"people are more afraid to be called a racist than they are afraid to be

:01:42.

:01:46.

wrong about calling out child abuse", which has inhibited

:01:47.

:01:50.

exposure of wrong-doing. She asked, "Why are we not

:01:51.

:01:53.

commissioning research to see what is going on and how we need

:01:54.

:01:55.

to change what is going on, It's a good question,

:01:56.

:01:59.

so we are going to ask it for the first part

:02:00.

:02:03.

of the programme this evening. First, Rabiya Limbada

:02:04.

:02:05.

reports from Oxford. Nens, some of the 18 and one woman

:02:06.

:02:30.

convicted of abusing girls in Newcastle tsm men convicted were

:02:31.

:02:36.

mainly British-born, and came from Bangladeshi, Pakistani, Indian,

:02:37.

:02:38.

Iraqi, Iranian and Turkish communities.

:02:39.

:02:44.

A report in 2011 by the child exploitation and online protection

:02:45.

:02:50.

centre identified over 2000 potential localised grooming

:02:51.

:02:52.

offenders, ethnicity data was only available for one third. Of these,

:02:53.

:03:00.

49% were white, and 46% Asian. These figures include both group and

:03:01.

:03:04.

individual cases of grooming. But, they are stark when you

:03:05.

:03:09.

consider the UK Asian population is round 7%. I can hear a woman getting

:03:10.

:03:19.

slapped about. A police call made by a guest who was is concerned about

:03:20.

:03:23.

what he could hear in the room next door to him in Exford. In 2013 seven

:03:24.

:03:28.

men were jailed for abusing six girls in Oxford over an eight year

:03:29.

:03:33.

period. In that case, known as operation bullfinch two of men were

:03:34.

:03:38.

of east African origin and five Pakistani, a Serious Case Review in

:03:39.

:03:42.

2015 called for research into why a significant proportion of people

:03:43.

:03:46.

convicted in these kinds of cases are of Pakistani and or Muslim

:03:47.

:03:51.

heritage. So far, that research has a been forthcoming.

:03:52.

:03:55.

The Muslim community in Oxford are still trying to answer those

:03:56.

:04:01.

question, themselves. I think quite often their fathers are disconnected

:04:02.

:04:03.

from what it is is like to grow up in England. They have come from back

:04:04.

:04:08.

home, and so these boys are trying to navigate themselves through an

:04:09.

:04:12.

awful lot of emotions and challenges, and their fathers can't

:04:13.

:04:16.

give them the right guidance or the right advice. So they find it

:04:17.

:04:21.

elsewhere, and often that leads to bad company. Hear many of the

:04:22.

:04:26.

victims of the grooming gang were picked up girls as young adds 11

:04:27.

:04:31.

plied with alcohol and drugs and subjected to the most appalling

:04:32.

:04:35.

sexual abuse, there have been efforts by community groups and

:04:36.

:04:40.

religious leaders to get people to talk openly about what happened.

:04:41.

:04:46.

Many say not enough has been done. We should stop pussyfooting about

:04:47.

:04:53.

and says these are Asian men, they Japanese, Korean, Malaysian? They

:04:54.

:04:58.

are Muslim of Pakistani extraction, Bangladeshi descent, Turkish

:04:59.

:05:00.

connections whatever, why are we after Fred to say they are Muslim

:05:01.

:05:05.

Who why are we being politically correct? Unless we really tackle

:05:06.

:05:09.

this head on, we are not going to solve this. OK but whose

:05:10.

:05:14.

responsibility is this is this We the Muslim community have a great

:05:15.

:05:20.

responsibility to condemn this in publish there are 2 thousand mosques

:05:21.

:05:22.

in this country. How many do you think tomorrow will be nameling and

:05:23.

:05:27.

shaming all of those 17, 18 people. The biggest challenge now facing the

:05:28.

:05:30.

authorities investigating these cases, is how to get Muslim

:05:31.

:05:35.

communities to trust them enough, to tell them what is happening in their

:05:36.

:05:38.

tell them what is happening in their midst.

:05:39.

:05:40.

As you heard, the statistics say that Asians are about 50% more

:05:41.

:05:44.

likely to be convicted of a sexual offence than the rest

:05:45.

:05:46.

For street grooming offences more specifically,

:05:47.

:05:49.

But before we move on, a quick statistical point.

:05:50.

:05:53.

It's dodgy to make ethnic or religious generalisations

:05:54.

:05:55.

comparing Muslims and non-Muslims, on the basis of a tiny

:05:56.

:05:58.

Even if a Muslim man was ten times more likely to be

:05:59.

:06:05.

convicted of a sexual offence than a non-Muslim - which he's not -

:06:06.

:06:08.

You are literally talking about comparing a population

:06:09.

:06:12.

a population that is 99.96% non-offending.

:06:13.

:06:23.

group, and it makes little difference to the group overall.

:06:24.

:06:29.

So you have to be careful about sweeping judgments

:06:30.

:06:31.

on the differences between these groups.

:06:32.

:06:33.

However, that being said, a lot of people think

:06:34.

:06:38.

that the numbers understate important cultural characteristics

:06:39.

:06:40.

of different religions and that the Muslim community more

:06:41.

:06:42.

So with me now is a panel, exclusively Muslim,

:06:43.

:06:48.

The journalist Anira Khokhar, the founder of British Muslim

:06:49.

:06:56.

Youth Muhbeen Hussain, the film-maker and journalist

:06:57.

:06:59.

Mobeen Azhar and Saba Zaman, a journalist based in Bristol.

:07:00.

:07:03.

Ing and shaming all of those 17, 18 people.

:07:04.

:07:06.

The biggest challenge now facing the authorities investigating these

:07:07.

:07:07.

cases, is how to get Muslim communities to trust them enough, to

:07:08.

:07:10.

tell them what is happening in their midst. Good evening. I want to

:07:11.

:07:12.

started whether we are framing this OK by saying we have a Muslim panel

:07:13.

:07:15.

discuss bhag is a Muslim problem. Muhbeen. Is that, do you reck nigh

:07:16.

:07:21.

that as a problem. No we are framing it incorrectly. We have had a guy

:07:22.

:07:25.

come on in the earlier piece saying it is not Japanese or these

:07:26.

:07:32.

different culture, Islam is a religion of all cultures, the

:07:33.

:07:37.

largest Muslim population in the world is Indonesia, to say this is a

:07:38.

:07:41.

Muslim problem. These grooming gangs were individuals that were using

:07:42.

:07:47.

alcohol, drugs and having sessions exploiting these young girl, I don't

:07:48.

:07:51.

know what is Islamic about drinking alcohol and exploiting young girls.

:07:52.

:07:55.

You want to separate it from the religion? Do the rest of you feel

:07:56.

:08:02.

that? He has a fair point. There are cultural parallels that are being

:08:03.

:08:08.

made, and religious parallels across the media, generally, there are no

:08:09.

:08:12.

religious parallel has been made so in your intro it is interesting.

:08:13.

:08:18.

What I do find interesting is we have a Muslim panel here, but this

:08:19.

:08:23.

situation is not just exclusively Muslim community, it is across all,

:08:24.

:08:25.

but it doesn't mean it doesn't happen and it needs to be addressed.

:08:26.

:08:30.

What do you feel There is a thing here, there is a pattern, that

:08:31.

:08:33.

reoccurring whenever this happen, I am sure you can relate to this. When

:08:34.

:08:39.

you hear these stories breaking, you wince when you hear Muslim names,

:08:40.

:08:44.

and as a community, we are really uncomfortable and really used to

:08:45.

:08:49.

reacting. We are used to reacting and saying this is nothing do with

:08:50.

:08:53.

us our or community. I don't think anyone in their right mind would say

:08:54.

:08:58.

this is a theological issue, they are doing this because they are good

:08:59.

:09:02.

Muslim, known would say that, having said that, we have to acknowledge

:09:03.

:09:08.

that sex and sexuality and gender and respect for the opposite gender,

:09:09.

:09:15.

are issues within certain parts of the south Asian community, the Arab

:09:16.

:09:18.

community and large sections of the Muslim community. These are things

:09:19.

:09:22.

that we have to discuss, in our communities and we have seen this

:09:23.

:09:26.

pattern, in Newcastle and Rotherham and we can't shy away from these

:09:27.

:09:29.

issues. I go back to you on that, do you agree with that? It is a

:09:30.

:09:34.

different way of framing it, but do you buy what is being said?

:09:35.

:09:38.

Partially we have to look at this, but recognise we are dealing with

:09:39.

:09:42.

it. Let me give you a clear image of what had in Rotherham, when the

:09:43.

:09:46.

Rotherham grooming scandal came about the British Muslim youth

:09:47.

:09:49.

organised the first demonstration against these criminals that were

:09:50.

:09:52.

claiming to be from our communitiches we demonstrated. You

:09:53.

:09:56.

will never see the far right come out against Jimmy Savile. I have not

:09:57.

:10:00.

see the EDL outside the BBC studios. We have people coming out. In fact

:10:01.

:10:05.

it was a Pakistani man who recognised these people and it came

:10:06.

:10:12.

out. Help us out. It is between these different interpretations of

:10:13.

:10:14.

how we frame the problem are are you? The labelling is incorrect. I

:10:15.

:10:19.

don't think it is a Muslim problem, as the rest of the panel have

:10:20.

:10:23.

suggested and we happen to be Muslims, which it would have been

:10:24.

:10:27.

nice to have other religions because it is not just the Muslim community

:10:28.

:10:31.

who have the issue, we have seen many cases where there has been

:10:32.

:10:34.

white groups, that have been grooming and there has been young

:10:35.

:10:39.

children being raped but we don't label them as white Christian

:10:40.

:10:43.

grooming gang, we label them by name or we label them as just a group,

:10:44.

:10:46.

and I think it is unfair that that is not the same, these are criminals

:10:47.

:10:51.

at the end of the day. They should be treated like that. Even if they

:10:52.

:10:55.

weren't, as I have seen across the board, the media hasn't called it

:10:56.

:11:00.

out adds a Muslim specific case in this particular case today. I

:11:01.

:11:07.

mentioned it earlier I think when even if it is not due the names and

:11:08.

:11:11.

the cultural associations there are cultural assumptions that are made

:11:12.

:11:14.

when there are people from certain communities with certain names

:11:15.

:11:18.

backgrounds, this is from the south Asian diaspora. It is hard to

:11:19.

:11:23.

separate that. It does exist. Can I ask you, start us off on this, about

:11:24.

:11:28.

the cultural issues attitudes to sex, you kind of raised this, you

:11:29.

:11:31.

clearly think there is a bit of an issue. Of course there is. It made a

:11:32.

:11:37.

programme a few I think about a year ago called The Muslim Sex Doctor I

:11:38.

:11:43.

spent time shadowing an imam working in this field, and he was very open,

:11:44.

:11:48.

he would tell me within, and I know this, you guys must know this from

:11:49.

:11:52.

within the Pakistani community there are issues in terms of the narrow

:11:53.

:11:57.

definition of the kind of women who deserve respect, this is a cultural

:11:58.

:12:02.

thing, it is not a religious thing but we, we will use this word that

:12:03.

:12:08.

means honour and we will see a woman who is wearing the hijab, who cooks

:12:09.

:12:13.

and clean, who is the Queen of the home, she deserves respect. Now what

:12:14.

:12:16.

happens then, when you have people who are raised in those

:12:17.

:12:20.

environments, and they get jobs as taxi drivers and working in

:12:21.

:12:23.

takeaways and they join the night-time economy. That is an

:12:24.

:12:27.

ongoing theme in all these case, you have these men who have grown up in

:12:28.

:12:31.

this climate, who all of a sudden are face to face with women who

:12:32.

:12:36.

don't fit that model. So women who might like a drink or women who wear

:12:37.

:12:41.

short skirts, or who are quite loud. And that doesn't fit with their

:12:42.

:12:45.

definition of a person, that deserves respect. That is a problem.

:12:46.

:12:49.

You have to address that. And following on from that. I think

:12:50.

:12:54.

there is an issue within not just the Pakistani but the south Asian

:12:55.

:12:59.

community in terms of women having that level of respectment so for

:13:00.

:13:03.

example, you know, in a family, let us say there is a son and daughter,

:13:04.

:13:09.

the son will allowed to go outside, stay out to about 10.00, possibly

:13:10.

:13:12.

have a girlfriend, whereas the girls have to stay at home. If you are

:13:13.

:13:15.

bringing children up in that mind set, they only know they have to

:13:16.

:13:19.

respect that individual in the house, mother, daughter. That could

:13:20.

:13:23.

be a sweeping generalisation as well. I do think, I do think that

:13:24.

:13:28.

this is something that the Pakistani community, the south Asian community

:13:29.

:13:31.

need to look into. As you said the word honour is a burden on girls

:13:32.

:13:36.

mainly. And so they have to live with that, anything they do is

:13:37.

:13:40.

reflective on the whole family and the community. I don't think it is

:13:41.

:13:45.

fair. There is an issue. But let us not conflate one issue with another.

:13:46.

:13:48.

There are these men and we are talking about a criminal mind-set of

:13:49.

:13:53.

individuals, who like people like Jimmy Savile live two lifestyle,

:13:54.

:13:58.

they live a public lifestyle where they want to show themselves as good

:13:59.

:14:01.

community member, the same time when people say they only see certain

:14:02.

:14:05.

women as fair game, let us be honest, if you look at the report,

:14:06.

:14:09.

there were findings on the Jay report, they found 150 young girls

:14:10.

:14:14.

out of the 1400 were Pakistani girls,ment the problem is these

:14:15.

:14:18.

people aren't differentiating because they are sick men, but

:14:19.

:14:24.

Pakistani girls, are finding it very difficult to speak out, these are

:14:25.

:14:27.

very sick men. Difficult to speak out. I am glad you raised that, is

:14:28.

:14:33.

there an issue round the ability to converse, or to come forward and say

:14:34.

:14:38.

I have been attacked or abused, or I have been raped within the Muslim

:14:39.

:14:42.

commune tyre, forget the white girl issue. Can talk about the south

:14:43.

:14:52.

Asian community diaspora. I am also from a community. From the first

:14:53.

:14:55.

generational perspective it has been something we don't necessarily talk

:14:56.

:14:58.

about because there is the concept of honour, but it is changing and

:14:59.

:15:03.

this group... Is it? There are people, there are practitioners on

:15:04.

:15:08.

ground who are actually working with women, and I can say it is not an

:15:09.

:15:13.

exclusive Muslim issue, but there is sometimes generally from the first

:15:14.

:15:16.

generation that it was slightly difficult. There is a sense of

:15:17.

:15:20.

keeping the honour of the community or protecting women, not because we

:15:21.

:15:23.

are protecting the men, but sometimes that is how it folds out.

:15:24.

:15:28.

Covering up crime or burying crime. In the Rotherham case we know the

:15:29.

:15:32.

community did go forward and speak to police.

:15:33.

:15:37.

The police did not speak to the victims either but I agree the

:15:38.

:15:42.

police need help from the community and we need to be active and address

:15:43.

:15:46.

these issues ourselves. Completely and I think it is changing but it is

:15:47.

:15:51.

achingly slow. What I mean by that, and again, I'm sure you guys can

:15:52.

:15:56.

relate, growing up, I grew up in Huddersfield in Yorkshire, I went to

:15:57.

:16:00.

the mosque regularly, I know that my experiences did not match up with

:16:01.

:16:06.

the conversations at the mosque. If you are a young man and you want to

:16:07.

:16:10.

talk about contraception or you want to talk about certain feelings, or

:16:11.

:16:13.

you just want to talk about sex, you're not going to get that

:16:14.

:16:16.

guidance from the mosque. That is the last place. Because it is a

:16:17.

:16:21.

religious place. Not just in terms of it being a religious place but in

:16:22.

:16:25.

terms of, look at the state of our mosques, the majority of them still

:16:26.

:16:29.

today are run by Immonens who don't even speak the local language. Rabin

:16:30.

:16:34.

but they also don't go out and groom young girls? But what I'm saying and

:16:35.

:16:37.

this is really important, if you were raised in an environment where

:16:38.

:16:40.

you can't talk about things like sex, that is going to lead to

:16:41.

:16:45.

problems. Isn't that a cultural dichotomy? It's going back to the

:16:46.

:16:50.

point it is not Islamic. You've all agreed that if there's a problem,

:16:51.

:16:53.

it's cultural but the question is, let's pin down what the cultural

:16:54.

:17:00.

problem is. What I mean is I'm trying... We have ruled out religion

:17:01.

:17:04.

at least, for at least some of the arguments. From my own experiences,

:17:05.

:17:08.

one issue that I personally have not only come across on a personal level

:17:09.

:17:11.

but also have seen as I've been working nationally is the fact that

:17:12.

:17:15.

sometimes the police worries about community tensions and so, they are

:17:16.

:17:21.

not willing to always go in and talk to the community and talk to the

:17:22.

:17:26.

community leaders who I call self appointed because most of them are

:17:27.

:17:29.

self appointed leaders, and actually discuss things that are happening.

:17:30.

:17:33.

That is the argument effectively that political correctness gets in

:17:34.

:17:36.

the way of policing or enforcing or sorting out some of the problems.

:17:37.

:17:40.

I'm going to have to come in here, I think that is the biggest lie that

:17:41.

:17:44.

is ever told, the biggest excuse, you ask any Pakistani mail going

:17:45.

:17:46.

into an airport whether they don't stop and search them because of

:17:47.

:17:53.

racism. You are more likely to be and that is preconditioned thinking

:17:54.

:17:55.

that this individual may be a criminal. So there's no racism in

:17:56.

:17:59.

that Pakistani drug dealers. Why is there racism in this? I tell you

:18:00.

:18:02.

why, we have been fighting this case for three years with South Yorkshire

:18:03.

:18:06.

Police and only now have they admitted there was no political

:18:07.

:18:08.

correctness in the Rotherham issue and it was their own internal

:18:09.

:18:11.

failings because what happened is these offices did not believe the

:18:12.

:18:15.

young girls because they were from working-class backgrounds. That

:18:16.

:18:20.

problem is widely recognised. But it's racism, why are you stopping

:18:21.

:18:23.

and searching Pakistani males like never before in airports? You are

:18:24.

:18:28.

not racist then. Can I ask whether because a lot of people think part

:18:29.

:18:31.

of the solution to all of this will be for a much more open

:18:32.

:18:35.

conversation, more brutally honest, more openness within the community

:18:36.

:18:38.

and between communities but that is going to mean sometimes things like

:18:39.

:18:42.

this. We are going to gather Muslims around and ask if there is a Muslim

:18:43.

:18:50.

issue. I think that is very facile to say that. Does that ever scare

:18:51.

:18:55.

you? I think the idea of gathering Muslims around, you know, I think we

:18:56.

:18:59.

are starting to see for example this demand that I shadowed, he was

:19:00.

:19:04.

organising conferences to talk about sex which is Brett Kearney heard of

:19:05.

:19:07.

in the Muslim community and I think that's a great thing to do. But the

:19:08.

:19:11.

Muslim community has to lead on that and it has only just started to

:19:12.

:19:17.

happen. I think it is important but where we have various voices from

:19:18.

:19:20.

various communities but we are not all representatives. No one is. We

:19:21.

:19:26.

are a huge Dyas brand communities and we can only speak of

:19:27.

:19:30.

individuals. -- a huge diaspora and communities. I would also like to

:19:31.

:19:39.

make a parallel... Very briefly. I know we ruled out faith earlier and

:19:40.

:19:42.

we talk about the Islamic context and is lamb as a sense of justice.

:19:43.

:19:47.

This isn't even about an Islamic context, it is about young girls

:19:48.

:19:49.

getting justice for a crime committed against them, just as if

:19:50.

:19:55.

the church when it comes to bishops and grooming young boys, I mean,

:19:56.

:20:00.

that is not necessarily... That is the same paradigms and the same

:20:01.

:20:04.

sense... We need to leave it there. We started the conversation and I

:20:05.

:20:07.

really appreciate you all coming in and having it. Thank you for joining

:20:08.

:20:08.

us. There has been quite

:20:09.

:20:09.

a lot of complaining Not perhaps as much

:20:10.

:20:11.

as United Airlines, obviously, but with IT problems and a lack

:20:12.

:20:14.

of free short-haul sandwiches, many say the once great flag carrier

:20:15.

:20:17.

has gone off the rails, Sometimes when consumers grumble,

:20:18.

:20:20.

it's a sign of a useless company. Sometimes though, it's a sign

:20:21.

:20:25.

of a company that is determined not to lose money by giving away things

:20:26.

:20:28.

that consumers don't Our business editor, Helen Thomas,

:20:29.

:20:30.

has been looking at which it is, on the case of the airline formerly

:20:31.

:20:35.

known as the world's favourite. MUSIC: "Flower Duet

:20:36.

:20:40.

(Lakme)" - Delibes. Worst ever business

:20:41.

:20:52.

class experience. I honestly didn't think this

:20:53.

:20:58.

actually happened, especially Everyone's a critic nowadays

:20:59.

:21:01.

and that's a problem if you were British Airways has been

:21:02.

:21:09.

having a turbulent time. It started last year

:21:10.

:21:19.

with sandwich-gate, the decision to drop free food and drink

:21:20.

:21:21.

on short flights. Then came May's massive IT

:21:22.

:21:27.

failure and with it, the accusation that snacks

:21:28.

:21:30.

and beverages weren't the only place Now, cabin crew

:21:31.

:21:33.

strikes over low pay. My concern is they are cruising

:21:34.

:21:45.

towards a crisis right now by ignoring the customer

:21:46.

:21:48.

and going too far By focusing solely on cost and not

:21:49.

:21:50.

on the benefits of investment in product and reliability

:21:51.

:21:56.

and labour relations provide, BA risks alienating its passengers,

:21:57.

:22:00.

including, especially, the higher value customers who fly

:22:01.

:22:06.

for business and pay higher fares. BA has lost altitude

:22:07.

:22:10.

in the airline rankings. This year's top ten

:22:11.

:22:13.

is dominated by Asian It's not exactly news that air

:22:14.

:22:15.

travel's changed since the days when British Airways and British

:22:16.

:22:35.

engineering stood for Still, there's a sense

:22:36.

:22:37.

that the overall BA experience has fallen some way since it sold

:22:38.

:22:47.

itself on a distinctly BA's management have charted

:22:48.

:22:49.

a particular course for the airline. It faces fierce competition from

:22:50.

:23:01.

the likes of Ryanair and easyJet. The boss, Alex Cruise,

:23:02.

:23:08.

has talked about economy travel as a commodity product,

:23:09.

:23:13.

or one where price is really And actually, it is a strategy that

:23:14.

:23:16.

has served the business Airlines are a notoriously tough

:23:17.

:23:20.

place to make money. But British Airways' profits have

:23:21.

:23:26.

soared to record levels. They jumped again in

:23:27.

:23:30.

the first half of this year. And that has helped its owner,

:23:31.

:23:35.

International Consolidated Over the last five years,

:23:36.

:23:38.

a focus on the bottom line means it has soared above European rivals

:23:39.

:23:50.

Lufthansa and Air France-KLM. This analyst thinks the bosses at BA

:23:51.

:23:55.

and parent IAG are getting Investors as a whole,

:23:56.

:23:59.

I think they see a management team that is seeking to break out

:24:00.

:24:05.

of the airline industry's historic To deliver better returns over

:24:06.

:24:09.

the long term and that ultimately benefits all stakeholders,

:24:10.

:24:19.

staff and customers alike. For those bristling at paying

:24:20.

:24:21.

for their sandwich, BA will be squeezing more seats

:24:22.

:24:23.

into its economy cabin. It wants to charge for more extras

:24:24.

:24:30.

like checked bags or Wi-Fi. And there's changes coming

:24:31.

:24:33.

at the front of the plane, too. BA's business class is pretty tired

:24:34.

:24:38.

compared to competitors', It is all part of a strategy,

:24:39.

:24:41.

trying to offer top-notch luxury at the front of the plane

:24:42.

:24:48.

and a cut-price, no-frills Today's hypercompetitive travel

:24:49.

:24:50.

market means tough choices. Still, some think BA is headed in

:24:51.

:25:05.

the wrong direction. BA right now presents

:25:06.

:25:08.

its customers with a very schizophrenic,

:25:09.

:25:13.

disjointed experience. In the US, L'Oreal cosmetics has

:25:14.

:25:16.

advertised for years, BA needs to take pride in the fact

:25:17.

:25:18.

it is a premium brand. It is OK for BA to charge a bit

:25:19.

:25:23.

more, provided that the value BA told Newsnight that being more

:25:24.

:25:26.

efficient enables the company to offer more low fares

:25:27.

:25:33.

and to invest in new aircraft, better facilities

:25:34.

:25:35.

and new technology. The question is whether PR troubles

:25:36.

:25:38.

at some point start to drag All businesses have to balance

:25:39.

:25:41.

keeping their customers happy with making enough

:25:42.

:25:46.

profit to survive. I think with British Airways,

:25:47.

:25:55.

there's a problem that expectations are anchored

:25:56.

:25:57.

in history and are not necessarily consistent with either a service

:25:58.

:25:59.

level that can be delivered profitably in this day and age,

:26:00.

:26:02.

or which even actually I think sometimes, people remember

:26:03.

:26:05.

things as being better That is one thing the airline

:26:06.

:26:08.

is unlikely to find itself short on. Donald Trump made more comments

:26:09.

:26:39.

on North Korea this evening - interesting ones, because he gave

:26:40.

:26:44.

the impression that he was reiterating his "fire and fury"

:26:45.

:26:48.

comments of the other day, but actually he could be thought

:26:49.

:26:55.

of as toning it down significantly. I'm joined by the BBC's Washington

:26:56.

:26:57.

correspondent Rajini Vaidyanathan. First, I think we have a clip of

:26:58.

:27:03.

Donald Trump. It's about time that somebody stuck

:27:04.

:27:07.

up for the people of this country and for the people

:27:08.

:27:10.

of other countries. So if anything, maybe that statement

:27:11.

:27:12.

wasn't tough enough, and we're backed by 100%

:27:13.

:27:16.

by our military, we're OK, let's talk to reduce body in a

:27:17.

:27:29.

them. He said quite a lot in answers to questions there. Do you feel he

:27:30.

:27:32.

was wrapping it up or toning it down? I think it was a bit of both.

:27:33.

:27:37.

This is quite similar to the pattern we have seen before in many ways

:27:38.

:27:41.

with President Trump. He makes a perhaps off-the-cuff remark and then

:27:42.

:27:46.

his aides Ray lit back and then he comes back guns blazing, reaffirming

:27:47.

:27:50.

it even more strongly. In that rhetoric, President Trump said he

:27:51.

:27:53.

wished he had gone tougher and been stronger than saying he was going to

:27:54.

:27:57.

unleash fire and fury but when you peel the rhetoric away and look at

:27:58.

:28:01.

exactly what it means, some journalists ask what is tougher than

:28:02.

:28:07.

fire and theory? He said, we'll see. President Trump said he was open to

:28:08.

:28:11.

negotiations but then said negotiations never work and have not

:28:12.

:28:15.

the decades when it comes to North Korea. He also refused to be drawn

:28:16.

:28:18.

on whether or not he is planning a pre-emptive strike but crucially, he

:28:19.

:28:23.

also called on China to do more. I was going to say because in some

:28:24.

:28:27.

ways, interpreting what you think all of this could be the Chinese

:28:28.

:28:29.

ears and you have to think about what he is saying in relation to the

:28:30.

:28:35.

Chinese. Absolutely right, in many ways, this was as much a message to

:28:36.

:28:40.

Beijing as it was to Pyongyang. In many ways, they are the power

:28:41.

:28:44.

brokers in all of this. In terms of reaching a diplomatic solution to

:28:45.

:28:49.

this ongoing crisis. That is also because Beijing is a key trading

:28:50.

:28:52.

partner with North Korea selling many ways, in terms of putting

:28:53.

:28:56.

economic pressure on Pyongyang, it is really down to China. Crucially

:28:57.

:29:00.

of course, those United Nations sanctions we saw last week being

:29:01.

:29:05.

voted in signed up by China and by Russia. That is a key thing, there.

:29:06.

:29:11.

What this shows overall is that despite the rhetoric we are hearing

:29:12.

:29:16.

from President Trump, his promise of fire and fury, he knows that right

:29:17.

:29:21.

now, he can't deliver that fire and fury in a vacuum. He still needs

:29:22.

:29:24.

cooperation and it is worth pointing out of course that President Trump

:29:25.

:29:28.

has a bit of a love hate relationship with China. We have

:29:29.

:29:32.

seen him play golf with President Xi Jinping in Florida and showered him

:29:33.

:29:35.

with praise and then months later, send tweets that he is simply not

:29:36.

:29:39.

doing enough. It is clearly that the relationship with trying -- with

:29:40.

:29:43.

China is a tricky one for President Trump to manage but clearly crucial.

:29:44.

:29:45.

Thank you for joining us. Time for Viewsnight now -

:29:46.

:29:49.

our opinion strand. And tonight Jason Hickel,

:29:50.

:29:51.

an anthropologist from the London School of Economics,

:29:52.

:29:52.

the writer of a book called The Divide, and who thinks we should

:29:53.

:29:55.

stop obsessing with economic Our addictions to economic

:29:56.

:29:58.

growth is killing us. Right now, the entire global system

:29:59.

:30:06.

is captive to a single idea. Politicians rise and

:30:07.

:30:09.

fall on their ability They promise that growth

:30:10.

:30:14.

will make our lives better. We can't have infinite

:30:15.

:30:18.

growth on a finite planet. We're already shooting our planet's

:30:19.

:30:26.

biocapacity by nearly 60%. Climate change, deforestation

:30:27.

:30:28.

and rapid rates of extinction. This crisis is due almost

:30:29.

:30:34.

entirely to overconsumption If you didn't think there was enough

:30:35.

:30:37.

TV out there already, you'll have a little

:30:38.

:32:02.

more choice soon. service today - at least for some

:32:03.

:32:04.

consumers in the US. It's videos, and they're

:32:05.

:32:07.

specially made for Facebook. It's one step on from Facebook's

:32:08.

:32:09.

goal to eat the whole internet, as one tech writer put it,

:32:10.

:32:12.

because this takes on TV. The videos won't be quite the same,

:32:13.

:32:15.

but it is competition for traditional TV, and the Amazon,

:32:16.

:32:18.

Netflix and YouTube platforms too. But here's a question -

:32:19.

:32:22.

are we being deluged with Let's it face it, we are not

:32:23.

:32:29.

short of great material. What's at stake here is that there

:32:30.

:32:44.

are lots of competing platforms, and they each want to entice us

:32:45.

:32:47.

with great content - What do you think of the Facebook

:32:48.

:32:56.

offer? Well, Mark Zuckerberg said 2017 would be the year of video and

:32:57.

:33:00.

there is a lot of competition in this space. But I think it is

:33:01.

:33:03.

important to recognise that what Facebook is offering is really

:33:04.

:33:08.

competition with YouTube an not with the likes of iPlayer and Netflix.

:33:09.

:33:12.

The content they are offering is largely short form, it is

:33:13.

:33:16.

interactive, it is live sport, it is factual, it is content we are

:33:17.

:33:20.

supposed to engage and interact round. It is different from the

:33:21.

:33:27.

content you see Netflix moving into, high end, global appeal, drama and

:33:28.

:33:31.

documentary. Documentary.? Couldn't Facebook put that other stuff on as

:33:32.

:33:34.

well? Maybe buying stuff from the BBC and putting that on the site and

:33:35.

:33:39.

making themselves the place you go to for all sorts of television? They

:33:40.

:33:43.

would need to want to invest a lot of money in doing that, and the

:33:44.

:33:46.

question is whether they want do that. There is no indication from

:33:47.

:33:50.

Facebook they really want to put that amount of money into either

:33:51.

:33:56.

licencing or creating content. OK. Lyndsey, there is a lot of TV round

:33:57.

:34:04.

and a lot of it comes from this competition between platforms. They

:34:05.

:34:07.

are trying to become the place to go. Is it sustainable. There has

:34:08.

:34:12.

never been a better time to be a viewer. There is fantastic choice

:34:13.

:34:17.

round at the moment, so I think, and generally competition is good. The

:34:18.

:34:20.

viewer is the person that benefits from that. It keeps, you know, the

:34:21.

:34:27.

competition keeps... Are they making money Lyndsey? Because, there are a

:34:28.

:34:31.

lot of platforms an I wonder whether they are all making money or hoping

:34:32.

:34:34.

they are going to be the one that is standing at the end of the battle

:34:35.

:34:39.

between them? It's a good point. There is less pressure on them to

:34:40.

:34:43.

make money because they have so much finance from the city etc, but yes

:34:44.

:34:47.

they are making money and there are different ways you do make money

:34:48.

:34:53.

from TV. Some of it is ad funding, sop of it subscription and some

:34:54.

:34:58.

comes from the BBC license. Facebook is ad funded so this seems like it a

:34:59.

:35:04.

clear commercial play, Mark Zuckerberg made it clear he sees the

:35:05.

:35:07.

future to be about video but if you put it in context, if you look at

:35:08.

:35:12.

how much video, how much time people are spending watching video, on

:35:13.

:35:16.

Facebook, we spend about four-and-a-half hours a day, on

:35:17.

:35:20.

average, watching video, three-and-a-half hours is TV. On

:35:21.

:35:25.

traditional TV. It is about three-quarter, 2% is Facebook.

:35:26.

:35:28.

That is interesting. I thought it was higher than that. It is not

:35:29.

:35:33.

higher. And already there is a lot of video on the Facebook platform,

:35:34.

:35:37.

because we are scrolling down through our news feed. I doesn't

:35:38.

:35:41.

account for a lot of time. Do you think Catherine, people have called

:35:42.

:35:45.

it a golden age of television and there are lots, more shows than you

:35:46.

:35:50.

have time to watch, do you think it is sustainable? I think that we all

:35:51.

:35:56.

like watching video and there is definitely a market for different

:35:57.

:36:00.

kinds of video, I think the key thing is we have different

:36:01.

:36:04.

platforms, serving different needs, so what Facebook is doing is

:36:05.

:36:08.

providing content we want to share, that we want to interact round,

:36:09.

:36:11.

community building content. It is different. At the moment and from

:36:12.

:36:17.

their offer round Watch, it is a different service, to something like

:36:18.

:36:21.

BBC iPlayer and they are attracting, at the moment different ad revenue.

:36:22.

:36:26.

If you are a big brand, most of the big brands are advertise, most of

:36:27.

:36:31.

the advertising on Facebook is from small companies and from local

:36:32.

:36:34.

companies so there is a different advertising offer as well. Are there

:36:35.

:36:39.

too many platforms? Do consumer, will they have to choose between

:36:40.

:36:45.

Amazon or Netflix or do they get both. Or will it end up all the

:36:46.

:36:52.

programmes are on all the platforms and it doesn't matter. There is a

:36:53.

:36:57.

move for exclusivity. They are looking to buy content, in

:36:58.

:37:02.

perpetuity, for long time, ten years and lock it down to encourage people

:37:03.

:37:07.

to subscribe. There are a small number that will subscribe to

:37:08.

:37:12.

Netflix and Amazon and Now. Really people are going to choose. You

:37:13.

:37:17.

haven't got time to watch the stuff? How much money have we got to spend

:37:18.

:37:21.

on different subscription services. ? What tends to happen is the

:37:22.

:37:28.

biggest subscribers are existing subscribers to pay TV. What happens

:37:29.

:37:32.

if you love TV you really love it and you simply can't get enough of

:37:33.

:37:37.

it so o your point about is it sustainable? It is. We spend

:37:38.

:37:41.

three-and-a-half hours in the UK, in the US it is under four hour, in

:37:42.

:37:47.

Brazil is it nearly six hours you might argue we have head room for

:37:48.

:37:51.

growth on TV watching. I think that is probably good news for the likes

:37:52.

:37:55.

of us who work in it. Thank you both very much.

:37:56.

:37:56.

That's just about it for tonight, but we can't leave

:37:57.

:38:00.

without a word or two about Wales and the Welsh language.

:38:01.

:38:03.

If you saw last night's programme, we had a discussion on policies

:38:04.

:38:06.

to promote Welsh language, with a defender of government

:38:07.

:38:08.

efforts to get it more widely spoken, and someone who thought

:38:09.

:38:11.

Now our defender of Welsh did a perfectly good job,

:38:12.

:38:15.

but was someone who did not actually speak more than a bit

:38:16.

:38:18.

That is representative of a very prevalent group in Wales.

:38:19.

:38:21.

Most people don't speak it, and polls suggest most people

:38:22.

:38:23.

do support government efforts to promote it.

:38:24.

:38:26.

But understandably, we had more than few comments suggesting

:38:27.

:38:28.

that we had not done justice to the language, by discussing it

:38:29.

:38:34.

I'm not going to pretend that we disagree.

:38:35.

:38:37.

We think it would have been better to have a Welsh speaker too.

:38:38.

:38:40.

By luck, the National Eisteddfod is taking place this week so we can

:38:41.

:38:43.

play out with a highlight, the band Yr Eira - translated

:38:44.

:38:46.

All change into Friday. We get off to floors you start. Shallow fog but

:38:47.

:39:51.

already for Northern Ireland and Scotland, we have got the wind

:39:52.

:39:54.

strengthening, and the rain starting to move in. Will it ease eastwards

:39:55.

:39:59.

through the day, so that means that for most of the day, it will be

:40:00.

:40:03.

cloudier and windier, for Scotland with rain on and off, we may not see

:40:04.

:40:11.

that much rain, east of the Grampians, we might squeeze 22

:40:12.

:40:12.

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines, with Evan Davis. Stories include Newcastle street grooming and if the UK should 'de-grow' the economy. Plus British Airways in focus, Trump on North Korea and are we living through a TV golden age or bubble?