As tragic and brutal was Zoya's death, the question must be asked: Did she suffer and die in defence of the Orthodox faith? According to the account of her life, this does not seem to be the case. Rather, it seems to me that she died defending the ideals of the soviet state into which she was born, and which she served, most bravely, I might add.

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I think the answer is "absolutely not." There were many young and older people, both men and women, who committed acts of sabotage against the German army during the invasion of the USSR in 1941-44. Similarly, there were many Germans and German sympathizers who committed acts of sabotage against the Soviets. When they were caught by the side against whom they committed sabotage, they were very often brutally tortured and then executed. While this is abominable and I have pity to all people who were tortured, I don't see how this can be a reason for canonization.

BTW, what kind of Web site is this? The music that they play, the tune of the song "Orlyonok" ("Little Eagle") was a propagandist Young Communist League song, kind of like "Horst Wessel" was the theme song of the SS and Hitlerugend.

As tragic and brutal was Zoya's death, the question must be asked: Did she suffer and die in defence of the Orthodox faith? According to the account of her life, this does not seem to be the case. Rather, it seems to me that she died defending the ideals of the soviet state into which she was born, and which she served, most bravely, I might add.

If to judge formally (like bishops and scribes do) then no, if to judge essentially then yes.

BTW, what do you think of the canonization of the last Tzar and his family? Did they die for the faith or for the country? They were ready to go to Britain, but were not accepted there. Grand princesses sewed diamonds into their closes and screamed with horror when they were shot (according to one TV program I saw on Russian Orthodox (Pravoslavny) channel).

I hope you understand me correctly: I do not justify the murder of the Romanovs by the admirers of Heine's poetry. I think it was a crime. Just hiding diamonds and screaming does not correspond with the image of a holy martyr that I have.

I think that there would be much more truth in canonizing Zoya, than there was in canonizing Romanov's. In other topics in this forum there are complaints that religion is losing its ground. It is because of the luck of the truth, because of corruption.

BTW, what do you think of the canonization of the last Tzar and his family? Did they die for the faith or for the country? They were ready to go to Britain, but were not accepted there. Grand princesses sewed diamonds into their closes and screamed with horror when they were shot (according to one TV program I saw on Russian Orthodox (Pravoslavny) channel).

I hope you understand me correctly: I do not justify the murder of the Romanovs by the admirers of Heine's poetry. I think it was a crime. Just hiding diamonds and screaming does not correspond with the image of a holy martyr that I have.

The imperial family was murdered as a deliberate political act to show the repudiation of monarchy, religion and Orthodoxy by the Bolshevik regime. The tsars of the Russian empire regarded themselves as the spiritual and temporal successors of the Byzantine emperors. Moscow had styled itself "the Third Rome" following the fall of Constantinople in 1453. The word tsar is derived from Caesar, and the city of Constantinople was often called Tsargrad (Caesar's City) by Russians instead of Konstantinopol'. At his coronation, the tsar would be vested in Byzantine-style robes, and would be anointed by the Patriarch of Moscow. During the ceremony, the tsar would take Holy Communion, not in the nave as a layman, but in the altar, as would a member of the clergy.

The affectionate terms used by the Russian people for their tsar and tsarina were Batiushka (Little Father) and Matushka (Little Mother), the identical terminology used by laymen to this day for a priest and his wife. This is quite deliberate. Of course the people knew full well the tsar was not a clergyman, but the use of such terminology reflected the interrelationship of tsar, Church and people of the empire. Therefore, the assassination of this family was loaded with the symbolism of the "death of religion and the triumph of atheism and Bolshevism". It is for the same reason that the cathedral of Christ the Saviour in Moscow was publicly destroyed on the personal order of Josef Stalin, and the destruction documented in print and on film.

By contrast, we see in the account of the short and unfortunate life of Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya no mention of God, Christ, or faith. She went down fighting, to be sure, but in defence of her country and the Soviet system, not in defence of the Orthodox faith. I suspect this supposed push for her canonisation is not unlike the recent, and unsuccessful, move to have Josef Stalin canonised.

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As tragic and brutal was Zoya's death, the question must be asked: Did she suffer and die in defence of the Orthodox faith? According to the account of her life, this does not seem to be the case. Rather, it seems to me that she died defending the ideals of the soviet state into which she was born, and which she served, most bravely, I might add.

If to judge formally (like bishops and scribes do) then no, if to judge essentially then yes.

She died essentially for Stalin. You formally judge like komisars and propogandists. Whatever serves the Party.

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BTW, what do you think of the canonization of the last Tzar and his family? Did they die for the faith or for the country? They were ready to go to Britain, but were not accepted there. Grand princesses sewed diamonds into their closes and screamed with horror when they were shot (according to one TV program I saw on Russian Orthodox (Pravoslavny) channel).

The Imperial family, their English physician stated, had other means to leave the country, but the Tsar decided that the rejection by King George was a sign that they were to remain with the Russian people.

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I hope you understand me correctly: I do not justify the murder of the Romanovs by the admirers of Heine's poetry. I think it was a crime. Just hiding diamonds and screaming does not correspond with the image of a holy martyr that I have.

You judging formally?

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I think that there would be much more truth in canonizing Zoya, than there was in canonizing Romanov's. In other topics in this forum there are complaints that religion is losing its ground. It is because of the luck of the truth, because of corruption.

Because some people lack discernment.

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All accounts of the Royal Family in Russia noted their piety and their example of Christian Family life and there are many indications that the Tsar himself declined personal rescue as he did not wish further bloodshed on his account. there are indications that he knew that he would eventually be killed. The Tsarina's personal piety is well known and documented by those who knew her. The children remained pure and devout through out their captivity despite the posting of men who deliberately were vulgar in front of them and tried to degrade them, they held firm to their Orthodox faith to the point of their death. I doubt any child being shot would not cry out in shock and perhaps fear, but it is noted even among the murder squad that upon realization of what was happening members of the Royal Family crossed themselves and they note that they knew where to go to complete the "coupe de gras" by hearing them pray through their tears. While many can dispute the actions of the Royal family during their reign, it can truly be said that while imprisoned, they exhibited great faith in the Holy Orthodox Church,developed deeper relationships with their Savior, and exemplified what it means to be a passion-bearer of Christ in their light. Many who observed this were strengthened in their faith at a time of great adversity.

I think the answer is "absolutely not." There were many young and older people, both men and women, who committed acts of sabotage against the German army during the invasion of the USSR in 1941-44. Similarly, there were many Germans and German sympathizers who committed acts of sabotage against the Soviets. When they were caught by the side against whom they committed sabotage, they were very often brutally tortured and then executed. While this is abominable and I have pity to all people who were tortured, I don't see how this can be a reason for canonization.

Really? A lot of people were crucified in Roman Empire as well.

Zoya is not remembered for being tortured and killed. She is remembered because she did not betray neither her comrades nor her suffering by a singe cry. And for saying a speech with a noose around her neck.

Please reserve your pity for the reporters from conservative Fox news, who converted to Islam and for WSJ reporter, who was not offered such an opportunity.

BTW, what kind of Web site is this? The music that they play, the tune of the song "Orlyonok" ("Little Eagle") was a propagandist Young Communist League song, kind of like "Horst Wessel" was the theme song of the SS and Hitlerugend.

And a very great number of them were crucified because they refused to renounce their Christian faith.

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Zoya is not remembered for being tortured and killed. She is remembered because she did not betray neither her comrades nor her suffering by a single cry. And for saying a speech with a noose around her neck.

But, I ask again, did she die in defence of the Orthodox faith?

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Our Zoya is a saint and lives with God and does not need yor pity.

So you know the mind of God, do you? That's wonderful news. Please share your secret with us.

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The affectionate terms used by the Russian people for their tsar and tsarina were Batiushka (Little Father) and Matushka (Little Mother),

Did you read to much of George Orwell?

Batiushka and Matushka are in the same relation with batia and mat' as Daddy and Mommy are with Dad and Mom. Father and Mother do not have similar forms. Therefore the best translation of Batiushka and Matushka is father and mother. At least this does not look idiotic.

BTW, the last matushka spoke Russian with an accent. So, perhaps, Mutter would have been more appropriate. Before that batyushka Pyotr I abolished Patriarchy and matushka (mutter) Ekaterina II paticipated in the plot to kill batyushka Pyotr III.

Kosmodemyansky family name was constructed by joining the names of Saints Cosmas and Damian (Kosma and Demyan in Russian). Kosmodemyansky were priests of Russian Orthodox Church since 17th century. Zoya's grandfather Saint Pyotr1 Kosmodemyansky was murdered in 1918 by militant godless for his opposition to blasphemy. There had been rumors that before his martyrdom he spoke of coming of two angels, who will try to set people in the right way, but in vain.

Zoya2 was born in 1923 in the village of Osinovy Guy3, not far from the city of Tambov. Her father, Anatoly Kosmodemyansky, studied in a theological seminary, but did not graduate. He later worked as a librarian. Her mother, Lyubov Kosmodemyanskaya (maiden name Churikova), was a school teacher. In 1925 Zoya's brother Alexander was born. Like his sister, he was destined to become Hero of Soviet Union, and, like Zoya, posthumously. In 1929 the family moved to Siberia for fear of persecution. In 1930 they moved to Moscow.

it is noted even among the murder squad that upon realization of what was happening members of the Royal Family crossed themselves

Thats amazing. I cllimbed mt. Whitney in January and on the few feet wide path there was a 20 feet long part covered by snow which layed at a 45 degree angle. The pass was bound by a wall and a two hundred feet vertical fall. I crossed myself before crossing the dangerous place. If I fell, would I become eligible for canonization?

Kosmodemyansky family name was constructed by joining the names of Saints Cosmas and Damian (Kosma and Demyan in Russian). Kosmodemyansky were priests of Russian Orthodox Church since 17th century. Zoya's grandfather Saint Pyotr1 Kosmodemyansky was murdered in 1918 by militant godless for his opposition to blasphemy. There had been rumors that before his martyrdom he spoke of coming of two angels, who will try to set people in the right way, but in vain.

Zoya2 was born in 1923 in the village of Osinovy Guy3, not far from the city of Tambov. Her father, Anatoly Kosmodemyansky, studied in a theological seminary, but did not graduate. He later worked as a librarian. Her mother, Lyubov Kosmodemyanskaya (maiden name Churikova), was a school teacher. In 1925 Zoya's brother Alexander was born. Like his sister, he was destined to become Hero of Soviet Union, and, like Zoya, posthumously. In 1929 the family moved to Siberia for fear of persecution. In 1930 they moved to Moscow.

it is noted even among the murder squad that upon realization of what was happening members of the Royal Family crossed themselves

Thats amazing. I cllimbed mt. Whitney in January and on the few feet wide path there was a 20 feet long part covered by snow which layed at a 45 degree angle. The pass was bound by a wall and a two hundred feet vertical fall. I crossed myself before crossing the dangerous place. If I fell, would I become eligible for canonization?

Probably not.

I leave it to you to ponder why not.

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Yes, Snake Oil Salesmen have been around since the Serpent, in all forms and guises. Like chavinism mistaken for patriotism.

« Last Edit: March 15, 2009, 01:58:28 AM by ialmisry »

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I'm scanning through the material you linked and I don't see anything that explicitly says that she was an atheist. Given the loosening on religious persecution during WWII, it is possible that she could have had some sort of religious belief and not seen it as being inconsistent with defending the Soviet State. Of course, I think canonising her is simply absurd, but I don't know if it is appropriate to call her an atheist without explicit evidence.

I'm scanning through the material you linked and I don't see anything that explicitly says that she was an atheist. Given the loosening on religious persecution during WWII, it is possible that she could have had some sort of religious belief and not seen it as being inconsistent with defending the Soviet State. Of course, I think canonising her is simply absurd, but I don't know if it is appropriate to call her an atheist without explicit evidence.

I"m going by their avoidance of answering the question "was she Orthodox/a believer?" by the principle qui tacit consentit, that she was not.

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I'm scanning through the material you linked and I don't see anything that explicitly says that she was an atheist. Given the loosening on religious persecution during WWII, it is possible that she could have had some sort of religious belief and not seen it as being inconsistent with defending the Soviet State. Of course, I think canonising her is simply absurd, but I don't know if it is appropriate to call her an atheist without explicit evidence.

I"m going by their avoidance of answering the question "was she Orthodox/a believer?" by the principle qui tacit consentit, that she was not.

Sorry, but that is hardly enough evidence to say with any degree of certainty that should wasn't a believer. All you are doing is showing your bias against anything to do with the Soviet Union, and your willingness to libel someone without any concrete evidence.

I'm scanning through the material you linked and I don't see anything that explicitly says that she was an atheist. Given the loosening on religious persecution during WWII, it is possible that she could have had some sort of religious belief and not seen it as being inconsistent with defending the Soviet State. Of course, I think canonising her is simply absurd, but I don't know if it is appropriate to call her an atheist without explicit evidence.

I"m going by their avoidance of answering the question "was she Orthodox/a believer?" by the principle qui tacit consentit, that she was not.

Sorry, but that is hardly enough evidence to say with any degree of certainty that should wasn't a believer.

The OP asks "Should Kosmodemyanskaya become Saint Zoya?" Therefore it is his burden to provide the evidence of her faith, not mine.

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All you are doing is showing your bias against anything to do with the Soviet Union,

Not true, I love Aleksandr Isayevich Solzhenitsyn.

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and your willingness to libel someone without any concrete evidence.

Just going by what her hagiographer has offered us.

« Last Edit: March 15, 2009, 06:47:51 PM by ialmisry »

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The OP asks "Should Kosmodemyanskaya become Saint Zoya?" Therefore it is his burden to provide the evidence of her faith, not mine.

Whether Zoya ought to be considered a saint is an entirely separate matter. I think it is pretty obvious to nearly everyone here that this is not being seriously considered by the Russian Orthodox Church. I see only a single post call for her canonisation. It's a dead issue. On the other hand to publicly proclaim she was an atheist with no evidence is libel.

The OP asks "Should Kosmodemyanskaya become Saint Zoya?" Therefore it is his burden to provide the evidence of her faith, not mine.

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and your willingness to libel someone without any concrete evidence.

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Just going by what her hagiographer has offered us.

My thoughts exactly. And the sources Simkins has provided from his own website do not mention anything at all about her living in, or dying for, the Orthodox faith. Or Christ. Or God.

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On the other hand to publicly proclaim she was an atheist with no evidence is libel.

The accounts of Zoya's life supplied by her ardent supporters make no mention at all of any faith or otherwise. One would think that they would, especially when petitioning the Patriarchate for her sainthood. Ask yourself (or, better still, ask Simkins and his ilk) why such a detail is notably absent from the written record they have provided.

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I didn't realize that people got to "choose" whom they wanted to see canonized.

Aren't there proper protocols that need to be adhered to? Isn't there something about the body being incorruptible and miracles that occur?

Has any of this come to pass?

I think not.

The only One who gets to decide/judge whether or not a person is a "saint" is God Himself...and through His grace are we given the knowledge to recognize those individuals as such.

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Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

The accounts of Zoya's life supplied by her ardent supporters make no mention at all of any faith or otherwise. One would think that they would, especially when petitioning the Patriarchate for her sainthood. Ask yourself (or, better still, ask Simkins and his ilk) why such a detail is notably absent from the written record they have provided.

Their silence is deafening.

Perhaps it can become muting too.

« Last Edit: March 16, 2009, 10:17:38 AM by ialmisry »

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Another fascinating example of apostolic succession is that of the Church of Smyrna - fascinating because we not only have the succession right back to Saint Polycarp of Smyrna (martyred for Christ) who was appointed as bishop of Smyrna by Saint John the Evangelist but also because it is a concrete example of New Testament prophecy which is still being fulfilled in our own day!!

You remember what the Spirit said to the Church of Smyrna:

"To the angel of the church in Smyrna write:

"These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again. I know your afflictions and your poverty-yet you are rich! I know the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death. ~Revelation 2:8-11

The Church of Smyrna (now modern Izmir in Turkey) still exists. God is true to His word.

In 1922 a great persecution fell upon Smyrna as the Spirit foretold in Revelation. The Turks killed and martyred nearly all the Christians of Smyrna, burning them and drowning them.

It was shameful that there were American naval ships so close to the shore that they could smell the burning flesh and hear the screams, but they refused to pick up the Christians who tried to escape in small boats. They did not want to offend the Turkish Government.

The Orthodox bishop of Smyrna, Bishop Chrysostom, was killed too..

"On 9 September 1922 crowds were rushing into the cathedral for shelter when Chrysostomos, pale from fasting and lack of sleep, led his last prayer. The Divine Liturgy ended as Turkish police came to the church and led Chrysostomos away. The Turkish General Nouredin Pasha, known as the "butcher of Ionia", first spat on the Metropolitan and informed him that a tribunal in Angora (now Ankara) had already condemned him to death. A mob fell upon Chrysostomos and tore out his eyes. Bleeding profusely, he was dragged through the streets by his beard. He was beaten and kicked and parts of his body were cut off. All the while Chrysostomos, his face covered with blood, prayed: "Holy Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." Every now and then, when he had the strength, he would raise his hand and bless his persecutors; a Turk, realizing what the Metropolitan was doing, cut off his hand with a sword. Metropolitan Chrysostomos was then hacked to pieces by the angry mob."

The mind boggles at the awfulness of it all but roughly 100,000 Orthodox Christians were killed in Smyrna in September 1922.

And yet, glory to God, the Church of Smyrna still survives today. The church of Saint Polycarp is still open and the Christians are still there worshipping God. God has been true to His word about Smyrna for 2000 years.

Now, THIS is an example of dying for one's Faith!

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Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

The OP asks "Should Kosmodemyanskaya become Saint Zoya?" Therefore it is his burden to provide the evidence of her faith, not mine.

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and your willingness to libel someone without any concrete evidence.

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Just going by what her hagiographer has offered us.

My thoughts exactly. And the sources Simkins has provided from his own website do not mention anything at all about her living in, or dying for, the Orthodox faith. Or Christ. Or God.

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On the other hand to publicly proclaim she was an atheist with no evidence is libel.

The accounts of Zoya's life supplied by her ardent supporters make no mention at all of any faith or otherwise. One would think that they would, especially when petitioning the Patriarchate for her sainthood. Ask yourself (or, better still, ask Simkins and his ilk) why such a detail is notably absent from the written record they have provided.

Again, I agree that she should not be a saint as this is clearly a political stunt. The most that can be said with any certainty is that it is likely she was not a believer. Given the time period, one must allow for uncertainty as baptismal records were often not kept for obvious reason. This was also the time period in the USSR when there was a relaxation on laws against Orthodoxy and Islam. The observation that there was nothing in her life that indicated any connection to the Orthodox Church ought to be enough, IMO. Also demeaning her death as a martyrdom for Stalin is a bit harsh. What should Soviet citizens have done during the War effort - welcomed the Nazis so that they could later be killed as Slavic Untermenschen?

demeaning her death as a martyrdom for Stalin is a bit harsh. What should Soviet citizens have done during the War effort - welcomed the Nazis so that they could later be killed as Slavic Untermenschen?

Well, some joined a "third force," like the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (Українська Повстанська Армія, УПА, UPA). The UPA was a colossal force, at the height of its history (early 1944) having in its ranks well over 200,000 men and women - maybe the biggest guerilla force in all of the European history. It fought against Hitler and against Stalin, not distinguishing between the two monsters-enemies, treating them and their armies as occupiers, an obstacle on Ukraine's path to liberty and prosperity.

BTW, a famous Ukrainian film director, Oleksandr Dovzhenko, was shocked when fighters from a pro-Soviet partisan detachment (the Kovpak brigade) shared with him how they treated a captured UPA fighter. They said, laughing, "look, we chained him to a stake and made fire underneath him... and he was already burning, the skin, the fat and all... and he was still shouting, 'Long live Ukraine!' What fool..."

As a Ukrainian, I have a tremendous respect, reverence for heroes like that burned UPA fighter, but I am not campaigning about their canonization...

Although miracles and incorrupt relics are nice, they are not required. Baptism however is, and I don't see any evidence of it here being offered.

Technically, not even baptism is required for glorification as a saint. For instance, the pagan soldier Aglaius who swam out into the frigid water to die as one of the 40 Holy Martyrs of Sebaste after one of the Christians suffering execution apostatized by swimming to shore.

Alexy made it his personal mission to identify the "new martyrs and confessors"—the victims of communist persecution who, in the eyes of the church, died for their Christian faith. He set aside the fourth Saturday after Easter for a special service to commemorate at least 20,000 "enemies of the Soviet state" who, at the height of the Great Purge of 1937-38, were shot and buried in mass graves just south of Moscow.

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Yes, Snake Oil Salesmen have been around since the Serpent, in all forms and guises. Like chavinism mistaken for patriotism.

Chauvin, for your information, was Napoleon's soldier. So Napoleon with a gang of his chauvinists invaded Russia in 1812. But the chauvinists had to run all the way back to Paris.

I'm well aware of that. For one thing, I've actually read "War and Peace."

Btw, what you think of Marx? Lenin?

« Last Edit: March 17, 2009, 11:31:27 AM by ialmisry »

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Marx: an unrealistic seeker of attention. However, he opposed the death penalty. His evaluation of problems of the society in his period of time included some valid points, but recommendations were in vast majority harmful.

As for the original question, I am another one to vote "absolutely not". A possible Orthodox background of her ancestors can not be a reason for her canonization.

Furthermore, Zoya violated orders and did not return to the base of rebels and by doing so, she endangered others. She could be easily court marshaled and if she would eventually returned. And in this particular case, that would be really deserved. Furthermore, NKVD's attitudes became famous for their horrors. NKVD always suspected collaboration with enemies. Instead of all countries, even the most heroic POWs were often treated as potential traitors, in many cases they were presumed guilty until proved innocent. Let alone someone, who refused to return to the base in woods.

Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya's last words were: "Stalin will come!" Also, back in late 1980s Moscow-based newspaper Argumenty i fakty (Arguments and Facts) presented allegations about her treatment in a mental hospital prior to World War II.

As it has been stated by others in this thread, there is no evidence neither of her saintly life, nor of her martyrdom for Christ.

With all due respect to the soldiers who bravely fought against the German Wermacht near Moscow in November-December 1941, the German retreat was hardly a miracle. The Wermacht was completely unprepared to fight in winter, at temperatures below -20 degrees Celcius. They had no winter clothes, and their engines froze, making their armored vehicles useless. The reasons for this strange lack of preparation were very complex, but I might only mention one factor: the German strategists planned to capture Kyiv (a.k.a. Kiev) "on the march," not later than by mid-July of 1941 (Zhytomyr was captured in early July), while in fact Kyiv resisted till September 6 and swallowed a huge chunk of the German resources.

Also, your statement that the Germans "ran all the way to Berlin" may create an impression that they retreated from Moscow all the way to Berlin in a short time. In fact, in December 1941, they retreated merely to the eastern Ukrainian border, to the Mykhailivs'kyj hamlet - Bakhmach - Konotop line. In late winter and early spring 1942, the Soviet Army made three attempts to develop its offensive toward Kharkiv, and each time it was defeated, with an immense slaughter of hundreds of thousands of its soldiers by the Germans. In spring 1942, the Soviet Army also made an attempt to take the Crimea, and its operation, led by infamous Mekhlis (about whom Stalin said, "for this purpose, we don't need an intelligent man, let's have Mekhlis do it"), resulted in the waste of hundreds of thousands on the Soviet soldiers' lives, and no success whatsoever.

The defeat of the Wermacht in 1943-1945 was a combined effort of the Allied Forces - not any miracle. Plus, there was a colossal effort of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army, whose role in WWII still remains to be fully appreciated.

The defeat of the Wermacht in 1943-1945 was a combined effort of the Allied Forces - not any miracle. Plus, there was a colossal effort of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army, whose role in WWII still remains to be fully appreciated.

Why then Allied forces (including Ukrainians) can't do much in Iraq for so long?

I can give consideration to David Irving's statement that fighting Germany was not in the interest of the British Empire. Indeed Britain lost her empire as a result of the war. Also three sisters of Prince Phillip (the husband of the British Queen, who converted from Orthodox to Anglican to marry her) were married to gauleiters and SS generals and spent the war in Germany. But to say that anyone but Russians played any major part in defeat of Germany is a lie.

But to say that anyone but Russians played any major part in defeat of Germany is a lie.

Can you prove this?

In his book "America's retreat from victory" Senator McCarthy wrote that with German defeat at Stalingrad the WWII had ended and WWIII started. All American effort in the war was to save Western Europe from Communism.

As is well known she did not endenger anyone, did not give any information and took all torture herself.

Initially, Zoya ignored the orders and did not return to the base. Then she was captured. Moreover, from a military point of view, instead of providing attacks at Nazi soldiers, making explosions, etc., Zoya just kept setting homes of local Russian peasants in fire. Yes, Nazis were staying in those homes. But Nazis could just run away, however local residents were loosing all their property in a winter time. Who could assist these poor farmers, victims of arsons, in the midst of cold Russian winter? Does this behavior come anywhere close to the actions of the Saint?

But to say that anyone but Russians played any major part in defeat of Germany is a lie.

No, it is true. As Heorhij indicated, it was a combined effort of Allied Forces. More then obvious. Everyone played a major role. Every soldier deserved a lot of respect. For the record, Soviet Army was extremely multinational. As a matter of fact, some Russians were fighting against Nazis in other armies including Ukrainian Insurgent Army.

But to say that anyone but Russians played any major part in defeat of Germany is a lie.

Can you prove this?

In his book "America's retreat from victory" Senator McCarthy wrote that with German defeat at Stalingrad the WWII had ended and WWIII started. All American effort in the war was to save Western Europe from Communism.

That doesn't prove anything. Can you give us the context for Senator McCarthy's opinion? You do realize also that this was just one man's opinion, regardless of how much of an authority he may have been? Opinions don't prove anything; only facts do.

Are you also not aware that the Allies forced Germany to fight World War II on two fronts: Russia to the east and the U.S. led forces to the west? Only Russian nationalism would blind someone to the fact that the U.S. and Great Britain also played a major role in the defeat of Nazi Germany. If not for the Allied assault on Germany's western front, Hitler would have been able to commit much more of his armed might to his invasion of Soviet Russia.

I think you're also confusing World War II with the Cold War that followed. During WWII, the U.S., Great Britain, and the Soviet Union were actually allies. Only after the war ended in 1945 did the USSR and her Western allies become estranged, thus starting the Cold War that served as the context for most of McCarthy's political career.

Yes, Nazis were staying in those homes. But Nazis could just run away, however local residents were loosing all their property in a winter time. Who could assist these poor farmers, victims of arsons, in the midst of cold Russian winter? Does this behavior come anywhere close to the actions of the Saint?

The Germans were also losing housing in winter what reduced their ability to fight. The Germans wanted to completeley destroy Russian state so the Russian government had no choice. In Poland the Germans exterminated almost all of the ruling class ( Szlachta ). I heard that only 3% left. Not sure of the number, but certainly Germans killed order of magnitude more Szlachta than were killed in Katyn (about which there is so much talk). There was also a systematic campaign to exterminate Polish intelligentsia. The same would happen in Russia. These villagers whome you pretend to represent loved Zoya very much and the women were howling when Zoya was exhumed and taken for cremation.

According to Argumenty i fakty, Ms. Kosmodemyanskaya had been registered as a person with psychiatric problems in one of the mental institutions. It has been a general practice to do so in USSR.

If it was indeed so she would have been never accepted into partisan unit.

This is a part of general de-heroization campaign performed by the people who consider cowardice a virtue and courage a vice. Any heroic person is a reproach to such folks, while all honors they give to successful swindlers. I recall they were getting at Chkalov as well. De-heroization campaign was conducted in America too where people like Charles Lindbergh were defamed. The defamation of Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya has nothing to do with anti-communism. It is more along Haendler-Helden lines.

This is a part of general de-heroization campaign performed by the people who consider cowardice a virtue and courage a vice. Any heroic person is a reproach to such folks, while all honors they give to successful swindlers. I recall they were getting at Chkalov as well. De-heroization campaign was conducted in America too where people like Charles Lindbergh were defamed. The defamation of Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya has nothing to do with anti-communism. It is more along Haendler-Helden lines.

Call her a war hero if you want. She may very well deserve the honor, and many times over. That's not the ultimate thrust of your arguments here, though, and it's not to her glorification as a war hero that many here have voiced their opposition. You have asked if Kosmodemyanskaya should be glorified as a saint in the Orthodox Church, and you have almost demanded that she be given this honor. In light of this, I say that her status as a war hero means absolutely nothing if she did not die specifically to bear witness to her Orthodox faith in Jesus Christ, for THIS, and nothing else, is what it truly means to be a martyr.

You have asked if Kosmodemyanskaya should be glorified as a saint in the Orthodox Church, and you have almost demanded that she be given this honor. In light of this, I say that her status as a war hero means absolutely nothing if she did not die specifically to bear witness to her Orthodox faith in Jesus Christ, for THIS, and nothing else, is what it truly means to be a martyr.

How very interesting. Show us evidence that the Orthodox Church has ever regarded cremation as an acceptable means of treating the body of one who has died. If Zoya was indeed cremated, then this is another clue that she was not Orthodox.

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How very interesting. Show us evidence that the Orthodox Church has ever regarded cremation as an acceptable means of treating the body of one who has died. If Zoya was indeed cremated, then this is another clue that she was not Orthodox.

She was indeed cremated before being burried at Novodevichie. This is according to memoirs of Klavdia Miloradova, who took part in the procedure. Cremation is of minor concern here, because after that she was burried under a masonic star. But please explain me why you so strongly oppose cremation when, according to your post in another thread, usury is fine with you when not too excessive?

How very interesting. Show us evidence that the Orthodox Church has ever regarded cremation as an acceptable means of treating the body of one who has died. If Zoya was indeed cremated, then this is another clue that she was not Orthodox.

She was indeed cremated before being burried at Novodevichie. This is according to memoirs of Klavdia Miloradova, who took part in the procedure. Cremation is of minor concern here, because after that she was burried under a masonic star. But please explain me why you so strongly oppose cremation when, according to your post in another thread, usury is fine with you when not too excessive?

Is your complain based on the Gospel or Das Kapital?

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I can give consideration to David Irving's statement that fighting Germany was not in the interest of the British Empire. Indeed Britain lost her empire as a result of the war. Also three sisters of Prince Phillip (the husband of the British Queen, who converted from Orthodox to Anglican to marry her) were married to gauleiters and SS generals and spent the war in Germany. But to say that anyone but Russians played any major part in defeat of Germany is a lie.

Oh, no, that's not a lie. Regardless of whom the British royalty married, the British, Canadian, Australian, and U.S. troops fought very bravely and made their contribution to the final defeat of Germany in 1945. The success of the Soviet Army at Stalingrad would hardly be possible without the Allies capturing Malta, building an air base there and starting the heavy bombardment of strategic targets in Germany and Austria in late 1942. The Allies also took on themselves a huge share of the German military force at El Alamein in northern Africa, further enabling the victory at Stalingrad. They also took Sicily and began operations in Southern Italy in summer 1943, thus helping the Soviet army to gain victory at Kursk. Some of the most brutal fighting of the entire WWII took place there, in Italy. One should not look at military history from just one, isolationist point of view. WWII was indeed a "world" war, a lot of things that happened during it were very seriously influenced by other things taking place in other parts of the globe.

Again, I am not dismissing the role of the Soviet Army in the battles against Hitler. My grandfather, and the two siblings of my grandmother (her older brother and her sister), and my grandmother's brother's wife (a military doctor) fought in its ranks all the way from June 1941 till May 1945. They did a wonderful, holy thing, and covered themselves with glory. Yet, one should not re-write history and claim that ONLY the Soviet Army or ONLY the U.S. or whoever did the whole thing.

You are most welcome, brother. I wish someone would translate this book by Vladimir Soloukhin into English. It is called "In the Light of Day," and it is an attempt to shed some light on who Lenin really was. The thing is, Lenin's image was mythologized, embellished not only by the Soviets but also by many sympathizers of the "left idea" as well of the "Holy Mother Russia idea" in the West. Soloukhin analyzes a lot of archive materials and shows that Lenin was indeed a monster, a biological degenerate (his father is very likely to be simultaneously a son and a brother of Lenin's paternal grandmother), a deeply disturbed and, very likely, demonically possessed creature of the abyss. He is directly guilty in the slaughter of millions of people during the Red Terror, the Civil War, and the infamous "expropriation of treasures of the Church" in 1921-22. During his rule and under his direct supervision, Russia forever lost its entire nobility, intelligentsia, the merchant class, and most of its clergy and productive peasantry. And this devil's mummy still lies in its pagan "mausoleum" right next to the Kremlin wall on the Red Square.

Yes there is something special about her body two month after her death

Simkins, you are suggesting that Zoya's body is "incorrupt", and therefore further "proof" that she is a "saint". Have you forgotten the severity of the winter that year? The same "General Winter" which decimated the retreating Nazi troops? Not much chance of decomposition. Your defence of Zoya is getting increasingly sillier.

« Last Edit: March 18, 2009, 05:56:24 PM by LBK »

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The Germans were also losing housing in winter what reduced their ability to fight. The Germans wanted to completeley destroy Russian state so the Russian government had no choice. In Poland the Germans exterminated almost all of the ruling class ( Szlachta ). I heard that only 3% left. Not sure of the number, but certainly Germans killed order of magnitude more Szlachta than were killed in Katyn (about which there is so much talk). There was also a systematic campaign to exterminate Polish intelligentsia. The same would happen in Russia. These villagers whome you pretend to represent loved Zoya very much and the women were howling when Zoya was exhumed and taken for cremation.

Yes there is something special about her body two month after her death

Simkins, you are suggesting that Zoya's body is "incorrupt", and therefore further "proof" that she is a "saint". Have you forgotten the severity of the winter that year? The same "General Winter" which decimated the retreating Nazi troops? Not much chance of decomposition. Your defence of Zoya is getting increasingly sillier.

There is much more in Zoya's body than the lack of decay. The look of her face.

In his idiotic book Dostoevsky discussed the painting of dead Christ by Hans Holbein (can see it here: http://nearyou.ru/holbein/21body.html ). Prince Myshkin (idiot) said that people can lose their faith after looking at such a painting. From another hand side this is a realistic painting of a man who died after being tortured. After I found the picture of Zoya that I posted earlier in this thread I realized that Christ did not look like Holbein's blasphemy. He must have looked like his bride Zoya. Otherwise indeed Christ's pupils would have lost their faith.

You call me silly but your arguments have nothing to do with religion and look more like accounting. Those who you suggest as saints instead of Zoya do not inspire. There is no passion in them. You know how Mel Gibson' film was titled? "The passion of the Christ". There was a long series of passions before that. "Johannes Passion" by J.C. Bach is probably the most famous.I think that the words "auch in der grössten Niedrigkeit verherrlich worden bist" (triumph in the deapest humiliation) are about Zoya as well

The Germans look so sour in this picture because of the cold you suggest?

The words "conquered death by death" (смертию смерть поправ) from Pravoslavny Easter service can also be spoken about Zoya.

Yes there is something special about her body two month after her death

Simkins, you are suggesting that Zoya's body is "incorrupt", and therefore further "proof" that she is a "saint". Have you forgotten the severity of the winter that year? The same "General Winter" which decimated the retreating Nazi troops? Not much chance of decomposition. Your defence of Zoya is getting increasingly sillier.

There is much more in Zoya's body than the lack of decay. The look of her face.

In his idiotic book Dostoevsky discussed the painting of dead Christ by Hans Holbein (can see it here: http://nearyou.ru/holbein/21body.html ). Prince Myshkin (idiot) said that people can lose their faith after looking at such a painting. From another hand side this is a realistic painting of a man who died after being tortured. After I found the picture of Zoya that I posted earlier in this thread I realized that Christ did not look like Holbein's blasphemy. He must have looked like his bride Zoya.

One, it's "His."

Two, you get on saying His bride, yet we haven't seen any evidence of a marriage.

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Otherwise indeed Christ's pupils would have lost their faith.

You call me silly but your arguments have nothing to do with religion and look more like accounting. Those who you suggest as saints instead of Zoya do not inspire. There is no passion in them. You know how Mel Gibson' film was titled? "The passion of the Christ". There was a long series of passions before that. "Johannes Passion" by J.C. Bach is probably the most famous.I think that the words "auch in der grössten Niedrigkeit verherrlich worden bist" (triumph in the deapest humiliation) are about Zoya as well

The Germans look so sour in this picture because of the cold you suggest?

The words "conquered death by death" (смертию смерть поправ) from Pravoslavny Easter service can also be spoken about Zoya.

She's dead.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

The Germans look so sour in this picture because of the cold you suggest?

The words "conquered death by death" (смертию смерть поправ) from Pravoslavny Easter service can also be spoken about Zoya.

The Germans are likely exhausted, hungry, cold, stressed, etc. from the war they are fighting in, did you really expect them to be smiling and skipping to the gallows with her?

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As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.-- Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS

How very interesting. Show us evidence that the Orthodox Church has ever regarded cremation as an acceptable means of treating the body of one who has died. If Zoya was indeed cremated, then this is another clue that she was not Orthodox.

She was indeed cremated before being burried at Novodevichie. This is according to memoirs of Klavdia Miloradova, who took part in the procedure. Cremation is of minor concern here, because after that she was burried under a masonic star. But please explain me why you so strongly oppose cremation when, according to your post in another thread, usury is fine with you when not too excessive?

You know how Mel Gibson' film was titled? "The passion of the Christ". There was a long series of passions before that. "Johannes Passion" by J.C. Bach is probably the most famous.I think that the words "auch in der grössten Niedrigkeit verherrlich worden bist" (triumph in the deapest humiliation) are about Zoya as well

Two, you get on saying His bride, yet we haven't seen any evidence of a marriage.

Because it did not yet happened.

Every Pravoslavny knows that the second coming of Christ will be in Russia. Few, however, know that He will come not alone, but with His bride Zoya. They will come to celebrate their marriage. However, this will only happen after Russian Pravoslavnaya Church will canonize Zoya.

Two, you get on saying His bride, yet we haven't seen any evidence of a marriage.

Because it did not yet happened.

Every Pravoslavny knows that the second coming of Christ will be in Russia. Few, however, know that He will come not alone, but with His bride Zoya. They will come to celebrate their marriage. However, this will only happen after Russian Pravoslavnaya Church will canonize Zoya.

Dostoevsky said that God is a sintetic personality of the whole people.

Where did he say this?

Besy (Devils/The possesed)

"The object of every national movement, in every people and at every period of its existence is only the seeking for its god, who must be its own god, and the faith in Him as the only true one. God is the synthetic personality of the whole people, taken from its beginning to its end. It has never happened that all, or even many, peoples have had one common, god, but each has always had its own. It's a sign of the decay of nations when they begin to have gods in common. When gods begin to be common to several nations the gods are dying and the faith in them, together with the nations themselves. The stronger a people the more individual their God."

So, being Russian automatically makes one a Christian. Does that then make Stalin a Christian? After all, he was Russian.

Stalin (Jugashvilli) was a Georgian. He was born in Gori, where there is still a monument to him. You have heard the city name in reports on Ossetia war, but they did not tell Stalin was born there, though it is of much interest to a lay listener. He was Orthodox Christian and studied in a theological seminary, but did not graduate. Stalin restored the office of Partiarch, which was abolished by Pyotr I.

Every Pravoslavny knows that the second coming of Christ will be in Russia. Few, however, know that He will come not alone, but with His bride Zoya. They will come to celebrate their marriage. However, this will only happen after Russian Pravoslavnaya Church will canonize Zoya.

Thank you for revealing your true colors with this statement. Heresy is too kind a word for such blasphemy as this.

Simkins, your posts are getting so ridiculous and out of touch with reality, I'm beginning to enjoy them for their comedy value. I haven't had such a good laugh for ages!

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Every Pravoslavny knows that the second coming of Christ will be in Russia. Few, however, know that He will come not alone, but with His bride Zoya. They will come to celebrate their marriage. However, this will only happen after Russian Pravoslavnaya Church will canonize Zoya.

And I'll bet you'll be the one conducting the marriage!

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Stalin restored the office of Partiarch, which was abolished by Pyotr I.

Too funny, too ridiculous for words.

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"The object of every national movement, in every people and at every period of its existence is only the seeking for its god, who must be its own god, and the faith in Him as the only true one. God is the synthetic personality of the whole people, taken from its beginning to its end. It has never happened that all, or even many, peoples have had one common, god, but each has always had its own. It's a sign of the decay of nations when they begin to have gods in common. When gods begin to be common to several nations the gods are dying and the faith in them, together with the nations themselves. The stronger a people the more individual their God."

I see. So the words of a fictional character in a Dostoyevsky novel have the same importance as those of the Fathers of the Orthodox Church. I must stop laughing, I'm making a mess of my computer screen.

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So you get your historical "facts" from the Russian version of YouTube! Gee, now THERE'S an authoritative source! I'm wondering if there really is a limit to how ridiculous your posts will get. Keep sending 'em, Simkins, laughter is the best medicine!

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Every Pravoslavny knows that the second coming of Christ will be in Russia. Few, however, know that He will come not alone, but with His bride Zoya. They will come to celebrate their marriage. However, this will only happen after Russian Pravoslavnaya Church will canonize Zoya.

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If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Every Pravoslavny knows that the second coming of Christ will be in Russia. Few, however, know that He will come not alone, but with His bride Zoya. They will come to celebrate their marriage. However, this will only happen after Russian Pravoslavnaya Church will canonize Zoya.

Yes, there is a lot of cockoo theories like this one out there. In Ukraine, some people say that "every Pravoslavny knows that Christ was an ethnic Ukrainian from Halychyna (Galitzia - a region in the western part of Ukraine)." Indeed, he was a Galilean, and the Galileans are of the same ethnic root as the Galatians, the Celts (Lat. Galli), and the Halychany (Galitzians). "Synthetic God of our people..."

("Remember, Lord Jesus Christ, our God, Your Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, which You have bought by Your precious Blood; confirm, strengthen and increase Her. Multiply, comfort and preserve Her invincible forever before the gates of hell. End dysharmony among the Churches. Quench the tumult of the heathens. Swiftly put down and root out the rebellion of all heresies and by the Power of Your Holy Spirit turn them to nothing.")

I called Nebelpfade a Herr because his nickname is German. Translates as "misty path" or something like that. He openly expressed his support for the killers of Zoya.

So, a simple, matter-of-fact explanation of why some German soldiers looked downcast in a picture is open support for someone's killers. Yeah, antiderivative, LBK, and ozgeorge are right. Arguing with you is becoming an exercise in silliness.

And I would be interested to see where I "openly expressed [my] support for the killers of Zoya". The Second World War was a dreadful time for Europe and the World, and terrible things occurred quite often, whether it be by German, or Russian, regular soldier or partisan. Soldiers were in a bloody business, fighting for their country, as were partisans. Both of which understood the danger of what they were doing and what could happen to them if they were captured. These soldiers have likely been away from their home, their families, their loved ones for months or years, have experienced the horrors of warfare, likely have gotten little sleep, their meals contained limited nutrition, morale was likely not at its highest, they were fighting in a climate they were not used to, etc, etc, etc. I'm sorry, but I wouldn't be smiling either in what appears to be a candid photograph. Plus, who are these soldiers? Simple guards, perhaps? Who knows, since you have not provided an unbiased context. But how could I forget, German soldiers and civilians were always treated so hospitably by Russian soldiers, with smiles on their faces no less...

I refuse to demonise a solider because he is German or because he appears in a photograph with a partisan that is to be executed, it goes against basic common sense.

« Last Edit: March 19, 2009, 05:46:17 PM by Nebelpfade »

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As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.-- Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS

I think most of us can agree Stalin didn't like the Orthodox Church very much. I think his ordering the execution of 50,000 priests provides good evidence of this.

It did happen under his rule. But he also permitted to elect Patriarch in 1943. Stalin also banned abortion and introduced a legal penalty for sodomy. Abortion was legalized by Kruschov. Yeltsin legalized sodomy.

I think most of us can agree Stalin didn't like the Orthodox Church very much. I think his ordering the execution of 50,000 priests provides good evidence of this.

It did happen under his rule. But he also permitted to elect Patriarch in 1943. Stalin also banned abortion and introduced a legal penalty for sodomy. Abortion was legalized by Kruschov. Yeltsin legalized sodomy.

This surprises you? The Stalinist regime viewed the Russian Orthodox Church as a tool, since Russians would fight for their identity (nationalism, religion, etc) rather than for the survival of Communism. Patriarch Sergius acted much differently than Saint Tikhon had when it came to dealing with the Communist government, and relations between the Church and the Government mimiced that.

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As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.-- Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS

how could I forget, German soldiers and civilians were always treated so hospitably by Russian soldiers, with smiles on their faces no less...

In 1944-48, tens of thousands of German POWs, most of them privates who had been forcefully drafted to the Wermacht, many of them just 18-19 years old, were worked and starved to death in my home city, Kyiv. They were rebuilding the central avenue of the city, Khreshchatyk, erecting typical "Socialist Realism" pompous, ornate 16-18-story buildings with sculptures of happy workers and peasants, and five-angled stars on top. Their food rations were one cup of "balanda" (diluted cabbage soup, almost water) per day and 50 grams of bread per day (and not every day). When the Superintendent in charge of the POWs, a Ukrainian general, complained to Moscow that the POWs are dying like flies, he was immediately demoted and sent to a remote town in Eastern Siberia, where he shortly died.

Less than 10% of the POWs who worked in Kyiv survived. The most cynical thing was that the German Army did not even demolish Kyiv - its central part was demolished by the Soviets immediately prior to their retreat from the city in early September 1941.

Yes, Nazis were staying in those homes. But Nazis could just run away, however local residents were loosing all their property in a winter time. Who could assist these poor farmers, victims of arsons, in the midst of cold Russian winter? Does this behavior come anywhere close to the actions of the Saint?

The Germans were also losing housing in winter what reduced their ability to fight. The Germans wanted to completeley destroy Russian state so the Russian government had no choice. In Poland the Germans exterminated almost all of the ruling class ( Szlachta ). I heard that only 3% left. Not sure of the number, but certainly Germans killed order of magnitude more Szlachta than were killed in Katyn (about which there is so much talk). There was also a systematic campaign to exterminate Polish intelligentsia. The same would happen in Russia. These villagers whome you pretend to represent loved Zoya very much and the women were howling when Zoya was exhumed and taken for cremation.

The terror of Nazis in Poland went beyond terrible. But the officers of both Armia Krajowa and Armia Lodowa, Polish partisan armies, could not even imagene to organize the destruction of homes of peaceful Polish farmers. As for Katyn, it is not "so much talk", it is commemoration of dead heroes, brutally killed by NKVD.

According to Argumenty i fakty, Ms. Kosmodemyanskaya had been registered as a person with psychiatric problems in one of the mental institutions. It has been a general practice to do so in USSR.

If it was indeed so she would have been never accepted into partisan unit.

Some teens joined the partisan units after falsifying thier age and pretending that they are older. Of course, this is a heroic desire and it is highly commendable. But such cases transpired, let alone the medical history.

Two, you get on saying His bride, yet we haven't seen any evidence of a marriage.

Because it did not yet happened.

Every Pravoslavny knows that the second coming of Christ will be in Russia. Few, however, know that He will come not alone, but with His bride Zoya. They will come to celebrate their marriage. However, this will only happen after Russian Pravoslavnaya Church will canonize Zoya.

The terror of Nazis in Poland went beyond terrible. But the officers of both Armia Krajowa and Armia Lodowa, Polish partisan armies, could not even imagene to organize the destruction of homes of peaceful Polish farmers.

Some teens joined the partisan units after falsifying thier age and pretending that they are older. Of course, this is a heroic desire and it is highly commendable. But such cases transpired, let alone the medical history.

Kosmodemyanskaya did not falsify any documents. What medical history are you talking about?

Translation: The commander made a decision to return. And then Zoya went against the commander's will: "Until the assignment is fulfilled, I will not return. I am going to Petrishchevo".

So she did not want to return because the assignment was not completed. Whats wrong with that?

I'll tell you what's wrong with that from my experience as a U.S. Marine. Obedience to lawful orders is the backbone of good order in any military organization. Going off and doing what you want because you "haven't accomplished your mission yet" does nothing but destroy this good order. Zoya didn't have the authority to say that she hadn't completed her assignment yet, for only her commanding officer could have made this decision. When the CO says you're done, YOU'RE DONE!

The terror of Nazis in Poland went beyond terrible. But the officers of both Armia Krajowa and Armia Lodowa, Polish partisan armies, could not even imagene to organize the destruction of homes of peaceful Polish farmers.

So Poles lost the war and very quickly. Didn't they?

Have you never heard of the Polish Underground and such events as the Warsaw Uprising? Or is this in vogue to deny in the neo-Soviet Union as is Katyn and the other crimes of Stalin?

Simkins, you are obviously fixated and obsessed by the idea that Zoya is a saint, as she gave her life heroically during war. Though you have not once answered any of our questions properly, but have chosen to go off on all sorts of tangents, and thus avoiding legitimate questions such as "did she die because she was defending the Orthodox faith", I send out one more challenge to you:

What is the glaring difference between the life and death of Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya, compared with, say, the life and death of Evgeniy Rodionov, the 19-year-old conscript who was sent to Chechnya in 1996?

We're eagerly awaiting your reply.

« Last Edit: March 20, 2009, 04:45:14 AM by LBK »

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

The Second World War was a dreadful time for Europe and the World, and terrible things occurred quite often, whether it be by German, or Russian, regular soldier or partisan. Soldiers were in a bloody business, fighting for their country, as were partisans.

I'll tell you what's wrong with that from my experience as a U.S. Marine. Obedience to lawful orders is the backbone of good order in any military organization. Going off and doing what you want because you "haven't accomplished your mission yet" does nothing but destroy this good order. Zoya didn't have the authority to say that she hadn't completed her assignment yet, for only her commanding officer could have made this decision. When the CO says you're done, YOU'RE DONE!

And I can tell you about something worse. Do you recall how British marines were taken prisoners by the Iranians? How did they explain that they did not offer any resistance to the Iranians? They said that they were afraid that if they do so they could get killed. Thats why the things in Iraq are so bad. No people like Zoya.

Rather than blast Freudians, Freemasons, Germans, Americans and whoever else, and defend the heretical theories like coming of Christ to Russia etc., better, brother, ponder on these words - not, mind you, of some Freemason or "liberal," but words of your compatriot, a Russian writer Vladimir Soloukhin:

Rather than blast Freudians, Freemasons, Germans, Americans and whoever else, and defend the heretical theories like coming of Christ to Russia etc., better, brother, ponder on these words - not, mind you, of some Freemason or "liberal," but words of your compatriot, a Russian writer Vladimir Soloukhin:

Good People,A couple of things.Firstly, we have a requirement on this forum that posts in other languages outside of the Other Language forums must be accompanied with an English translation.Secondly, this is not a news item now, but a debate, so I am moving it to Free For All (Religious Topics) to allow the debate to continue.Thirdly, tempers need to settle and some semblance of civility needs to start taking place on this thread, so I am temporarily locking it to allow people to calm down.WHILE IT IS LOCKED, DO NOT OPEN ANOTHER THREAD ON THIS TOPIC. ANYONE WHO DOES SO WILL BE PLACED ON POST MODERATION.

GeorgeGlobal Moderator.

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If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Good People,A couple of things.Firstly, we have a requirement on this forum that posts in other languages outside of the Other Language forums must be accompanied with an English translation.Secondly, this is not a news item now, but a debate, so I am moving it to Free For All (Religious Topics) to allow the debate to continue.Thirdly, tempers need to settle and some semblance of civility needs to start taking place on this thread, so I am temporarily locking it to allow people to calm down.WHILE IT IS LOCKED, DO NOT OPEN ANOTHER THREAD ON THIS TOPIC. ANYONE WHO DOES SO WILL BE PLACED ON POST MODERATION.

GeorgeGlobal Moderator.

This thead is now unlocked.Please keep the above in mind when posting.George

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If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Regardless of what an emigrant's words are worth of, what do you think of the words of Vladimir Soloukhin I quoted? He is certainly no emigrant... (For those who do not read Russian - I quoted a fragment from Soloukhin's book "In the Light of the Day," where he says that the execution of tens of millions of people in Russia by the Bolsheviks could not but damage severely Russia's genetic pool, which means that for at least several more decades there will be, in all probability, no real rebirth of the Russian nation's spirit and culture.)

Simkins, you are obviously fixated and obsessed by the idea that Zoya is a saint, as she gave her life heroically during war. Though you have not once answered any of our questions properly, but have chosen to go off on all sorts of tangents, and thus avoiding legitimate questions such as "did she die because she was defending the Orthodox faith", I send out one more challenge to you:

What is the glaring difference between the life and death of Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya, compared with, say, the life and death of Evgeniy Rodionov, the 19-year-old conscript who was sent to Chechnya in 1996?

We're eagerly awaiting your reply.

Now that this thread has been unlocked, what is your answer to this, Simkins?

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Orthodox is a mistranslation. (Она умерла за ортодоксальную веру? Конечно нет. Она умерла за православную.) Pravoslavny does not mean "orthodox". It means True Rite or True Beleive. Pravoslavie is the Russian Church of Truth. Zoya was always telling truth. She always defended truth. She died for Truth. It was Truth tortured and murdered at Russian Golgotha (Galgenhof) in Petryschevo. But Truth did not surrender. She qonquerred death by death. By doing this Zoya became one with Truth. As Pravoslavna church is also one with Truth, Zoya is one with Pravoslavna church. As such she is the Bride of Christ.

Orthodox is a mistranslation. (Она умерла за ортодоксальную веру? Конечно нет. Она умерла за православную.) Pravoslavny does not mean "orthodox". It means True Rite or True Beleive. Pravoslavie is the Russian Church of Truth. Zoya was always telling truth. She always defended truth. She died for Truth. It was Truth tortured and murdered at Russian Golgotha (Galgenhof) in Petryschevo. But Truth did not surrender. She qonquerred death by death. By doing this Zoya became one with Truth. As Pravoslavna church is also one with Truth, Zoya is one with Pravoslavna church. As such she is the Bride of Christ.

Maybe if you shared whatever you are on, it could help me pass my finals...

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"Christianity is not a philosophy, not a doctrine, but life." - Elder Sophrony (Sakharov)

Orthodox is a mistranslation. (Она умерла за ортодоксальную веру? Конечно нет. Она умерла за православную.) Pravoslavny does not mean "orthodox". It means True Rite or True Beleive. Pravoslavie is the Russian Church of Truth. Zoya was always telling truth. She always defended truth. She died for Truth. It was Truth tortured and murdered at Russian Golgotha (Galgenhof) in Petryschevo. But Truth did not surrender. She qonquerred death by death. By doing this Zoya became one with Truth. As Pravoslavna church is also one with Truth, Zoya is one with Pravoslavna church. As such she is the Bride of Christ.

Put down the funny smelling cigarette and back away slowly....

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Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. ~Frederick the Great

I wish someone would translate this book by Vladimir Soloukhin into English. It is called "In the Light of Day," and it is an attempt to shed some light on who Lenin really was. The thing is, Lenin's image was mythologized, embellished not only by the Soviets but also by many sympathizers of the "left idea" as well of the "Holy Mother Russia idea" in the West. Soloukhin analyzes a lot of archive materials and shows that Lenin was indeed a monster, a biological degenerate (his father is very likely to be simultaneously a son and a brother of Lenin's paternal grandmother), a deeply disturbed and, very likely, demonically possessed creature of the abyss. He is directly guilty in the slaughter of millions of people during the Red Terror, the Civil War, and the infamous "expropriation of treasures of the Church" in 1921-22. During his rule and under his direct supervision, Russia forever lost its entire nobility, intelligentsia, the merchant class, and most of its clergy and productive peasantry. And this devil's mummy still lies in its pagan "mausoleum" right next to the Kremlin wall on the Red Square.

The book is not worth translating, because Soloukhin does not have much talent as a writer. Nowadays there are numerous people in internet who write much, much better.

Note also that the same Soloukhin who "shed some light on who Lenin really was" some time ago in his speech, where he demanded to send Pasternak in excile for "Doctor Zhivago", spoke of "wise Mao". He also blamed Pasternak for not understanding revolution. He found particularly wicked a verse where Pasternack opposed Pharisaism.

Now, when it became safe Soloukhin wrote his own anti-Soviet book. But as long as all truth was already spoken he resorted to libels.

Soloukhin concluded his speech with a prophecy that Pasternak will be forgoten and nobody will mention him in the media "after some american millionair will get into a car crash". In reality Pasternak is well remembered.

Zoya was always telling truth. She always defended truth. She died for Truth. It was Truth tortured and murdered at Russian Golgotha (Galgenhof) in Petryschevo. But Truth did not surrender. She qonquerred death by death. By doing this Zoya became one with Truth. As Pravoslavna church is also one with Truth, Zoya is one with Pravoslavna church. As such she is the Bride of Christ.

This is complete blasphemy. Zoya's "truth" was the false, atheist "truth" of Soviet Russia, the atheist "truth" which sent countless Orthodox believers to the gulags, to the gallows, and to the firing squads because they were Orthodox believers. Many, many of these were later rightly proclaimed as saints for being steadfast in their Orthodox faith, against all that the Soviet regime could throw at them. St Benjamin of Petrograd, St Luke of Simferopol', St Michaela of Moscow, St Elizabeth the Grand Duchess, the list goes on. Do not insult their memory, nor the memory of those who may not have been proclaimed saints, but who suffered just as much at the hands of the Soviet regime. May I remind you that there are still many survivors of the Stalinism of the 1920s and 1930s who are still alive (I know at least a dozen personally), and whose stories of those times are still being told, and must be told.

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WHAT!!? Are you crazy? Starlight can't sit down with you via an internet connection. You're going to have to provide your sources here, online.

One way to do this is for him to sit down in a similar manner in his location and take a laptop with a webcam. I do the same. And we can talk. If he can't then, perhaps, the brave marine can take his place?

Zoya was always telling truth. She always defended truth. She died for Truth. It was Truth tortured and murdered at Russian Golgotha (Galgenhof) in Petryschevo. But Truth did not surrender. She qonquerred death by death. By doing this Zoya became one with Truth. As Pravoslavna church is also one with Truth, Zoya is one with Pravoslavna church. As such she is the Bride of Christ.

I vaguely recall Someone saying:"I am the Way, the Truth and the Life- no one comes to the Father but by Me."

I also vaguely recall someone asking:"Truth"- What is that?And not realizing the Truth was standing before him.

« Last Edit: March 24, 2009, 12:09:56 AM by ozgeorge »

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If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

One way to do this is for him to sit down in a similar manner in his location and take a laptop with a webcam. I do the same. And we can talk. If he can't then, perhaps, the brave marine can take his place?

What brave Marine?

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If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

One way to do this is for him to sit down in a similar manner in his location and take a laptop with a webcam. I do the same. And we can talk. If he can't then, perhaps, the brave marine can take his place?

What brave Marine?

I'm going to be thoroughly offended if she's talking about me.

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Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. ~Frederick the Great

Or is this in vogue to deny in the neo-Soviet Union as is Katyn and the other crimes of Stalin?

Please show me where I denied Katyn? The event was officially admitted by the Soviet government in late 1980s. So todays story is not about poor slaughtered Szlachta. It is about Brzezinski plan to divide Russia, which he described in his book "The Grand Chessboard."

WHAT!!? Are you crazy? Starlight can't sit down with you via an internet connection. You're going to have to provide your sources here, online.

One way to do this is for him to sit down in a similar manner in his location and take a laptop with a webcam. I do the same. And we can talk. If he can't then, perhaps, the brave marine can take his place?

That doesn't prove anything. Can you give us the context for Senator McCarthy's opinion? You do realize also that this was just one man's opinion, regardless of how much of an authority he may have been? Opinions don't prove anything; only facts do.

In the context of the story of George Catlett Marshall. You can read it yourself and check. It's well written, like Ann Coulter books.

Are you also not aware that the Allies forced Germany to fight World War II on two fronts: Russia to the east and the U.S. led forces to the west? Only Russian nationalism would blind someone to the fact that the U.S. and Great Britain also played a major role in the defeat of Nazi Germany.

Only russophobia can blind someone to the fact that Russia fought Germany alone during the hardest years 1941-1942. U.S. and British contribution was limited to bombing of Dresden and Morgenthau plan.

But to say that anyone but Russians played any major part in defeat of Germany is a lie.

Can you prove this?

In his book "America's retreat from victory" Senator McCarthy wrote that with German defeat at Stalingrad the WWII had ended and WWIII started. All American effort in the war was to save Western Europe from Communism.

That doesn't prove anything. Can you give us the context for Senator McCarthy's opinion? You do realize also that this was just one man's opinion, regardless of how much of an authority he may have been? Opinions don't prove anything; only facts do.

Are you also not aware that the Allies forced Germany to fight World War II on two fronts: Russia to the east and the U.S. led forces to the west? Only Russian nationalism would blind someone to the fact that the U.S. and Great Britain also played a major role in the defeat of Nazi Germany. If not for the Allied assault on Germany's western front, Hitler would have been able to commit much more of his armed might to his invasion of Soviet Russia.

I think you're also confusing World War II with the Cold War that followed. During WWII, the U.S., Great Britain, and the Soviet Union were actually allies. Only after the war ended in 1945 did the USSR and her Western allies become estranged, thus starting the Cold War that served as the context for most of McCarthy's political career.

As much as it pains me to say it, Sen. McCarthy was right. Stalingrad was seen as the turning point in WW2, proving that the Soviets would win, with or without the opening of the Western Front....

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"Christianity is not a philosophy, not a doctrine, but life." - Elder Sophrony (Sakharov)

That doesn't prove anything. Can you give us the context for Senator McCarthy's opinion? You do realize also that this was just one man's opinion, regardless of how much of an authority he may have been? Opinions don't prove anything; only facts do.

In the context of the story of George Catlett Marshall. You can read it yourself and check. It's well written, like Ann Coulter books.

Sorry, I spend so much time reading and posting on this forum that I have no time to read the story of George C. Marshall. You're going to have to share his story on this thread if you want me to read it. (IOW, I don't want to go to the effort to do what you're too lazy to do yourself.)

Are you also not aware that the Allies forced Germany to fight World War II on two fronts: Russia to the east and the U.S. led forces to the west? Only Russian nationalism would blind someone to the fact that the U.S. and Great Britain also played a major role in the defeat of Nazi Germany.

Only russophobia can blind someone to the fact that Russia fought Germany alone during the hardest years 1941-1942. U.S. and British contribution was limited to bombing of Dresden and Morgenthau plan.

So what? What the Soviet Union did to fight Germany during the early years of the war, though it probably did help soften Germany to the later years, didn't win the war all by itself. Otherwise, why did it take until 1945 for Germany to finally be subdued and forced to surrender?

But to say that anyone but Russians played any major part in defeat of Germany is a lie.

Can you prove this?

In his book "America's retreat from victory" Senator McCarthy wrote that with German defeat at Stalingrad the WWII had ended and WWIII started. All American effort in the war was to save Western Europe from Communism.

That doesn't prove anything. Can you give us the context for Senator McCarthy's opinion? You do realize also that this was just one man's opinion, regardless of how much of an authority he may have been? Opinions don't prove anything; only facts do.

Are you also not aware that the Allies forced Germany to fight World War II on two fronts: Russia to the east and the U.S. led forces to the west? Only Russian nationalism would blind someone to the fact that the U.S. and Great Britain also played a major role in the defeat of Nazi Germany. If not for the Allied assault on Germany's western front, Hitler would have been able to commit much more of his armed might to his invasion of Soviet Russia.

I think you're also confusing World War II with the Cold War that followed. During WWII, the U.S., Great Britain, and the Soviet Union were actually allies. Only after the war ended in 1945 did the USSR and her Western allies become estranged, thus starting the Cold War that served as the context for most of McCarthy's political career.

As much as it pains me to say it, Sen. McCarthy was right. Stalingrad was seen as the turning point in WW2, proving that the Soviets would win, with or without the opening of the Western Front....

Maybe so... Maybe so... I would still like Simkins to prove his claim that only Russia played an important role in the ultimate defeat of Germany in WWII, since his assertion has thus far shown a Russophile nationalism that should shade our view of his veneration and advocacy of "Saint" Zoya. Maybe Russia could have defeated Germany all by themselves, but they did not provide the only major contributions to the ultimate Allied victory.

Maybe so... Maybe so... I would still like Simkins to prove his claim that only Russia played an important role in the ultimate defeat of Germany in WWII, since his assertion has thus far shown a Russophile nationalism that should shade our view of his veneration and advocacy of "Saint" Zoya. Maybe Russia could have defeated Germany all by themselves, but they did not provide the only major contributions to the ultimate Allied victory.

This thread has been completely derailed into tangents which have little to do with the OP's original question, "should Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya be canonised?". Despite many attempts by various posters challenging Simkins to provide us with a cogent, proper argument supporting his position, he has not been forthcoming. Instead, he has either hidden behind the skirts of philosophical and historical tangents (and his grasp of history is sorely lacking!), or, blathered on like a lovestruck, drooling teenager about his "beloved" Zoya.

Worse, by his revisionist and blasphemous statements, he has shown not a shred of respect or reverence for genuine saints, nor for Christ, who alone "trampled down death by death", nor of those folks, living or dead, who suffered for the Orthodox faith under Stalinism.

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I wish someone would translate this book by Vladimir Soloukhin into English. It is called "In the Light of Day," and it is an attempt to shed some light on who Lenin really was. The thing is, Lenin's image was mythologized, embellished not only by the Soviets but also by many sympathizers of the "left idea" as well of the "Holy Mother Russia idea" in the West. Soloukhin analyzes a lot of archive materials and shows that Lenin was indeed a monster, a biological degenerate (his father is very likely to be simultaneously a son and a brother of Lenin's paternal grandmother), a deeply disturbed and, very likely, demonically possessed creature of the abyss. He is directly guilty in the slaughter of millions of people during the Red Terror, the Civil War, and the infamous "expropriation of treasures of the Church" in 1921-22. During his rule and under his direct supervision, Russia forever lost its entire nobility, intelligentsia, the merchant class, and most of its clergy and productive peasantry. And this devil's mummy still lies in its pagan "mausoleum" right next to the Kremlin wall on the Red Square.

The book is not worth translating, because Soloukhin does not have much talent as a writer. Nowadays there are numerous people in internet who write much, much better.

Note also that the same Soloukhin who "shed some light on who Lenin really was" some time ago in his speech, where he demanded to send Pasternak in excile for "Doctor Zhivago", spoke of "wise Mao". He also blamed Pasternak for not understanding revolution. He found particularly wicked a verse where Pasternack opposed Pharisaism.

Now, when it became safe Soloukhin wrote his own anti-Soviet book. But as long as all truth was already spoken he resorted to libels.

Soloukhin concluded his speech with a prophecy that Pasternak will be forgoten and nobody will mention him in the media "after some american millionair will get into a car crash". In reality Pasternak is well remembered.

I don't think so. I am not in a position to discuss the degree of his talent and I am not the one who has the right to judge his former mistakes. But the fact that many millions of people were annihilated by the Bolsheviks remains the fact, and Soloukhin is absolutely right to turn our attention to it. Everywhere on the territories of the former USSR, and especially where it reigned since the 1920-s, an enormous damage was done to the genetic makeup of the population. Talented landowners, smart traders, builders, creative, constructive, truly spiritual people were eliminated first. Their genes are gone. I think this should worry the young people in Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Georgia, central Asian republics. That's serious. Remembering this, one should, in my humble opinion, be especially cautious about new "trendy" claims like those made by these "Eurasians," "Nashi" (the Putinügend), etc. A slow, careful, cautious approach should prevail.

blathered on like a lovestruck, drooling teenager about his "beloved" Zoya.

I congratulate you on achieving truly Fraudian depth of penetration into the subconscious. I think you should get some reward from a Psychoanalytic masonic society. Perhaps, a red five-pointed star. You can attach it to your soutane and it will warm your heart with the fire from hell.

But, while my silly passion for my beloved Zoya is merely foolish and funny, your attitude towards Jesus, after given its proper Fraudian interpretation, can be considered something totally unacceptable.

blathered on like a lovestruck, drooling teenager about his "beloved" Zoya.

I congratulate you on achieving truly Fraudian depth of penetration into the subconscious. I think you should get some reward from a Psychoanalytic masonic society. Perhaps, a red five-pointed star. You can attach it to your soutane and it will warm your heart with the fire from hell.

But, while my silly passion for my beloved Zoya is merely foolish and funny, your attitude towards Jesus, after given its proper Fraudian interpretation, can be considered something totally unacceptable.

Can you get back on the topic of arguing why Zoya should be glorified and not sidetrack this thread yet again with unnecessary ad hominems?

blathered on like a lovestruck, drooling teenager about his "beloved" Zoya.

I congratulate you on achieving truly Fraudian depth of penetration into the subconscious. I think you should get some reward from a Psychoanalytic masonic society. Perhaps, a red five-pointed star. You can attach it to your soutane and it will warm your heart with the fire from hell.

But, while my silly passion for my beloved Zoya is merely foolish and funny, your attitude towards Jesus, after given its proper Fraudian interpretation, can be considered something totally unacceptable.

Can you get back on the topic of arguing why Zoya should be glorified and not sidetrack this thread yet again with unnecessary ad hominems?

Peter, can we honestly expect that this is possible with this man? After all, in his reply to me has twisted my words to make them mean the complete opposite of what they truly mean. Just as black is white, and just as night is day. I am far too old and ugly to be insulted by this, but I feel the time has come to give Simkins an ultimatum to justify his position, or to deny him the oxygen of publicity, and save us all from his pernicious and scurrilous attacks on Orthodoxy, history, and the memory of those, living and dead, who were the recipients of Stalin's "benevolence".

Some more food for thought:

Here is a letter, only published from the Soviet archives during the glasnost period, written to Stalin in 1937 by a little 12-year-old girl from the countryside. Despite the propaganda of the time, the simple honesty of this little girl makes this letter truly harrowing and moving to read. The little poem at the end is simply gut-wrenching. To me, this letter is perhaps the most eloquent summary of the horrors of Stalinism:

13 January 1937

How do you do, dear comrade Stalin! Our beloved leader, teacher and friend of the whole happy Soviet land. Dear comrade Stalin! I send you my warm and heartfelt greetings and wish you the best successes in your life, and good health for ever. I want to describe my sad life to you.

Dear Comrade Stalin! I heard you saying in your speeches on the radio that children in the Soviet Union have a very good life, they study at school, the school's doors are wide open to them. That is, of course, true, dear comrade Stalin.

Dear Joseph Vissarionovich, I and my brother Aleksandr are not strong enough to go to school. Because, comrade Stalin, we have no food. The Kurilovsky village soviet took our cow and horse from us in 1935. And this is already the second year that we are living without the cow and the horse. There are eight people in our family; six children, the oldest girl is fourteen and the youngest boy is two.

Dear Joseph Vissarionovich! We didn't join the collective farm because my father is an invalid; he fought in two wars, and lost all his health in them, and so he hasn't the strength to work in the collective farm. We haven't any land at present, we handed it over to the collective farm in 1936.

I am in the fourth class at school, comrade Stalin, and my brother is at school too, in the second class. The others don't go to school because they are still too young. Dear comrade Stalin, it's quite impossible for us to go to school, as there isn't any nourishment, and we have very bad anaemia as well.

Dear comrade Stalin! I want to describe to you my progress in my studies: for the first quarter all my marks for seven subjects were `excellent', and for three subjects they were 'good'. But I shall achieve what I want, 'excellent' for all subjects, in the third quarter. But if, comrade Stalin, there was nourishment, then I would study even better.

Dear and beloved leader, comrade Stalin! I think of you, and rely on you to give us help of some kind. Do not leave my request unfulfilled.

So there you are, comrade Stalin, our beloved leader, I have described my life for you. I rely on you, beloved leader of a happy country, not to forget my request. Please write back to me, dear comrade Stalin, I will be waiting impatiently.

I would still like Simkins to prove his claim that only Russia played an important role in the ultimate defeat of Germany in WWII, since his assertion has thus far shown a Russophile nationalism that should shade our view of his veneration and advocacy of "Saint" Zoya. Maybe Russia could have defeated Germany all by themselves, but they did not provide the only major contributions to the ultimate Allied victory.

In his book Senator McCarthy charged George Marshall with treason because the Second front was opened in Normandy. McCarthy argued that allies should have gone from Italy to Balcans and then to Poland to save those countries from Communism. The only role of the second front in Senator's understanding was saving countries from communism, not defeat of Germany.

In addition in his book Haendler und Helden Werner Sombart classified British and Americans as Haendler. Also Carl Schmitt in his book Land und Meer argued that the only way a Meer power can defeat Land power is to use diplomatic tricks to cause a war between two Land powers. To Land civilizations belong Russia, Germany and Rome. To Meer - USA, Britain and Carthage.

Simkins, if Zoya bit her bottom lip so hard she almost cut through it, according to the accounts on your own website, and in the sites you linked to, then how can you explain the lack of damage to her lip in the photograph, which you delight in posting ad nauseam? And, please, spare us any further nausea if your answer is "a miracle". That simply won't wash, I'm afraid.

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I would still like Simkins to prove his claim that only Russia played an important role in the ultimate defeat of Germany in WWII, since his assertion has thus far shown a Russophile nationalism that should shade our view of his veneration and advocacy of "Saint" Zoya.

That's the key thing, IMHO - his Russophilia-Russomania. I don't even call it "nationalism," because it's not. Nationalism is a more rational thing, it's a deep care about someone's nation. The Russomania that is being currently galvanized by the Putinoids is a crazy, insane thing, very similar, if anything, to the appeal of Hitler to the Germans that if you are a true Deutch, you love your Vaterland beyond everything else, even when this love requires a total loss of any humanity, compassion, humility, honesty... They are pulling out from their history everything that has "glorious," upbeat, triumphant obertones in it, be it the defeat of the "Dog Knights" by St. Alexander Nevsky, the crazy march of Peter the "Great" or the Satanic feasting of Lenin and Stalin on human blood. "Jolly good, all for the Empire." And if you object, you are declared a Russophobe. And the enemy is clear (again, just like in Hitler's case). This enemy is the West with its "liberalism" (which is understood not at all like it is understood in the USA, but merely as a world view where one holds anything else - humanity, humility, for example - in a higher regard than the Blood and Soil, the Holy Mother Russia). While the history of Russia is being edited so that everything upbeat and triumphant is pulled out and lifted up, the history of the West is also being edited, in the opposite way: it is presented as only deceit, only meanness, only cruelty, only plans to conquer "our Holy Mother Russia."

I found some videos last night, showing Hitler during his speeches. Poor naive, weak Adolf. Just wait, in a few years the Kremlin midgets will put him to shame. And the West will keep "appeasing," as always...

Worse, by his revisionist and blasphemous statements, he has shown not a shred of respect or reverence for genuine saints, nor for Christ, who alone "trampled down death by death", nor of those folks, living or dead, who suffered for the Orthodox faith under Stalinism.

Not "trampled down death by death" but conquerred death by death. To trample is unchristly.Not Christ alone, but Zoya too. She, like Christ, died for an Idea.

Peter, can we honestly expect that this is possible with this man? After all, in his reply to me has twisted my words to make them mean the complete opposite of what they truly mean. Just as black is white, and just as night is day.

I did not twist anything, but quoted exactly what you said. You had in mind something like

Here is a letter, only published from the Soviet archives during the glasnost period, written to Stalin in 1937 by a little 12-year-old girl from the countryside. Despite the propaganda of the time, the simple honesty of this little girl makes this letter truly harrowing and moving to read. The little poem at the end is simply gut-wrenching. To me, this letter is perhaps the most eloquent summary of the horrors of Stalinism:.

This could have been interesting then. Not after 1990th period. There were more homeless children in 1995 than in 1945.

Simkins, if Zoya bit her bottom lip so hard she almost cut through it, according to the accounts on your own website, and in the sites you linked to, then how can you explain the lack of damage to her lip in the photograph,

Don't recall such an account

"When the interrogation was over Zoya had a large purple-black bruise on her forehead, and weals on her arms and legs. She was breathing heavily. She was half undressed and barefoot. The girl's hands were bound behind her. Her lips were bloody and swollen. She had evidently bitten them for not to cry."

This could have been interesting then. Not after 1990th period. There were more homeless children in 1995 than in 1945.

Would you please give some source for that statement? On what do you base this statement? And if it's a percentage, then since there are more human beings alive on Earth now then in 1945, the statement may be true but not mean much without some context. That Stalin caused the famine in the Ukraine is a matter of historical record and that letter is from a real child who suffered from that action. So that you may not find it interesting does not negate that the child once lived and that her life was torn apart.

Ebor

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"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

Worse, by his revisionist and blasphemous statements, he has shown not a shred of respect or reverence for genuine saints, nor for Christ, who alone "trampled down death by death", nor of those folks, living or dead, who suffered for the Orthodox faith under Stalinism.

Not "trampled down death by death" but conquerred death by death. To trample is unchristly.

Says who? The English translation of the Paschal Troparion that I've heard so many sing, and that LBK cited, speaks of Christ "trampling" down death by death. Are you now going to take issue with the language of our hymnography?

Peter, can we honestly expect that this is possible with this man? After all, in his reply to me has twisted my words to make them mean the complete opposite of what they truly mean. Just as black is white, and just as night is day.

Here is a letter, only published from the Soviet archives during the glasnost period, written to Stalin in 1937 by a little 12-year-old girl from the countryside. Despite the propaganda of the time, the simple honesty of this little girl makes this letter truly harrowing and moving to read. The little poem at the end is simply gut-wrenching. To me, this letter is perhaps the most eloquent summary of the horrors of Stalinism:.

This could have been interesting then. Not after 1990th period. There were more homeless children in 1995 than in 1945.

Irrelevant. LBK is not comparing the number of homeless in 1995 to the number of homeless in 1945.

Says who? The English translation of the Paschal Troparion that I've heard so many sing, and that LBK cited, speaks of Christ "trampling" down death by death. Are you now going to take issue with the language of our hymnography?

Says me. How many people did sing it? There are not many English-speaking Pravoslavny. Two hundred and fifty thousands people took my "True art, or fake?" quiz that I mentioned earlier in this thread. Can I have my opinion?

In one article, written in Russian, I quoted Nabokov. I myself translated the passage from English. The editor pointed out that my translation differs from the official translation (made by Nabokov himself). Nonetheless, my translation was published, because it was better.

Says who? The English translation of the Paschal Troparion that I've heard so many sing, and that LBK cited, speaks of Christ "trampling" down death by death. Are you now going to take issue with the language of our hymnography?

Says me. How many people did sing it? There are not many English-speaking Pravoslavny. Two hundred and fifty thousands people took my "True art, or fake?" quiz that I mentioned earlier in this thread. Can I have my opinion?

It's fine to have your own opinion, but it's not okay to correct someone's language because it disagrees with your opinion.

Cowards defamed Zoya to justify their own miserable behavior in similar circumstances.

To check the hypothesis one needs a scientific method for measuring cowardice. I was considering different methods and finally settled with this. Bring the subject to the top of a 100+ high feet building and see how close he can come to the edge of the roof. Cowardice is measured in feet. There is certain arbitrarity in chosing this particular method, but I am attracted by its simplicity. Moreover it is evident that this measure will correlate very strongly with other characteristics like ability to ski at highway speeds or behaviour during meeting a bear in the woods. Now is the time to collect the data.

Cowards defamed Zoya to justify their own miserable behavior in similar circumstances.

To check the hypothesis one needs a scientific method for measuring cowardice. I was considering different methods and finally settled with this. Bring the subject to the top of a 100+ high feet building and see how close he can come to the edge of the roof. Cowardice is measured in feet. There is certain arbitrarity in chosing this particular method, but I am attracted by its simplicity. Moreover it is evident that this measure will correlate very strongly with other characteristics like ability to ski at highway speeds or behaviour during meeting a bear in the woods. Now is the time to collect the data.

Complete and utter tripe, Simkins, and you know it. You have shown a great degree of cowardice yourself in hiding behind the skirts of your blinkered, rabid, neocommunist Russophilia. Your grasp of history is woeful and distorted, and your insistence that Zoya should be canonised is utterly blasphemous, and a gross insult to the genuine saints (the New Martyrs and Confessors of Russia) and laymen who truly suffered greatly for their Orthodox faith, often to the point of death, under Stalinism. Zoya died for Stalin and what he stood for, not for God or Christ.

When the Patriarch of Moscow was approached a few years ago to consider the glorification as a saint of Tsar Ivan Grozny, his response was brief, and very telling. He stated that Hieromartyr Philip, Metropolitan of Moscow, among others, had been murdered on the order of the Tsar. If Tsar Ivan, the perpetrator of the death of St Philip, were made a saint, then it would be necessary to "uncanonise" St Philip. You cannot recognise as saints both the victim and the perpetrator of such injustice. The "idea" that Zoya died for was the communist, Stalinist ideal, which was, by definition, atheist. She did not die for the salvation of mankind, whereas Christ, the Son of God, did. To canonise Zoya would be to spit in the faces and on the graves of the New Martyrs.

As for your cheap shot at established Orthodox hymnography and its use in English of the word "trample", here are the texts in Slavonic and Greek of the troparion for the Resurrection:

What is the glaring difference between the life and death of Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya, compared with, say, the life and death of Evgeniy Rodionov, the 19-year-old conscript who was sent to Chechnya in 1996?

We're still waiting for your answer to the above question, that is, if you have the guts and honesty to answer it.

« Last Edit: March 26, 2009, 12:44:39 AM by LBK »

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Complete and utter tripe, Simkins, and you know it. You have shown a great degree of cowardice yourself in hiding behind the skirts of your blinkered, rabid, neocommunist Russophilia.

A coward is a person, whose week nerves render him unable to face danger. The Russian word for coward is трус, which can be literally translated as trembler (and this word is sometimes used in English to describe a coward). Etimologically it is derived from the word tremble which relates to shaking of limbs, which a coward experiences in the moment of danger. Thats the real meaning of the word.

Your grasp of history is woeful and distorted, and your insistence that Zoya should be canonised is utterly blasphemous, and a gross insult to the genuine saints (the New Martyrs and Confessors of Russia)

There was not such a heroine like Zoya in the whole world for 500 years (since Jeanne d'Arc). Thus to be in the same cathegory with her is not an insult but a great honour.

When the Patriarch of Moscow was approached a few years ago to consider the glorification as a saint of Tsar Ivan Grozny, his response was brief, and very telling. He stated that Hieromartyr Philip, Metropolitan of Moscow, among others, had been murdered on the order of the Tsar. If Tsar Ivan, the perpetrator of the death of St Philip, were made a saint, then it would be necessary to "uncanonise" St Philip.

Actually Grozny is a local saint in Moscow Eparchia. There is an image of him with an aureola in Granovita hall in Kremlin

You cannot recognise as saints both the victim and the perpetrator of such injustice. The "idea" that Zoya died for was the communist, Stalinist ideal, which was, by definition, atheist. She did not die for the salvation of mankind, whereas Christ, the Son of God, did.

What is that? Did Zoya kill Philip? She was an angel. She lived a sinless life.

Translation:Regardless from what the Hierarchy of Russian Orthodox Church and the majority of the laity spoke against canonization of Grozny, in some circles Ioan Vasilievich Grozny is considered a local Saint of Moscow Diocese by a small group of enthusiasts.

It's fine to have your own opinion, but it's not okay to correct someone's language because it disagrees with your opinion.

It's OK when my opinion is the right one.

You missed your calling. You would do much better demonstrating logical fallacies, since you're so full of them. For instance, the bare assertion fallacy that I just quoted above. IOW, merely saying something is so don't make it so. What outside source says your opinion of "trampling down death by death" is right? The same goes for your assertion that Zoya is a saint.

In general, your inability to formulate a cogent argument and your way of dodging questions by derailing this thread with so many tangents is extremely juvenile. Do you really want to be seen as juvenile? Or do you want people to respect you as a mature adult?

I'm not bilingual, so you're going to have to translate that to English. Besides, I think you've already been told that anything you post in a foreign language outside of our foreign language boards needs to have an English translation attached.

Translation:Regardless from what the Hierarchy of Russian Orthodox Church and the majority of the laity spoke against canonization of Grozny, in some circles Ioan Vasilievich Grozny is considered a local Saint of Moscow Diocese by a small group of enthusiasts.

An image in Granovita Hall in Kremlin is more of an official document than wikipedia. Just because not everyone can paint what he wants in Granovita, but anyone can edit wikipedia.

Ivan Grozny was officially canonized by Moscow Eparchy. The "small group" includes the famous singer Janna Bichevskaya

Would you rather that Simkin's infantile infatuation with "Saint" Zoya go unchallenged? Would our silence do anything to snap him out of his delusion?

Hmm. Are you telling me that you've finally changed his mind after challenging him? Cuz 4 pages into it, I'm not getting that. I've just never seen an argument go anywhere or change anything, that's all. Believe me, when I was a Muslim, all I did was argue with Christians. I even became the president of the local Muslim Students Assoc and held huge lectures on campus. Guess how many I was able to convert by constantly bickering and arguing? Zero. Believe me, you won't change anyone's mind by arguing or challenging as you put it. It's just a huge wast of time and energy regardless of who's right.

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Would you rather that Simkin's infantile infatuation with "Saint" Zoya go unchallenged? Would our silence do anything to snap him out of his delusion?

Hmm. Are you telling me that you've finally changed his mind after challenging him? Cuz 4 pages into it, I'm not getting that. I've just never seen an argument go anywhere or change anything, that's all. Believe me, when I was a Muslim, all I did was argue with Christians. I even became the president of the local Muslim Students Assoc and held huge lectures on campus. Guess how many I was able to convert by constantly bickering and arguing? Zero. Believe me, you won't change anyone's mind by arguing or challenging as you put it. It's just a huge wast of time and energy regardless of who's right.

You really think I'm going to give up so soon because you don't see this argument going anywhere? Who knows what seed it might plant for later germination? There may be more to this argument that you're not seeing, so I encourage you to just relax and let us continue this discussion until we see fit to give up.

Complete and utter nonsense. The Moscow Patriarchate has steadfastly refused to canonise Ivan IV, and rightly so. This is a matter of public and historical record, so there's no use trying to argue otherwise. Ivan's name does not appear on any Orthodox calendar or list of Orthodox saints, Russian, Muscovite, or otherwise. There is no feastday appointed for Ivan IV, for the simple reason that he has never been recognised as a saint.

The vigil service (Vespers and Matins) for Hieromartyr Philip of Moscow (feastday January 9) refers to the tsar as a "new Herod" and a "new Pharaoh". Are these words which describe a saint?

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To say that Christ died for "a very honorable idea" is to trivialize the Incarnation and the redemption of the humanity...

BTW, does your parish priest know about your campaign for canonization of Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya? I would be very interested in getting to know him and in corresponding with him. Please write me privately and give me his coordinates!

Not by Patriarchate but by Eparchy. Местночтимый московский святой. My source is Janna Bichevskaya radio programme where she clearly stated that. It is archived somewhere on her website. Do you suggest that Peoples Artist of Russia Janna Bichevskaya is a liar?

Have you also tried Druidism? Or that heathenish religion practiced by the brewers of Heather Ale?

I think that you will end up as a Freemason. Thats how all the folks like yourself end up.

The Moderators and Administrators have been very patient with you since you were a newcomer to the forum, but you are now being placed on an official warning for this type of uncalled for attack on fellow posters. If this posting behaviour continues, you will be placed on post moderation, and if it continues further, you will be banned.

Not by Patriarchate but by Eparchy. Местночтимый московский святой. My source is Janna Bichevskaya radio programme where she clearly stated that. It is archived somewhere on her website. Do you suggest that Peoples Artist of Russia Janna Bichevskaya is a liar?

Until you can provide proof that Tsar Ivan IV is listed as a saint in any canonical Orthodox calendar, provide proof of a feast-day appointed for him, and a vigil service written for him, then yes, Janna Bichevskaya is not telling the truth. So she has praised Ivan Grozny in her quasi-religious, nationalistic songs. So what? That hardly means that the man is a saint. Who has the authority to proclaim sainthood - a singer, a revisionist nationalist (like yourself), or the Russian Orthodox Church?

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The problem with Simkins is that he is quite eager to "fight dirty", yet, we who disagree with him, and have questioned at length his motives and viewpoints, are obliged (by our own sense of what's right, and through this forum's rules) to "play fair". But "the truth will out", as the old saying goes. Yet again, Simkins has shown his cowardice at answering straight questions challenging his views.

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As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.-- Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS

You should all know by now that Simkins is utterly childish and immature in his crusades re Zoya, revisionist nationalism, and in refusing to answer to any sensible degree any of our legitimate questions. So, Gabriel, to be branded a possible Druid and a potential Freemason by this man should be a badge of courage, not an insult. Small men resort to personal attacks, real men argue their case with dignity and proper reason.

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