Muhanna and Otrakji talk Syria at Bloggingheads

Camille Otrakji and I recorded a segment about the situation in Syria for Bloggingheads, which you can see here. To read my interview with Camille from a few weeks ago (which generated 724 comments from the readership), click here.

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254 thoughts on “Muhanna and Otrakji talk Syria at Bloggingheads”

danny,

your last comment is full of ignorance and bullshit.

I am not talking about Arab rulers. I am talking about the Arab people. The Arab people will never sell Palestine. Keep that engraved in your little head. Today Rafa7h was openned permenantly and the Jordanians are out seeking abrogation of their King’s treaty.

My religous beliefs are none of your business. I am fully aware of the Armenian saga but you are fully ignorant of the Palestinian case.

The Palestinians did not sell their lands and that’s all bullshit of ilks of the aig’s and the ap’s. You want to join them? Go ahead.

You seem to be showing your frail nerves. This is not the forum to go back and forth.
You call me ignorant; however the hatred in you has you totally screwed up. I really don’t give a rat’s ass about your religious beliefs except for the fact that you have ANNOUNCED it on this blog constantly.
Rafah smafah!! If you have chosen to speak about the “ARAB” people…please kidly tell me who are the so called Arabs? Show me some proof! Except for you and SHN that is.:D

“I am fully aware of the Armenian saga but you are fully ignorant of the Palestinian casE”

Tell me who is the ignorant one here? Armenian saga? You are a total moron!Is that what a Genocide is equated to? Or are you a secret admirer of Amjad and will deny that the Holocaust ever happened too?

I do know much more than you about the Palestinian plight as my family is from Haifa.

Hmmm…The Salafist just blew a fuse! You are racist and incapable of accepting criticism. Definitely you do have issues. As for Hakim..it seems you need one. It seems you like to shout and think you can impress anyone with your sheer stupidity and ignorance.
As for Lebanon. I guess we all know why you have decided to move to Montreal…Great welfare benefits. Right? Why don’t you go and fight in gaza instead of barking up a storm in Quebec.
There’s nothing further to add. You never fail to expose your sheer unadulterated backward mentality and pea brain.

The “Lebanese” are a unique bunch that never tire of hollow diatribes and futile gobbledygook.
But the Lebanese experience and message to the World will live on for ever. 🙂

Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ says somewhere in the Bible that “my house shall be a house of prayer for all peoples?”

Indeed. And it also says that “In your seed ALL the nations of the earth shall be blessed”.

All the major religions out there stress the common humanity of all mankind. If in South Africa some crackpots from the Gereformeerde Kerk in Suid-Afrika decided to use the Bible as a basis for Apartheid they utterly failed to get ANY traction at all with the rest of the (nominally) Christian world out there. Malcolm X totally denounced the Nation of Islam’s nonsense about “blue-eyed white devils” as soon as he traveled to Mecca and met Muslims from all races and all parts of the world. Any and all forms of racism are, of course, absolutely incompatible with the idea of a God creator of us all whether we call him Yahweh, Allah or Ishvara. Not so for the rabbinical “HaShem” or the “Ein Sof” of the Kabala who, according to these modern successors of the Pharisees, created only Jews in his image and likeness.

Truly a blasphemy if their ever was one!

The Khazarian Mafia will inevitably go back home one day, wherever that may be, and the Infamous White House Murder INC, will burn in Hell soonest! 🙂

What is causing the rapid downfall of the Lebanese economy apart from obvious recent circumstances. Has it been a long time in the making? or did it just fall on their laps? What internal malpractices are responsible?

Major clash happened today between Ziad Baroud, Ashraf Rifi, Ma3loumat and the Minister of telecommunications.
There is a clandestine 3rd cellphone network being run by Ogero, called Ogero mobile. It might have been used in Syria’s uprising. Rifi and Ma3loumat refused Ziad Baroud’s order to vacate the premises belonging to the PTT ministry. Charbel Nahas asked for the intervention of the Lebanese Army to vacate the building. Rifi and Ma3loumat have rushed about 400 armed guys to protect the floor where the equipment is installed. There has been a quick move by Ogero to dismantle part of the Network at night, and huge black boxes were seen by eyewitnesses being vacated from the building. If ZB’s orders are not followed scrupulously, he should resign immediately . Dicey situation developping. This is Lebanon 🙂

Maverick
The relative good performance of the Lebanese economy was never as solid as the official government maintained.
Obviously corruption is the single most important reason for the lack of productive investments in Lebanon outside the real estate market. Lebanon is very well known as one of the most corrupt countries in the world.
Lack of a decent taxing structure coupled with proper enforcement. The total collected taxes amount to something around 16% of the GDP. That is a very low figure.
The mismanagment of the sovereign debt is another isue. No one should ever allow borrowings to become a major burden. The purpose of borrowing is to facilitate growth and not make it worse. When more than 50% of all tax revenue goes to debt service then you know that something is clearly wrong. This is similar to what some college students are currently doing in the US. Education is an investment and so it is rational to borrow to go to school provided that the burden created by the debt can realistically be paid off by the expected higher revenue. In many cases this is no longer the case. I know of some liberal arts majors that are graduating with a bachelors and over a $100,000 debt. These poor souls will never be able to get from under this burden for the rest of their lifes. That is the case of Lebanon.
Lebanon promotes its image as a tourist destination and yet cannot provide reliable electricity, water broadband …
Then there is the capital inflowfrom those that are working abroad. These inflows are not attracted by the economic or the political environment but by familial and personal ties.Add to this the additional amounts attracted from the Lebanese diapora through offering artificial high interest rates. Such inflows cannot be maintained.
And then there is the huge annual deficit generated in the electricity sector.
and on and on….

HK
The issue that you refer to in your last post is indeed bizzare but from the coverage that I have seen no mention whatsoever of a Syrian connection was ever made. I imagine that this network was set up more than 6 weeks ago.

Thank you HK and iceman for not just your steadfastness in support of the Rights of the ancient and historic Palestinian nation and the Heroes of the Resistance but also for pointing out that the Zionists are not the real Jews. They are really Khazars from Europe and have no connection to the ancient Israelites who blighted the area before the enlightenment of Islam and the strength of the Arabs liberated it.

As an occasional participant I agree that these spats are stupid. Over the years I have come to the realization that one thing also hurting the peace process is the very different outlook on the future that each party holds.

It’s sad that even though I agree with you on some of your comments, and disagree with you on others, you failed to even try debating the issue and resorted to comments like “Most ignorant statement ever”.

Regardless of what you think of the crusades, I am fairly certain that there are at least SOME parallels between the Armenian genocide and the Palestinian nakba.

I hope you take this answer seriously and do not quetsion my intentions as some here are keen on doing.

My problem with HA is only with the political assassination regime that it imposed on Lebanon since the Hamadeh incident and onward.

I do not need to disclose any personal information to you or to any other participants here. But here is something very personal.

No, I do not have problem with HA being a Shia organization. HALF of my family members are in fact Shia. Two of my nephews are active members in the organization (political branch) and have high positions at the AUB. I do not necessarily agree with them, but I do not have personal enmities with them either.

AS for ending Israel and HA’s aim to achieve that, if you go back to my comments and read them carefully, you will find that I am not actually calling for that. I am only arguing from the point of view of defending Palestinian rights.

So, please do not harp again on this Sunni Shia issue.

BV,
The similarities between the Palestinian and Armenian sagas are only in the fact that both suffered injustices. The Palestinians are not going to become passive as you may want the Armenians to be. But we know also some Armenians are not so passive.

Well phew… Iceman has Shia family members🙂. He can’t possibly be a Shia-hater.

One wonders how his nephews feel about his support for the “honorable” conduct of the Saudis and Bahrainis in putting down the demonstrations in Bahrain. (Note: There exist three kinds of political systems- 1) Liberal Democracies, 2) Absolute monarchies based on “Honor”, like Saudi, 3) Horrible Despotic Regimes like the Syrian one and Wilayet-el-Faqih).

There is a very famous saying in Arabic that is quite timely here. It has been shared with us by one of the most valiant Arabs on this forum:

بلا حياء وحرف نكرة ولا يستأهل اي اهتمام٠

But on to the points themselves.

My problem with HA is only with the political assassination regime that it imposed on Lebanon since the Hamadeh incident and onward.

Only?!? And how can one have a problem with someone they have not been “proven” to be guilty of in a court of law?

He has no problems with HA actions on the border?

He has no problems with the fact that HA is armed?

His only problem with HA is that they imposed a “political assassination” regime.

Masha’Allah.

AS for ending Israel and HA’s aim to achieve that, if you go back to my comments and read them carefully, you will find that I am not actually calling for that. I am only arguing from the point of view of defending Palestinian rights.

Two statements down. The Iceman appears to be confused again. Now he states that he is not calling for the “destruction” of Isra-hell, or condoning HA’s aim of achieiving that.

So perhaps the first statement was not his only contention with Hizballah.

Or maybe it was.

You never know.

I see he has a new buddy now on these forums. A buddy who assures us that the issue of the “Holy Land”- will remain quite the hot potato because there’s the Indians to deal with, and the Uighurs, and the 250m+ Indonesians.

Masha’Allah.

Not only are the “Arabs” fighting for the Palestinians. So are the Uighurs and the Indonesians and the Indians.

Like Iceman, they are all fighting for the Palestinian rights.

If only they could dedicate 10% of their fighting efforts to supporting the Armenians in their struggle against the Ottomans.

I mean, and let’s quote the Honorable Iceman here, if:

“Today Rafa7h was openned permenantly and the Jordanians are out seeking abrogation of their King’s treaty.”

How come none of those Honorable people seek abrogation of any diplomatic relations with Turkey over the Armenian issue?

GK, Thanks for the input, i have been reading a bit on FSU, it is one of the oldest and most reputable schools in Florida especially doing well in their Engineering program which I heard is among the top 10 nationally recognized programs. I am in Tallahassee on a 2 day orientation and those Seminoles look great🙂

AP,
V Junior is into Mechanical Engineering, he also likes Economics, who knows how he will combine these 2. By the way he graduated top of his class with Academic Honors, during his high school graduation ceremony in Boca Raton he was recognized and given an award for an essay he wrote on the Holocaust it was presented to him by the Jewish Veterans of WW2, i found that to be very special him being an Arab American and given such award and recognition.

QN, sorry for the not relevant comments, it’s very tempting to get free academic counseling with GK here.

“I simply asked how this works, from a legal framework. Statute of limitations?”

BV,

The only ‘statute of limitation’ that may be invoked (assuming such statute exists) is the will of the party to continue to seek redress by whatever means are availbale at its disposal.

If you think otherwise, then please explain in order to negate the implication that passivity is what you actually wanted.

Technically speaking the Arabs do not recognize the state of Israel as we speak. There is a good chance that the two states which gambled on peace and recognition may retrace their steps after recognizing the failure of such endeavour. And in either case such recognition did not even go beyond mere formalities as the popular hostility and non-acceptance of Israel is still at the same level as prior to signing any treaty if not worse.

The region cannot move to actual peace unless the Palestinian issue is redressed and this is not just a Palestinian demand.

Interesting! I am a mechanical/aerospace/structural engineer myself. At my present employer, we are in the process of hiring a few kids from FAU (Florida Atlantic University). We have had success from several new hires from that school.

Actually, I’m not that familiar with Florida colleges. Most of the people I’ve worked with come from Michigan, Virginia Tech, Maryland, and Pennsylvania. There are some good universities in this area.

I am touched that your som won this award. You should win one yourself! I must say that it is good to hear how the Jewish community does outreach like this. The JCC I belong to has attracted a lot of African-Americans, and I think it’s a good thing.

Good luck to you and your son. If he needs a summer job or when he gets close to graduating, please let me know:

I still don’t understand why you insist on putting words in my mouth. I never said there WAS a statute of limitations.
I never said what I want or don’t want either.
Of course I want justice for the Palestinians or some kind of fair solution.

My comment was a QUESTION:
History has shown that generally speaking (i’ll beg to differ with you on the crusades) that many native peoples have been displaced by invaders throughout the centuries. And none of them – as far as I know – have managed to get repatriated 100 years after the fact. History moves on. The fait accompli on the ground usually wins. Is that what I want? Of course not. But is it realistic to expect that the Palestinians will be some kind of exception? Is it realistic to think that in some kind of way, all the Palestinians who were displaced in 1948 and later will get to go back, even after 500 years of “struggle”? My money’s on NO.
That’s my GUESS (not what I want).

So failing this unrealistic “solution”, what equitable and more realistic solution should we expect?

Having pipe dreams is nice, but it usually doesn’t get anything resolved. That’s all I’m saying.

Ya ahbal without us your ’7hakim’ would be rotting in jail up till now.

Without “US”.

Wow.

The Imbrator, Amir Al-Mu2mineen, The Soltan himself has decreed again!

Without “US”.

We must forever thank his Lordship for the protections offered🙂

Without “US”, Indeed.

Who exactly is he “US”.

So to date, we’ve had ‘V’, and ‘BV’ and ‘HP’ begging for forgiveness from his Lordship.

I see poor BV is still trying to engage in discussions with meaningless hypotheticals.

“I’m not saying I don’t believe in inalienable Palestinian rights, but when is this statement simply a platitude, and when should it be put into force”.

The Iceman is not taking the bait. He assures us that the claim to Al-Quds will forever be eternal, and it will last Centuries. There are no statutes of Limitations. He sounds sort-of like Bin Laden when he mouths off on Al-Andalus.

But even then, we’re still not sure what Iceman’s position is.

Does he support the Armed Struggle of the Palestinians. Or does he not? Or as QN posed: Is he against HA because they are Shia?

As can be expected from people with a Forked Tongue. We got two answers.

Answer 1: “I support the eternal rights of the Palestinians”.

Answer 2: “I am not actually calling for ‘ending Israel’.”

That means of course that, at the very least, Iceman falls into the broad bin of “Hypocrites” that Danny threw the “Arabs” into. The ones that keep barking about “Palestinian Rights” and who “don’t do anything about it”.

Here’s an interesting Hypothetical question, while we are on the Sectarian argument.

If the “Heavens” open up tomorrow. And HK’s Divine voice reaches every Palestinian, and they all decide to become “Christians” tomorrow, every last one of them.. Will:

(1) “The Arabs” continue supporting the “Palestinians”.

(2) How about, as Issa suggests, the ‘Indians’, the ‘Indonesians’, and the ‘Uighurs’. Or will they abandon the “Palestine question”.

Concerning that “Ouighours” thing that you liked so much, it was just a remark to say that many people around the world has a specific affection for Jerusalem because of their religious beliefs; so it is just impossible to explain to them that this city that they see as holy is under violent occupation, and where freedom of worship is not guaranteed.

And Jerusalem is just part of the equation where these non-Arab Muslims worries for their fellow Muslims. If you consider this a sectarianism, so be it.

You just can’t dispute that there is a solidarity based on common beliefs and shared values. Full stop.

And for your question (2), maybe these born-again Christians will have an affection for Jerusalem even bigger…(an empty answer for an empty question)

You noticed…The “us” part (He does not deserve any attention really as he exposes himself in a drop of a hat)…Ice has weak nerves…Let him be.
I noticed the mentioned “initial”-ed people asking for forgiveness from the Sultan of the anger.😀

I don’t want to be a painy ass school teacher, but can you please tell me what do you mean when you say “salafi” this, “salafi” that?
…because, when I look at the way you use it, it seems that you have no clue of what a salafi is.

I maybe wrong, you may understand this term, and what it refers to,,, but by any chance, if you want to use it for “radical”, so use “radical”, because it has nothing to do with salafi.

Concerning that “Ouighours” thing that you liked so much, it was just a remark to say that many people around the world has a specific affection for Jerusalem because of their religious beliefs; so it is just impossible to explain to them that this city that they see as holy is under violent occupation, and where freedom of worship is not guaranteed.

Impossible? Have you tried previously and failed? Or have you never tried, and are speculating that it would be impossible.

You see, I don’t really think it’s that impossible.

Take the Pakistanis (the Muslim Indians who got their own independent APARTHEID state), in, as it happens, around the same time as the establishment of Israel… 1947.

The Pakistanis:

(1) Declared a religious republic that is around 97% Muslim.

(2) Consider heretical and curtail the rights of minority groups like the Ahmadi, whose places of worship are routinely bombed.

(3) The formation of Pakistan, led to 3 war, and the dislocations of MILLIONS of people, a catastrophe much larger in scale than the creation of Israel.

(4) The Blasphemy law exists and is used to bully what little religious minorities still exist in the country.

(5) The country harbours and protects the perpetrators of attrocities in New York, Madrid, London, Bali.

If despite all those things, you have failed to convince the Pakistanis that maybe they should focus on cleaning up their own house, instead of concerning themselves with this most Unholy of cities- Jerusalem. Then I think you have not tried hard enough.

And Jerusalem is just part of the equation where these non-Arab Muslims worries for their fellow Muslims. If you consider this a sectarianism, so be it.

You just can’t dispute that there is a solidarity based on common beliefs and shared values. Full stop.

Issa. Indeed.

All it takes is “common beliefs” and “shared values”, and that invites “Solidarity”.

The Uighurs and the Pakistanis and the Indonesians should adopt Universal Human values.

If, as Iceman suggests, the Armenians and the Palestinians share a “Common Saga” whereby they both “Suffered Injustices”, then:

If the Pakistanis and the Indonesians and the Uighurs, and the Morrocans decide to “correct this injustice” by not having “relations with the State of Israel”, then they should cut off their relations with the “State of Turkey”, until such time that it rectifies its “Injustices”.

Otherwise, when people like Iceman throw words like “Injustice”, they ring hollow.

Your answer is quite curious, I can understand the reasoning but not the logic.

I’ve never tried to do convince these guys because it simply makes no sense to try.
I mean, it is like trying to convince a person that he should not worry about the woman being beaten up under his apartment window, but he should rather tidy his place and clean the oven! …this is were your curious reasoning leads to…

and you are listing all the bad things about Pakistan, again its like saying: hey forget that girl, look at the dirt, look at the dust,look at the water leaking etc…

In a way, its like saying to those who cares about Syrian protesters, to first turn their respective countries into heavens of peace, democracy and prosperity before doing anything for the Syrian people… curious reasoning indeed.

I said i WANT a fair solution. I distinguished clearly between my wants and what I predict can or will happen. I do not have to be objective when stating my wants. They are mine and mine alone.
I also WANT lower taxes. Is that objective? Of course not.
Do i predict I will get lower taxes? Nope.
Do I predict the Palestinians will get complete and equitable justice? I don’t think so either.

And for the record, I don’t believe the Uighurs and Indonesians give a crap about the Palestinian people or Israel.
I actually work with several Indonesians (I unfortunately do not know any uighurs) not to mention various coworkers from other muslim (non-Arab) countries.
They are so far removed from the Arab-Israeli conflict, it does not affect them in the least bit and frankly, most of them barely know about it (or give a flying f***).

And I also assure you that most Christians outside of the Middle East itself don’t give a rats ass about the Maronites or the Copts either.

Au contraire. The problem Danny is that people like Iceman brought us the organizations like the Baath. Organisations like HA. Autocratic failed regimes. It is groups like those that talk in language such as “Without us”. Language of patronage and fundamental disrespect.

Let me ask you a question. Why do you think Iceman felt compelled to share a “personal” story, in Post #226? Why do you think he felt compelled to tell us all that half his family is Shia? And that he even capitalized the half? All because, for all this bravado he showed talking about the Palestinians and their rights, it had poor QN confused as to why Iceman is one of the most vocal Anti-Muqawama people on his forum, which led him to ask the natural question as to why he is anti-HA.

You see, there’s a little thing called 7aya. Everyone has some of it. And if you keep reminding them that they (their positions) are Bala 7aya. They get defensive, embarrassed and it produces the effect you see in Post #226.

Continuing to engage with Iceman is crucial, because unfortunately, Iceman represents a fairly large percentage of the Arab world in its current state.

Continuing to remind him that he is

(1) Bala 7aya
(2) Disrespectful for calling even the most respectful of people on this forum (like BV or HP) ignorant, etc.
(3) Not half as knowledgeable as he claims himself to be.

… will have a long-term positive effect on him, and all others who read this blog who think like him.

In a way, its like saying to those who cares about Syrian protesters, to first turn their respective countries into heavens of peace, democracy and prosperity before doing anything for the Syrian people… curious reasoning indeed.

Not at all.

I just don’t like hypocrites. I like people who say it as it is and who are consistent. People who don’t apply one set of “favorable” rules to a group just because they happen to be of the same sect. And another set of rules when it’s not the same sect.

Sort of like what Hizballah does in its support for all those “democratic movements”, except of course the one in Syria.

I think the problem with Pakistan is not so much that they are not dusting while the woman in the floor downstairs is being beaten up.

It’s that they are beating up their women and complaining about the next door neighbour doing the same.

Re: example of Pakistan, they had a discussion on Opposite direction on AlJazeera arabic about 10 or so years ago. I wish I can find the clip again. They had an egyptian secularist face off against a pakistani. And they were going on about the creation of Pakistan, ongoing issues with Kashmir.

The Egyptian chap was arguing that given that Pakistan is a political and economic basketcase, the Kashmiris should really just be happy being part of India, an emerging economic giant. Then he drew a parallel of religoous segragation that happened in Pakistan and Israel. (Much like I’ve just done).

The pakistani chap nearly had a heart-attack. And with impeccable Arabic, said in utter disgust: “a Muslim ruled over by a Hindos”.

lol Gabriel #247 is on a kind of crusade to prevent people to join the dark side of the force embodied by Iceman. I told you I like you!
Also, in #248, I understood that you don’t like hypocrites and prefer consistency (me too). That’s what I tried to say in #244.
#250, I have no problem with that, I’ll definitely have a look at this clip if available, but I don’t see the clear relation to the topic. I don’t want to discuss how Pakistan is ruled, how it should be etc. If you mean that Pakistanis should not look at the mess in other places whereas they are already creating this mess at home, well, I made my point on #243.

BV,

#245, I understood your distinction the first time !… it was just to tease you
#246, guess what I don’t know any Uighurs either (it was just a sort of exotic name of a people which happens to be Muslim), but for Indonesians and Indians, believe me I know many of these folks who do cares TODAY! Of course not all of them, but in my original post, I said that it gonna be a GROWING TREND (imho).

Danny #249, I got you red-handed using the word “salafi”, so its your duty to answer #240🙂

Wahabis and Salafist are used interchangeably in the northern hemisphere. As for the definition and religious fanaticism of the freezer man…well you have to go back a few months on this blog and read the comments by “anonymous” to understand the context…