I bought this set the day it came out, but I have been re-investigating the DVD recently. This is my favorite group and there is precious little video footage of them playing live together, so this is an incredible resource. There's excellent footage of Tony attacking that ride cymbal, especially on the 10/31/67 concert.

I'm guessing Ants and all the other Tony freaks already have this, but if not, JUST GET IT:

I bought this set the day it came out, but I have been re-investigating the DVD recently. This is my favorite group and there is precious little video footage of them playing live together, so this is an incredible resource. There's excellent footage of Tony attacking that ride cymbal, especially on the 10/31/67 concert.

I'm guessing Ants and all the other Tony freaks already have this, but if not, JUST GET IT:

I am having a hard time finding this CD/ DVD for sale from other stores besides Amazon. In the past when Amazon offered the music on the CD as well as an auto-rip version, the sound quality is truly horrible on the CD. It seems like they burn a copy of the ripped version for you on the CD. So from experience I have tried to keep away from buying CD's when the auto-rip is offered. What is the sound quality of this CD from Amazon?

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I am not here just to keep the beat; I add color, timbre, and presence.

I am having a hard time finding this CD/ DVD for sale from other stores besides Amazon. In the past when Amazon offered the music on the CD as well as an auto-rip version, the sound quality is truly horrible on the CD. It seems like they burn a copy of the ripped version for you on the CD. So from experience I have tried to keep away from buying CD's when the auto-rip is offered. What is the sound quality of this CD from Amazon?

I've never heard of this. What is an auto-rip? The sound of the CD from Amazon isn't going to be confused with a studio date or anything, but it's not bad enough to ruin the music.

To "rip" is to copy something onto your computer.
It's usually used concerning music or video pieces.
If you lend me an album for me to try out, and I really like the music, I can "rip" it onto my computer and give you back your CD.
Now I can listen to the music anytime I want to, because I now have a copy of it.
If you go back to the Amazon page you linked to, and look just above the upper right corner of the picture of the album cover, you'll see the words "auto-rip".
Basically, you pay for the album, then they automatically send the album and store it on your computer.
There's no physical "object" to have, its all virtual.
Thus, no shipping (and waiting for the mail to arrive), so it SHOULD BE cheaper and the whole thing happens, pretty much, instantaneously.
I feel its an okie-dokie practice, if you're rather nonchalant about music and are just ripping pop pieces that you won't care about 6 months from now, but I feel you're more of a connoisseur than that. I fear that the computer your music is stored on will go down and if you can' recover it, then its lost, possibly forever.
SO, you move the rip to a "safe storage location" and in my mind, that's where ripping loses its value. If I have to store it in somekind of "safe location", I might as well just get the dam'd CD and be done with it.
...MHO.

I've been ripping my music to the hard drives for storage for many years, and lately because of the larger size hard drives available, I sometimes rip to a WAV format as opposed to the MP3 format when I want to really enjoy the music. I also back up my hard drives often and have a portable drive that works well. The sound quality is significant better in a lot of cases.

But, what I was saying before about the Amazon auto-rip being available. I just hear the qualities of the CD's to be very poor whenever they offer the auto-rip version for free with the purchase of the CD. It is like they did the cheap low quality auto-rip before you get the music. So as a rule, I have been keeping away from the purchase of CD's on Amazon when this is the case. Now, I am not totally sure about this happening 100% of the time, so that is why I posted this as a question about the sound quality of the 1967 CD.

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I am not here just to keep the beat; I add color, timbre, and presence.

evolving_machine, and anyone else for that matter, you do whatever makes you happy.
I was only stating my opinion on the practicality of possessing music virtually.
If you're fine with it, go for it and more power to you.

I've seen clips from this concert before, but I somehow never saw this particular performance. The sound and camerawork are terrific, maybe the best chance to watch Tony doing his thing in a more traditional style (even though this is post-Lifetime, you'll see what I mean). And playing Paiste! The drums sound sublime, too.

I've seen clips from this concert before, but I somehow never saw this particular performance. The sound and camerawork are terrific, maybe the best chance to watch Tony doing his thing in a more traditional style (even though this is post-Lifetime, you'll see what I mean). And playing Paiste! The drums sound sublime, too.

One other note, if you guys haven't you should all check the vinyl that blue note is reissuing. They got the sound even closer to the original masters using some kind of digital sorcery. I have a couple so far (Genius of Modern Music Vol. 1 and No Room For Squares), and I have to say I really really love the sound!

I feel like this album doesn't get its due in discussions about the Wayne Shorter discography. It probably has something to do with being recorded in 1965 but not released until 1979.

It's right up there with Wayne's best, as far as I'm concerned. Hearing McCoy and Tony together is fascinating. Tyner's usual drummer, Elvin, is about as stylistically different from Tony as you can get, but the way Tony plays with him here works out great.

Tony's playing and drum sound have never been better, imo. At this young stage of his career, Tony was very much like Jack in that he never seemed to repeat himself or play licks.

Last night, I got to witness the great Wayne Shorter Quartet. I'm not a spiritual man, but it was a spiritual experience. Wayne can really still play. And I have to admit, I got a little freaked out by being in the presence of one of my all-time heroes.

Brian Blade is a master. I don't think I have ever seen a drummer more in-the-moment and in such a sustained state of pure rapture. The empathy between the band members is astounding. I think this is one of the finest improvisational groups around. They are definitely not resting on their laurels.

I can't recommend seeing this group strongly enough. They received multiple standing ovations from an appreciative audience. A really great night I got to share with my daughter.

Last night, I got to witness the great Wayne Shorter Quartet. I'm not a spiritual man, but it was a spiritual experience. Wayne can really still play. And I have to admit, I got a little freaked out by being in the presence of one of my all-time heroes.

Brian Blade is a master. I don't think I have ever seen a drummer more in-the-moment and in such a sustained state of pure rapture. The empathy between the band members is astounding. I think this is one of the finest improvisational groups around. They are definitely not resting on their laurels.

I can't recommend seeing this group strongly enough. They received multiple standing ovations from an appreciative audience. A really great night I got to share with my daughter.

I saw them last year. Brian hit his drums so hard, his drum-tech had to readjust his floor tom twice. Wayne wanted to play the whole night, but the other band members had to almost carry him off stage. It was an awesome concert.

How do you approach practice for playing this kind of free form? I have a close friend who loves free jazz and I try to accompany him, but I keep running into a wall as far as what to play.

The criticism always comes down to playing more melodically, but I have a tough time putting it into practice playing in this aspect. Currently I am focusing mostly on Stick Control and Master Studies, but that's more on overall drumming than improving free jazz. Listening always helps, but I always end up swaying towards the styles of jazz I like.

It's the first time I am listening to this recording and it flows great, thank you for sharing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 8Mile

So a month later... cool, Spleen!

Anyway, I dug out this old classic that I haven't listened to for a while. It's on the "out" side for sure, which I dig.

Much of Ornette's earlier stuff, including this record, is what some now call "free bop"-- by which they usually mean bebop without normal form and harmonic structure. Most of what the drummers play is more or less normal bebop vocabulary, but since the music doesn't always adhere to the usual phrase lengths, and they're not soloing over the form of the tune, the drum stuff functions somewhat differently.

If you listen to Sunny Murray with Albert Ayler, or John Coltrane's Interstellar Space, or some of Paul Motian's playing, you'll hear another way of playing free, which doesn't have the time stated directly-- it's more textural, and the time is more of a zone than an exact pulse. There's a David Murray/Milford Graves duo record you might also look up on youtube.

As far as learning to do it and getting better at it, there's really no way to practice this kind of thing-- you have to do it. Since it is supposed to be free jazz, maybe you have some freedom to try some things, and see what works for you-- you don't have to stay totally within bebop vocabulary. Put the emphasis on listening to the people you're playing with rather than listening to yourself or figuring out what you're going to play.

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...hi alex, nice playing/drums/cymbals...if you don't mind, what type of ride are you using on your right (on your home page video feed)?...k istanbul?...weight?...stamp type?...sounds a bit like cobb's ride on kind of blue (at least to me)...thanks...

Last edited by singing drums; 04-10-2017 at 12:08 AM.
Reason: add a word

...hi alex, nice playing/drums/cymbals...if you don't mind, what type of ride are you using on your right (on your home page video feed)?...k istanbul?...weight?...stamp type?...sounds a bit like cobb's ride on kind of blue (at least to me)...thanks...

That makes sense, thank you. Textural phrasing as in Interstellar Space is what I am especially having a hard time dealing with since what I'm playing tends to sway towards becoming more random than free, not providing that feeling of time zone well enough. Stockholm sessions seem easier to follow maybe because I am more familiar with bop phrasing.

My understanding is that there isn't a specific practice method you can apply to improve free textural jazz playing and you just end up getting better at it the more you play with a group instead of practicing alone.

Unfortunately it also happens to be the slowest method as you can't focus on nailing the swing pattern or flam rudiments alone and see improvements in your playing directly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by toddbishop

Much of Ornette's earlier stuff, including this record, is what some now call "free bop"-- by which they usually mean bebop without normal form and harmonic structure. Most of what the drummers play is more or less normal bebop vocabulary, but since the music doesn't always adhere to the usual phrase lengths, and they're not soloing over the form of the tune, the drum stuff functions somewhat differently.

If you listen to Sunny Murray with Albert Ayler, or John Coltrane's Interstellar Space, or some of Paul Motian's playing, you'll hear another way of playing free, which doesn't have the time stated directly-- it's more textural, and the time is more of a zone than an exact pulse. There's a David Murray/Milford Graves duo record you might also look up on youtube.

As far as learning to do it and getting better at it, there's really no way to practice this kind of thing-- you have to do it. Since it is supposed to be free jazz, maybe you have some freedom to try some things, and see what works for you-- you don't have to stay totally within bebop vocabulary. Put the emphasis on listening to the people you're playing with rather than listening to yourself or figuring out what you're going to play.

For that more textural thing, just spend some time moving your limbs in an uncontrolled way-- do it for awhile, and your playing starts to organize itself-- things start to emerge that you couldn't have arrived at any other way. I think to do it effectively you should be aware that even just moving your limbs randomly, you're generating a kind of tempo feel/area/zone. Just listen to yourself and be aware that that is happening, and what you're doing will start making sense. You can also focus on certain areas of the drum set-- if you hang on one of the tom toms or just the cymbals for awhile, that will help create some longer phrases or sections. Repetition is also good-- whatever first random thing you do, keep doing it, and let it develop-- until you feel you have a good reason to do something else.

It also helps to understand that you're composing as you do this-- you're not just making random space junk. Realize that as you're screwing around making noise, you're creating a normal piece of music with a beginning, middle, and end.

Hope that helps. Search for some videos of Billy Mintz, Milford Graves, Rashied Ali, Paul Motian, Tom Rainey, or whoever, too-- you can get an idea of how this music tends to develop, and of what you can get away with.