I'm new(ish) to teaching and so far have mostly been assisting my sensei in class. However, sometimes I teach classes on my own. I obviously have lots to learn about what it means to be a teacher and some suggestions on how this situation could have been handled would be appreciated.

On day after class, a blue belt asked for help on part of a kata she was stuck on. This kata was a requirement for her upcoming brown belt grading. Sensei and I showed her how to finish the kata and then he asked her to do it by herself. She replied: "No. I won't do it, and you can't make me." Sensei said nothing but gave her the "stern glare" look while she continued to refuse to do the kata. The only way she would complete the whole thing was if all 3 of us did it at the same time.

My initial reaction was to speak up and say: "dojo etiquette means you don't refuse what sensei asks of you". Or, if I had been the sensei teaching this student I might have been tempted to have her do an obscene number of push ups, THEN tell her that she doesn't refuse a sensei's request.

However, I didn't want to overstep my sensei's way of dealing with the situation. Moreover, we are not a very formal group, although I (personally) have always tried to model deep respect for all senior sensei's within our club.

That sounds a strange, and rather confrontational, reponse from her. I assume that she'll have to do the kata solo for the grading anyway..?

I'm very much an advocate of the 'my house, my rules' approach to etiquette. As you and your sensei were voluntarily giving extra time to respond to her request for help, her refusal to do as she was asked just seems plain rude. I'm not sure how I would have dealt with the situation, but mentioning a few points regarding manners may have been on my list.

Maybe he should have asked why she didn't want to do the kata solo? Perhaps then he could deal with the cause of her problems rather than reprimand her. Punishment without understanding and reasoning benefits no one.

That said, outright refusal to do something should definitely have repercussions. She should be made to know that she is being taught as a courtesy as much as she paid for it and that inside the Dojo she must show respect for all the people in it. She should not get away stock free with addressing her instructor so indignantly.

Leo, of course you're right about needing to know the reasons. I just assume the sensei present knew something or found out during a stern talk (did she ever do the kata?).

I'm puzzled that a blue belt needs to be told the reasons to perform solo or needed to be reminded of ettiquette and discipline.

Thinking over it, I might also have reminded her that if she wasn't going to do it solo infront of her sensei then she wasn't going to get any more tuition for the kata that class. I'd also have reminded her that such rudeness would have failed her in a grading.

_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

I'm with Oldman. I want to also know what the reason is. Is it shyness about an emerging skill that is too raw to show? Is this more innocent than defiant? Defiance should not be tolerated. Shyness can be worked with. Did she feel provoked? Basicly, I want to know if we are going after a fly with a cannon.

Wow! Lots of good ideas here! I'm going to lump my responses together in this post.

Oldman, the blue belt I was referring to is in her late 30's and has been around the block a couple of times regarding gradings (our belt progression starts @ white then: yellow, orange, green, blue, brown, 1st and 2nd stripes black then black belt). She needs this kata for her brown belt grading @ the end of November

I think there are several things going on with this student. 1. A lack of confidence with this particular kata. 2. She will only demonstrate her skills if she feels she is perfect @ it. For example, during her blue belt grading I was told to spar with her. She just stood there with her guard up. She was pretty tired, maybe a bit overwhelmed, and probably not at her best for thinking on her feet. Our renshi pulled me aside and said to slow things down a bit, give her a couple of strikes to wake her up, then leave obvious openings to see if she would take them. Nope. Just more standing around. After the grading while giving her some feedback about the sparring portion I pointed out to her that if someone stands in front of her leaving very obvious openings, that's her opportunity to strike. Her response? "I get bored if someone just stands there." My response? "A grading isn't about what *you* like or want to do, it's about demonstrating to your sensei's what you're supposed to know."3. I think there is a general lack of respect for sensei's from a few of the older students at this dojo. While I think the usual sensei who teaches this class is a great person and has excellent techniques, I'm not so sure he's been equally as good at instilling a sense of respect for *everyone* in the dojo

I've seen a few students like that. I'm honestly amazed that she managed to make it as high as he has with that attitude though. Usually those students drop out after their first few classes. Unless you have a valid reason not to be doing something, injury, etc, you are expected to do whatever the instructor says.

Fear is understandable, and we usually work with the student to get around it. Many students have trouble performing patterns in front of everyone, or for their instructor. Even I will have trouble if my instructor is watching. I always seem to do best when I know he's focused on someone else. The attitude she seems to be showing could just be a defensive mechanism and her way of trying to keep people from seeing that fear. That seems more likely what with the way she acted with sparring. It sounds to me like she froze up, and then covered for it by making a silly excuse.

Of course this is completely different from blatent disrespect and can be difficult to determine. Some students don't know they are being disrespectful until someone points it out. Learning to deal with it is one of the more challenging things to learn when you are starting to teach. I've gotten very good at counting to 10 in Korean Some students, kids especially, are there only because their parents can't get them to behave in society and they want them to learn some discipline and respect. Oddly enough, its those same parents who stop making their kids come to class when they don't see immediate results.

Shrug.

If I were you, I would talk to your instructor about the situation and see what he has to say about it.

I'm new to this forum, so I have to ask: what is a "McDojo/McSensei"? (I have a feeling our club is going to fit into these categories).

I don't think the student I was talking about takes the attitude of: "I've paid for my belt so I deserve it". She works hard in class, is focused, and practices outside of the dojo. She can be argumentative or sceptical, mostly from a bunkai perspective but she usually accepts a technique as being just one more tool in her toolbox of karate skills.

I think it's just one of her personal quirks which has posed an interesting learning opportunity for me. Is there a way to address a student saying "no" in a way that would be: a) Firm - leaving no questions about what is an appropriate response to your senseib) Instructive for the student c) Not crush their desire to continue because they've been "admonished"

Interestingly, I've started taking kobudo in a different style of karate, with a totally different sensei, and a very different infusion of what respect means - inside and outside the dojo. I couldn't even begin to imagine a karateka saying "no" in this sensei's class. I think the door would hit them before their "kobudo" made it out of there ...

A "McDojo" et al is poor quality school that provides the martial equvilent of "fast food", greasy, loaded with stuff that is bad for you, low in quality nutrition, poorly made, usually by sub/unskilled workers--often by youngsters who punch buttons with pictures of food on them rather than actually read.

ie. A place where quality training is a distint "2nd" to money, fast belt advancement etc.

They often do plenty of business as their business model is focused on kids--bright colors, fast service, lots of meaningless activity etc.

No offense to McDonalds meant--I eat way to much of their food.

_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won.
Huey.

For me it is inportant to understand the individual that I'm dealing with. In our styles membership oath we say "We as members comply with regulations and obey instructors" That agreement or social contract sets a standard and rules of conduct.

Having said that there are times when a student's "No" can be representitve of an unaddressed fear or conversely their personal growth. In the same way an obedient child can turn into an adolesent that questions authority. In many individuals things in their personal history may cause them to baulk at different times and different situations. Many times the behavior is in place to avoid an unpleasant emotion. When a person is reacting from fear they may not seem present or have there head in the game. When that is the case most people would rather be seen as defiant rather than fearfull. Really knowing the person helps you to know if it is fear based and what the fear is. If it is it is up to the instructor to determine if it is an appropriate time for the student to address the the fear. The teacher can encourage the student to continue, ignore it, dress the person down,tell them to take a hike, or any number of other responses.

I encourage people to comply and obey instructors. That being said I remind them it is always their choice and that they hold the responsibility to determine where they will draw the line. In certain student I would actually praise them if if reflected growth in their ability to verbalise a boundry and care for themselves.

Thanks for the "enlightenment" on the McD label. And phew! Our club doesn't fit that description. Our membership is growing, as is the number of dojo's within our organization, but class sizes remain small. There are some kids with black belts (which is a touchy topic with me, but our senior sensei's endorse it, so I go with the flow on this one) and they teach classes, with more senior sensei's watching what is going on.

I don't think we're on par with McD's yet, but now I wonder if some of our sensei's were former McD employees...

You raise in important point about membership oaths. This is something that isn't in place within the club where I, and this student train. I wish they were part of our students committment to their karate, but it isn't in place, nor is it likely to be implemented.

As for getting to know a student really well, I'm familiar with most of the more senior kyu belts within our club, but I definetly don't know them as a regular instructor would.

After reading the suggestions here, I'm beginning to realize that I probably would have a different perspective on the situation with the student who said "no" if I knew this blue belt better. Using less-than-ideal encounters with her (sparring during her grading & her possible kata "performance anxiety") as a basis to judge or critize an occurence of disrespect is presumptious (and petty, I might add) on my part.

Amused disbelief, preferably gentle laughter seems quite appropriate. Someone who is 30 years old and responding in that manner may have genuine issues well beyond the typical "norm".

<<she doesn't refuse a sensei's request.

Here is the primary issue. Any of us can easily and SHOULD "refuse" if we have a good cause but politely for goodness sakes. The manner which she choose seems a temper tantrum and literally designed to cause a "power struggle".

Easily handled any number of ways....

"Ok, thank you..." and then ignore her literally as if she was not there would be one possibility.

Public stoning apparently (according to some here) would be perfectly acceptable.

If her stunt was done in a very ~public manner~ then you can make a lesson of it. At the end of that class not immediately then... so you don't give gas to the fire she created.

Something to the effect, ~...there was a good reminder tonight, for the teachers that we want to talk just briefly about... basic gist:

not embarassing anyonepointing outteaching martial arts here... cannot easily simulate the situations hope none of you will ever face... can & WILL create situations designed to cause ALL of us discomfort...for some -sparring, for some kata whatever the case everybody has something they won't always love everytime...everybody has them

A real fight, physical/mental , car accident, boyfriend fight, assault.We create a small pressure asking everyone to demonstrate in front of the class. Not accidental, carefully controlled Done to help you figure out how to handle these small pressures. In time more is carefully added. Trust

<<Here is the primary issue. Any of us can easily and SHOULD "refuse" if we have a good cause but politely for goodness sakes.>>

In the interest of personal safety, or let's say someone's personal baggage, it makes perfect sense to say "no" to something you don't feel comfortable with in class. Giving a brief explanation will hopefully buy you a lot more mileage on saying "no".

In the case of the blue belt refusing to do the kata (it was after class and she had asked for extra help) she didn't give any reasons why. I think it was a poor choice of words on her part and too quick a judgement on my part. In hindsight, I still have slightly mixed feelings about not having said anything, but mostly I feel fortunate that I kept my mouth shut.

Because we don't have contracts or a visible "code of conduct", "dojo etiquette" or even a definition of what a sensei/sempai is, it's probably better to let her figure out what "respect", "sensei" and "etiquette" means to her and how she chooses to demonstrate or comply with these things. Perhaps, in time, she'll come to view these things in a different way. I know I'm re-evaluating my perception of all of these...

I'm amazed that it was after class and at her own request and then she says something like that. It's not the 'no' that gets me, it's the '...and you can't make me' bit.

Quote:I think it was a poor choice of words on her part and too quick a judgement on my part.

Of course, HOW she said it might have made a difference.

On a point of dojang discipline, one of the most notable TKD assocs in UK has a student rule book. It says a student may disagree with an instructor but should not argue in class. The student should do what they are told and approach the instructor afterwards.

It seems so,

_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

I have seen this first hand once and can understand some situations. We had testing and one of the senior instructors was up in the viewing area eating or she just finished eating and the school owner called her down to ether demo a form or do her form with a another student as a shadow, and she just shook her head no! So I can see how things can happen.

I guess I think the student you refer to should not have even made it that far in rank. Also, it makes me wonder why she is even there and is another case of coddling and hand holding, of compromising the Martial Arts? I often wonder why attitudes like this go un checked. This isn’t a control thing for me but a respect thing. If a student acts like this there is a break down in communication some ware.

Martial Arts is a journey, a way of life, not just a thing too do or a place too go. As an instructor your job is to help mold a student and to help them on there journey and help them develop themselves but not be a babysitter. On the students part, there job is to be a receptor and to welcome the guidance of the instructor. If one doesn’t like the guidance of the instructor then it is time to leave and to find someone that you want to help you on you journey.

Interesting discussion...and timely. Up until last night, I've never considered saying 'no' to instruction. Last night I did. I did so with respect, and some humour...but I was definitely trying to 'get out of it'.

Like you, I had never said "no" to a sensei before. It just didn't occurr to me that this was a possible way out.

However, I injured myself fairly badly this Spring and had no choice about what I could/could not do in class. In this case, I hobbled into the dojo & told my Sensei before the warm-up what I was not able to do. He ignored my limitations (that's my Sensei for ya' ) and expected me to keep up with everyone. If he asked me why I wasn't doing a particular technique, I had to say: "I can't because of my injury." My Sensei didn't give me the "look" of disapproval, nor was he overly sympathetic, but this is an example of saying "no", with a justifiable reason (in my mind anyway!) behind it.

Now I have to make sure I don't abuse that little excuse if I'm asked to do something I don't want to...

Here IS a perfect opportunity to speak with your instructor DIRECTLY and explain you misgivings... ask him/her what your role SHOULD be, and explain what you wanted to do in that situation....

Its the perfect time for communication Jeff

I *did* speak with my sensei the next day. I mentioned to him what my initial reaction to the student was and that I was interested, from a teaching perspective (mine) why he didn't say anything about her rudeness. He said that "you have to have some intelligence" (when dealing with this kind of student). At the time, I was confused as to why his silence was considered "intelligent".

After reading the various perspectives offered in this thread, I think I'm beginning to appreciate my sensei's approach a little better. Or at least consider dealing with this type of situation in a different way than my initial gut-reaction, which was to discipline the student, then explain etiquette to her.

Thank you for reminding me to check ahead of time what I'll be required to do. I usually do ask, but I didn't in this case. It was a last minute request to help out, I didn't have a lot of time to think about what I was doing, and I'm not very experienced in teaching, especially with this group of students.

Boy, I thought the "sensei" title, and the shiny new BB to go along with it would make things easier - not harder. Looks like *I* have a lot to learn...

I'm new(ish) to teaching and so far have mostly been assisting my sensei in class.

Then it's up to the owner to care for matters like you have stated. Your just a teacher and they are his customers..$$$$$$.... let him deal with unrully students, that is unless he gives you thumbs up to dicipline at your discression.

_________________________
The way of the warrior does not include other ways... Miyamoto Musashi
Schanne

Man, a lot of soft answers. I would have shown her the door. i dont teach for money so her being a "customer" means nothing to me. She asked for help. Part of that help is critiquing the kata. This cannot be done if the "critic" is going along right beside you. She showed a blatant disrespect that would not have been tolerated in my presence. I kicked my own wife out of class once. Some stranger isnt going to change things.

_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be." Lao Tzu

It sounds to me like this student lacked the confidence to do the kata on her own; she was porbably mortified by the idea of being "on stage" while you and your sensei watched her.

I think your sensei did the right thing. Like all teachers, your sensei has to pick his battles. If his goal is to have the student learn the kata, confronting her about "disrespect" might have been counterproductive.

If she openly told her instructor NO and refused to attemp to do the Kata unless all three of you did it together tells me one thing for sure, she is young.....maybe to young to have the rank she already holds, with rank comes responsibilities, maybe she isnt ready yet......in my class she would have done push-ups or gone home...

Quote:It sounds to me like this student lacked the confidence to do the kata on her own; she was porbably mortified by the idea of being "on stage" while you and your sensei watched her.

I think your sensei did the right thing. Like all teachers, your sensei has to pick his battles. If his goal is to have the student learn the kata, confronting her about "disrespect" might have been counterproductive.

Hi -

I agree with you. The student probably did have stage fright (although she's grading for her brown belt very soon and I'd have hoped she'd be over "stage fright" at this stage in her training). My sensei wanted her to get past the block she was having in the kata, so he didn't make a big deal about her attitude.

It's taken me a long time to figure out why my sensei acted the way he did. My sensei chose to help her get past her hang-up in the kata so for him, that particular moment wasn't the time to comment on her attitude. I still think that the student needs to be reminded about respect and dojo etiquette. It's just a question of how and when to bring it up.

Ultimately, I think that dealing with a student like this one depends on your teaching style.

Totally unacceptable at that level, and young? The woman is 30 years of age, my 4 year old doesn't say NO!

My response would have been quite simply to tell her to get off the mat and not bother coming back to the club. That sort of behaviour would not reflect the ethos of my martial art and I doubt it would yours.

Quote:[According to Senseihonor's 10/10 post 10:48am(?) the woman apparently is in her late 30's somewhere... ie very much an adult in theory]

Jeff

Yup - she's in her 30's but in that moment, she was a child masquerading as an adult.

This student is grading for her brown belt very soon. It's a sad reality that within our dojo, a student grading for their next kyu belt "technically" already has their new belt. The grading is supposed to demonstrate that the student won't allow the Sensei to "take the new belt back" from the student.

I personally don't agree with this approach, but then I don't always agree with a number of things within our dojo. However, having a personal difference of opinion has been a good way for me to learn what and how I would/'nt like to run my own dojo - if and when I ever get to that stage.

A flaw in the system perhaps? But until they earn the rank, its not theirs... until the pass the test, it is not passed.The technical ability does not guarantee passage IMHV... likely yes, certain, never... A personal difference of opinion is excellent... lock-step cookie-cutter beliefs & dogma is tragicly unfortunate.

A flaw in the system perhaps? But until they earn the rank, its not theirs... until the pass the test, it is not passed.The technical ability does not guarantee passage IMHV... likely yes, certain, never...

No. A student doesn't physically have the belt yet. They are given it @ the end of the grading. It's a mere technicality @ that point. I personally found this way of grading disappointing, but it's not my decision as to how belts are awarded.

A disagreement of opinion in our dojo is reasonably acceptable - as the case with this student demonstrates. Also, students are supported in their pursuit of other MA systems & encouraged to bring their knowledge back to the dojo. It is permissable to question our curriculum, and @ times challenge what is being taught - especially if you can provide a reason for the challenge along with something else that might be more effective for you.

<<An acquaintance of mine was kept from testing for her BB for at least two years as a result of her attitude.

Ok, what possible "valid" concern could there be such that ones public attitude/views would prevent promotion for TWO blessed years ??? My skills exist or do not. This one I cannot fathom... what context could possibly justify that length of time denying my promotion ???

<<She held no grudge and ended up as a great BB.

She's a "better person" than I am then... NO GRUDGE? Two years seems ludricous.... able to flesh this one out a bit hopefully?

People, people, people. Dear me, when will you understand? A person who comes for tuition is a customer, in the same manner as they would be if they were seeking tuition from a music teacher. There is nothing 'special' about MA instructors, except in YOUR perception of them. Obviously, this young woman does not share 'your' perception. To say you would order her to do "an obscene number of push-ups" is crazy, she's just refused one order what makes you think she would obey yours?

People come for MA instruction on a voluntary basis, they aren't conscripts into an army, you have no RIGHT to order them about. They are customers, we now live in a consumerist society, people are very aware of their rights under the law. Once you start to treat those attending your Dojo as customers not conscripts, there is a fair chance you might be a little more successful in your endeavors with this young woman and others who view things with the same perception as her, of which there are many. EI, if I'm buying, I'll make the decisions on what I do and what I don't do, after all its my money I'm parting with. I see nothing unreasonable with that stance. The basis of any commercial organisations success is that it (as an organisation) realises that 'THE CUSTOMER IS KING', without customers there will be no organisation left.

I don't know about the rest of the world, but in the UK and Europe we have what is called 'consumer rights' which are laid down in legislation and exist in numerous different forms. Whilst you may not like what the young woman did or the way in which she did it, the fact remains that (even from a moral stance) she has an absolute right to say NO, and mean NO.

Some considerable time ago I was in a similar position as your young customer and was ordered to do 100 press-ups. My reaction was "UP YOURS DOCTOR", and I left and found a Dojo more suited to my taste, the funny thing was that my previous Dojo closed down some 14 months after I left. So beware, one satisfied customer might tell five or six others, one disenchanted customer will tell hundreds.

Why can't defiance be tolerated? Is it that you can't deal with the challenge? Or that you're ego doesn't like having any competition? Not being rude, but like I have said above attendance is voluntary not compulsory, you do not have the right to enforce your will on any customer. That's life.

Facing this situation, I would have tried to probe why she responded as she did. If she gave no detail or explanation for her actions, she would have been asked to leave the floor until the time she felt she could continue on with the lesson in a productive manner. If she explained that she had experienced something recently which affected her ability to train, I would have of course understood and asked her to take a small break until she felt she could continue. Same response but set up in two entirely different fashions. In either case, the situation would have been isolated from others, dealt with directly, and then dismissed.

If she did not wish to leave the floor (given the fact nothing was terribly wrong), she would have been completely ignored like a child having a temper tantrum. And, as someone else mentioned, it would have been addressed at the end of class by discussing dojo ettiquette (sp) and simple respect for your seniors.

I do not subscribe to this customer approach. Teacher/student relationships have to have some form of structure and hierarchy. If this breaks down, there will be anarchy and order must be maintained or it damages other's ability to learn and progress as well.

Scottie

_________________________"The greatest way to live with honor in this world is to be what we pretend to be."

Quote:Not being rude, but like I have said above attendance is voluntary not compulsory, you do not have the right to enforce your will on any customer. That's life.

In the course of being instructed, I'm afraid it works the same way. The "customer" cannot be willfully defiant of accepted training methods and expect to remain at the school. If you were learning piano, and you said to the teacher "I don't want to play chords in front of you", I think that would be considered unreasonable.

While being an instructor is considered part of the "service industry", it is an intrinsically different part, compared to say, a restaurant. Being instructed implies a more active relationship than merely being served.

_________________________"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Why do you dispute my assertion of those who come for tuition being customers? You know that I'm technically correct. If you pay for a service (or goods) you are a customer of that service provider. No if's, but's or maybes. Where is the problem?

Instead of living in the past, try coming into the 21st century. There is nothing wrong with MA in that it teaches a healthier lifestyle (having said that I'm still on 20 a day), but this antediluvian and antiquated mindset so prevalent in a lot of MA service providers is alienating many who would otherwise participate.

So if you genuinely want MA to grow, try to 'tone down' the historical protestations. "There is no master servant relationship except where the situation exists whereby the master employs and pays money to the servant". That quote is from a ruling made by HM Inland Revenue in the 20th century. Do you pay your customers (students)? No I didn't think so, therefor no master servant relationship exists between you.

Quote:Not being rude, but like I have said above attendance is voluntary not compulsory, you do not have the right to enforce your will on any customer. That's life.

In the course of being instructed, I'm afraid it works the same way. The "customer" cannot be willfully defiant of accepted training methods and expect to remain at the school. If you were learning piano, and you said to the teacher "I don't want to play chords in front of you", I think that would be considered unreasonable.

Matt,

You are right, but I might agree to "play chords" alongside you until I felt it appropriate to play solo. That is the difference, the customer makes the decision.

There are two points on this line and those who fall between them. One side says OUR WAY NOW and has methods to achieve that. Another "side" shrugs their shoulders, and in time will seek to alter the incorrect/inappropriate behavior.

How do you tell the difference between NO with a explainable reason, and a NO position that is merely inappropriate... willful, childish for example?

Fine Midnight, they are the customer but as the provider of the service, I can choose who to teach and who not too. If I feel their behavior detracts from my ability to teach the rest of the class effectively, then I will act accordingly. Sorry, but the customer is NOT always right. Especially not if it interferes with my ability to maintain order and respect in my dojo/dojang. They are two of the most ingrained aspects of MA's and should always be maintained. If a student or as you put it, customer, can not grasp this, then they should shop elsewhere. Nuff said.

Scottie

_________________________"The greatest way to live with honor in this world is to be what we pretend to be."

Razorfoot, Harlan will answer for themselves as time permits... I'd like to jump in if I may??? Regardless of the given approach it is always a question of what we choose to ~follow~? If I goto a boot-camp militant dojo, and that approach appeals to me, if I thrive and learn under that method....

First and last I have choosen to take part. Nobody forces us through those doors. The same holds true for a more... "relaxed" approach of teaching/study. A student by choice... choose to follow or go elsewhere for an approach that you accept.

I believe the objection (???) to calling one a customer may be semantic in nature with an ardent philosophic foundation/belief. Customer implys a fundamental financial relationship, theoretically solely upon that basis perhaps? If so the interaction is not one of sharing, evolving a passion, merely a handful of coin...

In keeping with a business model, a customers business is worth "X" in terms of the companies time, energy, effort, services etc.

So what does a business do when the customers "value" starts to exceed the "costs" of having them AS a customer?

Most companies have had to "fire" customers before.

People, for whatever reason, it is no longer cost effective to continue to do business with.

Honestly uncomfortable with viewing martial arts training as wholly business transaction---but if it IS to viewed as such--then BOTH parties have to accept that "its just business" and act accordingly.

IMO viewing training as a strictly business transaction is a poor way to view ones hobby---but if one insists in doing so then that view has implications far beyond what is being discussed---pointedly that view only seems to runs ONE way ..ie

That ONLY the "customer" has rights in a transaction.

Wonder what the reaction would be if a teacher came to a student and said:

"Sorry Bill, I know you enjoy the art and all, know you have been with me a long time, but my new client base is much more lucrative than you, I just can't afford to spend the time with you that I used to.Going to have to let you go--no hard feelings I hope."

My guess is that "its just business" is going to be the LAST thing on someones mind.

Edited by cxt (01/17/0712:26 PM)

_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won.
Huey.

Your viewpoint is shared by many, especially by those who buy and sell martial arts training. Since I don't subscribe to that model, my POV on a 'student saying no' isn't applicable to the argument.

Quote:Razorfoot & Harlan.

Why do you dispute my assertion of those who come for tuition being customers? You know that I'm technically correct. If you pay for a service (or goods) you are a customer of that service provider. No if's, but's or maybes. Where is the problem?

Instead of living in the past, try coming into the 21st century. There is nothing wrong with MA in that it teaches a healthier lifestyle (having said that I'm still on 20 a day), but this antediluvian and antiquated mindset so prevalent in a lot of MA service providers is alienating many who would otherwise participate.

So if you genuinely want MA to grow, try to 'tone down' the historical protestations. "There is no master servant relationship except where the situation exists whereby the master employs and pays money to the servant". That quote is from a ruling made by HM Inland Revenue in the 20th century. Do you pay your customers (students)? No I didn't think so, therefor no master servant relationship exists between you.

Quote:Fine Midnight, they are the customer but as the provider of the service, I can choose who to teach and who not too. If I feel their behavior detracts from my ability to teach the rest of the class effectively, then I will act accordingly. Sorry, but the customer is NOT always right. Especially not if it interferes with my ability to maintain order and respect in my dojo/dojang. They are two of the most ingrained aspects of MA's and should always be maintained. If a student or as you put it, customer, can not grasp this, then they should shop elsewhere. Nuff said.

Scottie

I agree with your points.

One thing we have to remember is that our training can be dangerous and discipline must be maintained. Saying no is ok but a very good reason should follow. The "customer" is not always right and disruptions in class takes away time from the other "customers" and they are paying too. If the "customer" doesn't want to follow the rules they can leave or I will ask them to leave and if they don't want to leave things will have to change or I will have to have the disruptive "customer" removed.

Yes you are right, in that you also have the right to say NO. What I saw in the original posters attitude was a denial of your customers right to say no. This was not a nurturing individual (and a mother to boot, glad I'm not one of her kids) but a dictatorial one. Like OH you've disobeyed me get down and do an unbelievable number of press ups. Tell you what, the second word that would have come out of my mouth under those circumstances would have been off.

What an unbelievable attitude, the woman is a customer for Gods sake, she has a RIGHT to say no, just as anyone else has, including yourselves. I have said this before on an MA forum, but I believe that it requires repeating. The question is: what is a customer? Answer, a customer is someone who; puts a roof over your head, clothes on your back, food on your plate, a car on your driveway and pays for your pension.

They do not get the same benefits from you. Therefore, the customer is KING, whilst you might decide to cut your nose off to spite your face by booting a customer out, if you alienate enough of them or one very influential one, its you who's income will suffer, not theirs. All of this in reality in the name of not losing face. So who now has the big ego?

Where the consumer model breaks down is when either party confuses the difference between wants and needs. In many situations both parties are ignorant to what the real needs are. In some cases, one party may understand the actual need involved. It doesn't take a great deal of skill, insight or vision to give someone what they want. It takes more insight and skill to understand what someone needs. It takes great skill to help someone actually want what they actually need. If the customer believes they are Napoleon I would I be doing them a disservice if I treated them like a king.

Agreed with MNC, students are customers if they pay for our teaching.They pay to get better at the MA simple as that. Not to pamper our ego.

As for the prehistoric 20 press ups type punishment, LOL, perhaps you could have a USMC guard at the dojo door as well….

That’s simple bullying, hidden behind the “character building” excuse

But I also agree with those that have said the students would be asked to leave. I asked loads { and I do mean loads} of students to leave.

I Suppose some of you would slap them about a bit first, to ensure they didn’t come back?

We often state that as a high grade MA we should demonstrate humility. Patience and even mildness…… then when someone disagrees with us ,and actually refuses as is there right, we turn into a tyrant!!!!!How wonderfully old fashioned of some of you, I hope you get sued.

Sounds like she may well bugger off the give the enterprise an awful reputation if she isn't given the courtesy she is reasonably in a position to expect. OK, I don't want an argument over this but facts are facts. No customers = no MA organisation, reduced numbers = reduced income. Brassed off customers = submissions to the IRS about excess undeclared income. Yes this has happened in the UK + no MA organisation, MA proprietor in Jail, family without a home and no income. Does that sound like an equitable outcome? I didn't think so.

When you agree to train or study in a school you agree to accept the teaching methods. If you don't like them then you have the right to go elsewhere.

Your refusal to adhere to the teaching methods can lead to a breakdown in discipline and THE WASTING OF SOMEONE ELSE'S TIME AND MONEY. How often have you been paired with a partner who doesn't want to train? How often have you been trying to train and there's a pair of giggling girlies who'd rather talk about Johnny Depp's manhood than do the drills or padwork? And your money is floating out of the window by the hour...

The inital poster was speaking of a 'customer' who wanted help[ to pass an exam which was, presumably, costing her more money. The tuition was taking place after normal time (if I am correct) and she refused, so she was wasting the instructor's time. The instructor can now say, "Well, you aren't financially worth the extra effort, you've got your money's worth in class and now you can pay for the grading and fail and pay again..."

_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Sure, I wouldn't argue with your logic. What I would argue with is the mindset which wants to deny the customer their right to say no. I guess that most of us who post here live in a free and democratic society, where the individual has the RIGHT to say no, I'm not going to do that, whatever 'that' happens to be. Failure to accept the individuals rights leads the way to a dictatorship type situation, which has never been acceptable to any free thinking and fair minded society. The situation in Iraq being just the latest example of many throughout history.

MA instructors are just that, instructors. They aren't drill sergeants or regimental sergeant majors, and the dojo isn't a parade ground.

Everybody has the right to say 'no'. They just have to understand the consequences. A financial transaction buys you a certain amount of training, or time, or whatever is specified in a contract. If you refuse training you renege on that contract...and are in different territory.

Something to consider: a financial contract doesn't begin to address the social contract.

"the customer is always right" This statement comes from an inflated ego in the customer IMO. I'm not attacking any specific person when I say that; I'm referencing my experience with the public. I work with software that has encrypted files, and we've had repeated requests for the encryption keys. Everytime they are asked for, they are told NO. We can't give them out because it would cause security issues. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. However, if the "customer is always right" we would have to give them out each time they're asked for. Back to the dojo. My instructor doens't accept a "no". His method is: if you can, do it. If you can't, try your best. Consumers have rights and I think everyone understands that, however, most sales, regardless of the type are a contract. As most people know, when a contract is signed, some consumer rights are given up to enter the contract. The right to say "no" may have been given up in this specific case. We don't know the details so we can't say for sure. A consumer is still responsible for researching what they are purchasing and making sure the product is right for them.

_________________________
Brown Belt. Should have my Black by Summer 2008.
Jhoon Rhee system

<<not if it interferes with my ability to maintain order and respect in my dojo/dojang.

Now the crux of the issue Scottie... Help explain...IYV/IYE how the simple statement NO is non-respectful towards the dojo at large?

Jeff

As I stated in my earlier post, if there is an explanation for why they refused, it is sometimes a legitimate occurence and they can sit out for a bit till they can compose themself. If they are simply refusing for no reason, simply to be argumentative or simply to cause a power struggle, that can be very disruptive. I don't see why that is difficult to understand.

When is it acceptable, in any other teacher/student relationship for a student to refuse a teacher without a legitimate reason? If health, safety, or morals are involved, fine. If they simply refuse just for the sake of saying no? Is that ok to do to a professor at college? A teacher in high school, some one training you for a certification towards your job or career? No. If you choose not to learn, I can and will choose not to teach you and spend my time with someone who wants and is willing to learn. To me, it is that simple.

Scottie

_________________________"The greatest way to live with honor in this world is to be what we pretend to be."

We keep saying that some folks don't appraoch their dojos like a business---and YOU keep insisting that they MUST do so.

But many people DON'T view it that or behave that way or look at it that way--so most of what you post is irrelevent to many of us.

We don't look at that way at all.

2nd Problem, I went back and read the orginal post--ther was NOTHING in it that strikes me as being a "drill instructeor."NOTHING at all---your dragging in all sorts of stuff that orignal post did NOT.

To me. IMO, the first post was a perfect example of a snotty attitude that I personally simply would not wish to have in my school.From a BUSINESS perscpective THAT PERSON WITH THAT ATTITUDE is bad "PR" for my business.Let them say what they want--chances are anyone that knows them will consider my refusel to deal with their drama a GOOD thing--might even get me MORE business.

3td problem--your conflating loseing a student to loseing your house and going to jail.NONE of that is in the orginal post--waaaayyy beyond its scope.

Plus, I already gave you several perfect valid business reasons that an owner might wish to "fire" a student.

You ignored them.

Don't mind having discussions.

DO mind when people start getting irrational and not reading other folks posts.

Happy to keep talking--as long as your actually willing to discuss the situation and not just keep endlessly "drum beating" a flawed point.

Edited by cxt (01/18/0710:36 AM)

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I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won.
Huey.

Well have it your own way, its no skin off my nose. All it takes is one brassed off (former) customer to report suspected irregularities to the tax people and a dojo owner could end up in deep brown smelly stuff. That is if they haven't been business like in their approach to running the show.

Oh and I never said that anyone 'had' to be profit orientated it isn't compulsory, it just seems silly to not make some whilst your at it.

If as you say, "many don't look at it that way", how do you look at it? Serious question, I don't know, so if you have no objection I'd appreciate a serious answer.

Why don't you start another thread on that topic...as it doesn't seem at all related to the original topic?

Quote:CXT,

Well have it your own way, its no skin off my nose. All it takes is one brassed off (former) customer to report suspected irregularities to the tax people and a dojo owner could end up in deep brown smelly stuff. That is if they haven't been business like in their approach to running the show.

Oh and I never said that anyone 'had' to be profit orientated it isn't compulsory, it just seems silly to not make some whilst your at it.

If as you say, "many don't look at it that way", how do you look at it? Serious question, I don't know, so if you have no objection I'd appreciate a serious answer.

Of course its relevant and related. If someone starts throwing individuals out its a racing certainty that resentment will be generated. In a fair number of cases that resentment could well be articulated through that individual reporting irregularities to the appropriate bodies, irrespective of whether there is any truth there. Its what is sometimes referred to as 'generating a revenge mentality'.

Laura, I think it has reached that point now. I do not see any further productive discussion coming from this but hey, I am the one who thinks a dojo/dojang needs order and respect to be an effective one so what do I know?

Scottie

_________________________"The greatest way to live with honor in this world is to be what we pretend to be."

You probably know a hell of a lot. Its just that I believe we have encountered what is known as 'diversity of opinion'. All I've done is to point out potential pitfalls in taking what I believe is a too strict or if you prefer 'militaristic' approach to what is essentially someones hobby.

Going back to the original post, the woman in question wasn't disrupting a class, as this occurred after the 'formal training', so no other customer was inconvenienced. It was that I took the view that the original poster was looking to go way over the top just because a member of their Dojo was exercising one of their their basic human rights.

Not all people train for the same reasons, and I think that is something we all tend to lose sight of. Maybe because we are all somewhat focused on our own reasons and therefore think that everyone else is the same as us. For instance I train in order to get as far as I can, but, I'll know when I get there and at that point I'll stay where I am quite happily. If at that point whoever is my instructor tries to push me further then I'll stop altogether on the basis that I'll not be pushed by anyone. The same applies to when I'm weight training in my gym, I'm the one in charge of my body and when it tells me its had enough I listen to it. The woman concerned transpired to be in her late 30's, so maybe she had reached the stage where despite asking for additional tuition her body told her no, and she listened to it. That is no reason to discipline her or throw her out.

I don't think anyone is going to be able to add anything new unless and until we know more about the original situation as it basically comes down to whether or not the woman was saying no to be disruptive or because she had an honest reason to say no.

Either way, I'm locking this thread unless someone can give me a good reason to keep it open for discussion.