GMG Classical Music Forum

The Music Room => Composing and Performing => Topic started by: Sean on August 27, 2007, 06:49:47 AM

Can you identify this music? I'm afraid I only have two scores to hand to show at present, and so below are photos of parts of three movements from different works of a set (the third might confuse a little), plus parts of four movements from one other, very different, work. Extra points for the movements as well as works...

I might take my camera to the library for next time if people seem to like this sort of thing.

Photo #1: Bach Cello suite No.2, first mov Preludium, one of the most profound and moving things he wrote. Maiksy playing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWyrxAZCOhA

Photo #2: Bach Cello suite No.4, third mov Courante.

Photo #3: Bach Cello suite No.5, end of third mov Courante and first two of the three lines of the fourth mov Sarabande- this suite possibly his greatest work with the Sarabande ‘the essence of Bach’s genius’ to quote Rostropovich and paraphrase Tortelier. It was originally for a six stringed cello so there are two lines of music, one with the relevant notes transposed for regular cello. Maisky again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWyrxAZCOhA

Photo #5: Messiaen Vingt regards sur l’enfant-Jesus mov 20, manic and monumental creativity in this finale, impossible to play fast enough without great technique. Unfortunately the first half of the video of Katsaris playing this piece seems to have disappeared but you’ll get a feel for the virtuosity: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuOUBCdw7qg

Photo #6: Messiaen Vingt regards sur l’enfant-Jesus mov 15, the end of the climactic section, releasing huge tension. The section builds up particularly from 2’30’’ with tension breaking at 2’50’’- the last line on the photo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bsvVdBJXtQ&mode=related&search=

I've just remembered the opening bars of Vingt regards mov 20 are repeated- go to 2'28'' of the Katsaris video (the first flourish has a shot of some trees or something before returning to the keyboard)- the velocity is amazing.

How about we keep this going? I'm going to upload six excerpts from musical scores. See which you can identify. If you're not sure, take your best guess but give a sentence saying why you answered that way. Some should be very simple, some a bit tricky. All are by familiar composers.

And our composer and clarinettist who used to post as diegobueno cleans up!

Gotta challenge you guys a bit more tonight... :D

And since you've all done so well, here are 8 more. Sorry about the low light in the pics, I should've used the flash. But I think they're readable. This'll probably be it for me, since it's a bit of work to take the scores down from the shelf, photograph them, crop, save, upload, and then put all the scores back on the shelf. Sigh.

Composers all are well-known, but some not as well-known as in the first set.

One question - is no 12 Nielsen? It looks like him, in scoring and other musical details but also - and this is a powerful factor here, as with the Shostakovich - in the actual printing style: this particular handwritten look reminds me of some other Nielsen scores I have, just as the fonts and layout of the Shos score told me straightaway it was him...

Anyway, because of this, crazy as it sounds, I can't go beyond thinking 'it must be Nielsen' - so tell me if I am barking up the wrong tree. ;D

One question - is no 12 Nielsen? It looks like him, in scoring and other musical details but also - and this is a powerful factor here, as with the Shostakovich - in the actual printing style: this particular handwritten look reminds me of some other Nielsen scores I have, just as the fonts and layout of the Shos score told me straightaway it was him...

Anyway, because of this, crazy as it sounds, I can't go beyond thinking 'it must be Nielsen' - so tell me if I am barking up the wrong tree. ;D

(Woof.)

It's not Nielsen. But you're not entirely cold, either geographically or alphabetically.

2) it has all the hallmarks of the Gorecki 3 last movement (thick parallel motion in the strings, low-lying quasi-recit in the soprano, with notes picked out above in harp and piano) Also it is in the right key.

2) it has all the hallmarks of the Gorecki 3 last movement (thick parallel motion in the strings, low-lying quasi-recit in the soprano, with notes picked out above in harp and piano) Also it is in the right key.

So I checked it and it looked right.

And the text is in Polish! yes, it's the Gorecki 3, near the end.

And no, Michael, Luke's guess was warmer than yours.

Luke, why not give us some items from your no doubt huge score library.

Oh, I think I know what it is. It is one of the later Pettersson symphonies. I don't remember which number, maybe 6 or 7, but I think I actually played that piece a long, long time ago. I didn't see that second page at first, but I just looked at it again and scrolled over to the right. That seems to have triggered some deeply buried (mostly bad) memories of the piece.

Oh, I think I know what it is. It is one of the later Pettersson symphonies. I don't remember which number, maybe 6 or 7, but I think I actually played that piece a long, long time ago. I didn't see that second page at first, but I just looked at it again and scrolled over to the right. That seems to have triggered some deeply buried (mostly bad) memories of the piece.

Good for you! it's from 7. I thought that endlessly repeated trombone figure would give it away.

Luke, why not give us some items from your no doubt huge score library.

I might do that later. Problem is, my scanner is broken, and as you've said, photoing, cropping etc. takes time. Also, I'd like to choose good samples as you have done - what would be the point of choosing obscure things that don't give anyone a chance: it needs to be pitched right. I will think on...

Good for you! it's from 7. I thought that endlessly repeated trombone figure would give it away.

Ah, of course - you're right, that trombone figure should have given it away (it's amazing how similar some passages in Nielsen are, actually...). I've never seen a Pettersson score ( :o ) so again I think it's interesting how the look of the print, as well as the notes themselves, made me think of something Nordic - is it a Hansen score?

As for the new ones...

18 - I thought of Verdi at first (contour of some of the melody) before I realised it was Carmen. But it's one of the bits that isn't in my score...

19 - is one of the Ligeti Etudes (Book II, L'escalier du diable).

20 - have to admit I searched for this one (googled the unusual, lengthy tempo marking), so I think I have the right answer [edit - I know I have the right answer as I just listened to a sample at Amazon!], but I don't want to spoil it for those who might know it 'properly', so I won't say here.My first thought, BTW, was Mendelssohn, but then I thought that, pre-Liszt, the tremolo is little used by real pianist-composers, more in transcriptions (which I momentarily thought this might be) and in music I tend to think of as less pianistic, so I ruled out Mendelssohn. The composer who it really is by is not a million miles from Mendelssohn, though.

21 - Stockhausen - Klavierstucke IX (again, the look of the score - Universal Edition style - is the first thing that I notice, then the notes and the language, though still all in the first glance, of course)

22 - that surprising measure of 5/8 is the clue - it's that famous 'first' of Handel's, Orlando's mad scene IIRC

Very good - I couldn't fool Luke at all, even with that Carmen excerpt.

But I think maybe I'll just pull a few more from online scores, which takes far less time and effort, and make them simpler, so lots more people can play. I think I'll have to ask Luke and Diego to sit these next ones out, so others have a fair chance.

Good for you! it's from 7. I thought that endlessly repeated trombone figure would give it away.

It wasn't actually that, though (unfortunately) that came back to me once I had figured it out. It was the c-c# leaps in the bass part which reminded me of the very unpleasant and thankless experience of playing this piece with its totally awkward (and completely ineffective) bass part. You play these leaps about 2 million times.

It wasn't actually that, though (unfortunately) that came back to me once I had figured it out. It was the c-c# leaps in the bass part which reminded me of the very unpleasant and thankless experience of playing this piece with its totally awkward (and completely ineffective) bass part. You play these leaps about 2 million times.

I know what you meant. I picked the page I did because the trombone motif is about the only thing I can ever remember from that symphony, and thought it might be similarly familiar to others.

1 - no guess yet. It is a pretty major work, btw, one of its composer's masterpieces IMO

2 - no correct guess yet

3 - Mark is correct, it is Feldman. A piece for alto flute, glockenspiel and piano...shouldn't be too hard to find the name...

4 - point to Edward, this is indeed the Khachaturian PC. The clue in my mind was the flexatone/saw carrying the melody on this page, but unfortunately its name doesn't come out clearly, so that made it harder.

5 - Yes, Larry, it's Ferneyhough. As I implied, the look of the page gives that away quite clearly I think, though some of the notation and the use of improvisation is unusual for him. A little probing and you'll have the name.

6 - And yes, Larry (again!), this is Schoenberg. The dotted lines (or the implications they carry for what sort of piece this might be) possibly give a clue as to the identity of this work.

Time for some more. Here's no 7. This one is a transitional work, but it carries many of the hallmarks of the later style - if you delve deeply you should therefore be able to identify him. There is also a clue to two features of the piece's title in the motive which is treated so exhaustively in the strings.

3 - Mark is correct, it is Feldman. A piece for alto flute, glockenspiel and piano...shouldn't be too hard to find the name...

Why Patterns

Quote

4 - point to Edward, this is indeed the Khachaturian PC. The clue in my mind was the flexatone/saw carrying the melody on this page, but unfortunately its name doesn't come out clearly, so that made it harder.

Mark - correct on the Feldman. And apologies on the Khachaturian, don't know what I was reading there!! Two points to you, and Larry is most of the way there on two more.

No 8. Like the Ferneyhough and the Feldman, I think this is one where, if you can get the composer, you are most of the way to getting the piece, as the instrumentation leaves little room for error. This is a typical score of this composer in appearance (it's also one of his finest pieces)

No 13 I won't give any clues here, except to say - a bonus point if you can name the passage/piece on which this page is modeled (or to which it refers). And that in itself could well be a clue, because if you get the model, you may get the present piece itself...

oh, i thought 9 was Lachenmann, he uses that 3/thing at the bottom.now, my only thought is it might be spectral music, but Grisey and Murail's scores don't usually look like that. My guess is Saariaho, but my second guess is Ligeti?

Greg, that is very interesting - I can see how you could be led in that direction. Actually it isn't spectralist. If you look closely you'll see that there is a clear process going on, so Ligeti wasn't a bad guess either. This composer developed a very strong and personal process technique later, though not precisely this one.

No 14 - I think the composer is pretty obvious, but the piece might be harder to get. It is one of his most famous works, though, if that helps.

No 15. The composer will do here - I think it unnecessary and frankly almost impossible to name the piece itself! But the peculiarities of the score should make the composer clear, I think. And if not that, then the printer of the manuscript paper may help.

Greg - sorry for confusion, I thought you meant my no 7 was like Lachenmann/spectralism - that's where all my stuff about processes came from. But I think you meant no 9. Also not Lachenmann, but that's a pretty good guess, I think.

Larry - that's funny, I know all mine but had to think hard about some of yours too!

No 9 isn't Scelsi, no, but note heavy italics!

No 7 seems to be a tricky one. If I was you I'd look away from the string writing, and concentrate on a modern composer who uses arpeggios so heavily... ;)

Mark - Bingo on the Tippett :) - it is a Schott actually, but perhaps somewhere along the line I have disfigured it somewhat.

'Yes' on the Nancarrow - that one at least I think is fairly straightforward. It's Study no 37 if you're interested.

No 7 isn't Italian, actually, but 'yes' also on its use of BACH. To be fair, I hinted at it somewhat when I said that there where two clues as to the piece's title in the string parts! One of them is indeed 'Bach'. Now tell, me, what animal do you think those string parts sound like when played all together.....? And you have your title (nearly)

No, no 6 isn't late Schoenberg, but a more formative piece. You are correct that it is a vocal work, though that is not evident on this page. And the Scelsi one is not no 10, which is, however, a piece known to you.... ;)

Greg, that is very interesting - I can see how you could be led in that direction. Actually it isn't spectralist. If you look closely you'll see that there is a clear process going on, so Ligeti wasn't a bad guess either. This composer developed a very strong and personal process technique later, though not precisely this one.

wow, you're really making me think here....i should just pull out a bunch of names >:Dumm...... i'll take a wild guess- Schnittke?

No 21. Like my no 13 (and no 16, for that matter), this is modeled on a particular piece, but in this case every note in this piece is taken exactly from the original and then repeated and re-sorted according to certain criteria. What is the original piece, and what is this one? And for a bonus point ( ;D) how has the composer selected which material to lift from the original? A very interesting effect is achieved here, I think, amplifying and altering the effect of the original.

17 - try to determine the nationality (there are clues), and then see what the music is doing. As far as I know there is only one well-known piece which ticks both boxes. It's a very well-known little piece.

19 - this is standard mid-19th century repertoire. The 7/4 time may be a clue to you, it may not.

The E minor piece is not American, no. It is an OUP score. Which may be a clue in itself.

I don't think mine are necessarily trickier than yours, Larry - it's just that, by definition, you know the ones you put up, and I know these ones! I had trouble with some of yours - the Carmen one was harder than it should have been, and of course I had to cheat on 'number 20'; the Stockhausen one didn't come straightaway either, and I didn't get the Pettersson even though I should have. The Carter came only because 1) 'scorrevole' is a very Carterian term and 2) there looked to be little difference between mvts 1 and 2 - and of course that structural feature is one of the 1st quartet's most noteworthy aspects (the 'breaks' come in the middle of movements rather than in between)

FWIW, there are some pieces among mine which I am sure you know, because you have either mentioned them in the past (there's one here which I know you dislike, I am afraid!) or because I know you are well-informed on the relevant composer in particular. Have you worked out which one is the Scelsi yet? It's worth bearing in mind that he thought of notes as being like comets - not as little blobs, but as leaving a trace, a vector across the page as they move in time. I think there is one of mine which suits that description well. BTW, I think I'm right that you don't think too much of Scelsi (am I?) but he isn't who I meant when I said that I know you dislike one of the pieces.

17 - try to determine the nationality (there are clues), and then see what the music is doing. As far as I know there is only one well-known piece which ticks both boxes. It's a very well-known little piece.

19 - this is standard mid-19th century repertoire. The 7/4 time may be a clue to you, it may not.

The E minor piece is not American, no. It is an OUP score. Which may be a clue in itself.

I don't think mine are necessarily trickier than yours, Larry - it's just that, by definition, you know the ones you put up, and I know these ones! I had trouble with some of yours - the Carmen one was harder than it should have been, and of course I had to cheat on 'number 20'; the Stockhausen one didn't come straightaway either, and I didn't get the Pettersson even though I should have. The Carter came only because 1) 'scorrevole' is a very Carterian term and 2) there looked to be little difference between mvts 1 and 2 - and of course that structural feature is one of the 1st quartet's most noteworthy aspects (the 'breaks' come in the middle of movements rather than in between)

Give me time, give me time.

I knew Carmen would be hard - it's such a familiar piece, but this is a part not included in most scores.

I'm just joking with you, Luke - I'm sure all yours are every bit as reasonable as mine. That 7/4 thing looks very familiar! so does #17!!!

Yes, Larry, you know the 7/4 one, I am sure, and at the very least five of the others, I am almost positive (not to imply that you can't know the others, of course, I am only going on what I know of your listening habits). Anyway, updated results...

21 looks like a Schott score, maybe from Stravinsky's neoclassic period. I was hoping it was Dumbarton Oaks, but it's not.

The 7/4 could be from Pelleas, given the pattern of exact repetition. But the German note makes me dubious.

21 is a Chester score. The clue to the composer, or at least the style, is in the method of construction, as I said. Try playing the melody line through without its repeating figures to find the source.

An interesting observation about the 7/4 - it isn't Pelleas, but this is a composer often said to be a forerunner to Debussy in some respects.

21 is a Chester score. The clue to the composer, or at least the style, is in the method of construction, as I said. Try playing the melody line through without its repeating figures to find the source.

An interesting observation about the 7/4 - it isn't Pelleas, but this is a composer often said to be a forerunner to Debussy in some respects.

I'm tempted to say Mussorgsky, but I think that's not right. It looks so familiar! I probably should just sleep on these clues and maybe something will pop into my head later tonight or tomorrow.

The Ferneyhough is not Lemma-Icon-Epigram (which is quite a bit more complicated, though still not BF at his most extreme) - in fact it isn't piano music (look a little closer...). Once you have the instrument the possible pieces are reduced to one.

Actually, the reason this piece isn't quite as complex as most other Ferneyhough pieces is partly to do with the instrument, which is another clue, I suppose.

17- at first glance, looks like a possible Bartok piece i haven't heard, but it has a slight feeling of pointillism, the second name that comes to mind is Dallapiccola, but the one piece I've heard by him isn't very pointillistic, more lyrical. Ok, here's a wild guess, Nono? is it mid-20th century or early?

This one will be really hard, let me just give you all two clues: 1) this piece is obscure, i've never heard it so i'll be impressed if you can guess just the composer, 2) the English comments might throw you off

The Ferneyhough is not Lemma-Icon-Epigram (which is quite a bit more complicated, though still not BF at his most extreme) - in fact it isn't piano music (look a little closer...). Once you have the instrument the possible pieces are reduced to one.

Actually, the reason this piece isn't quite as complex as most other Ferneyhough pieces is partly to do with the instrument, which is another clue, I suppose.

Anyway - Luke you are right on the Schumann too! When you say it looks like Schumann, do you mean it sounds like Schumann, or could you literally tell by looking at it?!

I haven't played it, though it looks like it sounds like Schumann, if you see what I mean. But I really meant it looks like him, texturally (with its roots in horn writing, for starters), plus the expression mark could only be Schumann. It is amazing how the personality of a composer's music can be stamped so clearly by just a few notes; factoring in the look of the various editions/handwritings/notations etc. (though not in this case) often makes these questions quite straightforward (though not always, I hasten to add)

Is the first one Sorabji, as I and then Mark guessed? Not just the tempo marking that Mark mentions, but also the look of the score - fistfulls of obscure chords in semiquavers, no barlines, angular l.h. and so on, all say Sorabji very strongly to me. I am still plonking for the 1st Sonata, but only because I know they have it on IMSLP!! (and if I wasn't busy I pull up the file and check it...)

The Sorabji - it is surely Sorabji! - is not the First Sonata, so I'm not sure what it is. I played through the Opus Clavicembalisticum years ago, and I don't remember this page, but that means nothing!

Manuel, I can't place yours offhand; the texture looks like early Rachmaninov (it reminds me of the Moments Musicaux for instance, though it certainly isn't one of those), and I'm sure I know it, but obviously not well enough!

I know Greg's, but I can't remember where from (and it's bugging me!); Prokofiev is a bit of a thin spot in my knowledge I must admit, at least compared to most people here, but Greg's sample reminded me of something like the PC2. However, I don't think it is any more! Back to the drawing board....

Got it! I was nearly right - it's the Prok First PC - which I should have know as I think that's my favourite Prok. PC! But I don't have the score, only the two-piano, which I've only looked at once or twice. Still should have got it eariler [kicking myself]

I particularly like that we're trying to find interesting scores with personal styles and clues aplenty. More fun than playing hardball - it would be so easy to upload impossible ones, but where would the fun be in that!

If pushed, I'd say I'd particularly expect that you know no 1 (though I may be wrong)

Well, at first I thought it might be from Lutoslawski's Livre - but I checked the score (well, gave it a casual leafing ;D) and though it does look a bit like some of the ad libitum sections it's not from there. Could it be another Lutoslawski piece? Like the 3rd Symphony (because of that trumpet line)?

(Please don't laugh at me, you can't imagine how difficult this game is for people with knowledge on my level! :o)

I don't think I do. As you said, the instrumentation probably leaves little to choose from: violins are present, and a saxophone! My knowledge of Scelsi is good enough to see that those are clues but not good enough to use them. ;D I might try though... Are there any vocal parts in this piece?

We got there! That's the one, and what a piece it is - one of his finest and most beautifully balanced works.

Interesting score, this. I have no idea why he transposes some parts (horn, for example) but not others (clarinets, for example). The one-violin-on-three-staves thing is no joke or eccentricity - it is necessary for reasons of clarity, as all strings are constantly in use on very closely adjacent notes (the violin has scordatura in this ravishing piece). He carries this notation to its limit in the 4th Quartet, written on 16 staves - one for each string!

As for these three new ones of yours, they are tricky. The first one...well, for no particular reason I'm going to chuck out the names Eotvos and Dutilleux....or maybe Lindberg (yes, it looks like his work, I think), or Saariaho. Basically, I don't know!

The second one looks like I should know, but it isn't ringing any bells right now

The handwriting in the third looks like Ligeti's, though I can't place the piece right now, which probably means it is something like San Francisco Polyphony or Melodien...... ???

As for these three new ones of yours, they are tricky. The first one...well, for no particular reason I'm going to chuck out the names Eotvos and Dutilleux....or maybe Lindberg (yes, it looks like his work, I think), or Saariaho. Basically, I don't know!

The second one looks like I should know, but it isn't ringing any bells right now

The handwriting in the third looks like Ligeti's, though I can't place the piece right now, which probably means it is something like San Francisco Polyphony or Melodien...... ???

Are the really familiar ones the hardest to get? #2 is from the second movement of La Mer.

the first one is a powerful piece, the second one a famous piece, the third is by a composer who should be a bit more well-known

You see, your italicised powerful makes me think of Kraft - that would be a very strong candidate, I'd have thought. But you said it wasn't Lindberg....

As for the second one, I am kicking myself! I knew it was French, I knew I knew it, it has the motivic unity of Debussy, and yet I didn't make the connection. Something about the look of this excerpt, and the particular printing perhaps, makes it look more 19th century here.

The third one - I know that handwriting, I'm sure of it, though if it isn't Ligeti I don't know who it is right now....I will ponder on

Are the really familiar ones the hardest to get? #2 is from the second movement of La Mer.

another one for Larry!

ok, Luke, i meant #9 was the one i was dying to find out. i'll take another guess.... uh, i really don't know. Did I say Schnittke already? hmmmmmm Arvo Part? Gorecki? Feldman? lol, ok, that's probably too many guesses

Ah, my no 9. Hmm, clues, clues, clues. Well, that guitar part at the top (acoustic, I'm afraid) is a kind of concertante solo, even though so quiet, slow and simple that I could play it. Then there are the harmonium and cimbalom, which might help. This composer has written only a few orchestral pieces and is better known for his smaller scale songs and piano pieces. One of the finest contemporary composers. This piece has had only one recording AFAIK, though a high profile one. Enough clues.

Here I come with one more. You'll see the JPG has six excerpts on it. Most if not all will be easy to get, though you of course have to identify them all. But that's not the challenge. The challenge is to identify the common thread that unites all six pieces.

No, it wasn't obvious at all, or not to me - I'm the first to admit that I know next to nothing about dance. So I must confess, I just put what I thought was a particularly unlikely pair - the Davidsbundlertanze and Tzigane, I think - into Google with the idea that as they have little obvious in common, a webpage on which their names are close together may well provide my answer. I found something about Balanchine so I put 'Webern Balanchine', 'Mendelssohn Balanchine' etc. into Google and kept getting results.

Sorry if this prosaic and possibly 'cheating' method takes away from your question and your time-consuming preparation - there was no other way I'd have got the answer, however, I assure you! At least, I expect I'd have needed a good many clues...

How do you think I got the Liszt? It looked very familiar, but then I Googled 7/4, found it, looked up the score, and bingo. I have nothing against creative research!!

I am only cross in that you deprived me of the chance to use my excellent clues. :D

LOL! And as I admitted pages ago, Google was how I found out what your mysterious 'number 20' was too (which is why I was reluctant to say what is was back then, though I hope you noticed my little clue later on - 'it isn't by Webern, but it nearly is').

LOL! And as I admitted pages ago, Google was how I found out what your mysterious 'number 20' was too (which is why I was reluctant to say what is was back then, though I hope you noticed my little clue later on - 'it isn't by Webern, but it nearly is').

And my next question is, how did Larry figure out the Villa-Lobos using only evidence Luke provided (when he thought he was being so clever in cropping out the title page)?

Well, I would hope from the clues in the music (I've tried to leave clues in all my examples, otherwise there's no fun in it, I think). In this case, two clues above all:

1) the accelerating push-pull figure, which is an obvious musical equivalent for the idea 'steam train leaving station', but which is actually pretty rare and in orchestral music is best known in Honneger's Pacific 231 and Villa Lobos' Bachianas Brasileras 2

2) the Brazillian percussion

the two taken together making the Villa Lobos the the only possible choice, I'd have thought.

I have to say that I find your collective knowledge of scores incredible, quite apart from actually being able to identify a work from one page of a score. I am in awe! 8)

Greg - my no.3 was already identified as a song by Ives - the first of the 114 song book, but no-one's guessed the right song - the first three words are a clue (think politics!)

OK - so here's some scores - they're all a bit dark, but the Great British summer which is providing the light is awful, so its not my fault! You even get to see an attractive shot of my index finger (not sure which hand).

Great thread idea by the way Sean! Do you really think that the Fifth Cello Suite is Bach's finest work? And a little thing - it was composed for scordatura tuning - the top string down from an A to a G to give a darker timbre (rather than a six stringed cello as you suggested). The sixth wuite was indeed composed for a five stringed cello, but these are so rare that it is usually played as a virtuoso piece on a four stringer.

With mine - thinking of what instrument I play probably will give you more than an inkling in a lot of cases. A few are quite easy. Don't really have that many full scores - mostly piano reductions of concerti.

Well, I would hope from the clues in the music (I've tried to leave clues in all my examples, otherwise there's no fun in it, I think). In this case, two clues above all:

1) the accelerating push-pull figure, which is an obvious musical equivalent for the idea 'steam train leaving station', but which is actually pretty rare and in orchestral music is best known in Honneger's Pacific 231 and Villa Lobos' Bachianas Brasileras 2

2) the Brazillian percussion

the two taken together making the Villa Lobos the the only possible choice, I'd have thought.

You mean you did it some other way? ;)

Of course! Actually, the image was cropped too tightly for me to read all the percussion names. And it's not a piece I know well, V-L not being on my personal hit parade. But you left the 6-digit catalog number at the bottom, and it looked like a Ricordi print. From there, simple.

Of course! Actually, the image was cropped too tightly for me to read all the percussion names. And it's not a piece I know well, V-L not being on my personal hit parade....

...nor on mine. I'm feeling slightly guilty as I know that a few of the pieces I have chosen are by composers you don't rate that highly - I imagine you finding the answer and thinking 'all that effort, for that - ugh!' But I think the point is to choose interesting-looking scores with a trail of clues to follow...

Guido, your number 4 is one of Stravinsky's children's pieces 'for the five fingers' (the little figure at the top of the page refers to the hand position required); number 8 is a piece of Piazzolla - a piece I know but whose name momentarily escapes me (I'll have it in a while, I think). I'll have to look at the others a bit more, I think.

Guido's no 7 is the opening of the Finzi Cello Concerto - should have got that one straight away. His number 10 I don't know, but I'm going to throw in the name Chausson - it looks very French for all sorts of reasons, and the 5/4 is suggestive of him, even though it's only a bar's-worth..... but I'm not aware of this piece if it is him.

no.10 - It's not Chausson, but it French as you say (French publishers all have the same look).

Oh yeah - and the markings are in french - actually I love the directions he gives (not much of a clue to say he's male!) - mettre beaucoup de pédale (dans un halo sonore) - a truly magical passage. Also the cello line at figure one - p mais tres intense

The only one I can do of these straight off is no 12, but Larry has already got it! >:( However, at least I can add emphasis - is is the Kodaly. I have this score anyway, but if I didn't, a big clue as to the identity is the obvious scordatura of the C and G strings (down to B and F#) which makes the cross-string arpeggios on this page a peroration in B major

The only one I can do of these straight off is no 12, but Larry has already got it! >:( However, at least I can add emphasis - is is the Kodaly. I have this score anyway, but if I didn't, a big clue as to the identity is the obvious scordatura of the C and G strings (down to B and F#) which makes the cross-string arpeggios on this page a peroration in B major

Correct on Dvorak SQ, Reger and Tavener - which latter leaves me with 5 unanswered of my first 22 also. Remind me which ones of yours remain, though I don't think I'll be able to do them!

EDIT - actually, not quite correct on the Tavener title.

I'll live with the Taverner. My LR21-24, 26 remain unanswered. (I think we're all getting more obscure as this goes on.)

Clues on my 5 unanswered ones, just to move this along:

2 are from operas1 is by a woman2 are by the same composer1 was greatly admired by Brahms1 is British1 is American2 are string quartets (big help there)All composer last names begin with consonantsAll composer first names begin with consonants3 composer first names have only four letters

I'll live with the Taverner. My LR21-24, 26 remain unanswered. (I think we're all getting more obscure as this goes on.)

Possibly - though I'd say at least three of my last selection are probably known by most people here, and maybe six, not including the two you got, are only slightly harder.

The Tavener - you're so close I'll let you have it ;) - is simply called In Alium. And I think your life can go on very happily if you never hear it, though it is full of sonorities such as I've never heard elsewhere.

I'll live with the Taverner. My LR21-24, 26 remain unanswered. (I think we're all getting more obscure as this goes on.)

Clues on my 5 unanswered ones, just to move this along:

2 are from operas1 is by a woman2 are by the same composer1 was greatly admired by Brahms1 is British1 is American2 are string quartets (big help there)All composer last names begin with consonantsAll composer first names begin with consonants3 composer first names have only four letters

Sorry, I didn't realise you meant this batch of yours.

Is number 24 from the Quartet by Ruth Crawford Seeger (which would fit a few of your categories!). I seem to recall that reductive-additive pattern from this piece

To me a big clue as to the identity (or at least the nationality) is the chord progression of the last bar. Nothing spectacular in itself, but in this context, to my mind anyway, it tends to point quite strongly towards a particular type of music from a particular country

To me a big clue as to the identity (or at least the nationality) is the chord progression of the last bar. Nothing spectacular in itself, but in this context, to my mind anyway, it tends to point quite strongly towards a particular type of music from a particular country

I, I+, possibly leading to VI in first inversion . . . I'm drawing a blank.

That's right - not much of a clue, I know - it could just as easily be the be the James Bond theme (though in the major mode)! But when combined with this kind of texture and melodic material, at least to my ears it's quite a specific sound, and I could probably cite you other similar instances of its use, except that that would give the game away. This theme first appears on a solo clarinet at the beginning of the movement; this is the start of its climactic restatement (it grows from here).

That's right - not much of a clue, I know - it could just as easily be the be the James Bond theme (though in the major mode)! But when combined with this kind of texture and melodic material, at least to my ears it's quite a specific sound, and I could probably cite you other similar instances of its use, except that that would give the game away. This theme first appears on a solo clarinet at the beginning of the movement; this is the start of its climactic restatement (it grows from here).

That's right - not much of a clue, I know - it could just as easily be the be the James Bond theme (though in the major mode)! But when combined with this kind of texture and melodic material, at least to my ears it's quite a specific sound, and I could probably cite you other similar instances of its use, except that that would give the game away. This theme first appears on a solo clarinet at the beginning of the movement; this is the start of its climactic restatement (it grows from here).

As in the Liebestraum by Liszt - I'm going to guess this is a Liszt tone poem I maybe don't know.

Re. your other four. I've been working on them, believe me! I don't think I'm going to get them, at least not soon. But I've got the other three of that set of seven, so I'm not doing too badly. Your clues haven't been too much help, I must admit, though I was grateful that you pointed out that two were string quartets.... :P

No, sorry. Maybe my one clue was confusing in any case - it's probably more related to my own hearing habits than to musical fact.

Try further east.

Does that mean my Bolcom guess was right or wrong?

Re. your other four. I've been working on them, believe me! I don't think I'm going to get them, at least not soon. But I've got the other three of that set of seven, so I'm not doing too badly. Your clues haven't been too much help, I must admit, though I was grateful that you pointed out that two were string quartets.... :P

Your instinct about that Tristan chord is very relevant, and once you can apply that, use my other clues to help narrow it down.

More clues:Both operas are little-known today.One opera takes place in Spain.One does not.The composer of one of the operas was not American, but in one sense you might have the impression he was American.

It's actually one of his best known pieces (look at the orchestration, btw), so it's possible that whatever catalogue you are consulting is misleading you.

I'm off to work now, but I will look at your latest clues tonight. One thought, though, without consulting anything or looking back at the examples - if one is set in Spain, and I confused one opera for Wagner, is it possible that one of your samples is Wolf? Der Corregidor is what I am thinking of. I don't know it, though, so this is only a guess.

Luke - is your no.23 the Dvorak violin concerto - end of the first movement? I haven't heard the piece in four years, and don't have a score, so this is just a guess based on the violin line, and the attacca...

I'm off to work now, but I will look at your latest clues tonight. One thought, though, without consulting anything or looking back at the examples - if one is set in Spain, and I confused one opera for Wagner, is it possible that one of your samples is Wolf? Der Corregidor is what I am thinking of. I don't know it, though, so this is only a guess.

Yes, one of the samples is the prelude to Wolf's rarely played Corregidor.

I'm going to say the Bernstein is the Chichester Psalms, a work I barely know and don't think I have a score for. What I took for "Tpt" threw me, but if it's "Tpl" for temple blocks, it'll work, and the rhythm, harmony, etc., are right for an LB work from that period.

Luke - is your no.23 the Dvorak violin concerto - end of the first movement? I haven't heard the piece in four years, and don't have a score, so this is just a guess based on the violin line, and the attacca...

I'm going to say the Bernstein is the Chichester Psalms, a work I barely know and don't think I have a score for. What I took for "Tpt" threw me, but if it's "Tpl" for temple blocks, it'll work, and the rhythm, harmony, etc., are right for an LB work from that period.

It is the Chichester Psalms, (from the opening of the last one) - but it is a trumpet - the work is scored for strings, harps, brass and percussion

Not likely we've got Mussorgsky or Cui. Now let me start thinking about Borodin and Balakirev.

Finally - 1 - Martinu's 6th symphony!!!! ;D

Got it - at last!

Should I clarify that I think the Wolf is your no 24? Because I do... ;) - that's 4 of that set of 7 found now, and with your Martinu deduction only 4 left of my original 22 also, (though the ones from last night are mostly still to be found).

Carry on thinking about Borodin and Balakirev. It shouldn't take you long now; this is one of its composer's more celebrated movements.

Yes, one of the samples is the prelude to Wolf's rarely played Corregidor.

I'm going to say the Bernstein is the Chichester Psalms, a work I barely know and don't think I have a score for. What I took for "Tpt" threw me, but if it's "Tpl" for temple blocks, it'll work, and the rhythm, harmony, etc., are right for an LB work from that period.

Actually I have a vocal score to the CP. I must hear it again today, I know I have a CD.

23 is the Wolf. 24 is Ruth Crawford Seeger. Now you can start using my other clues....

Should I clarify that I think the Wolf is your no 24? Because I do... ;) - that's 4 of that set of 7 found now, and with your Martinu deduction only 4 left of my original 22 also, (though the ones from last night are mostly still to be found).

Carry on thinking about Borodin and Balakirev. It shouldn't take you long now; this is one of its composer's more celebrated movements.

Not Borodin's 2nd, not the Steppes, not the Balakirev Islamey if orchestrated. Don't know.

ok, i've revealed the answers, 1, 6, 8, and 10 weren't guessed so i added my name.so, everyone, just tell me when you want my next batch of 10 scores (g11-g20).personally, i feel like waiting until all the other scores have been identified.

ok, i've revealed the answers, 1, 6, 8, and 10 weren't guessed so i added my name.so, everyone, just tell me when you want my next batch of 10 scores (g11-g20).personally, i feel like waiting until all the other scores have been identified.

I think we should wait. Otherwise everything gets too confusing. And I would like to capture all the images into a file as a kind of anthology.

I have that Corigliano in hard copy, and have even heard it twice live. But frankly, if I had been you, I would have quoted a passage that's more characteristic - like the slow repeated fortissimo notes at the opening, or the Albeniz tango that comes in on the offstage piano. Accompaniment patterns like the one you provided just don't give much to focus on.

I think we should wait. Otherwise everything gets too confusing. And I would like to capture all the images into a file as a kind of anthology.

I have that Corigliano in hard copy, and have even heard it twice live. But frankly, if I had been you, I would have quoted a passage that's more characteristic - like the slow repeated fortissimo notes at the opening, or the Albeniz tango that comes in on the offstage piano. Accompaniment patterns like the one you provided just don't give much to focus on.

i don't have the score, i just found the first page of the score online, i can see that it'd be pretty hard :-X

Wow! The speed at which this thread is moving along is absolutely astonishing! It's moved 5 pages ahead since I last checked in! I have to confess, though - I'm completely lost: don't which ones have been answered, how many are left to guess or where they are...

I think a good idea would be to find the ones that haven't been answered yet and put them all in one big post - so there's no need to go back and forth between pages: this would be possible because you can hotlink to attachments (show them as images hosted from the GMG site) - so there's no need to reattach the files. If you guys could list your unanswered scores, I could even make the big post myself. But right now I'm just overwhelmed with the amount of material... :o

(Luckily for everyone I'm too lazy to join in ;D - otherwise I guess I could come up with 5-7 interesting ones, though the name of the poster would be too much of a clue in all the cases ;))

I think a good idea would be to find the ones that haven't been answered yet and put them all in one big post - so there's no need to go back and forth between pages: this would be possible because you can hotlink to attachments (show them as images hosted from the GMG site) - so there's no need to reattach the files. If you guys could list your unanswered scores, I could even make the big post myself. But right now I'm just overwhelmed with the amount of material... :o

Well, as far as mine go, this is the list after Larry's recent run, with the name of the solver. I've hyperlinked each number to the relevant post:

I would happily do the same for Larry's, Guido's and Greg's ones (and any others I've forgotten) but it's quite nice making a list of who solved them, and I am less sure for these guys' questions than for those I set myself.

I right-click on the score photo and select "copy link address" (not "copy image address" as that, I think, would only show a small version of the image). Then I write my post and paste this address in between these:

[img][/img](You can type them in or get the program to type them for you by clicking above the edit window and the smileys - on the small "picture" between the small "loudspeaker" and small "Earth" images - "Insert Image". Oh, no - I was trying to put this simply but it seems incomprehensible now...)If you post a list of the unsolved ones (just the numbers), I can do with yours the same I did with Luke's.

Don't worry, Maciek, that's precisely what I've spent the last hour doing! Here are hyperlinks to all previous questions (including for completeness’ sake my own, though I already posted them three posts up), plus answers and solvers where appropriate. In the next post I will try to reproduce the images of those still unanswered, unless Maciek is desperate to...

I'm afraid, though, I've reached the limits of my guessing power without further clues.

As for the three of mine left unsolved, I'll repeat and amplify the hints:

One is by a composer already represented in my same series of 7. This composer has already been identified, and is not well known for string quartets.

One piece was quite popular at one time, a favorite of Brahms, but is rarely heard today, though a few recordings have been made.

Two of the pieces were championed by the same well-known conductor.

Though one of the pieces is from an opera, the composer is not one most associated with opera. On the other hand, one of the other composers (other than Wolf, already identified) wrote a once-popular opera little known today.

Actually all three composers wrote operas that are hardly played today.

One composer was Jewish.

One composer was not American, but you might get the impression there were some American aspects to his career.

Two of the composers contracted the same serious disease, though with different effects.

Two of the composers lived during the same highly partisan period in musical history, but one managed to stay friendly to both sides while the other was quite rabidly partisan.

Guido, is your no 14 Carter, by any chance? It looks quite a lot like him - in fact he was the first thought that came to mind, but I'd clean forgotten about his cello concerto (which I haven't heard).

Will it be completely wrong if at this messed up point I throw a couple of mine in? >:D

I know it would but, as you all know, it's difficult to resist once you have them on your computer. 0:) Luckily - I've only got five. Two of these are admittedly a bit obscure, one is half-obscure ( ;D) but very easy to guess if you've heard the piece even once. The other two are laughably easy (IMHO)... As I said before: look at who is posting these and you will easily guess all the rest. ;)

The fact that is you, and also the print style, lead me to think all are Polish. No 4, I think, is from the Szymanowski Symphonie concertante (Symph 4) - second movement. I need to look at the others a little more.

mm5 looks like Penderecki, i mean that's exactly how he writes his scores...i just opened my Oxford Dictionary of music and flipped right into Penderecki's page right when i opened the book without turning any other pages (don't know how that happened) and tried looking for a piece with just piano and timpani, but couldn't find any (i didn't think i would).

the only too composers i know with scores that may look exactly like his are Serocki and Gorecki, i'm guessing the composer is Polish (big surprise! ;D ) But i'm guessing Serocki over Gorecki- Serocki- Continuum...

(i've heard this before, and i should have a page from the score still on a CD somewhere)

Maciek, is one of yours Penderecki? I'm thinking about no 5, but have little to justify myself.

Luke, it is not Penderecki, though I can see why you thought it was him. It's probably the most obscure piece on the list. This composition was commissioned by the same man who commissioned Penderecki's Passion. It's the only one of mine scored for two pianos and orchestra. That's enough clues for now. ;D

OK, while I was writing this you guys narrowed it down very well. I've therefore made the clue a little shorter. :P

It's neither Continuum nor Fantasmagoria.

I must say I'm really impressed, BTW. Serocki is one of my favorite composers, and I've been intending to start a separate thread on him for a long time now.

Not to sound sententious, but what's good about this thread is that it calls upon you to use all kinds of musical knowledge - history, style, even typography - rather than just seeing a piece and identifying it on the spot.

OK, I'll just add a few clues to mine. The Serocki - I've already given you a clue that basically narrows it all down to one piece. ;D And BTW, if Larry doesn't know him, I'm definitely starting a thread on him this week!

As for the other two:

One is by a composer whose cause I've been championing almost since the moment I joined GMG. Luke once criticized this composer's cello writing, saying it's not idiomatic and very contrived. (Guido, I understand, thought the cello piece quite intriguing.) I've once posted samples of 3 different performances of the beginning of this piece.

The other is by a composer who doesn't really need advertising. The piece in question (certainly not one of his best) has been released by Naxos (though that wasn't the premiere recording). IIRC most of the GMGers who commented on that disc weren't very enthusiastic about this piece (though one or two of them did say they liked it). It is dedicated to a pianist with a Polish surname who isn't really Polish but a Swede of Polish descent.

Since my stock of good guesses had been depleted, I'll repost those of Guido's pictures which haven't been solved yet (BTW, Luke: it's 4th Symphony, and no. 5 is Serocki! $:), and thanks for including me in the list, BTW :)):

One is by a composer whose cause I've been championing almost since the moment I joined GMG. Luke once criticized this composer's cello writing, saying it's not idiomatic and very contrived. (Guido, I understand, thought the cello piece quite intriguing.) I've once posted samples of 3 different performances of the beginning of this piece.

Well, I suppose this - and it can only be no 1 or no 2, and I'm plumping for no 1 (see below) - must be Szymanski, though I don't recall being that harsh on his cello writing. I think I remember what you are talking about - I think the piece in question had some polyphonic techniques which I've also seen in James Dillon, and which never really come off as written to my mind, though they can be effective in other ways. Can't make a guess as to the piece, though to be safe I'll ask if it's a piano concerto

The other is by a composer who doesn't really need advertising. The piece in question (certainly not one of his best) has been released by Naxos (though that wasn't the premiere recording). IIRC most of the GMGers who commented on that disc weren't very enthusiastic about this piece (though one or two of them did say they liked it). It is dedicated to a pianist with a Polish surname who isn't really Polish but a Swede of Polish descent.

Is this Kilar, by any chance? Guessing no 2 is the second mvt of his Piano Concerto, which has this tempo marking and is described on Amazon UK as having a repetitive piano part (in keeping with what else I've heard of Kilar) (I could just listen to their sample, I suppose)(I did, and it is!)

Well done, Luke! I was going to say Watson but in fact you're definitely Holmes! 8)

I didn't think your criticism of Szymanski was all that harsh, and I'm pretty sure I disfigured it quite a bit anyway. Obviously, I was close enough for you to remember what I meant though. ;D It is Szymanski, and it is his Piano Concerto - the toccata-like opening, to be exact.

And yes the other piece is Kilar's Piano Concerto. But, surprise, surprise, it's the first movement (well, you couldn't have got everything right! ;D). Actually, I think this one works quite well. It's the second and third that are a bit tiring and trying...

I guess I should be more reticent in my clues. The title of the Serocki is still open to discussion though. ;D

Update: this is what you originally said about Szymanski's Gigue. I'm reposting it because I think it's a very intelligent and interesting comparison (even if I'm not sure if the complexity is actually less calculated than Ferneyhough's - I'm not saying that based on my analytical abilities - which are nonexistent, only taking Szymanski's word for it ;)):

Quote

Strange looking piece! Certainly extremely hard! Reminds me in general (specifics are different) of James Dillon's special way of writing for strings, which makes the assumption that two part counterpoint in complex rhythms (say, a line in ninths on the D string against on in sevenths on the G) is a normal way to play. This is a sort of idealised complexity a world away from the horrendous and more carefully calculated demands of a Ferneyhough, for instance.

Update: this is what you originally said about Szymanski's Gigue. I'm reposting it because I think it's a very intelligent and interesting comparison (even if I'm not sure if the complexity is actually less calculated than Ferneyhough's - I'm not saying that based on my analytical abilities - which are nonexistent, only taking Szymanski's word for it ;)):

I wasn't saying that Szymanski isn't as calculating as Ferneyhough, more that Ferneyhough's primary concern, one could say, is the difficulty of his music - it is a parameter he calculates and grades almost as a contrapuntal element in the music. It follows that however insanely difficult Ferneyhough is, it is always potentially possible. Whereas this string-writing technique of Dillon's, also seen to my mind in the piece of Szymanski - (a technique which is more broad-brush, simple in its own way, and yet often pretty much technically impossible to bring off) - really functions as a kind of shorthand for something else. IOW, what is written is not what is expected of the player, but their attempt to play it will produce the right sound. Taking this into account, the music is generally easier than Ferneyhough, who never uses this kind of notational 'shorthand'.

GMB 14 is correct Luke - Carter's cello concerto is one of the most significant CCs of recent years I think - and a piece that amply demonstrates how beautiful atonal scores can be in a fairly traditional sense (though it has its fair share of eruptive dissonance too! The Symphonia is another beautiful score).

OK Here's some clues for the rest

2 composers became US citizens after moving from Europe1 composer is famous for only one piece really1 composer worked very closely with two very famous composers on the creation of this piece1 composer is primarily known as a (current) conductor and also a film composer

I'm going to say that Larry's 31/22 is the prelude to the second scene of Delius's A Village Romeo and Juliet. I finally managed to catch on to Larry's syphilis Larry's clue about two composers having suffered from the same disease was what led me there - Wolf had syphilis; so did Delius, who also has American elements to his career (another Larry clue). I don't know this work, but 31/22 looks fairly Delian, and at least is fairly obviously English; listening to the Amazon sample I found I wasn't entirely sure until the last few seconds, where that opening flute figure returns.

For some reason I never imagined Larry owning a Delius score, mind you...

I'm going to say that Larry's 31/22 is the prelude to the second scene of Delius's A Village Romeo and Juliet. I finally managed to catch on to Larry's syphilis Larry's clue about two composers having suffered from the same disease was what led me there - Wolf had syphilis; so did Delius, who also has American elements to his career (another Larry clue). I don't know this work, but 31/22 looks fairly Delian, and at least is fairly obviously English; listening to the Amazon sample I found I wasn't entirely sure until the last few seconds, where that opening flute figure returns.

For some reason I never imagined Larry owning a Delius score, mind you...

Larry owns a few Delius scores. It's unjust of me to say how rotten Delius is if I've never heard any Delius. This piece, however, which is not from A Village Romeo and Juliet (unless he used the same material over again - which, come to think of it, could be said of his entire boring career), but is one of the few Delius pieces I can more or less tolerate. :D

It looks like one more of mine has to be guessed, and I'm kind of surprised so many have missed the mark on this one.

I don't suppose it can be if only one of the three was from an opera, because the implication of your last post is that the Delius isn't...

and there I was spending ages sifting the evidence.....

That rising melody which opens your Delius, whatever piece it is, is [almost] certainly in the Village R+J prelude I listened to....or maybe I was listening too hard for it. Listen (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/music/clipserve/B000001RZR001005/1/ref=mu_sam_ra001_005/026-5275857-5449242) and tell me if I'm mad! - towards the end, I thought.

I don't suppose it can be if only one of the three was from an opera, because the implication of your last post is that the Delius isn't...

and there I was spending ages sifting the evidence.....

That rising melody which opens your Delius, whatever piece it is, is [almost] certainly in the Village R+J prelude I listened to....or maybe I was listening too hard for it. Listen (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/music/clipserve/B000001RZR001005/1/ref=mu_sam_ra001_005/026-5275857-5449242) and tell me if I'm mad! - towards the end, I thought.

It is Delius, and it is from an opera.

Or perhaps more precisely, it is based by Delius on material from an opera. Perhaps I didn't have that straight.

Bear in mind I've never heard the piece and only seen chamber scores by the composer....

I sifted around your clues a little - a lot! - especially the bits about Brahms, Beecham (I worked him out, via Delius, from another of your clues) and the composer being Jewish. Wiki was - for once - quite a lot of help. I follwed a red herring thinking the music was French (led astray by the edition) until I saw the 'sehr zart'.

One thing confused me a little - your clue which said

Quote

Two of the composers lived during the same highly partisan period in musical history, but one managed to stay friendly to both sides while the other was quite rabidly partisan.

I assume this refers to Wolf (rabidly partisan beyond all doubt) and Goldmark (Wiki quotes Liebermann: "His writing is distinctive for his even-handed promotion of both Brahms and Wagner, at a time when audiences (and most critics) were solidly in one composer's camp or the other and viewed those on the opposing side with undisguised hostility.") - but Goldmark (b.1830) was 30 years older than Wolf (b.1860), whereas Delius (b.1862) was only two years Wolf's junior - and yet Delius was as rabidly partisan as Wolf, AFAIK.

Bear in mind I've never heard the piece and only seen chamber scores by the composer....

I sifted around your clues a little - a lot! - especially the bits about Brahms, Beecham (I worked him out, via Delius, from another of your clues) and the composer being Jewish. Wiki was - for once - quite a lot of help. I follwed a reed herring thinking the music was French (led astray by the edition) until I saw the 'sehr zart'.

One thing confused me a little - your clue which said

I assume this refers to Wolf (rabidly partisan beyond all doubt) and Goldmark (Wiki quotes Liebermann: "His writing is distinctive for his even-handed promotion of both Brahms and Wagner, at a time when audiences (and most critics) were solidly in one composer's camp or the other and viewed those on the opposing side with undisguised hostility.") - but Goldmark (b.1830) was 30 years older than Wolf (b.1860), whereas Delius (b.1862) was only two years Wolf's junior - and yet Delius was as rabidly partisan as Wolf, AFAIK.

Anyway, got there in the end.

***

So, the Delius is opera-derived....the Irmelin prelude?

Sorry about all that. Delius Irmelin Prelude - yes! All mine are in for now.

I think the composers of two are reasonably easy to find (or at least not impossible), if not the actual piece in question (although once the composer is guessed there is only a very limited range of things that each could be.)

On the one with for violin and piano, close study of the violin part might be advised...

On the one with for violin and piano, close study of the violin part might be advised...

Aha! - I had already thought of Schumann, but his A minor Sonata wasn't right. But....

...I forgot the Schumann-initiated FAE Sonata - Frei aber einsam - which was a collaborative effort between Schumann (who wrote the second and fourth movements), Brahms (whose Scherzo is probably the best-known movement) and Albert Dietrich, Schumann's pupil, whose first movement must be the answer to Guido's question. Dietrich must have absorbed enough of his teacher's style to be mistaken for him, because as I initially said, Schumann was my first thought when I saw this score.

The clue which Guido was hinting at, I assume, is the highlighted F - A - E on the last line (each movement makes reference to this motto); and now his clue about one of his works being a collaborative effort also makes sense.

I'm sorry that the instrument name here is not clear - I didn't intend that - but it is possible to work out what it is from its position in the score - that is to say, it is above something else - and you can make out some of the name further down the page. Also the type of music it is playing, and the notes themselves, suggest a particular instrument, though one aspect of the articulation is not common practice for this instrument. It's worth pointing out at this juncture that, whilst he was composing this piece, the composer was also engaged as a copyist working on, among other things, the most strikingly innovative parts of one of the two large orchestral works of the composer of my no 25. Got that? ;D

Once you've determined what's going on here, surely the answer will come in seconds.

Neither are masterpieces, and not the composers best work (although I like one very much in deed), but I think that the composers are gettable from the scores, and as I say, once that has been got, there's only a limited number of pieces that each could be.

No, not cellos. I assumed there were double basses below the staff with the arpeggiated G+ chord, and I carelessly didn't notice the two unpitched staves at the very bottom of some of the systems. Since one does not normally expect that at the bottom of a score, maybe these are percussion instruments. But I cannot make out any instrument names at all except one Trb.; all I can see are I-II-III-IV. It's cropped too tight at the left and too blurry to get any more.

Now let me think who was a copyist for Varèse when he was writing Amériques or Arcana, and frankly I don't know....

No, not cellos. I assumed there were double basses below the staff with the arpeggiated G+ chord, and I carelessly didn't notice the two unpitched staves at the very bottom of some of the systems. Since one does not normally expect that at the bottom of a score, maybe these are percussion instruments. But I cannot make out any instrument names at all except one Trb.; all I can see are I-II-III-IV. It's cropped too tight at the left and too blurry to get any more.

Now let me think who was a copyist for Varèse when he was writing Amériques or Arcana, and frankly I don't know....

Let me give a further hint - how many different pitches are each of I, II, III and IV - and V and VI - playing? What does this suggest, instrumentally?

And what does this conclusion suggest, in terms of what work this must be?

Let me give a further hint - how many different pitches are each of I, II, III and IV - and V and VI - playing? What does this suggest, instrumentally?

And what does this conclusion suggest, in terms of what work this must be?

The pitches suggest a whole lot of timpani - but the legato phrasing suggests otherwise.

I am wondering if this could be Colin McPhee, who studied with Varèse and was noted for his interest in gamelan. Maybe his supposedly best-known work, Tabuh-Tabuhan. But I've never heard it and would never get it from the score. (Of course, maybe if I saw the instrument designations .... :D )

No, it isn't, but this piece is in part indebted to the Berlioz Requiem, for the reasons you imply, and to Berlioz in general, for other reasons. It is also, however, indebted to many other composers, without ever being less than an entirely personal work.

Think big, Larry [or anyone else], very big.

and think of pieces you've not been fulsome in your praise of in the past.... ;D (though I'm pleased that on the evidence of the score you judge it 'not as simple-minded as Glass' - that's something, at least! ;D ;D )

No, it isn't, but this piece is in part indebted to the Berlioz Requiem, for the reasons you imply, and to Berlioz in general, for other reasons. It is also, however, indebted to many other composers, without ever being less than an entirely personal work.

Think big, Larry [or anyone else], very big.

and think of pieces you've not been fulsome in your praise of in the past.... ;D (though I'm pleased that on the evidence of the score you judge it 'not as simple-minded as Glass' - that's something, at least! ;D ;D )

as far as that goes, all you need[ed] to know is that there's masses of everything. On this page, in addition to the six sets of three timps, there are 2 cornets, 12 trumpets, 11 trombones, 10 tubas....and two bass drums. That scale is reflected in the rest of the orchestra and in the piece's length.

Yes I did. Well, it was a present, actually, when I was a teenager....

But I'm proud of it!

as far as that goes, all you need[ed] to know is that there's masses of everything. On this page, in addition to the six sets of three timps, there are 2 cornets, 12 trumpets, 11 trombones, 10 tubas....and two bass drums. That scale is reflected in the rest of the orchestra and in the piece's length.

Well, I've been thinking of trading my Marco Polo CDs for the reissue on Naxos, just to save bloat room. But I can't bear the idea of coughing up $12 when I've already spent $25 on that gothic monstrosity . . . :D

Yes I did. Well, it was a present, actually, when I was a teenager....

But I'm proud of it!

as far as that goes, all you need[ed] to know is that there's masses of everything. On this page, in addition to the six sets of three timps, there are 2 cornets, 12 trumpets, 11 trombones, 10 tubas....and two bass drums. That scale is reflected in the rest of the orchestra and in the piece's length.

BTW, Larry, - I'm not at all upset, as from my first posting of this example I was aware of your possible reaction! ;D But, if you'll indulge me, and speaking purely musically, I've always been genuinely interested to know your criticisms of this piece - which is certainly very far from above criticism - because as you ought ot know by now, I value your insights. I suspect it is merely a matter of standards, and that mine are set rather lower than yours...

My own view on the quality of The Gothic is this, FWIW: It seems to me that works of this sort - extreme, late-Romantic, heaven-storming things of limitless ambition - call for a kind of spontaneity and even naivety on the part of the composer; something more calculating or more 'perfect' just wouldn't do, aesthetically, would strike a jarring note (that is part of the problem with Mahler 8, IMO). Brian's Gothic is flawed, seriously so, and not even the most ardent Brianite would deny it (Malcolm Macdonald, attempting a personal 'ranking' of the HB 32 places The Gothic aside at the very start, as he says it is far from Brian's finest piece but at the same time is his most important, essential one, his true masterpiece). But the flaws are necessary, are indeed part of the vision (as they are in much of my favourite music - Janacek, Ives....), and they make it a very human, brave document IMO.

Of course, if The Gothic were only flaws then it would be worth forgetting as quickly as possible, but to my mind, when it catches fire, as it does very often and for sustained periods of time, there is literally nothing like it. I have fallen out of love with Romantic music in the last few years, but to me works like this stand hors concours, above matters of style - the last five or ten minutes of The Gothic, from which my example comes, are unique, and uniquely powerful; to my mind more shattering than anything in Mahler etc. - and that is partly because they have obviously been through the fire (as Janacek would say) and are unmediated by smooth technique or calculating tricks of presentation.

oh, BTW, maximum staves in The Gothic score is something between 50 and 60 (I can't check because I'm not at home). Nothing too terrible - Ligeti is just as extreme, isn't he? ???

How about some more clues for the other ones, Luke? We're not really moving ahead... :-\

More clues....

OK, I'll be specific to the particular examples, then. I expect them to start tumbling in the next few minutes, because some of these clues are pretty blatant... strikethrough = found

no 9 - this is the memorial one, with a solo guitar. I was wrong when I said it only had one recording; it has at least two. I got a CD by this composer in the post today, if that helps. ;D

no 13 - this is the American one whose title, and this specific moment, refer to works from Europe (Vienna, in fact). I have met this composer, if that helps. He had a beard, but he didn't when he wrote this piece ;D

no 21 - this is the concert version of the film score. This composer is well known for his film scores, but equally for his concert work. He is often said to have been the first to apply the term minimalism to music.

no 25 - this is the one which is an attempt to conjure up a landscape/culture. Just look down the list of instruments and you'll find it. The composer does not come from that country, but he did work there for a while. He writes complex music, as you ought not need to be told.

no 27 - this piece has been mentioned in passing on another thread (composers board) in the last day or two. The composer appears to have two Christian names and no surname.

no 28 - this piece begins with a depicition of mass-murder-as-entertainment, Roman style.

no 29 - this piece, as Larry determined, is by Balakirev or Borodin. Surely you don't need more than that!

Genius. Well done!!! The first movement, which deconstructs Mozart's Sinfonia Concertante, and quite beautifully, if I may say so as a non-Nyman-ite. He extracts all appogiature from a passage of the slow movement and simply repeats them all (three times each in the film score, varying numbers in the concert version....or the other way round). (Well, it's not quite that simple, but nearly). The result is actually very interesting, a sort of concentrated Mozart, all the most expressive moments compressed together, but under the cool an unemotional hand of a process - it's this dichotomy which makes the whole thing work.

The whole score to the film is based on this melody, BTW, but only this part quotes it directly.

To me, his supreme masterpiece is the cycle of songs on Rilke's poems "Der Cornet", one of the most powerful and deeply touching cycle of Lieder I heard since Schubert. Lipovsek and Zagrosek are good, but I prefer the more subtle version of Jard van Nes and De Leeuw.

The cello concerto, from 1965, is another beautiful work.

Golgotha, in the tradition of Honegger's oratorios, with a more popular language, has very strong moments.

Other masterpieces of Frank Martin: Jedermann (with Fischer Dieskau!), the Requiem, the Mass for double choir and the Oratorio In Terra Pax, the 2nd piano concerto.

BTW, Larry, - I'm not at all upset, as from my first posting of this example I was aware of your possible reaction! ;D But, if you'll indulge me, and speaking purely musically, I've always been genuinely interested to know your criticisms of this piece - which is certainly very far from above criticism - because as you ought ot know by now, I value your insights. I suspect it is merely a matter of standards, and that mine are set rather lower than yours...

Nonsense! I have no standards at all. :D

Unfortunately, I haven't heard it in several years, and like a bad dinner, it's a taste I'm trying to delete from my mouth permanently. Which means to answer you, I'd have to hear it all again, and if I were to hear it all again, I'd get the Naxos, and so you see my problem.

Unfortunately, I haven't heard it in several years, and like a bad dinner, it's a taste I'm trying to delete from my mouth permanently. Which means to answer you, I'd have to hear it all again, and if I were to hear it all again, I'd get the Naxos, and so you see my problem.

I'm half tempted to put up a short sample of the end of the piece (including the page in my sample) just to refresh your memory! This is the part which I find uniquely impressive - the music, in these last minutes, starts to whirl out of control, oscillating ever more wildly between extremes of violent convulsion and passionate supplication, before the summatory final cadence (which encapsulates the tonal trajectory of the piece, enveloping a D major triad within an E major one before the later fades out alone). It has such conviction and so little artifice, it really strikes me as one of the most awesome moments in music.

I'm half tempted to put up a short sample of the end of the piece (including the page in my sample) just to refresh your memory! This is the part which I find uniquely impressive - the music, in these last minutes, starts to whirl out of control, oscillating ever more wildly between extremes of violent convulsion and passionate supplication, before the summatory final cadence (which encapsulates the tonal trajectory of the piece, enveloping a D major triad within an E major one before the later fades out alone). It has such conviction and so little artifice, it really strikes me as one of the most awesome moments in music.

no 25 - this is the one which is an attempt to conjure up a landscape/culture. Just look down the list of instruments and you'll find it. The composer does not come from that country, but he did work there for a while. He writes complex music, as you ought not need to be told.

Surely, you must mean no 24? The one with 2 didjeridoos. The hint doesn't work on me though - can't think of a single non-Australian's piece dedicated to Australian landscape... :-[

Surely, you must mean no 24? The one with 2 didjeridoos. The hint doesn't work on me though - can't think of a single non-Australian's piece dedicated to Australian landscape... :-[

Oh, did I get the number wrong - sorry! Yes, the didj one, of course. Remember, as I've said, the composer writes complex music - and composers generally associated with the style I am trying heavy-handedly to imply are for the most part from a particular country not to far from where I am sitting now. Indeed, directly underneath me. One of them has written quite a few Australian-themed works, including this one for orchestra.

OK, here we are. Three files, ripped at very low rate to keep them small, to follow on from each other.

The Gothic, as you know, is in two parts of three movements each, the second part being a setting of the Te Deum for massed choirs and an expanded orchestra. I mention this simply because, in my own mind, I hear another set of divisions on top of this one. Specifically, in the last movement, I sense a point where the music seems to ascend to another level of experience, as if it has pushed through a barrier by dint of sheer effort and courage ('Whoever strives with all his might, that man can we save' as the Symphony's Goethe motto has it) and attained a bizarre vision. This section, in my ears, starts with the peculiar march for massed clarinet-family, through the carefree diatonic material sung to 'la' (which includes the only place where practically everything is playing and the passionately, gravely beautiful bass solo. The whole section as I see it is rounded off by

mp3 1 - an unaccompanied double fugue for chorus in E minor - In te Domine speravi - whose opening contours (EGEB) echo those of the opening subject of the whole symphony (DFDA). This expression of faith, to my mind, closes off this level of the symphony, and opens on to another, the last one of all

mp3 2 - the 'faith' is assailed on all sides by massed brass and timps (my score example) - though even here the timps' material is based on EGEB. There are two waves of timps, the second more rigid and relentless than the first. After each wave the choir is reduced to a desparate rising 'non confundar'

mp3 3 - Several last climaxes put the seal on the symphony. In between come reminiscences of the timp EGEB, a hauntingly expressive cello cantilena which shares the augmented triad implications of so many melodies in the symphony's second part, a lone oboe.... finally, the choirs, alone, whisper 'non confundar in aeternum', their harmony summing up the symphonies main tonal dichotomy simply and beautifully - E major; E major+D major; E major.

And they ought to be relatively simple, I think. One is very well known indeed - I suspect most members here have heard it; the other will be known by all who are interested in contemporary music, I am sure.

1) the recording itself is far from ideal, although it's tough to be picky when there's only this one to choose from. But compare what you hear with what you see in the sample I gave, and you'll get a measure of this.

2) my resampling at such a low rate has done it no favours, either!

Remember that the three files are supposed to follow one after the other.

No. 13This is a complete shot in the dark - I know very little of the composer's music and not this particular piece. But it's worth a try (he's the only American composer I know you've met):John Adams - Harmonielehre??

No. 13This is a complete shot in the dark - I know very little of the composer's music and not this particular piece. But it's worth a try (he's the only American composer I know you've met):John Adams - Harmonielehre??

You're absolutely right. I've heard the piece only a couple of times, but I have a score, and there it was on page 130. Now I'm embarrassed! (But I never knew Luke had met Adams.)

Thanks for reassuring me about the Adams! Luke's comments about the beard put me off a bit. Does that mean it's an old piece? A new piece? What on earth is he trying to convey? ;D Now I feel obliged to seek out a recording... ::)

What? Can it be? I've only noticed this now: has no one yet guessed the title of Guido's Piazzolla piece (no. 8 )? Why, it's the lovely Libertango! (Or, as the spell-checker would have it: The Libertine Tango. ;D) I have a recording in a completely different arrangement - didn't know there was a piano solo version.

Good morning. Adams Harmonielehre is correct, as Larry has confirmed. The thing about me meeting him was not meant as a genuine clue, but it obviously functioned as one. ;D The work which stands behind this particular page - the climax of the central movement - is Mahler 10, specifically the famous dissonant chord at its climax.

1 composer took American citizenship1 composer is really only famous for one work (and maybe this could be said of the other too?)

So two more clues:

One composer was a mushroom connoisseurBoth composers often have religious or mystical themes to their works (though not in the specific pieces here, which perhaps throws one off the scent).

Neither of Guido's - 15 and 17, if I have been keeping score correctly - look at all like Cage, the only mushroom connoisseur I can think of among composers! (I emphasize - Cage isn't even a tentative guess here, as he has nothing remotely like these piece in his worklist)

Of course. We could be painting pictures using a computer, for one. But as I stated earlier, this kind of mutual testing of each other's knowledge serves as an excellent way to exercise all one's awareness of musical style, history, and even typography.

No sorry Maciek. More famous than that. Neither are by really obscure composers. I feel guilty as neither are that exciting! (although I like one of them very much!).

17 is the mushroom connoisseur, the European who became an american (think of when and why that might have been), Often has overtly religious themes in his music. Look at the mood of the work, and the general nature of the writing.

15 is only really famous for one work. His music often had mystical themes. Look at the meter, and harmonic language.

No sorry Maciek. More famous than that. Neither are by really obscure composers. I feel guilty as neither are that exciting! (although I like one of them very much!).

17 is the mushroom connoisseur, the European who became an american (think of when and why that might have been), Often has overtly religious themes in his music. Look at the mood of the work, and the general nature of the writing.

I've tended to think this one is Eastern European, but have got no further yet.

OK, 17 may be by Bloch - I thought it looked a little like him, but my collection of his cello music doesn't have this piece IIRC. Google says that he was a mushroom hunter, though I had no idea about that.

I'm going to go through my various Bloch viola and violin CDs to see if this is a transcription - I recall you said one of your examples was..... bags the correct answer, though ;D

Of course. We could be painting pictures using a computer, for one. But as I stated earlier, this kind of mutual testing of each other's knowledge serves as an excellent way to exercise all one's awareness of musical style, history, and even typography.

How about contributing a few scores yourself, or a few guesses?

I would if I wasn't a total philistine who doesn't own scores or understand a single line of music.

But yes Luke - that is correct! This is the piece I am very fond of, despite (or because?) of it's limitations. It's a very beautiful piece and a very valuable addition to the otherwise small number of good miniatures for cello and orchestra. (Dvorak's Waldesruhe is another gem, and the Rondo is nice, and Faure's famous elegie of course, but there really are less than one would think. I'd like to commission some when I'm older! I'm very fond of John Williams' Heartwood for cello and orchestra too).

1) I thought it might be Bloch from quite early on but2) I have the complete Bloch Cello + Piano music, and this isn't in it, but3) Guido expressly said when he posted the piece that it is an arrangement from a viola work

If not for the satisfaction, it was worth it for that wonderful prize. ;D

What amazes me is that, while some of those pieces are ones I've heard several times (Respighi, Adams), if a page is taken out of context and I can't place it, I'm completely lost. But no excuses! On the whole, I guessed my fair share.

Don't think this is over, however. When I get home tonight, count on another dozen or so from me - and some of them harder yet! >:D

And now for the statistics. Out of 111 actual pieces, the following number of correct guesses were made by:

[po-faced mode on] I don't want to think of this as a contest, mind you - not given the number of variables. For instance, Larry set more questions than anyone else, and so was excluded from answering more than anyone else. And of course, the nature of the forum mitigates against serious competition - we are all on at different times, and so will see questions appear at different times. I know that I would have got Sean's first 7 instantly, having played all of them many times; Larry's first 6 too - but I was in France and missed the first few pages of the thread; likewise, Larry (I think) missed my giveaway clues last night, and Guido's this morning. Even things like connection speed have to be taken into consideration - there were two or three which I answered only to find that someone else beat me to it by seconds, my sluggish dial-up being partly to blame, perhaps! [/po-faced mode on]

My point being - for me, the fun is in the chase, not in competing.

Therefore, I too will be preparing some harder ones tonight, time permitting. ;D

What amazes me is that, while some of those pieces are ones I've heard several times (Respighi, Adams), if a page is taken out of context and I can't place it, I'm completely lost. But no excuses! On the whole, I guessed my fair share.

Don't think this is over, however. When I get home tonight, count on another dozen or so from me - and some of them harder yet! >:D

And now for the statistics. Out of 111 actual pieces, the following number of correct guesses were made by:

Luke wins the grand prize - a link to the official Havergal Brian Website! Keep up the good work, guys! :D

oh, you watch, when i get older and have a huge library of scores (especially modern ones) i'm going to be up there with Luke ;)congratulations to Luke, btw

Maciek, i've had the same problem with sound files playing too fast before- it was when i was using a player from this one website to play music on my myspace page. I put up my Electric Guitar performance of Paganini's 16th caprice and it played it way too fast, all of the less than 2 min. of music played in about 20 seconds, repeated in a loop. The only thing I did different with it was that I converted my sound file to mp3 using an audio program (before it was wav). But if you get something from a CD (originally WAV) rip the files to your computer (as Mp3) there was no problems with the playback. You didn't use an audio program to convert it from wav to mp3, did you?

Is Camrbidge in Norfolk? i thought it was was. I couldn't actually remember if you lived in Norfolk or East Anglia, so I went with Cambridge : /

Cambridge is a town. It is the county town of Cambridgeshire, which is named after Cambridge, which is named after a river, the Cam, and a bridge over it. Subtle, huh? I used to live there; Guido lives there at the moment.

Norfolk is a county. Its county town is Norwich. I live in Norfolk now.

Both Norfolk and Cambridgeshire are in East Anglia, which is a region.

MM09Yep, Luke snatched it before Guido got here (sorry, Guido, it was intended for you to guess but I was aware that Luke would be a contender... - and he's on dial-up, so he deserved it ;D). It's Chopin's Cello Sonata - the final bars.(http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/8/25/1381505/MM09.jpg)

Set by Manuel 2:2 - Rzewski - Which Side Are You On - (Luke) (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3125.msg78030.html#msg78030)Manuel hasn't confirmed this one yet, but I'm fairly sure, so I'll leave it like this for now...

Oh, and Luke, I've moved all of mine here: http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3125.msg78087.html#msg78087 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3125.msg78087.html#msg78087).

BTW, I'm not criticizing you (or Greg, or myself ;D)! I like the difficult ones - it gives are equal chances when everyone has to guess. ;)

Manuel 2 - Rzewski - Which Side Are You On (North American Ballads). The specifics of that improvisation, and other details, suggest Rzewski strongly, but I needed to do a little searching through my box set.... (Google helped, too, to be honest)

If I'm right, that's two Rzewski pieces so far, maybe more to come....

I can't seem to load the picture of no 10, and I can't remember it at all, so this is merely a semi-educated guess: Krzysztof Meyer's String Trio? He's alive, and he's Polish, and he lives abroad, and he's written a String Trio, and you've talked about him....

Yep, mine unguessed ones are real easy too. :P ;) Especially the second one - it's by (warning: hint ahead) a really, really, really "famous" composer. One that has been featured on this thread before too!

With the ones I just mentioned of mine, (except the graphic score which is the locus classicus of its type), I think looking at the instrumentation carefully would be a big help; also the type of textures to which it is put. 40 and 41 are very idiomatic indeed; 36 less so, but it is an extremely well-known piece

With the ones I just mentioned of mine, (except the graphic score which is the locus classicus of its type), I think looking at the instrumentation carefully would be a big help; also the type of textures to which it is put. 40 and 41 are very idiomatic indeed; 36 less so, but it is an extremely well-known piece

Luke 36 looks so close to Boulez's Rituel in Memoriam Bruno Maderna, except that the typography looks more like an autograph score than the engraved one I have. But if it's not Rituel, it's its twin brother!

Luke 36 looks so close to Boulez's Rituel in Memoriam Bruno Maderna, except that the typography looks more like an autograph score than the engraved one I have. But if it's not Rituel, it's its twin brother!

I downloaded it from a friend who has the finest score collection I know of (at least in certain directions - he doesn't have any of the central repertoire, but what he does have outside it takes your breath away). It is page 21, IIRC, but that includes title page, orchestral layout page etc. etc.

I downloaded it from a friend who has the finest score collection I know of (at least in certain directions - he doesn't have any of the central repertoire, but what he does have outside it takes your breath away). It is page 21, IIRC, but that includes title page, orchestral layout page etc. etc.

Part of what threw me at first was that your score looks handwritten, and the page numbers don't match mine. The engraved UE 15 941 has this music mostly on page 19, but there are discrepancies - e.g., what is a 6/8 measure for the oboe in group I is 6/4 in the UE score.

Just checked - the page in question is number 21 of the scanned pages my friend sent me, which includes title pages etc., but as far as numbered pages go, it is number 17. The score itself is a UE score, though - obviously a different edition of the piece than yours, however. The bottom of the first page of music gives the date 1975, and the UE number 15941 LW. Apart from the music itself, most of the score - title, introductory notes etc. - is in the easily identifiable UE typeface

First a question - normally it would be addressed to Sean as the thread starter. But now that he has bailed out, it's left to the other users of this topic: don't you feel that perhaps this should be moved to the "Composing and Performing" section of the Music Room? Scores are, in a way, "technical" and less "general" than most other subjects started in the "General Classical Music Discussion" section. Somehow I feel this thread fits the general atmosphere of "Composing and Performing" better (besides - that's one of the smallest sections on GMG, it's always good to throw in another topic ;D). Also, the "Composing and Performing" section is much "slower" - so it would be always easy to find this topic (it wouldn't get "buried" by others easily). Please let me know your thoughts on this.

And now for some additional clues to mine:

while recording another piece by one of the composers, a certain soprano decided to take cash instead of royalties, and in effect missed out on a substantial income

one of the pieces is a part of a 3-part cycle; each part of that cycle is for an entirely different set of instruments

the composer of one of the pieces has written at least 11 other pieces of a similar kind

one of the pieces received an accolade at the UNESCO Rostrum

one of the pieces has a generic title

one of the pieces is not representative of the composer's current style

First a question - normally it would be addressed to Sean as the thread starter. But now that he has bailed out, it's left to the other users of this topic: don't you feel that perhaps this should be moved to the "Composing and Performing" section of the Music Room? Scores are, in a way, "technical" and less "general" than most other subjects started in the "General Classical Music Discussion" section. Somehow I feel this thread fits the general atmosphere of "Composing and Performing" better (besides - that's one of the smallest sections on GMG, it's always good to throw in another topic ;D). Also, the "Composing and Performing" section is much "slower" - so it would be always easy to find this topic (it wouldn't get "buried" by others easily). Please let me know your thoughts on this.

Neither, I'm afraid. But I know you can get both. 38 is an extremely dense, almost overloaded score, typical of this composer; the language set ought to help very much. Though the song itself is rather obscure, once you know the composer an internet search ought to find it - after all, that's where I got the score myself

39, as I said, is a page from the graphic score to end all graphic scores - the most famous and notorious, I think. It's composer - a controversial figure to say the least - was at the time earning his keep as a graphic designer, which perhaps shows in the score, which is a thing of beauty throughout its many pages (this one is page 183). A clue which will really help you - my father used to be a colleague of this composer's partner (though the composer himself is now dead, which is another story)

I am still positive that 40 and 41 are easily findable. In 40, it is not just the instruments but the way they are juxtaposed which is (in my experience) unique to this composer.

In 41, the music is stylistically extremely typical, but more than that, the instrumentation contains a big clue (you have to look carefully)

while recording another piece by one of the composers, a certain soprano decided to take cash instead of royalties, and in effect missed out on a substantial income

one of the pieces is a part of a 3-part cycle; each part of that cycle is for an entirely different set of instruments

the composer of one of the pieces has written at least 11 other pieces of a similar kind

one of the pieces received an accolade at the UNESCO Rostrum

one of the pieces has a generic title

one of the pieces is not representative of the composer's current style

OK, so we're saying one of them is Gorecki, are we? Following your generous clues a little......

Genesis I for string trio - the first of a cycle of three pieces, each for a different group of instruments. And it isn't representative of the composer's current style.

And the UNESCO thing must have a generic title - String Quartet, then! - and goes with the 11 other string quartets thing....this one is Meyer (you are right, I was getting warm before!). His 11th Quartet is his op 95, and two of his quartets have represented Poland at the Unesco rostrum.....so, this must be either String Quartet 2 or 3

I'm guessing no 2; if it's wrong, can we take my guess at no 3 as read? ;D ;D ;D

Neither, I'm afraid. But I know you can get both. 38 is an extremely dense, almost overloaded score, typical of this composer; the language set ought to help very much. Though the song itself is rather obscure, once you know the composer an internet search ought to find it - after all, that's where I got the score myself

Unfortunately the image is so hard to read I can't even make out the language for sure. I see the word "nostro" at one point, but then I see "zvon," so it can't be Italian.

(As you can tell by now, I've decided not to be coy about using Google any more, as I was before with Larry's famous no 20, the first one I used it for! As these questions get harder, we need all the help we can get!)

Unfortunately the image is so hard to read I can't even make out the language for sure. I see the word "nostro" at one point, but then I see "zvon," so it can't be Italian.

Maybe it will come to me. After all, I got some others in time.

I suppose it is easier if you know what language it is already! But your instincts are good - it is a Romance language, but not one of the more obvious ones. Personally, I think it is clearest on the last line.

Luke, you should be a detective (or did I give too many clues in one go?)! Yes, the one for trio is Henryk Mikolaj Gorecki's Genesis I (Elementi per tre archi). And yes, the other one is a String Quartet by Krzysztof Meyer. And, yes, it is the String Quartet No....... 3. :P

As for the connection between Schnittke and Meyer: 2 Slavic composers with German surnames. ;D ;D I'm sure you can appreciate the humor. 0:)

I suppose it is easier if you know what language it is already! But your instincts are good - it is a Romance language, but not one of the more obvious ones. Personally, I think it is clearest on the last line.

Yes! The score isn't in IMSLP, though they do have drool-worthy amounts of Enescu. However, it is online (JPEGs of each page) somewhere... the scanned copy belongs to contemporary Romanian composer Iancu Dumitrescu, which fact may well help if you wish to search for it.

I've been looking through Enescu scores available on-line for the past 20 minutes or so (therefore missing out on the discussion a bit) and it seems that the only vocal piece he's ever written to a Romanian text was "Eu ma duc, codrul ramane"...?

Re the Enescu - Seems, perhaps, but isn't. That one isn't that song. However, he set the text in a Romanian translation (by Emanoil Ciomac) of a poem by (French poet) Fernand Gregh. I have no idea if this is a give-away clue or not. If it isn't, I'd follow the Dumitrescu line of investigation instead. I've just found the score again myself by following links...

Sorry - needlessly sent you down a blind alley. My father has lived in Britain since he was 9

That does make a difference! :D

More clues for mine: One is by a composer whose work was admired by Stravinsky, who was close friends in his youth with a famous American composer-conductor who recorded this piece at the start of his career, and who gradually gave up on his composing because he was unwilling to adopt a 12-tone idiom.

The other is by a composer who is a year younger than I, who was a freshman composition major at the same midwestern American conservatory where I was a sophomore. I, however, gave up on composition while he became a fairly well-known name.

No. You were right before ( I had to check in Noel Malcolm's book for clarification) - I think this is from op 19, in translation, though it's hard to be sure. You just have to guess which one of the three (not four - De la flute au cor got into the modern edition by mistake apparently) it is. Or to know the answer, obviously.... ;)

It was included into op. 19 10 years after the composers death but the Enescu Society lists that as a completely legitimate edition.

Apparently it was composed 13/14 years earlier than the other 3; Malcolm calls its inclusion in the 1965 and 67 editions a mistake, and the work's title Trois Melodies sur Poemes de Fernand Gregh had to be altered to Quatre Melodies.... It sounds as if the edition itself is legitimate - these are four songs setting Gregh's words - but the inclusion of an earlier one under an opus number set aside for later ones isn't authentic, because if Enescu had wanted it included he could have done so. In addition, according to Malcolm the style of of the three later songs is something new for the composer, and for this reason too the earlier one does not belong.

Here's another shot (your internet search clues don't seem to be working for me, and this is apparently a very rare score ::)):Le Silence musicien?

I think so, yes. The site I downloaded it from (here (http://www.geocities.com/romanianscores/enesculied1.html) is the score) translates the title as Quiet Song; the Romanian title is Cînt Tăcut. These look close enough for me to assume you have the right answer, though there is no opus number on the score.

The title of the page is "Quiet Song" (in English), so I guess that could very well be (a pretty rough) French to Romanian to English translation of "Le Silence musicien". We could ask Florestan to tell us the details - but I'm not sure if understanding the text will help (since it seems Gregh's French poems are nowhere to be found on-line)... And I for one am not that curious about this. ;D

I get the feeling I ought to chip in with a few more clues to my remaining questions

37 - this is not, in itself, AFAIK, a composition, though it looks like one and could function as one. It contains three long and complex musical lines which form the basis for a much larger set of compositions. This method of composing is typical of this composer.

38 - I'm sure I've said all that needs to be said about this one: the instruments, the character of what they play, and their juxtapositions are completely characteristic of this composer and of no-one else that I can think of offhand

41 - ditto this one. I am reluctant to give more clues than the one I have: look carefully at the instruments

44 - instrument; country; character of melodic lines; possible composers reduce to a very small number

45 - we've had compositions by this composer posted already on this thread, though nothing like this piece. The name of the work is included in the text on this page.

46 - this is quite a hard one

47 - this one is almost impossible, I freely admit, so here are lots of clues. The composer is my old fugue teacher; he used to turn up to supervisions looking bedraggled in suspiciously stained concert-clothes from the previous night; he became a member of GMG's last incarnation for one post; he is an exceptional pianist specialising in the complex end of the contemporary repertoire (Ferneyhough, Finnissy, DIllon etc. etc.); he is also a Sorabji specialist who has performed Opus Clavicembalisticum five times (according to his Wiki page); he is an expert on Russian futurist composers of the Mosolov/Roslavetz type. This piece is a song which I downloaded from the BMIC, and though I don't think the score is still there, I imagine the piece is still catalogued on their web site.

48 - an extraordinary piece, I could have chosen dozens more instantly recognisable, visually impressive pages. However, this page includes one of the most unbelievable sections of the score, in the exposed music written for the highlighted soloist at this point - solo starts at number 420, and is written at pitch! :o If you've heard this piece, you will probably remember this bit.

49 - written (obviously) by a Japanese composer (also an exceptional pianist). In the 60s he lived and worked in Europe, taking a very active and important part in the Western contemporary music scene. Among other things he was the dedicatee and first performer of Xenakis's first great piece for solo piano. However, he returned to Japan with the wish to make his music more relevant to his own culture; though not always superficially Japanese sounding (as e.g Takemitsu), his music is profoundly Japanese in spirit. Many of his scores are downloadable at his website, where you can find this piece.

47 - this one is almost impossible, I freely admit, so here are lots of clues. The composer is my old fugue teacher; he used to turn up to supervisions looking bedraggled in suspiciously stained concert-clothes from the previous night; he became a member of GMG's last incarnation for one post; he is an exceptional pianist specialising in the complex end of the contemporary repertoire (Ferneyhough, Finnissy, DIllon etc. etc.); he is also a Sorabji specialist who has performed Opus Clavicembalisticum five times (according to his Wiki page); he is an expert on Russian futurist composers of the Mosolov/Roslavetz type. This piece is a song which I downloaded from the BMIC, and though I don't think the score is still there, I imagine the piece is still catalogued on their web site.

Do you really think we need all those clues for an easy one like that? :P The answer is glaringly obvious. This is page one of Serebryaniy vek (The Silver Age), a composition for soprano and piano from 1996 by Jonathan Powell.

Do you really think we need all those clues for an easy one like that? :P The answer is glaringly obvious. This is page one of Serebryaniy vek (The Silver Age), a composition for soprano and piano from 1996 by Jonathan Powell.

;D ;D Not everyone knows their stuff like you, though, Maciek. We have to give them a chance too.

49 - I liked the clues for this one. Plain and simple. Thanks for pointing out the title which I of course missed (the picture really pulls too much of one's attention). The answer is: Yuji Takahashi - Sa

49 - I liked the clues for this one. Plain and simple. Thanks for pointing out the title which I of course missed (the picture really pulls too much of one's attention). The answer is: Yuji Takahashi - Sa

That's OK - I didn't think the title on its own was much help, so I left it in. Those clues made it pretty easy, didn't they!? I think at this point my contributions to this thread are just going to turn into links to downloadable scores! Takahashi's page has some gems, as does the BMIC one which you know.

I don't know Kancheli's work. The Rouse piece is Gorgon. I thought of quoting the passage where he has 3 Mahler-style hammers slamming the downbeat all at once, but the ending is extreme enough (that poor timpanist gets a workout). Rouse was a freshman at Oberlin while I was a sophomore.

I'm genuinely surprised me other piece isn't getting identified. I thought it would be easy, especially with my excellent clues.

I don't know Kancheli's work. The Rouse piece is Gorgon. I thought of quoting the passage where he has 3 Mahler-style hammers slamming the downbeat all at once, but the ending is extreme enough (that poor timpanist gets a workout). Rouse was a freshman at Oberlin while I was a sophomore.

That's how I got it... I was sitting here, and suddenly the word Oberlin popped into my head!

Yeah, I didn't spot the theremin initially, though my once-over of the score made me think Martinu (his style is pretty darn distinctive).

I really don't have much of a clue over the rest: though the scoring in #48 looks very Rihmian, I don't recognize the handwriting.

I can't let that go, if you don't recognise the handwriting and still think it is Rihm from the scoring, I am deeply impressed. :o It is Rihm...one of his better known pieces. Try to call that solo to mind.

I can't let that go, if you don't recognise the handwriting and still think it is Rihm from the scoring, I am deeply impressed. :o It is Rihm...one of his better known pieces. Try to call that solo to mind.

I'll play stab in the dark, since you say better known, I'll guess Jagden und Formen?

I always think of this sort of harp-against-trumpet-and-trombone writing as very typical of the composer.

That's how I got it... I was sitting here, and suddenly the word Oberlin popped into my head!

I thought I knew it, or something like it...but it isn't what I thought it was, not at all. I'm sure I'll groan when it is revealed!

Maybe it would help it you heard some of it (and then think of what will happen if it's what you thought originally). The audio excerpt doesn't match the score print 100%; it starts a couple of bars in and goes on for another few measures past my score print.

It is an excerpt from one of my very favorite pieces of American music, a work that was truly celebrated for a while but is largely forgotten today.

I'm beginning to think (on the basis of the clues) that Larry's remaining one is David Diamond. I'm assuming one of the Symphonies....could be no 4.....or, no, hang on - Music for Romeo and Juliet (Juliet and her Nurse)? Something like that.

edit - now let me go and listen to that sample I've just seen!

second edit - OK, it isn't one of those, but it still might be Diamond. I really don't know what at the moment.

I'm beginning to think (on the basis of the clues) that Larry's remaining one is David Diamond. I'm assuming one of the Symphonies....could be no 4.....or, no, hang on - Music for Romeo and Juliet (Juliet and her Nurse)? Something like that.

edit - now let me go and listen to that sample I've just seen!

second edit - OK, it isn't one of those, but it still might be Diamond. I really don't know what at the moment.

Something was bugging me about it--I was pretty sure I'd seen the handwriting before, and then I looked at the date at the bottom of the score. BAM! Early in the writing of Licht, and then it fell into place: the nature of the melodic lines was exactly right and the exceptional level of specified detail in the score was typical of Stockhausen (and of course there are three melodic formulae, one each for Eve, Michael and Lucifer).

Edward - impressive stuff. You are right about the peculiar detail in these formulas, and how important even the smallest thing becomes when magnified up. I'm still utterly bowled over by Inori, one of the classic examples of this formula technique, years after Al kindly introduced lots of us to it.

Guido, I will have to look for the Takahashi site - IIRC it was hard to find the second time I wanted it. In the meantime, the link that leads to the Enescu song also leads to this page (http://www.geocities.com/romanianscores/bartokvcl1.html), which may be up your alley.

Guido - much easier to refind than I thought (or maybe my searching techniques have improved). Here's the page of Takahashi scores (http://www.suigyu.com/yuji/en-works.html); there may be other useful pages linked from here, I can't remember.

Maybe it would help it you heard some of it (and then think of what will happen if it's what you thought originally). The audio excerpt doesn't match the score print 100%; it starts a couple of bars in and goes on for another few measures past my score print.

It is an excerpt from one of my very favorite pieces of American music, a work that was truly celebrated for a while but is largely forgotten today.

I should modify this to say the piece was also championed by another well-known composer-conductor who especially (as I do) admired this slow movement. Copland also admired this composer.

Thanks Luke. I havent heard of that Bartok before - it looks very interesting.

(I adore the First Rhapsody arranged for cello and piano and naturally think it sounds much better than the violin/piano version. actually I have an extraordinary recording of it for cello and orchestra played by Arto Noras, who I think is really one of the cello giants, but is oddly unknown outised of Scandinavia. Some of the most startlingly beautiful and virtuosic playing I've ever heard, even although the piece is far from the most difficult cello piece.)

Massive digression aside, that Bartok is some of the weirdest typesetting I have ever seen. It looks like its been done on paint!

I'll have to listen again - It never really grabbed me, despite the praise that Previn heaped on it ('the most beautiful slow movement of any American symphony') - always seemed a little conventional to me. I wonder if my ears have changed in the last 12 months! (I would hope that they had!)

Guido, these pieces aren't Bartok, but folksongs from his collection, arranged (much as he would have done) by Ana-Maria Avram, a Romanian composer of some pretty extraordinary works. I have quite a few pieces of her - she tends to share discs with Dumitrescu - and they are nothing like this. The notation here is odd-looking, I agree, but I think some of that might be deliberate. Certainly in other ways she seems to be trying to capture the flexibility of these songs, and it's possible that the peculiar notation is in part expressive of that.

Just to go off-topic a bit, anyone interested in weird things being done with folksongs from Bartok's collection might enjoy Horatiu Radulescu's piano concerto The Quest, possibly available cheaply from cpo. I think it's a fascinating piece.

I'm glad to see I'm not alone in thinking this guy greatly underrated.

I would go so far as to say that I think his playing is touched with genius. He's commissioned many magnificent Scandinavian concertos (most importantly the Sallinen IMO). Another one is Erling Blondal-Bengtsson - an astonishing player (Koppel cello concerto - one of the most amazing recordings I own, and also it's one of those pieces where one is staggered that it is not in the standard repertoire - though I suspect it is the very high level of difficulty of the solo part.)

Just to go off-topic a bit, anyone interested in weird things being done with folksongs from Bartok's collection might enjoy Horatiu Radulescu's piano concerto The Quest, possibly available cheaply from cpo. I think it's a fascinating piece.

Coincidence - was listening to that, and to the CPO disc of Radulescu piano sonatas 2, 3 and 4 (similar and related pieces), just yesterday. And to my mind, there is a common thread between these pieces and that Stockhausen masterpiece Inori that I mentioned a few posts up!

Funnily enough, certain things in the music I am writing at the moment remind me, in their insignificant way, of aspects of Inori, and of Radulescu, and of Takahashi, amongst others. But that says more about the direction my music is taking than anything else, I think.

I'll have to listen again - It never really grabbed me, despite the praise that Previn heaped on it ('the most beautiful slow movement of any American symphony') - always seemed a little conventional to me. I wonder if my ears have changed in the last 12 months! (I would hope that they had!)

That's it. The composer-conductors I referred to were, of course, Bernstein and Previn.

Set by Manuel 2:2 - Rzewski - Which Side Are You On - (Luke) (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3125.msg78030.html#msg78030)3 - ? (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3125.msg79205.html#msg79205)4 - ? (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3125.msg79205.html#msg79205)

excellent! 8)here's some hints:g11 and g12 are the same composer. g11 isn't John Cage, but has taken inspiration from him, and he may not be American. (this might be too easy now, but the greater difficulty would be determining which works these are)

g15- a score by a somewhat cutting-edge composer. I have the piece on CD, but i just want to hear someone guess who the composer is first, since most of you might not actually have the recording of this piece.

LR 45 - is this Maderna's Fantasia for two pianos and percussion? The Italian instrument names and the influence of Bartok on Maderna early on point me in this direction.

No, it's not, though in one way you're closer, and Bartok's name will come up again when the excerpt is identified. But no one has yet commented on the obvious point raised in this and a following excerpt.

No, it's not, though in one way you're closer, and Bartok's name will come up again when the excerpt is identified. But no one has yet commented on the obvious point raised in this and a following excerpt.

Do you mean the fact that 45 is an arrangement of 46 (or possibly vice versa). Do I get a point for that? ;D

Do you mean the fact that 45 is an arrangement of 46 (or possibly vice versa). Do I get a point for that? ;D

There we go! 45 and 46 are the same piece in different instrumentation. Now that you know there are four excerpts and three composers yet to identify, your next clue is that two of these composers were both at early stages in their careers rated very highly in certain circles, yet neither produced more than a handful of work. The other composer is American.

1) Googling this text gives no results, therefore it must be a translation2) The piece looks French for many reasons3) but few likely composers in this style - looks like early, pretty hardcore serialism - spring to mind except Barraque; however, it looks like early Barraque, and a lot less complex than those of his later scores which I have seen4) Barraque wrote an early piece, Sequence, which sets Nietzsche; this text looks fairly Nietzschean, though in translation5) Searching reveals (http://www.baerenreiter.com/html/zeitgen/barraque/barraque.htm) that Sequence's instrumentation is identical to this piece6) With this conjecture in mind, searching for this text and adding in the name Nieztsche throws up the verse set here:

'The crows cawAnd move in whirring flight to the city:Soon it will snow —Happy is he who yet—has a home!'

1) Googling this text gives no results, therefore it must be a translation2) The piece looks French for many reasons3) but few likely composers in this style - looks like early, pretty hardcore serialism - spring to mind except Barraque; however, it looks like early Barraque, and a lot less complex than those of his later scores which I have seen4) Barraque wrote an early piece, Sequence, which sets Nietzsche; this text looks fairly Nietzschean, though in translation5) Searching reveals (http://www.baerenreiter.com/html/zeitgen/barraque/barraque.htm) that Sequence's instrumentation is identical to this piece6) With this conjecture in mind, searching for this text and adding in the name Nieztsche throws up the verse set here:

'The crows cawAnd move in whirring flight to the city:Soon it will snow —Happy is he who yet—has a home!'

Correct. Three pieces of mine by two composers yet to go. Your next clues are that:- 45/46 exists actually in three versions, all of which have been recorded, but one of the scores has not been commercially published. The composer, who stopped writing at a fairly young age, went on to become a very famous musician in another capacity.- The other composer died a few years ago and was extremely prolific. He is well-recorded and was well-regarded among those who knew him, though. He also played clarinet and taught college.

OK - LR 45/46 - L'Envol d'Icare - Markevitch. The 2 piano/percussion version is a later rescoring of the earlier orchestral work (which I have on CD and did not recognise :-[ ). According to my liner notes, 'Bartok paid hommage to this trail-blazing score when completing his own Sonata for Two Pianos and percussion six years later).

It's hard to be entirely sure from comparing your score to my CD of L'Envol d'Icare (orchestral version), but the score is possibly Markevitch's later rescoring simply entitled Icare; there were a few clear differences in orchestration between the two.

You would not believe how many likely contenders I found for this piece last night, Larry! But the Markevitch it is.

OK - LR 45/46 - L'Envol d'Icare - Markevitch. The 2 piano/percussion version is a later rescoring of the earlier orchestral work (which I have on CD and did not recognise :-[ ). According to my liner notes, 'Bartok paid hommage to this trail-blazing score when completing his own Sonata for Two Pianos and percussion six years later).

It's hard to be entirely sure from comparing your score to my CD of L'Envol d'Icare (orchestral version), but the score is possibly Markevitch's later rescoring simply entitled Icare; there were a few clear differences in orchestration between the two.

You would not believe how many likely contenders I found for this piece last night, Larry! But the Markevitch it is.

Indeed the Markevitch it is. The orchestral version is however "Icare," not the earlier, more radical "L'Envol d'Icare" famous for its use of quarter tones. And I would say only Markevitch fits all my clues: a young composer who is initially lauded as the next great thing in modern music (Igor the Second, Diaghilev's last discovery), whose 2-piano percussion version of this score may have been the inspiration for Bartok's great Sonata, who composes only a few works and then stops altogether, and who pursues a major career as a conductor.

And I would say only Markevitch fits all my clues: a young composer who is initially lauded as the next great thing in modern music (Igor the Second, Diaghilev's last discovery), whose 2-piano percussion version of this score may have been the inspiration for Bartok's great Sonata, who composes only a few works and then stops altogether, and who pursues a major career as a conductor.

In case you think I was, I wasn't complaining about the quality of your clues - actually, they seemed very well graded. Markevitch is the only one who fits the clues you gave this morning, which is why I was able to get him quite quickly after I saw your last one - though I didn't see a clue about this piece being the inspiration for Bartok, only that you said that a connection would become evident between the two. Last night, however, when I was busy trying to find out who it was, I of course wasn't aware of this morning's clues yet! So I was surprised to find more than one work for two pianos and percussion which had been re-orchestrated into orchestral garb, including some which seemed possible fits for this piece (and the Markevitch wasn;t even one of them). All in all, then, your clues narrowed down the field gradually and effectively.

Indeed the Markevitch it is. The orchestral version is however "Icare," not the earlier, more radical "L'Envol d'Icare" famous for its use of quarter tones. And I would say only Markevitch fits all my clues: a young composer who is initially lauded as the next great thing in modern music (Igor the Second, Diaghilev's last discovery), whose 2-piano percussion version of this score may have been the inspiration for Bartok's great Sonata, who composes only a few works and then stops altogether, and who pursues a major career as a conductor.

The only other clue I'll give at this point is that my composer was also interested in jazz, and wasn't a radical avant-gardist. The delightful piece I'm quoting from has been thought of as an American counterpart to Prokofiev's Classical Symphony - though the composer's style is in fact far more eclectic and includes 12-tone writing.

The only other clue I'll give at this point is that my composer was also interested in jazz, and wasn't a radical avant-gardist. The delightful piece I'm quoting from has been thought of as an American counterpart to Prokofiev's Classical Symphony - though the composer's style is in fact far more eclectic and includes 12-tone writing.

So - to put all my clues together for this composition and amplify them: This charming little symphony, probably not representative of its composer as a whole because he works a lot with jazz and 12-tone idioms, has been recorded and I in fact am aware of at least 16 CDs devoted to this composer's orchestral work. He died recently, was highly prolific, a New York Jew who grew up in Brooklyn, son of an emigrant baker, a clarinetist, a college teacher, but though highly regarded by those who knew him he is not as well known to the public as many other American names. Maybe in a little while I'll post an audio excerpt from the piece in question.

Of course, everyone organizes their CDs that way. I file Stravinsky under "opera singer," Carter under "lace importer," Berlioz under "doctor," Beethoven under "drunkard," and so on. But since the CD is on your shelf, you can surely identify the symphony.

This charming little symphony, probably not representative of its composer as a whole because he works a lot with jazz and 12-tone idioms, has been recorded and I in fact am aware of at least 16 CDs devoted to this composer's orchestral work.

Well, until Greg and Manuel gives us some extra help, we're at a bit of an impasse! There's one more of mine left, LO 44; I'm reluctant to say much more than that this is one of the more important works of one of the most prominent figures of French organ music in the early 20th century.

So, to keep things ticking along, here are some more.

LO 50 - I am hoping no one reads this script, as, if they do, I don't imagine the answer will be long in coming

LO 52 - this piece will, I suspect, prove very difficult, so I'm happy to give lots of clues. It is a non-programmatic, concertante piece for cor anglais and orchestra; its composer is very well known.

LO 56 - one for Guido, perhaps? I expect he will get this quickly, given the chance. This piece makes reference to two other pieces by a different composer. One of those references appears on this page. The two references are also alluded to titularly.

Well, until Greg and Manuel gives us some extra help, we're at a bit of an impasse! There's one more of mine left, LO 44; I'm reluctant to say much more than that this is one of the more important works of one of the most prominent figures of French organ music in the early 20th century.

So, to keep things ticking along, here are some more.

LO 50 - I am hoping no one reads this script, as, if they do, I don't imagine the answer will be long in coming

LO 51 - there is a major clue in the musical substance of this page

From the range and character of the solo part, 51 looks like it could be write for a tenor voice. The accompaniment looks more orchestral than pianistic in style.

Larry, you are right on the Schoenberg male chorus thing; it's a pretty limited set of works, so it shouldn't be too hard finding which one this is (the most spectacular one, IMO)

Mark, that's exactly the clue I hoped someone would spot. This piece makes frequent reference to this potent idea throughout, but this page is one of the most specific in that respect. It is an instrumental work, and the piano part is not a reduction.

Just to keep this thing at the top... as you can see, I've stuck the two lists together, so as to have everything in one place and easy to access.

Well, I could get partial credit for the composer on LO51... :D

I would love to capture all of these images into a Word file or PDF and send it around to all interested, before Rob inevitably deletes all the graphics. We could be the ones responsible for the database crashing every other day. ;D

I would love to capture all of these images into a Word file or PDF and send it around to all interested, before Rob inevitably deletes all the graphics. We could be the ones responsible for the database crashing every other day. ;D

Well, until Greg and Manuel gives us some extra help, we're at a bit of an impasse! There's one more of mine left, LO 44; I'm reluctant to say much more than that this is one of the more important works of one of the most prominent figures of French organ music in the early 20th century.

So, to keep things ticking along, here are some more.

LO 50 - I am hoping no one reads this script, as, if they do, I don't imagine the answer will be long in coming

excellent! 8)here's some hints:g11 and g12 are the same composer. g11 isn't John Cage, but has taken inspiration from him, and he may not be American. (this might be too easy now, but the greater difficulty would be determining which works these are)

g15- a score by a somewhat cutting-edge composer. I have the piece on CD, but i just want to hear someone guess who the composer is first, since most of you might not actually have the recording of this piece.

g11 and g12 are the same composer. g11 isn't John Cage, but has taken inspiration from him, and he may not be American. (this might be too easy now, but the greater difficulty would be determining which works these are)

g15- a score by a somewhat cutting-edge composer. I have the piece on CD, but i just want to hear someone guess who the composer is first, since most of you might not actually have the recording of this piece.

g19- some more kick-butt music, look at the A B C D layout. The orchestra is arranged in a novel way, i won't go any further

g20- g19 and g20 are by the same composer. This piece, which I LOVE was written the year i was born, it's like it was written just for me

more clues:g11 and g12- this composer is Asiang15- this composer is Germang17- just think of THE spectral composers, the ones who started it. Think of the succesful spectral pieces and take some guessesg19 and g20- one of my VERY favorite composers (now that i said that, you should know who he is). The trick now is to guess which works they are. i gave you 1987, one should be really easy

Manuel3 - Every upper-intermediate violinist plays this concerto at least once in his life. I suppose that's an important reason for serious violinists not to perform it as a concert piece.If you explore Nathan Milstein's lineage (which leads to Tartini), you will find this violinist-composer, eventually.

Luke - am a bit stumped on the cello concerto (or concertante work) - remember not all of us mere mortals have your awesome score reading abilities and score knowledge. Will keep thinking (though I have an inkling)...

Chor Anglais concertante work - only two pieces I can think of are both programmatic - Kernis' Coloured field, and MacMillan's The World's Ransoming.

Am keen to find out what no. 54 is!

(am thinking of trying to track down the scores of the three most difficult cello concerti that I have come accross - all of them are worth it I think - a project for the Cambridge library - though I suppose you might start guessing already!)

Luke - pieces for cello and orchestra, which include references to other works (including titular references) - I can only think of a few - Murill Cello concerto no.2 "Song of the Birds", Vaughan Williams' Fantasia on Sussex theme tunes, Schoenberg's concerto based on Monn's keyboard concerto, Foulds concerto on themes by Corelli (lost and unrecorded), Cassado concerto based on themes from Tchaikovsky's piano music, Denisov - Death is a Long Sleep - Variations on a canon by Haydn. Its none of the first four, definitely. I don't really think its any of these, but if I had to suggest one it would be the Denisov. Stab in the dark though.

They are literally all the one's that I can think of with names that have titular reference to other works, and that seemed the most likely one based on the harmony (although even then, hmm...) - the first three I own scores to so I know its not them, and the Cassado is so obscure that I doubt its that (and its not Tchaikovskian harmony).

They are literally all the one's that I can think of with names that have titular reference to other works, and that seemed the most likely one based on the harmony (although even then, hmm...) - the first three I own scores to so I know its not them, and the Cassado is so obscure that I doubt its that (and its not Tchaikovskian harmony).

hmmm.....

It's none of the ones you mentioned, sorry.

Anyway, want more clues?

50 - as I say, the language is a big clue, as is the metre (or the implications of the metre) I think name of composer and, in the most basic way, type of piece, would be enough here

51 - Mark has spotted that this piece, especially, I will say, this quoted part, is largely based around the Hussite chorale ‘Ye who are the warriors of God’, a piece quoted famously and obsessively by Smetana in Tabor and Blanik (Ma Vlast) and later by e.g. Suk (Praga) and Janacek (Mr Broucek) - it is a symbol of Czech pride and defiance. It is certainly that in this piece. Larry thought the melody line looked vocal, and whilst this is not correct, it is possible to imagine this line as a setting of some kind of defiant text, deliberately and necessarily rendered dumb by being played instrumentally. This, though, is pure symbolic speculation on my part and has no grounds in fact. It might help to guide you towards the composer and the piece, however.

52 - This is the one about which I said:

Quote

The composer of this piece is at the same time a much less famous composer than any of those you mentioned, and much more famous

Understandably, Larry took this to mean that he is/was better known as a musician in another field than as a composer. In fact, though, it goes further than that: he is better known as something other than a musician at all, though throughout his life, and despite his prolific creativity in his higher profile career, he continued to think of himself as a composer above all else, and to value music above the other arts despite his profound working knowledge in other areas. His career is inevitably linked with Beethoven’s Ninth, amongst other works.

53 - The text here is clear; so, I assume is the nationality of the composer and, perhaps, the period from which this piece dates. This, added to the fact that I have called this composer a major figure - which he surely is - should limit the possibilities somewhat. Remember that this piece is unrecorded, but it is far from unmentioned online.

54 - this is the sensuously beautiful one, which I realise may be no clue at all. You see a reference to a certain number of soloists in the middle of the score, playing certain types of instruments; this knowledge alone could tell you for whom the piece was written. This, I think, is also one of those scores where the publisher and thus the composer are fairly evident.

55 - This is from the middle movement (of five) of a too-little-known (though hardly unknown) masterpiece of late Romanticism. A quite wonderful and very suggestive piece, in fact, typical of its composer but a little less convoluted and more fantastically alive than some of his similarly-scored works, IMO, great though those are also. This movement is for a much reduced orchestra - just six solo players, for the most part, until the last bars. I have mentioned this composer’s name in this thread.

56 - The one Guido should know (in fact, he does know it, I think). Again, the publisher is fairly clear. Sometimes this composer’s notation strikes me as a little ‘messy’, as indeed it does a little on this page, but that is part of his style. Like no 54, this is an unremittingly beautiful work - almost too much so, possibly.

57 - Scored for a fairly standard orchestra, but in a typically glittering fashion; this composer is well-known for his short, dazzling orchestral pieces. This is one of the (slightly) less well-known ones, but even so is recognised as a mini-masterpiece, as indeed are many of this composer’s pieces. If you can isolate the composer and the possible work, the wind figuration should give a little hint.

58 - Larry’s almost got this one: a male part song by Schoenberg. The voices are ‘just’ engaged in childish impressions of drums etc., as they are throughout much of this song.

oh yeah. Duh! I thought of the Farewell to Philosophy, but didn't see the titular connection (of course it's to two of Haydn's Symphonies). Wouldn't have recognised the score though! The too beautiful thing was a massive clue of course!

Certainly was - to clarify, this is a page from late in Gavin Bryars' Cello Concerto 'Farewell to Philosophy', whose title refers to those two Haydn symphonies, The Farewell and The Philosopher. The page shown, with its paired horns and oboe/cor anglais over padding strings is making reference to the latter work; the orchestral 'thinning-out' at the end of the piece refers to the former one.

I'm going to bed in a minute, but before I go I might as well put up a few more samples I've prepared this evening (quite low quality,these ones, I'm afraid). And then that will do from me for a few days, I hope, though I have more in mind if we get that far.

LO 59 and LO 60 go together; they are not by the same composer, though they both look very similar to another composer, which is significant

66 is Strauss, but I won't ask you which opera since it isn't one. I will say, however, that this isn't a vocal score (despite the 'pizz' marking, which I suppose is just there to help the pianist imagine the desired sound). Big clues there.

Have we all run out of steam for this game? can we at least wrap up the ones left unidentified?

I certainly haven't - I was worrying everyone else had lost enthusiasm!

There are quite a few left to guess of mine, and I have more I'd love to post, too, though seeing this great thread slip down the board I haven't had the heart to prepare them yet.

For me, the whole point of this game, apart from the 'thrill of the chase' ( ;D ) is the fascinating corners of the repertoire it takes me too - places I wouldn't normally have thought of going, perhaps. Among my ongoing crop of scores-to-be-guessed are a few that I think are really interesting, as, I hope, would be others I might post in the future. And personally, I want to have more to work at from other people too, as I'm craving more musical detective work! I never got into crosswords etc. - perhaps this is the musician's equivalent!

Greg, of your remaining numbers, I simply don't have a clue. ??? Give us a few more hints.

Have we all run out of steam for this game? can we at least wrap up the ones left unidentified?

I'm currently in Vilnius, and on a VERY slow dial up connection (graphics practically don't load at all ::)), so I won't be participating for a while (almost until the end of September). At least I don't think so. ;D

OK, in the hope to give the thread a little kick-start, some more give-away clues to my remaining ones (italics = correctly guessed):

No 44 - we’ve established that this is a piece of French organ music, by a specialist organ composer. I’ll add that he is one of those much-lamented ‘died-too-soon’ composers, killed in action in WWII. As a give-away clue I’ll also add that his youngest sister went on to become a famous organist in her own right. This composer’s output is small, and this is one of his larger works. As you can see, the melodic writing shows the influence of Eastern musics, though this is not one of his pieces (there are some) with an ‘Eastern’ title.

No 50 - evidently the different script gives the game away that this piece originates somewhere relatively unusual. There are not an enormous number of well-known composers from this country, and still fewer when one discounts ‘Soviet’-type composers. The composer of this piece is usually seen as the father of classical music in his country; he was the first non-European admitted into the International Music Society, of which he was a founder. This piece comes from a collection simply called ‘Dances’

No 51 - Mark correctly guessed that this piece is Czech, from the inclusion of the Hussite Chorale; I’ve added that the defiant spirit of that Chorale is important in this piece, which comes from a time of repression and was written by a composer certainly to be counted among the most repressed. He was Janacek’s finest pupil, and really his only follower, stylistically, though his music has it own individual voice too.

No 52 - this is the one written by a composer better-known for something else - music was only really a hobby for him, though he saw himself as fundamentally a composer. As I said, to the general public his name is somewhat associated with Beethoven’s Ninth, Rossini’s William Tell overture and various other pieces of classical music. His life was riddled with quotable bits of trivia - culling a few: he gave the eulogy at Benny Hill’s funeral; attacked by muggers in NYC he fended them off with a swordstick; he considered the composer Derek Bourgeois to be his alter-ego etc. etc. etc. He wrote a screenplay for a Bond film, which has been given the following synopsis:

Quote

It revolved around an organisation called CHAOS (Consortium for the Hastening of the Annihilation of Organised Society). CHAOS has accumulated enough money to achieve its plans and is now concentrating on power for its own sake. It blackmails international figures into humiliating themselves by terrorism. During the proposed opening sequence, an airliner full of passengers is exploded as it takes off, CHAOS's response to the Pope’s refusal to personally whitewash the Sistine Chapel. Bond discovers a plot to implant 'micro-nukes' in appendectomy patients, the aim being to blow up Sydney Opera House during a visit by international royals and presidents (this atrocity being in response to the US President's refusal to masturbate on live TV)

Strangely enough, a different plot was chosen for the final film. He is, to put it mildly, eminently quotable, and it would be easy and fun to spend all day unearthing gems, but I suppose I should plough on.

No 53 - as I said, an early, unrecorded work by a major composer. The text, as you can see, is from the Corpus Christi Carol, set by, among others, Britten, though this is evidently not him. The title of this text might help you with the title of this piece, however.

No 54 - This composer has already had a piece on this thread. This one, if you can’t see, is a piece for five percussionist and orchestra; I already gave the clue that you could think who these five percussionists are - the answer is Nexus, who commissioned and gave the premiere of this piece. Though one would imagine this piece to be quite obscure, it was recorded by the BBC and released as part of a free BBC Music Magazine CD, and when I’m trawling charity shops for CDs, I see this issue more than almost any other. So it seems that this piece (or its coupling, the Walton 1st Symph) isn’t to general tastes. Which is a shame, as it makes an utterly beautiful sound, though not, I think, amongst its composer’s finest works, formally.

No 55 - If I say this composer was the son-in-law of an even more famous composer, will that be saying too much?

No 57 - The main truism about this composer is that he could have been even more successful had he not been lazy. He is essentially a composer of exquisite miniatures, whether for solo piano or for orchestra, the latter often using folk tunes or folk tales as a starting point (as indeed is the case in this example). In some respects (and only some) he is comparable to the early, Chopinesque Scriabin - fondness for extreme key signatures, tiny wraithlike piano pieces (often Preludes, a la Scriabin) etc.

No 58 - Larry’s nearly got this - a male voice piece by Schoenberg; surely a little searching will reveal the title. It’s an awesome work, in its own way.

No 59 and 60 - These two pieces are by different composers, but both bear an extremely strong relationship to the style of a composer of the preceding generation. Usually we would be right to see this as plagiarism, but in these cases there is particularly good reason for the likeness. Neither composer ever developed far beyond this phase of ……….esque music, because, for different reasons, both stopped composing before their styles became fully personal. The two pieces also share the same title, a generic title common to their model, and also to his model.No 61 - A piece by this well-known composer has already been used on this thread. Strangely enough, it took longer to guess than most, even though the piece it came from is much-recorded and pretty famous. This present piece is nothing like it, stylistically, looking more like Medtner, I suppose, than the common view of this composer, but it is actually just as typical of him.

No 62 - An extremely prolific, well-known composer. The harmonic nature of the big pile-up of chords in the centre of the page reveal a technique of which this composer was an early and famous exponent (he is really the textbook example, I suppose). The work itself is simply a non-programmatic piece in a standard form.

No 63 - Look at the melody line carefully: you will almost certainly know it; on line 3 it transfers itself to the top of the left hand

No 64 - Look at the melody line…..no, just kidding. This is quite a notorious piece, partly just for the look of it. It’s one of the earlier ‘complexity’ works, and still one of the most breathtaking to look at, and, indeed, in its bold, no-holds-barred conception. The composer has already been used as an example on this thread; you might be able to recognise the handwriting, though it’s somewhat messier and more spindly on this score.

No 65 - we’ve had Chopin, Szymanowski and Scriabin as guesses for this piece, and its true composer is every bit as well known as them, though this piece is practically unknown. There is a melodic similarity to one of this composer’s much more famous works, in line four especially.No 67 - The wandering chordal progressions in this piece are very typical of this composer, a man who once informed a woman that he was breaking off their relationship by asking the police to set a guard on his house to keep her away. He also had two grand pianos, one on top of the other, neither of which he used for composing (and the top one of which he used to store unsolicited post). He was also the head of the Metropolitan Church of Art of Jesus the Conductor.

And here, just to start things off neatly, I repost again the fully-hyperlinked list as-it-stands:

g11, g12- a Japanese composer wrote these. Don't think too hard. Do a little internet searching, you might find them online (that's where i found them).g15- this is by a German composer who is the 2009 judge for the composing competition of the composer of g11/g12. Once you find out who this is, do a google image search and you might find the scoreg17- who are the 2 "founders" of spectral music? the initials of the title of the whole work is "LEA" (in French), and it's composed by one of these two (it's a very long work, btw)

g11, g12- a Japanese composer wrote these. Don't think too hard. Do a little internet searching, you might find them online (that's where i found them).g15- this is by a German composer who is the 2009 judge for the composing competition of the composer of g11/g12. Once you find out who this is, do a google image search and you might find the scoreg17- who are the 2 "founders" of spectral music? the initials of the title of the whole work is "LEA" (in French), and it's composed by one of these two (it's a very long work, btw)

Ah, so 17 is Les Espaces Acoustiques by Grisey, I assume? (the thing about the founders of spectral music is confusing, mind you, as that very much depends on who you read and what you think of as spectral!)

I'll think about the others in a minute - I think a pupil is coming.....

Yes, I think so. If I got involved, I'd probably find it nearly as addictive as I found/am finding (which tense is correct?) this thread.* So waiting for downloads etc would be a real pain.

*possibly slightly less as I find scores visually fascinating to ponder over - potential clues lurk in so many facets of the image (musical style, handwriting, instrumentation, print style....). You can look at leisure, take your time to examine small details, zoom in and out, compare other scores.... whereas listening to clips is a somewhat more frustrating exercise in this respect, as it basically involves playing and replaying and perhaps hunting for particular sections of the music over and over. Just my personal taste, of course.

And of course these three guesses are correct. I told you my clues made these easy (in the case of the Burgess and the Satie, lots of silly trivia to point you in the right direction for a little Googling etc.), because I want them to be found quickly - they've been hanging around for far too long. Which is why I've been surprised they haven't been guessed yet.

And don't forget my clue - just look at the tune, which ought to be deep in your blood. At the top of the page it is in the top voice, but we join it halfway through. It changes to the top of the left hand on the third line, and at this point you can see the beginning of the tune again.

Well, it seems I'm a bit stuck. Nos. 63-65 I find the most annoying... >:( Let's see if the night brings any illumination... ::)

Well, let me see how I can help...

63 - what more can I say: it has a very well-known theme which I have pointed out to you, though the theme may not be familiar in this treatment.

64 - like I said, a composer already used on this thread. What school/style of music would you file this under? Therefore, which composer must it be? What notorious (and relatively early) piece could it be? Another composer, equally or more well-known, and belonging to the same school, wrote a typically dense analysis of this piece which is very interesting. This score can be found online, as you can see, but not at IMSLP.

65 - an extremely well-known composer (we're talking 'world's greatest composers' famous), but a little-known piece, not included in any collections I've seen of his. The composer is who it sounds like, and again I point you to line 4 in particular for a point where he almost quotes another of his pieces (much better-known) for the same instrument. (I'm not being obscure here - that instrument is the piano!)

63 - what more can I say: it has a very well-known theme which I have pointed out to you, though the theme may not be familiar in this treatment.

64 - like I said, a composer already used on this thread. What school/style of music would you file this under? Therefore, which composer must it be? What notorious (and relatively early) piece could it be? Another composer, equally or more well-known, and belonging to the same school, wrote a typically dense analysis of this piece which is very interesting. This score can be found online, as you can see, but not at IMSLP.

65 - an extremely well-known composer (we're talking 'world's greatest composers' famous), but a little-known piece, not included in any collections I've seen of his. The composer is who it sounds like, and again I point you to line 4 in particular for a point where he almost quotes another of his pieces (much better-known) for the same instrument. (I'm not being obscure here - that instrument is the piano!)

So thought I could take a stab at these, but to no luck. Thought 63 might be one of the Brahms variations given the polyrhythms, 64 is a Ferneyhough piece - Sonatas for String Quartet or the 2nd SQ perhaps? Thought 65 was Debussy or perhaps Ravel, but struck out there

So thought I could take a stab at these, but to no luck. Thought 63 might be one of the Brahms variations given the polyrhythms, 64 is a Ferneyhough piece - Sonatas for String Quartet or the 2nd SQ perhaps? Thought 65 was Debussy or perhaps Ravel, but struck out there

63 isn't Brahms - I chose a page where the melody is clear, but actually on preceding pages the polyrhythms here are exceeded in complexity. It is really a stunning little jewel of a piece, one of my favourite from the set it is drawn from (another mini clue)

64 isn't Ferneyhough, though you are right in that is it is clearly 'New Complexity'. I said that a composer possibly even better-known than the composer of this piece had written an analysis of it - and that analyst-composer is Ferneyhough This piece is actually a good deal more improbably complex and less rationally notated than any Ferneyhough piece for piano, which is the instrument for which it is written. You are forgiven for thinking it was a Quartet, however! (FWIW, the Ferneyhough Sonatas for String Quartet are a much simpler score than this - scarcely a nested tuplet in sight, in fact, though still complexity enough to make most ensembles cower in their boots)

[edit] ah - I see matticus has just correctly identified this piece, making the above superfluous! Yes, it's Finnissy's ne plus ultra, Song 9.

65, believe it or not, is one of Debussy or Ravel - well done! In both cases, we tend to think that their complete piano works can be fairly neatly sewn up, but actually both composers have odd little miniatures like this one floating around which are almost unknown.

Don't forget, though, there are more than these three remaining - take a look on page 42 for the full list plus clues.

I felt it could be Ravel all along but I'm almost certain I know all of Ravel's piano solo music. So, even though it looks and sounds more like Ravel to me, I'm voting for Debussy. (Besides, the "quote" thing seems to be pointing to Debussy. I think. ;D)

and yes, Maciek, it is Debussy. The 'quote' (no such thing really, it's just a similarity) being from La plus que lente, to my eyes.

Yes, La plus que lente is what I see there too. And I think something else too - but now I can't remember what it was and don't see it anymore. Hopefully it will come back. Quite a surprise though, to see lean textures like these in Debussy - and such an easy piece...! ;D

Yes, La plus que lente is what I see there too. And I think something else too - but now I can't remember what it was and don't see it anymore. Hopefully it will come back. Quite a surprise though, to see lean textures like these in Debussy - and such an easy piece...! ;D

Well, amongst those other lesser Debussy piano pieces there's the tragic, late Elegie, which is similarly spare. And of course, slightly better known, there's the Berceuse Heroique, and the Hommage to Haydn, mature miniature masterpieces both. Also a Morceau de Concours which is interesting, a sort of mix of whole tone fanfares and Minstrels-like gruppeti. This piece, then, is none of these, which may help!

I need to get a recording of this piece - it is the big gap in my Takemitsu CD collection

Which one - From Me....or Vers l'arc-en- ciel? I used to have the latter, but not any more; I do have a copy of the former. It is in some respects about as sonically stunning and seductive as music gets, but not as tight as Takemitsu's best. As I said in an earlier post, I've seen quite a few copies of the BBC music magazine disc with this piece on knocking around in various charity shops (i.e. here in the UK) - unfortunately, it seems to be one which people get rid of! I'll try to remember to pick it up for you next time I see it.

OK, I have quite a few left, but it seems that no one wants to guess at them at the moment - I must say I'm quite surprised, as I'd have thought most of them were gettable with the clues I've given. However, I might as well give out a few more whilst waiting.

That's because it isn't Couleurs... but you've got the right composer, and the right period. This page exhibits a technique which he didn't use elsewhere AFAIK (unless it's buried in St Francois somewhere) and which otherwise is most closely associated with Schumann, of all people.

That's because it isn't Couleurs... but you've got the right composer, and the right period. This page exhibits a technique which he didn't use elsewhere AFAIK (unless it's buried in St Francois somewhere) and which otherwise is most closely associated with Schumann, of all people.

That's the one. And the unusual technique on this page is what Messiaen calls 'melodie par manques' - that is, the illusion of a melodic line is created by the notes of a chord disappearing; the memory of each note, after it is gone, is what produces the impression of melody (though Messiaen helps this along by giving each note a little crescendo before it is cut off)

Did you all really know BWV21 cantata from sight, or just guess at the ruse?

A good magician never reveals how he performs his tricks. But since I'm not much of a magician . . . .

It was obviously Bach, and the title Sinfonia meant it was obviously a cantata. So I tried to find a list of all Bach cantatas with sinfonias, which was easy, and then looked at the incipits to find a suitably mournful text. Once I had narrowed that down to a few candidates, I checked the scores, easily found the piece, and then the ruse fell into place.

Did you all really know BWV21 cantata from sight, or just guess at the ruse?

In my case, I knew it was Bach, and it looked very familiar - I knew it was on one of the more sorrowful-themed Cantata CDs I have, and I also knew that BWV 21 was the most likely. However, I wasn't thinking in terms of BWV numbers, I just had 'sense' of which work it was, without that work's actual name and number coming to mind, so I didn't notice your hidden message! I was going to go to that CD and play through the likely tracks, but Larry came up trumps first.

I couldn't find the place in the score from one listen through of the last movement, but my best guess would be Gulda's outrageous and hilarious cello concerto - instrumentation seems right too... But given that I can't find the place in the recording, I'm really not sure.

No, it isn't that. I will be delighted if this is a bit of the repertoire you don't know yet - you'll like this piece. I'll cobble together some clues later, but a brief description of the piece: movement 1 is somewhat based on Mood Indigo (it is a 'New York' piece); movement 2 is more 'west coast', with minimalist tendencies, a crazy cadenza and then this disco coda. Sounds bonkers, but its actually a very effective piece and not at all jokey to my mind.

was composer in residence at my old college, but a long time before I was there

his last piece was an 'apotheosis of the march' for brass quintet, in which the five players are called on to impersonate Margaret Thatcher, Stalin, Che Guevara, Hitler and Mao Tse Tung, using props such as hand-bag, beret, tunic, moustache....

was on a Peel Session in the late 60s (one week after the day my sister was born, so it seems, if that helps ;D ), on which he played a selection from Cage's Sonatas and Interludes

Aha - no 73 is a bit of a party piece. It isn't the Book of Elements (though that's a score I wish I had). A couple of big hints:

1) try to play it through. You will find it not hard but, strictly speaking, impossible

2) as you try to play it through, try not to accent at the barlines. Let the music speak for itself. You will probably find you know it very well indeed. The whole piece works in the way that you ought to discover, so that at the end not a stone is left unturned; the cumulative effect is, in context, rather moving, strangely enough.

EDIT: A little bit of googling, and I will gues the composer is Tim Souster. I haven't heard of him, or the cello piece.

That's some nice Googling! Correct - he's a very interesting figure, right at the heart of the Stockhausen phenomenon in the 60s and 70s, and an innovator in his own right, though this piece shows neither to any extent (also like the idea of him performing on Peel). The name of the piece shouldn't be too hard to find.

Nice to know I've got a quality cello+ensemble piece you don't know, Guido - there aren't too many of them around! To keep up your appetite, here's a low quality sample of the end of the last movement, including the page which I used for my example. I've started at the end of the 'minimalist' section; the music breaks off abruptly into a series of tongue-in-cheek, gestural, avant-garde poses, before momentum builds up (over ostinati on Morrocan pottery drums). This too breaks off into the Donna Summer-inspired 'Disco coda'.

I gave big clues to all my left-overs a while ago, and whilst some were found, I'm very conscious of having some last dregs remaining. I'm not sure if everyone's seen those clues, so here they are again, with even more information added in places.

44 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3125.msg78068.html#msg78068) - we’ve established that this is a piece of French organ music, by a specialist organ composer. I’ll add that he is one of those much-lamented ‘died-too-soon’ composers, killed in action in WWII. As a give-away clue I’ll also add that his youngest sister went on to become a famous organist in her own right. This composer’s output is small, and this is one of his larger works. As you can see, the melodic writing shows the influence of Eastern musics, though this is not one of his pieces (there are some) with an ‘Eastern’ title. I don't think I can give more clues than this.

53 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3125.msg79947.html#msg79947) - as I said, an early, unrecorded work by a major composer. The text, as you can see, is from the Corpus Christi Carol, set by, among others, Britten, though this is evidently not him. The title of this text might help you with the title of this piece, however. The piece is English, though I hope that is evident and dates, IIRC, from the 50s

55 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3125.msg79949.html#msg79949) - If I say this composer was the son-in-law of an even more famous composer, will that be saying too much? Well, he was, the junior partner of possibly the best-known father/son-in-law parternship in composition; his most famous work is in part a memorial to his father-in-law, and in part a memorial to his wife. This example isn't from that work, but from a slightly later, and very wonderful piece. It is taken from the third movement, and the instrumentation in that movement is much reduced from that in the rest of the piece.

57 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3125.msg79952.html#msg79952) - The main truism about this composer is that he could have been even more successful had he not been lazy. He is essentially a composer of exquisite miniatures, whether for solo piano or for orchestra, the latter often using folk tunes or folk tales as a starting point (as indeed is the case in this example). In some respects (and only some) he is comparable to the early, Chopinesque Scriabin - fondness for extreme key signatures, tiny wraithlike piano pieces (often Preludes, a la Scriabin) etc. An extra couple of clues - he is Russian, and a year off being an exact contemporary of my favourite composer.

58 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3125.msg79953.html#msg79953) - Larry’s nearly got this - a male voice piece by Schoenberg; surely a little searching will reveal the title. It’s an awesome work, in its own way.

59 and 60 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3125.msg80539.html#msg80539) - These two pieces are by different composers, but both bear an extremely strong relationship to the style of a composer of the preceding generation. Usually we would be right to see this as plagiarism, but in these cases there is particularly good reason for the likeness. Neither composer ever developed far beyond this phase of ……….esque music, because, for different reasons, both stopped composing before their styles became fully personal. The two pieces also share the same title, a generic title common to their model, and also to his model. Extra clue - the 'model' I am talking had extreme religious delusions, but, at the height of his God-complex he died of a boil on the lip.

62 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3125.msg80540.html#msg80540) - An extremely prolific, well-known composer. The harmonic nature of the big pile-up of chords in the centre of the page reveal a technique of which this composer was an early and famous exponent (he is really the textbook example, I suppose). The work itself is simply a non-programmatic piece in a standard form.

63 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3125.msg80540.html#msg80540) - Look at the melody line carefully: you will almost certainly know it; on line 3 it transfers itself to the top of the left hand. Extra clue - the melody you are looking for is by another composer than the composer of this work (i.e. the work is based on another piece); also, that earlier piece is by a Polish composer.

65 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3125.msg80541.html#msg80541) - a little-known piano piece by Debussy, it has been determined. Remember where the best collections of scores online are to be found and root around....

57 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3125.msg79952.html#msg79952) -An extra couple of clues - he is Russian, and a year off being an exact contemporary of my favourite composer.

55 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3125.msg79949.html#msg79949) - If I say this composer was the son-in-law of an even more famous composer, will that be saying too much? Well, he was, the junior partner of possibly the best-known father/son-in-law parternship in composition; his most famous work is in part a memorial to his father-in-law, and in part a memorial to his wife. This example isn't from that work, but from a slightly later, and very wonderful piece. It is taken from the third movement, and the instrumentation in that movement is much reduced from that in the rest of the piece.

57 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3125.msg79952.html#msg79952) - The main truism about this composer is that he could have been even more successful had he not been lazy. He is essentially a composer of exquisite miniatures, whether for solo piano or for orchestra, the latter often using folk tunes or folk tales as a starting point (as indeed is the case in this example). In some respects (and only some) he is comparable to the early, Chopinesque Scriabin - fondness for extreme key signatures, tiny wraithlike piano pieces (often Preludes, a la Scriabin) etc. An extra couple of clues - he is Russian, and a year off being an exact contemporary of my favourite composer.

Based on these clues, it sounds like Suk and Liadov. I apologize for being too lazy to check to see if anyone has guessed these composers yet. Of course I have no ideas about the identity of the pieces.

63 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3125.msg80540.html#msg80540) - Look at the melody line carefully: you will almost certainly know it; on line 3 it transfers itself to the top of the left hand. Extra clue - the melody you are looking for is by another composer than the composer of this work (i.e. the work is based on another piece); also, that earlier piece is by a Polish composer.

Argh! This is so irritating! >:( I wish there was some way I could drag over my monitor to the piano so I could actually really hear what this sounds like... I'll just go and leaf through my Chopin scores to see if he's guilty of being the prototype... ::)

OK, believe it or not but I had no idea Godowsky's transcriptions were such an enormously thick volume (re the first clue you gave us) - that really had me searching in the wrong direction. Plus, of course, the Chopin's Studies happened to be one of the last volumes I leafed through - and you deliberately chose the LAST ONE! Argh! ;) (I actually suspected some sort of foul play, and went for all the odd meters first... ::))

MM11MM11 is one of the most beautiful pieces of contemporary music I've heard recently - I was a bit obsessed with it for a while recently. It is played extremely slowly (this is page four of the score, and it begins past the fourth minute of the piece!). The piece quotes a certain composition by a certain very, very famous composer extensively. MM11 is one in a series, all written using a similar "technique".(http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/8/25/1381505/GMG%20score%20quiz/MM11.jpg)

MM12This is not my favorite piece by this composer but I've come to appreciate it much more recently. And it is certainly the most interesting of his scores that I've seen. If you've ever heard the piece it won't take you a minute to recognize the sung melody noted in the middle of the page. Incidentally, the composer of MM13 has also written a large piece which has a section with very similar melodic elements (at least to my ear). I think they both quoted from the same (folk) material but am not sure.(http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/8/25/1381505/GMG%20score%20quiz/MM12.jpg)

MM13This piece contains lots of minuscule quotes from a certain composer, most of them difficult to notice at first. One especially blatant one is the last couple of notes before the strings come in... The quotes won't lead you to the composer or title of this piece straight away but at least you'll get a hint at the subtitle of it. :P(http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/8/25/1381505/GMG%20score%20quiz/MM13.jpg)

MM14I've left a major clue here so I don't think any comment will be necessary.(http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/8/25/1381505/GMG%20score%20quiz/MM14.jpg)

MM15What you may take to be some sort of lead here, may in fact turn out to be very misleading... How's that for a cryptic clue? ;D(http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/8/25/1381505/GMG%20score%20quiz/MM15.jpg)OK, a bit more: young composer. I'm not really that much of a fan, and this piece isn't exactly a masterpiece - but I love the way it manages to look relatively simple while it is at times very complex rhythmically (well, perhaps not on this page...).

OK, believe it or not but I had no idea Godowsky's transcriptions were such an enormously thick volume (re the first clue you gave us) - that really had me searching in the wrong direction. Plus, of course, the Chopin's Studies happened to be one of the last volumes I leafed through - and you deliberately chose the LAST ONE! Argh! ;) (I actually suspected some sort of foul play, and went for all the odd meters first... ::))

If I'll be playing through anything at all this week - it will most certainly have to be the original of this one! 8)

Yes, this is it of course - obvious in retrospect, isn't it?

Actually, I think this first version is a lot harder than the left hand only one, and also, obviously, much more sophisticated - one of the finest of the whole set. Godowsky's elaborations are often maligned, but there are a good handful of them that are really stunning reimaginings of the originals, and this is one of them. Hamelin calls this one

Quote from: Hamelin

a true marvel....four hyperflorid, beautifully complex variations [e.g. 3 against 4 against 6 against 9] all totally different in their rhythmic intricacies - the closest relative to this transcription....is Henry Cowell's short piano piece Fabric. Godowsky's level of inspiration reaches new heights in this setting, especially in the last section [my sample page] where a gorgeous countermelody soars above the main music.

[Edit: I've added a link to MM18 and MM20, so you can download it and see it full size - just click on the image to do that.]

MM16Relatively famous where I live... And the text is massively famous. (Nice choice of adverb, don't you think?)(http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/8/25/1381505/GMG%20score%20quiz/MM16.jpg)

MM17This contemporary composer is quite well known. He isn't very prolific, and not all of his pieces are top shelf material. This one, IMHO, happens to be one of the more effective ones, even if the effect is reached through the use of a very stripped down technique. This is one of the more striking pages (it may not look striking but in its context it does sound quite striking, especially with a good vocalist).(http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/8/25/1381505/GMG%20score%20quiz/MM17.jpg)

MM18You'll notice there's a quote here right away. But I'm not sure if recognizing that will lead you any closer to the answer - unless, of course, you know the piece. It happens to be the last thing this composer ever wrote. And perhaps his best composition (IMO).(http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/8/25/1381505/GMG%20score%20quiz/MM18.jpg) (http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/8/25/1381505/GMG%20score%20quiz/MM18.jpg)

MM19I have come to believe that cycle might be the composer's very best work, even if it isn't as celebrated as many of his other pieces.(http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/8/25/1381505/GMG%20score%20quiz/MM19.jpg)

MM20I believe this page is proof that this composer still had it in him, despite the fact that most of his output at the time he composed this was rather mediocre. It is sometimes thought that the reason for that was the quite traditional style he chose to employ but this piece (and a few others) show that he was in fact capable of writing quite effective stuff as long as he kept it short. :P Not a masterpiece perhaps but an enjoyable entry into the choral repertoire.(http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/8/25/1381505/GMG%20score%20quiz/MM20.jpg) (http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/8/25/1381505/GMG%20score%20quiz/MM20.jpg)

Actually, I think this first version is a lot harder than the left hand only one, and also, obviously, much more sophisticated - one of the finest of the whole set. Godowsky's elaborations are often maligned, but there are a good handful of them that are really stunning reimaginings of the originals, and this is one of them.

MM25One of the very few "serious" piano pieces by this composer that is easy enough for me to play. And an especially beautiful one, IMO. (Strange. I feel as if I had already used that phrase today...)(http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/8/25/1381505/GMG%20score%20quiz/MM25.jpg)

MM26Oh, I just couldn't resist it...(http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/8/25/1381505/GMG%20score%20quiz/MM26.jpg)

That l.h. part reminded of l.h. parts in other Ives works (Three Page Sonata, IIRC), even though the rest of the piece is somewhat simpler than one would expect from an Ives score, so I tried lesser-known Ives first, and luckily hit the answer (I think). Though, typically for Ives, the performance on my CD didn't entirely match Maciek's score - it had the odd restrained but Concord Sonata-like accretion!

That l.h. part reminded of l.h. parts in other Ives works (Three Page Sonata, IIRC), even though the rest of the piece is somewhat simpler than one would expect from an Ives score, so I tried lesser-known Ives first, and luckily hit the answer (I think). Though, typically for Ives, the performance on my CD didn't entirely match Maciek's score - it had the odd restrained but Concord Sonata-like accretion!

No need for apprehension - you are correct, as always! I chose it because it seems to be the only Ives score I own (and I own next to none :P) that I can (almost) play. ;D

Good morning - I got very tired last night and had to give up in the middle of guessing. A couple more, I think: is no 16 by Moniuszko (the title of song being the first line of the text: Od dworu, spod lasa)? And no 26 never loaded beyond the tempo indication last night - I thought it was some kind of obscure joke! But now I can see the whole thing: it is the opening of the first movement of Zarebski's Les Roses et Les Epines, op 13. A very fine piece.

Good morning - I got very tired last night and had to give up in the middle of guessing. A couple more, I think: is no 16 by Moniuszko (the title of song being the first line of the text: Od dworu, spod lasa)?

Well, I can see how you got to that answer ((http://www.google.com/favicon.ico) ;D) but it's only partially correct... It is a ballade by Moniuszko (not one of the 3 or 4 most famous ones though) and it is sometimes (if rarely) referred to by the first words of the text but the title is in fact different. It is the same as that of the poem - so discovering it shouldn't be all that difficult.

Quote

And no 26 never loaded beyond the tempo indication last night - I thought it was some kind of obscure joke!

Me and obscure jokes? Come on! Obscure - perhaps. Jokes - never! ;D

Quote

But now I can see the whole thing: it is the opening of the first movement of Zarebski's Les Roses et Les Epines, op 13. A very fine piece.

Well, I can see how you got to that answer ((http://www.google.com/favicon.ico) ;D) but it's only partially correct... It is a ballade by Moniuszko (not one of the 3 or 4 most famous ones though) and it is sometimes (if rarely) referred to by the first words of the text but the title is in fact different. It is the same as that of the poem - so discovering it shouldn't be all that difficult.

2 of the composers are women. The names of both female composer start with the same letter! :o

These composers come from 3 different countries. One of the composers is American, all the rest are Europeans.

All of the composers are contemporary. ::)

Except for one, all of the composers can safely be called famous - meaning that they are considered to be among the very best contemporary composers of their respective countries. If very hard pressed I would unwillingly cross out one more - but the remaining 6 really are among the strictly selected creme de la creme.

Except for one, all of the composers are alive today.

Two of the composers have already had their scores featured here, and the name of one more has appeared in the (incorrect) guesses.

Three of the composers have threads dedicated to them on GMG.

OK, I know these clues are vague but we have to start with something... ;D If there's any need for that ::), I'll become more specific later. Also, note that there are clues right next to the scores as well! (This might be a good time to admit that at least one of those is so highly subjective, it might even be misleading. :-\)

OK, some more. I've got loads, actually - Maciek said I'd nearly done 100, and I hadn't, but I may get that far today! Let's see how far I manage to get....

No 77 - a very famous composer we've already had on this thread. He's often somewhat maligned on this board, but in this, one of his finest works, and actually a really visionary work, we see that he was capable of great things.

No 78 - remember those two of mine - 59 and 60 - which I said were, for good reason, closely related in style to an older and better known composer? No one's got them yet, which surprises me. Anyway, the composer of this no 78 too is often said to resemble that same older composer (quite an influential figure!), but in this case the younger composer reached maturity and was able to carve out his own stylistic world.

Edit - in post 1000 Greg guessed this one to be Scriabin; it isn't, but as I said in post 1001, he is that elusive model I've talked about. Which, as I've said, relates back to numbers 59 and 60 too. A big clue, in fact.

Back to this one - if you look closely (bottom line), you will see a notational rarity which I personally have only seen in the music of this composer and in the theoretical writings of Riemann, though it probably exists elsewhere too.

The composer's name is the point here, rather than the piece's title, which is generic.

No 83 - a piece I have invariably mentioned when the thread 'most mournful/depressing etc. piece of music' comes round as it inevitably does. I've never heard anything like this piece for bleakness - my brother-in-law, quite a seasoned explorer of weird music, was taken aback by this piece ('like sticking your head in a wind tunnel' was his description), but this final movement is something of a consolation.

No 84 - I could have chosen dozens of pages from this sparkling score, one of the finest works of the last thirty years that I know of IMO - the page where the music seems to compete with itself for ever quieter nuances*; the magical duet for low piccolo and high double bass harmonics, playing in melodic homophony.... The page I have chosen reveals the piece's link to spectralism; the composer is not a spectralist but has worked in that domain at times.

No 86 - comes from a set of pieces I have problems assessing. I adore them, but possibly because I played them a lot as a child. They seem very special to me, but are probably not. Another one for Maciek, I'd have thought - but that clue opens it up to all! ;D Yes, it is Polish!!!

No 87 - the only composer out of this bunch that I have met. Does that help? This piece is an ultra-lyrical, nostalgic concerto which makes extensive and very beautiful use of quotation from various pieces (Monteverdi to Wagner and points between). Ideas of love, distance, memory, wind and sea lie behind the piece. The piece falls into sections, each based around a particular quoted piece; each section is linked by a recurrent quotation. Towards the bottom of this page you can see both quite clearly.

You're a bloody genius. Or do you remember my posting history.....? ;)

Perhaps I shouldn't be revealing my technique but here goes:1) The print style looks exactly the same as a couple of PWM Baird scores that I own. I mean exactly.2) There's the Polish word "oddech" (breath).3) It was a bit of a shot in the dark since this is only a page - but the texture reminds me of Baird too. (Except for that strange thing happening in the piano - but the asterisk could mean anything...)

And now that you've confirmed that it's Baird, I'm assuming it has to be Erotyki. I know most of Baird's song cycles pretty well. His only other soprano and orchestra cycle is Lyrical Suite, and it can't be that - that is a tonal cycle using folk (or folk-like) material, a bit like some of Lutoslawski's early songs. And yes, I do remember you mentioning you owned that score, so now I'm pretty sure. ;D

Except that the 'strange thing' is not in the piano part - that's the timp part! :o Which of course makes it all the weirder.... [edit] on second thoughts, it is the piano part you mean - but it is the timp part which really amazes me here!

The problems continue, btw: every time I try to upload an image I get an error message 'the upload folder is full' - is this as ominous as it sounds? have we (well, mostly me) overworked the system? does this mean we need to delete some earlier images in order to have room for new ones? OTOH, the board hasn't been functioning normally recently, so perhaps there's something going on I don't know about.

78 is not Scriabin, but he is the composer that the music resembles that I talk about in my clue. Which, if you read it carefully, links back to two earlier scores of mine. Now you know the model for them, you might be able to get them too.

80 is not Ferneyhough; the handwriting is more spidery than his. But it is from the 'Complexity' school. Which narrows down the field.

Still don't know what that earlier one I got wrong could be -- my printer's out of ink and the piano's too far away to read the score off the screen >:(

Which one was that?

[edit] I think you mean my 73 - the one you thought was the Book of Elements. As I say, playing it will help, but so will my clue that playing it properly is not actually possible. Someone who writes piano pieces not playable by human hand - who does that make you think of ;D ;) ? Well, it isn't him ;D.... but it is someone closely connected to him, and the underlying principle (conflicting tempi etc.) is the same. In this piece the different tempi (all notated via tuplets within one overarching tempo) are presenting different tunes, motives etc., each of which you will surely recognise. All these clues together, and a bare minimum of searching, should provide you with the answer.

Thanks to Rob's vigilance, I've been able to put nos. 81, 86 and 87 up on the previous page, so check back if you want to see them. I think my last pages must have been the straw that broke the camel's back, upload-folder-wise :-[ :-[ :-[ but thankfully Rob's been able to double its size :) :) :)

So on with the show:

No 88 - another score from which many pages could have been chosen, each revealing one of the special features of the music. The composer talked of this pieces as treating

No 91 - not my favourite work by this composer, but, it it's own way, one of the most amazing. This composer is usually linked with a particular school of composer, but the similarities are actually quite superficial. More clues on request.

No 93 - one of the blanked-out bits is the name of the composer. The other is significant, not because the figure named is famous (he isn't) but because presumably it would make googling too easy. However, there is enough here - in terms of look and musical style - to have a good guess at the composer. At which point one could try googling around the dedication to see if the guess is correct or not.

No 95 - a classic piece in early modernism and the transition to atonality. The odd-looking enharmonic notation of this page (meant to keep the canonic nature clear) is quite famous, and the expression marks are typical IMO. Should be quite straightforward.

No 96 - a piece I have mentioned elsewhere on this board. Was at one time considered the hardest piece in the piano repertoire, and though it may have been surpassed, it is still an iconic work. At the bottom of the page is a big clue. The piece is dedicated to and was premiered by a composer-pianist one of whose scores I've already posted on this thread (and the answer has been found)

No 97 - a great and quite well-known (though not as much as it should be) masterpiece by a major figure. This page contains typical fingerprints both of the composer in general and ones special to this piece AFAIK.

No 98 - The composer should be fairly obvious just from the look of the score. At first glance, this seems to be an unusually colouristic, non-motivic, page. However, after a certain date this composer began to use simple colour-points like this as motives in their own right; this and the unusual orchestration are clues as to the identity of the piece.

No 99 - this is the final variation of a set, though the piece isn't called 'Variations' except in the subtitle. The theme is pretty clear here, though you may need to play it. Once you've identified it, the composer and piece ought to become easier to find, I hope.

No 100 - those who've read my composer's thread will hopefully recognise a piece here! I have identified this piece on my thread (though possibly not since its original incarnation on the previous GMG) so there's plenty to go on here. Whilst you're looking, check out the Da Capo and other markings on the piece on the right hand page ;D

Correct, Mark. With Mahler's original sketches at the bottom of the page - this is Cooke's performing version, of course. This same passage (or the first movement version) is also referenced in my LO 13, a passage from John Adam's Harmonielehre

That's correct, Mark. The Pulitzer thing was one clue, the internal reference to another Etude was another. This particular one is called Rag infernal (Syncopes apocalytiques) :D

No 102 - a great description of this piece in one book:

Quote

[mystery piece x], with its Afro-Cuban percussion section, and a Hollywood-style finale with touches of the macabre of Shostakovich, must be one of the most banal ever written.

;DThere may be some disagreement about that, of course! The tune that stats on this page is a great little diatonic, memorable, jazzy melody typical of this composer, who had a fine melodic sense among other gifts.

No 103 - yet another for Maciek, though I hope others get it too. This piece is typical of its composer in, among other things, its formal techniques. A very Bergian example of this begins at the second bar on this page though (and this is another clue) you'd need to see the previous pages to see it properly.

No 104 - earlier on this thread I tentatively guessed at a score based on a similarity to another piece. I was wrong. But FWIW this is that piece. It is a very fine work by a very famous composer, not as well-known among his compositions as it should be.

Hey, Karl, it's Sean's thread to host, not mine. I've just rather taken over, I'm afraid! (and feel rather sheepish about it - still, I always said I was addicted to scores, and now you all know it only too well). I wonder if Sean knows what a monster he spawned.

Re. the Canticle doodad - yes, I keep forgetting about that. I've made the necessary alterations (or I think I have), but I'm unhappy with the first movement, and am letting it lie fallow for a while before I rip its heart out ;D I will get back to you, I promise.

Oh, and if as you hint you know no 101, and I'm sure you do, don't keep it to yourself! A stunning page, knocks me for six every time....[edit - sorry, brainfreeze going on here. Didn't take in the point of your 'subtract 10' - yes, it is the mad string-thing from Shostakovich 4, of course.]

Three more, then I'll stop, trust me!

No 108 - one of my favourite pieces. I was once, more than two years ago, all primed to lead a GMG discussion on this work. Had my introductory posts written and everything……I digress. This page, which comes towards the end of the piece but before its climax, exhibits most of its characteristic traits - its instrumentation, its tonal dichotomy, its metrical dichotomy, its most prominent, binding motive (here in the process of dissolving), and the end of an important figure in the vocal line.

LO93 is the Bridge Sonata. I guessed because the typesetting looks exactly like my edition of the cello sonata - surely Boosey must have printed other pieces with this typesetting, but I haven't seen them. Funny how things like that happen. Also the 'Andante ben moderato' is a direction he uses quite a lot, so that was also a clue.

Yes, and what a fine piece it is. The clarinet line and the string figure is typical Sibelius; the harp figure, which goes on for bars, is a hallmark of this particular piece, one of Sibelius's very best IMO

Is it Transit then...? I thought that seemed more likely but couldn't find this bit in my recording.

That's the one. You won't find it quite like this on the recording, because superimposed over the top of this music is the slowly-evolving 'Vocal model' which is written separately on the first page of the score. This is page three, so very near the beginning, fairly shortly after the timps come in under the voices. One of Ferneyhough's most attractive pieces, I think.

Hmm, let me think. It's not from a concerto, though this extremely famous and important composer did write concertos later on. The music bears the traces of its nationality, and when you've got that, the composer is quite obvious I think.

That's the only problem with this thread - we've all got loads, I'm sure, that have been snaffled up by someone else before we can get to them! ...looking over the list of scores I can count at least 22 that I 'could have' got! >:( ;D

After staring long, very long, and hard, hard, hard at it, just when I was about to give up (even though all along I felt I knew the "melody" played by the celesta and glockenspiel) it came to me:

Andrzej Panufnik - Autumn Music

I do have to say, the first 3 bars totally confused me, and got me looking in a totally wrong direction (Kilar? Krauze??). It didn't help that I haven't heard this piece in a very long while. All I'm saying is this: I'm very proud of myself this time, and I expect everyone to appreciate the titanic struggle I had to go through to guess this. ;D

When (and if) you ever get the Lullaby score, Luke, you absolutely have to post a snippet here. Though I suspect that one would be even more difficult to guess. Or maybe not, considering one "detail" I know about it... :-X

After staring long, very long, and hard, hard, hard at it, just when I was about to give up (even though all along I felt I knew the "melody" played by the celesta and glockenspiel) it came to me:

Andrzej Panufnik - Autumn Music

I do have to say, the first 3 bars totally confused me, and got me looking in a totally wrong direction (Kilar? Krauze??). It didn't help that I haven't heard this piece in a very long while. All I'm saying is this: I'm very proud of myself this time, and I expect everyone to appreciate the titanic struggle I had to go through to guess this. ;D

Well then, all hail Maciek etc. etc. ;D

Seriously, well done!

Those first three bars, though, are not meant to confuse. The barline between the first and second of them is the pivot on which the work turns - from that point on an enormous retrograde a la Berg begins

Those first three bars, though, are not meant to confuse. The barline between the first and second of them is the pivot on which the work turns - from that point on an enormous retrograde a la Berg begins

Seeing as my newest set are going so quickly, here are some more! In for a penny.....

no 111 - big clues here in the substance of the music. Less of a clue, though deliciously ironic when you know the subject of the piece, is the cheeky quotation from Heldenleben in the oboe part on the last bar of this example.

If you know the tonal habits of this composer, especially in his early works, of which this is one, then the key change you see at the end of the line provides another clue - this is his favourite and habitual key contrast. But if you know him that well, you will know what this piece is anyway!

112 - this piece takes another work and swathes it in layers of complex figuration and dense chromaticism. The piece it is based on is one of my very favourites, and its composer considered it his finest work; IMO this later piece too, though very strange, is utterly gorgeous, and as a pianist it is one of my favourite pieces to play.

The composer of this work has already appeared more than once on this thread.

114 - a piece which Guido ought to know ;) A beautiful, seductive and wonderfully-written work for violin and small orchestra, in a 'post tonal' (whatever that means) neo-romantic kind of vein. This composer is often known as a post-modernist, however. Whatever school he is pigeon-holed in, this is a very fine work. The centre of the piece seems to me to be based around a slightly distorted version of the subject of the D major Fugue from Book 2 of the WTC, and though I haven't read that this is intentional, I'm pretty sure, knowing the way this composer works, that it is.

2 of the composers are women. The names of both female composer start with the same letter! :o

These composers come from 3 different countries. One of the composers is American, all the rest are Europeans.

All of the composers are contemporary. ::)

Except for one, all of the composers can safely be called famous - meaning that they are considered to be among the very best contemporary composers of their respective countries. If very hard pressed I would unwillingly cross out one more - but the remaining 6 really are among the strictly selected creme de la creme.

Except for one, all of the composers are alive today.

Two of the composers have already had their scores featured here, and the name of one more has appeared in the (incorrect) guesses.

Three of the composers have threads dedicated to them on GMG.

OK, I know these clues are vague but we have to start with something... ;D If there's any need for that ::), I'll become more specific later. Also, note that there are clues right next to the scores as well! (This might be a good time to admit that at least one of those is so highly subjective, it might even be misleading. :-\)

And now I'm giving you one clue per piece but I have scrambled them, so you won't know which clue goes for which piece:

This piece was written for what is probably the most famous church in its country. The most characteristic part is the opening which has the choir recite the text of a well known prayer repetitively, in a slow crescendo, starting with a whisper. Only then does the orchestra come in. The composer is very well known, also for his film scores (the earliest of which are, IMO, the best thing this composer has written so far). We've had a score by this composer here before. (this was no. 17, guessed by Luke)

The most famous piece by this composer is based on the numbers 7 and 13.

The composer of this work is definitely the most famous living composer from this country. Almost a cult figure. This composer has developed a very peculiar brand of music which could be called folk inspired minimalism. The example comes from this composer's most famous work. It is the second part of a cycle comprised of four large works. It is scored for, among others, certain ancient folk instruments which in performance are usually substituted by their modern classical counterparts.

This is the last work this composer completed before death. The subject of the text the music is set to is death itself. This can probably be guessed if you identify the really obvious quote of an extremely famous theme. The largest work this composer ever wrote was an opera (this composer only wrote one). This composer's work seems to have been inspired by literature very often - for instance, this composer would entitle pieces by using the names of literary genres.

The title of this piece has something to do with the seasons. The subtitle, OTOH, evokes the Christian name of a certain very famous Romantic composer. The season evoked in the title is the time of the year when this Romantic composer died. The quotations in this piece are always very tiny, most of the music is newly written but in close imitation of the style, or at least spirit, of the composer being evoked. The composer of this piece has also written several other pieces evoking the work of other composers but they don't really form a cycle of any sort.

The composer of this work is very well known in his/her country. Still, AFAIK, there's only one CD dedicated solely to this composer's work, and that is a recording of a Requiem mass. This composer has written a series of pieces the titles of which reflect the composer's attitude towards the musical past. This is one of them. If you recognize the material the composer is using here (a piece by a certain very famous Romantic composer), all you'll need to do is take the generic title our composer uses for this series and fill in the blank. Of course, recognizing the material might prove a bit difficult.

This composer is known for a tendency to write overblown gigantic oratorios which drag on for hours. This composer started off as an epitome of the avantgarde in music but in later years moved to safer, "reactionary" positions. ;) The title of this untypically smaller work has something to do with angels. I have to admit I'm not sure if this hasn't been included into one of the composer's larger scores - this composer is known to sometimes do that. (this was no. 20, guessed by Luke)

This composer was born in 1965. This composer isn't exactly world famous but is very well known in a certain seaside town. The piece is for a singing pianist. The text comes from a poem by a poet probably unknown in English speaking countries. He is not even known in Poland (though a small volume of his poems came out a couple of years ago).

Cool - I’ll look through those later, though I’ve got some ideas buzzing around now….

I too come bearing clues! I'm determined that I'm not going to reveal the answers to my old remaining ones - though there's one here from early September! So ttt with my old clues. In places (bold) I’ve added new hints. I‘ve also appended clues for those of my more recent ones (not today's batch) which still remain.

44 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3125.msg78068.html#msg78068) - we’ve established that this is a piece of French organ music, by a specialist organ composer. I’ll add that he is one of those much-lamented ‘died-too-soon’ composers, killed in action in WWII. As a give-away clue I’ll also add that his youngest sister went on to become a famous organist in her own right. This composer’s output is small, and this is one of his larger works. As you can see, the melodic writing shows the influence of Eastern musics, though this is not one of his pieces (there are some) with an ‘Eastern’ title. I don't think I can give more clues than this.

53 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3125.msg79947.html#msg79947) - as I said, an early, unrecorded work by a major composer. The text, as you can see, is from the Corpus Christi Carol, set by, among others, Britten, though this is evidently not him. The title of this text might help you with the title of this piece, however. The piece is English, though I hope that is evident and dates, IIRC, from the 50s

55 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3125.msg79949.html#msg79949) - Already established - this is Suk. This example isn't from Asrael, but from a slightly later, and very wonderful piece. It is taken from the third movement, and the instrumentation in that movement is much reduced from that in the rest of the piece.

57 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3125.msg79952.html#msg79952) - Already established - this is Liadov

58 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3125.msg79953.html#msg79953) - Larry’s nearly got this - a male voice piece by Schoenberg; surely a little searching will reveal the title. It’s an awesome work, in its own way.

59 and 60 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3125.msg80539.html#msg80539) - These two pieces are by different composers, but both bear an extremely strong relationship to the style of a composer of the preceding generation. Usually we would be right to see this as plagiarism, but in these cases there is particularly good reason for the likeness. Neither composer ever developed far beyond this phase of ……….esque music, because, for different reasons, both stopped composing before their styles became fully personal. Established - the common model for both composers is Scriabin. I'll add that each had very strong, childhood, formative links to him, hence the understandable resemblance.

62 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3125.msg80540.html#msg80540) - An extremely prolific, well-known composer. The harmonic nature of the big pile-up of chords in the centre of the page reveal a technique of which this composer was an early and famous exponent (he is really the textbook example, I suppose). The work itself is simply a non-programmatic piece in a standard form.

65 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3125.msg80541.html#msg80541) - a little-known piano piece by Debussy, it has been determined. Remember where the best collections of scores online are to be found and root around.... (Greg has identified this)

69 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3125.msg90668.html#msg90668)- this is the vortex at the heart of a movement which has been called [something along the lines of] 'the greatest piece in sonata from between Beethoven and Brahms' and I won't disagree - this a breath-taking work, one which astonishes in so many different ways. The odd key is significant. The use of a single line of notes is also typical of the finely judged irony of this composer - this is the simplest sounding music of a movement with bucketloads of notes, and yet it is some of the hardest music (in an ultra-hard piece) to perform well. This example is part of a cadenza, so the irony increases. The composer was one of the three great composer pianists of the early/mid 19th century, and this is probably his finest work.

70 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3125.msg90669.html#msg90669) - As I said, the only piece I know of to use this instrumentation; wind quintet plus bass clarinet. It is youthful music written in reminiscence by an old man. Amongst other things, this composer is well-known for his use of speech-derived melodic lines, but strangely enough, this is one of the rare pieces in which we find a melody directly copied from one he heard on 'field trips' (not on this page, however) (Mark has identified this)

72 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3125.msg90673.html#msg90673) - this composer shared exactly the fate of the composer of my 51, though a few months later. He was 25. For a while he wrote under a pseudonym (Karel Vranek). He wrote a string duo in quarter tones. This movement is a set of variations on a folksong, Ta Knezdubska vez; it comes from what is probably his finest work, a piece which has been recorded several times.

73 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3125.msg90675.html#msg90675) - I've given big clues about this one - that it can't be played by human hands; that its composer isn't the obvious one to spring to mind in this connection, but is closely connected with him; that it is entirely made up of quotations from a set of very famous pieces. The unusual tuplets here do not imply 'new complexity' techniques. Instead, they are the composer's way of making possible the simultaneous and literal presentation of all these quotations at their varying intended speeds. That's why you get a whole long line of a tune in quintuplets, and a whole long line of a tune in 9's, or in 5:3's....

74 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3125.msg90676.html#msg90676) - A famous name, bandied around a lot but not much understood. I certainly don't understand him. He is famous because, quite separately of a much more widely-known figure, he developed a broadly similar compositional technique.

75 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3125.msg90681.html#msg90681) - a record-breaking composer, famous among other things for being the longest-living and longest-writing of the established composers. Most of his music is for solo piano - he was in his early days a celebrated performer and a compositional iconoclast who at the time was habitually mentioned in the same breath as Schoenberg, Stravinsky, Ravel, Bartok, Debussy.... This piece, evidently, is not, but it is often thought of as his masterpiece. The six staves you see at the bottom are all for the piano; this is a fairly extreme example of a notational procedure he used quite a lot.

77 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3125.msg93782.html#msg93782) - We’ve had one piece from this composer on this thread. He’s British, as has been established. He’s not Elgar, as has been established. But he died the same year as Elgar, which pretty much narrows him down to one of the other two famous British composer who dies that year. I think it obvious which on he is. This piece contains a part for wordless chorus , though not on this page, with its intricate rhythms.

78 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3125.msg93785.html#msg93785) - A early 20th century Scriabin-y Russian modernist, with the strange notation on the final line (I trust you’ve spotted it). Not Mosolov, the other one ;D ;)

82 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3125.msg93793.html#msg93793) - Also Russian, a 20th century set of 24 Preludes and Fugues. But not Shostakovich. A look at the rhythmical style here may help.

83 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3125.msg93796.html#msg93796) - Another Russian, one already found on this thread. This work has been recorded on ECM (Greg has identified this)

84 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3125.msg93797.html#msg93797) - semi-spectralist piece inspired by a famous Tuner painting which adorns the front of the score. British composer, the last ‘Thomas Ades’ (i.e. best ‘British composer since Britten’) before the current one (and attended the same college as Ades, which is also my old one). Ex-Messiaen pupil - OM said he had an ear as good as Mozart’s. (and Greg's also identified this)

85 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3125.msg93798.html#msg93798) - There is a complex appearance to this page - nested tuplets and jagged atonal figurations - which one doesn’t normally associate with this composer, whose most famous work is one of the great Popular Classics. This is a programmatic piano piece whose subject comes from a Shakespeare play whose name shall not be spoken here.

86 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3125.msg93800.html#msg93800) - A Maciek-piece. The most obvious clue about its composer is too obvious. Perhaps that fact itself is a clue, who knows? One of the few composer from his country who Maciek hasn’t posted here yet :P , but one of the most famous names.

87 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3125.msg93809.html#msg93809) - British composer, in his fifites. A viola concerto full of nostalgic quotations, all linked the Beethoven ‘Lebewohl’ horn-call

88 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3125.msg94060.html#msg94060) -12 tone composition for full orchestra. Not a symphony, though its composer wrote a few. Post-Schoenbergian dodecaphonist, Spanish by birth but adopted as English.

89 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3125.msg94063.html#msg94063) - also composer of no 105, one of the most important 20th century composers. This comes from a two-hander opera. Surely you don’t need more. ;)

98 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3125.msg94100.html#msg94100) Had him before. Never mind the notes here, look at the style of the score.

100 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3125.msg94105.html#msg94105) written by a great musical lexocographer and wit, whose advert for ‘Castoria’ is one of the great musical delights I know of.

102 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3125.msg94114.html#msg94114) - British composer of 9 symphonies. This one was inspired by a vision of multicultural harmony following race riots in the 50s (IIRC)

104 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3125.msg94123.html#msg94123) - a one-time disciple of Satie, though they fell out over a schoolboy prank. As I said, a major composer, and one of his finest but comparatively little-known works.

Luke, you've just given LO 70 away as Janacek's Mladi. Really, I should have known that one without the help.

Yes, it was a give-away, but that is deliberate; I think some of my others are give-aways too. I've been confused about some of these scores still not being guessed, so quite a few of my clues are geared towards simply getting them out of the way now!

Mladi it is, the end of the slow movement, with its peculiar 17/16 bars

It is one of those. And as he's a composer you'd probably love, it is imperative that you now go out and buy all these pieces so that you can track down which one. ;D It is my still favourite piece by Benjamin, though it is not one of his more recent works. The clue about Turner is important - there's only one of these works that that applies to!

Put me down as a Benjamin fan - though I'm afraid I still prefer his earlier works, up to about the Three Inventions. At First Light and A Mind of Winter particularly are just unsurpassable IMO. Having just claimed a feeling of kinship with the 1972 LSSO on the Brian thread (because I was a member of the orchestra long time later) I must also say I feel some kind of a connection to Benjamin (and to Judith Weir and Tom Ades) simply because he/they all studied music at the same place as me, albeit a while earlier; also, Benjamin's Ringed by the Flat Horizon, which brought him to prominence, was first performed as the winner of a university composition competition which I also, sort of, won, or would have had my piece been for smaller forces!

But of course none of that is really important except to me. What I adore about those works of Benjamin's I mentioned is their stunning aural imagination - small forces in each creating the most awesome and precisely imagined sounds. Benjamin is influenced by the spectralists - he is close to Murail IIRC - and this shows in the consumate yet unusual aural effects in some of these works (such as the big E flat pedal+harmonics towards the end of At First Light) but he isn't committed to one technique; his music has great scope and imagination.

Boris, if you liked the last movement of Ringed by the Flat Horizon you will probably like the parallel section of At First Light, which is similar in concept but more subtly coloured and almost shockingly beautiful IMO - those chords melting into each other gorgeously!

121 - I’ve left a big clue here. This comes from the climax of one of the great little chamber operas of the last half century. A genuine little masterpiece, one of its composer’s best. There’s already been a score by him on this thread.

125 - the composer in his Neapolitan vein here. Spiky here, this piece is elsewhere suffused with sumptuous Mediterranean lyricism. I really admire this work in many ways, though maybe that’s a bit unfashionable.

126 - unusually, this score comes from a CD liner note. The whole thing is reproduced over the first few pages of the booklet. One for Guido - if he doesn’t know it he should learn it! It was written for and recorded by a certain recently deceased Russian cellist. I’m sure I don’t need to tell you who.

127 - written as exercises for a composer-performer, who used/uses them as a basis for improvisation. The little squiggly signs above each group of notes is actually an ‘infinity’ sign, signifying that repetition is quite important to this composer…..

128 - a double canon at the ninth, though that begins to become freer on this final page. This piece was written as a counterpoint exercise, and partly in jest if the mock antique handwriting of the manuscript is a guide. But it is to my mind a very moving and beautiful work indeed. You could say that its composer is one of the big names.

129 - for some of this set I have taken copies of pages from a couple of books. This one comes from a book called Contemporary British Music or something of that sort, and once again it is one for Maciek. This composer used to live down the road from me when I was young.

130 - no comments just for now - some of you might well know this one straight off

133 - this might be quite hard, and I’ll happily give clues (I’ve left some on the score itself). But this piece has been recorded more than once, including on Naxos in the last few years, and may well be known by some here, so no more clues for now.

Hello there guys, hope you're getting on okay. Hey this is must be the longest thread I ever started! I'd be well out my depth though, I'm not sure how you boffins can find so many answers!

For the moment there's no way I can find time for the forum here- I need to find a better job for one thing, hoping then to work till I can do a doctorate on something in minimalism next year at Birmingham uni. At 38 it's kind of a mad idea but verbiage is the only thing I'm qualified for anyway.

Presently listening to Schubert songs and masses, Haydn quartets, Sacchini's Oepide and The Tales of Hoffmann.

Is he 'Guest' already? I didn't even have time to give him the proper 'hello' I wanted to...

Correct on the La Monte Young, Karl. And I'll give you the titles, though they're aren't precisely right!

145 - no comment (except LOL) just yet

146 - as soon as you look at this piece, I am sure you will agree with me that its absurdly modernist idiom meant that it absolutely merited the censure it received. It was in fact banned, and the stated reason for this banning is to be found on this page.