Ten Things I wish the Church Knew About Homosexuality

1. If Jesus did not mention a subject, it cannot be essential to his teachings.
2. You are not being persecuted when prevented from persecuting others.
3. Truth isn’t like wine that gets better with age. It’s more like manna you must recognize wherever you are and whoever you are with.
4. You cannot call it “special rights” when someone asks for the same rights you have.
5. It is no longer your personal religious view if you’re bothering someone else.
6. Marriage is a civil ceremony, which means it’s a civil right.
7. If how someone stimulates the pubic nerve has become the needle to your moral compass, you are the one who is lost.
8. To condemn homosexuality, you must use parts of the Bible you don’t yourself obey. Anyone who obeyed every part of Leviticus would rightly be put in prison.
9. If we do not do the right thing in our day, our grandchildren will look at us with same embarrassment we look at racist grandparents.
10. When Jesus forbade judging, that included you.

470 comments

It always humbles me to remember that in that beloved ancient creed, the Apostles’ Creed, which holds affirmations that most Christians seem to share (even if they are not creed-declaring people), there is this statement about Jesus, the Christ:
from thence HE shall come to judge the quick and the dead…
If all of us who claim to be Christian would remember that one pronoun, HE, and humbly acknowledge that it is not WE, this world could be considerably more peaceful.

1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

These are the words of the “He” you are referring you. He doesn’t say not to judge, He says to make sure you are pure and clean before your try to correct somebody else. He warns us against judging others when we have greater problems that we need to work on ourselves.

The creed was written by man; but those are the words of Christ, himself.

1) Right after Jesus said, “let he who is without sin cast the first stone” He said “go and sin no more”

If they had brought him a man caught in the act of homosexuality, he would have saved him from the stones.. and then said, “Go and sin no more.”

Jesus spoke often about sexual immorality in general, which anyone and everyone present would have known included homosexuality. Jesus didn’t specifically condemn a lot of things, doesn’t mean he was ok with it.

2) there are lots of things in the old testament, especially ceremonial things, that we are obligated to obey under the new covenant. However since homosexuality wasn’t merely a ceremonial issue, but a moral one AND it is specifically mentioned in the new testament, bringing up leviticus is irrelevant.

3) I suspect that one day our grandchildren will look at us in embarrassment when they consider the millions of children aborted in recent generations. they will be embarassed by gender based abortions, and they will be embarassed by 90% of downs syndrome babies being aborted, and they clinics being set up largely in black neighborhoods. 59.9% abortion rate among blacks in new york. embarrassing indeed!

Who are you to know that just because Jesus did not directly condemn something he must have been against it? That is an assumptive opinion you are making, not a fact. Sexual immorality does not necessarily include homosexuality.

There are plenty of “moral” imperatives listed in Leviticus and other books in the New Testament are either absurd or repugnant. Why do homophobes love to single out homosexuality? Regardless of your interpretation of biblical positions on homosexuality, the bottom line is that not every Christian shares your interpretation, and not everyone is Christian. Biblical teachings aren’t to be used to inform state and federal law. Marriage is not just a religious ceremony- it comes with distinct civil rights that homosexual people are denied; it is a discrimination issue.

Abortions have been going on, and have been needed, just about as long as women have been getting pregnant. I’m not going to try to persuade someone online who is anti-reproduction rights. However, you should know that gender-based abortion is pretty much not a thing in the U.S., in spite of Lila Rose’s misguided and detrimental mission.

It is not for you to tell a family whether they are equipped financially and emotionally to handle a severely disabled child.

Finally, if there are more community-based abortion clinics in poorer neighborhoods, and if Blacks have higher abortion rates, it is because of the tendency for poorer neighborhoods to have more non-white people of color, including Blacks, living in them. These neighborhoods, and women have less access to contraception as well as resources to raise children. That help and resources fail to reach these communities, and that these communities remain relatively racially segregated, is the real embarrassment.

*Jesus spoke often about sexual immorality in general, which anyone and everyone present would have known included homosexuality. Jesus didn’t specifically condemn a lot of things, doesn’t mean he was ok with it.*

Whoa, way to arrogate to yourself the right to speak for the Son of Man! I’m sure Jesus loves it when you use things you impute he would have said under hypothetical circumstances to justify your petty prejudices. What’s your name, Saul of Tarsus?

You know that part where Jesus says don’t act like the Pharisees? Clearly not.

FYI – Assuming to know what Jesus thinks, and speaking for him, is the true definition of taking the lord’s name in vain. So while you sit in judgement of those breaking debatable teachings and interpretations of ancient texts written in not fully understood languages, you yourself are breaking one of the biggest of the 10 commandments…so congrats on that one.

Of course, all this depends on you believing in the made up boogeyman to begin with. Most of the world is atheist, we all just believe in one less god than you do. The day can’t come soon enough when the god of christians, jews, and muslims go the way of the greeks and romans. The time will come when your kind will be looked back at as just as silly as people who believed in bird signs from Zeus, and the earth will be better off for it. no more crusades, no more spanish inquisitions, no more witch hunts.

kbh, who are you to assume what Jesus WOULD have said about homosexuality! Are there other issues where YOU know what Jesus WOULD have said enough to quote him directly in all things hypothetical?

What did Jesus hypothetically say about mortgage derivatives as an investment instrument? What did Jesus say about Stock Options as a tool for excessive Executive Compensation? What did Jesus say about en vitro fertilization? What did he say about surrogate motherhood? What did he say about BPH in the food supply? What did Christ have to say about the Paul Ryan Budget?

I know this is a long list of questions. But you seem to have Jesus on the mainline. You seem very comfortable assuming what Christs wants and quoting him directly on that.

Do you see yourself as a Disciple of a Pharisee? Are you interested in the Lessons or the Bible or the Letter of the LAW? Because Christ seemed to preach against letting Religious Law get in the way of common sense and especially compassion. Believing homosexuality is a sin flies in the face of what common sense (and the Holy Spirit) tells me.

I am fascinated to see that the Pelagian heresy is making a return, and there are those who think themselves so pure and clean that they may give judgment in the Seat of Christ. As it stands written: “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.”

Josh, you say ” He doesn’t say not to judge, He says to make sure you are pure and clean before your try to correct somebody else.” How can you say that when the very first words that YOU quote are: “Do not judge, or you too will be judged.”

@Josh, The whole Bible was written by man. Are you saying to only follow the parts that Jesus instructs us about? If so, why isn’t there just the Book of Jesus when all of the other teachings in the bible from different books are instructed to people?

Tess very well pointed out the fact that your opening line contradicts your opinion.

Are you sure you want to write off people that easily? You’re also laughing at people like Martin Luther King here. Do you see his use of the Bible as “silly?” I think you have an important point to make, but the ridicule will make it harder for people to listen. There is a book called The Bible Tells Me So which illustrates how Christians have used the Bible on opposite sides of important issues. I agree you have an important point but you will need to decide if you are going to be a teacher to humankind, or a mere heckler. You are obviously intelligent, I hope you will choose to be a teacher.

Jim, I love your Ten Things list and I love your response to Catdog just as much. This is what we need most in this world, someone to speak with common sense and intelligence to BOTH sides. I, myself, am a supporter of equality and a christian who does not attend church because I live in the south and I’m sick of being told that the people I love are immoral and going to hell. Many in the GLBT community have been hurt so bad that their first instinct is to strike out, to be defensive, but they need to stop and think about how this is hurting their cause and they need to inform instead….thank you so much for all you do!!

Thank you Terri. I’m honored that you would come to the site. I’m sorry, but understand why you must live without a church right now. I hope you are able to find people who will share your passion for social justice, but also can be a community for you. It’s sad when Christlike love keeps someone from being able to fit in the church, but I understand and respect what you are saying.

When performing services under government contracts, you’ve been managing all along to pay benefits to spouses of employees or treat married aid recipients as couples without worrying about whether any of them was previously divorced. Therefore, when same-sex married couples enter the picture, you have no business acting like this is new territory: you’ve already crossed the bridge of complying with government requirements contrary to your dogma.

To conclude that the Sodom and Gomorrah story is about homosexuality, you’d have to believe that (a) it was OK for Lot to offer the locals his daughters in place of the angels, because at least that wouldn’t have been homosexual, and (b) that if the angels had taken the form of women, it would have been OK for the locals to come to rape them.

Romans 1:26-27 is not about homosexuals being wicked. It’s about heterosexuals who God compelled, as punishment for their wickedness, to engage in homosexual behavior.

Actually, The Prophet Ezekiel said that Sodom’s sin was that they were “…proud, gluttonous, and lazy. They ignored the oppressed and the poor.”

“Your [Jerusalem’s] older sister is Samaria. She lived to the north of you with her daughters. Your younger sister is Sodom, who lived to the south of you with her daughters. Haven’t you lived just like they did? Haven’t you engaged in outrageous obscenities just like they did? In fact, it didn’t take you long to catch up and pass them! As sure as I am the living God!—Decree of God, the Master—your sister Sodom and her daughters never even came close to what you and your daughters have done.
‘The sin of your sister Sodom was this: She lived with her daughters in the lap of luxury—proud, gluttonous, and lazy. They ignored the oppressed and the poor. They put on airs and lived obscene lives. And you know what happened: I did away with them.” – Ezekiel 16:46-50

I agree with the Scriptures that was the main reason for the destruction of those cities. Obviously Paul spoke about people in the church that were formerly Homosexuals and that their lives were changed by Christ.

Seriously? You’re reading an ex-gay ministry into a culture without a concept of sexual orientation? Please.

And notice Paul is talking to ALL the Jewish Christians about ALL the gentile Christians. Not 5-10% of each. Whatever Paul was addressing it was cultural, something all Gentiles were doing that all Jews found offensive. Then his point was that the Jewish Christians should get over it already and that the gentile Christians didn’t have to follow Jewish law.

(The thing is a letter. Are people really only reading it one – articifical – chapter at a time?)

Reading the Epistles is like hearing one side of a phone conversation. You can only guess at what is going on at the other end. The people who are using these scriptures to defend their position on homosexuality seem to have forgotten this.

Excellent point Aimee. To take the words out of context from a letter written in another language, in a vastly different culture, in a vastly different time, which were intended to to confront a specific problem that you don’t fully understand, and think you understand it literally, is ignorance and arrogance made one.

Well written. #10 eludes the religious. Marriage as a civil ceremony recognized by the state should be a right for all couples. If the churches don’t want to do ceremonies. Who cares? I had a fantasy wedding at The Texas Renaissance Festival. It was great! Everything we hoped for. The Catholic Church does not recognize our marriage because we didn’t have a “priest” in a “Church Building”. Again….Who cares? I don’t need them to recognize my now 14 year marriage. As long as the State of Texas recognizes our marriage. We’re good. Stop robbing people of equal rights.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Do you not know that the unrighteous and the wrongdoers will not inherit or have any share in the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived (misled): neither the impure and immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor those who participate in homosexuality, 10Nor cheats (swindlers and thieves), nor greedy graspers, nor drunkards, nor foulmouthed revilers and slanderers, nor extortioners and robbers will inherit or have any share in the kingdom of God.
Sexual immorality is sin in any form or fashion that it comes in. By your comments are you condoning homosexuality? If marriage were to be between same sex partners why did God make Adam a companion in the form of a woman?
And to same that Jesus did not include it in His teachings? In Matthew 5:32, Matthew 15:19, Matthew 19:9, and Mark 7:21 He specifically mentions sexual immorality of any kind (ref again 1 Corinthians 6:9-10).
Everyone’s “moral compass” should be the Word of God. Including how we treat others who’s actions we don’t agree with. I simply don’t see how anyone can argue with the Word on this subject.

The word sometimes translated “homosexual” in Corinthians 6:9-10 is obscure. Some Greek dictionaries don’t even try to define it. Other words translated as “homosexual” in some English translations could be translated as “soft” or “sickly”. To use the Corinthians verse, or the other verses you use from Matthew, is to use a circular argument. If you are trying to prove that homosexuality is sexual immorality, you can’t use verses condemning sexual immorality and just assume that homosexuality is included in the condemnation. As a Presbyerian I was trained in the biblical languages, so a bad English translation carries no weight with me. You might want to do some word studies before you condemn your brothers and sisters.

A true scholar of the Greek would never rely on Word Studies…they are worse than some English translations…look to the Greek inscriptions on the temples of the pagan gods and see if you don’t see that “obscure” word written on some of them…

Uh, no, you don’t. In all extant literature (including fragmens and inscriptions) the word is uniqe to Paul (and the Greek Fathers who discussed him). Nice try, though.

Its radical translation would be “male bedders” (and, by the way, ‘male’ instead of ‘man’ was often used to indicate boys), but Paul’s intention in (evidently) coining the word is disputed and unknown. My own opinion is that in such lists Paul is warning his converts away from supporting cruelly-exploitative persons (he makes this explicit in I Cor v.11) — this becomes clearer when the rest of his words are translated more literally, so that they indicate pimps, those ambitious for money, those who indulge themselves with soft living, and so on — at any rate, claiming Paul was suddenly against a _way of feeling_ doesn’t make sense from any translation.

Nissa, No they aren’t correct. I realize you mean well, but you are completely ignorant of the Biblical languages. That word “pornois” which doesn’t mean “homosexual” but “sex that is evil.” To you that may mean “homosexual” but you are projecting your own prejudice on a vague word.

Apart from the fact that there is supposed to be a separation of church and state AND even ignoring the fact that us rational people shouldn’t be required to live by the words of your imaginary friends, if you think everyone has to live by leviticus, you can’t eat shellfish, touch pigs, touch menstruating women, wear mixed fibres and a whole host of other nonsense rules from the same section of your story book, else you’re a massive hypocrite. Still, the bottom line is that I refuse to live my life by the made up words of a giant, invisible magician on a cloud.

I perceive you can see beyond/thru the veils of illusion. Carry on, my good man,,,, if you would like to hear from me, read my response to Sarah,^ above. Love to you and thank you for sharing your truth.

As a Republican, Christian, heterosexual, married woman, all I have to say to you, Chad, is that you’re remarkably ignorant. Get off your pedestal and realize that the whole world does NOT have to believe what you believe, and your way is NOT the only way to live, no matter what’s been pounded into your head.

Wow, Stacy, way to discuss/debate Chad. You claim yourself a Christian woman yet don’t refute Chad on his understanding of scripture. Instead, what you do is attack his intelligence when he does, in fact, know exactly what he’s saying. Way to be you Christian soldier.

Because you are all of those things means nothing to anyone but you. Those are YOUR preferences/ beliefs. Do NOT force them on others, or as Christians are finding out, we will fight back. We will NOT let you hurt/offend others in the name of your God. We on the other side are not saying what you practice is wrong, unless it includes practicing hate. That is what the Christians are shouting right now, hate and ignorance. Get off your pedestal, mind your own business and leave the rest of us alone. We’ll happily return the favor and leave you alone.

Hey Martin… maybe you should read Chad’s post again and then read Stacy’s comment. I think you are attacking someone that is actually on your side. She was stating those things about herself to prove a point. That just because she identifies as things that are generally considered “conservative” or “anti-gay” doesn’t mean that she has that opinion. Chad was remarking that homosexuality is a immoral sin due to it being an immoral sexual act. Stacy was telling Chad his interpretation of the Bible was in fact, ignorant.

I don’t think that last bit is true. She (Stacy) was not saying his (Chad’s) interpretation was ignorant, but rather that the idea that he can force others to agree with his beliefs is ignorant.

Both sides quote the bible very often, but the verse I see infrequently is the one regarding the mote and the beam in the sermon on the mount (Matthew 7:1-5). The judgement you use on others is the judgement that will be used on yourself. If one chose to judge others based on their violation of the Word set forth in Leviticus, should they not also be judged for wearing that cotton-poly blend shirt they bought from wal-mart? If judging based on the words of Jesus, then why aren’t they simply loving their neighbor as they love themself. Does Romans 3 not say that ALL have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God? If so, then it is unwise to cast stones when one lives in a glass house. What any of us believes affects our lives and ours alone, and like Stacy, I refuse to demand that everyone live their lives by my personal values.

As for marriage, marriage is a civil liberty. The term “civil” is defined, according to Merriam-Webster, as “of or relating to citizens.” A “right” is defined, also according to Merriam-Webster, as “something to which one has a just claim.” Therefore, a civil right would be something to which citizens have a just claim. Note that the definition of “civil” does not specify any citizens in particular. It doesn’t say “white citizens”, “male citizens”, or “heterosexual citizens”. The lack of an adjective usually implies that the term “citizens” refers to ALL citizens.

What constitutes a citizen of the United States of America? According to the Fourteenth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, “All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.”

The Fourteenth Amendment goes on to state that “No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.” If marriage is a civil liberty, and the government cannot “deprive any person of life, LIBERTY, or property without due process of law,” then it follows logically that marriage cannot be withheld from any US citizen without a valid reason proven in a court of law.

Sexual orientation has been determined in virtually every manner possible to be a natural occurrence akin to race, gender, and age. Even if it were a choice, that would make it akin to religion, because it has long been proven that one chooses their religion per the concept of “free will.” Being that natural occurrences are out of our control, a government should not discriminate based upon natural occurrences. Being that choices that people make (such as religion) are protected as long as they harm no one else or themselves, a government has no right to discriminate based on otherwise legal, personal choices.

I mean, yeah, but that’s not a very nice way to say it. I would have said

“As someone who has studied the Bible my whole life by people who were trained to understand it, I’m sorry to say that you’re taking a lot of stuff out of context, and you can’t honestly understand it unless you read it for all it’s worth, and God opens your eyes to it. We don’t hate you, we don’t condemn you. Our beliefs differ from yours. It’s not our place to tell you what to do or not to do. But don’t condemn us for our beliefs when we don’t condemn you for your actions.”

If the whole world doesn’t have to believe what he believes, why do we have to believe what you believe? (You implying Christians or any other group that is against a homosexual lifestyle. I don’t know how you feel, but I would assume you fall into the aforementioned category.)

Not a “lifestyle”. I wish people would quit calling it that. I don’t live my life by the “ways of the gays”. I live my life like a Canadian. I work. I go home and watch Game of Thrones in my fruit of the loom underwear, eating a cheese burger. It also so happens that I don’t get a physical, biological “jolly” out of women.

So when you’re defending us, please refrain from calling it a “lifestyle”.

Very well put Stacy. However, reading your post makes me wonder whos really on the pedestal here. “The whole world does NOT have to believe what you believe, and your way is NOT the only way to live, no matter what’s been pounded into your head”

The Word of God should be my moral compass? As defined by what? The Bible, The Quran, or maybe some Hindu text? I live in a country where there is freedom of religion and I have the right to find my own path to God. This path is my own, and should not reflect the laws of my land, laws that must be followed by ALL. My moral compass may not be your moral compass, so isn’t best we agree to separate our personal truths from those of our government?

I have zero problem with homosexuality and disagree with pretty much everything Chad said, but in relation to this web posting, I think he has a right to respond saying people should follow the Word. I mean, I think hs interpretation of it is totally off and I don’t think everyone should be expected to follow one religion (or any religion), but since his response was about what CHURCHES (and presumably their followers) should understand, I think using religion as an argument is fair game here.

I checked out your blog and I totally disagree with your blog – but it is your right to post it. It is your blog and you can post what you want. I do however think it humorous that you judge the writer of this blog, by bashing him personally – then go on to discuss how you are a servant of god and Jesus.

You mention how he sounds all “educated” and claim he knows nothing……which is exactly how I took your blog.

I also went to your blog, and I think you need to do some work on your critical thinking and reading comprehension skills. And possible argumentation skills. If you have to rely on divine intervention to make your argument work, then your argument doesn’t work.

Thank you for posting the word of God……just remember you do not have to believe it, nor follow it, but that does not mean it is not true….living right and for God is a choice, but at the end of life and when you meet your maker you will have to answer for your choice…if we who believe homosexuality is a sin, and we are wrong, we really do not have anything to lose, at the end of our lives, we just lived a cleaner lifestyle…but if we are right and you wrong! You will loose eternal living with GOD.

“If we who believe homosexuality is a sin, and we are wrong, we really do not have anything to lose”…

This is concerning to me, as I feel like this type of thinking has led to horrible instances in the past. Almost all forms of oppression (what the Nazi’s did to the Jews, etc) has been focused around the mentality of “I’m right and your wrong. I’m better than you and because of this I have a right to belittle you”. This type of thinking takes root in the concept that because you have power (being from a dominant culture) you can do what you please because you have nothing to lose. In this process, Delia, you forget what you took from others. We are to give love and build people up. To shelter them from judgment and hate of others, as Jesus did with the women at the well. When you become someone who is placing judgment, you make no room to love them, and that contradicts the message of Jesus. Your actions and inaction impact others. Who are you in the story? If Jesus though, well she’s sinner and she’s wrong and it doesn’t matter whether I help her or not or stand up for her or not, we would have a very different story of Jesus wouldn’t we?

Jesus Said
Love thy God with all your heart all your mind and all your soul.
‘Love thy neighbor as thyself.
Upon these two commandments hang all the scripture, there are no commandments greater than these.

How about Let he who is without sin let him cast the first stone?
Judge not lest you shall be judged?

Seems to me you are abusing all these things when you condemn anyone. It is not your place nor your right to judge or hate anyone or their lifestyle.
Period.

Then if you take on the role of God and judge others what place will you find in the kingdom???

Having been raised in a Christian household and going to Christian schools my whole life, I can say that you are wrong. In the end when you meet your “maker” and you answer for your so called “sins” all you do is ask for forgiveness and no matter how wicked you may be, God will always forgive you. So even if Homosexuality is “immoral and wrong” there is still a chance to “repent” in front of God.

I don’t believe that god would hate me because I love a man nor do I believe that I would ever have to ask for forgiveness for being who I was made to be.

In a nutshell, yeah. But that only applies to Christians who were not living in constant sin. God defines homosexuality as a constant sin, and if a person refuses to give up that sin, they aren’t saved. so it’s a bit of a mute point.

Constant sin as opposed to sometimes sin? Where’s that from? All have sinned and have fallen short of the grace of God. And I think if there are words or passages that are ambiguous in meaning (like that one from 1st Corinthians), lets err on the side of compassion.

Where does it call it a “constant sin”? Be careful which “version” of the actual bible you are quoting. Each has their own subtle interpretation of the original word. Having read a few of them I don’t believe it is universally accepted by biblical scholars that god called homosexuality a constant state of sin.

@ Delia — “Nothing to lose?” I dunno, I would much rather meet my judgement and be told that I showed too much love to others, rather than being condemned for not loving others that I did not deem worthy.

There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love. We love because he first loved us. If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.

I totally agree with you Joanne. I kept looking at the responses and wondering when I would come up with the one response that mattered the most. Thank you for posting it. Personally I believe the bible is Gods word is and if he said it then it is true. Anything else that is derived from it and put into another text book is just not the same. We can argue it all we want but if homosexuality is wrong they will deal with it then. I think our body wasade for the oposite sex. I personally believe homosexuality is wrong. God has been removed from our schools, our government and now this. I think a family is meant to be a man and a woman with children. It is not natural for two men and two women to be together as a couple. I don’t know why there is a love between them but I do not believe they were born that way. I believe it is a sin just like anythinhg else that we have a desire for and know it is not acceptable to God and we must give it up and change thru God’s grace I know we can. But if we do not want to change we can argue it all of our lives. The bottom line is this: If we believe it is wrong we have nothing to prove for we will be with Christ one day as Christians. If it is wrong then they will deal with it then. The rich man was wrong and he asked for Lazarus to return to tell his brothers about hell but because no one appears to care anyway he was told no. The same way today no one is llistening. They do not want to know the truth. All they care about now is what is in it for them and scared to actually know the truth for in fear it will take away their lifestyle. As christians it is time we fight back and protect God. Many people have given up in saying anything to protect God in fear of what people will say or think of them. Step up people and speak your mind for God. Homosexuality is WRONG!

I was raised Christian, and was taught of His might and compassion. I don’t know for whom you “fight back and protect” but it’s not the Almighty. You are welcome to your opinion and beliefs, but the hateful wretch you worship isn’t the Christian God and you should stop calling yourself Christian.

Hey Wanda… We are ALL God. Even you. Even me. Even a tree, or an insect, or the smallest of bacteria. God knows all because God sees through the point of views of everyone. What is right and what is wrong is all a matter of perspective. God doesn’t need anyone to fight or protect “him”.

You may think you know what is wrong, but wouldn’t it be funny if it turned out that no one had it all right and we all go to the same place anyway? Who knows, maybe you’ll reincarnate as a homosexual just so your soul can understand what it’s like to live from that perspective.

But even if you’re right, it’s none of your business what anyone else does in their own personal lives. That’s between them and the infinite collective consciousness of the Universe that you would call “God.”

Delia, it is people like you that totally astound me. Why is it that you feel that YOU straight ones are the only ones that will get to enjoy Heaven? You said, oh, if we are wrong, God will just tell us that we are wrong and we will get to march right on in to Heaven. You do not KNOW this. At best, you can only HOPE this is true. However, how are you going to react on that day IF he refuses you a pass into Heaven? It CAN HAPPEN. My dear dear uniformed and misguided one, you do NOT have an all exclusive contract with God. You may think it but EVERYBODY has a chance at Heaven. YOU would know this if you read the Bible instead of listening to preachers and other people that are leading you down the path of destruction.

Christ came to save us from our sins. Christians are people who accept that gift. But that doesn’t mean they are free from sin. Just because you live “clean” doesn’t mean you’re going to Heaven. And believers are justified whether they “clean up their act” or not. It’s faith not works that lead you to eternity with Jesus. I’m not homosexual and I don’t understand it. I pray for my own understanding and for people to be in right relationship with Christ. I hope that is not offensive.

I totally agree with you Chad and I believe it is sad that homosexuals who profess to know the Word of God really don’t know the Truth. Anyone can interpret anything to fit their personal lifestyle. Furthermore, it’s not about condemning the person; it’s about condemning the sin. ANY SEXUAL ACTIVITY OUTSIDE THE COVENANT OF MARRIAGE, WHICH GOD DESIGNED, IS A SIN. PERIOD.

But Debbie, it’s a circular argument. First you don’t let them get Married and then use the fact that they aren’t married as proof they are sinners. Where in the Bible does it say you have to get a license or go through a ceremony to get married? Answer: It doesnt.

I’m really curious as to where someone found anywhere in the Bible where marriage is explicitly recognized as an institution, as opposed to where it is referenced as something that happens between people. And what kind of “marriage?” polygamy? Serial marriages that include concubines? Homosexual relationships between “shield brothers?” marriages between adults and 12 year olds?

You can pretty much say make the Bible say what you want if you proof text hard enough, but when you refuse to allow cultural changes and basic humanity, not to mention logic, enter the picture, you destroy its spirit and make it just more dead words. So why stop at using it to justify hating or marginalizing people for their sex lives when we can all go back to the good old days when we just KNEW that slavery was biblically justified?

Uh, yeah Debbie. Anyone can interpret anything to fit their personal lifestyle – including one that 1) Violates a civil liberty; 2) creates a second class of citizenry (a “less-than”); 3) decides that their religion has to dictate the rights of others. Irony abounds.

Please by all means worship as you will. But please do not assume that there is one religion or even one philosophy that is mandatory to be imposed here – as in sharia law…

Debbie I completely agree. Anyone can interpret anything to fit their personal lifestyle. Like heterosexuals uncomfortable with homosexuality who pick random bits of scripture from the Bible completely out of context and cobble them together into the weakest doctrine in order to say it’s a sin in the eyes of God.

Isn’t it awful when people twist the word of God to suit their own purposes? For example when the Anglican Church strongly opposed the abolition of slavery in my country (United Kingdom) on the basis that nowhere in the Bible was it directly condemned. Trying to present God’s position on something from something that isn’t even in the Bible.

Ignoring the many other stupid points made in this post, I’m going to focus on one that requires 0 biblical scholarship to grasp. Ready?

What GOD says about a LEGAL ceremony in the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA should have NO BEARING. I don’t understand how people don’t understand this. In my opinion, America was not even founded on “Christian” values. Some values are just good values. But whatever you think you can’t argue that one of the biggest problems with the European world at the time that the US constitution was trying to remedy was religious leaders also being the government leaders and the problems that caused people outside of that religious group. They didn’t want Christianity or any other religion to be cited as a source for laws. Please realize that “religious freedom” means freedom of all religion including the freedom to not have a religion and no legal right should ever be denied to a citizen based on a belief from a religious document.

Why do you insist on conflating your own religious beliefs with public policy? Your religious beliefs do not give you the right to trample the rights of others. And no, you’re not being oppressed if you don’t get to oppress someone else.

Thank you, Jim–I’m done arguing about this, and the culture is moving on without the Church–and leaving the Church because we don’t live out the commandment to love and live with compassion for each other. So I especially like # 9–if we try to use the Bible as authority for treating our brothers and sisters with such disrespect, we ignore what Augustine tells us in On Christian Doctrine–any biblical reading that doesn’t privilege love is no reading at all.

A couple of generations ago, the same types of Americans who are anti-gay today were anti-black, and I’m sure they quoted all kinds of KJV verses to justify it back then too, both in church on Sunday and at the Klan rally the night before. Allowing gays to marry is no different from miscegenation.

The entire purpose of having a society and civilization is progress … otherwise we’d still be living in caves and hunting mammoths. Religious doctrine is fixed, which means by definition it is against progress, and thus uncivilized.

Thanks for writing Dave. I agree with your central point. I disagree that religious doctrine is fixed. “Reformed and always reforming” is a tenet of many branches of the church. I agree the progress is way too slow in most cases.

As a person who believes that scripture does not condone homosexuality and calls any sex outside of the oneness found in a marriage that God has designed – man and woman – I take offense to your comparing me to the “antiblack” supporters of the 1960s. Please do not generalize people with my viewpoint. You are just doing the same thing that you are condemning by dumping us all in one basket. To call me a racist because I do believe that homosexuality is a sin is poor logic and is unfair to the argument.

Liz, Judgment doesn’t feel good to any of us. Are you saying you want to be able to judge others without having anyone do that to you? Wouldn’t it be better to treat others the way you want to be treated? Jim

Sorry to inform you, sister, but there is not a SPECK of choice in the matter of homosexuality. There is if you’re a bisexual(for obvious reasons). But even if I were a bisexual man with a choice, who made you God to take away my civil right marry my boyfriend of many, committed years? I do believe Unions/”marriages” existed long before the concept of Judaism was even thought of.

And you are pegged in the same basket as racists. Deal with it. I don’t like being pegged in the same basket as pedophiles, child molesters, and animal-philes(don’t know the actual word), because I am none of those. But bigots still adamantly believe that gays all get together at each others houses and have big orgies with children and dogs…
Psychologists have shown that bigotry and racism stem from the same area in the brain and same thought process. 😉 And they’ve also shown that sexual “deviancies” stem from completely different areas/traumas/etc… Soo… who’s closer to making a more accurate generalization?

and jesus demonstrated the true love delivers from sins and doesn’t leave us there. He died because sin is terrible and the price is terrible. He wouldn’t have needed to die to just tell people, “do what you want to do.”

Bonhoffer, “Nothing can be more cruel than the tenderness that consigns another to his sin. Nothing can be more compassionate than the severe rebuke that calls a brother back from the path of sin.”

Thanks Chris. I actually did mean “pubic” as in the nerve that is stimulated in the act of sex. As long as we focus on that, and ignore the actual relationships in question, I think our ethics will only get stranger.

It is very important for homosexuals to gain social acceptance. I believe this is because they feel so horrible about their actions and their imbalance in nature.

According to religion, man is not complete, blessed or “human” without his counterpart woman. Many blogs discount religion and God altogether as they don’t fit into their actions.

If you go by Chinese philosophy, and read of Yin Yang, this concept is used to describe how seemingly opposing forces are bound together, intertwined, and interdependent in the natural world.

If you look to nature, the human body design and organ design reveals its purpose. Homosexuals would not be on the planet if not for heterosexual actions. Homosexuals owe their own lives to “breeders”.

The signs are quite clear and all point to the same thing, homosexuality is an unnatural behavior. Homosexuals reject function for feeling.

Up until now, society has cherished and rewarded marriage for what springs forth, children. Marriage forms bonds in society and acts as cornerstone of a growing, town, city, village, county, and nation. Marriage also is a center point for family and over time society has chosen to reward this unit monetarily. Religion helps develop moral compass to help guide people as to how to act toward one another.

Homosexuals will continue to claim that they are oppressed and even try to compare their issue to slavery; which is ridiculous and insulting.

Some will claim that homosexuality IS natural because a select number of animal perform homosexual activity. Please keep in mind that animals are just that, animals. They are similar to homosexuals in that they are driven by their impulses, but animals do NOT have a moral compass, they do not have the ability to reason, they do not have a conscience and they are not creative. (Also, just because something happens in nature, does not make it natural or helpful for society. Murder and pedophilia happen in nature, but it doesn’t make it a natural act.) Side note: Murder and Pedophilia are driven by impulses.

Some will point to divorce rate, extra martial affairs, spousal abuse, and child abuse as to reasons why homosexuality is viable. This is a smokescreen. These actions are NOT a result of heterosexuality, but more often related to lack of knowledge, lack of good parenting, lack of understanding, respect, pride, community, and/or honor.

If there is no God as many homosexuals claim, then think of your affliction is a gene misfire. Like a two headed snake or a cat with two faces. Your desires may be real, but you know deep down that they are unnatural.

There is of course no cure for your affliction and that is sad; and if that is the case…. then blame it all to the Big Bang and the fact that we all came from mud.

Buck, I’ve never met anyone who argued from “natural law” who actually understood biology. You can’t say that a certain behavior is “unnatural” on the one hand, but that we shouldn’t act like the animals on the other hand. To assume that you know all homosexuals are irreligious is a huge mistake. I’m sure you are a decent person, but you need to learn to test your ideas, especially when they affect others.

As a homosexual, let me go through your post and try to explain my thoughts and ideas on your comments. WARNING: I am expressing personal opinions and they will differ from yours.

Paragraph 1: I don’t think gay people argue for social acceptance, they argue for civil rights. Personally, I don’t give a s*** if you accept me or not. My family and environment is already doing a pretty good job at accepting and loving me.

Paragraph 2: Coming from a country where religion is simply not a part of daily life, this does not mean anything. Why does anyone have to account for religion? And which religion should we go by in the first place?

Paragraph 3: My partner is a Republican and I would probably be considered a liberal. Totally opposing forces, but man, have we been a good fit for the past 5 years. Yin and Yang. Bam!

Paragraph 4: I never quite understood the breeder argument. We have hit the 7 billion people mark on Planet Earth. Maybe homosexuality is a response by Mother Nature (or God) to bring some balance to this overpopulated planet? This is not something we can test, but hey, here is a personal opinion: I think it’s time that we stop cranking out kids.

Paragraph 5: “Homosexuals reject function for feeling.” Can you please elaborate? I don’t get it.

Paragraph 6: See my answer to paragraph 4. Do you know how many homosexuals have contributed to society in other ways than making children? If you truly follow this argument, you should reject everything that homosexuals have done for your village, town, city, county and nation. You probably wouldn’t want to do that because gays have contributed to a lot of things you probably like. My recommendation: Do some research!

Paragraph 7: Personal example: My partner is American and I am German. A heterosexual person can sponsor their partner to come to the USA for immigration purposes. My partner cannot. As an American citizen, my partner is being oppressed because he does not have the same right as you: Being with the person they love. I find that even more insulting! And wouldn’t this actually be unconstitutional?

Paragraph 8: So you are saying the word “natural” equals the word “right?” This is a philosophical argument and difficult to discuss. It is the same as you do not know that animals are not able to have a conscience or be creative. My dog can be pretty creative some times, and man, does he have a bad conscience when he knows that he did something he shouldn’t have done. You just cannot prove any of this, so it can’t really be an argument.

Paragraph 9: I agree with you on this 100%. I am not blaming any of this on heterosexuality (which would be silly). It is part of being human, we all lack knowledge some time, no parent is perfect, we don’t always understand things, people are disrespectful at times and too proud as well, etc. etc. Humans f*** up sometimes. It doesn’t have anything to do with sexual orientation.

Paragraph 10: Huh? Again, philosophical argument. You are making assumptions on homosexuals as a homogeneous group. I am sure that homosexuals trying to be converted to heterosexuals would agree with you here, but alas, I don’t.

Paragraph 11: I am not blaming anyone or anything. I am unhappy that I don’t have a right that you have, but I understand that this is the current circumstance. I appreciate your effort in trying to explain your thoughts. At the same time, I don’t understand what drives you to be so intolerant of something that clearly does not affect you. Is it going to make your life any different if I get to do exactly what you get to do? I would hope not!

Germarican, Thank you for writing. I hope Buck can see how hard you are trying to communicate with him. I’m sorry your partner and you have to face intolerance. I hope others can sense you intelligence and integrity.

Loving your response to paragraph 4. In particular, ” Maybe homosexuality is a response by Mother Nature (or God) to bring some balance to this overpopulated planet?” Seems like a perfectly logical conclusion to me. If it is not God’s doing, than what other explanation is there? Seems to me the only other possibility would be Darwinism…apparently homosexuals are fit enough to survive the human evolution…but since many many of those against homosexuality do not accept the findings of Darwin’s studies, the only explanation left for them to consider should that God put homosexuals on earth for a reason.

We can kinda test it. Study with mice and a fixed food supply found that once there were too many mice for the food, the new generations of mice got gayer. I find it weird, but it shows someone thought to test it as close as possible, anyways.

Oooo, either the loathed Darwin is right or they have to admit that God made the homosexual for a reason! I love it. It really does only come down to those two ideas. Either we evolved and flourished, or divine creation made us, in His image, but a bit skewed for some purpose, because according to Christians, God does not make mistakes.

1. Who says that yin and yang refers only to genitalia? Why can’t it refer to two partners’ personalities and differences, regardless of gender, coming together?
2. By the “nature” argument, do you believe that marriages in which pregnancy cannot happen due to infertility, age, etc. is completely without function?
3. If homosexuality is a “gene misfire” and creates a false life, what about other genetic issues? Birth defects, mental health problems, etc… are those people “unnatural” as well?

1. My partner and I are complete polar opposites. She’s neurotic and always worried about physical issues, and I do that on emotional levels while being laid back about say: the bills. She has dark skin and hair, I am fair as the dawn. She has a scientific brain, mine is mathmatic and literary. She is tall and thin, I’m short and curvy. She was born in fall, I in spring. Pretty sure that’s good and opposite! 🙂

2. You could have simply confounded him by the idea that God does not make mistakes and that to be born in His image with a slight difference must have occurred for some reason 😉

I have a problem personally with people saying that a marriage isn’t one unless it produces children. I am a young woman and have been married to a wonderful man for five years, but I have a genetic defect that keeps me from getting pregnant, barring a miricle, so given that argument, my husband and I aren’t married. Do I think homosexuality is wrong…it’s not my place to decide, just keep the PDA to a minimum, which I think heterosexual couples need to do too, and don’t tell me what to do in my sex life either.

And thus, the Biblically sanctioned “16 & Pregnant” is born. Exploited by TV and repeated in droves. But that’s alright, they’re doing it the way God intended! Surely the homos are more immoral by just using sex for recreation…

Why is there no “like” function. I don’t believe that in taoist belief there is a basic point for which sort of “opposite” one need be. It could be as simple as eye color or the old glass is half full/empty perspective.

Murder and paedophilia are driven impulses. Yes Buck they are. So’s a high school girl and boy going at it like jackhammers in a pickup after prom. But hey, a gunshot wedding and an unplanned bundle of joy 9 months later and everyone can tell each other it’s the will of God can’t they.

I’m am identical twin. The medical profession still can’t explain why fertilised eggs split during gestation, so medically speaking I’m classed as a freak. Are you going to tell me that’s a gene misfire and I should think of myself being like a two headed snake or a two faced cat? That my twin brother who has exactly the same DNA as me may be real but deep down I know it’s unnatural.

we humans always try to pigeon hole other peoples wrongs as being wronger than our own. i am not a bible scholar, but am somewhat familiar with the gist of what is being conveyed in its writings. i know that there is a verse that quotes Jesus, indicating that each person will be judged by the standard they themselves use to judge others. elsewhwhere, paul states that if we judged ourselves, we would not be judged. putting this together, i get a mental picture of someone using a measuring device to determine their own height, and the height of those around them. you should only use your own mesuring device on yourself. don’t make yourself out to be taller than those around you. mind your own business. forgive people who judge you and don’t mind their own business. be more concerned with being the person that makes things better for others.

Chad I’m with you 150%! Speaking as someone who was a lesbian for 12 years homosexuality is an immoral sin and the bible does teach about this. I’m in now way against equal rights for everyone one and I understand this from both sides but what must be understood is the Jesus can change all people. We were not born homosexual and it is unnatural but God is the only one who can change it or who can judge. Don’t change the Bible to fit your choices, use it to learn how to live according to his purpose.

Danielle, it is a major mistake to argue from your own personal experience to thinking you know how everyone else should live. It is enough that you live your own life and set a good example. There are plenty of people who have had the opposite experience so humility would mean saying what has been true for you and not assuming that the same is true for someone else. God speed on your journey.

I’m not telling everyone else how they shold live i’m telling everyone that there is another way and we dont have to be this way. A year ago I would’ve been on the other side of the topic but there are somethings I understand more clearly. People want to bash church and religion because they don’t condone the lifestyle and it goes against everything the church stands for. People should try understanding that the church is built on a foundation and principles and they don’t have to marry anyone they don’t want to. The desire is unnatuaral and if people would stop hating God long enough to learn something they might find another way as well. There are thousands of people who have been delivered from homosexuality and found Christ. The proof is in the pudding!

I’m a Presbyterian minister. I don’t hate Christianity or God. I just disagree with you. I can understand that you feel you made a mistake and want to prevent others from making the same mistake, but it might not be a mistake for them. You’ve gone through a lot in a short time span. You might want to do some more healing before you start assuming you’ve stopped growing on this issue. If the proof is in the pudding as you say, I think you can trust God to guide other people, so you can take that weight off your own shoulders. You’ve said your peace, now trust God to do the rest. Let other people live their own lives, just in case you’re wrong.

Sorry Danielle, but how does your Bible explain Adam and Eve having only 3 sons who continued to breed when there’s no other woman around but their mother? This is incest. Is not it a sin too? Besides even if it’s a sin, it’s in our nature to sin. Remember Adam and Eve were banned from heaven for eating the forbidden fruit. No one can fix this, not Jesus, not Muhammed, not Buddha. This is the way it suppose to be. Others’ sins is not your concern unless they are interfering with your rights. This is exactly like the witch hunt in middle ages. Church used to burn people accusing them of witchcraft, now it’s suppressing their rights instead of burning them.

Adam and Eve had other sons and daughters (Genesis 5:4). However, you remind of yet another interesting Biblical note. God, the father, created Adam and Eve. That would make them brother and sister. Wait, but they were husband and wife? When Cain was exiled, he married and procreated. With whom? Well, his sisters were the only women available.

There seems to be this broken record that plays the argument that “God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.” How, then, do you justify the scripture “Cursed be he that lieth with his sister, the daughter of his father, or the daughter of his mother” (Deuteronomy 27:22)? The book kind of contradicts itself more often than the church is willing to admit.

Actually, the Bible only mentions the sons because that was tradition. In the beginning of the world, Eve had daughters too, and her sons married her daughters. There was so much genetic material in the gene pool that it didn’t cause mutations.

There is a big difference between a lost soul who is trying to discover who they are and someone who is “homosexual’. Someone who is homosexual doesn’t just stop being homosexual.

However, someone who has no idea who they are, who tries on a different persona (yes, even for 12 years), may wake up and be enlightened to who they are. There are thousands who after YEARS of marriage, children suddenly confess to their “wife” that they were gay. They were living a lie for others and out of fear.

It is more about being TRUE to YOURSELF than it is “because god forbids it”.

The Bible did not mention any daughters of Adam and Eve. The Jewish writers saw this as a problem and wrote The Book of Jubilees, which mentions two daughters Awan and Azura, who became the wives of Cain and Seth respectively in this explicitly incestuous variant of the story.

In Genesis it is unexplained who their wives were or where they came from.

Much less is known of the nature of female homosexuality. The research that has been done shows that women are much more flexible in their sexuality.

Sorry Danielle, but its much more likely you are bisexual rather than homosexual. All the coming out stories I have seen the person states that they always knew they were different. For the boys, it was always something they knew even before they understood what it meant for their future sexual life.

Danielle, you are indeed telling ppl how to live thier lives. Who made you God? Just because you made a decision to change does not make it the only choice for everyone else. I am NOT bashing you , your church or your lifestyle, but do not bash mine either. Judge not, lest you be judged.
Who is asking to marry in a church? We’re not. Ive known ppl that married on a beach, jumping from an airplane, scuba diving underwater…why? Because thats their choice. They COULD. We cant. Are they any less married because they were not in a church? NO. Im not asking the church to sanctify my relationship with my partner, Im asking the state to. I am a US citizen just as you are and a law is being imposed that does not grant me the same right as you.
And do NOT attempt to tell me that God didnt make me the way I am. I know I was born gay. He made me just as he made you. Every fiber of my being, every thought in my head, every feeling in my heart.
And do NOT tell me because Im gay that I hate God. First of all, I dont hate anything. I dislike. Hate is not in my heart. Hate is taught, it is not, in your words, natural. And,I am a lot of things. I am a man, I am tall, I am white, I am left handed, I am a Texan, I am a christian and, oh yeah, I am gay. Being gay does not define me as a person, it is simply a part of who I am.
My life does not affect your life in any way shape or form, so butt out of it.

Maybe you were simply confused or gaining ground with the old time honored rejection of the norms?

Because I tell you what, I felt incredibly unnatural whenever I was with a man, but feel right at home with my partner. Just because you don’t feel you were in the right doesn’t mean that those who live with their homosexuality and thrive on it are just sitting closet cases for the church to fix.

It is important to understand that not all self-accepting, unapologetically gay people are that way because we “hate God.” There are many more stories than your own. Mine, for example, led to a very different outcome than yours, Danielle. (I’ve written a thoughtful essay about it here: http://on.fb.me/wni7Pn). And “heterosexuality” can be lived in an immoral way just as “homoosexuality” sometimes is, but your choice to behave in an immoral way does not mean all homosexuality is by definition immoral. Actually, I think one of the worst things about the way your church has treated gay & lesian people and taught others to treat gay and lesbian people is that it has encouraged the abandonment and condemnation of gay and lesbian children by parents and other family members. It is terribly hard for people to overcome rejections like that, and the deep pain and deprivation of normal social support have, historically, driven some people to the bar scene for a semblance of “family” connection, as well as to substance abuse and sexual promiscuity as ways to numb that pain, or an expression of the low self worth that rejection has fostered. So in a perverse way, your church’s ignorance and hatred contribute to the very “immoral” conditions that allegedly justify the hatred in the first place. Certainly this isn’t true for all gay people but it is one of the dynamics I have observed.

Absolutely. If you marginalise a group of people and push them to the edges of society to where all the bad stuff is, then those people are more likely to assimilate those things into their lives. If you make it impossible for someone to meet potential partners in a safe environment then you force them to take alternative routes. Like hanging around public toilets or parkland at night for hookups, or if there’s only one club or bar for you and the local weirdos (e.g. dirty old men who also happen to be gay) to go to then invariably you’ll end up coming into contact with them. I’ve never done any of these things but when I was a naive young kid it’s what I thought my life would have to be like if I wanted to have any interaction with other gay people and meet anyone.

It infuriates me that the ‘righteous’ people who segregate gay people and effectively push young gay kids into these environments by infecting them with there own ignorance and prejudice, will then use the self fulfilling prophecy that they’ve created as justification for their belief that gay people are morally corrupt.

I think what often goes misunderstood is the fluidity of sexuality. As humans we like things simple…So, we classify things into two’s (a binary system). We have black and white, we have homosexual and heterosexual, we have boy and girl. Unfortunately, the problem with this thinking is it’s not practical. What it does is try to force people into boxes so we don’t have to deal with the mess of the grey inbetween, but by doing that we miss a lot of people. I am glad that you, seemingly, have found peace with yourself and with God. However, I think a part of that is that only 10% of the population is specifically heterosexual or homosexual. Now, this is debatable, just like the Bible (I know, I know.. It’s not debatable because it’s the word of man.. oops I mean God.) However, in our sex negative culture we have created our institutions to uphold ideals that are not practical and actually cause harm for others who feel that they have done something wrong, that they are less because they don’t fit in with the “normal” crowd. (Normal is relative by the way.) I am a lesbian. Do I think that I could wake up one day and be straight… no. I could definitely act that part though. I did it for a long time, at the expense of causing low self-esteem, internalized homophobia, and self-doubt. I also prayed every night for God to make me not gay. I participated in church. And what it comes down to is this. I am created in God’s image. I can’t spend my life worrying about what other people are saying or doing in their personal life. That is God’s place. Not mine. Nor is it yours. I do want to make one observation though. Is it not true that we all sin? So, why, are you so interested in this one particular sin? When you could worry about people who touch the skin of pigs (that’s a bummer for pig farmers), or those who eat shellfish (that’s a bummer for our seafood industry), how about those that buy magazines that idolize others as well as objects (that’s a bummer for.. well almost all of America), and what about divorce? Let’s all ban together and create a law where people can’t get divorced unless it is under the direct law of the Bible. ( I believe there are only a couple valid circumstances.) I feel like that might be a better use of our time if we are arguing the sanctity of marriage. I am happy for you. Honestly. I wonder, though, if perhaps you, were not born homosexual yet indulged in various sexual acts with a women for whatever reason. I wonder if maybe YOU, just weren’t a lesbian. I do believe, as I am one of them, that I was born this way. So, really, all you can do is speak from your experience. Please remember though, that by spreading the word about reparative practices (the American Psychological Association as well as numerous other medical and psychological agencies have said this does an immense amount of harm to individuals) you are reinforcing people to hate themselves, and that in no way, is a way to help people find their way to God. Ever. All the best to you Danielle.

Not judging you doesn’t mean that I have to agree . I can still love you and disagree with your lifestyle. Jesus wants us to love one another regardless of what sins we commit and we ALL commit them. So, I say we should all pray for enlightenment and tolerance as well as forgiveness because we definitely “know not what we do”!

It’s a mere disagreement as long as we do not interfere in another’s life. I’m hearing you say you are for a “live and let live” approach to people with whom you disagree, which is all anyone could ask.

As a non-Christian, I find #7 to be the most telling in regards to the general culture of hate and ignorance towards the Gay community in America. There seems to be an obsession with the idea that intimate behaviors define our morality. The Hebrew word to describe the sexual act of a man laying with a man as if he were a woman is ‘abomination’. This word is used 100 times to describe other acts of immorality throughout Leviticus, Deuteronomy, and Numbers, most of which are non-sexual in nature. I’m not sure why certain sects of Christianity are only able to focus on just this one regarding a man laying with another man? In my ancestral homeland of Israel, gay men and women are allowed so many more freedoms than any other country in the world. So much so that even Palestinian gays will risk being arrested or even killed by their own countrymen just to sneak across the border into Israel. I do find it sadly ironic that our conservative evangelical Christian community has more in common with Islamic Fundamentalists over gay rights than they do with other Christians and Jews in the United States.

Great conversation on a heated topic. So glad to see “civil” discussion. Pun intended! The Church has always been a huge hypocritical institution mired by its using the Bible as a weapon for things they want to judge. Yet, when shown things from their Bible such as those things in Leviticus and Deuteronomy that are condoned, Christians still only pick and choose what they want as their mantra. The bible clearly condones selling your daughter as a sex slave. So it should be ok today, right? It’s IN the Bible. Why is there murder, rape and horrific acts in the Bible? The Bible is a scam perpetrated by the church to control people. What better way to control than by fear of an all knowing, unseen force that knows everything you do and will punish you in hell? It’s the ancient version of hidden cameras, local police, crime database etc… They had NO way to monitor and control society or behavior until they figured out the God scam. Gods that have powers beyond Mortal Men. But then, they started wars over who’s God was better! Really? I’m going to kill you in the name of my God. Don’t get me going on all the hoopla over “translations” of the Bible! What other book is filled with such venom towards women?

I appreciate the A.A. philosophy of “cleaning up your own side of the street”. I am responsible for my behavior and for discovering those spiritual practices that bring me closer to God. It is not my job to judge others, but, if presented the opportunity, to offer help as appropriate. I find no conflict between this and what I believe to the the heart (not always the prevailing practice) of Christianity.

Great discussion, Thanks for starting it, Jim.
Mostly civilized.
As a long time Christian, I am mystified as to why we focus on the “abomination” of homosexuality (which is a derived and questionable quote) and not on the direct unambiguous quotes from Jesus in the New Testament which are so ignored. What happened to: “feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the imprisoned, care for the sick”? What happened to “love one another as I have loved you”? I find that use of sex and religion to distract from the true message has undermined the role of religion in political discourse. People bring up the Bible and anti -gay rhetoric and many listeners think “moron”.
The Church should render to biology that which belongs there and lead on moral issues on which they have some expertise. Less than 10% of the population is gay, leave them alone. Focus on the large percentage of the kids who go to bed hungry and look for justice for them. And not just alms, but look at the causes and root them out. Greed is not a pretty thing.

I LOVE that quote of “Render unto Biology.” Biology is more complex than the common man or woman understand.

There are plants and animals which do not require sex because they are both male and female in one life-form.

There may come a time when humans will not require sex to reproduce. And I do not mean like today where science is involved.

There are and have always been intersex people born with both male and female sex organs. Are these people male if they seem to be or are they female as they tell a parent later in life?

There was the case of a boy which was a victim of botched circumcision and the doctors removed his male organs. He was raised a girl until he insisted at 12 he was a boy. He was told the truth and lived a married man until he took his life.

Where does our concept of gender and sexuality develop and when? He was raised a girl, looked like a girl, gave toys of girls. But he always played with twin brothers toys, wanted short hair and boys clothes.

He always liked girls and never thought he were gay even after the truth was revealed. If sexuality can be changed and is a learned behavior of choice, than why was he not attracted to boys? Why did he not like dolls or wear dresses? I do not know the reason some are gay buts its natural for them. Life is too brief to not allow our LGBT to live their lives as happy and complete individuals including a rich sexual life. Sex is more than creating a baby for even infertile couples enjoy sex. Its a sharing of yourselves in the most complete way. Our body was created to feel pleasure and sex is a great pleasurable way to bond.

You’re absolutely right on #10- only God may reserve final judgement and Jesus was quite clear that we are to love everyone. That does not equate to a total abandonment of morality, right and wrong, etc. I love my children unconditionally- because of that love I want what is best for them, help them to make good choices, teach them right from wrong, and discipline them when they go astray. THAT is loving them, not letting them do whatever they want because I ‘love’ them.

As for #8, you can only draw that conclusion (that we are bound to Levitical laws) if you completely ignore Matthew 5:17-19. 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”

More than anything, Jim, including the list, I LOVE how you respond to each comment, whether they are for you or no: You don’t just agree with them or disagree, but respond intelligently: Don’t see that too often on the internet. So good for you!

The people in the USA that claim to be “Christian” and want to control the lives of others would be deeply offensive to the real historical figure Jesus of Nazareth if he was alive today – he was an open-minded, forgiving, liberal, progressive social philosopher, much like Buddha. The guy dated a former prostitute.

There is a little bit of anti-gay stuff in the New Testament, but it comes from Paul, who was himself gay and conflicted about it given the social sitgma of the time.

But, what’s the point in having a religion if you can’t piece pick its ancient texts to justify your bigotry?

P.S. King James VI of Scotland, who commissioned the edition of the bible they tend to quote as if it was the Verbatim Word of God (R)(RM), was himself also gay. Somehow this amuses me.

Again I agree with your central point, but I don’t think we know enough to say whether Paul was gay. The anti-gay passages of Paul fall into what some call “Deutero-Pauling Writings” which were put together by someone other than Paul. The words that are translated as “homosexual” are vague and are no longer translated that way by solid scholars. The famous condemnation at the end of the first chapter of Romans actually dissolves if you read the first verse of the second chapter and realize that the section was numbered improperly. The point of Paul’s words is to speak against judging each other, not to judge any one particular group.

Overall, I don’t disagree with most of your post… I am a Christian heterosexual man who views homosexuality as a sin. Sorry, I know that may rub people the wrong way here, but I in no way want to condemn anyone. We are all sinners and all fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). I believe that marriage is a covenant between a man and a woman for life, I draw this definition of marriage from Genesis 2:24. The point of my post is not for me to rant against homosexuality or anything like that, I just wanted to put my views out there

I just wanted to comment on a few of your points that I disagree with not because of my view of homosexuality, but I just think that a few points are a little wrong. The first point is that if Jesus didn’t mention something then it can’t be essential to his teachings. While I agree that homosexuality isn’t an essential teaching, I disagree with this point because if you believe that the Bible is the word of God then all of the Bible is Jesus’ words because he is God. The verses I used for this are primarily 2 Tim 3:16 and John 1:1.

The next point I have a problem with is that marriage is simply a civil ceremony. I believe that it is a God created covenant that is supposed to last for a lifetime. I do believe that in America we have corrupted that covenant with divorce (in the wrong circumstances, there are circumstances in which divorce is acceptable). I don’t believe that marriage now is reflective of what God created it to be. I am for gay marriage in America because it is viewed as a civil ceremony not as a holy covenant. I don’t think that it should be endorsed by the church, but the church and state are separated so thats that.

The final point I am going to discuss is the one about judging others… I agree that we are not to judge non Christians, but I believe that we are to judge believers. IF we are not to judge believers who is to say who is a pastor, elder, or deacon and who isn’t. Who will we trust to help us in our walk with Christ if we do not judge them. This type of judgement is not condemnation to hell, but instead testing character. This is my heart behind my entire post, not to condemn anyone, but to correct and reproof believers. The verses I used for this definition are 1 Corinth 5:12 and 2 Tim 3:16.

Brock, we do disagree, but I appreciate your respectful tone. Let me ask you a question about your objection to whether something Jesus didn’t talk about could be essential to his teaching. If the whole Bible is the word of Jesus, then why isn’t the whole Levitical Code still in tact? Why isn’t eating pork as offensive as “unclean” sexual behavior? Why would a man still not have an obligation to impregnant his brother’s widow if the entire Levitical Code is still intact? According to Paul the law was but a shadow of what God was to reveal. He said anyone under the old law is under a curse. Would you agree that the notion that the whole Bible is the word of Jesus would require us to put the old food laws and cleanliness code back in place? In Acts Peter has a revelation not to call anything unclean that God has called clean. At the time it looks like his vision is about food, but he later realizes that he’s to call no human being “unclean”. I understand that to say the cleanliness code that forbids pork and homosexuality alike, is not longer in effect. What do you think?

@Brock – You would due well to research the history of marriage, it’s roots in why it took hold in the original societies, the ways in which sexual promiscuity would effect all people in the community (and hence incredibly strong punishments for adulterers) , and things of that nature to have a better understanding of what marriage is and how it’s evolved through the years. But, I’m asking an American to actually do some studying and self education, so I’m not holding my breath for you to come back a little more educated and ready to debate the logical fallacies in your pathetic attempt at an argument.

I apologize if I am rehashing points already brought to the table, but I got to a point in the reading where I just wasn’t gaining a new perspective. Simply put, some people need a guide. The teachings of the Bible are a solution to a problem. If you find that the way you have been doing things is not working, try God’s way. The Bible is the first published self help book . Boundaries exist in all parts of our lives and can allow us to all coexist peacefully. The Bible works for some people but not for all.

Daniel, you don’t know me and you certainly don’t know what I believe. How is this kind of mindless reaction any different from the superstition you abhore? When you see what you take to be ignorance, don’t ridicule, teach. If you throw a tantrum everytime you see a fool, what use is your wisdom?

Brock, I also appreciate your respectfulness, and wanted to answer Jim’s question. The things God asked His people to do before Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead were no longer required BECAUSE of Jesus. Many, if not most, Christians believe that the Bible is the word of God and take it at face value and as complete truth, but let’s not be completely naive. The Bible is not the same book, and does not always have the same meanings today as it did 100 or even 20 years ago. Recognizing that there has likely been some pollutant to the true words and their meanings as each generation has modified the Bible to be more in line with with their own interpretations, all we can do is try to be open to the truth from God, and live to the best of our abilities to that Truth with humility in light of the barrier that will be always be present during our lives as humans.

Jim, thanks for these wonderful thoughts. I have read through the many comments, and wanted to give my own two cents. Particularly the arguments about same-sex romantic relationships being ‘unnatural’. This argument so stumps me because so much in our society is unnatural. Shaving, corrective lenses, cars, central air, airplanes. What makes these things OK, but one woman loving another romantically is not? Religious arguments are a poor base for laws in a diverse nation with a secular government; and these secular arguments are no good, either.

This is a wonderful witness to conservative churches, and a great reminder to “the Church” as a whole that many who follow Jesus misunderstand his teachings. My church, the Episcopal Church, gets this. We’ve been ordaining LBGT clergy–including bishops–for more than a decade and are in the process of developing rites for the union of LBGT persons. Likewise, the UCC, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Unitarian, and an increasingly long list of other churches (including, at least in spiritual practice, Roman Catholic ones–see http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=13993) have for some time recognized the God-given dignity of all people and the call of Christ to stand with the marginalized rather than condemning them.

Many of us Christians, in the Church catholic, strive to “walk in love as Christ loved us” with all of God’s children–the poor, the sick, the outcast of every stripe. This is, we believe, what makes us a “holy, catholic, and apostolic church.” It harms the efforts of loving, progressive Christians when those who, with the very best of intentions, name the sins of PART of the Church as the character of “The Church” as a whole. Those more familiar with conservative strains of Christianity that would condemn LBGT people need to know that The Church is much bigger, much more welcoming and inclusive than the actions of these pointedly lower case churchES suggest.

THE CHURCH as a whole is not conservative, fundamentalist, evangelical, biblical literalist, theologically uncritical Christianity. So, while I appreciate the witness your post makes to SOME churches within THE CHURCH, I’d be so grateful if you would not paint my opening, welcoming, loving church with the same brush. How about changing the title to “Ten Things I Wish CONSERVATIVE ChurchES Knew About Homosexuality”? Or maybe 11 Things, one of which would be that THE CHURCH is bigger, holds much greater diversity, and continues to express the love of Christ to all people in ways that many conservative Christians have yet to realize.

I apologize for posting without reading all of the comments. What I have read are several arguments concerning what is righteous and sinful according to the bible. First of all, the bible is not God. It certainly has helped me understand God better, but God is not limited to the bible. God is a living being that we can experience in our lives, and is not limited to what is contained in any scripture, including the bible. Also, sin is an inescapable part of being human. Sin isn’t the bad things we do, it’s a part of who we are. None of us will ever be righteous, especially before God. That is why I put my faith in Jesus, who is my mediator between God and myself. No matter how we live our lives, what our sexual orientation is, or how much we understand the bible, those things don’t make us right before God. For Christians, it’s our faith is Jesus is what makes right. It’s all Jesus’ doing, not ours. So I implore us to treat each other with love, and not fear and hate.

I’m sorry that you feel like the church is persecuting you, rather than defending its principles. If you believe that white lies (or alternatively murder) is wrong, and speak out against it, are you “persecuting” those truth benders?

Anyway, #8 in your list is not correct. There are many instances in the New Testament where homosexuality is condemned as a sin, including 1 Corinthians 6:9-10.

I think that unfortunately marriage and state have been too mixed together — marriage should be left to the churches/temples/mosques, etc and civil ceremonies to the state. It would be much simpler, and also like you say not discriminatory, to let the state join together any type of consenting adult couple in a civil ceremony.

Lastly, this idea of Jesus as a hippyish, lovey-dovey guy is not the complete picture. As you probably know, He says in Luke: ““I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! But I have a baptism to undergo, and what constraint I am under until it is completed! Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division.” He loves us as well, but He also asks us to make ourselves perfect and follow Him (and He judges us). What the perfection process is, is different for everyone. I believe that if we truly repent and pray for help with our besetting sins that God will answer our prayers.

Julie, Thanks for writing. Actually, I’m not gay, but I do think the church is persecuting gay and lesbian people. If you look at a concordance I think you’ll be in for a shock. That word translated in Corinthians does not have a clear meaning. None of the words translated in the New Testament would be clear enough to make the case, unless one started the research with that position to begin with. Neither Greek nor Hebrew had one word for what we call homosexuality, which means we are looking at euphemisms not clear definitions. As someone has pointed out here the English word “homosexual” does not go back very far either. We don’t use the Bible to do science any more. Any botanist who said the mustard seed is the smallest seed based on what Jesus said would lose his or her job. No one does astronomy using the Bible alone. It’s time to bring that same enlightenment to how we treat our brothers and sisters. I really appreciate your politeness.

Sure, leave the term “marriage” to the churches. As Elizabeth points out above, that would overnight mean a lot more gay marriages. Many churches want the right to marry gay people. Give them their freedom of religion!

On speaking out against lies and murder, it’s important this be done to *prevent harm*. It’s not persecution because it is *protecting victims* when other have overstepped their bounds. (Responses should be proportional, of course, we do not punish lying and murdering equally, for instance.) As neither a specific sexual orientation or gender of partner does any harm at all, speaking out against it does not have the same purpose as speaking against lies and murder. In fact, speaking out against homosexuality has been shown to do great harm to gay people, and therefore needs to be spoken out against – like lies and murder.

40 or 100 years from now these arguments will appear in a much different light…kind of like the Crusades appear now. Sure, when it was happening everyone thought it was a great idea…now we see that it wasn’t that productive (killing and raping people never is). Same thing with this issue of marriage…it seems important now but probably irrelevant in the future. People will probably wonder why we gave such a big fuss about such a small legality as marriage and not spent our time on more important issues like poverty, employment, hunger. Legally speaking(and this is a legal issue), it is a civil right and by default is available to all citizens.

At least in terms of the Catholic Church, we do not see homosexuals as inherrently evil or wrong; what we do say is that sex outside of marriage (and by this we mean the sacramental marriage, not the civil one which we recognize fully as being existant (CCC 1650)) is always wrong: it called fornication (CCC 1756). We also view that a sacramental marriage must be between a man and a woman (CCC 1601) because central to marriage is child bearing. As I stated earlier, the Church does not specifically oppose civil union for homosexuals but maintains that sex outside of marriage (including within civil union) is an immoral behaviour. That said, it is a venial sin (assuming that it does not also include adultry) meaning that it need not be confessed in order to be absolved and is, in fact, absolved by a private act of contrition. Furthermore, it is no worse, according to the Catholic Church, than heterosexual fornication. So, all in all, homosexuals are as welcome in the Catholic Church as are heterosexuals.

So, infertile couples can’t enter sacramental marriage either? Oh wait, that’s right, they can. But surely if a couple chooses not to have children… No, them too, eh? But since I plan to have my wife impregnate me, and will therefore bear children with her (like any straight couple with a sperm donor), there must be some exception I can apply for, right? I mean, since marriage is all about childbearing. No, no exception, huh? Are you sure this has anything to do with children?

And, what if I’m not contrite? Do I go to hell then? Ooh, I feel so welcome already!

From a civil rights stand point, I totally agree with you. God gives us free will. And what 2 adults choose to do, that isn’t harming anyone, is their business. We can’t use Christianity as a justification to persecute and remove the freedom of will that God gives us. However, I can’t agree with your scriptural interpretations. Most Christians believe homosexuality is a sin because it is referred to several times in the new testament as such, in several verses. And you can argue that the words don’t really mean what the words state, but then you start to go down a slippery slope where scripture become full of errors and is not the word of God. To someone who isn’t a Christian, that wouldn’t be a big deal. But to most Christians, to deny that God’s word says what is says, is to deny your faith. This is something that I wish people who weren’t Christians understood. That I think homosexuality is a sin, not because I hate homosexuals or want them to be repressed, but because my faith is in the Bible, and that is what the new testemant says. If it was only in Leviticus, then yes, we could dismiss that with the hundreds of other no longer valid rules in Leviticus. But it is also explicitly mentioned several times in the new testament.

Part of the other danger of these types of arguments is a to ignore the much much bigger Christian belief in sin, man’s fallen nature, and idolatry. Specifically, that we all have a desire to sin. Be it lying, gluttony, sexual imorality, divorcing spouses, abusing children, hatred, greed, not caring for the poor….the list goes on and on. The danger in moral relativity, or the idea that people can do whatever they wish so long as it makes them feel good, is that it ignores even the reality of sin. And according to most Christians, all this sin is the result of idolatry- when you put yourself first instead of God. God places demands, tough demands, on all Christians, to deny ourselves and our wordly desires to abstain from sin and serve him first. This is a constant struggle within each of us, to deny the flesh and live as Christ has called us to. And while I would never expect a non-Christain to follow this difficult way of life, I would hope they could at least understand the basic theology that is behind why we live how we live.

Car, Thanks for writing. Would you agree there is also a slippery slope in taking something Jesus didn’t even talk about and pretending it is central to his message, and taking a central teaching that we are not to judge one another, and pretend like he didn’t say it?

Sorry, which English translation of the bible do you view an infallible? The discussion here is about what the oldest manuscript we have actually say. In this case, the people wi the Greek are saying “it says what it says” and you are saying “no, it says what this fallible human translated it into English as saying”. Our Greek geeks are the ones being faithful to the biblical text, not you. Imagine the slippery slope if all botched translations suddenly became inerrant.

And absolutely no one here has said that people should just do whatever makes them feel good. No one is saying there aren’t standards. What they are saying is that God isn’t placing additional, near unbearable (and often for some iliterally unbearable) on specific classes of people and not others by virtue of their birth. We believe in a just God.

As a non-Christian, I have absolutely zero interesting in understanding your theology. Also, I’m not going out and studying up on Zoroastrian theology, which is also totally a legit religion. Whether you’re Catholic, Baptist, Mormon, or Unitarian, I don’t care what theory you base your behaviour on, I care about your behaviour and how it affects me, and how it inflicts harm on people. Campaigning to prevent a group of people from having the same civil rights that you have is inflicting harm. It doesn’t matter why you’re doing it, it’s not what people in civil societies do.

While I deplore the abuse/intimidation/discrimination against LGBT sisters and brothers, there is a technical point to be made about Biblical interpretation. No legitimate argument can be made from silence, that is, what Jesus DID NOT say. The only thing one can say about that is the fact that no statement by Jesus has survived. That communicates nothing about what Jesus MIGHT have thought. Jesus also said nothing about crack cocaine, insider trading, tenant rights, or, for that matter, war. Jesus said nothing about circumcision, which was a major issue in the early church.
Jesus did say to love God and love the neighbor as oneself, which covers a lot of ground and is frequently ignored by the homophobic.

Don’t recall Jesus ever mentioning child molestation as a sin either but common sense & morality ought to tell us it is a very Vile sin as is homosexuality forget the old testament Paul laid it out for us very clearly in Romans chapter one that this sin of homosexuality is one of the most abnormally Vile,Nasty , Filthy Sins this side of Hell !! The only time in scripture that God literally pored Hell out of heaven onto earth was due to this sin in Sodom so you so called christians that are trying to make excuses for & accept this sin do so at your own peril but I for one will defend the trurh and bow to the authority of scripture !

The punchline of the first chapter happens in the first verse of the second chapter which says, therefore you have no right to judge. So you are misusing Paul. The prophets are very clear that the sin of Sodom was abuse, so you are misusing them as well.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 in the Amplified Bible, New Living Translation, New American Standard Bible, and the New International Version mention it, not just Leviticus. And in the KJV, ‘abusers of themselves with mankind’ in verse 9 is defined in these other translations……just sayin’

See above. And you’ll notice that “homosexual” only occurs in translations *after* the 1960s. Translations changed to match the preoccupations of the societies around it. They aren’t defining the KJV phrase, they are redefining it.

3. There are numerous sexual sins, not just homosexuality. Looking at porn is also a sin.

4. Everyone has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

5. We all deserve condemnation, Hell, and death.

6. Homosexuals are in no more need of forgiveness of sins than anyone else is.

7. God is willing to forgive everyone.

8. Jesus died for the sins of everyone.

9. There are more important things in life than sex. Jesus died a virgin.

10. The issue is not, “Can I have sex with whoever I want? Am I condemned?” The question is, Have you confessed your sin to Jesus? Have you received a new heart and by God’s grace moved forward to live a new life?

Since there are more than 2000 references to the poor/those living in poverty in the Bible, I look forward to the day when that becomes the central focus of Christianity. And the only place I am aware of where Jesus talks about “eternal hellfire” is for those nations who do not feed the hungry, clothe the naked, welcome the stranger (alien/immigrant) or treat the prisoner humanely (“visit the prisoner”). (Mt. 25:31-45) When will we Christians see those as “the sins of the world”?

I have read many of these remarks, and you ALL know the bible far better than I do. However, I have always found it interesting that anyone argues that marriage is between a man and a woman for the purpose of procreation. Overpopulation aside, does this mean that the “church” also refuses to marry sterile (due to infertility, age, or otherwise) people? Is sex between a couple who were “properly” married in the “church” fornication and therefore equally as immoral as homosexual sex – if one of them is incapable of procreating?

Funnily enough, any non-procreative sex was described as unnatural and St Augustine (early Church) preached that a man who married a woman he knew to barren was committing sin. But that was dropped centuries ago because it didn’t fit with what society wanted. So apparently conservative christians can pick and choose the Church’s teachings when it is they and not others who are faced with decisions to which the outcome is untenable for them.

This is a wonderful list and a lively and well-monitored discussion. Jim, you are an inspiration. one little thing I would add is that same-sex behavior is probably referred to with condemnation in both Hebrew and Greek scriptures, but not because of a concept of same-sex preference or relationship, because there’s no sign of that concept in the language. There was an exploitive system of temple prostitution that predates both scriptures in the canaanite and greek religions and which included the full range of sexual matchups. General condemnations of sexual sins commonly had to do with proscribed sexual behaviors associated with priestly manipulation in what was considered false religion. The idea that they were thinking about gay marriage or sexual preference is projecting our modern concepts back on an ancient culture focused on something very different from this discussion.

do you also think polygamists should be able to marry as many women as they want just because that is what they believe or stimulates their pubic nerve? curious where the line is drawn. there are many people with different sexual tendencies. some are attracted to animals. the human anatomy makes sense. it’s not too hard to figure out the way our bodies were created to fit together man and woman. to me, homosexuality is kind of gross because of the whole feces factor. IT’S OK for me to feel that way, but that also doesn’t make me hate or treat homosexuals differently. there is a difference between judging and believing something is morally wrong. to say that marriage should be between man and woman doesn’t necessarily mean it’s wrong to be homosexual. why is that not acceptable to homosexuals? why can’t homosexuals understand that heterosexuals don’t have to agree that homosexuality is moral? i married my husband because i love him and wanted to create a family with him. not for tax breaks, not for any of these civil rights that i hear homosexuals talking so much about. those thoughts never even crossed my mind. if i couldn’t marry him, i would still be with him and love him. why does there have to be a label. marriage is hard. life is hard for everyone. just get along and be happy. we’re all doing our best.

I don’t care if you think my sex is immoral. I would care if it meant I couldn’t get married because you think too much about feces.

I married my wife because I love her and plan to have a family with her. The label is our social acceptance, our full recognition in society as a family unit. I want it for all the reasons you do. Easy to say it doesn’t matter that much when no one is questioning your right to have it.

You do understand that “anal sex” is not the same thing as homosexuality don’t you? When you mentioned the whole “feces thing”. There are plenty of straight couples who have anal sex and have to deal with the “feces” thing. It might surprise you to find out that some of your good friends may have anal sex and enjoy it, but they don’t talk about it, because it is their personal business. Do you know who actually talks about anal sex the most? Heterosexual folks, in particular high school to young adult males (and many adult “juvenile” males). Surprisingly not homosexuals. If you doubt this – just do an internet search and compare the number of hits for homosexual anal sex and heterosexual anal sex.

You can have a homosexual relationship with someone without ever having anal sex. And homosexual females don’t ever have a reason to muck about in that area anyway.

So, most people are grossed out by anal sex. Sure. But that is what your image of homosexual relationships is reduced to and that is sad. People don’t want you to accept how they practice the actual sex act behind closed doors (I gotta tell you that most non-porn sex, is awkward, embarrassing, pretty boring, and every person has their own peculiarities) – they want to be accepted and recognized for their mutual respect and love.

I’m totally okay with polygamists, and polyandrists, and groups of both together, as long as everybody involved is a consenting adult. I’m not okay with bestiality, because animals can’t consent. I’m not okay with adult/child sex, because children can’t consent. I’m absolutely fine with people staying single and chaste their whole lives if they want to.

You may not have married just for tax breaks and other benefits, but you benefit from them because you happen to have been allowed to legally marry. Just because you don’t particularly value them is no reason to deny them to others.

You didn’t need to marry your husband to have a family with him or because you loved him. You weren’t looking for tax breaks and of course it wasn’t because you wanted to uphold a civil right (no-one ever does something because it’s their civil right, they do it because it’s something they want to do). So why did you marry him? For the same reasons anybody else does, whether they’re gay or straight, that’s why.

It’s very hard for a parent of a gay child to read the condemnation that some of these posts have. When my son told me he was gay I cried. I didn’t cry because he was gay, I cried because I knew his life would be harder because of the discrimination, hate and ignorance of some. My son is gay and my daughter is straight and I love them both the same. They are my children and they are Gods children! Thank you Jim for being such a forceful voice in behalf of our LGBT community!

I am so sorry for the hurt caused by those within the Christian faith, Sandy. I just hope that our love for your son and all LGBT people and who they are expands enough to make all the hurtful thoughts and beliefs meaningless some day.

Does anyone here who keeps using the homosexuality is a sin argument even know any gay people? Because your arguments sound awfully similar to those that dictators, oppressive leaders and bigots use to describe “the others.” If you had a child who was gay, you would be faced with a real dilemma. Hate who you love or begin to realize that “homosexuals” are actually people, just like you, who deserve to love others, just like you do. If you knew the anxiety and real fear that coming out to your loved ones who may deny your existence, being bullied and persecuted afterwards, you would see that only a true masochist would go through that, unless they realized that the pain of denying who they were was greater than coming out.

It seems an awful lot of time is spent getting boiled over about the immorality of the sex act between two people that aren’t married and are of the same sex, yet what this is really about is being allowed to love and care for another human being. And that’s how I like my Christians.

Elizabeth, I had the exact same thought when I read Sandys post. If any of these people who vilify homosexuals were to ever know one, they may see things differently. God help them if they had a child that was gay. Ive known too many boys and girls that were thrown out of their parents homes like yesterdays garbage simply for being gay.
The sad truth is they do know gay people, they just dont know it. Your doctor, your lawyer, your priest, your minister, your brother, your cousin, the policeman, the firefighter, the soldier….do you ask them of their sexual practices before they help you? We’re not all florists, flight attendants or ballet dancers.
I have a question for these so called christian people. (For some reason they tend to focus on the anal sex part of the lifestyle. Many heterosexuals do that as well. But thats okay, I guess.) If your ‘marriage’ is defined by one man and one woman, how do the Mormans fit in? They seem to think they can have plural wives. And by wives I mean 12 year old girls. If you base marriage on procreation, what about infertile couples? Couples that choose not to have children. What about senior citizens that marry later in life? And if you base your marriages on eternity, then what about 72- hour marriages or the seven times divorced person that wants to marry? (I believe Liz had 8, right? Well, seven if you count one twice.) Is this the sanctity of marriage they speak of? Just wondering.

Whenever I hear anti-gay Christians saying we should think of the children, that they need to be protected, I think of the likes of 14 year old Kenneth Weishuhn who came out a month ago and committed suicide last week. He looked like a sweet kid, he had a pinterest page dedicated to things he wanted when he met and married Mr Right, but he was the victim of a Facebook hate campaign and received death threats on his cell. Exactly which of those ‘Christians’ were thinking of or protecting him?

IMO, the biggest take-away of Christ’s message is that God loves us no matter what, so we should do the same to everybody else. These are excellent points to remind us of that. Thanks so much for sharing!

All I have to say is that my relationship with God and Jesus is sacred – and something no man or woman of this blessed earth will ever come in between… my choices and decisions are governed
by God alone : I meet my maker every day. Whether I sin or not: in my makers eyes I am his child and am loved and forgiven: just as I forgive those who I arrogantly deem ‘my enemies’, just as we must learn to forgive ourselves. The prayer of St Francis is indeed one of the greatest gifts – along side the Lord’s prayer…. God wants us to love – not fight. The Dalai Lama was once asked about his religion – he responded quite simply – his religion is ‘kindness’. Jesus spoke along similar lines in the Sermon on the Mount. Why do so many waste time ‘in conflict’. God is not a mental exercise – always loving, gracious, and forgiving. Why do we so often forget ?

Lord, make me an instrument of your peace.
Where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury,pardon;
where there is doubt, faith;
where there is despair, hope;
where there is darkness, light;
and where there is sadness, joy.

O Divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek
to be consoled as to console;
to be understood as to understand;
to be loved as to love.
For it is in giving that we receive;
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned;
and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.

Just as an FYI, if you read em’s post, understand that she does not post comments. Em, I have to say that it disturbs me when someone responds in such a way that appears to be creating a Christianity in your own image rather than giving serious reflection to these issues. I don’t see in this post your responding to Rev. Rigby’s comments giving support to his blog post.

and you know, it all comes down to this: homosexuality is a sin, but it’s not a sin any worse than lying or stealing or coveting. in God’s eyes, sin is sin. we still need to turn from it, we still need to repent. it’s not homosexuality itself we’re against; it’s sin.

So the best parts of me are no worse than the worse parts of you? Well gee, thanks. When I love and care for my wife, it’s no worse than if I went out and murdered someone? How comforting. Where do I sign up?

Saying that just because Jesus didn’t specifically teach of the subject means it’s not sin is wrong. So then does that mean incest, having sex with animals, child molestation, heroine use is not a sin? Jesus did not specifically speak of these things, but we know it is sin. The Word of God has no gray areas. God chose each word thoughtfully and precisely knowing how it would be translated in the future for his children to read and follow…not to be confused. My sister in law is gay and I love her very much. And I dont judge her for what her choices are. But lets calls sin what it is, sin. We all sin and we can all be forgiven.

I didn’t say that just because Jesus didn’t teach something that it’s okay. I just pointed out that it is lying to say he said something when he didn’t. If you want to judge homosexuality go ahead, just leave Jesus out of it.

Yes. And because God planned out how all of His words would be translated and interpreted, it is His eternal and unchanging directive that His children be confused. Remember, divine confusion has no gray areas.

Help me understand why Jesus commanded us not to judge. Why does the story of the woman caught in adultery put scripture in the hand of the accusers? They are right that scripture said to stone the woman, so what did they get wrong?

2 Timothy 3-4 “3 For a time is coming when people will no longer listen to sound and wholesome teaching. They will follow their own desires and will look for teachers who will tell them whatever their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will reject the truth and chase after myths.“

Kari, doesn’t it also sound like everyone else you disagree with? When you interprete the words “unsound teaching” as “someone whose ideas sound wrong to me,” doesn’t that leave you using yourself as the measure of what “unsound” means? Sure you’ll think of scriptures to prove your case, but you’re opponent is doing the same thing. What if the word “truth” here is referring to our one shared reality and not to your or my interpretation of it?

I think Polygamy is more of a religion based exercise than the civil marriage contract that many homosexuals are fighting for. And to Anonymous, two things. First, “the feces factor” – not all homosexuals engage in anal sex (male or female). Second, you are able to have the civil right and enjoy the responsibilities and tax benefits and other rights associated therewith – if that part doesn’t matter to you – then why does it matter to you if others have the choice to enjoy them? Homosexuals also want to be with the people they love… but additionally would like the added benefits that the civil contract of marriage provides.

To reply to Jim’s question- I can understand how is seems confusing, that if Jesus didn’t say it, then it isn’t central to his teaching. But one of the major underlying theological tenents of Christianity is the trinity- God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit is one. Another underlying tenet is that the bible is the word of God, so it is also the word of Jesus according to our belief in the trinity. And I also want to say that I am saddened whenever christians express hatred or judgment towards homosexuality. All sin is equal before God. The bigger issue is self denial. One of my favorite pastors, Mark Driscoll, says that for the unsaved, earth is the closest to heaven that you will ever get. But for the saved, earth is the closest to hell that you will ever get. And this makes so much sense when you look at how being a Christian means sacrificing so many desires of the flesh, knowing that this world and its temptations are only temporary. But if you don’t believe that, then why would you ever deny yourself anything that makes you happy? If you think this world is all you’ve got, then it makes total sense to live for self-fullfillment. And this is the root of sin. When our God is ourselves, it makes sense to abandon unhappy marriages, or not give to charity, or do whatever else makes us happy, so long as it doesn’t get us into trouble. And this behavior puts the self first, not others. Whereas as Jesus calls us to put ourselves to death, be alive in Christ, and constantly sacrifice ourselves for others.

Car, Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I guess in my experience I’ve seen so many faithful and dedicated gay Christians that, at this point, I don’t reduce their relationships to the act of sex anymore. I certainly used to do that, and thought of them as promiscuous simply because I was focused on the sex part. The truth is, most gay people are as boring as we are. They spend most of their week working and cleaning and talking. Sex is no more the center of their relationship than it is in heterosexual marriages.

Our church had a field of crosses for gays and lesbians who had lost their partners to AIDS. People streamed in. Some of them were still mourning partners they had lost ten years ago. If that’s not faithfulness I don’t know what is.

I think a lot of people are missing the whole concept of the Bible as a whole. You see the reason Leviticus was written was because God’s people were lawless sinners. They needed direction. They needed someone to tell them what to do and when to do it. They needed structure, right and wrong, the “word of God”. Leviticus was about what sacrifices God expected from us.

When Jesus made the ultimate sacrifice, His blood shed for our sin, God required no other blood sacrifice from man from that point on. Basically, anything in the “law” that had to do with a blood sacrifice was made obsolete. That does not make the rest of the Old Testament obsolete.

These passages are meant to inform and to teach. To lead us to a higher knowledge about God and ourselves. To get us to the next place. Not to argue about what the “law” still is. We can legalize God all we want, but that is not going to get us to heaven. Only living the way we know in our hearts is right will get us there.

If you have ever felt the hand of God on you, ever felt the presence of Jesus Christ in your life, you know that only through God’s eyes and by His will can you ever have the answer to these questions. Is homosexuality wrong? It is not for us to judge, that is up to God. Our only job as Christians is to follow God’s teachings and accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior.

It is that simple. Stop using “legal ease” people and start loving. It is OK to like your gay next door neighbor, even if you don’t agree with their lifestyle. Besides, my God wants me to love my neighbor, right?

“Sacrifice,” Ahn, means to make something sacred. What it seems you’re referring to is the troubling belief, promoted by Anselm, Archbishop of Canterbury in 1098CE (or AD), that Jesus’ death was a substitution for ritually slaughtered animals. But in Luke 9:23, we are told to “take up our cross,” which wouldn’t be necessary if Jesus’s execution on the cross were the final word. And just as a substantial part of Leviticus directing how animals are to be ritually slaughtered no longer applies, then the purity laws should be seen in the same way. That leaves Paul and much has been written in these comments to address Paul’s writings on “homosexuality” as to why they are incorrectly interpreted.

I’ve read back to deep into February, and I haven’t seen this point made, so here goes…

This list is awesome, and right on target. I am sharing it on my facebook page, but with one added comment: Not all churches, nor all Christians, have to be taught these basic truths about homosexuality, bisexuality, and gender differences. I am an ELCA Lutheran, and our denomination has approved the ordained service of gay and lesbian ministers, and we are not the only denomination which has done so. We also have the right, as individual congregations within our denomination, to marry people of the same sex.

To lump all Christians into the same ultra-conservative, anti-gay boat is as inaccurate as saying that all atheists are liberals.

Laura. I’m an ordained Presbyterian minister so obviously I don’t put all Christians in that same boat. Like you, I know Christians (and people of all faiths) all over the country who get this. Thanks for making that clear.

If Jesus did not mention a subject, it cannot be essential to his teachings.
“All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work” –2 Tim 3:16. If Jesus is God (which He is), then He DID mention it. Don’t have that duality in your view. Scripture is comprehensive. Don’t forget that if it’s in there, Jesus breathed it, inspired it, and it’s trustworthy.
2. You are not being persecuted when prevented from persecuting others.
It’s not persecuting others to stand up for Biblical truth. It’s not persecution to simply claim something is a sin; and come to the defense of Biblical attacks and illiteracy. It’s not persecution to uphold the value of Scripture and allow IT to change us, instead of our culture changing Scripture to somehow come in line with its sinful desires. And because we believe that Satan is “prowling around like a lion…” then we believe that he is on the attack. He is ALWAYS out to attack and divide. So, yeah, we ARE being persecuted for our beliefs. Satan is always against God’s Word and Jesus’ church. Praise Jesus that His church is never going to fail, because of His promise that “I will build my church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.”
3. Truth isn’t like wine that gets better with age. It’s more like manna you must recognize wherever you are and whoever you are with.
You’re right, truth is not like wine. Truth is Jesus Christ, the man, the Word. Who, by the way, is not like manna, either. He is “the same yesterday, today, and always”, as is His Word. I guess, in a way, it’s like wine. Those words were written down (bottled up at various points in time), and are forever preserved. We can ‘uncork’ the Word of God and see that we can “taste and see that the Lord is good…”. I like Billy Graham’s old motto: “Anchored to the Rock, Geared to the Times”. Jim isn’t anchored, unfortunately. Geared to the times, yes. But he assumes that the Rock changes. It doesn’t. That’s why we build our foundation upon it.
4. You cannot call it “special rights” when someone asks for the same rights you have.
It’s actually a special right to demand to have no accountability for sin. I WOULD call it special rights if a polygamist demanded a tax break so that he could have as many wives as he wants, and receive additional incentives to marry multiple wives. Why is polygamy not allowed? Seriously? What’s wrong with it? [sarcastic tone intended] I WOULD consider it “special rights” if a person who wanted to have sex with HIS sheep wanted a tax break for each sheep that he owned. Or if he paraded in the streets of the pride of his sheep pillaging. Ask yourself, “What wrong is there in having sex with sheep, or any other animal that YOU own that you could theoretically have sex with, if it doesn’t cause it physical harm?”
5. It is no longer your personal religious view if you’re bothering someone else.
No, it’s not my view, you’re right. It’s God’s. You can take it up with Him.
6. Marriage is a civil ceremony, which means it’s a civil right.
Marriage is not a civil ceremony. It is a Biblical concept and a spiritual union. It’s so much bigger than the piece of paper. I wonder if your wife appreciates your view of your “ceremonial” union…?
The ceremony is simply the outward representation of the inward, or spiritual reality, just like Communion, Baptism, or circumcision. I wonder, too, is Baptism outdated? Is it a worthless, meaningless tradition? Should non-believers be welcomed at the Communion table?
7. If how someone stimulates the pubic nerve has become the needle to your moral compass, you are the one who is lost.
Actually, the unchanging Word of God is my compass, and it’s clear about what is sin and what is not. The more concerning issue is our culture’s lack of a moral compass, which is, in the words of the book of Judges, “…each one did what was right in his own eyes”. That is anything but unchanging. As a “pastor” it is disturbing that you don’t have a foundation upon the Rock…
Side note: if it’s only about how someone stimulates their pubic bone, then quit demanding special rights and going after the very definition of BIBLICAL marriage. But way, you’d have us believe that it actually IS about more than just sexual stimulation…
8. To condemn homosexuality, you must use parts of the Bible you don’t yourself obey. Anyone who obeyed every part of Leviticus would rightly be put in prison.
Again, it’s not about condemning anyone. That right is reserved for God Almighty. It is not persecution, attack, condemnation, or hate to simply call a sin a sin.
9. If we do not do the right thing in our day, our grandchildren will look at us with same embarrassment we look at racist grandparents.
Uh…ok?
10. When Jesus forbade judging, that included you.
You’re right. I’ll leave it up to God to judge. It’s not judgement, as you would have people believe, to simply call a sin a sin. How are we to preach, or turn peoples’ hearts to Christ if we don’t help them become aware of their sin and need for salvation and mercy? I’m not saying pointing exclusive fingers, either. It’s true that we “all sin and fall short of the glory of God.” It’s not judgement to say that “you have sin that needs forgiveness, healing, and fixing. You need to repent.” If we can’t call people to repentance, then I guess John the Baptist’s ministry was completely for naught.

That’s all I’ll say for now, other than I’m embarrassed to have someone like Jim call themselves a pastor. Pastors are supposed to look out for the sheep, to protect from the wolves, and to sound the alarm when there are clear and present dangers. Jim is a wolf in sheep’s clothing. There is no commitment to the inerrancy of Scripture, the authority of Scripture, or the truth of Scripture. I don’t know what else to call that other than sad. It’s sad that a pastor cannot stand for the Truth of the Word of God.

Ok. And was there hate in my list? No. None whatsoever. I have good friends that are gay and I love them dearly. I’ve looked them in the eyes and told them that I love them. Nowhere in my post is there hate, torture, etc “spewing” forth. I provided scripture in most points. It’s not hate to call sin sin. Jesus, when he was speaking with the woman at the well told her, “now go, and leave your life of sin.” It’s not hateful to call someone out of their life of sin. Quite the contrary. It’s calling them to life.
Another point I should have made, was that in the Garden there was ‘shalom’, peace, harmony, and perfect fellowship. And there was man and woman. The ‘Creation Mandate’, as it’s commonly known, is to “fill the earth and subdue it”. Homosexualtiy cannot produce offspring, which is one of mankind’s primary purposes of existence. Marriage and family are the two best ways that we experience God. But Satan has gotten us off track by having us redefine the terms and get caught up in lingo. It’s brilliant, actually, bc it takes our minds off of the real issues, and that’s the authority and trustworthiness of the Word of God. It’s the oldest trick in the book. “Did God REALLY say….?”
Anyway, the Bible is very clear on these issues. True, Jesus never explicitly spoke of ‘homosexuality’, as it were. But he also never really spoke of ‘sexuality’ either. Marriage has always been between a man and a woman, so that didn’t need to be addressed. He DID speak of marriage, and is clear on that. So why do we still seem to doubt or question his words?! Again, oldest lie from Satan, right from the garden. As Paul says, “we are not ignorant of his [Satan’s] schemes…” Don’t be deceived. Satan is at war with our hearts, minds, and culture. And nothing less that our souls is at stake. It’s serious. And to treat it like it’s not serious is a travesty.

Roger Patterson, according to 2 Timothy 3:16, is not the Qu’ran and Book of Mormon “God-breathed” then? By the very definition of what ‘scripture’ is, they both absolutely fall under that category and are therefore just as valid words of who/what we both believe to be our God. Just because you don’t believe in them or follow them doesn’t mean they’re not “scripture.” Scripture is just the name for a religious code of conduct, written words that are followed by a particular church or group of churches. That being said, I think you need to talk to God about the kinds of things he’s saying to all sorts of people before you jump on others for a simple act of attraction.

While it is true that there is no NT record of where Jesus explicitly stated that homosexuality is wrong, He did in fact condemn the behavior. A careful study of the Bible will bear this out. Please read the following Bible passages and then consider the questions which follow:

1. And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ “and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh?’” (Matt. 19:4.)

Questions: What did Jesus say about God’s creative work? Did He make Adam and Joseph? Did He create male and male, or did He create male and female? According to this passage, what has been God’s plan for sexual union [one flesh] since the beginning of time? Was His plan for a male partner to be joined to another male partner, or was it for a husband to be united to his wife? According to this passage, is a man to cleave to his male partner, or to his spouse?

Consider: Since Jesus approved of His Father’s plan [i.e., one man, one woman, one flesh,] could we correctly say that Jesus condemned homosexuality?

2. “For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?” (John 5:46-47.)

Questions: What law was Jesus born under? What law did He live under? Answer: The Law of Moses (cf. Gal. 4:4.) Did Jesus endorse and follow the Law of Moses? What did the Law of Moses say about homosexuality? (Lev. 18:22; 20:13; Deut. 23:17.)

Consider: Since Jesus was born and lived under the Law of Moses, and since He endorsed the Law of Moses, and since the Law of Moses explicitly condemned homosexuality, then could we correctly say that Jesus also condemned it?

Approving of one plan does not mean to condemn all others. From Adam and Eve’s grandchildren men had multiple wives and polygamy is never condemned in the bible. Paul promotes celibacy despite this “plan”. Jesus Himself even goes on to talk about eunuchs as exceptions. Condoning one thing is far from condemning all alternatives.

God did not “write” the bible. Jesus did not “write” the bible. It was written by man (and in some cases women I believe – but they were conveniently left out). And as such, man puts their own spin on what is said.

We all know that the bible has been reinterpreted throughout the ages – with many, many variations.

We also know and understand human nature. Isn’t it possible, even a shadow of a doubt – that what was written down was written with some sort of agenda, even 2,000 years ago? Isn’t it possible that the original words have been lost throughout the ages as powerful men have gotten their hands on it and remade it in their own image?

If it truly is the “word of god” then we must assume that he possessed the people writing so that they wrote exactly what he wanted. Otherwise, it is left to human interpretation.

And I believe that is the point – god doesn’t want us to be puppets – he wants us to thin for ourselves – to live a life that is holy – in his image.

Oh dear, selective quoting is not proof of ANYTHING other than your own bias and poor research.

1. And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ “and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh?’” (Matt. 19:4.)

Should really be:

Matthew 19
Divorce
1 When Jesus had finished saying these things, he left Galilee and went into the region of Judea to the other side of the Jordan. 2 Large crowds followed him, and he healed them there.

3 Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”

4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’[a] 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’[b]? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

7 “Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?”

8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

10 The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.”

11 Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”

So, it’s not about gay people at all but a specific question about divorce between a man and a woman so of course he answers in that vein. Hint, if the quote starts with an answer to a question then it might be an idea to go to the beginning of the chapter to find out what that question actually was. And then read on to the end to make sure you aren’t taking things completely out of context. Perhaps I’m being generous in assuming you weren’t trying to deliberately mislead people but I don’t like to think the worst of people.

You might want to think on 1 john 4 7-21. You’re so preoccupied with what someone might be doing in the bedroom that you’re ignoring the fact that they may have love in their hearts, love is from God and of God, there’s no verse saying ‘love comes from god… but not if your gender is the same as your partner, that makes it sick and wrong and hateful.’ Who are you to tell anyone their love (as long as it’s consenting and between adults) is wrong when God says otherwise?

@ Liz, actually most of the Bible is written by prophets, messengers of God. Yes, they were men. But these are supposed to be the words of God. Now, the translations that have been made over the centuries, those are purely man’s words.

Not to mention that the bible wasn’t compiled until centuries after Christ lived, at which point the church fathers decided what would make the cut and what wouldn’t. Many documents that were excluded also claimed divine inspiration, how are we so certain that the church fathers happened to pick all of the “true” ones?

I read through all of the comments, though quite a few hit nerves that made me wish I hadn’t read them. I especially find the ‘we all sin’ argument very unsatisfactory, since enough Christians would say that homosexuality isn’t a sin. I grew up a Christian, so I understand the idea that we all sin, and that we are all subject to God’s judgement- and His mercy. (yes, please don’t forget that!) But I really can’t see how this form of love is a sin… I guess the same could be said for a brother and sister having sex, but in all honesty, I am not willing to judge them either. I cannot truly know their hearts..
Furthermore, I’d like to give you all an interesting scenario (100% real, this is my story): I identify myself as pansexual (not basing my love on gender) and have been together with the kindest man I have ever known for the past two years. Thing is, he is a trans-male, meaning he was born a woman. Don’t try telling me he should have stayed a woman, because if you knew him you couldn’t think him being one. But legally, he is male, he is taking hormones, has changed his name and will have operations this summer to remove his female organs. But as far as the church would be concerned, we could get married. But would our sex ever be “moral”, even in marriage?
Don’t worry, we won’t get married and don’t put the church in this situation, since we both believe that as long as we cannot marry whomever we want (aka, if he had remained a woman), we won’t get married.

I wish you both all the best. And if you want to get married, I think you should. While standing in solidarity is admirable, too many people are denied their rights. If you two can get around the discrimination, that’s one less bit of persecution in the world.

I wish I had this list 10, 20 years ago. Some people are just cruel. How does it harm you or society how SOMEONE ELSE decides to live. It is silly, and also not against NT scripture if that matters to you. I believe in being happy and doing no harm. (Even though I’m straight!)

This argument seems to be about what the Bible does or does not say about homosexuality. What if we say, really that doesn’t matter. The Bible says a lot of things about a lot of things we don’t pay any attention to. And that has been so for Jews, Christians, and Muslims since the Bible was written.

What are the big ideas? Love G-D, love yourself and your unique gifts, love each other, do the right thing, live a conscious life.

This is all starting to sound like angels dancing on the head of a pin. That is a sterile, soulless, weak system of living that shames me to claim the name Christian.

Is anyone here familiar with dimethyltryptamine? If not, you should be, because it plays an essential role in our understanding of God and the afterlife.
Dimethyltryptamine, or more commonly referred to as DMT, is a chemical released by the pineal gland in small doses when you sleep, but also in massive doses twice during the human lifetime; Once at birth and once at death.
The affects of DMT on the mind commonly begin with visions of a light at the end of a tunnel or of a systematic fracturing of this reality to make way for another. Someone under it’s influence then breaks through to another plane of existence where they meet inhuman beings of light and color. Those beings show you all the the poor decisions you’ve made and why they were unhealthy. This can be an extremely difficult and terrifying experience for someone who has lived a life mistreating those he or she were commanded to love; to experience the dissection and judgement of every wrong you’ve ever committed would undoubtedly be ‘hell’.

What if the role of Christianity, and every other religion promoting peace, love and kindness for that matter, is to prepare our minds for that experience? The Bible doesn’t teach against sin to give us fuel to fight one another, but rather as a guide with which to look inward. The Bible states over and over again that we are to love and forgive, to show mercy and kindness to everyone… not just to those who deserve it, not just to those who we believe are living lives of righteousness… but to EVERYONE.

It isn’t our place to judge how others should live. The only judgements the Bible permits us are those of our own character. If you live a life of hate and discrimination, it matters not to which religious dogma you prescribe… you will experience the torment of your own hatred, feel the weight of your own judgements in the afterlife.

Jeff, I didn’t say that well. It is supposed to be “pubic” nerve, but several people also thought it was a typo. I meant the nerves in the pubic area, but the wording was obviously confusing. I think the real name for the nerve is “pudental” but I didn’t figure that would get the point across. What I was trying to say is if we focus too much on the physics of the sex act itself (who touches who where) we get tunnel vision and miss the whole question of are we being helpful or hurtful to real lives. Obviously, it was way too obscure of an image. Thanks for seeking clarification.

Leviticus (Veyrikra in Hebrew since it is part of the Hebrew holy books called Torah, Tanach, & Haf-Torah) chapter 18, verse 22 is miserably misinterpreted or rendered.

It should & for clarity must be understood to be a condemnation not of homosexuality as fundies are inclined to say but is a condemnation of male-male RAPE. That’s right it is an injunction against rape of one man on another man:

“No man shall rape another man. This is truly a double bad thing in the eyes of the Lord.”

An accurate & unbiased translation by respected scholars on this matter would make that abundantly clear to all; but who really wants to know the truth of the matter?

A course in biblical exegesis might help but the damage has been done over & over & over.

There are no parties (Democratic or Republican), in God’s Kingdom, and it is not a democracy. It’s His way alone. That said, you can believe what you want to believe while still living on this earth, but the very instant you die, you will find out the truth. That’s why Jesus said “I am the truth, the light, and the way….no one enters into the Kingdom but through me.
And as it pertains to judgement and obeying commandments, Leviticus is OT, that covenant was fulfilled through Jesus, through Him and the Holy Spirit, we are now in a new covenant. We are also allowed to judge, but only fellow believers. It is judging for righteousness, not salvation. This is demonstrated in His teaching about a good tree and a bad and the fruits they produce. If you are to know a tree by its fruit, you must 1st have a standard to determine what is good fruit and what is bad fruit…..Enter the Holy Spirit.

Jim: Thanks for your post. It’s so interesting to me how the “sex” parts of the Bible provoke so much passion. I would love to see the literalists (and the non-literalists for that matter) get so riled up in favor of, “Sell all that you have and give it to the poor.”

1. Jesus’ apostles mentioned marriage to be only for a man and a woman. The Bible is said to be God-breathed; everything in it is important and the Word of God, not just what Jesus said.

2. Agree.

3. Agree. So we should recognize the truth of the Bible.

4. I have the right to marry someone of the opposite gender. There’s a right I have. I agree, it’s not “special rights” for a homosexual to similarly ask for the same rights as me; that is, the right to marry someone of the opposite gender. They can do that any day they like.

5. “Personal” views can be shared by more than one person… Hence the term “fellowship.”

6. Yes, marriage between a man and woman is a right.

7. Not sure what the point of this one is.

8. The Bible mentions homosexuality WAY before Leviticus. All the way back in Genesis. And it is for THAT sin, among several others, that God wiped out two entire cities. I think that makes it pretty clear He doesn’t like homosexuality, not to mention the times it is plainly spelt out later in the Bible.

9. You can prove someone was born “black,” or “white.” Proof supporting the theory that people are “born gay” is yet to be found. Some homosexuals have even come forth and admitted that they are “gay” by their own choosing.

10. The word “judge” can mean several things. The way it is used in the Bible is “to pass legal judgment on; pass sentence on (a person):.” It refers to God’s sovereignty and how He and only He can truly judge a person for their actions, after death. This does not, however, prevent people from having opinions about others’ actions.

4. I have the right to marry someone of the opposite gender. There’s a right I have. I agree, it’s not “special rights” for a homosexual to similarly ask for the same rights as me; that is, the right to marry someone of the opposite gender. They can do that any day they like.

This one just reeks of privilege and smugness, and makes me think less of you than I normally would of an internet stranger. It sounds just like a rich, gluttonous person dismissing the poor, starving people’s hunger as a diet choice.

Sure, homosexual people can marry someone they’re not attracted to. They can lie to themselves and everyone for their whole lives, living miserably and causing their loved ones more misery. There’s nothing about that your god wouldn’t approve of, I’m sure.

You are very fortunate that you fit societal norms. You are very fortunate that your sexual preferences line up with your country’s laws. Dismissing people who do not align so fortunately is callous and nasty.

Im atheist and I appreciate this post indefinitely. It is awful that there are people who are religious who are very liberal in their views, act with real human compassion, but continue to have to put up with the arrogance of religion.

The comments below represent the exact problem with trying to derive morality from a book. Everyone quibbling over translations from the Greek, deciding what Paul meant by what… it doesn’t matter! You know in your heart when you are oppressing people, people who are worthy of no more or less rights and respect than you. Even if you believe the Bible says homosexuality is a sin, and that God hates them for their natural impulses, you still know that these people have names and families, and people that love and respect them. They are people, and your God, your book, your religion are hurting them. “If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.” Just because you believe in a god doesn’t mean you have to worship him or follow his rules. Lop off your god for the good of your fellow man!

The problem is this isn’t god, this is exactly what god didn’t want. All the people clammering for their right to deny gay people the same respect as everyone else are the modern equivilent of the crowd outside the temple that wanted to stone the woman and Jesus was angry at them and lot them to get over themselves.
If you believe in God then you believe he made each and every one of us, that he knew us before we were born, that he knows us now, that he name every little detail of our soul which includes our hearts, we all have value to God and he loves us just the way we are. Funny how some Christians forget that bit when it comes to a sexuality they don’t approve of.

I won’t say that God doesn’t have issues with the way that we conduct ourselves sexually sometimes but I think he’s bothered by promiscuity and adultery and the things we all know are wrong when done by any gender because of all the problems and harm they can cause and is not concerned by two people of the same gender in love with each other. The God I know is not a gay basher and is waching all this bickering with saddness.

I am with you there. I think my point was missed entirely. Should have phrased it better. What I said was IF you believe the bible condemns it, and IF you believe your God hates these people, then rid yourself of him, because he is causing you to hate. If your faith is causing you to be a bad person, then 86 it, because it is not worth it.

I think a lot of people haven’t actually asked God what he thinks but have trawled through the bible to find things to back up what they already thought. If they quieted down their own opinion and truly listened to God then they’d see that what they were doing was causing more harm and pain than any gay couple getting to make their relationship offical ever could and that is not godly. The problem is that while they think god is giving them permission to be like this because ‘the bible says…’ they will never change their minds or even see that they’re hurting people and ultimately themselves. Frankly it doesn’t matter what the bible says when you can go to an all loving God and ask what he thinks. If there is an issue with someone’s sexuality(or any other part of their live) for whatever reason then God will deal with it between him and them, he might ask you to do something to help but it will be on a one to one basis, he would never endorse pointing fingers at a whole secion of society totally ignoring the individuals involved with a blanket response of ‘You’re all wrong.’

@Mark Hurley: The Bible says NOWHERE that God hates anyone… Hate the sin, not the sinner. And shouldn’t God be the forefront of a person’s life, considering He made them and they owe being alive, to Him?

Agreed, totally. What I said was IF you believe the bible condemns it, and IF you believe your God hates these people, then rid yourself of him, because he is causing you to hate. I know my bible, better than the christians who would use it as a tool for hate.

to CHAD ,,If “The Kingdom” is off limits to Adulturers,– DRUNKARDS –, greedy graspers …Why then The United States population is about 90 percent excluded from the pearly gates !! The Other 10 percent is GAY!

Christians are not supposed to force their beliefs upon someone else, if you believe in God, then tjats is good. If you do not believe in God, then that is totally your decision and your decision alone. As far as homosexuality goes, as far as I am concerned, I think it is totally disgusting to see two men or two kiss an have sex, but that is their business not mine and tha is strictly my opinion. It’s your life. Do what you want

Just one question for all those who have used the word “hate.” Why does my belief or anyone else’s for that matter, based on what scripture teaches, that homosexuality is a sin always seem to translate into I must hate homosexuals? I’m actually really sick of that assumption being made about myself or anyone else. I don’t automatically assume because someone disagrees with something I’m doing that they hate me. So why do you all always make that leap?

You’re right, to an extent. We shouldn’t make the leap from intolerance and disgust to hate. The problem is, homosexuality is a natural state of being. You can’t disagree with my being white, or with someone having freckles. It is very hard for some of us to make a differentiation between your “disagreeing” with someone’s homosexuality and your condemnation of it based on scripture and hate. “I don’t hate you, but what you are is a sin, and it makes God angry,” is a very hateful thought process.

Yes and men who rape women are attracted to them too. Is that normal? Yes. Is it right? No. Does it make heterosexuality immoral? Well give me enough time and I’m sure I can find enough in the Bible that supports that contention.

When you tell somebody that they’re going to suffer eternal torment for loving the wrong person, I suspect you dislike that somebody. When you expend actual time and effort going out of your way to make sure that same somebody doesn’t get to access the same benefits of citizenship that you enjoy, I suspect you don’t love them.

Not having special spiritual powers, I can only judge people by their actions. Thus, I think people who make a point of saying that homosexuality is a sin, and who work to make the lives of homosexual less pleasant than they could be hate homosexuals.

Because your belief validates those who hate gays. It means that people think it’s OK to construct a hate campaign on Facebook targeting a 14 year old boy who came out as a gay and send him death threats on his cell. Kids like Kenneth Wieshuhn, to be driven to such dispair that after only a month of being out he commits suicide. But society thinks that’s OK because you and millions of others say that because he ran a pinterest page showing all the things he wants for his perfect day and had a crush on a boy band member he was sinful and ungodly. His mother is burying him today, go and look her in the eye and tell her that what her son felt was a sin, that he was ungodly. You stand by your beliefs but you have no idea of the reality of what that does to other people, what it did to Kenneth and and what it’s done to his family. And then you play the victim because people get angry at the consequences of your beliefs.

Moses wrote Genesis. Therefore, “homosexuality”, or more accurately, ‘same gender attraction’, is older than the Bible. It seems to me that a lot off the Bible isn’t JUST God’s word, but the biased opinion of some of its writers used to condemn the things they think makes them superior to those around them.

For instance, when Peter (I think it was Peter, don’t quote me on it, the author’s name isn’t the point) said that women shouldn’t be allowed to speak in church, I think that was his own personal opinion and not a direct quote from an all-loving creator that is incapable of hate and evil.

I think it is the same when it comes to “condoning” “homosexuality.” It’s not really about whether it’s right or wrong, is it? It’s really about trying to best your fellow man in who can be more “pure” and “God-fearing.” You don’t need God or the Bible to have Morals. Morals are specific to each and every person and no one individual has one single set of Morals or ‘moral code’ that should be the basis on which all other morals are judged. I don’t think we should outlaw same-sex marriage because there’s no reason to. What two men do to themselves is of no consequence to me no more than what lottery numbers they pick are. It doesn’t make my marriage to a woman any less ‘sanctified’ than another woman’s marriage to one. It doesn’t “hurt” my marriage, it doesn’t make me more susceptible to divorce or disease.

One of my best friends is gay and he isn’t any less human than I am in any way whatsoever. And whatever rights I have as a human (especially the rights endowed by “my creator” whether or not his creator is the same) he has as well (notice I didn’t say ‘should have’). Bottom line, being gay and/or participating in the “gay lifestyle” (whatever that entails) doesn’t make ANYONE inferior to me. We are equals. Period. And if my god thinks otherwise, then s/he’s plain wrong.

God made Adam, God made Eve, Adam, Eve, man, woman. That’s the way He intended it to be. How else would man procreate? Throughout the Bible, Old and New, God, (Jesus), has spoken on morality, right and wrong. When the diciples ate with unwashed hands, Jesus said, “It is not what goes into a man that makes him unclean, but what comes out of him”. That is, what comes out of a mans heart. Sexual perversion is a sin and God hates sin, He loves the person, but God hates the sin. Read Peter, James, and study, God will show you the answers. These statements don’t explain truth, just an opinion.

If you accept creationism (I don’t), then god also made hermaphrodites, some of which have both male and female sexual organs, and some which change gender at some point in their lives. Even in humans, the number of people born with ambiguous gender is surprisingly high.

When I was in seminary I spent a summer as a hospital chaplain in Oklahoma City. While there, I tripped across a giant book on surgical procedures for infants born between the genders. I was completely stunned. It was the first blow to my homophobic upbringing. I realized that unless I was willing to lie about biology, I was going to have to change my overly simplistic binary worldview. I realized I have no idea what is happening inside another person.

Here is how I see it: Reading the Bible and understanding it as best as I can (including looking at other’s opinions of the various translations, since I am not a Greek scholar), my conclusion is that homosexual behavior is sinful.

1) When Jesus said, “Judge not, etc”, that does not mean that we as Christians should never attempt to make judgements about what type of behaviors are sinful…..of course we should. What it means is that we should not then assume ourselves to be better that the person committing that sin. I am not guilty of casting judgement simply because I determine that a certain behavior is sinful.

2) The above stated fact is then trumped by the command to love others. If I am unloving or unkind toward homosexuals I am being sinful. If I don’t welcome them into my home or into my church I am being sinful. If I persecute them because of their personal struggle with the sin of homosexual behavior I am being sinful.

3) I am a sinner. I struggle repeatedly with the same sins and have made little progress over my lifetime. I often try to justify my sinful behavior and make our that it is not really sinful behavior, either to try to make myself feel better about it, or to “win the argument”, so to speak. However, at some later point, when I am in my right mind, I am forced to admit that the behavior was, in fact, sinful, and that I am guilty. I repent. I receive grace. And then, sooner or later, I repeat.

4) I sometimes struggle with acting out of anger towards by wife or children, etc. In the moment, my anger feels so natural and “right”, that it seems that I could act no other way….that my response is somehow “how I was created”. It is only later that I acknowledge that I, in fact, can control my angry behavior, and regardless of how it feels in the moment, it is in fact sinful behavior.

5) I think most Christians who view homosexual behavior as sinful are not actually hateful or “judgemental” toward homosexuals. We just can’t with integrity and honesty label something as “not sinful” that we truly believe is.

6) If you are reading this and not a Christian, then, of course, none of this applies to you. I am speaking to Christians who are at least, as best as they can, making an attempt to read, understand, and follow the Bible.

I love you all as brothers and sisters in Christ. I welcome any comments

To judge in this passage could also mean to condemn. Jesus is saying don’t condemn. Christians should keep fellow Christians accountable. Non Christians are not expected to live at the same standards as Christians.

Same-sex marriage is hardly a “special right” if it’s available to anyone and everyone. The fact that 90% or whatever percent it is of the population happens to prefer mixed-sex marriage is irrelevant. Where same-sex marriage is legal, any member of the National Organization for Marriage has the same right to marry someone of their same sex as anybody else. I don’t see anything special about that.

Now, if you had to prove you were gay to be allowed to have a same-sex marriage, it might be a “special right.” But you don’t.

I wish religious people weren’t so pathetic that they need to cling to imaginary figures described in a book written by someone who may or may not have been imagining shit, batshit crazy, or writing a fictitious book only to have ignorant people like you all perceive it as fact.

Religion is essentially made up of two things.

1. A formidable ploy by “church” to control weak minded people, maintain stature in society and absorb wealth.
2. As well, it’s a crutch for weak minded people to bind themselves to when they can’t accept their life as their own. They need to relate things they hope/expect/want/desire/wish for/can’t understand to some celestial super-being.

If people would live for themselves, love their neighbor, family, friends, respect differences, and teach non-contradictory non-hypocritical ethics to their children, we wouldn’t have to deal with arguments like this, be living in a recession, have had any period like the dark ages, and probably living much much happier lives.

Religion was the driving force behind countless horrors of human past. The only good thing religion has done is give the senseless and weak minded some imaginary person to blame for their successes and failures.

You might want to have another look a history if you genuinely believe that last statement, plenty of people have done world changing and good things because of their faith and because God opened their hearts to love their fellow humans.

FYI Atheism isn’t the intelligent position, it’s just another opinion. Plenty of very intelligent people belive in more than the material, scientists included. Einstein believed there was a creator force of a divine natural, was he senseless and weak? Here’s a quote of his for you to ponder:

Einstein rightly believed that religion was childish, and he certainly did not believe in a creator. Another of his famous lines, “God does not play at dice,” does not refer to any kind of creator force or heavenly overseer, but was referring actually to the physical laws of the universe.

Just as Hitler was not an atheist, Einstein was not a theist. The research must be done before the argument can be made.

Einstein was not an atheist and objected to being called so, he didn’t like organised religion or thart concept of God, I never said he was a christian, I said he believed there was something behind creation, he was into intelligent design but never believed any dogma. You can very easily be spiritual without being religious just like you can be religious without being spiritual. It’s better to say he was agnostic than anything but hey, why do we have to label everything?

Refute to points 1 and 8: “If Jesus did not mention a subject, it cannot be essential to his teachings.” and “To condemn homosexuality, you must use parts of the Bible you don’t yourself obey. Anyone who obeyed every part of Leviticus would rightly be put in prison.”

False. Jesus spoke clearly about immorality and wickedness. He said in Mark 7:20-23, ““What comes out of a person is what defiles them. For it is from within, out of a person’s heart, that evil thoughts come—sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. All these evils come from inside and defile a person.”

The Greek word translated as sexual immorality is porneia and the definition is as follows:

Furthermore, Jesus affirms that Genesis IS the source of the definition of human sexuality and marriage. In Matt. 19:4-6 he says, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.”

the refutation of homosexuality lies not in the Old Testament law, although that speaks of God’s disdain of it. The source of it lies in Genesis and the creation. God created male and female to be together. That is His intentions for human sexuality.

Two men and two women cannot become one flesh. It is not ontologically possible for this to happen. marriage is a sacrament gifted to us by God at creation. To become one flesh is beyond impossible for two men and two women. They can never become one both physically and spiritually for there is no sacrament there.

Refute of point 2, “You are not being persecuted when prevented from persecuting others.”

No one is wanting to persecute anyone. This is a misunderstanding of the Christian belief.

Granted, yes, there are some Christians who treat homosexual persons with disdain this is both wrong, evil, and immoral. and it something we should repent from.

however this goes both ways. the Gay Agenda is both rude and aggressive. They are NOT only wanting us to recognize “gay marriage” from a social aspect, but they have FORCED it upon the Church.

It is not just a social issue for them. They want us to make unbiblical concessions and baptize their as something good. and we cannot and will not do that.

so this supposed persecution can go both ways. and the Church needs to address ALL sins. Dr. Ben Witherington says we nned to be equal opportunity critiquers of ALL human sin including our own.

he also says that ALL are welcome to come to the Church as they are, ourselves included, however, we are not welcome to stay as we are.

So the homosexual community’s demands to be embraced as a normal lifestyle within the Church is not acceptable.

again, this goes both ways. if you want civil unions in society that is fine, however, do not call it marriage. marriage is not a civil matter as we think. it truly is from God. i’m fine with civil unions.

however, the homosexual community does not just stop there. they want the Church, and are demanding, that we embrace their lifestyle as normal and that their inclinations are biblical and okay.

Again, we cannot do this. they are wanting to be part of the Church and continue to live in a state of perpetual sin. none of us are allowed or permitted to do this.

Refute to point 10, “When Jesus forbade judging, that included you.”

jesus didn’t forbid judging. he forbid hypocritical judging. Paul writes that we are not to judge those outside the judge. that is true. and we shouldn’t. that’s why i’m okay with civil unions.

however, he does say in I Cor. 5 that we are to judge those within. Sexual immorality is not permissable in the Church. But many in the homosexual community accuse of us of being bigots and hate-mongers for our stance on this issue that we will not make concessions for.

and this person is only looking to the Gospels for ethical stances and teachings. that is both biblically dishonest and shameful. Here are a ton of Scriptures addressing this issue:

and please give this 7 min video a watch. Dr. Witherington’s response is so loving, kind, and yet still Biblically grounded. it is fair and right. He addresses perfectly the issues found in this guy’s blog and explains perfectly the Christian stance on homosexuality:

If your definition of sexual immorality that includes homosexuality in a list with adultery, fornication, and sex with a divorced man or woman, that’s excellent. You seem to be the type involved in ministry. My suggestion is to go to your congregation and identify every person who had sexual relations before marriage, with someone other than their marriage partner, or with someone who used to be married to someone else. About 80% of teens have sex before graduating high school, aka, it’s safe to say at least 80% of people have sex before marriage. Of the remaining 20%, what percent do you think have had an affair outside married? 5%? Sure. And how many people are re-married? 10%?. So if you eliminate people from your congregation based on the sexual sins you listed, 80% will be out for premarital sex, 5% for affairs, and 10% for re-marriage after divorce. The remaining 5% sure would cut down on your tithes. The point of all of this – if you are going to condemn people who are homosexual and say that is not permissible in the Church, then neither are any of the the other things. I do not know of a church that does not allow people who have had premarital sex, extramarital sex, or divorced sex. But I know of plenty who are not welcoming to people who have sex with someone they love of the same sex. If you are going to say “we do not welcome sexual immorality of any kind”, great, that’s your stance. But if your message to the world is “we welcome many types of sexual immorality but definitely not homosexuality” then your message is your own. It is not of the Bible and it is not from God. If I were you, any of you, I would be REALLY nervous about what God will say when you die when he sees how much of His Word you have distorted and turned into your own agenda just to communicate hate when His message is LOVE. (P.S. “You” in my post is plural.)

Thank you Mike. What a beautiful spirit you have. Open minded exporation is all anyone can ask. And I actually prefer hard questions so don’t pull your punches. Obviously insults aren’t helpful, but I can see that would never occur to you.

My own position is not that the Bible never condemned homosexuality, but that the New Covenant does not condemn it.
There are two background factors I believe are important. The original sexual ethic was based on making as many babies as possible. Israel was a nation devastated by war and so polygamy was practiced and any form of none reproductive sex was prohibited. Brother were supposed to take in and impregnate the widows of their slain brothers. Marriages were arranged and brides were often very young.

There was also a kind of cultic law called the Levitical Code that said certain foods made one unclean. Women in their periods, men with crushed testicles, and men who had laid with men all of which were an abomination.
The New Covenant asked people to have one partner. Elders in the church were asked to have one partner, which seems to imply that the early church did not break up polygamous couples but eliminated the practice over time.
More importantly the ceremonial or cleanliness codes were overturned. You find this in Peter’s vision in Acts, in the book of Hebrew’s, in the early church insistence that God is not a respecter of persons, and in Paul’s insistence that in Christ there is neither male nor female, Jew nor Greek, Slave nor free.

So the Jewish culture was homophobic, but it was also porkophobic and shrimpophobic. What Paul argued in Romans and Galatians was that the law can only tell us what we’re doing wrong but that only grace will tell us how we can do right. Paul’s rejection of circumcision is not an individual quirky rule, but a rejection of ethics based on conditions of the flesh.

Some people try to say that the comment that David loved Jonathon like a woman implies a same sex relationship, but I think that’s reaching. My point is that the new covenant is a calling to build a temple to God with all the stones the builders rejected. Jesus’ healings were often of the unclean. When Peter baptizes the eunuch is respecting someone who would be called unclean by Levitical standards. Since they didn’t have a word for “homosexual” we are guessing what was permitted and disallowed. Why not show the same grace to others that we will need for ourselves?

I love your explanation here. I have friends who are GBLTand I treat them like I want to be treated. A pojnt could also be raised about the way “Christians” treat other faiths.I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, commonly referred to as Mormons. Our stance on homosexuality is the same as it is for anyone who commits premarital sex or adultry. As long as you obey the commandments of treatiung your self as a temple of God as set forth by God, then you are able to enjoy full membership.

As for the treatment of GLBT people, anyone who uses sexual orientation as a sole criteria for friendship and companionship or as a way to exert power over someone because of difference is not very Christlike at all and I would say does not have the spirit. As a friend of mine and I discussed, Churches (especially mine) may never allow for gay marriage. As my friend said, “I love the Lord too much than to violate his commandments and as a gay human being and church member, I know the Lord will be pleased by me doing what he says, and not giving in to my sexual urges, and even though that may mean I will not marry, this is my cross to bare.”

I would take a bullet for my friend and I love him dearly. As a child of God, I cannot allow my friend to give up. Yes, it may feel natural to have these urges, but he and I believe he will be greatly blessed for being strong, keeping his convictions, and not accepting the bigotry of anyone.

As far as King David loving Jonathon in a homosexual way, I agree that is reaching. If you read the story of David carefully we learn that the bond between David and Jonathon was one of complete friendship, adoration and committment in keeping a coventant they formed earlier in life as Saul sought to take David’s life. Many times, we see Jonathon go out of his way to protect David and vice versa. I believe the story of David should strengthen the GBLT population. This life isn’t easy and we are all tried to see if we follow Christ or will not. So are the GBLT folks gonna let the natural man rule them or are they going to let the spirit of the Holy Ghost guide them?

Bryan, your story of your friend is heart-rending. There are a lot of people in the world who are asexual, and don’t care for sex at all, and are content to live without it. I hope that’s the case for your friend. Otherwise, your church and his faith are dooming him to spend his entire (potentially short) life not experiencing the simple pleasure of physical intimacy with somebody he loves. I hope he, or even both of you, find a willing, out, gay person to talk to and find another path to follow, to be true to himself and not feel rejected by his faith. Here’s a resource for you: http://affirmation.org/

Kim, it’s about TURNING from sin. This isn’t about once you’ve sinned you’re forever excluded. That’s the entire difference between homosexual sin/lifestyle and a truly repentant lifestyle. Active, practicing homosexuals demand that their sin not be recognized and that they be afforded the ability to not repent. They have attempted to change biblical understanding and language to fit their perverse lifestyle. Of course we all sin! We aren’t excluded by our sin. We ARE excluded by our REFUSAL to repent and turn from our sin. Therein lies the HUGE difference. If your church had an elder who REFUSED to stop committing adultery, and claimed to have every right to do it because “it doesn’t hurt anyone and the woman(en) with which he was having sex are consenting adults”, we would also be required to exclude him from the fellowship. It’s about the heart, not the outside actions. It’s about the refusal to recognize sin, refusal to accept God’s word as trustworthy, and also the demand that it not only NOT be recognized as sin, but that it be CELEBRATED as normal.

Two men and two women cannot become one flesh. It is not ontologically possible for this to happen. marriage is a sacrament gifted to us by God at creation. To become one flesh is beyond impossible for two men and two women. They can never become one both physically and spiritually for there is no sacrament there.

Okay, “ontologically possible” is a new one for me, and I had to do some googling. As nearly as I can figure out, this whole argument boils down to the fact that homosexuals can’t reproduce together (since obviously heterosexuals do not actually become a single new entity by having sex, so you can’t possibly mean that. They can create a single new entity, but they don’t BECOME one. Eventually, the penis will leave the vagina, and they will get out of bed, shower, and get dressed).

And, as others have mentioned, there don’t seem to be any Abrahamic religions out there who forbid the marriage of infertile heterosexual couples. Therefore, your argument is invalid.

Also, given that a great many pre-christian and non-christian societies in the world have a word for “marriage” that means a legal relationship with certain economic aspects, I really don’t think that you can legitimately claim that it’s unique to the bible, and that your particular church has ownership of the term.

Sexual immorality is if I rape your wife, not if I make consensual law-abiding love with another adult male. Why? Because it’s not against my morals. It may be sexual immorality for YOU, but what you find to be against your morals another person might not find to be against his or hers at all.

I always like to ask of my straight friends.. “When did you decide to be straight?” It is very interesting to see how people think about the question when it is posed, and then hear that they believe it isn’t a fair question. I was asked by a close relative of mine “Why have you chosen to be gay?” My response is that I have chosen to be true to myself and honest with those whom I love and respect.. regardless of how that honesty has impacted my relationships. If I could choose not to be gay… oh how much easier life would be….

Jesus didn’t have to teach on it because he was ministering in a culture already condemning homosexuality. Most of what Jesus says is either about money, or legalism. That would be why he never mentions rape either. He teaches on what he needs to to prepare for the kingdom of God.

This is a great listing! Our state of NC is voting on a Constitutional Amendment to prohibit gay marriage or other rights that should be afforded gay couples. If you’re in NC vote NO on Amendment One on May 8, or earlier if you early-vote.

This is a very well-written article, Jim. Thank you for your thoughtful insight into this subject that has become a dividing point to the Church. To be perfectly honest, when I first read the 10 points (and some of the comments below), I resorted to the homophobia that most modern day Christians embody. Then I began to put away my preconceptions of what I thought the Bible said about homosexuality and honestly tried to listen to what people (most likely much more educated and researched in this topic than me) were saying. In doing so, I have learned I have a lot of research to do about this topic and how it relates in the Bible before I give any advice as one who knows what he is talking about. I am not saying that I agree with everything that has been said about homosexuality and I’m not saying I will agree with the pro-homosexual view, but I will strive to be as objective as possible in my study of this topic.
However, I do have a question, and I would like to hear some input on this. This might come across with a negative tone, but please be assured my intentions are one of just pure curiosity. If the Bible never expresses the idea that homosexuality is a sin, why are there no examples of pure, godly homosexual relationships in the Bible? Why are all of the relationships that are seen as pure between a man and a woman? Again, I’m not attacking, just asking a question. Thank you again for raising awareness and conversation about this topic Jim (and all of the other commentors).

I found your question intriguing and did a little googling (Google knows ALL), and the answer seems to come back to the ambiguity of the terms used in the original Greek, and then translated. There seem to be a few instances of potentially gay couples in the old testament, and possibly an account of Jesus healing a man’s gay lover in the new testament. But again, the words in the original language don’t necessarily relate directly to what we call “homosexual” today, so the meaning can be spun in a few directions, depending on the bias of the translator(s).

1. Jesus is fully God. He was in on the writing of the entire bible, thus He mentioned everything contained therein.
2. Warning someone of their impending destruction through love and concern is not persecution but our Christian duty, even if unpopular. We are appalled as we should be and denounce hatred on either side.
3. The bible is the ultimate truth regardless of who, what, when, where or how.
4. Special rights are any rights that are against nature and nature’s God.
5. The only personal view that matters is God’s. We should agree on that and seek it openly and hionestly. If I err, correct me, but in love through God’s word.
6. Marriage is a religous institution between one man and one woman designed and sanctioned by God. Jesus “mentioned” this in the new testamment.
7. Refer to # 10
8. The bible condemns homosexual relations in several passages in both the old and new testaments along with other sins. It also makes it clear that redemption is equally available to all if we turn from, that sin and surrender our lives to Christ. He overcame the power of sin over our flesh through His sacrifice.
9. God’s definition of right has never bowed mto the whims or wishes of man. It is offensive to insinuate that His word is racist in any way except to say that it condemns racism. The true church has always known this.
10. Refer to # 7
Thanks

First and foremost, I think it is important to say that I was raised Catholic/Christian and am a gay man. Thank you Jim for not only your message, but mainly for your tireless fight in the responses.

Sadly, I stopped attending church services around the age of 22 as I felt no longer welcomed by the Catholic community. I didn’t feel judged by some of the members, but felt like they were promoting this idea that even though we won’t judge you, God will and it will be bad. I believe I am a good person fundamentally. I volunteer in my neighborhood, I work 40 hours a week, I kiss my Mom hello everytime I see her, I hold open the door for the next person, and I don’t think that God or any other idety that may be our maker will punish me when I am done with this life for just being me. Because in the end, I believe that I was born gay and if all the almight creator thought I should be gay, then he must think it is okay. I miss the people and the traditions that I grew up with, but I can’t be a part of a community that won’t accept me fully as a member.

And finally, I can’t wait for the day when people stop using the Bible as a weapon. It’s supposed to be a tool to help preach Jesus’ main messages of love, peace and forgiveness.

I’m impressed with the patience some of the gay-marriage supporters have with the overly-religious folks. I don’t think I would be so patient.

I’m a heterosexual atheist. And the idea that any part of the bible be used as the basis for an argument for what should happen in our legal system is horrifying to me. I don’t even believe there is any kind of god (lowercase on purpose). Why would I want our rights and freedoms to be controlled by books, stories, letters, or transcriptions written by people who had no means of knowing fact from fiction. The idea that we give the Bible so much trust is frightening to me. It’s a book that was probably compiled to help keep control over people… to make them behave as the rulers of the time wanted them to.

I have no stake in gay marriage being legal except that if religious organizations win, I don’t know what other freedoms might be attacked. I dislike the effect religion has on society.

1st off its not judging. It’s calling it as you see it. The BIBLE says you can tell a tree by the fruit that it bears. 2nd when Jesus came he told us we were no longer under the old laws “levitical laws”…we are to follow the new testament. In the new testament why don’t yall go read Romans 1:27-28. Quit manipulating the bible and just accept that Jesus doesn’t allow it!! My goodness!!!!!

But, see, this is what Jim is accusing anti-homosexual people of doing. Manipulating the bible to their own preconceived prejudices. It is judging, because “as you see it” should include all of the facts, including the scientific fact that homosexuality is a natural, factory-installed trait. If you believe that God created us all, then you must believe he condones homosexuality, because they are born that way. There are actually schools of thought that say Jesus himself was gay. Not saying it is true, and there are even creditable schools that say he didn’t exist. Again, not saying it is true, but literalist interpretation usually leads to someone getting hurt. Also, whether or not Jesus condones it, is that a reason to make rules and laws about it that don’t even affect you? This is the main crux here, because that is what judgment is. A church or a government makes a moral decision, and imposes it on others.

Jim, Your unfortunate title throws all different Christian traditions into one pot without recognizing that there are some denominations have been at the forefront of LGBT rights. For instance, the United Church of Christ (the denomination in which I am a pastor) was the first denomination to ordination an openly gay man — way back in 1972 — and in the ensuing decades has been open and affirming to LGBT persons. In 2005, the UCC came out in favor of marriage equality — the first religious body to take such a stand. Please don’t throw all Christian traditions into the one “church” pot — it completely overlooks the passionate and prophetic work some parts of Christendom have been undertaking for decades in the name of LGBT rights.

Jean, I realize that. I work with many of those prophetic people. I’m grateful for the occassional oasis, but the church as a whole has either been oppressive or timid on this issue. I agree there are good congregations on the issue, mine is one of them, but as long as GLBT lives are in danger, I am less concerned with making small parts of the church look good, than I am in trying to get the larger church to repent of their violence. The dead weight of the church as a whole is currently on the side of oppression and even we justice churches are splattered with the blood.

So you say that you’re a Christian pastor. Well let me ask you this, do you believe that Jesus is the way the truth and the life and that none shall go to the father but through him? Do you believe that those who don’t accept him into their hearts are going to hell?

I agree- that God and Christ, who are the same are bigger than all of us, they are the fathers of our universe. But I don’t understand where the legitimacy of your beliefs come from. It sounds to me from your above comment as well as others in this post and in your blog, that you don’t believe in the whole of scripture and it being the literal word of God. If you did, I don’t see how you can cast out so much of what is said, not just of this one topic, but the even bigger topic which is Christ’s message of salvation. I could list scripture after scripture regarding Jesus’s being the path to salvation, but if you don’t believe in the bible, what good would that do? I would just be a “Bible Bully” in your words. At this point, I suppose all I can do at this point is pray that the holy spirit would show you faith in God’s word.

My understanding is the accepting Jesus as your saviour and accepting the bible as the inerrant word of god are two ENTIRELY different propositions. A huge number of devout christians find the “inerrant bible” philosophy problematical at best.

Some folks here think the whole Bible is God’s Holy Word, word for word . This view has been supported here by a part of the Bible that says Scripture is God’s word. So when the Bible says the Bible is God’s Word it must be so, because the Bible is God’s Word. This circular reasoning has also been used to say the Bible is the word of Christ. Part of the Bible says that Christ is God (John’s Gospel maybe), so the parts of the Bible where levitical priests and paul reject same-sex behavior are God’s word. Since God and Christ are the same, it’s Christ’s word too, even if the Bible identifies Paul or the Levites or Moses as authors. The human voices of the bible are just reciiting divine dictation, which is jesus, a la the doctrine of the trinity.
There are some others here defending gay rights who think that these are the views of the christian religion, which they think has this God of judgment and exclusion for sins as part of an authoritarian program of social control.
This can only be a result of the failure of good christians like jim here to make it clear to the world that biblical fundamentalism and exclusive dogmatism are not the defining voice of Christians today. By seizing the stage with moralistic crusades against gays and women the Christian faith has been popularly characterized as something that it is not: narrow, exclusive, punitive, negative, ignorant, authoritarian and ungenerous. Kevin, you are right to wonder why progressive Christians are so sedate around the extreme dogmatism of right-wing Christian positions.

@ Mark H.,
You missed the mark (no pun intended). God and His Word don’t teach to hate the people, it is the sin that is to be hated. The act of continuing in sin brings about the consequence of His wrath.
And the word sin is from Origin of HAMARTIA

It is interesting to note that in our part of the U.S. liberal churches in support of homosexuality are struggling to keep their membership numbers up. In the end we all have to answer to God our maker with a clear conscience. The persecution of Christians for holding onto their beliefs and not agreeing with liberal secular and politial views is nothing new. Homosexuals want the church to accept their lifestyle in order to alleviate the burden of guilt they carry deep within themselves. If God did not intend for marriage to be between a man and a woman he would have created us all gender neutral.

Homosexuals want the church to accept their lifestyle in order to alleviate the burden of guilt they carry deep within themselves. If God did not intend for marriage to be between a man and a woman he would have created us all gender neutral.

1. Homosexuals want legal rights that some churches are lobbying the government to deny them. Most don’t really care whether your church accepts them, they just want your church to stop being politically active against them. And if you could find it in your heart to stop verbally and physically bashing them, that would be nice too.

2. You know, there are gender neutral people in the world. Who are allowed to be married if they want to be.

3. “Marriage” is not simply a religious term, it’s a legal relationship that exists in many, many, many non-christian, non-jewish and non-muslim societies. You can’t take exclusive ownership of a word and legal status that is not unique to you.

I have been a christian since age 14… I am now 48 … It has only been in the last two years that i have been studying the word and doing my best to live according to the bible …. God’s word… Several of my closest friends are gay… All of them hate that about themselves because they believe innately it is wrong… Something from within … They cant describe it… They are chosing to move into their homosexuality as there lifestyle…. I have read thru this blog … And listen to youselves all of u are standing in judgement to some degree… We are human …. Here is what i see, i regards to the bible and homosexuality … If the bible uses the word homosexuality … Why is everyone trying to change its meaning … When everyone hears that word we all know the meaning.. It is funny how people will change the meaning of words to fit their situation or belief to make themselves feel better … We are all guilty of it!!!! I say let god be the judge … Live your life according to the influences you chose!!! As a christisn i chose to remain in friendship with my gay friends i spend time with them and so much with them … I will never judge them … What i dont do anymore since i have been a practicing christian is participate in events that I feel are harmful to me… Such as gay rallies or gay bars … Well i dont even go to straight bars because i chose to keep away from scenarios that might influence me a way from what i believe … That is not judgement … That is boundaries that i have set up for myself …. To keep me from my weaknesses …. Period … End of conversation!!! I cant quote scripture dont know it well enough yet so dont be throwing it at me .. K…

Jennifer, I don’t have a problem with what you are saying. My focus is on giving GLBT people the respect and rights they need to live their own lives fully. I personally wouldn’t want a friend who looked down on me the way you look down at your gay friends, but that is between you and them. Thanks for writing. Jim

I like the list. A lot. But truth be told, there is a fundamental flaw in it. In #1 the concern is what Jesus taught. But from very early on, the dominant position in Christianity has been and continues to be NOT what Jesus taught BUT what is taught about Jesus. Christianity never has been the religion that Jesus held, practiced, and taught. That was Judaism, well within the range of diversity known in first-century Judaism. No, Christianity has been something very different: a set of beliefs and practices based on fast emerging doctrines about the man Jesus interpreted as having been incarnated divinity – which is outside the stream of Judaism. Indeed, it is closer to a Hindu avatar understanding than it is to anything Jewish. Christianity is not and never has been, in its dominant/ definitive/ normative positions, a religion that the historic Jesus could have accepted as valid.

Gallup Polls surveyed people from over 150 countries, asking the question, “Is religion an important part of your life?”
Estonia had the smallest percent of people replying “Yes,” with a mere 16%. Other surveys have shown that Estonia is a real competitor for the title of “Most atheist/agnostic/irrelgious Nation.”
MEANWHILE, other surveys have shown that 80% of Estonians are OPPOSED to legalizing same-sex marriage, or even civil unions. 60% say that gay couples should not be able to adopt.
Interesting…

Actually jesus never said anything about any subject. There has not been one single thing ever found that was written by this so called man. Everything was written years after his so called death by others. If this man was so important and what he supposedly said was so important, he would have written it down himself.

He was too busy healing the sick and preaching love. Also in a society where most of the people couldn’t actually read what would the point be of writing something down? He travelled around and spoke to them in person. BTW if you aren’t going to accept anything that wasn’t written down by the person in question then there’s a hell of a lot of things that you must think aren’t true.

Talking about the Levitical law in context of today is foolish. Read the Bible in the context of the time and people it was written to. With Jesus came the New Covenant. Your 8th point is beyond me. Maybe I’m just the scum of the earth because I’m not nearly as intelligent and brilliant as you appear to be, but where does 1 Corinthians 6:9 fit into what you’re saying? Homosexuality isn’t something encouraged by the Bible. And your 10th point could be twisted around into so many different ways. You making that point is a judgment that other people are being judgmental toward people that you feel are being judged too much. Judge, judge, judge… blah blah blah, Jim. You can word things however you want, but telling other people to stop judging is a judgment within itself, right?

Seth, It sounds like you are plenty smart. I’m not bringing up Greek and Hebrew to silence people, just to get them to realize the book wasn’t written in English. There is no word for “homosexual” in the biblical language, so any word translated as “homosexual” could also be translated as something else. For example, one of the words translated as “homosexual” is translated elsewhere as “soft.” Would that be permited as evidence in a court of law? Shouldn’t we give people the benefit of the doubt if the word is unclear?

Please do a word study on the word in Corinthians and ask if that would be be strong enough evidence to use against you by someone who disagreed with you. Let me know what you think. I have a giant Greek dictionary in multiple volumes that takes up a whole shelf and it doesn’t even try to define the word.

As far as your point about judgment, I think it depends on how we define the term. If it just means “having an opinion” you would be correct. One opinion would be the same as another, and I would be engaging in circular reasoning to ask people not to judge. But my concern is with people who use the Bible to bully others and interfere in their lives. That’s what I’m calling “judging.” In my opinion stopping a bully isn’t doing the same thing as what the bully is doing. Again, I would be interested to see what you think.

So totally love this, Jim. Really. And if I may make a few comments in kind….

First of all, for everyone who is denouncing religion in their comments, take a step back and realize that you, too, are being judgmental, hateful, and intolerant. By sinking to the same level as those you are up against, allegedly, you’re essentially just becoming one of them. Instead of attacking religion or those who choose to believe in it, study it, learn it, know it. After all, it’s better to know thine enemy than to look like the exact same kind of bigot you’re calling them. As an atheist, I know more about Christianity than most Christians, and can correct their misquotes in mid-debate.

Also, to Jim– You seem to have left out the biggest argument that I always like to point out when debating the subject of gay marriage– or as I like to call it, “marriage”– with Christians who oppose it for religious reasons. I implore them to think very hard about their Bible and about Jesus and the people with whom he associated. Prostitutes, tax collectors, thieves, lepers… Essentially, the cast-outs of society. Now, given today’s social and political climate surrounding such hot-button topics as same-sex marriage and benefits, if Jesus were on the earth today, don’t you think he’d be hanging out with some gays? I mean, let’s face it: Illegal immigrants, gays, and supporters of the Obama administration would be his target demographic. And the Bible tells Christians to be more like Jesus. So it seems to me that they should either find some hookers with leprosy, or hang out with more gays and figure out that they’re *really* not a threat to the sanctity of marriage, the future of our country, the safety of our youth, or any of the other rubbish they seem to think. Either that, or they can get leprosy from the hookers. Either way, it’s a win-win.

Thirdly, the church– all forms of it, in all religions in this country– is under the belief that this nation was founded on Christian ideals. They all believe that our laws, government, and all things related to them are fundamentally built upon a foundation of the Bible. Somehow, this entire group of people (a few BILLION of them, or at least a few hundred MILLION) has completely forgotten that the United States of America was formed when immigrants came here from Britain, unhappy with the lack of freedom to choose their OWN BELIEFS, separate from those FORCED UPON THEM by the British government. That is, after all, why that whole Revolutionary War thing happened, anyway.

There is a danger in your second argument, that you will be heard as putting gays and lesbians in the same catagory as “sinners.” I know that’s not what you mean, but it is important to be clear that we aren’t saying people should be nice to gays and lesbian because Jesus was nice to sinners. We are not saying to love the sinner hate the sin. We’re saying (or at least I am) that the condemnation of “a man lying with a man” was an infraction of the cleanliness or Levitical Code, not an infraction of ethics. The entire cleanliness code was overturned for Christians at the same time circumcision and the food laws went the window.

That’s what Paul is trying to say in Romans, that if you call down part of the law on someone else, you are obligated to obey the entire law yourself. He said that no one could be made righteous by obedience to the law. So in the new covenant we are measured by the yardstick we use on others. If we use judge others by the law, we will be measured not just by the parts we pick out for others, but by the whole law. If we offer grace to others, that’s what we receive.

I realize you probably know this, just making sure for those listening in.

Yes, I of course mean that as using “their” so-called logic as an argument against their own statements. Not that I believe that there is anything at all wrong or sinful about homosexuality.

It’s also interesting that you mention Paul, because his condemnation of homosexuality in Romans, chapter 1, is a cornerstone of the Christian argument for the condemnation of homosexuality. But I digress!

I also think that we do need to remember that judgments are a part of everyday life. Making judgments, speaking out about them, acting upon them… That’s about 90% of what living is. It’s how government officials get elected. It’s how we choose our own opinions about everything from politics to religion to which toilet paper to buy. It’s how we decide what company to keep. The act of making and declaring an opinion, or “judgment,” is not inherently a terrible thing. It only becomes so when the impetus behind it is malice, oppression, greed, or any other desire to harm another person.

Hi Julie, I like your attitude and I agree with what you say about Jesus.

On that third point though, they left because they were much more hardline than the establishment was comfortable with, they wanted the freedom to persecute and harass as they saw fit, they didn’t leave for the noble ideal of religous freedom, they left to set themselves up as the religous authority. Look at the way they treated the Quakers just for disagreeing on dogma and religious practise. It makes a lot of sense that people are behaving the way they are when you know that.

Jim,
I am not sure how much you view the scriptures as authoritative. if you view them as authortative perhaps we have some common ground. However if you don’t then perhaps at the end of the day i can convince you simply says, “Yes the bible clearly views homosexuality as a sin, but I dont agree with the bible.” That seems to me to be the logical as well as most honest answer.
Now with regard to you point about 1 Corinthians 6:9 the term arsenokoite refers to a person who has sex with a person of his own sex ( if you want a reference to a lexicon you can look that up in BDAG the most authoritative lexicon on early christians literature). Also it means the same thing in Liddell-Scott lexicon (the most authoritative lexicon of classical greek). So lets not be so involved with our ideology over sexual ethics, whatever that may be, and totally missread scripture.
Jesus did condemn porneia (sexual immorality) in Matt 15:19. Now while it is obvious this doesnt particularize homosexuality, the point that I would like to make is that Jesus did have a well defined sexual ethic. Otherwise he wouldnt have grouped porneia in a list of sins. BDAG defines porneia as an all inclusive term for “unsactioned sexual intercourse.” What this means is that your number 7 is wide of the mark. I dont think that you want to say Jesus is lost! This brings me to another point. Notice how Jesus doesnt define or categorize porneia which means that he assumes a cultural context. In other words Jesus never challenges how the 1st century culture defines porneia. 1st century palestine clearly viewed homosexual actions as falling within the category of porneia. Therefore your 1st point has failed. Let me address your 8th point. This seems to many to be a strong arguement. Obviously Christians dont follow Leviticus the way the hebrew Yahwist did in the era before Christ. Neither should we. Paul makes this point clear enough in Galatians. However A.) The old testament is key to the metanarrative of scripture as a whole B.) The old testament provides the ethical and theological background for the New Testament such that to not know the Old testament is to not know the New testament and C.) We (those who see Homosexuality as a sin) don’t need old testamemt texts to argue that homosexuality is a sin we have plenty of new testament texts to demonstrate this quite easily enough! Now I will address your last point (point 10). This point could easily be revearsed back upon you! Stop judging those who have well defined hereosexual convictions! The bottom line is this: It is a poor reading and application of Matt 7:1 which says that one cannot make a moral or ethical statement about an action (You do this every day and so does everyone else which is a good thing!).
It seems quite clear given the context of the sermon on the mount and especially given the overall context of the Gospel of Matthew that Jesus is here ( notice he is judging and condemning!) hypocritical judging.
Now given the overall points that I have made I ask you to reconsider your position. I love homosexuals. For me to say that homosexuality is not a sin is to hate my homosexual friend. I dont want to leave them in sin. Sin is never good for the sinner! This world is broken and plunged into sin due to the fall. Due to the fall our desires which flow out of our sin soaked heart are often broken and do not function right. Our only hope is in Jesus Christ. He was the only sinless person whose heart never led him in sinful desires. He is the only one is is unstained by the fall. He is the only hope for the forgiveness of sin and the transformation from a sinful broken heart to a pure newly created one. This is true not just for homosexuals in particular but humanity in general. I know that I have offended some people here but know that I love you and sincerely care for you.

Thank you for posting this! You explained everything so beautifully. I am glad there are other Christians out there more eloquent and educated than I who can explain this. It hurts my heart to be told that as a Christian I am hateful and judgemental. Especially considering the work I use to help do at my old church with young male homosexuals. We encouraged them to quit prostituting themselves, helped them find jobs, get mental health treatment, we intentionally included them in community, and loved them. We didn’t hate or judge them, even as a few of the young men/boys continued in their sin, we still loved and supported them. I also have close lesbian freinds, some of who abandoned their husbands and children to pursue their homosexual lifestyle. But this sin didn’t stop me from loving them and befriending them and genuinely including them in my life. So please don’t stereotype me as hating gay people just because I am a Christian who believes in God’s word/

It gets me so angry when “Christians” want to judge and condemn others for anything, especially for being gay. As a Christian myself who is heterosexual, I do know about the infamous verses that Christians always cite when condemning homosexuality; HOWEVER, Matthew 22:36-39 says “36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ Most important in this case being verse 39, “LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF” Additionally, my favorite verses in the Bible, Matthew 7:1-5 “1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. 3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.”

In summary, Jesus tells us to love each other and also not to judge one another. When Christians are condemning people for being homosexual, they are not following EITHER of these words from Christ. As a Christian with several homosexual friends (some of whom are also Christian), I will leave it up to God to decide what is a sin and what is not when it comes to my peers and their sexuality. God did not put any of us as human beings in the position to decide, and homosexuality is NOT mentioned in the 10 commandments. God told us to love each other and not to judge each other. Too many Christians become all self-righteous and believe that they have the authority to make God’s decisions for Him. “Judge not lest ye be judged” and “Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.” Bottom line is, love EVERYONE, because, as a Christian we all need to remember that we are ALL brothers and sisters in Christ, equal to each other, and, like 2pac said, “Only God can judge me!” YEAH!

I agree that to love God and one’s neighbors are God’s greatest commandments. To reason from that point that we are now freed from right and wrong, and to point out something as right or wrong is the only sin, makes no sense. It certainly isn’t supported scripturally. What Jesus meant is that if you follow his greatest commandment, then being obediant to the rest of commandments will automatically follow. It doesn’t mean that we are freed to do whatever pleases us. The Bible, which is God’s word and therefore Jesus’s word, since they are one, lists several examples of specific sin which we are to avoid, Romans 13:13 is just one example.

This argument is a real mixed bag! I’m not saying I disagree with you, but please show a bit more care in how you frame your case. I’ll go point by point.
Point one – excellent! Let’s stop putting words in Jesus’ mouth!
point two – fair enough
point three – who cares?
Point four – true, let’s analyze implications
Point five – Absolutely! Your rights end when they affect me (or someone else.) Whoops, maybe I extrapolated there.
Point six – Sorry, you’ve stretched your reasoning.
Point seven – I have no idea what you are trying to say.
Point eight – True about Leviticus, but the pastoral epistles also apply. The important difference is that Lev spoke of theocracy, the pastorals speak of the church.
Point nine – Always true, but those who oppose you could make the same argument.
Point ten – Your context is wrong, as is the context of most who use this quote.
Hope that was helpful.

Dear Mr. Rigby,
God’s word (the Bible) is truth, it does not flex to accommodate the temporary views of a particular person or a given society.
God’s definition of sin is sin, regardless of what methods we may invent to justify any behavior that he clearly tells us is wrong.
God’s provision of grace and forgiveness is true grace and forgiveness, Jesus did for each of us what we could not do for ourselves, he paid the penalty that was required of us for our sins.
Although he was without sin himself and he perfectly fulfilled the requirements of the Law, he willfully took upon himself the wrath of God that was rightfully yours and mine. He was, and is, as John the Baptist defined him, “the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world” (John, chapter 1, verse 29).
“Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from the law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify (read Isaiah chapter 53…). This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.” (Romans chapter 3, verses 20-22)
“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God…” (Ephesians chapter 2, verse 8)
“If we confess our sins he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John chapter 1, verse 9)
“For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while we wait for the blessed hope – the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purity for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.” (Titus chapter 2, verses 11-14)
The hypocrisy of men will in no way negate the truth of God’s word and no man will be justified by pointing his finger at the hypocrite standing in front of him.
“Then they asked him, What must we do to do the works God requires? Jesus answered, the work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” (speaking of himself) (John chapter 6, verses 28-29)
As for this faith that we are all in desperate need of; “…faith comes by hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.” (Romans chapter 10, verse 17)
I have found Him to be remarkably patient and gracious with me, helping me to overcome sinful habits that I could never have stopped by myself and yet I remain a work in progress. I hope that you or someone else who reads this will discover these same things for themselves.
Sincerely, Steve

I’m not in a position to be arrogant and if it came across that way it was not intentional. I was also not making an effort at criticism, I was only trying to present the truth of God’s word.
Sincerely, Steve

Steve, Thank you for that humility. If we all can speak respectfully to one another we can learn from each other, even if we do not agree. The church in Acts was torn apart by people who could only look at things one way. Somehow we need to realize our differences are can be a gift to the common body. You’ve set a good example. Thanks.

I largely agree with what you say, but the approach has the same sort of arrogant “I-know-I’m-right-and those-people-are-wrong” feel of those you are criticizing. “Ten things I wish the church knew.” Maybe there are things they wish YOU “knew.”

The difference is I’m not trying to take away someone else’s civil rights. I think if people pretend we’re just having a discussion, and leave out the fact that gays and lesbians are being discriminated against, they’ve missed the whole point.

He wasn’t that hot on marriage either. He begrudgingly told his followers that they should marry if they must, if they were incapable of being like him and living a celibate life which was better in his view – implying that procreation wasn’t a good enough reason for to marry. It always bemuses me how so many Christians still hold marriage advice from cranky virgins in such high regard.

what I see as invalid with this entire argument is the fact that the religious zealots are going on facts that were broken down translated and re translated so many times in the last hundred years there is no way in hell that the original scriptures are the same as what we read to day in most versions of the bible it’s like a damn chain letter by the time it goes around it’s changed so many times it does not even bare a resemblance to it’s original self yeah a idea might still remain but it’s not the same intent also i refuse to go by something that was written by man the bible is probably nothing more than a elaborate work of fiction it was basically the television of it’s time

Vir, your statements regarding the accuracy of the Bible are incorrect (not trying to sound arrogant, only stating the facts). There is no other ancient text whose accuracy has been more confirmed by ancient manuscripts than the Bible. Homers Iliad runs a very distant second to the Bible in confirmed ancient copies. One of the most recent and most remarkable confirmations was the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls which included the amazing, prophetic 53rd chapter of Isaiah. Archeological discoveries have over and over again confirmed the historical information in the Bible also.

Steve, Thank you for writing. If you find a Greek or Hebrew version of the Bible and look at the bottom of every page you will find the variations between the different manuscripts. The notation is in shorthand. I once had to write a twenty five page paper just on the variations on one page. I was lucky to have a very wise Hebrew professor named Gene March who said “the reason there is no preserved original text of the Bible is that God hid it so we wouldn’t kill each other over it.”

What if we asked God Himself, instead of struggling trying to interpret scripture…the word of God was meant for us to read but more importantly it should be used to inspire a relationship with God…and to tell us about Jesus (the Savior.) I believe the Bible, I am a Christian, I beloved homosexuality is a sin based on how my spirit perceives the subject. MY spirit, which I try to align with God’s spirit…however I have no judgement or condemnation for those who think or believe differently than I do.because I can’t. I could try to argue here but all I can bring is the love of Jesus. You can’t argue with that.
I mean you can, lol. But it doesn’t go far.
The church is not the enemy.
The homosexuals are not the enemy.
Satan is still the enemy.
Right or wrong, this side or that.
Jesus is alive, and what kind of faith would be mine if I said it was only my personal truth and there might possibly be another way?
I love err’body. 🙂

i don’t know alot about the bible, and i’m not going to pretend I do. I tend to look at religion from a unitarian universalist view. but i do know this. I have an aunt and uncle who had two beautiful boys then during their childhood both my uncle and aunt decided they were homosexual. They have both been with partners for over 15 years (longer then alot of marriages last) and both of my cousins grew up to marry themselves and have happy families and successful careers. There’s no reason in a country where church is supposed to be seperate from state, that they can’t stand up in front of their friends and family and pledge their love to each other and have that recognized by the state.

if you still don’t like it, (and this may seem off topic, but I have ADD and thats how my brain works…another one of those “gene misfires”). think of it as a way to boost the economy. the wedding industry brought in about $48 billion dollars last year and will continue to grow. Let homosexuals marry as they already should have the right to and it could create huge growth in the retail, catering, venue industries… AND what else…yes religious establishments and officiants. think of the jobs it could create.

p.s. if i have any grammer errors, you can correct me, but i don’t really care. i’m not writing a book, its just a post to a blog.

I know I already posted previously on the thread, and that my comment there was in a different context. But as I read more comments, I think many people here are severely missing a key point of this while debate. That key point is exactly what rights are. And, more specifically, what they are with regards to law and humanity.

Everyone knows the famous phrase stated in the Declaration of Independence, known as the sovereign rights of man. “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.” Now, these are the rights that, according to (primarily) Thomas Jefferson, every human being has by default. We are born with these. So what are all these other things we call “rights” about? Marriage, bearing arms, free speech, etc? They are all restrictions, not additional freedoms. This is where most people fail to follow along, and completely miss the point.

The additional “rights” that are listed in the Bill of Rights and legislative documents are restrictions on what others can not prevent you from doing. They are not granting you permission to do anything. They’re merely restricting others from preventing you from speaking freely, practicing religion (or abstaining from religious practice), choosing to own a gun, etc. They also, in many ways, restrict how you can do these things.

1. We stand firm on our faith and will argue for it whenever it is contradicted. We are not fixated on interfering with your sexlife. You’re the ones who brought it up.

2. The Christian verdict on same-sex intercourse does not rest on any single quote from the Bible; it is part of a biblically based, comprehensive understanding of the universe, which includes e.g. the belief that God created man and woman for each other, and intended heterosexuality as the pattern for all life.

3. A direct quote from Jesus is not required for Christians to have a firm opinion about something. Our moral beliefs are also based on other knowledge about Jesus’ approach, e.g. the oral tradition that was transmitted to the Church through His apostles.

4. Christians believe that there are absolute, non-relative and non-subjective truths.

5. We do not judge homosexuals, because homosexuality is a condition and not an action. It is not sinful to be a homosexual – but it is sinful to have sex with someone of your own gender. Saying so is not judging in the sense that Jesus meant, i.e. judging a person. It is judging the moral validity of an action.

6. Every civilization since the dawn of time has recognized that the unique procreating, child-rearing relationship between man and woman needs protection, usually in the form of special legal status, rights and duties, which other sexual relationships don’t need. Every language has a special word reserved for this; we call it marriage. Re-defining that word does not help homosexuals, it merely weakens the language.

7. Traditional Christians do not encourage persecution. We are ashamed of those who persecute homosexuals in the name of Christ. We do, however, not consider it persecution to say publicly what we believe, even when it goes against your agenda.

8. Christians traditionally consider homosexuality as one aspect of the imperfect condition that affects all of humanity as a result of our damaged relationship with God. We all have in us the lust to sin – do things that God forbids. A homosexual is no worse a sinner than anyone else. We freely admit that everyone sins. The correct way to deal with sin is to regret it, confess it, and try to abstain from it in the future. The wrong way is to pretend that it isn’t a sin.

9. I don’t speak for all who call themselves Christians, but just as I try to listen to reasonable gay people, I expect gays to listen to reasonable Christians and not to bundle me in with hateful lunatic fringe groups like e.g. the Westboro Baptist Church.

These are my initial reactions only and not given from any position of
greater knowledge. Apologies if I sound pedantic its just my awkward
writing style.

It is most instructive and I believe necessary to read the comments that
follow his list. First in order to understand the arguments posited
against his list, and some are cogent, pointing out his own cherry
picking of biblical writings (which we decry when done against us) and
second to try to understand the feelings of those people.

Years ago a therapist told me “all feelings are true” even if only to
that one person and you must take in to account their “truth”, not
believe it, but realize that merely pointing out the illogic of their
position doesn’t work. The “why” of their position is important before
the “what”. We must at least try to engage them while taking in to
account the reason for those feelings.

I know it seems particularly unjust to need to do that when you
personally are a target of their prejudice .

We have to be careful using a biblical approach in response if we don’t
believe The Word/Gospel. The response of a non believer using the The
Word can feel shallow and (forgive my dysphasia, the only word I am
getting is inconsiderate which is no where near the depth of the feeling
they get. Perhaps thoughtless or tactless, arrogant and elitist is
better. The point I am trying to make is a statement from someone who
comes across as a non believer is more easily ignored. If you don’t
believe The Word that you are using as refutation then maybe it is best
to take a different tack. Be personal use your feelings. Studies show
that when someone knows someone who is LGBT it changes their vision of
the subject(s) (not necessarily completely) that are related to LGBT
even if the person they “know” is a media personality. I am not saying
we should ignore biblical knowledge but if you aren’t a believer using
The Word is definitely more difficult and I don’t know how one frames a
statement about the contradictory nature of the bible. I wish I did but
their are people here who could better lay out how to dance that
particular dance.

It is impossible to make someone “know” you in a single encounter and
difficult perhaps when writing a letter to the edit or an Op/Ed piece
but educating matters and not by denying their “truth” but making
personal your truth.

I find it interesting that everyone is an expert in religion when it suits them. Even if homosexuality were to be fully accepted by a religious organization and the legal system, would the next step be to argue that sex parties and promiscuity were equally acceptable to Jesus? Afterall, most of the homosexual behavior in this nation occurs under conditions that would be religiously wrong if they were heterosexuals. Don’t believe me, check the facts . . . or just ask your gay friends.

Those that are continually trying to bend a religion to suit their own needs should consider why they feel the need to convince others that they are wrong. If you believe that you can practice your lifestyles and go to Heaven, who cares what others believe. Your rewards will follow in the next life . . . as long as you’re correct. Instead of wasting time telling other people that they’re wrong to believe what they believe, worry about making sure the rest of your life is in-line with the teachings of a religion you’re trying to gain the approval of. If the only “sin” in your life is a homosexual relationship, then maybe it’s worth figuring out whether that’s going to “bar the door”. Does it really matter what Jesus thinks about homosexuality if you’re doing other things that you know he doesn’t approve of?

Thank you for writing, but I wish you would give others the same rights you claim for yourself. You call your blog “reasoned truth,” but you say we should base our lives on the prejudice of others? How is that reasonable? And how is it reasonable for you to claim that most homosexual behavior would be religiously wrong if done by heterosexuals? What on earth are you basing that on? Where does the Bible detail sexual positions? You are letting fundamentalists speak for the whole church, and it is throwing off your thinking.

My purpose is not to tell people what they believe is wrong. My purpose is to tell them and you to stop bothering their neighbors and to stop telling lies like you just did when you pretended you know what is happening in other peoples’ bedrooms. You don’t know that. Leave them alone.

You are welcome to come here and post here anytime, but I’m not going to stand by silently while you bear false witness against my GLBT neigbours. If you don’t want your bigotry confronted, then don’t bring it to this blog.

I am sorry to be so blunt. You are welcome here, but I need you to treat other people like human beings while you’re on this site.

Some of you should be ashamed of yourselves!! Calling each other names and mocking each other while quoting scripture!! A sin is a sin. LIVING in sin and being unrepentant is where the problem lies!

1 corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! The sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, passive homosexual partners, practicing homosexuals, 10 thieves, the greedy, drunkards, the verbally abusive, and swindlers will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Everything you do has consequences if it’s not to the golory and honor of Jesus Christ. God will judge.
John 14:15 “If you love me you will keep my commandments”

Jill, help me understand how your telling people they are “immoral, idolaters, adulterers, drunkards” and telling them they “should be ashamed” not “calling each other names and mocking each other while quoting scripture?” It sounds like you’re only counting name calling from one direction.

Where did I call people names? I was quoting scripture where it gives example of the people who will not inherent the kingdom, homosexuals included in that passage. This discussion is about homosexuality correct?

There are, in fact, places in the NT (Rom. 1: 26-27) that term homosexual relations “vile” and “against nature”.

However, if the church is going to speak out against homosexuality as a sin they first need to address other sins equally – anger, lying, greed, and selfishness are unequivocally sins and they are even more pervasive than the current issue of homosexuality. In front of a holy God, every single one of our short-comings is an equal blemish. Why don’t we single out people with chronic anger or lying problems instead of the LGBT population? Even as a Christian, I am still trying to fathom these actions on the part of the church…

I disagree that we can be certain what Paul means in that passage. If you’ll read the comments below, the point may be clearer. Since there isn’t a word for “homosexual” in Greek, then we can’t say we know for sure that’s what Paul meant when someone uses that word in a translation. I realize that you can open your English translation of the Bible and see the word “homosexual.” A hundred people have pointed that out, but it’s missing my point every time. I”m saying if you open up an objective study tool like an concordance, that clarity will disappear. Homosexuality was a violation of the cleanliness code, not an ethical violation. I appreciate you sharing your thoughts.

To Those wondering whether same sex attraction could have a purpose in nature, research in rats and overpopulation shows a rise in non procreationary sex between same sex partners the more crowded and scarce food sources become. Same sex attraction occurs in not just selective species but has been observed across the board. Recently a look at statistics has shown a correlation between birth position and homosexuality. The more sons in a family the more likely the younger ones will be homosexual. Those evangelicals arguing God hates gays need to stop equating nature with God. Nature determines pregnancies not God. And the likelihood is determines your sexual orientation. They are looking for God in all the wrong places.

I appreciate the respectful tone of most of the arguments posted here. I just have one thing to say about the position of civil marriage that most people don’t really think about when discussing the great GLBT et al. If a person is born a “female” they are legally allowed to marry a “male.”
Here’s the thing though I was born “female” and I married a “male” when I was in my early 20s. I then figured out through the process of life that I am attracted to “females” and split with my spouse and partnered with a “female” whom I was not legally allowed to marry. After some time I figured out that there was a name for what I felt and that I was indeed a transsexual. I went through legal and medical procedures to become “male” and am now legally allowed to marry women. However, if I had Not divorced my “male” spouse we would still be Federally recognized as a Married couple because our marriage took place when I was still legally “female.”

I enjoy my right under the law to marry the woman I love… whom I wouldn’t have been allowed to marry a few years ago. Same People involved but because of the difference in legal status of my gender we can now enjoy equal protection under the law. What is it that makes this part of my relationship more legitimate in the eyes of the law? Why would my previous marriage to a “male” still be legally valid now since I am now a “male”? It just doesn’t pass any logic tests.

I know the fundamentalists will still say I’m abhorrent or that I must hate god for being who I am in the world. Truthfully, I used to be very angry with God. I didn’t understand how a God who professed Love could allow so much hate in the world. I am not angry with God anymore and I do not hate anyone. I was born this way. I remember being 3 years old and telling my mom that I was a boy. I also remember being told in no uncertain terms that I was Not a boy. That led to decades of denying myself to a fundamental core level; which then led to alcoholism and suicide attempts. I’ve now earned my Masters Degree in Psychology and have my BA in Religious Studies because I Needed to understand why people use the name of any deity to justify hating and harming others. The conclusion I’ve drawn is that almost every religion teaches that the way to salvation is to Love each other and to have Compassion for each other.

Is it our right to judge other people? no. We all view the world through our own lenses and so we each have our own values and beliefs about how to have a good life. It behooves us as people in the world to be kind to others because we can never know what the other person has been through to bring them to where they are in their Personal Life Journey. It’s our mandate to help others. Feed the hungry, cure the sick, clothe the poor, help those who are abused and those who abuse (because at some point in their lives they too where likely the victims of abuse,) and stop worrying so much about someone else taking things from us that they cannot possibly take. Where is that ideology in our debate about who gets to love whom? What happened to the Lords Prayer? Forgive us our debts and debtors, those who trespass against us and those whom we have trespassed against etc… Why are we so transfixed on homosexuality when we have so many other more harmful things to worry about in our society? I just don’t get it.

A GLBT et al person who marries someone they Love makes our World a better place to live and does not in any way detract from other people’s Loving relationships. In fact, our world is an abundant place and the ideology of fear and lack is what drives us to war. When someone in the world achieves their dream it only adds to the abundance there is no limits on the availability of Love.

Todd, That is a very clever rebuttal. I can tell you have a very good mind to think of that, but it demonstrates the danger I’m talking about. What you say appears true in English, but Jesus does use that word (charis) in Luke 6:32. You can’t see it in English because it’s translated as “reward” in this context.

In English, the case against homosexuals looks bullet proof simply because of a tradition of translating those words, but in Greek the concepts are similarly complex and poorly served by taking the English literally. If there is any uncertainty at all about whether your judgment of homosexuals is really coming from the text, wouldn’t it make sense to offer them the same kind of “grace” you rightly see Christ offering you whether or not he used that specific word?

Granted. Of course, charis is used in numerous senses, and the sense of Luke 6 does not reflect the sense of its appearance in places like Ephesians 2:5 and 2:8.

The utter destruction of the cities of the plain, the Levitical passages, and those of righteous kings removing the sodomites from the land are not authoritative, but they do give us a clear picture of God’s view of the practice of homosexuality.

Additionally, the case against homosexuality need not involve all the traditional NT texts (Romans 1, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, etc) even though I accept as valid the general interpretations thereof.

But 1 Corinthians 7:2 is plain — “Therefore, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife and every woman her own husband.” The clear and binding implication is that any form of sexual intercourse outside of that of a husband and wife constitutes fornication. And in the case of fornication, one need not practice hermeneutical gymnastics to try and avoid the natural reading and reasonable understanding of Romans 1 and 1 Corinthians 6, not to mention Galatians 5:19-21.

I don’t believe in the fairy tales of Adam and Eve and Noah’s Ark, anymore than I believe that Christians have an inside to Heaven. The Bible was written over a period of hundreds of years and changed so many times to fit whatever regime was in power at the time that it is laughable. I don’t think that Christians should care if people want same sex equality and rights. I don’t care that Christians think they know everything. I do care that the holy wars were nothing but torture and killings in the name of God. What I do care is that just because everyone has an opinion does not mean that one outweighs the other. If there is a God and I believe their is a Higher Power; then every religion will have its own opinions and believes. Why do Christians care if homosexuals want the same rights that blacks and women were denied for so many years? How on earth does that affect any of us. I am sure I will hear lots of criticism for this post. And, guess what, I don’t care.

Thank you for writing. I believe the difference between a symbol and a fairy tale is that the symbol reveals certain aspects of our experience. When I read scripture I realize I am not reading science or history. Science is about our objective connections to the world, religion is about our subjective and intuitive connections. I don’t believe there was ever a real person named “Adam” but the story helps me realize that I belong to the earth. I know that truth when I read about evolution, but I feel it when I read the creation story. When I read Darwin I am educating my head. When I read Genesis, I am educating my heart.

It is all very interesting to read the discussion as it pertains to people’s translation of the Bible. What happens when we get into a discussion of the Quran, which is more widely followed than the Bible. We will be facing this discussion a lot sooner than folks realize.

Good question, Becky. I know there are as many progressive Muslims as Christians or Jews so I’ll bet they will figure this out as well. I personally believe people turn to fundamentalism as a result of some kind of historical or cultural trauma. Many of the Muslim nations have suffered exploitation and colonization this last century so it shouldn’t be a surprise to see fundamentalism rise up in their midst. I think fundamenatalism says more about our biology than it does about the religion it takes over to rationalize what it is doing. Christian fundamentalism has almost nothing to do with anything Jesus said, I think it’s the same with Islamic fundamentalism. What do you think?

My purpose in writing the article was to help people of faith realize they are not violating scripture to give GLBT their rights. That may sound irrelevant to you, but lots of decent people vote against same sex-marriage because they think the Bible prohibits it. I agree that no sectarian religion should deny civil rights to those outside its group, but since they do, it isn’t irrelevant in my opinion to address the issue.

I think this article was great. I actually ended up here after reading some very hateful comments on Ben & Jerry’s photos of a custom ice cream carton they made for a gay wedding. (Who knew ice cream could be so controversial)

I am a spiritual person but I have to admit, the people saying it’s against the bible has made me NOT want to believe anymore. That’s horrible in itself, isn’t it, to ever make anybody feel that way? For any reason. Because if God is that kind of a being, someone who would create LBGT people and then send them to hell for it, (If you say it’s not a born trait then why do giraffes and bats and dogs and most animals have documented cases of homosexuality, even in the wild?) why would he be that cruel of a being and if he is, I’d rather spend my time in hell, because that is horrible. What about how much he ‘tests’ us, how do you know this isn’t a test? I am just saying, maybe he wants to know what will win, the power of love or the power of hate because of one thing? We don’t know. I know that sounds horrible, but we don’t. and we won’t know till we die, and by then what if it is too late? What if you thought banning gay marriage was right, just to die and find out it wasn’t? Or how about if you stand up for it and find it wasn’t right… How about if you do stand up for it, grant it, go to heaven because you did have love in your heart, even though it was a sin, and then, guess what, those getting gay marriages were judged for themselves by God? My big point being, no one actually knows. And I believe trying to find out from a scripture that could have been, and probably WAS altered by greedy men is a very hard thing to do. So why not try to be as loving as you can while you’re on this earth? You don’t agree with gay marriage? Don’t get one, but the people who do get one are the ones who will live with the consequences, not you. Right? So what’s the issue?

And those saying not all Christians hate homosexuals, this article is obviously not about you. There are Christians that are gay, even.

Also, I believe, that there are so many sins, and if one is not greater than another, why in the world are the naysayers focusing on THIS one? It bugs me.

Also, do You think anyone outraged when 20 year olds used to marry 14 and 15 year olds? No, it was survival because the average lifespan was only 17 or a few after. Now, times have changed and we are focused on the gays, but we’re also faced with over population, how do we know that’s not a tool that’s been given (by God) to help the human race to survive this hardship. I mean, the possibilities are endless. That’s why God is an almighty being, remember?

People act like it’s contagious to be homosexual. It’s not, so love and let love.

I get a lot of comments from people who have left religion because they want to be kind, or honest. Just know there are many of us in religions all over the world who are working to repair the damage you rightly abhor. We also accept you as you are without having to become like us. Best wishes and thank you for writing.

1. Do not Steal or damage property that does not belong to you.
2. Do not Harm anyone or put them in the position to be harmed.
3. Do not Kill anyone unless it is strictly in the preservation of your own life.

Anything else is between You and God only. Leave people to their own business and worry only about your own.

P.S. I would rather spend an eternity of suffering and torment, than to spend an eternity of cushy bliss with the likes of Christians or any other zealous dogmatic cult fanclub. See God with your own eyes!!!

Well stated, Mr. Rigby. As a practicing heterosexual who has suffered the embarrassment of a church, too much of which, rushes to non Biblical condemnation, I am pleased and blessed by your thoughtful points. I certainly appreciate those who lead the charge that will allow us to look back in years to come and realize how closed and fearful we can be.

Why can’t we all just get along? We are all the same! We all have different preferences on everything! It doesn’t matter what you prefer, as long as you are a good person who cares! I am straight but I have a few gay friends and I love them as much as I love my family and my straight friends as well. I honestly don’t think god would create a being knowing they were gay just to send them to hell when they die. He loves ALL his children! Not just the ones who interpret “His word” to benefit them and give them reason to bash others who are different. We should love and except one another and get over these racist beliefs.

Thanks for helping us to think. June 15 is the 30th anniversary of being together and 27 years since you performed our marriage ceremony. We appreciate your excellence, hope you are happy and having fun. And we’d like to know if you still perform the Chihuahua Song live.

1. If Jesus did not mention a subject, it cannot be essential to his teachings.
This silly statement means that pederasty, fratricide, and running a ponzi scheme to defraud others are all just peachy with Jesus, since he never mentioned them.

2. You are not being persecuted when prevented from persecuting others.
Yes, however, if you are being called a hateful bigot for affirming biblical standards of sexual morality, chances are that you ARE in fact “being persecuted.” Further, it is not “persecuting” someone simply to say “God says this is evil.”

3. Truth isn’t like wine that gets better with age. It’s more like manna you must recognize wherever you are and whoever you are with.

This gem actually denies that there is any “truth” at all which is binding on all situations, including that which would forbid doing violence against others…. where’s my meat cleaver?

4. You cannot call it “special rights” when someone asks for the same rights you have.

But what if I have never asked for the right to use the state to define a perversion as “normal”?

5. It is no longer your personal religious view if you’re bothering someone else.
This is a phenomenally silly statement. My personal religious view is not equivalent to my PRIVATE religious view. Religious views by definition are always personal.

6. Marriage is a civil ceremony, which means it’s a civil right.
Actually, Marriage is not a civil institution (not a ceremony) at all, but a religious one. The state has demanded the right to license and authorize this religious institution, by claiming the right to authorize the initial ceremony. Biblical Christians would do far better simply to deny that the state has any authority at all re: marriage, and let the heathen have their own ceremonies and call it what they wish.

7. If how someone stimulates the pubic nerve has become the needle to your moral compass, you are the one who is lost.

The irony here is beyond words.

8. To condemn homosexuality, you must use parts of the Bible you don’t yourself obey. Anyone who obeyed every part of Leviticus would rightly be put in prison.

Except that Leviticus is not the only place in the bible that condemns homosexual behavior…., just the only place where the civil entity of Israel is commanded to execute the death penalty for it (well not really, but I will assume a person who makes such an assertion is not real big on biblical authority in the first place, so lets not confuse them with a bunch of verses. Anyway, homosexual behavior is condemned in a number of places in the bible, old and new testaments. Answering the rest of this silly charge would require that the OP have some idea of the nature of what they are mocking, so lets just leave it with 1) no New Testament Christian thinks the law requires me to go to Jerusalem every year to offer sacrifice and 2) EVERY requirement in Leviticus (and all the law) is perfectly fulfilled… by me…. in Christ… including all the commands about different cloth types and different seed in the field.

9. If we do not do the right thing in our day, our grandchildren will look at us with same embarrassment we look at racist grandparents.

The short answer to this is that “my grandchildren” are not the sovereign judges of history.

10. When Jesus forbade judging, that included you.
But not moralistic preachy modernists, it seems. I am not called to be a “judge” it is true. The only way that is possible is to submit to the revealed law of God as the standard for human behavior. Anything other than this REQUIRES you to be a “judge” declaring “well this is all about love and tolerance and warm puppies and stuff….. , but THAT is cold and judgmental and harsh and unfeeling. I can’t accept that. It is old fashioned and a rigid prudish relic.”…….. so who is the judge here?

Hi to all and Peace. I just would like to add my thoughts. But first a little about me. I’m 1 of 8 raised in a non religious non abusive, unconditional loving stable house hold with both parents present and I’m gay and the second youngest. My brother and I went to a Catholic school as a deal done with the Church and my fathers business. I became evolved heavily with Christianity which has caused great confusion and pain in my life. I have tried several churches and religions, none of them felt right. Form the time I can remember being homosexual I desperately tried to ignor it and tried to be heterosexual. I literally have had girls throwing themselves at me from when I was about 13 and had several girl friends up until i was 23, so it’s not like I haven’t had opportunities, however I have never had sex with a woman even when I paid for sex it didn’t happen. Several things occur when Im with a woman, The first is smell and without offense, the smell of a woman I find unatracting where I find man smell attracting. The second kissing a woman I squint my eyes, shake and pull back more noticeable to the woman than I and it’s been pointed out several times even after I desperately tried to stop the behaviour. Third I never get aroused by the female form or when being with a woman. I become easily aroused with thoughts of men. Lastly I have been physcially sick several times with several women. I have prayed, ignored the thoughts, ignored myself, attempted suicide because of how I feel and my faith in God and how that faith is the opposite to how I feel. At 23 I realised that all religion is a moral guide book, right from wrong how does being attracted to the same cause harm, which has questions but consenting attraction is harmless, in fact you would not know it unless I told you. I also realised religion is not Sprituality as I know my sprit I was born with and religion I wasn’t. I also realised a creator is not the property of religion nor is a creator about to create something just to destroy it. If this were to be the case then why create a universe and complex life forms, then get man to write the laws. Let there be a universe but to lazy to write rules in a single understandable language. I realised the bible Torah qu’ran etc are written to make you behave, conform and fear. There is this notion that if you do not do what a man made book tells you to do then you are Spritualy morally corrupt lost evil Hell hound incapable of acting in a manner that does no harm and is loving peaceful respectful of others animals and planet, well that notion is wrong and unethical. You can be homosexual and still be a good spritual being after all did God mention sex in the after life.

Hmmm…this whole thread is a perfect example of what I would think Jesus wouldnt want…people arguing and insulting each other. Regardless of your beliefs, weare all entitled to our own opinions, and insulting others because they believe differently than you should be wrong in ANY faith.

5. It is no longer your personal religious view if you’re bothering someone else. Why do homosexual couples sue churches or Christian businesses who cannot participate in their ceremonies if it is no longer a personal view if you are bothering someone else? Doesn’t the lawsuit bother the Christian?

Thank you for reading the post and for thinking about it. I agree with you if you are saying that an ethical principle works both ways, but I’ve never heard of a gay couple suing a church for not allowing a ceremony. Are you saying that if you can find an example of a gay couple being unfair, that you have a right to be unfair to the rest of them? Is that really a position you want to hold?

Oh for heaven’s sake. We cannot actually know what Jesus “said,” because we were not there. And most of the Gospels were written many years after his death. What we do know is that he taught people to heal the sick, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, comfort those ill or imprisoned. Just do that, everyone, and we will all be better people. Oh and then there’s forgive, as you have been forgiven — that always works.
Accept and love people for who they are, and stop with the judgmental attitude.

Firstly I personally have nothing against homosexuality. I think whoever posted this needs to look over this and change some of the grammar.
1 Cor. 6:9-10, “Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor HOMOSEXUALS, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God.”
I don’t believe that you get into Heaven though actions or are condemned to Hell through actions. But instead we can all be saved by the grace of Jesus Christ.
So homosexuality is a sin. But it is acceptable sin.
The 5th thing the writer wrote is simply disgusting. First off it is still your view and how could you think you could say that. That is so wrong in so many ways. That is literally one of the most evil things I have ever heard; because with that ideology Government could ban religion that they didn’t believe in. What if praying, the most basic act in any religion, bothered someone does that mean that they have to stop. Also I could use that statement against your whole argument. What is your religious view is that homosexuality is okay, if that bothers someone that is no longer your view point

The fifth point was, “It is no longer your personal religious view if you’re bothering someone else.” If that is one of the most evil thing you have ever heard, you have lived a very sheltered life. My point is you can’t harrass other people and call it your personal faith. If you believe homosexuals should receive the same rights you and I have, then we are in agreement, but if you want to prevent them from living a full life don’t call it your “personal” faith. It isn’t your personal life when you intrude on others. You don’t have an inalienable right to deprive others of their inalienable rights. Sorry if that disgusts you.

For all the people still trying to say that Jesus was against homosexuality;

Were you there when he said it? No.

Was Jesus around when the Bible was written to be properly quoted? No.

Did anybody Jesus ever met write one single word of any of the books of the Bible? No.

You can go ahead and STFU now, because none of the Bible can actually be quoted as accurate proof to what Jesus or any of the disciples may or may not have said or done. It’s all hearsay, written several generations later, by people who had only heard the trickled downed, embellished versions, and the versions that you read today has been inaccurately translated from one language to the next and was also debated on and changed at the Nicene Council to suit the Rome’s political agenda of the 4th Century who were trying to combine two religions to qualm the civil unrest of the Early Christians and Pagans.

John, There are lots of rebuttals of the article online. I have responded to many of them in earlier posts. Most of them are just repeating the same cliches as this one, but you’re welcome to go through them and respond.

1. Jesus said that from the beginning (in principio) marriage is between a man and a woman. He didn’t mention any exception to the rule. But then, if Jesus did not mention a subject, it cannot be essential to his teachings, right?

2. You are not persecuting at all when you merely tell someone to stay away from sin.

4. Depends on who asks. When an incestuous couple asks for the right to marry that right would be so very, very special that it should be denied.

5. In that case it is still your personal religious view, your publicly communicated personal religious view, strictly speaking. The necessary separation of church and state should not be confused with an undemocratic separation of office and belief or voting behavior and religiously informed opinion.

6. Marriage is, among other things, a civil ceremony. But what LGBT’s call “gay marriage” isn’t marriage at all. If you desperately want it to be a civil ceremony be creative, give it some other name!

7. D’accord

8. As a Christian you neither have to follow the civil law nor the ceremonial law of ancient Israel. But you have to hold in high regard the moral law. To condemn homosexual behavior (i.e. not homosexuals!) you have to use parts of the Bible you must obey yourself, at least if you want to inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor 6:9).

9. Wasn’t it St. Paul who said: “If I were still trying to please Christ, I would not be a servant of my grandchildren”? (Gal 1:10) Hmm. No?!

Of course I have read it. As a Christian I am not bound by the Levitical (cleanliness) Codes and instead am commanded by Christ to call no one ‘unclean.” So are you my friend. I don’t know how you read the gospel and came out thinking the Scribes and Pharisees got it right. According to Paul, the letter of the law kills. So you can memorize every verse of scripture, but if you don’t have love, you haven’t understood a thing.

This is almost identical to Leviticus 18:22. In transliterated Hebrew, the verse is written: “V’ish asher yishkav et zachar mishk’vei ishah to’evah asu shneihem mot yumatu d’meihem bam.” However, it adds a compulsory death penalty to the participants. In various translation the passage has been translated:

ASV: (American Standard Version, 1901) “And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.”
Darby: (J.N. Darby Translation, 1890): “And if a man lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall certainly be put to death; their blood is upon them.”
ESV: (English Standard Version): “If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.”
HNV: (Hebrew Names Version): “If a man lies with a male, as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.”
KJV: (King James Version): “If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.”
LB: (Living Bible): “The penalty for homosexual acts is death to both parties. They have brought it upon themselves.”
NASB: (New American Standard Bible): “‘If {there is} a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them. ”
Net Bible: “If a man has sexual intercourse with a male as one has sexual intercourse with a woman, the two of them have committed an abomination. They must be put to death; their blood guilt is on themselves.” 1
NIV: (New International Version) “If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.”
NKJV: (New King James Version) “If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.”
NLT: (New Living Translation): “The penalty for homosexual acts is death to both parties. They have committed a detestable act, and are guilty of a capital offense.”
RSV: (Revised Standard Version): “If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death; their blood is upon them.”
Webster: (Noah Webster Version, 1833): “If a man also shall lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them.”
Young: (Robert Young Literal Translation, 1898) “And a man who lieth with a male as one lieth with a woman; abomination both of them have done; they are certainly put to death; their blood [is] on them.”

Wow… I can’t believe I’m reading this. Are you really a pastor?!!!
I dont look down on homosexuals but we all know that it is wrong. The Bible is so clear about it…
Pastor Jim I pray that God will give you the knowledge to truly understand his word because I’m not so sure that you truly do…

Thank you for expressing your concern. I have a favor to ask you. I’m assuming your church has never taught you how to use biblical tools like a concordance. If you do not have one, go to a library and look up the word “homosexual.” What you will discover is that neither Greek nor Hebrew had a word for it. What that means is that a few translators chose that word to translate another word that could be translated in different ways. Strong’s Concordance has numbers that can be helpful in getting past the propaganda of our denomination and closer to what Jesus actually said. You have a responsibility to find this out for yourself and not just trust what others say. Judging others is the most dangerous thing we can do. Please check this out for yourself.

Thanks Eruaran. This article will give people a good idea of the difference between the Reformed tradition, and those who are still reforming. I think the author gives an excellent summary of yesterday’s pre-scientific answers to the question of human sexuality. Do you happen to know if he defends slavery based on this same kind of literalist biblical interpretation detached from any concern about what it means to real people?

I agree that silence doesn’t imply that Jesus condoned homosexuality but you’re avoiding my point. Silence can’t be used to say he condemned it either. My point is if you want to dehumanize gays and lesbian persons, leave Jesus out of it.