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I'm an ISTJ, and I can pick apart most flaws in an argument or conversation, as well as really twisting the words right out of a persons mouth. I can't think of any specific examples, but I use it mostly for fun. I take an innoculous bit of conversation, mess with it, and send them on spirals of justifications before they catch on. I wanted to know if this were an SJ thing, or just something personal.

EDIT: Also, picking out the flaws in arguments or papers no matter how inane, is something i'm good at. Generally, I am a good person to run argumentative papers by.

Yeah, but it gets me into arguments, even when I haven't intended it to. My mum used to say I should be a lawyer because I picked apart everything she said. I probably would have been a good lawyer actually.
I love words generally though, as a linguist who's also written for a newspaper and had a bit of PR experience. I'm interested in how just changing the use of a seemingly innocuous word can change the whole meaning of what you say, and how words translate into different things in different languages. I love persuasion through words.

Originally Posted by OregonENFP

I think SJ's can pick apart the flaws in most anything.

Originally Posted by Spectre of the spam

I normally don't post here because I only post if I have questions or something worthwhile to contribute. That's in case you're wondering why a forum noob posted a thread out of nowhere.

Now back on topic. This is enlightening for me. It seems as a general rule from the responses, SJ's, and ISTJ's in particular, can see the flaws in conversations, and thing's in general. The bonus of this in my mind is that if you run a plan by one of us, we can remove most of the flaws and the end product comes out with highly improved quality. The negative side is the fact that if not carefully monitored, this trait could express itself by creating a negitive view of the world, where one see's only flaws. Essentially poisoning a person's perspective. I'd appreciate feedback on what you all think of this.

That is exactly how I was going to respond to Oregon's post above... It's fine for some things but it can make you very cynical and give you a negative world view. I know that's my major downfall - people can easily tell a negative person and it's not an attractive trait. I keep my mouth shut mostly though, for peace.

EDIT: Lol, I wonder if this is why a friend recently came to me and asked for her bad points so she could work on them before a job interview. I reeled off a list and she cheerfully thanked me. Mind you, she's ESTJ so you'd think she'd have a clue.

It is fun to do this, the tables are rarely turned. It is fun, but I only do it when someone needs a good laugh or if they make me mad and sometimes it can get me into trouble if I carry it too far.

It is a sword that can fall both ways though, because sometimes I do it without even noticing and it all turns out to be a big misunderstanding!

Happens to me too d@ve. It just occurs naturally.

Originally Posted by Shadow

Yeah, but it gets me into arguments, even when I haven't intended it to. My mum used to say I should be a lawyer because I picked apart everything she said. I probably would have been a good lawyer actually.
I love words generally though, as a linguist who's also written for a newspaper and had a bit of PR experience. I'm interested in how just changing the use of a seemingly innocuous word can change the whole meaning of what you say, and how words translate into different things in different languages. I love persuasion through words.

Ohh, get that "you should be a lawyer bit all the time. I actually do think it might be a decent career choice. I would have to be a constitutional lawyer though...

It is interesting how just they seemingly smallest thing can change the meaning of what you are saying. Sort-of a subtle beauty and terror at the same time.

Originally Posted by Shadow

That is exactly how I was going to respond to Oregon's post above... It's fine for some things but it can make you very cynical and give you a negative world view. I know that's my major downfall - people can easily tell a negative person and it's not an attractive trait. I keep my mouth shut mostly though, for peace.

EDIT: Lol, I wonder if this is why a friend recently came to me and asked for her bad points so she could work on them before a job interview. I reeled off a list and she cheerfully thanked me. Mind you, she's ESTJ so you'd think she'd have a clue.

I love analyzing conversations, i hear everything they are saying and i am also reading in between the lines. If i hear flaws, then i will mention them.

My sister did a stupid test on Facebook the other day and her result was that she was a well rounded and balanced individual. She is a unhealthy ESTP. So i added 'Lmao, reply to this as a well rounded and balanced individual'. Her reply 'Hmmmm'.

Another person mentioned 'if everyone died tomorrow who cares one less person in the world to worry about hey' .. so i replied 'If everyone died tomorrow then it wouldn't be one less person, it would be 6.2 billion less people'.

I know it could be perceived as being a smart ass. I just find it all funny.

“I made you take time to look at what I saw and when you took time to really notice my flower, you hung all your associations with flowers on my flower and you write about my flower as if I think and see what you think and see—and I don't.”
― Georgia O'Keeffe

I'm an ISTJ, and I can pick apart most flaws in an argument or conversation, as well as really twisting the words right out of a persons mouth. I can't think of any specific examples, but I use it mostly for fun. I take an innoculous bit of conversation, mess with it, and send them on spirals of justifications before they catch on. I wanted to know if this were an SJ thing, or just something personal.

Yeah, I wouldn't use the word "twisting" -- cause that sounds like manipulation -- and I haven't experienced manipulation by ISTJ before. But, I do agree that ISTJs don't let you get away with saying stuff that is factually inaccurate. My ISTJ roomie frequently says, "That is ridiculous" to me, but once I get across my meaning (which is completely accurate-just sans details), he gets it. Doesn't mean that I get away with it. He hears the flaws, but he tends to humor me in a good-natured way. I think it would be different if I thought he believed I was stupid (because of how I tend to inflate my stories to make them funnier).

Oh, I do that all the time. Usually just for fun. I hear everything very literally, and will pick at people sarcastically all the time.

This has gotten me into trouble in real arguments, though. Like you said, that is a downside of it.

Si, Fe equal Fi & Ti

"I had a bag of Fritos, they were Texas grilled Fritos. These Fritos had grill marks on them. They remind me of summer, when we used to fire up the barbeque and throw down some Fritos. I can still see my dad with the apron on. Better flip that Frito, dad, you know how I like it." -Mitch Hedberg

My ESTJ mother appears to twist things when she's angry or upset. What I think is really going on is her being too bogged down in the negatives to acknowledge the positive. It's like everything said to her is a personal attack, rather than a way of reasoning. My dad is an INTP, and he likes his privacy. My mother wanted to know the password for his email account so she could keep an eye on him (of course, the second part was never stated, but obviously implied). When he refused, stating that he needs his privacy, my mother twisted it around, accusing him of having an affair. I think it's all about subjective perception.

EDIT: Lol, I wonder if this is why a friend recently came to me and asked for her bad points so she could work on them before a job interview. I reeled off a list and she cheerfully thanked me. Mind you, she's ESTJ so you'd think she'd have a clue.

Lol, I do this all the time. And you'd be surprised. We're great at noticing flaws in other people, but not necessarily in ourselves - and (sometimes) we recognize that, which is why we ask other people about them (like your ESTJ friend did).

Originally Posted by Rachelinpa

Yeah, I wouldn't use the word "twisting" -- cause that sounds like manipulation -- and I haven't experienced manipulation by ISTJ before. But, I do agree that ISTJs don't let you get away with saying stuff that is factually inaccurate.

I've found that NTs do this a LOT more than SJs do, actually. Maybe it's just a "T" thing? I know that if you say something incorrect around an F, they'll be more likely to hold in their correction than a T would be.

Last edited by EJCC; 06-13-2009 at 02:32 AM.

EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"