Not only is the man bringing it at 15 ppg but is only turning it over once per game despite handling the rock much more than he ever did in boston and is often helping to facilitate the offense while he's out there. no grudge against the man, he made the best basketball decision for himself. wide open looks, and guys who can actually catch his passes due to increased athleticism and younger reflexes, south freakin beach... well played by mr. allen!

will those numbers stay that high? not likely... but he will top his 45% career average and 40% 3 average. can see him shooting 50%+ and leading the league at 45% on 3s while making the all-star game and getting at least one more ring over the next 3 years!

Ray was one of the few gentlemen and great player on the C's last 5 years.Ray carried the C's and hit many game winning shots.

For a bunch of guys who claim they don't hate Ray at all, they sure spend a lot of verbiage and energy running him down, criticizing him, hoping he fails, slandering him, impunging his integrity, and minimizing the accomplishmnet of this certified Hall of Famer.

A hater by any other name is still a hater.

Isn't it hypocritical to say you don't hate Ray when almost everything you say about him is derogratory and spiteful?

It will be interesting at the end of the season to compare the stats of Avery Bradly and the crew at the 2, for the Celtics, the Celtics W/L record, and Ray's stats and the Heat's record.

It is fair to say that the Celtics took a hosing when Ray went to the Heat, isn't it? It's fair to say the Celtics would be in better shape with Ray, wouldn't it?

You can debate it and spin it, but I think the honest answer is obvious.

For a bunch of guys who claim they don't hate Ray at all, they sure spend a lot of verbiage and energy running him down, criticizing him, hoping he fails, slandering him, impunging his integrity, and minimizing the accomplishmnet of this certified Hall of Famer.

A hater by any other name is still a hater.

Isn't it hypocritical to say you don't hate Ray when almost everything you say about him is derogratory and spiteful?

It will be interesting at the end of the season to compare the stats of Avery Bradly and the crew at the 2, for the Celtics, the Celtics W/L record, and Ray's stats and the Heat's record.

It is fair to say that the Celtics took a hosing when Ray went to the Heat, isn't it? It's fair to say the Celtics would be in better shape with Ray, wouldn't it?

You can debate it and spin it, but I think the honest answer is obvious.

Ya can't look at much, can ya, Man.

The Heat were better last year when the Celtics had Ray Allen. Obviously the won lost record will be a spurious comparison this year.

As far as Stats go, yeah at the end of the year we can look at Terry and Allen and compare stats by minute.

Either way Bradley is the best of the bunch if he is healthy.

Again I really don't get why you would identify someone as a "hater" who chooses to point out that Ray is not the player that he used to be.

The Heat were better last year when the Celtics had Ray Allen. Obviously the won lost record will be a spurious comparison this year.

As far as Stats go, yeah at the end of the year we can look at Terry and Allen and compare stats by minute.

Either way Bradley is the best of the bunch if he is healthy.

Again I really don't get why you would identify someone as a "hater" who chooses to point out that Ray is not the player that he used to be.

Garnett isn't either, Neither is Pierce.

-

"Again I really don't get why you would identify someone as a "hater" who chooses to point out that Ray is not the player that he used to be."

I didn't do that, snake: perhaps youre self-identifying as a "hater".

"The Heat were better last year when the Celtics had Ray Allen."

The Heat were a little better last year than the C's, but this year they are much better and you do know why, don't you.

I thought it would be interesting to compare stats in light of the many claims here that Allen won't be effective all season and that his body will break down, dubious claims, ast best, and totally unfounded based on the available evidence. Correlation does not equal causation.

I just think that whenever someone places a disclaimer like, "I don't hate Ray . . " there is a big, implied "but" just waiting be sprung that will include a long litany of why they don't {not} hate Ray, and a list of bad things about Ray and why he will fail now that he is not with the Celtics.

Feel free to disagree for I'm not trying to change anyone's mind just pointing out the dynamics and the rhetorical tactics being used in his ongoing debate.

Unless Ray can play center, we wont miss him and last I checked, Ray is a Sg which we have plenty of. If you combine what we got instead of him. We got the better deal by far. Terry, Lee and Barbosa ALL play better D then Allen while not shooting at great but are very good shooter in their own rights. I'll take the drop off in percentage by a couple points for more defensive stops. thank you

You can be considered a hater when you only forcus on the negative aspects (and on top use fals arguments).

You can be considered a fanboy when you only look at the positive aspects (see above).

1. Ray will not going to shot the same number like in the first 3 games. Terry and Lee will come around.

2. Ray was better than either Terry or Lee last year and without an injury it is not unlikely similiar this year.

3. Ray was always a starter and Star player. Lee is a journeyman and Terry was always a benchplayer (a great one though) --> There is a reason for that.

4. Terry NEVER was a better defense player than Ray. He is not focused and too small. Check what Doc said after what was a good defensive game of Terry: Celtics coach Doc Rivers said: “And, you know, it’s funny, we left Jason in because he was playing great defense. That may be a first in his career that that’s ever been said about Jason Terry. ..."

5. Both Lee and Terry (and AB as well) are not better rebounders than Ray.

6. Lee (and AB) is not a better ball handler than Ray (Terry only a little).

7. Ray is not a turnover machine --> I proved that with facts several time.

8. Ray's defense is underappreciated --> prove last playoffs.

9. Over a long season: Terry & Lee & Allen might be better than Allen & AB due too the risc of injury --> but if healthy it might be the other way around.

10. Our biggest problem is NOT at the SG positions. SF and C is an issue so far. Green is terrible at the moment!

The Heat were better last year when the Celtics had Ray Allen. Obviously the won lost record will be a spurious comparison this year.

As far as Stats go, yeah at the end of the year we can look at Terry and Allen and compare stats by minute.

Either way Bradley is the best of the bunch if he is healthy.

Again I really don't get why you would identify someone as a "hater" who chooses to point out that Ray is not the player that he used to be.

Garnett isn't either, Neither is Pierce.

-

"Again I really don't get why you would identify someone as a "hater" who chooses to point out that Ray is not the player that he used to be."

I didn't do that, snake: perhaps youre self-identifying as a "hater".

"The Heat were better last year when the Celtics had Ray Allen."

The Heat were a little better last year than the C's, but this year they are much better and you do know why, don't you.

I thought it would be interesting to compare stats in light of the many claims here that Allen won't be effective all season and that his body will break down, dubious claims, ast best, and totally unfounded based on the available evidence. Correlation does not equal causation.

I just think that whenever someone places a disclaimer like, "I don't hate Ray . . " there is a big, implied "but" just waiting be sprung that will include a long litany of why they don't {not} hate Ray, and a list of bad things about Ray and why he will fail now that he is not with the Celtics.

Feel free to disagree for I'm not trying to change anyone's mind just pointing out the dynamics and the rhetorical tactics being used in his ongoing debate.

-

The Heat were way better last year. They had a .697 winning percentage. The Celtics had a .591 winning percentage.

At the end of the year we can compare their winning percentages this year and then one could possibly make an argument that Allen was a big difference maker if the Heat's winning percentage rose or the Celtics dropped.

Miami won the championship last year without Ray Allen, the Celtics lost to the Heat with Ray Allen.

But somehow Ray Allen is why the Heat are better?

Makes sense.

I dont think Ray will fail. I just don't think he is that good anymore either. Time will tell.

You can be considered a hater when you only forcus on the negative aspects (and on top use fals arguments).

You can be considered a fanboy when you only look at the positive aspects (see above).

1. Ray will not going to shot the same number like in the first 3 games. Terry and Lee will come around.

2. Ray was better than either Terry or Lee last year and without an injury it is not unlikely similiar this year.

3. Ray was always a starter and Star player. Lee is a journeyman and Terry was always a benchplayer (a great one though) --> There is a reason for that.

4. Terry NEVER was a better defense player than Ray. He is not focused and too small. Check what Doc said after what was a good defensive game of Terry: Celtics coach Doc Rivers said: âÂÂAnd, you know, itâÂÂs funny, we left Jason in because he was playing great defense. That may be a first in his career that thatâÂÂs ever been said about Jason Terry. ..."

5. Both Lee and Terry (and AB as well) are not better rebounders than Ray.

6. Lee (and AB) is not a better ball handler than Ray (Terry only a little).

7. Ray is not a turnover machine --> I proved that with facts several time.

8. Ray's defense is underappreciated --> prove last playoffs.

9. Over a long season: Terry & Lee & Allen might be better than Allen & AB due too the risc of injury --> but if healthy it might be the other way around.

10. Our biggest problem is NOT at the SG positions. SF and C is an issue so far. Green is terrible at the moment!

My hat is off to you, Sir, for putting together a wonderful post: clear, well thought out, and easy to follow.

"You can be considered a hater when you only forcus on the negative aspects (and on top use false arguments).

You can be considered a fanboy when you only look at the positive aspects (see above)."

I am in complete agreement with you on most things. According to your definations do the folks here who demand that you only post positive things about the Celtics qualify as fanboys?

You can be considered a hater when you only forcus on the negative aspects (and on top use fals arguments).

You can be considered a fanboy when you only look at the positive aspects (see above).

1. Ray will not going to shot the same number like in the first 3 games. Terry and Lee will come around.

2. Ray was better than either Terry or Lee last year and without an injury it is not unlikely similiar this year.

3. Ray was always a starter and Star player. Lee is a journeyman and Terry was always a benchplayer (a great one though) --> There is a reason for that.

4. Terry NEVER was a better defense player than Ray. He is not focused and too small. Check what Doc said after what was a good defensive game of Terry: Celtics coach Doc Rivers said: âÂÂÂÂAnd, you know, itâÂÂÂÂs funny, we left Jason in because he was playing great defense. That may be a first in his career that thatâÂÂÂÂs ever been said about Jason Terry. ..."

5. Both Lee and Terry (and AB as well) are not better rebounders than Ray.

6. Lee (and AB) is not a better ball handler than Ray (Terry only a little).

7. Ray is not a turnover machine --> I proved that with facts several time.

8. Ray's defense is underappreciated --> prove last playoffs.

9. Over a long season: Terry & Lee & Allen might be better than Allen & AB due too the risc of injury --> but if healthy it might be the other way around.

10. Our biggest problem is NOT at the SG positions. SF and C is an issue so far. Green is terrible at the moment!

Great post. But wasted on Ray Allen haters. To them, 1 turnover by Ray equals 5. If he misses a shot, he's all washup and needs to be traded immediately.

They won't even admit this simple truth: The Celtics always started strong during the Ray Allen era.

So why the slow start this year? What's different now? Simple: No Ray Allen.

But they will never admit it; they will come up with this excuse and that exuse instead of the obvious: No Ray Allen. Off course, now that Jeff Green has been thrown to the wolves, they now have their hopes on their other savior= Avery Bradly. LOL Sorry but it's simple delusion to think Avery Bradly will be the difference maker for Title contention...he will always be simply a role player at best; use as a diffensive stopper.

And I'll post this a second time... but through 4 games last season Ray was avergaing 20 points and 58/58/100... he entered January doing that. Then in 17 games in January he shot 55% from 3 and avg'd under 2 turnovers a game.

and it was all downhill from there...

He is a career 45/40 shooter but as a Celtic his last 4 years, in his mid 30's, he was a 47/42 shooter... that is what I expect from him in Miami if he is healthy.. even a few ticks more b/c he will get better looks... so 48/45 maybe.

So what are the better odds?

A. That he shoots 48/45 over the whole year and at some point deals with an injury, or a shooting slump... and Miami will be holding their breath its not in the playoffs

or

B. That he shoots 59/59 all year, or even 50% from either the 2 or the 3, and is run 28 mins a game and there are no issues for his 37 year old body?

He lost his job to Avery and pouted, he wanted no part of beign a decoy or playing here off the bench anymore... so he took 50% of the $ to go elsewhere. What are we complaining about?

At the end of the year if Terry and Lee shoot their career averages they will have combined to be FAR better than what Ray gave us off the bench at the end of the year last year... in a role he refused to be in this year.

Ray was a great addition to the Celtics the year that they won the championship. Although, I always thought that if the Celtics had acquired KG before they did, without Ray, they still could have been a championship caliber team. I was always surprised that KG stayed with Minn. He was always very loyal to his franchise, something that doesn't exist anymore. If the Celtics had added KG about 5 years before they did, they just needed another good shooter. If I remember correctly, the reaon the Celtics won the championship was because of KG and Pierce. I never thought of Ray as the difference maker. It would have been nice to see KG win a few more championships, if not with the Celtics, with some other team. Does anyone agree with me?

And I'll post this a second time... but through 4 games last season Ray was avergaing 20 points and 58/58/100... he entered January doing that. Then in 17 games in January he shot 55% from 3 and avg'd under 2 turnovers a game.

and it was all downhill from there...

NO! not on this susan.. ray was nearly the mvp of that series and he was the one making countless late game daggers. minus ray, we dont win a ring! he was that good.. kg was often the

He is a career 45/40 shooter but as a Celtic his last 4 years, in his mid 30's, he was a 47/42 shooter... that is what I expect from him in Miami if he is healthy.. even a few ticks more b/c he will get better looks... so 48/45 maybe.

So what are the better odds?

A. That he shoots 48/45 over the whole year and at some point deals with an injury, or a shooting slump... and Miami will be holding their breath its not in the playoffs

or

B. That he shoots 59/59 all year, or even 50% from either the 2 or the 3, and is run 28 mins a game and there are no issues for his 37 year old body?

He lost his job to Avery and pouted, he wanted no part of beign a decoy or playing here off the bench anymore... so he took 50% of the $ to go elsewhere. What are we complaining about?

At the end of the year if Terry and Lee shoot their career averages they will have combined to be FAR better than what Ray gave us off the bench at the end of the year last year... in a role he refused to be in this year.

Ray was a great addition to the Celtics the year that they won the championship. Although, I always thought that if the Celtics had acquired KG before they did, without Ray, they still could have been a championship caliber team. I was always surprised that KG stayed with Minn. He was always very loyal to his franchise, something that doesn't exist anymore. If the Celtics had added KG about 5 years before they did, they just needed another good shooter. If I remember correctly, the reaon the Celtics won the championship was because of KG and Pierce. I never thought of Ray as the difference maker. It would have been nice to see KG win a few more championships, if not with the Celtics, with some other team. Does anyone agree with me?

NO! UR MISREMEMBERING THINGS ON THIS susan. ray was nearly the mvp of that series. kg was often the third wheel on offense, remember? doc always says that ray made the most sacrifices. plus he played pretty good defense, everyone remarked at how good his d was,. a healthy ray is still a deadly ray! we dont win that ring without RAY! period!

Thanks for responding to me. I just wonder if anyone else has any thoughts on my original post.

Ray was a great addition to the Celtics the year that they won the championship. Although, I always thought that if the Celtics had acquired KG before they did, without Ray, they still could have been a championship caliber team. I was always surprised that KG stayed with Minn. He was always very loyal to his franchise, something that doesn't exist anymore. If the Celtics had added KG about 5 years before they did, they just needed another good shooter. If I remember correctly, the reaon the Celtics won the championship was because of KG and Pierce. I never thought of Ray as the difference maker. It would have been nice to see KG win a few more championships, if not with the Celtics, with some other team. Does anyone agree with me?

Paul Pierce was the biggest reason why the Celts won the 2008 title. And Ray Allen had to make the greatest sacrifice, yes. Which basically means that the Celts rode the defense, anchored by KG and Perkins, and an offense anchored by Paul Pierce. Posey was a key versatile contributor to both. Eddie House provided his moments. Ray did his part by playing decent defense and making the required offensive contributions. In the large scheme, Ray was the 3rd. most significant contributor but not by much over Posey.

I am not a Ray hater. I think that Ray made the best decision for himself as a player and not for financial reasons. I have kept quiet about the back and forth sniping that has gone on between him and the Celts. He is a good fit in Miami and he makes Miami very strong. But I also believe that Ray on the Celts would not be as effective.

Much as I remember Ray for his killer shooting, I also remember him getting abused by Wade. I remember him for his poor and scared finish of fast breaks, trying to aviod blocks from behind, poor spacing and missing the layups. Ray's great game 7 against the Lakers in 2008 must be balanced against his scared performance against Miami in 2010 and 2011. Ray is thriving in Miami as a 4th option behind LeBron, Wade and Bosh. These three are a stronger combination than KG, Pierce and Rondo. On the Celtics, Ray would not have been as effective.

So what is the problem here? I don't get it. Ray left twice the money to go to a situation where he will fit better as a player. Did Danny try to keep him? He did. Would Ray have stayed if he had a better relationship with Rondo and if he was not shopped around? No one can predict that. Why would Ray have sacrificed the chance to play on a championship team and maximize his contributions at this point in his career? Did the Celts need to explore options at 2? Absolutely. When and where will they find the solution is not yet known. But status quo was definitely not an option.

Change happens. The Celts have to search for a new identity. That is irrespective of Ray. Lets just remember Ray for his past contributions, treat him as a member of the enemy now and root for the Celts. In 2007 the Celts got Posey because of the circumstances. In 2012, Miami got Ray because of the circumstances. It time to stop bashing Danny and Rondo for this.

You can be considered a hater when you only forcus on the negative aspects (and on top use fals arguments).

You can be considered a fanboy when you only look at the positive aspects (see above).

1. Ray will not going to shot the same number like in the first 3 games. Terry and Lee will come around.

2. Ray was better than either Terry or Lee last year and without an injury it is not unlikely similiar this year.

3. Ray was always a starter and Star player. Lee is a journeyman and Terry was always a benchplayer (a great one though) --> There is a reason for that.

4. Terry NEVER was a better defense player than Ray. He is not focused and too small. Check what Doc said after what was a good defensive game of Terry: Celtics coach Doc Rivers said: âÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂAnd, you know, itâÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂs funny, we left Jason in because he was playing great defense. That may be a first in his career that thatâÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂs ever been said about Jason Terry. ..."

5. Both Lee and Terry (and AB as well) are not better rebounders than Ray.

6. Lee (and AB) is not a better ball handler than Ray (Terry only a little).

7. Ray is not a turnover machine --> I proved that with facts several time.

8. Ray's defense is underappreciated --> prove last playoffs.

9. Over a long season: Terry & Lee & Allen might be better than Allen & AB due too the risc of injury --> but if healthy it might be the other way around.

10. Our biggest problem is NOT at the SG positions. SF and C is an issue so far. Green is terrible at the moment!

Great post. But wasted on Ray Allen haters. To them, 1 turnover by Ray equals 5. If he misses a shot, he's all washup and needs to be traded immediately.

They won't even admit this simple truth: The Celtics always started strong during the Ray Allen era.

So why the slow start this year? What's different now? Simple: No Ray Allen.

But they will never admit it; they will come up with this excuse and that exuse instead of the obvious: No Ray Allen. Off course, now that Jeff Green has been thrown to the wolves, they now have their hopes on their other savior= Avery Bradly. LOL Sorry but it's simple delusion to think Avery Bradly will be the difference maker for Title contention...he will always be simply a role player at best; use as a diffensive stopper.

It's hard to tell whether you are serious or not, by the end of February last year the Celtics were 17 and 17 with ray allen. this year they are starting 3 and 3 without Ray Allen. I dont know if you can figure that out without a calculator but its the same winning percentage.

You can be considered a hater when you only forcus on the negative aspects (and on top use fals arguments).

You can be considered a fanboy when you only look at the positive aspects (see above).

1. Ray will not going to shot the same number like in the first 3 games. Terry and Lee will come around.

2. Ray was better than either Terry or Lee last year and without an injury it is not unlikely similiar this year.

3. Ray was always a starter and Star player. Lee is a journeyman and Terry was always a benchplayer (a great one though) --> There is a reason for that.

4. Terry NEVER was a better defense player than Ray. He is not focused and too small. Check what Doc said after what was a good defensive game of Terry: Celtics coach Doc Rivers said: âÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂAnd, you know, itâÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂs funny, we left Jason in because he was playing great defense. That may be a first in his career that thatâÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂs ever been said about Jason Terry. ..."

5. Both Lee and Terry (and AB as well) are not better rebounders than Ray.

6. Lee (and AB) is not a better ball handler than Ray (Terry only a little).

7. Ray is not a turnover machine --> I proved that with facts several time.

8. Ray's defense is underappreciated --> prove last playoffs.

9. Over a long season: Terry & Lee & Allen might be better than Allen & AB due too the risc of injury --> but if healthy it might be the other way around.

10. Our biggest problem is NOT at the SG positions. SF and C is an issue so far. Green is terrible at the moment!

Great post. But wasted on Ray Allen haters. To them, 1 turnover by Ray equals 5. If he misses a shot, he's all washup and needs to be traded immediately.

They won't even admit this simple truth: The Celtics always started strong during the Ray Allen era.

So why the slow start this year? What's different now? Simple: No Ray Allen.

But they will never admit it; they will come up with this excuse and that exuse instead of the obvious: No Ray Allen. Off course, now that Jeff Green has been thrown to the wolves, they now have their hopes on their other savior= Avery Bradly. LOL Sorry but it's simple delusion to think Avery Bradly will be the difference maker for Title contention...he will always be simply a role player at best; use as a diffensive stopper.

It's hard to tell whether you are serious or not, by the end of February last year the Celtics were 17 and 17 with ray allen. this year they are starting 3 and 3 without Ray Allen. I dont know if you can figure that out without a calculator but its the same winning percentage.

u haters keep wasting time bringing in ray's record AFTER he got hurt with the spurs. with healthy ray early in the season we were doing awesome. heck the team's record without ray was worse than that of the other 3 (incl rr, pp and kg)...

What are you talking about? the Celtics started 17 and 17 last year with a healthy Ray Allen.

Ray was a great addition to the Celtics the year that they won the championship. Although, I always thought that if the Celtics had acquired KG before they did, without Ray, they still could have been a championship caliber team. I was always surprised that KG stayed with Minn. He was always very loyal to his franchise, something that doesn't exist anymore. If the Celtics had added KG about 5 years before they did, they just needed another good shooter. If I remember correctly, the reaon the Celtics won the championship was because of KG and Pierce. I never thought of Ray as the difference maker. It would have been nice to see KG win a few more championships, if not with the Celtics, with some other team. Does anyone agree with me?

Paul Pierce was the biggest reason why the Celts won the 2008 title. And Ray Allen had to make the greatest sacrifice, yes. Which basically means that the Celts rode the defense, anchored by KG and Perkins, and an offense anchored by Paul Pierce. Posey was a key versatile contributor to both. Eddie House provided his moments. Ray did his part by playing decent defense and making the required offensive contributions. In the large scheme, Ray was the 3rd. most significant contributor but not by much over Posey.

I am not a Ray hater. I think that Ray made the best decision for himself as a player and not for financial reasons. I have kept quiet about the back and forth sniping that has gone on between him and the Celts. He is a good fit in Miami and he makes Miami very strong. But I also believe that Ray on the Celts would not be as effective.

Much as I remember Ray for his killer shooting, I also remember him getting abused by Wade. I remember him for his poor and scared finish of fast breaks, trying to aviod blocks from behind, poor spacing and missing the layups. Ray's great game 7 against the Lakers in 2008 must be balanced against his scared performance against Miami in 2010 and 2011. Ray is thriving in Miami as a 4th option behind LeBron, Wade and Bosh. These three are a stronger combination than KG, Pierce and Rondo. On the Celtics, Ray would not have been as effective.

So what is the problem here? I don't get it. Ray left twice the money to go to a situation where he will fit better as a player. Did Danny try to keep him? He did. Would Ray have stayed if he had a better relationship with Rondo and if he was not shopped around? No one can predict that. Why would Ray have sacrificed the chance to play on a championship team and maximize his contributions at this point in his career? Did the Celts need to explore options at 2? Absolutely. When and where will they find the solution is not yet known. But status quo was definitely not an option.

Change happens. The Celts have to search for a new identity. That is irrespective of Ray. Lets just remember Ray for his past contributions, treat him as a member of the enemy now and root for the Celts. In 2007 the Celts got Posey because of the circumstances. In 2012, Miami got Ray because of the circumstances. It time to stop bashing Danny and Rondo for this.

Great post. I believe that you are correct that Pierce is the biggest reason that we won the championship. If I remember correctly, he was great against Cleveland and was better than Kobe in a couple of key games that gave us the championship.