I'm wondering, how do you know the difference, without looking at the chart, between someone who is living a primary lifetime and someone who is not? Or is the only way to tell by looking at the chart. And, if that is so, then is there really any benefit to even knowing whether it is a primary life or not? And if there is, what is that?

I'd not thought about the things you are asking about before. Can't guarantee I am correct, but some thoughts came to me.

First, the only way to know if someone is living a primary lifetime without a chart is to be able to look directly into their Soul. For the other 99.22% of us....

What came to me is, a primary lifetime is an evolutionary gateway lifetime. That is what the aspect between Pluto and Mars represents. That aspect is either culminating (balsamic qualities) like a Crescent phase square, or beginning (new phase qualities) like a First Quarter square. They are gateways into the next phase of that Soul's development. Because they relate to new orientations, in the case of stressful aspects at least, there is going to be inner tension and resistance to the intended changes. That resistance will be within the Soul itself, not just the personality. Thus it may take extra effort to move through the transition.

Mars moves about half a degree a day. By progression, in an 80 year life Mars moves about 40 degrees, enough to move through any transitional gateway. (Unless it is retrograde for all or part of that period.) Thus culminating aspects have the potential to complete within this life, if the evolutionary intentions are addressed.

Jeffrey taught that it takes eight primary lifetimes to complete a Mars-Pluto cycle, which breaks down to one per phase. You can see by the progressions that 40 degrees in 80 years correlates to approx one 45 degree phase of that cycle. I don't think he ever expanded much on the purpose of subsidiary (secondary) lifetimes. What fits for me is they are where we are completing and refining elements that were not quite finished in the primary lifetime. (It is our own Soul that determines if it is satisfied that completion was reached).

In terms of being able to recognize a primary lifetime through observation, I don't know if that is possible. I thought of the example of a person with 5 planets in Scorpio and every planet in the chart EXCEPT Mars aspecting Pluto. That person is going to be very intense, yet they are not in a primary lifetime. If you look at them from the outside you would not know that.

In terms of whether it makes any difference to know, I suspect not a huge difference. My sense is a lot of the heavy lifting, culminating or breaking open new elements, occurs in the primary lifetime. In the secondary they are born with those gates already opened. So a certain amount of the breaking open pressure is released. But they could be working on many intense things that would create their own pressures in the secondary life. So it could be difficult to tell the difference from the outside.

Also, if a person is in a primary life with a Mars-Pluto trine, and has a bunch of other trines, and doesn’t have a lot of Pluto aspects to other planets, from the outside they would not feel like what we picture a primary life would feel like. As always, there are infinite combinations and possibilities.

I just had a quick question on your statement about the past lives of Obama. I totally get the Lincoln aspect. However, didn't Charles Lindbergh die in 1974? Thanks!

I am not an expert on these things, so can't say for certain what I am about to say is true in this case. We were taught that in the higher evolutionary stages, starting in Spiritual 1st, that the Soul can split itself, have two incarnations going at the same time, to speed up its evolution. That each would be working with different elements of the Soul's desire nature. Lincoln was identified as being in 1st stage spiritual. Yogananda said in his life prior to Lincoln, in fact, he was a yogi in India. So perhaps this explains the chronological overlap.Steve

Steve's Quote:What came to me is, a primary lifetime is an evolutionary gateway lifetime. That is what the aspect between Pluto and Mars represents. That aspect is either culminating (balsamic qualities) like a Crescent phase square, or beginning (new phase qualities) like a First Quarter square. They are gateways into the next phase of that Soul's development. Because they relate to new orientations, in the case of stressful aspects at least, there is going to be inner tension and resistance to the intended changes. That resistance will be within the Soul itself, not just the personality. Thus it may take extra effort to move through the transition.

Hi Steve,

Thanks for this. Thinking of primary lives as a gateway for the Soul is really helpful. I can definitely understand the difference. And I can now also understand how people going through subsidiary lives may also be working very hard in their current life, even if it is not a primary life. It seems the question is not really a question of intensity, but perhaps more of intention, ie, the particular focus of the Soul in a given lifetime.....?

To pick up on part of what you discussed regarding progressions of mars, if the lifetime is a primary lifetime signified by mars and pluto aspects, but the mars is retrograde and continuesto be for much of the life by progression, what does this signify? Does this mean the individual will be repeating dynamics in regards to mars in order to resolve the movement across the evolutionary gate at which they are born?

For example, if an individual has mars/pluto at 45 degree aspect natally it indicates the transitionfrom new phase into cresent phase is occurring and it is a primary lifetime. Yet if the mars is retrogradeat birth and continues to be by progression for much of the lifetime, then does that mean that it will function more like a new phase aspect? And if that is the case, how would that serve the resolution of the movement into the cresent phase, which is the intention of that aspect natally ?

if the lifetime is a primary lifetime signified by mars and pluto aspects, but the mars is retrograde and continues to be for much of the life by progression, what does this signify? Does this mean the individual will be repeating dynamics in regards to mars in order to resolve the movement across the evolutionary gate at which they are born?

For example, if an individual has mars/pluto at 45 degree aspect natally it indicates the transitionfrom new phase into cresent phase is occurring and it is a primary lifetime. Yet if the mars is retrogradeat birth and continues to be by progression for much of the lifetime, then does that mean that it will function more like a new phase aspect? And if that is the case, how would that serve the resolution of the movement into the cresent phase, which is the intention of that aspect natally ?

Your questions are good ones. I can't give you definitive answers. I doubt the movement is as linear as we might think of it as, because nothing ever seems to be as linear as we picture it as. I suggest considering it symbolically - what might it symbolize? Retrograde is always the R words - redo, renew, review. A person could be born before Mars turns retro and it would be direct in natal and go retro by progression during their life. Or they could be born with Mars retro and Mars go direct by progression during their life. Or they could be born with Mars retro by progression for the entire life. These are going to be distinct conditions for that Soul. Some of it undoubtedly relates to where that Soul was prior to the present life.

Rather than me stating my thoughts, perhaps it makes sense for people who are interested in this topic to present some thoughts on what Mars retro by progression might mean in those 3 scenarios. What are some reasons a Soul might choose to be born with one of those signatures? (Perhaps someone can come up with a real chart that reflects one of those conditions.)Steve

Steve's Quote:What came to me is, a primary lifetime is an evolutionary gateway lifetime. That is what the aspect between Pluto and Mars represents. That aspect is either culminating (balsamic qualities) like a Crescent phase square, or beginning (new phase qualities) like a First Quarter square. They are gateways into the next phase of that Soul's development. Because they relate to new orientations, in the case of stressful aspects at least, there is going to be inner tension and resistance to the intended changes. That resistance will be within the Soul itself, not just the personality. Thus it may take extra effort to move through the transition.

Hi Steve,

Thanks for this. Thinking of primary lives as a gateway for the Soul is really helpful. I can definitely understand the difference. And I can now also understand how people going through subsidiary lives may also be working very hard in their current life, even if it is not a primary life. It seems the question is not really a question of intensity, but perhaps more of intention, ie, the particular focus of the Soul in a given lifetime.....?Peace,Ellen

Hi Steve,

Just want to make sure you saw this question (highlighted in blue) at the end of my post and that you agree with how I have characterized the difference between a primary life and a subsidiary life.

Ellen - long ago I figured the primary life issue was something I'd not fully understand - in theory, but not in a cohesive fashion. I completely 'ditto' your questions!

I'm apparently in a primary life - it feels I'm not getting anywhere. Although I've decided the idea of 'getting anywhere' is a counter-productive attitude. So, I simply exist & feel like I'm waiting (I sound so taurus south node right now). However, this life may seem somewhat 'easy' (thus far) simply because so many lives have been full of trauma - ? - perhaps that is part of it, or can be, a 'primary' is the time to 'sift' and for othersit is more of a 'reaping' or even 'sowing'. Hmmm. My guess is the answer will be, as it is usually, rather relative. But, I'm anxious for a reply to your questions myself.

Hi Lucius, Steve, All,

Just wondering if, perhaps, given the idea of a primary life as a gateway, that this feeling of "not getting anywhere" might perhaps be characteristic of a primary life as opposed to a subsidiary life....? I know, Steve, that you don't feel yourself to be an expert and may not really be able to answer this question, but I am curious what your sense would be. I found your answer above to be quite helpful. Thiss is just my way of going at it from a different angle to clarify any misconceptions I may have. Hope you don't mind.

Let me jump into this. Ellen asks: "It seems the question is not really a question of intensity, but perhaps more of intention, ie, the particular focus of the Soul in a given lifetime.."

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It is not a question of intensity at all. It is all about the intention for the non-primary life which is simply continuing to actualize, evolve, whatever the original intentions are for the current evolutionary cycle that the Soul is living out. It takes many lives for this to happen.

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JJ asks about the retrograde symbolism of a primary life as symbolized, in the example, of a Mars semi-square Pluto where Mars in retrograde. "to pick up on part of what you discussed regarding progressions of mars, if the lifetime is a primary lifetime signified by mars and pluto aspects, but the mars is retrograde and continues to be for much of the life by progression, what does this signify? Does this mean the individual will be repeating dynamics in regards to mars in order to resolve the movement across the evolutionary gate at which they are born?"

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The answer is yes. The intent of the retrograde as an archetype is to relive, redo, repeat as Steve pointed out. And the intention within that, the reason for that, is to INDIVIDUATE. Any retrograde planet either by birth, or going retrograde in the context of a lifetime, is not only to repeat, relive, and redo, which can have many reasons, but one of the core reasons is to individuate. It accelerates the evolutionary process of individuation. Thus the Soul desires to withdraw from ANY external circumstance or condition that is attempting define, through expectations, how the archetype of the planet that is retro, at birth, progression, or transit, how that archetype (planet)is 'meant' be to actualized or lived out. And that is because the Soul is desiring to individuate it's function which, in turn, allows for an acceleration of the Soul's development because of the effort to individuate. In it's own way it ignites a deep feeling in the Soul that says 'not this, not that, so what is it' ?

"For example, if an individual has mars/pluto at 45 degree aspect natally it indicates the transitionfrom new phase into cresent phase is occurring and it is a primary lifetime. Yet if the mars is retrogradeat birth and continues to be by progression for much of the lifetime, then does that mean that it will function more like a new phase aspect? And if that is the case, how would that serve the resolution of the movement into the cresent phase, which is the intention of that aspect natally ?"

Yes, it will function more like a new phase aspect in the sense that there is the underlying intention to individuate. Thus, the Soul will continue to initiate a diversity of experiences that all correlate to the new evolutionary intentions of the Soul, a new cycle of evolutionary development, with the INTENTION, crescent phase, of actualizing specific forms that allow for that individuation of the Soul to be actualized. And once those forms are discovered, realized, actualized there will continue to be an ongoing individuation, 'not this, not that', until those forms truly reflect the unique individuality of the Soul.

Thanks so much for your answers. I hope you don't mind me asking one more question. It occurred to me as I was reading your responses that it might be possible, and perhaps advisable, to consider the non-primary lives within the context of the prior primary life intentions that were most recently lived. Indeed, perhaps this is the entire intention of the specific way in which JWG approaches of the aspects in general - the 8 primary and then grouping the minor aspects according to the primary aspect which they fall under....?

Thanks for your question Ellen. It really illuminated for me how the secondary lifetimes are "nested" into the intentions created during the primary lifetimes. Something I hadn't consciously put together before, but was starting to notice.

I apologize for getting into the mars retrograde tangent here under this topic, but have a few more questions regarding this matter.

Rad, to clarify a little further regarding the retrograde function, you said: Thus the Soul desires to withdraw from ANY external circumstance or condition that is attempting to define, through expectations, how the archetype of the planet that is retro, at birth, progression, or transit, how that archetype (planet)is 'meant' be to actualized or lived out. And that is because the Soul is desiring to individuate it's function which, in turn, allows for an acceleration of the Soul's development because of the effort to individuate.

Does this mean that once the individual has reached some degree of individuation within a certain area (I understand that it is an ongoing process) that they would no longer have to withdraw from situations with expectations because they would already own their sense of how they want to accomplish, do or express themselves in that arena? So the expectations may still be there, but as long as they could express the aspect of themselves or own it, the expectations would no longer require them to withdraw?

It seems that until someone has individuated and found their own way, so to speak, the process of withdrawing occurs because it provides an opportunity to reflect and then move forwards towards something that is more suited. But once they have individuated and gained some sense of "their way," there also would need to be some ability to be integrated within the forms and expectations of society, of jobs, of communities etc while still maintaining whatever individuation has occurred, if the intentions of the chart and their evolutionary stage required them to function within society. In other words, withdrawal could mean emotional or intellectual withdrawal as well as actual physical withdrawal from an experience? Or am I misunderstanding?

I would like to say, in my 'case', the feeling is that the primary life is like coming up for air - being aware of certain things that I did not/could not in prior lives for various reasons. However, my feeling that not much is happening - to clarify - is the realization that my 'knowledge' is intellectual (or on the surface appears to be) and not experiential - or not entirely. So, I'm sloughing off old ways of knowing - and trying to discover what I already know & let that lead me. It's a slow process. Meanwhile I try to be grateful - and keep perspective, the bottom line. The responses here & input helped me to understand what I was meaning the other night! Thanks.

I would like to say, in my 'case', the feeling is that the primary life is like coming up for air - being aware of certain things that I did not/could not in prior lives for various reasons. However, my feeling that not much is happening - to clarify - is the realization that my 'knowledge' is intellectual (or on the surface appears to be) and not experiential - or not entirely. So, I'm sloughing off old ways of knowing - and trying to discover what I already know & let that lead me. It's a slow process. Meanwhile I try to be grateful - and keep perspective, the bottom line. The responses here & input helped me to understand what I was meaning the other night! Thanks.

Hi Lucius,

Thanks for this! It has really given me great insight into my own experience..