He wrote you many many letters. Are you reading them or are they sitting on a dresser or shelf somewhere?

You've learned well, my little one. You are obtuse, remote, dependent upon simile and probably non-existent as well. That you are offended by people who have original thoughts, or thoughts at all for that matter, is no surprise.

Talking to us like we are children is bad enough. Choosing to speak in lofty terms when you haven't yet been issued a literary license just makes it worse.

So, my dear friend, what sin comes to mind while you read? This is the wall He wants to tear down so you can see Him.

Frankly, seems to me that this is an excuse to justify why people who aren't "in the right frame of mind" don't get anything from reading the Bible. In actual fact, people can be inspired by just about anything, but not everyone is inspired by the same thing.

Also, seems like if your god wanted people to see him, he wouldn't have to waste time with this roundabout process of tearing down walls of sin, or whatever they are, simply so people would know he exists. Real entities can make themselves known simply by showing up in front of us. Your god should easily be able to do that, if even a fraction of the magical powers attributed to him have some basis in fact.

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Nullus In Verba, aka "Take nobody's word for it!" If you can't show it, then you don't know it.

"Don't go into business with Whatsisname, and in the name of all that is holy do not marry him! Wait till you're pregnant and then just skip town."

Your imaginary friend really dropped the ball, Colleen. Fortunately, I was able to pick it up Myself and score My own touchdowns.

Wouldn't that be awesome? Or how about if when you open a fortune cookie the little paper said "Your date is a douchebag, be afraid, be very afraid." Or when you made those little fortune tellers and opened it up it said "When you get older this bitch will steal your boyfriend."

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It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long. But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

So, my dear friend, what sin comes to mind while you read? This is the wall He wants to tear down so you can see Him.

"He wants to tear down..."

As in "would like to, but is unable to"? Why is your god incapable of tearing down "the wall"[1] himself?

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He wrote you many many letters. Are you reading them or are they sitting on a dresser or shelf somewhere?

I've gotten letters from my parents, the phone company, the bank, insurance company, the electric company, etc etc. So I know the postal service still works. I never received a letter from god. Either god needs to get my address right, or he needs to start putting stamps on those postcards.

Some people will not truly consider God . . . until they're aware that THIS might be their last breath. Imagine being on the 100th floor of one of the Trade Towers on September 11th and realizing your flight down the stairs might not get you out safely. Or imagine a rainy night on the highway as you are driving home late one Friday and a semi tractor trailer faces you head on with no time to react. Then there's always the doctors diagnosis that "Yes, I'm sorry, it's cancer and it's beyond treatment." All of us must face the reality now, while we still have eyes to read and time to ask "God, if you're real, will you please show me?" As we open up the only Book that we know, deep in our hearts, is like no other on earth. So, if YOU truly want to know if God is real, He has given YOU His personal challenge and invitation: Open His Book (Bible) with an honest desire to know Him as He is, start reading and don't stop until you "SEE" Him. He reserves Himself for those who WANT to know Him.Who knows, today COULD be your last.

An appeal to basic human fear.

When some little children get beat up by some other little children, they call for their mommy. So when we face a desperate situation, you claim we will call for our daddy? It's the same thing really. Mom is in miles away and cannot her the child's plea, and god is nowhere. He can't hear our last minute plea, no matter how desperate we are.

I’d like to start by pointing at revelations in the bible; most of them have been proven to become true.

The consensus is that there are no prophecies in the Bible.

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I think WWII allowed Jews to return to their holly land, which is something pretty much unique in history,

The consensus is that (i) "unique cannot be qualified - it is like being dead, you either are or aren't (ii) You have forgotten the Exile and return from exile of the Jews in the OT

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for we know (as an example) American natives will never recover their land.

The consensus is "How do we "know this, as opposed to "believing it most likely."?"

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Now there is this Jewish Christian group earning popularity, which is making Jesus part of their beliefs in Israel, something most of us would have imagine impossible. And I’m concerned about the possibility of missing reality because of arrogance.

The consensus is that the number of Jews converting is statistically insignificant.

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Since nobody can prove God’s existence, neither his non-existence,

You have not stated what standard of proof you want.

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I would like to discuss on this forum about what is more likely to be the truth.

The consensus is that there is no God, or gods, or fairies, or gnomes, or dragons, or unicorns, or witches, or wizards, or miracles or resurrections and that anyone who says there is is deluded - big time.

I hope this helps.[/quote]

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Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

I ask one question. without claiming any absolutes such as god doesnt exist. What sciencetific proof does anyone that God didnt "program" the reality we know to work how it does. if you allow to say that god as the level of power we believe him to have what does it hurt to say a intelligent being was ale to program a world to operate on a simple set of laes.u

I don't know what a set of "laes.u" is, but I think I get the gist of what you're trying to type.

We could, as you say, all be brains in a vat. Or programs in a cosmic computer. If you specifically design a scenario in such a way as to make it indistinguishable from the reality we normally observe, then there is no scientific evidence against it. Not because it's plausible, but because the scenario has been deliberately designed in such a way as to leave no trace of itself.

This sort of scenario is what you're designing, here. I have no idea why we'd want to pose such scenarios in the first place. Do you?

The idea in my line of thinking is this. throw out the bible as historical fact. look at actual fact, we have found evidence to sciencetific support a great flood that would have flooded the known world to noah's desendents.we know that if you look in the world of medcine even today dr. say that something causing people with faith to heal faster and more unexplainablely. a famous sciencetis theroized that the belief in the extisence of god was sounf due to the fact that if you were right paradise awaits if wrong... you still taste the same to the worms. I pride myself on not being the typical bible beater. i believe that as you state science nor religion will ever be proven right ir wrong i sugest only that a person look at the math of our existence. one degree different and many physis say life may not have formed in our galaxy so that suggest to me a intelligentence behind the order from chaos to order theory of no God

Well, geologists have known about that flood for some time. It was localized, albeit over a fairly large area. And it stayed flooded. Both of which differ from the biblical story that supposedly flooded the entire world. And that didn't happen.

I've always healed fast and I've had very few medical problems outside of cuts and bruises, and I've been an atheist for over 50 years. I haven't had a cold in almost four years. I've never had the flu in my life. So if there are differences between people in how fast the heal, etc. it may be something besides faith. Because I don't have any.

Believers tend to play fast and sloppy with the facts and often do a pretty good job fooling themselves into thinking they have something kinda scientific to back up their biblical claims. Life isn't that easy. If one is going to try to match the facts with what they hope is true, one has to start out with some pretty high quality hopes. Otherwise it isn't going to work out.

If it is really important for you to believe the stuff you are saying, you are probably discussing these things in the wrong place. We are going to ask for details every time you make a claim, and unless you come up with something very different from what many believers have said on this site before, it ain't gonna work. Well just sit around and tell you why you're wrong.

You are welcome to be here, of course. Just don't expect everyone to be as nice as I am.

we know that if you look in the world of medcine even today dr. say that something causing people with faith to heal faster and more unexplainablely.

Perhaps so. But it applies to ALL people of ALL religions, who foloow ALL kinds of woo. And it also applies to people who take placebos. Neither mean there is any external force acting on us. And it certainly doesn't mean YOUR god exists, when all the Hindus and Ba'hai and Wiccans with belief heal so much faster.

a famous sciencetis theroized that the belief in the extisence of god was sounf due to the fact that if you were right paradise awaits if wrong... you still taste the same to the worms.

Sounds exactly like Pascal's wager, an entirely discredited piece of trickery that would ONLY work if the two possible options were "Christian god" and "no god". Chuck any one other god into the mix, and the Wager become worthless.

Consider:Yahweh brings you to heaven, or sends you to hell, based on your belief in him. But he is a forgiving god.Khorne brings you to heaven, or sends you to hell, based on your belief in him. But he is an UNforgiving god.Pascal's Wager HERE would say: Worship Khorne, because Yahweh might still let you into heaven if it turns out he is the correct god. If you worship Yahweh. and Khorne is the One True God, you will definitely go to hell.

And, of course, either god might be more forgiving of an honestly searching but critical atheist, than to someone who devoutly followed the wrong faith.

Sadly though, so far you are using the same tired old arguments that most of them use, I'm sorry to say. Not your fault, of course - those arguments are pretty well drummed into believers by their preachers.

I first never said the flood was worldwide but to a small primitive family that wstch everything they know get washed aeay might say hey the world flooded. the fact almost every religion mention a destructive flood mean alot to any anthpological research. second I am different in i believe that all religion misses the mark in one way or another but there are too many simularities

I first never said the flood was worldwide but to a small primitive family that wstch everything they know get washed aeay might say hey the world flooded. the fact almost every religion mention a destructive flood mean alot to any anthpological research.

most religions were formed in comparatively low tech times. The fact that the people in low tech times thought that floods were one of the most destructive forces around doesn't really mean anything.

No, but you did say The Great Flood, which implies a worldwide flood. It is misleading, even if unintentionally so. It would be helpful if you were more precise in your communication to avoid this sort of confusion.

I first never said the flood was worldwide but to a small primitive family that wstch everything they know get washed aeay might say hey the world flooded.....

They may indeed. BUT, that means that the whole Biblical premise of the flood is destroyed: the flood happened, we are told, because Yahweh got mad at ALL the world. By saying it was really only small and localised gives the lie to Yahweh's words as reported in the Bible - or means that Yahweh simply doesn't exist in the first place.

A flood that swamps fifty square miles and kills three families may well feel like the end of the world and the wrath of god to people nearby. But a small local flood gives the lie to the whole rationale the Bible gives the flood in the first place.

...the fact almost every religion mention a destructive flood mean alot to any anthpological research.

....ALMOST all. Not all. Which means that the world never flooded (which we know from the ACTUAL evidence anyways). Which means - and ALL it means,a t best - is that some areas of the world had biggish floods, which people reported and gave divine meaning to. We also know that some flood myths are borrowed from early works that promote different gods.

second I am different in i believe that all religion misses the mark in one way or another but there are too many simularities

That's very true - but not necessarily for the reasons you think. Take a read of the below, and tell me if you think Jesus was real. Sad fact is, religions are similar because they borrow and steal from earlier mythologies - but that does NOT automatically mean the earlier myths were real. And if they were....it means the Bible gives the wrong names and meanings to the myths.

- - - - -So let's talk about Jesus.

Do you mean the Jesus who healed the sick and even raised the dead? Where the former paralysed walked again, the blind could miraculously see again, and the deaf could listen and the mute speak after the Master's gentle touch? But he did not only heal the body, he also healed the soul. They called him Saviour and Redeemer, and he healed both rich and poor, men and women, young and old, slaves and free men, friends and enemies. In one occasion a paralysed man was brough to him in his bed, and took his bed and left walking after the Saviour had touched him. What was this Saviour's name?

Who was born by a mortal virgin mother and had a divine Father, and was known as the "Saviour of the world"? Before he was born his parents wandered to a bigger town, and prophets had foretold his birth and that he would be a king. This instigated a search for the infant Saviour by a leading figure who wanted to kill him. After growing up the Son of God was shown all the kingdoms of the world from a high mountain. He also walked on water and when he met his end his mother and his favorite disciple stood by him. He then tells his mother: "Do not cry, I'm going to heaven". When he dies he utter: "It is finished" and the earth trembles and darkness cover the land. Then he ascended to heaven, and his greatest achievement was to conquer death.

We all of course know the Redeemer who was no figure of pagan Greek polytheism. He was the true saviour who wanted to help and save the sinful humans, by sacrificing himself. But he was willing to do this, out of love, pity and compassion for the humans.

Now, who was the real Son of God, born by a mortal virgin mother, and often presented as the venerated newborn infant, or depicted riding a donkey? He healed the sick and did numerous wonders, among those making fine wine from plain water. He was killed but resurrected from the dead and became immortal. The followers of this god often ate a holy meal in a kind of sacramental union with the deity to achieve immortality after their death. One of this god's finest achievements was his death, his sacrifice, which delivers the whole human kind.

Who is the "Light of the World", the One, the God who defeated death? Born of a virgin mother, considered the first true king by the people, who rose from the grave and ascended to heaven. He defeated death, and must be considered the single true God.

Now, the real God often called the "Light of the world", "The good shepherd", "The lamb" and is "…the way, the truth, and the life". Identified with a cross. Who could that be?

Horus, (the son of Osiris).-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The original "Light of the world" was the mediator between God and man and was born on the 25th of December. Local shepherds witnessed his birth and gave him gifts. He had 12 disciples, and when his work was done on earth he gathered together to a last supper, and then ascended to heaven. At doomsday he will return to pass judgment on both the living and the dead. The righteous will go to heaven and the sinful will be killed in a giant fire. Sunday is his holy day, and this religion gave us the seven days of the week. His followers called each other "brothers" and their leaders "fathers". They practiced baptism and established a sacred meal ritual, where flesh and blood was symbolically consumed by initiates. Above earth was heaven, and below the dark, hell, with demons and the sinners.

Wise men were led to his birth by a star, and his conception was miraculous. After his birth the ruler in the area wanted him dead and started a hunt for the child. But his parents were warned by a heavenly messenger who told them to escape over the river with the holy child. Here, he was met by shepherds. The boy grew up and did many great deeds, and was the mediator between God and man.

Who then, was the god whose mother was told by an angel that she would give birth to a holy child destined to be a saviour? Even as a child he instructed the priests in the temple in religous matters, while his parents were looking for him. He started his religious career when he was (circa) 30 years of age, and surrounded himself with 12 disciples. One of the disciples is his favorite another is a traitor. He and his disciples abstain from wealth and travel around talking in parables and metaphors. This God called himself "Son of Man" and was referred to as "Prophet", "Master" and "Lord". He did many great wonders and healed the sick, blind could see again and deaf hear. He also walked on water. When one of his disciples tried to do the same, he started to sink - his faith was not strong enough.

This saviour cannot be mistaken for any other. He performed countless miracles on earth, miracles well attested to by bystanders. He healed the sick and the crippled, restored sight to the blind, cast out demons, and even raised the dead! His birth was of a virgin, foretold by an angel. While still a child, he exhibited extraordinary knowledge of religious scripture. He reformed the corrupt and worldly religions of his day. He was crucified, rose from the tomb and appeared to his disciples to prove to them his power over death, after which he ascended to heaven to sit at the right hand of the father. He was known as "the Son of God!" His message is of love and compassion.

And there is of course the god-man, the prophet, the founder of a great monotheistic religion that still exist today. He preached that there was only one true god, and his teachings focused on the eternal fight between good and evil. The teachings include the idea of the saviour will wake the dead and pass judgment on all. The righteous ones goes to paradise and the sinful straight to a burning hell. The very word of Paradise stems from this religion. This semigod started his career in his early thirties, and had a following of disciples. As a band of monks they wandered around, preaching their religion. He was eventually killed and sent to heaven.

The problem for Jesus is that all these deities are much older than him. You don't have to be very bright to see where the authors of the gospels got their "devine inspiration" when they created the Jewish version of the popular God-Man/ World-Saviour of antiquity.

I first never said the flood was worldwide but to a small primitive family that wstch everything they know get washed aeay might say hey the world flooded. the fact almost every religion mention a destructive flood mean alot to any anthpological research. second I am different in i believe that all religion misses the mark in one way or another but there are too many simularities

People tell flood stories because there have been a lot of floods. People make up religions because it is easy to do, and in more primitive times, we can't really blame them. So people who have experienced great and scary floods often include such tales in their religions.

The common ground here is humans and human experience. Not an actual god. What you might think about doing is paying more attention to the inconsistencies. Even within a major religion, like christianity, there are hundreds of versions of the same story. Well, actually, there are thousands. This does't indicate one god or one set of gods being variously interpreted as much as it represents diverse groups of human beings and everyone's propensity to make stuff up when they have no other explanation. Or don't like other explanations. Toss in basic problems, like a fear of death and other problematic tendencies, like wanting to group up with some humans but not others, and the rise of religion, as it starts from mental exercises, and evolves into institutions, over and over again around the world, is of no surprise.

Religions get pimped because people like to have their own. And lacking real gods, the religious have free reign to invent whatever they want. But they are all humans, so they can't invent supernatural stuff that is outside their ability to imagine, and they can't write about experiences that never occur and that nobody ever thought of.

Oceans are scary. Fishermen even today know how risky it is to go out and catch fish. Imagine how scary it was three and four thousand years ago. How many people jumped in their boats and never returned, swallowed by storms. How many fishermen barely made it back? And a story makes it into the bible of a boat full of fishermen and a huge storm, and gods intervention, and miraculous survival, and of Jonah being swallowed by a whale and saved after being cast overboard. What are the odds? Not the odds of their survival, but the odds of a fishing story making it into the bible? Pretty high, apparently.

godisacoder, you mentioned that you have a different take on religion. I would suggest that you go to our "Introductions" section and tell us a little bit about yourself, because one of our biggest problems around here is that new believers, whom we tend to lump into one group, have very diverse beliefs. And if we don't get an overview from a new contributor such as yourself, we tend to assume that each one is a generic christian who has generic beliefs, and it always takes awhile to parse out the actual beliefs of newbies. It is impossible for us to intuit what a new members beliefs are, and when they speak in general terms like you did (flood stores, prayer, etc) we tend to jump to conclusions and put you into our "fundy" category. But if that does not define you, it will take us awhile to figure out where you stand on both basic and complex issues if you don't state your positions as clearly as possible. And the Introductions section will allow you to do that, thereby helping all of us avoid total confusion for awhile.

...second I am different in i believe that all religion misses the mark in one way or another but there are too many simularities

Seriously, you're not all that different. The 'oh religions are all specifically wrong but I still believe in principally unprovable nonsense about objective reality based on vague, ill-defined, unverifiable feelings that either contradict or have no relationship to objective reality' perspective is pretty popular.

Or the short form - 'spiritual not religious'.

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"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."