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Topic: So how long has Slavisa realistically got? (Read 8049 times)

But last season teams had learned that to put pressure on us deep meant were hurried and often gave the ball away. This season teams have just followed up on that and we, for some reason have decided that with less able players, to continue playing it out from the back. Now if we continue with this team in playing the same way then the same conclusion will naturally occur.

Our back 5/6 is the same as last year, not “less able players”. Playing out from the back clearly makes fans nervous but it still works as well, if not better, than it did last year. Our new defensive problems occur, for whatever reason, when we do *not* have the ball, not when we do. But in any case the main differences between this year And last year are in attack, not defence. We have less able players up front.

But last season teams had learned that to put pressure on us deep meant were hurried and often gave the ball away. This season teams have just followed up on that and we, for some reason have decided that with less able players, to continue playing it out from the back. Now if we continue with this team in playing the same way then the same conclusion will naturally occur.

Our back 5/6 is the same as last year, not “less able players”. Playing out from the back clearly makes fans nervous but it still works as well, if not better, than it did last year. Our new defensive problems occur, for whatever reason, when we do *not* have the ball, not when we do. But in any case the main differences between this year And last year are in attack, not defence. We have less able players up front.

It's a good debate but.When do we complete the circle and quote the Brentford manager who said they knew how Fulham play and they knew how to stop it by high pressing. Opposition training sessions must be a doddle and will continue to be so whilst we are a one trick donkey, pony, llama or whatever it has evolved into now. I doubt JOka is going to leave a legacy for us to swoon over so he needs to apply some common sense, get that chip off his shoulder and plan match strategies with the materials available.We seem to have the proverbial 'massive' game on a regular basis now but we could be twenty points behind Cardiff come tea time on Saturday.

It may be heresy on this thread to suggest it, but maybe Joka is sticking with certain players and at certain positions because he sees qualities in training we don't, and he figures more time in position will give them the sea legs they need to play to their potential. Fonte was a good player before he arrived at Fulham. That's all I'm sayin'. Bryan Ruiz was and arguably still is the best player on his high flying Costa Rican national team, the straw that stirs the drink. But he was never used properly during his time at Fulham and languished. Give this manager time with his new players and lineup. We're far from done. He'll get it right. Look what we almost accomplished last season. Shall we go back and revisit the posts on this forum back then? People were in ecstasy over how this team played. The talk of the league. Now to read some of the historical revisionism on this thread, such success was purely accidental, accomplishment in spite of the manager. Come on, now.

But last season teams had learned that to put pressure on us deep meant were hurried and often gave the ball away. This season teams have just followed up on that and we, for some reason have decided that with less able players, to continue playing it out from the back. Now if we continue with this team in playing the same way then the same conclusion will naturally occur.

Our back 5/6 is the same as last year, not “less able players”. Playing out from the back clearly makes fans nervous but it still works as well, if not better, than it did last year. Our new defensive problems occur, for whatever reason, when we do *not* have the ball, not when we do. But in any case the main differences between this year And last year are in attack, not defence. We have less able players up front.

It's a good debate but.When do we complete the circle and quote the Brentford manager who said they knew how Fulham play and they knew how to stop it by high pressing. Opposition training sessions must be a doddle and will continue to be so whilst we are a one trick donkey, pony, llama or whatever it has evolved into now. I doubt JOka is going to leave a legacy for us to swoon over so he needs to apply some common sense, get that chip off his shoulder and plan match strategies with the materials available.We seem to have the proverbial 'massive' game on a regular basis now but we could be twenty points behind Cardiff come tea time on Saturday.

Well Dean Smith has left you one side short of a square there

Look at the Brentford goals:

#1 - starts with Brentford winning the ball off Kebano deep in their own half, by the corner flag#2 - starts with Brentford winning a long ball Button has hoofed deep into their half#3 - starts with them winning possession just inside their own half (we have 9 men behind the ball) then a long passage of passes going back to the Brentford goalkeeper

All start deep in the Brentford half. They didn't get anything from pressing us high, just left themselves exposed for the chances we made, which would have been more than enough to win the game had we been sensible/clinical.

But last season teams had learned that to put pressure on us deep meant were hurried and often gave the ball away. This season teams have just followed up on that and we, for some reason have decided that with less able players, to continue playing it out from the back. Now if we continue with this team in playing the same way then the same conclusion will naturally occur.

Our back 5/6 is the same as last year, not “less able players”. Playing out from the back clearly makes fans nervous but it still works as well, if not better, than it did last year. Our new defensive problems occur, for whatever reason, when we do *not* have the ball, not when we do. But in any case the main differences between this year And last year are in attack, not defence. We have less able players up front.

It's a good debate but.When do we complete the circle and quote the Brentford manager who said they knew how Fulham play and they knew how to stop it by high pressing. Opposition training sessions must be a doddle and will continue to be so whilst we are a one trick donkey, pony, llama or whatever it has evolved into now. I doubt JOka is going to leave a legacy for us to swoon over so he needs to apply some common sense, get that chip off his shoulder and plan match strategies with the materials available.We seem to have the proverbial 'massive' game on a regular basis now but we could be twenty points behind Cardiff come tea time on Saturday.

Well Dean Smith has left you one side short of a square there

Look at the Brentford goals:

#1 - starts with Brentford winning the ball off Kebano deep in their own half, by the corner flag#2 - starts with Brentford winning a long ball Button has hoofed deep into their half#3 - comes from a passage of passes starting from the Brentford goalkeeper

All start deep in the Brentford half. They didn't get anything from pressing us high, just left themselves exposed for the chances we made, which would have been more than enough to win the game had we been sensible/clinical.

But Smith would spin it that way because it makes him sound an astute tactician.

But last season teams had learned that to put pressure on us deep meant were hurried and often gave the ball away. This season teams have just followed up on that and we, for some reason have decided that with less able players, to continue playing it out from the back. Now if we continue with this team in playing the same way then the same conclusion will naturally occur.

Our back 5/6 is the same as last year, not “less able players”. Playing out from the back clearly makes fans nervous but it still works as well, if not better, than it did last year. Our new defensive problems occur, for whatever reason, when we do *not* have the ball, not when we do. But in any case the main differences between this year And last year are in attack, not defence. We have less able players up front.

It's a good debate but.When do we complete the circle and quote the Brentford manager who said they knew how Fulham play and they knew how to stop it by high pressing. Opposition training sessions must be a doddle and will continue to be so whilst we are a one trick donkey, pony, llama or whatever it has evolved into now. I doubt JOka is going to leave a legacy for us to swoon over so he needs to apply some common sense, get that chip off his shoulder and plan match strategies with the materials available.We seem to have the proverbial 'massive' game on a regular basis now but we could be twenty points behind Cardiff come tea time on Saturday.

Well Dean Smith has left you one side short of a square there

Look at the Brentford goals:

#1 - starts with Brentford winning the ball off Kebano deep in their own half, by the corner flag#2 - starts with Brentford winning a long ball Button has hoofed deep into their half#3 - starts with Brentford winning a free kick in their own penalty box

All start deep in the Brentford half. They didn't get anything from pressing us high, just left themselves exposed for the chances we made, which would have been more than enough to win the game had we been sensible/clinical.

Even if we took our chances and won, we still would have conceded two goals. My main worry atm isn’t the lack of goals, it’s the defence. Apart from against Millwall I can’t remember our last clean sheet. Improving the defence has to be our main priority

But last season teams had learned that to put pressure on us deep meant were hurried and often gave the ball away. This season teams have just followed up on that and we, for some reason have decided that with less able players, to continue playing it out from the back. Now if we continue with this team in playing the same way then the same conclusion will naturally occur.

Our back 5/6 is the same as last year, not “less able players”. Playing out from the back clearly makes fans nervous but it still works as well, if not better, than it did last year. Our new defensive problems occur, for whatever reason, when we do *not* have the ball, not when we do. But in any case the main differences between this year And last year are in attack, not defence. We have less able players up front.

It's a good debate but.When do we complete the circle and quote the Brentford manager who said they knew how Fulham play and they knew how to stop it by high pressing. Opposition training sessions must be a doddle and will continue to be so whilst we are a one trick donkey, pony, llama or whatever it has evolved into now. I doubt JOka is going to leave a legacy for us to swoon over so he needs to apply some common sense, get that chip off his shoulder and plan match strategies with the materials available.We seem to have the proverbial 'massive' game on a regular basis now but we could be twenty points behind Cardiff come tea time on Saturday.

Well Dean Smith has left you one side short of a square there

Look at the Brentford goals:

#1 - starts with Brentford winning the ball off Kebano deep in their own half, by the corner flag#2 - starts with Brentford winning a long ball Button has hoofed deep into their half#3 - starts with Brentford winning a free kick in their own penalty box

All start deep in the Brentford half. They didn't get anything from pressing us high, just left themselves exposed for the chances we made, which would have been more than enough to win the game had we been sensible/clinical.

Even if we took our chances and won, we still would have conceded two goals. My main worry atm isn’t the lack of goals, it’s the defence. Apart from against Millwall I can’t remember our last clean sheet. Improving the defence has to be our main priority

Agreed our defence is poor but it's nothing to do with getting pressed high and caught out trying to play it out from the back

But last season teams had learned that to put pressure on us deep meant were hurried and often gave the ball away. This season teams have just followed up on that and we, for some reason have decided that with less able players, to continue playing it out from the back. Now if we continue with this team in playing the same way then the same conclusion will naturally occur.

Our back 5/6 is the same as last year, not “less able players”. Playing out from the back clearly makes fans nervous but it still works as well, if not better, than it did last year. Our new defensive problems occur, for whatever reason, when we do *not* have the ball, not when we do. But in any case the main differences between this year And last year are in attack, not defence. We have less able players up front.

It's a good debate but.When do we complete the circle and quote the Brentford manager who said they knew how Fulham play and they knew how to stop it by high pressing. Opposition training sessions must be a doddle and will continue to be so whilst we are a one trick donkey, pony, llama or whatever it has evolved into now. I doubt JOka is going to leave a legacy for us to swoon over so he needs to apply some common sense, get that chip off his shoulder and plan match strategies with the materials available.We seem to have the proverbial 'massive' game on a regular basis now but we could be twenty points behind Cardiff come tea time on Saturday.

Well Dean Smith has left you one side short of a square there

Look at the Brentford goals:

#1 - starts with Brentford winning the ball off Kebano deep in their own half, by the corner flag#2 - starts with Brentford winning a long ball Button has hoofed deep into their half#3 - starts with Brentford winning a free kick in their own penalty box

All start deep in the Brentford half. They didn't get anything from pressing us high, just left themselves exposed for the chances we made, which would have been more than enough to win the game had we been sensible/clinical.

Even if we took our chances and won, we still would have conceded two goals. My main worry atm isn’t the lack of goals, it’s the defence. Apart from against Millwall I can’t remember our last clean sheet. Improving the defence has to be our main priority

Agreed our defence is poor but it's nothing to do with getting pressed high and caught out trying to play it out from the back

Yep I agree. I’m not sure what’s it is. We don’t seem to track people well and are often beaten by counter attacks

But last season teams had learned that to put pressure on us deep meant were hurried and often gave the ball away. This season teams have just followed up on that and we, for some reason have decided that with less able players, to continue playing it out from the back. Now if we continue with this team in playing the same way then the same conclusion will naturally occur.

Our back 5/6 is the same as last year, not “less able players”. Playing out from the back clearly makes fans nervous but it still works as well, if not better, than it did last year. Our new defensive problems occur, for whatever reason, when we do *not* have the ball, not when we do. But in any case the main differences between this year And last year are in attack, not defence. We have less able players up front.

It's a good debate but.When do we complete the circle and quote the Brentford manager who said they knew how Fulham play and they knew how to stop it by high pressing. Opposition training sessions must be a doddle and will continue to be so whilst we are a one trick donkey, pony, llama or whatever it has evolved into now. I doubt JOka is going to leave a legacy for us to swoon over so he needs to apply some common sense, get that chip off his shoulder and plan match strategies with the materials available.We seem to have the proverbial 'massive' game on a regular basis now but we could be twenty points behind Cardiff come tea time on Saturday.

Well Dean Smith has left you one side short of a square there

Look at the Brentford goals:

#1 - starts with Brentford winning the ball off Kebano deep in their own half, by the corner flag#2 - starts with Brentford winning a long ball Button has hoofed deep into their half#3 - starts with Brentford winning a free kick in their own penalty box

All start deep in the Brentford half. They didn't get anything from pressing us high, just left themselves exposed for the chances we made, which would have been more than enough to win the game had we been sensible/clinical.

Even if we took our chances and won, we still would have conceded two goals. My main worry atm isn’t the lack of goals, it’s the defence. Apart from against Millwall I can’t remember our last clean sheet. Improving the defence has to be our main priority

Our last clean sheet prior to Millwall was v Ipswich Town on August 26th if my memory is correct. Of course as you say, the defence is more of a concern, although the forwards need addressing also. But the defence has more problems. The back Division do not play as a unit. There is little balance and no depth, as was highlighted v Brentford with the way they were able to score their goals. We are weak in the air and at set pieces and corners. The players are short in stature and height, and there are no leaders. No communication and nobody to marshal the players. The back four as defenders are the weakest we have had for quite a while. Also to add to our woes the problem with the Goalkeeper situation just magnifies the problems even more. No wonder we rarely keep a clean sheet. On top of that we cannot buy a goal, and when we do score 5 we conceded 4 in the same match just to make it interesting, you couldn’t make it up, it’s all a recipe for disaster and dissapointment. If the club cannot see what the man and his dog in the street can see, then we are in deeper poo than we realise.

But last season teams had learned that to put pressure on us deep meant were hurried and often gave the ball away. This season teams have just followed up on that and we, for some reason have decided that with less able players, to continue playing it out from the back. Now if we continue with this team in playing the same way then the same conclusion will naturally occur.

Our back 5/6 is the same as last year, not “less able players”. Playing out from the back clearly makes fans nervous but it still works as well, if not better, than it did last year. Our new defensive problems occur, for whatever reason, when we do *not* have the ball, not when we do. But in any case the main differences between this year And last year are in attack, not defence. We have less able players up front.

Without Malone and with the players not as comfortable or as in form and giving the ball away more often. Our problem is that we are caught too often bringing the ball out from the back. By doing so we slow the game up, something we didn't do last season as we were quick on the break. Therefore by the time the ball reaches our front players they are well and truly marked out of the game.

But last season teams had learned that to put pressure on us deep meant were hurried and often gave the ball away. This season teams have just followed up on that and we, for some reason have decided that with less able players, to continue playing it out from the back. Now if we continue with this team in playing the same way then the same conclusion will naturally occur.

Our back 5/6 is the same as last year, not “less able players”. Playing out from the back clearly makes fans nervous but it still works as well, if not better, than it did last year. Our new defensive problems occur, for whatever reason, when we do *not* have the ball, not when we do. But in any case the main differences between this year And last year are in attack, not defence. We have less able players up front.

It's a good debate but.When do we complete the circle and quote the Brentford manager who said they knew how Fulham play and they knew how to stop it by high pressing. Opposition training sessions must be a doddle and will continue to be so whilst we are a one trick donkey, pony, llama or whatever it has evolved into now. I doubt JOka is going to leave a legacy for us to swoon over so he needs to apply some common sense, get that chip off his shoulder and plan match strategies with the materials available.We seem to have the proverbial 'massive' game on a regular basis now but we could be twenty points behind Cardiff come tea time on Saturday.

Well Dean Smith has left you one side short of a square there

Look at the Brentford goals:

#1 - starts with Brentford winning the ball off Kebano deep in their own half, by the corner flag#2 - starts with Brentford winning a long ball Button has hoofed deep into their half#3 - starts with them winning possession just inside their own half (we have 9 men behind the ball) then a long passage of passes going back to the Brentford goalkeeper

All start deep in the Brentford half. They didn't get anything from pressing us high, just left themselves exposed for the chances we made, which would have been more than enough to win the game had we been sensible/clinical.

fair analysis of the goals but the quote and my use of it was more in relation to open play and how we are forced to go sideways and backwards, like we don't do it enough already, which puts Button and the back four under more pressure, pressure they just cannot handle. Ultimately you are right in that Brentford did not score from pressing us high up the pitch but the tactic stopped us playing the Joka way. Of course then along came Odoi.

The players playing have to be half way decent in playing that role or tactics. I agree that we simply haven't players throughout the team who are able to play that way. I never say the tactics are wrong if we have players who can play them. My annoyance and frustration is simply down to the fact that we haven't those players.

Players can be trained, taught to play in a particular way. But as we have seen in Button, a player deliberately bought and picked because he is said to be better at distribution. Clearly is struggling and that spreads to his confidence in other aspects of his game.

Ideally we would have replaced or bought the players to push us on. We didn't or those players have failed to live up to their stats and or hype. But by continual use of the same basic tactics we are highlighting our shortcomings and continuing to let in goals from pressure put on us by playing at the back. We are poor at finishing as we were last season. Yes we scored more goals but created far more chances than we are creating now.

Basically do we stick with a failed tactic for the players we have? Do we change tactics and hope our players are good enough? Or do we simply wait until the players, or players brought in in another transfer window can fit the system?

Any criticism aimed at the Coach is that he is a one trick pony. Which is great with the right pony but looks pony when you have a donkey.

Most managers favour a certain way of playing. It's a myth that a good manager can completely adapt their tactics to the playing squad.

Well it's not a myth because it has been done. Our Coach HAS changed some things within in the system. But obviously Managers and Coaches have ways they prefer to play and they organise their players or bring in players to fit it. Just like Sanchez did. Spending lots of money to little affect. But hopefully we have moved on and as we have a system in place that doesn't mean that every time a manager or Coach is sacked the whole team/system needs to be changed. The club needs to bring in the right players but the Coach needs to adapt the system while he waits.

He may have changed the formation or made the odd tweak, but the style has remained the same and that's the case for most managers. Most managers stick to one overall style of play and just make small tweaks.

But last season teams had learned that to put pressure on us deep meant were hurried and often gave the ball away. This season teams have just followed up on that and we, for some reason have decided that with less able players, to continue playing it out from the back. Now if we continue with this team in playing the same way then the same conclusion will naturally occur.

Our back 5/6 is the same as last year, not “less able players”. Playing out from the back clearly makes fans nervous but it still works as well, if not better, than it did last year. Our new defensive problems occur, for whatever reason, when we do *not* have the ball, not when we do. But in any case the main differences between this year And last year are in attack, not defence. We have less able players up front.

Without Malone and with the players not as comfortable or as in form and giving the ball away more often. Our problem is that we are caught too often bringing the ball out from the back. By doing so we slow the game up, something we didn't do last season as we were quick on the break. Therefore by the time the ball reaches our front players they are well and truly marked out of the game.

But most of our goals come from counter attacks made possible by giving the ball away cheaply in mdifield or attack, a similar pattern to last season during our run. The difference is that when you score goals and look like doing so from every attack then opponents are much more inclined to panic in defence and midfield a bit like we did in second half on Saturday. That is also the psychology of the effective press when you have the lead in a game as seen in the Wolves game when they kept us busy by stopping us from playing. If we want a serious comment about the Brentford game it is that we cannot extend or defend a lead even when playing at a reasonable level for the players involved.

Of course we could own up to not having signed good cover for Kalas and Ream at any time in 2017 in our attempts to fill Motspur Park with at least one satisfactory striker and replacement for Aluko. With a decent centre back cover slot in at least we could have Odoi to play left back in the absence of any Malone replacement. The whole thing is about not joining dots up in the DoF office and Khan Jnr and company should go.

Dont actually agree with the idea that our defensive problems are caused by sloppy mistakes in our own half when we are "bringing the ball out from the back . We dont give away goals because we give the ball away in our own half ,or through pressure from other teams as such. Kebanos loss of possession for their first goal illustrates my Point. Ok they won the ball back but it was due to a niave piece of play by kebano which led to us not finishing our attack whilst committing many players forward. The problem was that we were poor in transition to defence with tooo many players caught in attacking mode.Our failure to then re -win the ball back quickly shows a defensive problem we have and for me,and illustrates the main reason that we miss Sone aluko. He was very quick to to try to regain possession when it was lost in the opponents half of the pitch. Johansen is also excellent at this.The combination of slow transition to defense having lost the ball in the opponents half,sloppy use of the final ball ,and a pssiveness when trying to regain possession are the major problems that we have defensively. Cant actually think of any goals conceded this year due to opposition pressure in our own half this season.

But last season teams had learned that to put pressure on us deep meant were hurried and often gave the ball away. This season teams have just followed up on that and we, for some reason have decided that with less able players, to continue playing it out from the back. Now if we continue with this team in playing the same way then the same conclusion will naturally occur.

Our back 5/6 is the same as last year, not “less able players”. Playing out from the back clearly makes fans nervous but it still works as well, if not better, than it did last year. Our new defensive problems occur, for whatever reason, when we do *not* have the ball, not when we do. But in any case the main differences between this year And last year are in attack, not defence. We have less able players up front.

Without Malone and with the players not as comfortable or as in form and giving the ball away more often. Our problem is that we are caught too often bringing the ball out from the back. By doing so we slow the game up, something we didn't do last season as we were quick on the break. Therefore by the time the ball reaches our front players they are well and truly marked out of the game.

Dont actually agree with the idea that our defensive problems are caused by sloppy mistakes in our own half when we are "bringing the ball out from the back . We dont give away goals because we give the ball away in our own half ,or through pressure from other teams as such. Kebanos loss of possession for their first goal illustrates my Point. Ok they won the ball back but it was due to a niave piece of play by kebano which led to us not finishing our attack whilst committing many players forward. The problem was that we were poor in transition to defence with tooo many players caught in attacking mode.Our failure to then re -win the ball back quickly shows a defensive problem we have and for me,and illustrates the main reason that we miss Sone aluko. He was very quick to to try to regain possession when it was lost in the opponents half of the pitch. Johansen is also excellent at this.The combination of slow transition to defense having lost the ball in the opponents half,sloppy use of the final ball ,and a pssiveness when trying to regain possession are the major problems that we have defensively. Cant actually think of any goals conceded this year due to opposition pressure in our own half this season.

But last season teams had learned that to put pressure on us deep meant were hurried and often gave the ball away. This season teams have just followed up on that and we, for some reason have decided that with less able players, to continue playing it out from the back. Now if we continue with this team in playing the same way then the same conclusion will naturally occur.

Our back 5/6 is the same as last year, not “less able players”. Playing out from the back clearly makes fans nervous but it still works as well, if not better, than it did last year. Our new defensive problems occur, for whatever reason, when we do *not* have the ball, not when we do. But in any case the main differences between this year And last year are in attack, not defence. We have less able players up front.

Without Malone and with the players not as comfortable or as in form and giving the ball away more often. Our problem is that we are caught too often bringing the ball out from the back. By doing so we slow the game up, something we didn't do last season as we were quick on the break. Therefore by the time the ball reaches our front players they are well and truly marked out of the game.

Completely agree. Our transition defensively has caused a lot of issues. It's not often we concede from either giving the ball in our own half or from a well orchestrated build up from the other team. The Brentford match, first goal conceded, was a product of Kebano's cross deflecting in their favor, but the problem was we let Watkins run through our entire midfield.

It may be heresy on this thread to suggest it, but maybe Joka is sticking with certain players and at certain positions because he sees qualities in training we don't, and he figures more time in position will give them the sea legs they need to play to their potential. Fonte was a good player before he arrived at Fulham. That's all I'm sayin'. Bryan Ruiz was and arguably still is the best player on his high flying Costa Rican national team, the straw that stirs the drink. But he was never used properly during his time at Fulham and languished. Give this manager time with his new players and lineup. We're far from done. He'll get it right. Look what we almost accomplished last season. Shall we go back and revisit the posts on this forum back then? People were in ecstasy over how this team played. The talk of the league. Now to read some of the historical revisionism on this thread, such success was purely accidental, accomplishment in spite of the manager. Come on, now.

Well said. Some will say it's because they aren't acclimated to the league style, or some will say they aren't proper for Fulham's style of play.

The irony is that noone seems to know Fulham's style right now. Are we a made up collection of foreigners trying to play 4-3-3 attack, but masking it as a 4-5-1? Who knows! Nobody does.

Some would say they know what we want as the style, but noone actually knows what our style is. That could be a credit to a manager who has made things too complicated, even for his own players; or for a stats based system that the manager was forced to customize - who knows. For example, how many teams play with a False-9 out there? If they do...do they put their CM up there? Not that I know of. How many teams opt for an agile, short, smaller frame, perceived striker instead of a big, force of a man that has the perfect reference to an assault rifle?

I think the players are there for Slav, but just like managers before him, he's not putting players in the right positions. If/when he does, the tactics don't match the intent. My hope is that he learns that sooner rather than later, and I hope we see that as soon as Saturday.