Is Moroni Baloney?

I’ve heard that there are many similarities between Islam and Mormonism. After a quick search I found these.

Joseph Smith was visited by the angel Moroni. Muhammad was visited by Gabriel.

Both Muhammad and Joseph Smith were given visions.

Both Muhammad and Joseph Smith claimed that Christianity was at one time the true religion, but lost the truth at some point.

Both claimed that the Bible is corrupted and unreliable.

Both wrote their own book, supposedly inspired by God.

Both men claimed to be illiterate, but miraculously wrote their respective “holy books.”

Both the Koran and the Book of Mormon are based on a record stored in heaven. Islam has the “mother book,” and Mormonism has the golden Nephi plates.

Both men were polygamists with many wives.

Both claimed to be the final prophet of God. I was in error when I said Joseph Smith claimed to be the final prophet.

Those are amazing similarities for two religions founded about 1,200 years apart.

2 Corinthians 11:14 comes to mind: For Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. Could it be that Joseph Smith and Muhammad were deceived into thinking they were speaking to an angel? The similarities between these religions suggest that Satan isn’t that creative in founding new religions that twist the truth of the Bible.

I have to say that this type of comparison is disappointing and misleading. Many negative comparisons can be done with any religion. This is not ground breaking information. It is wrong to think that Mormons are unaware of 2 Corinthians 11:14. Joseph Smith himself warned about being deceived by an angel of light. Was Paul’s visitation from Satan? How about Stephens? What about all the visitations that people received in the bible from heavenly beings? Are we going to question those too? God is the same now as he was then, he doesn’t change. So why is it so hard to think that he can still send heavenly messengers?

I can respect the fact that you don’t believe Joseph Smith’s claims (they are bold), but this type of post only serves to reinforce your own beliefs by rationalizing that other people must be wrong. I think it would be much more constructive if you shared what you believe or issues you are struggling with.

Obviously, Islam and Mormonism are contradictory in many ways. So, your comment begs the question: did Joseph Smith see an angel, or was he being deceived or deceitful, or did Muhammed see the angel, or was he being deceived or deceitful? They couldn’t have both seen an angel from God.

If someone sees a vision or an angel, and it’s message is contradictory to the Bible, it’s not from God. Mormonism says we can all become like God (the first lie ever told by the serpent in the garden of Eden), and have our own planet. That seems a little bit unbiblical. You’re staking your life and eternity on Joseph Smith, and his reliability as a prophet.

Katyjane,

Thanks for the info. Apparently, if you’re making up a religion, you can choose to pronounce the words any way you want.

I don’t think it is that simplistic. I think God can talk to whomever he wants. He calls a prophet when he wants, where he wants. He has done it in the past and he’ll do it in the future (He doesn’t change; Amos 3:7). I consider Mohammed, Siddhartha Gautama, Martin Luther etc. to be inspired of God, insofar as they have led people to be loving and charitable. I respect the good they have done.

“And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.” (Genesis 3:4-5)

The serpent (Satan) told Eve she would become as the gods “knowing good and evil”, not that she would be a god. And in truth this did happen. Adam and Eve were in a state of innocents much like a child, but after they partook of the fruit they lost that innocents and were like the gods in the sense that they could now recognize good and evil.

I don’t pretend that Mormonism is perfect. Like every religion it has its warts. If it didn’t then I’d be really surprised. Mormonism is not unbiblical. If it was, I don’t think it would profess a belief in the Bible. Why would a church say a book is inspired of God if it contradicts their beliefs? They wouldn’t. All Christian denominations “interpret” scripture to fit their particular view of things. Mormons I suppose are guilty of the same thing. The difficulty comes in determining whose interpretation is correct. I find ample biblical support for the Mormon view of the Godhead, priesthood, apostasy of Christ church, etc. It’s all in there.

However, I can also acknowledge that other Christian Churches have firm support for their beliefs in the Bible as well (I have to be fair on this point). Unfortunately, the ambiguity of the Bible itself makes “proving” doctrine very difficult for anyone to do. That’s why there are so many Christian denominations. They are all convinced that they’ve got it right and everyone else is wrong. Yes, I know there are a few things they agree on, but if the other things they disagreed on where so minor why are they all still separate from each other? It’s because they are not minor differences. They are major differences that will never be resolved because the Bible is not clear on many points.

I don’t think other churches are evil or leading people astray. They are doing good as they know it and I respect that. I only ask for the same respect. Calling people names and excluding them because you disagree with their beliefs only serves to create hostility and divisiveness among people when what we really need is understanding and love.

D) All other churches are of the Devil! (I Nephi 14:10) This seems to contradict your last paragraph.

G) Salvation by works! (Article of Faith #3) This is what I consider to be one of the main problems. It’s completely contradictory to the Bible (Ephesians 2:8-9). We’re all sinners, who have broken God’s law (the Ten Commandments). If we ever told a lie, we’re liars. If we’ve ever stolen anything, we’re thieves. If we’ve ever looked at a woman with lust, we’re adulterers-at-heart (Matthew 5:27-28). I’m going to stand before God on Judgment Day as a lying, thieving, adulterer. If God is just, He has to punish me with eternity in hell (Revelation 21:8, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10). Heaven is perfect, and He can’t let me in as I am.

He’s so kind that He provided a way for me to get to heaven in spite of my wickedness. Jesus came to live a perfect life. He’s the only one that never sinned. God punished Jesus for my sins. I have to repent and put my faith in Jesus, in order to accept this gift. Any good works I do to try to earn my way into heaven is like trying to bribe the judge. If we’re trusting in our good works, we won’t be saved.

The other issue is that LDS claim Jesus and Lucipher are brothers, along with the rest of us. This is completely unbiblical.

There are many other ways Jesus claimed to be God, and proved himself to be God. I can e-mail you a list of these in a .pdf file.There is only one God. The Father is God. Jesus is God. The Holy Spirit is God. All three have always existed.

So the point is that you need to trust in Jesus alone for your salvation, and you need to make sure you have the right Jesus. The Mormon church is costing people eternity in hell, because they have claimed the Bible has errors. Please, either point out an error, or repent and put your faith in the right Jesus.

Thank you for your concern. I am always “thinking”, trying to understand the Bible which holds within its pages both Mormon and orthodox Christian theology. I also thank you for the call to repentance, as I am a deeply flawed person that needs to ask forgiveness of my Heavenly Father often. Below I have tried to address the valid points you brought up in your last post.

A) Opinion of Brigham Young, base on extrapolation of Mormon doctrine. In other words, not doctrine. Many LDS members accept this explanation because it sounds logical given what they know about God and the plan of salvation (That doesn’t mean its right).

B) Opinion of Bruce R. McConkie, I’m not sure of the exact wording he uses, but the idea that God had sex with Mary is not at all doctrine of the LDS Church and only accepted by those that feel they need some sort of logical explanation of Jesus’ miraculous birth to a virgin Mary could occur. This coupled with the fact that, despite its name, Mormon Doctrine is not a manual for understanding doctrine of the LDS Church. In fact, Bruce R. McConkie published it after being asked not to by an LDS prophet because it contained many doctrinal errors.

C) Interesting scriptures you shared, here are some others:

“I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.” Psalms 82:6

“Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken” John 10:34-35.

“Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” Matt. 5: 48

Why would Christ command us to be perfect LIKE OUR FATHER IN HEAVEN if that was imposible?

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and JOINT-HEIRS WITH CHRIST; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. Rom. 8: 17

D) The church of the devil is any organization that leads people away from God. This verse is not referring to any specific religion(s), despite what Bruce R. McConkie wrote in the first edition of Mormon Doctrine.

YOU REFERENCED Ephesians 2:8-9, “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast in this life.”

The funny thing is that I believe this scripture; works alone do not save us.
This is very scriptural, but I don’t think it means what you think it means. Just like you, Mormons also believe that without grace we cannot be saved (I think this is well established in scripture). It doesn’t matter if we are baptized, lived a good life, perform many ordinances, etc. if there is no grace there is no salvation. We can never “earn” our salvation.

However, God has commanded us to earnestly strive to obey his commandments, be baptized, and endure to the end trusting in Him. I’d say it’s hard to defend that just accepting Jesus saves us. Why would Jesus give us commandments and link our salvation to it, if it was optional. It is not the act of doing the ordinance that saves, but rather the commitment and humility we show to God by obeying his laws. We are expected to live righteously to do good works while in mortality. That’s what Christ did and that is what He expects of us. Sure no one is perfect, but that’s the beauty of grace, we can be saved anyway. Here are a few scriptures that support the idea of required works.

“What doth it profit, my bretheren, though a man say he hath faith and have no WORKS? Can faith save him? The devils also believe and tremble. For as the body without the spirit is dead so faith WITHOUT WORKS is dead also.” James 4:14-26

“For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the DOERS of the law SHALL BE JUSTIFIED.” Romans 2:13-16

“He became the author or eternal salvation unto all them that OBEY Him.” Hebrews 5:5-10

“For the Son of Man shall come in the glory of His Father, with His angels, and then He shall reward every man according to his WORKS.” Matthew 16:27

Baptism is a required work. “Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and IS BAPTISED SHALL BE SAVED; but he that believeth not shall be damned.” Mark 16:15-16

“If ye love me, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS.” John 14:15-21.

“That they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good WORKS.” Titus 3:8

“And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their WORKS.” Revelations 20:12-15,

God counsels us to be baptized
“And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.” Luke 7:29-30.

“… except a man be born of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” John 3:5

“And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his WORK shall be.” Revelation 22:12-15

So it is clear to me that good works are required of us. By doing what we have been commanded we show we are willing to humble ourselves before the Father. Christ who was perfect was baptized, why? He didn’t need a remission of His sins. It was because he always did the will of the Father and by doing so set the example for us. These are not isolated scriptures nor have I given a comprehensive list. Many verses in the LDS scriptures support the ones I quoted above.

YOU SAID, “If we’re trusting in our good works, we won’t be saved.”

True we must trust in Christ not ourselves, that is LDS doctrine.

YOU SAID,, “The other issue is that LDS claim Jesus and Lucipher are brothers, along with the rest of us. This is completely unbiblical.”

True this is only implied in the Bible, not directly stated.
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. Job 1:6, Revelation 12:4, 2Peter 2:4, Jude 1:6

YOU SAID, “Please, either point out an error, or repent and put your faith in the right Jesus.”

The two contradictory accounts of Paul’s vision. Acts 9:7 and Acts 22:9

The two contradictory accounts of Judas’ death Matt 27:5 and Acts 1:18.

There is also the verse in John 1 that says no man can see God. Yet there are numerous scriptures in the Old and New Testament saying that people saw God.

Also, it is widely accepted by archeologists that camels were not domesticated as beasts of burden and earlier than 2000 BC and that they were not widely used until 1000 BC, yet the Old Testament contradicts this.

These are a few examples. Please don’t think that I am deigning the Bible. I love it! It is an extraordinary book that I could not live without, but to say it has no flaws is Quixotic.

I neglected to mention in point A that Joseph Smith also held this view. That is probably where Brigham Young got it from. And by saying “that doesn’t mean it right, I am only admitting that we don’t know not that the statement is false”.

“Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” Matt. 5: 48. That is the standard for getting into heaven: perfection. This verse is in the Sermon on the Mount where Jesus took the Ten Commandments, and showed how God is going to judge even our thoughts. He said lust is adultery (Matt 5:27-28), and hatred is murder (Matt 5:22). When he said, “Be ye therefore perfect.” it was right after he showed how far we are from perfection.

I am perfect. God sees me as perfect. He views me as though I’m clothed in Jesus’ righteousness. This is in spite of me, not because of anything I’ve done.

You are not perfect. You’ve broken God’s law. You’re a liar, a thief, a murderer, an adulterer, etc. Heavenly Father doesn’t view you as perfect, because you don’t have the right Jesus. You’ve believed in an idolotrous version of Jesus. The Bible says you’re going to spend eternity in outer darkness (I John 5:12) if you have the wrong Jesus. You’re betting your eternity that Joseph Smith really did see Moroni.

The Bible also says that the standard for a prophet is that every one of their prophecies must come true (Deuteronomy 18:20-22). Joseph Smith said that the temple of the church would be built in Independence, MO, whithin his lifetime (Doctrine and Covenants 84:2-5). No temple has yet been built there.

Those Bible contradictions you cited are not contradictions. If I’m driving down the interstate, and I see a semi truck jacknife, causing a 10 car pileup, I might go home and tell my wife I saw a truck jacknife, because that was the part that interested me the most. She might watch the news, and they’ll tell about a 10 car pileup, and possibly never mention the jacknifed rig. Both accounts are true. It just depends which part of the story the storyteller wants to tell.

Also, there is a rule in understanding the Bible that you never read one verse. You read it in context, which may require reading the whole chapter or book.

Judas hung himself, and no one took down his corpse, and it rotted and fell headlong into the ground and his intestines fell out.

Paul’s companions heard the voice but did not understand the words.

God told Moses that if he saw his face, Moses would be killed. God allowed Moses to see God leaving, and Moses started shining brightly, because he saw God’s glory. People have seen various aspects of God, but anyone who sees Him face to face is dead.

Archaeologists generally start out doubting the Bible. Later they find evidence confirming the Bible, and change their minds. There was no evidence for the existence of the Hittites, and archaeologists thought the Bible was wrong. It wasn’t until the 1900’s that evidence of their existence was found.

If the Bible says camels were domesticated at a certain time, I believe it. Archaeologists may find the evidence for that someday or maybe they never will. There are entire books written about the archaeological evidence in the Bible.

If God or Jesus came to your home and talked to you, “What would you do”? Would you tell people about it? Well that is what I am doing, telling everyone. And I am not a Liar like Joseph Smith and others. I never saw an Angel, God or Jesus. They are Spirits, you can’t see a spirit. He talked to me in a series of dreams. Thank you, Mel Steffor

This is what he told me. This is an important issue with God. Please read and pass it along. The message is from God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost respectively sent in the Spring of 2006. It is about the meaning of First is Last and Last is First . The message is this:In the morning I go to Heaven. In the afternoon I live my life. In the evening I die, death. What does this mean? In other words this means Birth is Last and Last is Birth. Think of this as a continous circle of life. Birth, Life, Death, Birth. God also said that Judgment will be before Birth in Heaven. AS birth on Earth is painful so will birth in Heaven. Yes, God has recently made contact and he sent a messenger. Spread this message along, just like a chain letter. OH, one more point of interest. Did you know that Mike Douglas died on his birthday? Mel Steffor

Correction: To the meaning of First is Last and Last is First. It means that Birth is Last and Birth is First. Sorry for the error. God talks in symbols and opposites at times so it takes time to figure out what he is saying. Some of his messages are clearer than others, plus they have multiple meanings.

Both men were polygamists with many wives.
Both claimed to be the final prophet of God.

Both of these claims are false in respect to Joseph Smith. He only had one wife, Emma. He never made such a claim as the final prophet. Joseph Smith, Jr. was the first Prophet in this last dispensation of times, not the final.

I don’t know where this man searched for the comparisons, but if we wants accurate hisorical claims he should go directly to both religions’ to assure accurate statements are made rather than some third party with false information.

The Book of Mormon has been re-written many times. & the bible is the only Holy book. Re-writing the bible is a sin. Or claims of others saying they are of God that are not Jesus. Jesus said, “many will come in my name”.

Hey, Mel…you say you can’t see spirits…interesting…my little brother saw a spirit/angel when he was very littel and was able to describe it in detail. You must not believe in the Bible then since there are many instances where men saw angels and conversed with them. Lucifer or Satan himself appeared to Jesus and spoke to him, but wait isn’t Lucifer a spirit too? He sure doesn’t have a body.

Thanks for your comment. Joseph Smith’s polygamy is a historically proven reality. Some of the women he married were already married to other men. Here is a list of his wives with their ages when they were married:

Even if you don’t believe the 2 points you mentioned, you still don’t think those are amazing similarities between Islam and Mormonism?

I’m always interested to ask people this question: If I had 3 minutes to live, and I come up to you and say that I’ve lived a terribly sinful life, and I’m scared of what’s going to happen to me when I die. Please tell me what I must do to get to heaven. What would you tell me about how to get to heaven?

Bill, its simple. If you believe in Jesus read the KJV New Testament. You must forsake all evil in your life. & all that was built in that evil you Will loose, my past life is proof of that. Then confess & be baptized in the name given in the New Testament. Stay away from all occultism, psychics, card readings, crystals used for “new age” actions, any “spirituality” that is not written in the New Testament. I wish you well & pray for you.

Many claim they are Christian. I do no such thing of myself for believing & claiming Jesus is the Christ. I am in no way making allegations of you not being a Christian. I was answer your question as to you wanting help. :)

Genesis 3 : 1 Now the serpent proved to be the most cautious of all the wild beasts of the field that God had made, So it began to say to the woman: “Is it really so that God said you must not eat from every tree of the garden?”

A snake is a reptile and not a beast. That means God is not literally talking about a serpent. A beast is a mammal. This mammal talks. The only mammal that talks is man. Now we know that the Serpent is really a Man.

How do serpents deceive us? We think the snake is a stick until it moves. So we have a stick that talks. The Church speaks through the Cross (stick). So now we know that the Roman Catholic Church is really Satan. Before I go further, a Tree is a Book. Books have leaves. The Book of Knowledge of good and bad is the Bible. This Tree bears two different fruits, good and bad. So what is the fruit on the Tree? Jesus is nailed to the Tree. The Tree Bears Jesus. Jesus is the fruit on the tree (New Testament). God says don’t eat Jesus.

Being naked is a sin. Adam and Eve are sinners. After Adam and Eve digest the Bible they realize they are sinners and hide behind a bush when God comes into the garden. Adam and Eve are naked and ashamed of their sins.

The Crest on the door of the Vatican is a Dragon. The the Roman Catholic Church is telling you exactly who is inside this building before you ever step inside. God is doing the same thing. God is telling you who Satan is before he shows up thousands of years later. Remember God is telling you two stories in one. Gods story is about the past and the present.

What is alo interesting to note is the masonic symbols in the mormon church. They mock Jesus by having apostles & claiming they believe in Jesus. & if you do not convert you will go to hell. The parable of the 10 vergins does not mean to have multiple wives…it is written in the bible that we have no spouses in heaven.

Cultists Quotable Quotes

"First, I’d like to clarify that all cows are holy for us because of the one that saved one of our gods. For us, the cow is a source of purity, productivity and love. We refer cow as mother. We believe all the gods and goddesses live inside the cow, so cow urine is considered holy."