I guess when you don't believe in anything and you are angry at everything, anything is possible.

Another reason why Atheism is a bad idea.

Animal Mother

06-18-2012, 06:42

I did read the article. Then you should have seen where the individual in question reported God told him to burn the bed.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2152466/Seattle-shootings-Gunman-Lee-Stawicki-murders-5-university-district-kills-himself.html What does this article have to do with the question at hand?
I guess when you don't believe in anything and you are angry at everything, anything is possible. Clearly the individual in the original article does believe in God, so I'll ask again, how is this relevant to the question at hand?
Another reason why Atheism is a bad idea.Something, much like kangaroos in the middle east and suppressed scientific evidence, you have claimed yet failed to substantiate with any evidence.

Back to the original topic. We have a first hand account of God telling someone to commit a crime, arson in this case. This contradicts the constant claims by those who claim they speak with God themselves that he would never order such a thing.

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9215670/Government_made_me_do_it_imprisoned_TJX_hacker_claims None of those accounts report God ordered them to do anything.

eracer

06-18-2012, 06:47

Is there a point?
Just another wacko to add to the list.

Murderdolls The Devil Made Me Do It - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5iIGHjjUzo)I clicked on this hoping for some cool MDK animation, and all I got was a sucky song.

Blast

06-18-2012, 08:10

None of those accounts report God ordered them to do anything.
I'm fully aware of that. You miss the point.
Simply examples of idiots making ridiculous excuses for their own fail. Or perhaps severe psychological issues.
The subject of the excuse is irrelevant. But anyway... here's a "God told me to" for ya.

...
Back to the original topic. We have a first hand account of God telling someone to commit a crime, arson in this case. This contradicts the constant claims by those who claim they speak with God themselves that he would never order such a thing.

I didn't read the article.

Since I am sure there is no evidence that God actually told him to do it, I don't see how it contradicts people saying God wouldn't tell anyone to do something like that.

Kingarthurhk

06-18-2012, 15:22

Then you should have seen where the individual in question reported God told him to burn the bed.
What does this article have to do with the question at hand?

Angry Atheist on a killing spree? I guess he had no belief and therefore no hope.

Altaris

06-18-2012, 16:32

Angry Atheist on a killing spree? I guess he had no belief and therefore no hope.

Unless I am just sleepy and missed it, I don't recall that article claiming he didn't believe in any deities.
And lets just say for a minute it were true, who cares. That holds about as much relevance as him being a vegetarian, or owning a fish, or liking soccer(should those be true).

For all we know, god told him to do it.

Animal Mother

06-18-2012, 16:47

I'm fully aware of that. You miss the point.
Simply examples of idiots making ridiculous excuses for their own fail. Or perhaps severe psychological issues.
The subject of the excuse is irrelevant. But anyway... here's a "God told me to" for ya.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/04/25/1085857/-Glenn-Beck-God-told-me-to-quit-Fox-News-or-lose-my-soul
People who say they've spoken with God are only making "ridiculous excuses"?

Kingarthurhk

06-18-2012, 16:47

Unless I am just sleepy and missed it, I don't recall that article claiming he didn't believe in any deities.
And lets just say for a minute it were true, who cares. That holds about as much relevance as him being a vegetarian, or owning a fish, or liking soccer(should those be true).

For all we know, god told him to do it.

My point to the OP.

Animal Mother

06-18-2012, 16:47

Angry Atheist on a killing spree? I guess he had no belief and therefore no hope.
Again, even if true, what does that have to do with God's orders in the OP?

Animal Mother

06-18-2012, 16:49

My point to the OP.
Your point is incorrect. In the OP, the arsonist claimed a command from God as the direct reason he committed his acts. That isn't the case in the article you posted.

Animal Mother

06-18-2012, 16:50

I didn't read the article.

Since I am sure there is no evidence that God actually told him to do it, I don't see how it contradicts people saying God wouldn't tell anyone to do something like that. There's exactly as much evidence that God told him to do what he did as there is that God tells others to do things. If we are supposed to accept God's influence in those other events, what basis would we have to reject the will of God in this case?

Kingarthurhk

06-18-2012, 16:52

Again, even if true, what does that have to do with God's orders in the OP?

To show the depravity that is often associated with Godlesness.

http://www.wnd.com/1999/04/1356/

Kind of like the Columbine Atheist who asked the Theist if she believed in God, right before murdering her.

Altaris

06-18-2012, 16:58

To show the depravity that is often associated with Godlesness.

http://www.wnd.com/1999/04/1356/

Kind of like the Columbine Atheist who asked the Theist if she believed in God, right before murdering her.

How do you know he was an atheist? Another article where atheism is never claimed. He was a nut and was going to shoot the girl anyway, so her answer to his question(no matter what the question was) had no baring on what happened.

GeorgiaGlocker

06-18-2012, 17:00

Angry Atheist on a killing spree? I guess he had no belief and therefore no hope.

There is hope. He just refuses to acknowledge it.

NMG26

06-18-2012, 17:10

I
Simply examples of idiots making ridiculous excuses for their own fail.

Well I am glad that you are willing to admit personal responsibility.

There are a bunch of Christians that think that God is going to alleviate us of the our responsibility on this planet by a miraculous second coming of Christ. God told them that this was going to happen so we are not responsible for the outcome here on earth.

God did tell you Jesus was coming back.....didn't He?

Kingarthurhk

06-18-2012, 19:21

How do you know he was an atheist? Another article where atheism is never claimed. He was a nut and was going to shoot the girl anyway, so her answer to his question(no matter what the question was) had no baring on what happened.

Yes, a nutty angry atheist.

steveksux

06-18-2012, 19:39

Back to the original topic. We have a first hand account of God telling someone to commit a crime, arson in this case. This contradicts the constant claims by those who claim they speak with God themselves that he would never order such a thing.
Two things. First, God is merely in the process of grooming the people making those claims. He just hasn't make "that" request "yet"...

And second, God reserves all the really massive mass killings for Himself. Floods, Sodom and Gomorrah.

Randy

Altaris

06-18-2012, 20:01

Yes, a nutty angry atheist.

Again, where is atheist mentioned, and how does that have any baring on him being nutty?

We can just as easily turn it around. God works in mysterious ways, right? How do you know god didn't command him to do that in order to test the girls faith?

Kingarthurhk

06-18-2012, 21:06

Again, where is atheist mentioned, and how does that have any baring on him being nutty?

We can just as easily turn it around. God works in mysterious ways, right? How do you know god didn't command him to do that in order to test the girls faith?

Since when do you test faith by murder?

Animal Mother

06-18-2012, 21:09

To show the depravity that is often associated with Godlesness. As opposed to the depravity often associated with Godliness? Regardless, it's still completely tangential to the topic of the original post.
Kind of like the Columbine Atheist who asked the Theist if she believed in God, right before murdering her.Are you asserting that theists don't kill? I'm really not clear on what argument you're trying to make here.

Kingarthurhk

06-18-2012, 21:17

As opposed to the depravity often associated with Godliness? Regardless, it's still completely tangential to the topic of the original post.
Are you asserting that theists don't kill? I'm really not clear on what argument you're trying to make here.

I see you can lob the heat, but you can't take the heat.

janice6

06-18-2012, 21:20

More likely too many concussions.

Animal Mother

06-18-2012, 21:26

I see you can lob the heat, but you can't take the heat.And I see that you've chosen to go the random non-sequitor route rather than engaging in discussion.

Kingarthurhk

06-18-2012, 21:34

And I see that you've chosen to go the random non-sequitor route rather than engaging in discussion.

I am engaging in it. I am just tired of your agenda.

Animal Mother

06-18-2012, 21:37

I am engaging in it. I am just tired of your agenda. You mean you're tired of looking for the truth and defending one's claims and positions with objective facts? I can't see how that would get tiresome for you, given that you've done neither.

Woofie

06-18-2012, 21:37

If it's your religion, it's just some idiot. If it's someone else's religion, it's a death cult.

Kingarthurhk

06-18-2012, 21:50

You mean you're tired of looking for the truth and defending one's claims and positions with objective facts? I can't see how that would get tiresome for you, given that you've done neither.

No, that you clearly despise God, for whatever reason, and you wish to start OP's with the express purpose of directing that malice toward those who believe. That agenda. There is no fact finding in what you did. That is why I threw other examples at you to help you grasp that concept. Aparently, in that I have failed.

Altaris

06-18-2012, 21:53

Since when do you test faith by murder?

He works in mysterious ways. Do you know all of his testing methods? So you are doubting that he was directed by god? Who are you to judge what he was or wasn't told?

It is just as believable as you telling me that god spoke to you.

Kingarthurhk

06-18-2012, 21:57

If it's your religion, it's just some idiot. If it's someone else's religion, it's a death cult.

I fail to see the causal relationship. For instance. At this moment, due to a nasty injury I am typing away with two muscle relaxers and two hydrocodone in my system. I have heard no message from God this evening with the exception of two things:

1. The moral dilemma that was eating me all day and evening was answered that I should give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's. I appreciate that kindness He gave me.

2. That and I was to reach out to particular individual with a message of faith and love, which I did.

Now, at no point was I instructed to burn down anything.

The concept intentionally presented by the OP is that all believers are either druged up idiots who believe they hear messages from God to do stupid things. Or, alternatively, that they are mentally defective.

Now, I may not be the most brilliant man who walked the earth, but I can grasp that concept and what is actual and what is not. Even while on prescribed medication.:upeyes:

Syclone538

06-18-2012, 22:01

There's exactly as much evidence that God told him to do what he did as there is that God tells others to do things.
...

Agreed, but for the discussion, lets pretend there is a god and it talks to some people.

...
If we are supposed to accept God's influence in those other events, what basis would we have to reject the will of God in this case?

It's not rejecting the will of god, it's rejecting a nut's claim that he talked to god. That leaves the question of how do we decide if someone claiming to talk to god is a nut, and I have no answer.

Animal Mother

06-18-2012, 22:19

No, that you clearly despise God, I thought you'd decided I was an atheist. If that were true, how could I despise a fictional being?
and you wish to start OP's with the express purpose of directing that malice toward those who believe. How is it malicious to ask about God communicating with his believers?
That agenda. An agenda you apparently invented.
There is no fact finding in what you did. I'm sorry, I try to take baby steps so you don't get lost along the way.
That is why I threw other examples at you to help you grasp that concept. But your examples had nothing to do with the original post, nor the concept I intended to discuss. The question remains, if the individual from the original post truly took his direction from God, can you question his actions? If he didn't take such direction, how do we differentiate that from when God does talk to people as you claim He does on a regular basis?

Animal Mother

06-18-2012, 22:21

I fail to see the causal relationship. For instance. At this moment, due to a nasty injury I am typing away with two muscle relaxers and two hydrocodone in my system. I have heard no message from God this evening with the exception of two things:

1. The moral dilemma that was eating me all day and evening was answered that I should give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's. I appreciate that kindness He gave me.

2. That and I was to reach out to particular individual with a message of faith and love, which I did.

Now, at no point was I instructed to burn down anything. Because God didn't direct you to burn anything tonight we should conclude that He never tells anyone anywhere to burn anything?
The concept intentionally presented by the OP is that all believers are either druged up idiots who believe they hear messages from God to do stupid things. Or, alternatively, that they are mentally defective. That isn't the concept at all, I think you may be projecting.
Now, I may not be the most brilliant man who walked the earth, but I can grasp that concept and what is actual and what is not. Even while on prescribed medication.:upeyes: How do you know the messages you believe you received from God tonight were not in fact the result of your altered mental state?

Animal Mother

06-18-2012, 22:22

Agreed, but for the discussion, lets pretend there is a god and it talks to some people. Stipulated, for the purpose of the discussion.
It's not rejecting the will of god, it's rejecting a nut's claim that he talked to god. That leaves the question of how do we decide if someone claiming to talk to god is a nut, and I have no answer.More to the point, how do we differentiate between those who actually do talk to God and those who only claim to do so, assuming as we are that God does in fact talk to people.

Kingarthurhk

06-18-2012, 22:40

Because God didn't direct you to burn anything tonight we should conclude that He never tells anyone anywhere to burn anything?
That isn't the concept at all, I think you may be projecting.
How do you know the messages you believe you received from God tonight were not in fact the result of your altered mental state?

Because, I have dealt with God long enough to know when He is attempting to get my attention. My wife was watching me agonize over the ethical quandry. So, she knew the circumstances, and understood the answer. She is also very much sober.

My altered mental state has the added benefit of reducing my physical pain. If anything it provides a bit of brief euphoria followed by general drowsiness.

Animal Mother

06-18-2012, 23:44

Because, I have dealt with God long enough to know when He is attempting to get my attention.How can we say Kevin Ellison isn't in the same situation.
My wife was watching me agonize over the ethical quandry. So, she knew the circumstances, and understood the answer. She is also very much sober. I'm not questioning whether or not you were engaged by a dilemma.
My altered mental state has the added benefit of reducing my physical pain. A reason many people use marijuana.
If anything it provides a bit of brief euphoria followed by general drowsiness.Also a description of the effects of marijuana.

Kingarthurhk

06-19-2012, 05:57

How can we say Kevin Ellison isn't in the same situation.
I'm not questioning whether or not you were engaged by a dilemma.
A reason many people use marijuana.
Also a description of the effects of marijuana.

Nice inference, but I don't toke. In fact that would be illegal. What I am prescribed is legal and for a very specific purpose.

I am tired this morning, very tired, but the frustration I have over the dilemma is the same, and the answer is still the same.

I am to carry on for a higher purpose until and to which time as the camel pokes its nose further in the tent. That is as far as I am willing to disclose.

Animal Mother

06-19-2012, 06:26

Nice inference, but I don't toke. I wasn't inferring that. I was saying that Kevin Ellison did, because that's what the article reports.
In fact that would be illegal. What I am prescribed is legal and for a very specific purpose. Again, I think you're projecting a bit.
I am tired this morning, very tired, but the frustration I have over the dilemma is the same, and the answer is still the same.

I am to carry on for a higher purpose until and to which time as the camel pokes its nose further in the tent. That is as far as I am willing to disclose.None of which is responsive to my post, which didn't ask you disclose anything. The question, again, is how do you know that you communicated with God and Ellison did not?

Kingarthurhk

06-19-2012, 06:54

I wasn't inferring that. I was saying that Kevin Ellison did, because that's what the article reports.
Again, I think you're projecting a bit.
None of which is responsive to my post, which didn't ask you disclose anything. The question, again, is how do you know that you communicated with God and Ellison did not?

Beause God doesn't instruct us to do destructive and illegal activities. Just as my answer was give unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God what is God's. It is what was communicated to me. I don't even have to like it, but I have to accept it, (and I don't). There will come a time when that line is crossed and I will have to give up everything I am and have now.

The frustration is I am seeing the writing clearly on the wall.

Animal Mother

06-19-2012, 07:30

Beause God doesn't instruct us to do destructive and illegal activities. Can we check with the Canaanites about that one?

Geko45

06-19-2012, 08:36

Since when do you test faith by murder?

Since Abraham...

Geko45

06-19-2012, 08:38

I'm fully aware of that. You miss the point. Simply examples of idiots making ridiculous excuses for their own fail. Or perhaps severe psychological issues.

No, but maybe you are finally aware of ours.

Kingarthurhk

06-19-2012, 08:52

Can we check with the Canaanites about that one?

Please explain how that was illegal. Was there a United Nations, a Geneva Convention? I would love for you to explore the legalities of this issue.:dunno:

Kingarthurhk

06-19-2012, 08:53

Since Abraham...

Interesting. I never knew a former military man to be a pacifist.

Geko45

06-19-2012, 08:56

Interesting. I never knew a former military man to be a pacifist.

I'm a lover, not a fighter...

:supergrin:

No, not a pacifist, but let's just say that I understand the importance of violence as a last resort.

Kingarthurhk

06-19-2012, 09:14

I'm a lover, not a fighter...

:supergrin:

No, not a pacifist, but let's just say that I understand the importance of violence as a last resort.

But, you were a figther. Why?

Geko45

06-19-2012, 09:59

But, you were a figther. Why?

Chicks dig a guy in uniform...

:supergrin:

Kingarthurhk

06-19-2012, 12:21

Chicks dig a guy in uniform...

:supergrin:

You could have done that without joining the military.

High-Gear

06-19-2012, 14:05

Because, I have dealt with God long enough to know when He is attempting to get my attention. My wife was watching me agonize over the ethical quandry. So, she knew the circumstances, and understood the answer. She is also very much sober.

My altered mental state has the added benefit of reducing my physical pain. If anything it provides a bit of brief euphoria followed by general drowsiness.

You speak directly with god eh? Really? :shocked:

So if god tells someone to do something good, he is really talking with god.

If god tells someone to do something bad, that person suffers from a mental problem, or is making an excuse?

Awful convenient isnt it?

Kingarthurhk

06-19-2012, 14:40

You speak directly with god eh? Really? :shocked:

So if god tells someone to do something good, he is really talking with god.

If god tells someone to do something bad, that person suffers from a mental problem, or is making an excuse?

Awful convenient isnt it?

God communicates with everyone. The trouble is you need to listen. I ask, and sometimes I get answers.

Psalms 46:10, "He says, ďBe still, and know that I am God; <sup class="crossreference" value='(AI (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-14625AI))'></sup>
I will be exalted <sup class="crossreference" value='(AJ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-14625AJ))'></sup> among the nations,
I will be exalted in the earth.Ē

I have known things before they happened, and known things while they were happening and recounted the events to the people who were there before they could open their mouths. Why? God told me.

I am not going to start a psychic network, but when God feels I need to know something, and I wait for him, He has been known to tell me things no one else could possibly know.

Psalms 24:1-2, "The earth is the Lordís, <sup class="crossreference" value='(A (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-14243A))'></sup> and everything in it,
the world, and all who live in it; <sup class="crossreference" value='(B (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-14243B))'></sup>
<sup class="versenum">2 </sup>for he founded it on the seas
and established it on the waters."

Please explain how that was illegal. Where did I say it was illegal (though it was a violation of the ten commandments)?
Was there a United Nations, a Geneva Convention? I would love for you to explore the legalities of this issue.:dunno: Why do you constantly attempt to get me to defend positions I haven't claimed? Do you deny that the invasion of Canaan was an example of God ordering people to be destructive?

Kingarthurhk

06-19-2012, 15:13

Where did I say it was illegal (though it was a violation of the ten commandments)?
Why do you constantly attempt to get me to defend positions I haven't claimed? Do you deny that the invasion of Canaan was an example of God ordering people to be destructive?

I said illegal and and violent acts. You snapped without catching the first clause. That is why the the legality issue was brought up.

Tell me, do you believe all war is immoral and should never be prosecuted?

Animal Mother

06-19-2012, 15:19

I said illegal and and violent acts. You snapped without catching the first clause. That is why the the legality issue was brought up. No, I caught it, I just didn't address it. If you'd like to discuss it we can. Are you claiming God is bound by the laws of temporal governments?
Tell me, do you believe all war is immoral and should never be prosecuted?No, I believe war is regrettable but sometimes necessary. Do you believe genocide is immoral and should never be practiced?

NMG26

06-19-2012, 15:20

I said illegal and and violent acts. You snapped without catching the first clause. That is why the the legality issue was brought up.

Tell me, do you believe all war is immoral and should never be prosecuted?

I'd say the OT and the Jewish religion was a product of war. God on our side helps us win. That same mentality is still in Christianity, and is the basis of the bickering that Christians have with all other religious views. The underlying tone of Christianity is war. You war with the devil, other religions, and the world, until Christ returns.

Kingarthurhk

06-19-2012, 15:24

I'd say the OT and the Jewish religion was a product of war. God on our side helps us win. That same mentality is still in Christianity, and is the basis of the bickering that Christians have with all other religious views. The underlying tone of Christianity is war. You war with the devil, other religions, and the world, until Christ returns.

Yes, we are supposded to war against the devil and the world until Jesus returns. We aren't supposed to embrace the devil and this world. What we are supposed to do in this world is attempt to make it a better place as caretakers until Jesus does return.

Kingarthurhk

06-19-2012, 15:26

No, I caught it, I just didn't address it. If you'd like to discuss it we can. Are you claiming God is bound by the laws of temporal governments?
No, I believe war is regrettable but sometimes necessary. Do you believe genocide is immoral and should never be practiced?

So, you believe war is necessary, but you declare that God has no business overseeing the earth and declaring for His chosen people, buy you know best?

Animal Mother

06-19-2012, 15:37

So, you believe war is necessary, I believe war is sometimes necessary. You didn't answer the question about genocide though.
but you declare that God has no business overseeing the earth and declaring for His chosen people, buy you know best?I didn't declare any such thing. Considering we've established that you do believe God talks to people, if I were to show up at your house one day and tell you that God had told me it was my house now and you needed to move out or I'd have to slaughter your entire family, what would you do?

NMG26

06-19-2012, 15:38

Yes, we are supposded to war against the devil and the world until Jesus returns. We aren't supposed to embrace the devil and this world. What we are supposed to do in this world is attempt to make it a better place as caretakers until Jesus does return.

Not so with the Tao.

31 Victory Is Cause for Grief

Weapons are ominous tools. They are abhorred by all creatures.
Anyone who follows the Way shuns them.

In peaceful times, the noble ruler honors the left side.
At war, he honors the right side.

Weapons are ominous tools.
They are not the noble rulerís tools.
He only uses them when he canít avoid it.
Peace and quiet are preferred.
Victory should not be praised.
Those who praise victory relish manslaughter.
Those who relish manslaughter
Cannot reach their goals in the world.

At times of joy, the left side is honored.
At times of grief, the right side is honored.
At battle, the second in command stands to the left,
And the commander in chief to the right.
This means they stand as in funerals.

When many people are killed
They should be mourned and lamented.
Those who are victorious in war
Should follow the rites of funerals.

Kingarthurhk

06-19-2012, 15:55

Not so with the Tao.

31 Victory Is Cause for Grief

Weapons are ominous tools. They are abhorred by all creatures.
Anyone who follows the Way shuns them.

In peaceful times, the noble ruler honors the left side.
At war, he honors the right side.

Weapons are ominous tools.
They are not the noble rulerís tools.
He only uses them when he canít avoid it.
Peace and quiet are preferred.
Victory should not be praised.
Those who praise victory relish manslaughter.
Those who relish manslaughter
Cannot reach their goals in the world.

At times of joy, the left side is honored.
At times of grief, the right side is honored.
At battle, the second in command stands to the left,
And the commander in chief to the right.
This means they stand as in funerals.

When many people are killed
They should be mourned and lamented.
Those who are victorious in war
Should follow the rites of funerals.

I have read the Tao. You should know that to claim to know the Tao is not to know the Tao according to Taoists. I used to know a Taoist shaman. However, I do not accept Taoism as my religious choice.

Syclone538

06-19-2012, 16:03

...
More to the point, how do we differentiate between those who actually do talk to God and those who only claim to do so, assuming as we are that God does in fact talk to people.

That is exactly what I was trying to say. I have no idea.

steveksux

06-20-2012, 17:43

You speak directly with god eh? Really? :shocked:

So if god tells someone to do something good, he is really talking with god.

If god tells someone to do something bad, that person suffers from a mental problem, or is making an excuse?

Awful convenient isnt it?God never claimed to be a true Scotsman.

Randy

Animal Mother

06-20-2012, 20:38

That is exactly what I was trying to say. I have no idea. I'm still hoping that Kingarthurhk will enlighten us.