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That's PR for you. Developers are going to try to sell their decisions as being ok for hardcore people. That's the only sort of publicity that matters at this early stage.

But the developers are employed to make a game that makes ROI, using their best professional opinion about what decisions will do. Now we've all had plenty of arguments about whether the DX formula is profitable in todays market. That's irrelevant to my point. The only point I want to make is that being a massive DX fan doesn't necesarily lead to making DX3 just like DX.

That doesn't mean that being a fan of the original won't come out in some ways ... and we've heard some exciting things ... but it's not going to stop them from trying to replace game mechanics in DX with comparable mechanics that they obviously hope will make more sense to a wider audience (line of sight stealth, cover system, etc).

So I don't believe there is any disconnect. Just developers trying their level best to make and market a modern day triple AAA sequel to DX.

Yes, the initial fights. My point was that sooner or later, you do have to confront these characters, though it's now clear I was wrong about having to kill Gunther and Simons.

...which still doesn't have anything to do with the argument that they were typical boss fights. All I can say is that Warren Spector himself has stated that one of the intentional design principles behind Deus Ex is to allow players to sidestep or work around many of the apparent combat aspects of the game, and to avoid directly rewarding players for killing human beings.

Yes, its probably true that Anna Navarre was intended to actually die (although I would argue that the code that keeps Gunther from mentioning avenging her death implies otherwise), but even then she can be killed by words, and that is not by any means cliche in videogames.

...which still doesn't have anything to do with the argument that they were typical boss fights.

Which is an argument that, once again, I never made. I am well aware of how very different Deus Ex's implementation is, all I am stating is that at their core, these encounters were still based around the concept of "boss fights".

In as much as I guess if you were forced to call them ANYTHING, 'boss fights' is as good a choice as any. "Significant encounter" is slightly closer to the truth, maybe.

I mean, technically you could call the fight with Manderley a boss fight (he is, after all, your actual boss). Of course, that one's optional, but the concept amused me.

So yes: you could say DX has boss fights, but as you note, they're clearly not boss fights in the traditional sense. For a start, they're largely avoidable (not always trivially, mind you), also, they don't 'require NPC to die to open door to continue' or anything, and more importantly: in keeping with the 'keep it largely realistic' ethos, they're not actually very tough. They might be augmented people, and certainly tougher than generic_MJ12troop_09, but they're still people. Fling a LAM at any of them and they...get blown up. Job done. Shoot them in the face with a clip of ammo from almost any gun (alright, not the PS20) and they die.

And IW did the same, which was great. How many other games allow you to 'accidentally' kill the two leaders of the illuminati with a single mis-aimed grenade?

So when the devs suggest they're implementing 'boss fights', it sort of suggests that they don't consider the original games to contain any real boss fights. Which means DX3 might have super-tough flying missile-launching three-stages-of-destruction bosses.

So yes: you could say DX has boss fights, but as you note, they're clearly not boss fights in the traditional sense. For a start, they're largely avoidable (not always trivially, mind you), also, they don't 'require NPC to die to open door to continue' or anything

Except for that one that does.

And IW did the same, which was great. How many other games allow you to 'accidentally' kill the two leaders of the illuminati with a single mis-aimed grenade?

More often than not, those two idiots got killed by the death of their own poison-gas-spewing troops.

And in this case, the fan viewpoints can't simply be dismissed as nostalgia, because we're still playing the game.

I think nostalgia can be a factor in some circumstances, but I can agree with the spirit of what you said. I don't think a movie studio could get away with saying this about a classic movie. No one is going say Kurosawa's techniques aren't important to directors today and fans calling for it are just blinded by nostalgia.

I think that way of thinking should go into game making, too. There are things that contribute to good games and things that don't, and like all great classics, Deus Ex should be a tome of lessons of things that were done right. Update the technology and sensibility, of course, but some lessons are meant to last.

So when the devs suggest they're implementing 'boss fights', it sort of suggests that they don't consider the original games to contain any real boss fights. Which means DX3 might have super-tough flying missile-launching three-stages-of-destruction bosses.

And mechanically augmented ones, no less.

Which is worrisome.

I think that's the general idea that got mine and most other's buttocks in a boss-fights-related cringe. Hopefully, van Hellsing's new bit of René quote below your post is accurate in suggesting that's not the case, and Dugas simply... misspoke.

Which is an argument that, once again, I never made. I am well aware of how very different Deus Ex's implementation is, all I am stating is that at their core, these encounters were still based around the concept of "boss fights".

???

Yeah that's pretty much exactly what we were saying, and I said that the brilliance of Deus Ex is how well the boss fights are woven into the story such that they don't feel like arcade-like boss fights. If you agree why did you object?

Originally Posted by demagogue

I think nostalgia can be a factor in some circumstances, but I can agree with the spirit of what you said. I don't think a movie studio could get away with saying this about a classic movie. No one is going say Kurosawa's techniques aren't important to directors today and fans calling for it are just blinded by nostalgia.

I think that way of thinking should go into game making, too. There are things that contribute to good games and things that don't, and like all great classics, Deus Ex should be a tome of lessons of things that were done right. Update the technology and sensibility, of course, but some lessons are meant to last.

^^^Perhaps the best statement made about Deus Ex on this forum ever. Well said.

Unless you're suggesting that films and games should be treated entirely differently? Or that there's a threshold for 'greatness' above which you're unimpeachable and below which, even if only slightly, you're fair game for being ripped apart and rehashed badly?

If you want a slightly better analogy, it's more like a citizen kane prequel, in which we see rosebud, the 4wes0me neo-renaissance rocket-scooter.

Yeah that's pretty much exactly what we were saying, and I said that the brilliance of Deus Ex is how well the boss fights are woven into the story such that they don't feel like arcade-like boss fights. If you agree why did you object?

Huh? When did I object to that? I just backtracked a bit through my posts in this thread and I can't figure out which one might've given off that vibe.

Sorry, I haven't read through the entire thread, but in response to the 'memorable moments' issue everyone is bringing up:

Part of the awesome strength of DX1's plot unfolding, was the many subtle nuances that you may have missed the first time around, the small details in dialogue, in games that had MUCH BIGGER IMPLICATIONS in a real sense than just plot development.
It was kind of like macrocosm...
Think Icarus, the Echelon system, Everett and DeBeers, the engineering of the men in black, the small details about the NSA...
Small details that made you THINK beyond the game for a moment, small things that connected the authoritarian dystopia hidden under the curtain in Deus Ex with the real world.
Sure, some of the Illuminati things were a little over the top... ie tracer tong counting the sides on the bolts etc ( haha, total Adam West detective stylings )
But there was so much depth in the plot's heavy implications that it didn't even really have to have as many crescendos as other games. Things like the powerplay of Simons and Page, and Simon being appointed to FEMA made you start thinking, which took the place of unsubtle, in your face plot twists... It's like the difference between a good movie and a bad one.

Sure, a few plot twists and turns wouldn't go astray... DX1 actually started to become a little linear by the time you left Hong Kong anyway... But I just hope that the developers realize where DX1's strength of plot was, it was in the minor details, always.