TomSpeed wrote:They didn't know each other in high school according to Angela. They only knew of each other. However, Graham seems to know an awful lot about Patty -- how many friends she had and the postponement of the prom for Patty's appendix operation.

I think that Graham knew who Patty was (mostly because she was popular and highly visible), but she probably didn't know who he was "Meanwhile, I couldn't get a girl to look at me"). If that is the case, he probably knows the story because everyone else knew the story. I mean, they plan the prom pretty far in advance so if the date was changed, the story about what caused it would circulate around school.

Since Patty, Graham, and Camille all went to the same high school and all still live near each other, I assume that they all grew up in Three Rivers and still there, so perhaps Patty and Graham ran into each other around town some time after graduation and things just progressed from there. That is actually pretty common - lots of people end up marrying someone they knew in high school or college. One girl I knew went to her 10 year reunion and some guy whose name she never knew in high school confessed that he had a crush on her way back when and they ended up getting together.

It's also possible that since Graham and Patty have been married for a long time, they have already told each other all their stories (TM When Harry Met Sally), including the Appendix Surgery story.

Natasha aka candygirl :: MSCL.com

Look, if this is weird for you, being tutored? I don't mind helping you a little longer. You could have sex with me if you really want to help...I guess that's a "no"?

starbug wrote:graham/angela I love the scene where she's in the towel and he can't deal with it.

I agree, it was a good scene, and I like your analysis. My favorite part is when she says "the truth is, my breasts have come between us", partly because she really doesn't have any and partly because it's clear she has more grasp of what's going on than Graham thinks she does, possibly more than he does, and she seems to be amused by it.

Technical aside: I thought the director shot it too close. We don't really feel what Graham does because we're more intimate than we should be. I also thought it looked a little too much like Graham meant to fumble all that stuff, like he was directed to. I'd have done another take.

(Similarly the cafeteria scene when Brian's tray is dumped. You clearly see the guy put his hand under it and push it into Brian, but he doesn't turn around to either take credit for harassing the nerd or be amused by the results, he just continues on. I don't see that happening in real life.)

starbug wrote: And I believe he says 'if I could tell her, I would'.

I can make sense of it as "...I would" or "...I wouldn't", but the latter is harder and a little murky, so I prefer the former also.

starbug wrote:Angela/Sharon - in the bathroom. 'It's not like one thing' sharon did. This, I think, is one of the best, most true, moments in this episode.

Relative to your analysis of the situation and emotions conveyed I agree, but I think it more likely that Angela would have said "You didn't do anything", since the priority in Sharon's question is more that she is at fault than exactly how that is true. Saying "it isn't any one thing" (with an elipsis of "... that you did") implies that Sharon is indeed responsible, by more than one doing of something, which is contrary to the priority of the two aspects of the question. (Somebody says they dropped a knife on their foot, you don't start with "do you need another knife".) What Angela said made Sharon feel more guilty, and even at age 15 she had to know that.

starbug wrote:Danielle - her manners have always irritated me. If I interrupted constantly while others were talking, I would have been punished. It just really winds me up that Patty and Graham don't do it. Great acting though...

During the original run of MSCL there were complaints that the adults were all cartoonish or monodimensional or something like that. (I never saw the first half of the series at the time, so I didn't pay that much attention.) This may be part of why. On the other hand, younger siblings trying to get the attention of the rents and being ignored or brushed aside is also a reality, particularly when the elder sibling is getting as much "attention" as Angela is at that particular moment.

After all this discussion, I feel as though I have "new eyes"... it may be necessary for me to watch the pilot again!

vampyr wrote:I also thought it looked a little too much like Graham meant to fumble all that stuff, like he was directed to. I'd have done another take.

Did anyone else notice that in this scene, Graham has his arms full of kids stuff (among other things, I think). One object that caught my attention in particular is a stuffed animal. And then it all starts falling out of his arms. Maybe this represents Graham holding onto the past and it's parting from him uncontrollably? And that leaves him uncomfortable and nervous. Perhaps I'm reading into this way too much, but that's just what I saw in this scene. Angela is not a little girl anymore, or at least not Daddy's little girl anymore.

Who is going to mistake Anne Frank for someone living? Although Angela did refer to AF in a such a way making it sound like she's a classmate. What does that mean? "I'm starting to like Anne Frank." Graham's reply to Angela's "she's dead, dad." is classic! "Oh, right." with that sorry-to-hear-that look on his face.

Um, in my room, one seam is a little off and I stare at it constantly. It's, like, destroying me.

TomSpeed wrote:They didn't know each other in high school according to Angela. They only knew of each other. However, Graham seems to know an awful lot about Patty -- how many friends she had and the postponement of the prom for Patty's appendix operation.

I think that Graham knew who Patty was (mostly because she was popular and highly visible), but she probably didn't know who he was "Meanwhile, I couldn't get a girl to look at me"). If that is the case, he probably knows the story because everyone else knew the story. I mean, they plan the prom pretty far in advance so if the date was changed, the story about what caused it would circulate around school.

Since Patty, Graham, and Camille all went to the same high school and all still live near each other, I assume that they all grew up in Three Rivers and still there, so perhaps Patty and Graham ran into each other around town some time after graduation and things just progressed from there. That is actually pretty common - lots of people end up marrying someone they knew in high school or college. One girl I knew went to her 10 year reunion and some guy whose name she never knew in high school confessed that he had a crush on her way back when and they ended up getting together.

It's also possible that since Graham and Patty have been married for a long time, they have already told each other all their stories (TM When Harry Met Sally), including the Appendix Surgery story.

I think that's a great theory. I also thought of them meeting at a reunion. We know they didn't meet at college, because Graham didn't attend college. Haven't children about Angela's age usually been told how their parents met/fell in love? I think that since they obviously fell in love after high school, there would have been a good background story for Winnie to explore. If we had more background, we wouldn't wonder so much why Graham loves Patty.

TomSpeed

Patty: If Rayanne's not seeing you, and we're not seeing you, who is seeing you?
Graham: And how much of you?
Angela: Dad!
Graham: Oh, I'm sorry! I asked a question about your life, didn't I? Woah, what came over me?http://www.last.fm/user/TomSpeed/

vampyr wrote:I also thought it looked a little too much like Graham meant to fumble all that stuff, like he was directed to. I'd have done another take.

Did anyone else notice that in this scene, Graham has his arms full of kids stuff (among other things, I think). One object that caught my attention in particular is a stuffed animal. And then it all starts falling out of his arms. Maybe this represents Graham holding onto the past and it's parting from him uncontrollably? And that leaves him uncomfortable and nervous. Perhaps I'm reading into this way too much, but that's just what I saw in this scene. Angela is not a little girl anymore, or at least not Daddy's little girl anymore.

Who is going to mistake Anne Frank for someone living? Although Angela did refer to AF in a such a way making it sound like she's a classmate. What does that mean? "I'm starting to like Anne Frank." Graham's reply to Angela's "she's dead, dad." is classic! "Oh, right." with that sorry-to-hear-that look on his face.

I think you hit the interpretation of this scene right on the head. He gathers a bunny rabbit and other things his children have strewn around the house, they fall from his grasp, he moves to catch them. His children, esp. Angela are escaping him. They have to grow up.

TomSpeed

Patty: If Rayanne's not seeing you, and we're not seeing you, who is seeing you?
Graham: And how much of you?
Angela: Dad!
Graham: Oh, I'm sorry! I asked a question about your life, didn't I? Woah, what came over me?http://www.last.fm/user/TomSpeed/

TomSpeed wrote:Haven't children about Angela's age usually been told how their parents met/fell in love?

I think some children have an unspoken "don't ask, don't tell" policy in regards to potentially nauseating (for the kids) and/or embarrassing (for the parents) parental stories; the parents don't tell, and the kids don't ask. Some phrases that children especially don't want to hear from their parents might include:

"Yup, I sure was wasted that night!"
"I was young and foolish, and I really needed the money!"
"...so after the operation there wasn't any reason not to pop the question."
"If you ever repeat this to anyone, I'll deny all knowledge of it!"
"You know how I told you that Darth Vader killed your father? Well..."

OK, so Patty and Graham's meeting probably wasn't that bad, but Angela's logic may have been along those lines.

I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure.
-- Clarence Darrow

I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it.
-- Mark Twain

vampyr wrote:
the priority in Sharon's question is more that she is at fault than exactly how that is true. Saying "it isn't any one thing" (with an elipsis of "... that you did") implies that Sharon is indeed responsible, by more than one doing of something, which is contrary to the priority of the two aspects of the question. (Somebody says they dropped a knife on their foot, you don't start with "do you need another knife".) What Angela said made Sharon feel more guilty, and even at age 15 she had to know that.

I completely see what you are saying here. I have thought about it and it's true that Sharon's angle is that she's at fault. Angela definitely lets her think that. But in Angela's defence, I would say that when you're growing up, and it's you that's changing, you don't see it. You project that change onto everyone else, believing yourself to be the static one. Maybe this is a little strong as I don't really believe that Angela doesn't realise she's undergoing some fairly major changes, but it's easier for her to 'blame' Sharon than it is for her to actually look inside herself and try to understand who she is becoming.

A newer thought:

'it hurts to look at you' - I really like the way this theme is opened up in this episode. Jordan closes his eyes, like it hurts to look at things. Patty says of Angela 'it's so hard to look at her, she looks like a stranger'... I think its a beautiful way of linking many relationships. Is it that the more you care about things, the harder it is to look and really see? I definitely get that sense from Angela's 'You're so beautiful, it hurts to look at you', and also Patty's related line.

Also, totally agree about Graham's fumbling of stuff on the stairs - he's desperately trying to hold on to how things were... that's a great perspective and something I hadn't considered before.

another word in angela's defence --
i think that yes, angela may be in denial of her changes, and too eager to blame sharon for the distance beteen them, but there's another side to that. angela tends to be a "follower" in her friendships, at least superficially. sharon was the one who TOLD angela who was cool, and what gossip she should know. sharon decided WHICH committees they should be on and whom they should consider cool. i believe rayanne played a similar role ?(which implies to me that both sharon and rayanne were phases that angela needed to go through -- sharon is the "preppy, good-girl" overbearing kind and rayanne is the hippie/druggie "bad-girl" version. of course neither one neatly fits that mold, proving that they are round characters instead of flat). when angela realizes that she wants to change, wants to grow, she discovers that sharon's slightly overbearing personality is holding her back. she does not know how to articulate that she still cares about sharon but needs some distance, and so she ends up trying to become someone of whom sharon can disapprove. it's angela's way; she's learned it from her father. and about angela worrying that she does not measure up in the way that patty did in high school -- this is not so different from comparing herself to sharon and deciding that she does not want to be a part of that mainstream world.

and then to continue on to patty and graham -
i always sort of assumed that graham and patty and camille and andy somehow all reconvened after high school and paired off. i am not sure that andy went to school with the other three, but i can definitely see camille orchestrating a meeting between graham and patty, say, around the time that patty was in or recently out of college and graham was working. we know that graham had some soul-searching years after high school because he was in denver at the dead concert (that someone named poptart also attended?). he probably matured quite a bit and became someone who patty could see herself marrying. i assume that, like other have written, graham knew who patty WAS in high school, and that she did not know him.

oh yeah, and about graham loving patty. i can totally see why. she is a capable woman who is decisive, smart, and beautiful. for all of graham's (sometimes timid and misdirected) creativity, patty provides structure and meaning. i got the impression that graham's mom was sort of your traditional homebody sweet unassuming woman (i.e. the opposite of vivian!). he probably was swept off of his feet by patty. plus, patty loved HIM, and thought he was a very attractive man and a good fathering-type. sounds like a done deal to me. i think that once they managed to sort out differences and appreciate each other's failings, they made a great couple.

likelife wrote:oh yeah, and about graham loving patty. i can totally see why. she is a capable woman who is decisive, smart, and beautiful. for all of graham's (sometimes timid and misdirected) creativity, patty provides structure and meaning. i got the impression that graham's mom was sort of your traditional homebody sweet unassuming woman (i.e. the opposite of vivian!). he probably was swept off of his feet by patty. plus, patty loved HIM, and thought he was a very attractive man and a good fathering-type. sounds like a done deal to me. i think that once they managed to sort out differences and appreciate each other's failings, they made a great couple.

I agree. Heck, I dated someone almost exactly like Patty. She was strong, opinionated, attractive, and all of the other good qualities that Patty has in the show. However, Jenny, had some of the same faults, too. Number one was that she did not appreciate her own beauty. Whenever I told her she was beautiful, she almost always looked at me as if I was lying. She could only see herself the way she wanted to see herself. Patty was a beautiful young woman/teenager according to the show, but she didn't appreciate or enjoy her beauty out of fear of appearing stuck up. My guess is this is very common for women and men. However, I still would have liked to have known more as a viewer about how Patty and Graham fell in love. It seems to me that Winnie, the writer, missed an opportunity to develop those characters more. Also, I think Patty and Graham would have been likely to discuss what happened with Angela to give an example to her or to help get information about Angela's life. Yes, a teenager's reaction might have been "yuck, I don't want to hear it" (like Angela's reaction to Patty's talking about sex), but Angela might have been genuinely curious, esp. since Patty and Graham's getting togther probably has a story to it.

TomSpeed

Patty: If Rayanne's not seeing you, and we're not seeing you, who is seeing you?
Graham: And how much of you?
Angela: Dad!
Graham: Oh, I'm sorry! I asked a question about your life, didn't I? Woah, what came over me?http://www.last.fm/user/TomSpeed/

likelife wrote:we know that graham had some soul-searching years after high school because he was in denver at the dead concert (that someone named poptart also attended?). he probably matured quite a bit and became someone who patty could see herself marrying. i assume that, like other have written, graham knew who patty WAS in high school, and that she did not know him.

Just to clarify a few details:

Amber lived in a bus with a girl named Pop Tart while she was following the Dead (before she had Rayanne). Amber got a bootleg of the Palo Alto '71 concert (where they closed with "Cosmic Charlie") from this guy Mike, in Boulder, Colorado.

Since all of these events took place in 1994, we can extrapolate that Patty and the gang were born in 1954, give or take a year, depending on what month each was born. That would make Graham 17 years old, again plus or minus a year, when he was at the Palo Alto concert in 1971 (I would like to add that I did a little research and it looks like there wasn't a Palo Alto concert that year - they played Berkeley and San Francisco in 1971, but I didn't see a Palo Alto concert - maybe Graham, not being a California native, assumed that Palo Alto is near SF? By the way, NONE of the aforementioned shows ended with "Cosmic Charlie").

TomSpeed wrote: Number one was that she did not appreciate her own beauty. Whenever I told her she was beautiful, she almost always looked at me as if I was lying. She could only see herself the way she wanted to see herself. Patty was a beautiful young woman/teenager according to the show, but she didn't appreciate or enjoy her beauty out of fear of appearing stuck up. My guess is this is very common for women and men.

I can't speak for men, but I think that part of the reason that many girls (especially younger girls, meaning under the age of 30) do not seem to appreciate their beauty is because they don't see it. You know how girls with eating disorders look in the mirror and see a fat person when in fact they weight 85 pounds? Similar psychological perception of beauty. We grow up reading Teen, Seventeen, Cosmo, etc with articles on fitness and diets, full of pictures of airbrushed models - is it any wonder that we believe we will never measure up to the ideals of perfection that we see in Victoria's Secret catalogs and beer ads? On top of that, we get this idea (which is further reinforced by Jordan pressuring 15 year old Angela to have sex) that the main motivation behind male behavior is sex so we suspect that every compliment or romantic gesture is a calculated step towards intercourse. I realize this makes me sound paranoid and suspicous (among other things), but I remember what it felt like before I became comfortable in my own skin. That awkward feeling of puberty stuck with me for a long time, but eventually I learned to see myself clearly and honestly and to be happy with my physical appearance, and more importantly to realize that if someone didn't like my appearance then they were such a shallow person that they weren't the kind of person I wanted in my life.

Sorry, I'll climb off my soap box now.

Anyway, I have had a Patty-esque moment when I looked at my youngest sister, who admittedly, is not perfect according to modeling industry standards (but who is?), and wished she could see how beautiful she is, hoping that when she looks in the mirror she sees all of her good qualities instead of focusing on what she perceives to be her flaws.

Natasha aka candygirl :: MSCL.com

Look, if this is weird for you, being tutored? I don't mind helping you a little longer. You could have sex with me if you really want to help...I guess that's a "no"?

Jordan being "left back, twice" means that he flunked grades, not that he was a soccer or football player. It also means that he was 17 to Angela's 15. At that age, that's quite a difference, and I would have been extremely intimidated by him. But I was also painfully shy in high school.

Graham and Patty. My husband and I are the opposite. We went to the same middle and high school, but he claims that he didn't know who I was, even though he was only a year ahead of me and our school only had, like, 800 students. I knew "of" him and his cool, jock friends. I was not the kind of girl that got noticed. (Can you imagine my embarrassment now, when we go home to PA and we run into one of the "popular kids" from HS, and my husband introduces me, and they have no idea I even went to school with them? )

Steve and I met when we went to college. And we have been together for so long (almost 7 years) that we know all of each other's stories from high school. So Graham knew of Patty, and probably had a crush on her, but she didn't know him. I like the theory mentioned earlier that Camille set them up after high school, and maybe even college. But I think it might have been right after high school, because they talk about being together for so long, and if Patty had Angela at 25, it would seem that they had to already have been married a little. But maybe not. My parents went to the same high school, as well, but didn't know each other. They met right after high school graduation, and have been together ever since.

I love the color of Angela's hair in thie episode. So vibrant and RED. Makes me want to dye my hair back to that color.

Rayanne's "house" always made me wonder. When the cop drops them off after Let's Bolt, it looks like a pretty big house, not an apartment building like we see in Other People's Mothers. I wonder if the writers were going to go in a different direction with Rayanne's character. Maybe make her into a rich girl who's dad and mom are never around, and she acts out to try and get their attention. Angela says, "At Rayanne's house, no one was home." I always had that impression, until we meet Amber in Guns and Gossip. But it could just be an apartment building that looked like a mansion... because we never see the outside of the apartment building in OPM, just the door to the apartment.

I love it when Angela returns to her room after Let's Bolt and sheds her clothes. I can't describe it, but I alwyas loved it.

I also love the way every one is circling Angela at the end of the episode, but the camera focuses on Angela.

What was Brian about to say to Angela after the cop dropped her off and he told her the theme of yearbook? He says, "Angela..." and his voice sounds strained, like he really wants to tell her something, but she cuts him off and won't let him.

Also, Brian knows that Angela likes Jordan, even though she never told him. So the writers make it obvious to the viewer that Brian has been paying attention and watching Angela.

I'm sorry I couldn't elaborate further on some of these, but my brain is still fuzzy this Saturday morning.

"I have all these dreams where I know exactly what to say. And you tell me, you know, that you forgive me."

Megs wrote:Rayanne's "house" always made me wonder. When the cop drops them off after Let's Bolt, it looks like a pretty big house, not an apartment building like we see in Other People's Mothers. I wonder if the writers were going to go in a different direction with Rayanne's character. Maybe make her into a rich girl who's dad and mom are never around, and she acts out to try and get their attention. Angela says, "At Rayanne's house, no one was home." I always had that impression, until we meet Amber in Guns and Gossip. But it could just be an apartment building that looked like a mansion... because we never see the outside of the apartment building in OPM, just the door to the apartment.

I always got the impression that Rayanne was bordering on white trash (pardon my un-PC stereotyping), so I assumed that the big steps we saw her walking up led to the front entrance/lobby of her apartment building (and as many people who have lived in apartment buildings know, the nice lobby or courtyard can be quite deceiving - much nicer than the actual apartments inside). If I recall correctly, when we see Angela entering Rayanne's apartment in OPC the door to the apartment is outside? I chalked that up to inconsistency due to ideas that developed after the pilot (like the thing with Jordan riding in the back seat of Red in the pilot).

I love it when Angela returns to her room after Let's Bolt and sheds her clothes. I can't describe it, but I alwyas loved it.

I always liked that too - she reminds me of a snake shedding its skin, wiggling out of that outer layer to reveal the newer, softer, more vulnerable skin within.

Natasha aka candygirl :: MSCL.com

Look, if this is weird for you, being tutored? I don't mind helping you a little longer. You could have sex with me if you really want to help...I guess that's a "no"?

Megs wrote:What was Brian about to say to Angela after the cop dropped her off and he told her the theme of yearbook? He says, "Angela..." and his voice sounds strained, like he really wants to tell her something, but she cuts him off and won't let him.

Sorry that I didn't provide this link at the beginning of this discussion post, but there were some theories about in this thread: