While reading this chapter, I noticed that Perrin's dreams are protected from the DO:

Quote:

TITLE: Eye of the World
CHAPTER: 27 - Shelter From the Storm
The dream began more pleasantly than most he had of late. He was at Alsbet Luhhan's kitchen table, sharpening his axe with a stone. Mistress Luhhan never allowed forge work, or anything that smacked of it, to be brought into the house. Master Luhhan even had to take her knives outside to sharpen them. But she tended her cooking and never said a word about the axe. She did not even say anything when a wolf entered from deeper in the house and curled up between Perrin and the door to the yard. Perrin went on sharpening; it would be time to use it, soon.

Now, Rand and Mat have protection from the DO in their dreams too, according to this interview answer:

Quote:

Type: Weekly Questions | Questioner: Patrick N Franklin TN
Q: Since the first few books, Rand's and Perrin's dreams have been protected. Rand can weave a ward around his dreams. Perrin being a wolfbrother has protected his dreams. How have Mat's dreams been protected since the first half of the series?
A: A side effect of his foxhead medallion, though he doesn't know it. This was not part of the intended purpose of making the medallion; it's a true side effect.

However, Mat only got the medallion in The Shadow Rising and Rand only learned to shield his dreams at around the same time (although at the moment I can't seem to find the exact moment where it happened).

In any case, this means that Mat and Rand had much longer exposure to the DO's dream manipulations than Perrin did and I was wondering if that might maybe be the reason why Perrin's the "sanest" of the three.

Especially starting over again now, I'm noticing perhaps more than I have before that they all start pretty normal. Perrin perhaps a bit more careful and thoughtful than the other two but the diverging paths seem to have made Rand and Mat more similar (=volatile, suspicious, secretive, somewhat paranoid... not that those are bad things when you're dealing with loads of enemies wanting to kill you the whole time) to each other than to Perrin, especially towards the end.

Aside from the natural instincts in the very beginning, do you think the DO's dreams might have had an accumulative effect on Mat and Rand that they didn't have on Perrin?

__________________Homo sapiens non urinat in ventum

Theoryland Siren

Bonded to JWB

A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
-- Winston Churchill

IMO we can blame the taint in Rand's case and as for Mat it's like you say. being suspicious when so many are out to get you is just common sense.

also remember that Mat has always been a trickster. and going by the whole "liars have the hardest time trusting others"-logic, tricksters always expect to be played.

my 5 cents anyway

Through half of tEotW and all of tGH, Mat was also under the influence of the Shadar Logoth dagger. It wouldn't ward his dreams precisely, but it would armor him against anyone infuencing him through his dreams.

Didn't it ward his dreams?
I would expect that a major effect of the Shadar Logoth influence would be protection from such Shadow manipulation. Of course, in return he gets at least an equal amount of paranoid insanity, but that's the breaks.

Didn't it ward his dreams?
I would expect that a major effect of the Shadar Logoth influence would be protection from such Shadow manipulation. Of course, in return he gets at least an equal amount of paranoid insanity, but that's the breaks.

it would be logical, I agree, but there's no confirmation as far as I can find. On the contrary actually, in TEOTW while Mat already has the dagger, he and Rand both have the same dreams both before and after Moiraine's emergency Healing:

Quote:

TITLE: Eye of the World
CHAPTER: 17 - Watchers and Hunters
After a few minutes Mat spoke in a whisper that barely reached Rand. "I wonder what Dav did with that badger." Rand shook his head silently, and Mat hesitated. Finally he said, "I thought we were safe, you know, Rand. Not a sign of anything since we crossed the Taren, and there we were in a city, with walls around us. I thought we were safe. And then that dream. And a Fade. Are we ever going to be safe again?"

Quote:

TITLE: Eye of the World
CHAPTER: 43 - Decisions and Apparitions Rand shared a confused look with Mat. He could remember every second of the dream clearly. It had begun as soon as he closed his eyes, and lasted only minutes.

I suppose I'm trying to figure out how much of Mat and Rand's personality changes come from Shadar Logoth/Rhuidean and the Saidin taint respectively and how much from the early exposure to Ishmael's mindgames in t'a'r. Perrin has his own considerable difficulties with the wolves - but he doesn't seem affected in the same direction as Mat and Rand.

__________________Homo sapiens non urinat in ventum

Theoryland Siren

Bonded to JWB

A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
-- Winston Churchill

good question. possibly a James Bond movie villain syndrome = the need to gloat?

Does not really square with giving orders to all sorts of underlings about killing Mat (and Perrin) at the earliest opportunity. And any gloating he would want to do would be towards LTT, who he considered (almost, of course) an equal, not towards a couple of rural bumpkins.

Two things, first did Ishamael know that Mat & Perrin were important once he figured out Rand was the Dragon Reborn? He could have seen them simply as hanger's on, not worth his time, until that is, they proved they were dangerous.

Secondly, Ishamael wanted to turn Rand. If he did know that Mat & Perrin were important he may have left them alive in the hope or expectation that he could use them.

this is totally off topic, sorry, but the chapter title always gets me, because it's one of the two chapter titles i recognize as song titles. i'm sure y'all recognize more, but i'm old, so i stopped paying attention to new songs some time ago.

anyway, when i saw it again here in this forum, i started looking at the other chapter titles in the series, and realized that several of them (maybe many, my frame of reference is not that good offhand) throughout the series are titles of paintings, books, movies, and the like.

just wondering if anyone has put all of these cultural references in chapter titles together somewhere, and if anybody thinks it means anything. other than that RJ was very well read, loved movies, music, and art?

anyway, probably too silly to bother with, but if anyone knows of such a collection of information, i'd be obliged. thanks.

this is totally off topic, sorry, but the chapter title always gets me, because it's one of the two chapter titles i recognize as song titles.

The other one is off by a word, alas. (I assume you're thinking of Dust on the Wind.) Also, Into the Void is a Black Sabbath song. I can't think of any others. I don't know if any of them are intentional, but Harriet has always come up with the chapter titles.

The other one is off by a word, alas. (I assume you're thinking of Dust on the Wind.) Also, Into the Void is a Black Sabbath song. I can't think of any others. I don't know if any of them are intentional, but Harriet has always come up with the chapter titles.

yeah, i was thinking it was dust in the wind. i still think it's close enough. close enough for me, anyway. shelter from the storm kind of has to be dylan, i think. it was huge in its day, and dylan people never forget. and it's from blood on the tracks, which always maks me think of blood on the stones/rocks. later, in path of daggers, we get fog of war, storm of battles, the book and the painting i think. but there has to be more, like the song you spotted. i'd suspect there's hidden things like that all over the place.

that's very interesting about harriet coming up with them. they may be unintentional, but i suspect some of them at least are homages of a kind. i'll think of them that way, anyway.

TGS, Chapter 49, Just Another Man, is also used as a song title by a number of people (none of whom I've ever heard of, to be honest).
KoD, Chapter 24, Honey in the Tea, may have been inspired by Billie Piper's Honey to the Bee. Then again, maybe not.
KoD, Chapter 33, Nine out of Ten, is the title of a Pet Shop Boys song. Which, I have to say, I'm quite happy not to have recognised, even after Google presented it to me.

I'm sure there are plenty of others. Just have a look at the tables of contents, and then look up any likely looking chapter title together with the keyword "lyrics".

TGS, Chapter 49, Just Another Man, is also used as a song title by a number of people (none of whom I've ever heard of, to be honest).
KoD, Chapter 24, Honey in the Tea, may have been inspired by Billie Piper's Honey to the Bee. Then again, maybe not.
KoD, Chapter 33, Nine out of Ten, is the title of a Pet Shop Boys song. Which, I have to say, I'm quite happy not to have recognised, even after Google presented it to me.

I'm sure there are plenty of others. Just have a look at the tables of contents, and then look up any likely looking chapter title together with the keyword "lyrics".

i only spot the ones that are more from RJ's (and closer to my own) generation, or cultural, er, starting point? not that there's anything wrong with billie piper, i just have trouble seeing harriet or RJ listening to her. could be way wrong, though. um, really, you never heard of glenn campbell? i am officially as old as dirt. . .

i searched without adding "lyrics" to be sure, because some of the references are books, and some are paintings, and i'd guess some are movies, just because there are so many apparent cinematic homages in the series, it would make sense they'd be in the chapter titles.

i was hoping someone else had already done the looking up stuff part, but if you guys don't know about it, i doubt it exists.

I suppose I'm trying to figure out how much of Mat and Rand's personality changes come from Shadar Logoth/Rhuidean and the Saidin taint respectively and how much from the early exposure to Ishmael's mindgames in t'a'r. Perrin has his own considerable difficulties with the wolves - but he doesn't seem affected in the same direction as Mat and Rand.

I think Hopper told Perrin that his dreams were being influenced by someone close to him. Maybe the dreams they were having was because they were linked together as taveren.

How that would affect their personality I have no idea but Mat makes a decision not to kill a woman no matter what in CoT (after the Renna episode)at about the same time that Perrin decides to throw away the axe after chopping off the aielman's hand.

Both episodes were emotionally significant I think but was the pattern driving them indepently to these decisions or did one event influence the other?

There are other examples of the three boys doing similar things at about the same time, but I don't recall any that had this sort of emotional significance to it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enigma

Two things, first did Ishamael know that Mat & Perrin were important once he figured out Rand was the Dragon Reborn?

I figure Ishamael won't go face to face against a taveren unless its absolutely necessary, hence the orders to the other forsaken.

__________________May the Dragon live on in the hearts of all true believers.

TGS, Chapter 49, Just Another Man, is also used as a song title by a number of people (none of whom I've ever heard of, to be honest).
KoD, Chapter 24, Honey in the Tea, may have been inspired by Billie Piper's Honey to the Bee. Then again, maybe not.
KoD, Chapter 33, Nine out of Ten, is the title of a Pet Shop Boys song. Which, I have to say, I'm quite happy not to have recognised, even after Google presented it to me.

I'm sure there are plenty of others. Just have a look at the tables of contents, and then look up any likely looking chapter title together with the keyword "lyrics".

Eh, this is all rather off-topic, but a quick search found that the line "Honey in the tea" is used in the song 'In The Drink' - Barenaked Ladies.
I'd like to sip the sap from your tree
And the honey in the tea
Dripping amber drips
Patiently