If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

A different approach to GTH

It occurred to me earlier that the majority of our ideas and suggestions about GTH have revolved around draining the targets nano in such a way that it still crippled/severely hindered their casting abilities. The idea is sound, it's the implementation that everyone has the problem with.

What if we changed GTH to take a bit of a different approach than the current style of thought?

(Note: any numbers presented here are just pulled from thin air for the sake of the example/suggestion)

Currently the focus on GTH is in how it drains an opponents nano and gives it to the trader, obviously this cripples the opponents nano abilities while boosting the Traders, and even suggestions to modifying GTH still rest on this initial premise of draining nano.

What if GTH drained nanopool instead of nano?

Lets say you cast GTH on a target. Rather than draining away the targets nano, GTH instead reduces their total nanopool to say, 10% of their normal max for an NT, 20% of max for other targets (so if an NT normally has a 35k nanopool it gets reduced to 3500 for the duration of GTH), and the trader gets a bonus to their max nanopool for the duration; say, an extra 10k max nano vs an NT, 5k for other targets, as well as the new larger nanopool being filled to that new max, kinda like a mini Izgimmer's wealth.

No ticking nanodrain, no effect on nanodelta, simply literal nanopool theft. The reduced nanopool size still accomplishes the objective of withering the opponent to a shell of their former nano casting abilities, but doesn't leave them totally hopeless for nano.

I'd say a 30s duration and a 1 target at a time rule (ie; can't GTH a second target just like the current implementation) should be fine for pvp as well.

Look at your post, now back at mine. Now back to your post, now back at mine. Sadly, yours isn't mine, but if you stopped trolling and started posting legitimate comments it could look like mine. Look down, back up, where are you? You're scrolling through posts, reading the posts your posts could look like. Back at mine, it's a reply saying something you want to hear. Look again, my reply is now diamonds. Anything is possible when you think before you post.

There is literally nothing wrong with {Shutdown Skills} in it's current incarnation. What should be being looked at is the reason why it's needed so much. E.g, the incredible amount of Alpha being thrown around and the fickleness of Evade profs.

Originally Posted by Cratertina

I walk in to BS... could not perk people... with 3704 AR and 300 AAD drain... NT facerolled me, shade instagibbed me, after a few minutes I just decided not gonna bother.

I was mainly laying out the core idea, some tweaks would be necessary ofc.

Plagiarize also has a recharge time long enough to make it a position of choice between Plagiarize or drains, etc.

Worst case ya could just make it not stack with GTH, with GTH being the superior nano in the stacking order.

Additionally in hindsight it would probably be prudent to make the buff on the trader side only fill up nano to the amount of the newly buffed amount, to prevent a trader with an almost empty nanopool suddenly getting a free full nanopool refill with benefits by landing GTH on someone (ie; if a trader gets 5k max nanopool, it should also give the trader 5k nano to fill the amount of the buff).

Look at your post, now back at mine. Now back to your post, now back at mine. Sadly, yours isn't mine, but if you stopped trolling and started posting legitimate comments it could look like mine. Look down, back up, where are you? You're scrolling through posts, reading the posts your posts could look like. Back at mine, it's a reply saying something you want to hear. Look again, my reply is now diamonds. Anything is possible when you think before you post.

Still need to see what FC decides to do about nano delta. Even tho I think most people would embrace the nerf of GTH, I still think it needs to have some kind of WTF factor to it. Just taking away som nano won't have a big effect as it is now when people have a lot of -na% cost and a huge nano delta. Most of my toons have no ip in nano pool at all just because it's not needed. So the only thing the suggested change would bring is possibly even more whining since it might mean that everyone (actively using nanos) has to raise nano pool just in case you might get GTH'd, without benefitting the trader much. The nano added to the trader from GTH combined with NBD is one of the few emergency defenses we have atm. Without GTH this nano would be pretty useless in its current state.

It's an interesting idea. It would LIMIT the opponents options rather than taking all of them away completely. This does fit with the Trader mantra. We're not really supposed to completely shut someone down. We're supposed to limit their options in order to level the playing field.

The amount of nanopool that each affected profession is left with would probably have to be designed and balanced so that each profession loses the right amount of options by the exact amount of nanopool removed. So nanocost of each professions tools and their nano-regen abilities would have to be taken into account to properly balance the right amount of nanopool they should be left with. Having that said, there's not really anything wrong with using a general number that is the same for every profession and thus having some profession be affected more or less than others. It's not really required for GTH to work equally well against everyone.

What flaw? Leaving a target with some nano is not a flaw. Removing a massive chunk of someone's nano is a big deal.

That's not what I meant, my apologies for the misclarity.

1) Endgame nanos do not cost very much nanopool. If the nanodelta of the target is not modified or slowed down, and the Trader does not have Accumulator perked (which does not play nice with reflect shields) they'll need to use Plagiarize Notum to strip nano to zero; if it doesn't land, GTH has really not done much.

However, a point is raised: many characters do not bother to raise their NanoPool skill, and as a result have about 4-8k NanoPool depending on breed and profession. 20% of that would be 800-1400 NanoPool, an admittedly small amount.

2) Bouncing on the nanodelta: too much nanoregeneration is in the game at the moment to have GTH have a discernable effect on players' nanopool. I myself have zero IP in nanopool (6k NP) and I have never in my life have run out of nanopool; and I'd almost be willing to say that bar a few high-cost debuffs (as my gear does not focus on -nanocost) I could still live with the limited amount of nanopool (other traders can give their friends +1000 NanoPool to counteract this version of GTH's effect, remember).

Even with that said, this is a very reasonable suggestion and with the right amount of number-crunching can make a very effective and yet well-balanced nano. Just keep those two points in mind.

There is literally nothing wrong with {Shutdown Skills} in it's current incarnation. What should be being looked at is the reason why it's needed so much. E.g, the incredible amount of Alpha being thrown around and the fickleness of Evade profs.

Originally Posted by Cratertina

I walk in to BS... could not perk people... with 3704 AR and 300 AAD drain... NT facerolled me, shade instagibbed me, after a few minutes I just decided not gonna bother.

I like the idea, but as Chrazy said it would make the NBD useless imo.

It wouldn't make NBD useless, as NBD has always been an "oh crud" button. Traders still have the potential to use YEEIYF and its nano hot, and don't forget that the trader would be getting a boost to their max nano for the duration of gth as well which would extend the amount of incoming dd mitigation possible, more in line to what NT's have using IW and NBG.

And to be fair, the most use GTH in its current state is in regards to NBD is to keep some nano to cast during nanobot depletion. It certainly doesn't keep our nano topped up while dd is flying at us; after that initial batch of dd kills our nanopool, very little additional dd gets mitigated as we end up living off those ticks to cast heals/drains.

With that in mind I suppose it could be a compromise/tweak to add in a nanodelta buff on the trader for the duration of GTH as well since the theft would be supercharging the traders nanopool, though I am hesitant to say it is absolutely necessary in the interests of overall balance.

That's not what I meant, my apologies for the misclarity.
1) Endgame nanos do not cost very much nanopool. If the nanodelta of the target is not modified or slowed down, and the Trader does not have Accumulator perked (which does not play nice with reflect shields) they'll need to use Plagiarize Notum to strip nano to zero; if it doesn't land, GTH has really not done much.

Endgame nanos have varying costs across professions, and you might be surprised how much you would not be casting with such a limited pool.

The idea here is specifically that the affected profession is not necessarily reduced to zero nanopool, but that their ability to effectively cast is significantly hindered.

For example: If a doc has 15k nanopool normally, and that is reduced to 3000 nano (following the 20% of max for non-nt targets example), they're not exactly going to be able to spam heals forever are they? Sure they'll get one or 2 off before they run out of nano themselves, maybe more with use of genius/stims, but their overall casting ability will be limited, which is the point.

We're looking to create a situation where the debuff makes it more difficult to function, not necessarily impossible. That is the point of making an opponent a withered shell of their former self. In this respect, plagiarize is not necessary (and arguably shouldn't be usable in conjunction with a GTH that follows this functionality).

If an NT with a 45k nanopool gets dropped to 4500 max nano for 30s (with the 10% example) they're still going to be able to toss out some offense, or some minor defense with NBG plus any nanoheals they have, but they certainly are not going to have the offensive capability that they would have with the much larger nanopool are they? Withering has therefore been accomplished, they are unable to function at their peak, significantly weakening their position in the power scheme. A key point in this example being the significant reduction in the usefulness of NBG.

As for the trader that doesn't use accumulator, this is a choice. Choices have consequences. If the trader doesn't use accumulator, than their opponent will be that much more likely to retain and use their limited casting ability, whereas with accumulator there is a higher chance that casting ability will be further impaired.

Originally Posted by Saetos

However, a point is raised: many characters do not bother to raise their NanoPool skill, and as a result have about 4-8k NanoPool depending on breed and profession. 20% of that would be 800-1400 NanoPool, an admittedly small amount.

And not raising nanopool is a choice that would have more dire consequences as a result. Choices have consequences.

Originally Posted by Saetos

2) Bouncing on the nanodelta: too much nanoregeneration is in the game at the moment to have GTH have a discernable effect on players' nanopool. I myself have zero IP in nanopool (6k NP) and I have never in my life have run out of nanopool; and I'd almost be willing to say that bar a few high-cost debuffs (as my gear does not focus on -nanocost) I could still live with the limited amount of nanopool (other traders can give their friends +1000 NanoPool to counteract this version of GTH's effect, remember).

Ok, so you have 6k nano, with the 20% rule you'd have 1200, and if lend nano was used you'd have 2200 following your logic. How much are you gonna pull off with 2200 nano? Your NBD usefulness is impaired, your ability to debuff or heal is more limited, and you can't function at your peak. Job done, you have been withered.

Further, if a trader should hit a friend with lend nano, that's great. This isn't 1v1 pvp. It's in the traders interest to help their side. A doc gets lend nano? Great, that's an extra heal you've secured the possibility of. An NT gets lend nano? Great, that's another nuke. The list goes on. Cooperation like that *should* be possible, and a contributing factor to retaining usefulness in troubled situations. Besides, +1000 max nano is not going to completely counter the effect of GTH, it will just make it marginally less effective.

Originally Posted by Saetos

Even with that said, this is a very reasonable suggestion and with the right amount of number-crunching can make a very effective and yet well-balanced nano. Just keep those two points in mind.

Still need to see what FC decides to do about nano delta. Even tho I think most people would embrace the nerf of GTH, I still think it needs to have some kind of WTF factor to it. Just taking away som nano won't have a big effect as it is now when people have a lot of -na% cost and a huge nano delta. Most of my toons have no ip in nano pool at all just because it's not needed. So the only thing the suggested change would bring is possibly even more whining since it might mean that everyone (actively using nanos) has to raise nano pool just in case you might get GTH'd, without benefitting the trader much. The nano added to the trader from GTH combined with NBD is one of the few emergency defenses we have atm. Without GTH this nano would be pretty useless in its current state.

I'm just thinking out loud so all of it might not make any sense

If the max nanopool is dropped considerably enough, you don't need an empty pool to put casting professions into a difficult situation. There's plenty of nanos used by casters that have a pretty heavy cost.

NT nukes aren't exactly light and it flat negates the use of NBG without utterly removing the entire NT toolset. Docs could still do -some- healing but have to work to keep nano available while they fight, they certainly won't be spamming malpractice, but they'll still have -some- chance to defend themselves.

As an NT, I personally prefer the idea of having my pool dropped to around 5-8k, with the Trader able to use Plagiarize Notum, since I still have regen, delta, stims and perks to give me -some- fighting chance, while still having the NBG ruled out as an idea, but I can still do -some- fighting.

I like this idea, a lot and I don't think Plagiarize would over power it, considering the recharge time on it and the choices involved in casting that, or drains, or the Trader casting a heal on themselves, since the NT or other casting profession can still put up a fight.

The only caveat I'd want to add, is not making the nano so easily spammed to land. Given the change and a decent recharge however, I don't see a reason to restrict its use on a single target, or to have it stack higher than Plagiarize. Give it its own line and now we've got Traders doing their thing, getting a decent max nano buff for NBD (hey even keep the current GTH positive effects with the max nano buff for all I care, I've never had an issue with the positive effect on GTH that Traders get) and not just having an automatic IWIN button against casters.

Saetos and co need to get this thread shoved right under Kintaii's nose before they set in stone what they're going to do with GTH.

Saetos and co need to get this thread shoved right under Kintaii's nose before they set in stone what they're going to do with GTH.

I've been bugging the crew about GTH... unfortunately all we got so far is "The plan isn't finalized but we'll have something out soon." After the plan comes out, if there is widespread negative opinion about the "new" version then I will present this as a feasible alternative.

There is literally nothing wrong with {Shutdown Skills} in it's current incarnation. What should be being looked at is the reason why it's needed so much. E.g, the incredible amount of Alpha being thrown around and the fickleness of Evade profs.

Originally Posted by Cratertina

I walk in to BS... could not perk people... with 3704 AR and 300 AAD drain... NT facerolled me, shade instagibbed me, after a few minutes I just decided not gonna bother.

I've been bugging the crew about GTH... unfortunately all we got so far is "The plan isn't finalized but we'll have something out soon." After the plan comes out, if there is widespread negative opinion about the "new" version then I will present this as a feasible alternative.

Good counterpoints Lusthorne, btw.

Uuuhm...

No disrespect to you or the dev team but Saetos you need to be more forward and aggressive. We've seen the "quality" from the designers and the devs when it comes to GTH, it's what we've been stuck with for pushing 3 years now. This idea is sound and should be pushed in front of them for consideration now, not after they've been given chance to cook up another possibly insanely bad idea, where there's a good chance counter ideas could be coming too late because they've already patted each other on the behind on a good idea and gone to the local bar for drinks, like they did with the original.

It would still hurt a lot, but at least it would leave the chance for a little defense left and it would definitely encourage teaming as the help from certain other professions could lessen the effect a little.

For example: If a doc has 15k nanopool normally, and that is reduced to 3000 nano (following the 20% of max for non-nt targets example), they're not exactly going to be able to spam heals forever are they? Sure they'll get one or 2 off before they run out of nano themselves, maybe more with use of genius/stims, but their overall casting ability will be limited, which is the point.

I haven't played my doc in a long time (and I'm not very active atm at all), but having capped nano cost and very good nano delta a doc can actually spam heals forever. Doesn't matter if he has 20k nano pool or 5k, the cost is so low and with the nano delta it just how it is. Of course, they won't be malpractising all the time but you still won't kill the doc. As I wrote in my earlier post, we still have to see what FC does about the spamming nanos endlessly issue that we have today. Maybe this idea won't be so bad after all with other changes coming.

Deep down, it is an excellent idea. It definitely has a chance to be an awesome rework to GTH into a reasonable, yet powerful debuff.

A few suggestions:

If it becomes necessary, perhaps this nano could do something like Disable Natural Healing (Enf perk?). Essentially, that perk spaces out HD ticks by a huge amount for the duration, essentially disabling heal delta. Imagine the same thing, but disabling nano delta, NOT setting it negative and retaining 2s ticks.

However, a careful approach to how much %nanopool should be debuffed per profession will actually set this nano up to be extremely well designed.

If it becomes necessary, perhaps this nano could do something like Disable Natural Healing (Enf perk?). Essentially, that perk spaces out HD ticks by a huge amount for the duration, essentially disabling heal delta. Imagine the same thing, but disabling nano delta, NOT setting it negative and retaining 2s ticks.

Disable Natural healing disables both, Heal Delta AND Nano delta. Using the same mechnism for GTH had been suggested before as all thought negative ND was supposed to disable ND, but at that time we got the reply that negative ND draining nano was the intended function.

About my doc... if I am down to 20% pool that will shutdown both, malp and the casting of any dots. Heals will suck my dry even with 50% cost and 308 nano delta when coupled with accumultor and nano drain perks.

Disable Natural healing disables both, Heal Delta AND Nano delta. Using the same mechnism for GTH had been suggested before as all thought negative ND was supposed to disable ND, but at that time we got the reply that negative ND draining nano was the intended function.

About my doc... if I am down to 20% pool that will shutdown both, malp and the casting of any dots. Heals will suck my dry even with 50% cost and 308 nano delta when coupled with accumultor and nano drain perks.