Christian Horner: “So many times the drivers talk about what they want from the car, rather than trying to understand the car. Sebastian is able to adjust, to understand what the car needs to go quick.”

Happy birthday!

On this day in F1

Mika Hakkinen started his final F1 race on this day in 2001 at Suzuka. At the time it was billed as the beginning of a sabbatical, but there was little surprise the following year when he confirmed he wasn’t returning.

I think it is ridiculous to support Massa. He has that typical Brazilian racing driver attitude, he is a servant in times of need and the king when no ones looking. He goes on defensive and plays victim when he is the only one responsible for his actions and his future in F1. It’s the time to stop feeling sorry for Massa. Massa has had a much better career than everyone expected when he got into F1, and the reason why is because Ferrari gave him everything a decent team would, Ferrari even did the decent thing of supporting him after his unfortunate accident in Hungary, those Italian villains. When Massa stops being so egotistic, hypocrite and paranoid just like Piquet or Senna or Fittipaldi were at their worst Massa will earn my praise. I think Murray Walker describes this above in a much more gracious and credible way but this is how I’ve always felt about certain drivers, on the plus side these drivers I have mentioned have always let their true colours come out from time to time and that’s a good thing in my opinion.

It’s nice to see but for me it’s too little too late. The only reason he found some backbone is because he’s out the door at the end of the season. I really believe he would have happily moved over if he had even a 1% chance of driving a Ferrari next year. I just wish he would have been stronger on a few of the previous occasions. But fully agree nice to see.

Good thing he stood up for himself after a couple of years, maybe he needed that to feel more comfortable with himself again (I know I would). I like him and I wish he could be at the front more often and maybe even continue his career with some more success again next year. It’s just interesting he doesn’t like instructions when usually he takes a lot of them all the time about how to drive his car and not fighting over a position usually is the faster solution for both drivers. Still, nice he wanted to sort it out on track and Alonso seemed not to be too troubled with it either. Also he didn’t seem as downbeat as Jorge Lorenzo after the MotoGP race when he realized his title chance is almost gone.

Here is what could have happened: (1) Massa ignores team orders at the German GP in 2010; (2) he wins the German GP; (3) he quits Ferrari at the end of the year with a strong reputation as a race winner and potential team leader; (4) he is signed by Lotus Renault in preference to Petrov; (5) when Kubica is injured, he becomes de facto team leader; (6) with his confidence higher than ever, he puts in strong performances over the next three seasons; (7) in 2013, Ferrari comes crawling back to sign him as a replacement for whatever demotivated Alonso-stooge they happen to have originally replaced him with.

I wish journalists would stop asking alonso if he thinks his chances for the championship are over

@scuderia29
Not only that, they should also stop asking EVERY single driver ten times “what you think about the circuit? what you think about the fans? what can you do from (insert grid position) tomorrow?” I mean I know they have to make at least an hour long show but just try to be a little more interesting with your questions, they like to take the easy route and ask the same thing over and over.

For example how many times did poor Hulkenberg have to answer the same question (about his future) during the weekend? If it’s annoying for me imagine what it’s like for him!

@maarten-f1 I agree that the questions are boring, but they are PR machines and if it were back in the day when they could really say what was on their mind, they probably would. I mean look what you have to do if you say the wrong thing. You have to apologize on your twitter account and then do so more in the press just to get things back on an even keel.

I guess this is a case of better late than never @fer-no65. On the other hand, as the WDC is already a foregone conclusion, its now more likely that Ferrari will let him get away with it, than it would be when Alonso was still in with a realistic chance of winning the title.

@fer-no65 Felipe knows he’s driving for a team and puts its interest above his own – not like Alonso who’s always complaining, and then says he isn’t. Had Massa reacted this way in the past he would have been kicked out of Ferrari – better be 2nd with Ferrari than drive for a midfield team (however, had he done so in 2010, his reputation might have allowed him to sign with a top team). Now his actions won’t have consequences on next season and, even more, on his team mate. Massa isn’t stupid and would have let Alons past had it been for the championship, like it supposedly was in 2010. But Alonso himself has surrendered now, and for Ferrari as a team to finish 4th/5th is the same whether Massa leads Alonso or not.

Here is what could have happened: (1) Massa ignores team orders at the German GP in 2010; (2) he wins the German GP; (3) he quits Ferrari at the end of the year with a strong reputation as a race winner and potential team leader; (4) he is signed by Lotus Renault in preference to Petrov; (5) when Kubica is injured, he becomes de facto team leader; (6) with his confidence higher than ever, he puts in strong performances over the next three seasons; (7) in 2013, Ferrari comes crawling back to sign him as a replacement for whatever demotivated Alonso-stooge they happen to have originally replaced him with.

I know it could be a bit too imaginative here, but it shows just what could have happened for him.

I certainly am not going to do that. I was gutted with 2010 and glad that Bottas ignored TO earlier in the year. And off course that Vettel ignored them too.

It was disappointing to see TO being handed to Rosberg in Malaysia and 2 times to RoGro as well. I would hope that drivers in general ignore TO, and the likes of Vettel and Massa (and Webber in the past) doing so, only helps put a brake on teams for using them.

I personally am not a fan of team orders but have always understood them when used at an appropriate time. For me, determining when they are appropriate is the tricky part. The orders SV and NR got in the first race confused me because it was the first race with everything yet to play for. I rationalized those orders as down to the teams being unsure of the tires and their durability. So I thought both drivers should have obeyed their orders and even though many around here seem to think it is admirable not to, to me it feels like refusing to do something the boss has asked you to do. There are sponsors to think about too.
In my perfect F1 world team orders should not be needed as the only time they should even be a possibility is when the math simply favors one driver over another as the season winds down, which is ironically at a time when the one driver with lesser points should not even have to have it pointed out to him that he should not hinder the higher pointed driver.
So with FM, and given the one-rooster philosophy at Ferrari, and given the time in the season and the points situation I think it was FM’s job to let FA go, and I think the only reason the team is downplaying it is because they know FA’s chances vs SV are slim to none anyway.
I think FM has always known of Ferrari’s way and shouldn’t have been surprised mid-2010…they didn’t hire FA for FM to win the WDC. His defiance of the order yesterday was nothing more than a message he was sending to the other teams, yet I expect that all other teams would also order him aside if/when the math dictates it, so he might be sending the wrong message…whoever hires me will find me uncooperative even if I am mathematically out of it.

âSo many times the drivers talk about what they want from the car, rather than trying to understand the car. Sebastian is able to adjust, to understand what the car needs to go quick.â

Someone point Mr.Horner to Vettel’s struggles at the beginning of last year, when he didn’t really adjust to the loss of the EBD until Red Bull mananged to reclaim the lost downforce. I’m pretty sure that was a case of him telling the team what he wants from the car, rather than him adjusting.

If it wasn’t for Valencia he would still be way ahead of Webber. He wasn’t slower on pace either, but for two grand prix. He was faster in 5 out of the fist 6 grand prix of 2012, when they were ‘adjusting’ to the new rules. He had some bad luck with Karthikeyan in Malaysia.

People tend to act like he was beaten and slashed by Webber, while in reality they were evenly matched, but Vettel had all the bad luck, from wich Webber benefited. In the first 6 races of the season, Webber was only able to beat (and come close to) Vettel in China, all be it he was more evenly matched in qualifying.

I didn’t mention Webber in my post. My point was that Horner is exaggerating or that his comments are unfair towards the other drivers because at the beginning of 2012 Vettel displayed the same type of attitude his boss is now accusing the others of having.

@andrewf1 Vettel initially had to adjust, and he did that just fine, always in the title hunt from race 1, winning more races than anyone else, and the title. And he was never critical of how bad, difficult or lackluster the car was, even when things didn’t go his way.

He reverted to pre-season exhausts in China because he didn’t like the way the car handled with the new ones. That’s perfectly fine to do and I didn’t say he had criticized the team, but that’s not the brilliant adjusting Horner is pointing at, especially when he phrases it as if his driver would be above others.

It’s like saying Vettel would turn that McLaren into a championship contender. Sure drivers do provide inputs to improve the car but they rely more on engineers and team’s ability to make things happen than the other way around.

I dont understand why there is so much applause for Massa disobeying team orders. I think its disrespectful and extremely umprofessional for a driver to disobey a direct team order, regardless of who he is, or where he is in on the track. Massa himself has benefited from team orders in the past. People globally pan footballers for disobeying their coach’s instructions as being unprofessional. Since when did F1 drivers elevate themselves above all that?

Massa has played the “victim” role for the last 4 years, but its not sticking. He isnt as good, period. If he was as good, but being forced to play second fiddle, he would be closer to 3rd in the championship as opposed to 10th. If he was so victimized, why they hell did he bloody stay on for so long? Do you really think that Massa would have gone on to challenge Vettel in 10 and 12 if he was allowed to win at Hockenheim in 2010? If you do, please tell me what you’re smoking, because I sure would love a hit.

Why would he have to obey to team orders at this stage? Alonso wasn’t going to move forwards as he would still be held up and has no chance of beating Vettel in the championship. Massa has to go anyway, so why give up his own race?

Massa has played the âvictimâ role for the last 4 years, but its not sticking

IÂ´m sorry I disagree, until now Massa had always show a lot of respect and self sacrifice for Ferrari, he has never complained about it (and we know there are drivers that are expert in playing the victim part).

Massa is leaving Ferrari, and Alonso is not gonna win the championship this year, so why would team orders be necesSary at this point? As Massa himself said, he is driving for himself and his future in F1!

Alonso is not gonna win the championship this year, so why would team orders be necessary

Well, we can say he’s not going to win it now, but the situation was slightly different at the beginning of the race. Alonso was still in the contention, and there were some rumors about Vettel’s KERS problems (maybe even a possibility of DNF). This race was still important and working against your teammate championship chances wasn’t the smartest thing to do.

There is a time for disobeying team orders, and that’s usually when you’re both fighting for the title. Over the years Massa had plenty of opportunities to show a real character in Ferrari and stand up against unfair team orders. He didn’t do that and now it just looks like he rebels out of spite.

@maroonjack did you really believe before yesterday race that Alonso/Ferrar had a chance at WDC? Vettel/ RBR and Lotus and Mercedes will need a massive meltdown in order for Alonso to win all the remaining races so he could have more points tan Vettel.

@tifoso1989 If Massa finish ahead of Alonso it would still be point s for Ferrari.

@caci99 Massa race everybody, and if Massa was slow Alonso didnÂ´t need orders to get pass him

as Alonso actually did. But the point is that nevertheless he slowed him down, there is no denying that a slow driver slows down the other behind and since at this point of championship they are both racing for the team to secure the second position in WCC, what was Massa doing? I strongly believe that what he did was just wrong and made a joke of himself

@caci99 so we watch a sport to see good fights on track, and so IÂ´m happy and glad that Massa ignored the teams orders, if Alonso wants to pass his teammate is time he start doing it on his own. And just to be clear will think the same is this were any other driver of any other team.

@celeste you keep saying as if Alonso didn’t pass him, when he actually did. There is time when you fight for yourself and time when you fight for the team. Massa choose the wrong time damaging his team and doing no favor to himself because of his pathetic performance. And when you “drive for yourself” remember that you are using team equipment and resources, not yours.

@celeste you make it sound like if it is the others fault for this working relationship has come to an end. You make it as if you have the right on your side, but … it is not the case. The long relationship between Ferrari and Massa was not a forced one, Massa choose for himself to stay with them. Now he is acting like a spoiled child who didn’t get his preferred present and smashes the other one brought to him. Ferrari side has the same right to slam the door as Massa leaves, but if they do, I am sure you will come hammering them down.

@celeste
As a spectator it doesn’t matter what I believe, but for a competitor it’s not over till it’s over. As long as there is a mathematical chance to grab the championship, you give it all you’ve got. That’s the attitude of the winners. Yes, Alonso’s chances were slim, but they were at least there, which cannot be said about Massa’s chances.

If he thinks that he’s just “driving for himself” and that this kind of behavior is attractive for other team bosses, then I think he’s wrong. He’s still part of Ferrari, a team that was nursing him and paying him far too long. As much as I like drivers showing a bit of character, I don’t think that’s what we’re seeing here. Right now Massa reminds me Nelsinho Piquet in that he was a yes-man as long as he had a drive. Now as he loses his seat, he gets on a faux moral high-horse. Of course Massa is much better and more successful driver, but the underlying mechanisms of his reaction seem to be very similar.

I’m all for team-mates duking it out on the track, as long as they are both mathematically in the running. However, if they have only one driver in the running and they have “Multifunction strategy A” prepared and discussed with the drivers ahead of time, then it’s a different matter altogether.

Massa is leaving Ferrari, and Alonso is not gonna win the championship this year, so why would team orders be necesSary at this point?

It is true that both championship are in hands of Vettel/Red Bull but 2nd in the constructors championship means a lot for Ferrari the loss of money if they are going to lose it for Mercedes would be something around 20 to 30 million euro (i read this information last year in Autosprint when Ferrari & Mclaren were fighting for the 2nd place in WCC) and that can make a difference in term of resources allocated to the 2014 project
Well in this race & fortunately 4th was the maximum a Ferrari car can achieve it was impossible to keep up with 2 Red Bulls & the Lotus in front but if it wasn’t for Roseberg penalty Alonso could have finished behind him with Massa unable to do the job and keep blocking him

@tifoso1989 You mean the project cars for next year that have been in the works since the 5th or 6th gp this year as claimed by both MGP and Ferrari. If anything who wins second is more of a price among manufactures than anything else, the cars have been well underway and I wouldn’t be surprised if they were two of the first released for next year.

@celeste Because Massa is slow. And because of that the Ferrari drivers lost places to Hulkenberg in the first pit stop, while it could have been differently. The only person that Massa races is Alonso and he does it in pretty stubborn way, once Alonso is out of reach he fades back like the place he lost to Rosberg at the final stage of the race which is what he had to do for the team.

Looks like someone grew a spine. Wonder why he stuck with the team for 3 years in a row even after knowing he could never beat Alonso on merit and that the team favors one driver if he has a shot at the WDC.

I sincerely wish he would get a seat next year so that he could show everyone how good he is or learn how bad he is.

So Alonso passed him and as always Massa finished way behind. Massa is a joke of a driver
. He is just a mediocre driver who has being kept by Ferrari because Ferrari wanted to help him recover. Yet he hasn’t done anything in the last 3 years. And about the team order that he was given yesterday! Did he comply with them? Of course not so stop trying to get attention. Massa is a joke and the only thing you did yesterday was to held up Alonso while it was clear that Alonso was way faster than him. Last but not least massa should be thankful that he is a f1 driver making lots of money after doing nothing for three years

Regarding Nico Hulkenberg, Martin Brundle kept repeating all day that his people tell him Hulkenberg has already signed a contract. He would not let it go. He mentioned it again after the race when Hulkenberg was interviewed. He asked Monisha Kaltenborn about it in a post race interview. He then told her he knows Hulkenberg has signed. With a team. A new team. But, he can’t say who because he told the sources he wouldn’t say.

Funny that Hulk keeps repeating that he as NOT finished a deal yet then @bullmello. I would guess the contract might be signed by Hulk but not by the team (like it was with Ferrari?), because the team is keeping the decision open in case a new backer knocks on the door with special preferences for drivers?

Now Eddie Jordan is saying Hulkenberg is going to Force India. It’s like Brundle and Jordan are trying to be the top inside guy. You could be right that the deal isn’t quite completed or maybe Hulkenberg has to wait for the team to announce it when they are ready to.

I just hope for Hulkenberg’s sake the move is good for him and whichever team is smart enough to sign him up. It looked like the move to Sauber was not a good one and then late in the season has turned out to be much better. Hulkenberg showed a lot of patience this season to keep his head down and just drive as best he could. You never heard him say anything negative about the team or his move to Sauber. If it is FI I hope they can deliver next season. Who knows what 2014 holds? I would like to have seen Hulkenberg in a Lotus, but next season is a really big question mark for them.

@hohum
Says who?
Take 7 points away from Vettel in each of the last three years and he would only have won one championship. And at that point in the season, it was really close between the top teams. So Vettel could NOT afford those 7 points.

The controversy of the incident in Malaysia is not about Vettel not obeying orders, is more about the fact that he himself asked the team to get Webber out of the way prior to the order given to stay put, at least for me.

@caci99 I gonna made a wild guess, and said you are kind of new to this site, because we have discussed the incident a lot and what you said is almost never mentioned. The point everybody “hates” is the fact that Vettel disobeyed team orders.

@celeste I am not new at the site, just don’t have time to post every day. The fact that in the discussions it was not mentioned doesn’t mean Vettel didn’t do it. As for the point of everybody, well they are every body, I am speaking for me :), and whats more it is not even hate :D but is not double standard.

When Vettel ignored TO in Sepang, it created such a hullabaloo with John Watson and Jacques Villeneuve even calling for a one race ban for Vettel. Now that Massa did the same thing, I would be very interested to know what John and Jacques have to say about this.

I find it amusing how utterly childish and obvious that coded message is. Multifunction strategy A, seriously? It sounds like they have a 9-year-old inventing code words. Couldn’t they just tell him to drink or something like that?

I think you hit on something here though. Team orders are a sensitive issue with people and have been both legal and illegal, while at the same time most people realize that even when ‘illegal’ there are a thousand ways to disguise them. And let’s face it…even when legal, nobody likes to see a driver pull over for his teammate with meters to go to hand him a win. Just saying I can understand some teams or team managers hesitancy to be blatant about it even if covert messages seem silly. They have sponsors to think about too.