Dr Dreidel:In the richest country in the world, the idea that people starve or lack basic needs is unconscionable.

You get this atheist's "Amen, brother" to that - it is unconscionable. It's terrible that such a large part of our country believes that it is more moral to withhold help because of the few who will inevitably abuse the help, than it is to help.

Grand_Moff_Joseph:"Being a welfare mother entitled everyone to make judgements about me and my choices. Once when I was in the grocery store, the woman in line behind me saw my foodstamps and peered into my cart. "Mushrooms," she sniffed. "Fresh beans when canned are half the price. Artichoke hearts, for heaven's sake!"

The capability of mankind to be utter assholes to each other is truly amazing at times.

"Once heat and rent were paid, I had $10 per month left for everything that food stamps didn't cover - laundry soap, tampons, everything. And this was in Massachusetts, which had one of the highest welfare allotments. I don't know how people in other states survived."

Gosh, I hope she didn't have a fridge and microwave at the same time - she wouldn't be poor anymore, according to Fox.

Inflation adjusted, consumer microwaves that were first sold in 1974 cost $2,700($600 in 1974 dollars).

Departing from my election day eve glibness, the disparity between what the public (IE - average conservative voter) thinks and what is actually happening when it comes to welfare is incredible.

Many of my firm's clients are receiving some kind of public benefits and it isn't some kind of easy life for "lazy people." I've been in their homes, I talk to them daily about how they cannot get any healthcare beyond being wheeled into the ER for massive trauma, and I want to scream when someone equates all of them to malingerers. It sucks to be limited to public benefits and none of them like it.

AbbeySomeone:For every story like hers there is at least 1 that gets knocked up and feels entitled to gov't assistance. Some people grow up like that and it's all they know.

No, no there isn't. The statistics on it are pretty clear. 85% get off of assistance within 18 months. A few more take longer, and then, yes, there are those who are on long term, usually due to permanent disability.

iaazathot:AbbeySomeone: For every story like hers there is at least 1 that gets knocked up and feels entitled to gov't assistance. Some people grow up like that and it's all they know.

No, no there isn't. The statistics on it are pretty clear. 85% get off of assistance within 18 months. A few more take longer, and then, yes, there are those who are on long term, usually due to permanent disability.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

Exactly. And nobody I know who qualifies for disability is able to get it without the help of a lawyer who is going to take a large part of the money.

/Oh the article is not the gops definition of welfare queen.//Mooching off of the publics funds...///gotcha.////I tried a scam like palins when i was a wee youngun, but barely got 5 grand before getting busted. /s//Televangelists still rule as the mega-welfare-kings.

sweetmelissa31:I didn't read the story, but I'm assuming her church helped her back on her feet.

And during a surprising call, my mother invited me back to Maryland to be near her and my father. I found a job at a school in Baltimore. When I went to the welfare office to cut off my checks, the social worker looked at me and said, "Good luck. I have a feeling you're going to make it."

Solon Isonomia:Departing from my election day eve glibness, the disparity between what the public (IE - average conservative voter) thinks and what is actually happening when it comes to welfare is incredible.

If you dare to peek inside the head of many a right wing Rmoney voter tomorrow night, you would see a ghastly nightmare of them visualizing themselves in their homes being attacked "Night of the Living Dead" style by hordes of hobos and nee-grow welfare queens trying to break in to take their money.

I don't necessarily approve of the anti-welfare thing, but I get it. I lost my home and business to a fire a couple of years ago, and ended up living on the street for a while. I'm still pretty liberal, but that experience definitely pushed me to the right.

It was basically all about the realization that the philosophical underpinnings of conservatism were true: the world is a zero-sum jungle, and eventually, as a matter literally of survival, people have to decide whether they want to be predators or prey. In most of the industrialized world, we are lucky to have corporations take on that moral burden on our behalf, but it's still there. In this country, thanks to cheap consumer goods, we live fairly well because of the fact that a lot of people in China live like slaves.

And that realization has definitely changed a lot of my consumption choices, but I'm afraid I'm in the vast minority.

udhq:I don't necessarily approve of the anti-welfare thing, but I get it. I lost my home and business to a fire a couple of years ago, and ended up living on the street for a while. I'm still pretty liberal, but that experience definitely pushed me to the right.

It was basically all about the realization that the philosophical underpinnings of conservatism were true: the world is a zero-sum jungle, and eventually, as a matter literally of survival, people have to decide whether they want to be predators or prey. In most of the industrialized world, we are lucky to have corporations take on that moral burden on our behalf, but it's still there. In this country, thanks to cheap consumer goods, we live fairly well because of the fact that a lot of people in China live like slaves.

And that realization has definitely changed a lot of my consumption choices, but I'm afraid I'm in the vast minority.

What are you going on about? Living in poverty pushed you to want to help people less? Chinese slaves?

iaazathot:AbbeySomeone: For every story like hers there is at least 1 that gets knocked up and feels entitled to gov't assistance. Some people grow up like that and it's all they know.

No, no there isn't. The statistics on it are pretty clear. 85% get off of assistance within 18 months. A few more take longer, and then, yes, there are those who are on long term, usually due to permanent disability.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

So much this.

People don't want to stay on welfare because it isn't that much money and they would rather find a job that pays them more than the welfare check they are receiving. But people like Abbey don't believe this because they think that a welfare check is enough to buy lobsters, steaks and pay the monthly note on a Cadillac.

DROxINxTHExWIND:udhq: I don't necessarily approve of the anti-welfare thing, but I get it. I lost my home and business to a fire a couple of years ago, and ended up living on the street for a while. I'm still pretty liberal, but that experience definitely pushed me to the right.

It was basically all about the realization that the philosophical underpinnings of conservatism were true: the world is a zero-sum jungle, and eventually, as a matter literally of survival, people have to decide whether they want to be predators or prey. In most of the industrialized world, we are lucky to have corporations take on that moral burden on our behalf, but it's still there. In this country, thanks to cheap consumer goods, we live fairly well because of the fact that a lot of people in China live like slaves.

And that realization has definitely changed a lot of my consumption choices, but I'm afraid I'm in the vast minority.

What are you going on about? Living in poverty pushed you to want to help people less? Chinese slaves?

/WTF am I reading

Somebody trying to make some crap up to prove the point that people on welfare are bad and he is better than everybody else because he pulled himself up by his bootstraps with no government help at all.

udhq:I don't necessarily approve of the anti-welfare thing, but I get it. I lost my home and business to a fire a couple of years ago, and ended up living on the street for a while. I'm still pretty liberal, but that experience definitely pushed me to the right.

It was basically all about the realization that the philosophical underpinnings of conservatism were true: the world is a zero-sum jungle, and eventually, as a matter literally of survival, people have to decide whether they want to be predators or prey. In most of the industrialized world, we are lucky to have corporations take on that moral burden on our behalf, but it's still there. In this country, thanks to cheap consumer goods, we live fairly well because of the fact that a lot of people in China live like slaves.

And that realization has definitely changed a lot of my consumption choices, but I'm afraid I'm in the vast minority.

I read this about 13 times and either you make no sense at all or I have a brain tumor.

Don't bother throwing stats. Had this debate on facebook after the 47% video with a friend and after a shiatload of facts debunking the idea that welfare/SNAP recipients stay on forever, he finally said "you can throw stats all you want but I don't need to cite what everyone knows is public knowledge."

My sister is the perfect example of the GOP's Welfare Queen. Her record time at the same job was 7 months at a pizza joint, and that was about a decade ago. She has two girls; one lives with the father and my sister hasn't contacted her in about 6 years. The other lives with my dad's ex wife, a few miles away, and gets a visit every few weeks at the park or something.

It pisses me off. She's the reason I can't convince my in-laws of the benefits of a social safety net. In their eyes, every welfare recipient is exactly like her.

ongbok:DROxINxTHExWIND: udhq: I don't necessarily approve of the anti-welfare thing, but I get it. I lost my home and business to a fire a couple of years ago, and ended up living on the street for a while. I'm still pretty liberal, but that experience definitely pushed me to the right.

It was basically all about the realization that the philosophical underpinnings of conservatism were true: the world is a zero-sum jungle, and eventually, as a matter literally of survival, people have to decide whether they want to be predators or prey. In most of the industrialized world, we are lucky to have corporations take on that moral burden on our behalf, but it's still there. In this country, thanks to cheap consumer goods, we live fairly well because of the fact that a lot of people in China live like slaves.

And that realization has definitely changed a lot of my consumption choices, but I'm afraid I'm in the vast minority.

What are you going on about? Living in poverty pushed you to want to help people less? Chinese slaves?

/WTF am I reading

Somebody trying to make some crap up to prove the point that people on welfare are bad and he is better than everybody else because he pulled himself up by his bootstraps with no government help at all.

No, absolutely not. I thought I was pretty clear that I still believe strongly in the social safety net.

My point was that I found myself in a position where I had 2 choices: to die or to steal. And that just made me realize that that was how it had always been, even before I was homeless. The only difference is that I previously had the luxury of being able to pay WalMart. et al. to do my stealing for me.

ongbok:iaazathot: AbbeySomeone: For every story like hers there is at least 1 that gets knocked up and feels entitled to gov't assistance. Some people grow up like that and it's all they know.

No, no there isn't. The statistics on it are pretty clear. 85% get off of assistance within 18 months. A few more take longer, and then, yes, there are those who are on long term, usually due to permanent disability.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

So much this.

People don't want to stay on welfare because it isn't that much money and they would rather find a job that pays them more than the welfare check they are receiving. But people like Abbey don't believe this because they think that a welfare check is enough to buy lobsters, steaks and pay the monthly note on a Cadillac.

Bullsh*t. I got it for 3 months when my daughter was young and after I found a job and paid for childcare I was still not wealthy but didn't have to answer to anyone else.Welfare should be a safety net and something that is available to everyone that has contributed to the system.

ghare:AbbeySomeone: For every story like hers there is at least 1 that gets knocked up and feels entitled to gov't assistance. Some people grow up like that and it's all they know.

To be fair, she's pretty much a case of someone that sorta deserves to be judged for being on welfare:

- Married someone that apparently literally everyone in her life told her was unreliable (to the point she pushed away everyone in the family so hard that they wouldn't let her sublet)- Had children far too early in a period where birth control wasn't exactly rocket science- Settled in an extremely expensive area of the country- Intentionally chose a degree with low employment prospects

All of those things are entirely her fault. Literally everything she didn't control was in her favor (social workers checking in on the kids, welfare allotment, food stamps, etc). If you want sympathy for your sob story, you have to be having trouble because of some kind of bad luck or forces beyond your control, having trouble because your ability to make decisions sucks isn't going to get a lot of tears from the audience.

//Not that there's anything wrong with issuing welfare to idiots, it's part of why it's there. This woman going on about how no one should judge her, though, is stupid. People are allowed to judge other people, and it's entirely reasonable to find her wanting.

AbbeySomeone:ongbok: iaazathot: AbbeySomeone: For every story like hers there is at least 1 that gets knocked up and feels entitled to gov't assistance. Some people grow up like that and it's all they know.

No, no there isn't. The statistics on it are pretty clear. 85% get off of assistance within 18 months. A few more take longer, and then, yes, there are those who are on long term, usually due to permanent disability.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

So much this.

People don't want to stay on welfare because it isn't that much money and they would rather find a job that pays them more than the welfare check they are receiving. But people like Abbey don't believe this because they think that a welfare check is enough to buy lobsters, steaks and pay the monthly note on a Cadillac.

Bullsh*t. I got it for 3 months when my daughter was young and after I found a job and paid for childcare I was still not wealthy but didn't have to answer to anyone else.Welfare should be a safety net and something that is available to everyone that has contributed to the system.

Do you have a cite for the assertion you made? Because that is why people are telling you that you don't know what you are talking about.

There is no reason at all that someone's life should be ruined forever because they married the wrong person, they had children, where they live, or dare they get a non-STEM degree.She was doing nothing illegal, nothing damaging to herself or society, was educated and tried to make the best of a bad situation. No, she doesn't deserve to be judged. Go fark yourself.

jst3p:AbbeySomeone: ongbok: iaazathot: AbbeySomeone: For every story like hers there is at least 1 that gets knocked up and feels entitled to gov't assistance. Some people grow up like that and it's all they know.

No, no there isn't. The statistics on it are pretty clear. 85% get off of assistance within 18 months. A few more take longer, and then, yes, there are those who are on long term, usually due to permanent disability.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

So much this.

People don't want to stay on welfare because it isn't that much money and they would rather find a job that pays them more than the welfare check they are receiving. But people like Abbey don't believe this because they think that a welfare check is enough to buy lobsters, steaks and pay the monthly note on a Cadillac.

Bullsh*t. I got it for 3 months when my daughter was young and after I found a job and paid for childcare I was still not wealthy but didn't have to answer to anyone else.Welfare should be a safety net and something that is available to everyone that has contributed to the system.

Do you have a cite for the assertion you made? Because that is why people are telling you that you don't know what you are talking about.

/I know you dont//because you are wrong

Tell you what middle class white guy - when your life falls apart and you have to lower yourself to walk into a welfare office you can get back to me on what it is like OK. While you are in that office take time to experience the people around you.

There is no reason at all that someone's life should be ruined forever because they married the wrong person, they had children, where they live, or dare they get a non-STEM degree.She was doing nothing illegal, nothing damaging to herself or society, was educated and tried to make the best of a bad situation. No, she doesn't deserve to be judged. Go fark yourself.

AbbeySomeone:Tell you what middle class white guy - when your life falls apart and you have to lower yourself to walk into a welfare office you can get back to me on what it is like OK. While you are in that office take time to experience the people around you.

You don't know me, nor where I have been and what I have seen. I don't know you either. I do know that you made a statistical assertion:

For every story like hers there is at least 1 that gets knocked up and feels entitled to gov't assistance.

I would like to know if you have a credible source that verifies your assertion or if you are a liar. Pretty simple, sugar-tits.

AbbeySomeone:Tell you what middle class white guy - when your life falls apart and you have to lower yourself to walk into a welfare office you can get back to me on what it is like OK. While you are in that office take time to experience the people around you.

I do find it hilarious that you beg for fark-welfare in your profile:

Update - we're tired of working on a hundred year old goddamn house and I have occasional insomnia. Please sponsor me for TF again so I can vote against some of the crap that gets greenlit.

There is no reason at all that someone's life should be ruined forever because they married the wrong person, they had children, where they live, or dare they get a non-STEM degree.She was doing nothing illegal, nothing damaging to herself or society, was educated and tried to make the best of a bad situation. No, she doesn't deserve to be judged. Go fark yourself.

Of course she deserves to be judged, as do we all. How else is she going to learn if there are no negative consequences and reinforcers of those consequences. She also deserves to be helped and not be cast into a ditch to die like a dog nobody loves.

This idea that we should not judge people is wrong, nor express those judgements is wrong. We should judge the bad or wrong behaviors and decisions for what they are, bad and wrong. We should express those judgements so that the person who is making those decisions understand why they are being judged and hopefully take actions to correct the behaviour we find objectionable.

udhq:I don't necessarily approve of the anti-welfare thing, but I get it. I lost my home and business to a fire a couple of years ago, and ended up living on the street for a while. I'm still pretty liberal, but that experience definitely pushed me to the right.

It was basically all about the realization that the philosophical underpinnings of conservatism were true: the world is a zero-sum jungle, and eventually, as a matter literally of survival, people have to decide whether they want to be predators or prey. In most of the industrialized world, we are lucky to have corporations take on that moral burden on our behalf, but it's still there. In this country, thanks to cheap consumer goods, we live fairly well because of the fact that a lot of people in China live like slaves.

And that realization has definitely changed a lot of my consumption choices, but I'm afraid I'm in the vast minority.

so the answer is obviously that we in the US should live like slaves, too. oh heck, everyone can be slaves!

jst3p:AbbeySomeone: Tell you what middle class white guy - when your life falls apart and you have to lower yourself to walk into a welfare office you can get back to me on what it is like OK. While you are in that office take time to experience the people around you.

I do find it hilarious that you beg for fark-welfare in your profile:

Update - we're tired of working on a hundred year old goddamn house and I have occasional insomnia. Please sponsor me for TF again so I can vote against some of the crap that gets greenlit.

Whatever. I've never paid for TF. You might find a hobby better than stalking, but perhaps it fills you with some sense of false empowerment. You don't have a leg to stand on in this debate and you know it so go ahead and use diversionary feeble tactics.Substantiating your 'knowledge' of poor women might be a good start.

AbbeySomeone:jst3p: AbbeySomeone: Tell you what middle class white guy - when your life falls apart and you have to lower yourself to walk into a welfare office you can get back to me on what it is like OK. While you are in that office take time to experience the people around you.

I do find it hilarious that you beg for fark-welfare in your profile:

Update - we're tired of working on a hundred year old goddamn house and I have occasional insomnia. Please sponsor me for TF again so I can vote against some of the crap that gets greenlit.

Whatever. I've never paid for TF. You might find a hobby better than stalking, but perhaps it fills you with some sense of false empowerment. You don't have a leg to stand on in this debate and you know it so go ahead and use diversionary feeble tactics.Substantiating your 'knowledge' of poor women might be a good start.

You don't know me, nor where I have been and what I have seen. I don't know you either. I do know that you made a statistical assertion:

For every story like hers there is at least 1 that gets knocked up and feels entitled to gov't assistance.

I would like to know if you have a credible source that verifies your assertion or if you are a liar.

Slaves2Darkness:Of course she deserves to be judged, as do we all. How else is she going to learn if there are no negative consequences and reinforcers of those consequences. She also deserves to be helped and not be cast into a ditch to die like a dog nobody loves.

This idea that we should not judge people is wrong, nor express those judgements is wrong. We should judge the bad or wrong behaviors and decisions for what they are, bad and wrong. We should express those judgements so that the person who is making those decisions understand why they are being judged and hopefully take actions to correct the behaviour we find objectionable.

We're not talking about bad manners at the dinner table, farkwit.The negative consequences were something she already experienced with a broken marriage, unsupportive family, bad job situation, and stuck to raise two kids on her own. We don't need any self-righteous blowhards like yourself biatching about her food stamps in the checkout line at the grocery store to make it worse.Again, she's making the best of a bad situation and should not be scorned for it. If you have no helpful advice, keep your farking mouth shut and keep your judgement silent.

partisan222:udhq: I don't necessarily approve of the anti-welfare thing, but I get it. I lost my home and business to a fire a couple of years ago, and ended up living on the street for a while. I'm still pretty liberal, but that experience definitely pushed me to the right.

It was basically all about the realization that the philosophical underpinnings of conservatism were true: the world is a zero-sum jungle, and eventually, as a matter literally of survival, people have to decide whether they want to be predators or prey. In most of the industrialized world, we are lucky to have corporations take on that moral burden on our behalf, but it's still there. In this country, thanks to cheap consumer goods, we live fairly well because of the fact that a lot of people in China live like slaves.

And that realization has definitely changed a lot of my consumption choices, but I'm afraid I'm in the vast minority.

so the answer is obviously that we in the US should live like slaves, too. oh heck, everyone can be slaves!

God bless America, where being conscious of your consumption choices=living like a slave.

AbbeySomeone:For every story like hers there is at least 1 that gets knocked up and feels entitled to gov't assistance. Some people grow up like that and it's all they know.

I know that makes you feel better about yourself.. but your wrong. for every 6 or 7 stories like hers there's one story like what your telling. The vast majority of people who get welfare get off welfare and go on to lead productive lives off the dole.

goatleggedfellow:So this all started when her husband walked away from his obligations and left her neglected and destitute.

Nice microcosm of conservative culture in this country. The winners can never win enough and the losers can never lose enough.

She chose to get knocked up by a guy living in his van. If only there was some sort of sign that could indicate that this fellow wasn't the type to take responsibility for himself and others. And yes, if there was an article about the guy I'd be condemning the guy as well. But this article isn't about him. It's about her.

I'm sure there are dozens of other success stories like hers. It's going to be a real shock to the other 50 million when we hit the wall like Greece and these lazy assholes have to fend for themselves.

Slaves2Darkness:This idea that we should not judge people is wrong, nor express those judgements is wrong. We should judge the bad or wrong behaviors and decisions for what they are, bad and wrong. We should express those judgements so that the person who is making those decisions understand why they are being judged and hopefully take actions to correct the behaviour we find objectionable.

Ugh. And yet again perspective is lost. You know what we should judge people on? Murder. Graft. Rape. Hatred. Abuse. Lying. Inflicting pain or privation on others.