Dorothy Levitt early motoring

I am reluctant to start a new thread, but I saw this is due to go out at 9pm tonight on BBC 4, then apparently on a spool, shown again and again at intervalsPenelope Keith recreates a journey from London to Liverpool in 1905, based on Dorothy Levitt's noteshttp://www.bbc.co.uk...rammes/b00hq4fdRoger Lund

Really nice, interesting and informative programme with a lot of archive material and an insight in to veteran cars and Edwardian motoring and the roads of the period. Surprisingly good and well done by Penelope Keith, well worth watching.
Dorothy Levitt was clearly a remarkable woman who later drove for Selwyn Edge and the Napier Car Company in races and record attempts they said the first woman racing driver , but according to the programme she mysteriously disappeared from high public profile around 1910.

Originally posted by RTH Dorothy Levitt was clearly a remarkable woman who later drove for Selwyn Edge and the Napier Car Company in races and record attempts they said the first woman racing driver , but according to the programme she mysteriously disappeared from high public profile around 1910.

She was not a remarkable woman. She was an uncoeth, ill mannered douche bag. This is what she once said when stopped for, "driving at a great pace". "I would like to drive over every policeman and wished I had run over the sergeant and killed him"Hardly my idea of a remarkable woman.

Originally posted by ex Rhodie racer She was not a remarkable woman. She was an uncoeth, ill mannered douche bag. This is what she once said when stopped for, "driving at a great pace". "I would like to drive over every policeman and wished I had run over the sergeant and killed him"Hardly my idea of a remarkable woman.

On the contrary - in her time she was indeed a remarkable woman. Engaged initially as what would be today be called a temp in the offices of Napiers, she quickly rose to become SF Edge's personal assistant and - it seems likely - also his mistress.

As to your quote, it has to be seen in the context of the time: there was great animosity between motorists on one side and the police and magistrates who - then as now - saw the motor car as a handy form of extra income. Car drivers were viewed in pretty much the same light as anarchists and there was - to be fair - much bad behaviour reported about them: read the memoirs of Jarrott and Edge for example!

That quote is actually from a court report which I posted here some time ago: note that this was reported speech, not personal testimony in court. Also the magistrate's opinion, which seems somewhat milder than yours - and he was actually there. Incidentally "terrific pace" is a euphemism for anything over the speed limit, which was then a maximum of 14 mph (usually 12mph) and probably less in a Royal Park.

Originally posted by Vitesse2On Nov 6th 1903 she was among a number of motorists summonsed at Marlborough St for speeding in Hyde Park. Although she did not appear in court personally, she was said to have driven at a "terrific pace" and, when stopped, apparently "said she would like to drive over every policeman and wished she had run over the sergeant and killed him."

The magistrate, Mr Denman, dismissed this as "a silly bit of swagger" and proceeded to fine her £3 with 2s costs. Swagger it may have been, but the other six defendants were only fined £2 plus costs!

As to being uncouth - in "Napier - First to Wear the Green" David Venables records that she arrived at the prize-giving for the 1907 Herkomer in a fashionable ball gown "much to the delight of the assembly" - her beaten rival for best woman driver, Frau Lehmann (wife of the Director-General of Metallurgique) was thoroughly upstaged, having arrived still in her driving gear. Dorothy came 13th overall, better than many of the men.

The documentary sounds great - I hope it makes it to Australia eventually.

As for the times - yes, for a number of years the horse industry and its followers, under intense threat from the horseless carriages, maintained a quite extraordinary campaign of persecution of horseless carriage drivers. And magistrates of the time, usually of the landed gentry and huntin', shootin' and fishin' horsepersons to a man (or person), strongly supported the persecution. In a few years, the magistrates and landed gentry were all travelling by motor car, and the persecution gradually wound down.

Back in 1905, by the way, a halfway decent motor car cost up to 100,000 pounds in todays money, and was unusable without a full-time chauffeur/mechanic to keep the thing running. If you ever sit behind the wheel (or tiller) of a London-Brighton runner you will discover several alarming things. None of the pedals and levers do what you expect. There are no brakes (well, there are brakes, but less effective than the sole of your shoe on the back wheel of your bike). The engine is effectively fixed speed. The engine lube is by drip feed and on steep hills oil doesn't get anywhere near the highest bearings and the engine siezes up. Fuel feed is by gravity. Road Books of the period have amazing detail about the steepness of ascent and descent of various roads, as (a) you can't stop downhill and (b) you wreck the engine uphill. Any trip over 10 miles would be accompanied by at least one puncture, road were unsurfaced, and getting bogged was commonplace.

Originally posted by Terry Walker The documentary sounds great - I hope it makes it to Australia eventually.

As for the times - yes, for a number of years the horse industry and its followers, under intense threat from the horseless carriages, maintained a quite extraordinary campaign of persecution of horseless carriage drivers. And magistrates of the time, usually of the landed gentry and huntin', shootin' and fishin' horsepersons to a man (or person), strongly supported the persecution. In a few years, the magistrates and landed gentry were all travelling by motor car, and the persecution gradually wound down.

Back in 1905, by the way, a halfway decent motor car cost up to 100,000 pounds in todays money, and was unusable without a full-time chauffeur/mechanic to keep the thing running. If you ever sit behind the wheel (or tiller) of a London-Brighton runner you will discover several alarming things. None of the pedals and levers do what you expect. There are no brakes (well, there are brakes, but less effective than the sole of your shoe on the back wheel of your bike). The engine is effectively fixed speed. The engine lube is by drip feed and on steep hills oil doesn't get anywhere near the highest bearings and the engine siezes up. Fuel feed is by gravity. Road Books of the period have amazing detail about the steepness of ascent and descent of various roads, as (a) you can't stop downhill and (b) you wreck the engine uphill. Any trip over 10 miles would be accompanied by at least one puncture, road were unsurfaced, and getting bogged was commonplace.

Why on earth did they do it?

It was an adventure. It was fun.

Just watched it on iPlayer (I couldn't tear myself away from the cricket last night!) and found it - as RTH said - a surprisingly good programme. One or two minor quibbles, but mainly down to sloppy scriptwriting I think: although I do wish they hadn't tagged that excruciating (but inevitable ) Barbara Cartland BS on at the end - surely David Burgess-Wise could have stopped them doing that?

I have to say I sympathise with Rhodie here: swagger or not, to declare that you wished to have killed somebody is not my idea of a remarkable person, either. Also, being a mistress to a wealthy man is hardly a remarkable deed for a woman, nor is carrying a revolver for any human being.

I think it is worth remembering that the word remarkable does not necessarily imply good. If someone is distinctive, out of the ordinary, unusual, maybe even eccentric they become someone who becomes remarked upon, but that does not have to imply a paragon of virtue.
It was self evident from the programme she did stand out from the crowd, was a very strong forceful and determined woman who was very resourceful and physically and mentally capable, who no doubt had learned by experience that making strong statements sometimes gave her publicity and helped to make things happen for her,it may well have been carefully calculated. As we saw she gained a lot of press publicily and photographs of her exploits.

Originally posted by fines I have to say I sympathise with Rhodie here: swagger or not, to declare that you wished to have killed somebody is not my idea of a remarkable person, either. Also, being a mistress to a wealthy man is hardly a remarkable deed for a woman, nor is carrying a revolver for any human being.

Different days, Michael. One point brought out in the programme was - as I pointed out before I'd seen it - the rivalry between motorists, the authorities, landowners, horseowners and the "huntin', shootin', fishin'" types. One landowner apparently approached a magistrate to ask if he could legitimately shoot passing motorists ..... perhaps Miss Levitt was merely reacting to that attitude, which was widespread at the time.

And I did point out that the comment about running policemen over was "reported speech" - police officers' notebooks were not necessarily "the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth" .....

Hm, my Oxford defines "remarkable" as "unusual or surprising in a way that causes people to take notice", which would apply to both Hitler and Levitt, but I wouldn't use the word in connection with either. Despicable, more likely.

I didn't really want to compare Levitt to Hitler, I only used the latter to gauge my understanding of the word "remarkable", and Richard's answer gave me all I needed: he wouldn't touch "Hitler" and "remarkable" without the proverbial ten-foot pole, crediting only one very minor characteristic, and even then only with a caveat! That's my understanding, too: there's a subtext of admiration in the word, and I wouldn't want that to show when talking of Hitler, and incidentally not when talking about Levitt, either.;)

Nobody seems to know very much about Dorothy Levitt's origins or what became of her in later life. I put forward a theory a couple of years ago that she was a Jewish girl from the East End called Elizabeth Levi who was born around 1882, I still think that's correct but it is embarassing to see the theory wikipedered into fact. I haven't seen the programme but a 68 year old actress playing a young woman who was aged about 23 when the film is set, how about that for attention to accuracy.

It's a pity that this remarkable figure hasn't been more fully researched.

Originally posted by David McKinney It wasn't a drama, KJ, and Penelope Keith wasn't playing the part of Dorothy - she simply set out to re-enact the 1904 London-Liverpool drive in a similar car

Thanks for putting me straight on that one. I'll have to check it out on this iplayer contraption.

Any theories as to what happened to Ms Levitt? The phone directories have her living at flat 1n Portman Mansions, Paddington until 1913. I couldn't find her there in the 1911 census but seemingly thousands of women of a suffragist outlook refused to take part in that census, not sure if Dorothy was a feminist but it wouldn't be a surprise if she were.

The original Miss Levitt in one of the 80HP Napiers at Brighton in 1905 (an original postcard from my collection). Was she remarkable? -well I'm damn sure I wouldn't have wanted to take that monster down Madeira Drive at over 85mph. Running the full kilometre course (in the opposite direction to the later Speed Trials) there wasn't a lot of room to stop.

Thanks for putting me straight on that one. I'll have to check it out on this iplayer contraption.

Any theories as to what happened to Ms Levitt? The phone directories have her living at flat 1n Portman Mansions, Paddington until 1913. I couldn't find her there in the 1911 census but seemingly thousands of women of a suffragist outlook refused to take part in that census, not sure if Dorothy was a feminist but it wouldn't be a surprise if she were.

I've looked for her and she seems to vanish after writing her famous book. She may well have married at some point and changed her name, although she never married Selwyn-Edge. She may also have been living abroad at the time of that census, although I have no evidence to back this up.

Originally posted by taylov The original Miss Levitt in one of the 80HP Napiers at Brighton in 1905 (an original postcard from my collection). Was she remarkable? -well I'm damn sure I wouldn't have wanted to take that monster down Madeira Drive at over 85mph. Running the full kilometre course (in the opposite direction to the later Speed Trials) there wasn't a lot of room to stop.

Tony

Tony that is a wonderful postcard and these moments in history are enjoyable.

Do you have more and do the members have more that could be added to this former thread?

I thought it was a very good programme, and I especially like the 'bobby-spotter' strap-on binoculars, claimed to enable a motorist to spot a speed-trap-booby 'at a considerable distance, even when disguised as a respectable man'.......

Surely Dorothy Levitt must have continued to be paid royalties on her book after 1913, even if she didn't take part in the census or moved abroad?

Henry, yes I do have more postcards. Rather a lot more. Starting at around 1901 and going up to the early 1960s. Here's one of my favourites from 1905 Brighton Motor Trials - Mr J.E. Hutton in his 120HP Mercedes (so says the card -I suspect it may be a 60HP model). If my failing memory is right, I believe that Miss Levitt beat this Mercedes.

Excellent programme and not really given much publicity as part of BBC4's motoring festival which I knoew nothing about. Far better than the James Martin programme! it shows the BBC can get it right. Perhaps we should tell them that as it might encourage more programmes?

We seem to have a contradiction here! The original motorists were all from wealthy backgrounds, who drove their motor cars on their long private driveways, and as the cars became more reliable; longer journeys became viable.

These early motorists were land owners; who I assume were also part of the hunting, fishing and shooting fraternity, they were not from the local Council Estate. Those who opposed motor cars are said to be from the ‘hunting, fishing and shooting fraternity’, basically the same class background, although probably from an older generation. The magistrates ( J.P’s ) would have also come from a similar background, so would have been passing judgment on their own social group. Could it be that the motorists that were caught; were actually driving in an inconsiderate manner and deserved to be punished!

It was an excellent programme. Penelope Keith as a petrolhead? Who would have guessed? She seemed to have a real passion for it and a hitherto-unsuspected-by-me-anyway presenting talent. Partially explained by having a Rolls-Royce fettler in the family. Still, it was nice that in one of her bits to camera she casually dropped a Fangio reference. Maybe a bit too many extracts from "hilarious" silent movies from the 1900s but otherwise it was an unexpected treasure trove.

Lee Trevail: Not really a contradiction. The British well-heeled classes then were not monolithic any more than they are today. The landed gentry as a class were quite distinct from the aristocracy, and also from the wealthy businessmen of the time. The aristocracy were frequently owners of lots of land, but were not "landed gentry". Just as the peerage had its stud books - Burke's Peerage for instance - the landed gentry had their own: Burke's Landed Gentry.

The result was rather like the Monty Python sketch on class. The aristocracy looked down on the landed gentry (backward rural oafs) and the businessmen (who were in "trade", egad.) The landed gentry looked down on the aristocracy ("fast", and immoral) and the businessmen (who were in "trade", egad!).

If you were well heeled, adventurous, a bit forward looking, you might try the new fangled horseless carriage and become addicted. If you were well-heeled, unadventurous, and backward looking, you would do everything you could to stamp down on horseless carriages.

The advent of the auto was a very radical shift in society, and in a relatively short time the multi-million pound horse industry contracted dramatically. In the late 19th century road transport was entirely by horses; in the 2oth, by motor vehicle. Sherlock Holmes buzzed about in a Hansom Cab; a few years later cabs were motor vehicles. (As an aside, the last Hansom Cab plied in London until 1936, when the owner, by then an ancient geezer, donated it to a Museum.)

The persecution of the new motorist of time was real, and intentional. Recall the Red Flag act, which restricted motor vehicles to 4 mph with a man walking in front carrying red warning flag, but did not restrict horse-drawn carriages nor for that matter horseback riders to the same speed no require them to be preceded by a man with a red flag.

Terry What we are both saying is that it was not a class thing; but attitude to motoring and the motorist. The Red Flag act (along with its walking pace speed limit) was not introduced to hinder the progress of the motor car but to warn of steam driven machinery, more often than not agricultural. It was only later that the act included motor cars. It must not be underestimated the damage and potential danger a frightened; runaway horse can cause. Also at times the upper classes have relied on 'New Money' from self made men to bail them out, this was done by marriage, so to a degree the class structure was not as rigid as we may think.

Also you refer to those that were 'well-heeled, unadventurous, and backward looking'. Whilst I cannot comment on the first (which I am not), but by having an interest in the past; I am sure that many TNFer's fit the other two, I certainly do! Had I been around over one hundred years ago; would I have embraced the new fangled motor car, or view it with the same contempt as I do the Wii games advertised on the telly in 2009. Somehow I think I would be boring friends stiff, telling them about three obscure horse events that happened in 1851 on a field near Diss.

Back to opposition to the motor car in the Edwardian period: I agree with what Terry said about the upper classes - they were not one simple group. As with any group, in any period, there will always be those "early adopters" who embrace progress, and those who remain hostile to it until they are forced to accept it. Then there are those in the middle, who merely take time to come around to new ideas. From my limited experience of the British upper classes, I get the impression now that some members of the "true" aristocracy always have been early adopters, mainly because they have the time and money to be so.

Just bumping this up as it's showing again on BBC4 tonight at 7pm. It's followed by another little gem which first aired earlier this week - "The Golden Age of Coach Travel", which includes a remarkable amount of 1950s colour film of buses and coaches and some sometimes hilarious reminiscences from former coach drivers.

I posted some details in the Discussion area on the Wikipedia page about her.

Not found her in the 1911 census - someone wondered whether she could have been a Suffragette?

I also wondered whether she might have driven an ambulance in WWI with FANY or some similar organisation?

Her parents died around Brighton as did her sister and husband. There are a couple of births in Brighton in the 1920s which could be her sister's from the mother's maiden name so it is possible that there are descendants of her sister. There were four other siblings but all died before 1911, quite likely as infants.