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Re: Arum in Danger of Mis-Handling Pacquiao

But here's the difference between my assessment of Adrien Broner and the assessment of many others: I have no like nor any dislike for Broner. Zero. I'm completely indifferent.

With all due respect to Dino's opinion, he has a bias qua his position. In addition to that, he doesn't like him. That feeling is shared by many. I get that. Considering that, it is nearly impossible to evaluate him objectively.

When he was being lauded on HBO, I failed to see what the hoopla was about. Then I sat down and looked at him closely. Fights, training habits, testimonies. As many of you may sense, I'm big on mental intangibles. I looked at that too.

Then I spoke to people in and around his camp, people that had gone through his camp, prospects, current world champions and super trainers. Guys with no dog in the race. Emmanuel Stweard. Tim Bradley. Andre Ward. Virgil Hunter. Naazim Richardson. Albert Bell.

They all said the same thing. With conviction. I can't just disregard that.

That whole "give belts to everyone" is sort of silly. Honestly. OK, the 130 belt means nothing to me. It was a vacant belt against a jabroni, and the fringe WBO trinket at that. Most guys are steered towards a title. Like Lomachenko.

(That said, to be fair, this was the very same Dollar Tree plastic belt Oscar DLH was given beating who could be the worst champion in history in Jimmi Bredahl. Not to mention the organization in which HOF'er DLH won half of his divisional titles, if I'm not mistaken. And the WBO has more legitimacy now than it did then, though I have no idea why. And I've seen far bigger gift-wrapped titles than the fringe belt awarded to Broner. Chavez Jr.? Erik Morales? )

What was he doing at 135 then? Smashing every guy he fought, won the title in his first outing there while the rest of the division ran from him while he was trying to unify, even though he was the biggest fight for any other titleholder.

Lastly, he jumped two weight classes and dethroned Paulie Malignaggi. Regardless of what anyone thinks of Paulie, he went overseas and a TOOK that belt from the undefeated titlist. Even if people disregard his legitimacy as champion, I don't see any other lightweight jumping up and challenging Malignaggi to that extent -- especially not a fabrication.

This is just speculation however; we don't know any of this. Unlike everything else I said, which we DO know.

Now on to Broner the man. Do I find the hubris annoying? Sometimes.

I also found it annoying that he was so quick to self-laud and compare his skill set on Twitter to Floyd's "me and big bro make it look so a easy that's why people hate" or "me and big bro got that s*** you can't teach."

But I won't let a public persona or certain immature behavioral traits cloud my evaluation of his grit, work ethic (despite what many of you think, he's one of the hardest workers in the game; that comes straight from those same people), skill, determination, accomplishments and so forth.

Do I think he's as good as he says? Absolutely not. Do I think he's as bad as people make him out to be now? Hell no.

Skibbz, to address your question from yesterday:

- In two years, he will have joined an upper echelon of a select few fighters in history -- less than 15 (!) -- to have won titles in four different weight divisions, while looking towards challenging for a fifth.

- He will be a PPV fighter, drawing between 300,000 and 500,000 buys on average while producing massive ratings in his premium cable outings.

- He will be at least a Top 5-10 pound-for-pound ranked fighter.

- Though this is more fluid and unpredictable, I suspect he will have beaten Lucas Matthyse, Marcos Maidana, John Molina, Robert Guerrero and/or Amir Khan, or perhaps some other guys who may emerge.

That looks pretty good to me. And oh yeah, I'm willing to take bets on my predictions, with the exception of the ones with the names since boxing is volatile and things can change quickly.

Wow! The Shadow, unless you're being a bit hyperboIic, I may have to ride outta hiding in plain sight and take you on your bets. The road will not be good for AB. He is a dime a dozen flash-in-the-pants imitator.

The road won't be just rocky for him, but full of stink -- I mean sink -- holes. Hehe! Holla!

Re: Arum in Danger of Mis-Handling Pacquiao

Originally Posted by Radam G

Wow! The Shadow, unless you're being a bit hyperboIic, I may have to ride outta hiding in plain sight and take you on your bets. The rode will not be good for AB. He is a dime a dozen flash-in-the-pants imitator.

The road won't be just rocky for him, but full of stink -- I mean sink -- holes. Hehe! Holla!

Not hyperbolic at all. I was quite conservative in my projections, actually. Here's the thing:

1) Ring already ranked him something like 5 or 6. So he's accomplished that already, whether people thought that ranking as legit or not.

2) He will likely fight for a vacant 140 title this year. And he will win. That's four right there. He's already got three. So that won't be too hard.

3) His drawing power is beyond dispute. It really is. He will continue to draw big numbers. And all he has to do is draw 300k for my predictions to come true and pull the premium numbers he's been pulling.

In other words, for him to do what I predicted, he just has to stagnate.

Re: Arum in Danger of Mis-Handling Pacquiao

But here's the difference between my assessment of Adrien Broner and the assessment of many others: I have no like nor any dislike for Broner. Zero. I'm completely indifferent.

With all due respect to Dino's opinion, he has a bias qua his position. In addition to that, he doesn't like him. That feeling is shared by many. I get that. Considering that, it is nearly impossible to evaluate him objectively.

When he was being lauded on HBO, I failed to see what the hoopla was about. Then I sat down and looked at him closely. Fights, training habits, testimonies. As many of you may sense, I'm big on mental intangibles. I looked at that too.

Then I spoke to people in and around his camp, people that had gone through his camp, prospects, current world champions and super trainers. Guys with no dog in the race. Emmanuel Stweard. Tim Bradley. Andre Ward. Virgil Hunter. Naazim Richardson. Albert Bell.

They all said the same thing. With conviction. I can't just disregard that.

That whole "give belts to everyone" is sort of silly. Honestly. OK, the 130 belt means nothing to me. It was a vacant belt against a jabroni, and the fringe WBO trinket at that. Most guys are steered towards a title. Like Lomachenko.

(That said, to be fair, this was the very same Dollar Tree plastic belt Oscar DLH was given beating who could be the worst champion in history in Jimmi Bredahl. Not to mention the organization in which HOF'er DLH won half of his divisional titles, if I'm not mistaken. And the WBO has more legitimacy now than it did then, though I have no idea why. And I've seen far bigger gift-wrapped titles than the fringe belt awarded to Broner. Chavez Jr.? Erik Morales? )

What was he doing at 135 then? Smashing every guy he fought, won the title in his first outing there while the rest of the division ran from him while he was trying to unify, even though he was the biggest fight for any other titleholder.

Lastly, he jumped two weight classes and dethroned Paulie Malignaggi. Regardless of what anyone thinks of Paulie, he went overseas and a TOOK that belt from the undefeated titlist. Even if people disregard his legitimacy as champion, I don't see any other lightweight jumping up and challenging Malignaggi to that extent -- especially not a fabrication.

This is just speculation however; we don't know any of this. Unlike everything else I said, which we DO know.

Now on to Broner the man. Do I find the hubris annoying? Sometimes.

I also found it annoying that he was so quick to self-laud and compare his skill set on Twitter to Floyd's "me and big bro make it look so a easy that's why people hate" or "me and big bro got that s*** you can't teach."

But I won't let a public persona or certain immature behavioral traits cloud my evaluation of his grit, work ethic (despite what many of you think, he's one of the hardest workers in the game; that comes straight from those same people), skill, determination, accomplishments and so forth.

Do I think he's as good as he says? Absolutely not. Do I think he's as bad as people make him out to be now? Hell no.

Skibbz, to address your question from yesterday:

- In two years, he will have joined an upper echelon of a select few fighters in history -- less than 15 (!) -- to have won titles in four different weight divisions, while looking towards challenging for a fifth.

- He will be a PPV fighter, drawing between 300,000 and 500,000 buys on average while producing massive ratings in his premium cable outings.

- He will be at least a Top 5-10 pound-for-pound ranked fighter.

- Though this is more fluid and unpredictable, I suspect he will have beaten Lucas Matthyse, Marcos Maidana, John Molina, Robert Guerrero and/or Amir Khan, or perhaps some other guys who may emerge.

That looks pretty good to me. And oh yeah, I'm willing to take bets on my predictions, with the exception of the ones with the names since boxing is volatile and things can change quickly.

I hate to say it Shadow, but you seem to have blinded yourself with a whole lot of jive. I'll do my best to set things straight.

First off Broner does not beat Marquez. Even Marquez with one arm would beat Broner. Broner's too light, hasn't got the skill, power or experience to deal with Marquez. I guarantee you 95% of the boxing media and scribes will agree with me on this one, if not 100. I've said it before, and its not a point that I think requires any further discussion.

Second, and I've said this before, Broner is not one of the hardest workers in the game. That's bordering on disrespectful to hard working fighters to say that. Broner eats junk food on the regular, drinks alcohol between camps, regularly, doesn't get the prescribed amounts of rest, balloons between fights (big time- the only AB he is then is 'All Belly'). He doesn't even run- he uses a treadmill. And to top it all off, he seems to take pride in these things: promoting film of himself downing bubbly by the bottle, and eating pizza on his bed at night. That doesn't sound to me like a hard worker, and I could name you a couple of British light welters who work a damn site harder. There's amateurs I know that can do better than that.

Now, to address your predictions- again, you're way off.

Since we're in the realm of prediction, its fine if you disagree with me, but you've got to base predictions on facts, and not allow people to pull the wool over your eyes.

Broner is unlikely to win a title at 147. He doesn't belong at that weight, and he knows it. This is a proven fact- he tried to move up and failed miserably, and he didn't exactly fight an A list guy. For him to successfully move up to 147, earn himself a title shot, challenge for it and take it, all in two years, is beyond hopeful: it's plain fanciful. And you think he'll be challenging for a 5th?! I presume you mean light middleweight?

The only way I can see him challenging for more weights in the immediate future is if it's a contest of who can pile on the most pounds of fat- then I can see him challenging for heavyweight!

The only way Broner will make the top 10 P4P, let alone top 5, is if he's writing the rankings himself. I'd like to see what you're basing that prediction off, because he doesn't even look close at the moment. To make such an improvement in the space of 24 months maximum is ludicrous. He wont even be close.

He maybe has a chance at giving one or two of the guys you mentioned a good fight, but it's unlikely he'd beat them. Matthyse would KO him flat, Maidana already proved too much, and Khan would box his ears off for 12. Guerrero might be a better option, though he's an unknown quantity until Saturday night.

I'd be willing to take a significant bet on any of those. Consider my hand shaken.

And as for Broner's potential performance against the 'light welterweight bums' as you put Britain's 140 pounders in another post- singling out Curtis Woodhouse for particularly harsh treatment- let me fill you in on a couple of facts. Curtis Woodhouse was a pro footballer until not so long ago, and is doing very well in the pro boxing game considering this. Broner, in his last fight, failed to dispatch one Carlos Molina, ranked at 154 globally at light welterweight. 154. And Broner- the soon to be top 5 pound for pound, the guy who will soon have beaten a host of top 140 and 147, the guy who will be one of the best PPV draws around-couldn't deal with him.

Couldn't even knock him down.

154th

Where is Curtis Woodhouse ranked, I hear you ask.

Curtis Woodhouse is ranked number 29, and you thin Broner will walk straight through him?

Re: Arum in Danger of Mis-Handling Pacquiao

Say what you want, Oscar fought everybody. Everybody! Let's see how many wins your guy compiles against the likes of fighters the caliber of Sweet Pea, Macho, JC Superstar, Tito, etc.

Doesn't matter in this day and age if he wins nine titles. He's not going to be a top five guy ever. He's already showing fraying around the edges, and I believe he was hoping they pulled the plug in the fight where he was rolling around on the floor. I have a history of looking for bells and whistles for signs of when a guy can be made to quit. Your guy looks like a slot machine right before it pays off.

Don't ever confuse my dislike for a fighter having any impact on my opinion or observation. Never cared for Sugar Ray Leonard. He never struck me as being remotely genuine. That said, if someone said he was the best ever I'd have no quarrel with the comment. As they both fought at welterweight, if they were matched in Imaginaryland, who'd win? Personally, I'd bet on Broner. To live.

Tommy Hearns was another 47 pounder. Can you wrap your imagination around the destruction Hearns would have wrought? You can't and you know why? Because even in the deepest recesses of make believe time, Broner's not climbing through the ropes to tangle with Hearns, who would run him out of the building. And Leonard was the first to hand Tommy a defeat.

At this point your guy's questionable wins column is exceeding his great opponent column. Unless they have changed the qualifications of being a top five pound for pounder, this is a non issue.

Re: Arum in Danger of Mis-Handling Pacquiao

Originally Posted by thegreyman

I hate to say it Shadow, but you seem to have blinded yourself with a whole lot of jive. I'll do my best to set things straight.

First off Broner does not beat Marquez. Even Marquez with one arm would beat Broner. Broner's too light, hasn't got the skill, power or experience to deal with Marquez. I guarantee you 95% of the boxing media and scribes will agree with me on this one, if not 100. I've said it before, and its not a point that I think requires any further discussion.

Second, and I've said this before, Broner is not one of the hardest workers in the game. That's bordering on disrespectful to hard working fighters to say that. Broner eats junk food on the regular, drinks alcohol between camps, regularly, doesn't get the prescribed amounts of rest, balloons between fights (big time- the only AB he is then is 'All Belly'). He doesn't even run- he uses a treadmill. And to top it all off, he seems to take pride in these things: promoting film of himself downing bubbly by the bottle, and eating pizza on his bed at night. That doesn't sound to me like a hard worker, and I could name you a couple of British light welters who work a damn site harder. There's amateurs I know that can do better than that.

Now, to address your predictions- again, you're way off.

Since we're in the realm of prediction, its fine if you disagree with me, but you've got to base predictions on facts, and not allow people to pull the wool over your eyes.

Broner is unlikely to win a title at 147. He doesn't belong at that weight, and he knows it. This is a proven fact- he tried to move up and failed miserably, and he didn't exactly fight an A list guy. For him to successfully move up to 147, earn himself a title shot, challenge for it and take it, all in two years, is beyond hopeful: it's plain fanciful. And you think he'll be challenging for a 5th?! I presume you mean light middleweight?

The only way I can see him challenging for more weights in the immediate future is if it's a contest of who can pile on the most pounds of fat- then I can see him challenging for heavyweight!

The only way Broner will make the top 10 P4P, let alone top 5, is if he's writing the rankings himself. I'd like to see what you're basing that prediction off, because he doesn't even look close at the moment. To make such an improvement in the space of 24 months maximum is ludicrous. He wont even be close.

He maybe has a chance at giving one or two of the guys you mentioned a good fight, but it's unlikely he'd beat them. Matthyse would KO him flat, Maidana already proved too much, and Khan would box his ears off for 12. Guerrero might be a better option, though he's an unknown quantity until Saturday night.

I'd be willing to take a significant bet on any of those. Consider my hand shaken.

And as for Broner's potential performance against the 'light welterweight bums' as you put Britain's 140 pounders in another post- singling out Curtis Woodhouse for particularly harsh treatment- let me fill you in on a couple of facts. Curtis Woodhouse was a pro footballer until not so long ago, and is doing very well in the pro boxing game considering this. Broner, in his last fight, failed to dispatch one Carlos Molina, ranked at 154 globally at light welterweight. 154. And Broner- the soon to be top 5 pound for pound, the guy who will soon have beaten a host of top 140 and 147, the guy who will be one of the best PPV draws around-couldn't deal with him.

Couldn't even knock him down.

154th

Where is Curtis Woodhouse ranked, I hear you ask.

Curtis Woodhouse is ranked number 29, and you thin Broner will walk straight through him?

So Shadow, what makes you so sure?

He is an incredibly hard worker. That is a fact. You're basing your opinion off what you see publicly. So I do understand what you're saying and where you're coming from.

But please be mindful of this: I state what I state based on the first-hand testimonies (not info designed for public consumption) of world class fighters and trainers -- remember, I have been a reporter doing interviews, building a source network of A-list athletes since 2000 -- who have no dollars invested in him. Plus I've seen it with my own two eyes.

And my eyes are still pretty darn good for an old man.

What surprises me is you seem to blatantly disregard those testimonies, which tells me you're not having an open mind as it pertains to him. You seem to dislike him, which is cool, but it also strips you completely of any rational objectivity based on some of the stuff you say.

(Re: AB vs. JMM, that other stuff is speculation; we don't know till it happens so I'm not going to entertain that too much. That's my opinion, you have yours. And that's cool.)

And those guys from the UK are so pathetic, from a competitive standpoint, in the grand scheme of things they aren't even worth mentioning. Even his most ardent detractor would concede that without hesitation.

I know exactly where they're ranked, I know exactly what their pedigree is and I know exactly what they can do.

Gavin Rees likely smokes them all; every single one of them.

You remember Rees, right? One of the best UK light welterweights in recent memory? (Just give me 1st place for this paragraph alone.)

(For the record, I love Woodhouse for that troll hunt! Super cool dude. But personal admiration doesn't equate to professional ability. He's a nice story. World level? Not so much.)

OK, so he didn't stop Molina. NO FIGHTER at the world class level (Dgontay Wilder is not competing at world championship level yet) has a 100% KO level. Vitali Klitschko didn't stop Shannon Briggs. Couldn't even knock him down. So all that means nothing. He won by wide UD.

(I can't believe I'm even having this conversation. If one is so biased to think a domestic level club fighter from the UK beats Adrien Broner, I'm genuinely concerned I'm disqualifying myself from placing for the same reason. In which case, Dino, you need to look closer because the integrity of the competition is severely jeopardized. Once I get that belt I will have earned it fair and square. And I will wear it all over Vegas like I'm Charlie Z.)

All this is just banter, however. We don't really know what happens in the future. He could break a leg tomorrow. Woodhouse could discover A-side Meth. So let's just take the bet and we will revisit the conversation in two years.

As for the predictions. I'm way off? I don't think so. I'm not even close to being close to being way off.

Here's the reality: He doesn't have to improve much; he doesn't even have to improve at all! All he has to do is stagnate to meet those projections.

As I mentioned, the facts tell us this:

- Just a few months ago, he was ranked in the P4P list by Sports Illustrated and Ring Magazine. Look it up. So he's already accomplished this. No ludicrous improvement necessary.

- Four divisions? Easy work. Yet this is probably the most risky of my predictions. Here's what we do know: He became a three-division titlist at 23 last year. He has a title shot long up for him at 140 this year. Little improvement necessary.

Re: Arum in Danger of Mis-Handling Pacquiao

Say what you want, Oscar fought everybody. Everybody! Let's see how many wins your guy compiles against the likes of fighters the caliber of Sweet Pea, Macho, JC Superstar, Tito, etc.

Doesn't matter in this day and age if he wins nine titles. He's not going to be a top five guy ever. He's already showing fraying around the edges, and I believe he was hoping they pulled the plug in the fight where he was rolling around on the floor. I have a history of looking for bells and whistles for signs of when a guy can be made to quit. Your guy looks like a slot machine right before it pays off.

Don't ever confuse my dislike for a fighter having any impact on my opinion or observation. Never cared for Sugar Ray Leonard. He never struck me as being remotely genuine. That said, if someone said he was the best ever I'd have no quarrel with the comment. As they both fought at welterweight, if they were matched in Imaginaryland, who'd win? Personally, I'd bet on Broner. To live.

Tommy Hearns was another 47 pounder. Can you wrap your imagination around the destruction Hearns would have wrought? You can't and you know why? Because even in the deepest recesses of make believe time, Broner's not climbing through the ropes to tangle with Hearns, who would run him out of the building. And Leonard was the first to hand Tommy a defeat.

At this point your guy's questionable wins column is exceeding his great opponent column. Unless they have changed the qualifications of being a top five pound for pounder, this is a non issue.

That said, we still love you.

I know. I love you too Dino.

But like I've said over and over, he's not my guy. I'm completely and utterly indifferent towards him.

What I'm NOT indifferent to is such nonsense that a former pro soccer player -- whose personal zenith was winning a national championship via SD -- beats him. That's silly and you know it.

I bet you have 126-pound guys in your stable with less than 10 fights that would blast that boy so bad he'll go try out for Ipswich or Millwall or take up managing full-time so fast he'll beat his own personal best.

(Again, I have so much respect for Woodhouse. He's one of the guys I look up to in my own training. But I'm not an idiot or seduced by his incredible achievement to the point where he beats that buffoon Broner.)

And yes, Oscar fought everyone. But keep in mind, Broner just turned 24, he smashed the best 135 with ease, the lightweights were sprinting from him and he just moved up from that division ONE YEAR AGO.

Also, he was almost considered Top 5 last year! (Though, for the sake of clarity and fairness, I don't respect The Ring like I once did. That said, their opinion still is recognized in the world of boxing.)

Again, I reiterate: he's 24. He will have time to face real opponents. Andre Ward at 23 was fighting six-rounders, only three fights removed from nearly getting stopped Darnell Boone for crying out loud. So let's see how this plays out.

Now, if his record is still filled with those pizzeria boys three years from now, five years from now, once his career is over? Then OK, then we can compare him to Oscar who has the body of work of a long illustrious career's body of work to draw from.

Fact is Broner's reached this feat faster than anyone in eye cent history, if not ever. Compare his record with any other top fighter today at a similar age. I bet his resume holds up just fine.

Re: Arum in Danger of Mis-Handling Pacquiao

I'm not entirely sure of what you're saying Shadow- I was just pointing out that Broner couldn't deal with a guy ranked at 154th globally. You said Broner would steam roll a guy ranked at 29th, just because he's British. Again, you haven't explained your reasoning behind this. It seems illogical to me to be so certain of such a thing.

That's not bias, that's rational thinking, and critical judgement of two boxers' respective abilities. I'm merely using Curtis Woodhouse as an example because you happened to single him out and insult him.

You need to take a long hard look at Broner fight- have a look at his boxing skills, because that's all that matters at the end of the day. He can be ranked #1 by WBC, WBA and IBF for all I care, but if he hasn't got the skills, he hasn't got the skills.

If I want to judge a fighter, I look at their ability, I don't base my opinions upon what others tell me about them, or upon my own opinions of their personality. Broner still drinks, Broner still eats crap, Broner still balloons between fights. Whether you like it or not, those are the facts of the situation.

And no Shadow, disagreeing with me wont affect my judgement of your posts- I had hoped we were a little more mature than that on these forums.