OK, but who's to say when a baby is viable? As far as I know, nobody has any real concrete idea and most babies are a case-by-case basis when they're 5, 6, 7 months old. Not to mention any number of things that can go wrong when a baby is presumed viable.

Are we supposed to take probable abortions and test these babies to see when they would be viable? That's a bit inhumane.

Are you referring to the legal aspect or the medical aspect? For legal cases, it's based on generally accepted scientific evidence. I assume that medically, it is the same. It's my understanding that there is a pretty clear point where a fetus has ANY chance of survival and where it doesn't, and that is where the line is drawn. (I could be wrong on that)

Well that changes all the time. Just a couple years ago, a pre-term delivery born before the 25th week was considered unviable. But we're learning more, technology is improving, and now neonates born at 23 weeks are leaving Rainbow and Akron Children's and leading a normal life.

So how do you set the legal definition on a set point that keeps moving?

The law evolves all of the time. If a new viability point is established, that's where you set it. Expert testimony.

I think that I read somewhere that the 19th kid of the mega-family, the Duggars, was born at 19 weeks. Amazing.

Applying a legal standard in court is far, far different than politicians writing legislation.

But the courts only INTERPRET the law.

In a perfect world. Back before the justices became puppets to, heh hem, politicians.

In the end it's still the law makers who set the tone. They're the ones who draw that line.

So, let's just say they decide to no longer treat any patient with such and such condition. Someone in your family has that condition. Do you want their choice of fighting or dying placed in the hands of a Trafficant? I don't.

You guys are missing the whole point of the commercial. What if Gloria James had decided to abort her illigitimate son? They're playing with human beings lives.

It's not "her" fetus, anymore than the babies that are shaken and abused and abandoned property of the Aholes who can't control themselves (and don't deserve to live IMO).

Funny, when there was a rumor that the new health care bill included cutting off health care once a person reached a certain age, it sounded like an episode of Logans Run. Everybody who bought in was up in arms.

It's the SAME THING. Some politician drawing a line in the sand. If you reach the age of ## and you get a disease, you're done. You kill a baby before this age, we'll pay for it, if you kill a baby after that age, you're a murderer.

If they made it legal for someone to kill you for their own convenience, we would hear a different tune...

JFC, it's like listening to my dad bitch about foreign imports of cars and how the government should have cut that off long ago, and that's why the economy sucks now - it's all Reagan's fault.

It is what it is. It already exists. All you can do now is adapt.

So, in terms of abortion laws, they're here. 99% sure they're not going anywhere. So, you adapt/compromise. Make them rare. Continue caring about the fetus once it's born - better child care, health care, adoption, foster care, the whole damn thing. That's the only way anything is going to change. Debating it isn't going to change a damn thing.

It's not "her" fetus, anymore than the babies that are shaken and abused and abandoned property of the Aholes who can't control themselves (and don't deserve to live IMO).

So I assume you would help pay to raise these children, that are unwanted yet still brought into the world by parents who neither can afford nor want to raise the baby? You must have one deep wallet. Comparing abortion which is a privacy issue, to shaking babies, which is a crime is absurd. You have zero right to tell a woman what to do with something that is apart of her.

If they made it legal for someone to kill you for their own convenience, we would hear a different tune...

You're trying to blur lines between issues that aren't even close to being similar.

Abortion is the greatest example of legal genocide in this century. I hate how the people protesting the commercial are pro-choice which is kind of ironic because they are kind of telling people what choice to make instead of letting them choose. Severe medical circumstances should be the only reason to allow abortion.

"If we take Clark with our 2nd round pick as SD suggests, I will tie my penis in a knot." -------- Ziner on drafting Daryll Clark

Unless you own a vagina, it really doesn't matter what you think. If people like you gave a shit about kids half as much after they were born as you do when they are up inside somebody else, this world would be a much better place.

municipalmutt wrote:Unless you own a vagina, it really doesn't matter what you think. If people like you gave a shit about kids half as much after they were born as you do when they are up inside somebody else, this world would be a much better place.

Well there has to be a higher power than the parents. People shouldn't be able to have abortions because of the fear of being unable to raise a child. If thats the case then the parents should find an alternative means. Who is going to represent the human life being killed. Just because you can procreate doesn't mean people should have ownership of life. Really the argument comes down to whether or not you believe in a higher power. If you're an atheist then abortion isn't a big deal.

Pictures deleted from this post. Show a little tact. ~ Swerb

"If we take Clark with our 2nd round pick as SD suggests, I will tie my penis in a knot." -------- Ziner on drafting Daryll Clark

municipalmutt wrote:Unless you own a vagina, it really doesn't matter what you think. If people like you gave a shit about kids half as much after they were born as you do when they are up inside somebody else, this world would be a much better place.

My only problem with this POV is that there are two people involved in creating the child. What if daddy is completely against aborting the baby?

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

municipalmutt wrote:Unless you own a vagina, it really doesn't matter what you think. If people like you gave a shit about kids half as much after they were born as you do when they are up inside somebody else, this world would be a much better place.

My only problem with this POV is that there are two people involved in creating the child. What if daddy is completely against aborting the baby?

This is an interesting and valid point and it's one that needs to be explored. If the father wants to raise the child I think he should have a say. Then again he doesn't have to carry it for 9 months.

Really the argument comes down to whether or not you believe in a higher power. If you're an atheist then abortion isn't a big deal.

No. The argument comes down to personal rights. You want to force your beliefs on other people, taking away a choice they should have. It's so naive to think outlawing abortion will get rid of it. It won't, it just forces it into the back alleys.

CDT you say it comes down to personal rights, yet the child is not any one person's property b/c of the fact there are two involved parties in creating the child. How do you determine who has more ownership of an unborn child (let alone a child already born)? Possession 9/10ths of the law? Should dad be able to sue for murder if mom has an abortion without his consent?

One thing that personally bugs the shit out of me on the abortion topic is the fact that there is a law in place based on a case that was a complete lie. That is fucked up.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

FUDU wrote:CDT you say it comes down to personal rights, yet the child is not any one person's property b/c of the fact there are two involved parties in creating the child. How do you determine who has more ownership of an unborn child (let alone a child already born)?

I don't know how you determine ownership. That's something I think the courts will have to decide. In a perfect world the mother would carry the baby and allow the father to raise it. But I don't see how you can force her to carry it.

FTR i'm not "Pro Abortion", i'm pro choice. No one is forcing women to have an abortion, it's simply an option should they not have the ability to care for a child.

I don't know how you determine ownership. That's something I think the courts will have to decide. In a perfect world the mother would carry the baby and allow the father to raise it. But I don't see how you can force her to carry it.

FTR i'm not "Pro Abortion", i'm pro choice. No one is forcing women to have an abortion, it's simply an option should they not have the ability to care for a child.

I understand that point, my problem with it is simply, shouldn't the woman know before getting pregnant whether or not she (or they) have the ability to care for it? Nobody is forcing the woman to get pregnant.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

I don't know how you determine ownership. That's something I think the courts will have to decide. In a perfect world the mother would carry the baby and allow the father to raise it. But I don't see how you can force her to carry it.

FTR i'm not "Pro Abortion", i'm pro choice. No one is forcing women to have an abortion, it's simply an option should they not have the ability to care for a child.

I understand that point, my problem with it is simply, shouldn't the woman know before getting pregnant whether or not she (or they) have the ability to care for it? Nobody is forcing the woman to get pregnant.

Once again, in a perfect world, yes. But people make mistakes, condoms break, and so on. There's a million scenarios. There are alot of kids brought up in enviroments that you wouldn't send your worst enemy into.

municipalmutt wrote:Unless you own a vagina, it really doesn't matter what you think. If people like you gave a shit about kids half as much after they were born as you do when they are up inside somebody else, this world would be a much better place.

My only problem with this POV is that there are two people involved in creating the child. What if daddy is completely against aborting the baby?

Sorry Donny but until Daddy can incubate a kid we lack the the necessary hardware to be the one making that decision. Our decision comes down to condom or bareback. I know it sucks but that's the reality of it.

Most reasonable people can understand the difference between a sentient being and a lump of cells. I have always been against third trimester abortions but in the first three months were not dealing with those pictures that the wacky racist fundaMENTAList posted. Maybe we should abort future black QBs eh Kleagle?

municipalmutt wrote:Unless you own a vagina, it really doesn't matter what you think. If people like you gave a shit about kids half as much after they were born as you do when they are up inside somebody else, this world would be a much better place.

My only problem with this POV is that there are two people involved in creating the child. What if daddy is completely against aborting the baby?

Sorry Donny but until Daddy can incubate a kid we lack the the necessary hardware to be the one making that decision. Our decision comes down to condom or bareback. I know it sucks but that's the reality of it.

Most reasonable people can understand the difference between a sentient being and a lump of cells. I have always been against third trimester abortions but in the first three months were not dealing with those pictures that the wacky racist fundaMENTAList posted. Maybe we should abort future black QBs eh Kleagle?

No sperm.

No baby.

To dismiss daddy's rights is disingenuous and flat out inconsistent with reason.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

So I assume you would help pay to raise these children, that are unwanted yet still brought into the world by parents who neither can afford nor want to raise the baby? You must have one deep wallet. Comparing abortion which is a privacy issue, to shaking babies, which is a crime is absurd.

Yeah let's kill people, so we don't have to pay for them. I see who I'm talking to now. So this fetus has NO chance of being a useful person, getting a job, inventing anything, discovering anything.

Next, let's slaughter anybody who's too old to work. What a freaking drain on the system. Those old shits cost us millions of dollars. Kill them all.

Never mind the fact that there are no freaking jobs anyhow. I would bet there are several people on here unemployed. Sorry, you're a drain on our money, you're dead too.

Of course the fact that we're discussing two MILLIONAIRES who weren't aborted just blew right over your fuckin head. LeBron is a real drain on society isn't he. Hell he got Gloria and probably at least a dozen more OFF the system rolls. Christ.

You have zero right to tell a woman what to do with something that is apart of her.

You have zero right to tell a living human being they need to die for your convenience.

If they made it legal for someone to kill you for their own convenience, we would hear a different tune...

You're trying to blur lines between issues that aren't even close to being similar.

Really the argument comes down to whether or not you believe in a higher power. If you're an atheist then abortion isn't a big deal.

No. The argument comes down to personal rights. You want to force your beliefs on other people, taking away a choice they should have. It's so naive to think outlawing abortion will get rid of it. It won't, it just forces it into the back alleys.

Abortion WAS illegal for a long time. Now it's only legal to murder your kids until they reach a certain age. If your kid is only X number of weeks old, it's your right to kill them. But once they reach Y, well, that's just not legal anymore.

Same result. Different age.

It's a good thing it's illegal to kill your teenagers. I doubt any of us would have survived.

I am racist b/c a lot of aborted children are minorities? Besides it was my black aunt who forwarded me that link asshole you don't even know me. Sorry about the pictures Swerb, I was just really irked. Ask any religious black person about how they feel about abortions affecting urban communities and most will respond the same way.

Wow. What a total bullshit post. You actually spent time typing that garbage, Spin?

Yeah let's kill people, so we don't have to pay for them. I see who I'm talking to now. So this fetus has NO chance of being a useful person, getting a job, inventing anything, discovering anything.

You dodged the question. Who is going to pay for and take care of unwanted children? You? No not you, once it's born it's the problem of someone else, or more likely the state. I'm not sure if you're aware of this, babies are expensive and there's 18 years of care before they become a productive adult. Some people can't and shouldn't raise kids, if you had your way they would be forced to, or they'd wind up property of the state, which is just such a great option.. I see who i'm talking to now, someone who only cares up to a certain point. Which makes you a hypocrite.

Next, let's slaughter anybody who's too old to work. What a freaking drain on the system. Those old shits cost us millions of dollars. Kill them all.

Never mind the fact that there are no freaking jobs anyhow. I would bet there are several people on here unemployed. Sorry, you're a drain on our money, you're dead too.

Still making shit up.

Of course the fact that we're discussing two MILLIONAIRES who weren't aborted just blew right over your fuckin head. LeBron is a real drain on society isn't he. Hell he got Gloria and probably at least a dozen more OFF the system rolls. Christ.

lol. "Two Millionaires". "Excuse me ma'am you shouldn't have an abortion, despite the fact you're not able or qualified to raise a baby because it might become the next LeBron James" Is that the logic you're going with?

You have zero right to tell a living human being they need to die for your convenience.

Wow you have being a dishonest putz down to a science. When did I ever tell a another human they need to die? It's an option. I'm not making the choice, just saying they should have the right to have the option should they need it. That's all. The right to choose.

Trying to skate right around that one.

If you don't understand the difference bewteen abortion and the murder of active member of society, there's not much I can do for you. Maybe if I explained it like you're a 5 year old?

municipalmutt wrote:Unless you own a vagina, it really doesn't matter what you think. If people like you gave a shit about kids half as much after they were born as you do when they are up inside somebody else, this world would be a much better place.

My only problem with this POV is that there are two people involved in creating the child. What if daddy is completely against aborting the baby?

Sorry Donny but until Daddy can incubate a kid we lack the the necessary hardware to be the one making that decision. Our decision comes down to condom or bareback. I know it sucks but that's the reality of it.

Most reasonable people can understand the difference between a sentient being and a lump of cells. I have always been against third trimester abortions but in the first three months were not dealing with those pictures that the wacky racist fundaMENTAList posted. Maybe we should abort future black QBs eh Kleagle?

No sperm.

No baby.

To dismiss daddy's rights is disingenuous and flat out inconsistent with reason.

I know we're speaking in hypothetical terms, but do you actually know any couple that the women aborted a baby against the father's will? Seems to me this would be pretty rare if it was a stable relationship. From my experience there were more times that the woman HAD the kid against the fathers' wishes.Back in my military days, there were barracks sluts that would shag anything with two legs just to get pregnant. The girl got out of the military on a medical discharge (which she wanted in the first place) and the poor schlub got his paycheck hacked permanently.

GameTimeAllTheTime wrote:Well there has to be a higher power than the parents. People shouldn't be able to have abortions because of the fear of being unable to raise a child. If thats the case then the parents should find an alternative means. Who is going to represent the human life being killed. Just because you can procreate doesn't mean people should have ownership of life. Really the argument comes down to whether or not you believe in a higher power. If you're an atheist then abortion isn't a big deal.

Pictures deleted from this post. Show a little tact. ~ Swerb

It's a pretty presumptuous position to claim to know what God wants. How do you know God is not in favor of abortion?Isn't this the same crazy ass shit that Jehovah witnesses do when talking about blood transfusions? Well it says in the bible not to drink sacrificial blood from animals, so that must mean not to give blood to somebody if they're dying.

As far as calling you a racist, it was because of your belief that a person is predisposed to fail at something because of their skin color. You posted that nonsense over on the football board about black quarterbacks and after reading your posts, you might not be a racist, but you sure have the makings of a good one.

You dodged the question. Who is going to pay for and take care of unwanted children? You? No not you, once it's born it's the problem of someone else, or more likely the state. I'm not sure if you're aware of this, babies are expensive and there's 18 years of care before they become a productive adult.

And where the fuck do you think the state gets it's money?

I'll help you out here. The same person who is paying for my wife's unemployment, my mom and dad's Medicare, and my grand daughter's WIC.

Anybody who's working.

Some people can't and shouldn't raise kids, if you had your way they would be forced to, or they'd wind up property of the state, which is just such a great option.. I see who i'm talking to now, someone who only cares up to a certain point. Which makes you a hypocrite.

Nobody is forced to raise a child. It's called ADOPTION, genius. There are millions of fine people who want to be parents, but they're on waiting lists. While babies go through infanticide for their mommy's "convenience". Usually it's all about her having the choice of not suffering the consequences of a previous bad choice.

Did you know you can drop off an unwanted newborn at any firehouse, police station, or hospital? No questions asked? Yeah these people are really saddled.

Which I never said.

It's the same thing. If you want to have an intelligent conversation, then don't try and skate around every point I bring up. That's all you're doing. You want to kill neonates because they could be COULD BE a drain on society. I get that. Well everyone else I mentioned is also a drain on society, do you want to kill them too?

Don't avoid the tough questions.

lol. "Two Millionaires". "Excuse me ma'am you shouldn't have an abortion, despite the fact you're not able or qualified to raise a baby because it might become the next LeBron James" Is that the logic you're going with?

Your logic is that every bad parent should euthanize their kids, that everybody who comes from a bad household is a drain on society, and that nobody who comes from textbook parents ever goes bad.

Besides, the thread is about TIM TEBOW, remember? He is going to be doing pretty well for himself in a few weeks, I seriously doubt he will ever need to cash a Welfare check.

Screw it, you probably still haven't figured out the irony of your wanderings.

You have zero right to tell a living human being they need to die for your convenience.

Wow you have being a dishonest putz down to a science. When did I ever tell a another human they need to die? It's an option. I'm not making the choice, just saying they should have the right to have the option should they need it. That's all. The right to choose.

Dishonest? WTF are you talking about? You are out there...

And it's not an option, nobody ever asked their neonate if they wanted to get ripped apart and sucked down a vacuum cleaner. I'm pretty sure if you asked most people, they would decide against that...

If you don't understand the difference bewteen abortion and the murder of active member of society, there's not much I can do for you. Maybe if I explained it like you're a 5 year old?

Between. It's spelled BETWEEN.

Oh, so now you're drawing the line at "active member of society". And if I reply with other examples of "inactive members of society", you're going to say "Which I never said." and resort to name calling. Nice skate job, BTW, you should be in Vancouver.

YOU cannot define the difference between "fetus" and "neonate" because nobody can. So you fall back on the legal system to make up your mind for you.

Yes abortion is legal. In China killing female babies is not only legal, it's expected. Just because something is legal, doesn't make it right.

municipalmutt wrote:Unless you own a vagina, it really doesn't matter what you think. If people like you gave a shit about kids half as much after they were born as you do when they are up inside somebody else, this world would be a much better place.

My only problem with this POV is that there are two people involved in creating the child. What if daddy is completely against aborting the baby?

Sorry Donny but until Daddy can incubate a kid we lack the the necessary hardware to be the one making that decision. Our decision comes down to condom or bareback. I know it sucks but that's the reality of it.

Most reasonable people can understand the difference between a sentient being and a lump of cells. I have always been against third trimester abortions but in the first three months were not dealing with those pictures that the wacky racist fundaMENTAList posted. Maybe we should abort future black QBs eh Kleagle?

No sperm.

No baby.

To dismiss daddy's rights is disingenuous and flat out inconsistent with reason.

I know we're speaking in hypothetical terms, but do you actually know any couple that the women aborted a baby against the father's will? Seems to me this would be pretty rare if it was a stable relationship. From my experience there were more times that the woman HAD the kid against the fathers' wishes.Back in my military days, there were barracks sluts that would shag anything with two legs just to get pregnant. The girl got out of the military on a medical discharge (which she wanted in the first place) and the poor schlub got his paycheck hacked permanently.

Agreed, it is an example of the extreme situation on the subject. IMO it is a scenario that does need to be addressed by the courts though, isn't that part of the job of the courts to cover all possible angles. I mean like I said above this whole thing is based on a bogus case to begin with.

I'm obviously against abortion. I am open to the alternative if there is a medical situation and open to hearing the arguments when rape is involved. IMO though when it comes to anything other than medical reasons it is hard to justify an abortion simply b/c of the country we live in and the alternatives to giving the child up for adoption to people who are willing to take on that responsibility of raising a child.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

exiledbuckeye wrote:If there are so many people who want to adopt children in this country, why are there hundreds of thousands of children stuck in foster care? Why are so many people adopting from other countries?

I think adoption is the best option, of course, but that system is clearly broken.

I am far from an expert on this, but i think most of those kids in foster care are not newborns. once a child is over a certain age they are not wanted by those who adopt. ideally those who adopt are looking for a newborn that they can take straight home from the hospital.

exiledbuckeye wrote:If there are so many people who want to adopt children in this country, why are there hundreds of thousands of children stuck in foster care? Why are so many people adopting from other countries?

I think adoption is the best option, of course, but that system is clearly broken.

I am far from an expert on this, but i think most of those kids in foster care are not newborns. once a child is over a certain age they are not wanted by those who adopt. ideally those who adopt are looking for a newborn that they can take straight home from the hospital.

Exactly. People are so up in arms about abortion, yet there's hundreds of thousands of kids in this country who are already alive and tossed out like unwanted trash, living in unspeakably horrible conditions. Imagine how much worse it would be if abortion were outlawed.

Last edited by exiledbuckeye on Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

exiledbuckeye wrote:If there are so many people who want to adopt children in this country, why are there hundreds of thousands of children stuck in foster care? Why are so many people adopting from other countries?