I've seen the Mormon PBS Doc and let me say the most surprising thing out of all of it: Tal Bachman was a mormon! She's So High will never be the same again

Shattered dreams aside, I must say the doc was just OK. orthonorm feels that the persecution against Mormons is wrong, well so is the Mormons that shun their own families when they "apostasize" from the "church" they belong to. Or how about all those missionary abuses that goes on? Or how about extorting it's own members to fund a $3billion mall in the name of Jesus?

I don't mean to engender Fr. Serb's wrath, but I just felt a need to chime in here. While the Mormons may not always use their funds wisely (and I would also object to the idea it is extortion that they require you give them a portion of your check, unless God was extorting farmers...), to pretend that everything Mormon is bad is a tad extreme. For instance, my mother for several years worked in residential property management. Countless times, during her years there, tenants would call in to say that the Mormon Church would be paying their rent for a while. The Mormons certainly look out for their own. And if you are going to attack the Mormons for shunning, you might as well attack the Amish too.

That said, let's not be too hasty to start comparing one religious group with another in "crimes against humanity". Each religious group has its share of horrible history and despicable deeds. I was addressing orthonorm's insinuating reply that Mormons are good people and have been injusticed by the good ol USA. I can only think of another obvious larger group which was raped and pillaged, but hey this is the land of religious freedom! Actually it's not.

Not every Mormon is bad, I never said all of them were. I think the worst atrocity the Mormons ever committed were making their own hot chocolate. It was awful and an embarrassment to such a connoisseur such as myself.

Okay. but seriously, the real atrocity here is their entire religion is founded upon lies and fabrication out of the mouth of a genuine charlatan. There are Mormons, in their own camp, who know it's a lie and will do anything it takes to cover it up much like our beloved Muslims when it comes to manuscripts of the Qua'ran. I mean with the Mormon establishment being one of the biggest money making ventures, why would you want the lie to end?

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“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

You apparently have a distorted definition of what a cult is, and what entails brainwashing. Are you suggesting that life is nothing more than a cult? What an insult that is to God who created you and gave you free will. If you are brainwashed, that would be because you don't have the willpower to think for yourself.

How many people, and I thought this included you, actually took the steps to search and find Orthodoxy. Those people, I would say, were not brainwashed, but, thought for themselves.

If you are a US citizen and have a conscious or are Orthodox and actually observing Lent, go knock on a Mormon's door and apologize.

You are welcome.

Apologize? I've never even met one. What would I have to apologize for?

« Last Edit: March 13, 2012, 05:47:58 PM by LizaSymonenko »

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Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

You apparently have a distorted definition of what a cult is, and what entails brainwashing. Are you suggesting that life is nothing more than a cult? What an insult that is to God who created you and gave you free will. If you are brainwashed, that would be because you don't have the willpower to think for yourself.

How many people, and I thought this included you, actually took the steps to search and find Orthodoxy. Those people, I would say, were not brainwashed, but, thought for themselves.

You apparently have a distorted definition of what a cult is, and what entails brainwashing. Are you suggesting that life is nothing more than a cult? What an insult that is to God who created you and gave you free will. If you are brainwashed, that would be because you don't have the willpower to think for yourself.

How many people, and I thought this included you, actually took the steps to search and find Orthodoxy. Those people, I would say, were not brainwashed, but, thought for themselves.

If you are a US citizen and have a conscious or are Orthodox and actually observing Lent, go knock on a Mormon's door and apologize.

You are welcome.

Apologize? I've never even met one. What would I have to apologize for?

No one thinks for themselves. There is no such thing.

You have everything to apologize for. I suggest speaking to your Priest.

Before I go speak to my priest, it would be good if I got a better understanding what exactly I have to apologize for concerning Mormons. Please enlighten me.

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Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

You apparently have a distorted definition of what a cult is, and what entails brainwashing. Are you suggesting that life is nothing more than a cult? What an insult that is to God who created you and gave you free will. If you are brainwashed, that would be because you don't have the willpower to think for yourself.

How many people, and I thought this included you, actually took the steps to search and find Orthodoxy. Those people, I would say, were not brainwashed, but, thought for themselves.

You have everything to apologize for. I suggest speaking to your Priest.

Before I go speak to my priest, it would be good if I got a better understanding what exactly I have to apologize for concerning Mormons. Please enlighten me.

There is a clue.

What gives you the right to speak to me this way?

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Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

The only evil of Mormonism (aside from the possible covering up of sexual abuse, which has been alleged by at least a few ex-Mormon women, regarding their fathers) is that it is based in lie. Mormons are generally not bad people, at least devout Mormons anyways.

What you and others were missing from the last thread was my main point (actually Achronos didn't much of the point as his summary of my post is near as to completely wrong as you can get):

They have been and are targeted by our Government for persecution. Explicitly at one time for utter extinction. (Is that worse than "shunning"?)

Lest you be mistaken that it was not our national government that upheld persecution against them. Rather in two states, Missouri and Illinois pushed the Mormons out to reside in Utah. Then the Utah "War" happened. The latter had nothing to do with "utter extinction".

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Every group "shuns". Every.

Every.

Just because every group shuns does not make it right. That's my point.

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Everyone joins a cult and is brainwashed. It is called being born.

What the hell? So you are conflating between being born into a "cult" and from thenceforth we are brainwashed. Sorry but you're wrong.

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If you are a US citizen and have a conscious or are Orthodox and actually observing Lent, go knock on a Mormon's door and apologize.

No we don't have to apologize because the history says otherwise. We should instead knock on the door of our Native Americans and apologize. Or do you disagree?

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“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

What you and others were missing from the last thread was my main point (actually Achronos didn't much of the point as his summary of my post is near as to completely wrong as you can get):

They have been and are targeted by our Government for persecution. Explicitly at one time for utter extinction. (Is that worse than "shunning"?)

Lest you be mistaken that it was not our national government that upheld persecution against them. Rather in two states, Missouri and Illinois pushed the Mormons out to reside in Utah. Then the Utah "War" happened. The latter had nothing to do with "utter extinction".

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Every group "shuns". Every.

Every.

Just because every group shuns does not make it right. That's my point.

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Everyone joins a cult and is brainwashed. It is called being born.

What the hell? So you are conflating between being born into a "cult" and from thenceforth we are brainwashed. Sorry but you're wrong.

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If you are a US citizen and have a conscious or are Orthodox and actually observing Lent, go knock on a Mormon's door and apologize.

No we don't have to apologize because the history says otherwise. We should instead knock on the door of our Native Americans and apologize. Or do you disagree?

It's kind of in the nature of the word "group". Some are in, some are out.

Exactly, groups like to use neat words which sound bad to to describe similar practices of other groups so they can righteously eliminate or marginalize them.

But that's how we survive as a species. All conflict is Mind vs Mind. If you have a groups who's minds operate differently than ours it can safely be assumed that they have conflicting interests. I think if we spent less time trying to make the other's way of thinking fit in with our own, we'd be better able to understand them, and thus find the means to destroy them, and be more successful.

You apparently have a distorted definition of what a cult is, and what entails brainwashing. Are you suggesting that life is nothing more than a cult? What an insult that is to God who created you and gave you free will. If you are brainwashed, that would be because you don't have the willpower to think for yourself.

How many people, and I thought this included you, actually took the steps to search and find Orthodoxy. Those people, I would say, were not brainwashed, but, thought for themselves.

I think his definitions are different though not necessarily distorted. What exactly is brainwashing? When you get down to it, it's really just an extreme form of mental conditioning. If I am reading him right, he's pretty much just pointing out the obvious - your mind has been heavily conditioned by your family, your friends, your culture, your religion, your language, your education, etc. Basically all a cult is is a very small culture that is viewed as competition by a larger culture (in essence, a larger cult).

However, in today's society it is really difficult to be "brainwashed" by your particular demographic.

Sure, I grew up in the Church, spoke Ukrainian from a young age, etc. However, I surf the Web, I watch the NEWS, I am exposed to all manner of information.

I have free will....and if for some reason I deduced that what I had been taught my whole life was wrong, I have the ability to change!

You are what you make of yourself.

The only people who can claim to truly be brainwashed are those who are isolated.

We, are hardly isolated.

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Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

What you and others were missing from the last thread was my main point (actually Achronos didn't much of the point as his summary of my post is near as to completely wrong as you can get):

They have been and are targeted by our Government for persecution. Explicitly at one time for utter extinction. (Is that worse than "shunning"?)

This is madness.

And by the way:

Every group "shuns". Every.

Every.

It's just when the reasons for shunning in one group depart significantly from another, usually the group which defines the "status quo", does it seem scandalous.

The reasons are never more strict, severe, etc. They are best defined by the word: different.

Let's wait for the word cult to be used. Or brainwashed.

Everyone joins a cult and is brainwashed. It is called being born.

Now air all the reasons you don't like Mormons / Mormonism all you want, but realize they are simply deviations from your own set of rules.

As citizens of this country, we should have a singular response to the treatment of Mormons by this country's government: shame.

If you are a US citizen and have a conscious or are Orthodox and actually observing Lent, go knock on a Mormon's door and apologize.

You are welcome.

Is your ranting over? Are you somewhat calmer and are you willing to tell us what in the world you are talking about? Thanks.

This is supposed to be an answer to my question? If it is, please indulge me, an old man whose native language is not American English, and answer my question less enigmatically, cryptically and tersely. Just walk me through what you are trying to say, please?

I do not wish to derail this thread but I feel compelled to post a contextual reminder that the Evil One is working extra hard during the Great Lent. I will state up front that I am not judging anyone but myself and am posting the following in the chance that it may also be applicable to the lives of others.

"Teaching on the Eight Means of Temptation and the Struggle Against Them

The Holy Fathers say (this is how Fr. Cleopa began to express concisely his spiritual experience to us, inherited from the Holy Fathers and personally experienced by him, as every one of his words clearly confirms) that on the path of salvation one is tempted by the devil from eight sides: from the front, from behind, from the left, from the right, from above, from below, from inside, and from the outside.

1. One is tempted from behind when one continuously remembers the sins and evil deeds one has committed in the past, recalling them anew in one’s mind, reshuffling them, engaging them, despairing because of them, and contemplating them sensually. Such a remembrance of how we have sinned in the past is a demonic temptation.

2. One is normally tempted from the front through fear at the thought of what the future holds: of what will happen to us or to the world; of how much longer we will live; of whether we will have anything to eat; of whether there will be a war or any other kind of serious and frightful event to come; and, in general, by making all kinds of guesses, predictions, prophecies, and everything else that induces fear of the future in us.

3. One is tempted by the devil from the left through the call to commit obvious sins and to behave and act in ways that are known to be sinful and evil, but which people do nonetheless. This temptation is a direct call to sin openly and consciously.

4. There are two ways in which the devil tempts from the right. The first is when one performs good deeds and actions, but with a bad or malicious intent and purpose. For example, if one does good or acts well out of vainglory, to receive praise, to obtain a position, to acquire fame, or in order to attain some benefit for oneself – it follows that one is doing such good out of vanity, avarice, and greed. The performance of good deeds for bad purposes is sinful and vain. The Holy Fathers liken such a performance of good deeds (such as fasting and almsgiving) to a body without a soul, inasmuch as the purpose for which a deed is accomplished is its soul, while the deed itself is its body. Therefore, the performance of good deeds with an ungodly purpose is essentially a temptation coming from the right, that is, coming under the guise of good. The second demonic temptation from the right comes through various apparitions and visions, when one receives visions of the devil in the form of God or an Angel of God. The Holy Fathers call trusting these specters from the devil, or accepting these demonic phenomena, delusion or deception [prelest].

5. Further, the devil tempts one from above when one is capable of performing good deeds or holy virtues but is too lazy to do so; or when one knows that one should make greater efforts and labors in ascetic struggles (in virtues and good deeds), and is capable of doing so, but does not do so out of laziness or because one is looking for excuses for one’s laziness. One thereby spiritually rejects these virtues by doing much less than one could in fact do.

6. Temptations from below (Elder Cleopa, in order better to explain this to us, demonstrated with his hands the direction from which one or another temptation came; he then briefly repeated what the direction of the temptation he had just described was) also come about in two ways. The first is when one takes upon oneself ascetic struggles that exceed one’s strength, thereby recklessly straining oneself. This happens, for instance, when one is sick but imposes a fast on oneself that is beyond one’s strength; or generally when one overdoes any ascetic struggle that is beyond one’s spiritual and physical capacity. Such obstinacy lacks humility and is unreasonably presumptuous.

Another temptation from below is when one strives to learn the mysteries of Holy Scripture (and of God’s mysteries in general), but does not do so according to one’s spiritual maturity. That is, when one wants to penetrate the mysteries of God in Holy Scripture (or in the saints, the world, and life in general) in order later to explain and teach these mysteries to other people when one is not spiritually mature enough to do so. The Holy Fathers say that such a person wants to chew through a bone with baby teeth. St. Gregory of Nyssa speaks about this in his work, The Life of Moses. He says that it was for this reason that God commanded the Israelites, who were imperfect, to eat only the meat (which is like milk for the teeth) from the Passover lamb – and, moreover, with bitter herbs – and not to break into pieces or to eat the bones, but rather to burn them in fire (cf. Exodus 12: 8, 10, 46). This means that we, too, should interpret only those mysteries in Holy Scripture (and in our faith in God generally) that correspond to our spiritual maturity and to eat (absorb) them with bitter herbs, that is, with everything that life brings us (suffering, grief); we should not bite into the mysteries of Holy Scripture, Divine knowledge, and God’s Providence, like so many hard bones, with our baby teeth; they are susceptible to fire only, that is, they become clear only in ripe spiritual maturity and in experienced souls that have been tested by grace-filled Divine fire.

7. One is tempted from within by that which one has in one’s heart and by that which proceeds from the heart. The Lord Jesus Christ clearly stated that it is from within, from one’s heart, that sinful and impure thoughts, desires, and lusts proceed (cf. Matthew 15:19) and tempt one. Temptations come not only from the devil, but also humanly, from the evil intentions and skills, lusts, evil desires, and inner love of sin that proceed from an unclean heart.

8. Finally, the eighth door to demonic temptation is opened from the outside, through external things and occasions, that is, through everything that enters from outside through one’s senses, which are the soul’s windows. These external things are not evil in and of themselves, but by means of them one’s feelings can be tempted and induced to evil and sin.

These, then, are the eight means by which everyone is tempted, regardless of whether one is in the world or in seclusion.

Against each of these temptations – from behind, from the front, from the left, from the right, from above, from below, from inside, and from the outside – one must fight by means of watchfulness (the Elder used precisely this Slavonic word [trezvenie]), that is, attentiveness, carefulness, and wakefulness of soul and body; wakefulness and vigilance of spirit; sobriety and discernment; attention to one’s thoughts and actions; or, in a word: judgment. On the other hand, by means of constant prayer that invokes the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, that is, through unceasing prayer. (Here Fr. Petronius added in Greek: “Prosochi kai prosefchi” – that is, as the Holy Fathers put it, “by attention and prayer.”)

In other words (the Elder added), the Holy Fathers said that the battle against all temptations and passions consists in the following: guarding all one’s mind, soul, and body from temptation – this is our ascetic struggle, from our human point of view; from the Divine side, one must continuously and prayerfully call upon the help of the All-Merciful Lord Jesus Christ – and this is that unceasing and primary prayer of the hesychasts called the Jesus Prayer: “Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me, a sinner!”

I happen to think that mormons are extraordinarily nice people. I like them alot. I intensely despise their religion. I do think that it is not Christian. However, that does not mean I hate Mormons as people. They should not be discriminated against at all. I also think that nobody should attack individual mormons because of their religion. We should focus on the error made by their "prophet".

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Every group "shuns". Every

True, but there is a difference. Mormon shunning is a really different matter.

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If you are a US citizen and have a conscious or are Orthodox and actually observing Lent, go knock on a Mormon's door and apologize.

I dont understand this. Everyone upset and offended everyone else in history. I had nothing to do with it so no, I wont apologize. Just like I wont apologize for slavery, nor should black folks in general apologize for the black panthers, or all Germans apologize for nazis, or all Russians apologize for Communism. We are not in kindergarten anymore. Everyone pissed off, pissed on, pushed down, killed, maimed, persecuted, raped, pillaged, and hurt everyone else at one point or another. Everyone....except preschool kids and the Amish.

So can we all act like big kids and just go on living without needing our noses wiped? Does the world really stop if we dont apologize for something?

PP

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"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

If you will, you can become all flame.Extra caritatem nulla salus.In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness". सर्वभूतहितἌνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas GandhiY dduw bo'r diolch.

What would be a good discussion is why Christians, who view Mormons as non-Christians, would want a Mormon as POTUS. Their metaphsics appear a little shaky to me.

Do Mormons believe in metaphysics?

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If you will, you can become all flame.Extra caritatem nulla salus.In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness". सर्वभूतहितἌνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas GandhiY dduw bo'r diolch.

In some ways, far worse. Origenists, for one, with some Montanism thrown in.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were both high ranking masons.The highest ceremonies all of them wear aprons.They want to achieve exaltation (as Gods) like Masons.

They blaspheme Christ calling him the spirit brother of LuciferThey blaspheme the Theotokos/God saying that they had sex.

Their book of Mormon was only interpreted by 1 man (Joseph Smith)Their book talks of the Laminites using domesticated animals that did not exist (until USA discovered).Their book talks of alloys (such as bronze) that did not exist until the USA was discovered.

It's phony baloney laced in blasphemy with a hint of Luciferianism. But if you like blasphemy and want 10 wives, and a honey-do list a mile long - go for it!

Well let's be honest, they are a bunch of right-wing weirdos, but being weird is not necessarily a crime. They didn't deserve the persecution they faced from the United States government. But then again, I won't be apologizing to them anytime soon because as a Mexican I was also a persecuted minority.

Their book talks of alloys (such as bronze) that did not exist until the USA was discovered.

Huh?

That one got me too. He just wiped out the entire Bronze Age from human history, not to mention "discovered the USA" as an event.

And I'm pretty sure that there were two who did their scriptural translations, not one - and neither had any knowledge of Greek except a lexicon.

I think what he meant to say was that the Book of Mormon refers to bronze being in use in pre-Columbian America, when it wasn't known in the New World until after its discovery by Europeans. Of course, the Book of Mormon is riddled with such errors (horses prior to their introduction by the Spanish, Semitic Native Americans etc.)

James

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We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos

Their book talks of alloys (such as bronze) that did not exist until the USA was discovered.

Huh?

That one got me too. He just wiped out the entire Bronze Age from human history, not to mention "discovered the USA" as an event.

And I'm pretty sure that there were two who did their scriptural translations, not one - and neither had any knowledge of Greek except a lexicon.

I think what he meant to say was that the Book of Mormon refers to bronze being in use in pre-Columbian America, when it wasn't known in the New World until after its discovery by Europeans. Of course, the Book of Mormon is riddled with such errors (horses prior to their introduction by the Spanish, Semitic Native Americans etc.)

James

Horses did exist (before dying out by 10,000 BCE) in North America prior to the Spanish.

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If you will, you can become all flame.Extra caritatem nulla salus.In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness". सर्वभूतहितἌνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas GandhiY dduw bo'r diolch.

Their book talks of alloys (such as bronze) that did not exist until the USA was discovered.

Huh?

That one got me too. He just wiped out the entire Bronze Age from human history, not to mention "discovered the USA" as an event.

And I'm pretty sure that there were two who did their scriptural translations, not one - and neither had any knowledge of Greek except a lexicon.

I think what he meant to say was that the Book of Mormon refers to bronze being in use in pre-Columbian America, when it wasn't known in the New World until after its discovery by Europeans. Of course, the Book of Mormon is riddled with such errors (horses prior to their introduction by the Spanish, Semitic Native Americans etc.)

James

Horses did exist (before dying out by 10,000 BCE) in North America prior to the Spanish.

I'm well aware of that, but the Book of Mormon is referring to a period of time thousands of years after the extinction of horses in the Americas. I didn't think that I'd really need to make that distinction but apparently I did.

James

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We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos

“I will never again support anything by the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association,” said Wynn, the superintendent of a United Methodist Church district in Fayetteville, N.C.

The source of Wynn’s ire: The BGEA’s recent removal of language on its website calling Mormonism a “cult.”....Howell Scott, senior pastor Bethel Baptist Church in Alamogordo, N.M., said the BGEA’s declassification of Mormonism as a cult “will have disastrous unintended consequences.”

“The most immediate consequence will be the acceptance and approval of Mormonism as a legitimate Christian 'denomination' or faith group,” Scott wrote on his blog last week.

« Last Edit: October 25, 2012, 10:01:15 AM by Jetavan »

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If you will, you can become all flame.Extra caritatem nulla salus.In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness". सर्वभूतहितἌνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas GandhiY dduw bo'r diolch.