Your logic is flawed. To say that for the "vast majority of time", 120 miles is sufficient for the "vast majority" is a bit like saying that for 99% of the time, the vast majority of the time, most people don't need running water. The idea of people renting cars whenever they need to go on holiday, Christmas, visit aged relatives, visit friends etc. is not an attractive proposition for most people because of the hassle, let alone the cost.

Your glowing appraisal of electric vehicles relies on a ludicrously tiny number of charging stations.

You seem to think that stopping for half an hour on a motorway to wait for your car to recharge is preferable to filling up in a couple of minutes! What world are you living in?

You talk about battery-swapping being cheap and quick, but you say that it's a feature being developed, so that's a non-existent feature at the present time.

"There are currently 14 Supercharger stations in Europe. These stations recharge the Tesla battery in 30 minutes at no charge to the vehicle owner. If you travel with friends or family, then your passengers will want to eat and shop at each stop during your journey. Your battery will be recharged long before your passengers finish their meals."

This is just a hilarious paragraph! Oh dear, I'm running low on electricity, so I’ll just nip along to my local Supercharger in Europe—oh, there are only 14 you say? That'll be a 500 mile trip to the nearest then...

Ignoring the facts does not change the facts. The Supercharger network is a convenience that Tesla provides for its customers. A Supercharger recharges your Tesla in 30 minutes and it does so gratis. Absolutely hilarious. If a Supercharger is not convenient to your location, then you may recharge anywhere there is electricity. And if hyou have to pay, then you have to pay. You pay for petroleum fuel. There is no reason that you should pay for electricity. LMAO.

Among the places that you may recharge are any of the growing recharging stands that localities are setting-up for their citizens, and companies are setting-up for their employees. Contrary to your statement, recharging stations are being setup in apartment buildings and condominiums.

Oh yes, Roger Demmon recently drove his Tesla Model S from McAllen, Texas, USA to Panama City, Panama. If you are not a migrant farm worker, it is unlikely that you will drive a private vehicle from Texas to Panama. However, Demmon proved that if you want to make the drive, then you can. You can do it now and you can do it in a Tesla.

Ignoring the facts does not change the facts. The Supercharger network is a convenience that Tesla provides for its customers. A Supercharger recharges your Tesla in 30 minutes and it does so gratis. Absolutely hilarious. If a Supercharger is not convenient to your location, then you may recharge anywhere there is electricity. And if hyou have to pay, then you have to pay. You pay for petroleum fuel. There is no reason that you should pay for electricity. LMAO.

Among the places that you may recharge are any of the growing recharging stands that localities are setting-up for their citizens, and companies are setting-up for their employees. Contrary to your statement, recharging stations are being setup in apartment buildings and condominiums.

Oh yes, Roger Demmon recently drove his Tesla Model S from McAllen, Texas, USA to Panama City, Panama. If you are not a migrant farm worker, it is unlikely that you will drive a private vehicle from Texas to Panama. However, Demmon proved that if you want to make the drive, then you can. You can do it now and you can do it in a Tesla.

I don't think anyone is questioning whether the supercharger stations are convenient for Tesla owners near such a station, but in terms of where automobiles are used to today the paltry numbers are just not good enough for the average automobile owner to give up their internal combustion engine.

Again, I don't think anyone here is against more of these stations being built and for Tesla to get an increasingly larger part of the automobile market. In fact, I think everyone here would love to see that happen.

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I don't think anyone is questioning whether the supercharger stations are convenient for Tesla owners near such a station, but in terms of where automobiles are used to today the paltry numbers are just not good enough for the average automobile owner to give up their internal combustion engine.

Again, I don't think anyone here is against more of these stations being built and for Tesla to get an increasingly larger part of the automobile market. In fact, I think everyone here would love to see that happen.

Au contraire. There is something about electric vehicles that that bothers certain people at a visceral level. This is a Mac/Apple fan site. Those of us who remember a time before the Mac was based on Intel processors remember the hostility that certain MS-DOS--and later Windows users--held for the Mac.

I also frequent a few automobile fan sites. Believe me, the attitudes on display here pretty much mirror the attitudes toward electric vehicles on display at those sites. The hatred for electric vehicles is strongest against those vehicles such as fuel cell and high-capacity battery-powered EVs that have the range to make them competitive on a practical basis with fossil-fueled vehicles. The Chevrolet Volt has an electric-only range of only about 35-40 miles. The only criticism of it is its expense. Fuel cell EV? You wouldn't get longer more passionate anti-FCEV screeds if the hydrogen source were baby seal blubber.

I have come to the conclusion that the reaction is not just a fear of change but a revulsion to change. Fortunately, this is attitude is limited to a tiny few--at least when it comes to technological change. The Macintosh worn the computer argument. The only dispute is whether you use the Microsoft version of the Macintosh or the Apple version. The electric vehicle will also win. Several exotic supercars now can be driven short distances on electric power alone. Even when running on petroleum power, their torque and power are substantially enhanced by their electric motors.

Au contraire. There is something about electric vehicles that that bothers certain people at a visceral level.

[…]

The times, they are a-changing.

I can see that, so I guess I understand a little more the desire to defend Tesla here even though I don't think anyone in this conversation is bothered by the notion of an electric car. I'm certainly hoping for them to gain a more dominate place in society.

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I don't think anyone is questioning whether the supercharger stations are convenient for Tesla owners near such a station, but in terms of where automobiles are used to today the paltry numbers are just not good enough for the average automobile owner to give up their internal combustion engine.

Again, I don't think anyone here is against more of these stations being built and for Tesla to get an increasingly larger part of the automobile market. In fact, I think everyone here would love to see that happen.

You don't understand the purpose of the Superchargers. They exist solely for the purpose of enabling convenient long distance travel. For that reason they are located along major highways between cities, not inside of cities. The closest supercharger to me is 70 miles which is PERFECT for my long distance trips.

For daily commutes Model S owners charge in the most convenient location possible, at our own homes. Drive home at night, plug in, sleep, wake up, leave home fully charged. It's a beautiful cycle I've had the pleasure of experiencing for the past year.

The only car I own is a Model S and I will never ever buy another gas burning car. Until you experience it you just won't understand. It's like trying to explain the usefulness of an iPad to someone that's never used a tablet.

You don't understand the purpose of the Superchargers. They exist solely for the purpose of enabling convenient long distance travel. For that reason they are located along major highways between cities, not inside of cities. The closest supercharger to me is 70 miles which is PERFECT for my long distance trips.

For daily commutes Model S owners charge in the most convenient location possible, at our own homes. Drive home at night, plug in, sleep, wake up, leave home fully charged. It's a beautiful cycle I've had the pleasure of experiencing for the past year.

The only car I own is a Model S and I will never ever buy another gas burning car. Until you experience it you just won't understand. It's like trying to explain the usefulness of an iPad to someone that's never used a tablet.

As previous noted but another poster a great many people live in home that don't have private garages. Even affluent people with nice homes and cars can commonly use street parking. It's what I use so how would I reasonably charge my Model S if it's on the street?

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As previous noted but another poster a great many people live in home that don't have private garages. Even affluent people with nice homes and cars can commonly use street parking. It's what I use so how would I reasonably charge my Model S if it's on the street?

That's a good point. There are people that live places where EV charging is simply not an option at this time. That will change overtime but I would wager that the majority of people have the means to get a local charger installed.

Tesla wins no matter what though. If other auto manufacturers make EVs then it validates Tesla's business model and many more people will consider purchasing an EV. This in turn will result in the number of charging stations increasing exponentially.

On the other hand, if other car manufacturers resist making EVs then Tesla will grow into an unbeatable beast of a company and put other old school car makers out of business. Eventually the masses will be exposed to EVs and realize how much better they are than their dinosaur burning cars.

As previous noted but another poster a great many people live in home that don't have private garages. Even affluent people with nice homes and cars can commonly use street parking. It's what I use so how would I reasonably charge my Model S if it's on the street?

Regrettably accurate. I'd love to go all-electric, but I don't own a home so a hybrid would be my only real alternative to consider.

Regrettably accurate. I'd love to go all-electric, but I don't own a home so a hybrid would be my only real alternative to consider.

You don't need to own a home. 4 months after I got my Model S I sold my home and moved to a high rise apartment building downtown. I chose this specific building because they have 3 public chargers in the parking garage. If you rent like I do then make it a prerequisite for the apartment.

Why wouldn't you want to count what people potentially do with a car? My parents didn't need a station wagon for the family except for the infrequent road trips but they bought one with that in mind. My father, who drove to and from work every day would have loved to have instead had a two-seat convertible but it's impractical for the bigger picture so why would you or anyone else make an isolated scenario that doesn't cover the real world driving habits that people do use their vehicles for, even if infrequently?

If you are not lazy, spend a few minutes and calculate the cost of owning a vehicle that is used very infrequently. Then compare the cost of owning such a vehicle to renting one for the duration you think you would need it. Then, consider the fact that you would not need to have another parking space (or garage space) for such a vehicle if you were to rent it. Don't forget to include annual insurance cost for owning such a vehicle, annual property tax on such a vehicle, annual tag renewal fee, the sales tax you would pay on such a vehicle, the depreciation that will eat into the value of this vehicle from the minute you drive off the dealer's lot till the time you sell (or trade in) such a vehicle, etc.

Americans have a twisted idea about vehicle ownership mostly due to the lack of public transportation or alternative ways of getting yourself from point A to point B. I know many Canadians who do not own any vehicle, but make regular weekend trips outside of the cities where they live by renting a vehicle for a weekend. It comes out much cheaper to do this vs. owning a vehicle. As long as you do not need to use your vehicle for the daily commute, NOT owning a vehicle is a better financial decision.

In the case of an electric car like Nissan Leaf (and hopefully a more affordable Tesla model that was promised to be within the $30,000 range), as long as your daily needs are covered within the range that the electric car provides, it may make a lot more sense NOT to own a conventional internal-combustion-engine vehicle and rent one when you need to travel farther than the range of your electric car. With time, this problem will become less and less prominent because (like it's already a case with Tesla), you can get 170 miles worth of range by having your car charged for 30 minutes by a Super Charging Station. You can literally go have lunch and be able to drive another 250-300 miles. And for Tesla owners, this charging is FREE. I don't think Tesla will continue to subsidize the electric charge once they release a mass-market car costing in the $30,000 range, but still, you will be saving hundreds (if not thousands) of dollars vs owning a comparable internal-combustion-engine vehicle.

As previous noted but another poster a great many people live in home that don't have private garages. Even affluent people with nice homes and cars can commonly use street parking. It's what I use so how would I reasonably charge my Model S if it's on the street?

A lot of employers will have charging stations installed at employer's parking lot or parking garage. Stores will have charging stations at their parking lots. Where I live, Kohl's has already installed charging stations on their parking lots. There's nothing that prevents the owner of your apartment from installing chargers on the curb of the dedicated parking spaces. Is this something feasible in the near future for you? Probably not. Do you HAVE to buy an EV? If you do, change your housing situation. If you don't, stay where you are.

It's almost the same argument as with owning an Apple device. There are many reasons NOT to own one. Apple doesn't care if you own one or not. Tesla doesn't care if you own their car or not either. They have a waiting list of 3 months right now with the cheapest car costing $65,000. When they drop the price to the $30,000 range on their mass-market EV, they will not have enough capacity to make enough cars to satisfy the demand - if you can't own one because you have no place to charge it, Tesla will not go out of business.

If you are not lazy, spend a few minutes and calculate the cost of owning a vehicle that is used very infrequently. Then compare the cost of owning such a vehicle to renting one for the duration you think you would need it. Then, consider the fact that you would not need to have another parking space (or garage space) for such a vehicle if you were to rent it. Don't forget to include annual insurance cost for owning such a vehicle, annual property tax on such a vehicle, annual tag renewal fee, the sales tax you would pay on such a vehicle, the depreciation that will eat into the value of this vehicle from the minute you drive off the dealer's lot till the time you sell (or trade in) such a vehicle, etc.

Americans have a twisted idea about vehicle ownership mostly due to the lack of public transportation or alternative ways of getting yourself from point A to point B. I know many Canadians who do not own any vehicle, but make regular weekend trips outside of the cities where they live by renting a vehicle for a weekend. It comes out much cheaper to do this vs. owning a vehicle. As long as you do not need to use your vehicle for the daily commute, NOT owning a vehicle is a better financial decision.

In the case of an electric car like Nissan Leaf (and hopefully a more affordable Tesla model that was promised to be within the $30,000 range), as long as your daily needs are covered within the range that the electric car provides, it may make a lot more sense NOT to own a conventional internal-combustion-engine vehicle and rent one when you need to travel farther than the range of your electric car. With time, this problem will become less and less prominent because (like it's already a case with Tesla), you can get 170 miles worth of range by having your car charged for 30 minutes by a Super Charging Station. You can literally go have lunch and be able to drive another 250-300 miles. And for Tesla owners, this charging is FREE. I don't think Tesla will continue to subsidize the electric charge once they release a mass-market car costing in the $30,000 range, but still, you will be saving hundreds (if not thousands) of dollars vs owning a comparable internal-combustion-engine vehicle.

1) Starting off your comment with "If you're not lazy… " isn't a good way to give an audience.

2) The cost for a Model S is much higher than an internal combustion engine. I don't have to calculate anything. Even if the electric was free and even if Elon personally came at night with a portable power truck to charge it it for free it would still cost me more to by a Model S because the price different is so great.

3) You have an odd argument to back up your comments about Americans having twisted ideas about cars. Perhaps you need to look at it from the perspective of an American. You can start with NYC.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirozha

A lot of employers will have charging stations installed at employer's parking lot or parking garage.

1) Again with all these will have comments. These are no different than when people sign up to AI just to stated how Apple sucks because Windows or Blackberry or Android/Google (or even wireless carriers) will have this or that. If there is a roadmap for that then that's great but why for it to actually exist before putting a feature in your cap and announcing it as a reason to buy an electric car today.

2) You aren't doing yourself any favours here with these arguments but telling people to move. That is not reasonable solution. Buying any Apple product I can plug into a wall socket or a computer with USB-A (2.0) just like I can with any other mobile device which makes Apple v others not the same as electric v internal combustion.Edited by SolipsismX - 2/21/14 at 7:34am

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1) Starting off your comment with "If you're not lazy… " isn't a good way to give an audience.

2) The cost for a Model S is much higher than an internal combustion engine. I don't have to calculate anything. Even if the electric was free and even if Elon personally came at night with a portable power truck to charge it it for free it would still cost me more to by a Model S because the price different is so great.

3) You have an odd argument to back up your comments about Americans having twisted ideas about cars. Perhaps you need to look at it from the perspective of an American. You can start with NYC.
1) Again with all these will have comments. These are no different than when people sign up to AI just to stated how Apple sucks because Windows or Blackberry or Android/Google (or even wireless carriers) will have this or that. If there is a roadmap for that then that's great but why for it to actually exist before putting a feature in your cap and announcing it as a reason to buy an electric car today.

2) You aren't doing yourself any favours here with these arguments but telling people to move. That is not reasonable solution. Buying any Apple product I can plug into a wall socket or a computer with USB-A (2.0) just like I can with any other mobile device which makes Apple v others not the same as electric v internal combustion.

If you read my comment more attentively, you will see that I never made an argument that a Model S can compare favorably in the cost of ownership with owning an "internal-combustion-engine" vehicle. I was speaking about Nissan Leaf and the future Tesla that will cost in the $30,000 range.

My argument about the "twisted ideas about owning a vehicle" was directed at the notion that one would buy a truck in order to "haul stuff". I cannot tell you how many times I have heard this argument from various people who were in the market for a pickup truck. When I asked them how many times they would "haul stuff" per year, they would tell me that a couple times. They never considered the fact that you can actually rent a truck to "haul stuff," and it would cost you much less than buying a truck just to "haul stuff" a few times per year.

I was not "telling people to move". On the contrary, I was saying that the person who has no infrastructure at the current place of residence to charge an electric car should NOT buy an electric car. Only if they HAVE to buy an electric car, they should look for another place to live where charging such a car is feasible.

Finally, my point was that Tesla is going to do just fine whether you, as an individual, will decide to buy or NOT to buy their car. They have such huge demand for their cars already (with the cheapest one costing just under $65,000) that they can't make enough of them to satisfy the demand; hence the 3-month-long waiting list. Once Tesla releases the $30,000 mass-market car, whose cost of ownership will be favorable to the internal-combustion-engine cars of a similar price range, there will be no lack in demand. Tesla, like Apple, is not interested in the market share. Instead, they are interested in making best products.

My argument about the "twisted ideas about owning a vehicle" was directed at the notion that one would buy a truck in order to "haul stuff". I cannot tell you how many times I have heard this argument from various people who were in the market for a pickup truck. When I asked them how many times they would "haul stuff" per year, they would tell me that a couple times. They never considered the fact that you can actually rent a truck to "haul stuff," and it would cost you much less than buying a truck just to "haul stuff" a few times per year.

You can buy a truck that seat 5 people comfortably so why is it wrong for them to want a vehicle that supports their year-long needs, not just their commute to work needs?Edited by SolipsismX - 2/21/14 at 8:08am

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You don't need to own a home. 4 months after I got my Model S I sold my home and moved to a high rise apartment building downtown. I chose this specific building because they have 3 public chargers in the parking garage. If you rent like I do then make it a prerequisite for the apartment.

[quote name="sirozha" url="/t/162068/apple-secretly-met-with-tesla-ceo-elon-musk-also-working-on-tech-to-predict-heart-attacks/120#post_2475445"My argument about the "twisted ideas about owning a vehicle" was directed at the notion that one would buy a truck in order to "haul stuff". I cannot tell you how many times I have heard this argument from various people who were in the market for a pickup truck. When I asked them how many times they would "haul stuff" per year, they would tell me that a couple times. They never considered the fact that you can actually rent a truck to "haul stuff," and it would cost you much less than buying a truck just to "haul stuff" a few times per year.[/quote]

You can buy a truck that seat 5 people comfortably so why is it wrong for them to want a vehicle that supports their year-long needs, not just their commute to work needs?

That's where my "if you are not lazy ..." statement was directed. A huge 5-seater truck bought to "satisfy both needs" is a bad financial decision. Compare the gas mileage of such a truck to a regular family sedan, the price premium, the difference is sales tax, property tax, insurance, etc. It makes no financial sense to purchase a pickup truck that "serves both needs". By the same token, purchasing a Tesla Model S at today's price makes no financial sense. It does make sense to buy such a car for other reasons - if you are not trying to save money, you are environmentally inclined, you are into new technology, you love the way the electric car drives, etc.

That's where my "if you are not lazy ..." statement was directed. A huge 5-seater truck bought to "satisfy both needs" is a bad financial decision. Compare the gas mileage of such a truck to a regular family sedan, the price premium, the difference is sales tax, property tax, insurance, etc. It makes no financial sense to purchase a pickup truck that "serves both needs". By the same token, purchasing a Tesla Model S at today's price makes no financial sense. It does make sense to buy such a car for other reasons - if you are not trying to save money, you are environmentally inclined, you are into new technology, you love the way the electric car drives, etc.

No financial sense? None? It's odd with all these fringe use cases for an electric car that you can't think of a single fringe use case that might require a 5 seat pickup truck that doesn't need to haul much in the bed day to day. Off-road and towing capabilities readily come to mind.

Again (and for the last time), I'm all for electric vehicles. If Tesla doesn't make it I think their legacy will and electric cars are the future (even though hybrids will make a lot more sense to most for the foreseeable future, even if the engine is just a quiet compressor to charge the battery at night from a remote location), but I think there is a lot of emotion going into these pro-Tesla arguments that isn't helping your case.

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It's a good argument and definitely makes more sense than Apple buying Tesla outright. I really do hope Apple is one of the partners for the Gigafactory. I also hope Tesla uses iOS in the car along with A8 processors to run the entertainment system.

It's a good argument and definitely makes more sense than Apple buying Tesla outright. I really do hope Apple is one of the partners for the Gigafactory. I also hope Tesla uses iOS in the car along with A8 processors to run the entertainment system.

If anyone were to get iOS as part of the in-dash system I'd think it would be Tesla, but I'm betting that it'll just be iOS in the Car which I think is essentially AirPlay that will overlay onto a wide range of automaker in-dash systems.

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The only real criticism they have against a buyout is a potential culture clash but it's not as if they'd have to be in the same offices and Tesla has under 6,000 employees vs 55,000+ HQ staff at Apple. I wouldn't even expect them to rebrand anything because Tesla is a great brand. It could be like the Claris setup.

Tesla might not need cash support any more though. They released their 10K for 2013:

$2b revenue with a net loss of $74m, which is a huge improvement over 2012. They also have over $1b in cash so if their losses stay better than 2013, they can survive a while. Although it's still loss-making, when you are building cars with the potential to be driverless for the blind, you don't think about the bloody ROI.

If Tesla can go it alone, that would be the easier route to go down for both. If they do just use batteries, I wonder if they'll be branded Tesla inside Apple's products. That would be neat and passes the blame to them if they go on fire.