Because I have taken my time in figuring things out, and have attempted to be meticulous in the process, I am confident that wherever I end up (likely Eastern Catholicism) will be for good.

Catholicism? I thought you were an Orthodox. unless i am mistaken.

No, I am not Orthodox. As I have said in other threads, I have studied Orthodoxy quite a bit and continue to study it, but in the end I found myself leaning towards Rome. That being said, I still have a great love for the Eastern Christian tradition, which is why I feel at home as an Eastern Catholic.

what does your priest think about this position of yours? is he ok with you being an easter catholic, rather than Roman Catholic? Or have you not told him?

I am 1,000,000% sure that if I were to ever apostate from Orthodoxy, it wouldn't be for another Christian denomination. I am 1,000,000% sure that Orthodoxy is the real deal and the most reasonable Christianity. If I were to ever apostate, it would be to an entirely different religion--probably either Buddhism or atheism.

buddhism I understand. But if you truly believe in God, then why would you become an atheist?

Ah so now you get to determine what is a fact? So much more for the scientific method and all of the progress we've made...

Nope, Actually Science(Creation ex Nihilo, First Uncaused Cause, The Shroud, "macro-evolution" being a myth, Intelligent Design Fact, Mind-Body Dualism being a Fact/Mind is Immaterial), Philosophy("naturalism" is impossible, Morality), History(The Bible, Jesus Christ Resurrection being a Fact of Life), Logical(Ontological, God has to necessarily exist) determines what is Fact, and Science says that Factually, 100%, God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) exists and The Bible is The Objective Truth.

now, what proof and evidence is there against these Facts?

None.

although I believe in the resurrection of Jesus. I want you to prove it to me. Can you give me proof outside the world of religion. Give me historians talking about some guy who happenned to be raised from the dead, in jerusalem. and who have scientific evidence, to support it.

I am 1,000,000% sure that if I were to ever apostate from Orthodoxy, it wouldn't be for another Christian denomination. I am 1,000,000% sure that Orthodoxy is the real deal and the most reasonable Christianity. If I were to ever apostate, it would be to an entirely different religion--probably either Buddhism or atheism.

buddhism I understand. But if you truly believe in God, then why would you become an atheist?

The ultimate freedom to do whatever I want without having to worry about repercussions in the next life and guilt. If I ever converted to atheism, it would probably be more out of desire--my mind WANTING God to not exist so I could do what I want--opposed to actually believing that He doesn't exist.

shouldn't we christians do that instead? I mean. The true God, gave us a brain for a reason (shouldn't we use it?), and as for compassion, isn't that the duty of christians? yet everyone else does it better, and we only do better in theory.

shouldn't we christians do that instead? I mean. The true God, gave us a brain for a reason (shouldn't we use it?), and as for compassion, isn't that the duty of christians? yet everyone else does it better, and we only do better in theory.

I am 1,000,000% sure that if I were to ever apostate from Orthodoxy, it wouldn't be for another Christian denomination. I am 1,000,000% sure that Orthodoxy is the real deal and the most reasonable Christianity. If I were to ever apostate, it would be to an entirely different religion--probably either Buddhism or atheism.

buddhism I understand. But if you truly believe in God, then why would you become an atheist?

The ultimate freedom to do whatever I want without having to worry about repercussions in the next life and guilt. If I ever converted to atheism, it would probably be more out of desire--my mind WANTING God to not exist so I could do what I want--opposed to actually believing that He doesn't exist.

What about repercussions in this life?

« Last Edit: January 06, 2013, 11:40:50 PM by Jetavan »

Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.Extra caritatem nulla salus.In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness". सर्वभूतहितἌνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas GandhiY dduw bo'r diolch.

shouldn't we christians do that instead? I mean. The true God, gave us a brain for a reason (shouldn't we use it?), and as for compassion, isn't that the duty of christians? yet everyone else does it better, and we only do better in theory.

Compassion probably wasn't the right word. But we give worship go to God, out of which springs forth love and compassion. This shouldn't be a rejection of reason, but it does place the priorities of reason. That is, we love people because of our faith, not because we reasoned it advantageous. We study the universe as a marvel of creation, not as an exercise of our ego.

God then sets the boundaries and focus in life, not what we determine from our own flawed reasoning with the lack of knowledge we receive confused with our emotions.

That is, we love people because of our faith, not because we reasoned it advantageous.

Shouldn't we love people because of both faith and reason?

Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.Extra caritatem nulla salus.In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness". सर्वभूतहितἌνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas GandhiY dduw bo'r diolch.

shouldn't we christians do that instead? I mean. The true God, gave us a brain for a reason (shouldn't we use it?), and as for compassion, isn't that the duty of christians? yet everyone else does it better, and we only do better in theory.

Ah so now you get to determine what is a fact? So much more for the scientific method and all of the progress we've made...

Nope, Actually Science(Creation ex Nihilo, First Uncaused Cause, The Shroud, "macro-evolution" being a myth, Intelligent Design Fact, Mind-Body Dualism being a Fact/Mind is Immaterial), Philosophy("naturalism" is impossible, Morality), History(The Bible, Jesus Christ Resurrection being a Fact of Life), Logical(Ontological, God has to necessarily exist) determines what is Fact, and Science says that Factually, 100%, God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) exists and The Bible is The Objective Truth.

now, what proof and evidence is there against these Facts?

None.

although I believe in the resurrection of Jesus. I want you to prove it to me. Can you give me proof outside the world of religion. Give me historians talking about some guy who happenned to be raised from the dead, in jerusalem. and who have scientific evidence, to support it.

Tweety, not that I agree with SBC94's approach, theories or rants, but are you really unaware of these historians, or just pulling SBC'S chain? I'm referring to Josephus, Ignatius, Polycarp, Eusebius, et al...

I have learned to never say never. When I decided to become more serious with my faith I said that I will never be anything else than a Roman Catholic. In 2010, because of my growing knowledge of the faith I said I wanted to visit Eastern Catholic Churches, which at that time I recently learned about, and learn more about them. The moment I stepped onto a Ukrainian Catholic Church I wanted to become part of it. In 2011, all I every want to become is Ukrainian Catholic. And in 2012 I first stepped inside an Orthodox parish. I even told the priest I am not looking to become Orthodox. But here I am in 2013 about to be received as a catechumen in the OCA.

Am I Orthodox for life? At this point I would want to, but given my journey I will just take everything day by day. Who knows, maybe God wants me somewhere else at some point in the future. So today I know that I want to be Orthodox. As Scripture says, let tomorrow worry about tomorrow (paraphrasing here), so what will I be tomorrow I don't know and I don't want to worry about.

I have learned to never say never. When I decided to become more serious with my faith I said that I will never be anything else than a Roman Catholic. In 2010, because of my growing knowledge of the faith I said I wanted to visit Eastern Catholic Churches, which at that time I recently learned about, and learn more about them. The moment I stepped onto a Ukrainian Catholic Church I wanted to become part of it. In 2011, all I every want to become is Ukrainian Catholic. And in 2012 I first stepped inside an Orthodox parish. I even told the priest I am not looking to become Orthodox. But here I am in 2013 about to be received as a catechumen in the OCA.

Am I Orthodox for life? At this point I would want to, but given my journey I will just take everything day by day. Who knows, maybe God wants me somewhere else at some point in the future. So today I know that I want to be Orthodox. As Scripture says, let tomorrow worry about tomorrow (paraphrasing here), so what will I be tomorrow I don't know and I don't want to worry about.

I can promise it will be some type of Christian. Despite my arguments you never know I could rejoin Orthodoxy. I'm in a lot of deep study, and do argue a lot... Lots of pain & questions. So where I am at, where I was once in Orthodoxy, I can't ever say I would not change.

To refute your opinions would involve presenting countering ideas and support for them. is that correct? Will you address things that people write that disagree with you? If so, can we narrow it down to one at a time to focus a bit more?

How about History? You have the Bible under History in your paragraph. Yes the Bible exists but what do you know about the history of the Bible? It was written and compiled over many centuries. It was also translated into different languages. It is made up of different sorts of writing including poetry, praise, instruction and historical accounts. What do you really know about the history of the Bible? Do you have a particular translation that you prefer? If so, do you know how it came to be made?

Having translation problems mean nothing, we have Alot of Manuscripts, The Bible is the most accurate Historical Document in Ancient History, http://carm.org/manuscript-evidence

Going through every "naturalistic" myth and will leave The Resurrection as The Only Explanation, not best or most probable but Only Explanation.

proving that Jesus Christ existed and there was an empty tomb factually follows that He rose from the dead.

myth theory -

Different points of views, no contradiction from The Apostles means events happened. miracles are authentic as they are written in witness and have evidence of addition, exaggeration, or lies.

Josephus proves Jesus Christ was crucified, no matter what you say this man was a Jew, had no biased or presupposition.

Nazareth Inscription proves empty tomb.

Women found the tomb empty, this irrefutable, criteria of embarrassment

Matthew 28:11-18 proves without a doubt there was an empty tomb, Matthew refutes the Jews, no matter what you say or what you think he REFUTES what the Jews were saying, which proves, the Jews were claiming they stole the tomb. a common presupposition and excuse.

My fellow Christians told the truth of The Resurrection and the Jews spread the stolen tomb myth, either way EMPTY TOMB, of who? Jesus Christ, why was there a tomb? He was crucified, why? because the Jews thought He committed blasphemy why was there an empty tomb? we will get to that next. Apostles died for their beliefs and appearances are genuine(will get to it next)

"myth theory" is long gone and dead. if you EVER claim myth then you are a presuppositional delusional hypocritical, the words could go on and on.

myth "theory" is now an impossible myth.

conspiracy theory - 1, No one could have stolen the tomb as it was blocked by roman guards.

2, Apostles had nothing to gain, criteria of embarrassment, they were shamed and were against all evil, sin.

3, They died for their beliefs, 11 of the 12 Apostles died for their beliefs, no one dies for a known lie, they really believed in The Resurrection added that with the facts of the appearances.

4, Appearances to Women, proves Apostles were telling the truth

5, James, the brother of Jesus Christ in The Gospels is a skeptic, outside of it he's a believer(Letters, Church, and Josephus) Jesus had to have appeared to him.

6, Paul, a prosecutor of Christians becomes a Christian himself and becomes a leading preacher of Christianity going through all kinds of suffering and ultimately death for his beliefs.

7, Apostles believed in The Resurrection despite every predispostion to the contrary, no one believed The Messiah was going to die, be God, or much less Resurrect from the dead. no one believed in The Resurrection until the end of world, the general Resurrection.

Apostles believed The Resurrection happened, myth and conspiracy theories are now myths, if you want to argue you can only use your last 3 "naturalistic" myths when arguing with me because the myth and conspiracy theories are dead myths now, using them or believing them exposes you as a hypocrite as those are now Impossible Explanations.

Now we have a few facts,

Jesus Christ was crucifiedThere was an Empty TombJesus Christ appeared alive after His death to several peopleApostles really believed in The Resurrection

last 3 which are easily refutatable.

"twin brother/lookalike" theory - Apostles knew Jesus, saw Him perform more miracles, Empty Tomb and no one could have stolen the tomb, had same wounds, no known twin brother as James, Jesus half brother, would take that into consideration. and theory is a stretch.

"twin brother/lookalike" theory is a myth

swoon theory - Apostles saw Jesus Christ die, He was anointed, stabbed in chest pouring blood and water confirming death, romans made sure you die when crucified, even if survived would have been impossible to escape tomb, would've died later, would not convince apostles, and Jesus Christ Ascended.

swoon theory is now a myth

last theory that if I disprove I prove The Resurrection happened.

hallucination theory - Apostles were in their right minds, died for their beliefs, hallucinations are fast and quick, Thomas for example put his hand in Jesus side, you don't have multiple hallucinations about the same thing, and finally multiple people do not hallucinate about the same thing.

EVERY Single "naturalistic" "theory" has been made a myth of.

There is one Irrefutable Explanation, not the best but The Only Explanation is that Jesus Christ died on the cross and Resurrected from the dead, therefore proving everything in The Bible as a fact.

Jesus Christ Resurrected from the dead.

add that with The Shroud which has no evidence of forgery, not a painting, cannot be reproduced with any type of technology, and caused by a burst of light from the dead body causing an image like a photography.

With The facts of The Bible's inerrancy and no contradiction, The Sense it makes, reliable Testimony/Accounts, Scientific Accuracy and foreknowledge, Historical Accuracy and foreknowledge, God's existence and failure of other religions making Christianity the only factual possibility, Physical evidence in The Shroud and Only Explanation being The Resurrection, it is indeniable, God Exists, Jesus Christ is Lord, Our Savior who died for our sins on the cross, Jesus Christ is the 2nd person of God, and that God is The Trinity of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit.

So on history you've been refuted, pick another area now.

for those who believe indeed an empty tomb is a sign of resurrection. For some others who are looking for reasons why they should except christ as the God. An empty tomb is not enough, because an empty tomb could be emptied by someone else who loved power and authority, and wanted to control the masses by making something appear as truth. So there is no proof. Scientifically at least. It is all a matter of what we believe (faith). And most of us believe what makes sense. And if jesus is the son of God, then yes resurrecting makes perfect sense, even if he never said that he would.

I can promise it will be some type of Christian. Despite my arguments you never know I could rejoin Orthodoxy. I'm in a lot of deep study, and do argue a lot... Lots of pain & questions. So where I am at, where I was once in Orthodoxy, I can't ever say I would not change.

I COULD NOT go to a non-Christian faith or Atheism.

regarding the last sentence: if you believe in christ as the true God, it's the most probable that you can't become an atheist, or non christian. On the other hand, a doubt is what keeps me away from other religions, not a warm faith. Although christianity makes more sense because, it seems to be the only one that recognizes and cares about our human rights. And doesn't consider us a big nothing.

I think it all depends on one's attitude. I was in the Orthodox Church for two years, and I was very immature. I focused on the unimportant and even superficial aspects of the Orthodox Church, and I ended up leaving the Church for another denomination (though I've not made any effort to enter this denomination, and will not.)

If you are in the Orthodox Church and love it for the firm faith rooted in tradition, and can look past the fancy bells and whistles, into the deeper meaning within the liturgy, than you've got a fighting chance.

I think it all depends on one's attitude. I was in the Orthodox Church for two years, and I was very immature. I focused on the unimportant and even superficial aspects of the Orthodox Church, and I ended up leaving the Church for another denomination (though I've not made any effort to enter this denomination, and will not.)

If you are in the Orthodox Church and love it for the firm faith rooted in tradition, and can look past the fancy bells and whistles, into the deeper meaning within the liturgy, than you've got a fighting chance.

In truth, without Christ, I am nothing....and I believe wholeheartedly that the Orthodox Faith is His One True Church.

Every moment of my day revolves around my Faith. Every thing I do, how I do it, why I do it....all revolves around Orthodoxy.

I am blessed to be born in to a family who has been Orthodox for generations. I feel each of my ancestors behind me. When I pray...they all pray with me. At the Eucharist, we all stand together before God. We pray for them, they pray for us.

To take Orthodoxy from me, would be like sucking the air from my lungs.

I would die.

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Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

I think it all depends on one's attitude. I was in the Orthodox Church for two years, and I was very immature. I focused on the unimportant and even superficial aspects of the Orthodox Church, and I ended up leaving the Church for another denomination (though I've not made any effort to enter this denomination, and will not.)

If you are in the Orthodox Church and love it for the firm faith rooted in tradition, and can look past the fancy bells and whistles, into the deeper meaning within the liturgy, than you've got a fighting chance.

what do you consider the unimportant and superficial aspects?

Just things like a Church's ethnic identity, which is all well and fine, but doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the Orthodox Faith. (Speaking from the American Orthodox perspective, that is, where my town has a Russian Church down the street from a Greek one.)what do you consider the unimportant and superficial aspects?

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

Orthodoxy for me is not a denomination, but a way of life, the way of life; it is true human nature. As for how sure I am that I will not change, I will say that it has to do with God's help for me, and I have faith that He will keep me in The Faith.

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

You can't arbitrarily dismiss airtight logical arguments on the basis of the same enlightened progressive attitude that you seem to think exempts you from the rules of capitalization and punctuation that bind lesser mortals.

are they a different denomination? and what is the difference between them and the EO?

You do realize that Orthodoxy is not a "denomination", right?

The Orthodox Church is the One True Church of Christ.

Denominations have branched off from Orthodoxy.

Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria