thomps:has america ever been first in these studies? the media makes a big deal out of our slipping advantage in educated kids, but i feel like i've been hearing that same story my entire life.

From about the time this went up:

to the time we did this:

There was a massive concerted and antional effort to improve Math and science skills in this country and train more scientists and engineers since it was consiered a matter of national security. After that? Not so much.

thomps:timujin: Perhaps because instead of focusing on "skills" the modern education system focuses on passing standardized tests.

then why didn't we do better on this standardized test?

Kind of my point. They focus so much on passing one particular test, rather than learning simply how arithmetic and mathematics work, that when presented with anything other than that test students perform poorly.

Magorn:thomps: has america ever been first in these studies? the media makes a big deal out of our slipping advantage in educated kids, but i feel like i've been hearing that same story my entire life.

From about the time this went up:[www.vibrationdata.com image 259x186]

to the time we did this:

[static.ddmcdn.com image 400x394]

There was a massive concerted and antional effort to improve Math and science skills in this country and train more scientists and engineers since it was consiered a matter of national security. After that? Not so much.

We don't care much about edumacating our kids unless there's bragging rights to be gained over godless commies.

thomps:timujin: Perhaps because instead of focusing on "skills" the modern education system focuses on passing standardized tests.

then why didn't we do better on this standardized test?

I think the key word that you need to realize here is "standardized". See, to a naive person, that word means that everybody does it in the same way--or in this case everybody teaches to the same test.That's not the case however, you see. I'll refer you to the dictionary definition of the word standardize:standardize (v.): to do something in a ridiculous way, that is different from the ridiculous way that other countries do it.

See, I hope that clears things up. Those Korean kids, they're just not meeting the right standards.

American students do as well as anyone on the planet, right up to about 8th grade, where they fall off a cliff.

This indicates to me that our educational problems are not systemic to the educational system, but systemic to the culture. When kids hit that age, they become much more socially aware and subject to the "it's cool to be dumb" pop-culture we now live in.

timujin:Perhaps because instead of focusing on "skills" the modern education system focuses on passing standardized tests.

We always complain about test scores of Americans vs, in particular, east asians (but also, in some ways, south asians), but...

Here's the thing, at least in my experience, while many high performing east and south asian students can kick your ass in mechanical / rote recollection and application, there is a seeming lack of teaching folks how to do non-linear problem solving in their educational institutions. So, if you run into a problem that isn't a "yellow + blue = green" situation, usually North American and Western European students will start to show the areas they excel within.

It's similar to the problem I saw expressed by the Editor-in-Chief from Yen Press in that the submissions from new artists for comic series from Japanese and Korean amateurs have top notch visual artwork, but the stories are usually pretty linear and by-the-numbers, while the North American submissions often don't reach those same lofty visual heights, but the stories tend to be more often less straight-forward or formulaic affairs.

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats:timujin: Perhaps because instead of focusing on "skills" the modern education system focuses on passing standardized tests.

We always complain about test scores of Americans vs, in particular, east asians (but also, in some ways, south asians), but...

Here's the thing, at least in my experience, while many high performing east and south asian students can kick your ass in mechanical / rote recollection and application, there is a seeming lack of teaching folks how to do non-linear problem solving in their educational institutions. So, if you run into a problem that isn't a "yellow + blue = green" situation, usually North American and Western European students will start to show the areas they excel within.

It's similar to the problem I saw expressed by the Editor-in-Chief from Yen Press in that the submissions from new artists for comic series from Japanese and Korean amateurs have top notch visual artwork, but the stories are usually pretty linear and by-the-numbers, while the North American submissions often don't reach those same lofty visual heights, but the stories tend to be more often less straight-forward or formulaic affairs.

The word needs both kinds of people, of course.

Absolutely true, But that doesn't really address the fact that as our student's abilities have been steadily decreasing over the last couple of decades, our engineering and scientific workforce has declined as well. People talk about unemployment problems, but there are a ton of jobs out there that can't be filled because we don't have enough qualified candidates in those disciplines. Being able to create less formulaic stories has left us with more unemployed hipsters and fewer PhD's.

timujin:People talk about unemployment problems, but there are a ton of jobs out there that can't be filled because we don't have enough qualified candidates in those disciplines

I dunno, most of the time this is not exactly true in my experience.

By far the most common scenario (outside of rather demanding and esoteric medical fields) is that the folks looking to hire people for those "tons of jobs" don't want to pay the going rate for experienced people in those positions, and then bemoan the fact that they can't find a "qualified candidate" for their cut-rate offer.

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats:timujin: People talk about unemployment problems, but there are a ton of jobs out there that can't be filled because we don't have enough qualified candidates in those disciplines

I dunno, most of the time this is not exactly true in my experience.

By far the most common scenario (outside of rather demanding and esoteric medical fields) is that the folks looking to hire people for those "tons of jobs" don't want to pay the going rate for experienced people in those positions, and then bemoan the fact that they can't find a "qualified candidate" for their cut-rate offer.

Perhaps, but the articles I've read almost always point to a lack of qualified candidates, whether in nursing (especially in nursing, actually), IT, engineering or other such disciplines that require an understanding of math and/or science.

timujin:TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: timujin: People talk about unemployment problems, but there are a ton of jobs out there that can't be filled because we don't have enough qualified candidates in those disciplines

I dunno, most of the time this is not exactly true in my experience.

By far the most common scenario (outside of rather demanding and esoteric medical fields) is that the folks looking to hire people for those "tons of jobs" don't want to pay the going rate for experienced people in those positions, and then bemoan the fact that they can't find a "qualified candidate" for their cut-rate offer.

Perhaps, but the articles I've read almost always point to a lack of qualified candidates, whether in nursing (especially in nursing, actually), IT, engineering or other such disciplines that require an understanding of math and/or science.

Nursing is a demand field right now, though the pay for qualified applicants is actually in-line.

I can tell you that in IT it is *routinely* the case that companies underbid, basically because they can then justify an H1B. I watched my own company need but not hire anyone for an Oracle DBA position for 18 months because they didn't want to pay the going rate for someone with the skillset required.

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats:I can tell you that in IT it is *routinely* the case that companies underbid, basically because they can then justify an H1B. I watched my own company need but not hire anyone for an Oracle DBA position for 18 months because they didn't want to pay the going rate for someone with the skillset required.

If I'm operating that business, and I have an open rec for 18 months, it would make me question the need for the position in the first place.

Rent Party:TheBeastOfYuccaFlats:I can tell you that in IT it is *routinely* the case that companies underbid, basically because they can then justify an H1B. I watched my own company need but not hire anyone for an Oracle DBA position for 18 months because they didn't want to pay the going rate for someone with the skillset required.

If I'm operating that business, and I have an open rec for 18 months, it would make me question the need for the position in the first place.

It was a situation where the existing people could do station-holding on issues basically forever, but it required someone with a more advanced skillset and prior experience to move forward. I have no doubt that there was a business impact in terms of new project progress.

timujin:TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: timujin: Perhaps because instead of focusing on "skills" the modern education system focuses on passing standardized tests.

We always complain about test scores of Americans vs, in particular, east asians (but also, in some ways, south asians), but...

Here's the thing, at least in my experience, while many high performing east and south asian students can kick your ass in mechanical / rote recollection and application, there is a seeming lack of teaching folks how to do non-linear problem solving in their educational institutions. So, if you run into a problem that isn't a "yellow + blue = green" situation, usually North American and Western European students will start to show the areas they excel within.

It's similar to the problem I saw expressed by the Editor-in-Chief from Yen Press in that the submissions from new artists for comic series from Japanese and Korean amateurs have top notch visual artwork, but the stories are usually pretty linear and by-the-numbers, while the North American submissions often don't reach those same lofty visual heights, but the stories tend to be more often less straight-forward or formulaic affairs.

The word needs both kinds of people, of course.

Absolutely true, But that doesn't really address the fact that as our student's abilities have been steadily decreasing over the last couple of decades, our engineering and scientific workforce has declined as well. People talk about unemployment problems, but there are a ton of jobs out there that can't be filled because we don't have enough qualified candidates in those disciplines. Being able to create less formulaic stories has left us with more unemployed hipsters and fewer PhD's.

Qualified scientists & engineers get paid poorly. Companies would rather hire a college grad than someone with 25 years experience in the field. If you're over 50, good luck finding any engineering/science jobs at all.

The other thing that is often left out: the USA educates a higher percentage of its children than other countries. These studies are about as useful as comparing elite prep schools to the average American school.

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats:timujin: People talk about unemployment problems, but there are a ton of jobs out there that can't be filled because we don't have enough qualified candidates in those disciplines

I dunno, most of the time this is not exactly true in my experience.

By far the most common scenario (outside of rather demanding and esoteric medical fields) is that the folks looking to hire people for those "tons of jobs" don't want to pay the going rate for experienced people in those positions, and then bemoan the fact that they can't find a "qualified candidate" for their cut-rate offer.

My company probably has a couple hundred openings right now, and we pay well. Finding good IT people who are also good at interacting with customers is hard. We have non-IT jobs too, and the dearth of talent is so great we pay bonuses for referrals.

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats:timujin: TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: timujin: People talk about unemployment problems, but there are a ton of jobs out there that can't be filled because we don't have enough qualified candidates in those disciplines

I dunno, most of the time this is not exactly true in my experience.

By far the most common scenario (outside of rather demanding and esoteric medical fields) is that the folks looking to hire people for those "tons of jobs" don't want to pay the going rate for experienced people in those positions, and then bemoan the fact that they can't find a "qualified candidate" for their cut-rate offer.

Perhaps, but the articles I've read almost always point to a lack of qualified candidates, whether in nursing (especially in nursing, actually), IT, engineering or other such disciplines that require an understanding of math and/or science.

Nursing is a demand field right now, though the pay for qualified applicants is actually in-line.

I can tell you that in IT it is *routinely* the case that companies underbid, basically because they can then justify an H1B. I watched my own company need but not hire anyone for an Oracle DBA position for 18 months because they didn't want to pay the going rate for someone with the skillset required.

my wife is an RN certified. Pediatric Trauma and transport experience. She can't find a job. The reason...despite meeting the level of Registered Nurse, she only has an associates in Nursing. The potential employers say she needs a Bacherlors. She contacted some nursing schools about getting a BSN. They reviewed her transcript and there wasn't a single nursing course they said she should take. All of the courses she needs are liberal arts stuff- English, History, Intro to microcomputing, etc...It's almost insulting. Then she looked at all the people they are hiring for those jobs...Haiti, Philliphines, Central America...they are registered nurses but none of them have Bachelors. Seems like they can hire them for cheaper though.

Magorn:thomps: has america ever been first in these studies? the media makes a big deal out of our slipping advantage in educated kids, but i feel like i've been hearing that same story my entire life.

From about the time this went up:[www.vibrationdata.com image 259x186]

to the time we did this:

[static.ddmcdn.com image 400x394]

There was a massive concerted and antional effort to improve Math and science skills in this country and train more scientists and engineers since it was consiered a matter of national security. After that? Not so much.

That's because we won. Who keeps training after they win and there are no more competitions??

In 5-6 years when they can vote, and the Democrats tell them that you can print money forever without it losing value, they'll buy right in.

This has been a long time in coming - no more civics classes in school, immigration reform, complete disconnection of cause from effect by welfare programs, endless debt and decay of the educational system - we're at the point where people will march right off the cliff when asked.

CruJones:Asians are better than us at math and science? Who would have guessed?

Math sure, its just memorizing formulas usually. Science...if its anything remotely related to rote memorization or just relaying of facts, sure. Asians are like computers. Think amazingly fast, spit out great data. But at the risk of already sounding incredibly generalizing, if it has to do with creativity or unorthodox thinking, they'll just sit there with a "C:\" blank look on their faces. With rare exceptions such as certain entertainment or robotic fields (which in the case of robotics is really just the study of mechanical movement, or physics, so again there its just math) most of the truly groundbreaking scientific theory and discovery comes from the US and Western nations.

Rent Party:American students do as well as anyone on the planet, right up to about 8th grade, where they fall off a cliff.

This indicates to me that our educational problems are not systemic to the educational system, but systemic to the culture. When kids hit that age, they become much more socially aware and subject to the "it's cool to be dumb" pop-culture we now live in.

Oh, now you are just being logical. Stop that.

Consider too that many middle and high school teachers do not have degrees in mathematic, but have only taken a course in teaching mathematics. Now combine your idea with this one and add that so many of these kids parents have the flawed "I never used algebra after high school, so it's a waste of time" mentality and you've pretty much nailed the causes.