“All in all”, the Mack’s clone yesterday did taste like a Mack’s pizza when everything was taken into consideration, but one small thing that just wasn’t exactly right. I was satisfied though with the results of the Mack’s clone attempt.

The Mack’s clone dough ball did opened very well and could be tossed and twirled. Steve mixed the Classico heavy tomato puree with oregano (about 1 tablespoon) for a half of a can and also added a little bit of regular pepper. No extra salt was added. The Classico heavy tomato puree is thicker than their other products. Steve added a little water to thin it down some. When tasting the Classico sauce with added regular oregano and pepper it did taste like Mack’s sauce. 7 ½ ounces of sauce was used on the pizza and 10 ½ ounces of the Nasonville mild cheddar was used. It can be seen how the Nasonville mild cheddar kind of wanted to stick together some after being grated and while placing it on the pizza two times. I couldn’t find my right tip for my plastic squeeze bottle, but the one I found worked out okay.

The Mack’s clone pizza baked fairly well in the oven with not a lot of oven spring. The Mack’s clone attempt did have almost all the same attributes in the crust. The fresh baked slices did stand out like a Mack’s pizza, the crust was sort of crispy with some characteristics of being crackery, the crumb rim was very tender like a Mack’s pizza with a little crisp edge. Steve and I thought the crust tasted very good, even if it didn’t have a lot of oven spring.

The Classico heavy tomato puree when baked on the pizza did almost tastes like the Gangi sauce that is used on a Mack’s pizza. At least when using the Classico heavy tomato puree (with added oregano and pepper) the taste is very close when baked on the pizza.

The Nasonville medium white cheddar even if it was aged about 3 months didn’t really change in flavor a lot though (when tasted plain and on the Mack’s attempt). I had thought that the Nasonville medium white cheddar might change in taste if it was aged about 3 months in the fridge. It now makes me curious if maybe Nasonville does produce a different Nasonville cheddar just for food service businesses. I know I talked to who is supposedly the distributor to Mack’s and Manco & Manco and they told me that they age the Nasonville cheddar for up to 3 months for Mack’s and Manco & Manco. Since I did age the Nasonville cheddar for almost 3 months that is what makes me curious about a food service Nasonville cheddar. I did purchase a 42.90 lb. block of Nasonville cheddar from Bova Foods at Reply 48 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13499.msg188162.html#msg188162 and at Reply 50 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13499.msg188178.html#msg188178 and the following posts. That Nasonville cheddar didn’t have the tang to the cheese. Yesterday there was a little bit of tang, but not quite enough.

Trenton Bill invited me to his home for sometime this spring and if I go we will taste Trenton pizzas and we might also go to the distributor that is supposedly Mack’s and Manco and Manco distributor. We might even go to Maruga’s if Sandy didn’t do too much damage to them. http://www.marucaspizza.com/ Only after maybe trying another big block of Nasonville cheddar from who is supposedly the distributor for Mack’s and Manco & Manco may I finally find out if the Nasonville cheddar is the same as the Nasonville cheddar I purchased in smaller packages and if the aging process changes anything.

If anyone is interested in seeing the video of Maruga’s boardwalk style pizza this is the video.

I still have the old pouring pot that Trenton Bill gave me that they used at Maruga’s. For some reason my volume on my computer won’t go up enough to hear how much of their proprietary cheese blend they use. I also can’t pick up most of what is being said in that video. If someone can hear it would they please let me know what was being said, especially about the amount of proprietary cheese they use.

I might even call Papa Dino’s and see if they might tell me what brand of cheddar they are purchasing in big blocks. I could tell them that I am making Detroit style pizza and would like to try the brand of cheddar they are using for my Detroit style pizzas. Their cheddar does taste like Mack’s cheese. At least it couldn’t hurt to ask.

Last week on my attempt for a Mack’s clone I had used the formulation I had posted at Reply 1194 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg201863.html#msg201863 and only changed the IDY amount (upped it a little to 0.50%), dropped the amount of sugar a little (to 1.0%) and changed the bowl residue compensation (upped it by 1%). I kept the same TF. What I am trying to figure out is why the flour amount is so different (not near as high) when I figured out the basically the same formulation on the expanded dough calculation tool.

This is a picture of the bottom of my print out sheet from last week. I am wondering what might have caused the fairly big difference in the flour amount.

I might try another Mack’s attempt tomorrow using the same formulation as last week.

Last week on my attempt for a Mack’s clone I had used the formulation I had posted at Reply 1194 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg201863.html#msg201863 and only changed the IDY amount (upped it a little to 0.50%), dropped the amount of sugar a little (to 1.0%) and changed the bowl residue compensation (upped it by 1%). I kept the same TF. What I am trying to figure out is why the flour amount is so different (not near as high) when I figured out the basically the same formulation on the expanded dough calculation tool.

Norma,

What you posted for your latest dough formulation is for a 16" pizza, whereas the dough formulation set forth in Reply 1194 referenced above is for an 18" pizza. If you make your latest changes in yeast, oil and sugar and the bowl residue compensation, the final dough formulation for the 16" size becomes as follows:

What you posted for your latest dough formulation is for a 16" pizza, whereas the dough formulation set forth in Reply 1194 referenced above is for an 18" pizza. If you make your latest changes in yeast, oil and sugar and the bowl residue compensation, the final dough formulation for the 18" size becomes as follows:

As you can see, the difference in flour quantity is slight, and most of the increase is due more to the increase in the bowl residue compensation than the changes to the yeast and sugar quantities.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for figuring out where I went wrong last week. I see there is only a small difference in the flour amounts from what you posted. I guess I am used to entering the desired pizza size as 16” for my Lehmann dough pizzas that is what I did last week in the expanded dough calculation tool. I really wanted to make a 18” pizza with the formulation I posted last week. No wonder the pizza was so thin when I stretched the dough last week. I checked again on the print out sheet and I did put 16” in the desired pizza size last week. Maybe I also need better glasses to really know what I am doing. I just did the calculations again for an 18” pizza so now I think the formulation is okay.

I looked at my print out sheet from last week this morning and couldn’t figure out what I did wrong. I didn’t even think to check the pizza size until a little while ago.

The Mack’s attempt turned out well later yesterday. Steve and I used the extra left-over Classico Tomato product and Steve did season it with oregano and pepper again. The dough ball sat out for over 2 ½ hrs. before it was opened. The dough ball was really pressed on before opening it, but for some reason it still wanted to develop some oven spring on the rim (which was gotten rid of some with the bubble popper while it first baked). I don’t know why that crust wanted to still develop some oven spring, even after all that pressing. Using the Classico Tomato product almost tasted like the Gangi Sauce that Mack’s uses. The skin could be tossed and twirled easily.

There was one standholder that came to my stand shortly after the Mack’s attempt was baked. She asked what kind of pizza the Mack’s attempt was. Steve and I told her it was a Mack’s experiment. She said it looked like a Grotto’s pizza. I told her that it tasted something like a Grotto’s pizza. She then said that Grotto’s is her favorite pizza. She tasted a slice and said it tasted just like Grotto’s pizza. She later came back for another slice for her friend and said she wanted to purchase a whole pizza next week just like we tried. One of my later customers came by with a joke and I knew he like Mack’s pizza. All he said while looking into the revolving pizza display case was Mack’s pizza. I laughed and said I did try a Mack’s attempt. Of course he then wanted to also try a slice. He said the slice tasted almost like a Mack’s pizza and was very good. I only had one slice leftover to take home to my daughter. She got home late last evening after working a double shift at work because she is going to be going on a business trip later this week to Macon, Georgia. I told her I brought her a Mack’s attempt slice home. She reheated it and said it did taste like a Mack’s pizza and asked me why I didn’t bring another slice home for her to eat.

The 3 changes I would like with this pizza is to get a little more bottom crust browning and a little more crispness in the bottom crust, but I am not sure how to go about that, unless I try a little longer bake. The crust did taste very good though and might be okay as it was. The only 2nd change would be to find something like Gangi sauce. I am not sure whether that might be trying the Escalon Bonta Extra-Heavy Tomato Puree or the Escalon Bonta Fancy Tomato Sauce. I also really don’t know where to locate them in my area. I am not sure which of the above Escalon products would taste like the Classico product we tried yesterday. The 3rd change would be to get rid of those bubbles while the crust is starting to bake.

I might think of trying to change my pizzas to my Mack’s attempt yesterday if I can locate a similar tomato product. I also might make a bigger batch of Mack’s clone dough at market next Monday to see what my customers think. I know many people in my area do like either Mack’s, Manco and Manco and Grotto’s pizza. I am not sure if customers like the Mack’s clone pizza what I would call them either. All I can think of is NJ boardwalk pizzas. If I would decide to do this pizza all the time, I need to get another 18” pizza peel. My one side of my pizza peel is broken off a little. I did look at the webrestaurant store the last few times I was there and they don’t have the thin wooden 18” pizza peels. I would also have to use the Marucas stainless steel pot Trenton Bill gave me to apply the sauce because I sure don’t have a hose.

If I do decide to try this type of at market all the time I guess I should start a new thread.

The 3 changes I would like with this pizza is to get a little more bottom crust browning and a little more crispness in the bottom crust, but I am not sure how to go about that, unless I try a little longer bake. The crust did taste very good though and might be okay as it was. The only 2nd change would be to find something like Gangi sauce. I am not sure whether that might be trying the Escalon Bonta Extra-Heavy Tomato Puree or the Escalon Bonta Fancy Tomato Sauce. I also really don’t know where to locate them in my area. I am not sure which of the above Escalon products would taste like the Classico product we tried yesterday. The 3rd change would be to get rid of those bubbles while the crust is starting to bake.

Norma,

Since you cut back on the sugar by 0.50%, you might go back to 1.5% again to see if that helps with the bottom crust coloration. You might also reduce the amount of oil by 0.50% to see if that helps make the crust a bit crispier. I would imagine that it is still pretty cold in Manheim, PA but you might consider a shorter temper time if it is not quite as cold where your stand is located. Sometimes a long temper time, especially if there is a fair amount of yeast in the dough, will cause the dough to ferment more and develop a fair amount of carbon dioxide gas. That can sometimes lead to a larger rim and bubbling in the crust.

Is there any chance that you can get the nutrition information for the Gangi tomatoes? That could be useful to determine the closest counterpart from Stanislaus or Escalon.

Norma,Since you say that your customers like/recognize the Macks, Manco's et.al. style of pizza I believe I would run with that too. It is very distinguishable and sticks out of the crowd with that crazy, tempting swirl of sauce on it's top. I believe they are probably less expensive for you to make too, correct?Anyway, your calling them "Boardwalk Style Pizza" sounds about right to me. I know you still have a couple details to smooth out in order to bring this to market...good luck!Bob

Since you cut back on the sugar by 0.50%, you might go back to 1.5% again to see if that helps with the bottom crust coloration. You might also reduce the amount of oil by 0.50% to see if that helps make the crust a bit crispier. I would imagine that it is still pretty cold in Manheim, PA but you might consider a shorter temper time if it is not quite as cold where your stand is located. Sometimes a long temper time, especially if there is a fair amount of yeast in the dough, will cause the dough to ferment more and develop a fair amount of carbon dioxide gas. That can sometimes lead to a larger rim and bubbling in the crust.

Is there any chance that you can get the nutrition information for the Gangi tomatoes? That could be useful to determine the closest counterpart from Stanislaus or Escalon.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for your recommendations to try 1.5% sugar again for better bottom crust browning. I appreciate you also recommended that I try to reduce the oil amount to 0.50% to see if that make the bottom crust a bit crisper. The bottom crust was crisp when cut, but not exactly enough. If I reduce the oil amount to 0.50% again do I need to do anything to the hydration? It is still cold where my stand is located. Maybe I left the dough ball warm-up too long at market yesterday, but I was busy doing other things so I couldn‘t get to that dough ball when I wanted to. I can try a shorter warm-up time. Thanks for telling me that the longer temper time will cause the dough to ferment more and develop a fair amount of carbon dioxide gas that can sometimes lead to a larger rim and bubbling in the crust.

I had forgotten who I talked to about the Gangi Supreme Heavy Duty pizza sauce awhile ago. I searched this thread and at Reply 53 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg96120.html#msg96120 I found out about Morningstar again http://morningstarco.com/index.cgi . I called them and that company is only an industrial seller of the Gangi products in drums and larger amounts. They directed me to Pacific Coast Producers http://pcoastp.com/ that then directed me to a broker in Phila. The broker then told me of a foodservice distributor in Collegeville, Pa., which is probably closer to me in Pa. than Bova Foods. I called the foodservice distributor in Collegeville, Pa. and anytime I can get there he said I can purchase just one case or more of the Gangi Supreme Heavy Duty pizza sauce to see if my customers will like boardwalk style pizzas. What I also found out from the broker in Philly I thought also was kind of strange. He said that Bova had recently purchased the Gangi Supreme Heavy Duty pizza sauce again and then branded it under the Bova name. What strange things that can be found out just by talking to different foodservice people. The broker is going to send me sample cans of Gangi Supreme Heavy Duty pizza sauce and also a can of Paradiso pizza sauce that has fresh basil added like the Saporito does. The Paradiso pizza sauce is new. The lady at Pacific Coast Producers said she would send me the Nutrition Facts for the Gangi Supreme Heavy Duty pizza sauce. I also found out from the broker that the old industry name for the Gangi Supreme Heavy Duty pizza sauce is “SUP 40”.

Norma,Since you say that your customers like/recognize the Macks, Manco's et.al. style of pizza I believe I would run with that too. It is very distinguishable and sticks out of the crowd with that crazy, tempting swirl of sauce on it's top. I believe they are probably less expensive for you to make too, correct?Anyway, your calling them "Boardwalk Style Pizza" sounds about right to me. I know you still have a couple details to smooth out in order to bring this to market...good luck!Bob

Bob,

Yes, some of my customers do really like/recognize the boardwalk style of pizzas. Some customers have been asking me to try to make them for a long while. I really haven’t priced everything, but I believe they would be a little cheaper for me to produce that what I am doing now, expect if I have to travel more to pick up the Gangi sauce.

Thanks for saying you think “Boardwalk Style Pizza” would be a good name to call the new pizza if everything works out okay.

I know this type of pizza is one of my favorites since I was a child. Now it just to see if my customers think the same thing. There are so many pizza businesses in my area that offer regular NY style pizzas.

If I reduce the oil amount to 0.50% again do I need to do anything to the hydration?

My suggestion was to reduce the amount of oil "by" 0.50%, not "to" 0.50%. So, the amount of oil should be 2% instead of 2.5%. If the reduction works but still not quite good enough, then you can consider a further reduction later. For now, for the small reduction in the amount of oil, I do not see any need to change the hydration value.

The broker is going to send me sample cans of Gangi Supreme Heavy Duty pizza sauce and also a can of Paradiso pizza sauce that has fresh basil added like the Saporito does. The Paradiso pizza sauce is new. The lady at Pacific Coast Producers said she would send me the Nutrition Facts for the Gangi Supreme Heavy Duty pizza sauce. I also found out from the broker that the old industry name for the Gangi Supreme Heavy Duty pizza sauce is “SUP 40”.

That is very good news on the Gangi pizza sauce. Will that pizza sauce be what Mack's has been using, or will it be a different product? I am also anxious to see that Nutrition Facts.