SallyT : You have a great weekend and holiday, too. Oh, thanks AdLib. She is so excited about it. So far likes it too!

AdLib : And props again to your daughter for nailing that job!

AdLib : Looks like it, Sally! Thanks for helping to make it another great conversation tonight! Have a great weekend and holiday!

SallyT : It seems we are always the two to turn off the lights.

SallyT : Well, my friend, it is just you and me again to close it down.

SallyT : I am with you there, Adlib!

AdLib : Sally – After seeing what happened with OWS, I have little trust in the NYPD to act as a responsible law enforcement group.

SallyT : I hope so, too, KQ! Have a good night and I will see you on here later.

SallyT : It’s like they get all dressed up for the parade and nothing happens and all they have left to do is clean up the shit after the horses. They want to be part of the action and even if they have to start it.

AdLib : Night KQ! Hope wifey has a smooth procedure and feels good quickly! Have a great weekend!

AdLib : A few quotes from the piece and a link to it, fascinating and a bit scary: “In 60 Minutes feature on NYPD anti-terror arsenal, top cop claims ability to “take down a plane”. Kelly has built something else that most New Yorkers never see. It is nearly impossible now to walk a block in lower Manhattan without being on television. There are 2,000 cameras, and soon there will be 3,000 – all of which feed into this control center housed in a secret location. Jessica Tisch: Nobody has a system like this. Jessica Tisch helps run this $150 million surveillance system that monitors the cameras and all those radiation detectors. A powerful computer, using artificial intelligence actually watches all of the cameras at once and it knows if a package has been left in one place too long. «link»

SallyT : You know, AdLib, I do see all those guys in their riot gear getting carried away. I mean, in a way, small way, they seem to be pushing for it in some cases.

SallyT : Well, I was just hanging out with you, two. When you guys go, I go.

AdLib : KQ – That’s not really the case about the NYPD. There was a 60 Minutes piece about how they are a militarily and intelligence trained mini army now, very sophisitcated and using high tech surveillance throughout Manhattan.

SallyT : That is just mean, AdLib!

KQµårk 死神 : Shit gotta go did not know how late it got. Gotta pay some attention to the wifey obviously she’s nervous about tomorrow.

KQµårk 死神 : To me comparing the FBI to the NYPD is like comparing the Maybery PD to Raleigh PD

AdLib : In Sacramento, the messed up mayor has outlawed the bringing of fresh water and portable toilets to where the homeless are and have been because they don’t want them “established” there. No water or bathrooms for human beings? Meanwhile, the ex-basketball player is trying to use city funds to remodel the basketball stadium!

KQµårk 死神 : IDK AdLib again that’s an assumption. I think they just pursue cases they think are a real threat. Are they perfect of course not. Are they over zealous of course. I really don’t see a quota system though.

AdLib : Just giving an example where law enforcement messed up. That time it was the NYPD but law enforcement can mess up. I do agree that Obama has been instituting reforms in the FBI and that Dems do make government work better…because unlike the GOP, their party isn’t premised on the idea that government is bad “and we’ll prove it!”

SallyT : I guess, AdLib. But, that like saying, “Yes, that plane crashed but look how many haven’t.” It is going to happen. And, if they don’t get the FDA up and running probably sooner then later!

KQµårk 死神 : Sally that’s for sure. He was the most powerful man in America for years and years with his rogue agency.

SallyT : Well, the FBI had J Edgar for way too long.

KQµårk 死神 : I think the whole OWS movement has showed how much state and local law enforcement agencies have to reform.

AdLib : Sally – I think part of this too is preparing Americans for the time that the next attack happens. There will be something else someday, they know it and I think they’d like to be able to say, “Damn, we stopped them the 10 previous times!”

KQµårk 死神 : Sure the Feds can eff up AdLib but giving an example where the Feds did not mess up doesn’t help the case that they will. There have been many reforms in the FBI and other agencies we don’t even know about. Just to pick one remember the huge effort Obama made to revamp the FBI’s investigation process. I doubt reformed stopped there. It just doesn’t make the news. I’ve always made a huge contention that Dems manage government better because they care about government and I think it’s taken a while and there are still rogue agencies but things are just not like they were before.

SallyT : That is sad. Too many are Vets, too.

AdLib : KQ – Just discussed this with Choicelady earlier in the week, the UN has called out Sacramento for its aggressive policies to harass and deny care and services for the homeless. The game is trying to harass them into “self-deporting ” soewhere else…but there is nowhere else nearby so they are just forced to suffer harassment.

SallyT : I hope they did everything right, too. But, I hate that they keep us in fear that there is someone out there that can blow us up. Yes, there are nuts out there but there will always be.

KQµårk 死神 : It’s almost impossible for the state to commit even the people who are most dangerous to themselves or society now. Worst of all millions go without any help at all.

AdLib : Just saying, if the NYPD can do this, is it possible some Feds could in certain instances?

KQµårk 死神 : The NYPD fucked up for sure AdLib. I doubt they did a proper psych profile at all.

SallyT : I remember that, KQ. Have I told you lately that I didn’t like Reagan?

KQµårk 死神 : It really was scandalous Sally. Reagan literally kicked out thousands and thousands of legitimate psych cases and that’s what made the homeless problem a bigger crisis.

AdLib : KQ – True but what about the NYPD?

AdLib : I say “Reagan” the same way Seinfeld said “Newman”!

KQµårk 死神 : AdLib this is a great example of the FBI showing proper restraint. I guess I just trust in this current case they did due diligence like in that case (the FBI at least) and saw he was a real threat.

SallyT : Oh, KQ, I blame Reagan for so many things I have no problem adding more!

AdLib : Check out this article, “The Idiot Jihadist Next Door”, about the guy I was thinking of that the NYPD and Bloomberg boasted about catching as a dangerous terroist…who was apparently just a doofus they entrapped: «link»

KQµårk 死神 : Blame Reagan then Sally. He changed the law where the Feds could get psych treatment for this guy and they would have had another option.

SallyT : Why carry it out to see how far he would go? Something was obviously wrong from the get go with the guy if he met with them to discuss him blowing himself up regardless of if he later said he wouldn’t.

KQµårk 死神 : My wife is one of those crime show buffs so I see allot of cases where someone would not act without an accomplice or and enabler. The problem in cases like this is what would happen if they guy was enabled by real terrorist. It seems like he would have acted. Now if the Feds knew this guy had that potential and he did find real terrorists and acted they would be called incompetent if they passed on this case.

SallyT : I’m sorry, KQ, I see it the same why rushed or played out, the guy was sick and should have been institionalized and treated to see if his mind could be saved.

AdLib : Remember that alleged group of terrorists arrested last year that was later attacked by friends and family of the men as saying they were mentally incompetent and incapable of carrying out what they were accused of?

AdLib : KQ – Exactly, we don’t know that anything improper was done in this case but the zealous nature of law enforcement in taking down terrorists can have its dark side.

KQµårk 死神 : I’m not naive either. I’m sure Holder is going to trumpet this case after the fact and kept an eye on it more than most cases.

KQµårk 死神 : Sally I don’t think you can have it both ways. If they rushed the guy people would cry he was pushed into it and if they give him time they were too persistent. The fact is cases like this take their own course and they are all different. We don’t know the facts maybe he said no at first and then a current event set him off there are hundreds of possibilities.

AdLib : KQ – Agree on that too, it was no doubt worse and more crooked under Bush.

AdLib : Sally – That’s what gives me pause. They followed him for a year and came to him posing as Al Qaeda. It certainly opens the door to questions.

SallyT : I can see hanging with the guy if you thought he had connections but it appears they knew he didn’t.

KQµårk 死神 : It may be AdLib but far less politics now than with Bush I’m sure. But I think internal politics are far different then external pressures. I hope at least Holder is not pounding the desk saying we need more terror cases.

SallyT : Why would you spend a year with a guy to find out if he would blow himself up? If you have the slightest idea that you have such an individual, institutionize him!

AdLib : KQ – There is always politics involved. Just like the ticket quotas cops have to hit, some tickets are unjustified but they have to validate their productivity. The Feds have to provide results that they are doing their jobs so it would not be far fetched to think that sometimes, they build up a situation to look good and justify their time spent on a case.

KQµårk 死神 : Now the DEA those are a bunch of over zealous assholes.

KQµårk 死神 : I guess I take for granted the Feds are more competent now. They have people that evaluate cases like this on a professional level including consultation with people who know psychology like they do with serial killers and such.

KQµårk 死神 : Actually I hope he gets the best defense with no conditions. I should have not tied those two thoughts together.

AdLib : KQ – You’re right, there have got to be a number of suspected terrorists that end up saying no to them. They were following and interfacing with him for a year though, that’s a lot of time to make an impression and be influential on someone as mentally unstable as this guy was. Still, he could have just been a time bomb himself, ready to do something like this if never influenced by them, I just don’t know.

SallyT : I see the real problem here in who said how to do it.

KQµårk 死神 : Don’t get me wrong either I hope this guy gets the best defense possible if they did anything improper. I just don’t think they pursue cases like this for any other reason than keeping people safe.

KQµårk 死神 : Sorry AdLib I had the wrong impression from the beginning then. I thought you were implying they framed this guy to validate the Patriot Act.

AdLib : KQ – I don’t know that the Feds did anything improper in this case. All that I know is that they masqueraded as Al Qaeda and I would imagine that they couldn’t have affirmed passivity and patience as opposed to taking aggressive action, if they wanted their ruse to appear genuine.

KQµårk 死神 : That happens I’m sure AdLib but I doubt this case was more like they caught this guy chattering about blowing up shit and wanted to see how serious he was. In this case he went all the way. The other question is how many times do the Feds start cases like this were the suspect says no? We don’t have that info but I bet it happens allot.

SallyT : I mean we help train them to fight the Russians.

SallyT : Well, AdLib, I guess some would say we did that in Afganstan when we helped them fight the Russians.

AdLib : There are some fascinating stories about Feds infiltrating organizations and even becoming leaders in terrorist organizations, to keep a handle on what they’re up to. But in the meantime, they are recruiting and training more terrorists. It can be a dirty little world and corners are cut at times, sacrificing one illegal act to stop a more dangerous one.

KQµårk 死神 : So what percentage of the time do you think this guy really spent with the Feds? I get the whole peer pressure and authority arguments but I doubt very much if the feds actually spent as much time with this guy for those to be the biggest factors in his decision making.

SallyT : I don’t think you can cool off a guy that is crazy enough to blow himself up! I see that he was looking to be a hero or something because the guy is sick in his head. Did these guys set up someone mentally disturbed I guess is yet to be determined.

SallyT : Oh, AdLib, there is entrapment! And there is planting of evidence. Sometimes they are right in doing it but there have been cases where they have entrapped the wrong guy.

KQµårk 死神 : Sally they have to allow some sort of cooling off period for these types of cases to be found legal. It’s not like the feds were pressuring him 24/7 like the experiment AdLib is talking about. I don’t know about this case but usually they give the suspect and out and ask them if they really want to do it.

AdLib : KQ – The experiment didn’t occur in a Nazi society but people willingly tortured and killed people (at least, that’s what they believed) anyway. It’s not about a society, it’s about being in an environment, even a small group of people, who are authoritarian and enable. In any case, I repeat, I don’t have any reason to state that it happened in this situation, just exploring this issue with you.

SallyT : But, KQ, you don’t see some “peer pressure” in this guys telling him that they agree that the operation should be carried out and he should be the guy to do it and they support him? I know it is crazy but that is my point, it is crazy for anyone to be put in that position and think it is right.

AdLib : Again, I have no facts or reasons to strongly state that there was any entrapment in this case. There is precedent however and a possibility in some instances where law enforcement encourages and lures people into committing crimes. Sometimes cops do plant a gun here or drugs there, it’s been proven. Sometimes they do step over the line. I do not have absolute trust in law enforcement but in general, I trust them. However, there have been a number of stories about alleged terroists arrested by the FBI who were really not capable of following through with the threat they made.

KQµårk 死神 : No question he was unbalanced but isn’t every suicide bomber unbalanced usually in an extreme way? It does not excuse them is my point.

KQµårk 死神 : Again AdLib I know the purpose of the experiments but we don’t even live in a Nazi society so that’s irrelevant as well. This guy was not under the closed conditions of and experiment or under Nazi peer pressure.

SallyT : I’m sorry guys but anyone that is willing to blow themselves up to kill someone else is crazy as far as I am concerned.

KQµårk 死神 : The last statement about never catching someone is just irrelevant. They would not be professionals if they did not pursue this case serious.

KQµårk 死神 : The fact is if this guy met with real terrorists I doubt he would have changed his thought processes. The defended in this case will be able to use the coercion defense. But legal precedent is on my side in this case. Stings like this happen all the time because the courts decided that as long as adults have enough time to consciously back out than the authorities have done nothing wrong.

AdLib : KQ – But the reason for the Milgram experiments was to understand how young people could become Nazis and commti the horrible acts of the Holocaust. Of course, those young men had years to realize what they were doing was wrong and never stopped.

KQµårk 死神 : I know what experiment you are talking about AdLib and I don’t even think it applies much here. This guy had weeks to consider this in an open society. The Milgram experiments were under controlled conditions.

AdLib : KQ – Generally, I agree that we are responsible for our actions. But in our legal system, mitigating factors are applied to assigning guilt for an action. For example, those who are not mentally equipped to understand the weight of their actions such as the mentally disabled, are not regarded as being responsible for their actions. There are such things as entrapment and coercion as legal reasons why someone is not responsible for their actions. Minors can sometimes be excused because of their age. BTW, I am very much a strong believer in people taking responsibility for the actions and I don’t know anything about this terrorist to say he was anything but. Just saying that there are few 100%s in life and I would find it unlikely that all those the FBI arrests on being potential terrorists are never coerced by undercover law enforcement to agree to something. I mean, if they never catch anyone, wouldn’t that look bad?

SallyT : Thank you, KQ. Sorry, I can’t believe I missed this!

KQµårk 死神 : That’s all we can do AdLib. Here’s the link Sally. My computer crashed so I was scrambling to get it back. «link»

SallyT : When, where and what did this 29 year old guy do?

SallyT : Don’t you two leave without telling me who this guy is??!!

SallyT : Oh, I saw that AdLib on some show!

AdLib : Ok KQ, we disagree on this one. Has to happen once in a while!

AdLib : Milgram’s experiment had to do with telling one subject to use a device to electrically shock another person (though it was a recording that had screams on it, louder as the voltage was turned up). And for the most part, people were willing when enabled to shock other people to death.

KQµårk 死神 : So are people not responsible for their actions or not AdLib? That’s the fundamental question.

SallyT : KQ, who is this guy? I missed all this I guess. I don’t know what you guys are talking about.

KQµårk 死神 : AdLib I don’t care about that argument either. I believe people ultimately have the free choice to make their own decisions. It’s not like this guy was a teenager. He was 29 years old.

SallyT : So, they see it as just a job?

AdLib : Here’s a quote from Milgram’s results: “Ordinary people, simply doing their jobs, and without any particular hostility on their part, can become agents in a terrible destructive process. Moreover, even when the destructive effects of their work become patently clear, and they are asked to carry out actions incompatible with fundamental standards of morality, relatively few people have the resources needed to resist authority.”

SallyT : I don’t know, AdLib. But I don’t understand racisim either.

AdLib : Sally – Right! The Milgram Experiments which I mentioned below, were based on an exploration of how so many Germans could do so many horrible things under Hitler’s reign. All the Jews horribly tortured and murdered by soldiers, some of whom were previously just regular people and students. How can people be conditioned into doing horrible things?

SallyT : That is also why it is so hard on those boys when it is over and they have to readjust to society.

SallyT : However, they are told those are the bad people and they should be killed.

SallyT : And, those are boys that would never have thought of killing anyone before they got into the service/war.

AdLib : Sally, that’s what boot camp is all about, training the minds of people to be soldiers, following commands, operating in dangerous surroundings and being capable of attacking and killing others designated as the enemy.

AdLib : KQ – It’s not a liberal argument, it’s a fact that psychiatric studies have proven. You’re familiar with the Milgrim Experiments? Even well adjusted people can become capable of cruelty and the death of others if enabled by authority figures.

MurphTheSurf3 : ADLIB…oh! I have not forgotten the idea of a “discussion group” focused on a big themed article (ala Sullivans or Fallows…how do I contact you?

SallyT : Night Murph!

SallyT : Okay, AdLib and KQ, what is this about? I must have been asleep. What Terrorist attack?

AdLib : Night Murph!

KQµårk 死神 : TC Smurf.

AdLib : Sally – I didn’t see that show on PBS and I am somewhat familiar with that horrible episode in American history, the post Civil War era and Reconstruction was a disaster for black people and a reversal of what was being fought for.

KQµårk 死神 : I know the liberal argument AdLib. I just don’t agree with it. Duh unbalanced people are the ones that attempt these acts of terror like the shoe bomber and Times bomber. The fact is if this guy met with terrorists he would have attempted a terrorist attack so it’s good they caught him before he could.

AdLib : Murph – Yes, I saw that and it is funny. How about organizing them on a cliff and suggesting they follow the Lemmings you’ve released who are leaping off the cliff? Have a great holiday weekend!

SallyT : Murph, you could be our undercover agent or a double agent.

AdLib : KQ – There are many criminal cases where you find people got to the point of being willing to commit a crime because of how someone else enabled them. I would agree that some people are flat out terrorists but there are many unbalanced people out there who with the right push from the right person, could become a terrorist when they might not otherwise have made the jump.

MurphTheSurf3 : Well time to pack it in….Ad Lib, did you see the comment I left re. how my voting in the Mo. GOP primary has me on their potential donor and volunteer list (and someone has told them I am a good organizer- a bit of joke I think since I am but for the other side)…..crazie r and crazier.

SallyT : But, I guess it shows that we still have an injustice when it comes to those in prison.

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib…right you are.

KQµårk 死神 : We have to disagree on this argument AdLib. A guy who would take what he thought was a suicide with the intent of killing citizens is a terrorist in my book. Thankfully he never hooked up with another terrorist.

SallyT : Okay, this is off of subjects but did any of you see that PBS show about how slavery really didn’t end after the war? They still used them as slave labor but how was that they put the blacks in prisons and used them as prison labor. If too many died, they just threw more blacks in prison. We have a terrible past in many sections of our history.

AdLib : Murph – The Suffolk Poll, which I remember from 2008 is a very unreliable poll, came out with that outlier. No way, as you say, all other polls favor Warren and once the GE campaign is on and the debates take place, she will mop the floor with him…especially after his support for the anti-BC Blunt bill!

AdLib : KQ – It’s just a matter of percentages to me A certain number of these people are actual threats but are 100% of them or would they be without being enabled by a group of sympathetic plants? Just statistically speaking, some would likely have to be enabled that would have otherwise just been disgruntled.

SallyT : GOOD!

MurphTheSurf3 : Sally…five polls taken in the same period. 4 of 5 show her ahead. Outlier I suspect

KQµårk 死神 : I actually got it snail mail AdLib.

SallyT : AdLib, KQ, and Murph, did you guys see the recent poll that had Brown ahead of Warren. That upsets me! Hope it is wrong!

KQµårk 死神 : I know this AdLib but it’s just like a person who solicited murder. They can always call it entrapment but at some point they decided to take that next step to take action.

AdLib : KQ – Haven’t read that email yet, what did it say?

AdLib : Murph – Very interesting model. Sure hope they’re right!

AdLib : KQ – Wanting to harm the US and actually taking action are two very different things. One is legal, one isn’t. If law enforcement acted in a way to enable him and he otherwise wouldn’t have been, that is entrapment. I don’t know either way if they did but they have been arresting some people who were very incompetent and seemingly incapable of carrying out a plot.

KQµårk 死神 : No surf but today I got the pamphlet from the Obama reelection team on the paths to victory.

MurphTheSurf3 : AdLib…did you see this yahoo predictive model for an Obama win? «link»

KQµårk 死神 : This guy could have gone as far as the shoe or Times bomber for all we know.

AdLib : KQ – Yep, agreed. I always try to end my optimistic comments about Obama winning with an urging for folks to get out and fight hard. There could be $1 trillion in anti-Obama SUperPAC spending to destroy his chances and we will need to keep working hard to battle against that. If we succeed though, I can envision a landslide for Obama.

KQµårk 死神 : AdLib I disagree. It may be used to justify it but it does not mean he didn’t want harm to come to the US.

SallyT : I think if for some reason it is Santorum, I see the GOP giving up on the WH and throwing all their money behind the Senate and House to get elected.

AdLib : KQ – That’s why I described him earlier as “entrapped”. This is part of the propaganda, to justify The Patriot Act and all of the surveillance of Americans. “We caught another one!” Sure, find someone who’s disaffected then send plants in to encourage him to act out and when he does, “We caught another terroist in time!” Let’s not forget, the only reason the Underwear Bomber and the Times Square Bomber failed was due to their own incompetence, not because The Patriot Act helped stop them.

KQµårk 死神 : LOL must be getting late I meant AL.

MurphTheSurf3 : Sally T….could not be happier that Griffin, the MSNBC prez, finally and officially pulled the plug on him. Journalists, like all clubs, have a way of holding on to their on beyond their time. Larry King and Helen Thomas come to mind.

KQµårk 死神 : KQ I hope the WH is the only place that is not taking the GOP for granted. I know the winds are in the Dems direction right now but anything can happen. A blip in the economy or Israel attacking Iran could change the whole picture fast.

KQµårk 死神 : If you put yourself in their shoes what has the GOP delivered but allot of useless symbolic votes. In the long run the GOP rolled over on the omnibus and spending INCREASED the last two years. The trigger thing turned out to be a fiasco for them because of the defense cuts. They rolled without a big fight on the recent payroll tax cut and it looks like the highway bill has GOP support.

MurphTheSurf3 : AdLib…I think your read on the TP in office is sound. One of the reasons why they are having a hard time recreating campaigns for reelection. The TP base is shapeless now and demoralized. They have their anger and frustration but no one to turn to for leadership or direction having been betrayed by so many of their icons in the last year and a half.

AdLib : KQ – So true. I can hardly believe it and the WH must be giddy. We are inches away from the Repubs having Santorum as their Presidential nominee and he is flatly unelectable. It’s like having a blowout in the 2nd quarter of a footbal game and the other team hasn’t a chance of ever catching up. Rarely happens for Dems, the Repubs got it with beating Mondale and Dukakis…might it be our turn finally?

SallyT : Hey, what do you guys think about Buchannan being run off from MSNBC?

KQµårk 死神 : On the flip side I saw an article from the loony left that the guy in who the FBI stung in this new terrorist plot was framed like all the other terrorist suspects the Feds caught lately.

SallyT : I can’t believe they will keep this BC as an issue. Good for us but a stupid issue.

AdLib : Murph – I think the most discouraging thing for the Baggers…was winning in 2010 then being forced to see that they can’t do anything they want to do except make the nation hate them for blackmailing them. Then came the defeats against Obama and the Baggers are demoralized. Bury their candidate as the GOP Elite will try and they will be good as dead.

SallyT : AdLib, LOL your square peg!

KQµårk 死神 : Not to mention it’s an issue that drives Independents away from the GOP.

KQµårk 死神 : AdLib it’s just the kind of issue to bring the Dem coalition together.

AdLib : Night Chris! Have a great holiday weekend!

AdLib : Night Kes! Take care!

KQµårk 死神 : AdLib it’s all about MI now. If Santorum wins I think the odds go 50-50 between him and Romney.

SallyT : Chris, nite nite!

MurphTheSurf3 : Chris….my point is that the TP is no longer a group…it is lots and lots of folks milling around unwilling to listen to anyone, even their so called leaders…thus they can be sources of chaos but not of organized chaos…so they no longer have clearly defined issues.

AdLib : Chris – They will of course look for that one magic bullet of an issue that they think will bring Obama and the Dems down but as of now, no such issue exists (now that the economy and employment are improving). So, as with the BC issue, they will grab for anything and “wish” it into becoming that magic bullet. That’s why I think they’re locked into the BC issue…they NEED it to be the winning wedge issue they need and will force that square peg into the round hole as hard as they can (maybe not the best metaphor when discussing BC).

KQµårk 死神 : TC y’all.

SallyT : Goodnight, Kes, my friend. You have a great weekend, too.

ChrisR266 : I’m out as well, friends.

ChrisR266 : Good night, Kes. Enjoy the weekend.

kesmarn : Going on 1 a.m. here in corn country, dear friends. I’m afraid I’m going to have to depart. Have a great President’s Day weekend all!

KQµårk 死神 : Yup that’s the way it will play out AdLib.

AdLib : Chris and Murph – In the end, I do agree that it’s unlikely the GOP Elite will go to war with Baggers at the convention but I wouldn’t bet against them throwing lots of money and promises around to buy off Baggers and Paulites to get their way. And everyone has their price.

ChrisR266 : Murph: p.s. It is clear that birth control isn’t the chaos they were looking for…

ChrisR266 : Murph: What chaos could they create in the nation/economy to allow them to think that they could broker a candidate who could also legitimately win a general?

MurphTheSurf3 : AdLib…you are correct….a brokered convention would be a 24/7 cable news civil war….blood everywhere….th ey will settle on SOMEONE, ANYONE just to get it done and work to hold on to the House, expand in the Senate and keep their state by state strategy alive. I hope their presidential nightmares poison the whole well

ChrisR266 : AdLib and Kes: Both of you are on to something. From my perspective, the GOP has a Charlie Foxtrot going on. And, at this point, I think they would agree with that assessment (They’ve probably muttered it a few times). But AdLib: They’d have to be awfully damned sure they were going to win the general to do that at the convention, and I don’t think they feel that way at all. Even they can’t pull off a sting like that one.

AdLib : Sally, I’m familiar with that little known history about the Mormon religion, thanks for detailing it!

SallyT : Murph, I like her, too, but I have Gone With the Wind on.

MurphTheSurf3 : SIDENOTE…I have Jennifer Granholm on from Current TV…getting to like her a lot.

KQµårk 死神 : Good point Sally.

SallyT : KQ, that is why they are still in a lot of business that are Ponzi’s like AmWay.

AdLib : Chris – I haven’t been thinking of it from that angle…the idea of a brokered convention crowning someone other than the majority vote-getter seemed far fetched but would a GOP Elite that’s willing to rig caucuses in its own primary…be averse to rigging the nom at the convention? It would be difficult though, risking civil war with Paulites and Baggers…but they’re so mercenary, I don’t know that I’d put it past them.

KQµårk 死神 : Exactly Sally he started the religion as part of his Ponzi schemes.

kesmarn : Chris, the one thing that worries me somewhat is that the religious right in these parts has relatively recently decided that Santorum is the Anointed One. These people really vote. I’m just not exactly sure how many of them there are out there.

SallyT : Smith started that religion as a means to hide his search for gold. He deceived too many people in the east and was run out. He went to the midwest and did the same. He was killed in Missouri. There the church split. They went on to Utah where no one was and because the nation was about to begin a Civil War, they went unnoticed. They built their own empire and their own rules. Anyone trying to come in to settle were run off or even killed. They dressed up as indians and killed a whole wagon train and took their children and livestock. Killed everyone else.

KQµårk 死神 : They just announced today that Caterpillar is building a new plant and hiring 1,400 workers in GA. Remember GOP govs need to be reelected this year too.

MurphTheSurf3 : Kes…LDS has 14.5 members in 58 countries with 55,000 missionaries. Fortunately the faith does not seem to attract mass conversion but they are working at it. AND they are very rich exerting a lot of influence well beyond their numbers

KQµårk 死神 : Chris I don’t think businesses can hold back anymore. They are bursting with cash.

AdLib : So do you think that if Santorum wins and the GOP Elite knows he will lose big to Obama, possibly causing big losses in Congress as well, they will just let him become the candidate without trying to replace him at the convention with at least Romney?

ChrisR266 : OK, agreed: so is it all beyond hope for the GOPTEA? Or, can they maybe win if business decides it can hold off making profits for 18 more months and crashes the economy again?

ChrisR266 : And, I must add, that Mormonism will never move beyond the marginalized status it occupies in social thought and political efficacy right now. It is not compatible with mainstream thought, and it makes no gestures to even be considered compatible.

KQµårk 死神 : Exactly Chris but now the hate is like screaming individuals not a cohesive movement which is much different.

AdLib : Chris – You’re right, the GOP Elite control the infrastructure of the party but the Baggers, like the Moral Majority, are the core supporters who vote so despite everything else, if you want to win elections, you have to dance to their music, as we’ve seen all the Repub candidates do. So de facto, I think it’s fair to say they’re running the show even though the GOP Elite has the copyright.

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad….you are spot on regarding LDS….there are three more more moderate groups but they are tiny and have virtually no influence over the mainstream

KQµårk 死神 : I know the took a rightward shift but Mormonism never took a leftward shift ever.

ChrisR266 : AND, the TEA anger was (and still is) predicated on the fact that someone who is not like them is occupying the Whitehouse.

KQµårk 死神 : The TPM looks at the GOPTEA House and calls them sellouts now ever since they passed the 2012 Omnibus bill. They are calling the highway bill the ‘Highway bailout’ WTF.

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad and Kes….Islam has SOME reform elements and communities but in much of the world its members hold to a very conservative, rigid and fundamental form….this was changing worldwide in the 50’s, 60’s and 70’s as it became an expression of a post colonial world BUT radical militarization took hold in Asia, Africa, and then spread into Europe. The U.S. has had a taste of this. I refer you to the link I left before. «link»

AdLib : Murph – Your point is well taken about many places in the world where Muslims are locked into a narrow ideology, absolutely. In more developed parts of the world though, there is more variance though. I don’t see that as the case with Mormons, they are pretty homogenized ethnically and politically.

ChrisR266 : Murph: I agree, the TEA part is DOA. But, the GOP part still needs to hang onto them if they have a snowball’s chance in hell of pulling this off in November (short of violating the law to do it).

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib….I agree with your assessment of the TP crowd’s heart and soul, but they do not have the backing and organization that made them a real force in 2009 and 2010…all that remains is for them be a source of sour grapes and chaotic demands…can they produce anything?

ChrisR266 : AdLib: I agree with you, for the most part, especially about the Onward Christian Soldiers part. But, the TEA did not take over the GOP apparachick, so to speak. They never wormed their way into the power elite, and the GOP infrastructure is still controlled by them.

AdLib : Murph – As Kes points out, unlike Mormonism which is far more rigid and uncompromisingly conservative, the centuries that Islam has been around has allowed there to be communities all across the political spectrum, from conservative to liberal. The same can’t be said of Mormonism.

kesmarn : “Conservative and WTF? conservative” sums it up, KQ.

AdLib : Chris – I don’t think the GOP recovers from pandering to Baggers. I think this is a Holy Crusade now, it’s Onward Christian Soldiers, redoubling their efforts to go to war against the majority of Americans because being righteous in their cause is the most important thing. Meanwhile, the GOP look on in horror, throw their money around to stop them and rig caucuses. But they don’t run their corrupt party anymore, the “suckers” who they patronized to win in 2010 have taken over and they will revolt if the GOP Elite uses their typical dirty tricks and heavy handedness to force one of their own on the Baggers.

MurphTheSurf3 : KQ…here in the U.S…..yes but in much of the world it is frozen in time.

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib….I got your point but, not to be too harsh about it, both Islam and LDS, are often described as prefab faiths lacking in some of the organic elements you identify

KQµårk 死神 : Surf Romney singlehandedly ended the TPM.

kesmarn : It (Islam) seems to have the full spectrum of liberal to conservative like other mainstream religions, too. Mormonism seems to be less elastic– more rigid.

MurphTheSurf3 : The TP was very strong in my neck of the woods in 2009 and 2010. Filled halls with people. Not any more. Events are launched and do not fly. I am on two TP mailing lists (under another moniker) and the websites are ghost towns. Donations are flat and falling. There is no focus to the energy. I expect a bloodbath when TPers come up for reelection

ChrisR266 : Murph: I have the feeling like 99% of the women in the country are saying “bring this chit to me, come on, bring it. I will take care of this chit.”

KQµårk 死神 : Surf Islam may have been championed by one man but now it’s really an ancient religion that has changed over time. I just not as ‘personal’ a religion as Mormonism and Scientology are now in that regard.

kesmarn : What a shame, Murph. On the MN recruitment. Al-Shabab is a bad lot.

AdLib : Murph – I was shorthanding to say that all religions bring people together originally for political reasons. It began with tribes then grew but always with political purpose.

ChrisR266 : Murph: it is my special gift.

KQµårk 死神 : I agree Chris even if polls show Romney and Santorum are even against Obama now. But I think what is more important is that Romney’s electability argument is not valid withing the GOP.

MurphTheSurf3 : Chris….speakin g of radicalize Islam, you bring up the GOPTEA..good connection….

ChrisR266 : Ad, Murph and KQ: I’m still wondering how the GOPTEA is going to salvage this fiasco. Santorum cannot and will not win a general. He will not. Palin cannot save the day, she will be rejected in a general as well. No one will vote for a Bush. Christie would be crazzzy to subject himself to this. What’s left?

KQµårk 死神 : Like Khirad and I were discussing there are few brakes that the Mormon religion puts on the acclimation of wealth aka the greed is good new religion.

MurphTheSurf3 : AdLib….the Arabian peninsula was not just tribal, it was the center of a very vibrant urban culture as well (five major cities). Muhammad (or those who used him) took elements of animist faith, tribal polytheism, proverbial life tenets grabbed the Jewish monotheistic Yahweh (a god of war who was tribal by nature) and launched a full grown faith…..They also froze the faith by declaring that the Quaran was immutable because there was only one prophet…..shad es of the LDS

AdLib : Well, they just entrapped a foreign Muslim who wanted to blow himself up at The Capitol so the recruiting is continuing.

ChrisR266 : Funk: Yeah, stinks how the Prez is getting no support. You and yours have a great weekend, ok? I’m still admiring ya.

KQµårk 死神 : Exactly AdLib that’s why they are breed more conservatives than any religion. FFS they did not even accept AA until 1978.

SallyT : Good night, Funk! Be watching for you later!

kesmarn : Are they American Muslims going to the ME, Murph? I haven’t had a chance to read about this phenom.

AdLib : Bye Funk, great to see you! Have a wonderful weekend!

AdLib : Murph – Good point about Muhammad and the political agenda. However, what religion didn’t have political agendas behind it? Back then it was all about having a tribe bigger than others so you could defend yours and take over others. Many religions fell and the ones existing today are the ones that prevailed.

KQµårk 死神 : I would agree with you too on Islam but there is some cult of personality to it as well.

MurphTheSurf3 : kes…good, but the concern about islamic fundamentalism is very strong. In Minneapolis/St.P aul the disappearance of many young men recruited into Islamic militias has become epidemic. My friend is part of a group looking to address this.

kesmarn : G’night funk! $1000 x a bazillion people sounds like good fundraising!

AdLib : KQ – your point is well taken, Mormonism and Scientology are very young religions which have been thrust quickly into becoming big before going through centuries of revision and softening. They don’t have the benefit of refining themselves over time and have to stick to their dogma wholly or undermine themselves. As they say, the cake is now baked on both.

funksands : I gotta go too. BTW the Prez was in town today. I had lunch about a block away from where he was having a fundraiser. $1000 a head with a line stretching around the block. Guess there’s just no enthusiasm for this guy.

MurphTheSurf3 : funk…I think the reform movements take place where the environment encourages this but also among highly educated and modern persons, like my friend the doctor. Thus the U.S. is a hothouse for this.

KQµårk 死神 : Hey Sabreen have a happy magic underwear weekend.

kesmarn : Murph, this community has been here nearly 100 years. They’re really amazing folks.

SallyT : Sabreen, you go to bed in your PJ’s or your underwear and have a good sleep. See you later!

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib….recall too that Muhammad or Mahomet or M’madet fashioned a religion which had a political purpose, the unification of the Arab peoples via war- the jihad with the reward of a very sensual paradise to motivate them.

AdLib : Night Sabreen!

KQµårk 死神 : I was thinking about Islam too but even that has had centuries to develop even though it’s based on one man there are several interpretations. Even Mormonism has a few interpretations now

kesmarn : G’night, Sabreen!

funksands : Night Sabreen!

funksands : Murph, do you think that is because the US naturally gives them the space to do so, or is it something else?

AdLib : Murph, it’s not really the same with Muslims. Their religion was built directly on Christianity so it did have the benefit of that as a socially shaped religion. Mormonism turns Christianity on its head. I do agree though, it is like a stone in a river being smoothed out as it tumbles along over time, that is what happens with religions. The stuff that sticks out is otherwise smoothed out…though in a religion a single person creates, it doesn’t have that benefit and is cult like in the sense that a living person is the centerpiece, not the holly one who has ascended.

KQµårk 死神 : surf I was gonna say the other things Mormonism and Scientology have in common are they are relatively new which adds to their mystique.

SallyT : AdLib, that wife stuff started after he started getting more power and it lead to more and more. That is why the church broke after his death. Those not wanting to marry numerous times stayed and those horny went with Brigham Young. Young had 55 wives!

kesmarn : funk, and yet PBO is crushing both Romney and Santorum in Ohio. Hooray.

Sabreen60 : I did read about the “magic underwear” which is politically incorrect and the star/planet Kolob. So with that….I am going to say Good Night and please have a great week!!!

MurphTheSurf3 : kes…one of my doctors is a Muslim leader in our community (and he is also a friend). He says that a reformation of Muslim belief is happening in the U.S. – something which actually goes back to a period of scholarly review of the Koran that began in the 50’s and was cut off by radical political movements in the 80’s. So….modern Islam, adapted Islam may be happening but there is a powerful counterforce working against it in much of the world

funksands : Kes, have you seen how bad Santorum is crushing Romney in Ohio? Wow!!

funksands : Murph

SallyT : I meant the Book was originally written…..duh!

SallyT : Right, AdLib! The built was originally written as a fairy tale. There you go!

kesmarn : I have to say that the Muslim community around here is really very functional, open minded and community service oriented.

funksands : Or something like that

AdLib : Sally – And the greed of Smith who would steal and want as many wives as he wanted, was of course part of the religion he fabricated.

funksands : Murph / Ad your making my brain hurt.

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib….you know that your description of Mormon origins is also true for Islam. Many comparative religion scholars have pointed out that lacking a community in which a religion grows organically, the tendency toward asocial patterns is great.

SallyT : And, Joseph Smith stole the book from another man and built a religion for his own purposes around it.

KQµårk 死神 : AdLib we are of the same mind on that for sure.

kesmarn : Right, Chris. Incredibly corrupt.

AdLib : Murph – There are wonderful and rotten people who belong to every religion. What I think is most telling is how the worst in people is justified by them using their religious dogma. Mormonism is so idiosyncratic because, like Scientology and unlike other religions, it was conceived by one man. Thus, the failings of that man become embedded in the religion. So the greed that is subtly part of the Mormon religion and comes from its founder, sure looks to have corrupted Romney.

KQµårk 死神 : I hate to say I agree with Roberts for once. If a jurist cannot be impartial they should not be on the SCOTUS. I even think if Thomas recuses Kagan should too. Maybe I’m just hoping against hope that the court will be apolitical for once.

ChrisR266 : Kes: He OUGHT to be damned well angry, WITH HIMSELF. He sold his soul for that seat, and he brought absolutely nothing to it. Nothing. Hollow man, incarnate.

ChrisR266 : Murph: Applause for the Elliot reference, it is apt.

kesmarn : On some level, I think Thomas himself knows that too, Chris, and it makes him very angry.

MurphTheSurf3 : TS Elliot’s the Hollow Man, dedicated to Mitt R, with a bit of editing. “This is the way His world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.”

ChrisR266 : AdLib: Thomas is, I think it is safe to say, the least respected and most inconsequential justice on the court in 100 years. A waste.

KQµårk 死神 : That’s the point though surf about people who adhere to a culture like LDS. They could be bad people underneath but peer pressure prevents them from letting off that steam. It’s the Clockwork Orange syndrome. Are they acting good because they want to or are forced to.

SallyT : Funk, that is true!

AdLib : Sabreen, I doubt that Thomas will recuse himself, He is a liar and dishonorable. Anita Hill’s charges were true and though we didn’t hear about it at the time, there were a number of corroborating witnesses about Thomas’ sexist acts that weren’t allowed to testify at his hearing and forced it to be a “he said-she said” when it was really a “he said-they said”. So no, he will never do the right thing, he is despicable as is his wife. And don’t forget he lied for years on his disclosure forms about his wife being paid by RW groups!

kesmarn : Very interesting way to put it, funk, and it rings true.

ChrisR266 : KQ: The guy has no compass, I humbly submit. No compass at all.

KQµårk 死神 : Good point Chris. Huntsman flip flopped a bunch too.

funksands : I think what we are seeing is the behavior of a man on the edge of losing something he feels he is entitled to.

KQµårk 死神 : Surf it could be an internal conflict but I think it’s more a matter of the true nature of Mitt coming out. I’m harsh I’m sure but he reminds me of one of my uncles allot. He’s just so uncomfortable in his own skin because there is something wrong underneath he does not want people to see.

kesmarn : I wonder if Mittens is flummoxed because people in his tiny little circle have always admired his wealth and how he got it, and now the greater public hates him for exactly the same things.

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib…agree with your LDS observations…. but I have known a number and on a personal level they are among the most scrupulous folks I have ever known. To lie in front of one’s family is among the greatest disgraces. Check out any Romney victory speech in this campaign….ther e you are.

ChrisR266 : Murph and KQ: I know this is going to sound prejudicial, and it probably is, but I can’t recall, in my half-century plus on the planet, a Mormon politician of prominence who stood any identifiable ground for what one would consider a solid period of time.

SallyT : And, AdLib, the Mormon’s believe the more money you have here, the more you will get in the hereafter.

funksands : Ad, I know a lot of mormons who are perfectly comfortable lying. Means to a more virtuous end.

MurphTheSurf3 : Sabreen…if Thomas recuses himself he will be seen as admitting that his ties to the far right and his wife payment by them is wrong…NO WAY

AdLib : Murph, this isn’t meant as an indictment of Mormons in general but their religion is full of contradictions. Theywere officially racist and anti-Semetic, they baptize dead people against their will…yet greatly value respect and honesty?

SallyT : Romney’s Mormon beliefs aren’t bothering him. If he was in a room full of rich corporate rapist, the guy could carry the room! He can’t talk to people that he can’t relate to.

funksands : How interesting would it be to see Romney have a breakdown? He is acting a bit erratic.

ChrisR266 : Kes: Correct.

MurphTheSurf3 : KQ….yes he does not connect naturally or easily. That too is true but he really was a different person in the past. I think the psych has a point. He is a rigid guy by nature and his role as the flipflopper in chief is snapping him.

Sabreen60 : Don’t know if anyone asked, but do you think Thomas will recuse himself re ACA?

KQµårk 死神 : Agreed Chris. No argument with you at all. You are a better man than I if you can stay more civil.

kesmarn : Chris, i think you meant Cheney doesn’t deserve anything as wonderful as a N’Orleans style funeral, right? Not that he didn’t deserve some righteous anger.

AdLib : Murph – Another good observation though Romney doesn’t and never has in his career, exhibited anything resembling a conscience. I do think he acts like a fish out of water, having to play a role he isn’t well rehearsed in and having to go on stage like that. He isn’t a RW loon but he has to play one and lie. I think he’s okay about lying, hell he was a hedge fund exec, but I think he’s nervous because he thinks people are seeing through his act…and he’s right.

ChrisR266 : Funk: MBB? Really? Bwaaaahahaha.

ChrisR266 : KQ: About this we are agreed. MoFo’s they are. They’re fucking with everybody’s lives.

MurphTheSurf3 : Sally T…as easy as the LDS are to mock the fact is that their personal conduct is very tightly regulated and honest is preached from womb to tomb on matters of personal truth….

KQµårk 死神 : Surf Romney has a serious empathy problem. That really really bothers me that he cannot connect with people. Did you see his latest weirdness with the whole ‘the trees are the right height’ speech?

KQµårk 死神 : Chris I’m harsh but these guys have seriously fucked with my life more than I will ever mess with them.

MurphTheSurf3 : A WORD ABOUT ROMNEY….say a psychologist on local TV here who says that Mitt’s complete lack of comfort in his own body, in his own space is NEW….she has done a study of his run for office in 2008 and as governor……HE WAS MUCH MORE AT HOME THEN..Why…Her point is that he is lying about almost everything and his Mormon sensibilities are plaguing him.

ChrisR266 : Funk: Aw, you know me so well! I’m blubbering right through the tissues.

funksands : Yeah Murph, Roberts has already weighed with his views. “Oh yeah, they are all fine. End of story”

AdLib : Scalia and Kennedy are 75, Thomas is only 63, Ginsburg is 78 and Breyer is 73. So, Ginsburg will retire in the next 4 years, maybe Kennedy and Breyer but unless he gets ill, we’ll have to pry the SCOTUS from Scalia’s cold dead hands.

kesmarn : I wonder if someone’s gonna have to physically unplug that artificial heart to get it to stop firing….

KQµårk 死神 : Kes that’s the spirit. But then again the firebaggers could mess up a Dick Cheney funeral.

funksands : Chris, you ol’ softy

kesmarn : Oh when the dicks go marchin’ in….”

MurphTheSurf3 : Supremes can be impeached, but it takes an act of God to do it. So, since they are not governed by federal bench ethics, they are supposed to be self policing with the Chief Justice in the Lead…Good luck

KQµårk 死神 : There is nothing worse than a person who hates who they are. They are the most dangerous people on the planet.

KQµårk 死神 : No when Dick Cheney goes I’m going all out on a New Orleans type celebration for his funeral.

kesmarn : Certainly one of the most corrupt, KQ.

SallyT : Thomas should be thrown off.

funksands : KQ, 100% agreement.

AdLib : Chris – You’re right and Thomas is relatively young, he will be around far longer than many think. So, the siiner we can get a moderate or Progressive majority, the sooner he becomes moot.

KQµårk 死神 : To me Thomas is worse than Scalia. Actually probably the worst jurist on the SCOTUS in decades.

AdLib : KQ – That’s a good way to put it.

kesmarn : If Scalia got Alzheimer’s would anybody notice?

ChrisR266 : AdLib: And, the other problem is that no one is going to be able to pry Thomas off that court until they can get Scalia off the court.

KQµårk 死神 : Put it this way AdLib I won’t cry at his funeral.

AdLib : Chris – I know you’re right and I don’t wish ill health for anyone…but in Scalia’s case I could make an exception.

kesmarn : Murph, I hope those recess appointments are made by the dozen if the GOPers don’t come around.

ChrisR266 : AdLib and Funk: I’d be all for an illegal atheist. We could use one on that court.

SallyT : If Scalia goes, Thomas won’t know how to vote.

KQµårk 死神 : Scalia rarely votes to take away power from government.

AdLib : Funk – Or he could appoint an illegal immigrant who’s an atheist for the SCOTUS.

ChrisR266 : I saw this too, Murph. About damned time.

funksands : I think Scalia may already be dead. Who could tell the difference between Zombie Scalia and the regular version?

KQµårk 死神 : I think Scalia is going to surprise everyone on the ACA law.

MurphTheSurf3 : Did you all catch Reid’s threat on the floor of the Senate today? He says that if the GOP does not start confirming Obama nominees to which they have NO objections, he is going to ask Obama to recess appoint ALL of them in one fell swoop……Woooo oHoooooo

SallyT : Oh, Adlib, I bet tht would be the shortest ruling in history.

KQµårk 死神 : Sally women should outnumber men to represent society more correctly.

kesmarn : Mitt’s dog would be better than Scalia.

ChrisR266 : AdLib: They will have to drag Scalia’s big portly arse out of there. He will never go of his own volition.

AdLib : Sally – Wonder how a female majority on the SCOTUS would rule on contraception?

funksands : Obama needs to nominate a gay, muslim, woman to the Court. Any of those out there?

SallyT : KQ, that would be a hoot is the women out numbered the men on the Sup Crt

AdLib : KQ – I’ll take anyone, man or woman, to replace Scalia if he would only retire!

AdLib : Sally – One or two of the Good Four on the SCOTUS may retire and I sure hope Scalia ages out somehow but there will likely be appointments to the SCOTUS in the next 4 years and for that alone, having bama in the WH is critical.

ChrisR266 : Evening, Kes! Hope you are well and happy.

KQµårk 死神 : Yup that is part of my thought processes too Sally. How about another woman, especially if Ginsburg leaves?

kesmarn : Hey, Chris! Talking about what a second Obama term might look like.

ChrisR266 : Hi All: I tried to read to catch up but gave up. Someone get me up to speed! Hope you are all well, too.

KQµårk 死神 : Surf not sure about MM but all indications is that he’s moving left on same sex marriage. Not to say he can do much more on the fed level than to end DOMA though.

kesmarn : One of his most powerful moves in a good direction has been somewhat under the radar I think. And that is enforcement in areas like food safety, Medicare fraud, banking ethics. Ooooh the RW hates him for all that!

SallyT : KQ, and to get more liberal Supreme Court Judges!

AdLib : KQ – Yes, saw that. We would only have a few hundred nuclear missiles and everyone knows that having enough to destroy the world only a couple of times is a show of weakness!

KQµårk 死神 : I think the DEA is fighting for their existence even now, like getting in last licks before they have to change.

KQµårk 死神 : I mean the number one reason he needs to be elected and the Dems have to take back the House is to hold onto the gains and make more obviously.

AdLib : KQ – Right with you. A second term Obama, educated about dealing with the GOP and how to rally the public, who doesn’t need to worry about being a one termer as the first AA President, and with a Dem Congress, I think it could be FDR’s second term all over again!

MurphTheSurf3 : KQ….I do not see him acting FOR either gay marriage or medical marijuana, but I expect him NOT ACT against them which is how he back doors a lot of what he promotes things he does not have the power to fight (since both are state issues) So no defense of DOMA, tell the DEA to lay low

KQµårk 死神 : Oh has anyone seen the shit fit Republicans are having when Obama said he wants to reduce the nuclear arsenal. I saw some right winger claim this was conclusive evidence that Obama was the anti-Christ because he wanted to start the end times. WOW I never thought Jesus loved nukes so much.

SallyT : Kes, I know. He justs wants her for the comedy of it and I might like the laughs of her at a debate with Obama!

kesmarn : And if we have a Dem House and Senate– look out!

SallyT : KQ, I have always said that Obama in second term was going to be a whole lot different. He no longer had to worry about getting elected anymore and he can go for the things he wants and to hell with the GOP.

kesmarn : Wow, Sal,just to see Maher in church I would kinda like it to be Palin then.

AdLib : Murph – That makes a lot of sense. I can’t see him continuing to finance Newt after Super Tuesday…except to try and undermine Santorum on behalf of Romney and the GOP Elite. But the voters will be abandoning Newt anyway so the money won’t change a thing.

KQµårk 死神 : IDK about most of you but one of the biggest reason I want to see Obama get reelected is so we can see what I think is the real Obama. I think he moves left on same sex marriage and legalizing medical marijuana which are the biggest pet peeves I have with him now.

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib and IA and ME have already blown up in their faces (and FL will when they have to give half the delegates to Newt)

SallyT : Palin! Kes, Maher was praying to God tonight on his show for it to be her. He said that if it was her he would start going to church again.

AdLib : Murph – Good points but expecting Repubs to play by their own rules is overly generous. Look how they rigged the caucuses in IA and ME, they will cheat anyway they can. I doubt a brokered convention that rejects Santorum and ROmney will happen but if it did, it would finally blow up the GOP into tiny pieces. The Paulites and Baggers at war with the GOP Elite…oh mama, would I love for that to happen!

kesmarn : Some people are still making noises about a last minute Palin run, but I think that is mostly Palin herself dropping hints.

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib…but I think eddelson wants him competing in Mich and that is part of the deal…another 5 mil for his Georgia contest so he can have a big night….but then withdrawal from the field

KQµårk 死神 : Meth is how I got here. jk jk I don’t even drink that much anymore.

SallyT : Murph, although I don’t think it could happen, I also think that this year is so strange and so much fighting and no one really liking anyone in particular, well, it just could happen.

kesmarn : I like funks idea of prolonging the contest, though.

funksands : KQ, live a little. Think of it as a substitute for trying meth.

MurphTheSurf3 : Sally…I think it is 5 now and 5 later.

KQµårk 死神 : If I was doing Operation Hilarity I would chose Santorum because I don’t think Newt could win now.

kesmarn : Yes, Sabreen — when it was Hilary and Barack.

funksands : Murph, maybe, but I think any of these 4 guys would be crazy to drop out now considering all of the wild swings in the last 6 months.

kesmarn : Would it lower your heart rate to vote absentee?

AdLib : Murph – But Newt is cooked everywhere but in the South so though he may win there, he will lose hugely elsewhere.

Sabreen60 : Didn’t Rush tell his audience to vote in open primaries to cause chaos?

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib…the GOP lacks the means to run a brokered convention without it turning into a riot….Paul’s people are going to have a whole bunch of delegates and there will be die hard Newt and Santorum people….they have to end this according to their roadmap even if it means losing at the top.

KQµårk 死神 : I don’t know if I could take the stress of voting for the GOP.

SallyT : Murph, I thought he was giving him another 10m

AdLib : Sally, you beat me to it!

kesmarn : KQ…don’t say that!

SallyT : I agree Funk.

AdLib : So if a “severely” damaged Romney or Santorum wins the nom, anyone here think the GOP might pick someone else at their convention?

MurphTheSurf3 : Sally….Newt’s sugardaddy is pouring another 5 million into his campaign…my guess is the guy is really a Romney backer and he wants to draw votes from Santy

KQµårk 死神 : Though I will find it hard to vote GOP even as a strategic vote. I might just throw up and what happens if I die before the GE that will be my last vote. ICK!

funksands : Sally no. Any brokered white knight will have a month to raise enough money and put together enough ground troops to fight Obama? Not gonna happen.

KQµårk 死神 : Yipee!

KQµårk 死神 : funk agreed once Santorum is fully vetted if he gets to the general it will be a landslide. It think at this point unless not much changed Romney is a virtual landslide too.

SallyT : So if Santorum wins again do you think it is going to end up at the conventions?

MurphTheSurf3 : KQ….GA….open primary.

funksands : All I have to do is sign a pledge that “I consider myself a Republican and that I won’t vote in another caucus this election cycle”. Seems simple.

KQµårk 死神 : I’ll have to check if GA is an open primary because my GE votes are futile down here.

kesmarn : I think I’d go for Newt, too, funk.

AdLib : Funk – My “vote” is for voting for Santorum. He absolutely can’t win indies or a GE.

MurphTheSurf3 : funk, I fake voted in Mo. in the beauty contest and now I have the GOP calling me for money, and volunteer time as I am known as a good community organizer….so monopoly money and I am all in for Newt.

funksands : Santorum v. Obama would be Goldwater v. Johnson all over again, so YES

funksands : KQ, I am really really really going to enjoy it. I think I am going to advocate for Newt. Anything to extend the race.

AdLib : Are we agreed that Santorum winning the nom would be fantastic?

AdLib : Sabreen – You and I and everyone here will likely have that enjoyable experience next Jan.

KQµårk 死神 : What kills me about Santorum and Romney is they have not stated that they will not let their religion rule the country like JFK had to. It is nuts the the GOP decries ‘secular government’. That’s what we are suppose to be.

SallyT : Funk, there you go!

Sabreen60 : Hi Sally! Good night Cher!

kesmarn : Nancy will give Boehner something to cry about.

MurphTheSurf3 : I am back….any thoughts on Christie’s veto of the NJ Gay Marriage Bill…2/3 overturn not possible….refe rundum has yet to work anywhere.

kesmarn : See you later, Cher!

AdLib : Cher – Great! Say hi to hubby for me!

Sabreen60 : AdLib – Please let me live to see Nancy smack Boehner with the gavel.

AdLib : Hey Sally!

Chernynkaya : OK, Just got that call to pick up hubby. Have fun and maybe I’ll be back in time to see you later.

AdLib : You missed my earlier conversation with KQ. Here’s an advance video of the Repub Convention this year: «link»

KQµårk 死神 : Hey Sally nice to CYA.

kesmarn : Hey, Sally!

funksands : Sally. There you are.

SallyT : Good Evening All!

kesmarn : funk, I think you captured their “logic” perfectly.

KQµårk 死神 : I don’t take it seriously. It’s just another example of how terrible this version of the GOP is.

AdLib : Sabreen – Oh, we will take out these weasels but we’ll do it in Nov. Imagine how Boehner will cry when he has to hand the gavel back to Nancy!

kesmarn : Sabreen, the GOP are straight out of a 1950s horror movie.

Chernynkaya : Serously, calling Dr. Goebbels!

KQµårk 死神 : Another great development on the LGBT front. The DOJ will no longer defend anti-same sex couple rights in court for the military.

AdLib : KQ – You can’t take such charges seriously. Repubs care about black people? That’s why they hate the one who dared win the WH? That’s why they attack black people and want their kids cleaning toilets at schools. Sometimes, when a charge is too outrageous, trying to argue against it on merits gives it more weight than it deserves (I just did what I’m saying we shouldn’t do!).

funksands : Please it makes perfect sense: Liberals and Democrats want to black women to abort their babies so their will be more people to collect welfare and vote for Democrats. Understand?

Sabreen60 : Kes, et al – It’s been quite a week. The Prez has had some wins. I told my husband it’s good thing that I’m an “old foxy broad”, ’cause if I were young, I would camp out in front of Congress and do something terrible to the mofos who are trying to take away women’s rights.

KQµårk 死神 : Not yet Cher. But you are not the first person I heard that said they had tech problems. I’m sure they will iron it out.

KQµårk 死神 : Kes it’s dirty politics at it’s worse.

Chernynkaya : Have you seen the new version of Attack Watch the Obama team has put out? It looks fabulous but I had trouble logging on.

KQµårk 死神 : It’s just a matter of demographics because African Americans get less healthcare they have higher pregnancy rates among other factors such.

kesmarn : KQ, do they ever ask themselves what the Dem party would stand to gain by killing black babies?

AdLib : The Funk is in da house!

Chernynkaya : KQ, that’s like the trifecta of ugly.

AdLib : KQ – It may have been the same poll I saw too, which showed Obama winning women and Hispanics by bigger margins than 2008. The AA vote is nearly 100%, the gay vote is a cinch and moderates will have nowhere else to turn. He will win…as long as we get out there and fight against the billions in SuperPAC money that will try to bury him with lies.

funksands : Hello Cher, Kes

KQµårk 死神 : The thing that makes me sickest about the attacks on BC is how some right wingers are trying to make it a racial issue on the left that we want to kill black babies. That is seriously fucked up.

kesmarn : Hey, funk!

kesmarn : Hey, Sabreen! This has been a good week for our Prez!

Chernynkaya : Hey, Funk!

funksands : Hello all.

Sabreen60 : Hi Kes!

kesmarn : They are wild women and they never have a dinner without wine and beer for all. And yes, AdLib, they are cool with birth control.

KQµårk 死神 : Agreed Adlib and even though the pole I saw where 1-5 Republicans are considering voting for Obama, the 9% he won last time is a landslide based on past elections.

AdLib : Kes – Birth control for everyone!

Chernynkaya : Sounds like fun, kes!

kesmarn : Hey, AdLib and gang! What’s on the menu tonight?

AdLib : Hey Kes! Welcome!!!

kesmarn : Cher, no they’re members of the order and associates of the order that started the Mercy hospitals in the area. Not what you might think, though…very lefty, funny and feminist.

KQµårk 死神 : Yup we got to keep herding those cats Kes.

AdLib : Loyal Republicans seem to be the greedy and the emotionally maladjusted. I know that there are moderate Repubs out there in the rank and file, many in denile and just looking away from the insanity to pretend it’s not going on. Peopls are blondly loyal to political parties in general and these deniers will help make it closer than it should be but I still predict a 4% – 6% win for Obama, the latter would be a landslide in modern day Presidential elections.

KQµårk 死神 : They you are you little lurker.

Chernynkaya : Kes are those the nurses you work with?

KQµårk 死神 : When I did a rudimentary analysis of European parties they have parties like the GOP in Europe but most of them are not main stream. That’s the scary part of the GOP and our two party system.

kesmarn : Okay, KQ! Just got back from the monthly Mercy blowout. Those wimmen are crazy.

Chernynkaya : Hi SAbreen!

Chernynkaya : Yep, KQ. I know we can look back historically ans see what happens to populations when economically threatened. And also, change of any kind is scary to many. But somehow, living through it is extremely disturbing.

KQµårk 死神 : Kes come out and play yeah.

AdLib : Hey Sabreen! Nice to see you!

KQµårk 死神 : Hiya sabreen great to see you.

Sabreen60 : Hello good people!

AdLib : I saw and tweeted Freiss’ “aspirin” bit as soon as he made it. But part of that interview was just as bad, when he said that Santorum’s social views don’t matter to voters. He’s running almost solely now on social views that are repubnant and his supporter says, “No one cares about social issues.”

KQµårk 死神 : Cher agreed it is scary.

KQµårk 死神 : Because in one way or another whether it’s denial or hypocrisy the GOP is a total fraud now. It is basically a contrarian party to whatever the president and Dems want.

Chernynkaya : Yes, but that is really a scary prospect, especially with this batch. These are a whole different breed than any repubs in my lifetime.

KQµårk 死神 : That’s why part of my twitter profile is. ‘The GOP is no longer a political party. It’s a personality disorder’ It really is true when you think about it not hyperbole.

AdLib : Cher – It’s hard to realize it but there are so many people out there who don’t follow politics or the news at all, middle class and poor alike. There are meny racists, many sheep who will always vote as their parents did no matter what. When it comes down to it, maybe 40% of the country will vote Repub no matter what, maybe 45% will vote Dem. So, no matter how superior the Dem candidate is, the best they could do is win by maybe 6% – 8%.

Chernynkaya : I understand being a fiscal conservative, and I even can understand being somewhat socially conservative, even tho I’m not either. But I cannot understand how so many are insane. It’s like a mass psychosis.

KQµårk 死神 : The only thing I don’t like about Silver’s blog now is it’s tied to the NYTs.

KQµårk 死神 : Yup just staying away from the mega blogs even DailyKOS. About the biggest one we have is ThinkProgress.

KQµårk 死神 : Exactly AdLib Friess was on LO last night and could not list a valid policy he favored with Santorum. It was all BS he’s American and religious stuff. The have ZERO plans for America but repeal what Obama did and further the same failed Reagan plans.

Chernynkaya : Indeed. They really boxed themselves into an untenable corner with their blind hatred.

AdLib : KQ – That would be a great addition, please do add Nate and any others you think are solid ones.

Chernynkaya : AL, I feel much better. Not to be a downer, but I can’t help but think the polls should be Obama 99-1. I just can’t bear it that it could even be close. I know. All that matters is the win, still, it upsets me people would even consider these alternatives.

AdLib : The GOP has been investing itself in a philosophy of nihlism and BS that making the wealthy wealthier is the only solution. They aren’t in a position to do what would have to be done when running for President and control of Congress…have a vision or plans on how to make things better for Americans. They’re just not programmed now to be able to do that. The whole party’s existence is dependent on doom and gloom and destroying the economy.

KQµårk 死神 : Yeah Sulfolk is rated very poorly by Nate Silver. You may have seen the blogs I added to the blog roll AdLib. I was thinking of adding Nate Silver’s fivethirtyeight for the elections as well.

AdLib : Here’s the link to RCP, only one poll with Brown ahead of Warren and it’s Suffolk which is unreliable.

KQµårk 死神 : It wasn’t just that when my cancer came our chances were almost zero and with both our health problems it’s really for the best.

Chernynkaya : I sincerely think they have no idea where the country is actually. Here’s something I came across today you might want to glance at later–kinda explains why they have no clue. «link»

AdLib : KQ – Sorry to hear that, pal!

KQµårk 死神 : I think she was just a little nervous but the story was powerful.

KQµårk 死神 : Exactly AdLib.

Chernynkaya : WOW KQ–That’s terrible! In that case let me retract my statement. I just thought her delivery was so-so, not her testimony.

AdLib : Let’s face it, the Issa-McCarthy hearing was a total failure, all people were talking about was how fraudulent it was and how men are trying to shut out women so they can take their rights away. Issa too did a favor for Dems.

KQµårk 死神 : It really touched me because that’s pretty much what happened to my wife and one reason we never had kids.

Chernynkaya : AL, I can try to find it. Later I’ll check DP.

KQµårk 死神 : Romney is all the losing candidates Dole, Kerry, McCain and even Dukakis all wrapped up in one.

Chernynkaya : I saw it. She should have been allowed of course. To be honest, I saw her on Ed and thought she was OK but not the best testimony I’d ever seen. A little overwrought.

KQµårk 死神 : Did anyone see the video of that woman who was going to testify in the Issa hearing but was denied?

Chernynkaya : I know, right? I mean the country has gone to shit with the Fox Effect.

KQµårk 死神 : I tend to agree with you AdLib it makes no sense. My only fear is that MA voters are fickle.

AdLib : KQ – Romney will be remembered as the definitive lying and flip flopping candidate, he has no competition. And recall how Kerry was accused of being a flip flopper for changing just ONE position.

Chernynkaya : I thought so, AL, but there was a more rpeutable one a day ago having them tied, & one where he;s ahead by 4. WTF?

KQµårk 死神 : Exactly Cher and that’s why we can’t stop our advocacy for all Dems. The alternative is just not acceptable.

AdLib : Cher – That poll is an outlier, give it no credence.

Chernynkaya : Lat me just add that I too think it looks like a rout for Obama but I just can’t say that yet. I mean Scott Brown is leading Warren by 9 pts!

AdLib : It is quaint, Cher. One lie was an outrage then, an unending waterfall of lies from Romney still allows him to win the nom. Of course, it’s the GOP and being found to be a liar is actually a boon to one’s campaign.

AdLib : Hey Cher! And I second KQ, Daily Planet has been on fire all week, great work!

Chernynkaya : Why thankee, KQ.

AdLib : There’s no real comparison. Hillary did get dirty by using Rev Wright and hedging on whether she thought Obama was a Christian but it was her lie about being shot at on the tarmac that crushed her. Romney on the other hand is a chain collision of lies, one linked to the next and no one is buying any of them! It’s kind of funny!

KQµårk 死神 : Hey Cher, great Planet updates this week.

KQµårk 死神 : People who say this will make the GOP candidate stronger are just wrong, because this is not a case where people don’t know much about them, but Santorum will be vetted more for sure.

Chernynkaya : Hiya guys! I’m just popping in waiting for hubby to call for me to pick him up at the airport.

KQµårk 死神 : Romney has ZERO case for his candidacy at this point and Santorum still lacks vision besides the culture wars.

KQµårk 死神 : Actually looking back Hillary ran a 100X cleaner campaign than Romney even if compared to Obama it was negative.

AdLib : I agree that Obama should not be ahead of both in polls at this point. Right now, Romney and Santorum should be doing better than ever, getting so much attention, debates, interviews, etc. and should be getting support from the many who are struggling in this economy. Yet…Obama is leading them now! I think that means he could win by a very big margin in Nov and have a Dem sweep on his coattails.

KQµårk 死神 : Absolutely AdLib there is very little to compare about the two now save for they both began with the same stupid strategy of inevitability and were the establishment candidates.

KQµårk 死神 : I think Obama would easily beat both now. But I think the electablility argument is gone for Romney even versus Santorum.

AdLib : Hillary had only a little in common with Romney, she was the Establishment candidate who was out of touch with real people, as he is. She did lie quite a bit in her campaign and made some low blows but it destroyed her chances in the end. Romney simply seems not to have any other program he can use than the one he’s using. He is what he is.

KQµårk 死神 : Seriously damaged. I saw he’s got a -20 favorable in one poll. I don’t remember any candidate who is serious having a number like that. McCain was like +10 before he lost last time and never went negative.

AdLib : And Romney is so profoundly damaged, there is no recovering from all of it now. And when Romney gets through carpet bombing Santorum, Santorum will be permanently wounded. Love it!

AdLib : What strategy? Actually, Romney has had only one strategy, step back and allow others to implode. That worked well at the beginning but now it doesn’t. He used that strategy because I think his campaign knows, he is a very poor campaigner.

KQµårk 死神 : Yup it’s the cap gains tax they are worried about the most now.

AdLib : She got a slice of the $300m but most went to the investors. But she surely got tens of millions…and Obama wants her taxed and not paying 15% on her cap gains. So he must be defeated.

KQµårk 死神 : Yup it’s all about MI and Santorum is all in on that. That idiot Romney stepped in it again when he decried the bailouts. I just don’t get this guy and his strategy.

KQµårk 死神 : She’s in the 0.01% by now closer to Romney.

AdLib : KQ – I have been saying that there is a path for Santorum though Romney is the likely nom but now, I’d say that however MI goes could be how the nom goes and Santorum could win.

KQµårk 死神 : BINGO, you got it AdLib.

AdLib : So all she cares about is getting rid of Obama? Of course, I get it now! Obama will raise HER taxes now that she is in the 1% so of course she wants a Repub in the WH!!!

KQµårk 死神 : So do you think Santorum is for real, beating Romney? I think he’s got much better a chance than Newt did.

KQµårk 死神 : Exactly AdLib and like we are saying women noticed.

KQµårk 死神 : Obviously like the rest of the GOP she ignores what right wing politics has done for 30 years.

AdLib : Yep, though reminiscent of the men-only panel for Issa’s charade on the issue.

KQµårk 死神 : I know and almost a MILLION job turnaround since then is nothing to sneeze at.

KQµårk 死神 : Oh I agree AdLib that’s just a references point and remember back then their were ZERO female Senators so the optics were terrible.

AdLib : KQ – That witch is tens of millions of dollars richer than she was in 2008!

AdLib : It’s worse than 1992, the Repubs are proposing laws in red states now that mimic the Blunt bill. And they will win in some of those states.

KQµårk 死神 : She has gone full on GOP talking points. She even said Obama loses the argument that we are not better off now than in 2008. WTF?! we were losing over 750K jobs a month in 2008.

KQµårk 死神 : Absolutely AdLib if this does not do that nothing will. Many women are seeing this like it’s 1992 with the whole Clarence Thomas debacle.

AdLib : So she’s still fronting for Newt?

KQµårk 死神 : Aryanna was on LO last night and was suppose to talk about the ‘War on Women’ but she started going into the RW talking points that the economy is not getting better.

AdLib : It just seems that such an attack on women will snap them out of their lockstep support of Republicans.

KQµårk 死神 : To vote I mean.

KQµårk 死神 : As Cher warned we have to reach brainwashed young woman who are influenced by people like Aryanna.

KQµårk 死神 : I tweeted the GOP is going to implant wireless microscopes in women’s uterus’ to monitor if they conceive 24/7.

AdLib : Yep and the Planned Parenthood stuff…how can they possibly hope to wih in Nov after alienating and trying to legally dominate all women?

KQµårk 死神 : Then again since the personhood stuff this is part of that.