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Re: Can Salvation be lost?

Lets focus on how Jesus will have patience with someone that could possibly NOT respond to Him, in accordance with the Parable of the Barren Fig Tree.

Why would Jesus take time to work in the life of a person who possibly will not respond and not produce fruit?

Jesus is our intercessor to the Father and I see Him as asking the Father for a short extension of judgement as Abraham for Sodom. If they do bear fruit it was by the grace of God, but if they don't God can do as He wishes. Jesus is only doing that for which He came, to safe those given to Him by His Father. Asking for mercy to not having judgement immediately is part of His mission, for the sake of the elect and non-elect.

Re: Can Salvation be lost?

Originally Posted by Pbminimum

So explain how , or why that Jesus not only loved his enemy Judas, but served him by washing his feet ?

Jesus washed his feet, but He knew that He was not cleansed as the others. He was not regenerated, he was the son of perdition. Do good to your enemies and serve them as Christ set us the example. Still it did not change the election of Judas.

Re: Can Salvation be lost?

Originally Posted by Kalahari

Jesus is our intercessor to the Father and I see Him as asking the Father for a short extension of judgement as Abraham for Sodom. If they do bear fruit it was by the grace of God, but if they don't God can do as He wishes. Jesus is only doing that for which He came, to safe those given to Him by His Father. Asking for mercy to not having judgement immediately is part of His mission, for the sake of the elect and non-elect.

You aren't making sense. If Jesus didn't die for one who is chosen as a non-elect, Jesus can not ask for something that God WILL NOT give (based on your position).

So, back to the premise of my question... Jesus does take time to nurture a barren fruit tree BUT if the tree bears no fruit after the efforts by Jesus, then God can cut it down. So, a non-elect will NEVER bear fruit according to Calvinism/Reformed position which means, to take time or to make an effort to GET a person to bear fruit... what does this show us?

Slug1--out

~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~

~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

Re: Can Salvation be lost?

Originally Posted by Slug1

You aren't making sense. If Jesus didn't die for one who is chosen as a non-elect, Jesus can not ask for something that God WILL NOT give (based on your position).

So, back to the premise of my question... Jesus does take time to nurture a barren fruit tree BUT if the tree bears no fruit after the efforts by Jesus, then God can cut it down. So, a non-elect will NEVER bear fruit according to Calvinism/Reformed position which means, to take time or to make an effort to GET a person to bear fruit... what does this show us?

Let me try to be more clear.

Jesus who came to save and not to judge asked His Father for the sake of all the elect to not bring an end to this age before all of them were saved. As Abraham intercede for the righteous, not the wicked in Sodom so Christ intercede for the elect not the non-elect. It is the same as with the wheat and tares, one does not know who are which so therefore keep both until the time of judgement. The Gospel goes out to all (nurture and compost for all) and if it bear fruit it is according to God's election and grace. If not God can judge it and pull it out and burned it in the fire that never ends. The asking of more time is for the sake of the elect, not the non-elect. We know the number of the elect are fixed and we believe that once this number is reach God the Father who knew who they are will then send His Son back for judgement.

Re: Can Salvation be lost?

Originally Posted by Kalahari

Jesus washed his feet, but He knew that He was not cleansed as the others. He was not regenerated, he was the son of perdition. Do good to your enemies and serve them as Christ set us the example. Still it did not change the election of Judas.

He didn't just " do good " to Judas. Jesus loved Judas. Now how do you reconcile God loving someone He intends to destroy ?

Re: Can Salvation be lost?

Originally Posted by Pbminimum

He didn't just " do good " to Judas. Jesus loved Judas. Now how do you reconcile God loving someone He intends to destroy ?

According to my understanding Jesus did loved him as He loved those in the unrepentant cities, but He left it to the will of His Father. He only came for those His Father gave Him to save. The only one who can destroy is God and He will.

Mat 10:28* And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.*

Re: Can Salvation be lost?

Originally Posted by Kalahari

According to my understanding Jesus did loved him as He loved those in the unrepentant cities, but He left it to the will of His Father. He only came for those His Father gave Him to save. The only one who can destroy is God and He will.

Mat 10:28* And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.*

He loved those in unrepentant cities such as ....... Jerusalem ? His response to their unbelief was looking at them as a mother hen looks at her chicks. He wept over Jerusalem. His love for them was no less than His love for the elect in my opinion ( and I believe scripture supports me ).

And you're right. He did the will of the Father ALWAYS. Because He and the Father were ONE. This means THE FATHER loved those who would perish as well. And not a half hearted love, mind you. But true love that desired to bring them in. But THEY would not. You must see this point, because to deny it would be to deny the words of Christ Himself. So ask yourself " what does this mean ?"

Kalahari, when you start trying to classify God's love for the lost in an attempt to make your doctrine fit with the scriptures, it just doesn't work.

Re: Can Salvation be lost?

Originally Posted by Kalahari

Let me try to be more clear.

Jesus who came to save and not to judge asked His Father for the sake of all the elect to not bring an end to this age before all of them were saved. As Abraham intercede for the righteous, not the wicked in Sodom so Christ intercede for the elect not the non-elect. It is the same as with the wheat and tares, one does not know who are which so therefore keep both until the time of judgement. The Gospel goes out to all (nurture and compost for all) and if it bear fruit it is according to God's election and grace. If not God can judge it and pull it out and burned it in the fire that never ends. The asking of more time is for the sake of the elect, not the non-elect. We know the number of the elect are fixed and we believe that once this number is reach God the Father who knew who they are will then send His Son back for judgement.

Can't agree. All the tree's bearing fruit, according to your position of doctrine would be the elect. An elect CHOSEN. So if Jesus see's a tree not bearing fruit, according to your position, He knows that He did NOT die for that tree. Yet, we find in the parable, He takes time as if He's not sure He died for that tree. We can confirm that in the fact He "requests" of His Father, time to nurture and IF no fruit is produced, THEN His Father can cut it out.

Seem that for you to be honest to your position in doctrine, Jesus would know who He did and Who He did not die for. After all... as God, He picked each tree and thus, would KNOW if the tree He's taking time with, will respond or not.

To be aligned with your chosen doctrine, if Jesus told the Father that the tree will not respond because that tree was not picked... then, I'd have to side with you.

Slug1--out

~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~

~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

Re: Can Salvation be lost?

Originally Posted by Slug1

Can't agree. All the tree's bearing fruit, according to your position of doctrine would be the elect. An elect CHOSEN. So if Jesus see's a tree not bearing fruit, according to your position, He knows that He did NOT die for that tree. Yet, we find in the parable, He takes time as if He's not sure He died for that tree. We can confirm that in the fact He "requests" of His Father, time to nurture and IF no fruit is produced, THEN His Father can cut it out.

Seem that for you to be honest to your position in doctrine, Jesus would know who He did and Who He did not die for. After all... as God, He picked each tree and thus, would KNOW if the tree He's taking time with, will respond or not.

To be aligned with your chosen doctrine, if Jesus told the Father that the tree will not respond because that tree was not picked... then, I'd have to side with you.

I think Jesus died for all, knowing who would respond, and by process of elimination, those who would not respond. But in dying for all he makes a genuine commitment to offer to *all* of mankind the same offer of life, knowing who would accept it, and by elimination, who would not accept it.

Since life is real, and not a facade, real life offers are made with free human choice involved. People are really offered eternal life, even though God knows many will not respond.

Is God a fool in this? Is He foolish to offer eternal life to those He knows will reject it? Of course not! His Son has died for all, so that all men can respond. It is up to human choice to decide who the elect are and who aren't the elect. The fact God knows who they are does not make His offer any less real, or any less an offer to free men. He just knows that the ones who will not take Him up on His offer.

This is really a small matter, in my view. Either God knows who will be saved or not. If it is purely men who decide, with no sense of who will accept and who will reject then God cannot properly anticipate the future. All could be saved next year. Or maybe all will reject His offer of eternal life. Either way, God's prophecies fail. That *can't* be accurate. God *must* know who will accept Him.

Therefore, I believe God began with a certain number. The ones added on were never planned--they are the result of autonomous human living. We may not know how this works out. We may not understand why free moral agents reject an offer like eternal life.

But I think it has to do with who God originally created. The ones created by God's word are naturally drawn to God's word. And since God's word can never fail, neither can His elect fail. They may make very bad choices. But they can never fail to respond to the eternal word of God that created them.

Those who are reproduced among men as a result of autonomous human living are not drawn to God's word. Why would they be? They were never produced out of inspiration of God's word!

The one originally planned by God's word is drawn to fellowship with God. The other dislikes God, because he was not fathered by God's word and is drawn to the source of his being--independence from God.

Re: Can Salvation be lost?

Originally Posted by randyk

I think Jesus died for all, knowing who would respond, and by process of elimination, those who would not respond. But in dying for all he makes a genuine commitment to offer to *all* of mankind the same offer of life, knowing who would accept it, and by elimination, who would not accept it.

If this is what you believe, then obviously you are not a Calvinist, since all non-Calvinists also believe this. The offer is to all, but salvation is only for those who obey the Gospel. And damnation for those who disobey the Gospel (2 Thess 1:8):

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ

Re: Can Salvation be lost?

Originally Posted by Trivalee

What stands out here is that the disciple/believer is required to continuously "bear fruit" until he goes to rest in the Lord. If you agree with this view, the next question then is, what happens if one stops bearing fruit at some point? The popular notion that once one bears fruit and is pruned by God, they will always continue to bear fruit irrespective of whatever they encounter on the journey. This belief is far-fetched and cannot be substantiated, IMO.

The Bible is filled with events, situations, and circumstances, that although seem far-fetched, turn out to be true; the chief among them is the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

According to Jesus, having a good and honest heart guarantees perseverance, and according to Paul, perseverance is a miracle performed by the Holy Spirit in the heart. And Jesus said that what is impossible for man, is not impossible for God.

If God is saving someone, that person will never fail to persevere in the faith.

Re: Can Salvation be lost?

The Bible is filled with events, situations, and circumstances, that although seem far-fetched, turn out to be true; the chief among them is the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

According to Jesus, having a good and honest heart guarantees perseverance, and according to Paul, perseverance is a miracle performed by the Holy Spirit in the heart. And Jesus said that what is impossible for man, is not impossible for God.

If God is saving someone, that person will never fail to persevere in the faith.

A conclusion that can be reached from your post is to say that all the warnings in the Bible about the NEED to endure, are unneeded then.

Slug1--out

~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~

~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

Re: Can Salvation be lost?

Originally Posted by CadyandZoe

How did you come to that conclusion?

Because you say that God will endure His chosen. So that means, as a conclusion, all the warnings in the Bible that we NEED to endure are unneeded. I can be so bold to say, based on your post, I can also conclude that the consequences that go along with the warnings about enduring to the end, are false. False because a chosen of God, IAW your post, can't fail to endure (no need to be warned) and also, will never suffer the consequence for not enduring (false threat).

So are the warnings in the Bible TO endure and the consequences for not enduring, only for non-elect? And if so, HOW does that make any sense either

Slug1--out

~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~

~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

Re: Can Salvation be lost?

Originally Posted by Slug1

Because you say that God will endure His chosen. So that means, as a conclusion, all the warnings in the Bible that we NEED to endure are unneeded. I can be so bold to say, based on your post, I can also conclude that the consequences that go along with the warnings about enduring to the end, are false. False because a chosen of God, IAW your post, can't fail to endure (no need to be warned) and also, will never suffer the consequence for not enduring (false threat).

So are the warnings in the Bible TO endure and the consequences for not enduring, only for non-elect? And if so, HOW does that make any sense either

You still haven't answered the question, having simply repeated your previous answer. Where did you get the idea that warnings are not needed? Was this something you concluded on your own or did someone tell you this? Can you defend this presupposition or not? I want you to defend your view that if God guaranteed endurance for some, he would have no reason to warn or encourage anyone to endure. You take this for granted; I don't. If you can't prove this presupposition, then how does it carry any weight?

If you want to make philosophical arguments, then do it right. Prove your assertions. You hold that warnings are required and/or indispensable because without them someone might not endure? How does that follow? Isn't it true that those who endure would have endured, apart from warnings?

Or do you suppose that those who endure know in advance they will endure?