I think a horny baboon may edge you out on the aerospace engineering front, George.

The indirect effects of water vapour (contrails and contrail-cirrus) and particles from aircraft may play a major role in the climate impact of air traffic. The contrail formation is affected by the engine propulsion efficiency, which grows with decreasing exhaust gas temperature. An engine performing with a higher overall propulsion efficiency causes plume conditions which during mixing reach a higher relative humidity for the same ambient temperature, thus causing contrails also at a higher ambient temperature. This paper is aimed at finding technical solutions for the aircraft engines that temporarily decrease the propulsion efficiency, and thereby may alleviate the formation of contrails.

Now, what is the average exhaust plume temp of a high bypass turbofan versus the exhaust plume temp of a comparable thrust turbojet?

You have the answer in your hand and did all along, but you either refuse to or are incapable of putting the pieces together.

Don't know yet but I will try to find out . . .

Quoting: George B

Think logically, George.

If you surround a high temp core of gas with a very large volume of much lower temperature gas, what happens to the AVERAGE temperature of that gas.

Ho hum. Chemtrails. One of the silliest kook topics on the net. Not even fun to debunk like Zetatalk.

I know it is a drag . . . I am getting real tired of it myself. However, I promised I would do the debate tomorrow and that is what I am going to do . . . sorry you guys have had to suffer along with the process.

It would not be such a drag if you had the slightest idea what you were talking about, or if you did not hallucinate replies that only you can see or read....

I am not a chemical engineer, aeronautical engineer, or even a private pilot . . . most people who believe in Chemtrails aren't either . . . that is the point.

That is the point. Chemical engineers, aeronautical engineers, and private pilots laugh at this shit. How is it that people that can't even fly a plane on a video game know more than the people that fly for a living? As I said, one of the silliest kook topics around.

I think a horny baboon may edge you out on the aerospace engineering front, George.

The indirect effects of water vapour (contrails and contrail-cirrus) and particles from aircraft may play a major role in the climate impact of air traffic. The contrail formation is affected by the engine propulsion efficiency, which grows with decreasing exhaust gas temperature. An engine performing with a higher overall propulsion efficiency causes plume conditions which during mixing reach a higher relative humidity for the same ambient temperature, thus causing contrails also at a higher ambient temperature. This paper is aimed at finding technical solutions for the aircraft engines that temporarily decrease the propulsion efficiency, and thereby may alleviate the formation of contrails.

Now, what is the average exhaust plume temp of a high bypass turbofan versus the exhaust plume temp of a comparable thrust turbojet?

You have the answer in your hand and did all along, but you either refuse to or are incapable of putting the pieces together.

Don't know yet but I will try to find out . . .

Think logically, George.

If you surround a high temp core of gas with a very large volume of much lower temperature gas, what happens to the AVERAGE temperature of that gas.

Simple logic and everyday experience will tell you the answer.

Quoting: The Commentator

Thanks for the info . . . makes sense.

Martin Luther King . . . Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter!

All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them.Galileo Galilei, Italian astronomer & physicist (1564 - 1642)

The only thing guaranteed in life is deception. . . everything else is optional, except for death and taxes . . . George B

I think a horny baboon may edge you out on the aerospace engineering front, George.

The indirect effects of water vapour (contrails and contrail-cirrus) and particles from aircraft may play a major role in the climate impact of air traffic. The contrail formation is affected by the engine propulsion efficiency, which grows with decreasing exhaust gas temperature. An engine performing with a higher overall propulsion efficiency causes plume conditions which during mixing reach a higher relative humidity for the same ambient temperature, thus causing contrails also at a higher ambient temperature. This paper is aimed at finding technical solutions for the aircraft engines that temporarily decrease the propulsion efficiency, and thereby may alleviate the formation of contrails.

Now, what is the average exhaust plume temp of a high bypass turbofan versus the exhaust plume temp of a comparable thrust turbojet?

You have the answer in your hand and did all along, but you either refuse to or are incapable of putting the pieces together.

Don't know yet but I will try to find out . . .

Think logically, George.

If you surround a high temp core of gas with a very large volume of much lower temperature gas, what happens to the AVERAGE temperature of that gas.

Ho hum. Chemtrails. One of the silliest kook topics on the net. Not even fun to debunk like Zetatalk.

Quoting: KeepingItReal

It's certainly going to be something that neither side can fully prove one way or the other. Sure, it's possible there are planes spraying chemicals into the atmosphere. But I don't think so and my belief of that will not change until someone can present some solid evidence on that.

A few years ago, someone on this forum claimed to have collected samples of a "chemtrail" and had it analyzed. However, the story became unbelievable when I started asking questions the poster refused to answer such as:

What altitude the sample was collected at?What kind of aircraft was used to collect the sample?What method was used to collect the sample and ensure that it didn't become contaminated?What lab analyzed the sample?What is their contact information?Where can a copy of analysis be found?

The poster used the usual story claiming that the lab didn't want to give out their information because they feared the big, bad, evil government would come after them or worse. Where the story started to fall apart was when the poster claimed the samples were collected at an altitude of 15,000 ft and the aircraft used was a Cessna 172. Yeah, not likely in a Cessna 172. Maybe in a Cessna Citation or LearJet with a pressurized cabin.

Ho hum. Chemtrails. One of the silliest kook topics on the net. Not even fun to debunk like Zetatalk.

I know it is a drag . . . I am getting real tired of it myself. However, I promised I would do the debate tomorrow and that is what I am going to do . . . sorry you guys have had to suffer along with the process.

It would not be such a drag if you had the slightest idea what you were talking about, or if you did not hallucinate replies that only you can see or read....

I am not a chemical engineer, aeronautical engineer, or even a private pilot . . . most people who believe in Chemtrails aren't either . . . that is the point.

That is the point. Chemical engineers, aeronautical engineers, and private pilots laugh at this shit. How is it that people that can't even fly a plane on a video game know more than the people that fly for a living? As I said, one of the silliest kook topics around.

Indeed. Well said!

Quoting: The Commentator

All the crap aside people are correct in feeling the amount of ambient contrails and cirrus clouds are increased within their lifetime. They see contrails in climatic conditions and in areas of the country where they were rare in years past. The rate of cloud seeding is on a dramatic increase and climatic research is on the increase. Military and the Forest Service use of Chaff has made news services when they were ignored before. People are spooked . . . they don't understand and the simply don't trust the government.

Martin Luther King . . . Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter!

All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them.Galileo Galilei, Italian astronomer & physicist (1564 - 1642)

The only thing guaranteed in life is deception. . . everything else is optional, except for death and taxes . . . George B

I think a horny baboon may edge you out on the aerospace engineering front, George.

The indirect effects of water vapour (contrails and contrail-cirrus) and particles from aircraft may play a major role in the climate impact of air traffic. The contrail formation is affected by the engine propulsion efficiency, which grows with decreasing exhaust gas temperature. An engine performing with a higher overall propulsion efficiency causes plume conditions which during mixing reach a higher relative humidity for the same ambient temperature, thus causing contrails also at a higher ambient temperature. This paper is aimed at finding technical solutions for the aircraft engines that temporarily decrease the propulsion efficiency, and thereby may alleviate the formation of contrails.

Now, what is the average exhaust plume temp of a high bypass turbofan versus the exhaust plume temp of a comparable thrust turbojet?

You have the answer in your hand and did all along, but you either refuse to or are incapable of putting the pieces together.

Don't know yet but I will try to find out . . .

Think logically, George.

If you surround a high temp core of gas with a very large volume of much lower temperature gas, what happens to the AVERAGE temperature of that gas.

Simple logic and everyday experience will tell you the answer.

Thanks for the info . . . makes sense.

That doesn't answer the question, George.

What makes sense? Explain so we know you have absorbed the lesson.

Quoting: The Commentator

The lower temperature of the large volume of air would naturally lower the temperature of the smaller volume of air . . as long as they are in contact with each other (mixed). I would suspect the new temperature would be a rough average of the two volumes of air.

Martin Luther King . . . Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter!

All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them.Galileo Galilei, Italian astronomer & physicist (1564 - 1642)

The only thing guaranteed in life is deception. . . everything else is optional, except for death and taxes . . . George B

First Warning!!!This Chat is for Legitimate Debunking or Trolling or Spamming or Insults, not Your Question Campaigns Continue and you’ll be Banned

Quoting: Skinny Puppy 1027466

If you look back I simply made an announcement . . all the rest was almost entirely my answers to questions directed at me and nothing else. If you want to ban me . . . have at it . . . it won't change a thing in my life.

Martin Luther King . . . Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter!

All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them.Galileo Galilei, Italian astronomer & physicist (1564 - 1642)

The only thing guaranteed in life is deception. . . everything else is optional, except for death and taxes . . . George B

I think a horny baboon may edge you out on the aerospace engineering front, George.

The indirect effects of water vapour (contrails and contrail-cirrus) and particles from aircraft may play a major role in the climate impact of air traffic. The contrail formation is affected by the engine propulsion efficiency, which grows with decreasing exhaust gas temperature. An engine performing with a higher overall propulsion efficiency causes plume conditions which during mixing reach a higher relative humidity for the same ambient temperature, thus causing contrails also at a higher ambient temperature. This paper is aimed at finding technical solutions for the aircraft engines that temporarily decrease the propulsion efficiency, and thereby may alleviate the formation of contrails.

Now, what is the average exhaust plume temp of a high bypass turbofan versus the exhaust plume temp of a comparable thrust turbojet?

You have the answer in your hand and did all along, but you either refuse to or are incapable of putting the pieces together.

Don't know yet but I will try to find out . . .

Think logically, George.

If you surround a high temp core of gas with a very large volume of much lower temperature gas, what happens to the AVERAGE temperature of that gas.

Simple logic and everyday experience will tell you the answer.

Thanks for the info . . . makes sense.

That doesn't answer the question, George.

What makes sense? Explain so we know you have absorbed the lesson.

The lower temperature of the large volume of air would naturally lower the temperature of the smaller volume of air . . as long as they are in contact with each other (mixed). I would suspect the new temperature would be a rough average of the two volumes of air.

All the crap aside people are correct in feeling the amount of ambient contrails and cirrus clouds are increased within their lifetime. They see contrails in climatic conditions and in areas of the country where they were rare in years past. The rate of cloud seeding is on a dramatic increase and climatic research is on the increase. Military and the Forest Service use of Chaff has made news services when they were ignored before. People are spooked . . . they don't understand and the simply don't trust the government.

Quoting: George B

There are a lot more planes in the air and flight paths than when I was a kid. That's because there are a lot more people. More planes means more contrails. But I guess that's just too simple and logical to be considered.

Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

I think a horny baboon may edge you out on the aerospace engineering front, George.

The indirect effects of water vapour (contrails and contrail-cirrus) and particles from aircraft may play a major role in the climate impact of air traffic. The contrail formation is affected by the engine propulsion efficiency, which grows with decreasing exhaust gas temperature. An engine performing with a higher overall propulsion efficiency causes plume conditions which during mixing reach a higher relative humidity for the same ambient temperature, thus causing contrails also at a higher ambient temperature. This paper is aimed at finding technical solutions for the aircraft engines that temporarily decrease the propulsion efficiency, and thereby may alleviate the formation of contrails.

Now, what is the average exhaust plume temp of a high bypass turbofan versus the exhaust plume temp of a comparable thrust turbojet?

You have the answer in your hand and did all along, but you either refuse to or are incapable of putting the pieces together.

Don't know yet but I will try to find out . . .

Think logically, George.

If you surround a high temp core of gas with a very large volume of much lower temperature gas, what happens to the AVERAGE temperature of that gas.

Simple logic and everyday experience will tell you the answer.

Thanks for the info . . . makes sense.

That doesn't answer the question, George.

What makes sense? Explain so we know you have absorbed the lesson.

The lower temperature of the large volume of air would naturally lower the temperature of the smaller volume of air . . as long as they are in contact with each other (mixed). I would suspect the new temperature would be a rough average of the two volumes of air.

And the exhaust stream temp has what effect on contrail formation?

Quoting: The Commentator

The lower the stream temp the quicker the vapor probably forms nuclei and or ice crystals which result in more persistent trails and eventually cirrus clouds in the right conditions. Research suggests the smaller the nuclei the greater the albedo effect of the cloud formed by them . . . thus higher rates of climate cooling.

Martin Luther King . . . Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter!

All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them.Galileo Galilei, Italian astronomer & physicist (1564 - 1642)

The only thing guaranteed in life is deception. . . everything else is optional, except for death and taxes . . . George B

All the crap aside people are correct in feeling the amount of ambient contrails and cirrus clouds are increased within their lifetime. They see contrails in climatic conditions and in areas of the country where they were rare in years past. The rate of cloud seeding is on a dramatic increase and climatic research is on the increase. Military and the Forest Service use of Chaff has made news services when they were ignored before. People are spooked . . . they don't understand and the simply don't trust the government.

There are a lot more planes in the air and flight paths than when I was a kid. That's because there are a lot more people. More planes means more contrails. But I guess that's just too simple and logical to be considered.

Quoting: KeepingItReal

That is a big part of it. However, the long haul flights are the ones at high enough altitude and the newer higher efficiency engines combined with the extreme in temperature and minimal relative humidity allow persistent contrails and cirrus formation. NASA has researched this for years and even they admit the rates are increasing andd have most likely resulted in overall net cooling of the planet.

I think a horny baboon may edge you out on the aerospace engineering front, George.

The indirect effects of water vapour (contrails and contrail-cirrus) and particles from aircraft may play a major role in the climate impact of air traffic. The contrail formation is affected by the engine propulsion efficiency, which grows with decreasing exhaust gas temperature. An engine performing with a higher overall propulsion efficiency causes plume conditions which during mixing reach a higher relative humidity for the same ambient temperature, thus causing contrails also at a higher ambient temperature. This paper is aimed at finding technical solutions for the aircraft engines that temporarily decrease the propulsion efficiency, and thereby may alleviate the formation of contrails.

Now, what is the average exhaust plume temp of a high bypass turbofan versus the exhaust plume temp of a comparable thrust turbojet?

You have the answer in your hand and did all along, but you either refuse to or are incapable of putting the pieces together.

Don't know yet but I will try to find out . . .

Think logically, George.

If you surround a high temp core of gas with a very large volume of much lower temperature gas, what happens to the AVERAGE temperature of that gas.

Simple logic and everyday experience will tell you the answer.

Thanks for the info . . . makes sense.

That doesn't answer the question, George.

What makes sense? Explain so we know you have absorbed the lesson.

The lower temperature of the large volume of air would naturally lower the temperature of the smaller volume of air . . as long as they are in contact with each other (mixed). I would suspect the new temperature would be a rough average of the two volumes of air.

And the exhaust stream temp has what effect on contrail formation?

The lower the stream temp the quicker the vapor probably forms nuclei and or ice crystals which result in more persistent trails and eventually cirrus clouds in the right conditions. Research suggests the smaller the nuclei the greater the albedo effect of the cloud formed by them . . . thus higher rates of climate cooling.

I remember when all this chemtrail stuff started on theinternet. It was back in the mid 90s and all the crap they claimed conflicted with what I learned growing up next to an airport and flying in my dad's aircraft. Iwatch world war 2 movies and wonder how the chemtrail folks can ignore those and not try to claim that we werespraying the hell out of Japan or Germany back then!

What's funny is way back then people where claiming thatthe spraying was directed a them, when there would be noway that anything they saw in the sky would have come downat their location.

Quoting: DrPostman

People's emotions are a big part of the story. The release of particulate or aerosols within the air by anyone is not well regulated by any umbrella authority in the US or the World for that matter. The ASCE (American Society of Civil Engineers) is as good as it gets except for an occasional environmental impact statement. Ask BP about that one. When aircraft are overhead and they are spraying or contrail-ing most people have no idea what is going on. They will latch on to almost anything someone suggests. This is a problem and should be addressed better than it has by the authorities. Bad on them.

The lower the stream temp the quicker the vapor probably forms nuclei and or ice crystals which result in more persistent trails and eventually cirrus clouds in the right conditions. Research suggests the smaller the nuclei the greater the albedo effect of the cloud formed by them . . . thus higher rates of climate cooling.

You were fine right up to the last sentence.

Quoting: The Commentator

O.K. what is your take on the albedo effects of the persistent cirrus, nuclei, etc.?

Martin Luther King . . . Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter!

All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them.Galileo Galilei, Italian astronomer & physicist (1564 - 1642)

The only thing guaranteed in life is deception. . . everything else is optional, except for death and taxes . . . George B

The lower the stream temp the quicker the vapor probably forms nuclei and or ice crystals which result in more persistent trails and eventually cirrus clouds in the right conditions. Research suggests the smaller the nuclei the greater the albedo effect of the cloud formed by them . . . thus higher rates of climate cooling.

You were fine right up to the last sentence.

O.K. what is your take on the albedo effects of the persistent cirrus, nuclei, etc.?

Quoting: George B

On a global scale? I have no idea. I could see a number of possible scenarios, but I do not know which of them, if any, reflect reality. The atmosphere is really rather poorly modeled because there are so many interactions on so many scales that could have an impact.

Anyone who tells you otherwise is either a fool or is trying to sell you something.

I remember when all this chemtrail stuff started on theinternet. It was back in the mid 90s and all the crap they claimed conflicted with what I learned growing up next to an airport and flying in my dad's aircraft. Iwatch world war 2 movies and wonder how the chemtrail folks can ignore those and not try to claim that we werespraying the hell out of Japan or Germany back then!

What's funny is way back then people where claiming thatthe spraying was directed a them, when there would be noway that anything they saw in the sky would have come downat their location.

People's emotions are a big part of the story. The release of particulate or aerosols within the air by anyone is not well regulated by any umbrella authority in the US or the World for that matter. The ASCE (American Society of Engineers) is as good as it gets except for an occasional environmental impact statement. Ask BP about that one. When aircraft are overhead and they are spraying or contrail-ing most people have no idea what is going on. They will latch on to almost anything someone suggests. This is a problem and should be addressed better than it has by the authorities. Bad on them.

Quoting: George B

You know what George, I just don't see why whoever you claim is responsible would go to so much trouble. If one can accept that the powers that be are trying to poison us (playing the devils advocate here for arguments sake), it would be much easier and controlled to target people through food or water. If they are spraying over populated areas on purpose, they are also contaminating resources that would be left for them after the die off. Why would they shit in their own water supply, why would they poison the soil and why would they risk contaminating people of their own in the process. It just doesn't make sense because it is impossible to target anyone with accuracy.

Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

You know what George, I just don't see why whoever you claim is responsible would go to so much trouble. If one can accept that the powers that be are trying to poison us (playing the devils advocate here for arguments sake), it would be much easier and controlled to target people through food or water. If they are spraying over populated areas on purpose, they are also contaminating resources that would be left for them after the die off. Why would they shit in their own water supply, why would they poison the soil and why would they risk contaminating people of their own in the process. It just doesn't make sense because it is impossible to target anyone with accuracy.

Quoting: KeepingItReal

Very good thoughts . . . I don't think there is an easy answer for that position; however, I do have several suggestions to your hypothetical.

1. TPTB are immune to the aerosols or particulate.2. TPTB are not concerned about the aerosols because they are not intended to poison people or plant life . . . there may be an effect but it is long term3. The goal of aerosol release is global in nature and not targeting any particular location specifically4. Climate control or EMP protection may be the goal not population control

Martin Luther King . . . Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter!

All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them.Galileo Galilei, Italian astronomer & physicist (1564 - 1642)

The only thing guaranteed in life is deception. . . everything else is optional, except for death and taxes . . . George B

O.K. what is your take on the albedo effects of the persistent cirrus, nuclei, etc.?

On a global scale? I have no idea. I could see a number of possible scenarios, but I do not know which of them, if any, reflect reality. The atmosphere is really rather poorly modeled because there are so many interactions on so many scales that could have an impact.

Anyone who tells you otherwise is either a fool or is trying to sell you something.

Quoting: The Commentator

I have obviously read a lot of research and comments regarding this whole mess over the last several days and there seems to be a group of scientists making assumptions regarding albedo and contrail induced cirrus clouds . . . let me see if I can find you some sources . . .

Greenhouse gases and cirrus clouds regulate outgoing longwave radiation (OLR) and cirrus cloud coverage is predicted to be sensitive to the ice fall speed which depends on ice crystal size. The higher the cirrus, the greater their impact is on OLR. Thus by changing ice crystal size in the coldest cirrus, OLR and climate might be modified. Fortunately the coldest cirrus have the highest ice supersaturation due to the dominance of homogeneous freezing nucleation. Seeding such cirrus with very efficient heterogeneous ice nuclei should produce larger ice crystals due to vapor competition effects, thus increasing OLR and surface cooling. Preliminary estimates of this global net cloud forcing are more negative than &#8722;2.8 W m&#8722;2 and could neutralize the radiative forcing due to a CO2 doubling (3.7 W m&#8722;2). A potential delivery mechanism for the seeding material is already in place: the airline industry. Since seeding aerosol residence times in the troposphere are relatively short, the climate might return to its normal state within months after stopping the geoengineering experiment. The main known drawback to this approach is that it would not stop ocean acidification. It does not have many of the drawbacks that stratospheric injection of sulfur species has. [link to iopscience.iop.org] /

Martin Luther King . . . Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter!

All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them.Galileo Galilei, Italian astronomer & physicist (1564 - 1642)

The only thing guaranteed in life is deception. . . everything else is optional, except for death and taxes . . . George B

O.K. what is your take on the albedo effects of the persistent cirrus, nuclei, etc.?

On a global scale? I have no idea. I could see a number of possible scenarios, but I do not know which of them, if any, reflect reality. The atmosphere is really rather poorly modeled because there are so many interactions on so many scales that could have an impact.

Anyone who tells you otherwise is either a fool or is trying to sell you something.

I have obviously read a lot of research and comments regarding this whole mess over the last several days and there seems to be a group of scientists making assumptions regarding albedo and contrail induced cirrus clouds . . . let me see if I can find you some sources . . .

Greenhouse gases and cirrus clouds regulate outgoing longwave radiation (OLR) and cirrus cloud coverage is predicted to be sensitive to the ice fall speed which depends on ice crystal size. The higher the cirrus, the greater their impact is on OLR. Thus by changing ice crystal size in the coldest cirrus, OLR and climate might be modified. Fortunately the coldest cirrus have the highest ice supersaturation due to the dominance of homogeneous freezing nucleation. Seeding such cirrus with very efficient heterogeneous ice nuclei should produce larger ice crystals due to vapor competition effects, thus increasing OLR and surface cooling. Preliminary estimates of this global net cloud forcing are more negative than &#8722;2.8 W m&#8722;2 and could neutralize the radiative forcing due to a CO2 doubling (3.7 W m&#8722;2). A potential delivery mechanism for the seeding material is already in place: the airline industry. Since seeding aerosol residence times in the troposphere are relatively short, the climate might return to its normal state within months after stopping the geoengineering experiment. The main known drawback to this approach is that it would not stop ocean acidification. It does not have many of the drawbacks that stratospheric injection of sulfur species has. [link to iopscience.iop.org] /

Quoting: George B

There are a lot of assumptions made by a lot of people. And they are just that: assumptions.

Very good thoughts . . . I don't think there is an easy answer for that position; however, I do have several suggestions to your hypothetical.

1. TPTB are immune to the aerosols or particulate.2. TPTB are not concerned about the aerosols because they are not intended to poison people or plant life . . . there may be an effect but it is long term3. The goal of aerosol release is global in nature and not targeting any particular location specifically4. Climate control or EMP protection may be the goal not population control

But you left out 5. Chemtrail advocates are wrong.

Quoting: DrPostman

That is always possible . . . hypothetically.

Martin Luther King . . . Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter!

All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them.Galileo Galilei, Italian astronomer & physicist (1564 - 1642)

The only thing guaranteed in life is deception. . . everything else is optional, except for death and taxes . . . George B

O.K. what is your take on the albedo effects of the persistent cirrus, nuclei, etc.?

On a global scale? I have no idea. I could see a number of possible scenarios, but I do not know which of them, if any, reflect reality. The atmosphere is really rather poorly modeled because there are so many interactions on so many scales that could have an impact.

Anyone who tells you otherwise is either a fool or is trying to sell you something.

I have obviously read a lot of research and comments regarding this whole mess over the last several days and there seems to be a group of scientists making assumptions regarding albedo and contrail induced cirrus clouds . . . let me see if I can find you some sources . . .

Greenhouse gases and cirrus clouds regulate outgoing longwave radiation (OLR) and cirrus cloud coverage is predicted to be sensitive to the ice fall speed which depends on ice crystal size. The higher the cirrus, the greater their impact is on OLR. Thus by changing ice crystal size in the coldest cirrus, OLR and climate might be modified. Fortunately the coldest cirrus have the highest ice supersaturation due to the dominance of homogeneous freezing nucleation. Seeding such cirrus with very efficient heterogeneous ice nuclei should produce larger ice crystals due to vapor competition effects, thus increasing OLR and surface cooling. Preliminary estimates of this global net cloud forcing are more negative than &#8722;2.8 W m&#8722;2 and could neutralize the radiative forcing due to a CO2 doubling (3.7 W m&#8722;2). A potential delivery mechanism for the seeding material is already in place: the airline industry. Since seeding aerosol residence times in the troposphere are relatively short, the climate might return to its normal state within months after stopping the geoengineering experiment. The main known drawback to this approach is that it would not stop ocean acidification. It does not have many of the drawbacks that stratospheric injection of sulfur species has. [link to iopscience.iop.org] /

There are a lot of assumptions made by a lot of people. And they are just that: assumptions.

Quoting: The Commentator

One needs to start at the beginning . . . one needs to walk before he can run.

Martin Luther King . . . Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter!

All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them.Galileo Galilei, Italian astronomer & physicist (1564 - 1642)

The only thing guaranteed in life is deception. . . everything else is optional, except for death and taxes . . . George B

I haven't dove into the chemtrail thing, it just sounds too ridiculous, there are other more pressing problems that I know much more about. But I still don't get how knowing about chemtrails is going to solve anything. If TPTB are responsible, then it's a lost cause. If there's no solution, why waste time on it? Is someone trying to prove that TPTB (US gov't or whatever) are really the bad guys? Well, we already know that.

Just to get some PX in here, did anyone notice how Nancy was able to weasel out of the thread she did on here announcing Venus being out of place because she didn't understand the placement of stereo ahead? Did she ever admit that was Venus or did she just let the thread die?

I'd also like an explanation as to why there aren't heavy amounts of xxxtrails in the sky every day of the week 24/7 with the heavy airtraffic in any major city yet some days the sky is clear?

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1030629

Answer to the second question . . . temperature and relative humidity change daily, hourly, etc. Air mixes constantly. Thus the micro-environments for Trail formation and persistence changes dramatically from day to day even hour to hour at different altitudes. Usually contrails are visible only at higher altitudes where temperature are more extreme. . . which means only long haul commercial aviation will result in contrails. High performance Military aircraft engines are not designed to conserve fuel as much as to provide thrust and their vapor trails are released at higher temperature . . . resulting in different trail dynamics than commercial aircraft. Answer . . . it is complex and you need to know the temperature, altitude, relative humidity, and even the engine type before one can truly predict with confidence the likelihood of contrail persistence. In general long haul aviation is on the increase, high efficiency commercial engines are on the increase, and thus the number and frequency of persistent contrails and cirrus clouds resulting from the new activity have increased. So research into the climatic effects of cirrus cloud reflectivity (albedo effects) are on the increase.