Are efficient LED bulbs worth the price? - Home Energy Pros2017-08-18T05:28:59Zhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/forum/topics/are-efficient-led-bulbs-worth-the-price?commentId=6069565%3AComment%3A99192&xg_source=activity&feed=yes&xn_auth=noPCMag's opinion http://www.pc…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2013-01-07:6069565:Comment:1016962013-01-07T14:55:55.089ZTom DelContehttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/tomdelconte
<p>PCMag's opinion <a href="http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2403369,00.asp" target="_blank">http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2403369,00.asp</a></p>
<p>PCMag's opinion <a href="http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2403369,00.asp" target="_blank">http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2403369,00.asp</a></p> Thanks Bob! My test of the 6…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2013-01-04:6069565:Comment:1018432013-01-04T13:52:03.209ZTom DelContehttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/tomdelconte
<p>Thanks Bob! My test of the 6 L-Prize Philips bulbs continues. Four are in high hat fixtures subject to 2nd floor vibration and foot pounding, which have been extended using 3 inch extenders, made only in china. The other two are mounted in torchieres which see daily abuse: humans turn them off a lot, and dogs knock them over to the ground. This is a real world ruggedness test.</p>
<p>Thanks Bob! My test of the 6 L-Prize Philips bulbs continues. Four are in high hat fixtures subject to 2nd floor vibration and foot pounding, which have been extended using 3 inch extenders, made only in china. The other two are mounted in torchieres which see daily abuse: humans turn them off a lot, and dogs knock them over to the ground. This is a real world ruggedness test.</p> The PAR/Reflector lamps is on…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2012-12-29:6069565:Comment:1012642012-12-29T14:50:20.125ZBob Blanchettehttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/BobBlanchette
<p>The PAR/Reflector lamps is one area that LED is awesome at because it's "native" to an LED's design. LED's WANT to send light in one direction, other technologies have to use reflectors to direct the "native" omnidirectional light.</p>
<p>I agree a tube retrofit of LED is a bad idea. For LED to go commercial, they would need their own fixture instead of tube retrofits. Make it fit a standard 2'x4' ceiling tile space or hang direct from building structure. For new construction maybe go with…</p>
<p>The PAR/Reflector lamps is one area that LED is awesome at because it's "native" to an LED's design. LED's WANT to send light in one direction, other technologies have to use reflectors to direct the "native" omnidirectional light.</p>
<p>I agree a tube retrofit of LED is a bad idea. For LED to go commercial, they would need their own fixture instead of tube retrofits. Make it fit a standard 2'x4' ceiling tile space or hang direct from building structure. For new construction maybe go with something different entirely.. Getting the lumen per dollar down to a level competitive with T8 technology is going to take awhile. For LED to have more than 20% of the total market, cost effective commercial solutions need to happen.</p>
<p>Then there is outdoor lighting which is dominated by arc lamps, extremely long life and high lumen per watt. CRI is sacrificed to get these ratings. Where is LED to be found? The only thing I've seen is the LED billboards, which I think are awesome BTW...</p> The 60hz pulsing comes from d…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2012-12-29:6069565:Comment:1011722012-12-29T14:39:33.043ZBob Blanchettehttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/BobBlanchette
<p>The 60hz pulsing comes from days of the T12 lamps with magnetic ballasts. T12's are old technology, they did have their issues. Poor CRI and 60hz flicker are 2 of them. Oddly the same people that had issues with Florescent 60hz flicker never had problems watching it for hours on their 60hz TV's and computer monitors (think old CRT style screens).</p>
<p>Although there are still many in service (because they last forever), companies are changing over to electronic ballasts as the T12's die…</p>
<p>The 60hz pulsing comes from days of the T12 lamps with magnetic ballasts. T12's are old technology, they did have their issues. Poor CRI and 60hz flicker are 2 of them. Oddly the same people that had issues with Florescent 60hz flicker never had problems watching it for hours on their 60hz TV's and computer monitors (think old CRT style screens).</p>
<p>Although there are still many in service (because they last forever), companies are changing over to electronic ballasts as the T12's die out. I don't think they even make fixtures that use these anymore, even the cheap fixtures have gone to electronics ballasts. LED and CFL also have the 60hz pulsing issues if they use a cheap driver circuit.</p> Tom
Investigate humancentric…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2012-12-29:6069565:Comment:1012622012-12-29T14:31:25.845ZDennis McCarthyhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/DennisMcCarthy
<p>Tom</p>
<p>Investigate humancentric lighting benefits to put the whole scope related to effects of</p>
<p> fluorescent lighting in perspective..For the points that you alluded to on</p>
<p> how &amp; why related to the spectral qualities of SSL which can dramatically aid in</p>
<p> the functionality of lighting in a variety of settings : schools, hospitals,prisons &amp;</p>
<p> offices.</p>
<p></p>
<p>Bad lighting does not cause autism but it does exsarcerbate problems related</p>
<p> to…</p>
<p>Tom</p>
<p>Investigate humancentric lighting benefits to put the whole scope related to effects of</p>
<p> fluorescent lighting in perspective..For the points that you alluded to on</p>
<p> how &amp; why related to the spectral qualities of SSL which can dramatically aid in</p>
<p> the functionality of lighting in a variety of settings : schools, hospitals,prisons &amp;</p>
<p> offices.</p>
<p></p>
<p>Bad lighting does not cause autism but it does exsarcerbate problems related</p>
<p> to melatonin , endorphine and other body chemistry elements of health</p> I agree with most of what Bob…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2012-12-29:6069565:Comment:1013222012-12-29T14:19:34.602ZTom DelContehttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/tomdelconte
<p>I agree with most of what Bob says here, except he does not address the mental health issue of fluorescents possibly causing 60 cps pulsing induced mental illness or autism: <a href="http://www.archdaily.com/177293/designing-for-autism-lighting/" target="_blank">Lighting and autism</a> . Please address that.</p>
<p>I agree with most of what Bob says here, except he does not address the mental health issue of fluorescents possibly causing 60 cps pulsing induced mental illness or autism: <a href="http://www.archdaily.com/177293/designing-for-autism-lighting/" target="_blank">Lighting and autism</a> . Please address that.</p> Bob-
I feel you're putting…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2012-12-29:6069565:Comment:1011702012-12-29T14:12:23.291ZDennis McCarthyhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/DennisMcCarthy
<p>Bob-</p>
<p></p>
<p> I feel you're putting me in to the role of teacher- I can live with that if- in</p>
<p>doing so I can inform you, 'the class" and refine my message delivery</p>
<p>- I live so deep in the SSL realm its frustrating to come back to the</p>
<p>reality of my beloved SSL is @ 2% of use, while incumbant technology</p>
<p>is entrenched and the only known choices to the vast majority of my fellow citizens-</p>
<p> </p>
<p>1- Big boxes, nation wide carry 4-8 standard form factor…</p>
<p>Bob-</p>
<p></p>
<p> I feel you're putting me in to the role of teacher- I can live with that if- in</p>
<p>doing so I can inform you, 'the class" and refine my message delivery</p>
<p>- I live so deep in the SSL realm its frustrating to come back to the</p>
<p>reality of my beloved SSL is @ 2% of use, while incumbant technology</p>
<p>is entrenched and the only known choices to the vast majority of my fellow citizens-</p>
<p> </p>
<p>1- Big boxes, nation wide carry 4-8 standard form factor examples of LED retrofit lights</p>
<p> Par 20s,30+38s are ALL commonly found at every HD, LOWEs etc not just A-19s</p>
<p>2 YOU DON"T WANT LED TUBE LIGHTs - people ought to avoid these like STDs</p>
<p> -- their inherent bad architecture is bad to begin with - thermal dynamics</p>
<p> &amp; heat disipation coupled w/ poor drivers + electrlytic capacitors yield awful results.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>3 For one &amp; all Do your due diligence to select your next LED purchase wisely- Ok</p>
<p> except for $3 flashlights / nitelites-I don't concern myself with 'em</p>
<p> - but then try and find a incandescent flashlight anyway in '13</p>
<p>4 Look at LED trade magazines, ie LEDs magazine, or LightTimes online or a site</p>
<p> like Philips or Juno lighting- they have information,most pertains to hyping their wares - </p>
<p> but beyond that both of those have LED acumen quizzes- or educational facets.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>5 - For those who've taken some of these steps &amp; would like to gain further knowledge</p>
<p> an individual can research any of over 40 subset topics about LED/ SSL product</p>
<p> composition, terms, product trends and more - its a fascinating topic.</p> The point is the average cons…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2012-12-29:6069565:Comment:1011682012-12-29T13:33:18.611ZBob Blanchettehttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/BobBlanchette
<p>The point is the average consumer won't see any payback using LED's over CFL's, A $15 single LED bulb is a tough sell when you can buy a 6 pack of CFL for the same price. Both get about the same lumen per watt. In order for LED to get widespread acceptance the "cool factor" needs to be sold to consumers. Making A19 replacements is NOT how LED is going to succeed, it's going to be years before they can compete with CFL's on payback time alone.</p>
<p>New LED exclusive fixtures not limited to…</p>
<p>The point is the average consumer won't see any payback using LED's over CFL's, A $15 single LED bulb is a tough sell when you can buy a 6 pack of CFL for the same price. Both get about the same lumen per watt. In order for LED to get widespread acceptance the "cool factor" needs to be sold to consumers. Making A19 replacements is NOT how LED is going to succeed, it's going to be years before they can compete with CFL's on payback time alone.</p>
<p>New LED exclusive fixtures not limited to A19 shaped lamps is what will cause LED fixtures to take off. The need to be sold at the big box stores to get exposure to consumers. Even selling them at the online giants like Amazon would help get things moving. The 2900 to 5000K LED will be costly, only geeks will be buying it. Older people are slow to change their ways, most still use the incandescent.</p>
<p>What I'd really like to see is when LED finally can compete with the 4' T8 lamps normally used in commercial applications. MUCH more of the total energy used for lighting is geared towards commercial, seen how many lights are at Walmart compared to a typical residence? <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.lowes.com/pd_133047-371-89069_4294801207+4294794440+4294796183__?masthead=true&amp;selectedLocalStoreBeanArray=[com.lowes.commerce.storelocator.beans.LocatorStoreBean%402dea2dea%2C+com.lowes.commerce.storelocator.beans.LocatorStoreBean%402ee82ee8%2C+com.lowes.commerce.storelocator.beans.LocatorStoreBean%40702c702c%2C+com.lowes.commerce.storelocator.beans.LocatorStoreBean%40712a712a%2C+com.lowes.commerce.storelocator.beans.LocatorStoreBean%4072287228]&amp;identifier=Sunshine&amp;langId=-1&amp;Ntt=flourescent&amp;URL=TopCategoriesDisplayView&amp;N=4294801207+4294794440+4294796183&amp;firstReferURL=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lowes.com%2Fpd_133047-371-89069_4294801207%2B4294794440%2B4294796183__%3FcatalogId%3D10051%26productId%3D3063317%26UserSearch%3Dflourescent%26Ntt%3Dflourescent%26N%3D4294801207%2B4294794440%2B4294796183%26identifier%3DSunshine%26langId%3D-1%26storeId%3D10151%26rpp%3D24%26searchQueryType%3D1&amp;zipCode=73160&amp;mastheadURL=TopCategoriesDisplayView&amp;UserSearch=flourescent&amp;findStoreErrorURL=StoreLocatorDisplayView&amp;productId=3063317&amp;searchQueryType=1&amp;catalogId=10051&amp;rpp=24&amp;storeId=10151" target="_blank">$8 gets you 5,600 lumen for 64 watts.</a> Any ideas of when LED will finally become competitive for commercial lighting?</p>
<p>I'm a BIG fan of 4' T8 lighting, even for residential use. Initial fixture and lamp costs are reasonable, replacement lamps are cheap when they finally do fail after what seems like forever. The 4' T8's really DO get close to their rated life unlike the CFL and LED A19 retrofit lamps. No waiting for the light to come to full brightness. Lamps with high CRI ratings and lumen outputs are reasonable cost. Changing color temperature is a matter of buying $8 worth of lamps. I have them in my Bathrooms, Kitchen, Laundry Room, and Garage.</p>
<p>Speaking of CRI why do we rarely see it mentioned on LED or CFL packaging? The 4' T8's normally have it printed on the box....</p> BOB
NO you're wrong ,POINT…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2012-12-29:6069565:Comment:1013192012-12-29T05:02:22.807ZDennis McCarthyhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/DennisMcCarthy
<p>BOB</p>
<p></p>
<p> NO you're wrong ,POINT BLANK its an incorrect statement- yes they are better at cold weather</p>
<p>performance - ya got that part right BUT stating the ONLY ADVANTAGE is long life, is an aspect</p>
<p>but as I stated ITS a DAILY operational AGGREGATE cost. getting on a ladder THATs one cost +</p>
<p>definitely it impacts a small biz,or a home owners time, there are insurance liability issues - If you</p>
<p>or an employee are NOT getting on a ladder --- that impacts…</p>
<p>BOB</p>
<p></p>
<p> NO you're wrong ,POINT BLANK its an incorrect statement- yes they are better at cold weather</p>
<p>performance - ya got that part right BUT stating the ONLY ADVANTAGE is long life, is an aspect</p>
<p>but as I stated ITS a DAILY operational AGGREGATE cost. getting on a ladder THATs one cost +</p>
<p>definitely it impacts a small biz,or a home owners time, there are insurance liability issues - If you</p>
<p>or an employee are NOT getting on a ladder --- that impacts liability costs factored in</p>
<p>to a concern/ homeowners insurance premiums- You save on insurance cost - no mention of that!!</p>
<p></p>
<p> You don't get the implications with regard to LED lighting coupled w/ intelligent lighting controls.</p>
<p>This one dynamic impacts the country's economy positively regarding Kws not bought and wasted</p>
<p> &amp; then there are the implications of CO2 generation or the seasonal strain of reduced use during</p>
<p>extended summer heat waves- CFL use is meh but LEDs summer use why A/Cs don't have to work so hard -CFLs don't work well (if at all) with dimmers or two level settings.</p>
<p>These are the NEW realities of lighting use ( like California's new (#24) mandate) lights are by nature going to cut off if the room is vacant- This paradigm isn't good for CFLs but its not an operational negative for LED lighting- in fact LEDs like being switch on &amp; off.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>And then there is the meeting of the needs for a population with aging eyes, the stupid, outdated Cfls</p>
<p>you seem to favor can't possible be a warm 2900K color then adjust up to a CCT in the 5000K color</p>
<p>temp as a built in function that would help these aging eyes its not something cfl's can do- That</p>
<p>feature is going to be a</p>
<p>fairly common feature of LED lights in the shelfs in two years.</p>
<p> . Can CFLs do this kind of thing - hell no- is it a financial consideration a little but its</p>
<p>a quality of life issue- that's an advantage of SSL over CFL - you can not just dismiss it, its factual.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>What about the costs involved in recycling CFLs vs what happens to careless disposal of these Hg</p>
<p>laden antiques.Thats a case of even more impact vs a LED product that will be totally reclaimed in</p>
<p>that 15 yr life span ( best case scenerio) how many CFLs would be used in that time frame-</p>
<p>granted CFLs are a dying product that won't be around in 10 yrs time but its part of the economic</p>
<p>considerations which your position does not support- I could state several more salient factors that</p>
<p>effectively refute your contentions,</p>
<p>but I have a thing about wasting electrons - I made my point several hundred words back.</p>
<p> </p>
<p> YOUR CONTENTION THAT those 2 points constitute the ONLY economic benefits by using the</p>
<p>phrase--</p>
<p>"the only economic advantage" is inacurate - I guess we can chalk this up to you not having the same</p>
<p>facts that I'm using ( mine were based on realities - they can be proven using science they could stand up</p>
<p>to repetitive unbiased testing ( and in fact HAVE been -- refer to the DOE's SSL sites)- logic</p>
<p>and common sense ! </p>
<p> </p> When LED's are compared to CF…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2012-12-29:6069565:Comment:1013172012-12-29T03:28:51.303ZBob Blanchettehttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/BobBlanchette
<p>When LED's are compared to CFL the only economic advantage they have is longer life expectancy and better cold weather performance.</p>
<p>When LED's are compared to CFL the only economic advantage they have is longer life expectancy and better cold weather performance.</p>