Are these basically the same practice? Is vipassana as it is commonly taught today considered satipatanna or anapanasati or both (or does this depend on the precise style, i.e. Mahasi noting vs Goenka etc?)

I have heard some people say that anapanasati is basically a samatha only practice and only satipatanna is vipassana (with the implications that anapanasati might be good for calming thing and developing concentration, but that satipatanna is the "real deal"). On the other hand Buddhadhasa Bhikku's Mindfulness with Breathing: A Manual for Serious Beginners is based off the Anapanasati Sutta, and it seems to go beyond samatha practice.

In looking at the Satipatanna Sutta and the Anapanasati Sutta, the Satipatanna Sutta is clearly more detailed in its instructions, but the practice of Anapanasati also is founded on the 'Four Frames of Reference'.

Is there an established answer to this question within the Theravada, or is this going to be looked at differently by different schools?

in the satipatthana sutta there are four satipatthanas - foundations of mindfulness - mentioned:

1. Body2. Feelings3. Mind4. Mind-Objects

Each satipatthana provides various components for contemplation.

Anapanasati - mindfulness of breathing - is mentioned in the satipatthana sutta as first method of contemplating the first satipatthana - the body.

The reason why anapanasati is mentioned first is probably, that of all contemplation objects, the breathing has the most tranquilizing effect.

It's not true that anapanasati is a Samatha practice only - it just has more emphasis on the concentration part. In the end, every practice of the satipatthana sutta can lead to enlightenment, when correctly practiced.The reason why the Buddha gave so many possible contemplation objects, is that for different people in different situations some methods lead quicker to enlightenment than others.

drifting cloud wrote:I have heard some people say that anapanasati is basically a samatha only practice and only satipatanna is vipassana (with the implications that anapanasati might be good for calming thing and developing concentration, but that satipatanna is the "real deal"). On the other hand Buddhadhasa Bhikku's Mindfulness with Breathing: A Manual for Serious Beginners is based off the Anapanasati Sutta, and it seems to go beyond samatha practice.

Opinions will differ. When I look at the 4 tetrads of the Anapanasati Sutta I see a progression of gladdening, experiencing and calming. When I look at the 4 frames of the Satipatthana Sutta I see a more piecemeal approach to experiencing, with calming implied. If we equate experiencing with insight ( vipassana ) and calming with tranquillity ( samatha ) then it appears that the 4 tetrads of Anapanasati approach from the direction of samatha while the 4 frames of Satipatthana approach from the direction of vipassana.

Though increasingly I think that samatha and vipassana are not really separate activites, and are more like 2 sides of the same coin - you can't do one without the other!

"I ride tandem with the random, Things don't run the way I planned them, In the humdrum."Peter Gabriel lyric

I see them both as being jhana practice, which follows after dealing with the hindrances. Satipatthana is a framework for knowing & seeing; anapanasati is a way of using satipatthana to develop the seven factors of enlightenment. As they are not sequential in satipatthana, so they cannot be sequential in anapanasati; the common editorial addition of the numbers 1-16 in anapanasati suttas helps perpetuate a misunderstanding, it seems to me.

"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

daverupa wrote: As they are not sequential in satipatthana, so they cannot be sequential in anapanasati;

I don't see why not. The 4 tetrads are said to fulfill satipatthana but that doesn't mean they are the same thing. There are very significant differences between the 4 tetrads of anapanasati and the 4 frames of satipatthana - take for example the 4th tetrad, which is very far removed from mindfulness of mental objects in the 4th frame.

"I ride tandem with the random, Things don't run the way I planned them, In the humdrum."Peter Gabriel lyric

On whatever occasion a monk trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out focusing on inconstancy'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out focusing on dispassion'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out focusing on cessation'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out focusing on relinquishment': On that occasion the monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He who sees with discernment the abandoning of greed & distress is one who watches carefully with equanimity, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.

"This is how mindfulness of in-&-out breathing is developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination.

---

(Tangential;

the italicized portion goes to the suggestion that this fourth tetrad is for skilled jhana practitioners; we can compare:

I: ...this — the in-&-out breath — is classed as a body among bodies, which is why...II: ...this — careful attention to in-&-out breaths — is classed as a feeling among feelings, which is why...III: ...I don't say that there is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing in one of lapsed mindfulness and no alertness, which is why...

It reflects a certain progression, doesn't it? However, this is not a straight 16-step practice, but a quartile practice sorted according to ones development, imo; additionally, MN 125 suggests that satipatthana practice follows the abandonment the hindrances, which means using anapanasati to abandon them is going about it backwards.)

"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

porpoise wrote:take for example the 4th tetrad, which is very far removed from mindfulness of mental objects in the 4th frame.

(Tangential;

the italicized portion goes to the suggestion that this fourth tetrad is for skilled jhana practitioners; we can compare:

I: ...this — the in-&-out breath — is classed as a body among bodies, which is why...II: ...this — careful attention to in-&-out breaths — is classed as a feeling among feelings, which is why...III: ...I don't say that there is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing in one of lapsed mindfulness and no alertness, which is why...

It reflects a certain progression, doesn't it? However, this is not a straight 16-step practice, but a quartile practice sorted according to ones development, imo; additionally, MN 125 suggests that satipatthana practice follows the abandonment the hindrances, which means using anapanasati to abandon them is going about it backwards.)

Sorry Dave but you've completely lost me here.

My point was that the 4th tetrad of anapanasati looks nothing like mindfulness of mental objects described in the 4th frame of satipatthana. Here's the 4th tetrad from MN118:

"[13] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on inconstancy.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on inconstancy.' [14] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on dispassion [literally, fading].' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on dispassion.' [15] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on cessation.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on cessation.' [16] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on relinquishment.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on relinquishment.'

I don't understand your "going about it backwards" comment. Traditionally abandoning the hindrances is associated with jhana, and in fact several of the anapanasati commentaries I've read speak of the first 3 tetrads being mainly concerned with jhana ( tranquillity ) with only the 4th tetrad being purely insight.

"I ride tandem with the random, Things don't run the way I planned them, In the humdrum."Peter Gabriel lyric

My point was that the 4th tetrad of anapanasati looks nothing like mindfulness of mental objects described in the 4th frame of satipatthana. Here's the 4th tetrad from MN118:

I don't understand your "going about it backwards" comment. Traditionally abandoning the hindrances is associated with jhana, and in fact several of the anapanasati commentaries I've read speak of the first 3 tetrads being mainly concerned with jhana ( tranquillity ) with only the 4th tetrad being purely insight.

Well, a couple of things, and I'm sorry for being obtuse:

First, you say "the 4th tetrad of anapanasati looks nothing like...", but despite this we have Suttas which say "On whatever occasion a monk trains himself [in the 4th tetrad of anapanasati], on that occasion the monk remains focused on [the fourth frame]." So, it is simply the case.

Second (and much of my thinking here might be rather heterodox), I suppose I disagree with the commentaries on this point. Anapanasati can be either anapanasati or anapanasatisamadhi (Suttas in the Samyutta Nikaya start the anapansati-samyutta with the first term, and after a bit start using the second term exclusively), so it's something of a transitional practice. Since anapanasati is satipatthana, as above, and since satipatthana follows the suppression of the hindrances (MN 125), it seems clear that the hindrances are to be dealt with before engaging with any tetrad of anapanasati. Doubt, for example, is doubt over what makes a state wholesome or unwholesome, not doubt over whether the Dhamma is true or whether there are gods or not.

In any event, samatha and vipassana aren't practices, they are paired qualities which develop due to the gradual training. Furthermore, diversity of faculties means some will excel with samatha, some with vipassana - in each case the practitioner is called on to balance their development, not to choose one or the other, not even for a short time.

...and, interestingly, satipatthana isn't otherwise part of any gradual training Suttas as far as I can recall... it seems clear to me (!) that satipatthana is something of a jhana synonym; I can't help but see the satipatthana pericope "putting/having put* aside greed and covetousness with respect to the world" as being equivalent to "secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states".

---

*The conjugation here may be important, but I don't know the Pali. I expect the conjugation once reflected simply past tense for anapanasatisamadhi, present tense for anapanasati, but this is quite speculative.

"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

daverupa wrote:Second (and much of my thinking here might be rather heterodox), I suppose I disagree with the commentaries on this point. Anapanasati can be either anapanasati or anapanasatisamadhi ....

And there you'd be in agreement with other great heterodox practitioners such as Mahasi Sayadaw and U Pandita.

U Pandita wrote:http://aimwell.org/Books/Other/Questions/questions.htmlĀnāpānassati can take two directions. If the meditator strives to be mindful of the form or manner of the in-breath and the out-breath, then it is samatha meditation and leads to one-pointedness of mind. On the other hand, if the meditator notes the sensation of the in-breath and out-breath as it moves and touches, then it is vipassanā meditation. The element of wind or motion (vayo-dhātu) is rūpa or matter, while the awareness or consciousness of the sensation is nāma or mind. Therefore, ānāpānassati can be considered as vipassanā, and can lead to high levels of insight wisdom. However, in the Visuddhimagga, in the section on kāyānupassana, or mindfulness of body, fourteen objects of meditation are discussed, and further subdivided into objects for samatha and vipassanā meditation. In the Visuddhimagga, ānāpānassati is presented as an object of samatha meditation. Consequently, if we are to instruct meditators to develop ānāpānassati as part of vipassanā meditation, we will be inviting much unwanted and unwarranted criticism and controversy. And neither Mahāsi Sayādaw or myself would want to argue here that the Visuddhimagga, the rightly venerated classic, is at fault here.

So it appears that one reason why Mahasi Sayadaw instructed using the abdominal rising and falling as an object, rather than breath, was to avoid criticism from some conservative quarters... [Of course there are other reasons...].

U Pandita wrote:It has been said that by noting the rising and falling of the abdomen, meditators are distancing themselves from the teachings of the Buddha. The answer to this is a firm and definite “no.” Quite apart from the success that meditators have achieved by noting rising-falling, there is much solid evidence in the Buddhist scriptures, such as Salāyatana Vagga Samyutta, to show that the method is very much a part of the Buddha’s teachings regarding mindfulness of the body, mindfulness of the elements (dhātu), and mindfulness of the five aggregates (khandhas).

Experienced teachers and practitioners are clearly not slaves to ancient or modern orthodoxy...

drifting cloud wrote:I have heard some people say that anapanasati is basically a samatha only practice and only satipatanna is vipassana (with the implications that anapanasati might be good for calming thing and developing concentration, but that satipatanna is the "real deal"). On the other hand Buddhadhasa Bhikku's Mindfulness with Breathing: A Manual for Serious Beginners is based off the Anapanasati Sutta, and it seems to go beyond samatha practice.

Near the end of the very book you have posted there is a most relevant passage for you to consider:

SATIPATTHANA IS ANAPANASATI

Another common problem is that some people cling to and are stuck on the word satipatthana (foundations of mindfulness) far too much. Some go so far as to think that Anapanasati has nothing to do with the four foundations of mindfulness. Some even reject Anapanasati out of hand. In some places they really hang onto the word "satipatthana." They cling to the satipatthana of the Digha-nikaya (Long Discourses) which is not anything more than a long list of names, a lengthy catalogue of sets of dhammas. Although there are whole bunches of dhammas, no way of practice is given or explained there. This is what is generally taken to be satipatthana. Then it is adjusted and rearranged into these and those practices, which become new systems that are called satipatthana practices or meditation.*

*[Whether these practices are correct and useful, or not, is not an issue here. (ET)]

Then, the followers of such techniques deny, or even despise, the Anapanasati approach, asserting that it is not satipatthana. In truth, Anapanasati is the heart of satipatthana, the heart of all four foundations of mindfulness. The 16 Steps is a straight-forward and clear practice, not just a list of names or dhammas like in the Mahasatipatthana Sutta (Digha-nikaya#22**). Therefore, let us not fall into the misunderstanding that Anapanasati is not satipatthana, otherwise we might lose interest in it thinking that it is wrong. Unfortunately, this misunderstanding is common. Let us reiterate that Anapanasati is the heart of all four satipatthana in a form that can be readily practiced. (B.3)

**[The Satipatthana Sutta (Majjhima-nikaya #10) follows the same pattern as the Maha but is less detailed and extensive. (ET)]

We have taken time to consider the words "satipatthana" and "Anapanasati" for the sake of ending any misunderstandings that might lead to a narrow-minded lack of consideration for what others are practicing. So please understand correctly that whether we call it satipatthana or Anapanasati there are only four matters of importance: kaya, vedana, citta, and Dhamma. However, in the Mahasatipatthana Sutta there's no explanation of how to practice these four things. It gives only the names of dhammas and expands upon them. For example, the matter of kaya (body) is spread out over corpse meditations, sati-sampajanna in daily activities, the postures, and others more than can be remembered. It merely catalogues groups of dhammas under the four areas of study.

The Anapanasati Sutta, on the other hand, shows how to practice the four foundations in a systematic progression that ends with emancipation from all dukkha. The sixteen steps work through the four foundations, each one developing upon the previous, and supporting the next. Practice all sixteen steps fully and the heart of the satipatthana arises perfectly. In short, the Satipatthana Suttas are only lists of names. The Anapanasati Sutta clearly shows how to practice the four foundations without anything extra or surplus. It does not mention unrelated matters. (B.4)

Anapanasati taking two directions? Not at all. Abdomen as object? Never. Breath as object? The first half of the first tetrad can probably be thought of in this way, but the anapanasati instructions go on to describe many more 'objects' than the breath. One notes rise, fall, and rise & fall in accordance with inhale and exhale as a broad satisampajanna encompasses all six senses (solitude! solitude!). This leads to perception of anicca, and instructions are in the fourth tetrad for that. As one progresses in jhana, experience becomes more and more of an empty breezeway as upekkha develops, and fourth jhana is the time to apply the mind to the destruction of the asavas.

No, the descriptions of anapanasati & satipatthana, as I read them in light of my current studies and experience, tend in somewhat heterodox directions, and I want to be clear about that lest there be grounds for claims that I misrepresent the Dhamma.

"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

I think you're missing my point. As U Pandita and Ajahn Buddhadasa say, there are various ways these things can be used. Sticking slavishly to lists (either in suttas or commentaries) is not of particular importance. These are hints to be applied experientially.

"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

drifting cloud wrote:I have heard some people say that anapanasati is basically a samatha only practice and only satipatanna is vipassana (with the implications that anapanasati might be good for calming thing and developing concentration, but that satipatanna is the "real deal"). On the other hand Buddhadhasa Bhikku's Mindfulness with Breathing: A Manual for Serious Beginners is based off the Anapanasati Sutta, and it seems to go beyond samatha practice.

Near the end of the very book you have posted there is a most relevant passage for you to consider:

d'oh! I don't know how I forgot that section...I guess I have been looking mostly at the earlier, instructional sections of the book. Thanks Twelph for pointing this out!

"And how is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination?

"[1] On whatever occasion a monk breathing in long discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, discerns, 'I am breathing out long'; or breathing in short, discerns, 'I am breathing in short'; or breathing out short, discerns, 'I am breathing out short'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&... out sensitive to the entire body'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out calming bodily fabrication': On that occasion the monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. I tell you, monks, that this — the in-&-out breath — is classed as a body among bodies, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.

"[3] On whatever occasion a monk trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out sensitive to the mind'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out satisfying the mind'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out steadying the mind'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out releasing the mind': On that occasion the monk remains focused on the mind in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. I don't say that there is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing in one of lapsed mindfulness and no alertness, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on the mind in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.

"[4] On whatever occasion a monk trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out focusing on inconstancy'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out focusing on dispassion'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out focusing on cessation'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out focusing on relinquishment': On that occasion the monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He who sees with discernment the abandoning of greed & distress is one who watches carefully with equanimity, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.

"This is how mindfulness of in-&-out breathing is developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination.

daverupa wrote:Since anapanasati is satipatthana, as above, and since satipatthana follows the suppression of the hindrances (MN 125), it seems clear that the hindrances are to be dealt with before engaging with any tetrad of anapanasati. Doubt, for example, is doubt over what makes a state wholesome or unwholesome, not doubt over whether the Dhamma is true or whether there are gods or not.

In any event, samatha and vipassana aren't practices, they are paired qualities which develop due to the gradual training.

Yes, an interesting point on satipatthana following the suppression of the hindrances. I was looking at the Nivarana Sutta ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html ) which suggests that the 4 frames of satipatthana are the means for overcoming the hindrances - though possibly this is referring to a "permanent" abandoning, rather than the temporary suppression required for jhana.

I agree with your point about samatha and vipassana as paired qualities which develop, though I still feel that anapanasati and satipatthana are distinct methods, the former approaching via samatha and the latter approaching via vipassana.

"I ride tandem with the random, Things don't run the way I planned them, In the humdrum."Peter Gabriel lyric

Yes indeed, this is an example of a contradiction, which does happen occasionally in the Nikayas. I have read that satipatthana is to eliminate the hindrances, that jhana does that, and also that the hindrances are dealt with before either of those. This tumultuous vortex at the end of the eightfold path can be worrisome, and it seems to be why meditation methods are so thick on the ground (as opposed to "different strokes for different folks", though that has it's - strongly delimited - place as well).

Since satipatthana seems to be inappropriately missing from nearly every gradual training sutta, given its apparent centrality to the Path, I see that Nivarana Sutta as a later attempt at consolidation (late Anguttara is often high-number Anguttara, on this critiqueable heuristic). Looking at an "earlier" Anguttara Nikaya passage, we find:

AN 5.51 wrote:In the same way, when a monk has not abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, when he is without strength and weak in discernment for him to understand what is for his own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is impossible.

Given this, it seems even right effort is impossible while the hindrances are present, to say nothing of satipatthana and jhana.

---

P.S. Anapanasati is a way of framing ones practice according to satipatthana - satipatthana is not, itself, a practice. (I would go further, and say that satipatthana is a framework for jhana practice, while the jhana pericope is a description of progressive results due to this practice.)

$0.02; this should be enough to buy some grains of salt; the interplay of the various aspects of Samadhi is definitely something we should all continue to investigate.

"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

Yes indeed, this is an example of a contradiction, which does happen occasionally in the Nikayas. I have read that satipatthana is to eliminate the hindrances, that jhana does that, and also that the hindrances are dealt with before either of those. This tumultuous vortex at the end of the eightfold path can be worrisome, and it seems to be why meditation methods are so thick on the ground (as opposed to "different strokes for different folks", though that has it's - strongly delimited - place as well).

P.S. Anapanasati is a way of framing ones practice according to satipatthana - satipatthana is not, itself, a practice. (I would go further, and say that satipatthana is a framework for jhana practice, while the jhana pericope is a description of progressive results due to this practice.)

Yes, it's not always easy to make sense of the way these things are described in the different suttas. And of course the hindrances are one of the mental objects to be observed in the 4th frame of satipatthana, which suggests that they are still present while "doing" satipatthana.

I would have said that anapanasati is the framework for jhana - I'm thinking of the references to piti and sukha in the second tetrad, the references to gladdening and liberating the mind in the 3rd tetrad, and the feel of the 4th tetrad generally. I think of satipatthana primarily as a framework for mindfulness both on and off the cushion.

"I ride tandem with the random, Things don't run the way I planned them, In the humdrum."Peter Gabriel lyric