I might have started a simular thread before, but frankly I've started so many threads, I don't feal like going back through all of them.

George Anderson

04-17-2007, 12:38 PM

MLB only or amateur also? If its amateur I could write a book on calls I have missed alone..lol

redsupport

04-17-2007, 12:40 PM

Jorge Orta and Denkinger

Cedric

04-17-2007, 12:41 PM

The new one I can think of is Doug Eddings. I've watched baseball my whole life and I've never seen an umpire make such a weird call in such an important game.

Reds Fanatic

04-17-2007, 12:41 PM

The one I will never forget that was later reversed was a Reds-Cubs game from Wrigley back in 1984. Ron Cey hits a foul ball way foul into the seats in the left field corner. This was not in any way close to being fair. The 3rd base umpire called it a home run. At that point Mario Soto lost it he pushed the ump and later was waving a bat at someone that I believe had thrown something from the stands. Another ump reversed that call because it was so obviously foul but I remember that one because it led to a near riot and Soto was suspended for about a week.

Always Red

04-17-2007, 01:10 PM

The first one can can ever recall seeing is the one that hurt maybe the most.

Bottom of the 6th inning, 1st game of the 1970 World Series (1st one ever played on artificial turf), the Reds had two on and one out. Ty Cline bunted, Bernie Carbo came flying down the line, and he, Elrod Hendricks, and the home plate ump, Ken Burkhardt, all tangled together. Burkhart never saw the play, Hendricks tagged Carbo with his glove (and the ball was in his bare hand) and Burkhart called Carbo out.

Replay clearly showed the play to be incorrect, a young Sparky Anderson almost had a stroke on national TV, and the score remained tied at 3-3. The Orioles went on the win that game 4-3, and take the series 4-1.

I'll see if I can find a picture to post...

OesterPoster

04-17-2007, 01:10 PM

The one I will never forget that was later reversed was a Reds-Cubs game from Wrigley back in 1984. Ron Cey hits a foul ball way foul into the seats in the left field corner. This was not in any way close to being fair. The 3rd base umpire called it a home run. At that point Mario Soto lost it he pushed the ump and later was waving a bat at someone that I believe had thrown something from the stands. Another ump reversed that call because it was so obviously foul but I remember that one because it led to a near riot and Soto was suspended for about a week.

Is that the game when Zimmer was the 3rd base coach for the Cubs and he went bonkers? I remember him protesting a HR or a foul ball against the Reds, but I don't remember the circumstances.

KySteveH

04-17-2007, 01:11 PM

The new one I can think of is Doug Eddings. I've watched baseball my whole life and I've never seen an umpire make such a weird call in such an important game.
The call was Doug Eddings? That is a weird call!

George Anderson

04-17-2007, 01:14 PM

It was around 1978, the Reds had I believe Morgan on first base and a batter with a count of three balls and i think no strikes on him. Morgan stole on the next pitch but the umpire did not say if the pitch was a ball or strike. The throw nailed Morgan and he was out but if the pitch was ball four then Morgan would of advanced to second base with the batter walking. I dont remember a whole lot else other than Sparky got ejected over it.

BuckWoody

04-17-2007, 01:19 PM

The first one can can ever recall seeing is the one that hurt maybe the most.

Bottom of the 6th inning, 1st game of the 1970 World Series (1st one ever played on artificial turf), the Reds had two on and one out. Ty Cline bunted, Bernie Carbo came flying down the line, and he, Elrod Hendricks, and the home plate ump, Ken Burkhardt, all tangled together. Burkhart never saw the play, Hendricks tagged Carbo with his glove (and the ball was in his bare hand) and Burkhart called Carbo out.

Replay clearly showed the play to be incorrect, a young Sparky Anderson almost had a stroke on national TV, and the score remained tied at 3-3. The Orioles went on the win that game 4-3, and take the series 4-1.

I'll see if I can find a picture to post...
This is the one that came to mind for me. I was able to find one picture of it that shows Burkhardt horribly out of position.
http://home.nyc.rr.com/vibaseball/carbo2.gif
There is another photo that I've seen that clearly shows Hendricks tagging Carbo with his glove with the ball in plain site in his bare hand, stretched far away from the tag.

M2

04-17-2007, 01:19 PM

Jorge Orta and Denkinger

Easily the worst call in MLB history, almost called him safe before he touched the bag.

HalMorrisRules

04-17-2007, 01:21 PM

I was at the game where Pete shoved Pallone. Whether or not the call at first base was "bad" or not wasnt the issue. It was the fact that Pallone took what seemed an eternity to make the safe call. Meanwhile the entire time that he was hesitating the runner from second was coming home. Sure Esasky should have just thrown home anyway but he believed that he hadnt come off of the bag and the inning was over. I still remember the first base coach, I believe it was Bill Robinson, pointing at the corner of the bad insinuating that Esasky's foot had come off the bag. Pallone deserved to be shoved if you asked me. ;)

By the way, what people tend to not remember about that game was the fight that happened earlier in the game. Tim Teufel had homered off of Browning in the first inning I believe and the second time he came to bat, Browning just absolutely drilled him in the back. Right between the numbers. Teufel fell to the ground and Strawberry charged the mound from the dugout. Lloyd McClendon was catching that night and came out from behind the plate and tackled Straw before he got to Browning, but then a pretty formidable fight broke out. Good times.

Johnny Footstool

04-17-2007, 01:24 PM

Jorge Orta and Denkinger

Yep. Worst call with the most impact.

cumberlandreds

04-17-2007, 01:27 PM

Jorge Orta and Denkinger

By far the worst, especially in a very meaningful game.

IMO, Pallone was the worst MLB umpire I have seen in my 36 years of watching baseball. No one else is even close.

George Anderson

04-17-2007, 01:31 PM

IMO, Pallone was the worst MLB umpire I have seen in my 36 years of watching baseball. No one else is even close.

Frank Pulli was bad also. I remember he blew a outfield catch call Dave Collins made in the first game of the 79' Playoffs.

RedFanAlways1966

04-17-2007, 01:40 PM

IMO, Pallone was the worst MLB umpire I have seen in my 36 years of watching baseball. No one else is even close.

I might go with Eric Gregg. CB Bucknor is up there as well.

Another bad call was the Jeffrey Maier kid leaning over the wall at Yankee Stadium during the Baltimore vs. Yanks playoff series. Not sure of the exact definition of fan interference, but that might make for a good accompanying picture in the MLB rule book.

marcshoe

04-17-2007, 01:45 PM

Is that the game when Zimmer was the 3rd base coach for the Cubs and he went bonkers? I remember him protesting a HR or a foul ball against the Reds, but I don't remember the circumstances.

That was the one. This was also the first thing I thought of. The ball was nowhere close to being fair.

Always Red

04-17-2007, 01:51 PM

This is the one that came to mind for me. I was able to find one picture of it that shows Burkhardt horribly out of position.
http://home.nyc.rr.com/vibaseball/carbo2.gif
There is another photo that I've seen that clearly shows Hendricks tagging Carbo with his glove with the ball in plain site in his bare hand, stretched far away from the tag.

I couldn't find a better pic (though I have seen a nice one, in color, that shows Ellie Hendricks tagging Carbo with his glove), but here is a great video of it, including the highlights of the entire series. This is excellent, great to see video of Bench as a youngster, Lee May homering, Boog Powell, and of course, Brooks playing 3B.

Of interest, we get to see Big Klu coaching at 1B, and, as a bonus these are the very best Reds uniforms of all time, in my opinion.

By the way, Hendricks missed the tag, but Carbo also missed the plate. He went back, accidently, and touched the plate while arguing the call.

All three of the principles involved, Carbo, Hendricks and Burkhart, give detailed explanations on video, after the game.

Somebody around here uses the pic in question as an avatar. IIRC, it's from a magazine cover.

Jefferson24

04-17-2007, 03:32 PM

Last year in a little league game I coached. Runners on 2nd and 3rd. Kid hits one in the outfield, it drops for a hit. Runner on 3rd base comes home, clearly misses home plate but remains in the field of play in foul territory. Runner on second comes home and does touch home plate which technically speaking means he passed another runner (he should be out). I appealed the call having my catcher tag home plate. I contested that there should be two outs on the play and no runs scored. The first runner was out on the appeal (tag of home plate because he missed it) and the second runner was out because he passed another runner (runner from 3rd base was still in field of play and still able to legally tag home and be called safe). The ump said I was right to appeal but was unsure of the rules and let both runs stand with no outs recorded. We lost by 2 runs.

George Anderson

04-17-2007, 03:49 PM

Last year in a little league game I coached. Runners on 2nd and 3rd. Kid hits one in the outfield, it drops for a hit. Runner on 3rd base comes home, clearly misses home plate but remains in the field of play in foul territory. Runner on second comes home and does touch home plate which technically speaking means he passed another runner (he should be out). I appealed the call having my catcher tag home plate. I contested that there should be two outs on the play and no runs scored. The first runner was out on the appeal (tag of home plate because he missed it) and the second runner was out because he passed another runner (runner from 3rd base was still in field of play and still able to legally tag home and be called safe). The ump said I was right to appeal but was unsure of the rules and let both runs stand with no outs recorded. We lost by 2 runs.

The umpire should have ruled the runner who missed home plate out and scored the runner behind him.

Rule:
7.12
Unless two are out, the status of a following runner is not affected by a preceding runner's failure to touch or retouch a base. If, upon appeal, the preceding runner is the third out, no runners following him shall score. If such third out is the result of a force play, neither preceding nor following runners shall score.

Jefferson24

04-17-2007, 03:53 PM

Rule:
7.12

Yeah, I realized that after the game when I looked it up. But not even getting one out was a little difficult to take. I've always said Little League teaches everyone involved, kids, coaches, umps, and parents. So at least we all learned something.

DTCromer

04-17-2007, 04:09 PM

Yep. Worst call with the most impact.

You still see Denkinger-like calls every year in MLB. That was a bang-bang play and I can see why he got it wrong although he was clearly out. The only reason people say it was the WORST call ever was because it supposedly decided a World Series.

klw

04-17-2007, 04:14 PM

You still see Denkinger-like calls every year in MLB. That was a bang-bang play and I can see why he got it wrong although he was clearly out. The only reason people say it was the WORST call ever was because it supposedly decided a World Series.

I might have started a simular thread before, but frankly I've started so many threads, I don't feal like going back through all of them.

I thought that call was one of the more obvious ones. To me that became an injustice and when no one would come together to correct it, that set me off even more. The guy leaped for the ball, it was just off the top of his glove, we all saw it, the call came and it was wrong, no one intervened to correct the wrong. A double bad call to me.

klw

04-17-2007, 04:19 PM

If you can wait a couple of weeks, a book is being published on this very subject. May 1 release date.

What are they basing the "worst calls" on? Are they basing on the significance of the call? Or are they basing it just on how bad the call was? In a split-second, a play like that can be tough to call especially if the umpire thought the foot came off the bag. If you showed me that clip and I had no idea it was Game 6 of the World Series, I wouldn't think it was that bad after seeing it in fast motion which is why I don't think it was THAT bad of a bad call.

Now, the OSU/Miami call was pretty bad. The referee 5 feet away in front of the call says nothing, but the referee who only sees the defender's back way in the back of the endzone waits until the Miami players celebrate to call it. Now I think THAT was a blown call.

Redlegs

04-17-2007, 05:36 PM

Denkinger's call was the worst, especially when you consider a World Series championship was on the line.

Richie Garcia's call on the "home run" caught by a young Jeffrey Mayer comes to mind at Yankee Stadium in the playoffs against the O's. The kid leaned over the wall by a couple feet. Garcia wasn't around much longer after that.

Johnny Footstool

04-17-2007, 06:04 PM

What are they basing the "worst calls" on? Are they basing on the significance of the call? Or are they basing it just on how bad the call was?

Both. The worst judgment at the worst possible time.

I was watching the '85 WS on TV, and it was clear that Orta was out even before the replay. It was a blatantly bad call. The fact that it decided a World Series exacerbates it even more.

FlightRick

04-18-2007, 12:01 AM

You still see Denkinger-like calls every year in MLB. That was a bang-bang play and I can see why he got it wrong although he was clearly out.

I don't mean to be an alternate-shortening-of-my-given-name-which-happens-to-be-"Richard," but to call that play in the KC/STL World Series a "bang bang play" is mind-boggling to me. Doubly so when you are capable of stating that "he was clearly out."

"Bang bang plays" are the ones where you can freeze-frame it eight ways till Sunday and still not have definitive evidence one way or the other. This fails to describe the play-in-question in every measurable way.

This reminds me of many a close call I've dealt with in my decade or so of being a (rather fine) Umpire.... you get a close call, and the batting team's players/coaches/supporters will invariably offer up the chestnut that "HEY, BLUE~! A tie goes to the runner!".... to which I invariably reply that there's no such thing as a tie at the quantum level, and assert my authority and expertise by claiming to have seen -- with certainty -- a definitive outcome, rather than a "tie."

If they insist on wasting my time, I usually just casually introduce a few quantum mechanics principles or name drop a name like Copenhagen or Schroedinger, and then they shut the hell up out of sheer confusion.

I considered this one of my better characteristics as an Ump: I never wanted to throw anybody out, and came up with as many ways to avoid that outcome as possible. [In fact, I'm fairly certain I never had to eject a player/coach except in cases -- and these were rare -- where I actually screwed up a call and I knew it, and I just didn't want them reminding me of it. But if I was right (which I almost always was)? Then hey, I'll do my best to help keep you around and let you make a jackass of yourself in public.....]

Anyway, Denkinger is my vote. That's the first World Series that I actually remember, and even without the non-stop replays in later years, I knew back then that he botched that call when I was a pre-schooler. Throw in the context, and yes: it becomes even more memorably awful.....

George Anderson

04-18-2007, 12:10 AM

I don't mean to be an alternate-shortening-of-my-given-name-which-happens-to-be-"Richard," but to call that play in the KC/STL World Series a "bang bang play" is mind-boggling to me. Doubly so when you are capable of stating that "he was clearly out."

"Bang bang plays" are the ones where you can freeze-frame it eight ways till Sunday and still not have definitive evidence one way or the other. This fails to describe the play-in-question in every measurable way.

This reminds me of many a close call I've dealt with in my decade or so of being a (rather fine) Umpire.... you get a close call, and the batting team's players/coaches/supporters will invariably offer up the chestnut that "HEY, BLUE~! A tie goes to the runner!".... to which I invariably reply that there's no such thing as a tie at the quantum level, and assert my authority and expertise by claiming to have seen -- with certainty -- a definitive outcome, rather than a "tie."

If they insist on wasting my time, I usually just casually introduce a few quantum mechanics principles or name drop a name like Copenhagen or Schroedinger, and then they shut the hell up out of sheer confusion.

I considered this one of my better characteristics as an Ump: I never wanted to throw anybody out, and came up with as many ways to avoid that outcome as possible. [In fact, I'm fairly certain I never had to eject a player/coach except in cases -- and these were rare -- where I actually screwed up a call and I knew it, and I just didn't want them reminding me of it. But if I was right (which I almost always was)? Then hey, I'll do my best to help keep you around and let you make a jackass of yourself in public.....]

Anyway, Denkinger is my vote. That's the first World Series that I actually remember, and even without the non-stop replays in later years, I knew back then that he botched that call when I was a pre-schooler. Throw in the context, and yes: it becomes even more memorably awful.....

UUMMM...just what level of baseball do you umpire????:rolleyes:

FlightRick

04-18-2007, 12:24 AM

I do me some high school games, but generally speaking, anybody around here who'll pay me $40 a game, and I'll do junior high select games or high school rec leagues or even freaking girls softball. I'm a ***** that way. And like a good *****: everybody leaves me completely satisfied.

And seriously, if you think I'm having 90 second conversations about Schroedinger's Cat in the middle of a baseball game, you are comically missing the point (which is that my on-field intent is always to give TONS of lee-way to a coach/player who is demonstrably In The Wrong). Which doesn't even begin to address the issue of how you quoted a whole gigantic post of mine in order to append one sentence. Oy. Anyway: perhaps I've dropped a phyisicist's name here and there. Perhaps I hasn't. It's called "Poetic License," and frankly, I know mine is in order and that I love to wield it, expertly, when I take the time to Paint A Word Picture with one of my rare posts.

Also: my other point is that Denkinger was really, really wrong. I'll stand by that one, too.

George Anderson

04-18-2007, 12:35 AM

I do me some high school games, but generally speaking, anybody around here who'll pay me $40 a game, and I'll do junior high select games or high school rec leagues or even freaking girls softball. I'm a ***** that way. And like a good *****: everybody leaves me completely satisfied.

And seriously, if you think I'm having 90 second conversations about Schroedinger's Cat in the middle of a baseball game, you are comically missing the point (which is that my on-field intent is always to give TONS of lee-way to a coach/player who is demonstrably In The Wrong). Which doesn't even begin to address the issue of how you quoted a whole gigantic post of mine in order to append one sentence. Oy. Anyway: perhaps I've dropped a phyisicist's name here and there. Perhaps I hasn't. It's called "Poetic License," and frankly, I know mine is in order and that I love to wield it, expertly, when I take the time to Paint A Word Picture with one of my rare posts.

Also: my other point is that Denkinger was really, really wrong. I'll stand by that one, too.

www.umpireschool.com

Yachtzee

04-18-2007, 12:45 AM

www.umpireschool.com

Wasn't that a cheesy comedy from the '80s starring Jm J. Bullock and Sandahl Bergman? I think I saw that one late night on Showtime. :)

George Anderson

04-18-2007, 12:48 AM

Wasn't that a cheesy comedy from the '80s starring Jm J. Bullock and Sandahl Bergman? I think I saw that one late night on Showtime. :)

It was around 1978, the Reds had I believe Morgan on first base and a batter with a count of three balls and i think no strikes on him. Morgan stole on the next pitch but the umpire did not say if the pitch was a ball or strike. The throw nailed Morgan and he was out but if the pitch was ball four then Morgan would of advanced to second base with the batter walking. I dont remember a whole lot else other than Sparky got ejected over it.

Why is this a bad call? Unless the call was ball four, and they still called Morgan out, in which case someone surely got fired...

FlightRick

04-18-2007, 04:30 AM

Dear "George Anderson,"

I understand that you may not necessarily agree with the things I say, nor with the way I say them. I'm an abrasive jerkface that way.

But I continue to be baffled at your need to quote an entire hand-crafted and well-wordsmithed post of mine, to which you add fewer than 10 words of pointless, unilluminating drivel. Please feel free to make a freaking point one of these days, otherwise, we *BOTH* look stupid. Me for saying the jerkface thing, and you for having nothing but you unrequited Jim J. Bullock fantasies as a response.

Love,
Rick

PS: I can have 3000 (rather pointed and well-informed) words about Wendlestat's "school" on your desk by morning, if you really want it. Methinks you don't.

Highlifeman21

04-18-2007, 11:26 AM

Personally, I never thought Chris Sabo's (IIRC, I think it was Sabo) hit to end Game 2 of the WS in 1990 was a fair ball down the third base line. I thought it was just foul of the bag.

We had seats in the Green Level, 2nd row, for Game 1 and Game 2 just above Rickey Henderson and that ball looked foul to me. Not that I was rooting against the Reds, but I just thought it was a foul ball.

George Anderson

04-18-2007, 11:46 AM

Why is this a bad call? Unless the call was ball four, and they still called Morgan out, in which case someone surely got fired...

The umpire didnt say if it was a ball or strike. Sparky of course wanted it to be a ball. Its been a long time since I saw the play happen but I assume since Sparky was irate and got tossed, the pitch should have been called a ball.

George Anderson

04-18-2007, 11:54 AM

Personally, I never thought Chris Sabo's (IIRC, I think it was Sabo) hit to end Game 2 of the WS in 1990 was a fair ball down the third base line.