You must know government is trying to compromise on climate change, by throwing money around, when what needs to be done is to admit global warming is now dangerous enough, to justify 1. CO2-neutral biomass development, including from hemp and switchgrass, and 2. radical re-greening, of all available areas.

Since we aren't arguing, about how government is wasting money, let's end that costly drug war, RIGHT NOW, or shut up, since if you don't want an end to some war, you don't really want to save real money.

Since we aren't arguing about how Greenland's ice is melting, let's review Antarctic ice:

The continent of Antarctica has been losing more than 100 cubic kilometers (24 cubic miles) of ice per year since 2002.

The Antarctic ice sheet. East Antarctica is much higher in elevation than West Antarctica.

Let's have a look, at ALL the Antarctic ice. It seems Antarctic ice is generally on the decline:

There has been lots of talk lately about Antarctica and whether or not the continent's giant ice sheet is melting. One new paper 1, which states there&#8217;s less surface melting recently than in past years, has been cited as "proof" that there&#8217;s no global warming. Other evidence that the amount of sea ice around Antarctica seems to be increasing slightly 2-4 is being used in the same way. But both of these data points are misleading. Gravity data collected from space using NASA's Grace satellite show that Antarctica has been losing more than a hundred cubic kilometers (24 cubic miles) of ice each year since 2002. The latest data reveal that Antarctica is losing ice at an accelerating rate, too. How is it possible for surface melting to decrease, but for the continent to lose mass anyway? The answer boils down to the fact that ice can flow without melting.

Two-thirds of Antarctica is a high, cold desert. Known as East Antarctica, this section has an average altitude of about 2 kilometer (1.2 miles), higher than the American Colorado Plateau. There is a continent about the size of Australia underneath all this ice; the ice sheet sitting on top averages at a little over 2 kilometer (1.2 miles) thick. If all of this ice melted, it would raise global sea level by about 60 meter (197 feet). But little, if any, surface warming is occurring over East Antarctica. Radar and laser-based satellite data show a little mass loss at the edges of East Antarctica, which is being partly offset by accumulation of snow in the interior, although a very recent result from the NASA/German Aerospace Center's Gravity Recovery and Climate Experiment (Grace) suggests that since 2006 there has been more ice loss from East Antarctica than previously thought 5. Overall, not much is going on in East Antarctica -- yet.

West Antarctica is very different. Instead of a single continent, it is a series of islands covered by ice -- think of it as a frozen Hawaii, with penguins. Because it's a group of islands, much of the West Antarctic Ice Sheet (WAIS, in the jargon) is actually sitting on the floor of the Southern Ocean, not on dry land. Parts of it are more than 1.7 kilometer (1 mile) below sea level. Pine Island is the largest of these islands and the largest ice stream in West Antarctica is called Pine Island Glacier. The WAIS, if it melted completely, would raise sea level by 5 to 7 meter (16 to 23 feet). And the Pine Island Glacier would contribute about 10 percent of that.

Since the early 1990s, European and Canadian satellites have been collecting radar data from West Antarctica. These radar data can reveal ice motion and, by the late 1990s, there was enough data for scientists to measure the annual motion of the Pine Island Glacier. Using radar information collected between 1992 and 1996, oceanographer Eric Rignot, based at NASA&#8217;s Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL), found that the Pine Island Glacier's "grounding line" -- the line between the glacier's floating section and the part of the glacier that rests on the sea floor -- had retreated rapidly towards the land. That meant that the glacier was losing mass. He attributed the retreat to the warming waters around West Antarctica 6. But with only a few years of data, he couldn't say whether the retreat was a temporary, natural anomaly or a longer-term trend from global warming.

------------------------

Does anyone allege the warming will NOT accelerate, when temperatures have always been forced up, by rise in CO2, CO2 is hurtling upward, at 400 ppm, well above the usual Holocene maximum, of 280 ppm, and it is accelerating, while currently ~10x faster, than during the PETM extinction? Do you have a clue, temperature will certainly ACCELERATE, to keep up, with the jetting CO2?

If you don't believe in AGW, you can be even more ridiculous, by denying global warming. You can be worse, by denying we need to re-green, radically. You can be even worse, by alleging money is being spent, which should not be spent, on re-greening, while not properly accounting, for any money you mention. From melting Antarctic and Greenland ice, the sea level is going to RISE, during all the hedging, against global warming.

HEY. People did a lot of damage, and even if people aren't doing ALL the damage, to an environment people control, people need to fix the problem, or everybody can die.

It's like the HIV problem, back when male bath-house patrons used to trick and shoot speed, until their lethal dose migrated, all the way through AIDS, to death. The wild boys are DEAD, and the bath-houses all closed down.

The cumulative actions of all of society affects every member of society. When society as a whole is making an extremely serious mistake, one that will affect a hundred generations after us, then those who understand what is happening have to speak out. Those that remain willfully ignorant, or in denial, because they prefer a world the "way things oughta be" rather than reality, will find that reality will not ignore them or their children.

Tell you what, if you're so damn sure about all this, feel free move the hell away from the water's edge and leave the rest of us alone.

Click to expand...

Hey! Enemaflowmeter!Not only am I sure about what is happening, I hang at USMB because at least two of the other posters know more about science, etc. than I know, but I go somewhere else, and I know more than anybody else.

One difference at this forum, the rules allow me to tell you retards how stupid you are, and you are really stupid. You wouldn't be able to go to somewhere I am, come up to me, in real life, and tell me to move, unless you claim gang turf, so enjoy the forum.

In America, criminal gangs are all over the place, but Enemaflowmeter, over here doesn't have the vital components, to wander up to somebody at a science thread and order him off, which are GUNS and HOMIES. You have retards, wandering out of special class, so O.R. and I might get lonesome and send PMs, otherwise.

I'll be trying to figure out how stupid efm is, since he already marked himself, as a fucktard, in a pack. If efm continues to hang, hey, I get to see how stupid he is, since intelligence testing would be wasted.

Here is an interesting plot, of Arctic and Antarctic ice anomalies, which may be explainable, due to the fact that Antarctic sea ice has been gathering, possibly because winds may be favorable, to sea ice accretion. More on that, later. The water temperature is rising, overall, so this subject deserves a post.

The sea ice all melts, pretty much, so the perennial ice loss referred to in the OP or elsewhere, with any on-land melt, from Greenland or elsewhere is the critical measure. Hey! If it is on land, and it melts, it isn't already displacing sea water. So more of land melt goes into a system, with rising temperatures, which is goosing SLR, threatening our shorelines.

If temperatures are 8-20 C hotter, than today's global average, that ice might melt and really, REALLY screw things up, for any humans, left alive. This could take more than a couple of hundred years, but don't underestimate human sociopaths. They could multiply, like pond scum, send the temperature way up, and take out ALL the ice.

But will they do that? Humans might re-green. We'll have to wait and see.

A tuya is a volcano that erupted under a glacier. The Vatnajökull glacier in Europe is a temperate glacier covering about 8,300 square kilometers in the SE part of Iceland. Volcanic fissure systems of the Mid-Atlantic Ridge plate boundary are partly covered by the western part of the ice sheet. Two major volcanic centers lie beneath the ice, the Bardarbunga volcanic centre and the Grimsvötn volcanic centre both with large subglacial caldera depressions. [Source: Nordisk Vulkanologisk Institut (Nordic Volcanological Institute, Iceland) Website, 2001]

Glaciers and Global Warming

Worldwide glaciers are shrinking. Many blame global warming, which seems to be causing more snowfall in the winter but more melting in the summer. Many glaciers are melting rapidly with the pace having picked up in the last decade. Glaciers have almost vanished from Africa and Papua New Guinea.

In the Caucasus half of all glaciers have disappeared in the last 100 years. Mt. Kilimanjaros ice cap has shrunk by half in the last 40 years and by 80 percent in the last 100 years. By some estimates it could be ice free in as little as 15 years. Glaciers in the some parts of the Alps and the Andes are shrinking at an alarming rate and some worry they could disappear in the coming decade.

In the 1980s and 1990s glaciers in the Alps have been melting faster but ice covers in Scandinavia, Greenland, Iceland and New Zealand have been growing.

In 2008, a total of 70 Swiss glaciers were retreating and five were advancing according to the Swiss Glacier Monitoring network. The Aletsch glacier, the largest in the Alps and a major water source for the Rhine, has been retreating for about 150 years yet it still holds 27 million tons of ice, enough to fill 12 million Olympic-size swimming pools.

Run off from melting glaciers and ice caps is raising sea levels by 1.2 centimeters a year. Estimates vary but glacier and mountain caps could contribute 70 centimeters to global sea levels if they were all to melt.

The melting of glaciers isnt necessarily tied to global warming. Scientists say it can take decades for a glacier to respond to warming and that melting is occurring is still partly the warming after the Little Age from 1450 to 1890.

-----------------------

So what will cause East Antarctica, to give up its ice? Hey, maybe humans won't re-green, the accelerating temperatures will reach some new high, and in a couple of hundred years, the eastern ice sheet might get damaged, but not for the time being. Never underestimate sociopathic humans. They can think of a way, to screw this up, but not until they ignore AGW some more:

A case is made for the stability of the East Antarctic Ice Sheet during Pliocene time from landscape development and surficial sediments in the Dry Valleys sector of the Transantarctic Mountains. The alternate hypothesis of Pliocene meltdown requires atmospheric temperatures 20°C above present values, late Pliocene ice-sheet overriding of the Transantarctic Mountains, and possible rapid late Pliocene mountain uplift of 1000-3000 m. The geomorphological results suggest that these conditions were not met in the Dry Valleys region. Rather, Pliocene mean annual atmospheric temperatures were at most only 3° to 8°C above present values; ice-sheet overriding occurred in Miocene time (>13.6 Ma); Pliocene glacier expansion was limited; and Pliocene surface uplift was only about 250 to 300 m. These conclusions are based on field studies in Taylor and Wright Valleys, in the western Asgard Range, and in the Quartermain Mountains. The chronology comes from numerous 40Ar/39Ar dates on in-situ volcanic ashes that occur in stratigraphic association with unconsolidated diamictons in the western Dry Valleys, basaltic lava flows interbedded with widespread tills in Taylor Valley, and reworked basaltic clasts in alpine moraines in east-central Wright Valley. The combined evidence from the Dry Valleys region indicates that slope evolution was severely restricted throughout Pliocene time, and has been so since at least the middle Miocene. The implication is that most of the Dry Valleys landscape is relict and that it reflects ancient erosion, possibly under semi-arid climate conditions, prior to middle-Miocene time.

-----------------------------

Since their theory of Pliocene meltdown requires 20 C above present values, MAYBE future humans will be safe, from meltdown, in East Antarctica. What will be determined is whether humans can limit acceleration of warming, to some level, which does not completely exceed previous warmings.

The modern acceleration of warming is likely happening, NOW, since out-gassing from all affected Arctic regions has been evident, and humans won't reduce emissions in any way, including to reduce the drug war or any other war and the related carbon footprint, which would allow widespread growing of industrial hemp, known to be a valuable biomass resource.

Whether humans can see fit to re-green deserts and polluted lands and waters remains to be seen. Humans are at war, and war enables profiteers, who have put a price on everything. The price on simple VALUE is too high, for humans to continue to multiply, indefinitely, but we are 7.017 billions.

Unless humans swing value against the carbon footprint, in favor of eco-balance, humans are still too stupid, to survive what is happening and what is coming. What is coming might be a meltdown, of East Antarctica, but this remains to be seen.

If temperatures are 8-20 C hotter, than today's global average, that ice might melt and really, REALLY screw things up, for any humans, left alive. This could take more than a couple of hundred years, but don't underestimate human sociopaths. They could multiply, like pond scum, send the temperature way up, and take out ALL the ice.

But will they do that? Humans might re-green. We'll have to wait and see.

A tuya is a volcano that erupted under a glacier. The Vatnajökull glacier in Europe is a temperate glacier covering about 8,300 square kilometers in the SE part of Iceland. Volcanic fissure systems of the Mid-Atlantic Ridge plate boundary are partly covered by the western part of the ice sheet. Two major volcanic centers lie beneath the ice, the Bardarbunga volcanic centre and the Grimsvötn volcanic centre both with large subglacial caldera depressions. [Source: Nordisk Vulkanologisk Institut (Nordic Volcanological Institute, Iceland) Website, 2001]

Glaciers and Global Warming

Worldwide glaciers are shrinking. Many blame global warming, which seems to be causing more snowfall in the winter but more melting in the summer. Many glaciers are melting rapidly with the pace having picked up in the last decade. Glaciers have almost vanished from Africa and Papua New Guinea.

In the Caucasus half of all glaciers have disappeared in the last 100 years. Mt. Kilimanjaros ice cap has shrunk by half in the last 40 years and by 80 percent in the last 100 years. By some estimates it could be ice free in as little as 15 years. Glaciers in the some parts of the Alps and the Andes are shrinking at an alarming rate and some worry they could disappear in the coming decade.

In the 1980s and 1990s glaciers in the Alps have been melting faster but ice covers in Scandinavia, Greenland, Iceland and New Zealand have been growing.

In 2008, a total of 70 Swiss glaciers were retreating and five were advancing according to the Swiss Glacier Monitoring network. The Aletsch glacier, the largest in the Alps and a major water source for the Rhine, has been retreating for about 150 years yet it still holds 27 million tons of ice, enough to fill 12 million Olympic-size swimming pools.

Run off from melting glaciers and ice caps is raising sea levels by 1.2 centimeters a year. Estimates vary but glacier and mountain caps could contribute 70 centimeters to global sea levels if they were all to melt.

The melting of glaciers isnt necessarily tied to global warming. Scientists say it can take decades for a glacier to respond to warming and that melting is occurring is still partly the warming after the Little Age from 1450 to 1890.

-----------------------

So what will cause East Antarctica, to give up its ice? Hey, maybe humans won't re-green, the accelerating temperatures will reach some new high, and in a couple of hundred years, the eastern ice sheet might get damaged, but not for the time being. Never underestimate sociopathic humans. They can think of a way, to screw this up, but not until they ignore AGW some more:

A case is made for the stability of the East Antarctic Ice Sheet during Pliocene time from landscape development and surficial sediments in the Dry Valleys sector of the Transantarctic Mountains. The alternate hypothesis of Pliocene meltdown requires atmospheric temperatures 20°C above present values, late Pliocene ice-sheet overriding of the Transantarctic Mountains, and possible rapid late Pliocene mountain uplift of 1000-3000 m. The geomorphological results suggest that these conditions were not met in the Dry Valleys region. Rather, Pliocene mean annual atmospheric temperatures were at most only 3° to 8°C above present values; ice-sheet overriding occurred in Miocene time (>13.6 Ma); Pliocene glacier expansion was limited; and Pliocene surface uplift was only about 250 to 300 m. These conclusions are based on field studies in Taylor and Wright Valleys, in the western Asgard Range, and in the Quartermain Mountains. The chronology comes from numerous 40Ar/39Ar dates on in-situ volcanic ashes that occur in stratigraphic association with unconsolidated diamictons in the western Dry Valleys, basaltic lava flows interbedded with widespread tills in Taylor Valley, and reworked basaltic clasts in alpine moraines in east-central Wright Valley. The combined evidence from the Dry Valleys region indicates that slope evolution was severely restricted throughout Pliocene time, and has been so since at least the middle Miocene. The implication is that most of the Dry Valleys landscape is relict and that it reflects ancient erosion, possibly under semi-arid climate conditions, prior to middle-Miocene time.

-----------------------------

Since their theory of Pliocene meltdown requires 20 C above present values, MAYBE future humans will be safe, from meltdown, in East Antarctica. What will be determined is whether humans can limit acceleration of warming, to some level, which does not completely exceed previous warmings.

The modern acceleration of warming is likely happening, NOW, since out-gassing from all affected Arctic regions has been evident, and humans won't reduce emissions in any way, including to reduce the drug war or any other war and the related carbon footprint, which would allow widespread growing of industrial hemp, known to be a valuable biomass resource.

Whether humans can see fit to re-green deserts and polluted lands and waters remains to be seen. Humans are at war, and war enables profiteers, who have put a price on everything. The price on simple VALUE is too high, for humans to continue to multiply, indefinitely, but we are 7.017 billions.

Unless humans swing value against the carbon footprint, in favor of eco-balance, humans are still too stupid, to survive what is happening and what is coming. What is coming might be a meltdown, of East Antarctica, but this remains to be seen.

Click to expand...

Can you show how Global Warming is causing undersea volcanoes to erupt?

Tell you what, if you're so damn sure about all this, feel free move the hell away from the water's edge and leave the rest of us alone.

Click to expand...

Hey! Enemaflowmeter!Not only am I sure about what is happening, I hang at USMB because at least two of the other posters know more about science, etc. than I know, but I go somewhere else, and I know more than anybody else.

One difference at this forum, the rules allow me to tell you retards how stupid you are, and you are really stupid. You wouldn't be able to go to somewhere I am, come up to me, in real life, and tell me to move, unless you claim gang turf, so enjoy the forum.

In America, criminal gangs are all over the place, but Enemaflowmeter, over here doesn't have the vital components, to wander up to somebody at a science thread and order him off, which are GUNS and HOMIES. You have retards, wandering out of special class, so O.R. and I might get lonesome and send PMs, otherwise.

I'll be trying to figure out how stupid efm is, since he already marked himself, as a fucktard, in a pack. If efm continues to hang, hey, I get to see how stupid he is, since intelligence testing would be wasted.

Here is an interesting plot, of Arctic and Antarctic ice anomalies, which may be explainable, due to the fact that Antarctic sea ice has been gathering, possibly because winds may be favorable, to sea ice accretion. More on that, later. The water temperature is rising, overall, so this subject deserves a post.

The sea ice all melts, pretty much, so the perennial ice loss referred to in the OP or elsewhere, with any on-land melt, from Greenland or elsewhere is the critical measure. Hey! If it is on land, and it melts, it isn't already displacing sea water. So more of land melt goes into a system, with rising temperatures, which is goosing SLR, threatening our shorelines.

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