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You thought Armor Lock slows down gameplay?!

Okay, it's obvious that armor abilities like armor lock are a crutch for the nooby, extending their lives by pressing a button, but I'd like to draw attention to a much more nooby feature of Reach:
[quote]CORNERS[/quote]
I would dearly like someone to explain to me what the heck Bungie was thinking when they decided to put these in the game. They have to be the biggest crutch for the cowardly that I have ever seen. I can barely count the number of times that I've been screwed over by a noob/camper that used a corner. It's like every time I'm about to kill someone, they just have to push their joystick in the general direction of a corner, and suddenly they can live. And even if I try to follow them to finish off the kill, they throw a grenade on the ground at the corner, and I either have to back off and let them get away or keep going and risk getting hit by the grenade and then subsequently headshotted. This is pure cowardice. I could out-DMR the crap out of them, get them to one shot while barely taking a hit, yet it doesn't matter, because they're at a corner. All I can really do is spam grenades at them and hope to get lucky, and even that isn't an ideal use for my grenades.
[quote]Why corners are overpowered[/quote]
Advantages of a corner include:
1. Semi-invulnerability. All you have to do is sit right by the corner, and when you're getting shot from one side, you move to the other and BAM! you're safe.
2. Escape routes. If you're fighting a losing battle, run to a corner and you'll have perfect cover to get away entirely. Throw a grenade at the corner to make sure no one can pursue you.
3. Concealment. No one can see you around a corner, so all you have to do is wait there and watch your radar, ambush whoever
4. Minimal exposure. When you're at a corner, you have far fewer directions to worry about than you would otherwise, as the number of sightlines that threaten your position are significantly reduced.
[b][i]There are no disadvantages to using a corner[/i].[/b]
Now this wouldn't be such a huge problem if any of the above advantages required skill to utilize them, but they don't require any skill whatsoever. You simply have to [b][i]be at the corner[/i][/b] to gain all the advantages.
[quote]Why corners should be removed[/quote]
Corners slow down gameplay far more than anything else ever could. Imagine how fast a team slayer game would go if there were no corners to hide behind. Armor lock doesn't even come close, and at least it has SOME disadvantages... Not to mention, as I said before, you don't need to be skilled to receive the advantages a corner offers, you simply have to push your joystick towards them and it all falls into your lap. They also encourage camping, which of course is also a huge detriment to gameplay. Seriously, what better reason could you find to sit in just one specific spot than the advantage a corner offers?
I'm sure people are thinking "If both you and your opponent can use a corner, then what's the problem?" The very fact that you HAVE to resort to using a corner in order to succeed is, in itself, a flaw, but beyond that, there is absolutely no guarantee that when you spawn, there'll be a corner available to you, and even if there is, you can either choose to be camper, or take a huge risk moving to a different corner to put yourself nearer the action. I guarantee that if corners were removed, the more skilled player would win far more often than they currently do, because no one could depend on these unbalanced abominations.
TL;DR: The bottom line is corners turn matchmaking into a crapfest, allowing anyone to survive a fight that they might lose, like true cowards and noobs. Anyone with a decent amount of skill would stay and kill or get killed.
If bungie doesn't release a title update soon that gives us slayer gametypes and maps with dmr-only, no melee damage, no armor ability, 3 shot kills in big alleyways with teams spawning at either end with nothing to hide behind and maybe some pretty decorations on the walls, I'm gonna snap my disc in half.
:P
You may notice that I posted this topic twice, and that's because, having not created many topics, I wasn't aware that the poll question would turn into the topic title...

So you're suggesting that the environment is the factor in why you die so much cause you run straight into their grenades?
You know how much WORK that would be to remake ALL the maps they have without CORNERS?! and do you realize how absolutely nonsensical it would make this whole game look?!
I know it's cliche to say but... [i]Adapt.[/i]

I understood what you meant with your poker analogy, I was just elaborating further.
I would disagree about 'skillful competition' in poker, however. That aspect takes place in the mind, an arena completely separate from the unknowns and randomness of the cards.
To put it simply, if you have two players playing Texas Hold 'Em, both who are going to play the hand to the river no matter what, who wins will be based [i]completely[/i] on the luck of the cards. This takes any skill out of the equation entirely.
To address pros and cons. It's true, that one's opinion will most likely overrule the truth of the matter. For you to say Evade is more overpowered than Armor Lock, in my eyes, is silly. You may think otherwise. I'd simply attempt to convince you by saying, yes, you are [i]very[/i] mobile with Evade, however, while using it and after using it you are still vulnerable to any and all damage and death.
That's a pretty big con.
AL on the other hand eliminates that con altogether and replaces a big con with a small one, immobility. All I'm saying is that having an ability with many more pros than cons is imbalanced (regardless of what value you give to each pro or con).
Evade is 1 to 1, greater mobility, still can take damage and die.
AL is like 6 to 1.
Anyone can see that's, at the least, [i]a little unbalanced[/i].
All I'm advocating is for one more con to be added or a pro to be removed. A simple "plasma pistol overcharge now pops the AL user out of AL" would help balance it out tremendously.
Also, I'll agree with frosting not being too difficult to deal with. A grenade or power weapon or the AL user out in the open will result in instant death after using up their AL. Can't you see though that the problem is the fact that [u]there are times when frosting saves a AL user from otherwise certain death[/u]? That being true is bad enough in and of itself, despite how many times it actually occurs in game (which for me is often).
[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Lord Bryne
Uh, the thing about the poker analogy, I really just meant I use it as an analogy about random mechanics removing skill. The idea being, there's plenty of skillful competition in poker, even though the game is based on unknowns and randomization.
Anyway, you know, by the pro's vs con's style argument, I'd say evade is much more overpowered than armor lock. It's really a meaningless argument anyway, since people will place arbitrary value on different pros and cons.
Like me, I think mobility is a huge plus, which is why I use virtually nothing but evade and sprint. And I don't think frosting is a huge advantage, I find it's easily dealt with, and rarely turns the tables. What basis do you have to convince me otherwise? And vice-versa? There's too much ambiguity.[/quote]

The most OP thing in this game imo is movement. I mean seriously WTF. Moving allows you to gain unfair advantages such as higher ground and moving out of the way of incoming projectiles. WTF bungie.
They should nerf movement and make all maps square and empty in order to make it more fair and give everyone an equal chance.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] no weakness
[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Lord Bryne
Since I'm not interested in continuing the joke, here's a serious response: isn't accounting and reacting a skill in and of itself? Lots of people like to say you can't deal with random. Well, not every time no. But a skilled/experienced player will come out on top far more often than not, right? And that's what sets them apart. I like using poker as an analogy.[/quote]I'll stick with your poker analogy and say this: Armor Lock is similar to having an Ace up your sleeve. Nobody knows you have it but you are free to use it anytime you feel you are about to be beaten. Oh and guess what, after you use it, you get to put it back up your sleeve.
Would that be good for poker?
I'll agree with you that a more experienced/skilled player will more often than not come out on top, but because of Armor Lock, just like an Ace up the sleeve, when you are beaten, it's not by pure luck or chance (let's not even get into bloom). Instead, you are being beaten by an outside source that players have no control over, besides the ability to call it into action.
Couple this with the fact that a [i]good[/i] player also has access to the ability, it becomes entirely unbalanced and ruins gameplay.
Armor Lock is not really the issue. Coupled with the other AA's AL has its place in the game. The only problem is AL's imbalance of pros and cons.
The pro list has multiple entries. The con list has one, immobility.
Now, don't forget the pro list helps to alleviate this one con...(EMP, melee stun, 360 view)
The problem is with AL's [i]balance[/i].
To touch back on your joke, a corner is balanced to every player that decides to use it and even to the players it is used against. It exhibits only one pro and one con, separation. This is applied equally to both the attacker and defender.
Armor Lock, on the other hand, lets the user wield much more power than a corner ever could.[/quote]
well said bro! well said!
the main problem that i see with armor lock isnt the armor locker himself, its that at higher levels of play, using armor lock basically guarantees you a +90% survival rate provided that your teammates arent completely horrible. all they really have to do is listen, and comprehend in the first 3 seconds of you calling out where the guy is (whos about to grenade you when you come out of it) then chuck a mini nuke in that players general vacinity and mop him up.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Lord Bryne
Okay, it's obvious that armor abilities like armor lock are a crutch for the nooby, extending their lives by pressing a button, but I'd like to draw attention to a much more nooby feature of Reach:
[quote]CORNERS[/quote]
I would dearly like someone to explain to me what the heck Bungie was thinking when they decided to put these in the game. They have to be the biggest crutch for the cowardly that I have ever seen. I can barely count the number of times that I've been screwed over by a noob/camper that used a corner. It's like every time I'm about to kill someone, they just have to push their joystick in the general direction of a corner, and suddenly they can live. And even if I try to follow them to finish off the kill, they throw a grenade on the ground at the corner, and I either have to back off and let them get away or keep going and risk getting hit by the grenade and then subsequently headshotted. This is pure cowardice. I could out-DMR the crap out of them, get them to one shot while barely taking a hit, yet it doesn't matter, because they're at a corner. All I can really do is spam grenades at them and hope to get lucky, and even that isn't an ideal use for my grenades.
[quote]Why corners are overpowered[/quote]
Advantages of a corner include:
1. Semi-invulnerability. All you have to do is sit right by the corner, and when you're getting shot from one side, you move to the other and BAM! you're safe.
2. Escape routes. If you're fighting a losing battle, run to a corner and you'll have perfect cover to get away entirely. Throw a grenade at the corner to make sure no one can pursue you.
3. Concealment. No one can see you around a corner, so all you have to do is wait there and watch your radar, ambush whoever
4. Minimal exposure. When you're at a corner, you have far fewer directions to worry about than you would otherwise, as the number of sightlines that threaten your position are significantly reduced.
[b][i]There are no disadvantages to using a corner[/i].[/b]
Now this wouldn't be such a huge problem if any of the above advantages required skill to utilize them, but they don't require any skill whatsoever. You simply have to [b][i]be at the corner[/i][/b] to gain all the advantages.
[quote]Why corners should be removed[/quote]
Corners slow down gameplay far more than anything else ever could. Imagine how fast a team slayer game would go if there were no corners to hide behind. Armor lock doesn't even come close, and at least it has SOME disadvantages... Not to mention, as I said before, you don't need to be skilled to receive the advantages a corner offers, you simply have to push your joystick towards them and it all falls into your lap. They also encourage camping, which of course is also a huge detriment to gameplay. Seriously, what better reason could you find to sit in just one specific spot than the advantage a corner offers?
I'm sure people are thinking "If both you and your opponent can use a corner, then what's the problem?" The very fact that you HAVE to resort to using a corner in order to succeed is, in itself, a flaw, but beyond that, there is absolutely no guarantee that when you spawn, there'll be a corner available to you, and even if there is, you can either choose to be camper, or take a huge risk moving to a different corner to put yourself nearer the action. I guarantee that if corners were removed, the more skilled player would win far more often than they currently do, because no one could depend on these unbalanced abominations.
TL;DR: The bottom line is corners turn matchmaking into a crapfest, allowing anyone to survive a fight that they might lose, like true cowards and noobs. Anyone with a decent amount of skill would stay and kill or get killed.
If bungie doesn't release a title update soon that gives us slayer gametypes and maps with dmr-only, no melee damage, no armor ability, 3 shot kills in big alleyways with teams spawning at either end with nothing to hide behind and maybe some pretty decorations on the walls, I'm gonna snap my disc in half.
:P
You may notice that I posted this topic twice, and that's because, having not created many topics, I wasn't aware that the poll question would turn into the topic title...[/quote]
epic win post. 10/10
what you are forgetting, however, is that armor lockers can use corners too, cept when they do they can still save themselves from banked grenades around the corners (meaning its more of a problem this way lol.)

Uh, the thing about the poker analogy, I really just meant I use it as an analogy about random mechanics removing skill. The idea being, there's plenty of skillful competition in poker, even though the game is based on unknowns and randomization.
Anyway, you know, by the pro's vs con's style argument, I'd say evade is much more overpowered than armor lock. It's really a meaningless argument anyway, since people will place arbitrary value on different pros and cons.
Like me, I think mobility is a huge plus, which is why I use virtually nothing but evade and sprint. And I don't think frosting is a huge advantage, I find it's easily dealt with, and rarely turns the tables. What basis do you have to convince me otherwise? And vice-versa? There's too much ambiguity.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Gildersneeze
[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] no weakness
[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Lord Bryne
Since I'm not interested in continuing the joke, here's a serious response: isn't accounting and reacting a skill in and of itself? Lots of people like to say you can't deal with random. Well, not every time no. But a skilled/experienced player will come out on top far more often than not, right? And that's what sets them apart. I like using poker as an analogy.[/quote]I'll stick with your poker analogy and say this: Armor Lock is similar to having an Ace up your sleeve. Nobody knows you have it [/quote]Here's where your analogy flops (ho ho ho, poker jokes). Ever hear the expression "fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me?" If you're not paying attention to the big red name that shows up once you see an Armor Locker, then you really need to start. You only get the element of surprise once unless you're changing AAs frequently between deaths. Once I see someone use Armor Lock, I will assume he/she is using it until I see them use a different AA and only fight them at range if at all possible. I'll attempt to have a teammate or two focus-fire them with me whenever possible so they don't have time to activate it. I won't waste stickies on them unless I've personally seen them lock twice/lock long enough to not be able to shed it.
You know who they are; you know what they have. Make them play the game on your terms instead of you playing on theirs.
Honestly, though, the whole poker analogy featuring a card cheat is completely off base. AL is within the rules of the game; no matter how much it annoys you, it ain't cheating.[/quote]Ok buddy? Let me rephrase that...Armor Lock is similar to having an Ace up your sleeve. Nobody knows you have it but you are free to use it anytime you feel you are about to be beaten. Oh and guess what, after you use it, you get to put it back up your sleeve. However, now everybody knows you have an ace up your sleeve, but can do nothing about it, besides not engaging in a hand with you.
And never once did I mention "cheating." The analogy is intended to convey the situation where a player that is being beaten, uses an outside source to level the playing field or take the upper hand. Obviously using a hidden card is cheating in the game of poker. Using AL, because it is part of the game, is not. However the analogy still stands. AL is a crutch, just as is playing with a hidden Ace. Whether it's "cheating" or not is irrelevant.
In all honestly you're completely missing the point. Your reply seems to be telling me to simply be aware of who is using Armor Lock and when. Well, to that I say no -blam!-!
I never said I have a problem keeping track of which players in game are using AL or disposing of them.
The [i]point[/i] is that even if I know they are using Armor Lock, I can take them down to 1 shot, they AL, I get to wait 6 seconds hoping not to get engaged by their teammates, only to watch the AL user regain his shields, jump out of Armor Lock, facing the direction he so chooses, and run behind a wall, all while taking two shots to the head - without taking damage - thanks to frosting.
Do ya get it now?
And @jdawgmillenium1, dude, please take and English course and learn how to coherently write and structure a reply. Because in all honesty, I don't know what the -blam!- you were trying to say...

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] no weakness
[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Lord Bryne
Since I'm not interested in continuing the joke, here's a serious response: isn't accounting and reacting a skill in and of itself? Lots of people like to say you can't deal with random. Well, not every time no. But a skilled/experienced player will come out on top far more often than not, right? And that's what sets them apart. I like using poker as an analogy.[/quote]I'll stick with your poker analogy and say this: Armor Lock is similar to having an Ace up your sleeve. Nobody knows you have it [/quote]Here's where your analogy flops (ho ho ho, poker jokes). Ever hear the expression "fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me?" If you're not paying attention to the big red name that shows up once you see an Armor Locker, then you really need to start. You only get the element of surprise once unless you're changing AAs frequently between deaths. Once I see someone use Armor Lock, I will assume he/she is using it until I see them use a different AA and only fight them at range if at all possible. I'll attempt to have a teammate or two focus-fire them with me whenever possible so they don't have time to activate it. I won't waste stickies on them unless I've personally seen them lock twice/lock long enough to not be able to shed it.
You know who they are; you know what they have. Make them play the game on your terms instead of you playing on theirs.
Honestly, though, the whole poker analogy featuring a card cheat is completely off base. AL is within the rules of the game; no matter how much it annoys you, it ain't cheating.