You are implying here that only muslims blow up nightclubs which reënforces my asumption that you are a racist (or at least religiously intolerant).

Calling people racists is certainly not what we want here. I know Deknow and he isn't a racist. Please take my word on that Kassen.

Ok, I will, but surely we don´t want people to imply artists are incapable of politcal thought or suicide bombings a uniquely Islamitcal phenomenon either? Even if I take your word that this isn´t what Deknow thinks I´d be quite hard pressed to seperate those ideas from the ones he presents here.

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I wonder, does the CAE consider the acts of September 11th to be art? I mean, if one thinks putting mutant flies and bacteria out and about to get people upset is art, then wouldn't September 11 be a masterpiece?

No, of cource not. Releasing mutant flies is perhaps not the wisest or nicest or even most artistc thing to do, it may even be irresponcible, but you can´t simply link it to the Sept.11 attacks simply because both upset people.

The one thing I like about the Sept.11 attacks is that before those everybody would compare whatever was being discussed to the internet, wether this was at all relevant or not. Since those attacks people compare everything to those. It´s a nice change of pace but I hope we find something new soon._________________Kassen

Kassen; Forgive me for butting in with my arch-conservative views on art, but to my mind this kind of conceptual experimentation doesn't make for art. At best, it's an argument in the debate on what constitutes art, but if that's art, then anything that ANYONE defines art is art, then Art has been hijacked by (possibly well-meaning) intellectuals through their superior argumentative skills. I thought art was something one practiced to get good at, not something to inflict on people.
_________________Where there are too many policemen, there is no liberty. Where there are too many soldiers, there is no peace. Where there are too many lawyers, there is no justice.
Lin Yutang (1895-1976)

Kassen; Forgive me for butting in with my arch-conservative views on art, but to my mind this kind of conceptual experimentation doesn't make for art. At best, it's an argument in the debate on what constitutes art, but if that's art, then anything that ANYONE defines art is art, then Art has been hijacked by (possibly well-meaning) intellectuals through their superior argumentative skills. I thought art was something one practiced to get good at, not something to inflict on people.

Ok. that´s your opinion, why are you directing it at me? I never said this was art at all, I didn´t even say the creator was a artist. I intentionally keep out of discussions on what "art" is, I´ve done so for ages. It´s even very rare for me to use the word "art" without quotes in a serious, litteral context.

I respect your views on what is and what isn´t "art" and what you can and can´t do with it. I wish I had clearcut thoughts on that subject too._________________Kassen

The one thing I like about the Sept.11 attacks is that before those everybody would compare whatever was being discussed to the internet, wether this was at all relevant or not. Since those attacks people compare everything to those. It´s a nice change of pace but I hope we find something new soon.

If you can see something positive in the Sept 11 attacks (I'm not saying you condone them) then maybe you could use that same creative ability to see something positive in the things people say on the forum.

In the above statement you say, "everybody would compare whatever was being discussed to the internet", and also "people compare everything to those (the attacks)". I understand why one uses such generalizations or exaggerations in casual conconversation to make a point; we all do this from time to time. When Deknow used similar conversational techniques you jumped on him and branded him a racist.

When we read things on the forum that sound racist, or narrow minded, or even stupid, there are at least three things that could be happening:

1) the author is a racist, narrow minded, or stupid.
2) the author is none of those, but was ineffective in the use of language and gave the wrong impression
3) the reader misread or misinterpreted the words and got the wrong meaning.

Thus, there is a better than even chance that jumping to conclusion number 1 is an error. I think various combinations of 2 and 3 happen quite often._________________--Howard
my music and other stuff

No, of cource not. Releasing mutant flies is perhaps not the wisest or nicest or even most artistc thing to do, it may even be irresponcible, but you can´t simply link it to the Sept.11 attacks simply because both upset people.

All events are percieved more or less contextually. Other angles might of course give more insight, but mock attacks of the biological kind Some of the suggestions by the CAE are pranks that even simulate disasters of a really large scale. How are such events supposed to be handled? You got to take the threat seriously and protect people in the danger zone ASAP. It is easy to imagine a CAE inspired prank seriously disturbing the lives of a large number of people. We might be talking hundreds of thousands here. Maybe more. I don´t think the CAE is into good clean old fashioned jokes. This is something else. I must add that I am no longer talking about Kurtz here, but rather the image the CAE portrays of itself.

A completely different matter is retaliation and acts of terrorism. We must be aware that the "if you you kick my dog, then I will kill your family" line of reasoning is not a new invention. In some insane way this is supposed to be the main thinking behind 911. Unreasonable and cruel? Yes, sure.. but we have seen this before. Related to this is the motivation for allied area bombing of civilian targets in Germany during World War 2. Little of this slaughter affected the seriously bad guys having quality time on the East Front and this did absolutely not help any prisoners in the death camps. However, at best it helped end the war.
Both the Wehrmact and the SS used retaliation in a big way in order to control the civilians in the occupied countries.
Terror as means to convince a Japan to simply give in was the main reasoning behind the destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Shit like this tend to happen. However, none of these shitty incidents were pranks. And these events and others determine the context._________________A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"

[
ur opinion, why are you directing it at me? I never said this was art at all, I didn´t even say the creator was a artist. I respect your views on what is and what isn´t "art" and what you can and can´t do with it. I wish I had clearcut thoughts on that subject too.

We're probably closer in our views than we thought!
Anyway, I'm fucked oops, sorry, DARNED if I know what art is, but I think there's a difference between "art terrorism" like John Cage with his 4'33 or that Korean (wasn't he Korean?) guy who blew up a grand piano at a concert hall - it was his idea of "music for prepared piano" in this case the preparation was a bit of dynamite,
where you as an audience member are made aware that Art may take place, and you may not enjoy it (that's okay!), and somebody going "I'm gonna inflict Art upon you, and I don't give two flying fucks if you're an unwilling recipient, I name you a member of my audience!!!!! It's my right, for I'm an ARTISTE!!!!!!!"
As we all know, when that many exclamation marks are used, it's a sign of a not only twisted, but probably severel SPRAINED mind. _________________Where there are too many policemen, there is no liberty. Where there are too many soldiers, there is no peace. Where there are too many lawyers, there is no justice.
Lin Yutang (1895-1976)

If you can see something positive in the Sept 11 attacks (I'm not saying you condone them) then maybe you could use that same creative ability to see something positive in the things people say on the forum.

Well put. Of cource there´s a heavy dose of irrony in the Sept11 comment too.

Deknow does have a point in that the Patriot act is seen as such a bad thing in certain circles that any use of it is inherently suspicious. Frankly I can see very well where that reasoning came from but indeed in this case the whole situation does warrant investigation and it may actually have been right to use that act. If Deknow would have concentrated on that aspect then I would´ve agreed, however he instead choose to concentrate on artists and in a way that I feel is imballanced and unjustified, particularly because I would suspect that opinions amongst artists would vary wildly, probably more so then amongst any other profession.

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In the above statement you say, "everybody would compare whatever was being discussed to the internet", and also "people compare everything to those (the attacks)". I understand why one uses such generalizations or exaggerations in casual conconversation to make a point; we all do this from time to time. When Deknow used similar conversational techniques you jumped on him and branded him a racist.

I don´t think that´s quite the same. I claimed all people (which indeed is exagerated) were following paterns of discussion fashionable at the time while Deknow was implying a inability of artists to discuss politics and a tendency amongst muslims to suicide-bomb. I think those two are quite different. If we´d translate them to personal acusations then "you compare everything to the internet" would be considdered either silly or exagerated while "you are unable to discuss politics" or "you are a potential suicide-bomber or at least someone who aproves of those who are" would be insulting.

The strategy is perhaps similar and indeed both generalise beyond what´s valid but the context and meaning are quite different to me.

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When we read things on the forum that sound racist, or narrow minded, or even stupid, there are at least three things that could be happening:

1) the author is a racist, narrow minded, or stupid.
2) the author is none of those, but was ineffective in the use of language and gave the wrong impression
3) the reader misread or misinterpreted the words and got the wrong meaning.

Thus, there is a better than even chance that jumping to conclusion number 1 is an error. I think various combinations of 2 and 3 happen quite often.

Yes, I accepted your word for 1 and perhaps the problem was indeed one of bad phrasing or misunderstanding but in that case I do think some of his statements could do with clarification.

I may have been off base in calling Deknow racist outright and should perhaps instead have written something along the lines of "to me this would seem quite close to racism, could you clarify?" instead. "Racism" was also the wrong word since muslims are not one race.

Back to your first phrase about "being positive", I think Deknow discovering that the individual artists found on this forum don´t conform to his previously held idea is a very positive thing which is why I encouraged him to speak with individual muslims in private, personal conversation.

For one thing who is seen as "prominent" or "a leader of a community" heavily depends on how you look at a group and in this case I think the media are doing some heavy filtering. After that filtering the most prominent muslim one is likely to see might be Bin Laden who is a member of a small fringe sect and who indeed does aprove of terrorism (and guerilia warfare too, if that´s relevant). I think it would be much better to speak to some individuals directly and even if the "racist" bit of my posts was indeed fairly negative, I think that´s a very positive idea.

Broader, I simply do not aprove of everything. I don´t think every phrase uttered by anyone is a marvelous gem of wisdom. I want to aproach things critically, reserving the right to aprove of some elements of what a person says yet disagreeing with others or perhaps the focus. This frequently and in many places gets seen as "negative", it is beyond me what´s negative about it.

Frankly I think I was doing exactly what Deknow wanted artists to do; he thought artists should speak out against this act that could easily be interperted as terrorism when they heard of it. I spoke out against what I thought could easily be interperted as religious intollerance when I saw it. In this case you told me I had it wrong, but hopefully you can also see where I got this mistaken idea, some of those phrases simply are badly worded and accidentally imply Deknow has a postion he doesn´t hold but that should be discouraged on a international, multicultural board. I don´t see how I did anything wrong, have a large circle of friends from very diverse backgrounds and from many countries and religions which made me strongly opposed to the type of expression I thought was made here._________________Kassen

Realy? Where have you shown this[that the artistic community has supported steve kurtz blindly]? What is "the artistic community"? Nearly everybody I know or deal with is a artist of some sort and I have yet to hear anybody speak out in support of him. I´d like them to form a community though.

well, i can only speak from my own experience...which includes following this case quite closely as it unfolded and talking to a lot of people online and in person. there have been numerous benefits and calls to action on kurtz's behalf and support by artist communties all over the world. the media coverage has been one sided (and almost all of it completely based on cae press releases). in my personal relationships with people (mostly other artists) this subject has come up several times and never is the "artist" i'm speaking to aware of what the cae produces, what the facts in this case are...just blind defense of a persecuted artist. not all answers are available via google, but use it a little, and see how much news or opinion you can find that is critical of kurtz....i've found very little (and i've been looking for over a year). i'd be curious if the artists you associate with are critical of kurtz...saying that you don't know anyone that supports him doesn't tell me if the people you know have an opinion at all, or are aware of kurtz at all.

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Artists, by their nature, are probably inclined to give the world some more carefull thought then the average person and probably will be less inclined to go along with the current trend of calling everything out of the ordinary "terrorism".

ummm, thats giving artists a lot of credit for nothing but calling themselves an artist, isn't it? "careful thought" of an individual does not necesarily lead one to the truth or a good outcome, and is not necessarlily sound thinking. myself, i don't think that "everything out the ordinary is terrorism", but i do think that publishing step by step instructions for creating panic in the general population (and encouraging people to follow them) is at least inciting terrorism. have you read what the cae advocates?

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In my experience individual artists are quite capable of discussing politics honestly, there are probably many artists who are against this since they tend to be a extremely diverse bunch. Wether or not they contacted you to inform you of their opinion is a different matter. As it stands you heard some people you identified as "the artistic community" speak out against this use of the patriot act and based on this conclude that all artists are incapable of honest discussion and un willing or unable to speak up. I think it´s far more likely that they are debating their diverse views with their friends instead of sending a email to deknow to inform him of their point of view.

outside of this discussion here, every artist i've discussed this with (or seen a posting from) supports kurtz blindly. a google search on '"steve kurtz" benefit cae' results in 760 results, almost all announcements of fundraisers for kurtz's defense. i challenge you to find 3 opinions from (self described) artists who are at all critical of kurtz in the wake of this case. google doesn't have all the answers for sure, but if there was criticism of kurtz from the artisitc communtiy, i believe i would be able to find it.

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in the case of suicide bombers, they publicly claim to represent the intrests of all muslims (or at least those of their own group or sect).

Erm, there are many suicide bombers who aren´t muslims. Well, were.... Can I ask for a source for this claim?

well, many suicide bombers leave notes or videos. most in israel and iraq have had a group claim responsibility for the attack (islamic jihad, hamas, al asqua martyr brigades). if you really don't think that the common type of suicide bombing we are used to seeing in israel and iraq are young people recruted to serve a cause (and a group), then you might want to do a little more reading.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0305/p01s04-wome.htmlhttp://www.pbs.org/wnet/wideangle/shows/suicide/briefing.html
of course people throughout history have killed themselves in the process of killing others, but when i say suicide bombing, i'm refering to strapping a bomb to one's body and blowing oneself up in a public place. if this is happening on a widespread and organized scale by non-muslims i'm not aware of it (doesn't mean it's not happening). of course individuals who have suffered personally (death of a loved one) are more susceptable to recruitment for such a mission, but it is the organized nature (of the recruitment, the bomb making, and the claim of responisibility) that make this not the desprate actions of and individual, but actions of a group.

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Hmmm, I spoke to muslims who strongly condemned any form of violence. Do you actually talk to muslims at all? Do you have any muslim friends?

yes, there are many muslims that condem suicide bombings (and other forms of violence), and i suspect it's the majority. but it is certainly not the leaders who do so, and it's not large groups protesting such acts (imho, the institution of such acts are heinous enough that they warrent large scale protests).

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So, by your reasoning I can hold you personally responcible for the use of agent orange in Vietnam? The tortures in Iraq? (I´ll just go ahead and asume you live in the U.S).

it would be hard to "blame me" for agent orange (i wasn't born till 69). as far as the "tortures in iraq", you will note that there is plenty of criticism FROM US CITIZENS (both organized, individual, welfare mother and industry leader) in public, in protests, in the media, and person to person (and door to door). this is quite differant than the "anti suicide bomber movement" that we don't see.

i personally don't feel that the "tortures" in iraq (as we have seen thus far) are worse than those commited by the former regiem, and am pretty confident that iraq will be a better place to live as a result of getting rid of saddam, uday, and kusay (who commited unspeakable numbers of tortures and murders only on their whim, with no repercussions). there are always problems (and some of them are troubling) in such a situation (where you have prisoners of any kind), and undobtedly there have been and will be more abuses before it's all over...but people are held accountable (perhaps some more than others), and the overriding priciple here is "bring democracy", not "satisfy my (and my sons) lust for power" (although not everyone will agree with that, i'm sure). all that said, feel free to lay the blame of the tortures of iraq at my (and other supporters of this war) feet....but i implore you not to forget the role of the un oil for food, the "oil contracts" from germany and france that helped finance saddam's dictatorship, the 5000 people killed in one day with chemical weapons by saddam, and the support from muslim theocracies that don't allow women to vote, drive, or even allow one to have a copy of the (judeo-christian) bible, the effect of years and years of dictatorship (and i defy you to claim that saddam was a "benevolent dictator"), the invasion of kuiat....

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Yes, but you *are* looking at them as a part of that group and *are* placing demands on them based on that membership. If you would adress individual Muslims and ask them for their opinion then you could base your judgement on them as a person on their reply. You can´t just "call on" all muslims on a board dedicated to electronic music and expect some responce of the leaders of the muslim world.

i can, however, look at a many year history of suicide bombing in israel by muslims, and see that the lebonese government allows hamas who often take public responsibility for suicide bombings being given a safe haven in lebanon. i can see saddam gave substantial money to the families of suicide bombers in israel, i can see almost universal support of hezbola, hamas and other groups that publicly claim to be responsible for suicide bombings. there is enough going on to warrent comment and action from governments and religious leaders in the arab world (there is some lip service, but not even much of that) without a call from me on an electronic music forum for them to take a strong public stand.

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QUOTE: if suicide bombing is in fact supported by all of the individual muslims who are not speaking out, i think we have bigger problems than racisim....i'm assuming otherwise because i can't (and don't) believe that all (or most) muslims believe in such practices.

So what are you saying here?

uhhhh, that if the most of the muslim world does support suicide bombing and subscribes to the scary forms of radical islam (i don't think they do), then there will be a big war, and the question of whether or not i'm a racist will down in the noise of problems.

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No. There are some people supporting Kurtz and some of those are artists. There are some people that blow up nightclubs and some of those are Muslims. You are implying here that only muslims blow up nightclubs which reënforces my asumption that you are a racist (or at least religiously intolerant).

the organized support for steve kurtz lies largely within the artistic community, with no evidence of any discussion of weather he deserves that support from within that artistic community. i'd love to see you prove me wrong in this, as i'd have more faith in artists if i thought i was wrong.

i'm not aware of any organized group that over numbers of years have systematically blown themselves up in public spaces (nightclubs, busses, resturants, etc). certainly, lots of warriors have died in battle, japanese kamakazi pilots performed suicide missions, but those were largely against "military targets". the people that (in current times) do organize and carry out such attacks seem to exist only within the muslim community (please prove me wrong). i do not think this makes a case for "racial profiling" of any sort (i think such practices create huge holes wherever the focus isn't), but it is clear that only members of the muslim world are qualified discourage such acts...and they don't do it. i don't use that as a reason to say "all muslims are guilty", as i don't believe that....i simply state that i wish they would.

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Well, I don´t believe you. Based on what you wrote I think you secretly asume many if not most Muslims aprove of suicide bombings, I´m basing this on your remarks like "if all muslims..." and the implication that all people who blow up nightclubs are muslims. I think you are trying to hide your politically incorrect opinion behind the unreasonable demand that everybody should report his feelings on everything to you personally. they shouldn´t have to. We do not need to speak out against lone fanatics breaking laws, generally people agree with the law, otherwise it wouldn´t be there (excpetions excluded).

well, many (by my book) muslims do approve of suicide bombings...it would be ignorant to assume otherwise (as even by the most conservative estimate at least hundredes of muslims have been directly part of suicide bomb attacks in encouraging, building bomb vests, planning, and actually carrying them out), and that would be just in israel (never mind iraq). is hundreds not many? i don't believe i said "if all muslims..." at all (at least a text search doesn't show it). what i said was:

...and i do wish. do you think it's good that they don't? do you wish they would support suicide bombing more strongly? if you believe that blowing oneself up in a nightclub is a wrong thing to do, then i don't see how you could "wish" otherwise.
not all people who blow up nightclubs are muslim, but do you really deny that that organized suicide bombing of civilians in public places is a specific example of a tool being used by radical muslim fundamentalsts?
i dunno, i don't think it's unreasonable to expect government and religious leaders to condemn things done in their names...nor for individuals and groups.

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As a side note, I´m curious, are you a christian?

no, i'm not. stereotyping me won't be that easy. i will say that i did (with my girlfriend) fund and organize a benefit for the victims of the bali nightclub bombing, cook food for 100, rent a church, and present 9 bands in 9 hours with (besides the talent) very little outside help....this is not a "some of my best friends are muslim" statement, but an example of how i apply my time, money and art. i don't enjoy being called a racist, but you are welcom to believe i am if it makes you feel better.

as far as the artistic community goes, i am (presumably) a member of that group. i see the message coming from the group conflicting with my own opinions, and i stand up and say something about it...and i even criticize all of the individual members of that group. this is how dialouge comes about, and how compromise and truth are found. if you really can present some evidence that there are even small pockets of artists who are critical of kurtz, and don't feel he has been unfairly treated, i would be suprised.

I see Deknow's point and I too wish more artists and Muslims would speak up too. But also, there is a danger in making generalizations about "artists" and "muslims" in general. (I know at least one Muslim who is affraid to speak up, maybe for good reason. I don't condemn her. Maybe fear is a strong motivator in this case.)

Fact is, some artists do not support of the CAE. Some of us here in fact. Some artists support the CAE. Most artists I suspect don't like to condemn anyone (artists or not). Maybe that's why they don't show up on Google.

Fact is, some "high profile Muslims" have spoken up about terrorism being wrong. Some haven't spoken out.

We can lament that others have not spoken up or speak up on the wrong side, or whatever. As we can see here, sometimes this can be counter productive. The only thing we can do with integrity is speak up for ourselves and take personal responsibility.

We can disagree and argue, but let's not loose respect for each other as human beings. Some of us just had a great experience at electro-music 2005. The spirt of respect and generosity there was uplifting. Let's try to keep that spirit here on the forum._________________--Howard
my music and other stuff

Then so will I. Please notify me if I skip something you felt merrited more atention in the process.

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well, i can only speak from my own experience...which includes following this case quite closely as it unfolded and talking to a lot of people online and in person. there have been numerous benefits and calls to action on kurtz's behalf and support by artist communties all over the world.

Hmmm, I didn´t notice this myself but it´s possible.

I would suspect that this would be artists who would also belong to the section of the left wing that´s opposed to the patriot act and that they would be speaking from a political perspective instead of from a artistic one.

Realy, to me this "work" seems more like politics along the anarchistic lines, exectured with some creativity then like a real artistic work but the lines blur with political art.

Personally I think it´s neither beautifull artistically nor the sensible on a political level.

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the media coverage has been one sided (and almost all of it completely based on cae press releases).

I fear this has more to do with the lazy journalists that copy press releases then with actual believes, we discussed this topic a short while ago.

As for the rest of your paragraph; I´ll do a google or two myself just for kicks. Still, I think the way media works slants the statistics. To compare; the people who feel other races are inferior tend to make pages proclaiming this while those who don´t hold that view tend to think their opinion is self-evident and make pages on different subjects.

ummm, thats giving artists a lot of credit for nothing but calling themselves an artist, isn't it? "careful thought" of an individual does not necesarily lead one to the truth or a good outcome, and is not necessarlily sound thinking.

True. I was thinking about the word "artist" more in the sense of "somebody who creates art" then in the sense of selfproclaimed artists. Many of the latter will actively deny being a artist, when asked I often call myself a engineer instead, for example.

Your thoughts on thought hold a lot of truth, but even if these people don´t arrive at something worthwhile, the inclination to think deeper and along less usual lines should at least make artists less inclined to follow the dogma of their time and culture. Frankly, I have a hard time calling people who don´t do this "artistic" myself.

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myself, i don't think that "everything out the ordinary is terrorism", but i do think that publishing step by step instructions for creating panic in the general population (and encouraging people to follow them) is at least inciting terrorism. have you read what the cae advocates?

Yes, I read it. To me it sounded like a more millitant version of Hakim Bey, aplied to politics instead of art. I read it more like a reflection on our times and culture then as a actual manual to be caried out.

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outside of this discussion here, every artist i've discussed this with (or seen a posting from) supports kurtz blindly. a google search on '"steve kurtz" benefit cae' results in 760 results, almost all announcements of fundraisers for kurtz's defense. i challenge you to find 3 opinions from (self described) artists who are at all critical of kurtz in the wake of this case. google doesn't have all the answers for sure, but if there was criticism of kurtz from the artisitc communtiy, i believe i would be able to find it.

well, many suicide bombers leave notes or videos. most in israel and iraq have had a group claim responsibility for the attack (islamic jihad, hamas, al asqua martyr brigades). if you really don't think that the common type of suicide bombing we are used to seeing in israel and iraq are young people recruted to serve a cause (and a group), then you might want to do a little more reading.

Yes, but the nature of the conflicts in Israel mean all suicide-bombers there will be muslims. U.S. soldiers, Iraqi policemen and the Israelian army don´t need to resort to that type of tactic (though I do think all of them heavily play on fear, especially the Israelian army isn´t well known for seeing innocense as a important factor when deciding who to shoot or bulldoze). As for the Iraqi ones, I´m not so sure. Iraque isn´t a particularly islamic country at all. Also; those conflicts aren´t religious in nature, even if all sides refer to their respective religion, they are for a large part teritorial. Suicide bombing (and indeed terorism in general) is a tactic favoured by repressed groups that can´t afford conventional warfare and currently it´s most popular amongst the palestinians who are both repressed and have the required fanatics. Of cource opression breeds dogmatism and fanatisism, this is not unique to the Islam. For example, the Vietnamese resistance used the same tactic agains the French (I think) and U.S. opression (I´m sure) of their country. Unlike you (below) I would count kamikazes as suicide bombers becaus the strategy and concept of selfsacrefice out of despair and submission to a "greater good" are the same. A quick and rough google told me that the Tamil Tigers also used this tactic. For a long time you could argue that suicde bombing was typical for comunists or asians as well as you can now argue it´s typical for moslims. I think the PKK was (is?) both moslim and comunist at the same time.

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yes, there are many muslims that condem suicide bombings (and other forms of violence), and i suspect it's the majority. but it is certainly not the leaders who do so, and it's not large groups protesting such acts (imho, the institution of such acts are heinous enough that they warrent large scale protests).

In the Netherlands religious leaders of the musim comunity(s) did speak out agains these acts. This was reported on on the national news.

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it would be hard to "blame me" for agent orange (i wasn't born till 69). as far as the "tortures in iraq", you will note that there is plenty of criticism FROM US CITIZENS (both organized, individual, welfare mother and industry leader) in public, in protests, in the media, and person to person (and door to door). this is quite differant than the "anti suicide bomber movement" that we don't see.

I know, I wasn´t blaming you, but you are "a American" and so you are a member of that group. Had I not traveled in the U.S. and coresponded with a fair amount of U.S. citicens I´m not sure I would´ve known about the large amount of disagreement within the U.S.. If I would get all of my news from mainstream media I might well believe nearly all U.S. citicens to support these events (well, the current ones, the Vietnam protests are well known over here).

See what I´m gettin at?

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i personally don't feel that the "tortures" in iraq (as we have seen thus far) are worse than those commited by the former regiem, and am pretty confident that iraq will be a better place to live as a result of getting rid of saddam, uday, and kusay (who commited unspeakable numbers of tortures and murders only on their whim, with no repercussions).

But (and we are side-tracking here) isn´t that horrible? I would hope that a "libiration" wouldn´t have to be justified along the lines of "the tortures aren´t worse and the end result will be better". To me torture in the name of liberty and democracy is a hard sell. These are the supposed bringers of freedom to the repressed people of Iraqe and we have to justify their actions by saying there aren´t worse then those of the former dictator? I feel this is a disgrace and deeply embaracing.

You say there were "no repercussions", well, I fear there will be little or non repercussions for the U.S. soldiers who engaged in their own brand of unspeakable numbers of tortures and murders only on their whim. I feel they should be tried at the international court, but did you know that the U.S. threatened to invade (yes, invade!!!!) The Hague if U.S. soldiers would have to apear before the international court here?

If you want to talk about political art; we had our own milita for a while; leftwing artists (or activists with a sense of humour) were patroling the Scheveningen beach and throwing up sandbag fortifications. I thought that was hillarious, for a while I corresponded with one after she showed up at our local board.

sorry for this disgression, I promissed to try and be brief but I needed to note this and, well, our own militia was worth a disgression because it was so funny.

Let´s not go there, at least not now. My views are different but I hope for democracy (a real one; I think Sadam was elected) will arive as a side effect and you trust it will as the prime aim and that´s close enough for me now.

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all that said, feel free to lay the blame of the tortures of iraq at my (and other supporters of this war) feet....but i implore you not to forget the role of the un oil for food, the "oil contracts" from germany and france that helped finance saddam's dictatorship, the 5000 people killed.....(etc)

Yes. All true.

U.S. forgein policy is horrible and we all know who they learned from. Europe is second to few in terms of cruelty. The Egyptians and the Romans realy have nothing on the Dutch in regard to bad treatments of slaves.

Those three L.A. policemen we all saw on the video would doubtlessly have fit right in with the Dutch.

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i can, however, look at a many year history of suicide bombing in israel by muslims, and see that the lebonese government allows hamas who often take public responsibility for suicide bombings being given a safe haven in lebanon. i can see saddam gave substantial money to the families of suicide bombers in israel, i can see almost universal support of hezbola, hamas and other groups that publicly claim to be responsible for suicide bombings.

I realy feel I should point out here that Sadam needed the support from his neigbours but that he wasn´t at all that Islamitical, in fact pre-current-mess Iraq was fairly western and somewhat alienated from the region due to dealing a lot with the U.S. who saw him as a ally in the 80´s, back when that other country was bad. We (the western world) were quite enthousiastic about this idea of killing the kurds, we sponsored it liberally.

[snip lots of stuff either adressed elsewhere or self evident for space.]

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is hundreds not many? i don't believe i said "if all muslims..." at all (at least a text search doesn't show it).

No, not in this context.
It would be equally true to say almost anything about any religion, for example many christians actively engage in voodoo is true if "hunderds" counts but that´s hardly saying something meaningfull about that religion.

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do you think it's good that they don't? do you wish they would support suicide bombing more strongly? if you believe that blowing oneself up in a nightclub is a wrong thing to do, then i don't see how you could "wish" otherwise.

No, I was quite pleased when the news here reported on comunity leaders judging these things harshly. I think the U.S. news, which I believe to generally be pro-war may not be reporting on this or perhaps U.S. muslims are affraid to draw attention to himself.

I spoke at length with a homosexual U.S. man of asian decend in Seatle who was very cautious about where and how loudly he spoke about his political opinion or sexual preference, fearing violence from more concervatively inclined passers by.

In that climate I can well imagine that certain groups prefer to stay silent prefering to imply concent over the risk of getting beaten up or worse.

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not all people who blow up nightclubs are muslim, but do you really deny that that organized suicide bombing of civilians in public places is a specific example of a tool being used by radical muslim fundamentalsts?

No, I don´t, I just don´t think the reverse holds true too.

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no, i'm not. stereotyping me won't be that easy. i will say that i did (with my girlfriend) fund and organize a benefit for the victims of the bali nightclub bombing, cook food for 100, rent a church, and present 9 bands in 9 hours with (besides the talent) very little outside help....this is not a "some of my best friends are muslim" statement, but an example of how i apply my time, money and art. i don't enjoy being called a racist, but you are welcom to believe i am if it makes you feel better.

I was just wondering. I never spoke to people who held the views I thought you held and was curious. I think that some muslims, as well as some christians see the current situation as a religious war. Some prominent Americans as well as high ranked soldiers did imply this, as did -of cource- Bin Laden.

The idea of this situation escalating into a more religion-based more global conflict scares me. Perhaps it is unjustified but I fear many of the people involved with it sideways see it that way. Call me paranoid but I shaved off my beard before going through U.S. customs, as did Bunker label-boss Guy.

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this is how dialouge comes about, and how compromise and truth are found.

But (and we are side-tracking here) isn´t that horrible? I would hope that a "libiration" wouldn´t have to be justified along the lines of "the tortures aren´t worse and the end result will be better". To me torture in the name of liberty and democracy is a hard sell. These are the supposed bringers of freedom to the repressed people of Iraqe and we have to justify their actions by saying there aren´t worse then those of the former dictator? I feel this is a disgrace and deeply embaracing.

yes, it is horrible and embarasing. i do think the tortures are "better" (no electric shocks to the testicles, no collecting and raping of women at will, no surgicly removing hands, no mass graves). i don't really give creedence to the idea that being naked in front of each other or "desicrating the koran" is horrible...it might be uncomfortable, distressing, embarasing, shameful....but people recover from that. torah's and synagogs being burned by nazi's isn't nearly as upsetting to me as the killing (although it does bring a tear to my eye).

is there a better way? i hope so...and i hope we find it one day. in the case of iraq, there was no clean way to do it, and no one but the us (and those that followed the us...none of them would have acted on their own) was willing to take responsibility. a surgery for gangreen might involve cutting of a limb, but it doesn't mean not cutting off the limb is going to lead to happier results. yes, it's all a mess, but at least it's moving towards a democracy rather than uday and kusay fighting to the death when saddam died to see who gets to be the next dictator.

yes, us soldiers will commit atrocites...but so do un peackeepers, nato, ... and just about any military force i can imagine. it's human nature (sadly), and i don't know how to do it better.

you will see us soldiers tried in us military courts...and this is the fundimental differance between the atrocites of the troops and those of the bath regiem. it's not perfect, but it's (imho) better than doing nothing.

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It would be equally true to say almost anything about any religion, for example many christians actively engage in voodoo is true if "hunderds" counts but that´s hardly saying something meaningfull about that religion.

i used hundreds very conservatively...unless you assume that most of those contributing money, materials, information, inspirational talks, education really don't know they are supporting suicide bombers, we are talking many thousands. ...but even if "hundreds" of christians engage in voodoo by killing people on the bus, that would be many. we are talking about killing random people (often palestinians and iraqi's), not poking a doll (my apolgies to any voodoo practitioner that finds that offensive).

Terror as means to convince a Japan to simply give in was the main reasoning behind the destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Shit like this tend to happen. However, none of these shitty incidents were pranks. And these events and others determine the context.

That´s not true. The U.S. had decoded the Japanese comunications for quite a while at that point and knew what conditions of surrender would be accepted, the war could have ended earlier but they intentionally created the situation to drop the bomb. It was a message of terror all right (and one that makes sept 11 look like a firecracker), but not directed at Japan who had already lost (and knew it); it was directed at Russia as a warning. It was also claimed that the U.S. had no idea how powerfull the bomb actually was, that´s not true either; the trinity test site had shown this already, they knew what they were doing; they were intentionally using the death of all those people as a message to Moscow.

Of cource it´s only "terrorism" if you lose the war. Had the Russians won then there probably would have been much more attention for this horrible act, the U.S. concentration camps and the eugenics movement which was a big inspiration for Hitler (many prominent Americans were proud members of the Nazi party before the war too).

What they also do not tell you in the history lessons is that the alies, after liberating the concentration camps threw the homosexuals that were in there straight into jail instead of releasing them because they completely agreed with the nazi´s on that front.

There realy are no "good guys" in there, only people with better advertising agencies._________________Kassen

That´s not true. The U.S. had decoded the Japanese comunications for quite a while at that point and knew what conditions of surrender would be accepted, the war could have ended earlier but they intentionally created the situation to drop the bomb. It was a message of terror all right (and one that makes sept 11 look like a firecracker), but not directed at Japan who had already lost (and knew it); it was directed at Russia as a warning. It was also claimed that the U.S. had no idea how powerfull the bomb actually was, that´s not true either; the trinity test site had shown this already, they knew what they were doing; they were intentionally using the death of all those people as a message to Moscow.

I am aware of this. I simply did not want to take that route. However, while we are at it, sources seems to indicate that pretty much the same reasoning was behind keeping up the area bombing and hitting cities like Dresden. It can be argued that if the tactics of area bombing is to be considered valid practice, then taking out Dresden would of course be quite OK. As such Dresden had been at least for the period 1940-1944 been as valid a target as any other german city. However, there was a dire need for showing that the Allieds still were on the scene and cold be reckoned with. Stalin was a real threat.

Kassen wrote:

Of cource it´s only "terrorism" if you lose the war. Had the Russians won then there probably would have been much more attention for this horrible act, the U.S. concentration camps and the eugenics movement which was a big inspiration for Hitler (many prominent Americans were proud members of the Nazi party before the war too).

Indeed. This is quite true. It can be just as interesting and possible more enlightening to look into these complex issues rather than focusing on these muslims with bombs attached to their bodies.

Kassen wrote:

What they also do not tell you in the history lessons is that the alies, after liberating the concentration camps threw the homosexuals that were in there straight into jail instead of releasing them because they completely agreed with the nazi´s on that front.

This surely happend and more info is coming in on this subject all the time. And they don´t telll you how many german prisoners died in Alied camps after the war. That one is still a pretty closed subject. The Marshall plan was of course an attempt at getting things back to normal, a great effort, but also motivated by the threat of the USSR.

Kassen wrote:

There really are no "good guys" in there, only people with better advertising agencies.

Quite true. And we are still seeing how Turkey is denying that the armenian genocide really happened. And we haven´t really seen a thourough take on what the US and the CIA really were doing in Greece after WW2.

The world is a strange place. When Benito Mussoulini did his great walk to Rome, even well known radical jews joined his "cause". One must not underestimate the allure of "great ideas"._________________A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"

Terror as means to convince a Japan to simply give in was the main reasoning behind the destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Shit like this tend to happen. However, none of these shitty incidents were pranks. And these events and others determine the context.

That´s not true. The U.S. had decoded the Japanese comunications for quite a while at that point and knew what conditions of surrender would be accepted, the war could have ended earlier but they intentionally created the situation to drop the bomb. It was a message of terror all right (and one that makes sept 11 look like a firecracker), but not directed at Japan who had already lost (and knew it); it was directed at Russia as a warning. It was also claimed that the U.S. had no idea how powerfull the bomb actually was, that´s not true either; the trinity test site had shown this already, they knew what they were doing; they were intentionally using the death of all those people as a message to Moscow.

The reason I first didn´t want to take this approach is because the offical take on these events, at least from 1945-1988, is just as disturbing. It is common knowledge that the US broke the japanese codes. It has been known that the US knew about what the japanese would accept. It was common knowledge that Japan was completely broken. The japanese had in the South Pacific Theatre basically attacked US military installations. The ideology behind the nuclear attacks on Japan was the same as what created the strategy of area bombing. Area bombing is a british invention. The US adopted this ideology and scaled it later for the Cold War.
World War 2 was called the last of the good wars. I am fairly convinced there has been no good wars. There may of course be wars worth fighting, but that is another matter altogether. It can be argued that World War 2 was not one huge war at all. The uprising in Warzawa is one example. What could these people do but resist and die or simple die? In such situations we must accept the victim`s subjectivity to be a valid motivation for killing the enemies. If WW2 had ended differently I am sure this had been either erased from the history books or become a great example of terrorism and been used as an explanation for why killing the vermin was called for anyway._________________A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"

When discussing the morality of warfare and terrorism, it is damned hard to keep a clear mind. We wouldn´t really consider seeing a different outcome of WW2. It can however be discussed if the destruction of the normative state, as seen in Germany pre-1939, in Italy and Spain.. as well as in Russia, also happened in most other countries at the time. I see this as a complete diffusion of morality and responsibility. This simply happened.
However, against this backdrop one really understands why Gandhi decided to do things differently._________________A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"

Ehm, anyway, this frightens me more than terrorism (as terrorism is just one of the things to help go into fever, no matter how fearfull it is in itself). But as terrorism is a dangerous thing to toy with it should be de-escalated whenever possible.

Indeed Jan, that is a nice image of how this works. A fever. A sudden infection.

yes, I think Ghandi should be remembered. At that time the only sensibly thing would be to burn a city or something like in order to make a point. Ghandi truly changed all that. However, I am seeing that Ghandi is being edited out of school books. One interesting thing is that popular history books 1955-1985 ( I have checked a few hundred of those.. I have a checklist that I am using ) never really explains why his rebellion was needed. Ghandi is portrayed as an unorthodox politician and little effort goes into showing what was going on in India at the time. "The cosy brits loved the nice old fart, so they let him have it all" _________________A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"

Good point.
In the case of terrorism, it all depends on definitions. The Baader-Meinhof fun in Europe ended mainly due to getting these people behind bars. One might spend some time looking into of these people really were terrorists like what we see today.
However, why do people kill for such causes?
http://www.thinkingpeace.com/Lib/lib047.html_________________A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"

Indeed. This is quite true. It can be just as interesting and possible more enlightening to look into these complex issues rather than focusing on these muslims with bombs attached to their body.

I agree. The decades since then have made a lot of info surface and of cource the issues are far less loaded now. However, knowledge of these things affect how I look at current issues. Much of my distrust of the official stance of various parties in the current conflict comes from seeing the difference between the info we have now and what was claimed back then.

Of cource the first gulf-war with the fake images on cnn is quite interesting, especially if you compare it to the fake images the nazi´s had on the cinema news; the endless rows of soldiers that never existed and so on.

If I seem paranoid about how quickly the U.S. government figured out who was on those planes; that´s where it comes from. Of cource we need to beware of pure paranoia and wiser would perhaps be realising that we can´t affect current matters anyway and simply wait a few decades.

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It is common knowledge that the US broke the japanese codes. It has been known that the US knew about what the japanese would accept. It was common knowledge that Japan was completely broken. The japanese had in the South Pacific Theatre basically attacked US military installations. The ideology behind the nuclear attacks on Japan was the same as what created the strategy of area bombing. Area bombing is a british invention. The US adopted this ideology and scaled it later for the Cold War.

Well, it´s knowledge that´s available when you look for it. It´s not what I was tought in school and it´s not what the average person on the street believes. I´m not sure about Norway but over here the U.S. and Canadian involvement on the alied side gets blown out of proportion compared to the Russian involvement. Perhaps interesting is that some of my education on this took place during the later days of the cold war....
It´s for example known that much of the resistance in the Netherlands, Belgium (I think) and France (especially) was comming from communist groups, but that wasn´t what was taught to me; it was presented like the resistance was larger then it realy was and the communist element was never mentioned.

It´s also known that the U.S. made good money off selling weapons to the U.K. for the early years, not getting involved themselves but this got presented in my school quite differently.

I got tought that the Dutch army fought for three or so days but not that one of the few elements of the defence that actually worked were the anti-air aramaments that were set up next to factories that the Dutch governent had forced the companies to pay for themselves(!). One great example close to my own home here is the Calve peanutbutter factory in Delft that held out quite long. This got presented to me like some patriotic, selfless battle while the only thing that actually worked were commercial enterpirces defending themselves. I won´t even go into the role of the Dutch royal family.

This is very interesting to me from a social point of view. History seems to change as the present changes. It would be interesting to have a "history of history" book but you have to wonder how well the state would like such a thing, such books would make nearly everybody look quite bad.

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The uprising in Warzawa is one example. What could these people do but resist and die or simple die? In such situations we must accept the victim`s subjectivity to be a valid motivation for killing the enemies. If WW2 had ended differently I am sure this had been either erased from the history books or become a great example of terrorism and been used as an explanation for why killing the vermin was called for anyway.

Good point, I suspect that´s the reasoning of some currently active groups too. Time will tell how they are seen, they´ll probably end up being seen as either bullies or heroes while the majority is quite possibly people who don´t preceive themselves to have a option.

Perhaps most facinting to me is the eugenics movement, particularly Kellogs who had some ideas that were way, way past rediculous yet many of the ideas that the extreme right has can still be traced back to his group.

At least Turning is starting to get public recognition for his role these days, That´s at least something._________________Kassen

It would be interesting to have a "history of history" book but you have to wonder how well the state would like such a thing, such books would make nearly everybody look quite bad.

One could then maybe learn something from history over longer time spans. Rembering, as personal memories, family memories, community memories, now seems to work over let's say up to 70 years, but it should work better to break some long term cycles in society

The government wouldn't realy mind though I guess, it's meta data sort of, "people" would be interested not even a bit I'm afraid - "they" can't even concentrate on a tv program ;-)

This is very interesting to me from a social point of view. History seems to change as the present changes. It would be interesting to have a "history of history" book but you have to wonder how well the state would like such a thing, such books would make nearly everybody look quite bad.

What we do have is Howard Zinn and his books. His angle is mainly US history, but he really digs in and presents what I personally would call a more honest outlook on it.

I guess we are guilty of US bashing now, but I am not intending this discussion to be offensive as such. History is history. I am not completely convinced we can really learn anything from history. Cause and effect is not something one can reuse by looking to history books as a user manual for current situations. History does however, if told honestly, give serious insight into the mess of it all. Perhaps we might become better at identifying similarities and trends. Or not. This is hard to say._________________A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"

Well, it´s knowledge that´s available when you look for it. It´s not what I was tought in school and it´s not what the average person on the street believes. I´m not sure about Norway but over here the U.S. and Canadian involvement on the alied side gets blown out of proportion compared to the Russian involvement.

This is still the case over here too. that said, we do know a real lot about the Russian involvement. And then we have the invasion of Finland.. have you ever seen the finnsish movie "Talvisota"

Over here we have these very unrealistic image of the importance of Norways efforts during WW2. At least the allies did get something out of us. Norwegian seamen died as bait for the german submarines attacking the Murmansk convoys. That is one chapter that really needs a rewrite.

The Battle of Narvik is of course still remembered. What is not really commonly understood is that he main allied task force were soldiers from Poland, french foreign legion and others. And this battle was won. And then the forces were pulled out._________________A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"

I think you can bash some parts of the U.S. like -say- it´s military policy and like others like -say- Scott. I took care to bash the Netherlands too to avoid acusation there.

Fortunately that´s quite easy since we were a pritty active country in the colonial days.

The Finish role in WOII is realy worthy of a seperate thread all by itself, frankly all of Scandinavia is quite interesting with such charming incidents as the allies placing mines in the fjords without consulting the local authorities on wether they actually *wanted* to have explosives installed on their doorstep.

A favourite past-time in The Hague elektro circles at parties is to get beers, then trade anecdotes about the second world war. This quickly alienates almost everybody. Much of it is quite amusing, realy. When it comes down to it a lot of realy, realy silly stuff went on and many of the big players would never have been allowed anywhere near authority in a more reasonable age. Did you know Churchill wrote a book on taking naps? He did. Silly man._________________Kassen

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