But FOF isnt a creationist or ID group. The question I asked does not apply
to them.

However, I truly do believe FOF wouldn't help me defend my right to
believe the Bible the way I want to. Why? Because they don't hold to my
view of the Bible. I'm not being unfair to them by saying this. Their
purpose is to promote a certain view of the Bible. Why would they defend a
contrary view? Unless of course they see that freedom of belief, as an
American principle, underpins their own beliefs. Which was the point.

I just don't happen to know of a creationist organization that recognizes
this more general principle.

You are right when you imply that after crushing the creationists their
atheistic stormtrooper enemies will come after the ASA next. Everyone who
isn't an atheist is in a boat together where they will all drown
together. That threat ought to be enough to inspire cooperation in defense
strategy. However, that means the religious litmus tests must be set
aside. Creationists have got to stop excluding other Christians.

I think we should pay attention to Rabbi Daniel Lapin.

On 5/24/07, David Opderbeck <dopderbeck@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> David Clounch said: *Can you point out any ID organization or any
> creationist organization that is in even the tiniest way interested in
> being a civil rights organization? Is there anyone in these movements who
> will defend my right to believe something different about the Bible than
> they do? If there is, I have yet to meet them.
> *
> In an effort be fair to policy groups such as Focus on the Family et al.,
> I think they'd also be concerned if, say, a public college campus chapter of
> the ASA (when we get local chapters!) was targeted by a campus atheist group
> simply for suggesting that God directed creation for a purpose. I would
> tend to think, though, that the concern might not be as deep and vocal,
> because of a bunch of factors, such as: (1) the culture war history of
> creationism and ID in the public schools; and (2) the extent to which the
> passions of the grass-roots / donor base would or wouldn't be aroused.
>
> Focus, in my opinion, has lots of good resources on the "family" side of
> the house, but its public policy arm is stridently devoted to the culture
> wars -- and this is what you get, not only when it comes to faith and
> science, but on a whole constellation of policy questions. Activists tend
> not to be attracted to moderates.
>
> On 5/24/07, David Clounch <david.clounch@gmail.com > wrote:
> >
> > Dick,
> >
> > You are asking tough questions. But is the ASA a civil rights
> > organization? I don't think so. And why should it be? Good question.
> >
> > I think of my mission in life PRIMARILY as that of a civil rights
> > crusader. And yet groups like AIG will tell me that because I am not
> > anti-evolution that I surely must belong to the dark side. Its their
> > belief. They will take it with them to the grave. Please tell me how to
> > overcome that.
> >
> > How does one defend the civil rights of someone who one thinks is
> > completely ridiculous?
> > And can one reasonably do so?
> >
> > I'd say yes, one can. Yes, the right of these silly AIG folks to be
> > free from being told by government that their religious beliefs are wrong
> > is a fundamental right and a fundamental issue in American culture.
> >
> > And personally I'd say yes, all Americans have a vested interest in
> > defending AIG's rights, even if we disagree with AIG. Wouldn't it be
> > wonderful if we could all work together on defending constitutional rights
> > and freedom of belief?
> >
> > Which leads me to: Can you point out any ID organization or any
> > creationist organization that is in even the tiniest way interested in
> > being a civil rights organization? Is there anyone in these movements who
> > will defend my right to believe something different about the Bible than
> > they do? If there is, I have yet to meet them. And that is one of their
> > self inflicted (to re-use your verbage) weaknesses they have to overcome
> > before outsiders will be able to help them.
> >
> > If you would like to chat offline about this please contact me.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > David Clounch
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 5/23/07, Dick Fischer < dickfischer@verizon.net > wrote:
> > >
> > > This is a perfect of example of where ASA's self-inflicted neutrality
> > > puts us on the sideline making these issues a far-left, pro-science,
> > > anti-religious attack against the poor Christians who are only trying to
> > > defend the truth of the Bible. By being silent we are an irrelevant,
> > > toothless tiger where, If we had an official position on YEC as many of us
> > > have lobbied for, the ASA could lead the condemnation against those
> > > who through their ignorant and misguided Bible interpretation cause all
> > > Bible-believers to appear to be as misled as they are. We enlightened
> > > pro-science, God-loving Christians sit quietly on our hands while the "real
> > > Christians" duke it out with the Satan-worshipping heathen. Valiant King
> > > George against the dreaded dragon. YECs get to clothe themselves in
> > > righteousness and revel in the publicity. And for us lurking in the
> > > shadows, just another opportunity lost â€¦
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Dick Fischer
> > >
> > > Dick Fischer , Genesis Proclaimed Association
> > >
> > > Finding Harmony in Bible, Science, and History
> > >
> > > www.genesisproclaimed.org
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > *From:* asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu]
> > > * On Behalf Of *Carol or John Burgeson
> > > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 23, 2007 5:31 PM
> > > *To:* asa@calvin.edu
> > > *Subject:* [asa] Focus on the Family supports the YEC nonsense
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The following email came from Focus on the Family, James Dobson's
> > > organization.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Burgy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Date: May 22, 2007
> > > From: Focus on the Family
> > > By: Wendy Cloud
> > >
> > > Liberal Group Assails New Creation Museum
> > > by Wendy Cloyd, assistant editor
> > >
> > > Claims Biblical truth and science are not compatible.
> > >
> > > Far-Left DefCon America has launched a campaign against a northern
> > > Kentucky museum dedicated to a biblical presentation of science and world
> > > history. The Creation Museum, a project of Answers in Genesis, will open its
> > > 76,000-square-foot facility May 28.
> > >
> > > DefCon is telling people the project would "undermine" science and
> > > "confuse" children. On its Web site, DefCon is described as "an online
> > > grassroots movement combating the growing power of the religious right" and
> > > fighting for "the separation of church and state â€¦ while respecting people
> > > of faith and their right to express their beliefs."
> > >
> > > According to Ken Ham, president and co-founder of Answers in Genesis
> > > (AiG), DefCon is demanding tolerance of all beliefs, but will not tolerate
> > > anyone who believes the Bible.
> > >
> > > "What is incredible about all this is that this group called DefCon is
> > > supposed to be defending the Constitution," he told CitizenLink. "They say
> > > that you can have freedom of speech, freedom of religion â€“ but you're not
> > > allowed to say that science supports the Bible."
> > >
> > > "Our campaign is focused on exposing AiG's attempt to institutionalize
> > > a lie," Clark Stevens, co-director of DefCon, told CitizenLink. "Our
> > > opposition to the museum has nothing to do with religion â€“ it's about bad
> > > science.
> > >
> > > "We want Ken Ham as well as the rest of America to know that (we) are
> > > opposed to his war on science education, and we call on him to stop
> > > promoting this falsehood at the expense of our children."
> > >
> > > Ham said it's preposterous to claim the museum has no basis in
> > > science.
> > >
> > > "We are opening up a major facility to tell the world that the Bible
> > > is true and we use good research in biology, geology, astronomy,
> > > anthropology and so on â€“ to help people understand you can trust God's word.
> > > And they don't like it," he said.
> > >
> > >
> > > DefCon is calling on educators to "oppose this nefarious campaign to
> > > institutionalize a lie" by signing an online petition, an apparent attempt
> > > to add names to its list of supporters.
> > >
> > > "What's our lie?" Ham asked. "We're saying the Bible's true."
> > >
> >
> >
>

To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
"unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
Received on Thu May 24 11:41:58 2007