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Considering how effective the "Sleep" type spells seem to be in EGS, I really wonder why the Magus types even bother with the flashy fighting magic.

Now how long will it take Arthur to realize that the three humans he just knocked out are not the bad guys?
It will probably go better for them if Kevin doesn't say anything at this point...
But who am I kidding? A Federal case involving a paranormal threat? This is exactly the place Kevin can make life more difficult for everyone.

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Under many circumstances, shooting "sleep" first and asking questions later would be the safest action to take. Unfortunately, in this case it leaves no one to tell Arthur that the real culprit is getting away (except Kevin, who probably doesn't know enough about the situation to explain that much, and also is probably going to be less likely to be believed than a human being).

The spell also wouldn't have helped much if the Golem were still active, and isn't going to help with any other active and dangerous artifacts either.

Incidentally, with Elliot, Ellen, and Ashley's adventures in the Warehouse presumably over, I wonder if we're even going to find out what the core of the Diamond was in this story?

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And surprising, considering he's both not field operative AND seer (therefore not having own spells). I suppose he used that ring to cast it.

And yes, he managed to put Elliot and Ellen into sleep. Who were predicting Magus wouldn't be able to use his calm spell on Ellen?

On 5/18/2018 at 1:59 PM, The Old Hack said:

It's all moot. Those who see Magus as an unbeatable demigod will merely invent reasons why Ellen will be automatically flattened anyway. If they are that much in love with their own headcanon, they can keep it. I personally just don't believe it.

At this point, I would consider canon that Magus doesn't need to be an unbeatable demigod to flatten Ellen.

Wait ... what was Ellen going to say? Elliot was going to say it's Arthur, he knows him from TV, but what Ellen?

38 minutes ago, partner555 said:

1 hour ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

Considering how effective the "Sleep" type spells seem to be in EGS, I really wonder why the Magus types even bother with the flashy fighting magic.

Magic resistance could render Sleep spells ineffective.

I though Ellen has quite high magic resistance. Maybe they COULD put even Magus into sleep if he wouldn't be out of range already.

Of course, no surprise Ashley is sleeping again. She will have problems sleeping in night after sleeping so much over the day ...

1 hour ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

Now how long will it take Arthur to realize that the three humans he just knocked out are not the bad guys?

I don't think they would be suspect. They have detailed files on them AND they didn't even raised the alarm obviously.

1 hour ago, ChronosCat said:

Under many circumstances, shooting "sleep" first and asking questions later would be the safest action to take. Unfortunately, in this case it leaves no one to tell Arthur that the real culprit is getting away (except Kevin, who probably doesn't know enough about the situation to explain that much, and also is probably going to be less likely to be believed than a human being).

He doesn't need them awake for that. "Is that Elliot? And Ellen. Of course. Where is the dewitchery diamond? Right. Quick, there must be another copy of those two getting away!"

1 hour ago, ChronosCat said:

Incidentally, with Elliot, Ellen, and Ashley's adventures in the Warehouse presumably over, I wonder if we're even going to find out what the core of the Diamond was in this story?

I wonder if THEY ever find out. It's also possible that will be information just for us (and Arthur).

1 hour ago, ChronosCat said:

The spell also wouldn't have helped much if the Golem were still active, and isn't going to help with any other active and dangerous artifacts either.

I wonder if the real reason he entered casting sleep wasn't exactly to disable any human present so they can safely start shooting anything which is still standing.

1 hour ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

It will probably go better for them if Kevin doesn't say anything at this point...

Still wonder how will Kevin manage to stay with Ashley. Not saying anything might be big part of that. That and quickly hiding inside her clothes, they may forgot to search her.

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At this point, I would consider canon that Magus doesn't need to be an unbeatable demigod to flatten Ellen.

Arthur is a wizard of high age. We already know that you get stronger with magic the more you use it. Are you seriously insisting that Magus after his junior high school magic classes is the equal of a wizard who may have half a century of experience behind him? You have got to be joking. You really must think he is a demigod if you think he can be that good after so short a time...

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And surprising, considering he's both not field operative AND seer (therefore not having own spells). I suppose he used that ring to cast it.

And yes, he managed to put Elliot and Ellen into sleep. Who were predicting Magus wouldn't be able to use his calm spell on Ellen?

Before he knew Seers were a thing, he thought he was a "wizard with a quirk". I think it's safe to say that he long ago decked himself out in all sorts of wand-like devices to enable him to cast an arsenal of spells.

I don't think what Arthur can do is of any meaningful use in assessing what Magus might be able to do. Arthur is a seer. One established trait of seers is that they have enormous amounts of magic energy that they can put into the spells they cast (via wands), to the point that it had Pandora going on about Tedd having the power to bend worlds - plural - to his will. A seer being able to overwhelm someone's magic resistance doesn't really say anything about how anyone other than a seer might do.

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And surprising, considering he's both not field operative AND seer (therefore not having own spells). I suppose he used that ring to cast it.

And yes, he managed to put Elliot and Ellen into sleep. Who were predicting Magus wouldn't be able to use his calm spell on Ellen?

Before he knew Seers were a thing, he thought he was a "wizard with a quirk". I think it's safe to say that he long ago decked himself out in all sorts of wand-like devices to enable him to cast an arsenal of spells.

I don't think what Arthur can do is of any meaningful use in assessing what Magus might be able to do. Arthur is a seer. One established trait of seers is that they have enormous amounts of magic energy that they can put into the spells they cast (via wands), to the point that it had Pandora going on about Tedd having the power to bend worlds - plural - to his will. A seer being able to overwhelm someone's magic resistance doesn't really say anything about how anyone other than a seer might do.

Good point. If Arthur is using that "power to bend worlds" here he would be definitely more powerful than Magus ... also, it might explain why is Terra usually beating Magus. Assuming she's also seer of course.

43 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

Arthur is a wizard of high age. We already know that you get stronger with magic the more you use it. Are you seriously insisting that Magus after his junior high school magic classes is the equal of a wizard who may have half a century of experience behind him?

... unlike just age, which may not prove that much, giving that Magus can easily have better training. Yes, after junior high BATTLE MAGIC school. Or not, of course ... we don't know much about what training Arthur got. It was just speculation that he was jealous of Edward and Noriko being trained by Adrian.

Unlike liberal art schools in our universe, battle magic school is teaching something which can be measured and I'm sure they wouldn't bother with school which is worse than being self-taught. So, Magus's claim of being better than Nanase is believable and he may even be better than older magic users with worse training in EGS universe. Hawk to mice, as Pandora said, comparing Magus to Edward and agent Wolf ...

43 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

You really must think he is a demigod if you think he can be that good after so short a time...

You really like to accuse me of stuff like this.

However, I refuse to submit to your trick and I repeat that it's obvious he doesn't need to be demigod. Nor the seers are demigods - at least, they were not described that way, although you can say that any son of Zeus (formerly known as Jerry) could claim the title of demigod ...

And I still refuse to submit to yours. You responded to my statement that I could perfectly understand why Ellen would want to hit Magus with a playpen-esque claim of "BUT MAGUS FLATTEN ELLEN WITHOUT TROUBLE NAAA NAAA MY DADDY CAN BEAT YOURS". If you don't like me giving you shit back, DON'T GIVE ME SHIT TO START WITH.

And I still refuse to submit to yours. You responded to my statement that I could perfectly understand why Ellen would want to hit Magus with a playpen-esque claim of "BUT MAGUS FLATTEN ELLEN WITHOUT TROUBLE NAAA NAAA MY DADDY CAN BEAT YOURS". If you don't like me giving you shit back, DON'T GIVE ME SHIT TO START WITH.

On 5/18/2018 at 7:38 AM, hkmaly said:

On 5/18/2018 at 6:49 AM, The Old Hack said:

I don't see why not. It's what I would do in her place.

In that case, Magus had good idea to not getting near her. Because I suspect if she would started with that, Magus would do something he would then regret and feel need to atone for.

...

wait. Maybe not. Maybe he would be able to cast the "calm" spell quickly. Which might actually help Ellen in sorting out the emotions. And in not attacking person who have worse angry issues than her AND is actually trained to use magic in fight.

You know, that "suspect" and "maybe" was there for a reason. But if you don't see the difference between that and "BUT MAGUS FLATTEN ELLEN WITHOUT TROUBLE NAAA NAAA MY DADDY CAN BEAT YOURS" ...

Also, Ellen is even better example of being self-taught than Nanase, AND she doesn't even have hereditary talent, although being created by magic may supply one.

Sure, my comparison of their power is speculation, but it is based on something. Magus doesn't need to be that powerful to flatten Ellen because Ellen is not that great. (Despite looking half-dragon for a moment and me liking dragons.)

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Oh yes, I could really tell. That is why you placed it all the way at the head of your construction and had 'Magus do something he would regret' stand completely unqualified. And the 'maybe' then placed in front of ANOTHER construction in which Magus once again automatically takes Ellen out of play. If this was your way of 'moderating' your statements, guess what. It didn't work.

6 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Sure, my comparison of their power is speculation, but it is based on something.

Yes, it is based on the assumption that your fantasies are superior to everybody else's. There was a reason I used the word 'playpen.' Your arguments belong there.

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Sure, my comparison of their power is speculation, but it is based on something.

Yes, it is based on the assumption that your fantasies are superior to everybody else's. There was a reason I used the word 'playpen.' Your arguments belong there.

This is what I refuse to do.

I refuse to stop posting my "fantasies" just because whenever I do, you will accuse me of making them superior to others.

You don't need to agree with them. If you make some argument I overlook, I may even change mind - or, if not that convincing, at least tone it down. I'm not likely to change mind if you ridicule it, in fact, I'm probably going to harden.

With the "real dragon", you convinced me I said it incorrectly. Not this time. In fact, I'm second-guessing if it really was incorrect that time or if you were only one who understood it incorrectly.

If you really want to teach me how to post speculations correctly, do it differently, this is not working.

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Considering how effective the "Sleep" type spells seem to be in EGS, I really wonder why the Magus types even bother with the flashy fighting magic.

7 hours ago, partner555 said:

Magic resistance could render Sleep spells ineffective.

With magic being more abundant in Magus' universe, it would make sense if the people there had higher resistanced as well, either naturally or with the help of magic spells.

4 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Good point. If Arthur is using that "power to bend worlds" here he would be definitely more powerful than Magus ... also, it might explain why is Terra usually beating Magus. Assuming she's also seer of course.

I bet the ring Arthur's wearing might be a kind of wand, it wouldn't surprise me if Arthur too had figured out how to make objects that let him cast spells.

And the reason I believe it's the ring is because someone on discord pointed out that he wasn't wearing the ring when he woke up from the meeting with the WoM.

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Considering how effective the "Sleep" type spells seem to be in EGS, I really wonder why the Magus types even bother with the flashy fighting magic.

Certain creatures might be immune to sleep spells. We already know that Abraham was entirely unconvinced of his ability to put Mr. Raven to sleep. This might include dragons. As to golems, well, lacking brains and the chemical processes that make sleep a necessity to begin with, I doubt sleep spells would affect them very much.

9 hours ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

Now how long will it take Arthur to realize that the three humans he just knocked out are not the bad guys?

About as long as it will take him to check out the hidden cameras they will unquestionably have in a place like that. He may have seemed hair trigger but this had morphed from routine to major emergency; taking out everybody in sight by putting them to sleep and sorting them out later was actually by far not his worst possible move.

9 hours ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

It will probably go better for them if Kevin doesn't say anything at this point...
But who am I kidding? A Federal case involving a paranormal threat? This is exactly the place Kevin can make life more difficult for everyone.

Well, I suspect that is his purpose in existence. Let the poor thing have his day.

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I bet the ring Arthur's wearing might be a kind of wand, it wouldn't surprise me if Arthur too had figured out how to make objects that let him cast spells.

And the reason I believe it's the ring is because someone on discord pointed out that he wasn't wearing the ring when he woke up from the meeting with the WoM.

That's a great observation, thank you for sharing it!

As for Kevin, I could see him sneaking into Ashley's pocket. Or, he might (claim to) be bonded to her in such a way that removing him from her presence or vice versa would be more trouble than it's worth.... What would interest me is whether Arthur will check Ashley to see if she's a wizard, and if so, what the result will be.

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With magic being more abundant in Magus' universe, it would make sense if the people there had higher resistanced as well, either naturally or with the help of magic spells.

Even if same rules would be in effect (which may not be true), their resistance would be higher due to higher exposure. Still, higher than ELLEN?

7 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

Certain creatures might be immune to sleep spells. We already know that Abraham was entirely unconvinced of his ability to put Mr. Raven to sleep. This might include dragons. As to golems, well, lacking brains and the chemical processes that make sleep a necessity to begin with, I doubt sleep spells would affect them very much.

I agree in general but regarding the specific case of Mr. Raven, I think the reason Abraham was unconvinced he can put him to sleep was related to his age and experience, not species. Note he said "The elf", not just elf.

1 hour ago, CritterKeeper said:

9 hours ago, Scotty said:

I bet the ring Arthur's wearing might be a kind of wand, it wouldn't surprise me if Arthur too had figured out how to make objects that let him cast spells.

And the reason I believe it's the ring is because someone on discord pointed out that he wasn't wearing the ring when he woke up from the meeting with the WoM.

That's a great observation, thank you for sharing it!

... I though the ring being wand was given. Wasn't I talking about it being small wand? Oh, wait, that was on tumblr, seems I forgot to copy it here ...

... weird. I though the think expands tumblr. Or was it just twitter? Well ok:

Considering Arthur as a seer doesn’t have any spells, he must be casting that AoE sleep from spell catalyst … and only thing visible which could be spell catalyst is his ring. So, quite small spell catalyst. Must be hard to cast from that …

(I must admit I didn't remembered if he was wearing it before, though ... so, thanks for additional argument.)

7 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

17 hours ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

Now how long will it take Arthur to realize that the three humans he just knocked out are not the bad guys?

About as long as it will take him to check out the hidden cameras they will unquestionably have in a place like that. He may have seemed hair trigger but this had morphed from routine to major emergency; taking out everybody in sight by putting them to sleep and sorting them out later was actually by far not his worst possible move.

1) I think the cameras don't even need to be hidden. Although maybe they are to make the warehouse look even more abandoned.

2) If he was paying attention when reading their files, he may not even need to wait that long. As I already speculated. Although considering the situation, he's likely to look at the cameras anyway. Only problem is it would be too late to catch Magus, but I suspect it would be too late if they told him as well.

2 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

As for Kevin, I could see him sneaking into Ashley's pocket.

The reason I suggested hiding in her clothes was that women generally complain their clothes lack pockets, they don't LOOK as having pockets and Kevin is pretty long for normal pockets anyway. He WOULD however fit into sleeve or just under jacket.

2 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

Or, he might (claim to) be bonded to her in such a way that removing him from her presence or vice versa would be more trouble than it's worth....

He might claim to, but would they believe him?

2 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

What would interest me is whether Arthur will check Ashley to see if she's a wizard, and if so, what the result will be.

Hmmm ... even if Kevin wouldn't specifically talk about Ashley being wizard, almost anything he can say is likely to prompt scanning Ashley. Not speaking about the possibility they will scan all of them as part of verifying what happened. Which means I'm wondering more about if WE will find out the result than if they do it.

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Considering Arthur as a seer doesn’t have any spells, he must be casting that AoE sleep from spell catalyst … and only thing visible which could be spell catalyst is his ring. So, quite small spell catalyst. Must be hard to cast from that …

But Arthur, as a Seer, is a "well of power". So while that ring may be a very small catalyst, Arthur should be able to use it anywhere, while other wizards might only be able to use it in high ambient energy areas or drain their own energy reserves. Dan tweeted as such:

So maybe Arthur's "wizard with a quirk" was refering to the fact that he also figured out how to make catalysts that let him cast spells, but they either only worked for him or they ended up having very limited use by other wizards.

Speculation: Maybe Arthur's being accommodating to Tedd by giving him a lab to research increasing people's resistances because Tedd kinda reminds him of himself when he was younger, trying to figure out magic and such.

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Considering Arthur as a seer doesn’t have any spells, he must be casting that AoE sleep from spell catalyst … and only thing visible which could be spell catalyst is his ring. So, quite small spell catalyst. Must be hard to cast from that …

But Arthur, as a Seer, is a "well of power". So while that ring may be a very small catalyst, Arthur should be able to use it anywhere, while other wizards might only be able to use it in high ambient energy areas or drain their own energy reserves. Dan tweeted as such:

So maybe Arthur's "wizard with a quirk" was refering to the fact that he also figured out how to make catalysts that let him cast spells, but they either only worked for him or they ended up having very limited use by other wizards.

Yes, I was copying what I wrote on tumblr before someone reminded seers being a well of power here. So I am aware that Arthur is able to do that. The question why he is using the ring instead of wand still remains ; even with plenty of power to spare, wouldn't wand be easier?

Note his "Wizard with a quirk" is probably "Wizard except not being able to cast the spells directly and needing to put them to wand instead".

37 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Speculation: Maybe Arthur's being accommodating to Tedd by giving him a lab to research increasing people's resistances because Tedd kinda reminds him of himself when he was younger, trying to figure out magic and such.

This is obviously speculation, but Arthur doesn't look like researcher to me, AND his evaluation of Tedd was missing the option of him doing it; he basically said Tedd is the best researcher available, although it's just best from the three seers he knows of.

Of course, it's possible Tedd reminded him his attempts at research despite him never getting anywhere with that research ; while Tedd found out how to make watches by himself, I think Arthur learned how to make wands by someone telling him how to do it or possibly reading about it. (Or by watching someone making wand, that would presumably also work.)

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This is obviously speculation, but Arthur doesn't look like researcher to me, AND his evaluation of Tedd was missing the option of him doing it; he basically said Tedd is the best researcher available, although it's just best from the three seers he knows of.

No, but Arthur must have done some experimentation with his "quirk", even if it wasn't exactly the same way Tedd did, the results may have been similar.

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This is obviously speculation, but Arthur doesn't look like researcher to me, AND his evaluation of Tedd was missing the option of him doing it; he basically said Tedd is the best researcher available, although it's just best from the three seers he knows of.

No, but Arthur must have done some experimentation with his "quirk", even if it wasn't exactly the same way Tedd did, the results may have been similar.

Hence the "it's possible Tedd reminded him his attempts at research despite him never getting anywhere with that research".

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The question why he is using the ring instead of wand still remains ; even with plenty of power to spare, wouldn't wand be easier?

Simple answer: sometimes he wants to be conspicuously a wizard (e.g. when he went on TV with the complete stereotypical outfit including staff) and sometimes he doesn't - but still wants spellcasting ability, just in case. So he probably ALWAYS has the ring with him, even when he isn't wearing it.

(It's useful for a high-power spellcaster to have an automatic way for his subconscious to know he is NOT casting a spell. That way a casual thought about a campfire won't start a fire. A firmly-set pattern of "I wear and use this ring to cast spells" would work.)