I never wear jeans to Church, although, I am considering it now since I've progressed beyond the Hyperdox stage. I wore a suit to Pascha, but I also wore a black, heavy but casual jacket as well because it was pretty cold.

It's not a Hyperdox thing to dress formally in a church. I used to dress less formally when I was more Hyperdox than I am now.

EDIT: But on the other hand making a fuss about what to wear to the services IS a Hyperdox thing. Unless of course one happens to be a dandy.

I showed up in church in scandals one Sunday with kahki shorts and my priest asked me to not dress that way at church. What I think is immaterial. If my (or your) priest asks you not to dress a certian way, respect his wishes.

note, If my priest is hyperdox, then Im a bucket.

PP

Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

While we're on the subject of what to wear for church and such, I don't think it's always as simple as "mind your own salvation and don't correct other people's behavior". Sometimes it's one's duty to admonish one's neighbor, not in order to judge, but in order to avoid scandal and help your brother know the right way. Minding one's business is the right overall principle, but sometimes one's business does overlap with others'.

I'm not saying this to argue that you should go out of your way to scold everyone who turns up to church in shorts or miniskirt, but that one shouldn't also think the worst of those who do feel the need to say something about it. Don't we want our churches to be well ordered?

While we're on the subject of what to wear for church and such, I don't think it's always as simple as "mind your own salvation and don't correct other people's behavior". Sometimes it's one's duty to admonish one's neighbor, not in order to judge, but in order to avoid scandal and help your brother know the right way. Minding one's business is the right overall principle, but sometimes one's business does overlap with others'.

I'm not saying this to argue that you should go out of your way to scold everyone who turns up to church in shorts or miniskirt, but that one shouldn't also think the worst of those who do feel the need to say something about it. Don't we want our churches to be well ordered?

I"m conflicted about this, based on personal experiences. As a kid in the 70's, my father, for whatever reason, felt he was making some sort of statement by how we dressed. We listened to Janis Joplin, rode around in a VW Bug and picked up many of the hitchhiking college students that were roaming the country at the time. So, we would go to Mass dressed like hippies. I had long, blonde hippie-like hair, and wore jean bell bottoms and flannel jackets, and I remember the looks of contempt when we walked into church like this. I always liked going to my ethnic grandparents and being with them in their church, with my grandpa in his suit and my grandma in her nice, stylish clothes. But, that's not how my father wanted things in our home. He felt he was being more "real" and the people who dressed up were "fake", for reasons beyond the scope of this thread. I was just a kid and had no choice in the matter. I don't think it was fair for people to judge me, they didn't know what was in my heart or my situation.

Later as an adult I attended a very conservative Roman Catholic church and I wore dresses every Sunday. But I still got judged. Why? Well, one reason is I like to get to church early and pray in the quietness of the church. Afterwards, when others would stay to pray before the Blessed Sacrament, I would leave, because I had already spent time in solitude and prayer *before* Mass. The fact that I left I right after Mass was noted by the group I was hanging out with at the time. Also, when everyone else was making a St. Louis Montfort consecration (A Roman Catholic thing, definitely not an Orthodox thing!) I didn't take part because I just wasn't "feeling it", and I wasn't going to do it just to fit into a particular group. Again, that was noted and I wasn't considered Roman Catholic enough. No matter that I wore nice clothes to Mass!

And, a bit later when I lost my job to corporate downsizing and decided to change careers and go to Nursing school, I had lost weight and couldn't fit into my nicer clothes any more. But, I couldn't afford new ones, since I had to use my savings to pay for my school tuition and my house mortgage and my living expenses. Should I have been admonished by someone for showing up at church in the clothes I had, or should I have stayed home to avoid admonishment?

Based on my own experiences, I think it's best to just mind ones own business. I understand some people dress inappropriately for church, but unless it is really causing a disturbance, maybe it is best to just pray for the person and seek God's intervention in his or her life?

I never wear jeans to Church, although, I am considering it now since I've progressed beyond the Hyperdox stage. I wore a suit to Pascha, but I also wore a black, heavy but casual jacket as well because it was pretty cold.

It's not a Hyperdox thing to dress formally in a church. I used to dress less formally when I was more Hyperdox than I am now.

Agreed. If anything, it's some hyperdox (who most likely wouldn't self-identify as such) who judge those of us who do fairly formal attire as being too worldly and missing the point.

Wearing jeans doesn't entitle people to claim they are humble or working harder than others during the liturgy.

Similarly, I judge. Divine Liturgy, in particular, is a somewhat formal event (look at the priests, deacons, etc.). It's not a pool party with some worship thrown in.

Divine Liturgy, in particular, is a somewhat formal event (look at the priests, deacons, etc.). It's not a pool party with some worship thrown in

That is what, basically my priest said to me. Liturgy is not a casual event, nor should you treat it casually, or dress casually.

PP

Agreed. But before we judge others, we should first see what is going on in their lives. Are they poor? Can they afford to have a Sunday wardrobe in addition to a workday wardrobe? Did they just get off a night shift and didn't have time to change? Did they grow up with parents who never taught them the value of dressing modestly or appropriately? Are they seeking attention? Are they just young and part of the generation that has no concept of formal attire and just needs some gentle guidance?

Divine Liturgy, in particular, is a somewhat formal event (look at the priests, deacons, etc.). It's not a pool party with some worship thrown in

That is what, basically my priest said to me. Liturgy is not a casual event, nor should you treat it casually, or dress casually.

PP

Agreed. But before we judge others, we should first see what is going on in their lives. Are they poor? Can they afford to have a Sunday wardrobe in addition to a workday wardrobe? Did they just get off a night shift and didn't have time to change? Did they grow up with parents who never taught them the value of dressing modestly or appropriately? Are they seeking attention? Are they just young and part of the generation that has no concept of formal attire and just needs some gentle guidance?

Agreed. But before we judge others, we should first see what is going on in their lives. Are they poor? Can they afford to have a Sunday wardrobe in addition to a workday wardrobe? Did they just get off a night shift and didn't have time to change? Did they grow up with parents who never taught them the value of dressing modestly or appropriately? Are they seeking attention? Are they just young and part of the generation that has no concept of formal attire and just needs some gentle guidance?

Hey thats not me, thats what my priest said. So I obey

PP

Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Agreed. But before we judge others, we should first see what is going on in their lives. Are they poor? Can they afford to have a Sunday wardrobe in addition to a workday wardrobe? Did they just get off a night shift and didn't have time to change? Did they grow up with parents who never taught them the value of dressing modestly or appropriately? Are they seeking attention? Are they just young and part of the generation that has no concept of formal attire and just needs some gentle guidance?

Hey thats not me, thats what my priest said. So I obey

PP

I agree, it is better to dress with reverence to attend Liturgy.

I probably have my own things that I'm a Hyperdox about. Such as kids bring toys into church. The last thing I want to be distracted by is a kid rolling a Tonka Truck on the pew in front of me. (Maybe it's a good thing many Orthodox churches don't have pews!)

Agreed. But before we judge others, we should first see what is going on in their lives. Are they poor? Can they afford to have a Sunday wardrobe in addition to a workday wardrobe? Did they just get off a night shift and didn't have time to change? Did they grow up with parents who never taught them the value of dressing modestly or appropriately? Are they seeking attention? Are they just young and part of the generation that has no concept of formal attire and just needs some gentle guidance?

Hey thats not me, thats what my priest said. So I obey

PP

I agree, it is better to dress with reverence to attend Liturgy.

I probably have my own things that I'm a Hyperdox about. Such as kids bring toys into church. The last thing I want to be distracted by is a kid rolling a Tonka Truck on the pew in front of me. (Maybe it's a good thing many Orthodox churches don't have pews!)

well you wouldn't want to trip over a tonka truck rolling past you on the floor

well you wouldn't want to trip over a tonka truck rolling past you on the floor [/quote]

Right.

I guess there *is* a place for admonishment at times. Jesus certainly admonished when he turned over the moneylenders' tables outside of the Temple. And sometimes parents have to admonish to get their teenagers on the right path. I heard one priest try to get people to dress appropriately by saying in church we should be thinking "Body of Christ" and not "Christ, what a Body!". Oh dear.

I almost always go in jenas and there were a few times I went in shorts (however my mom scolded me for that).

Pascha is the separate case, though. I was in suit.

Right. Going to Church in a Baptist style "Sunday Best" would seem dramatically out of place in Eastern Europe. Is it that difficult to just wear normal clothes (i.e not beach clothes) to church?

Orthodoxy is not an Eastern European religion. I don't know about Ukraine but in my parish there are several men wearing suit and tie in the regular sunday liturgies. Both Finns and at least one Russian. Younger people tend to dress less formally but most of the elderly men wear some kind of "Sunday Best" even if it isn't exactly a suit. Same goes with the elderly females. And I don't think I have noticed anyone giving me weird looks for wearing a tie or a bowtie on sundays despite my fairly young age.

And it isn't some kind of weirdo Hyperdox parish filled with crazy converts. I actually haven't encountered any of those or individual Hermans in Finland. That seems to be an American phenomenon.

During my first passion gospels service, I started to feel ill and sat in the pew for a bit instead of standing, and a woman from the choir behind me tapped me and said that if I couldn't stand I ahd to kneel...

See, this is why I'm glad no one has ever done that to me. If they had, I'd have given them half the peace sign...

I would have turned around and thrown up on her.

Logged

I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Church Slavonic and women in headscarves? Seems like they are working hard to prove they are NOT part of the UGCC. In Lviv, you would see uncovered women and modern Ukrainian only.

Ah you fell for it my brother. If you asked them they will tell you most assuredly that they are NOT part of the UGCC albeit they are Greek Catholics and presently their region has been placed in Ukraine. They are Greek Catholics of the Eparchy of Muchachevo and like their 'rusnak' cousins in the USA - be they 'rust-belt' OCA, ACROD or BCC today - they are very territorial regarding their traditions and their distinctiveness from their neighbors - close as they may appear to the outside eye!

During my first passion gospels service, I started to feel ill and sat in the pew for a bit instead of standing, and a woman from the choir behind me tapped me and said that if I couldn't stand I ahd to kneel...

See, this is why I'm glad no one has ever done that to me. If they had, I'd have given them half the peace sign...

I would have turned around and thrown up on her.

Gee, that's crazy. If you feel ill you should sit. I passed out in church when I was 12. I felt sick but I was afraid of being conspicuous. So I went up for communion. Unfortunately I passed out at the back on the line where the floor started to slope down towards the front. ( This was a modern auditorium-style Roman Catholic church) So when I passed out I stumbled down the slope and hit my head on a pew and had to be carried out of church. So I guess that's another reason not to have pews or modern architecture.

During my first passion gospels service, I started to feel ill and sat in the pew for a bit instead of standing, and a woman from the choir behind me tapped me and said that if I couldn't stand I ahd to kneel...

See, this is why I'm glad no one has ever done that to me. If they had, I'd have given them half the peace sign...

I would have turned around and thrown up on her.

LOL. Seriously though, some folks in church need to get a life and mind their own business.

Our priest was encouraging folks to come to the Passion Service last week and he pointed out that while there is a lot of standing, at least the clergy get to move around during the course of the service while the laity have to be in one spot. Because of that he said no one should feel that if they feel ill or weak that they should just sit in the pew for awhile and that no one should take it upon themselves to be the 'pew police.'

I almost always go in jenas and there were a few times I went in shorts (however my mom scolded me for that).

Pascha is the separate case, though. I was in suit.

Right. Going to Church in a Baptist style "Sunday Best" would seem dramatically out of place in Eastern Europe. Is it that difficult to just wear normal clothes (i.e not beach clothes) to church?

Orthodoxy is not an Eastern European religion. I don't know about Ukraine but in my parish there are several men wearing suit and tie in the regular sunday liturgies. Both Finns and at least one Russian. Younger people tend to dress less formally but most of the elderly men wear some kind of "Sunday Best" even if it isn't exactly a suit. Same goes with the elderly females. And I don't think I have noticed anyone giving me weird looks for wearing a tie or a bowtie on sundays despite my fairly young age.

And it isn't some kind of weirdo Hyperdox parish filled with crazy converts. I actually haven't encountered any of those or individual Hermans in Finland. That seems to be an American phenomenon.

Exactly my point. Do what is culturally appropriate. In many party of the US, not wearing your Sunday best would be a grave insult. There's nothing wrong with that; it simply isn't universal.

During my first passion gospels service, I started to feel ill and sat in the pew for a bit instead of standing, and a woman from the choir behind me tapped me and said that if I couldn't stand I ahd to kneel...

See, this is why I'm glad no one has ever done that to me. If they had, I'd have given them half the peace sign...

I would have turned around and thrown up on her.

LOL. Seriously though, some folks in church need to get a life and mind their own business.

Our priest was encouraging folks to come to the Passion Service last week and he pointed out that while there is a lot of standing, at least the clergy get to move around during the course of the service while the laity have to be in one spot. Because of that he said no one should feel that if they feel ill or weak that they should just sit in the pew for awhile and that no one should take it upon themselves to be the 'pew police.'

I'm sure this happens in many places, but one of my favorite parts of the Passion Week and Paschal services is to see who breaks the ice, as it were, and sits down first.

Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

Yes. The best part is that Ukrainians usually complain that Americans have no sense of fashion. The hardest part of being a teacher is suppressing laughter at such comments coming from someone dressed like a prostitute from the 80s on LSD.

I take it that if I plan on visiting any of the CIS states anytime soon my sense of fashion will have to widen? In any case, I have no sense of style, so instead I just dress formal all of the time because it is always considered 'nice' and the standard rarely ever changes in any noticeable way.

Or, just, not judge others? Its one thing if someone looks like they crawled out of bed and didn't change, took a nap in the clothes they're wearing or are wearing dirty/smelling or unkempt clothes but if they're clean, nice clothes, do people really take notice and judge them just because they're canvas jeans and not polyester pants? If they do that's really just pathetic.

Besides that, its just some weird cultural convention that pants made out of oil and coal industry waste byproducts, that cost less, are more 'respectable' than cotton jeans that actually cost more (actually, after thinking of it that much, I don't ever want to wear slacks again. Jeans are made from wholesome plants, fake-fabric slacks are made from carcinogenic goop from under the sea.)

On a serious note, is it natural for coverts to go through a hyperdox stage and then to simmer down?

Really depends on the individual. Most Protestant converts like me will go through either one of two stages. The first being the Hyperdox stage, where they take everything ultra seriously but then simmer down after a few months. Or, the nothing-is-significantly-different approach where they still come and behave in an Orthodox Church in the same way they would in their former Church because they do not really believe there is much difference between the two. The former converts tend to know more about doctrine, but they simmer down and can be annoying when they are Hyperdox, while the latter tend to know less about doctrine and their new faith, but they are less annoying and more 'easy-going'.

Divine Liturgy, in particular, is a somewhat formal event (look at the priests, deacons, etc.). It's not a pool party with some worship thrown in

That is what, basically my priest said to me. Liturgy is not a casual event, nor should you treat it casually, or dress casually.

PP

Agreed. But before we judge others, we should first see what is going on in their lives. Are they poor? Can they afford to have a Sunday wardrobe in addition to a workday wardrobe? Did they just get off a night shift and didn't have time to change? Did they grow up with parents who never taught them the value of dressing modestly or appropriately? Are they seeking attention? Are they just young and part of the generation that has no concept of formal attire and just needs some gentle guidance?

During my first passion gospels service, I started to feel ill and sat in the pew for a bit instead of standing, and a woman from the choir behind me tapped me and said that if I couldn't stand I ahd to kneel...

See, this is why I'm glad no one has ever done that to me. If they had, I'd have given them half the peace sign...

I would have turned around and thrown up on her.

LOL. Seriously though, some folks in church need to get a life and mind their own business.

Our priest was encouraging folks to come to the Passion Service last week and he pointed out that while there is a lot of standing, at least the clergy get to move around during the course of the service while the laity have to be in one spot. Because of that he said no one should feel that if they feel ill or weak that they should just sit in the pew for awhile and that no one should take it upon themselves to be the 'pew police.'

I'm sure this happens in many places, but one of my favorite parts of the Passion Week and Paschal services is to see who breaks the ice, as it were, and sits down first.

During Rosh Hashana & Yom Kippur there are standing prayers that last hours, our rabbi always prefaces this by syaing "this isn't a physical endurance test, if you get tired sit down."

While we're on the subject of what to wear for church and such, I don't think it's always as simple as "mind your own salvation and don't correct other people's behavior". Sometimes it's one's duty to admonish one's neighbor, not in order to judge, but in order to avoid scandal and help your brother know the right way. Minding one's business is the right overall principle, but sometimes one's business does overlap with others'.

I'm not saying this to argue that you should go out of your way to scold everyone who turns up to church in shorts or miniskirt, but that one shouldn't also think the worst of those who do feel the need to say something about it. Don't we want our churches to be well ordered?

Which is why I separated out the priest and a godfather from 'random strangers'. If the priest wants to give general instructions to the parish or specific instructions to an individual, that is completely within his role as "Father" to the parish. And if my godson ever showed up to Church in shorts, he would certainly hear about it from me whether he asked or not. But that's within the context of a more complete relationship. If I don't know the person, if I don't why they are dressed the way they are, what resources they have (i.e., I know my godson has plenty of nice clothes he could wear), what happened that day (coming straight from work or a sick relative's), whether they are an inquirer or a lapsed cradle just making their first tentative approach to the Church, etc, then it's best if I leave it someone who does have that relationship (and that authority) that I lack.

Christ says the Good Shepherd leaves behind the 99 good sheep to go find the one lost. I'd rather that 99 good parishoners be annoyed at the guy's shorts than that anyone takes an action that sends him back into the wilderness.

For it were better to suffer everything, rather than divide the Church of God. Even martyrdom for the sake of preventing division would not be less glorious than for refusing to worship idols. - St. Dionysius the Great

Ah you fell for it my brother. If you asked them they will tell you most assuredly that they are NOT part of the UGCC albeit they are Greek Catholics and presently their region has been placed in Ukraine. They are Greek Catholics of the Eparchy of Muchachevo and like their 'rusnak' cousins in the USA - be they 'rust-belt' OCA, ACROD or BCC today - they are very territorial regarding their traditions and their distinctiveness from their neighbors - close as they may appear to the outside eye!

I agree with you, but they dont appear so close to me... I mean to a very outsider it would all look like a Slavic Byzantine style. But to me, this Mukachevo eparchy looks much more like the UOC-MP, than it looks like the UGCC.

Anyway, they do seem to be recognized by Rome as separate from the UGCC. But then I dont understand why they participate in the UGCC's conference of bshops. Shouldn't they withdraw to point out their independence?

I asked my mother to make shashlyk and she looked at me as if I had lobsters crawling out of my ears.

First problem. Only men make shashlyk.

Nonsense. I know several Harbintsy women who make it. And it's seriously good.

Chinese influence, clearly. Making 串 is a man's job (the real secret is that we can drink more if the women are inside not watching...).

Come to think of it, even in China I remember mostly men making 串. When I visited Harbin it was winter and -35 C, so no 串 at that time. Brrrr. The idea of women making 串 is clearly an innovation. Has the bishop been informed?

Ah you fell for it my brother. If you asked them they will tell you most assuredly that they are NOT part of the UGCC albeit they are Greek Catholics and presently their region has been placed in Ukraine. They are Greek Catholics of the Eparchy of Muchachevo and like their 'rusnak' cousins in the USA - be they 'rust-belt' OCA, ACROD or BCC today - they are very territorial regarding their traditions and their distinctiveness from their neighbors - close as they may appear to the outside eye!

I agree with you, but they dont appear so close to me... I mean to a very outsider it would all look like a Slavic Byzantine style. But to me, this Mukachevo eparchy looks much more like the UOC-MP, than it looks like the UGCC.

Anyway, they do seem to be recognized by Rome as separate from the UGCC. But then I dont understand why they participate in the UGCC's conference of bshops. Shouldn't they withdraw to point out their independence?

There are political realities in Ukraine which would make pulling out of the Bishop's conference a problem. I doubt that Bishop Milan wants to spend his days under house arrest like Orthodox Protopresbyter Dymytri Sydor for daring to challenge the status quo of the ruling factions. (Note: Fr. Sydor is the Dean of the UOC-MP cathedral in Uzhgorod and an outspoken advocate for greater autonomy for Transcarpathia within Ukraine. He is now precluded from public appearances, preaching on the airwaves and using the internet for at least the next three years. Bishop Milan's website is effectively continuing the work of showing the existance of a vibrant, quasi-independent Eparchy of Muchachevo and the demographic section of Transcarpathia which his Church serves and which is shared by their Orthodox 'cousins' allied with UOC-MP. As I have oft noted, the situation is 'complex.' )

Little Girl: *Dancing, jumping, playing etc.*Her Mother: Shhh! Try to be quietLittle Girl: *Is quite for two minutes then starts doing all of this again*Her Mother: Go sit down next to your father!Little Girl: *Sits down near her dad for five minutes then gets back up*Her Mother: What are you doing?Little Girl: I'm sorry mommy I'll be quiet, I promise.Her Mother: Good, now shh!

Random Guy: *Sneeze!*

Little Girl: *Walks up to him* Shhh!! My mommy says we need to be quiet in ChurchHer Mother: *Grabs her embarassingly and turns red*