I agree that this story is a microcosm of life under the socialist mindset. Reminds me of the infamous Kitty Genovese murder decades ago: don't get involved and "too bad, so sad!"

There is no heart and soul in socialism. We are only statistics to be dealt and manipulated by a souless bunker inhabited by wonks looking at flow charts, Power-Point presentations, and actuarial tables that relieve them of their humanity.

We "HOPE" they "CHANGE" and the beat goes on...Reminds me of the famous Seinfeld show and the soup nazi- "No soup for you!"

"Couldn't you say this is what the firefighters' attitude would have been if they had let people go into the fire?"

First, it was the cops, not the firemen. Second, the people wanted to attempt the rescue and were physically turned away. Third, the victims were screaming at the window when this happened, not passed out on the floor somewhere inside.

If I want to risk my life in an attempt to save another, nobody had better try to restrain me. It's my life and my decision.

Well, I wasn't at the fire. But I think it's natural to recoil from this story in horror.

It's possible that the death toll would have been considerably higher if the police allowed people to go in. Then they'd be vilified for that.

Well, maybe. But at least here, likely not. Those attempting to save the family would be heroes, and esp. if they didn't make it.

You are presupposing that part of a cop's job is to protect people from themselves, even if that means that other innocents die as a result. And maybe from a liberal mindset, it is. The "nanny state" and all that. But personally, I don't think so. Rather, I see their primary job as enforcing laws.

Just reading The Unthinkable - Who Survives When Disaster Strikes - And Why. Short summary - you want to see who will rescue you, look in the mirror. The police will fill out a report on the terrible thing that happened to you, but there aren't enough of them to respond in real time to your emergency unless, through unlikely coincidence, they are there when it goes down.Have a plan to get out of your house.Have a plan to get out of your car.Have a plan to get out of your hotel.Have a plan to get out of your office.Have a plan, because when the emergency happens, you will become 'functionally retarded'.

As for the situation in the article, I'll bet one or more of the rescuers would have risked personal injury - with lower risk of getting burned - trying to catch a kid dropped out of the window the Mrs. was yelling from. The cops seem 'functionally retarded' not to have allowed at least that option.

That being said, it's an important principle in pretty much all first-responder training to make sure you don't convert yourself into one of the victims. I'm certainly not in favor of the police enforcing this on the rest of us, however.

The type of equiptment in use by firefighters at the scene is the question to be answered. The training and equiptment at a fire department in Atlanta Ga could have saved this family easily. But then a socialist fire service may have had another set of rules to avoid wasting money on citizens.

Another thought is that a high % of firefighters are former military in our area. The chance to be involved in care of expensive machinery and keeping training and equiptment ready to fight fires keeps their military instincts alive. Many are also currently serving in National Guard units. I doubt that is the case in these English towns.

If the State tries to tell you that you can't attempt to save your burning neighbors and is preventing you from doing so with police force, you should have the means to stand up to them with force of your own.

A useful counterpoint is the heroic cop who took down the psycho in the North Carolina nursing home. He didn't have to do that, but he was the only one who could stop it.

Cops aren't all bad.

I think the police were trying to stop further loss of life. That is part of their job. Was it the right decision? I don't know. No way to know. But a result where 6 people died instead of 3 wouldn't be better, except maybe we'd feel better about it. Feeling isn't the same as burning to death. We should keep that in mind.

Seems to me the proper procedure for the police, since they were the best trained personnel on the scene would be organizing and leading the rescue effort until the fire department arrived to take over.

Get used to it, America, you voted for exactly this kind of bullshit, and you're going to get it good and hard.

Sounds like the cops made the right call. Neighbors couldn't put a ladder up for the screaming woman because they were driven off by flames enveloping the whole 1st floor, and cops were restraining people caught up in emotion from rushing into the 1st floor flames.

People do need restraint because they do not think clearly in many cases. If no trained professionals are around, "fools are free to rush in", but if they are around - they have a duty to block the public from hazarding themselves.

This is true in America, too. Fire scenes are secured from civilians, and people that disobey Fire scene commanders or cops in trying to hazard themselves or egging on others to do so have been tackled, handcuffed, and arrested. When they fail to stop people, like the 3 idiot rescuers killed trying to retrieve the dead bodies of Utah coal miners for "Closure!"- officials are reprimanded or fired.

Madison Man and JAC made sensible comments.

traditionalguy said... The type of equiptment in use by firefighters at the scene is the question to be answered. The training and equiptment at a fire department in Atlanta Ga could have saved this family easily. But then a socialist fire service may have had another set of rules to avoid wasting money on citizens.

That is fairly ignorant. The US military, many fire departments in the US, inc my volunteer one use English equipment. Angus Foam dispensers, Scott AirPac components, some Nomex gear. The Brits are professional, well-trained.And you evidently didn't even read the article. It wasn't the firefighters equipment that was the issue, they were simply further away from the fire scene than neighbors or cops. Lots of people in the Atlanta area die in fires. Claiming if they had magically been transported to the UK they "could have saved that family easily" with their equipment and training' is specious nonsense.

Freeman - "If the State tries to tell you that you can't attempt to save your burning neighbors and is preventing you from doing so with police force, you should have the means to stand up to them with force of your own."

You're not really saying the people who were being held back should have had the right to shoot the police officers are you?

Without being at the scene it's impossible to know whether the family could have been saved or not, but if the neighbors had ladders then there was perhaps a chance. The picture posted with the article shows brick exterior walls that remain intact, and I can see a window that appears to be accessible from the roof of an attached building of some sort. Certainly the neighbors thought they could get close enough to the house to catch a thrown or falling child, and it's hard to see why the police didn't let them try, or for that matter why they weren't themselves trying to coax the the occupants into jumping and then trying to catch them or break their fall as they jumped.

If there ever were any hominid species where the males did not try to rescue females and children that need saving, they went extinct long ago.

These police may have made the correct call. But still there are suspicions about why a decision not to attempt a rescue was so quickly made. The costs of 4 burned family members, plus possible burns on 2+ rescuers, all under treatment with later corrective surgery, could easily be$30,000,000, while the costs of 4 dead people is little or nothing. Either this government bureau puts people first or money first. Now let me think quickly.

I want to know why the civilians who wanted to help obeyed the police. I thought that the police in Merrie Olde England had been disarmed? What, were the citizens afraid that they'd be spotted by one of the 485,385,293 surveillance cameras in Airstrip One?

Those cops weren't armed, right? Not trained for rescue either. But they get there first and stop others from helping. I'm thinking, get rid of the cops and turn their budgets over to the local FDs. Give 'em badges and nightsticks if you ever want to arrest someone.

And obviously give 'em more gear. In New York, you call 911 for a shooting or other altercation, in my experience FDNY gets there first before EMS or the cops.

Don't worry, C4, nobody wants to save you, so feel free to smoke in bed. I refuse to believe you are a volunteer anything although your information is correct on the rescue gear; you're not one to value anything over his own skin.

Are you a family man, Ced? Wife, kids? What would you do if you came back from a late night milk run and saw the bobbies around your own house, burning?

" If no trained professionals are around, "fools are free to rush in", but if they are around - they have a duty to block the public from hazarding themselves."

Screw that.And shame on those policemen; what a waste of Y chromosomes

Looks like the British lost the best of their men in WW2, just like the French lost theirs in WW1, and the whining fearful boys that remain weren't adult enough to teach anything to their sons and so on. Now they just haven't got what it takes (though I hear that's untrue of the soldiers around Iraq).

The UK has already been emasculated. This country is becoming a close second. Are these the acts of cowards or professionals trained in cowardice and to foist it onto the populace?

If I saw something like this happening, I would do everything in my power to help. That's just me and to know that children were inside makes even that more urgent and torturous. If a cop tried to stop me from going inside to save somebody there would be hell to pay and at that point consequence be damned. Just infuriating to read a story like that.

@Methedras, I think you're saying the same point I made earlier. If you're an adult male homo sapiens then it's in our genetic material to try to rescue women and children. That's helped our species survive, and that's why we view the person who can't be bothered to get involved with such contempt. If it wasn't a survival trait, then we'd be wired differently.

Earlier, Daily Mail had a somewhat derisive article about a palatial 3 million pound fire services headquarters designed by Prince Charles for his model community in Poundbury in the county of Dorset. Looking up Dorset's particulars, they have 26 fire stations serving 708,000 over an area of 2653 square kilometers.

If these communities are typical for the United States and England, then it would seem each fire station covers a larger territory and serves more people in England.

The article doesn't indicate the response time for the fire brigade, nor does the public incident report, so hard to know for certain if distance traveled mattered in this case.

Palladian said... "Cedarford said...Sounds like the cops made the right call."Cedarford just likes the mental images of people burning up in ovens. Remember, you can't spell N-A-Z-I without Sozialistische!

Palladian takes a break from gargling the salami of some homeless guy he slipped a 20 to to engage in a little gratuitous reducio ad Hitlerum.

"Slurp, slurp, slurp. Pop!

Hey, did I ever tell you, Lucious, that because of my superior snark and superiority I nail good-looking Yale boys"

Whatevah, fag-bitch. You is on your knees in a back alley in New Haven looking fo'h cream.! Now shutupp and suck or I's charging you 4 40-oz Colts extra 'top of Jackson...and maybes I should beat Benjamins out o' your faggy ass!

(Faster, from Palladian...) Slurp, smack, slurp, slurp, drool kiss, sucksucksucksuck..________________XWL - Interesting data. Keep in mind that the UK does not operate on the "whatever government wants to spend!" model of the US. So if they can spend half of what we do per capita on firefighters and achieve equivalent low levels of death and property damage and EMS - that is a good thing for them. Same with the Japanese spending 40% of what we do per student and graduating far more HS grads as a percentage and those graduating a full grade or two higher in education than the graduating Americans from our sorry, overstaffed and overpaid HS's.___________Nichevo - You are talking - but you are simply flapping your gums ignorant of volunteer or professional FD protocols on rescue._______Just a point of reference, Palladian..How many times have you let a 14-19 year old student into your ass? Or homeless guy for money?

Don't worry - as a teacher you know the line between child molestation and teacher Pederasty is age 13. And you operate a sort of reverse soup kitchen for the homeless. Bravo for paying Bums to give you their soup, buddy!

I don't think it would come to that. (Only could if the police were willing to shoot people to keep them from making a rescue attempt, and I can't see them being willing to do that.) But draw on them and order them out of the way? Sure.

Around here someone in the crowd would have had some relevant training or guts to try something. Setting up a bunch of bodies to catch a baby has been done -- in NYC not so long ago, I think. For cryin' out loud -- it was a second story window -- You throw the kids out and jump, even if you were pregnant.

Like Freeman said. Have a plan.

My dad taught us to check for exits when we went into a public building, theater etc.

"It's possible that the death toll would have been considerably higher if the police allowed people to go in. Then they'd be vilified for that."

I don't remember reading a lot of stories blaming police for letting people risk their lives to help others... seriously, I can't recall any... I do remember some stories about people who died trying to help... they're usually held up as examples of whets good about society... I think one such story said the person had a statue put up in their honor (they saved a bunch of people but kept going back to get more until they too succumbed)…

Cedarford - You are talking too - what you are saying is that you would follow orders, and perhaps ask a neighbor if they have the makings of Smores. Now with delicious Wife & Child flavors!

As for my ignorance, I correctly predicted that the UK community in question was underserved in comparison with typ. US. That you accept this is, well, your privilege.

Actually my grandpa was a firefighter after he came home from WWII; died before I was born, or I woulda probably ended up like him. (I agree that I am not properly trained; I'm just saying that wouldn't stop me. Nor any one unarmed man.)

Either you got it or you don't, Ceef; don't be shy, you just don't got it, that's OK. You are not willing to run into a burning building and I am. I'm not a Good German type, to passively listen to people dying because some shithead in blue said so, and you are.

That's not why I don't like you. I might like you 1-2% more if you were, but you don't come here to earn good opinions of yourself. Not everybody can be this crazy/stupid/whatever you have to be to be a fireman.

I do sometimes wonder what it is that you are or were ever willing to do, other than insult and prejudge people. That and, I suppose, turn a key and kill a few million people; or sweep up after the actual missileers, whatever it is you did for USAF.

But enough abuse of Rottenführer Cedarford. Actually I should thank him this once. (Though I maintain that you have a little too much insight into Palladian's prowlings - takes one to know one?)

Tell me - C4, anybody - where's their money going, in the UK? Not to guns for cops. Not to weapons for their military, for that matter. Not to fire departments. Supposedly NHS is more efficient than we are.

So where is the big money suck that is draining England like Dr. Phibes? Wetbacks? We got them too. Does it go to gin? Lupins? Does a Queen cost THAT much? How long have they been this tribe of next-thing-to-beggars? WWII?

Steyn: Americans ought to ponder: You can live as free men, with all the rights and responsibilities and vicissitudes of fate that that entails. Or you can watch your society decay and die before your eyes - as England, once the crucible of freedom, dies a little with every day.

Again, don't I have a moral responsibility to put a bullet in the slavemaster's brain?

Socialists beware. If the rule of law comes tumbling down, you will be hunted down with vigor.

Just so you know, we had a somewhat similar situation here in Vermont involving a dog. A man had driven onto the ice of the lake with his pet dog when his truck started to go through. The local volunteer fire dept rescued the man from the half submerged vehicle, then rescued the dog out of fear that if they didn't, one of the onlookers would risk rescuing the animal without the proper gear. A half hour later, the truck went all the way through to the bottom of the lake, just in case you think rescuing the dog was not dangerous for the fireman.

We already had our test whether American police and firefighters would go into a burning building to rescue people inside - World Trade Center 1 and 2, Sept. 11, 2001. We passed. Shame on the English coppers.

Richard Fagin said... We already had our test whether American police and firefighters would go into a burning building to rescue people inside - World Trade Center 1 and 2, Sept. 11, 2001. We passed.

In fairness Richard, I give you an English-American hero:

Rick Rescorla, calling from his cell phone.

"I'm evacuating right now," Rescorla said.

Hill could hear Rescorla issuing orders through the bullhorn. He was calm and collected, never raising his voice. Then Hill heard him break into song:

Men of Cornwall stop your dreaming; Can't you see their spearpoints gleaming? See their warriors' pennants streaming To this battlefield. Men of Cornwall stand ye steady; It cannot be ever said ye for the battle were not ready; Stand and never yield!

He added that the Port Authority was telling him not to evacuate and to order people to stay at their desks.

"What'd you say?" Hill asked.

"I said, 'Piss off, you son of a bitch,' " Rescorla replied. "Everything above where that plane hit is going to collapse, and it's going to take the whole building with it. I'm getting my people the fuck out of here." Then he said, "I got to go.

The rest of Rick Rescorla's morning is shrouded in some mystery. The tower went dark. Fire raged. Windows shattered. Rescorla headed upstairs before moving down; he helped evacuate several people above the 50th Floor. Stephan Newhouse, chairman of Morgan Stanley International, said at a memorial service in Hayle that Rescorla was spotted as high as the 72nd floor, then worked his way down, clearing floors as he went. He was telling people to stay calm, pace themselves, get off their cell phones, keep moving. At one point, he was so exhausted he had to sit for a few minutes, although he continued barking orders through his bullhorn. Morgan Stanley officials said he called headquarters shortly before the tower collapsed to say he was going back up to search for stragglers.

Morgan Stanley officials say Rescorla also told employees that "today is a day to be proud to be American" and that "tomorrow, the whole world will be talking about you." They say he also sang "God Bless America" and Cornish folk tunes in the stairwells. Those reports could not be confirmed, although they don't sound out of character. He liked to sing in a crisis. But the documented truth is impressive enough. Morgan Stanley managing director Bob Sloss was the only employee who didn't evacuate the 66th floor after the first plane hit, pausing to call his family and several underlings, even taking a call from a Bloomberg News reporter. Then the second plane hit, and his office walls cracked, and he felt the tower wagging like a dog's tail. He clambered down to the 10th floor, and there was Rescorla, sweating through his suit in the heat, telling people they were almost out, making no move to leave himself.

Rick did not make it out. Neither did two of his security officers who were at his side. But only three other Morgan Stanley employees died when their building was obliterated.

"'Had in the first place' makes it sound as if the family were already dead."

And that's not by accident. If you start with that assumption, it makes rationalizing everything afterward so much easier.

I listen to an emergency scanner as a hobby and know a few volunteer firefighters, medics, and fire-police. I sympathize with the cops' predicament, but, well, the police are not our mommy and daddy. If the police are too risk-averse to help dying people, then they need to get out of the way - or be moved out of the way - and allow the adults in the room to do what they feel is necessary.

None of us were there. We're just reading media reports (those are never inaccurate, right?). Note too that all the quotes damning the police are from a single source.

What nobody seems to be thinking about is this: if the fire is bad enough, anyone rushing in to help may very well end up needing rescuing themselves. You may feel you have the right to put yourself at risk, but what about the firefighter who has to come in and get you?

Not saying "civilians" should never go into burning buildings. Not saying the cops did everything right. Just seems that people are leaping to some rather startling conclusions here.

You may feel you have the right to put yourself at risk, but what about the firefighter who has to come in and get you?

He comes or he doesn't. The State is not your father. You are not a child. If you see a crisis and no one is there to help, and you think you might be able to make a difference, the State has no right to stop you.