Tuesday, May 19, 2015

Ever Run Into "That" Person?

The last few weeks we have had some new people joining us for normal runs or mythic trash farm. Even bought along some of the people for the early bosses on heroic. I do not see any rising stars in the bunch, at least not on the limited impressions I have had of them, but despite what blizzard is trying to push the game toward, raiding isn't everything.

We can always use all types of people in the guild and do not strictly look for raiders, although good ones are always welcome of course. A good community within a guild has many working layers. There are the progression raiders, the serious PvPers, the part timers, the normal mode players, the battle ground warriors, the alt o holics, the grinders, the gatherers, the socials, you name it. When you are in a casual guild you do not need to be laser focused on one thing. It has to be a melting pot.

This is why we do the normal runs and trash runs, it gives us a chance to mingle, to get to know your fellow guild mates. Connections are made, friendships are formed, people talk about their level 94 alts that they will now level together tomorrow. A damage dealer will talk about how he hates the long waits in queue so a healer or a tank offer to "hit me up" so they can get an instant, or near instant dungeon.

Just because there are many people with many different focuses in the game doesn't mean that people do not have common interests. The raider who is stocking up 4 barns on a daily basis, the gold goblin that has barns running to make gold, the non raider who just wants to make their own gear and needs bloods from their barn and the new 100 that can't really trap things on their own or the achievement hunter that is just trapping to get the achievement. They all play differently, but they all have something in common and these little get together runs bring them on the same page so the next day they go elite trapping together.

Things like this are what build a guilds community. Impromptu world PvP running around as a group starting trouble. Naked dungeon runs. Naked arena runs. Achievement runs for old raids. You name it, each and every little event you do brings people together and make a guild so much more than just a bunch of people hanging out under the same banner. It is what makes a guild a community and maybe even feel like extended in game family.

But every so often someone joins the mix, like someone we have had recently in the raid runs, that just seems to click wrong. Wrong with everyone. The social non raiders do not like them, the active raiders do not like them, neither the progression raiders nor the normal mode raiders nor even the LFR only raiders. The alt a holics do not like them, the achievement hunters do not like them, even the pure socials who just like to hang out and chat more than anything else do not like them.

They are "that" person.

I can not place my finger on it but I dislike them too. It is not just the copious complains, remarks or observations I keep hearing from others. I am the type that will usually play with anyone, even if I am not all that fond of them because I am always aware of the big picture. But I dread them signing up for an event. I am so glad they are not geared enough or experienced enough to bring on our proper raids. I do not want to be around them. I would rather log off than be part of an event they join in and the sad part here is that it is not just me. Everyone dislikes them. I gave them more time to pass judgement than everyone else did figuring maybe it was just a rough getting to know you phase but even I find being around them unpleasant.

There seems to be only one person in the entire guild that likes them and it is going to cause trouble because it is the guild leader. I've already been told in no uncertain words that if they come on a normal raid that a few of my main raiders will no longer be coming along to help. They are always willing to help by bring their mains to help gear up new players, alts of some people that need gear, or just whomever we can squeeze in but as much as they do have a desire to help the guild as a whole their dislike of "that" person greatly outweighs it and they can not bring themselves to raid with them.

I am sure I don't need to tell you what the impact of losing a few people capable of doing 50K-60K will do to a normal run where we are bringing new players, under geared players or rotating who gets to bring an alt. Having a few solid damage dealers makes every single fight easier and not having them means we can not bring as many lesser people on normal runs. If that is the case, than there really is not reason to run normal runs, at least as I see it. I don't want to do progression on normal mode all over again.

One person will not even get on voice chat if they are on it. Even if they are in a different channel. They will log in, see them there, and leave instantly. After one odd event one evening he even removed two of his characters from guild because he wanted to play them and didn't even want to see "that" person talk in chat. That is how much he really dislikes "that" person. He quit the guild just to not see their name in guild chat.

I don't understand why everyone dislike this person. I don't even know why I do. "That" person just rubbed me wrong the first time we spoke and my dislike grew over time. It is not like they did anything wrong. "That" person is willing to help anyone that needs it. Will give anyone an instant queue to a dungeon or LFR, all they need to do is ask. If they want to buy something and are short on gold "that" person will lend it to them, heck, even give it to them if it is not much. "That" person shares materials, potions, flasks, "that" person is the ideal player in that sense. A true team player. But it seems the team dislikes "that" person and I have no clue why.

I think maybe they come off as trying to hard, maybe that might be it and it just rubs people the wrong way, I know that is partly where I can tag some of my dislike of them. Coming off as trying to hard really can be a turn off. Maybe they come off as being a know it all, which is the complaint someone mentioned to me. Whatever it is, they are most definitely "that" person.

My issue is I need to figure out what to do with "that" person and how to handle them or they can destroy a good thing. I don't really want to be rude and say you are no longer welcome to come to things with us but it almost feels as that is my only true option. I do whatever I can to not be a dick, but it seems like this time I might have to. They can end up destroying the chemistry guild if they keep coming along even if that is not their intention because "that" person just makes everyone not want to be around them and in this case, being the only person that likes them is the guild leader, this little issue can become a big problem, and fast.

About the only thing I have going for me is that if I tell the guild leader, being they are "that" persons friend, to handle it they will. I just do not want to draw that card unless I have to. I've given "that" person some time. I've given "that" person some advice on how to fit in better. I've tried my damn hardest to help "that" person fit in, even if I didn't like them either, because that is part of what I do. I handle the sometimes delicate balance of personalities so we can all work together. But it did not work. Something needs to be done and I just do not know what.

Have you ever run into "that" person? If so, how did you deal with them?

20 comments:

Yes, it was before your time in the game, but we have had such a person before. Seemingly a nice enough person, but in truth a mal-adjusted, mentally ill person who was simply toxic to be around for most individuals. For the few she liked (mostly me and her brother-in-law who also is a good friend of mine in real life), she could be charming and even show friendship but it was all an act.

Now I did like her, and to be honest, within the limitations of what I learned about her after, I would still be friendly and nice to her. On the other hand, most people never received any niceness from her evidently.

Let me put it this way, my wife, who generally pretends to not like anyone but in truth has a great big ol' heart that will go out of her way to show decency to others; my wife refused to play with her under any circumstances. Our druid guild leader (the other two term guild leader) actively hated her and I don't think our dear druid has ever hated anyone else. Still it is the structure of our guild that we won't kick someone for being unpopular necessarily, so the toxic player stayed in well past her expiration date.

For me that expiration date came in Shadow Lab. A two hour run at the most (at the time) turned into a four hour slugfest with us wiping far to many times to count. I alt-F4ed out of the game at that point, still short of the third boss. My replacement got so disgusted, he quit. Not as in quit the party nor as in quit the guild, no not at all; as in logged off and I didn't see him again until well into Wrath. That was when I learned she was the reason he left the game.

Her mental illness finally produced a ranting "I quit" rampage in guild chat, one so shocking in terms of abuse that it almost literally paralyzed all the officers, save for a rogue who a few lines into her rant, finally hit the eject button for her. The rogue was right in doing so.

Having written this, looking back in hindsight, I honestly can say that sooner is better. To have kept the individual as long as we did, it was a mistake. You need to make our current guild leader aware of how this is a problem and it needs to be dealt with sooner rather than later.

I think I know who you are referring to but only because I pay attention to officer chat when I am logged in. Mostly I have read complaints about the DPS from the individual. To be honest, that is a major portion of why I was so hesitant to even sign up for any raid, reading the negative comments on the person's DPS and knowing that I would not be doing a whole lot better in that regards myself. Yet, reading your "that person" writing, I now wonder if there is more than just low DPS and an apparent inability to learn a raid encounters that is at play.

Some folks are simply toxic and poison any well that they drink from. Removal is the only answer. Adding the person to our "do not invite" list is the outcome that will have to come about. You have no idea how much I hate writing something like that about someone else, but facts is facts and sooner or later must be faced.

I do not believe it is the person you think. That person was just a lesser skilled player welcome to lower content but not on progression and they kept pushing to be invited to progression, asking for their invite and then complaining that they were not invited. That is why the comments on DPS. Some people just do not realize that they are not up to par yet. Bad DPS is no reason to ever eject someone, just control what they can partake in.

I don't think I have ever seen that druid healer dislike anyone. If she did not like this person you knew they was something wrong. lol

It is weird how people just rub some, or in this case most, people the wrong way. I don't believe it is metal illness as you mentioned. I really think they are trying to much to be liked that they are making people dislike them in the process. I think it is something that can be fixed. Or would hope. But I don't think things can last long enough before they blow up with "that" person.

Girl raider who isn't liked by other raiders or girls. Colour me surprised. There are actual guilds who don't allow girls because 'they cause drama'. I can't take these things seriously, in most cases it's people who don't know how to interact with girls. Either harassing the girl, either being rude to her, either not accepting her input, either having a crush on her. In most cases people decide 'the girl is not mentally stable' or whatnot. Our GM went through 4 girls he hit on and they all eventually quit and were seen as 'having problems', and I've only been around for a few years. If you didn't know about what brought here leaving, there's probably someone who caused it and knows about it.

To be honest my description of the player was accurate. She had a real honest to god mental illness, which was not her fault, but not taking her meds regularly enough to control it accounted for a lot of her ill behavior and that responsibility was hers. Now, I have seen the type of drama James described and that was not her case at all. Would that it had been for then her mental health would have been a huge amount better.

I am reasonably sure that the day she got her /gkick, she had not taken any meds for several days and the real personality got loose. If her being rude and obnoxious on occasion was more or less expected by most players in the guild, her cutting loose was not. As I said previously, she went ballistic, and showed no signs of slowing down until she was suddenly gone from the guild thanks to the rogue I mentioned.

Girls do tend to bring drama with them but boys do too. It is why we have so few younger players in our guild.

The girl that wants to be center of attention will get on everyone nerves, more so if the guys fall for her crap. In our guild I would get on the guys that fell for her crap faster than I would get on her. I'd kick someone for things like that without even thinking about it.

Heck, I have left a ton of pugs because when I got on their voice chat everyone was talking to this one girl. I am here to raid. If you want to pick up girls go to a bar. Seriously, this is not a dating site.

@Anon

We have one like that in guild now, she has not been around most of the expansion but she said she might come back. She would have arguments with herself in guild chat. Sometimes we had to tell her to just chill out, log off, go read a book. Although I do not know for sure, I would say the same thing, I think she was off her meds.

I know the rogue you are talking about, not sure of the person however. Was before my time there.

I've seen a couple that fit this description over the years, but none so much as one that we had toward the beginning of this expansion.

Really, it boiled down to a combination of things that I uncovered; because I too was trying to locate the cause of my own personal dislike of this person as it wasn't blatantly obvious why.

1) Low DPS. He played a Monk, but was VERY bad at playing a Monk. At the time we had another Monk DPS in guild that was almost 2x the DPS with comparable gear. Advice was given and logs looked into, but nothing improved on his end.

2) Appeared to know what he was talking about, but in all reality, was only regurgitating what he had seen/read elsewhere - all the while not actually following his own advice/directives.

3) Always had an opinion or input on everything discussed (over Vent or guild/raid chat) - regardless if he was invited to the discussion or not and regardless if he actually knew what he was talking about or not. On top of that, he would make a statement that you know is false, call him on it, and then he would retract what he said and backpedal - make up an example of a possible situation where what he said "might" be true (often times just making himself look even more foolish). Slightly different than the "know it all" syndrome, but a close second to it.

4) An annoying, nasally voice. Now, I know this isn't his fault and I really did hesitate on even mentioning this simply due to the fact that this is not anything under his control. BUT, when you combine the above three and include an annoying voice?? Well then... the annoying voice is just the match that lit the gasoline soaked bonfire!

Of all those reasons I really think number 3 is the most significant/primary reason I (and many others) disliked him. Now, like the person you mention in your situation, he was helpful. Always up for doing things with others and asking if others wanted to come along. Crafting gear and items using his mats at no charge (or significantly reduced charge). Overall helpful to everyone. But here's the thing... he had to be all of that or else we would have kicked him immediately! If it wasn't for that "teamwork" attitude and generosity, it would have been very easy to part our separate ways. But by being a "team player", it made everyone else feel a little guilty for not wanting to be around him and guilty for wanting him removed.

In the end he was removed from raiding with us because he had been the cause of one too many wipes (you know the wipes I mean... Situational Awareness SHOULD have been there by now and wasn't - far too many times). It was kind of "Office Space" of us (think of the two Bob's) - but "we simply fixed the glitch". We took away his reason to be in the guild (raiding) and he left on his own some weeks later. In retrospect, I think we should have been more direct - that way he might have learned from it. But, in the end... the result justified the means IMO.

I think your #3 is probably pretty much the center of it for a few people. Usually I chalk that up to one of a few things, such as trying to hard. But it could also be someone trying to be a know it all.

#3 really did hit a nerve when reading it. I am sure that is at the heart of the matter with that person.

Honestly, if he's not a jerk or doing anything intentionally negative or bad, I think he deserves a chance to change whatever it is about him that people dislike. Have you - or the GL - spoken to him about this? He might have no idea that he's rubbing people the wrong way, and if he's not DOING anything explicitly bad, it's not really fair to kick him without at least approaching him first.

Ultimately, even if he does listen to the feedback, it might not change anything. Sometimes people aren't a good community fit, even if they are not bad people.

Unlike you, I in general don't like most people, and have an incredibly low tolerance for what I'll put up with before /ignore. Within what I guess is my "main" guild right now, I probably have about a third of the people on /ignore.

Of those people, probably 75% of them are because they talk about things that annoy me, like racist shit, or calling everything gay. For the most part I basically understand that these are just kids (of whatever age) that are a bit socially inept, and never learned how to communicate like a reasonable human being. So it's not like I hate them or anything, it's just not something I want to see in an activity I do for fun.

The other roughly 25% of the people I've /ignored, are kind of like you've described, where I don't really know why they bother me. There's one guy who doesn't raid for us, but is still constantly refilling mats in the guild bank, and always goes out of way to run through things with lower level people, which I really respect, and I really want to like him for doing those kind things, but there's just something about him, the way he talks, or something, that just drives me nuts. So I'll often try, after taking a break for a while with him ignored, un-ignoring him. But then after maybe a day I'll just get fed up again re-ignore.

I have this theory about it, though. There are certain traits in my own personality that I don't like. Like for example, being overly argumentative even when I don't really care about the subject; this overwhelming need to always be right. So I'm aware that I have these traits that make it less likely that people would enjoy being around me, so I work relatively hard (sometimes more successfully than others) to not do those things. So, anyway, my theory is then that when I see those same traits in other people, it sets me off. And sometimes this might be even something that I don't even realize I don't like about myself, so then I can't figure out why I don't like the person.

Which is kind of counter-intuitive, I'd think. That is, I should be more forgiving of those traits, because I'm hoping that other people will also be forgiving toward me of those traits. But what happens instead, is since it's not fun to hate something about yourself, all that hate gets turned around on someone else who has a similar trait. They get to be my psychological scape-goat.

If I were to ever ignore a person in my guild I would not longer be in that guild. Unless the 1/3 you mentioned are not raiders I could see it impacting your game play.

I always say, I would rather raid lower content with people I like being with than higher content with people I don't. Progression matters, but not at the cost of my sanity.

The people you mentioned the racist people, the call everything gay people, etc., would not last long in my guild anyway. I've had people join us for one raid, heard that crap on vent, and then kicked them right after. Sorry, if you can not act like a human being I have no desire to play with you.

What you say does make sense. I've clashed with people over the years. Usually them stepping in and trying to play raid leader when that is not their job. I've give them a simple shut up a do your job speech most of the time. If we wipe I do not mind input but if we have been one shotting a boss for 3 months and you step in on your first raid and say I am doing ti wrong, you won't last long.

I am not the alpha, I was cast into the roll. But I am very protective of it. So I see what you mean. I hate when people come in and try to take the lead because that is my job. I hate it even more when they try to take the lead and have no clue what they are talking about. You can not say "you're doing it wrong" when we one shot a boss. Yes, I have had people tell me this multiple times. I might not be doing it the way you saw it on youtube, doesn't mean it is wrong. There is more than one way to skin a boss.

I don't think that is the issue with "that" person however. They have never stepped on my toes. Been annoying in raid and have to be told to settle down a few times, but that happens with everyone new, so I do not even hold that against them.

As for the argumentative, I love people like that, as long as they can have an intelligent conversation. You would love some debates we have had on voice chat.

Yeah, the guild that my main hunter is in has an almost completely open guild policy, where anyone can invite anyone. The GL will generally only kick people if they're directly harassing another guild member.

It's much more rare for me to /ignore people I raid with. Though I certainly have some people turned down lower than others in vent/mumble. Fortunately, as a hunter I don't really need to hear anyone but the raid leader. And even then, I could probably make it through farm night without voice and no one would notice.. :-P

I feel like Calvin (as in, and hobbes) was talking about finding a guild in WoW, when he said:

"If you can just get most people to leave you alone, you're doing good. If you can find even one person you really like [in a guild], you're lucky. And if that person can also stand you, you're really lucky"

I've seen this a few times. In mid to low "social raiding guilds". The ones where drama happens sooner or later and, if not properly handled, the guild implodes or changes. Never in a proper focused raiding guild.I am not a very social person so I don't mingle all that much, but I observed these things - people trying to exclude someone, nitpicking on the way they talk, the way they act, the way they were late that one time, the way they get too excited etc. Usually, it started from some stupid thing like someone getting a piece of loot they do not deserve in the eye of others or cursing that one time. And then it develops into gossip and talking in private channels (cause it's always clique attitude) and then people bitch and moan to officers about taking drastical measures. Fun being an officer, right? Where you get to 'fear' the actions of your best raiders and what would happen if they leave. I recall how stressed I was quite a few years back when our main healer threatened to leave and to take 3-4 of our best dpses because of I actually wrote to Scott (from Wowinsider's Officer Quarters) at the time and he told me to kick the healer and never let players threaten like that. It's a long story I won't get into.Eventually, I left myself, but mostly because I couldn't stand the drama and the rift people created.

And then I've seen this situation again, in a different guild. One that was supposedly more mature. But older people tend to make the same kind of crap when allowed. I wasn't an officer that time around, but I felt the drama. They kicked the person they 'disliked' and the group that threatened to leave came to power and brought down a guild that had been around since vanilla. People like this are unstable. Here's the story of what actually happened, written by the ex-GM: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/4211012509Luckily, I wasn't around it that time anymore to see this thing. But I couldn't help think that it was pretty obvious how people who threaten to leave in a group are never to be trusted.

So my 2 cents...

People that threaten to leave if someone is there but cannot give a reason are not mature people, not being objective. And people going the extra mile to prove how much a name on guild chat hurts them are even more so incredibly .Figure out what is 'wrong' with this person if there actually is. If you can't, it's just group mentality gone haywire and people enjoying excluding other people just because they feel they should. Confront them if you find a problem. People bitching and moaning behind someone's back and threatening to leave without giving a proper reason, in a game no less, are low grade human beings. They are the ones making a situation out of something that can be solved. If it's real, if the person gives actual reasons to be disliked, the gm will understand it can be kicked. People, in general, gather like sheep and act upon things the more seeming support they have from their 'kin'. This is why cliques exist. I have never seen a proper raider and human being try to exclude anyone.

So, bottom line - be direct, find the cause. If it's real, kick them. If it's not, don't give in to threats and try to reason to people. Don't accept crap, because if it happens once it will happen more and more even if it's all been roses and lollipops till now.

I am not a social person at all either. I "pretend" and go through the motions because I have to. But it just is not me really.

I've never been one for ultimatums myself. Scott was right to say to remove them. I've had many people over the years, before flex, that said they wanted to be on the progression team as soon as they joined. I said no, I want to see what you can do and then I can sub you in if you are capable and we can move from there. I would always get the "I'm to good for this team if you do not put me on the progression team I am leaving" to which I would reply, good luck with your new guild.

Our guild has been around since vanilla as well. I don't think an implosion on the level you mention could happen, but anything is possible I guess. I don't see our progression team being a problem, we will still do out one night a week, it is the normal or alt runs I see becoming an issue.

As I mentioned in the post I don't really think anyone dislikes that person for a specific reason, they just rub people the wrong way. So it is not a case of "they don't fit with the cool kids" because they don't seem to fit anywhere.

I think in the end I will have to ask them to leave, but I feel bad about it because I can't really state a reason why. In effect, they have not broken any guild rules.

Amazing how much stuff in game could be used in Psychology and Sociology classes. From the deep dark days of Barrens Chat migrating to Trade Chat (and apparently all the trolls too). Most of those trolls belong to guilds and are probably more reserved about what they post in guild chat (we can kick you from a guild, but we can't kick you from Trade).

I think a lot of what I have read here just paints the picture of the guy that lives in a basement. We don't know who they are outside the game, but in game you are somebody else. This is one of the reasons transmog is so popular. We want our in game avatars to be who we want the world to see us as. Since these self same folks probably have limited social skills, they don't know how to properly communicate with others. This probably makes them ultra sensitive to criticism as well.

Take a step back in think about this game when it was young(er). What we saw in chat was also being used in texting (remember that texting wasn't as prolific as it is now and had less you could say due to character limits). Much of WoW hit the mainstream and the non-player population isn't even aware. How tired are you of the overuse of the word "epic"? Joe Ignorant non-WoW player has no idea when he says "EPIC FAIL" that he is borrowing the term from a game he probably makes fun of.

I went off on a tangent of the discussion Grumpy put up. There are all kinds of people we avoid in real life. When they are present, we usually make sure we don't attend those same events. WoW is supposed to be an escape tool from the Real World. When we encounter people we don't like, it can frustrate us to no end. I have left numerous guilds because I didn't have time for the stupid crap people say. I always hated getting a "GRATS" everytime I got the stupid achievement toast (especially when it's on an alt the just fell 65 yards). But I don't go off on the person. Dealing with people on a regular basis in real life has given me a unique perspective on this.

But unless the person is as toxic as Anon's example, I think it would be better said that speak with those that have problems with the person they don't like. It can't be because of his acne, his weight problems, or his physical appearance. You can't run away from these things. You have to but on your big boy pants and learn to deal with it. Put on some blinders. You think the Japanese like being packed in a train like sardines? They deal with it.

I think part of the problem is the experienced folks have lost their tolerance for the new(er) players. To put it in perspective, I am retiring from the Navy next month after 22 years. It is very hard for me to deal with the Sailors that are coming in (many were born while I was in the Navy!). But with the Navy having to evolve and cater to a younger crowd, so does Blizzard.

If transmog shows us as who we want the world to see us as then mine is extremely telling. I do not transmog any characters except my main (unless I am really bored) and my main looks about as basic as you can find. I am a hunter that looks as if he is wearing street clothing. Normal shirt, normal pants, normal shoes, etc. If it tells anything about it I believe it would be I am not anyone special and I do not want to be viewed as such. You can wear your flashy armor. I'll just wear my street clothes and blend into the background thank you very much.

It might be a little with the "new" player thing but we bought people in that were still in half greens. You know how cool it is to see someone upgrade a green piece with a 700 piece, kind of cool. And those experienced folks need nothing from there. They come to help those new people get gear. So I am pretty sure it is not them not wanting to help new players. But I do not that must play a part in it. I know I would rather do another night of heroic than one normal and one heroic. But we are casual, so no need to press. And all of us have alts we want to cycle in to get gear as there is no other reasonable way to get gear this expansion.

But yes, the younger factor. Many of us are older, family, kids, work, the whole 9 yards, and I don't think any of us really have any patience for a "kid". We have fun, we joke around, we pick on each other, but we know when the right time is to play and when the right time is to kill, and someone that does not get that, as in a kid, can really get on peoples bad sides quick.

there will always be "those people". But for one, I really believe folks are just too damned sensitive these days and want others to be just like them.

At my college when I worked there (now medically retired), they have brought out a new policy - don't wear perfume or after shave for you may offend someone with your smell. Plaaaeeeessseee, get real.

What is one thing to one is another thing to someone else. Trying to fit everyone into a single mold is crazy, yet, people (even gamers) tend to do it. Does anyone try to talk with these people, about the dislike and hatred?

I found that I needed to tell the officers when I was in guilds of others, about my condition, not for pity but to explain my lack of playing (not showing up), bad playing, or downright goofiness from the ()&@^#*^ meds. Even today from years ago, the meds will affect me and are in a constant shuffling.

LOL, 700 piece - wut's that? My newest still has mostly 605's and prob will. I will never see a e-lvl 700.