The pizza there is great, before and after the fermentation changes, not to mention the awesome sandwiches and friendly staff! And about the fermentation argument, I'm going to quote the great Adam Sandler in the Movie Billy Madison "Who gives a shi*."

I tend look at bulk fermentation in the context of a commercial setting to be a practical concern more that a technical one (provided the total fermentation time is adequate for the pizza style). If you are making a lot of dough and can't ball it right away you might employ a bulk ferment. If you are making dough at home, I see no reason you can't ball it up pretty quickly and have the bulk and proof be continuous/one long ferment.

I do think that the time a dough ball "proofs" has some (important) impact/s. There is the aspect of getting proper gluten strength and adequate CO2 (during bulk) -- and then distributing this when you ball. You are more likely to have very large air pockets in a dough that was balled earlier. This may or may not be a bad thing depending. Also a dough that has proofed for longer tends to be more extensible, and in some cases is too extensible. There is that sweet spot of dough that opens easily and quickly but no overly so. Not an easy thing to nail though.

Whatever works for you is what I think you/one/anyone should do. I have done quite a few experiments doing things the "wrong way" on purpose/for kicks and in some cases the results were superior to the "right way". Often methods develop a certain way and stick, regardless of if they are optimal. They become entrenched and people are uncomfortable deviating from the beaten path.

One thing that is very true is that everyone does everything a little bit differently and that's OK with me.

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scott123

John, for a guy that's so incredibly knowledgeable about sourdoughs, I am shocked that you're unaware of the impact fermentation has on the taste of dough. This has nothing to do with CO2 or gluten. Difara gets plenty of both in a single hour ferment. But they also end up with a notoriously tasteless dough that has to be judged on the toppings rather than crust. Totonno's- same thing- quick ferment, tasteless crust.

Time is taste. Sure, too much time is going to create other problems, but for an unmalted flour, 9 hours is nothing. 9 hours for an unmalted dough is like 2 for malted. In your experiments doing things the 'wrong' way, have you really achieved flavorful 2 hour malted doughs or 9 hour unmalted ones? I've spent countless hours trying to achieve this myself and I couldn't do it. There's no free lunch here. The only way enzymes are going to create a flavorful dough is through time. If you drastically shortchange that time, you will sacrifice taste, guaranteed. The science is rock solid on this.

Pizza is a living, breathing, creative work of art, and, as such, can have countless approaches, but when you get into styles, you cannot avoid standards. And Neapolitan pizza has standards- standards that, if you fail to follow, produce lack of authenticity and lower quality. 9 hours is most likely pretty close to authentic- I'm not arguing that. But it is a punch in the face to the quality standard set by American Neapolitan pizzerias. Forget the fact that there isn't a single member in this forum that would ever dream of fermenting Neapolitan dough 9 hours- this isn't about the home baker with their carefree logistics. Pick any single respected Neapolitan pizza maker in the U.S.- not one of them ferments in anything close to that time frame, regardless of the logistics they have to deal with. Roberto, Giulio, Anthony, Matthew- every single one of them understands the connection between time and good tasting dough, and, regardless of how much of a pain in the butt it is for them to find the space to ferment, they endure that hassle and make it work. They wouldn't dream of putting out anything less than perfect.

Scott in no way shape of form am I advocating a short ferment and if it sounded like that I apologize.

I was more pointing out that how long the dough is proofed really changes its handling characteristics and that the total time of fermentation is what has mattered most for me. I tend to use dough when I know it's ripe for use as opposed to forcing a timeline do to all the factors that have influence. That is a luxury I have at home.

I agree wholeheartedly that Di Fara, and other similar doughs would certainly benefit from much more extended ferments for a few reasons. However you and I and two other people are the only ones who care. Exaggerating but you get my point. As you noted a malted dough needs less time to develop.

Ultimately what matters for a pizzeria is what enables their business. Somehow I doubt if Jay made a dough that met your (and my) standards that he would sell more pizza and that I would think matters most to him. People (ignorant though they may be) seem to really enjoy his pizza.

Hi, I have been a mostly silent member of this great forum for 5 years and I am a pizzamaker at Cane Rosso. I worked 4 years at Settebello (Las Vegas) started the pizza program for Chef Scott Conant at DOCG in LV. And was briefly the head pizzaiolo at Pizzeria DaMarco in DC. This is the first place I've worked where we didn't use a long bulk fermentation (my prefered method) BUT I've never been a part of a restaurant where I'm told or overhear customers say "This is the best pizza I've ever had!" so often. It's a good feeling to hear that . And I hear it ALOT

scott123

Scott in no way shape of form am I advocating a short ferment and if it sounded like that I apologize.

I'm sorry John, when you mentioned the 'wrong' way sometimes being superior, I took that as meaning that drastically short ferments can be superior. Because you're such a doughmaking authority, my misconstruction generated a knee jerk reaction.

While I do agree that Jay may not see any upswing in sales with a longer ferment, I don't think he'd lose sales, and, more importantly, I'd like to think that it's about more than just sales for him. I would never, in a million years, say what I've said, if I didn't think Jay was an obsessive like the rest of us. If, say, Dom Demarco were to show up tomorrow, regardless of how I feel about his dough, I'd have nothing to say to him. It would be like talking to the CEO of Dominos.

I took that as meaning that drastically short ferments can be superior.

Ok, I'll be the lone wolf on this. I am no authority on pizza much less NP pizza, but in my trials, for me...the best textured NP pies that I have made have been sub 8hr pies. As far as flavor differences, when using cake yeast or commercial yeast between a short and long ferment, it is minimal.

The reason so many NY quick doughs taste so bland is because of 1) low salt levels 2) overmixing and oxidation of the dough.

If you avoid overmixing the dough, a quick dough taste nearly the same to me as an extended fermented dough. The difference for me is minor.

The flavor differences created by sauce, cheese, and toppings will always be much more than short or long ferments when using CY or commercial yeast, and in some cases even with SD starters.

When several of the members here ate at Roberta's on the recent pizza tour, I polled them to see if they could taste the SD starter in the crust. I could not get one person to definitively say the crust was made with a starter except myself. I went and talk to the guys baking the pies and confirmed the use of a SD starter. It was mild, but there.

I can promise you that 99% of the general public can not taste the difference between a short and long fermented dough. I can also confidently say that the majority of the members here can not either. They probably can in their own pies that they have eaten 100 times, but not on a first tasting at a restaurant.

Hell, our top members weren't even sure if they could taste sourdough or not.

Just My 2cents,

Chau

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scott123

Sorry, but I'm going to have to play the elevation card. Water activity is increased at higher elevations, and, enzyme activity is directly relational to water activity, so, at higher elevations, enzyme activity (flavor generation) occurs at a faster rate.

If you know what to look for, it's pretty easy to see enzyme activity in the crumb and even easier to taste it. One bite of Totonno's and we all knew. White crumbs are almost always tasteless. Take a look at Difara's:

Well Scott, we will just have to disagree. My favorite NP pie that I have made texture wise, was done in 4 hours with IDY. Yes it was at high elevations and it was a high hydration dough (69% I believe), but increase enzyme activity isn't going to make that much of a difference in a 4 hour time period.

I would also say high salt levels around 3% are going to make pinpointing the difference much harder.

Here is a challenge to anyone interested. You come to visit me and I will make you pizza. I will make 6 pies, either 3 of each or 2 and 4, short ferment vs extended. We will put various toppings and sauces on the pies. If anyone can guess at least 5 of the 6 correct, I will reimburse you the cost of your plane ticket.

Even if you don't win the challenge, you will get free pizza, and room and board during your stay. It's a win win situation.

I don't know Scott, I say overmixing and low salt levels are to blame. Of the hundreds of same day doughs (10 hr or less) that I have made, none have tasted as bland and flavorless as that Totonno's crust and the many that I find locally. The only times I have had issues with blandness in my bread doughs is when I was experimenting with 1% salt levels. At 3%, it's gonna be a tough call. Anyone up for the challenge?

No definitely not over proofed or overripe with my long fermented doughs. The hardest thing about making proper pizza is the crumb texture. If you get the balance right, you get light, fluffy, cloud like. If you get it wrong, you get the opposite. Long ferments are tricky because of enzyme activity. It degrades the gluten structure and messes with the texture. You have to adjust mixing times, hydration ratios, salt levels, to dial in the proper texture. You also should employ reballs after a semi lengthy bulk to rebuild the damage gluten. Long ferments are much harder to do properly than a quick dough.

For a quick dough like Jay is using, a lengthy bulk is not needed. It's in the balance of achieving the right crumb texture (gluten strength) not the length of the bulk.

Flour was all caputo, high hydration for my dry climate, hand folds like in Tartine bread, 75f room temp, baked in wfo 900f+.

Thanks Chau. How much IDY? When it the timeframe did you ball the dough?

Johnny I had meant the dough to be a 6-8 hour dough but b/c of the high hydration of the dough it was fermenting too fast. IIRC, the yeast amount was 0.6% IDY. My memory is foggy, but I believe the dough was balled after it had risen around 50%. The time frame was within those 3 hours I suppose. So this is equivalent to a long bulk if you are doing a long fermented dough. And the balls were well proofed like Roberto's dough. I need to replicate this dough with CY soon. I haven't played much with it except a few more times since I have been spending most of my efforts doing NY slice. FWIW, I have also gotten this amazing texture with a 30 hour dough, but again...balancing the kneading, hydration, rebuilding of the strength, is all very tricky. But it can be done though.

It may sound totally rediculous but this was the best texture crumb I've enjoyed in a NP pie, but I haven't eaten that many. You should try it sometime.

Chau, I'll take your word for it and the pics and vid are telling as well.

I asked so many questions not because I was incredulous but because I figured I'd give it a whirl. I do believe the conventional wisdom, even at the high level around here, is not the only way to go. One thing is for sure, a young pizza dough should have a lot of spring.

No worries Johnny. And yes the spring is from the undamaged gluten matrix and added yeast.

Though there is an exceeding amount of great info here, not everything that is known about pizza has been discovered IMO. My belief is that we can always do better, so I keep striving. There is always more to be discovered. We don't see these results unless we purposefully or accidental find them out. That takes a lot of patience and experimentation of the polar opposites of the spectrum to see the differences and then dial it in until you get what you want. To me, there is not a better or worse here, just a preference and my preference right now is for a young dough.

If anyone can do it or wants to show me what is proper NP or isn't, I am all ears and eyes. I would love to learn since I'm always seeking to improve the crust. Let's see it. Crumb shots, videos, discussion of methods and methodology works for me. Not pizza theory, but pizza evidence. If I had more free time, I would love to have the opportunity to go volunteer at Jay's place. I'm sure there is a lot to learn.

« Last Edit: May 23, 2012, 09:32:21 PM by Jackie Tran »

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scott123

Chau, let me get something straight here. Are you telling me that every single member here (including yourself) and every single domestic Neapolitan pizzeria owner is doing extended ferments, not because any of us has thoroughly tested extended ferments and found them to be superior, but because someone, a long time ago, said 'extended ferments are better,' and all of us just blindly jumped on board? That we're all involved in this mass hallucination whereby we think we can taste the difference between emergency and extended ferments, but we're all fooling ourselves and really can't? That we're all somehow sacrificing texture for a flavor boost mirage?

Is that what you're saying?

I know that being a maverick is important to you, but you're asking a question that's been answered and tested thousands of times, both within these walls and in all of our mouths. Even Reinhart, who's clueless about pizza, understands the innate flavor superiority of the extended ferment in breadmaking.

While I agree that quite a few pizza eating customers probably can't tell the difference (DiFara's sells a LOT of pizza), as you get into making dough yourself, especially extremely long ferments, discerning enzyme generated flavors is effortless. Everyone's pizzamaking journey has included, at some point, an extreme ferment- more than 4 days. Once you do a couple of these, the flavor compounds from the enzyme activity become so strong that when you dial back the ferments to more moderate time frames, it's far easier to detect the flavor compounds that the enzymes are buying you.

Enzymes break proteins down into amino acids. Extended ferments are the chemical equivalent of adding a little soy sauce to your dough. Everyone, if they know what to look for, can detect this umami. Umami is one of the most discernible flavors on the planet. You can see the darker color and you can taste it, and, for those that are aware of it, they love it, across the board. I don't have to fly to New Mexico to take your challenge, just post a photo of your emergency and extended crumbs and I'll pick out the extended one based on color.