Saturday, February 25, 2006

This is the first in an occasional series where we here at the M Zone attempt to pass on the gift of knowledge (along with the usual pictures of cheerleaders doing porn) to you, the loyal M Zone reader.

Today's topic: College Football and Politics

Mid-term question: What is the difference between Woody Hayes and Richard Nixon?

Answer: One was an ill-tempered raving lunatic who was forced from his job in disgrace. The other was the President of the United States.

Thank you for your time, class. This has been an M Zone History Lesson.

EXTRA CREDIT: To the Buckeyes in the back of the class saying, "You're only ripping on Woody because he ripped Michigan on the field!" while reading the latest issue of their MODERN TATTOO subscription -- Remember, while overall that may be true since Woody started coaching during the Ulysses S. Grant administration, against Bo, he had a losing record: 4-5-1.

Ted, how are our comments "uneducated?" There is video proof that Woody Hayes was an ill-tempered raving lunatic who was forced from his job. Like when he ripped apart sideline markers after being upset about a referee's call. Or when he kicked a sideline cameraman. Or when he went for two with the score 48-3. Oh, and there's one more. HE PUNCHED AN OPPOSING PLAYER WHO HAD THE AUDACITY TO INTERCEPT AN OSU PASS. We always hear from the Buckeye Nation how Woody was such a great guy away from the field. Well if I work long hours, am real productive, help my co-workers, but beat my wife that makes me one thing: A miserable human being.

Unfortunately, WH should have left the college game a little earlier, as he was having many health issues. However, he chose to stay and the stress and his health got the best of him. He lost it on Charlie Bauman when he came over and taunted the OSU sideline after picking off a pass. Ok...an elderly man punched a 20-something football player in pads. Am I condoning this type of behavior? No. However, to point at one specific event to judge someone's mental health is ridiculous. He was a fiery coach, who hated losing and was obsessed with strategy. This was displayed in his work ethic and his team's work ethic.

The man has a storied past, from an academic and social standpoint, and there isnt a coach that has stopped at UM that could ever accomplish as much on-the-field and off-the-field as Woody Hayes (Would UM be the program that it is today without Woody Hayes? An interesting question to ponder. No Woody = No Bo).

I would suggest possibly picking up a book or watching the PBS documentary on the man and his accomplishments before stating his pattern of behavior should put him in the madhouse. If this was the case, Lloyd would have been committed years ago with his antics and temper tantrums on the sideline, during the game and with sideline reporters.

You should do a little research on why OSU went for two, instead of assuming it was because of WH's mental health...I could just tell you, but that would defeat the purpose.

"Well if I work long hours, am real productive, help my co-workers, but beat my wife that makes me one thing: A miserable human being."

Your ability to reason is nearing Ben Affleck's ability to act. Maybe you can ask one of your Matt Damon-esque friends to do the research for you, write the post for you. and post it under your name.

Ted, that was a reasonable post until the end, at which point you inexplicably decided to use the tired (and stolen) Ben Affleck joke. I once had a stillborn son with a better developed sense of humor than you.

Which, when it gets right down to it, explains why a self-important blowhard like yourself would even bother posting on a blog like this to begin with.

Didnt realize that I stole that one. Can you point out where the original Affleck Joke is? I would say the tired part came in with Benny's quote, but that is just my opinion.

Regardless, I dont feel like I am "self-important", but I also dont feel like there is a problem with "calling a spade a spade" (Sorry I used that...should I credit someone?) when you guys obviously know nothing about the man and his accomplishments. Stick to what you guys really know and understand....1. Bashing OSU fans2. Wicked Photoshop Skills (really like the RealSports "Curling" one)3. Grammar (Where is Ian Gold?)4. Witty Observations that fall short of EDSBS's daily offerings...unless you are referencing Cheerleaders turned Porn Stars (definite kudos on this one)

Notice I didnt really put anything about football or any other UM athletic program. If you guys start writing about UM sports, maybe it would reflect the title and description of the blog. I enjoy reading most of your guy's entries, but sometimes you guys should stick with what you know. Ya know?

Ted, that was a reasonable post until the end, at which point you inexplicably decided to use the tired (and stolen) Stillborn Humor joke. I once had a stillborn son with a better developed sense of humor than you.

Ted, you are a Woody apologist, like too many of your Tosu bretheren. To compare Woody's lunacy to Lloyd Carr's occasional childish behavior proves it. Yes, Lloyd argues with officials - which coach doesn't? The good ones use it to their advantage. And, yes, he will sometimes even use the officials as an excuse. I don't like when he does that. But his behvavior on the field is certainly within the realm of normal. Woody's was not. Are you disputing any of the lunatic behaviors I pointed out above? No, you only rationalize them. The bottom line is, Tosu fans adore Woody because he won. He was college football's version of Mussolini - a tyrant who made sure the trains ran on time.

I am not an apologist. I appreciate the other things the man has done with his time here on earth outside of football, which you would never care to understand...unless Netflix fast-tracks Deuce Bigalow 2 (it speaks volume that it is on your list).

I have not mentioned anything about football and OSU's record, during the Woody's tenure. I care about OSU...not the football program. However, I do appreciate the selective statistical reference. I am pretty sure that Woody had a winning record over UM...yeah he did (11-9-1).

I am going to borrow (steal)another phrase to sum up your posting on Woody Hayes....

"it’s better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt!"

Again, you nothing about the man, so just bash his on-the-field behavior.

The comparison to Lloyd was stated to provide a point of understanding, which could not be grasped with the WH topic alone. Lloyd is on the same course as Woody. Woody used to do the same thing that Lloyd does now. However, Lloyd gets a little angrier every year. He could be on course for a good blow up. Oh well...it doesnt really matter.

On the topic of the adoration of Woody Hayes....

OSU fans loved him for many reason. It helped a great deal that he won. It was also well known that this man was great teacher at the University and even taught history courses for the University. He also helped maintain the peace with OSU students, during times of high tension and potential rioting with the Vietnam War and Kent State Massacre. He spent many hours in the OSU Hospital visiting terminally-ill children and would regularly just show up at the hospital without notice and visit with patients that he didnt know.

I would say this guy was far from a lunatic (regardless of your statements), but his health and stress from his job took a toll.

I mean, in all reality, you guys are making my point for me, because you havent referenced anything outside of his on-the-field behavior. Again, this simply means that means you know absolutely nothing about him, and are bashing someone who is widely respected amongst the coaching community.

I like the Mussolini reference. He was a general on the football field. One of the best coaches and humanitarians in the history of college sports.

Ian Gold has taken a leave of absence to develop the pilot for “Dr. Gold: Grammar Cop.” IC is now posting in his place.

Finding Woody Hayes to be a despicable person does not mean that one has not does his homework. In fact, learning about him only reinforces this belief. I have not seen the “PBS documentary” about him (produced, literally and I’m assuming completely objectively, by WOSU), but I have visited this link http://www.bucknuts.com/osuhistory/coachhayes.htm, which provides an unintentionally hilarious celebration (and conventional recap) of your beloved Woody’s despotism.

I will not repeat (or add to) the many incidents of inexcusable behavior exhibited by Woody, which have already been noted by Benny. You say that you don’t condone Woody’s actions in these incidents, then you proceed to condone them, in the most famous case by noting falsely that Charlie Bauman was taunting the tOSU sideline and by shamelessly rationalizing that the Clemson LB was in pads, clearly suggesting that you believe it’s ok to punch a unsuspecting person in the neck. (Hey, I’ve got another idea for a new show—“IC: Prosecuting Lexicographer”.)

It’s appropriate that today’s history lesson features Woody with Nixon. Both have always had their defenders—after all Woody won a lot of football games and Nixon won two presidential elections. Both men emerged from humble beginnings to rise to the top of their very competitive and admired fields. Both enjoyed the support and millions, many of whom simply loved their school/country, and many others who were fueled by the same resentment and anger that were such a part of their makeup.

And both ultimately squandered their legacies. Both Nixon and Woody are destined to be remembered by all but their dwindling numbers of blinded admirers for becoming undone by their instability and for irreparably disgracing themselves and their institutions.

It strikes me as hypocritical when UM fans try to use selective timeframes to prove their football superiority since they (along with Notre Dame) are the masters of digging up titles and wins from the late 1800's. Instead of looking at Woody's overall record, it's his record against Bo? However, when an OSU fan mentions that many of UM's wins in the series were in the "dark ages" of college footbal the normal UM response is "57-39-6, that's the only numbers that matter". These are numbers that roll off the tongue of every UM fan without even thinking.

So, which way do you want it? Do ALL the games count, or just the ones that prove your point? Just so you know, if we define the series from the day Woody stepped on the field (which many will tell you is when the true "rivalry" started) OSU leads 27-26-2.

I never condoned the behavior, but I am not about condemn somebody that has done so many good things in his life over his antics on a football field. You guys can do this if you wish(it is your blog). There was an HBO documentary discussing the greatest coaches...Woody was in it...and he was referenced in the same light as the WOSU-produced documentary. I dont expect you to believe anything that anybody tells you, but just winning isnt the only thing that gets you remebered amongst OSU fans, otherwise the Synchronized Swimming Coach would be an Ohio icon.

Bottom-line...then man has done a lot more good things off-the-field than the incidents you have brought up from his on-the-field career. Your inability to see that is expected. However, your ability to blur TIC OSU history from a fan forum/website with reality is just ridiculous. I am sure that there were some truths on your research excursion, but there are also exaggerations that come along with the building of a great rivalry...such as this one.

Thats like the pot calling the kettle black. I know, I stole that from somebody. "

You could have at least corrected my typo...come on...

On the contrary, my retorts were well thought out and have some "meat" to them. This entry was similar to reading the first and last page of a novel and thinking that you are a reasonable source for an opinion of its value

What you were doing is the definition of condoning the behavior—you overlook or disregard what you call Woody’s “antics”—such a playful and harmless word—because of “so many good things in his life…”

Everybody does “good things” in their lives. My experience (and common sense) has taught me that when people who typically act like jerks visit hospitals and the like, they are doing so to polish their public image or to overcompensate for what they know deep inside is their miserable personality.

Woody’s “good things” are exaggerated by people such as yourself, who know he was a lousy guy, but don’t want to accept that because (whether they mention it explicitly or not) he was a very successful coach. They endow him with qualities they wished he had as a way of rationalizing or excusing his immature volatility and general pud-like demeanor.

BTW, when Lloyd Carr acted foolishly with sideline reporter Todd Harris a few years ago—an act nowhere near as reprehensible as throwing sideline markers or sucker-punching an opposing player-- I immediately condemned him (and later did so on this blog). Carr also apologized for his behavior. It was the paragon of accountability, class, and “good things”, Woody Hayes, who said of his mistakes, “I don’t apologize for anything.” http://www.bucknuts.com/osuhistory/coachhayes.htm

It's your opinion, but the fact remains that you know nothing about the man (I feel like a broken record player). The man never did any of these things in the public eye, and never asked to be acknowledged for anything that he did.

You opinion of people who do good things is very obtuse. I guess that Mother Teresa must have been hiding something with your line of thought. (Not that I am comparing WH to Mother Teresa, so consider that argument point pro-actively disarmed)

Very noble of Lloyd to apologize for his actions...that is a product of today's culture...not Lloyd's sincerity. No apology at all is better than a fake one (IMO). The fact that you buy into this concept of Lloyd apologizing and everything being "A-OK" provides great insight into your buy-in of today's culture, which is sad (TO must be OK in your book, as well...right?). I guess if Woody apologized everything would have been just fine according to you guys. I doubt it...too much venom being spewed from people that are less qualified to speak anout WH than "the King's" stillborn son.

You note, "You (sic)opinion of people who do good things is very obtuse. I guess that Mother Teresa must have been hiding something with your line of thought. (Not that I am comparing WH to Mother Teresa, so consider that argument point pro-actively disarmed)."

How good of you to "pro-actively" disarm the argument you just made but then disavowed. However, I will point out that in my post I explained, "that when people who typically act like jerks visit hospitals and the like, they are doing so to polish their public image or to overcompensate for what they know deep inside is their miserable personality." I have no evidence that Mother Teresa was a jerk. I do have ample evidence that Woody was a jerk, however. Kind of an important distinction, despite your already disclaiming your claim.

Re. "today's culture": not sure exactly what you mean by that. Are there more phony apologies nowadays than there were in the "good old days" when a cantankerous misanthrope was given a pass simply because of his W/L record and "good things" (that he apparently didn't want people knowing about, though somehow most everybody in Ohio discovered)? Yes there are. Is TO ok in my book? As a receiver he's awesome. As a person he's pathetic. Kind of like another successful gridiron figure of the past...

Not really that important...your opinion is as equally worthless as mine. However, I am able to reference my knowledge on the subject through growing up in Ohio and knowing a lot more about a person, who is considered a legend for things outside of football. I completely understand your inability to grasp this concept.

While I am not an expert on the topic of WH, I understand his legacy here in Ohio as a Football Coach, a teacher, and a pillar of the community. When UM and the state of Michigan is fotunate enough to have a person like this to call their own (besides Kwame), you will understand this type of loyalty to a man that you consider to be a lunatic. Or maybe you wont...or maybe you will never have a person like this in Michigan. Hard to tell...

tTKE, I hope if left with the choice of having a person like Woody to call their own, the people of Michigan would say "No, thanks."You know, Stalin was considered a great person in the USSR because he helped defeat the Nazis. But what about the millions of his own citizens he killed? "Oh, you wouldn't understand," a Soviet might say. "You don't live here. We know of all the good he does, you couldn't."

...ok...you clearly have me on the overall cultural superiority of the state of Ohio over Michigan. As seal-tight an argument as I have ever had the pleasure to read on this or any other blog.

Come on. Yours is a ridiculous argument, highlighting your lack of depth in the attempt to redeem Woody as a person.

But you disparaged the honor of the state of my youth so I shall defend it!

You can take Woody and his good buddy Nixon, put them together, multiply their worth as people times 10, and put them up against former President Gerald Ford, a Michigan Man by upbringing and education. At the end of this contest, the sound of "The Victors" will be heard all the way down to the place where Woody and Nixon reside.

Michigan football fans are uneducated sots. The team they root for is nothing but a pathetic shell of its former self. LLoyd Carr is a ranting, raving lunatic who is another OSU beat down away from an aneurysm. He will go down in flames as the loser that he is. Your hero Fielding Yost was an alcoholic who liked to dress in woman's undergarments. He visited sick kids in hospitals just so he could sneak morphine injections. Despicable.

If we count by Michigan rules, we can include the lame 1970 obscure title that Ohio State was awarded, so that would make your answer incorrect.

By the way, don't lecture me on class - you have none. Classy Wolverine fans such as you are the same people that I saw at the game this year cursing and spitting at anything in Scarlet and Gray. Class indeed.

Oh, and our bad for lecturing you on our blog. Sorry. Yeah, you're right. Ohio State fans are the epitome of class. That's why the president of the university had to apologize to UT fans after the way they were treated in Columbus. That's why when you ask ANY Big 10 fans who the worst fans in the Big 10 are, the answer is ALWAYS the same - O-H-I-O!

By the way, I wouldn't set foot in a Denny's. Too low brow for me. I prefer Sarabeth's or brunch at the Parker Meridian. Do you frequent Denny's for breakfast, or just for the company in the men's room?

Look, I get it -- you're in your 40s, hence the Harlan (pause for laughter) Fumblebee reference. Cruising the O-zone after another lonely night since the divorce. Saw the post on Woody. Got all fired up. It's cool. Enjoy. That's what the site's for between your big business ventures.

Look, I am married to a Buckeye, one of my employees is a buckeye, and one of my better friends(and NASCAR nut) is a Buckeye. The one thing that even they will admit to is that the Buckeye fans are NUTS! My wife was appalled at Buckeye fans behavior at this years OSU-UM game and until I talked her out of it was going to throw away all of her OSU stuff.

People in OHIO just don't see it. You can go back and forth with tTKE forever and he won't change his stance. You could prove the Woody was a communist, killed nuns, and molested little boys, and the people from Ohio will defend him.

Part of the problem in OHIO is the Buckeyes is all that they have. There is no comparable university like Michigan State, so everyone in the state lives and dies for the Buckeyes.

Another problem is this inferiority complex that these people have against Michigan. I don't understand it, but it exists. I guess it could be because OSU is a university that accepts anyone with a pulse (like MSU - my undergrad), where as Michigan only allows the the more elite student. Which makes them feel a little less, I don't know.

My advise, give up on tTKE and just let him rant, he will sleep a couple seconds longer that way.

Michigan is better because of its' class, don't sink to his or their level. (Eddie George, and Chris Spielmaker are exceptions)

Besides, it took a player from Michigan, their smartest player, to lead them to their NC, and they will have to live with that.

Class? I can't tell you the number of times I heard F Ohio state, F you, etc., all in the presence of my kids at last year's game. If you think your fanbase doesn't have a problem, you are kidding yourself. I won't even go into detail about getting beer poured on me and spilled on the lady sitting next to us. The atmosphere in the Big House in 2005 was one step removed from the classlessness I witnessed in San Antonio when we played Ok State in the Alamo Bowl. I've been to Madison, and I am hard pressed to decide who has worse fans, Michigan or Wisconsin.

Against my own advice, I am going to dispute a Buckeye fan. I took my children to the game, and finally had to tell the four Buckeye fans behind me to stop swearing every other word, because of the kids. After he dropped his seven small bottles of Captain Morgan that he illegally brought into the stadium, he shut up. The guy next to me with two kids actually left.

The only stadium I would fear for my safety in Michigan attire is Ohio Stadium. Argue all you want but you know its true. The antics and lack of class towards Michigan is ridiculous - you might remember the search that was performed prior to last years game in Columbus. It happened to only one team - you know that team from up north.

While I did see some Buckeye fans take some verbal abuse while I walked through the golf course to the game. I saw zero violence, and no physical altercations.

I love college football and the environment surronding games and places like Michigan, but I have no idea who won the big game in 1993, you know why? because ultimatly who cares! It has zero factor on my life, its supposed to be fun, go support your team (win or lose) and move on. Do I wnat my team to win each week, sure, but we are talking about 18-22 year old college kids, who the night before were - studying, drinking, screwing, smoking, sleeping, etc.

My advice to Buckeye fans: a rose, is a rose, is a rose. A rose is not a daisy. Remove yourself from the situation and actually look at what the facts are, to bad they do not smell like a rose in the Buckeye fan case as it pertains to Michigan. Ohio State is a great athletic institution, enjoy your teams, rather than hate on other teams - life is to short.

Follow the MZone

Subscribe To

The MZone-slash-MichiganZone.net-slash-MichiganZone.blogspot.com is in no way affiliated with the University of Michigan and/or U-M football in any way. If you thought it was, frankly I'm surprised you know how to use a computer.