To the WJJF students remarking on the effectiveness of the system: Do your instructors know what your real thoughts are on the style you are training? In particular to those with high grades: Why do you continue to train there if it doesn't work? Is it for the bragging rights of a high-grade? Shame on you.

More importantly, do you agree with what they have posted about the organization? That it's a money making scheme that does not do any live sparring? Here on bullshido, exorbitant fees + no resistance training = BS. If you don't agree with them, please post why, and refer to the organization itself, because the rest of your post, like Talia's, focuses on one person.

To the Bullshido members, in particular Das Moose: The remark from the woman was bang on the money. I'm sure Mr Rimmington wouldn't be pleased to hear his name bandied about, but I had no difficulty understanding the challenge for what it was - namely an invite for you to let your opinions be known to someone who works tirelessly for the furtherance of WJJF Worldwide. Das Moose, you're convinced the style is ****, yet you admit you wouldn't tackle Sensei Rimmington in any capacity (here you show some wisdom). If the style is **** and totally ineffective, his 7th dan grade shouldn't matter a jot because it's all a joke, self-promoted blah blah etc right? The fact he's a big man shouldn't come into it either. The argument is about the effectiveness of the WJJF syllabus for self defence. Mr Rimmington isn't in competition shape, but even just using syllabus techniques and none of the boxing/judo experience you assume he has, he'd still damage you severely and in a very short amount of time and the same would be true for most of the posters here. Some people are just dangerous and until you've watched someone built like a brick outhouse weighing probably in excess of 18 stone, most of it muscle, move quicker than your average featherweight boxer and do so with grace and power, you can't really comment.

None of this matters because we are talking about an organization, not a sole person. Like I said before, Bruce Lee was supposedly a good fighter, but that doesn't change the fact that a majority of JKD these days is a money making scheme.

Regardless, if you want to test out a system itself, and if you want to do it through a fight between two people (which doesn't make sense because neither person would completely represent either style), then at the very least you should equalize the factors so that you make the focus of the fight on the merits and weaknesses of each style, not each person. Having someone with decades more experience than you in MA, who outweighs you by a significant amount, only adds factors to the fight.

Besides, you can't pick and choose your opponents in a street fight. Saying you'll only fight someone in the same weight class, with your rules and tacking on a proviso that they can ONLY have trained WJJF for, or less than, 3 years is a jest surely? Again, picking a fight you know you can probably win? I can think of 5 students off the top off my head that match your criteria that could hurt you very badly, assuming it was a test of the effectiveness of the system in self defence and not the effectiveness of the system for winning grappling tournaments under grappling tournament rules.

Again, I don't think a one v one would prove much, but if you are going to do it, to keep the focus on the style and organization (since that is what is coming under scrutiny on this thread), you should try and equalize all other factors.

The nature of affiliation is such that there are obviously a lot of clubs where standards are slack. People want to be under the WJJF umbrella to give them some credibility, but Soke Clarke can't vet everyone and personally oversee them all. As mentioned his health isn't the best and his time is limited also.

This is no excuse. If sheer numbers cause a decline in the system or training of it, then you are doing a disservice to your art. If schools aren't responsible enough to pump out decent fighters and keep standards high, they don't deserve to be in the organization.

There's some intelligent people here and I think it's a crying shame that most of you seem to spend lots of time being the self-promoted champions of the misled masses, exposing the McDojo's for what they are etc. Most people don't care, most people don't even know of the existence of this site. Those that do are probably already clued up enough to know the real deal from the sham.

Actually this site has been articled in martial arts publications, it's existence is widely known amongst internet martial arts forums. There's too much crap out there in MA, too many people who are willing to take your money and teach you garbage that will get you killed in a fight. Most of the members (at least the non trolling, non bandwagon people) here have been caught in a McDojo or Bullshido and have suffered for it. If we can help even just one person avoid that, then I'd say we're pretty valuable to the MA community.

Yes the system is lacking in some areas, randori on a regular basis would be great, but it's not the be all and end all of training just because that is true of yourselves. Training for competition isn't the same as training for the street. It has parallels and usefulness yes, but most of the time it is down to attitude.

Completely irrelevant. Street vs competition is not the issue here, because you need live resisting methods for both. And it is alledged, and confirmed by members of your organization, that WJJF does not offer this. Don't turn this into a "street deadly" discussion, because according to these members of your organization, you don't provide enough quality training for either. Please address those points, not some circular argument.

I've seen pro and amateur boxers and kickboxers get schooled in brawls by street toughs with next to no formal training. All their alive training availed them nothing.

It happens. Alive training is no guarantee and it doesn't make you invincible. But can you imagine what would happen if all the training you had was against compliant partners in a prearranged setting? You keep talking about not getting to choose your opponents. By the same token you don't get to choose someone who will be your training partner, who will stop before hurting you and giving you the opening to do your technique in a prearranged sequence.

This thread is not about Rimington, or about Das vs whoever, or street vs sport - we have allegations against your organization, and we'd like to see some discussion on that, not a post chock filled with excuses and random references to age old irrelevant discussion.

I train WJJF and I'm proud of it. Yes the system is lacking in some areas, randori on a regular basis would be great, but it's not the be all and end all of training just because that is true of yourselves. Training for competition isn't the same as training for the street. It has parallels and usefulness yes, but most of the time it is down to attitude. I've seen pro and amateur boxers and kickboxers get schooled in brawls by street toughs with next to no formal training. All their alive training availed them nothing. Again, you don't get to choose your opponents when something kicks off. For the average bloke swinging a haymaker at your head, our Ju-Jitsu is fine. When faced with someone more dangerous than that, you were in trouble anyway. Sorry about the formatting if this doesn't get paragraphed, having to post through a proxy at work.

Unless you are a sock puppet for Talia, you don't know what she really meant.

You haven't seen anyone sport trained get their ass kicked.
Same thing applies to you:

1) Paragraphs.
2) Speak for yourself.

Oh and the street is a saving face comment, It is stupid. If it can't work in the ring it can't work on the street. Your damn dojo is just as safe as the ring, you aren't getting any more realistic training.

Iscariot pretty much made my points for me, but I'll just rephrase them -

I would actualy be happy to fight Remington except for the fact that you WJJF guys would probably see someone who has 20 decades of WJJF beating a much smaller guy who has 1 year of BJJ and a few months of Muay Thai as proof of your badassness. EDIT: That sounds a bit too much like I think he'd win. What I'm saying is, the only way he could win is through non WJJF training.

The simple fact is, most of the TMA guys I know who have been training for that long picked up some boxing along the way, and pretty much all of them picked up some Judo along the way.

As for the size issue - if you really think size doesn't matter you're betraying your ignorance. There are several guys at my BJJ club who would readily admit I am far better technically than them, but they are so much bigger than me that they can just crush me. Does that mean BJJ doesnt work? Of course not.

The third thing is - I had a long think about what I was actually prepared to do. I, personally will fight a WJJF guy who fulfills the criteria I set out. Hell, try bending the rules a bit, I might fight him anyway. But I was serious. I have a car, I can probably scrape together the necessary money given a few weeks, I have gloves, shorts, a cup and a gumshield. I am completely serious.

I have trained WJJF for about 11 years. The club i have been in is one of best I know and have trained at.
We've gone past the syllabus and applied the techniques to real situations.
Im ready to move on in another martial arts, but not until i can drive :D

I have trained WJJF for about 11 years. The club i have been in is one of best I know and have trained at.
We've gone past the syllabus and applied the techniques to real situations.
Im ready to move on in another martial arts, but not until i can drive :D

They dropped you on your head a lot and now you're retarded aren't you?

I have trained WJJF for about 11 years. The club i have been in is one of best I know and have trained at.
We've gone past the syllabus and applied the techniques to real situations.
Im ready to move on in another martial arts, but not until i can drive :D

One of the nice things about being old is that you know where all the bodies are buried.

Robert Clarke was exposed years ago as a total fraud. The Japanese papers were forged, there is no governing body in Japan that he claimed.

The major press in England nailed him very well, Black Belt ran it. Bottom line, total Bullshido, no different than Juko-lie or Porters group.

Almost all of these clubs have a very tough guy on hand to kick ass if need be. Ask Chris Herzog sometime about his experience with that. He will tell you it had nothing to do with what he was learning at the school, and everything to do with what he was learning as bouncer every night....

these guys eventually find a real school, as Chris did, and when they leave, the real fighter leaves with them.

I don't think there's anything to continue to debate. MMA etc is staggeringly effective at winning competitions and there is no denying that that experience and training strategy will carry over well to a self-defence scenario against an un-trained opponent. However, a friend pointed me to this site and this thread in particular and it's amazing what I've seen here so far. Trash-talking styles and offering to fight people to prove some silly one-upmanship point is juvenile and stupid. The WJJF has some very good martial artists. Yes, there are a few that aren't up to much and obviously that guy in that video, who no-one has proven to any satisfaction that he was a WJJF student, was one of them. I'll issue an open challenge to anyone that feels they have the cajones to take it up. If you're in the UK, in particular the North Wales/Merseyside area, browse to http://www.ju-jitsu.uk.com/ and pick one of the classes taught by Mr Simon Rimmington. Turn up and introduce yourself to him. You can't miss him, his photograph and videos are all over that site. Tell him exactly what most of you have said in this thread - namely that WJJF is crap and WJJF can't fight and offer to prove yourself right there and then. Make sure your life insurance is up to date and you've said goodbye to any loved ones prior to this visit, because that man will destroy 99% of the wannabes I see frequenting this site, including the so-called experienced players. That's the truth. Considering you place great store in putting up or shutting up, it shouldn't be too much of a stretch. If someone does pony up, I'll look forward to hearing about your injuries in class and we can all have a giggle at www.bullshido.net.

Be very careful what you wish for... I am saying Robert Clarke was and is a fake, a phony, a fraud and a liar. Anyone who can read on your side of the pond knows that. Anyone who got rank from him, and was/is close to him, is either ignorant or in on it, take your pick.

I am more than willing to back that up to any member of the groups satisfaction... in any manner they wish.

But you might want to look him up in a search in the Mirror or the Sun before anyone else does....