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Yes, I am certain I over-reacted, confusing the lovely song with that silly ceremony. My apologies.

I will never let fairy tales, superstition and incantations in the door here, and I sometimes may over-react at the mere hint. Again, my apologies. But honestly, I think that such things are what Saya ... and we ... truly do not need in the face of such ugliness.

Yes, I am certain I over-reacted, confusing the lovely song with that silly ceremony. My apologies.

I will never let fairy tales, superstition and incantations in the door here, and I sometimes may over-react at the mere hint. Again, my apologies. But honestly, I think that such things are what Saya ... and we ... truly do not need in the face of such ugliness.

Gassho, Jundo

I agree. To me, invoking superstition is no different than the endless facebook slacktivism declaring that if you "like" some photo you somehow helped fight hunger. It is worse than ineffective, as it allows you to feel like you have accomplished something without having done anything.

In a spring outside time, flowers bloom on a withered tree;
you ride a jade elephant backwards, chasing the winged dragon-deer;
now as you hide far beyond innumerable peaks--
the white moon, a cool breeze, the dawn of a fortunate day

I agree. To me, invoking superstition is no different than the endless facebook slacktivism declaring that if you "like" some photo you somehow helped fight hunger. It is worse than ineffective, as it allows you to feel like you have accomplished something without having done anything.

I have the same reservations with the "metta chant". But, I do it anyway because I just don't know. Even if it just puts me in the shoes of another, makes me consider another viewpoint... I just don't know.

As a priest in training, please take everything I say with a pinch of salt

I have the same reservations with the "metta chant". But, I do it anyway because I just don't know. Even if it just puts me in the shoes of another, makes me consider another viewpoint... I just don't know.

I view the metta chant as being practice for me. Practice at showing compassion for people that I am normally neutral towards or flat out dislike.

I believe that we all change the world and the world changes us. The state of our body-mind constanly affects those around us and those around us constantly affect the state of our body-mind. When we are poisoned with greed, hate and delusion, we unconsciously express it with our whole body, our whole presence, even when we don't say a single word. A very unbalanced person can make all those around him or her uncomfortable. That discomfort may develop into fear, the fear may lead to anger and anger to hate (as master Yoda would have said) and the poison turns into a contagious disease.

But the opposite is also true. And this is where I feel practice changes the world. When you are free from the three poisons, you instead radiate peace, compassion, kindness, which is contagious too. You start to really see people, really listen to people. And people feel more confident and secure around you. Healing takes place and spreads like rings on the water. Like a butterfly flapping its wings on one side of the globe could cause a hurricane on the other, a kind word could have greater consequences than we can imagine.

None of us are insignificant, unimportant. The ability to change the world is a super power we all possess! We are all part of the whole (all of the whole even), so it is vitally important that we take care, because it does matter.

So take care,

Gassho,
Pontus

In a spring outside time, flowers bloom on a withered tree;
you ride a jade elephant backwards, chasing the winged dragon-deer;
now as you hide far beyond innumerable peaks--
the white moon, a cool breeze, the dawn of a fortunate day

In a spring outside time, flowers bloom on a withered tree;
you ride a jade elephant backwards, chasing the winged dragon-deer;
now as you hide far beyond innumerable peaks--
the white moon, a cool breeze, the dawn of a fortunate day

I understand the benefit to me, I just wonder about the benefit to those I chant metta "for". It changes from something to benefit others to something that benefits me. That's why I just don't know.

Shugen

By benefitting you it benefits others. There is not two. Imho. When I chant metta or EJKG I don't think something magical is going to happen. It has happened, is happening and will continue to happen. When I focus my thoughts and attention to Saya, regardless of the method, I build compassion, empathy and awareness. For me, this is by reading on her situation, sitting for her and yes, chanting whatever builds that connection. Whether it is something unintelligible like darani or something melodic and emotionally inspiring like Krishna Das.

I don't have any answers, just my practice, and currently this is it.

Thank you Taigu for bringing her to my heart. Thank you Jundo for making me think more deeply about why I practice. Thank you Hans for the KD music...he's been one of my long time favourites. (I actually chant the verse of the robe to his melody of Sita Ram).

This conversation is really about the best way to respond to the Sayas and other sadness of the world ... please don't think we are talking about anything else.

Originally Posted by rculver

... I just wonder about the benefit to those I chant metta "for" ...

Originally Posted by Omoi Otoshi

I believe that we all change the world and the world changes us. The state of our body-mind constanly affects those around us and those around us constantly affect the state of our body-mind. When we are poisoned with greed, hate and delusion, we unconsciously express it with our whole body, our whole presence, even when we don't say a single word. A very unbalanced person can make all those around him or her uncomfortable. That discomfort may develop into fear, the fear may lead to anger and anger to hate (as master Yoda would have said) and the poison turns into a contagious disease.

But the opposite is also true. And this is where I feel practice changes the world. When you are free from the three poisons, you instead radiate peace, compassion, kindness, which is contagious too. You start to really see people, really listen to people. And people feel more confident and secure around you. Healing takes place and spreads like rings on the water. Like a butterfly flapping its wings on one side of the globe could cause a hurricane on the other, a kind word could have greater consequences than we can imagine.

I agree with Pontus. I chant Metta for suffering folks with the feeling that a small drop of peace, compassion, kindness in my heart will be one more small drop of goodness in the world, like a ripple from a small stone. If all human beings added one drop by one drop, soon this would be a very different world. Kindness and peace in my heart really do tend to change the friends and family around me too, and how we relate, in very real ways (anger and disturbance tend to have opposite effect). When I "send some Metta", I really try to feel it figuratively reaching the person (though I know that the feeling is mostly in my own heart). Some actions by me might have even wider effects as the ripples spread, a few now and then even helping to change events across the world. We can work to make this a better world, and someday we will ... in which all the children live in peace, war and violence are of the past.

That is magic enough for me. Beyond that, I am doubtful of overly magical and mysterious interpretations of it all ... as if mysterious auras and energies are moving across hidden astral planes to change events. I will not even attempt to re-interpret the meaning of those "auras" and "planes" and such to make them seem somehow real and reasonable ... for they are not. I will not encourage a ceremony or practice that smacks of such superstition, and that is what the "Gate of Sweet Nectar" is ... (The ceremony, not the little song based on the ceremony. I am reminded of a conversation I spotted today on a Buddhist Forum by several folks discussing how to removing an Asura demi-god who is haunting a house. Have a read, it is fascinating .... http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=9714 ).

Truly, and although I would like it otherwise, I doubt that my bit of Metta here will have much of an actual impact to help poor Saya. Most good ripples never get very far, and even those that do may have unexpected results ... like that butterfly that may spawn a deadly hurricane, or the act of kindness which somewhere down the line starts a chain of dominoes leading to war. I do not believe in some simplistic Buddhist formula of "good actions have good effects" in some 1-to-1 correspondence. All we can do is aspire for our actions to have the good, intended effects ... try our best ... and hope it works out. Any aid or relief worker will tell you that even the best designed program will rarely go fully as it should, and so for our little actions as individuals. But if we are careful, much good can be done.

Still, I add a drop of Metta ... drop by drop ... with the aspiration that it will send out ripples of change, and change me, in positive ways. If, someday, the whole world would learn to wish each other such peace, contentment, equanimity and well-being, it will be a very different world. That would be "magic" and marvelous enough.

And, yes, this is a conversation about the best ways to aid and empathize with Saya and all those like her.

This conversation is really about the best way to respond to the Sayas and other sadness of the world ... please don't think we are talking about anything else.

I agree with Pontus. I chant Metta for suffering folks with the feeling that a small drop of peace, compassion, kindness in my heart will be one more small drop of goodness in the world, like a ripple from a small stone. If all human beings added one drop by one drop, soon this would be a very different world. Kindness and peace in my heart really do tend to change the friends and family around me too, and how we relate, in very real ways (anger and disturbance tend to have opposite effect). When I "send some Metta", I really try to feel it figuratively reaching the person (though I know that the feeling is mostly in my own heart). Some actions by me might have even wider effects as the ripples spread, a few now and then even helping to change events across the world. We can work to make this a better world, and someday we will ... in which all the children live in peace, war and violence are of the past.

That is magic enough for me. Beyond that, I am doubtful of overly magical and mysterious interpretations of it all ... as if mysterious auras and energies are moving across hidden astral planes to change events. I will not even attempt to re-interpret the meaning of those "auras" and "planes" and such to make them seem somehow real and reasonable ... for they are not. I will not encourage a ceremony or practice that smacks of such superstition, and that is what the "Gate of Sweet Nectar" is ... (The ceremony, not the little song based on the ceremony. I am reminded of a conversation I spotted today on a Buddhist Forum by several folks discussing how to removing an Asura demi-god who is haunting a house. Have a read, it is fascinating .... http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=9714 ).

Truly, though I would like it otherwise, I doubt that my bit of Metta here will have much of an actual impact to help poor Saya. Most good ripples never get very far, and even those that do may have unexpected results ... like that butterfly that may spawn a deadly hurricane, or the act of kindness which somewhere down the line starts a chain of dominoes leading to war. I do not believe in some simplistic Buddhist formula of "good actions have good effects" in some 1-to-1 correspondence. All we can do is aspire for our actions to have the good, intended effects ... try our best ... and hope it works out. Any aid or relief worker will tell you that even the best designed program will rarely go fully as it should, and so for our little actions as individuals. But if we are careful, much good can be done.

Still, I add a drop of Metta ... drop by drop ... with the aspiration that it will send out ripples of change, and change me, in positive ways. If, someday, the whole world would learn to wish each other such peace, contentment, equanimity and well-being, it will be a very different world. That would be "magic" and marvelous enough.

And, yes, this is a conversation about the best ways to aid and empathize with Saya and all those like her.

Now, both Jundo and Pontus speak my mind, the magic is precisely taking place here and now and will gradually change both your heart and attitude. This is how I could forgive my father understanding there was nothing and nobody to forgive, one drop at a time, years of sitting, chanting, just accepting and being with what is. Beyond I don t know and don t care. this is what I tried to express in the clumsy prose about Dogen s poem.
Thank you all for making some space in your life for Saya and all those who fall, and doing so ploughing your own empty field with seeds of compassion.

Also, except for Taigu, none of us have actually met the woman named Saya. In sitting for Saya we sit for Taigu, because we know what she means to him. And we sit for ourselves, but not selfishly, ploughing our own empty field with seeds of compassion as Taigu says. And we sit for the symbolic Saya described to us by Taigu, respresenting people suffering in Syria and everywhere. And originally, from the absolute point of view, you, me, Taigu, Saya are not separate, so in sitting for Saya, the whole universe is sitting for Saya, Taigu, me, you, everyone.

Gassho,
Pontus

Last edited by Omoi Otoshi; 08-31-2012 at 06:17 AM.

In a spring outside time, flowers bloom on a withered tree;
you ride a jade elephant backwards, chasing the winged dragon-deer;
now as you hide far beyond innumerable peaks--
the white moon, a cool breeze, the dawn of a fortunate day