Just curious as to what speakers you own and what equipment are you using.Not a Bose owner but your hatred for this company really shows.Do you work for a competitor or something or have you owned a Bose system that sounded so bad that you stopped listening to music or movies.

Just curious as to what speakers you own and what equipment are you using.Not a Bose owner but your hatred for this company really shows.Do you work for a competitor or something or have you owned a Bose system that sounded so bad that you stopped listening to music or movies.

I work for a company that makes building products, with no connection to audio. :rolleyes:
I wouldn't pick on Bose so much if they priced their systems to compete with the dirt-cheap entry-level HTiB systems from Sony, Yamaha, etc. to which they are directly comparable (though not as good.) Also, claiming that their crappy little table radio can hold a candle to a real stereo irks me.
FWIW I currently have B&W (2-channel) and Def Tech (HT). In the past, I have had very affordable speakers from Infinity and Athena that utterly blow anything by Bose away.

And what if your requirements were unobtrusivity, utter smallness, the simplest of connections? How does anything you own now or in the past meet those requirements?

Certainly the Sony, Onkyo, and Yamaha HTiB's include models that meet all of those requirements for 10% of what a far worse-sounding Bose setup would cost. Even some of the no-name HTiB's available for around $100 are better than Bose. For a bit more $ (but still much less than any Bose system), there are small, unobtrusive HT speaker systems from Athena, Infinity, and Boston (among others) that dramatically outperform any of the ones mentioned above. :cool:

I'd still say my pair of stand mounts with say the NAD L53 would hammer the Bose 3-2-1 on all counts except perhaps utter smallness. And even then, it would be pretty darned close if you take into account the bass module.

Note: As far as connections, a set of speaker wire with nanners would take care of the job.

Certainly the Sony, Onkyo, and Yamaha HTiB's include models that meet all of those requirements for 10% of what a far worse-sounding Bose setup would cost. Even some of the no-name HTiB's available for around $100 are better than Bose. For a bit more $ (but still much less than any Bose system), there are small, unobtrusive HT speaker systems from Athena, Infinity, and Boston (among others) that dramatically outperform any of the ones mentioned above. :cool:

The 321 system goes for $700. So you can really find a HTiB with speakers and a DVD player $70?

Surprised no one has shut this thread down. I happen to own a bose system and therefore am quite aware of its limitations. I must say, Pulliamm's remarks are possibly some of the most biased I have seen around here right up there with hifisoundguy and directtvfreak. You have met the ignorent bose lovers with an equal dose of unfounded bias. Sure, I could preach all day that bose are crap, but there are loads of sound systems in the htib realm that are just as and far more crappy.

First of all Pulliamm, you constantly purport that a Bose system is crappy because it leaves out the 200-280Hz due to something you skimmed over from the intellexual article. If you had actually READ the article you would have seen that there is a rolloff in there around -6dB, something that is common in htib systems and is pretty much guaranteed in a tvs internal speakers. I wont even get into the intellexual article itself and its very own embarrassment to the art of bose bashing. Yes, the bass module rumbles, most HTIB systems do have rumbling bass, it is common in cheap HTIB's. I have owned 7 HTIB systems over the years from brands like panasonic, insignia, onkyo, sony, zenith, logitech and bose and the bose sats rank about 3rd and the sub ranks about 2nd in all those systems, making its overall ranking easily 1st. This isnt saying that the bose system sounds GOOD by any stretch, but it is nowhere near the deplorable quality of some of those systems. I have heard a rear projection tv or two that has better sound than bose, sure, but you very quickly changed your argument from saying that a bose system is worse than ANY TV speakers to saying that there are some tvs with better sound.

Your speaker bias contiunues now, when you owned the beta 20s, even I as a fellow beta 20 owner was scratching my head at your shameless plugs for them, then it moved to the primus 250s, then the B&W 602's now I think its the 705's, which you want to have timbre-matched to a B&W sub because they are the best subs in the world and always sound better when brand matched, (sorry I still chuckle when I see that).
I can see you are picky with sound, and thats fine, we all are around here, but I honestly cannot take anything you say on here seriously.

Thank-you to those who addressed my question about whether they have actually owned Bose or not.

The reason I questioned it is because I come from a car audio background and have been a DIY'er in home audio for a few years. In car audio, it was a common occurance to have 100 people bashing a product. Only to find that 99% never even owned the product.

With that said...I was gifted a Bose Lifestyle 2.1 system about 14 years ago. Since it didn't cost me anything, I have no financial investment to defend. Just everyday use and long term experience with the product. After 14 years, it still works fine. It's used on our main tv for everyday listening because it's much better than just tv speakers. It's fine for movies and casual music. It's small, nearly invisible, and easy to use. It's proven to be a very reliable and durable product. And that is the part that some don't even bother to mention.

The sound? It sounds fine. Are there better sounding systems? YES. But noone has every stopped watching a movie at my house because they just couldn't endure the Bose sound anymore. Down the hall I have a small office/sound room with speakers and equipment I've collected or built over the years. If I want to listen to better music...I just go to that room. But I don't need that equipment to watch tv or a few dvd's.

Overpriced? YES. I wouldn't pay as much as Bose asks for the system. But being a DIY'er, I think there are plenty of things people buy that are overpriced. I'm more like to find a 20 year old speaker and refurbish it intead of buying a new speaker. But that's me. Also factor in that a number of people continue to upgrade their systems anyway just to get something new. So they may go through thousands of dollars anyway and it wasn't because their system sounded bad.

I guess my point is...at what point are we trying to inform people about other products and at what point are we just giving bad advice? I saw someone who had a chance to get a Bose system for about $200-300 and some people were saying how bad of a decision it would be. Some other guy was willing to break his wife's heart instead of accepting Bose as a GIFT...because people were saying how terrible Bose was.

So, the sony, yamaha, and onkyo HTIB's are available in white? Their speakers are just as small? They're advertised and promoted like the Bose are? They have brand recognition? I don't think so.

So now being offered in difference colors is a criteria? please...

And since when should "Brand recognition" factor into quality and performance...the speakers and setups should be judged on their merits and their price, it isn't unheard of for a newcommer to offer a wonderful product for a very reasonable price yet using your logic they shouldn't be considered as much as from a company that has recognition and marketing...

Personally I see the majority of the posts here saying that Bose is targeted towards those who enjoy remaining ignorant of sound and or quality equipment, those who want to buy into a name brand and assume because they pay big money they get the best because the advertisement says so...the people who do no comparative shopping and just buy the one the sales guy says to because they will have the largest comission...

Or simply for those who want small speakers and again don't really care about the quality of their sound....

Why defend a company that markets to this demographic and is hugely successful because of it? this goes against virtually everything an enthusiast community of audiophiles would stand for and hurts sales of good quality brands that do care about their enthusiast base....

Because they're not marketing to you. Yes, for some, even the enthusiast audiophile community, appearance is a criteria hence we have different finishes. So is size. The cost is a relative thing. There's more value in a Bose than there is in many of the products being marketed to the enthusiast audiophile community. I'm sure you can think of some. If it hurts sales, and that remains to be seen, then the quality brands should study Bose more carefully and learn how to market better.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House

For some people it can be. Would you be slightly upset if your car was offered in one color only? After all, it wouldn't affect performance.

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Originally Posted by Mathew J

And since when should "Brand recognition" factor into quality and performance...the speakers and setups should be judged on their merits and their price, it isn't unheard of for a newcommer to offer a wonderful product for a very reasonable price yet using your logic they shouldn't be considered as much as from a company that has recognition and marketing...

It isn't a factor in quality and performance. However, it is a real world factor in people's buying decisions. You buy a Honda over a Hyundai because you feel you are getting a higher level of quality. There are areas where Bose's quality does indeed exceed that of a $250 HTIB from Sony.

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Originally Posted by Mathew J

Personally I see the majority of the posts here saying that Bose is targeted towards those who enjoy remaining ignorant of sound and or quality equipment, those who want to buy into a name brand and assume because they pay big money they get the best because the advertisement says so...the people who do no comparative shopping and just buy the one the sales guy says to because they will have the largest comission...

Or simply for those who want small speakers and again don't really care about the quality of their sound....

It has nothing to do with ignorance. It is for people for whom style, ease of use, etc play as big a part of the buying decision as sound quality. Not everyone is an audiophile. Heck, the vast majority of my generation is growing up on mp3s, garbage car audio systems, and Sony. They definately aren't audiophiles. If they wish to spend money on Bose, so long as they do it for the right reasons (eg they don't think it is the top performing speaker of all time), I don't care.

As far as Bose marketing, why shouldn't they market? They sell lots better that way.

In regards to sound quality, while it isn't the best at the price by any stretch, it is of sufficient quality to be deemed OK for the vast majority of the buying public. Obviously it doesn't cut the mustard for people who post on this forum, but we aren't the majority.

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Originally Posted by Mathew J

Why defend a company that markets to this demographic and is hugely successful because of it? this goes against virtually everything an enthusiast community of audiophiles would stand for and hurts sales of good quality brands that do care about their enthusiast base....

Because they have the right to exist and market their goods. If everyone else was so special and Bose was so horrid, they wouldn't be in business anymore. You can't fool all the people all the time after all. Bose has a demographic: people who want adequate sound, that is easy to install, and stylish. For this they have their lifestyle products, a number of which they even call lifestyle systems...

As long as people are informed on the options, they can get Bose, Sony, KLH, or even the shoddyness that is B&W for all I care.

Because they're not marketing to you. Yes, for some, even the enthusiast audiophile community, appearance is a criteria hence we have different finishes. So is size. The cost is a relative thing. There's more value in a Bose than there is in many of the products being marketed to the enthusiast audiophile community. I'm sure you can think of some. If it hurts sales, and that remains to be seen, then the quality brands should study Bose more carefully and learn how to market better.

I would question your point about Bose and value when compared to other products marketed towards audiophiles, I wouldn't say that those other products offer "better" value, but would say that they are all poor, however with that said even those other products while not offering anything better from a performance standpoint at least on build and design are of a higher caliber than their generic counterparts...with Bose not only is their performance poor but so is their build quality.

And while Aesthetics are important to a degree, there are plenty of other options out there which are about as seamless and mimic the style/size, that while they don't produce great sound, they are at least built to a better degree and priced more appropriately (thinking of the Canton movie series amongst others)

And speaking for myself, if other better brands started following the Bose philosophy of deceptive, misleading, and rather incomplete marketing I doubt I (or others in the community) would respect them as much.

For some people it can be. Would you be slightly upset if your car was offered in one color only? After all, it wouldn't affect performance.

This is dependant on your options...if my choice was a truly wonderful car, at a reasonable price, that offered top performance and it was only available in one color

vs.

a horribly overpriced car, with lackluster performance, and poor build quality but it came in a sleeker package and was offered in more colors...

Then for me the choice would be clear, I would opt for the former...

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It isn't a factor in quality and performance. However, it is a real world factor in people's buying decisions. You buy a Honda over a Hyundai because you feel you are getting a higher level of quality. There are areas where Bose's quality does indeed exceed that of a $250 HTIB from Sony.

I am not denying that marketing and branding isn't a factor, what is intersting in your analogy is that Hyundai is starting to earn top marks for quality and building a very strong base of owners...I have nothing wrong with branding if the product accurately reflects the image of the brand and or is appropriately portrayed by their marketing, but in the case of Bose netither is there...they make outrageous statements about their products to the point of being laughable, and the sad thing is the buying public are too enamored by the marketing to bother looking for something else which is of better quality.

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It has nothing to do with ignorance. It is for people for whom style, ease of use, etc play as big a part of the buying decision as sound quality. Not everyone is an audiophile. Heck, the vast majority of my generation is growing up on mp3s, garbage car audio systems, and Sony. They definately aren't audiophiles. If they wish to spend money on Bose, so long as they do it for the right reasons (eg they don't think it is the top performing speaker of all time), I don't care.

Bose thrives because of product ignorance, they target those who won't bother doing any research, they love the buyer that will just buy into the brand and then proclaim to all of their friends that their system is the best and they should go buy one as well....this is their target demographic

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As far as Bose marketing, why shouldn't they market? They sell lots better that way.

In regards to sound quality, while it isn't the best at the price by any stretch, it is of sufficient quality to be deemed OK for the vast majority of the buying public. Obviously it doesn't cut the mustard for people who post on this forum, but we aren't the majority.

Someone once told me he worked in a fast food chain, each week the manager would put up a large picture of a different burger, there was no special, there was nothing special about the burger...just a different picture of one of their regular menu offerings....and each week the burger that was on the large picture board would out sell every other burger three fold....now knowing this isn't the most scientific study, it still leads me to wonder just how many are led like lemmings towards "big" brands because of their saturation of marketing materials...truly sad but unfortunately the way things currently work. One can only hope with more technically savvy generations comming up that the demographic of educated consumers is on the rise.

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Because they have the right to exist and market their goods. If everyone else was so special and Bose was so horrid, they wouldn't be in business anymore. You can't fool all the people all the time after all. Bose has a demographic: people who want adequate sound, that is easy to install, and stylish. For this they have their lifestyle products, a number of which they even call lifestyle systems...

I won't agree with this at all, there are plenty of "luxury" goods that truly aren't that good that continue to be market leaders just because they built a nice niche for themselves which allow them to continue to sell their substandard products at high prices and through marketing they remain their foothold in the market place...

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As long as people are informed on the options, they can get Bose, Sony, KLH, or even the shoddyness that is B&W for all I care.

This is exactly my point, people aren't informed on their options because either they don't want to be or the other companies unfortunately don't have the resources to go up against a goliath like Bose and market in everything from TV guide, to the local free newspaper...

Using Kimber cables with Bose would be like putting Pirelli racing tires on a Yugo. :D
(It wouldn't work anyway, since Bose products are intentionally incompatible with standard connections.)

His assertion would be that according to you , it would sound better.
Not that it would be worth it...

You are the KING of answering the wrong question.

I accused you some time ago of being a Kimber cable rep or something, now I just think you are a babbling idiot. If anyone can tell me how I can Kill-Filter this guy, please let mt know. I find nothing he says useful and mostly degrading.

He who dies with the most toys wins.Just make sure your toys are over 18.

This is dependant on your options...if my choice was a truly wonderful car, at a reasonable price, that offered top performance and it was only available in one color
vs.
a horribly overpriced car, with lackluster performance, and poor build quality but it came in a sleeker package and was offered in more colors...
Then for me the choice would be clear, I would opt for the former...

Nonetheless, you questioned color being part of the decision. For you who is concerned with performance, it obviously isn't. For others, it might well be. I've seen at least a few posts looking for "Piano Black Speakers For $1000" etc.

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Originally Posted by Mathew J

I won't agree with this at all, there are plenty of "luxury" goods that truly aren't that good that continue to be market leaders just because they built a nice niche for themselves which allow them to continue to sell their substandard products at high prices and through marketing they remain their foothold in the market place...

Humor me and give me some examples that are as blatant as Bose is claimed to be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mathew J

This is exactly my point, people aren't informed on their options because either they don't want to be or the other companies unfortunately don't have the resources to go up against a goliath like Bose and market in everything from TV guide, to the local free newspaper...

Bose is hardly a Goliath compared to the likes of Harman International, B&W, Klipsch Group, etc. Yet Bose still hasn't been driven from the market.

As far as people being too lazy to do their own research, who's fault is that? I see no reason to blame Bose for people's laziness. Besides, regardless of how lazy a person is, they wouldn't buy a $3000 sound system if they thought it sounded horrible.

Bose thrives because of product ignorance, they target those who won't bother doing any research, they love the buyer that will just buy into the brand and then proclaim to all of their friends that their system is the best and they should go buy one as well....this is their target demographic

No, that's not their target demographic. It's for people who want to buy a discrete, easy to hook up, system that improves upon their TV's and they're done. They move on to something else. If they recommend their selection to others it's no different than people recommending their Fluances, Rocket Tykes, or just about everybody here. People who buy Bose are hardly the only people who demonstrate product or technical ignorance. You've got serious audiophiles who argue about outlets, the type of solder, a foot of speaker wire, Shakti Stones, mPingo dots, CD break-in discs, etc. The vast majority simply buy it and move on and think nothing more of it. The majority don't frequent any forums. It's as irrelevent to them as the sheets the wife just bought. So tell me, did you get your shirts handmade or your shoes custom fitted? Do you buy your suits off the rack or do you go to a custom clothier?

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One can only hope with more technically savvy generations comming up that the demographic of educated consumers is on the rise.

Hehehe...I see no signs of that.

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Using Kimber cables with Bose would be like putting Pirelli racing tires on a Yugo.

Kimber can't even make a 75 ohm video cable. Come on now!

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House

Nonetheless, you questioned color being part of the decision. For you who is concerned with performance, it obviously isn't. For others, it might well be. I've seen at least a few posts looking for "Piano Black Speakers For $1000" etc.

Stefano, this one point I will concede as I agree there are those who put aesthetics above all else, and for those then they should buy whatever they want based on what they feel will look the best, but being an enthusiast community comprised of audiophiles I would question that outside of those specific requests why anyone would champion or in any remote way defend Bose, as they certainly don't care one iota about people like "us", it is reflected in their products, their pricing, their marketing....etc.

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Humor me and give me some examples that are as blatant as Bose is claimed to be.

Now you have stepped into my turf as I spend a good deal of time in this arena...two wonderful examples of luxury products that market their items as "the best", retain a strong if not leading position in the market because of public perception based on heavy marketing and a lack of knowledge of other brands, and grossly overprice and or price fix the maket with regards to their products are Rolex watches and Montblanc Pens....

Rolex is notorious for saturating the market with laughable advertisements claiming their watches take a year to make, they are hand finished, and that they are simply the best one can buy....yet the company has a yearly production of upwards of a million pieces, they are virtually all made by machine, and are arguably pretty poorly finished when compared to brands that cost half as much (specifically Omega, Breitling and a few others), and don't even rank when compared to similarly priced products such as JLC, IWC, Ulysee Nardin and so on and so fourth. Luckily public perception of other competitive brands is on the rise and thus competition is mounting, but the fact is the company still holds a very strong position in the marketplace based mainly on past performance, heavy marketing, a strangle hold on their dealers and discount practices, and a customer base that doesn't want to or care to learn about alternatives but instead buy because of the name brand....and to show I am not biased I have owned three and currently own one, all of them were let downs in terms of finish work and or company support for the price paid, and the only reason I am saddled with this final one is because I don't want to loose my shirt in a sale, kept thinking that based on public opinion they cannot be that bad but alas I was let down...

Montblanc pens are also advertised as being the best one can buy but are consistantly shamed by Pelikan, Aurora, Omas, Namiki, Parker, and even Cross...their "precious resin" is fragile, they don't write well at all, and their service when compared to other brands is quite pricy...again another company that rested on its laurels for a long time because they were a dominant player in the game and only as of recently has started to make moderate improvements due to mounting competition and growning customer awareness, though they still hold a strong part of the market based on buyers ignorant of other options....I have owned and sold upwards of ten of these, still own two which I must as they were gifts from the wife but each one was a letdown....

Electrolux is another, yet they appear to be on the decline...

Maytag....

Intel...especially when compared to AMD

And don't even get me started on the diamond market...that would take a long long time.

and the list goes on...

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Bose is hardly a Goliath compared to the likes of Harman International, B&W, Klipsch Group, etc. Yet Bose still hasn't been driven from the market.

And the same can be said about Rolex, they pale in comparison to the size of other conglomerates such as Richemont, LVMH, and the Swatch Co, two of their product lines are absolute dogs with the Cellini and the Tudor range, yet they still saturate enough of the market with their bread and butter ads to remain on the top of the heap in the public awareness sector.....personally I await the day when the bigger groups with better products get their acts together and really make a change....it isn't that I would want Bose out of business but rather trying to make something that is good instead of just shoveling the same old junk at high prices.

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As far as people being too lazy to do their own research, who's fault is that? I see no reason to blame Bose for people's laziness. Besides, regardless of how lazy a person is, they wouldn't buy a $3000 sound system if they thought it sounded horrible.

I would agree but one cannot blame those not savvy with technology as many didn't grow up with it and thus cannot utilize it for research purposes as we can...I partly blame the consumers, the companies for not being aggressive enough, and also Bose for misleading people though "spirited" advertising and then not delivering on their claims to quality and or performance....and having seen people spend far more than that on Land Rovers which are garbage and or Mercedes that are constantly in the shop I would find it easy to believe that someone would spend upwards of 3k on something that sounded like junk simply because of the name on the case.

No, that's not their target demographic. It's for people who want to buy a discrete, easy to hook up, system that improves upon their TV's and they're done. They move on to something else. If they recommend their selection to others it's no different than people recommending their Fluances, Rocket Tykes, or just about everybody here. People who buy Bose are hardly the only people who demonstrate product or technical ignorance. You've got serious audiophiles who argue about outlets, the type of solder, a foot of speaker wire, Shakti Stones, mPingo dots, CD break-in discs, etc. The vast majority simply buy it and move on and think nothing more of it. The majority don't frequent any forums. It's as irrelevent to them as the sheets the wife just bought. So tell me, did you get your shirts handmade or your shoes custom fitted? Do you buy your suits off the rack or do you go to a custom clothier?

I view it as a huge difference, in one case you are recommending something that isn't that good and is overpriced vs something that was most likely researched, is fairly priced, and provides great performance....

As far as the clothes comment, well that to me would be situational, if I had to impress you can bet it would be bespoke suits and custom shirts, but since I am but a simple man I try for the best deal off the rack stuff I can get...

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Hehehe...I see no signs of that.

You should visit some other boards then, especially the tech boards...plenty of angst against Bose and other mass market heavily branded and marketed products which fail to deliver on their claims....it is stunning and wonderful at the same time.