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Re: Off Season News, Rumors, and Trades, etc. 2013

He obviously has a different opinion about his worth than you. He got paid 5.5 mil this past year, and with the season he had this past year 7 mil is not unreasonable. I said b4 he'd not be looking for MLE money as it's a decrease in pay.

Re: Off Season News, Rumors, and Trades, etc. 2013

Just because you don't acknowledge his points, do not make them less valid. The assist to scoring numbers are quite eye popping. The shooting % on post moves is also telling. Again, whether you acknowledge it or not, does not matter. Not to mention, Gerald Wallace is horrible offensively now. You clearly haven't watched him much lately. Not average, not good, he's horrible offensively. Literally only 7 PPG on 39% shooting despite playing 31 MPG.

As for your argument about his "domination" of the Heat. Well, he played them two times last season and averaged:

14.5 PPG, 7 RPG, 1.5 APG, .568%, .5 steals, 2 blocks, 1 TO

Small sample size, but lets not mistake Brook Lopez for Shaq any time soon.

It's not eye popping at all when you realize the different sorts of offenses the two teams run. I have had to listen to Nuntius say we don't need a real point guard a hundred times. That George Hill is just fine because of the system we run not needing a more legit point man, then he gets to use that same argument in reverse talking about how nice it is to be utilizing an elite point guard distributing the ball. He doesn't get to have it both ways. Either we run a system that isn't about excellent distribution by a great guard, in which case it's by design that we don't get a ton of assisted buckets so that's a pointless comment, or we need a better point guard than George Hill -- which is a statement Nuntius will never commit to. It's easy to come into conversations and not understand there larger scope and think someone is being rude, but Nuntius makes it a point to go completely out of context to try and find obscure stats that "prove" his point, when the reality is if you start with the position of "the Pacers are great and their players do no wrong and have no weaknesses," you can find evidence of that in some number, somewhere. That isn't how stats are supposed to be used though. You don't start with a conclusion and look for evidence that agrees with you. Not if you are honest, anyway.

Re: Off Season News, Rumors, and Trades, etc. 2013

Either we run a system that isn't about excellent distribution by a great guard, in which case it's by design that we don't get a ton of assisted buckets so that's a pointless comment, or we need a better point guard than George Hill

No, he's trying to normalize the comparison between two players when their stats are being gained in two completely different systems.

I don't see anything there as saying how much better Roy would be in the Nets' system, just that Roy can obviously play in EITHER system while it is by no means obvious that Lopez can.

In all honesty, I find the Lopez side of the argument seems to be affected far more by the "He plays for a team NOT the Pacers, therefore he is better" than the Hibbert side of the argument is affected by the "He plays for the Pacers, therefore he is better" - other than the obvious point of which team got farther in the playoffs...

BillS

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

The Following User Says Thank You to BillS For This Useful Post:

Re: Off Season News, Rumors, and Trades, etc. 2013

So Marcus Camby doesn't want to go back to Toronto, wants to end his career on a contender, so they're trying to flip him. I have no disillusions about Camby's corpse being a useful player at this point, but he's owed 4.3 mil this coming year and 4.1 the year after that, but the 2nd year is only guaranteed for 1 million. They have a ton of wings, but think we could flip Gerald Green for him?

Re: Off Season News, Rumors, and Trades, etc. 2013

So Marcus Camby doesn't want to go back to Toronto, wants to end his career on a contender, so they're trying to flip him. I have no disillusions about Camby's corpse being a useful player at this point, but he's owed 4.3 mil this coming year and 4.1 the year after that, but the 2nd year is only guaranteed for 1 million. They have a ton of wings, but think we could flip Gerald Green for him?

Re: Off Season News, Rumors, and Trades, etc. 2013

So Marcus Camby doesn't want to go back to Toronto, wants to end his career on a contender, so they're trying to flip him. I have no disillusions about Camby's corpse being a useful player at this point, but he's owed 4.3 mil this coming year and 4.1 the year after that, but the 2nd year is only guaranteed for 1 million. They have a ton of wings, but think we could flip Gerald Green for him?

Interesting, but at this point I don't think you pay another team to take Green. Seriously, if the table was turned would you want to trade for Green? In all honesty, if the Pacers truly had the opportunity to tade Green with the #23 pick for Jimmer, they should never have thought twice about doing the deal. Then if had to have S Hill, trade up in the 2nd round to get him. Green is an albatross with no end in sight.

Re: Off Season News, Rumors, and Trades, etc. 2013

Interesting, but at this point I don't think you pay another team to take Green. Seriously, if the table was turned would you want to trade for Green? In all honesty, if the Pacers truly had the opportunity to tade Green with the #23 pick for Jimmer, they should never have thought twice about doing the deal. Then if had to have S Hill, trade up in the 2nd round to get him. Green is an albatross with no end in sight.

Oh come on guys!

The guy makes 3.5 million and you would think we were paying him Joe Johnson type money or if you want a better comparison Gerald Wallace.

Re: Off Season News, Rumors, and Trades, etc. 2013

In all honesty, I find the Lopez side of the argument seems to be affected far more by the "He plays for a team NOT the Pacers, therefore he is better" than the Hibbert side of the argument is affected by the "He plays for the Pacers, therefore he is better" - other than the obvious point of which team got farther in the playoffs...

If that's what you are reading than it's simply a product of woeful reading comprehension. No one has called Lopez better than Hibbert. A few people have said its a wash more or less, and most people have said Hibbert is a better overall player. Even I have said that. The -only- negative comparison in regard to Hibbert is that Lopez is better at putting the ball in the bucket, something he does more often, and at a higher percentage, while being the number 1 guy in a better offense. If you can't follow that, I don't know what to tell you, it can't be written any more simply.

Re: Off Season News, Rumors, and Trades, etc. 2013

Interesting, but at this point I don't think you pay another team to take Green. Seriously, if the table was turned would you want to trade for Green? In all honesty, if the Pacers truly had the opportunity to tade Green with the #23 pick for Jimmer, they should never have thought twice about doing the deal. Then if had to have S Hill, trade up in the 2nd round to get him. Green is an albatross with no end in sight.

Bit of an exaggeration I'd say. $3.5 million dollars a year is less than what Hansbrough made last year. And the end is in sight, it's 2015 (at worst).

Re: Off Season News, Rumors, and Trades, etc. 2013

Also discounting Gerald Wallace's offensive game is foolish. He took a smaller role because he had excellent options ahead of him in Lopez and Williams, but he is not a scrub by any measure. Dude has scored 15 ppg or more in 8, EIGHT seasons. EIGHT seasons of 15+ ppg, guy has no offense. Right. What a joke of a comment, you are making it harder for me to take you seriously when you state things that show you have no idea what you are talking about.

Gerald Wallace used to be a good offensive player. But he isn't anymore. 7.7 PPG on 39.7% shooting makes him an offensive liability. If you are not biased it's easy to see that his offensive game has waned to the point that he's a liability on that end similarly to Artest in the 10-11 and 11-12 seasons.

You successfully drilled exactly 0 holes. Excellent work. Brook Lopez got to play Chicago in the playoffs, one of the toughest interior defenses in the league, and STILL out produced Hibbert's vaunted Miami series... a team with exactly 0 interior defense. Lopez would average 30 a game in a Miami series. (though the Nets would still lose).

If Lopez were on our team he would be the number 1 option. Hibbert is on our team, he is the number 4 option. No GM or coach in the league is more scared of Hibbert's offensive game relative to Lopez's. No coach is shaking in his boots at the thought of Hibbert dropping 40 on them. His career high is 30... Lopez has gone over 30 fifteen plus times. I'm done with this...you have no argument and homers gonna home.

The question isn't who is a better player, it's who's better on offense. If Hibbert can be consistent he is the better overall player, but there is absolutely no argument for him being the better OFFENSIVE player. Bring a better argument next time.

Lopez wouldn't be the number 1 option on our team. Paul George would still be the number 1 option on our team and chances are that David West would be the number 2 option due to his experience.

Lopez does score on a higher volume than Hibbert. I never claimed that he doesn't. But does scoring in a higher volume makes one player a better OFFENSIVE player?

Who can create his own shot the most? Who can create shots for others the most?

The answer in both of those questions is Hibbert. That's what the stats (basketball reference) prove.

Hibbert has lower usage throughout his career (22.5% versus 25%) but assists in a much higher rate (10.9% vs 8.5%). And as I noticed in my previous shots Hibbert creates his own baskets more often than Lopez. In other words, Hibbert does not need someone else to create his shots for him. He can do it himself.

We saw the value that a big that can create his own shot has against the New York Knicks. During the season, several posters wished that we had Tyson Chandler instead of Roy Hibbert because Tyson scored a lot more efficiently, pulled down double digit boards and played "equal" defense with Roy. I kept saying that Hibbert is way more valuable because he can create his own shot but most people didn't care and kept wishing for Chandler. Hey, I remember that I was arguing with you about it as well (although you didn't wish for Chandler per se)

What happened in the IND - NYK series? Tyson Chandler got exposed badly by Hibbert. Tyson averaged 6.2 PPG on 53.6% shooting and 6 RPG. Every starting Pacer except George Hill outrebounded him in the series. Tyson couldn't keep up with Hibbert offensively, defensively or on the boards.

Why did this happen? Because Chandler's scoring is entirely dependant on the rest of his team. He only scores at the rim after dump off passes or alley-oops or after offensive boards. He doesn't have any other scoring methods.

Brook Lopez is no Tyson Chandler, of course. He actually has offensive skills and can score away from the basket. But still, Lopez's scoring relies on the rest of his team a lot more than Hibbert's. As I said, during the playoffs Lopez was assisted in 70.7% of his baskets. Hibbert was assisted in 50% of his baskets. That's a huge difference, my friend. Being able to get off your own shot without relying on your teammates is a huge asset for a big. Hibbert has it. Most other bigs do not have it.

Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

Re: Off Season News, Rumors, and Trades, etc. 2013

We aren't friends, Nuntius. I can't decide if you are purposefully obtuse or genuinely deluded with the dishonesty of your arguments and inability to maintain context, but I just don't value our exchanges anymore as I simply don't respect you or your opinions any longer. I'm going to put you on ignore.

I know the average BBIQ of this board has dropped a lot with the reduced contribitions from Count, JayRedd, Tbird, Chicago J, and I'm sure I'm forgetting some, but I can't believe such a simple statement as the offensively oriented all star center is a better offensive player than the defensively oriented one. I'm genuinely disheartened with the (lack of) quality on this board lately.

Hibbert has lower usage throughout his career (22.5% versus 25%) but assists in a much higher rate (10.9% vs 8.5%). And as I noticed in my previous shots Hibbert creates his own baskets more often than Lopez. In other words, Hibbert does not need someone else to create his shots for him. He can do it himself.

We saw the value that a big that can create his own shot has against the New York Knicks. During the season, several posters wished that we had Tyson Chandler instead of Roy Hibbert because Tyson scored a lot more efficiently, pulled down double digit boards and played "equal" defense with Roy. I kept saying that Hibbert is way more valuable because he can create his own shot but most people didn't care and kept wishing for Chandler. Hey, I remember that I was arguing with you about it as well (although you didn't wish for Chandler per se)

What happened in the IND - NYK series? Tyson Chandler got exposed badly by Hibbert. Tyson averaged 6.2 PPG on 53.6% shooting and 6 RPG. Every starting Pacer except George Hill outrebounded him in the series. Tyson couldn't keep up with Hibbert offensively, defensively or on the boards.

Why did this happen? Because Chandler's scoring is entirely dependant on the rest of his team. He only scores at the rim after dump off passes or alley-oops or after offensive boards. He doesn't have any other scoring methods.

Brook Lopez is no Tyson Chandler, of course. He actually has offensive skills and can score away from the basket. But still, Lopez's scoring relies on the rest of his team a lot more than Hibbert's. As I said, during the playoffs Lopez was assisted in 70.7% of his baskets. Hibbert was assisted in 50% of his baskets. That's a huge difference, my friend. Being able to get off your own shot without relying on your teammates is a huge asset for a big. Hibbert has it. Most other bigs do not have it.

Don't worry Nuntius we can be friends.

The assisted numbers remind me of the same argument that people had with liking Humphries over West. They simply didn't evaluate offensive system and the lil point of playing with an all star point guard.

I still think Brook Lopez would be a efficent player in a different system but he wouldn't be as efficient on the offensive end.

Re: Off Season News, Rumors, and Trades, etc. 2013

The guy makes 3.5 million and you would think we were paying him Joe Johnson type money or if you want a better comparison Gerald Wallace.

He is a bad but his contract isn't a albatross.

They aren't Pacers affecting what the Pacers can do where as Green is. Green's 3.5 mil hinders what you can do in re-signing players. That 3.5 mil could make a difference in being able to keep a player or what you can offer a player next year. There is nothing positive paying 3.5 mil for a towel waving end of the bench player who can't play worth a hoot.

Re: Off Season News, Rumors, and Trades, etc. 2013

We aren't friends, Nuntius. I can't decide if you are purposefully obtuse or genuinely deluded with the dishonesty of your arguments and inability to maintain context, but I just don't value our exchanges anymore as I simply don't respect you or your opinions any longer. I'm going to put you on ignore.

I know the average BBIQ of this board has dropped a lot with the reduced contribitions from Count, JayRedd, Tbird, Chicago J, and I'm sure I'm forgetting some, but I can't believe such a simple statement as the offensively oriented all star center is a better offensive player than the defensively oriented one. I'm genuinely disheartened with the (lack of) quality on this board lately.

Re: Off Season News, Rumors, and Trades, etc. 2013

They aren't Pacers affecting what the Pacers can do where as Green is. Green's 3.5 mil hinders what you can do in re-signing players. That 3.5 mil could make a difference in being able to keep a player or what you can offer a player next year. There is nothing positive paying 3.5 mil for a towel waving end of the bench player who can't play worth a hoot.

I am not saying there is anything positive about it but its not like other well run teams haven't made similar mistakes. Think of another former Net (Richard Jefferson) and the Spurs.

My objection to all crying about Green is simply that its not as bad as you would have us believe. Is it good? I don't think you could find one poster to say that it was a good signing now but its not a major mistake (yet). It does have the potential to cost us Lance but I will wait another year to decide how bad it really was in the end. Sometimes you have to chalk on up as a bad fit which is what I am doing with Green.

Put him on a run and gun team and he wouldn't be as bad of a signing IMO.

Re: Off Season News, Rumors, and Trades, etc. 2013

Bit of an exaggeration I'd say. $3.5 million dollars a year is less than what Hansbrough made last year. And the end is in sight, it's 2015 (at worst).

Yeah, maybe a bit of an over exaggeration in that it's not a Murphleavy albatross contract. I should have just said it's a poor contract that hinders in regards to how much money the Pacers have to work with. 2015 is too long to have to keep Green on the books and too far in the distance to have to wait to unload him.

Re: Off Season News, Rumors, and Trades, etc. 2013

on the Lopez-Hibbert debate, you also need to take into account that Lopez has Deron Williams creating shots for him, while Hibbert has George Hill creating shots for him, no offense to Hill, but defenses don't pay as much attention to Hill as they do Williams