Comments

Comment by Feato

Comment by tdrotim

Comment by Ashael

Comment by theakismaniac

this paired with itself (not unique), Perilous Bite, Sinister Revenge or Golem-Shard Sticker OH will be what to look for mutilate weapons in 3.1

due to the changes of poisons in 3.1 being PPM, going back to slow MH at least since faster weapons wont provide more poison damage anymore, or enough energy to offset doing more MH mutilate damage

fast OH might still be needed for keeping up deadly and may get more dps out of Focused Attacks energy than OH mutilate damage but some people are still coming up with double slow doing the most dps for pve Mut... 3.1 Master Poisoner may compensate for the slow speed when reapplying deadly after envenoms

Comment by Rhaksha

Drops from trash mobs in ulduar

Comment by Nopoint

As someone who's both used WD's and SR's in pve, the DP stacking isn't a concern. After you get your first envenom off, the stacking is nearly identical between daggers (yes, the 1.40 speed will stack ever so slightly faster, but not nearly enough to worry about your envenoms or anything of the sort).

If you do go one slow and one fast weapon, it will still be wisest to utilize the slower weapon in your offhand and the faster weapon in your mainhand. The method in which offhand specialization works is that fully talented your offhand still only deals 75% offhand damage (...untalented is 50% normal damage, the talent increases the 50% loss by 50% more, which is a 25% increase or 75% of what it would be unpenalized).

For this reason and the fact that muti will strike once with each hand, allowing a crit roll for each hand, it will always be wisest to equip the slower weapon in your offhand, and the faster in your mainhand. if you go slow/fast, if you only generate an offhand crit, you'll be doing significantly less damage.

I do however believe that slow/slow will be top for 3.1 (caveat significant DPS deviations), but we shall see.

Comment by frosiah

Rogues were predominantly fast main hand slow off hand pre 3.1 because Instant poison damage was ridiculously strong with high Attack Power and talents, so you HAD to have it on the fastest weapon possible when it was percentage based or you were gimping dps. Also, the reason you use Webbed Death (less dps, also less instant attack damage) over Sinister Revenge (more dps, more instant attack damage) in your main hand as a mutilate build was instant poison procs from finishers.

Now starting in 3.1, deadly poison stack building is somewhat irrelevant due to the new Master Poisoner changes and Instant Poison is changing from a percentage based proc to a frequency based proc. Instant poison can now go on a slow main hand and have a competitive number of procs compared to a fast Main Hand and still be procing off finishers.

Offhand Specialization has little to do with it.

"For this reason and the fact that muti will strike once with each hand, allowing a crit roll for each hand, it will always be wisest to equip the slower weapon in your offhand, and the faster in your main hand. if you go slow/fast, if you only generate an offhand crit, you'll be doing significantly less damage."

The game doesn't prefer offhand crits versus main hand crits with mutilate. I'm not sure where you were going with that.Also to restate Offhand Specialization, your talented damage will be: Main Hand: 100% Offhand 75%

I'm just going to hypothesize a bit for the sake of mutilate.Let's assume two daggers of equal damage, say they both do 180 dps, but different speeds of 1.8 versus 1.4. Their average damage would be 1.8 * 180 (324) and 1.4 * 180 (252).So if we put the fast one in the main hand, we would be getting an average damage mutilate of 252 * 100% + 324 * 75% = 495.If we put the slow one in the main hand, we would be getting an average damage mutilate of 324 * 100% + 252 * 75% = 513.Your argument about only generating offhand crits is invalid, the game rolls each attack separately. You're just as likely to get an offhand crit as you are a main hand crit. So, slow main hand is better for instant attacks, and by putting a fast dagger in your main hand, you gimp mutilate damage. The reason this was negligible in 3.0.8 was because of the maximization of instant poison procs which was better dps.

TL;DR Instant poison always goes on main hand, Deadly poison goes on offhand.Probably want to use the two best dps daggers you have regardless of speed, but put the slower one in the main hand.

edits: DURSPLELING

Comment by Nopoint

You've proven what I said in stating:

"If we put the slow one in the main hand, we would be getting an average damage mutilate of 324 * 100% + 252 * 75% = 513.Your argument about only generating offhand crits is invalid, the game rolls each attack separately. You're just as likely to get an offhand crit as you are a main hand crit."

This is applicably beneficial with attacks that only utilize the mainhand, such as backstab. If you do this with mutilate, a mainhand crit and offhand noncrit will show an increase in damage. However, a mainhand noncrit and a offhand crit will generate significantly reduced damage. For this reason you'd prefer (if using a slow and fast weapon) to use the slow weapon in your offhand, and the fast weapon in your main hand.

Poison procs have nothing to do with this, as a poison proc in the offhand or the mainhand will not be effected by offhand penalization. Under your assumption, it would be wisest (pre-3.1) to use a slow mainhand, fast offhand and just DP your mh and IP your oh.

This is clearly not the case.

In an ideal situation, we would be able to do what you're suggesting and if either hand crits have the mainhand always crit over the offhand, but to reiterate what I initially said, this is not the case with the function of mutilate.

Just to edit and clarify, I'm suggesting this providing you are to use a slow and a fast, slow/slow is where I'm placing my money for 3.1.

Comment by Nopoint

The function of which you've proven what was initially stated and agreed on but just went to put it into numbers.

The RNG function and the premise that mutilate attacks with both hands is the reason in which a faster weapon in the mainhand and slower in the offhand will out-damage the reverse. The fact that we have more damage potential with a slow mainhand and fast offhand is really rather irrelevant; by this token, we should use both slows always. (which is what I'm hinting at being the best possible combo at the moment, caveat DPS on said weapon)

The reason of which is that dependent on your crit rate, a crit generated through a mutilate will have equal probability to crit your mainhand as it does your offhand. Both calculations are factored into what your net result for total mutilate damage is.If one is to use a slow weapon paired with a fast weapon, it will be far more reliable to make the best of the damage ranges by placing the slow weapon in your offhand (to buffer the 25% damage reduction for offhand penalization) and to allow for even mutilates.

The premise you're working off of is a similar one to back when 31/8/12 was a very popular PVE build. The purpose it was popular to use slow/fast was because your offhand's damage was largely irrelevant to your actual DPS. You wanted good stats, reasonable DPS and something fast for instant poison procs. The mechanics of which are not shared with mutilate, as with backstab there is one crit roll, a higher crit base through puncturing wounds (at the time I believe it was titled improved backstab) as well as a variety of different variations from mutilate.

As of current, your simulation is assuming that each mutilate will provide predictable crits at equal amounts during a fight as well as not taking into consideration any of the offhand penalizations imposed on damage bonuses of mutilate.

Should you open up any regarded spreadsheet, you will find identical results.

Edit: it's also clear why you're leaving damage bonuses out of the equation and just using immensely simple calculations.If you'd like, I'll go through the motions with relevant weapons (lets say, Sinister Revenge and Webbed Death) in both the offhand and in the mainhand.

Comment by Zawarudo

This weapon paired with Golem-Shard Sticker in offhand, seems to be the best mutilate combo (Not counting yogg/algalon loot as we don't have their full loot tables yet) according to Aldriana's spreadsheet.

EDIT: This is no longer true. Bladetwister that drops from Freya hardmode is better for offhand. Daschal's is still the best known mainhand.

Comment by Doroo

HOLY CRAP! That's a dagger? That's looks like a whole axe!I cant imagane what happens if you stab someone with that THING.

Seriously, how would they just come up with the name Dashchal? NO MERE COINCIDENCE.

Comment by tedon

So, if I understand correctly...

Speed no longer is an important consideration for poison proc. However, speed is still useful for getting more focus attacks energy procs. Not sure what else it is useful for with a mutilate spec.

This means you would have to decide which is going to do you more good: More energy from the focused attacks, or more damage from mutilate. Personally, I am thinking I want more damage from mutilate, so I will be wishing I had 2 of these, running slow/slow.

Comment by Samminator

By Rhaksha 22 days ago (Patch 3.0.9)Drops from trash mobs in ulduar

Drops from trash mobs in heroic version in Ulduar ;)

Comment by rambaral

Add to that the fact that current spreadsheets show taking 3/3 MP is a personal DPS loss over splitting it with TtT. Depending on your OH speed any more than 2/3 MP is diminishing returns and if you've got a 1.4 OH, 1/3 MP is all you need - barring the lack of a ret pally of course.

Comment by tala

Won this dagger on 5/11/09 on random mob. one of the best main hand daggers you can get until your guild is working on hard mode Freya or Iron Council.

Comment by theakismaniac

apparently there is finally a 188 dagger called Fang of Oblivion from Iron Council Hard Mode that is better than this

the better pvp mutilate daggers (Furious Gladiator's Spike and Dirk) are also better than this, if you can reach the higher 2350 rating for them lol

Comment by Wydrion

Comment by wb1036

From the item level I'm assuming this only drops in 25man, can anyone confirm this?

Comment by Aphileon

"Let's assume two daggers of equal damage, say they both do 180 dps, but different speeds of 1.8 versus 1.4." then they wouldn't do equal damage if they had different speeds, so you wasted your time on this.

Comment by sgottolo

Comment by Elroir

Dear Alliance Characters,

Hereby I apologise for the inconvenient times you have been having recently in BGs.After obtaining two of these daggers my mutilate pounds you down to the ground.I will try not to kill you more then three times each battle (exceptions are made for deatknights and paladins ofcourse).

Yours Truly,

Calas

Comment by Tantojutsu

Just a comment on one of the screenshots. The caption says:"I'm disappointed Blizz used Golem Shard's skin for Daschal's Bite."

They are not the same model. The one in your off-hand has notches taken out of the blade, but on the one in your main-hand, which I assume is Daschal, the blade is smooth. I agree though, most of the Ulduar daggers look far too similar.

Comment by Narcosynthesis

You're right, and you're wrong. They are not the same model, but they have the same texture, which doesn't wrap around Daschal's model correctly making it look.. Well, terrible.

But most people are probably just happy to have it.

Comment by Phreq

Only drops from 25man ulduar

Comment by hoffmn57

the dagger has a new skin now since 3.2. looks a lot better imho.check it in 3D thats what it actually looks like now

Comment by chaosmight1

Just had an enhancement shammy take this over me ( a rogue ) was wondering if this is any good at all for that class/spec.

Comment by Neptunion

You wouldn't like an assasination rogue with two Daschal's Bite,belive me!