Hi Everyone :ws: for the last 2 days, I have been trying to find out why the Hot water pipes in my bathroom are making a Loud noise, the noise sounds loudest in the bathrooms ???? I can turn off the water valve at the hot water heater, and the noise goes away ???? Ok, I thought i might have a pin hole leak in the Hot water pipe :eek: but the noise comes and goes ???? so before i go ripping into the walls and attic to replace the hot water lines, I thought I might Check a few things first, also the pressure relief valve on the water heater sometimes leaks a little. Hint, When i bought this house 5 years ago, the main water pressure relief valve was stuck, i could not adjust it, so i thought, lets just leave well enough alone :D also there was no shut off valve for the water sprinklers, they just taped into the 1" main water line, Ok, So I thought, maybe the Main Pressure relief valve is stuck, and the water pressure is to high, causing the water heater pressure relief valve to leak a little causing some Harmonic Noise in the water pipe, Thats what I was hoping for because i did not want to replace the houses Hot water pipes ;) I knew the main pressure valve adjusting bolt was stuck, so I replaced it and installed some plastic ball shut off valves for the main water line and one for the sprinklers, got it all in and guess what, I had a Drip leak, took it apart and resealed the leaking fitting, then it leaks some where else :oops: I hate plumbing :Q 3rd times a Charm, no more leaks, then i replaced the Hot water Heater pressure relief valve, I replaced the hot water heater about 2 years ago with a new Pressure Relif Valve, I could not believe it, the pipe coming out of the hot water heater PRV was full of corrosion and rust, the steel pipe was eaten up, maybe electrolysis had something to do with it, because the PRV is brass and the short pipe out of the PRV was galvanized steel then to a flex copper pipe going outside the house, maybe, the PRV was all corroded inside and seeping from time to time causing the Hot Water pipes to make all kinds of funny Loud Noises :eek: I used a Plastic pipe after the PRV this time :roll: I finished up the job about4 hours ago, and my legs are killing Me, The Valves are in a Valt in the ground about 2 1/2 feet down, I am getting to old for this Sheet :D LOL, I Had My oldest son help me, Its fixed now, no more Funny Loud noises in the walls and pipes, I am a Happy Camper that I did not have to tear up walls to replace piping, out here in Calif, they also run the pipes under the concrete slab :eek: glad i did not have to break up the slab to repair any leaking pipes ;-) Ok, Time to Play with my Model Airplanes Again :Q :Q :Q LOL Take care, Chellie

Btw, I Think I saved myself about $500.00 + In Labor Replacing the Main water pressure valve and installing 2 shut off valves and a hot water heater PRV, Parts cost me about $150.00, Plumbers in the area wanted $275.00 Just for labor just to replace my Hot water heater 2 years ago. I did it myself :D I told you I was cheap :red: :D

solentlife

03-21-2014 11:23 AM

It always amazes me that shut-off vakves are not placed more in systems splitting them up.

When I started reconstruction of my present place - I followed same as I did in previous. Shut off valves at each item of the system. So I could replace a tap, pipe, connector etc. without whole house needing shut-down. The plumber who works on my present place - he agreed with my reasoning - but STILL I found work where they hadn't fitted valves.

To me it's same as breakers on electrics - I have a breaker for EACH ring .. means I can isolate lights or sockets in each room alone without rest of house blacking out.

I also don't agree with burying under concrete etc. unless there is a conduit pipe to allow replacement of pipe or cable that passes through it ...

Good on yer babe ... my wife can't even change a light bulb or plug !!

Nigel

CHELLIE

03-21-2014 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by solentlife
(Post 943193)

It always amazes me that shut-off vakves are not placed more in systems splitting them up.

When I started reconstruction of my present place - I followed same as I did in previous. Shut off valves at each item of the system. So I could replace a tap, pipe, connector etc. without whole house needing shut-down. The plumber who works on my present place - he agreed with my reasoning - but STILL I found work where they hadn't fitted valves.

To me it's same as breakers on electrics - I have a breaker for EACH ring .. means I can isolate lights or sockets in each room alone without rest of house blacking out.

I also don't agree with burying under concrete etc. unless there is a conduit pipe to allow replacement of pipe or cable that passes through it ...

Good on yer babe ... my wife can't even change a light bulb or plug !!

Nigel

I Agree with you Nigel, if pipes are under a house they should in a conduit to where you can get to them to replace them if needed :ws: and have Access panels on the side of the house.

very few women are mechanically inclined, maybe about 1% they work on cars, trucks and jets and are techs :ws:, but like i said very few women. they are Geeks and Nerds Like Me :D LOL Take care, Chellie

fhhuber

03-21-2014 05:29 PM

Most likely some valve is not fully opened or has become partially clogged with lime scale deposits. Any flow restriction can cause a vibration of the pipe and thus noize.

pizzano

03-21-2014 05:30 PM

Chellie.......Glad you found the problem.......given the trial and error method and time it takes........you did great and saved a chunk of change...;)

As you discovered, the "noise" was generated by air (pressure changes and pockets) in the lines...due to the various leaks (drawing air into the lines) and tempature fluctuations caused by the environment and transfer of heated water to the various locations in your system (bath rooms are notorious first alerts due to the "tract" home piping design and number of bends required to plumb).

Your engineering background helped I'm sure.....the "rattle & moan" you experienced caused by the vacuum (space in the pipe between hydraulic flow of the water and pipe wall) got worse over time due to the constant difference in pressure left in the lines (particularly at the various valves and fittings) obviously causing those crummy valve fittings to leak.

The oxidation (corrosion mineral build-up) you mention could be from the electro-static discharge caused by the hydraulic friction and tempature changes generated by the water heater and the water chemistry......Is your system grounded...?.....many newer water heaters have a "ground wire" leaving the thermostat tempature regulator assembly......should be connected to a ground rod someplace outside of the structure......or it could be a case of "hard" water (heavy mineral content)......

Your'e so right about the plumbing being encased in the concrete floors here in the south-west where houses do not need to "lifted" off the ground.......You notice we don't have basements in tract house or air space under our floors........everything is laid into the foundations with total disregard for future maintainence or failures due to poor installation.....a very costly fix when "shet" happens. If you every seen how the so called "plumbers" install this stuff in a tract home assembly.....you'd cringe at the thought of purchasing.......half of the guys don't know the difference btw a 45* elbow and a coupling.......and homes built on Mondays (after a hard weekend of beer consumption and who's knows what) are the worst to inspect......this from experience inspecting them......:D

CHELLIE

03-21-2014 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fhhuber
(Post 943206)

Most likely some valve is not fully opened or has become partially clogged with lime scale deposits. Any flow restriction can cause a vibration of the pipe and thus noize.

Yes, you are so right :ws: and it can really drive you nuts trying to find the problem, I am just glad that it was a Easy Quick fix, rather than having to replace all the pipes :eek: Take care and have fun, Chellie

Quote:

Originally Posted by pizzano
(Post 943207)

Chellie.......Glad you found the problem.......given the trial and error method and time it takes........you did great and saved a chunk of change...;)

As you discovered, the "noise" was generated by air (pressure changes and pockets) in the lines...due to the various leaks (drawing air into the lines) and tempature fluctuations caused by the environment and transfer of heated water to the various locations in your system (bath rooms are notorious first alerts due to the "tract" home piping design and number of bends required to plumb).

Your engineering background helped I'm sure.....the "rattle & moan" you experienced caused by the vacuum (space in the pipe between hydraulic flow of the water and pipe wall) got worse over time due to the constant difference in pressure left in the lines (particularly at the various valves and fittings) obviously causing those crummy valve fittings to leak.

The oxidation (corrosion mineral build-up) you mention could be from the electro-static discharge caused by the hydraulic friction and tempature changes generated by the water heater and the water chemistry......Is your system grounded...?.....many newer water heaters have a "ground wire" leaving the thermostat tempature regulator assembly......should be connected to a ground rod someplace outside of the structure......or it could be a case of "hard" water (heavy mineral content)......

Your'e so right about the plumbing being encased in the concrete floors here in the south-west where houses do not need to "lifted" off the ground.......You notice we don't have basements in tract house or air space under our floors........everything is laid into the foundations with total disregard for future maintainence or failures due to poor installation.....a very costly fix when "shet" happens. If you every seen how the so called "plumbers" install this stuff in a tract home assembly.....you'd cringe at the thought of purchasing.......half of the guys don't know the difference btw a 45* elbow and a coupling.......and homes built on Mondays (after a hard weekend of beer consumption and who's knows what) are the worst to inspect......this from experience inspecting them......:D

I Learned a lot about Plumbing, Electrical and general repairs from my Father, he is a retired Truck Driver and a Handyman, around the house when i was living at home, he would do home repairs and to earn extra money, he would do home repairs for people, I went out to jobs with him alot and helped him, and thats where i learned to do a lot of things, I learned so much from him, That I became an Industrial Operating Engineer and Fleet Tech, in High School, I graduated top Industrial Arts Student, and was Awarded a Tool Chest with Tools, that was in Electronics, Drafting, Metal Shop and Automotive Shop, I Owe a lot of what I know to my Father that Taught me well :$ He also got me Started in Model Aviation, with a Cox PT-19 and a P-40 CL,
Know what ???? I still have my Father around :$ he is around 87 years old and He is still Sharp :ws: and Active, Take care, Chellie

pizzano

03-21-2014 11:13 PM

Chellie.....I can appreciate the "taught by Dad" education......I too had a pop's that was pretty handy with household issues.....he left the automotive and irrigation (farm) stuff to up to me though.....he lacked patience and worked alot of hours trying to make ends meet.....at least he pushed me to get experience and further my "academic" understanding of the more technical stuff.........I miss him a bunch.....but everytime I climb under a hood, open a text book, or design something technical.....he's their with me in spirit. reminding to stay patient and persistant....:)

kyleservicetech

03-21-2014 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHELLIE
(Post 943192)

, I replaced the hot water heater about 2 years ago with a new Pressure Relif Valve, I could not believe it, the pipe coming out of the hot water heater PRV was full of corrosion and rust, the steel pipe was eaten up, maybe electrolysis had something to do with it, because the PRV is brass and the short pipe out of the PRV was galvanized steel then to a flex copper pipe going outside the house, maybe, the PRV was all corroded inside and seeping from time to time causing the Hot Water pipes to make all kinds of funny Loud Noises

Hi Chellie!

Uh oh.

Based on my VERY limited knowledge of plumbing, that is a big No-No. Dissimilar metals can not be directly joined together in any plumbing. That creates a galvanic action, where the two dissimilar metals become a sort of battery. The resulting current flow inside the pipe will eat one of them up in a few years. Especially when those pipes are always hot, like near a hot water heater. (Yeah, I found out about this phenomenon several decades ago when I did it myself!)

In fact, it is even a bad idea to use galvanized metal clips to support copper water pipes in your basement. They have special copper plated clips for copper pipe. Or, now they've probably got plastic coated clips.

I had to replace galvanized water pipes in my old house several years ago, and went to copper pipe. Could not get to all of the old galvanized stuff, so there was a mix of both of them.

Your local well stocked hardware store has "Galvanic Fittings" that are designed to connect galvanized pipe to copper pipe. Those special fittings provide a non-metallic barrier between those two types of pipe, eliminating the problem.

CHELLIE

03-22-2014 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kyleservicetech
(Post 943237)

Hi Chellie!

Uh oh.

Based on my VERY limited knowledge of plumbing, that is a big No-No. Dissimilar metals can not be directly joined together in any plumbing. That creates a galvanic action, where the two dissimilar metals become a sort of battery. The resulting current flow inside the pipe will eat one of them up in a few years. Especially when those pipes are always hot, like near a hot water heater. (Yeah, I found out about this phenomenon several decades ago when I did it myself!)

In fact, it is even a bad idea to use galvanized metal clips to support copper water pipes in your basement. They have special copper plated clips for copper pipe. Or, now they've probably got plastic coated clips.

I had to replace galvanized water pipes in my old house several years ago, and went to copper pipe. Could not get to all of the old galvanized stuff, so there was a mix of both of them.

Your local well stocked hardware store has "Galvanic Fittings" that are designed to connect galvanized pipe to copper pipe. Those special fittings provide a non-metallic barrier between those two types of pipe, eliminating the problem.

Yes you are Sooo right Denny, I was not thinking about that when i put the steel pipe in there.

dahawk

03-22-2014 12:53 AM

Hi Chellie,

Do you have a code out there? I think there's a reason copper and pvc are used.

Once owned an old house in the Midwest where I swear there was every material used for pipe except wood.

pizzano

03-22-2014 01:27 AM

For California:....the short version...!

In all public juristrictions, the California Building Code (which references the Uniform Building Code & National Plumbing Code - HCD1 - for residential units supported by public and private domestic water (for human consumption, not just potable)........All piping from the main to the meter....meter to the structure, throughout the structure, must be copper....any copper to steel contact must be sperated by brass or dielectric fittings........this includes any piping to and from the water heater, filters, pumps and regulators.......Plastic (ABS/PVC) domestic water piping is not permited in class HCD1 units........the short answer to a pretty complicated set of rules.

Hope this helps.

Edit:

Of course, this requirement is based on units built with "permits" which require inspection and approval........for those who own a unit that care to make their own repairs.....one takes a risk not following the regulated requirements, could be subject to structure damage, health issue and law suits in the event of a home made repair failure........In the event the unit it sold or changes ownership, and a government loan is processed to fund or insured by HUD......an inspection of the unit is performed before the loan can close.....if the plumbing is not CODE.....no sale, no loan....and possible legal action could arrive from the Health & Safety Code violations, if reported by the inspecting agency!

kyleservicetech

03-22-2014 01:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pizzano
(Post 943243)

.Plastic (ABS/PVC) domestic water piping is not permited in class HCD1 units........the short answer to a pretty complicated set of rules.

Hope this helps.

!

I still like copper pipe, but our local hardware store has a whole lot of this Pex stuff. Seems to me, over the long long haul, copper will win out over Pex.

California State regulators have just approved PEX for installation "within" the residential structures.......all external remains copper/brass....to include from the water heater to the first "outlet" within the structure......Even though the State has adopted it, many local agencies have the right to enforce their own rules. That's why most still call for copper/brass expect where connected to dishwashers/hoses, indoor spa's, seperate showering facilities not in line with units main water supply and various other facilities not directly related to the "consumption" source.

There have been a number of legal challenges thru out the State due to failures related to freezing, pressure, contamination......thus most local agencies continue to prefer copper/brass.....IMHO and experince, copper/brass is and will continue to be the safest and most reliable/functional long term application......;)

kyleservicetech

03-22-2014 02:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pizzano
(Post 943252)

California State regulators have just approved PEX for installation "within" the residential structures.......all external remains copper/brass....to include from the water heater to the first "outlet" within the structure......Even though the State has adopted it, many local agencies have the right to enforce their own rules. That's why most still call for copper/brass expect where connected to dishwashers/hoses, indoor spa's, seperate showering facilities not in line with units main water supply and various other facilities not directly related to the "consumption" source.

There have been a number of legal challenges thru out the State due to failures related to freezing, pressure, contamination......thus most local agencies continue to prefer copper/brass.....IMHO and experince, copper/brass is and will continue to be the safest and most reliable/functional long term application......;)

Thanks for the info, it's appreciated.

As for me, I just can't see putting a crimped connection inside a wall. It's bad enough that our dishwasher is designed to be connected to the water main with a washing machine type hose.

Before retiring at work, we had outdoor connectors that used a big neoprene tube type ring that sealed the aluminum connector around the one inch diameter cable that entered it. Those things were just about the best available. But, when those cables went into a top entrance control cabinet, out in the weather over a period of years, they always got water inside them. The problem was water sat on top of those grommets on top entrance cables. And with heating and cooling with the weather, that water would be sucked into the connector, little bit by little bit.

We eventually went to a big piece of shrink tubing that had a heat activated sealant inside. It took a a pair of 1500 watt heat guns about 5 minutes to shrink that stuff down. That sealant ooozed all over the place when it was done. But, they never leaked. Now, they've got totally encapsulated connectors.

So, after personal experience with connectors that cost $75 each that still leaked, I'll never put plastic crimped water pipes in my house that are exposed to water pressure. :eek:

solentlife

03-22-2014 03:35 AM

My house is still on-going reconstruction.

7 years ago - first stage of water system fitted, to pipe the natural well water in for heating and domestic consumption. The ground piping - over 40cms buried to avoid freezing winters is thick wall plastic piping same grade as used by water companies to supply residential areas (just a lot smaller diameter).
This goes to my constant pressure water pump in the cellar. From that via filters into the copper alloy house system.
One month ago - we added phase 2 to the system, and guys used different piping - straight non-corrosive alloy for 90% of the work and same grade plastic as the ground supply piping. The plastic was used to extend vertically into second floor and alloy for running round to supply each item.
The plastic uses a heat-ring tool to create joints ... expanding the end collar to allow a cut end to insert. Remove tool and it shrinks so tight - its g'teed water-tight.

I was concerned about different metals action - but assured that there is no problem here.

Some years ago when I lived in UK - we had a bad winter where the water pipes froze in my house ... the ones running inside roof etc. The only pipes that survived it were the plastic ones - the metal split.

Given that many countries now use plastic based main supply lines for water distribution in cities / towns - I think that speaks enough ?

Nigel

pizzano

03-22-2014 04:00 AM

Plastic lined piping (internal lining) for municipal water mains in this state and 80% of the others is only seen in the use of "distribution" potable irrigation and reservoir to reservoir connections....not in transmission, where DIP (Ductile Iron Pipe Flanged) is still the pipe of choice (at some expense)......due to it's life span, ease of installation (more secure joint fitting and less appt to seperate (split, crack, dislodge) when the ground moves (which it does quite often here in Calif.), dead load tinsel strength, load capacity (external and internal pressure), ability to withstand tempature extremes, and it's ability to withstand the chemical treatment most agencies in this country require for water consumption (unlike various other countries) that do not treat their water any where near the levels we do here in the U.S........

Thus, lined material does not have the life span due to the long term chemical use and has been tested over long periods of time to erode, causing various interuptions in the distribution......trust me, water line (pipe) material properties here in the U.S. have been tested to death....and everyone knows we have a thing for environmental, personal safety, cost and quality when it comes to what we "yanks" consume and splash on our bodies.......:D

solentlife

03-22-2014 04:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pizzano
(Post 943263)

........Thus, lined material does not have the life span due to the long term chemical use and has been tested over long periods of time to erode, causing various interuptions in the distribution......trust me, water line (pipe) material properties here in the U.S. have been tested to death....and everyone knows we have a thing for environmental, personal safety, cost and quality when it comes to what we "yanks" consume and splash on our bodies.......:D

For many decades ... Arctic conditions have dictated straight iron piping in areas I live .. North Russia and Baltics .. with replacement at intervals. Those days are over and man-made synthetics and polymers are taking over - with greater service life, greater reliability and cheaper cost.

As to USA and Environment ? I will not bore you and others with the endless studies and reports of USA failure to agree on environmental limits. Second that I often have to work alongside companies that have been found in past to have falsified reports supplied to and used by EPA.

We shall not dwell on Fracking ... or Hydro-blasting ... or other ground invading work carried out in many of US States incl. Calif.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: ;););)

Grab a Bud and relax ... ;)

Nigel

pizzano

03-22-2014 05:13 AM

I hear ya Nigel......but,

"we have a thing for environmental, personal safety, cost and quality when it comes to what we "yanks" consume and splash on ourbodies".......:D

"USA failure to agree on environmental limits"....."We shall not dwell on Fracking ... or Hydro-blasting ... or other ground invading work carried out in many of US States incl. Calif."........

is really not related to the subject on hand...... don't disagree with your assessment, but the comment has taken a 180 related to water line pipe requirements and materials.........

I'll have a Newcastle Pale Ale, don't care for American beers, something about the water quality I'm sure.....;-)

solentlife

03-22-2014 05:20 AM

Ground water has been subject of many problems in many states of USA .. a subject often suppressed by those who are 'involved' in the processes that create the problems.
Even bore-hole water has been affected in areas ...

So it is actually related to the comment of 'we "yanks" consume and splash on our bodies..... '

The matter of piping is a direct related to OP based on what has happened over my side of the pond ... Europe has moved more to the polymer and man-made than the traditional metal over years ... for good reason. I was commenting more for that.

Personally I am a Guinness or Real Ale person ... chemical beer / lager has no place on my table. Newkie Brown is not so bad ... Bottled only.

Nigel

CHELLIE

03-22-2014 05:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by solentlife
(Post 943275)

Ground water has been subject of many problems in many states of USA .. a subject often suppressed by those who are 'involved' in the processes that create the problems.
Even bore-hole water has been affected in areas ...

So it is actually related to the comment of 'we "yanks" consume and splash on our bodies..... '

The matter of piping is a direct related to OP based on what has happened over my side of the pond ... Europe has moved more to the polymer and man-made than the traditional metal over years ... for good reason. I was commenting more for that.

Personally I am a Guinness or Real Ale person ... chemical beer / lager has no place on my table. Newkie Brown is not so bad ... Bottled only.

Nigel

I worked for a City, and I could not belive all of the Lead Pipe that they were still removing from the ground :eek: that lead pipe worked great for casting bullets when some hard wheel weights were added to it :D

CHELLIE

03-22-2014 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by solentlife
(Post 943275)

Ground water has been subject of many problems in many states of USA .. a subject often suppressed by those who are 'involved' in the processes that create the problems.
Even bore-hole water has been affected in areas ...

So it is actually related to the comment of 'we "yanks" consume and splash on our bodies..... '

The matter of piping is a direct related to OP based on what has happened over my side of the pond ... Europe has moved more to the polymer and man-made than the traditional metal over years ... for good reason. I was commenting more for that.

Personally I am a Guinness or Real Ale person ... chemical beer / lager has no place on my table. Newkie Brown is not so bad ... Bottled only.

Nigel

I bet you would like Miller Lite Beer Nigel, because it Taste great and is Less Filling :D

I worked for a City, and I could not belive all of the Lead Pipe that they were still removing from the ground :eek: that lead pipe worked great for casting bullets when some hard wheel weights were added to it :D

My first house had lead piping all way through it ... it's where I learnt to 'wrap' a joint from lead pipe to copper ...

Now here's a tip ... if you have a pipe that has a leaking joint - drip drip drip ... you know the sort. No matter what you do - it just will not stop.
I had one and I lost my temper with it and decided - OK if that's what it wants - then so be it ... I wrapped it in layers of Solarfilm ... then gave it the ' gun' .... heat shrunk the film over it !
Believe me - it stopped the leak. I admit it was a last desperate measure but only as a temporary as the bathroom was on project to be restyled and re-piped.
Plumber laughed when he saw it - but admitted - it worked !

Nigel

CHELLIE

03-22-2014 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by solentlife
(Post 943282)

My first house had lead piping all way through it ... it's where I learnt to 'wrap' a joint from lead pipe to copper ...

Now here's a tip ... if you have a pipe that has a leaking joint - drip drip drip ... you know the sort. No matter what you do - it just will not stop.
I had one and I lost my temper with it and decided - OK if that's what it wants - then so be it ... I wrapped it in layers of Solarfilm ... then gave it the ' gun' .... heat shrunk the film over it !
Believe me - it stopped the leak. I admit it was a last desperate measure but only as a temporary as the bathroom was on project to be restyled and re-piped.
Plumber laughed when he saw it - but admitted - it worked !

Nigel

Thats funny :D but if it worked, thats all that matters :Q I had one fitting that would not stop dripping, new fittings male and female, no cracks in the pipe or fitting , I wrapped that fitting with about 6 wraps of Teflon tape, but it still would drip, ok I took it apart again, wrapped it again with at least 6 wraps of Teflon tape and used a Teflon pipe joint compound with the tape and that finally fixed the leak, only 1 other time did i need to use teflon tape and joint sealant compound and that was on a 2000 psi hydrolic 90 degree fitting that would not stop dripping.