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Things Getting Ugly in Tallahassee

Hopefully, all the facts will come out eventually, but if some of the things that are being reported are true, then this could wind up getting really ugly. I hope some of these things wind up not proving to be true. If they are, then the Tallahassee police should be ashamed of themselves.

Grape works as a soda. Sort of as a gum. I wonder why it doesn't work as a pie. Grape pie? There's no grape pie. - Larry David

Re: Things Getting Ugly in Tallahassee

Its already ugly.

I think it boils down to a "he said/she said" situation except apparently the "he" has a witness that appears willing to support the implied "he" version that contact was consensual (i'm not sure Winston has even formally given police any statement so I'm assuming that would be the position Winston's lawyer indicates).

Given the nature of the allegations, I could understand why a detective would caution a victim, in essence asking her, "Are you willing to endure this?" because her testimony is likely going to make up the bulk of the evidence and the bulk of the case and it was apparent that Winston had already lawyered up. Without her fortitude, the police and the prosecutor have very little and any attempts to collect other evidence were clearly going to take alot of effort. So I'm not willing to throw the police under the bus. But in a vacuum, it sure doesn't come off as sympathetic if the family's characterization of the "warning" is correct. But again, they have one prism filtering their interpretation which is obviously going to paint things in a way that advocates for their daughter in the strongest possible way.

Given the very, very few "facts" that have been leaked, this seems like the type of rape case that is the worst case scenario concerning trying to get a conviction. Then of course, Winston could also be completely innocent.

It's ugly.

"This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

Re: Things Getting Ugly in Tallahassee

Nevermind whether Winston is guilty or not, what kind of joke is this police department? The girl gave them a specific name and they never even interviewed him? Wow. I'm guessing that isn't "standard procedure" for police departments investigating rape allegations.

"I talked to an advance scout that told me if Joey Votto and Albert Pujols were on the same team he'd advise his team to do the unthinkable...pitch around Votto to get to Pujols." - Buster Olney, ESPN

Re: Things Getting Ugly in Tallahassee

Originally Posted by jojo

Its already ugly.

I think it boils down to a "he said/she said" situation except apparently the "he" has a witness that appears willing to support the implied "he" version that contact was consensual (i'm not sure Winston has even formally given police any statement so I'm assuming that would be the position Winston's lawyer indicates).

Given the nature of the allegations, I could understand why a detective would caution a victim, in essence asking her, "Are you willing to endure this?" because her testimony is likely going to make up the bulk of the evidence and the bulk of the case and it was apparent that Winston had already lawyered up. Without her fortitude, the police and the prosecutor have very little and any attempts to collect other evidence were clearly going to take alot of effort. So I'm not willing to throw the police under the bus. But in a vacuum, it sure doesn't come off as sympathetic if the family's characterization of the "warning" is correct. But again, they have one prism filtering their interpretation which is obviously going to paint things in a way that advocates for their daughter in the strongest possible way.

Given the very, very few "facts" that have been leaked, this seems like the type of rape case that is the worst case scenario concerning trying to get a conviction. Then of course, Winston could also be completely innocent.

It's ugly.

I find it amazing that the detective was warning the victim against going forward. From my experience, most detectives take the initial statement, gather the evidence and send it on to the prosecutor. It's the prosector's job to determine whether the evidence is sufficient to go forward and to speak with the victim about the prudence of taking it to trial.

Burn down the disco. Hang the blessed DJ. Because the music that he constantly plays, it says nothing to me about my life.

Re: Things Getting Ugly in Tallahassee

I went on a blind date recently, set up through mutual friends. After spending about four hours together, dinner, movie, etc. I dropped her off at her car. We talked on the phone as we drove home and she asked how tall I was, because she thought I was tall (I'm only 6'1"). I asked her how tall she thought I was. Her guess was off by 3 or 4 inches.

A rape victim not being able to accurately guess the height of her attacker is probably way down the list of things police should be worried about. Especially when she specifically named him and his DNA is found on her panties. I'm assuming the situation a few months ago at Vandy was handled a bit differently than how the TPD handled this Jameis Winston case?

"I talked to an advance scout that told me if Joey Votto and Albert Pujols were on the same team he'd advise his team to do the unthinkable...pitch around Votto to get to Pujols." - Buster Olney, ESPN

Re: Things Getting Ugly in Tallahassee

Originally Posted by New York Red

I went on a blind date recently, set up through mutual friends. After spending about four hours together, dinner, movie, etc. I dropped her off at her car. We talked on the phone as we drove home and she asked how tall I was, because she thought I was tall (I'm only 6'1"). I asked her how tall she thought I was. Her guess was off by 3 or 4 inches.

A rape victim not being able to accurately guess the height of her attacker is probably way down the list of things police should be worried about. Especially when she specifically named him and his DNA is found on her panties. I'm assuming the situation a few months ago at Vandy was handled a bit differently than how the TPD handled this Jameis Winston case?

I really don't know what to think about this. When the reports first surfaced about a week ago I thought this case going to the state attorney's office was a ploy because Winston was famous. But the more details that come out, it is looking worse and worse on both Winston and FSU.

If the woman claimed she was raped, and the police had her underwear wouldn't they have don't a rape kit as well? Its unfortunate but I can buy into the Tallahassee police "telling" her that she doesn't want to proceed with charges. I don't think any program should make snap decisions (see Dez Wells) but things are getting worse for Jamis.

Re: Things Getting Ugly in Tallahassee

Originally Posted by bucksfan2

I really don't know what to think about this. When the reports first surfaced about a week ago I thought this case going to the state attorney's office was a ploy because Winston was famous. But the more details that come out, it is looking worse and worse on both Winston and FSU.

If the woman claimed she was raped, and the police had her underwear wouldn't they have don't a rape kit as well? Its unfortunate but I can buy into the Tallahassee police "telling" her that she doesn't want to proceed with charges. I don't think any program should make snap decisions (see Dez Wells) but things are getting worse for Jamis.

Right now we have an anonymous accuser claiming she was raped, a garment belonging to the victim that has Winston's DNA on it (we know this because the police collected a sexual assault kit the day that the incident was reported and Winston volunteered a sample of his DAN last week), a denial by Winston that there was a rape, and affidavids from two people who were with the alledged victim and Winston who don't corroborate the victim's story in sworn statements.

The police have the accuser's testimony and evidence collected during a rape kit. The accuser also quit cooperating in February essentially making it much harder to effectively investigate especially since they had to contact Winston through a lawyer. That DNA matched really isn't even a major issue. If Winston didn't deny sexual contact and affidavids suggest a consensual situation, it most likely comes down to whether there were any injuries observed suggested of rape. Apparently the accuser wasn't legally intoxicated given the letter from the family so there isn't even that potential issue of consent.

If the above is accurate, then this is a "he said/she said" situation where the accuser quit cooperating and the accused retained a lawyer almost instantly. Even if Winston would be indicted, this is probably the worst case scenario in terms of trying to get a conviction.

The Tallahassee police look bad but they really had zero to propel this case from February on while the accused apparently had witnesses casting doubt on the facts. I think any marks/injuries is going to be a key issue. I also don't buy for a second that Winston's room mate witnessed a rape and police refused to interview him. I could be wrong, but that assertion really needs to be proven.

Last edited by jojo; 11-21-2013 at 09:34 AM.

"This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

Re: Things Getting Ugly in Tallahassee

Originally Posted by jojo

Right now we have an anonymous accuser claiming she was raped, a garment belonging to the victim that has Winston's DNA on it (we know this because the police collected a sexual assault kit the day that the incident was reported and Winston volunteered a sample of his DAN last week), a denial by Winston that there was a rape, and affidavids from two people who were with the alledged victim and Winston who don't corroborate the victim's story in sworn statements.

The police have the accuser's testimony and evidence collected during a rape kit. The accuser also quit cooperating in February essentially making it much harder to effectively investigate especially since they had to contact Winston through a lawyer. That DNA matched really isn't even a major issue. If Winston didn't deny sexual contact and affidavids suggest a consensual situation, it most likely comes down to whether there were any injuries observed suggested of rape. Apparently the accuser wasn't legally intoxicated given the letter from the family so there isn't even that potential issue of consent.

If the above is accurate, then this is a "he said/she said" situation where the accuser quit cooperating and the accused retained a lawyer almost instantly. Even if Winston would be indicted, this is probably the worst case scenario in terms of trying to get a conviction.

The Tallahassee police look bad but they really had zero to propel this case from February on while the accused apparently had witnesses casting doubt on the facts. I think any marks/injuries is going to be a key issue. I also don't buy for a second that Winston's room mate witnessed a rape and police refused to interview him. I could be wrong, but that assertion really needs to be proven.

I don't know what is collected in a rape kit. If one was done, then I would imagine that bruises, marks and or injuries would have been noted.

If the police coerced this woman to drop the case then we have a much larger issue at hand. If the police told her she doesn't want to press charges then we have a much larger issue at hand.

Finally, when I lived in the doors and a roommate of mine was in there with a girl I stayed out. If Winston's roommate(s) witnessed what was going on that would also raise some alarms with me. Why was in in there watching? Was something else going on? If he wasn't in the room then all he can say is the two entered the room consensual but just because you enter a room consensual doesn't mean that you are consenting to sex.

FWIW I think FSU suspends Winston indefinitely. They have Idaho next and in 10 days have Florida. It gives the states attorney's office time to decide if they are going to press charges. It makes FSU look like they are doing the right thing by suspending Winston during the investigation, at least for one game against cupcake city.

Re: Things Getting Ugly in Tallahassee

If charges are pursued, I hope they've got a slam dunk case because if there are holes in it and we go through all kinds of hoopla only to find this QB not guilty then that'd be the worst possible outcome. I'm sure the prosecutor is pointing that out to her now.

Re: Things Getting Ugly in Tallahassee

They have the DNA, so it doesn't matter that she said he was 5-11 and he's really 6-4(ish?), they have proof that he was "there", the only question is if she agreed to be with him, or he forced himself upon her.

Listening to Mike & Mike this morning and they had their legal guy on (forget his name, but if you watch or listen to ESPN you've heard him by now for various legal issues that come up in sports). He said at this point, it basically comes down to the physical damage, if any that was done to this girl. He compared it to several cases in the past where there was a he said/she said case. In Ben Toothlessraper's case, there was no phyical damage done to the accuser, so there was nothing to convict him upon. In Mike Tyson's case, there was physical damage, therefor he spent 10 years in prison.

Since this girl went to the emergency room and had the rape test done, there is going to be doctor/nurse accounts of any physical damage done to her. If she was beat up, or there are signs that the sex was forced upon her, Winston could be in trouble. If there are no signs that anything happened consentual sex then there would be nothing to convict him upon other than her "word"

Re: Things Getting Ugly in Tallahassee

I don't know what is collected in a rape kit. If one was done, then I would imagine that bruises, marks and or injuries would have been noted.

I don't have a link but they did collect a sexual assault kit the day that the accuser reported the incident. We don't know if there were injuries that corroborated the accuser's story or not.

Originally Posted by bucksfan2

If the police coerced this woman to drop the case then we have a much larger issue at hand. If the police told her she doesn't want to press charges then we have a much larger issue at hand.

If the police refused to interview a direct witness to a rape, refused to investigate with proper vigor, and coerced the accuser to drop the case, then there certainly is a major issue. But we know that the police collected evidence immediately upon the incident being reported because they had a sample to compare with the DNA that Winston volunteered. I'm not ready to argue that the FBI needs to descend upon the Tallahasee PD just yet. The reasoning behind the prosecutor's decision will be pretty illuminating, I think.

Originally Posted by bucksfan2

Finally, when I lived in the doors and a roommate of mine was in there with a girl I stayed out. If Winston's roommate(s) witnessed what was going on that would also raise some alarms with me. Why was in in there watching? Was something else going on? If he wasn't in the room then all he can say is the two entered the room consensual but just because you enter a room consensual doesn't mean that you are consenting to sex.

I'm not ready to take either side's version of the events as currently understood in the media at face value. I want to see how the DA's office sorts things out because that decision will be informed by important facts that we don't have access to. But I seriously dount there was a roommate watching the encounter and police refused to interview him if they thought it was probable that a rape occurred. I dont know though. College kids do some incredibly evil things to one another and occasionally adults facilitate them by covering it up.

But this is a big deal. The impact on the accuser, the accused, and the community all have to be weighed and from the very little we know about this, the DA is contemplating a worst case scenario concerning a burden of proof. I am so glad that I'm not the one making the decision.

Last edited by jojo; 11-21-2013 at 10:04 AM.

"This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

Re: Things Getting Ugly in Tallahassee

This simply isn't a matter of an accuser's concerns trump all. Impact on the accused is also important.

In this particular case, the impact of being charged with a felony on the accused also has a tremendous impact on the community as he will be immediately removed from the FSU team which could result in millions of dollars of lost revenue for local interests given the implications for a national championship.

Blow your gasket but also save the jaded moralizing for another forum before you spew it in a response. This is not suggesting that a rape should be ignored.

It's an argument that the DA has a burden to make sure that if a rape charge is going to be issued, then it had better have a reasonable chance of being proven given the potential damage to the accused and the community.

In other words, it isn't about football. It's about fairness. And it's perfectly reasonable to argue that position regardless of whether one is a football fan or hates football.

"This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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