orald wrote:All this talk of martial arts remind me of the scene in Indianna Jones and the lost cabinat thingy, where some arab dude spins his swords all fancy like that...so Indy shoots him down with one bullet. Get my meaning?

Also, look at Taraze- cut down with a simple lasgun beam...or Nayla for that matter.

Yes you are right, but if one does not exercises nor practices a Martial Art one can become a useless "Jedi" like this guy (I'm not bashing them, I was the first in line for everyone of the prequels):

after 4 years of Sport Fencing and 3 of kendo my reflexes are like the ones of Spiderman, I could have recoved that lightsaber in middair. If I ever confront an armed guy I'll tell him: "here is my wallet, here are the car keys", I want to die like the old lady in Titanic

Prana means "breath" or "air". Some modern yoga teachers and holistics refer to "prana" as some sort of energy present in the air, but the translation would be just "breath". So all of the breathing exercises in Yoga are usually labeled under the "pranayama" section, on which "prana = breath, ayama = interval", so pranayama is an interruption of the breath.(Pranayamas are very subtle and powerful techniques and they match many aspects of the Bene Gesserit way)

Bindu means "dot". Usually the use of the word Bindu is related to the bindu chakra, an energy centre located near the top of the head and considered the 8th and secret chakra, quite an exoteric subject on Yoga. Bindu has a lot to do with focus, since many focus exercises concentrate on a dot or specific object, hence "Bindu".

It appears to me Prana Bindu have much more to do with Yoga practice (and many references in the book estates so) than with martial arts.A combination of focus, awareness and inner control, totally yogic and more of internal practice than a fighting technique.

I'm looking foward to discuss the influence of Yoga in Herbert's saga, whether he studied it previously or not, pls check my topic at the Bene Gesserit section.

Getting back to the heart of the original question, I've often thought just how shields would effect personal combat. The need for controlled speed would make long weapons seem too difficult to use effectively. Paul uses a rapier in Dune, which has a blade of about 3 feet--lunging in for a timed thrust over that distance, while controlling the enemies weapon, would take forever (in fencing time)! It's tough enough at full speed. The 20 cm chrysknives and kindjals make more sense, as up close all sorts of grappling can happen that can facilitate a slower thrust or cut, and there's just less distance to target to cover. The Fremen have some sort of pike, if I remember correctly from Children of Dune. I have no staff training, but I just can't imagine how using a weapon like that is efficient.

But relative motion isn't taken into account with shields, I'm pretty sure. Doesn't Paul kill Jamis essentially letting Jamis fall on his knife, which was something he'd been trained to do? If that's the case, then I suppose longer weapons could work just fine, if a fighter were trying to get their opponent to advance into his counter-attack. Still, that would make full-on battles just a mass of individual duels.

ConreezyDos wrote:But relative motion isn't taken into account with shields, I'm pretty sure. Doesn't Paul kill Jamis essentially letting Jamis fall on his knife, which was something he'd been trained to do? If that's the case, then I suppose longer weapons could work just fine, if a fighter were trying to get their opponent to advance into his counter-attack. Still, that would make full-on battles just a mass of individual duels.

That's sort of the point; it's why the Sardaukar were so feared, as each of them was worth 10 regular troops, or something like that. It meant that superior combat personnel basically wouldn't lose to their inferiors, which plays into the general meritocracy we see in Dune. This all goes away during Leto II's time, of course, and once lasguns become the norm macro battle strategy no doubt supplants individual skill as the winning factor.

georgiedenbro wrote:That's sort of the point; it's why the Sardaukar were so feared, as each of them was worth 10 regular troops, or something like that. It meant that superior combat personnel basically wouldn't lose to their inferiors, which plays into the general meritocracy we see in Dune.

If the Guild is going to make you pay a million for every soldier you send to another planet, and a million more for every gun, who are you going to send? one thousand couch potatoes with guns, or one thousand really hard guys with knives?

ConreezyDos wrote:But relative motion isn't taken into account with shields, I'm pretty sure. Doesn't Paul kill Jamis essentially letting Jamis fall on his knife, which was something he'd been trained to do? If that's the case, then I suppose longer weapons could work just fine, if a fighter were trying to get their opponent to advance into his counter-attack. Still, that would make full-on battles just a mass of individual duels.

That's sort of the point; it's why the Sardaukar were so feared, as each of them was worth 10 regular troops, or something like that. It meant that superior combat personnel basically wouldn't lose to their inferiors, which plays into the general meritocracy we see in Dune. This all goes away during Leto II's time, of course, and once lasguns become the norm macro battle strategy no doubt supplants individual skill as the winning factor.

Yeah, but if defeating a shielded opponent requires so much focus and energy (and time), it's a wonder to me that anything gets accomplished by set-piece battles at all. (That's assuming that sort of thing happens outside of Arrakeen, but that's what I thought the Sardaukar were for--combat that wasn't a War of Assassins. Maybe I'm wrong, though, and military engagements are generally much smaller in scope than I'm thinking.) Are the Sardaukar more numerous than any one House army as well as better quality?

These details rankle me because western fencing is mostly for civilian dueling, and military style swordsmanship was much different. The Japanese styles I practice have a more battlefield bent, but they incorporate a lot of speed. The amount of physical control it would take to actually defeat a shielded opponent boggles my mind.

Dune wrote:"What do the Great Houses of the Landsraad fear most?" Paul asked. "Theyfear most what is happening here right now on Arrakis--the Sardaukar pickingthem off one by one. That's why there is a Landsraad. This is the glue of theGreat Convention. Only in union do they match the Imperial forces."

The Sardaukar could overcome any Great House standing alone, but it seems that the entire Landsraad combined might be their equal in strength.

It does seem true that shielded battles would last longer than battle involving missiles and lasguns, and the death toll would take a while to rack up. But what rankles you about this? It's true there's no way our current fencing forms (which are all sports, not martial combat techniques) would be of any use in the Empire, and to whatever extent Frank left it up to our imagination we do know that shielded combat was the norm among the nobles. This is one reason why the Fremen held as decisive advantage over the Sardaukar anywhere on the desert - no shields. But even shielded combat likely makes use of speed; the goal would be to use speed to feint and counterfeint, and to even use momentum to unbalance your opponent or knock him down, much as we might see in sword and shield combat.

I've studied fencing myself, as well as kali and knife fighting, and of these fencing and kali surely would be irrelevant when faced with a shield.

Prana means "breath" or "air". Some modern yoga teachers and holistics refer to "prana" as some sort of energy present in the air, but the translation would be just "breath". So all of the breathing exercises in Yoga are usually labeled under the "pranayama" section, on which "prana = breath, ayama = interval", so pranayama is an interruption of the breath.(Pranayamas are very subtle and powerful techniques and they match many aspects of the Bene Gesserit way)

Bindu means "dot". Usually the use of the word Bindu is related to the bindu chakra, an energy centre located near the top of the head and considered the 8th and secret chakra, quite an exoteric subject on Yoga. Bindu has a lot to do with focus, since many focus exercises concentrate on a dot or specific object, hence "Bindu".

It appears to me Prana Bindu have much more to do with Yoga practice (and many references in the book estates so) than with martial arts.A combination of focus, awareness and inner control, totally yogic and more of internal practice than a fighting technique.

I'm looking foward to discuss the influence of Yoga in Herbert's saga, whether he studied it previously or not, pls check my topic at the Bene Gesserit section.

Ah, but Yoga is a martial art. The Shaolin form of Kung Fu (or Gongfu) was said to be developed from Yoga poses which the Indian or Persian Buddhist priest Tamo/Bodhidharma taught to the Shaolin Order when they were just a monastery of unhealthy monks. Yoga especially has been shown off as a lethal martial art in one Kung Fu B-movie, Kung Fu vs. Yoga.

'...all those who took part in the rise and fall of the Dune project learned how to fall one and one thousand times with savage obstinacy until learning how to stand. I remember my old father who, while dying happy, said to me: "My son, in my life, I triumphed because I learned how to fail."' -Alejandro Jodorowsky

Jodorowsky's Acolyte wrote:Ah, but Yoga is a martial art. The Shaolin form of Kung Fu (or Gongfu) was said to be developed from Yoga poses which the Indian or Persian Buddhist priest Tamo/Bodhidharma taught to the Shaolin Order when they were just a monastery of unhealthy monks.

Yoga is no martial art since it follows Ahimsa (non-violence) as part of it's code.The poses were indeed taken to China by monk Boddhidarma and evolved into Kung-fu, but the practice of Yoga itself never aimed towards the other (opponent), but actually aims inward, for inner development purpose only.There're no references on any classical texts such as the Yoga Sutra of Patanjali or similar stating it as a fighting technique.Tai-chi alone may have a similar core since it combines movement with breath, but still goals might differ.