Questions and answers about English usage

These ones? Those ones?

Eric writes:I was wondering if it is grammatically incorrect to use "these ones" or "those ones" when answering someone who just asked me a question like.. "which ones are done?" or "which of those still need to be wrapped?" It seems to me that if it's ok to say "this one" or "that one" that "these ones" and "those ones" would also be acceptable. I notice I use them more often when I am pointing at something and want to be very specific.

The guys at work say that it is incorrect usage of grammar. Are they right?

They're right, but I don't think I can offer a clear explanation.

"These" is the plural of "this" and "those" is the plural of "that." It's perfectly OK to say "This one is mine; that one is yours."

But when we go to the plural, the "ones" is understood: "These are mine; those are yours."

Why this inconsistent usage? I wish I knew. English is full of rules, and half of them are broken.

Afterthought: I've just realized that the problem is with the number. You can say "This one," and "These two." If the number is uncertain, you can use "ones" in certain ways:

"Bring me four potatoes."
"Which ones?" [particular potatoes from a larger group]
"Those four in the bowl."
"These four?"
"No, they're too small. Try the ones in the cupboard." [the uncertain number of potatoes in the cupboard]
"Are these OK?" [we know how many are wanted]
"Those are perfect."

We love 'em for being so lovin ("like these ... ones") grrrrrrrrr excuse me, I cringe at "ones"

A colloquialism is an expression not used in formal speech, writing or paralinguism. Colloquialisms can include words (such as "y'all", "gonna", "deadly" or "grouty"), phrases (such as "ain't nothin'" and "dead as a doornail"), or sometimes even an entire aphorism ("There's more than one way to skin a cat"). Dictionaries often display colloquial words and phrases with the abbreviation colloq.

I don't see "ones" as a colloquialism. Ones is not in the dictionary. I see "ones" as 'murdering the English language'. HERE'S where we're going with that one........

"Words that have a formal meaning may also have a colloquial meaning that, while technically incorrect, is recognizable due to common usage."

People just don't see the beauty of the English language...when used properly. eg. "My Fair Lady"

You don't pluralize "one" and you don't pluralize "two" or "three". These over here or those over there, but not "these ones" or "those ones". Or these three or those four. Please respond if you understand...or not.

Paula, you're generally right, but words like "one" and "two" can (rarely) be pluralized: The guests arrived in twos and threes. (I'd prefer "couples and threesomes," but that would imply relationships rather than random arrivals.)

And a prosecutor can safely say: "These three miscreants deliberately planned the robbery. Those two wretches beside them were to carry it out."

And of course when we're completely disorganized, we're at sixes and sevens!

This contrived controversy about "ones" is the kind of game played by those [ones] who want to act like [that is, as if] they are very educated devotees of English. But in reality, haven't read very much at all.

They just know what the word games are. (Example: "For whom it is" rather than "who it is for".) They parrot so-called grammar rules, 80% of them made up in the last 150 years, that they memorize like the sales pitch of a snake-oil salesmen.

We have these types running all over Japan, "teaching" English. One [!} wonders how much reading they've ever done along a way, whether it be novels, anthologies, legal opinions or what have you.

This is just a possibility; but might it not have anything to do with the much-hated "ones" and rather with the the fact that the "these" or "those" in the sentence is a plural pronoun? When we say "That one," "that" is an adjective, indicating which one, but there are no plural adjectives (to my knowledge, limited as it is), so we cannot use "those" in the same manner, thus making it grammatically incorrect. You would be, in saying "those ones," using two pronouns both referring to the same things, so the phrase is redundant.

I agree with Ben on 11/15/11. It's that simple. As for Hoofin's example from King James, it is antiquated; but the phrase "little ones" is one we still use to refer to young children. The operative difference from the germaine discussion is the word "little" between "these" and "ones". Calling people knowledgeable of the "rules" or, more accurately, practices of English "snake-oil salesmen" is arrogant, to say the least. One cannot teach any subject if one doesn't comply with established rules or acceptable practices, especially to speakers of other languages. Usage (practice) varies from field to field: religion, law, medicine, business, etc. Hoofin obviously understands this and enjoys flaunting his/her education just like the rest of us (smile).

Now, I've got a problem with this. In my line of work we handle innumerable doors, drawers and drawer faces. So when a fellow employee asks me, "Which ones should I bring over?" I don't want to tell him, "those forty" or "those fifty" because that's just plain silly. I'm going to reply to his pronoun 'ones' with my own pronoun in the sentence, "Those ones."

Im here to prove you all wrong. If you were to refer to a group of "ones" it is correct. If you were playing cards and the deck had a card with the value of one, and winning the game will get you three dollar bills. And your hand was all ones. You could say "I'm definitely gonna lose I have all these ones." Then your friend could reply "Those ones are gonna cost you these ones" Those would be in reference to the cards with a value of one. These would be in reference to the the dollar bills. I know you could say it better many different ways. Such as leaving out these and those but it proves it can work when a group of ones are the subject. You could even say "Your ones" tell me I'm wrong.

To say that we can't pluralize "one" is ridiculous. If I show you two pairs of shoes, one of which is red and the other blue, and then I ask, "Which do you like better?" there's no way around saying "the blue ones" or "the red ones." The idea that "these ones" and "those ones" is any different doesn't make any sense logically.

It's just like saying that you can NEVER end a sentence with a preposition, which, as Winston Churchill has made clear, is something "up with which [we] shall not put." Artificial rules imposed upon the English language don't make it more beautiful; they make it more restricted, less expressive, and ultimately more ridiculous.

How can a single entity be pluralised? You can have a group of ones as mentioned earlier, the shelf in the hardware store for house numbers contain a batch of ones, the deck of cards has four ones (or aces).

The exception I do see however is when referring to people, loved ones, little ones.

I find it hilarious that so many of you are proclaiming those who use 'these ones' or 'those ones' are ignorant of the English language yet you fail to demonstrate it substantively. There's a reason for that. The reason is because it does not break any rules. Just because you all find it unpleasant does not make it incorrect. You've shown your ignorance on the matter by coming up with propositions as to why it's incorrect off the top of your head only to have your objections rightfully dismissed on an individual basis. Say you find it distasteful, you're entitled to that. If you say it's incorrect, prove it, otherwise, it is you that is incorrect. It has been in common usage and its meaning has been explored by linguists hundreds of years ago. Read up before you claim authority on the matter.