IRE Asks: Do you consider the balance system real-time or turn-based combat?

Wikipedia has an article titled "Time-keeping systems in games" which attempts to break down the sub-genres of MMO combat systems. It suggests that, while real-time combat allows players to act at any moment, turn-based combat gives players time to plan their next attack. It then lists several hybrids of real-time and turn-based, but none of the definitions really match what Iron Realms combat feels like.

In Iron Realms games, the combat is happening fast and in real-time, but there is a waiting time between your attacks; a few seconds for your character to "regain balance", like a spell cooldown for every action. It creates a situation where your opponent can time your attacks and capitalize on any mistakes you make by using your balance against you. It could be argued that while Iron Realms uses mostly real-time combat, the balance system adds a certain layer of turn-based since you are waiting for your next attack, especially in PvE.

What do you think, IRE fans? Does Iron Realms fit any of Wikipedia's combat-system definitions, or do we bring an entirely unique flavor to MMO combat?

This. Lots of 3D MMOs now have WoW's hotkey skills/spells, and most have cooldowns, but that just keeps you from immediately reusing that specific spell; there's usually not much to stop you from back-to-back using spells forever, as long as your mana holds out or whatever system is used. In IRE games, you can't really do much of anything until you regain balance, so it's like a bit of a forced delay--which is GOOD, because it means combat results are dependent on more skill than typing ability or macros.

Really, the balance system reminds me of Final Fantasy IV's Active Time Battle more than anything else. It's not immediate, but the world doesn't pause while you select a skill to use, either. You sort of get used to the pace of combat and can start to use it to your advantage, or your opponent can.

Yes, the standard Final Fantasy timer (also found in the underrated Anacronox) is a good comparison. That system is certainly real-time, however, since a turn-based system implies a halting of time between moves. Under an active timer system such as Achaea's (and other IRE games), the world continues to run at a normal pace with an imposed restriction on character actions.

Turns are, by definition, a state where the opponent can't really do anything. In this it's completely possible for both sides to act at the same time. Also, every action in ANY game has a certain rate of performance... If you could do it just willy-nilly than it'd be a "Hey, who can mash ENTER faster?" contest.

This. For so many reasons. The biggest being that balance/equilibrium 'cooldown'/'get back' time does NOT mean you are necessarily going in an A -> B - > A -> B pattern. It can vary to incredible amounts based off of afflictions/damange/clotting/use of defensive not offensive skills.

This doesn't mean that, at its most basic levels, it doesn't sort of remind me of turn based - however it just has more variation and freedom.

I think it seems like a mixture because it is text based. If you had the graphics of someone drawing a bow and firing on swinging a sword, it would not seem as if there was a cooldown time but because it is text and timestamped and not as visual, it probably seems more turn absed to me.

I see no real question about the matter -- IRE games are decidedly real-time by any measure as far as I'm concerned.

The balance system is a necessary and very realistic limitation. If you and I were to fight in the real world, I would not punch, then wait for you to retaliate, then -- but only on my next turn -- strike again.

Likewise, I could not punch you at the rate of 1000-3000 times per second -- the consequence of NOT limiting action by balances (since if there were no balance OR ticks/rounds OR turns, I could do whatever I wanted to as quickly and as often as I could script it and my CPU and the IRE server could process it).

Nope, no question -- IRE games are beautifully and unequivocally real-time.

I was going to write out a lengthier response, but this captures it nicely.Two other ways of phrasing it:

There is no "I do something, then you do something" or "we both do one thing before one of us does two things" dynamic, or anything that dictates the timing of one person's actions based on the other person's actions.

The balance timer in IREs serves to segregate actions, but those actions can occur at any time; hence, real time.

It's definitely real-time in that sense - and particularly in Achaea's Knight-class 'duality' skill where your 'balance' improves in some sense since you're now able to swing twice in the same amount of time (or more accurately, swing two swords at one time).

However, it seems to be somewhat turn-based in the sense that regardless of what level you are, the balance time is essentially the same. You'd think a Level 100 spellcaster would be able to cast certain basic spells much faster than, say, a level 20 spellcaster.

I too cannot see the 'turn based' element in the combat system at all. It's as real time as they come. In fact, I am not even sure I have ever seen a real time game that doesn't have a cool down of some sort.

Iron-Realms games are real-time. Having what amounts to a cool-down on a spell or action does not, in any fashion, make it turn-based. WoW is much the same - real-time, with cooldowns. This form of gameplay addresses the shortcomings of pure real-time, without introducing any turn-based activity, or anything of the sort.

Haven't played WoW, but doesn't it (like Everquest, Diku-derivatives, and many other games) use the "press a kill button, wait for the enemy to die" type mechanic (whereby you press "kill" and it keeps executing the action over and over on a timer)?

If not -- and you really do have to continuously select and execute attacks/spells/actions-in-general -- I may be cranking up a WoW account....

The previous poster was particularly speaking about skills in WoW. Skills are activated and then have a cooldown before they can be activated again. Base attack is click once, keep attacking.

However, I think the more apt comparison is in DPS on your base attack. I agree that IRE games are realtime. I view balance and equilibrium as DPS mechanics. WoW (and GW, and EQ, and...) have the same concept typically associated to weapon speed and damage. If those are considered realtime, I would think any IRE game would have to be as well.

City of Heroes/City of Villains does that. You have to nail your attack chain down so that you can constantly attack, queing up the next one so that the attack animations are the only wait between attacks

Which brings another point to mind: IRE games don't have animations, so I kind of see balance as an equivilant to waiting for an animation to finish.

In most ABS RPGs you have a set amount of time before you can make a move. If you don't decide or have a move ready the opponent will go ahead and attack. These system were quite common in JRPGs back in the 16-bit era as they allowed a simulation of real time combat.

ABS systems are neither true real time or turn based but rather a hybrid of the two. IRE games use this same type of system.

Except the idea that came to mind first was Final Fantasy XIII, with their ATB system. (ATB being Active Time Battle. Its been going around in the Final Fantasy series since FFVII)

Basically, when you weren't doing an action, a guage would fill up, with five segments. (Only gain five near the end of the game, at the beginning you start with two) Each segment could be used to perform an action. You would select a series of commands, and when you were ready you would execute them, and you would perform as many actions as you had segments filled.

This, in a way reminds me of the Monk's balance system.

As a response to a different post, I would call the system Real time combat, with MAJOR turn based elements. Because, to be honest I would call the combats turn based, but they are set in real time. So someone could walk in during your balance regaining time and hit you, etc.

[Oh, and on a completly unrelated theme, can the people who post one word answers, or comments that make no sense at all simply for the bound credit buck up their ideas? Everybody loves the bound credit promotion, but most people can actually contribute to the post. As, no doubt IRE are reading through these posts, seeing if there is anything that they can do to improve their games, and if they see that the bound credit promotion isn't getting them worthy contributions, they might withdraw it all together. Rant over!]

while most abilities require balance, equilibrium, or both, some require none at all. At any given time, you are taking some sort of offensive or defensive action. Also, since you can alter your opponents eq or bal with various afflictions, you can make multiple attacks before they are able to act, eliminating the whole idea of "turn based".

It's real time. If it weren't we would literally have to end a turn, like in turn based strategy games. Then our opponent would get a turn. But, as it is, it all just depends on strategy. Basing balance based attacks again damage done to opponent, etc.

It is realtime, with the balance as a "filter". It is very similar to the ABS in FFVII. I'd rather have it turn-based. In this way bought combat "systems" would be less crucial. I am doing all by myself and it is quite time consuming. So I am going to suck at it until I become dragon, then I will have a few words with someone.

You can die at the hands of an (hypothetical) unlimited number of enemies or monsters. They don't all have to wait for you to take your turn. Also, some things that incite conflict (cause damage) are systemic attacks instead of player-driven (like totems or forest defenses).

Depends on the game I suppose. Like Civ, I do like the turn based, since there're a LOT of different fronts to fight on at once..while Sins of a Solar Empire omg...real time, multifront conquoring of star systems...ugh. Especially with how that AI cheats like hell..

its definitely real-time, in every sense of the word. If I were to stand there and stare at my opponent without doing anything, they would certainly not just stop attacking me. Just because there is a delay between my attacks does not make it turn based. not even a little bit.

although, as far as I remember ABS was a little bit more forgiving than Achaea, in particular. Achaea is hardcore, that's why I love it. In recent time, Darksouls was released for all the major consoles. They claimed it was a hardcore game, and I am sure it is. I checked the gameplays on youtube, but Achaea is much more hardcore. The log scrolls so fast that I have to put so much marker just to survive and see what is happening. Excellent game, in all aspects.

Your recovery time is based on your charisma. If you have 12 CHA, you have to hit them again almost instantly as soon as you get your balance or you will be hit. Which is easy enough to do with the most rudimentary triggers. If your charisma is less than that though, you will get hit. Just about every race has at least 12 charisma, or a way to boost up that high.

While the system does allow you a little bit of planning in what will happen next it does not stop all action while you decide. If your opponents balance isn't exactly the same as yours then it can't truly be turn based.

Having a cooldown is just a way of making the player choose how to devote their time. Unlike turn-based, where all actions have the same time cost, real-time means that both players must choose varying time costs simultaneously.

We take turns writing better offensive/defensive scripts, and then we fight in real-time. The balance-based combat doesn't make it turn-based. It's just a limiting factor in the real-time flow of everything.

real time -> combat is cooldown based like every other mmo; balance is a cooldown before you can attack again. Even fps games have a rate of fire and thus cooldown for individual bullets or weapon swapping

I suppose it depends on what you mean by being off balance, but being off balance in one sense often doesn't prevent acting in other ways.

Yes, moving requires balance and equilibrium, but what about healing? You have your potion balance, herb balance etc. that can all be used independantly, regardless of other balances that you may not currently be able to use, and don't prevent you from doing other things.

Yes, If you happen to be off every single form of balance at once, then you can't do anything. But does that really make it turn based?

As Syncrisis put it, it's the ABS used in several RPGs. Play any IRE game, followed by a game using ABS, like Final Fantasy 8, and the biggest difference you'll find in combat is the ability to run around during in IRE versus not in FF8. The way I see it, mix the linear-motion system from games like Star Ocean and Tales of Symphonia, and the ABS from Final Fantasy 8 and you have the IRE system! Essentially.

Real time vs turn-based becomes much easier to classify when you remember that it isn't just about individual player actions, but the combat scenario as a whole. The core tenet of turn-based scenarios is that the state of play does not and can not change while you are planning and selecting actions on your turn. This is why even the ABS games are turn-based. In real-time, the state of the game can and often does change while you are planning and executing your actions. Regardless of what state you (or your opponent) is in, regardless of what action you are currently executing (or not), on the IRE games a third party can (and often does) enter combat and initiate actions against you at ANY time. That's as real-time as it gets.

It's similar to some of the Final Fantasy games, where every character has a timer until they may act, but other characters/monsters can act freely in that time. If you don't act, then it's just generally to your detriment.

How is it turn-based in any way? Haha. If you don't attack back it doesn't mean your opponent will stop hitting you. There is no, "Hey.. Wait! It's MY turn!". It's attack whenever you possibly can, which to me and I think everyone else is completely real time.

I would say a bit of both as its a bit real time and part of it is turn based. Sort of like a few PS games I played where you see the character waiting afte a attack but he can move around and dodge while waiting too.

It has nothing to do with turns, the way other games have turns. Like in real life you need a certain amount of time to raise your sword back above your head and bring it down again, or get any other weapon back into position.

I consider the balance system real-time, since an attacker has to recover from their last move and prepare for another attack in real life as well. It's not the equivalent of allowing the other player to use their "turn."

I didn't have time to read the Wikipedia article, but I don't see how and by what definition can anyone say that combat in Achaea is 'turn based'.

Chess is the 'turn based' game, where you actually cannot make your move until your opponent has done his turn. 'Turn based' game is when the players take turns for their moves. How would that apply to combat in Achaea?

'Real time' is not the same as 'instantenous' occurance; attacks do not need to be completed one after another without any perceptible delay, to be 'real time' attacks.

I don't think it can fit fully into either of the two completely. Even though you dont' have to wait for your opponent to "finish" his move before you begin yours, you do have to wait an allotted time before you can go again. It is, as Tyehr said though, it is definately not "turn based" like chess. Kinda best of both worlds maybe.

Definitely real time... turn-based to me means being able to leisurely take your time after each move to plan your next ... not the case here with text flying off the screen as fast as it appears! I have gotten a lot better at reading solely for relevant context now as a result. :)

i would have to say it is a mixture of both because there are so many types of balances that are interdependent or independent of each other that while you have to wait for one balance to come back for some things you are still able to do others. alchemists have their homunculus on a separate balance than other skills, or a knight is able to use arc off of balance

Real time with a focus on recovery time (some atomic actions require set-up time, but these are rare unless you count things like Aeon). It's little different than the delay between shooting in a FPS. Of course, Achaea (at the least) complicates matters a bit more by having several distinct recovery times for different kinds of actions (balance/equilibrium, herbs, salves, etc.)

Real time, no doubt. It does take real time to return the sword back to position in order to swing it again. It does take real time to swallow the potion and take another sip. It does take real time to apply a salve to a limb, take more from a vial and apply it to another one.

All this has nothing to do with the actions of our opponent, it's totally unrelated to his actions. In a turn based game, our balance would be related to the actions of the oponent, which clearly it is not now.

As much as I sometimes wish IRE games were turn based I can't seem to percieve time as slowed . Even Midkemia Online, which is apparently the slowest due to its windup before being hit is too fast for me to comprehend what I'm being hit with and what I should be hitting the other person with. This is why most people have systems, because comprehending everything that's going on is a bit much.

Then there are people, who aren't me, who have skill. That's another topic entirely.

Definately a hybrid of the two. In reality you would have balance issues which could be sped up by training just like in the game. So turn based more on reality. However a graphic game that works off an even more restrictive system is not considered turn based so maybe its not?

I'd call it what I call the Final Fantasy systems was before FF IX, it's a turn-based system based upon a speed factor, you take turns hitting each other, but if you gain balance faster than your opponent, your gonna hit more often, which I am Citing the Shaman's swiftcurse ability combined with bleed in regards to something like this, but two chars who are equal in the speed of balance regain in any way would generally be turn-based, since it'd be left hit, then right hit, with left being a player, and right being a player, it's just a fact of how my pown perceptions are.

as real as it can get, if not people would just spam the same attack a million times killing everything instantly, teh balance gives a more real tuch granted in real life you do need to take a moments to for example punch again after you punched someone