As I said before, it's just a bunch of crazed GSM fanbois mostly talking about their $600 unbranded N series phones. It is meaningless for the general public who could care less about premium unbranded cell phones.

@Samab,

99.9999999% of all you have said is correct but this statement is off the mark. Europeans, even many Middle Easterners are quite content to pay premium prices for a premium service device. The iPhone is a premium price device offering medium price functionality. My most basic Nokia out performs the iPhone in pure specs. If you stripped the iPhone of the UI and got down to the basics, it is a 3 year old phone. Touch UI's have been around in SE and Nokia phones and devices for a while. Not that there is an uptake, and the devices are more mainstream, Nokia and SE will simply ramp up and produce them as well. Apple simply evolved an already used technology. It is not revolutionary.

[i]Along with over ordering - over charging what the market would be willing to bear for phone and tariff.

Unstable in its business model.

Google does not want this for Android. Which ironically is based on Linux.

Come on now. BREW and OS X are not in the same class of development platforms at all. The hardware running the LG Voyager is not the same as the hardware powering the iPhone. You get what you pay for.

From the examples of what we've seen the iPhone SDK will be worth the wait.

Over-ordering --- based on Apple's sales projection numbers. Little did these carriers know that 50% of those shipment numbers that Apple was announcing were going to China and Russia. Over charging --- based on Apple's revenue sharing business model. Notice the first thing Orange execs are asking for is killing the revenue share in exchange for lowering handset price.

There are a million different mobile OS platforms --- they are all surviving. Nothing to do with business models at all if Blackberry can survive with a 14 million users and Apple shooting with 1% of the world's market. Google could have produced their own proprietary mobile OS platform and survive on its own. It is more sinister for them to wrap themselves in open source hype when all we know it is against every open source principle to force a non-fragmentation agreement onto a project in which Google forked from Java ME in the first place.

Of course Google doesn't want that for Android --- they want to make money off of it. RedHat is worth only $3 billion as a company. Google is worth 50 times as much. There is no money on open source OS, but there is a lot of money of mobile API platforms.

OSX and BREW are not in the same class --- precisely --- one is based on a server kernel and the other is built specifically for resource constrained embedded phone hardware. Which one is better for the phone --- the OS that is designed for the phone, not a giant server. The hardware is the same on any highend cell phone --- it's a ARM11/ARM9 combo --- doesn't matter whether it's a N series phone, a iphone or a highend Qualcomm CDMA phone.

Read the first three paragraphs of the first link. I did not even bother with the second link. When Apple can surpass Nokia, then you have my interest. Unless Apple adapts to the world outside of the US, the iPhone will continue to fail. Your argument is similar to those who continue to think that football (soccer) will never be popular until it is adopted by Americans. 3 plus Billion (with a B) will disagree with you. Apple thought the same tactics that applied in the US will fly over in Europe. The fact remains that for the most part, European phone subscribers are generally more evolved and sophisticated in terms of functionality, usages, services, etc... than their American counterparts. Apple missed this fact and now it has come back to bite them.

My most basic Nokia out performs the iPhone in pure specs. If you stripped the iPhone of the UI and got down to the basics, it is a 3 year old phone. Touch UI's have been around in SE and Nokia phones and devices for a while. Not that there is an uptake, and the devices are more mainstream,

Nokia's have longer feature lists, but not necessarily better performance.

Nokia phones don't use a desktop OS with desktop API's and applications.

Most all other touchscreen UI are rudimentary in comparison to the iPhone design. This is why they have never really been very popular.

Over-ordering --- based on Apple's sales projection numbers. Little did these carriers know that 50% of those shipment numbers that Apple was announcing were going to China and Russia.

The only sales projections Apple publicly gave were 1% of the mobile phone market in 2008.

What other numbers are you citing?

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Over charging --- based on Apple's revenue sharing business model. Notice the first thing Orange execs are asking for is killing the revenue share in exchange for lowering handset price.

Its unclear if this is the problem as O2 lowered its tariff price after it was shown they were charging too much. AT&T is having no problem and has found a price the market is willing to bear with revenue sharing.

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OSX and BREW are not in the same class --- precisely --- one is based on a server kernel and the other is built specifically for resource constrained embedded phone hardware. Which one is better for the phone --- the OS that is designed for the phone, not a giant server.

Samab now you are just reaching for complaints. Apple designed OS X to be scalable and modular. They simply remove the parts of the OS that are not needed for a phone. Are you really that stubborn to not admit the wisdom of how Apple designed OS X and its strengths.

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The hardware is the same on any highend cell phone --- it's a ARM11/ARM9 combo --- doesn't matter whether it's a N series phone, a iphone or a highend Qualcomm CDMA phone.

No the hardware is not all the same. Most all computers use Intel processors but they are not all the same.

There clearly is a difference when a faster processor can render complex graphics faster. Or render full HTML web pages faster.

The only sales projections Apple publicly gave were 1% of the mobile phone market in 2008.

What other numbers are you citing?

Its unclear if this is the problem as O2 lowered its tariff price after it was shown they were charging too much. AT&T is having no problem and has found a price the market is willing to bear with revenue sharing.

Samab now you are just reaching for complaints. Apple designed OS X to be scalable and modular. They simply remove the parts of the OS that are not needed for a phone. Are you really that stubborn to not admit the wisdom of how Apple designed OS X and its strengths.

No the hardware is not all the same. Most all computers use Intel processors but they are not all the same.

There clearly is a difference when a faster processor can render complex graphics faster. Or render full HTML web pages faster.

There clearly is difference with more internal storage.

There clearly is a difference when you have a larger brighter screen.

There clearly is a difference when you have longer battery life.

And I'll add to that that there is clearly a difference when the apps are seamlessly integrated so that discovery by a non-technical user is trivial.

That's the real genius of the iPhone-- it's mobile computing device that my mom can use. My mom cannot use an N95-- and haters, save your braying about great the Nokia interface is, you know it's true.

As it stands, the iPhone is still too expensive to go critical mass and explode the platform, but Apple is obviously going to address that. When they do.... they start getting people who didn't think they even wanted a "smart phone", because they can't even figure out how to use all the "features" on their dumb phone.

It's an OS X device. It's a platform on the same code base as Apple's desktop software. Hardware just gets more powerful. People who are hung up on things like phone feature lists or "it's just an expensive iPod with a phone" are astonishingly clueless.

They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.

The only sales projections Apple publicly gave were 1% of the mobile phone market in 2008.

What other numbers are you citing?

Its unclear if this is the problem as O2 lowered its tariff price after it was shown they were charging too much. AT&T is having no problem and has found a price the market is willing to bear with revenue sharing.

Samab now you are just reaching for complaints. Apple designed OS X to be scalable and modular. They simply remove the parts of the OS that are not needed for a phone. Are you really that stubborn to not admit the wisdom of how Apple designed OS X and its strengths.

No the hardware is not all the same. Most all computers use Intel processors but they are not all the same.

There clearly is a difference when a faster processor can render complex graphics faster. Or render full HTML web pages faster.

There clearly is difference with more internal storage.

There clearly is a difference when you have a larger brighter screen.

There clearly is a difference when you have longer battery life.

Windows XP is scaleable as well -- that's why Microsoft sells XP Embedded --- whether that does the job is another thing. All the other "real" mobile OS'es were designed to scale down to kilobytes of memory. Apple has to license an OS from a 3rd party for the ipod --- because OSX can't scale down that low.

For 20 years, Mac users have been saying that they didn't really lose the Mhz war --- because they have better OS'es than Microsoft --- so they don't need faster CPU's to achieve the same thing. I still remember my Mac SE/30 with a giant Radius 2 page greyscale monitor. Now it's the other way around, the other mobile OS'es are built for cell phones and can use slower CPU with fewer memory.

It is the most expensive iPod with phone option ever because that is all it is, an iPod with phone.

WRONG- NO IT IS NOT. YOU DON'T NEED A CONTRACT WITH AT&T FOR AN IPOD . It is a cellphone !!!!!!!! Stop spreading that BS!! Is is a cellphone with iPod qualities. An iPhone is compared with CELLPHONES/SMARTPHONES not portable audio/ MP3 devices.

Windows XP is scaleable as well -- that's why Microsoft sells XP Embedded --- whether that does the job is another thing. All the other "real" mobile OS'es were designed to scale down to kilobytes of memory. Apple has to license an OS from a 3rd party for the ipod --- because OSX can't scale down that low.

For 20 years, Mac users have been saying that they didn't really lose the Mhz war --- because they have better OS'es than Microsoft --- so they don't need faster CPU's to achieve the same thing. I still remember my Mac SE/30 with a giant Radius 2 page greyscale monitor. Now it's the other way around, the other mobile OS'es are built for cell phones and can use slower CPU with fewer memory.

You've got this exactly backward. Apple didn't introduce a mobile computing device until the hardware could support a version of OS X. Going forward, hardware just gets more capable, which means it's all upside for Apple

Purpose built mobile OSes, on the other hand, are going to find it increasingly difficult to scale up.

Your thoughts on Windows Embedded, the iPod classic OS and the iPhone's allegedly "slow" OS make no sense whatsoever.

Windows scales somewhat, but not to CE class devices. Nobody thinks the iPhone's OS is slow, I'm amazed you'd even go there. And why in the world would you cite the iPod classic's OS as evidence of Apple's inability to scale OS X when we're talking about the iPhone?

Or are you under the impression that CPU speed and memory on handheld devices are justing going to hold still, so the competition will be to see who can run some semblance of an OS on the least capable hardware available now?

They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.

Nokia's have longer feature lists, but not necessarily better performance.

No one said it did but the N82 can out perform the iPhone in the basic of TELEPHONY functions. Can you send more than one SMS at a time? Can you do a VoIP call? How about taking an SMS received and converting that to a phone number? How about storing files to send later as vCards (the industry standard)? These very simple things I detailed are important in a biz phone and included in ALL smart phones. The iPhone can do NONE of these. Not one. Now with Skype VoIP is possible but your phone has to be jailbroken to do even this simple thing.

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Nokia phones don't use a desktop OS with desktop API's and applications.

Your argument is pretty thin. Symbian is the perfect OS for what it does in Nokia and other phones.

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Most all other touchscreen UI are rudimentary in comparison to the iPhone design. This is why they have never really been very popular.

Nokia phones have the accelerometer feature minus the zooming functionality. It is a matter now of implementing it. Apple didn't invent this technology. They bought it.

The processing power in my N82 for what it does is more than enough and outmatches the iPhone. I can use the GPS, listen to the media player, and make a call all at the same time. The iPhone can't multi-task because it is designed not to.

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This has been said for a year and a half now. When is it going to happen?

Some of you zealot lemmings said the iPhone would kill all other phones as well, and we can see from the news that this just ain't so. The GSM congress is coming as well as some the new lauchning season. We will see what both bring. Maybe Apple will get smart and hire some Nokia guys to show them how to design a premium phone with premium functionality.

WRONG- NO IT IS NOT. YOU DON'T NEED A CONTRACT WITH AT&T FOR AN IPOD . It is a cellphone !!!!!!!! Stop spreading that BS!! Is is a cellphone with iPod qualities. An iPhone is compared with CELLPHONES/SMARTPHONES not portable audio/ MP3 devices.

One word: DOH!!!!!!!

Here is a simple questionnaire for you:

1. Can the iPhone do MMS?
2. Can the iPhone send more multiple SMS?
3. Can the iPhone do a VoIP call without being jail-broken and using Skype?
4. Can it store files to send later as an email?
5. What is the megapixel of the camera?
6. Can it play games?
7. Can it send vCards or support OBEX?

I can go on and on and continue to embarrass you if you like. My iPod Touch can't do any of these except use Skype but then again it was designed as an iPod, not and iPhone. The iPhone can not do any of these things either and it was designed as a phone. Sooooooooo, smell the coffee. My statement still stands. The iPhone is an iPod with some rudimentary phoning features.

1. Can the iPhone do MMS?
2. Can the iPhone send more multiple SMS?
3. Can the iPhone do a VoIP call without being jail-broken and using Skype?
4. Can it store files to send later as an email?
5. What is the megapixel of the camera?
6. Can it play games?
7. Can it send vCards or support OBEX?

I can go on and on and continue to embarrass you if you like. My iPod Touch can't do any of these except use Skype but then again it was designed as an iPod, not and iPhone. The iPhone can not do any of these things either and it was designed as a phone. Sooooooooo, smell the coffee. My statement still stands. The iPhone is an iPod with some rudimentary phoning features.

The iPhone is the first iteration of a general purpose computing platform that is designed around portability, a multi-touch interface and ubiquitous connectivity.

The "rudimentary" phone features that you are so hung up on are the end result of a series of tradeoffs and choices that Apple made, driven by criteria such as size, battery life, ease of use and application integration. You may not care for some of those tradeoffs, but Apple had its reasons for all of them.

The months to come will bring a flood of new apps from third party developers, as well as further refinements and enhancements of the platform by Apple itself.

How you get "it's just an iPod with some phone stuff tossed on" out of all of that is very mysterious to me.

They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.

The iPhone is the first iteration of a general purpose computing platform that is designed around portability, a multi-touch interface and ubiquitous connectivity.

Okay, here goes. Did I say that these were not good features? I was/am/wil be talking about telephony features

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The "rudimentary" phone features that you are so hung up on are the end result of a series of tradeoffs and choices that Apple made, driven by criteria such as size, battery life, ease of use and application integration. You may not care for some of those tradeoffs, but Apple had its reasons for all of them.

Tradeoffs? Really? Do you honestly have any experience with a high-end phone? I ask this seriously. These so called "rudimentary" features are basic in all devices sans the iPhone in all devices that claim to be phones. These tradeoffs are all software driven, minus the camera so your argument is baseless.

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The months to come will bring a flood of new apps from third party developers, as well as further refinements and enhancements of the platform by Apple itself.

You can have them now if you do not mind jailbreaking you phone.

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How you get "it's just an iPod with some phone stuff tossed on" out of all of that is very mysterious to me.

The "rudimentary" features are missing from the iPod Touch as well, but it is designed as an iPod, not a phone, so my argument still stands. Until the iPhone can perform: 1-4, and 6-7, it will remain an iPod with some phoning capabilities.

I've worked for apples european sales for three years, and i live in ireland, coming from the uk

I can tell you now 2 things:-

1) Jobs arrogance cannot be over stated. He believes in his vision, its US centric to an insulting degree, and if he comes across something he does not like, it is steam rolled over, or forgotten about.

2) Secondly, i base a phone's sucess on how often i see that phone. Three years ago, i bought a razr (its a piece of crap, but it looked cool), it was pretty pricey at the time, especially since contracts were not a big thing in Ireland, or the UK, but within a few months, i had seen that phone everywhere.

Fast forward a few months since the iphone was launched. I see that phone NOWHERE. No one i know, has one, no one they know has one. Reason being -

1) Weak tech
2) More importantly the price. Most people have said, nice, really like it, but i am not paying that amount of money.

The iphone is TOTALLY over priced, and it is NOT being adopted by the UK or Ireland (especially in Ireland, where we are forced to over pay by ridiculous amounts, and we dont even get visual voicemail)

To all the apple fanboys, grow up. The iphone is NOT a success in Europe at all.

In Germany they have cut it down to 99 euros, in the UK, they have halved the price.

Quite simply, Jobs looked at the european market, compared it to America, realized he couldn't make the same amount of money, but STILL decided to FORCE his plan down the European throat. Greedy companies leapt in behind him, and now the whole process is BARELY moving.

I have no doubt the iphone type device could succeed. But apple need to wise up, and stop ripping people off.

Right now, without a contract, the iphone could have been THE most popular handset in Europe.

What correction are you talking about? You mean the sudden 99 Euro prices? You seem to forget, Europeans are used to paying full price for phones. There are some subsidizing here but Europeans don't cry about the price of phones the way American subscribers do.

There are actually several articles that say Europeans don't pay full price for phones.

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If this is the best you got then the iPhone is doomed. The iPhone is not a biz grade phone, nor even a real smart phone. It is an iPod with phone.

You are not the first to declare an Apple product doomed. Its actually quite a cliche. I'm surprised you said it.

Unless you missed the big announcement active sync is coming. We will have to wait to see how it does.

What is the definition of a " real smartphone"?

You keep calling the iPhone an iPod. You need to stop that. It makes you sound quite uninformed. The iPod is one of 17 apps that come with the iPhone. Studies have shown Mail app, Safari, and the phone app are used more than the iPod app.

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The iPhone simply falls short. Just for fun, compare the N82 features with those of the iPhone and see the difference.

I care less about a long feature list as I care about the quality and usability of the features.

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My N82 does this already.

You really need to stop. You don't know what you are talking about.

Currently no shipping desktop browser engine fully supports HTML 5.

The S60 browser on your N82 based on the WebKit engine certainly does not support it because WebKit does not yet fully support it.

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No, no, no, no again, nope, nein, ei, and so on. CRIPPLED. So you "crippled is pretty much meaningless" is pretty much meaningless as well as it is based on inaccuracies. When I got my iPhone (are you paying attention anantksundaram), I knew what it could and could not do. I do not use it regularly. I use it sometimes as a work phone for the days when I want to have a vid or some music with me. Most of the time it sits in a draw.

This is all your subjective opinion. You may think highly of your opinion, but don't confuse it for facts.

Windows XP is scaleable as well -- that's why Microsoft sells XP Embedded --- whether that does the job is another thing. All the other "real" mobile OS'es were designed to scale down to kilobytes of memory. Apple has to license an OS from a 3rd party for the ipod --- because OSX can't scale down that low.

I'm not sure why you bring XP into this. Windows is carrying around 25 years of legacy baggage its useless in the mobile space. Windows Mobile is not based on XP. The Zune doesn't use XP. The XBox doesn't use XP.

I don't think Apple is in a race to scale OS X down to kilobytes. The purpose of it is to bring desktop class API's and apps to mobile devices. Those other "real mobile OS'" do not deliver the same performance.

It took some time in development, but Apple does have OS X on an iPod. OS X is used on the iPod Touch, the iPhone, and Apple TV.

For 20 years, Mac users have been saying that they didn't really lose the Mhz war --- because they have better OS'es than Microsoft --- so they don't need faster CPU's to achieve the same thing. I still remember my Mac SE/30 with a giant Radius 2 page greyscale monitor. Now it's the other way around, the other mobile OS'es are built for cell phones and can use slower CPU with fewer memory.

No one said it did but the N82 can out perform the iPhone in the basic of TELEPHONY functions. Can you send more than one SMS at a time? Can you do a VoIP call? How about taking an SMS received and converting that to a phone number? How about storing files to send later as vCards (the industry standard)? These very simple things I detailed are important in a biz phone and included in ALL smart phones. The iPhone can do NONE of these. Not one. Now with Skype VoIP is possible but your phone has to be jailbroken to do even this simple thing.

You can hang a long laundry list of what any phone cannot do that some other phone can do better. What does this prove.

Actually you can now send multiple SMS messages. If you have an iPhone like you claim you should know that.

Many of the features you list can easily be added in software.

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My iPod Touch can't do any of these except use Skype but then again it was designed as an iPod, not and iPhone.

There are actually several articles that say Europeans don't pay full price for phones.

For unlocked, unsubsidized phones, they do. There are plenty of contracts that offer bungles but for the most part people want the freedom come and go as they please.

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You are not the first to declare an Apple product doomed. Its actually quite a cliche. I'm surprised you said it.

Unless you missed the big announcement active sync is coming. We will have to wait to see how it does.

Doomed my be a bit strong and retract this to a point. I will say that it will be challenged to sell as well as the shine has worn off. Right now, the E-Series Nokia phones have had Outlook, Blackberry support for quite some time. As this was a software implentation, there is no reason at all that Apple missed this.

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What is the definition of a " real smartphone"?

This is subjective of course but take a peek here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smartphone. Like the article says: "there is no industry standard". However, from a European prospective smartphones are generally phones that can be utilized as an extension of your work PC/Mac with the ability to send and receive files, send vCards, have OBEX support, etc... The iPhone has none of these functions. As a power user, I miss having these on the iPhone.

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You keep calling the iPhone an iPod. You need to stop that. It makes you sound quite uninformed. The iPod is one of 17 apps that come with the iPhone. Studies have shown Mail app, Safari, and the phone app are used more than the iPod app.

I will take your word for this, but in my opinion and that of apparently many in Europe, the iPhone is simply an iPod with phoning capabilities.

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I care less about a long feature list as I care about the quality and usability of the features.

Fair enough, but for what the iPhone does, it does well, except in the telephony department and this is the crux of my argument all along.

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You really need to stop. You don't know what you are talking about.

Currently no shipping desktop browser engine fully supports HTML 5.

The S60 browser on your N82 based on the WebKit engine certainly does not support it because WebKit does not yet fully support it.

I may have mispoke on the HTML 5. I was answering in genreal regarding the N82. If you say so about the HTMl 5, I will take your word for it.

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This is all your subjective opinion. You may think highly of your opinion, but don't confuse it for facts.

Not subjective at all. I have laid out some facts about what the iPhone can and can not do. These are facts, not opinions. How people choose to use their iPhone is based no their needs. For me, as a power user, the iPhone is nothing more than an iPod with phone.

You can hang a long laundry list of what any phone cannot do that some other phone can do better. What does this prove.

It should prove that one phone performs functions better than the other. That is pretty obvious, and a better buy.

[Quote]Actually you can now send multiple SMS messages. If you have an iPhone like you claim you should know that. {/Quote]

I meant, sending one message to multiple recipients at the same time rather than one at a time. I can now as my iPhone is jail broken. I use Weiphone and it is a better client than the one that comes with the iPhone.

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Many of the features you list can easily be added in software.

True and 3rd party guys are doing it. No thanks to Apple on this.

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Why do you have a Nokia N82, an iPod Touch, and an iPhone?

Well:
1. I work for the State Department and test things
2. I like devices
3. I can afford to buy almost anything I want. (gadget wise that is)

The N82 is my daily everyday phone (I mentioned this in this thread). My iPod Touch was a gift and now resides with my daughter. My iPhone is my work phone and either comes to me with work or sits in a draw somewhere. Once the iPhone gets to the level I consider to be a real device touting real telephony features, I will consider it more than a "niche" device.

Read the first three paragraphs of the first link. I did not even bother with the second link. When Apple can surpass Nokia, then you have my interest. Unless Apple adapts to the world outside of the US, the iPhone will continue to fail. Your argument is similar to those who continue to think that football (soccer) will never be popular until it is adopted by Americans. 3 plus Billion (with a B) will disagree with you. Apple thought the same tactics that applied in the US will fly over in Europe. The fact remains that for the most part, European phone subscribers are generally more evolved and sophisticated in terms of functionality, usages, services, etc... than their American counterparts. Apple missed this fact and now it has come back to bite them.

Game, set, match: Nokia.

Hey buddy stop trying to change the subject, your Nokia is struggling in the US and Canada and instead of addressing the issue, you want to divert the topic. Why doesn't Nokia adapt for this market, my market, shows that every company has problems even heavyweights in the mobile industry like Nokia. Nokia thought that their tactics in Europe and other parts of the world would win over the market in America and it didn't work out. Is Nokia as successful in America as they are in other parts of the world. You also don't have to come and insult us Americans by calling us unsophisticated. Nothing has come back to bite Apple, you Nokia fanatics have been here diminishing the iphone from day 1, you said it would be a failure, a flop whatever but when the iphone started to succeed you started changing your tune and saying they aren't selling as many phones in Europe, the world as Nokia. Well how is Nokia doing in North America, why aren't they experiencing the same level of success. Truth is Apple has waken up the mobile phone industry and given attention to it after years of mediocre phones that were based on putting in as much features as possible, Apple has made user experience their priority and it shows in the number of iphone users who are satisified with phone. The media is now starting to focus attention on the Apple and the iphone and it's shifting away from your Nokias and you lot just can't handle. When Apple enter a market they generate excitement in the segment, look at what the ipod did, the iphone, even the macbook air. People started to get excited about the segments after Apple entered, and you can't take that, so you here spewing nonsense. I guess it's Apple's fault that people love their products, you can continue putting down the iphone all you want.

Can you watch broadcast TV on an iPhone- NO!
Can you receive pictures from every other cellphone that sends them to you easily? -NO!
Can you get an iPhone without a data package- NO!
WHy?

Was your phone showed on the Oscars ? No
Does your phone have the highest consumer satisfaction rating ? No
Is your phone the most used phone for mobile browsing ? No
Is your phone the best media player ? No
Does your phone have the best user interface ? No

Why, please tell me ?

Go and ask anybody in the public what an N95 is and see what they'll tell you, then ask then what an iphone is, chances are they know what an iphone is.

I've worked for apples european sales for three years, and i live in ireland, coming from the uk

I can tell you now 2 things:-

1) Jobs arrogance cannot be over stated. He believes in his vision, its US centric to an insulting degree, and if he comes across something he does not like, it is steam rolled over, or forgotten about.

2) Secondly, i base a phone's sucess on how often i see that phone. Three years ago, i bought a razr (its a piece of crap, but it looked cool), it was pretty pricey at the time, especially since contracts were not a big thing in Ireland, or the UK, but within a few months, i had seen that phone everywhere.

Fast forward a few months since the iphone was launched. I see that phone NOWHERE. No one i know, has one, no one they know has one. Reason being -

1) Weak tech
2) More importantly the price. Most people have said, nice, really like it, but i am not paying that amount of money.

The iphone is TOTALLY over priced, and it is NOT being adopted by the UK or Ireland (especially in Ireland, where we are forced to over pay by ridiculous amounts, and we dont even get visual voicemail)

To all the apple fanboys, grow up. The iphone is NOT a success in Europe at all.

In Germany they have cut it down to 99 euros, in the UK, they have halved the price.

Quite simply, Jobs looked at the european market, compared it to America, realized he couldn't make the same amount of money, but STILL decided to FORCE his plan down the European throat. Greedy companies leapt in behind him, and now the whole process is BARELY moving.

I have no doubt the iphone type device could succeed. But apple need to wise up, and stop ripping people off.

Right now, without a contract, the iphone could have been THE most popular handset in Europe.

Its not. Its not going to be either. In short, its failing.

I haven't seen a Nokia N95 in public before so I guess it's also a failure.

Hey buddy stop trying to change the subject, your Nokia is struggling in the US and Canada and instead of addressing the issue, you want to divert the topic. Why doesn't Nokia adapt for this market, my market, shows that every company has problems even heavyweights in the mobile industry like Nokia. Nokia thought that their tactics in Europe and other parts of the world would win over the market in America and it didn't work out. Is Nokia as successful in America as they are in other parts of the world. You also don't have to come and insult us Americans by calling us unsophisticated.

This is where my "get a passport and travel" argument comes in. If you had bothered to read rather than post blindly, you would see that I said that I am an American working for the State Department, currently living over seas. Next time I will include Power Points and pictures for you. Anyway, as several articles have been posted here, Nokia initially did not have the phones designed for the US market, i.e. different 3G standards, EVO, etc.... They are producing them now and once in the pipe, they should be able to compete with BB, Sanyo and the other players.

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Nothing has come back to bite Apple, you Nokia fanatics have been here diminishing the iphone from day 1, you said it would be a failure, a flop whatever but when the iphone started to succeed you started changing your tune and saying they aren't selling as many phones in Europe, the world as Nokia. Well how is Nokia doing in North America, why aren't they experiencing the same level of success.

You don't call massive price reductions and slumping sales as possible failure? Please, please do not say you are in charge of your companies finances. The truth is, the iPhone is great as a music player/media player (to include Internet), but as a phone, it is a failure. That is unless you are content to call, hang up, send one SMS per person. Here, the iPhone excels.

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Truth is Apple has waken up the mobile phone industry and given attention to it after years of mediocre phones that were based on putting in as much features as possible, Apple has made user experience their priority and it shows in the number of iphone users who are satisified with phone. The media is now starting to focus attention on the Apple and the iphone and it's shifting away from your Nokias and you lot just can't handle. When Apple enter a market they generate excitement in the segment, look at what the ipod did, the iphone, even the macbook air.

On this we can agree but once the hype wears off, people see the products for what they are. iPod (in my opinion, their best device), MacBook Air : toaster oven over the amount of heat it generates. Maybe the second gen will be worth buying. iPhone: iPod with phone.

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People started to get excited about the segments after Apple entered, and you can't take that, so you here spewing nonsense. I guess it's Apple's fault that people love their products, you can continue putting down the iphone all you want.

I love my iPods, and am even fond of my iPhone but only as a device to play my media. As a phone, it has miles and miles to go. Sorry if you have not been exposed to higher end devices. See my mention of getting a passport and traveling.

This is where my "get a passport and travel" argument comes in. If you had bothered to read rather than post blindly, you would see that I said that I am an American working for the State Department, currently living over seas. Next time I will include Power Points and pictures for you. Anyway, as several articles have been posted here, Nokia initially did not have the phones designed for the US market, i.e. different 3G standards, EVO, etc.... They are producing them now and once in the pipe, they should be able to compete with BB, Sanyo and the other players.

I actually have travelled quite extensively, than you, very much. So you are willing to make excuses for Nokia's failures here in America but don't want to make any excuses for Apple. It's good that you've acknowledge that Nokia hasn't been a success here in North America where I live, compared to how the fare in Europe.

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You don't call massive price reductions and slumping sales as possible failure? Please, please do not say you are in charge of your companies finances. The truth is, the iPhone is great as a music player/media player (to include Internet), but as a phone, it is a failure. That is unless you are content to call, hang up, send one SMS per person. Here, the iPhone excels.

So that's the reason it's a failure, do you work at Apple to know what their goals are for the iphone, last time I checked Apple has set only 1 goal and that is to sell 10 million units in 2008 and the year ain't over. How can a phone which is the number 1 mobile browser in the USA, number 2 in the world, and has the highest consumer satisfaction ratings be a failure. Why are so many other companies trying to copy a phone that is a failure, why does it get so much media attention, or is Apple paying for all that attention

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On this we can agree but once the hype wears off, people see the products for what they are. iPod (in my opinion, their best device), MacBook Air : toaster oven over the amount of heat it generates. Maybe the second gen will be worth buying. iPhone: iPod with phone.

So the products that you don't like are failures right, okay I get your drift.

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I love my iPods, and am even fond of my iPhone but only as a device to play my media. As a phone, it has miles and miles to go. Sorry if you have not been exposed to higher end devices. See my mention of getting a passport and traveling.

By the way, there are many here that present a pretty good debate, one of them being JeffDM. I can appreciate his point of view and I have no problem when he might find a point I have missed or am out right incorrect. He presents a good, non-fanboy argument. I would say he is very sophisticated.

Really. When you are on your 3rd passport in less than 2 years come see me. Canada and Mexico do not really count at "traveling".

I did not bother with the rest of your posts as you have not said anything really important in the first place.

Actually you did make a statement this is well typical. Nokia doesn't have many phones for the fragmented US market and they did say that they will start to introduce them. This is not an excuse but a fact. Check the dictionary to see the difference.

Really. When you are on your 3rd passport in less than 2 years come see me. Canada and Mexico do not really count at "traveling".

I did not bother with the rest of your posts as you have not said anything really important in the first place.

Actually you did make a statement this is well typical. Nokia doesn't have many phones for the fragmented US market and they did say that they will start to introduce them. This is not an excuse but a fact. Check the dictionary to see the difference.

For unlocked, unsubsidized phones, they do. There are plenty of contracts that offer bungles but for the most part people want the freedom come and go as they please.

For the most part once the 18 month contract is up they are free to take the phone were ever they want.

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Doomed my be a bit strong and retract this to a point. I will say that it will be challenged to sell as well as the shine has worn off. Right now, the E-Series Nokia phones have had Outlook, Blackberry support for quite some time. As this was a software implentation, there is no reason at all that Apple missed this.

Apple doesn't need to support Outlook. They have their own email client. Apple has basically said why they wouldn't directly support BlackBerry.

Its not fair to compare Nokia and Apple in that way. Nokia has been selling phones for nearly 30 years, while Apple is just in its first year.

Apple was not interested in simply stuffing lots of features into a phone. They want to take their time and grow the platform with features and apps that are of high quality, easy to use, and visually pleasing.

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I meant, sending one message to multiple recipients at the same time rather than one at a time. I can now as my iPhone is jail broken. I use Weiphone and it is a better client than the one that comes with the iPhone.

Yes you can, this feature was added in firmware 1.1.3.

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The N82 is my daily everyday phone (I mentioned this in this thread). My iPod Touch was a gift and now resides with my daughter. My iPhone is my work phone and either comes to me with work or sits in a draw somewhere. Once the iPhone gets to the level I consider to be a real device touting real telephony features, I will consider it more than a "niche" device.

How is the iPhone a work phone? You call it crippled non-enterprise phone that sits in a drawer.

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However, from a European prospective smartphones are generally phones that can be utilized as an extension of your work PC/Mac with the ability to send and receive files, send vCards, have OBEX support, etc... The iPhone has none of these functions. As a power user, I miss having these on the iPhone.

This is your definition of a smartphone.

You like to rant about how Americans don't understand Europeans. You sure feel comfortable being an American making defining statements about a content with 50 countries and over 700 million people.

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I will take your word for this, but in my opinion and that of apparently many in Europe, the iPhone is simply an iPod with phoning capabilities.

You don't have to take my word for it. You only simply have look at the picture. Or in your case take your iPhone out of the drawer and use it. You will clearly see their are 16 other apps than the iPod.

There are also over 1400 web apps and services built specifically for the iPhone. This list is growing by 100 a month.

O2 has said the iPhone is the most used device on their data network even to the point of straining their network. Looking at how the iPhone has taken a good chunk of the Europaen internet marketshare. This is solid proof that Europeans use the iPhone for more than an iPod.

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I may have mispoke on the HTML 5. I was answering in genreal regarding the N82. If you say so about the HTMl 5, I will take your word for it.

I was speaking of HTML 5 features that will be coming to Safari. You said the N82 already does that. Is that just your default answer for everything?

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True and 3rd party guys are doing it. No thanks to Apple on this.

Part of this is your impatience. Apple has said from the beginning they would continuously add features to the phone. And they have.

Apple has created and is improving a web based development for the iPhone. The results are nearly 1500 web based applications and services. Something that no other phone manufacturer has done.

Apple is building a 3rd party platform based on desktop API infrastructure. This is something that no other phone manufacturer has done. Apple has said that this is a lot of work and they want to insure everything is right because they will be stuck with these API's for a long time.

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Not subjective at all. I have laid out some facts about what the iPhone can and can not do. These are facts, not opinions. How people choose to use their iPhone is based no their needs. For me, as a power user, the iPhone is nothing more than an iPod with phone.

What the iPhone can or cannot do is a fact, yes. Which of these features are most useful is the subjective part. You confuse the two.

You describe yourself a power user huh? Most of the power users I've seen who really need to send multiple texts are 13 year olds.