The entire gay issue is another one of those non-issues. Fact is there are and have been gays in every walk of life since the beginning of time. Most are productive and decent people and no one even knows they are gay

The one argument against gays that really gets my blood boiling is the one about not wanting one’s kids exposed to gays in the classroom or a boy/girl scout troop. Would it be ok for a male teacher to hit on ones little girl or a female teacher to hit on ones little boy in the same setting? Which as it stands right now probably happens 100 if not 1000 to 1 in comparison.

This is the point I was trying to get across in a previous thread quite awhile back. Children being taught by a "gay" teacher is no worse and perhaps could be better than children being taught by an "immoral" heterosexual teacher.

Flosum - I dunno.. I'm gonna pass on letting an openly gay scout master take my son into the mountains. I wouldn't let a Catholic priest take my son camping either. While I have nothing against gays, I'm going to err on the side of caution on this one. Sorry. I agree with you in principle though. Just because a person is gay (or a priest) that doesn't make them a sexual predator.

"I think if you know what you believe, it makes it a lot easier to answer questions. I can't answer your question." - George W Bush

Jeez! Where were you people when I came out? I got the least bit of support possible from the community...anyway. About the scout thing: Get to know the guy/lady, of course. If I want to be a scout leader (yeah, not gonna happen) but if I did, I wouldn't want people turning up their noses and saying "I have nothing against gays, but don't let them near my children." I've babysat for over 100 kids since I was 13 and all but one family knew I was gay. They had no problem with it and I certainly didn't molest any of their children. I'm glad I'm back (not back in town, back online). If anyone has a copy of my "coming out" letter I would really appreciate it if you could send it to me at Coelitrax@lycos.com And a great big "HI THERE AND HELLO" TO EVERYONE! --Josh Welch

I am a new member and would like to say that this “pioneer gay bishop” issue is silly.

Not being a Christian but brought up as one until I found out about other religions I still respect other peoples different religious choices.

But!

If I was a Christian I would be very infuriated with a “gay bishop” or a “gay marriage”. I can also throw Bible passages and it “IS” in context.

Leviticus 18:22 :: New International Version (NIV) 22 " 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable. Leviticus 18:22 :: King James Version (KJV) 22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. And Romans 1:27

That would be like me being a “truthful lier” or a “free slave”. Or what about “drinking yourself sober”?

I could also site that a man shall not live with a woman out of wedlock but The Episcopal Church stated that early on.

I do not have a problem with gay people even if gay means not being happy anymore. At least keep it in the bedroom or at “Gay Day at Walt Disney World”. http://www.gayday.com/default.asp

Now that I think about it, I would like to retract my earlier post. I wouldn't forbid my child from attending Boy Scout functions with a gay scout master unless the scout master was a known sex offender or there was some evidence to suggest to me that my child wouldn't be safe. I must have been in a weird mood when I posted that.

Timber,

Are you saying that gay people should only be "gay" in the bedroom or at Disney World? Thats so bizzare its humorous.

Your comments suggesting that gays are immoral and therefore cannot be Christian touch on my biggest issue with organized religion. In my experience, religious people almost always impose their morality on other people. They prefer to call it "missionary" work or "saving" souls, etc. Its a subtle form of persecution and to some (like me) its maddening. I had a Johova's Witness (sp) show up at my door a few months back and tell me that I was "unpure". She actually said that to me at MY front door. She honestly believes that because I am not a Johovah's Witness I cannot be pure (whatever that is).

Ok I'm climbing up on the soapbox..

Most religions have as a basic tenet, the belief that people that have faith and follow the "rules" of the particular religion go to heaven or nirvana etc, and those people that don't "believe" go to **** or somesuch bad place. It doesn't take a huge logical leap to mutate that belief system into a more radical one. The more radical system would dictate that followers are good, and non-followers are bad. One more tiny little logical leap and presto! Believers are good, non-believers should be killed. Unfortunately, thats precisely the kind of thinking that leads to 767s flying into skyscrapers.

Besides, I prefer to think that Christ was a kind, forgiving, and tolerant person without exception. People have been gay since the beginning of time so I'm sure that Christ had experience in such matters. I wonder how he would respond to your post?

"I think if you know what you believe, it makes it a lot easier to answer questions. I can't answer your question." - George W Bush

Yes you can, throw the Bible. Right out the window for all I care. I have read it a couple of time over my life span. Fact is the vast majority of the world thinks it’s a piece of fiction at best and a lot think it is total garbage.

I think anyone can find some passage in the Bible somewhere to support his or her position on **** near anything, right, wrong or indifferent… makes it worthless as far as I am concerned. What is in people’s heart and how they live and act is what counts…. Not words skillfully interpreted for the sake of argument, even if they do come out of the Bible. And certainly not whom they sleep with.

cmoo- what people do in their bedroom or house is none of my business. And that is the way it should be. But would you all like to have to explain to your children at Disney World on Gay Day what these people are doing? Maybe I should read and learn more about The Episcopal Church. I think they still use some version of the Holy Bible?

"Your comments suggesting that gays are immoral and therefore cannot be Christian"

1 Corinthians 6 9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders

So I suppose you can not go to heaven but you can represent by being a gay bishop.

“Thats so bizzare its humorous.”

Your telling me!

JFlosum- agreed as I said before I am not a Christian but I can not understand the hypocrisy in this Church's logic. But I do like to read The Holy Bible because it does have some inspirational story's besides it's twisted ones.

Seems to me it’s a parent’s responsibility to explain to their kids what gays do rather they see it at Disneyland or not. Fact is they are 1000 times more likely to have been exposed to what it is they are going see gays doing at Disneyland a few hundred times a week right in their own living room via the TV. If not there, certainly somewhere along the line the subject is going to come up. There has been gays since the beginning of mankind and will continue to be regardless rather some like it or not.

In response to Timberwf's reply. Whoa. you're right. The bible is chock full of controversy. Take for instance the passage you quoted- they used neither/nor- that's a double negative! tsk, tsk. They don't get a gold star for grammar today. Anyways, there's my attempt at humor. Now on to the meat and potatoes. I'm not going to attempt to re-write the Bible, or say that someone should attempt the task. I will say, however, that i'm really sick of all these people who pull out bible passages to knock whatever they're opposed to, because the people never really look more deeply into it and realize that there's a little nugget in there for everybody. We can all get knocked off the high horses we try to ride every day. I've fallen off and eaten dirt more times than i care to recall. I think one good passage to remember- i don't recall the exact location, but i know i've heard it before- is "all have sinned, and all fall short of the glory of God." Sure, there are alot of passages in there that severely discourage homosexuality. And i noted that earlier somebody had posted scripture from Leviticus. Just the mention of Leviticus get's me going. I won't say that it's not an important part of the Bible, but it's used so many times against so many groups, and i can't figure out why. I've had it used against me because i'm tattooed- from shoulder to shoulder, about 8 inches high, is the word "LOVE". But leviticus warns against cutting yourself or making tattoo marks on your body. I didn't even have to look that up, i've heard it so many times. But i'll respond to Leviticus quoters everywhere with this- read more into it. There's tons of stuff you're not supposed to do. It says not to wear clothing made out of more than one type of fiber. Goodbye 50 cotton/50 polyester. It says not to cut the hair on the sides of your head. So now i won't be able to jokingly make fun of long-haired guys, because i'll be one myself. The whole thing is made up of all these rules and regulations, regarding everything under the sun. And i think alot of those have value, like not prostituting your daughter (that's one of them, i'm not just making it up!). And throughout the whole bible, many groups are oppressed- the homosexuals, the minorities, and get this- the women! If i were to say that a woman's place is in the kitchen, peeling potatoes, serving her husband, taking care of the babies, scrubbing the dishes....ah. i'm getting longwinded here. But if i were to try to oppress women, my mom would use her right to say "We'll see about that. you take my spot in the kitchen. Do the dishes and get me a glass of milk, you swine!". She has this right because our society has seen fit to look past the example set by the Bible, because it's just not fair. Nor is it fair to judge people, or say what they can or can't do just because of their race, belief, skin color, gender, age, or sexual preference. I see people quoting less and less of the good things from the Bible. We are all becoming to obsessed with rules and regulations, and we're passing that on to our younger generations. We should be passing down things like loving the sinner and hating the sin, doing unto others as we'd have done unto us, and showing the three things that remain- faith, hope and love. And the greatest of these is Love. Here comes your bible message today, kiddies. Jesus didn't just die to save the heterosexual church-goers. The man that was nailed to the cross was the walking definition of Love and Acceptance. Jesus Christ, despite popular belief, also died to save the prostitutes, drunkards, rapists, and gays.

Baby, you know if you’re not beautiful /Just cover it up /With make-up kits and perforated scalpel seams,/ We’ll do you right up/ I’m so obsessed with looking like celebrities/ Make myself throw up /But it’s all right cause one day I know I’ll be fine/ like everyone else.

Originally posted by TenaciousT:We should be passing down things like loving the sinner and hating the sin, doing unto others as we'd have done unto us, and showing the three things that remain- faith, hope and love. And the greatest of these is Love. Here comes your bible message today, kiddies. Jesus didn't just die to save the heterosexual church-goers. The man that was nailed to the cross was the walking definition of Love and Acceptance. Jesus Christ, despite popular belief, also died to save the prostitutes, drunkards, rapists, and gays.

Im posting for some undefinable reason, in response to baby's last post about the controversies of the bible as opposed to the books of other religions. No doubt the bible is an impressive work, what with spanning countless (well, i guess they're countable if you take the time) generations. But in all your worldly and spiritual studies, have you found any admirable traits of other beliefs? In comparing the books, it doesn't seem right to fit the necronomicon into the list, as it's main point is demon resurrections and other stuff that makes me shiver. I probably would have left the book of mormon out of the list altogether because if you look at it in a critical way, it's almost impossible not to think that it's made up. All the other books on the list seem like interesting reads, and in many cases i think we can draw alot of knowledge out of them, to compliment the teachings we learn from the bible. Because no matter what way you look at it, somebody took the time to write all the information down a long time ago, and it stood as a standard of beliefs for years. What i'm getting at is that you could have substituted different books that you've read besides the bible and your post would have made sense too. It just seems to me like you're saying the Bible and Jesus do all this great stuff, and they're believable, but all this other stuff isn't. so i mainly just wanted to post in the defense of all the other things you wrote about.

Baby, you know if you’re not beautiful /Just cover it up /With make-up kits and perforated scalpel seams,/ We’ll do you right up/ I’m so obsessed with looking like celebrities/ Make myself throw up /But it’s all right cause one day I know I’ll be fine/ like everyone else.

There is no right of wrong or “context” of the bible. That’s why it’s pretty much worthless as far as I’m concerned. It’s good reading, but that’s all it is. People will continue to take form and interpret from the bible what they feel like. And the meaningless debate on what it means or if is or is not in context will go on for all of eternity. Personally I’d rather read a good Tom Clancy novel.

And for all practical purposed it has nothing to do with what I was saying.

People will interpret what the bible means to “them” the way “they” want to interpret it. It is written either by design or by accident in such an ambiguous form that most anyone can find almost any meaning they want. And wackos form all over the map have been doing that since the very first reading. Certainly you are aware of that.

I am not discrediting it or giving it credit…. It means to people what they want it to mean…. That’s ok with me… as long as the leave me out of it… Like I said, Tom Clancy is a better read as far as I am concerned…

I don’t need a book to tell me not to kill, or steal of sleep with my neighbors wife….. The idea that anyone would, is nonsense as far as I am concerned… Moral value and decency is in your heart and you sole… not in any book…..

There are bible scholars of world-renowned fame, as good as anyone in this room I would bet, that do not agree on much form the Bible…..

Your suggestion that I or anyone else is a lesser person because we maybe haven’t “studied” the bible is offensive. It is the exact sort of religious bs that tunes people off.

>>Have you studied the Bible Flosum? Have you studied the historical documents that coincide with the Bible? Or the documents and other writings that verify the Biblical stories in the Bible?<<

Well, those were your words. That's fairly easy to "internalize". But not to worry, it would probably suprise you to find ot how much more we agree on this then disagree.

I just do not think the bible has all the answers and may not have any of them for some. There are a lot of good people in the world that never read the bible, never have, nvever will, that live a great and wonderful life. Then on the other hand there are jail cells holding some religious wackos that can quote chapter and verse of the bible with the best of them.

I think reading the bible when done for all the right reasons can be a great and wonderful thing, for some people. But I also think it is too easily interpreted to mean something less then the intent of the authors. It is just a bit to ambiguous to me, not to mention boring.

So if you don’t like Tom Clancy as a comparison, try Bill Bennett’s Book of Virtues.