Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list

Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 10:12 am

Major Tierce

Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:21 pmPosts: 3567

After having looked a little more at the 2 maps with no doors I do not think that they can make the restricted list. I think that giving Lancer/Yobuck or even swap the ability to get to the other side without having to open at least 1 door (or have the opp open it for them) could be a mistake.

Squads should be allowed to be 200 pts and not 170 some and I need X for Yobuck cuz if I lose map I am toast because no rooms to set up in and I need Y for same reason against Lancer, etc. Obviously some squads are better suited to match up against other squads but I don't think a map with no doors is a good idea. Even Rancor pen has rooms on boths sides for set-up if desired and you know if you lose map you will get the bettter of the sides for your squad to be able to play against whatever the opp has.

_________________When I left you I was but the learner . . . now I am the master.

Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list

Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 12:37 pm

Imperial Dignitaries

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 12:42 pmPosts: 3608Location: New Jersey

It's true that the big-movement squads have an advantage on the doorless maps, but what about Rebels and Republic on the door-heavy maps? Quad-override can be just as much of a problem as having no doors. By adding doorless maps to the list, we're keeping the quad-override squads in check, and that's a good thing.

_________________"Don't give the tool more credit than the master." --Weeks

I understand the concern, but on a map like Swamp Caves, is it really that much of an issue? Yobuck is severely slowed down because of the rough terrain/cover. Lancer is more powerful, but there's a lot of distance to cover, and you really can't go in a straight line. So is it possible to do the 1st round deep strike stuff successfully? The lack of doors affects both sides of things. It's great for some squads, and bad for others.

I'm curious why you guys feel the way you do about Theed. I feel it is VASTLY better than the Jedi Temple, and about on par with Ruined Base in many ways. There aren't very many long-distance shots across the map, especially if you plan the rooms in the upper 2/3 of the map.

_________________-AaronMand'alor"You either die a hero, or you live to see yourself become the villain."

Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list

Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 4:07 pm

Hall of Fame Member

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 11:43 amPosts: 1163Location: Fremont, CA

Right. I think it's important to compare to the baseline WotC maps and look for potential "exploitation" that doesn't already exist there (because we basically saw that there was minimal exploitation at regionals and gencon.)

So is Theed markedly more exploitable than, say, Jedi Temple or Throne Room? I don't want to discount any opinions, but I think it's a tough argument to make on the surface.

And then Lancer on Dagobah vs Pit or Grand Plaza. No doors vs (basically) one door. But Plaza is slick because the door is easy to open, movement is a straight shot, and there's virtually no unstrafable squares. Pit gives your opponent an extra door and a ton of unstrafable squares in the turbolifts, but you steal the good Gambit side as a tradeoff which comes in real handy. Dagobah is tougher to hide your Lancer in Gambit, or elsewhere on the right side, and the left has a number of unstrafable squares to park commanders in with reletive safety. All in all, I might stick to a WotC option for Lancer given the Dagobah option. Heck, at Regionals I saw a Lancer strafe the starting area of Ruined Base on round 1 so it's not like you're gaining much with extra doors.

Kybuck has a tough time getting around Dagobah, and you give up the Override advantage that the Doombot/Kybuck combo can often create for you because you have no doors near the map center. Another case where maybe I prefer Jedi Temple.

(I haven't played on Badlands as much so I'm using the example I'm more familiar with.)

I think all these maps are worth considering very carefully, but in truth I fear Mos Eisley and Night Club more than just about any of the custom ones I listed as my top picks.

Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list

Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 4:16 pm

Big Bad Brad

Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:14 amPosts: 5344

LoboStele wrote:

I understand the concern, but on a map like Swamp Caves, is it really that much of an issue? is Lancer is more powerful, but there's a lot of distance to cover, and you really can't go in a straight line. So is it possible to do the 1st round deep strike stuff successfully?

Yes, or it forces your opponent to play the right side and set up in the back two rows.

LoboStele wrote:

I'm curious why you guys feel the way you do about Theed. I feel it is VASTLY better than the Jedi Temple, and about on par with Ruined Base in many ways. There aren't very many long-distance shots across the map, especially if you plan the rooms in the upper 2/3 of the map.

It is vastly better than Jedi Temple, but I still think that one should come off. Theed I'm still not sold off of yet. I showed Weeks and Jonny a sole concern I have and they agreed. A certain squad/squad type can really control this map. The most effective squad against it would be Lancers but there are some good spots on this map to avoid strafe.

1. Reasonable advancement possibilities : Yes.

2.No across the board LOS: In some spots yes, but requires override. One place only requires a single.

3. Walls in Gambit: Some, enough to advance to gambit, but smaller pieces won't hold it for the round.

4.No major squad type exploitation: Eh this is the hangup. Mostly because of type, which is a category. You can say Deepstrike is a type, or mobile shooters but that's pretty broad. As certain squds are able to make Meta in that type while others aren't even close. For instance, when I've mentioned mobile override squads people keep brining up ERC commando squads, which are tier two at best. So I am confused as to why these weaker squads should be taken into consideration once a more powerful squad that is Meta has been established. It's like saying Separatist Lancers and Republic Speeders are the same thing, when really they are only the same type.

Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list

Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 5:00 pm

Hall of Fame Member

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 11:43 amPosts: 1163Location: Fremont, CA

The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:

No major squad type exploitation: Eh this is the hangup. Mostly because of type, which is a category. You can say Deepstrike is a type, or mobile shooters but that's pretty broad. As certain squds are able to make Meta in that type while others aren't even close. For instance, when I've mentioned mobile override squads people keep brining up ERC commando squads, which are tier two at best. So I am confused as to why these weaker squads should be taken into consideration once a more powerful squad that is Meta has been established. It's like saying Separatist Lancers and Republic Speeders are the same thing, when really they are only the same type.

I would relabel your "confusion" as "understanding."

Quite simply, I don't think you need to consider spoiler squads. (We touched on this before.) The squad must be competetive (maybe not 50%/50%, but in the ballpark) on all the other possible maps against a crosssection of the established metagame before you start worrying much about whether it can exploit its own map.

We'll never be able to eliminate spoiler squads because some don't even require a particular map in many cases. If they do a bit better on their own map than we allow for a truly competetive squad that's okay. A broad example...

Let's say a MetaSquad wins about 55% of the time on its own map and 45% on opposing maps. A bit of an advantage for the map winner, but you aren't doomed if you lose map.

What happens with a map-dependent SpoilerSquad is typically like win 70% of the time on their own map but 5% of the time on opposing maps. The odds just don't work in your favor over the course of a long highly-competetive tourney. Even if you get that win ratio up to 90% on your map, it's typically really really difficult to do anything about "auto losses" if you lose the map roll and you can't go into a big tourney as anything but a spoiler with a squad that will take 3 auto losses just on map roll.

It's true that the big-movement squads have an advantage on the doorless maps, but what about Rebels and Republic on the door-heavy maps? Quad-override can be just as much of a problem as having no doors. By adding doorless maps to the list, we're keeping the quad-override squads in check, and that's a good thing.

That is an excellent point. Having doorless maps deters people from stacking override. I usually build with double and consider triple even outside of the Rebel faction. Doorless maps would certainly make me think twice about it.

_________________Cancer is not the boss of me.

Being organized is for people who are too lazy to look for their stuff.

Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list

Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 7:04 pm

Big Bad Brad

Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:14 amPosts: 5344

NickName wrote:

The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:

No major squad type exploitation: Eh this is the hangup. Mostly because of type, which is a category. You can say Deepstrike is a type, or mobile shooters but that's pretty broad. As certain squds are able to make Meta in that type while others aren't even close. For instance, when I've mentioned mobile override squads people keep brining up ERC commando squads, which are tier two at best. So I am confused as to why these weaker squads should be taken into consideration once a more powerful squad that is Meta has been established. It's like saying Separatist Lancers and Republic Speeders are the same thing, when really they are only the same type.

I would relabel your "confusion" as "understanding."

Quite simply, I don't think you need to consider spoiler squads. (We touched on this before.) The squad must be competetive (maybe not 50%/50%, but in the ballpark) on all the other possible maps against a crosssection of the established metagame before you start worrying much about whether it can exploit its own map.

We'll never be able to eliminate spoiler squads because some don't even require a particular map in many cases. If they do a bit better on their own map than we allow for a truly competetive squad that's okay. A broad example...

Let's say a MetaSquad wins about 55% of the time on its own map and 45% on opposing maps. A bit of an advantage for the map winner, but you aren't doomed if you lose map.

What happens with a map-dependent SpoilerSquad is typically like win 70% of the time on their own map but 5% of the time on opposing maps. The odds just don't work in your favor over the course of a long highly-competetive tourney. Even if you get that win ratio up to 90% on your map, it's typically really really difficult to do anything about "auto losses" if you lose the map roll and you can't go into a big tourney as anything but a spoiler with a squad that will take 3 auto losses just on map roll.

So, with a competitive squad that wins 50ish% on their opponents map, what percentage on their map can they win before it is too high and needs to be eliminated?

Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list

Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 7:40 pm

Hall of Fame Member

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 11:43 amPosts: 1163Location: Fremont, CA

If a squad is competetive against the metagame on other maps, and wins like 65-75% of the time on its own map, it's abusive and will lead to unbalanced squad selection.

This is Gencon 2009 Champs in a nutshell with the Speeder Cannons and Teth Monastery.

Teth had to die.

Compare that to Gencon 2010 Champs where no faction, map or squad was overly dominant. Many did well on their own maps. Many had good matchups. But nothing overwhelmed the variety. 2008 Champs is a good example too.

Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list

Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 11:52 pm

Death Star Designers

Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:03 pmPosts: 2525Location: Anderson, SC

The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:

For instance, when I've mentioned mobile override squads people keep brining up ERC commando squads, which are tier two at best. So I am confused as to why these weaker squads should be taken into consideration once a more powerful squad that is Meta has been established.

You cant really say that though ERC's have won the past 2 Gencon's. Deri Won with 1 of them, Daniel own with 2.

Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list

Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 12:05 am

Death Star Designers

Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2009 8:57 pmPosts: 3568

Weeks wrote:

The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:

For instance, when I've mentioned mobile override squads people keep brining up ERC commando squads, which are tier two at best. So I am confused as to why these weaker squads should be taken into consideration once a more powerful squad that is Meta has been established.

You cant really say that though ERC's have won the past 2 Gencon's. Deri Won with 1 of them, Daniel own with 2.

Having ERCs in the squad is different than being a "commando squad". I think both mine and Deri's squads were more of Han Cannon squads with ERCs for support if they had to be labelled.

_________________"An elegant, easy-to-understand concept or mechanic that accomplishes 95% of what you want is much better than a clunky, obtuse mechanic that gets you 100%" - Rob Daviau

Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list

Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 12:35 am

Death Star Designers

Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:03 pmPosts: 2525Location: Anderson, SC

Echo wrote:

Weeks wrote:

The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:

For instance, when I've mentioned mobile override squads people keep brining up ERC commando squads, which are tier two at best. So I am confused as to why these weaker squads should be taken into consideration once a more powerful squad that is Meta has been established.

You cant really say that though ERC's have won the past 2 Gencon's. Deri Won with 1 of them, Daniel own with 2.

Having ERCs in the squad is different than being a "commando squad". I think both mine and Deri's squads were more of Han Cannon squads with ERCs for support if they had to be labelled.

I'd say both of them would be "commando squads" (luke rc, elite rebel commando, crix madine who boosts commandos), but hey you guys ran em call em what you want lol

Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list

Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 6:50 am

Name Calling Internet Bully

Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 10:10 pmPosts: 6172Location: Gurnee, IL

Jedicartographer wrote:

The good thing about Theed: If theres a minor tweek here and there that needs to happen, then I can do it before I reissue it.

I don't agree with the sentiments about Theed not being good for Restricted. I believe it's still a 100% in map for this round of changes. With that said, I fully trust Brad's work on it, and hopefully if there is anything needed in an adjustment he can let you know. I would take the map as is personally.

Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list

Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 8:45 am

Big Bad Brad

Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:14 amPosts: 5344

Weeks wrote:

The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:

For instance, when I've mentioned mobile override squads people keep brining up ERC commando squads, which are tier two at best. So I am confused as to why these weaker squads should be taken into consideration once a more powerful squad that is Meta has been established.

You cant really say that though ERC's have won the past 2 Gencon's. Deri Won with 1 of them, Daniel own with 2.

For it to be considered an "ERC squad" in comparison with the squad I've been running on it (which you've seen). You need at least 4 of them. Using a Snow/Landspeeder, Bothan Noble, 2 R7's, and 2 ERC's is not the same thing just because it has the same number of attacks and overrides IMO.

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