He doesn't realize anything other than he will be making an absurd amount of money, won't have to be "The Man" each night, and that everyone in America may not like him outside of the Miami city limits. No biggie.

Leaving Cleveland was not a mistake. How he did it was. I think he's going to relish being the "bad guy", really seemed to like it when he was in high school. Clearly he's now one of the members of the NWO, maybe not Hulk Hogan, but at least one of the Outsiders (sorry for pro wrestling reference, credit Bill Simmons)

"It's all about winning for me, and I think the Cavs are committed to doing that," he said. "But at the same time I've given myself options to this point, and like I said before, me and my team, we have a game plan that we're going to execute, and we'll see what we get."

If Bosh wasn't such a lock for being "Big Sexy", I would have pegged LeBron's psuedo-charisma for Kevin Nash. Scott Hall was just too fun of a guy to be any of this "Big Three".

On the topic of LeBron all of the sudden getting it. I think it would be pretty naive to give the guy an ability to understand what he has done. I think he is at the stage where he rationalizes any hate as ridiculously irrational. Just more stupidity from those rubes in Cleveland. I'd be ready for a Charles Barkely "not a role model", quote anytime now. Cleveland fans just needs to let it go, he spoiled us for 7 years with that talent.

I think the guy only "gets it" years and years after his playing days are over, very least at the tail end of his career. Unless he goes out like Jim Brown, under that circumstance he may be forever narcissistic.

"When a man with money meets a man with experience, the man with experience leaves with money and the man with money leaves with experience."

Respectfully disagree OJ. If you don't get it when you're young you ain't getting it as more and more people suck you off and do your bidding.

If this ain't a broken home and parenting lesson I don't know what it is. He's got nothing to fall back to. He ain't the good, solid guy who truly knows right, wrong, decency and common courtesy who fell into the lottery, spent cash on whores and blow and then came back to his senses and his wife and kids.

People said he lost his moral compass. I'm saying he never had one. He had people in his life who at least kept him out of trouble when they saw he could score and pass them to glory. Then he went back to Mav and the boys.

He doesn't realize shit other than he's taking a beating and he wishes it would stop. He's fucking broken and has been since we heard of him.

Peek I understand the take, I was coming from the point of view that it would only happen under the limited circumstance outlined. Pretty much assumes that at that point in career or life he doesn't have as many people "blowing him".

Course your point is he has always been this guy. Being that I had no idea who the fuck he was until about his Junior season, I can't really debate that...

Something just tells me late in life he will come correct. I don't buy the broken home bullshit. I've just seen too many rise beyond that, but this part of the debate is even more subjective then the above... So, YMMV.

"When a man with money meets a man with experience, the man with experience leaves with money and the man with money leaves with experience."

I absolutely loved seeing Jordan's comments on Sportscenter last night. I have spent a lifetime despising that man, and finally, last night, he did something that made me smile.

LeBron is so ego'd out that he rarely will mention it anymore, but the man has spent his life idolizing Jordan. When watching Jordan's comments last night, it made me so happy to know how bad it had to eat at LeFuckface when Jordan said "I spent my career trying to figure out how to beat Larry and Michael, not how to join them". Then you add in Barkley's comments (word I always heard is that Bron took what the Round Mound of Rebound said as gospel) where he said "If you're the MVP, you make them come to you ... you don't go to them", and at least to me, there is some satisfaction in seeing a couple of his idols join the rest of the world in absolutely just destroying him.

"It's like dating a woman who hates you so much she will never break up with you, even if you burn down the house every single autumn." ~ Chuck Klosterman on Browns fans relationship with the Browns

Orenthal wrote:Peek I understand the take, I was coming from the point of view that it would only happen under the limited circumstance outlined. Pretty much assumes that at that point in career or life he doesn't have as many people "blowing him".

Course your point is he has always been this guy. Being that I had no idea who the fuck he was until about his Junior season, I can't really debate that...

Something just tells me late in life he will come correct. I don't buy the broken home bullshit. I've just seen too many rise beyond that, but this part of the debate is even more subjective then the above... So, YMMV.

The broken home ain't bullshit - it's the reason it is. Period.

For every one you've seen rise above it there's a hundred dead in the streets. The ones that can bounce that fucking ball get an additional chance, but they gain no moral compass.

The fucked up way he went about this is a product, AGAIN, of having nobody that could talk some sense into him when needed.

No Dad, a worthless drug addicted mother - people clawing at a once in a generations sports talent.....looking forward to seeing who "rises above" this.

He was destined to be an enabled prick, as much as he was destined to be a basketball star. If everyone reading this had no rules, nor ruler in life, we'd turn out a whole lot different, and many more of us would be assholes that others couldn't stand.

The way he carried himslef, early in his career, it was almost amazing that he seemed to come out of that o.k., and as peek said, we were (and the Cavs were) willing to ignore any signs.

The argument here is that he currently is not living in this world. And, if you believe that, then it is reasonable to think he may come correct. However, this is a guy who NEVER lived in this world, therefore, it is very reasonable to believe he'll come to his senses - because, what's he going to come to his senses to?

At the end of the day, I still think, aside from Cleveland, he comes out of this fine. People have ignored worse, including from the above mentioned MJ, who is a prime example that, in this great country, you can indeed be a humongous piece of shit, and people will still love you - provided you can do something fantastic with some sort of ball.

When your legal guardian, with a drug history, is in the stands at high school games yelling "we gonna get paid!!" I mean Christ, what could we expect.

Moral compass??This is a kid from a poor, single-parent (well, no parent, actually) home.But he could somehow afford a pricey private high school.And he could somehow drive a Hummer... and then taunt the OHSAA in the meantime.He hasn't followed rules for quite some time.

"The nose of the bulldog has been slanted backwards so that he can breathe without letting go." -- Winston Churchill

You are all overthinking it... James just realized that the same sell job he took from Riley in joining Miami bit him in the ass when Riley convinced him that the real estate market hadn't tanked and that $49.5 million was a steal of a deal!

Seriously, Riley has to have had the best summer in the history of sports as far as team presidents goes.

The most arrogant out there become what they are because of a sense of entitlement, regardless of what financial and/or parenting background they have. The chemistry fertilizes the egg and shit.

True much of the time, but this isn't the usual case. A sense of entitlement starting at 12 has less of a chance of spiralling out of control with a solid figure in the house.

Don't get me wrong, they ALL have a sense of entitlement which makes them very self unaware, but good parents will do wonders, and it ain't to hard to pick out the ones that come from a solid family - sense of entitlement recognized.

Look, all I'm sayin' is his arrogance, much like many other variables in his life, has a much better chance of going south in a broken home. Especially with people clawing at you from elementary school on.

leadpipe wrote:For every one you've seen rise above it there's a hundred dead in the streets. The ones that can bounce that fucking ball get an additional chance, but they gain no moral compass.

Those statistics I won't debate. That is true. My debate is the "Period" part when it comes to social or envrionmental factors being 100%. As you state 1 in 100 get out of that life, 1 in 1,000,000,000,000 become LeBron James/the best at what they do.

The fucked up way he went about this is a product, AGAIN, of having nobody that could talk some sense into him when needed.

No Dad, a worthless drug addicted mother - people clawing at a once in a generations sports talent.....looking forward to seeing who "rises above" this.

He was destined to be an enabled prick, as much as he was destined to be a basketball star. If everyone reading this had no rules, nor ruler in life, we'd turn out a whole lot different, and many more of us would be assholes that others couldn't stand.

I don't see the obvious connection. LeBron was left with a seemingly normal family (Walker's) starting in the 4th grade when Gloria just could not provide structure. There are many other details here, but as this has become a full on tangent I will cut the bio short.

Attributing "The Decision" to him not knowing/ignorance gives the guy such a pass. It is much more simple, he is an immature 25 year old who wanted to take the easy way out. He wants to hang with his friends and have fun at his job. Hanging in South Beach is just a plus.

He did what he wanted to do, and could give two shits about Cleveland and its fans. Many 25 year olds behave in such a manner. Most don't have Primetime TV to display that behavior, but on some scale they usually make an ass of themselves. Only later in life, if ever, do they realize as much.

"When a man with money meets a man with experience, the man with experience leaves with money and the man with money leaves with experience."

e0y2e3 wrote:I don't think you have ever seen the NE lax player, that is what I am saying.

Nor the kid that interned w/ Golman on his dad's name.

Not the kid that got a great job because his mom blew that CEO.

Understood. But that's to my point. The ones you mention, their sense of entitlement is grown from their family. Lebron's is grown from having none - along with circumstance. So, if Lebron's Dad was Donald Trump his arrogance would still be at an annoying level.

Look, I've run into all levels of these guys in conjunction with the Sports Park. From ex-NBA'ers playing in the basketball leagues, to guys that carry themselves like they are God because they were high school stars. It has been my experience there is a correlation with the level of discord in reality they have based on their family background.

Lebron was basically raised by enablers and ass kissers, with nobody to keep he, them..or anything in check. This absolutely has to greaten the chance for arrogance (among other things)....am I delusional in thinking this?

leadpipe wrote:For every one you've seen rise above it there's a hundred dead in the streets. The ones that can bounce that fucking ball get an additional chance, but they gain no moral compass.

Those statistics I won't debate. That is true. My debate is the "Period" part when it comes to social or envrionmental factors being 100%. As you state 1 in 100 get out of that life, 1 in 1,000,000,000,000 become LeBron James/the best at what they do.

The fucked up way he went about this is a product, AGAIN, of having nobody that could talk some sense into him when needed.

No Dad, a worthless drug addicted mother - people clawing at a once in a generations sports talent.....looking forward to seeing who "rises above" this.

He was destined to be an enabled prick, as much as he was destined to be a basketball star. If everyone reading this had no rules, nor ruler in life, we'd turn out a whole lot different, and many more of us would be assholes that others couldn't stand.

I don't see the obvious connection. LeBron was left with a seemingly normal family (Walker's) starting in the 4th grade when Gloria just could not provide structure. There are many other details here, but as this has become a full on tangent I will cut the bio short.

Attributing "The Decision" to him not knowing/ignorance gives the guy such a pass. It is much more simple, he is an immature 25 year old who wanted to take the easy way out. He wants to hang with his friends and have fun at his job. Hanging in South Beach is just a plus.

He did what he wanted to do, and could give two shits about Cleveland and its fans. Many 25 year olds behave in such a manner. Most don't have Primetime TV to display that behavior, but on some scale they usually make an ass of themselves. Only later in life, if ever, do they realize as much.

I agree. And could we make it even simpler - the guy is incredibly entitled and self unaware. I don't think this is giving him a pass, it's just an explanations for the ridiculously irrational events of the past few weeks. I think his upbringing played a part, for reasons I mentioned earlier, and also lead to him hiring his "posse" to help him make some of these decisions, which ended up being disastorous.

To your point earlier - about him regretting it later. It's a possibility - but all I'm saying is it'd be a better possibilty if he was grounded at some point in his life. His life has been a wire to wire ass kissing session from hangers on - can you feel regret to a world you've never known?

ILO, his regrets will only concern Lebron James - I doubt he ever has regrets toward people in this city, because, as you accurately state, he doesn't give a shit about us. And he won't in 30 years either.

As with Peek I won't pretend to be able to tell the future. Past performance doesn't blah blah blah. Maybe a 5% chance he figures it out. That is about as far out on the ledge as I'll get, its just not the zero that Peeks and your earlier "period" seemed to imply.

My tangent point was social and environment contribute but don't fully discount the personal responsibility aspect. I just happen to believe no matter how horribly you are brought up, at 25 years old (even if it is an immature 25) you know the impact of your decisions. This whole betrayal/quitting concept isn't Louis and Clark shit. For the modern athlete this is, water is wet, type stuff.

"When a man with money meets a man with experience, the man with experience leaves with money and the man with money leaves with experience."

Orenthal wrote:As with Peek I won't pretend to be able to tell the future. Past performance doesn't blah blah blah. Maybe a 5% chance he figures it out. That is about as far out on the ledge as I'll get, its just not the zero that Peeks and your earlier "period" seemed to imply.

My tangent point was social and environment contribute but don't fully discount the personal responsibility aspect. I just happen to believe no matter how horribly you are brought up, at 25 years old (even if it is an immature 25) you know the impact of your decisions. This whole betrayal/quitting concept isn't Louis and Clark shit. For the modern athlete this is, water is wet, type stuff.

SD:

You learn right from wrong before your five years old, so the he didn't realize the impact of his decision bullshit doesn't cut mustard.

He dumped on us at the altar , doing 90 MPH south on 77 with the chick he kept on the side all along , while leading us down the primrose path that butter didn't melt in his mouth

It was a conscious purposeful Fuck "U" ....

Will he live to regret it , time will tell.

Was he really comfortable in doing the final puppeteered mechanizations as planned out by his handlers doubtful , will he find rationalization in his heinous behavior to justify the decision, of that I have no doubt.

Orenthal wrote:As with Peek I won't pretend to be able to tell the future. Past performance doesn't blah blah blah. Maybe a 5% chance he figures it out. That is about as far out on the ledge as I'll get, its just not the zero that Peeks and your earlier "period" seemed to imply.

My tangent point was social and environment contribute but don't fully discount the personal responsibility aspect. I just happen to believe no matter how horribly you are brought up, at 25 years old (even if it is an immature 25) you know the impact of your decisions. This whole betrayal/quitting concept isn't Louis and Clark shit. For the modern athlete this is, water is wet, type stuff.

SD:

You learn right from wrong before your five years old, so the he didn't realize the impact of his decision bullshit doesn't cut mustard.

He dumped on us at the altar , doing 90 MPH south on 77 with the chick he kept on the side all along , while leading us down the primrose path that butter didn't melt in his mouth

It was a conscious purposeful Fuck "U" ....

Will he live to regret it , time will tell.

Was he really comfortable in doing the final puppeteered mechanizations as planned out by his handlers doubtful , will he find rationalization in his heinous behavior to justify the decision, of that I have no doubt.

I like how you posted that twice for double emphasis. I am kind of shocked to see that you have 1557 posts. I am confused how you could ever end on a odd number. Maybe you had a triple post at some point. Don't worry old man, you'll figure this shit out eventually.

Orenthal wrote:As with Peek I won't pretend to be able to tell the future. Past performance doesn't blah blah blah. Maybe a 5% chance he figures it out. That is about as far out on the ledge as I'll get, its just not the zero that Peeks and your earlier "period" seemed to imply.

My tangent point was social and environment contribute but don't fully discount the personal responsibility aspect. I just happen to believe no matter how horribly you are brought up, at 25 years old (even if it is an immature 25) you know the impact of your decisions. This whole betrayal/quitting concept isn't Louis and Clark shit. For the modern athlete this is, water is wet, type stuff.

SD:

You learn right from wrong before your five years old, so the he didn't realize the impact of his decision bullshit doesn't cut mustard.

He dumped on us at the altar , doing 90 MPH south on 77with the chick he kept on the side all along , while leading us down the primrose path that butter didn't melt in his mouth

It was a conscious purposeful Fuck "U" ....

Will he live to regret it , time will tell.

Was he really comfortable in doing the final puppeteered mechanizations as planned out by his handlers doubtful , will he find rationalization in his heinous behavior to justify the decision, of that I have no doubt.

PDcavsinsider These days "brand management" & "doing what is best for your family" apparently means turning off as many of your fans as possible. about 1 hour ago via TweetDeck

Galley Boys are slop on top of a so-so burger and a bun you coulde get from a Covneninet food mart generic pack. They the Antoine Joubert of burgers; soft, sloppy, oozing grease and cheap sauce and extremely overrated by a biased fan base. Proof that if you throw enough cheap sauce shit on a burger you still can't overcome the lame burger. -JB

Does anyone think the Stoudemire, CP3 and Melo hookup in New York isn't going to happen? Or at least, does anyone now believe that CP3 and Melo aren't going to do everything in their power to create their own superteam in two years?

The other young stars in the league (save for KD) aren't mad at Wade and LeRobin. They're jealous. And now they want to do it themselves.

The only thing that is going to prevent star players on non-contending teams from trying to create their own Big Threes in desireable cities around the country is a hard cap. If that doesn't happen, the NBA is going to have the same problem with big-market competitive imbalance that baseball has. Except it won't be market-driven revenue that creates the imbalance, it will be players enticing big and/or warm weather market teams to clear vast amounts of cap space, then conspiring to hook up in those cities.

You're going to have teams like the Knicks and Nets continually trying to lose in the name of clearing cap space and signing marquee free agents. Teams will go long stretches of time making no effort to get better, lest they use up any cap space before they've lured multiple big-name free agent.

Obviously, this won't affect teams like the Cavs, Bucks, Pacers, Grizzlies, etc., because no modern superstar wants to go to any of those cities. But big-market teams that know they have a chance at forming their own Big Three will play along. It will mess with the competitive integrity of the league.

If the grand experiment in Miami works and the Heat start winning titles, every non-contending big market team is going to be trying this. And every star is going to be wanting it. It's a dangerous fad.

papacass wrote:Does anyone think the Stoudemire, CP3 and Melo hookup in New York isn't going to happen? Or at least, does anyone now believe that CP3 and Melo aren't going to do everything in their power to create their own superteam in two years?

I was thinking about this last night. The Knicks just need Amare to not go blind or have his leg fall off in the next 11 months.

Also, one of the ramifications of this is LeBron eventually gets a pass (other than the whole show debacle). He was the first but once everyone is doing it, who will really care about Bron leaving outside NE Ohio?

scott wrote: Also, one of the ramifications of this is LeBron eventually gets a pass (other than the whole show debacle). He was the first but once everyone is doing it, who will really care about Bron leaving outside NE Ohio?

It's worse. The ultimate twisted irony. He'll be hailed as an innovator, a pioneer. A modern day Curt Flood.

Fuck me.

I don't need to be patient, they're going to be shit forever. - CDT, discussing my favorite NFL team

peeker643 wrote:David Stern is smarter than a room full of LBJ's and Maverick Carter's. It only goes down that road if that's what he's looking to do.

If he wants an 8-12 team league in ten years he should definitely take it down that road.

Of course you are right. When the CBA is redone for 2011-2012, there will be a hard cap. A beer says that teams over the cap at that time are granted exceptions. Wade, Bosh, James will continue to play for the Heat. Maybe that type of player "collusion" never happens again, but from where I sit, it's still a bit of horse, barn door, and all that.

I don't need to be patient, they're going to be shit forever. - CDT, discussing my favorite NFL team

mattvan1 wrote:Of course you are right. When the CBA is redone for 2011-2012, there will be a hard cap. A beer says that teams over the cap at that time are granted exceptions. Wade, Bosh, James will continue to play for the Heat. Maybe that type of player "collusion" never happens again, but from where I sit, it's still a bit of horse, barn door, and all that.

A hard cap, no guaranteed contracts, and no exceptions. Maybe even go the full NFL and go for the franchise tag too. A guy can dream, but the have-nots outnumber the haves and I don't see this ending well at all for the Knicks and Heat.

"The fucking Who...... If I want to watch old people run around ill go set fire to a nursing home." - CDT

mattvan1 wrote:Of course you are right. When the CBA is redone for 2011-2012, there will be a hard cap. A beer says that teams over the cap at that time are granted exceptions. Wade, Bosh, James will continue to play for the Heat. Maybe that type of player "collusion" never happens again, but from where I sit, it's still a bit of horse, barn door, and all that.

A hard cap, no guaranteed contracts, and no exceptions. Maybe even go the full NFL and go for the franchise tag too. A guy can dream, but the have-nots outnumber the haves and I don't see this ending well at all for the Knicks and Heat.

I hear ya, bro. But in this case I bet a room full of LBJs and Maverick Carters may not be as smart as David Stern, but they have waaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyy more leverage.

Stern spends more time worrying about the color of his socks than his does worrying about whether Cleveland has an NBA team.

Yes, I am cynical.

I don't need to be patient, they're going to be shit forever. - CDT, discussing my favorite NFL team

metalhead9x9 wrote:I've been LOVIN Windy's tweets and stories post-betrayal. He's been subtly layin down the hammer on that asshole.

Spineless...

Where were they the past 7 years?

That's a low dig. If you're going to call Windy on coddling LBJ, you better call every other member of the media. They all looked the other way because of LBJ's favored-son status. Seemed like a victimless crime up until the Boston series this year.

And besides, Windy is a news reporter. His job has been to report and analyze without personal perspective. You want to get on media members for not being hard enough on LBJ, get on the case of the opinion columnists of the area. They're the ones who are supposed to pass judgment.

Windy spent the past seven years getting nearly unparalleled access to LBJ and the Cavs' inner workings. He has relayed a great deal of insider information to his readers, and continues to do so. If you want to string up a media member for not kicking LBJ's ass enough, you're barking up the wrong tree.

metalhead9x9 wrote:I've been LOVIN Windy's tweets and stories post-betrayal. He's been subtly layin down the hammer on that asshole.

Spineless...

Where were they the past 7 years?

That's a low dig. If you're going to call Windy on coddling LBJ, you better call every other member of the media. They all looked the other way because of LBJ's favored-son status. Seemed like a victimless crime up until the Boston series this year.

And besides, Windy is a news reporter. His job has been to report and analyze without personal perspective. You want to get on media members for not being hard enough on LBJ, get on the case of the opinion columnists of the area. They're the ones who are supposed to pass judgment.

Windy spent the past seven years getting nearly unparalleled access to LBJ and the Cavs' inner workings. He has relayed a great deal of insider information to his readers, and continues to do so. If you want to string up a media member for not kicking LBJ's ass enough, you're barking up the wrong tree.

Relax Papa, I was being 90% sarcastic with the "spineless" quote...

Windy's been my fave beat since Menzer in the 80s and has done an admirable job...

I understand his position, but let's face it, he painted a honky dory picture throughout and now starts sprinkling downer-dust? Shouldn't work that way...

And yes, I agree, the opinion columnists & outlets did no favors to the fan base...Love him or hate him, at least Triv always told Cleveland that "the kid will break your hearts one day" with his inside info and no one wanted to believe him...

metalhead9x9 wrote:I've been LOVIN Windy's tweets and stories post-betrayal. He's been subtly layin down the hammer on that asshole.

Spineless...

Where were they the past 7 years?

That's a low dig. If you're going to call Windy on coddling LBJ, you better call every other member of the media. They all looked the other way because of LBJ's favored-son status. Seemed like a victimless crime up until the Boston series this year.

And besides, Windy is a news reporter. His job has been to report and analyze without personal perspective. You want to get on media members for not being hard enough on LBJ, get on the case of the opinion columnists of the area. They're the ones who are supposed to pass judgment.

Windy spent the past seven years getting nearly unparalleled access to LBJ and the Cavs' inner workings. He has relayed a great deal of insider information to his readers, and continues to do so. If you want to string up a media member for not kicking LBJ's ass enough, you're barking up the wrong tree.

Relax Papa, I was being 90% sarcastic with the "spineless" quote...

Windy's been my fave beat since Menzer in the 80s and has done an admirable job...

I understand his position, but let's face it, he painted a honky dory picture throughout and now starts sprinkling downer-dust? Shouldn't work that way...

And yes, I agree, the opinion columnists & outlets did no favors to the fan base...Love him or hate him, at least Triv always told Cleveland that "the kid will break your hearts one day" with his inside info and no one wanted to believe him...

Hell, even Jesse sounded the alarm numerously

Same thing happened with Ron Harper, that is, media coming out after he was gone. Beyond obvious Harper and his "posse" were causing headaches in the organization, but media never said a peep until he was gone. Well, that or ripping on the Cavs for dealing him even though they knew damn well there was more going on than on the court.

Nature of the gig I suppose, but the general public should learn a lesson after a while in regards to how "true" the media's disclosure is to goings on.

So, while I understand all this, I'm with Wabo here, with each salvo Windy throws....

metalhead9x9 wrote:I've been LOVIN Windy's tweets and stories post-betrayal. He's been subtly layin down the hammer on that asshole.

Spineless...

Where were they the past 7 years?

That's a low dig. If you're going to call Windy on coddling LBJ, you better call every other member of the media. They all looked the other way because of LBJ's favored-son status. Seemed like a victimless crime up until the Boston series this year.

The local media wasn't any different than the Cavs brass. The local media guys knew that LBJ on the Cavs gave their jobs more "life." Even gave them some national exposure. And also like the Cavs brass, they coddled LBJ because no one wanted to be the reason LBJ left. If Windy started ripping on LBJ while he was a Cav, LBJ's gang would have a fit and pout. Pressure would be put on Windy to back off. Windy would lose that access. Almost all of us were guilty of turning a deaf ear to his antics. We saw this kid manipulate the system since he was a high school freshman.

"The nose of the bulldog has been slanted backwards so that he can breathe without letting go." -- Winston Churchill

mattvan1 wrote:I hear ya, bro. But in this case I bet a room full of LBJs and Maverick Carters may not be as smart as David Stern, but they have waaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyy more leverage.

Not when you're outnumbered by guys on the Antoine Walker spending plan or minimum wagers wondering if there'll be jobs available for them in an 8-10 team league.

And then there's the whole thing where "The Backstab" may have made this the first lockout where public opinion will be on the side of the owners.

Bettman stuck to his guns and utterly destroyed the NHLPA. I would not be surprised to see his teacher doing the same thing to the NBAPA on behalf of the Sarvers, Heisleys, and, yes, even the Cubans and Gilberts of his association.

"The fucking Who...... If I want to watch old people run around ill go set fire to a nursing home." - CDT