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Answer: Sometimes. But they mess it up sometimes even with wax and even more often with plastic. I've seen no more bad combs doing foundationless than I have using plastic foundation. Some of this appears to be genetic as some hives build good comb even when you do everything wrong. Other hives build messed up comb even when you do everything right and simply repeat the "mistakes" when you remove them. "

Re: My Wooden PF-120s

Originally Posted by Solomon Parker

A lot of people have attempted to go in that direction, but I don't know why.

I will tell you why I consider it a viable option. My thought is that the part of the bees vitality rests in drawing comb and that they inately know what they need in the colony. Or at least at some point they will get back to knowing what they need for comb type/size once we start letting them use their instincts to do so.

Originally Posted by Solomon Parker

That's going to happen no matter what you do. It will happen eventually, or with some hives, exclusively.

It just sounded like you were incinuating that the pf-120's were far and above superior and had this problem occur vitually never. You had said

Originally Posted by Solomon Parker

I can assure you PF-1xx frames work far better, producing ugly comb only about 1% of the time.

So by Michael Bush's quotes on the link I posted above it would appear that foundationless when done right has poorly drawn comb even less than plastic, so less 1% of the time? Well if that is the case it seems the only possible advantage may be a quicker transition from larger cell to the bees natural cell drawn foundationless.

Originally Posted by Solomon Parker

It will never be just 'natural.' However, if you want to get the job done, there is only one other option to get regression done in one fell stroke, and it involves even more plastic.

Not saying it (bee keeping) will be natural, but I am saying it will give the bees back more of the cards they need to be successful. This is just my book read opinion, not real experience so take it for what it is worth. I believe this will let the bees be bees.

Originally Posted by Solomon Parker

If you were looking for a more natural approach, I'd suggest catching swarms... Nucs would be the second option, a hive already in operation. Steer clear of packages.

Thanks for the advice. This is already where I am leaning if I can find the proper seller (I think I may have found one for nucs). I plan on doing a trap out of some of the bees form a hive in an ash tree on my property too (if they make this winter). I would love the chance to catch a swarm. I hope that day comes soon.

Re: My Wooden PF-120s

Originally Posted by Beelosopher

I will tell you why I consider it a viable option. My thought is that the part of the bees vitality rests in drawing comb and that they inately know what they need in the colony. Or at least at some point they will get back to knowing what they need for comb type/size once we start letting them use their instincts to do so.

Yes, I have heard that one before. Here is my conclusion. The bees do not know what they need because they are not living in a natural hive. That's why we get things that are so messed up sometimes.

Originally Posted by Beelosopher

It just sounded like you were incinuating that the pf-120's were far and above superior and had this problem occur vitually never.

Yes, but there are concurrently several cases on the docket. I thought we were discussing foundationless. Nothing is 100%.

Originally Posted by Beelosopher

I think you had said 1% or less of the time there was poorly drawn comb with pf-1xx products. So by Michael Bush's quotes on the link I posted above it would appear that foundationless when done right has poorly drawn comb even less than plastic, so less 1% of the time? Well if that is the case it seems the only possible advantage may be a quicker transition from larger cell to the bees natural cell drawn foundationless.

It is in fact not the case. I did some tests with foundationless this year and last. I did not get a single frame of any more than about 60% worker comb, which was at or above 4.9mm, possibly averaging about 5.1mm. In this area at least, if you want small cell, you have to do it with foundation, plastic or otherwise. This is why I use PF-120s and wax specifically for worker comb, and foundationless specifically for drone comb. It gives the bees what they need, and more importantly, it gives me what I want. That's what beekeeping is all about.

Originally Posted by Beelosopher

This is just my book read opinion, not real experience so take it for what it is worth.

I am speaking from real experience. It is where I choose to speak from, and if not in rare cases, I provide a disclaimer.

I wish you success in your endeavors. It seems we are getting more than the usual number from New York these days. Any idea why that may be?

Re: My Wooden PF-120s

Yes, I have heard that one before. Here is my conclusion. The bees do not know what they need because they are not living in a natural hive. That's why we get things that are so messed up sometimes.

I would agree with that. I would also suggest that in time, if given, bees would reclaim some of their instincts if we give more choices back. Would it happen in a season or three? Probably not. But again I have no real experience. As Barry pointed out, for now at least I am only the bee philosopher

Originally Posted by Solomon Parker

It is in fact not the case. I did some tests with foundationless this year and last. I did not get a single frame of any more than about 60% worker comb, which was at or above 4.9mm, possibly averaging about 5.1mm. In this area at least, if you want small cell, you have to do it with foundation, plastic or otherwise. This is why I use PF-120s and wax specifically for worker comb, and foundationless specifically for drone comb. It gives the bees what they need, and more importantly, it gives me what I want. That's what beekeeping is all about.

I think your latter sentences are more correct for what you personally want from bee keeping (not sure if that is what bee keeping should be about). For me my goals are different. But I am an idealist wanna be hobby bee keeper, not planning to break even on bees so I have that luxury.

I believe it gives the bees what they need to do your bidding. Perhaps in actuallity it does not give them what they need to become better bees. Perhaps the preponderance of drone comb is the bees trying desparately to flood gene pool with variation. Or just that we have robbed them of their proper instinct to build worker cells and they no longer know what to build.

Originally Posted by Solomon Parker

I am speaking from real experience. It is where I choose to speak from, and if not in rare cases, I provide a disclaimer.

Much appreciated

Originally Posted by Solomon Parker

I wish you success in your endeavors. It seems we are getting more than the usual number from New York these days. Any idea why that may be?

Not sure on this one. I was surprised to see so many myself on the forums (I know there are actually a lot of bee keepers in NY already).

Please know that I mean well and appreciate the banter. You have done a good thing with your approach to treatment free and I have enjoyed reading your blog/website over the past few weeks.

Re: My Wooden PF-120s

Originally Posted by sfisher

do you think I will be ok with the pfs in just the bottom two boxes, and then let them finish the rest of the hive with foundationless?

I think you would be fine with even less than that. I sure don't have an abundance of SC in my hives. It's scattered here and there. I think Dennis Murrell figured there only needed to be about 20% SC in a hive, typically in the core brood. The bees know how to key off of the different cell sizes as needed.

Re: My Wooden PF-120s

I find it funny funny Beelosopher that you want to raise bees 'naturally' but would remove them from their natural home and stick them in a box. Don't take that the wrong way, I'm not poking fun or anything but people do fairly amusing things when sticking with their 'ideals'. As far as cell size goes... if you ask the bees if they think they messed up, do you think they would ever say yes?????

Re: My Wooden PF-120s

Originally Posted by JRG13

I find it funny funny Beelosopher that you want to raise bees 'naturally' but would remove them from their natural home and stick them in a box. Don't take that the wrong way, I'm not poking fun or anything but people do fairly amusing things when sticking with their 'ideals'. As far as cell size goes... if you ask the bees if they think they messed up, do you think they would ever say yes?????

Sorry you can't wrap your head around this one JRG13. For that I think you are funny.

It is fairly simply really. Give the bees the most natural approach that I can give them. In this case let them build foundation in the sizes they determine as they would in nature, let them do what bees do. If you feel it necessary to criticize my approach perhaps you have something meaningful to add?

Believe it or not, your "ideals" are wrapped up in your approach to beekeeping as well.