Dumbledore: " Of course it's in your mind....., but that dosn't mean it's not real."

Posted 01 May 2014 - 03:12 PM

Ben Masada, on 30 April 2014 - 08:58 PM, said:

If I have not proved God with the Logic that matter cannot cause itself to exist, all you have to do is to prove that it can.

Ben in think we have been over this. Matter/energy causes itself to exist all the time. Virtual particles come into existence all the time right in front of you. They are subject to the uncertainty principal. This means they can tunnel. In q tunneling there is a non zero chance it can pop up anywhere in the universe though exponentially decreasing in probability as you get further out. With current physics certain areas of the vacuum are bound by sheer numbers to have a positive energetic value. Every bazillion light years or so the odds add up that a huge tunneling event of virtual particles has happened to nearly the same spot. Energy from all over the vacuum. Walla Big Bang. We happen to live in one if those areas because we wouldn't be able to discuss it if we didn't. Physics is very clear on the matter. If a mass quantum tunneling event did not occur to initiate this universe it certainly will initiate one at some point latter, which of course means its probably where this one came from. It's back up by science and facts. The universe is most likely the product of the uncertainty principal which means yes it can simply pop into existence for no other reason than what already exists in nature to allow it.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light. Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

Since there is evidence that matter exists but none that God exists, I would say this implies matter needed no creator. Ball's back in your court

So, you imply that matter caused itself to exist because it needed no creator to be created. You have got to do much better than
that because your answer completely contradicts the concepts of Logic. How so? Thus: For matter to have caused itself to exist, it
had first to exist to do so, and if it already existed, it had no need to cause itself to exist as it already existed. That's a
fact demonstrated by Logic. The next step is to provide the agent that caused matter to exist. Care to give it a try?

Do you know something, Davros? You have reminded me now of those who believe in an individual Messiah. Most Jews have been
claiming for over four thousands years that the Messiah will come. And Christians for two thousands years that their Messiah will
return. How have you reminded me so? By repeating what many other atheists say, "Scientists are working on it."

The problem with the Jews that hope for the Messiah to come do not understand that the Messiah came when Jacob was born. IOW, that they are the Messiah themselves. The problem with Christians is that they have chosen a Jew for their Messiah; a Jew whose Faith
was Judaism in whose agenda there is no room for bodily resurrection.

Last but not least, the problem with atheists is the fallacy to appeal to the authority of scientists who although are not sure
about any thing, are working on it. That's their answer when they are cornered.

Ben in think we have been over this. Matter/energy causes itself to exist all the time. Virtual particles come into existence all the time right in front of you. They are subject to the uncertainty principal. This means they can tunnel. In q tunneling there is a non zero chance it can pop up anywhere in the universe though exponentially decreasing in probability as you get further out. With current physics certain areas of the vacuum are bound by sheer numbers to have a positive energetic value. Every bazillion light years or so the odds add up that a huge tunneling event of virtual particles has happened to nearly the same spot. Energy from all over the vacuum. Walla Big Bang. We happen to live in one if those areas because we wouldn't be able to discuss it if we didn't. Physics is very clear on the matter. If a mass quantum tunneling event did not occur to initiate this universe it certainly will initiate one at some point latter, which of course means its probably where this one came from. It's back up by science and facts. The universe is most likely the product of the uncertainty principal which means yes it can simply pop into existence for no other reason than what already exists in nature to allow it.

So, "matter/energy causes itself to exist all the time," isn't that right? First of all, energy to exist must be related to matter
either as a by-product, accident or subject to matter. So, let us work on matter and not energy as energy cannot exist independent
of matter.

Matter cannot cause itself to exist and much less all the time because to do so, it must exist first; and if it already exists, it
will have no need to cause itself to exist as it already exists. That's a fact demonstrated by Logic that no scientist of whatever
size is able to refute. Since we have once more established that matter cannot cause itself to exist, the next step is to provide
the agent that did that job for matter to exist today in the composition of the universe. Do you wanna try again?

Dumbledore: " Of course it's in your mind....., but that dosn't mean it's not real."

Posted 01 May 2014 - 08:06 PM

Ben Masada, on 01 May 2014 - 07:07 PM, said:

So, "matter/energy causes itself to exist all the time," isn't that right? First of all, energy to exist must be related to matter
either as a by-product, accident or subject to matter. So, let us work on matter and not energy as energy cannot exist independent
of matter.

Matter cannot cause itself to exist and much less all the time because to do so, it must exist first; and if it already exists, it
will have no need to cause itself to exist as it already exists. That's a fact demonstrated by Logic that no scientist of whatever
size is able to refute. Since we have once more established that matter cannot cause itself to exist, the next step is to provide
the agent that did that job for matter to exist today in the composition of the universe. Do you wanna try again?

Ben.. Matter and energy are equivalent. Energy is not a biproduct. If anything the other way around. A hydrogen atom is made of one proton and one electron. These are made up of quarks and other subatomic particles. They are bound by a force called coulomb's force.

Energetic particles were attracted to each other and combine because of certain forces so that we can have what we call matter. At any given moment ( indeed every given moment) these particles manifest because of the uncertainty principal. Most anhilate with their anti twin but some do tunnel away. When you have these subatomic energy particles they will combine to produce matter. Matter must have originated from the uncertainty principal. Now I'm with you on something. What's going on behind the scenes to even have the uncertainty principal... Possible an intelligence, but physics does take is pretty far back. A unjverse can begin based on the physics that we know... But you are correct something has been going on forever. My guess is that everything has been going on for ever.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light. Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

So, you imply that matter caused itself to exist because it needed no creator to be created. You have got to do much better than
that because your answer completely contradicts the concepts of Logic. How so? Thus: For matter to have caused itself to exist, it
had first to exist to do so, and if it already existed, it had no need to cause itself to exist as it already existed. That's a
fact demonstrated by Logic. The next step is to provide the agent that caused matter to exist. Care to give it a try?

If time began with the big bang then without the flow of time causality is a meaningless concept. I don't think anything was created, As I said before I think the universe just recycles itself or if you prefer changes states as the big bang leads to expansion until maximum entropy is reached and after enough time passes it jumps to a state of minimum entropy or perfect order which leads to another big bang. I don't know if this is correct but I think it shows it is possible no creator was needed.

I don't understand why you ask for the view from physics how matter could cause itself to exist then complain when someone quotes a scientist to answer you.

", because in most cases men willingly believe what they wish."-Julius Caesar 'De Bello Gallico, Book III, Ch. 18'

Posted 01 May 2014 - 10:48 PM

Ben Masada, on 01 May 2014 - 06:53 PM, said:

Do you know something, Davros? You have reminded me now of those who believe in an individual Messiah. Most Jews have been
claiming for over four thousands years that the Messiah will come. And Christians for two thousands years that their Messiah will
return. How have you reminded me so? By repeating what many other atheists say, "Scientists are working on it."

The problem with the Jews that hope for the Messiah to come do not understand that the Messiah came when Jacob was born. IOW, that they are the Messiah themselves. The problem with Christians is that they have chosen a Jew for their Messiah; a Jew whose Faith
was Judaism in whose agenda there is no room for bodily resurrection.

Last but not least, the problem with atheists is the fallacy to appeal to the authority of scientists who although are not sure
about any thing, are working on it. That's their answer when they are cornered.

That's some weapon's grade facepalm there.

It's not being cornered.It's reality based on evidence, and not goal post dragging into the parking lot hoping an imaginary friend shows up soon.

Last but not least, the problem with atheists is the fallacy to appeal to the authority of scientists who although are not sure
about any thing, are working on it. That's their answer when they are cornered.

Ah, which would then make your problem the fact that you have an affinity for strawmen.

"You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into""That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence" - C. Hitchens"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" - Richard Feynman

I can't see why creationists and other theists so often depend on causation when the best theologians abandoned it ages ago. I guess they are unable to see beyond their infant experience that things tend to have causes. In fact the notion may be hard-wired into us by evolution.

It is not too different from the difficulty many of us had as children realizing that the concepts of up and down are not absolute but relative to the earth. How many a third grader has asked why people don't fall off the antipodes?

Some things, especially in mathematics, are logical necessities, like the elementary geometry that opposite angles of intersecting lines are equal. Most things in physics though are not logical but empirical -- that is we conclude it is a "law of nature" because it seems to always work. The philosophical problems of causation were pointed out I think in detail by Hume (or one of those Scottish philosophers) and has since been observed by physicists.

The universe does not need to have a cause, and in fact is probably one of those things that just simply must happen every now and then (with extremely long time intervals between).

Ben.. Matter and energy are equivalent. Energy is not a biproduct. If anything the other way around. A hydrogen atom is made of one proton and one electron. These are made up of quarks and other subatomic particles. They are bound by a force called coulomb's force.

Energetic particles were attracted to each other and combine because of certain forces so that we can have what we call matter. At any given moment ( indeed every given moment) these particles manifest because of the uncertainty principal. Most anhilate with their anti twin but some do tunnel away. When you have these subatomic energy particles they will combine to produce matter. Matter must have originated from the uncertainty principal. Now I'm with you on something. What's going on behind the scenes to even have the uncertainty principal... Possible an intelligence, but physics does take is pretty far back. A unjverse can begin based on the physics that we know... But you are correct something has been going on forever. My guess is that everything has been going on for ever.

"Your guess!" That's the problem with theories, that they are nothing else but guesses; and with guesses atheists are ready to
go to the battle field to fight the theistic idea of the Primal Cause.

No WCF, matter and energy are not equivalent. Energy cannot exist without matter. Why don't you do better by giving me an example
of energy form which is not related to matter? It must be easy for you, giving your enthusiasm at speaking almost without doubt
about the non-distinction between matter and energy. Atoms have weight and energy does not. Atoms must be activated to cause
energy. Evidence? The production of radiation energy through an X-Ray tube would not happen if the rotor were not activated. I
could tell you more about this but you can stop me with the example I have asked of any form of energy not related to matter. Go
right ahead for I am all ears.

Nothing has been going on forever and I don't recall to have ever said it has. Nothing, I mean, which is related to matter.

If time began with the big bang then without the flow of time causality is a meaningless concept. I don't think anything was created, As I said before I think the universe just recycles itself or if you prefer changes states as the big bang leads to expansion until maximum entropy is reached and after enough time passes it jumps to a state of minimum entropy or perfect order which leads to another big bang. I don't know if this is correct but I think it shows it is possible no creator was needed.

I don't understand why you ask for the view from physics how matter could cause itself to exist then complain when someone quotes a scientist to answer you.

Oi vey Spacecowboy, now you did it! You think that nothing was created but that the universe just recycles itself. You have only
pushed me right back to my question: What caused the universe that recycles itself to exist if it could not have caused itself to
exist? Your idea does not at all show the impossibility for the Primal Cause. You can quote whoever you please in Physics about
the existence of matter. I promise I will not complain. However, I'll feedback accordingly if it does not make sense to Logic.

It's not being cornered.It's reality based on evidence, and not goal post dragging into the parking lot hoping an imaginary friend shows up soon.

Okay, so what is the evidence that the universe has caused itself to exist? The reality that it exists is demonstrated by all
sentient thing that is part of the universe. And that it could not have caused itself to exist, that's Logic. The question is
what has caused it to exist.

I can't see why creationists and other theists so often depend on causation when the best theologians abandoned it ages ago. I guess they are unable to see beyond their infant experience that things tend to have causes. In fact the notion may be hard-wired into us by evolution.

It is not too different from the difficulty many of us had as children realizing that the concepts of up and down are not absolute but relative to the earth. How many a third grader has asked why people don't fall off the antipodes?

Some things, especially in mathematics, are logical necessities, like the elementary geometry that opposite angles of intersecting lines are equal. Most things in physics though are not logical but empirical -- that is we conclude it is a "law of nature" because it seems to always work. The philosophical problems of causation were pointed out I think in detail by Hume (or one of those Scottish philosophers) and has since been observed by physicists.

The universe does not need to have a cause, and in fact is probably one of those things that just simply must happen every now and then (with extremely long time intervals between).

If the universe does not need to have had a cause, you surely mean that it came about as a result of magic. Perhaps right out of
the hat of the magician. Now, what or who was the magician?