Wichita NBC affiliate KSHB-TV is reporting that the suspect being held in the assassination of Dr. George Tiller is a man named Scott Roeder. Posters in the forums at the DemocraticUnderground have identified at least one posting at Operation Rescue’s website (currently down, link to Google cache here) that’s written by a Scott Roeder and refers to Dr. Tiller.

The information currently available strongly suggests that this Scott Roeder is exactly the kind of radical right-wing extremist that was discussed in a recent Homeland Security report – you remember that report, right? It’s the one that various semi-mainstream conservatives got all self-righteously irate over a couple of months ago.

Update (semi-): I’ve got some additional thoughts on the matter, including the question of how much (if any) responsibility the broader anti-abortion movement shares with the gunman, here.

Comments

I know what’s coming… all the liberals and pro-choice people now have their “case” to back up their belief that all pro-life and/or conservative and/or Republican and/or Christian people have the same mindset of Roeder or that they are extremists or terrorists. They will stereotype them all based on this one man.

There have been MANY people in this world who were affiliated with some sort of organization and then committed some crime (even murder). Just because they were a part of an organization does not mean that it is because of that organization that they chose to take a life or commit a crime.

But liberals are going to have a great time with this and use it as one more excuse to blast the “right.” They seem to live for that.

Funny, I have read more anti-choice comments on websites today complaining about how people are going to paint them as hatemongers than I have anything else. I don’t understand what they’re so concerned about; Tiller is dead, which is exactly what they wanted (and don’t act like it’s not true). Aren’t you all supposed to be happy? Death for all who don’t agree with you!

Ashleigh writes, “I know what’s coming… all the liberals and pro-choice people now have their “case” to back up their belief that all pro-life and/or conservative and/or Republican and/or Christian people have the same mindset of Roeder or that they are extremists or terrorists”

You mean the way Hannity, Beck, O’Reilly, Bush, and Limbaugh paint all men that practice Islam as extremists?

Of course not!

All Christians aren’t members of the Christian Taliban, just like all Muslim aren’t Islamo-fascists.

But what we know is that there are domestic terrorists that are Christian fundamentalists that are willing to bomb buildings, commit arson, toss acid on people, and even go to people’s places of worship and shoot them in cold blood.

Not all Christians are extremists, but they do exist here in America and they are to be feared and reviled just as much as their Islamic extremist brethren.

Ideologues and hate spewers found in ever growing numbers on our public airwaves and the internet definitely incite twisted & weak minds to acts of terror and violence. They use emotional issues like religion and patriotisnm, fear and hate, to stir the emotional pots. Often the goal of these inciters, the rabble rousers, are political or financial…rarely based on their own beliefs. They just use others.

The ones who do the deed (the pawns) are no different than the Islamic jihadists: Both think they can speak and act for God.

The Science Socialist Nazis here who believe in murdering infants after they’re born are outraged that Tiller’s death camp might now be closed.

How fitting for a national socialist evolutionary euthanasia supporting “science” blog to quote from that malicious DHS report relying on the Southern Poverty Law Center’s study that identifies the American Legion as a hate group.

I know what’s coming… all the liberals and pro-choice people now have their “case” to back up their belief that all pro-life and/or conservative and/or Republican and/or Christian people have the same mindset of Roeder or that they are extremists or terrorists. They will stereotype them all based on this one man.

Yep, and that is EXACTLY why committing violent crimes to support a philosophical position always backfires.

How can someone who invades a church service and commits a murder be either “pro-life” or religious? It is not possible.

Just like someone who blows up research clinics, or sets a bunch captive animals suddenly loose in the wild cannot be said to be considerate of the animals, much less other people.

The problem is this: when someone commits a horrible crime, that becomes the story.

The story is no longer about why people should not have abortions. The story is now about a senseless murder.

And until the murder story blows over, you won’t be able to get the discussion back on track. Sorry about that.

while this murder is sad, it is not nearly as sad to me as losing someone who stood for life. here is a man who made his living off of murdering innocent children. he made his living off of undermining the value of life. with that being said, it seems like they sure are making a big deal about this kansas man dying. sorta seems more like equality to me than anything. at least dr. killer, i mean dr. tiller, had a chance to live life. unlike all of the innocent children that he robbed that from. obviously not a very convicted Bible believing man. i doubt he was involved in his church for any other reason than being able to pull a “good guy” political card.

how can ya be giving opinions about a persons life if yall havent been through a crisis where u have to make choices that would change ur life for ever the people that would go to his clinic would go for help not just to kill their baby behind people their is alot of ignorance before u speek you should really stop and think what would you do if your son or daughter was deform and there was no possible way to change his life Dr tiller was only a person that would help u and would explain everything before making decisions his clinic would give you the choice to do what was best for u they would have good nurses and good doctors that would care for you not for your money like stupid ignorent protestants say before you speek you have to inform your self and really get your self in familys positions who are struggeling for their babies health not to kill them but for the suffer and overcome of the babies with deformations even the protestants make fun and look at kids different who have deformaties. and the last thing the person who murder Dr Tiller will pay in heaven for killing a person that was only doing his job and trying to help families who had been struggeling with their health.

We “liberals and pro-choice people” don’t need any help backing up our position. We are right. On the other hand, the over-wrought rhetoric, ceaseless harassment and oputright violence of the pro-choice only shows the lack of any legitimate, compelling argument to back there position. Extremism is the last refuge of losers.

As a christian I am appalled with how many people think this man’s murder IN CHURCH was a good thing?? Whatever happened to God being the judge? You people who are anti-abortion are not doing yourselves any favors by cheering for this murder. You are hurting your cause by siding with the violence. God is a God of Love and Justice. The doctor was operating within the law, so if you don’t agree with the law then work to change it instead of acting like terrorists with no regard for life. Even Jesus would not let his disciples rise up and fight against those who were about to crucify him, because he knew there was a better way. If you really are ‘pro-life’ the least you could do is PRETEND to respect life, because right now you look like a bunch of hateful terrorists. I urge you to re-think your strategy because it is not bringing anyone over to your side.

This guy wasn’t pro-life. He was pro-choose to kill. Than again Mr. Tiller knew he was being stalked by someone, I read that on a few articles. Tragic it had to end before he repented for killing the sons and daughters of others. My heart grieves, another lost without knowing Christ, because someone thought they had the right to take it.

Anyone who thinks that Scott Roeder, the suspected killer of Dr. Tiller, is an aberration only has to witness a morning at a Planned Parenthood clinic on a day it performs abortions or read just the letters-to-the-editor column of just about any American newspaper.

I volunteer at a Planned Parenthood clinic as a patient escort and if you’ve never witnessed the verbal abuse to which those women are subject, then you don’t know a thing about anti-abortion zealots. Their favorite words are “kill”, “murder” and their cognates. I get to listen to them every day I volunteer. But more importantly, the patients are subjected to that insulting and potentially cacophony, something to which they shouldn’t have to listen on a day that is already traumatic enough.

Pursuant to Obama’s address at Notre Dame, the Philadelphia Inquirer last week published two opinion pieces by two people on opposite sides of the abortion culture war asking them to speak to how the two sides could find common ground. The pro-choice column looked for ways to reduce unplanned pregnancies, increase the availability of women’s health care (especially to low-income populations) for both family planning and pre-natal care, and reduce the incidence of abortion. The writer’s focus was on the latter, a goal one would think both sides could agree upon. Guess what? The anti-abortion writer ignored common ground, lacing her essay with religious absolutes and frequent use of the words “kill” and “murder.” She saw no common ground and clearly wanted nothing less than the banning of all abortion and criminalizing it for those who ignored the law.

That happens to be the situation in most of Latin America and the Philippines where most politicians are in the hip pocket of the Catholic church. Guess what? The abortion rates in those countries are the highest in the world. Banning it would be as effective at reducing abortions as Prohibition was at reducing alcohol consumption. Interestingly in Western Europe abortion has been legal for a long time—and contraception, sex education, and family planning services are widely available—and those nations have the lowest abortion rates in the world.

The far right in this country is nothing more than a Christian version of the Taliban with a similarly shaped ethical creed or lack thereof.

As a pro-lifer, I was shocked when I heard the news of Tiller’s murder. I absolutely believe what he was doing in performing abortions was wrong – though I think Tiller was doing so out of misguided compassion. Regardless, it was wrong for anyone to take matters into their own hands and kill him. His killer performed the same act pro-lifers consider deplorable – killing a living person. My prayers are with Tiller’s family and for his soul.

Bravo! Let’s hear it for the Christian Taliban – those good folks who tell you they love small government – small enough to climb into women’s underpants – small enough to interfere with who you marry. What a bunch of hypocritical terrorist enablers you people are.

No one can countenance murder of anyone, no matter how evil he may be, but history shows us that those who live by the sword die by the sword. Dr Tiller aborted innocent unborn babies by means of saline solution to burn off their skin, as only one of the many despicable methods used by these doctors. Dr Tiller, as a doctor, knew that the first thing formed in a baby is the brain and spinal cord. Dr Tiller knew when he performed these abortions he was causing suffering to these babies but he didn’t care because the money loomed at the forefront of his mind. At least some good may come from this if it highlights the brutal methods used by such anti-life doctors who no longer take the Hypocratic oath to uphold life. These sort of despicable acts wouldn’t be condoned on animals so why innocent babies? The anti-abortion movement is akin to the anti-slavery movement and there are always extremists in every movement fighting for human rights.

It makes me sad that the article is using the murder of an innocent man to throw republicans/conservatives/christians under the bus based on a ridiculous homeland security report that was very ill written, instead of just reporting a tragic story of a crazy nut job who killed in the name of his so called god.

It makes me even more sad that most people who have commented have done exactly what they preach against and assume that the actions of Mr. Roeder speak on behalf of all republicans/conservatives. Thats like saying the far left (ex: the weathermen) speak on behalf of all liberals.

Nathan… Gay Fascists? Seriously? Explain to me without using Hitler as an analogy what a Fascist even is. Details, you disgusting sycophantic waste of human flesh. And try to stay on topic too. I know that’s hard for you conservatives – you’ve got sooo much you want to rant on, bitch and scream about, but TRY TO.

As for this talk of heaven and hell and an after life? Any place with you people who promote this bull shit (the killing of doctors) is hell. Even if it is the after life. Hell can be no worse than having to deal with you idiots and your monstrous, black-white doublethink duckspeak.

English doesn’t come any plainer than that. And the ones that aren’t? Well, who cares about the whore of a mother anyway, right? Jesus doesn’t like women anyway. Neither goes God. Therefore, you shouldn’t either. They can die. Horrible deaths giving birth to malformed children. Nobody’ll care, right? If they hadn’t sinned, then maybe they wouldn’t have this problem.

You people just… disgust isn’t the word. It’s not strong enough. Go to Oceania, where you’ll feel right at home.

Enigma, yes, the babies are dead because “doctors” like Dr Tiller either crushed their skulls, burnt their skin off or left them to die in a bucket, which doesn’t appear to worry anti-life people in the slightest.

“In case you aren’t aware, Late Term Abortions are the kind done when a baby is in its seventh, eighth or even ninth month of gestation. It CAN survive outside the mother, but they kill it anyway.

Here’s exactly what Dr. Tiller routinely did and what he called “late term” abortion: Doctor Tiller stuck his hand inside a mother and physically grabbed the baby by its feet. He then pulled the baby out – feet first – until just the skull remained inside the mom. Doctor Tiller then took scissors and stabbed them into the back of the baby’s skull, creating a hole. Tiller then inserted a vacuum tube into that hole and used it to suck out the baby’s brain, killing it. When the baby’s brain was out, Tiller crushed the skull, pulled the baby out and threw it in a trash can. THAT is what Dr. George Tiller did on a regular basis.

At this point, most rational people will be sick to their stomachs and will be wondering why this is even lawful. But the folks over at DailyKos and other left wing sites aren’t rational. They see nothing wrong with what I just described; they call it “a woman’s right to choose.” That is mental illness, folks. The left-wing in this country is mentally ill. They’re actually psychotic.”

A lot of anti-choicers here seem to be following the Karl Rove tactical handbook: attack, distract, smear.

Yes Nathan, yes Jennifer, yes Freida – look in your mirrors. Consider what it means when you have nothing positive or constructive, or even sympathetic, to bring to a discussion of murder and homemade terrorism in the United States. Nothing but ranting and hatred, bringing yet further disgrace and bad odor on your own cause, and religion, and nation.

If you look at America’s annual abortion rate you will see the huge American loss of life through the home terror of abortion, more than by any other home terrorism or form of terrorism Americans face – the most dangerous place for babies in America is in their mothers’ wombs.

I regret the day R v. W became the law of the land and placed this country on the road to a conflict which seems like it is going to turn violent, as it has today. Being a left-wing DEM, I have almost nothing in common with mainstream pro-lifers, but I cannot deny that their assessment of abortion and the problem it represents for America is correct.

Somehow this country has slipped into a mindset which views the status quo as normal, even desirable. Very weird. Even Margaret Sanger, champion of birth control, hero to the women and the left, and a committed atheist, thought abortion was murder and said so in her writings. Just proves that being anti-choice doesn’t have to be grounded in religious belief. I wish it was the DEM party that was anti-choice.

I worry that all the good a center-left government could do for this country is going to be swept away by the abortion issue. The DEMs need to jettison the issue from the platform and let it by settled by the states. Something’s got to give before we have more assassinations and more GOP candidates elected.

Enigma and Pierce, you can’t write a rebuttal because you both support abortion without knowing the method of abortion – look it up. Saline abortions BURN THE SKIN OF BABIES AND SUFFOCATE them in the womb – that’s what you both support. And CRUSHING THE HEADS OF BABIES – that’s what you support. I challenge you to have a look at what you’re supporting – go on to the pro life sites and find out for yourselves. There’s nothing sanitary about killing babies – have a look at the pictures.

Starting (inducing) labor and delivery in the second or third trimester of a pregnancy is done using medicines. To prevent complications, the cervix may be slowly opened (dilated) with a device called a cervical (osmotic) dilator before the induction is started. Medicines to start early labor can be:

Injected into the amniotic sac surrounding the fetus (instillation). This stops the pregnancy and starts uterine contractions. Substances injected include salt water (saline); urea, a substance produced from what is naturally found in urine and blood; or digoxin or potassium chloride, given directly to the fetus.
Inserted into the vagina to start uterine contractions and soften the cervix, which allows uterine contents to pass through the cervix. Vaginal medicines include the prostaglandins dinoprostone and misoprostol.
Injected into a vein (intravenously, or IV) to start uterine contractions. Oxytocin (Pitocin) is commonly used for this purpose.
Taking a large amount of fluid out of the amniotic sac (amniocentesis) also may be used as an induction abortion procedure.

The different medicines available for an induction abortion may be combined for effectiveness and to decrease the amount of bleeding.

An induction abortion does cause you to go through the stages of labor and delivery. Pain medicines can be used during the procedure.

You pro lifers are anything but pro life. You say you are looking out for the unborn but have no use of life after the birth. You don’t mind torturing people that you don’t agree with and reply with “well torture works so it’s ok”. You are the first to accept invading a country and killing hundreds of thousands of people because you were told that they have weapons of mass destruction. You agree with capital punishment. How is any of that pro anything but pro brutality? Than you use God to justify your brutality. You people are sickening.

After reading many of these posts on the subject of Dr. Tillers murder, I think that there needs to be some clarification on the LEGAL medical proceedures that Dr. Tiller performed in his Wichita clinic.

As far as the “late term abortions” are concerned, such proceedures were performed on women whose child would either be still born or have severe birth defects that would cause death immediately after birth. As a requirement by Kansas state law, the opinion of a second doctor is mandatory before performing the proceedure.

Dr. Tiller was charged of 19 counts of not obtainging proper authorization of a second physician. He was aquitted of all charges in a Kansas court this past March.

The right for a woman to choose to have an abortion was found to be constitutional under the 14th amendment (the right to privacy)by the Supreme Court in 1975. If this were to be overturned, it would ultimately set a precedent for the government to become involved in other aspects of health care. For example, if a policy maker believed in spiritual healing and not what most of America considers standard Western medicine, insted of receiving an angioplasty after your heart attack to save your life, we are going to pray to help you, forget proven life saving medical proceedures.

It is with great hope that the facts of the case would deter more people from engaging in irresponsible rhetoric that ultimately facilitates murder. Classic examples within some of these “eloquent” posts include but are not limited to saying that all Muslims are terrorists.

My deepest sympathies to Dr. Tiller’s family, friends and patients. He was a courageous man who will not be forgotten.

Freida @ # 42 – if I were to “go on to the pro life sites” (which I have, many times), I would be lied to just the way you have.

For (another – note comment # 41 from our host) example: the saline abortion method you describe so luridly has not been used in the United States for about 30 years. The people you find so persuasive know that, but continue to flaunt their “dead-baby” porn specifically to inflame the passions of the ignorant and easily manipulated. (I repeat: look in your mirror.)

I do not approve of ANY killing MOST people labled “right wing extremists” by that government report
agree with me,(I am labeled an “extremist” because I voted for a third party candidate!!)while some peacefully express disapproval of this doctors practices we DO NOT SUPPORT
his life being taken!! A life is a life it is not ours to take! One man comitted this crime not everyone who sides with the pro-life stance. Our country has enough drama already please everyone lets not start attacking everyone because of the action of one lawless man

It certainly is quite a hoot to see the righties around here scurrying for cover and trying to cover their tracks about as frantically as Ollie North’s secretary once did. Fact is, Roeder was a well-known member of the more militant fringes of the anti-abortionist crowd, and active member of Randall Terry’s lunatic Operation Rescue crew.

I wouldn’t be surprised if this domestic terrorist…and don’t kid yourselves for a moment into thinking he is anything but…is a member of the freerepublic.com, a website forum well-known as a haven of anti-American racist thugs.

Let these “Christians” keep talking and digging themselves deeper into a hole. Dr. Tiller was a genuine hero and his death was a tragedy. There are some very dangerous terrorists in this country, and they are not from the middle east!

No where, save blatant anti-abortion websites, can I find any description of what the fetus experiences during an induction abortion, and you can’t seem to cite any real sources that mention any apparent burning agony.

Secondly, you failed to respond to Mike. You painted this wild fantasy about Dr. Tiller putting his hands inside the woman and pulling the fetus out (I’d love to know how that flies with the woman lying there, frankly) and Mike called you on your nonsense.

Cut the sensationalism, no one here is going to be stirred. Frankly, I’d be much more impressed by your ilk if you actually gave a damn about what happened to said “child” after is was born into a household that couldn’t support it, or didn’t want it in the first place. Do we really need more unwanted, neglected children in this world? Are you going to take care of them?

Deal with that first and then we’ll talk about what’s really the kind and ethical course of action.

WOW your luckly your mom could afford you!! and you didn’t
have dr tiller inject poison in your heart at 24 weeks old
No one had any justification to kill him !!any more than he had to kill all those children!!

Your “war” is coming to an end, pro-“lifers”. A woman’s right to choose is the law of the land. We have a President who understands that and will keep it so. And now we have an AG who has dispatched US Marshalls to protect those men and women who provide vital health care to women and uphold the LAW.

Yes, Ivy, the current LAW permits over 4,000 babies in the US to be killed each day, just as the LAW once said slavery was permissible. But bad news for you Ivy, more than 50% now say they are pro life so you and Pres Obama are in the minority on that issue.

choose birth control or create a new life!
by the way for those who can’t afford birth control and have no SELF control… no worries the government will take money from someone who works for it and buy it for you!!
If you can’t remember to use.. NO problem ..it our soon to come new health plan (funded by everyone who works) will pay for individuals to rid them self of any responsibility
Here in the good old USA we wouldn’t want adults to actually assume responsibility for their actions!!

Wow Freida, way to totally twist around what I said. I do not specifically advocate poor people having abortions, I adovcate the right for each individual in each individual situation (which frankly you know nothing about) to make a choice about what’s best for themselves, their family, their world. If a woman feels that another child would only be born to suffering due to HER circumstances (economically or otherwise) and electively opts not to bring that child into the world, then I don’t think it’s for you or anyone else to tell her you know better. Likewise, it’s no one’s place to tell her she can’t have anymore children.

And once again you fail to address my primary point in favor of more BS emotionalisms. I’m not on the beaches for the whales Freida, but I DO work for an inner city non-profit that specifically works to get severely impoverished children access to food, proper clothing and health care. Many of them come from a single mother household with multiple at-home children. Many of their older brothers are in prison or otherwise in trouble with the law, many of them have fathered children by young women they no longer see. Many of their older sisters are now teenage mothers with no hope of ever finishing their educations. Many of their fathers are completely absent or abusive. Many of their mothers never had access to information about sexual health, birth control or health care while they were pregnant. Many of those mothers are either on welfare so they can stay home with their young children or working multiple minimum wage jobs that still don’t allow them to afford their kids anything other than the barest of the bare.

Do I value each and every one of these children now that they’re here? Absolutely. But again my question to you is where the hell are YOU if you so value the sanctity of life?

I said it before. You and those like you only give a damn about these kids before they have names and identities and relationships and hopes and dreams and material needs. After they’re born they’re just leeches to you who probably deserve to end up in prison.

I’m having a very difficult time feeling sorry for this baby killer and his family. What’s the saying…what goes around, comes around. Is his life more precious than the thousands that he did away with? His death was fast and pain free unlike what he did to thousands of baby’s. Burnt them with saline solution, ripped them apart, sucked their brains out… He tortured and killed many many people and now he has to answer to it.

All of you who claim to be pro life need a reality check.
There is absolutely no need for you to backpeddle and appear horrified that a baby killer got what he deserved.
If you really believe that Tiller was taking innocent lives, why claim to be outraged by the person who put the baby killer where he belongs.
If someone were to attack my children I would make no apologies for putting the guy out of his misery and I would be insulted if you berated me for doing the right thing.
Would you be upset if someone took it upoon himself to assassinate Osama Ben Ladin? Of course not. We’d probably give him a medal and a reward.

Enough wringing hands and nashing of teeth.
After todays killing, abortionists all over the country are probably thinking it’s time to get out.

kc look at the post above yours there IS Free birth control
and lots of tax $$$ spent teaching kids how to use it and where to get it FREE!! please stop with the hard luck stories these 99% of unwanted pregnancies ARE preventable!!!!!maybe the government could focus on that with all OUR $$ WE GIVE THEM!!

Scott, thank you for your comment. I could not agree with you more. What you failed to mention was the fact that this evil person was in church at the time? What a hypocrite! With his death I pray that more innocent lives will be saved.

This is the best news that I’ve heard in a long time! justice has been served. Tiller’s family did not object to the killings he did, in fact, that was their “blood money”. Now, I hope they don’t object to him being murdered.

Perhaps you’re lucky enough to live in a state where they banned abstinence only education, perhaps you’re lucky enough to live in a place where the school systems have enough time and resources to do good sexual education.

You appear to have no clue about the sheer lack of ignorance surrounding birth control. Also, with people like you running around, even if you know about birth control it’s getting harder and harder to get.

Case in point – I grew up in a very small town. When I was in college (which was about 6 years ago) I went with a friend to our tiny teen clinic because she wanted to get a depo shot. This clinic ONLY provided birth control, primarily in the form of condoms, and yet every single day there would be a bunch of old angry men picketing outside and yelling and the people who went in. Do you have any idea how scary that circumstance is for an already anxious teenage girl?

You people need to get a life. And seriously Jland, don’t go spouting off numbers and facts without any real clue about what it’s like for people who don’t live in your perfect little bubble where everyone has equal access to health care, education and opportunity.

If breaking the law and using violence (incl. terrorism) are theoretically impermissible in all circumstances in the view of secularists, then there is no reason to celebrate July 4th and the founding of this nation. It was accomplished by violent lawbreakers/terrorists who waged an illegal war against the legitimate government of the day. But because their violent rebellion succeeded, we celebrate it. In the United Kingdom, they don’t.

I have grave reservations about the killing of Dr. Tiller on Christian moral grounds, but since most of the pro-choice argument is not based on Christian moral teaching, and just popular opinion about the rule of law, let’s do away with such silly secular objections.

The Declaration of Independence states: “That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends [life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness], it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government” and “all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.”

Once these principle sanctioning violence are admitted, there are no grounds for opposing from a secular perspective the right of a segment of society to take up arms against a government or fellow citizens whose actions are considered intolerable. All the pro-choice people can say is that they want the rebellion to fail. Neither side occupies a secular moral high ground, they are just opposing sides in a civil war, one wanting to preserve the status quo and the other to overthrow or modify it.

KC, instead of taking your TEEN friend to the clinic, why didn’t you sit her down and tell her to keep her pants on. People like you are the reason that we have so many abortions, AIDS, veneral diseases, etc. If people (teen’s included) would start to keep their pants on maybe things may start turning around. Have you ever heard the word morals?

KC my mistake,your previous post said you work in the “inner city”
Wow you better write to your representatives about lack of sex education! All public schools in my area ( where I live now) have at least it basic sex education including prevention.
I grew up in a small town too, didn’t have old men picketing daily actually no planned parenthood etc..
But I really think kids now a days CAN get condoms, Heck I know they can get drugs!! I also work with teens in the detroit area and I can honestly say I haven’t met any child over the age of 12 who is clueless about birth control. I think we need to focus on accountiability with kids more
PS my world is far from perfect!!

Tiller was notorious for performing late-term abortions in instances where they were not necessary to save a woman’s life. Just youtube his name and you’ll see the news stories (mostly Fox, I’m sure). So this isn’t even about Roe v. Wade necessarily, since that only covers an abortion during the first two trimesters.

According to a report done for the British Parliament, sentience begins early in the third trimester, so by then you’re dealing with a child that has brain activity and can feel. If that is true, then late-term abortions are a question of euthanasia, a mother’s legal responsibility to her child (especially considering she has willingly carried it so far in development when she could’ve done the deed sooner–is there anything like an implied social contract in this instance? Idunno.), the question of when do inalienable rights begin, and whether the unborn is dispensable (by an act of killing and not just an act of early removal from the mother, i.e. C-Section) for particular or even non-particular reasons. Also, possibly, an issue of rights for the mentally disabled if a late-term is performed because of a birth-defect.

As for should pro-lifers and anti-abortionists find this to be justice: Pro-lifers are against all killing, so the Catholics and their friends are dogmatically prohibited from being elated at the recent murder of Tillers. Anti-abortionists who aren’t pacifists, however, probably do think this was justice served. I mean, if you believe somebody’s a baby-killer and they got theirs, why wouldn’t you think that’s justice. For pro-choicers who aren’t pacifists, imagine a doctor euthanizing/killing infants for parents overwhelmed by baby or that have a child suffering a birth defect, which they don’t want. That’s what the anti-abortionists see this guy as. (I know pro-choice folks will say, “but already-born infants don’t affect a woman’s bodily rights.” It’s just an example folks.)

Adding to my previous comment. As for the pacifists, there’s not much anything to say to you. Go hug a tree or something or ironically bother the politicians that govern the country by threat of violence (ever met a Cop without a gun?–that’s government and it’s necessary). Grow up.

Here is what I believe:
RoeVWade has been decided.
Until or unless overturned it is the law of the land.
Under Kansas law, Dr. Tiller was aquitted on 19 counts.
Abortion is in most cases the taking of a human life.
Dr. Tiller repeatedly and legally committed murder.
Scott Roeder, if convicted, is a murderer.
The left is disingenuous when not stating we have legalized infanticide.
The right is disingenuous regarding sex education and social welfare funding.
We need to improve adoption laws.
Capital punishment is murder.
Marriage is between a man and a woman in my church.
Marriage between anyone outside my church is their business aas long as it does not cost society financially.
States rights should prevail in both RoeVWade & Marriage.

Here is what I believe:
RoeVWade has been decided.
Until or unless overturned it is the law of the land.
Under Kansas law, Dr. Tiller was aquitted on 19 counts.
Abortion is in most cases the taking of a human life.
Dr. Tiller repeatedly and legally committed murder.
Scott Roeder, if convicted, is a murderer.
The left is disingenuous when not stating we have legalized infanticide.
The right is disingenuous regarding sex education and social welfare funding.
We need to improve adoption laws.
Capital punishment is murder.
Marriage is between a man and a woman in my church.
Marriage between anyone outside my church is their business unless it costs society financially.
States rights should prevail in both RoeVWade & Marriage.

It’s a sick society that allows over 4,000 innocent babies to be murdered every day. Those innocent babies suffer for the lack of morals in society these days. Because of the lack of morals Aids and veneral disease are rife. What about the parents of these young women. Why haven’t they given their daughters sex education and taught them to use the word “No” as many other young women do? Dr Tiller made money out of the suffering of these innocent babies and now he is going to have to answer for it. His wife and family have lived off the profit of abortion. Why did they bother going to church when they have no Christian ethics?

A few facts for the anti-lifers see nothing wrong with abortion:
Dr. Malcom Watts, writing a pro-abortion piece for the California Medical Association said: “…it has been necessary to separate the idea of abortion from the idea of killing, which continues to be socially abhorrent. The result has been a curious avoidance of the scientific fact, which everyone really knows, that human life begins at conception and is continuous until death.”

The real question is not about “choice.” It is whether we have the right to kill over 4,000 human beings a day, for any reason.

How Are Abortions Done?
Abortion is legal in this country until the day of birth! Many people do not know this. If you tell them, they refuse to believe it. Yet, the fact remains that a woman can legally abort her baby at any time during her pregnancy. The only thing that changes is the method and the cost.

Since abortion was legalized in 1973, approximately 1,500,000 babies have been aborted each year. One out of six women in this country have had abortions. Many times, they were not told about the procedure or the risks involved. They were most likely not informed about the development of the unborn baby inside of them.

Abortion is called a “choice”. If this is true, women should know what they are choosing!

The following is a description of the various types of abortions that are performed in this country.

RU-486

RU-486 is a drug that produces an abortion. It is taken after the mother misses her period. It can be used up to the second month of pregnancy. It works by blocking progesterone, a crucial hormone during pregnancy. Without progesterone, the uterine lining does not provide food, fluid and oxygen to the tiny developing baby. The baby cannot survive. A second drug is then given that stimulates the uterus to contract and the baby is expelled.

Women who abort with the drug RU-486 experience nausea, severe cramping, vomiting and bleeding. But the resulting emotional distress may have even more impact. Rather than being “over with” in a few minutes (as in a surgical abortion) this abortion could last for over a week. Then, when the woman finally does abort, she will expel a tiny dead human being – her baby.

Suction-Aspiration

In this method, the cervical muscle ring must be paralyzed and stretched open. The abortionist then inserts a hollow plastic tube with a knife-like edge into the uterus. The suction tears the baby’s body into pieces. The placenta is cut from the uterine wall and everything is sucked into a bottle.

Dilation and Curettage (D and C)

This is similar to a suction procedure except a curette, a loop-shaped steel knife is inserted into the uterus. The baby and placenta are cut into pieces and scraped out into a basin. Bleeding is usually very heavy with this method.

Dilation and Evacuation (D and E)
This type of abortion is done after the third month of pregnancy. The cervix must be dilated before the abortion. Usually Laminaria sticks are inserted into the cervix. These are made of sterilized seaweed that is compressed into thin sticks. When inserted, they absorb moisture and expand, thus enlarging the cervix. A pliers-like instrument is inserted through the cervix into the uterus. The abortionist then seizes a leg, arm or other part of the baby and, with a twisting motion, tears it from the body. This continues until only the head remains. Finally the skull is crushed and pulled out. The nurse must then reassemble the body parts to be sure that all of them were removed.

Prostaglandin Abortion

Prostaglandin is a hormone that induces labor. The baby usually dies from the trauma of the delivery. However, if the baby is old enough, it will be born alive. This is called a “complication.” To prevent this, some abortionists use ultrasound to guide them as they inject a “feticide” (a drug that kills the fetus) into the unborn baby’s heart. They then administer prostaglandin and a dead baby is delivered. This type of abortion is used in mid and late term pregnancies.

Dilation and Extraction (D and X)

This abortion is also used on mid and late term babies, from 4 to 9 months gestation. Ultrasound is used to identify how the unborn baby is facing in the womb. The abortionist inserts forceps through the cervical canal into the uterus and grasps one of the baby’s legs, positioning the baby feet first, face down (breech position). The child’s body is then pulled out of the birth canal except for the head which is too large to pass through the cervix. The baby is alive, and probably kicking and flailing his legs and arms. The abortionist hooks his fingers over the baby’s shoulders, holding the woman’s cervix away from the baby’s neck. He then jams blunt tipped surgical scissors into the base of the skull and spreads the tips apart to enlarge the wound. A suction catheter is inserted into the baby’s skull and the brain is sucked out. The skull collapses and the baby’s head passes easily through the cervix.

Abortion is called a “choice”. What is really chosen is the killing of a human being. The methods differ but the results are the same – a dead baby. Even abortion supporters admit this. Dr. Malcom Watts, writing a pro-abortion piece for the California Medical Association said: “…it has been necessary to separate the idea of abortion from the idea of killing, which continues to be socially abhorrent. The result has been a curious avoidance of the scientific fact, which everyone really knows, that human life begins at conception and is continuous until death.” The real question is not about “choice.” It is whether we have the right to kill over 4,000 human beings a day, for any reason.

What is intersting is that the operationrescue.org website has gone offline. The Google cache is still available. It makes me wonder if the folks at operationrescue.org are attempting damage control and wiping out all references to Scott Roeder? If so, I hope they realize that is obstruction of justice. More important, I hope the Obama Justice Department appreciates it is obstruction of justice too.

Nathan and Freida seem to think it’s a good thing that Ireland has banned abortion, well they should really talk to the 6,000+ Irish women who travel to the UK and other EU states every year for abortions.

You anti-choice people are ignorant, vile, and frankly sick in the head.

Women do not get late-term abortions on a whim; “hey, I’ve carried this pregnancy for 24 weeks, I think I want rid of it now”.

This is a heartbreaking, tragic, and all-too-necessary choice that some people are faced with. And YOU, apparently, would rather see suffering and death to a far greater degree than what they already face. Or maybe you are just too pig-ignorant and self-righteous to understand that.

Oh, and Freida — are you aware that you are repeating bullshit and lies and you just don’t care, or do you genuinely think that you are telling the truth, in which case you are merely ignorant and gullible, at best?

Burning the skin off the babies? Lady, what the hell is wrong with you?

She’s referring to saline abortions. According the the anti-abortion nuts, this is supposed to burn the baby to death.
Yeah, a 5% saline solution – how people survive swimming in the sea, I’ll never know. And as for gargling with salt water – ???!!!!

Sophia8 – you are simpleton – what do you think they inject the saline for – to cure baby of a cold – unblock it’s nose? Pathetic. Here it is again for all you liberals who don’t like to believe you support the killing of innocent babies:

Salt Poisoning (Saline Injection):
Used after 16 weeks (four months) when enough fluid has accumulated. A long needle injects a strong salt solution through the mother’s abdomen into the baby’s sac. The baby swallows this fluid and is poisoned by it. It also acts as a corrosive, burning off the outer layer of skin. It normally takes somewhat over an hour for the baby to die from this. Within 24 hours, labor will usually set in and the mother will give birth to a dead or dying baby. (There have been many cases of these babies being born alive. They are usually left unattended to die. However, a few have survived and later been adopted.)

When the Nazis came to power in 1933 one of the first acts Hitler did was to legalize abortion. By 1935 Germany with 65 million people was the place where over 500,000 abortions were being performed each year. Although Hitler and his government encourged Aryan women to produce a lot of children, he left the matter of abortion and all its facets in the hands of a decidely pro- abortion medical establishment. Even in the midst of Nazi propaganda aimed at increasing the Aryan population, scores of Aryan women still chose to abort their unborn children. The medical publication Deutsches Aerzleblatt reported the abortions in Germany each year reached a half-million.

Further, a Nazi decree of October 19, 1941 established abortion on demand as the official policy of Poland. Hitler, however, expressed dissatisfaction with this policy. Abortion, he believed, should NOT be limited to Poland. He therefore ordered that abortion be expanded to all populations under the control of the “Ministry of the Occupied Territories of the East.”

On July 22, 1942, the Fuhrer exhibited a highly positive attitude towards abortion as an indispensable method of dealing with the non-German populations in countries under Nazi control. “In view of the large families of the native populations,” he asserted, “it could only suit us if girls and women there had as many abortions as possible.” Hitler also personally announced that he “would personally shoot” any “such idiot” who “tried to put into practice such an order (forbidding abortion) in the occupied Eastern territories.

Despite contemporary attempts to characterize Hitler as opposed to abortion, the historical evidence clearly and overwhelmingly supports only one possible conclusion: Hitler and his regime were adamantly pro-abortion. To depict Hitler as anti-abortion is a ludicrous as calling him anti-genocide or pro- Jewish. Both Hitler and his government had little regard for human life perceived as subpar, whether born or preborn.

Sophia8 God bless Ireland for refusing to legalize abortion and thanks be to God that those women have to take a ferry ride from Ireland to the UK so they can think about whether they want to go ahead and kill their baby.

Freida, here’s another fact for you to ignore: when Hitler came to power in 1936, no other government would even negotiate with him… until the ice was broken after six months by his special treaty (“Concordat”) with the Vatican.

However, it wasn’t until October of 1936 that he established the “Reich Headquarters for the Combating of Homosexuality and Abortion”.

The Third Reich tightened up and enforced more rigorously the existing laws banning abortion except on medical grounds, thereby reducing the number of officially sanctioned abortions from nearly 35,000 a year in the early 1930s to fewer than 2,000 a year by the end of the decade.

– Richard J. Evans, The Third Reich in Power, pg 515

Facts! If that’s what you’re looking for, you’ve come to the right place – for a change…

Operation Rescue and the Army Of God are domestic terrorists. They don’t even compare to the left. They use strong arm tactics like blowing up buildings and KILLING PEOPLE to get their opinions across. We should ensure that these organizations are not funded and that they are watched very closely. What’s next? Are the anti-abortion groups going to kill the women procuring the abortions? I wouldn’t put it past them….

Dr. Tiller wasn’t murdered; he was given a very late-term abortion.
Yes, what Tiller did was legal, but that doesn’t make it right. What he did was repugnant to the majority of Americans and he was well aware of the outrage his “profession” caused. It is also legal to drive through a Jewish neighborhood waving a Nazi flag and yelling anti-semitic slurs, but anyone who does this shouldn’t be surprised if they are met with violence.
I don’t condone murder but I have trouble feeling any sympathy for this man. Late-term abortion is murder. A viable fetus has its brains sucked out and its skull crushed just seconds before leaving the womb. Anyone who could perform such a procedure is a monster. (And, by the way, I am actually pro-choice and saying this.) Tiller’s death was relatively quick and painless compared to the suffering he imposed on tens of thousands of unborn babies.

If you don’t like abortions, don’t get one. Otherwise, stay out of my life. It’s arrogant to think that you can do God’s job for Him. He can judge whether or not it was murder. I certainly don’t want someone like Scott or Freida affecting any aspect of my behavior. Don’t forget, just because something is outlawed doesn’t mean it stops happening, it just happens dangerously.

It seems like the religious folks are pretty hateful, kinda like God in the old testament, before the “new and improved” “kinder, gentler” version of God, whom he called Jesus. Whatever happened to “love your enemy” (Matt 5:44) ?

Anti-abortion promoters reek of hypocrisy. And it’s been displayed in these comments and called out by better writers than I, so I won’t go there. Let me comment on one aspect of their hypocrisy that hasn’t been brought up. If one ever has the chance—it happens rarely, but I’ve experienced it a few times—to have a rational conversation with an anti-abortion zealot the conversation can be most informative. After a few pleasant niceties they usually reveal that fundamental to their view is the women seeking abortions are immoral, sexually promiscuous, sinful women who deserve punishment. The anti-abortion zealots have no capacity to comprehend that someone’s choice to have an abortion may involve something more than just birth control with one exception: Their, their daughter’s, their mother’s, or their sister’s (fill in the relationship) pregnancy.

Every Planned Parenthood (PP) clinic nationwide has at least one, and sometimes several, experiences where a regular anti-abortion protester suddenly finds themselves facing the same situation facing clients they condemn: An urgent need for an abortion as a consequence of an unplanned pregnancy or one with unanticipated complications. Of course, they consider themselves highly moral, so their choice is a moral one, not like those “sluts who use abortion as birth control.” When they do enter a clinic, the internal contradiction between their misguided beliefs and their need can wreak havoc not only on their own minds but on the staff and other patients in the waiting room. PP staff always treat them like any other patient, with sensitivity and care, but their self righteousness often gets in the way, so much so that in some cases a PP staff will refuse to give them medical care and show them the door. Some have even railed at the doctor during the abortion! They just can’t quite reconcile their religious (and it’s almost always religious dogma that gets in the way) beliefs with their medical and social needs. Ironically, many of the same women, once they’ve had the abortion, return to the picket line the following week, firm in their conviction that their abortion was performed for righteous reasons, unlike those provided all those regular sluts. Hypocrites!

It is so shocking to see how many folks that claim themselves as Christians find this atrocity acceptable; and are even happy about it. I was in the unfortunate position to have to reach out to Dr. Tiller for help. I had a very much wanted and planned pregnancy that went horribly wrong. I had a choice. Carry to term and watch my baby die or have Dr Tiller induce to allow my daughter a peiceful fairwell. Either way my daughter was going to die.

Dr. Tiller was a compassionate man that stood for a woman’s choice even against his own personal safety. Today is a dark day for our countries war on terrorism. Those who point their finger from their pedastool telling the masses what they should believe are not true Christians.

If you find that the death of “Tiller the Killer” acceptable you are just as perverse and responsible as the man who pulled the trigger.

Anti-abortion zealots detach themselves from contemporary reality; they also ignore history. Before abortion became legal in the US, starting in the 1960’s (legal in several states before Roe v. Wade) abortions were widely performed. Those provided to the affluent by the medical profession just weren’t called that; those provided to the less well off were provided in back alleys and not reported at all. The estimated numbers, based on reported births, miscarriages, and pregnancy rates, were very similar to those reported after Roe v. Wade. In other words, when abortions were banned, they still were provided but their reality was denied. The US was living a lie. That is the reality the anti-abortion zealots would have us return to, with a sharp increase in maternal mortality, given the risks in back alley abortions.

My views on abortion were shaped in the era before it became legal. I’m not a physician but I’ve got a sister, a college roommate, and a host of childhood and college friends who became doctors. All spent part of their clinical training in the emergency rooms of urban hospitals, some in NYC, some Boston, and others in Philadelphia, during the late ’50’s and early ’60’s, before abortion was legal anywhere. A harsh experience engraved in their minds was witnessing the maimed young women brought into emergency rooms with botched back alley abortions. I heard their horror stories half a century ago and haven’t forgotten them. If I have anything to say about it, I’ll not let this country return to such a primitive state again. Banning abortion is no solution, as witness the sky high abortion rates in those nations where it is banned like the Philippines and the nations of Latin America. If we respond rationally, we can reduce the rate of abortions, but only by offering age appropriate comprehensive sex education in the public schools and making contraception and family planning services widely available.

As for the blessing that Ireland reputedly offers, I’ll bet the only Irish women who fly to Britain for abortions are the affluent. The poor still get back alley abortions, risking the horrors of third world medical care. And they can thank the Catholic church, the one that has cared so much for the welfare of orphans during the last century, for those horrors.

Imagine, “Appointment cancelled indefinitely”. I am so happy that those unborn babies who are scheduled for Monday mass-murder by this despicable killer monster is spared today. I don’t care what happened to the piece of garbage, I am happy that no more innocent bloods are going to be shed by this killing machine.

Killing a monster is not murder. It is justice served.

If you don’t like slaugtering a blood-thisrty monster, don’t have one.

It would make it just a little harder to paint anti-choicers as extremists if so many of them weren’t high fiving each other while reveling in fantasies of holy vengeance and persecution.

And congratulations. You’ve managed to show that by perpetually demonizing someone in the vilest terms you can count on their being at least one person disturbed enough to take you at your words and act on them. Or, looking at the right’s reactions, a lot of disturbed people.

At least a couple bloggers commented that “pro-choicers even want to kill babies after they are born.”
Come on. Think about what you are saying and stop spreading such ridiculous out-right lies. Making such a statement reveals your extreme stupidity.
If you cannot stick with true facts, keep your opinions to yourself !!!

Are you able to see how specific commentors got to this thread? I’m noticing a lot of repeat phrases and tactics showing up in the pro-doctor murder crowd, for lack of better descriptors. It might just be because of the high volume of insanity they’re producing, but I’m curious if they’re all coming from a common place (like a thread on some crazy person blog) or just working off a script or seeing one of their buddies same “random crazy thought x” and figure they better echo it.

No clue why this of all things is catching my attention other than its a monday and I don’t want to be doing my real work.

Nazi population policy can be summarized in the following way:
Medical and legal policies on contraceptives, abortion, and child-rearing were designed to reduce the birthrate of unwanted groups. Contraceptives were freely available and often supplied without charge. Abortion was made legal, safe, and conveniently available through special clinics or local physicians. Mothers were expected to work and were deliberately separated from their children at an early age to make motherhood less meaningful.
For non-Jews, population control appeared voluntary, but coercion was always present at least to the extent that avoiding birth was made easier than childbearing. For those living under difficult conditions, that is enough to constitute coercion. For Jews sterilization and abortions were often forced.
The media cooperated by stressing the personal disadvantages of having children and telling how childbirth could be avoided by birth control and abortion. Pornography and sex without children (including homosexuality) were promoted to weaken the family, distract from political resistance, and destroy spiritual values.
Much like the Holocaust, the real purpose of these policies-reducing the population of unwanted groups-was kept a closely guarded secret. This sometimes lead to conflict between those who set up the policies and those who carried them out without knowing their purpose. After the war, Nazi population policies in Eastern Europe led to the recognition of a new crime under international law, the crime of genocide.
References:

There is a wealth of information on the web regarding the grizzly practice of abortion including on Dr Tiller’s own web site which states that he had over 2,000 patients (4,000 if you include the babies) and therefore he snuffed out the life of at least 2,000 babies aborted during 10 years listed on his web site. His church benefited from the fruits of his abortion practice. He gave money to politicians.

Because of the wealth of information available there is no excuse for any woman (or any poster here for that matter) to be ignorant of what happens to her baby when she “chooses” to kill it. (In fact there are pictures on the web that show that Dr Tiller held funerals for babies after he aborted them – how sick is that?)

The fifth commandment says, “Thou shalt not kill” and no Christian can therefore procure an abortion or be involved in abortions without breaking the fifth Commandment. I am surprised that Dr Tiller’s church turned a blind eye to his heinous work.

Also, there is a grisly trade in baby parts taking place in abortion facilities throughout the nation. You can obtain copies of the actual order forms used. Some of the forms request that there be no abnormalities. Many mistakenly think that abortions in later stages of pregnancy are performed only in cases of fetal abnormality.

Fetal tissue wholesalers are companies which place employees in abortion clinics to harvest tissue, limbs, organs, etc. from aborted babies. This material is then shipped to researchers working for universities, pharmaceutical companies and government agencies. Although it is against federal law to sell human tissue or body parts, these organizations have devised a system to circumvent this restriction. Technically, all fetal material they harvest is “donated” to them by the clinics. However, they do pay a “site fee” to the clinics for the right to access the tissue. The tissue is then “donated” to the researchers who in turn pay the wholesalers for the cost of retrieval. Profit is realized by the wholesalers’ ability to set their own retrieval fees.

No one who is prolife can condone the murder of Dr Tiller but the fact that he has been murdered does not exonerate him, nor his wife who stood by him and his church who are therefore complicit in the act of killing innocent babies and will one day have to answer to God for that just as Dr Tiller now has to and as the killer of Dr Tiller will have to one day as well.

Each one of us gets only one chance to see the beauty of our inexplicable reality and our unfathomable universe, and those of us who elect to take it away prematurely get exactly what they deserve – irrevokable death, and removal from our reality and universe.

Indeed, I say that Mr. Tiller got exactly what he deserved, though much too late; I relish in his renewed non-existence.

Verily I say unto you, may Mr. Tiller never, in any reality, experience this life again.

The figures on his web site only cover the years January 1989 to 2002, so it’s safe to say he snuffed out the life of more than 3,000 babies.

Politicians and his so-called “Christian” church benefited from the $5,000 he received per abortion. He charged $5,000 to snuff out the life of each baby of over six months’ gestation. Maybe he would be alive today if his church had have turned him away from this evil way of life.

Why I can’t stand folks that think abortion is murder but it should be legal:

A decent pro-choice person doesn’t think it’s murder. If you think you’re killing a baby and it should be legal, you should give up whatever religion you’re clinging to because you suck at it anyway and your God will surely zap you in the end for your suckiness. I can’t stand whateverists (I just coined that term)–Yeah, I think cannibalism is wrong, but that’s my lifestyle decision.

What’s with the “gov’t decides morality” stance? It’s okay if the government says so even if I think it violates someone’s inalienable rights is what these folks are saying. Once upon a time, slavery was legal. In Nazi Germany, the government said it was okay to systematically exterminate millions of Jewish citizens. People were right to fight against those things because even though legal, they were unjust and against fundamental human rights (inalienable or God-given, or rights granted by the atheist nongod that grants those mystical rights on otherwise just-animal human beings*). Even if you don’t think abortion is a violation of the unborns’ rights (at any stage), you can’t say the government is the end-all for every issue. To say you’re morally opposed because you think it’s murder but because it’s legal, oh well…good grief! Pro-choicers who believe it’s not a conscious life with rights have a moral leg to stand on because they make sense with a rational argument, regardless if they’re wrong or right. This relativist, post-modern, whatever-it’s-called worldview, however, is twisted and disgusting because you think something actually is murder, but try to be cool by saying “oh well.” Most social liberals actually have consciences that they’re guided by, even if their worldviews vary from social conservatives. People who believe one thing is unjust but okay because it’s legal are apathetic–which is the worst thing to be on any side of an issue.

*To be fair to atheists, I’m sure you can rationally argue to some extent that social contract theory creates certain rights based on the eye-for-an-eye Golden Rule (Hammurabi’s code).

I think people have certain rights you can’t take away (ownership of their own selves, including the fruit of their labor (property), and the freedom to pursue happiness. The government just acknowledges and protects them or unjustly denies them. For the record, I’m pro-life at least regarding late-term abortions and not sure about earlier-term abortions. Think France might have a better system. We Americans seem to like to make things black or white rather than saying, well, yeah, I’m pretty sure that infant that just came out of that lady looked and felt and acted very similarly a couple hours ago while still in its mama’s belly.

Here’s exactly what Dr. Tiller routinely did and what he called “late term” abortion: Doctor Tiller stuck his hand inside a mother and physically grabbed the baby by its feet. He then pulled the baby out – feet first – until just the skull remained inside the mom. Doctor Tiller then took scissors and stabbed them into the back of the baby’s skull, creating a hole. Tiller then inserted a vacuum tube into that hole and used it to suck out the baby’s brain, killing it. When the baby’s brain was out, Tiller crushed the skull, pulled the baby out and threw it in a trash can. THAT is what Dr. George Tiller did on a regular basis.

At this point, most rational people will be sick to their stomachs and will be wondering why this is even lawful. But the folks over at DailyKos and other left wing sites aren’t rational. They see nothing wrong with what I just described; they call it “a woman’s right to choose.” That is mental illness, folks. The left-wing in this country is mentally ill. They’re actually psychotic.

The Nazi’s learned from the Zionist who Practiced Eugenics and Sterilization. Here is the proof:

`Do not have children if they won’t be healthy!’

Haaretz Israel – Tuesday, June 02, 200
By Tamara Traubmann

A shocking new study reveals how key figures in the pre-state Zionist establishment proposed castrating the mentally ill, sterilizing the poor and doing everything possible to ensure reproduction only among the `best of people.’

Julius Streicher affirmed at his Nuremberg trial, that the Nazis based the segregationist laws of Nazi Germany on Jewish law. Streicher stated,

“Yes, I believe I had a part in it insofar as for years I have written that any further mixture of German blood with Jewish blood must be avoided. I have written such articles again and again; and in my articles I have repeatedly emphasized the fact that the Jews should serve as an example to every race, for they created a racial law for themselves-the law of Moses, which says, ‘If you come into a foreign land you shall not take unto yourself foreign women.’ And that, Gentlemen, is of tremendous importance in judging the Nuremberg Laws. These laws of the Jews were taken as a model for these laws. When, after centuries, the Jewish lawgiver Ezra discovered that notwithstanding many Jews had married non-Jewish women, these marriages were dissolved. That was the beginning of Jewry which, because it introduced these racial laws, has survived throughout the centuries, while all other races and civilizations have perished.”

Who said I was religious or a pro-lifer? When two getto rats breed, I’m all for aborting them. We have enough of them already. When two intelligent people breed, particularly those of European descent, I would generally be against their abortion, but since my rights end where the rights of others begin and vice versa, it’s not my business. Having said that, I resent having my tax dollars directly or indirectly funding the abortion (and many other) industries. There are times where a baby should be aborted based in medical necessity, but the abortion industry is just that, an industry. This guy made a lightening rod of himself and he paid the price.

It’s truly remarkable, how some people rejoice over the murder of another human being and are boastful of their propensity to hate. perhaps these people are anencephalics who managed to survive. This individual murder is not the domestic terrorism we’ve been talking about, but only the latest killing in a program of terrorism that has been going on for years, involving shootings, bombings, intimidation, and other efforts to use fear to prevent other groups from behaving in a manner the terrorist group doesn’t like.

Mark, I was born with my skull and brain intact, but can still see that this tiller was a disgusting person.
I understand that some of his ‘abortions’ are not just mom don’t want the kid’ stuff.
But I shed no tear for the killer of so many.
He took over 60,000 lives, and deserves no pity.

All the liberals posting here and elsewhere promote and support a woman’s “right” or “choice” to kill her innocent unborn baby as Dr Tiller did routinely as late as nine months – according to his own web site. These liberals are legal terrorists – always on about human rights but never concerned about the FUNDAMENTAL BASIC RIGHT TO LIFE that they themselves have but would deprive innocent babies of the to breath the air they breathe.

And as for adopting babies – ask any would be adoptee parent, there are no babies available – they’re all aborted and their parts are now being used in stem cell research. the most dangerous place for babies is in their mother’s womb, even more so if you’re a liberal who believes in the ultimate terror of killing babies in the womb!

For those babies who were killed by Tiller, he was the ultimate terrorist, not Al Queda or anyone else, but one of their own, a doctor who one would normally expect to support and uphold life, not kill it as Tiller did – I don’t think he deserves the title “doctor” because that is defined as “A person, especially a physician, dentist, or veterinarian, TRAINED IN THE HEALING ARTS and licensed to practice”. He used his license to kill and not to heal. Tiller was the ultimate terrorist to the thousands of babies the lives and potential he snuffed out. It’s just as well President Obama’s mother wanted him otherwise the US would not now have its first black President. And all of your liberal terrorists if your mother’s hadn’t wanted you and Tiller’s mother had aborted him, just maybe the world would have been a better place – certainly for those babies that he sucked the life out of and LIVED OFF THE FRUITS OF THE MOTHERS’ FRUITLESS LABOR!

Journalists are invited to see why George Tiller earned the special ire of pro-lifers nationwide, and why TV Journalist Bill O’Reilly called Mr. Tiller “Tiller the Baby Killer,” and why Randall Terry has called Dr. Tiller a “mass murderer.”

It is suggested that all who are determined to do thorough reporting copy the entire site into their hard drive, before it is removed again.

Freida @ # 109 – An oversized cut ‘n’ paste makes a very poor response – the more so when you omit just which author and work you are cribbing.

I’m no expert, but for a layperson I consider myself fairly well-read on the Nazi era, and your source’s summary contradicts what just about every other historian says. Here’s a hint: look up lebensraum.

But then, as previously noted and as confirmed by your distortions in every other comment you’ve made here, factual dialog with you is hopeless. Isn’t it nice how so many other commenters in this lost-cause thread share your prejudices?

Bravo, Pierce R. Butler. You’ve called Frieda out. She lives in a fantasy world, spreading cribbed—or distorted words—about a viewpoint in which she fervently wants to believe, even to the point of offering blatant fictions. She’s obviously stockpiled the myths in which she likes to believe—and I’m not talking about her religion here—so she can spew them forth. That she has these myths on her hard drive or in hard copy makes them all the more true to her, but in reality does nothing to support their truth. As the late Senator Moynihan noted (paraphrased slightly here) “Freida’s entitled to her own opinion but not her own facts.”

If you want to read what the US would be like if the Freidas and the Scott Roeder’s of the US held political sway, read the NY Times article in Tuesday’s paper about abortion in the Third World. It’s chilling, very, very chilling. No rational person would visit that situation on one’s worst enemies. I defy the anti-abortion zealots to defend that situation.

Keanus: “If you want to read what the US would be like if the Freidas and the Scott Roeder’s of the US held political sway, read the NY Times article in Tuesday’s paper about abortion in the Third World.”

And if you want to read what the US will be like now that the Emmanuel Cellers, Rahm Emmanuels, Keanus’s and other libturds have their way, just read any National Geographic. By opening up our borders to unlimited third-world invasion, they are intentionally turning the USA into a third-world country. (Which is the plan, BTW. Abort the White babies, then scream about the need for growth and necessity for third-worlders in USA.)

Commie jews always attack the dominant homogeneous culture, and prop up the “minorities” in their divide and rule strategy. They killing of babies is just a “two-fer” since they also covertly worship Molloch. (Google “Bohemian Grove” and read about the “mock” child sacrifice to Molloch, attended by world leaders.)

I’m sure this will be censored. Can’t let the sheeples learn too much now, can we?

Some blogs are estimating that Tiller murdered 72,000 innocent babies – they say this number is deduced from Tiller’s own estimate of 2,000 abortions per year over 36 years – from Roe v. Wade (1973), when abortion was legalized, to 2009.

$5,000 per baby murder he charged – $5,000 by 72,000 – do the sums! How much of that went into the pockets of politicians and the church he supported?

All you lily white liberals have the blood of those babies on your hands and no doubt have had abortions yourselves.

Some blogs are estimating that Tiller murdered 72,000 innocent babies – they say this number is deduced from Tiller’s own estimate of 2,000 abortions per year over 36 years – from Roe v. Wade (1973), when abortion was legalized, to 2009.

And you’ve been correcting them, right? After all, you were the person who pasted, directly from his website, the following data: January 1989 to May 2002, Number of Patients: 2,210.

That means that the number should be estimated at around 7,000 not 72,000.

$5,000 per baby murder he charged – $5,000 by 72,000 – do the sums! How much of that went into the pockets of politicians and the church he supported?

Oops, I guess that means that rather thn correcting the error, you are deliberately passing on false information. So since you have now demonstrated your willingness to lie to us, why should we believe anything you have said or will say in the future?

BTW, the cost of the extra insurance (and taxes and other such expenses) he paid is approximately what he charged to perform the abortions, if you use the numbers he provided. This was a net drain on his income when you take into consideration lost opportunity (i.e., operations for which he could have realized a profit but did not perform because of time spent on the abortions).

So many folks are giving very graphic descriptions on what happened at Dr. Tiller’s clinic. The first question I have for each one of you HOW DO YOU KNOW THIS? Because you read some relgious zelots propiganda to fullfil his/her own agenda.

One poster even went as far to say there is a wealth of knowledge on the internet regarding these practices. Newsflash for all of you with these views. Just because it’s on the internet doesn’t mean it’s true. I was at Dr. Tiller’s office, I was awake during my induction. None of the above mentioned practices are true. My babies head was never crushed, he did not rip her from my body. I was induced end of story.

Dr Tiller did not kill babies he gave commapsionate care to families in crisis so we did not have to carry-to-term a baby that was going to die. Get off of your high horse and worry about your own lives. If you don’t like abortion don’t get one. You are not gods and have no right to dictate your views on the rest of the world.

Pro-Life does not mean Pro-abortion. It just means we refuse to force others to meld to our personal views.

Freida, you’re tilting at windmills, taking exception to a fantasy that doesn’t comport with reality, and conjuring up “facts”—the very kind to which you are not entitled— to support your fantasy—all of which renders dialogue with you perfectly pointless. It is folks like you to whom Obama referred in his speech at Notre Dame, who need to calm the rhetoric and search for common ground. But no, you know better just like Scott Roeder did with all too predictable results.

You only like speaking in an echo chamber so maybe you should go post at Operation Rescue where the echo will tell you what a great mind you have and what fabulous arguments you offer. And let those of us in the real world get on with the very real task of helping women gain access to adequate reproductive medicine, family planning guidance, contraception, and real support.

That demand in response to my #129 (criticizing the use of an unsourced cut ‘n’ paste) just blew the fuse of my irony meter. (Don’t worry, I have a carton of spares.)

I had suspected that you were borrowing from the work of discredited pseudohistorian Richard Weikart, but a Google search indicates that text is found online only at a Catholic site (ewtn.org) and an imaginatively twisted Russian site (antisex.info/en – “unites all the antisexuals”). Both are from a fragmentary, tendentious, and amateurish essay by one Mike W. Perry about Nazi policies in occupied eastern Europe.

Again, if you’re interested in the historical reality (yeah, I crack myself up sometimes) of Hitler’s policies on human reproduction, look up lebensraum – and use sources whose priority is historical research, not religious (& antisex) propaganda.

Although some of the anti-abortionists are truly anti-violence, it’s easy to see in these comments how little regard for humanity many anti-abortionists have–even joking about a murder. How is that different from a couple of bin Laden’s henchmen sitting around joking about bodies falling out of the collapsing World Trade Center towers? They object to the use of the term “terrorism” in describing the often violent, constant harassment, at times murderous ongoing efforts of their group which uses fear and intimidation to achieve their goal.

Ok, my apologies. I reran my numbers with better estimates and it came out with Tiller showing a small profit. Regardless, it is still less than what he could get if he chose to perform other family health practice. Late-term abortion is definitely not the path to wealth and fame.

W. Kevin Vicklund, you are a bona-fide idiot. First of all, are you contending that Pierce supports or applauds the murder of pro-LIFE activists, while Trotsky , Kaganovich and Mugabe do not?!? Facilitating the murder of white babies while simultaneously supporting the 3rd world invasion of white countries (and thus displacement of whites in their own countries) is part of the wider agenda of jewish supremacists and their leftists minions. Pierce is a lefty who supports murdering babies, so he falls into the leftest commie camp, regardless of his stance on other issues. Period. I cite “The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion” at http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/przion1.htm for all the answers to the puzzle you will ever need.

Every form of social alienation has been employed by jewish supremacists to divide and weaken homogeneous Western societies to include feminism. Jewish feminists like Gloria Steinem, Bella Abzug, Betty Friedan, Susan Brownmiller, Phyllis Chesler, Suzie Chicago (Cohen), Naomi Wolf, Susan Faludi et al. have pushed this leftist agenda, which benefits their tribe. See “Jewish Women and the Feminist Revolution to get a grasp on jewish involvement in this movement: http://jwa.org/feminism/?id=JWA008

Feminism destroys families. Period. The specific target is white families. These jewish feminists never have the best interest of women at heart (women working harder than ever now), but are just a cog in the overall leftist machine employed to destroy Western society. This leftist machine works hand-in-hand with other society destroying mechanisms such as pro “minority” empowerment (really just displacement of whites), pro-homosexual movement (further destroys and/or impedes families), Christian bashing (jewish Hollywood, jewish media, ACLU).

You can also read Dr. Kevin MacDonald’s book “Culture of Critique” which is an evolutionary analysis of jewish involvement in 20th century leftists intellectual and political movements, which includes feminism and pro-choice movements here in PDF here: http://www.zogsnightmare.com/books/CultureOfCritique.pdf

JUNE 1, 2009 – GEORGE TILLER THE BABY KILLER
George Tiller – the infamous late-term abortionist and medical director of Women’s Health Care Services in Wichita, Kansas – was killed on May 31, 2009.

Tiller was one of only three nationwide abortionists that make a living injecting digoxin into the beating hearts of small infants from the 21st week of pregnancy to birth. This man put Kansas on the map as the “abortion state” with his entrepreneurial spirit in capitalizing on abortion services.

In addition to being a hit man for hire, Tiller also offered funerary services to mothers that paid him to off their kids. While most clinics in the nation are content to just rape and scrape, Tiller took his practice leaps and bounds beyond the norm and peddled abortion packages that included photographing, footprinting, handprinting, baptism, cremation, and arrangement for autopsy.

George Tiller personally killed more babies than America lost soldiers in Vietnam. Although he specialized in killing handicapped children, most of his tiny victims were late term, fully-formed, healthy, and viable outside the womb. He performed an average of roughly seven post-viable abortions per week and has admitted on tape to aborting babies a day before the mother’s due date.

Despite his radical dealings in abortion extremism for over 35 years, Tiller has been met with physical violence only three times in his career of mass baby slaughter. His clinic was bombed in 1985. On August 19, 1993 he was shot in both arms outside of his Wichita clinic. And on May 31, 2009 Tiller was shot to death as he served as an usher during church services.

Murder is murder, and it is something that we pro-lifers inherently deplore. But I can’t help but note – and my history is rusty so pardon me here – I’m trying to remember, did anyone mourn Lee Harvey Oswald when Jack Ruby gunned him down? Or better yet, did anyone mourn the deaths of Ted Bundy or Jeffrey Dahmer, or any other mass murderer for that matter? Even according to the harebrained pro-choice life-at-viability reckoning, Tiller was indisputably a mass murderer who was executed in a fashion far more humane than the tens of thousands of children that he mutilated and left to die in cuddle session bassinets.

I mean, think about it. Someone just shot a Nazi guard manning the gas chamber at Aushwitz. I should feel bad about this? George Tiller the Baby Killer’s acts are every bit as vile as the Nazi war criminals who were hunted down, tried, and sentenced after they participated in the “legal” murder of the Jews that fell into their hands.

The lone wacko who gunned Tiller down was not associated with any single pro-life organization or group. He was working solo and his acts rest on his head alone. So why, exactly, are pro-lifers doing back flips to appease the abortion mongering moonbats that seek to elevate Tiller to martyrdom and sainthood?

Instead of scrambling to feverishly denounce the pro-life community (“Anyone who thinks Tiller’s death is in any way a positive thing is not a true pro-lifer”… huh?) we should be looking at a very serious fact: If every single pro-lifer who is currently falling all over themselves to publicly mourn the “loss” of this abortionist displayed just a fraction of that outrage over just ONE of the children Tiller murdered on a regular nine to five, Baby Killer Tiller would have been put out of business long ago and he would not be dead today.

Over the years there have been multiple opportunities to peacefully and legally hold George Tiller accountable to his actions, thus shielding him from acts of extremism. An example would be his trial that took place in March of 2009. Being charged with 19 misdemeanors he got off scott-free through corrupt political ties and professional dishonesty. Again, had justice been served in that courtroom, Tiller would be alive today and serving a sentence behind bars.

Is the pro-life position one of violence? Of course not. It is because we are so peaceful that lone acts of extremism immediately garner national attention. In the course of a 36 year genocide, only five abortionists have been killed. According to government statistics from the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health, for every abortionists killed, over thirty clergy members have been murdered. Where are the candlelight vigils and 24/7 news coverage for these victims of political violence?

According to the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence, every day more than 80 Americans die from gun violence – many of these being senseless death with the victims innocent of any wrong-doing. And here we have a man who made a living peddling death, who reaped what he had been sowing for over 36 years at $5,000+ a pop. Does this honestly surprise anyone?

Pro-lifers need to stop hyperventilating over the pro-aborts who are having aneurisms synthesizing mock outrage at Tiller’s demise. We need, now more than ever, to keep things in proper perspective.

I know this is a huge loss for Tiller’s family and they need our prayer and support. I’m sure they are grieving bitterly, and it is heartbreaking to think of the pain that they must be feeling. It is ultimately tragic that Tiller did not have an opportunity to properly prepare his soul to face his Maker. Unless some miracle happened, he left this life with his hands drenched with innocent blood.

While it is imperative that we extend love and grace to the family of Tiller, we still cannot afford to lose sight of the fact that George Tiller was a mass murderer of the worst kind who made a living off of killing babies and harming women. Unless you are radically against capital punishment, those who view abortion as murder agree that the penalty for the crime of mass child slaughter is death. And although the method and means of his execution is deplorable, the ultimate outcome is not.

The man chose his fate the moment he dismembered his first infant. I’m not embarrassed to say what the punishment for the crime is anymore than I’m embarrassed to admit that child killing is a crime.

Did I want him to be gunned down in church – even a hypocritical, Molech-worshiping fraud of a church like the one he was attending while shot? No. I would have much preferred him being tried and convicted in a court of law that is consistent with medical science and personhood as defined in our Constitution. We can prevent the atrocious acts of violence against abortionists by holding them accountable to their actions.

There is no doubt that Tiller deserved to be executed for his crimes. I just would have preferred a state sanctioned lethal injection, hanging, firing squad, electric chair, good old fashioned stoning, what have you.

The sooner pro-lifers stop giving pro-aborts wiggle room in their perpetual playing of the victim card, the better. We need to reveal to the nation what this man did for a living and shed even more light on the grisly details of abortion. Our pointless pacifism and back-peddling in the face of this tragedy is helping turn George Tiller into a hero for the pro-abort crowd.

Already, the pro-deathers are making absurd comments such as, “Tiller was truly pro-life, he helped women and was willing to sacrifice his own life for them!” Well, if pro-aborts can dub Tiller “truly pro-life”, then in all fairness I guess it’s safe to say that his killer was truly “pro-choice”. He believed in the idea that if a person’s existence troubles you, you have the right to kill them. He also obviously strongly felt that every abortionist should be a wanted abortionist. Is it not a personal decision? His ammunition, his choice? Everybody has an opinion… can’t we all just get along? Find common ground, like Obama asked us to?

I mean, I personally would not shoot an abortionist, but who am I to impose my morality on someone else? If you are against shooting abortionists, then don’t shoot one, right? Hmm, suddenly pro-choice rhetoric doesn’t sound so warm and fuzzy and virtuous, does it?

Tiller was killed by a pro-choice act. Pro-lifers need make no apologies. Both men are guilty of bloodshed and this tragedy is a sad but all-too-real testament to the biblical truth that those who live by the sword, die by the sword.

W. Kevin Vicklund – the original figures I took from his web site, now closed down. “Google Tiller, 60,000″, and you will come across sites carrying audio where he personally states to have carried out 60,000 – so unfortunately you’ll have to re-do your sums again. Plus you can find details of the “Hair” doctor who never saw the patients and was a second certifying doctor. But I doubt you and other pro-choicers for murder could care less.

“Dr. Tiller, who is estimated to have performed about 60,000 abortions, also has given more than $10,000 under his own name to Sebelius campaigns, and an additional $10,000 under his own name to Bluestem Fund, a Sebelius-run political action committee.

Thousands of dollars have gone to both sources from other members of the Tiller family and from Womens Health Care Services, Dr. Tiller’s Wichita abortion clinic. The clinic also has donated $100,000 to the Democratic Governors Association.”

This was not a killing, it was an execution. Bottom line; Tiller was a killer. You live by the “sword” you die by the “sword.”

I have no sympathy for money grubbing doctors (Yes, Tiller did it for the money – just follow the money trail) acting like they are doing something good for women but they are no better than a televangelist ripping off widows and orphans for their last cent!

“Pro choice/death” people are such hypocrites; never seeing the forest because of the tree of their selfishness; never shedding a tear for the children torn to shreds by this man’s seared conscience.

Killing babies!!! The ultimate retardation. Libs are so retarded that if the phony democrats-liberals took up the cause of babies and the phony republicans were for abortion, then the libs would blindly follow the party line and be AGAINST abortion.

Blind, retarded, self murdering libs. I guess there must be a reason they are here? Please? Someone tell me why they are evolutionary relevant? Maybe we need blind fanatical followers to fuel our society?

@freida above
conservatively, my handy dandy contraception guide says that 47% of women in the United States have had an abortion. I sincerely doubt that 90% of all pro choice women have had abortions, so a good number of those would be… hypocrite pro lifers.