If classic mode were available to play within duels and also realms, there would be a higher likelihood of retaining players who prefer classic mode within the game as a whole.

I might be wrong in this, but I would also imagine that opening up other game modes to classic mode would be a relatively small scale change to make, whilst resources are diverted towards Pheonix Point.

If players can choose whether to play a realm in full classic mode (i.e., forcing the AI to compete in classic mode, too), then players should be able to choose the level of AI they'll face in the realm, too.

Also a consideration, many realm designers choose the equipment and talismans of the realm's wizard lords and kings to reinforce the themes and stories of the realm. Allowing players to edit away such content from realms undermines the creative voice of realm designers.

Easier perhaps to allow classic mode everywhere by making classic equipment available to players, so players can choose to play classically in equipped modes without removing equipped options from the AI or other players.

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One Theme to rule them all, One Theme to find them, One Theme to bring them all and in the Chaos bind them.NoWorries plays as Baldr, God of Wonder & Progress | Compete together with Baldr in the Order of Baldrlux

NoWorries wrote:If players can choose whether to play a realm in full classic mode (i.e., forcing the AI to compete in classic mode, too), then players should be able to choose the level of AI they'll face in the realm, too.

Also a consideration, many realm designers choose the equipment and talismans of the realm's wizard lords and kings to reinforce the themes and stories of the realm. Allowing players to edit away such content from realms undermines the creative voice of realm designers.

You argument against allowing the player to choose to play through a realm in classic mode on the basis that it undermines the creative voice of realm designers is also an argument against allowing players to choose the level of AI that they'll face in the realm. You've in effect contradicted yourself within a single post.

The different between the two however, is that whilst realm designers can create a realm where they set the AI level, realm designers are not able to create a realm which is designed to be played in classic mode.

At present:

At present players who want to play realms against low level AI in equipped mode have that option. Players who want to play realms against high level AI in equipped mode have that option. Realm designers who want to make realms with low level AI have that option.And realm designers who want to make realms with high level AI have that option.

But players who want to play realms in classic mode do not have that option. And realm designers who want to make realms in classic mode do not have that option.

It is the first of these that I'm suggesting as an easy change to make. I'd love for the 2nd to be available as well, as there would be then more on an incentive for classic mode player to create realms as well as to play them

NoWorries wrote:Easier perhaps to allow classic mode everywhere by making classic equipment available to players, so players can choose to play classically in equipped modes without removing equipped options from the AI or other players.

No, because then the match wouldn't be played in classic mode. It would a wizard using classic gear vs a wizard using equipped gear, and that it not the request which is being made here at all.

SpiteAndMalice wrote:You argument against allowing the player to choose to play through a realm in classic mode on the basis that it undermines the creative voice of realm designers is also an argument against allowing players to choose the level of AI that they'll face in the realm. You've in effect contradicted yourself within a single post.

I don't disagree with your first sentence, except I will clarify that I was not attempting to make an argument; rather, I was attempting to make observations, provide critiques, and proffer suggestions. I disagree with your second sentence.

My first paragraph said, essentially, if players can choose to re-write realms to experience only Classic gameplay, then players should also be able to re-rewrite realms to play against the AI difficulty level they prefer. I was only advocating player control over AI difficulty if players could re-write realms to experience only classic-equipped opponents. In other words, the rationale for enabling one option also is a rationale to enable the other option.

My second paragraph critiqued the ability of players to re-write realms to redact the equipment that realm designers may have allotted AI-controlled opponents due to theme or plot considerations. I agree that a similar critique can be levied on players being able to edit the difficulty level of AIs (though theme and plot points are less likely to be at issue). But again, I only mentioned in the first paragraph that if players get the power to wipe a Realm designer's equipment selection, then the same rationale for doing so should be used to justify players preempting the AI difficulty selected by realm designers.

My suggestion in the third paragraph was offered as a compromise.

I hope that clarifies my statements. If not, then I'm happy to clarify further.

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One Theme to rule them all, One Theme to find them, One Theme to bring them all and in the Chaos bind them.NoWorries plays as Baldr, God of Wonder & Progress | Compete together with Baldr in the Order of Baldrlux

NoWorries wrote:Easier perhaps to allow classic mode everywhere by making classic equipment available to players, so players can choose to play classically in equipped modes without removing equipped options from the AI or other players.

No, because then the match wouldn't be played in classic mode. It would a wizard using classic gear vs a wizard using equipped gear, and that it not the request which is being made here at all.

With this compromise, realm matches could be fought purely in classic mode if realm designers choose to equip the realms Lords and King with classic equipment.

If the onus is on empowering players to make their own choices, good to remember that realm designers have agency over their choices, too. At least this has in the past been the primary argument as to why players should not be able to change the AI difficulty level from the default set by the realm's designer. If the rationale for empowering the realm designer's choices over the realm explorer's preferences is withdrawn for one game mechanic, then let's see it withdrawn on all.

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One Theme to rule them all, One Theme to find them, One Theme to bring them all and in the Chaos bind them.NoWorries plays as Baldr, God of Wonder & Progress | Compete together with Baldr in the Order of Baldrlux

I understand what you're saying, but you're still contradicting yourself, and your compromise is not a compromise.

The only way a classic mode player would get to play a realm in classic mode would be if that player selected classic equipment for themselves, and the realm designer sets all matches within that realm to classic mode. Moreover the classic mode player would need to be able to see in advance that the realm they are entering only contains classic mode battles.

Player want to play classic mode - Realm is equipped = It's an equipped battle.Player wants to play classic mode - Realm is classic = It's a classic battle.

The classic made player never turns a realm that is designed in equipped mode into a realm that contains classic battles, the realm designer's vision is never discarded.

Player wants to play equipped - Realm is equipped = It's an equipped battle. Player wants to play equipped - Realm is classic = It's still an equipped battle.

The equipped mode player always turns a realm that is designed in classic mode into a realm that contains equipped battles, the realm designer's vision is discarded every time an equipped mode player comes along.

On the other hand, you're saying that the player should be able to choose the AI level wholesale.

Player wants a level 1 AI opponent - Realm is designed to be level 12 - The player gets a Level 1 AI opponent, and the realm designer's vision is discarded in every instance. Player wants a level 12 AI opponent - Realm is designer to be level 1 - The player gets a level 12 AI opponent, and again the realm designer's vision is discarded in every instance.

Anyway, there's probably been enough semantics argued in this thread by now that even if the devs have read the OP then they won't go beyond this point, to which I think I'll just give up on the whole idea of ever being able to enjoy playing realms.

SpiteAndMalice wrote:Anyway, there's probably been enough semantics argued in this thread by now that even if the devs have read the OP then they won't go beyond this point, to which I think I'll just give up on the whole idea of ever being able to enjoy playing realms.

Proposed deal:

If you back my idea that players should be able to set the AI difficulty level for any realm to preempt the default set by the realm's designers, then I'll back your idea that players should be able to preempt a designers choice of equipment in realms by changing all battles to classic mode.

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One Theme to rule them all, One Theme to find them, One Theme to bring them all and in the Chaos bind them.NoWorries plays as Baldr, God of Wonder & Progress | Compete together with Baldr in the Order of Baldrlux

SpiteAndMalice wrote:Anyway, there's probably been enough semantics argued in this thread by now that even if the devs have read the OP then they won't go beyond this point, to which I think I'll just give up on the whole idea of ever being able to enjoy playing realms.

Proposed deal:

If you back my idea that players should be able to set the AI difficulty level for any realm to preempt the default set by the realm's designers, then I'll back your idea that players should be able to preempt a designers choice of equipment in realms by changing all battles to classic mode.

I'm not into politicking, and I say this with the best possible respect NW, but it really annoys me when you put forward suggestions such as this. - From my perspective either an idea is worth pursuing, or it isn't. To that end I'll happily discuss any idea on its own merit, if I think something is a good idea, then I'll support it; if I think that it is a bad idea, then I won't support it, but please don't ask me to trade ideas off.

If you're against realms being played in classic mode then fine, that's your prerogative. I don't think that the player setting the AI level for realms is a good idea full stop, if you think it is, then again that's your prerogative.

But if you're trying to block an idea just in order to put your own idea forward and gain my support on it, then the danger is there that you're just stopping improvements being made, and if so then that is to the determent of CR as a whole.