the claims by a ignorant xenophobic people that some actions are considered bad by a supernatural force. For instance, your supposed supernatural force had a thing about menstruation, working on a special day (which Christians can’t agree on), eating shrimp, etc. Sins only tangentially have anything to do with benefit and harm. Orgininal sin is even funnier since it does depend on magic. Oooh, the entire world got like it is from"sin" with a poof.

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Now, if your god does exist, I do wonder about such a god that does nothing and allows a father to be killed by a drunk. As I pointed out, and which you avoided, your bible has nothing about free will, so why not interfere with a miracle yet again? Omnipotent, omniscient surely he can? Or was it part of “God’s Plan” that a man die with four children now grieving?

It would be lovely if every time a thug pulled the trigger on a gun, roses came out instead of bullets. But that is not the nature of reality. It would be lovely, if every time an arsonist struck a match and threw it into a pile of leaves in a forest, it would rain lemonade. But that is not the nature of fire. Or rain. You can't have it both ways. Either we are puppets or we are not. Free will is all over the Bible. How could you possibly miss it?[/quote] Yep, it would be lovely. And yep, it’s not the nature of reality. No miracle is, not even the ones you’ve deluded yourself into believing. You see, you can’t have it both ways, Jane. I do love how you claim “free will is all over the bible” but you haven’t shown one instance of it.

One thing Christians forget is that their god did indeed say that the thought of the deed was just as bad as the deed. So, even if your god cared about free will, one could have it stop people after they thought of something horrible to do and stop them right then; no one else would need to be involved or harmed. But no, this god has conveniently become impotent when its worshippers have to excuse its inaction.

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Demanding constant miracles; intervention to prevent the outcome of our actions, plays havoc with reality. Laws that are constantly circumvented are no longer laws and we can wave bye-bye to science. I can't even imagine what a totally unpredictable world would look like. Well, for one thing, there would be no such thing as a miracle since nothing can be a miracle in a world that does not work in predictable ways.

Ah, so you do agree that your fellow Christians are wrong. So please do show me you are the True Christian here. Yep, constant miracles would mess things up. Miracles of any kind at any time destroy free will. But your god had no problem with this before so why the excuse now? Is it because miracles don’t happen and you have to self-edit your religion to explain why your Pope doesn’t bother going to Lourdes but goes right to a high tech hospital? So much for believing that this god takes care of mankind as much as he takes care of the birds and the lilies. Of course, looking out at the roof across from me, those birds don’t get much god attention either.

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One really doesn't need a decoder ring to read the Bible intelligently and think about what one is reading. However, it is a mistake to suppose that you can pick up an ancient work of literature written over at least 1000 years in a couple of different languages and in different places and expect it to be as transparent as your daily newspaper. It isn't going to be. Not by a long shot.

No, I agree with that. I have read the bible without a decoder ring and read it “intelligently” and think about what it says. And I get something entirely different from you. So, your claim of doing something “intelligently” was only you saying that you believe that only those who agree with your and your own personal version of what the bible says are intelligent. No problem, all types of Christians here make that accusation and again, all of them differ and all of hem have no evidence that their version is the right one.

Pity your god is so impotent and evidently so bloodthirsty that it can’t get past humans who hmmm, use different languages per its will right? and who can’t correct anything about the bible to make it clearer and not have people kill each other over it. I seem to recall Catholics and non-Catholic Christians murdering each other over such arguments about who know what their invisible friend wanted the bestest. The 30 Year War was all about this nonsense, killing hundreds of thousands from hunger, plague, and war.

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"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called "sin" only in an analogical sense: it is a sin "contracted" and not "committed" - a state and not an act. ...

He forgot the part about the pain of childbirth and the subjugation of women towards men.

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"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.Spartan Reply: If.

Demanding constant miracles; intervention to prevent the outcome of our actions, plays havoc with reality. Laws that are constantly circumvented are no longer laws and we can wave bye-bye to science. I can't even imagine what a totally unpredictable world would look like. Well, for one thing, there would be no such thing as a miracle since nothing can be a miracle in a world that does not work in predictable ways.

Thing is; isn't prayer an example of "demanding constant miracles"?

If so, sounds like you're saying that prayers are meaningless.

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However, it is a mistake to suppose that you can pick up an ancient work of literature written over at least 1000 years in a couple of different languages and in different places and expect it to be as transparent as your daily newspaper. It isn't going to be. Not by a long shot.

Well, this much, I certainly agree with. Though you really have to wonder; if the book is so important, why not update it so that the meaning is plain to everyone that reads it today. It's a total failure on god's part not to update The Important Book for 2,000-odd years...

If I were not a Christian, I would still enjoy the Old Testament literature very much. I would still understand how much it tells us about the ancient world, its customs, beliefs, etc. But I would not accord it any more honor than I do the Illiad. Of course, I am a fan of Homer, too...

Welcome to the forum Jane.

I don't think that there are many people here who would disagree with you. The OT is a complex, fascinating document, which speaks volumes about the customs and values of an ancient society.

Where I think you will find disagreement is if you present the God of the OT as representing values that most of us would embrace. I think that most of us who have read the OT find the God to be violent and petty.

For our purposes, it might be enough to say that what Adam and Eve did had profound consequences for all of creation. Their relationship is corrupted, work becomes bitter and hard, and death enters the world. Adam and Eve could not pass on to their descendants what they no longer had-- that uncorrupted, spiritual nature.

But that is kind of the point of it, the injustice. How on earth did two people's "sin"[1] affect all of creation? You cannot say it was a natural consequence. Natural consequences follow regular, natural laws. Throw a rock and it lands according to laws of dynamics. Natural consequence.

This was action taken by yhwh. There is no reason that yhwh could not have said, "you two are in the dog house, but when you have kids, they can come back to Eden." He's allegedly omnipotent and wrote the rules, so he can change them on a whim. Except that ending would not have fit the old hebrews' needs. They were trying to do science, trying to explain the universe around them. And what they saw was people acting like talking, hairless apes.

2350 years later[2], Charles Darwin explained why much more convincingly.

No. Prayer is conversation with God. We make our needs and wants known to him not because he doesn't already know but because we need to be reminded over and over again that God is there and knows our needs better than we do. We know that God may say no. We know that he may give us something totally unexpected that does, in fact, answer our need far better than we could have foreseen. But asking for things is not the major point of prayer. If you look at the structure of the Lord's prayer, you get a pretty good model for what a prayer is supposed to be-- First, praise, prayer for the His will to be done (which obligates us to do our part), then we pray for our needs, ask for the forgiveness of sins and acknowledge that we forgive those who have sinned against us (if we haven't, we have work to do), and we pray for His help in avoiding our own peculiar temptations.

The thing is, it is a particularly obnoxious and modern American phenomenon among Evangelicals to "expect a miracle every day". Miracles still occur and are amply attested but God is not a performing bear. He performs miracles to bring about ends he desires, as needed. But most of the time, normal means are more than sufficient.

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If so, sounds like you're saying that prayers are meaningless.

No, conversation with your best friend and father is never meaningless. It changes us, it reminds us of who God is and what he has done for us.

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Though you really have to wonder; if the book is so important, why not update it so that the meaning is plain to everyone that reads it today. It's a total failure on god's part not to update The Important Book for 2,000-odd years...

You know, I never cease to be amazed when atheists say this-- and I have heard it a million times. The Bible is not a magic book. It was neither written by God, nor was it dictated by God. But more to the point, those of you who hold that opinion are expecting it to bear a weight that no book could ever bear. The interpretation of scripture and elucidating its meaning are the province of the Church, specifically the Magisterium, which is the teaching authority of the Church. There was no Bible for the first hundred or so years of the Church's existence. It was the first bishops and apostles who preached, taught and trained the next generation of teachers, preachers, and bishops. Even if there had been a Bible, before the invention of printing, who could have afforded one? Even with the invention of the printing press, books were fabulously expensive. Then there are issues of literacy, etc. No, Jesus handed teaching authority to the Church. What happens when every one decides what the Bible means for himself? Well, for starters, 34000 plus denominations (supposedly) all claiming to understand it better than anyone else. There is no interpretation so utterly mad, that it can't find an audience. No, updating the Bible would do nothing to change that.

I think there is a great deal more that has been asked but I will have to review what has been written to see what I left unanswered. More later, if need be.

You're right. It is designed to reinforce belief. Think of god as a mind virus that takes over brains. This is one of its defense mechanisms. Prayer is a daily (hourly, whatever) reinforcement, reminder, to keep you immune system (rational mind) from going into effect and ridding the mind of the infestation.

If your god gives me the free will to get drunk tonight, drive my car and kill a father of four, where did the dad's free will go? Why is my free will more important than his? If I have the free will to make mistakes, shouldn't he have had the free will to know when to duck?

Last weekend I was telling my neighbor that my niece had lost her unborn baby. He thinks the world of her and that of course made him sad. But then he said that was better than what his sister had gone through back in the 70's. She had a full term baby who was born with no brain. It lived for about an hour.

If your god gives me the free will to get drunk tonight, drive my car and kill a father of four, where did the dad's free will go?

Oh dear. Really? Free will has to do with making moral choices. You failed when you decided to drink to excess and, especially when you then got in a car. What is the quite foreseeable end of hurtling down the highway in 2000 lb projectile and crashing into another car? What has the victim's free will got to do with knowing when to duck? What moral choice is involved in making that decision?

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Last weekend I was telling my neighbor that my niece had lost her unborn baby. He thinks the world of her and that of course made him sad. But then he said that was better than what his sister had gone through back in the 70's. She had a full term baby who was born with no brain. It lived for about an hour.

Whose free will was involved there?

What moral choice was being made? By whom? What does free will have to do with miscarriages and still births? Those are very painful, sad events. But they do not involve free will.

Just the other day an athlete said after a game that god had helped his team win. I was just assuming this this god guy had other interests besides baseball. And that he might take kindly to his followers and stuff.

So there is no advantage to making good moral decisions because your god will still let you be a victim. Okay, I get it.

Post removed: Preaching.

Jstwebbrowsing,

If you wish to use biblical verses as a part of your arguement or statement, that is fine. But posting only biblical passages is clearly preaching, and not allowed on this forum. Feel free to restate your position using your own words, but please refrain from using only the words of your bible.

« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 10:43:44 PM by ParkingPlaces »

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Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Where did God ever promise to protect us from the harm our fellow humans can do to us? Exactly how would he bring that off while still respecting our free will?

Show me one part of the bible where it even says we have free will.

Come on, we'll go two for one again. It'll give you a chance to make up for your cowardly and pathetic showing in the other thread. I'll start by showing you how there isn't free will.

Number 1Rom.8:29-30 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate.... Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Predestination itself rules out any possibility of free will. As well as this passage clearly says that we do not possess it.

Number 2 Th.2:11-12 God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned.

God intentionally causes people to believe in a falsehood so that they can go to hell.

Actually I'll do a third to your one.

Number 3

Free will cannot exist in a world inhabited by an all-knowing being. In order to possess omniscience god must know the outcome of every choice that is ever or will ever be made by myself or anyone. Which means that events can only ever unfold as he has foreseen them. So there cannot possibly be free will.

I'll do one more for kicks. So keep in mind that this is FOUR pieces of evidence against free will in Christianity to the ONE that you've been asked to provide.

Number 4

The very nature of the Christian worldview negates the concept of free will due to the existence of hell and gods rules. We are given the ability to choose (according to you) however we must make only the choices that god wants us to make or suffer for it eternally. This not "free" will. At best it's circumstantial will. At worst we call it coercion. It is a threat of force designed to make us behave in a manner that we do not necessarily want to behave in. Free will would be if we could decide our own moral codes and our own sense of justice. Instead these are imposed upon us by a tyrannical bully who shouts from on high "Do it or I'll give you a good spanking."

So there you have it. Four pieces of evidence or reasoned arguments that show we do not have free will in the Christian worldview. I'll be waiting.

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"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.Spartan Reply: If.

I do not understand. It is my belief the Bible itself provides all the answers. The Bible itself teaches that a person should not state their opinion above what the Bible itself says. The scriptures quoted were not a wall of text or anything. In my opinon preaching is telling a person what to believe. This is quite the oposite of quoting scripture and letting a person decide for himself.

« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 10:53:14 PM by Jstwebbrowsing »

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Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

I do not understand. It is my belief the Bible itself provides all the answers. The Bible itself teaches that a person should not state their opinion above what the Bible itself says. The scriptures quoted were not a wall of text or anything. In my opinon preaching is telling a person what to believe. This is quite the oposite of quoting scripture and letting a person decide for himself.

From the rules:

No Preaching - For the purposes of this forum, preaching is defined as the posting of religious proclamations/texts or inculcated religious doctrine without intent to engage members on its validity or support with evidence.

You can quote scripture if you want but you have to be able to make your own arguments. You can use it as a support for an argument but simply quoting random bible verses mindlessly is just preaching and counter-productive to a conversation. Also generally unappreciated. If all you can do is quote the bible then essentially what you're saying is that you have no real argument of your own.

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"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.Spartan Reply: If.

So there is no advantage to making good moral decisions because your god will still let you be a victim. Okay, I get it.

The Bible shows that God has subjected all of creation to suffering. Christians do not shy away from this suffering. In fact, all the holy people in the bible suffered greatly, usually at the hands of non-believers. Sometimes, however, the suffering was a result of their own wrong doing.

Jesus himself is a prime example of unwarranted suffering. A perfect man comes into the world and he is killed. The prophets....killed. The apostles.....killed.

However christains are willing to endure this suffering because it is only temporary. The reward for doing so more than compensates. So this is not unjust.

The bible sums it up like this:

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8Consequently I reckon that the sufferings of the present season do not amount to anything in comparison with the glory that is going to be revealed in us. 19For the eager expectation of the creation is waiting for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will but through him that subjected it, on the basis of hope 21that the creation itself also will be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22For we know that all creation keeps on groaning together and being in pain together until now. 23Not only that, but we ourselves also who have the firstfruits, namely, the spirit, yes, we ourselves groan within ourselves, while we are earnestly waiting for adoption as sons, the release from our bodies by ransom. 24For we were saved in [this] hope; but hope that is seen is not hope, for when a man sees a thing, does he hope for it? 25But if we hope for what we do not see, we keep on waiting for it with endurance.

Romans 18-25

« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 11:20:41 PM by Jstwebbrowsing »

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Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

So there is no advantage to making good moral decisions because your god will still let you be a victim. Okay, I get it.

The Bible shows that God has subjected all of creation to suffering. Christians do not shy away from this suffering. In fact, all the holy people in the bible suffered greatly, usually at the hands of non-believers. Sometimes, however, the suffering was a result of their own wrong doing.

Jesus himself is a prime example of unwarranted suffering. A perfect man comes into the world and he is killed. The prophets....killed. The apostles.....killed.

However christains are willing to endure this suffering because it is only temporary. The reward for doing so more than compensates. So this is not unjust.

The bible sums it up like this:

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8Consequently I reckon that the sufferings of the present season do not amount to anything in comparison with the glory that is going to be revealed in us. 19For the eager expectation of the creation is waiting for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will but through him that subjected it, on the basis of hope 21that the creation itself also will be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22For we know that all creation keeps on groaning together and being in pain together until now. 23Not only that, but we ourselves also who have the firstfruits, namely, the spirit, yes, we ourselves groan within ourselves, while we are earnestly waiting for adoption as sons, the release from our bodies by ransom. 24For we were saved in [this] hope; but hope that is seen is not hope, for when a man sees a thing, does he hope for it? 25But if we hope for what we do not see, we keep on waiting for it with endurance.

Romans 18-25

show me a Christian in America that is truly suffering? I MEAN TRULY SUFFERING..bet you can't.

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There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

No. Prayer is conversation with God. We make our needs and wants known to him not because he doesn't already know but because we need to be reminded over and over again that God is there and knows our needs better than we do. We know that God may say no. We know that he may give us something totally unexpected that does, in fact, answer our need far better than we could have foreseen. But asking for things is not the major point of prayer. If you look at the structure of the Lord's prayer, you get a pretty good model for what a prayer is supposed to be-- First, praise, prayer for the His will to be done (which obligates us to do our part), then we pray for our needs, ask for the forgiveness of sins and acknowledge that we forgive those who have sinned against us (if we haven't, we have work to do), and we pray for His help in avoiding our own peculiar temptations.

If prayer is a "conversation" with god, does he talks back? If so, have you ever attempted to transcribe or record his words?

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The thing is, it is a particularly obnoxious and modern American phenomenon among Evangelicals to "expect a miracle every day". Miracles still occur and are amply attested but God is not a performing bear. He performs miracles to bring about ends he desires, as needed. But most of the time, normal means are more than sufficient.

So what are these "miracles" you speak of?

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No, conversation with your best friend and father is never meaningless. It changes us, it reminds us of who God is and what he has done for us.

Again, is it a back-and-forth conversation, or is it just talking to the air?

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You know, I never cease to be amazed when atheists say this-- and I have heard it a million times. The Bible is not a magic book. It was neither written by God, nor was it dictated by God. But more to the point, those of you who hold that opinion are expecting it to bear a weight that no book could ever bear.

The bible is considered to be The One True Guide to Life. That alone means it has a heavy burden of proof.

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The interpretation of scripture and elucidating its meaning are the province of the Church, specifically the Magisterium, which is the teaching authority of the Church. There was no Bible for the first hundred or so years of the Church's existence. It was the first bishops and apostles who preached, taught and trained the next generation of teachers, preachers, and bishops. Even if there had been a Bible, before the invention of printing, who could have afforded one? Even with the invention of the printing press, books were fabulously expensive. Then there are issues of literacy, etc. No, Jesus handed teaching authority to the Church. What happens when every one decides what the Bible means for himself? Well, for starters, 34000 plus denominations (supposedly) all claiming to understand it better than anyone else. There is no interpretation so utterly mad, that it can't find an audience. No, updating the Bible would do nothing to change that.

The bible means whatever someone wants it to mean. Looks like we agree there. However, this means there is nothing special about this book. Thus far, I see no reason why we should uphold the bible over the Koran, the book of Mormon or any other religious text.

So you've gone from Christians suffering at the hands of unbelievers and the suffering of all of creation to Christians get old and die? Yes, Christians have it really hard.

Yes this is suffering for christians. A Christian's hope is for eternal life and this is what is promised if he is faithful. In the meantime, they are subjected to this system of things in which they grow old and die. Please keep in mind that Jehovah's Witensses don't believe all christians go straight to heaven, or ever go to heaven for that matter. Most of these chritians are awaiting a paradise earth. However this paradise earth won't come until this system of things is removed. This is why the Bible says there is a "New heaven and new earth". The new earth won't arrive until the old one is done away with.

There is no need for a christian to ever die now but they must. Consider what is posted above.

"Not only that, but we ourselves also who have the firstfruits, namely, the spirit, yes, we ourselves groan within ourselves, while we are earnestly waiting for adoption as sons, the release from our bodies by ransom."

This apostle is one of those christians that Jehovah's Witnesses believe will go to heaven but this applies also to those that will live forever on a paradise earth. The worst part of the suffering is not what others do to christians. The worst part of a christian's suffering is enduring this world while awaiting the next.

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If you would like to know suffering. Here's a group of Christians burning "witches" in Kenya.

No, there are no Chistians burning witches in Kenya nor have Christians ever burned witches at the stake. Perhaps a "christian" did but not a Christian.

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Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

No, there are no Chistians burning witches in Kenya nor have Christians ever burned witches at the stake. Perhaps a "christian" did but not a Christian.

Ah, the "not a true Christian" argument. How convenient: Just select the nice people for your team and disown the ones whose behaviour embarrasses you.

I think that motivation is the key to sorting this out. If someone commits a crime because they believed they were doing good in the eyes of a specific god, then I think it's quite reasonable to classify them in the set "People who believe in god X." You can, of course, subdivide the set into "People who believe in X and do/do not burn people as witches," but at the top level they still share the same belief.