Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the
world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to
over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a
wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history,
humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced
features available, you will need to register first. Registration is
absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Where I come from we try to make friends before committing ourselves to enmity. It may sound naive, but I don't cross the street if someone's walking toward me - I smile and catch their eye and say "hi"......

Jeremy, I'm begging you to reconsider purposely staying on the same side of the street with the intent to make eye contact and say,"Hi." Of course, extenuating circumstances prevail, but as a rule, it's wise to be cautious. Ounce of prevention, pound of cure.

***disclaimer- following is not particularly pleasant, not for the weak of stomach***

Afa, my personal philosophy, I've been in too many armed confrontations( When I had the "knife fight", I's in the hospital for a month, nothing to eat, but chewing on ice, fighting bile infection( potentially fatal), with enemas every hour. Wanna know the definition of gross? Throwing up diarrhea- yep, apparently when your intestines get outside your body {at that moment I remember thinking, "Hmm, that looks like toothpaste out of a tube"} they shut down, yet your liver still produces bile, when it backs up into your stomach, 'Katie bar the door', it's coming up- Exorcist style) hopefully you won't have to.

Last edited by GeneC : 01-01-2009 at 12:55 PM.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman

Clarence, while I sympathize with what you've gone through, surely you don't think that's a typical outcome of passing someone on the street and saying, "Hi". Is that in fact how your intestines came to be outside your body?

Didn't mean to be snarky. It helps that I do know the guy personally. He's not naturally the turn-the-cheek type, but he has learned that when you live among other people, you have to pull in your horns a lot of the time. He's a happy person, hardly suffering through "hell on earth".

Thanks for that, Mary

I don't know the fellow, it's true, but I did try to read the piece with an open mind. I found it poignant, witty, and even touching; however, my gut reaction was that the discourse does not mesh with my own experience of Christianity (from my youth), other faiths (from interfaith studies), budo (from military service and subsequent martial arts studies), or most recently from zen studies.

Here is an experience I had last March. I was with my then-seven-year-old son. Only through happenstance did an elderly gentleman intervene before I could have. I certainly ran the risk of leaving my son with the image of his father dead on the floor, it's true; but, that's only one hypothetical outcome. Another is that, for my having done nothing, the situation escalated, the wired security guard drew his weapon, got into a struggle and started firing, stray bullets killing random patrons including my son.

Who knows?

Now, to be clear, I did not go out of my way looking for a dangerous grocery store. I did not go looking for a fight. I did not relish the opportunity to test and prove my aikido skills. That is, nothing drove me to do something. Similarly, my thoughts in that moment were about moving my son to a safe distance so that I could act. That is, nothing drove me not to do something either.

You can ask my wife and daughter whether this makes me an idiot or if they feel less loved for it. In the end, though, this is who I am and that is the mind I consciously try to cultivate in my different endeavors.

By the way, here's a story about the regret I felt in not having acted once plus all of the speculation. No aikido, just a set of dilemmas and hypothetical outcomes that exemplify these types of situations.

On not getting involved, maybe the most extreme case is highlighted by the famous poem, "First they came..."

Not everyone gets the big Ghandi moment, or that Jesus Christ moment, or "Hold that hill, Soldier!" moment, but I suspect everyone encounters lighter versions of the same over a lifetime. How would we face them?

Last edited by Joe McParland : 01-01-2009 at 05:34 PM.
Reason: So many words, yet I still forgot some! ;-)

Jeremy, I'm begging you to reconsider purposely staying on the same side of the street with the intent to make eye contact and say,"Hi." Of course, extenuating circumstances prevail, but as a rule, it's wise to be cautious. Ounce of prevention, pound of cure.

I agree with your general idea that people ought be prepared for anything: plan for the worst; hope for the best. Sometimes, if it's obvious to the attacker, stepping across the street inspires the chase too though. Sometimes though, it's stupid not to find a quick change in route. When I worked nights in an alley frequented by crack-heads and very very cheap prostitutes (and their pimps), I always looked them in the eye and smiled or gave a respectful nod, depending. But as you can likely attest, with some folks, it's better not to engage in any way.

To the initial poster:
First :evaluate ma-ai, check your own ego and then determine the benefits engaging. Often the second step takes care of many problems. Cuz like, wudda you care if he's a jerk.

Quote:

Matthew Gano wrote:

I agree with your general idea that people ought be prepared for anything: plan for the worst; hope for the best. Sometimes, if it's obvious to the attacker, stepping across the street inspires the chase too though. Sometimes though, it's stupid not to find a quick change in route. When I worked nights in an alley frequented by crack-heads and very very cheap prostitutes (and their pimps), I always looked them in the eye and smiled or gave a respectful nod, depending. But as you can likely attest, with some folks, it's better not to engage in any way.

It really is a lot like dog training. Some dogs need eye contact to establish respect in the pecking order and others take it as a direct challenge of dominance and will respond viciously. It's a combo of science and intuition that relies heavily on basic skills and an ability to adapt mid-stream. And we all make mistakes.

I have a strong rule to never backdown to a bully. In the original poster's situation I would of called his play and found out if he was bluffing. That said, I was bullied a lot in when I was younger and I learned that the very best way to stop a bully and sometimes get a friend is to knock him down.

Of course in that situation I would also be confident that my friend or friends would help. I'm really surprised a guy would bully 2 guys at once. In fact that would be the first thing I would probably point out to the aggressor.

However, my path is probably not the best path, and it has probably lead to unneeded trouble more often the I give it credit for. But I can tell you that I have never had to deal with the same person more then one after initiating this policy. Usually the confidence of one not only willing, but well prepared to fight is enough to back down even a confident bully.

Of course now that I carry a pistol most of the time I really need to rethink this tactic.

Clarence, while I sympathize with what you've gone through, surely you don't think that's a typical outcome of passing someone on the street and saying, "Hi". Is that in fact how your intestines came to be outside your body?

Yes it was, only it wasn't me saying hi, nor them. Fact is they asked for a light (as in cigarette), but it could be anything , or nothing. As I said before, the extenuating circumstances'd cover, the time of day or night, part of town, how lit the place is, who's around, amount of general danger,etc.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman

So, what to do? A few days ago a guy was all I'm gonna beat ya all up. My friend was kinda scared. But I didn't have the guts to confront him about thinking he's all mighty.

What should I do when he again tries something like that? Should I stand up for my friend?

What would you do?

Thanks,
Marko

As bully bait as an occupation, I have been dealing with bullies allot. Getting my share of pain and violence, I echo what Kevin said, to a point and I will go into that later. He is what he said,

"Sounds like a case of bullying. Bullies have more at issue than a simple game of ping pong. Not always easy to deal with especially if you have to face them in the same environment everyday. Fighting of course should be the last resort, and you should try and de-escalate the situation as best you can" That is far as I suggest to go.

Is the bully a gang member, or other dangerous sort. Or a leader of his own little gang. Does he look like he or they will use deadly force, i.e. weapon. How does he intimidate, what is his method of intimidation and how does he use it. From that what level of violence do you think he is willing to use if forced to. Do you see any weakness you can exploit, verbally or physically, or both to protect yourself.

See you have an advantage, first contact, and it was not a violent one. It means you can study him. Because your going to need a plan. Hey let's face it. You didn't stand up to him at first contact. This means in his mind you are weak, you have been dominated. You are equal now to your friend.

You two put your heads together, on how to solve the issue at the next point of contact depending on what type and how dangerous the bully is. Bullies use verbal force to control their targets, to intimidate them. If that doesn't work and they feel the target isn't a threat they will go to the next level of force and threaten or assault (a show of force). If that doesn't work force is the next level. If they can't verbally control you they will physically control you. Their goal is to get the compliance they want from their targets. Some bullies get an extra charge from inflicting pain.

Rule of thumb you have to have a plan and it must be tailored to that bully's style at all the levels of aggression possibly experienced from that bully. Mind you not all plans work or have the expected results. But, if a plan is successful it is sweet.

Here are some of my experiences, not every thing works. This is to just give you an idea. The first contact with two bullies was days before in store where I got shoulder bumped by two guys that looked like ex-cons. Little did I know that my ex-girl friend convinced two drug buddies to cut me because I stop dating her due to her new-old hobby of drug use. They had marked me as a target. A very difficult and volatile situation. I have two point encounters with these guys. The second occurred because I didn't confront them the first time. But it gave me an opportunity to see who and what I was dealing with and how to deal with the situation. I was unaware of why they where bullying me, until later.

At the first encounter of being bumped I should have turned and said something that lead them to think I wasn't worth the effort. I should have gotten into their heads. i.e. say something weird and crazy non-threatening, to a compliment and either way keep talking not letting them say anything back to me as I walked away. After all we are in public, they are bigger and out number me.

At the second encountered I used the weakness I found in each. Knowing that I would see them again, because that is what the told me, I got prepared. I feed their egos and exploited their obvious drug habit with conversation and interest. Doing so did de-escalate the mental psych-up needed to go to the next levels.

Golden rule don't reason with a bully, it doesn't work. Work to find a way to de-escalate the situation. Because if it turns violent he had the advantage. You don't want it to go to that level.

Golden rule number two, don't show fear or other emotions. When you do so that is something the bully is looking for. Use a poker face not reacting to intimidation or threats, or any thing else thrown at you. Don't mock, or try clever insults, well any insults for that matter. Don't reason or be too logical. Play it even, and play to what the bully's weakness. Stay calm, no fear, no sweat. Your goal is to deflate the energy built up to be release upon you as violence. If successful the bully will likely seek a target more suitable to get what the bully wants.

What ever the plan is both you and your friend have to work it.

There is no magic bullet when it comes to bullies. Each situation is different and calls for different approaches, and things. And they don't always work. Nothing is 100%. You use the wrong approach to get into their head, etc. Verbal response or even a visual communication works to stop a bully from going to the next level. Or the wrong approach or play can accelerate the bully to act.

Someone might say, well there is two of you and one of him jump his ____ beat the ____out of him. When he is down on the ground remind him why your were the wrong persons to mess with. That doesn't always work either, because bullies are also very insecure. And they just might decide to seek revenge with all they got when least expected.

I think it is better that the two of you work together to stop this bully. Find a weakness and exploit it to deflate the bully, let the adrenaline dump pass unused. Don't be a suitable target. Have a plan for your next encounter.

Speaking of that, what if it's not a person at all, but a big dog,or a pack of dogs, or a rabid dog, or raccoon, etc?

Well, first off I think, in general, you're always better off behind 'em then in front of 'em.

There was a thread a while back about one specific dog incident a forum member encountered.....But I really think it depends on the persons sensitivity and training level, the moment and animal itself.
Unless, of course, the answer is the same one we applied when I worked at a pest control office. Picture this:

Ring-RingMe: Good Morning___________(insert business name here) pest control. Can I help you?Customer: Yes, I have an ant problem. What do you do for ants?Me: Um. We Kill Em.

Ring-RingMe: Good Morning___________(insert business name here) pest control. Can I help you?Customer: Yes, I have an rodent problem. What do you do for rodents?Me: Um. We Kill Em.

Ring-RingMe: Good Morning___________(insert business name here) pest control. Can I help you?Customer: Yes, I have a Raccoon problem. What do you do for raccoons?Me: Um. We Kill Em.

It also brings to mind a time when a raccoon was marauding around my backyard in town (I'm a country girl, now). He was creeping toward the house when my cat decided to get brave and all I could see was a huge vet bill on the horizon. Well, I guess I didn't know that much 'bout 'coons at the time cuz silly me picked up a hose and tried to run him off with the water. Well , do you know that that little F***er stood right up on his hind legs and practically asked me for a bar of soap to wash his self with. In that particular instance I got whooped, as they say. and he got a nice free shower out of the deal. But the cat got away. So, no harm. No foul. And NO, I didn't give him the bar of soap. "Visit a Howard Johnson's, ya little rat bastard.", I told him. Hahahahahah.

Speaking of that, what if it's not a person at all, but a big dog,or a pack of dogs, or a rabid dog, or raccoon, etc?

Or circus ponies. Mustn't forget the circus ponies. Your martial art is worthless if it doesn't train you to deal with the sudden, completely out-of-the-blue appearance of a herd of enraged circus ponies, all determined to trample you to death. How can you say your martial art trains for self-defense if it doesn't teach you that? Sheesh.