Sorry, posting at the same time. Don't have time to edit, so sorry if I'm repeating you amethyst and hofj.

Knives wrote:Edward is essentially selfish. Yes, he protects Bella from harm, but everything that they do as a couple is on his terms. He dictated where they'd live after they got married, when Bella got turned, by whom she got turned. He controlled every kiss and every intimate encounter - he even attempts to dictate whom she can and cannot see! Do these sound like the actions of a selfless being? I don't believe they do.

I respect your opinion, but my view is somewhat different, Knives. All your exampes can be interpreted differently in my opinion. Edward didn't dictate where they would live after they got married. He wanted her to go to college as a human experience. For her... And so he bought a house nearby Dartmouth just in case she decided to go. He would never force her. And he would go live in Antarctica with her. And when things took a different turn..His family gave them a house. Again..No one is forcing Bella to live anywhere.She could say that she wanted to live in a tent, and Edward would comply.

He didn't control who she was turned by. He accepted that she would have Carlisle to it. Edward simply put in some conditions if he was to be the one, because he wanted to stall the process. And he had every right to do that. He shouldn't be forced to do anything he didn't feel comfortable with. He didn't want her to be a vampire, because he didn't want her life to be like his. A selfless act.

He controlled the kisses and intimate encounters for safety reasons. We cannot take the fact that Edward is a vampire out of the equation. He had cravings for her blood. It took all of his selfcontrol to resist. So of course he had to be in control of kissing her. Bella obviously couldn't control herself while kissing him, so that forced him to always be the one to end the kiss. And Bella couldn't see the dangers involved in them making love. So Edward was forced to be the one to resist. Again, these are all selfless acts where Edward is concerned with nothing more than Bella's safety.He did try to stop her from seeing Jacob. But that was also for safety reasons. Not for himself. The pack was his one enemy, of course he wouldn't want his girl to hang around with someone he saw as dangerous. That does not make him selfish in my opinion. So my opinion still stands. I see Edward as essentially selfless.

holdingoutforjacob wrote:I was thinking about Edward's selflessness and I had a thought.

It seems to me that Edward's selflessness is, in a way, a vehicle with which he combats his nature, which he believes is a monster.

Think about it - vampires kill innocent human beings to satisfy their own thirst. Does it get more selfish?

I think Edward sees being selfless to a fault as being the way to counteract his vampirehood.

Now, I'm not saying it's an act AT ALL If he weren't a fundamentally selfless person, he wouldn't feel the need to override his selfish instincts. But to be selfless to the extent that amethyst describes, to the point where not only does it hurt him but it begins to hurt other people, is not a form of selflessness that occurs naturally. .

That's an interesting thought, HOFJ. I do think he was trying to make up for the inherent monster in him, by being the best person he could be. And finding Bella allowed him to give all his care and love to someone. But I see the performance of these selfless acts as highly unconscious. In his own view, he was selfish. So if he was in a way trying to counteract the monster in him, I don't think it was something that he was aware of. I see this selflessness as something so deeply rooted in his personality.

holdingoutforjacob wrote:Think about it - vampires kill innocent human beings to satisfy their own thirst. Does it get more selfish?

I would assume it is very difficult to step away from a human’s perspective, but there’s absolutely nothing wrong or selfish about a vampire quenching their thirst. I realize you’re a vegetarian (I believe you mentioned it once, before) so that might be why you feel this way. But it is very surprising when I read something like this.

holdingoutforjacob wrote:Now, I'm not saying it's an act AT ALL If he weren't a fundamentally selfless person, he wouldn't feel the need to override his selfish instincts. But to be selfless to the extent that amethyst describes, to the point where not only does it hurt him but it begins to hurt other people, is not a form of selflessness that occurs naturally.

That wasn’t what I was saying. In no way, do I think his selflessness hurts others rather that it hurts him because he always puts others and especially Bella’s needs and wants and thoughts and feelings into consideration before anyone else’s. He says that Bella is his first priority, and he lives up to what he said. However, I find nothing unrealistic about his being so selfless. In my very short life, I have met people who I consider amazingly selfless to a point that I am completely astounded and amazed. So no, his selflessness is not unrealistic, in my opinion, but it is foddered to the extent in which it is because he loves this one person so unconditionally and irrationally. It comes as no surprise when he drives me insane when he does something so amazingly, frustratingly selfless. I am sure, I would be exactly like him if I had someone that special in my life...

Dovrebanen wrote: I could have slapped him just to get him to realize what he was doing.

I really don't suggest that... I thought about it too, but then I realized we'd both break our hands if we tried!

holdingoutforjacob wrote:Bella's safety and protection were, of course, Edward's main focus. But his need to keep her entire life completely risk free at the expense of her free will - that was selfish. It scared him, he didn't like being scared, and he eliminated the thing that was scaring him.

I definitely do see his point on this one example in particular, and it is completely legitimate to consider it selfish because it is a matter of interpretation. I just interpret it in a very different way, that is all there is to it.

"I never would have banished him from her society as long as she desired his. . . . . But, till then--if you don't believe me, you don't know me--till then, I would have died by inches before I touched a single hair of his head!"

Knives wrote:Edward is essentially selfish. Yes, he protects Bella from harm, but everything that they do as a couple is on his terms. He dictated where they'd live after they got married, when Bella got turned, by whom she got turned. He controlled every kiss and every intimate encounter - he even attempts to dictate whom she can and cannot see! Do these sound like the actions of a selfless being? I don't believe they do.

Yes Edward did control the kiss and Every intimate encounter, Did he want to, Did Bella want to ? No on both, but Edward would never do something in pure pleasure and could klil someone he loved more than any thing so I guess if you call that being seflish then you are correct. But lets say Edward had HIV and was waiting to the test results. and Bella comes on hot and heavy, it would be selfish and dangerous for them to be together. Just like it was when you say the Edward was controlling the intimacy . How can you possibly dictate when it could come down to life or death. It was only after Bella pleading with Edward that he agreed to talk to Carlise and his brothers. and he also said if it didn't work that they would have to wait. that is the talk of a responsable person who loves his partner. not a selfish person Knives. Can you see what I am saying?

holdingoutforjacob wrote:Think about it - vampires kill innocent human beings to satisfy their own thirst. Does it get more selfish?

I would assume it is very difficult to step away from a human’s perspective, but there’s absolutely nothing wrong or selfish about a vampire quenching their thirst. I realize you’re a vegetarian (I believe you mentioned it once, before) so that might be why you feel this way. But it is very surprising when I read something like this.

Wow you have a good memory! First of all, I am a vegetarian but not on any sort of moral or ethical grounds. I just think it's gross to eat a dead animal! Second of all, I am saying that's how I think Edward sees it.

amethyst wrote:

holdingoutforjacob wrote:Now, I'm not saying it's an act AT ALL If he weren't a fundamentally selfless person, he wouldn't feel the need to override his selfish instincts. But to be selfless to the extent that amethyst describes, to the point where not only does it hurt him but it begins to hurt other people, is not a form of selflessness that occurs naturally.

That wasn’t what I was saying. In no way, do I think his selflessness hurts others rather that it hurts him because he always puts others and especially Bella’s needs and wants and thoughts and feelings into consideration before anyone else’s. He says that Bella is his first priority, and he lives up to what he said. However, I find nothing unrealistic about his being so selfless. In my very short life, I have met people who I consider amazingly selfless to a point that I am completely astounded and amazed. So no, his selflessness is not unrealistic, in my opinion, but it is foddered to the extent in which it is because he loves this one person so unconditionally and irrationally. It comes as no surprise when he drives me insane when he does something so amazingly, frustratingly selfless. I am sure, I would be exactly like him if I had someone that special in my life...

I know that wasn't what you were saying. My post wasn't a response to yours just something that had been bubbling around in my head all day!

Hmm. Well I suppose it's just a difference of view, although I can spout a few examples of times when his selflessness hurt people other than himself... *cough* newmoon *cough*

amethyst wrote:

holdingoutforjacob wrote:Bella's safety and protection were, of course, Edward's main focus. But his need to keep her entire life completely risk free at the expense of her free will - that was selfish. It scared him, he didn't like being scared, and he eliminated the thing that was scaring him.

I definitely do see his point on this one example in particular, and it is completely legitimate to consider it selfish because it is a matter of interpretation. I just interpret it in a very different way, that is all there is to it.

I don't really have an opinion on this or a solid interpretation, I can see it both ways, and you're right, it's just a matter of opinion. But for the record, I was speaking of his actions towards the beginning of Eclipse, not his leaving in New Moon. While I see his actions in Eclipse as completely selfish, I realize why you don't, and while I see his actions in New Moon as completely selfless, I can see why others find them selfish.

Yes! You're absolutely right. In New Moon, he did hurt Bella immensely by thinking it was something that could benefit her. I was thinking mostly of his actions during Eclipse. Thank you for correcting me.

"I never would have banished him from her society as long as she desired his. . . . . But, till then--if you don't believe me, you don't know me--till then, I would have died by inches before I touched a single hair of his head!"

I'll make a longer post later, but I would like to point out that the "he controlled all the kisses for safety reasons" argument is more-or-less negated by A. his statement at the end of New Moon and B. The fact that he's more than willing to sex her up after they are married, but before she is a vampire.

amethyst wrote:Yes! You're absolutely right. In New Moon, he did hurt Bella immensely by thinking it was something that could benefit her. I was thinking mostly of his actions during Eclipse. Thank you for correcting me.

No problem!

I think that Edward's selflessness hurts him mainly because he will always do what he believes is the best thing for Bella. So, in Eclipse, it became allowing her to have this relationship with Jacob, which he knew she needed to have to make an informed decision and because it was something that meant a lot to her. I have to give him an immense amount of credit that after he finally gave up the jailer act, he was so tolerant of her with Jacob. It was the right thing to do, even though it hurt him immensely, and I admire his strength in that, because I wouldn't be able to handle that at all!

holdingoutforjacob wrote: Personally, amethyst, I totally agree with you here, but I can also see where Knives is coming from.

Bella's safety and protection were, of course, Edward's main focus. But his need to keep her entire life completely risk free at the expense of her free will - that was selfish. It scared him, he didn't like being scared, and he eliminated the thing that was scaring him.

However, he realized it was selfish, and stopped. That's where the difference lies.

*Stands and applauds* Beautiful, HofJ. You took the words right out of my...errr...fingers.

Knives wrote:I'll make a longer post later, but I would like to point out that the "he controlled all the kisses for safety reasons" argument is more-or-less negated by A. his statement at the end of New Moon and B. The fact that he's more than willing to sex her up after they are married, but before she is a vampire.

Knives~ As you aren't horribly specific about to which statement at the end of New Moon you are referring, I will just have to wait to address that when you specify.

But, as for your contention that "he is more than willing to sex her up after they are married but before she is a vampire", I am baffled by your logic. Edward agrees to try to make love with Bella after the wedding only in response to Bella's need to have that experience before she is transformed and his desire to give her every human experience he can before she is changed. The thought of being intimate, let alone the act, terrifies Edward. Edward understands that he must control every movement and every moment when he is around Bella. He also understands that, in the experience of that passion, it would be so easy for him not to be as careful as necessary, particularly if, as he knows she will, Bella is spurring him on with her passionate response to him. But, it is Bella who throws herself at him, begs him to make love to her while she is still human. Bella has absolute faith and trust in Edward that he will not hurt her and that he can control himself. I truly believe that that faith and trust allows Edward to consider the possibility that, like everything else in their relationship, maybe Bella is right about this, as well.

And, when they do make love, Edward is absolutely disgusted with himself for what happens. Where the reality of the situation is that Bella pretty much experiences the best night of her life to that point, all Edward sees is that the mere hardness of his body bruises Bella from head to toe. Edward sees this as confirmation of his very worst fear; the very act of loving her hurts her (again his perception vs reality) and, if you remember, he absolutely refuses to make love to her after that until after she is changed. It is Bella who, again, throws herself at him, essentially forces him to make love to her the second time. Once that happens and Edward sees total proof that he is able to make love to Bella without hurting her, that he can love her and keep her safe at the same time, that Bella's faith and trust in him are not misplaced, then yes, he is fully willing to have an intimate relationship with his wife. But only after he knows with absolute certainty that he won't hurt her.

holdingoutforjacob wrote: Personally, amethyst, I totally agree with you here, but I can also see where

And, when they do make love, Edward is absolutely disgusted with himself for what happens. Where the reality of the situation is that Bella pretty much experiences the best night of her life to that point, all Edward sees is that the mere hardness of his body bruises Bella from head to toe. Edward sees this as confirmation of his very worst fear; the very act of loving her hurts her (again his perception vs reality) and, if you remember, he absolutely refuses to make love to her after that until after she is changed. It is Bella who, again, throws herself at him, essentially forces him to make love to her the second time. Once that happens and Edward sees total proof that he is able to make love to Bella without hurting her, that he can love her and keep her safe at the same time, that Bella's faith and trust in him are not misplaced, then yes, he is fully willing to have an intimate relationship with his wife. But only after he knows with absolute certainty that he won't hurt her. [/color]

I'm a little torn on the topic of Edward's "selflessness". I understand that he sees himself as selfish and Bella sees him as selfless. I agree with both of them at times. Sometimes I completely applaud Edward for the ability to put Bella, her happiness, and her safety above anything else. To love someone to the extent that you would be willing to give them anything they wanted just to make them happy or keep them safety is an amazing thing to think about. Personally I do think she takes advantage of this in Eclipse though. It's like she knows that he is trying his hardest to make up for leaving her, so she pushes him. Just my opinion though. I feel the need to just scream at him and tell him he doesn't have to let her get away with everything just because he feels bad for leaving her.

I also see how he could think of himself as selfish. He knows she's not safe with him, and knows that being with him is making her want to become a vampire (which he clearly doesn't want for her). But at the same time he doesn't want to let her go. He loves her too much to let her go even though in his opinion, being with him isn't in her best interest.