[Discussion] Why Naruto is a broken main character/ where Sasuke's hate comes from

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Re: Why Naruto is a broken main character/ where Sasuke's hate comes from

Originally Posted by M3J

Where does the Kyuubi need to be mastered? After knowing about the Kyuubi all Naruto had to do was demand chakra from it. He didn't need to master Kyuubi at all, just like how Sasuke wouldn't necessarily need to master Sharingan. And despite all that, Sharingan doesn't save you though. Every time Naruto got Kyuubi's chakra, he was saved, every single time. Every time Sasuke got new powerup or after getting Sharingan, he was still in trouble and would have either lost or lost.

Wrong. It has to be mastered, that was the whole point of Jiraya's trainning, if not for that trainning Naruto wouldn't have beaten Neji nor would he have done so well against Sasuke or Gaara, the level of "control" Naruto had before (Haku and Oro's snake) and after is completely different, so he learned how to do it: he asked for the chakra and learned how to make good use of it. And you can't compare what's different, even if Naruto only had to ask, Kyuubi had to agree, and there was a risk here, every time Naruto used Kyuubi's chakra the seal weakened, Kyuubi wasn't give it "for free". While the Sharingan works automatically with no risk. Naruto being saved and Sasuke not is completely off topic man. As I said you can't compare Kyuubi with 1/2 tomoe Sharingan.

Originally Posted by M3J

No it didn't, considering Sasuke got three tomoes while they were talking. Plus, Sasuke didn't get any kind of injury that Sharingan healed. Naruto got a hole popped in him, and all he needed was Kyuubi's chakra for it to heal. That's way worse, considering Sharingan doesn't heal any injury.

What's the point of saying Sharingan doesn't heal? I know that. Sasuke got his 3 tomoe sharingan because he got angry with the conversation, about Naruto not knowing what it means to lose his parents because he didn't have them from the beggining, again emotion=power up. Sasuke with 2 tomoe Sharingan was getting beaten by Naruto using a bit of Kyuubi's chakra. So yes 3 tomoe came to the rescue to some extent.

Originally Posted by M3J

Sharingan didn't help Obito get out of the rockslide unscathed. If he had Kyuubi's chakra, he could have used it as a shield, and it would have blasted the rocks out of the way. And let's not forget that they still had to awaken it. Bijuu do not need to be awakened, they offer protection one way or another. Just ask Gaara - even his blind spot was protected so well that it required intense speed to get past it. How can you compare that kind of power to Sharingan?

If not for the sharingan Obito would be dead even before reaching the cave. And Kakashi as well by the way. Of course he had to awaken it, and it wasn't with trainning, it was because of the dramatic situation=mental state=emotion. Bijuu can offer "protection" but they also offer "danger" of being taken over, and even injuring the jin itself and decreasing their lifespan, remember what happened with Naruto after he went 4tails? Gaara automatic shield doesn't come from Shukaku, it comes from his mother.

Originally Posted by M3J

How did Sasuke pull a complete Susano'o out of his ass? Why say he did it, but not Itachi or Madara? Even with complete Susano'o, Sasuke still had problems.

It's irrelevant if it's Sasuke or not, that's not the point. I just gave an example to point how cheap MS became. You don't need to become protective of Sasuke for I'm not his hater. It's just a character. And it's also irrelevant to the point if Sasuke still had problems or not, the merit there goes to Danzou (a true ninja hehehe).

Originally Posted by M3J

No, a bijuu's power does not need to be mastered. Again, I refer you to part I, where Naruto was able to use Kyuubi's chakra unconsciously and when Gaara was protected automatically by sand even without knowing it. However, mastering its power does take the jinchuuriki's power further, as seen during the war, compared to Part I.

About Gaara I already answered. Also you contradicted yourself there. It does need to be mastered to be properly used. Of course the Bijuu will protect themselves and by extent their jin to a level, as they are sentient beings unlike the Sharingan lol. But again that's not the point. I just said earlier that both abilities are legitimate (both are ninja tools), and also cheap after a certain point, but cheap in their own specific ways.

Originally Posted by M3J

But has the Kyuubi ever taken over Naruto completely? CLosest it's come to doin that, Minato saved Naruto. Before that, he had Jiraiya, Yamato, and Kakashi help him. Even Gaara was only at risk when he slept. And so far, we've only seen that happen to Bee's predecessors.

Again this is quite irrelevant to the point I made. What does it matter that Kyuubi never completely took over Naruto? Or that he had guys protecting him? What I said is that the risk exists, and had already made victims, and as I said Sharingan=no risks. About Gaara, he is a specific case, because Shukaku could only take temporarily over when it's jin is sleeping (part 1), maybe only if he takes over for long enough it becomes permanent. But Shukaku from what we saw so far never took over for too long. Against Naruto, Naruto was pretty fast to wake Gaara up, and during Gaara's dad flashback, it also looked like he took care of business pretty fast. But here I'm not sure if it's consistent because we don't know if Gaara used the sleeping jutsu or was simply taken over by rage and let Shukaku loose. If so then I don't know how Gaara went back to normal. Might be another mistake from Kishi, or just something he didn't bother to explain.

Re: Why Naruto is a broken main character/ where Sasuke's hate comes from

Originally Posted by Daniel

Wrong. It has to be mastered, that was the whole point of Jiraya's trainning, if not for that trainning Naruto wouldn't have beaten Neji nor would he have done so well against Sasuke or Gaara, the level of "control" Naruto had before (Haku and Oro's snake) and after is completely different, so he learned how to do it: he asked for the chakra and learned how to make good use of it. And you can't compare what's different, even if Naruto only had to ask, Kyuubi had to agree, and there was a risk here, every time Naruto used Kyuubi's chakra the seal weakened, Kyuubi wasn't give it "for free". While the Sharingan works automatically with no risk. Naruto being saved and Sasuke not is completely off topic man. As I said you can't compare Kyuubi with 1/2 tomoe Sharingan.

It had to be mastered for MORE power, otherwise Naruto was doing fine without even knowing about the chakra. Naruto never trained to ask for Kyuubi's chakra, Jiraiya just told him about the Kyuubi and dropped him. Naruto just had to say "hey Kyuubi, the rent for staying in my body is your chakra!" The only use he made was moving faster and using strength.

Of course Kyuubi would agree. It didn't want to die or lose. There was no risk, considering Naruto was still himself and was in no danger from the Kyuubi until Part II. Even then he had people protecting him, like Jiraiya, Yamato, Kakashi, and Minato. It was and is still free.

Sharingan isn't automatic, and while there's no risk, it depends on the user's ability. Sasuke even with Sharingan was no match for Lee. Even with Mangekyo, he could barely take on Raikage and Bee. Kyuubi is still more haxxed and powerful than three tomoe Sharingan.

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What's the point of saying Sharingan doesn't heal? I know that. Sasuke got his 3 tomoe sharingan because he got angry with the conversation, about Naruto not knowing what it means to lose his parents because he didn't have them from the beggining, again emotion=power up. Sasuke with 2 tomoe Sharingan was getting beaten by Naruto using a bit of Kyuubi's chakra. So yes 3 tomoe came to the rescue to some extent.

He never got angry with the conversation. When Sasuke got the third tomoe, he was putting on his headband and acknowledged Naruto as his equal. Maybe it was an emotional powerup, but it wouldn't make Sasuke superior. It's not like Naruto didn't have a powerup either, and that was only because he was outmatched at the time (not going all out against Sasuke and allowing Sasuke to pierce him with chidori).

The point is that Sharingan < Kyuubi in terms of haxxness and power. And while three tomoe Sharingan saved Sasuke, the Kyuubi chakra also saved Naruto.

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If not for the sharingan Obito would be dead even before reaching the cave. And Kakashi as well by the way. Of course he had to awaken it, and it wasn't with trainning, it was because of the dramatic situation=mental state=emotion. Bijuu can offer "protection" but they also offer "danger" of being taken over, and even injuring the jin itself and decreasing their lifespan, remember what happened with Naruto after he went 4tails? Gaara automatic shield doesn't come from Shukaku, it comes from his mother.

If not for the surprise factor, then Obito wouldn't have survived either. It wasn't just the Sharingan that allowed him to kill the nin, but the fact that the nin didn't expect him to get Sharingan. If he was in an actual fight, like with Kakashi against that shinobi that was with Rin, Obito wouldn't have had an easy win.

What danger? There was no danger until Part II, in which we learned that Jiraiya tweaked the seal a bit, and it was Naruto who accepted Kyuubi's chakra and will, according to what he told the toads before accepting the seal to the Kyuubi. The only time we saw jinchuuriki be completely taken over and die was when we learned about Bee's predecessors.

But Naruto being an Uzumaki will likely ensure his life won't get cut short. IN fact, he's the only one who's been damaged by the chakra like this. Kushina had the Kyuubi ripped out of her, but she was the only one who survived the extraction. Naruto will likely live for a long time.

What? how does it come from his mother when she's dead? I don't even remember the automatic defense coming into play after Gaara had the Ichibi extracted from him. Unless the flashback did say that Gaara's mom did something with Ichibi or the seal that allowed automatic defense.

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It's irrelevant if it's Sasuke or not, that's not the point. I just gave an example to point how cheap MS became. You don't need to become protective of Sasuke for I'm not his hater. It's just a character. And it's also irrelevant to the point if Sasuke still had problems or not, the merit there goes to Danzou (a true ninja hehehe).

I'm not protective of Sasuke, I'm protective of equality. I've defended both Naruto and Sasuke. But it's Sasuke who's spammed MS the most. The only time we saw ITachi use Susano'o while alive was against Sasuke, and apparently only to seal Orochimaru.

But yeah, MS has become pretty cheap. Still hate how Sasuke acquired Mangekyo or at least, Susano'o. Would have been so much cooler to see Naruto vs. Sasuke where strategy was everything.

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About Gaara I already answered. Also you contradicted yourself there. It does need to be mastered to be properly used. Of course the Bijuu will protect themselves and by extent their jin to a level, as they are sentient beings unlike the Sharingan lol. But again that's not the point. I just said earlier that both abilities are legitimate (both are ninja tools), and also cheap after a certain point, but cheap in their own specific ways.

By extent? We wouldn't have even known the Kyuubi wanted to break out if it wasn't revealed in Part II, considering how both the Kyuubi and Ichibi protected their host, whether they wanted it or not. Naruto or Gaara didn't need to master the bijuu to properly use it, otherwise Naruto wouldn't have been able to use Kyuubi's chakra at all, or Gaara wouldn't have been able to go into bijuu mode.

I won't ever consider the bijuu as abilities, no matter who it is.

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Again this is quite irrelevant to the point I made. What does it matter that Kyuubi never completely took over Naruto? Or that he had guys protecting him? What I said is that the risk exists, and had already made victims, and as I said Sharingan=no risks. About Gaara, he is a specific case, because Shukaku could only take temporarily over when it's jin is sleeping (part 1), maybe only if he takes over for long enough it becomes permanent. But Shukaku from what we saw so far never took over for too long. Against Naruto, Naruto was pretty fast to wake Gaara up, and during Gaara's dad flashback, it also looked like he took care of business pretty fast. But here I'm not sure if it's consistent because we don't know if Gaara used the sleeping jutsu or was simply taken over by rage and let Shukaku loose. If so then I don't know how Gaara went back to normal. Might be another mistake from Kishi, or just something he didn't bother to explain.

Because it takes away the risks. Hell, Kyuubi never even tried to take over Naruto until way later, after JIraiya tweaked the seal.

Sharingan has no risk, but it's still dependent on its user's ability. Sharingan won't help you against a fast ninja if your body can't react. Kyuubi's chakra can help you because it'll boost your speed a lot. You can compare both Sharingan/Mangekyo Sharingan and Kyuubi, but Kyuubi will always be the cheaper, more free powerup, although both are cheap.

Re: Why Naruto is a broken main character/ where Sasuke's hate comes from

Originally Posted by Delbi

Yes I would agree. Both are skilled ninja's, and both have power ups that are haxed to the 10th power. But, both also have natural talent and use hard work to make themselves better. Take the Sharigan completely away from Sasuke, and the Kyuubi and Sage Mode completely away from Naruto and you have two Jounin level ninja who could likely get stronger with age.

My only gripe with anything is this: Naruto isn't a genius, and was never labeled a genius. Is he talented? Without a doubt. But his talent doesn't explain many of his hood leap and bounds in terms of learning and mastering abilities, or the fact he created Rasengan varients from nothing. Sage Mode and his ability to use the Kyuubi's chakra seemed rushed for someone who needed years of training (with Kage Bushin) to create FRS. Not to mention with Sage Mode, his master couldn't master it in what must have been 20 years, and yet he mastered it in what seemed like a week. And at that point, Jiraiya was more skilled than Naruto in every way possible.

Sasuke's big gains with MS can at least be chalked up to him being a genius and having a natural affinity with ninjutsu. With Naruto's there is less of an explanation.

I pretty much agree with everything.
On the Sage Mode thing, it was not only enhanced by the KB training but, if I remember correctly, was that much of a success because Naruto kept trying and trying and trying.
His drive was imo 100x stronger than the drive Jiraiya had when he started learning it, and that made all the difference. And of course Naruto looking like a toad wouldn't have been popular

Originally Posted by Delbi

Are we talking about regular Sharigan or MS? The regular Sharigan is a natural born ability he has. Taking that away from him would be like taking away Naruto's naturally large chakra pool.

Point was that Sharingan-less Sasuke could take Akatsukis.
Even 3 tomoe Sasuke without CS and Oro's abilities imo would be unable to win against most of them

how are they not different they each do different things, and sasuje has dragon fire jutsu and shidori nagashi as defensive moves and the phoenix fire which is like homing missles. sasuke has different variants its more than a straight forward in your face, they can be applied to mutiple settings and its how theyre used which makes them different

They all are the same thing, a sword clad in lightning ( Chidori itself is compared to a "unblockable sword" by Gai ), all it changes is the reach, same with Katons.
Ironically the same difference there is with Rasengan, Oodama Rasengan and Chou Oodama Rasengan

Re: Why Naruto is a broken main character/ where Sasuke's hate comes from

Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood

They all are the same thing, a sword clad in lightning ( Chidori itself is compared to a "unblockable sword" by Gai ), all it changes is the reach, same with Katons.
Ironically the same difference there is with Rasengan, Oodama Rasengan and Chou Oodama Rasengan

All these moves are very distinct and not interchangeable. Only senbon can knock down multiple objects at a distance. Only the spear can cut through a large object like Bee's tentacle at a distance. Only nagashi can defend yourself from an incoming attack. If you think all these justsus are the same except for the reach, then you might as well tell me all raiton jutsus are the same except for the reach.

Rasengan = spinning ball of chakra you slam into the target
Oodama Rasengan = a bigger spinning ball of chakra you slam into the target
Chou Oodama Rasengan = an even bigger spinning ball of chakra you slam into the target

If power isn't a factor, all 3 jutsus are absolutely the same and is interchangeable.

Lets be fucking honest here or there is no point in even having a discussion.

Re: Why Naruto is a broken main character/ where Sasuke's hate comes from

@Chilibun

Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood

Do tell me the difference between Chidori, Chidori Sword, Chidori Spear and the Kusanagi clad in Chidori.
All are close-range Chidori variations.
Same with Gokyakuu, Goryakuu and Hosenka, all three are long-ranged Katons with different power. Not different at all from Naruto's Rasengan spammage.

Re: Why Naruto is a broken main character/ where Sasuke's hate comes from

Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood

@Chilibun

Yes, except those aren't his only chidori variants... Even the Katon ones are different as they aren't even variants. Completely different jutsu. Are you going to tell me all Katons are the same because they are long range fire attacks?

Housenka is also very unique in that it hides shurikens in the fire to surprise the attacker.

Re: Why Naruto is a broken main character/ where Sasuke's hate comes from

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Training for RK mode required him to do several things that could have killed him/made him lose himself. Firstly, confronting the Kyuubi and unlocking the seal could have meant death for him and everyone around him.

yeah the fox fight wasnt bad ill admit but theres a problem ive always had with it

in these pages it says naruto could only make 5 clones in sage mode so how come he has 1000 sage mode clones fighting kyuubi? i found this a while ago so i havent really considered it a proper naruto victory due to the size of the plot hole

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In case you forgot, Naruto ran the risk of turning into a Stone Frog while training to be Sage. At one point he even jumped into the giant pool of oil much to Pa's horror which could have easily turned him into stone and killed him.

that was so unnecessary, thats like me training for the military and jumping in iraq unprepared. its sink or swim at that point and he put his own life in danger. he couldve earned it by sitting down jumping in the pool was stupid and reckless

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Also, Jiraiya did not start training as a Sage at 14, I'm not sure where you got that idea from. In fact, he didn't even meet the Great Sage until sometime into his 20's if not early 30's.

what i meant was that he went to the mountain and started training for the title of sage when he was like 14 according to the flashback when he summoned himself to the mountain(i dunno if the manga considers the canon) naurot went there for like 3 weeks just learned sage mode and frog fu and poof hes a sage when jiraya worked almost his whole life for that title

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And comparing Naruto and Asuma in terms of overall skills is difficult, but they are certainly the same level of fighter all around in their base levels. Naruto has proven this with his great speed, ability to grab swords with his bare hands, and his overall taijutsu and weapon usage.

i wouldnt really be sure about that, i forgot to post about asuma being a part of the 12 ninja guardians. he used to protect feudal lords which is why i think hes leauges above naruto. he may be in like base strength but i dont think overall strength and we never saw the full extent of asumas taijutsu but judging from the size of his giant freak laser knuckles id say he was probably better, just due to age and experience hed probably beat naruto he cant be that much stronger in terms of physical strength but he'd still drown him in overall abilities

On the topic of Sasukes sharingan being cheap. Why? I understand it would be cheap handing down powers from others or taking them like Madara is doing from Hashirama but Sasukes Sharingan, hell even the MS is abilities he has within him, he was born with them. Why not remove Shikamarus ability to manipulate shadows, or Choujis energy conversion and so on and so forth. I don't see it as cheap at all.

Chouji and Shikamaru's techniques aren't Kekkai Genkai though. People often complain about Sasuke's abilities but fail to realize if he wasn't a genius he'd never be able to use them like he does if at all. [/QUOTE]

this is one of the major arguments i have about naruto vs sasuke, people complain about sasuke and say his sharigan is hax but naruto also has 3 times the regular chakra of kage level nin like kakashi lol he can create 1000 clones and still fight pretty decently that seems op more op than a sharigan to me as his chakra is supposed to be distributed evenly

All these moves are very distinct and not interchangeable. Only senbon can knock down multiple objects at a distance. Only the spear can cut through a large object like Bee's tentacle at a distance. Only nagashi can defend yourself from an incoming attack. If you think all these justsus are the same except for the reach, then you might as well tell me all raiton jutsus are the same except for the reach.

Rasengan = spinning ball of chakra you slam into the target
Oodama Rasengan = a bigger spinning ball of chakra you slam into the target
Chou Oodama Rasengan = an even bigger spinning ball of chakra you slam into the target

If power isn't a factor, all 3 jutsus are absolutely the same and is interchangeable.

Lets be fucking honest here or there is no point in even having a discussion

Yes, except those aren't his only chidori variants... Even the Katon ones are different as they aren't even variants. Completely different jutsu. Are you going to tell me all Katons are the same because they are long range fire attacks?

i see you beat me to the punch XP just cause they are in the same element doesnt mean theyre the same. the rasengan is always gonna be a ball coming in your face, atleast sasuske moves are different and can be applied to different situation where naruto always needs to run in in your face and spam it hoping for a hit

the thing is with naruto he always has to jump to sage or kyuubi mode right away, at least sasuke tries shit before he uses his trump cards

IMHO i think sage mode was unnecessary for naruto, it shouldve stayed exclusive to jiraya. naruto shouldve fought the kyuubi and unlocked the first fox chakra before pain and then when fighting obito they became friends with kurama cause naruto can use sage and kyuubi chakra simultaneously and if you ask me thats more op than any sharigan ability sasuke has and like its kinda pointless. its like what happened to kaio-ken in dbz, as soon as goku got ss it was useless. naruto got fox mode which is sage mode x15 so whats the point of him having it? if it was just jirayas it wouldve been sick and made him look like the ultimate sage of toads cause him having some frog details was cool, it seemed perfect to me imo and it wouldnt have made his 30+ work overshadowed by a boy in like 3 weeks...

Re: Why Naruto is a broken main character/ where Sasuke's hate comes from

Originally Posted by chilibun

Yes, except those aren't his only chidori variants... Even the Katon ones are different as they aren't even variants. Completely different jutsu. Are you going to tell me all Katons are the same because they are long range fire attacks?

Housenka is also very unique in that it hides shurikens in the fire to surprise the attacker.

You have 4 identical jutsu with only different reach, and then you have Nagashi ( which I can say without a problem is pretty versatile and useful ) and Senbon ( which is the lolest jutsu ever whenever a discussion is about Sasuke ).
Just like, for Naruto, you have 284759 identical Rasengans with different reach, Kage Bushin and FRS ( which can be used both as a slicing blade like he did in recent chaps for example, and as his throwable version ).

As for Katons, if they do the same thing with only different aspect you can expect me to say that they are the same
Gokyakuu is a medium-sized ball of fire, Goryakuu is a big-sized ball of fire, Hosenka are small-sized balls of fire.

Originally Posted by Kid Chameleone

the thing is with naruto he always has to jump to sage or kyuubi mode right away, at least sasuke tries shit before he uses his trump cards

Like he did against Kabuto, right?
Using an Enton sword + Amaterasu ( instead of, say, his katana empowered with Chidori ) to cut a web 13 year old Neji could cut with a tiny blade of chakra.

Originally Posted by Kid Chameleone

IMHO i think sage mode was unnecessary for naruto, it shouldve stayed exclusive to jiraya. naruto shouldve fought the kyuubi and unlocked the first fox chakra before pain and then when fighting obito they became friends with kurama cause naruto can use sage and kyuubi chakra simultaneously and if you ask me thats more op than any sharigan ability sasuke has and like its kinda pointless. its like what happened to kaio-ken in dbz, as soon as goku got ss it was useless. naruto got fox mode which is sage mode x15 so whats the point of him having it? if it was just jirayas it wouldve been sick and made him look like the ultimate sage of toads cause him having some frog details was cool, it seemed perfect to me imo and it wouldnt have made his 30+ work overshadowed by a boy in like 3 weeks...

Just saying, Naruto still uses Sage Mode despite having Bijuu Mode, so no, its nothing like DB.
And how could he beat the Kyuubi to the ground without Sage Mode? Then we would have a thread like this one saying Naruto beating Kyuubi ( the strongest Bijuu ) is retarded because Naruto is broken and Sasuke is hated

Don't worry, Sasuke will get his yearly dose of hax soon enough, he's on his way to master the power of his scroll after all

Re: Why Naruto is a broken main character/ where Sasuke's hate comes from

Originally Posted by Kid Chameleone

again kabuto uses ninja dna fankenstein powers so they were probably enhanced webs

That web is a jutsu, it isn't pre-stored.
While it was surely enhanced by Sage chakra, the end result wasn't that different to justify using a S+ rank jutsu while Neji used a tiny chakra blade. Hell Kimimaro's bone forest thing was smaller than what he used when he was alive

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like bee, base skills

And yet you complain about Naruto being broken.
Naruto is a power up whore because said power ups would make Naruto even more invincible than he already is if his Base mode would be above Kage level.
Imagine base Naruto being stronger than Kyuubi. Add to it Sage Mode and Bijuu Mode.

Then keep in mind that Sasuke would need to match him in power. The latter is already pretty unbelievable as it is ( considering how much hyped Bijuu mode is and its feats ), do we really need to add GodlikeBaseNaruto?

Both of them are 16, solid Jounin level as it is without their hax, they have all the time to become above Kage level ( without considering the fact that both can end Kages like Tsunade or Mei even in base, but whatever ) on their own.
If they survive, that is

All these moves are very distinct and not interchangeable. Only senbon can knock down multiple objects at a distance. Only the spear can cut through a large object like Bee's tentacle at a distance. Only nagashi can defend yourself from an incoming attack. If you think all these justsus are the same except for the reach, then you might as well tell me all raiton jutsus are the same except for the reach.

Rasengan = spinning ball of chakra you slam into the target
Oodama Rasengan = a bigger spinning ball of chakra you slam into the target
Chou Oodama Rasengan = an even bigger spinning ball of chakra you slam into the target

If power isn't a factor, all 3 jutsus are absolutely the same and is interchangeable.

Lets be fucking honest here or there is no point in even having a discussion.

So? They're almost the same right? Sasuke derived that jutsu to his chidori. So they're still chidori in different style/reach. That's why there's the word ''chidori'' to that jutsu's names. Chidori, chidori senbon, chidori spear, chidori nagashi. Because all of that jutsus came/derived from chidori.

That's freaking obvious. That's the same as naruto's rasengan, oodama rasengan, Chou oodama rasengan, planetary rasengan, vacuum rasengan, six style rasengan and frs. All of this jutsus derived from rasengan. So they're the same jutsu with different style/reach/power.

in these pages it says naruto could only make 5 clones in sage mode so how come he has 1000 sage mode clones fighting kyuubi? i found this a while ago so i havent really considered it a proper naruto victory due to the size of the plot hole

that was so unnecessary, thats like me training for the military and jumping in iraq unprepared. its sink or swim at that point and he put his own life in danger. he couldve earned it by sitting down jumping in the pool was stupid and reckless

what i meant was that he went to the mountain and started training for the title of sage when he was like 14 according to the flashback when he summoned himself to the mountain(i dunno if the manga considers the canon) naurot went there for like 3 weeks just learned sage mode and frog fu and poof hes a sage when jiraya worked almost his whole life for that title

i wouldnt really be sure about that, i forgot to post about asuma being a part of the 12 ninja guardians. he used to protect feudal lords which is why i think hes leauges above naruto. he may be in like base strength but i dont think overall strength and we never saw the full extent of asumas taijutsu but judging from the size of his giant freak laser knuckles id say he was probably better, just due to age and experience hed probably beat naruto he cant be that much stronger in terms of physical strength but he'd still drown him in overall abilities

On the topic of Sasukes sharingan being cheap. Why? I understand it would be cheap handing down powers from others or taking them like Madara is doing from Hashirama but Sasukes Sharingan, hell even the MS is abilities he has within him, he was born with them. Why not remove Shikamarus ability to manipulate shadows, or Choujis energy conversion and so on and so forth. I don't see it as cheap at all.

Chouji and Shikamaru's techniques aren't Kekkai Genkai though. People often complain about Sasuke's abilities but fail to realize if he wasn't a genius he'd never be able to use them like he does if at all.

this is one of the major arguments i have about naruto vs sasuke, people complain about sasuke and say his sharigan is hax but naruto also has 3 times the regular chakra of kage level nin like kakashi lol he can create 1000 clones and still fight pretty decently that seems op more op than a sharigan to me as his chakra is supposed to be distributed evenly

i see you beat me to the punch XP just cause they are in the same element doesnt mean theyre the same. the rasengan is always gonna be a ball coming in your face, atleast sasuske moves are different and can be applied to different situation where naruto always needs to run in in your face and spam it hoping for a hit

the thing is with naruto he always has to jump to sage or kyuubi mode right away, at least sasuke tries shit before he uses his trump cards

IMHO i think sage mode was unnecessary for naruto, it shouldve stayed exclusive to jiraya. naruto shouldve fought the kyuubi and unlocked the first fox chakra before pain and then when fighting obito they became friends with kurama cause naruto can use sage and kyuubi chakra simultaneously and if you ask me thats more op than any sharigan ability sasuke has and like its kinda pointless. its like what happened to kaio-ken in dbz, as soon as goku got ss it was useless. naruto got fox mode which is sage mode x15 so whats the point of him having it? if it was just jirayas it wouldve been sick and made him look like the ultimate sage of toads cause him having some frog details was cool, it seemed perfect to me imo and it wouldnt have made his 30+ work overshadowed by a boy in like 3 weeks...[/QUOTE]

Just re-read your scans. Naruto could only used 2 clones because if he creates more than that, the clones at the frog village who gather senjutsu chakra would be distracted. You know what that means? Naruto is just limited to 2 clones because the other 3 are freaking busy gathering the senjutsu chakra. What happened in his fight with kurama, he don't have any clones in frog village who gather a senjutsu chakra. So that's freaking obvious that the limitation of clones isn't applicable to naruto at that time.

So you think the sage mode is unnecessary to naruto? Well, naruto needs that to stop pain. And what do you mean about it's more op to sasuke's sharingans ability? Are you serious about that? Just look on sasuke's Ms power, it's more op than naruto's sage mode. Susanoo, amaterasu and genjutsu are freaking dangerous and super hax than the sage mode.

Maybe naruto is an idiot but if you gonna ask pa frog and kurama, naruto is one of a hell skilled ninja.

Naruto learned the sage mode because he's more skilled than jiraiya in that training.
Naruto learned to mold/change kurama's chakra because he become more skilled in that ability.

While sasuke

Sasuke is talentless to aweken his MS. Itachi even needs to sacrificed his life just because of that.

You're just bashing naruto's fighting style. Yeah, sasuke's fighting style is more awesome than naruto. Sasuke's jutsus are awesome than naruto's rasengan. Are you happy now?

Re: Why Naruto is a broken main character/ where Sasuke's hate comes from

Originally Posted by Delbi

Depending the situations, without any form of the Sharigan Sasuke wouldn't be able to defeat anyone outside of Hidan, and possibly Deidara.

However, if given the Normal Sharigan, I see no reason why he couldn't beat Hidan, Zetsu, Sasori, Deidara, and possibly Konan. He's fast enough and could predict everything Sasori showed him.

His ability to fly on his Hawk, and see through Deidara's techniques would mean he'd win that fight again, and his chakra supply is actually larger without the cursed seal.

Zetsu proved to fodder, so no surprise there really.

Konan is a wild card to me because IMO, he abilities are unimpressive unless she has prep time. And her aerial abilities would be countered by Sasuke's Hawk.

I completely forgot about Zetsu, yeah Sasuke would destroy him

I don't agree on Deidara, the guy showed to be able to fight his best in the air and C0 is unavoidable, expecially since Sasuke now lacks Boss-sized summons to shield himself with.

I strongly disagree on Sasori, who is incredibly underestimated imo:
the guy needs one scratch and its done. Over. Also the range of his attacks is massive, and you need to be able to read his fingertips to predict the movements of his puppets, and Sharingan would allow Sasuke only to predict how he moves his fingers, not what they do.
Shikamaru needed a good bit of time to read Tayuya's movements, I expect Sasuke to need a bit more time, in which he would need to completely and fully dodge everything.
Without prior knowledge, I can see him defeated 9 times out of 10.

Konan as you said its a wild card, even though I think Sasuke would have an easy time thanks to Katons that would detonate whatever paperbomb Konan uses with her paper jutsu.

So basically Hidan ( only if he has prior knowledge though, without knowledge Hidan is near-invincible ), Konan and Zetsu, with the doubt of Deidara.
Still nowhere near "ohmygoddathotSauceisGodlike" me thinks

in these pages it says naruto could only make 5 clones in sage mode so how come he has 1000 sage mode clones fighting kyuubi? i found this a while ago so i havent really considered it a proper naruto victory due to the size of the plot hole

I don't disagree, but a possible explanation is that since it was happening in his mind normal rules don't apply, who knows.

Originally Posted by Kid Chameleone

that was so unnecessary, thats like me training for the military and jumping in iraq unprepared. its sink or swim at that point and he put his own life in danger. he couldve earned it by sitting down jumping in the pool was stupid and reckless

Naruto had time constraints, and whether you like it or not there were risks involved even despite him jumping in the pool of oil, hence why only he and Jiraiya are the only ninja to ever become Toad Sages to our knowledge, everyone else died trying.

Originally Posted by Kid Chameleone

what i meant was that he went to the mountain and started training for the title of sage when he was like 14 according to the flashback when he summoned himself to the mountain(i dunno if the manga considers the canon) naurot went there for like 3 weeks just learned sage mode and frog fu and poof hes a sage when jiraya worked almost his whole life for that title

Jiraiya never went there at 14, I don't know where the hell you are getting that from because it was never in the manga. Again, Jiraiya went there when he was Kakashi's age or so it seems from how he looked.

And is it bullshit? Of course it is, but the manga demanded it. Just like how Naruto could create FRS yet his genius of all geniuses father could not.

Originally Posted by Kid Chameleone

i wouldnt really be sure about that, i forgot to post about asuma being a part of the 12 ninja guardians. he used to protect feudal lords which is why i think hes leauges above naruto. he may be in like base strength but i dont think overall strength and we never saw the full extent of asumas taijutsu but judging from the size of his giant freak laser knuckles id say he was probably better, just due to age and experience hed probably beat naruto he cant be that much stronger in terms of physical strength but he'd still drown him in overall abilities

What evidence do you have for this?

In case you forgot, Asuma got his ass owned by Hidan, as did another of the 12 Guardians. They aren't shit to be quite honest.

And while I hate to use the databook because not only has it proven to be inaccuarate against the source material of the manga, but it is also out dated.

That aside, just keep this in mind.

According to the Databook, at the time of his death Asuma had a total rating of 32.5. Naruto had a total rating of 26.

Asuma had the overwhelming advantage. But keep this in mind. Asuma had a rating of 3.5 in both handseals and genjutsu. He doesn't use genjutsu, it isn't part of his fight style. He uses ranged ninjutsu and close quarters combats with his chakra enhanced trench knives.

So, if we were to remove both the stats, because they are pretty much irrelevant for this fight, Asuma's stats at the time of death are 25.5.

Naruto's handseal and genjutsu stats are 1.5 and 2 respectively. He doesn't use genjutsu, and neither does Asuma so the genjutsu stat is irrelevant. And he barely uses handseals so that stat is irrelevant too.

Naruto's total minus those two would then be 22.5, only 3 points lower than Asuma's.

Problem now is, Naruto has gotten larger, stronger,and faster, and has become a better all around ninja without Sage Mode and RK mode. I refuse to believe that Asuma is better than him at anything aside from the two aforementioned stats I removed (which are irrelevant for the purposes of comparing them) and physical strength.

And just one thing to keep in mind. What is Asuma supposed to do if Naruto summons Ma and Pa or Bunta? Or would you like to take his ability to summon away as well?

Originally Posted by Kid Chameleone

this is one of the major arguments i have about naruto vs sasuke, people complain about sasuke and say his sharigan is hax but naruto also has 3 times the regular chakra of kage level nin like kakashi lol he can create 1000 clones and still fight pretty decently that seems op more op than a sharigan to me as his chakra is supposed to be distributed evenly

Naruto massive chakra supply and the Sharigan more or less cancel each other out. But in all honesty, the Sharigan has the advantage.

It has precognition abilities, genjutsu breaking, and casting abilities, the ability to see chakra, and the ability to copy techniques.

Naruto just has a lot of chakra and with that chakra he performs a total of two techniques. IMO, if you watched old fights, Sasuke would slaughter all of Naruto's clones no problem. So the point is moot.

Originally Posted by Kid Chameleone

the thing is with naruto he always has to jump to sage or kyuubi mode right away, at least sasuke tries shit before he uses his trump cards

Sasuke has been in a total of two battles thus far since gaining MS where he hasn't immediately jumped to using it.

1) Vs. Bee, as this was his first battle even having it. He got himself killed twice because he didn't use it.

2) Vs. Raikage. He needed it to survive.

Your bias is about as bright as the Sun right now IMO. Both Naruto and Sasuke need to use there trump cards early because they are two 17-18 year olds fighting the strongest Shinobi in existence. Why would you wait to use a power when it can help you win and save your life . That has to be the stupidest thing I have ever heard.

And in Naruto's case, Sage Mode doesn't cost him anything to use, it just takes time to gather Natural Energy for it. That's like asking Sasuke not to activate his Sharigan until the fight is half over.

I don't agree on Deidara, the guy showed to be able to fight his best in the air and C0 is unavoidable, expecially since Sasuke now lacks Boss-sized summons to shield himself with.

I strongly disagree on Sasori, who is incredibly underestimated imo:
the guy needs one scratch and its done. Over. Also the range of his attacks is massive, and you need to be able to read his fingertips to predict the movements of his puppets, and Sharingan would allow Sasuke only to predict how he moves his fingers, not what they do.
Shikamaru needed a good bit of time to read Tayuya's movements, I expect Sasuke to need a bit more time, in which he would need to completely and fully dodge everything.
Without prior knowledge, I can see him defeated 9 times out of 10.

Konan as you said its a wild card, even though I think Sasuke would have an easy time thanks to Katons that would detonate whatever paperbomb Konan uses with her paper jutsu.

So basically Hidan ( only if he has prior knowledge though, without knowledge Hidan is near-invincible ), Konan and Zetsu, with the doubt of Deidara.
Still nowhere near "ohmygoddathotSauceisGodlike" me thinks

Killing Deidara before he can activate jutsu is an option. And while he's great in the air, I would like to think Sasuke's Hawk is too. Not to mention Sasuke has elemental advantage. IMO, Sasuke now is better in every way that his CS self with just his plain Sharigan minus the snakes. He's bigger, stronger, has a larger chakra pool and has more experience.

Comparing Sasuke and Shikamaru's skills aside from their intelligence is laughable as Sasuke out classes him every way possible.

Saying that, Sakura and Chiyo did a hell of a job avoiding Sasori's attacks, and Sasuke for what it's worth is much much faster and has the Sharigan to help him dodge. Not to mention, Chidori Nagashi could like damage the puppets and electrify back to Sasori injuring him.

"The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

Re: Why Naruto is a broken main character/ where Sasuke's hate comes from

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And yet you complain about Naruto being broken.
Naruto is a power up whore because said power ups would make Naruto even more invincible than he already is if his Base mode would be above Kage level.
Imagine base Naruto being stronger than Kyuubi. Add to it Sage Mode and Bijuu Mode.

Then keep in mind that Sasuke would need to match him in power. The latter is already pretty unbelievable as it is ( considering how much hyped Bijuu mode is and its feats ), do we really need to add GodlikeBaseNaruto?

Both of them are 16, solid Jounin level as it is without their hax, they have all the time to become above Kage level ( without considering the fact that both can end Kages like Tsunade or Mei even in base, but whatever ) on their own.
If they survive, that is

dude naruto is broken cause he has no base skills to fall back on and i know sasuke and naurto are 16 but sasuke fought deidara and he did manage to beat tsukyomi with a base sharigan while naruto hasnt fought one akatsuki memeber without power ups. he has 3 times the regular chakra of nin that should be sufficient enough

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Sasuke is talentless to aweken his MS. Itachi even needs to sacrificed his life just because of that.

hmm lemme see..
he dcided not to kill naruto at the valley of the end
oro stopped him from murking him when they ran into each other in the hideout

sasuke has had his chance but plot protection, if he really wanted to kill naruto he couldve donw it many times but as someone posted earlier he only wanted to kill itachi and left innocent nin out of it so thats a pointless argument. we all knew he was gonna get ms eventually and naruto got saved by kusinha so by ur standards naruto is also talentless to obtain fox mode

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You're just bashing naruto's fighting style. Yeah, sasuke's fighting style is more awesome than naruto. Sasuke's jutsus are awesome than naruto's rasengan. Are you happy now?

Your sasuke is more awesome than naruto. Kudos to you pal.

dude why are you getting so defensive, im saying sasukes jutsus look better but i also said naruto has the capabilities to do everything sasuke is i just dont get why he always has to rush to rasengan. he has like unlimited potential and could be just as good better than sasuke if he explored his wind element and his heritage

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yeah like naruto potential is limitless. even without the kyuubi or sage mode he'd still be a power house with his natural abilities if he worked on them. if he used his clones, maybe learned some wind jutsu and 1 or 2 uzumaki sealing jutsu he'd be almost unstoppable, he'd he constant distractions from his clones and the wind jutsu and while the clones are attacking he can have like 5 in a pentagon around the enemy sealing their movements THEN he finishes with the rasengan. thats what i was expecting in the story cause it was shown in a way that we should expect it in the future not to mention in one of the interviews when kishi said naruto had a blood line which gave the impression he may use it in battle.

this is from one of my earlier posts. as you can see ive stated over and over that naruto could be just as boss as any other nin but he doesnt explore it he just shoots straight to his power up. so please dont put words in my mouth i wanna see more naruto and less power ups if you can see where im coming from. he has the abilities at his disposal so why rely on sage and kyuubi so much?

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In case you forgot, Asuma got his ass owned by Hidan, as did another of the 12 Guardians. They aren't shit to be quite honest.

man hidan is the grim reaper lol anyone wouldve died not knowing his powers. if he cuts you its over. in a regular nin fight they get bloody all the time so its not fair to say that, any nin who fights before knowing hidans power has a huge chance of dying. they were able to counter and beat him once they learned what it was and asuma only died cause he went back into circle, once they figured it out he lasted a bit longer, but still he was already dead just by hidan getting one drop of blood plus hes immortal XD you cant say he got owed by hidan when hidan can fight, and keep fighting till youre worn out and then just pick you off or just grab some blood you may have dropped on the ground and kill you from a distance like he accidentally did to kakuza...this guy could kill you with an old band aid hahahaha he could literally be the greatest assassin ever. alll he has to do is catch you when your sleeping and bam! he he could probably take out a whole village in one night if he put his mind to it lmfao

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Naruto had time constraints, and whether you like it or not there were risks involved even despite him jumping in the pool of oil, hence why only he and Jiraiya are the only ninja to ever become Toad Sages to our knowledge, everyone else died trying.

they didnt know that pain was attacking the village so there was no time restraint that they knew off, if ma didnt go to konoha to grab groceries or whatever he wouldve went back to a pile of ruble. naruto wass just too hot headed in that situation

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Jiraiya never went there at 14, I don't know where the hell you are getting that from because it was never in the manga. Again, Jiraiya went there when he was Kakashi's age or so it seems from how he looked.

And is it bullshit? Of course it is, but the manga demanded it. Just like how Naruto could create FRS yet his genius of all geniuses father could not.

in this episode jiraya first went to the mountain at 13( sorry i was busy and couldnt find link earlier)it even shows a young gama lol i dunno if its considered canon or not but it shows jiraya going there at 13, when hes sees sarutobi summon he tries it himself but since he doesnt have a contract he gets reverse summoned to tthe mountain where he starts training under the toads while doing missions with tsunade and oro when theyre kids which is why i said hes been training with the frogs forever now and naruto just beat him in 3 weeks which dont make sense to me. uzumaki or not it still shouldve taken naruto years since jiraya had been working on it for god knows how long

and who knows if minato was still alive he probably wouldve perfected it i mean it is 16 years since his death

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And just one thing to keep in mind. What is Asuma supposed to do if Naruto summons Ma and Pa or Bunta? Or would you like to take his ability to summon away as well?

we never saw asumas full capabilities so for all we know he couldve had monkey summons like the 3rd and he one of the 12 guardians... comparing naruto to dead or under developed characters is getting us no where we need to compare him to someone alive hahaha

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Sasuke has been in a total of two battles thus far since gaining MS where he hasn't immediately jumped to using it.

1) Vs. Bee, as this was his first battle even having it. He got himself killed twice because he didn't use it.

2) Vs. Raikage. He needed it to survive.

Your bias is about as bright as the Sun right now IMO. Both Naruto and Sasuke need to use there trump cards early because they are two 17-18 year olds fighting the strongest Shinobi in existence. Why would you wait to use a power when it can help you win and save your life . That has to be the stupidest thing I have ever heard.

And in Naruto's case, Sage Mode doesn't cost him anything to use, it just takes time to gather Natural Energy for it. That's like asking Sasuke not to activate his Sharigan until the fight is half over.

yeah but what im saying is he doesnt need to jump to it right away he usually gets his ass kicked first. at least he tries to assess the situation first then decide what to do

bee was to powerfull so he took a gamble with amaterasu( and bee has hachibi so is this really a valid argument?)
a was too quick so he used sussannoo as a shield

naruto can use his clones to figure out a strategy like he did against kakuza then have one clone off gathering natural energy and while its gathering, fight and gain info on the enemies battle style. he doesnt need to jump in right away theres ways around it and it shows ur full capabilites right of the bat.. what happens if he uses it too early and runs out? atleast by figuring a game plan u can use the abilities to there best and accordingly like sauske, he doesnt just jump into max strength without testing the waters first...at least before haha. hes shown he doesnt need to go powered up right away many times before but kishi keeps devolving him for some reason and if his base skills are as good as you say then he wont need to jump into it right away. as you said hes caught swords, he can create 1000 clones and has 3 times the chakra of kage level nin and has shown to be a competent fighter when needed... im sure he doesnt need to rush any mode right away he should be capable of assessing the situation with his natural abilities THEN decide what to do and which mode to use... but hey thats just me. im not being biased im being honest naruto can do all these cool things without power ups like sasuke has shown with a base sharigan so like wtf? i need to talk to kishi asap cause my head is starting to hurt

p.s remember on the roof when naruto and sasuke fought? naruto used the sun to blind sasukes vision. he can be smart and could beat sasukes sharigan with smarts as hes done before and he made perfect clones to the point neji couldnt tell which one was real. you guys may think im being biased but im not, i dont really have anything to complain about sasuke cause sasuke is doing his job as narutos rival. rivals are supposed to set the bar for you to overcome which is exactly whats hes doing, its just naruto is reaching the bar with power ups and not the skills he was born with

ill admit some of my views were biased before on his base skills but i do agree with you guys to some extent. narutos base skills may be jounin level, i can agree with you there, my problem is that when you compare him to the other jounin of the series he looks weak just cause he always jumps to the forms while theyre fighting akatsuki just being regular nin. he has 3 times chakra and is an uzumaki that is already a huge advantage and puts him in a leauge of super nin since birth. if anything he and sauske are perfectly matched when it comes to abilities and hax, i just want more from naruto you cant disagree with me there. he has the potential, why not use it?