Sorry for the delay. I feel like I ought to answer as did Aku Tenpa, by exposing myself! In fact, although I have attended the teachings of a number of people, I never formally taken a "lama." (Recall the Sufi proverb, "He who has no shaykh, has Satan for his shaykh!")

Yes, we have veered seriously off-topic. I am sorry if you have not enjoyed the diversion, as I have. Perhaps this is proof of Lama Ivo's powers, that he frustrates and scatters his critics from afar.

Alfredo wrote:Sorry for the delay. I feel like I ought to answer as did Aku Tenpa, by exposing myself! In fact, although I have attended the teachings of a number of people, I never formally taken a "lama." (Recall the Sufi proverb, "He who has no shaykh, has Satan for his shaykh!")

Thank you, it explains a lot.

/magnus

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa

Sorry that I could not react earlier, I was just made aware of this thread by a friend. I did expect that something like this would appear at some point, but please know that I have not really followed anything on the Dharma related Internet forums during the past several years, so as of today I have no idea of what is really going on. I have not read Dharma Wheel at all. In fact, I made this account some months ago just to contact a friend, and have not used it.

I tried to read most of the thread, and it is an interesting one. I am surprised to see nuances which were lacking in Dharma related Internet discussions years ago. Thank you all for not crucifying me completely, at least not for now, and even for the occasional tentative kind words. Some of you I know and respect a lot.

If I can clarify in any way what is going on with me I will. However please know two things - 1) I have tried to make sure that most major points are explained as clearly as possible on the skydharma website, I am not sure I can do better than that, and 2) I have really no interest to associate what is happening with us with the Tibetan tradition, at all. I can not escape from my lineage and background, and I have utmost respect for my teachers. However what we do has little to do with the Tibetan tradition at this point and I would not like to be a burden. I would actually prefer to be dismissed as a false "teacher", cult leader, whatever. I have never been recognized as a tulku in the tibetan tradition and I am no more a tulku than any of you. Also, I have had nothing even remotely resembling a traditional tulku education so I find it very hard to take proper care even of the small group of people who think of me as their teacher. On top of that I utterly despise the role of a 'lama', in any form, and I hate personal responsibility and try to avoid it any time I am given a chance to.

I am still coming to terms with many things which have happened to me personally, and with some responsibilities I have taken and I have no idea still if I will be able to help anyone in a genuine or meaningful way. All of you are free to judge what we do, from the little information which is publicly shared, and this is something I have been aware of from the moment I agreed to the idea of an open community. I know very well how the Internet works. I am also aware of Aro, which i do not like, and of the many problems related to false lineages the Tibetan tradition has been facing - both historically and currently. I am not a fan of false Dharma, I do not fancy the personal karmic implications of involvement with something like this, nor do I like to cause harm to beings.

Regarding the mention of some of my personality flaws in this thread, I must say that these observations are, sadly, entirely accurate. I have others flaws too, which I can voluntarily add to the list upon request. My character is not very pleasing, my attitude is often rude with people, and on top of that my command of the English language is poor and what I write often actually comes out more strong than I intend. And I have little patience with nonsense. I do not think highly of myself, so I can understand very well anyone who does not like me.

And finally, just one of a few factual inaccuracies I noticed in the thread - please know that I have the highest regard for Yeshe Dorje. He is one of the very few amazing Western practitioners I have had the pleasure of communicating with, and I am sure he is a much better Dharma practitioner than I can ever aspire to be.

Sorry that I could not react earlier, I was just made aware of this thread by a friend. I did expect that something like this would appear at some point, but please know that I have not really followed anything on the Dharma related Internet forums during the past several years, so as of today I have no idea of what is really going on. I have not read Dharma Wheel at all. In fact, I made this account some months ago just to contact a friend, and have not used it.

I tried to read most of the thread, and it is an interesting one. I am surprised to see nuances which were lacking in Dharma related Internet discussions years ago. Thank you all for not crucifying me completely, at least not for now, and even for the occasional tentative kind words. Some of you I know and respect a lot.

If I can clarify in any way what is going on with me I will. However please know two things - 1) I have tried to make sure that most major points are explained as clearly as possible on the skydharma website, I am not sure I can do better than that, and 2) I have really no interest to associate what is happening with us with the Tibetan tradition, at all. I can not escape from my lineage and background, and I have utmost respect for my teachers. However what we do has little to do with the Tibetan tradition at this point and I would not like to be a burden. I would actually prefer to be dismissed as a false "teacher", cult leader, whatever. I have never been recognized as a tulku in the tibetan tradition and I am no more a tulku than any of you. Also, I have had nothing even remotely resembling a traditional tulku education so I find it very hard to take proper care even of the small group of people who think of me as their teacher. On top of that I utterly despise the role of a 'lama', in any form, and I hate personal responsibility and try to avoid it any time I am given a chance to.

I am still coming to terms with many things which have happened to me personally, and with some responsibilities I have taken and I have no idea still if I will be able to help anyone in a genuine or meaningful way. All of you are free to judge what we do, from the little information which is publicly shared, and this is something I have been aware of from the moment I agreed to the idea of an open community. I know very well how the Internet works. I am also aware of Aro, which i do not like, and of the many problems related to false lineages the Tibetan tradition has been facing - both historically and currently. I am not a fan of false Dharma, I do not fancy the personal karmic implications of involvement with something like this, nor do I like to cause harm to beings.

Regarding the mention of some of my personality flaws in this thread, I must say that these observations are, sadly, entirely accurate. I have others flaws too, which I can voluntarily add to the list upon request. My character is not very pleasing, my attitude is often rude with people, and on top of that my command of the English language is poor and what I write often actually comes out more strong than I intend. And I have little patience with nonsense. I do not think highly of myself, so I can understand very well anyone who does not like me.

And finally, just one of a few factual inaccuracies I noticed in the thread - please know that I have the highest regard for Yeshe Dorje. He is one of the very few amazing Western practitioners I have had the pleasure of communicating with, and I am sure he is a much better Dharma practitioner than I can ever aspire to be.

Ivo

Ivo, your response should be considered plagiarism. Why do I say that? Because I've heard the same apologetic spiel several times before from cult leaders being confronted with their deception and misconduct.So humble, so open, so,.. rehearsed. But obviously not well thought out.

"I have really no interest to associate what is happening with us with the Tibetan tradition, at all."So how does this not wanting to associate with Tibetan Buddhism fit in with your "new cycle of Dharma/new dzogchen" teachings? The name is so similar after all.

"You can find our community and this website beneficial if:8. You have at any point really considered whether to involve your kids in the educational system at all."How bodhisattva like of you to consider the children of your potential followers.

"11. You feel that you have been unjustly treated by life so far."How premeditated of you to frame a victim as being wrong before they even have the chance to be victimized.

"There is a lot of difference and there is none, it depends on how we define differences. The established Tibetan traditions teach methods and teachings which were given in India and Tibet long time ago, and which were generally suitable for other times and cultures. We carry lineages which have been given by the same sources only in the past few years, and which are very attuned to our time, circumstances and culture. Both sets of teachings are valid for the appropriate audience they were transmitted to, both come from the same sources, and both lead to the same goals."This bit speaks for itself, you're claiming you're on par with the lineage masters and therefore a greater authority than the "lowly lamas that are just regurgitating old irrelevant to modern people teachings" .

"I have extensive spiritual insights and would like to share them with your community, how can we arrange this?We can't. If that is the case, you will be much better off founding your own community somewhere and saving the world with it."Well worn advice?

"On top of that I utterly despise the role of a 'lama', in any form, and I hate personal responsibility and try to avoid it any time I am given a chance to." I do particularly like this line because it makes you out to be a victim of circumstance. It's completely nonsensical since you did choose to set yourself up as a lama, and your website is just about you and promoting you, but it's lovely as far as paradigms for manipulation go.

Anyways, I have seen this so many times already it's become boring and I don't feel like elaborating on all the red flags. 10 years ago I would have still had some dismay and energy at seeing this "humble" defensive strategy but now it just feels so cliche.

Next time have someone proof read your rhetoric.

If there is a radical inconsistency between your statements and the position you claim to hold,you are a sock puppet.Make as many accounts as you want; people can identify your deception with this test.

discombobulated wrote:Ivo, your response should be considered plagiarism. Why do I say that? Because I've heard the same apologetic spiel several times before from cult leaders being confronted with their deception and misconduct.So humble, so open, so,.. rehearsed. But obviously not well thought out.

"I have really no interest to associate what is happening with us with the Tibetan tradition, at all."So how does this not wanting to associate with Tibetan Buddhism fit in with your "new cycle of Dharma/new dzogchen" teachings? The name is so similar after all.

"You can find our community and this website beneficial if:8. You have at any point really considered whether to involve your kids in the educational system at all."How bodhisattva like of you to consider the children of your potential followers.

"11. You feel that you have been unjustly treated by life so far."How premeditated of you to frame a victim as being wrong before they even have the chance to be victimized.

"There is a lot of difference and there is none, it depends on how we define differences. The established Tibetan traditions teach methods and teachings which were given in India and Tibet long time ago, and which were generally suitable for other times and cultures. We carry lineages which have been given by the same sources only in the past few years, and which are very attuned to our time, circumstances and culture. Both sets of teachings are valid for the appropriate audience they were transmitted to, both come from the same sources, and both lead to the same goals."This bit speaks for itself, you're claiming you're on par with the lineage masters and therefore a greater authority than the "lowly lamas that are just regurgitating old irrelevant to modern people teachings" .

"I have extensive spiritual insights and would like to share them with your community, how can we arrange this?We can't. If that is the case, you will be much better off founding your own community somewhere and saving the world with it."Well worn advice?

"On top of that I utterly despise the role of a 'lama', in any form, and I hate personal responsibility and try to avoid it any time I am given a chance to." I do particularly like this line because it makes you out to be a victim of circumstance. It's completely nonsensical since you did choose to set yourself up as a lama, and your website is just about you and promoting you, but it's lovely as far as paradigms for manipulation go.

Anyways, I have seen this so many times already it's become boring and I don't feel like elaborating on all the red flags. 10 years ago I would have still had some dismay and energy at seeing this "humble" defensive strategy but now it just feels so cliche.

Next time have someone proof read your rhetoric.

All you have managed to demonstrate at very least is that Ivo's detractors are hysterical, presumptuous and churlish. However, I am impressed by your bold move defending the Buddhist faith from heretics while ignoring right speech. That takes some chutzpah. Chapeau!

It will be interesting to see how this turns out. My hope is that the intentions are sincere and the students benefit. We need more examples of well functioning Western dharma communities.

In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,I must obtain control over my own mind. Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.-Atisha Dipamkarabrtsal ba'i bkhra drin

How my comment is viewed does not concern me at all. If someone thinks it is plagiarism, I have no objection. At the stage in life I am at I have not the slightest interest in defending anything, least of all the skydharma community. I wrote in the thread only because I saw that someone I consider a friend has asked me in it repeatedly to join, and there are serious practitioners participating here.

These days I have some free time, but I try to use the Internet very sparingly and mostly for replying to e-mails. I use the rest of my time for cave diving, where I am away from this all, and given a choice I would do that full time. I will not get myself sucked into replying here ad nauseam or raising the banner of the one true Dharma, etc. i have gotten quite cynical in this regard. If someone choses to disparage me, our teachings, our small community, even my teachers, I just hope this brings him/her benefit and points others in a better direction. And I am saying this without a trace of hypocrisy or irony.If someone on the other hand has normal questions, I may try to answer to the best of my ability.

Lama Ivo, thank you for appearing. I am glad that what you have seen of our discussion has not scared you off. If we are going to crucify you, then I would rather play the role of Pilate, who at least got Christ to say a few words, than Herod, before whom he remained silent! I would add that I have at least as many personality flaws as you do, although I have it on good authority that these are merely adventitious defilements.

So, questions! By the way, I have read your website (every page).

First of all, although you have distanced yourself from many aspects of Tibetan Buddhism, you continue to emphasize the practice of guru devotion, and have assumed the role of a guru yourself (even to the extent of leading students from Bulgaria to Mexico). But isn't guru devotion one of the most problematic aspects of Tibetan Buddhism, responsible for numerous abuses? In your view, why is guru devotion necessary or beneficial? Are there any limits to the obedience owed one's guru? What are the qualifications of a genuine guru?

Although you disclaim tulku status, if I am not mistaken, you do present yourself as a terton ("treasure-text discoverer"). In this postmodern era (and given your problematic relationship to Tibetan tradition), how can such claims be interpreted as anything other than a personal fantasy? What is the difference?

Like traditional Tibetan Buddhism, you believe in reincarnation (and have memories of your own past lives), as well as liberation from samsara, and a cosmology / psychology consistent with Buddhist dzogchen, and even report receiving messages from dharmapalas. So, what aspects of traditional Tibetan Buddhism led you to regard it as incompatible with your new path? For the benefit of Dharma Wheel readers, I append a couple of explanatory quotes from the Sky Dharma website:

In 2011 many highly unusual events rapidly unfolded, culminating in Ivo’s acceptance of the role of formal Buddhist teacher in the summer of that year, through the inspiration of H.H. Kyabje Trulshik Rinpoche, who passed away shortly after. From him Ivo received some precise and detailed final instructions on the future course of his life and activity. [...] A year prior to these events Ivo had started to receive some new Dzogchen lineages as Da snang transmission, which involved very special practices, quite incompatible with the way the mainstream Tibetan Buddhist lineages have so far been disseminated in the West. All this finally led him to the decision to cut formal ties with the Tibetan Buddhist establishment, to sell his Dharma center and to invite his close students on a very unusual and challenging sailing adventure around the world. [...] The purpose of that trip for him was partly to see which of his students were ready to take what would follow.

By early spring of 2012 it was clear to everyone involved that if we kept our direction we were heading into an almost inevitable collision course with the Tibetan Buddhist establishment. Our senior practitioners were receiving in their meditation repeated indications that a major change of direction was imminent. A whole new cycle of esoteric Dzogchen teachings had already began to manifest as a Dag snang transmission to our teacher and his close students and the Dharmapalas were making it very clear that if we were to move forward some hard decisions had to be made, and followed. We had to break our connection with the Tibetan Tradition, at least formally, and we had to establish a completely different framework for teaching and practice. It all depended on Ivo, and, as he often does, he chose to change everything. This led to The Journey.

Your website states that " a student can drop out at any stage by his/her own wish, but would lose the privilege to attend any further teachings and activities." Why is that?

Your website also suggests that your teachings are inappropriate for those who "feel that working for a career makes sense" [...] "trust the news media" [...] or "believe Stephen Hawking." I can't tell whether this is a restatement of the traditional Buddhist teaching of samsara, or something a bit more paranoid--along the lines that we are all living in the Matrix, or some such. What's wrong with mainstream careers / mainstream science?

Thank you taking time out of your spelunking to descend into the dark recesses of the Buddhist internet! I look forward to your explanations and insights.

Simon and Karma Dorje I have lived long enough to see cults form from innocent Buddhist groups I was involved with more than once, and many more times I have seen them turn from a distance and listened to the accounts of what transpired from students after they fall out of favor with the cult personality.

There are indicators of where something is heading. Setting yourself up as an authority greater than your own teachers. Isolating students from other Buddhists, and in this case the rest of the world. Setting out the rules of admission to an inner circle on the website to put things into a "well if you don't like being abused then leave" context. Non-apology apologies(technical term) where when confronted they use apologetic terms to disarm but don't admit wrong doing or personal responsibility for their actions or in this case, a more convoluted form of admitting any wrong doing perceived or real and not acknowledging any personal responsibility.

Just writing this incomplete list of red flags indicating he is setting himself up as a cult leader is exhausting.Simon and Karma Dorje, would you just read some books about cult manipulation so you know how a cult operates before you start defending people accused of running a cult? Or are you the sycophants(technical term for a particular position in a cult)?

Alfredo, it is a terrible mistake to address him in the context of comparing him to Christ. Cult leaders play on association with religious figures in order to quell doubts because through association if they are say Christ and you're doubting them, that makes you the bad guy.

Address him as a human. Because that is what he is. This will cause some cult leaders to become aggressive btw. Especially if they do not have their sycophants to back them up.So be sure to ask Ivo questions about his childhood, his family, his education, his finances, where he lives, how often he has bowel movements, anything that brings him down to the level of a human.

If there is a radical inconsistency between your statements and the position you claim to hold,you are a sock puppet.Make as many accounts as you want; people can identify your deception with this test.

disjointed wrote:Simon and Karma Dorje I have lived long enough to see cults form from innocent Buddhist groups I was involved with more than once, and many more times I have seen them turn from a distance and listened to the accounts of what transpired from students after they fall out of favor with the cult personality.

Wow, judge, jury and executioner.

Listen, we are talking about _religion_. All religions are cults by definition.

Just live and let live. If Ivo is the next Jim Jones, well, it is too early to tell, isn't it?

If there is a radical inconsistency between your statements and the position you claim to hold,you are a sock puppet.Make as many accounts as you want; people can identify your deception with this test.