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RE: [Distillers] Re: Graphene filter

Agreed, the only safe material for electrolysis to avoid anode/cathode contamination would be platinum. Even a platinum plated electrode would be very

Message 1 of 22
, Mar 21, 2013

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Agreed, the only safe material for electrolysis to avoid anode/cathode
contamination would be platinum. Even a platinum plated electrode would be
very expensive. It seems that a lot of your postings amount to nothing more
than alchemy, a theory that sounds plausible, but in practice would never
work. I thought you would have learned from the flash distillation fiasco
that you would test these theories before posting them. Just my 2 cents.

You may also want to be careful with what other compounds that may be
created with the electrical elements that come in contact with the corrosive
alcohol and hence recombined with unknown hydrocarbon materials. I
personally know that stainless materials when combined with alcohols and
electric currents can be eroded!

You're talking about electrolysis of water to remove water from alcohol? If
you haven't tried this, you should just so you know what you're dealing
with. The process is painfully slow and the product is highly explosive.
We did this in 9th grade science class.

--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, RLB <last2blast@...> wrote:
>
> Z Bob:
>
> That is way over my head. Currently, scientist can turn CO2 into
hydrocarbon by placing electrodes into a chemical solution similar to wash.
Applying electric energy to those electrodes causes the formation of
hydrocarbon. My idea is a variation of what science is doing in that area,
but my main problem is oxygen will be released. Increasing oxygen helps
yeast growth, and oxygen hinders alcohol production by yeast. It might be
possible to do this slowly as the beginning, and then crank it up later on
during fermentation. It will be an experiment to see what will happen. My
main goal will be to see if water and alcohol can be separated by breaking
water into hydrogen and oxygen. Hydrocarbon is just an added bonus.
Electric energy for this experiment is not a problem.
>
> Robert
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: tgfoitwoods zymurgybob@...
> To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2013 1:22 PM
> Subject: [Distillers] Re: Graphene filter
>
>
>
> Robert,
>
> Any idea what that equation might look like?
>
> Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits
>
>
> --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, RLB last2blast@ wrote:
> >
> > Wal:
> >
> > At a future time, one of my experiments will be to try and transform CO2
into hydrocarbon during fermentation. If that works it can be used to heat
my stills. It will be interesting to see what happens to alcohol when
hydrogen and CO2 is turned into a hydrocarbon.
> >
> >
> > Robert
>

White Bear

Even if this works and produces denatured alcohol (unsuitable for consumption), it may be a good way to produce ethanol fuel. So all may not be lost. just

Message 2 of 22
, Mar 21, 2013

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Even if this works and produces denatured alcohol (unsuitable for consumption), it may be a good way to produce ethanol fuel. So all may not be lost. just my thoughts, go for it and see what happens.

You may also want to be careful with what other compounds that may be created with the electrical elements that come in contact with the corrosive alcohol and hence recombined with unknown hydrocarbon materials. I personally know that stainless materials when combined with alcohols and electric currents can be eroded!

Robert, You're talking about electrolysis of water to remove water from alcohol? If you haven't tried this, you should just so you know what you're dealing with. The process is painfully slow and the product is highly explosive. We did this in 9th grade science class.Electrolysis of water video - youtube link I sell life insurance - ping me offline. BC --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, RLB <last2blast@...> wrote: > > Z Bob: > > That is way over my head. Currently, scientist can turn CO2 into hydrocarbon by placing electrodes into a chemical solution similar to wash. Applying electric energy to those electrodes causes the formation of hydrocarbon. My idea is a variation of what science is doing in that area, but my main problem is oxygen will
be
released. Increasing oxygen helps yeast growth, and oxygen hinders alcohol production by yeast. It might be possible to do this slowly as the beginning, and then crank it up later on during fermentation. It will be an experiment to see what will happen. My main goal will be to see if water and alcohol can be separated by breaking water into hydrogen and oxygen. Hydrocarbon is just an added bonus. Electric energy for this experiment is not a problem. > > Robert > > > > > ________________________________ > From: tgfoitwoods zymurgybob@... > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2013 1:22 PM > Subject: [Distillers] Re: Graphene filter > > > > Robert, > > Any idea what that equation might look like? > > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine
Spirits >

> > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, RLB last2blast@ wrote: > > > > Wal: > > > > At a future time, one of my experiments will be to try and transform CO2 into hydrocarbon during fermentation. If that works it can be used to heat my stills. It will be interesting to see what happens to alcohol when hydrogen and CO2 is turned into a hydrocarbon. > > > > > > Robert >

Eddie Hoskin

I have read about some very interesting advancements in the field of alternative fuels regarding the subject. Turns out they ve figured, on a lab scale, a

Message 3 of 22
, Mar 21, 2013

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I have read about some very interesting advancements in the field of alternative fuels regarding the subject. Turns out they've figured, on a lab scale, a process to convert high temperature CO2 and steam (H2O) into O2 and CH4 (methane). It involves 2-400*C temps and a very expensive (iirc, platinum) catalyst. But it is fairly efficient, and can be run off of process/solar thermal heat, so it may become plausible down the road.

But again, not really all that feasible for a home guy without a tens-of-thousands research budget. You have a much better shot piping fermentation CO2 into a greenhouse and boosting growth that way :).

That
video is somewhat similar to my basic thought, but that isn't converting
fermented CO2 into hydrocarbon. If water can be de-stabilized enough it
might be possible to separate alcohol without a still. It's just an idea
I want to test. Yes, I knew that hydrogen and oxygen are
explosive.

Robert

girlguidebiscuit

Before careful Robert, you are playing with nitrogen AND carbon AND electricity and substances suspiciously close to being amino acids. It is quite feasible,

Message 4 of 22
, Mar 21, 2013

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Before careful Robert, you are playing with nitrogen AND carbon AND electricity and substances suspiciously close to being amino acids. It is quite feasible, in fact probable, that you will invent/create/discover a NEW life form that will spring out of the bucket, infect the whole of humanity and send messages to aliens to invade, kill and destroy.

Or not.

Paul

...there is a brilliant mind out there about to unleash shattering new revelations to the contrary. Is there such a oerson amonst us?

girlguidebiscuit

In some gasification plants water/steam is injected that absorbs heat and is reformed into H2 and CO. All this technology is about 150 years old.

Message 5 of 22
, Mar 21, 2013

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In some gasification plants water/steam is injected that absorbs heat and is reformed into H2 and CO. All this technology is about 150 years old. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_gas

This is all about as far removed from distilling as my living room is from the centre of the galaxy, and is at the absurd stage.

Paul

RLB

Desross It s all about the money. There is little that we can do to change a formulaor fermentation, sothat leaves distillation. Equipment is by far the

Message 6 of 22
, Mar 21, 2013

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Desross

It's all about the money. There is little that we can do to change a formula or fermentation, so that leaves distillation. Equipment is by far the most costly, and a heat source is our second highest expense. It's a fact that we can split water into hydrogen and oxygen. It's a fact that CO2 and hydrogen can be turned into hydrocarbon. Wash contains water. and yeast produces CO2. We have almost everything we need to produce our own flammable gases to heat our still. Many distillers already use airlocks, so it would not be too difficult to connect a small compressor to a fermentation tank to collect hydrogen, oxygen, and hydrocarbon to use as heating fuel.It's all about saving money for tried and true methods. What happen to the alcohol is another matter.

Love it! I believe that others far more knowledgable and experienced in the craft of alcohol distillation than I, and probably the vast majority of distillers, would be adopting the practice of these theoretical ideas, if in fact there was a better more efficient method of producing safe alcohol based product using other than existing tried and proven practices. Having stated this, I also accept the possibility there is a brilliant mind out there about to unleash shattering new revelations to the contrary. Is there such a oerson amonst us? Otherwise, perhaps 'experiments' to prove these possibilities should be put to one side until some degree of competence, experience and success with more 'traditional' tried and true methods, is achieved.

Just my thoughts

tgfoitwoods

Robert, This is why I asked about the chemical equation for the process. For instance, here is an equation for reacting the simplest hydrocarbon, methane, with

Message 7 of 22
, Mar 22, 2013

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Robert,

This is why I asked about the chemical equation for the process. For instance, here is an equation for reacting the simplest hydrocarbon, methane, with oxygen, to yield carbon dioxide and water. This reaction is commonly called combustion.CH4 + 2O2 -> CO2 + 2H2O PLUS 891 kJ/mol energy.

Now what you propose to do is exactly that equation, but with the "yields" arrow pointing the other direction. It is implicit in almost any chemical equation that the arrow actually points both ways, depending on the conditions, and what you want to happen.

So now we get the equation that represents what you wanted;CO2 + 2H2O PLUS 891 kJ/mol energy -> CH4 + 2O2So you can do exactly what you propose, and it seems that Eddie's platinum-catalyzed process is one way to do that, but the most important thing you need to know is that you need to put exactly the same amount of energy into CO2 and H2O to get methane and water, as you get from burning that methane. That's the TANSTAAFL principle, "There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch, sometimes called the law of conservation of energy.

So there's no reason to create methane, or any other hydrocarbon that way, unless you live in a world with lots of very cheap energy and no hydrocarbons, not the world most of us live in.

What's happening here is that this discussion is changing from people who want to make and drink pleasant beverages to how to make fuel (including especially for Werner Von Braun's A4, which got renamed to the V2) and manage energy. To continue this discussion it should really be taken to one of the ethanol fuel forums, like http://forum-alcohol4fuel.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18.

Understand that for many of us, the important issue is not how to separate ethanol and water, but how to make things that taste good, whiskeys, rums, brandies, even vodkas, for some, and speculations on purifying ethanol don't help us much toward that end.

--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, RLB <last2blast@...> wrote:>> Z Bob:> > That is way over my head. Currently, scientist can turn CO2 into hydrocarbon by placing electrodes into a chemical solution similar to wash. Applying electric energy to those electrodes causes the formation of hydrocarbon. My idea is a variation of what science is doing in that area, but my main problem is oxygen will be released. Increasing oxygen helps yeast growth, and oxygen hinders alcohol production by yeast. It might be possible to do this slowly as the beginning, and then crank it up later on during fermentation. It will be an experiment to see what will happen. My main goal will be to see if water and alcohol can be separated by breaking water into hydrogen and oxygen. Hydrocarbon is just an added bonus. Electric energy for this experiment is not a problem.> > Robert> > > > > ________________________________> From: tgfoitwoods zymurgybob@...> To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2013 1:22 PM> Subject: [Distillers] Re: Graphene filter> > > > Robert,> > Any idea what that equation might look like?> > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits> > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, RLB last2blast@ wrote:> >> > Wal:> > > > At a future time, one of my experiments will be to try and transform CO2 into hydrocarbon during fermentation. If that works it can be used to heat my stills. It will be interesting to see what happens to alcohol when hydrogen and CO2 is turned into a hydrocarbon. > > > > > > Robert>

jsducote

A beautiful response... And it doesn t include the energy needed to catalyze the water/wash. That ain t free either. I ll wager that the amount of CO2 produced

Message 8 of 22
, Mar 22, 2013

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A beautiful response...

And it doesn't include the energy needed to catalyze the water/wash. That ain't free either.

I'll wager that the amount of CO2 produced (by the average home distiller's ferment) could only create enough methane to give a brief puff of flame, hardly enough to heat a cup of tea (assuming it was already warm). If your ferment was producing enough CO2 to convert into enough methane to boil 8 gallons of wash, you'd probably have suffocated by now.
-j

--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@...> wrote:
>
> So you can do exactly what you propose, and it seems that Eddie's
> platinum-catalyzed process is one way to do that, but the most important
> thing you need to know is that you need to put exactly the same amount
> of energy into CO2 and H2O to get methane and water, as you get from
> burning that methane. That's the TANSTAAFL principle, "There Ain't No
> Such Thing As A Free Lunch, sometimes called the law of conservation of
> energy.

RLB

Z Bob: Everything I do is on a shoestring budget, so I put forth an interesting idea that might help distillers of both spirits and/or bio-fuel because it s

Message 9 of 22
, Mar 22, 2013

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Z Bob:

Everything I do is on a shoestring budget, so I put forth an interesting idea that might help distillers of both spirits and/or bio-fuel because it's the same process. If someone attempts this before me, everyone wins. As for energy required for this process, it isn't a problem for me but that is outside the realm of this forum. People says everything possible has been tried when it comes to distilling spirits, but I have not seen where someone has used
this process with wash or wort. Science and technology improves, and we as distillers and future distillers should look for ways to improve our process and product. If we save $1 while producing the same product, we all win. I agree that everything has been tried with ingredients and formulas, so all that leaves for us to improve is our distillation process. Distillation involves equipment and heat source.

With that said, I will refrain from further comment on this subject until after my experiments are completed.

This is why I asked about the chemical equation for the process. For instance, here is an equation for reacting the simplest hydrocarbon, methane, with oxygen, to yield carbon dioxide and water. This reaction is commonly called combustion.CH4 + 2O2 -> CO2 + 2H2O PLUS 891 kJ/mol energy.

Now what you propose to do is exactly that equation, but with the "yields" arrow pointing the other direction. It is implicit in almost any chemical equation that the arrow actually points both ways, depending on the conditions, and what you want to happen.

So now we get the equation that represents what you wanted;CO2 + 2H2O PLUS 891 kJ/mol energy -> CH4 + 2O2So you can do exactly what you propose, and it seems that Eddie's platinum-catalyzed process is one way to do that, but the most important thing you need to know is that you need to put exactly the same amount of energy into CO2 and H2O to get
methane and water, as you get from burning that methane. That's the TANSTAAFL principle, "There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch, sometimes called the law of conservation of energy.

So there's no reason to create methane, or any other hydrocarbon that way, unless you live in a world with lots of very cheap energy and no hydrocarbons, not the world most of us live in.

What's happening here is that this discussion is changing from people who want to make and drink pleasant beverages to how to make fuel (including especially for Werner Von Braun's A4, which got renamed to the V2) and manage energy. To continue this discussion it should really be taken to one of the ethanol fuel forums, like http://forum-alcohol4fuel.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18.

Understand that for many of us, the important issue is not how to separate ethanol and water, but how to make things that taste good, whiskeys, rums, brandies, even vodkas, for some, and
speculations on purifying ethanol don't help us much toward that end.

--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, RLB <last2blast@...> wrote:>> Z Bob:> > That is way over my head. Currently, scientist can turn CO2 into hydrocarbon by placing electrodes into a chemical solution similar to wash. Applying electric energy to those electrodes causes the formation of hydrocarbon. My idea is a variation of what science is doing in that area, but my main problem is oxygen will be released. Increasing oxygen helps yeast growth, and oxygen hinders alcohol production by yeast. It might be possible to do this slowly as the beginning, and then crank it up later on during fermentation. It will be an experiment to see what
will happen. My main goal will be to see if water and alcohol can be separated by breaking water into hydrogen and oxygen. Hydrocarbon is just an added bonus. Electric energy for this experiment is not a problem.> > Robert

Becool Stayslinky

Robert, Not to be negative, but don t do the experiment. To process even a few ounces of wort will put you into the don t try this at home category. Besides,

Message 10 of 22
, Mar 22, 2013

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Robert,

Not to be negative, but don't do the experiment. To process even a few ounces of wort will put you into the "don't try this at home" category. Besides, it's already been done - ethanol gives up hydrogen easier than water which means you would be losing your intended product.

You won't replace the art of this hobby with technology, and it's not always about the money. I have thousands invested in my setup, but doubt that I consume more than a few bottles a year, yet for some reason I can't stop thinking about it.

Be cool, stay slinky, and enjoy what the hobby has to offer.

BC

--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, RLB <last2blast@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> With that said, I will refrain from further comment on this subject until after my experiments are completed.
>
> Robert
>
>
>

Harry

Not about the money, eh? Well then (bright idea) I might spend a few million & take my gear into orbit. Space is a vacuum, so I should be able to distil

Message 11 of 22
, Mar 23, 2013

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Not about the money, eh? Well then (bright idea) I might spend a few million & take my gear into orbit. Space is a vacuum, so I should be able to distil without heat energy input. Orta save a couple bucks a bottle that way, yes? Maybe even start a revolution. ;)

*Another "from the sublime to the ridiculous" offering.
Brought to you by....

Slainte!
regards Harry

*from something that is very good or very serious to something very bad or silly

--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Becool Stayslinky" <becoolstayslinky@...> wrote:
>
> Robert,
>
> Not to be negative, but don't do the experiment. To process even a few ounces of wort will put you into the "don't try this at home" category. Besides, it's already been done - ethanol gives up hydrogen easier than water which means you would be losing your intended product.
>
> You won't replace the art of this hobby with technology, and it's not always about the money. I have thousands invested in my setup, but doubt that I consume more than a few bottles a year, yet for some reason I can't stop thinking about it.
>
> Be cool, stay slinky, and enjoy what the hobby has to offer.
>
> BC
>
> --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, RLB <last2blast@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > With that said, I will refrain from further comment on this subject until after my experiments are completed.
> >
> > Robert
> >
> >
> >
>

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