[Gazoo president Shigeki] Tomayama said that GR is already involved with developing a new Lexus GS F. What’s unclear is whether he’s referring to an F variant of a next-generation GS or merely an updated version of the current GS F. Considering recent rumors that the GS will not live on to see another generation, we tend to lean toward the latter.

As with the Supra, Tomayama explained, rear-end grip is an important aspect of the new GS F’s dynamics. He said that the new car needs to be lighter to achieve the playful feel GR is aiming for.

Gazoo is now involved in tuning the Lexus “F” models, specifically the next-generation GS-F.

“We are looking at what kind of target audience the car has, what tone and manner, how much understeer and oversteer balance,”Tomoyama said. “The cars have to run faster, and that tuning is already (in place). Even within Lexus, we may have different models which have different tuning.”

This story is significant in a number of ways, but the most important angle is that the GS F will be getting a next-generation at all — rumors of the mid-size sedan being cancelled have beenrampant in the past few months, and the idea of a new GS F is a welcome shift in the narrative.

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I think GS needs to be priced something like $64-78k, which in theory, would be a bargain for a car that competes with the CLS, A7 and 6 Series Gran Coupe. RC starts around $40k and like bogglo mentions above, I think we will see the next gen closely aligned to the IS redesign instead of being a mashup of IS, IS C and GS. There should be a big difference in engines, interior quality, features and technology between an entry level two-door coupe like the RC and a midsize four-door coupe.

^That pricing structure actually makes things a lot easier, IMO, than what we have now where IS bleeds into ES, which bleeds into GS. IS is pretty clearly the choice for the entry level sports coupe, ES is the logical choice for a midsize sedan, GS is a niche product before you get to the LS flagship.

I think there's also a lot of demand in other global markets for four-door coupes vs. traditional sedans, so I think Lexus could make the case with a GS globally. One of the biggest things to consider is Lexus' strategy for F cars... leaving a hole in the high performance midsize sedan arena seems weird. Going from IS F to LS F is a big jump. If someone is going to fork over the money for a car like that, I'd have to think they'd be more apt to purchase a four door coupe anyway... similar to how Audi only offers RS7 here, and not RS6. It's already an emotional purchase - I'd rather go all the way and get the sexier model.

That ES pricing is way up there and the market will not respond well to it. Think about it, the ES200 is into (top trim) Camry price territory. And there's just no way a new entry-level ES can be more expensive than a well-equipped ES350. The ES needs to be cheap, unless the IS gets a LWB.

That ES pricing is way up there and the market will not respond well to it. Think about it, the ES200 is into (top trim) Camry price territory. And there's just no way a new entry-level ES can be more expensive than a well-equipped ES350. The ES needs to be cheap, unless the IS gets a LWB.

Nobody in North America really buys a base $39k ES... most have transaction prices around $42-45k. If they do end up offering a base I4, then I think that will lower the base price a bit, but I do expect the new car to be a little more expensive as they try to elevate it a bit to compete against E Class and A6. Even then, they can still be a value leader.

Nobody in North America really buys a base $39k ES... most have transaction prices around $42-45k. If they do end up offering a base I4, then I think that will lower the base price a bit, but I do expect the new car to be a little more expensive as they try to elevate it a bit to compete against E Class and A6. Even then, they can still be a value leader.

Sorry for apparently ignoring the fact that the German competitors have elevated the price of their mid-size sedans. Over $50k for a base I4 5 Series/E-Class/A6 looks suicidal for a market that's rapidly moving away from sedans (think about it, the LS500 is "only" 40% more expensive while having V8 performance). The ES now undercuts them by over $10k while offering a V6. There's some room for the next ES to go up indeed.

Sorry for apparently ignoring the fact that the German competitors have elevated the price of their mid-size sedans. Over $50k for a base I4 5 Series/E-Class/A6 looks suicidal for a market that's rapidly moving away from sedans (think about it, the LS500 is "only" 40% more expensive while having V8 performance). The ES now undercuts them by over $10k while offering a V6. There's some room for the next ES to go up indeed.

No worries at all... that is my point with how Lexus has an opportunity to succeed with both ES and GS. E Class and 5 Series are ~$65K+ USD with decent options these days, and that is for 4cyl E300 and 530i as you note. I think A6 is a little less expensive. Does a midsize luxury sedan really need to cost that much money? We saw Lexus make a value play with the new LS and I think they have another opportunity here.

ES as the de facto midsize sedan, $42-56k with 2.0T, V6, hybrid, luxury package, F Sport package, AWD optional, will be a ton of car for most people shopping in this segment. Lexus will probably put the 12" screen in it, HUD, LSS+, beautiful interior (think something between RX and LS), Mark Levinson option, probably panoramic roof, etc. I think it will hit all of the big touch points for shoppers while being $10-20k less than a comparably equipped E/5. Theoretically:

There are really no other cars that offer that type of value here right now, aside from maybe Genesis? Depending on how Lexus handles the ES, I don't know that I'd consider the Buick LaCross to still be a competitor 100%. A6 is coming to mind as the most direct competitor. I can see a loaded V6 ES going for somewhere around $54k... which would be a ton of car for that much money compared to E300/530i, unless you just have to have RWD.

Then you can have GS as a niche product with standard turbo V6, optional multi stage hybrid, GS F, ultra dramatic styling inside and out, top end tech:

No worries at all... that is my point with how Lexus has an opportunity to succeed with both ES and GS. E Class and 5 Series are ~$65K+ USD with decent options these days, and that is for 4cyl E300 and 530i as you note. I think A6 is a little less expensive. Does a midsize luxury sedan really need to cost that much money? We saw Lexus make a value play with the new LS and I think they have another opportunity here.

ES as the de facto midsize sedan, $42-56k with 2.0T, V6, hybrid, luxury package, F Sport package, AWD optional, will be a ton of car for most people shopping in this segment. Lexus will probably put the 12" screen in it, HUD, LSS+, beautiful interior (think something between RX and LS), Mark Levinson option, probably panoramic roof, etc. I think it will hit all of the big touch points for shoppers while being $10-20k less than a comparably equipped E/5. Theoretically:

There are really no other cars that offer that type of value here right now, aside from maybe Genesis? Depending on how Lexus handles the ES, I don't know that I'd consider the Buick LaCross to still be a competitor 100%. A6 is coming to mind as the most direct competitor. I can see a loaded V6 ES going for somewhere around $54k... which would be a ton of car for that much money compared to E300/530i, unless you just have to have RWD.

Then you can have GS as a niche product with standard turbo V6, optional multi stage hybrid, GS F, ultra dramatic styling inside and out, top end tech:

As a consumer shopping for something midsize, you have the option to get a E/5 quality car for $20k less (ES) or something really niche and special for the same amount of money in GS.

That's why I said that price is so spot on. The LS might not take the crown from the S-class, but looking at the LC and LS interiors, Lexus can easily take the crown for the midsize sedan if they don't hold back. And they can throw in the Apple/Android carplay in the mix so every one can shot up. I personally would prefer a straight up screen mirroring option (that way the use is not limited to certain apps but all apps on the phone).