Chris Kresser’s ‘Your Personal Paleo Code’

This episode, we interview Chris Kresser about his new book ‘Your Personal Paleo Code.’ All of the studies we talk about can be found at www.chriskresser.com but take a bit of searching once you’re there. Here’s the one that we talk about that attempts to mitigate some of the ‘healthy user bias’ that crops up in a lot of modern research. The full transcript of the interview follows below. Leave a comment on our Facebook page and ‘Like’ Good Guys To Know to get entered to win a signed copy of the book, along with some great online extras from Chris. Enjoy!

Mitch: My guest today is Chris Kresser of chriskresser.com. He’s got a brand new book hot off the presses called “Your Personal Paleo Code.” It’s based on his very thorough interpretation of tons of nutrition research, as well as anecdotal examples from his own journey back to health, and his experience with his clients that he helps get healthier through diet and lifestyle change. For you crossfitters out there, if you’re not already familiar with Chris, you probably are familiar with Robb Wolf, who called Chris, “The most knowledgeable clinician in the paleo world.” Chris, welcome to good guys to know, that’s some high praise from another paleo juggernaut.

Chris: It’s great to be here mitch, I appreciate the opportunity.

Mitch: So I thought a good place to start out would be, we’ve talked about paleo on the podcast before, but it’s been a couple years; why don’t we start with just the strict definition of what paleo is, what’s the diet, what foods can we eat and not eat, before it gets the Chris Kresser treatment?

Chris: Ok, the paleo diet is based on the diet of our Paleolithic or so-called ‘caveman’ ancestors, and they ate primarily meat, fish, wild vegetables and fruits, nuts and seeds, and some starchy plants like sweet potatos, so the way that the paleo diet was first introduced, those were the foods that were emphasized. And eggs; which probably wouldn’t have been around during the Paleolithic because chickens weren’t domesticated at that point, but they almost certainly ate wild eggs from birds that they found and nests and things like that. So that’s the basic foods of the paleo diet, and that works really well, for a lot of people, at least for a period of time. It tends to lead to pretty spontaneous weight loss, without a lot of calorie counting, or eating bland, tasteless food. Or even counting macronutrients like fat or protein, or carbohydrates. But, I’ve found, in my work with patients, that, for many people, it’s unnecessarily restrictive, and I don’t think there’s any reason to avoid foods that modern research suggests are healthy when they’re well tolerated, just because our ancestors ate them. Out of some sort of paleo re-enactment idea.

Mitch: Let me read an excerpt from your book that kind of gets at that and then I’ll have you expand on what your structure looks like. It says “Therefore, they’d keep tomatoes, peppers, potatos, and other nightshade vegetables off your table forever. They’d have you bid a permanent farewell to dairy products, and all grains and legumes, but the science doesn’t support this stance so neither do I.”

Chris: Exactly, so, these are what I call gray area foods, and what I mean by that is that modern research suggests that they can be healthy when they’re well tolerated. And that means that some people will tolerate them well, and other people wont. We do know that people have dairy intolerance, actually 2/3 of the global population aren’t able to digest lactose, which is the sugar in milk. Beyond childhood. They don’t have the genetic programming that makes that possible. So there are quite a few people that don’t do well on dairy products. WE know that some people are intolerant to some of the compounds in nightshade plants, like eggplant and tomatoes and potatoes. We know that some people don’t do particularly well with beans and legumes. They cause bloating or gas, or other symptoms, and that people along the same lines, don’t do particularly well with gluten containing grains. Because now, the latest research suggests that 1/10 people are gluten intolerant. And these aren’t folks with celiac disease, these are folks with just a non-specific immune reaction to gluten that can manifest in a wide range of symptoms, everything from skin conditions like exema and psoriasis, to behavioral disorders like autism, to digestive disorders. So my argument is that some of these agricultural foods which have only been around for awhile, may be well tolerated but, the best way to figure that out is to do a 30-day challenge or reset, where you start with a pretty strict paleo diet, which is the best way to start with a clean slate. And then you add back in some of those gray area foods to see if you tolerate them, and if you do, great! You can continue to eat them, but if you don’t, you’re probably going to need to take them out of your diet, at least for a little while until you heal whatever the underlying issue is that’s causing the intolerance if possible.

Mitch: And your book does a good job of giving you the exact structure of how to reintroduce those, which order to re-introduce those foods in, which is really helpful.

Chris: Yeah this is something I kind of figured out on my own journey back to health, and in my work with patients, and it might seem to some to be a little bit methodical, but that’s necessary for most people because, otherwise, if you start. For example, if you do a 30-day paleo reset, and then you start just eating everything you weren’t eating on day 31, and you have a reaction, there’s no way of knowing what’s causing that reaction. So, you have to go slowly and re-introduce one food every 3 days and I outline which foods are best to reintroduce when, based on my experience working with patients. The good news is, although it’s a little more time consuming, at the end of that process, you have a really clear idea of what works for you and what doesn’t. And you don’t have to keep jumping from one diet program to the next, you just have your own diet. And that’s the one youfollow for the rest of your life.

Mitch: Yeah that’s one thing I certainly took away from your book; that it’s not like a lot of other diet books that give you the exact, regimented, foods to eat, in all three phases. Your’s is really using your own body as an experiment and figuring out what works exactly for you.

Chris: Yeah and I think that’s the key to long term success. With any kind of approach; fitness or diet approach. Is personalizing it to meet your unique needs. Because we do share a lot in common of course; we share a lot of genetic similarity, we’re the same species, but we have a lot of important differences too. There have been some genetic changes over the past 10000 years, up to 10% of our genetic code has shown evidence of recent selection. WE have different gene expression which is a field called epi-genetics. We have different lifestyles, different activity levels, different goals. So if you’re for example, 60 lbs overweight and you’re mostly sedentary, and you’re main goal is fat loss, I don’t think you should be eating the same diet as someone who is lean and wanting to put on muscle, and training for an upcoming high level athletic competition. It just makes sense that those two people would be following different approaches, but most diet books completely ignore that.

Mitch: So this makes a ton of sense intuitively. It’s what attracted me to the paleo approach a couple years ago when I first came across it. But it seems like to really convince the masses, you need some clinical research. And it seems like there certainly is some indirect evidence; a handful of studies that are direct evidence that the paleo template is a good starting point. I think it is plagued by problems that nutrition research has in general, right? Could you take us through a couple of those and maybe start with correlation versus causation which you talk about in the book?

Chris: Sure, let me start by saying that NO diets really have a lot of evidence behind them. With the possible exception of the meditteranean diet. The whole idea that low-fat diet has a lot of evidence behind it is not true. There are not very many studies that validated the effects of a low-fat diet on any significant end-points. They showed that it could lower cholesterol, but they never showed that that diet actually reduced heart attacks. So I think it’s kind of interesting how the low-fat diet is currently accepted scientific dogma, but there’s not any signigcant evidence to support it, yet people will often make the claim that ‘oh, paleo’s not based on any evidence.’ Well it’s based on a lot more evidence, actually, when you consider all the different types of evidence that are available than just about any other nutritional approach. So for example, we have archaeological evidence, where we study fossil remains, and archaeologists have detgermined that there was a significant decline in health when our hunter gatherer ancestors shifted to an agricultural diet and lifestyle. We have anthropological studies of contemporary hunter-gatherer cultures that show that they were remarkably lean and fit, and superior to us in just about every measure of health and fitness. And virtually free of all of the chronic inflammatory diseases that we consider to be normal today like diabetes, obesity, and heart disease. We have bio-chemical evidence, like studies on the nutrient content of common foods, that suggests that paleo is one of the most nutrient-dense diet approach there is. And that’s crucial because if you have sub-optimal intake of any of the 40 nutrients that the body requires to function, your’e not going to do well. And then, as you mentioned, there are already a handful of clinical, randomized, controlled trials. Which is the gold standard of evidence, on the paleo diet. There’s 9 now, that have very promising results, including reduction in weight, waist circumference, heat reactive protein which is an inflammatory marker, blood sugar, blood pressure, insulin sensitivity, and then lipid markers like LDL cholestoral, triglycerdies, and HDL. So I just wanted to start there because I often hear this claim that the paleo diet isn’t supported by research, and I don’t think that’s actually true.

Chris: But what paleo has that other diets don’t, is the archeological and anthropological evidence. Which is real evidence. Which is real evidence. If you talk to anthropologists who study this stuff, and archeologists as well, it’s pretty compelling. They’ve gone in and studied these contemporary hunter gatherer cultures and seen with their own eyes, the lack of modern disease. Now of course they have other issues like no emergency medical care, and death due to trauma and violence, tribal warfare, high rates of infant mortality because of lack of emergency medical care. But those are not problems that we face today. Most of us at least.

Mitch: How do you tease out on that anthropological and archeological. How do you tease out the correlation versus causation? We know that during the industrial revolution, we got shorter, so yes there’s correlation that our diet changed there, but how do we know?

Chris: Agriculture was when we shrank.

Mitch: Ah yes, sorry.

Chris: We never know anything really, with 100% certainty, but you can build arguments based on, so with that particular transition, you look at, ok so our ancestors shrank from hunter gatherer time to agriculture. What could have caused this, well let’s see. They were eating a very nutrient dense diet before. And all of a sudden they switched to a diet which relied on 3 or 4 staple crops that were not nearly as nutrient dense as the foods they were eating before. So they switched from eating meat and fish and vegetables fruits nuts and seeds, to wheat, rice and corn. Which are much lower in nutrient density than those prior foods they were eating. And then you can see that they started to develop tooth decay and anemia due to iron deficiney and diseases like rickets, and scurvy that are caused by micro-nutrient deficiency and you can see what happens with their bone density which starts to decline. And these are all clear signs, we know now, with our modern research, of micronutrient deficiency. And so the argument starts to make sense from a number of different levels. And YES, we can’t know that with 100% certainty, but we can piece together all of these different lines of evidence from different disciplines and it becomes a pretty , a more compelling argument to support a particular nutritional approach than any other nutritional approach. And that’s about the best we can do with the current information that we have.

Mitch: Let’s move to modern research. Talk to me about red meat, that’s one that we seem to get every three months there’s a new article that says a. red meat is ok, and then b. red meat causes cancer and heart disease.

Chris: Yeah it was like that for eggs and cholesterol for a long time too. I can kind of answer your previous question in this answer too, because the problem with research on red meat is that it’s plagued by something called the healthy user bias. So your listeners may or may not know that when we do nutritional research, most of the studies are called observational or epidemiological studies. That means they just observe the behavior of a group of people over a period of time and see what happens to that group of people. And so for example in a study on red meat, they might take a group of people and study them over 20 years and they’ll watch the number of heart attacks and deaths in that group. And then they’ll see how much red meat the people who died were eating. And if the people who died sooner than the people who lived longer, ate more red meat, then the conclusion of that study will be “eating more red meat increases your risk of death.” But there’s a serious problem with drawing that conclusion from that kind of research. And in the case of red meat, it’s this healthy user bias. So red meat has been demonized as an unhealthy food for the last 50 years. We all grew up believing that, and so anyone who eats more red meat in these observational studies, is likely to also engage in other behaviors that are unhealthy. Whether eating red meat is healthy or not, the fact that they’re eating it in the face of conventional wisdom that says it’s bad, shows that they are willing to engage in other behaviors that conventional wisdom says are bad and unhealthy which actually are. Like smoking, not exercising enough, not eating fruits and vegetables, eating lots of flour and sugar and refined processed foods. And in fact studies have shown that people who eat more red meat are more likely to engage in all of those other behaviors. So how do we know that it’s the red meat causing the increased risk of death and not all of these other behaviors? Well, one way you can know, is you can try to control for those confounding factors so that they don’t influence the outcome of the study. And unfortunately, that can never be done perfectly, but it can be done better in some studies than others. Some of the more recent studies like one published in the journal Circulation, covered 1.2 million participants that is a huge sample size. They found no correlation at all between fresh red meat consumption and heart disease or death. And that brings us to another problem with the red meat research, is that most of the early studies indicating connection between red meat and any disease outcome through fresh red meat consumption like hamburgers, steak, and things you buy and cook yourself or eat at a restaurant, and processed meat consumption. So hot dogs and prepared meats and all of that. There’s reason to believe that these could actually have different effects on the body because we have some research that suggests that high heat cooking can produce compounds that may be problematic if you eat too much of them. So the more recent studies on red meat have actually separated fresh red meat and processed meat consumption. And most of the studies that have done that have found no link between fresh red meat. Sometimes not even a link between processed meat, but sometimes there is. So, one of my other favorite studies that tried to eliminate this healthy user bias was one that looked at the health of people who shop at health food stores.

Mitch: Yes I was hoping you would get to this one because I heard you on another podcast and it’s really clever.

Chris: Yeah really clever, so they looked at the health of people who shopped at health food stores versus people who don’t. And they measured the outcomes. Primary outcomes were death from heart disease and overall death. And what they found is perhaps not surprisingly, people who shop in health food stores did live longer on average, and suffer fewer heart attacks than people who didn’t shop in health food stores. And of course it’s not because they shop in health food stores, per se, it’s just that that’s a general indicator for their overall state of health awareness. BUT, within the group of people who shopped in health food stores, there was no difference in lifespan or heart attacks between the omnivores (people who ate meat) and the vegetarians. So I think that’s a pretty compelling piece of evidence that confirms the effect of the healthy user bias in the other studies. That didn’t separate people in terms of their overall health awareness.

Mitch: So before we leave the topic of the evidence, imagine yourself in a parallel universe, where you have unlimited resources, unlimited money, unlimited time, how would you design the perfect study. I know you’ve spent tons of time picking apart these studies and finding the flaws in them, how would you compare the paleo diet to your average American government recommended… What would you have to do to get a perfect, definitive answer?

Chris: You’d have to take two groups of people, you’d have to isolate them in a metabolic ward, which means one group would follow the standard American diet, so we’d say they get 4-500 grams of carbs primarily from processed or refined flour and sugar. Eating lots of industrial seed oils, and lots of refined foods overall. And they continue to do that. And then you take a group of people and you put them on a paleo diet, and they live in this metabolic ward. And the reason you have to do that, is that that’s the only way you can be absolutely certain of what they’re eating. You control their food intake completely. So there’s a cafeteria. And the cafeteria’s would have to be separate so we make sure that none of the paleo people are sneaking big gulps in the back room with the other people. And then you’d have to control every other factor that you could possibly control. So you’d want to make sure they’re getting the same amount of exercise, you’d want to make sure that they’re getting the same amount of sleep, you’d want to make sure they are under similar stress. And many people are thinking this is probably impossible and you’re right, it is impossible. There’s no way to completely control for every potential confounding factor. And that’s why we’ll never have a perfect study that will answer these questions. But, if we’re talking about this parallel universe, it’s one of those things where you can approach the answer but you can never get the answer completely just because of the nature of humanity. We’re not robots, so you can’t perfectly ever control all of the potential factors that could influence the research. That would be pretty close if we did it that way, and it would cost about $500B! I’d have to be very rich in this alternative universe to pull it off.

Mitch: We’ll see if we can get you some more book sales and get you on that one. I should mention that that’s for any diet right? I’m not picking on paleo, any diet claim that you read like that, that’s what it would take, is an alternative universe. Recently US News came out with this report, I don’t know if you’ve seen it or not, that evaluated the 30 popular diets for 2014, and paleo came in dead last. So let me read the criteria for the listeners and a little blurb, and let you respond on how the personal paleo code kind of mitigates some of these. So the criteria for the top rated diets included: Whether they were easy to follow, nutritious, safe, effective for weight loss and against diabetes and heart disease. So those were the criteria, they totaled them up with experts that they didn’t say who the experts were. So then the blurb they wrote about it was “Experts took issue with the diet on every measure. Regardless of the goal, weight loss, heart health, or finding a diet that’s easy to follow, most experts concluded that it would be better for dieters to look elsewhere because of it’s restrictiveness. By shunning dairy and grains, you’re at risk of missing out on a lot of nutrients. Also if you’re not careful about making lean meat choices, you’ll quickly ratchet up your risk of heart problems”

Chris: Oh Boy…

Mitch: Lot’s to unpack there…

Chris: It’s hard to know where to start… Yeah Ok, so, the first thing is the idea that there’s just so much preposterous information in that paragraph it just boggles the mind. So human beings live for 2 million years without dairy and grains. So if dairy and grains contain nutrients that we really need, we wouldn’t even be having this conversation. We wouldn’t have made it to this point in time. And you know, if you look at modern, clinical studies on the nutrient density of foods as I mentioned earlier, even whole grains are at the bottom of the list. You have meat, fish, fresh vegetables, and fruits, nuts, seeds, herbs and spices. Those are all above grains in terms of nutrient content. What’s more, about 70% or 80% of the grains that people eat in this country are refined. They’re in the form of flour, which has basically no nutritive value at all. So the idea that we need to eat grains and dairy to be healthy is a joke. Now, we can talk more about dairy in a second, I don’t think dairy should necessarily be excluded from the diet, but, that premise is completely baseless. The idea that the paleo diet is not good for heart disease or diabetes, there’s actually solid clinical research that suggests that that’s not true. Some of those nine randomized clinical trials that I mentioned earlier that show excellent results from paleo diet, several of them actually were done on patients with diabetes and metabolic syndrome and they showed a remarkable decline in weight, waist circumference, insulin resistance, hyperglycemia, blood pressure, and several other markers of poor metabolic function, so that claim has no basis in reality. The safety of it is also… to claim the diet that we evolved on over 2 million years is unsafe is ridiculous. To claim that it doesn’t work for weight loss is absolutely absurd, we have you can spend 10 seconds on the internet and see some very impressive before and after pictures of people who’ve lost 60 70 80 lbs and more effortlessly on the paleo diet. And my experience working with patients, and any crossfit gym owner that puts people through paleo challenges can tell you that that’s not true. Any organization of “experts” that rates a diet that is based on POWDERS above the paleo diet, has instantly lost all credibility.

Mitch: You’re talking about Medi-fast?

Chris: Yeah, medi-fast and slim-fast diets were rated above paleo, that’s just a joke! I mean, I don’t know why anyone thinks that the US News and Wolrd report would have any kind of authority to rank diets and their effectiveness, and they didn’t even reveal who these “experts” were. But I think just about any physician, medical professional, or researcher, if you asked them whether a diet that’s based on powder and water is better than a diet that is based on real food that humans have been eating for the entire evolutionary history, I think you’re going to get a pretty clear answer there.

Mitch: Yeah pretty interesting to read the comments on that article. Pretty vitriolic.

Chris: I mean, regardless of what you think of paleo, to put the Slim-fast diet, and medi-fast above that is just so ridiculous.

Mitch: So in the unlikely case that all of our listener’s don’t go buy your book, give us one food item that we should try adding to our diet in 2014 that we would get some good nutritional bang for the buck, and then also, one thing to eliminate.

Chris: Ok, so, I’d say liver would be the one thing to add to your diet. I know a lot of your listeners are probably not too excited to hear about that, but the fact is it’s the most nutrient dense food we have available to us it’s extremely high in retinol, the active form of vitamin A, which is crucial for proper immune function, vision, brain function, it’s loaded with iron and B12, also crucial vitamins for several different aspects of physiology. It’s loaded with lots of different vitamins and minerals, and it’s really kind of nature’s superfood. A lot of people don’t like the taste of liver, but there are some things you can do to make it more palatable. One is to just take a small piece, maybe an ounce or an ounce and a half and add it to a pound of ground beef. And then chop it up, mix it altogether, and then use some seasonings like paprika, cumin, coriander, kind of like a tex-mex flavor, and sautee that altogether and you won’t really even taste liver. If you do that three times a week, you’ll be getting all the liver you need. You don’t need much because it’s so nutrient dense. 3 oz a week would be a great start. And you’ll feel like most of my patients I work with, you’ll feel a noticeable difference in your energy levels.
One food to avoid, I hate to jump on the bandwagon here, but I would probably say gluten because we now know that 1 in 10 people are gluten intolerant. And I cant tell you how many people come to me with all kinds of exotic health conditions that no doctor has been able to figure out, and that are you know, not even written up in medical text books because they’re so unusual. And I put them on a paleo type of diet and get them off gluten, and in a lot of cases the symptoms just resolve on their own without any additional attention. So I do think that gluten causes a lot of problems for a lot of people and if you haven’t tried removing it from your diet, and you are suffering from health problems, it’s definitely the first step you should take, probably not the last for a few different reasons, but it’s a first step.

Mitch: Full disclosure, when I finished your book, I started the 30 day reset as well. So I’m 10 days in, and one of the first things I had for the first time is that I made my own “Bone broth” Can you talk a little bit about bone broth?

Chris: Awesome, congratulations by the way. Bone broth is like soup stock, I’m sure a lot of your listeners have had that, but it’s home made and you make it with bones from either chicken, or turkey, or beef, any kind of red meat. You can also make fish bone broth with like salmon heads, for example can make a nice broth. And the reason that bone broth is beneficial is it contains a lot of minerals, and amino acid called glycine. And glycine helps to compliment some of the amino acids that you get from lean proteins like lean meat and egg whites, and things like that. Without going into too much detail, the amino acids in those lean proteins are beneficial to us, but they require glycine to sort of activate them and balance them out. And glycine is found in bone broth and some more gelatinous cuts of meat like brisket, oxtail, chuck roast, shanks, and things like that. So bone broth can really help the gut, in particular because glycine helps to regenerate the gut lining, and so many people are suffering from gut issues today which makes that really important. And it’s helpful for mental health as well. So how’s the reset going?

Mitch: It’s going well, I mean I would consider myself a pretty healthy eater beforehand, so it’s hard to get really in tune and see if it’s doing anything. Again, I’m also super-hyper-sensitive like we talked about to things like placebo and maybe it’s just that I’m spending an extra hour standing up in my kitchen every couple days, preparing my meals. But I think I feel better, but I didn’t have any serious issues so it’s hard to exactly tell.

Chris: Yeah, and usually the second and third 10-day periods are more revealing than the first. The first is still sorta your body kind of unwinding and getting adjusted, and then usually you see the biggest changes in the later period of the month.

Mitch: I’ll keep the listeners updated, and you as well.

Chris: Cool!

Mitch: You also devote part of your book to some non-nutrition factors that affect our health and well being. If you were to choose one or two of those that people should try in the coming year what would they be?

Chris: Yeah I would say sleep. Modern research tells us that the vast majority of people need 7-8 hours a night to function well. There are always outliers, you know, unusual people who need a little more or little less, but for most of us it’s 7-8 hours. Unfortunately, 1/3 people now are getting fewer than 6 hours a night, and that’s I think having a catastrophic effect on our help, because sleep affects every system of the body. Literally every cell in the body, therefore sleep deprivation is associated with every modern chronic disease from obesity to diabetes to heart disease, to auto-immune disease, to athsma, to allergies. So getting to bed earlier, making sure you’re giving yourself enough time for sleep and then improving the quality of sleep are important and I have tons of practical suggestions on how to do that in the book. The second one would be not sitting as much. So everyone has heard of the importance of exercise and physical activity overall, but I think one of the big messages coming through now with recent research is the problem with sitting too much EVEN if you’re getting enough exercise. That’s really a big surprised to many people. You can exercise, get the recommended amount of exercise each week which is 150 minutes of moderately intense activity. So you could like go to the gym 5 times a week for 30 minutes each time, but if you’re sitting for really long periods outside of that exercise, you’re still going to be at risk for early death and disease. So in the book, I share some strategies on how to integrate physical activity throughout your day. How to sit less, even if you have a job that requires you need to sit, and I think that that arguably has an even bigger impact than whether you “exercise” or not.

Mitch: You’d be so proud of me I’m standing at my stand up desk recording this.

Chris: Woohoo! Now people ask me the thing I miss the most when I’m traveling, and of course the first answer is my 2 and a half year old daughter, but my second answer is my treadmill desk. Because I’m just so accustomed now to not sitting, and on the road, you know, hotels haven’t quite caught up to that trend yet, so, I always have to sit when I’m working and it really bugs me.

Mitch: So was this book entirely written with you walking?

Chris: I walked over 2,000 miles while writing the book. It was great. I started writing the book at a seated desk, and I thought ‘I’m gonna kill myself if I do this’ and that’s when I got the treadmill desk, so it inspired me.

Mitch: To start closing up here, where to people get the book, where to people learn more about you? What’s next for Chris Kresser?

Chris: Well the book’s at personalpaleocode.com. You can learn more about it there, but it’s all the typical brick and mortar and online retailers, including barnes and noble, amazon etc. And my main website where I blog about research, evidence based topics is chriskresser.com. What’s next for me is just continuing this tour, which has been great fun to meet people and share some of these things about the book, and headed home in February to spend some long awaited time with my family. And then, get back to working with my patients, and who knows. Lots of stuff in the works, but not sure exactly what’s next yet.

Mitch: Excellent final words on why people should go pick up the book.

Chris: The key to health is optimizing your nutrition and lifestyle for your unique needs. Everyone is different, and you need a program that fits YOU instead of just following some canned approach. And that’s what my book will teach you how to do.

Mitch: My guest today has been Chris Kresser of chriskresser.com. Chris, thanks for coming on Good Guys To Know.