I agree that the Spectre as well as everything else can surprise you with a malfunction, but I never heard of a hard opening on one but I guess that can happen too. Since I jump a 230 its probably a bit more forgiving there. On heading openings aren't a real issue with me but I never roll the nose, don't need to as its simply a method to keep from getting slammed by those other canopies.

Don't get all butt-munched and worked up. At 49 jumps you dont know crap about ANY canopy, especially if you didn't pack em.

I am on the opposite end of the spectrum as you, I jump a Saber1...Sabre1 170. I have put over 250 jumps on it, NEVER A HARD OPENING, yet it is a canopy WELL KNOWN for hard openings.... FYI, the only HARD opening I had was on a rental rig with a Safire 189, it was so hard my right side tingled for 2 days. 3 other jumper complained about that same rig over the next week. Are Safire's crap?

Take a step back and think about the fact u don't know much about canopies.....nor do I.

btw, u may be happy right now but god help u if you ever need customer service...might as well try and fly to the moon.

So let me get this straight, you've done 40 jumps roughly on a spectre and or Sabre 2 collectively....so this must mean on jump 9, two jumps after AFF) you started experimenting with new canopies? And not only experimenting, but downsizing twice? Give me a break kid, lets be serious, you didn't start experimenting with different canopies until your A, and even then that only gives you 24 jumps to form an opinion on two canopies and compare them and rule one completely out. Something isn't adding up, so go over your numbers again, and come back with some realistic data.

Wow, why is this so hard to believe? Did you keep jumping a Navigator after AFF until you got your 'A'? If so, sorry must have been real boring. I used Nav 260s to 230s during AFF. After AFF I started using our rental rigs which is recommended at my DZ. Those happen to be either Sabre2's or Spectres. I weigh 165 and have down sized to a 170 and just bought a 159. Again doesn't seem too fast to me.

'The Sabre2 sucks', is just my opinion... some agree with me and some don't. There must be some validity to it or this thread wouldn't have had more than 3 replies.

It's just my opion... and only matters to me???

I HAVE BOUGHT A SAFIRE2 AND I'M EXTREMELY HAPPY!!!

btw, I jumped a navigator till jump 44, I even took a canopy course at jump 27 with a nav 240. What is your point? fyi, I weigh 155lbs without gear....r u gonna tell me I am TOO safe?

You should hang out with the 8eight Guy....2 peas in a pod..... how old r u? 19? 20?

good luck on your journey

just so u know Stud Boy, at your weight and sea level it is suggested you have a minimum of 260 jumps before jumping a 160 canopy, but of course you have mad skillz; u are the last mofo I would take shoelace advice from, much less canopy advice....I guess u think Toyotas are unreliable cars?

On-heading openings ? Seriously ? What do you expect when an S-folded ball of nylon is lifted off your back at high speed by a center attachment point ?! To promote nose-first (heading setting) inflation, it takes a bit more than just throwing canopy into the wind. Think of how the reserve is packed, and presented to the wind right after the freebag comes off - nose open - nose first. A skydiving main, especially with the nosed rolled and tucked into the packjob is as inhibited as it can be from having an on-heading opening.

Getting acceptable openings on non-square skydiving canopies does not require rolling the nose in any sort of way.

Tucking the nose in the pack job doesn't do anything useful and causes the lines to move towards the outside, possibly causing a line over.

Placing the left and right side nose tapes against their respective sides of the center cell and leaving it open works very well for heading control. Like a BASE or reserve pack job except standing in 6 minutes instead of on the ground in 45.

Interesting thread. Looks like a lot of people with various issues on the Saber2. Hard openings, off heading, need to pack certain ways and be conscious of good body position on every jump. Sounds like a real pain in the ass to me.

I jump a Spectre and never had anything but soft, reliable, consistent and on heading openings on each and every jump regardless of body position or the way its packed. The last thing I want to think about on a jump is how it will open. I know how it will open without any surprises a lot of Saber2 pilots have.

Its also easy to land, and though it may not be a great swooping canopy, I donít do that anyway.

Additionally, I havenít run across any threads here with complaints about Spectres, just the contrary.

That's because the Spectre is probably one of the greatest modern parachute designs.

Interesting thread. Looks like a lot of people with various issues on the Saber2. Hard openings, off heading, need to pack certain ways and be conscious of good body position on every jump. Sounds like a real pain in the ass to me.

I jump a Spectre and never had anything but soft, reliable, consistent and on heading openings on each and every jump regardless of body position or the way its packed. The last thing I want to think about on a jump is how it will open. I know how it will open without any surprises a lot of Saber2 pilots have.

Its also easy to land, and though it may not be a great swooping canopy, I donít do that anyway.

Additionally, I havenít run across any threads here with complaints about Spectres, just the contrary.

That's because the Spectre is probably one of the greatest modern parachute designs.

It might be, personally I was not impressed with the Pulse (i had around 180 jumps), but I HATED the Spectre the few jumps I did with it (around 5 jumps starting around jump 45). The difference between me and the OP is I did NOT assume the problem was the CANOPY and not ME. I plan on participating in a CRW camp in 2 weeks so I can appreciate the 7 cell side of things....plus I want to base jump some day, same reason packing my own shit is a big deal for me lately

So let me get this straight, you've done 40 jumps roughly on a spectre and or Sabre 2 collectively....so this must mean on jump 9, two jumps after AFF) you started experimenting with new canopies? And not only experimenting, but downsizing twice? Give me a break kid, lets be serious, you didn't start experimenting with different canopies until your A, and even then that only gives you 24 jumps to form an opinion on two canopies and compare them and rule one completely out. Something isn't adding up, so go over your numbers again, and come back with some realistic data.

Wow, why is this so hard to believe? Did you keep jumping a Navigator after AFF until you got your 'A'? If so, sorry must have been real boring. I used Nav 260s to 230s during AFF. After AFF I started using our rental rigs which is recommended at my DZ. Those happen to be either Sabre2's or Spectres. I weigh 165 and have down sized to a 170 and just bought a 159. Again doesn't seem too fast to me.

'The Sabre2 sucks', is just my opinion... some agree with me and some don't. There must be some validity to it or this thread wouldn't have had more than 3 replies.

It's just my opion... and only matters to me???

I HAVE BOUGHT A SAFIRE2 AND I'M EXTREMELY HAPPY!!!

btw, I jumped a navigator till jump 44, I even took a canopy course at jump 27 with a nav 240. What is your point? fyi, I weigh 155lbs without gear....r u gonna tell me I am TOO safe?

You should hang out with the 8eight Guy....2 peas in a pod..... how old r u? 19? 20?

good luck on your journey

just so u know Stud Boy, at your weight and sea level it is suggested you have a minimum of 260 jumps before jumping a 160 canopy, but of course you have mad skillz; u are the last mofo I would take shoelace advice from, much less canopy advice....I guess u think Toyotas are unreliable cars?

c u in the incidents forum!

Yeauza! Calm down. It is just my opinion! So many that disagreed with me seemed to feel the need to discredit me and attack me personally. I simply stated my progression of downsizing, I never once said I was good in any way. I always check with the instructors at my DZ before downsizing and they were the one's that recommended I buy a 159. They are, I hope confident in my ability to handle it, as am I.

As the replies show, I am not the only one that feels it is in someways an inferior canopy. Throw my opinion out the window as you have, but I'm sure their all just doing something wrong too.

I invite anyone looking at getting a new intermediate canopy to read all the replies and form their own opinion. We all sure know yours. Thanks for your creative criticisms of me, I'm sure I can learn from them and it will make me a better jumper.

I am more concerned about my openings, especially in larger groups with lower break-offs

How large a group and how low are you opening? Just askin'...

So far 8-way is the largest group I have been in. I think it could still easily or mistakenly put you in a 15 degree track-off angle with another jumper. I would prefer to not make a 90* turn to the person next to me. I feel more comfortable on something other than a Sabre2 when it comes to that. Obviously the more jumpers the less degree of separation will be achieved. That being said I have no plan on jumping with any groups larger than 10 any time soon.

Also, so far all pretty reasonable pull altitudes, usually by 3,500.

Neither have been a real issue yet, and I'm just hoping to keep it that way. And for me it is not jumping a Sabre2.

This is skydiving, not BASE jumping, its not a safety issue. You want on heading openings? then open while tracking with a little bit of forward speed. No one can get consistent on headings falling straight down.

Really? It is a safety issue. Having a 180 when skydiving with groups can turn into a problem, fast. An yes people can get consistent on headings while falling straight down. You might want to get a bit more experience on more than one or two types of parachute before making such a sweeping generalization.

YAWN. Skydiving canopies 'can' open on heading somewhat consistently IF you have forward speed, but falling straight down a column of air(packing the canopy the most commonly taught way), with a canopy that has the tail folded around a nose with no specific cell that will be presented to the wind first is not a reliable method of getting on headings no matter what you say/think.

Maybe when I find the time to get 14,000 posts Ill be able to talk very confidently about things that dont happen too, until then, Im going out jumping, see you in 50 years.

and maybe you should figure out a little bit more about my experience level before telling me how many different canopies I have jumped, just a thought. See Pauls response below if I dont have enough posts to make you believe me(because people with low post numbers couldn't possibly know anything about anything, naturally).

In reply to:

[likestojump] the Saber2 sucks! In Reply To

On-heading openings ? Seriously ? What do you expect when an S-folded ball of nylon is lifted off your back at high speed by a center attachment point ?! A skydiving main, especially with the nosed rolled and tucked into the packjob is as inhibited as it can be from having an on-heading opening.

YAWN. Skydiving canopies 'can' open on heading somewhat consistently IF you have forward speed

I get consistent on-heading openings with my Samurai on real clear-and-pulls with belly-to-the wind.

In reply to:

but falling straight down a column of air(packing the canopy the most commonly taught way), with a canopy that has the tail folded around a nose with no specific cell that will be presented to the wind first is not a reliable method of getting on headings no matter what you say/think.

How hot does it get at Mile Hi anyway? Are we talking Mile-and-a-half Hi? Higher?

That's something to think about for sure. That 159 will turn itself into a 139 or a 129 right quick. The ground, however, will remain the same hardness all year long. Whatever you do, don't gain any weight or wear a weight belt.

How hot does it get at Mile Hi anyway? Are we talking Mile-and-a-half Hi? Higher?

That's something to think about for sure. That 159 will turn itself into a 139 or a 129 right quick. The ground, however, will remain the same hardness all year long. Whatever you do, don't gain any weight or wear a weight belt.

Yeah, Mile-Hi is about 4,900'. You definitely fall faster here and as you said even more so when it's hot. We also get a fair amount of turbulence due to those two things. I will likely have a good 100 more jumps on the 159 before it starts getting hot again. I am comfortable with the thinner air as it is really all I know.

I have also jumped at Skydive Long Island and CSC and the difference in canopy speed was definitely noticeable.

> but falling straight down a column of air(packing the canopy the most >commonly taught way), with a canopy that has the tail folded around a >nose with no specific cell that will be presented to the wind first is not a >reliable method of getting on headings no matter what you say/think.

I get solid on heading openings 95% of the time with my Nitro - just falling down a column of air.

>On-heading openings ? Seriously ? What do you expect when an S-folded >ball of nylon is lifted off your back at high speed by a center attachment >point ?

A good opening if the pack job is good; otherwise a poor opening.

>A skydiving main, especially with the nosed rolled and tucked into the >packjob is as inhibited as it can be from having an on-heading opening.

And there is the problem. You donít even know what it is you donít know. You are regurgitating all this crap you have heard other people say with no real understanding of what it means. Attached is some light reading for and an indication of where you are headed.

And there is the problem. You donít even know what it is you donít know. You are regurgitating all this crap you have heard other people say with no real understanding of what it means. Attached is some light reading for and an indication of where you are headed.

Sparky

Thanks Sparky,

They are quite vigilant about teaching us as students about our higher altitude, thinner air, hot air and turbulence, and their effects on canopy control.

I do not take skydiving and safety lightly. I don't plan on swooping my Safire2 159. It is not a hp canopy and would be considered a similar performance canopy as the Sabre2.

If it was totally crazy for me to get the 159 I hope my dz instructors would have advised me against it. They know me and I will listen to them. If I get hurt on it I will let you know so you can tell me, "I told you so."

The following is cut directly from NZ Aerosports. If you don't like or agree with it, please feel free to contact them directly. -------------------------------------------------------------

The Safire 2 is an all-round, hassle free, mid-range canopy offering the benefits of 9 cell performance, without getting radical or requiring any special attention. It's simple to use, with consistent, reliable openings, easy packing and great landings.

This canopy is a versatile performer; suitable as a first canopy when lightly loaded, and equally useful as a modern mid-range performing wing at heavier wing-loadings.

The result - an impressively balanced all-round wing offering

ē superior opening qualities ē exceptional glide and range ē outstanding slow flight stability ē superior safety ----------------------------------------------------------- I am happy to receive legitimate advice, and to be corrected when I'm wrong. I want to learn all I can to better my jumping experience. But please save your name calling and personal attacks for the other people who want to "learn" from you.

That's a great canopy and was top of my list until I learned first hand that it can snivel quite bit especially if the lines have some wear. You might find that desirable. Every canopy has strengths & weaknesses.

Find one you like, don't judge by the marketing on a web site.

I don't think you're gonna change your canopy now, but stay safe and take a canopy control course, it is money well spent, and you will get more enjoyment out of your wing.

On-heading openings ? Seriously ? What do you expect when an S-folded ball of nylon is lifted off your back at high speed by a center attachment point ?! To promote nose-first (heading setting) inflation, it takes a bit more than just throwing canopy into the wind. Think of how the reserve is packed, and presented to the wind right after the freebag comes off - nose open - nose first. A skydiving main, especially with the nosed rolled and tucked into the packjob is as inhibited as it can be from having an on-heading opening.

Getting acceptable openings on non-square skydiving canopies does not require rolling the nose in any sort of way.

Tucking the nose in the pack job doesn't do anything useful and causes the lines to move towards the outside, possibly causing a line over.

Rolling the nose must be the greatest bit of packing voodoo/ rote learning around.

The amount of posts here complaining about unpredictable openings on snivelly canopies like the Spectre/Saf2 where the OP has been rolling the nose just shows how many people genuinely don't understand what they are trying to achieve with the component parts of their pack jobs.

>A skydiving main, especially with the nosed rolled and tucked into the >packjob is as inhibited as it can be from having an on-heading opening.

Well, there's your problem right there. Don't do that!

wow, we really are running circles, aren't we ?

Please remind me and others what is the most common advice for people suffering from hard openings ? Yop, it's "roll the nose, and push as far into the packjob as possible". What does that do ? a) inhibit the heading, as that promotes tail first expansion, instead of nose first inflation b) causes the linegroups inside the packjob to shift, and further distorts the symmetry c) prolongs the snivels, which does in fact turn into a softer opening

On-heading openings ? Seriously ? What do you expect when an S-folded ball of nylon is lifted off your back at high speed by a center attachment point ?! A skydiving main, especially with the nosed rolled and tucked into the packjob is as inhibited as it can be from having an on-heading opening.

Paul=correct. Diablopilot=not so much.

(BTW - different Paul)

On the other hand, I get mostly on heading openings on my Spectre 210 loaded at about 1.4.

They're not usually more than 30 degrees off either way, and are often dead on. To me, that's pretty good opening performance.

I'm certainly still going to a place that I have been looking, as opposed to somewhere behind me. How far off do you allow before you call it "off heading"? If you want to talk about only the dead-on, then it is probably about half.

I pack the nose wide open, and I take care not to roll the tail up much at all. Also, I am anal about keeping the pack job symmetrical, and getting it into the bag straight, which is a whole lot different from what I most often see on the packing floor at the dz. For instance, I see many people almost toss the cocooned canopy to the ground. I don't do that. I have one hand holding the lines and slider in position, while the other arm is stretched out supporting the rest of the pack job, and I gently lower it to the ground with a minimum of disturbance to the package.

Essentially, I am using the same sorts of goals I use when packing a reserve, though for a main, I am a bit more lax. I am a little slower than some of the fastest packers, but I think it is worth it.

So, I think on heading openings are a real possibility, but it takes more careful packing than most of what I commonly see.

That's something to think about for sure. That 159 will turn itself into a 139 or a 129 right quick. The ground, however, will remain the same hardness all year long. Whatever you do, don't gain any weight or wear a weight belt.

Canopies fly up to 2 sizes smaller than they do at sea level.

Brian Germain's statement that canopy size should be increased approximately 10 square feet per 2000 feet of density altitude is consistent with this (IOW, you want 40 square feet more over your head).