I refer to an older topic on that you mentioned in this thread.For my goal to reproduce the Franco Manca dough, I want growing a "real Italian pasta madre" with a lot of lactic acid bacteria and acetic acid bacteria as little as possible:flour 100%, water 59%, salt 3%, criscito 1,7% (converted from the recipe you've posted)

This is what I want to achieve with "legatura della pasta madre" as the Italians call wrapping the firm leaven in a kitchen towel, as you wrote earlier.

The possibility of kneading small amounts of stiff sourdough with a pasta machine is very effective! Only I do not know whether to enforce the gluten development in this way or whether the dough culture should do this on its own at the right temperature and the right time? what do you think?

After kneading with the pasta machine I have the dough (unlike the video) not scored and placed in the refrigerator, but wrapped in a cloth and laced.

Now at this point I need some help: at what temperature and for how long do you think the "legato" should rest?I did leave it at room temperature (about 68°F) overnight (about 7 hours). But the vinegary smell in the morning has clearly shown that it was either too warm, to long or both.

And further, it would also be interesting what the exact difference between the scored pasta madre (as seen on the Caputo sack and in the video of Viva la Focaccia) and the wrapped/legato pasta marde?The one way enables relaxation, while the other type is a (wrong) vacuum. What does what? When using which?

Thanks, Todi

Dear Todi, unfortunately I am not the right person to answer your questions because I have never experimented with "legatura della pasta madre" in conjunction with sourdough culture for the purpose of making Neapolitan pizza dough. In addition, I am not sure if I have correctly understood the content of your above-referenced post and your main objective by adopting the method.

Although my knowledge is very scanty in this field, allow me to make some comments. If your aim is to produce a sourdough pizza dough that carries a hint of sourness, then "legatura della pasta madre" may not be the expedient or right application. My assumption is that when your sourdough legatura is under relative pressure (which gradually builds up as the dough skin dries up and the fermentation gases get trapped inside the dough that is tightly wrapped with a towel or linen) while being deprived from atmospheric air, then this condition may promote production or over-production of those organic acids that are characteristic of lactic flavor at the expense of upsetting a favorable ratio between the wild yeasts and lactic acid bacteria. (I do not know what was the state of your sourdough culture before making your legatura.) I am just thinking out loud here. The sourdough chemistry can be a convoluted subject matter to non-specialists.

I hope someone who is knowledgeable in this sphere can shed some light on this subject. Guten tag!

In the video, Vincenzo, a tour guide, stated:"What we believe is the real pizza here in Naples is the one which does not need to be chewed, which melts in your mouth, goes straight through your throat and into your stomach."

Omid, have you experienced this phenomenon of pizza that does not need to be chewed? I realize that this is a hyperbolic statement, but I wonder if there isn't some truth to it as well. My own dough certainly must be chewed, and every other pizza I have had required substantial chewing. Which I don't mind at all. Yet I find the idea of a very light pizza appealing as well. So I'm wondering if you can identify with Vincenzo in this video, or if he is just carried away as some times happens.

On a more practical level, and perhaps to encourage you to expand a bit on this topic, if we are aiming for a very tender crust, what do you consider to be the key factors in achieving such a crust?

Omid, have you experienced this phenomenon of pizza that does not need to be chewed? I realize that this is a hyperbolic statement, but I wonder if there isn't some truth to it as well. My own dough certainly must be chewed, and every other pizza I have had required substantial chewing. Which I don't mind at all. Yet I find the idea of a very light pizza appealing as well. So I'm wondering if you can identify with Vincenzo in this video, or if he is just carried away as some times happens.

On a more practical level, and perhaps to encourage you to expand a bit on this topic, if we are aiming for a very tender crust, what do you consider to be the key factors in achieving such a crust?

Regards,

TinRoof

Dear TinRoof, after I read your post, I felt it was prudent to look up the word "chew" in an English dictionary. According to the American Heritage Dictionary (4th edition), the verb "chew" means: "to bite and grind with the teeth". I also looked up the adjective "chewy": "needing much chewing".

In my view, the phrase "does not need to be chewed" or "melts in the mouth" is an expedient exaggeration that allusively expresses a general truth or experience that may not be communicated as effectively if it were explicitly mentioned. An Italian member of this forum can correct me if I am wrong. In general, such idiomatic, figurative, or nonliteral mode of communication is quite common in southern Italy. The more north you go, the more literal-minded they appear.

In regard to your last question, I think there are a number of interlinked and indispensable factors that should be considered in order to procure a pizza base that "melts in the mouth" . Briefly put, the factors are:

1. Proper flour that is hydrated within an auspicious range (naturally, the percentages of salt and yeast are also consequential);2. Proper kneading and dough manipulation;3. Proper dough fermentation (of a long duration in accordance with how No. 1 & No. 2, above, are worked out) and dough maturation;4. Proper opening of dough balls;5. Proper WFO and temperature;6. Properly baking the pizzas in the WFO within a very short period of time.

I am sorry that my answer is too brief and general. This is an expansive topic. A substantial portion of the Neapolitan section of this forum is dedicated toward pondering on your question and the six factors listed above. Good day!

Thank you Omid. You have given me plenty to "chew on". I have recently been re-reading some of your writings on dough formulation.

I purchased a Blackstone oven and so I now have the capability to cook a pizza very quickly. I hope you will have an opportunity to bake some of your dough in one of these ovens sometime. It would be interesting to get your feedback on it. There may be some technical issues with baking a proper Neapolitan pizza in this oven, but at least there is no question that it can get hot enough to do so.

Dear Vincenzo, it was about a year ago when my friend (an electronic engineer who lives in Russia now) helped me to reduce the RPM of my Santos motor without any modifications to the mixer. Unfortunately, I do not remember the details of how he accomplished this. Basically, he used an electronic module that, if I remember correctly, would send electric pulses to the Santos motor at longer intervals (without reducing the 60Hz frequency) in order to emulate 30Hz or lower frequencies, hence reducing the RPM of the motor by half or lower. I will send him an email to provide me with details. I will inform you. . . .

Dear Vincenzo, I have not received any response yet from my friend in Russia. Earlier today, I sent him another email. I will inform you as soon as I receive his feedback. Good day!

Mal

Dear Vincenzo, it was about a year ago when my friend (an electronic engineer who lives in Russia now) helped me to reduce the RPM of my Santos motor without any modifications to the mixer. Unfortunately, I do not remember the details of how he accomplished this. Basically, he used an electronic module that, if I remember correctly, would send electric pulses to the Santos motor at longer intervals (without reducing the 60Hz frequency) in order to emulate 30Hz or lower frequencies, hence reducing the RPM of the motor by half or lower. I will send him an email to provide me with details. I will inform you. . . .

The first pizza was baked at 4:30 PM (i.e., exactly 9 hours & 13 minutes after the dough balls were formed). See the 3rd and 4th pictures below. At that point in time, the Ferrara's dome had not reached optimum temperature yet; therefore I had to resort to doming the pizza in order to achieve a short bake time. Results: soft and flavorful pizza base. My boss (Peter) and I were impressed.

The second pizza was baked at 9:35 PM. See the 5th and 6th pictures below. Although I did not time the bake, I am certain that it took less than 60 seconds. The handleability of the dough disc on the oven floor, which was a bit over 900ᴼF, was uncomplicated and trouble-free. Results: perceptibly soft and flavorful pizza base. Again, my boss and I were impressed.

The third pizza was baked at 10:21 PM. See the 7th picture below. Although I did not time the bake, I am positive that it took less than 60 seconds.

The 4th pizza was baked at 10:34 PM. See the 8th-11th pictures hereunder. This time, I timed the bake, which was 46 seconds.

In conclusion, I'd like to say that the General Mills Neapolitan flour has made an appreciable impression on both Peter and me. However, this is only an initial impression; more future tests need to be conducted for the purpose of more critically evaluating the GM dough for its gastronomical qualities and capabilities.

At last, I would like to leave you with a picture of the last, surviving dough ball, which I brought back home with me last night. As shown in the 1st picture, below, the dough ball was still good enough to morph into a pizza—17 hours & 12 minutes after the dough ball was formed. Yesterday, the dough ball was made at 7:17 AM, and the picture was shot today at 12:29 AM. So, as shown below, I actually fashioned the dough ball into a pizza. Of course, it was too late to bake it at night. Good weekend, everyone!

Thank you, friends! I wished I could have enjoyed the pizzas with you all. I hope to meet all of you soon at a future pizza summit. When I did my post, above, on the General Mills Neapolitan flour, I should have included the picture of the GM pizza I baked at Craig's Pizza Summit II. Below is the picture (and Diane's videos) to compare with the above pictures, as far as visually possible. The dough for the pizza was prepared by Craig, using sourdough culture (while I used fresh yeast), 60% hydration, and about (please correct me if I am wrong) 24+24 hours of fermentation at about 60 or 64ᴼF. Good day!

Allow me to make my contribution to Craig's original discourse. This issue, of course, can be approached from different perspectives, normative, ethical, or else, each with its own persuasive force. I enjoyed the different perspectives the members have brought to this discussion so far. Let me see if I can add to them.

§1. ArtViewed from one perspective, art is a medium of expressing the human experiences, which are of infinite range. For instance, human desires, emotions, ambitions, and et cetera. Viewed from another perspective, art is about possibilities (derived from Latin word posse, "to be able"; hence, "capable of happening"). In this narrow sense, art, in its totality, is significative, amongst other things, of life's polarities, ironies, and paradoxes of human thoughts and actions. An ideal of artistic expression, since the time of German Romanticism which swept across Europe in 18th and 19th centuries, is to experience every side of polarities, never to become rigid or static, never to become confined, the prisoner of any one mode of thought or way of life, but always to be in pursuit of the infinite. Goethe's Faust proclaimed, "Insofar as I am static, I am enslaved." It was the Romantic yearning for every experience, for infinity, that led Faust to sell his soul to the devil.

§2. Art and TraditionArt creates, it does not just copy. The great German Romantic composer Ludwig van Beethoven understood that to create new music, the old laws had to be broken or modified. So he did, courageously. For years, many considered his music unusual, improper, deviant, ignoble, or even morally distasteful. However, today, the maestro's music is considered one of the indispensable pillars of the classical repertoire. According to philosopher Walter Kaufmann:

"The great artist does not stick to any established code; yet his work is not lawless but has structure and form. Beethoven did not conform to the rules of Haydn or Mozart; yet his symphonies have form throughout. Their form and law Beethoven created with them [namely, the legacies of Hayden and Mozart]. To create involves going 'beyond. . .'."

Art creates; tradition preserves. The tension between art and tradition has alway been there, often giving birth to change. Both Haydn and Mozart also experienced this tension in their own times. Both had to break or modify some rules, set by their predecessors, in order to gain immortality. As another example, consider the High Renaissance artist Michelangelo. The man, who sculpted "David", respected and copied ancient Greek and Roman statues, yet he set out to better them within their own traditions. It takes venturesome and valorous individuals to challenge the standards of their time and to go beyond, what Friedrich Nietzsche called, "good and evil". The history of art is abound with paradigm-shifters such as Michelangelo, Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven who changed the standards of their times.

If making Neapolitan pizza is considered an art and tradition, then one needs to somehow deal with the tension between the two.

§3. Change/EvolutionIt is a given that change or flux is an all-pervading, omnipresent fact of the natural world and history of mankind. In my opinion, the history of Neapolitan pizza, as I understand it, has not been immune to the flux. As I comprehend the history of pizzas of Naples (which is reflected in my own blog), what we call "Neapolitan pizza" today—is an aftermath of a long evolutionary process. The pre-modern pizzas of Naples (i.e., prior to the advent of modernity in 1600s) have very little in common with the modern pizzas of Naples in early 1700s and onward. As discussed in my blog, each description of pizzas provided by Bartolomeo Scappi (1500s), Giambattista Basile (1600s), Vincinzo Corrado (1700s), Alexander Dumas (1800s), Francesco de Bourcard (1800s), and Raffaele Esposito (1800s) varies from one another, sometimes substantially and sometimes insubstantially. Given the past history of pizzas of Naples, there may not be any guarantee that what will be deemed as Neapolitan pizza a century from now will conform to the standards of today.

§4. The PeopleAccording to Antonio Pace, "Neapolitan pizza has no inventors, no fathers, no masters, but is the fruit of the creativity of the Neapolitan people." Yes, the people! But, “people” is a tricky concept. It definitely does not imply a single individual. It may not convey a process of establishing consensus among the people either. Perhaps, this is where a crucial role of artists becomes essential: to creatively bring to conscious awareness the spirit of a people, their aspirations, their creative potentials, their existential possibilities.

Here's my angle. Lets not confuse "tradition" with taste or quality. For many of us europeans, America which is my new beloved home is land of inovation (which is its strength) but sometimes making changes in things already well established. America being a young nation (about 300 years of history), not always easy to completely understand meaning of tradition. (my opinion is Americans value technology and inovation over tradition.) We want make TRADITIONAL pizza napoletana but we miserably fail to understand the tradition --- ending up reinventing the wheel. Almost 99% neapolitan pizzerias in USA are examples in my opinon. They claim to offer "traditional/authentic neapolitan pizza" but what you get is scandalous corruption of the tradition/authenticity. Their prides blinds them to their ignorance. I almost fell in the same trap till a member convinced me of my ignorance. After months of pizza making i was ready to open up my TRADITIONAL NEAPOLITAN PIZZERIA I even leased leased a space, bought professional mixer and the rest. I know it would have been a prosperous pizzeria but prosperity is no synonym for "tradition". The advice that really stayed with me was that once you open up your pizzeria, the business will likely have a life of its own almost independent of your efforts. So, make sure you do everything right as much as possible from the beginning. Still keep learning .. I have more questions than answers .. should neapolitan pizzerias use fridge or chilled box or room temp to ferment dough? should they ferment dough balls in individual containers or dough trays? should they open dough balls with neapolitan slap or on knuckles? can they use unusal cheeses? Must they use 00 flour? <<Ciro Salvo whose a AVPN instructor recently used a blend of 00 flour and WHOLE WHEAT.>> http://www.lucianopignataro.it/a/torre-annunziata-pizzeria-masse-qui-ce-ciro-salvo-che-fa-delle-pizze-favolose/47810/

What about weight of dough balls, 250, 260, 270 grams? da Michele whose pizzas I have had many times can get away with 300 grams or more (look at the size of the pizza in the picture) and not using olive oil and bufala. I will be damned by critics if I use whole wheat, dough ball of 300 grams or more and seed oil. Where do you draw the line? Somebody told me this is not like rules of jungle, Ciro is Ciro and da Michele is da Michele, you are none. They have earned the right, what have you done to earn the same?

I thank Craig and other members for keeping this discussion alive. By the way, any one knows the history of 00 type flour? Did Antonio Testa, Domenico Testa and Raffaele Esposito use 00 flour <<with proper W and falling number>> when they made neapolitan pizzas for the royalty of Naples? Did they have the technlology to produce 00 flours in those days? If not, when did it start?

Dear Pulcinella, you made some critical points in your post. Mark Twain once said, "Get your facts first, and then you can distort [or modify] them as much as you please." Mozart first had to learn the rules of Baroque and Rococo compositions before being able to break or modify them for the sake of engendering his Classical compositions. In turn, Beethoven had to first master the preceding rules of Classical compositions before evolving them into his Romantic compositions.

In the same vein, if I were to establish my own Neapolitan pizzeria and uphold the tradition that has made it a possibility, first it is imperative for me to understand the tradition (which is an oral tradition for the most part, hence, not readily accessible and understandable) as a fundamental frame of reference that provides a mode of commitment, and, more specifically, as a system of thought, behavior, and rituals shared by a group of people to whom it is entrusted. Next, I would take a considerable amount of time to put to practice the system of thought, behavior, and rituals in making Neapolitan pizzas—the way Neapolitans do—until I have a relative mastery over them. So, I would have to forgo using non-"00" flour, dough fermentation in a refrigerator or chilled box, and the rest of the items you enumerated above. A tradition falls apart when there is no commitment to it and its prescribed norms. And, I am not saying that one should mimic all the norms like a parrot who utters words without understanding their meanings. In my estimation, there are sound reasons underlying the norms.

Once I have mastery over the tradition, which takes years, then I can commence to become creative about it. Ciro Salvo and Da Michele do what they do because they have already gone on a long journey which you and I have just begun. The journey is an odyssey, and every odyssey has an inbuilt sense of return to a distant past. To move forward, we must look back. Good day!

"If foreigners thoroughly understand the Neapolitan pizza tradition from our vantage point and learn how to fully appreciate it, then they may not need to distort it at all according to their own sensibility or in ways that are incompatible with our tradition. Of course, they should make pizza the way they enjoy, but should not name it 'Neapolitan pizza' if it does not conform to our tradition. Neapolitan pizza is a revered part of our culture and identity as the Neapolitan people, and it displeases us to see it deformed by opportunism or ignorance, as foreigners would not like to see someone defacing symbols that are sacred to them."

What doyou think about AVPN? isn't it the job of AVPN to make us know/preserve the tradition?

"If foreigners thoroughly understand the Neapolitan pizza tradition from our vantage point and learn how to fully appreciate it, then they may not need to distort it at all according to their own sensibility or in ways that are incompatible with our tradition. Of course, they should make pizza the way they enjoy, but should not name it 'Neapolitan pizza' if it does not conform to our tradition. Neapolitan pizza is a revered part of our culture and identity as the Neapolitan people, and it displeases us to see it deformed by opportunism or ignorance, as foreigners would not like to see someone defacing symbols that are sacred to them."

What doyou think about AVPN? isn't it the job of AVPN to make us know/preserve the tradition?

Frankly, I do not have full knowledge of AVPN's means and ends, so I can not intelligently speak for them. For me, personally, it is a matter of personal integrity and sense of duty. When a pizzeria declares to the public that it offers "traditional Neapolitan pizza", that is a great burden. The "burden" is precisely the "tradition"! Can the pizzeria burden itself with the manifold responsibilities that the tradition demands of it? Or, is it going to hide behind the guise of the tradition?—for, you know, the pizzeria needs to make money. There is a dichotomy of responsibilities that more often than not come into conflict with one another. On one hand, there are the "culinary responsibilities", and, on the other, the "business responsibilities". Sometimes business concerns swallows up serious concerns for culinary matters.

Experience has taught me that AVPN certificates and rave reviews are often no concrete proofs of traditionality of a Neapolitan pizzeria. I put the emphasis on a pizzeria's "integrity" and "sense of duty".

In the United States, the risks for establishing a "traditional Neapolitan pizzeria" are so manifold (even if a pizzeria's owner and pizza-makers are from Italy) that one may doubt if this fruit can ever ripen. The scope and tower-building of the pizza business—not excluding the pressures of the business environment and the consumer demands—have grown enormously, and with this also the probability that an aspiring pizzaiolo grows weary or gets sidetracked while still learning, or allows himself to be detained somewhere along the way—so that he never attains his proper rank, the proper height. There are many factors that can lead him to delay somewhere along the way. The genuine aspirant feels the burden and the duty of hundreds of attempts and temptations; he risks himself constantly, paying no heed to the babbles and excuses while keeping his strength and enthusiasm in harness. Not easy!

I would like to welcome my Facebook friend Augusto Folliero to San Diego, California! Augusto is a young, gentlemanly, and energetic pizzaiolo who was born and raised in Naples, Italy. He recently moved from his homeland to San Diego in order to continue his career as a Neapolitan pizzaiolo at the newest Neapolitan pizzeria, known as Pommarola, here in town.

Last night, I paid him a visit at the pizzeria, where I enjoyed a "La Regina" pizza (crushed tomatoes, buffalo mozzarella, basil, and olive oil). I would characterize his style of pizza similar to that of Pizzeria di Matteo in Naples. In fact, Salvatore di Matteo and Augusto are good friends.

The Pizzeria Pommarola is equipped with a gas oven made by Marra Forni. Although it is a gas oven, Augusto fuels the oven at the same time with some wood logs, which he places to the right side of the gas outlet inside the oven. His level of skills in managing his dough and the small-size oven enables him to simultaneously bake 3 to 4 pizzas (12 inches in diameter) in 73 seconds or less per pizza. The whole time that I spent there, sitting about 8 feet away from the oven, no pizza exceeded 73-second bake. Moreover, his oven management skills did not allow the oven floor to grow cold while he perpetually kept loading and unloading 3 to 4 pizzas at a time. His time management skills in dividing his attention between assembling new pizzas on the bancone and baking pizzas already inside the oven were also impressive. At last, his dough opening skills, employing the so-called "Neapolitan slap", were worthy of attention.

It was a pleasure for me to finally meet Augusto. I wish him success! I am also thankful to Mr. Fabio Speziali, a co-owner, for his hospitality.