Video demonstration of the difference between PBD and NOPBD

Video demonstration of the difference between PBD and NOPBD

I made a brief video demonstrating the difference in ball behaviour when we use PBD or NOPBD:

As always, criticism and suggestions are welcome, as I can easily make a revision of the video.

Re: Video demonstration of the difference between PBD and NOPBD

Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 7:09 pm

by Steve1977

Great and educational video Dagh. So even back in the day there were different versions of Kick Off each with their own idiosyncrasies. Has anyone ever seemingly retired from Kick Off due to PBD and no PBD? After all, having PBD gives the opposition an unfair advantage surely? I can see parrallels with this and the other option which shall remain nameless, both are unintentional artifacts from Player Manager - of that there is surely no denying, however unlike our other option, this one could be construed as tantamount to cheating. A button which allows you closer control and perhaps an un-natural control over the game.

Re: Video demonstration of the difference between PBD and NOPBD

Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 10:16 pm

by dnielsen

I made this video for people new to the KOA who may not yet know the difference between PBD and NOPBD. For these people, it is important to know that:

1) They can play the game of KO2 just in the way they are used to.2) They are not disadvantaged whether they are used to PBD or NOPBD.

I was prompted to make the video when I was asked by email if KO2CV was any different than the old KO2. I thought it would be helpful if I could point to this video to explain the PBD/NOPBD issue.

I would be happy to discuss whether the video can be improved with this purpose in mind. There is surely enough room in the rest of the forum for discussing other things??

Re: Video demonstration of the difference between PBD and NOPBD

Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:32 am

by Bounty Bob

Steve1977 wrote:Has anyone ever seemingly retired from Kick Off due to PBD and no PBD? After all, having PBD gives the opposition an unfair advantage surely?

I'm sure some did.

Is it truly that great of an advantage though, or is it just what you're used to? I can't play with PBD, so for me it's a disadvantage.

Also, don't forget that prior to Gianni winning the last world cup, it was won 5 years in a row by people playing NOPBD.

Re: Video demonstration of the difference between PBD and NOPBD

Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 4:46 am

by dnielsen

Well, Dino Dini left the KOA because of PBD.

Steve, what you have to keep in mind is that there were some huge fights in the beginning of the KOA once the difference between PBD and NOPBD became well-known.

To start with, it was widely thought that PBD only existed in the Oracle crack. It didn't help that the guy who made the crack made his entrance in the KOA and amused himself by claiming that he was responsible for PBD and had thus "improved the game".

You then had a large bunch of PBD users who said that PBD was nevertheless how they grew up with KO2 and that they would not accept that only NOPBD was insisted upon.

It was soon found out that PBD did indeed exist in the first original versions of KO2, and that there was thus no moral argument to be made about PBD only being something that people with pirated copies of KO2 used.

So, to accomodate both PBD and NOPBD users, a compromise was made where Team A decided on which version to play on. An effect of this was that all players had to practice with both PBD and NOPBD.

Then, around 2005, Steve Camber made it possible for each player in a game to choose between PBD or NOPBD, in the same game.

Then there was another huge fight...

I will just note one argument for the record. Gianluca felt that attacking with PBD was objectively stronger than attacking with NOPBD, and so, by allowing a free choice for each player, you would in effect push everybody to choose PBD. This was surely a valid concern.

On the other hand, history did not quite prove Gianluca right. The 2006 and 2007 WCs were won by a NOPBD player, and we did not see a mass exodus of players going from NOPBD to PBD.

My own feeling about the strength of PBD and NOPBD is like this:

If I play against a relatively weak defender, and if I use PBD, then I can take some extra time in the attack to trap the ball in a good spot for a subsequent PBD routine where I can move for a clear shot past the keeper. So, PBD allows me some easier goals here, because I have the extra time due to not being pushed by the defender.

However, when you play against a guy who is very strong with Cox and Co., I am not so sure PBD is better. You can compare it like this:

1) With NOPBD and aggressive quick finishing (using many curled shots), you may score, say, on 40% of your chances. You are not always in the right position for a curled shot, and there is some randomness in the shot, so you will have to miss sometimes.

2) With PBD and trying for dribbling runs, a strong Cox may stop you often enough so that you only score on 30% of your chances.

Gianluca also hinted that you can do the same stuff with PBD as you can with NOPBD, so that PBD had the best of everything for the attacker. However, this is IMHO not quite right. Some moves and techniques simply lend themselves better to NOPBD than to PBD.

The main conclusions to draw, and the ones that are relevant for people new to the KOA, are that people can play in the way they are used to, and that they are not disadvantaged by doing so. Familiarity is far more important than objective differences between PBD and NOPBD.

I also think history has proven that the introduction of PBD/NOPBD mix was a major improvement, everything taken into account. Tournaments are easier to run, and new people don't have to attack in a mode they are not used to.

I spent all the time on my Amiga playing with an original version of KO2 that had PBD. This is what feels natural to me, as it does to countless other people in the KOA. No, we are not cheating.

Re: Video demonstration of the difference between PBD and NOPBD

Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 7:37 am

by Abyss

dnielsen wrote:I spent all the time on my Amiga playing with an original version of KO2 that had PBD. This is what feels natural to me, as it does to countless other people in the KOA. No, we are not cheating.

Off course PBD is not cheating. But it's damn ugly!

Re: Video demonstration of the difference between PBD and NOPBD

Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 8:25 am

by Torchiador

Gianluca also hinted that you can do the same stuff with PBD as you can with NOPBD, so that PBD had the best of everything for the attacker. However, this is IMHO not quite right. Some moves and techniques simply lend themselves better to NOPBD than to PBD.

it is exactly my opinion about this matter. Btw I completely agree with your way to think about "to attack in PBD/NOPBD vs strong defender" but it an OT post.Nice video! for sure it will help someone to understad what is PBD

Re: Video demonstration of the difference between PBD and NOPBD

Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 9:35 am

by Steve Camber

Great video!

Nice summary of PBD history - I have to question this line though:

dnielsen wrote:It didn't help that the guy who made the crack made his entrance in the KOA and amused himself by claiming that he was responsible for PBD and had thus "improved the game".

Weetibix was the cracker. I have no recollection of him having any contact with the KOA. However it's highly possible that someone created a fake account for a laugh during the PBD 'wars'.. (ahh.. fun fays!). Could you post a link to his "improved the game" post?

Re: Video demonstration of the difference between PBD and NOPBD

Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 10:55 am

by weetabix

you might just check out my nine first posts... I remember we had loads of fun at that time!

Re: Video demonstration of the difference between PBD and NOPBD

Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 11:02 am

by Steve Camber

Re: Video demonstration of the difference between PBD and NOPBD

Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 11:43 am

by dnielsen

Classic Wonka quote on page 35 of that epic thread:

Binary, you don't know anything about KO2 so your opinions are a waste of time, especially cause you don't attend tournaments. I'm with Roberts post all the way and I will be in your new KOA Robert and so will all the best players in the UK. The runty ones can continue with the runty version if they like. I'm just relieved that quality players of Bill's and Roberts level know what's best. Also Dino, I am backing Swifty on this one and I think you should just piss off.

Ahhhh, those were the days, where making people leave the KOA was hard work!

Anyways, I clearly misunderstood the bit about Weetabix.

EDIT: I deleted the rest of the post, it's pointless. Long story put short is that you are stepping into a minefield if you begin to complain about PBD.

Re: Video demonstration of the difference between PBD and NOPBD

Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:17 pm

by gdh82

Another fine video - thanks Dagh. Will be hugely beneficial to newcomers to the pbd/nopbd issue. I remember being at a KORA tourney a while back where Robert gave us a similar 'live' demonstration.

dnielsen wrote:Ahhhh, those were the days, where making people leave the KOA was hard work!

That tickled me!

Re: Video demonstration of the difference between PBD and NOPBD

Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 2:53 pm

by vdsf1

dnielsen wrote:I made a brief video demonstrating the difference in ball behaviour when we use PBD or NOPBD:

As always, criticism and suggestions are welcome, as I can easily make a revision of the video.