Yeah, I was thinking about jazz when reading fugazifan's post, re Gershwin and Modernism. I certainly think there's a case to be made (and which nodoubt has been made a number of times) for jazz composers like Ellington right up to say Mingus.

Those of you familiar with "Last Night of the Proms" know that each year's performance ends with a rousing version of "Rule, Brittania!". But, as chance would have it, in the year 2001 the "Last Night of the Proms" was performed on September 15, so, by Her Majesty's command, "Rule, Brittania!" was replaced by the American compser Samuel Barber's "Adagio for Strings".

Here's the "Simple Gifts" movement of Aaron Copeland's "Appalachian Spring". It was inspired by an American Christian sect known as the Shakers, who practiced strict celibacy and found meditative peace by giving their entire attention to everyday domestic tasks.

This piece by the popular singer Jewel hardly counts as classical music, except for the fact that it shows the extent to which she gets the point of the "Simple Gifts" movement of Aaron Copeland's "Appalachian Spring".

I just finished listening to it on youtube. I'd definitely be into hearing more stuff like that.

I was thinking of Kaija Saariaho when I was writing that, but Murail's one of the 'instigators' of spectralism, along with Gerard Grisey. The lineage runs (roughly) from Xenakis, Varése and takes in bits of concrete (which makes it very close to Lachenmann) and sound-art (say, Naumann).

There's a great piece by Horaitu Radelescu, 'Infinite cannot be anti-infinite' which is worth checking out - he split up an octave into something like 140 intervals.

Spectralism is kind of interesting to me because it's the first movement which uses new technology for the experiment, rather than as material. So the 'spectral analysis' - where aspects of a sound are physically interrogated with spectroscopes or whatever they are - are the experiment which informs the resultant music (and necessary slippage between that analysis and what is possibly with the orchestra as is) rather than using (for instance) record players as material (Cage's Williams Mix/ radio stuff). It's a load of geeks in sound labs rather than a load of geeky composers seeking new musical instruments in modern technology.

__________________
Message boards are the last vestige of the spent masturbator, still intent on wasting time in some neg-heroic fashion. Be damned all who sail here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savage Clone

Last time I was in Chicago I spent an hour in a Nazi submarine with a banjo player.

I was thinking of Kaija Saariaho when I was writing that, but Murail's one of the 'instigators' of spectralism, along with Gerard Grisey. The lineage runs (roughly) from Xenakis, Varése and takes in bits of concrete (which makes it very close to Lachenmann) and sound-art (say, Naumann).

There's a great piece by Horaitu Radelescu, 'Infinite cannot be anti-infinite' which is worth checking out - he split up an octave into something like 140 intervals.

Spectralism is kind of interesting to me because it's the first movement which uses new technology for the experiment, rather than as material. So the 'spectral analysis' - where aspects of a sound are physically interrogated with spectroscopes or whatever they are - are the experiment which informs the resultant music (and necessary slippage between that analysis and what is possibly with the orchestra as is) rather than using (for instance) record players as material (Cage's Williams Mix/ radio stuff). It's a load of geeks in sound labs rather than a load of geeky composers seeking new musical instruments in modern technology.

I listened to the "Gondwana" piece myself, and, I must admit, it sounds a lot like Sonic Youth. Would you please explain what "spectralism" consists of? I've honestly never heard of the term.

If it's not too rude, could I point you to the wiki article on spectralism, and recommend a detour through this article about a Xenakis piece and maybe a quick look at the article on IRCAM? I'll happily try and fill in the gaps from there.

I think it's really unfair on all parties to say it 'sounds like Sonic Youth' though. SY have only a mildly unusual approach to composition (as such) - tonally speaking, they're very tame.

__________________
Message boards are the last vestige of the spent masturbator, still intent on wasting time in some neg-heroic fashion. Be damned all who sail here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savage Clone

Last time I was in Chicago I spent an hour in a Nazi submarine with a banjo player.

I was thinking of Kaija Saariaho when I was writing that, but Murail's one of the 'instigators' of spectralism, along with Gerard Grisey. The lineage runs (roughly) from Xenakis, Varése and takes in bits of concrete (which makes it very close to Lachenmann) and sound-art (say, Naumann).

There's a great piece by Horaitu Radelescu, 'Infinite cannot be anti-infinite' which is worth checking out - he split up an octave into something like 140 intervals.

Spectralism is kind of interesting to me because it's the first movement which uses new technology for the experiment, rather than as material. So the 'spectral analysis' - where aspects of a sound are physically interrogated with spectroscopes or whatever they are - are the experiment which informs the resultant music (and necessary slippage between that analysis and what is possibly with the orchestra as is) rather than using (for instance) record players as material (Cage's Williams Mix/ radio stuff). It's a load of geeks in sound labs rather than a load of geeky composers seeking new musical instruments in modern technology.

Great, thanks. Reading the wiki page, the fundamental idea seems quite similar to Divisionism (and to a lesser degree Pointilism) in painting. Although clearly less abstract in its end result:

There are two pieces you need to listen to right now:they arer older, but I want you to listen to classics, go listen to these: tell me what you think.
1) Hector Berioz: symphonie fantastic ( no 5), or the whole thing: of course the whole thing will take a while to get through. Try to read about the story behind it.
2) Penderecki: threnody for the victims of hiroshima. this is scarey

I honestly believe the untimate composer and piece to listen to (in its entire form) is Hector Berlioz- Symphonie Fantastique- Now this is not a modern piece, but Wow. The story and themes behind it, is truely in a world of its own. I had to stuy this piece for a year. I remember the haunting witches theme.

Modern Classical: Phillip Houghton, Richard Charlton, John Cage.

Old faves: Chopin (great piano solos), Penderecki (I think thats how to spell it??), Penderecki has chilling music, esp, his thronody for the victims of Hiroshima, which has an eerie sound, a wall of violins which are also similar in cult movies such as Phsycho. - listen to this: Penderecki- threnody for the victims of hiroshima.

I'm now watching the beginning of the film "Seven Days in May" on television, and they just now played a piece (on unprepared piano!) which seems, to me, to be a total ripoff of John Cage's "Music for Marcel Duchamp". (According to my guide, the movie began a little less than half an hour ago, so, if you enjoy independent access to the film, this item would be a little prior to thirty minutes into the film.

Enough of that now! It's time for me to switch channels so that I can watch one of my favo(u)rite films of all time: "Metroploitan". (No, not the German Expressionist film, but, rather, the American navel-gazing film concerning participation in the New York debutante season.)

In many respects the film is accurate, except for the following points:

1) No New York City debutante (at least in my experience) appears at more than one ball. Whichever ball provides the forum for any debutante's debut is the only ball that she (or either of her escorts) attends for the season. There may be several dances during the season, but only one cotillion per debutante.

2) The film shows a lot of dancing and listening to 1950's "Cha Cha Cha"-type music. This is possibly historically inaccurate: although I was part of this scene in the early 1980's (which, NOT coincidentally, was about the time I was getting into Sonic Youth), the film concerns this same scene in the late 1980's (years after my period of participation had concluded), the music we listened to being mostly "Moody Blues" (which I loved, and still love) along with "Foreigner" and "Journey" and Billy Joel (which I simply endured). Once, at a dance, someone played "New Rose" by the Damned, and we all went nuts!

3) The film shows young men walking down the streets of NYC wearing white tie and tails, striped pants and top hats, canes and cigarette holders and white gloves. NOT ON YOUR LIFE!!!! We walked to the dances wearing jeans and dockers (sans socks, regardless of the depth of the snow, of course (except that if the snow was too deep, we wore rubber overshoes)), five-dollar sweatshirts and tweed and various types of topcoats from the Salvation Army, and we carried our dinner clothes in hockey bags. Once we got to the hotel, we went to the public restroom, where we changed clothes with the assistance of the restroom attendant (who was MASSIVELY tipped for his assistance).

4) The highly intellectual discussion regarding philosophy and literature and the such, for the most part, simply didn't exist; almost all the conversation involved Stephen King horror novels, which I wasn't into. I tended to drive the conversation in the direction of Modern Classical music, which my fellows seemed to like, not so much for its own essential beauty, but simply because it seemed wild, and radical, and different.

But, the essential atmosphere of the film is historically accurate, which is probably why it's one of my favo(u)rite films of all time!

P.S.: That phrase "Urban Haute Bourgeoisie" would have been immediately rejected by my set as being redundant, as the term "bourgeois" already connotes urbanism. Further, we would never have referred to a baron as an aristocrat, as a baron is a nobleman (or a "peer" in UK usage), i.e., a member of the class just beneath the aristocracy.

I'm now watching the beginning of the film "Seven Days in May" on television, and they just now played a piece (on unprepared piano!) which seems, to me, to be a total ripoff of John Cage's "Music for Marcel Duchamp". (According to my guide, the movie began a little less than half an hour ago, so, if you enjoy independent access to the film, this item would be a little prior to thirty minutes into the film.

Enough of that now! It's time for me to switch channels so that I can watch one of my favo(u)rite films of all time: "Metroploitan". (No, not the German Expressionist film, but, rather, the American navel-gazing film concerning participation in the New York debutante season.)

In many respects the film is accurate, except for the following points:

1) No New York City debutante (at least in my experience) appears at more than one ball. Whichever ball provides the forum for any debutante's debut is the only ball that she (or either of her escorts) attends for the season. There may be several dances during the season, but only one cotillion per debutante.

2) The film shows a lot of dancing and listening to 1950's "Cha Cha Cha"-type music. This is possibly historically inaccurate: although I was part of this scene in the early 1980's (which, NOT coincidentally, was about the time I was getting into Sonic Youth), the film concerns this same scene in the late 1980's (years after my period of participation had concluded), the music we listened to being mostly "Moody Blues" (which I loved, and still love) along with "Foreigner" and "Journey" and Billy Joel (which I simply endured). Once, at a dance, someone played "New Rose" by the Damned, and we all went nuts!

3) The film shows young men walking down the streets of NYC wearing white tie and tails, striped pants and top hats, canes and cigarette holders and white gloves. NOT ON YOUR LIFE!!!! We walked to the dances wearing jeans and dockers (sans socks, regardless of the depth of the snow, of course (except that if the snow was too deep, we wore rubber overshoes)), five-dollar sweatshirts and tweed and various types of topcoats from the Salvation Army, and we carried our dinner clothes in hockey bags. Once we got to the hotel, we went to the public restroom, where we changed clothes with the assistance of the restroom attendant (who was MASSIVELY tipped for his assistance).

4) The highly intellectual discussion regarding philosophy and literature and the such, for the most part, simply didn't exist; almost all the conversation involved Stephen King horror novels, which I wasn't into. I tended to drive the conversation in the direction of Modern Classical music, which my fellows seemed to like, not so much for its own essential beauty, but simply because it seemed wild, and radical, and different.

But, the essential atmosphere of the film is historically accurate, which is probably why it's one of my favo(u)rite films of all time!

P.S.: That phrase "Urban Haute Bourgeoisie" would have been immediately rejected by my set as being redundant, as the term "bourgeois" already connotes urbanism. Further, we would never have referred to a baron as an aristocrat, as a baron is a nobleman (or a "peer" in UK usage), i.e., a member of the class just beneath the aristocracy.

Great post

I love the 'Metropoliton' film you're talking about but obviously don't have any of your personal insights into it.

That last piece of mine toally doen't belong on this thread, but, for some bizarre reason, and despite my utmost efforts, I can't delete it. So, please view my repost of this item on my "An American Loyalist's 4th of July" thread, which is where iT truly belongs.