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I see that the vote is being reported as 65-80 against a delay in certification. That’s a larger margin that I was expecting; does this mean that the vote wasn’t strictly along party lines? Did some Rs cross over to the D side of the issue? Any Ds other than Tim Sheldon (who is a bit of an ass) cross to the R side?

I guess I’ll have to go look at the legislatures web site, and see if a role call is being published.

Straight party line, with the exception of Senator Tim Sheldon voting for delay, and Representatives Don Cox and Shirley Hankins absent- Rep. Cox in the hospital and Rep. Hankins recovereing from surgery.

The legislature certifying the election means nothing at this point. It was a given so big deal. It’s what happens next that will matter. Rossi will be in court Friday. That’s when things will really start to take shape one way or the other regarding a possible revote.

Thanks. I would NOT want to be one of the State Supremes right now, knowing that whatever comes out of Chelan County will end up on their desk.

AND YOU HEARD THIS HERE FIRST: Short of a partisan &/or obnoxious ruling from the State Supremes, “everybody’s favorite Dinocrat” will call on my people to accept their ruling as final. As you know, the State Supremes have tried to do right by the law and by ALL Washington State/Ukraington.

TJB… the Legislature certifying the election means nothing because they voted to certify the election. If the Legislature had NOT certified, it would have had enormous impact, as I expect the GOP would have successfully spun that into a confirmation that all their claims are true: “This election was so corrupt, even a Democratic controlled Legislature couldn’t bring themselves to rubberstamp it…” or something like that.

Now it is on to the courts, which is the proper venue for contesting an election.

Ms. Gregiore can govern in King and the 7 other counties that elected her just fine until all the court actions finish. Then, if we can’t get a revote, we’ll have CA send us their notes on how to do a recall.

I still find it amazing that there is no admission of problems with the election from any of the democrats. I’m not crying, I’m not a sore loser. I just think there is evidence of incompetence. I can see a voter at a few precincts that voted without signing the book, but almost 2,000? That stretches credibility.

No one here is bothered by the dates on the bulk mailing for the military ballots, or why Dean Logan changed the web site info? Someone is spinning fast.

I noticed Shark’s comments about “alternative” media in his speech to the Republican protestors. Interesting. They got the President of the Evergreen Freedom Foundation, three popular radio talk show hosts to come to the rally, and much of the adversiting is paid for by that Wisconsin Brain Injury outfit.

The fake populism gets more ridiculous by the day. This isn’t “alternative” independent media – it is big business. They got 1000 people to their rally; the counterrally got 500. They got more because they promoted harder – because they aren’t grassroots, they aren’t alternative, they are just a well-funded political market segment. Men of the people my ass.

You need to pay more attention. I haven’t heard any Democrat say that there is no problems with the election or the system. The military ballots issue has been discussed here to death, and it appears to be misinformation. The problem of 350 wrongly handled provisional ballots is generally considered a problem.

The courts will sort out the allegations. If you had been paying attention, you would notice that the Republicans have made allegation after allegation, without evidence. Most of them are being exposed. Some of them may stand.

I stand with every other Democrat I know, or that I have seen post here, in wanting exposure and investigation of all election irregularities.

Really, what was the point of the Rossi rally today? This is in court. All the facts will be presented. If there is a cover-up, Rossi can make his case there. If Rossi loses, will these people recognize the legitimacy of Gregoire?

If Rossi wins, then I will recognize the legitimacy of that decision, and live with the result, and recognize the legally certified person (whoever that is) as governor. Hence, there isn’t any reason to attend a rally, is there?

Re the 15-vote margin in joint session — I thought Dem’s held a 55-43 elected margin in the House, with 2 absent today, so that’s +10 … and a 1-vote margin in the Senate (counting Tim S as an R), making it +11. By my math two (net) R’s crossed the line.

I’m sorry. They aren’t “trolls” unless they come back from the re-education camps without changing their attitude. I have no idea whether Eileen has been to the camps yet or not. Thanks for the correction, commarade.

Sound Politics “Sound Commentary on Current Events in Seattle, Puget Sound and Washington State” is what their heading says when in reality it should state “Sound Commentary, If you only write what we want to read and agree with us on every item”. The UnsoundOne (Snark) will only allow his cronies to post, any hint of another view gets blocked in minutes. Not a shining example of Freedom of Speech. On the other hand Josef’s blog is more neocon than unsound, but he takes his comments in stride and dishes the dissers his tainted views. Great work Goldy, everyone should buy you that beer.

I completely agree with Christine G’s assessment. There isn’t a Democrat I know who isn’t concerned about the problems exposed by this close election. Many of us are glad the legal process is moving forward, so we can settle these issues in a court of law and get past get away from the hyperbolic PR campaign the Republicans are subjected us to.

I think what you are really confused by, Janet S, is why Democrats don’t share your conclusion that the way to fix this is a ‘revote’. For me, it’s because I understand that elections are more equivalent to a game than an accounting exercise. Being a game, played by humans and referreed by humans, error is part of the process — but if you agreed to the rules at the beginning you can’t complain about them and ask for a do-over in the end. As Goldy (and I might add Dan Evans before him) pointed out, you don’t replay a close game. You can complain about the officiating, even blame the play calling of your own team, but if you win by 1 point or 10 you still win.

I can’t believe I am about to quote Ken Schram, but he got it right when he said:

“I pragmatically voted for Dino Rossi because I believed he’d be a better governor than Christine Gregoire.

Now I pragmatically choose to ignore the hysteria being whipped up by Chris Vance/Rants and crew because, in the end, it will accomplish nothing — unless you consider poisoning people on the political process an accomplishment.”

Again, I suspect most dems would accept that the count was not perfect (though I believe a perfect count would still have resulted in a Gregoire win, since I think the undercounting systematically disenfranchises urban voters, who are more likely to be dems). But, arguing about the imperfections is identical to saying that any election that is within a margin of error (2000 votes? 4000 votes? .1%)? should be grounds for a revote. If Rossi had argued for that after the first count I wouldn’t consider him a rank hypocrite.

Well now, the crack head Eileen has pretty much articulated the true goal of the Rs. I don’t think they really expect to get a special election, but they sure as heck are going to do their best to poison the waters, and see if they can make sure nothing is accomplished in Olympia. They’ll blame the Ds, but they are the ones who activily persue a philosophy that government can do no good.

I stand with every other Democrat I know, or that I have seen post here, in wanting exposure and investigation of all election irregularities.

Comment by Christine G— 1/11/05 @ 3:47 pm

the problem Christine G is that you an dth eothers won’t acknoledge election irregularities exist to be investigated. Every allegations or situation is dismissed by you and your side as a lie, a misrepresentation, made up, or just plain irrelevent. Pretty easy to say investigate when nothing meets your standards to qualify as an irregularity. Addrss the probelms on an individual basis and explain why you don;t support the investigation of each.

Improperly machine fed Porvisional Ballots, you mention these but of course this is not enough, in your opinion to raise doubt of this election – give me a break.

If you go back and read my comment, I said nothing about a revote. I was responding more to the unanimous D’s who voted to certify the election with nary a comment. The email campaign is full of misrepresentation of the problem. No one claims organized fraud – as claimed by Judy Clibborn (my representative) in her email response.

Again, something stinks here, and D’s should be honest enough to admit it. That doesn’t mean you want a re-vote. It just means that you aren’t willing to mindless buy into a certification that is clearly out of line.

It is all so sad. Quote from the SPI “But sales quickly picked up after Gregoire’s narrow 129-vote win over Rossi in the hand recount, and Hoefling said they expect 3,500 people – about 1,000 short of a sell-out – to attend the swank event. Some Republicans who bought the $75 tickets in the belief that their candidate had won want a refund, but that is not possible.” The poor BlueCrue wants their? money back? I doubt if they spent a penny. Big Bro, BIAW probably bought their dinner checks.

The dead voters thing is mentioned as a terrible piece of somthing gone bad. So far it is 7 or 8 cases, maybe less. Two of the dead are wives of elderly Rossi supporters. Eat them up R’s. Crucify the grief struck old guys. thinking muddled and sketchy.

These are really vapid people. Of course they are fishing still – and big fraud conspiracy which is so hard to find – after three counts – will show up. No.

They are fishing for sturgeon in the kiddie pond with trout line and hooks.

As usual did not address theissues, just deflected to Rossi got atleast 2 dead vote. Meaningless. The fact is you cannot honestly stand by the reuslt of this election with a straight look on your face. I understand your not wanting it to be so, but you know it is. The fact is you cannot say where the extra votes came from and who they votes for. You cannot say at what ratio the Provisional ballots that entered into the machines illegally went. You cannot say who the felons voted for. And you certainly do not know , witht he exception of one who the dead votes went towards. Also you have not addressed the delay in getting the Military their ballots. But of course non of this matters, because elections aren’t perfect, there are ALWAYS mistakes, why should this one be any different. Well because we know about the mistakes and there are more then 10-20 times as many questionable votes then the slight 129 vote lead. Start dealing in facts and quit trying to deflect. Address each issue, explain to me how you justify your lack of interest in finding the truth? Oh, that’s right because your canidate has the lead. Wouldn’t want a little thing like the truth to screw that up for you. The pesky little facts always seem to upset you libs. If you ignore them long enough maybe they’ll go away.

The things you mentioned have all been discussed here. For the record, dead people shouldn’t vote. The eight or so instances of dead votes appear to be spouses or other close relatives. It’s a problem, but I don’t see how a revote will change it.

More votes than voters – this has been explained, again and again and again, but Republican county elections officials. If you don’t believe them, fine. I do.

I’m not up to date on allegations of multiple voting. I’ve seen things on soundpolitics that were debunked. Most of it likely falls in with the dead voting – how will a revote fix it.

This is properly in the courts, where the facts can be sorted out. I don’t believe what the bloggers and talk radio hosts say. I don’t ignore or discount any of it.

All the local arguments about Armed Services balloting seem to be trumped by the 2002 Federal Voting Rights Act. Under the relatively new act, folks in the military do NOT even need to be registered, and they may send in any letter, homemade ballot, however crude, to vote. AND, it must be counted by local counties of actual residence. This is the clear mandate of federal law.

Many of the county totals have ballots not connected to voters. Some of these are the new ballots from military not registered, but counted by federal fiat.

In truth, then, you cannot disenfranchise the armed services, the goal of the new rules. They need follow no rules as constructed for all the rest of us.

So, this is legally a bogus cause in this regard.. They (armed services voters) need only mail their version of a ballot, however crude, just names, just party, no required form, no required registration. It is mandated to be counted.

You can’t disenfranchise these voters vis a vis the state of Washington or any county, they are a protected class under current federal law.

The flaw is that their commanders did not tell them that out in the field. Neither did mom and dad from Tacoma. They don’t need that flim flam form from Pierce County anymore. And, several thousand used the new system effectively.

Good-bye legal accusations about the military. They already have mitigation and redress from the new federal law. More than the Supreme Court of this state can provide in any way, shape or form, as part of any lawsuit.

Thanks for your concern regarding my employment. Fortunately, I have been employed at the same company for about 16 years now. The Unemployed Busboy label is a reflection of the fact that as Dino Rossi is an “Unemployed Real Estate Salesman” (As Goldy & others have so labeled) We all have a job we are no longer employed at. For me I picked my long ago (High School) busboy days.

Anyway, the more votes then voters thing has been explained to your satisfaction, maybe. But, “These things never reconcile” or some version of this is not acceptable to me or most clear thinking individuals. Nor would it be acceptable to you if the roles were reversed. Ask yourself if Gregoire trailed by 129 and there were 1800 unaccounted for votes would you’d accept it. Be honest now. Please don’t make us rehash the whole checking account analogy again.

Unlike my liberal friends on this site, I will dismiss your post as lies, made-up or ludicrous because I honestly don’t know if what you say is true. But assuming it is, does not change anything really. When has any county claimed that they have to many ballots because some where written on pieces of toilet paper in Iraq and sent it and they must count them because of this law you explain above? Why have no poll observers said, “Hey whats that weird looking piece of paper that’s no Ballot, that should not count? Would they not have had it explained to them that Military votes don’t need a ballot? Would we not have heard about the hand written love notes before this post? I tend to think we would have. Convince me otherwise.

Earth to Chris – I accept this election. I know there have been mistakes. I live with a lot of human mistakes, most of all, my own.

I have a bookkeeper that should run King County elections. There would never be any mistakes. And he kicks butt if his rules are not followed.

Mistakes are not fraud, and I am not sure they have changed the results. Sure – in a ratio of less then one voter per precinct, provisional ballots got fed into the counting machine. No fraud. Most of the folks thought they were doing someone a favor — get real. Long lines, watching others feed the counter, I am through with my ballot, I go feed the counter — get real Chris. Think of all — all — all of the people you have ever known. How many ballot thieves and fraud voters? Grandma, ex boss, auntie, current boss — who are the wretches who conspired to fuck this count. Not in my big ring of people, not in yours. Get real.

They are phantom conspirators constructed by the ruthless and cynical R media harangue. Trash accusations, unfounded and stupid. Invented by stupid Vance.

The issue before the court will be whether these are illegal votes, not whether King or other counties can match up the number of voters to the number of votes. The revote folks seem to want to presume if the vote is not proved valid, it is preumed illegal. But the statutes don’t provide for that. The contesting party must prove a sufficient number of illegal votes appear to have been cast for the winner, that if subtracted, would give the winner less votes than the loser, after subtracting illegal votes for the loser. So this argument that proving 130 illegal votes is enough is nonsense. So is the argument that if we can’t really tell who got more votes, throw it out.

The odds are all of those 1800 or so votes are legal. King Co can’t prove it, but they don’t have to. Rossi has to prove they were illegal.

The 350 or so provisional ballots are likely 85 to 90 % valid like the provisional that were checked. There’s maybe 40 illegal votes, net 8 to Gregoire. Oops, just gave back two for the dead wives club. “She always voted the way I told her when she was alive. I saw no reason to stop after she died.”

This is not going to be the slam dunk they think over at (un)Sound Politics, unless the judge ignores the statutes.

I honestly have not yet heard a single good explanation for the “votes without voters.” Dumping on poll workers was Dean Logan’s latest ploy. He claims that they don’t know what they are doing, and let all those people vote without signing in. I don’t buy it. If this happened, was it deliberate? Were the unknown votes concentrated in certain precincts?

THe new military procedure doesn’t explain it either. These ballots would be very easy to identify and segregate. Seems like this would have already been mentioned if it was true – would have been an easy explanation.

Provisional ballots processed without documentation? Probably. Why didn’t Logan fix this 6 months ago on advice of the SOS? It is not an unknown problem.

I read a lot – but I seem to have missed the repeated explanation of this. Why it is just okay to have such a glaring error in the count? Dean Logan and Ron Sims seem to be just fine with the appearance of stuffing the ballot box. Why?

Yes, I would accept it. Of course, you think I’m not being honest. I could compare it to Florida, but you’ll reject that comparison.

I really do believe in the rule of law. If a court says the election stinks, then I’ll accept that. I wasn’t upset when Rossi was up by 40. I didn’t get upset over the US Supreme Court decision in Bush v. Gore. I understand that, whether it’s Rossi by 40 or Gregoire by 129, we have surpassed the limits of the system to give us an accurate result, and that the result is arbitrary. You don’t have to find three more dead people to persuade me that the result is arbitrary.

Rationally, I can’t imagine anyone getting upset over this. There is no perfect resolution to a tied election. There is only a legal result.

Fraud is irrelevent to the outcome of this contest. Fraud does not need to be proven. Mistakes, incompetence and the like could very well be grounds for a re-vote. You getting caught up on the R’s needing to prove fraud, will be your mistake. That being said I am sure that there are some out there that did commit fraud, knowingly voting illegally, felons for example. But that does not need to be the basis of this case. If enough errors where committed (even with the best of intentions) and they clearly were that could be grounds to move this to a re-vote. Question for you? If you and I ran a one mile race for $1,000,000.00 and the person keeping your time accidentally started your timer early and I won by 1 second would you give me the million $ without a fight? After all accidents happen! She did not mean to do it. Forgive and forget, it’s only a million dollars. What if She admitted she started your time early but did not know for sure by how much? There’s no way to know for sure, do you ask me to run the race again? Do you contest the results and try to get your million dollars?

There have been mention of these ballots from counties who have more ballots than registered voters. The non traditional ballots are part of that too many ballots problem because they were never registered.

Bu I have hot heard a better explanation than mine what that all means.

Call your county in the am. Ask the auditor.

Just another example of propaganda vs. fact. The R’s love to wave the flag about everything…and impune as non patriotic all views except theirs. Makes me furious. I am a super patriot. My vision of the perfect America is not in total accord with rightwinger R’s, that’s all.

Dean Logan says he doesn’t know why there are votes without voters, and it is higher than he expected. I don’t need to ask some other county auditor, I am not listening to propaganda, I don’t need to wait to hear the court argument. The guy admitted it. So that isn’t proof enough for you that something is wrong?

The problem is you cannot identify who all illegal or incorrectly counted (Provisionals not verified) votes went to because they are all combined. That is why a re-vote is the only option. If 350 ballots where incorrectly fed into the machines and combined with valid ballots you cannot assume a ratio and call 80% of them valid. Noone knows for sure who those ballots were for or they validity so their inpact is uncertain making the result uncertain, making a re-vote the only option.

Reply to Janet – The new procedures for some of the military votes does explain some of the so called missing voters. There is also the transfer from inactive to active. Provisional ballots being counted by eager voters or sloppy workers. Not counting sign-ins accurately, many other mistakes. All accented by the sheer volume of King Co ballots.

The OTHER reason I posted about the Feds and the military voters and what that really means, is to deflate all the non factual R’s braying about the Armed Services vote. It needs to be clear they do not depend on the counties of origin for their voting rights. And that makes a big difference in the R’s suit and spin. Fact, impossible to disenfranchise the informed army voter – federal low says not possible. That voter can make no mistakes.

New standards for those alone. Federal. All Washington counties have no option but to count even crude home made ballots without any registration on file.

All R’s song and dance accusations in the lawsuit about army/sailor voters are moot. Trumped by Federal law, and Federal fiat.

Btw, we heard there were still 1,000 tickets to the ball remaining as of today. Come on, you lefties, doesn’t your queen Christine have at least 4500 – 5000 of you out there who could come to help her celebrate? And rem, some of those 3500 who DID buy are republicans who didn’t know there’d be a bait & switch on the guest of honor, so they’re not going. Aren’t you guys gonna help her save face and fill that party tomorrow night??? How would you feel if you were Christine and your party was the only ball that didn’t sell out in WA history?

I CAN’T WAIT FOR THE MARUMMY BALL (since Mrs. Rossi’s awfully – well – mature). Summer dresses, lots of girls and the hostess – woo-hoo! And if the namesake’s taken, then I got a wingmate at EFF I can hang out w/. Guys, you’re gonna lose and you know it.

Next time you try to win an election – just call 1-800-TALMADGE. No dead voting necessary, no double voting required and NO ballot altering tolerated.

Btw, we heard there were still 1,000 tickets to the ball remaining as of today. Come on, you lefties, doesn’t your queen Christine have at least 4500 – 5000 of you out there who could come to help her celebrate? And rem, some of those 3500 who DID buy are republicans who didn’t know there’d be a bait & switch on the guest of honor, so they’re not going. Aren’t you guys gonna help her save face and fill that party tomorrow night??? How would you feel if you were Christine and your party was the only ball that didn’t sell out in WA history? -Comment by M— 1/11/05 @ 11:49 pm

They don’t support their own if it means effort and/or cash – they just make lots of noise and spin around and around to make it look like they are actually in motion toward a purpose.

Now Josef, have you bought your ticket yet? If not, get MOVING and buy yours. And bring 5 friends with you. I’m gonna get this gig sold out for her if it’s the last thing I do. Surely she has 4500 good friends who want to go to this inaugural ball. LISTEN UP, LEFTIES: BUY YOUR BALL TIX NOW! Help your queen feel better about herself. Don’t let her have the only not-sold-out ball in history! Hey- you shoudl be thanking me for trying to help her out in her distress. I don’t see you guys trying to help her sell out her gig tomorrow night.

Well, my SIGN was orange, but that doesn’t mean I can’t do my good deed for the day and help Gregoireovich save a little face for a few hours. HEY LEFTIES, buy your ball tickets now. GIve Christine a reason to show off that Penny’s formal gown she purchased last week.

There must be a wing-nut manual somewhere that says, “When losing the argument, make fun of your opponent. Call her a commie, make fun of her kids, or the way she dresses. It will distract from the fact that you’re losing”

Josef – I’ve had enough of the false equivalency. Saying “Rossi better not disapoint his daughter if he has to tell her she’s not getting the room she wants, we all know how teenage girls are” (which is a general comment) is far different than saying “Gregoire’s daughters look like redneck idiots”.

Just like it’s different to say “Rossi is an unemployed former real-estate salesman” vs. “Gregoire is a ‘commie mama’ crybaby surrounded by creeps”.

Just because each side is commenting on the other doesn’t make it equal. You’ve been threatening people and calling them ridiculous names for weeks. Just because we criticize your candidate for his failure to concede doesn’t make it the same.

The only solace I can take in this travesty is the fact that she won’t do any better in the Governor’s office than she did as Attorney General, so we’ll only have to tolerate the arrogant hag for four miserable years.

“Four tickets to the Washington States Governor’s Inaugural Ball. I had planned on going to the Governors Ball, but King Co. allowed over 1,800 people to vote when they were not registered to vote. Because of King Co. incompetence, my vote was cheapened. Therefore I’m selling these $75.00 a piece tickets at a fire sale price.

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