Thanks ATP, for screwing up the indoors season!

It's bad enough that the grass court season is basically non existent. Now the ATP has decided to change the traditional indoors season and make Shanghai an outdoors MS event. They took carpet away, now it looks as if they want to cut down on the importance of indoors events, even though one of the biggest tourneys of the year (ATP World Tour Finals) is played indoors.

This being said, I think it's ridiculous that Shanghai is a semi-outdoors even. They have the roof, but that's only used when conditions are bad. It would be ok if the court speeds were the same as they were in Shanghai for the TMC. But these courts...pardon the term...it's like 'blue clay'. The ATP has gone farther and farther over the years to neutralize court speeds, and now it seems they've taken another step, adding another slow HC outdoors MS event instead of a fast indoors or carpet MS event.

This really leaves only 2 vital indoors events - the TMC and Paris. Are they going to eventually phase out the indoors events all together? Am I the only one upset about this?

Well, after Shanghai there's still Stockholm, the 2 Russian indoor tournaments, Vienna - they're all 250's, but they all lead into Valencia and Basel - 500's and then we have Paris, an indoor Master's and the season ends in the indoor Master's Cup

So, it all kind of builds up after Shanghai..

And there's even the 3 indoor tourneys before Shanghai.

The indoor season's not what it used to be, though, I agree JBF.

There's not too much space after the USO for more tournaments so what they have to do is convert Beijing and Tokyo into indoors along with Shanghai and maybe even turn the Bucharest 250 into an indoor tournament

Also, we need to get carpets back!!

Turn Paris back into carpets, and also turn the 2 Russian tournaments (Moscow + St.Petersburg) back into carpets, I say!

jamesblakefan, you're not the only one who's upset; remember how they decided to throw out Hamburg? One of the oldest tournaments in tennis history? These days they're only concerned about ratings and their top players; it's not really about the great game of tennis itself, and how to be fair to all players. I also do not like the idea of all top players getting a first round bye; I thought all players used to play all the rounds regardless of their seeding. Pro tennis is changing and it's not for the better.

jamesblakefan, you're not the only one who's upset; remember how they decided to throw out Hamburg? One of the oldest tournaments in tennis history? These days they're only concerned about ratings and their top players; it's not really about the great game of tennis itself, and how to be fair to all players. I also do not like the idea of all top players getting a first round bye; I thought all players used to play all the rounds regardless of their seeding. Pro tennis is changing and it's not for the better.

jamesblakefan, you're not the only one who's upset; remember how they decided to throw out Hamburg? One of the oldest tournaments in tennis history? These days they're only concerned about ratings and their top players; it's not really about the great game of tennis itself, and how to be fair to all players. I also do not like the idea of all top players getting a first round bye; I thought all players used to play all the rounds regardless of their seeding. Pro tennis is changing and it's not for the better.

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At this rate, the Australian Open will move to Beijing or Shanghai, Barcelona will replace Rome as a Masters Series event, and the European tournaments after Wimbledon will all be on hardcourts!

I believe Shanghai changed because it upgraded to a Masters 1000 event and needed the number of courts and spectator accommodations to support the 56 draw within a week's schedule. The indoor hard courts were only supporting a championship series among 8 players (former Masters Cup, now scheduled for London).

It is the same reason events don't get combined, men and women, until the facilities can accommodate it. Really it all hinges on the amount of prize money available, whether a date is open, and whether there are lead in or following events that justify travelling to the region. Effectively, it ends a hard court season rather than starts an indoor season.

The schedule really just follows the weather around the world, so that all the larger events are held outdoors. That really only applies to large "hard courts", because grass and clay are outdoors and weather dependent by definition.

I don't see any point in making more of indoor events on mats, because the players apparently don't like that surface and drop out or tank to avoid it. Paris can be kind of sad.

This year's Shanghai was kind of a sample of how big events disappoint, when a number of the top players fall out. It becomes Djokovic season.

Well I for one am glad to see the indoor events slowly disappearing. I am not a fan of indoor tennis and even less of a fan of carpet. The more the surfaces are made neutral the more there is an even playing field, so to speak, for everyone.
I have a coach that is a former ATP player and we have discussed surfaces quite a bit. He said that most players dislike playing indoors and most dislike carpet. However he has told me, to my surprise that many players would like to see something like HarTru green clay if the tourneys have to be played indoors and possibly even outdoors.
I would say that the reason we are seeing carpet gone and indoor disappearing is because the it's what most of the players want.

Well I for one am glad to see the indoor events slowly disappearing. I am not a fan of indoor tennis and even less of a fan of carpet. The more the surfaces are made neutral the more there is an even playing field, so to speak, for everyone.
I have a coach that is a former ATP player and we have discussed surfaces quite a bit. He said that most players dislike playing indoors and most dislike carpet. However he has told me, to my surprise that many players would like to see something like HarTru green clay if the tourneys have to be played indoors and possibly even outdoors.
I would say that the reason we are seeing carpet gone and indoor disappearing is because the it's what most of the players want.

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I agree about carpet, that surface is dead for a reason, there's nothing worse for the ankles and knees.

I disagree about the rest. How is a ATP-calendar with only slow surfaces "even"?
AO, IW and Miami (the three biggest tournament at the begin of the year) are already slow, after that you've many slow tournaments on clay, then you play on the slowed down grass on Wimbledon, followed by the two only fast surfaces (Cincy and US Open), and then you want some more slow surfaces to make it "even"?

Why not play on clay all year long and change the color of it? It wouldn't make much difference.

I agree about carpet, that surface is dead for a reason, there's nothing worse for the ankles and knees.

I disagree about the rest. How is a ATP-calendar with only slow surfaces "even"?
AO, IW and Miami (the three biggest tournament at the begin of the year) are already slow, after that you've many slow tournaments on clay, then you play on the slowed down grass on Wimbledon, followed by the two only fast surfaces (Cincy and US Open), and then you want some more slow surfaces to make it "even"?

Why not play on clay all year long and change the color of it? It wouldn't make much difference.

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I think part of the indoor season could definitely be played on indoor clay which could be made quite fast and would also be better for the knees and ankle. Hamburg is one of the faster clay courts and Federer has won it 4 times..

I think part of the indoor season could definitely be played on indoor clay which could be made quite fast and would also be better for the knees and ankle. Hamburg is one of the faster clay courts and Federer has won it 4 times..

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I like the idea of an indoor fast clay event at the expense of a slow hardcourt tournament.

What the ATP tour also needs are two big indoor events with a fast hardcourt surface. In such a tournament the points would be shorter and as a result the matches would be less physical.

Hamburg is one of the slowest clay tournaments, a indoor clay event should use a much faster surface.

Personally, I think they ought to make all the courts faster to prevent injuries. The longer you have to stay in the point, the greater the chance of injury. Then you wouldn't have all the whining about the long schedule because the points AND matches would be over a lot quicker and there would not be near as much wear and tear on the body. That is why there weren't near as many injuries in the 80's and early 90's. But, of course, the clay court specialists would have an embolism if they did that.

It's bad enough that the grass court season is basically non existent. Now the ATP has decided to change the traditional indoors season and make Shanghai an outdoors MS event. They took carpet away, now it looks as if they want to cut down on the importance of indoors events, even though one of the biggest tourneys of the year (ATP World Tour Finals) is played indoors.

This being said, I think it's ridiculous that Shanghai is a semi-outdoors even. They have the roof, but that's only used when conditions are bad. It would be ok if the court speeds were the same as they were in Shanghai for the TMC. But these courts...pardon the term...it's like 'blue clay'. The ATP has gone farther and farther over the years to neutralize court speeds, and now it seems they've taken another step, adding another slow HC outdoors MS event instead of a fast indoors or carpet MS event.

This really leaves only 2 vital indoors events - the TMC and Paris. Are they going to eventually phase out the indoors events all together? Am I the only one upset about this?

The biggest reason that has been said to me that players generally want slower surfaces is because you have more time to get to balls to stay in points.
Also some of you are missing the point too that most players to not want indoor events at all. Many of them do not like the lighting etc. indoors and much prefer to play outside. I think you will see many indoor tournaments move to outdoor events in the coming years, as that is what the players have expressed that they want.

The biggest reason that has been said to me that players generally want slower surfaces is because you have more time to get to balls to stay in points.
Also some of you are missing the point too that most players to not want indoor events at all. Many of them do not like the lighting etc. indoors and much prefer to play outside. I think you will see many indoor tournaments move to outdoor events in the coming years, as that is what the players have expressed that they want.

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Slow courts not a good thing if you want to keep points shorter to keep injuries to a minimum. 4 hour matches are bad on the body!

Slow courts not a good thing if you want to keep points shorter to keep injuries to a minimum. 4 hour matches are bad on the body!

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Not necessarily. Tiring yes but bad on the body is not an absolute. I have played plenty of really long matches and I'm not in as good of shape as these top teir athletes. Just becuase you get tired does not mean you get hurt.

They remove the indoor carpet events - and replace them with slower court events. The players whose game suits slower court become prominent. Those players are interviewed - do you like indoor carpet? No, I prefer slower surfaces. See a self-fulfilling prophesy. If the carpet events stayed the serve and volleyers and players whose game it suits would be prominent. Asked if they like indoor carpet - yes, I do. Self Fulfilling prophesy.

If Becker was a young man today, he wouldn't get higher than 15 in the world. He has no forum to show his wonderful game anymore. Grass is slow, no indoor carpet season.

The homegenisation of surface speeds is hurting the sport. It causes all the players to become clones of a standard baseliner.

Slower court players have 90% of the season locked up for them. They get a chance. Fast court players don't have a chance.

Proof: Ask Roger Federer why he changed his style of play at Wimbledon?

The biggest reason that has been said to me that players generally want slower surfaces is because you have more time to get to balls to stay in points.
Also some of you are missing the point too that most players to not want indoor events at all. Many of them do not like the lighting etc. indoors and much prefer to play outside. I think you will see many indoor tournaments move to outdoor events in the coming years, as that is what the players have expressed that they want.

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The only published opinions I see want indoor courts (Tsonga, Soderling, Ancic, etc.)

It's bad enough that the grass court season is basically non existent. Now the ATP has decided to change the traditional indoors season and make Shanghai an outdoors MS event. They took carpet away, now it looks as if they want to cut down on the importance of indoors events, even though one of the biggest tourneys of the year (ATP World Tour Finals) is played indoors.

This being said, I think it's ridiculous that Shanghai is a semi-outdoors even. They have the roof, but that's only used when conditions are bad. It would be ok if the court speeds were the same as they were in Shanghai for the TMC. But these courts...pardon the term...it's like 'blue clay'. The ATP has gone farther and farther over the years to neutralize court speeds, and now it seems they've taken another step, adding another slow HC outdoors MS event instead of a fast indoors or carpet MS event.

This really leaves only 2 vital indoors events - the TMC and Paris. Are they going to eventually phase out the indoors events all together? Am I the only one upset about this?

They remove the indoor carpet events - and replace them with slower court events. The players whose game suits slower court become prominent. Those players are interviewed - do you like indoor carpet? No, I prefer slower surfaces. See a self-fulfilling prophesy. If the carpet events stayed the serve and volleyers and players whose game it suits would be prominent. Asked if they like indoor carpet - yes, I do. Self Fulfilling prophesy.

If Becker was a young man today, he wouldn't get higher than 15 in the world. He has no forum to show his wonderful game anymore. Grass is slow, no indoor carpet season.

The homegenisation of surface speeds is hurting the sport. It causes all the players to become clones of a standard baseliner.

Slower court players have 90% of the season locked up for them. They get a chance. Fast court players don't have a chance.

Proof: Ask Roger Federer why he changed his style of play at Wimbledon?

Federer and Nadal both played a major part in hammering the final nail in the coffin for the carpet surface. In 2007, they both moaned about the taraflex surface that was last used at the Paris Masters up to and includig 2006. Unfortunately the tournament directors there caved in to these spoilt prima donnas and replaced the carpet with a ridiculously slow hard court. The funny thing is that Federer and Nadal played a grand total of 0 matches combined on the taraflex from 2004-2006. Nadal only ever played one match on it, a qualie in 2003 which he lost.

Federer and Nadal both played a major part in hammering the final nail in the coffin for the carpet surface. In 2007, they both moaned about the taraflex surface that was last used at the Paris Masters up to and includig 2006. Unfortunately the tournament directors there caved in to these spoilt prima donnas and replaced the carpet with a ridiculously slow hard court.

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This is very true, and I'm afraid you are spot-on for calling out on Fedal having been the major whiners about the carpet surface. Unfortunately, the ATP cares only about $$$$$$$$$$$$$ nowadays and bends over to the whims of the top players much too easily. :evil:
I really can't see the point in making all the courts basically the same - slowing down the fast courts (Wimbledon and most of the HC) and speeding up the clay (Madrid and RG). It's rather disgusting to those who appreciate DIVERSITY in tennis, and would like to see more 'specialists' having a chance on a particular surface...