Not even an argument. TD is the best PF of alltime, Kobe isnt the best SG of alltime. Its because TD isnt a guard, and plays in a small market that no one talks about this guy as an alltime great. Huge mistake by those people, too.

" Tell me that duncan or anyone would have won with a starting 5 of luke walton, kwame brown, lamar odom and smuch parker and no bench? "

Lebron got a team like that to 66 wins, as opposed to Kobe barely getting into the postseason before LITTERALLY quitting in game 7 vs PHX.

Yea, Kobes a great leader. First off, he wasnt the leader for the first 3 titles. And the "2nd phase" of his career was just his teams being mediocre and failures. Then, in acquiring the best PF in the league, he rose to the occasion.

Its funny how Kobe hasnt won an NBA title without the best bigman in the league on his team. Duncan's 2nd options were a washed up Robinson in 99, a young Tony Parker in 03, Ginobli in 05 and Parker again in 07. Duncan was the man. Kobe was nothing more than a sidekick. Even his two alpha dog titles....the first was against an Orlando team that had no business being in the finals, the 2nd he put up an alltime stinker in game 7. This guy is not better than Duncan. Its not even reasonably arguable when you look at it unbiasly. Notice how LAKER fans are the ONLY ones who think Kobe is better than Duncan.

Duncan might be the most consistent player in league history...There havent been many players that came into the NBA and made 1st team ALL NBA as a rookie....But there are those that will say Shaq was more dominate than Duncan...And there are those that will say Kobe rode Shaq's coattail to a few rings...So was Shaq better than Duncan & Kobe?

without shaq kobe wouldnt have gotten those first 3 rings, and without kobe shaq wouldnt have gotten his first 3 rings either.... so plain and simple.., true shaq was the leader of that team, kobe was the robin, but is that kobes fault???

its very hard to compare duncan and kobe... both guys play different positions, and were in different situations... different styles of play, etc. i will say this, from the years 98-2005, give me duncan, from the years 2006-present, give me kobe

and saying kobe cant lead a team...... R U INSANE???!!!! maybe because winning two championships in a row as the teams leader isnt like a big deal... okay...

He was of course older and more ready when he entered the NBA but from Day 1, a cornerstone.

Kobe was a sidekick, its not debatable. He was the #2 guy for the 3-peat.

Duncan was an All-Star his ROOKIE season. All-NBA for pretty much every season, save for one or two injury-plagued seasons.

Duncan will never get the credit he rightly deserves, maybe because he doesnt yell, bark, or make a fool of himself off the court like others have.

He will be remembered for Winning from day 1 and being the anchor for 4 titles.

As great as Kobe is, he is on the record for demanding a trade, Colorado tarnished his squeaky clean image, and the 2004 season that led to the Shaq trade and the mediocre seasons from 05-07 where he averaged 30+

I agree about Gasol, but that has alot to do with the fact memphis was bad. Kobe bryant has never been a player who makes others around him better, except the part where the defense is keying on bryant. So though Kobe opened up some looks for Gasol, its not like Kobe was feeding him the ball. Also, Shaq O Neal was the best player on the planet 00-02. He could have won the title with other elite swingmen, Kobe was not winning those 3 with any other big man.

Kobe made Gasol the best PF in the game no yeah he helped though. When Gasol came to the Lakers he was 27 and playing on an below avg. Grizzlies team at the age of 27. Now he's 30 playing on a team stacked with talent.

You could say the Lakers coaching and system helped, all the experts say Gasol fit like a glove into the system.

Watch Gasol's skills, footwork, passing and offensive aresenal etc. that has nothing to do with Kobe.

Gasol is a great rebounder what does that have to do with Kobe he averages 5 asts a game not 8 or 10. We all know Kobe is a great player but he doesn't make Gasol the best PF in the league.

Kobe really makes role player much better, Kobe is a great player becaz of his scoring and clutch shot mainly not becaz of his passing, rebounding and intangibles. I get the feeling some Kobe fans think he's the greatest of all time, if so your wrong. You probably haven't seen the best players in the game during their prime years. Don't just go by rings all the best players have multiple rings.

The Jazz did the right thing in letting Fisher out of his contract but its just another way the Lakers were helped out the Gasol trade was another.

Duncan played with two all star BUT Kobe played with hall of famers. First off, Parker was never a top 3 point guard in the NBA. Manu ( so far this season) has never been a top 3 SG until this season. Kobe played with Shaq.

Kobe Bryant is still the Alpha Dog of his team. Still an elite player. Can anyone say anything about that. And I've been looking for the exact quote, but Pops himself was quoted as saying that Kobe Bryant is the best leader in the game. As did Alvin Gentry and Doc Rivers. I think NBA players and coaches have a little better idea about this stuff.

Tim Duncan has played with Tony Parker, Manu Ginobli, Richard Jefferson, and David Robinson. So two of the greatest European's to ever play in the NBA and a top 10 center of all time. Yeah Duncan has never played with anybody.

Don't even get me started on 05-07. Lebron could win with those guys i beg to differ. The man has played with 4 players who had been all-stars in the past 4 years. Kwame Brown was possibly the biggest bust of all time, Smush Parker was able to look like a stud at times and was out of the league when he played with bron and was back out after he left Kobe and joined Wade. And Kobe at least was out there in game 7 against the Suns TRYING to do something such as creating for others. He got the team there and the Suns were able to just play off of guys. When you have two 12th men and a D-Leaguer starting, while having Brian Cook and Sasha Vujacic as key role players, you probably should have never been there to begin. Kobe exceeded all odds that year.

Everyone wants to talk about Duncan as if he's still a 20-10 guy when he just isn't.No one wants to account for the fact that father time is truely starting to show with Timmy to the point that he's commenting on it. Was michael Jordan not a great leader, because he posses the EXACT leadership qualities that Kobe does, even more so to the point that he ACTUALLY punched Steve Kerr.

Last thought, what was the point in even trying to bring Lebron up when he himself will tell you he's no Kobe.

I have to go with Kobe, his drive and killer instinct is unmatched in todays NBA. The man lives and breathes basketball and will do anything to win. He is also one of the most clutch players to ever play in the NBA, there is not one guy in the league right now I'd rather have taking the last shot. When he wins another ring this year it will cement his place as greatest of all time, in my opinion. I still say the early 2000 years Shaq had were the most dominating I've ever seen. There was no one who could come close to stopping him, the way he could get off the ground so fast at his size was unreal. He made Dikembe Mutombo look like a child in the finals they played against the Sixers, and that was when Mutombo was considered a game changing defensive player, and winning all types of awards for it.

First off, Duncan played with a AGING Robinson. Let's not act like he was in his 20's bruh. Tony Parker didn't come on until 2004 playoffs ( Proved by the fact the Spurs were willing to move Parker for Jason Kidd) and Manu was always good not great until 2007 ( always stepped up in the playoffs)

Kobe played with a in prime Shaq. So ALL of Duncan's part in his titles years were NOT better then Shaq.

"Kobe was a better talent, but there is a reason the cast around Tim Duncan has been interchangeable with the results basically staying the same."

The cast around Tim Duncan has been interchangeable, but the core has remained intact. Greg Poppovich, Tony Parker and Manu Ginobli. Duncan has never gone through a true rebuilding mode. The Spurs have just kept surrounding their Big Three with quality role players who fit the team's system.

Kobe and the Lakers went through a rebuilding mode. Does anybody remember Chris Mihm, Marcus Banks, Chucky Atkins, Kwame Brown, Laron Profit, Brian Cook and Vladmir Radmanovic? What about Jumaine Jones and Tierre Brown? I know y'all remember Smush Parker. From 2004-2007, Kobe's supporting cast was terrible, yet he led that team to the playoffs 2/3 times.

I understand that Indiana but Duncan never played with another top 10 guy. I'd argue had he play with a Ray Allen, he would have had more titles. The main 3 were in tact but they lost a couple players they needed over the years in ( David Robinson, Malik Rose, Stephen Jackson) AND they had many "last run" guys in Steve Smith, Danny Ferry, Steve Kerr, Kevin Willis.

I'll say this, look at Parker's and Manu's numbers, there alright. Once they hit thier primes, they only won 2 titles. Why? You can have 3 dudes but the role players have been tough to put around Duncan. When I look at Kobe, I don't see that. I see "We need a star next to him". I feel if he took Shaq from Kobe, we'd argue he wasn't as good as we think.

Let's just ignore that Tim Duncan played with David Robinson, a Hall of Famer, for the first six years of his NBA career. And I also don't think you're giving Tony Parker and Manu Ginobli due credit. Tony Parker is an NBA Finals MVP.

And let's be real here... Pau Gasol wasn't a superstar when he was traded to the Lakers. He was an All-Star caliber big man, but not an superstar. Another thing to note, is that the Lakers were the best team in the West before they made that trade.

Pau Gasol proved to be a all star. He was a legit 20-10 big. To me, Pau is a hall of famer and a top 100 player all time right now. Pau lead Memphis to 50 wins seasons and playoff berths with Shane Battier, Mike Miller and Jay Williams as his 2-3-4. Don't underrate Gasol.

David Robinson was declining. He was 32 when Duncan came into the league and QUICKLY fell into the background once they won the title in 1999 and Duncan got Finals MVP. I gave Manu credit. I just wonder what would have happened if he came in at 23 instead of 26. He was good offensively late but isn't a great defender late. Parker didn't come on until 2004, he was alright in 03 but the Spurs did throw money to Jason Kidd so he didn't impress early. Parker honestly got confident and KILLED Nash in their playoff series which got him respect. He's good.

If you swap Shaq with a guy on Manu or Parker's level: Do the Lakers win ONE title? Do they get to a title? I don't think so. That's the thing, without Robinson: Duncan still wins the 99 title and 03 title. Robinson was a piece but Duncan was the MAN who lead them to title. Shaq was the MDE while Kobe was the Robin in LA.

You should just stop and remove yourself from this conversation. Your opinions are biased. You clearly must dislike Kobe.

A washed up Robinson in 99? IF you call averaging 16 points, 10 rebounds and over 2 blocks washed up, then I don't know what to tell you.

"Even his two alpha dog titles....the first was against an Orlando team that had no business being in the finals"

Seriously lol? But you're ignoring the title the Spurs won against the 8th seeded Knicks in the lockout season??? And you're ignoring the title vs the Cavs, who came out of a terrible Eastern Conference?

Kobe had Shaq and the merry minimums in the first three peat. And let's not act as if it was all Shaq and Kobe was just a side note. Kobe was putting up 30, 7, and 6 in those years. He was just as important to that title run as Shaq seeing as though it was Kobe out there making play. Are you going to act as if Ginobli isn't as impactful as Pau.

Tony parker has made all star teams and even a finals appearance. Why? because it was HIM, not Duncan who was the reason they won it that year. Like someone said, Duncan has had the same core of himself and two all stars. The best Kobe was given was an inconsistent Lamar Odom who time and time again failed to live up to expectations and a Caron Butler who was at the time by no means ready to compete for a title.

Pau Gasol became great with Kobe. His teams were never terrible save for the year he was traded. Consistently the Grizlies were around 4-6 seed but yet could never get a SINGLE playoff victory. Eddie Jones,Shane Battier, Mighty Mouse, James Posey, Lorenzen Wright, Jason Williams prime, and a few others i can't think of right off hand. Pau Gasol NEEDED a Kobe to lead him. Now after a few years with Bryant, Gasol has become a 2 time defending champ, 3 finals appearances and even a mild mean streak.

Back to Duncan, and co., yes the Admiral wasn't Exactly prime any longer, but he WAS an above avg. starting big. Stephen Jackson, Hedo Turkoglu, Tony Parker, and Manu Ginobli. All All stars who have played with Tim in their Primes.

how do you know kobe couldnt be succesful without another superstar? He only had 3 seasons of not having another superstyar, and he didnt even have a team. FOrget superstars, give him just a decent cast and who knows what kobe could have done. Has duncan ver won without all-stars aorund him? Nope, so shy should we judge kobe without all-stars so harshly? Oh yeah, and for the 100th time, kobe had the lakers in first place BEFORE the pau trade went down.

the spurs thourhghout the 90's with david robinson leading them between 1990-1996 won 67% of their games. They were one of the most stable frnachises and well run frnchises out there. Duncan joined a great franchise that was already a winner and he took it over and alaways had help around him at every point in his career. The only time kobe wasnt as succesful was when he had no help, somehting duncan can never say he went through.

And like i brought up earlier. Tim hasnt won a single playoff game past the first round in the last 2 seasons while kobe is winning titles. Or do we just cut this whole debate off as soon as tim started slowing down?

Duncan is probably the greatest power forward ever (Malone is right there though) and there's nothing wrong with picking him over Kobe, but let's try to make sense.

IF you'd have swapped Shaq with a big man at the All-Star caliber level of Ginobli or Parker, I still think Kobe gets a title. And to be honest, I think that's what Pau was when he was traded to the Lakers. Just an All-Star caliber big man. He wasn't anything special. He didn't enter superstar discussion (I still don't think he's a bonafied superstar) until he teamed up with Kobe and Phil. It's EASY to see that Kobe and Phil have rubbed off on him. He's a much better player since playing for Memphis and in the 2008 Finals.

knicksboy, kobe has stars around him. SO does tim. I dont get where you are going with that argument. Sure shaq is a better teammate then duncan ever had, but kobe also never had anything close to a third option all-star in his earlier days. Robert horry was probably the third best player on those earlier teams. Tim has another all-star as his third best teammate. Some are saying manu is the mvp of the nba right now. Parker was a top 5 pg and won the finals mvp award. 1 superstar (if you wanna call pau a superstar) vs having 2 all-stars (parker and manu). Seems pretty even to me. Also, when kobe has a superstar next to him, he has gone further in the playoffs every year but once (2003).

I never thought I'd hear the day Shannon Brown was mentioned as making a cast superstar studded. That's pretty good considering he couldn't get PT with LeBron's Cavs and was a bench warmer on Larry Brown's Bobcats.

kobe has stars around him. SO does tim. I dont get where you are going with that argument. Sure shaq is a better teammate then duncan ever had, but kobe also never had anything close to a third option all-star in his earlier days

-When you have two of the top 5...do you need a 3rd all star?

Robert horry was probably the third best player on those earlier teams. Tim has another all-star as his third best teammate. Some are saying manu is the mvp of the nba right now. Parker was a top 5 pg and won the finals mvp award. 1 superstar (if you wanna call pau a superstar) vs having 2 all-stars (parker and manu). Seems pretty even to me. Also, when kobe has a superstar next to him, he has gone further in the playoffs every year but once (2003).

-For one, Parker DID NOT earn that Finals MVP. He was not the best player in the finals. He was getting all his shots off the fact Cleveland doubled Duncan. I hate when people bring that up because if you watched that, you'd knew that's the case.

Let's go deeper into those rotation

Gasol-Odom ( who you said should get a ASG bid earlier in the year)- Bynum- Brown-Barnes-Blake-Parker

I never thought I'd hear the day Shannon Brown was mentioned as making a cast superstar studded. That's pretty good considering he couldn't get PT with LeBron's Cavs and was a bench warmer on Larry Brown's Bobcats.

But San Antonio has been a more stable enviornment the last 15 years (same coach, same style of play) They are like the New England of the NBA. While LA is like the Cowboys annoying fans annoying players lol jk but they have so much star power stuff happens where they have down years because things arent always stable....

However, I think Kevin Garnett is better than Tim Duncan. If you put KG on the Spurs he would have 4+ titles

Edit: Someone of you its obvious you are young and never understood the game when some of these players where playing in the late 90s early 00s

He was never given a chance to ball with some real players and when he did.....Conference finals. Im not trynna argue but its just what I think he is a better passer and I like the intensity he brings to a team

knicksboy, you keep saying kobe has 2 superstars but since those 2 never played together, i dont get why you keep saying hes had 2 vs tims only having 2 all-stars. If we want to talk about entire careers, then tim has sean elliot and david robinson and manu and tony. ALso i felt tony earned the mvp award that finals.

As for current rosters, yes kobe has the better team. But bynum has been injured and still is getting back . But when you factor in that kobe has won 2 straight titles with his better supporting cast while tim hasnt won a single game past the first round in the last 2 years, i would say kobe is doing exactly what he should be with that talent. SO not sure how that you can knock him for it.

First off, don't abuse the - thing to get around cursing. Second, it IS close because they are both top 2 or 3 at their respective positions and have both won multiple championships in the same era as each other. I personally don't believe that you can pick which one is the better player because it is impossible to compare a HOF PF to a HOF SG. Just like comparing Jordan to LeBron, completely different players. Think about this thou, imagine if Kobe and TD would of played together during their careers!

Knicksboy1, it isn't a fair argument to say switch Shaq with a Parker or Ginobli because that's pretty obvious they are nowhere near his level. But the two of them TOGETHER is incredible. Kobe has had to be the Jordan and Pippen for his team. NO one and I mean NO one has the same kind of responsibilities as Kobe. Certainly not Duncan. Lebron with the Cavs is the only other player who did this, and that is simply because he doesn't know how to play any other way and he ain't winning &$#%#&@!.

i would side with duncan over KG. I never felt particulalry confident runing the offense through KG as the number 1 option in the playoffs with the big games on the line. But KG could do all the little things just as well tim. But tim could either get his own offense or draw double teams and make his teammates get easier looks on a much more consistent basis then kg ever could.

In all of Kobe's career, he only played 3 seasons without a legit superstar player next to him. Like I said, Duncan never played with a top 100 player in his career compared to Kobe's two. If you wanna go with just off the whole careers of Duncan and Kobe...I feel Kobe has had better teammates.

Current rosters...Kobe has better talent, far and away yet your bringing up Duncan hasn't won titles, or gotten to them. So what are you saying? You expect the guy with less talent to beat the guy with the better, more talented team? I understand that Tim hasn't gotten a win in round 2 in 2 years but I would say that's the lack of talent on that team. After the main 4, it's Gary Neal getting PT, George Hill as a 6th man, Blair as a man off the bench. Don't know about you...I think Barnes, Blake, Odom, Artest are better then those Spurs I previously named.

Of course right now Kobe's better but for a career and for creating a team, I'd go Tim Duncan.

I also think Duncan was a better paint protector (better shot blocker). He also wanted to actually play in the paint. I used to get tired of KG shooting jumpshots and playing the top of the key of the 1-3-1 lol.