"Single fathers and those earning less than $60,000 a year were excluded from the study."

Maybe the "study" should lower "its" expectations before telling women to. Do I hear any bids for $55,000?

Those exclusions are ridiculous, and limit a woman's opportunities.

Ever seen the movie: Yours, Mine, and Ours. Funny but a true story.

In Los Angeles, it was reported years ago in the local Catholic newspaper that a married man who had just lost his wife to cancer, but who had five children, took different single women in his parish to the same restaurant each Saturday night. He would order the same dinner for each of his children and for him and his date: Lobster. Well, he had just about run out of dates, when he met his future wife. All the other women had failed the test, but this one lady passed his scrutiny when she cracked open all the lobster legs and cut up the meat for each of his five children. When she got to her own lobster, it was then COLD. He was looking for someone who was selfless and who could be a Mother to his children. She did exactly that. At last report, they were still very happily married.

a) sounds like he was interviewing for a nanny rather than looking for a wife.b) if he could afford 7 lobster dinners every weekend, it's not hard to see where he got the sense of entitlement to approach the search for his new nanny as an interview process.c) if after watching him order lobster for his 5 kids and then not lifting a finger to help his *own* kids crack the shells, she still wanted him, she's welcome to him.

I had a number of women approach me because they were looking for a father figure for their kids. And so some people do want a wife or husband who could also be a nanny/mentor figure as well.

I personally don't see anything wrong with that for if that's what they want then that's what they want.

The problem I would see with that is, marriage is a whole lot more than raising kids. Even if it was just that, it will still require that the husband and wife be in a real relationship with one another to raise the kids grow up to be decent human beings. if mom and dad, love and like one another, respect one another, share a friendship with one another, are loyal to one another, are there for one another, then kids growing up in that kind of home will grow up being decent human beings; who also other things being equal, will be more likely to have a good relationship and in turn be better parents themselves.

There is a lot wrong in what the man did, assuming ofc its all that he did, to decide on who to marry. he is setting everyone including his kids for a major disappointment IMHO

Wow! The couple have been happily married for many years now (at least 25 years).

I wonder how many other men and women test their prospective spouses before committing to them in Holy Matrimony (Holy Crowning? I know that I asked the Lord to help me. The sign I was looking for: that we would be drawn closer to Christ Jesus and that we would meet at a Christian event. My parents were also pleased. It was a win-win situation.

Maria I am sure you would agree that the length of marriage does not necessarily translate into evidence of having a good marriage. People stay married for a number of reasons, not all them good. In a marriage where one is using the other, this can go on forever and still the marriage will not be a healthy one. In this case I am happy to hear that they had a happy marriage. However if we were speaking in general what he did had many problems the way I look at it.

I have no issue with him trying to discern the right person to marry, my issue was that he was lying to himself, and others when he chose her over the others only based on what she did on that restaurant and by the lake for his kids. A human person is far more complex than that, and their relationships are far more complex than that. Surely he has other sides to him besides being a father to those kids. What does he believe in? What kind of Character does he have? What is it about her he liked besides how she treated his kids? How does he see her besides the mothering/ nurturing kind? What does he think she likes about him? What is their connection besides the kids, do they have spiritual compatibility? Do they have chemistry? Do they have intellectual compatibility (I do not mean education although that might factor in somewhat) what kind of man is he with and without money? (Some men can handle poverty, loss of status, without losing themselves to bitterness, etc. and turn into unbearable I am a man and happy only when I got money brutes. While others turn into a sleazy, nasty fools, when they get money, status and access to unlimited choice.) So does he have a rock solid character that remains in good or bad times whatever those may be? Does she? There are many challenging factors in life, that test the fabric of relationships, and from my limited observation (being never married, and currently unattached so take my opinion with a grain of salt) only mutual love and common spiritual goal survives them.

Kids are quite observant; they pick up tone of voice, body language, and in general what is going on in their homes. What they see affects them, some are resilient and turn out to be decent human beings even growing up in the worst possible environments, yet others are not so lucky. IMHO The best gift two parents can give their kids is to love one another, in the wholesome definition of love and what it entails in it through all circumstances of life.

I agree with you that most of us do indeed if not test (I do not like the term and its connotation), at least try to get to know the person well enough to see if we are compatible. Marriage is certainly not a destination, it’s a journey, and only God knows the person fully even better than they know themselves. So what each person can do is, first understand oneself well enough to know one’s strength and weakness, as no one is perfect and ones aspirations( spiritual or otherwise) as well as the driving force behind those aspirations. for instance like you did, to see if they share the same spiritual goal with each other, that is a foundation for how they treat each other, how they see their life together, how much they work towards that same goal etc. It could be that you might find a spiritual person but you cannot feel the pull of attraction towards them for whatever reason, it might be that there are people who are like tape recorders who can recite the word of God without having anything intimate with it themselves, or are self-righteous and are hell to be with so there is a risk of being deceived by false spirituality too. in the end the element of risk is always there, however after doing what we can to ensure we are not being deceived by others or ourselves, we take a calculated risk, as Christians we leave the rest in faith to God.

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To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.

In short, I think women look for a truly faithful Orthodox man....because if he is "truly" Orthodox, in every sense, then he would be trustworthy and would have integrity. Believe me, looks aren't even secondary....they fall somewhere at the bottom of the list.

unfortunately I know too many counter examples to your good example Liza.

....and I could easily come back with my own examples, from personal experience with men....that would counter yours.

As for the men with kids conversations....I got to be honest. I always talk to men with kids. To me they seem completely "off limits" and I am free to honestly have a neutral discussion with them. It doesn't mean I am on the "prowl". Perhaps, I should rethink this, and stay away from men with kids altogether....because perhaps they truly do misconstrue my actions....and think I DO have something in mind, when I don't.

This whole men/women thing is just too much!

THANK GOD I am single and happy!!!!! I don't need to play any of these silly games!

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Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

Kids are quite observant; they pick up tone of voice, body language, and in general what is going on in their homes. What they see affects them, some are resilient and turn out to be decent human beings even growing up in the worst possible environments, yet others are not so lucky. IMHO The best gift two parents can give their kids is to love one another, in the wholesome definition of love and what it entails in it through all circumstances of life.

Well hello, truest statement in this thread. It's nice to see you.

Seriously excellent post, Hiwot. Posts like yours give me hope that we can rise above the acrimony that issues like this usually provoke and maybe actually learn something beyond what some flawed study tells us about women's chances to marry in a place where most of us don't even live.

I would think that everyone who is of a certain age and has been paying attention in their life can come up with examples and counterexamples to both Isa's and Liza's stances, so that's kind of a draw. It seems to me that what is most important is to have (realistic) standards for yourself that you actually stick to and understand the reasons for sticking to, as I know too many who got married to the person they did or stayed married for too long for reasons that don't really make sense in light of what they say they wanted, so it seems like many people are in at least some degree of denial when they say they just want a man who ____ or a woman who ____. Well, what is it, then? There certainly are plenty of singles out there (marriage seems to be really out of fashion for heterosexuals these days), so what's stopping you? Is it that you're lying to yourself about what you want, or that you have some degree of self-awareness and realize that you're asking for more from your mate than what you can offer in return? Because I've seen a lot of both...heck, I've perpetrated my fair share of both! That's why I can enjoy being single now...it gives me the distance from my own past stupidity to hopefully learn something from it so that if I am ever not single again I at least won't make the exact same mistakes as before. But anyway...an honest assessment of yourself and your situation (whether married, single, or whatever) does wonders, I think.

Men lately have commitment issues. They simply want to milk the cow and not buy it.

I'll bet you that well over half of those women you claim don't get married in their early years, don't, because the men won't commit. They all have "boyfriends"....but, the men are the ones who don't want to get married right now.

Why marry her, if you are only going to divorce her in a few years, and then have to split your wealth, etc. Many men (even some comments on this forum) treat marriage as a joke or a burden. Believe me, women don't want to be a burden to any man.

This statement would be comically if it weren't so ignorant. Care to explain the current system of no-fault divorce, alimony, and child support?

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...and let's be honest about men in today's society. You blame the women for going out to work.....this is the downfall of the family. However, that woman who works at the office all day, still is the main childcarer, food preparer and cleaner upper. So, don't think women have it "easier" these days and are shirking their responsibilities. On the contrary, their responsibilities have simply increased....not even mentioning elder-care.

It's a society issue, not a woman issue..... the couple wants the bigger house, the new hybrid vehicle, etc.....all of which they cannot obtain on a single income. They need two incomes to fulfill their "dreams". Both parties are just as guilty....and it's their children who suffer, grow up with minimal supervision and a skewed view of what is truly important in this life.

...one more thing. When you men are sizing up your prospective spouse....you look at her beauty....and if she catches your eye because she's either voluptuous, blonde or stick thin....you wonder what it is she "does" for a living. Therefore, YOU expect that woman to be gainfully employed.

Men do not give a fig newton about what a woman does for a living. Maybe it has happened in the history of the universe, but I have never heard of a man gushing to his friends, "and get this - she's a high-powered lawyer/corporate president/brain surgeon!"

I'll make this easy - being a less-than-attractive woman is like being a man: you're going to have to work. Attractive women don't have to.

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If she were unemployed at age 27, living with and off her parents, I'll bet most of you wouldn't give her a second thought. Be honest with yourselves.

Ok, let's be really honest with ourselves. Creeping up on 50 years and there's not been one man to fit the bill?

As it happens, my years in Japan were actually my most wayward and I spent most of my free time in the red light district of my town. The mama-san of a sunakku took quite good care of me. I still visit her with my family during my yearly trips to Japan.

As for the jailbird offering such insights into relationships here - I wonder how it is working out for him, to borrow the cliche.

Kids are quite observant; they pick up tone of voice, body language, and in general what is going on in their homes. What they see affects them, some are resilient and turn out to be decent human beings even growing up in the worst possible environments, yet others are not so lucky. IMHO The best gift two parents can give their kids is to love one another, in the wholesome definition of love and what it entails in it through all circumstances of life.

People like to gush about how wondrous the minds of children are, but the fact is that kids have low future-time orientation and are gullible.

Still don't believe me? Think of every example, ever, of "kids say the darnedest things". Now imagine an adult saying those things. You would think that adult was a moron.

As it happens, my years in Japan were actually my most wayward and I spent most of my free time in the red light district of my town. The mama-san of a sunakku took quite good care of me. I still visit her with my family during my yearly trips to Japan.

Why are you racist against Japan?

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As for the jailbird offering such insights into relationships here - I wonder how it is working out for him, to borrow the cliche.

We have someone here who was in jail? Wow, that must be a really bad person. It would be pretty bad if we were required to be charitable to prisoners. Can you imagine actually having to visit one? Gross.

Kids are quite observant; they pick up tone of voice, body language, and in general what is going on in their homes. What they see affects them, some are resilient and turn out to be decent human beings even growing up in the worst possible environments, yet others are not so lucky. IMHO The best gift two parents can give their kids is to love one another, in the wholesome definition of love and what it entails in it through all circumstances of life.

People like to gush about how wondrous the minds of children are, but the fact is that kids have low future-time orientation and are gullible.

Still don't believe me? Think of every example, ever, of "kids say the darnedest things". Now imagine an adult saying those things. You would think that adult was a moron.

Your example is moronic, but just to play along, you don't really need to not be a moron to understand "mom and dad are fighting again, and when they aren't, they're cold and distant to each other; the atmosphere in this house is very tense and bad, and their bad marriage probably has a lot to do with that."

Men lately have commitment issues. They simply want to milk the cow and not buy it.

I'll bet you that well over half of those women you claim don't get married in their early years, don't, because the men won't commit. They all have "boyfriends"....but, the men are the ones who don't want to get married right now.

Why marry her, if you are only going to divorce her in a few years, and then have to split your wealth, etc. Many men (even some comments on this forum) treat marriage as a joke or a burden. Believe me, women don't want to be a burden to any man.

This statement would be comically if it weren't so ignorant. Care to explain the current system of no-fault divorce, alimony, and child support?

No woman marries a man wanting to be a burden on him. Plenty of women divorce a man wanting to extract revenge on him. And child support? Really?

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...and let's be honest about men in today's society. You blame the women for going out to work.....this is the downfall of the family. However, that woman who works at the office all day, still is the main childcarer, food preparer and cleaner upper. So, don't think women have it "easier" these days and are shirking their responsibilities. On the contrary, their responsibilities have simply increased....not even mentioning elder-care.

It's a society issue, not a woman issue..... the couple wants the bigger house, the new hybrid vehicle, etc.....all of which they cannot obtain on a single income. They need two incomes to fulfill their "dreams". Both parties are just as guilty....and it's their children who suffer, grow up with minimal supervision and a skewed view of what is truly important in this life.

...one more thing. When you men are sizing up your prospective spouse....you look at her beauty....and if she catches your eye because she's either voluptuous, blonde or stick thin....you wonder what it is she "does" for a living. Therefore, YOU expect that woman to be gainfully employed.

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Men do not give a fig newton about what a woman does for a living. Maybe it has happened in the history of the universe, but I have never heard of a man gushing to his friends, "and get this - she's a high-powered lawyer/corporate president/brain surgeon!"

I'll make this easy - being a less-than-attractive woman is like being a man: you're going to have to work. Attractive women don't have to.

Really? You never have? I have. Lots of times. In fact, when my dad was telling me about his fiance, he gushed about her job. He was ecstatic to find a woman with a stable career, who made good money and was self-sufficient. He said it was the first time since he had started dating when he was with a woman who didn't know when payday was for him, and didn't care.

Men who love their women tend to be proud of their accomplishments, IME.

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If she were unemployed at age 27, living with and off her parents, I'll bet most of you wouldn't give her a second thought. Be honest with yourselves.

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Ok, let's be really honest with ourselves. Creeping up on 50 years and there's not been one man to fit the bill?

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"For this God is our God forever and ever; He will be our guide, even to the end." Psalm 48:14

Men lately have commitment issues. They simply want to milk the cow and not buy it.

I'll bet you that well over half of those women you claim don't get married in their early years, don't, because the men won't commit. They all have "boyfriends"....but, the men are the ones who don't want to get married right now.

Why marry her, if you are only going to divorce her in a few years, and then have to split your wealth, etc. Many men (even some comments on this forum) treat marriage as a joke or a burden. Believe me, women don't want to be a burden to any man.

This statement would be comically if it weren't so ignorant. Care to explain the current system of no-fault divorce, alimony, and child support?

LOL! You crack me up! I'm talking about marriage, not divorce. I would hope that people get married without the anticipation of an upcoming divorce. ...and IF unfortunately the marriage ends in such a way....then there are laws.

You are aware that not all states have alimony....and those that do....often times men are the recipients. If the woman makes more than her ex-husband then SHE is the one who pays him alimony.

...and let's be honest about men in today's society. You blame the women for going out to work.....this is the downfall of the family. However, that woman who works at the office all day, still is the main childcarer, food preparer and cleaner upper. So, don't think women have it "easier" these days and are shirking their responsibilities. On the contrary, their responsibilities have simply increased....not even mentioning elder-care.

It's a society issue, not a woman issue..... the couple wants the bigger house, the new hybrid vehicle, etc.....all of which they cannot obtain on a single income. They need two incomes to fulfill their "dreams". Both parties are just as guilty....and it's their children who suffer, grow up with minimal supervision and a skewed view of what is truly important in this life.

...one more thing. When you men are sizing up your prospective spouse....you look at her beauty....and if she catches your eye because she's either voluptuous, blonde or stick thin....you wonder what it is she "does" for a living. Therefore, YOU expect that woman to be gainfully employed.

Men do not give a fig newton about what a woman does for a living. Maybe it has happened in the history of the universe, but I have never heard of a man gushing to his friends, "and get this - she's a high-powered lawyer/corporate president/brain surgeon!"

I'll make this easy - being a less-than-attractive woman is like being a man: you're going to have to work. Attractive women don't have to.

So, you also buy in to the notion that in order for the woman to be good wife material she had better be knock out gorgeous.

If she were unemployed at age 27, living with and off her parents, I'll bet most of you wouldn't give her a second thought. Be honest with yourselves.

Ok, let's be really honest with ourselves. Creeping up on 50 years and there's not been one man to fit the bill?

Are you seriously asking me about my personal experiences with men?

Creeping up on 50 is right.....and I still have "high" expectations. That's right....not a SINGLE man fit the bill.

« Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 01:22:19 PM by LizaSymonenko »

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Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

No woman marries a man wanting to be a burden on him. Plenty of women divorce a man wanting to extract revenge on him. And child support? Really?

Yes, really. You may wish to Google "paternity fraud".

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Really? You never have? I have. Lots of times. In fact, when my dad was telling me about his fiance, he gushed about her job. He was ecstatic to find a woman with a stable career, who made good money and was self-sufficient. He said it was the first time since he had started dating when he was with a woman who didn't know when payday was for him, and didn't care.

Well, I cannot comment on the company you keep. My dad never told me about his fiancee because he is still married to his first wife, my mother.

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Men who love their women tend to be proud of their accomplishments, IME.

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

No woman marries a man wanting to be a burden on him. Plenty of women divorce a man wanting to extract revenge on him. And child support? Really?

Yes, really. You may wish to Google "paternity fraud".

Quote

Really? You never have? I have. Lots of times. In fact, when my dad was telling me about his fiance, he gushed about her job. He was ecstatic to find a woman with a stable career, who made good money and was self-sufficient. He said it was the first time since he had started dating when he was with a woman who didn't know when payday was for him, and didn't care.

Well, I cannot comment on the company you keep. My dad never told me about his fiancee because he is still married to his first wife, my mother.

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Men who love their women tend to be proud of their accomplishments, IME.

Accomplishments in important fields like human resources?

LOL. You are wildly entertaining.

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"For this God is our God forever and ever; He will be our guide, even to the end." Psalm 48:14

My experiences were fantastic! Why? Because of my keen understanding of evolutionary biology and sociological dynamics. I am not duped, unlike the women in the article who are clamoring for top men even though their most marriageable years are behind them, or the beta male "nice guys".

In any event, I commend you on your selection of the celibate life, in inadvertent though it may have been. Most people don't have the constitution for it.

So I've just about finished getting dinner ready so it'll be warm when my wife walks in the door. She's coming home late tonight because she takes classes so that she can advance her career. I think it's awesome and fully support her. I'm glad it's 2012.

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

"Nice guys" are beta males? Com'on now....I think that's giving them a little bit too much credit. Speaking as a man, I hate that crap. Ditto the "friend zone" talk from earlier in the thread. What's that? You got shot down (or more likely didn't make a move to begin with) and now you want a handy label to deflect blame for your own failure onto the woman? Boy have I got something you're going to love...!

But on to my real question: Is human resources considered to be (or actually) a female-dominated position? I am outside of the cubicle world (thanks be to God), so I do not understand the reference, though apparently it is quite funny.

So I've just about finished getting dinner ready so it'll be warm when my wife walks in the door. She's coming home late tonight because she takes classes so that she can advance her career. I think it's awesome and fully support her. I'm glad it's 2012.

"Nice guys" are beta males? Com'on now....I think that's giving them a little bit too much credit. Speaking as a man, I hate that crap. Ditto the "friend zone" talk from earlier in the thread. What's that? You got shot down (or more likely didn't make a move to begin with) and now you want a handy label to deflect blame for your own failure onto the woman? Boy have I got something you're going to love...!

But on to my real question: Is human resources considered to be (or actually) a female-dominated position? I am outside of the cubicle world (thanks be to God), so I do not understand the reference, though apparently it is quite funny.

HR is the one thing that women invented. It lets them get paid for being busy bodies.

So I've just about finished getting dinner ready so it'll be warm when my wife walks in the door. She's coming home late tonight because she takes classes so that she can advance her career. I think it's awesome and fully support her. I'm glad it's 2012.

Thank you, I was just about to comment on the glaring prevalence of both griping and chauvenism (expressed by women at that!) on this thread. To put it simply,

stay blessed,habte selassie

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"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10

So I've just about finished getting dinner ready so it'll be warm when my wife walks in the door. She's coming home late tonight because she takes classes so that she can advance her career. I think it's awesome and fully support her. I'm glad it's 2012.

That's nice. Don't let her child-bearing years get away from her.

In civilized countries there is ample maternity leave and related benefits so that the two are no mutually exclusive.

So I've just about finished getting dinner ready so it'll be warm when my wife walks in the door. She's coming home late tonight because she takes classes so that she can advance her career. I think it's awesome and fully support her. I'm glad it's 2012.

That's nice. Don't let her child-bearing years get away from her.

In civilized countries there is ample maternity leave and related benefits so that the two are no mutually exclusive.

ah, the sanctimony of the Left shines through.

How's that birth rate in Ukraine again?

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

"Nice guys" are beta males? Com'on now....I think that's giving them a little bit too much credit. Speaking as a man, I hate that crap. Ditto the "friend zone" talk from earlier in the thread. What's that? You got shot down (or more likely didn't make a move to begin with) and now you want a handy label to deflect blame for your own failure onto the woman? Boy have I got something you're going to love...!

But on to my real question: Is human resources considered to be (or actually) a female-dominated position? I am outside of the cubicle world (thanks be to God), so I do not understand the reference, though apparently it is quite funny.

HR is the one thing that women invented. It lets them get paid for being busy bodies.

Ah. What position should a man apply for if he wants to get paid for doing nothing? Just, y'know...out of curiosity...

So I've just about finished getting dinner ready so it'll be warm when my wife walks in the door. She's coming home late tonight because she takes classes so that she can advance her career. I think it's awesome and fully support her. I'm glad it's 2012.

That's nice. Don't let her child-bearing years get away from her.

In civilized countries there is ample maternity leave and related benefits so that the two are no mutually exclusive.

No amount of legal benefits are going to transform 37 into the same child-bearing age as 24.

So I've just about finished getting dinner ready so it'll be warm when my wife walks in the door. She's coming home late tonight because she takes classes so that she can advance her career. I think it's awesome and fully support her. I'm glad it's 2012.

That's nice. Don't let her child-bearing years get away from her.

In civilized countries there is ample maternity leave and related benefits so that the two are no mutually exclusive.

"Nice guys" are beta males? Com'on now....I think that's giving them a little bit too much credit. Speaking as a man, I hate that crap. Ditto the "friend zone" talk from earlier in the thread. What's that? You got shot down (or more likely didn't make a move to begin with) and now you want a handy label to deflect blame for your own failure onto the woman? Boy have I got something you're going to love...!

But on to my real question: Is human resources considered to be (or actually) a female-dominated position? I am outside of the cubicle world (thanks be to God), so I do not understand the reference, though apparently it is quite funny.

HR is the one thing that women invented. It lets them get paid for being busy bodies.

Ah. What position should a man apply for if he wants to get paid for doing nothing? Just, y'know...out of curiosity...

Become a farmer for a crop that the government says is at surplus. Then, get paid for not growing it.

So I've just about finished getting dinner ready so it'll be warm when my wife walks in the door. She's coming home late tonight because she takes classes so that she can advance her career. I think it's awesome and fully support her. I'm glad it's 2012.

That's nice. Don't let her child-bearing years get away from her.

In civilized countries there is ample maternity leave and related benefits so that the two are no mutually exclusive.

ah, the sanctimony of the Left shines through.

How's that birth rate in Ukraine again?

Ukrainian demographics are a good example of the problems caused by not having good maternity / paternity polices in place and that the issue is more complex than you are willing to admit. But the demographics of Ukraine are the topic of another thread.

In short, I think women look for a truly faithful Orthodox man....because if he is "truly" Orthodox, in every sense, then he would be trustworthy and would have integrity. Believe me, looks aren't even secondary....they fall somewhere at the bottom of the list.

unfortunately I know too many counter examples to your good example Liza.

....and I could easily come back with my own examples, from personal experience with men....that would counter yours.

As for the men with kids conversations....I got to be honest. I always talk to men with kids. To me they seem completely "off limits" and I am free to honestly have a neutral discussion with them. It doesn't mean I am on the "prowl". Perhaps, I should rethink this, and stay away from men with kids altogether....because perhaps they truly do misconstrue my actions....and think I DO have something in mind, when I don't.

This whole men/women thing is just too much!

THANK GOD I am single and happy!!!!! I don't need to play any of these silly games!

which again brings us back the single rate statistics.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

So I've just about finished getting dinner ready so it'll be warm when my wife walks in the door. She's coming home late tonight because she takes classes so that she can advance her career. I think it's awesome and fully support her. I'm glad it's 2012.

That's nice. Don't let her child-bearing years get away from her.

In civilized countries there is ample maternity leave and related benefits so that the two are no mutually exclusive.

ah, the sanctimony of the Left shines through.

How's that birth rate in Ukraine again?

Ukrainian demographics are a good example of the problems caused by not having good maternity / paternity polices in place and that the issue is more complex than you are willing to admit. But the demographics of Ukraine are the topic of another thread.

Not complex at all. One can basically compare the maternity leave of "civilized" countries, and see that they are inversely proportion to their birth rate. Pick your "civilized" country.

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

I don't think I will ever complain about my husband again. Sure, he may have forgotten to take the trash to the curb for the second week in a row, but at least he doesn't treat me like a retarded pet. Or a pretty baby factory.

Logged

"For this God is our God forever and ever; He will be our guide, even to the end." Psalm 48:14

So I've just about finished getting dinner ready so it'll be warm when my wife walks in the door. She's coming home late tonight because she takes classes so that she can advance her career. I think it's awesome and fully support her. I'm glad it's 2012.

That's nice. Don't let her child-bearing years get away from her.

In civilized countries there is ample maternity leave and related benefits so that the two are no mutually exclusive.

ah, the sanctimony of the Left shines through.

How's that birth rate in Ukraine again?

Ukrainian demographics are a good example of the problems caused by not having good maternity / paternity polices in place and that the issue is more complex than you are willing to admit. But the demographics of Ukraine are the topic of another thread.

So maternity/paternity policies were really good until the mid-1990s and then they went to poop?

You guys should move to Zimbabwe. It has the world's highest population growth rate so they must have the world's best maternity leave laws.

I don't think I will ever complain about my husband again. Sure, he may have forgotten to take the trash to the curb for the second week in a row, but at least he doesn't treat me like a retarded pet. Or a pretty baby factory.

You go, girl! You got moxie and you're going places.

Be sure to remind all the managers that mid-year employee reviews are due by 5/15.

So I've just about finished getting dinner ready so it'll be warm when my wife walks in the door. She's coming home late tonight because she takes classes so that she can advance her career. I think it's awesome and fully support her. I'm glad it's 2012.

That's nice. Don't let her child-bearing years get away from her.

In civilized countries there is ample maternity leave and related benefits so that the two are no mutually exclusive.

No amount of legal benefits are going to transform 37 into the same child-bearing age as 24.

By the way, care to explain your wisecrack about mama-san?

You keep referring to "child bearing" age. Is that all that women are good for in your eyes?

What about the couple who marries young and remain childless. What of them?

Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

Kids are quite observant; they pick up tone of voice, body language, and in general what is going on in their homes. What they see affects them, some are resilient and turn out to be decent human beings even growing up in the worst possible environments, yet others are not so lucky. IMHO The best gift two parents can give their kids is to love one another, in the wholesome definition of love and what it entails in it through all circumstances of life.

Amen!

When my oldest son wasn't even a year old, he used to smile when I kissed his mother, my then wife, good-bye. She was always dumbfounded:"how does he know?"

When that ended, he was busy trying, at the age of 4, to set me up: his solution to life at the time was that I find a nice lady, get married, and then his mother could die.

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

I don't think I will ever complain about my husband again. Sure, he may have forgotten to take the trash to the curb for the second week in a row, but at least he doesn't treat me like a retarded pet. Or a pretty baby factory.

You go, girl! You got moxie and you're going places.

Be sure to remind all the managers that mid-year employee reviews are due by 5/15.

Thank God you reminded me! It's so hard to keep a thought in this silly head of mine. I'll get that e-mail right out.

Logged

"For this God is our God forever and ever; He will be our guide, even to the end." Psalm 48:14

So I've just about finished getting dinner ready so it'll be warm when my wife walks in the door. She's coming home late tonight because she takes classes so that she can advance her career. I think it's awesome and fully support her. I'm glad it's 2012.

That's nice. Don't let her child-bearing years get away from her.

In civilized countries there is ample maternity leave and related benefits so that the two are no mutually exclusive.

No amount of legal benefits are going to transform 37 into the same child-bearing age as 24.

By the way, care to explain your wisecrack about mama-san?

You keep referring to "child bearing" age. Is that all that women are good for in your eyes?

What about the couple who marries young and remain childless. What of them?

Sauron was just referring to the biological clock which goes off and then, as he put it, someone is supposed to "man up" and save the woman from her own choices. Nothing more. Not at least than I can see.

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

So I've just about finished getting dinner ready so it'll be warm when my wife walks in the door. She's coming home late tonight because she takes classes so that she can advance her career. I think it's awesome and fully support her. I'm glad it's 2012.

That's nice. Don't let her child-bearing years get away from her.

In civilized countries there is ample maternity leave and related benefits so that the two are no mutually exclusive.

No amount of legal benefits are going to transform 37 into the same child-bearing age as 24.

By the way, care to explain your wisecrack about mama-san?

You keep referring to "child bearing" age. Is that all that women are good for in your eyes?

What about the couple who marries young and remain childless. What of them?

And what about adopting? There are tons of overflowing orphanages here

So I've just about finished getting dinner ready so it'll be warm when my wife walks in the door. She's coming home late tonight because she takes classes so that she can advance her career. I think it's awesome and fully support her. I'm glad it's 2012.

That's nice. Don't let her child-bearing years get away from her.

In civilized countries there is ample maternity leave and related benefits so that the two are no mutually exclusive.

No amount of legal benefits are going to transform 37 into the same child-bearing age as 24.

By the way, care to explain your wisecrack about mama-san?

You keep referring to "child bearing" age. Is that all that women are good for in your eyes?

What about the couple who marries young and remain childless. What of them?

Sauron was just referring to the biological clock which goes off and then, as he put it, someone is supposed to "man up" and save the woman from her own choices. Nothing more. Not at least than I can see.

So a woman's life has been wasted if she didn't have a baby, is that it?

....and now that her biological clock has run out, she needs to be rescued.

Rescued from what?

Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

You keep referring to "child bearing" age. Is that all that women are good for in your eyes?

No, but it is an important factor. Believe it or not, most people marry, in part, for procreation. As a consequence, most men wish for their wives to be fertile.

Ok...you are now talking in circles.

So, if the woman is no longer of child bearing age....why do you worry and state that men have to come to her rescue?

Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

I don't think I will ever complain about my husband again. Sure, he may have forgotten to take the trash to the curb for the second week in a row, but at least he doesn't treat me like a retarded pet. Or a pretty baby factory.

You go, girl! You got moxie and you're going places.

Be sure to remind all the managers that mid-year employee reviews are due by 5/15.

LOL. That would have been my 18th anniversary.

My ex complained how I remembered all our anniversaries with flowers, and other such cruelties. Her next husband (whom she married twice) married her for a green card, after he had been arrested for beating her (including biting her face). Her friends laughed when I wondered once if he brought her flowers on her anniversary at work like I did. It turns out, he didn't even bring her flowers on their "wedding."

so I guess there is someone for everyone. So take heart.

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth