From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 1 04:50:16 1996
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Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 07:37:56 -0500
From: Wes Morgan
Message-Id: <199604011237.HAA06010@skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu>
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Subject: Cyber Promotions
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
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>> Here is his new info:
>> Administrative Contact:
>> Wallace, Sanford (SW236) postmaster@PROMO-ENT.COM
>> 215-289-4610
>
>> Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
>> Wallace, Sanford (SW430) Wallace@CYBER-PROMO.COM
>> (800) 650-9110
>
>Did anyone else notice how quickly he changed his toll-free phone
>number??? I'm curious to know how many give old Sanford a ring.
He didn't change the 800 number - I just called it. He probably
thinks that deleting it from Internic's database will cut down
on his calls...
--Wes
From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 1 09:50:22 1996
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From: "Brad Knowles"
Message-Id: <9604011234.ZM24335@azathoth.ops.aol.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 12:34:45 -0500
Reply-To: BKnowles@aol.net
Organization: America Online, Inc.
X-Telephone: (703) 453-4148
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To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com
Subject: Review update of comp.mail.sendmail FAQ?
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Folks,
I'm not subscribed to your list (yet), but wanted to post this
note and ask those of you who might be interested to take a look at
the updated version of the comp.mail.sendmail FAQ.
The changes are massive enough that I'll have to get it
re-approved by the news.answers moderators at MIT, but in the
meanwhile, I figure I should at least have outside folks look at it
and comment on both content and form (hopefully, you'd be helping me
more with the content, while the FAQ-Maintainers list would be helping
me with the form).
If you're interested & willing, the updated version can be found
at:
If you're interested in looking at what little other stuff I've
got in support of the FAQ, see .
Thanks!
--
Brad Knowles MIME/PGP: BKnowles@aol.net
Mail Systems Administrator
for America Online, Inc. Ph: (703) 453-4148
PGP keys available from pgp-public-keys@pgp.ai.mit.edu
From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 1 11:36:14 1996
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Date: Mon, 01 Apr 1996 14:04:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Paul S. Bentivegna -- Technology Coodinator"
Subject: Perl for Solaris
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Cc: BENTIVEGNA@LACA.OHIO.GOV
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List managers/masters:
Sorry if this is too long or too basic but I wanted to give as many facts as I
could. Thanks in advance for all you help.
I am in the process of setting up a majordomo listserver. I think that I have
everything but perl in place. I have a base copy of perl ( just the executable
file ) that I found a while back. I tried to send a message to my majordomo
1.93 server ... echo help | sendmail -v majordomo and I got the error:
Can't locate ctime.pl in @INC at /soft/majordomo/bin/majordomo line 53
and I found in one of the majordomo config/help files:
If you get complaints about being unable to find "ctime.pl", then either
your version of perl is too old, or is not installed properly.
I got a copy of Perl 4.x and tried to compile it under Solaris 2.4 with gcc
but was unsuccessful.
Question 1: Does anyone know where I can get a full binary version of Perl 4.x
for Sparc Solaris 2.4?
---------------------
Can't locate ctime.pl in @INC at /soft/majordomo/bin/majordomo line 53
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I put all of users on the /soft drive ( makes it easy to backup ) and I have
installed my limited copy of Perl as /soft/bin/perl.
Question 2: Will I be able to keep it that way? What kind of problems will I
run into? ( Yes, I think I got all of the references to the
!/usr/local/bin/perl changed to !/soft/bin/perl )
List manager wanna be :-)
Paul S. Bentivegna
Technology Coordinator
Licking County JVS -- Newark, Ohio -- USA
Primary E-Mail: bentivegna@laca.ohio.gov
Secondary E-Mail: paul@jvs.laca.ohio.gov
Web: http://www.jvs.laca.ohio.gov/
FTP: ftp://ftp.jvs.laca.ohio.gov/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
The thought and opinions above are my own. They do not necessarily reflect
those views of my employer or its representatives.
From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 2 12:42:11 1996
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From: PMDAtropos@aol.com
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Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 11:38:48 -0500
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To: meo@schoneal.com
cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov
Subject: Re: Email spammer sues AOL - let's hel AOL fight back
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In a message dated 96-03-31 17:35:36 EST, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov (Henry W.
Miller) writes:
Maybe those of us who have been the recipients of Cyber Promo's
little gifts can give deposition... David, are you listening???
I'm definitely here (though buried under mail and an accumulation of
printouts). Since I am directly involved in the case, I don't know how much I
am permitted to comment on it.
--David
From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 2 17:08:32 1996
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From: "Brad Knowles"
Message-Id: <9604021957.ZM27565@azathoth.ops.aol.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 19:57:04 -0500
In-Reply-To: PMDAtropos@aol.com
"Re: Email spammer sues AOL - let's hel AOL fight back" (Apr 2, 11:38am)
References: <960402113847_183222293@emout08.mail.aol.com>
Reply-To: BKnowles@aol.net
Organization: America Online, Inc.
X-Telephone: (703) 453-4148
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To: meo@schoneal.com
Subject: Re: Email spammer sues AOL - let's hel AOL fight back
Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov
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On Apr 2, 11:38am, PMDAtropos@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 96-03-31 17:35:36 EST, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov (Henry W.
> Miller) writes:
>
> Maybe those of us who have been the recipients of Cyber Promo's
> little gifts can give deposition... David, are you listening???
>
> I'm definitely here (though buried under mail and an accumulation of
> printouts). Since I am directly involved in the case, I don't know how much I
> am permitted to comment on it.
I'm not aware of what's been said publicly in the press on this
subject. Does anyone have an URL or other directions to what's been
said so far?
--
Brad Knowles MIME/PGP: BKnowles@aol.net
Mail Systems Administrator
for America Online, Inc. Ph: (703) 453-4148
PGP keys available from pgp-public-keys@pgp.ai.mit.edu
From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 2 18:38:29 1996
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From: "Brad Knowles"
Message-Id: <9604022133.ZM28017@azathoth.ops.aol.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 21:33:16 -0500
In-Reply-To: Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman)
"Re: Email spammer sues AOL" (Mar 29, 12:19pm)
References:
Reply-To: BKnowles@aol.net
Organization: America Online, Inc.
X-Telephone: (703) 453-4148
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To: Brent Chapman ,
john.mclaughlin@citicorp.com (John S. McLaughlin [Citibank NAGF])
Subject: Re: Email spammer sues AOL
Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
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On Mar 29, 12:19pm, Brent Chapman wrote:
> Knowing the folks at UUNET and how carefully and successfully they run
> their mail systems, I seriously doubt that there's anything AOL could do
> that would cause those systems to crash; particularly not something as
> simple as sending a big message.
I found the whole document at
.
I think that's about all I am likely to be allowed to say on this
subject. But thanks for the pointers!
And if anyone else has any other references on this subject
(either in the news, usenet newsgroups, mailing lists, etc...), I'd
love to hear about them. Especially if you could point me at an
archive so that I could get more context for the kinds of comments
being made.
--
Brad Knowles MIME/PGP: BKnowles@aol.net
Mail Systems Administrator
for America Online, Inc. Ph: (703) 453-4148
PGP keys available from pgp-public-keys@pgp.ai.mit.edu
From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 2 19:08:14 1996
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Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 04:58:12 +0200
From: Eric Thomas
Subject: Re: Email spammer sues AOL
To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 2 Apr 1996 21:33:16 -0500 from
list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
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What I don't understand with this lawsuit is what exactly is being
alleged, in concrete technical terms. Somehow I fail to see how AOL could
update the return address of messages sent by Cyber Promo unless Cyber
Promo was posting them from AOL, in which case they should have signed
the TOS agreement and their account would have been cut off without much
room for a lawsuit. So I have to assume that these bounces were for
recipients *at* AOL that were out of disk space or the like? But then, in
this case the messages would normally have bounced back to Cyber Promo
and crashed *their* machine.
I think it says a lot when a spammer takes an ISP to court and the only
descriptions you can find are in lawyerese with all the important details
removed. It looks like the goal is to set a legal precedent in favour of
spamming, and the less factual information there is, the more likely this
is to happen.
Eric
From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 3 21:57:39 1996
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Message-Id:
From: james@sagarmatha.com (James C. Armstrong)
Subject: Denial of Service Attack
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 20:24:03 -0800 (PST)
Cc: spam@zorch.sf-bay.org
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It looks like one of my mailing lists is undergoing a possible
denial of service attack. Has anyone else seen such an attack from
this site, (Tommy_Oden@ccsmtp.pharmacia.se) or Clarence Verdin?
It looks like they've forwarded a bounce message with a multi-megabyte
file (10 Mbytes arrived here in one mail message so far).
According to unnamed sources, system admin is alleged to have written
=>
=> >From Tommy_Oden@ccsmtp.pharmacia.se Wed Apr 3 18:46:44 1996
=> Received: from gatekeeper.pharmacia.se by netcomsv.netcom.com with SMTP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1)
=> id SAA22611; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 18:16:04 -0800
=> Received: from mailgate.pharmacia.se by gatekeeper.pharmacia.se; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/22Jan96/sal)
=> id AA03354; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 04:12:05 +0200
=> Received: by mailgate.pharmacia.se (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3/sal-950131)
=> id AA13474; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 04:14:08 +0200
=> Received: from ccMail by ccsmtp.pharmacia.se (SMTPLINK V2.10.08)
=> id 9603048285.AA828587537; Thu, 04 Apr 96 04:12:17 MET
=> Date: Thu, 04 Apr 96 04:12:17 MET
=> From: Tommy_Oden@ccsmtp.pharmacia.se (ccMail SMTPLINK)
=> Message-Id: <9603048285.AA828587537@ccsmtp.pharmacia.se>
=> To:
=> Subject: ccMail SMTPLINK Undeliverable Message
=>
=> Message too big
=>
=> Original text follows
=> ----------------------------------------------
=> Received: from gatekeeper.pharmacia.se by ccsmtp.pharmacia.se (SMTPLINK V2.10.08)
=> ; Thu, 04 Apr 96 04:08:11 MET
=> Return-Path:
=> Received: by gatekeeper.pharmacia.se; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/22Jan96/sal)
=> id AA27108; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 03:38:56 +0200
=> Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 03:38:56 +0200
=> From: Mail Delivery Subsystem
=> Subject: Returned mail: Service unavailable
=> Message-Id: <9604040138.AA27108@gatekeeper.pharmacia.se>
=> To: Tommy_Oden@ccsmtp.pharmacia.se
=>
=> ----- Transcript of session follows -----
=> While talking to mail.uu.net:
=> >>> DATA
=> <<< 552 Message exceeds maximum fixed size (2000000)
=> 554 ... Service unavailable
=>
=> ----- Unsent message follows -----
=> Received: from mailgate.pharmacia.se by gatekeeper.pharmacia.se; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/22Jan96/sal)
=> id AA00164; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 03:38:56 +0200
=> Received: by mailgate.pharmacia.se (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3/sal-950131)
=> id AA13247; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 03:41:02 +0200
=> Received: from ccMail by ccsmtp.pharmacia.se (SMTPLINK V2.10.08)
=> id 9603048285.AA828585552; Thu, 04 Apr 96 03:39:12 MET
=> Date: Thu, 04 Apr 96 03:39:12 MET
=> From: Tommy_Oden@ccsmtp.pharmacia.se (ccMail SMTPLINK)
=> Message-Id: <9603048285.AA828585552@ccsmtp.pharmacia.se>
=> To:
=> Subject: ccMail SMTPLINK Undeliverable Message
=>
=> Message too big
=>
=> Original text follows
=> ----------------------------------------------
=> Received: from mailgate.pharmacia.se by ccsmtp.pharmacia.se (SMTPLINK V2.10.08)
=> ; Thu, 04 Apr 96 03:38:19 MET
=> Return-Path:
=> Received: by mailgate.pharmacia.se (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3/sal-950131)
=> id AA13239; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 03:38:00 +0200
=> Received: from bronze.coil.com by gatekeeper.pharmacia.se; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/22Jan96/sal)
=> id AA25190; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 03:28:20 +0200
=> Received: from [198.4.94.242] (cmh42.coil.com [198.4.94.242]) by bronze.coil.com (8.6.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA17021 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 19:25:02 -0500
=> Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 19:25:02 -0500
=> Message-Id: <199604040025.TAA17021@bronze.coil.com>
=> Mime-Version: 1.0
=> Content-Type: text/plain
=> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
=> From: verdinc@coil.com
=> To: clarence.verdin@usdub.pharmacia.se
=> X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.00.06.21
=> X-Spry-Attachment: t6.exe
=> X-Spry-Attachment: t6_host.exe
=>
=>
=>
=>
=> From: verdinc@coil.com
=> To: clarence.verdin@usdub.pharmacia.se
=>
=> Here is the latest version of termite from www.pixel.co.uk
=>
=>
=>
=>
=> begin 644 t6.exe
--
James C. Armstrong, Jr. | From hence, ye beauties, undeceived,
james@sagarmatha.com (home) | Know, one false step is ne'er retrieved,
| And be with caution bold.
| Not all that tempts your wandering eyes
| And heedless hearts is lawful prize;
| Nor all that glisters gold.
From list-managers-owner Sat Apr 6 14:17:46 1996
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Date: Sat, 06 Apr 1996 14:56:32 -0700 (MST)
From: "Andrew N. Edmond"
Subject: Majordomo vs. SmartList
In-reply-to:
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Cc: SmartList@Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE, Frostie Sprout
Message-id:
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I will be setting up a mailing list server this month with approximately
40 lists, 50-100 subscribers each (I have a new Pentium Pro 200mhz
dedicated for the service) and I am still, after much research, stuck on a
fence between Majordomo and SmartList.
As I understand it, SmartList is easier on system resources. It has been
told to be that for EVERY message that comes into MajorDomo a new
majordomo is called into memory to handle it, and a new perl program to
handle the scripts.
It has also been told that SmartList only keeps on copy of itself in
memory for each mailing list - regardless of queued messages. With nearly
20000 messages (anticipated) being distributed, calling 20000 majordomos
into memory each day would kill even a Pentium Pro 200mhz system!
How ever - Majordomo is clearly the advance leader in free mailing list
software in it's remote administration features, digest features, and has
much fewer bugs.
I would be willing to make that trade off (SmartList over MajorDomo) if I
could prove that SmartList handled system resources better that Majordomo.
Any thoughts on this?
Andy
.............................................................................
. Andrew Edmond . Children of a future age, .
.. edmond@plains.uwyo.edu ... Reading this indignant page, ..
... University of Wyoming ..... Know that in a former time, ...
.... Botany Department ....... A path to God was thought a crime. ....
.....................VISIONARY PLANTS LIST...................................
From list-managers-owner Sat Apr 6 14:58:21 1996
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Organization: BearHeart Technology Group
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Date: Sat, 06 Apr 1996 16:54:25 -0600
To: "Andrew N. Edmond" , list-managers@greatcircle.com
From: BearHeart / Bill Weinman
Subject: Re: Majordomo vs. SmartList
Cc: SmartList@Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE, Frostie Sprout
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
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At 02:56 pm 4/6/96 -0700, Andrew N. Edmond spake:
>I would be willing to make that trade off (SmartList over MajorDomo) if I
>could prove that SmartList handled system resources better that Majordomo.
>
>Any thoughts on this?
I just moved my mailing list over from an aliased sendmail
list to procmail/SmartList. I was unable to get majordomo working
well at all--it's a major kluge!
I sent out my first mailing last night to a list of 1070 email
addresses and it took less than an hour. With aliased sendmail
alone it took over 8 hours.
SmartMail is very smart. It splits my list up into managable
chunks and spawns multiple copies of sendmail to send it out. It
does preprocessing on the addresses to make sure that sendmail isn't
wasting its time. It handles bounces, and will even unsubscribe
addresses that bounce more than n times.
I like it. But then, I gave up on majordomo before really getting
it running. But I saw the code and concluded that it was too klugey.
BTW, majordomo is written in perl and SmartList is almost all
in well-written C (I've been writing and teaching C for over 10 years).
MHO,
--Bill Weinman
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Author of The CGI Book -- http://www.bearnet.com/cgibook/
| http://www.bearnet.com/ || http://www.weinman.com/wew/
From list-managers-owner Sat Apr 6 16:13:22 1996
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From: brian@ilinx.ilinx.com (Brian J. Murrell)
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 16:07:53 -0800 (PST)
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Reply-To: brian@ilinx.bctel.net
Subject: another attempted magazine spam
X-Mailer: Ishmail 1.2-960125-386
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I stopped yet another attemped magazine spam. I know how small and
"out-of-the-way" my list is, and this is the third time in as many months.
What's up with this?? Is all this magazine subscription spam really coming
from one place, or what??
Why can we not seem to get this guy and shut him down??
Is he just hopping from service provider to service provider?? Is there
any reported incidences of this guy actually getting shutdown in the past??
b.
--
Brian J. Murrell brian@ilinx.com
InterLinx Support Services, Inc. brian@wimsey.com
North Vancouver, B.C. 604 983 UNIX
Platform and Brand Independent UNIX Support - R3.2 - R4 - BSD
From list-managers-owner Sat Apr 6 16:43:20 1996
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To: brian@ilinx.bctel.net
Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Subject: Re: another attempted magazine spam
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 06 Apr 96 16:07:53 PST."
Date: Sat, 06 Apr 96 19:32:37 -0500
From: Mitch Collinsworth
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>I stopped yet another attemped magazine spam.
Please post (as a minimum) the From: and Subject: headers here so those
of us attempting to filter them can add them to our regexp lists (if they
don't match what's already there). Thanks.
-Mitch
From list-managers-owner Sat Apr 6 17:12:56 1996
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From: brian@ilinx.ilinx.com (Brian J. Murrell)
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 16:45:55 -0800 (PST)
To: mkc@graphics.cornell.edu
Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Reply-To: brian@ilinx.bctel.net
Subject: Re[2]: another attempted magazine spam
In-Reply-To: <9604070032.AA13238@toko.graphics.cornell.edu>
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from the quill of Mitch Collinsworth on scroll
<9604070032.AA13238@toko.graphics.cornell.edu>
>
> >I stopped yet another attemped magazine spam.
>
> Please post (as a minimum) the From: and Subject: headers here so those
> of us attempting to filter them can add them to our regexp lists (if they
> don't match what's already there). Thanks.
Sorry, headers of the recent at the end of this message.
If people here are interested in getting early notice of spams, why don't
we set up a "closed subscription, only members can post" mailing list to
which spam mail can be bounced. The mailing list processor can then filter
out all but a few headers (which can be decided on by the subscription
base), check for duplication, and then distribute. If the list-manager
were resourceful enough he/she could autoprocess the distribution from the
list to add the desired information to her/his kill list.
I think that might cut down on the "spam of the hour" posts to this list as
well.
Thots??
The most recent magazine spam headers follow (I don't think any of us need
to see the body yet again - if you do, it'll be coming to a mailing list
near you soon).
b.
----------------------- cut --------------------------------
>From imcon.ilinx.com!uni.durban.ac.za!nicola.du.plessis Sat Apr 6
14:06:48 1996
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Approved: moderator
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Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 12:45:33 +0200
To: nicola.du.plessis@uni.durban.ac.za
From: nicola.du.plessis@uni.durban.ac.za,
dfgeinlink22@vax1.vax.joburg.org.za,
chiu@cap.town.ac.za, ronnie@jhft.co.za, ellen@tci.co.za,
samuels@uni.transvaal.ac.za, c.en@birmingham.org.za,
chir@natal.co.za,
wrend@rfg1.co.za, susans@uni.swazilan.ac.za,
gregor@southampton.org.za,
ellen@plymouth.ac.za, gfos@fresno.co.za, tr.ns@uni.london.ac.za,
jimt@uni.london.ac.za, fharile@plymouth.org.za,
relson@c.ilds.co.za,
nels@hall.co.za, sarap@ruv4.co.za,
gspelling@earthlite.co.za (Nicola du Plessis, President of the
South Africa Association of
University Students and the Board of Directors of the South Africa
Association of University Students)
Subject: ---> FREE 1 yr. Magazine Sub sent worldwide- 290+ Popular USA
Titles
--
Brian J. Murrell brian@ilinx.com
InterLinx Support Services, Inc. brian@wimsey.com
North Vancouver, B.C. 604 983 UNIX
Platform and Brand Independent UNIX Support - R3.2 - R4 - BSD
From list-managers-owner Sat Apr 6 17:47:57 1996
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Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 20:25:57 -0500 (EST)
From: Jenkintown is very boring
cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: another attempted magazine spam
In-Reply-To: <9604070032.AA13238@toko.graphics.cornell.edu>
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On Sat, 6 Apr 1996, Mitch Collinsworth wrote:
>
> >I stopped yet another attemped magazine spam.
>
> Please post (as a minimum) the From: and Subject: headers here so those
> of us attempting to filter them can add them to our regexp lists (if they
> don't match what's already there). Thanks.
>
> -Mitch
>
(assmunch is probably subbed to this thing so I shouldn't say anything,
really) but does our magazine spam friend ever change his subject header
that much? The reason I ask is that I put ina subject-line procmail
filter for *Magazine Sub* weeks ago directed to /dev/null and I haven't
received a copy of that spam again. (my lists have never been hit with it,
just lists I'm subbed to)
Now people who have no control over their list setup can't do anything,
but certainly those of us who do (I'm not one...) should be able to filter
the spam before it hits the list.
Jason
From list-managers-owner Sat Apr 6 17:58:20 1996
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From: jeffw@smoe.org (Jeff Wasilko)
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Subject: Re: another attempted magazine spam
To: mkc@graphics.cornell.edu (Mitch Collinsworth)
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 20:30:26 -0500 (EST)
Cc: brian@ilinx.bctel.net, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
In-Reply-To: <9604070032.AA13238@toko.graphics.cornell.edu> from "Mitch Collinsworth" at Apr 6, 96 07:32:37 pm
Organization: Jeff's Personal System
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Mitch Collinsworth writes:
>
>
> >I stopped yet another attemped magazine spam.
>
> Please post (as a minimum) the From: and Subject: headers here so those
> of us attempting to filter them can add them to our regexp lists (if they
> don't match what's already there). Thanks.
This is how they looked from here.
>From nicola.du.plessis@uni.durban.ac.za Sat Apr 6 17:16:24 1996
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Approved: moderator
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Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 13:22:14 +0200
To: nicola.du.plessis@uni.durban.ac.za
From: nicola.du.plessis@uni.durban.ac.za, van_rooyen@vax1.vax.joburg.org.za,
chiu@capet.wn.ac.za, ronnie@jhft.co.za, ellen@tci.co.za,
samuels@uni.transvaal.ac.za, che@birmingham.org.za, chir@natal.co.za,
wrend@rfg1.co.za, susans@uni.swaziland.c.za, gregor@southampton.org.za,
ellen@plymouth.ac.za, gfos@fresno.co.za, tren@uni.london.ac.za,
jimt@uni.london.ac.za, fharile@plymouth.org.za, relson@chi.ds.co.za,
nels@hall.co.za, sarap@ruv4.co.za,
gspelling@earthlite.co.za (Nicola du Plessis, President of the South Africa Association of
University Students and the Board of Directors of the South Africa
Association of University Students)
Subject: ---> FREE 1 yr. Magazine Sub sent worldwide- 290+ Popular USA Titles
From list-managers-owner Sun Apr 7 07:56:33 1996
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Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 10:47:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jenkintown is very boring
cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, SmartList@Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE
Subject: Re: Majordomo vs. SmartList
In-Reply-To:
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>
> It has also been told that SmartList only keeps on copy of itself in
> memory for each mailing list - regardless of queued messages. With nearly
> 20000 messages (anticipated) being distributed, calling 20000 majordomos
> into memory each day would kill even a Pentium Pro 200mhz system!
>
> How ever - Majordomo is clearly the advance leader in free mailing list
> software in it's remote administration features, digest features, and has
> much fewer bugs.
>
> I would be willing to make that trade off (SmartList over MajorDomo) if I
> could prove that SmartList handled system resources better that Majordomo.
>
> Any thoughts on this?
>
All I know is:
1) Every system I've used that had majordomo as the listserver has had to
chuck majordomo because eventually it ate every system resource in
sight. One kept throwing memory in the box, and at one point majordomo
got so stoned it spewed out 200 copies of each post.
2) I tried using Smartlist on another system and gave up because of the
"people can't unsubscribe" bug that shows up on some systems.
The system I'm on now switched from majordomo to listproc, and appears to
be having problems with listproc, too.
Smartlist probably isn't helped by the fact that to the uninitiated,
procmail scripts look like line noise.
Jason
From list-managers-owner Sun Apr 7 20:10:23 1996
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From: Sanwar Ali
Organization: BCL Immigration Services
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 17:14:35 +0000
Subject: Help; Majordomo Problems
Reply-to: sanwar@bclimser.demon.co.uk
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Hi
I have a list on majordomo at pobox. I have recently lost about 200
subscribers. Pobox have kindly offered to restore from a backup early
on 05.04.96. I do not know what has caused this problem. I am
normally very careful when using WEBDOMO (web front-end for
MAJORDOMO).
I am currently thinking that the only thing I can do to solve this
prob is to get pobox to restore from backup and then I will look
through the sub and unsub requests covering say 06.04.96 and part of
05.04.96. and hopefully this will solve the problem.
Any advice and/or comments would be v much appreciated.
Many thanks.
--
Sanwar Ali
Managing Partner
BCL Immigration Services
40 South Audley Street
Mayfair
London, W1Y 5DH
UK
Telephone: +44 171 495 3999 or +44 171 495 8662
Fax: +44 171 495 3991
e-mail: sanwar@bclimser.demon.co.uk, sanwar@pobox.com
For public key: finger sanwar@pobox.com
********************
Owners of the Visa-Free List.
"Discussion of how to gain another nationality for visa-free
travel".
To subscribe: subscribe visa-free [with nothing else]
to majordomo@pobox.com
******************
From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 8 02:41:08 1996
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From: Alexander Verbraeck
Message-Id: <199604080933.LAA28043@duticai.twi.tudelft.nl>
Subject: Magazine spam header
To: postmaster@aol.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 11:33:25 +0200 (MET DST)
Cc: winfave@duticai.twi.tudelft.nl
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I received the latest "Free 1 yr. Magazine" spam from an EXISTING
address at AOL.COM. Maybe, it uses a "service" at fidonet to
send the material to different lists, if it is not fake. The user
exists, but currently has a full mailbox. THIS MEANS THAT AOL KNOWS
THE NAME, ADDRESS, AND OTHER IMPORTANT FEATURES OF THIS USER. I suggest
AOL to take appropriate action.
Alexander Verbraeck.
List manager BPR-L
Forwarded message:
>From JohnChen00@aol.com Mon Apr 8 10:40:35 MET DST 1996
From: JohnChen00@aol.com
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 03:32:58 -0400
Message-ID: <960408033254_266460489@mail06>
Subject: Interesting Free Offer........
---------------------
Forwarded message:
Subj: Interesting Free Offer........
Date: 96-04-08 02:45:01 EDT
From: JohnChen00
To: announcement.service@r1.f62.n8669.z303.fidonet.org
-----> NOTE: Please first read my note which appears below the "Request for
more info Form." Then, to get more info, just fill out the "Request for More
Info" form completely and *FAX* or *SMAIL* it back to the company. You will
get a quick reply via email within 1 business day of receipt of the info
request form below.
<>
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Alexander Verbraeck Delft University of Technology
Department of Systems Engineering, Policy Analysis and Management
Jaffalaan 5 P.O. Box 5015, 2600 GA Delft The Netherlands
Tel: +31 15 2783805 Secr: +31 15 2788380 Fax: +31 15 2783429
e-mail: A.Verbraeck@sepa.tudelft.nl List manager BPR-L, DYNMOD-L
http://www.sepa.tudelft.nl/~alexandv/ See also ..../bpr-l.html
-----------------------------------------------------------------
From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 8 06:18:07 1996
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From: PMDAtropos@aol.com
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Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 08:54:35 -0400
Message-ID: <960408085434_371255369@emout10.mail.aol.com>
To: A.Verbraeck@duticai.twi.tudelft.nl, Postmaster@aol.com,
list-managers@greatcircle.com
cc: winfave@duticai.twi.tudelft.nl
Subject: Re: Magazine spam header
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
In a message dated 96-04-08 08:16:22 EDT, A.Verbraeck@duticai.twi.tudelft.nl
(Alexander Verbraeck) writes:
> I suggest AOL to take appropriate action.
My apologies for the lengthy delay in dealing with the spammer; s/he had
started just after I retired for the evening. In any event, the account has
been terminated with no chance for appeal.
--
__ David B. O'Donnell (atropos@aol.net, PMDAtropos@aol.com)
\/ AOL Internet Feedback/Response/Information Team Manager
Tel. 703/453-4000 x4255 FAX 703/453-4001 "The spam
WWW: http://ifrit.web.aol.com/atropos/ stops here."
From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 8 06:34:18 1996
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Comments: Authenticated sender is
From: Michael White
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 14:21:57 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Subject: Majordomo for PC?
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.21)
Message-ID: <828969672.13886.0@teapots.demon.co.uk>
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
Hello all.
I am now going to stop using Linux and other UNIXes alltogether to
use PCs. I am running a few lists via the Majordomo for Linux and I
want to continue using the same or similar commands when I switch al
operations to my PCs. I have almost any network driver and email
package you like, so that's not a problem - but the only way I have
found of managing lists from a PC is with the Pegasus mail 'mail
filtering rules' and 'distribution lists'.. Is there a Majordomo port
for PC?...
__________________________________________________________
mike@teapots.demon.co.uk ac@angel.co.uk Michael White
http://www.angel.co.uk/ac/mikey/index.shtml Aberdeen
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
**New Sig!!**
From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 8 06:41:44 1996
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Mime-Version: 1.0
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Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 08:34:33 -0400
To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: simonsez@emapnet.com (Andrea and Jay)
Subject: another address for magazine spam
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
I have been following the posting of mag spam addresses, but dont know if
this one was posted yet. Sorry if its a dup.
My announcement came out last night - bounce came in this morning!
>From nethumor-owner Mon Apr 8 01:43:15 1996
Received: from emout09.mail.aol.com by smtp.bapp.com; Mon, 8 Apr 1996
01:43:14 -0600
From: JohnChen00@aol.com
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1996 03:36:14 -0400
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 03:36:14 -0400
Message-ID: <960408033614_266461215@emout09.mail.aol.com>
Subject: Interesting Free Offer........
Apparently-To:
---------------------
Forwarded message:
Subj: Interesting Free Offer........
Date: 96-04-08 02:45:01 EDT
From: JohnChen00
To: announcement.service@r1.f62.n8669.z303.fidonet.org
-----> NOTE: Please first read my note which appears below the "Request for
more info Form." Then, to get more info, just fill out the "Request for More
Info" form completely and *FAX* or *SMAIL* it back to the company. You will
get a quick reply via email within 1 business day of receipt of the info
request form below.
........etc, etc, etc
From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 8 06:54:45 1996
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X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Subject: Pangaea
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Date: Mon, 08 Apr 1996 09:49:18 EDT
From: Jered Floyd
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
I hadn't seen this go to the list yet, and thought people might find
this interesting. This is apparently being sent to many list managers.
--Jered
jered@mit.edu
------- Forwarded Message
From: List Archive Manager
Subject: request to archive
Pangaea Reference Systems, Inc. is developing a search service
(Reference.COM) that will provide the Internet community fast, easy,
and free access to Usenet and electronic mailing lists. The service
is made possible in large part by the contributions (software,
hardware, communications infrastructure) of NASA Ames, Sun, Oracle,
Verity, Pacific Bell, Storage Computer and others. The service will
include paid advertising from corporate sponsors, in addition to free
advertising space for non-profits. The service will be both Web and
e-mail accessible. It is expected to be the largest online repository
of Usenet and electronic mailing list archives.
Pangaea's goal is to provide users with fairly complete coverage of
Usenet and electronic mailing lists. To this end, we would like to
subscribe to the list. By allowing us access to
your list, you will be making your content (current and historical)
easily accessible to the Internet community, as well as your
own subscribers.
Should you have any questions regarding the service, please contact us
at list-manager@Reference.COM.
If you are willing to include your list in our search service, please
add the address listarch+Lost-Chords@list-archive.Reference.COM
to the list. We would also appreciate a note sent
to list-manager@Reference.COM letting us know whether or not you are
willing to participate.
If we do not hear from you in one week, we will assume that you do
not object to our sending a subscription message to your list server.
If you prefer that we not archive your list, please respond within
that period.
Thanks for your consideration.
======================================================================
Pangaea Reference Systems NASA Ames Technology
Commercialization Center
155A Moffett Park Drive, Suite 104 http://www.Reference.COM
Sunnyvale, CA 94089 +1 408 541 7633
======================================================================
Q: How much will users have to pay to get to the data I'm supplying
you for free?
A: Zero, nada, zilch. Not now, not ever. We will make our money by
including ads on the web page, much like other free services do
today. Someday we may add premium services that will include an
additional charge, but the base services will always be free to
the end user.
Q: Just who are you?
A: We are a small startup located in the NASA Ames Technology
Commercialization Center in Silicon Valley. Our access to
database technology from Oracle, hardware from Sun, and high speed
Internet access from Pacific Bell gives us a unique edge. Our
technical team includes Eric Allman, the creator/developer of
sendmail and Professor Hector Garcia-Molina, head of the
Digital Library Project at Stanford University.
Q: How will people access your service?
A: Queries can be submitted and the results retrieved via the web
(http://www.reference.com) or by e-mail. See our home page for
details.
------- End of Forwarded Message
From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 8 08:54:44 1996
Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id IAA13564 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 08:43:42 -0700 (PDT)
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X-Sender: brent@miles.greatcircle.com
Message-Id:
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 08:43:18 -0800
To: Jered Floyd , list-managers@greatcircle.com
From: Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman)
Subject: Re: Pangaea
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
At 9:49 AM 4/8/96, Jered Floyd wrote:
> I hadn't seen this go to the list yet, and thought people might find
>this interesting. This is apparently being sent to many list managers.
>
>--Jered
>jered@mit.edu
>
>------- Forwarded Message
>From: List Archive Manager
>Subject: request to archive
>
>Pangaea Reference Systems, Inc. is developing a search service
>(Reference.COM) that will provide the Internet community fast, easy,
>and free access to Usenet and electronic mailing lists. The service
>is made possible in large part by the contributions (software,
>hardware, communications infrastructure) of NASA Ames, Sun, Oracle,
>Verity, Pacific Bell, Storage Computer and others. The service will
>include paid advertising from corporate sponsors, in addition to free
>advertising space for non-profits. The service will be both Web and
>e-mail accessible. It is expected to be the largest online repository
>of Usenet and electronic mailing list archives.
>
>Pangaea's goal is to provide users with fairly complete coverage of
>Usenet and electronic mailing lists. To this end, we would like to
>subscribe to the list. By allowing us access to
>your list, you will be making your content (current and historical)
>easily accessible to the Internet community, as well as your
>own subscribers.
...
One of the principals of this company is Eric Allman, of Sendmail fame.
Eric first approached me concerning this project about 6 months ago. Since
then, I've had several long discussions with him about this project, and
how to do it so as to maximize usefulness to the Internet community while
minimizing hassle and heartburn for the list managers. They're very
sensitive to the concerns of list managers, and are trying really hard not
to step on anybody's toes.
What they're talking about is basicly a Yahoo or Alta Vista for mailing
lists. They'll archive everything, and set it up for access via some
pretty powerful search engines. Presumably when people access the Pangaea
site through the Web, to run their searches, they'll get little "banner"
ads (just like on Yahoo) on each page of search results; very unobtrusive.
If you run a private or sensitive list, or for any other reason don't want
your list included in the set they archive, just tell them; they'll be
happy to leave you out. On the other hand, if you run a public list, why
not let 'em archive and index it?
I'm going to let them subscribe to all the lists here at GreatCircle.COM.
-Brent
----------------------+----------------------------+------------------------
Brent Chapman | Great Circle Associates | 1057 West Dana Street
Brent@GreatCircle.COM | http://www.greatcircle.com | Mountain View, CA 94041
----------------------+----------------------------+------------------------
Internet Tutorials from the Experts!
From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 8 09:39:51 1996
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Received: from dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id JAA15523 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 09:36:51 -0700 (PDT)
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Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 09:33:51 -0700
Message-Id: <199604081633.JAA14994@dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com>
From: greyhave@ix.netcom.com (R.Smith)
Subject: Re: [Pangaea] List "advertisement"
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
>They're very
>sensitive to the concerns of list managers, and are trying really hard
not
>to step on anybody's toes.
>If you run a private or sensitive list, or for any other reason don't
want
>your list included in the set they archive, just tell them; they'll be
>happy to leave you out. On the other hand, if you run a public list,
why
>not let 'em archive and index it?
I have mixed feelings about List publicity in general and I'd like to
share these with other List Managers. I own a list for present and
prospective adoptive parents of Chinese orphans. Subscription is open,
unmoderated, but only subscribers can post. The tone of the group is
amazingly buoyant and upbeat, and truly heartwarming. In three months,
we've had no flames and only slight bickering, easily resolved. I've
had only one problem with an anonymous subscriber who posted a
disturbing rumor and was unsubscribed.
The List now has 600 subscribers in 10 countries - about 1100 people
counting couples - so we're not exactly "private". On the other hand,
given the nature of the subject, many of the posts are (not
surprisingly) emotional and personal. We are not archived, and the
general feeling, when I raised the question with the small group
subscribed at the start, was that they didn't feel comfortable having
their messages archived if they could be read by "outsiders".
On the other hand, I'd like to see that news of the existence of the
List reaches everyone who has an interest in China adoption.
I just added our List name and description to the Liszt index. Any
other suggestions?
Thanks,
Richard Smith
From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 8 09:54:39 1996
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From: "Brad Knowles"
Message-Id: <9604081238.ZM4081@azathoth.ops.aol.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 12:38:23 -0400
In-Reply-To: Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman)
"Re: Pangaea" (Apr 8, 8:43am)
References:
Reply-To: BKnowles@aol.net
Organization: America Online, Inc.
X-Telephone: (703) 453-4148
X-Telefacsimile: (703) 453-4005
X-PGP-New-Fingerprint: DA 2A 59 B1 A8 BD 4C B2 B0 41 CE 6E BD C3 15 54
X-PGP-Old-Fingerprint: AD 47 4C BF 61 6C 4D 7C 45 EF 6B E5 23 FF 11 18
X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10oct95)
To: Brent Chapman , Jered Floyd ,
list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: Pangaea
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
On Apr 8, 8:43am, Brent Chapman wrote:
> What they're talking about is basicly a Yahoo or Alta Vista for mailing
> lists. They'll archive everything, and set it up for access via some
> pretty powerful search engines. Presumably when people access the Pangaea
> site through the Web, to run their searches, they'll get little "banner"
> ads (just like on Yahoo) on each page of search results; very unobtrusive.
In my discussions with Eric, I got the impression that it was more
like DejaNews, but with mailing lists included as well. They're going
to be using some very interesting technology to make the searches much
useful and relevant to the people doing the searches (far beyond
simple keyword or boolean searches, or those combined with some sort
of ranking system).
This is part of why they've already made it into the set of
additional references in the new version of the comp.mail.sendmail FAQ
-- I honestly believe that if anyone can make this kind of project
succeed, they can.
> I'm going to let them subscribe to all the lists here at GreatCircle.COM.
All of the lists I manage are very small and not well-known, and
only one or two of them are fairly "private". Assuming I eve show up
on their "radar" and they request to be added to my public lists, I'll
be glad to give them a subscription.
--
Brad Knowles MIME/PGP: BKnowles@aol.net
Mail Systems Administrator
for America Online, Inc. Ph: (703) 453-4148
PGP keys available from pgp-public-keys@pgp.ai.mit.edu
From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 8 23:09:52 1996
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Message-Id: <199604081738.KAA18198@miles.greatcircle.com>
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with BSMTP id 6658; Mon, 08 Apr 96 19:38:08 +0100
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Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 19:26:43 +0200
From: Eric Thomas
Subject: Re: Pangaea
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 8 Apr 1996 08:43:18 -0800 from
list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
For what little it might be worth, as a matter of policy I refuse to
allow such services to subscribe to my lists when the stated default
action is that they will subscribe automatically unless they hear
otherwise from me. The rationale is that they're asking me a favour, from
which they will collect $$$ (and I don't care if it's for profit or non
profit, the fact of the matter is that this $$$ will be used to pay the
requestor's paycheck). The least they could do (and I don't know the
specifics of this particular service, since I haven't been contacted yet)
is not to force me to individually reply to 150 solicitations for each of
the ~150 lists I am in charge of, and put REJECT as the first line of my
message (or whatever the case might be) if I do not want my lists
included. As a matter of policy, I interpret this as an attempt to bully
me into acceptance to maximize the $$$ transfer, and I filter out the
requestor's domain so that they cannot subscribe to any of the lists. To
put it simply, when people ask me a favour I expect them to minimize the
amount of work that it will take me to EITHER accept or reject the
favour, and I certainly resent any implication that if I am stupid enough
to refuse to help them make money, I'll get what I deserve and it's
perfectly ok if I have to spend an hour replying REJECT to 150 individual
messages.
Eric
From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 9 00:24:41 1996
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Received: from gsenu14.gsen.goldstar.co.kr ([156.147.205.15]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id AAA05782 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 00:20:51 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by gsenu14.gsen.goldstar.co.kr (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03)
id AA19847; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 16:17:19 +1000
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 16:17:19 +1000
From: kimhl@gsenu14.gsen.goldstar.co.kr (kim hong lak(4327))
Message-Id: <9604090617.AA19847@gsenu14.gsen.goldstar.co.kr>
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Subject: resending problem(*)
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
Hi!
I'v been installed majordomo on AIX 3.2.4 .
And there is no problem to get a basic response(ex. lists , help , info ....) from majordomo server.
but whenever resending to list has some problem like below .
Error message below was appeared in postmaster of majordomo server
when resending was processing.
So anyone who subscribed to that list can't receive the mail.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Message 1:
From roo Tue Apr 9 05:53:52 1996
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 05:53:52 GMT
To: Postmaster
From: Majordomo
Subject: MAJORDOMO ABORT
Reply-To: Majordomo
--
MAJORDOMO ABORT
open of temp file /usr/local/majordomo-1.93/mail/digest/sw-digest/shlock.19226 failed
No such file or directory
------------------------------------------------------------------
And Would you please check out the aliases file on majordomo server?
The aliases file is below
------------------------------------------------------------------
majordomo: "|/usr/local/majordomo-1.93/wrapper majordomo"
majordomo-owner: kimhl@gsen.goldstar.co.kr
owner-majordomo: kimhl
# Software
owner-sw: leemr@gsenu6.gsen.goldstar.co.kr
sw-approval: leemr@gsenu6.gsen.goldstar.co.kr
sw: "|/usr/local/majordomo-1.93/wrapper resend -l sw -h gsenu14.gsen.goldstar.co.kr sw-outgoing"
sw-digest: sw
owner-sw-outgoing: owner-sw
sw-outgoing: :include:/usr/local/majordomo-1.93/mail/lists/sw,
"|/usr/local/majordomo-1.93/wrapper digest -r -C -l sw-digest sw-digest-outgoing"
owner-sw-digest-outgoing: owner-sw
sw-digest-outgoing: :include:/usr/local/majordomo-1.93/mail/lists/sw-digest
owner-sw-request: owner-sw
sw-request: "|/usr/local/majordomo-1.93/wrapper majordomo -l sw"
owner-sw-digest-request: sw-digest-owner
sw-digest-request: "|/usr/local/majordomo-1.93/wrapper majordomo -l sw-digest"
------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you for reading
From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 9 04:56:12 1996
Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id EAA18806 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 04:42:18 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from Garbo.NrgUp.Com (nrgup-gw.iquest.net [198.70.144.154]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id EAA18800 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 04:42:13 -0700 (PDT)
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From: Jonathan Bradshaw
Message-Id: <199604091140.GAA11735@Garbo.NrgUp.Com>
Subject: Typo...
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 06:40:12 -0500 (EST)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP3A]
Content-Type: text
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
Yeh, there was a typo in my last message, its mailhost.worldnet.att.com,
shows you that at 6am I can't even copy simple text from one terminal
to the other.
--
Jonathan M. Bradshaw | Jonathan@NrgUp.Com | http://WWW.NrgUp.Com/jonathan
1024 PGP Key fingerprint EA 16 1B 5D 5D 94 6B 06 58 FD E6 E9 52 F3 6E 11
Software Administrator, Boehringer Mannheim Corporation, Indianapolis, IN
Please note my opinions do not necessarily represent those of my employer
From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 9 05:13:35 1996
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From: Jonathan Bradshaw
Message-Id: <199604091137.GAA11702@Garbo.NrgUp.Com>
Subject: WorldNet - Do they know what mail is?
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 06:37:59 -0500 (EST)
Cc: postmaster@worldnet.att.com
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Somehow it does not suprise me that WorldNet.Att.Com has yet to get a
clue about email.
So far, my mailq is full of "No route to host" for a host called
postoffice.worldnet.att.com
Now, checking DNS I see that host doesn't exist and now the MX points to
mailhost.worldnet.att.com
So the mail in my queue will never arrive -- I assume that they have
changed their DNS entry from postoffice to mailhost.
Hmm, ok, unfortunately, mailhost returns
mailhost.worldnett.att.net: Unknown server error
Well, guess Worldnet customers get no email. Certainly I think nearly
nothing has managed to get to them from my mailing lists and I have
yet to receive anything from them.
One machine to handle all Worldnet mail? Oh boy... will they ever learn?
.... and the company that will bring it to you... Yeh right :-) Won't
bring them email!
- --
Jonathan M. Bradshaw | Jonathan@NrgUp.Com | http://WWW.NrgUp.Com/jonathan
1024 PGP Key fingerprint EA 16 1B 5D 5D 94 6B 06 58 FD E6 E9 52 F3 6E 11
Software Administrator, Boehringer Mannheim Corporation, Indianapolis, IN
Please note my opinions do not necessarily represent those of my employer
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From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 9 07:19:34 1996
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Date: Tue, 09 Apr 1996 09:00:26 -0700
From: Joe Moore
Organization: South Dakota State University
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To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V5 #66
References: <199604090800.BAA08746@miles.greatcircle.com>
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I guess I read their letter differently? The 150 messages will be
annoying but they would need to go to a lot of work to eliminate
duplicates there.
Part of Pangaea note:
> If you are willing to include your list in our search service, please
> add the address listarch+Lost-Chords@list-archive.Reference.COM
> to the list. We would also appreciate a note sent
> to list-manager@Reference.COM letting us know whether or not you are
> willing to participate.
>
Part of Eric T note:
> For what little it might be worth, as a matter of policy I refuse to
> allow such services to subscribe to my lists when the stated default
> action is that they will subscribe automatically unless they hear
> otherwise from me. The rationale is that they're asking me a favour, from
> which they will collect $$$ (and I don't care if it's for profit or non
--
Joe Moore
South Dakota State University
Normal E-mail: cc19@sdsumus.sdstate.edu
More urgent E-mail: moorej@cc.sdstate.edu (but don't hesitate to use)
Quick mail URL: mailto:moorej@cc.sdstate.edu
From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 9 11:26:38 1996
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Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 19:33:33 +0200
From: Eric Thomas
Subject: Re: Pangaea
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 9 Apr 1996 09:08:20 -0800 from Brent Chapman
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
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On Tue, 9 Apr 1996 09:08:20 -0800 Brent Chapman
said:
>On the other hand, they could have simply subscribed to your lists
>without bothering to ask first, and chances are you'd never have
>noticed.
It would have looked like a subscription spoof and been handled
accordingly. Sorry, it's not like it's not been tried before.
>And look at this from another point of view: I intend to allow them to
>subscribe to my lists. If they changed their default, then I'd have to
>manually process all their subscriptions, or send back a message saying
>"Yes, it's OK for you to subscribe."
Which would take you all of 30 seconds. My point being that THEY are
going to make money on the lists YOU run, typically on a volunteer basis,
and it is only fair that THEY should make the effort. This includes the
effort of adding 10 lines to their perl script so that they only send one
request for all the lists hosted at any given machine, to which you can
answer either YES TO ALL or YES TO THE FOLLOWING. Then it takes you just
as long to say yes or no.
>The question is, which is more common: list owners that are going to say
>yes, or list owners that are going to say no? I think the former;
And you're perfectly right. If being on vacation or not having the time
to answer REJECT to 150 automatically generated messages counts as a yes,
there's no question that most of the list owners will say yes, not
necessarily because they think it will be a good service or because they
are eager to contribute to the paycheck of the author of sendmail, but
simply because they don't have the time or energy to turn it off.
Brent, your logic and rationale here follows the assumption that these
are good people who are out to do a Good Thing. I appreciate the fact
that you know them personally and may feel this way. The procedures and
etiquette, however, should be the same for any company that wishes to
provide this kind of service. It annoys me to think that if CyberPorn
Inc. made the same request tomorrow in exactly the same terms, except
with the intent to publish X-rated advertisements instead, people would
all be flaming them for having made it so difficult not to be included.
The thing is, personally I don't care if it's the Pope or CyberPorn Inc.
I expect the same courtesy from both in terms of not wasting my time, and
I respect the fact that both are equally entitled to hope that I will let
them access my lists and thus the most reasonable default is YES.
Eric
From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 10 06:55:08 1996
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To: BKnowles@aol.net
cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, john.lines@aeat.co.uk
Subject: robotinfo list manager command - Was: Re: Pangaea
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 08 Apr 1996 12:38:23 EDT."
<9604081238.ZM4081@azathoth.ops.aol.com>
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Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 14:20:56 +0100
From: John Lines
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Brad Knowles wrote:
> On Apr 8, 8:43am, Brent Chapman wrote:
>
> > What they're talking about is basicly a Yahoo or Alta Vista for mailing
> > lists. They'll archive everything, and set it up for access via some
> > pretty powerful search engines. Presumably when people access the Pangaea
> > site through the Web, to run their searches, they'll get little "banner"
> > ads (just like on Yahoo) on each page of search results; very unobtrusive.
>
> In my discussions with Eric, I got the impression that it was more
> like DejaNews, but with mailing lists included as well. They're going
> to be using some very interesting technology to make the searches much
> useful and relevant to the people doing the searches (far beyond
> simple keyword or boolean searches, or those combined with some sort
> of ranking system).
You can ask most Web indexing agents not to index your pages by using the
robots.txt file. Perhaps what we need for lists is a way to return information
to 'Listcrawler' robots to indicate information about the list policy in
a structured way.
For example it would be trivial to add a new 'robotinfo [listname]' command
to Majordomo (just crib the existing info command)
It could return information as a set of fields e.g.
Listname: sample
Listtype: majordomo
Moderated: yes
Www-archive: http://www.sample.com/lists/sample/
Subscriptions: closed
...
RobotArchive: no
IncludeInMetaLists: ask owner
Keywords: sample list
The RobotArchive field indicates whether robot subscribers are welcome or not
The IncludeInMetaLists tells collectors of lists whether they should publish
the existence of your list. (Someone can probably think of better names for
these fields)
Both have the field values
yes - go ahead and index or archive
no - dont index (and dont bother the list owner to ask)
ask [owner or email address] - ask the list owner or the given email
address for permission.
All the fields in the return message are optional, but designed to help a
list manager to communicate with others who are interested in the list itself
in a structured way, similar to the way that normal list management software
allows the list owner to communicate information about the list to subscribers
in a structured way.
It would help everyone if we could establish the same keyword and reply
format across all list management packages.
John Lines (AEA Technology Internet Manager)
From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 10 08:43:46 1996
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From: jeffw@triple-i.com (Jeff Wasilko)
Message-Id: <9604101526.AA26547@siesta>
Subject: mega-bounces from ix.netcom.com?
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 08:26:37 -0700 (PDT)
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I'm seeing all list subscribes that have accounts on
ix.netcom.com bouncing back as 'user unknown'.
Did all of my subscribers forget to pay their bills, or is netcom
having problems?
Anyone else seeing this?
Jeff
From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 10 09:49:29 1996
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From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme
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To: jeffw@triple-i.com
CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
In-reply-to: <9604101526.AA26547@siesta> (jeffw@triple-i.com)
Subject: Re: mega-bounces from ix.netcom.com?
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[Jeff Wasilko]
| I'm seeing all list subscribes that have accounts on ix.netcom.com
| bouncing back as 'user unknown'.
Well, I've currently got only one ix.netcom.com subscriber, but it's
pretty much indeterminate whether he's reported as unknown or not.
Unfortunately, I haven't kept the bounces, but the last bounce came
from ix13.ix.netcom.com. When I later checked manually (with vrfy), it
was working.
Kjetil T.
From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 10 12:34:21 1996
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Date: Wed, 10 Apr 96 09:41 PDT
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To: list-managers-digest@GreatCircle.com
From: Walter Morales
Subject: I have a question
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
First time here..
>
> And I have a question.
>
> I run a mailing list that has about 1500 users.
> There is a user in Brazil, that has broken almost every rule in the
> netiquette guide.
>
> My first request was for him to slow down a little on the number of messages
> that he was sending >10 a day, and the average before was about <20 from all
> the users a day. His response "I don't count them, so that it is not
> relevant to me"
>
> Well.. not very happy here since it was causing hundreds of bounces from
> people that were no longer with email accounts or mail boxes full, etc.
>
> Other users started to complain and this user just kept his messages non
> stop. Messages that were sent to him in a personal basis he forward to the
> whole list.
>
> Anyway, I am tired of it and so are many other users. My question is, is
> there any problem in removing such a problematic user? others have tried to
> reason with him but it does not work.
>
> After removing a user like this he may start bothering other people that
> will eventually write me and I don't have much time to answer dozens of
> questions from people that have no idea about his behavior on my list.
>
> Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.
>
> Thanks
> walter
>
>
From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 10 13:45:54 1996
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From: "J. Philip Miller"
Message-Id: <199604101701.MAA23989@wubios.wustl.edu>
Subject: Re: mega-bounces from ix.netcom.com?
To: jeffw@triple-i.com (Jeff Wasilko)
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 12:01:40 -0500 (CDT)
Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com
In-Reply-To: <9604101526.AA26547@siesta> from "Jeff Wasilko" at Apr 10, 96 08:26:37 am
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> I'm seeing all list subscribes that have accounts on
> ix.netcom.com bouncing back as 'user unknown'.
>
> Anyone else seeing this?
>
yup!
> Jeff
>
--
J. Philip Miller, Professor, Division of Biostatistics, Box 8067
Washington University Medical School, St. Louis MO 63110
phil@wubios.WUstl.edu - (314) 362-3617 [362-2693(FAX)]
http://www.biostat.wustl.edu/~phil
From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 10 13:53:47 1996
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From: "Byron C. Howes"
Message-Id: <9604101716.AA22405@ecsvax.uncecs.edu>
Subject: Re: mega-bounces from ix.netcom.com?
To: jeffw@triple-i.com (Jeff Wasilko)
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 96 13:16:19 EDT
Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
In-Reply-To: <9604101526.AA26547@siesta>; from "Jeff Wasilko" at Apr 10, 96 8:26 am
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Jeff Wasilko writes:
>
> I'm seeing all list subscribes that have accounts on
> ix.netcom.com bouncing back as 'user unknown'.
>
> Did all of my subscribers forget to pay their bills, or is netcom
> having problems?
>
> Anyone else seeing this?
I saw it for a very brief period last night/this morning, but the problem
seems to have 'fixed itself.' I'm always a little amazed at some of the
things that go wrong at netcom, but waiting them out is usually the best
approach.
--Byron
bch@ga.unc.edu
From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 10 13:58:48 1996
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Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 16:53:30 -0400
To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: Bryan Fullerton
Subject: Re: Majordomo vs. SmartList
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
BearHeart / Bill Weinman wrote:
>
> SmartMail is very smart. It splits my list up into managable
>chunks and spawns multiple copies of sendmail to send it out. It
>does preprocessing on the addresses to make sure that sendmail isn't
>wasting its time. It handles bounces, and will even unsubscribe
>addresses that bounce more than n times.
Something I've wondered about - how hard would it be to make Majordomo chop
up a list and only feed 100 or some definable number of destination
addresses to each copy of sendmail? One of the big problems with some
larger lists I host (2500+ subscribers) is the amount of time to send to all
subscribers - 25 simultaneous sendmail process with 100 destination
addresses each would be much better for my uses than 1 sendmail process with
2500 addresses. Wouldn't think it'd be all that hard, would it? Has
someone already experimented with this? I'll play with it myself if no one has.
Bryan
--
bryanf@samurai.com
Owner
Samurai Consulting
http://www.samurai.com
From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 10 14:13:47 1996
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Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 14:03:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Roger B.A. Klorese"
To: Bryan Fullerton
cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: Majordomo vs. SmartList
In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960410205330.00738dd0@home.samurai.com>
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On Wed, 10 Apr 1996, Bryan Fullerton wrote:
> Something I've wondered about - how hard would it be to make Majordomo chop
> up a list and only feed 100 or some definable number of destination
> addresses to each copy of sendmail?
This is what bulk_mailer was written for: to use as the "sendmail"
process in majordomo's "resend".
--
ROGER B.A. KLORESE rogerk@QueerNet.ORG
2215-R Market Street #576 San Francisco, CA 94114 +1 415 ALL-ARFF
"There is only one real blasphemy -- the refusal of joy!" -- Paul Rudnick
From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 10 14:38:35 1996
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To: bryanf@samurai.com
Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: Majordomo vs. SmartList
Reply-To: tibbs@uh.edu
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 10 Apr 1996 16:53:30 -0400"
References: <2.2.32.19960410205330.00738dd0@home.samurai.com>
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Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 16:16:48 -0500
From: Jason L Tibbitts III
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
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>>>>> "BF" == Bryan Fullerton writes:
BF> Something I've wondered about - how hard would it be to make Majordomo
BF> chop up a list and only feed 100 or some definable number of
BF> destination addresses to each copy of sendmail?
It's easy; use bulk_mailer as recommended in the Majordomo FAQ.
Future discussion on this topic should go to majordomo-users, not
list-managers.
---
Jason L. Tibbitts III - tibbs@uh.edu - 713/743-8684 - 221SR1
System Manager: University of Houston High Performance Computing Center
1994 PC800 "Kuroneko" DoD# 1723
From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 10 14:44:33 1996
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In-Reply-To: <199604091748.KAA08052@miles.greatcircle.com>
References: Message of Tue, 9 Apr 1996 09:08:20 -0800 from Brent Chapman
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Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 10:01:16 -0700
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: Paul Hoffman
Subject: Re: Pangaea
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
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>My point being that THEY are
>going to make money on the lists YOU run, typically on a volunteer basis,
>and it is only fair that THEY should make the effort. This includes the
>effort of adding 10 lines to their perl script so that they only send one
>request for all the lists hosted at any given machine, to which you can
>answer either YES TO ALL or YES TO THE FOLLOWING. Then it takes you just
>as long to say yes or no.
I agree with Eric here. They are doing something that will enrich them and
their customers in some way: they should put the effort in. Fortunately,
this is a case where we assume that the people doing the work probably
competant; however, they will certainly be followed by competitors who are
not.
The precedents should be set:
- If you want to subscribe to an open mailing list for a purpose other than
a human to participate in the list (even if that means just lurking), you
ask permission before you join, and you don't join unless permitted.
- If you are going to join a slew of lists run by one person, you try
figure out ways to induce the list manager to say yes to all.
Both are reasonable for the information collectors and show respect for the
list managers. This is similar to the "robot exclusion protocol" on the Web.
From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 10 15:28:47 1996
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Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 15:00:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: Veggy Vinny
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com, majordomo-users@greatcircle.com
Subject: Mailing Lists need a home
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Greetings everyone,
I am running a few mailing lists and was wondering if anyone out
there would be able to run it on their machine under majordomo? Please
let me know. Thanks!
Vince
From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 10 16:59:57 1996
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To: Walter Morales
Cc: list-managers-digest@greatcircle.com,
"SmartList Users"
Subject: Re: I have a question
Reply-To: "Alan K. Stebbens"
In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 10 Apr 1996 09:41:00 PDT.
<2.2.16.19960410095410.0f677dc2@rip.psg.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 16:42:30 -0700
From: Alan Stebbens
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
> First time here..
> > I run a mailing list that has about 1500 users.
> > There is a user in Brazil, that has broken almost every rule in the
> > netiquette guide.
> > Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.
Remove him from the "dist" and "accept" files, and then put his address
in the "reject" file.
This will keep him from subscribing.
If the list has "foreign_submit" disabled (not set), then he will not be
able to resubscribe and will not be able to submit.
However, If foreign_submit is enabled, then he can still submit, even
though he isn't subscribed. In this case, you'll have to create an
additional recipe and have it invoked at the place where
RC_LOCAL_SUBMIT_10 resides.
It can be done something like this:
a. In "rc.custom", define RC_LOCAL_SUBMIT_10=rc.local.s10
b. create the file "reject.submit" in the list directory and insert all
"bad guy" addresses in it.
c. Create "rc.local.s10" in the list directory. Put the following
recipe in it (*THIS IS UNTESTED--BUT SHOULD WORK*):
:0 w
| formail -X"From " -xFrom: -xReply-To: -xSender: -xResent-From: \
-xResent-Reply-To: -xResent-Sender: -xReturn-Path: | \
multigram -b1 -m -l$submit_threshold -L$domain \
-x$listaddr -x$listreq reject.submit
This will check the submitter address against a file of "bad guy"
addresses, "reject.submit", and if a successful match (using
"submit_threshold") is made, then "multigram" succeeds, causing
the mail to "go away" (procmail thinks that the mail was delivered
--to multigram).
Actually, something like this might be useful to add to the SmartList
"rc.submit" anyway.
Good luck.
Alan
From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 10 18:12:10 1996
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Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 13:53:18 -0600 (MDT)
From: "Andrew N. Edmond"
Subject: Re: mega-bounces from ix.netcom.com?
In-reply-to: <9604101716.AA22405@ecsvax.uncecs.edu>
To: "Byron C. Howes"
Cc: Jeff Wasilko , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
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> > Anyone else seeing this?
>
> I saw it for a very brief period last night/this morning, but the problem
> seems to have 'fixed itself.' I'm always a little amazed at some of the
> things that go wrong at netcom, but waiting them out is usually the best
> approach.
Same here - but only briefly last night... they seem to be ok now.
Andy
.............................................................................
. Andrew Edmond . Children of a future age, .
.. edmond@plains.uwyo.edu ... Reading this indignant page, ..
... University of Wyoming ..... Know that in a former time, ...
.... Botany Department ....... A path to God was thought a crime. ....
.....................VISIONARY PLANTS LIST...................................
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From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 10 18:55:13 1996
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Subject: Re: mega-bounces from ix.netcom.com?
From: Gerald Oskoboiny
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 19:32:22 -0600 (MDT)
In-Reply-To: <9604101526.AA26547@siesta> from "Jeff Wasilko" at Apr 10, 96 08:26:37 am
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Jeff Wasilko writes:
> I'm seeing all list subscribes that have accounts on
> ix.netcom.com bouncing back as 'user unknown'.
>
> Did all of my subscribers forget to pay their bills, or is netcom
> having problems?
>
> Anyone else seeing this?
Yeah, I got a bunch of these today, too (for 13 people from ix.netcom.com
on one list, and a few more on other lists.)
I just telnetted to ix.netcom.com's SMTP port and tried to VRFY some of
these people, and it seems to be working again. (no more "user unknown"s.)
Gerald
--
Gerald Oskoboiny http://ugweb.cs.ualberta.ca/~gerald/
From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 10 20:56:00 1996
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Subject: Re: I have a question
To: walter@rip.psg.com (Walter Morales)
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 22:39:02 -0500 (CDT)
Cc: list-managers-digest@GreatCircle.COM
In-Reply-To:
From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal)
Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal)
Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads
X-WWW-URL: http://www.schoneal.com/~meo/
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Walter Morales said...
|
|> I run a mailing list that has about 1500 users.
|> There is a user in Brazil, that has broken almost every rule in the
|> netiquette guide.
Since you have asked the user, repeatedly, to
behave, and they have not, I see no problem in
removal. I would write out a full explanation
ahead of time (get a couple of others to read it,
too), and send it to the user along with a brief
personal note that you are removing them. Send
the explanation to the list, and send it to anyone
he tries to get to harass you. If he or anyone
else harasses you, just set up a filter to bounce
their mail right back to them.
-Miles
From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 10 21:46:06 1996
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From: jeffw@triple-i.com (Jeff Wasilko)
Message-Id: <9604110414.AA02167@siesta>
Subject: Re: Majordomo vs. SmartList
To: bryanf@samurai.com (Bryan Fullerton)
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 21:14:49 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960410205330.00738dd0@home.samurai.com> from "Bryan Fullerton" at Apr 10, 96 04:53:30 pm
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Bryan Fullerton writes:
> Something I've wondered about - how hard would it be to make Majordomo chop
> up a list and only feed 100 or some definable number of destination
> addresses to each copy of sendmail? One of the big problems with some
> larger lists I host (2500+ subscribers) is the amount of time to send to all
> subscribers - 25 simultaneous sendmail process with 100 destination
> addresses each would be much better for my uses than 1 sendmail process with
> 2500 addresses. Wouldn't think it'd be all that hard, would it? Has
> someone already experimented with this? I'll play with it myself if no one has.
Get bulk_mailer (the location is in the faq). It does just that,
as well as sorting by domain, so all messages for a specific
domain usually end up in one envelope, meaning that you get just
one bounce back.
Jeff
--
Jeff Wasilko, Systems Representative Autologic Information International
Pager: +1 800 759 8888 pin 507-9658
From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 10 22:21:45 1996
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Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 21:33:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jonathon Blake
Subject: Re: mega-bounces from ix.netcom.com?
To: Jeff Wasilko
cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
In-Reply-To: <9604101526.AA26547@siesta>
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Jeff:
On Wed, 10 Apr 1996, Jeff Wasilko wrote:
> Did all of my subscribers forget to pay their bills, or is netcom
> having problems?
Netcom is undergoing one of its periodic service
upgrades.
In theory, this means that service at netcom will improve.
In practice, what happens is that service deteriorates to
a minimal acceptable level, where it stabilizes, until
the next go round of service "improvements".
<< I don't consider no mail delivery to be minimal-acceptable,
but maybe Garrison does. >>
> Anyone else seeing this?
It started sometime between Midnight and 6.00 AM this morning.
xan
jonathon
grafolog@netcom.com
**********************************************************************
* *
* Opinions expressed don't necessarily reflect my own views. *
* *
* There is no way that they can be construed to represent *
* any organization's views. *
* *
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
* ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/gr/graphology/home.html *
* *
***********************************************************************
From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 11 01:36:26 1996
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Date: Thu, 11 Apr 96 09:21 BST
From: Rachel Willmer
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Subject: how to clean up after spam?
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
I've just discovered that someone for whom I had set up a mail alias
under one of my domains has been using it to send out spam to a large
number of mailing lists. The mail alias was used to forward mail from
this domain to his local ISP mail name.
I've told him spam is not acceptable, of course, and removed the mail
alias, but is there anything else I need to do?
I don't know whether this guy has done enough that someone would go to
the trouble of mail bombing him, but if he has, is there anything I
can do to prepare for it?
Thanks for any suggestions
Rachel
--
Intertrader Ltd - Internet Services for Business
Internet Services: Web Design, Online Databases, Online Commerce, etc.
Email rachel@intertrader.com or visit us at http://www.intertrader.com/
Mail autoresponders: info@intertrader.com, prices@intertrader.com
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send a message to uk-net-request@intertrader.com
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From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 11 06:02:31 1996
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To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: Majordomo vs. SmartList (really bulk_mailer)
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 07:33:16 -0500
From: Gene Rackow
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
bulk_mailer is rather nice, as long as your machine can handle it.
Remember it's going to be forking off some number of copies of sendmail
for each incoming message. It's not uncommon for the load on the machine
I have it installed on to go from 0.5 to 19 rather quickly, stay there
for about a half hour, then fall to the norm again. This makes it
difficult for incoming mail to arrive after someone hits the big
list with a message. Setting it to queue the message only and not
attempt delivery makes it better, but then you loose some of the advantage of
pushing the message out to everyone as fast as possible as it now has to
wait for queue runs.
Yes, bulk_mailer makes things better, but it, nor other suggestions of
splitting a list into pieces is a total win. There are drawbacks to be
aware of.
-_Gene
From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 11 07:07:14 1996
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Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 09:20:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jack Downing
To: Veggy Vinny
cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, majordomo-users@greatcircle.com
Subject: Re: Mailing Lists need a home
In-Reply-To:
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Vince;
Sure thing -- we do this type of thing all the time. If you would like
to follow-up, please give me a call or e-mail, at (301) 731-8800.
Jack S. Downing
AllWare Internet, Inc.
Lanham, MD 20706
(301) 731-8800
jdowning@allware.com
On Wed, 10 Apr 1996, Veggy Vinny wrote:
> Greetings everyone,
>
> I am running a few mailing lists and was wondering if anyone out
> there would be able to run it on their machine under majordomo? Please
> let me know. Thanks!
>
> Vince
>
>
From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 11 07:17:39 1996
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Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 09:23:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: Keith Reding
To: Veggy Vinny
cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: Mailing Lists need a home
In-Reply-To:
Message-ID:
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
What is the nature of the list? If these keep going the way they are
with one of my lists, I may be looking for a home for it also.
Mine is for BSE (Mad Cow Disease).
Keith
USDA
On Wed, 10 Apr 1996, Veggy Vinny wrote:
> Greetings everyone,
>
> I am running a few mailing lists and was wondering if anyone out
> there would be able to run it on their machine under majordomo? Please
> let me know. Thanks!
>
> Vince
>
---------------------------
Keith Reding, Ph.D.
Biotechnologist
kreding@info.aphis.usda.gov
APHIS Mailing List Manager
(301) 734-8365
http://www.aphis.usda.gov/
--------------------------
From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 11 10:08:53 1996
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Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 11:12:36 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Steven L. Camp"
Subject: Re: Mailing Lists need a home
To: Veggy Vinny
Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM
In-Reply-To:
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On Wed, 10 Apr 1996, Veggy Vinny wrote:
> Greetings everyone,
>
> I am running a few mailing lists and was wondering if anyone out
> there would be able to run it on their machine under majordomo? Please
> let me know. Thanks!
We provide commercial mailing list support. You can EMail us at
sales@state.net or call (612)225-1110
From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 11 10:36:43 1996
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(5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 11 Apr 1996 18:24:57 +0100
From: Nigel Whitfield
Subject: Re: Majordomo vs. SmartList
Organization: Digital Diversity
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 17:20:14 GMT
Message-Id:
References: <2.2.32.19960410205330.00738dd0@home.samurai.com>
Apparently-To:
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In article <2.2.32.19960410205330.00738dd0@home.samurai.com>,
Bryan Fullerton wrote:
>Something I've wondered about - how hard would it be to make Majordomo chop
>up a list and only feed 100 or some definable number of destination
>addresses to each copy of sendmail?
I did something like this as a stop gap before completely re-writing
my list manager to make it easier on resources; it used to feed a load
of addresses to sendmail, which then did its usual tricks of looking
stuff up.
In the end I wrote a simple script, which takes the name of a config
file, so that instead of calling something like
|/usr/lib/sendmail list-outbound
you can call
|mailchat list
The address list is read in and matched to an optional list of
domains, list .uk, .com, aol.com and so on. Each listed domain, or
each group of 100 addresses results in a connection to the smtp port
on a specified host for the mail transaction.
This isn't perfect, but it did cut down on the load, and I have a copy
lying around for anyone who wants to try it.
(And I'm aware that I still have mail outstanding from the last person
who asked me for bits of my list code; been too busy with some other
stuff to reply to much mail lately).
Nigel.
--
Nigel Whitfield
nigel@diversity.org.uk Digital Diversity
nigel@stonewall.demon.co.uk and uk-motss
***** All demon.co.uk sites are independently run internet hosts *****
From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 11 12:10:06 1996
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Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 10:42:44 -0700 (PDT)
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To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: Rae French
Subject: Re: mega-bounces from ix.netcom.com?
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
I also had 8 subscribers and 1 approval for subscription show up as "user
unknown" from netcom. Does anyone know why this happened? I sent a message
to postmaster@ix.netcom.com regarding this but as of yet have received nothing.
Rae French
rfrench@teleport.com
From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 11 17:01:29 1996
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Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 12:04:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: Veggy Vinny
To: Jack Downing
cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, majordomo-users@greatcircle.com
Subject: Re: Mailing Lists need a home
In-Reply-To:
Message-ID:
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
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On Thu, 11 Apr 1996, Jack Downing wrote:
Hi Jack,
> Sure thing -- we do this type of thing all the time. If you would like
> to follow-up, please give me a call or e-mail, at (301) 731-8800.
Would this cost anything since these lists used to be hosted for free
as it is provided to the net for free information sharing.
Cheers,
-Vince- richardc@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU - vince@COSC.GOV - vince@cygnus.sy.yale.edu
GUS Mailing Lists Admin - http://www.COSC.GOV/~vince
UC Berkeley AstroPhysics - Electrical Engineering (Honorary B.S.)
Chabot Observatory & Science Center - Oakland, California USA
Computing Networking Operations - Advisory Council Member
Running FreeBSD - Real UN*X for Free!
Linda Wong/Vivian Chow/Hacken Lee/Danny Chan/Priscilla Chan Fan Club
Mailing Lists Admin
> On Wed, 10 Apr 1996, Veggy Vinny wrote:
>
> > Greetings everyone,
> >
> > I am running a few mailing lists and was wondering if anyone out
> > there would be able to run it on their machine under majordomo? Please
> > let me know. Thanks!
> >
> > Vince
> >
> >
>
From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 11 17:09:33 1996
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Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 12:03:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: Veggy Vinny
To: Keith Reding
cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: Mailing Lists need a home
In-Reply-To:
Message-ID:
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
On Thu, 11 Apr 1996, Keith Reding wrote:
> What is the nature of the list? If these keep going the way they are
> with one of my lists, I may be looking for a home for it also.
>
> Mine is for BSE (Mad Cow Disease).
It's for the support of the Gravis UltraSound card and also a
few Hong Kong singer fan club lists... Hope you can help.
Cheers,
-Vince- richardc@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU - vince@COSC.GOV - vince@cygnus.sy.yale.edu
GUS Mailing Lists Admin - http://www.COSC.GOV/~vince
UC Berkeley AstroPhysics - Electrical Engineering (Honorary B.S.)
Chabot Observatory & Science Center - Oakland, California USA
Computing Networking Operations - Advisory Council Member
Running FreeBSD - Real UN*X for Free!
Linda Wong/Vivian Chow/Hacken Lee/Danny Chan/Priscilla Chan Fan Club
Mailing Lists Admin
> On Wed, 10 Apr 1996, Veggy Vinny wrote:
>
> > Greetings everyone,
> >
> > I am running a few mailing lists and was wondering if anyone out
> > there would be able to run it on their machine under majordomo? Please
> > let me know. Thanks!
> >
> > Vince
> >
>
> ---------------------------
> Keith Reding, Ph.D.
> Biotechnologist
> kreding@info.aphis.usda.gov
> APHIS Mailing List Manager
> (301) 734-8365
> http://www.aphis.usda.gov/
> --------------------------
>
From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 11 19:49:53 1996
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Message-Id: <199604120121.UAA11566@schoneal.com>
Subject: Re: Mailing Lists need a home
To: kreding@info.aphis.usda.gov (Keith Reding)
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 20:21:21 -0500 (CDT)
Cc: richardc@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM,
majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM
In-Reply-To: from "Keith Reding" at Apr 11, 96 09:23:17 am
From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal)
Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal)
Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads
X-WWW-URL: http://www.schoneal.com/~meo/
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We run majordomo, and have very reasonable (we feel 8^)
fees. Small, low volume lists are only $25/year. If
you want further information, contact me via email, or
Jon Schober at 1-512-451-5531.
-Miles
---------------------------------------------------
Miles O'Neal President
meo@schoneal.com Schober O'Neal, Inc.
1011 Stobaugh St, Suite A / Austin, TX / 78757-1529
1-512-451-5531 (v) (f) 1-512-451-0513
http://www.schoneal.com/
From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 11 20:07:27 1996
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id AA25649; Thu, 11 Apr 96 19:31:32 PDT
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 96 19:31:32 PDT
From: jms@tardis.Tymnet.COM (Joe Smith)
Message-Id: <9604120231.AA25649@tardis.tymnet.com>
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, jeffw@triple-i.com
Subject: Re: mega-bounces from ix.netcom.com?
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
> I'm seeing all list subscribes that have accounts on
> ix.netcom.com bouncing back as 'user unknown'.
One of the cgi scripts I've inherited has the following:
$addr =~ tr/A-Z/a-z/;
($user,$host) = $addr =~ /(.*)\@(.*)/;
$host = "netcom.com" if $host =~ /ix.netcom.com$/;
$host = "prodigy.com" if $host =~ /prodigy.com$/;
$host = "aol.com" if $host =~ /aol.com$/;
The "ix.netcom.com" hosts are ppp hosts.
-Joe
From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 11 20:10:01 1996
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Subject: Re: Majordomo vs. SmartList
To: Bryan Fullerton
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 16:22:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: Merrill Cook
Cc: List-Managers@greatcircle.com
In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960410205330.00738dd0@home.samurai.com> from "Bryan Fullerton" at Apr 10, 96 04:53:30 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23]
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>From Bryan Fullerton:
>
> Something I've wondered about - how hard would it be to make Majordomo chop
> up a list and only feed 100 or some definable number of destination
> addresses to each copy of sendmail? One of the big problems with some
> larger lists I host (2500+ subscribers) is the amount of time to send to all
Majordomo (actually resend) only takes the note and drops it off to
sendmail.
With our mailer (mmdf) we can set it up so it pre-sorts the address list,
and we can control the number of processes actually handling the mail. Can't
sendmail do that?
--
Regards,
Merrill Cook
Louisville KY
mcook@pcusa.org or MERRILL COOK on Ecunet/PresbyNet
http://www.pcusa.org/pcusa.html
-+-
From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 11 20:13:04 1996
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From: Sheryl Coppenger
Received: by gypsy.seas.gwu.edu id AA16342; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 16:22:34 -0400
Message-Id: <9604112022.AA16342@gypsy.seas.gwu.edu>
Subject: About the magazine spam
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 16:22:33 -0400 (EDT)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23]
Content-Type: text
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Hi,
I'm unfortunately the systems administrator who currently takes care of
the email gateway at GWU, one of the sources of the three rounds of
magazine spam this year. I'm not really a hard-core email person, but
I've taken on that role since our email guy left in January (about the
time this started). My apologies for any inconvenience this has caused
people on the list. If we could stop it, we would.
It was suggested to me by a member of the list that I post here and ask
for help stopping the spam. I've read the archives for the past couple
of months and have an idea of what's been going on on the list.
We have cut off source sites, at least temporarily. Since the spammer's
attacked us from a different site each time, blocking individual sites
doesn't seem to be effective in the long term. He also likes to hit
on the weekend so that he can get more email out before he's caught.
Incidently, I had trouble getting tcpd to work with sendmail. I've been
using a route statement to prevent accepting email from sites that give us
problems. Unfortunately, the damage is done by the time I do this.
I noticed discussion in March of changing the SMTP standard. I'm kind of
frustrated at how SMTP servers "work" myself. In addition to the spam,
we also were subjected to being an MX backup site for another organization
without our permission. I won't bother to name them. They turned off
their machines for a move and their email (at least 5 times the volume of
ours) suddenly moved to our machine. Calling them up, I got a cavalier
"Oh, it will stop when the name service times out in a few hours". But
their useless sysadmin forgot they had backup name service that
didn't expire for 41 DAYS. Finally got someone at the backup site to
pull the name service records, but that took days.
Anyway, with the Internet changing as quickly as it is these days, it
seems to me foolish to have so ubiquitous an MTA as sendmail so dependent
upon "the kindness of strangers". I would love to be able to (at minimum)
say "if there's no gwu.edu in the From line and no gwu.edu in the To line,
reject it". That won't stop KrazyKevin if he ever starts forging our
addresses, but if sendmail had that feature it would have saved me a
LOT of headaches and late nights responding to email complaints over
the past few months.
I remember seeing something about qmail in one of the postings but
can't get back in to find it again. I'll look later. There was
something about a mailing list in there, but is it ftp-able? I'd like to
take a look before I decide to sign up as a beta tester. I also
had another package recommended to me which seems to have that capability,
but it seems to run only on DEC equipment so it's not a possibility for us.
--
Sheryl Coppenger SEAS Computing Facility Staff sheryl@seas.gwu.edu
The George Washington University (202) 994-6853
From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 11 22:10:37 1996
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Message-Id: <199604120457.VAA23255@dokoka>
To: Sheryl Coppenger
Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com,
"Procmail Users"
Subject: Re: About the magazine spam
Reply-To: "Alan K. Stebbens"
In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 11 Apr 1996 16:22:33 PDT.
<9604112022.AA16342@gypsy.seas.gwu.edu>
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 21:57:20 -0700
From: Alan Stebbens
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
> Anyway, with the Internet changing as quickly as it is these days, it
> seems to me foolish to have so ubiquitous an MTA as sendmail so
> dependent upon "the kindness of strangers". I would love to be able
> to (at minimum) say "if there's no gwu.edu in the From line and no
> gwu.edu in the To line, reject it". That won't stop KrazyKevin if he
> ever starts forging our addresses, but if sendmail had that feature it
> would have saved me a LOT of headaches and late nights responding to
> email complaints over the past few months.
It is not sendmail which is relying on the kindness of strangers, it is
the system manager who has failed to configure it carefully enough.
Sendmail is infinitely configurable, either by modifying its
configuration rules, or by makeing the target addresses be aliases which
filter the mail through programmable filters.
In either case, if you obtain "procmail" you will be able to implement
either pre-delivery filtering or in-delivery filtering, as desired.
Having obtained procmail, you can then use SmartList (which is a mailing
list implementation based on procmail recipe files, and a couple of
binaries). SmartList gives you control over who can see the lists, who
can subscribe, and who can submit. If you peruse the procmail archives,
you'll see many solutions for problems similar to yours.
The procmail man pages describe how to modify the sendmail rules (in
sendmail.cf) such that a pre-delivery filtering can be accomplished. In
addition, procmail can be used as the "Mlocal" (the local delivery)
program, replacing the vendor-supplied one.
With or without procmail as the "Mlocal" program, personal or
system-wide mail filter can be accomplished with procmail as a "pipe"
filter (ie: "|procmail -m /etc/procmailrcs/register").
This gives you all the "hooks" you need to be able to detect "bad" addresses
and throw any mail from them away, or cause bounce-backs, or whatever
action you choose to take.
For example, suppose the "bad guy" address who has been spamming you
uses the subject "free subscriptions", and typically originates from a
fictious sender of "KrazyKevin". A very simple filter to throw away
mail matching this description might be:
:0
* ^(From|Sender): *KrazyKevin
* ^Subject:.*free subscriptions
/dev/null
Any mail which gets past this filter, would then be delivered as usual.
If you wish to bounce rejected mail back with a message:
:0
* ^(From|Sender): *KrazyKevin
* ^Subject:.*free subscriptions
{
:0 # avoid loops
* ^X-Loop: antispam
/dev/null
SUBJ=`formail -zX'Subject:'`
:0 fh # replace the headers
| formail -rt -I"Subject: Re: $SUBJECT" -I"X-Loop: antispam"
:0 fb # replace the body
| echo "Sorry, we aren't accepting mail from you regarding" ;\
echo "this subject for the time being."
:0 # send it back & drop the mail
! -oi -t
}
The SmartList mailing list has the ability to insert site-local recipes,
such as the one above, at various processing points.
I have made available a suite of recipe files to ease or guide the
development of personal mail filters based on procmail. In addition,
you can get my enhancements to SmartList which make remote list
management easier. Both libraries are available from my home "mail" page:
http://www.engineering.ucsb.edu/~aks/mail
or by sending me an email with the subject of "send procmail library" or
"send smartlist library".
Good luck.
Alan
From list-managers-owner Fri Apr 12 03:08:56 1996
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Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 02:41:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: James Lick
To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
cc: aks@dokoka.ucsb.edu
Subject: Re: About the magazine spam
In-Reply-To: <199604120801.BAA10152@miles.greatcircle.com>
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Hello again, Alan.
> From: Alan Stebbens
> It is not sendmail which is relying on the kindness of strangers, it is
> the system manager who has failed to configure it carefully enough.
>
> Sendmail is infinitely configurable, either by modifying its
> configuration rules, or by makeing the target addresses be aliases which
> filter the mail through programmable filters.
Well, this works in many cases, but not all. In the gwu.edu case, their
sendmail is being used as a mail relay only. Neither the source nor the
target address is known ahead of time, and neither is local. If they were,
then yes it is just a matter of talking sendmail into dealing with it.
Your advice is very valuable to most list admins, however, the issues
brought up are not list issues exactly, but go back to the deficiencies
in the SMTP standard which were discussed recently. It is peripherally a
list manager's issue though in the sense that lists were the main target
of the spams sent through gwu.edu, and many of us are also general
network/system/security admins so that these issues are also of interest.
But this also brings up another point in that sendmail is very flexible at
sorting and routing and making decisions in regards to the target address.
However, it is very poor on making decisions on the source mail address or
where it received the mail from. If the message is addressed to a network
address, it never gets down to a point where procmail could filter. And
if you don't know what the target is going to be, you can't put in
specific rewrites to get it out to an alias. To deal with this you need
to modify the sendmail source to add stuff to checkcompat() and/or add in
tcp wrappers. You could also use installed host routes pointing to
nowhere but this is kinda messy.
The big problem that everyone has been grumbling quietly about is that
sendmail will happily accept mail from *anyone* on the network addressed
to *anyone* outside your system and sendmail will go deliver it. There is
no checking to say "am I really supposed to accept mail from someone at
foo.com destined for bar.edu when I don't know either of these guys?"
This promiscuity is manifesting itself more and more in the following ways:
User gets Netscape and tells it that its SMTP server is "yourcompany.com"
because their friend at yourcompany has it set up that way and had
helpfully given out copies of his config files. yourcompany happily
accepts the mail and delivers it to whereever. It works so the user is
never the wiser that it is "wrong". The sysadmin at yourcompany doesn't
notice until he gets a stange bounce for an address he's never heard of.
The sysadmin discovers that a couple dozen other people also have their
Netscape set up the same way. After trying to get them to reconfigure and
noticing that most of them haven't done anything, he finally finds the
sendmail tcp wrappers patches in Usenet and effectively makes the errant
users cease to exist.
Kevin Spamzits has a few hundred thousand messages he wants to deliver,
he saves his 28.8kbps modem the effort and dumps the messages on
seas.dept.foo.edu to deliver. seas happily accepts the messages and then
takes on the brunt of the work in delivering them. The sysadmin of seas
implements some stopgap measures to stop it, but is always one step behind
since the source keeps changing.
Randy Mango has been having a running argument on a mailing list with
another member, Buzz Turner. One day he logs in to find he has been
unsubscribed by himself. The list manager examines the unsubscribe
request and finds it was inserted at a mail server at a site closely
associated with Buzz, but also with another list member and several
non-related accounts. However, the headers point only to a hostname so
nobody knows for sure if it was Buzz, or someone setting him up.
These are three real actual examples of what is being griped about. I'd
be extremely happy if I could configure sendmail in some way such that if
it receives a network messages, it is marked as "dirty" until it is
evaluated as coming from a site we relay from, or it is evaluated as going
to a site we relay to, or it goes through a local address expansion at
which point it is marked clean. If a "dirty" message is then scheduled to
go out over a network relay, then something is wrong and it should be
punted. I'd be ecstatic if this were to make it into the sendmail
distribution and therefore implemented at many sites, adopted by vendors
(eventually), etc.
The above formula should cover all legitimate uses. Mailing lists will
still work even for raw lists, since the local address expansion would
cause the message to be marked clean. Most sites can define legitimate
hosts or domains or IPs they will relay to/from. If there are other
problem areas, I'm sure they can be worked in.
Now, as was concluded in the March discussion, this goes against some of
the standards and also the good old Internet spirit. However, standards
are not static; we can change them if the reasons are good enough. I
believe that this change is very important to the sites which have been
victim of this problem. I think that the problem will only grow as more
and more people get on the net and more and more newbies who don't know
any better and opportunistic spammers take advantage of these problems.
Just these few little changes would cut down on a lot of forged mail and
make it easier to track the remainder. And about that Internet spirit
thing, well, it's a faint ghost of what it once was, and I fear the last
of it is already slipping away.
-- James Lick -- jlick@tcp.com -- http://drivel.com/jlick/ --
From list-managers-owner Fri Apr 12 10:03:34 1996
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From: "Brad Knowles"
Message-Id: <9604121254.ZM10446@azathoth.ops.aol.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 12:54:54 -0400
In-Reply-To: Sheryl Coppenger
"About the magazine spam" (Apr 11, 4:22pm)
References: <9604112022.AA16342@gypsy.seas.gwu.edu>
Reply-To: BKnowles@aol.net
Organization: America Online, Inc.
X-Telephone: (703) 453-4148
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To: Sheryl Coppenger
Subject: Re: About the magazine spam
Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
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On Apr 11, 4:22pm, Sheryl Coppenger wrote:
> I noticed discussion in March of changing the SMTP standard. I'm kind of
> frustrated at how SMTP servers "work" myself. In addition to the spam,
> we also were subjected to being an MX backup site for another organization
> without our permission. I won't bother to name them. They turned off
> their machines for a move and their email (at least 5 times the volume of
> ours) suddenly moved to our machine. Calling them up, I got a cavalier
> "Oh, it will stop when the name service times out in a few hours". But
> their useless sysadmin forgot they had backup name service that
> didn't expire for 41 DAYS. Finally got someone at the backup site to
> pull the name service records, but that took days.
Take any mail that comes into your site for a domain like that and
bounce it. They'll quickly figure out that they really don't want to
use you as an unadvertised backup MX.
Sendmail re-write rules to do this sort of stuff are fairly easy,
and I've done them not only at my previous employer but also here.
I'll be documenting better the kinds of things you can do and making
that available in the comp.mail.sendmail FAQ.
Make sure you also tell them that you'll call the InterNIC and
have their domain registration pulled if they don't act *immediately*.
> Anyway, with the Internet changing as quickly as it is these days, it
> seems to me foolish to have so ubiquitous an MTA as sendmail so dependent
> upon "the kindness of strangers". I would love to be able to (at minimum)
> say "if there's no gwu.edu in the From line and no gwu.edu in the To line,
> reject it". That won't stop KrazyKevin if he ever starts forging our
> addresses, but if sendmail had that feature it would have saved me a
> LOT of headaches and late nights responding to email complaints over
> the past few months.
This is a bit harder to do. Basically, the only place in all of
sendmail that you have access to both the sender and recipient names
is in the check_compat() routine. If you read the sendmail
documentation or the book _sendmail_ by Bryan Costales, they give you
skeletons of how you could refuse to be a mail relay for anyone.
Unfortunately, those skeletons really need to be fleshed out. I've
heard of at least one project on the 'net for doing something like
that and making it available to the readers of comp.mail.sendmail, but
I don't have any details.
> I remember seeing something about qmail in one of the postings but
> can't get back in to find it again. I'll look later. There was
> something about a mailing list in there, but is it ftp-able? I'd like to
> take a look before I decide to sign up as a beta tester. I also
> had another package recommended to me which seems to have that capability,
> but it seems to run only on DEC equipment so it's not a possibility for us.
Making modifications to check_compat() does require that you be
able to program in C. From what I can gather, making modifications to
most any part of qmail also requires that you program in C.
Personally, I'd rather make minor sendmail.cf rewrite rule changes and
support those with rare C source-level changes.
--
Brad Knowles MIME/PGP: BKnowles@aol.net
Mail Systems Administrator
for America Online, Inc. Ph: (703) 453-4148
PGP keys available from pgp-public-keys@pgp.ai.mit.edu
From list-managers-owner Fri Apr 12 10:03:43 1996
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From: Sheryl Coppenger
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Message-Id: <9604121600.AA06084@gypsy.seas.gwu.edu>
Subject: Re: About the magazine spam
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 12:00:16 -0400 (EDT)
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>
> It is not sendmail which is relying on the kindness of strangers, it is
> the system manager who has failed to configure it carefully enough.
>
> Sendmail is infinitely configurable, either by modifying its
> configuration rules, or by makeing the target addresses be aliases which
> filter the mail through programmable filters.
>
> In either case, if you obtain "procmail" you will be able to implement
> either pre-delivery filtering or in-delivery filtering, as desired.
>
> Having obtained procmail, you can then use SmartList (which is a mailing
> list implementation based on procmail recipe files, and a couple of
> binaries). SmartList gives you control over who can see the lists, who
> can subscribe, and who can submit. If you peruse the procmail archives,
> you'll see many solutions for problems similar to yours.
The technical part about how this solution doesn't really work and is
appropriate for list management rather than an email gateway was handled
in another followup so I'll leave that be.
Even if this did the job technically I'd be concerned because I'd be
examining subject lines and rejecting for content. The legal aspects
are rather untested and still to be determined, but the laws that have
been passed seem to leave systems administrators in a "damned if you
do, damned if you don't" situation. If I don't examine content I *may*
be in trouble for passing on things people don't want to get. If I
do examine and reject for content I'm almost certainly more liable
because it somehow implies a promise. If the next spam changes a
couple of letters and slips through the filter I may be liable. There
are a couple of articles in this month's ";login:" magazine about that.
It's probably not a concern for list managers, but it's probably in my
interests to try and posture as a common carrier although it's by
no means obvious whether ISPs can claim that.
If I could simply reject mail that tried to use me as a relay, although
it might be a breech of SMTP standard I doubt that it would get me
sued. I could be wrong.
BTW, does anybody but me see a little irony in saying that sendmail
is infinitely configurable, then saying in the same breath that I need
to get two more packages to configure it? I'm reminded of a conversation
I had with a UNIX guru back in the 80s when I first started using
UNIX. He asked how it was going and I said it was OK but UNIX didn't
seem to be very intuitive compared to some other operating systems I'd
worked on. He said, "I thought that too when I first started using it,
but after 6 or 7 years it seems pretty intuitive". The worst part is,
he wasn't kidding. :-)
I'm not putting the poster down, I do appreciate suggestions and I know
that the reality of doing computer work is you do have to cobble a lot
of things together sometimes to get a solution. Using procmail and
smartmail does seem to work well for a lot of people in a lot of situations.
I just don't think this is one of them.
--
Sheryl Coppenger SEAS Computing Facility Staff sheryl@seas.gwu.edu
The George Washington University (202) 994-6853
From list-managers-owner Fri Apr 12 10:18:00 1996
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From: "Brad Knowles"
Message-Id: <9604121303.ZM10475@azathoth.ops.aol.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 13:03:39 -0400
In-Reply-To: James Lick
"Re: About the magazine spam" (Apr 12, 2:41am)
References:
Reply-To: BKnowles@aol.net
Organization: America Online, Inc.
X-Telephone: (703) 453-4148
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To: James Lick
Subject: Re: About the magazine spam
Cc: aks@dokoka.ucsb.edu, List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
On Apr 12, 2:41am, James Lick wrote:
> These are three real actual examples of what is being griped about. I'd
> be extremely happy if I could configure sendmail in some way such that if
> it receives a network messages, it is marked as "dirty" until it is
> evaluated as coming from a site we relay from, or it is evaluated as going
> to a site we relay to, or it goes through a local address expansion at
> which point it is marked clean.
There's another way to fix the list-managers part of this problem.
Once you're subscribed, require that unsubscribe requests come in
cryptographically signed (maybe only if the original request was
cryptographically signed). For those "insecure" subscriptions, give
the user a password that they can change (and hopefully remember), but
that have to be used any time they want to change their subscription
status on the list (i.e., they could probably change from digest mode
to reflector mode without requiring the password, but setting "NOMAIL"
would require the password).
As for the relay problem, I think the key is to be able to set a
database that defines domains that you choose to relay to and/or from
(or choose not to relay to and/or from, as the case may be), and then
build into check_compat() the necessary robust code to enforce those
rules.
Combine these, and I think you deal with the majority of the spam
and velveeta generated today. Then you get to have fun with junkmail
and people who forge bogus headers so that they don't ever have to
worry about dealing with any of their bounces or the expensive job of
cleaning up their mailing list.
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--
Brad Knowles MIME/PGP: BKnowles@aol.net
Mail Systems Administrator
for America Online, Inc. Ph: (703) 453-4148
PGP keys available from pgp-public-keys@pgp.ai.mit.edu
From list-managers-owner Fri Apr 12 11:20:34 1996
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I am getting messages regarding this subscriber at AOL who has a full mailbox.
>The mail you sent could not be delivered to:
>552 arlw@aol.com has a full mailbox
You all probably know about AOL's message regarding full mailboxes. When we
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Date: Fri, 12 Apr 96 08:49:43 EST
From: "Jim Meritt"
Message-Id: <9603128293.AA829324381@smtpinet.aspensys.com>
To: sheryl@seas.gwu.edu, "Alan K. Stebbens"
Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, procmail@informatik.rwth-aachen.de
Subject: sendmail (was Re[2]: About the magazine spam
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
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Most of them wrong..... :-(
Jim Meritt
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: About the magazine spam
Author: "Alan K. Stebbens" at SMTPINET
Date: 4/12/96 5:42 AM
It is not sendmail which is relying on the kindness of strangers, it is
the system manager who has failed to configure it carefully enough.
Sendmail is infinitely configurable, either by modifying its
configuration rules, or by makeing the target addresses be aliases which
filter the mail through programmable filters.
From list-managers-owner Fri Apr 12 11:21:29 1996
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From: srb@cuci.nl (Stephen R. van den Berg)
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 15:44:19 +0200
In-Reply-To: James Lick's message as of 1996 Apr 12 Fri 2:41.
To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: About the magazine spam
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James Lick wrote:
>But this also brings up another point in that sendmail is very flexible at
>sorting and routing and making decisions in regards to the target address.
>However, it is very poor on making decisions on the source mail address or
>where it received the mail from. If the message is addressed to a network
>address, it never gets down to a point where procmail could filter. And
Well, it could, but it would take an extra route through a procmail filter
and then back into sendmail.
>if you don't know what the target is going to be, you can't put in
>specific rewrites to get it out to an alias. To deal with this you need
>to modify the sendmail source to add stuff to checkcompat() and/or add in
No. Not quite. Actually, sendmail already *is* capable of discerning based
on sender addresses (and/or combined sender/recipient decisions). It just
takes some sendmail.cf rules (no sendmail source modifications required).
I'm currently working something out to that effect.
--
Sincerely, srb@cuci.nl
Stephen R. van den Berg (AKA BuGless).
Be braver. You cannot cross a chasm in two small jumps.
From list-managers-owner Fri Apr 12 13:11:49 1996
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To: rfrench@teleport.com
Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: Subscriber not here
Reply-To: tibbs@uh.edu
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 12 Apr 1996 07:56:17 -0700 (PDT)"
References: <199604121456.HAA04491@desiree.teleport.com>
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Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 13:47:41 -0500
From: Jason L Tibbitts III
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>>>>> "RF" == Rae French writes:
RF> But this person/subscriber is _not_ subscribed to my mailing list. Is
RF> there anything I can do to get this message to stop coming to me?
Look through the Received: headers in the message that AOL bounced. (I
sure wish they'd use the MIME bounce formats.) These tell you where the
message went before it got to AOL. If it didn't go straight from you to
AOL, someone's set up a .forward file or the like and is redirecting the
mail. Find all users on your list from each machine between you and AOL
and send them a short test message with their username somewhere in the
Subject:. Delete the user that bounces.
--
Jason L. Tibbitts III - tibbs@uh.edu - 713/743-8684 - 221SR1
System Manager: University of Houston High Performance Computing Center
1994 PC800 "Kuroneko" DoD# 1723
From list-managers-owner Fri Apr 12 13:19:54 1996
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Reply-To: ckk@uchicago.edu
From: ckk@uchicago.edu
To: Sheryl Coppenger
cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Subject: Re: About the magazine spam
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 11 Apr 1996 16:22:33 EDT."
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Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 14:08:19 -0500
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Sheryl asked for help in configuring Sendmail to close off the loopholes that Krazy Kevin uses to inject forged mail, through her system, out to the rest of the Internet.
Alan Stebbens suggested that the solution is not in Sendmail but rather in the "procmail" local delivery agent. The problem is that his solution only works on the final delivery machine. Meanwhile the message has been accepted somewhere, forwarded elsewhere, passing through intermediate systems, taking up your processor time, disk space, etc.
Sheryl is trying to cut it off at the source, have the SMTP listener reject transactions during the dialog. The message is not accepted, not stored in your queue, not passed on to anywhere else. She can save the rest of us a lot of work by cutting Krazy Kevin's messages off at the source (until he moves on to a new victim server next week, of course :-).
I have been experimenting with this a bit lately, I've just taken suggestions I found on Usenet newsgroups about how to reject specific strings in MAIL FROM or RCPT TO fields, which is very easy now using Sendmail v8.7.X m4 macros.
That is, for a string "XXX" that I know in advance, I can have Sendmail refuse to even allow the incoming SMTP transaction, if the message is either RCPT TO "XXX" or MAIL FROM "XXX" in the SMTP dialogue. (note that this only concerns the envelope fields in the SMTP dialogue, and does NOT involve the HEADERS of the message at all)
What's a bit harder, what Sheryl wants to do, is reject any message EXCEPT those containing her specific known string "gwu.edu" in the MAIL FROM and/or RCPT TO.
I'll be doing some more Sendmail experimenting and if I come up with a very simple prescription, I'll get back to you.
Chris Koenigsberg
U. of Chicago Academic Computing Services Postmaster
ckk@uchicago.edu (also postmaster@uchicago.edu)
Meanwhile, to reject mail CONTAINING a specific known string, here's a simple sequence to add to the end of your m4 macro that you generate your sendmail.cf from. Create the file "/etc/sendmail.reject-strings" (or name it whatever you want, and put the name in the "FK" line) and fill it with the specific strings that you want to reject. Then add this to the end of your m4 macro:
LOCAL_CONFIG
FK/etc/sendmail.unconfigured-addresses
LOCAL_RULE_0
R$*$=K$* $#error$@77$:Mail to and from this address is not accepted by this server.
--------------------------------------------------------------
From list-managers-owner Fri Apr 12 13:33:12 1996
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From: Sheryl Coppenger
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Subject: Re: About the magazine spam
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 14:56:48 -0400 (EDT)
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>
> Take any mail that comes into your site for a domain like that and
> bounce it. They'll quickly figure out that they really don't want to
> use you as an unadvertised backup MX.
>
> Sendmail re-write rules to do this sort of stuff are fairly easy,
> and I've done them not only at my previous employer but also here.
> I'll be documenting better the kinds of things you can do and making
> that available in the comp.mail.sendmail FAQ.
Great. It's not something I need right now, but I look forward to seeing
it. As I said in the first email, I'm not by training or inclination an
email person. I'm filling in for a person who took another job (who we
haven't been able to replace yet). Unfortunately the work I already was
doing did not go away when I took over his tasks. I have the Nutshell
Sendmail book and though I've spent some time with it, it's going to
take me quite a while to deal with the learning curve and to be able to
deal with an 800-page book (plus the RFC and sendmail docs, let alone the
code).
> This is a bit harder to do. Basically, the only place in all of
> sendmail that you have access to both the sender and recipient names
> is in the check_compat() routine. If you read the sendmail
> documentation or the book _sendmail_ by Bryan Costales, they give you
> skeletons of how you could refuse to be a mail relay for anyone.
> Unfortunately, those skeletons really need to be fleshed out. I've
> heard of at least one project on the 'net for doing something like
> that and making it available to the readers of comp.mail.sendmail, but
> I don't have any details.
Thanks for the pointer to checkcompat(). I was able to look it up in
the Nutshell book. That's exactly the kind of specific info I've been
looking for for a couple of months. Instead I've generally been getting
vague "you can do anything in sendmail" responses and then nothing when
I ask for details. Or I get a flat "you can't get there from here".
I've been kind of surprised by this because in the 5 years I've been on
the 'net I've often received (and given) detailed "this is exactly how
I did it" responses to folks. I've become rather frustrated because of
this difference in the sendmail area. Maybe it's something in the
sendmail gestalt, maybe I've just had bad luck with when and whom I've
asked. Even a pointer to something I can look up in an index in the
Nutshell book at least gives me something to work with and I'm grateful.
I probably missed it while going through the book because I had "relay"
in my mind and "gateway" didn't key for me.
[...]
> Making modifications to check_compat() does require that you be
> able to program in C. From what I can gather, making modifications to
> most any part of qmail also requires that you program in C.
> Personally, I'd rather make minor sendmail.cf rewrite rule changes and
> support those with rare C source-level changes.
>
I can program in C. I also figured that being a beta tester for qmail
would involve C programming but apparently what I want already is defined
in the code and maybe it's worthwhile to look at a new approach (similar
to the way we've migrated from Bnews to Cnews to INN over the years on
the news server). If I can avoid it I prefer not to hack on packages
which are large, important to our mission and poorly understood by me. :-)
My sendmail debugging skills are pretty minimal at this point. Since
it doesn't look like we're going to be filling the empty position any
time soon I have the feeling I will be developing them when the semester
ends in a few weeks and I'm no longer trying to do 12 hours a week of
classes in addition to the full-time job. I had already decided I was
probably going to have to install the latest sendmail on my workstation
this summer and just bang on it until I have some confidence in how it
works. That still looks like the plan, I'll just have to add a
checkcompat routine to my TO DO list for when I do it.
Thanks again for the pointer.
--
Sheryl Coppenger SEAS Computing Facility Staff sheryl@seas.gwu.edu
The George Washington University (202) 994-6853
From list-managers-owner Fri Apr 12 13:51:22 1996
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Date: 12 Apr 1996 19:51:21 GMT
Message-ID: <19960412195121.10669.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov>
From: Dave Sill
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: About the magazine spam
In-Reply-To: <9604121254.ZM10446@azathoth.ops.aol.com>
References: <9604112022.AA16342@gypsy.seas.gwu.edu>
<9604121254.ZM10446@azathoth.ops.aol.com>
X-Mailer: VM Version 5.95 (beta) with XEmacs 19.13 of Fri Sep 1 1995 on sgi0 (irix) [formerly Lucid Emacs]
Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA
X-Face: "p~Q]mg{;e*}YR|)&Q/&Q\*~5UWfZX34;5M wrote:
>On Apr 11, 4:22pm, Sheryl Coppenger wrote:
>
>> I remember seeing something about qmail in one of the postings but
>> can't get back in to find it again. I'll look later. There was
>> something about a mailing list in there, but is it ftp-able? I'd like to
>> take a look before I decide to sign up as a beta tester.
Yes, you can FTP the qmail beta distribution without signing up to the
beta tester list. It's at:
ftp://koobera.math.uic.edu/pub/software/qmail-0.74.tar.gz
But you really should join the beta tester's list: it's not overly
busy.
> Making modifications to check_compat() does require that you be
>able to program in C. From what I can gather, making modifications to
>most any part of qmail also requires that you program in C.
Yes, hacking the qmail code requires hacking the C source. The same is
true for sendmail. If there's something you'd like to do with qmail
that you think would require that, post it to the beta tester's
list. If it's a worthwhile feature, Dan will most likely add it to the
next release. But qmail is sufficiently powerful and configurable that
you can do most common tasks without source code hacks.
Disabling the forwarding of mail to third parties, for example, is
trivial in qmail.
>Personally, I'd rather make minor sendmail.cf rewrite rule changes and
>support those with rare C source-level changes.
I'd rather use built-in capabilities than have to craft my own.
-Dave
From list-managers-owner Fri Apr 12 16:41:26 1996
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From: tsarna@endicor.com (Ty Sarna)
Subject: Re: About the magazine spam
Message-Id:
Organization: Endicor Technologies, Inc., San Antonio, Texas
References: <9604112022.AA16342@gypsy.seas.gwu.edu> <9604121254.ZM10446@azathoth.ops.aol.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 22:32:08 GMT
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In article <9604121254.ZM10446@azathoth.ops.aol.com>,
Brad Knowles wrote:
> On Apr 11, 4:22pm, Sheryl Coppenger wrote:
>
> > [Another domain used her system(s) as an MX without permission]
>
> Take any mail that comes into your site for a domain like that and
> bounce it. They'll quickly figure out that they really don't want to
> use you as an unadvertised backup MX.
Gee Brad, you're a much nicer guy than I am! Me, I'd accept the mail and
silently discard it :^)
From list-managers-owner Fri Apr 12 18:17:19 1996
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From: "Brad Knowles"
Message-Id: <9604122106.ZM1419@azathoth.ops.aol.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 21:06:07 -0400
In-Reply-To: Sheryl Coppenger
"Re: About the magazine spam" (Apr 12, 2:56pm)
References: <9604121856.AA12472@gypsy.seas.gwu.edu>
Reply-To: BKnowles@aol.net
Organization: America Online, Inc.
X-Telephone: (703) 453-4148
X-Telefacsimile: (703) 453-4005
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To: Sheryl Coppenger