My guess is that wherever it goes that the first couple of years will be well attended but that they would never sustain it over a long period like Dayton has. So maybe the NCAA wants to move it around to capitalize on the excitement of it the first couple of years at each place and then move on to a new locale. I hope they keep it at UD because there is no better place for it and it is a nice way to get additional press for the school and the basketball team.

If Dayton would lose the First 4, I could see the NCAA giving Dayton 1st and 2nd round games a couple of years. I know they typically like using larger arenas now, but UD technically still meets that capacity requirements to host the first and second round. That could be the consolation prize for losing the first 4.

I don't like it but it appears to me to be taking from a stadium associated with a college and a small city to a big event type stadium owned by a municipality or public entity. Unfortunately, facts, numbers and attendance notwithstanding, I don't think that once transferred that the first four will never return to UD. They will just keeping moving it around to different big city locations. I would not be surprised to see the NCAA scheduling first four teams located within travelling distance of new locations. It's all about the money and appearances.

I don't think anyone would do a better job with it than what Dayton has done. Having said that, I do think it'd be better if they just played it at whatever site the game is playing into. Even if they had to play on back to back nights, I think most teams would rather play two games in two days at one place than play two games in three days at two places. Plus, as far as the fans of the teams go, it'd be better for them to not have to travel to two different cities.

I don't think they're going to move it out of Dayton, though. If they're gonna do it this way, then Dayton is probably the best place to have it.

I don't think anyone would do a better job with it than what Dayton has done. Having said that, I do think it'd be better if they just played it at whatever site the game is playing into. Even if they had to play on back to back nights, I think most teams would rather play two games in two days at one place than play two games in three days at two places. Plus, as far as the fans of the teams go, it'd be better for them to not have to travel to two different cities.

I don't think they're going to move it out of Dayton, though. If they're gonna do it this way, then Dayton is probably the best place to have it.

I don't see your suggestion as viable from a ticket sales standpoint. Teams and sites announced on Sunday night gives no time for ticket sales. UD works year round to fill the Arena for those games. It would be embarrassing for the NCAA and teams to play in front of a couple thousand fans at most. To make it work, the NCAA would have to put some of their cards on the table like letting certain sites know in advance that they will have a 1 vs 16 seed game or a 5 vs 12 game. I don't see that happening.

I don't see your suggestion as viable from a ticket sales standpoint. Teams and sites announced on Sunday night gives no time for ticket sales. UD works year round to fill the Arena for those games. It would be embarrassing for the NCAA and teams to play in front of a couple thousand fans at most. To make it work, the NCAA would have to put some of their cards on the table like letting certain sites know in advance that they will have a 1 vs 16 seed game or a 5 vs 12 game. I don't see that happening.

The schools would sell more tickets, but you're right about the rest of the crowd. The overall attendance would go down big time.

The problem is this. The schools essentially learn that they're in on Sunday night, and then they get their ticket allotment, and if they're playing on Tuesday they basically have about four hours to sell them before they have to return them, which is very hard to do on one day's notice. I think that the participating schools would have better luck selling tickets if they were all in the same location, because from what I understand most fans who plan on traveling wait until after the First Four game.

To your point, if they did it at the sites for the Round of 64/32 games, they would almost have to do something similar to what baseball does and basically have a 'ticket if necessary' for those that buy the full package, but even then it would probably be a sparse crowd for the two 16 v 16 games.

Attendance numbers won't amount to anything based on the teams playing...UD puts butts in the seats with season ticket holders. There are usually enough interest in at least one of the teams each night to pull in fans. I sold tickets to a KState fan this year. When the teams are coming from far away, you better have a local fan base that can fill the seats. USC fans aren't chomping at the bit to take tickets off your hands. You have to find a local fan that has some interest.

Now...you pull a team or two within a 4-8 hour drive of the venue...you are talking demand for tickets.

__________________
The lion doesn't lose sleep over the opinion of sheep.

Per NCAA
ē Dayton will continue to host the NCAA First Four through at least 2022, as it has served as the site for the start of the Division I menís basketball tournament since 2001. University of Dayton Arena has hosted 117 menís basketball tournament games, the most of any facility.

DUQUESNE
Duquesne University is a private, coeducational university, in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania located on 48 secluded acres, on a bluff above downtown. Founded in 1878 as a Catholic college by the Order of the Holy Spirit. It is the only Spiritan institution of higher education in the world. Duquesne offers 10 schools of study and 100 degree programs to 6,000 undergraduates and 3,800 graduate students. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Dukes.

Frankly, the missed the boat when they didn't put a retractable roof on Paul Brown Stadium that would have allowed them to have all kinds of large scale events no matter the weather considerations, while still being able to open up the roof and host football games in good weather, similar to what the Colts, Cardinals and others have done.

I wonder what the deadline for having the improvements in place are? I'd assume UD Arena is a potential contingency plan as well, but if they want to keep it local, I'd think they could also consider Rupp Arena, the Pacer's home court in Indy or Nationwide arena in C'Bus.

Edit: forgot about the YUM center as mentioned above, which would also work as a regional option.

Not sure I'm happy with keeping the First Four if it means never getting to host 1st/2nd round games again.

I agree. Did the NCAA or UD or someone say this, or is it just speculation on your part? I think arena seating capacity has more to do with it though, plus the fact Indy, Columbus, and Louisville have all built arenas in the past 10 to 15 years that are well suited to host such events, with at least 6K more seats available.

I agree. Did the NCAA or UD or someone say this, or is it just speculation on your part? I think arena seating capacity has more to do with it though, plus the fact Indy, Columbus, and Louisville have all built arenas in the past 10 to 15 years that are well suited to host such events, with at least 6K more seats available.

You got it. To me the kicker is that the NCAA may sell more tickets at these other arenas but I bet actual attendance would be better at UD Arena.

I agree. Did the NCAA or UD or someone say this, or is it just speculation on your part? I think arena seating capacity has more to do with it though, plus the fact Indy, Columbus, and Louisville have all built arenas in the past 10 to 15 years that are well suited to host such events, with at least 6K more seats available.

I think capacity is the biggest issue, but even if UD Arena were the same size all three of those sites are better for hosting tournament games. They are all in downtown areas with hotels, restaurants, and bars in very close proximity. UD Arenas location simply does not have those things. In all 3 places I could park my car for the weekend if I wanted to and walk everywhere I needed to go. For games at UD Arena I would have to drive everywhere because there are only 2 hotels within walking distance and those rooms wouldn't be available to the general public because the NCAA would reserve them for teams, press, etc.

The selection committee, the same committee that selects and seeds the teams, also picks the sites and the hosts. I'm not a big conspiracy theorist when it comes to what teams are selected (that doesn't always mean I agree, but I don't think it's all that political). However, when it comes to this, I kinda am. I noticed that with the exception of South Carolina, Kentucky and NC State, none of the venues are on campus. There are cases such as Louisville, Creighton, Marquette, Georgetown, and a few others who will be hosting on their home floors, but Creighton's AD is now the chairman, Kentucky's AD is on the committee, and there are ACC representatives on the Committee as well. Those are also on par with NBA and NHL arenas. So, while it's not exclusively at NBA and NHL arenas, it's about 90 percent that.

There is no rule that prohibits Dayton from hosting games in the Rounds of 64/32 if they're hosting the First Four. In fact, they've done it before. I believe they've done it more than once. I personally don't think that had anything to do with it.

Last, and certainly not least, hosting sucks. It really does. Your own team can't play there, so there is a good chance that if your school is in the tournament you won't get to go with the team because you'll be stuck at home doing event management. You're basically the NCAA's butlers. And, in return for doing this, you get nothing. I wouldn't want to host. Some schools always bid on it. Others never do, and probably never will. My thinking is in line with the latter category.

Bars should not matter, remember the NCAA Nazis won't let UD sell beer during the tournament, so why should they promote drinking before or after games when they can not get their cut of the profits?

They aren't promoting it, but they are in the entertainment business. They want fans to have a good experience outside of the actual games too, and they know fans like beer. For example my group got to Indy at around noon this year. We checked into our hotel, went to a bar, got lunch and a few drinks, and bought $20 dollar seats for the afternoon session on stubhub. We watched the 2nd half of the first game in the arena and left about midway through the 2nd half of the second game. We walked back to the hotel refreshed ourselves and charged our phones before heading back out. We went to a different bar and had a few more drinks and then stopped at an outdoor lot across the street from the arena and grabbed a last beer before going in for the game. We had a great day excluding the outcome of the game. A similar type of day can't be had at UD Arena.

They aren't promoting it, but they are in the entertainment business. They want fans to have a good experience outside of the actual games too. For example my group got to Indy at around noon this year. We checked into our hotel, went to a bar, got lunch and a few drinks, and bought $20 dollar seats for the afternoon session on stubhub. We watched the 2nd half of the first game in the arena and left about midway through the 2nd half of the second game. We walked back to the hotel refreshed ourselves and charged our phones before heading back out. We went to a different bar and had a few more drinks and then stopped at an outdoor lot across the street from the arena and grabbed a last beer before going in for the game. We had a great day excluding the outcome of the game. A similar type of day can't be had at UD Arena.

I know, was just being sarcastic aimed at NCAA for not allowing beer sales at the event itself.

The selection committee, the same committee that selects and seeds the teams, also picks the sites and the hosts. I'm not a big conspiracy theorist when it comes to what teams are selected (that doesn't always mean I agree, but I don't think it's all that political).

Well, I am a very big conspiracy theorist when it comes to this. Look at the recent selections of UCLA and Syracuse. Neither one at all belonged in the NCAAT.

Originally Posted by xubrew

You're basically the NCAA's butlers. And, in return for doing this, you get nothing.

You get paid to host, correct?

Also, there is the economic boost for your school/city/region and the media exposure for your school/city/region.

This is very hard to believe:

So how much money does each of these cities tend to profit for hosting such notable games? The answer, according to a study done by the Department of Economics at the College of Holy Cross, is not much. In fact, cities that go all out trying to earn the accolade of being a host city could end up losing money.

“The economic impact for host cities for the year the event is hosted is on average small and negative for the NCAA Men’s Final Four…The sum of the evidence indicates that cities ought to exercise restraint in undertaking public spending to host the NCAA Final Four,” said Victor Matheson and Robert Baade, who worked on the study.

What trouble? What issues do you hear about at any NCAA event that makes the news? Tell me one. No, I'm not talking about after a team wins the NCAA and all couches go up in flames or some of the student clowns like at UD that celebrate incessantly after watching them on TV win a big game...Strictly talking about issues at the venue and/or right around it.

Last, and certainly not least, hosting sucks. It really does. Your own team can't play there, so there is a good chance that if your school is in the tournament you won't get to go with the team because you'll be stuck at home doing event management.

UD has staff that is forced to do this already. There are plenty of people that are forced to head back to Dayton from wherever the men's team is playing...or come into the away venue late due to something going on at the Arena. UD has enough staff to cover the duties with an away game and have enough people on hand every year. It may suck for those employees, but the revenue generation and good publicity is the plus. Arena staff can handle the game day at UD while the athletics administrators do what they have to do with the team. They do it all the time.

I agree with other's above. UD's problem hosting past the First Four is what other big city venues don't have to worry about. Decent food, lodging, entertainment, and bars within walking distance or a 2 second Uber ride from the venue. UD is VERY limited in this capacity and the surrounding area. I want to park my ride for the day and walk. Anything on campus that is close is packed to the gills with just a portion of the fans.

__________________
The lion doesn't lose sleep over the opinion of sheep.

Also, there is the economic boost for your school/city/region and the media exposure for your school/city/region.

This is very hard to believe:

So how much money does each of these cities tend to profit for hosting such notable games? The answer, according to a study done by the Department of Economics at the College of Holy Cross, is not much. In fact, cities that go all out trying to earn the accolade of being a host city could end up losing money.

“The economic impact for host cities for the year the event is hosted is on average small and negative for the NCAA Men’s Final Four…The sum of the evidence indicates that cities ought to exercise restraint in undertaking public spending to host the NCAA Final Four,” said Victor Matheson and Robert Baade, who worked on the study.

I don't know what's so hard to believe about schools actually losing money. They typically do. You're lucky if you make back what you spend on it. You're talking about thousands of people, not hundreds of thousands. After the participating schools and the corporate sponsors get their share of the ticket allotment, there really isn't much left for whoever's hosting, and they have to give a cut to the NCAA of what is left. A school like UD would make more money, by far, off of a buy game than they would off of hosting an NCAA Tournament game. If for no other reason than the crowd is about the same, but at a buy game it's all yours. At an NCAA Tournament game almost none of it is.

They move in to your place, tell you what to do, make sure that everything you have is at their immediate disposal, and then take all of the money for themselves. That's pretty much what hosting entails.

UD has staff that is forced to do this already. There are plenty of people that are forced to head back to Dayton from wherever the men's team is playing...or come into the away venue late due to something going on at the Arena. UD has enough staff to cover the duties with an away game and have enough people on hand every year. It may suck for those employees, but the revenue generation and good publicity is the plus. Arena staff can handle the game day at UD while the athletics administrators do what they have to do with the team. They do it all the time.

I agree with other's above. UD's problem hosting past the First Four is what other big city venues don't have to worry about. Decent food, lodging, entertainment, and bars within walking distance or a 2 second Uber ride from the venue. UD is VERY limited in this capacity and the surrounding area. I want to park my ride for the day and walk. Anything on campus that is close is packed to the gills with just a portion of the fans.

What revenue generation and publicity?

Do you even know which school hosted the Final Four this year without looking it up?? If I were to ask you which cities, and more specifically which schools, hosted the NCAA Tournament that ended just three weeks ago, would you even be able to name half of them??

I hear all this talk about the publicity you get for hosting. You get one little itty bitty logo on the floor. It's in a spot that unless you know it's there, you won't even notice that it's there. No one knows who the host schools are. Half the people at the games don't even know who the host schools are. People know who the teams are that are playing, but not who's hosting. Dayton played in Indianapolis. I didn't see one word on this board about who the two hosts were at any point. Do you even know who the two hosts were without looking it up??

I'm not saying this to pick on you. I'm saying it to prove a point. The vast majority of the people at the games probably didn't notice who was hosting. So, there really isn't any publicity.

I hear all this talk about the publicity you get for hosting. You get one little itty bitty logo on the floor.

While you're correct that the NCAA doesn't pay host sites, there is revenue generation for the local economy by way of hotels, restaurants, bars, tourist attractions, etc. And the hosts get concession revenue. It may not be a ton of money, but host cities generally do better than break even. Host universities, maybe not so much. The Forbes story linked below isn't packed with details, but it does summarize -- with figures -- the boost to local economies.

And while I agree there isn't a ton of publicity value, I'd venture to say Dayton gets some benefit by way of all the advance talk they get leading up to selection Sunday and the First Four. I'd wager more people know where the First Four is held than, say, the Final Four in 2016. There's value in that long-term commitment to Dayton.

Do you even know which school hosted the Final Four this year without looking it up?? If I were to ask you which cities, and more specifically which schools, hosted the NCAA Tournament that ended just three weeks ago, would you even be able to name half of them??

I hear all this talk about the publicity you get for hosting. You get one little itty bitty logo on the floor. It's in a spot that unless you know it's there, you won't even notice that it's there. No one knows who the host schools are. Half the people at the games don't even know who the host schools are. People know who the teams are that are playing, but not who's hosting. Dayton played in Indianapolis. I didn't see one word on this board about who the two hosts were at any point. Do you even know who the two hosts were without looking it up??

I'm not saying this to pick on you. I'm saying it to prove a point. The vast majority of the people at the games probably didn't notice who was hosting. So, there really isn't any publicity.

The Fly addresses many points. Dayton gets plenty of press during the FF games. More so than any other host site. I know the host site was IUPUI...and that is only because I was there and looked. For the FF games, all basketball eyes that care are on the TV watching one game. The later games and site specific mentions are watered down due to a half dozen games being on at any given time. This isn't about a 4 foot x 4 foot logo on the baseline. If the Dayton area had half of the amenities near the Arena that other venues have, the economic impact would be much greater. The current economic impact is greater than shuttering the Arena for the week.

This also isn't about UD itself making millions off of hosting. The area sees a direct financial impact. That is obviously good. Even if it is a wash financially, it is good for UD and the Dayton region.

The "inconvenience" for UD staff to have the arena "tournament ready" is pretty minor in the scheme of things. They have it down to a science. You mention losing money. If Xavier went to host for the first time, they are going to have a ton of costs associated with Cintas meeting the needs of the NCAA. UD meets those needs year in and year out and they sit in the back of a semi in the off season...ready to be put back in place season after season. The reason I say this is that the costs to "re-host" are much less than a venue that has to do it all for the first time. From covering up commercial logos, putting in courtside media seating, having a press room a few feet from the locker rooms, pre-cut carpeting laid all over the "behind the scenes" areas, etc....it is neat undertaking to see...but it isn't as tough for UD to carry out.

The staff that is involved in preparing the arena are typically full time employees, student interns, etc. No extra cost. The workers for concessions are volunteers. Interior security are part time employees of the university and outside security are contract private workers. I would be willing to bet the parking revenue for the FF games covers the hourly employee expenses for the entire week or practices and games. Concession revenue is all UD's. UD also doesn't have to staff the Flight Deck and all of the catering in Boesch is taken care of. There are a ton of hands on deck to make it happen, but not much more in house than the typical UD home game.

I have not once witnessed bad relations between UD staff and NCAA officials making it happen. From television, to radio, to video people, technicians, reporters, statisticians, NCAA big wigs....there is a pretty good relationship. The NCAA knows that they can walk into UD Arena and it will be ready to host and they don't have to babysit.

Xavier

XAVIER MUSKETEERS
Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

__________________
The lion doesn't lose sleep over the opinion of sheep.

I don't mean to doubt you but this cannot be true. Are you saying the concession workers don't get paid? I think that would be the only arena in America, or the world for that matter, that doesn't pay their concession staff.

The one constant in the Dance every year is that it all starts in Dayton. We, meaning the city and university, get publicity for weeks as the final at large teams are debated and argued about. All basketball fans are aware of Dayton and the FF. The financial rewards may not be that great but the publicity for the FF and the way it is presented is a plus for the Dayton area. Agree that most sites are not remembered a few weeks after the games are played, but that is not the case for the First Four. I believe it is also in the interest of the NCAA to have a set site for the beginning of the tournement, not only from a butts in the seats standpoint but also fact that they would know that a proven team of experts will be running the show.

I don't mean to doubt you but this cannot be true. Are you saying the concession workers don't get paid? I think that would be the only arena in America, or the world for that matter, that doesn't pay their concession staff.

They are volunteers from various community groups. They are not paid salaries or wages from the UD. They get a cut of sales, but no direct wages, benefits, etc...Bellbrook has a group that operates the stand that I frequent. Same worker knows what I want before I even get to her...1 Miller Lite...

__________________
The lion doesn't lose sleep over the opinion of sheep.

I don't mean to doubt you but this cannot be true. Are you saying the concession workers don't get paid? I think that would be the only arena in America, or the world for that matter, that doesn't pay their concession staff.

Their organizations get paid like shocka43 said. I'm 99% sure the Bengals concessions are run the same way too and I'm sure there are more venues that do the same thing. There are obviously some people employed by the venue/concession provider but a lot of the workers at many venues concession stands are simply volunteering to raise money for their organization.

I know the host site was IUPUI...and that is only because I was there and looked.

There was another one. The Horizon League was the co-host.

I find the following to be ironic. I can actually name the locations and the hosts in any given year, yet I find the only real benefit to hosting is to satisfy a school's or AD's sense of Gatsby-ism. And, well, look what happened to him. I also know what all goes into hosting an event.

Yet everyone else who talks about how great it is to host these events because of the publicity that comes along with it probably can't even name half the locations or even two or three of the hosts.

MAYBE there is something to be said about the hotels, but as far as the bars and restaurants, I think the closest NCAA Tournament game to the city I live in was seven hours away. Yet, all of the bars and restaurants were jammed.

I find the following to be ironic. I can actually name the locations and the hosts in any given year, yet I find the only real benefit to hosting is to satisfy a school's or AD's sense of Gatsby-ism. And, well, look what happened to him. I also know what all goes into hosting an event.

Yet everyone else who talks about how great it is to host these events because of the publicity that comes along with it probably can't even name half the locations or even two or three of the hosts.

But as has been pointed out, it isn't just the publicity (and Dayton DOES benefit from that perhaps more than most), it's the revenue generated within the local economy. Dayton wrote the book on hosting. They. Literally. Wrote. The. Book. Which the NCAA distributes to other host sites. If there were no value in hosting (beyond ego, as you suggest), no one would bid for the rights to do so.

Oh, and my guess is those hotels, bars and restaurants are a little more packed on a Tuesday and Wednesday night in Dayton than they would be otherwise. Probably on Thursdays, too, elsewhere. Maybe Forbes' reporting is shoddy? No, I don't think so.

But as has been pointed out, it isn't just the publicity (and Dayton DOES benefit from that perhaps more than most), it's the revenue generated within the local economy. Dayton wrote the book on hosting. They. Literally. Wrote. The. Book. Which the NCAA distributes to other host sites. If there were no value in hosting (beyond ego, as you suggest), no one would bid for the rights to do so.

Oh, and my guess is those hotels, bars and restaurants are a little more packed on a Tuesday and Wednesday night in Dayton than they would be otherwise. Probably on Thursdays, too, elsewhere. Maybe Forbes' reporting is shoddy? No, I don't think so.

The vast majority of schools don't bid on it. The reason? They see no value in doing it.

What would you say if I told you that the committee has asked schools to bid on it because they wanted to take it to certain locations, and the schools told them no thanks?

What would you say if I told you that the committee has asked schools to bid on it because they wanted to take it to certain locations, and the schools told them no thanks?

I'm sure that's true in some cases. But it's also true -- as you've failed to acknowledge -- that some do see great benefit in hosting, whether revenue or otherwise. And many others who also see it simply aren't qualified and therefore don't bid. Detroit, Hershey and Evansville didn't bid for the First Four because they wanted to bankrupt their cities.

Their organizations get paid like shocka43 said. I'm 99% sure the Bengals concessions are run the same way too and I'm sure there are more venues that do the same thing. n.

Correct on the Bengals.

The Dragons do it as well. It was about 10 years or so ago that I was involved with a group working the Dragons games, and the hassle was not worth it in our case. Spending 5 hours of my evening serving up nachos and hot dogs, for what equaled about $6 an hour (on a good night) donation we received from them. Too much golf, boating, and family time to be spent in the summer for me to ever do such again, just tell me how much cash the group needs and I will pay up my fair share instead of sweat equity in this case.

At UD Arena there is a sign at every concession or beer stand telling you what groups volunteers are running that stand and benefiting from sales.

I'm sure that's true in some cases. But it's also true -- as you've failed to acknowledge -- that some do see great benefit in hosting, whether revenue or otherwise. And many others who also see it simply aren't qualified and therefore don't bid. Detroit, Hershey and Evansville didn't bid for the First Four because they wanted to bankrupt their cities.

I'm well aware that some see a benefit in it. And, good for them. Hell, even if the only benefit is that they enjoy doing it, then that's great.

It's also true that I'd say the vast majority would rather not do it, and even some of the schools that opt to do it kind of do it reluctantly, especially if it's a school like...say...IUPUI, which is in Indianapolis, and who has administrative ties to both Indiana and Purdue, both of whom would like to play in Indianapolis, but not want to have to worry about any of that hosting nonsense. So, IUPUI is conveniently encouraged to bid. Have you also noticed that North Carolina, UNC Charlotte, UNC Grennsboro, and UNC Asheville all share the same Board of Trustees, and that Charlotte, UNCG, and UNCA are always bidding to host, yet UNC never does?? Well, at least they used to, but

I am in the reluctant category. No thank you. But, if someone else wants to do it, then great. They can knock themselves out.

Charlotte

CHARLOTTE
UNC Charlotte is one of a generation of universities founded in metropolitan areas of the United States immediately after World War II in response to rising education demands generated by the war and its technology. Now a research intensive university, UNC Charlotte is the fourth largest of the 16 institutions within the University of North Carolina system and the largest institution in the Charlotte region. The university comprises seven professional colleges and currently offers 18 doctoral programs, 62 masterís degree programs and 90 bachelorís degrees. More than 900 full-time faculty comprise the universityís academic departments and the 2007 fall enrollment exceeded 22,300 students. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the 49ers.

Yet everyone else who talks about how great it is to host these events because of the publicity that comes along with it probably can't even name half the locations or even two or three of the hosts.

Not being a smart ass...but just asking...

What percentage of tournament host sites are actually university venues? Every other NCAA tournament game that I have been to are off site professional facilities. Yes, bigger universities have hosted, but the overwhelming majority of tournament sites aren't even NCAA venues, but pro venues.

__________________
The lion doesn't lose sleep over the opinion of sheep.

They are volunteers from various community groups. They are not paid salaries or wages from the UD. They get a cut of sales, but no direct wages, benefits, etc...Bellbrook has a group that operates the stand that I frequent. Same worker knows what I want before I even get to her...1 Miller Lite...

I know there is some of this volunteer group work that goes on at Gillette Stadium and the Dunkin' Donuts Center too but not the entire concession staff. Most of the Stadium's contract with a concession company to run especially the food concessions so maybe UD is not paying the concession workers but is it possible they contract with a concession company?

Most of the Stadium's contract with a concession company to run especially the food concessions so maybe UD is not paying the concession workers but is it possible they contract with a concession company?

UD has a full time guy on staff, and I believe he has a few paid helpers. He is basically in charge of all concessions at UD Arena events, as well as volleyball games at Frericks. Overall I think he does a great job, and is always willing to listen to concerns you may have (such as my keg at the craft beer stand always being empty by halftime two years ago!)

You cannot compare a school hosting the NCAA Tournament in a random NBA Corporate Sponsor Name arena every few years to Dayton hosting the First Four every single year in the University of Dayton Arena. And the reputation for UD and the City of Dayton as having "basketball crazy" fans is mentioned every year...before, during and after the First Four.

What percentage of tournament host sites are actually university venues? Every other NCAA tournament game that I have been to are off site professional facilities. Yes, bigger universities have hosted, but the overwhelming majority of tournament sites aren't even NCAA venues, but pro venues.

Not sure why you think I would take that as you being a smartass.

Virtually none. Dayton, NC State, and I think one other one but I forget which, were the only venues that were actually on a campus. The NCAA seems to like it in NBA/NHL arenas. Other places like Louisville, Kentucky, Marquette, etc that will be hosting in their home arenas, but they also do not play in on campus arenas. If I'm not mistaken Rupp Arena isn't actually on Kentucky's campus either.

I think I said this earlier, but I think that had more to do with why UD didn't get a Round of 64/32 site than the First Four did.

Virtually none. Dayton, NC State, and I think one other one but I forget which, were the only venues that were actually on a campus. The NCAA seems to like it in NBA/NHL arenas. Other places like Louisville, Kentucky, Marquette, etc that will be hosting in their home arenas, but they also do not play in on campus arenas. If I'm not mistaken Rupp Arena isn't actually on Kentucky's campus either.

I think I said this earlier, but I think that had more to do with why UD didn't get a Round of 64/32 site than the First Four did.

brew, you are taking some things for granted that can't be quantified.

1. UD fans are not only basketball crazy, they are known for being basketball crazy, and they WANT to be known for being basketball crazy.

2. Whoever hosts the 2nd round of games at Anywhere Corporate Sponsor Arena is an unknown and no one cares. If we hosted the FF once every 10 years it would be a waste of time most likely. But we don't. We are THE SITE for the FF. Every single year when people tune in for the FF they know the game will be at that same arena in Dayton. No one gives a hoot about the host site for the rest of the games because as you say it's forgotten immediately afterward. After 10 years or so, that piece of information does sink in and stay sunken in long after the games are over. So that actually DOES = publicity.

3. Most sites that bid on hosting are doing it once every few years. Staff has to be re-trained, new updates must be made to meet new NCAA codes, etc. Staff complains because "last year I was on the beach at this time." Not Dayton. To us, it's more like the annual family camping trip. Yeah, some parts of it suck (3 days of planning, bugs, mud) but when you do it every year the work actually becomes part of the bonding experience. You wouldn't understand because you're not part of the culture.

4. If you are not good at it your costs will be higher. If you get it down to a science you can make money at it. It's like anything else.

5. UD plays in a smaller conference. It helps to sell recruits to be able to tell them "we put 8,000 people into this arena for 2 teams who mean nothing to us, we didn't just bring you on a recruiting visit for the 1 big game on our schedule." That has value.

6. You can't tell me that the NCAA folks / coaches / selection committee / etc. doesn't have just a slightly higher level of respect for UD when our name is in front of them all year long. I'm not sure how to put a $ figure on that, but business = relationships. And college BB is a business.

Wrong link, but the point stands. I have yet to hear you refute the numbers by Forbes and others that the tourney usually generates a good return for the local economy. That's because you can't.

Correct. I did not refute the impact on the local economy. Truth be told I've never really specifically assessed how it impacts the local economy.

I was making three points...

1. It does not generate any significant revenue for the institution or conference, who are actually saddled with doing the work

2. It does not generate any publicity or exposure for the institution or conference. I think Chaminade manages to generate about fifty times the exposure for itself by hosting the Maui than any team or conference generates for itself by hosting the NCAA Tournament.

3. The vast majority of schools would rather not host it. This last point is not a mere supposition on my part.

And hey, if a school wants to host, then good for them! Someone's gotta do it, and it might as well be someone else. They should do what they like for whatever reasons that they like. I'm not saying they're making a mistake. I'm saying that I'd rather not do it, and I am by no means the only person that feels that way. In fact, when I said that hosting sucks, I said it to convey that I don't think there is really anything to feel bad about in regards to not getting any first/second round games.

maybe xubrew would have more interest in hosting an ncaa game if your arena was named for your school, or if your school was named for the town where it is located. When the public hears University of Dayton arena or game played in Dayton Ohio, only one school comes to mind for the country.
a little different if it was Cintas arena in Cincinnati.

So US Bank Arena may get torn and rebuilt but sounds like they may need taxpayer funding. Wonder if we could get that pod if nothing happens

IMO, that could be a tough sell, there is no big-time regular occupant of that building.

And I really do not like the taxpayers being asked to help fund the construction of stadiums for major league sports teams. The owners are all multi-millionaires, and many of the players are multi-millionaires. They should be the ones footing the bill. It all really ticks me off. The money in pro sports is enormous. They can move the teams to some other town for all I care. Enough with pro teams asking the taxpayers for more money.

That is probably why the books for pro sports teams are all non-public. The taxpayers would probably riot.

Correct. I did not refute the impact on the local economy. Truth be told I've never really specifically assessed how it impacts the local economy.

I was making three points...

1. It does not generate any significant revenue for the institution or conference, who are actually saddled with doing the work

I do not know about all employees, but when I worked the NCAA tournaments at UD, I had to specifically note on my timecard when I was working for UD and when I was during work for the NCAA Tournament. I was told that the NCAA picks up the tab for workers who are working strictly for the event. This was 7-8 years ago, so things may have changed since then.

maybe xubrew would have more interest in hosting an ncaa game if your arena was named for your school, or if your school was named for the town where it is located. When the public hears University of Dayton arena or game played in Dayton Ohio, only one school comes to mind for the country.
a little different if it was Cintas arena in Cincinnati.

No, I really wouldn't.

Perhaps I'd be more interested if I didn't feel as though the NCAA came in and basically expected everyone in the department to stop what it is that they normally do so they can be on call for about fourteen hours a day. And...for what?

Correct. I did not refute the impact on the local economy. Truth be told I've never really specifically assessed how it impacts the local economy.

I was making three points...

1. It does not generate any significant revenue for the institution or conference, who are actually saddled with doing the work

2. It does not generate any publicity or exposure for the institution or conference. I think Chaminade manages to generate about fifty times the exposure for itself by hosting the Maui than any team or conference generates for itself by hosting the NCAA Tournament.

3. The vast majority of schools would rather not host it. This last point is not a mere supposition on my part.

And hey, if a school wants to host, then good for them! Someone's gotta do it, and it might as well be someone else. They should do what they like for whatever reasons that they like. I'm not saying they're making a mistake. I'm saying that I'd rather not do it, and I am by no means the only person that feels that way. In fact, when I said that hosting sucks, I said it to convey that I don't think there is really anything to feel bad about in regards to not getting any first/second round games.

Fair enough. No one argued it was a huge moneymaker for the host universities. As pointed out, it's a much different story for the host cities. You may not have researched the economic impact, but others have and have found it to be a considerable boost. But as to point 2, I think a number of people here have successfully argued that the First Four does have publicity value for the university and Dayton in a way that one-and-done hosting doesn't. Your analogy to Chaminade isn't far off of what First Four advocates might argue. Long-term associations count for something. And I'd only add to your third point that, again, most schools don't bid because they don't have the capability to host. No doubt some don't want to; no doubt some want to and can't.

I know there is some of this volunteer group work that goes on at Gillette Stadium and the Dunkin' Donuts Center too but not the entire concession staff. Most of the Stadium's contract with a concession company to run especially the food concessions so maybe UD is not paying the concession workers but is it possible they contract with a concession company?

No. It is exactly how I described. The concession coordinators are full time UD employees.

__________________
The lion doesn't lose sleep over the opinion of sheep.

Look for UD arena to be awarded the first round games in 2022. It will be taken away from U.S. Bank arena by then.

As a condition on awarding the bid to U.S. Bank arena, the arena is required to make renovations cost up to $200 million. No one expects that to happen. Those running Cincnata bicker over the smallest issues.

Look for UD arena to be awarded the first round games in 2022. It will be taken away from U.S. Bank arena by then.

As a condition on awarding the bid to U.S. Bank arena, the arena is required to make renovations cost up to $200 million. No one expects that to happen. Those running Cincnata bicker over the smallest issues.

It is as much about branding as it is $. UD has turned what was once an albatross (PIG - play-in game) into a meaningful part of the NCAA tournament - First Four. First Four and Dayton have become synonymous. Everyone knows the NCAA tournament starts here. When you are the kick-off to one of the biggest sporting events of the year every year, you accumulate a lot of cred in the sporting world. You can't measure the dollar value to that, but it is real.

In addition, UD will be using this renewal - and the dollars it brings - as part of their promotion for the arena renovations. We fans win as well.

Look for UD arena to be awarded the first round games in 2022. It will be taken away from U.S. Bank arena by then.

As a condition on awarding the bid to U.S. Bank arena, the arena is required to make renovations cost up to $200 million. No one expects that to happen. Those running Cincnata bicker over the smallest issues.

There was an article from one of the TV stations down there that said the owner want to demolition it and build a new arena

A $200 million renovation was proposed in 2015 by arena owners Nederlander Entertainment and AEG Facilities. The renovations would include both upgrades to the seating and expansion to increase capacity to 18,500 seats, additional luxury suites and other premium seating, a new exterior facade, new video boards, and a renovation of the exterior concourse.[30] The push for extensive renovations and upgrades came in 2014 after the city ran an unsuccessful bid for the 2016 Republican National Convention and the state of U.S. Bank Arena was cited as the deciding factor in the bid's failure.[31][32]

In 2017, Nederlander Entertainment announced its intention to tear down and replace the arena if a deal could be made with taxpayers, citing inadequate space and dated '70s aesthetics.[33]

Nederlander owns the arena but wants the city/county to assist in funding the project. The 200 million number was for a renovation, but Nederlander has said they really want to tear the whole thing down and build a new arena which would be more like 350 million. There is no way a tax to fund the project would pass in my opinion and I'm 99% sure that no renovation or new arena gets done.

My guess is that the NCAA will move the games to Columbus, Louisville, or Indianapolis. I simply think the days of UD arena hosting 1st and 2nd round games are over.

Nederlander owns the arena but wants the city/county to assist in funding the project. The 200 million number was for a renovation, but Nederlander has said they really want to tear the whole thing down and build a new arena which would be more like 350 million. There is no way a tax to fund the project would pass in my opinion and I'm 99% sure that no renovation or new arena gets done.

My guess is that the NCAA will move the games to Columbus, Louisville, or Indianapolis. I simply think the days of UD arena hosting 1st and 2nd round games are over.

The city/county has stated they own enough stadiums (or at least own a share of the $$$ required to support them). Hence they are not too excited about adding another liability to their ledger.

Some of the renovations that were discussed is providing new lux boxes inside, so the poor and middle class can help pick up the tab for the rich to sit in them there boxes ... (yes there is a fee/ticket cost but does it cover the expense to build and maintain ????).

The city/county has stated they own enough stadiums (or at least own a share of the $$$ required to support them). Hence they are not too excited about adding another liability to their ledger.

Some of the renovations that were discussed is providing new lux boxes inside, so the poor and middle class can help pick up the tab for the rich to sit in them there boxes ... (yes there is a fee/ticket cost but does it cover the expense to build and maintain ????).

Precisely why Paul Brown has one of the worst game day experiences in all of the NFL. Concrete jungle with some stickers and paint. No character. No nothing. It's a wonder why I sell my entire set of season tickets each year.

__________________
The lion doesn't lose sleep over the opinion of sheep.

Some business decisions are done because the payment is in more than just dollars. I make these same choices at times in my own businesses. Value-added movement on the chess board sometimes comes in the form of things like reputation, community and regional leverage, greater access to movers and shakers at other seated tables, better relationships, good will, fan appeal, etc, etc. The list is endless.

Sometimes in business, a loss-leader is really a business cow, perhaps not in cash but in other meaningful ways. I dont think UD makes profits hand over fist from the First Four. But I believe they believe that the effort to host it is something they ultimately find a net gain. For fans, many of those "gains" are behind the scenes in smoke-filled rooms and months after the actual event. But its about building a brand and an identity.

Coca Cola probably loses their shirt on Super Bowl ads. Their sales are probably flat whether they buy a $5M 30-second commercial or not. But the value of the brand and competitive nature of their product niche demands they are always making sure when people think of cola, they think Coke instead of Pepsi. Its the cost of doing business.

Given UDs unique dynamic of infrastructure, facilities, personnel, fan support, community culture, and experts with decades of experience to handle such things as a First Four, my guess is UD believes they are better at this task than just about anyone, and can do it far better and with far fewer people and expense -- than other potential hosts that have never done it before and would make every mistake in the book at least twice. Its just too good of a situation to turn down. You can't buy the exposure and promotion for less -- and when you are an institution like Dayton where access to exposure and national pats-on-the-back don't come easily because of location, conference, and other factors, you have to exploit those golden opportunities whenever you can because those chances are few and far between. At Louisville, they have all the tools to host the First Four too. But it would never add the same value to Louisville as it does UD. The scale and context matter b/c the institutions themselves are anything but equal.