I'm not particularly good at typing people so I'm not sure maybe the people I tend to find frustrating are SJs? It would seem compared to all the other possible mindframes a person could receive as their lead on the test, Order, would be the one most likely to mean difficulties between the person and I. Do I think people that are comfortable and enjoy rules, regulations, and bureaucracy should be lined up against a wall and shot? No. I just don't want to be around them because I find them annoying.

"I trust what you are doing though…I just see it a little differently.
I don’t see it as you stepping away from the fire. I see it as the fire directing your course.
No matter how airy or earthy or watery you become... to many of us you will always be...a super nova."

That's true, about a lot of them. I could see "Proofread text for errors" and "Determine how much time is needed" as being things that not everyone is naturally good at -- especially if they're concept people and not detail people. But honest to god -- "Measure something accurately"? "Operate machinery and precision tools"???

Originally Posted by Pinker85

I'm a little frightened of anyone with a lead mind frame of order. *shudder*

I won't bite! Really!

(although I did LOL when I found out that my top two are Order and Control, just because that sounds so terrifying!)

Originally Posted by Pinker85

I'm not particularly good at typing people so I'm not sure maybe the people I tend to find frustrating are SJs? It would seem compared to all the other possible mindframes a person could receive as their lead on the test, Order, would be the one most likely to mean difficulties between the person and I. Do I think people that are comfortable and enjoy rules, regulations, and bureaucracy should be lined up against a wall and shot? No. I just don't want to be around them because I find them annoying.

Don't think of it as enjoying rules and regulations -- think of it as being comfortable with the familiar and the proven effective. SJs and "Order" people don't follow rules because they're rules, but they're more likely than other types to see those rules as valid, because they have faith in what has been proven to be effective. And if the rule has been proven to be ineffective, a minority of SJs/"Order" people would respect it as equal to "just" rules.

EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"

That's true, about a lot of them. I could see "Proofread text for errors" and "Determine how much time is needed" as being things that not everyone is naturally good at -- especially if they're concept people and not detail people. But honest to god -- "Measure something accurately"? "Operate machinery and precision tools"???

I won't bite! Really!

(although I did LOL when I found out that my top two are Order and Control, just because that sounds so terrifying!)

Well, it sounds like you have a promising career as a dominatrix. I hear they make pretty good money.

That's true, about a lot of them. I could see "Proofread text for errors" and "Determine how much time is needed" as being things that not everyone is naturally good at -- especially if they're concept people and not detail people. But honest to god -- "Measure something accurately"? "Operate machinery and precision tools"???

Dude, in all seriousness, some people totally suck at those things too...

Tbh, I considered the measuring one as one of the more relevant ones to my point.

Some people are precise about shit like that; some people absolutely suck at it.

It seems to have to do with a certain anal-retentiveness associated with Si.

(Based on my ISTJ father and his ridiculously meticulous measuring habits.)

[Center]The Justice Fighter

INTJ - 6w5 8dw 3w4 sx/so - Neutral Good

"I trust what you are doing though…I just see it a little differently.
I don’t see it as you stepping away from the fire. I see it as the fire directing your course.
No matter how airy or earthy or watery you become... to many of us you will always be...a super nova."

Because you employ it more often, a mindframe in your comfort zone will strongly influence your behavior. You'll find using it comfortable and enjoyable, so anything you handle in your comfort zone will be done with more enthusiasm and persistence. Whatever you get involved in, you'll do it well and accomplish a lot.

To build on your success:
Learn to be aware when you're operating in your comfort zone
When working in one of your comfortable mindframes, push yourself to higher levels of performance
Seek other projects, roles or jobs that require you to use your comfort zone

2. Stretch beyond your comfort zone.

You're less likely to use: CONTROL, SENSITIVITY, PROACTIVITY, LOGIC and ORDER .

Regardless of the job or task at hand, you won't be able to operate in your comfort zone all the time. So when the situation requires it, use one of the mindframes outside your comfort zone—even if you have to "stretch" to do so.

"Stretching" means making an extra effort to do what needs to be done, even if you consider it unfamiliar, uncomfortable or unpleasant. You don't have to change who you are. Just make a special exception to your usual pattern. Rather than neglect a requirement, make a deliberate decision to get the task done, whether you're inclined to do it or not. Once you've taken care of business, you can return to doing what's comfortable.

In addition, consider these methods for accomplishing tasks that are beyond your comfort zone:

Teaming—Make an effort to get along or work more smoothly with people who favor mindframes that you don't
Skills—Gain experience with techniques
Procedures—Follow job aids, menus and other guides
Devices—Employ technology to support your efforts

every normal man must be tempted, at times,
to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag,
and begin slitting throats.
h.l. mencken

Don't think of it as enjoying rules and regulations -- think of it as being comfortable with the familiar and the proven effective. SJs and "Order" people don't follow rules because they're rules, but they're more likely than other types to see those rules as valid, because they have faith in what has been proven to be effective. And if the rule has been proven to be ineffective, a minority of SJs/"Order" people would respect it as equal to "just" rules.

I think the issue is I don't often agree that the rules being enforced are valid or relevant. If it is 3am and there is no traffic I don't find anything wrong with crossing the street against the light. Rules and regulations are meant to serve a certain function or purpose. At 3am there is no traffic so why would I take note of a traffic light? My interaction with the world is similarly fluid because I think life is situational. What is optimal in one situation isn't necessarily optimal in another. I do see what you are trying to express and I do understand to some extent how people that have this perception preference might view the world. I've always been audacious and I've had to deal with a lot of people telling me that I wouldn't accomplish what I set out for myself. Maybe it wasn't the healthiest reaction but I just decided to almost write those people off. I think what frightens me about some people like this is that while they can exist in my world (just preferably somewhere else and far away from me) my orientation in life and that I've been able to find success in my wacky adventures and on my own terms seems to threaten the way they think things work.

I never take a test which asks me to register at the website. But I was intrigued by this one...

Originally Posted by EJCC

That's true, about a lot of them. I could see "Proofread text for errors" and "Determine how much time is needed" as being things that not everyone is naturally good at -- especially if they're concept people and not detail people. But honest to god -- "Measure something accurately"? "Operate machinery and precision tools"???

I can do 3/4 out of them. I'm very good at proofreading texts, measuring and operating tools.
But you'd be surprised at how many folks can't measure anything. I've seen strange things at the lab. They just can't keep their attention on it. "Add water till 10 ml in a flask; use a pipette" -> they use a measuring cylinder instead of a flask, which is less accurate; they just add water from the bottle, which means they get easily too much...
And as for operating precision tools: don't ask my hubby to do that. He calls himself clumsy, but I think he lacks experience (because everybody called him clumsy and didn't let him try enough) and patience (if a repairing task doesn't go well from the first go, he is frustrated, while I somehow already calculate "several tries" in the time such a task would take).

I think the issue is I don't often agree that the rules being enforced are valid or relevant. If it is 3am and there is no traffic I don't find anything wrong with crossing the street against the light. Rules and regulations are meant to serve a certain function or purpose. At 3am there is no traffic so why would I take note of a traffic light? My interaction with the world is similarly fluid because I think life is situational.

Like I said before, it has to do with what laws make sense. Therefore, I, and lots of "order" people/SJs would agree with you. The stop light laws make no sense when there's no one around and you're in a hurry. It definitely is situational -- and that's what I was talking about in my previous post.

Maybe it wasn't the healthiest reaction but I just decided to almost write those people off.

I'd argue to give them a second chance, just because people like that are not nearly as closed-minded as you think. I say this because I'm one of them.

I think what frightens me about some people like this is that while they can exist in my world (just preferably somewhere else and far away from me) my orientation in life and that I've been able to find success in my wacky adventures and on my own terms seems to threaten the way they think things work.

It's not scary if you prove them wrong.

They're just afraid of the unknown. If they see the way you operate and they realize that you're doing well despite being "different", then they'll absolutely respect your methods. I know this from experience, since one of my best friends is an ENTP who makes life choices that I would consider to be counterintuitive if not totally off-the-wall crazy. And yet, she is happy, and successful. So I respect her, and I admire her out-of-the-box style -- because in my mind, the results matter more than the method. (which is a VERY ESTJ thing, btw; you'll find very few ESTJs that disagree with me about results being more of an issue than process.)

Originally Posted by Zarathustra

Dude, in all seriousness, some people totally suck at those things too...

Tbh, I considered the measuring one as one of the more relevant ones to my point.

Some people are precise about shit like that; some people absolutely suck at it.

It seems to have to do with a certain anal-retentiveness associated with Si.

(Based on my ISTJ father and his ridiculously meticulous measuring habits.)

Originally Posted by Tamske

I never take a test which asks me to register at the website. But I was intrigued by this one...

I can do 3/4 out of them. I'm very good at proofreading texts, measuring and operating tools.
But you'd be surprised at how many folks can't measure anything. I've seen strange things at the lab. They just can't keep their attention on it. "Add water till 10 ml in a flask; use a pipette" -> they use a measuring cylinder instead of a flask, which is less accurate; they just add water from the bottle, which means they get easily too much...
And as for operating precision tools: don't ask my hubby to do that. He calls himself clumsy, but I think he lacks experience (because everybody called him clumsy and didn't let him try enough) and patience (if a repairing task doesn't go well from the first go, he is frustrated, while I somehow already calculate "several tries" in the time such a task would take).

You guys are right and I'm wrong. I guess I'm naive to the point that I haven't really encountered people like that before. I had been under the impression that anyone could be naturally talented at any of those things as long as they had enough practice (or, e.g., "Anyone can use this machine as long as they read the instruction manual first").

EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"