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Re: OT: Indian Petter Engines

Mark, Thanks for the info - very useful. Can you explain some more about turning the fuel pump down . I don t understand how this could have (anywhere near)

Message 1 of 16
, Oct 6, 2006

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Mark,

Thanks for the info - very useful.

Can you explain some more about 'turning the fuel pump down'. I don't
understand how this could have (anywhere near) the desired effect,
because it would just mean that the engine didn't run at its
designated speed, yes?

Have you heard of anyone changing (increasing) the compression ratio
in an attempt to reduce the smoke?

Also, can you point me/us in the direction of these other, better,
similarly priced engines.

Mark

--- In Lister_CSOG@yahoogroups.com, "marksmbx" <marksmbx@...> wrote:
>
> AV and PH1 I believe. Read the manuals, its all there.
>
> They are a strong engine, I know more Petter clones with higher
hours
> on them with less problems than CS clones. They are far easier to
> maintain and parts are cheaper. But emissions will be a problem
soon
> enough. A new decision on lower Kw engines will happen in December.
I
> bet the engine Kw limit will claim more engines at lower Kw.
>
> The base design looks almost solid. The combustion is not right
tho.
> Their weakness is the choice of material grade and tolerances
choosen
> by the manufacturer. Kirolskar were the originators of this engine.
> And they made good ones, if you can find one.
>
> Pistons were always alu. Makes sense that way too.
>
> They run fine on veg oil as is. Temperature is the key for WVO and
> with winter approaching many on this list will soon discover the
> lowest temp their engines will start.
>
> You wont like the noise they make or the smoke they emit either!
>
> Other nice things about them, you have a choice of 3 different
weight
> flywheels depending on what your application is. You can rebuild
one
> faster than a CS. You can lift most parts without buggering up your
> back. Their oil pump is very nice and the fuel pump shim idea is so
> familar to anyone who worked on the original petters.
>
> The fuel system is all Mico, or meant to be. There are a lot of
Mico
> fakes in India, buyer beware. They are easy to start and the odd
one
> likes to play it brave and rev like hell until it runs outta fuel
or
> explodes. Dodgy govenor.
>
> If the smoke problem could be cured, I'd have a few. But there are
> other diesel engines out there similar in price that dont smoke and
> have a QC program in place. There are copies of Duetz, Perkins and
> Cummins out there that are well made. Off to China with you.
>
> I tried for months to build a filtering scheme for those engines,
but
> the volume of smoke is just too much to clean up. The combustion
> really needs to be looked at hard. It just aint right.
>
> Turning the fuel pump down is cheating and doesnt solve the
problem,
> only rob you of horses.
>
> Mark
>
>
> --- In Lister_CSOG@yahoogroups.com, "mark walker" <j.mark.walker@>
> wrote:
> >
> > This is certainly Off Topic, but you are the right audience to
ask
> this
> > question of.....
> >
> > I would like to know about the history of the Indian Petter type
> engine.
> > Which british Petter engine model (or models) is it a copy of?
Are
> these
> > engines any good (by design, I'm not interested in hearing about
> Indian
> > build quality, I want to know what is good about this design)?
> > How long have they been made?
> > What's their weaknesses?
> > How have the Indian's changed themover the years?
> > Were they ever IDI?
> > Did any of them ever have a Cast Iron Piston?
> >
> > I am toying with the idea of modifying one of these engines to
make
> it run
> > very well on VegOil, but I need to know about the engine before I
> embark on
> > the project.
> >
> > I will provide a night's worth of beer for the person who answers
> all those
> > questions (truthfully), so long as I can share it.
> >
> > Mark
> >
>

marksmbx

Less fuel = less smoke. But also less power, its a favourite trick among those trying to get a diesel engine car through its MOT. Taxi s do it all the time.

Message 2 of 16
, Oct 6, 2006

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Less fuel = less smoke. But also less power, its a favourite trick
among those trying to get a diesel engine car through its MOT. Taxi's
do it all the time. The mixture gets a tad lean though and very much
under powered.

I doubt the problem is compression. Running higher compression for
extended periods will likely cause damage anyway. I would look at
timing first then the head design and piston crown after that.

The indians dont need to cater for smoke emissions like we do. I have
told many of them already that unless they get this problem fixed,
bye bye EU and US sales.

I have signed an NDA with one Chinese Co involved with diesel genset
production, I cant reveal all.

If you approach Duetz in Germany them may be able to help you.

Mark

> Thanks for the info - very useful.
>
> Can you explain some more about 'turning the fuel pump down'. I

don't

> understand how this could have (anywhere near) the desired effect,
> because it would just mean that the engine didn't run at its
> designated speed, yes?
>
> Have you heard of anyone changing (increasing) the compression

ratio

> in an attempt to reduce the smoke?
>
> Also, can you point me/us in the direction of these other, better,
> similarly priced engines.
>
> Mark
>
>
>
> --- In Lister_CSOG@yahoogroups.com, "marksmbx" <marksmbx@> wrote:
> >
> > AV and PH1 I believe. Read the manuals, its all there.
> >
> > They are a strong engine, I know more Petter clones with higher
> hours
> > on them with less problems than CS clones. They are far easier to
> > maintain and parts are cheaper. But emissions will be a problem
> soon
> > enough. A new decision on lower Kw engines will happen in

December.

> I
> > bet the engine Kw limit will claim more engines at lower Kw.
> >
> > The base design looks almost solid. The combustion is not right
> tho.
> > Their weakness is the choice of material grade and tolerances
> choosen
> > by the manufacturer. Kirolskar were the originators of this

engine.

> > And they made good ones, if you can find one.
> >
> > Pistons were always alu. Makes sense that way too.
> >
> > They run fine on veg oil as is. Temperature is the key for WVO

and

> > with winter approaching many on this list will soon discover the
> > lowest temp their engines will start.
> >
> > You wont like the noise they make or the smoke they emit either!
> >
> > Other nice things about them, you have a choice of 3 different
> weight
> > flywheels depending on what your application is. You can rebuild
> one
> > faster than a CS. You can lift most parts without buggering up

your

> > back. Their oil pump is very nice and the fuel pump shim idea is

so

> > familar to anyone who worked on the original petters.
> >
> > The fuel system is all Mico, or meant to be. There are a lot of
> Mico
> > fakes in India, buyer beware. They are easy to start and the odd
> one
> > likes to play it brave and rev like hell until it runs outta fuel
> or
> > explodes. Dodgy govenor.
> >
> > If the smoke problem could be cured, I'd have a few. But there

are

> > other diesel engines out there similar in price that dont smoke

and

> > have a QC program in place. There are copies of Duetz, Perkins

and

> > Cummins out there that are well made. Off to China with you.
> >
> > I tried for months to build a filtering scheme for those engines,
> but
> > the volume of smoke is just too much to clean up. The combustion
> > really needs to be looked at hard. It just aint right.
> >
> > Turning the fuel pump down is cheating and doesnt solve the
> problem,
> > only rob you of horses.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> >
> > --- In Lister_CSOG@yahoogroups.com, "mark

walker" <j.mark.walker@>

> > wrote:
> > >
> > > This is certainly Off Topic, but you are the right audience to
> ask
> > this
> > > question of.....
> > >
> > > I would like to know about the history of the Indian Petter

type

> > engine.
> > > Which british Petter engine model (or models) is it a copy of?
> Are
> > these
> > > engines any good (by design, I'm not interested in hearing

about

> > Indian
> > > build quality, I want to know what is good about this design)?
> > > How long have they been made?
> > > What's their weaknesses?
> > > How have the Indian's changed themover the years?
> > > Were they ever IDI?
> > > Did any of them ever have a Cast Iron Piston?
> > >
> > > I am toying with the idea of modifying one of these engines to
> make
> > it run
> > > very well on VegOil, but I need to know about the engine before

I

> > embark on
> > > the project.
> > >
> > > I will provide a night's worth of beer for the person who

Mark, Given the following....... I have signed an NDA with one Chinese Co involved with diesel genset production, I cant reveal all. Will we be able to buy

Message 3 of 16
, Oct 6, 2006

0 Attachment

Mark,

Given the following.......

"I have signed an NDA with one Chinese Co involved with diesel genset
production, I cant reveal all."

Will we be able to buy good chinese gensets (from you you) in the near
future?
Will they be good at running on vegoil?

Mark

--- In Lister_CSOG@yahoogroups.com, "marksmbx" <marksmbx@...> wrote:
>
> Less fuel = less smoke. But also less power, its a favourite trick
> among those trying to get a diesel engine car through its MOT. Taxi's
> do it all the time. The mixture gets a tad lean though and very much
> under powered.
>
> I doubt the problem is compression. Running higher compression for
> extended periods will likely cause damage anyway. I would look at
> timing first then the head design and piston crown after that.
>
> The indians dont need to cater for smoke emissions like we do. I have
> told many of them already that unless they get this problem fixed,
> bye bye EU and US sales.
>
> I have signed an NDA with one Chinese Co involved with diesel genset
> production, I cant reveal all.
>
> If you approach Duetz in Germany them may be able to help you.
>
> Mark
>
> > Thanks for the info - very useful.
> >
> > Can you explain some more about 'turning the fuel pump down'. I
> don't
> > understand how this could have (anywhere near) the desired effect,
> > because it would just mean that the engine didn't run at its
> > designated speed, yes?
> >
> > Have you heard of anyone changing (increasing) the compression
> ratio
> > in an attempt to reduce the smoke?
> >
> > Also, can you point me/us in the direction of these other, better,
> > similarly priced engines.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Lister_CSOG@yahoogroups.com, "marksmbx" <marksmbx@> wrote:
> > >
> > > AV and PH1 I believe. Read the manuals, its all there.
> > >
> > > They are a strong engine, I know more Petter clones with higher
> > hours
> > > on them with less problems than CS clones. They are far easier to
> > > maintain and parts are cheaper. But emissions will be a problem
> > soon
> > > enough. A new decision on lower Kw engines will happen in
> December.
> > I
> > > bet the engine Kw limit will claim more engines at lower Kw.
> > >
> > > The base design looks almost solid. The combustion is not right
> > tho.
> > > Their weakness is the choice of material grade and tolerances
> > choosen
> > > by the manufacturer. Kirolskar were the originators of this
> engine.
> > > And they made good ones, if you can find one.
> > >
> > > Pistons were always alu. Makes sense that way too.
> > >
> > > They run fine on veg oil as is. Temperature is the key for WVO
> and
> > > with winter approaching many on this list will soon discover the
> > > lowest temp their engines will start.
> > >
> > > You wont like the noise they make or the smoke they emit either!
> > >
> > > Other nice things about them, you have a choice of 3 different
> > weight
> > > flywheels depending on what your application is. You can rebuild
> > one
> > > faster than a CS. You can lift most parts without buggering up
> your
> > > back. Their oil pump is very nice and the fuel pump shim idea is
> so
> > > familar to anyone who worked on the original petters.
> > >
> > > The fuel system is all Mico, or meant to be. There are a lot of
> > Mico
> > > fakes in India, buyer beware. They are easy to start and the odd
> > one
> > > likes to play it brave and rev like hell until it runs outta fuel
> > or
> > > explodes. Dodgy govenor.
> > >
> > > If the smoke problem could be cured, I'd have a few. But there
> are
> > > other diesel engines out there similar in price that dont smoke
> and
> > > have a QC program in place. There are copies of Duetz, Perkins
> and
> > > Cummins out there that are well made. Off to China with you.
> > >
> > > I tried for months to build a filtering scheme for those engines,
> > but
> > > the volume of smoke is just too much to clean up. The combustion
> > > really needs to be looked at hard. It just aint right.
> > >
> > > Turning the fuel pump down is cheating and doesnt solve the
> > problem,
> > > only rob you of horses.
> > >
> > > Mark
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In Lister_CSOG@yahoogroups.com, "mark
> walker" <j.mark.walker@>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > This is certainly Off Topic, but you are the right audience to
> > ask
> > > this
> > > > question of.....
> > > >
> > > > I would like to know about the history of the Indian Petter
> type
> > > engine.
> > > > Which british Petter engine model (or models) is it a copy of?
> > Are
> > > these
> > > > engines any good (by design, I'm not interested in hearing
> about
> > > Indian
> > > > build quality, I want to know what is good about this design)?
> > > > How long have they been made?
> > > > What's their weaknesses?
> > > > How have the Indian's changed themover the years?
> > > > Were they ever IDI?
> > > > Did any of them ever have a Cast Iron Piston?
> > > >
> > > > I am toying with the idea of modifying one of these engines to
> > make
> > > it run
> > > > very well on VegOil, but I need to know about the engine before
> I
> > > embark on
> > > > the project.
> > > >
> > > > I will provide a night's worth of beer for the person who
> answers
> > > all those
> > > > questions (truthfully), so long as I can share it.
> > > >
> > > > Mark
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

marksmbx

Mark, I am designing controls for these people and not selling their product. It is not something I see myself getting involved with, the market is not there

Message 4 of 16
, Oct 7, 2006

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Mark,

I am designing controls for these people and not selling their
product. It is not something I see myself getting involved with, the
market is not there for it yet I believe i.e veg oil powered gensets.

Industry tells you what sells and when I see veg oil powered gensets
on building sites and in farmers sheds, veg oil will then be a runner
for the masses. Until then agri diesel will power all these
commercially sold gensets. Veg oil will have to be widely available
to purchase before people will buy such gensets. When the local
garage have it from a pump, then your market exists.

rant/

Even if someone were to design or import any diesel genset with a
view to selling within the EU, it has a long line of redtape and
compliance to go through. Noise emissions, electrical CE testing,
exhaust emissions, Machinery Directives and perhaps health & safety
aspects. All great fun if your into that sort of thing. Could hit 5
figures for the tests and then you must also have some mechanism to
ensure your product stays within the guidlines too. That could mean
for example an exhaust and filter requiring a change every x hours or
once a year.

A registry is maintained with every genset sold within the EU. If you
build one and sell it or import and sell, its details must be sent to
the desigated authority in the country of sale responsible for
maintaining the database. If you sell in more than one country, then
you must send the details to that countries authority too. There is
no single point of contact for the entire EU for this, yes I know its
silly.

You cannot conduct exhaust emissions while running on veg oil, it is
illegal to do so. The testing must be conducted on pump diesel fuel
only.

There is more to this, but the above is a taster for those feeling
brave.

end rant/

I spoke with several people off list regarding the Indian petter type
engine as a more suitable prime mover. Sure they will work fine, but
in their current guise they will never pass exhaust emissions testing
and I do not see a way of filtering so they can comply. The engines
need more work before they are saleable in the EU and probably the US
too.

When you run the numbers on these engines and replace the starter
motor and alternator with better quality local items, which are
cheaper here, amazing as it sounds!.....then replace the exhaust for
a proper silencer, add on some oil filtration, you are not far off
the cost of a genuine Lister Petter diesel engine that has all
certifications and high quality build. Your local dealer will also
carry spares negating the need to keep a stock yourself.

It hasnt been done already for good reason, plenty importers look at
India and China for product. If there was money to be made and the
right product there, we would seen it for sale with one of these
engines in it.

India has good engines too, the only real high quality ones I saw
were made by Kirloskar. They even quote a rebuild time in their
product guides, thats what I want to see when I look at any new
engine. Germany has a good share of engines from Kirloskar, no
problems with them and excellent performance/life.

I dont wish to sound like I am slating the Indians, they are catering
for their own home market and the likes of Africa who do not demand
the same quality we do. What they sell fits their markets fine, it is
driven by price.

Us westerners are a pain for Indian manufacturers and we demand more
than they are accustomed to offering. We buy much less than their
main customers and building one higher quality engine in a sea of
regular builds is no easy task for any manufacturer.

You could buy the parts and build it yourself to ensure the casting
sand does not become a problem. But you'll have to measure each and
every part to ensure it is within tolernace and it has been finished
correctly. There is much time in that.

Have you gone off the idea to supply veg oil CS powered gensets?

Mark

> Given the following.......
>
> "I have signed an NDA with one Chinese Co involved with diesel

genset

> production, I cant reveal all."
>
> Will we be able to buy good chinese gensets (from you you) in the

near

> future?
> Will they be good at running on vegoil?
>

Andy Mahoney (www.homebrewpower.co.uk)

Mark Is Veg oil not available in every shot and supermarket throughout the world and also in the UK it is approx 50% the cost. That s just the new stuff I am

Message 5 of 16
, Oct 7, 2006

0 Attachment

Mark

Is Veg oil not available in every shot and supermarket
throughout the world and also in the UK it is approx 50% the cost.

I am designing controls for these people and not selling their
product. It is not something I see myself getting involved with, the
market is not there for it yet I believe i.e veg oil powered gensets.

Industry tells you what sells and when I see veg oil powered gensets
on building sites and in farmers sheds, veg oil will then be a runner
for the masses. Until then agri diesel will power all these
commercially sold gensets. Veg oil will have to be widely available
to purchase before people will buy such gensets. When the local
garage have it from a pump, then your market exists.

rant/

Even if someone were to design or import any diesel genset with a
view to selling within the EU, it has a long line of redtape and
compliance to go through. Noise emissions, electrical CE testing,
exhaust emissions, Machinery Directives and perhaps health & safety
aspects. All great fun if your into that sort of thing. Could hit 5
figures for the tests and then you must also have some mechanism to
ensure your product stays within the guidlines too. That could mean
for example an exhaust and filter requiring a change every x hours or
once a year.

A registry is maintained with every genset sold within the EU. If you
build one and sell it or import and sell, its details must be sent to
the desigated authority in the country of sale responsible for
maintaining the database. If you sell in more than one country, then
you must send the details to that countries authority too. There is
no single point of contact for the entire EU for this, yes I know its
silly.

You cannot conduct exhaust emissions while running on veg oil, it is
illegal to do so. The testing must be conducted on pump diesel fuel
only.

There is more to this, but the above is a taster for those feeling
brave.

end rant/

I spoke with several people off list regarding the Indian petter type
engine as a more suitable prime mover. Sure they will work fine, but
in their current guise they will never pass exhaust emissions testing
and I do not see a way of filtering so they can comply. The engines
need more work before they are saleable in the EU and probably the US
too.

When you run the numbers on these engines and replace the starter
motor and alternator with better quality local items, which are
cheaper here, amazing as it sounds!.....then replace the exhaust for
a proper silencer, add on some oil filtration, you are not far off
the cost of a genuine Lister Petter diesel engine that has all
certifications and high quality build. Your local dealer will also
carry spares negating the need to keep a stock yourself.

It hasnt been done already for good reason, plenty importers look at
India and China for product. If there was money to be made and the
right product there, we would seen it for sale with one of these
engines in it.

India has good engines too, the only real high quality ones I saw
were made by Kirloskar. They even quote a rebuild time in their
product guides, thats what I want to see when I look at any new
engine. Germany has a good share of engines from Kirloskar, no
problems with them and excellent performance/life.

I dont wish to sound like I am slating the Indians, they are catering
for their own home market and the likes of Africa who do not demand
the same quality we do. What they sell fits their markets fine, it is
driven by price.

Us westerners are a pain for Indian manufacturers and we demand more
than they are accustomed to offering. We buy much less than their
main customers and building one higher quality engine in a sea of
regular builds is no easy task for any manufacturer.

You could buy the parts and build it yourself to ensure the casting
sand does not become a problem. But you'll have to measure each and
every part to ensure it is within tolernace and it has been finished
correctly. There is much time in that.

Have you gone off the idea to supply veg oil CS powered gensets?

Mark

> Given the following.......
>
> "I have signed an NDA with one Chinese Co involved with diesel

genset

> production, I cant reveal all."
>
> Will we be able to buy good chinese gensets (from you you) in the

near

> future?
> Will they be good at running on vegoil?
>

marksmbx

Hi Andy, When used as a fuel the customs people must be satisfied. They are the rules over this side, I dunno what the law in the UK is on that. I am sure many

Message 6 of 16
, Oct 7, 2006

0 Attachment

Hi Andy,

When used as a fuel the customs people must be satisfied. They are
the rules over this side, I dunno what the law in the UK is on that.

I am sure many dont care about the law, or the customs man. I am
posting this as a heads up.

> for the masses. Until then agri diesel will power all these
> commercially sold gensets. Veg oil will have to be widely available
> to purchase before people will buy such gensets. When the local
> garage have it from a pump, then your market exists.
>
> rant/
>
> Even if someone were to design or import any diesel genset with a
> view to selling within the EU, it has a long line of redtape and
> compliance to go through. Noise emissions, electrical CE testing,
> exhaust emissions, Machinery Directives and perhaps health & safety
> aspects. All great fun if your into that sort of thing. Could hit 5
> figures for the tests and then you must also have some mechanism to
> ensure your product stays within the guidlines too. That could mean
> for example an exhaust and filter requiring a change every x hours

or

> once a year.
>
> A registry is maintained with every genset sold within the EU. If

you

> build one and sell it or import and sell, its details must be sent

to

> the desigated authority in the country of sale responsible for
> maintaining the database. If you sell in more than one country,

then

> you must send the details to that countries authority too. There is
> no single point of contact for the entire EU for this, yes I know

> illegal to do so. The testing must be conducted on pump diesel fuel
> only.
>
> There is more to this, but the above is a taster for those feeling
> brave.
>
> end rant/
>
> I spoke with several people off list regarding the Indian petter

type

> engine as a more suitable prime mover. Sure they will work fine,

but

> in their current guise they will never pass exhaust emissions

testing

> and I do not see a way of filtering so they can comply. The engines
> need more work before they are saleable in the EU and probably the

US

> too.
>
> When you run the numbers on these engines and replace the starter
> motor and alternator with better quality local items, which are
> cheaper here, amazing as it sounds!.....then replace the exhaust

for

> a proper silencer, add on some oil filtration, you are not far off
> the cost of a genuine Lister Petter diesel engine that has all
> certifications and high quality build. Your local dealer will also
> carry spares negating the need to keep a stock yourself.
>
> It hasnt been done already for good reason, plenty importers look

at

> India and China for product. If there was money to be made and the
> right product there, we would seen it for sale with one of these
> engines in it.
>
> India has good engines too, the only real high quality ones I saw
> were made by Kirloskar. They even quote a rebuild time in their
> product guides, thats what I want to see when I look at any new
> engine. Germany has a good share of engines from Kirloskar, no
> problems with them and excellent performance/life.
>
> I dont wish to sound like I am slating the Indians, they are

catering

> for their own home market and the likes of Africa who do not demand
> the same quality we do. What they sell fits their markets fine, it

is

> driven by price.
>
> Us westerners are a pain for Indian manufacturers and we demand

more

> than they are accustomed to offering. We buy much less than their
> main customers and building one higher quality engine in a sea of
> regular builds is no easy task for any manufacturer.
>
> You could buy the parts and build it yourself to ensure the casting
> sand does not become a problem. But you'll have to measure each and
> every part to ensure it is within tolernace and it has been

finished

> correctly. There is much time in that.
>
> Have you gone off the idea to supply veg oil CS powered gensets?
>
> Mark
>
> > Given the following.......
> >
> > "I have signed an NDA with one Chinese Co involved with diesel
> genset
> > production, I cant reveal all."
> >
> > Will we be able to buy good chinese gensets (from you you) in the
> near
> > future?
> > Will they be good at running on vegoil?
> >
>

Tim

Hi Guys, My veg oil cars have all had their emissions tested on veg oil since 1999 in their NCT s (GB users read MOT here). Are these emission tests invalid?

Message 7 of 16
, Oct 7, 2006

0 Attachment

Hi Guys,My veg oil cars have all had their emissions tested on veg oil since 1999 in their NCT's (GB users read MOT here). Are these emission tests invalid? were the tests illegal? I don't get this not allowed to test engine emissions on veg thing? Incidentally al my veg oil cars display a much lower emissions score on veg than on diesel.

When used as a fuel the customs people must be satisfied. They are
the rules over this side, I dunno what the law in the UK is on that.

I am sure many dont care about the law, or the customs man. I am
posting this as a heads up.

Mark

> Is Veg oil not available in every shot and supermarket throughout
the world
> and also in the UK it is approx 50% the cost.
>
>
>
> That's just the new stuff I am talking about.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Andy Mahoney
>
> www.homebrewpower.co.uk
>
>
>
> From: Lister_CSOG@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:Lister_CSOG@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf Of marksmbx
> Sent: 07 October 2006 11:06
> To: Lister_CSOG@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Lister_CSOG] Re: OT: Indian Petter Engines
>
>
>
> Mark,
>
> I am designing controls for these people and not selling their
> product. It is not something I see myself getting involved with,
the
> market is not there for it yet I believe i.e veg oil powered
gensets.
>
> Industry tells you what sells and when I see veg oil powered
gensets
> on building sites and in farmers sheds, veg oil will then be a
runner
> for the masses. Until then agri diesel will power all these
> commercially sold gensets. Veg oil will have to be widely available
> to purchase before people will buy such gensets. When the local
> garage have it from a pump, then your market exists.
>
> rant/
>
> Even if someone were to design or import any diesel genset with a
> view to selling within the EU, it has a long line of redtape and
> compliance to go through. Noise emissions, electrical CE testing,
> exhaust emissions, Machinery Directives and perhaps health & safety
> aspects. All great fun if your into that sort of thing. Could hit 5
> figures for the tests and then you must also have some mechanism to
> ensure your product stays within the guidlines too. That could mean
> for example an exhaust and filter requiring a change every x hours
or
> once a year.
>
> A registry is maintained with every genset sold within the EU. If
you
> build one and sell it or import and sell, its details must be sent
to
> the desigated authority in the country of sale responsible for
> maintaining the database. If you sell in more than one country,
then
> you must send the details to that countries authority too. There is
> no single point of contact for the entire EU for this, yes I know
its
> silly.
>
> You cannot conduct exhaust emissions while running on veg oil, it
is
> illegal to do so. The testing must be conducted on pump diesel fuel
> only.
>
> There is more to this, but the above is a taster for those feeling
> brave.
>
> end rant/
>
> I spoke with several people off list regarding the Indian petter
type
> engine as a more suitable prime mover. Sure they will work fine,
but
> in their current guise they will never pass exhaust emissions
testing
> and I do not see a way of filtering so they can comply. The engines
> need more work before they are saleable in the EU and probably the
US
> too.
>
> When you run the numbers on these engines and replace the starter
> motor and alternator with better quality local items, which are
> cheaper here, amazing as it sounds!.....then replace the exhaust
for
> a proper silencer, add on some oil filtration, you are not far off
> the cost of a genuine Lister Petter diesel engine that has all
> certifications and high quality build. Your local dealer will also
> carry spares negating the need to keep a stock yourself.
>
> It hasnt been done already for good reason, plenty importers look
at
> India and China for product. If there was money to be made and the
> right product there, we would seen it for sale with one of these
> engines in it.
>
> India has good engines too, the only real high quality ones I saw
> were made by Kirloskar. They even quote a rebuild time in their
> product guides, thats what I want to see when I look at any new
> engine. Germany has a good share of engines from Kirloskar, no
> problems with them and excellent performance/life.
>
> I dont wish to sound like I am slating the Indians, they are
catering
> for their own home market and the likes of Africa who do not demand
> the same quality we do. What they sell fits their markets fine, it
is
> driven by price.
>
> Us westerners are a pain for Indian manufacturers and we demand
more
> than they are accustomed to offering. We buy much less than their
> main customers and building one higher quality engine in a sea of
> regular builds is no easy task for any manufacturer.
>
> You could buy the parts and build it yourself to ensure the casting
> sand does not become a problem. But you'll have to measure each and
> every part to ensure it is within tolernace and it has been
finished
> correctly. There is much time in that.
>
> Have you gone off the idea to supply veg oil CS powered gensets?
>
> Mark
>
> > Given the following.......
> >
> > "I have signed an NDA with one Chinese Co involved with diesel
> genset
> > production, I cant reveal all."
> >
> > Will we be able to buy good chinese gensets (from you you) in the
> near
> > future?
> > Will they be good at running on vegoil?
> >
>

-- All the BestTim from Tang

It is never too late to have a happy childhood.

marksmbx

Hi Tim, The emissions testing documentation for new engine certification for introduction in the EU market place says the emissions testing must be conducted

Message 8 of 16
, Oct 7, 2006

0 Attachment

Hi Tim,

The emissions testing documentation for new engine certification for
introduction in the EU market place says the emissions testing must
be conducted on conventional diesel fuel. The use of veg oil is
expressly forbidden!

Read 'new engine certification' Tim. I do not know if the fuel is
defined for NCT/DOE testing subsequent to an engine's legal
introduction.

All diesel engines ran on veg oil I saw had impressive test reults.
There is an unwritten and interesting thread in the documentation if
you can spot it.

Keep us posted on your cold starting on veg oil as the weather gets
colder Tim. I am keenly interested in that.

Mark

> My veg oil cars have all had their emissions tested on veg oil

since 1999 in

> their NCT's (GB users read MOT here). Are these emission tests

invalid? were

> the tests illegal? I don't get this not allowed to test engine

emissions on

> veg thing? Incidentally al my veg oil cars display a much lower

emissions

> score on veg than on diesel.
>
> Tim
>
> On 10/7/06, marksmbx <marksmbx@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Andy,
> >
> > When used as a fuel the customs people must be satisfied. They are
> > the rules over this side, I dunno what the law in the UK is on

that.

> >
> > I am sure many dont care about the law, or the customs man. I am
> > posting this as a heads up.
> >
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > > Is Veg oil not available in every shot and supermarket

> > > Behalf Of marksmbx
> > > Sent: 07 October 2006 11:06
> > > To: Lister_CSOG@yahoogroups.com <Lister_CSOG%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Subject: [Lister_CSOG] Re: OT: Indian Petter Engines
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Mark,
> > >
> > > I am designing controls for these people and not selling their
> > > product. It is not something I see myself getting involved with,
> > the
> > > market is not there for it yet I believe i.e veg oil powered
> > gensets.
> > >
> > > Industry tells you what sells and when I see veg oil powered
> > gensets
> > > on building sites and in farmers sheds, veg oil will then be a
> > runner
> > > for the masses. Until then agri diesel will power all these
> > > commercially sold gensets. Veg oil will have to be widely

available

> > > to purchase before people will buy such gensets. When the local
> > > garage have it from a pump, then your market exists.
> > >
> > > rant/
> > >
> > > Even if someone were to design or import any diesel genset with

a

> > > view to selling within the EU, it has a long line of redtape and
> > > compliance to go through. Noise emissions, electrical CE

testing,

> > > exhaust emissions, Machinery Directives and perhaps health &

safety

> > > aspects. All great fun if your into that sort of thing. Could

hit 5

> > > figures for the tests and then you must also have some

mechanism to

> > > ensure your product stays within the guidlines too. That could

mean

> > > for example an exhaust and filter requiring a change every x

hours

> > or
> > > once a year.
> > >
> > > A registry is maintained with every genset sold within the EU.

If

> > you
> > > build one and sell it or import and sell, its details must be

sent

> > to
> > > the desigated authority in the country of sale responsible for
> > > maintaining the database. If you sell in more than one country,
> > then
> > > you must send the details to that countries authority too.

> > is
> > > illegal to do so. The testing must be conducted on pump diesel

fuel

> > > only.
> > >
> > > There is more to this, but the above is a taster for those

feeling

> > > brave.
> > >
> > > end rant/
> > >
> > > I spoke with several people off list regarding the Indian petter
> > type
> > > engine as a more suitable prime mover. Sure they will work fine,
> > but
> > > in their current guise they will never pass exhaust emissions
> > testing
> > > and I do not see a way of filtering so they can comply. The

engines

> > > need more work before they are saleable in the EU and probably

the

> > US
> > > too.
> > >
> > > When you run the numbers on these engines and replace the

starter

> > > motor and alternator with better quality local items, which are
> > > cheaper here, amazing as it sounds!.....then replace the exhaust
> > for
> > > a proper silencer, add on some oil filtration, you are not far

off

> > > the cost of a genuine Lister Petter diesel engine that has all
> > > certifications and high quality build. Your local dealer will

> > at
> > > India and China for product. If there was money to be made and

the

> > > right product there, we would seen it for sale with one of these
> > > engines in it.
> > >
> > > India has good engines too, the only real high quality ones I

saw

> > > were made by Kirloskar. They even quote a rebuild time in their
> > > product guides, thats what I want to see when I look at any new
> > > engine. Germany has a good share of engines from Kirloskar, no
> > > problems with them and excellent performance/life.
> > >
> > > I dont wish to sound like I am slating the Indians, they are
> > catering
> > > for their own home market and the likes of Africa who do not

demand

> > > the same quality we do. What they sell fits their markets fine,

it

> > is
> > > driven by price.
> > >
> > > Us westerners are a pain for Indian manufacturers and we demand
> > more
> > > than they are accustomed to offering. We buy much less than

their

> > > main customers and building one higher quality engine in a sea

of

> > > regular builds is no easy task for any manufacturer.
> > >
> > > You could buy the parts and build it yourself to ensure the

casting

> > > sand does not become a problem. But you'll have to measure each

and

> > > every part to ensure it is within tolernace and it has been
> > finished
> > > correctly. There is much time in that.
> > >
> > > Have you gone off the idea to supply veg oil CS powered gensets?
> > >
> > > Mark
> > >
> > > > Given the following.......
> > > >
> > > > "I have signed an NDA with one Chinese Co involved with diesel
> > > genset
> > > > production, I cant reveal all."
> > > >
> > > > Will we be able to buy good chinese gensets (from you you) in

the

> > > near
> > > > future?
> > > > Will they be good at running on vegoil?
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> All the Best
> Tim from Tang
>
> It is never too late to have a happy childhood.
>

Darald Bantel

Here in Alberta Canada the tax is ONLY for on road use. For stationary and off road equipment (read most industrial equipment) there is no tax. Darald

Message 9 of 16
, Oct 7, 2006

0 Attachment

Here in Alberta Canada the tax is ONLY for on road use. For stationary
and off road equipment (read most industrial equipment) there is no tax.

Darald

On Sat, 2006-10-07 at 12:53 +0000, marksmbx wrote:
> Hi Andy,
>
>
> When used as a fuel the customs people must be satisfied. They are
> the rules over this side, I dunno what the law in the UK is on that.
>
> I am sure many dont care about the law, or the customs man. I am
> posting this as a heads up.
>
> Mark
>
> > Is Veg oil not available in every shot and supermarket throughout
> the world
> > and also in the UK it is approx 50% the cost.
> >
> >
> >
> > That's just the new stuff I am talking about.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Andy Mahoney
> >
> > www.homebrewpower.co.uk
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Lister_CSOG@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Lister_CSOG@yahoogroups.com] On
> > Behalf Of marksmbx
> > Sent: 07 October 2006 11:06
> > To: Lister_CSOG@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [Lister_CSOG] Re: OT: Indian Petter Engines
> >
> >
> >
> > Mark,
> >
> > I am designing controls for these people and not selling their
> > product. It is not something I see myself getting involved with,
> the
> > market is not there for it yet I believe i.e veg oil powered
> gensets.
> >
> > Industry tells you what sells and when I see veg oil powered
> gensets
> > on building sites and in farmers sheds, veg oil will then be a
> runner
> > for the masses. Until then agri diesel will power all these
> > commercially sold gensets. Veg oil will have to be widely available
> > to purchase before people will buy such gensets. When the local
> > garage have it from a pump, then your market exists.
> >
> > rant/
> >
> > Even if someone were to design or import any diesel genset with a
> > view to selling within the EU, it has a long line of redtape and
> > compliance to go through. Noise emissions, electrical CE testing,
> > exhaust emissions, Machinery Directives and perhaps health & safety
> > aspects. All great fun if your into that sort of thing. Could hit 5
> > figures for the tests and then you must also have some mechanism to
> > ensure your product stays within the guidlines too. That could mean
> > for example an exhaust and filter requiring a change every x hours
> or
> > once a year.
> >
> > A registry is maintained with every genset sold within the EU. If
> you
> > build one and sell it or import and sell, its details must be sent
> to
> > the desigated authority in the country of sale responsible for
> > maintaining the database. If you sell in more than one country,
> then
> > you must send the details to that countries authority too. There is
> > no single point of contact for the entire EU for this, yes I know
> its
> > silly.
> >
> > You cannot conduct exhaust emissions while running on veg oil, it
> is
> > illegal to do so. The testing must be conducted on pump diesel fuel
> > only.
> >
> > There is more to this, but the above is a taster for those feeling
> > brave.
> >
> > end rant/
> >
> > I spoke with several people off list regarding the Indian petter
> type
> > engine as a more suitable prime mover. Sure they will work fine,
> but
> > in their current guise they will never pass exhaust emissions
> testing
> > and I do not see a way of filtering so they can comply. The engines
> > need more work before they are saleable in the EU and probably the
> US
> > too.
> >
> > When you run the numbers on these engines and replace the starter
> > motor and alternator with better quality local items, which are
> > cheaper here, amazing as it sounds!.....then replace the exhaust
> for
> > a proper silencer, add on some oil filtration, you are not far off
> > the cost of a genuine Lister Petter diesel engine that has all
> > certifications and high quality build. Your local dealer will also
> > carry spares negating the need to keep a stock yourself.
> >
> > It hasnt been done already for good reason, plenty importers look
> at
> > India and China for product. If there was money to be made and the
> > right product there, we would seen it for sale with one of these
> > engines in it.
> >
> > India has good engines too, the only real high quality ones I saw
> > were made by Kirloskar. They even quote a rebuild time in their
> > product guides, thats what I want to see when I look at any new
> > engine. Germany has a good share of engines from Kirloskar, no
> > problems with them and excellent performance/life.
> >
> > I dont wish to sound like I am slating the Indians, they are
> catering
> > for their own home market and the likes of Africa who do not demand
> > the same quality we do. What they sell fits their markets fine, it
> is
> > driven by price.
> >
> > Us westerners are a pain for Indian manufacturers and we demand
> more
> > than they are accustomed to offering. We buy much less than their
> > main customers and building one higher quality engine in a sea of
> > regular builds is no easy task for any manufacturer.
> >
> > You could buy the parts and build it yourself to ensure the casting
> > sand does not become a problem. But you'll have to measure each and
> > every part to ensure it is within tolernace and it has been
> finished
> > correctly. There is much time in that.
> >
> > Have you gone off the idea to supply veg oil CS powered gensets?
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > > Given the following.......
> > >
> > > "I have signed an NDA with one Chinese Co involved with diesel
> > genset
> > > production, I cant reveal all."
> > >
> > > Will we be able to buy good chinese gensets (from you you) in the
> > near
> > > future?
> > > Will they be good at running on vegoil?
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Tim

Hi Mark, Cold starting at the moment is still relatively easy, I am not supplying the engine with hot oil until it warms up so it is cold starting on cold veg.

Message 10 of 16
, Oct 7, 2006

0 Attachment

Hi Mark,Cold starting at the moment is still relatively easy, I am not supplying the engine with hot oil until it warms up so it is cold starting on cold veg. I am starting at the moment with a gas torch flame over the air intake pipe, I simply remove the air cleaner, and hold the torch over the opening as I crank her, use the bottle of the gas torch to knock out the decompressor, and she starts as quick as you can get the torch back over the air intake, a glow plug would be a lot less hassle, unfortunately I do not have a spare COV plug to machine to take one, and I am unwilling to risk machining the one I have and be left without heat and power in the event of a mishap. Anybody out there with a COV plug to sell/donate?

I also desperately want a couple of spare high pressure injector lines for the veg conversion of the engine. The plan is to fit an aluminium block sandwich (with the hp line in a groove in the centre) to the water pump location in the engine head (the water pump has been removed), this should heat the veg in the high pressure line nicely by conduction when the engine is hot.

For cold starting I will fit a glow plug to the COV plug and a VOW2 glow plug based fuel heater will be added (on top of the HP line sandwich already bolted to the head would probably be best). The VOW 2 model that I will use is the twin chamber model the VOW2 C I think (David says that he will be providing VOW 2's with proper glow plug seats in the future), Both glow plugs will only be energised for cold starting. The primary heated chamber of the vow 2 will be plumbed in just before the ip, the secondary chamber will be plumbed into the wick filter feed. With proper insulation of the al block the heat from the engine head should keep everything tickety boo whilst she is running.

I plan on running a two tank fuel system on my engine, with a startup tank (the original one) containing the very best quality clear waste veg oil that I can get, and a run tank (which also feeds the veg oil boiler) containing gloopy stuff and heated with the heat from either the engine or the veg oil boiler (it's heating coil is in parallel with the coil in my hot water cylinder). Fuel changeover is acomplished with a valve on both tank feeds, and will use two fuel filters. The original wick filter is used for startup fuel, and the run fuel will use a toyota/VW golf car fuel filter (cheap elements) with a coolant powered heating coil around it in an insulated box. The gloopy "run fuel" heating will be accomplished with a pipe in pipe system. There is a primary bag filter in the gloop tank which already feeds the veg oil boiler.

The emissions testing documentation for new engine certification for
introduction in the EU market place says the emissions testing must
be conducted on conventional diesel fuel. The use of veg oil is
expressly forbidden!

Read 'new engine certification' Tim. I do not know if the fuel is
defined for NCT/DOE testing subsequent to an engine's legal
introduction.

All diesel engines ran on veg oil I saw had impressive test reults.
There is an unwritten and interesting thread in the documentation if
you can spot it.

Keep us posted on your cold starting on veg oil as the weather gets
colder Tim. I am keenly interested in that.

> > > Subject: [Lister_CSOG] Re: OT: Indian Petter Engines
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Mark,
> > >
> > > I am designing controls for these people and not selling their
> > > product. It is not something I see myself getting involved with,
> > the
> > > market is not there for it yet I believe i.e veg oil powered
> > gensets.
> > >
> > > Industry tells you what sells and when I see veg oil powered
> > gensets
> > > on building sites and in farmers sheds, veg oil will then be a
> > runner
> > > for the masses. Until then agri diesel will power all these
> > > commercially sold gensets. Veg oil will have to be widely
available
> > > to purchase before people will buy such gensets. When the local
> > > garage have it from a pump, then your market exists.
> > >
> > > rant/
> > >
> > > Even if someone were to design or import any diesel genset with
a
> > > view to selling within the EU, it has a long line of redtape and
> > > compliance to go through. Noise emissions, electrical CE
testing,
> > > exhaust emissions, Machinery Directives and perhaps health &
safety
> > > aspects. All great fun if your into that sort of thing. Could
hit 5
> > > figures for the tests and then you must also have some
mechanism to
> > > ensure your product stays within the guidlines too. That could
mean
> > > for example an exhaust and filter requiring a change every x
hours
> > or
> > > once a year.
> > >
> > > A registry is maintained with every genset sold within the EU.
If
> > you
> > > build one and sell it or import and sell, its details must be
sent
> > to
> > > the desigated authority in the country of sale responsible for
> > > maintaining the database. If you sell in more than one country,
> > then
> > > you must send the details to that countries authority too.
There is
> > > no single point of contact for the entire EU for this, yes I
know
> > its
> > > silly.
> > >
> > > You cannot conduct exhaust emissions while running on veg oil,
it
> > is
> > > illegal to do so. The testing must be conducted on pump diesel
fuel
> > > only.
> > >
> > > There is more to this, but the above is a taster for those
feeling
> > > brave.
> > >
> > > end rant/
> > >
> > > I spoke with several people off list regarding the Indian petter
> > type
> > > engine as a more suitable prime mover. Sure they will work fine,
> > but
> > > in their current guise they will never pass exhaust emissions
> > testing
> > > and I do not see a way of filtering so they can comply. The
engines
> > > need more work before they are saleable in the EU and probably
the
> > US
> > > too.
> > >
> > > When you run the numbers on these engines and replace the
starter
> > > motor and alternator with better quality local items, which are
> > > cheaper here, amazing as it sounds!.....then replace the exhaust
> > for
> > > a proper silencer, add on some oil filtration, you are not far
off
> > > the cost of a genuine Lister Petter diesel engine that has all
> > > certifications and high quality build. Your local dealer will
also
> > > carry spares negating the need to keep a stock yourself.
> > >
> > > It hasnt been done already for good reason, plenty importers
look
> > at
> > > India and China for product. If there was money to be made and
the
> > > right product there, we would seen it for sale with one of these
> > > engines in it.
> > >
> > > India has good engines too, the only real high quality ones I
saw
> > > were made by Kirloskar. They even quote a rebuild time in their
> > > product guides, thats what I want to see when I look at any new
> > > engine. Germany has a good share of engines from Kirloskar, no
> > > problems with them and excellent performance/life.
> > >
> > > I dont wish to sound like I am slating the Indians, they are
> > catering
> > > for their own home market and the likes of Africa who do not
demand
> > > the same quality we do. What they sell fits their markets fine,
it
> > is
> > > driven by price.
> > >
> > > Us westerners are a pain for Indian manufacturers and we demand
> > more
> > > than they are accustomed to offering. We buy much less than
their
> > > main customers and building one higher quality engine in a sea
of
> > > regular builds is no easy task for any manufacturer.
> > >
> > > You could buy the parts and build it yourself to ensure the
casting
> > > sand does not become a problem. But you'll have to measure each
and
> > > every part to ensure it is within tolernace and it has been
> > finished
> > > correctly. There is much time in that.
> > >
> > > Have you gone off the idea to supply veg oil CS powered gensets?
> > >
> > > Mark
> > >
> > > > Given the following.......
> > > >
> > > > "I have signed an NDA with one Chinese Co involved with diesel
> > > genset
> > > > production, I cant reveal all."
> > > >
> > > > Will we be able to buy good chinese gensets (from you you) in
the
> > > near
> > > > future?
> > > > Will they be good at running on vegoil?
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>

> --
> All the Best
> Tim from Tang
>
> It is never too late to have a happy childhood.
>

-- All the BestTim from Tang

It is never too late to have a happy childhood.

marksmbx

Hi Tim, I am surprised that at the relatively warm temps we still have, you need heat to start the veg oil. Didnt you have an old Zetor tractor

Message 11 of 16
, Oct 7, 2006

0 Attachment

Hi Tim,

I am surprised that at the relatively warm temps we still have, you
need heat to start the veg oil.

Didnt you have an old Zetor tractor there?....extract glow plug fella!

If you havent got one there, go to the scrappie and look for a diesel
engine and take one or two out. There is a threaded portion you will
have to grab hold of and a draw hammer works well for that. The type
of thing some panel beaters use to pull out stubborn dents. I do not
know if draw hammer is the correct name, it is what I always heard
them called.

When you get your alu block mounted, build a cardboard frame around
it and leave say a 1 inch gap all round, hold the cardboard together
with tape. Then get a can of expanding foam and start filling. Let it
all get hard and take of the cardboard. The added insulation will pay
dividens. Insulate the fuel lines and filter if you can with pipe
insualtion or fiberglass.

BTW I like gloopy word, very descriptive and easy to visualise. The
only gloop I had was waste engine oil, its a bugger to filter right.
I am curious how this will go this coming winter now that I have a CS
running again and indoors (workshop), such luxury. It is in there to
give me light while the landie is worked on over the winter and keep
my arse warm while cursing under the rover.

Mark

> Cold starting at the moment is still relatively easy, I am not

supplying the

> engine with hot oil until it warms up so it is cold starting on

cold veg. I

> am starting at the moment with a gas torch flame over the air

intake pipe, I

> simply remove the air cleaner, and hold the torch over the opening

as I

> crank her, use the bottle of the gas torch to knock out the

decompressor,

> and she starts as quick as you can get the torch back over the air

intake, a

> glow plug would be a lot less hassle, unfortunately I do not have a

spare

> COV plug to machine to take one, and I am unwilling to risk

machining the

> one I have and be left without heat and power in the event of a

mishap.

> Anybody out there with a COV plug to sell/donate?
>
> I also desperately want a couple of spare high pressure injector

lines for

> the veg conversion of the engine. The plan is to fit an aluminium

block

> sandwich (with the hp line in a groove in the centre) to the water

pump

> location in the engine head (the water pump has been removed), this

should

> heat the veg in the high pressure line nicely by conduction when

the engine

> is hot.
>
> For cold starting I will fit a glow plug to the COV plug and a VOW2

glow

> plug based fuel heater will be added (on top of the HP line

sandwich already

> bolted to the head would probably be best). The VOW 2 model that I

will use

> is the twin chamber model the VOW2 C I think (David says that he

will be

> providing VOW 2's with proper glow plug seats in the future), Both

glow

> plugs will only be energised for cold starting. The primary heated

chamber

> of the vow 2 will be plumbed in just before the ip, the secondary

chamber

> will be plumbed into the wick filter feed. With proper insulation

of the al

> block the heat from the engine head should keep everything tickety

boo

> whilst she is running.
>
> I plan on running a two tank fuel system on my engine, with a

startup tank

> (the original one) containing the very best quality clear waste veg

oil that

> I can get, and a run tank (which also feeds the veg oil boiler)

containing

> gloopy stuff and heated with the heat from either the engine or the

veg oil

> boiler (it's heating coil is in parallel with the coil in my hot

water

> cylinder). Fuel changeover is acomplished with a valve on both tank

feeds,

> and will use two fuel filters. The original wick filter is used for

startup

> fuel, and the run fuel will use a toyota/VW golf car fuel filter

(cheap

> elements) with a coolant powered heating coil around it in an

insulated box.

> The gloopy "run fuel" heating will be accomplished with a pipe in

pipe

> system. There is a primary bag filter in the gloop tank which

already feeds

> the veg oil boiler.

Tim

Hi Mark, There is no problem with a glow plug, I have several kicking around, It is just that I am reluctant to machine the COV plug that is fitted to my

Message 12 of 16
, Oct 7, 2006

0 Attachment

Hi Mark,There is no problem with a glow plug, I have several kicking around, It is just that I am reluctant to machine the COV plug that is fitted to my engine already in case I mess it up. I already rely on the machine to provide our power and to heat the fuel oil tank filter system for the veg fuel for the veg oil boilers. I am hoping that my local diesel engine spares crowd will be able to make me the custom high pressure fuel line that I need to make the ally block on the block idea work properly. I too was surprised that she would not start the first morning that I tried and failed. I would reckon that about 12-15 deg C is the bottom temp for cold starting these engines on veg without aid.

I am surprised that at the relatively warm temps we still have, you
need heat to start the veg oil.

Didnt you have an old Zetor tractor there?....extract glow plug fella!

If you havent got one there, go to the scrappie and look for a diesel
engine and take one or two out. There is a threaded portion you will
have to grab hold of and a draw hammer works well for that. The type
of thing some panel beaters use to pull out stubborn dents. I do not
know if draw hammer is the correct name, it is what I always heard
them called.

When you get your alu block mounted, build a cardboard frame around
it and leave say a 1 inch gap all round, hold the cardboard together
with tape. Then get a can of expanding foam and start filling. Let it
all get hard and take of the cardboard. The added insulation will pay
dividens. Insulate the fuel lines and filter if you can with pipe
insualtion or fiberglass.

BTW I like gloopy word, very descriptive and easy to visualise. The
only gloop I had was waste engine oil, its a bugger to filter right.
I am curious how this will go this coming winter now that I have a CS
running again and indoors (workshop), such luxury. It is in there to
give me light while the landie is worked on over the winter and keep
my arse warm while cursing under the rover.

Mark

> Cold starting at the moment is still relatively easy, I am not
supplying the
> engine with hot oil until it warms up so it is cold starting on
cold veg. I
> am starting at the moment with a gas torch flame over the air
intake pipe, I
> simply remove the air cleaner, and hold the torch over the opening
as I
> crank her, use the bottle of the gas torch to knock out the
decompressor,
> and she starts as quick as you can get the torch back over the air
intake, a
> glow plug would be a lot less hassle, unfortunately I do not have a
spare
> COV plug to machine to take one, and I am unwilling to risk
machining the
> one I have and be left without heat and power in the event of a
mishap.
> Anybody out there with a COV plug to sell/donate?
>
> I also desperately want a couple of spare high pressure injector
lines for
> the veg conversion of the engine. The plan is to fit an aluminium
block
> sandwich (with the hp line in a groove in the centre) to the water
pump
> location in the engine head (the water pump has been removed), this
should
> heat the veg in the high pressure line nicely by conduction when
the engine
> is hot.
>
> For cold starting I will fit a glow plug to the COV plug and a VOW2
glow
> plug based fuel heater will be added (on top of the HP line
sandwich already
> bolted to the head would probably be best). The VOW 2 model that I
will use
> is the twin chamber model the VOW2 C I think (David says that he
will be
> providing VOW 2's with proper glow plug seats in the future), Both
glow
> plugs will only be energised for cold starting. The primary heated
chamber
> of the vow 2 will be plumbed in just before the ip, the secondary
chamber
> will be plumbed into the wick filter feed. With proper insulation
of the al
> block the heat from the engine head should keep everything tickety
boo
> whilst she is running.
>
> I plan on running a two tank fuel system on my engine, with a
startup tank
> (the original one) containing the very best quality clear waste veg
oil that
> I can get, and a run tank (which also feeds the veg oil boiler)
containing
> gloopy stuff and heated with the heat from either the engine or the
veg oil
> boiler (it's heating coil is in parallel with the coil in my hot
water
> cylinder). Fuel changeover is acomplished with a valve on both tank
feeds,
> and will use two fuel filters. The original wick filter is used for
startup
> fuel, and the run fuel will use a toyota/VW golf car fuel filter
(cheap
> elements) with a coolant powered heating coil around it in an
insulated box.
> The gloopy "run fuel" heating will be accomplished with a pipe in
pipe
> system. There is a primary bag filter in the gloop tank which
already feeds
> the veg oil boiler.

-- All the BestTim from Tang

It is never too late to have a happy childhood.

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