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"And you see the mountains, thinking them rigid, while they will pass as the passing of clouds. [It is] the work of Allah, who perfected all things. Indeed, He is Acquainted with that which you do." 27:88

Clouds are created and move due to Cold fronts meeting Warm Fronts. Mountains are formed and move due to two tectonic plates meeting. Searched for both illustrations on google, MS Paint Collage

I posted this on Atheism and they casually dismissed it. It disgusts me how they turn a blind eye when you present them with clear signs.

As a former muslim myself, i used to believe and was able to list many miracles in the Quran. Then i found the internet. Read the next line carefully:
E
ach and every "Scientific Claim" made has been debunked, by science, Arabic linguistics, and something called rational.

I know its hard to hear and you will dismiss me, but as Islam taught me that Da3wa is a part of being a muslim, then educating people about the falseness of Islam should be a part of me being a good human. Hope that made sense

The Quran is miraculous - describing natural phenomeon in a way that the people of Arabia had no knowledge of has little to do with it though. The scientific miracles approach is usually taken with people who insist that nothing exists without scientific or empirical indication but it is hardly the best or even a good "proof" of Islam.

The sign isn't the "prediction", it's the clouds and mountains themselves and the order in nature pointed out by the verse (whether you believe the order is in their natural movement or in the effects of time upon them).

Also, there's a misconception surrounding miraculous scientific predictions. You can't jump from 7th century science into plate tectonics even if someone told you about the basic idea straight out. Science is a meticulous process that takes work built on even more work.

There can be no "jumps" in scientific knowledge because it is a holistic model of accumulated knowledge from experience. It does go through sudden transformations though (paradigm shifts).

I suppose a detailed miraculous prediction could accelerate progress by possibly pointing people in the right direction but it would be impossible to gauge just how much effect it had (as if people weren't exploring every possible avenue to begin with in any given field).

The "acceleration of progress" could resemble a jump if you made shorter predictions (i.e, give knowledge from 2030 to someone in 2012) or if you gave a really long and completely detailed prediction which contained all the rest of the body of scientific knowledge. But then we wouldn't have a Qur'an, we'd have a Divine Encyclopedia on geology and earth science. :| And it would depend on if you could act on the information provided because until it's turned into experimentally tested results (and if it's not connected to past theories in any way, i.e, a new theory to be tested) it's not science.

Ah, the easiest way to recognize a redditor, shouting names of random logical fallacies without knowing what they mean or if they apply to the situation at hand.

There are no goalposts to move because there is no goal here. I do not believe in scientific (predictive) miracles of the Qur'an. It's not moving the goalposts, it's abolishing them. Something an atheist might want to agree with though I suppose the irrational and emotional among them would downvote anything that isn't directly saying God cannot exist.

I'm saying such a "scientific" miracle isn't possible because of the nature of science. To ask for this miracle is to posit that such a thing can exist which makes claims about the nature of science that are false.

If what OP defines as a "scientific miracle" occurred, it wouldn't be scientific.

Exactly similar signs can be created from any book, and vague prophecies are based on this fallacy.

Nostradamus and Revelation are good examples of that. Both prophecies are so vague, that people manage to apply them to dozens of completely different events. The Biblical and Quranic miracles are based on the same trick, as is this post.

it was dismissed because there is nothing significant there. it doesn't say 'clouds created like mountains', but passing as the passing of the clouds. you have added the word created to add significance where none exists.

EDIT: so you were dismissed by atheists. i haven't had a single reply. but wait, a downvote?

That is a very narrow incidental view. When Allah says in the same verse, "such is the creation of Allah who perfected (in the past) all things" and that the mountains are moving (present), I can go further as to say, Allah basically and obviously set the stage and perfected all things among them how the mountains move over millions of years the way we can see clouds move.
Inama yakhsha allaha min 3ibadihi al3ulamae.

why the fuck does your goddamn book not say "mountains are formed by plates of landmass floating on viscous rock being pushing against each other through convection currents. and btw, earth is a fucking sphere".

And indeed We have fully explained to mankind, in this Qur'ân, every kind of similitude, but most mankind refuse (the truth and accept nothing) but disbelief. [17:89]

the explanation (tafsir) of Qur'an is with Qur'an, then with Sunnah, then with understanding of sahaba (righteous companions of prophet Muhammad - the best of generations) and tabeein (righteous successors, who learned from sahaba).

the context of the time and place of revelation or reason/situation for revelation needs to be taken into account.

you did nothing of it, except talking from the top of your head, without knowledge.

I will help you with a proper tafsir, so that you see how it can look:

Intro to the short Sura At-Tin (Surah 95, 8 ayat, which contains the verse you talked about):

Its theme is the rewards and punishments of the Hereafter. For this purpose first swearing an oath by the habitats of some illustrious Prophets, it has been stated that Allah has created man in the most excellent of moulds. Although at other places in the Quran, this truth has been expressed in different ways, for example, at some places it has been said: "Allah appointed man His vicegerent on the earth and commanded the angels to bow down to him (Al-Baqarah: 30,34, Al-Anam: 165, Al-Araf: 11, Al-Hijr 28,29, An-Naml: 62, Suad 71- 73);" at others that: "Man has become bearer of the Divine trust, which the earth and the heavens and the mountains did not have the power to bear (Al-Ahzab 72);" and at still others that: "We honored the children of Adam and exalted them above many of Our other creatures (Bani Israil 70)," yet here the statement made on oath in particular by the habitats of the Prophets that man has been created in the finest of moulds, signifies that mankind has been blessed with such an excellent mould and nature that it gave birth to men capable of attaining to the highest position of Prophethood, a higher position than which has not been attained by any other creature of God.

Then, it has been stated that there are two kinds of men. those who in spite of having been created in the finest of moulds, become inclined to evil and their moral degeneration causes them to be reduced to the lowest of the low, and those who by adopting the way of faith and righteousness remain secure from the degeneration and consistent with the noble position, which is the necessary demand of their having been created in the best of moulds. The existence among mankind of both these kinds of men is such a factual thing which no one can deny, for it is being observed and experienced in society everywhere at all times.

In conclusion, this factual reality has been used as an argument to prove that when among the people there are these two separate and quite distinct kinds, how can one deny the judgment and retribution for deeds If the morally degraded are not punished and the morally pure and exalted arc not rewarded and both end in the dust alike, it would mean that there is no justice in the Kingdom of God; whereas human nature and common sense demand that a judge should do justice. How then can one conceive that Allah, Who is the most just of all judges, would not do justice?

وَالتِّينِ وَالزَّيْتُونِ

1. By At-Tin and Az-Zaytun. (the fig and the olive)

Allah swears by His creation, and only He is allowed to swear by it.

Al-'Awfi reported from Ibn 'Abbas that

what is meant by At-Tin is the Masjid of Nuh (prophet Noah) that was built upon Mount Al-Judi. Mujahid said, "It is this fig that you have.''

وَالزَّيْتُونِ

(By Az-Zaytun.) (the olive)

Ka'b Al-Ahbar, Qatadah, Ibn Zayd and others have said,

"It is the Masjid of Jerusalem (Bayt Al-Maqdis).'' Mujahid and 'Ikrimah said, "It is this olive which you press (to extract the oil).''

and both opinions are correct.

وَطُورِ سِينِينَ

2. By Tur Sinin. (By Mount Sinai)

Ka'b Al-Ahbar and several others have said, "It is the mountain upon which Allah spoke to Musa.''

وَهَـذَا الْبَلَدِ الاٌّمِينِ

3. By this city of security. (Mekkah)

This was said by Ibn 'Abbas, Mujahid, 'Ikrimah, Al-Hasan, Ibrahim An-Nakha'i, Ibn Zayd and Ka'b Al-Ahbar. There is no difference of opinion about this. Some of the Imams have said that these are three different places, and that Allah sent a Messenger to each of them from the Leading Messengers, who delivered the Great Codes of Law. The first place is that of the fig and the olive, which was Jerusalem, where Allah sent 'Isa bin Maryam. The second place is Mount Sinin, which is Mount Sinai where Allah spoke to Musa bin 'Imran. The third place is Makkah, and it is the city of security where whoever enters is safe. It is also the city in which Muhammad was sent. They have said that these three places are mentioned at the end of the Tawrah. The verse says, "Allah has come from Mount Sinai - meaning the one upon which Allah spoke to Musa bin 'Imran; and shined from Sa'ir - meaning the mountain of Jerusalem from which Allah sent 'Isa; and appeared from the mountains of Faran - meaning the mountains of Makkah from which Allah sent 'Isa; and appeared from the mountains of Faran - meaning the mountains of Makkah from which Allah sent Muhammad .'' Thus, He mentioned them in order to inform about them based upon their order of existence in time. This is why He swore by a noble place, then by a nobler place, and then by a place that is the nobler than both of them.

لَقَدْ خَلَقْنَا الإِنسَـنَ فِى أَحْسَنِ تَقْوِيمٍ

4. Verily, We created man in the best form (also best stature (mould))

This is the subject being sworn about, and it is that Allah created man in the best image and form, standing upright with straight limbs that He beautified. This can refer to Adam, the first man, who was created perfectly in paradise, but can also refer to his children, that they were created with a sound fitra (natural predisposition to recognize their Creator and behave in a good way).

ثُمَّ رَدَدْنَـهُ أَسْفَلَ سَـفِلِينَ

5. Then We reduced him to the lowest of the low.

This can mean old age (This has been reported from Ibn 'Abbas and 'Ikrimah) or forgetfullness. Also it can mean to the Hellfire. This was said by Mujahid, Abu Al-'Aliyah, Al-Hasan, Ibn Zayd and others.

Then after this attractiveness and beauty, their destination will be to the Hellfire if they disobey Allah and belie the Messengers.

إِلاَّ الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ وَعَمِلُواْ الصَّـلِحَـتِ

فَلَهُمْ أَجْرٌ غَيْرُ مَمْنُونٍ

6. Save those who believe and do righteous deeds. Then they shall have a reward without end.

And this statement is similar to "By Al-'Asr. Verily man is in loss, except those who believe and perform righteous deeds." (103:1-3)

reward without end, means eternal paradise, without death and without end.

فَمَا يُكَذِّبُكَ

بَعْدُ بِالدِّينِ

7. Then what causes you to deny after this the Recompense

meaning, "O Son of Adam!", how can you deny, for indeed you know the beginning, and you know that He Who is able to begin (the creation) is also able to repeat it which is easier.

أَلَيْسَ اللَّهُ بِأَحْكَمِ الْحَـكِمِينَ

8. Is not Allah the best of judges

a rhetorical question, is He not the best of judges. And from His justice is that He will establish the Judgement, and He will give retribution to the person who was wronged in this life against whoever wronged him.

You obviously don't know Arabic. You can question the translations all you want, and righteously so, but the translation is not the Quran. The Quran IS THE Quran. You can't question the Quran.

Now, I looked it up in the Quran e.g arabic and the word used is yawm. Yawm, look it up yourself if you don't believe, can have several meanings ranging from "day" to "period" to "moment" to a "certain time". Also please note that days doesn't necessarily have to be equal to earth days (although I think the former is right). The Quran doesn't have to please you.

Even if you disregard that fact, which I ignorantly assume you will, is it not possible for God (who can do everything) to create everything in a certain state? For all I know, we were created 5 seconds ago, but God gave everyone implemented memories and certain attributes. You don't know. I have this memory right now, but with every passing second, what do I know that God may have created me right then and there?

No problem. No idea why I got downvoted though, presuming the "question everything" and "you can't question the quran" part which people then obviously didn't understand.

We do not know why it's 6 "yawm". Only God knows that.

Have you seen the science thread yesterday or so? The Quran is a book of knowledge and guidance, not science. People shouldn't interpret it as a scientific book.

And you do have somewhat a point, but Allah created the Quran as such that it's poetic, elegant and mysterious. Even today, we don't understand everything in the Quran. 1400 years after its revelation.

I agree though, people should not use the Qur'an as a book of science, because it is not. It is a way of guidance and brings forth a lifestyle.

this wall of text contains wisdom and truth, but since you confirm that you are an ignorant fool that has the attention span of a 2yr old - stay misguided, if you so desire.

and be aware that we explained to you, that Islam is the true religion of our and your Creator, so don't come with excuses when you are resurrected from your grave and find yourself surrounded by fire.

atheists don't have obligation to take such ludicrous quranic claims seriously.
i am an ex-muslim who has read the quran, a book which is mostly filled with claims that a teenager can tear apart with ease.

Dude, I think you misconstrued the meaning of the word "pass." It does not mean the movement of mountains is similar to the movement of clouds, but that the mountains will fade like the clouds over the passage of time. The mountains will pass just as the clouds pass. This isn't science, this is saying that nothing is permanent.

this is describing what is happening in the end of times or at the day of judgement.

there will be many strange and miraculous events, and there is no problem with that, it's in the power of Allah to destroy the mountains, earth and in fact the entire universe (including every living being, angels and even the angel of death), before making a new creation.

tafsir ibn-kathir:

On the Day when the heaven will shake with a dreadful shaking, And the mountains pass moving away. (52:9-10) meaning, they will move from their places and will vanish. As Allah says: And you will see the mountains and think them solid, but they shall pass away as the passing away of the clouds. (27:88) And the mountains will be like carded wool. (101:5)

I don't think that tafsir is correct, based on the lack of scientific evidence they had back then. In this verse it describes how we see the mountains as in a state of rest, not moving, not changing. but then it says that they move like the movement of the clouds. (tamorro) moves/is moving in the present form that is a form that is universal through time. It's not marrat (past) or satamorro (future).

After that it says the creation of Allah who perfected all things, this makes it clear that it is referring to something that was set forth as part of how earth works normally and not as part of miracles and extraordinary events.
Wallah a3lam

And (remember) the Day on which the Trumpet will be blown and all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth, will be terrified except him whom Allâh will (exempt). And all shall come to Him humbled. [27:87]

I think it's in the same way as the previous verse is put, it's a sign of God that mountains move like clouds just like the night where we rest is a sign of God.

[28:86] Do they not see that We made the night that they may rest therein and the day giving sight? Indeed in that are signs for a people who believe.

[28:87] And [warn of] the Day the Horn will be blown, and whoever is in the heavens and whoever is on the earth will be terrified except whom Allah wills. And all will come to Him humbled.

[28:88] And you see the mountains, thinking them rigid, while they will pass as the passing of clouds. [It is] the work of Allah , who perfected all things. Indeed, He is Acquainted with that which you do.

the classical tafsir is correct and the ayah 88 refers to jaumu-l-qyiamah, because there are other similar descriptions, and the correct and agreed upon method of tafsir is to first and foremost interpret Qur'an with Qur'an:

On the Day when the earth and the mountains will be in violent shake, and the mountains will be a heap of sand poured out and flowing down. [73:14]

And when the mountains shall made to pass away; [81:3]

On the Day (when the first blowing of the Trumpet is blown), the earth and the mountains will shake violently (and everybody will die) [79:6]

etc.

in addition, his statement:

Mountains moving like clouds instead of being Rigid

is wrong for the current state of the earth, because:

And the mountains He has fixed firmly; [79:32] (Waaljibala arsaha)

And the mountains as pegs [78:7] (Waaljibala awtadan)

And have placed therein firm, and tall mountains (..) [77:27]

also in general, I see problems in deducing scientific miracles from qur'an ayat, because if the meaning is a different one, and you base your faith on this scientific interpretation, there's a high risk of going astray.

I've talked to a good student of knowledge from palestine who became atheist for a few months, because his scientific conclusions were brought down (alhamdulillah, after learning more, his faith increased again).

aljibala rawassia, Mountains as pegs is also a scientific fact. They are like anchors in the earth mantle. http://theislamshow.weebly.com/uploads/5/6/5/9/5659471/1331489.jpg?
The mountains grow, and move along with the mantle over millions of years just like the clouds move in a matter of days. look up Pangaea.
I can recognize and differentiate verses that display signs that we can already see, and verses that talk about the end of the time where the earth will be a flattened expanse and mountians will come crashing down (yawma takhirro aljibal)
Of course we don't need scientific miracles to support al quran al karim. They just give me a new level of appreciation that never ceases to amaze me.

I have read about pretty much all the popular so called "scientific miracles" in the Qur'an (from harun yahya to dr. zakir naik to prof. keith moore etc.), but for the reasons stated above, I'm not a huge fan of vague assumptions.

having said that, the example:

Mountains as pegs

is one of the stronger signs, that are in agreement with established science of today.

it's good that you want to appreciate the Qur'an more, but going the route of assumption and making up tafsir is not a good way imo.

I don't know why you don't wanna accept that meaning of that verse. It's in plain arabic and very simple.
"You see mountains, you assume they are at rest, but they are moving the movement of the clouds. That is the creation of Allah who perfected all things"
I'm not sure you are familiar of how mountains form and of tectonic plates movements, but that is very in line with those pretty much proven scientific theories.

I meant the tafsir of that aya in particular. I highly regard tafsir ibn kathir as the most acurate for the Quran as a whole. But to think that he is infallible especially being 700 years AH is simply associating perfection to him that we can't associate to anyone but our beloved Prophet.
But I still use logic as it's recommended to compare to scientific discoveries and proofs that were not discovered back then.
Don't tell me I'm not allowed to use logic because I will bring you a a verse that says otherwise.

yes, I know arabic (my father is from tunesia), but quranic arabic isn't simple arabic, it's fusha and the words have to be understood in context and with proper tafsir and understanding.

and yes, you are allowed to ponder over the ayat, but you are not allowed to make up your own conclusions based on a single ayat (classical example: وَاقْتُلُوهُمْ حَيْثُ ثَقِفْتُمُوهُمْ - Waoqtuloohum haythu thaqiftumoohum).

and since you didn't even notice the context of the endtimes, just one ayah before it, I assumed that you are jahil or a troll.

I noticed the aya before it, in fact i noticed the aya before that aya.
http://quran.com/27/86
Do they not see that We made the night that they may rest therein and the day giving sight? Indeed in that are signs for a people who believe.

Allah sub7anah wa ta3ala, includes verses in the Quran that are to remind us of the ayaat of our world as we see it. You should know that style by now. A surah about Naml is not going to be close minded talking only about ants in it's entirety. It talks about different subjects that matter too. I love the style of the Quran.
Wallah A3lam.

What you all don't get is how it's said in Arabic. The translation says "will pass" but in Arabic it is passing in the present form as in something that continually moves is like clouds. Mountains do move as contrary to humanity's belief before knowledge of geology has been elaborated by tectonic plates theory. I just went further and discovered a similarity even in their formation.
This is my own understanding and interpretation. You guys get what you wanna get out of it; in the end it's up to you.

LOL,you really expect these contrarian children to concede and say "oh, we were wrong"? Arguing with them is useless; they argue for the sake of arguing. They don't care what proof you have; they enjoy the "rebelliousness" of atheism.

I wrote something relevant recently, I think you might like it. Check it out.

Let's get something straight. If you think the Quran reveals scientific knowledge about the world you're suffering from hindsight bias, which is when you interpret verses after the fact of science already discovering it. If that interpretation was valid, ancient Muslims would have already discovered it, but they didn't.

The Quran does not clearly mention:

that the Earth orbits the sun, the age of the Earth, the distance to the sun, the distance to the moon, the size of the sun, the size of the moon, the size of other planets, the fact that the sun is a star, the distances to stars, the fact that other stars have planets, supernovae, white dwarfs, neutron stars, black holes, the milky way galaxy, other galaxies, Sagittarius A, the atom, the proton, the neutron, the electron, the positron, quarks, molecules, anti-matter, thermonuclear fusion, E=mc2, the space-time continuum, the laws of gravity, the laws of motion, time dilation, length contraction, the biological cell, single-celled organisms, microscopic organisms, DNA, viruses, germs causing disease, evolution of species, origin of humans in Africa, age of humanity, speciation from common ancestor with chimps, Ardipithecines, Australopithecines, Paranthropus, Neanderthals, Denisovans, inter-breeding between humans and neanderthals, etc.

I could go on and on but you get the point. Basically every field of science today is completely ignored by the Quran. If you try to take the Quran and portray it as a source of knowledge, you will make it look silly. It contains what was known at the time it was written, which was basically nothing about what we know about the universe today.

In modern science, Muslims have accumulated a grand total of 1 Nobel Prize (with another in economics). There are about 1.3 billion Muslims on this planet. The Quran did not give clues to the sole (co-)winner of this prize.

Any super-intelligent being who writes a book to inform human beings would not forget about the entire universe just to mention one random trivial fact in such a vague way that nobody comprehends it until after the fact.

Even if this passage were actually referring to tectonic shifts it does not demonstrate that there is a god. Human beings were able to discover the shifting of tectonic plates without the Quran and without the intervention of a divine being. It's not that we're rebellious. It's that you cannot reasonably support your clams.

Of course they dismissed it, I personally believe Muslims draw on the Quran and these science miracles too often.

And even if We had sent down unto them angels, and the dead had spoken unto them, and We had gathered together all things before their very eyes, they would not have believed, unless Allah willed, but most of them behave ignorantly. (6:111)

We need to remember that at the time of the prophet, people saw/heard the Quran miracle with their eyes/ears, they knew it was the truth but some still rejected it. You honestly think that posting a quranic verse in a /r/atheism saying mountains are like clouds is going to shake the core of an atheist?? No.

Allah is not going to ask you weather you showed them the 'science miracles' in the Quran. Allah will ask weather you modelled your life on the prophets, that's the best form of dawah.

Thanks for the mention, but just so you know we are not all rebellious kids. I came from UK which is generally a non-religious country (becomong a muslim as ALONOOBSTER said IS a rebellion for us!), I am 25 so not really a kid (though I agree i still have much to learn), I have downvoted 1 atheist who used poor and mocking language, and I am nowhere near someone to high-five right now, I much rather fistbumping.

Please use nicer language so we can continue discussions, and if we don't use nice language then please set the tone for us.