The horror, the sordidness of the awful abuse of children by figures of spiritual authority is not much assuaged by current Archbishop Jose Gomez relieving Cardinal Mahony of "all public duties" after mounting evidence showed he shielded pedophile priests from law enforcement.

So Mahony won't be overseeing the Sacrament of Confirmation at Our Lady of the Angels anytime soon. But he is not only still a priest who can perform Mass - he is still one of the 120 cardinals who form the leadership of a church with more than 1.1 billion adherents worldwide, in a line going back to St. Peter.

Given what we now know about Mahony's active efforts to protect known and suspected sexual abusers in clerical collars, this removal of him from public life is not only not enough - it's no punishment at all.

And this crime deserves punishment. That was made clear by the heartbreaking letters that were made public last week.

Go to any one of over 100 of them posted last week at la-archdiocese.org. The very first one in this alphabetical order was written by a anonymous parishioner molested as a child at a Colorado Roman Catholic Church summer camp by the Rev. Leonard Abercrombie, who later worked in Los Angeles.

Dated July 18, 2003, it begins quite simply:

"Pope John Paul II, The Holy See, Vatican City, Rome, Italy.

"Dear Pope: In July 1993 I wrote a letter to you ..."

That long letter detailing the writer's sexual abuse as a child of 7 by Abercrombie was never answered over the decade, though it was copied to other bishops and to princes of the church, including Los Angeles' own Cardinal Roger Mahony, who oversaw Abercrombie's later pastoral career.

"I informed each of you that the Denver diocese of the Roman Catholic Church had covered up Abercrombie's predation of children making it possible for him to molest me and others that I knew of when I wrote to you. ..."

"I informed each of you that this horror was systemic in your church, and to you, dear pope, I wrote, `Your bishops have known about it and they have been covering it up as a matter of course. Apparently, they haven't informed you of their criminal complicity.' So I did.

"In the ten years that have passed I have never heard a word of apology from any of you" with the exception of a bishop who happened to be a family friend, who said: "I am sure the Holy Father will respond to your letter." He never did.

Joelle Casteix, western regional director of Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests, said the action to remove Mahony from some duties is simply "too little too late."

Most cardinals leave the college in just two ways: by death or by election to the papacy.

Though highly unusual, it is possible to resign. The last to do so was French Cardinal S.J. Louis Billot in 1927. The rub is that the pope has to accept such a resignation, so it's not known if any cardinal has tried to step down during these decades of the church's sexual-abuse scandals or at any other time during the last 85 years.

But, as a small gesture toward acknowledging these enormous crimes against over 500 Angeleno parishioners, Mahony ought to offer his resignation.

....this crime deserves punishment. That was made clear by the heartbreaking letters that were made public last week. Go to any one of over 100 of them posted last week at la-archdiocese.org....

....Most cardinals leave the college in just two ways: by death or by election to the papacy. Though highly unusual, it is possible to resign. The last to do so was French Cardinal S.J. Louis Billot in 1927. The rub is that the pope has to accept such a resignation, so it's not known if any cardinal has tried to step down during these decades of the church's sexual-abuse scandals or at any other time during the last 85 years.

But, as a small gesture toward acknowledging these enormous crimes against over 500 Angeleno parishioners, Mahony ought to offer his resignation. And Pope Benedict XVI ought to accept it.

The files at the Los Angeles Archdiocese site aren't there voluntarely, but are made public only under the court order of Judge Emilie Elias. It took two years, and a court order, to get Gomez to do something about Mahony. But two years ago, Gomez was singing a different tune:

At the transition Mass, Archbishop Gomez graciously thanked the cardinal for his leadership of the archdiocese over the course of 26 years. Cardinal Mahony's legacy, he said, is a Church that radiates the love of God and the truth of the Gospel.

He has shown us what Christ wants his Church to be  a communion of cultures and a communion of saints, one family of God drawn from every country, race, and language. The archbishop said that Cardinal Mahony has helped us open our hearts, to love God and to love our brothers and sisters. -- from the thread Cardinal Mahony retires, passes leadership in LA to Archbishop Gomez

I was in the parish where Michael Baker started his mess which cost the church 60 million.

The priest started out staring at women's breasts and being real touchy with them.

The guy looked like a cross between Elvis and an offensive end. He was also a gifted speaker and when people in the parish like my mother who was head of the prayer community complained everywhere Baker was protected. From Mahony down to the other parishioners. Some parishioners had Baker in their will and he also inherited millions and a couple of houses or so.

I was in the parish where Michael Baker started his mess which cost the church 60 million.

The priest started out staring at women's breasts and being real touchy with them.

The guy looked like a cross between Elvis and an offensive end. He was also a gifted speaker and when people in the parish like my mother who was head of the prayer community complained everywhere Baker was protected. From Mahony down to the other parishioners. Some parishioners had Baker in their will and he also inherited millions and a couple of houses or so.

The new Archbishop has done as much as he is empowered to do. And he did it fairly soon after assuming office, presumably after first taking the time to examine the facts first-hand, as best he could, as was right and proper.

If, as I suspect but don’t know, Cardinal Mahony was criminally guilty of complicity or encouragement in the earlier crimes, then it is up to the justice system to do something about it. But the justice system is conflicted. The liberals who control it in places like L.A. whine and complain about pederast priests from one side of their mouths, even while they excuse similar behavior by public school teachers out of the other side of their mouths, and even as they actually teach it in grade school to innocent children.

Yes, things got badly out of hand in that archdiocese. The Church has been repairing the damage that was done within it, mostly back in the 70s, by dissident bishops and priests, some out of ignorance and a few knowingly complicit in the evil. Yet the justice system that should deal with it is at the same time saying that homosexual marriage, homosexual adoption, and even man-boy love are good things, and it is discriminatory or illegal to suggest otherwise. Church adoption agencies have been forced out of business because they refuse to let homosexual couples adopt children. Not back in the 70s, but right now.

Plenty of evil to go around. So why criticize a new bishop for doing his job as best he can?

Just what the God-hating leftist have wanted for years. And this is because of the Church’s stance against women priests, abortion, and sodomite “marriage”. Years ago leftists infiltrated the Church with homosexuals and now is trying to tarnish the whole Church. The way the Church should handle this is to NEVER let a sodomite become a priest. They can no longer just ask a man applying for the simimary does he have strong homosexual desires. Sodomites lie about their sexual urges. Homosexual men can not control their urges. 99% of these cases are queer priests preying on adolescent boys. Get rid of the queers, solve the problem. The Catholic Church is the only organized church in the world and has the money and that’s why you never hear a word about Jews and protestant sex abuse. And public schools have a much higher rate of sex abuse among teachers, but the media ignores them. They don’t care. The media will also never tell you that the ones doing the sex abuse in the Catholic Church are queers, and that’s because they love homosexuals. The media just wants to tar and feather all priests and try to destroy the Catholic Church. Well it’s been around for 2,000 years and if the world stands for 2,000 more years it will still be around.

Another point: Mahoney has his protectors, too, and they are all in the political establishment. Like McCracken, he is a liberal, and apart from the issue of abortion and on traditional marriage, his stands on most political issues sound like they were issued by the DNC. Years ago, he clashed with Mother Angelica, the feisty nun who started EWTN, contrary to the wishes of the Hierarchy, who wanted to establish their own media network. There is little doubt that such a network would have taken its direction from the likes of Mahoney. So Mahoney has friends in low places, one might say. He represents all the things that have gone wrong in the Church since the end of Vatican II.

The churchdoes make mistakes, whether one is talking about the leaders of the Church or the rest of us. The Holy Ghost does not make mistakes, and it props up us poor sinners in the Church and keeps us from putting the ship on the rocks and breaking up in the raging seas. As Paul says, we should not boast of the good that we do, but give all credit to the Lord, and confess our unworthiness.

let's see now....the RCC is over two thousand years old....it is worldwide....it is the largest charitible organization in the history of the world, is it the oldest organization in the history of the world....and a handful of humans, in the LosAngeles archdiocese turn out to be evil people....you condemn the entire organization.......that's kind of like saying that because Bill Clinton abused an intern under his authority....the U.S. Government is evil.....PATHETIC

Well its been around for 2,000 years and if the world stands for 2,000 more years it will still be around.
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You should follow Christ instead. He’ll be here forever, world or no world. And your money won’t be feeding pimps and pedophiles.

and a handful of humans, in the LosAngeles archdiocese
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Have you been living under a rock the last 20 years? A handful in Los Angeles? Thousands of children worldwide should be so lucky.

I don’t think so from your post, for you do not seem to realize that the Catholic Church and the Catholic Mass are totally focused on Jesus Christ. Are you getting this misinformation from someone who hates the Catholic Church? Or from a pamplet?

If you had attended a Catholic Mass you would have realized that almost all the prayers come from the Bible.

Liturgy of the Word includes the greeting, the Collect sometimes from the Bible with added words, the OT readings, a NT reading, usually from St. Paul, and the Gospel from one of the four Evangelists, Matthew, Mark, Luke or John. Then the priest will give a homily or explanation, usually of the Gospel and apply it to those days, then to our present life in this modern world.

Then the Mass moves to the Litrugy of the Eucharist where the memorial of Christ’s Body and Blood is celebrated and the people receive the REAL Body and Blood of Christ, and then we have the closing prayers and final blessing.

I think you will be amazed at how much is straight from the Bible. That’s what converted Scott Hahn.

money and thats why you never hear a word about Jews and protestant sex abuse

It's also about record keeping. Many other denominations don't keep the detailed records that the Catholic Church does. If schools and other institutions had their personnel and administrative files searched for decades past there would no doubt be some findings there too.

Just curious, do you feel this way about Baptists and their sex abuse coverup?

We are all members of the Body of Christ, are we not? Abuse in ANY denomination is a wound on the Body of Christ, is it not? Wouldn't our kids be better off if we circled the wagons and did our best to make EVERY Christian environment a safe setting for them instead of throwing stones and pitting one denomination vs another?

Also, please bear in mind that in 2003, the State of California changed the statute of limitations regarding child abuse claims against the Catholic Church, only, opening the door for very old claims to be filed (after memories have faded, witnesses passed away, and exculpatory evidence lost— placing a tremendous burden on the defendants to prove innocence) and leading the way to the $650,000,000.00 settlement in 2007. In contrast, child abuse claims against public institutions must be brought within 6 months of the incident, regardless of the age of the victim. As to all others, the statute is six years after the victim’s 18th birthday. Why the difference?

Child abuse is rampant in the the foster care and public school systems, and happens in other denominations and private institutions as well. Apparently “Equal protection under the law” doesn’t mean what it used to mean.

Amen, brother. And I'd add that no decent person should be publicly associated with any RCC clergy. Let's face it: being a Catholic priest is about the most disreputable thing one can be nowadays. I'd rather be called a drug dealer than a Catholic priest. Being a drug dealer at least implies a certain entrepreneurial panache. But the Roman collar implies only sexual perversion, the worst kind of child sex abuse, and complete unaccountability at all levels. No decent person should be associated with it. After all, St. Paul warns us gravely of scandal and its effects. Being associated with any Catholic clergy can only lend one's good name to scandalizing the innocent.

Don't know how common it is, but there are at least several cases right now in NY where Hasidic Jews excommunicate members who take legal action against other Hasids who abused them. Or who they claim did.

I'm not a huge fan of the RCC, but such activity is endemic whenever an organization starts to think the protection of the organization or group is more important than the truth or the protection of actual people. See Penn State, the French Army in the Dreyfuss Case, etc.

The very first one in this alphabetical order was written by a anonymous parishioner molested as a child at a Colorado Roman Catholic Church summer camp by the Rev. Leonard Abercrombie, who later worked in Los Angeles.

This falls prey to a common logical flaw.

That this person was molested is not a fact, it is a claim. While there is extremely good evidence that the RCC had a coverup of much such abuse over the years, any individual claim can still be true or untrue. It is not at all unlikely that some of the claims are invented or delusional.

The Church, i.e., one, true, Holy Church, is the body of Christ, and that Church is the Catholic Church, the only
faith in the world that lives by the world of God, not a show of hands. The only church started by Jesus Christ himself, the rest started by men. The Bible was written by Catholics.

“The Gospels came from the Catholic Church, not the Church from the Gospels” ~ Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

Wow, a real live, breathing example of the fallacy of false generalization! Reality: the number of priests accused of molestation is well less than 5% (less if you count only priests in active ministry). Do you think 5% of Republicans are racists? I do. Do you think 5% of Republicans cheat on their taxes? I do. According to your (pathetic excuse for) logic, when I hear “Republican”, I should think “racist tax cheat” ... right?

Does it bother you at all that part of the ongoing tithes that you give will support men like the one in this story who feed young boys to pedophiles? If you were in charge of policy in such a situation, what would you do?

“Does it bother you at all that part of the ongoing tithes that you give will support men like the one in this story who feed young boys to pedophiles?”

No money I have ever given has been used for anything of the kind. I know this for a fact. I attend a Latin Mass parish. We’re not really part of the diocesan structure as other parishes are. And, anyway, we have a very good diocese which has not had the problems other diocese have had at anywhere near the frequency other diocese have had them. My previous diocese also had almost no cases of abuse committed by diocesan priests for the decade I lived in that diocese. Pick a good parish and diocese and you don’t have problems.

“If you were in charge of policy in such a situation, what would you do?”

Jesus said “The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
Mat 13:32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.” a mustard is not a tree but this one grew to be a tree. and Jesus interpreted the fowls being ministers of Satan in a previous parable of the sower. My suggestion is for people to know their bible. Since the printing press people do not have to rely on the church to learn what the bible says. This sexual abuse was known by the lay people too and they should not rely on the “hierarchy” when became apparent nothing was being done by the church (Roman Catholic). Other church ought not think they are exempt from this problem too. I’m sure the press will build this up to be much bigger than it is but the mistakes are done now.

When a Catholic puts money into the collection basket at Mass, it goes to support his parish directly. (Parish budgets aren't secret; it's part of the pastor's job to report the numbers back to the parishioners.). Collections that support something other than the parish are announced as such.

I think we can safely say that you have no "inside knowledge" that either my parish or Vladimir's is "feeding children to predators," right? Neither do we. So, that being the case, it would seem not to be the case that our tithes are going to support those predators.

Reality: the number of priests accused of molestation is well less than 5%

you're missing the point. First, the percentage of bishops and cardinals who looked the other way is way over 5%. In my home diocese of Green Bay, Bishop Wycislo looked the other way many times and moved a monster like Father John Patrick Feeney from parish to parish, where he did the same thing over and over again. Feeney is now serving what amounts to a life sentence, thank God and the District Attorney. No thanks to the Catholic hierarchy.

Archbishop Weakland of Milwaukee is another scum-sucking bottom-feeding queer who allowed all all sorts of abuse to go on. That lowlife finally was forced out due to giving Diocese money to his rent-a-boy. Note well the role of the laity in all this - they only gave a damn when their money got messed with.

And way more than 5% of Catholic priests, at least in the States, are of a homosexual orientation - and this in the teeth of long established Church directives that homosexuals are not to be admitted to the seminary. Again, the hierarchy makes rules it has no intention of keeping. It is precisely the bishops and cardinals and the Popes who appointed them who are to blame for all of this.

I stand my my assertion that no decent person can be associated with scum like Law, Weakland, Mahoney, and on and on. I can't even appear to be associated with that sort of evil.

you're missing the point. First, the percentage of bishops and cardinals who looked the other way is way over 5%.

No amount of cowardice, foolishness, or any other vice on the part of bishops can ever make it right to slander good priests -- which is the vast majority of them -- as child molesters, sorry. So stop doing it.

Archbishop Weakland of Milwaukee is another scum-sucking bottom-feeding queer who allowed all all sorts of abuse to go on.

Indeed. But for most of his career, what we knew about him was that he was a fluffy liberal who wreckovated churches and taught mush. And good priests and orthodox faithful in Milwaukee did their best to stop his heterodox interferences with the faith.

And way more than 5% of Catholic priests, at least in the States, are of a homosexual orientation - and this in the teeth of long established Church directives that homosexuals are not to be admitted to the seminary. Again, the hierarchy makes rules it has no intention of keeping.

More like Rome makes rules that the American hierarchy had no intention of keeping (and says as much). It's not Rome's fault that they said in 1962 that homosexuals didn't belong in the priesthood, and the American bishops basically said back to them, "MYOB".

But what about Pope Benedict’s emmissaries to inspect the monasteries/seminaries and clean them out.

Isn’t that why we have huge numbers of straight men applying for priesthood now and willing to undergo strenous psychological exams (2 days) and then days and days of interviews from the seminary/monastery?

It's not Rome's fault that they said in 1962 that homosexuals didn't belong in the priesthood . . .

But it is Rome's fault. First, Rome either knew or should have known what was going on with guys like Bernadine in Chicago before he was elevated to the office of Bishop. If they knew they were directly complicit, if they didn't know but should have known then they're indirectly liable due to negligence. Choose your poison. Second, once the mismanagement became known, all the Pope had to do was issue a decree moving, say, Weakland to one of the defunct diocese of North Africa. The Pope can do that under canon law. He can't just demote a bishop, but he can assign a bishop as he pleases. As Bishop of Ben Ghazi, Weakland would have not been in a position to scandalize the faithful.

Follow the law - as good bishops and priests do. ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Specifically what would you do with those responsible with passing priests around to new parishes and new victims rather than turn them over to the police?

Ah, how about the thread that we’re on???
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The horror, the sordidness of the awful abuse of children by figures of spiritual authority is not much assuaged by current Archbishop Jose Gomez relieving Cardinal Mahony of “all public duties” after mounting evidence showed he shielded pedophile priests from law enforcement.

So Mahony won’t be overseeing the Sacrament of Confirmation at Our Lady of the Angels anytime soon. But he is not only still a priest who can perform Mass - he is still one of the 120 cardinals who form the leadership of a church with more than 1.1 billion adherents worldwide, in a line going back to St. Peter.

Given what we now know about Mahony’s active efforts to protect known and suspected sexual abusers in clerical collars, this removal of him from public life is not only not enough - it’s no punishment at all.

And this crime deserves punishment. That was made clear by the heartbreaking letters that were made public last week.
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So what would you do with STILL CARDINAL Mahoney? A fiend who passed pedophiles around to prey on innocent children and a man your church still considers a Cardinal. And what will you do to back up your words? Honestly, I feel like I’m talking to aliens when I have these conversations.

First, I would have to know exactly what he did in detail. That would require an investigation. That’s why I believe there should be an inquisition.

Second, I do not know if he can formally be removed from the college of cardinals, but he could be removed from the clerical state.

We can’t burn anyone at the stake. I’m not saying that’s a plus either.

“A fiend who passed pedophiles around to prey on innocent children and a man your church still considers a Cardinal.”

Again, the problem is that I don’t even know if a cardinal can be removed from the college. There might be no mechanism for it - much like Jimmy Savile can’t have his knighthood (or whatever his rank was) removed because there is no mechanism for it.

“And what will you do to back up your words?”

Well, as a ‘civilian’, I can’t do anything to back up my words just like everyone else in this thread. That’s the reality of the situation. I can only leave it in the hands of God, pray, fast, and work for justice. My power and influence is limited.

“Honestly, I feel like Im talking to aliens when I have these conversations.”

That’s probably because you have no idea of what you’re talking about and you’re trying to force a worldly answer onto a spiritual problem. I don’t think you’re having a conversation. I think you’re just babbling without any understanding.

If your child or grandchildren was raped by a priest sent to your church by a cardinal who knew about him raping children in the past, who you consider that a ‘spiritual’ problem and pray about it as opposed to calling the police? This is actually happening to children! Babbling my a$$!

“If your child or grandchildren was raped by a priest sent to your church by a cardinal who knew about him raping children in the past, who you consider that a spiritual problem and pray about it as opposed to calling the police?”

You’re proving my point when I said you don’t understand this. Yes, it’s a spriritual problem. That doesn’t mean it isn’t criminal as well. Do you even understand what is meant by “spiritual problem”? Apparently not.

“This is actually happening to children! Babbling my a$$!”

That’s what you’re doing - babbling. You proved my point.
Believe me, if we had an inquisition, none of this would have happened as it did. We should still have one today.

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