After the Chik-fil-a drama of this summer, there appears to be another one developing and it revolves around Obamacare. I am curious as to what people think about this?

Also, keep in mind that through Obamacare, and a little known provision called Dhimmitude, Muslims are not required to purchase "health insurance" because it's seen as gambling, or risk taking and is against their religion. Yet Christians believe that abortion is a form of murder, and it is against their beliefs, but the Catholic Church on down, are being required to follow the law despite their religious convictions, seems hypocritical doesn't it?

Column: Christian companies can't bow to sinful mandate

By David Green

When my family and I started our company 40 years ago, we were working out of a garage on a $600 bank loan, assembling miniature picture frames. Our first retail store wasn't much bigger than most people's living rooms, but we had faith that we would succeed if we lived and worked according to God's word. From there, Hobby Lobby has become one of the nation's largest arts and crafts retailers, with more than 500 locations in 41 states. Our children grew up into fine business leaders, and today we run Hobby Lobby together, as a family.

We're Christians, and we run our business on Christian principles. I've always said that the first two goals of our business are (1) to run our business in harmony with God's laws, and (2) to focus on people more than money. And that's what we've tried to do. We close early so our employees can see their families at night. We keep our stores closed on Sundays, one of the week's biggest shopping days, so that our workers and their families can enjoy a day of rest. We believe that it is by God's grace that Hobby Lobby has endured, and he has blessed us and our employees. We've not only added jobs in a weak economy, we've raised wages for the past four years in a row. Our full-time employees start at 80% above minimum wage.

But now, our government threatens to change all of that. A new government healthcare mandate says that our family business must provide what I believe are abortion-causing drugs as part of our health insurance. Being Christians, we don't pay for drugs that might cause abortions. Which means that we don't cover emergency contraception, the morning-after pill or the week-after pill. We believe doing so might end a life after the moment of conception, something that is contrary to our most important beliefs. It goes against the Biblical principles on which we have run this company since day one. If we refuse to comply, we could face $1.3 million per day in government fines.

Our government threatens to fine job creators in a bad economy. Our government threatens to fine a company that's raised wages four years running. Our government threatens to fine a family for running its business according to its beliefs. It's not right.

I know people will say we ought to follow the rules; that it's the same for everybody. But that's not true. The government hasexempted thousands of companies from this mandate, for reasons of convenience or cost. But it won't exempt them for reasons of religious belief. So, Hobby Lobby — and my family — are forced to make a choice. With great reluctance, we filed a lawsuit today, represented by the Becket Fund for Religious Liberty, asking a federal court to stop this mandate before it hurts our business. We don't like to go running into court, but we no longer have a choice. We believe people are more important than the bottom line and that honoring God is more important than turning a profit.

My family has lived the American dream. We want to continue growing our company and providing great jobs for thousands of employees, but the government is going to make that much more difficult. The government is forcing us to choose between following our faith and following the law. I say that's a choice no American — and no American business — should have to make.

David Green is the CEO and founder of Hobby Lobby Stores, Inc.

_________________2 Chronicles 10:14, "if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land."

After the Chik-fil-a drama of this summer, there appears to be another one developing and it revolves around Obamacare. I am curious as to what people think about this?

Also, keep in mind that through Obamacare, and a little known provision called Dhimmitude, Muslims are not required to purchase "health insurance" because it's seen as gambling, or risk taking and is against their religion. Yet Christians believe that abortion is a form of murder, and it is against their beliefs, but the Catholic Church on down, are being required to follow the law despite their religious convictions, seems hypocritical doesn't it?

Column: Christian companies can't bow to sinful mandate

By David Green

When my family and I started our company 40 years ago, we were working out of a garage on a $600 bank loan, assembling miniature picture frames. Our first retail store wasn't much bigger than most people's living rooms, but we had faith that we would succeed if we lived and worked according to God's word. From there, Hobby Lobby has become one of the nation's largest arts and crafts retailers, with more than 500 locations in 41 states. Our children grew up into fine business leaders, and today we run Hobby Lobby together, as a family.

We're Christians, and we run our business on Christian principles. I've always said that the first two goals of our business are (1) to run our business in harmony with God's laws, and (2) to focus on people more than money. And that's what we've tried to do. We close early so our employees can see their families at night. We keep our stores closed on Sundays, one of the week's biggest shopping days, so that our workers and their families can enjoy a day of rest. We believe that it is by God's grace that Hobby Lobby has endured, and he has blessed us and our employees. We've not only added jobs in a weak economy, we've raised wages for the past four years in a row. Our full-time employees start at 80% above minimum wage.

But now, our government threatens to change all of that. A new government healthcare mandate says that our family business must provide what I believe are abortion-causing drugs as part of our health insurance. Being Christians, we don't pay for drugs that might cause abortions. Which means that we don't cover emergency contraception, the morning-after pill or the week-after pill. We believe doing so might end a life after the moment of conception, something that is contrary to our most important beliefs. It goes against the Biblical principles on which we have run this company since day one. If we refuse to comply, we could face $1.3 million per day in government fines.

Our government threatens to fine job creators in a bad economy. Our government threatens to fine a company that's raised wages four years running. Our government threatens to fine a family for running its business according to its beliefs. It's not right.

I know people will say we ought to follow the rules; that it's the same for everybody. But that's not true. The government hasexempted thousands of companies from this mandate, for reasons of convenience or cost. But it won't exempt them for reasons of religious belief. So, Hobby Lobby — and my family — are forced to make a choice. With great reluctance, we filed a lawsuit today, represented by the Becket Fund for Religious Liberty, asking a federal court to stop this mandate before it hurts our business. We don't like to go running into court, but we no longer have a choice. We believe people are more important than the bottom line and that honoring God is more important than turning a profit.

My family has lived the American dream. We want to continue growing our company and providing great jobs for thousands of employees, but the government is going to make that much more difficult. The government is forcing us to choose between following our faith and following the law. I say that's a choice no American — and no American business — should have to make.

David Green is the CEO and founder of Hobby Lobby Stores, Inc.

Wrong. This is simply not true. As has been pointed out before, you really need to check the information you hear instead of just believing it and/or repeating it. Seriously. Click on this link to see just how simple it is to check the validity of the Dhimmitude statement:

_________________"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." - John Adams

“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.” - Neil deGrasse Tyson

October 3rd, 2012, 9:07 am

TheRealWags

Modmin Dude

Joined: December 31st, 2004, 9:55 amPosts: 12312

Re: What are your thoughts on this?

WarEr4Christ wrote:

Also, keep in mind that through Obamacare, and a little known provision called Dhimmitude, Muslims are not required to purchase "health insurance" because it's seen as gambling, or risk taking and is against their religion. Yet Christians believe that abortion is a form of murder, and it is against their beliefs, but the Catholic Church on down, are being required to follow the law despite their religious convictions, seems hypocritical doesn't it?

Didn't make it past this part.

FactCheck.org wrote:

“Dhimmitude” and the Muslim ExemptionPosted on May 20, 2010

Q: Will Muslim Americans be exempt from the mandate to have health insurance?

A: The Muslim faith does not forbid purchasing health insurance, and no Muslim group has ever been considered exempt under the definitions used in the health care law.

FULL QUESTION

Are Muslims exempted from the new health care law? Is any of the following chain e-mail true?

Quote:

Word of the Day: Dhimmitude

Dhimmitude is the Muslim system of controlling non-muslim populations conquered through jihad. Specifically, it is the TAXING of non-muslims in exchange for tolerating their presence AND as a coercive means of converting conquered remnants to islam.

The ObamaCare bill is the establishment of Dhimmitude and Sharia muslim diktat in the United States . Muslims are specifically exempted from the government mandate to purchase insurance, and also from the penalty tax for being uninsured. Islam considers insurance to be "gambling", "risk-taking" and "usury" and is thus banned. Muslims are specifically granted exemption based on this.

FULL ANSWER

In our article "More Malarkey About Health Care," we wrote that some religious groups may indeed be considered exempt from the requirement to have health insurance. The law defines exempt groups using the definition from 26 U.S. Code section 1402(g)(1), which describes the religious groups currently considered exempt from Social Security payroll taxes. Eligible sects must forbid any payout in the event of death, disability, old age or retirement, including Social Security and Medicare.

Since we posted our article, we’ve obtained a list through the Freedom of Information Act of all the groups that have successfully applied for exemptions from payroll taxes. (We have posted the Excel file here.) The overwhelming majority of them are explicitly Anabaptist — that is, Mennonite, Amish or Hutterite. Those that don’t specify their denomination are still explicitly Christian. Having gone through the list, we can say with certainty that no Muslim group, and indeed no non-Christian group, has ever qualified for an exemption under the statute used to define exempt religious groups in the health care law.

Nor are they likely to want to, says Ibrahim Hooper of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, which opposes discrimination and defamation against Muslims. "I’ve never even heard it brought up as an issue," Hooper told us. "I have health insurance. We give health insurance to our employees. Every Muslim group I know of does the same thing." Hooper told us that he has seen some Muslims raise religious objections to life insurance, but not health insurance, and that, in fact, providing health coverage is very much in line with Islamic ideals of social justice.

As for "dhimmitude," it’s a politically charged academic concept, not a tenet of Muslim faith. The term was coined by scholar Bat Ye’or to describe the condition of the "dhimmis," protected non-Muslims living in Muslim empires starting in the 7th century. Dhimmi populations, Ye’or says, were allowed by their lands’ Muslim conquerors to keep property and practice their faith, as long as they paid a poll tax. It is Ye’or’s assertion that the condition of dhimmitude still persists in countries under shari’a law, and that, furthermore, it is spreading worldwide. In particular, she says, Europeans are accepting a state of dhimmitude and moving toward becoming "Eurabia." This position is controversial, and Ye’or is not secretive about her political commitments. For instance, she is a vocal supporter of Geert Wilders, the Dutch politician who was once banned from the United Kingdom because of his inflammatory anti-Islam views. For the e-mail to present "dhimmitude" as an established Muslim value rather than a scholarly concept from an author with open political commitments is misleading.

Finally, the e-mail repeats one other claim we’ve debunked before. It says that "I … will face hard prison time because I refuse to buy insurance or pay the penalty tax." This is false. The House version of the bill left open the possibility of criminal penalties for deliberately evading a tax for not having health insurance, but the Senate version did not, nor did the final law.

– Jess HenigSourcesSocial Security Administration. List of recognized religious sects or divisions that the Commissioner of Social Security has determined meet the criteria of 26 U.S.C. 1402(g)(1). Compiled Oct 2009.

Interview with Ibrahim Hooper, Council on American-Islamic Relations. 20 May 2010.

You guys are putting facts in front of what someone wants to believe... Shame on you!

not shame on me! Shame on those no-GM buying, carraige riders!

I can keep this up all day...picking on a people who cant even read this? oh yeah...thats smells like fun to me!

_________________2013 Lionbacker Fantasy Football Champion

October 3rd, 2012, 11:50 am

WarEr4Christ

QB Coach

Joined: October 26th, 2005, 11:48 pmPosts: 3039Location: Elkhart, In.

Re: What are your thoughts on this?

NOPE! The shame is mine, I read through it quickly, made the assumption and passed it along, I DID NOT take the time to follow it up. SO the blame is mine, and my apologies!

I'll try to do better next time.

_________________2 Chronicles 10:14, "if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land."

October 3rd, 2012, 12:21 pm

regularjoe12

Off. Coordinator – Joe Lombardi

Joined: March 30th, 2006, 12:48 amPosts: 4006Location: Davison Mi

Re: What are your thoughts on this?

WarEr4Christ wrote:

NOPE! The shame is mine, I read through it quickly, made the assumption and passed it along, I DID NOT take the time to follow it up. SO the blame is mine, and my apologies!

I'll try to do better next time.

well...you and the people who want to put "I cant belive it's not butter" out of buisness.....they didn't look it up online either, the butter churnin sons a gunz!

_________________2013 Lionbacker Fantasy Football Champion

October 3rd, 2012, 12:48 pm

Pablo

RIP Killer

Joined: August 6th, 2004, 9:21 amPosts: 9645Location: Dallas

Re: What are your thoughts on this?

WarEr4Christ wrote:

NOPE! The shame is mine, I read through it quickly, made the assumption and passed it along, I DID NOT take the time to follow it up. SO the blame is mine, and my apologies!

I'll try to do better next time.

We are just bustin your chops bro... You posted it here and got to the bottom of it - who needs to go to snoops when you have your Lionbacker brothers to flush things out for ya!

NOPE! The shame is mine, I read through it quickly, made the assumption and passed it along, I DID NOT take the time to follow it up. SO the blame is mine, and my apologies!

I'll try to do better next time.

We are just bustin your chops bro... You posted it here and got to the bottom of it - who needs to go to snoops when you have your Lionbacker brothers to flush things out for ya!

speaking of "flushes" .....never trust a man who wipes his nose with the same rag he uses to wipe his butt! Remmeber I told you that next time you buy their "sticky buns"

_________________2013 Lionbacker Fantasy Football Champion

October 3rd, 2012, 1:10 pm

WarEr4Christ

QB Coach

Joined: October 26th, 2005, 11:48 pmPosts: 3039Location: Elkhart, In.

Re: What are your thoughts on this?

It's all good, unfortunately I used some of the same material in a discussion with I.E. and I owe him an "apology" for misinformation too! You would think I would learn not to get involved in these types of discussions but I got this concrete spacer separating my ears....

_________________2 Chronicles 10:14, "if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land."

October 3rd, 2012, 3:03 pm

regularjoe12

Off. Coordinator – Joe Lombardi

Joined: March 30th, 2006, 12:48 amPosts: 4006Location: Davison Mi

Re: What are your thoughts on this?

awww. I got this thread all set up to pick on those who cant defend themselves and no one wants to play along???

Buncha a goodie two shoes!

_________________2013 Lionbacker Fantasy Football Champion

October 3rd, 2012, 3:10 pm

WarEr4Christ

QB Coach

Joined: October 26th, 2005, 11:48 pmPosts: 3039Location: Elkhart, In.

Re: What are your thoughts on this?

Ok, I followed the link TDJ, and #3 on the google search was the info. that I "researched" and passes along. Regardless, this has led to another question.

As a Christian, if I apply for Non-Concientious Objection to Obamacare, can I still apply, or maintain my current health insurance? Or will said insurance be absorbed, or forced to change to the new Obamacare policies?

If so, my wife and I have some decisions to make about being covered by insurance or not.

_________________2 Chronicles 10:14, "if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land."

October 3rd, 2012, 3:11 pm

WarEr4Christ

QB Coach

Joined: October 26th, 2005, 11:48 pmPosts: 3039Location: Elkhart, In.

Re: What are your thoughts on this?

Come to my area you pick on the Amish and Mennonites all you want, their non-combative, and will turn the other cheek, but they will lacerate you with sarcasm....

_________________2 Chronicles 10:14, "if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land."

October 3rd, 2012, 3:12 pm

regularjoe12

Off. Coordinator – Joe Lombardi

Joined: March 30th, 2006, 12:48 amPosts: 4006Location: Davison Mi

Re: What are your thoughts on this?

WarEr4Christ wrote:

Come to my area you pick on the Amish and Mennonites all you want, their non-combative, and will turn the other cheek, but they will lacerate you with sarcasm....

Aint that the truth! they are the KINGS of sarcasm! I have a distant buddy I go visit in Mio every year, and when it comes to the game of verbal war, dude is TOPS! (but knows a lot more about current tech than i thought he would...something I never fail to call him a blasphemer for!)