Irving v. Lipstadt

Transcripts

I do not think it was taken very seriously by the court, 1use of Hofmann's evidence you simply have to say that he 2is heavily involved in the Putsch, he is a Nazi party 3supporter and is regarded as such by the court. 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
Your final criticism is that I do not give proper source 5notes for this, is that correct? 6A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. Where is this? 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
Well, that I failed to provide a proper footnote 8reference. It is the bottom of page 230. 9A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
Is that a serious criticism or is just your irritation 11that you had to go and look in the index of your printed 12edition of this trial? 13A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Well, it is more than that. I think that you have made it 14deliberately difficult for people to go and check it out. 15Q.
[Mr Irving]
I have made it deliberately difficult? 16A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
In what way? 18A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Do you want to have a look at the footnote reference which 19you provide or do not provide? 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
Is it not correct that I give the reference as being 21microfilm version of the trial of the Bavarian people 22against Adolf Hitler and others? 23A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, that is 8,000 pages, as you said, Mr Irving. I do 24think that simply referring to an 8,000 page collection 25does make it difficult. You could, for example, easily 26have put the day on which it occurred and given a frame

. P-211

1number, if there are frame numbers, or a real number, if 2there are real numbers. There are ways in which you can 3be more precise. 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
Will you take it from me that the American publisher 5William Morrow asked me to cut 2,000 lines out the proofs 6of this book. In other words, at proof stage, they said, 7Mr Irving, please cut 2,000 lines out of this book. Can 8you accept that? 9A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I would have to see the documentary evidence of that. 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
Very well. If that was the case, what are the first 11places that you would be tempted to make the cuts? 12A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I agree of course in the footnotes. 13Q.
[Mr Irving]
In the footnotes? 14A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
But in that case I think you still have to abbreviate 15footnotes. You have to provide footnote references which 16will enable other people to go and check up what you have 17written. You could have, you know, done this in such a 18way as to achieve that object. 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
So, in summary, on the case of this policeman Hoffmann 20your allegations against me rest on the statement that 21I ought to have known, or ought to have noticed, there was 22a Nazi party member and I ought to---- 23MR RAMPTON: No, my Lord, he did not say "ought to", he said 24"must have", which is quite different. 25A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. He did know. 26MR IRVING: Very well. In that case I have to ask again, on

. P-212

1what evidence---- 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: We have been all over that, Mr Irving, 3really. 4MR IRVING: Do you have any evidence that I did know? 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, Mr Rampton has just reminded you 6that you accepted that you had read the whole of the trial 7evidence, including Hoffmann. 8MR IRVING: Has your Lordship any idea of how many words there 9are on 8,000 pages of transcript? 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: You have just been through that point. 11MR IRVING: Yes, but the fact that one reads 8,000 pages of 12transcript with no doubt many millions of words does not 13mean to say that one knows everything that is stated about 14every person in that transcript. 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, what I am going to suggest is that 16you read the transcript of the last 20 minutes again 17perhaps, if you have time between now and tomorrow, and 18I think you will understand why I think you will not do 19any good to your case by going all over it again. 20MR IRVING: Well ---- 21A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
The answer to your question, Mr Irving, is no, my case 22against you here does not rest solely on that. 23MR IRVING: On Hoffmann? 24A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
On the fact that you suppressed your knowledge of the bias 25in his testimony. I also, as you know, say that you 26manipulate what he said.

. P-213

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
What is your evidence for the fact that he was biased in 2his testimony? 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think that question has been asked and 4answered sufficiently. 5MR IRVING: Except that he stated it as a fact, and of course 6it is an opinion. 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: In a sense it is perhaps neither. It is an 8inference from all the circumstances. 9MR IRVING: A possible bias, this is true. We now pass to 10Reichskristallnacht, page 233. 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, I accept that it is slightly my 12fault that we spent the last 20 plus minutes on the 1924 13trial, but frankly I think it was vital that you did 14address that. But, having got to ten past 4, would it be 15sensible to start on Kristallnacht tomorrow morning? 16MR IRVING: It would be sensible, my Lord. Perhaps I can wave 17a little flag and say I shall reserve the right to come 18back to Hoffmann on a later occasion with more material, 19as your Lordship obviously attaches more significance to 20it than I do. 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: Only because is it one of the chain of 22documents. 23MR IRVING: I intend dealing with the chain of documents in 24sequence on a different occasion, I think. It makes more 25sense. 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can I say in advance that I am going to have

. P-214

1to rise just a little bit early tomorrow, say about 24 o'clock rather than 4.15. 10.30 tomorrow. 3< (The witness withdrew). 4(The court adjourned until the following day) 5 6 7 8 91011121314151617181920212223242526