Their are many demons to choose from. Thousands to be exact. Lucifer and the 13 demon kings. You have no clue what you guys are facing.

Yes, I do. They are called superstitions. I am not facing anything except for a world populated with credulous people like you. That is much more scary, because it is real.

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An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

wow, nice lie there Natan. You know, bearing false witness like your supposed god says not to do? You have not provided any evidence. Ooh, the 13 demon kings. So you know this hmmmm? Sounds like someone's been cribbing from the Deities and Demigods book.

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In a court of law two witnesses is enough why should I provide anymore

Velkyn- I am discussing the "Dictionary of Demon and Demons in the Bible". People for thousands of years with countless accounts of demon altercations and it is not enough.

I love that science can continually be wrong with evidence, but it is accepted as truth.

It isn't truth, but it is an honest attempt to model the truth. It can be easily demonstrated through the science of cartography.

Get a map of the world from 1500, 1550, 1600, 1650, 1700, 1750, 1800, 1850, 1900, 1950, and 2000...arranged in that order. then put a photograph of the earth to the right. You should notice an obvious pattern here, each map gets progressely more similar in look to the photo. That, my dear theist, is science at work; an attempt to model reality with the best available information. The 1750 map was "wrong" but none the less a better model of reality than the one from 1500 because new evidence was accepted and finding a better way of measuring a coastline wasn't considered a heresy in Cartography, and a person navigating a ship in 1750 would be a fool not to accept it as reality, but rather used the one from 1500 because "it was from the great fathers of cartography"

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

In a court of law two witnesses is enough why should I provide anymore

Do you believe in alien abductions? How about the miracles of every other religion on the planet? What about healing using crystals? Do you believe in homeopathy? Do you believe in astrology? I'm fairly sure I could find one other person to come with me and tell you that we witnessed an event which proves beyond a doubt that there is no god.. there are two of us, isn't that enough?

This is why your position is laughable. If you allow for one you must allow for them all, and if you do not allow the evidence of two witnesses as proof of any one of the above mentioned, you must also not allow it for the position you favor. This is a simple epistemic necessity if you wish not to believe falsehoods.

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Cheers!-Argyle

Never let yourself be diverted by what you wish to believe, but look only and surely at what are the facts

In a court of law two witnesses is enough why should I provide anymore

Show me a judge willing to accept two witnesses who claimed "a demon did it" and a opposing attourney who thought he wouldn't have a basis for an appeal.

Seriously, are you really this stupid?

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An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

I love that science can continually be wrong with evidence, but it is accepted as truth.

It isn't truth, but it is an honest attempt to model the truth. It can be easily demonstrated through the science of cartography.

Get a map of the world from 1500, 1550, 1600, 1650, 1700, 1750, 1800, 1850, 1900, 1950, and 2000...arranged in that order. then put a photograph of the earth to the right. You should notice an obvious pattern here, each map gets progressely more similar in look to the photo. That, my dear theist, is science at work; an attempt to model reality with the best available information. The 1750 map was "wrong" but none the less a better model of reality than the one from 1500 because new evidence was accepted and finding a better way of measuring a coastline wasn't considered a heresy in Cartography, and a person navigating a ship in 1750 would be a fool not to accept it as reality, but rather used the one from 1500 because "it was from the great fathers of cartography"

The point is that when two people see the same thing and say the same thing there must be some fact to it. But I know your argument will be without photos there is no proof. and we are crazy.

Science wrong

How about the existance of Different dimensions proven by science? I believe this opens up a whole can of worms for humans as there is more then just us. These dimensions are hell, shoel, heaven, earth, etc.

Now you really think I am crazy, but demon possession is the movement through a dimension into a person. UFO's are demons based on simularities in cave pictagraphs.

Yes. Have you plucked out your eyes and cut off your ears because you have mishear or misseen something?

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An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

The point is that when two people see the same thing and say the same thing there must be some fact to it. But I know your argument will be without photos there is no proof. and we are crazy.

Nope, not at all. Delusions in crowds are common. Theists of all stripes come and make ridiculous claims here. There is no more reason to believe your stories about demons than there is to believe a Muslim's claim that the moon was cracked into to parts.

Science is built on working out the errors with facts. You benefit from this every day.

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"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

Hatter23: +1 for reply #121, or at least, I'd give you a +1 if I had the ability to award darwins, apparently still too new. I really want to make a JPG of that series of maps so I can post it whenever this argument about science being "wrong so many times" comes up.

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Cheers!-Argyle

Never let yourself be diverted by what you wish to believe, but look only and surely at what are the facts

The point is that when two people see the same thing and say the same thing there must be some fact to it. But I know your argument will be without photos there is no proof. and we are crazy.

No, it isn't my argument at all. My point is that people are credulous and will hear and see things that they are inclined to believe to exist in the first place, regardless of what actually happened. There are accounts even as late as the 20th century of people seeing flying men, there are accounts of people seeing in rural Japan of seeing many tailed fox spirits, in fact there are hundreds of these accounts. There are accounts of sightings of the Loc Ness Monster, bigfoot, the power of various Pagan deities, and all sorts of supernatural things.

My point is extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence because it is important to try to have your belief how the universe were best approximate how the universe works, and if you don't use skeptisim, you can believe in falsehoods more easily.

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An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

No, it isn't my argument at all. My point is that people are credulous and will hear and see things that they are inclined to believe to exist in the first place, regardless of what actually happened. There are accounts even as late as the 20th century of people seeing flying men, there are accounts of people seeing in rural Japan of seeing many tailed fox spirits, in fact there are hundreds of these accounts. There are accounts of sightings of the Loc Ness Monster, bigfoot, the power of various Pagan deities, and all sorts of supernatural things.

My point is extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence because it is important to try to have your belief how the universe were best approximate how the universe works, and if you don't use skeptisim, you can believe in falsehoods more easily.

Hater I hate to say this but I agree with you but my proof is not a photo it is a real life experience. And there are flying men with jet packs and the sky divers using the flying suits. What they saw may not have been out of the rhelm of possibility.

Do you see germs no but you know they are real when you get sick? I do not see God but I know he is real when I see the things he does in peoples lives and through my person experiences with Him.

Do you see germs no but you know they are real when you get sick? I do not see God but I know he is real when I see the things he does in peoples lives and through my person experiences with Him.

microscopes. and your claims are like all theists, who claim that their god/gods are real when they see the things he/it/they do in people and through their personal experiences in he/it/them. Again, show your version of this nonsense is the only true on.

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"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

To see germs, spread a few on a petri dish and wait...they'll be visible soon enough.

To see God.... pray and wait.......... forever.

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rhocam ~ I guess there are several trillion cells in a man, and one in an amoeba, so to be generous, lets say that there were a billion. That is one every fifteen years. So in my lifetime I should have seen two evolutionary changes.

Translation :- You don't believe in batshit crazy things that have been pulled out of someone's arse. You fail to realize that huge monsters with unfeasible powers from nowhere in particular, roam the earth and will inhabit your soul at a moments notice, thus causing you to strangle kittens as a sacrifice to Satan.

I suggest you believe this.

« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 03:19:37 PM by Graybeard »

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Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

As I said before, no one is as fuck-balls stupid as the character you are portraying on the internet. The odds favour that you are just trolling, which means you are a jackass, instead of a complete imbecile.

You will cease pretending to be a complete idiot, or I will have to ask you to leave. It is not acceptable for you to take advantage of the members of this community who seek forthright discussion and debate.

Nathan, are you really arguing that anything two people believe in has to be true? Or ar you saying that truth is decided by majority vote--so when Muslims outnumber Christians, then Islam will be the one true faith.

Is Elvis Presley alive? I am sure that we can find at least two people who think so....

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When all of Cinderella's finery changed back at midnight, why didn't the shoes disappear? What's up with that?

Hater I hate to say this but I agree with you but my proof is not a photo it is a real life experience. And there are flying men with jet packs and the sky divers using the flying suits. What they saw may not have been out of the rhelm of possibility.

Do you see germs no but you know they are real when you get sick? I do not see God but I know he is real when I see the things he does in peoples lives and through my person experiences with Him.

Do not call me "Hater"

Your "real life experience" is not relevant to us. Is the "real life experience" of a group of Chinese peasants who saw a flying man WHO CLAIMED TO BE SUPERPOWERED but were duped because the chinese myth of superpowered people was exploited mean anything to you? If anything that just demonstrates what I was saying further, they interpreted what they saw THROUGH THEIR MYTHOLOGY!!!!!!!

If I can use my wizard analogy:

Get one thing through your thick skull: WE ARE NOT CREDULOUS.

And that's for all theists observing this post. We are not credulous, stop bothering with arguments that involve unsupported assertions, appeals to ignorance, and circular reasoning. Don't you get it? We are skeptics. Think about approaching up as if someone was trying to convince you that they were a wizard, a real spell casting wizard.

For proof:Would you take their description of their astral battles?Would you accept that they have studied spell books?Would you accept they talked about the tales of spell users historically across the globe?Would you accept some sort of linguistic slight of hand?Would you accept that their magic works in mysterious ways?Would you accept that you can't prove they aren't a wizard?

If you wouldn't accept these arguments....don't use their equivalent on us!

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An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

There are plenty of exorcisms on Youtube. Yes some are real and others are not. No matter the proof you will not believe what you see unless you experience it yourself. That is the fact and no one can refute your skepticism has blinded your ability to see things in a different light. It has to be a personal experience which you refuse to have. Even people on this forum, if you were to experience it, would like the time of Jesus not accept Him. So ultimately you and I are wasting our time debating something you refuse to accept as truth and I refuse to let go of the truth. Lord I pray for the hardened hearts and ask you to let them see truth. Bind the things not of you and release them long enough to make the choice of truth.

I love that science can continually be wrong with evidence, but it is accepted as truth.

Nathan, you do not know me, so please do not try to assume things about me.

In the court of law, if you wanted to prosecute somebody for murder, do they just need 2 people to say, "yeah, I saw him do it"? What if the witnesses were mistaken? What if they were bearing false witness? What if their testimony says things this man did not do? Would the man still be guilty of the crime? Should I just go ahead and believe these two witnesses? Unfortunately, there are courts out there that will accept even LESS than that and personally, I find it truly sickening. See West Memphis 3 - 3 guys put to death row for murder, no witnesses, no real evidence. Luckily, they never actually got the death penalty and after a very long period of protests they were eventually freed - this is after over 20 years - 20 years of their lives wasted because they were wrongly imprisoned. The issue with the court of law is that it's not infallible. They get it wrong. People can be unfairly punished and it's one reason the death penalty in the UK was eventually abolished.

But allow me to put this in another light. How would you feel if the 'possessed' guy you visited was in fact a paranoid schizophrenic? What if this exorcism stuff you're pumping into his head just worsened his condition, made him more paranoid, had him having these delusions of things that really weren't there and found himself lashing out on people violently? What if he deteriorated to a point where he managed to kill somebody? How would he feel then. Or what if in one of your exorcisms things just got too far and it ends in a fatality? It happens. So what then? Would you be happy being charged for manslaughter? Because in the court of law that's what happens. Some of the victims have even been children. What if the 'evidence' showed that actually your 'demonically possessed man' was actually suffering from severe mental problems you failed to address and what if you got charged for abuse because of it? As these mental problems could have been addressed when he showed early signs. Would you be happy knowing you've caused any of those things because you were so adamant that it was a demon?

This is the wonderful thing about science (which you claim to be wrong, but you say that typing from what is presumably a computer) is that it's able to take data people have gathered and learn everything they're able to from it and apply it to how we understand the world. It is scrutinised, theories are made and they're tested and tested and tested. We've learned that pestilence is bacteria nor demons and witches, we've learned that the earth is round and orbits the sun, we've learned how to combat bacteria, we've learned that remedies with 'magical' properties do not cure people, we've learned that taken somebody to an altar and have holy water splashed on them and praying to God doesn't save them from illnesses, we've gone from an age where the common cold could kill you to when it's just a minor inconvenience thanks to science and get this...part of how we fight harmful bacteria is based off of the theory of evolution - because certain strains of a virus can and DO evolve. That's why we have to research the medicines and combat any new strains that evolve. We've had so many things religious folks have so ADAMANTLY claimed to be undeniable true to be found untrue through the scientific methodology. Though, many religious folk deny the inconvenient parts of science as t challenges what they want to believe.

Now, from reading your testimonies, I came up with two reasonable explanations as to what's happening. I don't out right refuse to believe or I'm just arrogant about my own views. If demons ARE real, I so want to know about it. Why? Well, I don't want to be possessed and find that when I come to I've butchered my family. But instead of accepting the possibility that there is a scientific explanation for this, ironically, you so arrogantly claim your testimony to by undeniable and that we're simply blind.

I'm sorry, but with the time you hand with this guy, you've been given amble opportunity to gather the data you need to have us questions our own views on this. As somebody said, why didn't you film it, take lots of and lots of picture, try and document everything you can, phone the doctor (bring him in on it), get a journalist in, call the police, get an ambulance, get every kind of person in your local area who good give a professional opinion, who could document and report what they witnessed. However, all we can do is take your word for it. At least people on YouTube have videos, whilst these videos are very difficult to verify, but then I'm gullible to suddenly believe a video that only looks convincing. There's plenty of 'convincing' videos of supernatural things that have been successfully debunked.

So try to see it from our perspective. There's nothing special about anybody's so-called "evidence" and people claims that distinguish them from fact of fiction. You might as well be telling us Bigfoot is real and so's the Loch Ness monster.

« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 05:45:35 PM by Seppuku »

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“It is difficult to understand the universe if you only study one planet” - Miyamoto MusashiWarning: I occassionally forget to proofread my posts to spot typos or to spot poor editing.

There are plenty of exorcisms on Youtube. Yes some are real and others are not. No matter the proof you will not believe what you see unless you experience it yourself. That is the fact and no one can refute your skepticism has blinded your ability to see things in a different light. It has to be a personal experience which you refuse to have. Even people on this forum, if you were to experience it, would like the time of Jesus not accept Him. So ultimately you and I are wasting our time debating something you refuse to accept as truth and I refuse to let go of the truth. Lord I pray for the hardened hearts and ask you to let them see truth. Bind the things not of you and release them long enough to make the choice of truth.

I love that science can continually be wrong with evidence, but it is accepted as truth.

Oh geez Nathan, first i thought you ran away, but now you're coming back here to just be ignorant of what we've been telling you. No, none of the excorism were real, all were doctored up. "It's a personal experience which you refused to have?" What does that even mean? Have you not been paying any attention? I refuse to accept fairy tales that are not backed up with evidence. This is what you sound like.

Nathan: Demon possession is real!!Us: Prove it.Nathan: Here's youtube videos and an andecote.Us: Those can be doctored up, you can be confusing mental illness.Nathan: You just refuse to accept the truth! You're ignorant and you shut me down!Us: No, those just don't prove anything.Nathan: You refuse to learn the truth! I win anyway!

No, it isn't my argument at all. My point is that people are credulous and will hear and see things that they are inclined to believe to exist in the first place, regardless of what actually happened. There are accounts even as late as the 20th century of people seeing flying men, there are accounts of people seeing in rural Japan of seeing many tailed fox spirits, in fact there are hundreds of these accounts. There are accounts of sightings of the Loc Ness Monster, bigfoot, the power of various Pagan deities, and all sorts of supernatural things.

My point is extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence because it is important to try to have your belief how the universe were best approximate how the universe works, and if you don't use skeptisim, you can believe in falsehoods more easily.

Hater I hate to say this but I agree with you but my proof is not a photo it is a real life experience. And there are flying men with jet packs and the sky divers using the flying suits. What they saw may not have been out of the rhelm of possibility.

Do you see germs no but you know they are real when you get sick? I do not see God but I know he is real when I see the things he does in peoples lives and through my person experiences with Him.

We can see germs by microscope. The problem with that claim is that germs are real and has been tested. Your demon possession isn't and has not been proven. You cannot see God but you know he's there? How do you know it wasn't Zeus? How do you know it wasn't Ra or Vishnu or Odin? I'm sorry but that analogy fails, there is nothing that porvides that a deity exists.

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Me:What are you looking at Eminem?Brother: Nothing, Harry Potter.

I love to read books, just not your Bible. i support gay rights and women's rights. Why? Because i'm tired of the hate, stupidity, and your desire to control us all and make up lies.

wow, nice lie there Natan. You know, bearing false witness like your supposed god says not to do? You have not provided any evidence. Ooh, the 13 demon kings. So you know this hmmmm? Sounds like someone's been cribbing from the Deities and Demigods book.

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In a court of law two witnesses is enough why should I provide anymore

Velkyn- I am discussing the "Dictionary of Demon and Demons in the Bible". People for thousands of years with countless accounts of demon altercations and it is not enough.

Oh good grief, you mean to tell me that you cannot distinguish a lie from facts? If i wrote down a book creating different creatures and call them demons and that they're real, they can be no different from the books about some demons you read. As for eyewitnesses, they're not good because they can be wrong in what they see and they could be making things up or stretching the truth.

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Me:What are you looking at Eminem?Brother: Nothing, Harry Potter.

I love to read books, just not your Bible. i support gay rights and women's rights. Why? Because i'm tired of the hate, stupidity, and your desire to control us all and make up lies.