Evening Update April 22, 2013

It’s time for Part Two of my “Building a world” update. Before we proceed however, a little housekeeping stuff. First, we’re getting close to that all-important final week for our Kickstarter. We should pass 1.3M later tonight and our numbers are continuing to grow, albeit a bit more slowly than we all would like. While I expect that we will get a last-minute surge, it would be nice if our surge wouldn’t have to be so large. From our end, we will be begin tomorrow talking more about the lore of Camelot Unchained, followed by the races, classes (including a description of the BSC idea I have for stealthers) and much more. I am hopeful that these updates will help convince some additional fence-sitters.

Secondly, our big reveal for the building, housing and mining systems in Camelot Unchained was extremely well received by our backers as well as people outside our group. We saw a nice bump on Sunday but as per above, we need to keep bringing in new backers.

Third, programming has been awfully busy with Andrew happily integrating SmackHammer's networking code into the Unchained Engine and Tim has been working on a demo of how the Building System could look in Camelot Unchained. I don't have an ETA at the present time for when they will be ready for demonstration but knowing them, it will be in the next day or two.

As always, we have the best backers in the brief history of Kickstarter. You folks are simply amazing!

-Mark

Building a world – Part Two

Blueprints

In Part One of this update, I detailed some of the keys elements of the game’s building, housing and mining systems. Now it’s time to address blueprints and then talk about how all of this will play into the core RvR aspects of Camelot Unchained.

One of the unique aspects about Camelot Unchained’s building system is the concept of blueprints. Building structures in an RvR game like Camelot Unchained will certainly be fun in the beginning. However, if you have to manually and slowly rebuild the structures every time the enemy realm destroyed them, it could quickly become a “quit point” for many gamers. That’s why we are using blueprints to both enshrine the hard work that our builders do and to also make rebuilding destroyed structures faster (not fast) and easier for them.

Blueprints do not allow a player to instantly rebuild a structure, especially a complicated one. However, they do allow the builder the ability to simply “build by the numbers” as opposed to having to rebuild every cell, prefab or construct manually. Blueprints also allow the builder to get help, from his realm mates or even an NPC, on his rebuilding process (which speeds up the time it takes to build/rebuild a structure). There are two different ways that players create blueprints in Camelot Unchained.

The first way is by successfully creating a structure, any kind of structure. Once that has been accomplished, a player can choose to have the structure magically translated into a blueprint himself (if he has chosen to also study basic architecture skill), ask another realm mate to do it for him or to pay for an NPC member of the Architecture Guild (working name) to do it for him. Once this is done the player will be able to keep the blueprint, trade it, sell it and/or rent it out to other players. These plans are not skills in the traditional sense so you don’t want to lose them. If that happens they are gone forever so you’ll want to keep them nice and safe.

The second way a player can make a blueprint is through an architect’s interface. Using the interface, an architect can build a prefab and/or structure on “magical paper” and then build it himself or have it built by another player. This interface should be easy to master for anyone who has played “city building” types of games.

In terms of their overall place in the game, think of blueprints as items. They can be bought, sold and traded by players. Players can also rent blueprints to other players for a single use. A house built with a blueprint cannot be blueprinted, even if it is changed, to protect the creator of the blueprint. Players can also submit certain types of blueprints to the realm for review and, if approved, possibly included in “Realm Approved Blueprints” for other players to buy and use themselves. Blueprints are also discoverable - found in the Depths and other places. Finally, blueprints have their own levels. If a high level architect makes a blueprint, it will have some additional bonuses to it such as increased durability, lower production cost, etc. While non-crafters can build certain structures (based on the rating of the structure) crafters will simply be much better at it than RvRers.

Blueprints are an exciting aspect of our building system and we believe that they are also a nice addition to the genre, no matter what game uses it. To summarize, blueprints in Camelot Unchained:

• Can be created from combined prefabs + cells.• Sometimes allow players to hire NPC builders (builder/player is faster, better though) to complete them.• Can be duplicated if permitted by creator.• Allow construction to proceed faster if multiple players work off the same blueprint.• Allow faster and easier reconstruct/repair.• Can be rated with crafters’ blueprints having a higher rating and RvRers a lower rating.• Can be sold/traded & discovered.• Can be approved by the Realm.• Can be used as a base and then decoration/decals can be applied.

RvR

Since I first described these systems, there have been a lot of questions about how all of this fits into the core RvR systems of Camelot Unchained. Hopefully, I can answer some of them with this update but if not, more updates are coming.

First, each plot of land will have permissions attached to it. Players and/or the realm are able to claim certain plots of land and these permissions determine who and what can be done to the plot. Certain plots cannot be built on, others will allow certain player(s) permissions to do so and others will be tightly limited as to the item(s) that can be built on it. For example, to help discourage intra-realm griefing, a mine might have excavation permissions but not building permissions or the building permission might be limited to builders of a certain skill level. These permissions are not binary so expect us to spend a lot of time getting this just right as they play an important role in these systems.

Once you have permission to build on a plot outside of a safe area, that the enemy can destroy structure. Now, unlike as suggested by the video, the destruction will take some time, depending on how the building is constructed, what it is made out of by the builders and how it is reinforced. You won’t be able to simply walk up to a stonewall, swing your might hammer and then like Jericho, the walls come a-tumbling down. Strong, well-built walls will require a lot of force to make a hole in them, let along knock them down. You might be able to climb over them with ladders but also don’t expect that you can simply run a builder up to the wall and he’ll instantly make a stone staircase, that’s not how building works in Camelot Unchained. Building is not a slow, laborious process but it isn’t as fast as it is in games such as Minecraft. Frankly, if the system worked like that, it would discourage people from protecting structures and add in the likelihood of keep trading. If you can destroy a structure though, your side will gain some items from the rubble. However, rather than destroying the structure, you builders can help you deconstruct it.

Deconstruction is simply construction in reverse. Builders go to the structure that has been targeted for deconstruction and they take it apart. Deconstruction is also a skill so players get better at deconstruction the more that they use it. The higher the skill level of the builder(s), the more of the structure the builder will be able to recover. Accidents can happen during reconstruction so it’s not an automatic “I-Win” button for the victorious side. Players can also capture a plot, not destroy the structure and then decide to occupy and use it.

While builders are better at building and salvaging, RvRers can still participate in this aspect of the game; just don’t expect them to be very good at it! They can get better over time, before they reach the soft-cap, and cannot get any additional skills after that. RvRers can also repair certain items (“field repairs”) but their skill level will also limit them to what they can do in this regard as well.

An item that is left unattended will degrade over time whether it is part of the action or simply left in an open field. Areas that are also more unstable will have higher degradation rates as the Veilstorms will have a greater effect on them. This will help cut down on possible “builder spam” that could result as the game matures and builders have more resources to “play” around with. Additionally, the storms will also be a mechanic that we would employ in the event of heavily unbalanced server populations.

While mining in one’s home areas is a necessary part of the game, most of the really good stuff is found in the more dangerous parts of the world, including the Depths. Holding on to these mines and getting the supplies out, even if your time of control is short, is an important aspect of the game. While I know this will, at some level, encourage zerging - mining is not a fast snatch and grab operation, so the zerg will want to protect the miners and try to hold on to the mine for a while and that means stopping or leaving a squad or two to protect it.

Supply lines are also an important part of RvR. While we don’t want RvRers spending all their time escorting caravans of crafters and/or materials, the ability to weaken an enemy’s supply lines can play an important role in siege warfare. Besides the obvious advantages of slowing down the enemy’s building efforts you also get a new set of luggage for your trouble!

Finally, while we will have some ruined structures outside of the limited safe zones, players will build most of the important structures. Through utilizing a combination of crafters, builders and RvRers, certain magical items will need to be built. For now, let’s call one of these types of items, stabilizers (working name). With the Piercing of the Veil and the Veilstorms, the world has become a very dangerous place. These items help keep the world as it should be, fighting off the influence of the storms and lessening the destructive power of the storms. Realms will want to repair/build these items as quickly as possible to both strengthen their hold on captured territory but also to gain other benefits from them. These items can be housed in any type of structure but, of course, the more secure the better. Stabilizers are only one of many types of items that players will both build and protect in RvR; others will be powerful relics of another age or legendary items that were created by the storms.

Here’s a summary of how RvR and these systems are intertwined:

• Al plot have permission levels.• Players who capture a plot have to weigh the benefit of Salvage vs. Destroy vs. Capture. • Crafters are better at salvaging, and they gain bonuses for deconstructing.• Destroying a structure means less resources gained.• RvRers can build simple constructs to help in RvR. They can also repair, but not as good as crafters but better than NPCs but not as close to skill of a crafter.• All structures/prefabs have limited durability especially in RvR intensive areas.• Supply Lines are an important part of RvR as well. Players need to keep the supply lines open as long as possible to allow materials to flow.• The deeper players push into contested area, the better the rewards.• Structures (such as keeps) can be built free form or from approved plans. Plans can be submitted to the realm for approval.• Player can sacrifice structures to prevent them from falling into the hands of the enemy.

Bernhard has it right I think. In a game that rewards teamwork like this will you'll always be able to find a way to get involved, with or without a guild.

Back in the DAoC glory days I'd load up my Armsman with a ram, find some people heading off toward the fight, wherever it happened to be, and simply let people know that I had a ram. Bingo. Integral part of the siege.

If I was playing my Infiltrator (stealther class) in the early days I'd find a choke point of some kind and relay enemy movements and hopefully hunt a few enemy stealthers who had the same idea :D

Either way it was easy to show up and instantly take part in getting those stinkin Mids off our land ;) I'm thinking it will be with CU too.

@Anonymous - Because if any single character can do everything, why would you need to play with other people? The CSE guys are making mechanics that ENCOURAGE playing together, not just let you know it is an option. You're argument is flawed. So you prefer to only have one toon, fine. No one is making you make two. If you like killing more than crafting, make an RvR toon, and buy blueprints with your loot. Otherwise, just log over, once, to get the other side of the coin and be happy.

@Dennis - If you really want to be top tier in both aspect, well you have to make one of each.

And why not allow me to have both on 1 toon, with the same, if not more time invested to reach that goal. Some people like their toon and prefer to only have 1, why artificially force somebody to make multiple toons to reach the same goal, and in that way cause them to loose a connection to their avatar?!

I am going to speak to the campaign part of this update rather than the game aspect.

I think part of the current problem of slow pledges is understanding the reward tiers. Defiantely the most complicated tier system I have ever seen on kickstarter. I am probably not alone in being indecisive at what level I want to contribute at because I do not have a lot of time at the moment trying to decipher what tier has what and what it means to me. I am not even sure what some of the rewards items mean. Hopefully before the campaign ends I can sit down and figure it out.

Also, there is a big gap between some tiers, especially the 75-110 range. People have budgets, if someone is willing to contribute up to 100 but the next level is 110 they are just going to drop it to the 75 tier. Not so important at the higher tiers because those are the all in types.

@Tom M.
I'm sure you and I aren't the only ones, that will not have as much spare time for the game, as others :)

In my mind CU even caters more to us than other games.
You don't need a guild for instances or raids - you can just join the fray.
There is always going to be some action going on. A crafter will always be needed someplace. A fighter will always find a frontline.

Played a game called Shadowbane ages ago. Love the ideas of castle building. Careful how you do the pillaging. It was so easy for a guild to tear down your city that rebuilding once or twice was more than the casual player could handle. As many peeps came in the front door they left the back after one or two lost cities. Make sure you give the defenders a fighitng chance and a fun strategy.

Oh wow. We will be able to design and build buildings however we want??? Holy $#£¥ that's cool! The only other games I'm interested in that are in development, 1 offers prefab buildings and the other offers prefabs that you won't be able to enter for the foreseeable future! I'm just stunned. As far as the PvP aspect, they have plenty of time to introduce it and still top the 2meg mark, look at SotA's recent KS.

Mark on different note:
My work hours and days off constantly change making it impossible for me to commit to being in game. Being part of a guild is an extremely hard task. I hear your mantra of huge clashing PvP wars. Do you see any value of soloers? Will players like me be able to enjoy your vision of this game? Knowing with the launch of games most gamers get into guild since there is a rush to build guilds numbers. Then like most games only the core groups that are RLF maintain the guilds. As being a “casual player” Will there be “start up guilds” or alliances that one could join?

Hello Mark !
Some questions came to my mind : Since the RvR builing system will allow players to build their own castles etc.. :
- How the game will manage the equality between realms ? I mean, the game has to be equal for each, because for example if the Depths' control is based on the number of RvR holdings ( and this is still an example ), we can't allow a realm to build 15 castles in its own unsafe zone while the other only has 4 ! ( Or maybe I'm stuck with the idea that each realm has its own unsafe zone and it's not the case, maybe there is only one unsafe zone for all ? ).
- Any plan to limit the number of constructions per zone or set a minimum space between two constructions big constructions ? I think it's normal to have towers near a castle ( with a certain limit ), however it's not to have a castle built just next to another !

• RvRers can build simple constructs to help in RvR. They can also repair, but not as good as crafters but better than NPCs but not as close to skill of a crafter.

Absolutely HATE this! The same failure was done in original DAoC, which meant you needed 4-5 extra toons to be able to master all the crafts. Lateron they finally came to their senses and allowed you to skill up to max on all crafts on 1 toon. Saved you from having to re-login a zillion times.

I understand that with the crafter class, that they should get a benefit. But I'd prefer it if there was no soft-cap on RvR toons, but have the XP / skilling up rate be reduced, so that it takes maybe twice as long to skill up on an RvR toon.

Great update Mark, this kind of reminds me of a cross between Eve's blueprint system and Ultima Online's house design system, the one that came out later in the game's development.

I'm not sure some are quite getting just how important this all is, and what a massive (positive) impact it will have on the game and it's longevity - looking forward to it. :)

As for the RVR update; wipe the froth from your mouths - as Mark said, it's coming shortly.
Why do you think the real RVR stuff is coming in the later part of the kickstarter? Could it partly be due to kickstarter's typically getting a huge surge in pledges towards the end?

You want to build on the excitement and ramp it up with the updates, no sense in putting your best stuff out all at once. I'm pretty sure Mark knows exactly what he's doing and just how much RVR is the main focus for many - as it is for me, but I also love and appreciate hearing about building side of things! :)

I've heard quite a bit about an NPC helper, and I think you should take some notes from SWTOR. I would LOVE to have a fully customizable NPC Partner, with gear and skills and all (though more passive for sure), that I could order to garrison any objective my realm owns. If that objective comes under attack for any reason, I could get to a safe spot, and play as my NPC partner using the mechanics that will go into the depths player controlled monster system. I won't have to sit around to defend, I could have a henchmen for that, and still get to enjoy playing the experience.

As someone that's in it because of the crafting, I am really stoked about everything you have told us in the last 3 days.
This mechanics are going to give this game a unparalleld longevity. I am really looking forward to see, how it pans out.
This project just has to get funded!

But I do understand the nervousness of the RvR'rs and I am curious to hear more about the other concepts of the game. I suppose it's not easy to line up all your information without spamming it and getting people interessted by handing out small portions of it.

I recommend that you bring in Warts brother to present the key mechanics for RvR!

All these updates ARE about RvR. This is not a PvP Arena. This is an RPG. This is about WHY making RvR and what to fight for. And it is brilliant. I'm absolulty not worried about the last 9 days, what we´ve seen so far makes me really sure that we get great ideas und infos about the details of the gameplay. You build up such a world from bottom and every decision you make is influenced by the world you are creating, so this is the right order to do things.

I'm with Mark Sims on this one. I understand that your trying to illustrate innovative ideas (some of which may help bring in the PvE hold-outs) and I do love getting all these game details...but I would like to see CSE selling this to the core PvP'rs...

I'm a pvp mmorpg pusher amongst my friends (the fore mentioned Mark is one of them)... I would love to see more updates that help me sell this KickStarter to my hardcore PvP friends. Fork-over some of your plans for combat, class dynamics, racial concept art, death penalties, and ideas on zerg busting (load balancing)...

So glad to read the answer to my worries in the former update. The fact that RvR'ers CAN do some building and repairs was a big concern for me. You didn't mention if they can do a bit of mining as well, which is worrying me, as like I commented on the last update, standing around doing NOTHING while guarding the miners will be very boring gameplay.

I also have to agree with the many posts here that the lack of info on the actual RvR mechanics and classes etc is a bit of a blunder when it comes to information schedual.

Most of us (probably all of us) came here for the chance of kicking other realms butt and further the glory of our own, so this is what is closest to our hearts and most important to your backers.

This building and crafting seems awesome, don't get me wrong, but its definitely not what got me to back this game.

You do mention in this update that there will be more talk about the RvR and classes in the near future, I just find it odd, that that's not where you started.

Here to hoping it will bring more backers, if not, I hope that the final 3 days more people than me will double their pledge or at least add a little bit, so that we can get a chance to see this game in action some day.

I love all of this stuff for building. I personally really want to make a Crafter so I can build all kinds of nifty things in the realm.

I am with a lot of other people here though Mark - we really want to hear more about how the combat system will work. I mean, that's what we signed up for - a strictly RvR, player-stomping game! The whole concept of RvR only is what brought a LOT of us ex DAoC players over here because that's what we loved so much about that game. So while I greatly appreciate all of the info and insights you've given to the crafting side - being that it's my personal focus - I think it's only fair that if you're going to receive all this backing with the promise of an amazing RvR game, that you put a little bit more focus on the fighting side so that we all know what we're getting into. I honestly think that if you revealed more of this we could get a lot more people on board with Unchained!

I agree that I would be interested in hearing more about the RvR mechanics, and class types, but I get the focus on crafting. That really seems to be the core novelty in this game, which is as it should be, since that is one of the least developed aspects of other MMOs. Team PvP is also somewhat underdeveloped, so it makes sense that is your main focus.

Re fighting: Honestly, you could create something massively novel, just by adapting ideas from non MMO games. Pull your spellcasting mechanics from Magestorm, your archery from Elder Scrolls (forget tab targeting, just AIM! How is this not the norm?), and if you are really ambitious, your melee from CLANG (or if you only want to be somewhat ambitious: Mount and Blade). Point is, combatives are a heavily developed part of the gaming world, so IMO, making it "perfect" is really more important than making it new.

Degradation of the structures may not actually be all that necessary. If there is a functional mechanic for deconstructing that allows for complete deconstruction (all the way down to the plot) and is at least somewhat faster than building, I believe that the players will clean away excess structures even if they are "spammed"--which would be odd in the first place, since I am guessing building new structures does not come cheap. They get resources for doing so, and if the landscape really is cluttered, some of us will naturally want to unclutter it. Additionally, I would kind of like to be surprised by the occasional elaborate yet abandoned structure in the middle of nowhere, build long ago in preparation for a forgotten battle. Point being, consider holding off a little on the veilstorms for degrading buildings, at least in the first few weeks after launch, until it becomes clear whether, or to what extent, clutter is actually a problem.

Additional suggestion: stop being so scared of NPCs! I get that this is not a PvE game, and I think that is a very wise move (makes balancing for RvR so much easier when you don't have to consider how the same skill sets will be used against monsters). But used well, NPCs can wonderfully supplement the RvR, generally by doing the jobs players are likely to find boring. Players love attacking castles, capturing mines, and raiding caravans...and while defending against such attacks is fun too, sitting around and waiting for an attack that might or might not happen is rather dull. These defense-oriented jobs are perfect for hireable, NPC guards.

Superbacker

Gah didnt get to finish my thought:
MJ already said that the rest of the KS will pretty much be lore, rvr, class information.

Just because you aren't playing the game to be a crafter or for the housing aspect doesnt mean others are not. To be honest, I'm interested in housing but far more interested in building offense items and defensive structures.

The veilstorms sound interesting! I like that there is a built in mechanic that can give a clean slate if things become stale. A very good idea. Nice concepts and i can't wait to see them put into practice.

Great update! It answered some of my questions in regards to what happens when my house gets pillaged! Looking forward to more updates and especially the ones about classes and races! Thanks for all your hard work!

There are some angry little elves in here tonight. Anyhow, good update.It is important to know how this world will work and grow. I look forward to destroying it all and murdering all I find in the process. Im waiting patiently for a race, class, rvr, realm rank, skill tree, etc. update.

I'm myself a former Daoc lover who played it for about 4-5 years and I thought it would be just a silly dream in seeing something even close to it again and not all these tiresome wow-clones. Now CU comes and the closest "daoc2 ish" feeling there ever was and been anxious about this since day one but lately I've become more and more worried.

I know MJ says "don't panic" and not aiming too. Many ppl here like myself have already done alot for this KS already. As for me I've rec alot of irl friends, old ingame ones, on my FB page, FZ heck even some from my wow guild (sry for swearing :p) without sounding like a begger and not copy paste spam same walls of text everywhere but insted taking my time with each one and talk about this.

I also feel enough is enough. I think many here are waiting for these so called "major updates" and its down to less then 9 days now. Sure I LOVED housing in daoc but its just one (but very good) thing in it all. People want to hear more about classes, rvr and other stuff. They been talking about crafting for 1 week now. My point here is, if this continues how few days will be left for (other) ppl to hear the other good stuff.

When it was 14 days to go we needed about 45k/day to hit 2Mil, now with 9 days we need 77k/day. Yes some will rage on me for saying this but let me tell those folks "I might not agree with what you say but would defend to my death for your right to say it". So I hope these ppl will show me the same compassion. Constructive critisism is one thing but flaming and shouting and stuff like that is something else.

I've been optimistic all along but I do see why some are questioning this, even droping their pledges. I am NOT saying MJ and his team are doing a bad job here or such. I do apologize for this long post and for my grammar. I'm swedish so bare with me. As of right now even with the smaller increasing backer numbers it kinda feels we backers need to double or tripple our amounts in order for make this happen, which we shouldnt need too imho as stated earlier, we've done more then enough, MJ even says this to be true.

@david kerns
Well, this is part of the forced socialization bit of the game. Nobody will be able to do everything, everybody will need the help of somebody else to complete his skills. The fighters need healers, the healers need fighters, both need crafters and the crafters also need them.
About the archer troll bit i think i read somewhere than the classes wouldn't be race restricted, i'm not to sure of myself on that one though.

@Mike Henderson
What @Zift Ylrhavic Resfear said seems right. I too am hoping that crafters or builders will be able to specialize in at least a few things. IE building, tailoring and metalworking, not necessarily three things, but maybe 2. That would allow him/her to build castles/keeps and other buildings, but also be able to construct swords and other things.

On a side note, I'm extremely excited for this! I really, really, really, really hope it funds!

@Thomas Lippolis and Joseph Chaney
Just wait the next big update, i'm sure it will talk about it.
How can you expect to explain the RvR part properly when you don't even know how the world will look like?
That's why they needed to explain how building will work. Just the fact of having the choice of destroying, capturing or deconstruct the enemy structure will have an impact on the gameplay.
If they included it without talking about the building part first you would just have been wondering about it and asked for more explanation anyway.

Everything sounds good. I particularly like the supply line concept. In DAOC, my core group would usually go out with only 4-5 people. We'd always look for ways to avoid the zerg, avoid core 8-mans, and not pick on lone folks. We'd peck around the edges of battles, find ways to get a small skirmish--looking for even matches but typically fighting against the odds. Picking on supply lines seems like a good way to do something like that.

i know it's weird but you remember Uppland ?
Do it bigger, twice, and add the housing zone in there ? You lead an army of 200 vikings, you dominate the rvr map, you reach Uppland, you destroy a part of the houses, you make your way to the building who hides the relic (a staff or an horn by example), you touch the relic and you are teleported to your main city with it, being a hero and leaving your army burn what they can, die and /rel. (i am one of the crazy killers thirsty for blood, sorry.)

I'm still frustrated with the concept of Crafter OR RvR'er ... why can't one character be both an RvR and a crafter?? ... I also never liked the concept of skills restricted classes... if I want to roll a Troll archer, I ought to be able to!

I am not sure some of you are getting this whole crafting/building thing. You aren't just building "houses". You are building keeps, towers, defensive positions with seige weapons, traps, and the like. As stated in the Update, the group will be separated into "plots". Each plot will have certain requirements for who, with what skills, can be built on it.
These are updates about the battleground. A battleground we will shape. A battleground that changes as players adapt to the strategies of other players.

Don't get me wrong, I am interested in classes, skills, roles, and all that too. But even when they put them all out there, there's no certainty that what a specific class does, what its roles is, or what skills it has will not be changed due to balancing and testing before launch.