Phil the Elder, thank's for your comments. Very well said. I know there is many here online who believe in the Sovereignty of God but stay away from commenting. He chooses whom He pleases when He pleases. All are born under the curse of Adam. That God saves some is the miracle, for He could have saved none and still be Almighty God. To the rest He does nothing to them but allows or permits them to continue their path, their own destiney. But so call believers, not unbelievers, argue that God has no right to do what He wants, that He chooses no one from the foundations of the world, that in time they have the right, in their fallen state, to choose Him if they so desire, when Scripture clearly states they are children of wrath.

God chose the Elect to be in in his family prior to the creation of the world as stated in the first chapter of Ethesians. And Christ was sent to redeem only the elect that were pre-chosen. Every one else is just ground clutter, they my serve some purpose in God's plan but nothing else and there is nothing they can do to ever change their status. The problem is we don't know who is or is not among the elect so you have to evangelize to everyone. For the non-ellect It is not like they will be tourchered for ever, they will simply be instantaneously destroyed with out pain in the lake of fire. Hell is everlasting separation for God and nothing more than that. Stop listening to false teachers.

God is under no constraint, nor obligation, nor necessity or law to do what He so pleases with His creation. ****

But we do find the Law, along with the sacrifices given as a SCHOOLMASTER to bring us to Christ.

If God was under no obligation, then why on earth was the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the World.

God has most graceously SHOWN us..drawn pictures, and made an everlasting Covenant with Abraham. God who swore by Himself, a God who cannot lie....and after Abraham gave then the LAW as a schoolmaster to bring sinners to Himself.

If God just wanted to pick you out of a hat, there would have been no need whatsoever for the LAW.....or the purpose of the law, to conviction of sin.

God is under no constraint, nor obligation, nor necessity or law to do what He so pleases with His creation. That He chooses to save anyone is purely by His sovereign act on His part, caused by nothing outside Himself, and determined by nothing but His own mere good pleasure, for He "worketh all things after the counsel of His own will" Eph. 1:11. "For who has first given to Him, and it shall be recompensed to him again?" Rom. 11:34,35. It is impossible to bring the Almighty under obligations to the creature. But Kathr and others have obligated Him to a law of man, free will. Even when they cannot find free will in Scripture they fight to put God under obligation to men.

Jerry my answer to you. God does not created people to torcher them in hell. There is no passage that says such things. God permits for people to continue to be born and all born fall under the curse of Adam. All are spiritually dead unable to change themselves. "by one man's disobedience the many were made sinners" Rom. 5:19, or in other words, "Through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death passed unto all men, for all sinned" Rom. 5:12. or "Through one trespass the judgment came unto all men to condemnation" Rom. 5:18. It is as if God had said, "if sin is to enter, let it enter by one man, so that righteouness also may enter by one Man.

1 Corinthians 1:21For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

I only care what SCRIPTURE says, not NESS, not CALVIN, or anyone for that matter.

What does God say.....and the only thing MarkV can bring to the table to PROVE God created some men to torture is the wisdom of men....not one scripture says God created anyone to send to Hell. He can't find it...so he's hoping you'll believe meer men trying to work out their own salvation....which has yet to be Judged at the judgement seat of Christ.

Amen Alan!!!No one on here that I have ever seen has done that.BUT Markv, you have certainly accused!

Kath, Rhonda......

You go girls, awesome posts!Just wondering when certain persons will accept the truth of Christ. That all are welcome to receive his gift. All they have to do is just ask.BUT some want to complicate it and condemn saying God really made some persons for hell and don't want to provide scripture to back it up.God didn't create man to go to hell. Other wise why would he bother stepping out of the portals of Glory, take on fleshly form and allow man to crudify him? Yep, God loves his creation that much. ALL of it.

Quote by Ness, "Antidote Against Arminianism" "May not the Sovereign Lord on High Dispense His favors as He will, Choose some to life, while others die, And yet be just and gracious still?Shall man reply against the Lord, And call his Makers ways unjust? The thunder whose dread word Can crush a thousand worlds to dust. But, O my soul, if truths so bright Should dazzle and confound they sight, Yet still His written will obey, And wait the great decisive day!"The marvel of marvels is not that God, in His infinite love and justice, has not elected all of this guilty race to be saved, but that He has elected any. They all deserved justice and not mercy.

"I also know about the heretics who strip God, of His deity when they teach that He beg's for man to have mercy on Him and choose Him. His hands are tight He cannot do nothing, because man is in control"

Who on earth may they be, these heretics?

I have NEVER heard anyone, let alone a Christian, suggest any of these things:

... God begs for man's mercy... God's hands are tied... God can do nothing (I correct the double negative)... Man is in control

Hell is same as death. And death is synomymous to "pit" "grave" "destruction" God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Ezekiel 33:1 Let me remind you the verse "The wages of sin is death." Romans 6:23. This means the moment adam sinned they died spiritually! This are verses proof that hell is same as death, grave and pit. Remember the last enemy to be destroyed is death 1 Cor. 15:26 Read also this verse Prov. 5:5, Prov.7:27, Prov.27:20, Psalms 18:5, Isaiah 14:15 and Rev 1:8 Many many more. Hell and Death describes as one. Check King James concordance. or read "To God be the Glory Book"

"I also know about the heretics who strip God, of His deity when they teach that He beg's for man to have mercy on Him and choose Him. His hands are tight He cannot do nothing, because man is in control.---MarkV. on 7/24/09

Actually no one need to beg God at all for Mercy. FAITH in Jesus Christ and His sacrifice is all God requires of man.

The Mercy seat is there! come as you are!

Why beg for a Gift that has already been presented. Just take it my friends...it's yours for the taking. AND it brings Glory to God that you simply received it...not begged for it at all!

Calvinism never really completely severed from the RCC. It just REFORMED many of her teachings.

There is a difference beteween Reformed Theology and Reformers. Luther was a reformer too,but certainly not of Reformed Theology.*****

Guess thats why religious christianity believes there is a "god" who tortures people forever because they are so wrapped up in their religious babblings identity and following religious sects starting, breaking up, forming something else, and the myriad of other religious things all created from traditions of men Mark 7:7

Thankfully The Father in heaven has endless mercy for HIS creation and Dante's fable of a hell stays with the father of lies and the ministers who teach that poison

Samuel, I believe I have answered to you kindly. I don't believe I have disrespected you. I know we don't agree with many things since I don't believe in dead people been asleep and their spirit dead, or Sat. Sabbath, When you say that some don't know church History if you are refering to me, your wrong. First of all, I know who God is. I also know church history, the RCC, the reformers, what they teach, and do know about the millions who have died, got hung, killed, beheaded, inprisoned, for keeping the faith and the truth of Scripture. "I also know about the heretics who strip God, of His deity when they teach that He beg's for man to have mercy on Him and choose Him. His hands are tight He cannot do nothing, because man is in control.

kath what has moved you to act as you do? don't you think we heard enough of your complains? Why not ask a question instead of attacking the person? This way someone can learn something. I'm pretty sure others will answer if you give them a chance.

Wycliffe belived in predestination, and election by God as the means of salvation. And challenge the Pope that he might not even be one of the elect that God chose.You don't know because you don't know what election, or predestination means, because you have never studied it as I have stated before.---MarkV. on 7/24/09

MarkV Predestination is not something to be STUDIED but BELIEVED..RE: Ephesians 1 SONSHIP....having nothing to do with having your name picked out of a hat.

Wycliffe, believed God gave KINGS to rule nations...not popes.

Wycliffe translated scripture so the everyone could know God's word.

You prove my point that the TULIP was DEVELOPED AFTER....therefore we conclude even Paul did not teach it!

Wycliffe believed dominion was founded in GRACE + NOTHING. Meaning Jesus Christ is HEAD of the Church, His Body. Our obedience is to Christ and HE ALONE! Wycliffe believed in the INDIVIDUAL Priesthood of the believer AKA: YOU having a personal intimate relationship with the Lord, that the Lord disciplined His Saint.

Calvin believed dominion was founded in a Theocracy, where he had dominion over people, he was your conscience, and interpreter of scripture. Calvin was head of Geneva, operating as HEAD....AND man's conscience AKA: legalism.

He punished for disobedience, making himself Judge and Jury! as did the Puritans...burning witches at the stake???

Kathr, every time you write you proof my point that you know nothing about Calvinism, reform, and who were the reformers. In fact Wycliffe was one of the first reformers, and sure he didn't believe in Calvin because he was not even born yet or the tulip becuase the tulip had not been introduced until it was put together by the church at the Synod of Dort in 1619 to combat the five points brought by the followers of James Arminius. Wycliffe belived in predestination, and election by God as the means of salvation. And challenge the Pope that he might not even be one of the elect that God chose. You don't know because you don't know what election, or predestination means, because you have never studied it as I have stated before.

Almost all protestant churches orginated from Calvin's teachings and through the years many have gone back to the teachings of the RCC.MarkV**

Again MarkV, isn't it interesting that those who came out of Calvinism according to you went BACK into the teaching of the RCC. MarkV, Calvinism never really completely severed from the RCC. It just REFORMED many of her teachings.

There is a difference beteween Reformed Theology and Reformers. Luther was a reformer too,but certainly not of Reformed Theology.

Kathr, I don't know why your are thanking me. My opinion from hearing you speak is that you still do not know one thing about Calvinism teachings. You don't know what the difference is between Calvinism and Hyper Calvinism. Almost all protestant churches orginated from Calvin's teachings and through the years many have gone back to the teachings of the RCC. Works for salvation, and traditions. The true Calvinist churches have not bend one knee to changing their believes. They believe that from beginning to end salvation is all of the Lord. That He is ruler of heaven and earth and all that is there. He does not seat waiting for people to love Him and have mercy on Him, He is the One who gives mercy and love to those who never loved Him.

18To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Satan is not literally the father of anyone...that is a figure of speech. For satan to be the father of anyone, satan needed to procreate with humanity.WRONG!

God is telling Paul the GOSPEL will open their eyes, and trun them from the power Satan has over them and turn them to God.

OUR JOB is to preach the Gospel to the lost. Our job is NOT to turn people away from God and preach that God predestined some to hell.

Thank you MarkV. However, don't you call false doctrine false? Have you stated Catholocism is false? I do believe you have! Therefore, you are guilty of what you accuse me of. I suppost the RCC here on line would call you a cancer too.

God did not create any souls for the purpose of torturing them...That lie itself is cancer! And you continue to spread this cancer through the blogs!

Please know the difference between a lie being cancer and accusing a person of being cancer. MarkV, when you can't defend scripture you attack the person. This is happening over and over here, and I believe many here are noticing it and calling you on it.

I have said what I think your beleif means, and leads to, You tell me I have misunderstood you. I've asked you many times to explain further, snd say where my understanding is incorrect, but you can't or won't ... certainly you don't, and I wonder why.

Alan, here is what you said was better for me to do, "If you say "Actually Alan, I meant something else, and therefore your whole understanding of what I said is faulty" it might help."That is the way I answered you, the way you wanted me to. What is now wrong with my answer? I did not lie to you, all I did was answer with truth. Oh by the way I didn't tell Gina 7 she had talked bad only to reframe from doing so. If I hurt your feelings again I sure am sorry Alan. I keep doing that to you. That is why it is better not to answer you at all.

Alan, you push push push, and I have decided to give up again. You are right on everything and I am wrong. No more please. Peace I give you. I don't want to hurt your feelings again. I concide, I surrender to you. Hope that is not confusing.

Kathr, as I said before you are a cancer who goes all over to increase anger among brothers and sisters on every blog. You really need some help. I will pray for you That God's Spirit convicts your heart of sin so that you can be right with God.

Samuel, your last paragraph is correct. You said, "The point that having a sin nature removes our free will denies the power of GOD.

The HOLY SPIRIT is to convict all people of sin. The HOLY SPIRIT can bring everyone to a saving knowledge of JESUS. When the HOLY SPIRIT convicts a person then that person is given by the power of GOD the right to choose which way they will go."He is not given the right to choose but is given the reason to choose Christ. He realizes he has sinned against God and needs redemption. When lost he didn't realize that. He needed the Holy Spirit to work in his heart and change it for Christ by making him aware of his sin and the need for Christ. Otherwise he remains the same.

The point that having a sin nature removes our free will denies the power of GOD.

The HOLY SPIRIT is to convict all people of sin. The HOLY SPIRIT can bring everyone to a saving knowledge of JESUS. When the HOLY SPIRIT convicts a person then that person is given by the power of GOD the right to choose which way they will go.

Alan, here is the reason you act as if you are confused, the reason is that you don't want to accept any Truth because you believe you have the Truth already no matter what the Bible has to say about it.MarkV

Alan MarkV has the same issues. Sometimes claiming his confusion is that he doesn't speak or understand english.

Alan...Hyper Calvinism is a false doctrine....maybe it should be left alone rather than giving MarkV a platform to continue to spread this horrible Accursed gospel called a LIE!

Who then is the FATHER of LIES!!!! MarkV, before saying others have satan as their father....LISTEN UP!!!!

Repent before it's too late... YOU are cought in the snare of Satan!!!!

Actually Alan, "I meant what I said, and therefore your whole understanding of what I said is faulty" Does that help you? You said to answer you and I did the way you wanted me to. Hope you are not confused anymore.Why don't you put aside your childish questions and put some passages to argue why my answers are wrong. And why don't you say, "Mark, I believe you are wrong because this passage (and you give passage) says that you are wrong." Opinions are good when they come from Scripture.

"You don't understand it so you will not even try to understand it. What else can it be?" How can I understand it, when you refuse to tell me whether I have understood you correctly, or misunderstood you?

Does mine of 7/17 correctly reflect your belief? This is the third time I have asked.

Jerry, you have to believe it, for it comes from the Bible,1. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desire"2. God may perhaps grant that they will repent and come to know the Truth, and they may escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will."3. We know that we are of God, and the whole world is in the power of the evil one."4. Who can say, "I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?"5. Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins."6. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the Truth is not in us...If we say we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us."

Alan, here is the reason you act as if you are confused, the reason is that you don't want to accept any Truth because you believe you have the Truth already no matter what the Bible has to say about it. No teacher can make someone want to understand. So you refuse with everything you have to not listen and to fight back with opinions only. I have given you Scripture after Scripture. Written the whole passage many times. Given nothing but Truth right from the Bible, and because you have a way of thinking already, you have made up your mind no matter how much truth is thrown at you by the Spirit you will refuse out of pure pride. You don't understand it so you will not even try to understand it. What else can it be?

Alan, why are you always confused? Is my language hard to understand? "Alan, of course the fall was in God's plan. He didn't make Adam sin, he permitted him to fall. He knew he would. If the fall was not in God's plan, why would Jesus be a sacrifice for sin before the foundation of the world? No one was created yet. God did not introduce sin, Satan and then Adam did. He knew they would fail. If God didn't want sin to enter, He would have created a plan without sin been possible. He is God and could do anything He wanted. But He didn't."Alan, it is not my theology it is Scripture. Only Adam and Eve had a free will, for they had no sin nature. All descendants of Adam have a sinful nature from Adam's fall.

Some people seem to think that we are the only beings that exist there are also the Angels/Demons. (Just my view) , God don't need to tell/write every single reason thought or summary he is God it is his workmanship just as you played with lego and made your own play objects we are the same to God if he like it he will keep it if he don't then he will destroy it and build it again, the difference is he made the substance of his world from nothing!

Just living in that mystery make you understand anything and everything is possible after all there are things that are just explanatory!

MarkV: Believe it or not, I actually agree with some of what you wrote:

(1) God did not cause Adam to sin.

(2) Knowing the future, God knew Adam would sin, but He made him anyway.

(3) God made provision for Adam's sin before it occurred - "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." (Rev 13:8)

Am I to understand though, that you believe that God did not intend that some others be afforded this provision for reconciliation, and that they are doomed to eternal torture for no greater sins than Adam's?

Eric, you do not understand the doing of God. In the beginning He chose the slaves, and God raised Pharoah for one purpose. Now think, many of Pharoah people we good people following orders. With a free will but they all died in the waters. And all through Scripture God demands that even women and children be killed. They too had a free will, they too died. When Paul was told to take the gospel to a certain area and not another, those people were denied of the gospel. They had free will, what good was it? And when God chose Jacob over Esau, what good was Esau free will? no good. All through Scripture things are done the way God wants them done.Jesus statment does not contradict the actions of God the Father.

Predestined to be called in this lifetime to OBEY The Father in heaven ...because this is not the only time for salvation per Gods Word ...unlike religion of men who preach the lie that now is the only time for salvation ...all hoping you will follow their flavor/brand/idea of a God from the Holy Bible

MANY are called FEW are chosen

Christ ministered to multiple thousands YET only 120 remained after his death ...false ministers sell their lies that they call and "save" people to Christ and self professing christianity cannot SEE the irony in the lies of men

Did God plan the Fall?Or did He have foreknowledge of the Fall?There is a lot of difference between the two.

Since you do not allow for FreeWill, it must be, in your theology, that God actually planned that A & E should sin. But you suggest that God permitted them to sin .... that means they must have had FreeWill.

Now you say "He is God and could do anything He wanted. But He didn't" Put that in the present tense, and it means that God could be a dictator of all that happens, yet chooses not to, and allows FreeWill

Alan, of course the fall was in God's plan. He didn't make Adam sin, he permitted him to fall. He knew he would. If the fall was not in God's plan, why would Jesus be a sacrifice for sin before the foundation of the world? No one was created yet. God did not introduce sin, Satan and then Adam did. He knew they would fail. If God didn't want sin to enter, He would have created a plan without sin been possible. He is God and could do anything He wanted. But He didn't.That God knows who His elect are has been known to Him also from the foundation of the world. "Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world" Eph. 1:4.

God has given to all people free will,it is by our choice whether we believe or not.We choose to rebel.disobey.God is spirit,outside of time,God is all knowing,so he knows who will, and who wont. This is the only part of predistination that is real,meaning that God knows who will and who wont.

MarkV, there is absolutely no continuity between the God who exterminates one nation in favor of another as described in Judges, and Jesus who prayed from the Cross, "Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do." You may attempt to reconcile the two, but you will only convince someone who is irrational.

Eric, "God show no partiality" in context is talking about partiality of nations are people by Jesus in doing good where ever He went. Whosoever fears Him and works righteousness, these are people who belong to God. They are accepted by Him. They give evidence of their faith. God treats people different for many reasons. The extermination of the Canaanite children was an act He did that He didn't do to many others. Israel was to be protected and not the Canaanites. God was inpartial for a reason. It was actually an act of mercy and love to the world at large, but it was also an act of mercy to the children themselves. What awaited these children if they had been allowed to live, was something vastly worse than death.

God made man in his image but man has tended to represent in a bad light the gift of God. The only thing God predestined is the form and substance of his children as he formed them to be. That be the reason that those that would attain are told, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Those who attain are like in Malachi 3:16, and those in Rev 3:5 whose names will not be blotted "out of the book of life". Is there be such a thing as an elect, I picture them to be humble like our Lord and like, "See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God."

Nana, we bother to teach not only because we are commanded to do that but all who will come to Christ have to hear the word of God. Without the word they will not hear. Without the Word they will not have faith. For faith comes from hearing. Many of the elect have not come to Christ yet. Many are living a life in rebellion to God, but just as Paul was hit by the Lord and brought to salvation, so will all those who make up the elect of God. God knows who they are and when they will come to Christ. He knows by what means, and at what place. It will all happen as God has ordained it to be. Nothing can change what God saw from enternity. For it is written that their names have already been written in the book of life. Peace

If predestination is true, why bother teaching man at all? John 6:45: "It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me." Even Judas was taught and befriended by Jesus, else we could not speak of a betrayal. Why else, "Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these?", "Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me?", "Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me?", why, that's how we learn, by repetition and reaffirmation.Deuteronomy, chapter 11"And know ye this day: for I speak not with your children which have not known, and which have not seen the chastisement of the LORD your God"

Jerry, 2. here is what he said, "After the fall of Man all men were predestined for hell because all were born into sin. None could make a sacrifice for their own lives because they are not worthy."In the Reform view God intervenes to positively and actively work grace in their souls and bring them to saving faith. He unilaterally regenerates the elect and insures their salvation. In the case of the reprobate He does not work evil in them or prevents them from coming to faith. He passes over them, living them to their own sinful devices. In these view there is no semetry of God's divine action. The reprobate, who are passed over by God, are ultimately doomed and their damanation is certain, since all were born into sin.

Samuel, you are wrong. Luther and Calvin were in one accord. I have taken a ten year course on this subject and know you are wrong. While you might get information from outside sources you need to study the teachings in order to know what is believed and by whom during the Reformation. Those that are condemned were born in sin on account of the fall. The real miracle here is that God saves anyone at all. He could have left everyone continue their path. What bothers those who oppose are two things, 1 Why didn't He save everyone, because if He saves one, He should save everyone or its not fair. 2. People want to be in control of their own lives. They want the power to say yes or no. They don't want God to decide for them.

No. The Bible clearly states that Hell and the Lake of Fire were created for the devil and his fallen angels. The Bible also says that GOD is willing that none of mankind perish (in Hell and the Lake of Fire). But, if a person has continually refused GOD and his Offer of Salvation, then that person COULD end up being used for GOD's Purpose to execute Judgment and showcase His Power and Glory, as He did with the "mighty" Pharoah of Egypt during the time of Moses. GOD gives mankind the "power" to choose between Life and Death. GOD does not delight that people go to Hell in Torments. But, if someone stobbornly clings to their sin and evil, they damn themselves, and GOD does not force Himself on anyone.

Jerry, the only way a person can answer this questions of yours is by studying what Calvinism is. The view that many here claim is called Hyper-Calvinism. That is a view that teaches that God positively and actively intervenes in the lives of the elect to work grace in their hearts and bring them to faith. Likewise, in the case of the reprobates. He works evil in the hearts of the reprobates and actively prevents them from coming to faith. This view was not taught by Calvin, Luther and the other reformers. This is the view that many here have of Predestination. Many want a one sentence answer but it has to be explained what the true reformers believed in. To understand what they believed in check out the first sentence of Exzucuh wrote-

I would not assume that all people calling themselves Calvinists understand the same thing, plus I can't say for sure who really understood and represents John Calvin correctly. We can assume we do. So, what does the Bible teach? The Bible does not say "that God creates some people solely for the purpose of torturing them, without any hope of redemption." Jesus wants us to love and do good to all people, including our enemies > this does not sound like God wants to torture people. "For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe." (1 Timothy 4:10) Check out the Bible. It deals with so much more than just a handful of issues.

I don't know what calvinist predestination teaches, but the BIBLE teaches that God created Hell for Satan - humans chose to go Satan's way, instead of God's, so they now can go to Hell. Human's have chosen Hell, God did NOT choose that for us - God wishes that ALL people be saved. The reality is that MOST people will end up in Hell - NARROW is the way of SALVATION and FEW that find it, and WIDE is the way of DISTRUTION and MANY that find it.

After the fall of Man all men were predestined for hell because all were born into sin. None could make a sacrifice for their own lives because they are not worthy. God is a consumingfire, David said if I make my bed in Hell God is there, The consuming Fire of God is torment to the unsaved, Satan and his demons, But God makes his ministers flames of Fire, They are like brer Rabbit born and bred in the brier patch. Every mans work will be tried with fireIf you are wood, hay and stubble you got problems, But if you are like Gold tried in the fire, pure refined so God can see his image in you the Fire cannot burn you, you live by the fire.

It absolutely does. It teaches that a principled holy God does things according to his pleasure rather than his purposed immutable loving holiness. Hypercalvinism actually is a blasphemy of God's character.