Other Metagames[National Dex AG] Zyg & Birds (Peaked #3 1791 Elo)

Ace Poker Player

Yes, part of the reason why I choose this music is because it kinda sounds like the name of the team, but it still is good

Introduction​

Hey everyone, I was a Ubers player last generation, but seeing how National Dex Ubers is taking quite some time to release and that was what I was looking forward the most this generation, I turned to AG now and actually had some fun. I'm not a very experienced builder and I mostly use teams made by other players, but I did create some on generation 7 that had quite a bit of success, so I decided to try it here too. If you know me, you'll easily see that Zygarde is my favorite, and part of the reason why is how fun it is to use it offensively, as even defensive sets can become a threat. When Dynamax was announced to double your HP, of course Zygarde was one of the first Pokémon that I had in mind, but until now, I didn't see many people using it like I normally like to use, which was the last thing that made me decide to do this RMT. With that said, let's go to the teambuilding:

Teambuilding Process

The team starts with the core of defensive Zygarde and Ho-Oh, which is one the most powerful balanced cores right now. While Zygarde can cover many physical threats like Primal Groudon and Mega Rayquaza, Ho-Oh can deal with Fairy-types like Xerneas and the newcomer Zacian, who is centralizing the tier by quite a bit due to its sheer power and Speed.

Choice Scarf Yveltal came next as a way to deal with Pokémon like Mewtwo and Lunala, which could give to the first two Pokémon a hard time, while also giving Speed control and a pivot to the team. It also helps with Pokémon that could be threatening if Zygarde or Ho-Oh are weakened, like Marshadow, Necrozma-DM, and Ultra Necrozma, and outspeeds Eternatus, which is another Pokémon that is on the rise.

Seeing how the team had two Fairy weakness already and Ho-Oh can't phaze Xerneas out with Dynamax, Sp. Def Necrozma-DM became a natural option that also gave the team Stealth Rock. It also is another Zacian check, as Wild Charge can 2HKO Ho-Oh, making it not the best option to run alone.

Those two came almost together. Even if Zygarde can setup on the late-game, the team lacked immediate wincons, so Zacian and Rayquaza looked very attractive while helping with other Pokémon that were hard to deal with, like Primal Groudon, Yveltal, Primal Kyogre, and Eternatus.

The Pokémon that the team started with, Zygarde. Thousand Arrows hits the entire meta at least neutrally, which allows it to remain mono-attacking. Coil not only helps against physical attackers that can boost themselves, like Primal Groudon and Arceus, but also makes it a viable win condition on the late-game while not being to weak to Ditto. Rest offers recovery and cure it from status, allowing it to easily switch into things like Toxic Ho-Oh. Glare cripples almost any Pokémon that would dare to switch into it and has the potential of giving free turns. Dynamax is essentially impossible to OHKO, seeing as even Zacian deals less than 30% with a +1 super effective Play Rough, while Max Quake gives it Sp. Def boosts to help its weaker side even after it goes away.

Making a very powerful core with Zygarde, Ho-Oh comes next. Ho-Oh checks a lot of the meta, like Zacian, Xerneas, Ferrothorn, and support Arceus formes, via its typing, movepool, and Regenerator keeping it healthy throught the match. Sacred Fire is key to hit those Steel-types and has a high burn chance, while Brave Bird is pretty spammable due to its high power, high PP and good typing. Toxic is used against bulkier Pokémon like Arceus and Groudon and do not let them to switch into it for free. Whirlwind stops Ho-Oh from being setup bait against things like Mega Rayquaza without risking Sacred Fire not burning and helps against Substitute users like Vivillon. Ho-Oh is also able to clean on late-game with Dynamax, as it can setup its own sun and boost its Speed while being capable of taking many hits. Heavy-Duty Boots removes Ho-Oh's main weakness in Stealth Rock, and while the EV spread is essentially the same as the standard defensive set, 8 Speed EVs allows it to outspeed Zacian at +2.

Yveltal gives Speed control to the team and offers a powerful Dark-type STAB to hit strong Psychic-type Pokémon, like Mewtwo and Lunala, which could give this team a bad time. Dark Pulse is pretty easy to spam in general due to Dark being strong now and has a flinch chance, which can save games in an emergence. It also does good damage to Eternatus, which is very dangerous to the team. Oblivion Wing is nice for some recovery and hits Pokémon like Marshadow while dealing decent damage to Xerneas. Foul Play allows it to revenge kill Pokémon like Ultra Necrozma and discourages physical setup; it even 2HKOes Zacian, so it's not a free switch for it and is able to revenge kill it. U-turn has nice utility by pivoting out and opens some opportunities for Zacian and Rayquaza. Its Dynamax potential isn't as used as the others, but being able to switch moves still is good, and Max Darkness is more powerful than it actually seems, OHKOing Trick Room Necrozma and 2HKOing Pokémon like Arceus and defensive Ho-Oh.

Necrozma-DM comes as the main answer to Xerneas, which can't be dealt with just Ho-Oh when Dynamax is in play. By using Dynamax itself, it can easily take even +2 Max Flare while 2HKOing it back with Max Steelspike. It also is another check to Zacian, which, when running Wild Charge, could almost beat the other Pokémon on the team by itself, and gives the much needed Stealth Rock support to break Focus Sash. Morning Sun gives it longevity and Toxic is good for when Primal Groudon and Ho-Oh want to come in, while also letting it beat most Arceus formes. Like said before, Dynamax Necrozma can take hits from +2 Xerneas, but not only that, it can also boost its own Defense and stall poison turns against Pokémon that resist Steel, like Primal Kyogre.

Zacian is a very good revenge killer that can also clean late-game. It deals with dangerous Dark- and Dragon-types and other fast Pokémon, like Yveltal, Mega Rayquaza, Mewtwo, and Mega Gengar. Substitute is mainly to prevent Ditto from trying to come in and get a +2 boost, but it's also good to scout for some moves and take advantage of forced switches. It also protects it from status moves, like Spore and Nuzzle from Smeargle and Sleep Powder from Vivillon. Play Rough is its main move and key to hit the Pokémon mentioned earlier. Close Combat hits Steel-types like Necrozma-DM and Ferrothorn and other Pokémon that resist Fairy like Groudon for good damage, while Wild Charge 2HKOes Ho-Oh and Toxapex and OHKOes Primal Kyogre.

The final member of the team, Mega Rayquaza comes as a setup sweeper and revenge killer. Its typing, ability, and power is mainly helpful for Primal Groudon and not allowing Primal Kyogre to just click Water moves. Dragon Ascent is extremely powerful and OHKOes many Pokémon, like Primal Kyogre, and when coupled with Dragon Dance, pressures most defensive Pokémon, like support Arceus formes and Lugia. The Speed boost from Dragon Dance also makes it faster than Zacian and Eternatus. Earthquake hits most of the few Pokémon that could take one Dragon Ascent, like Necrozma-DM and Zacian, and can hit Groudon without lowering its defenses. Extreme Speed is a priority move that helps it revenge killing faster Pokémon, especially those that can boost their Speed with Dynamax, like Mewtwo, and against Ditto.

Threat List​

: Eternatus outspeeds more than half the team, has a reliable recovery move, and can hit most Pokémon hard with Dynamax Cannon and Flamethrower. The main counterplay is by not letting it come for free; if it becomes paralyzed, it's almost a non-issue, Yveltal and Zacian are faster than it and Rayquaza can finish it off with Extreme Speed. Another option is using Dynamax to catch it off guard, especially with Ho-Oh.

: if Vivillon gets to be the last Pokémon on the opposing team and has a opportunity to setup, it's hard to take it down without some luck. Ho-Oh can phaze it out, take many hits and hit it hard back, and so can Necrozma outside of the phazing part, while Rayquaza and Yveltal are naturally faster and immune to webs, with Rayquaza having the added bonus of having priority. If Vivillon is behind a sub, but without a boost, Zacian can setup its own Substitute to avoid Sleep Powder.

: Primal Kyogre can almost always gets a KO every time it comes on the field if it has a good scenario. However, every Pokémon on the team can either cripple it with status or hit it back hard, so it can't come in directly most of the time.

: the team has counters to Lugia and status, but if you aren't careful enough, you may not be able to break it on the late game.

: Wild Charge and Close Combat / Crunch Zacian can threaten every Pokémon on the team; however, it does fail to OHKO 3 of them, and a well timed Dynamax can take it out. Variations without one of those moves aren't that hard to deal with.

: even by keeping it in mind during the teambuilding, Max Airstream Mewtwo still can be hard later on, but Zacian can outspeed it before a Speed boost, Rayquaza has priority if it's weakened, while the rest of the team can ofter take at least one hit, with Yveltal also outspeeding OHKOing it.

Conclusion​

Despite being my first try on AG, I had quite a bit of a success with the team, peaking top 4 (although I didn't take a screenshot at the time, it was a little above 1700) and possibly being able to go higher. It offers a nice defensive backbone without being too passive, which is the soul of bulky offense, and showcases well the Dynamax power of those Pokémon, as the four Pokémon capable of it can be useful with it depending on the match. Even with some hard matchups, I don't think there's any that is unwinable, although I did consider putting Defog somewhere to help against Vivillon on Sticky Web and something to better deal with Eternatus.Update: the updated version managed to get top 3 again and a even higher Elo than before, and probably still has the potential to go even further, due to being much more consistent overall.

Rayquaza-Mega @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Delta Stream
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Lonely Nature
- V-create
- Dragon Ascent
- Draco Meteor
- Surf
So this set is variable I use a plus atk nature for v create and ascent while surf still kills pdon and draco kills every dragon type in the game. He can tak a hit from ogre and hit an ascent after while not being scared of a switch from zacian d ascent does about 36% so if you have chipped the Zacian it will die anyway. A great lead for the team because it kills about everything especially if they have a pdon.

Banned deucer.

This team is pretty good and it whooped my ass on ladder a couple of times. Only suggestions I have are changing the EVs to these...

Zygarde:
252 HP / 248 Def / 8 Spd
Impish Nature

The reason for this is that 248+ Def EVs allow Zygarde to have a more "efficient" coil boost, because its defense stat becomes 374 instead of 375 (when Pokemon gain stat boosts, odd numbered stats always round down, so for instance, at +1 defense Zygarde would have 561 defense in both scenarios). Conveniently, 248 Def EVs also falls on a "magic" stat number. What I mean by this is that without the nature boost, Zygarde's defense stat is 340, which is a number ending in "0." This means that its defense stat gets the "full potential" boost from its nature. You can see what I mean by changing the EVs from 244 to 248, and then from 248 to 252. From 244 to 248 EVs, the defense stat gains +2, and from 248 EVs to 252 EVs, it gains +1. Also, I'd prefer putting the remaining 8 EVs in special defense but you can put them into the attack stat if you want.

Ho-Oh:
248 HP / 216 Def / 28 Spd / 16 Spe
Impish Nature

Ho-Oh should probably run 248 HP instead of 244 so that its HP stat is an odd number (this will make it take less damage from toxic and poison). Other than that, the defense investment is pretty much self-explanatory.

*changed my speed suggestion from 0 investment to 16 EVs

Yveltal: no change needed

Necrozma:
248 HP / 36 Def / 224 Spd
Careful Nature

This is just a case of giving it an odd number HP stat (which will make it take 1 point of damage less from stealth rock) and making its special defense a "magic" stat number (that ends in "0").

Zacian:
8 HP / 248 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature

This is a super minor tweak but it "minimizes" the HP lost from substitute (because it makes the HP stat divisible by 4 and then -1 to make it an odd number).

Rayquaza:
252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature

This is another super minor tweak but it would probably be better to have the extra 4 EVs in defense instead of special defense to absorb priority moves better (obviously it makes almost no difference whatsoever).

Interesting team. I'm not going to make any structural changes, but just suggest a few set optimizations

I usually put 16 as opposed to 8 Speed EVs on Ho-Oh, which lets you outspeed Adamant Mega Rayquaza at +1

I generally prefer running a physically defensive spread of 252 HP / 252 Def Impish on Dusk Mane to handle Zacian better; you're still able to survive +2 Max Lightning for Xerneas and check it in a pinch. Another option is a mixed spread of 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 SpD Impish, which lets you switch into Jolly Zacian with rocks up and still survive Xerneas' +2 Max Lightning -> +2 Max Lightning in eterrain while Dynamaxed

Was going to make a post on this later in the discussion thread, but bblade may be the superior option to Play Rough on Zacian. bblade hits harder, is more accurate, deals more damage to Dynamaxed Pokemon, etc. so it should be the default option. You don't need Play Rough for offensive Pokemon like mray/ultra/yveltal as they nearly get OHKOed by unresisted bblade anyway. The only cases for which Play Rough is more beneficial is when it's super effective and the target is either (1) insanely fat or (2) resists bblade, and this applies to very few Pokemon:

Zygarde (not OHKOed by Play Rough anyway)

Giratina (nonexistent)

Zekrom (no one is trying to setup with this on Zacian)

Arceus-Water and Primal Kyogre (already hit by Wild Charge)

Play Rough is still nice in Ubers mainly for Quagsire, but there's not much reason to use it in AG.

Lastly, I'm not a big fan of Glare on Zygarde. If you had some more slow breakers to abuse it, such as Primal Kyogre, then I could understand. However, it's actually counterproductive on this team, because if you accidentally Glare a support arc then you can't poison it with Ho-Oh or Dusk Mane. Additionally, opposing teams with Ho-Oh + Zygarde can just infinitely switch around to wall your Zygarde (this is a good replay demonstrating what I mean). The set I prefer rn is coil + dtail, which lets you actually take advantage of Ho-Oh rather than getting walled by it.

Rayquaza-Mega @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Delta Stream
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Lonely Nature
- V-create
- Dragon Ascent
- Draco Meteor
- Surf
So this set is variable I use a plus atk nature for v create and ascent while surf still kills pdon and draco kills every dragon type in the game. He can tak a hit from ogre and hit an ascent after while not being scared of a switch from zacian d ascent does about 36% so if you have chipped the Zacian it will die anyway. A great lead for the team because it kills about everything especially if they have a pdon.

Did because I still needed a revenge killer and Surf is very good against Groudon, but changed it from Lonely to Naive as I sometimes needs the higher Speed tier, like against other Rayquaza and GeoMax Xerneas.

This team is pretty good and it whooped my ass on ladder a couple of times. Only suggestions I have are changing the EVs to these...

Zygarde:
252 HP / 248 Def / 8 Spd
Impish Nature

The reason for this is that 248+ Def EVs allow Zygarde to have a more "efficient" coil boost, because its defense stat becomes 374 instead of 375 (when Pokemon gain stat boosts, odd numbered stats always round down, so for instance, at +1 defense Zygarde would have 561 defense in both scenarios). Conveniently, 248 Def EVs also falls on a "magic" stat number. What I mean by this is that without the nature boost, Zygarde's defense stat is 340, which is a number ending in "0." This means that its defense stat gets the "full potential" boost from its nature. You can see what I mean by changing the EVs from 244 to 248, and then from 248 to 252. From 244 to 248 EVs, the defense stat gains +2, and from 248 EVs to 252 EVs, it gains +1. Also, I'd prefer putting the remaining 8 EVs in special defense but you can put them into the attack stat if you want.

Ho-Oh:
248 HP / 216 Def / 28 Spd / 16 Spe
Impish Nature

Ho-Oh should probably run 248 HP instead of 244 so that its HP stat is an odd number (this will make it take less damage from toxic and poison). Other than that, the defense investment is pretty much self-explanatory.

*changed my speed suggestion from 0 investment to 16 EVs

Yveltal: no change needed

Necrozma:
248 HP / 36 Def / 224 Spd
Careful Nature

This is just a case of giving it an odd number HP stat (which will make it take 1 point of damage less from stealth rock) and making its special defense a "magic" stat number (that ends in "0").

Zacian:
8 HP / 248 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature

This is a super minor tweak but it "minimizes" the HP lost from substitute (because it makes the HP stat divisible by 4 and then -1 to make it an odd number).

Rayquaza:
252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature

This is another super minor tweak but it would probably be better to have the extra 4 EVs in defense instead of special defense to absorb priority moves better (obviously it makes almost no difference whatsoever).

Didn't do most of those as they fall under the other suggestions given by others that I foung fit the team better. Ho-Oh shouldn't remove that much Sp. Def as that kinda removes the point of its investment, trying to survive a +2 Thunder from Xerneas, and Zacian already had 4 Sp. Def EVs instead of HP, making it able to put 4 Substitutes already.

Interesting team. I'm not going to make any structural changes, but just suggest a few set optimizations

I usually put 16 as opposed to 8 Speed EVs on Ho-Oh, which lets you outspeed Adamant Mega Rayquaza at +1

I generally prefer running a physically defensive spread of 252 HP / 252 Def Impish on Dusk Mane to handle Zacian better; you're still able to survive +2 Max Lightning for Xerneas and check it in a pinch. Another option is a mixed spread of 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 SpD Impish, which lets you switch into Jolly Zacian with rocks up and still survive Xerneas' +2 Max Lightning -> +2 Max Lightning in eterrain while Dynamaxed

Was going to make a post on this later in the discussion thread, but bblade may be the superior option to Play Rough on Zacian. bblade hits harder, is more accurate, deals more damage to Dynamaxed Pokemon, etc. so it should be the default option. You don't need Play Rough for offensive Pokemon like mray/ultra/yveltal as they nearly get OHKOed by unresisted bblade anyway. The only cases for which Play Rough is more beneficial is when it's super effective and the target is either (1) insanely fat or (2) resists bblade, and this applies to very few Pokemon:

Zygarde (not OHKOed by Play Rough anyway)

Giratina (nonexistent)

Zekrom (no one is trying to setup with this on Zacian)

Arceus-Water and Primal Kyogre (already hit by Wild Charge)

Play Rough is still nice in Ubers mainly for Quagsire, but there's not much reason to use it in AG.

Lastly, I'm not a big fan of Glare on Zygarde. If you had some more slow breakers to abuse it, such as Primal Kyogre, then I could understand. However, it's actually counterproductive on this team, because if you accidentally Glare a support arc then you can't poison it with Ho-Oh or Dusk Mane. Additionally, opposing teams with Ho-Oh + Zygarde can just infinitely switch around to wall your Zygarde (this is a good replay demonstrating what I mean). The set I prefer rn is coil + dtail, which lets you actually take advantage of Ho-Oh rather than getting walled by it.

I changed Ho-Oh's spread, and I wanted to say that this Necrozma spread is the GOAT, greatly helped me. However, I kept Play Rough over Behemoth Blade on Zacian as the main point of it is being a offensive check to Yveltal, and Play Rough is crucial in that (especially as I'm seeing Heat Wave more and more, and the ones that don't use it run Foul Play, which also 2HKOes it). I also kept Glare on Zygarde as, although I did use it a lot on Ubers, I couldn't make much use of it here when I tested it on this team, and the Speed control that Glare offered coupled with the paralysis chance were more useful on more games to me than Dragon Tail was.

Here's the new importable of the team:

I've also made a version featuring Groudon over Zacian that helps against opposing Zacian and Primal Kyogre, but I don't recommend it much due to the bigger weakness to Yveltal.