Assuming that's true, so what? You wouldn't be drafting Jones for one year only. Should we trade ey just because we have a problem at qb right now? The point isn't just to build a team for 2011, and Jones has a higher upside than Quinn and probably any other player would be available at #10 (or #14).

With Quinn being a project at OLB, I have to agree with Canes that Jones has a stronger "can't miss" possibility than Quinn. As a DE in a 4-3, Quinn is porbably a sure bet, but there is an unknown at OLB. Is Quinn worth the 10, yes, but you have Rob Jackson and Chris Wilson developinp on your roster. Assuming Santana re-signs (and if he does he will most likey be the slot), we only have one other receiver on the roster that made an impact.

As far as Grossman, check Grossman vs. McNabb last year. Grossman his Santana in the hands in stride during the fourth quarter (Moss dropped it). He hit Armsrong in stride for the TD against NYG. This stuff about questioning Jones developing under Grossman is nonsense. See my earlier post. You can bet that Shanny has a plan to shore up this O line which will help any QB we have play better than last year.

Quinn's not a project. Had he played last year he would be a top five pick this season. Mayock has him in the mix for #1 overall pick two months ago. Mayock and McShay has him to Cleveland at #7 McShay and Kiper has him to Houston Kiper and Bunting has him to Washington Bunting so most have him as a top ten prospect, even with the year off.

I don't mind the argument but let's not undersell Quinn because some favor Jones.

Mayock says:

"I think the kid has rare and elite skills for a defensive end in the National Football League," NFL Network senior draft analyst Mike Mayock said of Quinn (who is Mayock's No. 1-rated defensive end) on Path to the Draft, though he still thinks he projects better as a 4-3 DE than a 3-4 OLB.

For our argument, you failed to address my point that Quinn's coverage skills are unknown. Thus Quinn is a project at OLB.Think back to Orakpo's rookie year. To maximize his talent, he was placed in the DE position where he got most of his sacks. You can't do that with Quinn on a 3-4 team. Orakpo isn't the best cover LB either. He is still learning. So, with Quinn, you might have to OLBs trying to learn how to cover. Von Miller stayed in school to coincentrate on his coverage skills and he was an OLB.

Orakpo got most of his sacks playing DE as a rookie because the DC didn't like to blitz.

Hmmm, that's a simplistic way of looking at things. I thougt DCs looked at their talent and maximized it, at the same time, trying to foil offenses' plans by utilizing that talent in multiple ways. If I recall, Orakpo was a stud pass rusher coming out of college and not a stud pass coverage guy (I don't think he was an anything pass covarage guy coming out of college). Makes sense for DC to put him at DE on passing downs. Hmmm, didn't another Redskin DC move an LB to DE on passing downs to get the most out of him? Now, wouldn't you say there might be a little chance the DC had another reason than just not liking to blitz?

SI.com: Looking back to last season, do you think you were miscast as a defensive end on passing downs?

LA: I just think that we did what was needed for the team. And that's the bottom line, whether I liked it or not. It was to try and make this team as good as we could possibly make it at that time.

SI.com: You made the Pro Bowl last year again, but in your heart did it feel like a Pro Bowl season for you?

LA: Yeah, heck yeah. Eleven sacks. I led all linebackers in sacks. Tied for the lead on the team in tackles. I'm going to do my part. But I could have been better, and that's the thing that bothered me. I tried to overcome a lot and I overcame a lot. But a Pro Bowl season, yeah, I know I had a Pro Bowl season. But I can do better though.

Assuming that's true, so what? You wouldn't be drafting Jones for one year only. Should we trade ey just because we have a problem at qb right now? The point isn't just to build a team for 2011, and Jones has a higher upside than Quinn and probably any other player would be available at #10 (or #14).

With Quinn being a project at OLB, I have to agree with Canes that Jones has a stronger "can't miss" possibility than Quinn. As a DE in a 4-3, Quinn is porbably a sure bet, but there is an unknown at OLB. Is Quinn worth the 10, yes, but you have Rob Jackson and Chris Wilson developinp on your roster. Assuming Santana re-signs (and if he does he will most likey be the slot), we only have one other receiver on the roster that made an impact.

As far as Grossman, check Grossman vs. McNabb last year. Grossman his Santana in the hands in stride during the fourth quarter (Moss dropped it). He hit Armsrong in stride for the TD against NYG. This stuff about questioning Jones developing under Grossman is nonsense. See my earlier post. You can bet that Shanny has a plan to shore up this O line which will help any QB we have play better than last year.

Quinn's not a project. Had he played last year he would be a top five pick this season. Mayock has him in the mix for #1 overall pick two months ago. Mayock and McShay has him to Cleveland at #7 McShay and Kiper has him to Houston Kiper and Bunting has him to Washington Bunting so most have him as a top ten prospect, even with the year off.

I don't mind the argument but let's not undersell Quinn because some favor Jones.

Mayock says:

"I think the kid has rare and elite skills for a defensive end in the National Football League," NFL Network senior draft analyst Mike Mayock said of Quinn (who is Mayock's No. 1-rated defensive end) on Path to the Draft, though he still thinks he projects better as a 4-3 DE than a 3-4 OLB.

For our argument, you failed to address my point that Quinn's coverage skills are unknown. Thus Quinn is a project at OLB.Think back to Orakpo's rookie year. To maximize his talent, he was placed in the DE position where he got most of his sacks. You can't do that with Quinn on a 3-4 team. Orakpo isn't the best cover LB either. He is still learning. So, with Quinn, you might have to OLBs trying to learn how to cover. Von Miller stayed in school to coincentrate on his coverage skills and he was an OLB.

Orakpo got most of his sacks playing DE as a rookie because the DC didn't like to blitz.

Hmmm, that's a simplistic way of looking at things. I thougt DCs looked at their talent and maximized it, at the same time, trying to foil offenses' plans by utilizing that talent in multiple ways. If I recall, Orakpo was a stud pass rusher coming out of college and not a stud pass coverage guy (I don't think he was an anything pass covarage guy coming out of college). Makes sense for DC to put him at DE on passing downs. Hmmm, didn't another Redskin DC move an LB to DE on passing downs to get the most out of him? Now, wouldn't you say there might be a little chance the DC had another reason than just not liking to blitz?

SI.com: Looking back to last season, do you think you were miscast as a defensive end on passing downs?

LA: I just think that we did what was needed for the team. And that's the bottom line, whether I liked it or not. It was to try and make this team as good as we could possibly make it at that time.

SI.com: You made the Pro Bowl last year again, but in your heart did it feel like a Pro Bowl season for you?

LA: Yeah, heck yeah. Eleven sacks. I led all linebackers in sacks. Tied for the lead on the team in tackles. I'm going to do my part. But I could have been better, and that's the thing that bothered me. I tried to overcome a lot and I overcame a lot. But a Pro Bowl season, yeah, I know I had a Pro Bowl season. But I can do better though.

Red_One43 wrote:.... It looks like you are introducing another option - don't take Jones if we can't trade down because you don't want the first two picks for offense because you are sure, IYO, that the Skins will take a QB. I translate to mean you want a defensive player rather than Jones. Since you didn't specific who, may I pencil you in for Quinn since he has been already introduced on this thread?

I hope we don't have to use the #10 pick

I think Jones will be a really good WR in the NFL

I think that Quinn will really help our defense

I do not prefer either but I think that Jones may prove to be the better player

I think that we are going to take a QB with 1 of the first 2 picks in this draft AND I just do not see them using both picks on offensive players

I really would like it if we could get both Quinn and our future great QB - I think both would help the franchise over many years

P A T I E N C E - Scot & Jay's goal here is to make this franchise better - it will take time they understand the need to change to primarily building through the draft - plus have some luck go their way

Red_One43 wrote:.... It looks like you are introducing another option - don't take Jones if we can't trade down because you don't want the first two picks for offense because you are sure, IYO, that the Skins will take a QB. I translate to mean you want a defensive player rather than Jones. Since you didn't specific who, may I pencil you in for Quinn since he has been already introduced on this thread?

I hope we don't have to use the #10 pick

I assume you mean trade down, so yes, TRADE DOWN even if it means passing on Jones and Quinn,

I think Jones will be a really good WR in the NFL

Agreed

I think that Quinn will really help our defense

My only question with Quinn is can he make that transition to OLB in the 3-4. Haslett promised Andre Carter that his scheme would be different than the 49ers, so he wouldn't have to do pass coverage much and that may have rang true, but when Carter did drop back into coverage he was horrible. We didn't get much production outof him as a pass rusher either. Some guys struggle to make that transition even if they start out their career making that transition. Anthony Spencer a former first round choice for Dallas comes to mind.

Bust Report: Anthony Spencer SucksNo NFL executive or scout can guarantee that a first-round pick is going to be the next star on your football team, but in the case of Anthony Spencer, I am not sure anyone expected him to look this bad. The Dallas Cowboys made the big mistake of letting Greg Ellis go and giving the starting [...]

I do not prefer either but I think that Jones may prove to be the better player

Most scouting "experts" now rate Jones higher than Quinn. If Quinn is drafted by a 4-3 team, his chances of being a star go higher.

I think that we are going to take a QB with 1 of the first 2 picks in this draft AND I just do not see them using both picks on offensive players

To me, for Shanny to use the first pick on a QB, he has to believe that that is his guy. I want to believe that there is no QB out there that is his guy only potentially can be his guy and I think that is in this order Locker, Ponder and Dalton. I agree one pick will be on defense with the exception if Jones is available and no one trades with us. I think Shanny will take Jones and then a QB. A key here is what does Shanny and HAslett see in the development of Chrs Wilson and Rob Jackson at LB. If they think that these guys are coming along, it would be easier to pass on Quinn.

I really would like it if we could get both Quinn and our future great QB - I think both would help the franchise over many years.

If this ended up being the way our first two picks ended up, I would not be disappointed. IF Quinn makes that transition to OLB, our D will be a force to reckon with for sure. I believe if Shanny takes Quinn, he has a plan to make it work. I would just have to sit back and hope it works and that he turns out in the mold of Ware and not Spencer.

I think that Quinn will be very coachable and even more important will play with a lot of intensity - 2 great features for a LB or DL
this guy looks really good and I think he should be rated a lot higher

First choice is to trade that pick - taking Jones would not be a bad choice either - I just don't see them going Jones and then a QB and hoping that the defense will get better with the players they have and by adding defensive players of the quality they will get with lower picks - but then again - I'm just a stupid Aussie

I know they can help the defense with a couple of free agents as well - I just would like to see one of these defensive guys that we have rated in the top 10 playing on our defense

P A T I E N C E - Scot & Jay's goal here is to make this franchise better - it will take time they understand the need to change to primarily building through the draft - plus have some luck go their way

SkinsJock wrote:I think that Quinn will be very coachable and even more important will play with a lot of intensity - 2 great features for a LB or DLthis guy looks really good and I think he should be rated a lot higher

First choice is to trade that pick - taking Jones would not be a bad choice either - I just don't see them going Jones and then a QB and hoping that the defense will get better with the players they have and by adding defensive players of the quality they will get with lower picks - but then again - I'm just a stupid Aussie

I know they can help the defense with a couple of free agents as well - I just would like to see one of these defensive guys that we have rated in the top 10 playing on our defense

Understand you on all three points! One would think that a team with several holes on defense and having two picks in the first 41 picks one would pick one defensive player. I don't think that it is stupid to think that way.
I am sure that ShanAllen have something cooking to trade down. Hopefully that cooking is completed by the time the clock runs out on #10.

Assuming that's true, so what? You wouldn't be drafting Jones for one year only. Should we trade ey just because we have a problem at qb right now? The point isn't just to build a team for 2011, and Jones has a higher upside than Quinn and probably any other player would be available at #10 (or #14).

With Quinn being a project at OLB, I have to agree with Canes that Jones has a stronger "can't miss" possibility than Quinn. As a DE in a 4-3, Quinn is porbably a sure bet, but there is an unknown at OLB. Is Quinn worth the 10, yes, but you have Rob Jackson and Chris Wilson developinp on your roster. Assuming Santana re-signs (and if he does he will most likey be the slot), we only have one other receiver on the roster that made an impact.

As far as Grossman, check Grossman vs. McNabb last year. Grossman his Santana in the hands in stride during the fourth quarter (Moss dropped it). He hit Armsrong in stride for the TD against NYG. This stuff about questioning Jones developing under Grossman is nonsense. See my earlier post. You can bet that Shanny has a plan to shore up this O line which will help any QB we have play better than last year.

Quinn's not a project. Had he played last year he would be a top five pick this season. Mayock has him in the mix for #1 overall pick two months ago. Mayock and McShay has him to Cleveland at #7 McShay and Kiper has him to Houston Kiper and Bunting has him to Washington Bunting so most have him as a top ten prospect, even with the year off.

I don't mind the argument but let's not undersell Quinn because some favor Jones.

Mayock says:

"I think the kid has rare and elite skills for a defensive end in the National Football League," NFL Network senior draft analyst Mike Mayock said of Quinn (who is Mayock's No. 1-rated defensive end) on Path to the Draft, though he still thinks he projects better as a 4-3 DE than a 3-4 OLB.

For our argument, you failed to address my point that Quinn's coverage skills are unknown. Thus Quinn is a project at OLB.Think back to Orakpo's rookie year. To maximize his talent, he was placed in the DE position where he got most of his sacks. You can't do that with Quinn on a 3-4 team. Orakpo isn't the best cover LB either. He is still learning. So, with Quinn, you might have to OLBs trying to learn how to cover. Von Miller stayed in school to coincentrate on his coverage skills and he was an OLB.

Orakpo got most of his sacks playing DE as a rookie because the DC didn't like to blitz.

Hmmm, that's a simplistic way of looking at things. I thougt DCs looked at their talent and maximized it, at the same time, trying to foil offenses' plans by utilizing that talent in multiple ways. If I recall, Orakpo was a stud pass rusher coming out of college and not a stud pass coverage guy (I don't think he was an anything pass covarage guy coming out of college). Makes sense for DC to put him at DE on passing downs. Hmmm, didn't another Redskin DC move an LB to DE on passing downs to get the most out of him? Now, wouldn't you say there might be a little chance the DC had another reason than just not liking to blitz?

SI.com: Looking back to last season, do you think you were miscast as a defensive end on passing downs?

LA: I just think that we did what was needed for the team. And that's the bottom line, whether I liked it or not. It was to try and make this team as good as we could possibly make it at that time.

SI.com: You made the Pro Bowl last year again, but in your heart did it feel like a Pro Bowl season for you?

LA: Yeah, heck yeah. Eleven sacks. I led all linebackers in sacks. Tied for the lead on the team in tackles. I'm going to do my part. But I could have been better, and that's the thing that bothered me. I tried to overcome a lot and I overcame a lot. But a Pro Bowl season, yeah, I know I had a Pro Bowl season. But I can do better though.

CanesSkins26 wrote:I don't trade that pick. If you look at most of the projections/analyses of this draft, the general consensus is that there are about 9-10 elite prospects in this draft. While 10 to 14 might not seem like a big drop, the difference in the caliber of player that were are able to get if we stay put versus trading down could be significant. I'd also be more inclined to do this draft if I had confidence that our front office could do something meaningful with that 3rd round pick that we would get from the Rams. However, under Allen the bucs absolutely sucked in the draft and Shanny had his fare share of drafting issues as well with the Broncos.

True dat homey. Who knows what we'll get with that 3rd rd pick or even the 14th.

Julio Jones is a top 5 talent that coincidently is a position of need. Not often that the best player remaining on the board matches up so nicely with your needs. If we are lucky enough for him to fall to us, (without the Rams or Texans jumping up to 9), we should rush to the podium to claim him. I fear the cowboys are very eager to trade back from 9 actually, and we will get jumped.

The argument that we can't draft him since we don't have a QB is illogical. Not to mention the fact that Grossman isn't near as bad as his reputation, and gasp, if you listen to him and the coaching staff, he/they think he can be good in our system. Let the public flogging begin. Whatever, I've seen the guy play really good and really bad, but he's been in this offense for a few years now, and last I saw he did pretty good with the same crappy line and WR's that none of our other QB's could do anything with.

Back to the point... as a Vol fan and avid SEC football watcher, I will promise you that Julio Jones is the real deal. He is no Rod Gardner or Michael Westbrook. That guy works, and comes to town to kick ass. Take a gander at last years Tennessee/Alabama game if you want to see one of the baddest WR performances you've ever seen (12 rec 200+ yds). He's a big game player who always seems to make the big play in big spots. dingdingdingdingding... what are, Things the Skins lack year after year, Alex? What I wouldn't give for the Skins to have a player like that. Check out his numbers against LSU, Auburn, South Carolina, etc... Also, keep in mind that he did his damage while playing in a run first offense where he saw constant double teams.

I've been watching this guy for a few years hoping he would one day wear the Burgandy and Gold, but always figured he's be a top 5 type pick (not that that would eliminate us from contention for his services, dohhh!) If he shows up at 10, we say thanks and plug him in for the next decade for D coordinators to have to deal with.

We should make the choice to trade the pick OR to use the pick based on the best interests of this franchise going forward

If we have little to no faith in this FO based on what Allen did for the Bucs or while Mike was in Denver, then we have little chance of anything good happening here anyway

we should make the choice based on the thinking that we might pick a really great player with that #10 pick OR we could pick up a bunch of good players by increasing the number of picks we have in the top 100

I'm hoping that the bad things these guys did is behind them - but then, I don't see much point in constantly AND endlessly pointing out ALL the things that are going to happen here just because these 2 guys that are now in charge of our FO have no chance of making anything good happen here

this is our FO for at least another year IMO - hopefully things will CONTINUE to improve with this franchise because of the good things they do

P A T I E N C E - Scot & Jay's goal here is to make this franchise better - it will take time they understand the need to change to primarily building through the draft - plus have some luck go their way

CanesSkins26 wrote:I don't trade that pick. If you look at most of the projections/analyses of this draft, the general consensus is that there are about 9-10 elite prospects in this draft. While 10 to 14 might not seem like a big drop, the difference in the caliber of player that were are able to get if we stay put versus trading down could be significant. I'd also be more inclined to do this draft if I had confidence that our front office could do something meaningful with that 3rd round pick that we would get from the Rams. However, under Allen the bucs absolutely sucked in the draft and Shanny had his fare share of drafting issues as well with the Broncos.

True dat homey. Who knows what we'll get with that 3rd rd pick or even the 14th.

Julio Jones is a top 5 talent that coincidently is a position of need. Not often that the best player remaining on the board matches up so nicely with your needs. If we are lucky enough for him to fall to us, (without the Rams or Texans jumping up to 9), we should rush to the podium to claim him. I fear the cowboys are very eager to trade back from 9 actually, and we will get jumped.

The argument that we can't draft him since we don't have a QB is illogical. Not to mention the fact that Grossman isn't near as bad as his reputation, and gasp, if you listen to him and the coaching staff, he/they think he can be good in our system. Let the public flogging begin. Whatever, I've seen the guy play really good and really bad, but he's been in this offense for a few years now, and last I saw he did pretty good with the same crappy line and WR's that none of our other QB's could do anything with.

Back to the point... as a Vol fan and avid SEC football watcher, I will promise you that Julio Jones is the real deal. He is no Rod Gardner or Michael Westbrook. That guy works, and comes to town to kick ass. Take a gander at last years Tennessee/Alabama game if you want to see one of the baddest WR performances you've ever seen (12 rec 200+ yds). He's a big game player who always seems to make the big play in big spots. dingdingdingdingding... what are, Things the Skins lack year after year, Alex? What I wouldn't give for the Skins to have a player like that. Check out his numbers against LSU, Auburn, South Carolina, etc... Also, keep in mind that he did his damage while playing in a run first offense where he saw constant double teams.

I've been watching this guy for a few years hoping he would one day wear the Burgandy and Gold, but always figured he's be a top 5 type pick (not that that would eliminate us from contention for his services, dohhh!) If he shows up at 10, we say thanks and plug him in for the next decade for D coordinators to have to deal with.

There is a Juilo Jones (elite WR) in every draft, why waste the 10th pick on one this year? I say waste because this team needs more than a top ten WR to get it's head above water. Trading down from ten is what they need to do, this way the can address more than on hole. With additional picks the can address both sides of the ball early. If they had a QB to throw the ball to JJ, it might make me feel different but they don't have one of those yet....

Historically the draft is a hit or miss experiment with more misses as you get further away from the top. If we trade down to acquire more players who end up sucking, we wouldn't be the first to do that. Even the "genius" Belicheck traded down instead of drafting Clay Matthews in 2009... TWICE! think the Pats could have used Matthews against young Mark Sanchez last year in the playoffs?

Either way can work. I typically tend to like the idea of trading down, but not if a top 5 value guy is available to us at 10. and no, that scenario does not remotely occur every year. there may (or may not be) 1 or 2 great WR's every year, but the opportunity to acquire them and under pay is not common.

We do have multiple holes, but with the draft coming before free agency this year, I think/hope we'll lean even stronger toward the "best player available" drafting philosophy, and fill holes later with free agents.

Not really. Since 2007 and Calvin Johnson, no player coming out of college has had the potential that both Green and Jones have (including Crabtree). It's quite rare to have two receivers of this caliber in one draft. Even with the Calvin Johnson draft, the second wr taken was Ginn Jr., who is not even close to the level of Jones and Green. Most years Jones is a top 5 pick. However, with Green also in this draft, we have a chance to get great value at #10 by drafting Jones (if he is even available).

Last edited by CanesSkins26 on Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

The argument that we can't draft him since we don't have a QB is illogical. Not to mention the fact that Grossman isn't near as bad as his reputation, and gasp, if you listen to him and the coaching staff, he/they think he can be good in our system. Let the public flogging begin. Whatever, I've seen the guy play really good and really bad, but he's been in this offense for a few years now, and last I saw he did pretty good with the same crappy line and WR's that none of our other QB's could do anything with.

Way to make your case funbuncher. When you look at Grossman's three games overall, he did look to bad at all in running the O. In the game he struggled, Jax, the Skins won, so the W was most important. In the other two games what killed what was an otherwise very good performance in both games was his turnovers (I can't rmember the count but wasn't it something like 8 in three games). With a better line and even more familiarity with the O, Grossman could prove to be a capable fill in QB for the year.

Back to the point... as a Vol fan and avid SEC football watcher, I will promise you that Julio Jones is the real deal. He is no Rod Gardner or Michael Westbrook. That guy works, and comes to town to kick ass. Take a gander at last years Tennessee/Alabama game if you want to see one of the baddest WR performances you've ever seen (12 rec 200+ yds). He's a big game player who always seems to make the big play in big spots. dingdingdingdingding... what are, Things the Skins lack year after year, Alex? What I wouldn't give for the Skins to have a player like that. Check out his numbers against LSU, Auburn, South Carolina, etc... Also, keep in mind that he did his damage while playing in a run first offense where he saw constant double teams.

I do love the way you take a stand. Perhaps, if I had seen him play as much as you, I wouldn't be a attempt to trade down guy even with him on the board. BTW, I do think your guarantee will hold up.