Let me point out a few things1. This is an "Independent living facility.' See that word 'independent?' It's not a nursing home. It's an apartment complex that has a lot of amenities provided such as someone to help you get around your apartment, cook meals and other assistance.2. The facility does not have 'trained medical staff.' The term 'nurse' is also used for orderlies who provide the sponge baths and change bedpans, note the difference between 'nurse' and 'registered nurse.'3. If I have a doctorate of physics, and I refuse to render aid to someone has been stabbed, am I guilty of "Professional neglect unbecoming a doctor?" No, because I'm not that kind of doctor. The staff at this facility are not 'that kind of nurse.'4. A 911 dispatcher does not have the authority to issue orders to anyone. They aren't police officers, they're just highly trained employees at a call center.

Securitywyrm:Let me point out a few things1. This is an "Independent living facility.' See that word 'independent?' It's not a nursing home. It's an apartment complex that has a lot of amenities provided such as someone to help you get around your apartment, cook meals and other assistance.2. The facility does not have 'trained medical staff.' The term 'nurse' is also used for orderlies who provide the sponge baths and change bedpans, note the difference between 'nurse' and 'registered nurse.'3. If I have a doctorate of physics, and I refuse to render aid to someone has been stabbed, am I guilty of "Professional neglect unbecoming a doctor?" No, because I'm not that kind of doctor. The staff at this facility are not 'that kind of nurse.'4. A 911 dispatcher does not have the authority to issue orders to anyone. They aren't police officers, they're just highly trained employees at a call center.

I agree with everything except that the 911 dispatchers ARENT "highly trained".

pretty much. you also go on to pretty much say "just because" in the rest of your post. like in the very next sentence where you say "You did the right thing because doing right makes you feel good."

And I'm telling you i didn't do it because it made me feel good. I did something I didn't want to do because as a new father I had a moral obligation to do something that most definitely didn't make me feel good at all. something that was the exact opposite of what would make me feel good, like going back to sleep in my warm bed. nor was it a case of doing what I didn't want to do because of fear of legal reprisal.

"Pretty much?" You've changed too many diapers in the middle of the night, dad; it's made you punch-drunk. All you had to do was re-read my original words, which I left in my reply, to know that I pretty much did NOT say, "just because."

You wanted two conflicting things: to stay in your warm bed and to fulfill your moral obligation. Either would make you feel good (if you can sleep while a babby's crying). You chose the one that made you feel better; the one that made you feel the most good.

That is how people always act. There's no shame in admitting that you're just like everyone else. Just like Colleen, who had to choose between her job and CPR.

log_jammin:The more you eat the more you fart: making her licensed nurse status a non-issue.

I never said it was. Not once did I say she should have preformed CPR because she was a nurse.

I said she should have preformed CPR because shes a human being watching another human being die in front of her.

The more you eat the more you fart: seriously..you need to stfu.

you're such a pleasant person. no wonder you get along with your colleagues so well.

1. the other human being dying infront of her would not have been able to be saved even if she collapsed infront of a neurosurgeon. she was dead before her body hit the floor, the respiratory center in her brain stem had just not ceased functioning yet. Doing CPR on her would have been absolutely pointless. The nurse, who wasn't acting as a nurse at the time, acted appropriately. end of story.

2. Actually, my reputation at work is one of being someone that can absolutely be relied upon when the chips are down to make rational, well-informed decisions. Also, EVERY physician I work with has stated at one time that they hope and pray *I* am on duty should they ever need the trauma center. Also, I'm known as the guy that gets along with literally everyone...which means my frustration with you is more than likely based upon your refusal to admit that you are too ignorant to make informed opinions about what is going on, but its more about your continued proselytizing as though you actually KNOW what you are talking about when I have proven NUMEROUS times that you are full of shiat.

me texan:This whole furor is stupid to begin with regardless. Anyone actually trained in CPR knows you do not perform CPR unless the victim is not breathing. The 911 lady shouldn't be on 911.

Yeah, no; take ACLS and you will see that some people can appear to be "breathing" but the reality is that they are in need of CPR. The scenario, as it was described, necessitated CPR.

That said, people need to understand that CPR is not some magical bullet. On an 87 year old woman, it has a very low chance of succeeding, and if it does, you are looking at a completely fractured rib-cage, and a high likelihood of severe brain-damage. People who say, "Do everything you can to resuscitate me" need to be every bit as cognizant of the potential consequences of their decision, as do those signing DNR/DNIs.

That said, it's rather unconscionable, and frankly disturbing, to picture that nurse just standing there, phone in hand, speaking calmly with that dispatcher while she watches a woman die who has no DNR/DNI on file.

We asked her if CPR would have done any good in this case."it could have made a difference. Would it have made a difference in this particular situation? We don't have the answer to that, but have patients survived in a similar situation," said Shain.

so yeah. obviously she was dead when she hit the floor. But even if that were true we only know that now, and is irrelevant when it comes to what happened at the time.

So punish her negligence and disregard her family so someone can be sued and possibly lose her job. Yep that's better. Did you even read my entire comment? Are you a farking ambulance chaser? Have you ever sat with a terminally ill or extremely elderly and frail human who states repeatedly "I just want to die/end the pain?" Let me know if you have and you still think you are right in defending a f*cking piece of paper over the individuals or families wishes.This godamn belief that all life is sacred and must be saved, circumstances aside, is frankly the opinion of a mental deficiant.

I said what about any of that? Oh, nothing. Still, she didn't, whether she should have or not. Also, you might want to preview a little more closely before breaking out "mental deficiant" again.

BarkingUnicorn:You wanted two conflicting things: to stay in your warm bed and to fulfill your moral obligation. Either would make you feel good (if you can sleep while a babby's crying). You chose the one that made you feel better; the one that made you feel the most good.

no one claimed to have more medical knowledge or more skill than a trauma nurse with a masters degree. You just seem to operate under the mistaken assumption that a trauma nurse with a masters degree can never misinterpret what someone said or can just be wrong about something.

BarkingUnicorn:The more you eat the more you fart: BarkingUnicorn: log_jammin: The more you eat the more you fart: making it ILLEGAL for her to practice nursing there, despite the fact that she has a license.

Performing emergency CPR on a dieing woman is not "practicing nursing". I would think with your supposed "23 roadside saves" you would know this.

As I've said, if she wasn't practicing nursing then she had no duty to perform CPR against her employer's orders.

YOU are correct.I keep trying to tell his dumbass that, but for some reason, it isnt sinking in.

Not working as a nurse = not obligated as a nurse.

I started saying it two days ago, when this story broke. Therefore I am Hitler. :-)

I also speculated that nursing boards do not require a nurse to do herself harm in order to aid a client; i.e.,get herself fired for insubordination. Can you shed any light on that?

the nursing boards generally have a list of things they call "best practices" and another list of "Standards of Care".

If she was actually working as a nurse, this would fall under "professional standards of care" and DEPENDING ON WHAT LICENSE she held, could have indeed compelled her to start CPR.

Nurses are OFTEN up against the "employer vs board" wall...and I've known quite a few, including myself, that quit a job because the standards at the facility were in direct conflict with the nursing board's standard of care requirements for my license.

However, nothing has come out about what type of nursing license this lady held. If she has an RN or BSN, then she is legally able to determine that CPR would not be effective and could withhold performing it even though the standard of care says to do it.

the reason is because ALL state boards of nursing recognize that nurses, especially those with a bachelor's degree or above, possess FAR more knowledge than most people realize they do...and the boards give them GREAT leeway in the application of that knowledge. As long as they can give a reasonable medical justification for their actions, the state boards WILL side with the nurse.

a BSN (Bachelor of Science in Nursing) is a FIVE and a half year degree. NOT a four year. BSN's have VAST amounts of medical knowledge, and are allowed to apply it based upon their skill and knowledge and experience...as long as the nurse can articulate a medically justifiable reason.

More highly trained nurses are allowed even MORE leeway, and sometimes even "fall off" the standards of care list, and the Nurse Practice Act may not apply to them because they are beyond the scope of what the typical nurse is capable of.

a master's degree in nursing is roughtly equivalent to a doctorate's degree in most other subjects, as it takes 9.5 years to obtain....5.5 years for bachelor's in nursing, 2 years clinical practice, 2 years additional university.

log_jammin:The more you eat the more you fart: Firemen dont go around acting like they possess more medical knowledge/skill than a trauma nurse with a master's degree.

no one claimed to have more medical knowledge or more skill than a trauma nurse with a masters degree. You just seem to operate under the mistaken assumption that a trauma nurse with a masters degree can never misinterpret what someone said or can just be wrong about something.

The more you eat the more you fart:If she was actually working as a nurse, this would fall under "professional standards of care" and DEPENDING ON WHAT LICENSE she held, could have indeed compelled her to start CPR.

Nurses are OFTEN up against the "employer vs board" wall...and I've known quite a few, including myself, that quit a job because the standards at the facility were in direct conflict with the nursing board's standard of care requirements for my license.

So we're back to whether Colleen's job was nursing. I can't imagine why a facility that didn't provide nursing care would have a nursing job. I surmise that she was a nurse who had a non-nursing job. It's noteworthy that her employer hasn't specified what her job is.

Will a board discipline a nurse who is in a nursing job for adhering to her employer's standards when they conflict with the board's standard of care? Will a board say, "Find another job or lose your license" or something of that sort? Or is that decision up to the nurse?

The 4chan Psychiatrist:That said, it's rather unconscionable, and frankly disturbing, to picture that nurse just standing there, phone in hand, speaking calmly with that dispatcher while she watches a woman die who has no DNR/DNI on file.

When you listen to the entire, uncut call, it's completely obvious that nobody on staff made any sort of medical determination as to the status of the patient. It was a 100% issue of liability even though the 911 dispatcher addressed the liability issue. The dispatcher was surprisingly cool and understanding, but firm during the entire call. Whomever up thread referred to her as a "spaz" is a farkin' moron. The people at the facility chose to be useless. Nobody should be surprised that people who aren't lobotomized are a bit stunned upon hearing the call.

We asked her if CPR would have done any good in this case."it could have made a difference. Would it have made a difference in this particular situation? We don't have the answer to that, but have patients survived in a similar situation," said Shain.

No, it would not have. Sorry, but the person in the article is WRONG, and so are you.

so yeah. obviously she was dead when she hit the floor. But even if that were true we only know that now, and is irrelevant when it comes to what happened at the time.

The more you eat the more you fart: The nurse, who wasn't acting as a nurse at the time, acted appropriately. end of story.

well you see, I, and others, disagree with that. In your mind this makes us lesser beings or "white knights" or something for disagreeing with you.

No, it makes you a lesser being for not being able to understand that NOTHING would have saved this woman, even when someone who possesses FAR more knowledge than you do outright TELLS you that it's a fact, and you continue to argue otherwise because it would have made you FEEL better to do CPR regardless.

The more you eat the more you fart: Actually, my reputation at work is one of being someone that can absolutely be relied upon when the chips are down to make rational, well-informed decisions.

of course it is sugar. of course it is.

I see. so you work in the same hospital that I do? I can cut and paste from a letter of recommendation from one of the ER nurses I work with if you like...or hell, I'll do it anyhow just to prove the point....names and addresses and such omitted of course:

"

I am happy to recommend <name omitted> as an excellent nurse. Since earning my BSN in 1982, I've had the privilege of working with many excellent nurses but it would be hard to think of a stronger, more competent nurse than <name omitted>. We worked together at Our Lady of the Lake Regional Medical Center in the Adolescent Psych Unit for 2008-2010, and the ED for 2010 to the present.

<name omitted> is intelligent and insightful, having an amazing recall for anatomy and physiology, medications, lab values, and pathology, etc. well beyond the normal scope for even most MSN nurses. He is a hard-worker and a team-player. He frequently went above and beyond helping his coworkers, including the mental health techs, with patient care he was not required to do. For this he was well-liked and appreciated. <name omitted> has an easy-going, friendly manner and connects well with his coworkers and patients. I admired his ability to make meaningful connections with a population of difficult adolescents in the psychiatric unit, and his ability to perform at a level of perfection I have never before witnessed under extraordinarily stressful situations in the emergency department."

BarkingUnicorn:The more you eat the more you fart: If she was actually working as a nurse, this would fall under "professional standards of care" and DEPENDING ON WHAT LICENSE she held, could have indeed compelled her to start CPR.

Nurses are OFTEN up against the "employer vs board" wall...and I've known quite a few, including myself, that quit a job because the standards at the facility were in direct conflict with the nursing board's standard of care requirements for my license.

So we're back to whether Colleen's job was nursing. I can't imagine why a facility that didn't provide nursing care would have a nursing job. I surmise that she was a nurse who had a non-nursing job. It's noteworthy that her employer hasn't specified what her job is.

Will a board discipline a nurse who is in a nursing job for adhering to her employer's standards when they conflict with the board's standard of care? Will a board say, "Find another job or lose your license" or something of that sort? Or is that decision up to the nurse?

She was a nurse in a non-nursing job. The facility named the position in which she was hired, but i forget what it was...but it was NOT a medical or nursing position.

to your second question: yes. the state board WILL tell the nurse they are expected to follow the standards of practice according to the licensing board's requirements...regardless of what the FACILITY says...because the facility isnt the entity responsible for issuing their nursing license..the state board is.

vrax:The 4chan Psychiatrist: That said, it's rather unconscionable, and frankly disturbing, to picture that nurse just standing there, phone in hand, speaking calmly with that dispatcher while she watches a woman die who has no DNR/DNI on file.

When you listen to the entire, uncut call, it's completely obvious that nobody on staff made any sort of medical determination as to the status of the patient. It was a 100% issue of liability even though the 911 dispatcher addressed the liability issue. The dispatcher was surprisingly cool and understanding, but firm during the entire call. Whomever up thread referred to her as a "spaz" is a farkin' moron. The people at the facility chose to be useless. Nobody should be surprised that people who aren't lobotomized are a bit stunned upon hearing the call.

I think one must be a little out of touch with reality, a.k.a. "lobotomized," to be stunned by the call. "It aint what we don't know that gets us in trouble, it's what we think we know that aint so," said Mark Twain.

BarkingUnicorn:vrax: The 4chan Psychiatrist: That said, it's rather unconscionable, and frankly disturbing, to picture that nurse just standing there, phone in hand, speaking calmly with that dispatcher while she watches a woman die who has no DNR/DNI on file.

When you listen to the entire, uncut call, it's completely obvious that nobody on staff made any sort of medical determination as to the status of the patient. It was a 100% issue of liability even though the 911 dispatcher addressed the liability issue. The dispatcher was surprisingly cool and understanding, but firm during the entire call. Whomever up thread referred to her as a "spaz" is a farkin' moron. The people at the facility chose to be useless. Nobody should be surprised that people who aren't lobotomized are a bit stunned upon hearing the call.

I think one must be a little out of touch with reality, a.k.a. "lobotomized," to be stunned by the call. "It aint what we don't know that gets us in trouble, it's what we think we know that aint so," said Mark Twain.

Well, if you look at it from the perspective that people do shiatty things all the time, then sure.

The more you eat the more you fart:log_jammin: The more you eat the more you fart: would not have been able to be saved even if she collapsed infront of a neurosurgeon. she was dead before her body hit the floor

IIRC someone posted a link earlier thinking that's what the article said, when in actually it said CPR could have made a difference.

We asked her if CPR would have done any good in this case."it could have made a difference. Would it have made a difference in this particular situation? We don't have the answer to that, but have patients survived in a similar situation," said Shain.

No, it would not have. Sorry, but the person in the article is WRONG, and so are you.

so yeah. obviously she was dead when she hit the floor. But even if that were true we only know that now, and is irrelevant when it comes to what happened at the time.

The more you eat the more you fart: The nurse, who wasn't acting as a nurse at the time, acted appropriately. end of story.

well you see, I, and others, disagree with that. In your mind this makes us lesser beings or "white knights" or something for disagreeing with you.

No, it makes you a lesser being for not being able to understand that NOTHING would have saved this woman, even when someone who possesses FAR more knowledge than you do outright TELLS you that it's a fact, and you continue to argue otherwise because it would have made you FEEL better to do CPR regardless.

The more you eat the more you fart: Actually, my reputation at work is one of being someone that can absolutely be relied upon when the chips are down to make rational, well-informed decisions.

of course it is sugar. of course it is.

I see. so you work in the same hospital that I do? I can cut and paste from a letter of recommendation from one of the ER nurses I work with if you like...or hell, I'll do it anyhow just to prove the point....names and addresses and such omi ...

Never have I seen so much insecurity so openly displayed on Fark. OTOH, you agree with me that people do things because things make them feel better, so there's that in your favor.

/you wrote that letter, shoved it under her nose, smiled, and said, "Do you disagree with anything? Good; just sign here, then, and thank you for your trouble."

vrax:BarkingUnicorn: vrax: The 4chan Psychiatrist: That said, it's rather unconscionable, and frankly disturbing, to picture that nurse just standing there, phone in hand, speaking calmly with that dispatcher while she watches a woman die who has no DNR/DNI on file.

When you listen to the entire, uncut call, it's completely obvious that nobody on staff made any sort of medical determination as to the status of the patient. It was a 100% issue of liability even though the 911 dispatcher addressed the liability issue. The dispatcher was surprisingly cool and understanding, but firm during the entire call. Whomever up thread referred to her as a "spaz" is a farkin' moron. The people at the facility chose to be useless. Nobody should be surprised that people who aren't lobotomized are a bit stunned upon hearing the call.

I think one must be a little out of touch with reality, a.k.a. "lobotomized," to be stunned by the call. "It aint what we don't know that gets us in trouble, it's what we think we know that aint so," said Mark Twain.

Well, if you look at it from the perspective that people do shiatty things all the time, then sure.

"Do shiatty things" is the archetypical job description. Would it make you feel better to imagine that the same people might have done more for this woman if they weren't at work? Then do so.

Firemen dont go around acting like they possess more medical knowledge/skill than a trauma nurse with a master's degree.

Pardon me if I've lost track of who does what, but which 911 dispatcher in this thread has been making any claims to possess more medical knowledge or skill than you? I think that jab was more a poke at your casual disdain for dispatchers, medics and from what I've seen in other threads, police officers too.

BarkingUnicorn:vrax: BarkingUnicorn: vrax: The 4chan Psychiatrist: That said, it's rather unconscionable, and frankly disturbing, to picture that nurse just standing there, phone in hand, speaking calmly with that dispatcher while she watches a woman die who has no DNR/DNI on file.

When you listen to the entire, uncut call, it's completely obvious that nobody on staff made any sort of medical determination as to the status of the patient. It was a 100% issue of liability even though the 911 dispatcher addressed the liability issue. The dispatcher was surprisingly cool and understanding, but firm during the entire call. Whomever up thread referred to her as a "spaz" is a farkin' moron. The people at the facility chose to be useless. Nobody should be surprised that people who aren't lobotomized are a bit stunned upon hearing the call.

I think one must be a little out of touch with reality, a.k.a. "lobotomized," to be stunned by the call. "It aint what we don't know that gets us in trouble, it's what we think we know that aint so," said Mark Twain.

Well, if you look at it from the perspective that people do shiatty things all the time, then sure.

"Do shiatty things" is the archetypical job description. Would it make you feel better to imagine that the same people might have done more for this woman if they weren't at work? Then do so.

Why would I play make believe in their favor, when we have the simple fact that, based on policy, they chose to do nothing?

vrax:BarkingUnicorn: vrax: BarkingUnicorn: vrax: The 4chan Psychiatrist: That said, it's rather unconscionable, and frankly disturbing, to picture that nurse just standing there, phone in hand, speaking calmly with that dispatcher while she watches a woman die who has no DNR/DNI on file.

When you listen to the entire, uncut call, it's completely obvious that nobody on staff made any sort of medical determination as to the status of the patient. It was a 100% issue of liability even though the 911 dispatcher addressed the liability issue. The dispatcher was surprisingly cool and understanding, but firm during the entire call. Whomever up thread referred to her as a "spaz" is a farkin' moron. The people at the facility chose to be useless. Nobody should be surprised that people who aren't lobotomized are a bit stunned upon hearing the call.

I think one must be a little out of touch with reality, a.k.a. "lobotomized," to be stunned by the call. "It aint what we don't know that gets us in trouble, it's what we think we know that aint so," said Mark Twain.

Well, if you look at it from the perspective that people do shiatty things all the time, then sure.

"Do shiatty things" is the archetypical job description. Would it make you feel better to imagine that the same people might have done more for this woman if they weren't at work? Then do so.

Why would I play make believe in their favor, when we have the simple fact that, based on policy, they chose to do nothing?

I said do it if it would make you feel better, unless believing that people do shiatty things all the time makes you feel better still. But then you're out of touch with reality again; maybe that makes you feel as good as possible.

BarkingUnicorn:vrax: BarkingUnicorn: vrax: BarkingUnicorn: vrax: The 4chan Psychiatrist: That said, it's rather unconscionable, and frankly disturbing, to picture that nurse just standing there, phone in hand, speaking calmly with that dispatcher while she watches a woman die who has no DNR/DNI on file.

When you listen to the entire, uncut call, it's completely obvious that nobody on staff made any sort of medical determination as to the status of the patient. It was a 100% issue of liability even though the 911 dispatcher addressed the liability issue. The dispatcher was surprisingly cool and understanding, but firm during the entire call. Whomever up thread referred to her as a "spaz" is a farkin' moron. The people at the facility chose to be useless. Nobody should be surprised that people who aren't lobotomized are a bit stunned upon hearing the call.

I think one must be a little out of touch with reality, a.k.a. "lobotomized," to be stunned by the call. "It aint what we don't know that gets us in trouble, it's what we think we know that aint so," said Mark Twain.

Well, if you look at it from the perspective that people do shiatty things all the time, then sure.

"Do shiatty things" is the archetypical job description. Would it make you feel better to imagine that the same people might have done more for this woman if they weren't at work? Then do so.

Why would I play make believe in their favor, when we have the simple fact that, based on policy, they chose to do nothing?

I said do it if it would make you feel better, unless believing that people do shiatty things all the time makes you feel better still. But then you're out of touch with reality again; maybe that makes you feel as good as possible.

As a lawyer, let me just say: THIS. Or spell out what measures you do want, in the alternative.In writing, with multiple copies per your state's formal requirements.

It's STILL not a guarantee of your end-of-life experience...docs routinely ignore them, partly because of the public's "nobody should ever die, ever" reaction on display in this case...but it's better than nothing.

The 4chan Psychiatrist:me texan: This whole furor is stupid to begin with regardless. Anyone actually trained in CPR knows you do not perform CPR unless the victim is not breathing. The 911 lady shouldn't be on 911.

Yeah, no; take ACLS and you will see that some people can appear to be "breathing" but the reality is that they are in need of CPR. The scenario, as it was described, necessitated CPR.

That said, people need to understand that CPR is not some magical bullet. On an 87 year old woman, it has a very low chance of succeeding, and if it does, you are looking at a completely fractured rib-cage, and a high likelihood of severe brain-damage. People who say, "Do everything you can to resuscitate me" need to be every bit as cognizant of the potential consequences of their decision, as do those signing DNR/DNIs.

That said, it's rather unconscionable, and frankly disturbing, to picture that nurse just standing there, phone in hand, speaking calmly with that dispatcher while she watches a woman die who has no DNR/DNI on file.

She was not a 'nurse' in the way you're thinking. You're thinking of a 'registered nurse' or 'licensed nurse practitioner.' In an actual hospital her job title would be 'orderly' meaning the person who changes the sheets, helps someone get between rooms, that sort of thing. It's a private institution, and giving someone a nicer job title helps morale.Think of it this way: In retail, how many people with the word 'manager' in their title are really just supervisors with no actual managerial authority? Why is the civilian pilot of an airplane or the civilian in charge of a boat called the Captain despite having no military rank? Why do some people get addressed as "Sir" despite not being knighted?

Firemen dont go around acting like they possess more medical knowledge/skill than a trauma nurse with a master's degree.

Just to be a bit contrarian, you have to be careful about those generalizations.

I worked years ago with a bunch first responders with very good skills and knowledge pertinent to this situation, and a trauma nurse who was VERY good at knife/gunshot surgery, but couldn't do CPR to save someone's life (literally, heh.)

She also, after 12 years in the Reserves, qualifying on a shooting range, and digging numerous actual bullets out of people during surgery, didn't really understand that the bullet came out of a cartridge when you pulled the trigger.

Very good nurse, as I said...people can have very odd gaps in their knowledge base, I find.