Once again,very unfortunate about the tragedy of this accident What I'm saying,to hopefully clear it up,is that individual interpretations of things differ,hence my suggestion,go to a HD dealership,get hold of an owner/operator manual--READ IT--& draw your own conclusions--again,check out the driver safety course that your State offers or mandates--sf,the answer is very clear to me! learn what the hell you're doing before you get on 1000 lbs of metal,soft,hard,whichever before you get out on the road--there is only one person looking out for you out there & that's yourself It's all about experience & that comes slow--it ain't magic,nor can you buy it w/ a credit card. PS I'm not sure I'm following your idea of "tires being used up"

stockingfull wrote:Fred, nobody's asking you to do "free" research for me. All I'm asking is whether HD clearly warns its riders they're gonna lose the bike in a turn before the tires are used up.

Let's not forget: a rider and his son are dead here.

Either there's an clear answer or there isn't. Apparently there isn't.

freetown fred wrote: PS I'm not sure I'm following your idea of "tires being used up"

Interesting, and telling, that somebody with your experience isn't familiar with this concept.

Modern motorcycle tires have wrap-around tread designed to accommodate up to a certain lean angle of the bike before they go off their shoulder and lose contact surface with the road. If the tire (and the bike, for that matter) will accommodate far greater lean angles than unhinged floorboards or hard "crash bars" will permit, those things could create a "product liability" problem.

Put another way, if everything on the motorcycle would have gone around that corner but the "add-ons" like the bars and floorboards, then those add-ons made the bike unsafe in that corner, with fatal results.

Oh,O.K. now I get it.You mean if I don't know what the hell I'm doing on a particular machine,or know my own limitations pertaining to experience.I run the risk of being maimed or killed--I'm a killed kinda guy myself.Wouldn't want to drain the Health Care system

stockingfull wrote:

freetown fred wrote: PS I'm not sure I'm following your idea of "tires being used up"

Interesting, and telling, that somebody with your experience isn't familiar with this concept.

Modern motorcycle tires have wrap-around tread designed to accommodate up to a certain lean angle of the bike before they go off their shoulder and lose contact surface with the road. If the tire (and the bike, for that matter) will accommodate far greater lean angles than unhinged floorboards or hard "crash bars" will permit, those things could create a "product liability" problem.

Put another way, if everything on the motorcycle would have gone around that corner but the "add-ons" like the bars and floorboards, then those add-ons made the bike unsafe in that corner, with fatal results.

I can't for the life remember where I said I didn't know squat about tires,point proven,Interpretation!--If you do your research,you'll find that those doo-dads were on HD's well back in the 40's 50's 60's etc. If I were real curious I would find some statistics pertaining to accidents being caused by what you are referring to as doo-dads take it for what it's worth,but neither tires nor doo-dads were the cause of that accident--I've had a front tire blow at 65 mph & survived-by knowing what to do(experience on the bike) & good old common sense-I know this much about tires----the suckers can blow out when you least expect it

stockingfull wrote:No, Fred, I get that you have vast experience on HD's.

But, by your own admission, you don't know squat about what modern tires can do. Which is a whole lot more than when you and I started riding.

If a motorcycle goes down, it should be for a good reason. Not bolt-on doo-dads that make it a whole lot less safe at speed.

You didn't seem to get the ref to "tires being used up," Fred. In a corner, that means the point at which you run off the tread shoulder and lose tire grip. For modern tires, that's usually a pretty steep lean angle. Jap bike riders talk about "chicken strips" at the tread edge as an indicator of how far a rider pushes it in corners. But, if cruisers just can't get there, the subject wouldn't ever come up. See?

Been surfing around a little and it looks like there are some big differences in how far different styles of these "crash bars" protrude. Some are tight to the bike and seem just to protect the engine, some stick out far enough to stop the bike from tipping over. (Unfortunately, the accident pics show the bars on the crashed bike to be WIDE.)

One thing I did find was a reference that HD recommends against having such bars on police bikes. That may be an acknowledgment of the handling risk. So the next question becomes whether they were factory bars, then whether there was a clear warning about the handling risk they created.

Having figgered that out, I was able to find a thread which seems to substantiate what Pocono said above. It's pages long and I haven't finished it all but it looks like a pretty good cross-section of riders. And it looks like the consensus is that boards hit first.

stockingfull,just a short visit before your ego implodes--it was explained very clearly that old school bikers refered to them as crash bars--get over pattin yourself on the ass--I mean,really,2 pages to finally get something right,according to your research--attaboy

freetown fred wrote:stockingfull,just a short visit before your ego implodes--it was explained very clearly that old school bikers refered to them as crash bars--get over pattin yourself on the ass--I mean,really,2 pages to finally get something right,according to your research--attaboy

Practice, practice, practice. But I'm not sure how skills at low speed tight manuevers help unless you ride often in a big city urban like Manhatten. Safe riding is more about being aware of 101 things at the same time, analyzing and reacting at speed.

But the guy in the 3rd clip looked more nimble on his BMW. IMO! And you can here the first guy scrape a few times. You can also see scrape marks on the asphalt.

Just had a nice long ride today (280+ miles) down to Lock Haven, PA. We went to the Piper Air Museum. Down on PA Rt. 120, from Emporium down. What a NICE road, lots twisties, straights, a few hairpins. The Connie road great. I think I am up to 1500+ miles so far this year.

We had an FJR1300, FZ6, a Harley and mine. Got a bit wet coming home, but oh well!