"There is no idea of far away from the goal or nearer to the
goal." This is very important. When you [are] involved in selfish
practice, there is, you know-you have some idea of attainment. And
when you have-you strive for to attain enlightenment or to reach
the goal, you have naturally, "We are far away"-you know, idea of,
"We are far away from the goal." Or, "We are almost there," you
know. Gonnon: "near" or "far away."

But if you really practice our way, enlightenment is there.
Mmm. Maybe this is rather difficult to accept [laughs], you
know. When you practice zazen without any idea of attainment, there
is actually enlightenment. Or you may understand in this way like
Dogen-zenji explained: In our selfish practice there is
enlightenment and there is practice. Practice and enlightenment is
two-a pair of opposite idea. But when we realize-when we understand
our practice and enlightenment as an event in realm of great dharma
world, enlightenment and practice is two event which appears in a
great dharma world. The both practice and enlightenment is also
events, you know, which will have-which many events in our life or
in our dharma world. When we understand in that way, enlightenment
is one of the event which symbolize the dharma world, and practice
is also an event which symbolize our big dharma world. So there is-
If both symbolize or express or suggest the big dharma world, you
know, actually we sh- [partial word], there is no need for us to be
discouraged because we do not attain enlightenment or why we
should be extremely happy with our enlightenment. Actually there is
no difference. Both has equal value.

So enlightenment- If enlightenment is important, practice is
also important. We cannot evaluate which is good or bad. When we
understand in this way, in each step we have enlightenment. Even
though we have enlightenment, you know, there will not be no need
to be excited with it. And step by step we will continue endless
practice, appreciating the dharma world-bliss of dharma world. That
is so-called-it "practice based on enlightenment"-a practice beyond
our experience of good and bad, a practice which is beyond our
selfish practice.

Last night, he [Sekito] said, "Whatever you see, if you," you
know, "that is- Whatever you see, that is dao." Unless you
don't understand in that way, you will not-even though you practice
our practice you will-the practice not work. And tonight, you know,
in this line he says, "If you," you know, "practice our way in its
true sense, there is no problem of, 'We are almost there' or 'We
are far away from the point'," it is said. Beginners' practice and
great Zen masters' practice are not different. But if you [are]
involved in selfish practice, then that is delusion. Mayote
senga no ko wo hedatsu. If you practice deluded practice, if
you practice our way, you know, in dualistic sense-practice and
enlightenment-then there is barrier or difficulties of mountain and
river-crossing river or mountain: Senga no ko: This is
"mountain"; this is "river"; this is "difficulties." [Suzuki-roshi
is presumed to be pointing to characters on blackboard.] You will
be, you know, you will have-you will be separated from the
dao by the difficulties of crossing mountain and river:
Mayote senga no ko wo hedatsu.

And next line is Tsutsushin de sangen no hito ni mosu.
Tsutsushin de is "most respectfully" or "reverently." "I
tell all the seekers of the way." Sangen no hito means
"seekers of the truth." San is like sanzen, like
sanpai? [1]Sanzen means, you know, "to visit Zen masters." San.
Gen is "profound teaching." Hito means "man." So "to
visit profound teaching" or "to study profound teaching"-"those who
study profound teaching." "I say this much to the people who want
to visit the real teacher." Gen is, you know,
"profound"-"profound teaching."

Koin munashiku wataru koto nakare. Koin means
"sunbeam" or "day and night." Ko is "beam"-"sunbeam"; and
in means "shadow." And koin-this is one
word-koin means "day and night" or "time."
Munashiku-"don't"-wataru is "to spend" or "to
cross"-"to pass." "Not"-nakare is "not." Munashiku is
"in vain." Wataru is "to pass." "Don't pass day and night
without doing anything" or "in vain."

To, you know, to pass day and night in vain does not mean only
to, you know, goof off [laughs] without doing anything. It is-that
is maybe, you know, one way of [laughs] passing the day and night
without doing anything [laughs], but it does not mean, you know,
such a-what he [Sekito] means is more profound: Even though you,
you know, work very hard, sometime you may be, you know, passing
your day and-valuable time without doing anything, we say so. If
you don't know what you are doing [laughs], or he is passing his
time in vain, he may say, "No, I am striving very hard to
make my saving account [laughs] ten thousand dollars" [laughs], but
to us, you know, it is just spending his time in vain. It doesn't
make much sense [laughs].

Even though you, you know, work hard in Tassajara, you know, in
work period, it doesn't mean-it does not mean you are, you know-it
does not always mean you are spending your time
properly-doing something properly [laughs]. Mmm. [Laughs.]
What does it mean then [laughs]? If you goof off [laughs]
you are also, you know, wasting your time. Even though you work
hard, maybe you are, you know, spending your time in vain. This is
maybe a kind of koan for you [laughs].

Do you know what does it mean, "Every day is good day"?
[Laughs.] "Every day is good day." This is famous, you know, koan.
"Every day is good day." It does not mean, you know, don't make
complaint even though you have some difficulties: "Even though it
is hot, you shouldn't complain. Even though it is cold, you
shouldn't complain. Whatever happened, you shouldn't complain." It
does not mean, you know, something like that.

"Every day is good day." What it means [is], "Don't," you know,
"spend your time in vain." I think most people are spending
their time in vain. If he say, "No, I am always busy." But if he
say so [laughs], it is sure sign of [laughs] his spending time in
vain.

Most people do things, you know, as he know what he is doing,
with some purpose. But even so, I don't think they are doing things
with proper understanding of their activity. I think still he may
be doing things in vain. When you do something with usual purpose,
which is based on some evaluation, or useful or useless, or good or
bad, valuable or less valuable-that is, you know, not perfect
understanding. You know, if you do things whether it is good or
bad, you know, or successful or unsuccessful, out of question.
Because you feel you should do them, then that is real
practice. Not because of Buddha or because of yourself, or because
of the true, or because of for yourself or for others. If you do
things for the things, that is true way.

Mmm. I cannot explain so well. Maybe I shouldn't explain
so much [laughs]. You shouldn't do things just because you feel
good, or you shouldn't stop doing things just [because] you don't
feel so good. Whether you feel good or bad, there is something
which you should do. Unless-if you don't have this kind of
feeling-if you don't understand this kind of feeling-of doing
things, you know, whether it is right or wrong, or good or bad-if
you don't understand this kind of feeling, you are not yet started
our way in its true sense.

I don't know why, you know, I am [laughs] in Tassajara [laughs].
Not for you or for myself, or not even for Buddha or for Buddhism.
I am just here [laughs]. I cannot- You know, I don't feel so good
if-even when I think I have to leave Tassajara in two-three weeks,
I don't feel so good. I don't know why [laughs.] I don't think that
is just because you are my students. I don't think so. I do not
have any particular person whom I love so much [laughs]. I don't
know why I have to be there. I have not much attachment to
Tassajara. It is not because of I attach to Tassajara.

Hmm. Anyway, I am not seek [partial word]-I am not, you
know, expecting anything in future or in term of monastery or
Buddhism. But I don't want to, you know, live-I don't want to live
in the air. I want to be right here. I want to stand on my feet,
you know. The only way to stand on my feet is when I am Tassajara I
should be at Tassajara [laughs]. That is the reason why, you know,
I am here. I want to be here. That is the most important thing for
me: to stand on my feet and to sit on my black cushion. I don't
trust anything but [laughs] my feet or my black cushion. This is my
friend, always. My feet is always my friend. When I am in bed, my
bed is my friend. There is no Buddha, or no Buddhism, or no zazen.
If, you know, you ask me, "What is zazen?" you know, my answer will
be, "To sit on black cushion is zazen," or "To walk with my feet is
my zazen." To stay at this moment on this place is my zazen. There
is no other zazen.

When I am really standing on my feet I am, you know, not lost.
So, for me, that is, you know, nirvana, for me. So there is
no need to travel, to cross, you know, mountain or river, for me. I
am right here on the dharma world. So I have no difficulty to cross
mountain and river. That is how, you know, we do not waste our
time. Moment after moment we should live on this moment, right
here, without sacrificing this moment for the future.

At Sekito's time, there were, you know, naturally, you know,
especially Zen Buddhism is very poliminous [polemical], you know.
The background of the teaching is always some discussion or a kind
of fight. Especially in Chinese Buddhism you can see this kind of
context in their teaching. And talking about various way of
practice and various way of understanding of Zen. They were lost in
dispute [laughs]. There were many schools of Zen. But because they
were involved in some kind of right teaching or wrong teaching, or
traditional teaching or some heretical teaching (heresy), they lost
their main point of practice. So that is why he says, "Don't spend
your time in vain," sacrificing their actual practice for some
idealistic, you know, practice, to attain some perfection of what
kind of understanding is traditional understanding told by the
Sixth Patriarch-compiling, you know, Sutra of Sixth
Patriarch in their own way [laughs], and [saying], "This is the
Sixth Patriarch's way. Those who do not have this book is not," you
know, "the descendant of the Sixth Patriarch." This kind of, you
know, understanding of Zen were prevail [prevalent] at that time.
That is why he says, "Don't," you know, "I reverently say to the
seekers of the profound way, don't spend your time in vain." It is,
you know-what it means is very profound. Without being, you know,
caught by some idea, you know, some selfish understanding or
practice or teaching-to follow right practice is our way. [Tape
turned. Sentence completed.]

This kind of practice is called "polishing tile practice"
[laughs]. Tile. "To polish tile practice." Usually, people may
polish a mirror, you know, because if you polish it, you know, it
will be a clear, good mirror, you know. To have clea- [partial
word]- Why you polish it is to have clear surface of the mirror.
But if someone start polish a tile [laughs], you know- For the
people who understand why we polish a mirror is to have a
mirror-like complete, you know, shiny surface of it. So if someone
start to polish a tile, you may laughed at him.

So to polish tile is-to make good tile is to polish tile. And to
polish mirror is to have actual mirror is why we polish a mirror.
[Someone may say,] "Oh, this is just a tile. It cannot be a
mirror." You know, that is the practice [of those] who easily give
up their practice because he thinks, you know, "Anyway, I cannot be
a good [laughs] Zen student. It may be better to give up without
polishing it, without sitting zazen." Without realizing, tile is,
you know, valuable-sometime much more valuable than a mirror,
because a mirror is too expensive for the roofing [laughs]. No one
can, you know, afford to make a roof by mirror. Tile is very good
for to make our roof. So tile is also important, as mirror is
important to see, to look yourself into it. That is "tile-polishing
practice." Mazen, we say.

As you know, there is a famous story[2] between Baso,[3] the grandson of the Sixth Patriarch,
and Nangaku,[4] a
disciple of the Sixth Patriarch. Baso, you know, was practicing
zazen. Nangaku, the teacher-who passed, you know, by-asked him,
"What are you doing?" "I am practicing zazen to be a buddha." "Ah,
that's very nice of you" [laughs, laughter], "trying to be a
Buddha." And the teacher [Nangaku] picked up a tile and started to
polish it [laughs].

So Baso asked him, you know, with some curiosity, "What are you
doing?" [laughs, laughter]. He [Nangaku] said, "I want to make this
tile a mirror." [Laughs.] And the disciple Baso asked him whether
it is possible to, you know, make tile a mirror. He [Nangaku] said,
"Well [laughs], you said," you know, "you are practicing zazen to
be a buddha, but buddha is not always someone who attained
enlightenment. Everyone is buddha. Whether they attained
enlightenment or not, they are buddha." "You said, 'To be a
buddha,' but to be a buddha sometime means to practice-" His
[Baso's], you know, answer was, "I want to be a buddha by
practicing-by sitting practice." And so he said-teacher [Nangaku]
said, "You said, 'practice in sitting position.' But Zen is not,"
you know, "always-to sit in sitting position is not Zen always.
Whatever you do, that will be zazen."

So he was lost, you know. Baso was lost. "Then what will be the
appropriate practice?" [he asked]. And so he explained-he asked
without explaining to him, he asked, "If a cart does not go," you
know, "which would be the appropriate way: to hit a cart or to hit
a horse?" [Laughs.] "Which will be the appropriate [way]?" But he
couldn't answer because the disciple Baso was still involved in
practice to attain something.

So he [Nangaku] continued the explanation of the practice. In
short, I cannot translate it literally, but what he said was, "If
you think [by] whipping a cart or horse, you can," you know, "drive
a cart is [you are] wrong, because cart and horse actually is not
separated, is one." To whip a horse means to whip a cart, you know.
And if you whip on cart, naturally horse will go [laughs], because
they are one.

So to practice and enlightenment is one, like a cart and horse
is one. So if you, you know, practice actually physical practice,
as a practice, that is also enlightenment. And that you practice
Buddha's practice, of course, that is enlightenment. But actually
that is practice too. We call practice based on enlightenment is
"real practice which has no end." We call enlightenment which
started with practice, which is one with practice, is
"beginningless enlightenment," because, you know, if someone start
practice, there is enlightenment. Where there is practice there is
enlightenment. Where there is enlightenment there is also practice.
There is no enlightenment without practice. If you don't stay on
this spot realizing your position, then you are not practicing our
way. So if you are wasting your time or if you are trying to
sacrifice your present practice for future attainment, that is not
real practice.

Sekito actually was the direct disciple of the Sixth Patriarch.
He knew the Sixth Patriarch's way-practice very well. So when
Kataku Jinne [5] and
his disciples started to denounce the Northern school of
Jinshu,[6] he
[Sekito] felt bad about them attaching to some, you know, idea, and
denouncing, you know, superficially, without realizing what is real
practice. (The Hoku-shu Zen[7] [was] Jinshu's practice.)

This kind of-this understanding is extended-succeeded by Dogen
in Japan, and Dogen extended his idea more widely and not just, you
know, logically but more emotional way-more, with more feeling and
more poetic way through his tenacious, you know, thinking mind.

So some people may say Sandokai is not so good, you know,
because it is so philosophical. [Laughs.] It may be so, you know,
if you don't understand the background of his [Sekito's] teaching,
and if your mind does not penetrate through his words. We say to
read back of the paper, you know, not printed characters,
but the other side of the book. You may feel in that way. But this
is actually very important, you know, work-Sandokai.

Do you have some questions?

Question/Answer Session

Suzuki-roshi:Hai.

Student A: I don't understand all the vows we make.

Suzuki-roshi:Mmm? Vow?

Student A: Well, I understand what you said tonight, but,
you know, in the light of what you say, you know, I don't
understand all the vows and stuff. Like, if there's no sentient
beings to save, why do we say how we "vow to save sentient beings?"
It seems like a big joke to me.

Suzuki-roshi: [Laughs.] Because your practice is, you
know, always confined in realm of, you know, why we practice zazen.
What does it mean, by your practice. Anyway, actually, you are
practicing very good. Why do you practice your practice so good?
[Laughs.] I don't understand. [Laughs.]

Student A: It doesn't feel very good to me.

Suzuki-roshi: [Laughs.] Yeah. Anyway, you are doing well.
[Laughs, laughter.] Because, maybe, because I give lectures, you
know, my lecture will, you know, will be some enticement [laughs,
laughter]. May be better not to hear my lecture-just practice
zazen.

Student A: I don't mind zazen so much, but I kind
of-I don't like to make promises that I don't understand.

Suzuki-roshi: "Make promise." Our promise, you know: If
sentient beings are number [partial word]-numerous, you know,
numberless, or desires are numberless-sentient beings are numerous,
you know, it is-you cannot say, "I vow to save them" or "I
vow to put an end to them." It is, you know, it is very
silly. It doesn't make any sense [laughs]. This is true. I agree
with you. It doesn't make any sense.

But still you do it. Why? You don't feel so good if you
don't work for others. Our practice is not just to s [partial
word]- We say, you know, we make four vows just, you know, in that
way. But what we really means is more than that. But tentatively or
for sake of sake of convenience, we, you know, say in that way just
four.

But I feel in this way, really, truly, you know, it is lucky
that we have, you know, inexhaustible desires and numerous sentient
beings to save. And each of them is almost impossible to save them
in term of, you know, "I save you" [laughs]. You cannot save in
that way. But whether it is possible or not, to continue this kind
of practice is our vow. Anyway, whether it is possible or not, out
of question. Whether this is Buddhist way, or Bodhisattva's way, or
Hinayana way, or Mahayana way is out of question. Anyhow, do
it! That is our vow.

Student A: When I-I mean, when I don't- It seems
cheating, you know. I mean, when I promise to do something, it
seems, you know, I need to have some meaning. If it doesn't have
any meaning, I won't say it. If it doesn't have any meaning to me,
I can't say it.

Suzuki-roshi: Your arrogance. That is your arrogance.

Student A: I don't know. Maybe. But-

Suzuki-roshi: Even though you cry, that cry doesn't make
any sense. You're still-your practice is still based on some
selfish practice. You don't give up yourself. You have to suffer
more and fight more with yourself. With yourself. No one to
fight with-nothing to fight with. Fight with your selfish practice
until you give up. That is most important point for real
students. You shouldn't fool yourself. He doesn't want to be
fooled by our teaching, or Zen, or something like that. That is
right. You shouldn't [be] fooled by anything.

Student A: Well, what do I do at the end of lecture? I
can't-I- You know, everybody will say the four vows, and I
won't believe them. I-

Suzuki-roshi: You don't have to believe in [them]
literally, you know. Because various teachers and numerous people,
you know, repeat it in that way, that is why you should do it.
That's all. If, you know, they are cheating themselves, you know,
you should be cheated, you should be fooled by it with all
sentient beings. That you cannot do that means you want to be some
special person. That is good, you know. That much spirit we should
have. But the answer is, you know, that is not the way. You know,
answer is very cold. Cannot be sympathetic with your, you know,
practice. Some great teacher will give you some candy. Go and get
candy.

Student A: It's not like that, Roshi. I mean, I
just-maybe part of it is, but I still don't understand. I
feel very-I don't feel right. Even if the whole world is fooled, if
there is something I don't believe, or I don't understand-

Suzuki-roshi: "You don't understand." How much
truth you can understand by your small mind? And you should know
the limit of your thinking mind.

Student A: But- I forget-

Suzuki-roshi: What you see, you know, actually, you see
various color, but how many colors do you see by your eyes?

Student A: But I can't-

Suzuki-roshi: How much sound you can hear? You only
think, you know- Your thinking mind works dualistic only. You have
no words to explain this kind of reality, you know. If you
understand our teaching through those characters, it is almost
impossible. This is just suggestion. You see? So because you stick
to my words, or by scriptures, or you think scriptures should be
something perfect, more convincing- You think in that way, but
first of all, you know, we have to confess what I'm talking is not
right. What I'm saying is not always true. I am suggesting
something more than that. That's all. So to, you know- That is
even- Not only Buddhism, but Confucius says, you know, "If it is,"
you know- "If someone want to fool you," you know, "you should be
fooled by him." That is very important.

Student A: Even though practice is greater than words,
still, in the small world of words, I don't feel strong enough yet
to be inconsistent, you know. I don't feel that I can say, "Well, I
don't see that light there," you know, because I do. I mean,
it may be ignorance or something, but it seems like it's there to
me. And in order to be kind of what I feel is straight or clear- If
I say to you, "I don't see that lamp, Roshi," then something funny
happens inside of me, you know. And sometimes that same funny thing
happens when I say the vows, because I think, "Oh, okay, I vow to
save all sentient beings." But then something is going on inside
me, you know. There aren't any [2-3 words unintelligible]-

Suzuki-roshi: Yeah, I understand that. You know, we
priest always put our hand together when you eat. How many times
you put your hand together, you know. How many times you put your
hand together in Tassajara, you know? I didn't like it at all, you
know. I felt as if I am fooling myself [laughs], and, you know, I
didn't feel so good. But as I had to, you know, I did it, that's
all. But now I understand, you know, because I understand
how foolish I am. I have not much strong spirit [laughs] as I had
before. So I understand. But still, you know, truth is
truth. I cannot agree with you now. Maybe if I were to be
your age, I can agree with you. I could have agreed with you quite
easily, and you would have been a great friend of mine, but
now [laughs] I ca [partial word-probably "can't"] [be] your
friend. Hai.

Student B: Roshi, do you think that we have any choice?
For instance, I am here at Tassajara.

Suzuki-roshi: Mm-hmm.

Student B: Am I here at Tassajara by my choice, or am I
simply here at Tassajara?

Suzuki-roshi: Well, that's- The answer for that is, you
know, your buddha nature brought you here at Tassajara. That is my
answer. Your choice is not- You ch [partial word]-. I think that
was not comp [partial word], you know, your choice, you know,
completely. Maybe your choice, you know, twenty or thirty percent
your choice. But most of the reason for your [being] here is
something more than that. That we hear Buddha's teaching is, you
know, because of our previous study. And wisdom seek for wisdom. We
are listening to the teaching which we have listened or have had
studied under many teachers in my past life. Dogen said so. Wisdom
seek for wisdom. But, you know, even though you feel, you
know, "I am feeling this way right now, one hundred percent," you
may say so, but actually that voice is now covers all of your being
or character. But actually it is a little tiny part of you saying
so, and you feel as if your whole body is saying so. That's all.
That is, you know, so-called-it- Ahh. Maybe I shouldn't explain
[laughs] so, you know, so much in traditional way.

Student B: Well then, if I were, say, to become buddha,
would I have anything to do about it? Or would I have anything to
do with it? Would I have anything to do with it?

Suzuki-roshi: Mmm. First of all, you know, try to forget
yourself, and rely on your true voice-nonverbal voice-voiceless
voice. And you listen to "tongueless speech," we say. Don't listen
to my words. [Laughs.] Ahh. Think about this point, you
know, and-. Hai.

Student C: Will I hear your stick on my shoulder
tomorrow?

Suzuki-roshi: Hmm?

Student C: In the morning-in the early morning, will I
hear your stick on my shoulder?

Suzuki-roshi: Mm-hmm. Stick?

Student C: Will you hit me with your stick tomorrow
morning?

Suzuki-roshi: Okay. All right.

Student D [Roovane ben Yumin]: Roshi? Is the voice- Whose
voice is it that we listen to?

Suzuki-roshi:Mmm! Your voice and Buddha's voice.
That is, you know, what Sandokai is talking about. You think
sometime [it is] your voice, but that voice is Buddha's voice. But
you think in that way, you know, from one-sided feeling. You think
you are here. You think you are, you know, Roovane, but [laughs]
actually it is not so [laughs, laughter]. No, not at all. If I
think I am Suzuki, you know, if someone call me "Suzuki" I [laughs]
feel very funny. "Oh [laughs], is this Suzuki?" [Laughs.] "Oh no,
I," you know- First reaction is, "No, I am not Suzuki." [Laughs.]
Hai.

Student E: Roshi, this may be a good gassho
[presumably bows], and someone may look at me and say, "Oh, this is
goodgassho."