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[[ 'tea-stall attendant' explains the economic background...his family life over the last few decades gives away another aspect of his personality...economic deprivation and impotency have been known to create extreme rage in man...he tries hard to hide the rage held within...but the squeals, shrieks and shouts in his 'speech' betray his rage, every now and then.]]

Extending your argument, since Muslims are one of the most deprived communities in India, does that explain the the impotency and extreme rage amongst Muslims, which causes them to riot at the drop of a hat?

>>>> "Women throughout history have adored people who oppressed them"
>> What a macho and patronising comment?

It is the exact opposite. It is a crticism of women who uphold patriarchal supremacy.

Then your statement should have been "there are women who have adored people who oppressed them" or even better," there are folks who adored people who oppressed them". In fact there is something called Stolkholm syndrome.

Hitesh made an equally facile statement and retracted when pointed out. You could have done the same. Now you have become butt of a joke..

>>>> "Women throughout history have adored people who oppressed them"
>> What a macho and patronising comment?

It is the exact opposite. It is a crticism of women who uphold patriarchal supremacy. The second half of my comment referred to the fact that men-generated religions put women down, and yet women are for some reason more religious than men.

"Women throughout history have adored people who oppressed them"- Anwaar.
What a macho and patronising comment? Has the Modi-hatred affected your mental balance? So you think the demonstrations in the 'Rape capital' are really outpouring of love and admiration? Disgusting!!

Saifuddin >> the young who adore him know that there are good roads all over the country (atleast as good as a southern country can boast of)...its the blood-letting that he orchestrated that appeals to them.

Yes, there was no blood letting by your brothers in Kashmir valley since they preferred to wholescale deport people who lived before your brothers even arrived . And that is not rage in your world view. Such a predictable apologist for talibani fascism !!

'tea-stall attendant' explains the economic background...his family life over the last few decades gives away another aspect of his personality...economic deprivation and impotency have been known to create extreme rage in man...he tries hard to hide the rage held within...but the squeals, shrieks and shouts in his 'speech' betray his rage, every now and then.

the young who adore him know that there are good roads all over the country (atleast as good as a southern country can boast of)...its the blood-letting that he orchestrated that appeals to them.

New Delhi: After Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi's hat-trick in the state assembly elections, Congress general secretary Digvijaya Singh Saturday accused the BJP of paying Rs 500 to each Muslim in the state to stop them from voting.

'This has been the BJP's strategy for the last 15-20 years. The BJP cadre and candidates fan out in Muslim-majority constituencies and enforce a lower voter turnout by buying them off. They blatantly distribute cash among the Muslim population and take away their voter ID cards, thus keeping them away from polling booths,' Singh told news channel Headlines Today in an interview.

'If you see the voting pattern in Muslim-dominated areas, the turnout is never more than 25-30 percent. Voters are bought over for as less as Rs.500. This is not a wild allegation. I have evidence and am saying it with full responsibility,' said Singh. According to Singh, the BJP swept 12 of the 19 constituencies in Gujarat where Muslims are in majority.''

//May be Gujarat is a land of milk and honey for muslims and may be Madhu Kishwar will confirm it for us when she visits Gujarat next month.//
This is typical of blinkered chavs.
If someone dislikes chocolate, they must love vanilla. If I dislike Snakes, I must love a mongoose.
Is it strawman season yet?
Gujarat is neither heaven or hell for muslims. It, however is a lot better for everyone than most indian large states with populations over 5 crore.

1>> accused of being funded by BJP<<
>>>I thought it was Zahira Sheikh who was funded by Madhu Srivastav to the tune of Rs. 18 lakhs, if I am not mistaken, to lie. She spent time in jail for perjury.

We are talking about Phoolka. You compared Phoolka with Teesta as fighters of justice for riot victims. True to your style, you go into a tangent.

And since you brought up Zahira and Madhu Srivastava, the Tehelka sting clearly shows Srivastava saying that Zahira is asking for more as Teesta has offered her XXX. This sting which was subsequently suppressed conveniently escapes you.

>>I am maintaining a record of all cases against Teesta Setalvad hope-and-hope.blogspot.in/2012/10/the-cases-against-teesta-setalvad.html . This does not seem to figure there. Can you give the details?

"he objective is clear: to derail the ongoing justice process in the Supreme Court – where Modi’s own fate hangs in the balance – and the fast track courts in Gujarat – where nearly 350 accused, including many senior leaders of the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) and the Bajrang Dal, face the prospect of conviction and long years in prison."

Atleast Modi fate hangs in balance but this NGO cottage industries in hanging umbalance. tried to implicate Tagodia, jay Patel and Modi miserabley failed to do so becuase lie after lie cant be made it as a Truth that this NGO's has to understand.

Now Mami make sure you read next time what you copy paste dont do in haste..

Your proudly said why dead body should not be digged right? Then prove that they are relaives but they dont do so

Your own admission: -

"January 2, 2006: With a view to preventing them from cooperating with the CBI in giving blood samples, etc for the DNA tests, the Lunawada police register an FIR against the relatives of the deceased, charging them with illegal digging of the bodies."

A Bold women Teestas whom you call as a saviour of minorities all of sudden become "Abbala Nari" of this country and wants investiagtion to be done in Mumabi..Why? Rest we all saw how she was romanticising with SIT when SIT called Modi for enquiry and almost on all news channel she kept on saying next step of SIT would be to file FIR against Modi but what happned Blued Eyed SIT turned out to be enemy No-1...

"March 18, 2011: The investigating officer issues summons under Section 160 of the CrPC, asking Setalvad to be present at the Lunawada police station on March 25. Setalvad replies, requesting the investigating officer to consider the provision of Section 160 of the CrPC which specifies that being a woman, her statement as a witness was required to be recorded at her residence, in Mumbai. "

Now except

March 3, 2002 where Gujarati News Paper repoted killing incident and October 29, 2002 court acquits them...Rest all the Date and Year points finger at Teesta and Raiz Khan for digging the grave.

"through its order of May 27, the Gujarat high court quashed the charge sheet that had named Setalvad as an “absconding accused”. "

But this doesn't quashes her guilty nor acquits her of charges framed against her only she is no more an absconding as per Gujarat High Court

"Subsequently you know of Supreme Court's ruling".

Thats why Aftab asks Gujarat Govt take back FIR..But charges framed against her still remain intact.

So you think our main stream english didn't had this information, why they didn't debated it? Debate it let see how country reacts to it...When we can debate Madras High Court Judge letter to CJI why can't this?

"Just type Justice Soni Justice Alam and google it"

First of all google is not at all required to prove that Teesta is guilty and Aftab is trying to protect her, if common sense is there that's enough to judge them.

Google is used by very high intellectual peopls on this earth and I am not among them, only crystal clear understanding is that Teesta must have been jailed by court for Pandarpur Grave digging.

>>>After all Soni was among 90% becuase he trusted Judiciary better he should have gone to media first and expose Aftab...

Just type Justice Soni Justice Alam and google it. You will get all mirror sites without one iota of critical thinking. But what a cackle they provide! Soni can still go to media.Infact everyone should publicize Soni's letter. My blog had completely analysed Soni's letter and Alam's speech. More people will start doing that with more publicity...

What was the purpose of Soni's letter except to get Justice Alam out of Gujarat related cases in Supreme Court? Why did he not file a PIL? Fear of censure from SC? So the letter. As I had shown in my analysis, the letter was frivolous

Mami please read that letter again I would request you....Censur from what SC? dont forget if he wanted he would have gone to media first garner as much support from Gujarati's and other people for exposing this Aftab Alam and his attitude towards Gujarat this would have boiled the country agains and this time judiciary would have been divided on lines of communal the way Kejriwal does and then he would have approached court but he didn't do so why?

PIL for what to tell fellow Judge is not in terms with Law don't this Aftab and CJI understand this? Are they kid? Rest history has answer in itself Hindus have stood behind somone who stood for them and this case would not have been different belive me...

"Can you explain to us why grave digging (done by the relatives of those who were buried there) was wrong? All the details of the case are in the link that I had provided"

Court too has agreed that action by Teesta is gross negligence thats why Law still hold her guilty and asking Gujarat to take back FIR..why dont Aftab quahed FIR then and there itself?

"No wonder a suitable replacement of Soni as Lokayukta could not be found."

If Gujarat Govt wanted Soni as a replacment or he wanted it then Soni names would have figured as front runner for 2nd turn but it didnt? Why?

After all Soni was among 90% becuase he trusted Judiciary better he should have gone to media first and expose Aftab...

What was the purpose of Soni's letter except to get Justice Alam out of Gujarat related cases in Supreme Court? Why did he not file a PIL? Fear of censure from SC? So the letter. As I had shown in my analysis, the letter was frivolous.

No wonder a suitable replacement of Soni as Lokayukta could not be found.

Can you explain to us why grave digging (done by the relatives of those who were buried there) was wrong? All the details of the case are in the link that I had provided

"Have a look at in.news.yahoo.com/sc-slams-gujarat-govt-for-case-against-teesta-.html and hope-and-hope.blogspot.in/2012/11/the-case-against-teesta-setalvad_15.html"

Hope you remember Mami Some time back I posted a link of letter written by Justice Soni to CJI where he has highlighted how Justice Aftab Alam deals with Gujarat case.

Now court says this is "fervolous" when after hearing the argument on both side? Why cant he say it on day one itslef looks like this judge thinks he can fool people of this nation just because 90% are fool (As per Genius Sir Katju)

Now question is not of state govt credit (As per secu's Guj Govt is Creditless) but whether she made to digg the Pandarpur Grave or not?

Now court will not listen to Raiz Khan as he has no love left for Teesta. Why?

I read many news sources no where court has slamed this Khan saying he has provided false information to court but every court admitted that grave digging took place, here also we can see Justice Aftab slams Gujarat Govt but not Khan for acting at behest of Teesta..So unauthorised digging of grave is Ok for this Judge...

Even court had the full authority to quash this FIR but left to Gujarat Counsel to decide on it why cant they do it when they can acquit someone they can do this as well but refrained from doing this?

Atleast please read what you copy pasted once, even a layman like me in law subject can understand the attitude of this Judge can't you?

I had seen on TV , woman being interviewed in Gujarat city like Surat and Ahmedabad. It is also true all were Telugu speaking woman. But what they say is also very important because they are far away from home , Hyderabad and other districts like Karimnagar or Vijayawada. And most of them belong to weavers community, certainly not rich people who could have some influence.

During riots (10 years ago) some hundreds of weavers who went to Gujarat cloth exhibition lost everything and came back to Hyderabad with their life.
They are saying now that people here ( in Surat for example ) are afraid to look at woman. There is no eve teasing at all. So they feel safe.

I do not think one motivated lawyer woman's opinion should be taken seriously.

>>To get the perspective right, the one man mission of H.S.Phoolka to get justice for Sikh victims of 1984, has been extremely appreciative of the acievements of Gujarat riot industry sickular activists.

Phoolka is not accused of being funded by BJP or Ford foundation, or of filing false affidavits, or of illegally digging up graves, or conniving with rogue Delhi cops, leader of opposition and unscrupulous journalists to frame a democratically elected CM.

>> To get the perspective right, the one man mission of H.S.Phoolka to get justice for Sikh victims of 1984, has been extremely appreciative of the acievements of Gujarat riot industry sickular activists.

Don't know about you or Phoolka, but I would find it crude to accept money from the perpetrators of 84, while claiming to fight communal violence, particularly of the state sponsored variety.

Maybe for Teesta, any Green is good Green, as long as it is not Saffron tainted.

Kishwar never said it's secret. She said they received funds, they agree they received funds, you agree they received funds.

It seems to me that everyone agrees that Teesta and Javed received funds from foreign donors and Congress. One can disagree whether it was ethical for them to receive these while talking against Modi, but how does stating a fact that everyone agrees on disgrace Kishwar?

>Lol! All this while, we saw a deluge of links from Manushi seen as an authority on all issues. The moment Kishwar writes something unpalatable to our liberals, she becomes a disgrace! Our liberals would make a good case study.

I have no disagreement over her criticism over media etc. Media coverage often lacks depth. Actually. I practically don't watch TV, because of its lack of depth and shoutings and posturings. Where I disagree with Madhu is over

He is alleged to be a man with a fascist mindset with Muslims of Gujarat supposedly living as an endangered minority in perpetual fear and insecurity. Interestingly this charge is most loudly and aggressively levelled by NGO activists who have received massive support—financial material and political form the Congress party and its governments as well as powerful international donor agencies.

The funding is in the public domain and is no secret. Here I have tried to assemble available material regarding Communalism Combat in public domain hope-and-hope.blogspot.in/2012/12/the-case-against-teesta-setalvad-funding.html . One of the other NGOs active in Gujarat cases is Mukul and Nirjari Sinha's Jan Sangharsh Manch formed explicitly to fight for the riot victims and they have also taken up the cases of encounter killings.Their work in analysind the CD's of call records was cruicial in nailing down the offenders in Naroda Patiya case.

May be Gujarat is a land of milk and honey for muslims and may be Madhu Kishwar will confirm it for us when she visits Gujarat next month. The issue as far as riot industry sickulars is concerned is over justice to victims and survivors of Gujarat 2002. Teesta and Co started their activism with Bombay riots, starting Communalism Combat in 1993. I respect the activists for sticking to their agenda, especially in face of calls for amnesia. To get the perspective right, the one man mission of H.S.Phoolka to get justice for Sikh victims of 1984, has been extremely appreciative of the acievements of Gujarat riot industry sickular activists.

I have learnt a lot from Madhu Kishwar's writings and continue to remain her admirer. I have never been anybody's chamcha. Even in this piece of writing she makes many important points. But she can ask herself, how Gandhi would have acted in a similar situation - Would he have been piqued by a snub in a TV debate? Even this article of hers, could she have not written it unemotionally and made a much stronger impact ?

One person wins an election and you will be surprised to see the outpouring of wisdom from liberal circles. The election was apparently fought on peace, governance and development but liberals conclude:

1) Both Congress and BJP are same!
2) There is peace because rioters are in the government and minorities are shit scared. For such people an example of minorities not living in fear is UP where we saw more than 100 riots since seculars formed the government.
3) Women like alpha males! Modi is such a moron focusing on development and governance for all these years.

Lol! All this while, we saw a deluge of links from Manushi seen as an authority on all issues. The moment Kishwar writes something unpalatable to our liberals, she becomes a disgrace! Our liberals would make a good case study.

Reg proportional representation, I am not a great advocate, not for reasons you suggested byt something even more basic -

All, I repeat all Indian political parties (including the favourite AAP) , except BJP and Left parties are essentially one person or one family shows and ideology is compromised (AAP may be an exception) at the altar of power.

AAP and JDU are reasonably non feudal and not family run parties but even they are run by whims and fancies of one supreme leader.

The BJP and Left are hated for different reasons which may or maynot be right but both are commendable in that they have not become one person or one family shows. Even a BJP Under Modi will not be able to make it a one person show (Modi cannot say remove a Shivraj Chauhan at his whim or will). To some extent Left , has to accomodate a achuthanandan despite what his factional rival wanted...

Given this, we need strong measures to remove the rampant feudalism in indian political parties - starting with the party that has ruled and been ruling India for 56 years.

Some strong laws that prevent family members of a political leader from entering politics without "direct mandate" and laws that prevent a leader from serving more than 3 terms in any political office (like in US) should be brought here. And all these IMHO are greater priority than bringing proportional representation.

PS - BTW it is not understood that one social group that will immensely benefit from Prop Representation will be the Muslims. They can then set their own conservative political party and simply target to get their 15-20% vote share and then bargain with rest. (Not that it will really benefit muslims - history shows how middlemen in minority religions always make decisions in self interest and not in common interest). And Contrary to what you think Conservative Right wing sanghi Hindus will not benefit from Prop representation in any manner.

>>>This is a well criticized byline of the western "fine print" on democracy.

I was not aware of that. I am not criticizing democracy, but the proportional representation system.

And I am not going to go into the merits of proportional representation system in theory without going through it in practice. I think some time back, in UK someone (may be Govt. appointed one) did a study of proportional representation for UK. Whai I will do is compile various studies and post a link.

Making stupid meaningless remark is not "engaging". You can try, but so far you haven't given any evidence of competence.

>> Saroja sure has lot more tolerance for insipid drivel than I do

She is a lot more honest too. That's something you can learn from her.

>> so I try to be brief.

Lack of words should not suggest lack of thoughts or intelligence. Unfortunately in your case, the shortness of both stands out.

And finally, I don't know why she started talking about "proportional representation". I regard everyone who believes in it as a moron. Am willing to "engage" with them, if I think they can produce an intelligent thought from time to time.

>>Just see the extremists (Nour Party) will piggy ride on moderates( Muslim Brotherhood). They have proportional representation system.

This is a well criticized byline of the western "fine print" on democracy.

Speaking on the hypocrisy of the US administration towards democracy in the Arab World, Chomsky gave an example of the US and Israel’s punishment of Gaza “for using democracy” to elect a Hamas government.

Chomsky described the 2006 elections in Gaza as “the first real free election in the Arab World.” However, because its results did not appeal to the US and Israel, a coup was attempted against the elected government in 2007.

After Hamas succeeded in taking over the Gaza Strip, a blockade was enforced on the enclave by both Egypt and Israel.

“The Western attitude towards democracy: It is fine as long as its outcome is the one we want,” added Chomsky.

"For the West, the most important states are the oil dictatorships. Their democratic uprisings were squashed with Western help."

"The US does not want policies in Arab countries which reflect public opinion."

>>Italians have brought about some changes in their system since then I understand.

It is now ruled by technocracy of ex-Goldmanite Mario Draghi communicating and enforcing ECB/banker's demands to Mario Monti, which now has that buffoon Silvio Berlusconi clamoring for Italy to leave Euro; which I think they (and Greece, Portugal, Spain, Ireland, Estonia and few other countries) should do regardless.

About the proportional representation, OMG! The disaster that is waiting to happen in Egypt! Just see the extremists (Nour Party) will piggy ride on moderates( Muslim Brotherhood). They have proportional representation system. I want to be proved wrong

Proportional representation in Italy led to proportional sharing of loot by politicians (like Congress and BJP despite the noise they make against each other). That was the scandal in the 1990s I think. Italians have brought about some changes in their system since then I understand.

So Kutubuddin Ansari is back in Gujrat. Khali baton se pet nahin bharta and Mr Ansari has realized it while living in West Bengal. Hope everyone realizes it that by electing UPA we are slowly moving towards bankruptcy, the corrupt congressi and their allies are filling their pockets. This needs to stop now.

>>if i am a Hindu Upper caste Indian from South India who does not speak or know Hindi, I should be considered as a minority too. Why I am i excluded?

Why would you be excluded? even if you were an Italian from a prominent Indian political family who spoke only a little hindi :)

>>we should also agree to remove the concept of Government and President nominating some people of eminence to Rajya sabha,

This is a relict of British colonial times much like most of the civil service bureacracy. US Senate was also originally conceived along the same lines but now is a fully elected body.

US goes to the other extreme where local judges, sheriffs, district attorneys and other law enforcement officials are also elected. Merit of trial by jury of one's peers is also debatable (that is how most of the so-called victimless white collar crime goes unpunished or underpunshished)

There is a room for improvement everywhere.

>>Should they also be disenfranchised?

In my opinion, if you don't put your money where your mouth is then you loose all claims to it. In most of the western world, despite many legal tax loopholes, outright tax evasion like it is practiced in India is a serious offense, although not punishable by loss of citizenship.

>>sustainable over a long duration of humanity (say 1 million years from now?

So, attempting to educate, include and empower as much of humanity as possible is a "stupendous act of infinite stupidity" while pondering over what is sustainable million years from now is "enlightened thinking"?

>>welfare state that is what democracy is really about in much of world today, is this sustainable in a world with limited resources?

World has barely had full awareness of legal and political rights in past 50-60 years, let alone "welfare" state unless you are talking about wall street bankers.

Hitesh Brahmbhatt >> "Democracy" itself came after "billion years" history of this earth, that too in fits and starts; gradually extending from Lords and Noblemen to non-property holders, women and blacks, browns and others.

So you are right, we have had a billion years of history on earth (with living creatures) and we have had democracy (again only to 60% or so of people on this planet) for just last 30-50 years..

Even a 100 years is just a puny fraction of One billion, meaning it is too early to say if democracy as an idea is sustainable over a long duration of humanity (say 1 million years from now? and ah 1 million is also just 0.1% of 1 billion !!)

And more so that given we have something called welfare state that is what democracy is really about in much of world today, is this sustainable in a world with limited resources?

R Saroja >> I am not for proportional representation because of the role it played in the rise and success of Hitler.

I am a right of center conservative Hindu and I intensely hate Hitler, the Nazis and their genocidal war. But I am also reasonable in demanding that history is seen not in a black and white perspective but in shades of grey. Unfortunately people with left liberal ideologies in India simply refuse to see anything in polychromatic format and always tend to create historical narratives in terms of Good Guy Vs Evil guy. And that wont work since life is never so simple.

To say that Hitler rose to power due to Proportional representation is nothing but extreme act of delusion that chooses to ignore the circumstances that drove the Nazification of Germany in 1920s and 1930s. And these are:

1. The Post WW1 treaty that made the victors (specifically France) demand huge bucks from the loser (Germany) in such unfair terms that made an entire hard working industrial nation pauperized in short time..

2. The external economic developments particularly the Great Depression in US and the preceding loose money policies by the incompetent pre Hitler german leadership that destroyed a prosperous, industrial nation, recovering from WW1 and made millions starve to penury..

3. The role played by victors (Britain in particular) in villainising the narrative in continental europe and also using the opportunity to build a dissatisfied germany busy with a nationalist versus socialist divide to keep germany as a effective line of defence from the perceived threat of Stalinism and Leninism from Moscow..

4. Anti semitism has 2000 year history before Hitler was even born. Google Dreyfus affair to learn more. The just demand for a separate homeland for Jews of Europe to escape centuries of rampant persecution from the largely christian white europe was not understood nor given the right shape by powers who won the World war and that fuelled the crisis by no small measure.

I could go on and on, but the blood of the dead jews in concentration camps lies not only on Hitler and his cult but also on the french and british nations which shaped the Hitlerite Germany from outside.

But history is always written by winners and as someone on winning side in WW1, WW2 and Cold war, history has always written to praise and favour the british and french. And that is just doctored history.

PS - Just as an aside, I am not hugely in favour of proportional representatiion , but that is for different reasons , not because we will get a hitler and 6 million dead minorities in India (as some leftists scare monger us about).

Hitesh Brahmbhatt >> (1) Right to life and property for all citizens (special protection necessary for minorities and downtrodden)

Can you please define minorities? Why is that religion should be the only criteria to define minorities? If I am a Hindu by birth but atheist in practise, or if i am a Hindu Upper caste Indian from South India who does not speak or know Hindi, I should be considered as a minority too. Why I am i excluded?

Hitesh Brahmbhatt >> (2) Proportional representation across all sections of society so they can keep watchful eye on (1)

I do agree in principle on this but how do we define the sections? Do we define only by caste? Or by gender ? Or by occupation/class? If we agree to this principle, we should also agree to remove the concept of Government and President nominating some people of eminence to Rajya sabha, thereby allowing a select professional elite to collaborate with establishment to promote anti people agenda (.like they did in FDI retail voting)

Hitesh Brahmbhatt >> (3) One person, one vote but in reversal of Boston Tea party slogan No representation, if Tax evasion.

Again an excellent idea. But tell me, why is it that in india , only 3% of Indians are paying income tax? Why is that we have legal sanction where entire sections of society, including landlords owning 100 acres, cultivating tobacco in Coastal AP pay no income tax? Shoudl they also be disenfranchised? Any thoughts

In India, preventive detention can be extended for only three months. After three months, such a case is brought before an advisory board for review. In India, this is given in the Constitution of India under Right to Freedom, a Fundamental Right.

In the United States, the Sixth Amendment to the United States Constitution guarantees the right to "a speedy and public trial". Thus, arrested persons may not be held for extended periods of time without trial.
In late June 2009, United States President Barack Obama was reported to have been considering indefinite preventive detention for some Guantanamo captives

------------------------------------------------------

I won't enjoy being detained: but in a riot like situation, I will be more understanding.

Preventive detention is for a few hours, a day or two. It is not to be confused with detentions under various terror laws. It is effectively used to let hot heads cool down a bit during periods of tension.

That is an unfair charge. I am for women to fight for and get their rights and not for everything to be handed in a platter. I may not like a future where women speak for women and men speak for men, We have seen the consequences of separate electorates. About proportional representation, we should not learn from others'experience? Yes Hitler came to power because of failure of mainstream paries. Can't always expect mainstream parties to be squeaky clean. That does not mean that one condones takeover by some dictator.

>>Let us try doing something that no sane country in the billion years' history of of this earth has ever atempted to do

"Democracy" itself came after "billion years" history of this earth, that too in fits and starts; gradually extending from Lords and Noblemen to non-property holders, women and blacks, browns and others.

If it has taken us "billion years" of history to recognise each as an equally worthy human being, then "human stupidity is indeed infinite".

Hitler came to power with minority vote share because of the failure of the mainstream parties. He subsequently sabotaged the constitution and hijacked the government because of the failure of the judiciary.

>>That is what we have been facing over our entire adult life,

No, we have not been "facing" it, we have been hiding it.

>>But reservation for women in local bodies has resulted in greater participation of women in local matters. That will result in lasting changes than resevation for Lok sabha seats.

there are no good arguments against either, especially in India.

Surprisingly, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Bangladesh are all ahead in this regard.

Sorry if I misunderstood. But frankly, with your blabbering and changing the subject with virtually every sentence, you are not very coherent. Let's examine your statements in the current post itself.

>> because of the role it played in the rise and success of Hitler

I don't know what role it played there, but otherwise, would you have been for it?

>> About Modis and Moditvavadis, can't you hear the din? Who is denying their right to speech?

I don't know what the above is in response to. I didn't talk about FOE anywhere in my post. Again, lack of coherence.

>> I am not sure whether there is something like preventive detention in US.

Again.

>> I have had a whole army of friends and colleagues quoting Voltaire endlessly in early 1990s

Again.

>> Well, Madhu Kishwar is now in disgrace

And yet again. This article is not about Madhu Kishwar. And of course, my views on her latest article are different from yours. If both of us are willing, we can discuss them there.

My post was about proportional representation, which I mistakenly thought you were proposing. Apologies for that. If you are not doing that (though ostensibly, your reasons are different), I have nothing to debate on this issue.

>> "Proportional representation across all sections of society..." - Hitesh

Yes. I mean, by ALL (cross-)sections: race, religion, caste, gender....

Let us try doing something that no sane country in the billion years' history of of this earth has ever atempted to do. Even if we don't succeed, we would let the world know that human stupidity is indeed infinite.

>> "The Sophia Khans and Sarojas realise the beauty of our parliamentary system and have decided that they will speak out, intelligently, if only to defend the honour of people who are too busy to counter the systematic calumny against them." - Saroja

This one takes the cake on these jokers claiming self-righteousness. Yes madam, the rest of use are evil zombies out on the streets to gobble anything that moves and breathes. And, these zombies get doubly enraged if the target smells of minority or shudra. If not for the assorted stalwarts like you and Sophia, the country would have been erased from the globe. We are all thankful for the sacrifices you make for us every day every hour.

I am not for proportional representation because of the role it played in the rise and success of Hitler.

>>the dark underbelly of our secular democracy

That is what we have been facing over our entire adult life, but proportional representation system will be regressive. About women's reservation bill, see I have kept silent. But reservation for women in local bodies has resulted in greater participation of women in local matters. That will result in lasting changes than resevation for Lok sabha seats.

About Modis and Moditvavadis, can't you hear the din? Who is denying their right to speech? I am for intellectuals for tackling them. But intellectuals can't provide the circus you know. And intellectuals have doubts and self doubts.

I am not sure whether there is something like preventive detention in US. In India it is effectively used. In 2002 this preventive detention of possible trouble makers in Mumbai resulted in Gujarat 2002 being confined to Gujarat.

I have had a whole army of friends and colleagues quoting Voltaire endlessly in early 1990s. None of them stepped out of the security of their cocoons to counter the violence which was the result of hate speech that was Ayodhya movement. At least now they do not quote Voltaire.

Well, Madhu Kishwar is now in disgrace, but I have always found her thought provoking. May be you can have a look at the following. I am not necessarily endorsing it - www.manushi.in/blog_content.php

>> What in its negative aspects is seen as "minorityism", is something sought to be institutionalised when proportional representation system is advocated

Eh?

Proportional representation system is exactly opposite to what some people (usually sickos) like to call the "Idea of India".

Amusing to see someone like you advocate it. Haven't we already had a partition based largely on this idea?

And while we are at it, what would be the basis of this system? How will this proportion be determined? Religion, caste, gender, race, economic status?

Will we restrict religion to the major ones (usually Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Sikhs), or fine tune it more to include divisions like Buddhists, Jains, or Shia, Sunni or Akalis/Nirankaris/Namdharis? Will it be further subdivided, say, Digambars and Shwetambars? What about sects like Bohras or Ahmadiyas?

When it comes to caste, do you want to restrict to four major caste groups, or have proportional representation for thousands of castes? Would like to see the secular viewpoint on the details of this proposal.

To some extent, even modern democracy tries to strike balance with its constitutions and consitutional amendments, and checks and balances while depending heavily on individuals to keep moving with times and interpret the law in spirit, not just in letter and change them when necessary. Case in point would be the liberal (so called activist judges) and conservative (literalists) wings of the US Supreme Court bench.

We don't want suave secular generals and foot soldiers to just follow the orders again, do we?

>>The fact is in proportional representation system, Sophia Khans and Sarojas will never be marginalised as they are today, but on the flip side, Modis will never be kicked out.

In a purported democracy where all branches of government and media have been represented by a 5% of the population, proportional representation would be a welcome change but then I hope Sophia Khans and Sarojas stick around to welcome the dark underbelly of our secular democracy with open arms.

When the issue of women's reservation was deservedly brought to the floor of the parliament, there was a demand to include women from all social classes and that was promptly rejected by Brinda Karat (an otherwise progressive leader) among others and poor Sharad Yadav kept hectoring for it. So much for proportional representation.

>> have decided that they will speak out,

It should be the duty of the judicial system to ensure that this right is not encroached upon and same right has be extended to Modis and Moditvawadis.

As Noam Chomsky succinctly said

If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all.

But, when same judiciary repeatedly fails to bring any justice to the victims of violence or tragedy like Bhopal, that sure seems like a tall order.

Why don't we start with modest proposals

(1) Right to life and property for all citizens (special protection necessary for minorities and downtrodden)

(2) Proportional representation across all sections of society so they can keep watchful eye on (1)

Well, the Sophia Khans and Sarojas need more than Arjun Modhvadias. Over the years I have seen how people build up leaders, projected personas on leaders - whether it was firm decisive Indira."modern" Rajiv, "secular, mandal messiah" VP Singh, "erudite polyglot Narasimha Rao, poet PM Vajpayee, economist Manmohan Singh etc. (Janata Party rule and the reigns of Chandrashekhar, Deve Gowda or IK Gujral have not invited serious projections, I wonder why). Of late this hunt for leader has gone out of the rulers to likes of Anna Hazares and Kejriwals....

Democracy in its true spirit is more than one person- one vote. What in its negative aspects is seen as "minorityism", is something sought to be institutionalised when proportional representation system is advocated. The fact is in proportional representation system, Sophia Khans and Sarojas will never be marginalised as they are today, but on the flip side, Modis will never be kicked out.

The Sophia Khans and Sarojas realise the beauty of our parliamentary system and have decided that they will speak out, intelligently, if only to defend the honour of people who are too busy to counter the systematic calumny against them.

"The undeniable fact is Mr Ansari could not lead his livelihood in Leftist paradise of West Bengal"

Whenever the name West Bengal figures in any article only picture appears before my eyes is of Movie "Do Bigah Jamin" in which BalRam Sahani is shown looking at his deserted farm and in another part running with auto puller....

Looks like our Hero Ansari didnt wanted to do what Balram Shani did in Do Bigah Jamin. After all he took wise discission of coming back.

The undeniable fact is Mr Ansari could not lead his livelihood in Leftist paradise of West Bengal but is able to lead a normal life in the evil, worse than somalia Indian state of Gujarat ruled by devil Namo tells that reality is not the black and white movie of hero vs villain that the left liberals of India like to potray.

Curse what you want, but the greatness of Namo Rule is that the rule of law is now established fully and people like Ansari lead their lives in peace.

And yes, the rule of law did not prevail in feb 2002 but so what, it did not prevail for 19 months in 1975-77 yet we have allowed the folks responsible for that to rule us much of our lives from 1980.

There is a limit to fear mongering about Modi ruled gujarat and we have long crossed that limit.

It is a well known fact that gender is just one of the influencing but not only influencing factor in democracies, when it comes to voting patterns.

The women of Gujarat may be women, may be having all the problems faced by women on this planet but merely because they share the gender that professional pseudo intellectuals like A.Roy have, that doesnt mean their brains are also programmed to accept same pseudo intellectual garbage.

Women in Gujarat are impressed by the fast urbanisation, improving infrastructure (roads, electricity ) and complete existence of law and order in the state and hence have voted (more than upper caste men) for Modi.

And this is not an exception. Across the world, women more than men give importance to voting for such leaders who work to establish the "Rule of the Law".

In west (US/Europe/Australia) women tend to vote more for liberals (Democrats and like) because the rule of law is not a concern there (right and left parties both enforce the rule of law equally) and so women focus on voting more left/liberal since such parties promise more welfarism (Whether that is sustainable is a different thing).

But outside the welfare states of US/Europe/Australia, women clearly prefer strong rulers who deliver out of anarchy.

And contrary to what pseudo intellectuals like A.Roy preach, anarchism is extremely unfriendly to the fairer sex. Somalia, which is perhaps the perfect example of a nation state practising anarchy is one of the worst places to live for a woman. Read this:

RAPE IN DELH I!!!!!!!! Must be under a BJP be CM? ----------- NO !!!!! Is DELHI ruled by Congress CM and Delhi Police controlled by Congress UPA GOVT???? ----- Hey- then it can NOT be rape. --------------------- get TEHALKA to do a sting operation OR shall we have Banerjee Commission to disprove that RAPE OCCURED?

Sophia Khan says she can't understand why women like Modi, clearly implying her question is why some women like Modi as she clearly does not like him. Now Outlook Forum "experts" on women can generalize on the basis of no experience and clear evidence to the contrary in this forum (ME)--

ANWAAR>> "Women throughout history have adored people who oppressed them."
ANWAAR >>"All religions have oppressed women and yet women have always been more religious than men."

This article was not in good taste and in no way promotes amity ,infact such articles will only galvanise the already polarised electorate to become radicals.

The fact is the man has won thrice and in true democratic spirit accept it.

It can not be anyone's claim that law courts should be replaced by electoral processes. No wonder with this sort of reasoning floating around, criminals are flocking to political parties. In fact Veerappan had political dreams.

Infact,it is the faith in judiciary getting to the offenders which is the surest bulwark against radicalization. This is not to discount the need to analyze other roots of radicalization, and to take remedial measures.

It is a curious matter indeed. I am not sure if women are really more religious or there might be other motivations.

Women instinctively prefer alpha males; for obvious reasons and that puts competitive pressure among men. Men in turn create religions for the fear of survival and for mutually beneficial cooperation (at least among men).

So long as such a cooperation is tangible and results in economic success, women would not only tolerate religion but may even encourage it (notwithstanding all the idiocy associated with it).

We being part of animal kingdom, forces of evolution has to work on us too.

Now if majority of women were Meg Whitman style republican business executives, then men would get a taste of a different kind of religion :)

People like Ramki & Anwaar Always Thrive on Little Known or the Facts that suits their petty Purpose I hope that they will Never rest in Peace Since Modi has always been some one who could not succumb to their "Bad dua", After all Millions have Nationalist Pray for him

I was missing Gujarat. Moreover, I didn’t want my children to grow away from their state, and with bad perceptions about it. For my family, it was like Partition; I have seen how people affected by it still live with pain and a sense of disconnect. I never wanted the same for my children..

Here is an account of his meeting the photographer who clicked that shot --

"I feel very bad, very sorry to hear that my pictures caused so much problems for you. I apologise," Arko tells Mr Ansari, as we settle down in his home in a slum, not far away from the house with the veranda.

Mr Ansari is sitting opposite him, and his eyes drop to the floor for a moment.

"Nobody is to blame, brother," he tells Arko. "You did your job. I was doing mine, trying to save my life. Your picture showed the world what was happening here. What happened to me eventually was kismet, destiny."

"And as things stand, my life is on the mend. I have a beautiful family, I have work, I have my own little home."

A few years ago, Mr Ansari bought a two-room tenement with a small tailoring shop for 315,000 rupees ($6,400; £4,000) from his paltry savings and loans from friends and family. It is a modest home with a raised bed, a television, a few utensils, a shiny red refrigerator and a washing machine tucked away behind a curtain. Upstairs, he and his co-workers stitch more 100 shirts a week, and he earns up to 7,000 rupees ($142; £90) a month www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-17150859

Qutubuddin Ansari, if you are really honest and innocent guy (That you potray yourself as) why dont you tell us as to why, you did not settle in that SOCIALIST,SECULAR PARADISE of West Bengal that is home to the most prosperious Muslim Minority community in India?

The good news for you is that there are 20 plus states in india not ruled by BJP/NDA. So there should be no malnutrition , no sexual violence right? So if that is the case, can you give us hard data on this? or else, admit that you are JUST ANOTHER SHAMELESS LIAR of the SAINT SONIA CULT THAT HAS DESTROYED INDIA THROUGH 50 PLUS YEARS OF MISRULE.

You can write this kind of article for anyone. Just pick up any 4/5 people with dissenting voice and report it. Modi is no different than any democratic leader. It is democracy and some communist dictatorship where in phony election the leader gets 100 % vote. Only people with agenda will make this into an article.

This Ansari fellow left me amused. For someone gripped by fear and threat, the first instinct should be to move his family to a safe place. Instead, I got to know that he moved alone to Poschim Bongo, got some freebies, made his money, and joined his family back in Gujarat. So, Either he is lying about the sense of fear that continues to haunt him, or he is an extremely irresponsible familyman.

And, he looks quite plump now. Are his chins still carrying those rosogullas that Buddhadev gifted him?

This Ansari fellow left me amused. For someone gripped by fear and threat, the first instinct should be to move his family to a safe place. Instead, I got to know that he moved alone to Poschim Bongo, got some freebies, made his money, and joined his family back in Gujarat. So, Either he is lying about the sense of fear that continues to haunt him, or he is an extremely irresponsible familyman.

And, he looks quite plump now. Are his chins still carrying those rosogullas that Buddhadev gifted him?

You can write this kind of article for anyone. Just pick up any 4/5 people with dissenting voice and report it. Modi is no different than any democratic leader. It is democracy and some communist dictatorship where in phony election the leader gets 100 % vote. Only people with agenda will make this into an article.

The good news for you is that there are 20 plus states in india not ruled by BJP/NDA. So there should be no malnutrition , no sexual violence right? So if that is the case, can you give us hard data on this? or else, admit that you are JUST ANOTHER SHAMELESS LIAR of the SAINT SONIA CULT THAT HAS DESTROYED INDIA THROUGH 50 PLUS YEARS OF MISRULE.

Qutubuddin Ansari, if you are really honest and innocent guy (That you potray yourself as) why dont you tell us as to why, you did not settle in that SOCIALIST,SECULAR PARADISE of West Bengal that is home to the most prosperious Muslim Minority community in India?

I was missing Gujarat. Moreover, I didn’t want my children to grow away from their state, and with bad perceptions about it. For my family, it was like Partition; I have seen how people affected by it still live with pain and a sense of disconnect. I never wanted the same for my children..

Here is an account of his meeting the photographer who clicked that shot --

"I feel very bad, very sorry to hear that my pictures caused so much problems for you. I apologise," Arko tells Mr Ansari, as we settle down in his home in a slum, not far away from the house with the veranda.

Mr Ansari is sitting opposite him, and his eyes drop to the floor for a moment.

"Nobody is to blame, brother," he tells Arko. "You did your job. I was doing mine, trying to save my life. Your picture showed the world what was happening here. What happened to me eventually was kismet, destiny."

"And as things stand, my life is on the mend. I have a beautiful family, I have work, I have my own little home."

A few years ago, Mr Ansari bought a two-room tenement with a small tailoring shop for 315,000 rupees ($6,400; £4,000) from his paltry savings and loans from friends and family. It is a modest home with a raised bed, a television, a few utensils, a shiny red refrigerator and a washing machine tucked away behind a curtain. Upstairs, he and his co-workers stitch more 100 shirts a week, and he earns up to 7,000 rupees ($142; £90) a month www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-17150859

People like Ramki & Anwaar Always Thrive on Little Known or the Facts that suits their petty Purpose I hope that they will Never rest in Peace Since Modi has always been some one who could not succumb to their "Bad dua", After all Millions have Nationalist Pray for him

It is a curious matter indeed. I am not sure if women are really more religious or there might be other motivations.

Women instinctively prefer alpha males; for obvious reasons and that puts competitive pressure among men. Men in turn create religions for the fear of survival and for mutually beneficial cooperation (at least among men).

So long as such a cooperation is tangible and results in economic success, women would not only tolerate religion but may even encourage it (notwithstanding all the idiocy associated with it).

We being part of animal kingdom, forces of evolution has to work on us too.

Now if majority of women were Meg Whitman style republican business executives, then men would get a taste of a different kind of religion :)

This article was not in good taste and in no way promotes amity ,infact such articles will only galvanise the already polarised electorate to become radicals.

The fact is the man has won thrice and in true democratic spirit accept it.

It can not be anyone's claim that law courts should be replaced by electoral processes. No wonder with this sort of reasoning floating around, criminals are flocking to political parties. In fact Veerappan had political dreams.

Infact,it is the faith in judiciary getting to the offenders which is the surest bulwark against radicalization. This is not to discount the need to analyze other roots of radicalization, and to take remedial measures.

Sophia Khan says she can't understand why women like Modi, clearly implying her question is why some women like Modi as she clearly does not like him. Now Outlook Forum "experts" on women can generalize on the basis of no experience and clear evidence to the contrary in this forum (ME)--

ANWAAR>> "Women throughout history have adored people who oppressed them."
ANWAAR >>"All religions have oppressed women and yet women have always been more religious than men."

RAPE IN DELH I!!!!!!!! Must be under a BJP be CM? ----------- NO !!!!! Is DELHI ruled by Congress CM and Delhi Police controlled by Congress UPA GOVT???? ----- Hey- then it can NOT be rape. --------------------- get TEHALKA to do a sting operation OR shall we have Banerjee Commission to disprove that RAPE OCCURED?

It is a well known fact that gender is just one of the influencing but not only influencing factor in democracies, when it comes to voting patterns.

The women of Gujarat may be women, may be having all the problems faced by women on this planet but merely because they share the gender that professional pseudo intellectuals like A.Roy have, that doesnt mean their brains are also programmed to accept same pseudo intellectual garbage.

Women in Gujarat are impressed by the fast urbanisation, improving infrastructure (roads, electricity ) and complete existence of law and order in the state and hence have voted (more than upper caste men) for Modi.

And this is not an exception. Across the world, women more than men give importance to voting for such leaders who work to establish the "Rule of the Law".

In west (US/Europe/Australia) women tend to vote more for liberals (Democrats and like) because the rule of law is not a concern there (right and left parties both enforce the rule of law equally) and so women focus on voting more left/liberal since such parties promise more welfarism (Whether that is sustainable is a different thing).

But outside the welfare states of US/Europe/Australia, women clearly prefer strong rulers who deliver out of anarchy.

And contrary to what pseudo intellectuals like A.Roy preach, anarchism is extremely unfriendly to the fairer sex. Somalia, which is perhaps the perfect example of a nation state practising anarchy is one of the worst places to live for a woman. Read this:

The undeniable fact is Mr Ansari could not lead his livelihood in Leftist paradise of West Bengal but is able to lead a normal life in the evil, worse than somalia Indian state of Gujarat ruled by devil Namo tells that reality is not the black and white movie of hero vs villain that the left liberals of India like to potray.

Curse what you want, but the greatness of Namo Rule is that the rule of law is now established fully and people like Ansari lead their lives in peace.

And yes, the rule of law did not prevail in feb 2002 but so what, it did not prevail for 19 months in 1975-77 yet we have allowed the folks responsible for that to rule us much of our lives from 1980.

There is a limit to fear mongering about Modi ruled gujarat and we have long crossed that limit.

"The undeniable fact is Mr Ansari could not lead his livelihood in Leftist paradise of West Bengal"

Whenever the name West Bengal figures in any article only picture appears before my eyes is of Movie "Do Bigah Jamin" in which BalRam Sahani is shown looking at his deserted farm and in another part running with auto puller....

Looks like our Hero Ansari didnt wanted to do what Balram Shani did in Do Bigah Jamin. After all he took wise discission of coming back.

Well, the Sophia Khans and Sarojas need more than Arjun Modhvadias. Over the years I have seen how people build up leaders, projected personas on leaders - whether it was firm decisive Indira."modern" Rajiv, "secular, mandal messiah" VP Singh, "erudite polyglot Narasimha Rao, poet PM Vajpayee, economist Manmohan Singh etc. (Janata Party rule and the reigns of Chandrashekhar, Deve Gowda or IK Gujral have not invited serious projections, I wonder why). Of late this hunt for leader has gone out of the rulers to likes of Anna Hazares and Kejriwals....

Democracy in its true spirit is more than one person- one vote. What in its negative aspects is seen as "minorityism", is something sought to be institutionalised when proportional representation system is advocated. The fact is in proportional representation system, Sophia Khans and Sarojas will never be marginalised as they are today, but on the flip side, Modis will never be kicked out.

The Sophia Khans and Sarojas realise the beauty of our parliamentary system and have decided that they will speak out, intelligently, if only to defend the honour of people who are too busy to counter the systematic calumny against them.

To some extent, even modern democracy tries to strike balance with its constitutions and consitutional amendments, and checks and balances while depending heavily on individuals to keep moving with times and interpret the law in spirit, not just in letter and change them when necessary. Case in point would be the liberal (so called activist judges) and conservative (literalists) wings of the US Supreme Court bench.

We don't want suave secular generals and foot soldiers to just follow the orders again, do we?

>>The fact is in proportional representation system, Sophia Khans and Sarojas will never be marginalised as they are today, but on the flip side, Modis will never be kicked out.

In a purported democracy where all branches of government and media have been represented by a 5% of the population, proportional representation would be a welcome change but then I hope Sophia Khans and Sarojas stick around to welcome the dark underbelly of our secular democracy with open arms.

When the issue of women's reservation was deservedly brought to the floor of the parliament, there was a demand to include women from all social classes and that was promptly rejected by Brinda Karat (an otherwise progressive leader) among others and poor Sharad Yadav kept hectoring for it. So much for proportional representation.

>> have decided that they will speak out,

It should be the duty of the judicial system to ensure that this right is not encroached upon and same right has be extended to Modis and Moditvawadis.

As Noam Chomsky succinctly said

If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all.

But, when same judiciary repeatedly fails to bring any justice to the victims of violence or tragedy like Bhopal, that sure seems like a tall order.

Why don't we start with modest proposals

(1) Right to life and property for all citizens (special protection necessary for minorities and downtrodden)

(2) Proportional representation across all sections of society so they can keep watchful eye on (1)

>> What in its negative aspects is seen as "minorityism", is something sought to be institutionalised when proportional representation system is advocated

Eh?

Proportional representation system is exactly opposite to what some people (usually sickos) like to call the "Idea of India".

Amusing to see someone like you advocate it. Haven't we already had a partition based largely on this idea?

And while we are at it, what would be the basis of this system? How will this proportion be determined? Religion, caste, gender, race, economic status?

Will we restrict religion to the major ones (usually Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Sikhs), or fine tune it more to include divisions like Buddhists, Jains, or Shia, Sunni or Akalis/Nirankaris/Namdharis? Will it be further subdivided, say, Digambars and Shwetambars? What about sects like Bohras or Ahmadiyas?

When it comes to caste, do you want to restrict to four major caste groups, or have proportional representation for thousands of castes? Would like to see the secular viewpoint on the details of this proposal.

I am not for proportional representation because of the role it played in the rise and success of Hitler.

>>the dark underbelly of our secular democracy

That is what we have been facing over our entire adult life, but proportional representation system will be regressive. About women's reservation bill, see I have kept silent. But reservation for women in local bodies has resulted in greater participation of women in local matters. That will result in lasting changes than resevation for Lok sabha seats.

About Modis and Moditvavadis, can't you hear the din? Who is denying their right to speech? I am for intellectuals for tackling them. But intellectuals can't provide the circus you know. And intellectuals have doubts and self doubts.

I am not sure whether there is something like preventive detention in US. In India it is effectively used. In 2002 this preventive detention of possible trouble makers in Mumbai resulted in Gujarat 2002 being confined to Gujarat.

I have had a whole army of friends and colleagues quoting Voltaire endlessly in early 1990s. None of them stepped out of the security of their cocoons to counter the violence which was the result of hate speech that was Ayodhya movement. At least now they do not quote Voltaire.

Well, Madhu Kishwar is now in disgrace, but I have always found her thought provoking. May be you can have a look at the following. I am not necessarily endorsing it - www.manushi.in/blog_content.php

>> "The Sophia Khans and Sarojas realise the beauty of our parliamentary system and have decided that they will speak out, intelligently, if only to defend the honour of people who are too busy to counter the systematic calumny against them." - Saroja

This one takes the cake on these jokers claiming self-righteousness. Yes madam, the rest of use are evil zombies out on the streets to gobble anything that moves and breathes. And, these zombies get doubly enraged if the target smells of minority or shudra. If not for the assorted stalwarts like you and Sophia, the country would have been erased from the globe. We are all thankful for the sacrifices you make for us every day every hour.

>> "Proportional representation across all sections of society..." - Hitesh

Yes. I mean, by ALL (cross-)sections: race, religion, caste, gender....

Let us try doing something that no sane country in the billion years' history of of this earth has ever atempted to do. Even if we don't succeed, we would let the world know that human stupidity is indeed infinite.

Sorry if I misunderstood. But frankly, with your blabbering and changing the subject with virtually every sentence, you are not very coherent. Let's examine your statements in the current post itself.

>> because of the role it played in the rise and success of Hitler

I don't know what role it played there, but otherwise, would you have been for it?

>> About Modis and Moditvavadis, can't you hear the din? Who is denying their right to speech?

I don't know what the above is in response to. I didn't talk about FOE anywhere in my post. Again, lack of coherence.

>> I am not sure whether there is something like preventive detention in US.

Again.

>> I have had a whole army of friends and colleagues quoting Voltaire endlessly in early 1990s

Again.

>> Well, Madhu Kishwar is now in disgrace

And yet again. This article is not about Madhu Kishwar. And of course, my views on her latest article are different from yours. If both of us are willing, we can discuss them there.

My post was about proportional representation, which I mistakenly thought you were proposing. Apologies for that. If you are not doing that (though ostensibly, your reasons are different), I have nothing to debate on this issue.

Hitler came to power with minority vote share because of the failure of the mainstream parties. He subsequently sabotaged the constitution and hijacked the government because of the failure of the judiciary.

>>That is what we have been facing over our entire adult life,

No, we have not been "facing" it, we have been hiding it.

>>But reservation for women in local bodies has resulted in greater participation of women in local matters. That will result in lasting changes than resevation for Lok sabha seats.

there are no good arguments against either, especially in India.

Surprisingly, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Bangladesh are all ahead in this regard.

>>Let us try doing something that no sane country in the billion years' history of of this earth has ever atempted to do

"Democracy" itself came after "billion years" history of this earth, that too in fits and starts; gradually extending from Lords and Noblemen to non-property holders, women and blacks, browns and others.

If it has taken us "billion years" of history to recognise each as an equally worthy human being, then "human stupidity is indeed infinite".

That is an unfair charge. I am for women to fight for and get their rights and not for everything to be handed in a platter. I may not like a future where women speak for women and men speak for men, We have seen the consequences of separate electorates. About proportional representation, we should not learn from others'experience? Yes Hitler came to power because of failure of mainstream paries. Can't always expect mainstream parties to be squeaky clean. That does not mean that one condones takeover by some dictator.

Preventive detention is for a few hours, a day or two. It is not to be confused with detentions under various terror laws. It is effectively used to let hot heads cool down a bit during periods of tension.

In India, preventive detention can be extended for only three months. After three months, such a case is brought before an advisory board for review. In India, this is given in the Constitution of India under Right to Freedom, a Fundamental Right.

In the United States, the Sixth Amendment to the United States Constitution guarantees the right to "a speedy and public trial". Thus, arrested persons may not be held for extended periods of time without trial.
In late June 2009, United States President Barack Obama was reported to have been considering indefinite preventive detention for some Guantanamo captives

------------------------------------------------------

I won't enjoy being detained: but in a riot like situation, I will be more understanding.

Hitesh Brahmbhatt >> (1) Right to life and property for all citizens (special protection necessary for minorities and downtrodden)

Can you please define minorities? Why is that religion should be the only criteria to define minorities? If I am a Hindu by birth but atheist in practise, or if i am a Hindu Upper caste Indian from South India who does not speak or know Hindi, I should be considered as a minority too. Why I am i excluded?

Hitesh Brahmbhatt >> (2) Proportional representation across all sections of society so they can keep watchful eye on (1)

I do agree in principle on this but how do we define the sections? Do we define only by caste? Or by gender ? Or by occupation/class? If we agree to this principle, we should also agree to remove the concept of Government and President nominating some people of eminence to Rajya sabha, thereby allowing a select professional elite to collaborate with establishment to promote anti people agenda (.like they did in FDI retail voting)

Hitesh Brahmbhatt >> (3) One person, one vote but in reversal of Boston Tea party slogan No representation, if Tax evasion.

Again an excellent idea. But tell me, why is it that in india , only 3% of Indians are paying income tax? Why is that we have legal sanction where entire sections of society, including landlords owning 100 acres, cultivating tobacco in Coastal AP pay no income tax? Shoudl they also be disenfranchised? Any thoughts

R Saroja >> I am not for proportional representation because of the role it played in the rise and success of Hitler.

I am a right of center conservative Hindu and I intensely hate Hitler, the Nazis and their genocidal war. But I am also reasonable in demanding that history is seen not in a black and white perspective but in shades of grey. Unfortunately people with left liberal ideologies in India simply refuse to see anything in polychromatic format and always tend to create historical narratives in terms of Good Guy Vs Evil guy. And that wont work since life is never so simple.

To say that Hitler rose to power due to Proportional representation is nothing but extreme act of delusion that chooses to ignore the circumstances that drove the Nazification of Germany in 1920s and 1930s. And these are:

1. The Post WW1 treaty that made the victors (specifically France) demand huge bucks from the loser (Germany) in such unfair terms that made an entire hard working industrial nation pauperized in short time..

2. The external economic developments particularly the Great Depression in US and the preceding loose money policies by the incompetent pre Hitler german leadership that destroyed a prosperous, industrial nation, recovering from WW1 and made millions starve to penury..

3. The role played by victors (Britain in particular) in villainising the narrative in continental europe and also using the opportunity to build a dissatisfied germany busy with a nationalist versus socialist divide to keep germany as a effective line of defence from the perceived threat of Stalinism and Leninism from Moscow..

4. Anti semitism has 2000 year history before Hitler was even born. Google Dreyfus affair to learn more. The just demand for a separate homeland for Jews of Europe to escape centuries of rampant persecution from the largely christian white europe was not understood nor given the right shape by powers who won the World war and that fuelled the crisis by no small measure.

I could go on and on, but the blood of the dead jews in concentration camps lies not only on Hitler and his cult but also on the french and british nations which shaped the Hitlerite Germany from outside.

But history is always written by winners and as someone on winning side in WW1, WW2 and Cold war, history has always written to praise and favour the british and french. And that is just doctored history.

PS - Just as an aside, I am not hugely in favour of proportional representatiion , but that is for different reasons , not because we will get a hitler and 6 million dead minorities in India (as some leftists scare monger us about).

Hitesh Brahmbhatt >> "Democracy" itself came after "billion years" history of this earth, that too in fits and starts; gradually extending from Lords and Noblemen to non-property holders, women and blacks, browns and others.

So you are right, we have had a billion years of history on earth (with living creatures) and we have had democracy (again only to 60% or so of people on this planet) for just last 30-50 years..

Even a 100 years is just a puny fraction of One billion, meaning it is too early to say if democracy as an idea is sustainable over a long duration of humanity (say 1 million years from now? and ah 1 million is also just 0.1% of 1 billion !!)

And more so that given we have something called welfare state that is what democracy is really about in much of world today, is this sustainable in a world with limited resources?

>>sustainable over a long duration of humanity (say 1 million years from now?

So, attempting to educate, include and empower as much of humanity as possible is a "stupendous act of infinite stupidity" while pondering over what is sustainable million years from now is "enlightened thinking"?

>>welfare state that is what democracy is really about in much of world today, is this sustainable in a world with limited resources?

World has barely had full awareness of legal and political rights in past 50-60 years, let alone "welfare" state unless you are talking about wall street bankers.

>>if i am a Hindu Upper caste Indian from South India who does not speak or know Hindi, I should be considered as a minority too. Why I am i excluded?

Why would you be excluded? even if you were an Italian from a prominent Indian political family who spoke only a little hindi :)

>>we should also agree to remove the concept of Government and President nominating some people of eminence to Rajya sabha,

This is a relict of British colonial times much like most of the civil service bureacracy. US Senate was also originally conceived along the same lines but now is a fully elected body.

US goes to the other extreme where local judges, sheriffs, district attorneys and other law enforcement officials are also elected. Merit of trial by jury of one's peers is also debatable (that is how most of the so-called victimless white collar crime goes unpunished or underpunshished)

There is a room for improvement everywhere.

>>Should they also be disenfranchised?

In my opinion, if you don't put your money where your mouth is then you loose all claims to it. In most of the western world, despite many legal tax loopholes, outright tax evasion like it is practiced in India is a serious offense, although not punishable by loss of citizenship.

So Kutubuddin Ansari is back in Gujrat. Khali baton se pet nahin bharta and Mr Ansari has realized it while living in West Bengal. Hope everyone realizes it that by electing UPA we are slowly moving towards bankruptcy, the corrupt congressi and their allies are filling their pockets. This needs to stop now.

Proportional representation in Italy led to proportional sharing of loot by politicians (like Congress and BJP despite the noise they make against each other). That was the scandal in the 1990s I think. Italians have brought about some changes in their system since then I understand.

About the proportional representation, OMG! The disaster that is waiting to happen in Egypt! Just see the extremists (Nour Party) will piggy ride on moderates( Muslim Brotherhood). They have proportional representation system. I want to be proved wrong

>>Italians have brought about some changes in their system since then I understand.

It is now ruled by technocracy of ex-Goldmanite Mario Draghi communicating and enforcing ECB/banker's demands to Mario Monti, which now has that buffoon Silvio Berlusconi clamoring for Italy to leave Euro; which I think they (and Greece, Portugal, Spain, Ireland, Estonia and few other countries) should do regardless.

>>Just see the extremists (Nour Party) will piggy ride on moderates( Muslim Brotherhood). They have proportional representation system.

This is a well criticized byline of the western "fine print" on democracy.

Speaking on the hypocrisy of the US administration towards democracy in the Arab World, Chomsky gave an example of the US and Israel’s punishment of Gaza “for using democracy” to elect a Hamas government.

Chomsky described the 2006 elections in Gaza as “the first real free election in the Arab World.” However, because its results did not appeal to the US and Israel, a coup was attempted against the elected government in 2007.

After Hamas succeeded in taking over the Gaza Strip, a blockade was enforced on the enclave by both Egypt and Israel.

“The Western attitude towards democracy: It is fine as long as its outcome is the one we want,” added Chomsky.

"For the West, the most important states are the oil dictatorships. Their democratic uprisings were squashed with Western help."

"The US does not want policies in Arab countries which reflect public opinion."

Making stupid meaningless remark is not "engaging". You can try, but so far you haven't given any evidence of competence.

>> Saroja sure has lot more tolerance for insipid drivel than I do

She is a lot more honest too. That's something you can learn from her.

>> so I try to be brief.

Lack of words should not suggest lack of thoughts or intelligence. Unfortunately in your case, the shortness of both stands out.

And finally, I don't know why she started talking about "proportional representation". I regard everyone who believes in it as a moron. Am willing to "engage" with them, if I think they can produce an intelligent thought from time to time.

>>>This is a well criticized byline of the western "fine print" on democracy.

I was not aware of that. I am not criticizing democracy, but the proportional representation system.

And I am not going to go into the merits of proportional representation system in theory without going through it in practice. I think some time back, in UK someone (may be Govt. appointed one) did a study of proportional representation for UK. Whai I will do is compile various studies and post a link.

Reg proportional representation, I am not a great advocate, not for reasons you suggested byt something even more basic -

All, I repeat all Indian political parties (including the favourite AAP) , except BJP and Left parties are essentially one person or one family shows and ideology is compromised (AAP may be an exception) at the altar of power.

AAP and JDU are reasonably non feudal and not family run parties but even they are run by whims and fancies of one supreme leader.

The BJP and Left are hated for different reasons which may or maynot be right but both are commendable in that they have not become one person or one family shows. Even a BJP Under Modi will not be able to make it a one person show (Modi cannot say remove a Shivraj Chauhan at his whim or will). To some extent Left , has to accomodate a achuthanandan despite what his factional rival wanted...

Given this, we need strong measures to remove the rampant feudalism in indian political parties - starting with the party that has ruled and been ruling India for 56 years.

Some strong laws that prevent family members of a political leader from entering politics without "direct mandate" and laws that prevent a leader from serving more than 3 terms in any political office (like in US) should be brought here. And all these IMHO are greater priority than bringing proportional representation.

PS - BTW it is not understood that one social group that will immensely benefit from Prop Representation will be the Muslims. They can then set their own conservative political party and simply target to get their 15-20% vote share and then bargain with rest. (Not that it will really benefit muslims - history shows how middlemen in minority religions always make decisions in self interest and not in common interest). And Contrary to what you think Conservative Right wing sanghi Hindus will not benefit from Prop representation in any manner.

Lol! All this while, we saw a deluge of links from Manushi seen as an authority on all issues. The moment Kishwar writes something unpalatable to our liberals, she becomes a disgrace! Our liberals would make a good case study.

One person wins an election and you will be surprised to see the outpouring of wisdom from liberal circles. The election was apparently fought on peace, governance and development but liberals conclude:

1) Both Congress and BJP are same!
2) There is peace because rioters are in the government and minorities are shit scared. For such people an example of minorities not living in fear is UP where we saw more than 100 riots since seculars formed the government.
3) Women like alpha males! Modi is such a moron focusing on development and governance for all these years.

>Lol! All this while, we saw a deluge of links from Manushi seen as an authority on all issues. The moment Kishwar writes something unpalatable to our liberals, she becomes a disgrace! Our liberals would make a good case study.

I have no disagreement over her criticism over media etc. Media coverage often lacks depth. Actually. I practically don't watch TV, because of its lack of depth and shoutings and posturings. Where I disagree with Madhu is over

He is alleged to be a man with a fascist mindset with Muslims of Gujarat supposedly living as an endangered minority in perpetual fear and insecurity. Interestingly this charge is most loudly and aggressively levelled by NGO activists who have received massive support—financial material and political form the Congress party and its governments as well as powerful international donor agencies.

The funding is in the public domain and is no secret. Here I have tried to assemble available material regarding Communalism Combat in public domain hope-and-hope.blogspot.in/2012/12/the-case-against-teesta-setalvad-funding.html . One of the other NGOs active in Gujarat cases is Mukul and Nirjari Sinha's Jan Sangharsh Manch formed explicitly to fight for the riot victims and they have also taken up the cases of encounter killings.Their work in analysind the CD's of call records was cruicial in nailing down the offenders in Naroda Patiya case.

May be Gujarat is a land of milk and honey for muslims and may be Madhu Kishwar will confirm it for us when she visits Gujarat next month. The issue as far as riot industry sickulars is concerned is over justice to victims and survivors of Gujarat 2002. Teesta and Co started their activism with Bombay riots, starting Communalism Combat in 1993. I respect the activists for sticking to their agenda, especially in face of calls for amnesia. To get the perspective right, the one man mission of H.S.Phoolka to get justice for Sikh victims of 1984, has been extremely appreciative of the acievements of Gujarat riot industry sickular activists.

I have learnt a lot from Madhu Kishwar's writings and continue to remain her admirer. I have never been anybody's chamcha. Even in this piece of writing she makes many important points. But she can ask herself, how Gandhi would have acted in a similar situation - Would he have been piqued by a snub in a TV debate? Even this article of hers, could she have not written it unemotionally and made a much stronger impact ?

Kishwar never said it's secret. She said they received funds, they agree they received funds, you agree they received funds.

It seems to me that everyone agrees that Teesta and Javed received funds from foreign donors and Congress. One can disagree whether it was ethical for them to receive these while talking against Modi, but how does stating a fact that everyone agrees on disgrace Kishwar?

>> To get the perspective right, the one man mission of H.S.Phoolka to get justice for Sikh victims of 1984, has been extremely appreciative of the acievements of Gujarat riot industry sickular activists.

Don't know about you or Phoolka, but I would find it crude to accept money from the perpetrators of 84, while claiming to fight communal violence, particularly of the state sponsored variety.

Maybe for Teesta, any Green is good Green, as long as it is not Saffron tainted.

>>To get the perspective right, the one man mission of H.S.Phoolka to get justice for Sikh victims of 1984, has been extremely appreciative of the acievements of Gujarat riot industry sickular activists.

Phoolka is not accused of being funded by BJP or Ford foundation, or of filing false affidavits, or of illegally digging up graves, or conniving with rogue Delhi cops, leader of opposition and unscrupulous journalists to frame a democratically elected CM.

I had seen on TV , woman being interviewed in Gujarat city like Surat and Ahmedabad. It is also true all were Telugu speaking woman. But what they say is also very important because they are far away from home , Hyderabad and other districts like Karimnagar or Vijayawada. And most of them belong to weavers community, certainly not rich people who could have some influence.

During riots (10 years ago) some hundreds of weavers who went to Gujarat cloth exhibition lost everything and came back to Hyderabad with their life.
They are saying now that people here ( in Surat for example ) are afraid to look at woman. There is no eve teasing at all. So they feel safe.

I do not think one motivated lawyer woman's opinion should be taken seriously.

"Have a look at in.news.yahoo.com/sc-slams-gujarat-govt-for-case-against-teesta-.html and hope-and-hope.blogspot.in/2012/11/the-case-against-teesta-setalvad_15.html"

Hope you remember Mami Some time back I posted a link of letter written by Justice Soni to CJI where he has highlighted how Justice Aftab Alam deals with Gujarat case.

Now court says this is "fervolous" when after hearing the argument on both side? Why cant he say it on day one itslef looks like this judge thinks he can fool people of this nation just because 90% are fool (As per Genius Sir Katju)

Now question is not of state govt credit (As per secu's Guj Govt is Creditless) but whether she made to digg the Pandarpur Grave or not?

Now court will not listen to Raiz Khan as he has no love left for Teesta. Why?

I read many news sources no where court has slamed this Khan saying he has provided false information to court but every court admitted that grave digging took place, here also we can see Justice Aftab slams Gujarat Govt but not Khan for acting at behest of Teesta..So unauthorised digging of grave is Ok for this Judge...

Even court had the full authority to quash this FIR but left to Gujarat Counsel to decide on it why cant they do it when they can acquit someone they can do this as well but refrained from doing this?

Atleast please read what you copy pasted once, even a layman like me in law subject can understand the attitude of this Judge can't you?

What was the purpose of Soni's letter except to get Justice Alam out of Gujarat related cases in Supreme Court? Why did he not file a PIL? Fear of censure from SC? So the letter. As I had shown in my analysis, the letter was frivolous.

No wonder a suitable replacement of Soni as Lokayukta could not be found.

Can you explain to us why grave digging (done by the relatives of those who were buried there) was wrong? All the details of the case are in the link that I had provided

What was the purpose of Soni's letter except to get Justice Alam out of Gujarat related cases in Supreme Court? Why did he not file a PIL? Fear of censure from SC? So the letter. As I had shown in my analysis, the letter was frivolous

Mami please read that letter again I would request you....Censur from what SC? dont forget if he wanted he would have gone to media first garner as much support from Gujarati's and other people for exposing this Aftab Alam and his attitude towards Gujarat this would have boiled the country agains and this time judiciary would have been divided on lines of communal the way Kejriwal does and then he would have approached court but he didn't do so why?

PIL for what to tell fellow Judge is not in terms with Law don't this Aftab and CJI understand this? Are they kid? Rest history has answer in itself Hindus have stood behind somone who stood for them and this case would not have been different belive me...

"Can you explain to us why grave digging (done by the relatives of those who were buried there) was wrong? All the details of the case are in the link that I had provided"

Court too has agreed that action by Teesta is gross negligence thats why Law still hold her guilty and asking Gujarat to take back FIR..why dont Aftab quahed FIR then and there itself?

"No wonder a suitable replacement of Soni as Lokayukta could not be found."

If Gujarat Govt wanted Soni as a replacment or he wanted it then Soni names would have figured as front runner for 2nd turn but it didnt? Why?

After all Soni was among 90% becuase he trusted Judiciary better he should have gone to media first and expose Aftab...

>>>After all Soni was among 90% becuase he trusted Judiciary better he should have gone to media first and expose Aftab...

Just type Justice Soni Justice Alam and google it. You will get all mirror sites without one iota of critical thinking. But what a cackle they provide! Soni can still go to media.Infact everyone should publicize Soni's letter. My blog had completely analysed Soni's letter and Alam's speech. More people will start doing that with more publicity...

So you think our main stream english didn't had this information, why they didn't debated it? Debate it let see how country reacts to it...When we can debate Madras High Court Judge letter to CJI why can't this?

"Just type Justice Soni Justice Alam and google it"

First of all google is not at all required to prove that Teesta is guilty and Aftab is trying to protect her, if common sense is there that's enough to judge them.

Google is used by very high intellectual peopls on this earth and I am not among them, only crystal clear understanding is that Teesta must have been jailed by court for Pandarpur Grave digging.

"he objective is clear: to derail the ongoing justice process in the Supreme Court – where Modi’s own fate hangs in the balance – and the fast track courts in Gujarat – where nearly 350 accused, including many senior leaders of the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) and the Bajrang Dal, face the prospect of conviction and long years in prison."

Atleast Modi fate hangs in balance but this NGO cottage industries in hanging umbalance. tried to implicate Tagodia, jay Patel and Modi miserabley failed to do so becuase lie after lie cant be made it as a Truth that this NGO's has to understand.

Now Mami make sure you read next time what you copy paste dont do in haste..

Your proudly said why dead body should not be digged right? Then prove that they are relaives but they dont do so

Your own admission: -

"January 2, 2006: With a view to preventing them from cooperating with the CBI in giving blood samples, etc for the DNA tests, the Lunawada police register an FIR against the relatives of the deceased, charging them with illegal digging of the bodies."

A Bold women Teestas whom you call as a saviour of minorities all of sudden become "Abbala Nari" of this country and wants investiagtion to be done in Mumabi..Why? Rest we all saw how she was romanticising with SIT when SIT called Modi for enquiry and almost on all news channel she kept on saying next step of SIT would be to file FIR against Modi but what happned Blued Eyed SIT turned out to be enemy No-1...

"March 18, 2011: The investigating officer issues summons under Section 160 of the CrPC, asking Setalvad to be present at the Lunawada police station on March 25. Setalvad replies, requesting the investigating officer to consider the provision of Section 160 of the CrPC which specifies that being a woman, her statement as a witness was required to be recorded at her residence, in Mumbai. "

Now except

March 3, 2002 where Gujarati News Paper repoted killing incident and October 29, 2002 court acquits them...Rest all the Date and Year points finger at Teesta and Raiz Khan for digging the grave.

"through its order of May 27, the Gujarat high court quashed the charge sheet that had named Setalvad as an “absconding accused”. "

But this doesn't quashes her guilty nor acquits her of charges framed against her only she is no more an absconding as per Gujarat High Court

"Subsequently you know of Supreme Court's ruling".

Thats why Aftab asks Gujarat Govt take back FIR..But charges framed against her still remain intact.

1>> accused of being funded by BJP<<
>>>I thought it was Zahira Sheikh who was funded by Madhu Srivastav to the tune of Rs. 18 lakhs, if I am not mistaken, to lie. She spent time in jail for perjury.

We are talking about Phoolka. You compared Phoolka with Teesta as fighters of justice for riot victims. True to your style, you go into a tangent.

And since you brought up Zahira and Madhu Srivastava, the Tehelka sting clearly shows Srivastava saying that Zahira is asking for more as Teesta has offered her XXX. This sting which was subsequently suppressed conveniently escapes you.

>>I am maintaining a record of all cases against Teesta Setalvad hope-and-hope.blogspot.in/2012/10/the-cases-against-teesta-setalvad.html . This does not seem to figure there. Can you give the details?

//May be Gujarat is a land of milk and honey for muslims and may be Madhu Kishwar will confirm it for us when she visits Gujarat next month.//
This is typical of blinkered chavs.
If someone dislikes chocolate, they must love vanilla. If I dislike Snakes, I must love a mongoose.
Is it strawman season yet?
Gujarat is neither heaven or hell for muslims. It, however is a lot better for everyone than most indian large states with populations over 5 crore.

New Delhi: After Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi's hat-trick in the state assembly elections, Congress general secretary Digvijaya Singh Saturday accused the BJP of paying Rs 500 to each Muslim in the state to stop them from voting.

'This has been the BJP's strategy for the last 15-20 years. The BJP cadre and candidates fan out in Muslim-majority constituencies and enforce a lower voter turnout by buying them off. They blatantly distribute cash among the Muslim population and take away their voter ID cards, thus keeping them away from polling booths,' Singh told news channel Headlines Today in an interview.

'If you see the voting pattern in Muslim-dominated areas, the turnout is never more than 25-30 percent. Voters are bought over for as less as Rs.500. This is not a wild allegation. I have evidence and am saying it with full responsibility,' said Singh. According to Singh, the BJP swept 12 of the 19 constituencies in Gujarat where Muslims are in majority.''

'tea-stall attendant' explains the economic background...his family life over the last few decades gives away another aspect of his personality...economic deprivation and impotency have been known to create extreme rage in man...he tries hard to hide the rage held within...but the squeals, shrieks and shouts in his 'speech' betray his rage, every now and then.

the young who adore him know that there are good roads all over the country (atleast as good as a southern country can boast of)...its the blood-letting that he orchestrated that appeals to them.

Saifuddin >> the young who adore him know that there are good roads all over the country (atleast as good as a southern country can boast of)...its the blood-letting that he orchestrated that appeals to them.

Yes, there was no blood letting by your brothers in Kashmir valley since they preferred to wholescale deport people who lived before your brothers even arrived . And that is not rage in your world view. Such a predictable apologist for talibani fascism !!

"Women throughout history have adored people who oppressed them"- Anwaar.
What a macho and patronising comment? Has the Modi-hatred affected your mental balance? So you think the demonstrations in the 'Rape capital' are really outpouring of love and admiration? Disgusting!!

>>>> "Women throughout history have adored people who oppressed them"
>> What a macho and patronising comment?

It is the exact opposite. It is a crticism of women who uphold patriarchal supremacy. The second half of my comment referred to the fact that men-generated religions put women down, and yet women are for some reason more religious than men.

>>>> "Women throughout history have adored people who oppressed them"
>> What a macho and patronising comment?

It is the exact opposite. It is a crticism of women who uphold patriarchal supremacy.

Then your statement should have been "there are women who have adored people who oppressed them" or even better," there are folks who adored people who oppressed them". In fact there is something called Stolkholm syndrome.

Hitesh made an equally facile statement and retracted when pointed out. You could have done the same. Now you have become butt of a joke..

[[ 'tea-stall attendant' explains the economic background...his family life over the last few decades gives away another aspect of his personality...economic deprivation and impotency have been known to create extreme rage in man...he tries hard to hide the rage held within...but the squeals, shrieks and shouts in his 'speech' betray his rage, every now and then.]]

Extending your argument, since Muslims are one of the most deprived communities in India, does that explain the the impotency and extreme rage amongst Muslims, which causes them to riot at the drop of a hat?

This Ansari fellow left me amused. For someone gripped by fear and threat, the first instinct should be to move his family to a safe place. Instead, I got to know that he moved alone to Poschim Bongo, got some freebies, made his money, and joined his family back in Gujarat. So, Either he is lying about the sense of fear that continues to haunt him, or he is an extremely irresponsible familyman.

And, he looks quite plump now. Are his chins still carrying those rosogullas that Buddhadev gifted him?

The good news for you is that there are 20 plus states in india not ruled by BJP/NDA. So there should be no malnutrition , no sexual violence right? So if that is the case, can you give us hard data on this? or else, admit that you are JUST ANOTHER SHAMELESS LIAR of the SAINT SONIA CULT THAT HAS DESTROYED INDIA THROUGH 50 PLUS YEARS OF MISRULE.

Qutubuddin Ansari, if you are really honest and innocent guy (That you potray yourself as) why dont you tell us as to why, you did not settle in that SOCIALIST,SECULAR PARADISE of West Bengal that is home to the most prosperious Muslim Minority community in India?

You can write this kind of article for anyone. Just pick up any 4/5 people with dissenting voice and report it. Modi is no different than any democratic leader. It is democracy and some communist dictatorship where in phony election the leader gets 100 % vote. Only people with agenda will make this into an article.

//May be Gujarat is a land of milk and honey for muslims and may be Madhu Kishwar will confirm it for us when she visits Gujarat next month.//
This is typical of blinkered chavs.
If someone dislikes chocolate, they must love vanilla. If I dislike Snakes, I must love a mongoose.
Is it strawman season yet?
Gujarat is neither heaven or hell for muslims. It, however is a lot better for everyone than most indian large states with populations over 5 crore.

RAPE IN DELH I!!!!!!!! Must be under a BJP be CM? ----------- NO !!!!! Is DELHI ruled by Congress CM and Delhi Police controlled by Congress UPA GOVT???? ----- Hey- then it can NOT be rape. --------------------- get TEHALKA to do a sting operation OR shall we have Banerjee Commission to disprove that RAPE OCCURED?

>> "The Sophia Khans and Sarojas realise the beauty of our parliamentary system and have decided that they will speak out, intelligently, if only to defend the honour of people who are too busy to counter the systematic calumny against them." - Saroja

This one takes the cake on these jokers claiming self-righteousness. Yes madam, the rest of use are evil zombies out on the streets to gobble anything that moves and breathes. And, these zombies get doubly enraged if the target smells of minority or shudra. If not for the assorted stalwarts like you and Sophia, the country would have been erased from the globe. We are all thankful for the sacrifices you make for us every day every hour.

>>To get the perspective right, the one man mission of H.S.Phoolka to get justice for Sikh victims of 1984, has been extremely appreciative of the acievements of Gujarat riot industry sickular activists.

Phoolka is not accused of being funded by BJP or Ford foundation, or of filing false affidavits, or of illegally digging up graves, or conniving with rogue Delhi cops, leader of opposition and unscrupulous journalists to frame a democratically elected CM.

>> To get the perspective right, the one man mission of H.S.Phoolka to get justice for Sikh victims of 1984, has been extremely appreciative of the acievements of Gujarat riot industry sickular activists.

Don't know about you or Phoolka, but I would find it crude to accept money from the perpetrators of 84, while claiming to fight communal violence, particularly of the state sponsored variety.

Maybe for Teesta, any Green is good Green, as long as it is not Saffron tainted.

Kishwar never said it's secret. She said they received funds, they agree they received funds, you agree they received funds.

It seems to me that everyone agrees that Teesta and Javed received funds from foreign donors and Congress. One can disagree whether it was ethical for them to receive these while talking against Modi, but how does stating a fact that everyone agrees on disgrace Kishwar?

Lol! All this while, we saw a deluge of links from Manushi seen as an authority on all issues. The moment Kishwar writes something unpalatable to our liberals, she becomes a disgrace! Our liberals would make a good case study.

It is a well known fact that gender is just one of the influencing but not only influencing factor in democracies, when it comes to voting patterns.

The women of Gujarat may be women, may be having all the problems faced by women on this planet but merely because they share the gender that professional pseudo intellectuals like A.Roy have, that doesnt mean their brains are also programmed to accept same pseudo intellectual garbage.

Women in Gujarat are impressed by the fast urbanisation, improving infrastructure (roads, electricity ) and complete existence of law and order in the state and hence have voted (more than upper caste men) for Modi.

And this is not an exception. Across the world, women more than men give importance to voting for such leaders who work to establish the "Rule of the Law".

In west (US/Europe/Australia) women tend to vote more for liberals (Democrats and like) because the rule of law is not a concern there (right and left parties both enforce the rule of law equally) and so women focus on voting more left/liberal since such parties promise more welfarism (Whether that is sustainable is a different thing).

But outside the welfare states of US/Europe/Australia, women clearly prefer strong rulers who deliver out of anarchy.

And contrary to what pseudo intellectuals like A.Roy preach, anarchism is extremely unfriendly to the fairer sex. Somalia, which is perhaps the perfect example of a nation state practising anarchy is one of the worst places to live for a woman. Read this:

People like Ramki & Anwaar Always Thrive on Little Known or the Facts that suits their petty Purpose I hope that they will Never rest in Peace Since Modi has always been some one who could not succumb to their "Bad dua", After all Millions have Nationalist Pray for him

1>> accused of being funded by BJP<<
>>>I thought it was Zahira Sheikh who was funded by Madhu Srivastav to the tune of Rs. 18 lakhs, if I am not mistaken, to lie. She spent time in jail for perjury.

We are talking about Phoolka. You compared Phoolka with Teesta as fighters of justice for riot victims. True to your style, you go into a tangent.

And since you brought up Zahira and Madhu Srivastava, the Tehelka sting clearly shows Srivastava saying that Zahira is asking for more as Teesta has offered her XXX. This sting which was subsequently suppressed conveniently escapes you.

>>I am maintaining a record of all cases against Teesta Setalvad hope-and-hope.blogspot.in/2012/10/the-cases-against-teesta-setalvad.html . This does not seem to figure there. Can you give the details?

One person wins an election and you will be surprised to see the outpouring of wisdom from liberal circles. The election was apparently fought on peace, governance and development but liberals conclude:

1) Both Congress and BJP are same!
2) There is peace because rioters are in the government and minorities are shit scared. For such people an example of minorities not living in fear is UP where we saw more than 100 riots since seculars formed the government.
3) Women like alpha males! Modi is such a moron focusing on development and governance for all these years.

>> "Proportional representation across all sections of society..." - Hitesh

Yes. I mean, by ALL (cross-)sections: race, religion, caste, gender....

Let us try doing something that no sane country in the billion years' history of of this earth has ever atempted to do. Even if we don't succeed, we would let the world know that human stupidity is indeed infinite.

Saifuddin >> the young who adore him know that there are good roads all over the country (atleast as good as a southern country can boast of)...its the blood-letting that he orchestrated that appeals to them.

Yes, there was no blood letting by your brothers in Kashmir valley since they preferred to wholescale deport people who lived before your brothers even arrived . And that is not rage in your world view. Such a predictable apologist for talibani fascism !!

New Delhi: After Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi's hat-trick in the state assembly elections, Congress general secretary Digvijaya Singh Saturday accused the BJP of paying Rs 500 to each Muslim in the state to stop them from voting.

'This has been the BJP's strategy for the last 15-20 years. The BJP cadre and candidates fan out in Muslim-majority constituencies and enforce a lower voter turnout by buying them off. They blatantly distribute cash among the Muslim population and take away their voter ID cards, thus keeping them away from polling booths,' Singh told news channel Headlines Today in an interview.

'If you see the voting pattern in Muslim-dominated areas, the turnout is never more than 25-30 percent. Voters are bought over for as less as Rs.500. This is not a wild allegation. I have evidence and am saying it with full responsibility,' said Singh. According to Singh, the BJP swept 12 of the 19 constituencies in Gujarat where Muslims are in majority.''

I had seen on TV , woman being interviewed in Gujarat city like Surat and Ahmedabad. It is also true all were Telugu speaking woman. But what they say is also very important because they are far away from home , Hyderabad and other districts like Karimnagar or Vijayawada. And most of them belong to weavers community, certainly not rich people who could have some influence.

During riots (10 years ago) some hundreds of weavers who went to Gujarat cloth exhibition lost everything and came back to Hyderabad with their life.
They are saying now that people here ( in Surat for example ) are afraid to look at woman. There is no eve teasing at all. So they feel safe.

I do not think one motivated lawyer woman's opinion should be taken seriously.

"The undeniable fact is Mr Ansari could not lead his livelihood in Leftist paradise of West Bengal"

Whenever the name West Bengal figures in any article only picture appears before my eyes is of Movie "Do Bigah Jamin" in which BalRam Sahani is shown looking at his deserted farm and in another part running with auto puller....

Looks like our Hero Ansari didnt wanted to do what Balram Shani did in Do Bigah Jamin. After all he took wise discission of coming back.

The undeniable fact is Mr Ansari could not lead his livelihood in Leftist paradise of West Bengal but is able to lead a normal life in the evil, worse than somalia Indian state of Gujarat ruled by devil Namo tells that reality is not the black and white movie of hero vs villain that the left liberals of India like to potray.

Curse what you want, but the greatness of Namo Rule is that the rule of law is now established fully and people like Ansari lead their lives in peace.

And yes, the rule of law did not prevail in feb 2002 but so what, it did not prevail for 19 months in 1975-77 yet we have allowed the folks responsible for that to rule us much of our lives from 1980.

There is a limit to fear mongering about Modi ruled gujarat and we have long crossed that limit.

[[ 'tea-stall attendant' explains the economic background...his family life over the last few decades gives away another aspect of his personality...economic deprivation and impotency have been known to create extreme rage in man...he tries hard to hide the rage held within...but the squeals, shrieks and shouts in his 'speech' betray his rage, every now and then.]]

Extending your argument, since Muslims are one of the most deprived communities in India, does that explain the the impotency and extreme rage amongst Muslims, which causes them to riot at the drop of a hat?

"Women throughout history have adored people who oppressed them"- Anwaar.
What a macho and patronising comment? Has the Modi-hatred affected your mental balance? So you think the demonstrations in the 'Rape capital' are really outpouring of love and admiration? Disgusting!!

"he objective is clear: to derail the ongoing justice process in the Supreme Court – where Modi’s own fate hangs in the balance – and the fast track courts in Gujarat – where nearly 350 accused, including many senior leaders of the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) and the Bajrang Dal, face the prospect of conviction and long years in prison."

Atleast Modi fate hangs in balance but this NGO cottage industries in hanging umbalance. tried to implicate Tagodia, jay Patel and Modi miserabley failed to do so becuase lie after lie cant be made it as a Truth that this NGO's has to understand.

Now Mami make sure you read next time what you copy paste dont do in haste..

Your proudly said why dead body should not be digged right? Then prove that they are relaives but they dont do so

Your own admission: -

"January 2, 2006: With a view to preventing them from cooperating with the CBI in giving blood samples, etc for the DNA tests, the Lunawada police register an FIR against the relatives of the deceased, charging them with illegal digging of the bodies."

A Bold women Teestas whom you call as a saviour of minorities all of sudden become "Abbala Nari" of this country and wants investiagtion to be done in Mumabi..Why? Rest we all saw how she was romanticising with SIT when SIT called Modi for enquiry and almost on all news channel she kept on saying next step of SIT would be to file FIR against Modi but what happned Blued Eyed SIT turned out to be enemy No-1...

"March 18, 2011: The investigating officer issues summons under Section 160 of the CrPC, asking Setalvad to be present at the Lunawada police station on March 25. Setalvad replies, requesting the investigating officer to consider the provision of Section 160 of the CrPC which specifies that being a woman, her statement as a witness was required to be recorded at her residence, in Mumbai. "

Now except

March 3, 2002 where Gujarati News Paper repoted killing incident and October 29, 2002 court acquits them...Rest all the Date and Year points finger at Teesta and Raiz Khan for digging the grave.

"through its order of May 27, the Gujarat high court quashed the charge sheet that had named Setalvad as an “absconding accused”. "

But this doesn't quashes her guilty nor acquits her of charges framed against her only she is no more an absconding as per Gujarat High Court

"Subsequently you know of Supreme Court's ruling".

Thats why Aftab asks Gujarat Govt take back FIR..But charges framed against her still remain intact.

Making stupid meaningless remark is not "engaging". You can try, but so far you haven't given any evidence of competence.

>> Saroja sure has lot more tolerance for insipid drivel than I do

She is a lot more honest too. That's something you can learn from her.

>> so I try to be brief.

Lack of words should not suggest lack of thoughts or intelligence. Unfortunately in your case, the shortness of both stands out.

And finally, I don't know why she started talking about "proportional representation". I regard everyone who believes in it as a moron. Am willing to "engage" with them, if I think they can produce an intelligent thought from time to time.

R Saroja >> I am not for proportional representation because of the role it played in the rise and success of Hitler.

I am a right of center conservative Hindu and I intensely hate Hitler, the Nazis and their genocidal war. But I am also reasonable in demanding that history is seen not in a black and white perspective but in shades of grey. Unfortunately people with left liberal ideologies in India simply refuse to see anything in polychromatic format and always tend to create historical narratives in terms of Good Guy Vs Evil guy. And that wont work since life is never so simple.

To say that Hitler rose to power due to Proportional representation is nothing but extreme act of delusion that chooses to ignore the circumstances that drove the Nazification of Germany in 1920s and 1930s. And these are:

1. The Post WW1 treaty that made the victors (specifically France) demand huge bucks from the loser (Germany) in such unfair terms that made an entire hard working industrial nation pauperized in short time..

2. The external economic developments particularly the Great Depression in US and the preceding loose money policies by the incompetent pre Hitler german leadership that destroyed a prosperous, industrial nation, recovering from WW1 and made millions starve to penury..

3. The role played by victors (Britain in particular) in villainising the narrative in continental europe and also using the opportunity to build a dissatisfied germany busy with a nationalist versus socialist divide to keep germany as a effective line of defence from the perceived threat of Stalinism and Leninism from Moscow..

4. Anti semitism has 2000 year history before Hitler was even born. Google Dreyfus affair to learn more. The just demand for a separate homeland for Jews of Europe to escape centuries of rampant persecution from the largely christian white europe was not understood nor given the right shape by powers who won the World war and that fuelled the crisis by no small measure.

I could go on and on, but the blood of the dead jews in concentration camps lies not only on Hitler and his cult but also on the french and british nations which shaped the Hitlerite Germany from outside.

But history is always written by winners and as someone on winning side in WW1, WW2 and Cold war, history has always written to praise and favour the british and french. And that is just doctored history.

PS - Just as an aside, I am not hugely in favour of proportional representatiion , but that is for different reasons , not because we will get a hitler and 6 million dead minorities in India (as some leftists scare monger us about).

>> What in its negative aspects is seen as "minorityism", is something sought to be institutionalised when proportional representation system is advocated

Eh?

Proportional representation system is exactly opposite to what some people (usually sickos) like to call the "Idea of India".

Amusing to see someone like you advocate it. Haven't we already had a partition based largely on this idea?

And while we are at it, what would be the basis of this system? How will this proportion be determined? Religion, caste, gender, race, economic status?

Will we restrict religion to the major ones (usually Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Sikhs), or fine tune it more to include divisions like Buddhists, Jains, or Shia, Sunni or Akalis/Nirankaris/Namdharis? Will it be further subdivided, say, Digambars and Shwetambars? What about sects like Bohras or Ahmadiyas?

When it comes to caste, do you want to restrict to four major caste groups, or have proportional representation for thousands of castes? Would like to see the secular viewpoint on the details of this proposal.

I was missing Gujarat. Moreover, I didn’t want my children to grow away from their state, and with bad perceptions about it. For my family, it was like Partition; I have seen how people affected by it still live with pain and a sense of disconnect. I never wanted the same for my children..

Here is an account of his meeting the photographer who clicked that shot --

"I feel very bad, very sorry to hear that my pictures caused so much problems for you. I apologise," Arko tells Mr Ansari, as we settle down in his home in a slum, not far away from the house with the veranda.

Mr Ansari is sitting opposite him, and his eyes drop to the floor for a moment.

"Nobody is to blame, brother," he tells Arko. "You did your job. I was doing mine, trying to save my life. Your picture showed the world what was happening here. What happened to me eventually was kismet, destiny."

"And as things stand, my life is on the mend. I have a beautiful family, I have work, I have my own little home."

A few years ago, Mr Ansari bought a two-room tenement with a small tailoring shop for 315,000 rupees ($6,400; £4,000) from his paltry savings and loans from friends and family. It is a modest home with a raised bed, a television, a few utensils, a shiny red refrigerator and a washing machine tucked away behind a curtain. Upstairs, he and his co-workers stitch more 100 shirts a week, and he earns up to 7,000 rupees ($142; £90) a month www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-17150859

So Kutubuddin Ansari is back in Gujrat. Khali baton se pet nahin bharta and Mr Ansari has realized it while living in West Bengal. Hope everyone realizes it that by electing UPA we are slowly moving towards bankruptcy, the corrupt congressi and their allies are filling their pockets. This needs to stop now.

Hitesh Brahmbhatt >> (1) Right to life and property for all citizens (special protection necessary for minorities and downtrodden)

Can you please define minorities? Why is that religion should be the only criteria to define minorities? If I am a Hindu by birth but atheist in practise, or if i am a Hindu Upper caste Indian from South India who does not speak or know Hindi, I should be considered as a minority too. Why I am i excluded?

Hitesh Brahmbhatt >> (2) Proportional representation across all sections of society so they can keep watchful eye on (1)

I do agree in principle on this but how do we define the sections? Do we define only by caste? Or by gender ? Or by occupation/class? If we agree to this principle, we should also agree to remove the concept of Government and President nominating some people of eminence to Rajya sabha, thereby allowing a select professional elite to collaborate with establishment to promote anti people agenda (.like they did in FDI retail voting)

Hitesh Brahmbhatt >> (3) One person, one vote but in reversal of Boston Tea party slogan No representation, if Tax evasion.

Again an excellent idea. But tell me, why is it that in india , only 3% of Indians are paying income tax? Why is that we have legal sanction where entire sections of society, including landlords owning 100 acres, cultivating tobacco in Coastal AP pay no income tax? Shoudl they also be disenfranchised? Any thoughts

Sorry if I misunderstood. But frankly, with your blabbering and changing the subject with virtually every sentence, you are not very coherent. Let's examine your statements in the current post itself.

>> because of the role it played in the rise and success of Hitler

I don't know what role it played there, but otherwise, would you have been for it?

>> About Modis and Moditvavadis, can't you hear the din? Who is denying their right to speech?

I don't know what the above is in response to. I didn't talk about FOE anywhere in my post. Again, lack of coherence.

>> I am not sure whether there is something like preventive detention in US.

Again.

>> I have had a whole army of friends and colleagues quoting Voltaire endlessly in early 1990s

Again.

>> Well, Madhu Kishwar is now in disgrace

And yet again. This article is not about Madhu Kishwar. And of course, my views on her latest article are different from yours. If both of us are willing, we can discuss them there.

My post was about proportional representation, which I mistakenly thought you were proposing. Apologies for that. If you are not doing that (though ostensibly, your reasons are different), I have nothing to debate on this issue.

>>>> "Women throughout history have adored people who oppressed them"
>> What a macho and patronising comment?

It is the exact opposite. It is a crticism of women who uphold patriarchal supremacy. The second half of my comment referred to the fact that men-generated religions put women down, and yet women are for some reason more religious than men.

'tea-stall attendant' explains the economic background...his family life over the last few decades gives away another aspect of his personality...economic deprivation and impotency have been known to create extreme rage in man...he tries hard to hide the rage held within...but the squeals, shrieks and shouts in his 'speech' betray his rage, every now and then.

the young who adore him know that there are good roads all over the country (atleast as good as a southern country can boast of)...its the blood-letting that he orchestrated that appeals to them.

So you think our main stream english didn't had this information, why they didn't debated it? Debate it let see how country reacts to it...When we can debate Madras High Court Judge letter to CJI why can't this?

"Just type Justice Soni Justice Alam and google it"

First of all google is not at all required to prove that Teesta is guilty and Aftab is trying to protect her, if common sense is there that's enough to judge them.

Google is used by very high intellectual peopls on this earth and I am not among them, only crystal clear understanding is that Teesta must have been jailed by court for Pandarpur Grave digging.

What was the purpose of Soni's letter except to get Justice Alam out of Gujarat related cases in Supreme Court? Why did he not file a PIL? Fear of censure from SC? So the letter. As I had shown in my analysis, the letter was frivolous

Mami please read that letter again I would request you....Censur from what SC? dont forget if he wanted he would have gone to media first garner as much support from Gujarati's and other people for exposing this Aftab Alam and his attitude towards Gujarat this would have boiled the country agains and this time judiciary would have been divided on lines of communal the way Kejriwal does and then he would have approached court but he didn't do so why?

PIL for what to tell fellow Judge is not in terms with Law don't this Aftab and CJI understand this? Are they kid? Rest history has answer in itself Hindus have stood behind somone who stood for them and this case would not have been different belive me...

"Can you explain to us why grave digging (done by the relatives of those who were buried there) was wrong? All the details of the case are in the link that I had provided"

Court too has agreed that action by Teesta is gross negligence thats why Law still hold her guilty and asking Gujarat to take back FIR..why dont Aftab quahed FIR then and there itself?

"No wonder a suitable replacement of Soni as Lokayukta could not be found."

If Gujarat Govt wanted Soni as a replacment or he wanted it then Soni names would have figured as front runner for 2nd turn but it didnt? Why?

After all Soni was among 90% becuase he trusted Judiciary better he should have gone to media first and expose Aftab...

>Lol! All this while, we saw a deluge of links from Manushi seen as an authority on all issues. The moment Kishwar writes something unpalatable to our liberals, she becomes a disgrace! Our liberals would make a good case study.

I have no disagreement over her criticism over media etc. Media coverage often lacks depth. Actually. I practically don't watch TV, because of its lack of depth and shoutings and posturings. Where I disagree with Madhu is over

He is alleged to be a man with a fascist mindset with Muslims of Gujarat supposedly living as an endangered minority in perpetual fear and insecurity. Interestingly this charge is most loudly and aggressively levelled by NGO activists who have received massive support—financial material and political form the Congress party and its governments as well as powerful international donor agencies.

The funding is in the public domain and is no secret. Here I have tried to assemble available material regarding Communalism Combat in public domain hope-and-hope.blogspot.in/2012/12/the-case-against-teesta-setalvad-funding.html . One of the other NGOs active in Gujarat cases is Mukul and Nirjari Sinha's Jan Sangharsh Manch formed explicitly to fight for the riot victims and they have also taken up the cases of encounter killings.Their work in analysind the CD's of call records was cruicial in nailing down the offenders in Naroda Patiya case.

May be Gujarat is a land of milk and honey for muslims and may be Madhu Kishwar will confirm it for us when she visits Gujarat next month. The issue as far as riot industry sickulars is concerned is over justice to victims and survivors of Gujarat 2002. Teesta and Co started their activism with Bombay riots, starting Communalism Combat in 1993. I respect the activists for sticking to their agenda, especially in face of calls for amnesia. To get the perspective right, the one man mission of H.S.Phoolka to get justice for Sikh victims of 1984, has been extremely appreciative of the acievements of Gujarat riot industry sickular activists.

I have learnt a lot from Madhu Kishwar's writings and continue to remain her admirer. I have never been anybody's chamcha. Even in this piece of writing she makes many important points. But she can ask herself, how Gandhi would have acted in a similar situation - Would he have been piqued by a snub in a TV debate? Even this article of hers, could she have not written it unemotionally and made a much stronger impact ?

Reg proportional representation, I am not a great advocate, not for reasons you suggested byt something even more basic -

All, I repeat all Indian political parties (including the favourite AAP) , except BJP and Left parties are essentially one person or one family shows and ideology is compromised (AAP may be an exception) at the altar of power.

AAP and JDU are reasonably non feudal and not family run parties but even they are run by whims and fancies of one supreme leader.

The BJP and Left are hated for different reasons which may or maynot be right but both are commendable in that they have not become one person or one family shows. Even a BJP Under Modi will not be able to make it a one person show (Modi cannot say remove a Shivraj Chauhan at his whim or will). To some extent Left , has to accomodate a achuthanandan despite what his factional rival wanted...

Given this, we need strong measures to remove the rampant feudalism in indian political parties - starting with the party that has ruled and been ruling India for 56 years.

Some strong laws that prevent family members of a political leader from entering politics without "direct mandate" and laws that prevent a leader from serving more than 3 terms in any political office (like in US) should be brought here. And all these IMHO are greater priority than bringing proportional representation.

PS - BTW it is not understood that one social group that will immensely benefit from Prop Representation will be the Muslims. They can then set their own conservative political party and simply target to get their 15-20% vote share and then bargain with rest. (Not that it will really benefit muslims - history shows how middlemen in minority religions always make decisions in self interest and not in common interest). And Contrary to what you think Conservative Right wing sanghi Hindus will not benefit from Prop representation in any manner.

Hitesh Brahmbhatt >> "Democracy" itself came after "billion years" history of this earth, that too in fits and starts; gradually extending from Lords and Noblemen to non-property holders, women and blacks, browns and others.

So you are right, we have had a billion years of history on earth (with living creatures) and we have had democracy (again only to 60% or so of people on this planet) for just last 30-50 years..

Even a 100 years is just a puny fraction of One billion, meaning it is too early to say if democracy as an idea is sustainable over a long duration of humanity (say 1 million years from now? and ah 1 million is also just 0.1% of 1 billion !!)

And more so that given we have something called welfare state that is what democracy is really about in much of world today, is this sustainable in a world with limited resources?

Hitler came to power with minority vote share because of the failure of the mainstream parties. He subsequently sabotaged the constitution and hijacked the government because of the failure of the judiciary.

>>That is what we have been facing over our entire adult life,

No, we have not been "facing" it, we have been hiding it.

>>But reservation for women in local bodies has resulted in greater participation of women in local matters. That will result in lasting changes than resevation for Lok sabha seats.

there are no good arguments against either, especially in India.

Surprisingly, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Bangladesh are all ahead in this regard.

Well, the Sophia Khans and Sarojas need more than Arjun Modhvadias. Over the years I have seen how people build up leaders, projected personas on leaders - whether it was firm decisive Indira."modern" Rajiv, "secular, mandal messiah" VP Singh, "erudite polyglot Narasimha Rao, poet PM Vajpayee, economist Manmohan Singh etc. (Janata Party rule and the reigns of Chandrashekhar, Deve Gowda or IK Gujral have not invited serious projections, I wonder why). Of late this hunt for leader has gone out of the rulers to likes of Anna Hazares and Kejriwals....

Democracy in its true spirit is more than one person- one vote. What in its negative aspects is seen as "minorityism", is something sought to be institutionalised when proportional representation system is advocated. The fact is in proportional representation system, Sophia Khans and Sarojas will never be marginalised as they are today, but on the flip side, Modis will never be kicked out.

The Sophia Khans and Sarojas realise the beauty of our parliamentary system and have decided that they will speak out, intelligently, if only to defend the honour of people who are too busy to counter the systematic calumny against them.