Zkills wrote:Preference doesn’t matter here. What matters is the health of this game and what needs to be done to achieve success. The preference for many here is to take the easy but destructive route of dominance, which does nothing but hurt the future of this game. What if VR has major success with warhammer, then they see how this game has been on the decline, and then they ultimately decide to shut the doors on Celtic Heroes? The toxic environment fueled by dominance has caused enough damage

Just cuz you don’t enjoy a game mode doesn’t make it destructive... honestly... you aren’t some god that establishes an objects normative value just by your opinion ._.Dom servers have lasted a long time and vast majority of players prefer servers set up that way.

Just because you disagree with it doesn’t mean it needs to be changed... you are one player, start realizing that you don’t speak for the whole community mr lorax

I’m yet to hear an argument defending dominance other than “preference”. Preference is not a strong argument. Everything I’ve stated have been facts. Dominance has worked for a long time because everyone has simply accepted dominance since it was one of the first systems created when the lock mechanic was introduced. That doesn’t mean it’s a positive system because this game has failed to grow under dominance. Part of the reason is the lack of content, the other is people simply leaving the game at a higher rate on dominant servers. The game has been out for 8 years... we should be massive, but we’re not and it’s clear based off of the facts stated that dominance has been apart of the issue.

Epona isn’t just successful in its xfers, but the amount of new players going there and staying as well.

Incorrect, you have yet to hear an argument you like, you have heard plenty.Mine is that I prefer a server where those with the biggest pocketbooks irl can’t come in and have everything for zero work. I prefer the game to be as independent of who you are irl as possible, a whole virtual world detached. Maybe it’s cuz I’m a broke ass college student irl Anyways, as such I like a server where fash etc are pricy and people can distinguish themselves that way, but the success of a player is purely determined by how much they put into the clan.I like clan loyalty, I like having a close group of friends.On top of this many like me don’t like relying on luck. I prefer to make my own luck than leave things up to fate.At the end of the day it is preference, but that’s the gist of where it comes from.

bob the mage wrote:Just cuz you don’t enjoy a game mode doesn’t make it destructive... honestly... you aren’t some god that establishes an objects normative value just by your opinion ._.Dom servers have lasted a long time and vast majority of players prefer servers set up that way.

Just because you disagree with it doesn’t mean it needs to be changed... you are one player, start realizing that you don’t speak for the whole community mr lorax

I’m yet to hear an argument defending dominance other than “preference”. Preference is not a strong argument. Everything I’ve stated have been facts. Dominance has worked for a long time because everyone has simply accepted dominance since it was one of the first systems created when the lock mechanic was introduced. That doesn’t mean it’s a positive system because this game has failed to grow under dominance. Part of the reason is the lack of content, the other is people simply leaving the game at a higher rate on dominant servers. The game has been out for 8 years... we should be massive, but we’re not and it’s clear based off of the facts stated that dominance has been apart of the issue.

Epona isn’t just successful in its xfers, but the amount of new players going there and staying as well.

Incorrect, you have yet to hear an argument you like, you have heard plenty.Mine is that I prefer a server where those with the biggest pocketbooks irl can’t come in and have everything for zero work. I prefer the game to be as independent of who you are irl as possible, a whole virtual world detached. Maybe it’s cuz I’m a broke ass college student irl Anyways, as such I like a server where fash etc are pricy and people can distinguish themselves that way, but the success of a player is purely determined by how much they put into the clan.I like clan loyalty, I like having a close group of friends.On top of this many like me don’t like relying on luck. I prefer to make my own luck than leave things up to fate.At the end of the day it is preference, but that’s the gist of where it comes from.

Again, it’s not about preference, it’s about the overall health and future of the game. Look beyond your borders of dominance and see the larger issues at hand

Zkills, Proud general of the beloved KodiakReavers of Belenus, the G.O.A.T clan

Zkills wrote:I’m yet to hear an argument defending dominance other than “preference”. Preference is not a strong argument. Everything I’ve stated have been facts. Dominance has worked for a long time because everyone has simply accepted dominance since it was one of the first systems created when the lock mechanic was introduced. That doesn’t mean it’s a positive system because this game has failed to grow under dominance. Part of the reason is the lack of content, the other is people simply leaving the game at a higher rate on dominant servers. The game has been out for 8 years... we should be massive, but we’re not and it’s clear based off of the facts stated that dominance has been apart of the issue.

Epona isn’t just successful in its xfers, but the amount of new players going there and staying as well.

Incorrect, you have yet to hear an argument you like, you have heard plenty.Mine is that I prefer a server where those with the biggest pocketbooks irl can’t come in and have everything for zero work. I prefer the game to be as independent of who you are irl as possible, a whole virtual world detached. Maybe it’s cuz I’m a broke ass college student irl Anyways, as such I like a server where fash etc are pricy and people can distinguish themselves that way, but the success of a player is purely determined by how much they put into the clan.I like clan loyalty, I like having a close group of friends.On top of this many like me don’t like relying on luck. I prefer to make my own luck than leave things up to fate.At the end of the day it is preference, but that’s the gist of where it comes from.

Again, it’s not about preference, it’s about the overall health and future of the game. Look beyond your borders of dominance and see the larger issues at hand

Then lets establish an argument for that, can we agree game has health and a future if1) the devs make more money than it costs to keep the game afloat (make a profit)2) a critical mass of players exists (so game still can happen3) people are happy

bob the mage wrote:Incorrect, you have yet to hear an argument you like, you have heard plenty.Mine is that I prefer a server where those with the biggest pocketbooks irl can’t come in and have everything for zero work. I prefer the game to be as independent of who you are irl as possible, a whole virtual world detached. Maybe it’s cuz I’m a broke ass college student irl Anyways, as such I like a server where fash etc are pricy and people can distinguish themselves that way, but the success of a player is purely determined by how much they put into the clan.I like clan loyalty, I like having a close group of friends.On top of this many like me don’t like relying on luck. I prefer to make my own luck than leave things up to fate.At the end of the day it is preference, but that’s the gist of where it comes from.

Again, it’s not about preference, it’s about the overall health and future of the game. Look beyond your borders of dominance and see the larger issues at hand

Then lets establish an argument for that, can we agree game has health and a future if1) the devs make more money than it costs to keep the game afloat (make a profit)2) a critical mass of players exists (so game still can happen3) people are happy

I'm sure 1 is the case already, so there isn't a terrible need to worry about that. 2 is a debatable topic - what I consider to be a critical mass of players may not be what you consider to be a critical mass.3 is the most important one. And I think it's especially important to note that different things make different people happy. Forcing new play-styles on people will not make them happy, even if it's a "better" system. Change has to grow and evolve - it can't be forced.

Zkills, it may not make any sense to you as to how players can be happy with DKP instead of a roll system. Or with a single dominant clan instead of a clan alliance (which is essentially what Epona is). However, please recognize that not everyone is like you...and just because you don't see the appeal in a different system, doesn't mean that there is none. The beauty in humanity is that everyone is different, and has different opinions on different topics.

To everyone reading this: It's perfectly fine to discuss/critique/argue other opinions - that's a large part of what the forums are for. However, in the end, please recognize that everyone is entitled to their own opinions. If someone is dead-set in their beliefs/opinions, no amount of arguing or proof will change their minds - sometimes you just have to know when to leave a topic alone...which can be done without "giving in" to the person you are arguing with.

Have questions about anything? PM me!Alternatively, you can occasionally find me online in Sulis.Go team #WorldSkillsUSA2019!Harbinger of cold hard logic and reason. Check out the player-run Celtic Heroes Database!: celticheroesdb.com!

Eragon123 wrote:Zkills, it may not make any sense to you as to how players can be happy with DKP instead of a roll system. Or with a single dominant clan instead of a clan alliance (which is essentially what Epona is). However, please recognize that not everyone is like you...and just because you don't see the appeal in a different system, doesn't mean that there is none. The beauty in humanity is that everyone is different, and has different opinions on different topics

I understand people have their own preferences. I’m playing on both Epona and a dom server currently, and I enjoy both in their own respective ways. I can go to Epona to chill out a bit more and then go play on the dom server whenever I want to grind away or talk to the good people there. I’d gladly play in a dom clan as long as the people are good, because it’s really the people who can make or break the experience.

I’m not arguing from the stance of “Epona is the greatest so let’s make more Epona like servers” like the OP is suggesting. I’m arguing from the standpoint of trying to make this game more successful than it is now and try and make this game grow. After carefully thinking about it and then looking at the history of this game and other servers, it has become clear to me that making every server essentially free is the only way this game can become successful and grow. Although not in the same way Epona is, because Epona isn’t perfect either. That’s why I’ve been pushing for the loot distribution change.

The game has been stale for the longest time now with the vast majority of servers being dominant, there has been hardly any growth especially at endgame, and players are leaving far too quickly under dominance. People don’t buy as much plat on dominant servers as well which then I believe reflects on VR and their willingness to create more quality content. There needs to be change, and that change needs to be with the loot distribution. Sometimes in life you need to sacrifice something small for the greater good of the larger picture. I can bet a lot of companies do not enjoy letting people go, but sometimes it’s necessary. I’m certain the players here can sacrifice their dominance over their server for the greater good of the game. It’s a small price to pay, otherwise in a few years Celtic Heroes might not even be a thing anymore.

I am really good at strategic planning, it’s a gift that I am fortunate to have that runs in my family. Anyone who knows me irl knows that lol. I love coming here to share my insight because I truly care for this game, I’ve been playing since 6th grade over 8 years ago, and now I’m in college. Lots of good memories with the people I’ve met over the years, and it would be a shame to see it all go away when the problem can so easily be fixed. Yes all things eventually come to end, but this game is something truly unique and special that no other game can possibly replicate, and this game deserves to live on longer than anyone could expect.

bob the mage wrote:Then lets establish an argument for that, can we agree game has health and a future if1) the devs make more money than it costs to keep the game afloat (make a profit)2) a critical mass of players exists (so game still can happen3) people are happy

I have been trying to argue those three points the entire time.1. Free servers incentivize people to buy more plat2. Free servers attract newer players and give current players more reasons to be active. Dominance pushes more new players away than attracts, and dominance discourages players from being active, only logging for 15mins when a boss is due (some servers even struggle to gather for some bosses).3. Dominance by far creates more unhappy people than a free server. People being restricted from endgame content because of their clan, toxic environments fueled by competition, dkp/attendance creating internal problems in clans, etc...

Zkills, Proud general of the beloved KodiakReavers of Belenus, the G.O.A.T clan

Lmao, this discussion is hitting now 10 pages, i dont want be rude, but just remembering that the ideia of this post was making a Epona 2 cause there is too much people going to Epona, if u like free or dom server shouldn't matter. Feel free to keep discuting here, even because i dont think Epona 2 gonna happen anyway. U guys write sooo much

Eragon123 wrote:Zkills, it may not make any sense to you as to how players can be happy with DKP instead of a roll system. Or with a single dominant clan instead of a clan alliance (which is essentially what Epona is). However, please recognize that not everyone is like you...and just because you don't see the appeal in a different system, doesn't mean that there is none. The beauty in humanity is that everyone is different, and has different opinions on different topics

I understand people have their own preferences. I’m playing on both Epona and a dom server currently, and I enjoy both in their own respective ways. I can go to Epona to chill out a bit more and then go play on the dom server whenever I want to grind away or talk to the good people there. I’d gladly play in a dom clan as long as the people are good, because it’s really the people who can make or break the experience.

I’m not arguing from the stance of “Epona is the greatest so let’s make more Epona like servers” like the OP is suggesting. I’m arguing from the standpoint of trying to make this game more successful than it is now and try and make this game grow. After carefully thinking about it and then looking at the history of this game and other servers, it has become clear to me that making every server essentially free is the only way this game can become successful and grow. Although not in the same way Epona is, because Epona isn’t perfect either. That’s why I’ve been pushing for the loot distribution change.

The game has been stale for the longest time now with the vast majority of servers being dominant, there has been hardly any growth especially at endgame, and players are leaving far too quickly under dominance. People don’t buy as much plat on dominant servers as well which then I believe reflects on VR and their willingness to create more quality content. There needs to be change, and that change needs to be with the loot distribution. Sometimes in life you need to sacrifice something small for the greater good of the larger picture. I can bet a lot of companies do not enjoy letting people go, but sometimes it’s necessary. I’m certain the players here can sacrifice their dominance over their server for the greater good of the game. It’s a small price to pay, otherwise in a few years Celtic Heroes might not even be a thing anymore.

I am really good at strategic planning, it’s a gift that I am fortunate to have that runs in my family. Anyone who knows me irl knows that lol. I love coming here to share my insight because I truly care for this game, I’ve been playing since 6th grade over 8 years ago, and now I’m in college. Lots of good memories with the people I’ve met over the years, and it would be a shame to see it all go away when the problem can so easily be fixed. Yes all things eventually come to end, but this game is something truly unique and special that no other game can possibly replicate, and this game deserves to live on longer than anyone could expect.

bob the mage wrote:Then lets establish an argument for that, can we agree game has health and a future if1) the devs make more money than it costs to keep the game afloat (make a profit)2) a critical mass of players exists (so game still can happen3) people are happy

I have been trying to argue those three points the entire time.1. Free servers incentivize people to buy more plat2. Free servers attract newer players and give current players more reasons to be active. Dominance pushes more new players away than attracts, and dominance discourages players from being active, only logging for 15mins when a boss is due (some servers even struggle to gather for some bosses).3. Dominance by far creates more unhappy people than a free server. People being restricted from endgame content because of their clan, toxic environments fueled by competition, dkp/attendance creating internal problems in clans, etc...

Sigh... you are blind and not willing to even consider that more than just apples exist in this universe... let me try an analogy...

Suppose you like chocolate chip cookies. Just because you like chocolate chip cookies doesn’t mean they are the only cookies that can be liked. In fact, you can also like ginger snaps let’s say. It’s possible for more than one thing to be good... even if one is “better” under one subjective framework, doesn’t mean the other is “bad.”

In other words, both dom servers and “free” servers (in quotes cuz you have to buy everything lel), are fair options.

1) dom servers make plenty of money for the game as well. Not as much as players on a server where you have to buy everything to progress, but that’s why so many players like it, they don’t have to buy plat or do a ridiculous amount of merching or farming.2) critical player mass: dom servers may not have 100 players at a boss, but they have more players at bosses than the other servers that tried to adopt a free server set up... Epona is a unique case, it can’t be copied and pasted, it’s been tried. Dom server set up only one that really works outside of Epona.3) players happy: this goes to what I was saying above. I have only played on a dom server since December 2012. I was in a comp clan from 2013 to 2016 that legit had 8 people in it (we dominated DL bosses and Hrung, but that was it). I was then in a dominant clan from 2016 to present... I’ve done it all? I’ve seen it all on a dom server. I even ran my own clan for a good portion of 2013 that did pretty well. I have also tried out 2 free servers. Personally I gave up on the free servers including Epona cuz I didn’t feel like having to pay for everything, I’d rather work for it another way.

Using these 3 points as the critical points, if both server types meet all 3 which they in fact do, then it doesn’t matter what type a server is. Multiple server types, so players can pick what they want. Same way you have tons migrate you Epona you have just as many leaving to go to dom servers. Nothing wrong with that

You are getting the wrong idea about Epona. You seem to think that Epona is a pay to win server which is far from the case. Sure buying plat helps, but someone who doesn’t buy plat can be just as good as someone who does, if not even better than someone who buys plat as long as they show up to many bosses. You will win drops eventually, and you will make money off it if you decide to sell instead of keep.

Now imagine if every server became free under this new loot distribution. You will actually be geared faster than you would in either Epona or a dom server, while also requiring half the effort required in a dom clan with dkp. Not only are your chances of getting loot higher, but you’ll also be able to buy and sell any drop you want. That’ll make everyone more happy, and that’ll incentivize (not force) more people to buy plat, which then reflects onto VR positively. That’ll also make every market free which we all know is a very good thing. For players on current free servers, it’ll fix the issue of extremely low chances at loot due to high attendances at bosses, and for dom servers it’ll turn this game into an actual game versus the part time job known as dkp/attendance, which ultimately makes players on both sides more happy. And yes it’s true the dominance makes more unhappy people than happy. Why do you think a majority of the complaints come from dom servers and all of the negative feedback/reviews for this game originate from dom servers (looking at the App Store and various other review platforms)?

I too have played in just about every scenario. Dkp, voting, underdog clan, dom clan, solo, small clan of friends, free server, feeder clan, and even ran my own clan back in 2013 or 2014 named rebellion where I was voted as chief and we managed to do well for a few months and gain traction before we decided to split up. I’ve also been playing since February 2012, 8 years now... And through all of my experiences and generally being an unbiased person, I can safely say free servers are the best option for this game if this game wants to be successful. I have seen and know of the advantages and disadvantages of both systems.

Zkills, Proud general of the beloved KodiakReavers of Belenus, the G.O.A.T clan

Zkills wrote:You are getting the wrong idea about Epona. You seem to think that Epona is a pay to win server which is far from the case. Sure buying plat helps, but someone who doesn’t buy plat can be just as good as someone who does, if not even better than someone who buys plat as long as they show up to many bosses. You will win drops eventually, and you will make money off it if you decide to sell instead of keep.

Now imagine if every server became free under this new loot distribution. You will actually be geared faster than you would in either Epona or a dom server, while also requiring half the effort required in a dom clan with dkp. Not only are your chances of getting loot higher, but you’ll also be able to buy and sell any drop you want. That’ll make everyone more happy, and that’ll incentivize (not force) more people to buy plat, which then reflects onto VR positively. That’ll also make every market free which we all know is a very good thing. For players on current free servers, it’ll fix the issue of extremely low chances at loot due to high attendances at bosses, and for dom servers it’ll turn this game into an actual game versus the part time job known as dkp/attendance, which ultimately makes players on both sides more happy. And yes it’s true the dominance makes more unhappy people than happy. Why do you think a majority of the complaints come from dom servers and all of the negative feedback/reviews for this game originate from dom servers (looking at the App Store and various other review platforms)?

I too have played in just about every scenario. Dkp, voting, underdog clan, dom clan, solo, small clan of friends, free server, feeder clan, and even ran my own clan back in 2013 or 2014 named rebellion where I was voted as chief and we managed to do well for a few months and gain traction before we decided to split up. I’ve also been playing since February 2012, 8 years now... And through all of my experiences and generally being an unbiased person, I can safely say free servers are the best option for this game if this game wants to be successful. I have seen and know of the advantages and disadvantages of both systems.

It’s a matter of preference, Epona is more P2W by far compared to any dom server, and I completely disagree with any playstyle where gold or outside resources affect what you can get in game.

See what I mean? It’s all preference... legit that’s all it is. For me Epona was too pay to win, and for you a dom server was too constrained on what you could do.

It’s all on a scale and there are plenty of servers out there each with their own unique systems

Zkills wrote:You are getting the wrong idea about Epona. You seem to think that Epona is a pay to win server which is far from the case. Sure buying plat helps, but someone who doesn’t buy plat can be just as good as someone who does, if not even better than someone who buys plat as long as they show up to many bosses. You will win drops eventually, and you will make money off it if you decide to sell instead of keep.

Now imagine if every server became free under this new loot distribution. You will actually be geared faster than you would in either Epona or a dom server, while also requiring half the effort required in a dom clan with dkp. Not only are your chances of getting loot higher, but you’ll also be able to buy and sell any drop you want. That’ll make everyone more happy, and that’ll incentivize (not force) more people to buy plat, which then reflects onto VR positively. That’ll also make every market free which we all know is a very good thing. For players on current free servers, it’ll fix the issue of extremely low chances at loot due to high attendances at bosses, and for dom servers it’ll turn this game into an actual game versus the part time job known as dkp/attendance, which ultimately makes players on both sides more happy. And yes it’s true the dominance makes more unhappy people than happy. Why do you think a majority of the complaints come from dom servers and all of the negative feedback/reviews for this game originate from dom servers (looking at the App Store and various other review platforms)?

I too have played in just about every scenario. Dkp, voting, underdog clan, dom clan, solo, small clan of friends, free server, feeder clan, and even ran my own clan back in 2013 or 2014 named rebellion where I was voted as chief and we managed to do well for a few months and gain traction before we decided to split up. I’ve also been playing since February 2012, 8 years now... And through all of my experiences and generally being an unbiased person, I can safely say free servers are the best option for this game if this game wants to be successful. I have seen and know of the advantages and disadvantages of both systems.

It’s a matter of preference, Epona is more P2W by far compared to any dom server, and I completely disagree with any playstyle where gold or outside resources affect what you can get in game.

See what I mean? It’s all preference... legit that’s all it is. For me Epona was too pay to win, and for you a dom server was too constrained on what you could do.

It’s all on a scale and there are plenty of servers out there each with their own unique systems

Working off of “preference” isn’t what makes things successful. Just because you prefer something doesn’t automatically make it the right thing. This game has run on “preference” for far too long and it has gotten us no where. Now VR is developing a new game and as much as I hate to think about it, that could mean the end of Celtic Heroes in a few years if change isn’t made now. We have proven time and time again that we can’t handle the ability to do what we want or prefer. Dominance has chased away more players than we could possibly count that would otherwise still be here if things were different, and Epona wouldn’t be the only good option to escape dominance, because now they are overpopulated which is causing too many problems. Believe it or not, those who are in dominant clans make up for a small percentage of the total player base, meaning yes, there is a much bigger world outside of your enclosed vision inside the walls of a dominant clan. Maybe if people here stepped outside of those walls they’ll see just how bad things are. And no, I do not mean being inside an underdog clan because a majority of those clans are simply mini versions of the dom clan, blinded by competition and hate for the dominant clan and if they were to come to power, would do the exact same things the previous dominant clan did (we’ve already seen it with clans like Havoc, Nova, Pegasus and Toxic).

VR needs to take back control of their own game and stop letting players run wild with it, doing whatever they want, slowly destroying this once great game that OTM has built up all those years ago. It’s no secret that this game has lost its charm, and the players are the ones to blame with the lack of content coming in second. But what good does making new content do when the players will just take it and destroy it. This game still has so much potential. It’s like a gold mine yet to be uncovered

Zkills, Proud general of the beloved KodiakReavers of Belenus, the G.O.A.T clan