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Michael Bush says...

He states that clipping a queen doesn't prevent swarming as the bees will just wait for a virgin and run off with her instead anyway. (Paraphrase)

My question is, isn't it still a strong benefit to clipping a queen? I mean, if you're going to have a queen depart, wouldn't you rather have an instantly viable hive with your mated queen ready to go instead of losing ( potentially if you can't capture) your mated queen AND your bees, you'd just lose your bees?

It seems like clipping would save at least 28 days of precious productivity at minimum, maybe 38 days maximum, until a Virginia hatches, breeds and gets laying?

I don't clip currently but this seems like a sound reason to clip.

This year I started two hives. At present I have 3 hives. NONE of my purchased queens are with me anymore because they all got rolled or swarmed. Hence, this clipping would seem to have helped me get a modest harvest instead of none because I'd have gained another month of hive productivity.

Re: Michael Bush says...

A clipped queen may attempt to fly anyway, then fall to the ground and be unable to get back home.
The swarm will return home briefly, but it will soon try again—often taking off with a recently hatched virgin queen.
In addition, clipped queens are often superseded more quickly than those with whole wings.
Clipping can end in disaster, especially if the beekeeper accidentally nics the thorax or snips a leg—so leave your queen intact and find some other way to reduce swarming.

Re: Michael Bush says...

Re: Michael Bush says...

If you fail to detect that the colony is ready to swarm, and you are able to check your bee yard at the time of day they usually swarm, clipping the queen can be of benefit. When the prime swarm occurs, the queen will either jump off the landing board, run under the bottom board, or remain in the colony. The queenless swarm will often cluster for a short time but it will return to the parent colony. If you are there to see the swarm leave and return, you can then make a split. You will find the queen on the ground in a small group of bees that will cluster around her. If you can't find her the returned swarm can still be used with swarm cells.

If you are not able to check the bee yard at the time swarms usually leave clipping is of no use other than to mark the queens birth in odd or even years.

Re: Michael Bush says...

We are of the opinion that clipping is one important part of swarm control. Along with other measures, it gives you a "get out of jail free" card. In cases where inclement weather delays the normally scheduled inspection, you will typically have numerous failed swarm attempts in the yard, and a few two queen hives. We have seen NO evidence of successful swarms in the first round. If you are careless, they can restart the process and swarm on the second round.

It is your call. Clippping is another tool, are you talented enough to use it?

Re: Michael Bush says...

I don't have a dog in this fight. But here is what Michael's web site actually says regarding clipping the queen:

In my experience they will still swarm. It may buy you some time if you're paying attention (like the hives are in your back yard and you check everyday for swarms). They will attempt to swarm and the clipped queen won't be able to fly. They will go back and then they will leave with the first virgin swarm queen to emerge. Counting on clipping to stop them from swarming will end in failure.

3. (Biggest reason) you have a perfectly good, fully drawn hive with a not yet laying virgin costing you a month of production

So it seems to me, the thing one should care most about is retention of a viable, mated queen. A virgin swarm is better because they have to draw comb anyway so there is no measurable productivity loss because the queen has no place to lay for a couple weeks anyway.

So for the reasons above, I ask why there isn't more emphasis on keeping the mated queen in her hive and letting the Virgins swarm for chances of a split or catching a swarm back.

Re: Michael Bush says...

The biggest reason for not letting a hive swarm (around here) is that you can just about write off any surplus honey production from the remaining colony. Now if you are fortunate enough so as to capture the swarm, let it build up and then combine it with the parent colony before your flow, you'll have a very productive colony. And you get to choose your queen!

Re: Michael Bush says...

i really see no benefit to clipping a queens wings. other than a power trip by the beek. im sorry to be blunt but im just being honest. if you cant check for superseding, swarming or other upcoming events with the queen then maybe you A) shouldnt be beekeeping or B) should check more often or try outyarding closer than a million miles away. sorry, clipping and cropping animals is just a pet peeve of mine and my wifes. and clipping the queen will not stop swarming. once the swarming alert hits the hive there really is no stopping it. ive even split hives that are ready to swarm and had both splits swarm hahaha.

Re: Michael Bush says...

Originally Posted by Rookhawk

Why are swarms bad?
3. (Biggest reason) you have a perfectly good, fully drawn hive with a not yet laying virgin costing you a month of production

One of the biggest reasons that conscientious beekeepers try to suppress swarms is that they may become a hazard to the beekeeper's neighbors. In the wall of a house or business, a hollow tree by a sidewalk or playground or any other number of places where they can be a problem.
Having said that...I'm with MB on this....clipping doesn't work.

Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted. - Emerson

Re: Michael Bush says...

There's nothing more disheartening than having 2/3 of your bees in the top of a tree. I've been around beekeeping long enough to know that 70% of your hives will swarm no matter how much empty equipment is sitting on top of them. Most bees swarm 5-6 days before the virgins emerge. Clipping buys you a week of production even if you do nothing. It is likely that less bees will leave with a virgin than will leave in a prime swarm with the old queen. Clip that queen before the end of march. There are two wings on each side. Clip the wing on one side at least as short as the shorter inner wing and preferably a hair more. If you clip her too short she can still fly. She'll probably be superceded by the end of the summer but at least your bees won't be 90 feet in the top of a tree. You'll either find her on the ground in front of the hive or lose her altogether eventually and then you'll have to figure out what to do with a hive full of queen cells. There are lots of options...just don't cut all the queen cells until you are sure you have eggs or a live queen.

Re: Michael Bush says...

Originally Posted by Tim B

I've been around beekeeping long enough to know that 70% of your hives will swarm no matter how much empty equipment is sitting on top of them.

If adding more equipment is your primary form of swarm management...then you are probably underestimating the number that will swarm. I believe that if all I did was add supers, I'd have close to 100% in the trees.

Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted. - Emerson

Re: Michael Bush says...

Well, it appears we have been doing things WAY wrong for years. Can't say we have proof of a successful swarm in years, and clipping is one part of our technique. Maybe it is the rest of the technique that is more important than the actual clipping, seeing as how it is just a "get out of jail free" card. .

So you guys do as you wish, we'll keep clipping queens and clipping our finger nails(how much different is it?).

Re: Michael Bush says...

Originally Posted by scorpionmain

A clipped queen may attempt to fly anyway, then fall to the ground and be unable to get back home.
The swarm will return home briefly, but it will soon try again—often taking off with a recently hatched virgin queen.
In addition, clipped queens are often superseded more quickly than those with whole wings.
Clipping can end in disaster, especially if the beekeeper accidentally nics the thorax or snips a leg—so leave your queen intact and find some other way to reduce swarming.

Re: Michael Bush says...

Originally Posted by Roland

So you guys do as you wish, we'll keep clipping queens

Just goes to show you that there's no 'one size fits all' method of beekeeping.
Is it your opinion Roland that by clipping your queens, that once they've attempted and failed to swarm with the original queen....they won't try again?

Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted. - Emerson

Re: Michael Bush says...

IF I were home all day everyday it might be worth clipping the ones in the home yard as I could check for swarms and retrieve them from the ground or intervene. The problem is since I'm not, I don't know they are trying to swarm and they swarm anyway, so I don't see any advantage.