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Most folks here are really good people. Several good ones who attend church, believe in a higher power, and are complimented but not controlled by what they thought they learned in bible study.

Most get the plan, laid out in the bible. But there are a few who use it to empower their obvious delusions of grandeur.
I suggest for those who wish to attack, start witch hunts, and call each other names take a hard look at their own actions.

Perhaps a review is in order.

In Matthew 23, Jesus expressed his deep contempt for true religious hypocrites. Here are some of the charges he leveled against them:

They give out laws to others, but they do not live by them (vs. 3-4)
They love impressive, public religious displays, and being referred to with religious titles (vs. 5-12)
They win converts to their own religion, but not to God (vs. 13-15)
They re-interpret their own laws in order to suit their own purpose (vs. 16-22)
They emphasize minuscule religious details, yet ignore the most important truths (vs. 23-24)
They keep the outward appearance clean, while leaving the inside corrupt
(vs.25-28)
They deny their own sinfulness (vs. 29-36)
This is both hypocrisy AND arrogance; none of these should characterize a true, born-again Christian. If they do, you have good reason to doubt the validity of their faith.

Man! You people really got upset by this statement... didn't you? Well to tell you the truth, 55 of 58 men who signed the Declaration of Independence and the United States Constitution were Deists and Free Masons, including Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, Thomas Paine. John Adams was a Unitarian in his belief! Nowhere in either of the two aforementioned documents will anyone find the word "God", or "Jesus", they aren't there! Instead you will find the term "Creator" used. I think our forefathers were thinking ahead to when we became the multinational, multi-ethnic nation we are today when they chose to use "Creator" instead.

MSgt, USAF (ret), Life Member - NRA, Life Member - NAHC,
Life Member - NCOA, Member - USCCA, Member - NCGR,
Member - Oathkeepers

dear theicemanmpls, it is of a truth that those that defend the faith must do so lawfully, which is not always an easy task to do. Nevertheless, the topic of whether America is or ever was a Christian nation is found in our historical documents. When evaluating this question, the state constitutions provide the evidence at the founding of this nation. These preceded the Federal constitution by decades in many cases and did openly show allegiance to the God of the Bible. We soon forget that the US constitution set out a limited government with the states and the individuals having the majority of the rights.

As the current overbearing Feds assume more and more power, it is easy to think it was always so, but that is not the case. Many states had oaths of office that forbid anyone but Christians from holding office. In addition, it was not until 1962 with Engel vs Vitale that the US Supreme court ruled school prayer was unconstitutional, overturning over 150 years of decisions which did affirm America was a Christian nation. Those that declare America was never a Christian nation disavow the history of America. The first amendment forbid the establishment of a single denomination of Christianity as was the case in Europe. A review of the historical documents proves that true.

Since 1962, from my mother's generation to my son's generation, we no longer have the Christian ideals that once permeated every aspect of our society and our politics. It is once again easy for those that do not know and understand our culture, our society and it's history to look at where we are at today and believe it was always so, but this is not the case. How quickly we have forgotten the repeal of blue laws throughout this whole country forbidding commerce on Sundays. How and why did we get those laws in America in the first place if we were not overtly a Christian nation. I do not waste too much time any more with such debates. A comment here and there will suffice.

theicemanmpls, you should also be aware that the Bible also states to let the blind lead the blind. Sometimes that is the best advice in discussions of this sort. Jesus also said we are not to cast our pearls before swine. It is quite easy to use Scripture to cast whatever aspersions we would wish to throw against those that disagree with us. To learn from them of the truth of salvation is a completely different matter. They hold the power of eternal life to those that seek their truth. I would hope that you would learn of both the history of Christianity in America as well as the truth of the gospel from which America derived it's blessings. We are entering a time when God shall withdraw his hand of protection because we have turned away from God in the last two generations. Are we a Christian nation, that is debatable today, but the history is already written. Yes, we did start this experiment as a Christian nation. If we wish to continue this noble experiment, I would recommend returning to our foundations.

Man! You people really got upset by this statement... didn't you? Well to tell you the truth, 55 of 58 men who signed the Declaration of Independence and the United States Constitution were Deists and Free Masons, including Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, Thomas Paine. John Adams was a Unitarian in his belief! Nowhere in either of the two aforementioned documents will anyone find the word "God", or "Jesus", they aren't there! Instead you will find the term "Creator" used. I think our forefathers were thinking ahead to when we became the multinational, multi-ethnic nation we are today when they chose to use "Creator" instead.

Dear Ed, the constitution took place in 1789, we became an independent nation in 1776 as a collection of independent states. I would advise you to look at the state constitutions to find the answer of allegiance to Jesus Christ as our Lord and Creator. Of a truth, many were Free Masons and deists as you state, and indeed they may have envisioned a day when they could overturn Christianity in this nation, but that still does not in the least diminish the historical foundations of this nation. It did not start with the constitution, that was a later development. The nearly 200 years that preceded this document does indeed show the truth of our Christian heritage. In addition, it was not until 1962 that the seeds of your deists prevailed against our Christian heritage.

We so soon forget how America was founded as independent states with a weak central government under the articles of confederation that then went one step further with a limited federal government. The states had their own armies and their own navies and levied taxes. The enemy of the cross has always worked from the inside to repeal that which we were founded on. When the country was openly Christian in our society and in our politics, those deists and Free Masons openly professed to be Christians as well in their speech, but you are right, there is a large difference between the Federal constitution and the state constitutions that did openly profess Christianity in their documents. However, the Federal constitution did in no manner overturn any of those state constitutions even at its onset.

Is America a Christian nation? Absolutely from the perspective of 1776. In 2010, we have a Christian remnant among a crowd of pagans. The deists are prevailing today, but God sits in heaven laughing at their trivial efforts. Mark well all that the Bible states for God shall prevail no matter what the enemies of the cross plan and plot against Him.

Man! You people really got upset by this statement... didn't you? Well to tell you the truth, 55 of 58 men who signed the Declaration of Independence and the United States Constitution were Deists and Free Masons, including Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, Thomas Paine. John Adams was a Unitarian in his belief! Nowhere in either of the two aforementioned documents will anyone find the word "God", or "Jesus", they aren't there! Instead you will find the term "Creator" used. I think our forefathers were thinking ahead to when we became the multinational, multi-ethnic nation we are today when they chose to use "Creator" instead.

Ed have you ever read The Virginia Act For Establishing Religious Freedom? Do you know who the author of that document is? I will cut and paste a few lines from that document so you can see some of the words and provide the link if you choose to read further:

Well aware that Almighty God hath created the mind free; that all attempts to influence it by temporal punishments or burdens, or by civil incapacitations, tend only to beget habits of hypocrisy and meanness, and are a departure from the plan of the Holy Author of our religion, who being Lord both of body and mind......The Virginia Act For Establishing Religious Freedom - Religious Freedom Page

The author doesn't sound like a Deists to me A God that created, A holy Author of their religion, Lord of Body and mind. The reason I mention this document is because of who the author is.

Now for a few quotes of the founding fathers:
John Adams:
“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”
• “[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.”
–John Adams in a letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress

Charles Carroll - signer of the Declaration of Independence
" Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure...are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments." [Source: To James McHenry on November 4, 1800.]

Benjamin Rush - signer of the Declaration of Independence

"I do not believe that the Constitution was the offspring of inspiration, but I am as perfectly satisfied that the Union of the United States in its form and adoption is as much the work of a Divine Providence as any of the miracles recorded in the Old and New Testament."

"[W]without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure...are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Source: To James McHenry on November 4,
1800. Bernard C. Steiner, The Life and Correspondence of James McHenry, (Cleveland: The Burrows Brothers,1907), p. 475.

Charles Carroll of Carrollton
Signer of the Declaration of Independence

Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime & pure, [and] which denounces against the wicked eternal misery, and [which] insured to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments.

(Source: Bernard C. Steiner, The Life and Correspondence of James McHenry (Cleveland: The Burrows Brothers, 1907), p. 475. In a letter from Charles Carroll to James McHenry of November 4, 1800.)

James Wilson:
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution
Supreme Court Justice appointed by George Washington
Spoke 168 times during the Constitutional Convention

"Christianity is part of the common law"
[Sources: James Wilson, Course of Lectures [vol 3, p.122]; and quoted in Updegraph v. The Commonwealth, 11 Serg, & R. 393, 403 (1824).]

The three branches of the U.S. Government: Judicial, Legislative, Executive
• At the Constitutional Convention of 1787, James Madison proposed the plan to divide the central government into three branches. He discovered this model of government from the Perfect Governor, as he read Isaiah 33:22;
“For the LORD is our judge,
the LORD is our lawgiver,
the LORD is our king;
He will save us.”

Article 22 of the constitution of Delaware (1776)
Required all officers, besides taking an oath of allegiance, to make and subscribe to the following declaration:
• "I, [name], do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God, blessed for evermore; and I do acknowledge the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by divine inspiration." George Read was one of the signers of that document an also was a signer of the Declaration of Independence

You see the signers of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution may not have written the word Christianity and the name Jesus in either of those documents but that doesn't change their own views and belief's Thats the beauty of it all they left it out for Religious freedom.

Article I. There shall be a supreme executive magistrate, who shall be styled "The governor of the commonwealth of Massachusetts;" and whose title shall be "His Excellency."

Art. II. The governor shall be chosen annually; and no person shall be eligible to this office, unless, at the time of his election, he shall have been an inhabitant of this commonwealth for seven years next preceding; and unless he shall, at the same time, be seized, in his own right, of a freehold, within the commonwealth, of the value of one thousand pounds; and unless he shall declare himself to be of the Christian religion. . .

CHAPTER VI.

Oaths and Subscriptions; Incompatibility of and Exclusion from Offices; Pecuniary Qualifications; Commissions; Writs; Confirmation of Laws; Habeas Corpus; The Enacting Style; Continuance of Officers; Provision for a Future Revisal of the Constitution, etc.

Article I. Any person chosen governor, lieutenant-governor, councillor, senator, or representative, and accepting the trust, shall, before he proceed to execute the duties of his place or office, make and subscribe the following declaration, viz:

"I, A.B., do declare that I believe the Christian religion, and have a firm persuasion of its truth; and that I am seized and possessed, in my own right, of the property required by the constitution, as one qualification for the office or place to which I am elected."

How far MA has fallen from its origins as a Christian haven. It was once the law of the land that no one could hold any office without professing not only Christian faith but be convinced of it's truth. Yes, America was a Christian nation without any doubt. Is it any more? Part of the falling away for sure. To answer the question of whether America is or was a Christian nation, the answers are in the state constitutions for sure as well as hundreds of other documents. This only changed in 1962 with Engel vs Vitale which overturned all of the prior rulings that we are a Christian nation. You don't have to look far to answer this question, you just need to know where to look. Please note that the Federal constitution did not over turn any of the state constitutions. Freedom of religion is a Christian principle since we must all stand before our Creator who is Jesus Christ and give account for all that we have done whether good or bad. Becoming a born again Christian which is the only way to salvation is a personal and individual decision that is not nor shall ever be coerced. People that do not understand Christianity likewise do not understand what the original intent of the first amendment was, to prevent a single denomination in a state run religion like they had in Europe. It never denied the Christian heritage of America. 200 years later, people have not only forgotten our Christian heritage, they have likewise forgotten who their Creator really is.

just by some of the comments in this thread, and by other similar threads of religious discussions, should be enough for most to understand why we should not have any religious affiliation within our govt. All of the replies have been argumentative. There are too many different opinions when it comes to religion. The christians will complain that this is a christian nation because our forefathers were of that belief. The jews will complain to not forget about them because they faught in the rev. war.

Throughout history there have been many different religions, and even now there are hundreds of different religions. Even established religions have different offshoots. How can ANY govt claim that one religion is better than another. Especially our (the U.S. govt or country, is what I reffer to when I say our) that is made up of many different peoples, from many different places, and from many different beliefs; regardless of what our founding fathers religious backgrounds were.

I believe that our founding fathers had the intention that "everyman is created equal", and that the intention was to form a country with high moral fiber that would treat every citizen the the respect that he/she deserves. Not that when people came to our country, or the citizens already in the country had to follow whatever religious beliefs that were being observed by the founders.

I do think that religion (generally speaking) can have a useful place in society. Where a religion can teach morals, and love for fellow man. However, religion is not a requirement in order to teach these things. This is where our country has started going afoul. Either the people in office have either never been taught these basic fundementals, or they have simply forgotten. They have been corrupted by greed and power, and are no longer looking out for the best interests of the people. But to say that this is because of a lack of religion in our govt is rediculous. How can we justify that a govt should have a religious background, when there is no concrete evidence or proof (other than a book that was written by man, and editted over many different times by men) to make a definate conclusion that a religion is true?

dear theicemanmpls, it is of a truth that those that defend the faith must do so lawfully, which is not always an easy task to do. Nevertheless, the topic of whether America is or ever was a Christian nation is found in our historical documents. When evaluating this question, the state constitutions provide the evidence at the founding of this nation. These preceded the Federal constitution by decades in many cases and did openly show allegiance to the God of the Bible. We soon forget that the US constitution set out a limited government with the states and the individuals having the majority of the rights.

As the current overbearing Feds assume more and more power, it is easy to think it was always so, but that is not the case. Many states had oaths of office that forbid anyone but Christians from holding office. In addition, it was not until 1962 with Engel vs Vitale that the US Supreme court ruled school prayer was unconstitutional, overturning over 150 years of decisions which did affirm America was a Christian nation. Those that declare America was never a Christian nation disavow the history of America. The first amendment forbid the establishment of a single denomination of Christianity as was the case in Europe. A review of the historical documents proves that true.

Since 1962, from my mother's generation to my son's generation, we no longer have the Christian ideals that once permeated every aspect of our society and our politics. It is once again easy for those that do not know and understand our culture, our society and it's history to look at where we are at today and believe it was always so, but this is not the case. How quickly we have forgotten the repeal of blue laws throughout this whole country forbidding commerce on Sundays. How and why did we get those laws in America in the first place if we were not overtly a Christian nation. I do not waste too much time any more with such debates. A comment here and there will suffice.

theicemanmpls, you should also be aware that the Bible also states to let the blind lead the blind. Sometimes that is the best advice in discussions of this sort. Jesus also said we are not to cast our pearls before swine. It is quite easy to use Scripture to cast whatever aspersions we would wish to throw against those that disagree with us. To learn from them of the truth of salvation is a completely different matter. They hold the power of eternal life to those that seek their truth. I would hope that you would learn of both the history of Christianity in America as well as the truth of the gospel from which America derived it's blessings. We are entering a time when God shall withdraw his hand of protection because we have turned away from God in the last two generations. Are we a Christian nation, that is debatable today, but the history is already written. Yes, we did start this experiment as a Christian nation. If we wish to continue this noble experiment, I would recommend returning to our foundations.

More like "One Nation, Under God(s), with Liberty and Justice for all - even those whose idea of God is different from yours."

I'll go along with that.

Just remember, Betsy Ross came on the scene with the U.S. flag long after your so-called "God." Linking the two has been strictly prohibited, as was seen in many court cases, and will continue to be seen struck down until you get it through your thick heads that Christians have no more claim to anything nationally shared in this country than anybody else.

More like "One Nation, Under God(s), with Liberty and Justice for all - even those whose idea of God is different from yours."

I'll go along with that.

Just remember, Betsy Ross came on the scene with the U.S. flag long after your so-called "God." Linking the two has been strictly prohibited, as was seen in many court cases, and will continue to be seen struck down until you get it through your thick heads that Christians have no more claim to anything nationally shared in this country than anybody else.

No liberty for those whose "god" instructs them to kill all unbelievers, but plenty of justice would be ok by me.

That this country was founded on Judeo-Christian principles is without dispute to any thinking person. Like it or not, the country was founded by northern Europeans of various Christian sects, for the most part. Just like the American Indians and others defend their culture, so we "Judeo Christians" defend ours. Don't like it? Leave.

My "thick head" is an effective shield against your "big mouth".

Prov. 27:3 - "Stone is heavy and sand a burden, but provocation by a fool is heavier than both"