Amp2 vs beocreate

Hi
I have a pair of jbl4401 monitors speakers.
I believe they have a nominal impedence of 8homs and rated at 60W.
At the moment they are powered with a Marantz Pm5004, rated 90W, and I barely push it half way twice a year.
I'm not a super audiophile but I a read that these speakers need quite a bit of current to, and are to a certain extend, made to be pushed. In other words it seems to work better with amps rather on the aggressive side that the smooth one.
but all this is internet saying.

I just wonder if the Amp2 will be powerful enough or will it suffer to move these speakers?
I also consider the beocreate but do not intend to cut the crossover od create a custom dsp so it seems overrated.

10 comments

thank's for replying, I'm as sceptical as before, you do not seems very convinced it can handle them appropriatly. I mean, of couses sound will play, and probably quite loud, but maybe not in optimal condition for both the amp and the speakers.

Indeed, and 60w is actually the peak level, otherwise it should rather be seen as 40w, and anyhow we indeed need to consider the sensivity un this case around 88db spl which is not very high.
By optimal condition i naively repeat what vie read, that both amp ans speaker delivers better audio quality when used un their confort zone, while phushing the amp un ordre to move the speakers cause peaking and fuziness

Again i'm neither audiophile or audio hardware crazy neither really into specs when it comes to audio, i juste have read on several occasion that these speakers were a bit demanding, thus my question.
But if you fell confident that the amp2 will ne fine i may well rive it a try.

Zone stupide question thow, how do you cotrol the volume ? From software only ? Can't it ne used with a control knob?
Tanks

88db sensitivity at 1W/1m will give you 102db/1m at 25W input power. I don't know many people who listen to levels like this. If you don't have extremely large rooms, this is more than enough.

There is often a misunderstanding about amplifier power. Doubling the power won't change a lot. It will result in 3dB more output volume. That's NOT doubling the output volume. To double the perceived output volume, you would require 10 times the output power.Most systems at home never run at full power.

Volume can be controlled in software. There are some people using rotary controls to control the volume. This will require some additional software that reads data from the rotary control and then controls the volume.

It's dificult to have appropriate expectation without more extensive information.

On the amp2 page you write "It provides up to 60W power" ok so we can assume 2*30W, all right, but is it peak or RMS ?if it's peak how much rms could we expect ? with 4 and 8 oms speakers ?

Ok and let's assume it can deleiver 2*30w rms with 8 oms speaker.

Our usage would be around 2*25W RMS with 8 oms speakers, what THD are we dealing with ? 10% or <0.1% ? Or we may ask the question the orher way round how many W can we get while staying be bellow 0.1% THD ?

the optimal condition I mentionned apears obvious in this respect. When I bought my marrantz pm5004, I didin't have to bother, not only because the spec are detailled all around, I haven't read it, but because I know it's a device I won't be using close to it's limits, but this is not the case with amp2, and I don't want to be on the edge every other day.

You know better than me how marketing around audio material is spoiling the whole domain, again I'm not an audiophile and I don't mind about high end stuff, but as a consumer I simply would like to find the right product for me, it could be amp2, beocreate, of others from alternave make.

I'm not even trying to juge which rpi amp board is the best or the more powerfull, but simply identify which one fits my needs or envie. then I may chose what tech I prefer, if there is any, what will be easier to use, what make I may rather support.

I really don't think your usage would be around 25W per channel. Are you really are listening to a Volume of 100dB? Because that's what it would mean to use 25W. In any way you would be able to do this only with sine waves and I don't think, you're listening to those. Music has less energy than sine waves.

The Amp2 stays below 0.1% THD RMS at 28W per channel.

Again: To find the "right" product, power isn't really helping. Has a 20W amplifier more "reserves" than a 30W amplifier? In theory yes, but you won't hear the difference in volume.

It also doesn't help to compare the power output of a modern Class-D amplifier with an old-style Class-AB amplifier. Both behave differently when clipping occurs.

How big is your listening room and what is the distance from your listening position to your speaker?

Best regards,Daniel

BTW: Your JBL speakers are 8 Ohm speakers. The do NOT require "quite a bit of current". With the same sensitivity (in db/W/m) output current on an 8 Ohm speaker will be LOWER than on an 4 Ohm speaker.

Another remark to output power numbers: I have seen competitors showing higher power output ratings than ours. Interestingly these are higher than the capabilities of the amplifier chips they are using. So if you're afraid about "marketing" your should NOT trust any single number given you by any manufacturer.

If this post is from you:https://www.gearslutz.com/board/low-end-theory/468302-jbl-4401-monitors.htmlI can tell you that at least 2 power output numbers are just incorrect. You can easily calculate the maximum power into an 8 Ohm load by the simple formulaP = Vrms*Vrms/Rwhere Vrms is the RMS of the voltage (peak *sqrt(2)). With V=24V you will you will get Vrms=17V and Pmax = 36W. That's the maximum that's physically possible at an 8 Ohm load (with an optimal amplifier with no amplifier losses at all). If somebody claims to bring more power output from a 24V power supply, I recommend to ask them how they do this.

Haha you got me, I listen to sine waves all day long. Héhé, no I don't and I'll never, otherwise please come help me out ;-)

Ok now let me tease you a bit. Power is not everything, you mentioned it, so why we only get to know is that "it provides up to 60W". If it do not make sense per se, why would we even bother ?! Don't name it, or give us something real, like that it can provide 2*28W RMS on 8 Ohm speakers with a TDP <0.1%. (or whatever enables us to know the comfort zone and limits of the device)

Most of us do not know what this exatly means, true strory, I neither. Then, why not add that, as such, it can drive most speakers to music à 25M2 room for every day life as well as for a party where you have to shout to hear each other 50cm away.

I would go for it, no more needed.

The fact is that I had to get to understand the basics of the units above and their relationship to evaluate wether amp2 would rock my world or sleep the grany in the elevator.

If I compare these tiny class D amps with classic class A/B it's because it is my reference, and as technically different it may be, it offers a baseline. If comparing the numbers is not relevent, that's fine, but let us and help up compare what makes sense, could it be dB, audio quality, power (again, ho no) versatility, you chose :-)

About dB.

I just did a short test, listenening few tracks at various levels: some piano solo play by abdulah ibrahim, Oquestrada (a portugaise band with a dominant woman voice), fela kuti with ginger backer, and svinkels (a french fusion hip-hop/punk band)

I used the first app on the XXstore as a sono meter. It isn't calibrated but returns between 30 and 50db at the window mesuring street noise, 60 when a car pass by and 70 when it was a small garbage truck (just passing by, not collecting)

when listening the piano as a working background music I was around 45 dB with peak at 60dB, then I went up to 75dB in average and 82db as peak with the two last songs.

I aknowledge it was loud, not extremly thow. The "power" was between 33% on the amp and 50% on volumio up to 50% on the amp and 100% on volumio (on a rpi 3B with hifiberry dac+, 5m rca wire to the amp and 5m wire to the speakers, but pretty thick ones). Typically that's a volume I may enjoy for and hour, but probably not much more, and even in day time, one may expect to have the neighboug at the door if it become an every day habit.

I definitly go beyond when drunk friends are dancing late without considering the neighbour, but it's three to four times a year and probably not up to 100dB, you are right.

The room+kitchen would be 35m2, if I'm right in front of my speakers it's about 2m, if I'm in the garden I'm some 5 to 15m away on the right side of the speakers, but i usually bring one speker out.

:-)

PS :

Regarfing numbers, I got to learn about db/w/m, W, THD, etc., not only because I'm keen to learn about technologies, but because marketing, fake numbers, and improbable metrics mess the market. Yesterday eve, I've read that a given amp (not a pi hat) provides 2*65W on 8 Ohm with a THD of 10%, and later I've read that it was (more or less) equivalent to 2*20W RMS on 8 Ohm speakers with a THD <0.1%.

WTF, why would I care about the amp ability to deliver something at a THD of 10% while it is a ridiculous value that even the cheapest bluetoth speaker on aliexpress would beat. And why would I care that the amp2 can provide up to 60W, without knowing anything more ?

I belive some market their producs with fake numbers, but it do not mean you shouldn't provide any, I may belive that your numbers are not acurate, but I may also trust you, especially if you give enough data in a consistent way. You'll be my king if I get to understand other's people numbers after reading yours, because your product presentation is toughfull without beeing overwhelming. If your product presentation is as cryptic, both due to lack of data as weel as consistent and didactic explaination, as the others one, you can't expect gain credibility over them, it's a hand in the crab basket.

At some stage I said to myself, one of the best way to compare these amp hat is to compare the chip they uses, at least it has extensive spect sheet, no need to understand the details, the header says most.

There I saw that yours and justboom use the same, while audiophonics and subtronics both x400 and x5000 use the same.

but I've also seen that the later indeed add an amp to a dac chip, while you use a chip that combine dac and amp, thus the amp2 is not excatly a dac+ with an integrated amp, unless the chip you use includes a pcm5122, but I guess it don't

We provide the information that the Amp2 delivers up to 60W (which is quite conservative) to give people an idea about the dimension of the output power. I think that will give you a rough idea. That's what we wan't to do.

To get a full understanding about the output power you would need lots of numbers at different impedances, operating voltages, frequencies, frequency ranges, weighting-parameters and distortion levels. There is no "easy" way to interpret these numbers that can be introduced by just a small document. Therefore we don't spend time on creating documents with lots of numbers that don't help most customers at all. We do a lot of internal testing with an Audio Precision audio analyser, but these measurements are only used internally. Just clearly documenting the measurement setup, parameters and everything would take a lot of time that we like to spend on improving products. We're a very small company, so there aren't just some engineers waiting for more work ;-)

BTW: Measuring the maximum power at 10% THD is quite normal in the industry. In general this is used because this is clearly a level where the amplifier clips and therefore it is quite consistent. There are a lot of amplifiers that have higher distortion levels than 0.1% THD+N. That doesn't mean these are bad amplifiers.

The amplifier chip we're using basically includes the PCM5122. It's not advertised as this by the manufacturer, but other vendors also do not document every detail ;-)

My best advise would be not to look at the raw number, but always at the rough dimension of those numbers. You will notice a difference between an 3W and a 30W amplifier, but most likely you won't notice a difference between 30W and 40W.

A personal impression about the output volume: I'm experimenting here a lot with all kinds of software. That sometimes results in situation where the volume is at 100%. That really hurts in my ears because it is ALWAYS too loud. I wouldn't use the Amp for outdoor parties but that's a completely different use case.

It's true that a number like 60W doesn't say much, which is why you should tell us what amplifier chip you are using. Then we could check the datasheet to answer a myriad of questions, like whether 60W is already at 10% THD. I guess you're probably using a TI digital input chip such as TAS5754M. But why withhold the information? Also I can't find any pinout diagrams.