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It is also possible that none of the message bottles, or maybe not even the forgeries, ever had any fantasy scenes inside them. There was this thing Beatrice said (paraphrased): "Slowly the barrier around Rokkenjima gets stronger and more and more demons will be able to enter.", or something of that kind. And then from EP6 on, the talk about a "reader" that can bring falsehoods into the storytelling.

I think what we see in the story is just the interpretation of someone from 1998+ (Yukari, Tohya, Ikuko or others). The "reader" may change at some points though and possibly add their own interpretation or even knowledge into the story (or perhaps there can be multiple readers at once, which explains the "chaotic" nature of EP8). And so while the first story (legend) from our perspective seems to be free of falsehood (which as we know now, isn't), the following stories are more and more magical fantasy stories, that seem to be out of place. (still remember your reaction from the first appearance of a deadly sin's stake at the end of EP1-TP or the first magic battle in EP2?) Perhaps it is just Tohya getting more and more "personally involved" as he recovers his memories, or Ikuko projects herself into Beatrices role more and more, or Yukari gets influenced by the witchhunters'/cultists' theories.

The "meta layers" would be just an extention of this, just with the addition that with higher layer, it becomes closer to reality.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker

Kanon deciding he loves Jessica out of nowhere and sacrificing himself with no prior motivation? Sounds like fanfiction to me...

Yes. This and the "fantasy" scenes seem either like personal interpretation, which can be different for every person, or as you say just pure fanfiction, which is quite the opposite to the personal interpretation, as fanfiction is usually something that fans of a story wish for but think that it will never be done by the author.

Ironically if we go with StrangerKo, then the forgeries of Tohya and Ikuko are nothing more than fanfiction of the message bottles...

EP2 is really an interesting case. It is the intersection between "message bottle" and "forgery". In other words, the themes of the entirety of Umineko and the Shannon/Kanon deal is directly addressed in EP2. I think that EP2 is actually a "forgery" directly based on the message bottle.
Think of it this way: if EP2's message bottle made any mention of Shannon and Kanon's love troubles (the beginning of EP2) then the 1998 characters would have a strong lead of Yasu as the culprit or would at least make special mention of them. Because this does not seem to be the case, I think EP2 is also a forgery in some sense. That is, EP2 is just a "story" built into the events of the second message bottle. EP1 is straight mystery, but since Beatrice/Battler make explicit mention of EP1's events in the later Episodes, maybe EP1 is a forgery too?

This is one of the elements that I see as a huge hint toward Yasuko.

Something that strongly differentiates EP1-2 from EP3+ is the way Meta-Battler interacts with the narrative. Starting in EP3, he witnesses everything that happens on the gameboard and argues with Beatrice about it as it happens, and Beatrice in turn directs the events on the board in response to his arguments. But EP1-2 are totally different from that.

In EP1, Meta-Battler doesn't exist until after the game board story is over, and there are no outright fantasy scenes until Beatrice reconstructs the second twilight with magical stakes during the tea party. In EP2, we do see fantasy scenes, but Meta-Battler apparently doesn't -- we don't hear a peep out of him even when demons and goat butlers start popping out of the woodwork, and later during the first twilight of EP3 he acts as if he's witnessing magic on the game board for the very first time. What we do get, though, is a scene of Beatrice at the very end saying to Battler that she's going to explain how she did everything using magic, and since she's standing next to a living Kinzo at the time, the scene can't be part of the original game board story.

Based on that, I think it's likely that the message bottles underlying EP1-2 don't actually contain any fantasy at all. Instead, Meta-Battler's behavior mirrors how Tohya is reading the text. For EP1, he read it through first and then talked to Ikuko about it. For EP2, she started a back-and-forth with him while he read through the original message bottle, then after he finished she presented him with an augmented version of the story with fantasy scenes. Then EP3 and onward were written with Tohya's active participation, and that's reflected in Meta-Battler's more active role.

Backstory scenes like Shannon's date with George or the culture festival actively clash with the presentation of the message bottles being excerpts from Maria's diary, but if they were tacked on later, we can resolve that inconsistency. But then, how could those scenes be written, if they didn't come from Yasu in 1986? From Tohya? Is it really likely that, with corpses scattered everywhere and the island about to explode, Yasu sat Battler down to tell him all about a random culture festival she went to with Jessica?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renall

You can't merely remove that part, because scenes like Kanon fighting for Jessica and so forth don't make a lot of sense with those bits removed yet are definitely part of the October 4th/5th narrative. So those parts would also have to be removed or changed... meaning that, well, how do we know which parts are added in and which parts were "originally" in the Forgery?

It may be impossible in principle to look at any scene and tell whether it was in the original or not. However, I think we can safely exclude scenes that Meta-Battler should have reacted to, but didn't. And by extension, anything that narratively depends on those scenes is probably also out.

__________________

"Something has fallen on us that falls very seldom on men; perhaps the worst thing that can fall on them. We have found the truth; and the truth makes no sense."

Backstory scenes like Shannon's date with George or the culture festival actively clash with the presentation of the message bottles being excerpts from Maria's diary, but if they were tacked on later, we can resolve that inconsistency.

When was it ever stated that the message bottles originate from Maria's diary? I thought the only thing the diary showed to us, is that "someones" writing in Maria's diary matches with the writing of the message bottle.

When was it ever stated that the message bottles originate from Maria's diary? I thought the only thing the diary showed to us, is that "someones" writing in Maria's diary matches with the writing of the message bottle.

Well, I say "diary", but that may be leaping to conclusions. The EP1 endroll describes it as a "notebook fragment" and it's signed "Maria Ushiromiya". Regardless, if you're going to present a text as being authored by a nine-year-old girl, why would you turn around and fill it with information that girl couldn't possibly have?

__________________

"Something has fallen on us that falls very seldom on men; perhaps the worst thing that can fall on them. We have found the truth; and the truth makes no sense."

It may be impossible in principle to look at any scene and tell whether it was in the original or not. However, I think we can safely exclude scenes that Meta-Battler should have reacted to, but didn't. And by extension, anything that narratively depends on those scenes is probably also out.

What of Kinzo? Essentially every Kinzo scene is magical. Which scenes involving him were there and which, if any, were added? Was the "Natsuhi's heart" scene in Legend or not? Were the scenes of Kinzo mourning Beatrice or not? Was the scene of him tossing his ring to Beatrice or not?

What of Kinzo? Essentially every Kinzo scene is magical. Which scenes involving him were there and which, if any, were added? Was the "Natsuhi's heart" scene in Legend or not? Were the scenes of Kinzo mourning Beatrice or not? Was the scene of him tossing his ring to Beatrice or not?

One thing going on in Legend is that there are lots of false scenes that Piece-Battler thinks happened because some witness that he trusts told him they happened. I think we might see them for the same reason we think we see Meta-Battler getting cornered in EP6, namely that the reader (Tohya/Meta-Battler in EP1 and Ange in EP6) is filling in the blanks based on the available info. That goes for at least a significant number of the Kinzo scenes.

On the other hand, Meta-Battler talks about Kanon's exciting death scene in the tea party, so there's at least one blatantly false, or at least metaphorical, scene that does seem to have been present in the original narrative. So, I'm not sure.

__________________

"Something has fallen on us that falls very seldom on men; perhaps the worst thing that can fall on them. We have found the truth; and the truth makes no sense."

If that's so, however, it means that we have absolutely no idea whether a scene is part of a Forgery/MBS or not. For example, it's not just a layer exclusion in this case, and elements of the pre-October 4th scenes recur in Turn, so it's not just a matter of saying "the scenes where Shannon and Kanon meet Beatrice and discuss love and junk can be excised."

You can't merely remove that part, because scenes like Kanon fighting for Jessica and so forth don't make a lot of sense with those bits removed yet are definitely part of the October 4th/5th narrative. So those parts would also have to be removed or changed... meaning that, well, how do we know which parts are added in and which parts were "originally" in the Forgery?

The only chance to insert them would be to have the forgery structure different from the one we have so that those scenes would be flashbacks or would come up thanks to character dialogues in those 2 days. For example we could have Shannon confess to... let's say George that she broke the mirror due to Beatrice's pushing when she accepted his ring.

Of course an huge problem with the forgeries then would be:

if the forgeries are made to look like Maria's retelling of those two days... how could Maria know about what George and Shannon talked? Or what was said after she was pushed out of Kinzo's study?

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker

So we are going with someone didn't kill Nanjo and then die (likely Kyrie)?

The problem is that Kyrie was clearly witnessed by Battler as death. If I'm not wrong she had a stake clearly stiking in her stomach.

And I say this with regret as I've toyed with the idea Kyrie could be a culprit in EP 3... but the best she might have done is to kill Hideyoshi.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker

Also what is the Jessica room trick someone referred to?

The one about Maria's voice? It's not placed in Jessica's room though. In Ep 7 when she secretly went in the VIP room to prove Beato didn't exist she received a phone call in the middle of the night during which she heard Maria singing.

Maria didn't answer her when she called her and later denied making the call.
The most likely explanation is that Maria's voice had been recordered.

As in EP 1 we get another phonecall with Maria singing I wonder if that time too the same trick was used to give Yasu more time to act.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreyZone

It is also possible that none of the message bottles, or maybe not even the forgeries, ever had any fantasy scenes inside them. There was this thing Beatrice said (paraphrased): "Slowly the barrier around Rokkenjima gets stronger and more and more demons will be able to enter.", or something of that kind. And then from EP6 on, the talk about a "reader" that can bring falsehoods into the storytelling.

Well, considering the tale is being told by Maria she could have written stuffs like Beato turning into butterflies and leaving/entering a room in Ep 1 or turning a smashed candy in a good one in EP 2.

So maybe there was a little magic in the tales... though maybe the giant amount of it in the following episodes was due to the forgerers' interpretation of what Maria wrote.

After all EP 1 presents only the implication it could be magic due to a child insisting it's so and stuffs that can't be explained, it doesn't have the huge magic scenes the other episodes have.

However a forgerer, reading it, might feel allowed to add as much magic as he likes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreyZone

I think what we see in the story is just the interpretation of someone from 1998+ (Yukari, Tohya, Ikuko or others). The "reader" may change at some points though and possibly add their own interpretation or even knowledge into the story (or perhaps there can be multiple readers at once, which explains the "chaotic" nature of EP8). And so while the first story (legend) from our perspective seems to be free of falsehood (which as we know now, isn't), the following stories are more and more magical fantasy stories, that seem to be out of place.

*nods* exactly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renall

What of Kinzo? Essentially every Kinzo scene is magical. Which scenes involving him were there and which, if any, were added? Was the "Natsuhi's heart" scene in Legend or not? Were the scenes of Kinzo mourning Beatrice or not? Was the scene of him tossing his ring to Beatrice or not?

Quote:

"I liked it a lot. Still, if you don't explain that part about the ocean currents a bit more clearly, it might be a little unfair for the reader... Oh, but I thought it was great that you had the foreshadowing with the ring right there at the beginning. ......After I finished, I had to go back to the beginning and slap myself for being so easily tricked. I think that feeling's the best part of a detective novel."

Okay, so the tale Ikuko handed to Tohya might have been something completely different from a Rokkenjim forgery but I was always amused by how Battler mentions things that seems to fit with them, like the currents (which can be a reference to them carrying the message bottles) and, of course, the ring at the beginning (which can refer to the scene of Kinzo passing the title of head to Yasu/Beatrice).

It's likely coincidental though, as it is the fact that Will defended a maid at the beginning of Ep 7...

Quote:

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

One thing going on in Legend is that there are lots of false scenes that Piece-Battler thinks happened because some witness that he trusts told him they happened. I think we might see them for the same reason we think we see Meta-Battler getting cornered in EP6, namely that the reader (Tohya/Meta-Battler in EP1 and Ange in EP6) is filling in the blanks based on the available info. That goes for at least a significant number of the Kinzo scenes.

On the other hand, Meta-Battler talks about Kanon's exciting death scene in the tea party, so there's at least one blatantly false, or at least metaphorical, scene that does seem to have been present in the original narrative. So, I'm not sure.

I need to recheck that part but couldn't be that Battler referred to it in such way because he assumed that's how it happened? Kanon dying while fighting off Beatrice?

Being shot in the stomach and then moving around would most certainly leave a lot of blood everywhere. It would be pretty dishonest of RK07 to have something like this end up being the solution when no clues were really offered in the VN and the only "evidence" of it is in the anime and can be attributed to bad animators.

As even the tips point out, a stake to the stomach isn't that fatal. Even a gunshot wound there wouldn't be that fatal immediately. Besides, I am sure the manga showed her body moving after that.

The common solution for the stake thing is that first a person get shoot, then the stake gets inserted as those stakes aren't really suited to kill.

But let's assume Kyrie was still alive with a stake in her stomach which in the long run will kill her. She would remain there faking to be death while slowly bleeding to death while people cries over her, Rudolf and Nanjo, without no one realizing she's alive and her making no attempt to ask for help just so that later she can get up despite the blood loss, walk till Nanjo without leaving traces of the blood that's seeping out of her and kill him?

I find this rather unlikely.

And in the manga she 'moved' before we see Battler witnessing the scene. in chap 18 she's in the same position as Battler left her in chap 14, her eyes still open, blood still on her and around her and around her mouth and face turned toward the direction from which Battler came.

All this can tell us is that the magic scene and the 'real' scene doesn't match perfectly... though this can be explained with the stake having to move the bodies to stake them comfortably and Ronove cleaning up as Eva ordered him to do so that the scene would match with the epitaph.

Actually now I consider it, Nanjo dies much later than that scene as well. Still, it is unusual that this one and only time Yasu was walking around without a personality...

Though whether the stake was put in later or not, it still wasn't that fatal of a wound. This is either a hint to her shooting Hideyoshi, or some major trolling for meanness sake (e.g. hahaha she died slowly and painfully)

This is actually one point where I wonder about whether that's a screw-up for exactly that reason. Even if we assume that the letter was maneuvered in such a way that Natsuhi was likely to find it first, how could it be known whether or not she'd read it on her own and immediately leave? What if she decided to share it or read it out loud? Also, when did that letter even get written? Does Beatrice carry stationery around?

Well, basically we can say that at this point it doesn't matter whether Natsuhi reads the letter or not, it's another "leave it to chance" game of which Yasu does a lot. The bomb was already set, so Natsuhi will die one way or the other, it's just the final chance for Yasu to maybe get revenge.
Scenarios like these are possible:

Natsuhi doesn't read the letter and later dies in the explosion

Natsuhi reads the letter but ignores it and later dies in the explosion

Natsuhi goes with other people, she is shot and the other people die in the explosion

Somebody else reads the letter and goes, so Yasu has no reason to show herself and everybody dies in the explosion

etc.

Also, the manga for EP8 implied heavily that Yasu was very much torn about her emotions towards people like Natsuhi. On the one hand she wants her to be the mother she never had, but on the other hand hates her for all that she caused (the raging culprit-shadow in one panel was pretty clear on that).

Spoiler for EP8 Manga Panel:

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan

After watching through EP4, I realized that they said that one of the bottles was found on the island, and the other was found at sea later by the fishermen.

Yet, EP1 ends with the bottle being found five years later.

I was a big proponent of Bottles = Episodes, but now this makes the ending to EP1 make no sense whatsoever.

I don't know where you see it not making sense, but maybe I am overlooking something.
It was said in the Endroll part of EP1 that a message bottle was found several years (not 5 years, don't know where you got the number from) after the incident by a fisherman on a nearby island adrift in the sea.

This message bottle was released to the public, by that fisherman, after Eva sold Kinzo's library from Kuwadorian via auction and the interest in strange and occult items from the Ushiromiya household rose. The fisherman probably saw a good way to make money and went public. This could likely have been the bottle that contained EP1.
As a reaction towards this the police also released the bottle they found, which they had probably filed after they had somehow ruled out the likelihood of what they found in their message bottle. Or maybe there was information back then, but nobody actually cared, as Ootsuki said that up until Kinzo's library was released only very few people held interest in the case. This bottle could have been EP2.

So where does it make no sense?

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreyZone

I think what we see in the story is just the interpretation of someone from 1998+ (Yukari, Tohya, Ikuko or others). The "reader" may change at some points though and possibly add their own interpretation or even knowledge into the story (or perhaps there can be multiple readers at once, which explains the "chaotic" nature of EP8).

I am also a proponent of this theory, considering for one the things you already pointed out, but also what was already said in EP1's Endroll, namely that during the occult craze several people started adding their own interpretation to the story found in the message bottle, even adding cruel and fantastical elements to it.

There is also the short exchange between BlackBattler and Ronove in the TIP Forgery No.xxx where upon the question when they had last met Ronove gives a cryptic answer that it should have been Trinity of the Golden Witch but considering that "Lady Bernkastel's gameboard is considered to be the last" (EP7?) they would have to say that this one was the last. Yet on the other hand they remark, no matter when they last met, they still have just met a moment ago.
This also shows that the metaworld may not work under the same logic of time and space as the world of 1998 does. It is merely given "an order" by the way it is regarded by those who give order to that world, which would be the Spectating Witches. This is impossible if the meta was actually part of the actual narrative, because then it would be bound to the respective order it was written in.

I think the meta-level narrative by necessity has to be independent, otherwise the entire concept of the Sea of Fragments and Forgeries and Theatergoing and whatnot don't make a lot of sense. If it's one linear narrative carried through certain Fragments/Forgeries/Stories and going beginning-to-end, then there's no room for those things. Bern implies tons and tons of iterations of the various stories exist, but obviously we don't watch those things. Ronove in the aforementioned Forgery No. XXX mentions Trinity, a story that doesn't exist (at least to us). The notion of "different meta-worlds" makes sense though if you assume it's the swirling chaos of different Readers and different interpretations, and that the existing meta-narrative belongs to some character we're aware of (such as Tohya or Ange).

EDIT: And naturally, that means something like ep7 could quite literally be some other person's meta-world, with Will as their avatar. Bern can be there because Bern can be wherever she wants to be, so that's not an issue. For them to later appear in the ep8 meta-world could mean all sorts of things, but looking strictly at ep7 you could say that information and/or speculation belongs to The Person Behind Will, whoever that is.

So the letter existed. I remember there was a theory going on in the past saying it was possible the letter didn't exist... (I don't remember it well though)

It's nice to know it really existed.

As the person behind the "letter never existed" theory, my reasons were:
1) The only evidence that the letter ever existed was that Maria said so. Maria certainly made some false statements about how Beatrice entered the room; she'd probably make other false statements if Beatrice specifically asked her to. (There are also so some golden butterfly scenes, which are unreliable.)
2) Maria was in a particularly bad position to see Natsuhi take the letter. (Battler would have blocked a good deal of her field of vision, and she would have reflexively focused on Battler (two feet away) instead of Natsuhi (at the back of the room).
3) There's no reason for Beatrice to think that Natsuhi will read the letter herself, and good reason for Beatrice to think that Natsuhi won't; reading the letter requires Natsuhi to temporarily set aside her gun, and Natsuhi's had Battler open and read the previous letters.
4) The letter disappears.

Quote:

We know they went to check because they heard Maria singing... but we don't know if the phonecall came from that phone. It's possible the trick here is similar to the one used with Jessica. Once she left the room and closed it with her key she went to another phone put on a tape Maria's voice singing a song and then did the call. When Battler and Co reached the room and found Maria singing and the phone in such position they didn't suspect the call could have come from another room.

I at one point mentioned that the mansion must have a switchboard; the killer could have faked a call using that (ring Kinzo's room from the switchboard, then connect the parlor to Kinzo's room).

What about the scene when Krauss shows Natsuhi the gold bar? Is that supposed to be real? (I think it's fake, for various reasons.)

I at one point mentioned that the mansion must have a switchboard; the killer could have faked a call using that (ring Kinzo's room from the switchboard, then connect the parlor to Kinzo's room).

Whether a switchboard exists or not, it's interesting to note that the place it would probably be is the servants' quarters, which is on the first floor and, based on vague approximations of the mansion layout, probably near to the entrance hall. No idea if it's on the same side of the building as the parlor (thus, Beatrice wouldn't have to cross the entrance hall) or not (thus, she would), but the basic idea is that after the parlor murders she'd go to the other room and either place the call there or just patch the study through to the parlor from there, then double back in order to "duel" Natsuhi.

It's actually vaguely interesting to wonder what room the killer is in at any given time when not actually visible as a survivor.

I'd say that unless the killer is in a room making preparations for the next murder/whatever, he/she'd be in Random Unused Mansion/Guesthouse Room #X.

I'd think being in any room that's not easy to exit is a bad idea in general. Also, some things presumably would only be available in some rooms. My guess would be that the stuff to write the letters and whatnot are probably stored in the VIP room, for example. Fortunately, nobody has the numbers or organizational skills to cut off large areas through posting sentries, so it doesn't seem like the killer has to improvise all that often due to lack of access to some valuable tool or other.

Actually now I consider it, Nanjo dies much later than that scene as well. Still, it is unusual that this one and only time Yasu was walking around without a personality...

Maybe she was going around in her Beatrice personality... the one nobody sees apart for Yasu.

Quote:

My dear...Beatrice...

No one will be able to see your form.
However, I alone can see you.
And if you are loved by many people...
I'm sure that everyone will be able to see you someday.

With love, they will be able to see us......

Quote:

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

1) The only evidence that the letter ever existed was that Maria said so. Maria certainly made some false statements about how Beatrice entered the room; she'd probably make other false statements if Beatrice specifically asked her to. (There are also so some golden butterfly scenes, which are unreliable.)

I've been re-reading that scene and now I wonder if Maria really made a false statement or was tricked into thinking that's what had happened, like in the case of the cup filled with candies.
Basically if Maria saw Genji closing the door and then she was tricked into closing her eyes or something Yasu can enter thanks to her keys and explain to Maria she entered thanks to magic and Maria would swallow it.
And if you don't ask Maria 'did you see her do so?' you'll never know the truth.
Basically, you can get the TRUTH from maria only if you make her reconstruct the scene otherwise you'll get what SHE THINKS is the truth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

I at one point mentioned that the mansion must have a switchboard; the killer could have faked a call using that (ring Kinzo's room from the switchboard, then connect the parlor to Kinzo's room).

I think that's not even needed. There would likely be no way to check if the phone next to Maria was the one who did the call... unless only a group was going to check things while the other would stay behind.

Was there any confirmation (or even just implication) regarding whether Natsuhi was an accomplice in that episode? I've always been kind of on the fence about that...

It seems that she wasn't, because Natsuhi seemed to believe that she was randomly spared by luckily having the scorpion charm. However, Beatrice just laughed and said that the charm actually had no power over her, and that she only played along with it on a whim.

It's also interesting, actually, since Beatrice implies here that she's human. Her explanation for why the charm doesn't necessarily work on her is "because I'm the grandchild of the Golden Witch" (the emphasis on "grandchild" is from the manga, not me).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renall

It's a good thing she was taunting Natsuhi and not somebody of marginal intelligence like Eva or Kyrie. "I'll wait in the entrance hall" is practically code for "circle around from the other exit to the parlor and shoot me in the back of the head" for anyone with tactical sense. Not that this would've helped if the gun weren't loaded, though I imagine Kyrie would've checked that.

Yes, the spoilers I mentioned earlier were revealed by a conversation between Beatrice and Natsuhi about past games, and Beatrice was making fun of how stupid Natsuhi was the whole time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thunder Book

It's been a while since I've read the Episodes, but did the letter at the end of Episode 1 that was signed by "Maria Ushiromiya" actually accompany a message bottle story?

I don't think it's specified, but I tend to think that the passage attributed to Maria during the EP1 credits was the epilogue of that message bottle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

This part of my argument I admit isn't very strong due to fuzzy memory, but I BELIEVE the major name puns that get quoted around are how to read Toya Hachijou's name and pen name, which came up back in EP6? I remember people noticing another name pun at some point but I don't remember it, but DO remember finding it unconvincing. Does anyone know what I'm taking about?

Do you mean 幾子 ＝＝＞ 1-9-子 ??

The same kanji was also used in Itouikukuro Reigonamu (伊藤幾九郎〇五七六, 11019960576).

One thing going on in Legend is that there are lots of false scenes that Piece-Battler thinks happened because some witness that he trusts told him they happened. I think we might see them for the same reason we think we see Meta-Battler getting cornered in EP6, namely that the reader (Tohya/Meta-Battler in EP1 and Ange in EP6) is filling in the blanks based on the available info. That goes for at least a significant number of the Kinzo scenes.

But what about EP2? Why would Touya be filling in the blanks with magic stuff?

--------------------------

Finished chapters 7 and 8.

Kinzo talked about how, using some kind of special scattering round and enough gunpowder, a sawed-off shotgun to shoot someone point-blank in the face would blow someone's head off such that it would look like "a witch or demon devoured it". Then he said that so much gunpowder would cause too much recoil, but that even with less gunpowder you could still blow off about half of a face.

So, I guess that's the weapon used to kill most people in EP4.

Also, some background about Genji. He and Kinzo grew up together in Taiwan, kinda as friends/rivals. Kinzo left after the Kantou Quake, and after the war, Genji seemed to fall on some rough times in the post-war chaos and had no place to go. And so Kinzo offered him a place, and Genji is all super grateful. Also, apparently when the two are alone, sometimes the formalities drop and they go back to old times.

And, wow, Genji is the same age as Kinzo? I always thought Genji was younger. But, in those flashback images that pre-date the 1923 earthquake, they look like they're in their late teens, so Genji and Kinzo are both probably about 80-ish in 1986.

But what about EP2? Why would Touya be filling in the blanks with magic stuff?

What if actually the magic stuffs in EP 2 are... implied by the test (that after all is being written by 'Maria') but not actually there?
Let's pick Ep 1. We don't see the scene in which Beato turned into butterflies and entered in the room but Maria said that's what she did.

In short the magical scenes would be merely a visual expansion on how the reader pictures a scene described in the tale through Maria's eyes.

So she can say that the stake appeared in Jessica's room because ordered by Beatrice. Kanon, that was with her, tried to protect her but Beatrice's magic is too strong so the two of them had no hope to win.

After all Maria is consistently declaring stuffs to be done by Beatrice's magic... and it's possible that if a reader read the first message/Ep1 he was at first left in disbelief but then, when reading Ep 2 he might start wondering if Maria's explanation is the one possible and ending up developing her suggestions in a full fantasy scene.

Interesting enough if I'm not wrong we don't see the fantasy for the first twilight but we see the one for the second... for which PieceBattler will try his best to refuse the most obvious solution (Kanon killed Jessica and left).

[though there's to say PieceBattler might have been influenced by the Meta in which Kanon was declared dead... as in Ep 2 the two seem to be thightly connected... funny enough in Ep 4 they're not as Beato says PieceBattler couldn't hear her but MetaBattler could]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wanderer

Finished chapters 7 and 8.

Thank you so much for the extra info!
If I can ask any other info about how Beato knew the truth about Battler's birth? Or how Ange seemed to know it (at least to me) in Ep 4?

Oh and I also have something to say about Ep 7 manga version though maybe people here know this already...

Have you ever wonder if there was a reason for the manga to cut the scene in which Battler places his tale with Beato in the grave?
Well, there's one. The scene isn't in the magazine version of the manga... but was later added at the beginning of EP7 volume version.

And about Ep 7... it's something I've been wondering but that probably will remain without an answer.

We learnt what happened on the military base by Kinzo.
Kinzo however wasn't present when the Japanese soldiers tried to kill the Italians with a grenade that didn't explode and, apparently, didn't have the time to talk with a Japanese soldier and have the retelling of what had happened.

Beatrice is also not present and when she asked Rubens what was going on he refused to tell her.

That's real that Yamamoto mentioned the failure of a surprise attack with the grenade so Kinzo might have guessed how things went... but it's also real we've a red saying it was Kinzo who suggested to steal the Italian gold...

And, interesting enough, when all the shooting happened Kinzo was someplace away...

So what if it wasn't Yamamoto who started everything but Kinzo, suggesting to his companions to attack the Italians and then handing them a granade that didn't work in hope they would try and kill each other?

Likely he didn't believe they would manage to kill so many Japanese, just that they would kill some and then get killed.
If the Italians were to get killed the gold would remain to the Japanese, and if the Japanese were less... well when they would have to share the gold the portions would be bigger, wouldn't they?

After all he apparently doesn't know the Italians are so good... on the other side he might have even gone around killing unsuspecting surviving Japanese so as to put the blame on the Italians and take the gold all for himself...

And this plan would mirror Ep 7 Teaparty as getting rid of everyone with which she could have to share the gold was Kyrie's way to solve the problem... only with Kyrie it seems over the top because we assume Kyrie and Rudolf should have felt some affection for family members (Kyrie even considered killing Battler) and it seems a plan with low chances to work... while Kinzo has no attachment for the other Japanese soldiers. They're not his relatives and they bullied him.

Also we know he successfully managed to likely put the blame for everything on the Italians and keep the gold for himself.

So maybe Ep 7 Teaparty wasn't an hint on what happened on Rokkenjima in 1986 but on what happened on it when Kinzo got the gold...

Just wondering... and I still think that:
1) the whole story about Italians hiding gold in Japan is pretty absurd and a plot contrivance
2) more or less I think the same as Kinzo managing to survive with Bice, not being suspected by the army and managing to get all the gold... although since Japan was probably in deep troubles back then this has a chance to be more believable than (1) or Kyrie's plan (in fact Kinzo could count on the fact they wouldn't investigate too much on who shoot who as they litterally had no time for it... and could probably hope no one would be sent on Rokkenjima again as, due to how things were going, there was no use for it... and since Japan was about to lose the war he could also assume American wouldn't feel the need to investigate on what had happened in the place... and anyway he had gold with which he could bribe them)