Tesla 3 series killer Model E coming to Detroit in 2015

The Model S fires haven't slowed Tesla down in the development of new models. Their Model E, should be debuted next year at the 2015 Detroit Auto Show.

According to Tesla's Chief Designer, Franz von Holzhausen, this 3rd generation platform Model E, 'Leads Tesla to a new level. The car will show what we are about, to build electric cars for the masses.' The Model E be more affordable. It will also utilize the much of the same technology as the S, but wrapped up in a smaller package, to compete with the BMW 3 Series.

Given the flowing design of the Model S, I'm looking forward to seeing what the Model E will look like. One thing is for sure, going by an earlier interview with von Holzhausen, it won't look anything like BMW's i3. You can read about that here.

Not for me either, unless I just needed to get to the supermarket and back. I'll take a wait and see approach until the manufacturers come up with truly viable sustainable electric power system.

gkr778 commented: December 20, 2013, 11:39 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by beden1

Not for me either, unless I just needed to get to the supermarket and back. I'll take a wait and see approach until the manufacturers come up with truly viable sustainable electric power system.

What do you think about BMW's 'i' lineup thus far, in comparison to Tesla?

beden1 commented: December 20, 2013, 12:01 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by gkr778

What do you think about BMW's 'i' lineup thus far, in comparison to Tesla?

I have only read about the i8 and it appears to have a great looking design.

The cost to build a national infrastructure to support electric vehicles would be exceedingly expensive and complex, as well as time consuming to get local zoning approvals, etc. IMO, early adopters are paying for the rollout of these cars, because I can't understand how a Tesla is worth anywhere near what they are charging. Less complex should also equate to less expensive, and so far, this is not the case.

I have to give these cars an A for effort but a big question mark as to whether the technology will be viable for the long term. Time will tell, but as I said, I'm happy to wait this one out. One thing is for sure, the cars will only get cheaper in time.

BentZero commented: December 20, 2013, 12:06 pm

Reminds me of a Honda accord coupe with a Chevy rear end. I like the Honda part. Not sure I like the Chevy part.

krash commented: December 20, 2013, 12:17 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elk

Why, not?

I don't like to drive around in something that's like my iPhone. Always worrying about the batteries, trying to find a place to charge it, and waiting around (maybe for hours) before you can use it.

Combustion engines are superior. Plenty of gas stations and it only takes less than 5 minutes to refill them.

thaibruin commented: December 20, 2013, 12:33 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by beden1

Not for me either, unless I just needed to get to the supermarket and back. I'll take a wait and see approach until the manufacturers come up with truly viable sustainable electric power system.

The Tesla Model E is supposed to have at least a 200 mile range. Beyond that, Elon Musk is planning to build a network of supercharger stations that will get your car to at least 75% capacity in 20-30 minutes.

I think this is the future of automobiles. not entirely sure it'll completely take over the combustion engine in my lifetime, but it'll happen.

krash commented: December 20, 2013, 12:41 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaibruin

Beyond that, Elon Musk is planning to build a network of supercharger stations that will get your car to at least 75% capacity in 20-30 minutes.

When they get it down to the same time it takes to pump some gas, that's when I'll be interested.

BradSCantor commented: December 20, 2013, 1:13 pm

I want one. Where do I sign up?

thaibruin commented: December 20, 2013, 1:20 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by krash

When they get it down to the same time it takes to pump some gas, that's when I'll be interested.

Not sure you're taking into consideration the fact that you can just plug it in when you get home at the end of the day and not even think about going to a gas station. With a 200+ mile range, an average commuter wouldn't ever need to worry about it unless they're going on a long haul trip. And unless you're travelling long distances ALL the time, you'd actually be saving time by not having to stop into a gas station.

I get that you're completely angry and put off by the idea of an electric car, but this is entirely feasible for a majority of commuters out there. The only thing holding it back? Cost. Simple as that. Where I live, there is literally a Model S on every block. But where I live, people also make lots and lots of money.

krash commented: December 20, 2013, 1:54 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaibruin

Not sure you're taking into consideration the fact that you can just plug it in when you get home at the end of the day and not even think about going to a gas station. With a 200+ mile range, an average commuter wouldn't ever need to worry about it unless they're going on a long haul trip. And unless you're travelling long distances ALL the time, you'd actually be saving time by not having to stop into a gas station.

I get that you're completely angry and put off by the idea of an electric car, but this is entirely feasible for a majority of commuters out there. The only thing holding it back? Cost. Simple as that. Where I live, there is literally a Model S on every block. But where I live, people also make lots and lots of money.

LMAO! I am hardly angry. In fact, I am in a great mood. Off for the holidays, my kids are home from college. Things couldn't be better.

Both my kids attend colleges more than 400 miles away. A 200 mile range is a joke to me.

Bimmerfest, it cracks me up. People on here are so full of themselves and act like they know everything about everything, including the moods of other posters. It's really pathetic.

sol123 commented: December 20, 2013, 1:59 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaibruin

Not sure you're taking into consideration the fact that you can just plug it in when you get home at the end of the day and not even think about going to a gas station. With a 200+ mile range, an average commuter wouldn't ever need to worry about it unless they're going on a long haul trip. And unless you're travelling long distances ALL the time, you'd actually be saving time by not having to stop into a gas station.

I get that you're completely angry and put off by the idea of an electric car, but this is entirely feasible for a majority of commuters out there. The only thing holding it back? Cost. Simple as that. Where I live, there is literally a Model S on every block. But where I live, people also make lots and lots of money.

If you live in the city and park on the street your F!@#$d \

Ps I live in the city and park on the street. So no electric cars for me

thaibruin commented: December 20, 2013, 1:59 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by krash

LMAO! I am hardly angry. In fact, I am in a great mood. Off for the holidays, my kids are home from college. Things couldn't be better.

Both my kids attend colleges more than 400 miles away. A 200 mile range is a joke to me.

Bimmerfest, it cracks me up. People on here are so full of themselves and act like they know everything about everything, including the moods of other posters. It's really pathetic.

Please take all the Tesla's that are on every block where you live, and shove them straight up your ass.

Umm touchy much? Happy holidays!

Technic commented: December 20, 2013, 2:03 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaibruin

The Tesla Model E is supposed to have at least a 200 mile range. Beyond that, Elon Musk is planning to build a network of supercharger stations that will get your car to at least 75% capacity in 20-30 minutes.

I think this is the future of automobiles. not entirely sure it'll completely take over the combustion engine in my lifetime, but it'll happen.

That's the same range as my E92 M3.

I'm planning to get an i3 while I wait for the second/third year F80 M3 initial pricing insanity to calm the hell down. Why an i3? I drive much less than 100 miles a day -sometimes less than 10 miles. The gas savings alone are in the $250 a month range compared with my M3. The monthly payment should be way less than 50% of my M3's (base i3, no range extender, only PDC/rear camera as option). It will be charged at home during the nights and I heard from my local dealer that BMW is setting up a program that will provide loaners by request if your plan is to drive more than 100 miles in a day. I do not know if this is accurate or if so, the full details. But I think that BMW may be into something here -at least initially.

I drove the little sucker and obviously it is no M3, but it is like the 2007 GTI that I used to own. In my test drive I hit 67mph in a deserted 35mph strip that got the salesperson pinned down to the seat upon accelaration just before a 90 degree turn. Brake and steer, the i3 did not flinch. The salesperson was scared first then impressed. Good. This is no floating battery, it is a BMW.

I do not care about the exterior styling too much, but it is not as unattractive as I thought it was going to be in person. This post-E36/E39 BMW styling really does not photograph well at all. The interior is extremely nice for $42,000, even more so than the F30 -just because once you realize that you are inside a carbon fiber tub with plastic panels then suddenly everything is nice. I cannot say the same about the Tesla interior -a 6-Series GC interior is in another planet in quality and appearance compared with that thing, regardless of the Plasma-TV-like center console of the Tesla.

I do expect this Tesla 3-Series "killer" to actually make a dent in the i3 sales instead if the price is right. But Tesla as a company have not convinced me yet to spend a couple of years with either of those, much less my money.

wake commented: December 20, 2013, 2:08 pm

I like the Tesla approach of making appealing cars that are also electric much more than BMW and others approach of making cars that scream '' look at me, I'm electric ''.

I take too many long trips for this to be the best option for me right now. If it were more cost effective I could probably make it work by swapping cars with my wife, but I wouldn't be willing to make that sacrifice AND spend more.

I like the Tesla approach of making appealing cars that are also electric much more than BMW and others approach of making cars that scream '' look at me, I'm electric ''.

I take too many long trips for this to be the best option for me right now. If it were more cost effective I could probably make it work by swapping cars with my wife, but I wouldn't be willing to make that sacrifice AND spend more.

And this was my point that Krash apparently decided to ignore before he went off about placing cars into a place they clearly would not fit simply because I used the word "angry". And his response clearly shows that he was not. My apologies Krash. You are definitely full of holiday cheer and spirit.

Even with a 200+mile range, it won't be for everyone, especially those who have long commutes on a normal basis. And it also won't ever hit mass market appeal until it's actually affordable and not limited to people who have lots and lots of money, which clearly, I do not have as I'm not driving in one. And I probably won't ever drive one til it has that range (or better) and comes in at or under 328i prices and that's just going to be a long ways off.

Michael Schott commented: December 20, 2013, 2:29 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by beden1

I have only read about the i8 and it appears to have a great looking design.

The cost to build a national infrastructure to support electric vehicles would be exceedingly expensive and complex, as well as time consuming to get local zoning approvals, etc. IMO, early adopters are paying for the rollout of these cars, because I can't understand how a Tesla is worth anywhere near what they are charging. Less complex should also equate to less expensive, and so far, this is not the case.

I have to give these cars an A for effort but a big question mark as to whether the technology will be viable for the long term. Time will tell, but as I said, I'm happy to wait this one out. One thing is for sure, the cars will only get cheaper in time.

I suggest you read on what Tesla has done and plans to do for their own nationwide chain of charging stations. It's far from complete but they have a very comprehensive and well organized plan.

gkr778 commented: December 20, 2013, 2:34 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by sol123

If you live in the city and park on the street your F!@#$d \

Ps I live in the city and park on the street. So no electric cars for me

When they get it down to the same time it takes to pump some gas, that's when I'll be interested.

Frankly, like the gas we are using, you are a dinosaur in thinking that our current cars are sustainable for the next few decades. Electric and hybrid cars are the future and if not because of the scarcity of fossil fuels then because of CAFE requirements. If you haven't followed, plug in electric cars and hybrid vehicles are becoming ever more common and the infrastructure to support plug in vehicles is growing. We are not yet at the point where you can drive a plug in electric for long distances and battery technology has a long way to go but this is the future and it's not that far away. Look at what BMW is working on for a snapshot. The $42K i3 is a landmark car for them. Decent range, very green and 0-60 in about 7 seconds.

gkr778 commented: December 20, 2013, 2:52 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

If you haven't followed, plug in electric cars and hybrid vehicles are becoming ever more common and the infrastructure to support plug in vehicles is growing. We are not yet at the point where you can drive a plug in electric for long distances and battery technology has a long way to go but this is the future and it's not that far away. Look at what BMW is working on for a snapshot. The $42K i3 is a landmark car for them. Decent range, very green and 0-60 in about 7 seconds.

Progress in EV and HEV technology has been impressive in the past decade.

My F30 320i is the first gasoline powered automobile I have purchased, and I intend for it to be the last.

EC7 commented: December 20, 2013, 3:28 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaibruin

The Tesla Model E is supposed to have at least a 200 mile range. Beyond that, Elon Musk is planning to build a network of supercharger stations that will get your car to at least 75% capacity in 20-30 minutes.

I think this is the future of automobiles. not entirely sure it'll completely take over the combustion engine in my lifetime, but it'll happen.

Yes, it will most definitely have a minimum of 200 miles range. Tesla found out that there was little to no interest in the 40 kWh which had 160 miles so they decided to discontinue it.

As for the charging network, there's an even bigger plan - "Battery Swap". Currently the superchargers are strategically positioned for long distance trips, not specifically for day to day local driving (unless you live near one.).

This is definitely the future. Just think of the time when the Model T was introduced and took over horse-drawn carriages.

floydarogers commented: December 20, 2013, 3:35 pm

Tesla's have a very loyal following. (Don't know why, since Elon Musk is an @sshole. A smart one, but still.)

The i3 is not a direct competitor to any Tesla, including this new one.

I have friends that have pretty much all the electric vehicles available (Tesla, Leaf, Volt); they all love them, and have no problems getting charged up (but then Seattle/WA has lots of charging stations.) My wife is thinking of buying an i3; not sure if it's big enough to replace the Toyota Highlander. Has enough range (although I'm not sure our new condo has a charging station in the garage.) Price is right, too.

elistan commented: December 20, 2013, 3:49 pm

Depending on price, I'd certainly look at a Tesla when it comes time to replace the 328i. Selfishly, it'd just be a financial decision, assuming it's as fun to drive as the competition, not an environmental decision. They look good, they are supposedly fun to drive, and their running costs are cheap. (Especially since I pay under 8 cents per kWh.) It's just that the initial purchase price is so high, they're way more expensive than what I want to spend on a utility car. The 200 mile range on a single charge doesn't bother me.

The Tesla lineup:
Model S
Model E
Model X

Bimmer dreamer commented: December 20, 2013, 4:12 pm

If my memory serves me correctly, Franz von Holzhausen designed the Pontiac Solstice. In my opinion, the design of the Solstice is still a sharp looking car.

I am interested to see what he comes up with that will compete with the 3 series.

beden1 commented: December 20, 2013, 5:07 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

I suggest you read on what Tesla has done and plans to do for their own nationwide chain of charging stations. It's far from complete but they have a very comprehensive and well organized plan.

I watched a TV special covering Tesla's plans for, actually, battery swapping stations. This is the best idea I've listened to yet, but it will not be without it's naysayers and it will be enormously expensive to launch nationwide.

Tesla's idea is for their customers to drive their cars into the station, where just like Jiffey Lube, the car is driven into the shop and parked over an open floor. A robotic handling device takes out the battery cells from your car and replaces them with freshly charged cells. You then drive off with a big smile on your face.

My first question is how are they going to get the municipal approvals to open these centers when they have the local tax paying car dealerships screaming loudly all at the same time? Then, long term issue I see is where do they dispose of all of these batteries once they are no longer able to be recharged. I can envision my town saying that we don't want them sent to our trash dumps for fear of long term pollution and health risks. Then, where does Tesla get the money to build, or lease and convert these swapping stations throughout the country. I hope they are not counting on the US Government's investment, because I think we are all fed up with the Fed wasting our hard earned dollars on pipe dreams.

EC7 commented: December 20, 2013, 5:10 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by elistan

Depending on price, I'd certainly look at a Tesla when it comes time to replace the 328i. Selfishly, it'd just be a financial decision, assuming it's as fun to drive as the competition, not an environmental decision. They look good, they are supposedly fun to drive, and their running costs are cheap. (Especially since I pay under 8 cents per kWh.)

From a financial perspective:

- I hope there will still be plenty of Federal and State incentives by the time the Model E is out on the market.

- Another thing to consider is the $600 annual routine maintenance which is not included in the car's price.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elistan

It's just that the initial purchase price is so high, they're way more expensive than what I want to spend on a utility car. The 200 mile range on a single charge doesn't bother me.

Did you factor in the 'what's your time worth' to lower the effective cost?

mammothskier commented: December 20, 2013, 5:14 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by EC7

Yes, it will most definitely have a minimum of 200 miles range. Tesla found out that there was little to no interest in the 40 kWh which had 160 miles so they decided to discontinue it.

They found that people who spend ~$70k for a car are ready to spend $10 more for at least 60kWh battery. I'm not sure the same math will work in $40k-$50k segment.

They also need to differentiate Model S and Model E. The battery is the most expensive component in their cars, although progress is battery tech will likely result in significant increase in energy density.

If Model E will have 200mi range, Model S needs to get to 400 to justify almost 2x price difference

beden1 commented: December 20, 2013, 5:35 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

Frankly, like the gas we are using, you are a dinosaur in thinking that our current cars are sustainable for the next few decades. Electric and hybrid cars are the future and if not because of the scarcity of fossil fuels then because of CAFE requirements. If you haven't followed, plug in electric cars and hybrid vehicles are becoming ever more common and the infrastructure to support plug in vehicles is growing. We are not yet at the point where you can drive a plug in electric for long distances and battery technology has a long way to go but this is the future and it's not that far away. Look at what BMW is working on for a snapshot. The $42K i3 is a landmark car for them. Decent range, very green and 0-60 in about 7 seconds.

A quote from the article: "In fact, of all the EVs available, the Model S is the least climate-friendly EV"

I am referring to the i3.

terrystu commented: December 20, 2013, 5:58 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaibruin

Not sure you're taking into consideration the fact that you can just plug it in when you get home at the end of the day and not even think about going to a gas station. With a 200+ mile range, an average commuter wouldn't ever need to worry about it unless they're going on a long haul trip. And unless you're travelling long distances ALL the time, you'd actually be saving time by not having to stop into a gas station.

I get that you're completely angry and put off by the idea of an electric car, but this is entirely feasible for a majority of commuters out there. The only thing holding it back? Cost. Simple as that. Where I live, there is literally a Model S on every block. But where I live, people also make lots and lots of money.

Sorry, but its not "simple as that". New ideas rarely are. So, here's a reality check:

First of all a 200 mile range means 100 miles in each direction. Doesn't sound quite so appealing, does it?

Next, if you read the fine print, the so-called 200 mile range is actually described by Tesla as a "maximum range". Accelerate too enthusiastically a few times and that range is cut back substantially. Oh, and do you ever use your heat? A/C? radio? heated seats? Every time you turn on an electric accessory, you have cut into that range drastically.

As for the national network of charging stations; well, thats as laughable as cheap health insurance through obamacare. Our national power grid is already operating at the outer limits of capacity and it has been estimated that the cost to improve it would register in the
hundreds of billions.

I apologize, I know reality is seldom as pleasurable as fantasy. (Please refer to my sig)

EC7 commented: December 20, 2013, 6:02 pm

.

EC7 commented: December 20, 2013, 6:04 pm

Quote:

"3 series killer". lol

almost every other sport sedan is tipped to be the '3 series killer' because the 3 series is 'the benchmark'.

perhaps Tesla should consider 'smoke the competition' slogan

mammothskier commented: December 20, 2013, 6:11 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by beden1

A quote from the article: "In fact, of all the EVs available, the Model S is the least climate-friendly EV"

No need for article to determine this fact. Tesla is the heaviest EV available with the highest performance. It is going to consume more electricity per mile driven than smaller less powerful EVs.

wake commented: December 20, 2013, 6:15 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mammothskier

No need for article to determine this fact. Tesla is the heaviest EV available with the highest performance. It is going to consume more electricity per mile driven than smaller less powerful EVs.

That was my thought too, next you will tell me the 750li is worse than a 320i.

beden1 commented: December 20, 2013, 6:21 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mammothskier

No need for article to determine this fact. Tesla is the heaviest EV available with the highest performance. It is going to consume more electricity per mile driven than smaller less powerful EVs.

They also discussed the pollution emitted during the manufacture of the car and batteries, as well as the pollution emitted during driving. The Toyotas came in the greenest to make and operate, but then there is also the battery disposal that has everyone concerned. I think the point made about electricity generation pollution is very valid as well.

thaibruin commented: December 20, 2013, 6:26 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by terrystu

Sorry, but its not "simple as that". New ideas rarely are. So, here's a reality check:

First of all a 200 mile range means 100 miles in each direction. Doesn't sound quite so appealing, does it?

Next, if you read the fine print, the so-called 200 mile range is actually described by Tesla as a "maximum range". Accelerate too enthusiastically a few times and that range is cut back substantially. Oh, and do you ever use your heat? A/C? radio? heated seats? Every time you turn on an electric accessory, you have cut into that range drastically.

As for the national network of charging stations; well, thats as laughable as cheap health insurance through obamacare. Our national power grid is already operating at the outer limits of capacity and it has been estimated that the cost to improve it would register in the
hundreds of billions.

I apologize, I know reality is seldom as pleasurable as fantasy. (Please refer to my sig)

I'm not sure why this 200 mile range is so ludicrous to people. 100 miles each way? Yes, that is very appealing when my commute is 15 miles each way. The majority of people I know have at most a 40 mile commute each way to work.

And why is making what Tesla has done even more efficient such a "fantasy"? It was ludicrous to think a car could have more than 10hp at one point in time and here we are with nearly 500hp Corvettes cracking almost 30mpg.

I never said that this is something that will happen overnight. I even said that it likely won't happen in my lifetime, but it's something I do see happening.

beden1 commented: December 20, 2013, 6:29 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaibruin

I'm not sure why this 200 mile range is so ludicrous to people. 100 miles each way? Yes, that is very appealing when my commute is 15 miles each way. The majority of people I know have at most a 40 mile commute each way to work.

And why is making what Tesla has done even more efficient such a "fantasy"? It was ludicrous to think a car could have more than 10hp at one point in time and here we are with nearly 500hp Corvettes cracking almost 30mpg.

I never said that this is something that will happen overnight. I even said that it likely won't happen in my lifetime, but it's something I do see happening.

I think we will have personal flying cars like the Jetsons, but powered by recycled table scraps before electric powered cars become mainstream.

BentZero commented: December 20, 2013, 7:05 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by terrystu

Sorry, but its not "simple as that". New ideas rarely are. So, here's a reality check:

First of all a 200 mile range means 100 miles in each direction. Doesn't sound quite so appealing, does it?

Next, if you read the fine print, the so-called 200 mile range is actually described by Tesla as a "maximum range". Accelerate too enthusiastically a few times and that range is cut back substantially. Oh, and do you ever use your heat? A/C? radio? heated seats? Every time you turn on an electric accessory, you have cut into that range drastically.

As for the national network of charging stations; well, thats as laughable as cheap health insurance through obamacare. Our national power grid is already operating at the outer limits of capacity and it has been estimated that the cost to improve it would register in the
hundreds of billions.

I apologize, I know reality is seldom as pleasurable as fantasy. (Please refer to my sig)

Man, you need to chill. Anyone buying this is likely to have a second car. If you are regularly driving 100 miles one way per day then this car is definitely not for you. I drive 20 miles to work and then back, so something like this is good for me. Probably good for millions of others too. It may be hard to believe, but your reality isn't shared by everyone.

I also don't like driving long distances, so a nice little break after a 200 mile stint is fine with me. Until the charging stations are more prevalent I'll just drive my other car. Simple as that.

BradSCantor commented: December 20, 2013, 11:22 pm

Quote:

As for the national network of charging stations; well, thats as laughable as cheap health insurance through obamacare. Our national power grid is already operating at the outer limits of capacity and it has been estimated that the cost to improve it would register in the
hundreds of billions.

This is not true. Look it up... The energy market is becoming increasing deregulated. There is money to be made there and private companies are getting more and more involved. Not to mention, charging a few thousand Tesla's wouldnt even register on the national scale of energy usages.

Quote:

I think we will have personal flying cars like the Jetsons, but powered by recycled table scraps before electric powered cars become mainstream.

My guess is that within 15 years they will be commonplace, if not the norm. (maybe 20 to be conservative)

beden1 commented: December 20, 2013, 11:56 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BradSCantor

This is not true. Look it up... The energy market is becoming increasing deregulated. There is money to be made there and private companies are getting more and more involved. Not to mention, charging a few thousand Tesla's wouldnt even register on the national scale of energy usages.

My guess is that within 15 years they will be commonplace, if not the norm. (maybe 20 to be conservative)

I think much will depend on which political party is in control in the coming years as to whether or not electric powered cars stand any real chance of surviving. They may get regulated out of the market.

I have an electric golf cart coupe parked in my garage in Florida. It has running lights, horn, windshield wipers, Cragar mag wheels, cooler, full Eisenglass enclosure, six battery banks, fishing rod holders, and enough storage space to hold two full sized golf bags. I've done some tweaking so it hits 30MPH on a straightaway and it's had enough reserve power to complete 27 holes of golf, run to the 19th hole, and get me back to my house without dying. It takes about an hour for a full recharge.

socal59 commented: December 21, 2013, 12:07 am

In the LA/Orange curtain area, there are tons of Telsas, plug in Prius's, Volts and Leafs. Charging stations at various malls, super markets, city hall parking lots, and I see many charging in driveways. Considering they weren't even around 5 years ago, the pace is moving pretty rapid. Electric cars are not for every one at this time, but it's funny how some on this board get so angry about anything that isn't oil burning and don't mention government investments or assistance in conjunction with moving the industry along. Out of subject, read how the Korean government has helped Samsung and other companies become the giants they are becoming.

Sent from BimmerApp mobile app

beden1 commented: December 21, 2013, 12:48 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by socal59

In the LA/Orange curtain area, there are tons of Telsas, plug in Prius's, Volts and Leafs. Charging stations at various malls, super markets, city hall parking lots, and I see many charging in driveways. Considering they weren't even around 5 years ago, the pace is moving pretty rapid. Electric cars are not for every one at this time, but it's funny how some on this board get so angry about anything that isn't oil burning and don't mention government investments or assistance in conjunction with moving the industry along. Out of subject, read how the Korean government has helped Samsung and other companies become the giants they are becoming.

Sent from BimmerApp mobile app

Most of the alternative energy companies, if not all, that our government invested in went bankrupt.

GeoX750Li commented: December 21, 2013, 12:51 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by socal59

In the LA/Orange curtain area, there are tons of Telsas, plug in Prius's, Volts and Leafs. Charging stations at various malls, super markets, city hall parking lots, and I see many charging in driveways. Considering they weren't even around 5 years ago, the pace is moving pretty rapid. Electric cars are not for every one at this time, but it's funny how some on this board get so angry about anything that isn't oil burning and don't mention government investments or assistance in conjunction with moving the industry along. Out of subject, read how the Korean government has helped Samsung and other companies become the giants they are becoming.

Sent from BimmerApp mobile app

Around my office in the Bay area and even in my home in the Midwest, a Tesla Model S is already pretty commonplace. The Model S seems like its already outselling 7 Series, S Class and A8. There would probably be even more pervasive, if Tesla could make them faster.

I don't have any illusions about the environmental benefits of electric cars, even though Illinois has cheap electricity with lots nuclear and polluting coal power. At least electric cars will send less money to the middle east and if nothing else, leave more fuel for my gas guzzlers.

AndrewEngineer commented: December 21, 2013, 8:51 am

My Director has a model S -- they are absolutely impressive. If Tesla can introduce a cheaper version of the car, they will gain mass appeal. Right now the selection of electric cars is "boring" and uninspiring to drive -- Tesla can up the ante with an inspiring & hopefully awesome design and gain more mass appeal.

And I realize for some "200 miles? that's ridiculous!" --- maybe for you, but for the vast majority of public (90%?) it would work perfectly most of the time (90%?). Your average person drives to work and back, and shops/malls on weekends -- that's not a lot of mileage. You plug in every night, and every day you start with 200 miles. For the masses... that far exceeds needs.

And let's all be honest, long-term trends are at play here. You may not like it, you may not prefer it... but over the next few decades gas cars will phase out to a niche and electric will become mainstream.
*Demographics: 40s/50s/etc may love their gas guzzlers; but spend some time with teens/20s (ie: the future) --- they are incredibly more interested in energy efficiency and saving the environment
*Gas fuel: it is much more expensive than buying electricity for a car; the big negative of electric is upfront purchase cost -- but this gap will close as the reach economies of scale
*Prevalence/acceptance: Think 10 years (2003/2004).... there was NO available electric car to purchase for the masses. If you asked anyone if they'd drive or buy an electric car, most would probably find it amusing but unrealistic. Look at where we are today --- Prius everywhere, Leafs, Volts, etc. As more manufacturers and models become available in price ranges that the masses pay (ie: $20k-$30k cars) -- you will see a massive shift to electric.
*Keep in mind this being a BMW forum, by default this is a niche of the overall market. Most consumers (think Honda, Toyota, etc) are more interested in MPG, price, and creature comforts than performance or power. (although it can be noted that electric motors can be quite equipped for performance anyways, assuming you buy something more like a Tesla and not a Prius)

Racer-X / 6'er commented: December 21, 2013, 9:21 am

Hmm.... if everyone drove electric cars, there would be more gasoline for those "dinosaurs" who hang on to the old way of getting there.
More supply = lower cost.... I THINK ELECTRIC CARS ARE THE BEST THING EVER AND EVERYBODY SHOULD HAVE ONE!

I know, grossly oversimplified, but really, this (or something similar) will eventually be everyone's future. No, I'm not going out tomorrow and buying one, but I would be very surprised if I don't own an electric car before my driving days are over.

socal59 commented: December 21, 2013, 10:19 am

Most of the green industries the government have gone bankrupt? Really? Wrong! The department of Energy has a $34 billion portfolio, 2% of which had gone out of business. Solyndra is among those. Anyone that knows about startups, is that the rate of failure can be high, it's not 100% for every business. Telsa is a good example of making it.

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Elk commented: December 21, 2013, 11:27 am

Thank you, Socal.

Unfortunately, like most political arguments, many support their view with fabricated "evidence."

I enjoy the proliferation of vehicle types. It's great fun.

beden1 commented: December 21, 2013, 11:33 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by socal59

Most of the green industries the government have gone bankrupt? Really? Wrong! The department of Energy has a $34 billion portfolio, 2% of which had gone out of business. Solyndra is among those. Anyone that knows about startups, is that the rate of failure can be high, it's not 100% for every business. Telsa is a good example of making it.

Doesn't really matter what the government's success rate is, its not a private equity or a private company. 99% could go bust, it just needs to help find the one winning technology and make sure we have that technology here in the good old USA.

If you could reliably make money on speculative technologies and investments, private companies or equity could just fill that role.

Of course, whether government involvement is really necessary is another question, but I think other governments have answered that question for us.

StrangeC commented: December 21, 2013, 1:52 pm

Step 1) Dont start on fire.
Step 2) Generate hype that you can beat the market segment leader (and still not start on fire)

socal59 commented: December 21, 2013, 2:27 pm

Yea a blog post from the Heritage foundation shows that rate of failure? What a surprise? Maybe I should get some figures from the MSNBC blog to counter? But on the other hand we can not help new energy start up and just let the rest of the world take a lead.

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dugbug commented: December 21, 2013, 8:50 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by gkr778

What do you think about BMW's 'i' lineup thus far, in comparison to Tesla?

The i8 looks like a black car was cut in half lengthwise and grafted onto a white car. It is positively the worst thing I have ever seen. Lord it's ugly

Edit sorry that's the i3 isn't it

mynycbimmer commented: December 21, 2013, 10:46 pm

If they could get the weight down these might be interesting. Pretty quick and the 10k redline sounds fun.

Michael Schott commented: December 21, 2013, 10:56 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mynycbimmer

If they could get the weight down these might be interesting. Pretty quick and the 10k redline sounds fun.

Weight is the big issue with any electric car. It's a given that batteries are heavy. Weight savings have to come elsewhere. The new i3 is a preview of the future of semi-practical electric cars. BMW saved weight(it weighs about 2750 pounds vs 3700 for the Volt) through the use of carbon fiber, natural materials and new technology. I wouldn't be surprised to see some of this in future generations of more mainstream BMW's.

Eagle11 commented: December 22, 2013, 2:56 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by beden1

Not for me either, unless I just needed to get to the supermarket and back. I'll take a wait and see approach until the manufacturers come up with truly viable sustainable electric power system.

Interesting comment, the average range that Tesla is talking with their currently line up is enough for the average commuter and spare power to run errands. I had a consulting job in San Jose, and went to this out door mall (very upscale) they had a Tesla store, which allowed people to test drive their cars. I was taken on how well it drive, and the tech inside the car was amazing. I have since spoken to 3 Tesla owners who never have a problem with range when commuting or running errands. I think Tesla has the range issue figured out, the cost of the technology is costly, and he uses it, not like Nissan in which they want to keep the price down, it is basically you get what you pay for. I just have a hard time grasping a 1K lease payment.....

hh3uunp commented: December 22, 2013, 2:59 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by socal59

Most of the green industries the government have gone bankrupt? Really? Wrong! The department of Energy has a $34 billion portfolio, 2% of which had gone out of business. Solyndra is among those. Anyone that knows about startups, is that the rate of failure can be high, it's not 100% for every business. Telsa is a good example of making it.

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Don't forget that the government lost $15 billion bailing out GM even though they still have $30 billion in a rainy day fund.

Elk commented: December 22, 2013, 8:33 am

While this assertion is easily refuted when one looks at the entire economic impact, let's keep the thread on the Tesla and related technology- not politics.

Elk commented: December 22, 2013, 8:43 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

BMW saved weight(it weighs about 2750 pounds vs 3700 for the Volt).

To compare apples to apples, one needs to include the BMW's range extender option (an engine to increase range) which the Volt has as standard equipment. This increases the BMW's weight by 200 pounds.

Additionally, the Volt has roughly one-third more horsepower - which requires more batteries/weight, not to mention it is over a foot and a half longer.

Michael Schott commented: December 22, 2013, 10:21 am

[QUOTE=Elk;8029907]To compare apples to apples, one needs to include the BMW's range extender option (an engine to increase range) which the Volt has as standard equipment. This increases the BMW's weight by 200 pounds.

Additionally, the Volt has roughly one-third more horsepower - which requires more batteries/weight, not to mention it is over a foot and a half longer.[/QUOTE

All true but the point is that BMW has made a very serious effort to keep down weight which makes for a faster car and is environmentally conscious. And even though the Volt is longer, it's still only reasonably comfortable for 4 people. The i3 is still a lot lighter than the Leaf as well.

rodnjen commented: December 22, 2013, 11:26 am

I am looking forward to Tesla's new offering. I sat with a sales associate last week and discussed the Model S at length. I like everything about it except the price. I'm not saying it's not worth it, I just can't afford it.

That being said the idea of spending $70k on an F10 diesel for $50+ on a 328d sport wagon may not be a wise, long-term choice for me either as much as I like them both. My commute is 35 mi round trip, mix highway and streets. A safe, fun EV would be a great addition to our garage.

Long trips I can use my wife's X5 35d or my 12 YO crew cab for bigger jobs. I think electric/hybrid cars like this will be weaving their way into our lives both for commute and sport.

HugH commented: December 22, 2013, 3:29 pm

[QUOTE=Michael Schott;8030029]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elk

To compare apples to apples, one needs to include the BMW's range extender option (an engine to increase range) which the Volt has as standard equipment. This increases the BMW's weight by 200 pounds.

Additionally, the Volt has roughly one-third more horsepower - which requires more batteries/weight, not to mention it is over a foot and a half longer.[/QUOTE

All true but the point is that BMW has made a very serious effort to keep down weight which makes for a faster car and is environmentally conscious. And even though the Volt is longer, it's still only reasonably comfortable for 4 people. The i3 is still a lot lighter than the Leaf as well.

Those are the reason we will be looking seriously at the i3. Ed Wallace stated during his radio show that Texas is working on offering comparable (to other states) tax incentives on electric cars.

Close to my house there is a Kroger store with a free recharging station. Not that I'm planning on smooching, but it's an incentive to stop by and pick-up a few groceries on my way home, instead of some other store.

As far as the electric grid reaching it's limits as someone posted, how much more pressure would it be as compared to the gasoline pumps that also run on electricity? Just wondering.

BTW - Ed Wallace has been driving a small Mitsu electric car around Ft Worth/Arlington.

He loves it and states it costs him around $1.35/week to fully recharge. No tuneups, change of oil, mufflers, etc.

mammothskier commented: December 22, 2013, 3:39 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elk

To compare apples to apples, one needs to include the BMW's range extender option (an engine to increase range) which the Volt has as standard equipment. This increases the BMW's weight by 200 pounds.

Additionally, the Volt has roughly one-third more horsepower - which requires more batteries/weight, not to mention it is over a foot and a half longer.

To compare apples to apples, Volt's all electric range is ~35 miles while i3's is ~100.
i3 has 18.8kWh battery while Volt has 10.3.

i3's battery is ~230kg so Volt's must be half of this. Here's 200lb worth of weight difference.

Carbon fiber is amazing material and if BMW figures out an economical way of producing it, they can have huge competitive advantage.

Elk commented: December 22, 2013, 5:20 pm

Yes, as I indicated, there are many differences between the two cars. They are not directly comparable - precisely why I stated one cannot compare the two on a single parameter as was being done.

Please keep in mind I am not advocating a Volt over an i3. I have, however, driven a Volt and appreciate that others may want an electric car.

HugH commented: December 22, 2013, 5:35 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elk

Yes, as I indicated, there are many differences between the two cars. They are not directly comparable - precisely why I stated one cannot compare the two on a single parameter as was being done.

Please keep in mind I am not advocating a Volt over an i3. I have, however, driven a Volt and appreciate that others may want an electric car.

I already d®ove to Volt and I didn't care much for the seats and a few other things.

We'll see when we test the i3.

BTW - In our case we do not need, nor do we want the range extender.

ScorpioAthlete commented: January 4, 2014, 5:19 pm

Not a fan...

mwm1166 commented: January 4, 2014, 5:23 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by beden1

Not for me either, unless I just needed to get to the supermarket and back. I'll take a wait and see approach until the manufacturers come up with truly viable sustainable electric power system.

They have, it's called hydrogen fuel cell. No government cash behind it though...

Nordique commented: January 4, 2014, 7:12 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dugbug

The i8 looks like a black car was cut in half lengthwise and grafted onto a white car. It is positively the worst thing I have ever seen. Lord it's ugly

Edit sorry that's the i3 isn't it

I think the i8 is a great-looking car, and, in fact, very unusual-looking as well, as well as fast--and the equivalent of 94 mpg.

mwm1166 commented: January 4, 2014, 7:15 pm

The I8 is the best looking "futuristic" car I've seen in a while. It was absolutely stunning in MI:Ghost Protocol.

leonardoghuerta commented: January 7, 2014, 10:52 am

what is key is "fueling" infrastructure for the Tesla. They have a new "supercharging" station that charges the battery to 80% capacity in 20 minutes so that will help but in the long run the fueling stations have to be as common as a gas station to keep up with the masses. But driving the car is like being in an elevator in Las Vegas, it gets you there quick.

rodnjen commented: January 7, 2014, 12:09 pm

I agree that the charging stations are fantastic, I think the majority of owners will never need them.

Nordique commented: March 13, 2014, 3:18 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mammothskier

They found that people who spend ~$70k for a car are ready to spend $10 more for at least 60kWh battery. I'm not sure the same math will work in $40k-$50k segment.

They also need to differentiate Model S and Model E. The battery is the most expensive component in their cars, although progress is battery tech will likely result in significant increase in energy density.

If Model E will have 200mi range, Model S needs to get to 400 to justify almost 2x price difference

I read somewhere that most Model S cars come pretty loaded with options, with the average cost for that model usually over $100K.

namelessman commented: March 13, 2014, 4:10 pm

Telsa in its core is an assembly line rather than a tech company(even though investors seem to think otherwise), the best product from them in the last few years has been TSLA for sure. If Telsa does get to release Model E as $30k-40k cars at 300k units a year, customers/investors will get to see how/if Telsa can handle its supply chains.

namelessman commented: March 13, 2014, 4:10 pm

Double post deleted.

mammothskier commented: March 13, 2014, 4:32 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nordique

I read somewhere that most Model S cars come pretty loaded with options, with the average cost for that model usually over $100K.

I don't have the average figures, but to get over $100k you need to have a P85 Performance car with a LOT of options. For P85 car with every single option you pay $101,220 and I doubt many people equip them like this.

jwalz1 commented: March 13, 2014, 4:53 pm

Someone on my other car board bought a model S, he could not stop raving about the car and was it Motor Trend who called it the best American car ever? He also pointed out that though the car was going to be a couple hundred dollars a month more expensive than the other luxury models he was looking at, he was going to save over $300 a month in gas, making his well optioned and very fast Model S cheaper than the competition on a daily basis. I'd love to see a reasonably priced 3 series fighter. More choice is better for the enthusiast. I like my Bimmer, but am not threatened by Tesla. If it is an awesome car to drive, I don't car if it runs on mouse farts. I drive more than two hundred miles a day four times a year tops. If there were just a very few charging stations that had a 30 minute top off time, I'd spend a total of two hours a year at a station. I spend ten minutes a week now, which is four times as much time over a year period.

sr5959 commented: March 13, 2014, 5:53 pm

Tesla's are way more common on the roads of Kirkland (near Seattle) than F30s, and they look superb.

falar commented: March 13, 2014, 7:10 pm

Politics and subsidies at work.

Let's see how long until the bubble bursts.

Eagle11 commented: March 13, 2014, 8:42 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by sr5959

Tesla's are way more common on the roads of Kirkland (near Seattle) than F30s, and they look superb.

There are soo many in San Jose, I'm just amazed on how many I see when I'm in San Jose and San Diego. I looked into a P85, but couldn't justify the $900/m lease payment.

listerone commented: March 14, 2014, 3:10 am

It certainly won't be coming to *my* driveway.Not in a million years.I've got my new "d" and I'll have it for some time to come (if I don't total it like my Bluetec).

listerone commented: March 14, 2014, 3:13 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by sr5959

Tesla's are way more common on the roads of Kirkland (near Seattle) than F30s, and they look superb.

One reason for that probably is that up there electricity is 5 cents a kWh whereas in many parts of the country it's 20 cents.And there's no real cold to kill the battery like there is elsewhere.

CALWATERBOY commented: March 14, 2014, 7:57 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bernie@Bimmerfest

The Model S fires haven't slowed Tesla down in the development of new models. Their Model E, should be debuted next year at the 2015 Detroit Auto Show

Electric drive solves a huge number of problems, particularly torque vectoring, but where's the power density?

I'll wait.

ifoney commented: March 14, 2014, 8:55 am

Electric cars are the future, hopefully they will get more affordable and practical soon enough. I just bought a new 335i and I justified spending more $$$ on it over a 328i with substantially better gas mileage by thinking "this will probably be my last car which runs on gas". Electric cars are classified as second cars in most people's mind (including mine) right now, this will eventually change as there are more charging points accessible to people. I think this will happen very soon, my office unveiled a huge row of electric vending points, we have so many of those charging points that my colleagues have started buying electric cars like crazy.

I really wish one of the car companies would make an electric hatchback under $20,000 with a 120 mile range. I think that would make it inexpensive enough for most people to own one as a utility car.

What I really hate about electric/hybrid cars is that they look like ****. I don't understand the need for all these companies to make which make ugly cars after all these years designing them, I mean you literally cannot find ugly cars anymore because there has been so much progress making cars. I think the idea is to make ugly cars first and replace them a few years later with better looking ones so everyone wants to buy another one. The only electric car I like looking at is the Model S, leaf is OK looking. The i3 just looks unbearably ugly, hopefully Tesla E is better looking that the Model S which already looks dated.

ifoney commented: March 14, 2014, 9:09 am

Holy ****, this turned into a political comment thread. Mention Electric Cars and the Fox News crowd comes crawling out of the woodwork complaining about government subsidies.

Electric drive solves a huge number of problems, particularly torque vectoring, but where's the power density?

I'll wait.

FYI, local news said the new building to the south of the Nummi plant is Thermo Fisher's, not Tesla's. It would be of interest to see what Model E can offer, but without owning significant advantage(s) (e.g. its own CFRP tech and manufacturing, or batteries that are 1/2 as heavy and 2x as durable) it is unclear how far Tesla can go.

terrystu commented: March 14, 2014, 1:08 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ifoney

Holy ****, this turned into a political comment thread. Mention Electric Cars and the Fox News crowd comes crawling out of the woodwork complaining about government subsidies.

So, you really believe that when a manufacturing company owes its success to the ability of the government to extract tax money from its citizens in order to subsidize its customers, that fact should not be mentioned?

Are there other forms of suppression of free speech to which you subscribe?

The interesting irony here is that your post is the very first one that attempted to make this a political issue.

Michael Schott commented: March 14, 2014, 1:34 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by terrystu

So, you really believe that when a manufacturing company owes its success to the ability of the government to extract tax money from its citizens in order to subsidize its customers, that fact should not be mentioned?

Are there other forms of suppression of free speech to which you subscribe?

The interesting irony here is that your post is the very first one that attempted to make this a political issue.

Please don't escalate the political discussion as you have done here. If this continues I will lock the thread.

Asteroid commented: March 14, 2014, 4:22 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by falar

Politics and subsidies at work.

Let's see how long until the bubble bursts.

Bubble not likely to burst anytime soon. California has a Zero Emission Vehicle mandate that requires an escalating % of cars built be "zero emission". Car manufacturers can comply with the mandate by building these cars or buying "credits" from others. I read that each Tesla Model S generates 7 credits, and each credit traded for $5,000. Last year, Bloomberg reported that Tesla had $119 million in income from selling ZEV credits. Nissan is another manufacturer that complied and has credits stockpiled, but others such as Chrysler, FIAT, VW, and Honda were among the buyers of credits.

I suppose if BMW sells enough i3's and i8's to break even, it'll be a triumph not having to pay Tesla or some other competitor so that non-electric car buyers among us can continue getting our internal-combustion engine fix without subsidizing the electrics. Other states will be joining California in this ZEV thing so this is just the beginning.

CALWATERBOY commented: March 14, 2014, 4:33 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by namelessman

FYI, local news said the new building to the south of the Nummi plant is Thermo Fisher's, not Tesla's. It would be of interest to see what Model E can offer, but without owning significant advantage(s) (e.g. its own CFRP tech and manufacturing, or batteries that are 1/2 as heavy and 2x as durable) it is unclear how far Tesla can go.