mst wrote:If people are EDing becuase they truly love the school and not because their numbers/softs aren't good enough to get them in regardless, then they are underachievers in the sense that they are making stupid decisions for absolutely no reason, considering this equates to basically giving up scholarship offers at comparable schools for absolutely no reason. If they are dumb enough to do that just for the sake of saying "Hey I like you but there's no reason to point this out because my numbers are on par anyways", there is absolutely no way I would want them to be my attorney... So for their sake, I hope you're wrong.

I agree with the rest.

Having said that last cycle I had competative numbers, no Why Xs and got WL at all of the MVP. Not sure if it was YP or or not since my numbers were not CCN. I think its kinda pretentious for a school not to admit someone on account of not expressing special interest in them. What makes them think they are so special?

Wow this freaks me out. I only wrote a Why X for Michigan because I was led to believe they care a great deal about it. I agree that it is ridiculous for schools to play this YP game and demand that you express interest. Obviously if you have applied, and especially if you had no fee waiver, then you are interested in the school. It is really unreasonable. It would be nice if yield rates were not reported and this bullshit could be avoided.

Ragged, do you mind if I ask what your #s were and where you ended up? (PM me if you'd like)I'd really, really love to go to Michigan or Penn.

Ragged wrote:I think its kinda pretentious for a school not to admit someone on account of not expressing special interest in them. What makes them think they are so special?

Exactly where I was trying to go with this... Maybe its just me. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe a school should screen for this? I don't know anymore. All I know is that I tried hard in college like I was supposed to, did a lot of soft stuff to prove I was a "leader" and innovative and motivated and stuff, wrote a decent PS and DS, and practiced my butt of for the LSAT, so that I could get into the best law school I possibly could get into. UVA is one of those tops schools because it places very well, has excellent professors, and gives out a great education... I don't have a particularly special interest in it aside from that. But I don't know why that has to be necessary.

Exactly! Imagine how many people (I guess I could well be one of these people) get screwed because they haven't been crazy enough to constantly lurk TLS and just assume that their application is will be looked at fairly and without considerations of yield rates. Unreal.

mst wrote:If people are EDing becuase they truly love the school and not because their numbers/softs aren't good enough to get them in regardless, then they are underachievers in the sense that they are making stupid decisions for absolutely no reason, considering this equates to basically giving up scholarship offers at comparable schools for absolutely no reason.

If you've visited any of the schools in the MVPB bracket, you'd know that UVA offers a completely different environment. There are quite a few people who ED'd and received scholarships as well. Additionally, it counteracts YP. You should know that there is a lot that goes into the decision process, and the 176/3.2 that got waitlisted is a good example of that.

If they are dumb enough to do that just for the sake of saying "Hey I like you but there's no reason to point this out because my numbers are on par anyways", there is absolutely no way I would want them to be my attorney... So for their sake, I hope you're wrong.

You only plan on letting people who graduate from a T10 that has an admissions process that you agree with work on your cases? good luck!

Ragged wrote:What makes them think they are so special?

I think all of the T14 think they're so special, maybe because they're the T14 *shrug*

Exactly where I was trying to go with this... Maybe its just me. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe a school should screen for this? I don't know anymore. All I know is that I tried hard in college like I was supposed to, did a lot of soft stuff to prove I was a "leader" and innovative and motivated and stuff, wrote a decent PS and DS, and practiced my butt of for the LSAT, so that I could get into the best law school I possibly could get into. UVA is one of those tops schools because it places very well, has excellent professors, and gives out a great education... I don't have a particularly special interest in it aside from that. But I don't know why that has to be necessary.

IAFG wrote:If you really wanted to go writing a "why UVA" would be easy; clearly you don't so why are you having a hissy fit.

Just because I don't have a particular reason to go to UVA outside of the standard stuff doesn't mean I don't really want to go there...

Is this what you're going to tell your OCI interviewers? "I want to work at your firm/organization because although I can't differentiate it from other firms/organizations it is well regarded and has good lawyers."

When I said I wouldn't hire them to be my attorney, I was kind of joking... The point that I'm trying to make is that nobody is really out there sending ED apps just for the sake of sending out an ED app, they are doing it because they aren't confident that they're numbers are enough to get them in regardless. My situation was just pointing out how implausible it is that a majority of ED applicants are EDing for hell of it and not for some boost on lackluster credentials, as IAFD(whatever) would have you suggest.

And I do know UVA has a different enviroment. And if you read this whole thread, you know I mentioned that briefly in my app. But I'm not going to write an entire essay about their softball league...

Last edited by mst on Sun Nov 21, 2010 10:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

mst wrote:When I said I wouldn't hire them to be my attorney, I was kind of joking... The point that I'm trying to make is that nobody is really out there sending ED apps just for the sake of sending out an ED app, they are doing it because they aren't confident that they're numbers are enough to get them in regardless. My situation was just pointing out how implausible it is that a majority of ED applicants are EDing for hell of it and not for some boost on lackluster credentials, as IAFD(whatever) would have you suggest.

And I do know UVA has a different enviroment. And if you read this whole thread, you know I mentioned that briefly in my PS. But I'm not going to write an entire essay about their softball league...

You realize you're below their GPA median, right? You never would have been an auto-admit.

IAFG wrote:If you really wanted to go writing a "why UVA" would be easy; clearly you don't so why are you having a hissy fit.

Just because I don't have a particular reason to go to UVA outside of the standard stuff doesn't mean I don't really want to go there...

Is this what you're going to tell your OCI interviewers? "I want to work at your firm/organization because although I can't differentiate it from other firms/organizations it is well regarded and has good lawyers."

But what's wrong with that? Its a serious question. Not everyone is gonna have a specific and noble sounding reason for wanting to go to a particular school/get a particular job, besides that that school/job is good at what they do and have a high reputation. Isn't that a reason enough?

I understand that its a type of a question one is required to have a "good" answer to, no matter how imaginative. But it just sounds fake/forced most of the time.

IAFG wrote:If you really wanted to go writing a "why UVA" would be easy; clearly you don't so why are you having a hissy fit.

Just because I don't have a particular reason to go to UVA outside of the standard stuff doesn't mean I don't really want to go there...

Is this what you're going to tell your OCI interviewers? "I want to work at your firm/organization because although I can't differentiate it from other firms/organizations it is well regarded and has good lawyers."

I'm going to tell them "I like X about your culture/work/oppurtunties. I feel like it could be a good match." and move on, like any person would in any normal environment where we are being adults with each other and not treating each other like idiots by writing pages of bullshit facts on that particular firm to pretend there really is something REMARKABLY different for that one firm, when everyone knows there just isn't.

UVA is a law school. It's really good. It's near DC and places in DC well. It has a very friendly culture. It conducts OCI's a bit different from Michigan. Aside from that, it's not some remarkable program that is vastly different from its peers. It teaches law. It has great professors. It has good connections and alumni support.

I have one life. I'm going to die. And in the meantime I don't feel like having to bullshit my way through it just for the sake of getting into law school. I'm not going to apologize for that. I'm going to complain that it is necessary in the hopes that somebody notices and eventually it will be part of a movement supporting change. You don't have to listen to me complain. You opened this thread. Not me...

IAFG wrote:You realize you're below their GPA median, right? You never would have been an auto-admit.

I'm not suggesting I'm an auto-admit, (and if I have in the past, I apologize). I'm simply asking for judgement on consideration of my accomplishments and credentials. And that my application shouldn't be wait listed, as many have basically implied it will be (and as the data has implied), simply for the sake that I didn't have some extremely unique reason for attending the school outside of the fact it is a great school, and that I wasn't willing to fake having such a reason.

mst wrote:When I said I wouldn't hire them to be my attorney, I was kind of joking... The point that I'm trying to make is that nobody is really out there sending ED apps just for the sake of sending out an ED app, they are doing it because they aren't confident that they're numbers are enough to get them in regardless. My situation was just pointing out how implausible it is that a majority of ED applicants are EDing for hell of it and not for some boost on lackluster credentials, as IAFD(whatever) would have you suggest.

And I do know UVA has a different enviroment. And if you read this whole thread, you know I mentioned that briefly in my PS. But I'm not going to write an entire essay about their softball league...

I feel like there's some cognitive dissonance going on here. Aren't you EDing to NYU because you're not confident that your lackluster numbers are good enough to get you in regardless? Glass houses, yo.

For the record, my numbers are pretty close to yours, and I applied ED to UVA because I really want to go there (despite not being very good at softball). I prefer the certainty of attending my first choice to the possibility of a little money at a peer school or a hypothetical acceptance to a slightly higher ranked school (I can't possibly overstate my unwillingness to attend NYU). That doesn't make me an "underachiever." It just means we have different priorities, doucheasaurus.

plenipotentiary wrote:I feel like there's some cognitive dissonance going on here. Aren't you EDing to NYU because you're not confident that your lackluster numbers are good enough to get you in regardless? Glass houses, yo.

For the record, my numbers are pretty close to yours, and I applied ED to UVA because I really want to go there (despite not being very good at softball). I prefer the certainty of attending my first choice to the possibility of a little money at a peer school or a hypothetical acceptance to a slightly higher ranked school (I can't possibly overstate my unwillingness to attend NYU). That doesn't make me an "underachiever." It just means we have different priorities, doucheasaurus.

I didn't say I wouldn't be considered an underachiever at NYU. I would be, relatively speaking in comparison to the rest of the class... Regardless, you can't really go bringing NYU into play here. NYU's ED plays a much smaller role in their process than UVA's... And unless you had 15k a year to throw away for no reason at all, I still think you made a stupid decision by EDing to UVA. You can have different priorities all you want, but unless you have a near-limitless supply of money the decision to avoid risk here just doesn't seem that logical to me. Different opinions doucesauraus-rex.

If you were really smart about this, you wouldn't be pointlessly defending UVA's system... you would realize that if they just ditched the whole "ED/Why-essay or Waitlist" system they currently have going on, you wouldn't have needed to ED to UVA in order to get in straight out anyways... And that the hard work you put in to have a great GPA and LSAT and Softs would speak for themselves and would get you into the schools you wanted to get into because you were the best applicant, and not the one most likely to boost their yield percentage....

plenipotentiary wrote:I feel like there's some cognitive dissonance going on here. Aren't you EDing to NYU because you're not confident that your lackluster numbers are good enough to get you in regardless? Glass houses, yo.

For the record, my numbers are pretty close to yours, and I applied ED to UVA because I really want to go there (despite not being very good at softball). I prefer the certainty of attending my first choice to the possibility of a little money at a peer school or a hypothetical acceptance to a slightly higher ranked school (I can't possibly overstate my unwillingness to attend NYU). That doesn't make me an "underachiever." It just means we have different priorities, doucheasaurus.

I didn't say I wouldn't be considered an underachiever at NYU. I would be, relatively speaking in comparison to the rest of the class... Regardless, you can't really go bringing NYU into play here. NYU's ED plays a much smaller role in their process than UVA's... And unless you had 15k a year to throw away for no reason at all, I still think you made a stupid decision by EDing to UVA. You can have different priorities all you want, but unless you have a near-limitless supply of money the decision to avoid risk here just doesn't seem that logical to me. Different opinions doucesauraus-rex.

If you were really smart about this, you wouldn't be pointlessly defending UVA's system... you would realize that if they just ditched the whole "ED/Why-essay or Waitlist" system they currently have going on, you wouldn't have needed to ED to UVA in order to get in straight out anyways... And that the hard work you put in to have a great GPA and LSAT and Softs would speak for themselves and would get you into the schools you wanted to get into because you were the best applicant, and not the one most likely to boost their yield percentage....

if we really were going to reform the system, why would we make this the focus? shouldn't it be killer softs (my class at NU is full of people that have done truly impressive things since they aren't coming straight from UG) then 90th percentile LSAT or so, since this 170+ or bust thing is sorta bullshit, I mean how much smarter is a 172 than a 166 really?

IAFG wrote:If you really wanted to go writing a "why UVA" would be easy; clearly you don't so why are you having a hissy fit.

Just because I don't have a particular reason to go to UVA outside of the standard stuff doesn't mean I don't really want to go there...

Is this what you're going to tell your OCI interviewers? "I want to work at your firm/organization because although I can't differentiate it from other firms/organizations it is well regarded and has good lawyers."

I'm going to tell them "I like X about your culture/work/oppurtunties. I feel like it could be a good match." and move on, like any person would in any normal environment where we are being adults with each other and not treating each other like idiots by writing pages of bullshit facts on that particular firm to pretend there really is something REMARKABLY different for that one firm, when everyone knows there just isn't.

UVA is a law school. It's really good. It's near DC and places in DC well. It has a very friendly culture. It conducts OCI's a bit different from Michigan. Aside from that, it's not some remarkable program that is vastly different from its peers. It teaches law. It has great professors. It has good connections and alumni support.

I have one life. I'm going to die. And in the meantime I don't feel like having to bullshit my way through it just for the sake of getting into law school. I'm not going to apologize for that. I'm going to complain that it is necessary in the hopes that somebody notices and eventually it will be part of a movement supporting change. You don't have to listen to me complain. You opened this thread. Not me...

There are differences between firms, like schools, and kissing ass and making someone want to take a chance on you is an important skill to have. These are hypothetical where firm X is a super prestigious firm and firm Y is slightly less so but with better prospects at making partner.

So say super prestigious firm X -- you can say that "I want to work with the biggest clients doing some of the most cutting edge legal work. I also think that working with the some of the best lawyers in the world will help me professionally. While I really plan of working my butt to make partner where ever I go, I know it is super competitive to make partner at your firm and I believe that even if I don't make the cut for you guys, it will prepare me to be as successful as I can possibly be elsewhere (subtle ass kiss + realistic expectations + bit of a risk for a reach firm)

Now, still good but less prestigious firm that this hypothetical person might be over qualified for (candidate for YP if this was a law schools) -- " I want to work somewhere where I can do some of the most cutting edge legal work with great lawyers. I especially like your firm because from my research you guys really reward hard work and dedication to the firm. I really want to work my butt off for a firm and make partner at the same firm I start at wherever I go. A growing / established / whatever firm like Y is the kind of place where that dedication can pay off unlike other firms that don't really give associates a chance."

I really know nothing about what firms want to hear but just based off regular job interviews. Schools want to hear the same kind of stuff that makes them feel good and believe that you will / really want to attend. No one likes making an offer to someone who really isn't interested.

mst wrote:I didn't say I wouldn't be considered an underachiever at NYU. I would be, relatively speaking in comparison to the rest of the class... Regardless, you can't really go bringing NYU into play here. NYU's ED plays a much smaller role in their process than UVA's... And unless you had 15k a year to throw away for no reason at all, I still think you made a stupid decision by EDing to UVA. You can have different priorities all you want, but unless you have a near-limitless supply of money the decision to avoid risk here just doesn't seem that logical to me. Different opinions doucesauraus-rex.

If you were really smart about this, you wouldn't be pointlessly defending UVA's system... you would realize that if they just ditched the whole "ED/Why-essay or Waitlist" system they currently have going on, you wouldn't have needed to ED to UVA in order to get in straight out anyways... And that the hard work you put in to have a great GPA and LSAT and Softs would speak for themselves and would get you into the schools you wanted to get into because you were the best applicant, and not the one most likely to boost their yield percentage....

If law school admissions were a simple meritocracy, then pretty much the same people would be getting into every school -- and it wouldn't be you and me. The bottom line is that UVA gets more qualified applicants than they have seats, and they need to differentiate between them somehow. Personally, I appreciate the fact that a desire to attend counts in the admissions process. I'm not the kind of person who would be happy attending law school anywhere. Hard work also went into deciding which school would be the best fit for me.

UVA loves people that love UVA. If you ED, it shows you really want to attend there. Splitters will probably get in somewhere in the T-14 anyways and so if you like UVA, its a great way into the T-10. Also, splitters are not all underachievers, many people here played college sports, ran fraternities, had social lives and truly enjoyed their undergrad so their GPA suffered, then rocked the LSAT because they are intelligent and hard workers. I don't think you can call anyone willing to go to law school an underachiever, its a lot of fucking work. If you think splitters are underachievers you probably wont fit in/like the culture at UVA. Its very work hard, play hard and some times it seems like people are doing barely any work, but those people are probably smart as hell.

Also, the way UVA does admissions is very smart, look at their acceptance rate, its 10%. Their medians are 3.85 and 170, doing it this way obviously is helping them. And you say they dont get a good feel for the class? You think you honestly get that from reading everyone's personal statement and going through someones profile? Most people say some generic shit anyways about helping people. Once you get here pretty much everyone is bright and accomplished in different ways, who are you to say who belongs and who doesnt at a t-10 school?

IAFG wrote:if we really were going to reform the system, why would we make this the focus? shouldn't it be killer softs (my class at NU is full of people that have done truly impressive things since they aren't coming straight from UG) then 90th percentile LSAT or so, since this 170+ or bust thing is sorta bullshit, I mean how much smarter is a 172 than a 166 really?

Since when is reform exclusive to 1 thing at 1 school? By all means, start your own thread where you can join the thousands of other people complaining about the weight placed on the LSAT. Or join a political party where you can fight for more water in Malawi... I have no idea why the fact that there are probably thousands of other things wrong with the admissions process means that I can't identify and try to correct this one... Jeez dude.

IAFG wrote:if we really were going to reform the system, why would we make this the focus? shouldn't it be killer softs (my class at NU is full of people that have done truly impressive things since they aren't coming straight from UG) then 90th percentile LSAT or so, since this 170+ or bust thing is sorta bullshit, I mean how much smarter is a 172 than a 166 really?

Since when is reform exclusive to 1 thing at 1 school? By all means, start your own thread where you can join the thousands of other people complaining about the weight placed on the LSAT. Or join a political party where you can fight for more water in Malawi... I have no idea why the fact that there are probably thousands of other things wrong with the admissions process means that I can't identify and try to correct this one... Jeez dude.

i was just subtly trolling that you're criticizing a system that favors you.

$$$$$$ wrote:UVA loves people that love UVA. If you ED, it shows you really want to attend there. Splitters will probably get in somewhere in the T-14 anyways and so if you like UVA, its a great way into the T-10. Also, splitters are not all underachievers, many people here played college sports, ran fraternities, had social lives and truly enjoyed their undergrad so their GPA suffered, then rocked the LSAT because they are intelligent and hard workers. I don't think you can call anyone willing to go to law school an underachiever, its a lot of fucking work. If you think splitters are underachievers you probably wont fit in/like the culture at UVA. Its very work hard, play hard and some times it seems like people are doing barely any work, but those people are probably smart as hell.

Also, the way UVA does admissions is very smart, look at their acceptance rate, its 10%. Their medians are 3.85 and 170, doing it this way obviously is helping them. And you say they dont get a good feel for the class? You think you honestly get that from reading everyone's personal statement and going through someones profile? Most people say some generic shit anyways about helping people. Once you get here pretty much everyone is bright and accomplished in different ways, who are you to say who belongs and who doesnt at a t-10 school?

1)What the hell are you talking about? Nothing you said in the first paragraph has anything to do with what I'm pointing out...

2)UVA has an acceptance rate of 10% because they waitlist the crap out of qualified people who weren't willing to commit to an ED because that's not how a fair admissions process should work, especially if you meet the LSAT and GPA medians of the school...

3)I never said it wasn't helping them. I just said it was screwing us (the applicants). Why are people on their side with this one? I don't understand... If you were getting in currently, you would get in if they stopped. If you were getting YP'd currently, you would get in. Nothing would hurt any applicants, except UVA's stats wouldn't be complete bullshit anymore...

mst wrote:1)What the hell are you talking about? Nothing you said in the first paragraph has anything to do with what I'm pointing out...

2)UVA has an acceptance rate of 10% because they waitlist the crap out of qualified people who weren't willing to commit to an ED because that's not how a fair admissions process should work, especially if you meet the LSAT and GPA medians of the school...

3)I never said it wasn't helping them. I just said it was screwing us (the applicants). Why are people on their side with this one? I don't understand... If you were getting in currently, you would get in if they stopped. If you were getting YP'd currently, you would get in. Nothing would hurt any applicants, except UVA's stats wouldn't be complete bullshit anymore...

UVA has an acceptance rate of 10% and they were overenrolled last year. That means their acceptance rate is too high. It means that they did not waitlist or reject enough people, not that they waitlisted too many. If UVA admitted every qualified applicant who applied, their class size would be much bigger.

Anyway, if you're too lazy to familiarize yourself with the differences between 14 law schools, how do you expect the school to differentiate between thousands of applicants with similar credentials? ED is one way that they can do that. There's some randomness in the law school admissions process, and ED cuts down on that.

IAFG wrote:i was just subtly trolling that you're criticizing a system that favors you.

-I'm not going to get into a discussion over the value of LSAT scores. This thread assumes everything else in the admissions process is equal. If you want to bring in every other variable, it would be absolute chaos.

-If Virginia was picking these applicants based on their other factors alone (aside from their willingness to ED or write essays that hold no real meaning), your comment would make sense. But they're not. They're clearly yield protecting people. So your comment doesn't really carry weight.