I think now is the opportune moment for Dooku to be plotting against Sidious. He has ridiculous amounts of freedom, and he is already sitting atop a huge power base. Why does the Republic HAVE to win? That benefits nobody but Sidious and Dooku is left trusting that Sidious will allow power to trickle down to him. That would make Sidious Emperor, it would give Sidious the strongest standing army, left unopposed after the shut down of the droid army. Also it would involve Dooku voluntarily sacrificing the immense power he has been given over a huge chunk of the galaxy to go sit in a jail cell... The CIS isn't much different than the Republic. If Dooku killed off Sidious now, left the Republic in disarray, and forced the Republic to capitulate then he can have the exact same outcome. He could declare himself Emperor, and turn the CIS dominated galaxy into whatever kind of galaxy he wants.

The man has been given immense authority under an ideology that urges him to exploit any opportunity and think of himself first and foremost. For him to be committed to Palpatine's goals at his own expense is just... dumb for a Sith. You take this character that is very charismatic and one would think very intelligent after spending the vast majority of his life as a Jedi, but then he turns out to be an idiot and lacks even the most basic understanding of what the Dark Side is about, when it took Anakin about 5 seconds to figure it out that he can ultimately overthrow Palpatine and turn the galaxy into whatever he wants.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that they retcon the convoluted explanation of the novelization that Anakin was going to become some general and Dooku was just going to take one for the team and get arrested. Say what you will about TCW's representation of Dooku, but that in itself made Dooku a complete idiot IMO. It would seem more plausible to me if Dooku sincerely makes an attempt to usurp power. To really throw a twist in, then make it so that in ROTS Dooku legitimately captures Palpatine and it is not part of some plan Palpatine orchestrated, but rather Dooku using Palpatine as bait to lure Anakin so that Dooku can turn him and then kill Palpatine, only for Anakin to save Palpatine. Especially now when they've already established that Dooku HAS plotted against Sidious and therefore has treated Palpatine as expendable to any larger plans, I don't see the necessity of turning Dooku back into a pawn that has worked out his differences with Sidious.

There is apparently a huge drop in Sith quality. Plagueis wants to be partners with Sidious and he suffers the consequences of trusting those who are selfish. But then Sidious turns around and feeds that exact same lie to Dooku and he eats it up? Not a very compelling character to be played so easily, IMO. As far as Sith go, he would be the worst of them on screen, and as far as basic intelligence goes, one might expect him to be smarter.

It would seem more plausible to me if Dooku sincerely makes an attempt to usurp power. To really throw a twist in, then make it so that in ROTS Dooku legitimately captures Palpatine and it is not part of some plan Palpatine orchestrated, but rather Dooku using Palpatine as bait to lure Anakin so that Dooku can turn him and then kill Palpatine, only for Anakin to save Palpatine. Especially now when they've already established that Dooku HAS plotted against Sidious and therefore has treated Palpatine as expendable to any larger plans, I don't see the necessity of turning Dooku back into a pawn that has worked out his differences with Sidious.

Thank you for explaining what I've felt for a while. As the show has progressed, I've started to really focus on "Kill him. Kill him now." Why else would Palpatine Sidious so relish seeing Dooku's head roll across the floor?

I just realized I'm ignoring TCW when it comes to Dooku, because I've never bought into their portrayal of him. My thoughts are just what I would like to be done with the character, based on the movies, his origins and his original core traits.

How does Dooku actually defeat the Republic? Depend on the incompetent Grievous to lead his dum dum battle droids to total victory? How does he defeat the Jedi Order? Without Sidious, presumably there is no Order 66.

Right now the war is phony, Dooku doesn't have to win it. He can just sit back and wait for Sidious to push his "I win" button and wipe out the Jedi. If he's worried that Sidious will betray him, and judging by ROTS he's not, he can always come up with a way to prevent Sidious from shutting down the droid armies. If he kills Palpatine, the war becomes real and he has to win it.

Dooku believes that his goals and Palpatine's goals are the same, I'm not sure why he would kill someone he honestly believes is his ally. Why would Dooku think he would end up in a jail cell, of all places? I'm pretty sure he believes that if they are victorious, Dooku will be "pardoned" or some such thing.

Why would Dooku think Palpatine would betray him? If Dooku is a loyal servant with the same goals, I'm not sure why Dooku would think Palpatine would kill him (besides he's a Sith and Sith always betray everyone). Which is why he's surprised when Palpatine gives Anakin the kill order in ROTS.

If Dooku doesn't believe these things, why is he allied with Sidious at all? What is he getting out of it?

Why ally with him in the first place? Dooku probably could have become the leader of the Separatists without Palpatine's help.

As soon as he gained control of the Separatists, why stay allies with Sidious? Why hasn't he been trying to kill Sidious 24/7 since then? Why let Sidious take complete control of the Senate and create the clone army?

TaradosGon said:

The man has been given immense authority under an ideology that urges him to exploit any opportunity and think of himself first and foremost.

That's the point, imo Dooku would never fully buy in to this ideology. Not the way Anakin does. We see this in ROTS with his utter surprise that Palpatine would let Anakin kill him, it shows you that Dooku never fully understood/accepted the ways of the Sith.

TaradosGon said:

For him to be committed to Palpatine's goals at his own expense is just... dumb for a Sith.

In his mind, it's not at his expense, it's to his benefit. He thinks he's getting what he wants. It is dumb for a Sith, but that's Dooku.

TaradosGon said:

You take this character that is very charismatic and one would think very intelligent after spending the vast majority of his life as a Jedi, but then he turns out to be an idiot and lacks even the most basic understanding of what the Dark Side is about, when it took Anakin about 5 seconds to figure it out that he can ultimately overthrow Palpatine and turn the galaxy into whatever he wants.

By "dark side", I think you mean Sith. The dark side isn't about betrayal and all that stuff. That's Sith.

TaradosGon said:

To really throw a twist in, then make it so that in ROTS Dooku legitimately captures Palpatine and it is not part of some plan Palpatine orchestrated, but rather Dooku using Palpatine as bait to lure Anakin so that Dooku can turn him and then kill Palpatine

That would be quite the twist and would change what we've known about those events for 7 years now.

In every source I know of, Dooku hates Anakin, he's insanely jealous of him and would love to kill him. I can't see him teaming up with Anakin.

It seems more likely that once he had Palpatine captured, Dooku would just kill him and not involve Skywalker.

I guess the two main points I see are:

1) With Palpatine, Dooku doesn't have to defeat the Jedi and perhaps not even the Republic. He doesn't even have to defeat Palpatine, assuming Palpatine wants what Dooku wants, which is what Dooku has believed since the beginning. If he didn't, he would have killed Palpatine as soon as he discovered his identity. If he kills Palpatine too soon, he has to do it all himself.

2) If you have Dooku go the backstabbing, psychotic evil route, you turn him into just another cookie cutter Sith, the same as all the rest. If you don't, he's something different. I prefer something different rather than the dark side turning everyone into the same exact thing, which I find boring.

Unfortunately Dooku's betrayal has been wildly inconsistent and TCW has definitely gone the complete opposite direction from the second point above, and possibly the first as well. I guess I just have this one view of Dooku drilled into my brain and can't let it go.

cwustudent said:

Why else would Palpatine Sidious so relish seeing Dooku's head roll across the floor?

Because that would mean his favored prize, Anakin, would be ripe for the picking.

How does Dooku actually defeat the Republic? Depend on the incompetent Grievous to lead his dum dum battle droids to total victory? How does he defeat the Jedi Order? Without Sidious, presumably there is no Order 66.

Tyrannus hired Jango to be the clone template. I would think that he could still manipulate things to his advantage and get Order 66 to be carried out. Right now it's a mock war, Tyrannus tries to hurt the Republic only to the extent that it creates a crisis and gives Palpatine power, then Palpatine has to use that power to drive back Dooku so he can justify the senate's faith in him so that he can be given even more power and be viewed as a hero. If Palpatine were killed and the war stopped being staged, if Dooku realized that he has the largest army at his disposal and does not need to keep taking losses for Sidious' benefit, it's plausible that he could win. If he were to attack Kamino and shut down clone production for good, the Jedi would lose. They can't fight the war by themselves.

Plus with how ignorant the CIS senate seems to be about the actions of its own military, which is overtly involved in war crimes. It seems like the Death Star is something the CIS could more easily turn out as a super weapon to end the war, over the Republic's ability to do anything similar, especially if they're already hurting for money.

Right now the war is phony, Dooku doesn't have to win it. He can just sit back and wait for Sidious to push his "I win" button and wipe out the Jedi. If he's worried that Sidious will betray him, and judging by ROTS he's not, he can always come up with a way to prevent Sidious from shutting down the droid armies.

His confidence in Sidious to hold all the power makes Dooku appear stupid. The Sith are all about power. Dooku has none if he's sitting around for Sidious to gain all of the power, push his "I win" button and then trust that Sidious will pardon him, when he knows full well that Sidious has his eye on Anakin.

Dooku believes that his goals and Palpatine's goals are the same, I'm not sure why he would kill someone he honestly believes is his ally. Why would Dooku think he would end up in a jail cell, of all places? I'm pretty sure he believes that if they are victorious, Dooku will be "pardoned" or some such thing.

It is said in the novelization that Dooku would be arrested as part of the plan, Grievous would be the scapegoat for the war, and Dooku would be pardoned. That's a lot of trust he's putting in his master, which seems contradictory to the way of the Sith.

By "dark side", I think you mean Sith. The dark side isn't about betrayal and all that stuff. That's Sith.

No, I mean dark side. The Sith follow the Dark Side. I don't know why there is always some strong differentiation between "Sith" and "Dark Side." Sith is the name of the Order, but their ideology is based upon the Dark Side, giving into aggressive tendencies, being selfish (and betrayal would go hand in hand with that), jealousy, hate, anger, those are all of the Dark Side which the Jedi say twist individuals to become evil. If Dooku is a Sith and has turned to the Dark Side, and has apprenticed himself to Sidious on top of that,I would expect that he would be more selfish, have ambition of his own, and know that by putting complete faith in Sidious is not the smartest thing to do.

That would be quite the twist and would change what we've known about those events for 7 years now.

In every source I know of, Dooku hates Anakin, he's insanely jealous of him and would love to kill him. I can't see him teaming up with Anakin.

And yet the plan was for them to team up anyway under the new regime, with Anakin denouncing the Jedi and Sidious/Dooku/Anakin ruling over a new Empire and a corrupted Jedi Order. I see no reason for Dooku to hate Anakin. Sidious was Dooku's master, Dooku cut off Anakin's arm, Sidious had played the Jedi Order and had killed off many of Anakin's peers. And he was responsible for the assassination attempts on Padme's life. Still Anakin pledged himself to be Sidious' apprentice in exchange for power. Sidious was the master of Maul who had killed Dooku's former apprentice, and yet Dooku joined up with Sidious. The idea that Dooku relentlessly hates Anakin as being some unrefined brute and is that obnoxiously principled when none of the other Sith are never sat right IMO. Dooku has the most first hand experience when it comes to fighting Anakin, he can sense Anakin's fear, he knows his power, if Dooku had any ambition of his own, it seems like he would see Anakin as being valuable, even if as nothing more than a temporary tool (which all the Sith apprentices are to the master anyway, until someone better comes along).

I only have one questions. Assuming Sidious's kidnapping was not part of his own plan and was a treacherous move by Dooku, why would Palpatine go along with it? Wouldn't he just kill Dooku himself?

Dooku didn't capture Palpatine himself. It would be an odd thing had Grievous openly captured Palpatine with a fleet in orbit, the Republic forces are fully aware that he has been taken and dispatch Jedi to retrieve him, only for Palpatine to come strolling back to the senate building dusting himself off with Grievous and droids destroyed in his wake, while the Jedi struggled to reach him. I would think his hand are tied. Plus if he's aware that he's being used as bait for Anakin, then he could have turned that to his advantage. I prefer the idea of Palpatine not always being in control, but being smart enough to turn misfortune into an advantage (like how he loses to Mace but turns Anakin). The idea that he's some genius that has everything planned out from the beginning and ultimately wins makes the character too flawless, and subsequently makes him less interesting IMO. Which ties into why I hate the ambitionless Dooku and the idea that Palpatine pretty much has a neutered Sith for an apprentice and can keep him under his thumb without issue.

I'm all for Palpatine being a flawed mastermind who has to work for his win, but I just don't think it's plausible that he would tolerate a serious attempt on his life by Dooku and allow himself to be manacled to a chair with a traitorous apprentice in striking distance. Dooku would try to kill Sidious and Sidious would succeed in killing Dooku.

No, I don't expect the Dooku v Sidious thread to continue. While I don't think TCW needs to show Dooku doing something direct to betray Sidious or challenge his rule, I would like TCW to show why he buys in to Sidious' plans. Vader once said, "I must obey my master," and later on you find out why. We don't yet know why Dooku is on the hook because TCW has spent practically 0 time taking us inside the relationship of the two sith lords. The other major thing missing from Dooku's character in TCW is any backstory whatsoever. All you know from the movies is that he's a former Jedi and a political idealist. If TCW would delve just a little deeper into what Dooku was seeking when he left the Jedi order, we'd have a better lens through which to view his apprentenceship with Sidious.

I'm all for Palpatine being a flawed mastermind who has to work for his win, but I just don't think it's plausible that he would tolerate a serious attempt on his life by Dooku and allow himself to be manacled to a chair with a traitorous apprentice in striking distance. Dooku would try to kill Sidious and Sidious would succeed in killing Dooku.

With enough creativity, I'm sure someone can think of something, like a reason Palpatine might be inclined to play oppossum. Or if Palpatine really were taken by force. It's been established that the Jedi aren't all mighty. They are more powerful than the average soldier with a blaster, but they can't take on armies. If Grievous with thousands of droids show up at Palpatine's doorstep and barge in to seize him, it might not be wise to resort to fighting back. It could get Palpatine killed by sheer number of opponents, or even if he wins, he risks exposing himself to the Jedi.

A lot of ideas that I draw upon for what I would like to see are based on history and how people have acted in certain situations. And there are plenty of instances in which subordinates have eclipsed their superiors in power and plot to usurp them and become traitors. Dooku hasn't eclipsed Palpatine in his skill with the Force, but when it comes to his actual power base as leader of the CIS, he has the independence and resources to seriously make an attempt to usurp Palpatine. Moreso than Vader or Maul. Add to that a fictional Sith Order that actively encourages traitorous behavior, and Dooku just becomes lame to me if he has no intelligence or ambition to seize opportunities to usurp Palpatine. Obviously, he can't succeed since we know his fate. But I'd rather see Dooku as an intelligent individual who just gets outplayed by Palpatine who had invested years of effort into Anakin, rather than the idea that Dooku just takes Palpatine at his word and is guillible. Which is why I was so happy that they cut his "you promised me amnesty!" line. That would have just been so lame to see Dooku nag Palpatine, "but you promiiiiiised...."

A historical example that I think could be used for inspiration is that of Oda Nobunaga and Akechi Mitsuhide. The first was a powerful lord in Japan during a time that there was massive civil war among regional governors and Mitsuhide was a subordinate lord that served Nobunaga. During one of Nobunaga's campaigns against a rival lord to the west, he sent many of his lieutenants west with the bulk of his military might, while he was in the rear with a small personal guard. Mitsuhide was sent out ahead, but seeing that his lord was poorly defended, turned his forces around, marched back to where his lord was camped, attacked and killed Nobunaga as well as his oldest son and their guard. Now I've heard conflicting interpretations about why Mitsuhide may have done this, from simple greed to seize power, to revenge at being publicly embarrassed and mocked by Nobunaga, to revenge for a family member that died due to Nobunaga's actions. But Mitsuhide was killed after a matter of days, so there's not a whole lot of available to offer much insight into his thoughts.

Dooku should have the ambition to seize Palpatine, and he seemed to desire revenge for being forced to betray Asajj (though that just seemed to get dropped and hasn't been concluded).

My favorite novel, Taiko, covers the events of Nobunaga's death and Mitsuhide's betrayal, (though the historical accuracy is questionable). It covers how he's seriously contemplating in silence, and forces his vassals to commit to his cause to betray Nobunaga, and how without saying a word he turns his army around, marches back to just outside Nobunaga's camp while the troops are confused. Mitsuhide threatens that any that make a sound while crossing a river near the settlement will be killed, and then proclaims that "the enemy is at Honnoji (where Nobunaga was staying)" and orders his troops to attack the place.

Star Wars-ify that and modify it and Dooku would be redeemed for me. Perhaps Palpatine tells Dooku of a plan in which the Republic is going to commit a huge portion of its forces into the Outer Rim sieges and that the expectation is that Dooku and Grievous will participate to some benefit such as getting Palpatine more emergency power, etc. Meanwhile Dooku realizes that Coruscant is horribly exposed and disobeys Palpatine and races to Coruscant via the Nexus Route (which would involve a story showing how he acquired the route) in order to capitalize on this rare opportunity (Jedi mostly committed to Outer Rim and Palpatine exposed), and catches Palpatine off guard and captures him.

Rather than making Dooku a guillible fool, it could make him out to be fairly brilliant and show one huge slip up that Palpatine made, only for Anakin's personal loyalty to Palpatine to pay off as Anakin comes and rescues Palpatine (legitimately). And instead of Dooku goading Anakin to the Dark Side so that Dooku can chill out in a jail cell and await Palpatine's pardon, they could have it so Dooku anticipated Anakin and Obi-Wan's arrival and actually wanted to turn Anakin for his own ends so that he could have a powerful apprentice when he ultimately usurped Palpatine.

It would be a fairly massive retcon to the current understanding of how the conflict in the beginning of the film plays out according to the novels (the films themselves shed no light on Dooku's bizarre expectations of what was to happen (especially since the amnesty line was cut, which would have indicated that Palpatine had planned everything). However, that's a retcon I'd fully support. I have no expectation that they'll turn to some obscure Japanese novel for inspiration of would do things exactly as I said. But I'm hoping for more intelligence, ambition, and all around independence for Dooku beyond simply being Sidious 2.0 and a guillible pawn.

That was very well-written and I definitely would like to see some of those ideas incorporated, but I still think it's a long-shot for it to play out. A more believable retcon is that the kidnapping was part of Sidious's plan, hence why Dooku is still breathing, but Dooku was plotting to goad Anakin to the dark side then and the two of them would kill Sidious immediately.

Since it was stated in the ROTS novel that Count Dooku/Darth Tyranus wanted to re-establish the Jedi Order in his own way, it would make sense that he would kidnap Padawan younglings like the six showcased in the Clone Wars arc. Tyranus needs to do more than play the behind the scenes Seperatist Leader and this plan of his should be something that he should be doing during the war.