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I know I just sparked a mega-argument with my Carle post. But I'm sure this'll start a bigger one.

Does anyone agree with me that Hartnell is widely overpaid? I mean, I'd love him back after next season, but more along the lines of 3M and Not closer to the 5-6M he's def gonna get. He prob won't sign for that but c'mon. He's got a wicked shot and his one-timers from the hashes are perfect, i'll give him that. But other than that, what does he do? He's improved his passing from last season definitely, but he can't skate, play special teams, he rivals my grandfather's athleticism, he's horrible along the boards, and in the corners and his stick-minors get me the most. I can't see paying him top-dollar for doing one thing well.

Mind you, I'm just trying to get everyone's minds off this season. Let's keep moving forward.

Hartnell has one more year of a 4.2 mill cap hit.....for what he did this year that's a good value. No need to worry about his NEXT contract yet.....Flyers can wait and see what happens next year. If he continues to put up strong numbers he'll bet set for a good contract...if he falls backwards then they can let him walk at the end of next year. At this point with combination of physical play and goals he put up he's hard to replace. IMO

Hahaha. People just clearly get entranced in the idea that they've been watching Carle for years now, and although pretty consistent, he's not the perfect all-around, do-it-all, kind of defenseman people dream of. Their convinced there's someone out there that can do it better.

He can pass, shine defensively(sometimes), PP, PK. I'd just like to see him trust his shot more. People forget how much he does, because he's almost so -dare I say- "Kimmo-esque", in how subtle he plays.

Over the past two years... Suter has had close too as many hits and turnover's as Matt. Suter's been playing with arguably with the best Dman in the league as his partner and Carle's been lugging around MAB for half the year.

And btw, the dude is INSANELY durable.

There's no room for logic here. What we need to do is go out and wildly overpay Suter because he isn't Matt Carle. Then, when Suter performs at pretty much the exact same level, we need to gush over how awesome and not Matt Carle-y he is.

OK...first on defense.....for Homer to NOT make a significant change he has to be awfully convinced that both Mez and Carle will regain the effectiveness that had a year ago. In my opinion I think both guys are good and both are capable, but to me seemed to take a step back from the previous year.

Let's be honest here about Bartulis, MAB and the cast of 6th d-men candidates that are in house. As much as Bart is the name that gets tossed around..he's been off the map long enough that we dont' really know what he's going to bring to fill that spot. And MAB?....let's not forget that a year ago he was still bouncing around in the ECHL so expecting him to step in and be that guy is a bit of a reach for me......

and what we've seen here is that perhaps Carle and Mez are good....but probably not good enough to carry a rookie and make a pairing good enough for what we need.

I think Homer's biggest question is............do Carle or Mez mesh well enough with Kimmo to produce a rock solid pairing and if so , is the other one capable of carrying the third pairing? If all that is a yes then we would try to sign Carle to a reasonable NON cap killing deal and let the rooks battle out for the 6th spot while we wait out Prongers long term status...

I know I just sparked a mega-argument with my Carle post. But I'm sure this'll start a bigger one.

Does anyone agree with me that Hartnell is widely overpaid? I mean, I'd love him back after next season, but more along the lines of 3M and Not closer to the 5-6M he's def gonna get. He prob won't sign for that but c'mon. He's got a wicked shot and his one-timers from the hashes are perfect, i'll give him that. But other than that, what does he do? He's improved his passing from last season definitely, but he can't skate, play special teams, he rivals my grandfather's athleticism, he's horrible along the boards, and in the corners and his stick-minors get me the most. I can't see paying him top-dollar for doing one thing well.

Mind you, I'm just trying to get everyone's minds off this season. Let's keep moving forward.

Everyone was with you at the beginning of the year, we were all but calling for his head. His game expanded this year for sure; he grabbed a leadership role, his passing got better and he took far fewer bad penalties than in the past, but with that said, I still think he makes too much for what he brings to the team.

Matt Carle...There were reasons he was traded from San Jose (along with Ty Wishart, a 1st and a 4th for Dan Boyle and Brad Lukowich) and Tampa Bay (with a 3rd rounder for Steve Downie, Steve Eminger, and a 4th)...I just think he was paired with a stronger defensive partner that masked his deficiencies in the defensive zone...

Pronger made Carle look like an All-Star, but having a future Hall of Famer playing alongside you can make anyone look like an All-Star....it's when you're relied on to be the main guy on a pairing that you show your worth...and Matt Carle isn't doing that consistently enough on a game by game basis...and he's been in the league long enough that he should be able to....

The Briere situation.............I get that people want him around for his points in the playoffs, but at the same time.....if a couple teams win 3 more games next year and we lose 3 we could be out of a playoff spot. 82 games is a long time to wait for a guy to start earning that big of a paycheck.

That said....if we can make the cap work I'm good with keeping Briere. I don't want to ship him out....but just because he's not been consistent enough in setting the world on fire during the season with injuries and such and the size of his cap hit......he's the guy we would NEED to move if there is a financial reason to do so. Plus with G, Schenn and Couts up the middle we're fine there.

Jagr is a very tough call......he looked like a rockstar for half the season and everyone was fawning over him to sign an extension and then seemed to fade the rest of the way. That's a concern.........perhaps we just sit briere the first half of the season and let Jags play and then switch them the second half and the playoffs lol

I just think from a practical perspective that Jagr only comes back if Giroux lobbies Lavi and Homer for one more year with him.....but truthfully I think it's an either/or situation for Briere and Jagr...only one will be back but not both......

for all the debate about his best spot though..with G, Schenn and Couts in the mix now this coming year is the year that Briere has to accept playing the wing.

Don't think we'll see any significant changes on offense this year......I think pretty much everyone stays with the exception of either Jagr or Briere..other than that we're gonna go with the same group under the idea that both schenn and couturier will be even better next year and help minimize the point loss of whichever of those two guys goes.

I think you'll see Rinaldo and Sestito back as the wingers on the fourth line.....Lavi seems to like both of those guys and for the occassional bad penalty those two do bring speed and physical presence to our lineup. Wellwood also looks like he could take a spot on that 3rd or 4th line.

The Briere situation.............I get that people want him around for his points in the playoffs, but at the same time.....if a couple teams win 3 more games next year and we lose 3 we could be out of a playoff spot. 82 games is a long time to wait for a guy to start earning that big of a paycheck.

That said....if we can make the cap work I'm good with keeping Briere. I don't want to ship him out....but just because he's not been consistent enough in setting the world on fire during the season with injuries and such and the size of his cap hit......he's the guy we would NEED to move if there is a financial reason to do so. Plus with G, Schenn and Couts up the middle we're fine there.

Jagr is a very tough call......he looked like a rockstar for half the season and everyone was fawning over him to sign an extension and then seemed to fade the rest of the way. That's a concern.........perhaps we just sit briere the first half of the season and let Jags play and then switch them the second half and the playoffs lol

I just think from a practical perspective that Jagr only comes back if Giroux lobbies Lavi and Homer for one more year with him.....but truthfully I think it's an either/or situation for Briere and Jagr...only one will be back but not both......

for all the debate about his best spot though..with G, Schenn and Couts in the mix now this coming year is the year that Briere has to accept playing the wing.

Agreed. Briere can stay if there is no financial need to dump his salary and he is willing to play wing. Schenn and Couts need to play center and neither can play 4th line minutes and continue to develop. They need to play 2 and 3rd line.

I think you can all but book it that Shelley will retire in the off season......but he will stay with the organization as some sort of scout or coach at one of the levels. This way we can still pay him as a favor to get his cap hit off our books.

Other than that, Bryz will be back so we need to find something for Bob...either deal him is someone is interested or find a way to get him in the minors and let him play a full season down there. Sign a vet back up on the cheap and give Bryz the big workload out of the gate so the roles are clearly defined.

With minimal changes on offense needed...homer will find away to sure up the defense by adding at least ONE key pieces...we will have the money to do that at least...

JVR becomes the guy on the hot seat then......got the contract, got the potential.....he's probably the guy that makes or breaks how potent the offense is next year. He has to step up and really break out after this season.

I am with you on the first two points although Carle's contract is up and he will get a lot of interest from teams looking for an offensive minded puck moving defenseman so I dont think you need a sucker.

I disagree on the 3rd point. Bobrovsky will have very little trade value at this point and I still think he has a ton of potential but needs playing time. Unless we need the cap space I would rather hold on to him because if we dump him I think we look back in 5 years and kick ourselves.

Lets not forget Bob is only 23 while Bryz is 31. When Bob hits his prime Bryz is 36 and probably struggling to hang on to a starting role.

I think you can all but book it that Shelley will retire in the off season......but he will stay with the organization as some sort of scout or coach at one of the levels. This way we can still pay him as a favor to get his cap hit off our books.

Other than that, Bryz will be back so we need to find something for Bob...either deal him is someone is interested or find a way to get him in the minors and let him play a full season down there. Sign a vet back up on the cheap and give Bryz the big workload out of the gate so the roles are clearly defined.

With minimal changes on offense needed...homer will find away to sure up the defense by adding at least ONE key pieces...we will have the money to do that at least...

JVR becomes the guy on the hot seat then......got the contract, got the potential.....he's probably the guy that makes or breaks how potent the offense is next year. He has to step up and really break out after this season.

Again JVR is another guy I dont see us trading because after 2 injuries and a subpar year we wont get anywhere near enough value to give up on his potential.

Matt Carle...There were reasons he was traded from San Jose (along with Ty Wishart, a 1st and a 4th for Dan Boyle and Brad Lukowich) and Tampa Bay (with a 3rd rounder for Steve Downie, Steve Eminger, and a 4th)...I just think he was paired with a stronger defensive partner that masked his deficiencies in the defensive zone...

Pronger made Carle look like an All-Star, but having a future Hall of Famer playing alongside you can make anyone look like an All-Star....it's when you're relied on to be the main guy on a pairing that you show your worth...and Matt Carle isn't doing that consistently enough on a game by game basis...and he's been in the league long enough that he should be able to....

Carle isn't an all-star. I think we can all agree on that, but you more or less said he was solely seen as a good player because he was paired with Pronger. I disagree, I think if he were the one paired with Grossmann instead of Coburn, that defensive pairing doesn't lose much defensively except for size, and gets better offensively. I'm not trying to take anything away from Coburn because I think he had a really good season, I just think Grossmann being the "stay at home defenseman" helped him a lot. I'll agree that Carle won't cover up another player's deficiencies, but he isn't going to make whoever he is playing with worse. He's a strong, above-average offensive defenseman, that will also block shots, and make the hits he needs to make. He can, and should get a contract similar to what the Flyers gave Coburn, but I could see someone throwing 5+ million at him.

Originally Posted by Hatch

The Briere situation.............I get that people want him around for his points in the playoffs, but at the same time.....if a couple teams win 3 more games next year and we lose 3 we could be out of a playoff spot. 82 games is a long time to wait for a guy to start earning that big of a paycheck.

First, you're still looking at 97 points in that situation, so you may drop a few spots, but that's usually enough to get into the playoffs. I really don't see Briere going another 20+ games without a goal again either, and this team is deep enough that he doesn't have to be the man to win those games; right now that's Giroux's job.

Second, the way that Briere plays in the playoffs certainly allows him to have a "slow" regular season. Keeping salaries, and cap hits the same, I'd rather see another season exactly like this one from Briere, than seeing Hartnell have the exact same season he just had. Maybe that seems ridiculous because Hartnell easily had his best regular season of his career, but he was completely invisible come April.

That said....if we can make the cap work I'm good with keeping Briere. I don't want to ship him out....but just because he's not been consistent enough in setting the world on fire during the season with injuries and such and the size of his cap hit......he's the guy we would NEED to move if there is a financial reason to do so. Plus with G, Schenn and Couts up the middle we're fine there.

What if Schenn makes a permanent, or at least a long-term move to wing? I think that would be fine. Put him on the wing with either G or Couturier and see what happens. Either way, I think Briere's minutes drop (3rd line) and Couturier's minutes increase (2nd line).

Jagr is a very tough call......he looked like a rockstar for half the season and everyone was fawning over him to sign an extension and then seemed to fade the rest of the way. That's a concern.........perhaps we just sit briere the first half of the season and let Jags play and then switch them the second half and the playoffs lol

I just think from a practical perspective that Jagr only comes back if Giroux lobbies Lavi and Homer for one more year with him.....but truthfully I think it's an either/or situation for Briere and Jagr...only one will be back but not both......

for all the debate about his best spot though..with G, Schenn and Couts in the mix now this coming year is the year that Briere has to accept playing the wing.

Could not agree more with the bold, or maybe if Jagr is willing to come back at significantly less than he made this year. If he does come back I could see Lavi just sitting him for 20 or so games to keep his legs fresh for the playoffs.