Advice for Tank changeovers

This is a discussion on Advice for Tank changeovers within the Beginner Freshwater Aquarium forums, part of the Freshwater Fish and Aquariums category; -->
Hey everyone,
Figured I'd bother you all again with some prepatory questions.
I currently have 6 little goldies from 1-3.5 inches living in a ...

I currently have 6 little goldies from 1-3.5 inches living in a 10 gallon tank that is still just starting the cycling process.

I plan on moving them to a larger 25-30 gallon or so tank, but I will also need to cycle that tank, and then when all that's done, I'd like to raise cherry shrimp in the 10 gallon the goldies call home now.

Once I get the larger tank, and want to start cycling it, I was curious of a few things.

Would the cycle be aided if I were to empty my pwc water from the goldfish into the larger tank,
As it seems like ammonia and all of that gross stuff is the main part of the cycle, I did not know if putting my 3-4 gallons of bad goldfish water into the larger tank throughout the cycling process would help speed things up, as I'm not sure if I'm going to do a fishless cycle or not, and it almost seems like putting the nice fish-wastified water into the fishless cycling tank could benefit it.

The new tank will of course be for the 6 goldfish, so I know it will already be overstocked, but can anyone make a suggestion for a fish(or multiple fish) to cycle the tank with that would be hardy enough to try to survive.

I would prefer to not cycle the tank with one of the goldfish I have now, as their tank is still in the cycle process, and I hate to take one of them out of their bettering conditions, to throm them into worse tank all over again.

Any suggestions or advice on cycling the new tank would be greatly appreciated!
If it would be possibly to do an effective fishless cycle by introducing a few gallons of the fish-infested water daily, or every other day it would be ideal, but I know the world isn't that easy, I'm also not sure if maybe the cycle could be done solely by adding a few gallons of that water when I do my changes and slowly getting the tank up to its capacity, rather than filling it with 30 gallons, and dumping it every time I add the worse water, as there would preferably be no fish in it to need the large amounts of water to move in.

My next question is about using the 10 gallon tank once they're moved.
I would love to raise cherry shrimp in the 10 gallon tank the goldfish are in, as I have heard its fairly easy to raise and breed them.
I know I would need a heater for them to be able to breed, and it looks like a sponge filter is the best way to go for the shrimplings, but I was curious if I should just monitor the water conditions when I switch the goldfish out, and keep the water as it is so the bacteria can be best established and ready to go for the shrimp, or if I should for some reason clean out the tank before the shrimp and require a new cycle again.

Thanks again,
I'm really grateful for everyone being so helpful with everything!

Would the cycle be aided if I were to empty my pwc water from the goldfish into the larger tank...?

Nope. Beneficial bacteria live almost exclusively on the surfaces in your tank rather than in the water itself. Therefore, moving the water itself won't have any positive effects on the cycle. Plus, used tank water is full of particulate waste (bad) and nitrate (also bad).

As for the cherry shrimp in the 10g after the goldies are moved: hopefully the cycling article should clear that up, too. Basically, it boils down to whether or not you're going to keep the filter that's currently on the tank or replace it with a sponge filter. If you replace it entirely you'd probably have to re-cycle the tank. Personally, I'd make a sponge pre-filter to cover the intake of your HOB so that you could add shrimp immediately after moving the goldfish rather than worrying about recycling the tank (especially since shrimp are so sensitive to ammonia and nitrite).

Would the cycle be aided if I were to empty my pwc water from the goldfish into the larger tank...?

Nope. Beneficial bacteria live almost exclusively on the surfaces in your tank rather than in the water itself. Therefore, moving the water itself won't have any positive effects on the cycle. Plus, used tank water is full of particulate waste (bad) and nitrate (also bad).

As for the cherry shrimp in the 10g after the goldies are moved: hopefully the cycling article should clear that up, too. Basically, it boils down to whether or not you're going to keep the filter that's currently on the tank or replace it with a sponge filter. If you replace it entirely you'd probably have to re-cycle the tank. Personally, I'd make a sponge pre-filter to cover the intake of your HOB so that you could add shrimp immediately after moving the goldfish rather than worrying about recycling the tank (especially since shrimp are so sensitive to ammonia and nitrite).

The more I thought about it, I think what I'm going to end up doing is get a sponge filter for the 10 gallon, and have it in there along with the external filter, seems like hopefully the cycling process in the works now will be able to benefit both, and I want to use the current filter for the larger tank, but I'm unsure of how effective it will be, its an aqueon 10, specified for 10-20 gallons, and its pretty obvious that its overpowered for this ten gallon (my little one cookie seems to enjoy swimming in front of it and getting pushed down though, so maybe its a nice thing)

I plan on having live plants in the bigger tank, so I'm wondering if the live plants will be able to balance out the slightly small filter (as the tank would be bigger than 20 gallons, which is all the pump is rated for, 100g/h though, so it seems like maybe it could still make it)

But in the end I think it'll end up with the larger tank being cycled and monitored to be at good qater quality, the fishies will be going in there, and then I'll be monitoring the 10 gallon to make sure it seems okay with the sponge filter for a few days before I put any shrimpies in it.

Just set up the new larger tank with filter & heat and all and conditioned water and wash out you old filter media in the new tank; that's all the Beneficial bacteria you need right there.

I think the heater shouldn't be a necessity, the tankwater is a constant 71-72 degrees in the 10 gallon, and the larger tank would be going in it's place, so I'd imagine it would stay the same.
The tank only houses goldfish, so it seems like those temperatures are ideal.

I will have to get a heater for summer though I'm sure, as they like to crank the air conditioning so I'll have to be prepared!

And as for the new tank, you really think I could just plop a new filter in there, wash the old filter into it and be able to have everything balanced for the new fish just like that?

It seems like going to a tank 3-6 times the size of this one would need more bacteria to populate to keep up with it.

I think you'll need more filtration than just a 10g filter. Goldfish really are quite messy so an Aqueon 10 simply isn't going to get the job done on the bigger tank. If you move it to the bigger tank right when you move the fish it'll be able to handle their immediate bioload but as they grow it won't be able to keep up. I'd slap a second power filter on there for sure.

I'm not sure plants will be a possibility with your goldfish as the fish will munch on them.

I think you'll need more filtration than just a 10g filter. Goldfish really are quite messy so an Aqueon 10 simply isn't going to get the job done on the bigger tank. If you move it to the bigger tank right when you move the fish it'll be able to handle their immediate bioload but as they grow it won't be able to keep up. I'd slap a second power filter on there for sure.

I'm not sure plants will be a possibility with your goldfish as the fish will munch on them.

The filter itself is an Aqueon ten, but its rated for 10-20 gallons, and it actually make alot of pressure in this one, it seems like its much too powerful for the small tank, and the tank I get will probably end up being 35 gallons or less, so I'm hoping the aqueon I have will be enough to handle it, since it will only be slightly underpowered for the tank, but I'm likely to get a second one anyways, if I was going to start a second tank, does it seem like it might work decently for cycling if I were to put the fake plants, decorations, filter, water, and fish from this tank all in it togetheralong with enough new dechlorinated water to fill the tank the rest of the way after this tank is done cycling?

I won't be able to keep this gravel in there, but I'm curious if it seems like putting the decorations and filter in the new tank might be enough to have the new tank be almost ideal from the start.

Well I wouldn't bother with moving the water. As I said, there are very few bacteria actually living in the water so that's not really necessary.

But yeah, if you get this 10g tank completely cycled, theoretically the bacteria living in the tank (filter, decor, substrate, etc.) should be enough to handle the bioload of the fish at that moment in time, so moving as much of these things as possible to the new tank is going to bring the bacteria along for the ride and the tank should be able to handle the bioload with no problem. You'll still want to monitor ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels after the move just in case you do get some spikes. As the fish grow in the larger tank their bioload is going to increase though and I really don't think an Aqueon 10 is going to be enough to handle six goldfish in a 25-30g tank. If the high flow from more filtration is really a concern you can always do a DIY flow diverter but common goldfish shouldn't be stressed by some decent water flow.

I think the heater shouldn't be a necessity, the tankwater is a constant 71-72 degrees in the 10 gallon, and the larger tank would be going in it's place, so I'd imagine it would stay the same.
The tank only houses goldfish, so it seems like those temperatures are ideal.

I will have to get a heater for summer though I'm sure, as they like to crank the air conditioning so I'll have to be prepared!

And as for the new tank, you really think I could just plop a new filter in there, wash the old filter into it and be able to have everything balanced for the new fish just like that?

It seems like going to a tank 3-6 times the size of this one would need more bacteria to populate to keep up with it.

Didn't know what you were gonna house there so no heater then. But why do you say to get a heater for the summer time that makes no sense to me?
Yup I "cycled" all my tanks big & small that way except for the 1st set up obviously and it worked just fine; I wash out all the old filter gunk in the new set up; let it sit with the filter running for a day or two check mt readings and start adding fish bit by bit. But also all my tanks are pretty well planted which of cause influences the readings to not go up.
Do you need a large filter, like a canister?

Didn't know what you were gonna house there so no heater then. But why do you say to get a heater for the summer time that makes no sense to me?
Yup I "cycled" all my tanks big & small that way except for the 1st set up obviously and it worked just fine; I wash out all the old filter gunk in the new set up; let it sit with the filter running for a day or two check mt readings and start adding fish bit by bit. But also all my tanks are pretty well planted which of cause influences the readings to not go up.
Do you need a large filter, like a canister?

Well, the heater ironically would only be needed for summer as they tend to crank the ac in the house, so my room would drop from the 70-74 it is now, to 65-68 during the summer, so if I could have a heater to keep the tank at normal room temperature it would seem like a good idea.

It looks like all of these plans are changing though, as its been advised in another thread of mine about cycling that cycling a 10g or even whenever I get my larger tank with this many goldfish will be next to impossible, and I hate to torture these guys more than I've already done, and as attatched to them as I am, it's not worth hurting them to keep them in my opinion, so it looks like I'll be bringing them to a store for re-homing and continuing this cycle fishless.