[QUOTE]Originally posted by cxt: would lead me to think that HG is anything more than kumdo.

(and as stated, could be wrong here--but WHY)

Or LESS than Kumdo, which turns the question into something like "which is more effective kendo or kendo?"

Seems that folks feel that HG is somehow different. Cool, then can you please explain what those differences are?????

And why they should matter in terms of "deadlyness?"[/QUOTE]

kumdo = Korean version of Japanese Kendo. No difference that I'm aware of. Basic weapon - shanai. This is a sport. period. I'm making no reference as to what it may or may not emulate. It, in and of itself is only a sport.

HDGD = Realistic Slicing techniques and forms to develop those techniques. Weapons - bokken and eventually a katana.

They have very little in common. I hope that explains the difference. As far as "the deadliest". I was making a sarcastic example of why neither one should be any less deadly than the other. I should have been a little clearer. Sorry.

cxt - You're not being a pain at all. I made a statement which you wanted clarification on. It's called discussion and I enjoy it. Maybe by the end of this thread, you'll have proved yourself to be 100% right and me all wrong. The worst that happens is I learned someting new. It's all good!

As far as I know, Kumdo is directly related to the Japanese occupation. It has no ancient history at all. This can be debated until the end of days because there is no way to prove or disprove it. You can agree or not as you see fit.

HDGD however, is not. Again, can I prove it? No. But neither can anyone else, either way. I just find it hard (actually impossible) to believe no such art existed in Korea before the occupation.

You had mentioned Kendo practitioners incorporating Iaido or such into there curriculum. I know that some schools do, but mine does not. Mine is strictly armoured sparring with a shanai and the exercises and forms related to that end. Nothing more. Sport.Maybe it's because they cross-train and incorporate multiple MA's, or maybe that's what most Kendo schools do and mine is the exception. Couldn't tell one way or the other. If that's your experience with Kendo, then I can certainly see why you would challenge my statement. But I hope with this and previous explanations, you can also see why to me, they're as different as night and day.

There was a group practicing Haidong Gumdo before our class on Thursdays (they've since moved). If this is the Haidong Gumdo you're talking about, and Kumdo is basically kendo (bogu, shinai, etc.), then they are very different from each other.

What I saw in Haidong Gumdo is basically kenjutsu/iai. There might be paired forms, but I haven't seen any. The kata are usually much longer than what we do in Iai. We had a kind of inside joke going about their techniques -- whatever we tell you never to do in Iai, do it and you'll be doing Haidong Gumdo. Obviously false, but it had a kernel of truth in it. Turn your bakc on your opponent? Check. Jump in the air? Check. Twirl the sword around, do fancy moves? Check. Roll on the ground, on your sword? Check.

The kata would last a minute or more, and they would stop midway to allow the sensei to roll out mats on the floor for them to roll on.

Again, I've no experience with Korean arts, I surely can't evaluate any kind of effectiveness of it, etc. They might have reasons to roll on their swords, techniques to prevent damage to it, etc. But they seem to be a polar opposite of what we do, in a way.

As far as which is better, kendo or Haidong gumdo? Ehhh, why are we at this again. Samurai or Ninja? Katana or Rapier? Streetfighter or Boxer? Wing chun or MMA? Superman or Batman? Simpsons or South Park? Does it make a difference, really?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by splice:As far as which is better, kendo or Haidong gumdo? Ehhh, why are we at this again. Samurai or Ninja? Katana or Rapier? Streetfighter or Boxer? Wing chun or MMA? Superman or Batman? Simpsons or South Park? Does it make a difference, really?[/QUOTE]

Splice,

The topic never was (Thank God) about which is better. I never have (or will) reply to such a topic. They're pointless. Cxt was merely asking what the difference was, which I was apparently unable to clarify for him.

Oh, and I never had to roll around on any mats. I've only been doing it for about 3 years. Maybe that's more advanced. lol.

If you're talking about battlefield effectiveness than obviously Haidong Gumdo would be more effective considering it's designed for that arena.

Gumdo and Kendo are VERY different.

Gumdo and Kenjutsu are basically identical.

In Kendo you strike to well armored points on the body, your objective is to score points. It's a game.

In HDGD you would strike anywhere on the body with a preferance for targets that are usually less heavily armored. It is also taught to keep in mind what cuts will merely injure or debilitate your opponent and what will actually kill them.

In Kendo/Kumdo you generally aren't taught to actually cut things, merely hit them. Effectively cutting with a live blade is very difficult and requires very different motions.

In Kendo/Kumdo your environment is very different. You're expecting to fight a single opponent in a ring of some kind with defined rules.

Haidong Gumdo is designed for encounters involving multiple enemies with intent to kill you. Forms reflect this quite obviously.

Splice you may be surprised to learn your many Haidong Gumdo practices are nearly identical to those of your Iaido. Your teachers may say "never turn your back on an enemy" and with just one enemy this is certainly true but what if you're faced with multiple opponents coming from multiple angles? You MUST turn your back on some of them to engage one or two at a time. Your motion is likely going to be very circular much like with open hand crowd fighting tactics. In most cases jumping is not a good idea, yet in some it can be extremely useful for covering ground quickly, surprising an enemy who's attacking from behind, evading one opponents attack and simultaneously attacking another. Rolling is rarely used but can be extremely useful evasively. Daito Ryu Aikijutsu was primarily for use in armed combat and it involves lots of throwing. What should you do if your opponent evades your cut and throws you? Roll out of it and either attempt to use that motion to attack them or assume a defensive position as quickly as possible. Aikido students should be familiar with this given their training includes plenty of grappling and throwing with weapons.

Haidong Gumdo and Kenjutsu simply include so many things that Kendo and Kumdo do not. In a Kendo match they'll probably be pretty even but in more realistic situations the Kenjutsu or Haidong stylist will have vastly broader training to address the extremely variable situations actual combat.

Kendo practitioners don't use their hands and feet to strike and throw, they don't train for blade locks or encounters with enemies on anything but a level plain. Iaido teaches you how to begin an encounter but what if it keeps going after your sword is drawn and you make those first few cuts? Haidong Gumdo really isn't so different from other sword styles it simply includes a vastly braoder cariculum.