Wishful thinking is an occupational hazard for those who assess the health of the European Union. Those who want to see the EU fail underestimate its powers of resilience and recovery. Those who want to see it prosper underestimate its capacity for self-inflicted harm.

On the eve of last week’s European Council its president, Donald Tusk, claimed to have seen “a surge of pro-European sentiment in recent weeks, according to the polls.” (Other interpretations of the Dutch and French elections are available. Indeed, other polls are available.)

Tusk said he has never had such a strong belief that things are going in a better direction. He also claimed that the EU has maintained political unity in the face of multiple threats and challenges. He over-gilds the lily. There is a veneer of unity, but beneath the surface there are plenty of cracks. That none of the fault lines is as glaring as the chasm opening up between the United Kingdom and the EU27 is hardly a reassuring comparison.

Last week’s EU summit did not, for instance, resolve the disagreement that has festered for months over accommodating migrants. Germany and the European Commission insist that all countries must share the burden. In practice, Central European states have ducked the targets — helped, it should be acknowledged, by migrants’ preference for going to Western Europe.

At the beginning of the year, there were rumblings of dissent among ministers from the older and richer member countries. If the Central European states refused to receive migrants, then there should be consequences, such as being denied a share of EU funds that are distributed as part of the “Cohesion Policy” — i.e., the money intended to help Europe’s poorer countries and regions catch up economically with their richer neighbors.

European Council President Donald Tusk during a press briefing in Brussels, June 22 2017 | Pool photo by Emmanuel Dunand via EPA

This notion of “conditionality” has since taken root in different parts of the EU’s institutional machinery, for a number of different reasons, but championed at every turn by Germany.

Four weeks ago, when Günther Oettinger, the European commissioner for the budget, presented the Commission’s proposed EU budget for 2017, I asked for his views on conditionality. To the distress of the Commission spin-doctors, Oettinger gave a preview of a so-called reflection paper on the EU’s finance and budget, which is to be published Wednesday.

While pointing out that conditionality was not part of the 2018 budget, he acknowledged that it was a possibility for the longer term.

He cited two examples of where conditionality might be warranted. Firstly, where a member country was supposed to be pursuing a program of economic reform, a condition might be set to ensure that EU money was used to meet those objectives. Secondly, the receipt of Cohesion Funds might be made conditional on complying with the EU’s norms for democracy and the rule of law. He didn’t mention Poland and Hungary by name, but the Commission is in dispute with both countries in this area.

The commissioner gave the impression that he could see merit in increasing conditionality, but it’s not clear how strong a push his reflection paper will give.

Poison in the system?

Oettinger, not for the first time, seems to be more in step with his Christian Democrat colleagues in Germany than with his boss at the Commission. In May, the German government adopted a position paper on the EU’s future financing that called for greater conditionality. But Jean-Claude Juncker, the Commission president, speaking at a conference in Berlin on the same day that Oettinger unveiled his budget proposal, described such conditionality as “poison.”

“I believe it won’t be helpful to divide the European Union,” Juncker said. “That would be poison for the Continent.”

Too late: the poison is already seeping into the body politic.

The idea has taken hold in the capitals of Western Europe that those countries that joined the EU in 2004 or later are not true believers in the European project — they’re just out for what they can get. Witness Emmanuel Macron, France’s new president, complaining that Central and Eastern European countries use the EU as “a supermarket.” Witness Guy Verhofstadt, leader of the liberals in the European Parliament, railing against Viktor Orbán: “You want to keep the EU funds, but you don’t want our values.”

It’s a short step from Verhofstadt’s righteous indignation to a threat to cut off EU funds and there is indeed a superficial attractiveness to doing just that. Although the EU’s treaties provide specific sanctions that could be used to bring Poland and Hungary to heel over democracy and the rule of law, those sanctions are considered excessive, whereas budget conditionality is the kind of solution that appeals to bureaucrats — it might be effective, while appearing less political and more procedural.

In practice, though, budget conditionality would prove just as difficult to enforce as the EU’s rules on excessive deficits. They too were supposed to be procedural and not political — at least until France and Germany ran deficits in excess of 3 percent of GDP and yet escaped punishment.

One of the risks inherent in making a weapon of the budget — using it to enforce policy on macroeconomic reform or the rule of law — is that the EU would reinforce the illusion that the point of membership is to extract direct and immediate financial return. But the benefits that flow from membership cannot be reduced to a simple netting off of contributions to the EU budget against amounts of money received (as some in the U.K. are now realizing).

In practice, it may well be Germany that has most benefited from economic improvements in Poland and the Czech Republic.

In theory, money spent in one part of the EU to improve infrastructure or stimulate a market can have benefits elsewhere. In practice, it may well be Germany that has most benefited from economic improvements in Poland and the Czech Republic.

Hit hard, face backlash

The politics don’t stack up either. Imagine if the EU did turn off the tap and stopped EU money flowing to Poland or Hungary. It would feed a sense of injustice and encourage Euroskepticism. Any government leader with an ounce of demagoguery (and Viktor Orbán is carrying weight) would soon be explaining to voters that they were being punished for not taking in migrants, while Austria (almost as unwelcoming) was escaping punishment.

The older member countries would be accused of denying the newer members the benefits of EU membership that they had previously enjoyed (and in the case of French farmers, continue to enjoy).

Perhaps, if the EU budget was a model of rationality and transparency, these counter-arguments could be refuted. A case might be made that conditionality for economic reform would improve the return on EU funds. But that is not where the EU starts from. The EU budget is a multiannual, multi-heading, multi-rebate mess, distorted by years of trade-offs and catering to special interests. That’s not a sound foundation on which to defend conditionality.

Instead, the likely upshot is that the argument over conditionality will widen the gap that is opening up between Eastern and Western Europe, between newer members and old, between eurozone and non-eurozone. The discussions that are now being set in train by the European Commission about the future financing of the EU risk becoming a proxy war for competing visions of Europe after Brexit. The early signs from Emmanuel Macron are that he wants to advance the development of the eurozone, with its own finance minister and its own budget.

Germany’s enthusiasm for conditionality stems from an earlier obsession with enforcing economic reform, now reinforced by a desire to make the migration crisis the main priority of the EU budget. The result is tunnel vision. Germany has lost sight of the bigger picture, which is that the EU post Brexit is in danger, not of falling apart, but of coming loose at the seams.

Related stories on these topics:

Observer

EU is heading to its decomposition thanks to Merkel. This decison about budget punishments will just give new speed and force to this decomposition.

Posted on 6/28/17 | 7:32 AM CET

tony

interesting article.

it seems entirely wrong that Germany can break the rules and yet other countries are expected to pick up the pieces by accommodating her house guests.

however, that particular crisis happened in 2015.

there has been a huge number of migrants arriving in 2016 and 2017.

are they all being accommodated legally in those countries that want them or are they part of a new tranche that will be added to those who arrived in 2015 and are as yet unallocated?

we see Germany and france regularly breaking the rules and Italy doing it only yesterday in using taxpayers money to bail out the banks.

is there one rule for the big boys and another for the East Europeans who see themselves as upholding western culture?

Posted on 6/28/17 | 8:32 AM CET

Alexandre

Regrettably, this drive by Germany (lets not fool ourselves Mr Oettinger’s ideas are his own) to make everyone pay for its failed politics can only lead to the breakup of the EU. Is that what they intend? If so they are on the right path.

Beside, the money transfers to the poorer regions are supposed to balance the brain drain and unfair competition from the richer countries.

The Structural Funds do not allow for investments which are really needed, but rather those imagined as needed by Brussels. As use of SF leads to the significant debt increase, whereas the profits generated by the investments are dubious – the only real gains are going to German companies selling stuff and services to CEE countries – cutting them off may actually be beneficial.

Posted on 6/28/17 | 8:49 AM CET

Karl Buck

The article and comments so far neglect one important aspect which has nothing to do with the issue of refugees or the all-to-easy anti-Germany argument: I am certainly not the only pro-EU citizen who gets angry that our money is being misused to support authoritarian regimes willingly violating or testing the rule of law, separation of powers, democratic and humanitarian values. If this continues, the EU risks not so much to “become loose at its seams” (wow, what a threat!), but to loose the support of people willing to engage in and pay for promotion , not destruction of such values.
Far from me to punish the Polish or Hungarian people, but they should get the chance to become aware of the risks if they let their politicians pursue their way. So, yes there can and should be made political warnings on the financial consequences – and if formal and final decisions may be difficult in the short run, any bureaucracy has the means to slow down etc .payment of money.

Posted on 6/28/17 | 9:41 AM CET

Rafael

To start with, Tusk has mastered his skill of expressing wishful thinking, philosophical ideas, visionary words and wise speeches (with nothing behind it) while being in Brussels over the last years.
One may argue this are the traits of a visionary leader and a Brussels incumbent but actually my little boy is also very good in expressing wishful thinking and imagining a lot of different things disconnected from reality.

The sad truth however is, that Brussels and the EU have a long track record of complete fails in every possible field and major challenge area in Europe.
Starting from youth unemployment, managing the Greece fiasco, the migration crisis, mastering the problem of EU wide trade imbalances and competitiveness losses, large-scale European economic frauds and crimes, EU-wide crimes related to human trafficking and money laundering, mastering the astronomically high admin and bureaucratic expenses due to inefficiencies and high non-value add activities, etc…
The EU is managed by an army of lobbyists (actually more than 10,000 lobbyists), Goldman Sachs, the Rothschilds, the IMF and some other groups and Tusk and his likes are just puppets dancing to the tune.
Give that job to a monkey and he will do just fine, believe me.

I am growing more tired every day to hear those blunted speeches by various EU officials or new leaders such as Macron who just got out of his diapers and with a serious older women affection issue.
Making such “wise” remarks such as “Central and Eastern European countries use the EU as “a supermarket.”” clearly indicates that this clown has absolutely no idea about his country’s (and Western Europe’s) massive and aggressive expansion politics and economic interests in Eastern Europe. It was mostly German and French supermarkets which have spread like mushrooms after rain in Poland and other Eastern European countries. The same also applies in various other industries, where Western companies and investors have almost completely taken over the local markets and economies and also destroyed most local Players and competition.

Eastern Europe also does not need lecturing from countries like Germany and France – countries with a bloody track record and history of imperialism, authoritarian regimes, ethnic cleansing, genocide, starting wars and oppressing others – on principles of democracy and moral issues. Give me a break. It’s as if a pimp started lecturing on women’s rights.
Coming back then to the issue of punishing other EU countries for breaking rules, treaties and principles. Good idea. I completely support that.
Why don’t we start then with Germany and France?! There are countless reasons to penalize these countries for their “bad” behavior.

Posted on 6/28/17 | 10:17 AM CET

Rafael

@Karl Buck
“gets angry that our money is being misused to support authoritarian regimes willingly violating or testing the rule of law, separation of powers, democratic and humanitarian values.”

I was not sure first whether I should laugh about your statement and ignore it or give you a half-sophisticated reply. You have every right to get angry about anything you like. But before you get angry, try at least to understand some underlying facts and backgrounds.
Democracy, freedom and human rights are perfectly fine in Poland and not in any way endangered as you may think or feel.
As someone living in Germany for 30 years but very frequently in Poland, I am much more concerned about the situation in Germany.

Germany is only a democratic country in theory but not in practice.
Just have a look at the media landscape and the political situation here. No such thing as media freedom. Media are very much in line with the government and controlled by 3 large media groups owning about 90% of all main stream media.
Democracy?! Nice joke. Maybe in your wet dreams.
We have a political situation in Germany with no change since 12 years (and Merkel to most likely win the next term). The 2 major parties are aligned in 80% of all matters and all other parties such as AfD and Die Linke are demonized by the (government-steered) media in every possible way giving them no chance to win. All other parties are just gap-fillers who are happy to be part of any possible constellation and government.

And Merkel?
She has managed to eliminate all potential threats from both inside her own party as well as her junior-partner party SPD (opposition in theory).
We have a perfectly running authoritarian regime disguised as a democratic system but it is much closer to a Putin-style form of government.

Posted on 6/28/17 | 10:50 AM CET

Ronald Grünebaum

To be fair Germany broke the Maastricht rules once when it was implementing deep structural reforms in the labour market and the welfare system. So, exactly what is discussed now.

The success of the German reforms have allowed Germany to make higher contributions to the EU. I cannot imagine a second that Greece would have been bailed out in 2009 and again later if the German economy would be in the doldrums.

Actually, the short moment of lack of discipline by Chancellor Schröder has benefited the EU and the hapless Greeks.

Posted on 6/28/17 | 11:23 AM CET

Ronald Grünebaum

@Alexandre

Anyone with a bit of inside knowledge knows that the EU27 is not working. The decision processes are too slow, not democratic enough and no ambitious enough. Even when majority voting is used, as for the distribution of refugees stuck in Greece and Italy (we are not talking about distributing the refugees that Germany has taken), the implementation fails.

There is no way back to the Europe of competing nation states. So we need a better, workable model. And that model is a core of countries which go for much deeper integration and a periphery that is mainly connected through trade.

When even the smallest Treaty change has become impossible because some tiny country needs to hold a referendum among its uninformed citizens who utter views on basically anything except the subject of the referendum, then a new Treaty is the answer.

I think the Poles and Hungarians will quickly see on which side their toast is buttered.

Posted on 6/28/17 | 11:31 AM CET

Lyonnais

In Poland (as in Hungary), the rule of law and the separation of powers are disrespected by the government, and judicial independence is systematically being undermined.

Poland is not a western democracy any longer, but is being turned into an authoritarian system like Turkey and Russia.

French president Macron was right to compare Mr Kaczynski (Poland) and Mr Orban (Hungary) to Russian president Putin. The three of them are ideological soulmates.

As long as Poland and Hungary are in breach with fundamental EU values, their EU membership should be suspended and billions of annual transfers to them with it.

Authoritarian Poland and Hungary depend on the EU, while the EU could do perfectly well without them. It’s time to show them.

Posted on 6/28/17 | 11:39 AM CET

Alexandre

@Ronald

I didn’t really get what Poland and Hungary have to do with dysfunctional governance model of the EU. How about France suspending the rights of its citizens under permanent state of emergency? How about Italy giving taxpayers money to rescue failed banks? How about Belgium doing abysmally with the Air Quality Directive? How about Austria and Finland failing with the Solvency II Directive? Everyone is happily cherry-picking, yet you single out these two CE neighbours. One can only wonder about the policy agenda hidden here.

If Germany or other countries doesn’t like current EU27 they are free to leave it like the Brits just did.
Of course it is a joke, yet one that shows the real issue – it is not possible to blackmail or bribe everyone into following the few countries that want to have full political and fiscal union. So the ones that want to federate must decide whether they want to do it outside EU or not to do it al all. The sooner this is understood in Brussels, Berlin and Paris, the less damage will be done to European economy and prosperity.

Posted on 6/28/17 | 12:09 PM CET

Rafael

@Lyonnais
you are free to think and state your opinion as you wisk and like but before writing such comments, please get familar with some key facts and principles and really look behind the curtains of not only Poland/Hungary (of which you clearly know nothing about) but also your own country and other Western so-called democracies and challenge what you see.

Most of your comments are utter nonsense and lack any evidence. They are just your opinion.
Speaking of authoritorian, despite what you say, Merkel and the German government are much more authoritorian (especiallly in an European context with regard to other member states) than Poland.
Look also at my point above and maybe you will understand that actually Merkel is more like Putin. And by the way, she (such as Germany as well) is and has always been good friends with him and Russia, just as Schröder (former German chancellor, who is best buddy of Putin and working for mafia-style North Stream/Gazprom)

Also comparing and putting Putin and Kaczynski in line with each other as soulmates is – frankly speaking – not only an insult but also populistic and polemic but worst of all…. proof of your lack of knowledge.
Kaczynski has spend most of his life fighting against Communism and Russian/Soviet influence as well as its post-war socialist legacies in Poland and for him Putin (just as Russia) is probably the archenemy worse than the devil itself.

And also before writing and repeating the same uneducated populistic comments on Poland and the rule of law, first get an idea on what is and has been happening in Poland over the last 2 years before PiS took over.
It’s important to know and understand some background info what was happening in Poland during Tusk / Civic Platform ruling.
Ever heard of the cause-effect concept?

Posted on 6/28/17 | 12:12 PM CET

Teresa

@Lyonnais, Ronald Gruenebaum and others

First of all Germany showed its attitude to the principle of solidarity not opening German labour market for Poles in 2004 as the UK done. They took advantage of seven-year transitional period ( in the circumstances when Germany owe Poland so much in moral and material dimension). Had Germany opened its labour market for Poles earler, we wouldn’t have seen Brexit I suppose.
Secondly, the Nordstream 2 pipeline is typically political pipeline. The excessive greed could be the trace of comnercial cause in this case. And very disturbing backround: the former kgb colonel is an employer for the former Bundeskanzler….
Last but not least, have you forgotten how much did cost reunification of Germany – I mean how much does cost to adjust country ” disshaped” by comunism to market economy : ” Even the financial transfer to the East around 30% to 40% of gross donestic product over 25 years seem modest” writes Marcel Fratzscher ( ” Helmut Kohl Was Right”, The Wall Street Journal, June 28 ).

Posted on 6/28/17 | 12:22 PM CET

Paul

@ Teresa:

You are wrong re. the opening of Germany’s labor market to Eastern Europeans such as Poles.

Germany did in fact open its labor market to Eastern Europeans between 2004 and 2011 – but gradually, step by step. So did most other EU member states, except the UK, Ireland and Sweden, who opened their labor markets completely in 2004.

Still, by 2011, Germany had nearly as many new Polish work immigrants as the UK (0.6 million in German versus 0.8 million in the UK).

While the UK voted to leave the EU mainly because it wanted to stop uncontrolled immigration from Eastern Europe (and particularly Poland), there is no anti-Polish sentiment stemming from recent Polish immigration in Germany today.

Maybe Germany’s step-by-step approach was better in the long run?

Posted on 6/28/17 | 12:50 PM CET

Lyonnais

@ Rafael:

If you are uncomfortable with the comparison of authoritaritan leaders Kaczynski (Poland) and Orban (Hungary) with Russian president Putin, complain to French president Macron:

Lyonnais

@ Teresa:

You are comparing apples and oranges.

Poland is not East Germany.

The Germans can spend as much on developing East Germany as they like (it’s their own country, after all), but we Europeans don’t have to spend similar amounts of money on developing Poland and other foreign countries.

Posted on 6/28/17 | 12:58 PM CET

Greg

if Germany and France will continue to push for permanent distribution of unlimited numbers of illegal immigrants then this will mean that they took the decision to dismantle the EU and will use the immigration as scapegoat.

Denmark and ireland have an optout from the distribution of immigrants, why cannot Poland have the same ?

Posted on 6/28/17 | 1:00 PM CET

Lyonnais

@ Teresa:

“Secondly, the Nordstream 2 pipeline is typically political pipeline. The excessive greed could be the trace of comnercial cause in this case.”

Nordstream 2 makes perfect economic sense: With it, German, Dutch, French (and soon British) customers will avoid having to pay for very high transit fees in Poland (close to 1 bn € per year) and Ukraine (close to 2 bn €/year).

If Poland wanted to have the pipeline on its territory, it should have offered to waive the transit fee. It never did.

Meanwhile, transit underneath the Baltic Sea is for free.

Now, Poland lost the transit fees and its strategical position as a transit country. You wanted everything, and you got nothing. THAT is “greedy”. (And it is stupid.)

Posted on 6/28/17 | 1:29 PM CET

FierEuropeen

This is the best solution for the EU to get free of free loaders and should be implemented asap. Why EU members that don’t respect the EU values or goals should keep receiving free money? Comes to mind, Poland and Hungary with theirs wannabe dictators.

Posted on 6/28/17 | 1:35 PM CET

Rafael

@Lyonnais
nice try…
ok, just to refresh your memory a bit….

– How much damage has been inflicted by Germany on other European countries during WW2 in terms of human and material losses?
– How much money and support did Germany get from the US and other Allies in form of structural funds and various other aids (does Marshall Plan ring a bell to you?) after WW2 to rebuild Germany (a country that has brough death, destruction and chaos to all of Europe)?
– Who is responsible for handing Poland over to Stalin after the war and the complete isolation from the West for close to 50yrs?
– How much money has been dirstributed to various other countries in all of Europe (mostly Southern Europe like Greece, Spain, Portugal, etc.)?
– How much money has Greece received over the course of almost 10yrs. (in addition to the regular payments) only to keep a dead patient alive?

If you can answer all these questions right, your remark about “we Europeans don’t have to spend similar amounts of money on developing Poland and other foreign countries” should be obsolete

Posted on 6/28/17 | 1:48 PM CET

YellowSubmarine

Once conditionality is used as a method of control then it will only spread. Especially as the UK’s contributions, both up front and back office, dry up.

More and more reasons not to make full payments, to various unfavoured nations, will be found and it will lead to increased political pressures on the EU’s political experiment.

You might think conditionality would be seen as too big a risk to even consider but a similar decision was taken with the introduction of the Euro. If it is thought useful for the main players it will be forced on the unfortunate few.

An ideology that cannot possibly help the EU’s long term survival.

Posted on 6/28/17 | 2:40 PM CET

croc

Honestly cant see how conditionality will work …. who will decide which country is to be penalized, how much and for what. Will it be regarding ‘rule of law’ issues; economy or social matters? Who will be the judge? I think the article sums this up quite well. Looking at the current debates in Europe the process would be one sided and political with outcome benefiting mainly Germany and/or France and their political or economical goals. It is clear that these countries only work to their own advantage (which they have the right to ) and are less interested in the good of all members of EU (which can never be achieved anyway given the different priorities of the 27 members). That is why Nordstream 2 is seen as beneficial to Europe ( read Germany) but when a company moves from France to Poland this is not seen as beneficial to Europe ( read France ) but an issue that has to be addressed by Europe – (Macron).

Posted on 6/28/17 | 3:14 PM CET

Sofiyski

Given the current issues that the EU faces (expressed rather well in the article and in the comments), I really think Brexit is a godsend for the Union.

I can’t see any other country that is serious about leaving (unless the situation gets worse) so a smooth Brexit with minimal disruption is surely in everyone’s interest.

How much easier to solve these problems without such a difficult member on board?

Posted on 6/28/17 | 3:30 PM CET

Lyonnais

@ Rafael:

‘If you can answer all these questions right, your remark about “we Europeans don’t have to spend similar amounts of money on developing Poland and other foreign countries’ should be obsolete

Quite to the contrary. Your welfare state mentality is unhealthy.

Poland is a foreign country to us. East Germany and West Germany are part of the same nation.

If the Germans spend insane amounts of money on affording East Germans the same lifestyle as West Germans, that’s their choice.

We Europeans do not owe anything to the Poles, and do not want to pay for your welfare indefinitely. You have already received more than enough from Western Europeans. (In the French electoral campaign, Mr Macron and Mme Le Pen were in agreement on this point.)

Since your government is talking so much about “restoring Poland’s “national sovereignty”, I suggest you do what sovereign countries do: reject foreign transfers and built your own country.

Posted on 6/28/17 | 3:38 PM CET

Johann M. Wolff

@Lyonnais

“Mr Macron is speaking the plain truth here”

You’re talking about the French president elected by 16% of the citizens, without any track record and who has the aim to introduce Eurobonds (aka German taxpayers will guarantee the failed French economic model, like we do currently with the french farmers ?).

Posted on 6/28/17 | 4:05 PM CET

croc

@Lyonnais

Not sure what do you mean by ‘we not want to pay for your welfare indefinitely’ please explain. I am not aware of france or germany paying any of my walfare benefits. Also polish welfare benefits are a fraction of benefits french german people get so saying ‘ Your welfare state mentality is unhealthy ‘ is funny.
Also when you say Europeans who exactly do you have in mind? Are we Poles not Europeans? are we some sort of second class citizens of Europe who should be thankful for every pence that drops from Germany? is this how you see fellow Europeans (less rich)?
Both French leaders that you mention are nothing but populists trying to get votes and they obviously got yours….how did they do it … lets try … french workers will not pay for polish welfare (ha, ha, ha), companies are moving to Poland (poles working in poland!!! – BAD), Poles are taking our jobs! (bad poles again); Poles vote their own government and laws in their own country (bad poles again); Poles do not want immigrants (bad poles again) and so on and so forth

Posted on 6/28/17 | 4:12 PM CET

Johann M. Wolff

@Ronald Grünebaum

What’s your issues with referendums ? You’re preaching against democratic values meanwhile you’re bashing governments consulting on important issues those they represent. Are you really concerned about democracy or anything and everything goes if its red-green ?

Regarding the migrants influx you can blame Merkel (and I voted for her twice, although I’m deeply saddened as she turns my party into a new SPD) with her “no upper limit” and also those on the train stations throwing teddy bears on illegal migrants (illegal since they bypassed 6 safe countries heading straight to Northen Europe where the benefits are the highest).

Africa’s population is growing by 1 mio/week. What do you expect ? How many can we take ? Are your really that naive that you believe they will stay in Romania is redistributed there ?

Posted on 6/28/17 | 4:17 PM CET

Rafael

@Lyonnais
your reference to and quote from Macron is nice but ….honestly, I don’t give a flying f*** what he (Macron) thinks, what he says and what else he does.
He is a child-puppet, installed by his Rothschild friends, with a strong mother complex and a complete lack of historical and cultural knowledge of European history and Eastern Europe.
Before trying to make comparisons, he needs to understand things first. I highlighted already in quite a detailed manner that the comparison is not only nonsense and out of place but also lacking profound factual baseline. This actually applies to most other European leaders / politicans, not just Macron. Anyone making silly comments about Poland and the current government has absolutely no clue what and why it is happening. And most of it (if not all) is very much related to what Tusk and his party have been doing over 8 years of being in power.
Kaczynski is finally starting to clean up some mess in morbid system which has been corrupt, filthy and serving itself for a long time. This is the legacy we were left with after enjoying 50 years of Soviet influence. The entire system is a f***-up and it was never really working well to start with.

If Poland is a foreign country to you, than this is not Poland’s fault but rather yours and that of Europe. After all Poland is one of the largest country in Europe, a direct neigbour of Germany and a country with a strong common history and culture in many areas with other countries.

And of course Western Europe and specifically Germany owes Poland. Not just something but actually quite a lot. It is because of Germany and the Allies that this country was completely destroyed and after the war was handed over to Stalin on a silver plate despite the fact that Poland and the Poles have been fighting against the Germans on almost all major fronts/battlefields in Europe.
The Polish pilot fighter squadrons as an example actually even played a very deciding role in the Battle for Britain and gained legendary status after breaking all combat records and destroying many hundreds German airplanes. Britain was close to collapse and surrender and almost lost the fight against Germany in the skies. Only thanks to the many hundreds Polish fighter pilots which had outstanding fighter capabilities, Britain managed to survive the air-battles.

Posted on 6/28/17 | 4:35 PM CET

Lyonnais

@ Rafael:

Yes, Poland is a foreign country to anybody but the Poles. That’s the very idea of the nation-state.

So is Germany. If the Germans develop the less developed part of their country (East Germany) with tons of monney, that’s their choice. As a French, I don’t want to pay for the development of either East Germany nor Poland.

So start paying for your own welfare (sense large) and stop running around with the begging bowl. We owe nothing to the Poles.

Posted on 6/28/17 | 5:00 PM CET

Johann M. Wolff

@Lyonnais

“As a French, I don’t want to pay for the development of either East Germany nor Poland”

And as a German, why do I have to pay for the french farmers ?
More pressing issues are the french maneuvers: having a failed defense industry selling tanks to third world countries the French gov merged the Nexter Systems with Krauss-Maffei Wegmann, manufacturer of the Leopard 2 on a 50-50% partnership. You did the same with the Airbus just later to absorb another french company so it became majority french owned. And now with the eurobonds…..

Posted on 6/28/17 | 5:17 PM CET

Johann M. Wolff

@Lyonnais

Oh…another one. How did the EUR came to life ? Mitterrand blackmailing Kohl to droop the DM as the price of the German re-unification (after his appeal to Gorbachev to prevent the re-unification fell). Didn’t worked out well for you, right ??

Posted on 6/28/17 | 5:20 PM CET

TAK

Dear Lyonnais
I don’t know where are you from. But I may say that we don’t owe nothing to Germany or France. If you invited millions of people from Africa – it’s yours problem. Logical for you?
BR from Poland, 1000 years in Europe

Posted on 6/28/17 | 5:24 PM CET

L' Europe, toujours ...

@ TAK:

Poles or North Africans – no difference. They both come here for the money, and for the money only. The North Africans speak better French, however …

Posted on 6/28/17 | 5:30 PM CET

Rafael

@Lyonnais
to keep it short, of course France as a former member of the “4 Allies” is partly responsible for the fate of Poland after WW2 and thus speaking for its “isolation”

Regarding the rest, I get your point. You say “As a French I don’t want to pay for the development of either East Germany nor Poland”
Point noted and understood, even West Germans don’t want to pay for rebuilding East Germany and don’t see it as their obligation.

But then France and the French are also cherry-picking. You want the benefits but not the burdens, right?
Where were you when over decades money transfers have been taking place in all of Europe? For Southern Europe, the Bank rescue programs, the millions of refugees from Middle East and Africa etc.
France is having (or at least had for many years) enormous benfits from Eastern Europe.
Why? Think for a second. Eastern Europe is an huge market for French products and cheap production of goods. French companies have a strong presence in Eastern Europe. So start complaining about money. Also in many industries, France is today very dependend on cheap labour from other countries to survive and stay competitive.
France will have a difficult time in the years to come, socially, economically and politically.

Posted on 6/28/17 | 5:32 PM CET

TAK

L’ Europe, toujours …
So keep your French speaking guests in France and don’t try send them to us.

Posted on 6/28/17 | 5:35 PM CET

Realist

@L’ Europe, toujours …
Have fun with the next waves of Africans and Muslims in your country, fearing for your safety

And Poles are actually slowly returning to their home country after realizing that life in many parts of Europe is actually quite s*** and that life back home is much more attractive, safer and better than in a foreign country being discriminated and treated as 2nd class citizen.

Posted on 6/28/17 | 5:40 PM CET

Lyonnais

@ Rafael:

WE granted you, the Poles, free-of charge access to OUR (EU) market, on which you depend completely. At least 2/3 of Polish exports go to the EU.

By comparison, the Polish market is negligeable for us Western Europeans, accounting for no more than maybe 3-4 % of our exports even in the case of your direct neighbour, Germany. For the French, Polish EU membership was a net negative.

We pay for you, and your wage dumping is destroying social cohesion in our society.

If there is further integration among eurozone countries, you will find yourselves in “Europe B” again and will have to pay for access to that more exclusive market of the European core countries. That’s something your not so genious government doesn’t even begin to realise … .

Posted on 6/28/17 | 7:53 PM CET

L' Europe, toujours ...

@ Realist:

“Poles are actually … realizing that life in many parts of Europe is actually quite s*** and that life back home is much more attractive, safer”

Now that you have clean running water and water toilets in more or less all of your homes for the first time in your history, you really believe you’re at the top of the world, don’t you?

That’s so sweet, especially when you consider the fact that Western Europeans have been paying and continue to pay for your civilisational upgrade from European wasteland to 1st world.

Posted on 6/28/17 | 8:04 PM CET

Sofiyski

Great article. Even greater descent into a bunfight in the comments. I guess this is where the EU is headed. Any doubts I had about the Brexit vote evaporated after reading this article. I’m genuinely grateful to all who contributed.

Posted on 6/28/17 | 8:30 PM CET

Teresa

@ Lyonnais
“But for the moment the project ( Nord Stream 2) would do the EU more harm than good” – writes Georg Zachmann in his opinion “Nord Stream 2 can wait”( Breugel Institute). According to this opinion even “increasing needs can be met for at least the next decade using existing pipelines..,”. And be careful with ” free transit underneath Baltic See”. Nord Stream 2 weakens energy safety of the EU. Lack of diversity ( commercial reason) will bring more abusing monopolist position( in commercial dimension too)- You do not understand how it is to be Russia’s hostage( because you and your country haven’t had such a horrible expierience).
I remember how in June 2008 Bob Dudley ( then TNK-BP) left Russia when his visa was not renewed and he had faced” sustained harrasment” from the Russians authorities. As ” The Moscow Times” reported in those days : V. Putin urged Russian tycoons to focus on expanding their business abroad while TNK-BP had focused on domestic operations.But in October 2010 Dudley became CEO of the whole BP and in March 2013 was offered a seat on the board of Rosneft. Russians were very pleased – they have old saying about the battered and humilated but it’s difficult to find good translation -” A man forewarned is forearmed” sounds rather flattering..,.

Posted on 6/28/17 | 9:16 PM CET

Tony

As a Brit I am genuinely astonished by the tone of this thread.

I had thought that we were considered a barrier to the closer integration of Europe. Now we are going you can integrate to your hearts content and carry out the EU project of creating a single nation achieved through political, monetary, fiscal and military union.

That this means the destruction of the sovereign state was a prime reason for our wanting to leave, as our ambitions do not extend to wanting to become part of the German economic area and submerge our identity.

It seems however that very many of you do not share this vision of a united Europe led by Germany who have achieved dominance through the imposition of a single currency tailored to their needs.

We genuinely wish the EU well and hope we can al trade together in the future but we do not share the aims of your leaders.

Posted on 6/28/17 | 9:55 PM CET

Realist

@L’ Europe, toujours
sweet comments. Haha. Yes, finally we have running water. We have been waiting for it for a long time. Thanks to EU funds Poles can enjoy a decent life and leave their caves.

Are you living on Mars or some kind of matrix?
It’s quite obvious you are failing to see and acknowledge the speed of catch up and recovery Poles are bringing on the table.
Of course Poland was some kind of wasteland thanks to Germany and then thanks to the Soviets who did the very best in damaging the rest of the country.
But the – as you call it – civilization upgrade was only necessary because Poland was downgraded in the first place by the betrayal of its honorable allies.

Strangely enough then to see that Poland is now far better off and in many ways more affluent than some Western countries when you compare the rural areas. Just take a ride through the country-side and rural areas of Poland. Then you will see how Poles live today. When comparing that to many rural areas in Italy, France and even Germany (not to speak of such countries as Greece, Portugal and Spain) I am actually quite stunned how poor many Western rural areas are compared to those in Poland.

But it’s ok, keep laughing. Soon your failing society and your “rich” economy (losing competitiveness by every day) will be taken over by the millions of migrants from Africa and Middle East who have far more kids than the traditional French family.
Viva La France,
Au Revoir Grande Nation

Posted on 6/28/17 | 10:06 PM CET

Rafael

@Tony
Dear Tony, thanks for valuable comments.

Let me just tell you that as a Pole I can very much understand your rationales and reasons for leaving. Actually I was the only one among a wide range of friends, relatives and colleagues who was sure that there would be a “LEAVE” vote.

Anyway, the EU is a failed project – at least the way it works today and judging by the visions for the future as dictated by the elites who want an even stronger integration and a political union including removal of all powers on a national level.

This is very much in line with the overall ambitions and goals of a so-called New World Order as envisioned by the various shadow powers in the back. This is no secret anymore, the powerful elites who have all the resources for that, want to make it happen, sooner or later. All signals are indicating this.

And the EU is also not about democracy, freedom or common values anymore. That are just some romantic justifications. It’s all about money, my friend. Nothing more, nothing less.
The EU project and vision was always meant as a way and system to make the elites and rich even richer while the great masses are increasingly struggling with youth unemployment, low wages, higher competition, poverty etc.

Posted on 6/28/17 | 10:31 PM CET

croc

@Tony
as a Pole i am sad that UK is leaving Europe but understand and respect your decision. i came to UK well before 2004 and alwayes felt welcomed in UK and part of it. when we joined EU i was happy but did not expect that this will mean basically being told by the guys with money what to do and what to think only few years after we regained our independence from the soviets. Not only this the EU is expanding its influance to areas we never thought would be even an issue e.g imigration. I personally was thinking Brexit will be a waking up call for EU but instead of stopping and rethinking the EU project they want to accelarate it!!! imagine a car loosing one of its wheel instead of stopping to fix it decides to drive even faster!!! thats what EU seems to becoming – running some direction ( or directionless) for the sake of running

Posted on 6/28/17 | 10:47 PM CET

Rafael

@Lyonnais
not quite right. Access was not granted and needed. Before the EU, trade was also possible and worked. It also still exists today in the case of Switzerland and Norway which are not part of EU but stil trade with the EU. It works also both ways.
The same will be the case when Britain leaves.

And no, the benefits were much larger for Western countries than for Poland or Eastern Europe. Western Europe gained both huge additional markets and vast low cost production possibilities.
Western countries today will not be able to compete anymore without cheap labour and low cost production on which they are highly dependent.

Of course Poland can not be easily compared to such mature (but at the same time highly inefficient and cost-intensive) economies which could develop freely since the 50ies.
But they lack today the flexibility and willingness to change, adapt and rearrange. Western societies have become lazy and comfortable due to high social benefits and long period of affluence. But that is about to change very soon. Reality is there. And Asia is coming strongly.
Either adapt or fall, The French and Germans are not necessarily known for being flexible and adaptable. So are not their fully regulated bureaucratic economies,

Posted on 6/28/17 | 10:54 PM CET

Tony

Rafael

Thank you. I agree with all your comments.

There is a Good book called ‘ road to somewhere’ which has been popular here the ladt few months which seeks to explain the reasons for Brexit.

Basically the ‘ somewheres’ ‘ who are rooted in their community and have a dislike for the elite of the EU and our own govt outvoted the ‘anywheres’ who are rootless and globalist. Very many of the concerns you mention are covered in the book which I think you would enjoy.

The EU has become much too big and much too remote and much too undemocratic as it serves the ambitions of the ‘anywhere’ elite which are not the same as those of the ordinary people

I like the poles and hope they will stay In our country. I have never visited Poland but would like to do so, perhaps in the autumn , as of course it had a great history and civilisation before the germans and russians destroyed it.

Some of those commenting here do not seem to realise that at one time it was a very advanced nation and that it is only the EU who are dragging you into civilisation for the first time.

I expect that the nations of the east will have to endure a lot of bullying in the next few years from the western Europeans. With best wishes to you and your nation

You may have seen the many hurtful comments on this very blog that the UK has stood in the way of integration and they are glad to see us go. As for the tone taken by those leaders and bureaucrats determined to teach us a lesson for daring to leave, it is very spiteful and will be counter productive as it shows them in their true light.

That the EU Believe that the ordinary person is demanding yet more integration is nonsense but the elite will take no interest in the opinions of ordinary people.

I think the dream of a one nation EU exists only in the mind of the bureaucrats but they are the ones with the power and I think you will be coerced into doing what they want including having your society enriched by mrs merkels house guests that she wants to share with other countries

Posted on 6/28/17 | 11:23 PM CET

Rafael

@Tony
I am glad to hear that.

Yes, understanding of the key issues including also the historical context is lacking among most people here. Although having lived most of my life outside of Poland in various countries and continents across the globe (also the UK by the way), I still have strong sentiments about Poland. What I find particularly sad and disturbing, is how little people in Europe really know about this country, its people, culture and its history, especially what it had to go through during the last century in terms of suffering and losses.

What also surprised me however, was the level of arrogance and hostility towards Britain with respect to the entire Brexit debates.
Sad but true.
Take care

Posted on 6/28/17 | 11:45 PM CET

Lyonnais

@ Rafael:

You are very wrong, I’m afraid:

“Access (to the EU’s market) was not granted and needed (to Poland and other Eastern European countries).”

Yes, it was. All these countries were granted tariff-free access to the EU in 1994.

“Before the EU, trade was also possible and worked.”

Yes, but Eastern Europe got a very favourable treatment: Tariff-free access to the EU’s market without a fee.

“It also still exists today in the case of Switzerland and Norway which are not part of EU but stil trade with the EU. It works also both ways.”

No. Switzerland and Norway each pay an entry fee to the EU’s market of more than 1 billion € each. (That money is used exclusively on projects in Eastern Europe.) THAT is the regular treatment of non-member states. Eastern European countries were given a priviliged treatment in 1993 in order to ease their transition from communism to free market economies.

“The same will be the case when Britain leaves.”

No, it won’t. The UK will have to pay into the EU’s coffers just as Norway and Switzerland.

Posted on 6/29/17 | 12:11 AM CET

Rafael

@Lyonnais
I was about to go to sleep when I saw your comment.

So, how exactly do my statements contradict with your statements? Not at all.
I was not writing about the economic conditions of non-EU trade which exist of course.
I was purely stating that trade and economic reality still exists, has existed before and will exist and perfectly work in the future without an EU concept.

Of course the conditions and prerequisites will be different and it will be a trade-off, both ways actually. And all sides will lose and win something but it would work. It always does.
So the EU model is not a must-have for trade and the flow of goods, capital etc.

Conditionality seems like an eminently sensible proposition to me. I don’t think the EU should even dither about this and should just go ahead and impose it.

Posted on 6/29/17 | 7:19 AM CET

Craig Lamont

Isn’t that Blackmail?

Posted on 6/29/17 | 11:32 AM CET

Sofiyski

@euperspectives
“Conditionality seems like an eminently sensible proposition to me.”

I quite agree. The sooner citizens lose their romantic notions about the nature of the EU the better.

Posted on 6/29/17 | 11:47 AM CET

pivo

“In practice, it may well be Germany that has most benefited from economic improvements in Poland and the Czech Republic.”

True not only by using those countries as a lebensraum but also, their cheap labour make German trade quite competitive! All this at the expense of their old partners…
If only that wall could be build again and not used as a cycling path !

Posted on 6/29/17 | 12:07 PM CET

bony

Why beat about the bush? Germany (not western eu) but germany’s inherant nature to punish, for that is what it plainly amounts to, in this case, east european nations baulking at taking in german immigrants, nowhere is it factually rejected the issue relates to immigration into europe per-se. What fundamental difference is there between forced deportation by german trains and enforced acceptance of germany’s immigrants by diktat under the flag of the eu?

Posted on 6/29/17 | 1:55 PM CET

Lyonnais

@ Rafael:

Sure, life will always go on somehow. Just not always in a better way – and I doubt that Poland would be better off in “Europe B”, outside the common market of a smaller “Europe A” of Western European countries.

Also, global power is indeed shifting to Asia, and has been for four decades already. But Poland is hardly better equipped than Germany, France and other first-rate western economies in competing with the likes of China, Japan, South Korea and Taiwan:

– Poland lacks a high-tech industry of its own,
– it underperforms dramatically in terms of research and development,
– and its universities and research institutes are third-rate by international comparison, notably in the all-important STEM (Science, technology, engineering and mathematics) departments. In none of these fields, you are catching up, and the constant brain-drain of Poland’s best and brightest to Western Europe doesn’t help.

Posted on 6/29/17 | 3:37 PM CET

ab

“Brussels’ potential weapon against bad behavior ”
Bad behavior ?!?

No one can champion in “bad behavior” Germany, which is:
– supporting authoritarian regime in Russia abusing human rights, imprisoning and killing opposition members and journalists, waging wars on neighbours and occupying foreign territories which is against EU principles and world community of democratic nations decisions:
“German foreign minister slams US sanctions against Russia”
“Angela Merkel has sharpened Germany’s attack on US plans to toughen American sanctions on Russia.”

– undermining EU and NATO countries as well as Ukraine’s safety by building with Russia Nordstream, Nordstream 2 pipelines and granting control over Opal pipeline to Gazprom against EU regulations (“European Court suspends European Commission and German regulator ruling to expand Gazprom access to Opal pipeline”),

– opening the borders and inviting immigrants from all over the world against EU regulations.

EU is not the only organization which rules Germany is ignoring by the way, so it seems more like a national strategy than some error. As Germany is also undermining NATO capabilities by ignoring obligation to spend at least 2% of GDP on defense which means also cheating on taxpayers from countries that fulfill that obligation.

But of course it is always easier to spot a speck of sawdust in somebody else’s eye than pay attention to the plank in own eye.

Posted on 6/29/17 | 5:39 PM CET

Rafael

@Lyonnais
I have my doubts on that and am willing to argue on that matter. Competition is happening on various levels: skills, flexibility, language capabilities, regulatory issues, average age, wage level. Apart from technical skills, in all other areas Polish students score higher/better and are more attractive for employers

yes, Poland might not have the best universities in Europe but….
Young people in Poland are generelly much more flexible, much more willing to study and work abroad, learn additional skills because it’s a way of life in Poland.

Just to give you a little example. It is no secret anymore that in the IT sector Polish IT specialists today are among the best in Europe and much IT work is being outsourced to Polish IT companies or entire IT departments are shifted here because people are less expensive and also more willing to work long hours. They complain less and are easier to work with due to a pragmatic hands on approach.

Posted on 6/29/17 | 5:40 PM CET

Veritas-Semper

@ Rafael

You have the unparalleled patience in dealing with the biased, the bigoted and the just-plain-hateful who vent their frustrations in the comments section of Politico.

My hat off to you Sir! Well done.

Keep in mind: those with open minds, will get it. And, that is where your efforts are commendable. But, those with small minds and closed minds (I feel sorry for them, really) will never ever, get it. So, don’t get discouraged. Keep pressing on.

Posted on 6/29/17 | 5:44 PM CET

croc

@ Lyonnais

First we have to see if there will be Europe A and B and what this will mean. But if there is Europe A and B as you seem to think it will always work to disadvantage of both Europe A and B unless you are still believe that France and Germany go alone to bright future! that seems quite utopian.
And china and Asia will defo take advantage of this set up .. why Poland is no better prepared that France, Germany these countries will have much more to loose and France in particular as the french economy has already been struggling for years with problems you do not seem to be able to fix.
While Poland is not the best economy in the world (it never pretends to be), it is gaining momentum and there are good indications that is catching up already with the poorer western European countries such as Greece, Italy Spain and Portugal in many of the fields you mention. and more and more Poles do come back to Poland after living in the west – that is my personal experience. I suppose you are so upset with Poland because! you realize that Poland is no longer a mickey mouse country but that actually investment and companies prefer Poland and EEC than e.g France and that Poland and EEC growth begins to affect employment and economy in your own rich country and that must hurt of course .. but is that not we want from EU – European citizens having decent lives and peaceful countries.

Lyonnais

Extended stints abroad both during one’s studies and in one’s professional life have been the norm over here for decades. Poles are only catching up now for obvious reasons.

What the Poles certainly aren’t is “more flexible” than the Western Europeans. I know of many companies who’ ve had trouble finding qualified personnel in Poland because candidates wouldn’t be willing to leave their hometowns or university towns. And we’re not talking about moving abroad, but about moving within Poland, often by as little as 200 kilometers.

Finally, Poles won’t stop calling themselves “hard workers”. Very often, that is simply shorthand for “unskilled laborers” (who characteristically have to work longer hours than skilled laborers). Training etc. is still better in countries like Germany and France than in Poland. That’s why Germans and French can work less hours than Poles (and earn way more money): Germans and French work more efficiently than Poles, because their educational systems are better and their economies work more efficiently.

If it was different, Poles would earn more than Germans and French, but that’s obviously not the case yet.

Posted on 6/29/17 | 9:32 PM CET

Lyonnais

@ croc:

To be honest, the only thing that “upsets” me about Poland is how “un-western” (and often “anti-western”) it still is today, 25+ years after the fall of the Berlin Wall.

Other Eastern European countries have westernised much more quickly than Poland (Estonia, Czech Repubic, Slovakia, Slovenia). But maybe that is because these countries have been shaped by Swedish, German and Austrian culture for many centuries, while Poland has essentially always been a quintessentially eastern nation.

Posted on 6/29/17 | 9:39 PM CET

croc

@Lyonnais

If the only thing that upset you about poland is how unwestern it is then i can go to bed at peace … it is a vast topic ranging from why do you think being western is value in itself to have really these western values brought any benefits to many third world countries in the world historically and in the recent years and at what cost? Also i am also intrested what does it mean being western? plese explain to me? in some way looking at what is happening in France (attacks, violent protests, strikes, constant security issues) one could say poland is more civilised and western (but the it depends on the definition) Besides do you also blame the Chinese for not being western and too chinese?

As for polish hard workers. I suppose every country thinks their workers are the best. Personally, i do not think polish workers are better workers than French or Czech or Any other nation. But i also know that employers in the UK and Ireland like polish workers and also other EEC workers. In recent economy crash 2007-2012 i saw all my polish friends continue to work while a good number of my western friends were on unemployment benefits! I also remember large swiss french food company comming to my town in poland in 1993-4 to take over large food processing plant and bringing french manegers to take control. They did not last long, just under a year and were quickly replaced by polish managers who did the same job and for half of the cost. As for education i am so happy being educated in poland … my maths skill are superior to 99% of my western work mates

Posted on 6/29/17 | 11:38 PM CET

ab

@Lyonnais
Conversely to what you claim Poland has been shaped to much extent by Western “culture” in 20th century:
– 6 million Polish citizens were murdered
– soap was produced from human fat
– ropes were produced from human hair
– gold was produced from golden teeth of murdered people
– many cities, villages, factories were raised to the ground
– large percentage of objects of art were stolen or destroyed on purpose – check “World War II looting of Poland” entry in Wikipedia.

And I agree with you that Poland has never been ready to adopt such Western “culture” that Germans brought – with which France collaborated by the way.
Interestingly Germany has never paid any war reparations to Poland and EU subsidies are just a very small percentage of due war reparations.
Also Germans still enjoy many objects of art stolen from Polish museums, private collections, houses, etc. and don’t intend to return them (well on rare occasions it happens when a grandchild of a thieve doesn’t feel good with that).
Is it typical for Western “cultures” ? Because for Polish people such behavior is very strange.

Posted on 6/30/17 | 9:26 AM CET

Lyonnais

@ ab:

I guess you are way off-topic here.

What you forget to mention is that Poland was awarded 1/4 of Germany’s national territory with countless cultural artefacts after WWII. It also drove out the native German population (at least 7-8 million people) and setteled those territories with Poles.

No other country was awarded such a bounty.

So give it a rest, your constant self-pitying and complaining is nauseating. The West owes Poland nothing.

Posted on 6/30/17 | 9:51 AM CET

Rafael

@Lyonais
@croc
@ab

seems some more discussions are arising 🙂
I am sure I can add a view points on the topic of what being “Western” means.
No need to look far. Just take Great Britain, France, Germany, the Netherlands and Spain as examples….
The history of all these countries / Western civilizations is marked by these “positive” traits:
– Imperialistic wars and annexation
– Colonies in Africa, South America and Asia where the local cultures/people have been slaughtered, humiliated, enslaved or proselytised or made extinct
– Genocide
– Wars and oppression
– Occupations
– Ruthless exploitation of resources
etc. etc.

That being said, I am very convinced that being “Eastern” is actually something to be proud of, particularly when the looking also at the recent track record of additional wars and millions of casualties led by (or sponsored by) Western countries in Middle East and Noth Africa.

Posted on 6/30/17 | 10:37 AM CET

Rafael

@Lyonnais

“I’m not sure you know Western Europe at all.”

Haha, nice try. My dear Lyonais, without being arrogant. I am sure I know Western countries and civilization much better than you my friend. Here my personal track record:
– Have been living in Germany for 30 years (until today)
– Lived in Poland for 7 years and travel there many times a year
– Lived 2 years in the US
– Lived 2 years in UK

Apart from that I have worked on various international consulting projects in different industries in many Western countries, particularly Benelux, Scandinavia but also Spain and Italy. So I know quite well the reality there both in terms of work culture, attitude, flexibility and so on

Try to beat that my dear….

Posted on 6/30/17 | 10:52 AM CET

ab

@Lyonnais
You posts are more and more way off the mark !

“What you forget to mention is that Poland was awarded 1/4 of Germany’s national territory”
It has nothing to do with unpaid German war reparations as that 1/4 of German territory was part of German war reparations but to Soviet Union and not to Poland – check it out.
Then Stalin decided to grant it to Poland as USSR grabbed 50% of Polish territory in the East at the same time, so we can roughly assume issue of war reparations between Poland and USSR settled.

“with countless cultural artefacts after WWII.”
As just after the war that 1/4 of German territory was administrated by USSR as I pointed above, most of cultural artefacts as well as equipment from factories was transported to USSR as part of German war reparations to USSR.
Many of those cultural artefacts you can see in Hermitage Museum in Petersburg, Russia nowadays.

“It also drove out the native German population (at least 7-8 million people) and settled those territories with Poles”
Nope. It was allies decisions – USSR, USA, UK in Yalta, but based in fact on USSR inspiration. Poland had no say at all about it.
USSR grabbed 50% of Polish territory in the East and was happy to expel Poles from there and move them to the West.

“No other country was awarded such a bounty.”
In total Poland lost much more territory than gained during WWII.
Strange “award”.

“The West owes Poland nothing.”
In general I agree because basically not the whole West but Germany owes Poland unpaid war reparations for massive destruction of population and country.

Posted on 6/30/17 | 11:15 AM CET

croc

@Lyonnais

“What you forget to mention is that Poland was awarded 1/4 of Germany’s national territory with countless cultural artefacts after WWII. It also drove out the native German population (at least 7-8 million people) and setteled those territories with Poles.
No other country was awarded such a bounty.”
You really make it sound like we should be grateful to Germans for invading our country in 1939 and bringing on all the goodies. Are French equally grateful for German invasion? Post war our boarders were decided by others and yes parts of germany given to us while much bigger parts of eastern Poland taken from us and given to Soviet union (may say they were awarded best bounty), and millions of poles told to move west. But then i do understand, you only have ‘western’ history in schools.

Posted on 6/30/17 | 11:27 AM CET

Rafael

@ab
@Veritas-Semper

thanks for both your kind words and also your comments/additions.

Yes, honestly, sometime I keep wondering about myself why I keep on writing and replying here to some posts. Anyway, have a nice weekend.

Posted on 6/30/17 | 4:49 PM CET

Igor Bull

May I respectfully suggest that Politico and all other media stop referring to ‘Brussels’. It is about time people understand that decisions are made by institutions and that those institutions are closely connected to Member States, be it via the MEPs, the Council or even Commissioners (Moscovici strikes me as having the FR interests at heart). Stop blaming Brussels and Euro skepticism will decrease.

L’Europe toujours
Just to let you know…We had clean running water and water toilets in more or less all of our homes even during communism. It seems that you consider yourself as the better sort of human beings. It reminds me something about theories which were spread in nazi Germany. And one thing more, if you continue to rely on such politicians like Macron, you’ll be begging my primitive folks to let you settle down in Poland in less than two decades.