he s not as bad as i thought but those stats IMO are not particularly useful - he is almost always the worse of the 2 fielding 3B in the lineup on whatever particular night (except when we played baltimore w betemit). he still misses a ton of balls that dont get called errors that IMO other 3B get. its probably about 1 ball per series on average.

You really can't argue the PO stat, that proves the exact opposite of what you are saying. Not only are more ball hit his way, he's also fielding the majority of them.

Give it up. You will never get them to admit they were wrong. Apparently, they think it will make them look vulnerable and weak or something. LOL

he s not as bad as i thought but those stats IMO are not particularly useful - he is almost always the worse of the 2 fielding 3B in the lineup on whatever particular night (except when we played baltimore w betemit). he still misses a ton of balls that dont get called errors that IMO other 3B get. its probably about 1 ball per series on average.

You really can't argue the PO stat, that proves the exact opposite of what you are saying. Not only are more ball hit his way, he's also fielding the majority of them.

Give it up. You will never get them to admit they were wrong. Apparently, they think it will make them look vulnerable and weak or something. LOL

This.

You guys are joking, right?

The issue isn't what Cabrera does with the balls that he does field, it's his complete lack of range. I think it was the Angles that were bunting on him left and right, and getting infield hits his way. When he has to dive for a ball he almost never gets the guy out at first base. He's flat out not athletic enough to get 220lbs off of the ground and fire the ball to first on time.

He's gotten better with errors in the last two months, he and Prince looked like keystone cops for a while there in May/June, but you can't argue that Prince sucks at first and Cabrera has absolutely zero range. Pair that with Jhonny and we have a horrible left infield. It's a sad that Infante and/or Santiago are our best infield glove(s).

August 1st, 2012, 2:51 pm

aManNamedSuh

Heisman Winner

Joined: July 14th, 2005, 11:58 amPosts: 820

Re: Tigers sign Prince Fielder to nine-year, $214 million de

wjb21ndtown wrote:

You guys are joking, right?

The issue isn't what Cabrera does with the balls that he does field, it's his complete lack of range. I think it was the Angles that were bunting on him left and right, and getting infield hits his way. When he has to dive for a ball he almost never gets the guy out at first base. He's flat out not athletic enough to get 220lbs off of the ground and fire the ball to first on time.

He's gotten better with errors in the last two months, he and Prince looked like keystone cops for a while there in May/June, but you can't argue that Prince sucks at first and Cabrera has absolutely zero range. Pair that with Jhonny and we have a horrible left infield. It's a sad that Infante and/or Santiago are our best infield glove(s).

Go ahead and go by feelings and your firm stance but I'm giving you hard facts that can't be denied. Cabrera also has the 4th most Total Chances of all 3rd Baseman. He has good range for a 3B, I would agree that his range was horrible if he were a SS. And don't change your original argument of:

wjb21ndtown wrote:

Miggy can't play 3rd. We tried that a few times and it never worked. I don't know if he put on weight, or what the problem was, but he sucked st 3rd here.

and

wjb21ndtown wrote:

All of this is predicated on Miggy playing 3rd, which I happen to think is a horrible idea.

and

wjb21ndtown wrote:

Last time we tried him at 3rd he was disgruntled about it, it rattled confidence, and his offense was effected. Factor that into your equation.

and

wjb21ndtown wrote:

My early prediction on the trade is that:1) Miggy is going to be horrible at 3rd2) He will turn his frustration outward and blame others, namely losing his position at first3) There will be a rift between Miggy and Prince, even if it is small4) Neither will want to DH as their primary role5) Miggy will be the DH, reluctantly, but his offensive numbers will not be as good as they were6) There will be talk of Detroit needing to trade one of them7) Much like the Renteria deal, we won't be as good as people think

Stop being stubborn and admit you are wrong about Cabby at 3rd, Period.

August 1st, 2012, 4:56 pm

wjb21ndtown

Re: Tigers sign Prince Fielder to nine-year, $214 million de

aManNamedSuh wrote:

wjb21ndtown wrote:

My early prediction on the trade is that:1) Miggy is going to be horrible at 3rd2) He will turn his frustration outward and blame others, namely losing his position at first3) There will be a rift between Miggy and Prince, even if it is small4) Neither will want to DH as their primary role5) Miggy will be the DH, reluctantly, but his offensive numbers will not be as good as they were6) There will be talk of Detroit needing to trade one of them7) Much like the Renteria deal, we won't be as good as people think

Stop being stubborn and admit you are wrong about Cabby at 3rd, Period.

I'll admit that I was wrong about Miggy moving to third hurting his offensive numbers and everything predicated with that portion of my prediction, and I'm glad about that. However, there WAS talk of needing to trade Miggy or Prince in June. They have since started playing better, but there was talk of it, and we're not as good as people thought we would be, period. We're clearly the 2nd best team in this division, especially with what the White Sox did via the trade deadline.

I'll admit that Miggy hasn't been as bad at third as I thought he would be, but numbers aside, I don't know how anyone can watch him play every day and think he's doing a good job over there.

August 1st, 2012, 5:12 pm

aManNamedSuh

Heisman Winner

Joined: July 14th, 2005, 11:58 amPosts: 820

Re: Tigers sign Prince Fielder to nine-year, $214 million de

wjb21ndtown wrote:

I'll admit that I was wrong about Miggy moving to third hurting his offensive numbers and everything predicated with that portion of my prediction, and I'm glad about that. However, there WAS talk of needing to trade Miggy or Prince in June. They have since started playing better, but there was talk of it, and we're not as good as people thought we would be, period. We're clearly the 2nd best team in this division, especially with what the White Sox did via the trade deadline.

I'll admit that Miggy hasn't been as bad at third as I thought he would be, but numbers aside, I don't know how anyone can watch him play every day and think he's doing a good job over there.

Thank you.

I also agree I don't think he's doing a good job over there, I think he's doing an outstanding job at third.

August 1st, 2012, 6:37 pm

wjb21ndtown

Re: Tigers sign Prince Fielder to nine-year, $214 million de

You have some very low standards, but I stand by my initial assertion that we would have been better off leaving Miggy at 1st and getting a 2nd, 3rd baseman and solid relief pitcher last offseason.

August 1st, 2012, 6:44 pm

aManNamedSuh

Heisman Winner

Joined: July 14th, 2005, 11:58 amPosts: 820

Re: Tigers sign Prince Fielder to nine-year, $214 million de

wjb21ndtown wrote:

You have some very low standards, but I stand by my initial assertion that we would have been better off leaving Miggy at 1st and getting a 2nd, 3rd baseman and solid relief pitcher last offseason.

That I don't disagree with, unfortunately we weren't using your money this past offseason.

August 1st, 2012, 7:19 pm

The Legend

Off. Coordinator – Joe Lombardi

Joined: February 11th, 2005, 3:01 pmPosts: 4080Location: WSU

Re: Tigers sign Prince Fielder to nine-year, $214 million de

aManNamedSuh wrote:

The Legend wrote:

he s not as bad as i thought but those stats IMO are not particularly useful - he is almost always the worse of the 2 fielding 3B in the lineup on whatever particular night (except when we played baltimore w betemit). he still misses a ton of balls that dont get called errors that IMO other 3B get. its probably about 1 ball per series on average.

You really can't argue the PO stat, that proves the exact opposite of what you are saying. Not only are more ball hit his way, he's also fielding the majority of them.

of course i can argue it. you listed a compiled stat without mentioning that cabrera is also 2nd in the majors innings played or noting that only 16 MLB 3b "qualify"

Quote:

tied for 6th ranked 3rd baseman at Fielding Percentage

fielding percentage is a useless stat. for example a hard hit ball was hit directly to cabrera last week and it played off his chest off a long hop and deflected into left field but was ruled a hit. that doesnt affect fielding percentage but a better defender probably makes the play. when cabrera gets bunted at and makes a clean albeit slow play and the runner is safe at first - the batter gets a hit and nothing is charged of the fielder even thoug a better defender would have made the play. if he lacks the range to get to a ball that someone else might get, it gets listed as a hit, etc fielding percentage is largely a useless stat.

Quote:

6th ranked 3rd baseman in Range Factor

if you look at players that have played 20 games or more at 3b then cabrera ranks 20th.

Quote:

9th least errors for 3rd baseman

again this is for qualifiers of which there are only 16 players, so that puts him in the middle but still in the bottom half (9/16)

Quote:

1st in Put outs

a compiled stat - he is 2nd in innings. Putouts are plays where he catches a ball in the air or applies a tag on someone. it doesnt say that much about range. if you look at assists - when cabrera fields a ball and then throws someone out at a base he ranks 7th among the 16 qualifiers despite being 2nd in innings. for example david freese and pedro alvarez have played more than 100 less innings than cabrera but both have more assists. still impressed?

August 2nd, 2012, 3:54 pm

The Legend

Off. Coordinator – Joe Lombardi

Joined: February 11th, 2005, 3:01 pmPosts: 4080Location: WSU

Re: Tigers sign Prince Fielder to nine-year, $214 million de

im going to compare cabrera to freese. freese is a player considered average defensively but even last year before he really established himself LaRussa routinely replaced him for defensive purposes. Freese makes an average of 2.02 assists per 9 innings at 3B while Cabrera averages 1.69 assists per 9 innings. If you average that over a 3 game series the difference is 1 play per series - which is pretty much what i ve been saying all along.

Ultimate zone rating shows Cabrera ranked 3rd from last defensively in the big leagues with his lowest mark being in the range category of which he is worst among all qualifiers at -10.5 runs saved due to range alone. We may be a little spoiled as Brandon Inge is 1st in range runs saved at +8.4. Regardless this shows Cabrera as not having much range which is obvious if you watch the Tigers on a regular basis.

Ultimate zone rating shows Cabrera ranked 3rd from last defensively in the big leagues with his lowest mark being in the range category of which he is worst among all qualifiers at -10.5 runs saved due to range alone. We may be a little spoiled as Brandon Inge is 1st in range runs saved at +8.4. Regardless this shows Cabrera as not having much range which is obvious if you watch the Tigers on a regular basis.

Sorry I missed the well respected fangraphs.com in my research. Also, I will only count qualified players due to the misleading sample size of the non-qualified players, that is why you need to qualify before you are really counted to begin with.

The fact is Cabrera is one of the highest ranked 3B in the game this year and his play shows it. You can point to a handful of instances where Cabrera didn't make a play that player xyz would have, but that's purely speculation.

and INGE? again

August 2nd, 2012, 8:09 pm

The Legend

Off. Coordinator – Joe Lombardi

Joined: February 11th, 2005, 3:01 pmPosts: 4080Location: WSU

Re: Tigers sign Prince Fielder to nine-year, $214 million de

thats ur rebuttal? that the stat came off fangraphs website? how about defending the stats you used? the uzr stat is far closer to what scouts think than any of the stats you cited, in fact it only exists bc of how poor the stats you cited really are as far as reflecting a players abilities. watch a game, get a clue then get back to me.

August 2nd, 2012, 8:51 pm

aManNamedSuh

Heisman Winner

Joined: July 14th, 2005, 11:58 amPosts: 820

Re: Tigers sign Prince Fielder to nine-year, $214 million de

The Legend wrote:

thats ur rebuttal? that the stat came off fangraphs website? how about defending the stats you used? the uzr stat is far closer to what scouts think than any of the stats you cited, in fact it only exists bc of how poor the stats you cited really are as far as reflecting a players abilities. watch a game, get a clue then get back to me.

I've watched just about every game this season, I don't need to defend my stats as they are the standard.

August 2nd, 2012, 8:54 pm

The Legend

Off. Coordinator – Joe Lombardi

Joined: February 11th, 2005, 3:01 pmPosts: 4080Location: WSU

Re: Tigers sign Prince Fielder to nine-year, $214 million de

that has nothing to do with whether or not they reflect anything of value. your logic is the equivalent of judging a quarterback by completed passes without looking at total attempts, yards per pass attempt, or the time period involved in completing those passes. its okay some people choose not to think or in this case read or believe what they see with there own two eyes. thats fine - continue to be wrong and use data that indicates brennan boesch as the 6th best RF in MLB when he s awful or Austin Jackson as a middle of the pack CF when he s one of the best.

August 2nd, 2012, 10:53 pm

aManNamedSuh

Heisman Winner

Joined: July 14th, 2005, 11:58 amPosts: 820

Re: Tigers sign Prince Fielder to nine-year, $214 million de

Dude, if you watched the games you would have probably known that Jackson missed something around 20 games so that is why he ranks in the middle of the pack in several of these categories but if you look at them on the whole he ranks very well (tied for first in Fielding percentage). But that would hurt your argument.

As for Boesch, more incomplete data on your end. Total changes he ranks 21st, Put Outs 20th, Range Factor 21st (last of qualified players). His fielding percentage is decent but only because he hasn't had the changes that the rest of the RF have had (6th).

I'll continue looking at the number the way I always have because they tell the whole story. You can't look at one stat and say 'There you have it'. I'm not claiming that Cabby is a Gold glover over there but I think he more than capable and anyone who disagrees with that is looking at it with an agenda. The fact of the matter is Cabby has outperformed everyone expectation, which in my opinion means he doing a great job.