Shofar FTP Archive File: people/r/raven.greg/1994/raven.0794

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Article: 14316 of alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: open debate
In-Reply-To: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com's message of Mon, 25 Jul 1994 18:44:14 -0800
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Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
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Date: Tue, 26 Jul 1994 05:03:05 GMT
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
>> Of course. *Asserting* a false history, however, tends to be met with
>> corrections. Nothing wrong with that either, right?
>
>That is exactly what revisionists are doing with regards the gassing claims
>of the traditional Holocaust story.
Asserting a false history?
That's what it would seem to be to me, given the overwhelming evidence
to the contrary.
About all the revisionists seem to have in rebuttal, when you get down
to it, is that they believe axiomatically that the gassing did not
occur so therefore conclude that all evidence to the contrary (ie,
showing that gassing occurred) must have been falsified or is
otherwise flawed even if they can't quite explain how or why or, most
importantly, by whom (except in the vaguest terms.)
The problem of course is that this implies some sort of massive and
highly coordinated conspiracy to fabricate evidence which appears to
come from completely unrelated sources yet is reasonably consistent.
And that a lot of very intelligent and aware people have been
completely fooled where the revisionists have not, over a period of 50
years no less. Possible. Not likely, though.
Particularly when the revisionists' viewpoint is always, in my
experience, based upon secondary and tertiary sources, exercises
in tedious reasoning trying to pick apart evidence.
One would think there would be, at the very least, a few credible
witnesses who could be produced who might in all these years have said
something like: I was a prisoner at Auschwitz (&c) for N years from
19XX-19XY. In my role as XYZZY I visited many parts of the camp
(perhaps) and I never saw nor heard of any gassing facility and
believe sincerely that every person who claims otherwise is lying.
Yet evidence of this sort is never presented. Only the conclusions of
people who seem to fit a strong pattern of either unqualified to draw
the conclusions they are making, or who clearly have a political axe
to grind that would lead them to their dubious beliefs, or in many
instances, both.
Anyhow, such vast and undetected conspiracies seem highly
unlikely. Yet this, too, is merely accepted by revisionists as
axiomatic and not worthwhile explaining.
Since they believe there was no gassing then all evidence to the
contrary must be falsified. Therefore, since all evidence must have
been falsified there must be (or must have been) some vast conspiracy
falsifying this evidence.
Unfortunately for the revisionists, there's another much simpler and
easier to accept explanation: The gassings occurred, the evidence is
by and large valid, and no such conspiracy need exist.
Oh I'm sure some bits and pieces are questionable, such is inevitable
when human testimony is involved. But that hardly overthrows the basic
picture consistently portrayed. One only really needs one
incontrovertible bit of evidence to prove something occurred, so a few
questionable bits of evidence among many solid pieces is not a
problem, you throw out the questionable ones and you are still left
with the same exact conclusion; gassings occurred as is generally
believed.
I realize that so long as revisionists insist that their point of view
is axiomatic this will be a problem.
--------------------
"Apart from that I gave orders that all men should stand as far away
as possible from van during the gassings, so that their health would
not be damaged by any escaping gases. I would like to take this
opportunity to draw your attention to the following: Some of the
Kommandos are using their own men to unload the vans after the
gassing. I have made commanders of the Sonderkommandos in question
aware of the enormous psychological and physical damage this work can
do to the men, if not immediately then at a later stage."
Dr August Becker on 16 May 1942 to SS-Obersturmbannfuherer Rauff
--------------------
During my visit to Kumhof I also saw the extermination installation,
with the lorry which had been set up for killing by means of motor
exhaust fumes. The head of the Kommando told me that this method,
however, was very unreliable, as the gas build-up was very irregular
and was often insufficient for killing.
Rudolf Hoss, Commandant of Auschwitz, on a visit to Chelmno
on 16 September 1942
--
-Barry Shein
Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD
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Article: 14319 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access3.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: open debate
Date: 25 Jul 1994 23:41:51 -0400
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In article ,
Greg Raven wrote:
>In article , bzs@world.std.com (Barry
>Shein) wrote:
>
>
>> Of course. *Asserting* a false history, however, tends to be met with
>> corrections. Nothing wrong with that either, right?
>
>That is exactly what revisionists are doing with regards the gassing claims
>of the traditional Holocaust story.
Asserting a false history? Yes, that's exactly what the revisionists
are doing on both counts - falsifying history, and doing it by assertion
rather than facts and logic.
Welcome back, Greg. Speaking of real evidence, do you have any to
offer in response to the reply to your last posting? (I'm sure it can be
reposted if you need your memory refreshed.)
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
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Article: 14324 of alt.revisionism
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: open debate
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 1994 18:44:14 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
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In article , bzs@world.std.com (Barry
Shein) wrote:
> Of course. *Asserting* a false history, however, tends to be met with
> corrections. Nothing wrong with that either, right?
That is exactly what revisionists are doing with regards the gassing claims
of the traditional Holocaust story.
--
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
For more information about the IHR, e-mail me your postal address, and I
will send you information free of charge.
From oneb!kmcvay Wed Jul 27 10:07:35 PDT 1994
Article: 14325 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!kmcvay
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Subject: Re: open debate
References: <30uk27$qtg@search01.news.aol.com>
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Message-ID: <1994Jul27.162055.6158@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 94 16:20:55 GMT
In article greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:
>In article , bzs@world.std.com (Barry
>Shein) wrote:
>> Of course. *Asserting* a false history, however, tends to be met with
>> corrections. Nothing wrong with that either, right?
>That is exactly what revisionists are doing with regards the gassing claims
>of the traditional Holocaust story.
Correct, Mr. Raven. You assert false history, and we meet it with
corrections. Thank you for clearing that up in such concise terms.
Perhaps now you will respond to our post of May 4, which you seem to
have overlooked in the time since.
I've reposted it, so you won't miss it this time around.
--
"Everything I do is done with the full knowledge of the Fuehrer."
(Himmler, Heinrich. See Jochen von Lang, "Der Adjutant: Karl Wolff,"
Munich: Herbig, 1985, pp . 140ff)
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Article: 14326 of alt.revisionism
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: open debate (Long)
Date: 26 Jul 1994 13:08:48 GMT
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>From the statement of Hans Stark, registrar of new arrivals, Auschwitz:
[Quoted in "'The Good Old Days'" - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The
Free Press, NY, 1988, p. 255].
--------------------------------------------------------------
At another, later gassing -- also in autumn 1941 -- Grabner* ordered
me to pour Zyklon B into the opening because only one medical orderly
had shown up. During a gassing Zyklon B had to be poured through both
openings of the gas-chamber room at the same time. This gassing was
also a transport of 200-250 Jews, once again men, women and children.
As the Zyklon B -- as already mentioned -- was in granular form, it
trickled down over the people as it was being poured in. They then
started to cry out terribly for they now knew what was happening to
them. I did not look through the opening because it had to be closed
as soon as the Zyklon B had been poured in. After a few minutes there
was silence. After some time had passed, it may have been ten to
fifteen minutes, the gas chamber was opened. The dead lay
higgledy-piggedly all over the place. It was a dreadful sight.
* Maximillian Grabner, Head of Political Department, Auschwitz
>From the testimony of SS-Unterscharfuehrer Wilhelm Bahr in his trial
at Hamburg:
[Quoted in "Truth Prevails", ISBN 1-879437-00-7, p. 99].
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Q: Is it correct that you have gassed 200 Russian POW's with Zyklon-B?
A: Yes, on orders.
Q: Where did you do that?
A: In Neuengamme [concentration camp].
Q: On whose order?
A: The local doctor, Dr. Von Bergmann.
Q: With what gas?
A: With Prussic acid [another name for Zyklon-B].
Q: How long did the Russians take to die?
A: I do not know. I only obeyed orders.
Q: How long did it take to gas the Russians?
A: I returned after two hours and they were all dead.
Q: For what purpose did you go away?
A: That was during lunch hour.
Q: You left for your lunch and came back afterwards?
A: Yes.
Q: Were they dead when you came back?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you look at their bodies?
A: Yes, because I had to load them.
Q: Why did you apply the gas to the Russians?
A: I only had orders to pour in the gas and I do not know anything
about it.
SS-Doctor Kremer at a hearing on 18 July 1947:
[Quoted in 'The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The
Free Press, NY, 1988, p. 258].
-------------------------------------------------------------------
I remember I once took part in the gassing of one of these groups
of women [from the women's camp in Auschwitz]. I cannot say how
big the group was. when I got close to the bunker I saw them
sitting on the ground. They were still clothed. As they were
wearing worn-out camp clothing they were not left in the undressing
hut but made to undress in the open air. I concluded from the
behavior of these women that they had no doubt what fate awaited
them, as they begged and sobbed to the SS men to spare them their
lives. However, they were herded into the gas chambers and gassed.
As an anatomist I have seen a lot of terrible things: I had had
a lot of experience with dead bodies, and yet what I saw that
day was like nothing I had ever seen before. Still completely
shocked by what I had seen I wrote on my diary on 5 September
1942: "The most dreadful of horrors. Hauptscharfuehrer Thilo was
right when he said to me today that this is the 'anus mundi', the
anal orifice of the world". I used this image because I could not
imagine anything more disgusting and horrific.
Testimony of SS-Oberscharfuehrer Kurt Bolender, In the
Belzec-Oberhauser trial:
[Quoted in "BELZEC, SOBIBOR, TREBLINKA - the Operation Reinhard
Death Camps", Indiana University Press - Yitzhak Arad, 1987, p. 76].
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Before the Jews undressed, Oberscharfuehrer Michel made a speech
to them. On these occasions, he used to wear a white coat to
give the impression that he was a physician. Michel announced to
the Jews that they would be sent to work, but before this they
would have to take baths and undergo disinfection so as to
prevent the spread of diseases... After undressing, the Jews
were taken through the so-called Schlauch. They were led to the
gas chambers not by the Germans but by the Ukrainians...After
the Jews entered the gas chambers, the Ukrainians closed the
doors. The motor which supplied the gas was switched on by
a Ukrainian named Emil and by a German driver called Erich
Bauer from Berlin. After the gassing, the door were opened
and the corpses removed....
Testimony of SS private Boeck:
[Extracted from "Der Auschwitz Prozess", by Hermann Langbein,
Vol. I, quoted in "Auschwitz: Technique and operation of the gas
chambers - J.C Pressac, the Beate Klarsfeld Foundation, NY, 1989,
p. 181].
------------------------------------------------------------------
Q: were you present at a gassing operation one day?
A: Yes, it was one evening. I accompanied the driver Hoeblinger. A
transport had arrived from Holland and the prisoners had to
jump from the wagons. They were well-off Jews. There were
women with Persian furs. They arrived by express train. The
trucks were already there, with wooden steps before them, and
the people climbed aboard. Then they all started off. In the
place Birkenau once stood, there was only a long farmhouse
(Bunker 2) and beside it four or five big huts. Inside, the
people were standing on clothes which were building up on
the floor. The block leader and the sergeant, carrying a cane,
were there. Hoeblinger said to me 'lets go over there now'. There
was a sign 'to disinfection'. He said 'you see, they are bringing
children now'. They opened the door, threw the children in
and closed the door. There was a terrible cry. A member of the
SS climbed on the roof. The people went on crying for about
ten minutes. Then the prisoners opened the doors. Everything
was in disorder and contorted. Heat was given off. the bodies
were loaded on a rough wagon and taken to a ditch. The next
batch were already undressing in the huts. After that I didn't
look at my wife for four weeks.
Testimony of Brack, regarding gassing of insane people in Germany
[Quoted in "Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military
Tribunals" - Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1949-1953, Vol. I,
p. 876-886].
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Q: Witness, when adult persons were selected for euthanasia and sent
by transport to euthanasia stations for that purpose, by what
methods were the mercy deaths given?
A: The patients went to a euthanasia institution after the written
formalities were concluded - I need not repeat these formalities
here, they were physical examinations, comparison of the files,
etc. The the patients were led to a gas chamber and were there
killed by the doctors with carbon monoxide gas (CO).
Q: Where was that carbon monoxide obtained, by what process?
A: It was in a compressed gas container, like a steel oxygen
container, such as is used for welding - a hollow steel
container.
Q: And these people were placed in this chamber in groups, I
suppose, and then the carbon monoxide was turned into the
chambers?
A: Perhaps I had better explain this in some detail. Bouhler's
basic requirement was that the killing should not only be
painless, but also imperceptible. For this reason, the
photographing of the patients, which was only done for
scientific reasons, took place before they entered the
chambers, and the patients were completely diverted thereby.
Then they were led into the gas chamber which they were
told was a shower room. They were in groups of perhaps
20 or 30. They were gassed by the doctor in charge.
.
.
.
Q. What was done with the bodies of these people after mercy deaths
were given?
A. When the room had been cleared of gas again, stretchers were
brought in and the bodies were carried into an adjoining
room. There the doctor examined them to determine whether they
were dead.
Q. Then what happened to the bodies?
A. After the doctor had determined death, he freed the bodies for
cremation and they were cremated.
Q. After he had freed the bodies, had determined that they were
dead, they were then cremated? Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. There was a crematory built for every one of these institutions?
A. Yes. Crematoriums were built in the institutions.
.
.
.
Q. And these people thought that they were going in to take a shower
bath?
A. If any of them had any power of reasoning, they had no doubt
thought that.
Q. Well now, were they taken into the shower rooms with their
clothes on or were they nude?
A. No. They were nude.
Q. In every case?
A. Whenever I saw them, yes.
SS-man Theodor Malzmueller on the Chelmno extermination camp
[Quoted in 'The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The
Free Press, NY, 1988., p. 217-219]
-----------------------------------------------------------------
When we arrived we had to report to the camp commandant,
SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Bothmann. The SS-Haupsturmfuehrer addressed us in
his living quarters, in the presence of SS-Untersturmfuehrer Albert
Plate. He explained that we had been dedicated to the Kulmhof
[Chelmno] extermination camp as guards and added that in this camp the
plague boils of humanity, the Jews, were exterminated. We were to
keep quiet about everything we saw or heard, otherwise we would have
to reckon with our families' imprisonment and the death penalty...
The extermination camp was made up of the so-called "castle" and the
camp in the woods. The castle was a fairly large stone building at the
edge of the village of Kulmhof. It was there that the Jews who had
been transported by lorry or railway were first brought...
When a lorry arrived the following members of the SS-Sonderkommando
addresses the Jews: (1) camp commandant Bothmann, (2) Untersturmfuehrer
Albert Plate from North Germany, (3) Polizei-Meister Willy Lenz from
Silesia, (4) Polizei-Meister Alois Haeberle from Wuerttenberg. They
explained to the Jews that they would first of all be given a bath and
deloused in Kulmhof and then sent to Germany to work. The Jews then
went inside the castle. There they had to get undressed. After this
they were sent through a passage-way on to a ramp to the castle yard
where the so-called "gas-van" was parked. The back door of the van
would be open. The Jews were made to get inside the van. This job was
done by three Poles, who I believe were sentenced to death. The Poles
hit the Jews with whips if they did not get into the gas vans fast
enough. When all the Jews were inside the door was bolted. The driver
then switched on the engine, crawled under the van and connected a
pipe from the exhaust to the inside of the van. The exhaust fumes now
poured into the inside of the truck so that the people inside were
suffocated...
Testimony of gas-van driver Walter Burmeister
[Quoted in 'The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The
Free Press, NY, 1988., p. 219-220]
------------------------------------------------------------
As soon as the ramp had been erected in the castle, people started
arriving in Kulmhof from Lizmannstadt in lorries... The people were
told that they had to take a bath, that their clothes had to be
disinfected and that they could hand in any valuable items beforehand
to be registered...
When they had undressed they were sent to the cellar of the castle and
then along a passageway on to the ramp and from there into the
gas-van. In the castle there were signs marked "to the baths". The gas
vans were large vans, about 4-5 meters long, 2.2 meter wide and 2
meter high. The interior walls were lined with sheet metal. On the
floor there was a wooden grille. The floor of the van had an opening
which could be connected to the exhaust by means of a removable metal
pipe. When the lorries were full of people the double doors at the
back were closed and the exhaust connected to the interior of the
van...
The Kommando member detailed as driver would start the engine right
away so that the people inside the lorry were suffocated by the
exhaust gases. Once this had taken place, the union between the
exhaust and the inside of the lorry was disconnected and the van was
driven to the camp in the woods were the bodies were unloaded. In the
early days they were initially burned in mass graves, later
incinerated... I then drove the van back to the castle and parked it
there. Here it would be cleaned of the excretions of the people that
had died in it. Afterwards it would once again be used for gassing...
I can no longer say what I thought at the time or whether I thought of
anything at all. I can also no longer say today whether I was too
influenced by the propaganda of the time to have refused to have
carried out the orders I had been given.
>From the interrogation of Adolf Eichmann
[Quoted in 'The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The
Free Press, NY, 1988., p. 221-222]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
A. I just know the following, that I only saw the following: a room,
if I still recall correctly, perhaps five times as big as this one,
or it may have been four times as big. There were Jews inside it,
they had to get undressed and then a van, completely sealed, drew
up to the ramp in front of the entrance. The naked Jews then had to
get inside. Then the lorry was closed and it drove off.
Q. How many people did the van hold?
A. I can't say exactly. I couldn't bring myself to look closely, even
once. I didn't look inside the entire time. I couldn't, no, I
couldn't take any more. The screaming and, and, I was too upset
and so on. I also said that to [SS-Obergruppenfuehrer] Mueller when
I submitted my report. He did not get much from my report. I then
followed the van - I must have been with some of the people from
there who knew the way. Then I saw the most horrifying thing I have
ever seen in my entire life.
The van drove up to a long trench, the door was opened and bodies
thrown out. They still seemed alive, their limbs were so supple.
They were thrown in, I can still remember a civilian pulling out
teeth with some pliers and then I just got the hell out of there.
I got into the car, went off and did not say anything else... I'd had
more than I could take. I only know that a doctor there in a white
coat said to me that I should look through a peep-hole at them in
the lorry. I refused to do that. I could not, I could not say anything,
I had to get away.
I went to Berlin, reported to Gruppenfuehrer Mueller. I told him
exactly what I've just said, there wasn't any more I could tell him...
terrible...I'm telling you... the inferno, can't, that is, I can't
take this, I said to him.
SS-Untersturmfuehrer Oberhauser on the death camp at Belzec
[Quoted in 'The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The
Free Press, NY, 1988., p. 228-230]
----------------------------------------------------------------
The camp of Belzec was situated north-east of the Tomaszo'w to Lemberg
[Lvov] road beyond the village of Belzec. As the camp needed a siding
for the arriving transports the camp was built about 400 meters from
Belzec station. The camp itself was divided into two sections: section
1 and section 2. The siding led directly from Belzec station into
section 2 of the camp, in which the undressing barracks as well as the
gas installations and the burial field were situated...
The gassing of Jews which took place in Belzec camp up till 1 August
1942 can be divided into two phases. During the first series of
experiments there were two to three transports consisting of four to
six freight cars each holding twenty to forty persons. On the average
150 Jews were delivered and killed per transport. At that stage the
gassings were not yet part of a systematic eradication action but were
carried out to test and study closely the camp's capacity and the
technical problems involved in carrying out a gassing...
At the beginning of May 1942 SS-Oberfuehrer Brack from the Fuehrer's
chancellery suddenly came to Lublin. With Globocnik he discussed
resuming the extermination of the Jews. Globocnik said he had too few
people to carry out this programme. Brack stated that the euthanasia
programme had stopped and that the people from T4 would from now on be
detailed to him on a regular basis so that the decisions taken at the
Wannsee conference could be implemented. As it appeared that it would
not be possible for the Einsatzgruppen to clear individual areas of
Jews and the people in the large ghettos of Warsaw and Lemberg by
shooting them, the decision had been taken to set up two further
extermination camps which would be ready by 1 August 1942, namely
Treblinka and Sobibor. The large-scale extermination programme
[Vernichtungsaktion] was due to start on 1 August 1942.
About a week after Brack had come to Globocnik, Wirth and his staff
returned to Belzec. The second series of experiments went on until
1 August 1942. During this period a total of five to six transports
(as far as I am aware) consisting of five to seven freight cars
containing thirty to forty people came to Belzec. The Jews from two
of these transports were gassed in the small chamber, but then Wirth
had the gas huts pulled down and built a massive new building with a
much larger capacity. It was here that the Jews from the rest of the
transport were gassed.
During the first experiments and the first set of transports in the
second series of experiments bottled gas was still used for gassing;
however, for the last transports of the second series of experiments
the Jews were killed with the exhaust gases from a tank or lorry
engine which was operated by Hackenholt.
Professor Wilhelm Pfannenstiel, Waffen-SS hygienist, on a gassing
at Belzec
[Quoted in 'The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The
Free Press, NY, 1988., p. 238-244]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
When I am asked about executions of Jews I must confirm that on 19 August
1942 I witnessed an execution of Jews at Belzec extermination camp. I
would like to describe how I came to be there. During my conversations
with SS-Brigadefuehrer Globocnik, he told me about the large
spinning-mills that he had set up in Belzec. He also mentioned that
work at this camp would considerably outstrip German production. When
I asked him where the spinning materials came from, he told me proudly
that they had come from the Jews. At this point he also mentioned the
extermination actions against the Jews, who for the most part were
killed at the the camp at Belzec...
During this first visit I was taken to around by a certain
Polizieihauptmann named Wirth, who also showed and explained to me the
extermination installations at the camp. He told me that the following
morning a new transport of about 500 Jews would be arriving at the
camp who would be channeled through these extermination chambers. He
asked me whether I would like to watch one of these extermination
actions, to which, after a great deal of reflection, I consented. I
planned to submit a report to the Reichsarzt-SS about the
extermination actions. In order to write a report I had, however,
first to observe an action with my own eyes. I remained in the camp,
spent the night there and was witness to the following events the next
morning.
A goods train traveled directly into the camp of Belzec, the freight
cars were opened and Jews whom I believe were from the area of Romania
or Hungary were unloaded. The cars were crammed fairly full. There
were men, women and children of every age. They were ordered to get
into line and then had to proceed to an assembly area and take off
their shoes...
After the Jews had removed their shoes they were separated by sex. The
women went together with the children into a hut. There their hair was
shorn and they had to get undressed... The men went into another hut,
where they received the same treatment. I saw what happened in the
women's hut with my own eyes. After they had undressed, the whole
procedure went fairly quickly. They ran naked from the hut through a
hedge into the actual extermination centre. The whole extermination
centre looked just like a normal delousing institution. In front of
the building there were pots of geraniums and a sign saying "Hackenholt
Foundation", above which there was a star of David. The building was
brightly and pleasantly painted so as not to suggest people would be
killed here...
Inside the buildings, the Jews had to enter chambers into which was
channeled the exhaust of a [100(?)]-HP engine, located in the same
building. In it there were six such extermination chambers. They were
windowless, had electric lights and two doors. One door led outside so
that the bodies could be removed. People were led from a corridor
into the chambers through an ordinary air-tight door with bolts. There
was a glass peep-hole, as I recall, next to the door in the wall.
Through this window one could watch what was happening inside the room
but only when it was not too full of people. After a short time the
glass became steamed up. When the people had been locked in the room
the motor was switched on and then I suppose the stop-valves or vents
to the chambers opened. Whether they were stop-valves or vents I
would not like to say. It is possible that the pipe led led directly
to the chambers. Once the engine was running, the light in the
chambers was switched off. This was followed by palpable disquiet in
the chamber. In my view it was only then that the people sensed
something else was in store for them. It seemed to me that behind the
thick walls and door they were praying and shouting for help.
-Danny Keren.
From oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!news1.digex.net!access.digex.net!not-for-mail Thu Jul 28 10:37:36 PDT 1994
Article: 14333 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Real Lesson of the Holocaust
Date: 27 Jul 1994 13:08:41 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <3164ap$k80@access2.digex.net>
References: <30vcvu$6h5@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net
In article ,
Greg Raven wrote:
>>[...] When
>> called on to explain the Nazis use of poisonous Zyklon-B gas, Smith declared
>> that they were merely 'disinfecting' Jewish prisoners.
>
>Virtually everyone agrees that Zyklon B was used for purposes of
>disinfection.
Virtually everyone agrees that knives are used for the purpose of
cutting food. Does Mr. Raven believe this proves that knives have
therefore never been used to murder people? (If so, how, did O. J.
Simpson's ex-wife die?)
If Mr. Raven does not believe in this logic, then his statement has no
relevance on the discussion. (So why did he make it?)
Would Mr. Raven consent to having his body disinfected with Zyklon-B
as an experiment to see if Mr. Smith's assertion that it was used merely
to disinfect prisoners could possibly be true?
To be strictly accurate, Zyklon-B was used for delousing, not
disinfection. It has absolutely no effect on bacteria. But it is
possible that Smith is merely sloppy in his writing, and meant
delousing. Nonetheless, the question remains: is Mr. Raven willing to be
deloused with Zyklon-B to test Mr. Smith's hypothesis?
Oh, and one request for clarification: was it just the Jewish
prisoners who were deloused in this way, or all prisoners? If just the
Jews, why were they subjected to special treatment ("Sonderbehandlung")?
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!alberta!quartz.ucs.ualberta.ca!tribune.usask.ca!decwrl!ames!agate!overload.lbl.gov!lll-winken.llnl.gov!koriel!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!gumby!kzoo!k044477 Thu Jul 28 10:37:37 PDT 1994
Article: 14335 of alt.revisionism
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie R. McCarthy)
Subject: Rerepost: the sorry excuse for a response
Message-ID: <1994Jul27.213052.7124@hobbes.kzoo.edu>
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Organization: Kalamazoo College, Kalamazoo MI 49006
References:
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 1994 21:30:52 GMT
Lines: 697
greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote:
> mstein@access3.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>
> > Welcome back, Greg. Speaking of real evidence, do you have any to
> > offer in response to the reply to your last posting? (I'm sure it can be
> > reposted if you need your memory refreshed.)
>
> I have been too busy to devote any time to the sorry excuses for responses
> to my challenge, but I hope to get to them in the next couple of weeks.
> --
> Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
> Institute for Historical Review/PO Box 2739/Newport Beach, CA 92659
> The Journal of Historical Review, 6 times/year, $40
> The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, $10.00 + $1.00 shipping
To refresh everyone's memory, below I reproduce the "sorry excuse for a
response" that was posted to alt.revisionism on May 4th.
By some coincidence, Mr. Raven is hard-pressed for time when it is most
convenient for him to be so. He has posted twelve messages to
alt.revisionism between April and June.
April 16: 3 articles totalling 12 lines of nonquoted text
April 18: 3 articles totalling 27 lines of nonquoted text
April 20: 1 article totalling 40 lines of nonquoted text (his challenge)
April 21: 2 articles totalling 10 lines of nonquoted text
April 26: 1 article totalling 167 lines of nonquoted text
On May 4th, the "sorry excuse for a response" was posted, but Mr. Raven says
that he did not see it due to technical difficulties.
May 11: 1 article totalling 62 lines of nonquoted text
June 5: 1 article totalling 1 line of nonquoted text
On June 6th, the "sorry excuse for a response" was reposted and emailed
to Mr. Raven. He has not posted to alt.revisionism from that day until
today.
Allow me to repeat two paragraphs from the "sorry excuse for a response,"
below. First, I ask Mr. Raven to respect these wishes of ours:
> We ask Mr. Raven to please apply himself first to document one. When he
> has finished attempting to convince his audience that document one does
> not suit his needs, then he may proceed on to document two, and so on
> until he reaches the end of the list. We would hope that Mr. Raven would
> limit his answers to one document per posted article, to facilitate any
> further discussion that may take place, and that he would enumerate his
> points, as we have done here. As we say - we welcome focus.
Finally, I stress:
> Again - and most importantly - we ask Mr. Raven to provide us with what he
> thinks are the one or two best pieces of evidence that the Nazis did _not_
> exterminate millions of people in homicidal gas chambers.
I emphasize again that this is the most important issue, which is why it
is discussed under point one below.
Date: Wed, 4 May 1994 18:33:36 GMT
From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie R. McCarthy)
Subject: A response to Greg Raven's request
Message-ID: <1994May4.183336.1331@hobbes.kzoo.edu>
On April 20th, Greg Raven posted a challenge. He asserted, without
evidence, that the Holocaust never happened - and he challenged those
of us who disagree to _prove_otherwise_!
Things are certainly getting interesting, now that the Institute for
Historical Review has an important member on the net. Perhaps, soon, the
Flat-Earth Society will enter into sci.geology discussions and ask the
participants to "provide evidence" that the planet is a sphere. Then, the
editorial board of the National Enquirer will ask the readers of rec.music
to "provide evidence" that Elvis is not being held in suspended animation
at the North Pole by space aliens.
But preposterous challenges like those could be simply cross-posted to
alt.usenet.kooks and laughed off. Sadly, the equally-preposterous
claims of Greg Raven and his compatriots cannot. They are a serious
matter, and must be addressed seriously.
Greg Raven wrote:
>...I would like to get this
>discussion back on track, at least as far as Holocaust revisionism is
>concerned..... To this end, I would like to make a few simple statements
>concerning my position, and then ask for a fairly specific response, in
>order to prevent a splintering of discussions and energies.
We welcome focus. Education is our goal, and confusion hinders education.
>First, I do not deny the Holocaust happened. Let me repeat that. I do not
>deny the Holocaust happened. For the purposes of this discussion, I am
>using a fairly generic definition of the word "Holocaust," which is "the
>murder of six million Jews as a central act of state by the Nazis during
>the Second World War, many in gas chambers." If anyone has a problem with
>this definition, I invite you to provide your version.
>
>Second, here is what Holocaust revisionists REALLY say: The Jews of Europe
>suffered a great tragedy before and during the Second World War. Many were
>mistreated, and many died under horrific conditions. However, a) there is
>no evidence that the Nazis had a plan or policy of exterminating the Jews,
>b) there is no evidence that there were homicidal gas chambers for murder
>Jews, and c) the figure of six million Jewish victims is an exaggeration.
>
>I imagine that some of you will take exception to at least some of these
>statements. What I ask from those who do is simply this: Provide me with
>what you think is the one or two best pieces of evidence that the Nazis had
>a plan to exterminate millions of Jews in homicidal gas chambers. Once you
>provide what you think is the best evidence, I will respond.
>
>You will note that I do not want long collages consisting of snippets of
>speeches, fragments of documents, etc. I want one or two pieces of
>evidence. I will not consider personal attacks, discussions of race,
>discussions about the meta-meaning of Holocaust "denial," or other
>non-substantive, off-topic posts to address the issue at hand. I look
>forward to hearing from all who have something to say.
>
>P.S. I do not have a lot of time to put into this discussion, but I will do
>the best I can. I hope you understand, and try not to get too surly with me
>if I skip a day or two while I attempt to meet my many deadlines.
>
>Greg Raven
>greg.ihr@kaiwan.com
Point one:
It is not for _Raven_ to be challenging _us_.
No reputable historian believes the claims in his fourth paragraph - that
much quickly becomes clear to anyone taking the time to research the
matter. The Holocaust, the deliberate murder of about six million Jews
along with about five million others, is a historical fact, as certain and
undeniable as World War II itself.
Suppose a competent adult said to you "I do not believe that the United
States ever landed a person on the moon - please present your best
evidence that they did." Where to begin? You would have to begin with
the question that comes to mind, which is "why does this person contradict
every authority on the subject?" We need more information from Mr. Raven.
We need to know why he doubts the thousands of testimonials, the physical
evidence still present half a century later, the confessions, the memos,
the letters, the recordings - the tons upon tons of evidence that
inevitably collects after any historical calamity of such a scale. It is
there, it is irrefutable, why on earth does he doubt its veracity?
Now, of course, we are not naive. We have seen enough of the IHR's
material to guess much of what he will say on any given topic.
But the burden of proof is _his_. Reality does not need to be pinned down
- it's available, in as much detail as desired, to anyone with the time to
visit a library. Mr. Raven's claims, however, are at this point
impossibly, and perhaps deliberately, vague.
Therefore, we pose the question as it should be. What we ask from him
(or anyone who denies the Holocaust) is simply this: provide us with what
he thinks are the one or two best pieces of evidence that the Nazis did
_not_ exterminate millions of people in homicidal gas chambers. Once he
provides what he thinks is the best evidence, we will respond.
For the last two years, repeatedly, Jamie McCarthy has been asking this
question of Dan Gannon, both on Usenet and on Gannon's personal BBS. He
has yet to receive an answer. We hope Mr. Raven will better assist us.
Point two:
In his efforts to whitewash Holocaust-denial, Mr. Raven has posted a
glaring contradiction, perhaps without even noticing that he's done so.
His third paragraph defines "Holocaust" as "the murder of six million Jews
as a central act of state by the Nazis during the Second World War, many
in gas chambers." (This definition will suffice, but we will concern
ourselves with _all_ the victims of the Nazi mass murderers - they took
the lives of about five million non-Jews, as well.) And he writes, twice,
"I do not deny the Holocaust happened."
Then, in his fourth paragraph, he denies the Holocaust happened. He writes
that "there is no evidence that the Nazis had a plan or policy of
exterminating the Jews." He writes that "there is no evidence that there
were homicidal gas chambers for murder [sic] Jews." And he writes that
"the figure of six million Jewish victims is an exaggeration."
One wonders how he will reconcile these two opposing viewpoints.
We suspect that he would like us to believe that he does not deny the
Holocaust - rather, that he merely has an "open mind" on the subject,
and is simply waiting to see sufficient evidence either way.
Of course, that would fool no one. The readers of alt.revisionism have
seen Mr. Raven's name on enough articles from the IHR to know what his
beliefs are. They've read comments from him on the GEnie network saying
that Hitler was a "great man, the best thing that could have happened to
Germany." His mind is clearly made up.
What should we think if we encountered someone who claimed: "Based on
intense studies for the last twenty years, I do not believe that the
United States ever landed a person on the moon - but my mind is open on
the subject." We would conclude, of course: that person is not merely
wrong, that person is also deliberately misrepresenting his or her
beliefs, for some reason.
Point three:
We understand Raven's plea that he does not have "a lot of time to put into
this discussion." We know where he's coming from. We have full-time
occupations that demand most of our schedule. All of our efforts to
combat Holocaust-denial are in our spare time; none of us has been paid a
dime for doing it.
Greg Raven, on the other hand, is an editor at the Institute for Historical
Review, the largest Holocaust-denial-promoting organization in the world.
His email address is "greg.ihr". He are unquestionably a professional at
this - he does it for a living. We wonder how much he gets paid.
And, we hope he won't use his other commitments as an excuse to back out of
this discussion.
Point four:
As we say - this is a serious matter, and must be dealt with seriously.
We know the Holocaust happened; it's undeniable. "How do we know?" is a
valid question - it's more of an epistemological than a historical
question, but it's valid nonetheless. "How do we know that Washington was
the first President of the United States?" is an equally valid question.
We know because we have _tremendous_ amounts of evidence telling us so.
Greg Raven has, in just a few weeks' time on Usenet, already exhibited
a tendency to downplay the amount of evidence. This is one of the basic
tricks of Holocaust-deniers: change the word "tremendous" above to
"not much," and hope no one will notice. Then, attack the "not much."
For example, he wrote (through Ross Vicksell): "The Germans were quite
good about documenting everything else (we know almost to the penny how
much they spent on dog kennels, for example), yet nothing about an
extermination program." This is a lie: we know a _tremendous_ amount
about the details of the various extermination programs.
When presented with a list of thirty-five books of documentation, Greg's
response was "Obviously, I cannot respond to each document contained in
all these books you mention. Please select one document...."
No, Mr. Raven is right - he _can't_ respond to each document. There is
simply too much evidence. It's overwhelming, it's too much for even
specialized historians to take it all in. The simple fact is, we know too
much about that period of history for him or anyone else to deny it.
We want to stress this fact. We will provide documents to examine, and we
will even tell Mr. Raven in which order he is to examine them. But we
could spend years doing it and barely scratch the surface. He has asked
us twice now to pick a single solitary document - to squabble over a tide
pool, and ignore the vast ocean.
Suppose we gave him a memo from Hitler detailing a plan to exterminate
millions of Jews, and suppose he proved conclusively that it was a
forgery. What would he have proved? Nothing. Nothing at all.
D.J. Schaeffer anticipated this possibility on April 21st, when he
addressed Mr. Raven, saying:
> I suspect that what you want is the opportunity to knock down individual
> documents, and declare a revisionist "victory" by virtue of having
> eliminated the "best evidence." As Barry Shein has pointed out here,
> however, unless you can eliminate every eyewitness testimony, every
> document, every piece of evidence, then you have not disproved the
> Holocaust.
It's worth noting that Schaeffer also pointed out Raven's contradiction,
our point two above. And yet Raven dismissed Schaeffer's entire article
as "meaningless." It is not, of course, meaningless - it's true, and it's
meaningful. It's just that Mr. Raven does not like the implications.
Mr. Raven wants to channel "tremendous" into a few documents' worth of "not
much," and then deal only with those documents. He expects that he'll be
able to quibble about the translations of a few words, ask a few questions
about authenticity, and then declare that he's cast doubt on all of them,
and that, Q.E.D., the "best evidence" for the Holocaust is untrustworthy.
Of course, we all know that won't wash. Anyone could disprove anything
this way. Let's try an example, shall we? We'll ask for one or two
pieces of "best evidence" that Americans landed on the moon. Let's say
we're handed a videotape of the event and testimony from Neil Armstrong
himself. We question the authenticity of the tape (black and white
pictures are easily forged, just look at the film _2001_) and the
qualifications of the witness (any grounds will do). Instantly, we've cast
doubt upon the "best evidence" for the moon landing - and if this is the
_best_ evidence, why all the rest of it must be even _less_ trustworthy!
(It is, incidentally, perfectly acceptable for _us_ to ask _Raven_ for one
or two pieces of evidence. His case consists solely of trying to "knock
holes" in the existing body of research. The IHR's numerous claims are,
for the most part, totally independent of one another - they are attacks
upon what is known, but they do not join together into a cohesive theory
of what _did_ happen to those eleven million people in the early 1940s.
The case of the Holocaust-deniers is nothing but artillery shells fired at
the establishment, and there's nothing wrong with us asking them to name
which of those shells they find most effective. But they won't want to
pick any one of them, because, upon examination, they all turn out to be
made of marshmallows, and their only viable strategy is to keep firing
more and more of them.)
We have not gone into detail about the moon landing, whereas Mr. Raven and
his colleagues have nothing _but_ details. That is the only difference
between our example and the technique used by Holocaust-deniers.
We would hope that any reasonable observer, and indeed most unreasonable
ones, would be too smart to fall for such a simple trick, and that there
would be no need to waste time with answers to such sophistry.
Unfortunately, that is exactly what Hitler's "Big Lie" technique counted
on - repeat a charge loud enough and often enough, hoping that any lack of
response will lead people to conclude that it must therefore be true. It
is for this reason, and this reason alone, that we respond to Greg Raven
and his ilk.
So, we will indeed give him a document which we feel fairly represents the
massive collection of conclusive evidence that the Holocaust happened. And
then we will give him another. And another, and another - because they
are all evidence: statements from Hoess and Himmler and Boeck and Broad
and Kremer and Glowakci and others involved in the process, eyewitness
accounts from Wiesenthal and Kogon and Wiesel and Buki and the Paisikovics
and Mueller and Dragon and Rosenblum and Nyizli and Silberberg and
Mandelbaum and the thousands upon tens of thousands of relatively-unknown
others, plans for the chambers, plans for the vehicles, orders for the
equipment, inventories of the Krematoria, letters to the government,
letters from the government, letters between government officials,
memorandums, reports, diagrams, charts, speeches, statistics, diaries...
We are quite sure that he will attempt to explain away as many of these as
he can. But this is one of his main errors: while one or two die throws
cannot conclusively prove that the dice are loaded, one hundred thousand
consecutive throws of 7 cannot possibly be anything but. And each time he
makes this error, or commits some other fallacy, or makes another
unsubstantiated assertion, or contradicts himself, we will be there to
point it out.
We encourage him to waste as much time as he likes, but we'll warn him:
there is too much evidence, and we've seen all his tricks. He can't win.
Following are documents that demonstrate that, in his words, "the Nazis had
a plan to exterminate millions of Jews in homicidal gas chambers." Please
note that several of them refer instead to the plan actually being carried
out, a technical quibble which we hope Mr. Raven will forgive.
We ask Mr. Raven to please apply himself first to document one. When he
has finished attempting to convince his audience that document one does
not suit his needs, then he may proceed on to document two, and so on
until he reaches the end of the list. We would hope that Mr. Raven would
limit his answers to one document per posted article, to facilitate any
further discussion that may take place, and that he would enumerate his
points, as we have done here. As we say - we welcome focus.
Document one:
We begin with the document that was presented to the Nazi Ernst Zuendel on
the "60 Minutes" television show. It is a speech delivered by Heinrich
Himmler. The speech was both transcribed and recorded; we have the
recording in the national archives in Washington, D.C., and we have
Himmler's notes for the speech. Indeed, most Holocaust-deniers accept
this document as valid (with the notable exception of our own Milton
"Hermann" Kleim).
The speech is quite famous and its text may be found in many sources,
for example in the book _Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg
Military Tribunals_, published by the U.S. Government Printing Office,
1949-1953.
Speeches by Reichsfuehrer-SS Himmler before senior SS officers in Poznan.
October 4 and 6, 1943.
I am referring here to the evacuation of the Jews, the elimination
of the Jewish people. This is one of the things that is easily said:
"The Jewish people are going to be exterminated," that's what every
party member says, "sure, it's in our program, elimination of the
Jews, extermination - it'll be done." And then they all come along,
the 80 million worthy Germans, and each one has his one decent Jew.
Of course, the others are swine, but this one, he is a first-rate
Jew. Of all those who talk like this, not one has seen it happen,
not one has had to go through with it. Most of you men know what
it is like to see 100 corpses side by side, or 500, or 1000. To have
stood fast through this and - except for cases of human weakness - to
have stayed decent, that has made us hard.
I ask of you that what I say in this circle you really only hear and
never speak about. We come to the question: how is it with the women
and children? I have resolved even here on a completely clear
solution. That is to say, I do not consider myself justified in
eradicating the men - so to speak killing or ordering them killed
- and allowing the children to grow up and avenge our sons and
grandsons. The difficult decision has to be taken, to cause this
race to disappear from the earth.
Document two:
>From the book _Hitler and the Final Solution_ by G. Fleming, University of
California Press, 1984, p. 142.
Report entitled "Resettlement of Jews" written by SS-Sturmbannfuehrer
Gricksch for SS-Col. von Herff and Reichsfuehrer-SS Himmler, after
inspection of the Auschwitz camp on May 14-16, 1943.
The unfit go to cellars in a large house which are entered from
outside. They go down five or six steps into a fairly long,
well-constructed and well-ventilated cellar area, which is lined with
benches to the left and right. It is brightly lit, and the benches
are numbered. The prisoners are told that they are to be cleansed
and disinfected for their new assignments. They must therefore
completely undress to be bathed. To avoid panic and to prevent
disturbances of any kind, they are instructed to arrange their
clothing neatly under their respective numbers, so that they will
be able to find their things again after their bath. Everything
proceeds in a perfectly orderly fashion. Then they pass through
a small corridor and enter a large cellar room which resembles a
shower bath. In this room are three large pillars, into which
certain materials can be lowered from outside the cellar room. When
three- to four-hundred people have been herded into this room, the
doors are shut, and containers filled with the substances are dropped
down into the pillars. As soon as the containers touch the base
of the pillars, they release particular substances that put the
people to sleep in one minute. A few minutes later, the door opens on
the other side, where the elevator is located.... Then the corpses
are loaded into elevators and brought up to the first floor, where
ten large crematoria are located. (Because fresh corpses burn
particularly well, only 50-100 lbs. of coke are needed for the whole
process.) The job itself is performed by Jewish prisoners, who never
step outside this camp again.
Document three:
>From the book _The Goebbels Diaries 1942-1943_, edited by L.P. Lochner,
Doubleday & Co., 1948, p. 86.
Goebbels' diary, February 14, 1942.
World Jewry will suffer a great catastrophe at the same time as
Bolshevism. The Fuehrer once more expressed his determination to
clean up the Jews in Europe pitilessly. There must be no squeamish
sentimentalism about it. The Jews have deserved the catastrophe that
has now overtaken them. Their destruction will now go hand in hand
with the destruction of our enemies. We must hasten this process
with cold ruthlessness.
March 26, 1942.
Beginning with Lublin, the Jews in the general government [Poland] are
now being evacuated eastward. The procedure is a pretty barbaric one
and not to be described here more definitely. Not much will remain
of the Jews. On the whole it can be said that about 60 per cent
of them will have to be liquidated whereas only 40 per cent can
be used for forced labor.
Document four:
Hoess' memoirs describe the gassing process clearly and unambiguously in
many places. Here is one example. The memoirs were published, among
other places, in the book _Kommandant in Auschwitz_, by Rudolf Hoess,
Deutsche Verlagsanstalt, Stuttgart, 1958. English translation _Commandant
of Auschwitz: the Autobiography of Rudolf Hoess_, World Press, Cleveland,
1959, p. 123f.
On the railroad ramp the Jews, who up till then had been under the
supervision of the state police, were taken over by a squad from the
camp. They were led by the head of the detention camp, in two
detachments, to the bunker. That was what we called the extermination
installations. The luggage stayed on the ramp, from where it was
carried to the sorting area - called Kanada - between the buildings
of the DAW [weapons factory] and the courtyard. The Jews had to
undress near the bunker. They were told that they had to go into
what were called delousing rooms. All these rooms, five in all, were
filled simultaneously. The doors were hermetically sealed, and the
contents of the cans of gas were dropped in through the holes in the
ceiling provided for this purpose.
Half an hour later the doors were opened; there were two in each
room. The corpses were removed and taken to the ditches on tip wagons
that ran on rails. Trucks carried the clothes to the sorting area.
All the work, including help in undressing, filling the bunker,
emptying the bunker, burying the corpses, as well as digging and
filling up the mass graves, was done by a special detail of Jews who
were housed separately and who, in accordance with Eichmann's
instructions, were also exterminated after each big operation.
Document five:
Hoess not only wrote many pages detailing the extermination effort, he
testified about it under oath. This segment of that testimony is quoted
in _Documents on Nazism, 1919-1945_, edited by Jeremy Noakes and G.
Pridham, Viking Press, New York, 1974, pp. 490-1.
The 'final solution' of the Jewish question meant the complete
extermination of all Jews in Europe. I was ordered to establish
extermination facilities at Auschwitz in June 1942. At that time,
there were already in the Generalgouvernement [the area of Poland not
incorporated into Germany or Russia] three other extermination camps
- Belzec, Treblinka, and Wolzek. These camps were under the command
of the task forces of the Security Police and SD. I visited
Treblinka to find out how they carried out their extermination. The
Camp Commandant at Treblinka told me that he had liquidated 80,000 in
the course of six months. He was principally concerned with
liquidating all the Jews from the Warsaw ghetto. He used monoxide
gas and I did not think that his methods were very efficient. So
when I set up the extermination building at Auschwitz, I used Cyclon
B, which was a crystallized prussic acid which we dropped into the
death chamber from a small opening. It took from three to fifteen
minutes to kill the people in the death chamber, depending upon
climatic conditions. We knew when the people were dead because their
screaming stopped. We usually waited about half an hour before we
opened the doors and removed the bodies. After the bodies were
removed our special squads took off the rings and extracted the gold
from the teeth of the corpses.
Another improvement on Treblinka that we made was building our gas
chambers to accomodate 2000 people at a time, whereas at Treblinka
their ten gas chambers only accomodated 200 people each. The way we
selected our victims was as follows: we had two SS doctors on duty at
Auschwitz to examine the incoming transports of prisoners. The
prisoners would be marched past one of the doctors who would make
spot decisions as they walked by. Those who were fit to work were
sent into the camp. Others were sent immediately to the
extermination plants. Children of tender years were invariably
exterminated since by reason of their youth they were unable to work.
Still another improvement made on Treblinka was that at Treblinka the
victims almost always knew that they were about to be exterminated
whereas at Auschwitz we endeavoured to fool the victims into thinking
that they were to go through a delousing process. Of course, they
often realized our true intentions and owing to that we sometimes had
riots and difficulties. Very often women would hide their children
under the clothes but of course when we found them we would send the
children in to be exterminated. We were required to carry out these
exterminations in secrecy but of course the foul and nauseating
stench from the continuous burning of bodies permeated the entire
area and all the people living in the surrounding communities knew
that exterminations were going on at Auschwitz.
Document six:
>From the book _The Good Old Days_, by Ernst Klee, W. Dressen, and V. Riess,
The Free Press, NY, 1988, p. 68.
Ereignismlrdung UdSSR No. 128 [Operational Situation Report from the USSR
No. 128], November 3, 1941.
In Kiev, difficulties that arose during the execution of a major
action of this type - particularly with regard to registration - were
overcome by the use of posters annoncing that all Jews were to report
for resettlement. Although it was initially thought that the action
would only involve 5,000 to 6,000 Jews, more than 30,000 Jews
reported, who as a result of extremely efficient organization still
believed they were going to be resettled right up untill the time
they were executed.
Despite that fact that up to now a total of some 75,000 Jews have been
liquidated in this way, it has nevertheless become apparent that this
method will not provide a solution to the Jewish problem.
Document seven:
>From the book _The Final Solution: The Attempt to Exterminate the Jews of
Europe, 1939-1945_, by G. Reitlinger and T. Yosellof, South Brunswick,
1968.
Letter from SS Major-General Stahlecker to SS General Heydrich,
January 31, 1942.
The complete removal of Jewry from the eastern territories has been
substantially attained, with the exception of white Russia, as a
result of the execution up to the present time of 229,052 Jews.
Document eight:
>From the book _Trente-quatre mois dans les camps de concentration_
(Thirty-four months in the concentration camps), by Dr. Andre' Lettich,
L'Union Cooperative, Tours, 1946. Translation appears in _Nazi Mass
Murder_, by Eugen Kogon, H. Langbein, and A. Rueckerl,
Yale University Press, New Haven and London, 1993, pp. 150-151.
Up to the end of January 1943 there were no crematory ovens at
Birkenau. In the middle of a little birch wood, about two
kilometers from the camp, was a peaceful-looking cottage in which
a Polish family, expelled or murdered, had lived. For a long time
this cottage had been used as a gas chamber.
More than five hundred meters from it were two barracks: the men
were grouped on one side, the women on the other. Very politely,
very amiably, a little speech was made to them. "You've arrived
after a trip; you're dirty; you're going to have a bath. Undress
quickly!" Towels and soap were distributed, and then the brutes
revealed themselves in their true colors: with heavy blows this
human herd, these men and women, were driven naked, winter or
summer, across the hundred or so meters that separated them from
the "shower room." Above the entrance door was written "Brausebad"
[showers]. Shower heads could even be seen on the ceiling; they
were cemented in, but water never flowed from them.
These poor innocents were piled up, packed against one another,
and it was then that panic began: they finally understood what
fate awaited them. But blows with clubs and revolver shots quickly
calmed things down, and all finally penetrated this mortal chamber.
The doors were closed and, ten minutes later, the temperature had
risen high enough for the hydrocyanic acid to volatize--it was with
hydrocyanic acid that the condemned were gassed. It was Zyklon B,
diatomite impregnated with a 20 percent solution of hydrocyanic
acid, that the German barbarians used.
Then SS-Unterschardfuehrer Moll dropped the gas through a little
window. The cries that could be heard were frightening, but after
a few moments complete silence reigned. Twenty to twenty-five
minutes later the windows and doors were opened to air the room, and
the corpses were immediately thrown into ditches, where they were
burned.
Document nine:
>From Dr. Johann Kremer's diary, published in _KL Auschwitz in den Augen
der SS_ (Auschwitz in the eyes of the SS), Auschwitz State Museum,
1973, pp. 215-217. Translation appears in _Nazi Mass Murder_, by Eugen
Kogon, H. Langbein, and A. Rueckerl, Yale University Press,
New Haven and London, 1993, pp. 149-150.
On 2 September 1942, at three o'clock in the morning, I was ordered
to take part in a gassing, and I watched it. This mass murder took
place outside the Birkenau camp, in little houses located in the
forest. The SS men called them "bunkers" in their slang. All the
SS doctors in the camp health service took part in these gassings,
each in his turn. As a doctor, my participation in these gassings,
called "special operations," consisted of standing at a spot near
the bunker, ready to intervene should my assistance be necessary.
I was taken there by car. I sat next to the driver, and behind me
was an SS hospital orderly (a noncommissioned officer), provided
with an oxygen tank so as to be able to give first aid to the SS
men taking part in the gassings in case any of them should be
victims of asphyxiation....
I followed one convoy to the bunker. The prisoners were first taken
to barracks where they undressed; from there they went, naked, to
the gas chambers. Most of the time things proceeded calmly, for the
SS men reassured the people by telling them they were going to have
a bath and be deloused. When all had been pushed into a gas
chamber, the door was closed and an SS man wearing a gas mark threw
the contents of a can of gas through an opening in the side wall.
Through this opening we could hear the cries and wailing of the
victims; we could hear their death throes.
Document ten:
>From Dr. Kremer's testimony regarding his diary, published in _The Good
Old Days_, by Ernst Klee, W. Dressen, and V. Riess, The Free Press, New
York, 1988, p. 258.
I remember I once took part in the gassing of one of these groups
of women [from the women's camp in Auschwitz]. I cannot say how big
the group was. When I got close to the bunker I saw them sitting
on the ground. They were still clothed. As they were wearing
worn-out camp clothing they were not left in the undressing hut but
made to undress in the open air. I concluded from the behavior of
these women that they had no doubt what fate awaited them, as they
begged and sobbed to the SS men to spare them their lives. However,
they were herded into the gas chambers and gassed. As an anatomist I
have seen a lot of terrible things: I had had a lot of experience
with dead bodies, and yet what I saw that day was like nothing I had
ever seen before. Still completely shocked by what I had seen I wrote
on my diary on 5 September 1942: "The most dreadful of horrors.
Hauptscharfuehrer Thilo was right when he said to me today that this
is the 'anus mundi', the anal orifice of the world". I used this
image because I could not imagine anything more disgusting and
horrific.
Again - and most importantly - we ask Mr. Raven to provide us with what he
thinks are the one or two best pieces of evidence that the Nazis did _not_
exterminate millions of people in homicidal gas chambers.
Brian Harmon (bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu)
Danny Keren (dzk@cs.brown.edu)
Jamie McCarthy (k044477@kzoo.edu)
Ken McVay (kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca)
Michael Stein (mstein@access.digex.net)
--
Jamie McCarthy Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu AppleLink: j.mccarthy
If your email is related to my job, please send it to mccarthy@lpi.com.
I speak for no one but myself.
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Article: 14345 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Keren's methodology
In-Reply-To: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com's message of Wed, 27 Jul 1994 01:08:33 -0800
Message-ID:
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 1994 03:40:12 GMT
Lines: 70
From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
>For example, one good piece of evidence
>would be a message from an "extermination camp" to Berlin saying, "We have
>gassed the last of the trainloads of Jews as you ordered."
Einsatzgruppe C
Standort Kiev
In collaboration with the group staff and two Kommandos of Police
Regiment South, on 29 and 30 September 1941 Sonderkommando 4a executed
33,771 Jews in Kiev.
Ereignismeldung UdSSR, No. 101, 2 October 1941
During my visit to Kumhof I also saw the extermination installation,
with the lorry which had been set up for killing by means of motor
exhaust fumes. The head of the Kommando told me that this method,
however, was very unreliable, as the gas build-up was very irregular
and was often insufficient for killing.
Rudolf Hoss, Commandant of Auschwitz, on a visit to Chelmno
on 16 September 1942
>From a speech by Adolf Hitler, January 30, 1942, Berlin Sports Palace:
"This war will not end as the Jews imagine, namely, in the liquidation
of all the European and Aryan poeples; the outcome of this war will be
the extermination of Jewry. For the first time it will not be other
nations who will bleed to death. For the first time we will practice
the ancient Jewish law: an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth."
"Commander of the Security Police and the SD
Einsatzkommando 3
Kovno, December 1, 1941
Reich Secret Document
Final Summary of Executions carried out in the operating area of EK 3 up to
December 1, 1941.
...I can confirm today that Einsatzkommando 3 has achieved the goal of
solving the Jewish problem in Lithuania. There are no more Jews in
Lithuania, apart from working Jews and their families.
These number:
in Shavli, about 4,500
in Kovno, about 15,000
in Vilna, about 15,000
I wanted to eliminate the working Jews and their families as well, but the
Civil Administration and the Wehrmacht attacked me sharply and issued a
prohibition against having these Jews and their families shot....
The carrying-out of such Aktionen is first of all an organizational problem.
The decision to clear each sub-district systematically of Jews called for a
thorough preparation for each Aktion and the study of local conditions. The
Jews had to be concentrated in one or more localities and, in accordance
with their numbers, a site had to be selected and pits dug. The marching
distance from the concentration points to the pits averaged 4 to 5 kms. The
Jews were brought to the place of execution in groups of 500, with at least
2 kms. distance between groups...."
--
-Barry Shein
Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD
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Article: 14347 of alt.revisionism
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Keren's methodology
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 1994 22:06:23 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 29
Message-ID:
References: <315k1n$88k@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan.kaiwan.com
In article <315k1n$88k@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
wrote:
> (text deleted)
> Raven mentions documents about the extermination of the Jews. Such
> documents exist, but Raven and his fellow "scholars" claim they
> are all forgeries. Raven, BTW, refuses to specify what his education
> is and whether he has any credentials or reputation as a historian.
I do not claim that all documents are forgeries. And why are you so
interested in personal details about me?
> Raven has a problem - all evidence, be it eyewitness testimonies
> or documents, proves that he is wrong. Unable to cast doubt on
> this evidence, he turns to what is called in the realm of
> mathematics "abstract nonsense", that is, meaningless, vague
> claims which make no sense and which are void of any logical
> content.
Pretty sweeping comment from someone who apparently thinks that a TESTIMONY
about an EXPERIMENTAL gassing of RUSSIAN POW is proof that the Nazis had a
plan to exterminate Jews!
--
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Institute for Historical Review/PO Box 2739/Newport Beach, CA 92659
The Journal of Historical Review, 6 times/year, $40
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, $10.00 + $1.00 shipping
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Article: 14348 of alt.revisionism
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Keren's methodology
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 1994 22:09:53 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 19
Message-ID:
References: <315k1n$88k@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <315pq6$d9t@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan.kaiwan.com
In article <315pq6$d9t@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
wrote:
> Testimony of Dr. Hans W. Muench
> [Trials of War Criminals, Vol. VIII. p. 313-321]
> (text deleted)
I have asked repeatedly for you (and others) to supply the most significant
piece of evidence to support the Holocaust claim that the Nazis had a
policy of exterminating Jews in gas chambers. Do you consider this
testimony to be your best evidence? If so, I will respond to it. If not,
please supply your single best piece of evidence.
--
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Institute for Historical Review/PO Box 2739/Newport Beach, CA 92659
The Journal of Historical Review, 6 times/year, $40
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, $10.00 + $1.00 shipping
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Article: 14349 of alt.revisionism
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: open debate
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 1994 22:13:50 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 29
Message-ID:
References: <30vcc4$no3@access1.digex.net> <314ckc$fk6@search01.news.aol.com> <31630h$jo8@access2.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan.kaiwan.com
In article <31630h$jo8@access2.digex.net>, mstein@access.digex.net (Michael
P. Stein) wrote:
> In article <314ckc$fk6@search01.news.aol.com>,
> BradleyRS wrote:
> >In article <30vcc4$no3@access1.digex.net>, mstein@access1.digex.net
> >(Michael P. Stein) writes:
> >
> >YES.
>
> There is no text of mine quoted in the above post. AOL is known to
> have some deficiencies in the user interface, so it is not clear if the
> above is meant merely as a paraphrase of my answer, or the answer to my
> question (not quoted in Mr. Smith's post) about whether a debate should be
> conducted with facts, logic, consistency, evidence, examination and
> legitimate response to ALL evidence, and honest in-context quotation. I
> ask that Mr. Smith clarify this posting.
Although Bradley scarcely needs me to speak on his behalf, I talked with
him today on the phone and he indicated that he is still getting acclimated
to AOL's version of Internet access. He thought he was answering "yes" to
the bottom of your message, if that helps.
--
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Institute for Historical Review/PO Box 2739/Newport Beach, CA 92659
The Journal of Historical Review, 6 times/year, $40
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, $10.00 + $1.00 shipping
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Article: 14350 of alt.revisionism
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The deliberate starvation policy of Hitler
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 1994 22:15:55 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 42
Message-ID:
References: <2vpbnp$cpq@search01.news.aol.com> <1994Jul1 <1994Jul25.191142.4605@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> <315haq$686@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan.kaiwan.com
In article <315haq$686@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
wrote:
> Greg Raven wrote:
>
> # Let me understand this: Are you saying that you believe there is evidence
> # to support the stories of "human soap" and "human-skin lampshades"?
>
> According to the German "Institute for Contemporary History", some
> SS guards used human skin to make various ornaments, including lampshades.
> As far as I recall this happened in only one camp (Buchenwald). Also, some
> of them had a habit of beheading prisoners and shrinking their heads.
> There are pictures of these shrunken heads (I have a GIF file of one) and
> they can be seen in the movies about the liberation of the camp.
>
> However, such actions were not common.
>
> Re the soap, I yet have to get their material translated (sorry,
> Gordon :-) ).
>
>
> -Danny Keren.
Are you aware of the fact that the shrunken head and "human skin" products
(including lampshades) can be seen in photos reproduced (I believe) in the
red series of Nuremberg documents? This would seem to be the best source,
unless they are in the blue series as well.
Be that as it may, are you aware that the shrunken head has disappeared,
and is nowhere to be found (that is, tested)? Are you aware that forensic
examination of the "human skin" products by American authorities showed the
products to be made of goat skin? Are you aware that there are no extant
examples of "human skin" products that can be tested? A GIF file is hardly
proof that such astonishing accusations against the Germans have any claim
to truth.
--
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Institute for Historical Review/PO Box 2739/Newport Beach, CA 92659
The Journal of Historical Review, 6 times/year, $40
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, $10.00 + $1.00 shipping
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Article: 14351 of alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: The Real Lesson of the Holocaust
Message-ID:
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: <30vcvu$6h5@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> <3164ap$k80@access2.digex.net>
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 1994 05:37:43 GMT
Lines: 15
Both Greg Raven and I have pointed out that none of the $90000 poor abused
Mel Mermelstein got from the IHR had anything to do with the $50000
"reward", and if you don't believe us, it was also acknowledged in the the
trailer of the made-for-TV movie "Never Forget", which starred Leonard
Nimoy as Marvelous Mel.
So please guys, be good sports and lay this old chestnut to rest. In
fact, you might just as well forget about Mel Mermelstein, famous long
ago. (Unless, just for laughs, you want to read "Best Witness" by Michael
Piper. It's available from the Spotlight at (202)546-5611.)
Ross Vicksell
From oneb!kmcvay Thu Jul 28 12:15:05 PDT 1994
Article: 14352 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!kmcvay
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Subject: Raven's Myopia
References: <315k1n$88k@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <315pq6$d9t@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Message-ID: <1994Jul28.181425.3446@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 94 18:14:25 GMT
In article greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:
>I have asked repeatedly for you (and others) to supply the most significant
>piece of evidence to support the Holocaust claim that the Nazis had a
>policy of exterminating Jews in gas chambers. Do you consider this
>testimony to be your best evidence? If so, I will respond to it. If not,
>please supply your single best piece of evidence.
And our response has been posted repeatedly, twice in the past 24
hours, several times during the period from May to July, and you
have continued to ignore it. (It has also been sent to your personal
mailbox, to insure that you saw it.)
Why is that, Mr. Raven?
Do you really think that by continuing to pretend no response has
been made, in spite of the evidence to the contrary, that readers
will believe your challenge has not been answered?
I'm not going to repost it here - I did that yesterday, as did
another user here - but it is available from my server, and I would
also be happy to mail you another copy, since you seem to suffer
from some sort of debilitating myopia with regard to publicly posted
material. (In this, of course, you are not alone - this myopia seems
to infect Mr. Berg and Mr. Gannon as well. Perhaps it is epidemic
among Holocaust deniers... all those conventions, you know.)
--
"Everything I do is done with the full knowledge of the Fuehrer."
(Himmler, Heinrich. See Jochen von Lang, "Der Adjutant: Karl Wolff,"
Munich: Herbig, 1985, pp . 140ff)
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Article: 14353 of alt.revisionism
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Let's hear both sides
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 1994 23:10:29 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 380
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NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan.kaiwan.com
THE HOLOCAUST: Let's Hear Both Sides
By Mark Weber
Just about everyone has heard that the Germans killed some six million Jews
in Europe during the Second World War. American television, motion
pictures, newspapers and magazines hammer away on this theme. In
Washington, DC, an enormous official Holocaust Museum is being built.
Scholars Challenge Holocaust Story
During the past decade, though, more and more "Revisionist" historians,
including respected scholars such as Dr. Arthur Butz of Northwestern
University, Prof. Robert Faurisson of the University of Lyon in France and
best-selling British historian David Irving, have been vigorously
challenging the widely-accepted extermination story.
They do not dispute the fact that large numbers of Jews were deported to
concentration camps and ghettos, or that many Jews died or were killed
during the Second World War. Revisionist scholars have, however, presented
considerable evidence to show that there was no German program to
exterminate Europe's Jews and that the estimate of six million Jewish
wartime dead is an irresponsible exaggeration.
Many Holocaust Claims Abandoned
Revisionists point out that the Holocaust story has changed quite a lot
over the years. Many extermination claims that were once widely accepted
have been quietly dropped in recent years.
At one time it was alleged that the Germans gassed Jews at Dachau,
Buchenwald and other concentration camps in Germany proper. That part of
the extermination story proved so untenable that it was abandoned more than
twenty years ago.
No serious historian now supports the once supposedly proven story of
"extermination camps" in the territory of the old German Reich. Even famed
"Nazi hunter" Simon Wiesenthal acknowledged in 1975 that "there were no
extermination camps on German soil." (note 1)
Prominent Holocaust historians now claim that masses of Jews were gassed at
just six camps in what is now Poland: Auschwitz, Majdanek, Treblinka,
Sobibor, Chelmno and Belzec. However, the "evidence" presented for
"gassings" at these six camps is not qualitatively different than the
"evidence" for alleged "gassings" at the camps in Germany proper.
At the great Nuremberg trial of 1945-1946 and during the decades following
the end of the Second World War, Auschwitz (especially Auschwitz-Birkenau)
and Majdanek (Lublin) were generally regarded as the really important
"death camps." For example, the Allies alleged at Nuremberg that the
Germans killed four million at Auschwitz and another 1.5 million at
Majdanek. Today, no reputable historian accepts these fantastic figures.
In addition, more and more striking evidence has been presented in recent
years which simply cannot be reconciled with the allegations of mass
exterminations at these camps. For example, detailed aerial reconnaissance
photographs taken of Auschwitz-Birkenau on several random days in 1944
(during the height of the alleged extermination period there) were made
public by the CIA in 1979. They show no trace of the piles of corpses,
smoking chimneys and masses of Jews awaiting death, all of which have been
alleged and would have been clearly visible if Auschwitz had indeed been an
extermination center.
We now also know that the postwar "confession" of Auschwitz commandant
Rudolf Hoss, which is a crucial part of the Holocaust extermination story,
was obtained by torture. (note 2)
Other Absurd Holocaust Claims
At one time it was also seriously claimed that the Germans exterminated
Jews with electricity and steam, and that they manufactured soap from
Jewish corpses.
For example, at Nuremberg the United States charged that the Germans killed
Jews at Treblinka, not in gas chambers, as is now claimed, but by steaming
them to death in "steam chambers." (note 3)
These bizarre stories have also been quietly abandoned in recent years.
Disease Claimed Many Inmates
The Holocaust extermination story is superficially plausible. Everyone has
seen the horrific photos of dead and dying inmates taken at Bergen-Belsen,
Nordhausen and other concentration camps when they were liberated by
British and American forces in the final weeks of the war in Europe. These
people were unfortunate victims, not of an extermination program, but of
disease and malnutrition brought on by the complete collapse of Germany in
the final months of the war. Indeed, if there had been an extermination
program, the Jews found by Allied forces at the end of the war would have
long since been killed.
In the face of the advancing Soviet forces, large numbers of Jews were
evacuated during the final months of the war from eastern camps and ghettos
to the remaining camps in western Germany. These camps quickly became
terribly overcrowded, which severely hampered efforts to prevent the spread
of epidemics. Furthermore, the breakdown of the German transportation
system made it impossible to supply adequate food and medicine to the
camps.
Captured German Documents
At the end of the Second World War, the Allies confiscated a tremendous
quantity of German documents dealing with Germany's wartime Jewish policy,
which was sometimes officially referred to as the "final solution." But not
a single German document has ever been found which even refers to an
extermination program. To the contrary, the documents clearly show that the
German "final solution" policy was one of emigration and deportation, not
extermination.
Consider, for example, the confidential German Foreign Office memorandum of
August 21, 1942. (note 4) "The present war gives Germany the opportunity
and also the duty of solving the Jewish problem in Europe," the memorandum
notes. The policy "to promote the evacuation of the Jews [from Europe] in
closest cooperation with the agencies of the Reichsfuehrer SS [Himmler] is
still in force." The memo noted that "the number of Jews deported in this
way to the East did not suffice to cover the labor needs."
The document quotes German Foreign Minister von Ribbentrop as saying that
"at the end of this war, all Jews would have to leave Europe. This was an
unalterable decision of the Fuehrer [Hitler] and also the only way to
master this problem, as only a global and comprehensive solution could be
applied and individual measures would not help very much."
The memorandum concludes by stating that the "deportations [of Jews to the
East] are a further step on the way of the total solution... The
deportation to the [Polish] General Government is a temporary measure. The
Jews will be moved on further to the occupied [Soviet] eastern territories
as soon as the technical conditions for it are given."
This unambiguous document, and others like it, are routinely suppressed or
ignored by those who uphold the Holocaust extermination story.
Unreliable Testimony
Holocaust historians rely heavily on so-called "survivor testimony" to
support the extermination story. But such "evidence" is notoriously
unreliable. As one Jewish historian has pointed out, "most of the memoirs
and reports [of "Holocaust survivors"] are full of preposterous verbosity,
graphomanic exaggeration, dramatic effects, overestimated self-inflation,
dilettante philosophizing, would-be lyricism, unchecked rumors, bias,
partisan attacks and apologies." (note 5)
Hitler and the "Final Solution"
There is no documentary evidence that Adolf Hitler ever gave an order to
exterminate the Jews, or that he knew of any extermination program.
Instead, the record shows that the German leader wanted the Jews to leave
Europe, by emigration if possible and by deportation if necessary.
A document found after the war in the files of the Reich Ministry of
Justice records his thinking on the Jews. In the spring of 1942, State
Secretary Franz Schlegelberger noted in a memorandum that Hitler's Chief of
Chancellery, Dr. Hans Lammers, had informed him: "The Fuehrer has
repeatedly declared to him [Lammers] that he wants to see the solution of
the Jewish problem postponed until after the war is over." (note 6)
And on July 24, 1942, Hitler emphasized his determination to remove all
Jews from Europe after the war: "The Jews are interested in Europe for
economic reasons, but Europe must reject them, if only out of
self-interest, because the Jews are racially tougher. After this war is
over, I will rigorously hold to the view... that the Jews will have to
leave and emigrate to Madagascar or some other Jewish national state."
(note 7)
Himmler's SS and the Camps
Jews were an important part of Germany's wartime labor force, and it was in
Germany's interest to keep them alive.
The head of the SS camp administration office sent a directive dated Dec.
28, 1942, to every concentration camp, including Auschwitz. It sharply
criticized the high death rate of inmates due to disease, and ordered that
"camp physicians must use all means at their disposal to significantly
reduce the death rate in the various camps." Furthermore, it ordered: "The
camp doctors must supervise more often than in the past the nutrition of
the prisoners and, in cooperation with the administration, submit
improvement recommendations to the camp commandants ... The camp doctors
are to see to it that the working conditions at the various labor places
are improved as much as possible."
Finally, the directive stressed that "The Reichsfuehrer SS [Heinrich
Himmler] has ordered that the death rate absolutely must be reduced." (note
8)
The head of the SS department that supervised the concentration camps,
Richard Gluecks, sent a circular letter to each camp commandant dated
January 20, 1943. In it he ordered: "As I have already pointed out, every
means must be used to lower the death rate in the camp." (note 9)
Six Million?
There is no real evidence for the incessantly repeated claim that the
Germans exterminated six million Jews. It is clear, though, that millions
of Jews "survived" German rule during the Second World War, including many
who were interned in Auschwitz and other so-called "extermination camps."
This fact alone should raise serious doubts about the extermination story.
A leading newspaper of neutral Switzerland, the daily Baseler Nachrichten,
carefully estimated in June 1946 that no more than 1.5 million European
Jews could have perished under German rule during the war. (note 10)
One-Sided "Holocaustomania"
Even after more than forty years, the stream of Holocaust films and books
shows no sign of diminishing.
This relentless media campaign, which Jewish historian Alfred Lilienthal
calls "Holocaustomania," portrays the fate of the Jews during the Second
World War as the central event of history. There is no end to the
heavy-handed motion pictures, the simplistic television specials, the
vindictive hunt for "Nazi war criminals," the one-sided "educational
courses," and the self-righteous appearances by politicians and celebrities
at Holocaust "memorial services."
Britain's chief rabbi, Immanuel Jakobovits, has accurately described the
Holocaust campaign as "an entire industry, with handsome profits for
writers, researchers, film-makers, monument builders, museum planners and
even politicians." He added that some rabbis and theologians are "partners
in this big business." (note 11)
Non-Jewish victims just don't merit the same concern. For example, there
are no American memorials, "study centers," or annual observances for
Stalin's victims, who vastly outnumber Hitler's.
Who Benefits?
The perpetual Holocaust media blitz is routinely used to justify enormous
American support for Israel and to excuse otherwise inexcusable Israeli
policies, even when they conflict with American interests.
The sophisticated and well-financed Holocaust media campaign is crucially
important to the interests of Israel, which owes its existence to massive
annual subsidies from American taxpayers.
As Prof. W.D. Rubinstein of Australia has candidly acknowledged: "If the
Holocaust can be shown to be a 'Zionist myth,' the strongest of all weapons
in Israel's propaganda armory collapses." (note 12)
Jewish history teacher Paula Hyman of Columbia University has observed:
"With regard to Israel, the Holocaust may be used to forestall political
criticism and suppress debate; it reinforces the sense of Jews as an
eternally beleaguered people who can rely for their defense only upon
themselves. The invocation of the suffering endured by the Jews under the
Nazis often takes the place of rational argument, and is expected to
convince doubters of the legitimacy of current Israeli government policy."
(note 13)
One major reason that the Holocaust story has proven so durable is that the
governments of the major powers also have a vested interest in maintaining
it. The victorious powers of the Second World War -- the United States, the
Soviet Union and Britain -- have a stake in portraying the defeated Hitler
regime as negatively as possible. The more evil and satanic the Hitler
regime appears, the more noble and justified seems the Allied cause.
For many Jews, the Holocaust has become both a flourishing business and a
kind of new religion, as noted Jewish author and newspaper publisher Jacobo
Timerman points out in his book, The Longest War. He reports that many
Israelis, using the word Shoah, which is Hebrew for Holocaust, joke that
"There's no business like Shoah business." (note 14)
The Holocaust media campaign portrays Jews as totally innocent victims, and
non-Jews as morally retarded and unreliable beings who can easily turn into
murderous Nazis under the right circumstances. This self-serving but
distorted portrayal greatly strengthens Jewish group solidarity and
self-awareness.
A key lesson of the Holocaust story for Jews is that non-Jews are never
completely trustworthy. If a people as cultured and as educated as the
Germans could turn against the Jews, so the thinking goes, than surely no
non-Jewish nation can ever be completely trusted. The Holocaust message is
thus one of contempt for humanity.
Holocaust Hatemongering
The Holocaust story is sometimes used to promote hatred and hostility,
particularly against the German people as a whole, eastern Europeans and
the leadership of the Roman Catholic church.
The well-known Jewish writer, Elie Wiesel, is a former Auschwitz inmate who
served as chairman of the official U.S. Holocaust Memorial Council. He
received the 1986 Nobel Peace Prize. This dedicated Zionist wrote in his
book, Legends of Our Time: "Every Jew, somewhere in his being, should set
apart a zone of hate -- healthy, virile hate -- for what the German
personifies and for what persists in the German." (note 15)
Let Both Sides Be Heard
For several years now, the Holocaust story has been the subject of
legitimate controversy in Europe. It was debated for several hours on Swiss
television and over French national radio. The respected Italian historical
journal Storia Illustrata has given extensive coverage to both sides of
this issue.
Here in America, though, powerful organizations have so far prevented any
real public exchange of views on this issue. Many thoughtful Americans are
having growing doubts about at least some of the more sensational Holocaust
claims, but all the public ever sees and hears is the orthodox view of the
extermination story.
That's not right. Americans have the right to judge this important issue
for themselves.
The Holocaust extermination story is breaking down as suppressed evidence
becomes better known, and as more people become aware of the facts about
what is certainly the most hyped and politicized chapter of modern history.
Artificially maintaining the hatreds and passions of the past prevents
genuine reconciliation and lasting peace.
Revisionism promotes historical awareness and international understanding.
That's why the work of the Institute for Historical Review is so important
and deserves your support.
NOTES
1. Books & Bookmen, London, April 1975, p. 5.
2. Rupert Butler, Legions of Death (England: 1983), pp. 235-237, and R.
Faurisson, Journal of Historical Review, Winter 1986-87, pp. 389-403.
3. Nuremberg document PS-3311 (USA-293). IMT blue series, Vol. 32, pp.
153-158; IMT, Vol. 3, pp. 566- 568.; NMT green series, Vol. 5, pp. 1133,
1134.
4. Nuremberg document NG-2586-J. NMT green series, Vol. 13, pp. 243-249.
5. Samuel Gringauz in Jewish Social Studies (New York), January 1950, Vol.
12, p. 65.
6. Nuremberg document PS-4025. D. Irving, Goering: A Biography (New York:
1989), p. 349.
7. H. Picker, Hitlers Tischgespr_che im F_hrerhaupt quartier (Stuttgart:
1976), p. 456.
8. Nuremberg document PS-2171, Annex 2; NC&A red series, Vol. 4, pp.
833-834.
9. Nuremberg document NO-1523; NMT green series, Vol. 5, pp. 372-373.
10. Baseler Nachrichten, June 13, 1946, p. 2.
11. H. Shapiro, "Jakobovits," Jerusalem Post (Israel), Nov. 26, 1987, p. 1.
12. Quadrant (Australia), Sept. 1979, p. 27.
13. New York Times Magazine, Sept. 14, 1980, p. 79.
14. The Longest War (New York: Vintage, 1982), p. 15.
15. Legends of Our Time (New York: Schocken Books, 1982), chap. 12, p. 142.
Mark Weber is editor of the Journal of Historical Review, published by the
Institute for Historical Review. He studied history at the University of
Illinois (Chicago), the University of Munich, Portland State University ,
and Indiana University (M.A., 1977). For five days in March 1988, he
testified as a recognized expert witness on the "Final Solution" and the
Holocaust issue in a Toronto District Court case. He is the author of many
published articles, reviews and essays on various aspects of modern
European history.
The IHR publishes numerous revisionist books, tapes and other materials, as
well as the bimonthly Journal of Historical Review. Send $2 for a packet of
literature and full listing of books. Or, order more copies of this
leaflet, postpaid, at the following prices:
10 copies: $2.00 -- 50 copies: $5.00
100 copies or more 8 cents each
INSTITUTE FOR HISTORICAL REVIEW
Post Office Box 2739
Newport Beach, California 92659, U.S.A.
--
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Institute for Historical Review/PO Box 2739/Newport Beach, CA 92659
The Journal of Historical Review, 6 times/year, $40
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, $10.00 + $1.00 shipping
From oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!spool.mu.edu!sgiblab!wetware!kaiwan.com!DialupNewsWatcher!user Thu Jul 28 12:15:08 PDT 1994
Article: 14354 of alt.revisionism
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Liberation of the camps
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 1994 23:11:30 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 420
Message-ID:
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan.kaiwan.com
The "Liberation of the Camps": FACTS vs. LIES
By Theodore J. O'Keefe
Nothing has been more effective in establishing the authenticity of the
Holocaust in the minds of Americans than the terrible scenes U.S. GIs
discovered when they entered the German concentration camps at the close of
World War II.
At Dachau, Buchenwald, Dora, Mauthausen, and other work and detention
camps, horrified American infantrymen encountered heaps of dead and dying
inmates, emaciated and diseased. Survivors told them hair-raising stories
of torture and slaughter, and backed up their claims by showing the GI's
crematory ovens, alleged gas chambers, supposed implements of torture, even
shrunken heads and lampshades, gloves, and handbags purportedly made from
skin flayed from dead inmates.
U.S. government authorities, mindful that most Americans, who remembered
the atrocity stories fed them during World War I, still doubted the Allied
propaganda directed against the Hitler regime, resolved to "document" what
the GI's had found in the camps. Prominent newsmen and politicians were
flown in to see the harrowing evidence, while the U.S. Army Signal Corps
filmed and photographed the scenes for posterity. The famous journalist
Edward R. Murrow reported, in tones of horror, but no longer of disbelief,
what he had been told and shown, and Dachau and Buchenwald were branded on
the hearts and minds of the American populace as names of infamy unmatched
in the sad and bloody history of this planet.
For Americans, what was "discovered" at the camps -- the dead and the
diseased, the terrible stories of the inmates, all the props of torture and
terror -- became the basis not simply of a transitory propaganda campaign
but of the conviction that yes, it was true: the Germans did exterminate
six million Jews, most of them in lethal gas chambers. What the GI's found
was used, by way of films which were mandatory viewing for the vanquished
populace of Germany, to "re-educate" the German people by destroying their
national pride and their will to a united, independent national state,
imposing in their place overwhelming feelings of collective guilt and
political impotence. And when the testimony, and the verdict, at Nuremberg
incorporated most, if not all, of the horror stories Americans were told
about Dachau, Buchenwald, and other places captured by the U.S. Army, the
Holocaust could pass for one of the most documented, one of the most
authenticated, one of the most proven historical episodes in the human
record.
A Different Reality
But it is known today that, very soon after the liberation of the camps,
American authorities were aware that the real story of the camps was quite
different from the one in which they were coaching military public
information officers, government spokesmen, politicians, journalists, and
other mouthpieces.
When American and British forces overran western and central Germany in the
spring of 1945, they were followed by troops charged with discovering and
securing any evidence of German war crimes. Among them was Dr. Charles
Larson, one of America's leading forensic pathologists, who was assigned to
the Judge Advocate General's Department. Dr. Larson performed autopsies at
Dachau and some twenty other German camps, examining on some days more than
100 corpses. After his grim work at Dachau, he was questioned for three
days by U.S. Army prosecutors. (note 1)
Dr. Larson's findings? According to an interview he gave to an American
journalist in 1980, "What we've heard is that six million Jews were
exterminated. Part of that is a hoax." (note 2) And what part was the hoax?
Dr. Larson, who told his biographer that to his knowledge he "was the only
forensic pathologist on duty in the entire European Theater," (note 3)
informed Wichita Eagle reporter Jan Floerchinger that "never was a case of
poison gas uncovered." (note 4) Neither Dr. Larson nor any other forensic
specialist has ever been cited by any Holocaust historian to substantiate a
single case of death by poison gas, whether Zyklon-B or any other variety.
Typhus, Not Poison Gas
If not by gassing, how did the unfortunate victims at Dachau, Buchenwald,
and Bergen- Belsen perish? Were they tortured to death? Deliberately
starved? The answers to these questions are known as well. As Dr. Larson
and other Allied medical men discovered, the chief cause of death at
Dachau, Belsen, and the other camps was disease, above all typhus, an old
and terrible scourge of mankind which until recently flourished in places
where populations were crowded together in circumstances where public
health measures were unknown or had broken down. Such was the case in the
overcrowded internment camps in Germany at war's end, where, despite such
measures as systematic delousing, quarantine of the sick, and cremation of
the dead, the virtual collapse of Germany's food, transport, and public
health systems led to catastrophe.
Perhaps the most authoritative statement of the facts as to typhus and
mortality in the camps has been made by Dr. John E. Gordon, M.D., Ph.D., a
professor of preventive medicine and epidemiology at the Harvard University
School of Public Health, who was with U.S. forces in Germany in 1945. Dr.
Gordon reported in 1948 that "The outbreaks in concentration camps and
prisons made up the great bulk of typhus infection encountered in Germany."
Dr. Gordon summarized the causes for the outbreaks as follows:
Germany was in chaos. The destruction of whole cities and the path left by
advancing armies produced a disruption of living conditions contributing to
the spread of the disease. Sanitation was low grade, public utilities were
seriously disrupted, food supply and food distribution was poor, housing
was inadequate and order and discipline were everywhere lacking. Still more
important, a shifting of populations was occurring such as few countries
and few times have experienced. (note 5)
Dr. Gordon's findings are corroborated by Dr. Russell Barton, today a
psychiatrist of international repute, who entered Bergen-Belsen with
British forces as a young medical student in 1945. Barton, who volunteered
to care for the diseased survivors, testified under sworn oath in a Toronto
courtroom in 1985 that "Thousands of prisoners who died at the
Bergen-Belsen concentration camp during World War II weren't deliberately
starved to death but died from a rash of diseases." (note 6) Dr. Barton
further testified that on entering the camp he had credited stories of
deliberate starvations but had decided such stories were untrue after
inspecting the wellequipped kitchens and the meticulously maintained
ledgers, dating back to 1942, of food cooked and dispensed each day.
Despite noisily publicized claims and widespread popular notions to the
contrary, no researcher has been able to document a German policy of
extermination through starvation in the German camps.
No Lampshades, No Handbags, Etc.
What of the ghoulish stories of concentration camp inmates skinned for
their tattoos, flayed to make lampshades and handbags, or other artifacts?
What of the innumerable "torture racks," "meathooks," whipping posts,
gallows, and other tools of torment and death that are reported to have
abounded at every German camp? These allegations, and even more grotesque
ones profferred by Soviet prosecutors, found their way into the record at
Nuremberg.
The lampshade and tattooed-skin charges were made against Ilse Koch, dubbed
by journalists the "Bitch of Buchenwald," who was reported to have
furnished her house with objects manufactured from the tanned hides of
luckless inmates. But General Lucius Clay, military governor of the U.S.
zone of occupied Germany, who reviewed her case in 1948, told his superiors
in Washington: "There is no convincing evidence that she [Ilse Koch]
selected inmates for extermination in order to secure tattooed skins or
that she possessed any articles made of human skin." (note 7) In an
interview General Clay gave years later, he stated about the material for
the infamous lampshades: "Well, it turned out actually that is was goat
flesh. But at the trial it was still human flesh. It was almost impossible
for her to have gotten a fair trial." (note 8) Ilse Koch hanged herself in
a West German jail in 1967.
It would be tedious to itemize and refute the thousands of bizarre claims
as to Nazi atrocities. That there were instances of German cruelty,
however, is clear from the testimony of Dr. Konrad Morgen, a legal
investigator attached to the Reich Criminal Police, whose statements on the
witness stand at Nuremberg have never been challenged by believers in the
Jewish Holocaust. Dr. Morgen informed the court that he had been given full
authority by Heinrich Himmler, commander of Hitler's SS and the dread
Gestapo, to enter any German concentration camp and investigate instances
of cruelty and corruption on the part of the camp staffs. According to Dr.
Morgen's sworn testimony at Nuremberg, he investigated 800 such cases, in
which over 200 convictions resulted. (note 9) Punishments included the
death penalty for the worst offenders, including Hermann Florstedt,
commandant of Lublin (Majdanek), and Karl Koch, Ilse's husband, commandant
of Buchenwald.
In reality, while camp commandants in certain cases did inflict physical
punishment, such acts had to be approved by authorities in Berlin, and it
was required that a camp physician first certify the good health of the
prisoner to be disciplined, and then be on hand at the actual beating.
(note 10) After all, the camps were throughout most of the war important
centers of industrial activity. The good health and morale of the prisoners
was critical to the German war effort, as is evidenced by a 1942 order
issued by SS-Brigadefuehrer Richard Gluecks, chief of the office which
controlled the concentration camps, which held camp commanders "personally
responsible for exhausting every possibility to preserve the physical
strength of the detainees." (note 11)
Concentration Camp Survivors Merely Victims?
U.S. Army investigators, working at Buchenwald and other camps, quickly
ascertained what was common knowledge among veteran inmates: that the worst
offenders, the cruelest denizens of the camps were not the guards but the
prisoners themselves. Common criminals of the same stripe as those who
populate U.S. prisons today committed many villainies, particularly when
they held positions of authority, and fanatical Communists, highly
organized to combat their many political enemies among the inmates,
eliminated their foes with Stalinist ruthlessness.
Two U.S. Army investigators at Buchenwald, Egon W. Fleck and Edward A.
Tenenbaum, carefully investigated circumstances in the camp before its
liberation. In a detailed report submitted to their superiors, they
revealed, in the words of Alfred Toombs, their commander, who wrote a
preface to the report, "how the prisoners themselves organized a deadly
terror within the Nazi terror." (note 12)
Fleck and Tenenbaum described the power exercised by criminals and
Communists as follows:
...The trusties, who in time became almost exclusively Communist Germans,
had the power of life and death over all other inmates. They could sentence
a man or a group to almost certain death ... The Communist trusties were
directly responsible for a large part of the brutalities at Buchenwald.
Colonel Donald B. Robinson, chief historian of the American military
government in Germany, summarized the Fleck-Tenenbaum report in an article
which appeared in The American Mercury shortly after the war. Colonel
Robinson wrote succinctly of the American investigators' findings: "It
appeared that the prisoners who agreed with the Communists ate; those who
didn't starved to death." (note 13)
Additional corroboration of inmate brutality has been provided by Ellis E.
Spackman, who, as Chief of Counter-Intelligence Arrests and Detentions for
the Seventh U.S. Army, was involved in the liberation of Dachau. Spackman,
later a professor of history at San Bernardino Valley College in
California, wrote in 1966 that at Dachau "the prisoners were the actual
instruments that inflicted the barbarities on their fellow prisoners."
(note 14)
"Gas Chambers"
On December 9, 1944 Col. Paul Kirk and Lt. Col. Edward J. Gully inspected
the German concentration camp at Natzweiler in Alsace. They reported their
findings to their superiors at the headquarters of the U.S. 6th Army Group,
which subsequently forwarded Kirk and Gully's report to the War Crimes
Division. While, significantly, the full text of their report has never
been published, it has been revealed, by an author supportive of Holocaust
claims, that the two investigators were careful to characterize equipment
exhibited to them by French informants as a "so-called lethal gas chamber,"
and claim it was "allegedly used as a lethal gas chamber". (note 15)
Both the careful phraseology of the Natzweiler report, and its effective
suppression, stand in stark contrast to the credulity, the confusion, and
the blaring publicity which accompanied official reports of alleged gas
chambers at Dachau. At first, a U.S. Army photo depicting a GI gazing
mournfully at a steel door marked with a skull and crossbones and the
German words for: "Caution! Gas! Mortal danger! Don't open!" was identified
as showing the murder weapon. Later, however, it was evidently decided that
the apparatus in question was merely a standard delousing chamber for
clothing, and another alleged gas chamber, this one cunningly disguised as
a shower room, was exhibited to American congressmen and journalists as the
site where thousands breathed their last. While there exist numerous
reports in the press as to the operation of this second "gas chamber," no
official report by trained Army investigators has yet surfaced to reconcile
such problems as the function of the shower heads: Were they "dummies," or
did lethal cyanide gas stream through them? (Each theory has appreciable
support in journalistic and historiographical literature.)
As with Dachau, so with Buchenwald, Bergen- Belsen, and the other camps
captured by the Allies. There was no end of propaganda about "gas
chambers," "gas ovens," and the like, but so far not a single detailed
description of the murder weapon and its function, not a single report of
the kind that is mandatory for the successful prosecution of any assault or
murder case in America at that time and today, has come to light.
Furthermore, a number of Holocaust authorities have now publicly decreed
that there were no gassings, no extermination camps in Germany after all!
All these things, we are told, were located in what is now Poland, in areas
captured by the Soviet Red Army and off-limits to Western investigators. In
1960 Dr. Martin Broszat, who is now director of the Munich-based Institute
for Contemporary History, which is funded by the West German government to
support the Holocaust story, wrote a letter to the German weekly Die Zeit
in which he stated categorically: "Neither in Dachau nor in Bergen-Belsen
nor in Buchenwald were Jews or other prisoners gassed." (note 16)
Professional Nazi-hunter Simon Wiesenthal wrote in 1975 that "there were no
extermination camps on German soil." (note 17) And Dachau "gas chamber" No.
2, which was once presented to a stunned and grieving world as a weapon
which claimed hundreds of thousands of lives, is now described in the
brochure issued to tourists at the modern Dachau "memorial site" in these
words: "This gas chamber, camouflaged as a shower room, was not used."
(note 18)
The Propaganda Intensifies
More than forty years after American troops entered Dachau, Buchenwald, and
the other German camps, and trained American investigators established the
facts as to what had gone on in them, the government in Washington, the
entertainment media in Hollywood, and the print media in New York continue
to churn out millions of words and images annually on the horrors of the
camps and the infamy of the Holocaust. Despite the fact that, with the
exception of the defeated Confederacy, no enemy of America has ever so
suffered so complete and devastating defeat as did Germany in 1945, the
mass media and the politicians and bureaucrats behave as if Hitler, his
troops, and his concentration camps continue to exist in an eternal
present, and our opinion makers continue to distort, through ignorance or
malice, the facts about the camps.
Time for the Truth
It is time that the government and the professional historians revealed the
facts about Dachau, Buchenwald, and the other camps. It is time that they
let the American public know how the inmates died, and how they didn't die.
It is time that the claims as to mass murder by gassing were clarified and
investigated in the same manner as any other claims of murder are dealt
with. It is time that the free ride certain groups have enjoyed as the
result of unchallenged Holocaust claims be terminated, just as it is time
that other groups, including Germans, eastern Europeans, the Roman Catholic
hierarchy, and the wartime leadership of America and Britain stop being
scapegoated, either for their alleged role in the Holocaust or their
supposed failure to stop it.
Above all, it is time that the citizens of this great democratic Republic
have the facts about the camps, facts which they possess a right to know, a
right that is fundamental to the exercise of their authority and their will
in the governance of their country. As citizens and as taxpayers, Americans
of all ethnic backgrounds, of all faiths, have a basic right and an
overriding interest in determining the facts of incidents which are deemed
by those in positions of power to be determinative in America's foreign
policy, in its educational policy, in its selection of past events to be
memorialized in our civic life. The alleged facts of the Holocaust are
today at issue all over the civilized world: in Germany, in France, in
Italy, in Britain, in the Low Countries and Scandinavia, in Japan, across
our border in Canada and in the United States of America itself. The truth
will be decided only by recourse to the facts, in the public forum: not by
concealing the facts, denying the truth, stonewalling reality. The truth
will out, and it is time the government of this country, and governments
and international bodies throughout the world, made public and patent the
evidence of what actually transpired in the German concentration camps in
the years 1933-1945, so that we may put paid to the lies, without fear or
favor, and carry out the work of reconciliation and renewal that is and
must be the granite foundation of mutual tolerance between peoples and of a
peace based on justice, rather than on guns, barbed wire, prisons, and
lies.
NOTES
1. Crime Doctor, a biography of Larson by John D. McCallum, Mercer,
Washington & Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada, 1979, p. 69.
2. Wichita Eagle, April 1, 1980, p. 4C.
3. Crime Doctor, p. 46.
4. Wichita Eagle, April 1, 1980, 4G.
5. John E. Gordon, "Louse-Borne Typhus Fever in the European Theater of
Operations, U.S. Army, 1945," in Forest Ray Moulton, Ed., Rickettsial
Diseases of Man, Am. Acad. for the Advancement of Science, Washington D.C.
1948.
6. Toronto Star, February 8, 1985, p. A2.
7. New York Times, 24 September 1948, p. 3.
8. Interview with Lucius Clay, Official Proceeding of the George C.
Marshall Research Foundation, cited in "Buchenwald: Legend and Reality,"
Mark Weber, The Journal of Historical Review, Vol. 7, no. 4.
9. International Military Tribunal, Vol. XVII, p. 556; IMT, Vol. XX, pp.
489, 438.
10. Cited in The Theory and Practice of Hell, Eugen Kogon, Berkley Books,
New York, pp. 108-109.
11. Nuremberg document NO-1523.
12. Buchenwald: A Preliminary Report, Egon W. Fleck and Edward A.
Tenenbaum, U.S. Army, 12th Army Group, 24 April 1945. National Archives,
Record Group 331, SHAEF, G-5, 17.11, Jacket 10, Box 151
(8929/163-8929/180).
13. "Communist Atrocities at Buchenwald," Donald B. Robinson, in American
Mercury, October 1946.
14. San Bernardino Sun-Telegram, March 13, 1966 (cited in The Man Who
Invented "Genocide," James J. Martin, Institute for Historical Review, IHR,
1984, pp. 110-111.
15. "Concentration Camp at Natzwiller [sic]," RG 331, Records of Allied
Operations and Occupation, Army Headquarters WW2, SHAEF/G-5/2717, Modern
Military, National Archives, Washington, D.C., cited in Robert H. Abzug,
Inside the Vicious Heart, Oxford University Press, New York, 1985, p. 10,
p. 181.
16. Die Zeit, Hamburg, Germany, August 26, 1960.
17. Books & Bookmen, April 1975, Vol. 7, p. 5.
18. Leaflet, Memorial Site Concentration Camp Dachau, The International
Dachau-Committee, Dachau, Germany, n.d.
The conclusions of the early U.S. Army investigations as to the truth about
the wartime German concentration camps have since been corroborated by all
subsequent investigators and can be summarized:
1. The harrowing scenes of dead and dying inmates were not the result of a
German policy of "extermination," but rather the result of epidemics of
typhus and other disease brought about largely by the effects of Allied
aerial attacks.
2. Stories of Nazi supercriminals and sadists who turned Jews and others
into handbags and lampshades for their private profit or amusement were
sick lies or diseased fantasies; indeed, the German authorities
consistently punished corruption and cruelty on the part of camp commanders
and guards.
3. On the other hand, the representations of the newly liberated inmates to
have been saints and martyrs of Hitlerism were quite often very far from
the truth; indeed, most of the brutalities inflicted on camp detainees were
the work of their fellow prisoners, in contravention of German policy and
German orders.
4. The alleged homicidal showers and gas chambers had been used either for
bathing camp inmates or delousing their clothes; the claim that they had
been used to murder Jews or other human beings is a contemptible
fabrication. Orthodox, Establishment historians and professional
"Natzi-hunters" have quietly dropped claims that inmates were gassed at
Dachau, Buchenwald, and other camps in Germany. They continue, however, to
keep silent regarding the lies about Dachau and Buchenwald, as well as to
evade an open discussion of the evidence for homicidal gassing at Auschwitz
and the other camps captured by the Soviets.
The IHR publishes numerous revisionist books, tapes and other materials, as
well as the bimonthly Journal of Historical Review. Send $2 for a packet of
literature and full listing of books. Or, order more copies of this
leaflet, postpaid, at the following prices:
10 copies: $2.00 -- 50 copies: $5.00
100 copies or more 8 cents each
INSTITUTE FOR HISTORICAL REVIEW
Post Office Box 2739
Newport Beach, California 92659, U.S.A.
--
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Institute for Historical Review/PO Box 2739/Newport Beach, CA 92659
The Journal of Historical Review, 6 times/year, $40
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, $10.00 + $1.00 shipping
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The U.S. Holocaust Museum
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The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum: a costly and dangerous mistake
by Theodore J. OUKeefe
Hard by the Washington Monument, within clear view of the Jefferson
Memorial, an easy stroll down the Mall to the majestic Lincoln Memorial,
has arisen, on some of the most hallowed territory of the United States of
America, a costly and dangerous mistake. On ground where no monument yet
marks countless sacrifices and unheralded achievements of Americans of all
races and creeds in the building and defense of this nation, sits today a
massive and costly edifice, devoted above all to a contentious and false
version of the ordeal in Europe, during World War II, of non-American
members of a minority, sectarian group. Now, in the deceptive guise of
tolerance, the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum begins a propaganda
campaign, financed through the unwitting largesse of the American taxpayer,
in the interests of Israel and its adherents in America.
How did the federal government allow the creation of such a monstrosity?
What is its meaning for American policy and for American values? And what
must the American people do to regain control of the land their servants in
Washington handed over to a foreign interest, and to establish an
enterprise thereon, whether a museum or otherwise, informed by and
conducted according to American principles and interests?
Origins
In the late 1970s, during the presidency of James Earl "Jimmy" Carter, a
propaganda campaign to promote the "Holocaust," the alleged systematic
slaughter of some six million Jews by the Germans during the Second World
War, was organized and carried out from Hollywood and New York. As Benjamin
Meed, an important functionary of the council which controls the Holocaust
museum, wrote in 1990:
Almost a dozen years ago, a new phenomena [sic] developed. The Holocaust
was introduced into schools, colleges, and universities. Television
broadcast programs on the Holocaust and millions of Americans watched them.
Soon, Americans took great interest in the lessons of the Holocaust, its
uniqueness and its universal message. (note 1)
Why the urgency of this campaign? Two factors were paramount: first, the
beginnings, more than three decades after the end of the Second World War,
of an objective scholarly assessment of the facts of the alleged German
policy to exterminate European Jewry. (note 2)
Second, the need to justify Zionist theory and practice in the face of
unprecedented international resistance to Israeli intransigence (including
the famous UN General Assembly Resolution which equated Zionism with
racism), and to defend IsraelUs aggressive policy under the leadership of
the former terrorist, Prime Minister Menachem Begin. (note 3)
The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Council
In 1978 President Carter, his administration beleaguered at home and
abroad, succumbed to pressure from the new "Holocaust" lobby (and thus
AmericaUs influential Israel-first minority) by creating, through executive
order, the PresidentUs Commission on the Holocaust. Two years later, on 7
October 1987, Congress passed -- unanimously -- a law establishing the
United States Holocaust Memorial Council, charged principally with
constructing and overseeing the operation of "a permanent living memorial
to the victims of the holocaust" and with providing "for appropriate ways
for the Nation to commemorate the Days of Remembrance, as an annual,
national, civic commemoration of the Holocaust ..." (note 4)
A priceless tract of public land was turned over to the Council, and, after
years of costly delay (during which the U.S. Holocaust Memorial CouncilUs
budget swelled from $2.5 million to over $18 million a year), the U.S.
Holocaust Memorial Museum has been completed and readied for opening on 22
April 1993.
A sectarian, alien agenda
The Holocaust Memorial Council, besides soliciting tens of millions of
dollars in tax-deductible donations to finance the Holocaust museum, has
busied itself with promoting an agenda of unalloyed support for minority,
Zionist ends.
The membership of the Council, a U.S. federal agency, has been
overwhelmingly Jewish since its founding in 1980. The CouncilUs two
different chairmen -- Elie Wiesel and Harvey Meyerhoff -- have both been
committed to the support of the State of Israel, and the chairs of the
CouncilUs most important committees have been likewise Jewish and Zionist.
The chief fund-raiser for the Holocaust museum, Miles Lerman, was formerly
American vice chairman for the State of Israel Bonds Organization,
promoting tax-free investment in a country which receives by far the
largest amount of U.S. foreign aid per year. Working the same wealthy
Jewish-Americans he has long dealt with in his fund-raising for Israel,
Lerman has helped raise nearly $160 million in tax-deductible
contributions. The biggest donors have been rewarded by having various
components of the museum named for them, e.g. the Wexner Learning Center.
Nor is erecting and operating the Holocaust Memorial Museum the only
function with which the Holocaust Memorial Council has been charged.
Another of its duties is to commemorate the Days of Remembrance for Victims
of the Holocaust, which Congress has raised to "an annual, national, civic
commemoration of the Holocaust." Like the Israeli Yom ha-shoah (Day of the
Holocaust), on which they are based, the Days of Remembrance are dated
according to the lunar Hebrew calendar, and thus, like Passover or
Chanukah, fluctuate from year to year. These foreign days of lamentation
are currently celebrated, under the flag of the Republic, to prayers and
chants in Hebrew, in governmental settings from the Capital Rotunda to city
halls, across the land. Need it be stated that no group of American victims
of persecution, let alone another foreign group, enjoys any such federally
mandated and tax-supported day, or days, of recognition?
The Holocaust MuseumUs one-sided "history"
Although the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Council during its early years made
noises about recognizing the ordeals of non-Jews during the Second World
War, by every indication from advance literature published by the Council
the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum is relentlessly Judeocentric. While,
according to a preliminary ground plan of the permanent exhibit, here and
there are nods to non-Jewish groups oppressed by the German National
Socialists (never to groups victimized by GermanyUs enemies, above all by
StalinUs USSR), the larger holocaust of the Second World War, which claimed
an estimated 75 to 80 million lives around the world, is ignored in
preference to the Jewish ordeal. Thus, to cite just one telling example,
the MuseumUs "Life before the Holocaust" exhibit refers strictly to Jewish
life before the Holocaust. (note 5)
Where, in fact, non-Jews figure in the Museum, they figure largely as
villains: the Germans and their allies and collaborators; the Western
allies, including America, who refused to accept a large immigration before
the war; the American political and military leaders who refused to
authorize costly bombing raids on the Auschwitz "gas chambers."
Red liberators?
The MuseumUs message that support for Jews is the sole measure of decency
during the Second World War leads to anomalies which, in an American museum
raised on ground hallowed to the principles of liberty on which this
republic is based, can only be called shocking. That the victims of World
War II atrocities by the Allies -- massacres such as the firebombing of
Tokyo and Dresden, the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the Soviet
slaughter of Polish prisoners at Katyn, the mass rapes carried out by the
Red Army at the warUs end -- receive no mention is deplorable. But the
MuseumUs treatment of the armed forces which defended StalinUs savage
Soviet tyranny is nothing short of grotesque.
In the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum, Communists appear only in the guise
of "resistance fighters" and "liberators." For example, the submachine gun
and false papers of Samuel Weissberg, a Communist Party member who rose to
high rank in a Communist guerrilla group in North France, are on honored
display, no less precious a relic than the standard heaps of shoes and
hair, in the MuseumUs permanent exhibit. (note 6)
Even more unsettling is the honor given to StalinUs notorious Red Army,
which compiled a bloody and shameful record of atrocities across Europe
during, and after, the war. As the U.S. Holocaust Memorial CouncilUs
newsletter fulsomely puts it, "Flags will hang in the museum to honor the
millions of Soviet soldiers who drove Nazi forces westward and who were the
first allied forces to liberate and publicize the existence of the camps."
In the words of Council chairman Harvey Meyerhoff, these martial banners of
the Red tyranny have a single association: "Much more than simply wartime
memorabilia, these military artifacts are a significant contribution to
memory, one that will remind future generations of the pivotal role Soviet
forces played in defeating Nazism ..." (note 7)
What must the millions of Americans originating or descending from the
European nations -- Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania,
Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia -- for which
the Red "military artifacts" symbolized invasion, tyranny, oppression, and
persecution of religion think as they see the fierce armies of their
persecutors hailed as "liberators"?
Israel in the museum
Just as one might guess from the circumstance that the MuseumUs director,
Yeshayahu Weinberg, and the head of its "Learning Center," Yechiam Halevy,
were brought in from Israel, the MuseumUs treatment of the state of Israel
is adulatory. An emotive tribute to the founding of Israel is an integral
part of the exhibition. That the establishment of Israel, and its expansion
in subsequent wars, has meant colonial occupation and oppression for
millions of the landUs native Palestinians, and dispossession and exile for
millions more, goes unmentioned -- another grotesquery in an American
museum supposed to instruct in the dangers of intolerance and disregard of
human rights. As for the momentous collaboration between HitlerUs German
state and the Jewish Agency in the 1930s, which through the HaUavara
Agreement enabled the transfer of vital capital and the influx of tens of
thousands of highly skilled Jewish immigrants to Palestine, that is passed
over in utter silence. (note 8)
"Historical correctness"
The Holocaust MuseumUs skewed history is not simply a matter of
one-sidedness and omission. The Museum has further committed itself to a
fixed and final interpretation of the surprisingly scanty and sometimes
suspect evidence for a German policy of annihilating European Jewry,
largely in gas chambers, in numbers approaching six million. This despite a
considerable body of research and scholarship that has arisen over past two
decades in many lands, and which contests, by academic means, the substance
of the Holocaust "extermination thesis." (note 9)
That the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Council is aware of the work of the
revisionists is clear: the CouncilUs literature is replete, not with
substantive refutations of revisionist scholarship, but with slander and
polemic. To cite one characteristic example, the U.S. Holocaust Memorial
Museum Newsletter of May 1992 featured a front-page attack on Holocaust
revisionism by Professor Deborah Lipstadt of Occidental College in which
the author decried the revisionists for producing material that looked
scholarly, then lauded the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum as "among the
most efficacious ways" of "combatting this pernicious trend," while
neglecting to specify a single error of revisionist scholarship. (note 10)
The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Council recognizes that there is a historical
debate on the Holocaust, but takes official notice of the dissenting
position only to attack it. That an American institution, supported by the
taxes of all Americans, should commit itself to inflexible historical
orthodoxy -- in the service of a single American minority -- is an
intolerable imposition on our First Amendment rights, as well as a mockery
of the Western, and American, ideal of objective scholarship.
A center for education?
U.S. Holocaust Memorial Council Chairman Harvey Meyerhoff has stated: "The
Museum is primarily an educational institution." (note 11) From the
CouncilUs own literature, however, it is clear what Meyerhoff means by
education. The "role-playing" for children as well as adults who visit the
Museum (visitors are to be issued "identity cards" bearing the name and
alleged fate of various Holocaust victims); the high-tech computer and
video effects and the recordings of speech and music which augment the
MuseumUs tendentiously described artifacts; and the MuseumUs goal, as
proclaimed by its Zionist fund-raising chairman, Miles Lerman, of insuring
that "Children in Dubuque, families in Tucson, and schoolteachers in
Atlanta will learn the history and the lessons of Auschwitz as thoroughly
as they learn the history of their own communities": all these show that
the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum is a propaganda enterprise that seeks to
indoctrinate all Americans in a uniquely and partisanly Jewish (and
Zionist) version of not merely the past, but the present and the future.
(note 12)
The American response
What is the American response to a partisan museum constructed in a place
solemnly consecrated to the heroes and the values of our Republic, to be
lavishly operated with taxpayer dollars at a time when, even in our
countryUs capital, thousands sleep homeless in the shadow of our national
monuments? What is the American response to an ambitious propaganda agenda
that aims to impose a sectarian "Holocaust remembrance" in schools where
our children cannot pray, in town halls and federal buildings from which
the religious symbols of the majority are banned in the name of freedom of
worship?
Over two centuries ago, Thomas Jefferson wrote: "To compel a man to furnish
contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves
and abhors is sinful and tyrannical." (note 13)
Nearly 140 years ago, Abraham Lincoln said: "I insist, that if there is
anything which it is the duty of the whole people to never entrust to any
hands but their own, that thing is the preservation and perpetuity of their
own liberties and institutions." (note 14)
The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum, and the Council which runs it, as
agencies of the government in which the American people is sovereign, must
be removed from the special interest that now controls it.
The scope and purpose of the Museum must be expanded, from its present
one-sided emphasis on foreign Jewish sufferings, real and imagined, in
Europe during the 1930s and 1940s to a compassionate yet realistic concern
for all victims, but above all for American victims, of historic injustice.
The Museum must be made a place where American of every heritage, and
scholars of every viewpoint, may gather, educate, and be educated, without
accusation and in the absence of propaganda. Until it is, the men and women
who founded and built and suffered and fought and died for America, of
every race, nationality and creed, will rest uneasy.
NOTES
1. The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum Newsletter (Washington, DC),
August, 1990,"Survivors Play Major Role in Establishing the U.S. Holocaust
Memorial Museum," p. 1. Meed is president of the American Gathering of
Holocaust Survivors, and chairman of the U.S. Holocaust Memorial CouncilUs
Content and Days of Remembrance committees.
2. In 1976, Professor Arthur ButzUs book The Hoax of the Twentieth Century:
The Case Against the Presumed Extermination of European Jewry was first
published in England; in November of 1978 Professor Robert FaurissonUs
article "The Problem of the Gas Chambers" was published in the Paris daily
Le Monde. Professor Butz has commented on the simultaneous and independent
appearance of a variety of earlier academic criticisms of the wartime
propaganda version of JewryUs ordeal in "The International Holocaust
Controversy," The Journal of Historical Review, Spring 1980, pp. 5-22.
3. By resolution of the United Nations General Assembly on November 10,
1975, Zionism was condemned as "a form of racism and racial
discrimination."
4. Public Law 96-388, $ 1, October 7, 1980, 94 Stat. 1547.
5. Statements regarding the MuseumUs permanent exhibit, except where
otherwise noted, are derived from the floor plan and photographs in United
States Holocaust Memorial Museum, a brochure published by the USHMC in
Washington, 1991.
6. U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum Newsletter, Sept. 91, "French Resistance
FighterUs Weapon Will Help Tell Story of Underground Movement," p. 4.
7. U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum Newsletter, Fall 1992, "Russian Embassy
Presents Flags of Liberating Units to Museum," p. 6.
8. For the most complete account of relations between the Nazis and the
Zionists, see Francis Nicosia, The Third Reich and the Palestine Question,
Austin: University of Texas, 1985.
9. The most complete survey of Holocaust Revisionist writings to date is
Carlo MattognoUs "The Myth of the Extermination of the Jews--Part II," in
The Journal of Historical Review, Fall 1988, pp. 261-302.
10. U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum Newsletter, May 1992, "Denying the
Holocaust: The Growing Assault on Truth," p.6.
11. US Holocaust Memorial Museum Newsletter, November 1991, "Wexner Family
Donates $5 Million to Fund Interactive Learning Center," p. 1.
12. The "identity cards" and other features of the Museum are described in
the brochure cited in note 5, above; LermanUs statement was included in a
fund-raising letter sent by the Museum to potential Jewish contributors in
1991.
13. From "A Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom," 1779, in Jefferson:
Magnificent Populist, edited by Martin Larson, Greenwich, CN: Devin-Adair,
1981, p. 319.
14. "Speech at Peoria, Illinois," October 16, 1854, in The American
Intellectual Tradition, Vol. 1, edited by David Hollinger and Charles
Capper, New York: Oxford University Press, 1989, p. 382.
About the author
Theodore J. OUKeefe is an editor with the Institute for Historical Review.
He has published numerous articles on historical and political subjects.
The IHR publishes numerous revisionist books, tapes and other materials, as
well as the bimonthly Journal of Historical Review. Send $2 for a packet of
literature and full listing of books. Or, order more copies of this
leaflet, postpaid, at the following prices:
10 copies: $2.00 -- 50 copies: $5.00
100 copies or more 8 cents each
INSTITUTE FOR HISTORICAL REVIEW
Post Office Box 2739
Newport Beach, California 92659, U.S.A.
--
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Institute for Historical Review/PO Box 2739/Newport Beach, CA 92659
The Journal of Historical Review, 6 times/year, $40
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, $10.00 + $1.00 shipping
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Article: 14356 of alt.revisionism
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Auschwitz myths and facts
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 1994 23:12:52 -0800
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Auschwitz: myths and facts
by Mark Weber
Nearly everyone has heard of Auschwitz, the German concentration camp where
great numbers of Jews and others were reportedly exterminated in gas
chambers during the Second World War.
Auschwitz is widely regarded as the most terrible Nazi extermination
center. This image, however, cannot be reconciled with the facts.
Scholars challenge Holocaust story
Astonishing as it may seem, more and more historians and engineers have
been challenging the widely accepted Auschwitz story. These "revisionist"
scholars do not dispute the fact that large numbers of Jews were deported
to the camp, or that many died there, particularly of typhus and other
diseases. But the compelling evidence they present shows that Auschwitz was
not an extermination center and that the story of mass killings in "gas
chambers" is a myth.
The Auschwitz camps
The Auschwitz camp complex was set up in 1940 in what is now south-central
Poland. Large numbers of Jews were deported there between 1942 and
mid-1944.
The main camp was known as Auschwitz I. Birkenau, or Auschwitz II, was
supposedly the main extermination center, and Monowitz, or Auschwitz III,
was a large industrial center where gasoline was produced from coal. In
addition there were dozens of smaller satellite camps devoted to the war
economy.
Four Million Victims?
At the postwar Nuremberg Tribunal, the Allies charged that the Germans
exterminated four million people at Auschwitz. This figure, which was
invented by the Soviets, was uncritically accepted for many years. It often
appeared in major American newspapers and magazines, for example. (note 1)
Today no reputable historian, not even those who generally accept the
extermination story, believes this figure. Israeli Holocaust historian
Yehuda Bauer said in 1989 that it is time to finally acknowledge the
familiar four million figure is a deliberate myth. In July 1990 the
Auschwitz State Museum in Poland, along with Israel's Yad Vashem Holocaust
Center, suddenly announced that altogether perhaps one million people (both
Jews and non-Jews) died there. Neither institution would say how many of
these people were killed, nor were any estimates given of the numbers of
those supposedly gassed. (note 2)
One prominent Holocaust historian, Gerald Reitlinger, has estimated that
perhaps 700,000 or so Jews perished at Auschwitz. While even these lower
figures are incorrect, they show how the Auschwitz story has changed
drastically over the years.
Bizarre Tales
At one time it was seriously claimed that Jews were systematically
electrocuted at Auschwitz. American newspapers, citing a Soviet eyewitness
report from liberated Auschwitz, told readers in February 1945 that the
methodical Germans had killed Jews there using an "electric conveyor belt
on which hundreds of persons could be electrocuted simultaneously [and]
then moved on into furnaces. They were burned almost instantly, producing
fertilizer for nearby cabbage fields." (note 3)
And at the Nuremberg Tribunal, chief U.S. prosecutor Robert Jackson charged
that the Germans used a "newly invented" device to instantaneously
"vaporize" 20,000 Jews near Auschwitz "in such a way that there was no
trace left of them." (note 4) No reputable historian now accepts either of
these fanciful tales.
The Hoess "Confession"
A key Holocaust document is the "confession" of former Auschwitz commandant
Rudolf Hoess of April 5, 1946, which was submitted by the U.S. prosecution
at the main Nuremberg trial. (note 5)
Although it is still widely cited as solid proof for the Auschwitz
extermination story, it is actually a false statement that was obtained by
torture.
Many years after the war, British military intelligence sergeant Bernard
Clarke described how he and five other British soldiers tortured the former
commandant to obtain his "confession." Hoess himself privately explained
his ordeal in these words: "Certainly, I signed a statement that I killed
two and half million Jews. I could just as well have said that it was five
million Jews. There are certain methods by which any confession can be
obtained, whether it is true or not." (note 6)
Even historians who generally accept the Holocaust extermination story now
acknowledge that many of the specific statements made in the Hoess
"affidavit" are simply not true. For one thing, no serious scholar now
claims that anything like two and a half or three million people perished
in Auschwitz.
The Hoess "affidavit" further alleges that Jews were already being
exterminated by gas in the summer of 1941 at three other camps: Belzec,
Treblinka and Wolzek. The "Wolzek" camp mentioned by Hoess is a total
invention. No such camp existed, and the name is no longer mentioned in
Holocaust literature. Moreover, the story these days by those who believe
in the Holocaust legend is that gassings of Jews did not begin at
Auschwitz, Treblinka, or Belzec until sometime in 1942.
No Documentary Evidence
Many thousands of secret German documents dealing with Auschwitz were
confiscated after the war by the Allies. Not a single one refers to a
policy or program of extermination. In fact, the extermination story cannot
be reconciled with the documentary evidence.
Many Jewish Inmates Unable to Work
For example, it is often claimed that all Jews at Auschwitz who were unable
to work were immediately killed. Jews who were too old, young, sick, or
weak were supposedly gassed on arrival, and only those who could be worked
to death were temporarily kept alive.
But the evidence shows that, in fact, a very high percentage of the Jewish
inmates were not able to work, and were nevertheless not killed. For
example, an internal German telex message dated Sept. 4, 1943, from the
chief of the Labor Allocation department of the SS Economic and
Administrative Main Office (WVHA), reported that of 25,000 Jewish inmates
in Auschwitz, only 3,581 were able to work, and that all of the remaining
Jewish inmates Q some 21,500, or about 86 percent Q were unable to work.
(note 7)
This is also confirmed in a secret report dated April 5, 1944, on "security
measures in Auschwitz" by Oswald Pohl, head of the SS concentration camp
system, to SS chief Heinrich Himmler. Pohl reported that there was a total
of 67,000 inmates in the entire Auschwitz camp complex, of whom 18,000 were
hospitalized or disabled. In the Auschwitz II camp (Birkenau), supposedly
the main extermination center, there were 36,000 inmates, mostly female, of
whom "approximately 15,000 are unable to work." (note 8)
These two documents simply cannot be reconciled with the Auschwitz
extermination story.
The evidence shows that Auschwitz-Birkenau was established primarily as a
camp for Jews who were not able to work, including the sick and elderly, as
well as for those who were temporarily awaiting assignment to other camps.
That's the considered view of Dr. Arthur Butz of Northwestern University,
who also says that this was the reason for the unusually high death rate
there. (note 9)
Princeton University history professor Arno Mayer, who is Jewish,
acknowledges in a recent book about the "final solution" that more Jews
perished at Auschwitz as a result of typhus and other "natural" causes than
were executed. (note 10)
Anne Frank
Perhaps the best known Auschwitz inmate was Anne Frank, who is known around
the world for her famous diary. But few people know that thousands of Jews,
including Anne and her father, Otto Frank, "survived" Auschwitz.
The 15-year-old girl and her father were deported from the Netherlands to
Auschwitz in September 1944. Several weeks later, in the face of the
advancing Soviet army, Anne was evacuated along with many other Jews to the
Bergen-Belsen camp, where she died of typhus in March 1945.
Her father came down with typhus in Auschwitz and was sent to the camp
hospital to recover. He was one of thousands of sick and feeble Jews who
were left behind when the Germans abandoned the camp in January 1945,
shortly before it was overrun by the Soviets. He died in Switzerland in
1980.
If the German policy had been to kill Anne Frank and her father, they would
not have survived Auschwitz. Their fate, tragic though it was, cannot be
reconciled with the extermination story.
Allied Propaganda
The Auschwitz gassing story is based in large part on the hearsay
statements of former Jewish inmates who did not personally see any evidence
of extermination. Their beliefs are understandable, because rumors about
gassings at Auschwitz were widespread.
Allied planes dropped large numbers of leaflets, written in Polish and
German, on Auschwitz and the surrounding areas which claimed that people
were being gassed in the camp. The Auschwitz gassing story, which was an
important part of the Allied wartime propaganda effort, was also broadcast
to Europe by Allied radio stations. (note 11)
Survivor Testimony
Former inmates have confirmed that they saw no evidence of extermination at
Auschwitz.
An Austrian woman, Maria Vanherwaarden, testified about her camp
experiences in a Toronto District Court in March 1988. She was interned in
Auschwitz-Birkenau in 1942 for having sexual relations with a Polish forced
laborer. On the train trip to the camp, a Gypsy woman told her and the
others that they would all be gassed at Auschwitz.
Upon arrival, Maria and the other women were ordered to undress and go into
a large concrete room without windows to take a shower. The terrified women
were sure that they were about to die. But then, instead of gas, water came
out of the shower heads.
Auschwitz was no vacation center, Maria confirmed. She witnessed the death
of many fellow inmates by disease, particularly typhus, and quite a few
committed suicide. But she saw no evidence at all of mass killings,
gassings, or of any extermination program. (note 12)
A Jewish woman named Marika Frank arrived at Auschwitz-Birkenau from
Hungary in July 1944, when 25,000 Jews were supposedly gassed and cremated
daily. She likewise testified after the war that she heard and saw nothing
of "gas chambers" during the time she was interned there. She heard the
gassing stories only later. (note 13)
Inmates Released
Auschwitz internees who had served their sentences were released and
returned to their home countries. If Auschwitz had actually been a top
secret extermination center, the Germans would certainly not have released
inmates who "knew" what was happening in the camp. (note 14)
Himmler Orders Death Rate Reduced
In response to the deaths of many inmates due to disease, especially
typhus, the German authorities responsible for the camps ordered firm
counter-measures.
The head of the SS camp administration office sent a directive dated Dec.
28, 1942, to Auschwitz and the other concentration camps. It sharply
criticized the high death rate of inmates due to disease, and ordered that
"camp physicians must use all means at their disposal to significantly
reduce the death rate in the various camps." Furthermore, it ordered:
The camp doctors must supervise more often than in the past the nutrition
of the prisoners and, in cooperation with the administration, submit
improvement recommendations to the camp commandants... The camp doctors are
to see to it that the working conditions at the various labor places are
improved as much as possible.
Finally, the directive stressed that "the Reichsfuehrer SS [Heinrich
Himmler] has ordered that the death rate absolutely must be reduced." (note
15)
German Camp Regulations
Official German camp regulations make clear that Auschwitz was not an
extermination center. They ordered:
The new arrivals in the camp have to be examined carefully. Those suspected
should immediately be put into the camp hospital and kept there for
observation.
Prisoners asking for medical treatment should be brought before the camp
doctor that same day to be examined.
The camp doctor should regularly check how the food is prepared and its
quality. Any shortcomings should immediately be brought to the attention of
the camp commandant. Special care should be given to the treatment of
accidents, so as to avoid impairment of the prisoners' ability to earn
their living. Prisoners who are to be set free or transferred from the camp
should be brought before the camp physician for medical examination. (note
16)
Telltale Aerial Photos
Detailed aerial reconnaissance photographs taken of Auschwitz-Birkenau on
several random days in 1944 (during the height of the alleged extermination
period there) were made public by the CIA in 1979. They show no trace of
the piles of corpses, smoking crematory chimneys or masses of Jews awaiting
death which have been alleged and which would have been clearly visible if
Auschwitz had indeed been an extermination center. (note 17)
Absurd Cremation Claims
Cremation specialists have confirmed that thousands of corpses could not
possibly have been cremated every day throughout the spring and summer of
1944 at Auschwitz, as commonly alleged.
For example, Mr. Ivan Lagace, manager of a large crematory in Calgary,
Canada, testified in court in April 1988 that the Auschwitz cremation story
is technically impossible. The allegation that 10,000 or even 20,000
corpses were burned every day at Auschwitz in the summer of 1944 in
crematories and open pits is simply "preposterous" and "beyond the realm of
reality," he declared under oath. (note 18)
Gassing Expert Refutes Extermination Story
America's leading gas chamber expert, Boston engineer Fred A. Leuchter,
carefully examined the supposed "gas chambers" in Poland and concluded that
the Auschwitz gassing story is absurd and technically impossible.
Leuchter is the foremost specialist on the design and installation of gas
chambers used in the United States to execute convicted criminals. For
example, he designed a gas chamber facility for the Missouri state
penitentiary.
In February 1988 he carried out a detailed on-site examination of the "gas
chambers" at Auschwitz, Birkenau and Majdanek in Poland, which are either
still standing or only partially in ruins. In sworn testimony to a Toronto
court and in a technical report, Leuchter described every aspect of his
investigation.
He concluded by emphatically declaring that the alleged gassing facilities
could not possibly have been used to kill people. Among other things, he
pointed out that the so-called "gas chambers" were not properly sealed or
vented to kill human beings without also killing German camp personnel.
(note 19)
Dr. William B. Lindsey, a research chemist employed for 33 years by the
Dupont Corporation, likewise testified in a 1985 court case that the
Auschwitz gassing story is technically impossible. Based on a careful
on-site examination of the "gas chambers" at Auschwitz, Birkenau and
Majdanek, and on his years of experience, he declared: "I have come to the
conclusion that no one was willfully or purposefully killed with Zyklon B
[hydrocyanic acid gas] in this manner. I consider it absolutely
impossible." (note 20)
Conclusion
The Auschwitz extermination story originated as wartime propaganda. Now,
more than 40 years after the end of the Second World War, it's time to take
another, more objective look at this highly polemicized chapter of history.
The Auschwitz legend is the core of the Holocaust story. If hundreds of
thousands of Jews were not systematically killed there, as alleged, one of
the great myths of our time collapses.
Artificially maintaining the hatreds and passions of the past prevents
genuine reconciliation and lasting peace. Revisionism promotes historical
awareness and international understanding. That's why the work of the
Institute for Historical Review is so important and deserves your support.
Notes
1. Nuremberg document 008-USSR. IMT blue series, Vol. 39, pp. 241, 261.;
NC&A red series, vol. 1, p. 35; C.L. Sulzberger, "Oswiecim Killings Placed
at 4,000,000," New York Times, May 8, 1945, and, New York Times, Jan. 31,
1986, p. A4.
2. Y. Bauer, "Fighting the Distortions," Jerusalem Post (Israel), Sept. 22,
1989; "Auschwitz Deaths Reduced to a Million,," Daily Telegraph (London),
July 17, 1990; "Poland Reduces Auschwitz Death Toll Estimate to 1 Million,"
The Washington Times, July 17, 1990.
3. Washington (DC) Daily News, Feb. 2, 1945, pp. 2, 35. (United Press
dispatch from Moscow).
4. IMT blue series, Vol. 16, p. 529-530. (June 21, 1946).
5. Nuremberg document 3868-PS (USA-819). IMT blue series, Vol. 33, pp.
275-279.
6. Rupert Butler, Legions of Death (England: 1983), pp. 235; R. Faurisson,
Journal of Historical Review, Winter 1986-87, pp. 389-403.
7. Archives of the Jewish Historical Institute of Warsaw, German document
No. 128, in: H. Eschwege, ed., Kennzeichen J (East Berlin: 1966), p. 264.
8. Nuremberg document NO-021. NMT green series, Vol. 5. pp. 384-385.
9. Arthur Butz, Hoax of the Twentieth Century (Costa Mesa, Calif.), p. 124.
10. Arno Mayer, Why Did the Heavens Not Darken?: The "Final Solution" in
History (Pantheon, 1989), p. 365.
11. Nuremberg document NI-11696. NMT green series, Vol. 8, p. 606.
12. Testimony in Toronto District Court, March 28, 1988. Toronto Star,
March 29, 1988, p. A2.
13. Sylvia Rothchild, ed., Voices from the Holocaust (New York: 1981), pp.
188-191.
14. Walter Laqueur, The Terrible Secret (Boston: 1981), p. 169.
15. Nuremberg document PS-2171, Annex 2. NC&A red series, Vol. 4, pp.
833-834.
16. "Lagerordnung fur die Konzentrationslager." Made public in 1962 by
former Auschwitz-Birkenau inmate Prof. Jan Olbrycht. English translation
published in Anthology, Inhuman Medicine, Vol. 1, Part 1, Warsaw:
International Auschwitz Committee, 1970, pp. 149-151.
17. Dino A. Brugioni and Robert C. Poirier, The Holocaust Revisited,
Washington, DC: Central Intelligence Agency, 1979.
18. Canadian Jewish News (Toronto), April 14, 1988, p. 6.
19. The Leuchter Report: An Engineering Report on the Alleged Execution Gas
Chambers at Auschwitz, Birkenau and Majdanek. Toronto: 1988. Available for
$17.00, postpaid, from the IHR.
20. The Globe and Mail (Toronto), Feb. 12, 1985, p. M3.
MARK WEBER is editor of the Journal of Historical Review, published by the
Institute for Historical Review. He studied history at the University of
Illinois (Chicago), the University of Munich, Portland State University,
and Indiana University (M.A., 1977). For five days in March 1988, he
testified as an expert witness on the "final solution" and the Holocaust
issue in a Toronto District Court case. His many articles, reviews and
essays on modern European history have appeared in various scholarly
journals and other periodicals.
Send $2.00 for a packet of literature and a full listing of books. Or,
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INSTITUTE FOR HISTORICAL REVIEW
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--
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Institute for Historical Review/PO Box 2739/Newport Beach, CA 92659
The Journal of Historical Review, 6 times/year, $40
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, $10.00 + $1.00 shipping
From oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news.itd.umich.edu!via.kz.merit.edu!user Thu Jul 28 12:24:32 PDT 1994
Article: 14357 of alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news.itd.umich.edu!via.kz.merit.edu!user
From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Keren's methodology
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 1994 07:59:06 -0400
Organization: University of Michigan
Lines: 21
Message-ID:
References:
<315k1n$88k@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 35.132.2.11
greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote:
> Pretty sweeping comment from someone who apparently thinks that a TESTIMONY
> about an EXPERIMENTAL gassing of RUSSIAN POW is proof that the Nazis had a
> plan to exterminate Jews!
Mr. Raven has never challenged the authenticity of the evidence that Dr. Keren
presented regarding this gassing of POWs (note the plural).
It would seem that he accepts that the gassing took place!
And it is amazing that he is so stuck on Jews that he is unwilling to discuss
the other victims of the Nazi mass murders. Talk about single-minded.
I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.
Perhaps at some point he will rebut testimony regarding the gassing of
Jews by insisting that the victims were not really Jews, but Russians
disguised as Jews, and that therefore his "challenge" has not been met!
--
Jamie McCarthy Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu AppleLink: j.mccarthy
I speak for no one but myself.
From oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news.itd.umich.edu!via.kz.merit.edu!user Thu Jul 28 12:53:41 PDT 1994
Article: 14362 of alt.revisionism
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The deliberate starvation policy of Hitler
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 1994 08:10:24 -0400
Organization: University of Michigan
Lines: 22
Message-ID:
References: <2vpbnp$cpq@search01.news.aol.com>
<1994Jul1
<1994Jul25.191142.4605@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
<315haq$686@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 35.132.2.11
greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote:
> Are you aware that forensic
> examination of the "human skin" products by American authorities showed the
> products to be made of goat skin?
Sigh...Ken, if it's not too much trouble, could you post your archive's article
on the human skin thing. You know, the one that points out how the deniers
distort reality by talking about some of the "skin products" that were shown
to be goat skin, whereas others are obviously human because they have tattoos
on them? (Unless the Nazis were into tattooing goats.) It also points out
something about their confusing two periods of time, as well, I think, or
maybe treating two different people as if they were the same...
...hell, it's been a long time since I've read it and I really don't care.
There's so much to talk about and so little bandwidth. I wish the Nazis could
stay off the relatively unimportant topics like lampshades and Anne Frank,
and stick to the issues that matter, historically speaking. Then again,
that's probably too much to ask.
--
Jamie McCarthy Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu AppleLink: j.mccarthy
I speak for no one but myself.
From oneb!kmcvay Thu Jul 28 13:11:56 PDT 1994
Article: 14363 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!kmcvay
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Subject: Lampshades, tattood goats, and Raven's Myopia...
References: <315haq$686@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Message-ID: <1994Jul28.195908.4578@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 94 19:59:08 GMT
In article k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) writes:
>greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote:
>> Are you aware that forensic
>> examination of the "human skin" products by American authorities showed the
>> products to be made of goat skin?
>
>Sigh...Ken, if it's not too much trouble, could you post your archive's article
>on the human skin thing. You know, the one that points out how the deniers
I think I will wait until Mr. Raven responds to our May 4 article,
which he seems determined to ignore. Once that's out of the way, and
Mr. Raven's May 4 Myopia clears up, we can move on to other matters.
Those interested, however, are invited to make use of the archival
material here, which will dispense with Mr. Raven's latest claptrap
in short order. Instructions for using the archives were posted here
earlier today - anyone who didn't see them can simply send the
command HELP GET to server@oneb.almanac.bc.ca.
--
"Everything I do is done with the full knowledge of the Fuehrer."
(Himmler, Heinrich. See Jochen von Lang, "Der Adjutant: Karl Wolff,"
Munich: Herbig, 1985, pp . 140ff)
From oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!news.duke.edu!eff!news.umbc.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!cat.cis.Brown.EDU!dzk Thu Jul 28 15:31:37 PDT 1994
Article: 14365 of alt.revisionism
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Keren's methodology
Date: 28 Jul 1994 08:43:43 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 57
Message-ID: <317r3v$arj@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
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X-ORIGINAL-NEWSGROUPS: alt.revisionism
I am not "interested" in personal details about Greg Raven. I was
merely noting that, like most other "revisionists", he's a Hitler
admirer. It also seems he has no qualifications or reputation
as a historian, at least, he doesn't seem to be interested
to specify them.
Also, I do not consider the fact that Soviet POWs were gassed in
Auschwitz as a proof that there was mass gassings of Jews. I was only
pointing out that Jews were not the only ones gassed.
Re Raven's remark about documents:
Letter from Dr. Erhard Wetzel to Reichskommissar Lohse, October 25, 1941
[Hitler and the Final Solution - G. Fleming, University of California
Press, 1984, p. 70]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
With regard to my letter of 18 October 1941, please be informed that
Oberdiensleiter [Chief Executive Officer] Brack from the Fuehrer's
Chancellory has stated his readiness to assist in the construction of
the necessary accommodations and gassing apparatuses, so they must
first be constructed. Brack's view is that, since construction of the
apparatuses within the Reich would present far greater difficulties
than on-site production, the most expedient course of action is to
send his people directly to Riga, in particular his chemist Dr.
Kallmeyer, who will take the necessary steps from there.
Oberdiensleiter Brack further points out that the procedure in
question is not without its hazards, and that therefore special safety
precautions are needed. Under these circumstances, I ask you to
contact Oberdiensleiter Brack in the Fuehrer's Chancellory through
your higher SS and Police leader. Please request from him the
dispatching of the chemist Dr. Kallmeyer and any further assistants
that are needed. I might further point out that Sturmbannfuehrer
Eichmann, the adviser on Jewish affairs in the Reich main security
office, is in complete accord with this procedure. According to the
information received here from Sturmbannfuehrer Eichmann, camps for
Jews will be set up in Riga and Minsk, where Jews from the Altreich
[Germany proper] might also be sent. Jews are currently being
evacuated from the Altreich to Lodz and other camps, from which those
fit for work will be transferred to work forces in the east. Given the
present situation, Jews who are not fit for work can be eliminated
without qualms through use of the Brack device. Incidents such as
those that took place during the shootings of Jews in Vilna, according
to a report I have on my desk, can hardly be sanctioned, keeping in
mind that the executions were undertaken openly, and the new
procedures assure that such incidents will no longer be possible. Jews
fit for work, on the other hand, will be transported to work forces in
the east. That the men and women in this latter group must be kept
apart from each other goes without saying. Please keep me informed as
to any further measures you take.
-Danny Keren.
From oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!cat.cis.Brown.EDU!dzk Thu Jul 28 15:31:39 PDT 1994
Article: 14366 of alt.revisionism
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Keren's methodology
Date: 28 Jul 1994 08:50:05 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <317rft$ath@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References: <315k1n$88k@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <315pq6$d9t@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu
X-ORIGINAL-NEWSGROUPS: alt.revisionism
Apparently, Raven thinks I have to answer his silly questions. He
Doesn't understand that his questions are so ridiculous that
they are not worthy of an answer.
Nontheless, in the hope that one day this will sink into
Raven's skull, I will repeat that there is no single "best"
evidence to the Holocaust, just like there is no single
best evidence that WW2 actually happened. The proof is in
the amount of the evidence and in the convergence of the
evidence to the same global picture.
-Danny Keren.
From oneb!kmcvay Thu Jul 28 15:31:39 PDT 1994
Article: 14368 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!kmcvay
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Subject: Weber: Fabrications & Strawmen
Summary: Research material offered in response to Mr. Weber's aging
article
References:
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Lines: 130
Message-ID: <1994Jul28.222033.5395@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 94 22:20:33 GMT
In article Greg Raven
offers Mark Weber's "THE HOLOCAUST: Let's Hear Both Sides."
>At one time it was alleged that the Germans gassed Jews at Dachau,
>Buchenwald and other concentration camps in Germany proper. That part of
>the extermination story proved so untenable that it was abandoned more than
>twenty years ago.
Fabrication #1. Mr. Weber would have you believe that no Jews were
gassed in Germany.
According to the Institut Fuer Zeitgeschicthe, considered an authority
on this issue in Germany, and often been used as a source of
information on the Holocaust in various trials of Nazi war criminals
there, had this to say about Dachau only last year:
Dachau (Upper Bavaria, northeast of Munich): During the
establishment of a new house of cremation in 1942 also a gas
chamber was established in it in which in connection with the
medical experiments of the chief company commander of SS Dr.
Rascher also a few experimental gassings were undertaken, as more
recent research has confirmed. (On that see Gunther Kimmel: The
Concentration Camp Dachau. A study of the Nazi crimes of violence
in Bavaria in the NS-time II, edited by Martin Broszat and Elke
Froehlich, Munich, R. Oldenburg Press, 1979, P. 391.) Larger
gassing operations have not taken place in Dachau.
Truth: Jews were gassed at Dachau. Dachau is in Germany.
...and, as to the number of Jews exterminated, they added:
The number of the Jews killed in Europe due to the effects of the
Nazi tyranny amounts, according to the newest research to at least
5.29 million. Possibly, however, also more than six million.
Truth: An authoritative German historical institution has not
"abandoned" either the figure of six million victims, or the use of a
gas chamber at Dachau. (Request IFZ IFZ.001 for the complete IFZ
report sent to Dr. Keren last year - send the command GET IFZ IFZ.001
to server@oneb.almanac.bc.ca)
>No serious historian now supports the once supposedly proven story of
>"extermination camps" in the territory of the old German Reich. Even famed
>"Nazi hunter" Simon Wiesenthal acknowledged in 1975 that "there were no
>extermination camps on German soil." (note 1)
Strawman #1: Mr. Weber would have you believe that no Jews were
deliberately murdered within Germany, apparently because historians
note the absence of industrial killing factories there.
Send the command INDEX EUTHANASIA for references to one _small_ area
of Nazi activity that resulted in the deliberate extermination of not
only Jews, but many, many others.
>Prominent Holocaust historians now claim that masses of Jews were gassed at
>just six camps in what is now Poland: Auschwitz, Majdanek, Treblinka,
>Sobibor, Chelmno and Belzec. However, the "evidence" presented for
>"gassings" at these six camps is not qualitatively different than the
>"evidence" for alleged "gassings" at the camps in Germany proper.
Thank you, Mr. Weber. Since even the _German_ authorities note the
gassings at Dachau, we now understand that you accept the validity of
their evidence, and that it is not "qualitatively different" from
their evidence of mass, industrialized gassings in Poland. It is good
to see you finally admit it.
>At the great Nuremberg trial of 1945-1946 and during the decades following
>the end of the Second World War, Auschwitz (especially Auschwitz-Birkenau)
>and Majdanek (Lublin) were generally regarded as the really important
>"death camps." For example, the Allies alleged at Nuremberg that the
>Germans killed four million at Auschwitz and another 1.5 million at
>Majdanek. Today, no reputable historian accepts these fantastic figures.
Strawman #2. For an extensive examination of the Auschwitz death toll
figures and their history, send the command "GET AUSCHWITZ GAMBIT.001"
to server@oneb.almanac.bc.ca.
>In addition, more and more striking evidence has been presented in recent
>years which simply cannot be reconciled with the allegations of mass
>exterminations at these camps. For example, detailed aerial reconnaissance
>photographs taken of Auschwitz-Birkenau on several random days in 1944
>(during the height of the alleged extermination period there) were made
>public by the CIA in 1979. They show no trace of the piles of corpses,
>smoking chimneys and masses of Jews awaiting death, all of which have been
>alleged and would have been clearly visible if Auschwitz had indeed been an
>extermination center.
Send the command GET AUSCHWITZ AUSCHWITZ.FAQ2 for instructions on how
to obtain the CIA's report... it contains material Mr. Weber seems
to have overlooked.
>We now also know that the postwar "confession" of Auschwitz commandant
>Rudolf Hoss, which is a crucial part of the Holocaust extermination story,
>was obtained by torture. (note 2)
Strawman #3: Send the commands
GET HOLOCAUST/USA/SKEPTIC SKEPTIC.12
GET HOLOCAUST/GERMANY/HOESS HOESS.INTRO.01
to the server, and obtain sufficient data to dismiss Mr. Weber's
strawman out of hand.
[...]
>Jews were an important part of Germany's wartime labor force, and it was in
>Germany's interest to keep them alive.
Fabrication #2.
Send the command GET HOLOCAUST/USA/OREGON/B-CPU QUESTION.11 to obtain
a detailed and heavily documented refutation.
Truth: Jews were systematically exterminated.
[...]
>Six Million?
>There is no real evidence for the incessantly repeated claim that the
>Germans exterminated six million Jews. It is clear, though, that millions
>of Jews "survived" German rule during the Second World War, including many
>who were interned in Auschwitz and other so-called "extermination camps."
>This fact alone should raise serious doubts about the extermination story.
Fabrication #3. No further response merited.
--
"Everything I do is done with the full knowledge of the Fuehrer."
(Himmler, Heinrich. See Jochen von Lang, "Der Adjutant: Karl Wolff,"
Munich: Herbig, 1985, pp . 140ff)
From oneb!kmcvay Thu Jul 28 15:45:07 PDT 1994
Article: 14369 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!kmcvay
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Subject: Auschwitz facts: Where to find them
References:
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Message-ID: <1994Jul28.223120.5451@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 94 22:31:20 GMT
In article Greg Raven
offers Mark Weber's "Auschwitz: myths and facts:"
>Nearly everyone has heard of Auschwitz, the German concentration camp where
>great numbers of Jews and others were reportedly exterminated in gas
>chambers during the Second World War.
>Auschwitz is widely regarded as the most terrible Nazi extermination
>center. This image, however, cannot be reconciled with the facts.
>Scholars challenge Holocaust story
Mr. Weber challenges the story.
Mr. Faurisson challenges the story.
Mr. Berg challenges the story.
Mr. Vicksell challenges the story.
Mr. Zundel challenges the story.
Mr. Irving challenges the story.
Mr. Porter challenges the story.
Scholars do not. Scholars examine all existing evidence, and do
their utmost to determine the facts.
[...]
>Four Million Victims?
>At the postwar Nuremberg Tribunal, the Allies charged that the Germans
>exterminated four million people at Auschwitz. This figure, which was
>invented by the Soviets, was uncritically accepted for many years. It often
>appeared in major American newspapers and magazines, for example. (note 1)
>Today no reputable historian, not even those who generally accept the
>extermination story, believes this figure. Israeli Holocaust historian
>Yehuda Bauer said in 1989 that it is time to finally acknowledge the
>familiar four million figure is a deliberate myth. In July 1990 the
>Auschwitz State Museum in Poland, along with Israel's Yad Vashem Holocaust
>Center, suddenly announced that altogether perhaps one million people (both
>Jews and non-Jews) died there. Neither institution would say how many of
>these people were killed, nor were any estimates given of the numbers of
>those supposedly gassed. (note 2)
Send the command GET HOLOCAUST/POLAND/AUSCHWITZ GAMBIT.001 to
server@oneb.almanac.bc.ca to arm yourself against such nonsense.
>One prominent Holocaust historian, Gerald Reitlinger, has estimated that
>perhaps 700,000 or so Jews perished at Auschwitz. While even these lower
>figures are incorrect, they show how the Auschwitz story has changed
>drastically over the years.
Scholars examine all existing evidence, and do their utmost to determine
the facts. They do not, for instance, refuse to consider new
evidence because it does not fit within their concept of reality.
Mr. Raven and Mr. Weber, however, do. Draw your own conclusions.
The following video is available - send the command GET
HOLOCAUST/BIBLIOGRAPHY SSSS.VIDEO-1 to server@oneb.almanac.bc.ca to
learn where you can obtain it for your library or educational
institution.
HOLOCAUST: Liberation of Auschwitz. When Soviet troops liberated
Auschwitz on January 27, 1945, a cameraman accompanied them to record
the liberation process. This powerful program incorporates the
personal impressions of the camerman, Alexander Woronzow, with his
haunting footage. The camera documents the fearful faces of Auschwitz
survivors, who didn't know the Soviets were their liberators. The
commentary describes the selection process which sent some inmates to
work while others went to their deaths, horrific medical experiments,
and daily life within Auschwitz. WARNING: not recommended for
unprepared audiences due to the intensely graphic presentation of
atrocities. Grades 9 and up. Colour and black-and-white. 18 minutes.
Encyclopaedia Britannica. Copyright 1990.
--
"Everything I do is done with the full knowledge of the Fuehrer."
(Himmler, Heinrich. See Jochen von Lang, "Der Adjutant: Karl Wolff,"
Munich: Herbig, 1985, pp . 140ff)
From oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!trinews.sbc.com!news Thu Jul 28 19:09:10 PDT 1994
Article: 14375 of alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!trinews.sbc.com!news
From: Alan Asper
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz myths and facts
Date: 28 Jul 1994 13:41:47 GMT
Organization: Southwestern Bell Technology Resources, Inc.
Lines: 21
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <318cir$3pf@sbctri.sbc.com>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: mac-asper.sbc.com
X-UserAgent: Version 1.1.3
X-XXDate: Thu, 28 Jul 94 13:45:17 GMT
In article Greg Raven,
greg.ihr@kaiwan.com writes:
>supposedly the main extermination center, and Monowitz, or Auschwitz III,
>was a large industrial center where gasoline was produced from coal.
If you are referring to coal gasification, that's the production
of gas, not gasoline, from coal. If you could make gasoline from
coal, the US--with enormous coal reserves--would never have
a fuel crisis and gasoline would cost about 20 cents per gallon.
So get your facts straight, fuckhead. How are you supposed to
convince conservative white Christian Anglo-Saxons like
myself to rally to the Aryan banner if you can't figure out
something as simple as this, which is in the DICTIONARY,
fer chrissakes?
Do better next time, dork.
Alan
My opinions are not those of my employer.
From oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!cat.cis.Brown.EDU!dzk Thu Jul 28 19:09:11 PDT 1994
Article: 14376 of alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!cat.cis.Brown.EDU!dzk
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Liberation of the camps
Date: 28 Jul 1994 09:09:59 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <317sl7$bg6@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu
X-ORIGINAL-NEWSGROUPS: alt.revisionism
This is old stuff, already posted here by Gannon many times in
the past.
Just to demonstrate how "revisionists" omit and lie, look at this
article, which quotes SS judge Dr. Morgen as one whose
testimony supports "Holocaust revisionism". But, in the Auschwitz
trial at Frankfurt, Morgen did testify about the gassings at
Auschwitz.
It is good to see that our "revisionists scholars" accept Morgen as
a reliable witness.
-Danny Keren.
From oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!cat.cis.Brown.EDU!dzk Thu Jul 28 19:18:53 PDT 1994
Article: 14377 of alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!cat.cis.Brown.EDU!dzk
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz myths and facts
Date: 28 Jul 1994 09:15:41 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <317svt$bp2@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu
X-ORIGINAL-NEWSGROUPS: alt.revisionism
I find it unbelievable that "revisionists" still quote Leuchter's
report, which is so horribly stupid. The "report" is so
ridiculous that even "revisionsts" have contradicted it many times
themselves.
Really, it's time for something new. It is boring to see this
tired old nonsense that Gannon posted here a zillion times.
-Danny Keren.
From oneb!kmcvay Thu Jul 28 19:22:07 PDT 1994
Article: 14378 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!kmcvay
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Subject: Mark Weber's myths and facts
References: <318cir$3pf@sbctri.sbc.com>
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Message-ID: <1994Jul29.021846.7253@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 94 02:18:46 GMT
In article <318cir$3pf@sbctri.sbc.com> Alan Asper responded to a
post from that noted professional propagandist, Greg Raven... Mr.
Raven, of course, was citing that renowned historical scholar, Mark
Weber, another professional propagandist with proven ties to German
nazis...
>>supposedly the main extermination center, and Monowitz, or Auschwitz III,
>>was a large industrial center where gasoline was produced from coal.
>If you are referring to coal gasification, that's the production
>of gas, not gasoline, from coal. If you could make gasoline from
>coal, the US--with enormous coal reserves--would never have
>a fuel crisis and gasoline would cost about 20 cents per gallon.
>So get your facts straight, fuckhead. How are you supposed to
>convince conservative white Christian Anglo-Saxons like
>myself to rally to the Aryan banner if you can't figure out
>something as simple as this, which is in the DICTIONARY,
>fer chrissakes?
He also neglected to mention Farben's Buna plant, at Monowitz, which
never produced any artificial rubber, as best I can recall... it
did, however, manage to starve slaves to death within three months..
and they were on the "enriched" diet of "Buna soup."
It should not surprise anyone here that neither Mr. Raven nor Mr.
Weber, who holds a degree in history, are capable of getting their
facts straight. Given their track record here, one should rather be
amazed when they _do_.
Perhaps, given Weber's failure to get things right, it was he who
infected Mr. Raven with the May 4th. Myopia.. that would certainly
explain it :-)
--
"Everything I do is done with the full knowledge of the Fuehrer."
(Himmler, Heinrich. See Jochen von Lang, "Der Adjutant: Karl Wolff,"
Munich: Herbig, 1985, pp . 140ff)
From oneb!kmcvay Thu Jul 28 19:23:40 PDT 1994
Article: 14379 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!kmcvay
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Subject: The IHR's myths and facts
Summary: Has the IHR censored their Parrot, the esteemed NB Gannon?
References: <317svt$bp2@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Message-ID: <1994Jul29.022158.7331@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 94 02:21:58 GMT
In article <317svt$bp2@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
>Really, it's time for something new. It is boring to see this
>tired old nonsense that Gannon posted here a zillion times.
Have you noticed that Parrot hasn't posted IHR propaganda in quite
some time? Perhaps, given the high level of embarrassment he brought
to the IHR, Mssrs. Raven and Weber decided that it would make more
sense if they simply embarrassed themselves directly.
--
"Everything I do is done with the full knowledge of the Fuehrer."
(Himmler, Heinrich. See Jochen von Lang, "Der Adjutant: Karl Wolff,"
Munich: Herbig, 1985, pp . 140ff)
From oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news.intercon.com!news1.digex.net!access.digex.net!not-for-mail Thu Jul 28 21:18:54 PDT 1994
Article: 14381 of alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news.intercon.com!news1.digex.net!access.digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The deliberate starvation policy of Hitler
Date: 28 Jul 1994 10:46:57 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <318gd1$jqn@access2.digex.net>
References: <2vpbnp$cpq@search01.news.aol.com> <315haq$686@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net
In article ,
Greg Raven wrote:
>Be that as it may, are you aware that the shrunken head has disappeared,
>and is nowhere to be found (that is, tested)? Are you aware that forensic
>examination of the "human skin" products by American authorities showed the
>products to be made of goat skin? Are you aware that there are no extant
>examples of "human skin" products that can be tested? A GIF file is hardly
>proof that such astonishing accusations against the Germans have any claim
>to truth.
Are you aware that all of the above are undocumented assertions? Are
you aware Jamie McCarthy checked on the Vanity Fair article you cited a
couple of months ago, and your claim that Lipstadt said "the Hoess
statements are useless" is false?
Are you aware that since you have been proven to make false claims, we
don't accept what you say just because you say so? Why should anyone
trust you on these claims any more than you could be trusted to quote the
Vanity Fair article correctly?
The unsupported assertion of a proven untrustworthy source such as
Greg Raven is hardly proof that such astonishing accusations that the
generally accepted Holocaust history is a hoax have any claim to truth.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news.intercon.com!news1.digex.net!access.digex.net!not-for-mail Thu Jul 28 21:18:55 PDT 1994
Article: 14382 of alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news.intercon.com!news1.digex.net!access.digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: open debate
Date: 28 Jul 1994 10:59:21 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <318h49$k7u@access2.digex.net>
References: <30vcc4$no3@access1.digex.net> <314ckc$fk6@search01.news.aol.com> <31630h$jo8@access2.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net
In article ,
Greg Raven wrote:
>In article <31630h$jo8@access2.digex.net>,
mstein@access.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>> AOL is known to have some deficiencies in the user interface, so it is
>> not clear if the ["YES"] is meant merely as a paraphrase of my
>> answer, or the answer to my
>> question (not quoted in Mr. Smith's post) about whether a debate should be
>> conducted with facts, logic, consistency, evidence, examination and
>> legitimate response to ALL evidence, and honest in-context quotation. I
>> ask that Mr. Smith clarify this posting.
>
>Although Bradley scarcely needs me to speak on his behalf, I talked with
>him today on the phone and he indicated that he is still getting acclimated
>to AOL's version of Internet access. He thought he was answering "yes" to
>the bottom of your message, if that helps.
It helps immensely. And since I have your attention, Greg, could you
please give me a yes-or-no answer to to same question? Do you agree that
a debate should be conducted under the terms I outlined? (In the original
question, "consistency" read "consistent rules of inference and standards
of proof.")
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!alberta!quartz.ucs.ualberta.ca!tribune.usask.ca!decwrl!ames!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!netline-fddi.jpl.nasa.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!news.cerf.net!mvb.saic.com!MathWorks.Com!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!gumby!kzoo!k044477 Thu Jul 28 21:18:56 PDT 1994
Article: 14383 of alt.revisionism
Xref: oneb misc.test:38213 alt.revisionism:14383
Newsgroups: misc.test,alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!alberta!quartz.ucs.ualberta.ca!tribune.usask.ca!decwrl!ames!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!netline-fddi.jpl.nasa.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!news.cerf.net!mvb.saic.com!MathWorks.Com!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!gumby!kzoo!k044477
From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie R. McCarthy)
Subject: Re: Keren's methodology
Message-ID: <1994Jul28.152354.10826@hobbes.kzoo.edu>
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Organization: Kalamazoo College, Kalamazoo MI 49006
References:
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 1994 15:23:54 GMT
Lines: 106
greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote:
> For example, one good piece of evidence
> would be a message from an "extermination camp" to Berlin saying, "We have
> gassed the last of the trainloads of Jews as you ordered."
I'm sorry, Mr. Raven, but by your own standards this is a _terrible_
piece of evidence.
(1) Why on earth would the Nazis have written such a communication in
English? The answer is, they wouldn't. This "message" is obviously a
Jewish forgery, concocted after the war.
(2) The "message" states that the _last_ of the trainloads of Jews was
gassed. What about the first? The second? All the ones in the middle?
Were they gassed? The "message" doesn't say. Why not? What does it
have to hide?
(3) This is not one of the pieces of evidence that we see very often.
Why is that? Why have the exterminationists resorted to using
"evidence" that is uncommon or rare? What are they hiding?
(4) It is interesting to see what this evidence is _not_. It is _not_
the testimony of Hoess, which exterminationists often use. Neither is
it the testimony of Gerstein, nor Kremer, nor Broad, nor Pfannenstiel,
nor is it a speech of Hitler's or Himmler's. Obviously the
exterminationists know which side their bread is buttered on. They
know better than to try to use any of _that_ "evidence"! As they know,
prominent exterminationists have admitted that all of that "evidence"
is totally bogus.
(5) You say we have a "message." Do we really have a "message"? No, we
do not. Such official communications were sent by telegraph or
wireless, and it is impossible to record such a communication,
obviously. Unless you claim to have a recording of the telegraph
transmission, which is obviously impossible! So what we have is a
_transcription_ of a _telegraph_ of a message allegedly intended to
express the meaning that someone was gassed. This is many steps removed
from the _actual_ message, and as such is obviously untrustworthy
evidence.
(6) This "message" was found in Soviet archives after the war, so there
is no way to verify that it was not forged. Obviously, the Soviets had
much incentive to vilify the Third Reich by making up "documents" such
as this one.
(7) In fact, the "message" is not handwritten, it is typed. Obviously,
typewritten documents are easily forged. The message is not signed or
even initialed by _either_ of the parties, not the one sending the
"message" nor the one receiving the "message." And it was obviously not
even typed on a Nazi typewriter, because the letters "ss" in the word
"gassed" were typed without the special "ss" key that Nazi typewriters
had. So this forgery is not even a very good one! Where is the carbon
copy of this "message"? Vanished into Soviet hands, no doubt.
(8) Let's think about this word "gassed." Now, virtually everyone knows
that Zyklon-B gas had to be used to disinfect the prisoners as they
arrived at the camp. This is obviously the meaning of the word "gassed"
as it is used in the sentence. Think about it--did the Nazis mean that
they _killed_ Jews with this gas?! And were they broadcasting this
information along an open telegraph wire!? And with the "Holocaust"
supposed to be a big secret that they were concealing from everyone!
Ha ha! That is a good joke! Obviously the Nazis were merely sending
along the information that the last trainload of Jews were
_disinfected_. This "message" is perfectly harmless evidence of how
concerned the Nazis were for the Jews' well-being. They didn't want
them to catch typhus, after all!
I'm sorry, Mr. Raven, but I'm afraid I find this "evidence" you have
presented for the "Holocaust" to be completely worthless. I'm surprised
that you think that this is the "best evidence" available; your case
for the "Holocaust" must really be weak. You may disagree with me, but
I'm afraid we must agree to disagree.
Next piece of "evidence," please!
Greg Raven, on 26 Apr 1994, in <2pi7nk$dqj@kaiwan.kaiwan.com>:
> Fifth, it is interesting to see what is NOT here. For example, there are no
> statements made by Auschwitz Commandant Rudolf Hoess, who for years has
> been held out as proof there were gassings (the U.S. Holocaust Memorial
> Museum depends on a Hoess statement to make its point).
Friedrich Berg, on 17 Jul 1994, in <30cdki$6q@ankh.iia.org>:
> Stein's "document" is no Nazi document at all. What is also obvious to me
> is that the transcription was the work of someone who had a very poor
> knowledge of German and, furthermore, it was not even typed on a
> German typewriter which would have had a number of special characters
> which do not appear in the "transcription" at all. Note that neither the
> "carbon" from which the transcription was "supposedly" copied, nor the
> original report of Franke-Gricksch, from which the carbon would have been
> a copy, have ever been found.
Jack Wikoff, on 2 Jun 1994, posting through Ross Vicksell in
:
> just because HCN was found on ventilation grills, it does not
> mean people were murdered in these buildings. Every historian of
> Auschwitz/Birkenau knows that tons of Zyklon B were used legitimately for
> delousing all over the entire camp complex. For example, HCN was found
> by the Soviets in bundles of hair collected by the Germans. The motto in
> the camps was "One louse, your life."
--
Jamie McCarthy Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu AppleLink: j.mccarthy
If your email is related to my job, please send it to mccarthy@lpi.com.
I speak for no one but myself.
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Article: 14385 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: uroessl1@gwdu03.gwdg.de (Uwe Roessler)
Subject: Re: Auschwitz myths and facts
Message-ID: <582QBVKF@gwdu03.gwdg.de>
Organization: GWDG, Goettingen
References:
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 1994 16:15:32 GMT
Lines: 25
How it works:
greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:
>Auschwitz: myths and facts
>by Mark Weber
>Nearly everyone has heard of Auschwitz, the German concentration camp where
>great numbers of Jews and others were reportedly exterminated in gas
>chambers during the Second World War.
>Auschwitz is widely regarded as the most terrible Nazi extermination
>center. This image, however, cannot be reconciled with the facts.
So, we come to understand, Weber found out, there existed Nazi
extermination centers worse than Auschwitz.
I'm interested to hear, how Weber tries to prove this claim.
u.roessler uroessl1@gwdg.de
"Denk an die Nazi-Zeit! Chauvinistisch von innen gesehen?:
ein strahlendes HerrenVolk; fuehrend in Kultur & ueberhaupt allem! -
Von aussen betrachtet?: eine Horde Irrsinniger FolterKnechte;
auf einem foermlichen Wettrennen in finsterste Barbarei begriffen!"
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Article: 14386 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz myths and facts
Date: 28 Jul 1994 13:39:25 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <318qgd$ogj@access2.digex.net>
References: <582QBVKF@gwdu03.gwdg.de>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net
In article <582QBVKF@gwdu03.gwdg.de>,
Uwe Roessler wrote:
>greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:
>
>>Auschwitz: myths and facts
>
>>by Mark Weber
>[...]
>>Auschwitz is widely regarded as the most terrible Nazi extermination
>>center. This image, however, cannot be reconciled with the facts.
>
>So, we come to understand, Weber found out, there existed Nazi
>extermination centers worse than Auschwitz.
>I'm interested to hear, how Weber tries to prove this claim.
Weber is correct. If one measures in percentage terms rather than raw
body count, the Operation Reinhard camps were far worse. Many people
entered Auschwitz and survived - which is precisely why Auschwitz is much
better known. Of the hundreds of thousands who entered Treblinka and
Sobibor, however, I believe the number of survivors was somewhere in the
low hundreds. Furthermore, while at Auschwitz the gas chamber victims
were killed relatively quickly by cyanide, at the Reinhard camps the
victims who were not shot died of asphyxiation.
The worst, however, was Belzec. As far as I have heard, only two Jews
who entered Belzec could be found alive at the end of the war. Therefore
I am forced to agree that Weber is right - Belzec, not Auschwitz, can lay
claim to the title of "most terrible Nazi extermination center."
So I guess the Holocaust "revisionists" do get their facts straight
once in a while.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
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Article: 14388 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: uroessl1@gwdu03.gwdg.de (Uwe Roessler)
Subject: Re: Auschwitz myths and facts
Message-ID:
Organization: GWDG, Goettingen
References:
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 1994 20:35:23 GMT
Lines: 41
greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:
>Auschwitz: myths and facts
>by Mark Weber
.
[The usual]
.
>Conclusion
.
>Artificially maintaining the hatreds and passions of the past prevents
>genuine reconciliation and lasting peace. Revisionism promotes historical
>awareness and international understanding. That's why the work of the
>Institute for Historical Review is so important and deserves your support.
.
.
>Notes .
.
[Terrific apparatus of notes]
.
.
>19. The Leuchter Report: An Engineering Report on the Alleged Execution Gas
>Chambers at Auschwitz, Birkenau and Majdanek. Toronto: 1988. Available for
>$17.00, postpaid, from the IHR.
.
[] .
.
The Leuchter Report is best-selling among the skinheads
who are beating up foreigners in our streets.[1]
Notes
1. W.Benz (Hg.): Rechtsradikalismus in der Bundesrepublik,
Fischer Taschenbuch, Frankfurt am Main 1994
u.roessler uroessl1@gwdg.de
"Denk an die Nazi-Zeit! Chauvinistisch von innen gesehen?:
ein strahlendes Herren-Volk; fuehrend in Kultur & ueberhaupt allem! -
Von aussen betrachtet?: eine Hode Irrsinniger FolterKnechte;
auf einem foermlichen Wettrennen in finsterste Barbarei begriffen!"
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Article: 14399 of alt.revisionism
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From: bergf@iia.org (Friedrich Berg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz myths and facts
Date: 29 Jul 1994 03:59:46 GMT
Organization: International Internet Association.
Lines: 46
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <319uri$lfv@ankh.iia.org>
References: <318cir$3pf@sbctri.sbc.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: mary.iia.org
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Dear Mr. Asper,
What in the world are you so shocked about? Didn't you know that those
backward Germans made most of their gasoline synthetically out of coal?
Didn't you know that the Germans were doing that at places like Auschwitz?
Didn't you know that to make gasoline out of coal, the first major step
in the process is to make carbon monoxide out of the coal? I am amazed.
I thought everyone knew that.
According to--The United States Strategic Bombing Survey: Oil Division
Final Report--1947, page 1,
An Empire Built on Coal, Air, and Water
Wartime Germany was a chemical empire built on coal, air, and water.
Eighty-four and a half per cent of her aviation fuel, 85 per cent of her
motor gasoline, all but a fraction of 1 per cent of her rubber, 100 per
cent of the concentrated nitric acid, basic component of all military
explosives, and 99 per cent of her equally important methanol were
synthesized from these three fundamental raw materials
. . . . .
....The body of this industrial organism was the gas-generating plants
which turned coal into process gases; its arms were the many plants that
used those gases and other material drawn from the coal to produce
synthetic fuels amd lubricants, chemicals, rubber, and explosive
products. The largest German chemical plant, at Leuna, consumed
338,000,000 cubic feet of hydrogen-containing process gas a day and
54,000,000 cubic feet of fuel gas, a total of nearly twice the peak
winter-time consumption of all New York City.
(End of Quote from US Strategic Bombing Survey)
One very important aspect of this is that this technology which made
enormous quantities of highly toxic CO, even at Auschwitz, has never been
implicated anywhere in the stories of the alleged gassings at Auschwitz or
anywhere else--even though an application of such technology would have
made a lot of sense technically. That's just one more reason for
rejecting the Holocaust story as the stupid hoax which it truly is.
FPBERG
P.S. The reason the US does not use coal to make gasoline is that it has
a far less expensive process; it uses petroleum. Germany, unfortunately,
had next to no petroleum at all--and yet, it fought a world war for five
years against the combined military might and resources, of most of the
world. According to some of the cookoos in this newsgroup, to generate
CO for mass murder, the Germans--otherwise so smart and resourceful--used
Diesel exhaust instead.
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Article: 14400 of alt.revisionism
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Keren's methodology
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 1994 21:15:04 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 23
Message-ID:
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan.kaiwan.com
In article , bzs@world.std.com (Barry
Shein) wrote:
>
> From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
> >For example, one good piece of evidence
> >would be a message from an "extermination camp" to Berlin saying, "We have
> >gassed the last of the trainloads of Jews as you ordered."
>
> Einsatzgruppe C
> Standort Kiev
>
> (etc., text deleted)
Which one of these is, do you feel, the best evidence that the Nazis has a
plan or policy to exterminate Jews in gas chambers?
--
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Institute for Historical Review/PO Box 2739/Newport Beach, CA 92659
The Journal of Historical Review, 6 times/year, $40
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, $10.00 + $1.00 shipping
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Article: 14401 of alt.revisionism
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Keren's methodology
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 1994 21:16:56 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 19
Message-ID:
References: <315k1n$88k@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <317r3v$arj@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan.kaiwan.com
In article <317r3v$arj@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
wrote:
> (text deleted)
>
> Letter from Dr. Erhard Wetzel to Reichskommissar Lohse, October 25, 1941
> [Hitler and the Final Solution - G. Fleming, University of California
> Press, 1984, p. 70]
> (text deleted)
Is this what you consider to be the best evidence of a Nazi plan or policy
to exterminate Jews in gas chambers?
--
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Institute for Historical Review/PO Box 2739/Newport Beach, CA 92659
The Journal of Historical Review, 6 times/year, $40
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, $10.00 + $1.00 shipping
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Article: 14402 of alt.revisionism
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Keren's methodology
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 1994 21:19:12 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 37
Message-ID:
References: <315k1n$88k@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <315pq6$d9t@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <317rft$ath@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan.kaiwan.com
In article <317rft$ath@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
wrote:
>
> Apparently, Raven thinks I have to answer his silly questions. He
> Doesn't understand that his questions are so ridiculous that
> they are not worthy of an answer.
>
> Nontheless, in the hope that one day this will sink into
> Raven's skull, I will repeat that there is no single "best"
> evidence to the Holocaust, just like there is no single
> best evidence that WW2 actually happened. The proof is in
> the amount of the evidence and in the convergence of the
> evidence to the same global picture.
>
>
> -Danny Keren.
Apparently you either have not read or have not understood my "silly
questions." I have never said that there is only one piece of evidence that
proves the Nazis had a plan or policy to exterminate the Jews in gas
chambers. What I have said is that we are always told there is a mountain
of evidence that proves these mass gassings. I am asking for the best
example of such evidence that we may look at it together. We will either
agree that it does provide proof, that it does not provide proof, or we
will agree to disagree. Then we go on to the next piece of the mauntain of
evidence.
Do you have any good evidence, and if so, please chose what you consider to
be your best piece of this evidence and let's look at it together.
--
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Institute for Historical Review/PO Box 2739/Newport Beach, CA 92659
The Journal of Historical Review, 6 times/year, $40
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, $10.00 + $1.00 shipping
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Article: 14403 of alt.revisionism
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Keren's methodology
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 1994 21:22:30 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 24
Message-ID:
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan.kaiwan.com
In article ,
k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
> (text deleted)
> Mr. Raven has never challenged the authenticity of the evidence that Dr. Keren
> presented regarding this gassing of POWs (note the plural).
>
> It would seem that he accepts that the gassing took place!
>
> And it is amazing that he is so stuck on Jews that he is unwilling to discuss
> the other victims of the Nazi mass murders. Talk about single-minded.
> I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.
Perhaps you missed the beginning of my posts here. I was asking for the
best evidence of a Nazi policy or plan of extermination of Jews in gas
chambers. Russian POW (short for "prisoners of war," just as "rpm" is short
for "revolutions per minute"). This is very simple.
--
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Institute for Historical Review/PO Box 2739/Newport Beach, CA 92659
The Journal of Historical Review, 6 times/year, $40
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, $10.00 + $1.00 shipping
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Article: 14404 of alt.revisionism
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From: golux@mcs.com (The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Keren's methodology
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 1994 23:39:34 -0600
Organization: MCSNet Services
Lines: 20
Message-ID:
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: golux.pr.mcs.net
In article ,
k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
[Re Greg Raven, whose return to the group has been less than stunning:]
> Talk about single-minded.
If that many.
(OK, I couldn't resist an easy opening like that. Guess I'm just a
hatemonger after all. My mom will be so disappointed.)
--
D. J. Schaeffer | The Todal looks like a blob of glup.
golux@mcs.com | It makes a sound like rabbits screaming,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ and smells of old, unopened rooms.
-- Thurber, _The 13 Clocks_
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Article: 14405 of alt.revisionism
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The deliberate starvation policy of Hitler
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 1994 21:28:28 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 16
Message-ID:
References: <317s08$b61@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan.kaiwan.com
In article <317s08$b61@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
wrote:
> I don't know if the shrunken heads and the ornaments made from human
> skin are kept or not. Perhaps they were buried out of respect for
> the victims - I have no idea. Anyway, the photographs remain, in
> various places.
It is very tough to conduct forensic tests on a photograph, even if it is a
GIF.
--
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Institute for Historical Review/PO Box 2739/Newport Beach, CA 92659
The Journal of Historical Review, 6 times/year, $40
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, $10.00 + $1.00 shipping
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Article: 14406 of alt.revisionism
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The deliberate starvation policy of Hitler
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 1994 21:30:46 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 79
Message-ID:
References: <2vpbnp$cpq@search01.news.aol.com> <315haq$686@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <318gd1$jqn@access2.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan.kaiwan.com
In article <318gd1$jqn@access2.digex.net>, mstein@access.digex.net (Michael
P. Stein) wrote:
> In article ,
> Greg Raven wrote:
> >Be that as it may, are you aware that the shrunken head has disappeared,
> >and is nowhere to be found (that is, tested)? Are you aware that forensic
> >examination of the "human skin" products by American authorities showed the
> >products to be made of goat skin? Are you aware that there are no extant
> >examples of "human skin" products that can be tested? A GIF file is hardly
> >proof that such astonishing accusations against the Germans have any claim
> >to truth.
>
> Are you aware that all of the above are undocumented assertions? Are
> you aware Jamie McCarthy checked on the Vanity Fair article you cited a
> couple of months ago, and your claim that Lipstadt said "the Hoess
> statements are useless" is false?
>
> Are you aware that since you have been proven to make false claims, we
> don't accept what you say just because you say so? Why should anyone
> trust you on these claims any more than you could be trusted to quote the
> Vanity Fair article correctly?
>
> The unsupported assertion of a proven untrustworthy source such as
> Greg Raven is hardly proof that such astonishing accusations that the
> generally accepted Holocaust history is a hoax have any claim to truth.
I missed Jamie McCarthy's post on this matter, but let's look at the text
of the Vanity Fair article and see what it says:
Whose History Is It?
Christopher Hitchens
Vanity Fair, December 1993
pages 110-118
(page 117)
... The revisionists sent me an article by a Frenchman named Robert
Faurisson, which claimed that Rudolf Hoess, one of the commandants of
Auschwitz, had been tortured by the British into confessing to a fantastic
and unbelievable number of murders. RI declare herewith under oath that in
the years 1941 to 1943, during my tenure in office as commandant of
Auschwitz Concentration Camp, 2 million Jews were put to death by gassing
and 1/2 million by other means.S This statement, specially mounted and
reproduced, is an important exhibit at the Holocaust Memorial.
I then got in touch with Lipstadt and Browning for their responses, which
were surprising: RHoess was always a very weak and confused witness,S said
Browning, who has been an expert witness at trials involving Auschwitz.
RThe revisionists use him all the time for this reason, in order to try and
discredit the memory of Auschwitz as a whole.S And Professor Lipstadt
directed me to page 188 of her book, which is quite a page. It says that
the stories about the Nazis making Jews into soap are entirely untrue, and
it also says that while the memorial stone at Auschwitz itself lists the
number of victims -- Jews and non-Jews -- at 4 million, the truer figure is
somewhere between 1.5 and 2 million. Since Hoess was the commandant of the
place for only part of its existence, this means that -- according to the
counter-revisionists -- an important piece of evidence in the Holocaust
Memorial is not reliable. A vertiginous sensation if you like.
RItUs the same with the soap story,S said Lipstadt. RI get protests from
survivors, saying that I shouldnUt admit itUs not true, because it gives
ammunition to the enemy. But IUm only interested in getting at the truth.S
An old-fashioned concept.
--
Too old fashioned, I'm afraid, for someone as thoroughly modern as Ms.
Lipstadt. Be that as it may, however, my reading of this piece is that
Browning is admitting that the Hoess statements are weak, implying there is
something better. Lipstadt seems basically to be lumping the Hoess
statement in with the "human soap" stories as being "not true." What am I
missing here?
--
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Institute for Historical Review/PO Box 2739/Newport Beach, CA 92659
The Journal of Historical Review, 6 times/year, $40
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, $10.00 + $1.00 shipping
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Article: 14407 of alt.revisionism
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Gassings in the Old Reich
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 1994 21:35:24 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 23
Message-ID:
References: <319dts$s3c@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan.kaiwan.com
In article <319dts$s3c@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
wrote:
> Raven keeps repeating the lie that Holocaust historians do not
> claim any more that gassing took place in Germany proper (or
> the "old Reich") during WW2.
>
> In 1992, the German "Institute for Contemporary History",
> published a summary about the extent of gassing in the different
> camps. While it is true that most of it took place in the death
> camps the SS built in Nazi-occupied Poland, the summary provides a
> list of camps inside the "old Reich" in which gassing took place.
So are you saying that Martin Broszat, who back in 1960 made the statement
that there were no gassings in the Old Reich, was not a director of the
Institute for Contemporary History, or that he was not a historian?
--
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Institute for Historical Review/PO Box 2739/Newport Beach, CA 92659
The Journal of Historical Review, 6 times/year, $40
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, $10.00 + $1.00 shipping
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Article: 14409 of alt.revisionism
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz myths and facts
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 1994 21:38:48 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 24
Message-ID:
References: <317svt$bp2@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan.kaiwan.com
In article <317svt$bp2@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
wrote:
>
> I find it unbelievable that "revisionists" still quote Leuchter's
> report, which is so horribly stupid. The "report" is so
> ridiculous that even "revisionsts" have contradicted it many times
> themselves.
Really? Can you provide examples of the many times it has been contradicted
by revisionists?
> Really, it's time for something new. It is boring to see this
> tired old nonsense that Gannon posted here a zillion times.
So it is not okay for revisionists to post this, but it is okay for
exterminationists to post and repost their tired, off-point screeds?
--
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Institute for Historical Review/PO Box 2739/Newport Beach, CA 92659
The Journal of Historical Review, 6 times/year, $40
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, $10.00 + $1.00 shipping
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Article: 14410 of alt.revisionism
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz myths and facts
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 1994 21:41:17 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 32
Message-ID:
References: <582QBVKF@gwdu03.gwdg.de>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan.kaiwan.com
In article <582QBVKF@gwdu03.gwdg.de>, uroessl1@gwdu03.gwdg.de (Uwe
Roessler) wrote:
> How it works:
>
> greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:
>
> >Auschwitz: myths and facts
>
> >by Mark Weber
>
> >Nearly everyone has heard of Auschwitz, the German concentration camp where
> >great numbers of Jews and others were reportedly exterminated in gas
> >chambers during the Second World War.
>
> >Auschwitz is widely regarded as the most terrible Nazi extermination
> >center. This image, however, cannot be reconciled with the facts.
>
> So, we come to understand, Weber found out, there existed Nazi
> extermination centers worse than Auschwitz.
> I'm interested to hear, how Weber tries to prove this claim.
There seems to be a language problem here. If you understand English and
read the entire post, I think you will grasp the point Mr. Weber is trying
to make, whether or not you agree with it.
--
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Institute for Historical Review/PO Box 2739/Newport Beach, CA 92659
The Journal of Historical Review, 6 times/year, $40
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, $10.00 + $1.00 shipping
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Article: 14411 of alt.revisionism
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Let's hear both sides
Date: 28 Jul 1994 23:10:52 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <319dts$s3c@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu
X-ORIGINAL-NEWSGROUPS: alt.revisionism
Raven keeps repeating the lie that Holocaust historians do not
claim any more that gassing took place in Germany proper (or
the "old Reich") during WW2.
In 1992, the German "Institute for Contemporary History",
published a summary about the extent of gassing in the different
camps. While it is true that most of it took place in the death
camps the SS built in Nazi-occupied Poland, the summary provides a
list of camps inside the "old Reich" in which gassing took place.
There were also, of course, the "Euthanasia" institutions, in which
mentally retarded and insane Germans were killed, many of them
by gas. BTW, many of those who participated in the "Euthanasia"
murders later joined the staff of the "Operation Reinhard" camps
(Treblinka, Belzec, and Sobibor).
-Danny Keren.
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Article: 14412 of alt.revisionism
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From: golux@mcs.com (The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Real Lesson of the Holocaust
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 1994 23:54:32 -0600
Organization: MCSNet Services
Lines: 31
Message-ID:
References: <30vcvu$6h5@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> <3164ap$k80@access2.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: golux.pr.mcs.net
In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross
Vicksell) wrote:
> Both Greg Raven and I have pointed out that none of the $90000 poor abused
> Mel Mermelstein got from the IHR had anything to do with the $50000
> "reward", and if you don't believe us, it was also acknowledged in the the
> trailer of the made-for-TV movie "Never Forget", which starred Leonard
> Nimoy as Marvelous Mel.
OK, so what was the $90K payoff for? Because the IHR thought Mel was a
nice guy and deserved all that money?
I believe what you are referring to as "none of the [money]...had anything
to do with the...'reward'" has something to do with the fact noted by Greg
Raven that the IHR never admitted Mel was entitled to the "reward."
To which I say, so what? Millions of dollars in litigation settlements are
paid out every year, and in virtually all settlement, the paying defendant
denies, as part of the settlement, that it is liable for whatever was
alleged against it. Does that mean that the defendant wasn't liable?
Hardly.
The IHR had to pay Mel $90K, in part because they offered a $50K "reward"
and then reneged on their offer. Spin it any way you want, the payoff
wouldn't have happened if not for the offered "reward."
--
D. J. Schaeffer | The Todal looks like a blob of glup.
golux@mcs.com | It makes a sound like rabbits screaming,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ and smells of old, unopened rooms.
-- Thurber, _The 13 Clocks_
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Article: 14413 of alt.revisionism
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Reminder for Mr. Raven: Unfinished Business
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 1994 21:44:38 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 25
Message-ID:
References: <1994Jul27.160553.5947@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan.kaiwan.com
In article <1994Jul27.160553.5947@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>,
kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay) wrote:
> Mr. Raven has not yet responded to this message, which we posted
> here on the 4th. of May. We ask him to do so now:
>
> Archive/File: holocaust/usa/ihr raven.002
> Last-Modified: 1994/05/05
> Date: Wed, 4 May 1994 18:33:36 GMT
> Lines: 631
>
> On April 20th, Greg Raven posted a challenge. He asserted, without
> evidence, that the Holocaust never happened - and he challenged those
> of us who disagree to _prove_otherwise_!
I never asserted that the Holocaust never happened. However, I apologize
for not having had time until recently to respond to the long posts you and
others directed my way. I will be getting to them asap.
--
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Institute for Historical Review/PO Box 2739/Newport Beach, CA 92659
The Journal of Historical Review, 6 times/year, $40
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, $10.00 + $1.00 shipping
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Article: 14414 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access3.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Raven's methodology
Date: 29 Jul 1994 00:53:42 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 91
Message-ID: <31a20m$2cl@access3.digex.net>
References: <315k1n$88k@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access3.digex.net
In article ,
Greg Raven wrote:
>In article <315k1n$88k@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
>wrote:
>
>> (text deleted)
>> Raven mentions documents about the extermination of the Jews. Such
>> documents exist, but Raven and his fellow "scholars" claim they
>> are all forgeries. Raven, BTW, refuses to specify what his education
>> is and whether he has any credentials or reputation as a historian.
>
>I do not claim that all documents are forgeries.
No, merely all documents whose meaning is too plain to twist and
pretend they mean something else. This seems to be a hallmark of IHR
methodology.
Is the letter from Just to Rauff a forgery? Yes or no. If yes,
please supply evidence. Friedrich Berg has called it a forgery but has
refused to provide any evidence.
Is the Franke-Gricksch report a forgery? Yes or no. If yes, please
supply evidence. Friedrich Berg has called this a fabrication, but has
refused to provide any evidence.
Is the report of 23rd June 1943, listing the total cremation capacity
of Auschwitz as 4,756 bodies per 24-hour day, a forgery? Yes or no. If
yes, please supply evidence. (Please do not digress into a discussion of
whether this number was really possible, or whether or not this proves
anything. For right now I am only interested in knowing if the document
is, in your view, a forgery or an authentic Nazi document.)
>> Raven has a problem - all evidence, be it eyewitness testimonies
>> or documents, proves that he is wrong. Unable to cast doubt on
>> this evidence, he turns to what is called in the realm of
>> mathematics "abstract nonsense", that is, meaningless, vague
>> claims which make no sense and which are void of any logical
>> content.
>
>Pretty sweeping comment from someone who apparently thinks that a TESTIMONY
>about an EXPERIMENTAL gassing of RUSSIAN POW is proof that the Nazis had a
>plan to exterminate Jews!
Mr. Raven seems to have a very short term memory. We had discussed
this issue in email, and I sent him the following:
From mstein@access2.digex.net Mon Jun 6 11:24:33 1994
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 1994 11:24:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Michael P. Stein"
Subject: Re: Message test
To: Greg Raven
In-Reply-To: <199406061336.GAA17967@kaiwan.kaiwan.com>
Message-ID:
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: RO
X-Status:
[...]
> Does he really think that a citation that refers to a test gassing of
> Russion POW is proof of a Nazi plan or policy to murder Jews in
> homicidal gas chambers?
Not in and of itself. However, it establishes that gas chambers
existed. Remember, one must prove *all* the elements of the crime.
Nevertheless, I think you're missing the point. It was rebuttal. It
goes to the chronology of conducting experiments, formulating a plan, and
carrying it out, and addresses a distorted reference you made to Pressac.
You will see this more clearly in the long article which addresses your
post.
The reason for the reference to the gassing of the Russian POWs was
carefully explained to Mr. Raven. Yet he repeats his false assertion
about what Dr. Keren thinks, despite the fact that he has reason to know
it is false. What this says about Mr. Raven's intellect or integrity I
leave for the reader to judge. Ignoring inconvenient evidence and
arguments is another hallmark of "revisionist scholarship."
Again, the reference to Russian POWs is evidence of a Nazi homicidal
gas chamber. Does Mr. Raven agree that this testimony is genuine and
correct, and the existence of a Nazi homicidal gas chamber is now
established?
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
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Article: 14415 of alt.revisionism
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From: golux@mcs.com (The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz myths and facts
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 1994 00:06:21 -0600
Organization: MCSNet Services
Lines: 26
Message-ID:
References: <317svt$bp2@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: golux.pr.mcs.net
In article <317svt$bp2@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
wrote:
>
> I find it unbelievable that "revisionists" still quote Leuchter's
> report, which is so horribly stupid. The "report" is so
> ridiculous that even "revisionsts" have contradicted it many times
> themselves.
What's particularly amusing is the portrayal of Leuchter as "America's
leading gas chamber expert" and a "Boston engineer." Do they just never
bother to update their screeds? DO they actually think that if they repeat
old, discredited misinformation enough times, people will forget that it's
bogus?
> Really, it's time for something new. It is boring to see this
> tired old nonsense that Gannon posted here a zillion times.
I agree. C'mon, Greg, Ross: time for some new material. You're losing
your audience.
--
D. J. Schaeffer | The Todal looks like a blob of glup.
golux@mcs.com | It makes a sound like rabbits screaming,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ and smells of old, unopened rooms.
-- Thurber, _The 13 Clocks_
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Article: 14419 of alt.revisionism
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From: golux@mcs.com (The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Let's hear both sides
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 1994 00:12:30 -0600
Organization: MCSNet Services
Lines: 25
Message-ID:
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: golux.pr.mcs.net
In article , greg.ihr@kaiwan.com
(Greg Raven) wrote:
> THE HOLOCAUST: Let's Hear Both Sides
>
> By Mark Weber
>
> Just about everyone has heard that the Germans killed some six million Jews
> in Europe during the Second World War. American television, motion
> pictures, newspapers and magazines hammer away on this theme. In
> Washington, DC, an enormous official Holocaust Museum is being built.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Hey, Greg, how long has the Holocause Memorial Museum been completed and
open to the public?
Think it's been long enough that you ought to update your material? Truck
in some new trash to replace the old stuff (which is getting to be mighty
rank)?
--
D. J. Schaeffer | The Todal looks like a blob of glup.
golux@mcs.com | It makes a sound like rabbits screaming,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ and smells of old, unopened rooms.
-- Thurber, _The 13 Clocks_
From oneb!kmcvay Sat Jul 30 16:54:46 PDT 1994
Article: 14420 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!kmcvay
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Subject: Re: Raven's Myopia
References:
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Message-ID: <1994Jul30.234825.1260@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 94 23:48:25 GMT
In article greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:
>Perhaps you missed the beginning of my posts here. I was asking for the
>best evidence of a Nazi policy or plan of extermination of Jews in gas
>chambers. Russian POW (short for "prisoners of war," just as "rpm" is short
>for "revolutions per minute"). This is very simple.
Perhaps you missed our response to your post here. I can understand
that, as we've only published it here four (or more) times, and only
mailed it to you once.
Myopia. Very simple.
--
"Everything I do is done with the full knowledge of the Fuehrer."
(Himmler, Heinrich. See Jochen von Lang, "Der Adjutant: Karl Wolff,"
Munich: Herbig, 1985, pp . 140ff)
From oneb!kmcvay Sat Jul 30 16:56:45 PDT 1994
Article: 14421 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!kmcvay
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Subject: Re: Raven's myopia (Long, Repost)
Summary: In the hope that Mr. Raven's May 4th. Myopia has cleared
up, I repost our joint response to his original post, and
ask that he now deal with it.
References: <317rft$ath@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Message-ID: <1994Jul30.235403.1326@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 94 23:54:03 GMT
In article greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:
>Apparently you either have not read or have not understood my "silly
>questions." I have never said that there is only one piece of evidence that
Apparently you either have not read or have not understood our
response to your silly question. It was published here, in this
newsgroup, at least four times. It was also mailed to you at least
once.
>of evidence that proves these mass gassings. I am asking for the best
>example of such evidence that we may look at it together. We will either
>agree that it does provide proof, that it does not provide proof, or we
>will agree to disagree. Then we go on to the next piece of the mauntain of
>evidence.
We are asking for you to deal with our response.
>Do you have any good evidence, and if so, please chose what you consider to
>be your best piece of this evidence and let's look at it together.
Do you have any good reason, other than May 4th. Myopia, for not
dealing with that response, Mr. Raven? If not, let's look at it
together:
Archive/File: holocaust/usa/ihr raven.002
Last-Modified: 1994/05/05
From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie R. McCarthy)
Subject: A response to Greg Raven's request
Message-ID: <1994May4.183336.1331@hobbes.kzoo.edu>
Date: Wed, 4 May 1994 18:33:36 GMT
Lines: 631
On April 20th, Greg Raven posted a challenge. He asserted, without
evidence, that the Holocaust never happened - and he challenged those
of us who disagree to _prove_otherwise_!
Things are certainly getting interesting, now that the Institute for
Historical Review has an important member on the net. Perhaps, soon, the
Flat-Earth Society will enter into sci.geology discussions and ask the
participants to "provide evidence" that the planet is a sphere. Then, the
editorial board of the National Enquirer will ask the readers of rec.music
to "provide evidence" that Elvis is not being held in suspended animation
at the North Pole by space aliens.
But preposterous challenges like those could be simply cross-posted to
alt.usenet.kooks and laughed off. Sadly, the equally-preposterous
claims of Greg Raven and his compatriots cannot. They are a serious
matter, and must be addressed seriously.
Greg Raven wrote:
>...I would like to get this
>discussion back on track, at least as far as Holocaust revisionism is
>concerned..... To this end, I would like to make a few simple statements
>concerning my position, and then ask for a fairly specific response, in
>order to prevent a splintering of discussions and energies.
We welcome focus. Education is our goal, and confusion hinders education.
>First, I do not deny the Holocaust happened. Let me repeat that. I do not
>deny the Holocaust happened. For the purposes of this discussion, I am
>using a fairly generic definition of the word "Holocaust," which is "the
>murder of six million Jews as a central act of state by the Nazis during
>the Second World War, many in gas chambers." If anyone has a problem with
>this definition, I invite you to provide your version.
>
>Second, here is what Holocaust revisionists REALLY say: The Jews of Europe
>suffered a great tragedy before and during the Second World War. Many were
>mistreated, and many died under horrific conditions. However, a) there is
>no evidence that the Nazis had a plan or policy of exterminating the Jews,
>b) there is no evidence that there were homicidal gas chambers for murder
>Jews, and c) the figure of six million Jewish victims is an exaggeration.
>
>I imagine that some of you will take exception to at least some of these
>statements. What I ask from those who do is simply this: Provide me with
>what you think is the one or two best pieces of evidence that the Nazis had
>a plan to exterminate millions of Jews in homicidal gas chambers. Once you
>provide what you think is the best evidence, I will respond.
>
>You will note that I do not want long collages consisting of snippets of
>speeches, fragments of documents, etc. I want one or two pieces of
>evidence. I will not consider personal attacks, discussions of race,
>discussions about the meta-meaning of Holocaust "denial," or other
>non-substantive, off-topic posts to address the issue at hand. I look
>forward to hearing from all who have something to say.
>
>P.S. I do not have a lot of time to put into this discussion, but I will do
>the best I can. I hope you understand, and try not to get too surly with me
>if I skip a day or two while I attempt to meet my many deadlines.
>
>Greg Raven
>greg.ihr@kaiwan.com
Point one:
It is not for _Raven_ to be challenging _us_.
No reputable historian believes the claims in his fourth paragraph - that
much quickly becomes clear to anyone taking the time to research the
matter. The Holocaust, the deliberate murder of about six million Jews
along with about five million others, is a historical fact, as certain and
undeniable as World War II itself.
Suppose a competent adult said to you "I do not believe that the United
States ever landed a person on the moon - please present your best
evidence that they did." Where to begin? You would have to begin with
the question that comes to mind, which is "why does this person contradict
every authority on the subject?" We need more information from Mr. Raven.
We need to know why he doubts the thousands of testimonials, the physical
evidence still present half a century later, the confessions, the memos,
the letters, the recordings - the tons upon tons of evidence that
inevitably collects after any historical calamity of such a scale. It is
there, it is irrefutable, why on earth does he doubt its veracity?
Now, of course, we are not naive. We have seen enough of the IHR's
material to guess much of what he will say on any given topic.
But the burden of proof is _his_. Reality does not need to be pinned down
- it's available, in as much detail as desired, to anyone with the time to
visit a library. Mr. Raven's claims, however, are at this point
impossibly, and perhaps deliberately, vague.
Therefore, we pose the question as it should be. What we ask from him
(or anyone who denies the Holocaust) is simply this: provide us with what
he thinks are the one or two best pieces of evidence that the Nazis did
_not_ exterminate millions of people in homicidal gas chambers. Once he
provides what he thinks is the best evidence, we will respond.
For the last two years, repeatedly, Jamie McCarthy has been asking this
question of Dan Gannon, both on Usenet and on Gannon's personal BBS. He
has yet to receive an answer. We hope Mr. Raven will better assist us.
Point two:
In his efforts to whitewash Holocaust-denial, Mr. Raven has posted a
glaring contradiction, perhaps without even noticing that he's done so.
His third paragraph defines "Holocaust" as "the murder of six million Jews
as a central act of state by the Nazis during the Second World War, many
in gas chambers." (This definition will suffice, but we will concern
ourselves with _all_ the victims of the Nazi mass murderers - they took
the lives of about five million non-Jews, as well.) And he writes, twice,
"I do not deny the Holocaust happened."
Then, in his fourth paragraph, he denies the Holocaust happened. He writes
that "there is no evidence that the Nazis had a plan or policy of
exterminating the Jews." He writes that "there is no evidence that there
were homicidal gas chambers for murder [sic] Jews." And he writes that
"the figure of six million Jewish victims is an exaggeration."
One wonders how he will reconcile these two opposing viewpoints.
We suspect that he would like us to believe that he does not deny the
Holocaust - rather, that he merely has an "open mind" on the subject,
and is simply waiting to see sufficient evidence either way.
Of course, that would fool no one. The readers of alt.revisionism have
seen Mr. Raven's name on enough articles from the IHR to know what his
beliefs are. They've read comments from him on the GEnie network saying
that Hitler was a "great man, the best thing that could have happened to
Germany." His mind is clearly made up.
What should we think if we encountered someone who claimed: "Based on
intense studies for the last twenty years, I do not believe that the
United States ever landed a person on the moon - but my mind is open on
the subject." We would conclude, of course: that person is not merely
wrong, that person is also deliberately misrepresenting his or her
beliefs, for some reason.
Point three:
We understand Raven's plea that he does not have "a lot of time to put into
this discussion." We know where he's coming from. We have full-time
occupations that demand most of our schedule. All of our efforts to
combat Holocaust-denial are in our spare time; none of us has been paid a
dime for doing it.
Greg Raven, on the other hand, is an editor at the Institute for Historical
Review, the largest Holocaust-denial-promoting organization in the world.
His email address is "greg.ihr". He are unquestionably a professional at
this - he does it for a living. We wonder how much he gets paid.
And, we hope he won't use his other commitments as an excuse to back out of
this discussion.
Point four:
As we say - this is a serious matter, and must be dealt with seriously.
We know the Holocaust happened; it's undeniable. "How do we know?" is a
valid question - it's more of an epistemological than a historical
question, but it's valid nonetheless. "How do we know that Washington was
the first President of the United States?" is an equally valid question.
We know because we have _tremendous_ amounts of evidence telling us so.
Greg Raven has, in just a few weeks' time on Usenet, already exhibited
a tendency to downplay the amount of evidence. This is one of the basic
tricks of Holocaust-deniers: change the word "tremendous" above to
"not much," and hope no one will notice. Then, attack the "not much."
For example, he wrote (through Ross Vicksell): "The Germans were quite
good about documenting everything else (we know almost to the penny how
much they spent on dog kennels, for example), yet nothing about an
extermination program." This is a lie: we know a _tremendous_ amount
about the details of the various extermination programs.
When presented with a list of thirty-five books of documentation, Greg's
response was "Obviously, I cannot respond to each document contained in
all these books you mention. Please select one document...."
No, Mr. Raven is right - he _can't_ respond to each document. There is
simply too much evidence. It's overwhelming, it's too much for even
specialized historians to take it all in. The simple fact is, we know too
much about that period of history for him or anyone else to deny it.
We want to stress this fact. We will provide documents to examine, and we
will even tell Mr. Raven in which order he is to examine them. But we
could spend years doing it and barely scratch the surface. He has asked
us twice now to pick a single solitary document - to squabble over a tide
pool, and ignore the vast ocean.
Suppose we gave him a memo from Hitler detailing a plan to exterminate
millions of Jews, and suppose he proved conclusively that it was a
forgery. What would he have proved? Nothing. Nothing at all.
D.J. Schaeffer anticipated this possibility on April 21st, when he
addressed Mr. Raven, saying:
> I suspect that what you want is the opportunity to knock down individual
> documents, and declare a revisionist "victory" by virtue of having
> eliminated the "best evidence." As Barry Shein has pointed out here,
> however, unless you can eliminate every eyewitness testimony, every
> document, every piece of evidence, then you have not disproved the
> Holocaust.
It's worth noting that Schaeffer also pointed out Raven's contradiction,
our point two above. And yet Raven dismissed Schaeffer's entire article
as "meaningless." It is not, of course, meaningless - it's true, and it's
meaningful. It's just that Mr. Raven does not like the implications.
Mr. Raven wants to channel "tremendous" into a few documents' worth of "not
much," and then deal only with those documents. He expects that he'll be
able to quibble about the translations of a few words, ask a few questions
about authenticity, and then declare that he's cast doubt on all of them,
and that, Q.E.D., the "best evidence" for the Holocaust is untrustworthy.
Of course, we all know that won't wash. Anyone could disprove anything
this way. Let's try an example, shall we? We'll ask for one or two
pieces of "best evidence" that Americans landed on the moon. Let's say
we're handed a videotape of the event and testimony from Neil Armstrong
himself. We question the authenticity of the tape (black and white
pictures are easily forged, just look at the film _2001_) and the
qualifications of the witness (any grounds will do). Instantly, we've cast
doubt upon the "best evidence" for the moon landing - and if this is the
_best_ evidence, why all the rest of it must be even _less_ trustworthy!
(It is, incidentally, perfectly acceptable for _us_ to ask _Raven_ for one
or two pieces of evidence. His case consists solely of trying to "knock
holes" in the existing body of research. The IHR's numerous claims are,
for the most part, totally independent of one another - they are attacks
upon what is known, but they do not join together into a cohesive theory
of what _did_ happen to those eleven million people in the early 1940s.
The case of the Holocaust-deniers is nothing but artillery shells fired at
the establishment, and there's nothing wrong with us asking them to name
which of those shells they find most effective. But they won't want to
pick any one of them, because, upon examination, they all turn out to be
made of marshmallows, and their only viable strategy is to keep firing
more and more of them.)
We have not gone into detail about the moon landing, whereas Mr. Raven and
his colleagues have nothing _but_ details. That is the only difference
between our example and the technique used by Holocaust-deniers.
We would hope that any reasonable observer, and indeed most unreasonable
ones, would be too smart to fall for such a simple trick, and that there
would be no need to waste time with answers to such sophistry.
Unfortunately, that is exactly what Hitler's "Big Lie" technique counted
on - repeat a charge loud enough and often enough, hoping that any lack of
response will lead people to conclude that it must therefore be true. It
is for this reason, and this reason alone, that we respond to Greg Raven
and his ilk.
So, we will indeed give him a document which we feel fairly represents the
massive collection of conclusive evidence that the Holocaust happened. And
then we will give him another. And another, and another - because they
are all evidence: statements from Hoess and Himmler and Boeck and Broad
and Kremer and Glowakci and others involved in the process, eyewitness
accounts from Wiesenthal and Kogon and Wiesel and Buki and the Paisikovics
and Mueller and Dragon and Rosenblum and Nyizli and Silberberg and
Mandelbaum and the thousands upon tens of thousands of relatively-unknown
others, plans for the chambers, plans for the vehicles, orders for the
equipment, inventories of the Krematoria, letters to the government,
letters from the government, letters between government officials,
memorandums, reports, diagrams, charts, speeches, statistics, diaries...
We are quite sure that he will attempt to explain away as many of these as
he can. But this is one of his main errors: while one or two die throws
cannot conclusively prove that the dice are loaded, one hundred thousand
consecutive throws of 7 cannot possibly be anything but. And each time he
makes this error, or commits some other fallacy, or makes another
unsubstantiated assertion, or contradicts himself, we will be there to
point it out.
We encourage him to waste as much time as he likes, but we'll warn him:
there is too much evidence, and we've seen all his tricks. He can't win.
Following are documents that demonstrate that, in his words, "the Nazis had
a plan to exterminate millions of Jews in homicidal gas chambers." Please
note that several of them refer instead to the plan actually being carried
out, a technical quibble which we hope Mr. Raven will forgive.
We ask Mr. Raven to please apply himself first to document one. When he
has finished attempting to convince his audience that document one does
not suit his needs, then he may proceed on to document two, and so on
until he reaches the end of the list. We would hope that Mr. Raven would
limit his answers to one document per posted article, to facilitate any
further discussion that may take place, and that he would enumerate his
points, as we have done here. As we say - we welcome focus.
Document one:
We begin with the document that was presented to the Nazi Ernst Zuendel on
the "60 Minutes" television show. It is a speech delivered by Heinrich
Himmler. The speech was both transcribed and recorded; we have the
recording in the national archives in Washington, D.C., and we have
Himmler's notes for the speech. Indeed, most Holocaust-deniers accept
this document as valid (with the notable exception of our own Milton
"Hermann" Kleim).
The speech is quite famous and its text may be found in many sources,
for example in the book _Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg
Military Tribunals_, published by the U.S. Government Printing Office,
1949-1953.
Speeches by Reichsfuehrer-SS Himmler before senior SS officers in Poznan.
October 4 and 6, 1943.
I am referring here to the evacuation of the Jews, the elimination
of the Jewish people. This is one of the things that is easily said:
"The Jewish people are going to be exterminated," that's what every
party member says, "sure, it's in our program, elimination of the
Jews, extermination - it'll be done." And then they all come along,
the 80 million worthy Germans, and each one has his one decent Jew.
Of course, the others are swine, but this one, he is a first-rate
Jew. Of all those who talk like this, not one has seen it happen,
not one has had to go through with it. Most of you men know what
it is like to see 100 corpses side by side, or 500, or 1000. To have
stood fast through this and - except for cases of human weakness - to
have stayed decent, that has made us hard.
I ask of you that what I say in this circle you really only hear and
never speak about. We come to the question: how is it with the women
and children? I have resolved even here on a completely clear
solution. That is to say, I do not consider myself justified in
eradicating the men - so to speak killing or ordering them killed
- and allowing the children to grow up and avenge our sons and
grandsons. The difficult decision has to be taken, to cause this
race to disappear from the earth.
Document two:
>From the book _Hitler and the Final Solution_ by G. Fleming, University of
California Press, 1984, p. 142.
Report entitled "Resettlement of Jews" written by SS-Sturmbannfuehrer
Gricksch for SS-Col. von Herff and Reichsfuehrer-SS Himmler, after
inspection of the Auschwitz camp on May 14-16, 1943.
The unfit go to cellars in a large house which are entered from
outside. They go down five or six steps into a fairly long,
well-constructed and well-ventilated cellar area, which is lined with
benches to the left and right. It is brightly lit, and the benches
are numbered. The prisoners are told that they are to be cleansed
and disinfected for their new assignments. They must therefore
completely undress to be bathed. To avoid panic and to prevent
disturbances of any kind, they are instructed to arrange their
clothing neatly under their respective numbers, so that they will
be able to find their things again after their bath. Everything
proceeds in a perfectly orderly fashion. Then they pass through
a small corridor and enter a large cellar room which resembles a
shower bath. In this room are three large pillars, into which
certain materials can be lowered from outside the cellar room. When
three- to four-hundred people have been herded into this room, the
doors are shut, and containers filled with the substances are dropped
down into the pillars. As soon as the containers touch the base
of the pillars, they release particular substances that put the
people to sleep in one minute. A few minutes later, the door opens on
the other side, where the elevator is located.... Then the corpses
are loaded into elevators and brought up to the first floor, where
ten large crematoria are located. (Because fresh corpses burn
particularly well, only 50-100 lbs. of coke are needed for the whole
process.) The job itself is performed by Jewish prisoners, who never
step outside this camp again.
Document three:
>From the book _The Goebbels Diaries 1942-1943_, edited by L.P. Lochner,
Doubleday & Co., 1948, p. 86.
Goebbels' diary, February 14, 1942.
World Jewry will suffer a great catastrophe at the same time as
Bolshevism. The Fuehrer once more expressed his determination to
clean up the Jews in Europe pitilessly. There must be no squeamish
sentimentalism about it. The Jews have deserved the catastrophe that
has now overtaken them. Their destruction will now go hand in hand
with the destruction of our enemies. We must hasten this process
with cold ruthlessness.
March 26, 1942.
Beginning with Lublin, the Jews in the general government [Poland] are
now being evacuated eastward. The procedure is a pretty barbaric one
and not to be described here more definitely. Not much will remain
of the Jews. On the whole it can be said that about 60 per cent
of them will have to be liquidated whereas only 40 per cent can
be used for forced labor.
Document four:
Hoess' memoirs describe the gassing process clearly and unambiguously in
many places. Here is one example. The memoirs were published, among
other places, in the book _Kommandant in Auschwitz_, by Rudolf Hoess,
Deutsche Verlagsanstalt, Stuttgart, 1958. English translation _Commandant
of Auschwitz: the Autobiography of Rudolf Hoess_, World Press, Cleveland,
1959, p. 123f.
On the railroad ramp the Jews, who up till then had been under the
supervision of the state police, were taken over by a squad from the
camp. They were led by the head of the detention camp, in two
detachments, to the bunker. That was what we called the extermination
installations. The luggage stayed on the ramp, from where it was
carried to the sorting area - called Kanada - between the buildings
of the DAW [weapons factory] and the courtyard. The Jews had to
undress near the bunker. They were told that they had to go into
what were called delousing rooms. All these rooms, five in all, were
filled simultaneously. The doors were hermetically sealed, and the
contents of the cans of gas were dropped in through the holes in the
ceiling provided for this purpose.
Half an hour later the doors were opened; there were two in each
room. The corpses were removed and taken to the ditches on tip wagons
that ran on rails. Trucks carried the clothes to the sorting area.
All the work, including help in undressing, filling the bunker,
emptying the bunker, burying the corpses, as well as digging and
filling up the mass graves, was done by a special detail of Jews who
were housed separately and who, in accordance with Eichmann's
instructions, were also exterminated after each big operation.
Document five:
Hoess not only wrote many pages detailing the extermination effort, he
testified about it under oath. This segment of that testimony is quoted
in _Documents on Nazism, 1919-1945_, edited by Jeremy Noakes and G.
Pridham, Viking Press, New York, 1974, pp. 490-1.
The 'final solution' of the Jewish question meant the complete
extermination of all Jews in Europe. I was ordered to establish
extermination facilities at Auschwitz in June 1942. At that time,
there were already in the Generalgouvernement [the area of Poland not
incorporated into Germany or Russia] three other extermination camps
- Belzec, Treblinka, and Wolzek. These camps were under the command
of the task forces of the Security Police and SD. I visited
Treblinka to find out how they carried out their extermination. The
Camp Commandant at Treblinka told me that he had liquidated 80,000 in
the course of six months. He was principally concerned with
liquidating all the Jews from the Warsaw ghetto. He used monoxide
gas and I did not think that his methods were very efficient. So
when I set up the extermination building at Auschwitz, I used Cyclon
B, which was a crystallized prussic acid which we dropped into the
death chamber from a small opening. It took from three to fifteen
minutes to kill the people in the death chamber, depending upon
climatic conditions. We knew when the people were dead because their
screaming stopped. We usually waited about half an hour before we
opened the doors and removed the bodies. After the bodies were
removed our special squads took off the rings and extracted the gold
from the teeth of the corpses.
Another improvement on Treblinka that we made was building our gas
chambers to accomodate 2000 people at a time, whereas at Treblinka
their ten gas chambers only accomodated 200 people each. The way we
selected our victims was as follows: we had two SS doctors on duty at
Auschwitz to examine the incoming transports of prisoners. The
prisoners would be marched past one of the doctors who would make
spot decisions as they walked by. Those who were fit to work were
sent into the camp. Others were sent immediately to the
extermination plants. Children of tender years were invariably
exterminated since by reason of their youth they were unable to work.
Still another improvement made on Treblinka was that at Treblinka the
victims almost always knew that they were about to be exterminated
whereas at Auschwitz we endeavoured to fool the victims into thinking
that they were to go through a delousing process. Of course, they
often realized our true intentions and owing to that we sometimes had
riots and difficulties. Very often women would hide their children
under the clothes but of course when we found them we would send the
children in to be exterminated. We were required to carry out these
exterminations in secrecy but of course the foul and nauseating
stench from the continuous burning of bodies permeated the entire
area and all the people living in the surrounding communities knew
that exterminations were going on at Auschwitz.
Document six:
>From the book _The Good Old Days_, by Ernst Klee, W. Dressen, and V. Riess,
The Free Press, NY, 1988, p. 68.
Ereignismlrdung UdSSR No. 128 [Operational Situation Report from the USSR
No. 128], November 3, 1941.
In Kiev, difficulties that arose during the execution of a major
action of this type - particularly with regard to registration - were
overcome by the use of posters annoncing that all Jews were to report
for resettlement. Although it was initially thought that the action
would only involve 5,000 to 6,000 Jews, more than 30,000 Jews
reported, who as a result of extremely efficient organization still
believed they were going to be resettled right up untill the time
they were executed.
Despite that fact that up to now a total of some 75,000 Jews have been
liquidated in this way, it has nevertheless become apparent that this
method will not provide a solution to the Jewish problem.
Document seven:
>From the book _The Final Solution: The Attempt to Exterminate the Jews of
Europe, 1939-1945_, by G. Reitlinger and T. Yosellof, South Brunswick,
1968.
Letter from SS Major-General Stahlecker to SS General Heydrich,
January 31, 1942.
The complete removal of Jewry from the eastern territories has been
substantially attained, with the exception of white Russia, as a
result of the execution up to the present time of 229,052 Jews.
Document eight:
>From the book _Trente-quatre mois dans les camps de concentration_
(Thirty-four months in the concentration camps), by Dr. Andre' Lettich,
L'Union Cooperative, Tours, 1946. Translation appears in _Nazi Mass
Murder_, by Eugen Kogon, H. Langbein, and A. Rueckerl,
Yale University Press, New Haven and London, 1993, pp. 150-151.
Up to the end of January 1943 there were no crematory ovens at
Birkenau. In the middle of a little birch wood, about two
kilometers from the camp, was a peaceful-looking cottage in which
a Polish family, expelled or murdered, had lived. For a long time
this cottage had been used as a gas chamber.
More than five hundred meters from it were two barracks: the men
were grouped on one side, the women on the other. Very politely,
very amiably, a little speech was made to them. "You've arrived
after a trip; you're dirty; you're going to have a bath. Undress
quickly!" Towels and soap were distributed, and then the brutes
revealed themselves in their true colors: with heavy blows this
human herd, these men and women, were driven naked, winter or
summer, across the hundred or so meters that separated them from
the "shower room." Above the entrance door was written "Brausebad"
[showers]. Shower heads could even be seen on the ceiling; they
were cemented in, but water never flowed from them.
These poor innocents were piled up, packed against one another,
and it was then that panic began: they finally understood what
fate awaited them. But blows with clubs and revolver shots quickly
calmed things down, and all finally penetrated this mortal chamber.
The doors were closed and, ten minutes later, the temperature had
risen high enough for the hydrocyanic acid to volatize--it was with
hydrocyanic acid that the condemned were gassed. It was Zyklon B,
diatomite impregnated with a 20 percent solution of hydrocyanic
acid, that the German barbarians used.
Then SS-Unterschardfuehrer Moll dropped the gas through a little
window. The cries that could be heard were frightening, but after
a few moments complete silence reigned. Twenty to twenty-five
minutes later the windows and doors were opened to air the room, and
the corpses were immediately thrown into ditches, where they were
burned.
Document nine:
>From Dr. Johann Kremer's diary, published in _KL Auschwitz in den Augen
der SS_ (Auschwitz in the eyes of the SS), Auschwitz State Museum,
1973, pp. 215-217. Translation appears in _Nazi Mass Murder_, by Eugen
Kogon, H. Langbein, and A. Rueckerl, Yale University Press,
New Haven and London, 1993, pp. 149-150.
On 2 September 1942, at three o'clock in the morning, I was ordered
to take part in a gassing, and I watched it. This mass murder took
place outside the Birkenau camp, in little houses located in the
forest. The SS men called them "bunkers" in their slang. All the
SS doctors in the camp health service took part in these gassings,
each in his turn. As a doctor, my participation in these gassings,
called "special operations," consisted of standing at a spot near
the bunker, ready to intervene should my assistance be necessary.
I was taken there by car. I sat next to the driver, and behind me
was an SS hospital orderly (a noncommissioned officer), provided
with an oxygen tank so as to be able to give first aid to the SS
men taking part in the gassings in case any of them should be
victims of asphyxiation....
I followed one convoy to the bunker. The prisoners were first taken
to barracks where they undressed; from there they went, naked, to
the gas chambers. Most of the time things proceeded calmly, for the
SS men reassured the people by telling them they were going to have
a bath and be deloused. When all had been pushed into a gas
chamber, the door was closed and an SS man wearing a gas mark threw
the contents of a can of gas through an opening in the side wall.
Through this opening we could hear the cries and wailing of the
victims; we could hear their death throes.
Document ten:
>From Dr. Kremer's testimony regarding his diary, published in _The Good
Old Days_, by Ernst Klee, W. Dressen, and V. Riess, The Free Press, New
York, 1988, p. 258.
I remember I once took part in the gassing of one of these groups
of women [from the women's camp in Auschwitz]. I cannot say how big
the group was. When I got close to the bunker I saw them sitting
on the ground. They were still clothed. As they were wearing
worn-out camp clothing they were not left in the undressing hut but
made to undress in the open air. I concluded from the behavior of
these women that they had no doubt what fate awaited them, as they
begged and sobbed to the SS men to spare them their lives. However,
they were herded into the gas chambers and gassed. As an anatomist I
have seen a lot of terrible things: I had had a lot of experience
with dead bodies, and yet what I saw that day was like nothing I had
ever seen before. Still completely shocked by what I had seen I wrote
on my diary on 5 September 1942: "The most dreadful of horrors.
Hauptscharfuehrer Thilo was right when he said to me today that this
is the 'anus mundi', the anal orifice of the world". I used this
image because I could not imagine anything more disgusting and
horrific.
Again - and most importantly - we ask Mr. Raven to provide us with what he
thinks are the one or two best pieces of evidence that the Nazis did _not_
exterminate millions of people in homicidal gas chambers.
Brian Harmon (bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu)
Danny Keren (dzk@cs.brown.edu)
Jamie McCarthy (k044477@kzoo.edu)
Ken McVay (kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca)
Michael Stein (mstein@access.digex.net)
--
Jamie McCarthy Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu AppleLink: j.mccarthy
If your email is related to my job, please send it to mccarthy@lpi.com.
I speak for no one but myself.
--
"Everything I do is done with the full knowledge of the Fuehrer."
(Himmler, Heinrich. See Jochen von Lang, "Der Adjutant: Karl Wolff,"
Munich: Herbig, 1985, pp . 140ff)
From oneb!kmcvay Sat Jul 30 16:58:28 PDT 1994
Article: 14422 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!kmcvay
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Subject: Re: Raven's May 4th. Myopia
References:
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Message-ID: <1994Jul30.234441.1035@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 94 23:44:41 GMT
In article greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:
>Which one of these is, do you feel, the best evidence that the Nazis has a
>plan or policy to exterminate Jews in gas chambers?
Mr. Raven, our response you your request was published here many
times, beginning May 4th., when your present myopia seems to have
begun. Perhaps it is time for you to address that response, rather
than continue to ignore it.
If, after its being published here at least four times, and mailed
to your personal account at least once, you wish to claim that you
have not seen it yet, feel free to request it from my server.
To do that, just address an email message to
server@oneb.almanac.bc.ca, leave the subject line blank, and make
the following text the entire body of the message:
GET HOLOCAUST/USA/IHR RAVEN.002
If you find that too challenging for your busy schedule, just REPLY
to this message - my mailer will send you the file automatically (as
it will to anyone including the word MYOPIA in the Subject: field.)
Failing that, see an opthomalic physician very soon.
--
"Everything I do is done with the full knowledge of the Fuehrer."
(Himmler, Heinrich. See Jochen von Lang, "Der Adjutant: Karl Wolff,"
Munich: Herbig, 1985, pp . 140ff)
From oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news.intercon.com!news1.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail Sat Jul 30 21:59:50 PDT 1994
Article: 14424 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access3.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The deliberate starvation policy of Hitler
Date: 29 Jul 1994 01:05:45 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <31a2n9$2od@access3.digex.net>
References: <317s08$b61@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access3.digex.net
In article ,
Greg Raven wrote:
>It is very tough to conduct forensic tests on a photograph, even if it is a
>GIF.
Mr. Raven seems to think that if enough time passes after the trial
that evidence is no longer available, the crime miraculously becomes
unproven! On this logic, there is no proof Caesar was assassinated, as it
is no longer possible to conduct forensic tests.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
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Article: 14425 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Keren's methodology
In-Reply-To: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com's message of Thu, 28 Jul 1994 21:15:04 -0800
Message-ID:
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 1994 05:24:55 GMT
Lines: 16
From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
>Which one of these is, do you feel, the best evidence that the Nazis has a
>plan or policy to exterminate Jews in gas chambers?
All of them Greg. If you wish to play assinine games count me out. It
was one short page of text, I'd think even you can deal with that
though I suppose I might be wrong.
--
-Barry Shein
Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD
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Article: 14426 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access3.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Keren's methodology
Date: 29 Jul 1994 01:28:44 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <31a42c$44i@access3.digex.net>
References: <317rft$ath@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access3.digex.net
In article ,
Greg Raven wrote:
>Apparently you either have not read or have not understood my "silly
>questions."
On the contrary, Mr. Raven's silly questions are all too easily
understood.
>I have never said that there is only one piece of evidence that
>proves the Nazis had a plan or policy to exterminate the Jews in gas
>chambers.
Of course not - for if he had said that, then he would have admitted
that even if it is only one, it exists!
>We will either agree that it does provide proof, that it does not
>provide proof, or we will agree to disagree. Then we go on to the next
>piece of the mauntain of evidence.
Mr. Raven's methodology consists of insisting on taking a song one
note at a time, to see if the note conclusively proves that the song is or
is not a particular song. Since any given note is used in many songs, no
single note provides conclusive proof. Yet if the notes are played
together, the song is obvious - who would not recognize the opening of the
Beethoven Fifth Symphony on four notes? Only by refusing to let the notes
be put together into the whole song can Mr. Raven hope to keep up his
pretense that there is no proof.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
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Article: 14427 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Keren's methodology
In-Reply-To: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com's message of Thu, 28 Jul 1994 21:22:30 -0800
Message-ID:
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 1994 05:28:45 GMT
Lines: 25
From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
>Perhaps you missed the beginning of my posts here. I was asking for the
>best evidence of a Nazi policy or plan of extermination of Jews in gas
>chambers.
Hey, you can ask for 3D full-motion holograms of the Holocaust if you
like.
It doesn't mean you aren't being ridiculous.
Do you really think your churlish and transparent posturing would fool
anyone over the age of, oh, 12?
How about this: You're a moron.
Prove otherwise.
There, now we're talking on the same level.
--
-Barry Shein
Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD
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Article: 14428 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: The deliberate starvation policy of Hitler
In-Reply-To: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com's message of Wed, 27 Jul 1994 22:15:55 -0800
Message-ID:
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <2vpbnp$cpq@search01.news.aol.com> <1994Jul1
<1994Jul25.191142.4605@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
<315haq$686@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 1994 05:37:40 GMT
Lines: 42
From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
>Be that as it may, are you aware that the shrunken head has disappeared,
>and is nowhere to be found (that is, tested)?
These morbid artifacts are not really very interesting except perhaps
to indicate to what depths at least a few individuals working in the
camps had sunk. I don't think anyone is claiming that the Nazi govt
had a policy to create shrunken human heads.
You were the one who brought it up, that's why it was responded to at
all. Now you seem to be complaining. Well, hey, don't bring it up.
Perhaps it's missing because some decent person gave it a proper
burial?
>Are you aware that forensic
>examination of the "human skin" products by American authorities showed the
>products to be made of goat skin?
No, Greg. There existed at least one object which was claimed to be
human skin which turned out to be goat skin. Once again a revisionist
twists the facts.
However, it's not likely that the objects with decorative tatoos of
the type one sees on humans were goat skin.
But what's your point, really. Even if they're all hoaxes it really
would indicate very little except that someone thought they were real
at some point in time.
I realize revisionists like to conclude that if they find one false
fact it's "proof" that all facts are false. But that's why their
beliefs more closely resemble a medical condition than a legitimate
point of view.
--
-Barry Shein
Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD
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Article: 14429 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Let's hear both sides
In-Reply-To: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com's message of Wed, 27 Jul 1994 23:10:29 -0800
Message-ID:
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 1994 05:40:48 GMT
Lines: 13
1945
2 April Hitler dictates his will: ``Eternal gratitude
will be owed to National Socialism because I
exterminated the Jews in Germany and Central
Europe''.
--
-Barry Shein
Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD
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Article: 14430 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Auschwitz myths and facts
In-Reply-To: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com's message of Thu, 28 Jul 1994 21:38:48 -0800
Message-ID:
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <317svt$bp2@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 1994 05:51:28 GMT
Lines: 27
From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
>> Really, it's time for something new. It is boring to see this
>> tired old nonsense that Gannon posted here a zillion times.
>
>So it is not okay for revisionists to post this, but it is okay for
>exterminationists to post and repost their tired, off-point screeds?
It's not so okay for revisionists to post and re-post refuted
documents in the vain hope that perhaps someone who is not aware of
the refutations stumbles across them and believes them.
Your idea of a refutation of "exterminationists'" evidence is to just
keep asking whether this is the *best* evidence they have.
Other than futiley claiming them all to be forgeries there has been no
refutation of the core evidence of the holocaust.
However, the revisionists have been caught in distortions and outright
lies so many times that only a very naive person would consider their
garbage for a moment.
--
-Barry Shein
Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD
From oneb!kmcvay Sat Jul 30 22:07:07 PDT 1994
Article: 14432 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!kmcvay
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Subject: Re: Let's hear both sides
References:
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Message-ID: <1994Jul31.050429.2554@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 94 05:04:29 GMT
In article bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) writes:
>1945
>2 April Hitler dictates his will: ``Eternal gratitude
> will be owed to National Socialism because I
> exterminated the Jews in Germany and Central
> Europe''.
Forgery - Hitler did not die, and the fact that no autopsy exists
proves it; therefore, he did not write a will. He lives in Brooklyn,
with most of the other so-called "dead" Nazis, and operates an
architectural firm.
--
"Everything I do is done with the full knowledge of the Fuehrer."
(Himmler, Heinrich. See Jochen von Lang, "Der Adjutant: Karl Wolff,"
Munich: Herbig, 1985, pp . 140ff)
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Article: 14434 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: uroessl1@gwdu03.gwdg.de (Uwe Roessler)
Subject: Re: Auschwitz myths and facts
Message-ID:
Organization: GWDG, Goettingen
References: <582QBVKF@gwdu03.gwdg.de>
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 1994 17:50:22 GMT
Lines: 42
greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:
>In article <582QBVKF@gwdu03.gwdg.de>, uroessl1@gwdu03.gwdg.de (Uwe
>Roessler) wrote:
>> How it works:
>>
>> greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:
>>
>> >Auschwitz: myths and facts
>>
>> >by Mark Weber
>>
>> >Nearly everyone has heard of Auschwitz, the German concentration camp where
>> >great numbers of Jews and others were reportedly exterminated in gas
>> >chambers during the Second World War.
>>
>> >Auschwitz is widely regarded as the most terrible Nazi extermination
>> >center. This image, however, cannot be reconciled with the facts.
>>
>> So, we come to understand, Weber found out, there existed Nazi
>> extermination centers worse than Auschwitz.
>> I'm interested to hear, how Weber tries to prove this claim.
>There seems to be a language problem here. If you understand English and
>read the entire post, I think you will grasp the point Mr. Weber is trying
>to make, whether or not you agree with it.
Dass an dieser Stelle ein Sprachproblem vorliegt, ist allerdings nicht
zu leugnen; es ist aber eines von der Sorte, die den Autor zur Ver-
zweiflung treibt, denn hier gesteht das Leugnen ein, was es in Abrede
stellen will, und die blinde Dummheit plaudert aus, was wahrzunehmen
ihr anders nicht gestattet ist.
>--
>Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
u.roessler uroessl1@gwdg.de
"Es ist nicht unmoeglich, dass es fuer Adolf Hitler irgendeine Recht-
fertigung gibt; ich weiss, fuer die Germanophilen gibt es keine."
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Article: 14436 of alt.revisionism
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Gassings in the Old Reich
Date: 29 Jul 1994 11:18:40 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <31aoig$qe1@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References: <319dts$s3c@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu
X-ORIGINAL-NEWSGROUPS: alt.revisionism
Raven keeps lying. Broszat never said there were no gas chambers in
the "Old Reich". He said that the *mass gassings* took place in
the camps the SS built in Poland.
The interesting thing is that the "Institute for Contemporary
History" in Munich is aware of this lie spread by Holocaust deniers,
and it specifically referred to it in the summary it published
and which it was kind enough to send me. They explicitly mention
that they never said no gassing took place in the "Old Reich", and
they list 6 camps in the "Old Reich" in which gassing took place.
I hope our "revisionist scholars" will stop lying and misquoting
the "Institute for Contemporary History", but, knowing who we're
dealing with, I guess this is in vain.
-Danny Keren.
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Article: 14437 of alt.revisionism
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The deliberate starvation policy of Hitler
Date: 29 Jul 1994 11:24:05 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 6
Message-ID: <31aosl$qlp@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References: <317s08$b61@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
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X-ORIGINAL-NEWSGROUPS: alt.revisionism
Raven reaches new heights. I guess he now claims the shrunken heads
discovered at Buchenwald are of goats.
-Danny Keren.
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Article: 14438 of alt.revisionism
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz myths and facts
Date: 29 Jul 1994 11:33:05 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <31apdh$qvs@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References: <317svt$bp2@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
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X-ORIGINAL-NEWSGROUPS: alt.revisionism
Leuchter, in his horribly stupid "report", claimed, for instance,
that it would have been impossible to use HCN gas in the
Auschwitz gas chambers. I think no "revisionists" still claim this,
as it was obviously used there.
Leuchter also claims, for instance, that those pouring the Zyklon-B in
would suffer from the gas themselves. I guess the "gas chamber
expert" never heard of gas masks.
I've read some stupid things in my life, but the "Leuchter report"
tops them all.
-Danny Keren.
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Article: 14440 of alt.revisionism
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The deliberate starvation policy of Hitler
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 1994 06:28:32 -0400
Organization: University of Michigan
Lines: 67
Message-ID:
References: <2vpbnp$cpq@search01.news.aol.com>
<315haq$686@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
<318gd1$jqn@access2.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 35.132.2.10
greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote:
> I missed Jamie McCarthy's post on this matter, but let's look at the text
> of the Vanity Fair article and see what it says:
[deletia, to get to the section concerning Lipstadt -jrm]
> And Professor Lipstadt
> directed me to page 188 of her book, which is quite a page. It says that
> the stories about the Nazis making Jews into soap are entirely untrue, and
> it also says that while the memorial stone at Auschwitz itself lists the
> number of victims -- Jews and non-Jews -- at 4 million, the truer figure is
> somewhere between 1.5 and 2 million. Since Hoess was the commandant of the
> place for only part of its existence, this means that -- according to the
> counter-revisionists -- an important piece of evidence in the Holocaust
> Memorial is not reliable. A vertiginous sensation if you like.
>
> "It's the same with the soap story," said Lipstadt. "I get protests from
> survivors, saying that I shouldn't admit it's not true, because it gives
> ammunition to the enemy. But I'm only interested in getting at the truth."
[Raven again:]
> Lipstadt seems basically to be lumping the Hoess
> statement in with the "human soap" stories as being "not true." What am I
> missing here?
Mr. Raven is here missing the fact that Lipstadt nowhere says anything
like that.
The author of the article puts those two paragraphs back to back, but, and
I hesitate for fear of repeating myself, Lipstadt nowhere implies that,
and I quote Mr. Raven, "the Hoess statements are useless."
Mr. Raven, I challenge you to retract your false statement that Lipstadt
has in any way suggested that, quote "the Hoess statements are useless."
Had you bothered to read Lipstadt's book, you would have noted that
Hoess' name does not appear on page 188, or on any other page -- or at
least Hoess is not in her index. Had you bothered to read the Vanity Fair
article instead of deciding arbitrarily what it "seemed basically" to say,
you would have noted that Lipstadt nowhere mentions Hoess.
Please note that Mr. Raven was the one who brought up Hoess in the first
place. If he wants to, I'll be happy to discuss Hoess with him until the
cows come home. The short version of the discussion is: Hoess
testified that 2.5 million were gassed at Auschwitz, but later testimony
and his memoirs make it plain that such an inflated figure was based on
inaccurate reports, because Hoess was forbidden to keep written records.
Hoess' numbers in his testimony in any case have nothing to do with how
historians arrive at the number killed in Auschwitz, and even less to do
with the four million figure that the Communists arrived at for political
reasons. No serious historian ever accepted the four million figure, and
even the Communist government retracted it in the late 80s. _This_ is
what Lipstadt considers "the same with the soap story": the fact that
you can't whitewash things that _appear_ to give support to deniers'
claims. You simply have to explain them, and trust that people are
intelligent enough to figure it out for themselves.
Unlike, apparently, Mr. Raven, who reads about Lipstadt's referencing the
Communists' four-million figure, and then reads a line from her comparing
that to the soap story, and somehow jumps to the conclusion that Lipstadt
considers _Hoess_ to be an invalid witness!? Bizarre.
--
Jamie McCarthy Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu AppleLink: j.mccarthy
I speak for no one but myself.
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Article: 14441 of alt.revisionism
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Keren's methodology
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 1994 06:33:51 -0400
Organization: University of Michigan
Lines: 36
Message-ID:
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: 35.132.2.10
greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote:
> k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
> > Mr. Raven has never challenged the authenticity of the evidence that
Dr. Keren
> > presented regarding this gassing of POWs (note the plural).
> >
> > It would seem that he accepts that the gassing took place!
> >
> > And it is amazing that he is so stuck on Jews that he is unwilling to
discuss
> > the other victims of the Nazi mass murders. Talk about single-minded.
> > I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.
>
> Perhaps you missed the beginning of my posts here. I was asking for the
> best evidence of a Nazi policy or plan of extermination of Jews in gas
> chambers.
I don't think I'm alone when I say that it does injustice to the non-Jewish
victims of the Nazi camps to treat Jews as the only victims. A very
important "class" of victim, to be sure, because of their special place in
the Nazi scheme of things. But five or six million non-Jews died as well,
and it's rather offensive that Mr. Raven deems them unworthy of consideration.
> Russian POW (short for "prisoners of war," just as "rpm" is short
> for "revolutions per minute"). This is very simple.
Have it your way.
Mr. Raven has never challenged the authenticity of the evidence that Dr. Keren
presented regarding this gassing of POW.
It would seem that he accepts that the gassing took place!
--
Jamie McCarthy Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu AppleLink: j.mccarthy
I speak for no one but myself.
From oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!cat.cis.Brown.EDU!dzk Sun Jul 31 04:27:20 PDT 1994
Article: 14442 of alt.revisionism
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Raven's methodology
Date: 29 Jul 1994 11:42:39 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <31apvf$rb0@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References: <315k1n$88k@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <31a20m$2cl@access3.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu
This is really like talking to a brick wall, but I'll try nontheless.
1) It is impossible to choose "the best piece of evidence" for the
Holocaust. For instance, how can one choose which of the eyewitness
testimonies for the gassings at the various camps is "best"?
2) The reality of any historical event is not in the single "best
piece of evidence", but in the amount of the evidence present and the
way it converges to a similar general picture of what happened.
Why is it so difficult to understand this?
-Danny Keren.
From oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!garnet.berkeley.edu!schultz Sun Jul 31 04:27:21 PDT 1994
Article: 14445 of alt.revisionism
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From: schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu (Richard Schultz)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The deliberate starvation policy of Hitler
Date: 29 Jul 1994 13:06:04 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <31aurs$rfs@agate.berkeley.edu>
References: <317s08$b61@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <31a2n9$2od@access3.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu
In article <31a2n9$2od@access3.digex.net>,
Michael P. Stein wrote:
>On this logic, there is no proof Caesar was assassinated, as it
>is no longer possible to conduct forensic tests.
Please provide the single best piece of evidence that Caesar existed.
Wait a minute, isn't Caesar a kind of salad? Just what are you trying
to pull on us anyway?
Richard Schultz
From oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!alberta!quartz.ucs.ualberta.ca!acs.ucalgary.ca!hexham Sun Jul 31 04:27:22 PDT 1994
Article: 14450 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!alberta!quartz.ucs.ualberta.ca!acs.ucalgary.ca!hexham
From: hexham@acs.ucalgary.ca (Irving Hexham)
Subject: Re: Gas/Petrol from Coal
Message-ID:
Sender: Irving Hexham
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 1994 14:46:36 GMT
References: <318cir$3pf@sbctri.sbc.com>
Organization: The University of Calgary, Alberta
Lines: 19
Alan Asper suggests that it is impossible to extract
petrol from coal, because if it could be done U.S. petrol prices
would be $.20 cents per gallon.
As a matter of fact it is possible to extract petrol, or
at least a liquid fuel which can be used as a petrol substitute
in motor cars, from coal. The South Africans have been doing it
for years at the various Sassol plants. The first of these plants
was built at Sassolburg in the Transvaal in the 1960's. The
technology involved was based on the Lurgi process developed in
Nazi Germany during WWII.
There is a book documenting the history of Sassol by the
late Johanes Meintjes. I'm not sure of the publisher but think it
was the Nationale Pers in Johannesburg. The book was published
around 1972.
The main reason the U.S. does not convert coal to
gasoline is that it is a very expensive process.
From oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!news.hal.COM!olivea!uunet!world!bzs Sun Jul 31 04:27:23 PDT 1994
Article: 14454 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Raven's methodology
In-Reply-To: dzk@cs.brown.edu's message of 29 Jul 1994 11:42:39 GMT
Message-ID:
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <315k1n$88k@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
<31a20m$2cl@access3.digex.net> <31apvf$rb0@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 1994 01:54:01 GMT
Lines: 18
Perhaps Raven can clarify this demand he has made which apparently to
many of us seems idiotic. Maybe we all misunderstand him.
He wants the single best piece of evidence of the Holocaust.
I assume Mr Raven believes World War II occurred (?)
So what is the single best piece of evidence that World War II
occurred?
Just as an example of the kind of thing he is looking for.
--
-Barry Shein
Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD
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Article: 14455 of alt.revisionism
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From: bergf@iia.org (Friedrich Berg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Gassings in the Old Reich
Date: 30 Jul 1994 02:03:25 GMT
Organization: International Internet Association.
Lines: 8
Message-ID: <31ccdd$7sb@ankh.iia.org>
References: <319dts$s3c@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <31aoig$qe1@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: mary.iia.org
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Dear Readers,
Perhaps Mr. Keren would care to tell us which 6 camps in the "Old Reich"
had been the site of "gassings" according to the Institute of
Contemporary History in Munich.
FPBERG
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Article: 14458 of alt.revisionism
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From: bergf@iia.org (Friedrich Berg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Real Lesson of the Holocaust
Date: 30 Jul 1994 03:26:05 GMT
Organization: International Internet Association.
Lines: 97
Message-ID: <31ch8e$7sb@ankh.iia.org>
References: <30vcvu$6h5@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> <3164ap$k80@access2.digex.net>
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Dear Readers,
Mr. Stein's comments are pretty dumb, as usual, but it seems to be a slow
night--and so, I'll give some comments of my own.
Zyklon-B was a life-saving substance that was used worldwide already in
the 1920's. It is still used today worldwide. During WW2 it was even used
by the US Army to fumigate barracks. For clothing the Americans used
methyl bromide, probably because they had not been able to get delousing
chambers like those developed by DEGESCH for safe delousing with Zyklon-B.
The terminology "disinfecting" was widely used even though it is not
strictly correct. The Germans preferred to describe the process
as "disinfestation." When lice were the principal target, the term
"delousing", in German "Entlausung", was used. Delousing was routine not
just for Jews under German occupation but for all concentration camp
prisoners, for all soldiers returning from the Eastern Front, and for
people in general who were passing through areas where lice infestation
was common and where typhus was endemic.
One hallmark of exterminationist hoakiness is the idea that the German use
of the term "special," in German "Sonder." was some sort of euphemism for
mass murder of Jews. That assertion is pure rubbish. The German use of
the word "special" is no more sinister than its use in English. It was
used in general to describe something rather out of the ordinary just as
the word is used in English. "Sonderbehandlung" simply meant some kind of
special procedure. When it was used by Dr. Kremer to describe his work at
Auschwitz in the summer of 1942, it simply referred to the out of the
ordinary measures that were taken to bring the typhus epidemic, most
unusual in the summer, under control. Typhus is usually an epidemic only
in the winter when people are disinclined because of the cold to remove
their clothes and bathe properly.
Jews and others were "subjected" to "Sonderbehandlung" in order to keep
them alive. The fact that life-saving measures are repeatedly portrayed
by the hatemongers as part of some murderous program is a true hallmark of
exterminationism--and it is a disgrace.
Today we can see on TV the cholera epidemic in Rwanda. Typhus during WW2
was even worse. There is much talk by TV "journalists" about the flight of
the native population from Rwanda being the greatest mass exodus in this
century or even in all history. That kind of talk is silly. The
flight of people away from the Soviets at the end of WW2 involved tens of
millions of people in bitter cold and while the war was still raging
everywhere.
Rwanda is a kind of flashback to Bergen-Belsen. Some important
differences are that conditions in Bergen-Belsen were never as bad as
they are now in Goma. The inmates had shelters at least--even if they were
overcrowded. German POWs in Eisenhower's death camps were not even given
blankets to cover themselves in the open fields where they were kept for
months after they surrendered.
Nonetheless, photographs of the sick or dead at Belsen are used again and
again to "prove' that the Nazis had been committing mass-murder with
gaschambers in totally different locations.
What really happened at Bergen-Belsen is easy enough to discover by
simply reading any number of articles in reputable medical journals in
the west at the end of the war.
The following is from the Journal of the American Medical Association
(JAMA) from May 19, 1945, page 220.
Typhus Causes a Truce
By negotiations between British and German officers, British troops took
over from the S.S. and the Wehrmacht the task of guarding the
concentration camp at Belsen, a few miles northwest of Celle, which
contains 60,000 prisoners, many of them political. This has been done
because typhus is rampant in the camp and it is vital that no prisoners be
released until the infection is checked. The advancing British agreed to
refrain from bombing or shelling the area of the camp. and the Germans
agreed to leave behind an armed guard which would be allowed to return to
their own lines a week after the British arrival. The story of the
negotiations is curious. Two German officers presented themselves before
the British outposts and explained that there were 9,000 sick in the camp
and that all sanitation had failed. They proposed that the British should
occupy the camp at once, as the responsibility was international in the
interests of health. In return for the delay caused by the truce the
Germans offered to surrender intact the bridges over the river Aller.
After brief consideration the British senior officer rejected the German
proposals, saying it was necessary that the British should occupy an area
of 10 kilometers round the camp in order to be sure of keeping their
troops and lines of communication away from the disease. The British
eventually took over the camp. (End of Article in JAMA)
If one reads the above carefully more than once, the picture is strikingly
different from what we are given in the Holocaust propaganda. Clearly,
there was an orderly negotiated transfer between the Germans and the
British--which had been initiated by the Germans. The subsequent measures to
help the sick with bathing and thorough cleaning and disinfestation with DDT
and the disposing of the dead were one example of a "Sonderbehandlung."
FPBERG
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Article: 14462 of alt.revisionism
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From: golux@mcs.com (The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Keren's methodology
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 1994 02:06:25 -0600
Organization: MCSNet Services
Lines: 57
Message-ID:
References: <315k1n$88k@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <315pq6$d9t@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <317rft$ath@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: golux.pr.mcs.net
In article , greg.ihr@kaiwan.com
(Greg Raven) wrote:
> In article <317rft$ath@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
> wrote:
>
> >
> > Apparently, Raven thinks I have to answer his silly questions. He
> > Doesn't understand that his questions are so ridiculous that
> > they are not worthy of an answer.
> >
> > Nontheless, in the hope that one day this will sink into
> > Raven's skull, I will repeat that there is no single "best"
> > evidence to the Holocaust, just like there is no single
> > best evidence that WW2 actually happened. The proof is in
> > the amount of the evidence and in the convergence of the
> > evidence to the same global picture.
> >
> >
> > -Danny Keren.
>
> Apparently you either have not read or have not understood my "silly
> questions." I have never said that there is only one piece of evidence that
> proves the Nazis had a plan or policy to exterminate the Jews in gas
> chambers. What I have said is that we are always told there is a mountain
> of evidence that proves these mass gassings. I am asking for the best
> example of such evidence that we may look at it together. We will either
> agree that it does provide proof, that it does not provide proof, or we
> will agree to disagree. Then we go on to the next piece of the mauntain of
> evidence.
>
> Do you have any good evidence, and if so, please chose what you consider to
> be your best piece of this evidence and let's look at it together.
Tell you what, Greg. Leaving aside your rather bizarre view of how to
investigate history (or anything, for that matter -- how many serious
researchers would use a single data point to prove a hypothesis?), let's
assume that for each piece of evidence posted here, there is one person,
somewhere, who believes that that piece of evidence is the "best" piece.
If you want, we can limit it to the evidence posted within the past week,
or even to those posted in threads in which you have participated.
So. If we assume that each piece of evidence has its own "sponsor," you
may now proceed from there to do whatever it is you intend to do with the
"best" piece of evidence; you just have to do it with all of them.
Silly? Perhaps. But certainly no sillier than your insistence on
conducting your version of historical analysis on a hypothetical, single,
all-proving piece of evidence. (Where *did* you get this idea that this is
how historical research is done? And how could you fail to have been
disabused of that notion in your previous sojourn in this group?)
--
D. J. Schaeffer | The Todal looks like a blob of glup.
golux@mcs.com | It makes a sound like rabbits screaming,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ and smells of old, unopened rooms.
-- Thurber, _The 13 Clocks_
From oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!torn!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!eff!news.kei.com!ddsw1!golux.pr.mcs.net!user Sun Jul 31 04:27:27 PDT 1994
Article: 14463 of alt.revisionism
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From: golux@mcs.com (The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Keren's methodology
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 1994 02:13:31 -0600
Organization: MCSNet Services
Lines: 18
Message-ID:
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: golux.pr.mcs.net
In article , greg.ihr@kaiwan.com
(Greg Raven) wrote:
> Russian POW (short for "prisoners of war," just as "rpm" is short
> for "revolutions per minute"). This is very simple.
Apparently not simple enough. One rarely, if ever, refers to a single
"revolution per minute," so "rpm" will always be used as a plural.
Prisoners of war, on the other hand, are frequently referred to in the
singular -- you know, "prisoner of war" -- so POW should properly be the
singular, and POWs (or POW's) is the plural.
--
D. J. Schaeffer | The Todal looks like a blob of glup.
golux@mcs.com | It makes a sound like rabbits screaming,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ and smells of old, unopened rooms.
-- Thurber, _The 13 Clocks_
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Article: 14475 of alt.revisionism
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From: bergf@iia.org (Friedrich Berg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Raven's methodology
Date: 30 Jul 1994 18:51:40 GMT
Organization: International Internet Association.
Lines: 109
Message-ID: <31e7fs$fi3@ankh.iia.org>
References: <315k1n$88k@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <31a20m$2cl@access3.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: mary.iia.org
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Dear Readers,
Instead of becoming just a bit more cautious, that would be a sign of
intelligence, Stein boldly repeats the same foolish assertions he has
made before. Here is some of what he wrote.
: Is the letter from Just to Rauff a forgery? Yes or no. If yes,
: please supply evidence. Friedrich Berg has called it a forgery but has
: refused to provide any evidence.
: Is the Franke-Gricksch report a forgery? Yes or no. If yes, please
: supply evidence. Friedrich Berg has called this a fabrication, but has
: refused to provide any evidence.
: Is the report of 23rd June 1943, listing the total cremation capacity
: of Auschwitz as 4,756 bodies per 24-hour day, a forgery? Yes or no. If
: yes, please supply evidence. (Please do not digress into a discussion of
: whether this number was really possible, or whether or not this proves
: anything. For right now I am only interested in knowing if the document
: is, in your view, a forgery or an authentic Nazi document.)
All three of the "documents" discussed in the above paragraphs from Stein
are forgeries.
A detailed presentation of evidence refuting the PS-501 material is too
involved for this kind of discusion on the Internet. The impatient will
have to wait for a published revisionist analysis of this document--that
should appear within the coming year. However, I will try, nonetheless, to
explain a few things about the letter from Becker to Rauff. First of all,
on September 7, 1945 the Nuremberg prosecution admitted already on their
cover document that: "Source of Original: Unknown--Obtained from OCC
London." Secondly, there are at least three significantly differing
versions of the document. Thirdly, the second page does not have the
"Geheime Reichsache" stamp which was normal on all pages of German
top-level security documents. "Geheime Reichsache" was the highest of the
three German levels of security for documents and involved an extremely
rigorous, document handling procedure.
The above three objections are still minor compared to what becomes clear
when one examines the Soviet showtrials of hapless German prisoners in
Krasnodar and Kharkov in 1943. There it was asserted that Saurer vehicles
just as in PS-501 with Diesel engines were used for mass-murder.
Repeatedly it was asserted during those trials that gasvans used Diesels
as the source of the poisonous gas. The letter from Becker to Rauff is
entirely consistent with the concocted evidence of those showtrials except
for one feature: the Becker to Rauff letter does not mention Diesels at
all. A technical analysis of the various documents is decisive in
refuting PS-501 but it is too lengthy for this posting, and besides, Stein
couldn't begin to understand it anyway.
That the Saurer company of all German truck manufacturers should have been
implicated in a murder story involving the exhaust of its excellent and
extremely clean-burning, swirl-type Diesels is absurd in itself. That
story is even more preposterous as soon as one discovers that Saurer was
also the leading manufacture in the entire world of producer gas-driven
vehicles. The fuel would have made sense for mass-murder; the exhaust of
the Saurer engines made no sense at all.
By the way, the expression "S-wagen" did not mean "Spezial" as the fools
of hate continually insist in connection with PS-501. The "S" meant just
the opposite of "Spezial;"--it meant "Standard." All four-wheel, German
trucks during WW2 were classified as either A-type or S-type. "S" stood
for "standard' and meant the vehicle was a conventional, rear wheel driven
vehicle. "A" meant "All wheel" drive which meant that it was far better
suited to rough terrain and unpaved, muddy roads as were common in Russia.
All Becker was trying to get with his original letter (which was the basis
for the forged documents presented today) was a conversion or replacement
of his S-wagens with A-wagens. Rauff was the man to deal with in Berlin
for such changes; he was not a man to give a detailed essay about gassing
people to death or organizational structure within the Einsatzgruppen.
The monstrous fantasies built around the German use of "S" to describe
the trucks in this document merely confirms, once again, that the
exterminationist "scholars" haven't the foggiest idea as to what they are
talking about. The meaning of the "S" and even the German use of the
designation "Sonder" for "special" were routine and are discussed in
almost every book giving detailed information about German vehicles during
WW2. All German tanks, for example, were classified as
"Sonderkraftfahrzeuge:"--the Tigers were "Sd Kfz 181 or 182." The
standard German abbreviation for "Sonder" was "Sd" and not "S."
Now, let's consider the Francke-Gricksch report. There is NO such
document anywhere. There is only a supposed "transcription."
That is clearly spelled out even by Pressac.
Next and last we have a document that discusses cremation capacities for
the 48 crematory ovens in Birkenau. The document gives a number of 4,756
bodies per twenty-four hours. To do that in coal-fired crematory ovens
designed to cremate one body at a time is simply impossible. All the
contrived testimony in the world cannot alter that simple fact. What the
document asserts is simply absurd. The Germans certainly could have built
incinerator ovens to incinerate thousands of people per day but they did
nothing of the sort. Crematory ovens are quite different from incinerator
ovens. The Topf & Sons crematory ovens were typical crematory ovens like
those found almost everywhere in the world; they were designed with one
overriding purpose and that was to allow a recovery of the ashes of one
body at a time without comingling of ashes from other people. The
recovery of ashes only made sense if one intended to return a portion of
the ashes to family members. If one had stuffed more than one
normal-sized body into any of these crematory ovens, one would have almost
certainly had contact between the corpses and the fire-brick which was to
be strictly avoided. The reason: uneven heating of the fire-brick from
the combustion of corpses in direct contact with the brick causes rapid
"exfoliation" and breakdown of the fire-brick.
Stein will never understand, but there are some sane people out there who
will. Join the revisionists!
FPBERG
From oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!psgrain!library.ucla.edu!agate!cat.cis.Brown.EDU!dzk Sun Jul 31 15:03:12 PDT 1994
Article: 14481 of alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!psgrain!library.ucla.edu!agate!cat.cis.Brown.EDU!dzk
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Gassings in the Old Reich
Date: 30 Jul 1994 20:22:19 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 149
Message-ID: <31ecpr$m23@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References: <31aoig$qe1@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <31ccdd$7sb@ankh.iia.org>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu
Friedrich Berg, the "revisionist scholar" who calls those who argue
with him "Jewish trash", "Jewish slime", "creatures" etc, asks:
# Perhaps Mr. Keren would care to tell us which 6 camps in the "Old Reich"
# had been the site of "gassings" according to the Institute of
# Contemporary History in Munich.
The summary sent to me from the ICH is below. Feel free to quote from
it, under the following conditions:
1) Verbatim quotes only.
2) The Institut Fuer Zeitgeschicthe has to be cited as the source.
**********************************************************************
Concerns: The killing of people through gas in the extermination and
concentrations camps under the Nazi power
The systematic murdering of humans through gas during the Nazi rule
was introduced for the first time from January 1940 on in the area of
the "Euthanasia", the extermination of the "lives not worthy to live"
of the handicapped, mental patients and the terminally ill, and from
fall 1941 on was continued to a much larger extent by the pogroms of
the operation groups of the security police and the SD in the seized
eastern areas with the help of mobile gas vans.
Beginning December of 1941 one proceeded in the camp Kulmhof (Polish
Chelmno) to use stationary gas vans for the killing of Jews, and from
the beginning of 1942 in different camps fixed gas chambers were
built, or already existing buildings were restructured for this
purpose.
One needs to differentiate by the furnishing of such gas chambers and
the gassing actions carried out within them between the mass gassings
of Jews in the extermination camps build for that purpose and the
gassings of smaller scale in individual, already existing
concentration camps (whereby patients, seized forced laborers, war
prisoners, and political prisoners among others were also victims)
The following extermination camps existed:
Kulmhof i.e. Chelmno (in the then Wartheland), where between December
1941 and fall 1942 and again from May until August 1944 gassings by
means of carbon monoxide from motor exhaust gas took place. Altogether
more than 150,000 Jews as well as 5000 gypsies have hereby been
killed.
Belzec (in the district Lublin of the then general governments): from
march to December 1942 in the beginning in three, later in six large
gas chambers by means of carbon monoxide from motor exhaust gas
altogether about 600,000 Jews were killed here.
Sobibor (district Lublin, general government) received in April 1942
three, later in September 1942 six gas chambers and until October 1943
it was "in operation". During this period at least 200,000 Jews have
been murdered through carbon monoxide gas.
Treblinka (district Warschau, general government) from the end of July
1942 on had three gas chambers and received at the start of September
1942 furthermore ten larger gas chambers. Up to the dissolution of the
camp in November 1943 altogether 700,000 Jews were killed here by
carbon monoxide.
Majdanek (district Lublin, general government): The concentration camp
existing since September 1941 turned into an extermination camp when
between April 1942 and November 1943 mass shootings took place to
which 24,000 Jews fell victim. In October 1942 also two, later three
gas chambers were built. In the beginning the killings in these were
done by means of carbon monoxide, soon however one was using Zyklon B
(a highly poisonous insecticide made from cyan hydrogen). Up until the
dissolution of the camp in March 1944 about 50,000 Jews have been
gassed.
Auschwitz-Birkenau (in the formerly polish, in 1939 adjoined to the
"Reich" upper eastern Silesian area, south eastern of Kattowitz): The
extermination camp in Birkenau, established in the second half of
1941, was joined to the concentration camp Auschwitz, existing since
May 1940. From January 1942 on in five gas chambers and from the end
of June 1943 in four additional large gassing-rooms gassings with
Zyklon B have been undertaken. Up until November 1944 more than one
million Jews and at least 4000 gypsies have been murdered by gas.
In the following concentration camps gas chambers were established and
have gone into operation:
Mauthausen (upper Austria): From fall 1941 on one gas chamber existed
which was operated with Zyklon B. In addition, gassings with carbon
monoxide took place through gas vans which were driven between
Mauthausen and it's side-camp Gusen. Altogether more than 4000 have
been killed here through gas.
Neuengamme (southeastern of Hamburg): From fall of 1942 on gassings
with Zyklon B were undertaken here in a "Bunker" prepared for that,
about 450 victims.
Sachsenhausen (Province Brandenburg, north of Berlin) received mid
March 1943 a gas chamber which was operated with Zyklon B. Several
thousand people fell victim to the gassings, a more specific number
cannot be determined.
Natzweiler (by Struthof, Elsass): From August 1943 to August 1944 a
gas chamber existed here in which between 120 and 200 people were
killed through Zyklon B in order to be able to dissect their skeletons
for the Anatomica Institute of University of Strassburg. Back then
this institute was managed by a chief company commander of SS Prof.
Dr. August Hirt.
Stutthof (east of Danzig) had from June 1944 on one gas chamber in
which more than 1000 were killed by Zyklon B.
Ravensbruck (Bradenburg, north of Berlin): Here still in January 1945
a gas chamber was established; the number of the people killed in it
was at least 2300.
Dachau (Upper Bavaria, northeast of Munich): During the establishment
of a new house of cremation in 1942 also a gas chamber was established
in it in which in connection with the medical experiments of the chief
company commander of SS Dr. Rascher also a few experimental gassings
were undertaken, as more recent research has confirmed. (On that see
Gunther Kimmel: The Concentration Camp Dachau. A study of the Nazi
crimes of violence in Bavaria in the NS-time II, edited by Martin
Broszat and Elke Froehlich, Munich, R. Oldenburg Press, 1979, P. 391.)
Larger gassing operations have not taken place in Dachau.
The victims of the operation groups of the security service and the SD
behind the German frontier in the Russia-campaign were to the by far
largest part Jews. Their number is estimated to be at least 900,000.
The difference between the total of the victims of the gassings cited
in the above mentioned composition and the number of victims of the
operation groups and the total of roughly 6 million victims of the
Nazi persecution of the Jews results from the fact that a very high
percentage of the victims have lost their lives through indirect
extermination actions such as the method "destruction through work",
bad treatment, under nourishment, epidemics, exhaustion during forced
transportations etc.
About 120,000 people were killed through the Nazi
"Euthanasia"-actions.
From oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!psgrain!library.ucla.edu!agate!cat.cis.Brown.EDU!dzk Sun Jul 31 15:03:13 PDT 1994
Article: 14483 of alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!psgrain!library.ucla.edu!agate!cat.cis.Brown.EDU!dzk
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Real Lesson of the Holocaust
Date: 30 Jul 1994 20:32:49 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <31eddh$mg4@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References: <30vcvu$6h5@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> <3164ap$k80@access2.digex.net> <31ch8e$7sb@ankh.iia.org>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu
Berg's account of Zyklon-B being used to "save lives" in Auschwitz is,
unfortunately, contradicted by those who were in the camp while it
was operating, and knew better what went on there than Berg. One
such person is SS man Hans Stark, who, it seems, didn't use Zyklon-B
for "saving lives":
>From the statement of Hans Stark, registrar of new arrivals, Auschwitz:
[Quoted in "'The Good Old Days'" - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The
Free Press, NY, 1988, p. 255].
--------------------------------------------------------------
At another, later gassing -- also in autumn 1941 -- Grabner* ordered
me to pour Zyklon B into the opening because only one medical orderly
had shown up. During a gassing Zyklon B had to be poured through both
openings of the gas-chamber room at the same time. This gassing was
also a transport of 200-250 Jews, once again men, women and children.
As the Zyklon B -- as already mentioned -- was in granular form, it
trickled down over the people as it was being poured in. They then
started to cry out terribly for they now knew what was happening to
them. I did not look through the opening because it had to be closed
as soon as the Zyklon B had been poured in. After a few minutes there
was silence. After some time had passed, it may have been ten to
fifteen minutes, the gas chamber was opened. The dead lay
higgledy-piggedly all over the place. It was a dreadful sight.
* Maximillian Grabner, Head of Political Department, Auschwitz
Berg also claims that Zyklon-B is being used today for fumigation
purposes - I heard it was used till a few years ago, and is no
longer used. If someone knows of current usage, I'd be grateful
if he/she informs me about it.
Berg makes another slight error with his interpretation of the term
"special treatment". It appears in numerous documents as a
camouflage term for murder. Kremer said himself that when writing
"special action" he meant gassing. Kremer was also at Auschwitz,
and he also knows better than Berg what transpired there.
-Danny Keren.
From oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!psgrain!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news.itd.umich.edu!via.kz.merit.edu!user Sun Jul 31 15:03:14 PDT 1994
Article: 14489 of alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!psgrain!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news.itd.umich.edu!via.kz.merit.edu!user
From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Real Lesson of the Holocaust
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 1994 14:38:34 -0400
Organization: University of Michigan
Lines: 443
Message-ID:
References: <30vcvu$6h5@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>
<3164ap$k80@access2.digex.net>
<31ch8e$7sb@ankh.iia.org>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 35.132.2.10
bergf@iia.org (Friedrich Berg) wrote:
> Dear Readers,
Dear Holocaust-deniers,
I was up till 4:00 last night rereading Camus' "The Myth of Sisyphus" and
I have the feeling that Camus had absolutely no idea how Absurd our
confrontation with the world really is. I'm getting kinda sick of this
whole farce. You don't mind if I cut to the quick with a few articles'
worth of pointed questions do you?
> Mr. Stein's comments are pretty dumb, as usual, but it seems to be a slow
> night--and so, I'll give some comments of my own.
Mr. Berg's claims rest upon a calculated and deliberate ignorance of the
facts, as usual. And he expects the readers of alt.revisionism to be so
dense or so uncritical that they don't even notice that his rubbish has
already been refuted several times, as usual.
> One hallmark of exterminationist hoakiness is the idea that the German use
> of the term "special," in German "Sonder." was some sort of euphemism for
> mass murder of Jews. That assertion is pure rubbish.
Oh, brother, here we go AGAIN.
Mr. Berg, we exterminationists have put together a little piece about the
word "Sonderbehandlung" and other euphemisms, and we've posted it to this
newsgroup occasionally. The occasion is the 16th of every month. Maybe
you've seen it? After all, it's been posted TWICE since you showed up
here. Do you expect us to believe that you somehow missed it?
Well, regardless of what you expect us to believe, how about responding
to the issues that we raise? Is that too much to ask?
> "Sonderbehandlung" simply meant some kind of special procedure.
In response to these unsubstantiated claims, I'll simply post the article
that we've sent to alt.revisionism six times, so far, and which has
incidentally received no response. And I'll simply ask of Mr. Berg the
same thing we ask of Mr. Gannon, namely to "examine the evidence which we
present, and refute it on a point-by-point basis."
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 94 08:00:07 GMT
From: periodic@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay)
Subject: GANNON: Question 11 (v. 1.0: Round 5)
Message-ID:
First-Publication Date: 1994/03/30
Archive/File: holocaust/b-cpu question.11
Last-Modified: 1994/03/21
[Followups directed to alt.revisionism]
In article <9403160332.A4611wk@banished.com>, in twelve flavours, and
subsequent articles, Dan Gannon responds to ten questions by, for
the most part, avoiding them entirely.
In his answers to question one, which asks about the description of
Zyklon-B as material for the "resettlement" and "special treatment" of
Jews, and question seven, which asks about the meaning of "special
treatment" and "special action," Mr. Gannon invokes the age-old denier
arguments about these words. We find it best to consolidate the
discussion to a new question, which we now ask a fifth time, to wit:
Question 11
-----------
Do you claim that the code words "special treatment," "resettlement,"
and so on were _never_ used to camoflage Nazi intentions of mass murder?
If so, please examine the evidence which we present, and refute it on a
point-by-point basis.
We think it's clear that Mr. Gannon _does_ claim this, though he hasn't
yet been able to specifically answer this question. He writes, in his
answer to question 1:
"Special treatment" ("Sonderbehandlung") was not a "code
word" and did not automatically mean "killing". It
meant a whole range of things...
Mr. Gannon then cites volumes of information from various deniers, who
have catalogued many obscure cases in which the code words meant something
very different than what they normally do. With this tactic, Mr. Gannon
seeks to confuse his audience, instead of addressing the issue. But we
are not interested in such special cases, because they are irrelevant.
They have no impact on the chief meaning of the code words, which we
document below.
Objective:
What we would like is for Mr. Gannon to address the cases in which
"special treatment" and the other euphemisms were used with reference to
the Nazi extermination effort. So that he may address each point, we
enumerate them here:
1. "Special treatment was killing, everyone knew that," says Eichmann.
2. To save lives, Kaltenbrunner directs that "special treatment is to be
limited to a minimum."
3. Special treatment is "elimination," writes Heydrich.
4. A memo at the Reich Security Main Office explains "special treatment"
by the annotation "execution."
5. Special treatment should be carried out by hanging, says Himmler.
6. A report from the Russian front equates special treatment with
"liquidation."
7. "No meaning other than killing," says former SS-Gruppenfu"rher Mazuw.
8. "Everyone knew what it meant," says former SS-Obersturmfu"hrer Hamann.
9. A letter from Himmler to Korherr asks that the term "special
treatment" not be used, as the meaning is too well known
10. An SS-Hauptsturmfu"hrer requests more gas vans for Jews to be
"treated in a special way."
11. A Gestapo memorandum requests that people "subject to special treatment"
be cremated.
12. The Adjutant at Auschwitz admits that "material for resettlement
of the Jews" meant Zyklon-B.
Sonderbehandlung - literally "special treatment." This is
probably encountered most often.
Umsiedlung - literally "resettlement."
Sonderaktion - literally "special action."
Evakuierung - literally "evacuation."
and, of course,
die Endlo"sung der Judenfrage - literally "the final solution
to the Jewish question."
In his response to question 1, Mr. Gannon offers Kaltenbrunner's
comments about French diplomats as his reponse to the "special
treatment" of European Jews -- the mind boggles at this logical leap.
He then expects us to swallow Faurisson's assertion that the Nazis'
"special treatment" was to help keep the Jews _alive_. This is,
obviously, contrary to the facts:
Starvation was a permanent guest at Auschwitz. The diet fed to
I.G. Auschwitz inmates, which included the famous 'Buna Soup' -
a nutritional aid not available to other prisoners - resulted in
an average weight loss for each individual of about six and a
half to nine pounds a week. At the end of a month, the change
in the prisoner's appearance was marked; at the end of two
months, the inmates were not recognizable except as caricatures
formed of skin, bones, and practically no flesh; after three
months, they were either dead or so unfit for work that they
were marked for release to the gas chambers at Birkenau. Two
physicians who studied the effect of the I.G. diet on the
inmates noticed that 'the normally nourished prisoner at Buna
could make up the deficiency by his own body for a period of
three months....The prisoners were condemned to burn up their
own body weight while working and, providing no infections
occurred, finally died of exhaustion.' (Borkin, 125)
Is that your idea of behavior aimed at "keeping the Jews alive?"
Perhaps, rather than quoting Faurisson in your vain attempt to
obfuscate, you should consider Adolf Eichmann's comments... unless,
of course, you are going to claim that Eichmann doesn't qualify as an
"expert" in "special handling," while Dr. Faurisson does?
During his interrogation by the Israelis, the following question was
asked:
What does "special treatment" mean, and who was subjected to it?
Eichmann's response is at variance with Faurisson's, which comes as no
surprise... it is interesting to note here Faurisson's employment of
the "if it sheds doubt on my thesis, I will ignore it" technique of
Holocaust denial is telling... Consider Eichmann's answer:
Special treatment was killing. Who thought up the term - I
don't know. Must have been Himmler, who else could it have been - but
then, I have no proof, maybe Heydrich thought it up after Go"ring gave
him his authorization. But I really don't know. I'm just trying to
puzzle it out.
"Special treatment was killing." (What part of that do you not
understand, Dan?) ...his interrogator replied:
But you knew special treatment meant killing?
Eichmann's response:
Everybody knew that, yes, Herr Hauptmann, everybody knew. When a
shipment was marked "for special treatment," they decided at the
point of arrival who was fit for labor and who wasn't.
"Everyone knew that," Gannon, except, apparently, you and Dr. Faurisson!
(Kaltenbrunner certainly knew it, too, hence his calculated and cynical
attempt to equate it with resorts, untouchable French diplomats, and
champagne.)
There is an interesting correlation between the use of "special
treatment" by the Nazis, and the similar employment of the words
"special healing procedure" (Besonderes Heilverfahren) as they related
to the shipment of disabled and mentally ill children to Grafeneck and
similar Nazi installation. Only a Nazi could use such a term to
describe the deliberate murder of thousands of children! (See Conot,
pages 204 to 207, for a detailed summary of the term, and the horrible
reality of its meaning.)
Let's get back to Mr. Kaltenbrunner, shall we? Since you quote some of
his Nuremberg testimony, it is apparent that you consider him a valid
source of information on this subject. That's encouraging, in light of
the following:
During the first two and one-half years of the occupation, the
security police in the government-general shot seventeen thousand
Poles, a figure that led Frank to comment: `We must not be
squeamish when we learn that a total of seventeen thousand people
have been shot; these persons who were shot were nothing more than
war victims.'(NCA, 2233 AA PS, Frank Journal, Jan. 25, 1943) In
1943, executions in Poland and Russia accelerated, even though
Kaltenbrunner directed that, `as a rule, no more children will be
shot [and] special treatment is to be limited to a minimum.' So
that this order would not be misunderstood, he explained that `if
we limit our harsh measures for the time being, that is only done
[because] the most important thing is the recruiting of workers.
(NCA, 3012 PS, To All Group Leaders of the Security Service-SD,
Mar. 19, 1943, cited in Conot, 276-278)
Let's take a look at the witness Kaltenbrunner, in light of your
assertion that "special treatment" equated with champagne and bon bons,
and Faurisson's silliness about keeping the Jews alive..
Kaltenbrunner wanted to keep Poles alive so they can be employed as
slave labour. In order to affect this end, he orders that "special
treatment is to be limited to a minimum." Isn't it ironic
that Kaltenbrunner would order "special treatment," Faurisson's
"keeping the Jews alive," to be "limited to a minimum" in order to
keep these folks alive?
What's wrong with this picture, Dan?
On September 20th, 1939, SS-Gruppenfuehrer Heydrich sent a telegram to
Gestapo regional and subregional headquarters on the "basic principles
of internal security during the war." You can find this in Nuernberg
document 1944-PS. Paragraph four of the telegram reads:
To avoid any misunderstandings, please take note of the following:
...a distinction must be made between those who may be dealt with in
the usual way and those who must be given special treatment. The
latter case covers subjects who, due to their most objectionable
nature, their dangerousness, or their ability to serve as tools of
propaganda for the enemy, are suitable for elimination, without
respect for persons, by merciless treatment (namely, by execution).
(Kogon, 6)
On September 26th, 1939, a memo at a staff meeting held at the Reich
Security Main Office indicates which sections were to be responsible for
handling the "special treatments." Next to the words "special
treatment" are written, in parentheses, "execution." This is Nuernberg
document 905-PS. (Ibid.)
Paragraph A, section III of a memorandum from Heinrich Himmler, dated
February 20th, 1942, states: "Special treatment is carried out by
hanging." This is Nuernberg document 3040-PS. (Ibid.)
>From "USSR Operational Report No. 124," dated October 25th, 1941, page 6:
"Due to the grave danger of epidemic, the complete liquidation of Jews
from the ghetto in Vitebsk was begun on October 8th, 1941. The number
of Jews to whom special treatment is to be applied is around 3,000."
The original is in the Federal Archives, ref. R 58/218. The
meaning of "special treatment" is clearly spelled out in many such
reports from the eastern front. (Ibid.)
In a hearing on November 9th, 1962, former SS-Gruppenfu"rher Emil
Mazuw stated: "During the war, the SS gave no meaning to
Sonderbehandlung other than killing. I am certain that high-ranking
officers knew it. I don't know whether the ordinary SS man did or
not. According to the terminology used at the time, I understand
'special treatment' to mean only killing and nothing else." [GStA
Frankfurt a/Main AZ: Jz 18/61, hearing of 9 Nov. 1962.]
In a hearing on May 4th, 1960, former SS-Obersturmfu"hrer Heinrich
Hamann stated: "Perhaps an explanation by the commander of the
Security Police in Cracow was required as to the meaning of 'special
treatment.' That's possible. But so far as I was concerned, I needed
no explanation. I knew this expression well from the time when I was
assigned to the Reich Security Main Office in Berlin. In prominent
cases, Himmler would write 'special treatment' in green in the margins
of the daily reports. That meant 'to be liquidated.' I didn't have to
explain the meaning of this term to my subordinates at Neu-Sandez
either. Everyone knew what it meant." [StA Bochum AZ: 16Js 84/60,
hearing of 4 May 1960.] (Ibid., 7)
In fact, Mr. Gannon, during the war the term "special treatment" was
so _commonly_ known as a euphemism for killing that Himmler decided to
replace it with "processed" (durchgeschleust). To that end, a member
of Himmler's staff, one SS-Obersturmbannfu"hrer Dr. Brandt, wrote to
Richard Korherr, the inspector of statistics on "the final solution of
the European Jewish question," on April 10th, 1943, saying:
The Reichsfu"hrer-SS [Himmler] has received your statistical
report.... He wishes that absolutely no mention should be made
anywhere of "special treatment for Jews."
Page 9 should therefore read as follows: "Transportation of Jews
from the eastern provinces to the Russian East: "Processed
[durchgeschleust] through camps in the General Government...
through camps in the Warthegau..." No other formulation is to be
used.
The original letter is in the Federal Archives, ref. NS 19(neu) 1570.
(Ibid., 7-8)
Please enlighten us, Mr. Gannon, as to what sort of special treatment
the Jews were getting, that was so dangerous that Himmler wanted to
even change the _euphemism_ used to describe it. "Taking French
lessons?" "Lessons in drinking champagne?" That would mean, then, that
the camps through which the Jews were "processed," under the new
euphemism, were not extermination camps at all, but really schools of
language and oenology, right? It seems a little strange for the
Nazis to take away Jews' property, forbid them associations with
non-Jews, destroy their shops, force them to wear yellow stars, herd
them onto trains, carry them into Poland, often in the dead of winter,
and deposit them into concentration camps where even you admit that
typhoid and starvation killed hundreds of thousands...just so that all
the Jews would be better educated with respect to foreign cultures and
alcoholic beverages.
Seems a little silly, doesn't it?
In a letter from SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Truehe to the Reich security
office, room 2D3A, Truehe requests additional gas vans:
"A transport of Jews, which has to be treated in a special way,
arrives weekly at the office of the commandant of the Security
Police and the Security Service of white Ruthenia. The three
S-vans which are there are not sufficient for that purpose. I
request assignment of another S-van (five tons). At the same
time I request the shipment of twenty gas hoses for the three
S-vans on hand since the ones on hand are leaky already." (Nazi,
Vol. I, 1001)
Did Truehe need the additional gas vans to transport the champagne, Mr.
Gannon? Or perhaps to take the Jews to summer camp?
In a Memorandum of Gestapo Headquarters, 15 June 1944, the following text
appears:
In amending my directive of June 20 1944, I request that
those people subject to special treatment be sent to a
crematorium to be cremated if possible." (TWC, Vol. IV,
1166.)
One might ask you, Mr. Gannon, why, after providing their victims of
"special treatment" with gallon upon gallon of champagne, and teaching them
to speak proper French, the Gestapo would insist upon their cremation? Do
enlighten us!
To Judge Hofmeyer, who presided the "Auschwitz trial" in Frankfurt,
it was obvious what such documents meant. Here is a relevant excerpt
from the court proceedings:
"Judge Hofmeyer asks Mulka whether he had issued an order
for a trip to Dessau (the poison gas Zyklon-B was
manufactured in Dessau).
Mulka: 'I know of only one instance in which I issued a
travel order for picking up disinfectants from Dessau.'
Judge Hofmeyer, leafing through his papers: 'But I seem to
have more than one here. Is that your signature? You can
look at them.'
Mulka walks up to the bench.
'What does this mean on this travel order, 'material for
resettlement of Jews'?'
'What did you take this to mean?' Mulka, after an embarrassed
pause: 'Well, Zyklon-B.'
Judge: 'You see, until now you have maintained that you had
nothing to do with the gassings. But it isn't so. You
signed a number of things here.'" (Naumann, 242)
Your argument, Mr. Gannon, is equivalent to claiming that an SS
officer who told his soldiers to "take the Jews out and kill them" is
innocent of murderous intent, because, a month before, he told those
same soldiers, who were preparing for a soccer game, to "go out there
and kill them."
_Context_, Mr. Gannon, is everything.
Work Cited
Borkin, Joseph. The Crime and Punishment of I.G. Farben. New York:
The Free Press, 1978, and London: Macmillan Publishing Company.
Conot, Robert E. Justice at Nuremberg. New York: Harper & Row,
1983
Kogon, Eugen, Hermann Langbein, and Adalbert Ru"ckerl. Nazi
Mass Murder: A Documentary History of the Use of Poison Gas.
New Haven and London: Yale University Press, 1993.
Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression - Washington, D.C.: U.S Government
Printing Office, 1946
TWC: Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military Tribunals -
Washington, D.C. U.S Government Printing Office, 1949-1953
Danny Keren
Ken McVay
Jamie McCarthy
Having already seen that article at least twice, Mr. Berg asserted:
> The German use of
> the word "special" is no more sinister than its use in English. It was
> used in general to describe something rather out of the ordinary just as
> the word is used in English. "Sonderbehandlung" simply meant some kind of
> special procedure. When it was used by Dr. Kremer to describe his work at
> Auschwitz in the summer of 1942, it simply referred to the out of the
> ordinary measures that were taken to bring the typhus epidemic, most
> unusual in the summer, under control. Typhus is usually an epidemic only
> in the winter when people are disinclined because of the cold to remove
> their clothes and bathe properly.
>
> Jews and others were "subjected" to "Sonderbehandlung" in order to keep
> them alive. The fact that life-saving measures are repeatedly portrayed
> by the hatemongers as part of some murderous program is a true hallmark of
> exterminationism--and it is a disgrace.
>
> ...The subsequent measures to
> help the sick with bathing and thorough cleaning and disinfestation with DDT
> and the disposing of the dead were one example of a "Sonderbehandlung."
>
> FPBERG
"Revisionist scholarship" at its finest.
--
Jamie McCarthy Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu AppleLink: j.mccarthy
I speak for no one but myself.
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Article: 14490 of alt.revisionism
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Real Lesson of the Holocaust
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 1994 14:59:46 -0400
Organization: University of Michigan
Lines: 82
Message-ID:
References: <30vcvu$6h5@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>
<3164ap$k80@access2.digex.net>
<31ch8e$7sb@ankh.iia.org>
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Whoops, forgot something.
bergf@iia.org (Friedrich Berg) wrote:
> Dear Readers,
[Disinfection and "Sonderbehandlung" rubbish deleted, since I dealt with
it in the previous article.]
> The German use of
> the word "special" is no more sinister than its use in English. It was
> used in general to describe something rather out of the ordinary just as
> the word is used in English. "Sonderbehandlung" simply meant some kind of
> special procedure. When it was used by Dr. Kremer to describe his work at
> Auschwitz in the summer of 1942, it simply referred to the out of the
> ordinary measures that were taken to bring the typhus epidemic, most
> unusual in the summer, under control.
Those Nazis had interesting ways of bringing the typhus epidemic under
control. This particular "out of the ordinary measure" included...well,
I'll let Dr. Kremer speak for himself:
As a doctor, my participation in these gassings,
called "special operations," consisted of standing at a spot near
the bunker, ready to intervene should my assistance be necessary.
...
The prisoners were first taken
to barracks where they undressed; from there they went, naked, to
the gas chambers. Most of the time things proceeded calmly, for the
SS men reassured the people by telling them they were going to have
a bath and be deloused. When all had been pushed into a gas
chamber, the door was closed and an SS man wearing a gas mark threw
the contents of a can of gas through an opening in the side wall.
Through this opening we could hear the cries and wailing of the
victims; we could hear their death throes.
This is from _Nazi Mass Murder_, by Eugen Kogon, H. Langbein, and
A. Rueckerl, Yale University Press, New Haven and London, 1993, pp.
149-150. The footnote indicates that this is from the diary, but as
far as I can tell that's a misprint, it must be his testimony. (I
just now noticed that, I'll look into it tonight.)
More testimony:
SS-Doctor Kremer at a hearing on 18 July 1947:
[Quoted in 'The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The
Free Press, NY, 1988, p. 258].
-------------------------------------------------------------------
I remember I once took part in the gassing of one of these groups
of women [from the women's camp in Auschwitz]. I cannot say how
big the group was. when I got close to the bunker I saw them
sitting on the ground. They were still clothed. As they were
wearing worn-out camp clothing they were not left in the undressing
hut but made to undress in the open air. I concluded from the
behavior of these women that they had no doubt what fate awaited
them, as they begged and sobbed to the SS men to spare them their
lives. However, they were herded into the gas chambers and gassed.
As an anatomist I have seen a lot of terrible things: I had had
a lot of experience with dead bodies, and yet what I saw that
day was like nothing I had ever seen before.
> The subsequent measures to
> help the sick with bathing and thorough cleaning and disinfestation with DDT
> and the disposing of the dead were one example of a "Sonderbehandlung."
Mr. Berg's calculated ignorance of the facts regarding Sonderbehandlung are
one example of "revisionist scholarship."
The text I cited from Kremer's diary above has been posted 3 times to
this newsgroup in the last seven weeks. Kremer's testimony has been posted
6 times in that same period.
No "revisionist scholar" on the net, and we have quite the collection of
them here by now, has referred to them in that time, with one exception.
That is Greg Raven, whose response to Kremer's testimony was a baldfaced
lie: "the diary," he wrote, "makes no mention of gassings or gas chambers...
In short, Kremer was not an eyewitness...."
Bah.
--
Jamie McCarthy Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu AppleLink: j.mccarthy
I speak for no one but myself.
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Article: 14493 of alt.revisionism
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Keren's methodology
Message-ID: <31b5se$iu@scunix2.harvard.edu>
From: stara@husc7.harvard.edu (Felix Vagabond)
Date: 29 Jul 1994 15:05:50 GMT
References:
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Greg Raven in his usual state on mind(tergiversor) wrote:
Please notice Greg trying hard to spew, but then can't manage to!
: Mr. Keren has an interesting habit of providing multiple pointless (or
: nearly pointless) exhibits where one good would should do. Apparently, even
: he realizes that he has no "best evidence" to support his Holocaust-related
: claims of mass homicidal gassings of Jews. By attempting to overwhelm the
: reader with "evidence," however, Keren in fact is diluting his position.
#^^^^^^^^ ^^^^ ^^^^^^^^#
Greg airhead reread your pointless statement.
Evidence means the following:
1. A thing or things helpful in forming a conclusion or judgment.
2. Something indicative; an outward sign.
3. Law. The documentary or oral statements and the material objects
admissible as testimony in a court of law.
4. Something visible or evident that gives grounds for believing in
the existence or presence of something else
Also:
1. To indicate clearly; exemplify or prove.
2. To support by testimony; attest.
Đidiom.
in evidence.
1. Plainly visible; to be seen.
2. Law. As legal evidence.
Fact/Facts (factum).
1. Information presented as objectively real.
2. A real occurrence; an event.
3.a. Something having real, demonstrable existence. b. The quality of
being real or actual.
4. A thing that has been done, especially a crime.
5. Law. The aspect of a case at law comprising events determined by evidence.
I have noticed you not responding to many questions were poisted to you, but
in turn you keep pillaging more of your elusion on the previous one's.
This leads to believe that you are not willing to listen and became stubborn
to the facts that were presented before you and everyone else, and it's you
who ought to examine his case carefully before you expose your ill-intention
to draw people into more of your deluded environment.
Facts are irrelevant to you since you dismiss them as no factual materials
and you need to have some kind of gas chamber moved next to your house to
look at it every day until you become familiar with it.
Greg the Nazis were not so stuipd as you like for us to believe you, neither
was Hitler's circle; Hitler sorrounded himself with cream of the Germans most
elite mind to ensure his fullfillment of his goals which was to (ausrotten
der Juden) and you know full well the rest of the story.
If
: there was one piece of evidence that supported his position, that would be
: the most importance piece of evidence, and could be cited without reference
: to anything else. Because no such evidence exists, Keren is forced to
: present tiny pieces of what he considers to be evidence, such that any
: given piece is completely unable to support his contentions relative to the
: gas chamber myth. Taking this to its logical conclusion, Keren will
: eventually produce so many pieces of non-evidence that none of them will
: support his contentions in any way, but it won't matter because he will
: have so many of them. With this approach, you could "prove" the existence
: of visitors to Earth from other solar systems.
I think Danny so far has been doing his most carefull presentation of the
facts, and his position is on track, where as you have have twisted them
and tried constantly to manipulate the facts to fill you own conclusion.
: If we agree that historical events must consist of more than eyewitness
: accounts of uneven value, then for the Nazi gas chambers to be considered
: historically factual there must be some solid evidence to support their
: existence. We are constantly told that there are mountains of such
: evidence,
As i mention above you have no use for facts, nor do you want to konw the
truth as we can observe from you allegiance to IHR(Neu-Nazi& Anti-smitic)
oragnization so I came to believe.
so I repeat my request for someone to provide me with the best
: piece of that evidence so that we may examine it together. If we agree that
: it does not pass muster, or agree to disagree as to its value, then we go
: onto the next piece. But there is a mountain of such evidence, so there
: shouldn't be a problem, right? For example, one good piece of evidence
: would be a message from an "extermination camp" to Berlin saying, "We have
: gassed the last of the trainloads of Jews as you ordered."
Load of rubbish! Repeat you are not interest in evidence nor facts, but lies
and I should say you are loaded with them.
Greg stop selling you adds here. It's illagel to advertise for commercial
entity on the net.
: --
: Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
: Institute for Historical Review/PO Box 2739/Newport Beach, CA 92659
: The Journal of Historical Review, 6 times/year, $40
: The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, $10.00 + $1.00 shipping
--
==============================================================================
( No memorial can ever exhibit or impart the holocaust of SIX MILLION Jews)
VIGILANS.ET AUDAX.SEMPER PARATUS.
==============================================================================
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Article: 14494 of alt.revisionism
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
From: staff@rabbit.augs.se (Staffan Friberg)
Subject: Re: The deliberate starvation policy of Hitler
References: <317s08$b61@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <31a2n9$2od@access3.digex.net> <31aurs$rfs@agate.berkeley.edu>
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In article <31aurs$rfs@agate.berkeley.edu> schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu (Richard Schultz) writes:
> In article <31a2n9$2od@access3.digex.net>,
> Michael P. Stein wrote:
>
> >On this logic, there is no proof Caesar was assassinated, as it
> >is no longer possible to conduct forensic tests.
>
> Please provide the single best piece of evidence that Caesar existed.
>
> Wait a minute, isn't Caesar a kind of salad? Just what are you trying
> to pull on us anyway?
I have always thought that Caesar was a title (meaning emperor, or something
like that) and not a name. It would then be impossible to prove that "he"
existed since it isn't a person.
I think that most of us agree that these kind of challanges are quite stupid
and that absolutely nothing important can come out of them.
--
//
//
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ \\ // AMIGA +++
+ Staffan Friberg + EMail: \X/ +
+ Undergraduate student Chemistry + +
+ Link÷ping University + InterNet: staff@rabbit.augs.se +
+ Sweden + FidoNet: 2:204/404.2 or +
+ + 2:204/418.9 +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Don't laugh - this is science"
(James Randi)
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Article: 14500 of alt.revisionism
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From: bergf@iia.org (Friedrich Berg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Real Lesson of the Holocaust
Date: 31 Jul 1994 01:43:36 GMT
Organization: International Internet Association.
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Dear Mr. Keren,
Is it your position that Zyklon-B was used at Auschwitz-Birkenau and/or
Auschwitz I ONLY for mass-murder--or are you willing to say that it was
ALSO used in those camps to save people's lives?
FPBERG
P.S. My position on "Sonderbehandlung" is certainly not contradicted in
the slightest by anything Kremer wrote in his diary--only by what he felt
obliged to say in his postwar trial.
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Article: 14506 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Real Lesson of the Holocaust
Date: 31 Jul 1994 01:24:15 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
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In article <31ch8e$7sb@ankh.iia.org>, Friedrich Berg wrote:
>Mr. Stein's comments are pretty dumb, as usual, but it seems to be a slow
>night--and so, I'll give some comments of my own.
Mr. Berg, I realize English is not your first language, so I'll try
to make this nice and slow so you can understand.
>Zyklon-B was a life-saving substance that was used worldwide already in
>the 1920's. It is still used today worldwide. During WW2 it was even used
>by the US Army to fumigate barracks. For clothing the Americans used
>methyl bromide, probably because they had not been able to get delousing
>chambers like those developed by DEGESCH for safe delousing with Zyklon-B.
>
>The terminology "disinfecting" was widely used even though it is not
>strictly correct. The Germans preferred to describe the process
>as "disinfestation." When lice were the principal target, the term
>"delousing", in German "Entlausung", was used. Delousing was routine not
>just for Jews under German occupation but for all concentration camp
>prisoners, for all soldiers returning from the Eastern Front, and for
>people in general who were passing through areas where lice infestation
>was common and where typhus was endemic.
Thank you, Mr. Berg. It should be quite clear from what I wrote - at
least to a native English speaker, or to someone of average intelligence -
that *I* knew exactly what Zyklon-B was originally invented for. However,
Bradley Smith was quoted as saying Zyklon-B was used to disinfect Jewish
prisoners. Greg Raven - associate editor of that journal you keep
telling everyone to buy - chimed in and said that it was widely accepted
that Zykon-B was used for disinfection.
If you say that disinfection is just sloppy writing for delousing,
that's fine. But I still would like to know if Mr. Smith truly believes
that it was used for delousing (or disinfecting, if you like) Jewish
*prisoners*. Not their clothes, but *them*.
I'm sure you know that this is a silly idea. I know it too. I'm
trying to find out if Mr. Smith knows it, or if he was quoted incorrectly.
Mr. Raven - again, associate editor of that journal you regard so highly
- didn't bother to correct it, so I was trying to find out if *he* really
knew it. I would have thought that he would have set the record straight
if he knew.
>Rwanda is a kind of flashback to Bergen-Belsen. Some important
>differences are that conditions in Bergen-Belsen were never as bad as
>they are now in Goma. The inmates had shelters at least--even if they were
>overcrowded. German POWs in Eisenhower's death camps were not even given
>blankets to cover themselves in the open fields where they were kept for
>months after they surrendered.
What does this prove about what did or didn't happen in Auschwitz?
Nothing at all.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
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Article: 14507 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Raven's methodology
Date: 31 Jul 1994 02:28:41 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
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Message-ID: <31fgap$2gg@access1.digex.net>
References: <31a20m$2cl@access3.digex.net> <31e7fs$fi3@ankh.iia.org>
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In article <31e7fs$fi3@ankh.iia.org>, Friedrich Berg wrote:
>Dear Readers,
>
>Instead of becoming just a bit more cautious, that would be a sign of
>intelligence, Stein boldly repeats the same foolish assertions he has
>made before. Here is some of what he wrote.
It is absolutely true that Berg has provided no proof that the
documents in question are forgeries. He has merely asserted it.
>: Is the letter from Just to Rauff a forgery? Yes or no. If yes,
>: please supply evidence. Friedrich Berg has called it a forgery but has
>: refused to provide any evidence.
>
>: Is the Franke-Gricksch report a forgery? Yes or no. If yes, please
>: supply evidence. Friedrich Berg has called this a fabrication, but has
>: refused to provide any evidence.
>
>: Is the report of 23rd June 1943, listing the total cremation capacity
>: of Auschwitz as 4,756 bodies per 24-hour day, a forgery? Yes or no. If
>: yes, please supply evidence. (Please do not digress into a discussion of
>: whether this number was really possible, or whether or not this proves
>: anything. For right now I am only interested in knowing if the document
>: is, in your view, a forgery or an authentic Nazi document.)
>
>All three of the "documents" discussed in the above paragraphs from Stein
>are forgeries.
Yes, well, where's the PROOF? I'm still waiting for something more
than "Put up or shut up!" Berg's empty assertions. I asked for EVIDENCE,
not assertions. "Because I say so" is not evidence.
>A detailed presentation of evidence refuting the PS-501 material is too
>involved for this kind of discusion on the Internet. The impatient will
>have to wait
I can't believe Friedrich "Put up or shut up!" Berg expects to get
away with this kind of weaseling. He certainly shows no patience at all
with other people, but he's been weaseling like this on the forgery
question for about a month now.
>for a published revisionist analysis of this document--that
>should appear within the coming year. However, I will try, nonetheless, to
>explain a few things about the letter from Becker to Rauff. First of all,
>on September 7, 1945 the Nuremberg prosecution admitted already on their
>cover document that: "Source of Original: Unknown--Obtained from OCC
>London."
I truly must be dumb. Berg expects me to believe those clever Jewish
forgers could fabricate this document, but couldn't fabricate a
little note about where it came from.
>Secondly, there are at least three significantly differing
>versions of the document.
Source, please?
>Thirdly, the second page does not have the
>"Geheime Reichsache" stamp which was normal on all pages of German
>top-level security documents.
Is that all three significantly differing versions?
And if those clever Jewish master forgers could make such a dumb
mistake, why can't the Germans?
>The above three objections are still minor compared to what becomes clear
>when one examines the Soviet showtrials of hapless German prisoners in
>Krasnodar and Kharkov in 1943. There it was asserted that Saurer vehicles
>just as in PS-501 with Diesel engines were used for mass-murder.
>Repeatedly it was asserted during those trials that gasvans used Diesels
>as the source of the poisonous gas. The letter from Becker to Rauff is
>entirely consistent with the concocted evidence of those showtrials except
>for one feature: the Becker to Rauff letter does not mention Diesels at
>all.
I have no idea why there is any reason why it should. If Becker and
Rauff both knew what was in the vans, why should they waste time
communicating already-known information? Again, I must be really stupid
not to understand why Germans tell each other things they already know
when we Americans generally don't.
>A technical analysis of the various documents is decisive in
>refuting PS-501 but it is too lengthy for this posting, and besides, Stein
>couldn't begin to understand it anyway.
Berg hasn't yet got a clue as to what I understand. This sure smells
like weaseling to me....
>That the Saurer company of all German truck manufacturers should have been
>implicated in a murder story involving the exhaust of its excellent and
>extremely clean-burning, swirl-type Diesels is absurd in itself.
I am not aware that Saurer was accused of producing the end product,
only the innocent initial product. If a burglar kills someone with a
Glock pistol, the Glock company is not "implicated" in the murder. Or am
I unaware of something? Were Saurer company executives tried as war
criminals for producing gassing vans?
>Now, let's consider the Francke-Gricksch report. There is NO such
>document anywhere. There is only a supposed "transcription."
>That is clearly spelled out even by Pressac.
This is what Pressac spells out: "The report was found in
[Franke-Gricksch's] career file and is now thought to be preserved in the
National Archives Collection of World War II, War Crimes Records, in
Washington, under reference NA RG 238." (p. 239) Pressac hasn't been to
look for the original, but NOWHERE does he say it's missing. I haven't
either; I'm a busy man too. Has Berg searched for it and found it
missing? He doesn't say. Instead, he distorts what Pressac says.
Berg has made a specific charge against Eric Lipmann of forgery.
Where is the proof? Note that this is not just another Soviet document.
Now he is postulating a broader conspiracy - one involving Americans (and,
in the matter of PS-501, the British, it would seem!). Who are these
conspirators? I see someone else has posted asking for ONE, JUST ONE
document like, "I planted the forged letters as you ordered." I second
the motion. Heck, does Berg even have any of that lousy eyewitness
testimony to back up his story?
>Next and last we have a document that discusses cremation capacities for
>the 48 crematory ovens in Birkenau. The document gives a number of 4,756
>bodies per twenty-four hours. To do that in coal-fired crematory ovens
>designed to cremate one body at a time is simply impossible. All the
>contrived testimony in the world cannot alter that simple fact. What the
>document asserts is simply absurd.
Mr. Berg really ought to learn to read. I specifically and explicitly
said I wasn't interested in whether the writer of the document was
mistaken. Can he really not understand this simple question: was the
document authentically written by a member of the SS or other person
working for the Reich, or was it fabricated after the war by someone else?
If the latter, what is the proof?
Is he saying that authentic German documents NEVER contain errors? If
not, then the fact that the figure may be erroneous (and it was; the ovens
could not handle that load) is NOT in and of itself proof that the
document was forged.
>The Topf & Sons crematory ovens were typical crematory ovens like
>those found almost everywhere in the world; they were designed with one
>overriding purpose and that was to allow a recovery of the ashes of one
>body at a time without comingling of ashes from other people. The
>recovery of ashes only made sense if one intended to return a portion of
>the ashes to family members.
Which they did - for a fee! (Pressac, p. 131. Of course, he notes
that the families had no way of knowing if the ashes they received really
were the right ones, and quite possibly weren't.)
>If one had stuffed more than one
>normal-sized body into any of these crematory ovens, one would have almost
>certainly had contact between the corpses and the fire-brick which was to
>be strictly avoided. The reason: uneven heating of the fire-brick from
>the combustion of corpses in direct contact with the brick causes rapid
>"exfoliation" and breakdown of the fire-brick.
And indeed, the ovens *did* break down! They had to resort to
pit-burning - the Resistance took photos, reproduced in Pressac at page
422.
For someone who yells about people running away, Berg sure seems
to be weaseling when it comes to providing PROOF that these documents are
forgeries. "It's too complicated ... you wouldn't understand ... trust me."
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!sunic!trane.uninett.no!eunet.no!nuug!EU.net!uunet!news1.digex.net!access.digex.net!not-for-mail Mon Aug 1 04:21:22 PDT 1994
Article: 14511 of alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!sunic!trane.uninett.no!eunet.no!nuug!EU.net!uunet!news1.digex.net!access.digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Keren's methodology
Date: 31 Jul 1994 11:07:10 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 97
Message-ID: <31gemu$4l7@access2.digex.net>
References: <315k1n$88k@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
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In article ,
Greg Raven wrote:
>In article <315k1n$88k@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
>wrote:
>> [...] Raven, BTW, refuses to specify what his education
>> is and whether he has any credentials or reputation as a historian.
>
>[...]And why are you so interested in personal details about me?
Is this one of those questions we're not allowed to ask?
But actually, Mr. Raven *has* provided this personal information.
Below is what appears in response to 'finger greg.ihr@kaiwan.com'. I
hope that this clears up most questions regarding Mr. Raven's background,
though I am still wondering which institution granted Mr. Raven's
degrees. Especially the LSD. (The Los Angeles police would probably
like to know the same thing.)
[kaiwan.com]
Login Name: greg.ihr Known as: Greg Raven
Directory: /u1/home5/greg.ihr Shell: /bin/csh
Where: (null)
Reach me at: (null)
Or Annoy me at: (null)
Other Info: (null)
Home System: KAIWAN.COM
Account used on Sat Jul 30 09:49 (PDT) (22 hours 0 minute ago).
Address mail to: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com
Has new mail; last one arrived Sat Jul 30 22:37 (9 hours 11 minutes ago).
Plan:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Home address:
P.O. Box 241556
Los Angeles, CA 90024
Work:
Institute for Historical Review
P.O. Box 2739
Newport Beach, CA 92659
telephone (714) 631-1490
telefax (714) 631-0981
Virtually no one in the Internet has ever asked, "Who is this person who
calls himself 'greg.ihr@kaiwan.com'?" In response to the underwhelming
curiosity, I am happy to to supply this background information.
Before the beginning, there was this turtle. And the turtle was alone.
And he looked around, and he saw his neighbor, which was his mother. And
he lay down upon his neighbor, and behold! she bore him in tears an oak
tree, which grew all day and then fell over -- like a bridge. And lo!
underneath this bridge there came a catfish. And he was very big. And he
was walking. And he was the biggest he had seen. And the fiery balls of
this catfish -- one representing the sun, the other the moon -- whirled
cold and lonely through the black hole of space. For some reason, these
insignificant lumps came together to form the first union, our Sun, the
heating system. And about this glowing gasbag rotated the Earth, a cat's
eye among maggies, blinking in astonishment across the face of time. The
Earth was covered with a molten scum of rocks, which bobbed like rats.
Later when there was less heat, the oceans and the sewers began to simmer
with a rich protein stew, and the mountains moved in to protect them. Life
as we know it was already in progress. Animals without backbones hid from
each other or fell down. Clamosaurs and oysterettes appeared as
appetizers. Then came the giant sponges, sucking up ten percent of all
life (except for the Giant Sea Orphans and Jungle Bunnies, which scared
everybody). Hundreds of years later in the Late Devouring Period, fish
became obnoxious. Trailerbites, chiggerbites, and mosquitos collided
aimlessly in the dense gas. Finally, tiny edible plants sprang up in rows,
giving birth to generations of insecticides, and other small dying
creatures. A short while later, I was born in Hollywood, California.
My proper title is His Excellency President for Life, LLD, PhD, BVD, LSD,
APD, Conqueror of the British Empire in Africa in General and Uganda in
Specific -- but you may call me Field Marshall Dr. Al-Hadji Raven for
short. Like most people my height, I have lead a dull but meaningless life
since childhood, when I was kidnapped by Indians and turned into an Alien.
If you must speak with me, keep in mind that I am still having some
difficulties with your Earth languages and customs.
Now, at this point you're probably asking yourself, "Is he still running
that old Macintosh SE/30 with 8 megabites of RAM and that worthless
Seagate hard drive, or is he running a Quadra 700 with 20 megabites of
RAM, a Daystar Digital universal FastCache, a half-gig Maxtor hard drive,
and Syquest 270 backup, with three CD-ROM players?" Well, to tell you the
truth, in all the excitement I kinda forgot myself. So I guess the
question you have to ask yourself is, "Do you feel lucky?" Well, do you,
punk?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!cat.cis.Brown.EDU!dzk Mon Aug 1 04:21:23 PDT 1994
Article: 14513 of alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!cat.cis.Brown.EDU!dzk
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Keren's methodology
Date: 31 Jul 1994 20:18:12 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 9
Message-ID: <31h0u4$7si@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References: <315k1n$88k@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <31gemu$4l7@access2.digex.net>
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That's a rather silly, tiresome piece Raven writes about himself - hardly
funny, the sort of thing highschool kids write during boring classes.
It would still be interesting to know what Ravens' education is, and,
specifically, does he have any qualifications or reputation as a
historian?
-Danny Keren.

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