Tohei writes about "ki" and it's well known. But, I'm beginning to find that he didn't have the market cornered on "structure", "ki", or "aiki" as it relates to aikido. Shioda, in his own way, seems to have given everyone as much direction on gaining these skills as Tohei. The difference is that Tohei created a separate system for "ki development" while Shioda kept it within his teachings. I'll go through three key concepts that Shioda emphasized and point to where I see them overlap with core body skills/aiki/whatever you want to call it.

A: Chushin Ryoku.

Most translations give this phrase as "center power". I think I like Steven Miranda's definition better. He writes it as "The power of the center line. Keep your center line straight."

Ki as it is manifested in the performance of techniques is what we have when the components of correct posture, center line, breathing, the explosive power of focused energy, timing, etc., come together so that we reach the highest state of perfect balance. It might be said that "ki" is the "the mastery of balance.

You can talk to quite a few people who are training these body skills and you'll be told that having a "correct" posture is sometimes critical. The body's centerline is very important. But, Miss Manner's Guide to Proper Etiquette and Posture isn't relevant at all. The former has specific training methods while the latter is societal hogwash. :) Anyway, the centerline as divided by the spine is an important concept. This actually will help the body deliver power from the ground through the hara. I have seen, and done, training from Dan, Mike, and Rob in regards to keeping proper alignment/posture. And I've found, even as a beginner, that it makes a world of difference when done correctly.

As Steven Miranda wrote, one must keep the center line straight. When doing any movement, the spine must be kept aligned straight between the feet. The upper body should not sway the spine, twist the spine, or turn the spine from *outside* that alignment. (Okay, I'm sure there are exceptions and such. But, in regards to my training and my experiences, I'm going from a beginner's perspective.) Doesn't mean you can't twist and turn -- just don't do it such that the spine is contorted out of that correct posture/alignment. If I had to describe chushin ryoku, I'd probably say it is the power derived from correct spinal alignment. That seems better than just center power.

But, that really doesn't explain a whole lot. But, other places define this as concentration of all one's power at one point or at one instant. Not really a big help either. At least until other factors are included. Something I think hinders development of aikido is that there is no more frames of reference for most of us. In other words, all the giants are gone and no one can now gain direct physical experience of just how these people felt in their application of aikido. That direct hands-on experience could have provided a very important frame of reference for training. So, we have to make do with what we have now. And for shuchu ryoku, I find that Mike Sigman has a concept that fits very well. Mike talks about bringing the ground out to any point on one's body. So, for instance, if uke grabs katate dori, then the ground should be in the wrist at the point of contact. Although I don't believe that Mike's concept covers all of shuchu ryoku, for us beginner's, I think it is a very good start. There are concepts of bringing power from the ground through the point of contact and into uke. I think this, too, is part and parcel of shuchu ryoku.

Given that intent is a very important training concept in structure/core body skills/aiki, then this phrase seems to make more sense. Because as some of us have experienced, when our energy of intent is working correctly, we can stand pushes to the chest, connections to uke's center happen automatically, "techniques" become "effortless", etc.

C: Kokyu Ryoku

"Breath power". Not going to go into this one. I can begin to understand the first two and how my training relates to the concepts. But, I think, that this one is a step or two beyond my current level. I think having a structured body with correct spinal alignment and being able to bring the ground to any point with energy of intent is a prerequisite of being able to do kokyu rokyu. I don't think that kokyu rokyu has much to do with most people's understanding of "breath" or "breathing", though. This isn't just meditative breathing, or zen breathing or deep breathing like most people think. This is a way of breathing that helps the body to store energy in the hara so that it can be released explosively. In other words, if you do reverse breathing (sort of like sucking the stomach in as you breath in) and at the same time, your intent is bringing the perineum upwards, you will get a sort of compressed hara. Once you have that compression, it's like having static energy. Then, you release, or convert that static, compressed energy downward into the ground through the front leg. Doing this while attached to some point with an uke allows all that kinetic energy to transfer to uke as power. Anyway, that's a beginner's view of it. I could be wrong. :)

More research/readings:

Tomoo Yawata wrote a reply (about middle of the page) to Ellis Amdur's article on Aikiweb and I think it provides some very relevant information in regards to Shioda and his training. You can read the reply here:http://www.aikidojournal.com/?id=1045

I'll repost part of it:

Quote:

Tomoo Yawata wrote:

First I will tackle a problem which plagued me from the beginning of Aikido. Why on earth are we using the word "Kokyu-ryoku(breath power)" without getting instructed how to breath properly ?
On July 29th , I've asked in E-Budo forum creating a new thread which title was ‘about the origin of the word "Kokyuryoku"'.
My question was
"They are several "Key words" in aikido. For example "Kokyuryoku", "Aiki" and since I am a practitioner in Yoshinkan Aikido, I think also "Hiriki"(elbow power).
Does anyone has any clues when these words were introduced to aikido?
I know that there are many discussions about the word "Aiki" recently, I think this would shed some important lights about the relation between DTR and aikido but I am interested when O-sensei began to use the word "Kokyuryoku" in his career.
Having some experience in DTR, I thought always that this word is somewhat original to O-sensei. I had always the impression(maybe I am wrong) that Shioda sensei maybe felt some difficulties with this word, as he tried to explain aspects of "Kokyuryoku" in other words, like "chushinryoku(central power)" and so on."
I was asking the right question ,and all the discussion here and on Aiki-web, Mr.Amdur's thesis, Mike's guess all were a hints for the answer but I couldn't recognize it.
In Yoshinkan there are six basic movements (Kihon-dosa), which are important characteristics and distinctive points of Yoshinkan to other Aikido schools.In fact Takeno sensei, one of the top student of Shioda sensei, said to us in a demonstration that the 6basic movements are the hearts and soul ,the crown and jewel of Yoshinkan Aikido and we should be proud to have this. The purpose of this six movements are written in all Yoshinkan text books as follows,that the aim of these movements are to enhance "KOKYU-RYOKU(BREATH POWER). Kancho sensei and Inoue sensei have stated for various occasions that the origins of these movements were all from training methods from the Kobukan dojo era.
I had a rare occasion to train with an former uchideshi of Yoshinkan who left Yoshinkan in 1960, and continued to teach on his own. The six basic movements were a bit different from today but the interesting thing was that the old movements were all identical with the basics in Iwama-ryu (morote-dori kokyuho, and so on).
Now the six basic movements of Yoshinkan are Hiriki no yosei 1,2 (enhancement of elbow power ,1 is for the "omote", and 2 is for the"ura" in other aikido schools), Tai no Henko 1,2 (step and change of the body,…maybe), Shumatsu-dosa (finishing movements).Well, a beginner will mostly first bother what the meaning of the name of movements and waza's, so I became curious why we do a movement called "Shumatsu-dosa(finishing movement)" with the other basic movements rather at the beginning of our classes, so I asked my instructor. "Back when Kancho sensei was training under Ueshiba sensei at the Kobukan dojo, this movement was done at the end of a training session as a relaxation method. But Kancho sensei found out that this movement has more training value as only a relaxation method and included to the basic movements".Tai no Henko needs no explanation. The name and movement accorded. Not to difficult to found out about the meaning even for a beginner.The next the most important movement in the basics.Hiriki no Yosei(Elbow power). At first, I couldn't even understand the word itself in Japanese but anyway it's meaning was elbow power. Why elbow power, it seems quite absurd to assume that the elbow contained some power. I've asked my instructor about that. "The elbow itself has no power, it means THAT YOU HAVE TO GATHER THE WHOLE POWER OF YOUR BODY UP TO THE FRONT OF ELBOW" That's in other word gather the whole power to the hand, isn't it? "No, if I instruct you to gather the power to the hand you will tense the fingers but that will stop the flow of the power." What is the relation between elbow power and Kokyu power? "Elbow power is an old word which derives from sword art. BUT O'SENSEI LATER CHANGED THE WORD FOR THIS POWER TO KOKYU-RYOKU"
Now after that I searched a bit about "Hiriki" and it was in fact once used quite common in sword art(although it seems to be not widely used today), today it is still commonly used in bow art. No wonder, how to use the elbow would be crucial for bow arts. Hiriki would be rather better understood not as a kind of power but it rather refers to how to use the elbow. Now someone who has the experience of suburi or to cut with the sword or to hit for example the tree with the bokken,would acknowledge that in transmitting power, the use of the elbow would be crucial to transmit the gathered power of the hole body movement, in other word you focus the power with the use of the elbow and transmit it to a point of the sword where you hit, cut the sword.
The basic standing posture (Kamae) in Yoshinkan is the equivalent of Seigan no Kamae of kenjutsu and kendo, without a sword.Now every Yoshikan practitioner knows that from the basic standing posture to Kihondosa to all the basic techniques, that it is designed to enhance this power( power from the ground which you transmit through your body to the sword, good maneuvering of the sword means also how to control this power).This power seems to be first called "elbow power" during the Kobukan era after that renamed by Oosensei to "Kokyu power".
OR DID O'SENSEI MEANT ANOTHER POWER?
So we in Yoshinkan do all the basic movements, waza to enhance this power which derived from sword movements and what we call now "Kokyu power"…..WITHOUT GETTING ANY INSTRUCTION HOW TO BREEZE!!!! That is STRANGE!!!
Such questions come of course in mind to every practitioner. I've asked several shihan what would be the best method to breath, after all we are trying to enhance Kokyu power. The answer was always the same, breezing follows natural movement, we should not engage in an unnatural breezing method and damage our natural body movement.I suspected for a while that Kancho sensei was hiding some breathing methods as secret ,but after hearing his explanation or reading it ,I've felt that Kancho sensei seems to have felt also some difficulties with this word so he tried to explain it in other term"Chushin-ryoku(Central power build by the formation of a strong central axis), "Shuchu-ryoku(Concentrational power or concentrated power through the central axis),and so on.And we were proud of it.In Yoshinkan everything was explained down to earth. I thought for a long time that what I've saw in the demonstration of Kancho sensei, his explosive sharp power with the very high level "Aiki" technique, which amazed some Daito-ryu masters, that combined must be something what Ueshiba sensei was calling "Kokyu-ryoku". Now I see things different. That was an internal power derived from the sword school PLUS "Aiki" skills.
I have never heard other aikido schools which used the term "Hiriki", so that was also what I wanted to discuss in this thread but I've found a Daito-ryu school that used the term, that was Sagawa dojo.
Now I think that there is a possibility that during the Kobukan era the terminology of Ueshiba's arts was in transition from a Daito-ryu based terminology to a another terminology using "Kokyu" and "Ki". Maybe "Aiki" in the term of Daito-ryu came also in disuse during this period. Anyway, there was something going on.
No Japanese martial art before aikido used the word Kokyu-ryoku to express its power, No Japanese martial art used the word "KI" as a kind of energy flowing inside the body. IT WAS AIKIDO AND UESHIBA MORIHEI who used it for the first time.The use of "ki" was common in sword schools but it was always as intention (Go no sen, Sen no sen etc.). There are no koryu schools as far as I know that used breath methods to create their martial power. As Mr.Valadez theory of culture influences suggest all this knowledge of Ki and Kokyu was known but not USED as some method in the martial arts.

guest945984

04-24-2008 01:30 AM

Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Quote:

There are no koryu schools as far as I know that used breath methods to create their martial power.

From watching Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage Ryu, a koryu style of kenjutsu that Takeda Sokaku practiced, in that style at least, breathing methods feature quite prominently in their introductory kata, and at least to an outside eye, seem part an parcel of their approach to power generation.

Chris Covington could add more, I imagine.

--

Mark

Ron Tisdale

04-24-2008 08:44 AM

Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Excellent topic, and timely, at that. I'm going to reread it again (especially Tomoo's posts) and comment later.

Best,
Ron

MM

04-24-2008 09:00 AM

Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Quote:

Mark Raugas wrote:
(Post 204331)

From watching Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage Ryu, a koryu style of kenjutsu that Takeda Sokaku practiced, in that style at least, breathing methods feature quite prominently in their introductory kata, and at least to an outside eye, seem part an parcel of their approach to power generation.

Chris Covington could add more, I imagine.

--

Mark

Hello Mark,
Yeah, I'm not at all sure about the koryu part. My guess is that there are some with "breathing" methods. But, for my interest in this topic, I was only concerned with Shioda's teaching and how it coincided with structure/aiki/whatever.

Thanks,
Mark

MM

04-24-2008 09:12 AM

Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Quote:

Ron Tisdale wrote:
(Post 204351)

Excellent topic, and timely, at that. I'm going to reread it again (especially Tomoo's posts) and comment later.

Best,
Ron

It's amazing what a reread will do. :) Shioda, in his own way, I think, tried to get this stuff out there. Or at least explain it somewhat. As usual, the translation needed to be critically written, but without some knowledge of the subject (aiki), a translator would have a very hard time. I think if we're going to explore the possibilities that the Aikido giants did try to get this theory of aiki across, then we will have to undergo another version of translation -- this time with these core body skills in mind.

Quote:

Tomoo wrote:

six basic movements of Yoshinkan are Hiriki no yosei 1,2 (enhancement of elbow power ,1 is for the "omote", and 2 is for the"ura" in other aikido schools), Tai no Henko 1,2 (step and change of the body,…maybe), Shumatsu-dosa (finishing movements).

Just what was being trained in these six? Tai no Henko is another name for sayo undo. And as we learned at Mike's workshop, there's a world of training in that one exercise. And it was interesting to read that Shumatsu-dosa was done as a relaxation method at the end of training with Ueshiba?

I don't think the problem is in finding information. I think the problem is sifting through the large piles of information out there and putting the pieces together. :)

Mark

Mike Sigman

04-24-2008 10:58 AM

Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Quote:

Shioda wrote:
Ki as it is manifested in the performance of techniques is what we have when the components of correct posture, center line, breathing, the explosive power of focused energy, timing, etc., come together so that we reach the highest state of perfect balance. It might be said that "ki" is the "the mastery of balance.

Just to throw in my 2 cents and opinions. I don't trust the Shioda books as being truly, accurately representative of Shioda's thoughts. His books were, as I understand it, compiled by his students using their notes and remembrances and their takes on what they thought he said. If that's true, that would explain to me why Shioda's physical performances appeared to be on one level of movement/skills and why the books are so murky and full of people moving like robots (just a joke, folks).

Tohei's approach to ki/kokyu power is pretty good and logical, although I don't think he's as clear/explicative as he should be if he's going to start a whole style based on "ki". Shioda's use of those same basic skills shows a variation that is more practically aimed at the kokyu and aiki development side. They're just facets of the same basic jewel.

I haven't seen as much Yoshinkan as I've seen Ki-Society, but it would be interesting to watch the Yosh guys get a little less rigid and a little more ki. ;)

Best.

Mike

gdandscompserv

04-24-2008 11:50 AM

Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Quote:

Mark Murray wrote:
(Post 204228)

When doing any movement, the spine must be kept aligned straight between the feet. The upper body should not sway the spine, twist the spine, or turn the spine from *outside* that alignment. (Okay, I'm sure there are exceptions and such. But, in regards to my training and my experiences, I'm going from a beginner's perspective.) Doesn't mean you can't twist and turn -- just don't do it such that the spine is contorted out of that correct posture/alignment. If I had to describe chushin ryoku, I'd probably say it is the power derived from correct spinal alignment. That seems better than just center power.

What happen to this thread? It vapourised and conveniently forgotten:confused:

Rabih Shanshiry

04-29-2010 12:44 PM

Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

I recently came across this clip of a prominent Yoshinkan Shihan (Ando Sensei) demonstrating one of the six basic movements that are core to the Yoshinkan training method. I was wondering if there are any internal skills being displayed here or not:

Some folks seem sure that Shioda wrote his books.. but since it is internet post vs internet post, I still wonder.

Regarding terminology and concepts and different aikido styles.. this book, from Ikeda students, seems to refer to Chushin ryoku from a non-yoshinkan source (I'm talking about the title and kanji on cover).

Mark M, it would be interesting to hear how your outlook may have changed in the time since you started this thread. Still think A and B are a prereq for C? I'm starting to wonder if it is the other way around sometimes. Probably they all depend on each other rather than being true prereqs.

AllanF

04-30-2010 12:48 AM

Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Interesting read. Mark M I would also be interested in knowing how your perspective has changed or not as the case maybe since your original post. Elbow power is also something that is used in ICMA. As for the elbow having no power as in the article i would have to say that i find the opposite is true, it is an easy place to concentrate power.

AllanF

04-30-2010 01:17 AM

Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

It must be noted of course that the shoulder must be relaxed and dropped for the elbow power to be effective. And that the shoulder in turn must be connected to the opposite waist.

David Yap

04-30-2010 01:41 AM

Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Quote:

Mike Sigman wrote:
(Post 204376)

...I haven't seen as much Yoshinkan as I've seen Ki-Society, but it would be interesting to watch the Yosh guys get a little less rigid and a little more ki.

I have seen Inoue hanshi and Chida shihan in action without the standard Yoshinkan kamae. Static in shizendai (natural posture), they could throw the uke effortlessly with a flip of the hand. They could have been easily mistaken for being Aikikai shihans.

David Y

Ron Tisdale

04-30-2010 07:15 AM

Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Agreed David.

Best,
Ron

MM

04-30-2010 07:18 AM

Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Quote:

Jonathan Wong wrote:
(Post 256707)

Mark M, it would be interesting to hear how your outlook may have changed in the time since you started this thread. Still think A and B are a prereq for C? I'm starting to wonder if it is the other way around sometimes. Probably they all depend on each other rather than being true prereqs.

Quote:

Allan Featherstone wrote:
(Post 256710)

Interesting read. Mark M I would also be interested in knowing how your perspective has changed or not as the case maybe since your original post. Elbow power is also something that is used in ICMA. As for the elbow having no power as in the article i would have to say that i find the opposite is true, it is an easy place to concentrate power.

Hello,

I'll start with a quick answer. Are A and B prereqs to C? Considering that to have A and B, one must have a structured body, then yes. What good is breath power if the body's structure has slack, can't properly receive energy, and can't deliver power through A or B? If you can't physically keep a structured body to deliver center line power, how are you going to do that with breath?

As for Chushin-ryoku and Shuchu-ryoku ...

Quote:

Tomoo Yawata wrote:

"Chushin-ryoku(Central power build by the formation of a strong central axis), "Shuchu-ryoku(Concentrational power or concentrated power through the central axis)

So, Chushin-ryoku is concerned with a central axis (spine) and power somehow generated from or around that.

Seems someone else mentioned "central axis" with regards to internal training. Note, though, that there is an added "pivoting" to it.

Quote:

Dan Harden wrote:
(Post 236980)

You got the points of working on intent; paired and solo. Initial opposing force; up/down/ in /out. Central axis pivoting, and winding, then felt its use in spiraling and support.
Cheers
Dan

Then, we find that Hisa also noted about training in a central axis pivot while walking. Dan coined the term, Central Pivot, to define some of this action. The upper body (from shoulders all the way down to the "V" of the crotch) rotating freely around the spine while the hips are kept forward.

Quote:

Dan Harden wrote:
(Post 229064)

Hisa who trained with Takeda and Ueshiba
"I practiced all the time, even walking through the crowded street learning to turn the shoulders"
Hint-he was learning to keep the hips aligned and pivoting from the waist while maintaining an upper / lower body connection (something which involves a central pivot, which I have never seen done well in any modern aikidoka I know)

Cheers
Dan

And then, we come to a great example of how to imagine the power that can be derived from this kind of training ...

Quote:

Dan Harden wrote:
(Post 210082)

An explanation I gave a long time ago
Imagine there is a thick pole in the ground rising vertically, with a peg stuck through it at chest height.
Imagine I told you to hold on to the arms of the peg.
Imagine the pole is a drive shaft stuck into an engine below the floor you couldn't have seen.
Imagine me turning it on
Imagine you in the hospital with two broken arms and a concussion from where you landed on your head.
Imagine me asking you to do it again
Imagine the peg now has two arms welded to it with boxing gloves.
Imagine the drive shaft through the floor is now a 300 horsepower washing machine agitator
Imagine me turning it on
Imagine you in the hospital with a broken -everything.
Since the agitator destroyed your bones with power, do you think it lost its balance and had to take Ukemi? Do you think it lost a degree of force delivery and bounced back?

People are usually a "mess in motion," loose sacks of grain that in various ways bleed out energy all over the place. With so much slack, or worse so much tension in movement that they loose or dissipate the greater portion of their power before it is delivered.

Now
Imagine a door with a pivot in the middle
If you push on the left you get slammed from the right as you fell into the negative "hole" from the door freely spinning.
Imagine pushing very hard and fast.
Imagine getting out of the hospital and me asking you to do it again
This time the door has a big silver ball bearing in the middle supported at a 45 degree angle off the floor from the back
Imagine pushing on any part of the freewheeling door and getting slammed from the others corner or side.

Imagine getting out of the hospital and me asking you to do it again
Now
Imagine the door...with a free will and mind of its own, vectoring and moving with you and coming after you.

The only thing left to do is ask whether or not you know someone who knows a way to make your body capable of absorbing and delivering power in that manner.

Everything up to this point is pretty much covering Chushin-ryoku. Something that takes a lot of training to build within the body.

I've been dedicated to Internal Training for 2.5 years out of a total of 3 (I tried to blend "regular" aikido training and internal training for 1/2 year -- it didn't work for me) and I still have major trouble with Chushin-ryoku.

So, keeping all the above in mind, especially the last example given by Dan about the power generated by this principle and then read the below quote.

If the whole body is integrated as it moves, its power will be the power of the focused center line concentrated into one point. To put it another way, shuchu-ryoku is chushin-ryoku at its extreme.

Imagine the power of Chushin-ryoku focused and concentrated into one point -- say an atemi. :) Very, very powerful.

AllanF

04-30-2010 10:46 PM

Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Great post Mark much appreciated. I'll have to reread my copy of Total aikido.

Hong Junsheng also states as much in his book on Chen taiji. (I believe you have a copy of the English version) I like and agree with the examples given by Dan though i also feel that rather than a single pivot there is actual a second one so that the body can respond vertically as well. I mean that the body becomes a ball so that if you push down you are hit from above if you push up you are hit from below etc.

DH

05-01-2010 10:28 AM

Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Central pivot is just part of "first step" model allowing people to identify and retrain their bodies. I expand on that with exercises to free up the waist from the hips. These are part of a series of martial movement rewiring drills that we do along side of IP training. As the mind / body connection grows, it leads to more advanced training later on. When the internal and external match and move together it becomes a very potent mix.
As far as pivoting goes; producing dual supported spiral paths through your center makes any idea of pivoting axiomatic. They exist everywhere, instantly and reverse at will.
Dan

Michael Varin

05-01-2010 12:46 PM

Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Oh, no. . .

Not the "Driveshaft" post again. ;)

Lorel Latorilla

05-01-2010 03:59 PM

Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Quote:

Michael Varin wrote:
(Post 256837)

Oh, no. . .

Not the "Driveshaft" post again. ;)

Michael, what's wrong with the "driveshaft" post?

AllanF

05-01-2010 09:17 PM

Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Quote:

Dan Harden wrote:
(Post 256833)

Central pivot is just part of "first step" model allowing people to identify and retrain their bodies. I expand on that with exercises to free up the waist from the hips. These are part of a series of martial movement rewiring drills that we do along side of IP training. As the mind / body connection grows, it leads to more advanced training later on. When the internal and external match and move together it becomes a very potent mix.
As far as pivoting goes; producing dual supported spiral paths through your center makes any idea of pivoting axiomatic. They exist everywhere, instantly and reverse at will.
Dan

I had thought that's what would happen, i am at the moment trying to "free up the waist from the hips" but thus far having some difficulties, though it is a work in progress. My problem is that my bloody hips keep wanting to move with the waist. Should the hips remain stationary? Or should they have some movement?

I had a thought which may or may not be relate to this topic, in regard to the hara/dan tian (please forgive any wrong use of Japanese terms as i am not 100% how they correspond to the Chinese). I had started a thread at another forum in regard to generating power from this area, in trying to create a loop going down from the front of the chest to the dantian then up the spine and out through the hands.

Central pivot is just part of "first step" model allowing people to identify and retrain their bodies. I expand on that with exercises to free up the waist from the hips. These are part of a series of martial movement rewiring drills that we do along side of IP training. As the mind / body connection grows, it leads to more advanced training later on. When the internal and external match and move together it becomes a very potent mix.
As far as pivoting goes; producing dual supported spiral paths through your center makes any idea of pivoting axiomatic. They exist everywhere, instantly and reverse at will.
Dan

questions. according to chinese IP lore(s), one should keep shoulders and hips aligned when one moves, to free the waist from the hips, wouldn't that put shoulders and hips out of alignment? or am i missing something? or are you saying, at advance level, the shoulders and hips alignment isn't necessary? still sloshing through this IP mud, because i was thinking, if you free the waist from the hips, wouldn't that put a tremendous torque through the lower spine? where lots of your energy spent on lateral stabilization and force neutralization?

dual spirals, one up one down? or somewhere else?

DH

05-04-2010 09:34 AM

Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Quote:

Phi Truong wrote:
(Post 256896)

questions. according to chinese IP lore(s), one should keep shoulders and hips aligned when one moves, to free the waist from the hips, wouldn't that put shoulders and hips out of alignment? or am i missing something? or are you saying, at advance level, the shoulders and hips alignment isn't necessary? still sloshing through this IP mud, because i was thinking, if you free the waist from the hips, wouldn't that put a tremendous torque through the lower spine? where lots of your energy spent on lateral stabilization and force neutralization?

dual spirals, one up one down? or somewhere else?

I've met men with power who move with hips and shoulder aligned, and those who move like I do with movement driven from opposing sides. I think you can guess which ones are more stable. IME, too many people get impressed with various power displays because they don't fully understand real time issues between trying to fight with IP/Aiki, V playtime in the park or dojo. Training I.P. is one thing; what it does to your body, and how you chose to MOVE with it and then to fight with it.......is a study of it's own.

Martial movement is NOT all the same. There are ways to move the body with weapons and without that are seamless and remain cogent, where adopting some other training I have seen would be a mistake.
Cheers
Dan

DH

05-04-2010 10:07 AM

Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Quote:

Allan Featherstone wrote:
(Post 256853)

I had thought that's what would happen, i am at the moment trying to "free up the waist from the hips" but thus far having some difficulties, though it is a work in progress. My problem is that my bloody hips keep wanting to move with the waist. Should the hips remain stationary? Or should they have some movement?

I had a thought which may or may not be relate to this topic, in regard to the hara/dan tian (please forgive any wrong use of Japanese terms as i am not 100% how they correspond to the Chinese). I had started a thread at another forum in regard to generating power from this area, in trying to create a loop going down from the front of the chest to the dantian then up the spine and out through the hands.

Hi Allen
I would say that " freeing the waist form the hips" is loaded comment that in and of itself..can be an entirely external endeavour that may not produce quite the end results you are looking for.
I m writing from my phone while fishing in S. C....more later
Dan

ChrisHein

05-04-2010 11:17 AM

Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

From reading Shioda, he calls what I said was Aiki, Kokyu-ryoku. And what the IP/IS crowd is calling Aiki, Shioda calls Shuchu-ryoku.

Seems that Shioda is saying that both are simply components of Aiki, that both are just parts and neither is the whole enchilada.

phitruong

05-04-2010 01:08 PM

Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Quote:

Dan Harden wrote:
(Post 256949)

and those who move like I do with movement driven from opposing sides. I think you can guess which ones are more stable.
Dan

i have not met those (maybe i have but was blind) so i could not say. i don't know what i don't know which is a lot of not knowing of things unknown. i think i'll remain skeptical until i meet them. not the first time i have my point of view changed. those of you who moved like that please raise you hands so i can take note to run into you sometimes in the future. :)