Sound follows the inverse square law.A 6 dB reduction is the same as doubling the distance.A 24 dB reduction is equivalent to increasing the distance by 2x2x2x2= 16xA 25 dB suppressor makes a weapons sound seem to be 16x further away.

how loud was the music at the concert?

how loud were the shots at the distance where the concert was? (not at the shooter)

A 25 dB reduction is a very large reduction, the same as being 16x further away.

A 25 dB drop could very well have made the shots inaudible ____under the music____.

Sound follows the inverse square law.A 6 dB reduction is the same as doubling the distance.A 24 dB reduction is equivalent to increasing the distance by 2x2x2x2= 16xA 25 dB suppressor makes a weapons sound seem to be 16x further away.how loud was the music at the concert?how loud were the shots at the distance where the concert was? (not at the shooter)A 25 dB reduction is a very large reduction, the same as being 16x further away.A 25 dB drop could very well have made the shots inaudible ____under the music____.Feel free to check those facts.m

The people there said they did not realize they were being shot atuntil people started falling.

Sound follows the inverse square law.A 6 dB reduction is the same as doubling the distance.A 24 dB reduction is equivalent to increasing the distance by 2x2x2x2= 16xA 25 dB suppressor makes a weapons sound seem to be 16x further away.how loud was the music at the concert?how loud were the shots at the distance where the concert was? (not at the shooter)A 25 dB reduction is a very large reduction, the same as being 16x further away.A 25 dB drop could very well have made the shots inaudible ____under the music____.Feel free to check those facts.m

The people there said they did not realize they were being shot atuntil people started falling.

The videos and interviews I saw, people heard the shots, that was theinitial heads up, what's going on, indication. Initially most peopleweren't sure what it was, many said they thought it was firecrackers.But there is no disputing that the sound was the first indicationthat something unusual was going on.

Sound follows the inverse square law.A 6 dB reduction is the same as doubling the distance.A 24 dB reduction is equivalent to increasing the distance by 2x2x2x2= 16xA 25 dB suppressor makes a weapons sound seem to be 16x further away.how loud was the music at the concert?how loud were the shots at the distance where the concert was? (not at the shooter)A 25 dB reduction is a very large reduction, the same as being 16x further away.A 25 dB drop could very well have made the shots inaudible ____under the music____.Feel free to check those facts.m

The people there said they did not realize they were being shot atuntil people started falling.

The videos and interviews I saw, people heard the shots, that was theinitial heads up, what's going on, indication. Initially most peopleweren't sure what it was, many said they thought it was firecrackers.But there is no disputing that the sound was the first indicationthat something unusual was going on.

"something going on" is not really a warning and nobody was ducking orrunning until they saw people going down.This is a red herring from the gun dumb left.

Post by g***@aol.comThe people there said they did not realize they were being shot atuntil people started falling.

The videos and interviews I saw, people heard the shots, that was theinitial heads up, what's going on, indication. Initially most peopleweren't sure what it was, many said they thought it was firecrackers.But there is no disputing that the sound was the first indicationthat something unusual was going on.

"something going on" is not really a warning and nobody was ducking orrunning until they saw people going down.This is a red herring from the gun dumb left.

Yep.

Consider also that Paddock allegedly was using weapons equipped with"Bumper Stocks" to achieve near full automatic fire. BATFE consideredbumper stocks a novelty since they only increase rate of fire whilesimultaneously decreasing accuracy. So Paddock was in "pray and spray"mode and merely trying to contain his fire in a specific area ratherthan singling out individual targets.

Given that the area in which the victims were contained was nothing morethan a glorified "corral" he was shooting fish in a barrel, I wouldargue the the only thing which would affect the number of casualties inthis incident was the rate of fire. Whether they could hear the shotsor no, whether they ran or stood still, their chances of being shot weremore or less random. Crowding them further into one specific area - sayan exit pathway - might have increased Paddock's effectiveness. Or not!

Suppressors or not, I don't believe it would have made any difference.Take away the bumper stocks and you have a whole different argument. .Maybe!

Post by g***@aol.comThe people there said they did not realize they were being shot atuntil people started falling.

The videos and interviews I saw, people heard the shots, that was theinitial heads up, what's going on, indication. Initially most peopleweren't sure what it was, many said they thought it was firecrackers.But there is no disputing that the sound was the first indicationthat something unusual was going on.

"something going on" is not really a warning and nobody was ducking orrunning until they saw people going down.This is a red herring from the gun dumb left.

Yep.

It's sad that it comes down to name calling, that anyone that thinksthe sound of a gun shot serves as a warning, a heads-up, is nowthe "dumb left".

If it's so dumb, why is that exactly the principle articulated by thosehunters in the Gun Digest article I cited? That with a silencer, youcan kill a whole herd of elk, instead of one?

Post by Unquestionably ConfusedConsider also that Paddock allegedly was using weapons equipped with"Bumper Stocks" to achieve near full automatic fire. BATFE consideredbumper stocks a novelty since they only increase rate of fire whilesimultaneously decreasing accuracy. So Paddock was in "pray and spray"mode and merely trying to contain his fire in a specific area ratherthan singling out individual targets.

Which of course is irrelevant to the silencer issue. And even the NRAno longer considersthem novelties. Funny, I didn't see the NRA warning about them beforethe tragedy, being the good citizens they claim to be.

Post by trader_4It's sad that it comes down to name calling, that anyone that thinksthe sound of a gun shot serves as a warning, a heads-up,

From 300 yards away, you will not even hear the shot that kills you.The fact remains that the sound of the gunfire did not really warnthese people. People thought it must just be fireworks somewhere. Itwas the other people around them getting shot that gave them the"heads up" ... or heads down in this caseAt that point the sound of the gun may have worsened the panic.

Post by Unquestionably ConfusedSuppressors or not, I don't believe it would have made any difference.Take away the bumper stocks and you have a whole different argument. .Maybe!

Maybe...

It's not an AR-15 and very few people are as good as Jerry Miculek but abump fire stock isn't necessary. It could be argued a good shooter witha dialed in scope could do much more damage with aimed fire. Even give aleisurely 2 seconds to acquire a target and fire a mad minute could rackup 30 fatalities.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_minute

Keep in mind that the Brits were using bolt action rifles, not modernsemi-automatics.

Sound follows the inverse square law.A 6 dB reduction is the same as doubling the distance.A 24 dB reduction is equivalent to increasing the distance by 2x2x2x2= 16xA 25 dB suppressor makes a weapons sound seem to be 16x further away.how loud was the music at the concert?how loud were the shots at the distance where the concert was? (not at the shooter)A 25 dB reduction is a very large reduction, the same as being 16x further away.A 25 dB drop could very well have made the shots inaudible ____under the music____.Feel free to check those facts.m

The people there said they did not realize they were being shot atuntil people started falling.

The videos and interviews I saw, people heard the shots, that was theinitial heads up, what's going on, indication. Initially most peopleweren't sure what it was, many said they thought it was firecrackers.But there is no disputing that the sound was the first indicationthat something unusual was going on.

"something going on" is not really a warning and nobody was ducking orrunning until they saw people going down.This is a red herring from the gun dumb left.

Now you're just being ridiculous. Watch those videos. As the shotsare first fired, people are reacting to the noise, on alert, tryingto figure out what's going on. That is very obvious from lookingat some of the videos, people are questioning what's going on.It's part of the process of figuring out whether to duck or run.When you hear a gun fired, you take notice.If people started dropping, no sound, it could take much longer.Funny, that's exactly the principle articulated by those huntersin the article I cited from Gun Digest. No silencer, the elkimmediately run, you get one. With a silencer you can kill many more.

Post by g***@aol.comThe people there said they did not realize they were being shot atuntil people started falling.

Folks that visit here think of fireworks, being "Vegas" and all. Acondition people fall into.Practice situational awareness, get the face out of the phone and payattention of what is happening around you. Just sayin'.

What was happening around them was a music concert, probably fairlyloud. Awareness helps, but not if you are #1 target in this situation..

Post by g***@aol.comThe people there said they did not realize they were being shot atuntil people started falling.

Folks that visit here think of fireworks, being "Vegas" and all. Acondition people fall into.Practice situational awareness, get the face out of the phone and payattention of what is happening around you. Just sayin'.

During the Rodney King riots I happened to be at the LA terminal whichwas just off Ball Rd and State College. Disneyland is about a mile away.I was sitting in my truck reading when the Disneyland nightly fireworksdisplay started. No, I did not think it was fireworks, and yes, I wasout of that truck, locked and loaded, damn fast. But I'm a little on theparanoid side.

Sound follows the inverse square law.A 6 dB reduction is the same as doubling the distance.A 24 dB reduction is equivalent to increasing the distance by 2x2x2x2= 16xA 25 dB suppressor makes a weapons sound seem to be 16x further away.how loud was the music at the concert?how loud were the shots at the distance where the concert was? (not at the shooter)A 25 dB reduction is a very large reduction, the same as being 16x further away.A 25 dB drop could very well have made the shots inaudible ____under the music____.Feel free to check those facts.m

The people there said they did not realize they were being shot atuntil people started falling.

The shots were very audible in the cell phone videos shot from the concert.

Post by g***@aol.comThe people there said they did not realize they were being shot atuntil people started falling.

The shots were very audible in the cell phone videos shot from the concert.

There was not a 110 dB band playing and thousands of people cheeringthen tho.

The band was playing, IIRC, at the time the shots started in one of thevideos I saw.

Not the ones I saw. People were running around in panic.

Why would they be running around in panic, if no one heard any shots?

http://people.com/crime/mark-gray-witness-las-vegas-shooting/

“I was there with friends. We’ve gone every year for the past four years,” says Gray, who was in an outdoor area outside a ground level suite on the left side of the stage when singer Jason Aldean took the stage at around 9:45 pm on Sunday.

“It was just as normal as can be. He was on his fourth song and really just kind of starting, and I was talking two my friends when I started to hear ‘pop, pop, pop.’ It sounded like a firecracker, and one of the girls I was with said, ‘That just hit me. My leg stings.’ And then the girl next to her said, ‘It hit me too.’ ”

Gray now thinks the women were hit by tiny bits of shrapnel — “Whatever it was, it wasn’t strong enough to break the denim of their jeans.” But by then, he saw that another woman, in the suite next door, was being dragged onto a couch.

“I couldn’t see if she was bleeding, but she was pretty hysterical. Right at that moment we heard ‘pop pop pop’ again. We realized they were gun shots.”

Monique Dumas, at the concert with her sister

Canadian Monique Dumas said she was standing six rows back from the main stage when she heard gunfire for "four or five minutes".

"We were watching Jason Aldean … when my sister and I heard what sounded like a bottle breaking or dropping to the ground," she said.

"You kind of just looked around and then seconds later you hear like a 'pop, pop, pop'.

Christine said after the first round of shots, Aldean ran off the stage.Then people began "screaming, and falling and running", she said.

Clint, valet at the Mandalay Bay

Clint was working inside the hotel where Paddock was holed up on the 32nd floor.Emergency vehicles with lights on crowd a road intersection near the Mandalay Bay hotel. Photo: The Mandalay Bay hotel is on the Las Vegas Strip. (Reuters: Las Vegas Sun/Steve Marcus)

"[The gunfire] sounded like a jackhammer," he said.

"We just heard a burst of guns, we didn't know what it was. And then we started seeing more glass coming down."

Post by g***@aol.comThe people there said they did not realize they were being shot atuntil people started falling.

The shots were very audible in the cell phone videos shot from the concert.

There was not a 110 dB band playing and thousands of people cheeringthen tho.

The band was playing, IIRC, at the time the shots started in one of thevideos I saw.

Not the ones I saw. People were running around in panic.

Why would they be running around in panic, if no one heard any shots?http://people.com/crime/mark-gray-witness-las-vegas-shooting/“I was there with friends. We’ve gone every year for the past four years,” says Gray, who was in an outdoor area outside a ground level suite on the left side of the stage when singer Jason Aldean took the stage at around 9:45 pm on Sunday.“It was just as normal as can be. He was on his fourth song and really just kind of starting, and I was talking two my friends when I started to hear ‘pop, pop, pop.’ It sounded like a firecracker, and one of the girls I was with said, ‘That just hit me. My leg stings.’ And then the girl next to her said, ‘It hit me too.’ ”Gray now thinks the women were hit by tiny bits of shrapnel — “Whatever it was, it wasn’t strong enough to break the denim of their jeans.” But by then, he saw that another woman, in the suite next door, was being dragged onto a couch.“I couldn’t see if she was bleeding, but she was pretty hysterical. Right at that moment we heard ‘pop pop pop’ again. We realized they were gun shots.”

They did not know it was a gun until they saw people getting hit. Yourlink just confirmed what I said originally. It was not the sound ofgunfire fire that got them running, it was the blood.

Post by g***@aol.comThe people there said they did not realize they were being shot atuntil people started falling.

The shots were very audible in the cell phone videos shot from the concert.

There was not a 110 dB band playing and thousands of people cheeringthen tho.

The band was playing, IIRC, at the time the shots started in one of thevideos I saw.

Not the ones I saw. People were running around in panic.

Why would they be running around in panic, if no one heard any shots?http://people.com/crime/mark-gray-witness-las-vegas-shooting/“I was there with friends. We’ve gone every year for the past four years,” says Gray, who was in an outdoor area outside a ground level suite on the left side of the stage when singer Jason Aldean took the stage at around 9:45 pm on Sunday.“It was just as normal as can be. He was on his fourth song and really just kind of starting, and I was talking two my friends when I started to hear ‘pop, pop, pop.’ It sounded like a firecracker, and one of the girls I was with said, ‘That just hit me. My leg stings.’ And then the girl next to her said, ‘It hit me too.’ ”Gray now thinks the women were hit by tiny bits of shrapnel — “Whatever it was, it wasn’t strong enough to break the denim of their jeans.” But by then, he saw that another woman, in the suite next door, was being dragged onto a couch.“I couldn’t see if she was bleeding, but she was pretty hysterical. Right at that moment we heard ‘pop pop pop’ again. We realized they were gun shots.”

They did not know it was a gun until they saw people getting hit. Yourlink just confirmed what I said originally. It was not the sound ofgunfire fire that got them running, it was the blood.

Nowhere does it say anything close to what you're claiming. What I postedshows even though the band was performing, playing loud music, people heardthe shots and first became aware that something was possibly wrongbecause of the sound of the shots. They clearly heard them regardlessof the fact that the band was playing, they heard the shots over themusic. So the argument that people could not hear the shots becauseof the band is totally bogus. It was the sound that firstalerted them. Would they have heard the shots, reacted if a silencerwas used? I tend to doubt it, the Gun Digest article showed thatwhen hunting, elk run with no silencer, don't run with one. Funny,I thought that was one of the real reasons hunters wanted to use them,But now, no, it's all about "hearing protection". They could run some simpletests to find out how audible the shots would have been with a silencer.And nowhere in the above does it say that it was bloodthat got them running. In fact, one person says he could not seeif a person was bleeding. Amazing how you can read what's not there.

It probably doesn't matter at this point, that bill is very likelydead now.

Post by trader_4That just hit me. My leg stings.’ And then the girl next to her said, ‘It hit me too.’ ”

Sounds pretty conclusive to me. It was the "hits", not the sound thattold them they were in trouble. They thought they were hearingfireworks.Of course these were just fragments of bullets. What did the peoplewho saw others falling in a pool of blood say.

Post by g***@aol.comThe people there said they did not realize they were being shot atuntil people started falling.

The shots were very audible in the cell phone videos shot from the concert.

There was not a 110 dB band playing and thousands of people cheeringthen tho.

The band was playing, IIRC, at the time the shots started in one of thevideos I saw.

Not the ones I saw. People were running around in panic.

Why would they be running around in panic, if no one heard any shots?http://people.com/crime/mark-gray-witness-las-vegas-shooting/"I was there with friends. We've gone every year for the past fouryears," says Gray, who was in an outdoor area outside a ground levelsuite on the left side of the stage when singer Jason Aldean took thestage at around 9:45 pm on Sunday."It was just as normal as can be. He was on his fourth song and reallyjust kind of starting, and I was talking two my friends when I started tohear 'pop, pop, pop.' It sounded like a firecracker, and one of the girlsI was with said, 'That just hit me. My leg stings.' And then the girlnext to her said, 'It hit me too.' "Gray now thinks the women were hit by tiny bits of shrapnel - "Whateverit was, it wasn't strong enough to break the denim of their jeans." Butby then, he saw that another woman, in the suite next door, was beingdragged onto a couch."I couldn't see if she was bleeding, but she was pretty hysterical. Rightat that moment we heard 'pop pop pop' again. We realized they were gunshots."

They did not know it was a gun until they saw people getting hit. Yourlink just confirmed what I said originally. It was not the sound ofgunfire fire that got them running, it was the blood.

Nowhere does it say anything close to what you're claiming. What I postedshows even though the band was performing, playing loud music, people heardthe shots and first became aware that something was possibly wrongbecause of the sound of the shots. They clearly heard them regardlessof the fact that the band was playing, they heard the shots over themusic. So the argument that people could not hear the shots becauseof the band is totally bogus. It was the sound that firstalerted them. Would they have heard the shots, reacted if a silencerwas used? I tend to doubt it, the Gun Digest article showed thatwhen hunting, elk run with no silencer, don't run with one. Funny,I thought that was one of the real reasons hunters wanted to use them,But now, no, it's all about "hearing protection". They could run somesimpletests to find out how audible the shots would have been with a silencer.And nowhere in the above does it say that it was bloodthat got them running. In fact, one person says he could not seeif a person was bleeding. Amazing how you can read what's not there.

It probably doesn't matter at this point, that bill is very likelydead now.

Post by g***@aol.comThe people there said they did not realize they were being shot atuntil people started falling.

The shots were very audible in the cell phone videos shot from the concert.

There was not a 110 dB band playing and thousands of people cheeringthen tho.

The band was playing, IIRC, at the time the shots started in one of thevideos I saw.

Not the ones I saw. People were running around in panic.

In practical terms it's very hard to determine where a shooter is because ofthe reverberation off of buildings, etc. Muzzle flash is better. In somecities they have strategically placed listening devices to pinpoint thelocation.

Post by TekkieÂ®In practical terms it's very hard to determine where a shooter is because ofthe reverberation off of buildings, etc. Muzzle flash is better. In somecities they have strategically placed listening devices to pinpoint thelocation.

+1

Called "shot spotter". The units have to be up 30 ft or so. Ittriangulates the shots near instantly and provides the GPS. (<45seconds)

Las Vegas does not have the system. About 90 large metro areas do havethem.

Post by TekkieÂ®In practical terms it's very hard to determine where a shooter is because ofthe reverberation off of buildings, etc. Muzzle flash is better. In somecities they have strategically placed listening devices to pinpoint thelocation.

+1Called "shot spotter". The units have to be up 30 ft or so. Ittriangulates the shots near instantly and provides the GPS. (<45seconds)Las Vegas does not have the system. About 90 large metro areas do havethem.<http://www.shotspotter.com/technology>

Unfortunately the system doesn't work as well as the company'spromotional literature claims. No surprise there.

Post by TekkieÂ®In practical terms it's very hard to determine where a shooter is because ofthe reverberation off of buildings, etc. Muzzle flash is better. In somecities they have strategically placed listening devices to pinpoint thelocation.

+1Called "shot spotter". The units have to be up 30 ft or so. Ittriangulates the shots near instantly and provides the GPS. (<45seconds)Las Vegas does not have the system. About 90 large metro areas do havethem.<http://www.shotspotter.com/technology>

After watching some new and old videos, it's possible to triangulate withtcurrent videos recorded. I'm hearing two shooters. Someone also brilliantlycalculated times of hits vs shoots. There are two distinct shootersseparated by almost 200 meters. You hear the hits well before the shoots,supersonic flight, but there are two time delays. I also saw flashes from32 floor of Mandalay. Not much heard about the fellow two floors saying ittook 72 minutes for swat to enter. There were two other fellows reportingnearby, as well as another maintenance guy. Lots of stuff.

Post by TekkieÂ®In practical terms it's very hard to determine where a shooter is because ofthe reverberation off of buildings, etc. Muzzle flash is better. In somecities they have strategically placed listening devices to pinpoint thelocation.

+1Called "shot spotter". The units have to be up 30 ft or so. Ittriangulates the shots near instantly and provides the GPS. (<45seconds)Las Vegas does not have the system. About 90 large metro areas do havethem.<http://www.shotspotter.com/technology>

After watching some new and old videos, it's possible to triangulate withtcurrent videos recorded. I'm hearing two shooters. Someone also brilliantlycalculated times of hits vs shoots. There are two distinct shootersseparated by almost 200 meters. You hear the hits well before the shoots,supersonic flight, but there are two time delays. I also saw flashes from32 floor of Mandalay. Not much heard about the fellow two floors saying ittook 72 minutes for swat to enter.

To enter what? It was widely reported from the very beginning that thepolice did not breech the hotel room door until until about 72 minsafter the attack began. They entered the hotel much earlier, were onthe 31st floor about 18 mins in. That part continues to change.

What's shocking to me is that a week in, the police suddenly changedthe timeline and it's not just the minutes. More problematic is thesequence. In the early days, they had the arrival of the hotel securityguard ending the attack. Now they say he arrived for a totally unrelatedalarm about an open door on the floor, that his arrival prompted thefirst shooting, at him. He was wounded, the attack on the crowd started6 mins later. I can understand how timelines need to be adjusted formins, but how could the whole sequence be wrong for a week? Where hasthis guard been? You;d think he'd be calling police, saying hey, theway you're telling it is all wrong.

Also troubling,

What are the odds of an unrelated door open alarm occurring at the same time?

It's been reported that Paddock fired 200 rounds through the door atthe security guard and that he had cameras installed in the hall so hecould see the hall outside. The security guard heard drilling comingfrom the room, he went to see what it was about. Paddock was wellprepared, well armed, could see the guy in the hall, why didn't hejust answer the door and kill him? Seems far more certain than shootingthrough the door. And if you were firing through the door, you'dthink you'd act like you were answering the door, so the guard wouldbe right outside.

The guard was shot in the leg, yet the police say he was still on the32 floor when an building engineer found him. Wouldn't you crawlthe hell out of there?

The hotel said yesterday that they believe the new police timelineis incorrect, but would not say anything more, like WHY?

There is a lot there for all kinds of speculation. You'd think bynow we'd have all the 911 calls. Instead, we don't even know ifthe hotel made a 911 call following the security guard getting shot.The official story is that he notified hotel security when he wasshot, I think there are tapes of that, but then nothing about whenthe hotel called 911 or if they called at all. We have heard thatthere was at least one 911 call from a guest on the 31st floorwho heard the shooting, presumably that was the first event, theshooting of the guard.

The police have made a real mess of this and have done little toclear it up.

Post by TekkieÂ®In practical terms it's very hard to determine where a shooter is because ofthe reverberation off of buildings, etc. Muzzle flash is better. In somecities they have strategically placed listening devices to pinpoint thelocation.

+1Called "shot spotter". The units have to be up 30 ft or so. Ittriangulates the shots near instantly and provides the GPS. (<45seconds)Las Vegas does not have the system. About 90 large metro areas do havethem.<http://www.shotspotter.com/technology>

After watching some new and old videos, it's possible to triangulate withtcurrent videos recorded. I'm hearing two shooters. Someone also brilliantlycalculated times of hits vs shoots. There are two distinct shootersseparated by almost 200 meters. You hear the hits well before the shoots,supersonic flight, but there are two time delays. I also saw flashes from32 floor of Mandalay. Not much heard about the fellow two floors saying ittook 72 minutes for swat to enter.

To enter what? It was widely reported from the very beginning that thepolice did not breech the hotel room door until until about 72 minsafter the attack began. They entered the hotel much earlier, were onthe 31st floor about 18 mins in. That part continues to change.What's shocking to me is that a week in, the police suddenly changedthe timeline and it's not just the minutes. More problematic is thesequence. In the early days, they had the arrival of the hotel securityguard ending the attack. Now they say he arrived for a totally unrelatedalarm about an open door on the floor, that his arrival prompted thefirst shooting, at him. He was wounded, the attack on the crowd started6 mins later. I can understand how timelines need to be adjusted formins, but how could the whole sequence be wrong for a week? Where hasthis guard been? You;d think he'd be calling police, saying hey, theway you're telling it is all wrong.Also troubling,What are the odds of an unrelated door open alarm occurring at the same time?It's been reported that Paddock fired 200 rounds through the door atthe security guard and that he had cameras installed in the hall so hecould see the hall outside. The security guard heard drilling comingfrom the room, he went to see what it was about. Paddock was wellprepared, well armed, could see the guy in the hall, why didn't hejust answer the door and kill him? Seems far more certain than shootingthrough the door. And if you were firing through the door, you'dthink you'd act like you were answering the door, so the guard wouldbe right outside.The guard was shot in the leg, yet the police say he was still on the32 floor when an building engineer found him. Wouldn't you crawlthe hell out of there?The hotel said yesterday that they believe the new police timelineis incorrect, but would not say anything more, like WHY?There is a lot there for all kinds of speculation. You'd think bynow we'd have all the 911 calls. Instead, we don't even know ifthe hotel made a 911 call following the security guard getting shot.The official story is that he notified hotel security when he wasshot, I think there are tapes of that, but then nothing about whenthe hotel called 911 or if they called at all. We have heard thatthere was at least one 911 call from a guest on the 31st floorwho heard the shooting, presumably that was the first event, theshooting of the guard.The police have made a real mess of this and have done little toclear it up.

It certainly points out the stupidity of saying a silencer would havemade this worse.If firing 200 unsuppressed shots at a security guard wasn't reportedby all the other guests on that floor and did not raise the alarm,then the sound of gun shots is not all that alarming. The otherquestion is why there was no 911 call right then. Everyone has a phonethese days and the guard most certainly had a radio.I agree something stinks here. It is not surprising that we get somany whacky conspiracy theories. I hope George Bush and Dick Cheneyhave good alibis ;-)

Post by TekkieÂ®In practical terms it's very hard to determine where a shooter is because ofthe reverberation off of buildings, etc. Muzzle flash is better. In somecities they have strategically placed listening devices to pinpoint thelocation.

+1Called "shot spotter". The units have to be up 30 ft or so. Ittriangulates the shots near instantly and provides the GPS. (<45seconds)Las Vegas does not have the system. About 90 large metro areas do havethem.<http://www.shotspotter.com/technology>

After watching some new and old videos, it's possible to triangulate withtcurrent videos recorded. I'm hearing two shooters. Someone also brilliantlycalculated times of hits vs shoots. There are two distinct shootersseparated by almost 200 meters. You hear the hits well before the shoots,supersonic flight, but there are two time delays. I also saw flashes from32 floor of Mandalay. Not much heard about the fellow two floors saying ittook 72 minutes for swat to enter.

To enter what? It was widely reported from the very beginning that thepolice did not breech the hotel room door until until about 72 minsafter the attack began. They entered the hotel much earlier, were onthe 31st floor about 18 mins in. That part continues to change.What's shocking to me is that a week in, the police suddenly changedthe timeline and it's not just the minutes. More problematic is thesequence. In the early days, they had the arrival of the hotel securityguard ending the attack. Now they say he arrived for a totally unrelatedalarm about an open door on the floor, that his arrival prompted thefirst shooting, at him. He was wounded, the attack on the crowd started6 mins later. I can understand how timelines need to be adjusted formins, but how could the whole sequence be wrong for a week? Where hasthis guard been? You;d think he'd be calling police, saying hey, theway you're telling it is all wrong.Also troubling,What are the odds of an unrelated door open alarm occurring at the same time?It's been reported that Paddock fired 200 rounds through the door atthe security guard and that he had cameras installed in the hall so hecould see the hall outside. The security guard heard drilling comingfrom the room, he went to see what it was about. Paddock was wellprepared, well armed, could see the guy in the hall, why didn't hejust answer the door and kill him? Seems far more certain than shootingthrough the door. And if you were firing through the door, you'dthink you'd act like you were answering the door, so the guard wouldbe right outside.The guard was shot in the leg, yet the police say he was still on the32 floor when an building engineer found him. Wouldn't you crawlthe hell out of there?The hotel said yesterday that they believe the new police timelineis incorrect, but would not say anything more, like WHY?There is a lot there for all kinds of speculation. You'd think bynow we'd have all the 911 calls. Instead, we don't even know ifthe hotel made a 911 call following the security guard getting shot.The official story is that he notified hotel security when he wasshot, I think there are tapes of that, but then nothing about whenthe hotel called 911 or if they called at all. We have heard thatthere was at least one 911 call from a guest on the 31st floorwho heard the shooting, presumably that was the first event, theshooting of the guard.The police have made a real mess of this and have done little toclear it up.

It certainly points out the stupidity of saying a silencer would havemade this worse.If firing 200 unsuppressed shots at a security guard wasn't reportedby all the other guests on that floor and did not raise the alarm,then the sound of gun shots is not all that alarming.

And how do you know exactly how many guests called 911 or the hotel to reportthe shots? Clearly the police have said that at least one did call 911,from the 31st floor, alerted by the shots. Not by blood, not by bullets,but by the sound. That call apparently came 6 mins before he opened fireon the concert. Six mins is a long time and that 6 mins, in this case,came from the fact that shots were heard inside the hotel. The evidencefully supports exactly the opposite of what you're claiming. You'reclaiming that as it was, not many calls came in. But enough did, itmay have been the first call to police. Now if it was a limited numberof calls from the sound, that strongly suggests that with significantlyless noise, no call based on shots being heard would have been made.

The other

Post by g***@aol.comquestion is why there was no 911 call right then. Everyone has a phonethese days and the guard most certainly had a radio.

There apparently was a call, right then, to 911 from a guest on the31st floor. Whether the hotel called 911, based on the guard, wedon't know. The police and hotel have not said. The police havesaid that the guard did immediately notify hotel security, via radio,they have the tape of that. What is missing is what the hotel didwith that. From their silence, hard as it is to imagine, it's soundinglike maybe they didn't call 911. You'd surely think that if they did,that someone by now would have cleared that up. Time for the reportersto make FOIA requests for the 911 logs and tapes.

Post by g***@aol.comI agree something stinks here. It is not surprising that we get somany whacky conspiracy theories. I hope George Bush and Dick Cheneyhave good alibis ;-)

Post by TekkieÂ®In practical terms it's very hard to determine where a shooter is because ofthe reverberation off of buildings, etc. Muzzle flash is better. In somecities they have strategically placed listening devices to pinpoint thelocation.

+1Called "shot spotter". The units have to be up 30 ft or so. Ittriangulates the shots near instantly and provides the GPS. (<45seconds)Las Vegas does not have the system. About 90 large metro areas do havethem.<http://www.shotspotter.com/technology>

After watching some new and old videos, it's possible to triangulate withtcurrent videos recorded. I'm hearing two shooters. Someone also brilliantlycalculated times of hits vs shoots. There are two distinct shootersseparated by almost 200 meters. You hear the hits well before the shoots,supersonic flight, but there are two time delays. I also saw flashes from32 floor of Mandalay. Not much heard about the fellow two floors saying ittook 72 minutes for swat to enter.

To enter what? It was widely reported from the very beginning that thepolice did not breech the hotel room door until until about 72 minsafter the attack began. They entered the hotel much earlier, were onthe 31st floor about 18 mins in. That part continues to change.What's shocking to me is that a week in, the police suddenly changedthe timeline and it's not just the minutes. More problematic is thesequence. In the early days, they had the arrival of the hotel securityguard ending the attack. Now they say he arrived for a totally unrelatedalarm about an open door on the floor, that his arrival prompted thefirst shooting, at him. He was wounded, the attack on the crowd started6 mins later. I can understand how timelines need to be adjusted formins, but how could the whole sequence be wrong for a week? Where hasthis guard been? You;d think he'd be calling police, saying hey, theway you're telling it is all wrong.Also troubling,What are the odds of an unrelated door open alarm occurring at the same time?It's been reported that Paddock fired 200 rounds through the door atthe security guard and that he had cameras installed in the hall so hecould see the hall outside. The security guard heard drilling comingfrom the room, he went to see what it was about. Paddock was wellprepared, well armed, could see the guy in the hall, why didn't hejust answer the door and kill him? Seems far more certain than shootingthrough the door. And if you were firing through the door, you'dthink you'd act like you were answering the door, so the guard wouldbe right outside.The guard was shot in the leg, yet the police say he was still on the32 floor when an building engineer found him. Wouldn't you crawlthe hell out of there?The hotel said yesterday that they believe the new police timelineis incorrect, but would not say anything more, like WHY?There is a lot there for all kinds of speculation. You'd think bynow we'd have all the 911 calls. Instead, we don't even know ifthe hotel made a 911 call following the security guard getting shot.The official story is that he notified hotel security when he wasshot, I think there are tapes of that, but then nothing about whenthe hotel called 911 or if they called at all. We have heard thatthere was at least one 911 call from a guest on the 31st floorwho heard the shooting, presumably that was the first event, theshooting of the guard.The police have made a real mess of this and have done little toclear it up.

It certainly points out the stupidity of saying a silencer would havemade this worse.If firing 200 unsuppressed shots at a security guard wasn't reportedby all the other guests on that floor and did not raise the alarm,then the sound of gun shots is not all that alarming.

And how do you know exactly how many guests called 911 or the hotel to reportthe shots? Clearly the police have said that at least one did call 911,from the 31st floor, alerted by the shots. Not by blood, not by bullets,but by the sound. That call apparently came 6 mins before he opened fireon the concert. Six mins is a long time and that 6 mins, in this case,came from the fact that shots were heard inside the hotel. The evidencefully supports exactly the opposite of what you're claiming. You'reclaiming that as it was, not many calls came in. But enough did, itmay have been the first call to police. Now if it was a limited numberof calls from the sound, that strongly suggests that with significantlyless noise, no call based on shots being heard would have been made.The other

Post by g***@aol.comquestion is why there was no 911 call right then. Everyone has a phonethese days and the guard most certainly had a radio.

There apparently was a call, right then, to 911 from a guest on the31st floor. Whether the hotel called 911, based on the guard, wedon't know. The police and hotel have not said. The police havesaid that the guard did immediately notify hotel security, via radio,they have the tape of that. What is missing is what the hotel didwith that. From their silence, hard as it is to imagine, it's soundinglike maybe they didn't call 911. You'd surely think that if they did,that someone by now would have cleared that up. Time for the reportersto make FOIA requests for the 911 logs and tapes.

Post by g***@aol.comI agree something stinks here. It is not surprising that we get somany whacky conspiracy theories. I hope George Bush and Dick Cheneyhave good alibis ;-)

OMG! Now you have developed LVDS, Las Vegas Derangement Syndrome. Get some help before you hurt yourself or others. Stay away from guns. ヽ(ヅ)ノ

Post by TekkieÂ®In practical terms it's very hard to determine where a shooter is because ofthe reverberation off of buildings, etc. Muzzle flash is better. In somecities they have strategically placed listening devices to pinpoint thelocation.

+1Called "shot spotter". The units have to be up 30 ft or so. Ittriangulates the shots near instantly and provides the GPS. (<45seconds)Las Vegas does not have the system. About 90 large metro areas do havethem.<http://www.shotspotter.com/technology>

After watching some new and old videos, it's possible to triangulate withtcurrent videos recorded. I'm hearing two shooters. Someone also brilliantlycalculated times of hits vs shoots. There are two distinct shootersseparated by almost 200 meters. You hear the hits well before the shoots,supersonic flight, but there are two time delays. I also saw flashes from32 floor of Mandalay. Not much heard about the fellow two floors saying ittook 72 minutes for swat to enter.

To enter what? It was widely reported from the very beginning that thepolice did not breech the hotel room door until until about 72 minsafter the attack began. They entered the hotel much earlier, were onthe 31st floor about 18 mins in. That part continues to change.What's shocking to me is that a week in, the police suddenly changedthe timeline and it's not just the minutes. More problematic is thesequence. In the early days, they had the arrival of the hotel securityguard ending the attack. Now they say he arrived for a totally unrelatedalarm about an open door on the floor, that his arrival prompted thefirst shooting, at him. He was wounded, the attack on the crowd started6 mins later. I can understand how timelines need to be adjusted formins, but how could the whole sequence be wrong for a week? Where hasthis guard been? You;d think he'd be calling police, saying hey, theway you're telling it is all wrong.Also troubling,What are the odds of an unrelated door open alarm occurring at the same time?It's been reported that Paddock fired 200 rounds through the door atthe security guard and that he had cameras installed in the hall so hecould see the hall outside. The security guard heard drilling comingfrom the room, he went to see what it was about. Paddock was wellprepared, well armed, could see the guy in the hall, why didn't hejust answer the door and kill him? Seems far more certain than shootingthrough the door. And if you were firing through the door, you'dthink you'd act like you were answering the door, so the guard wouldbe right outside.The guard was shot in the leg, yet the police say he was still on the32 floor when an building engineer found him. Wouldn't you crawlthe hell out of there?The hotel said yesterday that they believe the new police timelineis incorrect, but would not say anything more, like WHY?There is a lot there for all kinds of speculation. You'd think bynow we'd have all the 911 calls. Instead, we don't even know ifthe hotel made a 911 call following the security guard getting shot.The official story is that he notified hotel security when he wasshot, I think there are tapes of that, but then nothing about whenthe hotel called 911 or if they called at all. We have heard thatthere was at least one 911 call from a guest on the 31st floorwho heard the shooting, presumably that was the first event, theshooting of the guard.The police have made a real mess of this and have done little toclear it up.

It certainly points out the stupidity of saying a silencer would havemade this worse.If firing 200 unsuppressed shots at a security guard wasn't reportedby all the other guests on that floor and did not raise the alarm,then the sound of gun shots is not all that alarming.

And how do you know exactly how many guests called 911 or the hotel to reportthe shots? Clearly the police have said that at least one did call 911,from the 31st floor, alerted by the shots. Not by blood, not by bullets,but by the sound. That call apparently came 6 mins before he opened fireon the concert. Six mins is a long time and that 6 mins, in this case,came from the fact that shots were heard inside the hotel. The evidencefully supports exactly the opposite of what you're claiming. You'reclaiming that as it was, not many calls came in. But enough did, itmay have been the first call to police. Now if it was a limited numberof calls from the sound, that strongly suggests that with significantlyless noise, no call based on shots being heard would have been made.The other

Post by g***@aol.comquestion is why there was no 911 call right then. Everyone has a phonethese days and the guard most certainly had a radio.

There apparently was a call, right then, to 911 from a guest on the31st floor. Whether the hotel called 911, based on the guard, wedon't know. The police and hotel have not said. The police havesaid that the guard did immediately notify hotel security, via radio,they have the tape of that. What is missing is what the hotel didwith that. From their silence, hard as it is to imagine, it's soundinglike maybe they didn't call 911. You'd surely think that if they did,that someone by now would have cleared that up. Time for the reportersto make FOIA requests for the 911 logs and tapes.

Post by g***@aol.comI agree something stinks here. It is not surprising that we get somany whacky conspiracy theories. I hope George Bush and Dick Cheneyhave good alibis ;-)

OMG! Now you have developed LVDS, Las Vegas Derangement Syndrome. Get some help before you hurt yourself or others. Stay away from guns. ヽ(ヅ)ノ[8~{} Uncle Concerned Monster

Post by TekkieÂ®In practical terms it's very hard to determine where a shooter is because ofthe reverberation off of buildings, etc. Muzzle flash is better. In somecities they have strategically placed listening devices to pinpoint thelocation.

+1Called "shot spotter". The units have to be up 30 ft or so. Ittriangulates the shots near instantly and provides the GPS. (<45seconds)Las Vegas does not have the system. About 90 large metro areas do havethem.<http://www.shotspotter.com/technology>

After watching some new and old videos, it's possible to triangulate withtcurrent videos recorded. I'm hearing two shooters. Someone also brilliantlycalculated times of hits vs shoots. There are two distinct shootersseparated by almost 200 meters. You hear the hits well before the shoots,supersonic flight, but there are two time delays. I also saw flashes from32 floor of Mandalay. Not much heard about the fellow two floors saying ittook 72 minutes for swat to enter.

To enter what? It was widely reported from the very beginning that thepolice did not breech the hotel room door until until about 72 minsafter the attack began. They entered the hotel much earlier, were onthe 31st floor about 18 mins in. That part continues to change.What's shocking to me is that a week in, the police suddenly changedthe timeline and it's not just the minutes. More problematic is thesequence. In the early days, they had the arrival of the hotel securityguard ending the attack. Now they say he arrived for a totally unrelatedalarm about an open door on the floor, that his arrival prompted thefirst shooting, at him. He was wounded, the attack on the crowd started6 mins later. I can understand how timelines need to be adjusted formins, but how could the whole sequence be wrong for a week? Where hasthis guard been? You;d think he'd be calling police, saying hey, theway you're telling it is all wrong.Also troubling,What are the odds of an unrelated door open alarm occurring at the same time?It's been reported that Paddock fired 200 rounds through the door atthe security guard and that he had cameras installed in the hall so hecould see the hall outside. The security guard heard drilling comingfrom the room, he went to see what it was about. Paddock was wellprepared, well armed, could see the guy in the hall, why didn't hejust answer the door and kill him? Seems far more certain than shootingthrough the door. And if you were firing through the door, you'dthink you'd act like you were answering the door, so the guard wouldbe right outside.The guard was shot in the leg, yet the police say he was still on the32 floor when an building engineer found him. Wouldn't you crawlthe hell out of there?The hotel said yesterday that they believe the new police timelineis incorrect, but would not say anything more, like WHY?There is a lot there for all kinds of speculation. You'd think bynow we'd have all the 911 calls. Instead, we don't even know ifthe hotel made a 911 call following the security guard getting shot.The official story is that he notified hotel security when he wasshot, I think there are tapes of that, but then nothing about whenthe hotel called 911 or if they called at all. We have heard thatthere was at least one 911 call from a guest on the 31st floorwho heard the shooting, presumably that was the first event, theshooting of the guard.The police have made a real mess of this and have done little toclear it up.

It certainly points out the stupidity of saying a silencer would havemade this worse.If firing 200 unsuppressed shots at a security guard wasn't reportedby all the other guests on that floor and did not raise the alarm,then the sound of gun shots is not all that alarming.

And how do you know exactly how many guests called 911 or the hotel to reportthe shots? Clearly the police have said that at least one did call 911,from the 31st floor, alerted by the shots. Not by blood, not by bullets,but by the sound. That call apparently came 6 mins before he opened fireon the concert. Six mins is a long time and that 6 mins, in this case,came from the fact that shots were heard inside the hotel. The evidencefully supports exactly the opposite of what you're claiming. You'reclaiming that as it was, not many calls came in. But enough did, itmay have been the first call to police. Now if it was a limited numberof calls from the sound, that strongly suggests that with significantlyless noise, no call based on shots being heard would have been made.The other

Post by g***@aol.comquestion is why there was no 911 call right then. Everyone has a phonethese days and the guard most certainly had a radio.

There apparently was a call, right then, to 911 from a guest on the31st floor. Whether the hotel called 911, based on the guard, wedon't know. The police and hotel have not said. The police havesaid that the guard did immediately notify hotel security, via radio,they have the tape of that. What is missing is what the hotel didwith that. From their silence, hard as it is to imagine, it's soundinglike maybe they didn't call 911. You'd surely think that if they did,that someone by now would have cleared that up. Time for the reportersto make FOIA requests for the 911 logs and tapes.

What is missing in all of this is where was the warning? (or any realresponse)

They had 6 minutes but as far as we can tell, the first realindication that anything was going on was people at the concert beingshot.You are right that there is still a lot we are not being told and wehave reason to question what they tell us, simply because the storykeeps changing.

Post by TekkieÂ®In practical terms it's very hard to determine where a shooter is because ofthe reverberation off of buildings, etc. Muzzle flash is better. In somecities they have strategically placed listening devices to pinpoint thelocation.

+1Called "shot spotter". The units have to be up 30 ft or so. Ittriangulates the shots near instantly and provides the GPS. (<45seconds)Las Vegas does not have the system. About 90 large metro areas do havethem.<http://www.shotspotter.com/technology>

After watching some new and old videos, it's possible to triangulate withtcurrent videos recorded. I'm hearing two shooters. Someone also brilliantlycalculated times of hits vs shoots. There are two distinct shootersseparated by almost 200 meters. You hear the hits well before the shoots,supersonic flight, but there are two time delays. I also saw flashes from32 floor of Mandalay. Not much heard about the fellow two floors saying ittook 72 minutes for swat to enter.

To enter what? It was widely reported from the very beginning that thepolice did not breech the hotel room door until until about 72 minsafter the attack began. They entered the hotel much earlier, were onthe 31st floor about 18 mins in. That part continues to change.What's shocking to me is that a week in, the police suddenly changedthe timeline and it's not just the minutes. More problematic is thesequence. In the early days, they had the arrival of the hotel securityguard ending the attack. Now they say he arrived for a totally unrelatedalarm about an open door on the floor, that his arrival prompted thefirst shooting, at him. He was wounded, the attack on the crowd started6 mins later. I can understand how timelines need to be adjusted formins, but how could the whole sequence be wrong for a week? Where hasthis guard been? You;d think he'd be calling police, saying hey, theway you're telling it is all wrong.Also troubling,What are the odds of an unrelated door open alarm occurring at the same time?It's been reported that Paddock fired 200 rounds through the door atthe security guard and that he had cameras installed in the hall so hecould see the hall outside. The security guard heard drilling comingfrom the room, he went to see what it was about. Paddock was wellprepared, well armed, could see the guy in the hall, why didn't hejust answer the door and kill him? Seems far more certain than shootingthrough the door. And if you were firing through the door, you'dthink you'd act like you were answering the door, so the guard wouldbe right outside.The guard was shot in the leg, yet the police say he was still on the32 floor when an building engineer found him. Wouldn't you crawlthe hell out of there?The hotel said yesterday that they believe the new police timelineis incorrect, but would not say anything more, like WHY?There is a lot there for all kinds of speculation. You'd think bynow we'd have all the 911 calls. Instead, we don't even know ifthe hotel made a 911 call following the security guard getting shot.The official story is that he notified hotel security when he wasshot, I think there are tapes of that, but then nothing about whenthe hotel called 911 or if they called at all. We have heard thatthere was at least one 911 call from a guest on the 31st floorwho heard the shooting, presumably that was the first event, theshooting of the guard.The police have made a real mess of this and have done little toclear it up.

It certainly points out the stupidity of saying a silencer would havemade this worse.If firing 200 unsuppressed shots at a security guard wasn't reportedby all the other guests on that floor and did not raise the alarm,then the sound of gun shots is not all that alarming.

And how do you know exactly how many guests called 911 or the hotel to reportthe shots? Clearly the police have said that at least one did call 911,from the 31st floor, alerted by the shots. Not by blood, not by bullets,but by the sound. That call apparently came 6 mins before he opened fireon the concert. Six mins is a long time and that 6 mins, in this case,came from the fact that shots were heard inside the hotel. The evidencefully supports exactly the opposite of what you're claiming. You'reclaiming that as it was, not many calls came in. But enough did, itmay have been the first call to police. Now if it was a limited numberof calls from the sound, that strongly suggests that with significantlyless noise, no call based on shots being heard would have been made.The other

Post by g***@aol.comquestion is why there was no 911 call right then. Everyone has a phonethese days and the guard most certainly had a radio.

There apparently was a call, right then, to 911 from a guest on the31st floor. Whether the hotel called 911, based on the guard, wedon't know. The police and hotel have not said. The police havesaid that the guard did immediately notify hotel security, via radio,they have the tape of that. What is missing is what the hotel didwith that. From their silence, hard as it is to imagine, it's soundinglike maybe they didn't call 911. You'd surely think that if they did,that someone by now would have cleared that up. Time for the reportersto make FOIA requests for the 911 logs and tapes.

Post by g***@aol.comI agree something stinks here. It is not surprising that we get somany whacky conspiracy theories. I hope George Bush and Dick Cheneyhave good alibis ;-)

I also would think someone walking around outside would hear windowbreakage or It hitting below. Speculation about suicide alarms on allwindows.

Post by TekkieÂ®In practical terms it's very hard to determine where a shooter is because ofthe reverberation off of buildings, etc. Muzzle flash is better. In somecities they have strategically placed listening devices to pinpoint thelocation.

+1Called "shot spotter". The units have to be up 30 ft or so. Ittriangulates the shots near instantly and provides the GPS. (<45seconds)Las Vegas does not have the system. About 90 large metro areas do havethem.<http://www.shotspotter.com/technology>

After watching some new and old videos, it's possible to triangulate withtcurrent videos recorded. I'm hearing two shooters. Someone also brilliantlycalculated times of hits vs shoots. There are two distinct shootersseparated by almost 200 meters. You hear the hits well before the shoots,supersonic flight, but there are two time delays. I also saw flashes from32 floor of Mandalay. Not much heard about the fellow two floors saying ittook 72 minutes for swat to enter.

To enter what? It was widely reported from the very beginning that thepolice did not breech the hotel room door until until about 72 minsafter the attack began. They entered the hotel much earlier, were onthe 31st floor about 18 mins in. That part continues to change.What's shocking to me is that a week in, the police suddenly changedthe timeline and it's not just the minutes. More problematic is thesequence. In the early days, they had the arrival of the hotel securityguard ending the attack. Now they say he arrived for a totally unrelatedalarm about an open door on the floor, that his arrival prompted thefirst shooting, at him. He was wounded, the attack on the crowd started6 mins later. I can understand how timelines need to be adjusted formins, but how could the whole sequence be wrong for a week? Where hasthis guard been? You;d think he'd be calling police, saying hey, theway you're telling it is all wrong.Also troubling,What are the odds of an unrelated door open alarm occurring at the same time?It's been reported that Paddock fired 200 rounds through the door atthe security guard and that he had cameras installed in the hall so hecould see the hall outside. The security guard heard drilling comingfrom the room, he went to see what it was about. Paddock was wellprepared, well armed, could see the guy in the hall, why didn't hejust answer the door and kill him? Seems far more certain than shootingthrough the door. And if you were firing through the door, you'dthink you'd act like you were answering the door, so the guard wouldbe right outside.The guard was shot in the leg, yet the police say he was still on the32 floor when an building engineer found him. Wouldn't you crawlthe hell out of there?The hotel said yesterday that they believe the new police timelineis incorrect, but would not say anything more, like WHY?There is a lot there for all kinds of speculation. You'd think bynow we'd have all the 911 calls. Instead, we don't even know ifthe hotel made a 911 call following the security guard getting shot.The official story is that he notified hotel security when he wasshot, I think there are tapes of that, but then nothing about whenthe hotel called 911 or if they called at all. We have heard thatthere was at least one 911 call from a guest on the 31st floorwho heard the shooting, presumably that was the first event, theshooting of the guard.The police have made a real mess of this and have done little toclear it up.

It certainly points out the stupidity of saying a silencer would havemade this worse.If firing 200 unsuppressed shots at a security guard wasn't reportedby all the other guests on that floor and did not raise the alarm,then the sound of gun shots is not all that alarming. The otherquestion is why there was no 911 call right then. Everyone has a phonethese days and the guard most certainly had a radio.I agree something stinks here. It is not surprising that we get somany whacky conspiracy theories. I hope George Bush and Dick Cheneyhave good alibis ;-)

The guy two floors down was calling everyone, and complained about the 72minute delay. There were people up top outside in bar.

Post by TekkieÂ®In practical terms it's very hard to determine where a shooter is because ofthe reverberation off of buildings, etc. Muzzle flash is better. In somecities they have strategically placed listening devices to pinpoint thelocation.

+1Called "shot spotter". The units have to be up 30 ft or so. Ittriangulates the shots near instantly and provides the GPS. (<45seconds)Las Vegas does not have the system. About 90 large metro areas do havethem.<http://www.shotspotter.com/technology>

After watching some new and old videos, it's possible to triangulate withtcurrent videos recorded. I'm hearing two shooters. Someone also brilliantlycalculated times of hits vs shoots. There are two distinct shootersseparated by almost 200 meters. You hear the hits well before the shoots,supersonic flight, but there are two time delays. I also saw flashes from32 floor of Mandalay. Not much heard about the fellow two floors saying ittook 72 minutes for swat to enter.

To enter what? It was widely reported from the very beginning that thepolice did not breech the hotel room door until until about 72 minsafter the attack began. They entered the hotel much earlier, were onthe 31st floor about 18 mins in. That part continues to change.What's shocking to me is that a week in, the police suddenly changedthe timeline and it's not just the minutes. More problematic is thesequence. In the early days, they had the arrival of the hotel securityguard ending the attack. Now they say he arrived for a totally unrelatedalarm about an open door on the floor, that his arrival prompted thefirst shooting, at him. He was wounded, the attack on the crowd started6 mins later. I can understand how timelines need to be adjusted formins, but how could the whole sequence be wrong for a week? Where hasthis guard been? You;d think he'd be calling police, saying hey, theway you're telling it is all wrong.Also troubling,What are the odds of an unrelated door open alarm occurring at the same time?It's been reported that Paddock fired 200 rounds through the door atthe security guard and that he had cameras installed in the hall so hecould see the hall outside. The security guard heard drilling comingfrom the room, he went to see what it was about. Paddock was wellprepared, well armed, could see the guy in the hall, why didn't hejust answer the door and kill him? Seems far more certain than shootingthrough the door. And if you were firing through the door, you'dthink you'd act like you were answering the door, so the guard wouldbe right outside.The guard was shot in the leg, yet the police say he was still on the32 floor when an building engineer found him. Wouldn't you crawlthe hell out of there?The hotel said yesterday that they believe the new police timelineis incorrect, but would not say anything more, like WHY?There is a lot there for all kinds of speculation. You'd think bynow we'd have all the 911 calls. Instead, we don't even know ifthe hotel made a 911 call following the security guard getting shot.The official story is that he notified hotel security when he wasshot, I think there are tapes of that, but then nothing about whenthe hotel called 911 or if they called at all. We have heard thatthere was at least one 911 call from a guest on the 31st floorwho heard the shooting, presumably that was the first event, theshooting of the guard.The police have made a real mess of this and have done little toclear it up.

It certainly points out the stupidity of saying a silencer would havemade this worse.If firing 200 unsuppressed shots at a security guard wasn't reportedby all the other guests on that floor and did not raise the alarm,then the sound of gun shots is not all that alarming. The otherquestion is why there was no 911 call right then. Everyone has a phonethese days and the guard most certainly had a radio.I agree something stinks here. It is not surprising that we get somany whacky conspiracy theories. I hope George Bush and Dick Cheneyhave good alibis ;-)

The guy two floors down was calling everyone, and complained about the 72minute delay. There were people up top outside in bar.Greg

What 72 min delay? No matter which timeline you believe is correct,the shooting only lasted ~18 mins. It took about 72 mins from thetime of the first shot to police blowing the door on his hotel room,but the shooting was over in 18 mins tops, so I don't see why anyone2 floors down would be complaining about a 72 min delay. Also, it'spretty well documented that police were on the 31st floor, the sourceof at least one 911 call, about 12 - 18 mins after the first shot,depending on which timeline you believe.

Post by trader_4What 72 min delay? No matter which timeline you believe is correct,the shooting only lasted ~18 mins. It took about 72 mins from thetime of the first shot to police blowing the door on his hotel room,but the shooting was over in 18 mins tops, so I don't see why anyone2 floors down would be complaining about a 72 min delay. Also, it'spretty well documented that police were on the 31st floor, the sourceof at least one 911 call, about 12 - 18 mins after the first shot,depending on which timeline you believe.

At this point, I am not sure what to believe. For something wherethere are so many recorders going and so much private surveillancegoing on, I am surprised we are having so much confusion. I reallybelieved casino hotels had cameras everywhere, just to stop those hightech fraud capers. Police radio traffic is recorded along with 911.Maybe they really don't have clocks in Vegas.

Post by trader_4What 72 min delay? No matter which timeline you believe is correct,the shooting only lasted ~18 mins. It took about 72 mins from thetime of the first shot to police blowing the door on his hotel room,but the shooting was over in 18 mins tops, so I don't see why anyone2 floors down would be complaining about a 72 min delay. Also, it'spretty well documented that police were on the 31st floor, the sourceof at least one 911 call, about 12 - 18 mins after the first shot,depending on which timeline you believe.

At this point, I am not sure what to believe. For something wherethere are so many recorders going and so much private surveillancegoing on, I am surprised we are having so much confusion. I reallybelieved casino hotels had cameras everywhere, just to stop those hightech fraud capers. Police radio traffic is recorded along with 911.Maybe they really don't have clocks in Vegas.

+1

It really is inexcusable. LV has more cameras per sq ft than anywherein the world, don't they? Surely that hotel has cameras showing thepolice entering, going to the elevator, probably in the halls too.There was an initial alarm tripped by a door open on the 32nd floor,an event the police say had nothing to do with the shooter. Thesecurity system would log that event with a time. Even my home systemdoes that. Where are the 911 call tapes, which would be time stamped?This really is beyond stupid. You had the police and FBI combingthe concert grounds, inside the room, doing all kinds of mock ups ofshooting angles, recovering bullets, yet two weeks later, they stillcan't put together and accurate and credible time line.

Post by trader_4What 72 min delay? No matter which timeline you believe is correct,the shooting only lasted ~18 mins. It took about 72 mins from thetime of the first shot to police blowing the door on his hotel room,but the shooting was over in 18 mins tops, so I don't see why anyone2 floors down would be complaining about a 72 min delay. Also, it'spretty well documented that police were on the 31st floor, the sourceof at least one 911 call, about 12 - 18 mins after the first shot,depending on which timeline you believe.

At this point, I am not sure what to believe. For something wherethere are so many recorders going and so much private surveillancegoing on, I am surprised we are having so much confusion. I reallybelieved casino hotels had cameras everywhere, just to stop those hightech fraud capers. Police radio traffic is recorded along with 911.Maybe they really don't have clocks in Vegas.

They came out with their third time line today. I think you're right. Ifthey wanted to convince the world they screwed up and to spawn a bunchof conspiracy theories they did a heck of a job.

Time lines get adjusted. I've done it myself as details are known. OurSheriff is not prone to knee-jerk, arm-chair suppositions. He is verydetail oriented. I voted for him. He did what he said he would do.Eliminated the handgun permit (blue cards) and spent money elsewhere.

<http://video.foxnews.com/v/5609606909001/?playlist_id=2114913880001#sp=show-clips>Time lines get adjusted. I've done it myself as details are known. OurSheriff is not prone to knee-jerk, arm-chair suppositions. He is verydetail oriented. I voted for him. He did what he said he would do.Eliminated the handgun permit (blue cards) and spent money elsewhere.

People that are ignorant of emergency situations often fall prey to this.The sense of it perhaps can be found if one has fallen, gotten into a carcrash, victim of a crime, fallen ill suddenly, etc. WTF just happened & howdid I end up here (where am I) and when...

<http://video.foxnews.com/v/5609606909001/?playlist_id=2114913880001#sp=show-clips>Time lines get adjusted. I've done it myself as details are known. OurSheriff is not prone to knee-jerk, arm-chair suppositions. He is verydetail oriented. I voted for him. He did what he said he would do.Eliminated the handgun permit (blue cards) and spent money elsewhere.

People that are ignorant of emergency situations often fall prey to this.The sense of it perhaps can be found if one has fallen, gotten into a carcrash, victim of a crime, fallen ill suddenly, etc. WTF just happened & howdid I end up here (where am I) and when...

Right. It takes time to collect everything, sort it all out and makean inference as to what happened. BTDT in emergencies and after.

LVMPD has hundreds of cameras to view, thousands of pieces of evidenceto process, etc. to go through for a complete, factual, evidentiary,final report.

"get the ducks in a row" --

This case will be an example for all similar future investigationevents for police. Don't screw the pouch...

<http://video.foxnews.com/v/5609606909001/?playlist_id=2114913880001#sp=show-clips>Time lines get adjusted. I've done it myself as details are known. OurSheriff is not prone to knee-jerk, arm-chair suppositions. He is verydetail oriented. I voted for him. He did what he said he would do.Eliminated the handgun permit (blue cards) and spent money elsewhere.

People that are ignorant of emergency situations often fall prey to this.The sense of it perhaps can be found if one has fallen, gotten into a carcrash, victim of a crime, fallen ill suddenly, etc. WTF just happened & howdid I end up here (where am I) and when...

Right. It takes time to collect everything, sort it all out and makean inference as to what happened. BTDT in emergencies and after.LVMPD has hundreds of cameras to view, thousands of pieces of evidenceto process, etc. to go through for a complete, factual, evidentiary,final report."get the ducks in a row" --This case will be an example for all similar future investigationevents for police. Don't screw the pouch...

The most bizarre part is not the actual minute counts, it's thatthe sequence was so wrong for a week. For a week the police saidthat the arrival of the security guard was at the end of the 11 minshooting, implying that the guard's arrival may have ended it,etc. Then it turns out he showed up before any shots were firedand they said that it was actually 6 mins from him being shotto when the shooter opened fire on the crowd.You would think that would be very hard to get wrong for a weekwhether the guard showed up 6 mins before the shooting or atthe end of it. And then the hotel said there was no 6 mins gapand finally the police agree. So, as of now, AFAIK, the guardshowed up, got shot, and within a minute the shooter opened fireon the crowd.

Post by g***@aol.comThe people there said they did not realize they were being shot atuntil people started falling.

The shots were very audible in the cell phone videos shot from the concert.

There was not a 110 dB band playing and thousands of people cheeringthen tho.

The band was playing, IIRC, at the time the shots started in one of thevideos I saw.

Not the ones I saw. People were running around in panic.

In practical terms it's very hard to determine where a shooter is because ofthe reverberation off of buildings, etc. Muzzle flash is better. In somecities they have strategically placed listening devices to pinpoint thelocation.

When you hear the time line in Vegas, they figured out where this guywas right away. A security guard was knocking on his door in about 10minutes and the cops were there in 11. The shooting stopped rightafter he put a couple hundred rounds through the door at the securityguard.For all extents and purposes it was over then. Whether he shot himselfright then or if he waited until they breached the door we may neverknow.My guess is he saw a uniform and assumed the cops were on him with thesecurity guard. Rumor is the smoke detector went off and that was whythe guard went up there.That $10 an hour guard is the one who stopped the carnage tho.

Post by g***@aol.comWhen you hear the time line in Vegas, they figured out where this guywas right away. A security guard was knocking on his door in about 10minutes and the cops were there in 11. The shooting stopped rightafter he put a couple hundred rounds through the door at the securityguard.For all extents and purposes it was over then. Whether he shot himselfright then or if he waited until they breached the door we may neverknow.My guess is he saw a uniform and assumed the cops were on him with thesecurity guard. Rumor is the smoke detector went off and that was whythe guard went up there.That $10 an hour guard is the one who stopped the carnage tho.

Time line:<https://www.reviewjournal.com/local/the-strip/minute-by-minute-breakdown-of-las-vegas-strip-shooting-timeline/>

That "guard" makes more than $10 and hour. Well trained and might usea little more force. Vegas hires their "guards" by the pound. Theyain't stiffs sitting around in a bank.

Post by g***@aol.comWhen you hear the time line in Vegas, they figured out where this guywas right away. A security guard was knocking on his door in about 10minutes and the cops were there in 11. The shooting stopped rightafter he put a couple hundred rounds through the door at the securityguard.For all extents and purposes it was over then. Whether he shot himselfright then or if he waited until they breached the door we may neverknow.My guess is he saw a uniform and assumed the cops were on him with thesecurity guard. Rumor is the smoke detector went off and that was whythe guard went up there.That $10 an hour guard is the one who stopped the carnage tho.

<https://www.reviewjournal.com/local/the-strip/minute-by-minute-breakdown-of-las-vegas-strip-shooting-timeline/>That "guard" makes more than $10 and hour. Well trained and might usea little more force. Vegas hires their "guards" by the pound. Theyain't stiffs sitting around in a bank.

Him showing up outside the door seems to be the thing that stopped theshooting, after he took fire.

Post by g***@aol.comWhen you hear the time line in Vegas, they figured out where this guywas right away. A security guard was knocking on his door in about 10minutes and the cops were there in 11. The shooting stopped rightafter he put a couple hundred rounds through the door at the securityguard.For all extents and purposes it was over then. Whether he shot himselfright then or if he waited until they breached the door we may neverknow.My guess is he saw a uniform and assumed the cops were on him with thesecurity guard. Rumor is the smoke detector went off and that was whythe guard went up there.That $10 an hour guard is the one who stopped the carnage tho.

<https://www.reviewjournal.com/local/the-strip/minute-by-minute-breakdown-of-las-vegas-strip-shooting-timeline/>That "guard" makes more than $10 and hour. Well trained and might usea little more force. Vegas hires their "guards" by the pound. Theyain't stiffs sitting around in a bank.

Him showing up outside the door seems to be the thing that stopped theshooting, after he took fire.

I'm sure there were tense moments but the drama told by the breachingteam seems a little over the top. The service cart might be an IED.There might be 50 jihadis in the room. And that's after nothing has beenstirring, not even a mouse for about an hour.

Post by g***@aol.comHim showing up outside the door seems to be the thing that stopped theshooting, after he took fire.

I'm sure there were tense moments but the drama told by the breachingteam seems a little over the top. The service cart might be an IED.There might be 50 jihadis in the room. And that's after nothing has beenstirring, not even a mouse for about an hour.

Now they are changing the time line and saying the guard was shot 6minutes before the attack on the crowd. If that is true it opens upmore questions. How can someone fire hundreds of shots in a hotelwithout attracting more attention than seems to be brought to bear?

Post by g***@aol.comNow they are changing the time line and saying the guard was shot 6minutes before the attack on the crowd. If that is true it opens upmore questions. How can someone fire hundreds of shots in a hotelwithout attracting more attention than seems to be brought to bear?

The SWAT team also said they were delayed because Paddock jammed thedoors to the 32nd floor. So did the security guard take the elevator?One time line also said there was a LEO on the 32nd floor who was toldto stand down until the SWAT team showed up. That took about an hour.

They really needed a press officer to feed out a coherent narrative ifthey didn't want to provide material for a couple of years' worth ofconspiracy theories.

Post by g***@aol.comNow they are changing the time line and saying the guard was shot 6minutes before the attack on the crowd. If that is true it opens upmore questions. How can someone fire hundreds of shots in a hotelwithout attracting more attention than seems to be brought to bear?

The SWAT team also said they were delayed because Paddock jammed thedoors to the 32nd floor. So did the security guard take the elevator?One time line also said there was a LEO on the 32nd floor who was toldto stand down until the SWAT team showed up. That took about an hour.They really needed a press officer to feed out a coherent narrative ifthey didn't want to provide material for a couple of years' worth ofconspiracy theories.

I am sure the conspiracy guys are already out there with all sorts oftheories.

Post by g***@aol.comHim showing up outside the door seems to be the thing that stopped theshooting, after he took fire.

I'm sure there were tense moments but the drama told by the breachingteam seems a little over the top. The service cart might be an IED.There might be 50 jihadis in the room. And that's after nothing has beenstirring, not even a mouse for about an hour.

Now they are changing the time line and saying the guard was shot 6minutes before the attack on the crowd. If that is true it opens upmore questions. How can someone fire hundreds of shots in a hotelwithout attracting more attention than seems to be brought to bear?

I think the answer is that they can't/didn't. It's being reported thatPaddock fired 200 rounds at the security guard. Whatever the number,it's likely that's what resulted in the call to 911 from someone onthe 31st floor, that started the response by police. Which also explainshow they were there so quickly relative to the time he opened fire onthe crowd. They had an extra 6 mins.

What I can't understand is how the timeline could be this messed upa week into the investigation. If it was just people guessing whattime, I can see how the time could easily be off by a lot more than6 mins. It's not the time that's so shocking, it's that it changesthe whole sequence and now there would have been an initial periodof big gunfire inside the hotel, followed by 6 mins of silence,then the main event. How this only comes out now, IDK. The securityguard for example, must have known the whole thing was being toldwrong, that the shooting didn't end when he got there, instead thefirst rounds were fired at him. And what was Paddock doing for thosenew 6 mins? You'd think he knew they were on to him, that he wouldhave immediately gone to fire on the crowd. It took 6 mins to breakwindows? IDK. You're right about the other comment, that thisjust fuels the conspiracy nuts. I don't have a lot of confidenceat this point in the police investigation. And where is the herosecurity guard? You'd think he'd be interviewed, be on the morningtalk shows, etc.

Post by g***@aol.comHim showing up outside the door seems to be the thing that stopped theshooting, after he took fire.

I'm sure there were tense moments but the drama told by the breachingteam seems a little over the top. The service cart might be an IED.There might be 50 jihadis in the room. And that's after nothing has beenstirring, not even a mouse for about an hour.

Now they are changing the time line and saying the guard was shot 6minutes before the attack on the crowd. If that is true it opens upmore questions. How can someone fire hundreds of shots in a hotelwithout attracting more attention than seems to be brought to bear?

I think the answer is that they can't/didn't. It's being reported thatPaddock fired 200 rounds at the security guard. Whatever the number,it's likely that's what resulted in the call to 911 from someone onthe 31st floor, that started the response by police. Which also explainshow they were there so quickly relative to the time he opened fire onthe crowd. They had an extra 6 mins.What I can't understand is how the timeline could be this messed upa week into the investigation. If it was just people guessing whattime, I can see how the time could easily be off by a lot more than6 mins. It's not the time that's so shocking, it's that it changesthe whole sequence and now there would have been an initial periodof big gunfire inside the hotel, followed by 6 mins of silence,then the main event. How this only comes out now, IDK. The securityguard for example, must have known the whole thing was being toldwrong, that the shooting didn't end when he got there, instead thefirst rounds were fired at him. And what was Paddock doing for thosenew 6 mins? You'd think he knew they were on to him, that he wouldhave immediately gone to fire on the crowd. It took 6 mins to breakwindows? IDK. You're right about the other comment, that thisjust fuels the conspiracy nuts. I don't have a lot of confidenceat this point in the police investigation. And where is the herosecurity guard? You'd think he'd be interviewed, be on the morningtalk shows, etc.

Haven't you heard, this was a BATF gun runner who was running a stingon ISIS, they found out, shot him, shot all the people and got away. Iread it on the internet, it must be true. ;-)

BTW if they want the bump stock bill, attach it to the hearingprotection act, swapping bump stocks for suppressors in NFA34,regulate suppressors like firearms and move on.

Post by g***@aol.comThe people there said they did not realize they were being shot atuntil people started falling.

The shots were very audible in the cell phone videos shot from the concert.

There was not a 110 dB band playing and thousands of people cheeringthen tho.

The band was playing, IIRC, at the time the shots started in one of thevideos I saw.

Not the ones I saw. People were running around in panic.

In practical terms it's very hard to determine where a shooter is because ofthe reverberation off of buildings, etc. Muzzle flash is better. In somecities they have strategically placed listening devices to pinpoint thelocation.

When you hear the time line in Vegas, they figured out where this guywas right away. A security guard was knocking on his door in about 10minutes and the cops were there in 11. The shooting stopped rightafter he put a couple hundred rounds through the door at the securityguard.For all extents and purposes it was over then. Whether he shot himselfright then or if he waited until they breached the door we may neverknow.

IDK why we don't know. Like you say cops were there 11 minutes or sointo it, about the time the shooting ended. Either they heard anothersingle shot later, or they didn't. Even if he shot himself as theyfirst arrived, you'd think they would have heard the auto fire endand then a single shot. Since we haven't heard anything, maybe ithappened in a brief period between when the security guy got shot,retreated and when the cops arrived. But still you'd think somebodywhether near the door, inside the hotel, outside, would have heardthat final single shot and be talking about it. It is a bit weird.