In our conversation we discuss challenges with metrics, understanding value vs. cost particular for software, Nicks perspective as both a CIO and CTO of the New York Times, importance of IT being involved and understanding the business vs. just being technology focused. We also discuss the bigger broader opportunity of serverless (aka micro services, containers) life beyond DevOps and how higher level business logic developers can benefit from the technology instead of just a DevOps for infrastructure focus. Buzzwords, buzz terms and themes include datacenter technologies, NY Times, data infrastructure, management, trends, metrics, digital transformation, tradecraft skills, DevOps, serverless among others.