Transcript

Damien Carrick: Hello, welcome to the Law Report, Damien Carrick with you. Australia's tough stand on asylum seekers has stopped the boat arrivals from Indonesia, but despite this, people smuggling continues to thrive.

In our last program, journalist Andrew Dodd travelled to Java to speak with asylum seekers now stranded there. This week he investigates the people smugglers, the business people who (for a substantial fee) bring asylum seekers into Indonesia. Many promise quick registration as refugees and resettlement in third countries.

I should warn there is some strong language in this program.

Andrew Dodd: On a winding road through central Java, a small ice cream van is making its way south towards the coast. In the back there are 30 men, women and children, all crammed into the normally refrigerated compartment. They're on their way to catch a boat to Australia.

A 17-year-old asylum seeker who we'll call Walid is among them.

Walid: We were 30 people in one truck, ice cream truck. It was actually dark and there was one family with four child, the child, he was crying, and he was just calling to the smuggler that my son is crying. He said we can't do anything, just go maybe…he was just giving time, that maybe 15 minutes you will arrive, 15 minutes, 14 minutes, 20 minutes. But it took a lot of time. We don't have any space, we were just sitting. They feel danger. They were just praying, and the family, I saw the children, they were just crying. And then I received a call from my family and I dropped myself from the truck and come back.

Andrew Dodd: As Walid was squashed up in the back of the ice cream truck, the then Australian Prime Minister, Kevin Rudd, was making an important announcement. You may recall that when he came back to the prime ministership in June last year he immediately toughened the policy on asylum seekers and declared that no one who came to Australia by boat would be permitted to settle in Australia.

News report: Asylum seekers arrive by boat will be sent to Papua New Guinea for processing, and if they are deemed refugees they will be resettled there. The new policy will be backed up by an advertising blitz at home and in the region. The Prime Minister Kevin Rudd…

Andrew Dodd: On hearing this news, two members of Walid's family, who had already made it to Australia, rang him in Indonesia. Normally phones are taken away from the passengers but Walid had hidden his. So suddenly he had to make one of the most important decisions of his life; whether to catch a boat to Christmas Island or stay put in Indonesia. The first thing he did was to ring his people smuggler.

Walid: When I rang the smuggler that the Australian government changed the rule, and he told me that don't say it to any other passenger and don't share this news with any other passenger. So I just shared with my friend, and my friends I just shared with them, all the passengers, I just shared with them, I said that the rule and the regulation has changed, so let's go back. And they said no, no, now we came here, it is wrong news, and that's all. Then I came back.

Andrew Dodd: It's obvious, but why did the smuggler not want you to tell the other people in the car? Why did he not want you to tell them?

Walid: Because maybe if he paid another smuggler maybe, I don't know, he didn't want to destroy his planning, the ship was a ready maybe, the ship was ready, so passengers, the money is going out of their hand, out of his hand. So maybe.

Andrew Dodd: You must have been very disappointed when you decided not to take that boat.

Walid: Yes, I was. Two times my family rang me from Australia. One of them is my sister, my brother-in-law, he called me and told me that now it is your decision. If you want to come they will send you to Manus Island. Then at the time I made my decision and I came back. I just dropped myself from the truck and come back here in Cisarua.

Andrew Dodd: The other passengers from the ice cream van did board their boat. They were later intercepted by Australian customs and eventually taken to Manus Island, where many of them remain.

Although the people smugglers knew this could be their passengers' plight, they withheld that information from them and took their money. Taking people's money is what people smugglers do. And they're still doing it. Asylum seekers are still arriving in Indonesia in large numbers. For example, In Jakarta I met a group of eight young men and boys from Afghanistan, many of them arrived very recently.

Interpreter: Okay, they are new guys, they are five days arrived, is three days and five days. This one is four months. Six days, five, six days. I think they are new guys, they are new guys.

Andrew Dodd: Of the eight people in this group, two were just 16 years old and all but one had arrived in the last three weeks. They all travelled with people smugglers from Afghanistan to Malaysia. In Malaysia they caught boats across the Malacca Strait to Sumatra, where most then travelled to Padang to catch a flight to Jakarta. This is one of the established routes that people smugglers are still using. And for the passengers it isn't cheap.

Could you ask everyone how much they paid to their smugglers to get them here to Indonesia?

Interpreter: This man, $7,500. $8,500.

Man: $7,500 to smuggler I paid.

Man: US$6,000.

Interpreter: $9,000. $11,000. $8,000.

Man: $7,000.

Andrew Dodd: That's a lot of money to be spending on smugglers to get you here.

Man: Yes, of course. You know, we have sold our properties, our shops, our homes to get this kind of…

Man: And we sold our animals, we sold our sheep to get to Indonesia, yes.

Man: So this money is not our personal money. Nobody give us.

Man: And right now our money is finished and we don't have enough money to pay for the room and get foodstuffs.

Andrew Dodd: For these eight people, that's a total of US$64,500, that's almost AU$70,000. And many of them were lured here on a false promise. While many know that the boats to Australia have stopped, there is still great confusion about what this means. People smugglers take advantage of this. Some say their smugglers told them that the United Nations was processing claims quicker because the boats had stopped, when the very opposite seems to be the case.

Interpreter: The smugglers said to them that you should go to reach Indonesia and you just get quickly interview from UNHCR, and after that you can get to Australia by UNHCR Jakarta.

Andrew Dodd: Did the smugglers tell you how long you'd have to wait here in Indonesia?

Interpreter: No, they were told by…most of them by human smugglers that they should go and in Indonesia they can get a legal status from UNHCR Jakarta, they can quickly go legally to Australia.

Andrew Dodd: What do you feel then about the people smugglers who have told you that you'll get to Australia quickly? What do you think about those people?

Interpreter: Most of them, they are saying that their life is in danger in Afghanistan. They cannot stay a long time in Afghanistan because they are Shia, and Taliban don't like Shia. I'm always asking with my friends, why you should come to Indonesia. And the friends say that they were told by human smugglers, lied by human smugglers that once they reach Indonesia, Jakarta, they can get quickly legal status from UNHCR Jakarta. But the truth is not, the truth is, they say, we have to wait a long time here, yes. The problem of Afghanistan people, the entire countries of the world have known, they are just playing with our lives here, yes.

Andrew Dodd: Josh, who was just speaking, is an interpreter, but he's also one of the longest resident Afghan asylum seekers in Indonesia. He first arrived in the year 2000 and later returned to Afghanistan where he worked with international aid agencies before coming back to Indonesia in 2011. Along the way he's met and dealt with numerous people smugglers, many of whom are still based in Jakarta.

Josh: If I'm not wrong, more than 30. They have a lot of experience with more than 10 years they are staying in Jakarta.

Andrew Dodd: Is it an open secret who these people are, does everyone know who they are or not?

Josh: Yes, many guys they knew, but unfortunately some guys they don't want to explain about them. But I really know about them, they are from Pakistan, from Afghanistan, from Iran, from Bangladesh.

Andrew Dodd: Our powerful are these people?

Josh: In this country, if I'm not wrong, if you have money, money can talk, not you.

Andrew Dodd: Do you mean by that that they get some protection from the police for what they do?

Josh: Yes, of course, from police as well, yes.

Andrew Dodd: When you say they get protection from the police, what form does that protection take?

Josh: Safety especially, safety information, yes. If you pay the police you can safe, otherwise no. If you don't want to pay the money it means that you should take care of yourself, not police.

Andrew Dodd: Do some of these people avoid prosecution simply because they are paying bribes to the police?

Josh: Yes, of course, they must pay to bribe the police otherwise it is impossible.

Andrew Dodd: Now that they are no longer able to take people through to Australia, the Australian government would take pride saying that the business model that they used is broken. Is that true?

Josh: Yes. But, you know, human smuggler is like a businessman. Every time they are making a lie with the passengers, they are just getting money, and they just take care of money, they don't want to take care of passengers, yes.

Andrew Dodd: Were there lots of people who'd paid the people smugglers before they went, and then after the boats started being turned back lost their money?

Josh: Yes, yes, many guys, many guys. The people have lost a lot of money here. Many guys, they are sleeping outside of UNHCR office because they don't have money, they don't have money, that's why they are sleeping outside.

Andrew Dodd: The smugglers are entrepreneurs. Some have set up other businesses, while others still work in the places that thrived while the trade was at its height. Some have modified their operations, taking money from asylum seekers to transfer them into Indonesia or across the country.

Josh offered to take me to one of the places where the people smugglers operated.

So where are we now?

Josh: We are now near Sarinah.

Andrew Dodd: And we are looking at a hotel… I don't want you to name the hotel but why is this hotel so important?

Josh: It's very important because the hotel, they are keeping the passengers to get to Australia, that's why this is important for you.

Andrew Dodd: In other words, when the boats were going, this was a hotel where many of the people were staying.

Josh: So this is only one hotel, the other hotel doesn't want to accept the passengers. The only hotel has a contact with the police, with immigration, and that's why they are keeping the refugees, the passengers here.

Andrew Dodd: How do you know this?

Josh: Because I had a lot of friends here who have been here in that hotel, yes.

Andrew Dodd: And what do they tell you?

Josh: They said that if you want to stay at that hotel, nobody can come to disturb you, it means no police can come to ask you about the documents, whether you have or not, no. So they have paid to the police as well, yes, that's why the police don't want to disturb the passengers, that's why they are keeping the passengers.

Andrew Dodd: Are you telling me that this hotel that we are looking at is owned by somebody who has been very much involved in the people smuggling business.

Josh: Yes, of course, the owner of that hotel is also a human smuggler. Yes, a human smuggler, that's why. You know, without any sort of responsibility you can keep the passengers. It means that you have a contact, you have a kind of permit, a kind of bribe to give the police, that's fine, you can keep the passengers, otherwise it is impossible to keep the passengers in your hotel.

Andrew Dodd: The people smugglers have operated in Indonesia almost with impunity. What laws there are have largely gone un-enforced.

But Febi Yonesta, the director of Jakarta's Legal Aid Institute, says this is beginning to change as prosecutors are starting to pursue past cases and attempting to combat the smugglers who are still bringing people into the country.

Febi Yonesta: There is an increasing attempt to socialise people smuggling law into the Indonesian police officers.

Andrew Dodd: So what you're saying is there's a greater attempt to get the police to understand that there is a people smuggling law and to get them to use it.

Febi Yonesta: Yes. And also observe that the number of court cases regarding people smugglers is now increasing, which is not…there is no such cases before. People smugglers cannot operate themselves, there must be involvement of not only the police officers but also maybe the military, some of the people smuggling cases involving military officials.

Andrew Dodd: So are there important cases now before the Indonesian courts concerning people smugglers?

Febi Yonesta: Any of the people smuggler cases has not been so important for the Indonesian public, but regardless about the increasing number of people smugglers but also the media coverage, some of the mainstream media has tried to cover the scenario, the conspiracy of the people smuggling, but it's not being so major in the discourse. Regardless that the people smuggling cases are increasing, but it cannot really neglect the fact that asylum seekers and refugees are here in Indonesia waiting or looking for protection.

Andrew Dodd: This is the Law Report on ABC Radio National, News Radio and Radio Australia. I'm Andrew Dodd and today, the second in our series on the plight of asylum seekers in Indonesia.

There are different models for paying people smugglers. The ethnic Hazara people of Afghanistan use money changers who hold their money in trust until they have arrived safely at their destination. This process is called blocking and it means the people smugglers have a vested interest in seeing the passengers remain at least moderately safe.

When a passenger arrived at Christmas Island they made what was known as an alive call back to their home country. This triggered the transfer of funds to the smuggler. If their boat was lost at sea, the money was eventually returned to the passenger's family.

But that's not what happened to Ali. He paid his people smuggler upfront for two legs of a journey, first from Malaysia to Indonesia and then for the trip from Indonesia to Australia. This was back when the boats were still going. But unfortunately for him his boat was intercepted by the Australian navy and he was put on an orange lifeboat and sent back to Indonesia.

So now he wants his money back.

Ali: I pay him in Kuala Lumpur from Pakistan the money in his bank account, he gives me a bank account, I told to my family, money sent here in Kuala Lumpur, $6,000. From this money used from Malaysia to Australia. He tell me from Kuala Lumpur to Indonesia $1,300, after then $4,700 from Indonesia to Australia. From here you reach to Indonesia, I will take up this money, this is my money, $1,300. From Indonesia to Australia, you reach Christmas Island, this is my money. If you come back from…you not reach or something happen with you from Indonesia to Australia, I will give back your money, $4,700.

And I stay here for some months, I call him, too much time, give me back my money. But yesterday I call him, I say to him, give me back my money, he say to me, 'Fuck you, get lost,' in Pashto language, he's from Peshawar.

Andrew Dodd: What's that in Pashto?

Ali: '[Pashto language]', 'Fuck you.'

Andrew Dodd: And so he's got your money…

Ali: Yes.

AndrewDodd: He's not giving it back…

Ali: No.

Andrew Dodd: And how are you coping without the money?

Ali: My family send me 1 million…

Andrew Dodd: 1 million rupiah.

Ali: 1 million rupiah here, Indonesian $100. And I told them if you can you go to his home in Peshawar, but they tell me the situation is very bad there because we leave from our area, and we can take with his brother but his brother tell us, I'm not responsible for my brother in Malaysia or Indonesia, I not live with him, you do with him anything, I'm not responsible.

Andrew Dodd: This smuggler is the same person bringing people over from Malaysia.

Ali: Yes, he is sending the people from Malaysia to here.

Andrew Dodd: How many people around here do you think he has sent over?

Ali: I think eight, nine people I know, but the Hazara people, two families meet me there in Ciboreal, they tell me he sent us here. They live behind our home in Ciboreal.

Andrew Dodd: So this man whose name you've given me, the people smugglers don't use their real name generally.

Ali: No. When he came to us in a hotel I check his passport, I tell him I want to see his Visa. He gives me his passport, check his name, his Visa…

Andrew Dodd: And you have his contact details and his Facebook account. What do you think of this people smuggler? What's he like as a person?

Ali: No, he is not good because he has lied to people, he is sending the people…when the people reach here they have no way to go forward, and they are blocked here. They cannot go back to Malaysia because they are illegal, they cannot go back. He take up the money from people and people after then stay here some months. If they find their way they go, but if they don't find they deport from here to their countries.

Andrew Dodd: In another part of Jakarta, Josh is showing me a restaurant. He points out the owner, and later tells me he's a prominent people smuggler who for many years was the head of a large operation sending boats to Australia.

So the person has admitted to you, has he, that he is a people smuggler?

Josh: Yes. The first time I met him he said that he is a smuggler, he can send the boat, he can send the passenger to Australia, that's right.

Andrew Dodd: Do you know how many people he has sent, how many boats?

Josh: The first time when I met him he said that many guys he has sent to Australia, he said to me like this.

Andrew Dodd: What does 'many' mean? Does it mean 50 people, does it mean 100, does it mean more?

Josh: Yes, of course hundreds, could be 1,000, 500, 1,000 or 2,000 people. More than 10 boats, more than 10 boats have been sent to Australia.

Andrew Dodd: In terms of people smugglers in Indonesia, how important is he?

Josh: He can speak very well the Indonesian language. He has made a restaurant in Jakarta, especially he has a lot of contacts, that's why he can get…he has a contact with immigration here, and immigration also can give him the passengers to send them to Australia. But this is the truth, that's why I'm telling to you.

Andrew Dodd: And this is a man who lots of other people smugglers know, is he?

Josh: Yes, yes.

[Girls singing]

Andrew Dodd: As bad as the people smugglers are, for many they offer the only hope for escape. These two girls, Maliha and Madiha fled the threat of violence in Pakistan with their family, and they engaged people smugglers to reach Indonesia.

[Girls singing]

Can you tell me what that song is about?

Girl: It's about that our eyes are full of tears and you are asking about to smile, and life is so painful and you are asking to survive.

Andrew Dodd: It's a song that seems to describe your situation.

Girl: Yes, the situation of here we are staying here, that's the situation, describing our feelings.

Andrew Dodd: The girls and their family left Pakistan because their father received death threats. His name is Liaquat Ali Changezi and among the Hazara people he is well known as an actor, and that was enough to make him a target of the Taliban. For a fee, their people smugglers, or agents as they call them, helped them get to Indonesia where life is difficult but they are at least safe.

Liaquat Ali Changezi: We started our journey from Quetta on 23 December, and from Lahore we took a flight for Singapore, 25th of December, 2013, we reached there in Singapore. From Singapore we start an illegal travel to Indonesia. First we arrive in Johor Bahru, I think four, five nights spent there. And after that we start again to travel to Kuala Lumpur. Near to Kuala Lumpur there was the agent who took us from Johor Bahru to take us to the boat, and from the boat they bring us to Sumatra, and from Sumatra the next journey was from Padang airport to Jakarta. And we reach here on 9 January 2014.

Andrew Dodd: Why did you leave Quetta? What was the reason that you brought all of your family from Pakistan to Indonesia?

Liaquat Ali Changezi: Actually targeted killing of Hazara people and especially Hazara Shia people in Quetta regularly from many years, for the last eight, nine years until now, more than 2,000 people are killed by the terrorist people from Al Qaeda and from Lashkar -e-Jhangvi.

So especially they are targeting the famous people who was living there, and I was working with the television as an actor, as a performer, in the radio also, at Radio Pakistan, in Pakistan television, making a drama serial. So I was famous in my tribe. So I received one call in 2008 'we are going to kill you', so after that I left Pakistan to go to Afghanistan for three or four years. I was working over there. But I have no choice to come back to my family because of my daughters, my sons, they are growing. Again, the same situation was there. A lot of my friends say it's no place for you to live.

Andrew Dodd: Can I ask you, can you go back to Pakistan, can you go back to another part of Pakistani where there isn't danger for the Hazara?

Liaquat Ali Changezi: Yes, actually I tried to work in Karachi, I tried to work in Lahore because there is a main industry in Lahore and Karachi. My friends who were working in the media, my friends who were working in the television industry, they told me for the other people who were Shias, they can't recognise you because Hazara is recognised from faces so far, it looks like a Chinese face, they knows from their eyes, so they directly hit you. They know that you are Hazara and they will hit you.

Andrew Dodd: Liaquat Ali Changezi.

Meanwhile one of the eight young people we met earlier who recently arrived in Jakarta is now having to reassess his options after believing that his journey from Afghanistan would lead, before too long, to Australia.

Interpreter: He said that his passport, first he got visa from India, and from India he take a plane to Malaysia, and from Malaysia illegally entered in Indonesia by boat. And now he doesn't know the human smuggler. He says he doesn't want to stay a long time in Indonesia because he said if I stay long time here it means that I am spoiling my life. That's why he decided to leave Indonesia for Australia, but he doesn't know how to reach Australia, but he wants to use the boat, by boat.

Andrew Dodd: So did you know before you came that the boats had stopped to Australia?

Interpreter: His agent told him to only reach in Indonesia, it doesn't matter, you can get accepted by UNHCR within six months or one year, you can go legally by UNHCR Jakarta, yes. His agent just told him like this, yes. His agent told him that within two months you can get accepted by UNHCR.

Andrew Dodd: Two months?

Interpreter: Two months, yes, two months.

Andrew Dodd: Are you aware that it's likely to take years rather than months?

Interpreter: He said he supposes it's a long time to stay in Indonesia, and maybe he can go back to Afghanistan.

Andrew Dodd: Will he face danger if he goes back to Afghanistan?

Interpreter: Yes, 100% risky life in Afghanistan if he goes back to Afghanistan. If he stays a long time in Afghanistan maybe he will be killed by Taliban.

Damien Carrick: A young Afghan asylum seeker who has just recently arrived in Indonesia, speaking there with journalist Andrew Dodd.

That's the Law Report for today. Thanks to producer Anita Barraud and also to audio engineer Mark Vear. Do visit us online at abc.net.au/rn, there you can find audio on demand, podcast and transcripts. You can also catch the Law Report as a podcast on iTunes. I'm Damien Carrick, talk to you next week with more law.