(19-05-2016 06:23 AM)Tomasia Wrote: But the thing here is, that I already believe in God, I can't choose not to believe in God. I can't stop myself from believing now, making myself lack a belief, than deliberate whether or not God exists, as if I don't hold a position already.

That's not quite the way it works. You don't have to "stop yourself from believing" in order to question your beliefs. That semantic question aside, the majority of present-day atheists have done exactly what you claim is impossible for you to do. They were raised as theists, questioned those beliefs at some point, and concluded that atheism makes more sense. There's no reason you couldn't do the same thing (although you might not reach the same conclusion).

(19-05-2016 07:27 AM)ClydeLee Wrote: Which is why the notion of believing having any value to any sway or notion of reward or disapproval is nonsensical on any front.

Strange how you seem to connect the notions of these questions one could have in an absolute or aggressively sidestepped way. So to you telling someone to doubt their own existence in your retelling of how its something you cant do its AVOID thinking you Do exist?

I didn't put in terms of thinking, but in terms of believing. I can think about a variety of things that I don't believe in. I can think of a variety of what if scenarios. I can think of what it might mean for God to not exist. But I can't believe that God doesn't exist. I can't say to myself hey man, believe God doesn't exist, in the same way I can't say hey man think of summer.

Has anyone here ever told you to stop believing?

I highly doubt it, but I know people have told you to start thinking instead of just preaching and parroting bullshit from other preachers.

(19-05-2016 07:27 AM)ClydeLee Wrote: Which is why the notion of believing having any value to any sway or notion of reward or disapproval is nonsensical on any front.

Strange how you seem to connect the notions of these questions one could have in an absolute or aggressively sidestepped way. So to you telling someone to doubt their own existence in your retelling of how its something you cant do its AVOID thinking you Do exist?

I didn't put in terms of thinking, but in terms of believing. I can think about a variety of things that I don't believe in. I can think of a variety of what if scenarios. I can think of what it might mean for God to not exist. But I can't believe that God doesn't exist. I can't say to myself hey man, believe God doesn't exist, in the same way I can't say hey man think of summer.

Yeah... that's what we all here seem to know. You should know it well as you know how other peoples minds work so much. That isn't how psychology works in anyway.

That's why when some modern folks like my friends brother bastardize pascals wager into just the notion of well you better off just believing makes no sense because you don't control your brain that easily.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson

Quote:"I was never discouraged from questioning as a child. When my parents took it as self-evident, it also meant that they took these beliefs for granted."

And you still don't understand what it means to have been indoctrinated.

You’re the one that claimed I was indoctrinated as a child. When pretty much all you know about my childhood is that my parents and community where believers, but were immigrants, from an entirely different culture setting than your own. And that I share a variety of religious beliefs with them. And that they didn’t discourage me from questioning.

Yet you seem to now be suggesting that these elements don’t necessarily mean indoctrination. So you must know some other details of my upbringing that I haven’t explicitly disclosed to you, to make your accusations of indoctrination hold as true.

And I would like to know what you think those elements are?

Can you tell that someone's indoctrinated based purely on what they believe? Or based on the factors that led them to hold those beliefs?

Quote:Demonstrate that the modern western world has more fears that cause parents to question things than:
1) the past western world
2) the modern eastern world
3) the past eastern world

You want me to demonstrate that different cultures, from different environments, different historical predicaments, often have different sets of fears as well? I never said the modern western world has more fears, than other parts of the world, that’s your straw man rendition of what I claimed. I doubt parents in Philadelphia are worried about mongooses eating their chickens, or their kids getting bit my rattlesnakes snakes on their way to school.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."

(19-05-2016 07:54 AM)Grasshopper Wrote: That's not quite the way it works. You don't have to "stop yourself from believing" in order to question your beliefs. That semantic question aside, the majority of present-day atheists have done exactly what you claim is impossible for you to do. They were raised as theists, questioned those beliefs at some point, and concluded that atheism makes more sense. There's no reason you couldn't do the same thing (although you might not reach the same conclusion).

You're right I can question my beliefs. I questioned my beliefs at many different points of my life, and concluded that theism makes more sense to me, than it's alternatives.
What am I saying has nothing to do with the ability to question my beliefs, or to contemplate doubts.

But the idea of stopping myself from believing. I don't believe it's matter of me contemplating any particular sets of questions. That all that would be required for me not to believe, is the ability to accurately contemplate a particular question, or a particular set of questions.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."

(19-05-2016 07:49 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote: And you still don't understand what it means to have been indoctrinated.

You’re the one that claimed I was indoctrinated as a child. When pretty much all you know about my childhood is that my parents and community where believers, but were immigrants, from an entirely different culture setting than your own. And that I share a variety of religious beliefs with them. And that they didn’t discourage me from questioning.

Yet you seem to now be suggesting that these elements don’t necessarily mean indoctrination. So you must know some other details of my upbringing that I haven’t explicitly disclosed to you, to make your accusations of indoctrination hold as true.

And I would like to know what you think those elements are?

Can you tell that someone's indoctrinated based purely on what they believe? Or based on the factors that led them to hold those beliefs?

Quote:Demonstrate that the modern western world has more fears that cause parents to question things than:
1) the past western world
2) the modern eastern world
3) the past eastern world

You want me to demonstrate that different cultures, from different environments, different historical predicaments, often have different sets of fears as well? I never said the modern western world has more fears, than other parts of the world, that’s your straw man rendition of what I claimed. I doubt parents in Philadelphia are worried about mongooses eating their chickens, or their kids getting bit my rattlesnakes snakes on their way to school.

"You’re the one that claimed I was indoctrinated as a child."

I'm just taking the shit you say, at face value:"I don't know how not to believe."

"When pretty much all you know about my childhood is that my parents and community where believers, but were immigrants, from an entirely different culture setting than your own. "

I didn't know that and don't give a shit. I used the words you wrote.

"And that I share a variety of religious beliefs with them."

But you've claimed in the past that the society and culture you grew up in, didn't shape your beliefs. Now you are admittedly full of shit because either a child was shaped by their culture and society, or you (as some sort of child prodigy) changed their's.

"And that they didn’t discourage me from questioning."

Sure, I believe that you are in the one chrisitian sect that openly takes on all challenges and questions about the existence of their god [/sarcasmfont]

"Yet you seem to now be suggesting that these elements don’t necessarily mean indoctrination. "

I've been very clear about what it means to be indoctrinated in my opinion, but your straw man of it is erroneous.

Your religion indoctrinated you. Your parents were either complacent or participatory. It doesn't matter, and I don't give a shit.

"So you must know some other details of my upbringing that I haven’t explicitly disclosed to you, to make your accusations of indoctrination hold as true.

And I would like to know what you think those elements are?"

I didn't make any claims about your upbringing or your parents or what you were like as a child. I pointed out the implications of what YOU said when YOU said that "you don't know how not to believe" and how YOU were raised in a society and family that already believed in the god YOU claimed was self-evident to YOU as a child.

The only person who has claimed to know more about someone else's life than that person, is you. When you've been asked to demonstrate where your clairvoyance comes from that allowed you to tell someone something about themselves that YOU knew but they somehow didn't, you've abandoned the thread like the dishonest little chickenshit you are.

"Can you tell that someone's indoctrinated based purely on what they believe? Or based on the factors that led them to hold those beliefs? "

Based on what the person in question admits about their indoctrination. Like you have.

"You want me to demonstrate that different cultures, from different environments, different historical predicaments, often have different sets of fears as well? "

red herring

"I never said the modern western world has more fears, than other parts of the world, that’s your straw man rendition of what I claimed. "

That is not what I said. Try again (you make a straw man trying to say I made a straw man)

"I doubt parents in Philadelphia are worried about mongooses eating their chickens, or their kids getting bit my rattlesnakes snakes on their way to school."

I doubt you know anything about living in Philadelphia. But even still, Philadelphia has its own set of fears for their kids.

And what about parents in Wyoming? They worry about rattlesnakes biting their kids on their way to school. Or coyotes getting the chickens.

You do know that the western world isn't all urban centers, right?

Here is (verbatim) what you said:"For them to discourage me from questioning, they'd have to have some fears, which for them didn't exist. Which does seem to exist for parents now, particularly in the western world."

Here is (verbatim) what I said:"Broad generalizations are useless. Especially those that artificially segregate populations of people. Demonstrate that the modern western world has more fears that cause parents to question things than:
1) the past western world
2) the modern eastern world
3) the past eastern world

(Drinking Beverage: I copy and pasted and it wrote out "Drinking Beverage" instead of making a This amuses me) we will wait (and since you are the one saying that it is the western world "now" that has these fears, you'll need to be the one to define when the "past" and "modern" versions of the eastern and western worlds is. Past (not "now" but "then") = pre-20th century? etc, etc, etc)"

Ergo, what fears does the western world of "now" have that cause parents to question (the context here is religious beliefs) more than:
1) the past western world
2) the modern eastern world
3) the past eastern world

Try and not trip over yourself making more red herrings and straw men as you try and back peddle away from the stupid claim you made.