well these people are attracted to it and feel at home in it and that goes back many years, even from boardroom level and beyond. Nothing was ever done about it and now its part of soccer culture, including the kind of hate filled behaviour that spawns the runway of death song and many other vile exp<b></b>ressionsThese people are not a majority, but they are an ingrained and vociferous minority, there transcend age and class.

Rugby League has its bigots, but has always been open to all, and has a tradition of not tolerating this kind of behaviour.

And if RL was as popular as soccer, all those problems would affect us too. Its all a question of numbers....I'm pretty sure soccer has not had a policy of racism/exclusion? (willing to be told otherwise though)

Soccer is genuinely played all over the world, I'd say that's pretty much open to all. Soccer is more likely to bring peace to the middle east than politics, far more likely.

And if RL was as popular as soccer, all those problems would affect us too. Its all a question of numbers....I'm pretty sure soccer has not had a policy of racism/exclusion? (willing to be told otherwise though)

Soccer is genuinely played all over the world, I'd say that's pretty much open to all. Soccer is more likely to bring peace to the middle east than politics, far more likely.

It's a question of leadership John

Blatter says that racism on the field isn't a problem that can't be solved by a handshake at the final whistle

it isn't long ago that the chairman of Crystal Palace said that black players couldn't defend and commentators on tv would go on all the time about african players being excitable, naive and so on.

The issue of racism, homophobia and hate hasn't been addressed ever in soccer.

on the other hand you are spot on when you, or it might have been someone else. talk about soccer being the world's community sport. There can't be a shanty town, slum, public playing field in most of the world where people many without even shoes on their feet aren't enjoying soccer in some way: and your comment about the middle east is right on the money.

edit: the tradition of racism, sexism and homophobia in soccer is far more insiduous and ingrained through tradition to be enshrined in official policy.

You're correct about the leadership bit. But I still maintain that if RL were as big, whilst the game may have had laudable aims and aspirations we would end up with similar problems due to sheer weight of numbers and the percentage of idiots therefore involved.

Re: being gay. It's not that long ago that it was impossible to 'come out' whatever your job. It will clearly take some time for a game as big as soccer to get to grips with the matter.

You're correct about the leadership bit. But I still maintain that if RL were as big, whilst the game may have had laudable aims and aspirations we would end up with similar problems due to sheer weight of numbers and the percentage of idiots therefore involved.

Re: being gay. It's not that long ago that it was impossible to 'come out' whatever your job. It will clearly take some time for a game as big as soccer to get to grips with the matter.

you might well be right.

The thing about soccer though is that nothing has been done for decades and so it's taken for granted

it will be some time if and when soccer gets to grips with the matter.

other cultures made a start a long time ago: but soccer for some reason lags behind.

The thing about soccer though is that nothing has been done for decades and so it's taken for granted

it will be some time if and when soccer gets to grips with the matter.

other cultures made a start a long time ago: but soccer for some reason lags behind.

What a ridiculous post.

If nothing has been done there would still be monkey noises whenever a black player got the ball at Anfield. There aren't.

Unfortunately we can't compare whether things have improved for black rugby league players in this country because, despite how superior we are to soccer in openness, tolerance and loveliness, there don't seem to be that many.

The Serb and Russian racism don't come out of soccer, they come out of what, sadly, seems to be a visible part of their mainstream culture. There was even racist chanting (apparently) during a women's handball match in Serbia recently. Given that handball is also home to the lesbians of Scandinavia it just shows that sweeping generalisations about the culture of a sport are made in ignorance and doomed to failure.

I think soccer is a good barometer of where we are as a society. We all like to think that we are intelligent, sensible and reasonable people but put us in a large group and mob mentality soon takes over. The same behaviour would be seen in any sport that is as big as soccer.

I think soccer is a good barometer of where we are as a society. We all like to think that we are intelligent, sensible and reasonable people but put us in a large group and mob mentality soon takes over. The same behaviour would be seen in any sport that is as big as soccer.

That's absolutely true. Like most people on this board: --I consider myself to be an intelligent, sensible and reasonable person - I've done daft stuff when caught up in the moment on a night out.

We shouldn't routinely excuse ourselves from any associated responsibility for society's ills merely by comparing ourselves with "moronic" football fans.

If nothing has been done there would still be monkey noises whenever a black player got the ball at Anfield. There aren't.

Unfortunately we can't compare whether things have improved for black rugby league players in this country because, despite how superior we are to soccer in openness, tolerance and loveliness, there don't seem to be that many.

The Serb and Russian racism don't come out of soccer, they come out of what, sadly, seems to be a visible part of their mainstream culture. There was even racist chanting (apparently) during a women's handball match in Serbia recently. Given that handball is also home to the lesbians of Scandinavia it just shows that sweeping generalisations about the culture of a sport are made in ignorance and doomed to failure.

I'l ltake that on board Ginge.

what has been done to make racism, homophobia, and hate in mainstream soccer hasbeen pitiful, ad all to often paid lip service to.

It isn't jut racism and so on on that is the issue, but the expression that certain types of behaviour finds in soccer: behaviour that would be unacceptale, especially in the presence of children on the out. Where in any other form of mass entertainment can we xpect to hear the likes of the runway of death song?

Racism is now generally unacceptable to he extent that it is now illegal, and is less prevalent than say 30-40 yeas ago, hen we had the monkey chants, people selling right wing literature outside grounds and so on, or even worse in the 1920s and 30s when hooliganism in the UK was probably a its zenith.

You accurately describe the bhaviour of fans in central and eastern Europe and ameliorate it by saying tha is what these societies are like. It might well o. Does tt mea that wherever you go to spend your leisure time in large groups in these countries or the uk tenwe can expect tat kind of behaviour? Or that it should be deemed acceptable, 'because it's part of their culture'?

Unlike Robin van Persie, Arsene Wenger has been very consistent for the Arsenal board for 14 years running which at least partially explains why he is earning €9m - or £7.5m- a year.The temptation is to look at the names on the list of the top 10 football managers and wonder how Wenger is earning his keep when he “hasn’t won a trophy for six years.” After all, you see Jose Mourinho, Pep Guardiola, and Sir Alex Ferguson on there, earning top dollar while winning trophies and it’s an easy association. But here’s the list:

I think soccer is a good barometer of where we are as a society. We all like to think that we are intelligent, sensible and reasonable people but put us in a large group and mob mentality soon takes over. The same behaviour would be seen in any sport that is as big as soccer.

Agreed. and proportionally in the smaller spectator sports. I recall bananas being thrown at Ellery Hanley at Wilderspool and racist comments from the corporate boxes at Belle Vue and being abused when the stewards were notified. Yes, huge strides have been made but I think there are generational issues and education issues and it will take a long time to work these out of the system. Great progress has been made, but more , much more remains to be done.

I think soccer is a good barometer of where we are as a society. We all like to think that we are intelligent, sensible and reasonable people but put us in a large group and mob mentality soon takes over. The same behaviour would be seen in any sport that is as big as soccer.

I think soccer is a good barometer of where we are as a society. We all like to think that we are intelligent, sensible and reasonable people but put us in a large group and mob mentality soon takes over. The same behaviour would be seen in any sport that is as big as soccer.

but society isn't ruled by mob mentality.

It neither explains what happens in soccer nor excuses it. The people who behave in this way at soccer games hold the same views and have the same bigotry on the out as they do in soccer, but they aren't allowed to express them, certainly they aren't allowed to express them in the way they do. Soccer gives them an opportunity because nobody within the game is willing to do anything serious about it.

a miniority of the population attends soccer games. The majority of that minority don't behave in the way that is being discussed(although by their passivity towards it is significant). The people who behave in this way are a large minority of that group.

What I find significant is the behaviour of the various governing bodies of the sport and their efforts or lack of efforts to do something about it.For example a soccer player who displayed a company logo on his underwear in a game was punished more severely than those who took part in the racist incidents at a recent England international.

Nobody makes any kind of genuine attempt to address or stand up against the evil behaviour that takes place on a massive scale in central and eastern europe.The leader of the entire sport seems completely unreconstructed in his attitude to racism(amongst many other things)