DamageWagon wrote:I thought shot placement and loading procedures were the major takeaways from the Miami shootout. And having comms so the only two agents with body armor and MP-5's aren't busy banging a waitress two miles down the street when your guys are getting killed by dudes with .223 Rugers...

Sent from my safe space

Not entirely. Yes, the investigation revealed reloading revolvers under duress was problematic, and yes, only some were wearing light body armor, and only a few of the cars had riot shotguns, however the assaialant with the Ruger Ranch rifle was shot 10+ times, he continued to fight between 5 & 6 min after sustaining the first shot, which the forensic coroner stated was the actual lethal shot, but lack of penetration permitted him to continue fighting, firing 45-50 shots, seriously wounding 4 Agents, 2 mortally. Thus the lack of ballistic penetration & poor bullet homogeneity in close quarters pistol exchanges, through bone, light fabrics, and sheet metal doors led inexorably to the development of a new pistol cartridge, spawning the S&W 10mm & 1076 semi auto pistol. A gun that doubled standard revolver capacities & has the terminal ballistics in a 180gr rnd near that of a 145gr .357mag---its pretty bad ass.

Up until recently I only had six. After a friends passing, his widow gave me a 1930 J.P. Sauer and Sohn 7.65mm -.32ACP pistol, a 1944 Steyr-Daimler-Puch Mauser 98 converted into a sporter in Rem. 7mm mag. and a WWII M1 .30 carbine made by IBM Corp.

Up until recently I only had six. After a friends passing, his widow gave me a 1930 J.P. Sauer and Sohn 7.65mm -.32ACP pistol, a 1944 Steyr-Daimler-Puch Mauser 98 converted into a sporter in Rem. 7mm mag. and a WWII M1 .30 carbine made by IBM Corp.

Those are some unique guns--but the pièce de'resistánce is that IBM M1.30car, if you ever get tired of it Cruz, please remember you're uncle Tony!!!

On the 10mm. Some Fed depts have used a MP-5 chambered for the 10mm. Called the MP-5-10. My neighbor had one issued to him for awhile. Wish he wasn't retired now. He could get some strange ammo from the gov't. Like 357 rounds loaded with lightweight aluminum bullets that would not penetrate the skin of an aircraft. 12ga. shells loaded with a bunch of little flechettes.

adeluca73 wrote:
Not entirely. Yes, the investigation revealed reloading revolvers under duress was problematic, and yes, only some were wearing light body armor, and only a few of the cars had riot shotguns, however the assaialant with the Ruger Ranch rifle was shot 10+ times, he continued to fight between 5 & 6 min after sustaining the first shot, which the forensic coroner stated was the actual lethal shot, but lack of penetration permitted him to continue fighting, firing 45-50 shots, seriously wounding 4 Agents, 2 mortally. Thus the lack of ballistic penetration & poor bullet homogeneity in close quarters pistol exchanges, through bone, light fabrics, and sheet metal doors led inexorably to the development of a new pistol cartridge, spawning the S&W 10mm & 1076 semi auto pistol. A gun that doubled standard revolver capacities & has the terminal ballistics in a 180gr rnd near that of a 145gr .357mag---its pretty bad ass.

RustyPW wrote:On the 10mm. Some Fed depts have used a MP-5 chambered for the 10mm. Called the MP-5-10. My neighbor had one issued to him for awhile. Wish he wasn't retired now. He could get some strange ammo from the gov't. Like 357 rounds loaded with lightweight aluminum bullets that would not penetrate the skin of an aircraft. 12ga. shells loaded with a bunch of little flechettes.

Imagine 105mm howitzer rounds fill with 3" flachettes. When arty units are getting overrun, the fire control sgt orders "GUNS TO 0 (deg inclination), flachettes, fire at will" , some f'd up photos in the West Point museum during Vietnam when units were overrun...lots of VC stapled to trees, bbls melted, 100% losses.

RustyPW wrote:On the 10mm. Some Fed depts have used a MP-5 chambered for the 10mm. Called the MP-5-10. My neighbor had one issued to him for awhile. Wish he wasn't retired now. He could get some strange ammo from the gov't. Like 357 rounds loaded with lightweight aluminum bullets that would not penetrate the skin of an aircraft. 12ga. shells loaded with a bunch of little flechettes.

Imagine 105mm howitzer rounds fill with 3" flachettes. When arty units are getting overrun, the fire control sgt orders "GUNS TO 0 (deg inclination), flachettes, fire at will" , some f'd up photos in the West Point museum during Vietnam when units were overrun...lots of VC stapled to trees, bbls melted, 100% losses.

I seen it. Used to work for the DoD back in the late '70's. Seen a lot of weird and strange stuff that we were testing back then.

RustyPW wrote:The semi-auto legal now. BUT the Game Commission still hasn't decided on what type (style) of semi it will allow. A hearing is coming up shortly. One guy on the Commission is against the AR, AK type rifles.

If you don't live in Philly in the east, or the "burgh in the west. You live in Pennsyltucky, the land between the big cities. When someone asks where I live. That what I tell them, and you should see the look on their faces.

Yup. Good ole Pennsyltucky.

One of my son's football coaches is a Game Officer (what do they call them now, Conservation Officer or something like that) he says it is all but a done deal. They have the info coming out to train on enforcement, etc. I have not ordered the barrel for my new upper yet just in case the hearing does not go our way but I am pretty optimistic. They already drafted the rules and are supposed to vote final approval at the meeting March 27-28.

New Rules from the proposal now:

Semiautomatic rifles in .22 caliber or less that propel single-projectile ammunition and semiautomatic shotguns 10 gauge or smaller propelling ammunition not larger than No. 4 lead – also No. 2 steel or No. 4 composition or alloy – would be legal firearms arms for small-game seasons under a regulation preliminarily approved by the Board of Game Commissioners.

Semiautomatic firearms that propel single-projectile ammunition also would be legal sporting arms for woodchucks and furbearers. There is no caliber restriction for woodchucks or furbearers.

For big game, semiautomatic centerfire rifles and shotguns would be legal sporting arms.

Full-metal-jacket ammunition would continue to be prohibited for deer, bear and elk hunting.

Semiautomatics would be legal in seasons in which modern firearms can be used to take deer, black bears, elk and fall turkeys.

Air-guns would be legal for small game in calibers from .177 to .22 that propel single-projectile pellets or bullets, under the regulatory changes preliminarily approved by the Board of Game Commissioners.

For woodchucks and furbearers, air-guns must be at least .22 caliber and propel a single-projectile pellet or bullet. BB ammunition is not authorized for small game, furbearers or woodchucks."

Sorry w2dodge, we kinda hijacked here. We can take this to a new thread if you want.

Shot down... Bad pun intended...

Yesterday, the Pennsylvania Game Commission chose not to respect the rich hunting heritage of Pennsylvania gun owners by rejecting the rule which would have allowed hunters to use semi-automatic rifles in some of the most popular seasons throughout the state. By excluding the use of semi-automatic rifles for big game seasons, they have essentially eradicated the efforts and progress made last session with the passage and enactment of House Bill 236.

Don't think for 1 minute that that wasn't planned, even before last session. Thats how the anti-gunners work. They have infiltrated just about every organization that will let them further their cause. There will be hoop-la, then they will seem like they are giving you something, and the hoop-la dies down & everyone says "see, you were all worried about nothing", and then BAMM, they blindside you with something else.

Same with the ammo IMHO. Do you REALLY think the D.E.C./B.L.M./D.N.R. really care about the lead from shotgun shells, when they could make a 10,000% bigger difference if they went after the big corporations that have been polluting our water/marshes for decades and still are ? It is a way for the Gov't to ban certain kinds of ammo, especially from people or gun ranges that buy them in large quanities. Some small stores or ranges can't afford to "eat" their surplus lead ammo & there will prob be a few who close their doors as a result.

Throw a frog into hot water & it jumps out. Put a frog in cold water & slowly turn up the heat & it doesn't even realize it is boiling to death. Thats their approach.

Actually we are our own worst enemy on this one. There are a lot of gun owners and hunters in PA that think this is a terrible idea. The comments, supposedly from hunters, were overwhelmingly against. Maybe the next meeting will get it there.

Wait until the anti gunners come after their evil center fire "sniper rifles". The wailing and crying will be epic. I though maybe the Elmer Fudd brigade was finally willing to join the 19th Century but I guess was a little too optimistic.

We have been texting around about it wondering if we could get enough people to not buy a license this season and send them a letter indicating that is why. They cry every year that the numbers are going down. You would think they would be motivated to get more people interested. They probably wouldn't care unless it was hundreds/thousands.

Everyone I know quit hunting and fishing, including me. Just got tired of being stopped & harassed, sometimes 4 times in 1 day by the same 2 DEC officers. If that ain't harassment, i don't know what is.

TwinStick wrote:Everyone I know quit hunting and fishing, including me. Just got tired of being stopped & harassed, sometimes 4 times in 1 day by the same 2 DEC officers. If that ain't harassment, i don't know what is.

Think I've made my stance clear on how I deal with rights infringements

It does. I'm getting 5 shot groups at .7moa and 10shot .9moa at 200 yards. Average group is right at 1 1/2". At 500yards it opens up to almost 2 moa for some strange reason but at 600 I'm around 1.5 Moa. Could just be me. But I won't complain with a gas gun shooting 10" targets at 600yards.

Edit
It's shooting a bit slower than normal but it was just below freezing that day. About 60fps slower than 20°C. It's usually over 2800fps but the sd has been consistent

As temps go up, so does the velocity. Ever chrony at 0F, and then chrony at every 10deg increase? Amazing at how much of an increase from 0 to 100F. Old trick in the winter hunting was to keep your bullets under your coat when shooting long range to keep them warm. And leave them in the sun before firing for an increase in velocity.

I have loads developed at -10°C and others at +20°. I'm fairly meticulous with my data book. I found that h1000 and 8208 have been the least tempature sensitive powders for the most part. The winter loads are over pressure in the summer so they are separated. I re zero just before hunting season too with both my hunting rifles. 300 win mag for anything over 400 yards and everything under is with my 338 federal.
I have data from -35° up to +40 for my 300win mag. 150fps difference between the two extremes. I can add just shy of 2.5g more powder before pressure signs below freezing temps. It brings it back up 70fps.
208g AMax with h1000 2910fps. Love that rifle