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Does anyone know where is the music on this complete score when Batman first meets Gordon ("you're a good cop , one of the few") and has to escape from the police station?Thank you

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Hybrid Soldier

2012-07-24 09:56:36

The cue, called Batman Visits Gordon, is missing, like a few others : Courthouse Pt 2, Finch Is Killed & a part of Fight In Crane's Lab...

As for JNH's involvement, though crediting is quite hard cause the basic material for the score was written by both Hans & James, but I can tell you that he was "in charge" of :

Father To The RescueCampfireYour System Is BrokenHide In The DarkInitiation Into LeagueTemple FightReturn To GothamCrane Warns RachelThe Bat CaveWayne EnterprisesPrototypesBatman Visits GordonDockyard Ambush Pt1Meeting RachelMicrowave StolenFox Is FiredSurveying The Ruins

I miss a few, but you can certainly add to that cues like Finders Keepers Pt 1, Your Father's Name, Bruce Left For Dead.

That doesn't really seem like he did nothing... ;)

Hanzi

2012-07-24 10:04:43

Thank you for your answer Hybrid:)So that means the track 25. Batman Visits Gordon (1:12)included on some bootlegs contains FX?

Hybrid Soldier

2012-07-24 10:10:18

Yes they generally are DVD rips.

Hanzi

2012-07-24 10:20:51

Thank you for the information Hybrid :)Strangely I was sure the music from "Batman visits Gordon" was originally on the official soundtrack : my bad :)

Hybrid Soldier

2012-07-24 10:23:26

Not in Begins but in TDK's OST in "I'm Not A Hero", there's an almost identical reprise of it in it... :P

cheesy

2012-07-24 15:15:27

Are you sure about Initiation Into League/Bruce Left for Dead/Dockyard Ambush Pt. 1/The Bat Cave?

I don't mean to question you, but those sure sound a lot like Zimmer tracks to me. It'd be fascinating otherwise.

Mr. Charles

2012-07-24 19:22:48

Thanks for all the info, Hybrid. Like I said down below, trying to prove people wrong, Hans wrote the majority, JNH did the rest.

Now I have to agree with Cheesy, is "The Batcave" REALLY JNH? I know you have your sources Hybrid, but that's got Zimmer's main 2-note Batman theme in it, finishing off the track. I could swear it's Zimmer. But I'm not doubting you

Anonymous

2012-07-25 09:49:50

there are no missing parts Hybrid, those cues exist. I have those cues, and they are not dvd-rips

Mr. Charles

2012-07-25 16:27:32

Ya, I happen to have those "missing cues" as well, and they're genuine 320kbps. Clean, no DVD rip

cheesy

2012-07-26 06:41:52

Wat? Since when? Did I miss this party?

Bou

2012-07-27 09:39:13

You really think that if these famous "missing cues" were available , FX free , genuine or anything you prefer , they would not be included in the HZ.com BB tracklist?DVD rips! that's all FAKE!

Mike

2012-11-30 08:12:14

Regarding JNH and the Bat Cave: are you ABSOLUTELY sure that was Howard? Your System is Broken also sounded heavily "Zimmer" to me. I mean, you're the boss, but...

Mike

2012-11-30 08:13:48

Oh shoot, I feel annoying. Two people said the same thing above.

Anonymous

2013-08-01 16:43:41

JNH said he had a stronger presence in the first half of the film and Zimmer had a stronger presence in the second half, so those credits up there actually make some form of sense, even if JNH used Zimmer's themes a lot.

Anonymous

2013-08-01 22:18:47

I know this has no real basis, but if I had to guess which tracks were Zimmer based on Hybrid's list of Howard stuff, I would say Zimmer was "in charge of":

I think there's a lot of leeway with respect to who was "in charge of what" here, especially where Hans' two-note theme is prominent. Just recently in an interview for Dunkirk, Nolan talked about "Hans' music" during the Bat Cave scene of Begins, so Hans definitely was involved there.

Plus, the end of "The Bat Cave" is reprised a few times in TDK and TDKR, and in all those cases, it's Zimmer who's in charge. We know BB was a co-written score, so everyone was kind of involved with everything.

lordy

2017-08-12 09:34:53

Hybrid, is there an explanation why the cue "Courthouse Pt 2" missing?

Mike (OTM)

2017-08-12 18:01:11

Courthouse Part 2 isn't the only cue missing...We also have "Batman Visits Gordon," already mentioned, and also the cue when Carl, the DA, gets shot, and then Batman sees the kid in the Narrows. I really love the last cue, too. :(

Cameron

2017-08-12 19:40:01

Well, I guess that explains why JNH sounds like Zimmer quite a bit in that score. I wonder why they didn't use the same collaborative style in TDK.

Mike (OTM)

2017-11-16 01:05:55

@Cameron, they were located separately during the making of TDK, if I recall correctly. So work had to be more split up.

lordy

2018-03-15 20:58:48

@Mike (OTM): but any idea or explanation, why these cues are missing? especially why aren't they on the tracklist here on the official zimmer page?

Dawn

2018-03-16 00:48:07

@lordyThis all depends on how the music leaks. Many, many unofficial releases are incomplete. Mostly because :#1 they weren't properly ripped from the archives#2 all tracks couldn't be located#3 files are damaged#4 someone decided not to share them (but I doubt this as in this case the missing tracks seem quite random and far from being the iconic ones)

The only way to get them is to wait and hope for someone else to share a version from another source!

Whenever I listen to The Dark Knight, where Howard's involvement was diminished, and Rises, where it's pretty much absent, I realize how much heart he helped give to Batman Begins. His presence was there in The Dark Knight, but TDK was a Hans score with some James at specific points, because they were working separately during the process.

But Begins was really Hans and James (and Mel and Lorne and Ramin, too...) and it had more heartfelt moments consistently throughout. You can hear the musical relationships Bruce has with Rachel and with his parents, and it's a really nice complement to all the dark/brooding/ambient/action material. "Your Father's Name," "Father to the Rescue," and tons of other cues really give Begins a warmer sounding score and make it more well-rounded.

Hans wrote some emotional stuff in TDK and TDKR (particularly the Dark Knight suite), but that's more emotional in a powerful or tragic kind of way. James' contributions to these scores felt more emotional in a loving and deep kind of way. Has anybody else thought about this?

Also, while I'm here, if JNH had worked on TDKR, I wonder if the Harvey Dent theme would have come back for the subplot of his. I've always wondered why Hans and co. didn't bring that theme back. Instead, they kind of created a new theme for the Dent stuff ("The Truth About Harvey Dent" and "Gotham is Yours").

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James

2017-11-26 11:05:20

I also like Howard's contributions very much. Batman begins is the second among my two favourite scores of the Nolan trilogy. ;)

Unfortunately I think the contribution between JNH and HZ was always more a matter of support than the desire to do something together (Zimmer says inviting Howard to work with him was promise made in the middle of the years 90). Hans thought needed Howard's name beside him so his score was better accepted in the eyes of the aficionados by the music of 89. Not that he needed, of course. But doing the BB score and giving a new musical identity to Batman was one of the biggest challenges of his career.

James

2017-11-26 11:08:57

and Howard accepted the challenge, even with so many people going against the two working together. It was a riot at the time. lol

Hans & James were going to score Secret Window together but James was too exhausted after The Village to dive into it so they cancelled. And when Nolan came to Hans, Hans' first reaction was to bring James...

Also, if Begins blends more as a collaboration between the two, it's because of Ramin, who's style can match both Hans & James perfectly... :)

James

2017-11-26 12:26:04

lol

Thank you for your attention, Hybrid!I always let myself think too much about certain situations. I've gone too far, I recognise. Particularly I don't know anything about the behind the scenes of the productions. I couldn't even do it. I don't live in the USA. :DBut the impression I've always had is that James has always been there to give a "hi" and satisfy Hans ' willingness to see them working together.Wanting or not, TDK trilogy music was not destroyed by criticism because of Howard's involvement. Unfortunately they tend to exaggerate in negative commentary when the name of Zimmer is associated with the score.

Mike (OTM)

2017-11-26 23:50:27

Interesting, Hybrid, about Ramin...We know he worked on Training and the Ra's al Ghul suite, which both sound like a bridge between Zimmer and Howard. Do you know what other cues he worked on? And for that matter, out of curiosity, do you have any knowledge of what cues are primarily Hans? It's easier to tell what's James, whereas Hans could be Hans + Ramin, Lorne, or Mel... So it would be intriguing to know which cues are 90% Zimmer or more.

Question about "Batman On Fire," the film version. I seem to have heard another mix where the opening synth, instead of fading in, starts right up and is rather jarring. It's hard to explain without being able to upload it, but does anyone know what I'm talking about?

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skeletonmage

2017-08-09 00:33:06

The film version starts with the alternate and switches over to the non-alternate in the middle.

Does anyone have the film version of "Backup" here? While the Lorne Balfe cue and end credits versions are both really good, I would be extremely interested in the film edit if it's available.

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Mike (Otm)

2017-06-07 16:14:02

Agreed. Love the film version.

superultramegaa

2017-06-10 21:07:01

Also, I'm curious about a particular song in this score, "Courthouse Part 1," was that Hans Zimmer? I always thought it sounded like some of Zimmer's emotional suites in thing like "Bootstrap Bill" in Pirates of the Caribbean 1, or "You're my Boy" in The Amazing Spider-Man 2. Plus I think the choir they use in "Courthouse" and "Mugging Part 2" is Zimmer as he uses it in TDKR (I know that's not proof but it's an assumption,) and similar notes appear in Ra's Al Ghul's death and Dockyard Ambush's ending. Plus JNH's version of "Courthouse," in TDK in "I Am The Batman" sounds very different, so I'm really wondering how much involvement he had in the track.

I noticed recently how quietly mixed the "Prototypes" cue is in the movie. Weird considering that Nolan usually likes the music to be loud (as Hans himself said in a Q&A session once). A shame, cause it's a neat cue and you can barely hear it.

For those, like me, who are wondering how much of Batmobile Chase was really Lorne Balfe's creative genius, listen to the "Final Confrontation" cue (the one right before Train Fight). If Hans did that cue, then we can know Batmobile Chase is at least 95% Zimmer, even if Lorne Balfe TECHNICALLY arranged it.

Hybrid has said a billion times that such a thing is impossible. We know the following:

Ramin Djawadi was involved with Training and LasiurusLorne Balfe was involved with Batmobile Chase and BackupMel Wesson did the ambient material in the scoreAnd then the James Newton Howard contributions are, generally, rather obvious. But he uses a lot of HZ material and style throughout the score, so it's not black and white.

Edmund Meinerts

2014-02-11 15:28:32

Yeah. Plus, Hybrid posted a list of cues that JNH was "in charge of" just below this thread.

RealFfingMusic

2014-02-11 15:39:55

Sorry, didn't know the detailed history.:)

RealFfingMusic

2014-02-11 15:45:20

Was Vespertilio re-used in DKR?

Mike

2014-02-11 16:16:29

Well, not exactly like that....It's the main theme throughout the films, so it popped up essentially at various points, but the closest thing to it being used directly in TDKR was the Hospital Visit cue.

hybrid, zimmer wrote the theme used in training right? because he used that theme again in tdk and there was no ramin credit.

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Mike

2014-02-10 17:26:21

This is something I wondered myself as well. Cause if Ramin really wrote that theme (as opposed to just arranging it after Hans wrote it), he basically wrote the most important theme out of the trilogy (and the theme which made the endings of TDK and TDKR so memorable).

In Kung Fu Panda, certain ghostwriters would be involved with each specific composer (Paul Mounsey did cues for Powell while Lorne did cues for Zimmer, for example). Was it similar here? Like, if Ramin Djawadi did some cues, they were for Zimmer, not Howard?

I honestly think this is one of the best scores ever written. Proof of this comes from the fact that it's been copied by every action film and movie trailer since 2005. It's just a genius piece of work and fits the movie perfectly.

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Ted

2013-06-15 22:25:30

You have a really bizarre idea of what "proof" is. The score is copied because Batman Begins and The Dark Knight were successful and revolutionized superhero movies in general. Now every director wants their films to be like Nolan's films and that includes music that sounds like Zimmer.

This reminds me: can anyone tell me why these scores contain cues as originally recorded, but not the final film versions also/instead (like Backup)?

Mike

2013-05-20 05:22:33

If I had to guess, I would say the purpose of the cue sheet is to determine what goes where...Not to document all the music written/used, necessarily...I dunno. It is a shame, though. The film version of Backup is intense.

Anonymous

2013-05-27 21:16:32

Speaking of Backup, I find it really interesting that even though Lorne Balfe arranged the cue, we now know:

--what Backup would sound like if Lorne were totally in charge of it (the cue on his site)--what Backup would sound like if whoever the music mixer was had his way with Lorne's cue (the film version)--and now, what Backup would sound like if Hans Zimmer was in charge: 1:10-2:43 in "Imagine the Fire"!

Dawn

2013-05-27 23:45:22

Mmmhhh honestly, I think that, though Lorne has Backup on his website, he only arranged some HZ suite/material. For me Backup is 100% HZ, but Lorne was asked to arrange the cue to the picture. The same way there's this long HZ "Wayne Manor" suite from TDKR that was arranged to the picture by other team members.

Mike

2013-05-28 05:27:10

It seems slightly unfair to me to compare Backup to TDKR's score. Because with TDKR's score, the material from the suites is hardly changed at all. For example, pretty much all the Bane music heard in the movie, or cues like "Blake Visits Wayne Manor", "Take Me to Bane", "Not Meant to Die Here", "He Was the Batman", "No Stone Unturned"--whether or not they were arranged by Hans, they appear in the film exactly as Hans wrote them in his suites. Thus, it truly is 100% Hans.

But something about Backup feels like more than JUST an arrangement of pre-existing themes. As much as Lorne borrowed from existing thematic material, it seems to be far more "original" than the cues from TDKR and Lorne truly deserves to call it his.

@Hybrid (or anyone else capable) Do you think we could get a track list/log for which composers wrote which cues, like we got with TDK? I've always wondered whether it was HZ or JNH who wrote the music for Ra's Al Ghul.

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Agnt007dman

2011-08-02 00:08:57

Yes, I second this! Please Hybrid, please!

Yusef

2013-05-21 19:36:48

I'm pretty sure the Ra's al Ghul theme was JNH.

billy

2013-05-22 19:17:32

I remember that once Hybrid had made a credits list for the OST and the Lasiurus track (which is the Raís Al Ghul Suite) was written by JNH.

Hybrid Soldier

2013-05-22 19:35:44

Actually after I asked, I was told Djawadi did work on Lasiurus. Did he write it all ? Arrange it ? No idea, but he surely was on it.

What's the probability of this score seeing an official expanded release like the second movie got?

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Mike

2013-05-20 09:06:39

Rather low, m'friend. Hans Zimmer scores almost never get expanded releases. Hans himself isn't big into those, for some reason (he would do well to learn from Lorne Balfe in that regard... :P). The only reason The Dark Knight got an extended release was because the movie was so immensely popular and that would give the studio even more money. I assume the same can be said for the upcoming Man of Steel album: either the studio is convinced that the film will make a lot of money, and so releasing more music is worth it, or Water Tower had grat sales with The Hobbit's score.

Either way, I wouldn't hold out for a Batman Begins "official" expanded release short of divine intervention. Though believe me, I'd be quite happy if such a thing happened.

Hybrid Soldier

2013-05-20 10:09:55

Actually, HZ isn't "against" the idea... Trust me if there's one who would like to see mixes of TLK, TTRL or Black Hawk Down released, it's him !

The problem is he doesn't really have time to give to the past, it's always "the next project" and it never ends.

Anonymous

2013-05-20 18:09:23

I wish he would pass it on to someone else to do. I'm sure someone at RCP would love to be given a unique project like that. I know I would haha.

Mike

2013-05-20 21:45:59

Interesting...Well, maybe one day he'll be able to take a break like John Powell is doing and get stuff like this rolling.

Lucius

2013-05-20 21:53:20

I concur, Anonymous. I love hearing that Hans Zimmer will be scoring a film, but there are a lot of "blossoming" talents at RCP who would probably appreciate the chance to do whole scores and not just additional music/arrangements.

Anonymous

2013-05-20 22:01:50

I don't suppose there are any petitions for a two-disc BB soundtrack floating around, are there? :P

Aragorn

2013-05-20 22:03:04

Do petitions work for this kinda thing?

Mike

2013-05-20 22:05:41

Actually, if I'm remembering correctly, I believe it was a petition that got the first Transformers score released (and that was an excellent album if you ask me!).

Hybrid Soldier

2013-05-20 22:22:55

The CD was always planned. Like Armageddon, just very bad timing...

Gator

2013-05-21 01:25:16

Yes, the Transformers score was planned from the very beginning, and it was decided to have it released at the same time as the DVD.Not knowing that, many people got pissed, and started a (useless) petition.

This has to be my favorite score of this trilogy. There was a mysterious quality to it that the others lacked. Maybe it was because it used the two-note theme a lot, which Zimmer said "almost had a question" in it.