BoAR Grip for Modern Sporting Rifle

I am one of the owners of Khactus, LLC, the creators of BoAR Grip. I wanted to open this up to answer some FAQ and to let you ama. We are based in Gansevoort / Moreau NY. We create products focused on Liberty The BoAR grip is 100% designed and manufactured in the USA. The BoAR grip does not fit the definition of a pistol grip per the CA Definition. We have engaged legal counsel to get a formal determination however, as with other products, we are not expecting an explicit response. The grip sits in your hand in a punching motion. The grip comes with new bolt and washer (rounded head for better ergonomics). The grip is made from a single piece mold (no welded seams) out of a high ratio Nylon 6/6 blend. We will be taking orders and shipping in March. The grips are in production right now (2nd week of Feb). We will be selling to dealers and online. www.BoARgrip.com and www.facebook.com/BoARgrip

You know what would be really nice? At least one well-lit, non-grainy, appropriately-angled photograph (that doesn't move!) of the product mounted on a rifle so I can see what the hell it is you're trying to sell.

My first thought was that this is a fucking stupid alternative to a pistol grip. Then I realized that the intention was to skirt California's even more retarded laws on black rifles and it made me want one.

You are already thinking of returning it before you have one :(. I am sure we'll work with people if they absolutely hate it, customer service, liberty, family those are what we are building the product on.

Looks interesting. Has it been approved by atf or doj or anything? Not sure about other states but I think cali defined pistol grip as web of thumb below action or tigger, is there a pic of anyone holding a prototype yet?

Those are all either 3d rendering or a 3d print. The Nylon 6/6 models are in production. The trigger pull is natural if a little bit angled down. You get good contact with the pad of the finger and pull feels natural. We'll be putting up some demo videos on how it works. Take a look at our facebook posts to see the evolution of design from cobbled together video game controllers cut up to our current model which is 15 major revisions in the making by our aerospace engineer CAD designer.

Your website does a terrible job of displaying your product. I'm not even sure what your product looks like on a rifle. How about it attached to some different types of AR's? Not a figurative strobe light of closeups and Xray shots.

It does. Those are 3d renderings out of Autodesk, and I admit they look like polished glass. We have piles of 3d printed grips that we have used for testing, but if you look at some of the pictures they have lines and look worse than the glass. We got our first Nylon 6/6 produced but they are white. We will have our first large batch of shipping grips ready in the next couple of weeks and we'll do a full media spread then. Good feedback though, I hope no one had an epileptic seizure because of our GIF.

I don't think that ATF / DOJ will rule on what it is, that is usually your State Police (at least for us in NY). In CA you guys have it pretty cut and dry with the extending conspicuously below the receiver.

Amazon does a better job creating a zoomable thumbnail image of a product than you can be bothered to display ON AN ENTIRE FREAKING WEBSITE. JESUS. EFFING. CHRIST. You can't post ANY detailed still photos? What are you hiding?

You aren't kidding. We took our money and put it into molds and design and manufacturing and let the neighborhood kids and household pets do the website. In honesty, those are 3d rendered images from Autodesk and look like polished glass. We have 3d printed models and nylon 6/6 mules in white but our production models are in production. That is why everything looks like crap, you can see in some of the photos the layering lines of our 3D printed models. Don't worry we have a media package we are getting together with pictures on guns, in hands, how to operate, assassinating paper, etc.

Ahem. I'm a manufacturing engineer with extensive 3D modeling experience, primarily Solidworks and Autodesk. A quality, near-photorealistic rendering is WELL within the abilities of the software you claim to possess. And your pseudo-folksy "kids & pets" running the website excuse? BEE. ESS. Online viral MARKETING is EXACTLY what you are doing here, a fine, 21st-century solution to reaching a wide audience with limited capital. BUT... the money that is saved by avoiding 20th-century advertising IS SUPPOSED TO GO INTO A QUALITY PRESENTATION OF YOUR PRODUCT! Instead, you make excuses.

Nope.. I make jokes. I take everything to heart as constructive feedback. If you can't have fun why do it? I'd say we are doing more grass roots marketing, nothing viral, that would be monkeys and pets using the product. Yes Autodesk could show the final finish and lighting, and be really realistic, we even mocked one up in Autodesk in carbon fiber in case Dan Bilzerian wanted one. Anyway, everything we are doing is in early stages and we are iterating and improving. Keep the dodgeballs coming.

Deflect, deflect, deflect. Your presentation and attitude are not that of a salesman with a new product. Your website, attitude, and evasions don't resemble a company with a new, quality product. No, they INSTEAD resemble that of a teaser trailer for a movie you KNOW is going to be bad. Or, for a product that is always promised as coming soon, but it never quite gets here. I've seen a number of websites that resemble yours; buzz is generated, lofty goals/promises are made, the pie's in the sky's the limit -- and yet, the product never ACTUALLY hits the market. There's always "one more corner to turn", or "one more test to pass", or "one last round of funding to secure". Your deflections, folksy crap, and complete LACK of quality presentation are damaging/will damage the very buzz you are trying to generate. DON'T YOU GET THAT!?

Well I do agree with the masses here. You're website this morning confused the hell out of me. I didnt know what I was looking at or what I was looking for. Hopefully you get better pictures up. I live in CA so i appreciate these parts.

I don't see how this isn't still a pistol grip in CA. The web of the hand is still below the action of the gun. Preventing the thumb to come around is what most the monster man and other fin type grips are doing to make it not a pistol grip.

I think that touting this as a ,CA non pistol grip, is just not true. This looks to be more NY Safe act compliant.

Indeed, the FRS 15 is the stock I run on my featureless build. That said it has the back "fin" part that pulls the web of the hand just high enough that by my book its not below the action. There a a few who still argue that the FRS 15 still sits in the area of pistol grip, and with no case law yet established, they could be right.

It is designed for right handed shooters. Our lefty testers have said it is usable. We are 1) going to do some real ergonomic testing with lefties to make sure it is safe and comfortable. 2) Looking at doing a lefty designated model, if the demand is there.

I'm currently waiting on parts for my featureless build, and I would love to see more options available.

That said, while you're getting hammered for your pics, I have a different issue, namely that it does not appear that this would be legal under California law.

The California law defines a pistol grip as:

978.20 Definitions - (d) "pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon” means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp in which the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and index finger) can be placed below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing.

If you look at an Exile Hammerhead grip there is no way for the web of the hand to be below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger. Just draw a straight line horizontally from the top of the trigger, and the only place to grab it is above that line.

If you look at the BoAR grip and draw a straight line horizontally from the top of the trigger, it's pretty much designed so that part of the web of the trigger hand can be placed below the top portion of the exposed trigger, thus potentially making it an illegal pistol grip and making your rifle an assault weapon.

Note the Exile and the smiley green face because the grip is above the exposed portion of the trigger, and note the boar grip and the red frowny face because the grip is potentially below the exposed portion of the trigger.

I would make sure to have that double checked by counsel, as it would be a real bummer to have your customers become accidental felons because they relied on your assurance that it was a compliant product.

I'd like to see something more than:

*We are awaiting legal advice but we believe this grip does not fall under the definition of a pistol grip in NY (S.A.F.E. act). Please consult your local juristiction while we request judgement. Per CA Penal Code section 12276.1 this grip does not meet the criteria of "pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon."

Do you have a legal determination from a CA attorney specializing in firearms law, and/or a determination from the CA DOJ?

That would make me feel a lot more comfortable.

(Exile has a court testimony from the CA DOJ in their favor - California Department of Justice Bureau of Firearms attests that Hammerhead is not a pistol grip and therefore legal when used on a detachable magazine semiautomatic centerfire rifle with none of the features listed in CA PC 30515(a)(1)(A-F) - Sworn testimony of Frank Navarro, CA DOJ Bureau of Firearms Special Agent, in the case of People vs. Haack and Haack, California County of Tulare Superior Court, 3 November 2010. https://www.exilemachine.net/shop/exile-machine-hammerhead-ca-legal-ar-15-stock-adapter-1.html)