Sorry, that's my bad. I mean to say that his feelings for Kallen were mixed with all that other stuff. Anyway, the reason Lelouch didn't "notice" Shirley is because he had been trying to keep her away from him, and I'd say given their studen-to-student relationship she received a good amount of attention anyway.

He did try to keep her away, but on a general thesis, he never really noticed her, up until she screwed her life. Shirley was important for Lelouch, that was made clear in Stage 14, by his own words. But, by the time Lelouch chose Zero-path, then this couple was pretty much out. The only plausible-"options" were C.C and Kallen. We got our reply about C.C and we got a semi-reply about Kallen. Someone seemed to forget about a certain powerful gumline.

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Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Yes, and I never denied that Kallen had a very strong romantic aspect to her relationship with Lelouch. By the same token I believe Shirley had a strong, pretty much exclusively, romantic relationship with Lelouch. Kallen had her role in the series and so did Shirley, and for the after-series material the creators expand and explain parts of those roles with bits of information, but I don't think it was ever meant to clarify one pairing over the other.

Of course, each chara has his/her role, that is a given. But the --- that Shirley had, was that she was a secondary character, and not being able to be on the BK HQ, something that Kallen could do and she was one of the main charas.
It is, role-delivery. It is not that it is Shirley's fault or anything, lol. Staff had certain roles in mind, simple. Some were meant to be a lot, and some others, were meant to be a lot and something more.

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He did try to keep her away, but on a general thesis, he never really noticed her, up until she screwed her life. Shirley was important for Lelouch, that was made clear in Stage 14, by his own words. But, by the time Lelouch chose Zero-path, then this couple was pretty much out. The only plausible-"options" were C.C and Kallen. We got our reply about C.C and we got a semi-reply about Kallen. Someone seemed to forget about a certain powerful gumline.

Keep in mind at that Lelouch hadn't really noticed any girl in a romantic sense. Sure he was attentive to Kallen and C.C. but only because they were very important to his Zero path. Shirley was actually the first girl, I believe, he truly considered in a romantic sense (well, aside from Euphemia) And if that's how you want to think, that Lelouch's Zero path truly did destroy Shirlulu then you're free to believe it. By the same token I could say that Lelouch's ZR plan destroyed Kalulu.

And about the gumline. They omitted it, and they omitted it for a reason. They certainly wouldn't have left that out if it was vital to the story or her character. How did we come across that anyway?

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Of course, each chara has his/her role, that is a given. But the --- that Shirley had, was that she was a secondary character, and not being able to be on the BK HQ, something that Kallen could do and she was one of the main charas.
It is, role-delivery. It is not that it is Shirley's fault or anything, lol. Staff had certain roles in mind, simple. Some were meant to be a lot, and some others, were meant to be a lot and something more.

*sigh* and maybe that's part of why I'm such a Shirlulu fan I mean, not only was she a secondary character, but she was a tortured and horribly tragic secondary character. I almost always root for the underdog, such is my misfortune.

Now keep in mind, I do like how Lelouch and Shirley's relationship developed and I do believe they could have had something, but I also find it hard to accept that idea that Shirlulu was destined to fail just because she was a secondary character. I don't think the success of a romance or pairing should fail because of something like that.

He did try to keep her away, but on a general thesis, he never really noticed her, up until she screwed her life. Shirley was important for Lelouch, that was made clear in Stage 14, by his own words. But, by the time Lelouch chose Zero-path, then this couple was pretty much out. The only plausible-"options" were C.C and Kallen. We got our reply about C.C and we got a semi-reply about Kallen. Someone seemed to forget about a certain powerful gumline.

Reading that, you could think CG was a Romance anime. xD
I don't see how Lelouch becoming Zero changed anything in that respect. It's not like he needs to have had one true love in the show. There was no happily ever after for him from the start, so as far as I'm concerned, Kallen and C.C. were not any more of a "plausible option" than Shirley was.

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"I think of the disturbance in Area 11 as a chess puzzle, set forth by Lelouch." - Clovis la Britannia

Keep in mind at that Lelouch hadn't really noticed any girl in a romantic sense. Sure he was attentive to Kallen and C.C. but only because they were very important to his Zero path. Shirley was actually the first girl, I believe, he truly considered in a romantic sense (well, aside from Euphemia) And if that's how you want to think, that Lelouch's Zero path truly did destroy Shirlulu then you're free to believe it. By the same token I could say that Lelouch's ZR plan destroyed Kalulu.

And about the gumline. They omitted it, and they omitted it for a reason. They certainly wouldn't have left that out if it was vital to the story or her character. How did we come across that anyway?

*sigh* and maybe that's part of why I'm such a Shirlulu fan Now keep in mind, I do like how Lelouch and Shirley's relationship developed and I do believe they could have had something, but I also find it hard to accept that idea that Shirlulu was destined to fail just because she was a secondary character. I don't think the success of a romance or pairing should fail because of something like that. I mean, not only was she a secondary character, but she was a tortured and horribly tragic secondary character. I almost always root for the underdog, such is my misfortune.

- It was supposed to be tragic. By the time, her father died cause of Lelouch's fault pretty much, it was supposed to be like this. And we all see, how this all ended up.

- Incorrect. It was Kallen's most important line, how could it not be vital to the story? All the other lines, were featured, so having this one missing out, is fishy. Look for other reasons, other than "not being important" because, the fact, that it was her most important line, tied to Lelouch {safe to say, since everyone's else was towards him mostly} and in the last turn/s, is important. //we were talking about secondary stuff, i just mentioned it, no one forbids me, no?

- I do believe, that Zero path, "ruined" Shirlulu. Obviously Lelouch believed that too, this is why he wanted to keep her away. We did see though, that when Lelouch and Shirley interacted in school, they had this romantic-sparkly-vibe {Turn 12} So yes, ultimately, the way i see the events, is that Lelouch/Shirley was probably gonna happen, but was finalized when Stage 14 ended.

Actually, I think the invasion of Japan ruined Lelouch's love life as a whole. And him being sent there in the first place.
Because just like some people might have felt Shirlulu wouldn't happen after the Mao incident, I felt no pairing at all would happen right from the very start (or, well, as soon as I had gotten a fair impression of the kind of person Lelouch was).
Not that I even stopped to think much about that. I just never even considered Lelouch falling madly in love and "getting together" with someone - I always expected that there would be no clear outcome, and that's exactly what happened.
I also agree with Nobodyman. If the Zero thing ruined Shirlulu, then ZR ruined Kalulu. But... in the end, it all comes back to Lelouch's messed up childhood if we follow that line.

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"I think of the disturbance in Area 11 as a chess puzzle, set forth by Lelouch." - Clovis la Britannia

And i never denied that. It ruined it, exactly the way it put it on the pedestal of semi-canon. From Kallen's POV too.

Then I don't see how Shirlulu has to be any less "canon".
Sure, there is the side material. But I never thought it was necessary in Shirley's case - the anime said it all. The staff couldn't have added anything except of putting an "I know he loved me!" into the poem and that just... wouldn't have fit in Shirley's case. At all.
She had other things on her mind when they "parted". Also, it would have ruined the tragedy somewhat. I mean... it just wouldn't have fit there.
But maybe that's just me. xD

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"I think of the disturbance in Area 11 as a chess puzzle, set forth by Lelouch." - Clovis la Britannia

Then I don't see how Shirlulu has to be any less "canon".
Sure, there is the side material. But I never thought it was necessary in Shirley's case - the anime said it all. The staff couldn't have added anything except of putting an "I know he loved me!" into the poem and that just... wouldn't have fit in Shirley's case. At all.
She had other things on her mind when they "parted". Also, it would have ruined the tragedy somewhat. I mean... it just wouldn't have fit there.
But maybe that's just me. xD

Why do people always refer to Kallen's poem only? It is not just that. It is Lelouch's personal line about her, it is the mutual-kiss staff line, there are things that do show that Lelouch >>> Kallen, not only Kallen >>> Lelouch. And again, the gumline, the bane of existence for all KallenxLelouch fans. It was cut because it would probably cause an uproar, since it had the "love" word.
Please, there is not way that someone can say "not important" when the staff itself said, that these lines are the most important for the characters.

- Incorrect. It was Kallen's most important line, how could it not be vital to the story? All the other lines, were featured, so having this one missing out, is fishy. Look for other reasons, other than "not being important" because, the fact, that it was her most important line, tied to Lelouch {safe to say, since everyone's else was towards him mostly} and in the last turn/s, is important. //we were talking about secondary stuff, i just mentioned it, no one forbids me, no?

I don't know what you're talking about it. If it was SO important they would have left it in, but for whatever reason they didn't. Yes, it COULD have been vital to the story. It COULD have been a good romantic plot point for Lelouch/Kallen. But it didn't happen. It didn't happen just like a lot of the original script that didn't make it into R2 due to the time slot change (I'm not saying the gumline was omitted due to the time slot change, I'm just saying it's a similar situation)

Hmm, actually having thought about it from your POV, I can see how you would submit this as possible evidence. So yes, maybe this indicates that, in the authors' minds, maybe they were thinking about doing something with Lelouch/Kallen, but I guess we'll never know for sure since it was never made and we don't know the context in which it would have been used.

Why do people always refer to Kallen's poem only? It is not just that. It is Lelouch's personal line about her, it is the mutual-kiss staff line, there are things that do show that Lelouch >>> Kallen, not only Kallen >>> Lelouch. And again, the gumline, the bane of existence for all KallenxLelouch fans. It was cut because it would probably cause an uproar, since it had the "love" word.
Please, there is not way that someone can say "not important" when the staff itself said, that these lines are the most important for the characters.

The gumline was something Kallen would have said, not Lelouch, if I understood it correctly. So I don't know how it should have changed anything - we know Kallen's love for Lelouch was incredibly important to her character.
And I don't buy this whole "the staff didn't do this and that because the other shippers would have lynched them" stuff. They liked playing with the almost-but-not-quite romance, and they wouldn't have shot down't Cluclu if that's what they're so worried about.
Yes, the mutual kiss is there. But it just doesn't make Shirlulu any less "canon".

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"I think of the disturbance in Area 11 as a chess puzzle, set forth by Lelouch." - Clovis la Britannia

I don't know what you're talking about it. If it was SO important they would have left it in, but for whatever reason they didn't. Yes, it COULD have been vital to the story. It COULD have been a good romantic plot point for Lelouch/Kallen. But it didn't happen. It didn't happen just like a lot of the original script that didn't make it into R2 due to the time slot change (I'm not saying the gumline was omitted due to the time slot change, I'm just saying it's a similar situation)

Hmm, actually having thought about it from your POV, I can see how you would submit this as possible evidence. So yes, maybe this indicates that, in the authors' minds, maybe they were thinking about doing something with Lelouch/Kallen, but I guess we'll never know for sure since it was never made and we don't know the context in which it would have been used.

I more or less agree with the other stuff you said.

Except that Lelouch's line in the extended preview of Turn 23, about Suzaku and Kallen being two of his pillars, made me think, that yes, this gumline would probably settle the canon deal between KallenxLelouch. It would not be out from ufo-sky somewhere, there are things prior to the last turns, that do show, mutual connection between Lelouch and Kallen.
And that line of Lelouch there, in the extended previews, which were the closest to his own truth, made me think that yes, Kallen is way more important to him than a friend.

Except that Lelouch's line in the extended preview of Turn 23, about Suzaku and Kallen being two of his pillars, made me think, that yes, this gumline would probably settle the canon deal between KallenxLelouch. It would not be out from ufo-sky somewhere, there are things prior to the last turns, that do show, mutual connection between Lelouch and Kallen.
And that line of Lelouch there, in the extended previews, which were the closest to his own truth, made me think that yes, Kallen is way more important to him than a friend.

Oh, so now we're bringing in the pillars of existance thing? That's a whole other can of worms right there. And I don't see how those two events correlate with each other. What you've just stated is nothing more than your own personal interpretations/opinions anyway.

all we know is that kallen's most importent line was removed for SOME reason
we dont know WHY it was removed, but we know that it was her MOST IMPORTENT LINE
and i think removing it DID damage the plot quite a bit, at least that part of it that concerend kallen

personally i think that kallen's character was handled rather poorly during the entire last arc in general
we got more insight into shnizel, ougi and even GINO's mind set during that arc then we did about kallen's
would it have killed them to axe that whole retarded kallen gino talk in ep 23 and give KALLEN a few seconds to say something that better explains her motives for fighting against lelouch
the fact that they DIDNT stress out her reasons, and the fact that she turned against lelouch right after he seemed to reject her, made her come off as a bitchy woman scorned more then anything else
which in turn contributed to much of the hate that rose against her during the last arc, when in effect that was nothing wrong about her actions what so ever

Oh, so now we're bringing in the pillars of existance thing? That's a whole other can of worms right there. And I don't see how those two events correlate with each other. What you've just stated is nothing more than your own personal interpretations/opinions anyway.

Well, I better skedaddle. I don't want this to get too messy.

What? Excuse me? Lelouch stated that on his own, how is it my interpretation?
Lelouch refers frequently in Kallen, in the R2 previews, that is something that is not up for question. It is canon fact.
And i did mention it, to show that a lot of things coming from Lelouch towards Kallen, it is not only "her being all over him."

Oh, so now we're bringing in the pillars of existance thing? That's a whole other can of worms right there. And I don't see how those two events correlate with each other. What you've just stated is nothing more than your own personal interpretations/opinions anyway.

Well, I better skedaddle. I don't want this to get too messy.

I agree with the first part, and I can understand the second.
The "pillars of existence thing" has been discussed so many times now that I won't even bother anymore. I have heard many interpretations, some awesome, some understandable and some quite strange. In the end, I go with what the staff deigned to put in the anime, what they added to underline some things and what they never said for some reason or another.
In the end, I end up with what might actually be my favourite pairing: The ambiguous.
It's so much fun to use in fanwork.

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"I think of the disturbance in Area 11 as a chess puzzle, set forth by Lelouch." - Clovis la Britannia