I'm glad that you found this concept useful. As it is somewhat ad hoc, I am open to suggestions for change. Sometimes I use half-steps, e.g. 3-1/2. Among other things, this was handy for toning down my pdoc by reporting low numbers for a while.

Somebody once wanted to add "involuntarily suicidal" - things like compulsive crazy driving or other reckless acts. It was a good point, but I couldn't figure out how to add that without making it too complicated.

I have been to 5 on a couple of occasions, both of them immediately before I was first diagnosed. I guess I'm a little different from most people in that 6,7& 8 aren't even on the radar for me. I just can't grasp the concept of a failed attempt. I have no fear of death, but the prospect of something like getting maimed in an accident where I lose a limb or wind up paralyzed is the most horrifying thing I can think of. I guess that's why 6, 7&8 don't apply to me. Every ideation I've ever had has been absolutely foolproof. For me, if I ever get past 5 (and I have no doubt that I will), it'll be straight to 9.

Without knowing what your foolproof methods are, and indeed they may well be foolproof, I want to point out that somethings should kill you and don't. I should have died both times and very nearly did the first. When I tell doctors what I took the second time, they are always surprised that I didn't die.

So part of what has to be faced is that your body doesn't want to die and will fight you on this point.

I'm not saying it can't be made foolproof, just that it's not as clearcut as it seems from this side.

i think one problem with this scale is just that its just a scale...and an arbitary one at that, for instance is it linear..is 2 twice as high as 1? and so on..While I think such a scale is useful to a certain degree, really i thinkany suicidal thoughts however much they seem at '1" or 2 or whatever are a serious sign that someone or you reading this maybe needs help. often suicidal thoughts start off at 'level one" for example and then rapidly progress to stager 7 or above....they did with me,one minute i was wondering whether I should do somthing risky whn i was out and about, the next minute i was making detailed plans.Thing is i didnt see anything abnormal in a making such plans or having such strong STs, that and being totally impulsive by nature was a recipe for disaster with out medical intervention.
so if you feel at any of these levels , please talk to someone about how you feel, I did and it really helped.

I think one problem with this scale is just that it’s just a scale...and an arbitrary one at that.

Quite true, Debra, my disclaimer should have been more detailed.

For instance, is it linear? Is 2 twice as high as 1?

No, the numbers are ordinal. All I meant to say is that ideating (4) is further down the road than feeling suicidal (3).

You might think of this scale as an illustrated starting point from which each person may craft one’s own. I just tried to include all the steps that I had heard of, and sequence them in a rational way. If you never ideate, then (4) is not a meaningful step for you. Others like using notations like “3˝”.

Also, these steps are not processes, but “markers”. I might notice that I only get to (5) in a small percentage of the times that I reach (4), while another may find that (4) almost always leads to (5). Conclusion? Ideating is relatively safe for me, but may not be for the next person.

In any case, the concept is not offered as knowledge or information, but as a sometimes convenient procedure.

I personally use it as a way to “take my temperature” (“how suicidal am I now as compared to times in the past?”). Others might find other ways to use something like this.

So, thanks for pointing out the need for greater clarity in the way that this is presented. May we all lead long and happy lives.

I looked at this list a while ago and actually even spoke to a friend about it. I wanted to know someone's perspective- someone who has never suffered from depression- she's never had a suicidal thought in her life so has never made it to number 1 on the list.
I, on the other hand, always have a plan. Its scary sometimes to know that in the back of my mind there's always means for active escape. Does that mean I live permanently at number 5?
I guess for me I'm always actively fighting the plan although sometimes, I think about it more obsessively than other times- i.e. the active roll out of my plan.
For me there would be no steps between 5 and 9...if I ever carried out the plan, I would be at number 9.
My saving grace is the fact I've tried and failed before and I've spoken about my thoughts to my therapist- however I have found speaking about them doesn't stop them. But the power to act on it all, lies with me and the line between action and no action is very fine.
More than depression, it is the suicidal ideation that is my biggest battle and other than my therapist I have shared this with no one.
I have 'suicidal thoughts' on a daily basis. I hate them and, yes, I do fight them...but in fighting them, sometimes my energy wears thin...
I wish there was a button to switch those thoughts off, to not live with an active plan but there isn't and perhaps only in therapy and with years and years of cognitive thinking changes will I achieve freedom from the black cloud that oppresses me daily.
So I guess, judging by this list, I'm always at number 5 but my will power drifts from 1 to 4.

I looked at this list a while ago and actually even spoke to a friend about it. I wanted to know someone's perspective- someone who has never suffered from depression- she's never had a suicidal thought in her life so has never made it to number 1 on the list.I, on the other hand, always have a plan. Its scary sometimes to know that in the back of my mind there's always means for active escape. Does that mean I live permanently at number 5? I guess for me I'm always actively fighting the plan although sometimes, I think about it more obsessively than other times- i.e. the active roll out of my plan. For me there would be no steps between 5 and 9...if I ever carried out the plan, I would be at number 9. My saving grace is the fact I've tried and failed before and I've spoken about my thoughts to my therapist- however I have found speaking about them doesn't stop them. But the power to act on it all, lies with me and the line between action and no action is very fine. More than depression, it is the suicidal ideation that is my biggest battle and other than my therapist I have shared this with no one. I have 'suicidal thoughts' on a daily basis. I hate them and, yes, I do fight them...but in fighting them, sometimes my energy wears thin...I wish there was a button to switch those thoughts off, to not live with an active plan but there isn't and perhaps only in therapy and with years and years of cognitive thinking changes will I achieve freedom from the black cloud that oppresses me daily.So I guess, judging by this list, I'm always at number 5 but my will power drifts from 1 to 4.

I agree with a lot that you said there, forestfairy. I always have a plan there in the background, I know what I would do should I ever need it. But right now, I'm not suicidal. I sometime ponder on death, thinking that maybe it would be easier then life etc, but I've always done that. but equally, I've never tried seriously, really meant it. Only a few "lame attempts" more gestures than anything else about the pain I was in rather than really wanting to do it. I've often wondered whether I use it to make me feel more in control, I can make myself stop at the crucial moment, because i don't really mean it, but does anyone else know that? It's a bit sick, really, and certainly not something I'm proud of. It strikes me as me being manipulative rather than anything else, but i guess I'm only taking things so far because I'm in so much pain. It's not something i do all that often, nor is it something I've done for a while. I've never really examined my thoughts and attitudes to suicide, I never had a therapist with whom I could discuss it. I mean, one lame attempt had everyone wanting to shut me up and throw away the key, the only one who did understand was the pdoc and unfortunately, I could never really communicate with him. he obviously understood me and why i did things, though.

As for passive suicide, that again is something I always used to do and still do at times. Taking unnecessary risks crossing roads is something i do all the time, even now, and it scares my friends senseless, but it's nothing more than a risk, I'm not purposely walking out in front of cars on a motorway.

How does all this translate into your levels, Rick? Hope you know because I don't know! I don't even find thinking about suicide that unwelcome, it's kind of become my comfort blanket, knowing I could escape if I need to but equally I've not really got any bad memories to associate with the thoughts. i guess i oscillate up and down the scale from day to day, from 1 to 5 as time goes by.

Having just re-read this post, it seems a bit scary, shouldn't I be afraid? or does it just mean I'm able to cope? I seem to have rambled a bit, but I've decided to leave it, I don't often write about suicide so maybe it's good to get things down every once in a while.

I think I'm about a 4.99. I think about it all the time and even thought If I payed someone to kill me than my wife could collect the life insurance to help her pay off my medical debt. I sold my bike for 1k and asked around but no one would even consider it. I also think that then God would'nt send me to hell for suicide.
And since I am already in hell, I don't need a new hell. But if God knows I'm suffering why would he make me suffer more?
He is suposed to be loving and all forgiving. I've prayed to God to kill me anyway he see's fit. But here I am still. Jobless, in debt, insuranceless and still in hell on earth. And now I'm blacklisted from the clinic because I can't pay them. So If I get sick tough shit.

I highly highly doubt that your wife would trade you for any amount of $. You would *not* be doing her a favor by killing yourself $.

Are there any free clinics in your area? When I really had trouble in school (incl. ST) there was a mental health clinic that was run by the county (I think), and they saw people on a sliding scale based on income. The fee was as low as $5. There are apparently also programs where one can get free meds from the pharm. companies.

hang in there. Depression makes us think things will never get better. It likely could be a long haul, and no guarentees, but things *could* get better.

In a small nutshell, for as far back as I can remember, I've always hovered between a 4 and a 5. Consciously and subconsciously I guess. I'm not very good with explaining how I feel, so reading from what someone has written a few posts ago, I gather that feeling like this .... is perhaps best compared to an eating disorder, or an addiction. But in the sense that mentally there is such little control over the thought process and the continuous compulsion to look at everything in the world through skewed perceptions.

It's comparable to being a designer (I'm a graphic designer). After 4 years (or more) of rigorous training, reading, insight and teaching in school and in jobs, you see the world differently. Type, color, layout, size, proportions, font, image, retouching, paper choice, printing matter, ideas, creativity .... it all becomes so readily obvious and turns instinctual. Almost uncontrollable sometimes.

That's what I feel, that's what I think almost on a daily basis. A part of me knows the way that I think isn't "normal", but a bigger part of me knows that I can't stop. I don't know if I'll ever be able to stop.

I don't remember the user's name (sorry) but someone has previously mentioned the idea of Passively Suicidal and comparing it to getting hit by a truck by either A: not looking when switching lanes or B: thinking the truck will stop before hitting you. I've had many, many days like this where I'm PS and most recently this scenario actually happened.

I live in NYC, and while waiting to cross a busy street just north of Times Square I was hit by a police car at about 10 mph. It wasn't serious, as the left side view mirror just hit my elbow from behind, and I was fine. But at the same time I wasn't disturbed by the incident at all. Everyone around me stared and waited for me to freak out at the cops, but I simply didn't. When the traffic stopped, I walked on and was completely unemotional about the whole ordeal.

But reading about this PS scale proposal, and then reading this anecdote about not looking for cars when switching lanes ..... it's making me see that my reaction that day was maybe not okay. I should've been upset and calling police and filing charges, or doing what anyone else would've done. But I didn't. I walked on, completely unemotional about the whole ordeal, and imagining this car actually hitting me dead on instead.

I spend most of my time in levels 2 to 4, daily ... but, on a few occasions, I have reached level 8, and been hospitalised. I remember, at the time, being very angry that I was receiving medical intervention, and at times I do still get depressed that I survived. But I do not always feel that way. It is very hard to stay even in "just" level 4 when the depression gets too far down that dark and lonely road. Honestly, I am not even sure how it is I have survived through my depressions. I really do not know.