Mufakkir means speaker (for Islam); rather than taking on charlie's like this dangar Jalabi or whatever his name is; why is the 'speaker' not challenging Richard Dawkins? And the doubt he is impregnating in the world with his theological dribble?
If you are a speaker for islam, then speak for it on the world-stage against the true shaitaniyat!!

this farce was not conducted in my name; and the fanatics can't stop me from saying that.

Said that from day 1 - its a joke bro - we all know it, even those that make it out to be bigger than it is know it also.

KTL - why do you get so worked up? If you don't like something, why not just avoid it instead of having so many public outcries?

Just take a deep breath and change the page. Mufakkir e Islam happens to be the Shaykh of many people, including many on YaNabi. If you don't like it, then there are plenty of other threads here that you might enjoy.

This thread is about a debate that took place - of which you have no interest - and Sayyidi Mufakkir e Islam sat in the debate thinking the idiot who challenged him was a scholar and they could have a scholarly debate where these issues could be put to bed. What became obvious is that idiot turned out to be a complete jaahil devoid in any knowledge of munazara and showed nothing but khabasat.

Khabasat does not win you a debate. Sound argument is what wins the debate.

Mufakkir e Islam clearly won the debate by his very FIRST daleel which was from Quran al Hakim. The khabees on the opposition had the job to refute the daleel but he simply couldn't and wouldn't. What he did was give 2 dalail to support his own argument (not in an attempt to refute Mufakkir e Islam)
One from Tafsir and one from Shifa Shareef (none of which are Quran)

Mufakkir e Islam proved that the first daleel was the opinion of Ikrima - a known Khwarji liar. And that the second hadith quoted was weak. None proved HAQ CHAR YAR either!

The khabees simply could not engage in the debate and was only out to shout like Irfan Shah does and trying to drown out anyone else, including the poor judge who was disgraced at what he saw.

KTL, you're an intelligent chap, if you filter the junk out of the debate I am sure can appreciate it when a sound argument is made and a debate is won on ilm and tehqeeq. Thats all we wanted and in the end, thats what we got. All the opposition managed to do was hurl abuse and try to cause a massive diversion

The debate was won by both sides before a word was said with posters/videos/newspaper ads all drawn up and printed ready for distribution.

This whole episode is an absolute embarassment and no wonder the next generation will have nothing to do with Pirs and so called Shaykhs.

Munazaras by our 'buzrugs' in decades gone by ended up converting scores of people - not dividing sunnis......and over an issue where according to most people no one ends up not being a sunni regardless of the nara you choose.

This was no debate, it was ego massaging with followers/murids taking extreme positions and abusing people in a way which if repeated in their workplace would lead to the sack, let alone people having any fear of the hereafter where people will be held accountable.

I am with KTL on this. I never knew the Moulana Jalali before and he might knowledgeable in his own right and for his mureeds. But to organise a debate between him and Shah sahib was not a wise decision. I know some people who say that this Moulana Jalali is a very good in Munazara's etc and its gonna be a good one this time around with Shah sahib. But sadly, it was a farce.

To be honest, I am not interested who wins ,I wanted to watch to increase my knowledge but it was a shame for suuniyat. All we got was a shouting match from Moulana Jalali Sahib.

When the Mufakir's of this day and age are forced to lined up against these Moulana Sahib then there shoudn't be any surprise of the outcome.

Repentance is a strange mount -
it jumps towards heaven in a single moment from the lowest place

The debate was won by both sides before a word was said with posters/videos/newspaper ads all drawn up and printed ready for distribution.

This whole episode is an absolute embarassment and no wonder the next generation will have nothing to do with Pirs and so called Shaykhs.

Munazaras by our 'buzrugs' in decades gone by ended up converting scores of people - not dividing sunnis......and over an issue where according to most people no one ends up not being a sunni regardless of the nara you choose.

This was no debate, it was ego massaging with followers/murids taking extreme positions and abusing people in a way which if repeated in their workplace would lead to the sack, let alone people having any fear of the hereafter where people will be held accountable.

The sad case is that in the west especially Salafis are imposing a grip on the up and coming generations. Im 21 years old and the people in my generation that have any knowledge of Islam, a big majority of them are influenced by Salafi beliefs. Sunnis of today are incompetetant at reaching out to the youth. There is an ever growing list of children born and raised in to a Sunni household becoming Salafis. And thats because nobodies ever told them why they are Sunni and what makes their beliefs correct.

If it wasnt for English speaking Shaykhs from the Arab World that are Sunni as well as people like Mufakkir-e-Islam, Sunnis in the next generation would be extinct in the UK.

The fantatics still think that the opinion of scholars matters; and not the layman. Well, the sholars are out of touch with ground realities and think that they're achieving something; like they've jsut discovered the fountain of youth or the elixir of life.

the people that matter are me and many others like me; we are the future and you don't seem to be giving us much reason to hold on to this piss-pot landscape you've fashioned. I don't speak in a capacity other than a social commentator, you're ruining the future for your children.

KTL brother is 100% right always do munazira with some one same in knowledge etc and the question is who gave this title to mufaiker e islam to him only his mureed or any islamic institution , why all mureeds give these titles to there all pirs who is the real mufiker then , all claimed that they are mufikers , all sayyeds , all shahzadhan e gaus azam all ali rz kay lal but if they are why they want fame why they waste time doing politics .

there is no doubt he got v big knowledge but he can spend his time doing world level munaziras with christians or wahabies he can have interpreter.

qadri bhai you wrote in this thread that he himself pir g was thinking that jalali sahub was a scholer why he accept his challenge without knowing his educational qualifications because as you wrote he was thinking he was a scholer but turned up there a jahil man , yes he is jahil no doubt but how a man think someone a scholer when he is not or even a mufiker so must be you all knew what is jalalis education before the munazira .

this munazira only took place because politics behind , both parties want to let each other down. one br wrote that jalalis mureeds is he himself a pir as well, that means yeh munazira between two pirs tha and the main thing what I noticed poeple were calling pir qadir sahub Imam ahlesunnat so that means this munazira between the mureeds of Imam ahmed raza and the pir qadirs mureeds to say who is the Imam ahlesunnat now.

jub dil chay muredon ka titels burha dety hain is per bhi kuch limit honi cahiyee , titels deny hain to shahzadgan e nabi hazrat Imam hasan rz or Imam hussain rz ko doo . Imam ahlesunnat manoo un ko why all arguing with each other and everyone wants to tell the world that his pir is a mufiker , shahzada or warseen e ahlebait or Imam ahlesunnat , think what ahlebaits duty to kill yazedies not to big a haar of titels and luxury clothes and sit on big chairs and make mureeds all over .

do real sayyeds need any titels no ,the realtionship is bigger than the titels so if they from nabi saw ka ghrana this is the biggest title they got why they greedy about getting other titels the real ones never after titels after luxury life or fame.

muslims specially indopak need to come out of this all title business if they want victory.

all alims scholers pirs they all different acording to there level of education but why they all got same titels everyone is Imam ahlesunnat , they all ameers ahlesunnat , most of them shahzadgan , rahber e shariat tajuushriah etc why we dont give them different titels and one titel and why cant they all go through one exam or nominations ewards etc that will be good instead we mureedgaans giving them free titels we confusing others by doing that .

I just wish that these tigers of islam could have used all this money for better use. Looks like all the orphans were fed and clothed that day so they thought less have a useless catfight over a useless subject. If this is honour of sunnism then allah help us.bro ktl is right mine and his comments came from a different thread.

rana bhai uger sab ko libas and food mil gya to janab app blind faith waly mureed kahan say laiyen gay here in different threads you can see how much hatred the mureeds got in there hearts about other pirs etc and you saying feed the needy feed the poor then they will think better and may be they will question as well so karobar ka taqaza hay just do politics and leave the poor more poor .