196 comments:

I would advise teachers to step back, take a deep breath, use the critical thinking skills they're supposed to be teaching their students, and really look at the fundamental collective bargaining issue: what are the unions actually doing for them (and the children they claim to care so much about) vs. what are the unions doing to enhance union power.

Thanks, Glenn Beck…I’m a very, very young baby Boomer, but “Days of Rage” would have to include riots, marches, fire, police beatings, National Guard shootings, and bombings by extremist groups…IF this is the “Days of Rage” what was Chicago 1968, Kent State and the Weather Underground? Drudge needs to back off this hyperbole, as does Mr. Beck….

I think Gov. Walker should probably have negotiated and not tried for this partisan play under the guise of fiscal responsibility.

You're willing to take a pay cut, lose benefits and even negotiated a contract. After a new governor takes power, he not only fails to honor you previously negotiated contract but refuses to even talk about a new one.

Of course people are protesting. Left or right, it's not the smart move.

The teachers unions of the Peoples Republic of Madison, Wisc., have done great damage to the public school teachers' cause.

However, I also remember the bad, old days, and the teachers do need protection against the the verkramptes of the local school boards.

Things have gotten out of hand when NEA and the AFT affiliate with the thugs of SEIU and threaten the State Government, but I think this may be more due to poor leadership and misguided loyalty to "liberal" causes, than evil intent.

Teachers are generally good people, which is why they become teachers in the first place, but they obviously are as liable to herd, or mob, action as anyone else when gathered in one place.

(Double posting, but I think it is worth it. Everybody need to take a deep breath and step back a little.)

Luckily I don't have to go in to campus on Thursdays, but one of my friends who teaches today called me this morning actually scared to go in to teach because of our vitriolic colleagues who have intimidated everyone else into canceling classes and going to the capitol to continue the protest. This is insanity the likes of which I've never seen, and if my facebook feed is any indication, today will be the most militant, spiteful day yet.

I think Gov. Walker should probably have negotiated and not tried for this partisan play under the guise of fiscal responsibility.

Walker was governor for all of 20 minutes before he signed into law 137 million in giveaways to his donors. We now have a CRISIS!!!!

It's all bullshit. Rescind that, and the "crisis" is over. But of course it was never about that, it's all about destroying and disrupting Democratic strongholds, it's equilibrium, and it's economic activity. Walker wants Madison to look like North Mississippi. Fuck you asshole. I like Madison the way it is.

Foolish parents give in to tantrums. After that, the kids rule the household.

Smart parents ignore the tantrums. When the kids get tired, they'll go take a nap.

But my favorite parents are the ones who tell the kid, "Oh, you can do better than that. Kick some more. Scream louder. You call that a tantrum? That's pretty lame." The kid gives up the tantrum faster that way, confused and angry that it didn't work.

Hagar, I agree, and I said a similar thing in my first comment on the topic in a previous thread.

The difficulty is that having become obsessed with the political aspects, the teachers unions are no longer in an adversarial relationship with administrators. Basically, in becoming so utterly politicized the union joins the teachers and the administrator into the same generalized causes (much of which don't have a lot to do with direct education). In doing this, the unions actually can begin to work against the best interests of particular teachers in particular situations.

By becoming so politicized, the unions are willing to ignore their primary responsibilities.

Most teachers I know really are good people, and most teachers I know are really frustrated with the use of their union money for causes that go well beyond school issues.

It's not that there's not a role for a teacher's union. It's that the present union has become so bloated as to try to use its good role in the service of its bloated missions. It needs to be shaken up because it is not doing a service to the community anymore, not to the teachers nor to the parents who should have a say in how the schools are functioning.

My co-worker told me that the teachers at her kids grade schools took them to the gym and encourged them all to go home and tell the parents how important it is to support the teachers.

Another'r high school had a "spontaneous" student walk-out, despite none of them really knowing at all WHY they were walking out. The art teacher was even helping make the protest signs prior to the walkout.

I have chosen to send my kids to a parochial school (and NO i am not rich I just sacrifice). I feel the past two days confirm my choice as a good one.

Unionized Wisconsin state employees are under a contract extension that expires in a few weeks because the new contracts were not signed by the lame duck (Democratic) administration in December. The unions were not willing to have the rank-and-file contribute to their pension plan and health insurance premiums back then. Why should Walker have assumed that this would change, without drastic action?

Also, this is a stopgap measure to close a budget shortfall in the current fiscal year. In terms of nonbudgeted upcoming outlays, the state is required under court action to repay $200 million to the medical malpractice claims fund (raided in 2007), to pay $169 million for Medicaid, and to pay $58 million to Minnesota for a tax reciprocity agreement.

The 2011-2013 budget has yet to be discussed but will have to close a $3 billion shortfall.

I just don't see one logical or legitimate response to the fact that everyone is willing to take paycuts, take benefits cuts and has already proved it in a contract.

Refusing to negotiate prompts this sort of response.

As to the 140 million, tax cuts are tax cuts. It's illogical to me to fight a debt by cutting income. I'm aware of the argument that "people who receive that many again will use it to generate more, thus bringing in more tax money". Mathematically though - the likelihood of that happening approaches nil. That's not the argument for today, though - today is about pure politics.

Have the teachers considered the fact that the state is broke and cannot afford the current level of benefits? It's a simple concept...there is not enough money to go around. Everyone will have to sacrifice. Man up.

Wordsmith - they reached agreement with the "lame duck" administration. Walker demanded that it not be signed. Seeing this as the outcome, the administration saw the politically benefit of letting walker get into this corner. (Something I strongly disagree with as well - don't mess with people's lives for political gain left or right).

Your second argument revolves around a stopgap measure. Granted, one is needed. But why not negotiate it and if the talks failed continue on with a budget plan.

Secondly, why use a "stop-gap" bill to directly attack Unions? It's totally illogical. Just do the pay cuts/pension cuts and work on negotiating for next year?

Do not be fooled that fiscal responsibility is the GUISE of this attack.

Those weren't "new taxes". They were new tax breaks, grants, etc. Which moved the State budget from balanced in the fiscal year to a shortfall, which helped create this "emergency".

The Biennial budget coming up is where the real shit hits the fan though. We'll see how much is actually tax cutting and how much is passing the buck to the local level. So far, there's been very little talk about ending programs and services, and the question remains, if the State doesn't reduce taxes, but demands localities deliver the same services, how are the localities going to pay for it? Raise fees/taxes?

I should have cited this originally, but here is the request by walker not to sign contracts I referred to. It was later disclosed that they were willing to take pay cuts/benefit cuts. (Not at the levels of the current bills though)

One Wisconsin Now called $140 million in state tax breaks "spending." It’s estimated that the three bills in question would bring in $140 million less to state coffers. But that’s not spending. You can’t spend what you don’t have.

It's a 140 million reduction of income. You should probably read more than "Pants on Fire" before running your mouth. See my earlier post to explain it, if you don't understand.

"The Democratic National Committee's Organizing for America arm -- the remnant of the 2008 Obama campaign -- is playing an active role in organizing protests against Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker's attempt to strip most public employees of collective bargaining rights."

If using images of Hitler isn't meant to elicit rage, then what are they trying to elicit?People haven't responded to the calls for rage being bellowed by the Teachers, but that doesn't mean they won't. When you appeal to the lowest common denominator, that's who you get. I wonder how many proto-Loughners are in that woman's classes?

Obhviously, I don't think there'll be bloodshed at these phony rallies, but if one were to look for a more inflammatory image than Hitler, I don't think it'd be found. (Well, maybe a noose, but they use that one too.)

@ Madison Man - you said:"You've mastered the Art of Generalization very well."

I did generalize, which was not fair of me. I should have been more specific - per my co-worker, her two daughters and three of their friends that she spoke to had no idea what the walkout was for except that "the teachers and nurses might get fired". Although I am sure that there were some students who truly understood the situation, i suspect that the majority did not.

I would also question the "spontaneity" of the walkout since (per the five students)the administrators went room to room and told the teachers that the students were going to be staging the walkout at 11:30 and they should not attempt to disrupt the event.

"Have the teachers considered the fact that the state is broke and cannot afford the current level of benefits? It's a simple concept...there is not enough money to go around."

They've given it all the consideration that a toddler would when told that he can't have any more cookies because there are no more.

I remember when we'd first moved overseas (the middle east) and we'd been allowed to take a small amount of extra supplies on our flight to our new home. Everything else was being shipped via container.

Anway, one of the things I'd taken was a box of my then two-year-old son's favorite cereal. A week after arrival, it was gone. Now, he was just getting to the point where he could understand and tolerate me telling him "We don't have any more, but Mommy will go to the store later and get some more."

Unfortunately, I had to tell him, "There is no more, and Mommy can't get any at the store because they don't sell that here. You can't have that cereal any more."

I remember him throwing himself on the ground and screaming in rage and frustration. If he had understood the concept, he'd probably have called me Hitler.

Yeah, the tax cuts aren't spending, although business grants are spending.

Still, it's fair to say that those tax cuts created a revenue shortfall, which necessitated an emergency budget adjustment. Which results in this. And that Walker is aiming for a home run by including union busting provisions in addition to benefits cuts.

It's also why Walker pushed through the tax breaks before this bill and the Biennial budget. It would have been a tougher sell during a budget fight.

But Walker won, so it's expected that he's going to implement his agenda. I'm skeptical though, as it seems to be an anti-Keynesian approach. We'll cut a lot of people's earnings and that somehow will spur economic activity, increase demand for Wisconsin products, create jobs, etc. Granted, the State is in a budget crisis so sacrific is needed, but it's probably better to spread that sacrifice as wide as possible. Much of what Walker has been doing is "targetted", tax breaks, benefit reductions, etc. instead of broad based across the board.

It's a 140 million reduction of income. You should probably read more than "Pants on Fire" before running your mouth

Tax breaks on two of the bills can only be claimed if employers create jobs. Presumably, these new employees will be paying state taxes on their compensation. This represents new tax revenue.

The remaining bill allows Wisconsin residents to take a deduction that almost every other state provides. Some would argue that removing incentives for residents to relocate elsewhere also has a positive effect on state tax revenue. Obviously this is more difficult to quantify.

I love the Dems taking off and hiding from the voters. What a bunch of shitbags. Can't even be bothered to represent their constituents if they think they might lose.When Wisconsin is done dealing with their deadbeat Teachers, they should take a look at their deadbeat legislators.

So garage is taking the “tax cuts = spending” line that our President likes to use. Neat!

Ok, Walker is "redistributing the wealth". No? That only works one way does it?

Nobody is disputing the tax breaks he gave, no one is disputing that he is telling state workers they must sacrifice due to a budget deficit. Is it really that hard to put these two simple things together?

Please tell me you're not suggesting that the state employees union is responsible for Wisconsin's relative prosperity.

And see Robert R(eich?) above.

That's exactly what they think. Democrats today are quite unable to distinguish betwen "work" and "make-work," and they do think of government employees as productive labor rather than the overhead expense they are.

Robert R sez: The Biennial budget coming up is where the real shit hits the fan though. We'll see how much is actually tax cutting and how much is passing the buck to the local level. So far, there's been very little talk about ending programs and services, and the question remains, if the State doesn't reduce taxes, but demands localities deliver the same services, how are the localities going to pay for it? Raise fees/taxes?

Correct.

Walker is going to have to follow up with some even tougher medicine.

The worst thing he can do would be to fail in his overall objectives of getting the budget in balance, despite coming to grips with the employee union issues.

Not sure what bullshit you think I am espousing. I do have a Masters in Education, from the education department of a respected university. I have also taught in the graduate business school of that university since 1982.

I have a (real) masters degree with a dual concentration in HR management and Operations management as well as a BA in business and an AS in oceanography.

I also teach packaging technology to graduate students in a well respected engineering school.

So I have some experience in and around academia in several universities and several disciplines. My experience is that the education department in general and my ed degree in specific, are pretty much the most content neutral thing you could have. Even calling it an "education" is a joke. It is merely a credential. Nothing is taught and nothing is learned in ed schools. Not just mine, but from research I did, in any ed school.

I did find the site where I could look of individual teacher salaries but, since I don't know the names of any WI teachers, it was pretty useless.

I also found another site that put most teacher salaries in the $45-60m/yr range, plus benefits.

Not a bad income for 17-1800 hours work and what is basically a glamified HS diploma.

Is it, "You can't pass laws we disagree with, and if you try, we'll run away?"

I thought that -- but this is just the Iowa definition, I suppose -- the *negotiation* is made *manifest* in the voting. But it seems in Wisconsin that if the negotiation goes badly for one side, they get to run away and prevent the voting.

This would seem to suggest that "negotiate", to some, simply means, "I never lose." It's like the legislative equivalent, apparently, of "Too big to fail."

"Tax breaks on two of the bills can only be claimed if employers create jobs. Presumably, these new employees will be paying state taxes on their compensation. This represents new tax revenue."

One of those tax breaks amounts to about $400 per job, which doesn't spur any kind of job creation that wouldn't have occurred anyways. It's a pat on the head for job creation that would have been done anyway.

Obviously, Walker won and had a right to pass his agenda. But it's effectiveness certainly is open to questioning. As well as how much of an "emergency" this really is and how much was created by Walker as cover for his lack of negotiation.

Some of this may be counter-productive. Like pushing through a bill to avoid a wetlands hearing only to discover that Bass Pro Shops, who they were hoping to lure, has no intention on building on wetlands in the first place.

So now the fat illiterates who were bussed in by the Democrats are inside the Statehouse disrupting the vote (Per TV News)?Classic. Let us all see what kind of people are "educating" American children. Fucking dregs.

Point 2: Since taking office, Walker has refused to negotiate AT ALL instead bashing this legislation down everyone throats. Proof: "During a news conference on Friday morning, Walker said he won't negotiate with unionized state workers because the state is broke and he has nothing to offer them."

That's what I mean by not negotiating Bobby. In our state - teachers taught us to read.

Sorry, I realized that previous post may have indicated I was a teacher by saying "this teacher". I wasn't referring to myself. As I mentioned, before Althouse is actually my professor, which means I'm in Law School.

Schoolmarmies protesting does not "Days of Rage" make. BeckBelch sounds even more ridiculous than usual--then, most Mormonics are rabidly anti-union. It's part of the teachings of Moroni or something--Associate not with the Lamanites known as "union members". It is iniquity.

As to the rest, I'd like to see where you found that was their salary in WI.

It was posted in a link in a thread yesterday. http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=6329595&postID=6027990460914569404

I did a calculation on the spread sheet

"It appears according to the spreadsheet you linked the AVERAGE high compensation is 48,978 and the AVERAGE fringes that the teachers receive "tax free" is an additional 25,690 for a total average compensation of $74,668"

So in your sob story that you linked the teacher is getting a rather low salary and thus is representative of the low end of the bell curve. However when you add in the approximately 20K of fringes...the compensation is something like 50K in the private sector.

Are some people lower on the pay scale than others....DUH. Does a brand new teacher start out at the top of the pay scale....hardly. Does ANYONE usually start out at the top of the pyramid? Boo hoo.

"That's what I mean by not negotiating Bobby. In our state - teachers taught us to read."

Actually, if you paid attention to the signs being waved by the "Teachers", you'd see that literacy isn't exactly a Wisconsin public school strong suit. You people "NEEN" better teachers, not more of these babbling union idiots.

"AFSCME was founded in 1932 as the Wisconsin State Administrative, Clerical, Fiscal and Technical Employees Association (quickly becoming the Wisconsin State Employees Association) amid fears of the possible elimination of the civil service and a return to patronage jobs."

I heard the reporter on the ABC network news (before the third hour of Rush) emphasize how respectful and orderly the demonstrators are. That seems to conflict with the shouting down of the legislators in the capitol that Rush has described. I suspect that Rush is correct based on what you have posted and the pictures from inside the capitol.

(I attended the Tea Party rally at the Wisconsin State Capitol last year on April 15th, and I did not see a scrap of litter left behind. Participants not only took care to leave no trash of their own, they looked around and made sure no one else did.)

Thats a very good observation. I will pass that on the Drudge Tip line as from Anne Althouse, who is in Madison monitoring the state employee union protests, and has many photos of the piles of garbage the state workers left.

I also found another site that put most teacher salaries in the $45-60m/yr range, plus benefits.

Wisconsin public school teacher salaries are set locally, by the school districts. They vary considerably by locality and are not close to NJ levels, or even the levels you cite.

My daughter teaches 2d grade in a public school in a small city in northern Wisconsin. She is an outstanding teacher. She has over 10 years experience and has won a Kohl Award, given to outstanding teachers in various districts throughout the state. Parents lobby to get their kids into her class.

She is paid about $40k per year, plus benefits. The principal benefits are health insurance (to which she contributes part of the cost), and a pension, which is defined contribution, and to which she also must contribute. Her hours are long, the job is difficult and since she has two children of her own, the summers off are very welcome.

I don't know about compensation for Madison teachers, but it's probably quite a bit higher.

I support what Walker is doing, but not because public school teachers are the main problem. The problem is in the UW system, local community college systems (utterly out of control), state and local employees of various types and excessive head counts in unnecessary jobs.

The Madison teachers are idiots for abandoning their kids this week, but don't think that most public school teachers in Wisconsin have a gravy train. They don't.

Hagar said:"The teachers unions of the Peoples Republic of Madison, Wisc., have done great damage to the public school teachers' cause.

However, I also remember the bad, old days, and the teachers do need protection against the the verkramptes of the local school boards.

Things have gotten out of hand when NEA and the AFT affiliate with the thugs of SEIU and threaten the State Government, but I think this may be more due to poor leadership and misguided loyalty to "liberal" causes, than evil intent.

Teachers are generally good people, which is why they become teachers in the first place, but they obviously are as liable to herd, or mob, action as anyone else when gathered in one place.

(Double posting, but I think it is worth it. Everybody need to take a deep breath and step back a little.)"

Well said. I agree on all points. There are. of course, issues to be negotiated here. But, just like the rest of us, teachers work for money, not for love--even if they love what they do. It is always odd to me how much populist sentiment hates teachers and wants to punish them. Like my dimwitted sister-in-law and her Neanderthal husband.

Some of this may be counter-productive. Like pushing through a bill to avoid a wetlands hearing only to discover that Bass Pro Shops, who they were hoping to lure, has no intention on building on wetlands in the first place.

You’re not from Arkansas are you? We’ve been trying to get a bass pro shop for approximately 10 years in a spot with “wetlands” and it hasn’t happened. Meanwhile Gander Mountain moved in and I think that’s all she wrote.

Yes, lucid.Teachers of whatever sort really bother Yokeli Americanus. Were it up to the usual biblethumping conservative or teabagger, the local baptist and/or mormon churches would hire teachers, and run the education business.

chickelit, I meant that if it's accurate that President Obama "knows" that this is "an assault on unions" even though "he hadn’t looked into the details", then he hasn't learned from the "acting stupidly" incident. Or the Arizona immigration bill. Or the Egypt uprisings. Or...

Some advice for President Obama, and indeed any politician: if you haven't looked into the details, say "I haven't looked into the details," and stop there.

Just for clarity, I have nothing against teachers, per se. I think they are as much victims of the system as anyone else.

My objections are much more fundamental. My objections are to the way we train teachers. Or more accurately, don't train them. They get exposed to lots of touchy feely stuff but very little education.

They then try to teach subjects of which they have little or no knowledge.

My problems are also with curricula which emphasize touchy feely stuff at the expense of actually teaching useful knowledge. We have kids getting HS diplomas who cannot read or write or do simple math.

We have lots of problems her in PR with our education system but I do like the way we handle teacher education. For the most part, teachers get regular degrees, in regular disciplines, in regular university departments. They come out with regular majors and minors in education.

For example, my wife, has been teaching HS history civics, history and the like since 1972. She has a BA in History and political science and a minor in education.

We need more of this kind of education for our teachers. We need to make it easier for people who actually know stuff and have done things to be able to teach. Bill Gates could not teach computer science in HS unless he went back and 1) got a BA 2) got a bunch of education credits.

On the other hand, our hostess is, by all accounts, a pretty good teacher of law. I don't think she has any formal training or credentials in education.

Lucid: "It is always odd to me how much populist sentiment hates teachers and wants to punish them."

Where do you see hatred of teachers on this or other threads dealing with this topic? Commentators think that teachers should not call in sick when they aren't. commentators believe that the unions are doing the teachers a disservice. commentators believe that teachers have a pretty good gig and appropriate pay. Commentators believe that the system's administration is bloated and perhaps overpaid. But nowhere will you find that teachers are "hated." It is that kind of silly hyperbole that turns off people from the "cause."

9 out of 10 americans don't have jobs. the public sector has grown during this period. People are naturally a bit peeved with these demonstrations.

I think Walker's done a good job negotiating. He's taken FDR's 1937 position on the inappropriateness of unions striking against the public, then he's gone forward to find out if he has enough votes to ratify the negotiation.

The subject unions and the Democrats have responded by saying that because they won this particular negotiation in decades past, they can't lose the negotiation in the present day. So they've run away, Thanks for confirming my point: "negotiating", in Wiscy, means never having to say (to your compulsory union members) you're sorry, you lost a vote.

The thing about negotiations is that they're funny -- they can go either way. You can win or lose. You can lose things you used to win. You can win things you used to lose. It's the darndest thing, because, as it turns out the world and its voters change.

Next I guess we'll hear that this is an "assault" on union members' civil rights, and we can get the Justice Department in there to rehabilitate the legislature! "Assault": it's like a failure to "negotiate".

"Madison — Law enforcement officers are searching for Democratic senators boycotting a Senate vote on Gov. Scott Walker's budget-repair plan Thursday in an attempt to bring the lawmakers to the floor to allow Republicans to move forward with action on the bill."

"What problems that you have with the UW system would be solved by Gov. Walker's bill?"

Very few. They need to reduce administrative head count and concentrate resources on faculty and instruction. That will not be achieved by this bill, which no one claims is the overall solution. It's just one necessary step.

Both of my parents were public school teachers and member of the union.

But nowadays, too many public schools have created ginormous & expensive bureaucracies that suck too many tax dollars out of the classroom. Therefore, teachers are paid less because there are fewer dollars left after the bureaucracy gets its money. Teachers should be protesting against the bureaucracies. Turn their pitchforks against the curriculum advisors, the layers & layers of educrats, the assts to the assts to the assts principals, the district spokespeople, etc.

The point was, the Legislature ran the bill exempting the spot from Wetlands Proctection through. And then Bass turned around and said "We don't build on wetlands." And that was that.

Thanks, MM. I just think it’s interesting that there was a wetlands+bass pro shop issue in another town. I wonder if the “we don’t build on wetlands” thing was the reason ours stalled out. (although we didn’t have similar legislative actions to try to exempt the spot, they did try to do some sort of tax incentive. The project never got off the ground, though).

And that’s your first mistake, no one will protect a “swamp”, but they’ll die to protect, “Wetlands.” Just like no one cares about the “Jungle” but turn them into “Rain Forests” and suddenly it’s a cause celebre.

I get it now. Union-busting is like head-busting, hence an "assault", and any vote to ratify a decertification of a public employee's union is, facially, illegitimate.

Thank goodness the Democrats in the Wiscy legislature are not dignifying this crime against, hmm, collective-bargaining-by-public-employees-who-call-in-sick-and-refuse-to-work. That's what running away and hiding is for, for goodness sakes.

Walker and a majority of the state and legislature gave them no choice, obviously, because employment agreements only increase in value, forever, irrespective of the world changing and stuff.

Good grief. Talk about turgid prose. "Like Cairo Moved To Madison"? Sheesh.

---

I suspect different kids chose to do different things during their "time off" for different reasons. (This is not to say I approve of teachers recruiting students to protest; I emphatically do not.) It's been ever thus. And I further suspect the majority did not turn out for the protests, or at least not to actually protest, especially out of personal passion for politics and policy.

---

During the fall of my senior year in high school, there was a weeks' long teachers strike (as in, well more than a month; I don't remember exactly, anymore, but I want to say 6-7 weeks). It commenced just a few weeks after school started, which school year start coincided with the commencement of the first year of court-ordered busing in New Castle County Delaware. Interesting times, and I daresay the experience affected more than a few students' attitudes about various things. However, even more seemed to enjoy being able to spend time at the newly opened Brand New Indoor Mall, which enjoyed quite a boon in traffic and even sales.

This is going to be buried as the 153rd comment, but it's interesting to note, once again, some of the violent undertones in the propaganda on display. In addition to the Hitler references, there are many signs, chants, etc, calling for the bill to be killed. All this while children walk the streets, learning how to behave from their teachers.

2: 08: of course, you're wrong. For that matter, opposing religious fundamentalists does not imply one's an atheist either, except to those afflicted with the GlennBeck-disease (typical symptom--inability to reason, prone to barking out conservative slogans, bible verses, or Ayn Rynd-quotes).

I think it's extraordinarily instructive that the Democratic Senators have fled the scene. Usually, when one takes an oath to uphold an office (that is, in other states), there isn't language like, "... unless it appears that distressing legislative defeat is likely, in which case, flee the state."

The people who are inciting the phrase of don't tread on me should realize the irony of using a phrase to oppose excessive taxation to promote INCREASED taxation to cover these debts and pay these cut benefits.

That's because you are not listening. It has been asked and answered many times.

@DBQ

I have made a comprehensive catalog of the comments on this thread that relate (even peripherally) to the rationale or a justification of the Governor's bill. Please point out which one you think answers the question that Dose of Sanity asked.

#ShoutingThomasLeftist domination of academia and public institutions is about to be seriously challenged. Next up, taking on the leftist indoctrination mills of academia and the arts.

#Paddy OIt's not that there's not a role for a teacher's union. It's that the present union has become so bloated as to try to use its good role in the service of its bloated missions. It needs to be shaken up because it is not doing a service to the community anymore, not to the teachers nor to the parents who should have a say in how the schools are functioning.

#Wordsmith2Unionized Wisconsin state employees are under a contract extension that expires in a few weeks because the new contracts were not signed by the lame duck (Democratic) administration in December. The unions were not willing to have the rank-and-file contribute to their pension plan and health insurance premiums back then. Why should Walker have assumed that this would change, without drastic action?

#Robert RBut Walker won, so it's expected that he's going to implement his agenda. I'm skeptical though, as it seems to be an anti-Keynesian approach. We'll cut a lot of people's earnings and that somehow will spur economic activity, increase demand for Wisconsin products, create jobs, etc. Granted, the State is in a budget crisis so sacrific is needed, but it's probably better to spread that sacrifice as wide as possible. Much of what Walker has been doing is "targetted", tax breaks, benefit reductions, etc. instead of broad based across the board.

#Robert R (again)Obviously, Walker won and had a right to pass his agenda. But it's effectiveness certainly is open to questioning. As well as how much of an "emergency" this really is and how much was created by Walker as cover for his lack of negotiation.

#DavidI support what Walker is doing, but not because public school teachers are the main problem. The problem is in the UW system, local community college systems (utterly out of control), state and local employees of various types and excessive head counts in unnecessary jobs.

#JohnMy objections are much more fundamental. My objections are to the way we train teachers. Or more accurately, don't train them. They get exposed to lots of touchy feely stuff but very little education.

#MichaelCommentators think that teachers should not call in sick when they aren't. commentators believe that the unions are doing the teachers a disservice. commentators believe that teachers have a pretty good gig and appropriate pay. Commentators believe that the system's administration is bloated and perhaps overpaid.

#AJLynchBut nowadays, too many public schools have created ginormous & expensive bureaucracies that suck too many tax dollars out of the classroom. Therefore, teachers are paid less because there are fewer dollars left after the bureaucracy gets its money. Teachers should be protesting against the bureaucracies. Turn their pitchforks against the curriculum advisors, the layers & layers of educrats, the assts to the assts to the assts principals, the district spokespeople, etc.

So if these shitbag shakedown artists take tomorrow off too, can the Governor simply fire their asses? Refusal to work while under contract is grounds for termination, isn't it?Take the opportunity, Gov. Walker, you won't get a better one. The kids of Wisconsin would be far better off if these foul clumps of deadweight were jettisoned once and for all.

Hicks? Man, there are hicks and there are hicks with the top of the line hicks hailing from The Valley, The San Fernando Freaking Valley where a hick is a hick is a hick on stilts. Lap behind hipsters wearing last year's boots,using last year's expressions, reading the slightly wrong books and listening to the wrong music. Just over the hill the real stuff is going down.

J is channeling the scene in "Blazing Saddles" where Gene Wilder describes the residents of Rock Ridge as, "The salt of the earth, the common clay; you know - morons" and thinks he's being witty.

He also thinks he's impressing somebody.

"A better solution to the edu-crisis would be like getting rid of religious fundamentalists of all types--from school boards, schools, and politics. Arrest a mormon now for Jefferson" - Gee, is that hate speech?

Cedarford said...

Thats a very good observation. I will pass that on the Drudge Tip line as from Anne Althouse, who is in Madison monitoring the state employee union protests, and has many photos of the piles of garbage the state workers left.

Very sleazy, guy. You know the average union slug hasn't got the guts to face anybody in broad daylight, but trashing some unsuspecting lady's house or car in the dead of night, maybe even attacking her? That's their speed.

Sorry, I realized that previous post may have indicated I was a teacher by saying "this teacher". I wasn't referring to myself. As I mentioned, before Althouse is actually my professor, which means I'm in Law School.

Boy, you must be very smart. I'm so impressed. But then my son who's a plumber also got a 95th percentile score on the LSAT. I bet he can do a better job analyzing a legal brief than you can do at sweating a copper pipe.

So you've got precious little real world experience, having not left the cozy confines of the classroom yet. Come back in 10 years when you've experience reality.

Of course by then you'll be probably whining about not getting paid the salary that you "deserve" because you went to law school. Funny, I've never seen a med student capitalize med school.

When I was in college at the University of Alabama, some of my classmates were from up-north and they were amazed that we had paved roads and indoor facilities. Later on when I was in the military and visited Rantoul, Illinois, Alpena, Michigan, and Volk Field, Wisconsin, I was amazed to see that much of the north was more backward and undeveloped than the south. Therefore, this sort of thing going on in Madison is not a surprise to me.