BentElbow11 wrote:IMO, two of the nicest plastics are DGA's Proline and Sparkle. Somehow superior to ESP and Elite Z counterparts. Proline is glossier and more durable than ESP, and Sparkle is much better than most Elite Z, more like a really good Opto.

That reminds me, there was this one Proline Hurricane that we got as a tester disc, and while admittedly it flew like shit (I think we just got a crap one), the plastic was just unbelievable. It wasn't particularly grippy, but man was it the toughest thing ever. We wanted to try and get some understability into the disc to see if it made it fly any better, and must have blasted it into the tarmac at full tilt some 100+ times. Nothing. Nothing changed in the flight. It got some very minor scratching, but that's it.

That plastic stands out as the most durable blend I've ever witnessed out of any premium plastic. =)

Proline's definitely a different blend than Discraft's ESP, the high gloss finish is the first indication. I have a tie-dye Tsunami and a Squall, which sound like the Hurricane you described.

I'd include Legacy's Legend line of plastics in the running behind Prodiscus and Prodigy. Legend is not a grippy as Prodigy or as durable as Prodiscus but I prefer Legend's slightly gummy feel and equally sexy swirly pearly looks to Lat64's glopto runs.

As for base lines, I'm digging my Classic Judge and Zero Hard Mace. Lat64 has it right with a firm yet grippy feel but some colors are less chalky than others. I had no problems in the hot and humid delta this summer so I loaded up on Judges so when Lat/DD changes the resin mix to some crap and I need some more I'll be too old to care.

Now that i think of it i have not blasted the Pro Beasts at close ranges at full power often. I do drive with them on a rocky course but not on many holes. The Beast is good enoughvto let me avoid first available obstacles pretty well

Stiff old P PD 158 DGR stamp lasted in main driver role that means not flippy for almost a summer but it is short here so four months or a little more. Definitely way more than ten throws. Another one lasted as long.

Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.

That sounds about right. Innova drivers in Pro plastic used to last me a couple months before they became so dinged up and had lost enough stability that they became unreliable. I switched to Champ/Elite Z/Opto, etc and have never looked back. The difference is years vs months.

JR wrote:Stiff old P PD 158 DGR stamp lasted in main driver role that means not flippy for almost a summer but it is short here so four months or a little more. Definitely way more than ten throws. Another one lasted as long.

In contrast, my springy P-PDs were in my bag as my main drivers for two seasons, and I even purposefully tried to beat one of them to be more understable (this was during the period where PD were my only drivers). The max weight one is still overstable, as overstable as a brand new max weight MOLF, and more overstable than the milky white QOLF I got (though I know that one is a dud). It's not far from a normal S-PD. =)

Parks wrote:If the posts on this forum are any indication, the PD is like a Teebird with sunshine coming out of its butthole so hard that it flies faster.

JR wrote:Stiff old P PD 158 DGR stamp lasted in main driver role that means not flippy for almost a summer but it is short here so four months or a little more. Definitely way more than ten throws. Another one lasted as long.

In contrast, my springy P-PDs were in my bag as my main drivers for two seasons, and I even purposefully tried to beat one of them to be more understable (this was during the period where PD were my only drivers). The max weight one is still overstable, as overstable as a brand new max weight MOLF, and more overstable than the milky white QOLF I got (though I know that one is a dud). It's not far from a normal S-PD. =)

Well, the P-PD and MOLF are the same plastic, 'M' is Pro. Are you also saying that you couldn't beat up the plastic on that P-PD? Because after 2 years, with any kind of regular use, I can't imagine any variation of Innova Pro plastic not being fairly battered. If it's a harder blend of Pro, and max weight, then it's understandable that at least the stability might hold up longer. What? Are C-PD's glideless and therefore undesirable in that role?

My springy 168 p pd got sliced quickly and got understable later but quickly. A max weight did not last much longer way less than with the stiff 158. But i tossed them at a rocky course too. But there are only a few holes i needed them on so the outer edge did not get chewed up badly. They are fine on grassy courses. Pro Beast has endured way more time and rounds and rock landings without trouble on the same course. My only MOLF was 165 and it was g4 plastic variation and it beat in super quickly. Weeks only.

Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.

JR wrote:My springy 168 p pd got sliced quickly and got understable later but quickly. A max weight did not last much longer way less than with the stiff 158. But i tossed them at a rocky course too. But there are only a few holes i needed them on so the outer edge did not get chewed up badly. They are fine on grassy courses. Pro Beast has endured way more time and rounds and rock landings without trouble on the same course. My only MOLF was 165 and it was g4 plastic variation and it beat in super quickly. Weeks only.

Where in Europe are you? I'm in California, land of boulders. Courses here, for the most part, are not grassy, but dirt, rocks(big and small), and at least somewhat wooded. Then there are the forested mountain courses in Northern California, some at 2000m(6000 ft) and above. It's not easy on discs.

Finland where many courses are in parks in cities or the woods so grass and trees. But there are some notable exceptions like the course that is closest to me. That is around old ski jumping hills and is almost all rocks.

Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.

Ok, I've seen enough Finland videos to make me envious of all that nice green grass. I can see how a Pro Beast might stay pretty unmarked if used on grass courses. Where I typically play, the destruction begins with the first throw.

Too bad that some softer blends of Champ last less than driver hard blend Pro. Or many Star blends. The line of resisting rock damage with medium to prime plastic is blurred. For me Opto is unusable in drivers and too quickly damaging in mids on that rocky course. The reason is that it is so hard that it is brittle enough to get breaking glass like fractures on the first rock hit for a large enough area to quickly ruin the disc in all rock courses. Which is why i use different discs on different courses and for tackiness prefer gl and discs from other manufacturers. Lat is not too common in my bag even though i have and do use some of them occasionally. I like the judge and will try the non bead version once it arrives and for bad conditions soft Judge is tremendous for grip but it broke in fast. I got a gbo gl Judge but it is too slick when moist in 50 F let alone in the winter.

Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.

I've never seen that with Champion vs Pro. I have a softer gummy champ Teebird that has held up fine over time. As for Opto, even more so. I have an Opto Vision that has seen tons of use as a medium-long driver and for fairway shots for 3+ years and is still virtually unmarked with no hangnails or gouges. I was just showing it to a couple playing buddies the other day and they were amazed, considering the history and heavy use they've seen it go through on courses.

Anyway, it's a matter of preference regarding plastics and to each his own.

BentElbow11 wrote:Well, the P-PD and MOLF are the same plastic, 'M' is Pro. Are you also saying that you couldn't beat up the plastic on that P-PD? Because after 2 years, with any kind of regular use, I can't imagine any variation of Innova Pro plastic not being fairly battered. If it's a harder blend of Pro, and max weight, then it's understandable that at least the stability might hold up longer. What? Are C-PD's glideless and therefore undesirable in that role?

Yeah, well aware that Millennium is Pro, as is P-Line. =)

The stiff ones are the ones that beat in instantly, and consistently so far, I'd assume it's because Pro inherently isn't as durable as premium plastics are, and the stiffness prevents it from absorbing the shocks and bouncing back. The springy ones really seem to absorb the knocks and spring back to original shape much much better.

I did manage to beat in one to handle my understable duties (it still wasn't "flippy", just controllably understable, and always came back at the end), I did the beating by throwing a lot of thumbers with it during normal play. The ones I didn't beat in like that though retained their stability very nicely over the two season stint as my main drivers. The max weight one is still nearly as overstable as my old S-PDs, and the lighter one had a bit of turn from the start and is still a very nice Eagle type disc (they're no longer in active use because I want to preserve them as baseline comparison discs when buying new ones, but I still take them out of a field occasionally). Dunno what to say, they've lasted incredibly well. I also have a P-PD2 in that blend and it started out very nearly as overstable as my CFR C-PD2s, and despite me abusing it as a spike hyzer and thumber disc for a year I can still count on it to not turn into a headwind. If they could do that blend consistently I would seriously consider switching many of my current drivers (a mix of S and C) to P-Line ones, because the feel is so nice and they glide better.

As for C-PDs, the ones I use are flat CFRs which are almost Firebird overstable, and indeed don't glide well. But really, I've moved on from only using PDs as my drivers, my primary line up now consists of S and C-FDs, S-TDs, S and C-PDs, P and S-DD2s (usually, occasionally I switch those out for a LEGENDa or two), and a FR Premium RESPECTi and GL Stiletto for utility purposes. The all-PD lineup did fill its purpose though, a beat light P-PD for understable shots, a light'ish P-PD for Eagle type lineshaping (mostly used it for straight shots), a max weight P-PD for a bit of overstability, S-PDs for a bit more overstability, and CFR C-PDs for a LOT of overstability. Got good results with that, but as soon as I really noticed that the springy P-PDs would be hard to replace if lost or beaten too much (it'll obviously happen eventually, no matter what you do), I switched them out and started using other, more readily available discs.

BentElbow11 wrote:Ok, I've seen enough Finland videos to make me envious of all that nice green grass.

You've seen ones from pretty selected locations then. We don't have a lot of grass around here. What we have is trees, hard packed dirt, tarmac and the occasional large rock. Sure there's some grass, but you need to be accurate to hit it. And next year when a new course opens closer to me it won't have anything other than trees, moss and rocks. =)

Parks wrote:If the posts on this forum are any indication, the PD is like a Teebird with sunshine coming out of its butthole so hard that it flies faster.

BentElbow11 wrote:Well, the P-PD and MOLF are the same plastic, 'M' is Pro. Are you also saying that you couldn't beat up the plastic on that P-PD? Because after 2 years, with any kind of regular use, I can't imagine any variation of Innova Pro plastic not being fairly battered. If it's a harder blend of Pro, and max weight, then it's understandable that at least the stability might hold up longer. What? Are C-PD's glideless and therefore undesirable in that role?

Yeah, well aware that Millennium is Pro, as is P-Line. =)

The stiff ones are the ones that beat in instantly, and consistently so far, I'd assume it's because Pro inherently isn't as durable as premium plastics are, and the stiffness prevents it from absorbing the shocks and bouncing back. The springy ones really seem to absorb the knocks and spring back to original shape much much better.

I did manage to beat in one to handle my understable duties (it still wasn't "flippy", just controllably understable, and always came back at the end), I did the beating by throwing a lot of thumbers with it during normal play. The ones I didn't beat in like that though retained their stability very nicely over the two season stint as my main drivers. The max weight one is still nearly as overstable as my old S-PDs, and the lighter one had a bit of turn from the start and is still a very nice Eagle type disc (they're no longer in active use because I want to preserve them as baseline comparison discs when buying new ones, but I still take them out of a field occasionally). Dunno what to say, they've lasted incredibly well. I also have a P-PD2 in that blend and it started out very nearly as overstable as my CFR C-PD2s, and despite me abusing it as a spike hyzer and thumber disc for a year I can still count on it to not turn into a headwind. If they could do that blend consistently I would seriously consider switching many of my current drivers (a mix of S and C) to P-Line ones, because the feel is so nice and they glide better.

As for C-PDs, the ones I use are flat CFRs which are almost Firebird overstable, and indeed don't glide well. But really, I've moved on from only using PDs as my drivers, my primary line up now consists of S and C-FDs, S-TDs, S and C-PDs, P and S-DD2s (usually, occasionally I switch those out for a LEGENDa or two), and a FR Premium RESPECTi and GL Stiletto for utility purposes. The all-PD lineup did fill its purpose though, a beat light P-PD for understable shots, a light'ish P-PD for Eagle type lineshaping (mostly used it for straight shots), a max weight P-PD for a bit of overstability, S-PDs for a bit more overstability, and CFR C-PDs for a LOT of overstability. Got good results with that, but as soon as I really noticed that the springy P-PDs would be hard to replace if lost or beaten too much (it'll obviously happen eventually, no matter what you do), I switched them out and started using other, more readily available discs.

BentElbow11 wrote:Ok, I've seen enough Finland videos to make me envious of all that nice green grass.

You've seen ones from pretty selected locations then. We don't have a lot of grass around here. What we have is trees, hard packed dirt, tarmac and the occasional large rock. Sure there's some grass, but you need to be accurate to hit it. And next year when a new course opens closer to me it won't have anything other than trees, moss and rocks. =)

Ok, understood.

Tarmac? But, you're right, the DG videos out of Finland I've seen are of tourneys and recorded casual rounds at green grass park-like courses.

Re Opto durability: There are 2 types of Opto that I've seen. The superb almost transparent Opto, and the opaque Opto with more color. The latter is inferior in both feel and durability, IMO.

Champion seems to come in stiff-hard, gummy-soft, and pearly-somewhat soft. The pearly Champion are the best of current Champion blends, IMO...regardless of the mold. Lately, however, Innova has been putting out a Champion blend that is almost clear like the best Opto(Tern, Beast, Roc3, Shark3, Mako3).

I haven't come across super stiff Pro, but some Pro I've thrown is softer, almost like R-Pro. I have had super stiff DX and Pro D, and they damage easily with fairly large dents appearing along the edge.