I think it's really unfair to gang up on Joel Schumacher when Tim Burton didn't do the Caped Crusader any favors himself. I actually think that "Batman Forever" was an improvement over "Batman Returns" in part because it tried to distance itself from the twisted, overstuffed, and sinister aspect of Burton's mindset.

Lets see what Tim Burton brought to the table when it came to Batman:
*Batman is a supporting character in his own movies (this is especially the case in "Batman Returns", where he's overshadowed by Penguin, Catwoman and Christopher Walken)

*Batman brutally and intentionally kills his enemies with zero remorse. Tim Burton seemed to think that Batman should be some quirky, neurotic psycho with a death wish, not a heroic adventure, who is more altruistic in his goals.

*Making the Joker the killer of Bruce Wayne's parents instead of Joe Chill.

*Lando Calrissian as Two-Face. Since when was Harvey Dent ever a black man? Burton also envisioned Marlon Wayans as Robin.

*The Penguin as a bile spitting, mutant/sewer rat instead of the level headed, gentleman criminal as he was originally intended to be.

*Catwoman as a bipolar, ex-secretary, who mystically (and magically gains martial arts and gymnastic skills in the process) gets revived by alley cats after her boss pushes her out of the window.

*Batman being made to look like a complete doofus and tool in "Batman Returns" (especially by Catwoman).

*Not showing enough of what inspired Bruce Wayne to become Batman in the first place. All that we know is that his parents got killed in front of him, and now his a reclusive nerd, who wants revenge (he uses his guise as an outlet to beat people who look at him funny up) against the world.

How can you even like Batman Forever? With all those colors it's not even the right atmosphere for a Batman film.

Burton didn't make the Joker the killer, the writers did. He also did a hell of a lot better job then Joel could have ever done. His films were directed toward adult fans of Batman and not the kiddies.

How can you even like Batman Forever? With all those colors it's not even the right atmosphere for a Batman film.

Burton didn't make the Joker the killer, the writers did. He also did a hell of a lot better job then Joel could have ever done. His films were directed toward adult fans of Batman and not the kiddies.

Tim Burton supported the idea of the Joker being the killer of Bruce Wayne's parents from the very jump. Sam Hamm was reluctant to the plan, since it wasn't true to the source material. However, the film was in production during a writers strike, for which Hamm had to participate in. During this down period, Burton was able to alter the script to his liking. Also, blockbusters like Batman films should be directed towards a general audience. The reasons why "Batman Returns" and "Batman & Robin" didn't fare as well as the other two films because one pandered too much to adults and the other pandered too much towards kids (there was no balance).

I think it's really unfair to gang up on Joel Schumacher when Tim Burton didn't do the Caped Crusader any favors himself.

Not only restaured the dark atmopsphere and the badass personality to Batman, not only gave him the all black armoured suit, but Burton also made the franchise a popular one even till today and many of the aspects of his movies were taken by other directors for their own superhero movies.

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Originally Posted by TMC1982

I actually think that "Batman Forever" was an improvement over "Batman Returns" in part because it tried to distance itself from the twisted, overstuffed, and sinister aspect of Burton's mindset.

Because what do "twisted" and "sinister" have to do with Batman, as opposed to Schumacher movie’s more accurate kid-friendly and flashy aspects.

I guess if we really try we can always find more value in a zanny Riddler and a Joker-impersonator ever-laughing comedic Two-Face than in the perfect Pfeiffer’s Catwoman and the really tragic Penguin.

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Originally Posted by TMC1982

*Batman is a supporting character in his own movies (this is especially the case in "Batman Returns", where he's overshadowed by Penguin, Catwoman and Christopher Walken)

Overshadowed? Batman is Batman, is still the hero and at the same time he remains in shadows as he’s supposed to be.

I’m not saying that this is the only way to portray the character , but the overshadowed argument is simply a reaction to the average more screentime = more importance formula.

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Originally Posted by TMC1982

*Batman brutally and intentionally kills his enemies with zero remorse. Tim Burton seemed to think that Batman should be some quirky, neurotic psycho with a death wish, not a heroic adventure, who is more altruistic in his goals.

Tim Burton seems to know what the original Batman was like.

Burton’s Batman is quite altruistic... to good innocent people, that is.

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Originally Posted by TMC1982

*The Penguin as a bile spitting, mutant/sewer rat instead of the level headed, gentleman criminal as he was originally intended to be.

Luckily, he’s now a truly moving man-monster and not the average chubby guy in a tuxedo. Penguin was greatly imroved from the less than good original concept.

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Originally Posted by TMC1982

*Lando Calrissian as Two-Face. Since when was Harvey Dent ever a black man? Burton also envisioned Marlon Wayans as Robin.

Burton considered a Robin before realising he – as many bat-fans – doesn’t want Robin anywhere next to Batman.

And gimme a break, we have had a black Kingpin and we’ll have a black Nick Fury. Even the animated series followed the black Harvey.

Oh and the name of the actor is not Lando Calrissian. For that matter should I say that Schuimacher gave us Ace Ventura as Riddler and Marshall Gerard as Two-face?

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Originally Posted by TMC1982

*Catwoman as a bipolar, ex-secretary, who mystically (and magically gains martial arts and gymnastic skills in the process) gets revived by alley cats after her boss pushes her out of the window.

She’s never revived by cats. She never died.

And who’s to say she amongst other activities, used to learn martial arts in her free time before the accident?

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Originally Posted by TMC1982

*Batman being made to look like a complete doofus and tool in "Batman Returns" (especially by Catwoman).

Batman has traditionally have Catwoman as one of his weakness. He’s in love with her. That doesn’t make him a tool.

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Originally Posted by TMC1982

*Not showing enough of what inspired Bruce Wayne to become Batman in the first place. All that we know is that his parents got killed in front of him, and now his a reclusive nerd, who wants revenge (he uses his guise as an outlet to beat people who look at him funny up) against the world.

Nerd? Oh, I guess he wears glasses you felt compelled to make a cheap charicature.

And you gave yourself the answer. His parents got killed. There’s your motivation.

Tim Burton supported the idea of the Joker being the killer of Bruce Wayne's parents from the very jump. Sam Hamm was reluctant to the plan, since it wasn't true to the source material.

Wrong. Batman used to be non indulgent towards criminals' lives since 1939.

In those comics as in Burton's movies he's too busy cleaning his city from criminals, defending the lives of the innocent good people to worry about what his image could be in terms of the comfortable classic morals.

Source material? Burton was faithful to Batman’s first incarnation which was later changed.

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Originally Posted by TMC1982

However, the film was in production during a writers strike, for which Hamm had to participate in. During this down period, Burton was able to alter the script to his liking.

Tim Burton supported the idea of the Joker being the killer of Bruce Wayne's parents from the very jump. Sam Hamm was reluctant to the plan, since it wasn't true to the source material. However, the film was in production during a writers strike, for which Hamm had to participate in. During this down period, Burton was able to alter the script to his liking. Also, blockbusters like Batman films should be directed towards a general audience. The reasons why "Batman Returns" and "Batman & Robin" didn't fare as well as the other two films because one pandered too much to adults and the other pandered too much towards kids (there was no balance).

Can we stop the *****ing and leave the movies alone? It was 19 years ago, get over it. Nothing is going to change so arguing in circles is pointless. I just take them for what they are now, some pretty awesome movies.

Can we stop the *****ing and leave the movies alone? It was 19 years ago, get over it. Nothing is going to change so arguing in circles is pointless. I just take them for what they are now, some pretty awesome movies.

I agree, I only like discussing the good things about the films, though most will still whine about their dislikes of the films, I say the same, leave them alone and appreciate them for what they are, damn good batman films!

I'm not critisizing your opinion, but I'm really interested to hear you elaborate on why you prefer "Batman Forever" to the Burton films.

I find it refreshing actually, since the general concensus here (myself included) is the other way around.

CFE

Simple.

[Don't get me wrong Batman(89) is an amazing movie when it comes to atmosphere and design]

I think the whole portrayal of Batman/Bruce Wayne is somehow... off. It's not that they changed the source material, that happens all the time and is for a movie who has only a restricted time frame somehow necessary. But you should - at least - get the essence of the material right. But Batman being a strange guy, totally emotionless and deranged doesn't feel like "the Batman" I read when I was young. Batman was actually a cool guy to me to whom you could look up - but Burton's Batman/Bruce Wayne... he is a pathetic looser. And what do you expect from a script writen by a guy who says things like "Batman is basically an insane guy who ****s up his love life". The changes with the Penguin... man! some call it "better than the source material" but... what's the point? He isn't THE Penguin anymore. He is a sewer monster out to kill the firstborn? WTF? They could have made the Penguin a Jedi Knight and some people would scream "Yeah, better than the source". But if you don't like the original character... why do you use him? And Catwoman? You know what the basic character gimmick was? She was a thief. Burton's Cat-Zombie is not a thief at all. (I don't have much to say about Nicholson's Joker. I think he did a decent job, but HE could have done better. He didn't play himself, he played Cesar-Romero-gone-homicidal.

And don't start with the illogical things. Nobody knows about the Wayne murders. Yeah right. A parade of gangsters and no police... yes, of course. Penguin's men manipulating the Batmobile. It has all been discussed before.

And Batman Forever is really a kind of redemption. Batman is so heroic in this movie. He says things like "Harvey, you need help!" and shows compassion (Keaton Batman would've probably thrown a grenade or something like that). His Bruce Wayne acts like in the comics. This movie is really underrated. The design is in fact too neon and too crazy, no not even in the Silver Age Gotham City looked like this. And the scene where he saves the doctor AND Robin has actually more real symbolism than anything Burton did. The Riddler and Two-Face are not exactly the way I would imagine them. The Riddler is too crazy, he is almost the Joker and Two-Face flips his coin until it is right for him? WTF?

*Batman brutally and intentionally kills his enemies with zero remorse. Tim Burton seemed to think that Batman should be some quirky, neurotic psycho with a death wish, not a heroic adventure, who is more altruistic in his goals.

I fail to see how Batman's actions in BATMAN and BATMAN RETURNS cannot be described as altruistic in some regard. He clearly was out to protect the innocent and to better Gotham City.

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*Catwoman as a bipolar, ex-secretary, who mystically (and magically gains martial arts and gymnastic skills in the process) gets revived by alley cats after her boss pushes her out of the window.

One of the original versions of Catwoman's origin was that she was an airline stewardess who got in a crash, had amnesia, and became Catwoman.

True story.

The writers needed a reason for a woman to dress up like a cat. They found one.

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*Batman being made to look like a complete doofus and tool in "Batman Returns" (especially by Catwoman).

I'm sorry..."tool"?

Have we never read a comic book where the villain bested Batman? What do you call what The Scarecrow did to him the first time they met in BATMAN BEGINS?

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*Not showing enough of what inspired Bruce Wayne to become Batman in the first place. All that we know is that his parents got killed in front of him, and now his a reclusive nerd, who wants revenge (he uses his guise as an outlet to beat people who look at him funny up) against the world.

I'd argue that while it wasn't expressly stated, the movie did pretty much show why Bruce Wayne became Batman. To fight crime that otherwise could not be fought through normal means. The state of Gotham was pretty clearly shown during the movie. Mobs carving up pieces of it, innocent people being harmed/accosted...I mean, "good opposing evil" is not a difficult or a deep concept.

__________________
Writer and Lyricist of GOTHAM'S KNIGHT: THE BATMAN MUSICAL

And if I'm right
The future's looking bright
A symbol in the skies at night

I think the whole portrayal of Batman/Bruce Wayne is somehow... off. It's not that they changed the source material, that happens all the time and is for a movie who has only a restricted time frame somehow necessary. But you should - at least - get the essence of the material right. But Batman being a strange guy, totally emotionless and deranged doesn't feel like "the Batman" I read when I was young.

Batman was not totally emotionless in either movie. He was cracking jokes, displaying emotion, etc. He wasn't as outspoken as he generally is, but that was half the point.

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Batman was actually a cool guy to me to whom you could look up - but Burton's Batman/Bruce Wayne... he is a pathetic looser.

How so?

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And what do you expect from a script writen by a guy who says things like "Batman is basically an insane guy who ****s up his love life".

Take the quote in context. He wasn't talking about his entire philosophy on Batman, he was talking about the man's romantic life. And he's right. Being Batman DOES mess up his love life, repeatedly, both then and now.

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And Catwoman? You know what the basic character gimmick was?

She was a criminal who dressed in a cat motif?

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She was a thief.

Every single one of his villains was a thief when they were created. That's not really a clever concept. Besides...she stole his heart, didn't she?

__________________
Writer and Lyricist of GOTHAM'S KNIGHT: THE BATMAN MUSICAL

And if I'm right
The future's looking bright
A symbol in the skies at night

Batman was not totally emotionless in either movie. He was cracking jokes, displaying emotion, etc. He wasn't as outspoken as he generally is, but that was half the point.

He was nothing like the comics.

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How so?

A guy who sits in his chair and cries all the time because he has lost his parents 20 years ago is a loser.

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Take the quote in context. He wasn't talking about his entire philosophy on Batman, he was talking about the man's romantic life. And he's right. Being Batman DOES mess up his love life, repeatedly, both then and now.

It's just his view on Batman. Reading his introduction to his "Blind Justice" story gave me the same vibe.

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She was a criminal who dressed in a cat motif?

Yeah, licked by radioactive cats.

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Every single one of his villains was a thief when they were created. That's not really a clever concept. Besides...she stole his heart, didn't she?

How deep!!! That's almost "Burton" to me, you know "Hello There" / "Hell Here" like. What a genius!

[Don't get me wrong Batman(89) is an amazing movie when it comes to atmosphere and design]

I think the whole portrayal of Batman/Bruce Wayne is somehow... off. It's not that they changed the source material, that happens all the time and is for a movie who has only a restricted time frame somehow necessary. But you should - at least - get the essence of the material right. But Batman being a strange guy, totally emotionless and deranged doesn't feel like "the Batman" I read when I was young. Batman was actually a cool guy to me to whom you could look up - but Burton's Batman/Bruce Wayne... he is a pathetic looser. And what do you expect from a script writen by a guy who says things like "Batman is basically an insane guy who ****s up his love life". The changes with the Penguin... man! some call it "better than the source material" but... what's the point? He isn't THE Penguin anymore. He is a sewer monster out to kill the firstborn? WTF? They could have made the Penguin a Jedi Knight and some people would scream "Yeah, better than the source". But if you don't like the original character... why do you use him? And Catwoman? You know what the basic character gimmick was? She was a thief. Burton's Cat-Zombie is not a thief at all. (I don't have much to say about Nicholson's Joker. I think he did a decent job, but HE could have done better. He didn't play himself, he played Cesar-Romero-gone-homicidal.

And don't start with the illogical things. Nobody knows about the Wayne murders. Yeah right. A parade of gangsters and no police... yes, of course. Penguin's men manipulating the Batmobile. It has all been discussed before.

And Batman Forever is really a kind of redemption. Batman is so heroic in this movie. He says things like "Harvey, you need help!" and shows compassion (Keaton Batman would've probably thrown a grenade or something like that). His Bruce Wayne acts like in the comics. This movie is really underrated. The design is in fact too neon and too crazy, no not even in the Silver Age Gotham City looked like this. And the scene where he saves the doctor AND Robin has actually more real symbolism than anything Burton did. The Riddler and Two-Face are not exactly the way I would imagine them. The Riddler is too crazy, he is almost the Joker and Two-Face flips his coin until it is right for him? WTF?

That's because Burton's vision was based on the 1940's Batman.

Bruce Wayne always screws up his love life because he can't really have one. The only real relationships he has is when he is Batman.

Zombie? How? She never died.

The mystery behind the Wayne murders was added for the general public. It's like Dr. Chase says in BF: Why would a man do this?

Yeah? Then show me the comic where Bruce Wayne seems to suffer from something like the Asperger syndrome or some attention deficit thing. He was totally unsure of himself. oh, and when did Bruce Wayne ever wear glasses? Does he wear contact lenses when he is out to fight crime? That's just something they added to show us "Ohh sis guy is intelligent". How deep, Mr Burton!

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Please tell me you're not basing this opinion on the ONE scene where we see him sitting in his study in the dark in Returns. And he's not crying, either.

I base it on the few scenes we see with "Bruce Wayne". He is a totally disturbed guy with some serious social phobias, it seems.

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Radioactive cats? LOL! Were they glowing or something, because I must have missed that

Yesyesyes, these things we always hear. It's not the killing, really. The 1940s Batman was not some depressed guy. As Bruce Wayne he was already a playboy with witty remarks. His interactions with Gordon and Julie Madison showed this. The "original Batman" threw out "one-liners" all the time. Hell, he even stopped to ask for the way once! Did I mention that this guy had friends? No. And in the original comics there was no Alfred. So. No.

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Bruce Wayne always screws up his love life because he can't really have one. The only real relationships he has is when he is Batman.

Modern psychobabble. In the original comics he had a fiancee.

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Zombie? How? She never died.

If you embrace Burton's depth you will see that she died but she has 9 lives or something like that! How clever! Zen galore!

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The mystery behind the Wayne murders was added for the general public. It's like Dr. Chase says in BF: Why would a man do this?

it's S-T-U-P-I.D. Perhaps they (Knox and Vale) didn't know it, because they are to young but they could have just asked some older guy.

I base it on the few scenes we see with "Bruce Wayne". He is a totally disturbed guy with some serious social phobias, it seems.

Bruce is, was, and will probably continue to be a disturbed guy. Childhood trauma is the cause.

As for social phobias, he wasn't the Phantom of the Opera you're trying to make him out to be. Note the party wherein he calmly interacts with others. He's not sweating, scratching the back of his neck, or stammering.