Virus-X Debate Round 1

His First Post

[Editor's note: this was sent in reply to the following excerpt
from an E-mail sent Thu, 20 Nov 2003 23:37:50 -0500, which was in
turn sent as a response to his message saying "Ok,
while I've got a few minutes, let's hear your take on the display of
firepower in "The Die is Cast", and "The Empire Strikes
Back" (since he apparently thought it was unreasonable of
me to simply ask that he read my website):

1) TDiC demonstrates sufficient Trek
firepower to cause less destruction at surface level than a large
asteroid strike, with non-persistent fireballs, no visible ejecta
whatsoever, and in fact, less surface luminosity than is generated
from a large forest fire. In fact, the ONLY evidence that the ships
in orbit were capable of anything more than surface-level destruction
was one of several possible interpretations of a piece of dialogue,
which is to say no conclusive evidence at all. Contrast this to their
various attempts to destroy asteroids in "Rise" and
"Pegasus" and "Cost of Living", which are
consistent with their observed firepower in TDiC but not with the
unreasonable extrapolations derived from optimistic interpretations
of dialogue that are common to wild-eyed Trekkie fanatics.

2)
The common use of TESB as a maximum benchmark (rather than a
ridiculously conservative lower limit) for Imperial firepower is
actually a joke in light of the fact that Slave-1 was effortlessly
pulverizing multi-kilometre wide asteroids in AOTC. It's precisely
analogous to saying that you saw an M1 Abrams' 120mm smoothbore punch
through drywall, so you're going to take that as a firepower limit
for a 120mm smoothbore even though a comparatively miniscule handgun
can do the same thing, and the published specs for a 120mm smoothbore
are much higher. Having said that, the calculations show that it
takes around a third of a megaton to vape one of those asteroids as
shown, although ISD guns are actually much more powerful than that.

His response (and first post of the debate) follows:

Received Wed, 26 Nov 2003 13:30:01 GMT

1) TDiC demonstrates sufficient Trek
firepower to cause less destruction at surface level than a large
asteroid strike, with non-persistent fireballs, no visible ejecta
whatsoever, and in fact, less surface luminosity than is generated
from a large forest fire. In fact, the ONLY evidence that the ships
in orbit were capable of anything more than surface-level destruction
was one of several possible interpretations of a piece of dialogue,
which is to say no conclusive evidence at all. Contrast this to their
various attempts to destroy asteroids in "Rise" and
"Pegasus" and "Cost of Living", which are
consistent with their observed firepower in TDiC but not with the
unreasonable extrapolations derived from optimistic interpretations
of dialogue that are common to wild-eyed Trekkie fanatics.

You're attempting to use special effects as a
barometer, when, if you're as intelligent as you say you are, you'd
know that that isn't always possible. Generally, however, you are
more than willing to take the special effects of the Star Wars series
as teaching and learning tools, and more than willing to exclude
Trek's effects to keep your double-standard going. I interpret the
massive explosions completely differently, and you can insult me all
you wish, but it will be just as meaningless as trying to dispute the
events through a mere complaint.

The viewer image is the favorite image of the
anti-Trek side, depicting the fading of several massive explosions,
once the bombardment of only a handful of seconds had concluded.
Here, you can already see the shockwaves spreading out across the
planet, thanks to Romulan plasma torpedoes & disruptor cannons,
alongside Cardassian phaser cannons. The explosions are clearly
massive. In addressing: "...less destruction at surface
level than a large asteroid strike," not too many "...large
asteroid..." strikes render "30% Of the planetary
crust destroyed in opening volley..." ("The Die is
Cast", Episode No: 467, Air Date: 05.01.1995, Stardate:
Unknown). Below is a picture with red lines to enhance and more
clearly define the diameter and radii of the explosions, the largest
of which coming from a Romulan plasma torpedo detonation.

"... with non-persistent fireballs, no visible ejecta whatsoever ..."

Fiery mushroom clouds do not form, immediately upon
detonation. They are the result of the implosion, as flaming debris
is brought back in to ground zero, where it collides and goes upwards
into the air, along with tons of soil. The fiery bursts seen more
closely resemble Wilson Clouds.

Ok. Going against a world that was, again, ~12,734
km/7,926.385 miles in diameter, the area of effect that the Romulan
torpedo explosion fireballs covered was ~±35%
planetary diameter, or ~4,456.9 km/~2,763.278 mi. in diameter. The
measurement is based on the fact that the Founders' World is listed
as being Earth-like.

Founders' homeworld. Sunless Class-M
planet located somewhere in the Omarian Nebula in the Gamma Quadrant.
The planet was the home of the reclusive civilization of
shape-shifters known as the Founders and the central planet of the
Dominion. ("The Search, Part 1" [DS9]). In 2371, the Tal
Shiar and Obsidian Order launched a massive attack against the
Founders' homeworld, bombarding the planet's surface with a fleet of
20 starships. Neither attacker realized that the Founders had
evacuated the planet, or that they had a fleet of 150 Jem'Hadar ships
waiting to destroy the invaders. ("The Die is Cast"
[DS9]. SEE: Lovok, Colonel; Tain, Enabran.

It should be noted that while the shockwave was
clearly visible as a blast-front, what was mostly visible was the
gigantic fireball, however, both pieces of visual evidence must be
examined carefully and objectively. A fireball doesn't, ordinarily,
spread out that quickly, though the shockwave can through superheated
air. Something moving that quickly and being fiery as it was could
only be one thing: a Wilson Cloud. Remember: Preceding the actual
fireball, in some instances, is the formation of what could be a
gigantic "condensation cloud', or "Wilson Cloud'
(so-called, due to it's being analogous to those created by
scientists in the Wilson Cloud Chamber, back in the 20th century).
With the detonation of a nuclear weapon, there is the passage of a
supersonic, high-pressure shock front through the air, which, in
turn, is followed by a rarefaction (or suction) wave. During the
blast (called the compression phase), air temperatures rise, and,
during the decompression (or the suction phase), it falls. Moderately
low blast pressures can have temperature drops falling below it's
original, pre-shock value, so that if the air contains a fair amount
of water vapor, condensation accompanied by the formation of a cloud
occurs. Back in 1946 during the ABLE Test at Bikini, a thermonuclear
warhead was detonated. Since the device had been detonated just above
the surface of a lagoon, the air was near-saturated with water vapor
and the conditions were more than suitable for the formation of the
Wilson Cloud. In photographs, it is clearly seen that the Wilson
Cloud formed some distance ahead of the fireball. The reason was due
to the shock front's travelling a considerable distance, before the
blast pressure had fallen sufficiently to allow a low temperature to
be attained in the following decompression phase. By the time the
temperature had dropped far enough as was required for condensation
to occur, the blast wave front had moved even further away, and could
even be seen where the disk-like formation on the surface of the
water indicated the passage of the shockwave. When there's relatively
high humidity (such as over or under water), as with the famous
Bikini tests of 1946, conditions for seeing a nuclear Wilson Cloud
are very favorable, and forms about 1-2 seconds after detonation.
However, about 1-2 seconds later, after the air had begun warming up,
the condensation cloud disappears. They can appear dome-shaped, and
change shape (such as into rings), as they disappear. Wilson Clouds
appear after the fireball has emitted most of it's thermal rays, so
it really doesn't have any effect on this radiation, while it is
simultaneously true that fairly thick cloudcover can attenuate
thermal rays from reaching the earth from the fireball. Also, when
considering the surface was "...destroyed...",
there is very little reason to expect to see your "...visible
ejecta...". There were no significant structures on the
surface (such as large buildings), and plasma torpedoes would
probably completely incinerate into vaporization anything they
destroy. The Cardassian phasers were on unknown settings, but, if
they were at full power and similar to those of UFP Starfleet
phasers, fragments would be exceedingly small. Let's also not forget
the fact that this was being viewed from hundreds upon of hundreds of
kilometers of distance; probably highest orbit.

"In fact, the ONLY evidence that the
ships in orbit were capable of anything more than surface-level
destruction was one of several possible interpretations of a piece of
dialogue, which is to say no conclusive evidence at all."

Patently untrue. There is absolutely nothing ambiguous
about "30% Of the planetary crust destroyed in opening volley."
Any such ambiguities that could possibly be there were injected by
Star Wars zealots that were disappointed in the fact that they were
finally, decisively and conclusively whipped by their whipping boy,
Star Trek. There is no reason to try running off to interpret "...30%
Of the planetary crust destroyed in opening volley..." in
any other way than it was said, except by those attempting
obfuscation of the obvious facts through smoke-screening. From the
official Star Trek website (www.startrek.com), their synopsis is
equally direct:

Episode No: 467Air Date:
05.01.1995Stardate: Unknown

The Die Is
Cast

Synopsis

After rejoining his former Cardassian
mentor, Enabran Tain, Garak helps him in a joint mission with the
Obsidian Order and the Romulan Tal Shiar. Tain has masterminded a
plan to destroy the Founders — Odo's people, who rule the
Dominion — and their homeworld. Tain, along with Colonel Lovok
of the Tal Shiar, leads a fleet of cloaked Romulan and Cardassian
ships into the Gamma Quadrant, commanding them from their Romulan
Warbird. Garak is told to question Odo, who is being held prisoner
aboard Tain's ship. However, Odo says he knows none of his people's
secrets. On the station, Sisko learns of Tain's mission, and is
warned by Starfleet's Admiral Toddman to prepare for retaliatory
attacks by the Jem'Hadar.

Fearing Odo is aboard one of the
Romulan ships, Sisko and his officers, including Security Chief
Eddington, defy a direct order from Toddman and take the Defiant into
the Gamma Quadrant to search for Odo. Soon afterward, the ship
suddenly and inexplicably decloaks, leaving them vulnerable to attack
by the Jem'Hadar, the Dominion's soldiers. Meanwhile, as Tain, Garak,
and Lovok head for the Founders' planet, Tain urges Garak to
interrogate Odo and learn if his people have a secret defense system.
Garak agrees, but finds himself conflicted.

On the Defiant,
Eddington confesses to sabotaging the cloaking device, under orders
from Toddman to prevent pursuit of Tain's fleet. Back at the Romulan
ship, Garak interrogates Odo using a device that prevents him from
changing his shape. Odo insists he is not hiding anything, but Garak
persists, and Odo begins to literally dry up and fall apart. Unable
to watch Odo's excruciating agony, Garak begs him to talk, and Odo
reveals his secret — he wants to rejoin his people. Shaken,
Garak deactivates the device and lets Odo finally morph into liquid
form.

Garak claims that Odo knows nothing, and Tain orders Odo
killed. However, Lovok and Garak convince him to spare Odo for later
Romulan study. The fleet then reaches the Founders' planet and opens
fire, destroying part of the surface, but there is no change in the
life form readings. Garak discovers their ships have been lured into
a trap — the planet is actually deserted. As he explains, their
vessels are suddenly surrounded by 150 Jem'Hadar ships.

The
Jem'Hadar attack, and Garak takes advantage of the chaos to escape
and rescue Odo. Surprisingly, Lovok helps them get to their Runabout
and reveals he is actually one of the Founders. His people learned of
Tain's plan and encouraged it in order to bait the Obsidian Order and
Tal Shiar into annihilation. Lovok tries to convince Odo to return
home, but he refuses. Forced to leave behind Tain, Odo and Garak
escape on their ship, and the Defiant rescues them from the Jem'Hadar
assault. The Romulan/Cardassian fleet is destroyed as the crew
returns to the Alpha Quadrant, barely escaping with their lives.

The sentence stating: "The fleet then reaches
the Founders' planet and opens fire, destroying part of the surface,"
very well reinforces the Romulan bridge officer's analysis: "30%
Of the planetary crust destroyed in opening volley." Like I've
already said, any so-called and alleged ambiguities are manufactured
by those that have wild eyes that they keep shut, as is the case when
dealing with the average Star Wars absurdist.

"Contrast this to their various
attempts to destroy asteroids in "Rise"..."

In the episode "Rise" (Star Trek: Voyager,
episode 60, teleplay by Brannon Braga, story by Jimmy Diggs, directed
by Robert Scheerer), it was stated quite clearly that Voyager's
firepower was more than adequate to destroy the asteroid, and it was
treated as a mystery as to why they didn't. Had you taken to time to
further elaborate, you should've brought up the fact that the
asteroids were, in fact, artificial. These asteroids of yours were
revealed to be weapons of mass destruction, used to pummel planets
into submission and destruction. Furthermore, these asteroids
should've been destroyed. In fact, not only destroyed, but vaporized,
as the script clearly reveals:

Janeway: "Fire."

Tuvok:
"The asteroid is fragmenting. But, most of the debris is still
on a collision course with the planet."

Janeway: "Target
the fragments. Destroy them."

Chakotay: "That
asteroid should have been vaporized. What happened?"

Kim:
"I'm not sure. Sensors showed a simple nickel-iron composition.
We shouldn't be seeing fragments more than a centimeter in diameter."

(Sklar tells of the similar outcome of their own
efforts on previous asteroids.)

Tuvok: "I've destroyed most of the
debris, Captain. However, targeting scanners were unable to track two
of the fragments. They have already entered the upper atmosphere.

(Tuvok's report comes at 1:10 in the episode, 28
seconds after the asteroid was first hit, and 20 seconds after
Janeway's order to destroy the fragments.)

Four minutes into the episode, we learn something
interesting from a Nisu scientist named Vadum, "our most
prominent astrophysicist," as per the Ambassador's statements.

Vadum: "Ambassador, I've been
analyzing the debris, and I've discovered disturbing evidence that
the asteroids are not what they seem! They are composed of artificial
materials. I must meet with you immediately . . ." (garbling,
then transmission cuts out)

Courtesy of http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWrise.html

Then, the same episode further clarifies that the
asteroids had an anomalous physical composition:

Commonly, Star Wars zealots fail to point out that the
concentration and heat of vaporization of triatium is completely
unknown, and, is quite probably fairly high. How large was this
asteroid?

From here, scaling the torpedo is a simple matter. For
the sake of being conservative, I will assume that Voyager's torpedo
is fired in a portward direction (i.e. toward the observer) . . .
this will have the effect of making the torpedo glow area smaller. It
should be noted that it is pretty clear from the episode that Voyager
was shooting roughly dead-ahead. However, making the torpedo appear
to be smaller will have the effect of making the asteroid seem
smaller, making this a conservative estimate.

Scaling off of Voyager's port side, and using the
torpedo as it appeared two frames after being fired, the central
glowing area of the torpedo (i.e. not including the streamers) is
approximately 10 meters in diameter. Now, I shall take the asteroid
as it appeared two frames before torpedo impact (image below). (The
image one frame before impact shows an illumination of the asteroid
surface, and I do not want my estimate thrown off as a result). I
count the torpedo as being a grand total of four pixels wide, with
the central glowing area constituting two pixels or so of width. The
asteroid is sitting at an angle of about 45 degrees in the shot . . .
tipping it so the long axis is vertical, we have an asteroid length
of 78 pixels, with a width varying between 37 and 50 pixels. I shall
treat the asteroid as if it were a rough cylinder.

If one pixel equals five meters, this gives the
asteroid an approximate length of 390 meters, with a width varying
between 185 and 250 meters.

Courtesy of http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWrise.html

That's a pretty big asteroid. Utilizing similar
methodologies, you came up with your own estimate for asteroid sizes
in Episode 4, and none of the destroyed asteroids were estimated to
be anywhere near approximate to "...390 meters, with a
width varying between 185 and 250 meters."

"...and "Pegasus"..."
This is another manifest un-truth. Your implication that they lacked
the power to destroy the asteroid in which the Galaxy-class
Enterprise had been trapped is a lie, as the script plainly states:

"The asteroid's internal structure
is highly unstable. Any attempt to cut through the rock could cause
the entire chasm to collapse."

This was spoken by whom you call "...the
supposedly infallible Data ...".

As for the episode "Cost of Living", most
Star Wars absurdists and zealots deftly avoid a description given as
to the material composition of the asteroid in question. Why? Because
it was composed of unknown substances that had an unknown heat of
vaporization and level of durability. Let's take a look:

Photon
torpedo strike against asteroid as Enterprise pursues.

"Note also that the "Rise" asteroid is
not the largest asteroid we've seen destroyed by torpedoes, or the
densest. "Cost of Living"[TNG] shows the Enterprise-D using
two torpedoes to destroy an asteroid, and the first torpedo is not
even visible for most of the second torpedo's trip.

"This asteroid is shattered, not vaporized. The
asteroid was large enough, however, to have a differentiated core
composed of "densely compressed nitrium and chrondite", and
the remaining core was of sufficient size and density to cause
planetwide damage to the planet below. Even if we merely assume a
10-15 megaton blast similar to Tunguska, that's still an asteroid of
tremendous size, tremendous density, or both (at somewhat less
tremendous levels). Data concluded that another torpedo would be
unlikely to damage the core, but was able to shatter the core with a
technobabble particle beam from the deflector. Judging by the beam,
the core remnant was the size of the secondary hull of the
Enterprise. The remaining core fragments no longer posed a danger,
and were then flown through by the Enterprise on her way out of the
system: "

- Courtesy of http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWrise.html

What do you know about nitrium?

Nitrium. A metal alloy used in the construction of
Federation starships. Nitrium is used in the interior construction of
such ship's systems as inertial dampening field generators, power
transfer conduits, and the matter/antimatter reaction chamber. ("Cost
of Living" [TNG]).

-Star Trek Encyclopedia, a Reference Guide to the
Future (Updated and Expanded Edition), "Nitrium", pg.:
325. Written by Michael Okuda and Denise Okuda, with Debbie Mirek.

You are quick to assume everything in favor of Star
Wars, but always quick to try to double-standard it against Star
Trek, but, that's to be expected from someone that says they're
biased against Star Trek. This is further evidenced by such
dismissive insults as "...not with the unreasonable
extrapolations derived from optimistic interpretations of dialogue
that are common to wild-eyed Trekkie fanatics...", which
is merely an attempt to pre-emptively discredit and dismiss perfectly
valid points.

2) The common use of TESB as a maximum
benchmark (rather than a ridiculously conservative lower limit) for
Imperial firepower is actually a joke in light of the fact that
Slave-1 was effortlessly pulverizing multi-kilometre wide asteroids
in AOTC. It's precisely analogous to saying that you saw an M1
Abrams' 120mm smoothbore punch through drywall, so you're going to
take that as a firepower limit for a 120mm smoothbore even though a
comparatively miniscule handgun can do the same thing, and the
published specs for a 120mm smoothbore are much higher. Having said
that, the calculations show that it takes around a third of a megaton
to vape one of those asteroids as shown, although ISD guns are
actually much more powerful than that.

This paragraph was, quite frankly, a waste of time to
even compose, though I do agree with you that turbolasers mounted on
Imperial and Imperial II class star destroyers are far more powerful
than megaton, more accurately being in the range of ~418(1018)
J/100 gigatons of TNT. In any event, if neither of the asteroid field
scenes were considered benchmarks, what is? The Death Star certainly
isn't, because superlasers aren't mounted on most ships, with the
obvious exceptions of the Eclipse and Sovereign classes (both of
which were less powerful than the superlaser mounted on the original
Death Star).