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The minister who’s an atheist

Rev. Gretta Vosper, an atheist United Minister, delivers the Sunday service at West Hill United Church in Scarborough last month. (J.P. MOCZULSKI / The Toronto Star)

Sat., Feb. 27, 2016

Re: Beyond belief, Insight Feb. 21

Beyond belief, Insight Feb. 21

Thanks to reporter Amy Dempsey for her informative feature on the life and ministry of the Rev. Gretta Vosper. I dare say that if the wider public knew what Gretta means by the word “atheist,” a very high percentage of clergy and parishioners would find themselves on the same page.

By “atheist” she simply means that she no longer believes in a “theistic” definition of God, which sees “God” as a physical being who resides somewhere up there or out there beyond the clouds and who rewards the righteous and punishes the wicked and who intervenes in the world to perform miraculous deeds from time to time.

As a retired minister of the United Church of Canada, I know very few clergy who still adhere to this primitive, pre-Capernian, pre-Darwinian, pre-Freudian view of God and the world.

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After attending services at Gretta’s West Hill United Church, I have found it very uplifting, life-affirming and exemplary of what it surely means when Jesus said, “I have come that you may have life; life in all its fullness.”

Rev. Jim Thompson, Ramara

Thank you for Amy Dempsey’s thoughtful and well-researched article about Gretta Vosper. I have been a part of the congregation for just a few years, but am consistently impressed with Gretta’s honesty, courage and openness. I appreciate that the word “atheist” is often misread, and Ms Dempsey’s article clarifies a difficult concept, and puts Gretta’s position in context.

Elaine Sidhu, Scarborough

As a Christian, this whole matter has caused me to reflect upon the nature of my faith. What I find so fascinating about all this is not the fact that an ordained United Church minister describes herself as an atheist and wants to continue ministering, but rather the people’s responses to this.

Regardless of how progressive of a reputation the United Church has, even this circumstance would raise some eyebrows. To many Christians just the mention of an “atheist minister” already raises red flags – the term itself sounding like an oxymoron. But there are those in her congregation who continue to support her. Is it so wrong to want to stand with the people who seek guidance from you?

I think that with this matter, it’s causing people to question what makes someone a Christian. Just because Gretta Vosper’s doctrinal beliefs may not conform to the norms of Christianity, should this be enough to cease her duties as a minister in a Christian church? Her unorthodox approach may not be such a bad thing if it is invoking deep spiritual thought within her congregation.

If she were to get dismissed, I can’t say it would be all that unprecedented, but it seems like she’s formed a good relationship with those in her congregation and dismissing her wouldn’t be great for those people.

Though I do not exactly agree with her beliefs, this controversial matter is shining light on a new perspective to see Christianity.

Jeremy Tobing, Ajax

For many years, the United Church has recognized individuals who are poorly trained, or who do not hold to the main teachings of the faith, as ministers. That is why they have been labeled as “liberals” among the Christian community. They pretend to teach from the Bible while not believing it to be true.

Unfortunately, most religious colleges and universities are also filled with liberal teachers teaching from text books that deny the basic truths of the faith.

That this woman has declared herself to be an atheist doesn’t really separate herself from many of her colleagues since you have to believe those truths (which she has denied) in order to be a Christ follower. As in anything, to be labeled a true follower, one who believes must accept the teachings of Scripture. To deny them puts you outside of the realm of being a Christian teacher or pastor.

Until the United Church brings in serious renewal and a commitment to the fundamental truths, then one can only regard their ministers like the description Jesus gave of the Pharisees, “white washed tombs.” They have the look of something clean and good on the outside but are dead inside.

Gary Crosbie, Halton Hills

A Christian minister can no more be atheist than a communist can be a Christian. The Rev. Gretta Vosper should do the right thing by leaving the United Church and joining a charitable organization.

William Bedford, Newmarket

My husband and I joined West Hill United Church in spring 2015, following an article in the Star. We had been waiting for a spiritual community with a sane and helpful approach to life.

Gretta Vosper teaches kindness, fairness, forgiveness, attention to native issues, and love. What, in this wonderful, crazy, chaotic, beautiful world could possibly be more important?

Patricia Lycett, Bowmanville

Gretta Vosper’s definition of atheism is confusing. She apparently still believes in God – just not that God. I would find her story more compelling if she were simply to come forward and say that she doesn’t believe in God – period.

George Parker, Cobourg

This article was absolutely phenomenal. Being an atheist myself I was skeptical. She’s a minister but she’s also an atheist? It seemed very contradictory but what she stands for is almost revolutionary.

Changing such a widely practised religion into a modernized teaching that incorporates open-mindedness while keeping traditional faith figures is an amazing feat and I don’t think people realize that.

If she succeeds with her modernization of Christian practices, I wouldn’t be surprised if other people begin to do the same with other religious practices and it becomes a huge movement.

This could possibly be a giant step forward for world peace; eradicating extremism and installing inclusive, open-hearted nature. The beginning of a new era for religion.

Kimberley Urquhart, Ajax

I support Rev. Gretta Vosper. It is good to test the limits of our beliefs and open up our minds. When I was younger, I moved from the Anglican church to the United Church because of people like Rev. Gretta Vosper.

Many of humanity’s problems are due to people having rigid, closed minds. Religious dogma is a prime example. It is a scourge that should have been eradicated long ago. From my perspective, Rev. Gretta Vosper is a loving honest leader in a Christian church. The number of people who are turning away from their historical family religious teachings is growing. Religions are slowing dying an ignoble death. I support the concept of religions and communities having congregations, but I do not believe that religious dogma ever served humanity.

Religions tend to be self centred, self serving and exclude the rest of humanity. It is their way or the highway. The author, Neale Donald Walsch, in his Conversations with God books stated what I believe Rev. Vosper is trying to message, “Ours is not a better way, ours is merely another way.” She is attempting to expand our minds to see God in a different light. It is up to each of us to make up our own minds, decide who we want to be and have our own beliefs.

This is where people tend to hit a wall. People have a nasty habit of demanding that everyone else must believe as they do. There are countless items reported in the news where people of one belief or another (whether religious based or not), demand that laws and rules be changed to suit their beliefs. So much for religious freedom!

I do not believe that people who were raised in a specific religion and will not vary their thoughts from what they have been told, have any beliefs at all. All they have is what they have been told. They are just parroting what their religion tells them. This is not belief, it is memorization and regurgitation. Many people like to say it is belief but it is not, it is brainwashing. For me, true belief only comes after opening up to other ideas and beliefs - it is self created.

I give Rev. Gretta Vosper and the United Church high marks and credit for endorsing an open dialogue. I just hope the United Church recognizes the truly world changing step it would be to allow Rev. Gretta Vosper to continue in her role.

Martin Campbell, Toronto

Some years ago I applied for three administrative jobs for which I was eminently qualified. One was with Redpath Sugar; one with Phillip Morris Tobacco and one with The Toronto Blue Jays.

During the interview at Redpath I was offered coffee. I did not take sugar in my coffee. I did not get the job.

At Phillip Morris I was offered a cigarette. I do not smoke. I did not get the job.

The manager of The Blue Jays asked me if I was a baseball fan. I said I knew very little about baseball. I did not get the job.

All these managers were absolutely right not to hire me. You do not hire people who don’t believe in your product.

Gretta Vosper should be given some other job in the United Church: it is ridiculous to keep her on as a minister.

Cathy White, Toronto

I read the three-page spread devoted to the atheist pastor. I would like to ask if you could do a three-page spread on the Christian couple who went to Uganda under Idi Amin and now have built an incredible legacy of saving the lives of so many in that decimated country – https://vimeo.com/watoto .

Jennifer Kiyonaga, Toronto

Congratulations on the article about Gretta Vosper. It is balanced and informative, thoughtful and thought-provoking. Amy Dempsey has followed the highest standards of journalistic writing.

I am a relative newcomer to West Hill United Church, since 2015. I have been an atheist quite comfortably since my mid-20s, about 50 years ago. I was not in search of any “spiritual” guidance or support. My concern was that religious fanaticism has been on the rise in the last two decades or so.

After reading Vosper’s book Amen, I was curious enough to check out West Hill. From that very first visit, I have felt welcome by Vosper and the church attendees. In the West Hill Church ministered by Vosper, I find people who are sincerely practising the Christian ideals of love and forbearance, trying to understand the many challenges in the world and on our planet, and doing what they can here and now as responsible Canadian and world citizens.

They can do this and should do this within the United Church because the church, I would like to think, is open and inclusive. It can encompass ministers like Gretta and people like me who do not believe in the supernatural but want to be truly human and humane human beings. This is a real community.

In September of last year, I wrote to the leaders of the United Church in charge of the review of Vosper. The following is an excerpt from that letter which may or may not be of interest to you or Amy Dempsey.

“. . . My knowledge of the United Church comes down to two items. One, it was formed with the union of two Protestant denominations in 1925, which meant that dialogue and exploration of differences were part of your tradition. Two, what I learned about Rev. James Endicott, a one time Moderator of the United Church, when I was a student at University of Toronto in the 1960s and 1970s.

Even though I was already an atheist then, I was impressed by Rev. Endicott’s wisdom and compassion for the Chinese people in the 1940s and beyond. He understood the Chinese people and realized that the Chinese Communists were far more helpful to the people, especially the poor, than the Nationalist Party supported by the United States government. He reached out to the Chinese Communists while world powers condemned them. Rev. Endicott saw that a quarter of humankind should not shut out of the world community simply because of differences in political ideologies held by the world leaders. (This was important to me as a Canadian of Chinese ancestry). He was, of course, condemned by world leaders including John Diefenbaker and Lester Pearson. He was also criticized and denounced by his colleagues in the United Church.

World events eventually vindicated Rev. Endicott’s foresight and action.

What also impressed me was the integrity and honesty of the United Church. It later formally apologized to James Endicott for its denunciation of him decades earlier.

The United Church to me, an outsider, is that it allows trailblazers like James Endicott and Gretta Vosper to make choices and take actions where their insights and honesty would lead them. Its ministers could reach out and embrace communists at a time when the latter were more or less considered satanic, or atheists when knowledge of our world and the universe/multiverse calls into questions our earlier beliefs, and when the rest of the world seems to be consumed in religious strife or strife instigated by religions directly or indirectly. . . .”

Wei Djao, Toronto

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