Dellucci TailGator wrote:Whether you like his moves or not, there's no denying Antonetti is far, far more aggressive than Shapiro ever was in making deals.

Yup. That's for sure.

This could be a real help to the bullpen, too. If he doesn't fall apart from old age, he's proven himself to be a pretty good workhorse and innings eater. That'll probably be a real benefit, considering how over-taxed our bullpen was this year.

It's Chris Jones, not Chris Smith. He's a solid enough lefthanded relief prospect, but not much to give up for a guy like Lowe, especially with the Braves picking up so much $$. I expected him to be in AA this year after finishing up 2010 in Kinston, but he never got bumped up.

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Wow, first day of the offseason for the Indians and they make some noise. Lowe is not what he used to be, but for your 5th starter and to get a guy who has made 32 or more starts and pitched 182 or more innings for 10 straight seasons is pretty good.

Jones was my 70th ranked prospect coming into 2011....I have not finished my 2012 listing but had him in the 50s. So in a nutshell, the Indians are not losing much and there is little risk. At best, if he makes it, he maybe becomes a loogy.

I guess Antonetti is not a carbon copy of Shapiro like so many proclaimed last year when he took over. Said it before, but just because a guy works under someone does not mean he will be the same. I mean, shoot, Shapiro worked for years as Hart's right hand man and both could not be more different....and so far Antonetti and Shapiro are proving to be much the different poker players.

TonyIPI wrote:Wow, first day of the offseason for the Indians and they make some noise. Lowe is not what he used to be, but for your 5th starter and to get a guy who has made 32 or more starts and pitched 182 or more innings for 10 straight seasons is pretty good.

Jones was my 70th ranked prospect coming into 2011....I have not finished my 2012 listing but had him in the 50s. So in a nutshell, the Indians are not losing much and there is little risk. At best, if he makes it, he maybe becomes a loogy.

I guess Antonetti is not a carbon copy of Shapiro like so many proclaimed last year when he took over. Said it before, but just because a guy works under someone does not mean he will be the same. I mean, shoot, Shapiro worked for years as Hart's right hand man and both could not be more different....and so far Antonetti and Shapiro are proving to be much the different poker players.

Not the time nor the place, but different methods to the same results are still the same results.

If Derek Lowe is 7-18 with an ERA around 6.00 there is some downside. Even at $5M per. Could he be a veteran leader and help this pitching staff? You bet. But he has to pitch a lot better in 2012 than he did in 2011 for it to happen. And switching to the AL is not exactly a recipe for success for a guy with his age and stuff.

I guess I like the deal. I mean, it can't hurt us too badly right? Lowe was pretty solid in the past but is now a shell of what he was. He is an innings machine which is good, but I don't know how much we can depend on him in close games. We didn't give up much and got him for cheap (I guess). Let's get some bats now.

I like the rotation's depth now. You'll have Gomez, Huff, and McAllister waiting in the event of injury/underperformance and you don't have to count on any of them to win a spot. And $5MM sounds like a lot for a mediocre 38 year old until you see what $5MM usually buys you in the starting pitching open market, especially on a one year deal.

Last edited by Kingpin74 on Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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He was a middle-of-the-road starter until he got hammered in September. Maybe at age 38 he ran out of gas or was pitching with a minor injury. But for most of the season he was not that bad. Probably about the equal of Carmona's 2011 season once you adjust the ERA for pitching in the National League.

Even though Carrasco's out for the season, the Indians already have their rotation set to go for Opening Day:

1. Ubaldo2. Masterson3. Tomlin4. Carmona5. Lowe

With Gomez, et al., as depth / replacing Lowe after he combusts at mid-season. Of course, adding Lowe means they might feel a little more flexibility for dealing one of those starters in a package for hitting help.

Jumbo wrote:Even though Carrasco's out for the season, the Indians already have their rotation set to go for Opening Day:

1. Ubaldo2. Masterson3. Tomlin4. Carmona5. Lowe

With Gomez, et al., as depth / replacing Lowe after he combusts at mid-season. Of course, adding Lowe means they might feel a little more flexibility for dealing one of those starters in a package for hitting help.

I doubt they do that. It's best to have at least 9 MLB ready starters. This year we used 10 (I think*) and we were relatively healthy in the rotation. We probably get 1 or 2 more guys on MiLB contracts.

I think I like this move.... Everytime any Cleveland team picks up an older veteran, I think of Shawn Kemp and Jamal Lewis, and I get a stomach ache. I don't think that will be the case with Lowe, and like I heard alot before in the thread, gotta love the aggressiveness. If we could get B.J. Upton, like someone hinted we might, that would be HUGE, and I think it could really give us that boost that we need at the plate.

Love this move. We got a proven major league workhorse for a maybe and 1/3 of his contract. Even if Lowe sucks, there's no downside to this. It's hard to imagine he'd be worse than a full year of Gomez, McAllister, Martinez, or whoever else.

Would have liked a veteran LHP, still would take Wandy, but I'm pleased with Lowe.

That said, now we need a REALLY good defensive 1B since we should lead the league in groundballs induced by starters. Can't let innings snowball because of a shitty 1B.

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skatingtripods wrote:Love this move. We got a proven major league workhorse for a maybe and 1/3 of his contract. Even if Lowe sucks, there's no downside to this. It's hard to imagine he'd be worse than a full year of Gomez, McAllister, Martinez, or whoever else.

Would have liked a veteran LHP, still would take Wandy, but I'm pleased with Lowe.

That said, now we need a REALLY good defensive 1B since we should lead the league in groundballs induced by starters. Can't let innings snowball because of a shitty 1B.

I agree. I think Hannahands is a lock at 3b.

Chiz gets another turn in Columbus. Especially with Donald around.

Anyone know where you can find fielding metrics you don't need a PHD to understand?

I don't get into those metrics as much as others but I know Dan Uggla sucks defensively and Lowe had to likely deal with him throughout the year. Not excusing his numbers entirely but he's one I know for certain.

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skatingtripods wrote:Love this move. We got a proven major league workhorse for a maybe and 1/3 of his contract. Even if Lowe sucks, there's no downside to this. It's hard to imagine he'd be worse than a full year of Gomez, McAllister, Martinez, or whoever else.

Would have liked a veteran LHP, still would take Wandy, but I'm pleased with Lowe.

That said, now we need a REALLY good defensive 1B since we should lead the league in groundballs induced by starters. Can't let innings snowball because of a shitty 1B.

I agree. I think Hannahands is a lock at 3b.

Chiz gets another turn in Columbus. Especially with Donald around.

Anyone know where you can find fielding metrics you don't need a PHD to understand?

Couldn't disagree more.

I like Hannahan. I think he's a potentially valuable member of the team. But he's doesn't start on a championship team. If that's what we are pretending to be.

I can't envision any scenario where Chiz isn't the starting 3B going into and coming out of spring training. And he sure as shit isn't going back to Columbus because you can't keep Hannahan and his tennis racket out of the batters box.

And before anyone says anything, yeah, I understand the whole ground ball pitcher thing. The 3B who gets most of the at bats should be able to, you know, hit and stuff.

One of my favorite baseball analysts is Jim Bowden on MLB radio. He was kind of an eccentric dbag as a GM, but the man knows baseball as well as anyone, and is an outstanding analyst in my mind.

Heard his take on the way home yesterday. He hates the trade from the Indians perspective. His take was along these lines ...

"I watched Derek Lowe during the last six weeks of the season, and he was shot. The Braves lost every one of his Sept and Oct starts and he wouldn't have made the post-season rotation for them. And I'm a big Derek Lowe guy, always have been. It just doesn't look like he's able to consistently get big league hitters out anymore. His stuff just isn't that sharp and his breaking pitches have lost a lot of their bite.

For me, if I'm an Indians fan it is disappointing from the perspective that it tells you that it's likely that there will be no other moves made in the starting rotation. And it speaks to the financial limitations of the coming off-season."

Then he went on to talk about the guy we gave up, and how ATL sees him as a situational lefty that they feel can be up and potentially helping the big league club quicker than a lot of people think. And how the Braves have been so good at identifying and trading for bullpen guys like O'Flaherty and developing them like Venters. He loved the deal for the Braves as they added a minor league arm their brass liked, shaved 5 mill off the payroll that can be used for something else, and it frees up a rotation spot for some of their young guys like Tehran. He said Lowe has shown his days of being able to win big starts late in seasons are over, thus it makes no sense to have him in the rotation if you are a team like the Braves.

Was an interesting perspective.

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smalls1129 wrote:Mother I think you are selling Hannahan way short. The guys bat actually started coming around, he isn't exactly ancient and his glove probably saved 3-4 runs a week.

His glove was outstanding, and he came up with a few big hits, but by and large the bat was a black hole. Don't get me wrong, I like the guy and think there could be a place on the roster for him in 2012, but I don't see much chance that Chiz isn't the opening day 3B next year.

You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves-----Abe Lincoln

Let me tell you, if any of you douchebag empty headed stuffed suit nanny politicians tries to fuck with my bacon, I’m going after you like a crazed chimpanzee on bath salts. -----Lars

smalls1129 wrote:Mother I think you are selling Hannahan way short. The guys bat actually started coming around, he isn't exactly ancient and his glove probably saved 3-4 runs a week.

His glove was outstanding, and he came up with a few big hits, but by and large the bat was a black hole. Don't get me wrong, I like the guy and think there could be a place on the roster for him in 2012, but I don't see much chance that Chiz isn't the opening day 3B next year.

Not sure I follow this whole Jack Hanahan thing. It's like he's the only guy on God's green earth that can pick up a ground ball. For the thousandth time - there's literally hundreds of guys hangin' around that can play a good defensive third base, but they are currently in sales cause they couldn't hit. It's not whether Jack Hanahan is far superior to Lonnie Chisenthall defensively - when we're speaking of the case of Jack Hanahan the question needs to be, can the guy help the team win?

And if you've got Jack Hanahan getting 500 at bats in your offense, well, you're behind the eight ball right out of the box. The optimist sees a good three weeks at the end of the season (against September pitching), while somehow ignoring that he's been a cipher the entire rest of his career, and, if you watched him hit during the year, you should have taken notice the Buick sized hole in a long swing.

And I'm not a prospect guy, but Lonnie is supposedly one of the better ones in the organization. To hold him up for Jack Hanahan is beyond ridiculous. And I would contend, that if he's having a hard time taking time away from Jack Hanahan, then he ain't much of a prospect.

In regards to Derek Lowe - I'd feel much better if the Raiders gave up on him, instead of an organization that knows what the hell they are doing - especially in regards to pitching.

I think the plan with Lowe is to use him to buy a few months for Gomez, McAlister and Barnes to get finished off in Columbus, then trade him mid-season for a prospect and to save $2.5 million. Barnes is recovering from knee surgery and will need more time. From what I've seen of McAlister, he's not ready. However, I think Gomez is better than Lowe right now and ready to be a BOR starter, so I'm a little confused by this trade.

bookelly wrote:I doubt they do that. It's best to have at least 9 MLB ready starters. This year we used 10 (I think*) and we were relatively healthy in the rotation. We probably get 1 or 2 more guys on MiLB contracts.

The Indians actually have more depth beyond McAllister, Huff and Gomez in Triple-A. Scott Barnes will be added to the roster this offseason and is about big league ready, and both Hector Rondon and Cory Kluber should be in the rotation (somehow).

The Triple-A rotation is actually very crowded, so I don't see them signing many guys to NRI deals as they simply don't have a spot to play them once the season starts. They have guys in Akron who need to get to Columbus who won't be going there to start the season, so no need even for NRI guys for AAA depth. Indians have a lot of "depth" as far as starting pitching goes from AA to MLB.....not much star power after Ubaldo/Masterson but lots of quality depth so not much reason for those NRI guys.

I agree that 1B may end up being a defensive upgrade and not so much an offensive upgrade. The infield defense is barely okay and there is little wiggle room to change anywhere else on the infield, so 1B is really only it. Cripes, considering how braindead LaPorta was last year anything at 1B might be a significant upgrade.