Poor Affleck! On that evening’s Real Time with Bill Maher, Maher and Sam Harris were trying to make some sort of claim about the way liberals react, or fail to react, to “illiberal” conduct and belief in the Muslim world.

MAHER: No, it’s not! No it’s not. It’s based on facts. I can show you a Pew poll of Egyptians—they are not outliers in the Muslim world—that say like 90 percent of them believe death is the appropriate response to leaving the religion. If 90 percent of Brazilians thought death was the appropriate response to leaving Catholicism, you would think it was a bigger deal.

AFFLECK: I would think it’s a big deal no matter what.

MAHER: OK, but that’s the fact.

AFFLECK: What I wouldn’t do is say, “It’s all Brazilians.” Or I wouldn’t say, “Well, Ted Bundy did this. Goddamn these gays, they’re all trying to eat each other!”

In that passage, the aggrieved movie star dropped two more bombs. It was like Harris and Maher were making ugly claims about blacks, he said. It was like they we remaking ugly claims in which all gays got blamed for the criminal acts of Ted Bundy.

(Was Bundy gay? Did he eat his victims? We don’t understand the last of these bombs, but its general import seemed clear.)

Affleck had gone for the hat trick. In slightly more than eight minutes, he had accused Harris and Maher of behaving like the ugliest kinds of anti-Semites, racists and homophobes. At the nine-minute mark, he got a bit of help from the New York Times’ Nicholas Kristof:

KRISTOF: But this is such a caricature of Indonesia, of Malaysia, so much of the world. And this does have a tinge, a little bit, of the way white racists talk about African-Americans and define blacks by black criminals, which are not representative.

Kristof was more refined than the visibly overwrought Hollywood liberal who sat beside him. To him, the presentation by Harris and Maher had created “a caricature” of much of the world.

In the remarks by Harris and Maher, Kristof had detected “a tinge, a little bit, of the way white racists talk about” blacks. On the basis of that “tinge,” he was willing to drop a bit of an R-bomb too.

Increasingly, this is The Way We Argue in the liberal world. In the course of this ten-minute semi-discussion, Maher and Harris were compared to white racists on two occasions. They were also compared to the worst kinds of anti-Semites and to the grossest homophobes.

Bombs were dropped four separate times in the course of ten minutes. Increasingly, this is The Way We Argue, especially in the on-line liberal world.

At this point, an obvious fact should be noted. Sometimes, people do talk like racists, like homophobes and anti-Semites.

Sometimes, people talk that way when they talk about Muslims!

Did Harris and Maher talk that way? Was there good reason for the bombs which littered the countryside during this ten-minute cruise?

Tomorrow, we’re going to look at the things Harris and Maher actually said that night. In our view, each man said at least one thing which would have been better left unsaid—although the bombs had started to fall before those comments were uttered.

It’s also true that Affleck made one or two sensible points that night. At the 87-second mark, he asked a perfectly good question when he broke in for the first time. Later, he stated an unfortunate but accurate fact about American conduct in the Muslim world.

In a slightly different world, Affleck could have helped create a useful discussion. Given the way we currently argue, that didn’t happen this night.

Tomorrow, we’re going to look at the things Maher and Harris said. Unfortunately, though, we must state a key fact:

Listening can be hard!

Again and again, Affleck seemed completely unable to hear what these other people had said. Increasingly, that too is The Way We Argue. Can a modern nation hope to succeed when its citizens function this way?

" Can a modern nation hope to succeed when its citizens function this way?"

The Left does have a tendency to eat their own. Not that it's just the Left, because conservatives who worship St Ronaldus seem to have forgotten his dictum 'speak no evil of another republican' in recent years. As for the Left just look at the disarray in Scotland over the referendum. It's part and parcel of the Left to squabble over nictating points, or who is more righteously non-bigoted. Orwell came back from Catalonia in a dispirited state over the behavior of the Left. I see Affleck with a bit of that reflection, but he wasn't really prepared as he should have been to make a salient point. He obviously was ferring to other shows wherein Maher was on his high trapeze making snide and frankly bigoted comments about muslims in general. Affeck dropped the ball, but I still think he was on the right track, just at the wrong time.

Is Affleck an example of the Left eating its own? Maher is not of the Left. He is an Independent who supported Obama but who generally leans Libertarian. His show typically includes both left and right panelists, and he dated Ann Coulter (how Left could he be and do that?) and now calls her friend.

Affleck should have been prepared to talk about Islam fundamentalism given that it is so much in the news every week. Maher makes snide and bigoted comments about members of ALL religions. It is his schtick.

I don't agree that Affleck was on the right track. I tend to agree with Maher that religions are given a pass instead of criticized and I see no reason why Maher should not criticize whatever religion he wants. Being critical of the teachings or practices of a religion is not bigotry. It can be legitimate analysis. For Maher it is just another source of humor and that may be what is annoying those who take religion seriously.

I have no religious affiliation, but I do have some respect for the beliefs of others, no matter how silly it may sound to me.

He doesn't just criticize. His bigotry toward those he derides comes from a superior attitude. But thanks for finding a niche for argumentation. Maybe he is Left Libertarian, or anarchist (doubtful) but he jerks left most of the time. What the hell are labels anyway? I watch behaviors, rather than listen to words. Anyone can call themselves what they wish.

I don't think he jerks left. I think he jerks Californian. His odd beliefs about food and health are not shared by liberals in other parts of the country. He buys into some very wrong economic beliefs and he has very little empathy for people struggling (a non-left trait). He dislikes women and he makes racist jokes frequently, something I doubt a left jerking person would do (as much as he does). I really don't want to own him as part of my tribe (the Left Jerkers).

Although it's politically incorrect to say, IMHO some cultures are better than others. Also, a group defined by race or religion is apt to have sub-cultures that that differ from each other.

E.g., the book The Uncivil War by Taleeb Starkes says there are two very different groups of African Americas. The majority are hard-working, honest, and upwardly mobile. OTOH he says a particular inner city minority are sociopathic. People who speak in Ebonics, have no interest in education, commit many crimes. are content to live on welfare, etc. Acknowledging this difference is valuable, because it leads to consideration of how to motivate African Americans to adopt the values and culture of the former group, rather than the latter.

A parallel dichotomy applies to Muslims. IMHO it's very important that we seek ways to get Muslims to adopt healthy values and culture, rather than the sociopathic culture of what's often called "radical" Islam.

Well, after we finally bring Jesus to those reluctantlydysfunctional African Americans, DinC. so their tax dollars are coming inb from the ghetto instead of going there to waste, perhaps then we can insist our petro dollars be spent by them Muslims on better cultural and value adoption.

I read the Starkes book as well and appreciated his courage. There are indeed cultures and religions that are better than others. The Christian religion in its modern and if positive influence in the world. The Muslim religion in its modern and mainstream form is not. Fundamentalist atheism and anti-theism are the most dangerous of all modern faiths because without an objective moral underpinning there is no reason for humans to behave in any particular manner with regard to each other.

You can have an objective moral underpinning without religion. There is no difference in the moral behavior of religious and non-religious people, empirically. Religious people do seem to have trouble figuring out where non-religious people get their morals, if not from religion, but the answer is that we all get our morals from our culture and families, and all people have that as an influence on them.

Interesting that DAinCA didn't give the full title of Starke's book. It's The Uncivil War: blacks vs niggers.

I'm waiting for the NAACP to give their next image award jointly to DAinCA and Starkes so that the two of them can explain the difference between "dsyfunctional African Americans" and niggers. They can then head over to the ADL to expound on how to distinguish good Jews from the kikes who run international finance. And I'm sure the Italian American Civil Rights League would love to be instructed on how to spot a good person of Italian descent and one of those wop bastard mafiosi.

Both deadrat and 2:16 PM responded with snark. I think that's because they don't have a good logical response They can't deny the existence of a dysfunctional African-American element. They can't deny the existence of Muslims who commit mass murder and saw people's heads off in the name of Islam. Yet, it isn't considered acceptable to talk about these groups. I think both of them are trying to discourage any discussion about these groups. In other words, political correctness requires that one be in denial.

Might the book change my mind if I decided to waste time reading an author who thinks that it's a good thing to include a racial slur in his book's title? Anything is possible, but I sure as hell don't intend to listen to this advice from someone who never checks his sources.

And ya know, life is too short to read much crap from rightards no matter what color their skin. I did click through a YouTube video of Adam Carolla interviewing Starke, though. (I skipped Carolla yakking, which is most of it.) Here's the height of the man's wit. He keeps his daughter from dating boys with sagging pants by telling them that he has "a shotgun, a shovel, and an airtight alibi."

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

Yeah, it's more snark, which is actually more than it deserves. No one, me included, denies that there "dysfunctional" black people or that there are Muslims who commit mass murder. And if you think I'm capable of discouraging discussion, just consider that KZ is still pimping his spellcasting here.

If Maher and Harris aren't racists I don't know who is. Somersby went on and on promising us that nest time he will summarize what they were saying. In the meantime, before he even attempts to explain the context for Affleck's remarks he comes down on him for using "the R word." To use the language of this blog "Darling, such things should never be said!" Bob Gardner Randolph, MA

Here in this post he flirts with another derivation of the same initials and numbers. Mario Mendoza and .200.

Maybe is would be better to class this post as being on the Interstate. Stuck in the potholes caused by paving your post with badly mixed metaphors from sportscasting.

Really BOB? Rain Delay, that reminder that the timeless summer game of baseball is subject to seemingly endless interruptions beyond human control. From that you jump to a reference to a game derived to give pleasure to a populace reduced to droning to the repetitious and relentless beat of a clock?

Jeez, and all this for an actor accused of dropping bombs? At least you could have said he was trying to be one of the M&M boys but wound up looking like he was auditioning for a part in the Broadway version of the Bronx Bombers instead. Then there would have been a connection for your mixed metaphor. And the reviews and results of the play would be equal to your post.

Yes, Part 2 of what is sure to be several parts with multiple supplementals as soon as they cross Somerby's mind about the Great HBO Debate between the intellectual giants Ben Affleck and Bill Maher.

You know, the debate that once and for all illustrates the Decline and Fall of Western Democracy because, after all, nobody ever said such mean things before.

But let's give Bob credit for this. When Bob gloms onto a metaphor, by golly, he'll stick with it for days, regardless of whether he is the only person on earth who seems to know what the hell he is talking about.

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Liberals should dig in and fight like hell over a 15 year-old election. They shouldn't, however, fight like hell over racism. Or pretty much anything, although they should resent Rachel Maddow's smirk, or laugh, or whatever it is about her that annoyed Bob recently.

Of course you can fight racism by calling people names. Name calling has its place in the public sphere. So does displaying passion about things that are important to you, things that piss you off.

I remember, 15 years or so ago, thinking the gay rights people were too extreme, too demanding, not patient enough, too uncompromising, too loud, and so on and so on and so on. I look at what they've accomplished, and realize now I was wrong and they were right. If you want something, you fight for it. You namecall. You battle, scratch, scream, throw glitter, put yourself in front of snarling dogs, whatever it takes. Because other people see that and realize you MEAN it. Sure, it might not leave a good impression, at the time. But it leaves an impression. And that's the point.

To a degree, it's a squeaky wheel sort of thing. To another degree, it's a signal to other people who share your views that it's ok to actually stand up for what you believe in. Of course, to Bob, it's just counterproductive, because it's not done over his pet issue: the 2000 election. If Affleck had pitched a fit over Al Gore's mistreatment in 2000, I guarantee you Bob would have been applauding him.

In fact, he talks about it all the time. Even when he talks about the runup to it, it's to complain about the outcome of the election itself as justification for his endless droning: "It put George Bush in the White House. How did you like that?" You're being intentionally stupid. Or maybe not intentionally.

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