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Boy Scouts is different than Cub Scouts. An issue in one program probably isn't going to be an issue. For example, homosexuality can be an issue in Boy Scouts but is unlikely to be an issue among Cub Scouts ---at least among boys.

But as long as you mention it, I might favor a shorter Boy Scout program that has as it's main aim achieving First Class and then moves boys on to Venturing.

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I remember seeing someone online before about Lion Cubs I think it was? Need to look it back up, I know it was for Kindergarten age kids (not sure if it was an American program or elsewhere.) At this point, I'm glad it starts out in first grade but I know a lot of people who wish it started sooner. Our pack has a huge drop out rate as the kids get older (the biggest being from Webelos/AOL to Boy Scout.) Not sure if that's common everywhere but for now I'll just be happy to see mine make it through the next few years without wanting to sport/activity hop like so many kids here do.

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My youngest is the same way, anxious, due to his older brother and he got into it due to his friends in class joining. And agreed completely on the little ones. One at a time at home for me is daunting. 15 or 20- forget about it. I am anxious to see how the lion cubs pan out in the coming years. If it ever reaches here in the boonies my youngest will probably be too old but I'd still like to see how they manage it.

Lion's was actually around back in the 50's. (my dad was one) Tigers didn't start until the 80's, after the Lion's program was discontinued. They seem to just be recyling the name and putting it into a younger age group. That being said, if it's designed well... it should be nice to have a younger program around.

I noticed that too Sqyire on KDD's link. Very cool that they're bringing it back, even if its a different age group. Do y'all know if they've ever had a group for scouts that young before? (Just curious.)

I believe cubs does get a little long. The problem is there is to much "school" work involved and not enough fun. It also gets hard for den leaders to come up with the supplies and tools to do some of the activities. The How To book is hopelessly outdated. There are only so many birdhouse kits you can build and in the more northern states you get stuck inside for most of the program year. I did the wolf secret code elective last week and it was a HUGE hit. I never would have guessed. Shows you how much I know. My old council in a smaller city had TONS of lockins at museums and such. Those went over big. St. Louis unfortunately has none of that stuff. Our yards were bigger and we did lots of backyard campouts to change things up. Honestly in my opinion the best thing to do at the kindergarten age is to hit the learning to read hard and heavy. Introducing a second language while their brain is still receptive is also a big one. Leaf rubbings can wait a year.

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Yeah, when we started this 2 years ago as Tiger Den leaders we tried to follow online lesson plans etc and it was a lot like the kids had to do more schoolwork instead of having fun. After we got the hang of what we were suppose to be doing and teaching the kids we worked hard to make the lessons into games so the kids had fun and still learned what we wanted them to learn. We also devote at least 15-20 minutes of our den meetings to pure games and fun to make sure the kids are excited to come to their cub scout meeting (our meetings are an hour long).

But not every cub scout leader has time to do that sort of thinking and planning. There should be a guide to doing cub scout meetings that meet the requirements for rank that are all fun and games instead of busywork or crafts. Unless its a really cool craft, most of our kids just were not that interested.

We tried to do that this past year as well. We made almost all of our activities 'fun' while teaching and asking questions along the way to try to keep them thinking. I think the Tiger achievements were pretty decent for that age group. The most 'boring' activity, I think, was the trip to the newspaper. They tried to make it fun for them and even put them in the paper for it but it just couldn't hold their attention, I admit I completely understand as I had a trip there as a senior and was equally as bored. Our plans worked well for the most part (better than I expected) and all those who stuck with it all year ranked up in good time and had time left to try to earn some of the more 'fun' awards. We didn't follow any one method, we grabbed ideas from online, each other, those in the program longer than us and the manuals. So many drilled into my head to use the 'How To' books from the scout shop but some of that was just too much for us. We live in the south in the woods (small town) and that gave us an advantage to do quite a bit of activities outside which they loved.

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I feel like Bear and Webelos have entirely too much homework-style stuff. I make a real effort to make every single Den meeting have at least one part that is really fun, funny, or exciting. That's what they will remember... and we have as many as weather allows, outside. It's hard sometimes though. I agree that the various help books that are available are outdated... so is the Bear or (Wolf?) handbook, for instance where they are supposed to sing to the tune of "Good Night, Ladies"!?!