So I'm currently organizing a chart of all the gods in Realmspace updated to 5e post-Second Sundering (with some gap filling based on educated guesswork).

In the course of my research, I've just spotted mention of a large temple dedicated to the Greek god Priapus on one of the islands of Wa in the Kara-Tur continental region.

~ page 158 ADnD Kara-Tur -- in the Isle of Ferando entry

I find this a bit confounding and wonder how many of the greco-roman gods have established a foothold on Toril. Perhaps Priapus is just an outlier, or perhaps the Greco-Roman pantheon has a strong presence somewhere on Toril...

What if there's a series of ancient Greek style city-states in easternmost Kara-Tur? What if they've established themselves on Osse?

Hmm...

EDIT: Come to think of it, Tyche [origin of Tymora/Beshaba] was originally of the Greco-Roman pantheon.

In the course of my research, I've just spotted mention of a large temple dedicated to the Greek god Priapus on one of the islands of Wa in the Kara-Tur continental region.

~ page 158 ADnD Kara-Tur -- in the Isle of Ferando entry

Hmm...

EDIT: Come to think of it, Tyche [origin of Tymora/Beshaba] was originally of the Greco-Roman pantheon.

Being a Japan born Navy Brat, I'm 95% sure this was one of the writers knowing about the Kanamara Matsuri. Japan is a wonderful and strange little nation, and riding around on a 30ft wooden phallus or having a penis shaped lolly pop is something that goes on while the proper folk are enjoying the Cherry Blossoms.

As to the Greek Pantheon in Toril, Tyche is the most obvious, I will also throw out Apollo and Aphrodite have most likely been there from the beginning, they have just 'gone native'. ;)

Huh. I never noticed that temple of Priapus (of course, I didn't know who Priapus was, either). But Chauntea, or "Chantee", also has a suppressed cult following in Wa, so there's clearly been some western influence.

-I often wonder why stuff like that was done. It clearly doesn't fit with everything else thematically and we don't have any real explanation in any text. If there were explanations, it'd be fine and cool, but why add things that don't make too much sense without any follow up?

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

-I often wonder why stuff like that was done. It clearly doesn't fit with everything else thematically and we don't have any real explanation in any text. If there were explanations, it'd be fine and cool, but why add things that don't make too much sense without any follow up?

Well, the Bloodstone modules used St. Dionysus and had Greek heroes as its 100th-level PCs, before they were grafted onto the Realms. I imagine Salvatore used more, and only St. Dionysus and Poseidon escaped the cut. Ditto the Desert of Desolation modules (though it depends on which version you look at). In any case, the setting has apparently always been meant to have these small gods and they add plothooks just by being inexplicable and alien. Just imagine some Kara-Turan adventurers exploring this temple of Priapus.

I personally recommend that the references to Priapus and Poseidon be treated as placeholder names in drafting that weren't corrected, like the Moorcock names for the elemental gods that survived in the Old Gray Box's text, rather than canon in-Realms deities. Treating every such reference the way the uncorrected Tyche reference in the OGB was later handled gets baroque. And the Celestial Bureaucracy's Million Officials clearly have room for a Priapus-like god.

-I often wonder why stuff like that was done. It clearly doesn't fit with everything else thematically and we don't have any real explanation in any text. If there were explanations, it'd be fine and cool, but why add things that don't make too much sense without any follow up?

When was the Bloodstone Lands material released (from 1987 to 1989)? Just a few years after Desert of Desolation was incorporated into the realms (1987), which is also to say RIGHT as the realms was being developed. That product introduced a lot of other pantheons, including the Greek one. So, at the outset, FR was being developed by writers who weren't familiar intimately with the FR gods. Hindsight is always 20/20, and I'd bet many of these developers never even had much face time with each other.

Honestly, I kind of like the idea that we have all these other pantheons that used to exist, especially in the far flung areas of the realms. I very much picture the Shining South, Old Empires, and Utter East as areas that should have odd religions (and they do... look at Mulhorand and Unther... look at the Adama religion...look at the Chultan Pantheon... look at Rashemen with its 3 goddesses who may or may not be Faerunian goddesses, after all its not the Rashemi who are saying "its a Faerunian deity under another name".... and personally I'd rather that the Utter East have a mix of gods from various earth religions of similar bent that Faerunian people SAY are Faerunian now).

Basically, as I see it, the Faerunian pantheon was working their way south strangling other religions and trying to push those gods out for more power. Some of the pantheons they'd incorporate individuals from (i.e. Assuran, Bast, etc...), whereas others they'd try to kick them out. Others the gods might combine or one take over (i.e. Talos/Bhaelros). The Jhaamdathi, Yuir, Calishite, and Talfiric pantheons may have even had prime bound deities ON Toril similar to how Mielikki, Eldath, Gwaeron, Valkur, Siamorphe, etc... were still prime plane bound prior to the removal of the Imaskari God Barrier after the time of troubles (not saying those are linked, but....). So, for all we know, Poseidon had some kind of manifestation and it died during the ToT and Valkur took over his portfolio, just as an example. Bhaelros may have been a primordial who was killed by Talos or Kozah. Felidae may have been an interloping goddess from Mystara who was subsumed by Bast. Prior to the ToT, there may have been a lot more "deities" who were prime bound, but knowledge of this was kept relatively well hidden, and their "priests" may have resembled the idea of warlocks more than gods with clerics (or witch doctors with a mix of healing and arcane powers). They may have resembled the idea of binders, but instead of having to chuck out and find a new vestige every time you level, you gain a stronger link to the god as you level.

BTW, we tend to think that the Netherese Pantheon became the Faerunian Pantheon. However, if you look, so many of the Netherese pantheons are also written up as "this is actually X modern god". The only "survivors" are Selune, Shar, Jergal and Moander... and two of those are relegated to lesser power levels now. Targus, Tyche, Jannath, Mystryl, Amauanator, Kozah.... these are all known "under different names now". Therefore some of the gods of Talfir, Jhaamdath, Yuir, etc... may have survived into the Faerunian Pantheon and supplanted some of those other gods.

BTW, on the concept of the original post.... we do have some hints in original Ed works that Sune equals Venus. If we also have Dionysus in the past, Priapus is their love child. If similar to the Mulan gods, the Greco-Roman gods came to Faerun via some means to bypass the Imaskari gods barrier.... that may explain his appearance in Kara-Tur as the Imaskari diaspora had some involvement with the eastern lands, and we know that there is a temple in the Raurin desert dedicated to Prometheus. Now, I'm not saying they would have come over at the same time. I'm not saying they would have even come over in the same way. But it opens up some interesting options to write up this concept that even works with places like Chessenta that seem to have some weird Greek influence.

Planescape describes Mount Olympus as a sort of planar "construct" which connects certain places on certain planes with many worlds - of course all worlds which recognize deities (or titans, monsters, etc) from the Olympian pantheon.

Does Olympus have any direct "place" where it connects with the Realms?

FWIW, my impression is that the Realms is a place where things (can) come together -- an open system, rather than a closed one. I'd bet money that Ed approved of other gods showing up, especially in specific places/times, even if those appearances weren't always done in the way he would have done them. (Ed being, after all, a storyteller who rarely leaves us looking for reasons.) The explanation/reason for it being done is in the nature of the Realms. All just my reading into it, of course.

To the original post I would say many gods from many pantheons make appearances, and they are all outliers. Several of Ed's original crew of gods were adopted from Deities & Demigods -- Sune = Aphrodite I think, for instance -- but his intent was to give their Realms versions a Realmsian feel: to "make them his own." I believe that he or THO have said that in some cases that didn't happen for a while, or at all, because TSR & WotC have kept him busy with other things. Which I read to mean that even in the cases where deities were adopted from Earth's mythology, they weren't just Earth's deities in the Realms... leaving us free to color them as we choose in our own campaigns, which I think was Ed's intent for the whole caboodle including his "made them myself" gods.

Of course later authors may have had different intentions, but I'm inclined to refit their material to the original nature of the Realms, rather than second-guess the world based on some occasionally questionable design decisions that came later on.

Disclosure: while I'm personally disappointed in the copying of Earth's cultures into the Realms (Kara-Tur, Zakhara, the Old Empires to some extent) I'm in awe of the amount and awesomeness of work put forth by some of those authors (David Cook for example, who after creating Kara-Tur also brought us Planescape, another of my favorite campaign expansion ideas) so I think it's valuable to view later work through the lenses of the original philosophy and the possibility that the more decisions were made by corporate folks who just don't know what's up.

To the original post I would say many gods from many pantheons make appearances, and they are all outliers. Several of Ed's original crew of gods were adopted from Deities & Demigods -- Sune = Aphrodite I think, for instance -- but his intent was to give their Realms versions a Realmsian feel: to "make them his own." I believe that he or THO have said that in some cases that didn't happen for a while, or at all, because TSR & WotC have kept him busy with other things. Which I read to mean that even in the cases where deities were adopted from Earth's mythology, they weren't just Earth's deities in the Realms... leaving us free to color them as we choose in our own campaigns, which I think was Ed's intent for the whole caboodle including his "made them myself" gods.

Of course later authors may have had different intentions, but I'm inclined to refit their material to the original nature of the Realms, rather than second-guess the world based on some occasionally questionable design decisions that came later on.

Disclosure: while I'm personally disappointed in the copying of Earth's cultures into the Realms (Kara-Tur, Zakhara, the Old Empires to some extent) I'm in awe of the amount and awesomeness of work put forth by some of those authors (David Cook for example, who after creating Kara-Tur also brought us Planescape, another of my favorite campaign expansion ideas) so I think it's valuable to view later work through the lenses of the original philosophy and the possibility that the more decisions were made by corporate folks who just don't know what's up.

(Can I get a for the length of that last sentence?)

I'd go so far as to say that other than being Arabian in look, Zakhara shares very little with our world's history. Though I've never run anything there, and when it came out I didn't have the funds to buy anything, it has become one of my favorite reads. It is no wonder to me that one of its main authors has gone on to found his own gaming company.

Kara-Tur was another place I saw little of, and in fact only started discovering it heavily in say the last 5 years. I will agree though in that certain areas I can easily place the real world equivalent. Still, its amazingly well done.

Now, Maztica... so much a copy it hurt. Not that the place can't be turned into something mind you. I will give Steven Schend some props though for trying to change the landscape afterward though.

A dragon in the Drizzt books is known by the name Hephaestus, after an obscure Blacksmith deity.

Hephaestus is far from an Obscure deity, he is an Olympian and Worship across much of the world, even before the Hellenistic era he was worship by many peoples. He was heavily worshipped in Athens, Lemnos, Rome, ect...

Hephaestus was also heavily sycronized with other deities, Greek Mythology directly says he is Ptah in the,Typhon Myths, Kothar, a Canaanite deity, linked heavily to Ptah and Hephaestus, his home is said originally to be in Crete and later Eygpt. He is also linked to being the Hititte God Hasameli.

This Sycronism goes to 11 in Neoplatonism where I believe Proclus says he is part of the Sublunar Demiurge.

Heck Hephaestus was even depicted in a Disney movie!

For the sake of transparency I am a worshipped of Hephaestus in RL, I even wear a Hephaestus pendant 24/7. I look heavily into Hephaestian mythology, Neoplatianism, and Gods linked heavily to Hephaestus. I hand built a shrine to him. I only share that just so you have context. I'm not offended or anything.

quote:A dragon in the Drizzt books is known by the name Hephaestus, after an obscure Blacksmith deity.

I'm guessing this was meant as sarcasm.

We live in a society which generally disdains crafts, arts, and engineering unless they are applied to the sorts of artifice which bring fame and celebrity.

But every deific pantheon (like any other large organization) has to employ some sort of engineer/technician who's good at building and fixing all their expensive stuff. I think Hephaestus is arguably the most well-known (and thus arguably the most accomplished) of these.

quote:A dragon in the Drizzt books is known by the name Hephaestus, after an obscure Blacksmith deity.

I'm guessing this was meant as sarcasm.

We live in a society which generally disdains crafts, arts, and engineering unless they are applied to the sorts of artifice which bring fame and celebrity.

But every deific pantheon (like any other large organization) has to employ some sort of engineer/technician who's good at building and fixing all their expensive stuff. I think Hephaestus is arguably the most well-known (and thus arguably the most accomplished) of these.

Oh my bad then. Sarcasm is hard to tell on the internet. It's not a big deal either way.

To the original post I would say many gods from many pantheons make appearances, and they are all outliers. Several of Ed's original crew of gods were adopted from Deities & Demigods -- Sune = Aphrodite I think, for instance -- but his intent was to give their Realms versions a Realmsian feel: to "make them his own." I believe that he or THO have said that in some cases that didn't happen for a while, or at all, because TSR & WotC have kept him busy with other things. Which I read to mean that even in the cases where deities were adopted from Earth's mythology, they weren't just Earth's deities in the Realms... leaving us free to color them as we choose in our own campaigns, which I think was Ed's intent for the whole caboodle including his "made them myself" gods.

Of course later authors may have had different intentions, but I'm inclined to refit their material to the original nature of the Realms, rather than second-guess the world based on some occasionally questionable design decisions that came later on.

Disclosure: while I'm personally disappointed in the copying of Earth's cultures into the Realms (Kara-Tur, Zakhara, the Old Empires to some extent) I'm in awe of the amount and awesomeness of work put forth by some of those authors (David Cook for example, who after creating Kara-Tur also brought us Planescape, another of my favorite campaign expansion ideas) so I think it's valuable to view later work through the lenses of the original philosophy and the possibility that the more decisions were made by corporate folks who just don't know what's up.

(Can I get a for the length of that last sentence?)

I'd go so far as to say that other than being Arabian in look, Zakhara shares very little with our world's history. Though I've never run anything there, and when it came out I didn't have the funds to buy anything, it has become one of my favorite reads. It is no wonder to me that one of its main authors has gone on to found his own gaming company.

Kara-Tur was another place I saw little of, and in fact only started discovering it heavily in say the last 5 years. I will agree though in that certain areas I can easily place the real world equivalent. Still, its amazingly well done.

Now, Maztica... so much a copy it hurt. Not that the place can't be turned into something mind you. I will give Steven Schend some props though for trying to change the landscape afterward though.

Well 4e and 5e sure as heck changed it, Maztica was transported to a weaveless/godless world Abeir and just came back in Chaotic fashion. Now Tabaxi (race not tribe) who worship the Catlord now are fleeing Maztica for Faerun.

I'll point out that Osiris (the actual Greek name for the God, the Egyptian name is Azar), Isis (again the Greek name for the Egyptian Goddess Aset, Bastet (her Greek name is Ailuros, but conceptually FR Bastet is inspired by the Grecoroman understanding of Bastet as a sex Goddess, which is largely thanks to a ancient Greek Historian, although this view of Bast who was originallly a terrifying Lion War Goddess of Lower Egypt, became dominate during the Late Period of Egypt, and during the Greek Ptolemy Dynasty of Egypt and the Roman Empire, to the point where Scion 2e conciders Bast and Bastet two seperate Gods). That is why I look at the Mulhorand Pantheon as Grecoegyptian not pure Egyptian. Even Set being seen as evil was't until after the Caanite Dynasties had been over thrown, his name got linked to theirs because they worship him as an aspect of their own God Baal).

So attaching some Greek Gods to FR, like Desert of Desolation does, makes sense, if you view FR as Ptolemy Egyptian instead of older Egyptian. The Mulhorand Pantheon did functionally absord Ishtar and Mask (pure FR deity). Although ancient Egypt did have a God of thieves I believe.

Though I've never run anything there, and when it came out I didn't have the funds to buy anything, it has become one of my favorite reads. It is no wonder to me that one of its main authors has gone on to found his own gaming company.

Agreed 100% -- the creativity wasn't in short supply. I'm just disappointed when it's compelled to echo Earth, especially major civilizations.

So attaching some Greek Gods to FR, like Desert of Desolation does, makes sense, if you view FR as Ptolemy Egyptian instead of older Egyptian. The Mulhorand Pantheon did functionally absord Ishtar and Mask (pure FR deity). Although ancient Egypt did have a God of thieves I believe.

Cool! I like mythology, but I haven't done any deep research into it so I appreciate the informed perspective.

(Ed based Mask on Hermes -- I think this is a good example of how he *meant* for all of his adoptions to go... by 3e, Mask looked nothing like any Hermes I'd read about in school.)

So attaching some Greek Gods to FR, like Desert of Desolation does, makes sense, if you view FR as Ptolemy Egyptian instead of older Egyptian. The Mulhorand Pantheon did functionally absord Ishtar and Mask (pure FR deity). Although ancient Egypt did have a God of thieves I believe.

Cool! I like mythology, but I haven't done any deep research into it so I appreciate the informed perspective.

(Ed based Mask on Hermes -- I think this is a good example of how he *meant* for all of his adoptions to go... by 3e, Mask looked nothing like any Hermes I'd read about in school.)

Mask seems to have drifted very far from that now. The current Mask is a mix of the Old Mask and Drasek Riven, whose influence has tempered Mask's evil side, Mask is no linger an evil God.

When was the Bloodstone Lands material released (from 1987 to 1989)? Just a few years after Desert of Desolation was incorporated into the realms (1987), which is also to say RIGHT as the realms was being developed. That product introduced a lot of other pantheons, including the Greek one. So, at the outset, FR was being developed by writers who weren't familiar intimately with the FR gods. Hindsight is always 20/20, and I'd bet many of these developers never even had much face time with each other.

-I meant it more in the sense of "Hmm, let's put Greek deities in Kara-Tur, the Eastern Realms." Given the source material they are writing, there's obvious dissonance.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

When was the Bloodstone Lands material released (from 1987 to 1989)? Just a few years after Desert of Desolation was incorporated into the realms (1987), which is also to say RIGHT as the realms was being developed. That product introduced a lot of other pantheons, including the Greek one. So, at the outset, FR was being developed by writers who weren't familiar intimately with the FR gods. Hindsight is always 20/20, and I'd bet many of these developers never even had much face time with each other.

-I meant it more in the sense of "Hmm, let's put Greek deities in Kara-Tur, the Eastern Realms." Given the source material they are writing, there's obvious dissonance.

Actually Greek Gods in Asia is not as weird as you'd think. During the Hellenistic era in the Grecobactrian Kingdom, the Grecoindian Kingdom, and the Indo-Scythian Kingdoms there was mixing of the Greek Religion and Buddhism.

This lead to some Greek deities finding a place in more Thiestic forms of Buddhism.

Greek Buddhist Monks then went to places like China spreading Buddhism.

A dragon in the Drizzt books is known by the name Hephaestus, after an obscure Blacksmith deity.

Hephaestus is far from an Obscure deity, he is an Olympian and Worship across much of the world, even before the Hellenistic era he was worship by many peoples. He was heavily worshipped in Athens, Lemnos, Rome, ect...

I think the "obscure" status of Hephaestus, is just that he is obscure in the Realms.

It's possible Hephaestus is a name Gond used, as Ed based Gond on Hephaestus.

Another possibility is that Hephaestus he existed a long time ago but was subsumed, or absorbed, or merged with or into Gond over time.

quote:Originally posted by Gyor

Bastet (her Greek name is Ailuros, but conceptually FR Bastet is inspired by the Grecoroman understanding of Bastet as a sex Goddess, which is largely thanks to a ancient Greek Historian, although this view of Bast who was originally a terrifying Lion War Goddess of Lower Egypt, became dominate during the Late Period of Egypt, and during the Greek Ptolemy Dynasty of Egypt and the Roman Empire, to the point where Scion 2e conciders Bast and Bastet two seperate Gods). That is why I look at the Mulhorand Pantheon as Grecoegyptian not pure Egyptian.

Actually, Bast in Faerun, came through a similar transformation, from a war goddess and Anhur's lieutenant, to becoming a lust goddess as Sharess, after subsuming Felidae, and merging with Zandilar.

Fun fact though, "Sharess" was originally conceived and described as a lust based, more benevolent aspect of Shar.

From the Forgotten Realms 1e Cyclopedia:

quote:Sharess, a CG aspect of Shar worshipped in Calimshan, Waterdeep,and by idle rich or decadents allover the Realms. Sharess is a goddess of lust, free love, and sensualfulfillment, and is worshipped inprolonged fests with scentedbaths, music, good food, dancing,and other gratifications. Her symbol is a image or representation offemale lips, carved traditionallyfrom amber or ruby, and worn atwrist and ankle on thin goldchains.

This was latter referenced how Shar corrupted Sharess/Bast, and nearly absorbed her, before she was rescued by Sune, during the Time of Troubles.

I can guess they were in the process of merging/Sharess being subsumed.