I always found this chart interesting:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/45197280/SportsChart.pdf

I don't remember which organization made it, but it was used in an article on bizjournals site some time ago (before the Atlanta hockey team moved to Canada).

It basically shows availability (or lack) of money for sports in US/Canada markets.
It's based on average income in those markets, competing teams, and fairly basic formulas on what % of their income people spend on major league sports.

It's far from perfect (e.g., it doesn't take into account college teams or other entertainment options that may compete with major leagues, or the difference in living costs between markets). But still, the data is interesting.

vnzla81

08-20-2012, 03:25 PM

So why would the Pacers move to Las Vegas if their are smaller than Indiana? :stirthepo

ballism

08-20-2012, 03:41 PM

So why would the Pacers move to Las Vegas if their are smaller than Indiana? :stirthepo

i don't think the Pacers moving was ever a strong possibility.

but re the general idea of an [insert a small market team with no stadium and support] moving there... it's intriguing.
it's not a huge market, but it's very rich for its size (richer than Indianapolis) and it has no major league teams or super college teams. that's the pitch.
obviously that's just part of the story due to all the other entertainment options.

In the end, I suspect the NBA would prefer to let a minor league or a smaller league like MLS try it first and be the 'lab rat'.

BillS

08-20-2012, 03:47 PM

and it has no major league teams or super college teams. that's the pitch.

Well, there's UNLV, but they haven't been much of a powerhouse recently...

Heisenberg

08-20-2012, 04:02 PM

Well, there's UNLV, but they haven't been much of a powerhouse recently...

UNLV's going to be pretty good this year, in mens hoops anyway. Not Johnson/Augmon/Anthony, but they're on the way back. Still, while never being to Vegas, I always got the impression they became a big deal out west in the early 90s basically because there isn't a lot of other options sports wise and it was a style over substance thing for most as opposed to any deep seeded tie to the school.

MTM

08-20-2012, 04:40 PM

I was in Vegas (# 40 on the list) over the weekend and ran into a guy who appeared to be knowledgeable (but in Vegas, appearances can be deceiving) about their city's strong push to lure either NHL and/or NBA teams, based on their ability to draw large vendor/sponsor revenues from hotels and casinos. Apparently the NBA has suggested that if sponsor revenue can be guaranteed, Vegas would have an inside track for any re-location. He also suggested their metro market was well over 1 million, despite the smaller number for their Vegas market. Apparently there will be talk soon about a stadium being built. He suggested that Sacramento (# 20) is being targeted as the team.

If that happened, add that to the list of places Athletes would flock instead of Indy (whereas Sacramento is not currently that much of an issue).

Bball

08-20-2012, 04:55 PM

Vegas might be interesting in that they might be able to fill the arena, albeit it might be tourists doing it. OTOH, the team would be competing with a lot of other entertainment options and I think the NBA might learn that their business model doesn't exactly make them 'can't miss' viewing when multiple other options exist. But that is just my opinion.

So IMO it could backfire entirely with tourists not giving a dayum about the NBA versus other options and locals not being star struck at all with NBA entertainment and star power when you consider they live around that kind of thing daily and aren't an absolutely HUGE market like LA or NY.

Then the next thing to consider is TV.... What would the TV ratings be like in Vegas, especially once the honeymoon was over?

ilive4sports

08-20-2012, 04:58 PM

I was in Vegas (# 40 on the list) over the weekend and ran into a guy who appeared to be knowledgeable (but in Vegas, appearances can be deceiving) about their city's strong push to lure either NHL and/or NBA teams, based on their ability to draw large vendor/sponsor revenues from hotels and casinos. Apparently the NBA has suggested that if sponsor revenue can be guaranteed, Vegas would have an inside track for any re-location. He also suggested their metro market was well over 1 million, despite the smaller number for their Vegas market. Apparently there will be talk soon about a stadium being built. He suggested that Sacramento (# 20) is being targeted as the team.

If that happened, add that to the list of places Athletes would flock instead of Indy (whereas Sacramento is not currently that much of an issue).
I honestly believe that the Maloofs have been difficult about this new arena in Sacramento because of Vegas. They love Vegas and I think most people know that they want to be there.

Eleazar

08-20-2012, 05:32 PM

I don't know about you guys but I was surprised to see Ft Wayne is smaller than both South Bend and Evansville.

Bball

08-20-2012, 06:59 PM

I don't know about you guys but I was surprised to see Ft Wayne is smaller than both South Bend and Evansville.

I'm surprised Ft Wayne hasn't been bulldozed over and erased from the history books... but that might just be me... ;)

Eleazar

08-20-2012, 09:16 PM

I'm surprised Ft Wayne hasn't been bulldozed over and erased from the history books... but that might just be me... ;)

Haha, I don't care either way, just know that Ft. Wayne is the second largest city in Indiana and is bigger than Evansville and South Bend combined.

docpaul

08-20-2012, 11:11 PM

I find these numbers and groupings odd... as they don't bundle metropolitan areas together in some cases, and they do in others. For example, Fort Myers, FL and Naples, FL are bundled together in a single number despite being close to 60 min apart... But the Indy calculation doesn't account for the MSA...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indianapolis_metropolitan_area

Per these data, Indy MSA is >2,000,000

Peck

08-20-2012, 11:34 PM

I find these numbers and groupings odd... as they don't bundle metropolitan areas together in some cases, and they do in others. For example, Fort Myers, FL and Naples, FL are bundled together in a single number despite being close to 60 min apart... But the Indy calculation doesn't account for the MSA...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indianapolis_metropolitan_area

Per these data, Indy MSA is >2,000,000

Exactly what I was wondering. Orlando & Melbourne are almost 70 miles from one another if that is the case then Indianapolis should be able to include Anderson, Lafayette, Shelbyville and everything in between but for whatever reason it doesn't work like that.

Unclebuck

08-21-2012, 08:37 AM

OK, I always thought that TV market size refered to number of homes in the local TV market. IN other words if you live in Columbus Indiana and you get the Indianapolis local TV stations than you are within the Indianapolis TV market. And I still think that is the case. Remember the numbers listed above are TV homes. Meaning a family of 7 just counts as 1 TV home. Although I'm not sure that makes sense either

Maybe it gets difficult when certain cities/tiwns get more than 1 set of local TV stations.

I know for example Angola, Indiana gets Fort Wayne Stations, but also Kalamazoo, Lansing and maybe a couple more. I know South Bend has there own local TV market, but as you move closer to Chicago when does it become the Chicago market? So maybe if you live in a city that gets more than 1 set of local stations you aren't counted?

Major Cold

08-21-2012, 09:13 AM

Haha, I don't care either way, just know that Ft. Wayne is the second largest city in Indiana and is bigger than Evansville and South Bend combined.

Besides the Zoo, Tincaps, Komets, Mad Ants, and IPFW there isn't much. Couple of bars (if you are into that) and gentleman establishments (if you are into that). Really the biggest part of the city are the hospitals.

docpaul

08-21-2012, 10:47 AM

OK, I always thought that TV market size refered to number of homes in the local TV market. IN other words if you live in Columbus Indiana and you get the Indianapolis local TV stations than you are within the Indianapolis TV market. And I still think that is the case. Remember the numbers listed above are TV homes. Meaning a family of 7 just counts as 1 TV home. Although I'm not sure that makes sense either

Maybe it gets difficult when certain cities/tiwns get more than 1 set of local TV stations.

I know for example Angola, Indiana gets Fort Wayne Stations, but also Kalamazoo, Lansing and maybe a couple more. I know South Bend has there own local TV market, but as you move closer to Chicago when does it become the Chicago market? So maybe if you live in a city that gets more than 1 set of local stations you aren't counted?

Ah, you've made the key observation: TV homes do not equal individuals... I would presume that the 1.1 million TV homes refer to 3-4 million people. So it is likely largely the broader MSA, which includes Carmel, Noblesville, Fishers, etc etc.

gummy

08-21-2012, 07:49 PM

Besides the Zoo, Tincaps, Komets, Mad Ants, and IPFW there isn't much. Couple of bars (if you are into that) and gentleman establishments (if you are into that). Really the biggest part of the city are the hospitals.

Nah. Sometimes you have to dig a bit but there is more than that to be had, and it really just depends on what you want. For example, there are some nice art galleries/museums, a movie theater that shows independent films, a small local band scene, the botanical garden, and the central library is pretty nice (one of the largest genealogy collections in the country, among other things) for a city of that size. Having just gone back last month I was struck by how much more vibrant the place seems than it was when I grew up there in the 80s. People still ***** about there being nothing to do, but then they don't really look much either, as if they expect entertainment to just smack them in the face. That doesn't really happen unless you live somewhere like NYC, LA or Chicago.

Eleazar

08-21-2012, 08:01 PM

Nah. Sometimes you have to dig a bit but there is more than that to be had, and it really just depends on what you want. For example, there are some nice art galleries/museums, a movie theater that shows independent films, a small local band scene, the botanical garden, and the central library is pretty nice (one of the largest genealogy collections in the country, among other things) for a city of that size. Having just gone back last month I was struck by how much more vibrant the place seems than it was when I grew up there in the 80s. People still ***** about there being nothing to do, but then they don't really look much either, as if they expect entertainment to just smack them in the face. That doesn't really happen unless you live somewhere like NYC, LA or Chicago.

I am pretty sure everyone outside of NYC, LA, Chicago, and LV complain about there never being anything to do in their town/city.