Some Zen folks say weird stuff because, well, the "logic" of Zen, Huayan and much of the rest of the Mahayana is not our ordinary logic (e,g, for us "when Charles catches cold, Mary sneezes" means something like the Beatles "I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together" and actually makes sense beyond ordinary sense!) Sometimes, we try to say things beyond words to express the inexpressible ... so all that drawing Enso circles in the air and MUing. Sometimes someone like Dogen said wild stuff because he believed in the power of certain words and images as turning words ... that the words were not only "the finger pointing at the moon" but that the moon was shining forth from the very finger tip itself.

And sometimes, too frequently, some Zen teachers (and other experienced folks who should know better) talk total obscure bullshit and psyho-babble because they don't have clarity themselves and say such weird stream of consciousness new agey Koany clapdoodle to cover their tracks or because they feel that just saying that kind of thing is Truth (I can point out any number of podcasts and essays from some surprising sources I will not name, and a fool is born every minute. Sometimes a robe and a little charm cover up many failings. But let me just say that if someone is saying weird wacko stuff about a Koan ... sometimes it is wise and sometimes it is just weird wacko,).

Nobody can tell you about your own Teacher. In fact, some of the problem may just be lack of chemical resonance between Teacher and student and, what is helpful and insightful for student A can't be fathomed by student B. . Also, how you feel today may not be how you feel next week or next year (like a marriage or any relationship that way).

In the end, as many wise teachers say, the teacher is not to tell you anything, and just point the way (moon and finger). You need to do your own heavy lifting. Also, sometimes the most imperfect teachers are the best. Why? They help us get past the need for perfection in all things, which is a BIG important lesson of our Way. Coo coo cachoo,

Gassho, JundoSatToday

Founder Treeleaf Zendo, Japan. Member SZBA. Treeleaf is an online Sangha for those unable to commute to a Sangha, w/ netcast Zazen, interaction with other practitioners and teachers & all activities of a Soto Sangha, fully online without charge (http://www.treeleaf.org) Nishijima/Niwa

Some just know what is required. For example how to best deal with the mentally ill, the new agey, the beginner and the Zen Mistress, simultanously, across time and cultures? One way is creating noise to be silenced

Another is dancing ones head off.

Too little formality and we kill the freedom. Too much free expression and even the Buddha is unsafe ...

Hmmm. May I ask you each something? Do you believe that you can only communicate through poetry and obscure phrasing, and that one can't express Wisdom and Compassion in ordinary prose?

There is a balance in all things, and if that is all someone can do, then maybe they should ask themself why. There are Zen folks in centuries past who used to overly resort to waving their fly whisk and impenetrable statements, and it is true today too sometimes. There is timeless times for that but, if that is all one can do, then one maybe should reflect on why so perhaps, Sometimes it is lovely and inspiring, and sometimes it simply makes communication and conversation difficult.

Gassho, Jundo

Founder Treeleaf Zendo, Japan. Member SZBA. Treeleaf is an online Sangha for those unable to commute to a Sangha, w/ netcast Zazen, interaction with other practitioners and teachers & all activities of a Soto Sangha, fully online without charge (http://www.treeleaf.org) Nishijima/Niwa

I dont know- Sometimes a weird turn of a phrase can hit home but being direct seems to resonate better, to reach more people- Strangeness can be a defense mechanism, a fear of inimacy, an attempt to convince people youre (general) deep, intelligent, funny, clever, have youre shit together -- very Zen-ish- It takes all kinds- Everybody has a preference- I love Dave Chappelle and Bill Burr- Theyre direct-

Hmmm. May I ask you each something? Do you believe that you can only communicate through poetry and obscure phrasing, and that one can't express Wisdom and Compassion in ordinary prose?

There is a balance in all things, and if that is all someone can do, then maybe they should ask themself why.

Indeed.

If one is crazy, happy and makes others happy, that is worthwhile.If one is befuddled, confusing and unintelligibble/incomprehensible and not generating wisdom, compasssion and unravelling, then not a skilful state. Certainly not awakening, dharma or anything but egoic self indulgence ...

It is a question of appropriate to the situation and people involved ...

I just wonder if some responses emerge from clarity, poetry, just being cute with words, mental disease and confusion, trying to be helpful to other beings, trying to say what is difficult to say in ordinary grammar, limited abilities in English language, trying to be cute, trying to keep a white-knuckled grip on reality, being high, just trying to pass the time, or some combinations thereof?

I have my personal feeling on this, but I will keep it to myself and walk my way.

Gassho, Jundo

Founder Treeleaf Zendo, Japan. Member SZBA. Treeleaf is an online Sangha for those unable to commute to a Sangha, w/ netcast Zazen, interaction with other practitioners and teachers & all activities of a Soto Sangha, fully online without charge (http://www.treeleaf.org) Nishijima/Niwa

What I am saying is insignificant compared to the meaning you give it. Communication is 99% dependant on the interpretation of the listener. Interpretation is 100% dependant on what we already know. To arrive at the unknown, logic and clarity are not enough.

Words are powerful, they are just dependant on the past. As we are not omniscient, best to use them in order bring out the positive.

macdougdoug wrote:Silence is usually interpreted as top grade metaphysics.

And does that statement mean something to you, or just something you say? I am curious? Might you explain it in a way that more simple individuals such as myself can understand?

Gassho, Jundo

Founder Treeleaf Zendo, Japan. Member SZBA. Treeleaf is an online Sangha for those unable to commute to a Sangha, w/ netcast Zazen, interaction with other practitioners and teachers & all activities of a Soto Sangha, fully online without charge (http://www.treeleaf.org) Nishijima/Niwa

It was meant to be funny. I remembered a guru who stayed silent for a few seconds after being asked a question, and his silence was taken as a fabulous symbolic statement about the truth and such. Just old memories, awkward at the time but gives me the giggles now.

jundo wrote:I just wonder if some responses emerge from clarity, poetry, just being cute with words, mental disease and confusion, trying to be helpful to other beings, trying to say what is difficult to say in ordinary grammar, limited abilities in English language, trying to be cute, trying to keep a white-knuckled grip on reality, being high, just trying to pass the time, or some combinations thereof?

I have my personal feeling on this, but I will keep it to myself and walk my way.