On his blog the other day (Christmas Eve, actually), Coyote put up a post on magic/magic items in RPGs. He was “inspired” after browsing through the “Magic Item Compendium” for Dungeons & Dragons.

We all like to find Neat Stuff in the games we play, be they pencil & paper, SP CRPGs, or MMOGs. Part of the fun is coming across, one way or another, a magic item, spell scroll, or whatnot.

Coyote’s main contention is that there is too much of it, that the “magic” of magic items is now more a commodity than a reward. Players expect to find plenty of Neat Stuff, most of which they will sell, while on the lookout for the Really Good Stuff they want to equip.

He traces this back to D&D 3rd ed. on the one hand, and to MMOGs like WoW on the other. Especially MMOGs, because let’s face it, “kill and loot” is the main focus of play in such games.

He certainly has a point there. But then, with the publication of 3rd edition, it was obvious that WOTC was aiming to broaden the audience, and make the game appealing to those whose only experience with RPG was the computer versions.

One factor of CRPGs was the fast leveling. No surprise, as these games were meant to be played and finished in a much shorter period than the typical pencil & paper scenario. So there was much time compression there.

That spilled into 3rd ed., where characters could now zoom up the experience table with remarkable speed. My 8th level 2nd edition Fighter would be 16th level in 3rd ed. BIG difference there.

D&D is no longer aimed at the patient player, willing to put in the time to advance. I felt, after my first look at the 3rd ed. rules, that it was designed for munchkins. For people who wanted power and wanted it fast.

So it isn’t exactly amazing that magic items and whatnot are becoming more important in the game. D&D is simply building on the impatience and greed of the new generation of players.

After all, if you’re moving up fast, that means bigger challenges sooner, and so, of course, you need better gear. So let’s just put some Monty Haul in the mix and keep players happy.

As Coyote notes, this cheapens magic items. Instead of being something wonderful, a +1 shield or wand of magic missiles becomes an everyday object. More, the players now expect to find such things all the time. What was once magical has actually become rather mundane.

Personally, I don’t mind it too much in SP games. After all, the leveling is fast, and the game is often designed to make Neat Stuff necessary. Of course, the developers can go too far with that, as well.

For instance, good magic items ought to be rare in shops. Some arrows +1 or +2, maybe a +1 sword or such, could be available. But the best gear should come out of the encounters, and typically the important ones.

That, after all, is how it was when I was playing AD&D (1st/2nd ed.). For that matter, there was Bushido, where magic items were incredibly rare. In fact, I covered much of this in When Story Matters In RPG, where I bemoaned the superfast leveling and magical largesse of modern games.

And this also brings up the issue of “balancing”, which is of most importance (supposedly, anyway) in MMOGs. There is this strange idea that all classes must somehow be equal, which is nonsense.

One of the major reasons to have diversity of classes in a group is because no one person can do everything. All professions have their strengths and weaknesses, and this is what allows everyone to make a contribution to the party.

Aside from eternal “tweaking” where characters are being “re-balanced” (which usually means nerfed), magic items are used as a supplemental equalizer in MMOGs. This has also come over to the non-MMOG products.

Is there a solution? I don’t know. Those of us who came up “the hard way” are likely to appreciate a game that doesn’t focus on “magic, magic everywhere”. But the majority who play today probably wouldn’t like it. They want their toys, and they won’t be happy until they get them.

My characters in ol’ 1E D&D were – eventually – pretty high level with loads of magic items that I almost never used. But having an intelligent Sword of Sharpness, or a Daern’s Instant Fortress almost defined the character – my magic-user was the dude with the tower and the shape-changing cloak (which I’d done the magical research to develop, screwing up the first one and finding myself polymorphed – body AND mind – into a cougar until my party members could find a way to break the spell. Back to the drawing board…)

Those toys are FUN. And isn’t that what the game is supposed to be? Fun?

But part of the fun – to me – is to aspire to things we can’t have, to quest for more. There’s something far more exciting about finding that Flame Tongue sword in the treasure room of the Troll King than simply shelling out 20,715 gold pieces for it in the city of Generica.

And the goof-up my wizard made creating that cloak … with disasterous results … was far more memorable to me than simply using a “Craft Miscellanious Magic Item” feat in 3.5.

Even purchasing a magic item could be an exciting adventure, with some city-based adventuring and possible intrigue. Or locating rate components to create a new magic item – locating cockatrice feathers could be a dangerous challenge.

The attitude that these things are nothing more than a player-controlled tool just doesn’t feel right to me. It feels like they are abstracting out one of the most fun elements of the game in an ill-advised attempt to minimize time spent in-between ‘the good parts’ (which seems to be defined as nothing but combat).

“There is this strange idea that all classes must somehow be equal, which is nonsense.”

It’s not nonsense if you’re trying to get munchkins not to all play the same few classes and expose the pathetic lack of depth in your game. Where a large number of options exists, almost all of them will be severely suboptimal and thus chosen in a me-first competitive environment–such as most any MMORPG–only by masochists. Tweaking serves to turn the hourglass over and keep the grinders running on that hamster exercise wheel for a few more months.

Too, most MMORPGs have at least some PvP component. Capcom tried hard to balance the PvP arcade game Street Fighter 2, but 90% of players still used Ryu, with most of the other 10% using his near-clone Ken. Talk about stultifying to watch for 30 minutes as you waited your turn for the ritual butt-kicking at the hands of the local shark. Hadoken! Hadoken! Shoryuken! Lather, rinse, repeat. Without some effort at balancing, PvP becomes so mind-numbing that even munchkins get bored.

I play because I enjoy the ride…not for the rewards. And for the challenge, playing with friends (acting out the parts was fun too), friendly cooperation and competition, uncovering some unique item, marvel, and/or trap. Enjoying the storyline and superb crafting of the GM.

Same reasons I play online and stand-alone games. When fun becomes grind, when friends become enemies, when drama appears, when personal agendas take over, when the game is poorly implemented or supported…I stop playing and move to greener pastures.

Sometimes games de-evolve into ‘magic against magic’ bouts. Or ‘melee is useless because range always wins.’ Everyone can’t have the ultimate power…but it is exactly what most want. I think ‘Wizard Wars’ would make a gazillion dollars if an online version was made.

Coyote, exactly. That’s why I said good items should be rare in shops and most Neat Stuff ought to come from important encounters. The current “give ’em plenty” attitude means players don’t value what they have.

By the way, Coyote, take a look at the last few messages in the Mokor Letters comments. Interested to have your take on that.

Verbose, you’re thinking of PvP; I wasn’t ;) But your comment shows just how lacking so many MMOGs are when they have to go through the tweak cycle. That excepts having inadvertantly made one class really too powerful.

Dolnor, rant away ;) I agree that it’s the ride that is the most fun. But picking up a Neat Item or two along the way doesn’t hurt. A game with little treasure, unless carefully handled, can end up being not so much fun.

“There is this strange idea that all classes must somehow be equal, which is nonsense.”

I have problems with this statement.

If you’re saying that the goal of having the character classes look the same, play the same and only differ cosmetically is a dumb idea, then yes, I agree with you… although I’d really like to know what kind of unalloyed nincompoop would actually think that this is, honestly, a good design goal, something that one strives for instead of blundering into. Don’t game designers consider the “all the heroes start looking alike” syndrome a Bad Thing?

But while equality of character classes is a bad thing, I think class equivalence is a good goal. A mage can’t swing a sword to slay monsters, but that’s okay, because that’s what fighters are good at, and fighters are no good at casting magic spells, many of which do things that no fighter can hope to do. A sneaky-type kind of fellow isn’t puissant enough to pour death-dealing fire to his foes, and is far too weedy to wield but daggers and wear nothing heavier than leather — but that’s okay, he can sneak and climb and squeeze his way into the tightest of spots, and he laughs at all kinds of locks and the lummoxes that guard the treasures he’s here to steal.

And all of them would be in trouble without the aid of a healer, who can’t deal with the burninating and the smiting or the sneaking, but knows more of the healing arts than just the first-aid variety, and so on and so forth. I don’t consider any of the previous hypothetical classes “equal” in a strict sense, since each class can do what other classes can’t do.

And, you know, I don’t consider superfast levelling to be a terribly bad thing. The trope I get tired of, mind you, is the “loser who has to become powerful” trope. Let’s get rid of that gaming trope, it’s old hat. Let’s start out with someone who’s competent, but who’s forgotten who he is and is trying to remember long forgotten skills. Or maybe not, that’s too similar to Planescape, and the trope that we’re trying to abandon anyway.

Let’s play someone who’s competent and suddenly realizes that he’s slowing down as he gets older, and he has to compensate for slowing reflexes, failing eyesight or rheumatism.

Or let’s play someone competent who’s slowly going insane, and all you can do is slow down the insanity, or at best choose what kind of insanity you’d be saddled with.

Or, no. Let’s play someone who’s competent, heck, powerful even, but for every ounce of power he gained he’s saddled himself with a rotten reputation, powerful enemies, and maybe an old elven curse or three. Make it necessary for him to redeem himself or something to truly succeed.

Mind you, you’re like the third person I’ve read this month that’s griping about the state of gaming. The other two was, of course, Coyote and James Maliezewski, who’s been reminiscing about OD&D and how badly d20 and WoTC have lost their way. I don’t know, is it something about the weather that makes this sort of thing more likely?

Tariq, it’s nothing new. We’ve been grumbling about the state of gaming from one aspect or another for quite some time. “We” meaning not just those of us here, but other places around the ‘net.

Problem is, much of gaming is “old hat”, when you think of it. The usual “start at level 1 and work up” is certainly tiresome. But then, so are the endless “get this for me” or “kill something for me” jobs that infest most games. So is the villain behind the scenes that you only meet at the end.

The amnesia ploy is “old hat”, as well. It’s been used before, and before both PS:T and The Witcher. For that matter, it’s in Eschalon, too. I am no fan of this plot device, such as it is.

Dunno how many players would be interested in someone who used to be great but is now slowing down through old age. Might go over once as a special, but certainly not as a regular thing.

As for the “hero with power but problems”, well, there we’re handed a character who did things in the past over which we had no control (rather like Nameless, eh?). And players like being in control.

Interesting how the discussion has suddenly veered from the main topic, mainly how excessive goodies cheapen magic in games ;)

Even in non-PvP games, the “class balance” issue comes up like a broken record running at 9000 RPM. I suspect that the reason I’ve found Eschalon to be a bit harder than other people thought it was because I chose a rogue. The rogue archetype (used by D&D) is a very group-dependent class.

As far as the hero who starts competent but loses sanity… isn’t that the Call of Cthulhu RPG?

The traditionalist part of me that’s ranting against the distribution of magic items like feeder pellets in a hamster cage is probably the part of me that values story over other elements. A good story has a bunch of defeats and twists and reversals and other changes-of-goal that don’t suit a game very well. So I value the dramatic appeal of magic items, though the gamer in me recognizes them as nothing more than simple bonuses to odds that should be accumulated in my relentless pursuit of the Final Goal.

for better or most likely worse, mmorpgs have created the concept of totally equal but different.

these games even when a group seems to be working together for some common purpose it is mostly all for one and that one is ME, ME, ME.

dagger toons want to be able to stand side by side with axe/sword toons and dish out nearly the same damage points. If not per stike then an accumulated DoT (damage over time), so they can share or have a shot at the kill rewards.

mages who should be in robes or light leather are in platemail with nearly as high a meleeDef as the melee toons just sans shield. Otherwise they stand little or no chance of surviving the epic battles.

and heaven forbid that a mage can will do considerably more damage per spell or DoT. why that would make the PvM totally unbalanced and then nobody would be a melee, they would all be mages.

In a true party-based game, the important thing isn’t that your character is balanced, but that you have a strong “niche.” It’s balanced insofar as that niche needs to be useful just as much as any other class niche, but that’s about it.

But that’s a whole ‘nother problem. Except for the assumption that it is the magic items that are entitlements for a class, and thus used in the calculation of the power level of that class.

(One thing to D&D 3.5’s credit — they assumed scrolls were integral to the Wizard’s class balance, and so they made the ability to scribe said scrolls a class feature. Okay, so the wizard ends up sacrificing XP in a way few other classes do, but aside from that…)

Back to the original topic, I find it funny that the Magic Item Compendium inspired this rant. It doesn’t really increase the power level of the game; most of the items aren’t more powerful than those in the original game. What it increases is your character’s choice of actions.

Many of the items in it are:
1. Low cost
2. Immediate actions
3. Usable a certain # of times per day
If I were looking for Monty Haul items, I’d expect them to be:
1. High cost
2. Constant effect

Also, many of the magic items are primarily useful for non-spellcasters, who are not only underpowered compared to spellcasters in 3.5, but have many fewer options. Scorpia’s mentioned in previous posts that in AD&D, all fighters had to do was decide “Who do I hit next?”, and I’m afraid that hasn’t changed much in 3.5. (Well, maybe they decide “Do I power attack or not this turn?” as well.)

Looking over the magic items, I think they mimic abilities they would give as class abilities, if they were able to revise the base classes. But they can’t patch D&D 3E (again), so they just have to insert them as magic items & wait until 4E to fit them into the classes.

I find it funny that the MIC inspired this rant; most of the magic items in there don’t increase power level, but the variety of options you have in (and out) of combat. Isn’t that a good thing, especially for non-spellcasters who’re still (for the most part) limited to just deciding who to hit next for tactics?

I used to run an AD&D Second Edition game world that was low magic. Getting a +1 anything was rare. You did not find magic laying in a chest or in loot. It was on an NPC who used it against you, you only got it if you killed that NPC. Magic-Users did not just get spells, they had to earn them, NPC trainers didn’t just give them to them. They had to earn the NPC’s trust and then pay a huge price for the spell and they better hope the Mage knew the spell. They were more likely to get a non-combat spell as a reward. I still chuckle at the inventive ways those non-combat spells were used in combat.

The world was a role-play world. No XP was given for combat. Ever. Only for role-playing and only at the end of the session. Bad roleplayers didn’t get much. After 2 sessions everyone was roleplaying and having a great time. More than one told me that it was the most fun they ever had playing the pen & paper games.

As the DM I even used funny voices for some of my NPC’s and I appreciate Mel Blanc’s skill more from it.

The flip side to the game I ran above was a very high magic game my buddy ran. Everyone started at level 9 or 10 and everyone had a +5 weapon.

So I roled up my level 9 Ranger and argued with my DM buddy how stupid it was to give everyone +5 weapons. In response he stuck me with a +5 Vorpal Kantana and a ring of geni summoning (the music genie). My response was to make my ranger dual class as a thief – a level 1 thief who’s negatives for using a long sword almost cancelled out the +5 magic.

The best part was I was the parties only thief. Only the DM and I knew I was level 1. I also made him a child of a parents who traveled abroad so he had no knowledge of local customs only having recently returned to the forgotten realms.

Anyway, I blew every save with that character and roleplayed it like I didn’t. No one caught on. Even when the black dragon ravaged the party. The best part was at the end of the battle only my level 1 theif and the level 10 paladin were still standing. My vorpal sword getting the killing blow. I happily left the fight as a level 2 and continued to blow the saving throws – and having much fun. Everyone was so caught up in the magic and loot and argued over every little thing they found. I had the character never ask for anything. I’d blow the item ID’s and more than one of them quit using their +5 item for a mis-identified inferior item thinking it was better cause the level 2 thief told them it was. In the end the campaign was never finished. But the low magic campaign was. Everyone got freaking greedy and hours were lost arguing over who should get what. That didn’t happen in the low magic campaign where everyone had non magic gear and never knew when they got magic, cause they didn’t bother to id anything, instead they hurried to the next step in the campaign eager to know what was next. Happily walking over piles of items to get to the next NPC dialoge and role play.

The point is online games are being ruined much like the campaign my buddy tried to run. By greed.

Give me a game with story. I’ll happily roleplay even if my character dies. As long as it furthers the story or I get to role play the death with Shatner like flare.

Vag, your low-magic world reminds me of the Bushido game I was in. There were very few items in that one. We did get x.p. for fights, but as the levels only went up to six, you can imagine that the last few were very much uphill ;)

Of course, the DM was excellent. Low-magic can only work when the DM knows what he/she is doing.

That “high-powered” campaign doesn’t sound too inviting. Having a +5 vorpal is nice, but really, only some god-like character should have one.

But I have to ask: how could you miss those saves and pretend you didn’t, with no one catching on?

I agree, it was silly that all these level 9/10 characters were running around with +5 weapons.

It’s all in the role play. True roleplaying means you role play ignorance for the character when you as the player know better even if it’s to the detriment of the character.

Since you asked: The saving throws were for looking for traps going into the black dragons lair. I’d only make the check if I rolled a natural 20. So I blew them all and the dragon was ready for the party. After the dragons initial attack I hid having the music ginni make a wall to hide behind. Everyone else fought while I plinked away with arrows.

The DM kept 3×5 cards on all characters including their actual chances of hitting. Since I had lvl 9 ranger hit points everyone assumed I was actually a lvl 9 thief. heh heh. It was hard to keep from laughing as the dice showed a save for a level 9 thief all the while knowing it didn’t for a level 1. The character would not know he missed, so I lead the party to the slaughter. Everyone assumed we missed a trap when the dragon attacked. None suspected we tripped every single one.

The low magic campaign was hard and exhausting as it meant spending many hours of prep time. Understand that this was during a deployment during the 1st Gulf War on an aircraft carrier. We played every night. So I got 1 hour of prep time before we played. We’d play 5 – 6 hours then hit our racks before working our 12 hour shifts. On Sundays we only worked 8 so I got alot of prep time there.

Due to the daily play and marathon sessions campaigns would last usually 2 weeks sometimes 3. We had 3 GM/DM’s and if one of us needed a break we’d switch to a different game. We played everything back then. Shadowrun, GURPS, AD&D, Robotech, Dangerous Journeys, more obscure ones, you name it we tried it. We got smart and started swtiching on a rotating basis to keep from wearing out. Always had around 10 people playing with others on the waiting list. If someone couldn’t play there was always someone waiting to fill in. Sometimes we’d run multiple games cause so many people wanted to play. Toward the end of the deployment we were running two campaigns simultaneously a night to accomidate people and it still wasn’t enough. Lot’s of fun.