The FDA has a right to its opinion and its findings should be taken under advisement.People should still have the right to disregard that opinion.

"Opinion?" What you have is an "opinion". What they have is "science". Unless you're a "scientist" who specializes in food borne pathogens and disease, an "opinion" is all it will be.Me, I tend to believe in science, and don't get my panties in a knot because the scientists happen to work for the US government.People don't have the right to strain our overburdened medical system and spread disease amongst the rest of the populace because of an "opinion".

rewind2846"Opinion?" What you have is an "opinion". What they have is "science". Unless you're a "scientist" who specializes in food borne pathogens and disease, an "opinion" is all it will be.

Science is just an extremely well-founded opinion, not objective truth.

People don't have the right to strain our overburdened medical system and spread disease amongst the rest of the populace because of an "opinion".

Raw milk drinkers don't spread disease among the rest of the population. Only those who actually consume it are at risk. This was brought up in the other thread yesterday. The way the disease transfers from person to person is by touching or ingesting feces from an infected person. Oh, gosh, wow, apparently touching or ingesting human feces is unsafe, who knew?

Milk is gross and I don't drink it. Seriously...why on earthy would you want to drink another animals milk?

Total hypocrite disclaimer: I love cheese....

Only an American would drink a glass of milk. Disgusting. Use it to make butter and cheese and yogurt, put a bit in your coffee or tea, a bit here and there for cooking purposes and you're fine. Have some ice cream. All perfectly valid uses of milk. Do those instead.

All of you sheep who are actually supporting the government in this case are just.... such sheep.It's clearly labeled, you can only get it if you explicitly join the private organization, and anyone who buys it knows EXACTLY what they are getting into. I bet they are also signing waivers.

RanDomino:AppleOptionEscWhen it comes to food, "If I've never gotten sick off of it, it's 100% awesome and good and stop taking away muh freedoms". Or at least that's the response I get from my fellow Wisconsinites.

Have you considered stopping trying to take their freedoms?

Law only says you can't buy it ('cos others can' sell it to you). You want it so badly, go ahead and make your own.

awalkingecho:Alternatively we can get around to accepting the fact that we're the only species who utilizes the milk of a mammal that isn't our own and that it's not natural, and just stop drinking EITHER.

That works too.

We should stop cooking meat and cutting vegetables too, because that's just unnatural.

duenor:All of you sheep who are actually supporting the government in this case are just.... such sheep.It's clearly labeled, you can only get it if you explicitly join the private organization, and anyone who buys it knows EXACTLY what they are getting into. I bet they are also signing waivers.

Pockafrusta:Grew up drinking raw milk, eating fresh eggs and canning most of our veggies from the garden... Still kickin after 42 years.

The problem is not when you are milking your own cow, the problem comes from the industrialization of the process. The poisoning doesn't come from the milk it comes from the fact the udders are below the anus. The milk can be safe with the right precautions, but you really need to know the source.

Before labeling something as "foolish", why not look into the history of why it exists?

9 million people regularly drink raw milk in the US and 200 got sick. Those are pretty good odds and better than the numbers for medium rare beef.

Well then why not just walk up and take a bite out of the cow right after it's slaughtered? Maybe it's because we figured out that cooking not only improves the texture and makes it more digestible, but it kills most of the pathogens. What a concept!I don't want to take "odds" with my health. There's enough sh*t out there in the world to kill you without your even trying. Why tempt Darwin just by having a bowl of cereal? Not worth it.

Somaticasual:Folks, you can chance raw milk if you really want to feel different or ultra-organic.But really - there's a very good reason pasteurization was a breakthrough: people dying or getting ridiculously sick from illnesses caused by, wait for it - raw milk. The FDA didn't ban its sale to piss off the hippies - it banned it in the interest of public health.

This post illustrates the disconnect.

"You can chance raw milk if you really want to..."

So you agree the choice should be available; good. Except government wants to remove that choice. And then you go on to support the FDA in removing the choice.

RanDomino:rewind2846"Opinion?" What you have is an "opinion". What they have is "science". Unless you're a "scientist" who specializes in food borne pathogens and disease, an "opinion" is all it will be.

Science is just an extremely well-founded opinion, not objective truth.

"Opinions" are not provable, reproducible, or measurable. They are simply pulled from the ass.Consider: if I take a syringe of the Human Immune Deficiency Virus (HIV) responsible for AIDS, and say "in my opinion, if I inject this into your bloodstream you will not get sick and die" because I found one person who had HIV and didn't die... would you let me stick that needle in your arm?

The scientific data says "you're gonna die". The layman's observation tells you "you're gonna die". Over 30 years of history shows that "you're gonna die". So are you willing to take that chance on my opinion?

I'm not. If someone tells me that stepping off a cliff will kill me, I'm not going to stamp my feet like a toddler who doesn't get what he wants because someone told me to do something... I'm going to look over the edge of the cliff and conclude "while there is a slim chance a fall from this height may not kill me, let's not do this". That is where the stupid is coming from... not on the actual demerits of drinking a possibly disease carrying fluid, but about the recalcitrant "guvmint ain't gon' tell me nuthin!" mentality. These types of people consider their "independence from (certain) authority" to be more important than their own safety and the safety of their children.

Now I don't trust the government in all things, and no one should... not because it's THE GOVERNMENT, but because it's comprised of people and all that goes with that. But if it's something as simple as "boiling the milk so it kills the germs is a good thing" that might extend my life a few years past today, I'll go with that - whether it's the government giving me that advice or my own science training leading me to that conclusion.

There's way more important sh*t to deal with in this life. Learn to pick your fights.

While contaminated raw milk is dangerous, with some care and testing the hazard is minimal, especially with a small scale operation like this. Importantly, there are a lot of bureaucrats who are almost neurotically bacteriophobic. Some are even demanding that most food be irradiated just in case there are bacteria on it. This is irrational.

In Europe EU bureaucrats were demanding that Germany had to pasteurize its beer, and that French Camembert and Brie cheese had to be pasteurized as well, ruining them. The Germans and the French told the bureaucrats to go to hell.

Not all bacteria are bad. In fact, having a healthy intestinal flora is essential to good health. Even the infamous E. coli bacteria are essential for a healthy lower intestine, even if they are toxic elsewhere in the body.

And here is the zinger: raw milk is incredibly delicious. It makes pasteurized milk taste like powdered chalk in water. People drank it for several thousand years, and only a tiny number got sick from it. Based on taste alone, raw milk is worth the risk.

And the dairy industry knows this. Since they have to pasteurize their milk, they do not want competition with a better tasting product. So just like when they got a law passed that margarine could not be yellow, but had to come with a blue dye packet to be mixed by the consumer, their pressure on the USDA to forbid raw milk is just trying to keep down the competition.

RanDomino:rewind2846"Opinion?" What you have is an "opinion". What they have is "science". Unless you're a "scientist" who specializes in food borne pathogens and disease, an "opinion" is all it will be.

Science is just an extremely well-founded opinion, not objective truth.

People don't have the right to strain our overburdened medical system and spread disease amongst the rest of the populace because of an "opinion".

Raw milk drinkers don't spread disease among the rest of the population. Only those who actually consume it are at risk. This was brought up in the other thread yesterday. The way the disease transfers from person to person is by touching or ingesting feces from an infected person. Oh, gosh, wow, apparently touching or ingesting human feces is unsafe, who knew?

Somaticasual:Folks, you can chance raw milk if you really want to feel different or ultra-organic.But really - there's a very good reason pasteurization was a breakthrough: people dying or getting ridiculously sick from illnesses caused by, wait for it - raw milk. The FDA didn't ban its sale to piss off the hippies - it banned it in the interest of public health.

I'm fine with a giant warning label. But if people want it and are going out of their way to get it, there is no one getting hurt but potentially themselves and therefore no justification for a ban.

John Buck 41:rewind2846: There's way more important sh*t to deal with in this life. Learn to pick your fights.

Exactly. When are you going to start railing against alcohol, tobacco, and all the shiat in processed foods that people (by a factor of a gazillion) consume more of than users of raw milk?

Alcohol killed one of my uncles, and cigarettes killed my mother back in the 80's (2 packs a day for over 20 years) so I have no great love for either of them. However, your analogy is flawed in that both alcoholism and nicotine are both addictions, while drinking "raw milk"... isn't.

People who think that the red liquid seeping out of a rare steak is "blood" are morons.

Really? How many other intramuscular bodily fluids do mammals have that are red?This isn't 20,000 BC. Cook your damn food.

It's a good idea to try to avoid using your own ignorance as a point of argument. I occasionally consume raw beef and often consume several types of raw fish, none of which are bleeding. The red liquid in a raw steak is a mixture of a protein called "myoglobin" and, mostly, water.

I don't consume raw milk. I have, when I lived on a farm. From the tank to my refrigerator, it went bad in less than 48 hours. Tasted great until then, though.

rewind2846:John Buck 41: rewind2846: There's way more important sh*t to deal with in this life. Learn to pick your fights.

Exactly. When are you going to start railing against alcohol, tobacco, and all the shiat in processed foods that people (by a factor of a gazillion) consume more of than users of raw milk?

Alcohol killed one of my uncles, and cigarettes killed my mother back in the 80's (2 packs a day for over 20 years) so I have no great love for either of them. However, your analogy is flawed in that both alcoholism and nicotine are both addictions, while drinking "raw milk"... isn't.

Carth:It is water and myoglobin.You cook you food. Steak tartare is delicious.

MadAzza:The red liquid in a raw steak is a mixture of a protein called "myoglobin" and, mostly, water..

Myoglobin comes from damaged muscle tissue. It is a byproduct of blood, part of the oxygen carrying protein chain that gets O2 to muscle fibers. That's why the term "-globin" is in the name. It is used as the muscle works as an O2 supply before the rest of the bloodstream gets into gear during exertion.Blood or blood related compounds should not be leaking from food as you eat it, unless you happen to live in the tiger cage at your local zoo. That's extremely nasty.

MadAzza:From the tank to my refrigerator, it went bad in less than 48 hours. Tasted great until then, though.

Could that be becuse there were... microorganisms... in it which made it "go bad"? Some sort of warning that humans have become familiar through evolution with which tells them "don't drink it", like the smell of sh*t which keeps them from touching the turds?

rewind2846:MadAzza:From the tank to my refrigerator, it went bad in less than 48 hours. Tasted great until then, though.

Could that be becuse there were... microorganisms... in it which made it "go bad"? Some sort of warning that humans have become familiar through evolution with which tells them "don't drink it", like the smell of sh*t which keeps them from touching the turds?

Yes, absolutely.

Let's see... what could help eliminate those nasty bugs... hmmmm...?

Pasteurization, for one thing. Did you see the part where I said I don't drink raw milk? Or is your mistaken assumption that I drink the blood of calves somehow lead you to another erroneous conclusion?

If you want to argue about raw milk, you'll have to do it with someone else.

Carth:If you've never had raw milk before you're missing out. The stuff tastes delicious and will make normal store bought milk seem undrinkable after a few weeks.

indeed. Raw milk tastes amazing.

I wonder if the risk of contamination is inherent in raw milk or if it is the process of milking or storage that contaminates it? If I had my own cow that I hand milked and drank the milk within a day would there still be a risk of illness?I was raised on such raw milk and we never got ill so I wonder...

I also heard that some people that are allergic to pasteurised milk but can drink raw milk fine.

ginkor:While contaminated raw milk is dangerous, with some care and testing the hazard is minimal, especially with a small scale operation like this. Importantly, there are a lot of bureaucrats who are almost neurotically bacteriophobic. Some are even demanding that most food be irradiated just in case there are bacteria on it. This is irrational.

In Europe EU bureaucrats were demanding that Germany had to pasteurize its beer, and that French Camembert and Brie cheese had to be pasteurized as well, ruining them. The Germans and the French told the bureaucrats to go to hell.

Not all bacteria are bad. In fact, having a healthy intestinal flora is essential to good health. Even the infamous E. coli bacteria are essential for a healthy lower intestine, even if they are toxic elsewhere in the body.

And here is the zinger: raw milk is incredibly delicious. It makes pasteurized milk taste like powdered chalk in water. People drank it for several thousand years, and only a tiny number got sick from it. Based on taste alone, raw milk is worth the risk.

And the dairy industry knows this. Since they have to pasteurize their milk, they do not want competition with a better tasting product. So just like when they got a law passed that margarine could not be yellow, but had to come with a blue dye packet to be mixed by the consumer, their pressure on the USDA to forbid raw milk is just trying to keep down the competition.

The strain of E. Coli that people are (rightly) concerned about is O157:H7, and it is not found in the intestines of healthy humans. But it can be found in the intestines of some otherwise healthy cattle.While relatively uncommon, E. coli O157:H7 can naturally be found in the intestinal contents of some cattle.[15] Cattle lack the shiga toxin receptor, Globotriaosylceramide, and therefore can be asymptomatic carriers of the bacterium.[16] The prevalence of E. coli O157:H7 in North American feedlot cattle herds ranges from 0 to 60%....

...Infection with E. coli O157:H7 follows ingestion of contaminated food or water, or oral contact with contaminated surfaces. It is highly virulent, with a low infectious dose: an inoculation of fewer than 10 to 100 CFU of E. coli O157:H7 is sufficient to cause infection, compared to over one-million CFU for other pathogenic E. coli strains.[18]

A main source of infection is undercooked ground beef; other sources include consumption of unpasteurized milk and juice, raw produce and salami, and contact with infected live animals. Waterborne transmission occurs through swimming in contaminated lakes, pools, or drinking inadequately treated water. The organism is easily transmitted from person to person and has been difficult to control in child day-care centers.

So, raw milk fanciers get a dose of O157:H7, and spread it around to others. It's a nasty bug.E. coli 0157:H7 is notorious because it can cause additional complications in children and the elderly; renal failure, anemia, and dehydration especially for children (termed HUS or hemolytic uremic syndrome) and spontaneous bleeding, organ failures, and mental changes in the elderly (termed TTP or thrombotic thrombocytopenic purpura). Some of these patients develop permanent disabilities or die.

my herniated disc:Carth: If you've never had raw milk before you're missing out. The stuff tastes delicious and will make normal store bought milk seem undrinkable after a few weeks.

indeed. Raw milk tastes amazing.

I wonder if the risk of contamination is inherent in raw milk or if it is the process of milking or storage that contaminates it?

All of the above, but since there are so many steps between the udder and the machine that caps the bottles, I think it's likely that most of the contamination is going to happen post-cow. Probably depends on the bug, though -- I'm guessing some bugs are likely to come from the cow, others probably only contaminate the milk somewhere else. Listeria is probably one of the latter. I'm not a microbiologist, though.

If I had my own cow that I hand milked and drank the milk within a day would there still be a risk of illness?I was raised on such raw milk and we never got ill so I wonder...

Probably depends on how good you are at washing up, the condition of your equipment (no corrosion/pitting/cracks/other uncleanable places), and the health of your herd.

my herniated discI wonder if the risk of contamination is inherent in raw milk or if it is the process of milking or storage that contaminates it? If I had my own cow that I hand milked and drank the milk within a day would there still be a risk of illness?I was raised on such raw milk and we never got ill so I wonder...

Partially inherent, partially a matter of udders being smeared with cow shiat, so if any of that gets into the bottles then without pasteurization... yeah.The reason you never got ill is because it takes a little while for the harmful bacteria to multiply to a dangerous level. In an industrial agricultural system, that point can be reached before the milk even hits the grocery store shelves- between waiting for it to be picked up, processing and packaging, transportation, and stocking. And then it could sit on the shelf for a few days before being bought, and then another few days at home before it gets drank. Two weeks is really pushing it for raw milk.But drinking it with a few days or a week is generally safe, assuming the producer is careful to keep everything clean on their end (which a consumer would be a fool to not inspect for themselves periodically).

I also heard that some people that are allergic to pasteurised milk but can drink raw milk fine.

It supposedly contains bacteria which can break down lactic acid. Those bacteria are killed in pasteurization. I don't know if it's true but that's the argument.

Repo ManThe organism is easily transmitted from person to person and has been difficult to control in child day-care centers.

Maybe you should read the rest of the article

Transmission is via the fecal-oral route...Infection with E. coli O157:H7 follows ingestion of contaminated food or water, or oral contact with contaminated surfaces

Oh, wow, you shouldn't have contact with human shiat! This is a totally new development and, I'm sure, a shock to all. I mean, it must be totally safe to eat the shiat of a person as long as they don't drink raw milk, right?And maybe it spreads in day care centers because kids are shiatting their pants all the time? I'm sure day care centers would be totally safe from disease if it wasn't for those darn raw milk drinkers.