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I don't like to talk for other people but I think the premise Yot wasn't agreeing to was to blame her childishness on her amnesia not about her being childhish, well that is what it looked like to me Yot could clarify this if he wants to.

But we could cut this by simply saying that you don't agree with this general concensus that I agree with and end it for good.

fact
noun
1.something that actually exists; reality; truth.
2.something known to exist or to have happened.
3.a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true.
4.something said to be true or supposed to have happened.

By this definition Ranka being Childish is indeed a fact.

No, it's not a fact. They key word in your definition is "truth." But "childish" is a subjective opinion. Opinions can't be facts.

And yes, it's the "childish" premise that I disagree with. You might as well ask, "Is losing his mother the reason Alto is so bland and cardboard?" Some people might not agree that he's bland.

Oh, and if you REALLY want to get nit-picky, "general consensus" is redundant. If it's consensus, then it's already general.

(EDIT: Actually, it's a lot more complicated than simply not thinking she's childish, but it's not an issue I'm terribly interested in, so that'll have to do.)

Take it as what you will. I honestly don't know what LMK is trying to pull answering the question, she is hardly a qualified individual to even remotely tackle the topic.

- Tak

I was trying to give some sort of reply, and possible facts, flashbacks, and whatever could be seen in the series, to answer her question. Given that there is no proof why Ranka is so-called "childish." I would say that that will never be answered.

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Originally Posted by magnuskn

The problem is that most of the growth she went through until episode 14 gets reversed after Gallia IV.

Not true. As I've said before, E15, 16, and 17 showed significant growth in Ranka. She decided to become a singer for Frontier rather than her fans and also went onto the battlefield twice (once without hesitation). The first time she fell afterward was E20 and no one seems to let her live that over. Honestly... She grew quite a bit where she could actually admit who gave her help: Sheryl and Alto (in that order). She also made the decision on her own to leave Frontier. She decided to find her past instead of asking for help again from people she'd depended on (Alto, Ozma, Sheryl, Nanase).

I believe that if Ranka was able to stand on her own two feet, that shows just how far she's grown.

Once again, stop blaming E24-25 on Ranka when if you looked back at the episode, Ranka's eyes are lifeless when Grace takes her over, meaning it was planned. So saying her character fell back due to that is just absurd. How would you like it if I stated Sheryl's character fell back in E25 because she was hit by Battle Galaxy's gun? That would count as failure: her giving up after saying she'd live up to her words. So before you fail a character, look at their predicament and condition. Ranka was in no condition - mental wise - to repel Grace and Sheryl was in no condition - physical wise - to stand back up.

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Originally Posted by Falcor

Stating that Ranka acts childish isn't meant as an insult - atleast not in the context of this discussion, so there's no reason to start an all-new debate on whether or not she was childish.

Actually it is considering she's already a loli.

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The original issue is whether or not Ranka's amnesia had any effect on her maturity.

There is actually no physical proof in the way of the novels, series, movies, or manga on whether or not her amnesia had any effect on her maturity. We can only take what we've been shown.

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I agree with Karice that Ranka did indeed mature by the end of the series; she was pretty much forced to by events beyond her control.

Thank you.

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At least both movies help "correct" (for lack of a better term) Ranka's monumental naivety immaturity and portray her as a normal teenage girl.

If you count her series self blending with her movie self to make her look unrealistic, then yes. And also, she already was a normal teenager in the series personality wise. Did we watch the same series? I already stated before that she showed very close resemblance to modern day teens in personality.

Stating that Ranka acts childish isn't meant as an insult - atleast not in the context of this discussion, so there's no reason to start an all-new debate on whether or not she was childish.

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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

Actually it is considering she's already a loli.

In that case, I apologize for the unintentional slur. Unfortunately, that was the impression I was left with while watching the series.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falcor

The original issue is whether or not Ranka's amnesia had any effect on her maturity.

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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

There is actually no physical proof in the way of the novels, series, movies, or manga on whether or not her amnesia had any effect on her maturity. We can only take what we've been shown.

Which is why it was brought up in the first place. It isn't much fun discussing what we already know, afterall. If it's done tactfully, such speculation can be enjoyable.

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Originally Posted by Falcor

I agree with Karice that Ranka did indeed mature by the end of the series; she was pretty much forced to by events beyond her control.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

Thank you.

You're Welcome. (See?, I'm not totally anti-Ranka...)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falcor

At least both movies help "correct" (for lack of a better term) Ranka's monumental naivety immaturity and portray her as a normal teenage girl.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

If you count her series self blending with her movie self to make her look unrealistic, then yes. And also, she already was a normal teenager in the series personality wise. Did we watch the same series? I already stated before that she showed very close resemblance to modern day teens in personality.

My original impression of Ranka was a typical loli trying to act more grown up around her older friends. Probably because of that, I still see her more or less in that light. I don't see that as a bad thing, BTW - if anything, I think that makes her series character more likable. Of course, having a younger sister that reminds me a great deal of Ranka probably doesn't help matters.

In that case, I apologize for the unintentional slur. Unfortunately, that was the impression I was left with while watching the series.

Yeah, people insult her that way by calling her childish. Most Macross Frontier fans are fans of Macross itself (1980s), so they're pretty old. They don't seem to realize (or if they do, they don't care) that Ranka represents normal teens in our time period now. What teens did back in the 80s is nothing compared to what they do now in the 21st century.

A lot of cheerleaders in high school nowadays are much like Ranka. Hell, even the popular kids are. I've yet to meet someone that is like Sheryl at all. If I ever find a person quite like her, maybe I'll see her as a more realistic character. And realize I'm only 20, so I've just graduated from high school around 2 or 3 years ago compared to most who are Macross fans (like Yot-chan for example of age).

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Which is why it was brought up in the first place. It isn't much fun discussing what we already know, afterall. If it's done tactfully, such speculation can be enjoyable.

Well, they seem to find the need to argue on the matter when it has no explanation.

To be honest: Ranka's amnesia is not the only problem to her possible "stunted growth." Now, we could assume that it is slightly due to Ozma's protectiveness over her and also being in an all girls' school (which I've been to boot camp for a few months and living with 27 girls sure made me crazy too), but we could also assume it is just her personality - a part of her that will never change.
There are lots of possibilities to why her personality comes out like this:
1- Ozma's protectiveness
2- all girls' school
3- just her personality
4- inherited from parents or significant other
5- trauma
6- amnesia
7- has a possible mental illness (ADD, ADHD, autism - just to name a few)
Just because it's an anime doesn't mean we can overlook the possibility that the creator might have wanted to include these types of symptoms to make the character more realistic.

I choose to believe #3 over all the others: that it is just a part of her personality, a piece of her that stays the same over all episodes. And when you watch an anime, especially one with action, you like to be reminded of why you chose to like the character in the first place, which she has this as an example. It is repeated multiple times to remind you that she is a growing character. It does not mean that she takes steps back because she moves forward first and then hits another block in the road (we all do at times). I like to say that E13 is a good show of this: in E12, she was all brave and ready to encounter anything, in E13, she returns to being shy and timid around Alto, but also expresses how she's managed to grow in words, something she couldn't express before. Ranka truly shows how characters (even real people) grow slowly, not quickly, and that is another reason why I see Sheryl as an unrealistic character, for her growth is so quick it is like whip lash.

Granted, not all people like this - that's your own opinion - but having this type of personality is a good quality about her. It allows her to be a flexible character, meaning she could be introduced to many other characters as well. Her open and endearing (possibly childish) personality had Alto hooked right from the moment they met. It also attracted Sheryl to her (after hearing her song). She has a tenancy to attract strong and idol figure people into her life, which give her reasons and desires to become a stronger character, even if only in heart or career.

I also believe that it is the one part of her past that stuck with her besides Aimo, for we see a flashback of Ranka as a child on that field with the same personality. It shows to me that Ranka wanted to forget about the incident but remain herself, and her personality now shows she's forgotten but also kept a piece of herself. And, for her at that age, the logical thing to do was to forget such a horrid incident, otherwise, she would've been scarred for life. So I consider her so-called "fail as a character" a way for her to survive. And I believe that's what Sheryl meant about Ranka at the end of the series.

Quote:

You're Welcome. (See?, I'm not totally anti-Ranka...)

Yes, I noticed.

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My original impression of Ranka was a typical loli trying to act more grown up around her older friends. Probably because of that, I still see her more or less in that light. I don't see that as a bad thing, BTW - if anything, I think that makes her series character more likable. Of course, having a younger sister that reminds me a great deal of Ranka probably doesn't help matters.

Hm, I didn't really see that. The only reason she is a loli is because of her iconic image: younger than she looks. Her personality, when truly serious, is much different than the day-to-day one we usually see. It was clearly shown in E12 and E16-17.

However, her friends aren't really that much different than her.
1- Alto is rebelling against his family to become a pilot, obvious
2- Michael is a playboy who escapes reality
3- Nanase is an obsessed fangirl
4- Luca is a geek
They're all not exactly grownups when you look at the fact they run away from their issues.
Nanase is older than her, yes; but they still act like children with each other. It seemed to me that she was more trying to impress the boys: Alto, Michael, and Ozma (Luca didn't truly count because they barely exchanged lines in the series). But she also wanted to show this to her idol: Sheryl.

Now, my impression is that most haters of Ranka just can't let go of Mao from Macross Zero. They are very similar in body structure and personality (though Mao is more confident). It doesn't help that she plays Mao's role in Birdman. But there's a fine line here: Mao was 12, Ranka is 16. It's a different character and most can't see past that because they look so similar.

The biggest beef (no joke) is that a lot of haters compare her to Minmei. Even though the debate has been on for multiple years and then cleared up by Kawamori who stated that both girls, Ranka and Sheryl, shared personalities with her, people still choose to say "she's more like Minmei."
Just one question: why?
Minmei wasn't a loli. She didn't treat Hikaru romantically until it was too late. She didn't even see reality until it was too late. She had a horrible personality off-stage (one that I compare to Chi-Chi from DBZ at times for the screaming and yammering). And she treated her fans like worshipers, putting them above everyone else.
How does Ranka possibly relate?
Yes, she's an idol. Yes, she's the Songstress of Hope. Yes, some of her outfits are similar. Yes, she got rejected. But personality-wise, Ranka did none of the things above. She noticed Alto as a romantic interest right off the bat and took him serious (hell, even fought for him), and her loss wasn't near as bad as Minmei's. She noticed that the Vajra were after her (therefore saw reality as "I'm the one they want, so I shouldn't evoke them further). She had an endearing personality. And she never put her fans first over those precious to her (one of Minmei's biggest mistakes).
Ranka kept in touch with her precious people: visiting Sheryl in the hospital, texting or calling Alto when she can (like E17), calling Nanase, and even updating her brother.
So how is she like Minmei?
The part people mostly draw on is the fact in E21, she chose to leave Frontier - because her heart was broken, or so they say - but when looking back at previous episodes as to E14, could you not see it coming? We were shown that Ranka was slowly becoming aware of her connection to the Vajra and becoming slowly aware of the threat to Frontier (herself or her singing powers), and in E20, she found proof of it. How can we truly blame her for saying "no, I don't wanna sing" if it would only make matters worse? Her choosing to leave Frontier summed up everything from E13 to E20: learning her past, being a threat to Frontier, and having her heart broken (in that order, even stated by her). The fact of the matter is, she only wanted Alto with her because she loved him and felt safe with him (not that she doesn't feel safe with Brera, but she just met him not that long ago).
But, to haters, they take this one piece and they let it just fester like a wound not realizing that they just make themselves look like horrible shippers. Had someone paid attention to detail, Yoshino and Kawamori both gave clues to why Ranka wanted to leave in E21 by the episodes beforehand.

That being said, I don't consider Ranka as a failed character. She did what she felt was right, and that's all a person (with little knowledge of the situation unlike Mishima or Grace) could really do. She gave it her all. And her final tumble in E23 to be brainwashed by Grace (who took advantage of her trauma) in E24-25 just made me adore her more. We got to see Ranka Lee rise and we got to see her fall. She, to me, was a stronger character than Sheryl (who fell in E18 without even asking "is there a cure"). She lasted up to E25 without giving up hope once, instead, choosing different paths and deciding her destiny for herself like Sheryl told her.

On a slightly off-topic subject, since I mentioned it earlier: I do not have strep throat. I went to the doctor, I just have a flu bug and it should be through by the end of the week. Those who worried about me (as a person), please do not fret. I am fine. Thank you if any of you were concerned, it shows that you are human outside of shipping.

The only thing I mentioned about you is that you're an old Macross fan, meaning you're older in age than me. I'm new and also recently a teen, so I could relate or understand Ranka better than those who have grown up and realize "why did I act that way in the first place?"

I am not too sure why my post was deleted. There was an inquiry whether Ranka's amnesia was partially to blame for her perceived childishness and/or if it affected her mental growth, so I posted information of the said disease for people to draw their own conclusions. Somehow that is considered off-topic?

I am not too sure why my post was deleted. There was an inquiry whether Ranka's amnesia was partially to blame for her perceived childishness and/or if it affected her mental growth, so I posted information of the said disease for people to draw their own conclusions. Somehow that is considered off-topic?

As mentioned, Ranshe (Ranka's Monther) is just exposed to the V-type virus. The reason that Ranshe was suffering and going to die from the V-type virus (as seen in the flashbacks that Ranka had to her mother shows her mother in great pain/suffering/whatever you call that). If she was a biological experiment, chances are Ranshe wouldn't be able to be research partners with Grace and Mao, and even if she wanted, would be underage to do so.

__________________

~I may just start making my avatar if I get out of my frantic homework cycle... Adobe Photoshop, stop trolling me! I still need to complete my sig of Ranka!~

I think everyone is dead here. It's hard to believe that it was so hot during '08. Once the series ended, this threat kinda died off. I don't know if giving a shout out will even revive it. -sighs- But I am a Ranka fan to, as you know.

And so...
We shall keep shouting...
"Raaaaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnnnkkkkaaaaaaaaaaa"
Just like what alto does~~
{Course not...)
But on a side note, I do hope kawamori makes the should-have-been proper Aruran end... Maybe if we sent a petition and perhaps when I get to 30 something then I would devote my whole fortune to Kawamori for him to make the proper ending, hahaha...

Given, this thread is already 4 years old... If only all those people knew more about Macross Frontier....
It is such a great anime, but I only knew of her last year when I saw the appearance of a certain green-haired loli in Super Robot Wars... I googled her, and fell in love with her Seikan Hikou...
Really, even when I have not learns Japanese and when there were no subs I still subtlety got the meaning of the song, I guess that is her magic...
Sheryl makes me feel odd when she is on stage, so scantily dressed.
Decidedly, Moe moe, cuteness, laces and ribbons and ruffles are clearly the way to stop a war, along with a well-timed "Kira~!"

Trust me, letting her "off the hook" took me years and a lot of thought was given. For your counter arguments one just has to go back to some of the discussions you had here with people over the years, like the long lost Dex-kun.