(By way, with name like "pink" you should to be living in socialist paradise on playa...)

She is mine you commy pinko! YOU CANT HAVE HER! She is the Pink in my Flamingo,,, the Pleasure in my Pain! I challenge you to a DUEL!!! PEEPS at TWENTY PACES with our dildo catapults! Otherwise,,,, GET YER OWN PINK!!!!

Trishntek wrote:After making an inquiry about a theme camp RAFFLING a BM2012 TICKET to raise funds, I discover this is actually a tradition with some camps who have been doing it for years. This particular ticket being raffled was not obtained via the Directed Allotment.

How does anyone feel about raffling tickets for the purpose of fund raising?

As a relative newbie, my opinion is maybe not that relevant, but their raffle post did make me uncomfortable, especially since I loved everything else about their camp concept (assuming we're talking about the same camp/raffle/post). I was curious as to whether there was any precedent for such a raffle as well as how "kosher" it was; I'm glad I wasn't alone, and I'm glad you made the inquiry.

I guess raffling a ticket was a very different kind of thing back when supply > demand. At that time, the value of the prize was essentially the face value of the ticket; now, it's immeasurably greater. What makes me particularly uncomfortable is the idea that a bigger donation grants more chances to win. Of course, the person who donates just $10 still has a chance of winning, but it still feels a bit like a sale to the highest bidder. I think maybe I'd be okay with it if everyone got just one entry in the raffle, regardless of how much they donated. I suspect the camp could still raise just as much money, but from more people.

Again, these are the gut feelings and embryonic thoughts of a relative newbie to both the physical and electronic playas, so take them with whatever dose of salt you feel necessary.

We won one of the Earth Guardian awards last year. The prize was two gift tickets. One of the things our camp has never been able to afford is any type of solar power. Last year I noticed ticket raffles after BM sold out. One of the ideas presented was doing a raffle with these tickets to raise money for a solar system to power our lights at night.

Let me say, we haven't decided on doing this, we might just end giving them to someone who shows drive at work parties over the summer and doesn't have a ticket already.

I had this idea of a raffle before the seriousness of the ticket situation hit this year. Since then, it's a little on the back-burner and we're discussing it. I haven't looked into the ability to control the number of raffle tickets a single person can buy or if that's even possible. On one hand, it feels wrong because we'd be receiving more money than the ticket is actually worth (especially since it was a gift ticket). On the other hand, the money would go toward a system that allows our camp to be that much more fuel efficient and would reduce our footprint over a number of years (which seems fitting since they were received from Earth Guardians).

I'm curious what you all think of this.

Thanks,Papa Bear

I'm only an asshole on the Playa. Especially when you give me a megaphone.

As-long-as the tickets being raffled are not from the Directed Allotment for core members, it seems raffling tickets is common practice. NPO's raffle gifted items all the time and the raffle winner may end up paying a very small price for a ticket,,,, just the opposite of scalping.

We personally do not engage in any kind of fund raising and simply look to our members to provide goods and participation. I cannot expect everyone has the ability to do that and will not condemn something like a ticket raffle for the good of a camp.

Larry Harvey once said that community comes out of strugle. Plug and Play eliminates the strugle and turns the experince into a commodity. Community suffers. This is turning Burning Man into some Disney Land like experince where you just show up and throw money at it and expect enjoyment in return. Please put a stop to﻿ this.

I think some of the conversation over the preceding pages show it's not quite so simple as that. In a lot of cases, the PnP camps are organized that way because the people involved are struggling quite a bit with some other aspect of the burn (for example they're working on some amazing piece of art with most of their waking hours, and have a catering team/staff to help tend to keeping them fed). As I've read through a lot of posts in this discussion, and given the idea thought and talked about it with others I've come to the realization that the challenge isn't how to regulate or enforce, but how to acculturate and assimilate those who are essentially burning tourists. How do we (as a community) bring those individuals and those camps into the fold?

Aside from money, how does a person get into Harvard? Sometimes getting a person or a group "into the fold" is by setting the bar high and not making exceptions. If we decide the BM Bar is set above PnP, they will just have to get over that hurdle if they want to be folded. If they decide not to, they are excluding themselves. Sort of like the way the Republicans want to have illegal immigrants self-deport themselves.

JKhttp://www.mudskippercafe.comWhen I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle.Then I realised that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me.

“Adventure” outfits (defined as purely commercial businesses offering a full service camp experience that have no connection to our culture and community) providing “a Burning Man Experience” are not considered to be Plug and Play camps, and as of this year they will no longer be allowed at the event.

Something that makes me wonder:

It has long been a goal of the Burning Man organization to affect the default world, creating lasting impacts that change the way people live their daily lives.

I would ask the following: What impact do you really want to create?

I really don't believe that it is possible to purchase a "transformative experience," although there is a long line of hucksters ready to take large sums of money off your hands in exchange for convincing you that you went through one. I worry about that here.

Flashy lights, thumpy bass, and giant burning sculptures make for a hell of a party - don't get me wrong - I do appreciate the party. Are we really talking about something more?

When I used to teach precalculus, I would tell my class that my goal was always to give everyone an A. But I wasn't going to be a liar about it, I wasn't going to sell out. They had to really know it, they had to put in the effort, do the exercises, and understand. My role was to do everything in my power to get the process moving, and to evaluate them honestly. If we all succeeded, I could give all As.

A lot of people just wanted to get the A, not learn the math. They wanted to fake it somehow. They wanted to do some extra-credit that wasn't really working towards real mathematical skill - like writing an essay on an article on the news. Or just not do anything and tell me to grade easier. It was very hard to hold my ground - sometimes against both parents and and administration - and say no, I want you to learn a skill, or at least try, and I want to actually help you to that end.

So you get your RV package, you pay your massive camp dues, you go party, look at trippy art, take your drink/smoke/pill of choice, have a blast, and then, just like you were conditioned to say - as you are now a burner - you say that it changed your life.

People spending huge amounts of money to have their burn handed to them will hopefully come across others who don't. They may come across camps and meet people who are conscious of what they consume & careful not to waste.

Having principles is a good thing. If even one person leaves Black Rock City more aware of how they live & try to make a positive change for themselves or their community then it's working.

... and if they come back, not as a PnP but as part of the REAL TTITD, then we all win!

I'm serious about that... I *have* extended invitations to a couple PnP campers to join us - they have the desire and 'get' our theme... and would make awesome contributions to the burn. Some, I realize (maybe most) can't, or won't get beyond the disneyland-esque expectation thing, and for them I am sad... But there is that rare gem out there who would embrace TTITD as it has been and should be (in my oldschool burner vision)... and for those, I hold out hope!!

“Adventure” outfits (defined as purely commercial businesses offering a full service camp experience that have no connection to our culture and community) providing “a Burning Man Experience” are not considered to be Plug and Play camps, and as of this year they will no longer be allowed at the event.

Okay, this is the sort of stuff that makes me cynical about the llc. They put something on the blog about how they want to make "p&p camps" a bigger part of the burn, and as far as I know they get a lot of outrage from the "community" (drink). So then, they put something else on the blog, supposedly as a clarification "oh we didn't mean that sort of plug and play, that sort of plug and play isn't welcome (not even as strangers), but the other kind must be assimilated integrated."

5280MeV wrote:Something that makes me wonder:

It has long been a goal of the Burning Man organization to affect the default world, creating lasting impacts that change the way people live their daily lives.

Yeah, I don't get it either.I think I'll go after My Last Sigh again.

Luis Bunuel wrote:I'm often asked whatever happened to surrealism in the end. It's a tough question, but sometimes I say that the movement was successful in its details and a failure in its essentials. Breton, Eluard, and Aragon are among the best French writers in this century; their books have prominent positions on all library shelves. The work of Ernst, Magritte, Dali is famous, high-priced, and hangs prominently in museums. There's no doubt that surrealism was a cultureal and artistic success; but these were precisely the areas of least importance to most surrealists. Their aim was not to establish a glorious place for themselves in the annals of art and literature, but to change the world, to transform life itself. That was our essential purpose, but one good look around is evidence enough of our failure.Needless to say, any other outcome was impossible. Today, we see the place of surrealism in the world as infinitesimal. Like the earth itself, devoured by monumental dreams, we were nothing--just a small group of insolent intellectuals who argued interminably in cafes and published a journal; a handful of idealists, easily divided where action was concerned.

It's when the llc talks about the burn changing the lives of participants that they are least attractive. Really, this is when the sacred clowns of the playa should be lampooning them with the harpoons of their wits.

The Lady with a Lamprey

"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

Hmmm... So they come it w their equipment, set up & bring their customers in to party. Have I got this right so far? Are they the ones that are buying up blocks of tkts so other Burners are left w/o? Am I still on track?

bkennedy450 wrote:hi, interested, but want some more info. first timer, old timer, shy, but interested in some new experiences.suggestions?

This might not be the best place to find a "plug and play" camp, as we don't seem to like them and aren't about to give our contact info, if we have it.I say, go with Orphan 2 camp this year. No commitment, someone else is bringing shade, you can be as much social or as much a free agent as you want.

The Lady with a Lamprey

"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

of course, since these folks, apparently, with playaskool and zoo and others.. are a "valuable contributor to our community" ( http://blog.burningman.com/2012/04/tenp ... ification/ ), they can be douchebag profiteers all they want!! woo hoo for the whole ends justify the means thing!!!

I like Evil Pippi and everybody in the Media department, but the fact that there's a Media department at all says something about where Burning Man has placed its chips the last fifteen years. You sleep with dogs, and wonder why you wake up with fleas? Really?

judging by some interview stuff about playaskool and some googling and facebooking ..it looks like those "Best Art Cars On the Playa" that you can get access to by forking over wads of cash are some of these ones... at least it seems they were some of the ones in 2011..

sure!! art made it to the playa... it might even be neat.. but it appears that selling spots in a camp to clients who dont want to lift a finger and who didnt lift a finger to build when it came to the art is how it ended up getting to burning man.

maybe! some folks will want to avoid some of these pay to play creations..... if some of the stories ive seen about at least one of the vehicles are true, .. the owners probably do all the work on their end to help folks avoid them..... ..maybe folks want to interact with them to "acculturate" towards some other values!.. maybe its too late for that

s0oo.. burning man ends up with art... at the cost of high dollar pay to play camps that allow their clients to not lift a finger and seeing as its not an 'adventure outfit' and that these camps are a "valuable contributor to our community" ( http://blog.burningman.com/2012/04/tenp ... ification/ ) they get to stay ............but im not sure if the ends justify the means

if pepsi-co.. or bank of america, or Holiday Inn and Hilton were setting up a similar thing, ..and not playaskool... using funding from customers to do big awesome corporate logo-free art and mutant vehicles for their clients use ..i dont think many would want that.. if they knew of it at least.. to me i dont really see much difference than what is going on now with camps/art/vehicles in all the various forms it happens in

does the fact that ZOO camp being even tangentially, or maybe directly involved in the whole KRUG thing sour the camps they seem to be compatriots with in 2012.. including PlayaSkool and others?

Does liking the art, or entertainment these operations provide really make how theyve come to provide it OK ?!

is having that art sold as one of the attractions a camp is offering as a package deal what people really want? ....is outsourcing the creation of art as an attraction to gain clients to whomever will take the money to build it, whether they are burners or not... really what people want?

.........is playa art and entertainment innately good? absolving the do-ers of all nasty stink that might have caused it to come about?

yep.

these are the type of questions the folks round these parts are gonna have to deal with in the coming years.. ..and are already considering..