Did you know that this Tory lead coalition Government have cut the pensioners Winter Fuel Payment, they say, in a bid to save money and cut the Deficit. I write this because the BBC TV media have not picked up on it.

For the over 60’s, the coalition have cut £50 off the payment which was £250 a year, it is now £200, and for the over 80’s they have cut the Winter fuel payment by £100, taking it from £400 to £300. And I have to repeat that this cut in the Winter Fuel payment has not been picked up by the media. And both the cuts, and the media indifference is another national scandal.

The coalition have stated this cut is to save money and cut the Deficit. But it is not to save money. It is because the right wing are driven by an ideological hatred of the welfare state. It is an arrogance against the poor, against the old.

The very existence of the former New Labour Government’s Winter Fuel payment paid to 12 million pensioners, means that the basic State pension is not enough to live on, yet more than 30,000 UK pensioners have died of cold related illnesses since 1997.

The Unions have never taken up this issue up on behalf of Britain’s elderly people, and in my view this is because our elderly people have no labour to withdraw to grab the media’s attention.

Britain’s State retirement pension has lost value over the last 30 years, it is fast diminishing. It is way below the EU average of 57 per cent. The State pension in this country is set at just 17 per cent of average earnings.

The recent public sector pension strikes have proved what can be achieved when people are hit personally, now the public and private sectors should get together and support our elderly people for higher State pensions, even though this does not affect worker’s, yet

This and previous right wing Government’s, including New Labour, have managed to divide British workers from the pensioners of this country, and these Government’s have forced people into self interest. It is time this was reversed. But how to achieve this perpetual me, me, me attitude that has spawned from the Thatcher era around 30 years ago, that’s the problem, because this self interest is inherent.

Britain’s elderly people are the backbone of our nation, in longevity terms alone they have contributed more to this country than other age groups. But the attitude from politicians is as if our elderly people haven’t paid a penny.

But their taxes and NI contributions have indeed been contributed, the Welfare State, and the NHS was founded from pensioners taxes and NI contributions when they were working, yet this generation have fundamentally been ignored since the 80’s, 30 years ago.

The richest people in this country had done extremely well since the 80’s, whereas our elderly people have been robbed of their full State pension rights in the name of political dogma.

Where do we as a nation get off allowing this and previous right wing Government’s to treat our elderly people so badly ?

And it’s this time of year when poverty is keenly felt, but not by our politicians, who in my view have not got a clue.

As Christmas eve draws near and New year’s eve follows, the political history of Britain since the 80’s has frankly reduced been to decadence.

Growing a massive rich and poor divide, which was made worse by the New Labour Government.

And now this Tory lead coalition are hitting the poor again and again and all due to ideology.

I am ashamed of my fellow countrymen and woman for being laid back and reserved when it comes to others suffering from these decadent policies administered by our right wing politicians, who do not have to endure them, themselves.

And now I am worried about how many more elderly people are going to suffer untimely deaths through this cold weather ?

If the Tory’s really wanted to cut the Deficit, there are a number of ways they could achieve this, without hurting themost vulnerable people in this country.

This Deficit cutting is one big excuse for Cameron to attack Britain’s most vulnerable people, and I cannot believe Nick Clegg is supporting this.

blueturando wrote:I agree Witchfinder, but both New Labour and the Coalition have failed to tackle this problem.The target obsessed New Labour Government continuously failed to meet their building programme targets and It doesn't look like the coalition will be any better.

I would like to see more done about empty properties...IE: a law brought in to say any property left empty for 1 year or longer becomes property of the council and can only be used for social housing

Thatcher gave Social housing a bad name, just like she gave the elderly a bad name, the unemployed a bad name, the disabled a bad name, she was a moderrn day Hitler, Thatcher demonised people, and she encouraged her followers and the rest of Britain to do the same.

Britain needs another Attlee, to bring in the social reforms we saw after the war, when we were bankrupt, yet we started building because we had the "will" to do so.

Today there is no "will", because the Tories are economists, they are not Socialists.

Thatcher gave Social housing a bad name, just like she gave the elderly a bad name, the unemployed a bad name, the disabled a bad name, she was a moderrn day Hitler, Thatcher demonised people, and she encouraged her followers and the rest of Britain to do the same.

Thatcher gave Social housing a bad name, just like she gave the elderly a bad name, the unemployed a bad name, the disabled a bad name, she was a moderrn day Hitler, Thatcher demonised people, and she encouraged her followers and the rest of Britain to do the same.

What planet do you live??? Why do you make stuff up as you go along?

I live on planet earth, a planet that is billions of years old, we go round the Sun, and the Sun give us light, it's light takes 8 minutes to reach us travelling at 186,000 miles a second.

I do not make anything up. I say what I know. If I made things up, I could write for the Daily Mail, or even the cherished Sun newspaper.

Thatcher demonised the welfare State and people forced to live on welfare because she, Thatcher, got rid of our Industries during the 80's.

In 1933, Hitler became Chancellor of Germany. Hitler also denounced the Unions, and demonised the Jews, the Gypsies, the Old, the Ill, and the disabled, as worthless people.

I see a comparison. Hitler caught the imagination of cultured, well educated Germnan's. Thatcher did the same to the ill educated, none cultured British working classes. And the rest is history. And have we repeated this history ?, yes we have, because millions voted for Cameron at the last G/E, and as time goes on, they will have wished they had not.

I am sorry, but I found your response to be rather childish and foolish, hence my "reasonable" response back.

Traditional Labour Government's of the past, simply believed in fairness, and these traditional Labour Government's were fair.

Whereas Hitlers National Socialism did indeed put people to work, but Hitler's ethos was that it was the "undesirables" who were at fault for Germany's failures, and this "thinking" was also at the root of Thatcherism.

How can anybody vote Tory? They succumb to a very powerful propaganda machine.

Writing for ‘The Guardian’, Owen Jones has said how, since Lehman Brothers collapsed, he “watched in awe as the right transformed a crisis of the market into a crisis of public spending”. Obviously the sympathetic right-wing media has helped, but he puts it down to this government having “one of the most effective propaganda machines of modern times”.

These are three of the ways in which the Cameron propagandists have operated:-

1. They revised the past.

Jones says they’ve “driven it into our skulls that we have a deficit because Labour indulged in the most shameless spending spree since Imelda Marcos's shoe collection. Collapsing tax revenues and soaring unemployment never get a mention. But, above all, Cameron has managed to make us forget that he backed Labour's spending plans until the end of 2008.”

2. They’ve demonised anyone in receipt of public money.

If unemployed or disabled people are just a faceless mass of scroungers, who cares if their benefits are cut? There's a similar approach with public sector workers, with all their ‘non-jobs’. Instead of being people who teach kids, treat people with cancer and empty bins, they become ‘vested interests’ and parasites on the taxpayer. It becomes so much easier, then, to make them pay off the deficit.

3. They’ve clothed radical ideas in the language of moderation.

Owen Jones: “From the outset, a coalition can easily present itself as inherently consensual and full of compromise….Cameron is going where Thatcher never even dared – on cuts and the NHS, for example – and yet seems far more reasonable than his party's adored Iron Lady. As opposition leader, Cameron galavanted around the Arctic with huskies, got mocked for wanting to 'hug a hoodie' and replaced the Tory logo with a tree. He uses the language of the ‘centre ground’ – a term politicians of all stripes use to define their policies as normal, sane and moderate, and anybody who believes differently is so politically unhinged they're not even worth engaging with.”

He continues: “The biggest cuts since the 1920s become a regrettable, unavoidable means of slashing the deficit, rather than a desirable attempt to drive back the state. But we know both Nick Clegg and Cameron are ideologically committed to such an agenda…..Before the election, Cameron argued that the cuts should remain in place even when the crisis was over. But, on the whole, the government has convinced a sizeable chunk of the population that it's just cleaning up Labour's mess, not engaging in an all-out ideological crusade.”

I am sorry, but I found your response to be rather childish and foolish, hence my "reasonable" response back.

Ivanhoe?? You say you found my response childish??? It was you who was comparing Thatcher to Hitler...which is ridiculous and you know it. Unless you want to tarnish the memory of the millions of people Hitler put to death during the 2nd world war?I was just setting you straight (tongue in cheek) The name of his political party looks familiar

Adolf Hitler did start his political carreer as a Socialist, then went extreem. I personaly think that as Socialism and Fascism veer off in diametricaly different directions, they eventually turn and begin to converg and end up as both the same. Both end up with a dictator in charge with allmost absolute power. If we learnt anything in the 20th and 21st centuries is that neither extreem works, and on a lesser scale Thatcherism and a totally left wing Government also dont work, what we need is something in the middle which at present is much closer to Edd Milibands Ideals than it is Herr Cameron.

I am sorry, but I found your response to be rather childish and foolish, hence my "reasonable" response back.

Ivanhoe?? You say you found my response childish??? It was you who was comparing Thatcher to Hitler...which is ridiculous and you know it. Unless you want to tarnish the memory of the millions of people Hitler put to death during the 2nd world war?I was just setting you straight (tongue in cheek) The name of his political party looks familiar

No it was not ridiculous. Both Hitler and Thatcher demonised the unfortunates. And both got a ground swell of their public behind them.

I am in no way trashing the memory of what went on in the Holocaust. And I think somre people in todays so-called civilised peace time Britain, choose to demonise the homelessness we have in this country. Some people demonise the elderly as being burdens on the State, they demonise the unemployed as wasters and scroungers, and even the disabled are demonised in many quarters.

I am sorry, but I found your response to be rather childish and foolish, hence my "reasonable" response back.

Traditional Labour Government's of the past, simply believed in fairness, and these traditional Labour Government's were fair.

Whereas Hitlers National Socialism did indeed put people to work, but Hitler's ethos was that it was the "undesirables" who were at fault for Germany's failures, and this "thinking" was also at the root of Thatcherism.

Let us put it this way Ivanhoe Thatcher nor Cameron give a shit for the normal working man never have and never will, the ones they care about are the ones with Millions or even Billions in the bank and the CEOs at the top of Companies it has been proved the rich have increased there Millions in the bank in the last YEAR while the rest of us have had too loose jobs have pay freezes and some even though there working have to go to FOOD BANKS to keep the WOLF from the door and I think that says it all.

I am sorry, but I found your response to be rather childish and foolish, hence my "reasonable" response back.

Traditional Labour Government's of the past, simply believed in fairness, and these traditional Labour Government's were fair.

Whereas Hitlers National Socialism did indeed put people to work, but Hitler's ethos was that it was the "undesirables" who were at fault for Germany's failures, and this "thinking" was also at the root of Thatcherism.

Let us put it this way Ivanhoe Thatcher nor Cameron give a shit for the normal working man never have and never will, the ones they care about are the ones with Millions or even Billions in the bank and the CEOs at the top of Companies it has been proved the rich have increased there Millions in the bank in the last YEAR while the rest of us have had too loose jobs have pay freezes and some even though there working have to go to FOOD BANKS to keep the WOLF from the door and I think that says it all.

Yes, I agree Redflag, but you just cannot get this into the thick head grass roots Tory supporters any of this.

Thatcher gave Social housing a bad name, just like she gave the elderly a bad name, the unemployed a bad name, the disabled a bad name, she was a moderrn day Hitler, Thatcher demonised people, and she encouraged her followers and the rest of Britain to do the same.

What planet do you live??? Why do you make stuff up as you go along?

I can see that most supporters of Hitler would be pretty enraged by this comparison, but he was pretty anti-British too, you know. It's just in those days decency was armed, whereas Thatcher just used the police on those unable to defend themselves..

Last edited by Penderyn on Sat Jan 14, 2012 7:30 pm; edited 1 time in total

I am sorry, but I found your response to be rather childish and foolish, hence my "reasonable" response back.

Traditional Labour Government's of the past, simply believed in fairness, and these traditional Labour Government's were fair.

Whereas Hitlers National Socialism did indeed put people to work, but Hitler's ethos was that it was the "undesirables" who were at fault for Germany's failures, and this "thinking" was also at the root of Thatcherism.

Let us put it this way Ivanhoe Thatcher nor Cameron give a shit for the normal working man never have and never will, the ones they care about are the ones with Millions or even Billions in the bank and the CEOs at the top of Companies it has been proved the rich have increased there Millions in the bank in the last YEAR while the rest of us have had too loose jobs have pay freezes and some even though there working have to go to FOOD BANKS to keep the WOLF from the door and I think that says it all.

The Tory Party mantra is to get as many to vote for them, so that they can look after the very few at the top. in other words the poor to vote to keep the rich wealthy. its been like this for the last 100 years

I am sorry, but I found your response to be rather childish and foolish, hence my "reasonable" response back.

Traditional Labour Government's of the past, simply believed in fairness, and these traditional Labour Government's were fair.

Whereas Hitlers National Socialism did indeed put people to work, but Hitler's ethos was that it was the "undesirables" who were at fault for Germany's failures, and this "thinking" was also at the root of Thatcherism.

Let us put it this way Ivanhoe Thatcher nor Cameron give a shit for the normal working man never have and never will, the ones they care about are the ones with Millions or even Billions in the bank and the CEOs at the top of Companies it has been proved the rich have increased there Millions in the bank in the last YEAR while the rest of us have had too loose jobs have pay freezes and some even though there working have to go to FOOD BANKS to keep the WOLF from the door and I think that says it all.

The Tory Party mantra is to get as many to vote for them, so that they can look after the very few at the top. in other words the poor to vote to keep the rich wealthy. its been like this for the last 100 years

Errrrrr, no it has'nt. It's been like this since Thatcher, 30 odd years ago. Incomed tax cuts were the bride. And Britain has never looked back.

I am sorry, but I found your response to be rather childish and foolish, hence my "reasonable" response back.

Traditional Labour Government's of the past, simply believed in fairness, and these traditional Labour Government's were fair.

Whereas Hitlers National Socialism did indeed put people to work, but Hitler's ethos was that it was the "undesirables" who were at fault for Germany's failures, and this "thinking" was also at the root of Thatcherism.

Let us put it this way Ivanhoe Thatcher nor Cameron give a shit for the normal working man never have and never will, the ones they care about are the ones with Millions or even Billions in the bank and the CEOs at the top of Companies it has been proved the rich have increased there Millions in the bank in the last YEAR while the rest of us have had too loose jobs have pay freezes and some even though there working have to go to FOOD BANKS to keep the WOLF from the door and I think that says it all.

The Tory Party mantra is to get as many to vote for them, so that they can look after the very few at the top. in other words the poor to vote to keep the rich wealthy. its been like this for the last 100 years

Errrrrr, no it has'nt. It's been like this since Thatcher, 30 odd years ago. Incomed tax cuts were the bride. And Britain has never looked back.

Well too me Conservatism is the approach of the very few to human affairs which mistrusts both reasoning and revolution, preferring to put its trust in experience of the few within the top of society with what it believes are tried and tested arrangements in a form of social and political order. with a very strong tendency towards complacency while its happy to accept the status Quo even when its unacceptable. (as pointed out by Plato to Hobbes) For them self reliance and greed are necessary to sustain the power for the very wealthy within society by its belief in the ignorance and corruptibility of the majority.

As the rich and powerful cannot win or rule without the ignorance and corruptibility of the majority in retaining power for the few. for them the market and capitalism embodies there virtues of power and is best run for the benefit of the the very few and is there for necessary to sustain there authority over the majority while supplementing the majority with just enough to sustain itself. but stopping what they used too call the mob from ever getting the the wealth too challenge the power base of the very few at the very top of society. For most Tories they reject any conception of a social contract. it was Burke who talked about pleasing illusions to make power gentle while gaining the obedience of the liberal majority.

I am sorry, but I found your response to be rather childish and foolish, hence my "reasonable" response back.

Traditional Labour Government's of the past, simply believed in fairness, and these traditional Labour Government's were fair.

Whereas Hitlers National Socialism did indeed put people to work, but Hitler's ethos was that it was the "undesirables" who were at fault for Germany's failures, and this "thinking" was also at the root of Thatcherism.

Let us put it this way Ivanhoe Thatcher nor Cameron give a shit for the normal working man never have and never will, the ones they care about are the ones with Millions or even Billions in the bank and the CEOs at the top of Companies it has been proved the rich have increased there Millions in the bank in the last YEAR while the rest of us have had too loose jobs have pay freezes and some even though there working have to go to FOOD BANKS to keep the WOLF from the door and I think that says it all.

The Tory Party mantra is to get as many to vote for them, so that they can look after the very few at the top. in other words the poor to vote to keep the rich wealthy. its been like this for the last 100 years

In short sharp term, the right wing of the Tory party rely on fear, ignorance, and self interesdt to gain power, back up by income tax cuts as the carrot.

There is in my view a pompasity about being a Tory supporter, it's as though Tory supporters are "above" everyboy else, there is an arrogance in the ether.

Errrrrr, no it has'nt. It's been like this since Thatcher, 30 odd years ago. Incomed tax cuts were the bride. And Britain has never looked back.

Well too me Conservatism is the approach of the very few to human affairs which mistrusts both reasoning and revolution, preferring to put its trust in experience of the few within the top of society with what it believes are tried and tested arrangements in a form of social and political order. with a very strong tendency towards complacency while its happy to accept the status Quo even when its unacceptable. (as pointed out by Plato to Hobbes) For them self reliance and greed are necessary to sustain the power for the very wealthy within society by its belief in the ignorance and corruptibility of the majority.

As the rich and powerful cannot win or rule without the ignorance and corruptibility of the majority in retaining power for the few. for them the market and capitalism embodies there virtues of power and is best run for the benefit of the the very few and is there for necessary to sustain there authority over the majority while supplementing the majority with just enough to sustain itself. but stopping what they used too call the mob from ever getting the the wealth too challenge the power base of the very few at the very top of society. For most Tories they reject any conception of a social contract. it was Burke who talked about pleasing illusions to make power gentle while gaining the obedience of the liberal majority.

THe Conservative approach is a game of profit and loss, the whole Conservative way of thinking is rather like Mr Spock after been programmed to link logic to profit.

A Libertarians view point does take account of profit and loss, but the word "need" is always added into the equasion.

Should we build this housing estate here ?

(Conservative thinking) If we spend money building this housing estate, will a profit be made for either business or the tax payer.

(Libertarian thinking) Is there a "need" for home to be built here

The British Labour Party is a "Libertarian" political party, same as the Social Democrats of Europe, the Lib Dems are SUPPOSED to be part of the same family, but at the moment they have forgotten who they are, or they are pretending to be something they are not.

witchfinder wrote:THe Conservative approach is a game of profit and loss, the whole Conservative way of thinking is rather like Mr Spock after been programmed to link logic to profit.

A Libertarians view point does take account of profit and loss, but the word "need" is always added into the equasion.

Should we build this housing estate here ?

(Conservative thinking) If we spend money building this housing estate, will a profit be made for either business or the tax payer.

(Libertarian thinking) Is there a "need" for home to be built here

The British Labour Party is a "Libertarian" political party, same as the Social Democrats of Europe, the Lib Dems are SUPPOSED to be part of the same family, but at the moment they have forgotten who they are, or they are pretending to be something they are not.

I take out the "need". I look at the European concept of housing, homeownership alongside renting, with none of this "need", none of this "class", because people have a "right". to somewhere to live that they can afford, and this is the normal way it should be.

I kid you not, if I were in Milliband's shoes, I would tell my advisers to go bury their heads, and I would say to the media, everything I have said on here.

Britain is in pigshit because our politicians are playing court to Britain's middle classes. Frankly I would and could not get into politics holding my intregrity in place, if I had to bow and scrape to anybody, let alone middle england.

I could not get into politics for a similar reason Ivan, my reason would be I could not put a zip on my mouth so with me its both integrity and holding my tongue.

I kid you not, if I were in Milliband's shoes, I would tell my advisers to go bury their heads, and I would say to the media, everything I have said on here.

Britain is in pigshit because our politicians are playing court to Britain's middle classes. Frankly I would and could not get into politics holding my intregrity in place, if I had to bow and scrape to anybody, let alone middle england.

I could not get into politics for a similar reason Ivan, my reason would be I could not put a zip on my mouth so with me its both integrity and holding my tongue.

Quote : " Gove wants a military cadet force in every school. I wonder if it will be called Cameron Youth?"

Almost certainly the start of the 'Academy Regiment', with the sole eventual purpose of invading Harrow School to exact revenge for the defeat of Eton in the 1928 Fagging Championships of Great Britain...

The scandal affecting Care Homes running out of money is extending to other practitioners in Private Medicine. General Healthcare which runs 67 private hospitals. is in dispute with its Insurer, BUPA. The Company is said to have total debts in the region of £2billion. It is also under the eye of the Office of Fair Trading.

You know we had the Torys from 1974 until 1997. You might not know that New Labour under Blair and Brown continued Thatcher's free market policies from day one in 1997. So we have not had a "Labour" Government since 1974.

Going by your posting, I think you are refering to having supported the Tories ( Bories ) at one time, have I read that correctly ?, and also "New" Labour, again have I read that correctly ?.Ivanhoe

Posts: 61Join date: 2011-12-11

Well, we put them in.

Yeah Yeah have a dig.I am not complicated and starting to feel you are goading, if you are please desist.I have only been in your Ingerland for 30 years. When in Scotland where I was born, Scottish farmers were among the most productive in the western world!You could go nowhere in Perthshire and NOT see a conservative flag!

So that is what I was brought up with.There is no reason why the witch handed Scotland to the SNP on a plate! none!! It DID put Labour on the back burner, and That was all it was about - John Smith MP was not going to go anywhere and that crowd of mountebanks (conservatives) made sure of itI am well aware of the gubmints and their allegiances thank you and for Blair to rescind the treason laws in this country, and for Brown to sell off the Gold in the manner he did, says a lot about their inner thinking!

THERE IS NO POLITICIAN OR PARTY WORTH A LIGHT IN THIS SAD COUNTRY NOW!! none!

Phil Hornby wrote:Quote : " Gove wants a military cadet force in every school. I wonder if it will be called Cameron Youth?"

Almost certainly the start of the 'Academy Regiment', with the sole eventual purpose of invading Harrow School to exact revenge for the defeat of Eton in the 1928 Fagging Championships of Great Britain...