Pure Hackmons (Gen V)

I feel Hackmons could use it's own introductory thread, even if only so it can have a link from !om someday. So here's an OP shamelessly stolen from based on Verbatim's BH thread. Discuss your wondertombs/balls and killer deoxys's here.

What is this tier?
Hackmons is a tier where one can use any moves and ability on any pokemon and have 252 EVs in every stat. Another thing to note is that there are no clauses. You can have 6 Dialgas if you want and Spore the entire opposing team if they let you.

This metagame can be seen as the Uber to Balanced Hackmons' OU (not a perfect analogy), where the more centralizing abilities and moves have been banned.

What can I expect?
When building a team, be ready for ridiculous combos like No Guard + OHKO moves, and Wonder Guard pokemon with no weaknesses. These are far from the only new challenges in the tier though, as many other previously mutually exclusive pokemon, moves, and abilities can come together.

I have an idea for a set...
Great! If you've had success with or encountered an interesting set feel free to post it in this thread. However, please keep discussion to sets you've either seen in battle or tried out yourself.

FAQ
Starting this off with two questions I've seen a bit. As the thread progresses, more may be added.

Can I use CAP Pokemon/Abilities/Moves? Or Magikarp's Revenge?
No, only moves, abilities, and pokemon available in the games may be used.

Do Forecast/Multitype work on Pokemon other than Castform/Arceus?
They will do nothing when not on their signature Pokemon.

How do I hurt Wonder Guarders?
Attacks made by Pokemon with Mold Breaker/Teravolt/Turboblaze will ignore the ability of the target pokemon. Removing Wonder Guard with an ability-changing move (except for skill swap) will let any attack work as normal.

A Mold Breaker's attacks will pop the Air Balloon on electric or poison/dark users, even if they are behind a substitute. Tricking away the balloon before they can use substitute will also work. They will then have a Ground weakness for the rest of the battle. Gravity negates the balloon entirely while in effect.

Scrappy or Foresight/Odor Sleuth will allow you to hit Spiritomb and Sableye with Fighting-type moves, which they are weak to without the Ghost-provided immunity.

If none of the above is available, indirect damage via entry hazards and status effects still work. Struggle gets a special mention, as it will hit but will only have 1 PP (unless you actually stalled out all your PP to get to it instead of putting it on your moveset).

Threat List
Herein are the strategies that define the Hackmons metagame. This section is a work in progress so if you notice anything missing, please post!

No Guard + Sheer Cold
Deoxys-S is the most common user of this strategy due to its unmatched speed. However, other mons can bluff another set to get surprise KOs by running this instead.

Wonder Guard
On pokemon with few or no weaknesses, this is an essential counter to No Guard, Huge/Pure Power, Contrary, and any other sweeper that isn't using Mold Breaker. Most teams will have at least two users of this ability to thwart sweepers that carry ability nullification like Gastro Acid. Any user generally must have no weakness to Ice, since the most common OHKO move is Ice-type.

Most WGers will be defensive, but offensive variants can grab setup opportunities off of common Pure Power/No Guard users and sweep provided that opposing WGers have been removed already.

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Spiritomb/Sableye
Dark/Ghost typing gives these two no weaknesses, making them 'perfect' wonderguarders. Unfortunately, their stats, most noticeably speed, are low in a meta full of Uber powerhouses. Unlike the next category of WGers though, they can hold any item.

Electrode/Jolteon/Raikou/Electivire
Electric types only have a weakness to Ground type attacks, which can be negated by holding an Air Ballon. Their high speed makes them a worthwhile consideration over the Ghost/Darks. Which one is used depends on how highly speed is valued vs. an attacking stat.

Drapion
Like Electric types, Drapion's Dark/Poison typing only has a Ground weakness. However, it is many times seen without an Air Balloon so it can absorb Toxic Spikes from the field.

Arceus/Regigigas/Slaking/Chansey/Blissey/(etc.)
Normal types are only weak to fighting, and many of them can take some unboosted fighting attacks anyway if necessary, or boost their defenses via Cotton Guard.

Genescect/Escavalier
These two are only weak to fire, and are immune to Sandstorm damage. They also pair well with a Drizzle user to weaken some non-stab fire attacks against them enough to survive.

Swampert
Only weak to grass, which is a very uncommon attacking type in hackmons. Like the Bug/Steels, it's right at home in either rain (for a boost to its stab) or sand (where it can stall effectively).

Palkia
Notable for only having a Dragon weakness. While Dragon is a common attacking type, if Palkia can set up most dragons will be adverse to switching in to deal with it.

Perish Trapping
By combining Perish Song, the right moveset/typing, and trapping ability (Shadow Tag or Arena Trap) or move (Spider Web or Whirlpool/Clamp/Fire Spin) perish trappers can remove pesky defensive pokemon effortlessly. Shadow Tag will work on Flying types, but Arena Trap can stop opposing Shadow Taggers from escaping (two Shadow Taggers will be able to retreat from each other) in combination with a Shed Shell to allow its own escape. Wonder Guard and a trapping move can be used instead to thwart U-turn.

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Gengar/Froslass
Being the fastest Ghost types, these two can switch in on common normal/fighting type attacks or setup moves like substitute. Once in, they use Encore. If the opponent is slower, they will be unable to do anything even with Magic Coat in their moveset. Once Perish Song and Encore are up, they will often lay hazards. Gengar has the ability to absorb Toxic Spikes while Froslass can be used on Hail teams. This set is ineffective against Magic Bouncers due to its reliance on encore.

Giratina
While it can run the encore set above, its lower speed misses out on some key threats (such as mono-priority Slaking/Regigigas). Often it will use a more traditional trapping set utilizing its bulk, recovery, and protect to stall out the Perish Song timer. Giratina can also Curse trap, which allows Giratina to stay in indefinitely.

Lugia
With great bulk and a Flying typing, Lugia doesn't have to fear counter-trappers that use Arena Trap and can safely run Shadow Tag with an item other than Shed Shell.

Mold Breaker/Teravolt/Turboblaze
This ability has two primary uses in Hackmons: sweeping through Wonder Guarders and crippling Magic Bouncers. Its presence also discourages the use of Unaware, since there are few setup sweepers lacking Mold Breaker that are walled by Unaware but not Wonder Guard.

Anything with high offenses is suited to a Mold Breaker sweeper or wallbreaker set, and a variety of fast (or occasionally bulky) pokemon can use the ability to inflict status and lay hazards against Magic Bouncers.

Imposter
By copying the stats (except for HP), stat changes, moveset, and ability of the opponent, Imposter has cemented itself as an important part of the metagame that keeps individual sets from becoming too powerful, lest they be sent right back at their user with more 2-3x the bulk. Since HP is the only thing not copied, there are only two viable users of Imposter: Chansey and Blissey. Chansey gets the ability to use Eviolite (which retains its boost even after the transformation), while Blissey gets to use other items with the highest HP stat in the game. Sometimes Chansey will use other items while bluffing Eviolite.

Beating an Imposter is easiest by using something it can't effectively copy, such as Facade on a status orb user, Judgment with an appropriate plate, or a Shed Shell on a perish trapper.

Weather Inducers
Sand Stream is the most common of the 4 weather abilities, providing residual damage and a 1.5 special defense boost to rock types. Teams using this ability are primarily stall, likely using Perish Trapping or Ability nullification to deal with pokemon that can survive the hazard, weather, and status damage (usually Magic Guarders and Poison Healers).

Snow Warning plays similarly to Sand Stream, but will be usually a bit more offense-oriented (often a Mold Breaker with STAB Blizzard + other STAB + coverage) to compensate for the lack of a Special Defense boost and walls on par with Shuckle or Rhydon.

Drizzle and Drought aren't as common since Wonder Guard makes direct attacking without a boosted Mold Breaker (which rarely would also need weather support) much more difficult. However, they still serve as a good way to cancel opposing weather and trigger some useful niche abilities such as Hydration or Harvest. Their interaction with Fire attacks can also help save or scorch many common Steel types.

Prankster

Magic Bounce

Magic Guard
Indirect damage is a huge factor in Hackmons, as sand/hail, entry hazards, and ghost type curse are very common. Magic Guard prevents all of it from affecting the holder, and is a very powerful answer to stall teams. Magic Guarders can even carry a status orb to give themselves immunity to spore. Users of this ability can also use Life Orb and/or recoil attacks without taking damage.

Poison Heal
Poison Heal works similarly to Magic Guard by providing excellent recovery over time to counter residual damage and effective status immunity. It's less effective at dealing with Curse or using recoil moves, but is great at substalling.

Scrappy
Often overlooked, this ability allows the user to hit ghost types with normal and fighting type attacks, and isn't announced in the battle log like Mold Breaker. Most Gengar/Froslass sets crumble to STAB Extremespeeds they weren't expecting to hit (even Prankster can't save against +2 priority), and Spiritomb and Sableye are super-effectively hit by Close Combat. Rapid Spin is also a good move for these mons, although they usually can't do much to non-ghost/dark WGers.

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Meloetta-P
Has high speed and possesses STAB on both types affected by Scrappy.

Terrakion
If Normal typing isn't desired, Terrakion offers very slightly higher Attack than Meloetta and a Rock STAB to punch through flying types like Lugia. Unfortunately, is also slower than Meloetta but still weak to opposing Fighting attacks.

Regigigas/Slaking
Commonly seen as Pure/Huge Power, these two can surprise incoming Ghost/Darks with a fighting type move. Although they won't get STAB, Close Combat and Hi Jump Kick are guaranteed 2HKOs (with a good chance at OHKO with a single layer of hazards down).

Arceus
Similarly to Regi and Slaking, Arceus can bluff another set, although Arceus is even more of a question mark since its balanced stats allow it to run a wide variety of sets.

Endeavor/Pain Split
The FEAR strategy is used by both Sturdy and low-level Wonder Guarders to significantly weaken opponents regardless of their defenses. In combination with residual damage, such as sand, hail, or toxic spikes, Endeavor is effectively a OHKO against non-Ghosts. On the other hand, priority can also be used for a 2HKO. However, this is a very predictable strategy. Pain Split gives these sets an option against Ghost types but fails against substitutes.

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Shedinja
With 1 HP and Sturdy, no direct attack can KO the bug. However, it is instantly KO'd by any form of residual damage and so must be played with extensive support. Mold Breaker also cuts through sturdy, and Pursuit from such a mon will always end Shedinja.

Shedinja doesn't have to run a FEAR strategy, since it retains its pseudo-invincibility at level 100 and without needing to ever restore HP.

Swinub
A level 1 swinub with Sturdy, a Shell Bell, and Hail support can Endeavor it's way through many pokemon for a OHKO. Like Shedinja, this requires a lot of support to avoid being crippled by hazards and status. The reason it's ever used over Shedinja is the immunity to both sand and hail. Another weakness of the strategy is the lack of offensive options compared to Shedinja.

Spiritomb/Sableye
A level 2 dark/ghost with Wonder Guard can fill a similar role to Swinub while being able to hold a different item and use Substitute and Curse. Unlike Sturdymons, the WGers can withstand residual damage (aided by their 15 HP, which causes the residual damage to round down). Can use a Flame Orb to block Spore, but this makes it more easily worn down.

Pure/Huge Power
This ability provides high immediate physical power, which when combined with priority moves like Extremespeed can be devastating to non-WG pokemon. With Pursuit, it can effectively trap Magic Bouncers such as Giratina.

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Slaking/Regigigas
Boasting high attack stats with STAB on Extremespeed, these two are the most common pokemon choice for Pure Power. Which the player uses is up to whether they want more Physical or Special bulk.

Unaware
Less popular now that Mold Breaker properly bypasses Unaware. Given that the majority of Hackmon sweepers already use Mold Breaker to negate Wonder Guard and Pure/Huge power are unaffected, Unaware's niche is very small.

Contrary
While somewhat popular among newer players to hackmons, without Mold Breaker an attacker will often be completely countered by Wonder Guarders and Unaware users. They can be successful in luring these counters into a devastating status move however, such as Trick or Spore.

Electrode's a pretty common wonder guarder, since it's the fastest one with no weaknesses. You have no way of stopping Whirlwind though, which hurts that set since it lacks recovery and it can only sub up to 3 times (adjust your HP to not be divisible by 4 - won't be relevant every time but may be handy). I don't know the rest of your team, but I'd say something else (preferably with Mold Breaker) take Stealth Rock and give Electrode something to stop Phazing. Taunt or Magic Coat work, but avoid Ingrain - I actually see that on some Electrode despite it's balloon-cancelling effect (to be fair, few people even know about that part). Locking your retreat against EQ/Fissure while removing your immunity to it won't end well.

Also, since an example set was asked for, might as well get this monster out of the way:

Not the only or unarguably best variant, but something along these lines is what I keep running into. This guy forces you to have Wonder Guarders/Sturdy Shedinja (the latter is bugged to not work as of this post though). Prankster Spore is a check IF it's not carrying Lum Berry (likewise for Pure Power Espeed if it doesn't have Focus Sash), but the only Pokemon that are even close to true counters are Wonder Guarders and they have to watch out for status moves on the switch in. With entry hazard support, it can be troublesome even to WGers, as it can force switches with Gastro Acid/Whirlwind and rack up the residual damage.

Most people run both Fissure and Sheer Cold because of SC's low PP and the fact that Fissure can pick off Electrode and friends that have lost their balloons. You'll see some that also carry Guillotine and/or Horn Drill, but there's really not much point to taking either of them.

I didn't slash it, but sometimes you see choice scarf on these as well (usually dropping the status moves). That variant is far easier to play around though and I don't think the boost to speed is worth it (it only adds the ability to beat other non-sash Deoxys-S, at the cost of being worthless against WG). The strikethroughed stuff applies to non-trick variants, but I see surprisingly few Trickscarf Deoxys so I forgot to mention it.

Such a great tier, easily my favourite. I find that it is quite similar to Balanced Hackmons, although slightly less aggressive with less Contrary users/attacking moves etc. This can probably be attributed to Wonder Guard though. If I was going to give tips to making a Pure Hackmons team I'd say the following:

You must account for:
- Wonder Guard (whether it's on Spiritomb/Sableye or on a Jolteon/Electrode/other electric type with a Balloon).
- Imposter Blissey
- Giratina, usually with Magic Bounce. But have also seen Curse/Perish Trappers and many others. Commonly used as it's the most bulky pokemon.
- Deoxys-S, usually with No Guard-Sheer Cold or Mold Breaker Spore.

I'd say these are 4 of the main threats, there are obviously many others. All can be easily accounted for, but without necessary preparation can easily defeat a team on their own.

Imposter is a lot less common than in Balanced, since the presence of Wonder Guard just makes the Imposter unable to sweep most of the time. If it copies a Wonder Guarder, it usually doesn't get to do much with the stolen set. Still a good scouting tool though and can check most Mold Breakers.

Perish/Curse trapping is a great way to eliminate opposing walls and some offensive threats, as subs or common abilities will not block either method. Curse takes longer to work and has a risky setup, but means you don't have to switch out on the turn the opponent faints.

Protect lets you stall for turns against attackers to gain Leftovers recovery and wait out the Curse/Perish Song. Substitute blocks status users from doing much of anything. A set with both is also fairly common (which is why sub is listed as an option twice). You obviously should switch on the last turn if using Perish Song, so passing a Wish is a decent option to prevent the opponent's final attack from crippling your switch. This isn't entirely necessary though (especially if Spiritomb/etc. is your switch-in), so Recover and its variants are fine too.

What I've listed for the 4th slot are not the only options, and you should consider this the slot you use to beat specific threats. Offensive moves are an option to not become taunt bait, but don't really help the set's role. Reflecting Taunt with Magic Coat or using your own Taunt would generally be a better idea.

Pokemon other than the commonly used Giratina and Lugia can of course pull this off, so long as they have good walling stats and typing for what you're trying to trap.

There is some merit to using Mean Look and a different ability (and some actual usage of this), but it takes longer to set up and doesn't deal with Magic Bounce at all.

As for beating it: Shed Shell (a rarity, given how crucial the item slot can be), U-turn, and Volt Switch are nearly surefire ways of escaping. Gastro Acid or Taunt can be used by faster pokemon to avoid being trapped or force the trapper out, respectively. Whirlwind (and less reliably Dragon Tail due to substitutes) can be used as well. As a last resort, you can try to KO the trapper, but it will be tough to secure a KO before time is up. You probably won't see PerishTrap Giratina trying to set up on your Kyurem-B or No Guard Deoxys-S in the first place.

I remember the good old days. I usually run two Wonder Guard users to combat Gastro Acid spam a bit better, they don't have to have no weak Pokemon, something like Kyogre still makes a wonderful Wonder Guard user.

I run a team of six of these, only altering ability, item, or a move to deal with specific pokemon that ruin it. Interestingly enough, the only two things I've seen that can shut this down is any steel with Sturdy or Prankster Spore, which both can be taken care of via Gastro Acid and Magic Bounce, respectively.

I actually see a fair amount of dragons, but Wonder Guard Dialga is the only common dragon that feels safe switching in to Palkia's Spacial Rend. Palkia can carry Aura Sphere for that though. Aura Sphere is also great for any non-ghost evasion abusers (evasion isn't that common but it can really mess with teams that don't expect it). Giratina probably won't try to set up against boosted Spacial Rend though, so they're not much of an issue.

You could put Gastro Acid on this to try and play around other Wonder Guarders, but I feel that those are better dealt with by using other team members. Most teams have multiple WGers and can just switchstall Gastro when you lack any other method of hurting them. You can also probably just Magic Coat their status moves if you want to keep Palkia in anyway.

Also Relados, that Deoxys team is trolled pretty hard by Wonder Guarders with U-turn and Magic Coat. Also you lose if any hazards end up on your side and they have a Pure Power sweeper.

I'm not seeing how that Arceus is effective. It can't trap in any way on it's own, so anyone who expects a Shadow Tagger to come in after perish song will just switch out. I also don't see why you have Soundproof if you're just going to switch out (and have Shed Shell so you'll virtually always be able to). Simple Beam is worse than Gastro Acid, and I'm not sure why it needs to be able to nullify abilities in the first place. Extremespeed is nice but without boosting isn't doing much for a defensively-oriented mon. The entire set doesn't seem to know what it wants to do.

That Deoxys can't beat Magic Bouncers on its own (Toxic and Encore are both deflected) which really hurts its utility as a trapper. Rapid Spin is nice on a trapper to keep the spin target from going to a spinblocker though.

Doubles President

I don't really play Pure Hackmons (much preferring Balanced myself), but out of curiosity, is Sturdy worth running on non-Shedinja Pokemon or is it better to just stack Wonder Guard users and hope for the best?

Sturdy is only worth using over Wonder Guard if the pokemon has too many common weaknesses (especially if an Ice weakness is included). Even then, you won't see sturdy much since it's broken for regular damaging moves by sand/hail and hazards. As a result it can't save you from things other than OHKO moves (like Pure Power, Contrary, etc.) that Wonder Guard would help against.

I don't really play Pure Hackmons (much preferring Balanced myself), but out of curiosity, is Sturdy worth running on non-Shedinja Pokemon or is it better to just stack Wonder Guard users and hope for the best?

Click to expand...

No way. It's only necessary to have one or two Wonder Guarders on a team. Although Wonder Guard is a good ability it's easily beatable. For example, one Prankster could take out all without Magic Coat.

I only put two WGers at most, and I'd love to get away with just one (more room for offensive abilities yes plz). Having just one leaves you with a tough choice to make if Deo-S lands a Gastro Acid on it though.

Also, I wanted to bring one of the more interesting WG sets in here for discussion:

Annoying to face without Mold Breaker Pursuit, to say the least. It can easily shrug off residual damage via Pain Split while providing a threatening offense so long as the opponent has no sub up. Curse gets around that, and due to the odd HP doesn't even take off the full 50% of its own health. Being low level is obviously what fuels pain split, and makes most residual damage far less threatening since it's rounded down against the low HP.

Notably, this set beats Imposter in a manner similar to Shedinja, but it doesn't lose to an errant Sand Stream/Snow Warning.

Flame Orb lets the WGer avoid status that would otherwise cripple it, and gives it free switch-ins after it's activated. Also, it allows the use of Spore or Toxic on the set without worrying about Magic Bounce. Again, the down-rounding of the residual damage makes its drawback much less of an issue.

Scrappy is also a viable counter to the Ghost/Darks as usual, especially since the ability doesn't announce itself as Mold Breaker does. Magic Guard, although not common, also does well against this once behind its sub. Taunt will stop the WGer from doing much of anything if you can land it. Endeavor is the only viable attacking move it can run but it can be ignored by Ghosts and has low PP.

Aside from stuff I've mentioned (most of which I fail to have on my team at any given time) how do you all go about checking/countering this set? I've also never run this myself so I'm unsure of the best movesets for it. Is there anything I should narrow down in my above write-up (or anything I outright missed)?

Also set needs a catchy name and I can't think of one because I'm tired.

In response to Toraen, seeing as my game revolves around hazards/sand I find these less of a pain then others probably do. If you Whirlwind them after a Curse they're usually less than 40-50% and with sufficient hazards up they die upon the next switch in. I also find if you can Trick a Choice item onto them it reduces their impact significantly.