[img]http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/9881/img0400li.jpg[/img] [img]http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/9531/img0401vl.jpg[/img] Great deals from West Marine on biners! This baby holds 28 kN, no wonder its so expensive.

Not sure why the 'biner is $99 other than they're selling to the yachting crowd. The people who actually buy that stuff are hired guns and, for the most part, are spending their millionaire boat-owner's bucks. The shackles are from Wishard, a French company that makes really nice, but really expensive stuff. Wishard bought Simond about 8 years ago then sold them quickly after discovering that they couldn't sell an ice axe for $1,000. When I was at Trango we bought a quick release snap shackle in lots of 2,000 units at a time and they cost us over $40 each.

It's way more than just "it's the yachting crowd" and they're rich. Where I live, boating is a totally middle class activity and a really popular family weekend activity. Most boat owners are far from rich. West Marine is a boating store that caters to the entire spectrum. They do a very good job at their specialty. I'd compare them to REI in terms of what they sell and pricepoints.

Normal climbing hardware is less than useless in the marine environment. Inside of a week or so, a climbing carabiner will freeze up from galvanic and chemical corrosion. I took a couple of normal crabs out on my kayak in the ocean and the environment destroyed them in a week or so. Furthermore, if they're clipped to another piece of metal, they can promote galvanic corrosion of the other metal and destroy that as well.

Any kind of metal fitting for marine use has to be specially designed so as not to corrode internally AND not to promote corrosion in materials that it's attached to. They're expensive because they require special materials.

It's way more than just "it's the yachting crowd" and they're rich. Where I live, boating is a totally middle class activity and a really popular family weekend activity. Most boat owners are far from rich. West Marine is a boating store that caters to the entire spectrum. They do a very good job at their specialty. I'd compare them to REI in terms of what they sell and pricepoints.

Normal climbing hardware is less than useless in the marine environment. Inside of a week or so, a climbing carabiner will freeze up from galvanic and chemical corrosion. I took a couple of normal crabs out on my kayak in the ocean and the environment destroyed them in a week or so. Furthermore, if they're clipped to another piece of metal, they can promote galvanic corrosion of the other metal and destroy that as well.

Any kind of metal fitting for marine use has to be specially designed so as not to corrode internally AND not to promote corrosion in materials that it's attached to. They're expensive because they require special materials.

I doubt that carabiner is anything special, likely just 7000 series aluminum, just like climbing gear. But okay, maybe it is special. However, West Marine is still a complete rip off. The shackles, quicklinks, and pulleys they sell are just standard grade 316 stainless steel, nothing special. Yet they charge some 400% above retail for them. I can get the EXACT same product on eBay for 1/5th the cost. West Marine sells some of the gear we use to create anchors on our sport routes. We get them for around $4 each and West Marine sells them for some $55. So catering to the middle class, I think not, more like catering to the ignorant class.

Oh, and they sell 1/4" Dyneema for $1.50 a foot! One of the local shops gets the exact same stuff (Amsteel grey) for less than 1/4rd that price. I found some on the net for $.50 a foot!

Eek, you actually clip into those things? Sounds pretty dangerous. I guess I dont know that much about them, but I use one to release the load on drop tests from the ground, and its not that hard to get it to open up. It seems like it would be easy to inadvertently open one.

They are actually pretty hard to release when they're loaded so we would supply them with a 6" leash with a grab ring to make them easier to release. Some of the Special Forces would specify that we use the dedicated quick-release versions of the shackle which are designed to release under load: http://www.westmarine.com/...6&classNum=50047

These are the same ones the kite boarders use as emergency release units between themselves and the kites.

Do you know that? Is the material in the gate hinge pin the same? How about the metal used for the locking mechanism? Could the whole thing be 5083 or 5086 instead of 6061? How would you know? Have you bought both and tested them in seawater? EXACT is a very precise word.

When faced with an apparent pricing anomaly, my first reaction is usually "why is that?" and not "people are stupid". Plenty of people have access to both marine and climbing markets and that should minimize pricing differences between markets.

Do you know that? Is the material in the gate hinge pin the same? How about the metal used for the locking mechanism? Could the whole thing be 5083 or 5086 instead of 6061? How would you know? Have you bought both and tested them in seawater? EXACT is a very precise word.

When faced with an apparent pricing anomaly, my first reaction is usually "why is that?" and not "people are stupid". Plenty of people have access to both marine and climbing markets and that should minimize pricing differences between markets.

I was not talking about the biner, I was talking about the stainless steel shackles.

moose_droppings wrote:

USnavy wrote:

One of the local shops gets the exact same stuff (Amsteel grey) for less than 1/4rd that price.

They are actually pretty hard to release when they're loaded so we would supply them with a 6" leash with a grab ring to make them easier to release. Some of the Special Forces would specify that we use the dedicated quick-release versions of the shackle which are designed to release under load: http://www.westmarine.com/...6&classNum=50047

These are the same ones the kite boarders use as emergency release units between themselves and the kites.

So let me make sure I understand this right. They throw this big ass rap device on the rope and clip a lanyard to it. The lanyard has a single locking biner on the belay device side and two quick release links on the other side. One quick release gets clipped into the belay loop of the SWAT officer's harness, the other into his dog's harness. Then, when the SWAT man gets to the ground, he just pulls the pin on the quick release and he can run off and shoot all the bad guys. Correct? Well if that is the case, why not just use a standard double action auto-locking biner instead of the quick release? Pulling a pin on the side of one of those quick release devices is no faster than twisting the gate on an auto-lock and unclipping yourself. In both cases, you can unclip yourself instantly, however the biner seems like a much more secure and safer option. The only way those quick release devices seem advantageous is if the user wanted to drop himself to the deck before reaching the ground (such is in the case of Navy SAR swimmers that jump into the ocean out of a chopper).

[img]http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/9881/img0400li.jpg[/img] [img]http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/9531/img0401vl.jpg[/img] Great deals from West Marine on biners! This baby holds 28 kN, no wonder its so expensive.

[img]http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/9881/img0400li.jpg[/img] [img]http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/9531/img0401vl.jpg[/img] Great deals from West Marine on biners! This baby holds 28 kN, no wonder its so expensive.

I actually saw someone buy one of these. I was not sure if I should have told him I can get the same shackles for $3 on eBay or not.

In today's lesson, USN learns the difference between maximum working load and break strength. Or not.

I'll go with "or not". I use to be a welder, I operated 30T overhead cranes and related rigging equipment on a daily basis. Any idiot knows what SWL is and how it compares to breaking strength, especially considering many manufacturers provide both values. Like I said, the quicklinks we have bought in the past are no different than the ones pictured on West Marine's site.

USnavy, You're forgetting 2 things in your analysis. #1 - The Quick Release was spec'd by Special Forces, not us. Remember, the fast rope insertion technique was developed for getting into hot combat zones in a hurry. Fractions of seconds count. Fumbling around with a double action locker while being shot at is a bloody waste of time. #2 - The guys fast rope in with big heavy gloves and it's almost impossible to operate a regular carabiner, let alone a double action twist lock, with gloves on. Try this: take our favorite locking carabiner down to a welder's supply store. Put on a pair of the welder's gloves and try to open that locker. Got it? Good. Now go stand in a hot combat zone with a mob trying to shoot you and sending RPG's your way and try it Oh...And don't forget all the swirling dust from the rotor wash.

BTW, the QR spec was determined by SOCOM and handed to us. They have needs that are so far beyond what we civilians can even imagine that I don't even try to argue.