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Is becoming like God good or evil?

I would like to restrict giving God any other attribute except for knowing good and evil in this thread. Just for simplicity.

I have two quotes I would like you to consider.

“Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil.”

“Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.”

Knowing good and evil is the same as developing or gaining a moral sense. This is something that all governments and religions wish to develop in us and seems like a good idea to me.

If being perfect like God means that we must have the knowledge of good and evil, then Adam and Eve had to eat of the tree of knowledge ---- if they were to accomplish what most seem to think is a worthy goal. Morals. As God says in Eden, such is to have your eyes opened. A good thing IOW.

In the Jewish view, A & E did the right thing and they name it our elevation. In the Christian view, they did the wrong thing and call it our fall.

Is becoming as Gods, in the moral sense, good or evil?

If evil, please explain what is evil about developing a moral sense and following scriptures that tell us to be as Gods.

That is an interesting concept. One that I had never thought about in such terms.

The problem that I would see, is terms like "perfect" and good/ evil are somewhat abstract concepts and open to subjective interpretation.

What does "perfect" mean ? What I call perfect, another would not.

I was not aware that in ANY versions of the Garden of Eden story, that it was seen they did the "right" thing, since it ultimately lead to them being cast out of the garden and have mortality placed upon their lives ( unless there is some sort of symbolic meaning to this that I am not getting).

I view the old / new testament god as somewhat of a egotistical, narcissistic, tyrannical bully. I know that many people see all of the bible as being some sort of allegorical/symbolic book, others take every word literally and a lot of christians seem to take some of it as symbolic and some of it as literal depending upon the content.

What would you define as "perfect" or good and evil ?

How do you derive that gaining a moral viewpoint as being a god ? Are you saying that each man is his own god ? I may not be reading this right. Please clarify if I am missing the points.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno

The tree of knowledge of good and bad was Jehovah's reminder to the first human couple that they were not prepared to decide for themselves what was good and what was bad. The trees of life was a reminder to mankind that they were capable of becoming like God, in that they would be able to decide for themselves that their creator knows what is best for them, but this was temporarily withheld from them since they challenged Jehovah's sovereignty by taking the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and bad.

The seventh day, when Jehovah rested, signifies the time in which Jehovah thought was time enough to fulfill their original purpose, which was to fill and subdue the earth. That is why David and then Paul said the seventh day of rest continued on thousands of years later, and continues on to this day. Until the issue of Jehovah's sovereignty is settled.

Jehovah has given mankind time to settle the question Adam's sin raised, namely; can man decide for themselves what is good and what is bad without their creator's guidance?

The angels were created before us, God's son is called firstborn of creation, only begotten because he, in spirit form, the archangel Michael, was just that. Created first, and the only thing in all of Jehovah's creation exclusively created by Jehovah. Everything else was created through the son. The son had no question regarding his father's sovereignty, so (when God said "they have become like us, knowing good and bad" it indicates that the son was like God in that he was capable of deciding for himself what was good and what was bad, without making the mistake of challenging God's rightful sovereignty. That means it isn't necessarily bad to be like God, in fact, that is the plan. So when the issue of Jehovah's sovereignty is settled, sin and death are no more, man will be able to be like God, and the trees of life will be for a healing of the nations. The people, the meek who inherit the earth to live forever upon it. (Genesis 3:22-24; Revelation 2:7; 3:4, 5.)

The fairy tale is based on human relationships, a parent and a child. The child possesses innocence and the parent has maturity and knows right from wrong, good and evil. But the parent doesn't have to do evil. The child basically stumbles into wrong doing and is corrected. The child doesn't understand the consequences of their behavior. A loving parent is gentle and guards the child from danger. If the child stumbles he is given multiple chances to learn. But that is where the fairy tale goes dark. No second chance was given even though the consequences were unknown. It is barbaric and fits with the time written. You fuck up once and you are dead. A vile story.

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

That is an interesting concept. One that I had never thought about in such terms.

The problem that I would see, is terms like "perfect" and good/ evil are somewhat abstract concepts and open to subjective interpretation.

What does "perfect" mean ? What I call perfect, another would not.

I was not aware that in ANY versions of the Garden of Eden story, that it was seen they did the "right" thing, since it ultimately lead to them being cast out of the garden and have mortality placed upon their lives ( unless there is some sort of symbolic meaning to this that I am not getting).

I view the old / new testament god as somewhat of a egotistical, narcissistic, tyrannical bully. I know that many people see all of the bible as being some sort of allegorical/symbolic book, others take every word literally and a lot of christians seem to take some of it as symbolic and some of it as literal depending upon the content.

What would you define as "perfect" or good and evil ?

How do you derive that gaining a moral viewpoint as being a god ? Are you saying that each man is his own god ? I may not be reading this right. Please clarify if I am missing the points.

That is because you complicated the issue by looking for definitions and adding attributes to God when I asked not to to KIS.

As a Gnostic Christian I do believe that we are all God WIP's but not the bible God who is just a myth.

The basic question is; was God correct in punishing A & E for wanting a moral sense?

The tree of knowledge of good and bad was Jehovah's reminder to the first human couple that they were not prepared to decide for themselves what was good and what was bad. The trees of life was a reminder to mankind that they were capable of becoming like God, in that they would be able to decide for themselves that their creator knows what is best for them, but this was temporarily withheld from them since they challenged Jehovah's sovereignty by taking the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and bad.

The seventh day, when Jehovah rested, signifies the time in which Jehovah thought was time enough to fulfill their original purpose, which was to fill and subdue the earth. That is why David and then Paul said the seventh day of rest continued on thousands of years later, and continues on to this day. Until the issue of Jehovah's sovereignty is settled.

Jehovah has given mankind time to settle the question Adam's sin raised, namely; can man decide for themselves what is good and what is bad without their creator's guidance?

The angels were created before us, God's son is called firstborn of creation, only begotten because he, in spirit form, the archangel Michael, was just that. Created first, and the only thing in all of Jehovah's creation exclusively created by Jehovah. Everything else was created through the son. The son had no question regarding his father's sovereignty, so (when God said "they have become like us, knowing good and bad" it indicates that the son was like God in that he was capable of deciding for himself what was good and what was bad, without making the mistake of challenging God's rightful sovereignty. That means it isn't necessarily bad to be like God, in fact, that is the plan. So when the issue of Jehovah's sovereignty is settled, sin and death are no more, man will be able to be like God, and the trees of life will be for a healing of the nations. The people, the meek who inherit the earth to live forever upon it. (Genesis 3:22-24; Revelation 2:7; 3:4, 5.)

The fairy tale is based on human relationships, a parent and a child. The child possesses innocence and the parent has maturity and knows right from wrong, good and evil. But the parent doesn't have to do evil. The child basically stumbles into wrong doing and is corrected. The child doesn't understand the consequences of their behavior. A loving parent is gentle and guards the child from danger. If the child stumbles he is given multiple chances to learn. But that is where the fairy tale goes dark. No second chance was given even though the consequences were unknown. It is barbaric and fits with the time written. You fuck up once and you are dead. A vile story.

That is because you complicated the issue by looking for definitions and adding attributes to God when I asked not to to KIS.

As a Gnostic Christian I do believe that we are all God WIP's but not the bible God who is just a myth.

The basic question is; was God correct in punishing A & E for wanting a moral sense?

Regards

DL

Ok, maybe I did complicate the question. If latter half of the post is the basic question, then I would say no, god was not correct in doing so.

But here again, I may be complicating it further, but I am unaware that the story states that they were "wanting" a more moral sense ( unless you interpret the snake and the temptation to eat as being a want).

To my knowledge, correct me if I am wrong, they were only told that if they ate from the tree, they would die. It was after they had eaten from the tree that they gained the knowledge, hid from god, and was cast out.

What does KIS and WIP mean ?

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno

That is because you complicated the issue by looking for definitions and adding attributes to God when I asked not to to KIS.

As a Gnostic Christian I do believe that we are all God WIP's but not the bible God who is just a myth.

The basic question is; was God correct in punishing A & E for wanting a moral sense?

Regards

DL

Ok, maybe I did complicate the question. If latter half of the post is the basic question, then I would say no, god was not correct in doing so.

But here again, I may be complicating it further, but I am unaware that the story states that they were "wanting" a more moral sense ( unless you interpret the snake and the temptation to eat as being a want).

To my knowledge, correct me if I am wrong, they were only told that if they ate from the tree, they would die. It was after they had eaten from the tree that they gained the knowledge, hid from god, and was cast out.

What does KIS and WIP mean ?

KIS = Keep it simple.

WIP = Work in progress.

Genesis 3 6;So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise,"

We agree that she did the right thing and that God was wrong to punish her. That verse shows Eve doing what we should all do. Seek the knowledge that leads us to wisdom. Her seeking was definitely a want. A want we all share naturally.

Is becoming like God good or evil? I would like to restrict giving God any other attribute except for knowing good and evil in this thread. Just for simplicity. I have two quotes I would like you to consider. “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil.” “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” Knowing good and evil is the same as developing or gaining a moral sense. This is something that all governments and religions wish to develop in us and seems like a good idea to me. If being perfect like God means that we must have the knowledge of good and evil, then Adam and Eve had to eat of the tree of knowledge ---- if they were to accomplish what most seem to think is a worthy goal. Morals. As God says in Eden, such is to have your eyes opened. A good thing IOW. In the Jewish view, A & E did the right thing and they name it our elevation. In the Christian view, they did the wrong thing and call it our fall. Is becoming as Gods, in the moral sense, good or evil? If evil, please explain what is evil about developing a moral sense and following scriptures that tell us to be as Gods. Regards DL

As god is all that is considered good and all that is considered evil. God is the good and evil in their selves. Everyone is formed within the goods and the evils. On one side it's us, on the other it's natural material phenomenon. All are made in the image of God.

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

That is an interesting concept. One that I had never thought about in such terms.

The problem that I would see, is terms like "perfect" and good/ evil are somewhat abstract concepts and open to subjective interpretation.

What does "perfect" mean ? What I call perfect, another would not.

I was not aware that in ANY versions of the Garden of Eden story, that it was seen they did the "right" thing, since it ultimately lead to them being cast out of the garden and have mortality placed upon their lives ( unless there is some sort of symbolic meaning to this that I am not getting).

I view the old / new testament god as somewhat of a egotistical, narcissistic, tyrannical bully. I know that many people see all of the bible as being some sort of allegorical/symbolic book, others take every word literally and a lot of christians seem to take some of it as symbolic and some of it as literal depending upon the content.

What would you define as "perfect" or good and evil ?

How do you derive that gaining a moral viewpoint as being a god ? Are you saying that each man is his own god ? I may not be reading this right. Please clarify if I am missing the points.

man is derived from the good side of the creator. That means that Adam was created human and a moral being, without or absent of animal traits. The animal traits is what gums up the works-it's the monkey wrench in the gears. The biblical God is the good and the evil. Now bear in mind that good and evil aren't intelligent-they just are. People are the ones that attach the intelligence. There is no such thing as intelligent God unless one attaches "God" to being people. There are examples of this within the book.

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

man is derived from the good side of the creator. That means that Adam was created human and a moral being, without or absent of animal traits. The animal traits is what gums up the works-it's the monkey wrench in the gears. The biblical God is the good and the evil. Now bear in mind that good and evil aren't intelligent-they just are. People are the ones that attach the intelligence. There is no such thing as intelligent God unless one attaches "God" to being people. There are examples of this within the book.

So says you.

You "claim" there are examples of this within the book. Hmm, now are these abstract and obscure readings that can be interpreted as such or literal quotes ?

Specific examples please ?

BTW. Humans are animals and animals are not evil.

A hungry Alpha wolf, whose pack has not eaten in days, that leads a charge to attack and eat is surviving. Law of nature. Nothing evil about it.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno

As god is all that is considered good and all that is considered evil. God is the good and evil in their selves. Everyone is formed within the goods and the evils. On one side it's us, on the other it's natural material phenomenon. All are made in the image of God.

I would rather say that all Gods are made in the image of men. That is more accurate I think but we are on the same page in that man is supreme here and not some fantasy God.

man is derived from the good side of the creator. That means that Adam was created human and a moral being, without or absent of animal traits. The animal traits is what gums up the works-it's the monkey wrench in the gears. The biblical God is the good and the evil. Now bear in mind that good and evil aren't intelligent-they just are. People are the ones that attach the intelligence. There is no such thing as intelligent God unless one attaches "God" to being people. There are examples of this within the book.

So says you.

You "claim" there are examples of this within the book. Hmm, now are these abstract and obscure readings that can be interpreted as such or literal quotes ?

Specific examples please ?

BTW. Humans are animals and animals are not evil.

A hungry Alpha wolf, whose pack has not eaten in days, that leads a charge to attack and eat is surviving. Law of nature. Nothing evil about it.

Most would call it evil but that evil is good.

Let me explain how we all must do some evil.

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin.

Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil is all human generated. Evil is our responsibility.

Much has been written to explain what I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created.

Evil then is only human to human.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, we should all see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us. Wherever it came from. God or nature.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.

man is derived from the good side of the creator. That means that Adam was created human and a moral being, without or absent of animal traits. The animal traits is what gums up the works-it's the monkey wrench in the gears. The biblical God is the good and the evil. Now bear in mind that good and evil aren't intelligent-they just are. People are the ones that attach the intelligence. There is no such thing as intelligent God unless one attaches "God" to being people. There are examples of this within the book.

So says you.

You "claim" there are examples of this within the book. Hmm, now are these abstract and obscure readings that can be interpreted as such or literal quotes ?

Specific examples please ?

BTW. Humans are animals and animals are not evil.

A hungry Alpha wolf, whose pack has not eaten in days, that leads a charge to attack and eat is surviving. Law of nature. Nothing evil about it.

Explain the human side. There is 2 sides to the situation, isn't that so. You merely explained the problem in your world. Can you be different then the Wolf.

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

man is derived from the good side of the creator. That means that Adam was created human and a moral being, without or absent of animal traits. The animal traits is what gums up the works-it's the monkey wrench in the gears. The biblical God is the good and the evil. Now bear in mind that good and evil aren't intelligent-they just are. People are the ones that attach the intelligence. There is no such thing as intelligent God unless one attaches "God" to being people. There are examples of this within the book.

So says you.

You "claim" there are examples of this within the book. Hmm, now are these abstract and obscure readings that can be interpreted as such or literal quotes ?

Specific examples please ?

BTW. Humans are animals and animals are not evil.

A hungry Alpha wolf, whose pack has not eaten in days, that leads a charge to attack and eat is surviving. Law of nature. Nothing evil about it.

good and evil. It did an evil on the Deer to do a good for the Pack. There's nothing wrong with "being" animal, it merely has it's consequences. The "alpha" wolf has a severe superiority complex. Is the wolf pack any different then your society. If you can be as the wolf and then humane to another, would that not make you as God---good and evil. Or- can you be good and evil, if so then you are as written in the book. If the Hebrew God is good and evil and you are too, how can you deny the book is wrong. If the book is a fairy tale then so is everyone.

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

man is derived from the good side of the creator. That means that Adam was created human and a moral being, without or absent of animal traits. The animal traits is what gums up the works-it's the monkey wrench in the gears. The biblical God is the good and the evil. Now bear in mind that good and evil aren't intelligent-they just are. People are the ones that attach the intelligence. There is no such thing as intelligent God unless one attaches "God" to being people. There are examples of this within the book.

So says you.

You "claim" there are examples of this within the book. Hmm, now are these abstract and obscure readings that can be interpreted as such or literal quotes ?

Specific examples please ?

BTW. Humans are animals and animals are not evil.

A hungry Alpha wolf, whose pack has not eaten in days, that leads a charge to attack and eat is surviving. Law of nature. Nothing evil about it.

Most would call it evil but that evil is good.

Let me explain how we all must do some evil.

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”. That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy." But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem. If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin. Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil is all human generated. Evil is our responsibility. Much has been written to explain what I see as a natural part of evolution. Consider. First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created. Evil then is only human to human. As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate. Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil at all times. Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct. This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well. Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, we should all see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us. Wherever it came from. God or nature. There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition. Regards DL

Europeanism. Europeans never were Christians. Claiming to be a Christian doesn't make one. Competition is an animal trait, and one element in the worlds problems. Co-operation is a neutral. One can co-operate for the good or the evil, as in, for human venture or animal venture. There's no such thing as a "Human Animal" Human is human and animal is animal. Even the Wolf has human traits.

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

A rather weird response in any case. Are you not an animal? I am. If your wife says, tonight is the night, If you decide to cooperate, do you go into neutral or do you go into sexy mode? Regards DL

I want to be. There are times I'm an animal and there are times I'm not., Animal is a condition of being and/or state of mind. It looks as you see/recognize animal as a material physical being. What you need to do is look up the definitions of Animal. One definition is-brutish-disagreeable-abrasive etc. It's the one we go by. Brutish extends from attitude or other mental conditions. The body can be a tool of the mind - or the mind can be a tool of the body. One case is physical the other-mental. We deal with the mentals. Now then, I can be an animal if required. I can be a human if I'm not required to be an animal at any given time. You do the same, but you're not aware of it because of your beliefs. I'm a neutral most of the time because there may be no need to be human or animal for periods of time. So, Mostly I am neutral. But-realize that Human, animal, neutral are instances. At any given time anyone is one of these. There is no choice---there's nothing else to be, that's it. When one understands this they can make the same choices as I/we/the team I'm with. One cannot be all three of these at the same time. As states, one can be only one at any given time. Sex is not animal, as it doesn't need an animalistic state of mind to occur. The body is not the animal--the mind is or isn't. I don't have a wife, I don't believe in such. I'm not queer either, I'm me. Understand--you are a product of your world. A world created for you by ancient elder whom---thinking themselves wise became fools. I was raised in that world to, but knowledge of certain things propelled me away from it as all the others in our group. No--we didn't come from Mars. We came from our learnings.

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

A rather weird response in any case. Are you not an animal? I am. If your wife says, tonight is the night, If you decide to cooperate, do you go into neutral or do you go into sexy mode? Regards DL

I want to be. There are times I'm an animal and there are times I'm not., Animal is a condition of being and/or state of mind. It looks as you see/recognize animal as a material physical being. What you need to do is look up the definitions of Animal. One definition is-brutish-disagreeable-abrasive etc. It's the one we go by. Brutish extends from attitude or other mental conditions. The body can be a tool of the mind - or the mind can be a tool of the body. One case is physical the other-mental. We deal with the mentals. Now then, I can be an animal if required. I can be a human if I'm not required to be an animal at any given time. You do the same, but you're not aware of it because of your beliefs. I'm a neutral most of the time because there may be no need to be human or animal for periods of time. So, Mostly I am neutral. But-realize that Human, animal, neutral are instances. At any given time anyone is one of these. There is no choice---there's nothing else to be, that's it. When one understands this they can make the same choices as I/we/the team I'm with. One cannot be all three of these at the same time. As states, one can be only one at any given time. Sex is not animal, as it doesn't need an animalistic state of mind to occur. The body is not the animal--the mind is or isn't. I don't have a wife, I don't believe in such. I'm not queer either, I'm me. Understand--you are a product of your world. A world created for you by ancient elder whom---thinking themselves wise became fools. I was raised in that world to, but knowledge of certain things propelled me away from it as all the others in our group. No--we didn't come from Mars. We came from our learnings.

Old Seer,

I have a couple questions for you that are not meant to attack you or your group, but they don't merit any eloquent writing, so I"ll just be blunt.-

1. Why are you here? I only ask because you speak as if you have some agenda. You've never started a thread of your own. Why not just spit it out and make an original post with a mission statement instead of posts here and there within threads that sound as if you are infiltrating?

2. Why is this group of yours so secret? Does it have a name and/or a leader or leaders? Do you fancy yourselves as to be so vital to the way the world and the future that anyone here or any government agency would really find you worthy of any serious attention?

If you are worthy of such-why? and why can't you tell us? No harm in telling us if we don't know who you are.

3. You speak of "learnings" and "the book" and so forth. Do you have a written doctrine? I've heard you speak as if the bible was legit before translation. You constantly say "We believe" etc. I would think if you speak as if the members of your group agree on so much that you would all at least agree on one piece of literature that you could divulge.

4. What other types of forums do you and your group infiltrate (or whatever it is that you do)? Why atheists?

5. How did you come about this group? and surely someone had to start it?

I only ask you these things because of the sarcastic remarks i made to one of your posts and your reply. I certainly do not find it worth the effort to go back track you thru past threads (none of which you started) to understand why and where you are coming from, when you are the one who speaks somewhat elusively.

I would think if you answered these kinds of questions then your posts may get better replies.

Or don't, -it's your story. I was just wondering.

"...but truth is a point of view, and so it is changeable. And to rule by fettering the mind through fear of punishment in another world is just as base as to use force." -Hypatia

I have a couple questions for you that are not meant to attack you or your group, but they don't merit any eloquent writing, so I"ll just be blunt.-

1. Why are you here? I only ask because you speak as if you have some agenda. You've never started a thread of your own. Why not just spit it out and make an original post with a mission statement instead of posts here and there within threads that sound as if you are infiltrating?

2. Why is this group of yours so secret? Does it have a name and/or a leader or leaders? Do you fancy yourselves as to be so vital to the way the world and the future that anyone here or any government agency would really find you worthy of any serious attention?

If you are worthy of such-why? and why can't you tell us? No harm in telling us if we don't know who you are.

3. You speak of "learnings" and "the book" and so forth. Do you have a written doctrine? I've heard you speak as if the bible was legit before translation. You constantly say "We believe" etc. I would think if you speak as if the members of your group agree on so much that you would all at least agree on one piece of literature that you could divulge.

4. What other types of forums do you and your group infiltrate (or whatever it is that you do)? Why atheists?

5. How did you come about this group? and surely someone had to start it?

I only ask you these things because of the sarcastic remarks i made to one of your posts and your reply. I certainly do not find it worth the effort to go back track you thru past threads (none of which you started) to understand why and where you are coming from, when you are the one who speaks somewhat elusively.

I would think if you answered these kinds of questions then your posts may get better replies.

Or don't, -it's your story. I was just wondering.

My guess is, that you'll get more elusiveness.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno

A rather weird response in any case. Are you not an animal? I am. If your wife says, tonight is the night, If you decide to cooperate, do you go into neutral or do you go into sexy mode? Regards DL

I want to be. There are times I'm an animal and there are times I'm not., Animal is a condition of being and/or state of mind. It looks as you see/recognize animal as a material physical being. What you need to do is look up the definitions of Animal. One definition is-brutish-disagreeable-abrasive etc. It's the one we go by. Brutish extends from attitude or other mental conditions. The body can be a tool of the mind - or the mind can be a tool of the body. One case is physical the other-mental. We deal with the mentals. Now then, I can be an animal if required. I can be a human if I'm not required to be an animal at any given time. You do the same, but you're not aware of it because of your beliefs. I'm a neutral most of the time because there may be no need to be human or animal for periods of time. So, Mostly I am neutral. But-realize that Human, animal, neutral are instances. At any given time anyone is one of these. There is no choice---there's nothing else to be, that's it. When one understands this they can make the same choices as I/we/the team I'm with. One cannot be all three of these at the same time. As states, one can be only one at any given time. Sex is not animal, as it doesn't need an animalistic state of mind to occur. The body is not the animal--the mind is or isn't. I don't have a wife, I don't believe in such. I'm not queer either, I'm me. Understand--you are a product of your world. A world created for you by ancient elder whom---thinking themselves wise became fools. I was raised in that world to, but knowledge of certain things propelled me away from it as all the others in our group. No--we didn't come from Mars. We came from our learnings.

Old Seer,

I have a couple questions for you that are not meant to attack you or your group, but they don't merit any eloquent writing, so I"ll just be blunt.-

1. Why are you here? I only ask because you speak as if you have some agenda. You've never started a thread of your own. Why not just spit it out and make an original post with a mission statement instead of posts here and there within threads that sound as if you are infiltrating?

2. Why is this group of yours so secret? Does it have a name and/or a leader or leaders? Do you fancy yourselves as to be so vital to the way the world and the future that anyone here or any government agency would really find you worthy of any serious attention?

If you are worthy of such-why? and why can't you tell us? No harm in telling us if we don't know who you are.

3. You speak of "learnings" and "the book" and so forth. Do you have a written doctrine? I've heard you speak as if the bible was legit before translation. You constantly say "We believe" etc. I would think if you speak as if the members of your group agree on so much that you would all at least agree on one piece of literature that you could divulge.

4. What other types of forums do you and your group infiltrate (or whatever it is that you do)? Why atheists?

5. How did you come about this group? and surely someone had to start it?

I only ask you these things because of the sarcastic remarks i made to one of your posts and your reply. I certainly do not find it worth the effort to go back track you thru past threads (none of which you started) to understand why and where you are coming from, when you are the one who speaks somewhat elusively.

I would think if you answered these kinds of questions then your posts may get better replies.

Or don't, -it's your story. I was just wondering.

1- I'm here at the request of the others of the team, because I am the one with the best wording ability to explain things. But that's not what your question is about--- I am here to let off the info from our studies. Yes -I am infiltrating but I didn't see it that way, but since you put it in that term I have to concur. There is a reason for this. We don't want to become part of any group, not that we think we're better then others, it's to keep a distance as not to be influenced. When becoming part of a group it is expediant to take on it's philosophies and beliefs. We don't want to be phonies by pretending to be compatible. Don't worry, it's not because others don't take a shower every day. Floks are just fine. The posts here and there are because it's an easier take off if from another,s input. Why not just spit it out--OK, but it would amount to writing another book as large as the dictionary. It would be to long of a posting. Why not start a thread of my own. ---I thought of that but-- I stated a thread ( The Seer,s Corner ) on a Christian site and it only produced a few posts. It was proven they weren't Christians. The questions I posed couldn't be answered. If they were Christians they could have answered them. They were stumped. The same may happen here. We don;t want to give the impression we think you're all stupid, which is another reason we are here, you're not stupid. I was told when assigned you here are good thinkers. What better floks to hand the ball off to.

2- Secrecy is a must. consider---the Apostles marched into Rome preaching a new religion--and got killed for it. Only two of us are public. If something happens to us there's others left. Once they (Apostles)were gone their religion disappeared with them. We're insuring that it stays this time around. This will be the last time around, the world cannot sustain another 2000 years of what's been going on. B-We reffer to ourselves as Guardians. It's nothing special, it' only because we have taken measure to guard what we know. Guardian is not a label or name- it's job/assignment that's understood. C- there are no leaders. We no longer are in need of being led. No one seeks authority or advantage over another within or outside the group. If we all understand the same it becomes impossible for one to lead, there's nothing to lead on. . We no longer are in close touch with each other. We are scattered throughout the country. I live in an RV and travel quite a bit, the others do the same.There's' no reason to be close anymore, the studies were completed in the summer of 1992. We are retired or close to. D- Vital- no, not to the world as it is, but vital to making sure one remains. E- Government: no danger from them at present. Bear in mind-it was civil government that killed JC and followers and a bunch of others. We will in the future be a threat to Government. That's was/is the mission of Christianity, to remove central government. That happens when people see that "it" is the seat of the world problems. When floks begin to understand that government will be looking for us. It's already to late for government to remove what we know. It's already in to many places for to long. We made sure of that before putting anything in plain sight or in mass public view. The Apostles cover this by---feed a baby a spoonful at a time so as not to choke the baby. But, we can choke the baby if the gov makes it necessary. On the other hand the gov may leave us alone for fear of reprisal by the people. But, will get it from the people either way. That's what the book of Rev is partially about.

3- Learnings. In this case the book is the bible. We don't like the term "Bible". We say book or document. "Bible" is over-used and can bring negative reactions from some. B- we don't have any special doctrines or codes. There are doctrines everyone has from nature, such as - we hold these truths to be self evident- You know where that is from, right. Those self evident truths are natural doctrine. There's no need to invent any. C- Literature- We don't posses any literature that we can present. We haven't compiled any. Any literature we dealt with was in libraries or public documents that we didn't own . We did have copies of Egyptian writings and sample (photos) of Egyptian Glyphs, but we have no need anymore to use or keep them. Our studies are over. We were never in close proxsimity to each other, at least I wasn't.

4- Other forms- I was on two other Atheist forums and three Christians forums for a while. It got so I didn't know where I was and reduced the total back to this one. I couldn't keep up with it. B- Why Atheists-- After looking over this forum the other guys sent me here. We were looking ( as I see it now) for a place, a people, a group, to give our info to. We want others to know what we know, form there, if they understand, they would propagate it. Moreover we are obligated to inform others. If I walk by your house and your car is burning I'm obligated to knock on your door and inform you. We say Atheists are good thinkers. If what we have is true they'll find it. 5- I came by the group while having lunch a a local eatery. One of them was passing through and we got into a conversation at the bar. He was a salesman covering Wisconsin, Minnesota, Iowa, North and South Dakota, and a member of an adventure and explorer club. The club was of 2 Psycho smurfs a physics smurf etc. he called it a smuffdom because the smurfs were on TV at the time (1985). Me being a bible scholar and physicist I presented my problem with Biblical Creation. I thought that was the end of it and forgot about it. A month later the waitress handed me a packet of papers and----we were off and on the way. Eight years later we were done.

I'm not elusive as I would say. This is new stuff but very old/ancient. What you think as elusive may be unfamiliarity. There was a time we were the same. What's needed to realize is that ancient floks weren't stupid, People of today are easily fooled on ancient people because of todays material accomplishments. The writers of ancient documents throughout the middle east weren't about material undertakings. They had people figured out. Prophecy is simple . If you know how people think you can determine the end result. Thinking in a particular way will bring about the consequences of that directly correspond to it.

Questions---nobody has been asking these kinds of question. I've been waiting-it's my assignment. Danatemporary asked a few the other day but I couldn't figure out how the messaging works, she has my apologies.

Thank you for asking. Regards.

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

I note that you are saying that you were selected for your communication skills. You are wordy but not skilled. Regards DL

I am guessing that there is no such group. If the group was that secret, members would never hint of it's existence. They would spread around their opinions and "find" who was needing to be let in or not.

The IRA in northern Ireland doesn't go around throwing terms like "we are among you" on the streets. In fact, they claim that no such organization exists despite the fact the war is still ongoing, just not as extreme as it used to be. Any acts of aggression are labeled by the media as " a few dissidents that are not organized".

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno

I note that you are saying that you were selected for your communication skills. You are wordy but not skilled. Regards DL

I am guessing that there is no such group. If the group was that secret, members would never hint of it's existence. They would spread around their opinions and "find" who was needing to be let in or not.

The IRA in northern Ireland doesn't go around throwing terms like "we are among you" on the streets. In fact, they claim that no such organization exists despite the fact the war is still ongoing, just not as extreme as it used to be. Any acts of aggression are labeled by the media as " a few dissidents that are not organized".

I do not usually get into the personal. I do not like it for myself nor for other because a lot of it becomes useless psychobabble.

We are all in this together, alone but no one wants to be alone. Not surprising and quite normal that.

I note that you are saying that you were selected for your communication skills. You are wordy but not skilled. Regards DL

I am guessing that there is no such group. If the group was that secret, members would never hint of it's existence. They would spread around their opinions and "find" who was needing to be let in or not.

The IRA in northern Ireland doesn't go around throwing terms like "we are among you" on the streets. In fact, they claim that no such organization exists despite the fact the war is still ongoing, just not as extreme as it used to be. Any acts of aggression are labeled by the media as " a few dissidents that are not organized".

I do not usually get into the personal. I do not like it for myself nor for other because a lot of it becomes useless psychobabble. We are all in this together, alone but no one wants to be alone. Not surprising and quite normal that. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Oww4Ap3YZA Most of us will lead rather mundane lives and use all kinds of imaginary self-delusions to try to spice up our lives. Some do it more than others. A secret society is a good example of this. Fear and the secrecy of secret societies stimulate our egos and that is why so many of us use these on ourselves. So much for my useless psychobabble. Let us not forget. Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt Regards DL

You haven't taken time to figure things out--yet. I'm not here to argue. The info is for your own analysis and acceptance or rejection. No one person can figure out the book on their own. It takes/took the input and reasoning beyond just a single person. I've been a bible scholar for decades and couldn't get it understood. You're saying I figured out something on my own that I couldn't figure out on my own. Eleanor R was referring to gossip. If she's correct from your point of view then Psycho smurfs have small minds. Great minds discuss Ideas---that's what I,m attempting to do.

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

I note that you are saying that you were selected for your communication skills. You are wordy but not skilled. Regards DL

I am guessing that there is no such group. If the group was that secret, members would never hint of it's existence. They would spread around their opinions and "find" who was needing to be let in or not.

The IRA in northern Ireland doesn't go around throwing terms like "we are among you" on the streets. In fact, they claim that no such organization exists despite the fact the war is still ongoing, just not as extreme as it used to be. Any acts of aggression are labeled by the media as " a few dissidents that are not organized".

There's more to it then you realize. Part of the secrecy is so were not followed--that is, generate a following. While we're not Christians at this point in time we know that Christians aren't followers. After learning one is on their own. One only follows until they understand. We're not clergyman, there are no clergyman in the group. It's not a secret group per sec. It's about not be located or where-about known. I couldn't find them myself, I don't know where any of them would be. They're not all in RVs but most are. I owned 20 acres with a house. I "gave" it to my oldest daughter and now I'm in an RV. Others sold the farm (so to speak) and got RVs. That can't be to hard to understand. Most retired floks are doing the same. The intent is to give the info and let others do as they will with it. Our world is no longer one of being the boss. If you don't think we exist--good-- that's the way we want it. We don't have domination or superiority complexes anymore, maybe that's why we seem/are strange. If one gives up or leaves off on those things he becomes a different person.

My goodness---communication skills- I'm a writer among other endeavors. Now I have to seem like I'm bragging just to get things explained. I wrote two screen plays based on USMC ideas. One screenplay was reviewed by R Lee Ermey (DI in Full Metal Jacket) and he thought it was great. So, I'm a writer. Don't get the idea that Ermey and I are close buddies--we're not. we are acquainted. I didn't say I was the best writer in the world, I'm the best in the group with the ability and patience to convey an idea in writing, not the whole world.

What you may need to do is search out all my posts, analyze them, and see what you can find. There, see. We don't say "believe us" we say analyze. If you criticize and not analyze then on what basis does one criticize. We're not fearful of scrutiny.

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

Why do you not want to spread this better version of the bible? Why not show us the superior and pure nature of your faith?

I'll believe it when I see it. Before that, you are just talking big with nothing to back it up.

That's the reason I'm here. We're not trying to convert anyone. From the info one converts them self, it's automatic.

I can only advise to search out my postings. We're not trying to convince anyone. We're relying on your inquisitiveness to search out and convince yourself. This may be stupid but--it's a, you won't know where your,re going until you get there deal. We know because that's how it happened to us. It's crazy but that's how it works. It has to be researched by you. There is no other way because it's unfamiliar territory. It's not going to be easy. It's a puzzle that after a certain number of pieces the puzzle begins to put itself together.

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

That's the reason I'm here. We're not trying to convert anyone. From the info one converts them self, it's automatic.

I can only advise to search out my postings. We're not trying to convince anyone. We're relying on your inquisitiveness to search out and convince yourself. This may be stupid but--it's a, you won't know where your,re going until you get there deal. We know because that's how it happened to us. It's crazy but that's how it works. It has to be researched by you. There is no other way because it's unfamiliar territory. It's not going to be easy. It's a puzzle that after a certain number of pieces the puzzle begins to put itself together.

So far, I haven't seen any info worth getting excited about. Or thinking about. Or reading your inane posts about. The movie was better ---

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.

Why do you not want to spread this better version of the bible? Why not show us the superior and pure nature of your faith?

I'll believe it when I see it. Before that, you are just talking big with nothing to back it up.

That's the reason I'm here. We're not trying to convert anyone. From the info one converts them self, it's automatic.

I can only advise to search out my postings. We're not trying to convince anyone. We're relying on your inquisitiveness to search out and convince yourself. This may be stupid but--it's a, you won't know where your,re going until you get there deal. We know because that's how it happened to us. It's crazy but that's how it works. It has to be researched by you. There is no other way because it's unfamiliar territory. It's not going to be easy. It's a puzzle that after a certain number of pieces the puzzle begins to put itself together.

I think it is nice you aren't trying to convert people, but you aren't actually posting anything of actualy substance. All you are doing is posting cryptic or vague remarks about some superior bible and how you and your friends know you are better christians for some unstated reason.

Why do you not want to spread this better version of the bible? Why not show us the superior and pure nature of your faith?

I'll believe it when I see it. Before that, you are just talking big with nothing to back it up.

That's the reason I'm here. We're not trying to convert anyone. From the info one converts them self, it's automatic.

I can only advise to search out my postings. We're not trying to convince anyone. We're relying on your inquisitiveness to search out and convince yourself. This may be stupid but--it's a, you won't know where your,re going until you get there deal. We know because that's how it happened to us. It's crazy but that's how it works. It has to be researched by you. There is no other way because it's unfamiliar territory. It's not going to be easy. It's a puzzle that after a certain number of pieces the puzzle begins to put itself together.

I think it is nice you aren't trying to convert people, but you aren't actually posting anything of actualy substance. All you are doing is posting cryptic or vague remarks about some superior bible and how you and your friends know you are better christians for some unstated reason.

you may see tomorrow. You have to search out my posts. There's a bunch of them. It can take thousands of words to explain something simple. To honor your request I would be here for days on one post. It's one reason I didn't initiate a new tread.

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

What do you find surprising about not being able to understand a book made up of plagiarized saying form older books of wisdom that were all culture based? What is surprising about not having access to the thinking of men of 3,000 years ago? Get out of 112 and try to be in 2012. Regards DL

take this as your point of view. But that's OK. I said it's not going to be easy.

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

Why do you not want to spread this better version of the bible? Why not show us the superior and pure nature of your faith?

I'll believe it when I see it. Before that, you are just talking big with nothing to back it up.

That's the reason I'm here. We're not trying to convert anyone. From the info one converts them self, it's automatic.

I can only advise to search out my postings. We're not trying to convince anyone. We're relying on your inquisitiveness to search out and convince yourself. This may be stupid but--it's a, you won't know where your,re going until you get there deal. We know because that's how it happened to us. It's crazy but that's how it works. It has to be researched by you. There is no other way because it's unfamiliar territory. It's not going to be easy. It's a puzzle that after a certain number of pieces the puzzle begins to put itself together.

I think it is nice you aren't trying to convert people, but you aren't actually posting anything of actualy substance. All you are doing is posting cryptic or vague remarks about some superior bible and how you and your friends know you are better christians for some unstated reason.

you may see tomorrow. You have to search out my posts. There's a bunch of them. It can take thousands of words to explain something simple. To honor your request I would be here for days on one post. It's one reason I didn't initiate a new tread.

Your post is as confusing as ever, but do you really expect me to sift through all your cryptic posts looking for YOUR evidence for you? No Thanks.

Your post is as confusing as ever, but do you really expect me to sift through all your cryptic posts looking for YOUR evidence for you? No Thanks.

Just imagine how confused you would be if they didn't send the one who is good at communicating. For the record, I am confused too, but it has been proclaimed that I am functionally illiterate.

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X

Just imagine how confused you would be if they didn't send the one who is good at communicating. For the record, I am confused too, but it has been proclaimed that I am functionally illiterate.

No wonder they don't seek to recruit people and drive RV's.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno

Your post is as confusing as ever, but do you really expect me to sift through all your cryptic posts looking for YOUR evidence for you? No Thanks.

Just imagine how confused you would be if they didn't send the one who is good at communicating. For the record, I am confused too, but it has been proclaimed that I am functionally illiterate.

I don't expect you to. As I run my life I expect you to run yours. You're not functionally illiterate. But it's impractical for me to re-post all that in one place. I don't want you to find evidence for me, it's there to find for yourself.

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

Why do you not want to spread this better version of the bible? Why not show us the superior and pure nature of your faith?

I'll believe it when I see it. Before that, you are just talking big with nothing to back it up.

That's the reason I'm here. We're not trying to convert anyone. From the info one converts them self, it's automatic.

I can only advise to search out my postings. We're not trying to convince anyone. We're relying on your inquisitiveness to search out and convince yourself. This may be stupid but--it's a, you won't know where your,re going until you get there deal. We know because that's how it happened to us. It's crazy but that's how it works. It has to be researched by you. There is no other way because it's unfamiliar territory. It's not going to be easy. It's a puzzle that after a certain number of pieces the puzzle begins to put itself together.

I think it is nice you aren't trying to convert people, but you aren't actually posting anything of actualy substance. All you are doing is posting cryptic or vague remarks about some superior bible and how you and your friends know you are better christians for some unstated reason.

you may see tomorrow. You have to search out my posts. There's a bunch of them. It can take thousands of words to explain something simple. To honor your request I would be here for days on one post. It's one reason I didn't initiate a new tread.

Your post is as confusing as ever, but do you really expect me to sift through all your cryptic posts looking for YOUR evidence for you? No Thanks.

Search out the evidence if you don't care to. Another may be able to understand it. I can't be interested for you, you have to be interested for yourself. I don't expect you to sift through it. It's there for someone who may be interested. If it's of no interest to you all I can say is leave it be.

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

Your post is as confusing as ever, but do you really expect me to sift through all your cryptic posts looking for YOUR evidence for you? No Thanks.

What he said.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno

I don't expect you to sift through it. It's there for someone who may be interested. If it's of no interest to you all I can say is leave it be.

Sounds like a plan to me.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno

Why do you not want to spread this better version of the bible? Why not show us the superior and pure nature of your faith?

I'll believe it when I see it. Before that, you are just talking big with nothing to back it up.

That's the reason I'm here. We're not trying to convert anyone. From the info one converts them self, it's automatic.

I can only advise to search out my postings. We're not trying to convince anyone. We're relying on your inquisitiveness to search out and convince yourself. This may be stupid but--it's a, you won't know where your,re going until you get there deal. We know because that's how it happened to us. It's crazy but that's how it works. It has to be researched by you. There is no other way because it's unfamiliar territory. It's not going to be easy. It's a puzzle that after a certain number of pieces the puzzle begins to put itself together.

I think it is nice you aren't trying to convert people, but you aren't actually posting anything of actualy substance. All you are doing is posting cryptic or vague remarks about some superior bible and how you and your friends know you are better christians for some unstated reason.

you may see tomorrow. You have to search out my posts. There's a bunch of them. It can take thousands of words to explain something simple. To honor your request I would be here for days on one post. It's one reason I didn't initiate a new tread.

Your post is as confusing as ever, but do you really expect me to sift through all your cryptic posts looking for YOUR evidence for you? No Thanks.

Search out the evidence if you don't care to. Another may be able to understand it. I can't be interested for you, you have to be interested for yourself. I don't expect you to sift through it. It's there for someone who may be interested. If it's of no interest to you all I can say is leave it be.

Sorry, but I'm not going to go on a wild goose chase through your posts. Either tell us a short summary of your views, and allow us to discuss them with you, or don't. But do not expect us to go out to find a needle in the haystack of your confusing writings.

I just realized that I/we will have hi-jacked this thread if we continue on here, so I wonder if you would like to continue this conversation(ALL ARE WELCOME of course) in a thread I started long ago that posed a simple question that no theist or christian has ever given me a reply to even outside of that thread. I will comment more over there. http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/31970 "For araujo" -Disregard my attitude toward him in my opening post. He was an ass.

Thank you for your reply to my question. I will copy and paste it to the other thread. I hope you don't mind.

"...but truth is a point of view, and so it is changeable. And to rule by fettering the mind through fear of punishment in another world is just as base as to use force." -Hypatia

I just realized that I/we will have hi-jacked this thread if we continue on here, so I wonder if you would like to continue this conversation(ALL ARE WELCOME of course) in a thread I started long ago that posed a simple question that no theist or christian has ever given me a reply to even outside of that thread. I will comment more over there. http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/31970 "For araujo" -Disregard my attitude toward him in my opening post. He was an ass.

Thank you for your reply to my question. I will copy and paste it to the other thread. I hope you don't mind.

I'll be happy to.

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.