From what I have read farther down on this page the answer would be no. The kits are not the same. as John played.

The spurs on the reissue kit are different along with not being a three-ply. I've seen photos from recording sessins where he just uses a snare stand to hold the rack tom but he has used both. I don't know for sure if he ever used just a swivo with the natural kit. I haven't seen enough photos. One thing I've been curious about, though. What was the actual depth of the kicks (the kit came with 2) on his natural mapel kit? They seem to look deeper than 14 inches in the pics I've seen. For that matter, did he own more than one?

One classic Bonham groove is on "Heart Breaker" It's a pretty simple groove, but listening closely reveals lots of little ghost notes and it just makes the whole thunderous groove swing a bit. Classic Bonzo!

I was listening to a bootleg recording of Zeppelin recently from Cleveland in 1977. Bonham's solo had an "Out on the Tiles" intro and just was awesome. He did some funky sound manipulation effects on his tympani, all along with his flowing groove. Very cool!

there are many zep bootleg and studio out-take sites but non seem to have a buy it now type link. does anyone know how to buy those CDs? does anyone have anything they wish to copy and sell or swap. i have a cd of studio out takes i got from a drummer a few years backBUT I WANT MORE!
j

naw. kashmir is identified by what JP jones does on the keys. bonzos huge groove there is very open but simple (which is why it is brilliant) but played alone it is not easy to identify as a bonzo groove.

You know, that's a good point, J, but I half disagree with you. I think that the beat itself, like if you were to write it out, doesn't really have anything especially identify-ing it to John Bohnam.

*but* the way he played it is so distinctively him that I think that makes the recording one of his most identifiable beats. Specifically it's his treatment of doubles on the bass drum in that song -the slow ones in the main beat. One of the things that makes his sound so massive is how he'd treat these doubles dynamically. He'd play them slightly un-evenly, putting a subtle accent on the first beat of the double. That, to me, is one of Bohnam's most distinctive and identifiable/ signature sounds. It's such a neat/brilliant trick -you don't even have to be on a drumset to hear the effect. Just tap on whatever is nearby -if no one will mind. Tap the beat for kashmir (just the bass and snare part) playing with your hands on two different surfaces. First, play bass drum part with the doubles exactly even. Next, try doing it with a slight accent on the first beat of the double and notice the difference ...even if you're just tapping on your desk.

NUTHA JASON there are many zep bootleg and studio out-take sites but non seem to have a buy it now type link. does anyone know how to buy those CDs? does anyone have anything they wish to copy and sell or swap. i have a cd of studio out takes i got from a drummer a few years backBUT I WANT MORE!

I am with you Nutha I am always looking for Zeppelin bootlegs, especially from '68-'72. But I always find them difficult to come by, especially with decent sound quality.

I do have a few that are pretty good though that I was able to download when I was in college in we had this massive network of illegal filesharing going before it was shut down.

The best is probably from a Fillmore West show on either 4/24 or 4/27/69, and it's one of the more circulated recordings so maybe you already have it. It has a lot of what they played in their early sets: As Long As I Have You, You Shook Me, I Can't Quit You Baby, Pat's Delight, Sittin' and Thinkin', Dazed and Confused (parts of it), How Many More Times, Lemon Song/Killing Floor, Train Kept a Rollin', Communication Breakdown.

I also have some random songs from shows from different years. Mostly from '73, '75, and '80. I can't remember all of the exact tunes but I think they are mostly versions of Kashmir, Achilles Last Stand, and No Quarter, put I know there are more as well.

If you're interested in any of this stuff maybe you could trade me something I don't already have or we could work something else out.

Yeah I have a few versions of it. One is a bootleg from one of the first shows they ever played in the U.S. at Gonzaga, 12/68. He does the Max Roach "The drum also waltzes" bit like he does in the early "Moby Dick" performances but you're right he does a lot of Buddy Rich inspired single stroke snare rolls and flying fills in "Pat's Delight," and he goes absolutely nuts with the bass drum triplets. You can tell, at 20 years old he's cocky as hell and loves showing that right foot off.

pps: 5:47 on how many more times. now if their ever was a drum beat that should be called a train beat it is this little figure. lovely! and how about bonzo's brand of jazz at the start of the song? decades after his death he still slays me.

Hi - I have a question for anyone who is familiar with any of the "Zeppelin: Off the Record" series books that came out in the 90s. These are the ones that have all the Zeppelin parts transcribed for each of the first five albums. There was also one for Presence and maybe In Through the Out Door and Coda, but I'm not sure. There's also a really nice two volume set of the "Remastered" stuff as well.

I find these pretty accurate and a good place to start when working on reproducing a particular tune and/or studying it. Using them and a decent amount of listening and correcting, I think a person can come up with a very high quality transcription that is very accurate in representing the playing on the album. They're also good for when you want to get together and play with other musicicians who might not have gone into the tunes on their own to pull out all the goods.

Anyway, what I was wondering was would anyone happen to know if the people that did the transcribing for this series had access to the pre-mixed masters. I'm just curious because sometimes these transcriptions have things in them that seem impossible to hear when all the parts are mixed and the levels are set for the final mix on the album (for instance, the bass drum part in the up-tempo section of Lemon Song). Plus in some of the tunes, the guitar parts are broken down into guitar-1, 2, 3, etc. and it seems like that kind of breakdown would be easier if you had the pre-mixed master at your disposal.

Thanks for any info.

__________________I really don't know what time it was. So I asked them if I could stay a while.

Ive never even heard of that, But im sure it would be cool to get your hands on. Im a bit new to this board, and when i saw a John Bonham thread, and saw how many posts, i was impressed! Thats alot of replies guys! Sweet.

I'd love to try one of them also. Since I've been hanging out in jazz land, I thought I'd get back to my roots a little. I was thinking of this while I was thinking of the jazz discussion and innovation...There is a desire to see/listen to musicians innovate across their entire career. Most rock bands change over the years. Usually for bad. They become over produced, etc. Bands like U2, Rush, Yes, Van Halen...The list goes on. Now what about Led Zeppelin? I remember when In Through The Out Doors came out. I thought it was very different from the previous albums. It too was transitioning into overproduction land. There are some great songs on that album, but the production was clearly beyond the previous. Do you agree? May John Bonham RIP. I still remember wearing my home made REMEMBER BONZO shirt to high school after he passed...But, if Bonzo was still alive and Zeppelin continued playing for 5-10 years or even until today... What do you think they would sound like? How do you think Bonzo would change over the years? Just pondering...Forgive me if this question has already been addressed on this thread also...

I'd love to try one of them also. Since I've been hanging out in jazz land, I thought I'd get back to my roots a little. I was thinking of this while I was thinking of the jazz discussion and innovation...There is a desire to see/listen to musicians innovate across their entire career. Most rock bands change over the years. Usually for bad. They become over produced, etc. Bands like U2, Rush, Yes, Van Halen...The list goes on. Now what about Led Zeppelin? I remember when In Through The Out Doors came out. I thought it was very different from the previous albums. It too was transitioning into overproduction land. There are some great songs on that album, but the production was clearly beyond the previous. Do you agree? May John Bonham RIP. I still remember wearing my home made REMEMBER BONZO shirt to high school after he passed...But, if Bonzo was still alive and Zeppelin continued playing for 5-10 years or even until today... What do you think they would sound like? How do you think Bonzo would change over the years? Just pondering...Forgive me if this question has already been addressed on this thread also...

John Paul Jones produced and wrote most of "in through the out door" Zeppelin was trying too change their style but still keep there blues roots at that time Disco was popular and nobody really knew which way rock & roll was going.sadly Bonham was addicted to heroin and the doctors put him on methadone too help kick the habit but you are not supposed to drink any Alcohol with that medication I think if he wasn't. on that medication his body could've broke down the alcohol better and he may still be alive today,when something tragic like that happens we always say "what If" it's sad though because Bonham in my opinion kept getting better on the kit."fool in the rain" was one of his last songs he recorded and that drum beat still sends chills up my spine when I hear it.Bonham was the main reason I stayed Single Bass instead of Double Bass like all the "Big 80s" drummers did back then,Bonham proved you don't. need a 11 piece kit with 20 cymbals too be a great drummer.to all you young,up & coming drummers it's not what you got but how you play.

i own two bonham biographys and have read several zep ones plus numerous articles and interviews and there is no mention of heroine. bonzo was a heavy drinker and was suffering from depression due to touring stress and the possible break up of the band. he put away far more vodka and other drinks the night of his death than any one man should. certainly enough to put an average man in a coma. occasionally this bonham on drugs thing comes up but i have never read it in any official writing.

Thanks for the info on Bonzo's drugs & alcohol. Not interested. I'm sad about it. Just as I am sad about Hendrix and Jaco...

Oh, that brings up an interesting super group question...and may possibly be going on in Heaven right now. Bonzo, Jaco, and Hendrix & maybe Jeff Buckley. Now there's an interesting supergroup who all have something in common. They all died too soon. And they all were some of the most influential and talented at what they do...Sad how that happens.

Back to my original question. Zeppelin was sliding down the slippery slope of overproduction. Would they have slid all the way? What would they sound like today?
Audioslave?...

i own two bonham biographys and have read several zep ones plus numerous articles and interviews and there is no mention of heroine. bonzo was a heavy drinker and was suffering from depression due to touring stress and the possible break up of the band. he put away far more vodka and other drinks the night of his death than any one man should. certainly enough to put an average man in a coma. occasionally this bonham on drugs thing comes up but i have never read it in any official writing.

i do agree strongly with the rest of your post tho.

j

It's just a fact of life Bonham is and always will be my favorite drummer but he was on methedone when he died,you don't give methedone to somebody trying to give up cigarattes both Bonham and Jimmy Page had a problem with Heroin,it's a touchy subject that's why you don't. hear of it.who ever would of thought James Taylor was a heroin addict once upon a time but he was it was the 70's after all.I don't. mean to offend anybody.
I'm sorry if I did.I just wish Bonham was still alive, the only band(Zeppelin) I never saw that I wish had the chance..

..But, if Bonzo was still alive and Zeppelin continued playing for 5-10 years or even until today... What do you think they would sound like? How do you think Bonzo would change over the years? Just pondering...Forgive me if this question has already been addressed on this thread also...

Just as In Through The Out Door showed signs of moving in an over-produced direction, I also think Bonzo was showing signs of complacency. Although he still could play one heck of a groove, his beats and fills were much more simple and straight-forward, lacking that creative fire from earlier on. This could be chalked up to a number of things, maturation being the most likely, but overall for Led Zep it definitely went hand-in-hand with the band moving towards a more slick production style.

If Bonzo stayed alive and Led Zep continued, I think they probably would have absorbed some new wave influences (mostly in the form of using the synth) just to sound "contemporary" for the early 80s, but by then would also start to absorb the sound of Van Halen, although it would probably be a more adult contemporary version of those guys. But really, could you imagine Bonham in the hyper-produced reverb-and-gated-snare 80s?? Oh boy, it's probably a good thing he went when he did (as horrible to say as that might be..) and I really don't want to imagine what they'd be doing if they were still kicking it today.

A current example of this phenomenon of aging and going for a more slick sound is Eric Clapton. I've heard and seen most of what he's done the last 5-10 years, and while he's still sounding great and the band is top notch, the overall sound is just too slick. Now I love Steve Gadd (he's the Sg in my username) but it sounds like most of the time his creative engine is running at about half capacity nowadays (but to his credit his passion and playing for the music engine is always at 100%). Again you could chalk Clapton, Gadd, Preston, ect.'s more streamlined sound up to maturation, but overall it feels a bit lifeless, like if you're walking through an old city where all the grime and decay and signs of day-to-day life have been cleaned up to the point that you could be in a Disney theme park.

So maybe Led Zep would be sounding something like Clapton, if not in actual notes or grooves, but in spirit, however wrinkle-free that may be.

i disagree somewhat with all of this. although speculation in itself is flawed.

led zep were trend setters and experimentalists. they had full creative license in the studio. bonham himself refused to tape up his drums or muffle his bassdrum, when everyone else was. i think they would have released maybe another album similar to the last one and then they might have recorded something completely different and groundbreaking, inventing a whole new genre and probably changing the course of pop history. this after a hiatus in rehab and allowing the punk revolution to become commercial and then they would have risen like a leviathon to release a string of new albums. sure bonham would not have a vast crop of new chops as his drinking and the touring did not allow for much self practice in the late eighties but then when led zep pulled a beatles on the world and quit touring in 1991 the band concentrated on producing ever more interesting material marrying unrelated genres with great tho sometimes totally esoteric lyrics. in 1999 the band embarked on a truly final world tour ending up at yankee stadium on new years eve for the final concert. here they promoted their latest triple album and bonham played a totally new drum solo he had been working on in secret for the past decade. titled 'ahab' it was such a masterpiece of rock drumming that it left the last tumultuous half hour of the concert smacking slightly of mediocrity. the band announced in early 2001 that they were taking a break and there followed 3 years were the group did not even cross paths. bonham launched a new brand of ludwig and went on a clinic tour that saw a reformed tho aging rocker teatotalling and unafraid of flying. the band would regroup every two or so year from then on to record an album...

You need coolin', baby, I'm not foolin',
I'm gonna send you back to schoolin',
Way down inside honey, you need it,
I'm gonna give you my love, X2

*Wanna Whole Lotta Love? X4

You've been learnin', baby, I bean learnin',
All them good times, baby, baby, I've been yearnin',
Way, way down inside honey, you need it,
I'm gonna give you my love X2

* Chorus

You've been coolin', baby, I've been droolin',
All the good times I've been misusin',
Way, way down inside, I'm gonna give you my love,
I'm gonna give you every inch of my love,
Gonna give you my love.
Yeah! All right! Let's go!

i disagree somewhat with all of this. although speculation in itself is flawed.

led zep were trend setters and experimentalists. they had full creative license in the studio. bonham himself refused to tape up his drums or muffle his bassdrum, when everyone else was. i think they would have released maybe another album similar to the last one and then they might have recorded something completely different and groundbreaking, inventing a whole new genre and probably changing the course of pop history. this after a hiatus in rehab and allowing the punk revolution to become commercial and then they would have risen like a leviathon to release a string of new albums. sure bonham would not have a vast crop of new chops as his drinking and the touring did not allow for much self practice in the late eighties but then when led zep pulled a beatles on the world and quit touring in 1991 the band concentrated on producing ever more interesting material marrying unrelated genres with great tho sometimes totally esoteric lyrics. in 1999 the band embarked on a truly final world tour ending up at yankee stadium on new years eve for the final concert. here they promoted their latest triple album and bonham played a totally new drum solo he had been working on in secret for the past decade. titled 'ahab' it was such a masterpiece of rock drumming that it left the last tumultuous half hour of the concert smacking slightly of mediocrity. the band announced in early 2001 that they were taking a break and there followed 3 years were the group did not even cross paths. bonham launched a new brand of ludwig and went on a clinic tour that saw a reformed tho aging rocker teatotalling and unafraid of flying. the band would regroup every two or so year from then on to record an album...

if only it were all true.

j

Haha I like your speculative history more than mine.. time to put it in the record books!

A little hint. I'm sure Nutha and plenty of other fans here know the answer. Here's a photo from a rather serious proceeding...The guy on the left made quite a few $$$$$.
Innovation took a back seat in some cases for Zeppelin. Who's the guy?

Thanks for the info on Bonzo's drugs & alcohol. Not interested. I'm sad about it. Just as I am sad about Hendrix and Jaco...

Oh, that brings up an interesting super group question...and may possibly be going on in Heaven right now. Bonzo, Jaco, and Hendrix & maybe Jeff Buckley. Now there's an interesting supergroup who all have something in common. They all died too soon. And they all were some of the most influential and talented at what they do...Sad how that happens.

Back to my original question. Zeppelin was sliding down the slippery slope of overproduction. Would they have slid all the way? What would they sound like today?
Audioslave?...

who's jaco? jaco marx LOL and I think Zeppelin would have kept creating great albums as long as Bonzo was alive,has anyone heard page & plant,i'm a zeppelin fan and that stuff doesn't. come close,but then again i guess we will never know. boo-hoo,boo-hoo,hoo,hoo

Jaco Pastorius. Bass player for Weather Report that died way too early. One of the most influential Bass players ever. If there is a Bass player forum there is a Jaco page that has fans as strong as Bonzo fans here.

Jaco Pastorius. Bass player for Weather Report that died way too early. One of the most influential Bass players ever. If there is a Bass player forum there is a Jaco page that has fans as strong as Bonzo fans here.

whoa,I love Weather Report I was not knowing yes you're right incredible bass player,wasn't. that Alex Acuza first Band?i'm more of a rock player instead of jazz so you will have to excuse me a keyboardest I know turn me on to them.can't. tell any names of the tunes but very cool stuff.since we were chatting about rock & roll heaven how about this 3 piece:John Bonham-Drums,John Entwistle-Bass,Jimi Hendrix-Guitar.