Shocking. Innocent people would die when terrorist governments hide like cowards behind them, and use them as human meatshields for political gain. At least the Israelis make it a point to attempt to avoid Civilian casualties, not purposefully target them with artillery. You know, like HAMAS.

Curiously enough, I see you aren't making an issue of the fact that their Government has made it a policy to support the shelling of another sovereign nation with mortars and rockets, despite ostensibly holding a peace/cease fire treaty with them.

I love how you say "us" like you are a member of the Israeli government or an Israeli soldier. IIRC you are in Israel; this is a trend I've also noticed in protests in the US. (If by some slim chance you are actually fighting, then disregard this post. But over my time reading Fark, I think it's safe to assume you're not.)

The main reason I disregard this conflict (and I'm an atheist Palestinian-American, BTW, with no intention of ever moving to the Middle East) is that both sides that are actually fighting have farked themselves and each other over. Any rational observer can see that Israeli incursions into Palestine are generally neatly timed around Israeli election time. In many countries, a state of war is when the "stay the course" mentality kicks in (you don't want to change leaders when we're at war, right?) and citizens largely vote to keep the same people in power. Good for Likud (the conservative Israeli party), with its tenuous grasp on the Knesset. At the same time, Hamas does not care about launching mortars and rockets from near civilian houses/schools/etc because when Israel inevitably strikes the "launch point", Hamas has packed up and moved away and some unwitting civilians get their shiat wrecked. That allows Hamas to basically trick its supporters into believing Israel always wants to harm civilians.

Both sides are using human lives for political gain. The Israelis use soldiers and settlers and Hamas uses civilians. Not to mention that the shiat that leads up to this conflict on both sides start to cancel each other out: illegal settlement creation/expansion, terrorists smuggling weapons, restricting Palestinian travel, suicide bombing... all part of the constant digging deeper of the hole that is the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

And yet outside supporters of one side or the other use "us" to describe their side like it is some sort of baseball game, where the fans say "we're gonna win" when they really mean the baseball team they support is going to win. If you're not Israeli government/military or Hamas, this conflict is above you. You are pawns to be influenced or crapped upon, depending on what the situation calls for. And though you may or may not still have me ignored for arguing with you in the past, maybe some other people will read and learn from this.

ginandbacon:Tatsuma: This morning, Israel sent 117 trucks, hundreds of tons of humanitarian help, in order to alleviate the suffering of civilians suffering in Gaza.

Just because we want to stop Hamas from hurting our civilians doesn't mean we want to hurt theirs.

Tats, 13 children are dead. A pregnant woman was killed. At some point,trucks of food stop making it right.

I think when you see people posing for photos as dead, then coming back to life to go to the next photo shoot, or pictures of dead Palestinian children that prompts outrage at Israel which turn out to be actually a picture of an Israeli child killed by a Palestinian rocket, or pictures of victims of Israeli attacks which actually turn out to be images recycled from earlier in the year in Syria then you lose all respect for any claim made by a Palestinian.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Israel has never done anything bad and never killed children, of course they have but the Palestinians will never get anywhere by lying constantly. Also throwing stones at someone bigger than you doesn't always work out like it did for David. How can people say that Israel are trying to exterminate the Palestinians, in genocide, when they ship in tons of aid supplies? No military commander would advise giving succor to your enemy, but the Israeli's have done a lot to protect Palestinian civilians, over and above anything we've done, over and above anything Palestinians have done. Even when it's been difficult, like when the Palestinians use their own civilians as human shields.

Sometimes I wonder if I fall prey to Israeli propaganda, but I only think that because I can see the Palestinian lies for what they are, so if one side can lie why not the other? But as far as I can see it's just facts.

BronyMedic:ginandbacon: Tats, 13 children are dead. A pregnant woman was killed.

Shocking. Innocent people would die when terrorist governments hide like cowards behind them, and use them as human meatshields for political gain. At least the Israelis make it a point to attempt to avoid Civilian casualties, not purposefully target them with artillery. You know, like HAMAS.

Curiously enough, I see you aren't making an issue of the fact that their Government has made it a policy to support the shelling of another sovereign nation with mortars and rockets, despite ostensibly holding a peace/cease fire treaty with them.

*sigh*

Yeah, I totally love Hamas. Three Israelis are dead in this most recent idiocy. You think I don't mourn them? We have 50 Palestinians dead (at least) and three Israelis. Enough. It's just more of the same. Israel has been using collective punishment for decades.

War would end if the older generation would stop pouring their flaming hateful, spiteful religious culture in the children's heads.Because the supposedly wise (but senile and warped) old people are incapable of seeing how they are perpetuating this silly fight over whose imaginary wizard promised what land to whom.

Those poor kids died because the old folk's brains are pure concrete, solid, unyielding masses incapable of a single original thought.

Old people are full of bullshiat. It's the younger generation's duty to reject the hatred.

It's almost like people are still angry that Israel kicked them out of their homes and forced them to live in ghettos for generations. Weird that treating people like animals makes them turn into animals.

Go ahead, defend this because Hamas is made up of " terrorists". I'm pretty sure that's what the Vichy government called the French resistance.

I didn't read most of the Derp, so I'm sure this has been posted. But what do you think we would do if the drug cartels were firing rockets from Mexico into the United States? How the fark would we have any problem with our military attacking launch sites, rocket factories and storage sites, and the leaders of the attacks?

Of course we wouldn't, we would demand that our military defend us. Even if those sites were PURPOSELY put in civilian areas.

You can talk about the history of Israel and Hamas all you want. The bottom line is that Hamas is trying to spark a greater war in the middle east. They want to kill as many Israeli civilians as possible, so that Israel has no choice but to attack the rocket sites. And Hamas builds these sites in civilian areas, making sure those areas are packed with woman and children. They want to have the Arab street to rise up and demand that their governments go to war with Israel.

Don't be idiots, Hamas would sacrifice anything to destroy Israel. If that means that many of their own woman and children must be sacrificed, then they will gladly make that sacrifice.

So all of you who blame Israel for this. How should they respond to constant rocket attack?

Oh, and FYI, the current leaders of Hamas will accept nothing less than the destruction of Israel. How do you negotiate peace with someone who wants, and will accept nothing less, than your death?

What you don't get is that when you throw shiat like this at people they start to question your motives. You are blatantly the worst liar and bullshiat artist this site has ever seen. The agenda you're pushing is so outrageously one sided that for every idiot that falls for it you make a dozen enemies.

I used to support Israel - Western style democracy up against the seething Muslim hordes. But listening to the lies you peddle, the absolutely shameless lies that even Goebbels would be too embarrassed to push, I have long since reconsidered. There are countless people like me here. I don't expect you to listen, but I do enjoy seeing you get outed for what you are.

ginandbacon:"The sites hit in Gaza early Sunday included buildings used by Britain's Sky News channel and the Dubai-based pan-Arab broadcaster al-Arabiya, the news organizations reported. At least six journalists were wounded, according to a health ministry spokesman in Gaza quoted by wire services." Link

FTL:

One of the buildings was used by al-Quds channel, which serves as a mouthpiece for Hamas, the militant group that rules Gaza. The Foreign Press Association in Israel issued a letter expressing concern and noting that a United Nations Security Council resolution says that journalists covering conflict civilians that must be protected.

The Israeli military said the sites struck overnight included a "communications antenna used by Hamas to carry out terrorist activity." In a statement, it said it also hit dozens of underground rocket launchers and a Hamas training base.

Doesn't sound like Sky News and Al-Arabiya were targeted, they're just in a bad location in a strategic target building.

I thought all the pussified "progressive Israelis" were the ones calmly lining up outside the gas chambers and had been eradicated as a sub-species? You mean to tell me a group of people so persecuted are willing to allow others to lead them to slaughter again?

I guess there is no limit to the bounds of how far humans will stoop to feel "safe" and to be "taken care of". I prefer my Israeli friends who have the "Never again will I make peace with those who would destroy us" attitude.

RIGHT, SO, everyone talks about upper atmosphere nuke based EMP weapons as being this radiation free awesome endgame? why not detonate one right above TelAviv/Jerusalem/Nazareth and fry-out all the electronic and electrical devices in the whole region. this would nix most weapons, cnn, twitter, etc... making the Holy Land truly Holy again.

I love how you say "us" like you are a member of the Israeli government or an Israeli soldier. IIRC you are in Israel; this is a trend I've also noticed in protests in the US. (If by some slim chance you are actually fighting, then disregard this post. But over my time reading Fark, I think it's safe to assume you're not.).

ohsnap.jpg

pretty sure that warrants an answer, Toots, lol.

FYI the best anyone's figured out, Tatsuma is a middle aged non ethnic convert from New York who moved to Israel to be a fundie. he might be one of those welfare leeches that do nothing but study Torah and have irresponsible babies but I'm not sure. its always the converts that act the most pious.

Tatsuma:This morning, Israel sent 117 trucks, hundreds of tons of humanitarian help, in order to alleviate the suffering of civilians suffering in Gaza.

Just because we want to stop Hamas from hurting our civilians doesn't mean we want to hurt theirs.

Doesn't this take away one of the key elements of war: that there will be suffering as a result of war. Civilized men, by their very nature, do not want to inflict harm on others. The common thread which should bind us all is our value of life: we are repulsed by the ending of it. This is why war should be used only as a last resort as a resolution to conflict. It must be repulsive. Everyone will forced to spill blood for the policies of a few- so it should always be in our interest to find an alternative.

The face of warfare has changed. We have come to believe that it will be precise as surgery- that only evil would be excised while the rest of us, as long as we didn't get painted by a predator's laser guidance system, we're free to go about our lives as usual. We also recognize that not all surgery is perfect, and have come to expect that the surgeon will repair the damage along the way as well.

This is not surgery. The surgery was performed along the way when various players were assassinated as a measure to avoid war.

The surgery has failed, the body has chosen to not accept your services.

You are there now. At war.

You do what you have to do, in an expediant manner, regardless of the cost.

That is what war is. That is why it is to avoided at all costs.

How one is to treat the casualties, compensate the victims, and help restore social order will will rest on the shoulders of the victor.

TwistedFark:Israel is an apartheid state. It's fundementally unjust. Their actions should surprise no one.

Funny thing about that. I was watching something on TV the other night and some refugees from Sudan were talking about how they were treated in Egypt vs. how they were treated in Israel. They seemed a little upset that their fellow Muslims in Egypt turned water cannons on them while Israel treated them like human beings.

Mrtraveler01:Tatsuma: Mrtraveler01: While simultaneous building even more settlements and evicting Palestinians from their homes.

Show me one example of a new settlement under the Bibi administration

Not a new settlement, just expanding an old settlement. Which is contrary to what the International Community wants

you know what could have prevented this kind of thing from happening if you were the Palestinians?sign a peace treaty 30 years ago accepting the status quo.they lost a war and don't want to negotiate a peace with their opponents.they don't want to give up the right of return and want a return to the pre-1967 borders.sorry, they and their allies started the war and lost, again.when they hold out for a white peace for damn near 50 years after getting ther asses kicked, why is it the other side who is at fault?if japan had demanded a white peace in ww2 we would still be over there.

Tatsuma:Mrtraveler01: Not a new settlement, just expanding an old settlement. Which is contrary to what the International Community wants

The Palestinian Authority has already declared that Pisgat Ze'ev and Ramot will stay part of the Israeli side of the city if Jerusalem is divided. By the way, both of these are integral parts of Jerusalem, and not 'settlements'.

You claimed that Bibi was 'building new settlements', show me one new settlement that was established by his administration.

OK just this once, for the sake of everyone else--A July 2009 survey of Israeli public opinion found that people were about evenly divided on the issue of new settlement construction, with 46 percent of those polled in support of further construction and 44 percent opposed.

On 19 June 2011, Haaretz reported that the Israeli cabinet voted to revoke Defense Minister Ehud Barak's authority to veto new settlement construction in the West Bank, by transferring this authority from the Agriculture Ministry, headed by Barak ally Orit Noked, to the Prime Minister's office.

In 2009, Prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu said: "I have no intention of building new settlements in the West Bank... But like all the governments there have been until now, I will have to meet the needs of natural growth in the population. I will not be able to choke the settlements." On 15 October 2009, he said the settlement row with the United States had been resolved.

In March 2012, it was revealed that the Civil Administration, a unit of the IDF, has over the years covertly earmarked 10% of the West Bank for further settlement.

On 7 June 2012, Netanyahu ordered the construction of 300 new homes in Beit El in the West Bank. He has also authorised the move of five apartment buildings to Beit El from the nearby outpost Ulpana, where they are to be removed by 1 July 2012, after the supreme court ruled that they were built on private Palestinian land. According to Al Jazeera, an additional 550 new homes are to be built elsewhere in the West Bank.

These Israel threads are interesting. There are honestly folks who believe that their side is all good. All good, all the time. Oh even when they kill children, they keep the lights on, so that makes it good, right? It just...Wow. The power of nationalism. Somebody learned something from WWII.

The bombs cache that the IDF destroyed were usually next to (sometimes inside) mosques, kindergarten, schools, clinics, etc...

It's incredibly sad when civilians die, but they make it a point that they will die. Israel struck more than 900 targets in Gaza in the last 4 days, and killed 3 terrorists for every civilian who sadly died. I think this is a clear indication that the IDF is doing its utmost best to insure that the lives of innocents will not be ended because of Hamas fighters.

Hai guyz! Any outrage over the Syrian Civil War? No? Nice to see how Egypt and Qatar get all worked up about Israel bumping off a few Hamas militants, but are cool with Syria killing thousands of their own people.

quietwalker:Evaluate both sides with identical criteria, and there is no way in which Hamas is not the primary aggressor, in which the burden of guilt and responsibility does not lie primarily with them.

You understand the whole idea that in an asymmetric conflict, "both sides" cannot and should not be judged by identical criteria, right? Case in point, Tatsuma's own statistics: over 600 rocket strikes have killed three Israelis, two indirectly, and a hundred of those didn't even make it to Israeli territory. Of the rest, Israeli missile defense took most of those out with the few that made it through being ineffectual.

You're telling me from that, Israel is not only justified in employing massive retaliation (over a thousand air strikes so far targeting critical infrastructure with the promise of a follow-up ground invasion and occupation) but has an ethical mandate to do so? That's a fundamentally out-of-whack perspective, especially when the stated means and goals of asymmetric warfare, i.e. terrorism, is to provoke a massive retaliation that saps economic resources, popular support, and credibility in the international community while simultaneously justifying the 'terrorists' own means and goals and increasing popular support.

In short, Israel is playing right into Hamas' hands. Israel's own massive retaliation doctrine justifies Hamas and its actions to Palestinians living in Gaza and perpetuates the cycle of conflict. This is particularly poignant in light of the fact Israel's own anti-missile defenses have been demonstrated in this very conflict to trivialize Hamas' most-destructive form of attack. Without inquiring or presuming of the ideology and goals of Netanyahu, Likud, or the Israeli right wing, why would you support Israel being willfully and intentionally manipulated by Hamas so?

sinschild:I thought all the pussified "progressive Israelis" were the ones calmly lining up outside the gas chambers and had been eradicated as a sub-species? You mean to tell me a group of people so persecuted are willing to allow others to lead them to slaughter again?

"Progressive Israelis" were the type that fought back against the Nazis, bonus points if they did it when anti-fascism was considered "premature". Progressive Israelis are the ones who would be against their current fascist scum government.

indarwinsshadow:No, It's laughable and pathetic to read how accepted racism is on fark.

Try /pol/ sometime if you think this is bad.But yes, Fark has its share of white supremacists and racists, check any thread where police abuse minorities or Republicans are trying to defend their arguments.Fark is a US site and one half of our two party system is a far right nationalist racist party akin to the National Front in other countries. It's just a reflection of modern America.

fluffy2097:Hamas cannot intentionally target anything. Their rockets have no guidance. They are terror weapons.

Well that's false on many levels:

1 - While the lower grade of rockets might be more or less unguided, they certainly can and do target civilians using them, as they point them toward cities before firing them. Just because they do not have a guidance system does not mean they can't be used to target something. A 9mm doesn't have a guidance system either, yet if you point and shoot at someone, you wouldn't say you didn't target them

2 - The higher-end weapons they have been using the last weeks (anti-aircraft missiles, anti-tank guided missiles, longer range missiles) etc... certainly have guidance system in them as well.

sinschild:I thought all the pussified "progressive Israelis" were the ones calmly lining up outside the gas chambers and had been eradicated as a sub-species? You mean to tell me a group of people so persecuted are willing to allow others to lead them to slaughter again?

[He] lost favor with the Israeli public after a long chain of scandals involving his marriage and corruption charges. In 1997, police recommended that [he] be indicted on corruption charges for influence-peddling. He was accused of appointing an attorney general who would reduce the charges and prosecutors ruled that there was insufficient evidence to go to trial. In 1999, [he] faced another scandal when the Israel Police recommended that he be tried for corruption for $100,000 in free services from a government contractor; Israel's attorney general did not prosecute, citing difficulties with evidence.

[He] lost favor with the Israeli public after a long chain of scandals involving his marriage and corruption charges. In 1997, police recommended that [he] be indicted on corruption charges for influence-peddling. He was accused of appointing an attorney general who would reduce the charges and prosecutors ruled that there was insufficient evidence to go to trial. In 1999, [he] faced another scandal when the Israel Police recommended that he be tried for corruption for $100,000 in free services from a government contractor; Israel's attorney general did not prosecute, citing difficulties with evidence.

how did this current round of tit for tat start?how did the entire thing start back in 1948,before that in 1967?before that in 1973?why is the bigger guy supposed to take a bunch to the face from a little guy repeatedly and then turn the other cheek?it seems like you people simply look at who is the weaker of the two in this moment in history and reflexively blame the other side.

I can see no other way you continually pretend Israel is the aggressor.

because I know the history of the wars of that region very well, and I know Israel didn't start any of them, and I know this continuing struggle is based on the unwillingness of today's Palestinians to come to peace terms after THEIR F*CKING GRANDPARENTS and the regional allies of their grandparents started and lost now 46 years ago.and don't give me shiat about the settlements.if the Palestinians signed a f*cking peace treaty sometime in the last 46 years the settlement grab couldn't happen. you want to refuse to come to terms, you'll continue to be occupied. that's the way war f*cking works. that's why you don;t f*ckinig start wars, and if you do and lose, you come to a peace.

it's the fact that they Palestinians refuse to come to terms on any peace without the right of now almost millions of Palestinian descendants to return and live in the land their grandfathers farmed in Israel plus move the borders back to the pre-1967 borders.

they are holding out for the most generous peace ever offered in the history of warfare when they started it then got their ass kicked. it's ridiculous.

How many Israelis have the Hamas rockets killed over the years vs. the number of Palestinians killed by the Israelis over that same period of time?

So should Israel pull some captured BM-31 launchers out of storage and fire katyushas back?Wait for a tit-for-tat on killing? oh we killed 5 of them, lets wait for them to kill two more of us before we fire again

INeedAName:Hell, what would you say if we just up and moved into Mexico, kicked 'em out a few choice spots then built new walls around everything we took? I wouldn't blame them for firing rockets and I would gladly get all up on the President's case about wtf we were doing!

Actually we did that, took more than half the country... and didn't give it back. Now we shoot people who try to enter that territory. I guess that makes us genocidal mass-murderers.

Blue_Blazer:This whole idea that Palestine should just leave them alone and get along in peace totally ignores the open-air prison in which the Palestinians live. This can't go on forever, and holding these people responsible for shiat that happened two or three or ten generations ago is barbaric

In reality, the rocketfire from Gaza is ongoing and not merely something relevant to those of generations past.

Smackledorfer:The long term policies of Israel are what lead to the repeating of this event. Israel behaves better in the battles, no doubt there, but always sink right down to the lowest level when it comes to finding an overall.

They are not moving towards either a one or two state solution. Until they do I won't be shedding any more tears (or less) for them than the Palestinians.

You know, I keep hearing the same bull shiat from Republicans about Obama. They all say Obama refused to negotiate with Republicans, and thus is to blame a lack of a budget deal.

You can't just say Israel walked away from negotiations over and over. You have to show some evidence at some point.

And the facts are, Israel tried in good faith. Everyone at this point knows the history and details of the two state solution compromise that was offered. No one credible asserts that it was a somehow lopsided and unfair compromise. It was basically a straight down the middle land swap.

They tried. They really, really, really did.

The PLO walked away, and will not return until their preconditions are met.

Bungles:BigNumber12: I_Love_Cheesecake: Nice to see our favourite pro-Israel shill out in full force this fine Sunday morning.

Nothing like shooting fish in a barrel (eg., Gaza), eh IDF?

People like you make it so easy to believe Tatsuma in threads like this. It must be daunting for you, when he's coming out swinging with all of this inconvenient "information" and "facts," and all you have are personal attacks, metaphors, and hyperbole. Amos Quito must hate your sort for making his side of things look like a bunch of hormonal, shiat-talking middle-schoolers.

Yes, Tatsuma is such a respected member of the Fark community, who always convinces people to his point of view.

Compared to a lot of the ad hominem, hyperbole, and made-up quotations I'm seeing from the opposing side, appeals to people who think with their hearts rather than their heads, Tatsuma is looking pretty level-headed.

ginandbacon:Tats, 13 children are dead. A pregnant woman was killed. At some point,trucks of food stop making it right.

How many German pregnant ladies did the United States kill in the 1940s? Every Israeli war is infinitely more justified that any American war has been, and yet people still get a thrill in their voice when they can dream of exterminating the last Jew from the world...

jaybeezey:HotIgneous Intruder: Both sides of this are wrong lying bloodthirsty freaks of the desert.Neither side deserves a holy land or anything good in life.I hope they nuke each other into oblivion.That said, Bibi Netanyahu is going to wear this mess around his neck like a flaming truck tire.He's being trolled like a boss.

/When either side can present facts that are the truth and both sides STILL look like horrible murderous pigs, you know something bigger is going on here.

Nice opinion. Now get some facts.

Har-har. Bibi is a psychopath, just like DumbYa was.Does the ironicalness bother you or do you just love to defend murderers?That's not very pious of you.

shotglasss:Mrtraveler01: shotglasss: Is it wrong of me to wish for the Israelis to be utterly and completely wiped out? Kill every Jew across the entire planet so that we no longer have to hear about how they're killing innocent muslim women and children. Level Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, and every buillding within their border.

Would that end this madness?

No, that wouldn't help.

That's a terrible thing to think of.

Maybe it is a terrible thing to think of, but it would stop the fighting and killing there, right?

shotglasss:I don't think Netanyahu dislikes Obama, but he does know that Obama will not help him outkiss his ass all the time like most Republican do and therefore cannot trust Obama.

FTFY

That's the real reason Bibi wanted Romney to win. Because Romney would just go along with whatever Bibi wanted him to (including invading Iran). Because Israel won't go to Iran without our help. Obama's win was a major setback for Bibi as he doesn't have a yes man in the US anymore.

Tatsuma:This morning, Israel sent 117 trucks, hundreds of tons of humanitarian help, in order to alleviate the suffering of civilians suffering in Gaza.

Just because we want to stop Hamas from hurting our civilians doesn't mean we want to hurt theirs.

Tats,

Hamas only started stepping up rocket attacks after Israel retaliated against Syria for shelling an Israeli outpost, or at least that's how the timeline looks to me.

I've heard my whole life that Hamas is armed and controlled by Syria, just like Hezbollah is armed and controlled by Iran. Just before the rocket attacks that made the news here, there were reports that the IDF was mobilizing along the Syrian border over concern of more civil war spillage.

It just seems to me that the only thing that would stop Hamas would be going after Syria, toppling Assad and dismantling the logistics chain. But Israel is just going after the distraction. Who do the people on the ground in Israel ultimately blame for this? Is Syria even part of the conversation over there?

Farking Canuck:Sock Ruh Tease: Any rational observer can see that Israeli incursions into Palestine are generally neatly timed around Israeli election time. In many countries, a state of war is when the "stay the course" mentality kicks in (you don't want to change leaders when we're at war, right?) and citizens largely vote to keep the same people in power. Good for Likud (the conservative Israeli party), with its tenuous grasp on the Knesset.

How does Likud get the Hamas to launch all those rockets at Israeli civilians just before elections? They must have a pretty good relationship with each other to get that timing right.

Haha, yeah, that would be a sign of a pretty good relationship if that were the case.

Hamas does their shiat pretty much all year long. The Israeli government responds with ground operations only every once in a while though.

willfullyobscure:I think the problem is that the towelheads overall have never seen total war. hell half of them think the holocaust is a myth. Turn Gaza into Dresden and I bet they'd change their tune PDQ

Molavian:My solution is carpet bombing, but no one likes it when I bring it up.

Buffalo77:BigBooper: didn't read most of the Derp, so I'm sure this has been posted. But what do you think we would do if the drug cartels were firing rockets from Mexico into the United States?

I can answer this.The US and A! would put all of Mexico under continuous surveillance of numerous flavors and varieties and put special forces teams on the ground. These teams would then start destroying and interdicting missiles and missile shipments, killing the missile crews and destroying the launch infrastructure and facilities.The US and A! government would lean down hard on whatever country was providing the missiles, possibly even stealth bombing the missile production facilities. Ships at sea would be stopped and searched for missiles and impounded if necessary. Once the threat was neutralized, the surveillance and interdiction would continue indefinitely until the Mexican government started to play along and provide security with the same effect.And it wouldn't take hundreds of missiles to provoke this response, either.

eventually somebody forces a cease fire (either because of an outside party, or because both sides' strategies are blowing up in their faces), which ironically just gives both sides more ammo (literally and figuratively) for when the other side WILL keep shooting, because you can say with 100% certainty that neither side is trustworthy because they believe a higher power (God) gave them the right to BE a God and will their collective punishment, and they easily morally justify it because neither side sees the other side as human beings but as a virus or disease or infestation

either way that whole area - from Sinai to Turkey - has gone insane, and shouldn't be trusted

I watched a film shot in 2003 about the Israeli/Palestinian conflicts (Death in Gaza). It is amazing, in a terrifying sort of way, the way the kids are raised. Hell, kids as young as 3 are well aware of who their enemies are and what should happen to those enemies.

Now, I'm wondering if any of the kids shown in the 2003 film have survived to adulthood (or near adulthood) and what they're doing now.

Happy Hours:TwistedFark: Israel is an apartheid state. It's fundementally unjust. Their actions should surprise no one.

Funny thing about that. I was watching something on TV the other night and some refugees from Sudan were talking about how they were treated in Egypt vs. how they were treated in Israel. They seemed a little upset that their fellow Muslims in Egypt turned water cannons on them while Israel treated them like human beings.

And yet on the other hand there's stuff like this:

I'M a Palestinian who was born in the Israeli town of Lod, and thus I am an Israeli citizen. My wife is not; she is a Palestinian from Nablus in the Israeli-occupied West Bank. Despite our towns being just 30 miles apart, we met almost 6,000 miles away in Massachusetts, where we attended neighboring colleges.

A series of walls, checkpoints, settlements and soldiers fill the 30-mile gap between our hometowns, making it more likely for us to have met on the other side of the planet than in our own backyard.

Never is this reality more profound than on our trips home from our current residence outside Washington.

Tel Aviv's Ben-Gurion International Airport is on the outskirts of Lod (Lydda in Arabic), but because my wife has a Palestinian ID, she cannot fly there; she is relegated to flying to Amman, Jordan. If we plan a trip together - an enjoyable task for most couples - we must prepare for a logistical nightmare that reminds us of our profound inequality before the law at every turn.

Even if we fly together to Amman, we are forced to take different bridges, two hours apart, and endure often humiliating waiting and questioning just to cross into Israel and the West Bank. The laws conspire to separate us.

If we lived in the region, I would have to forgo my residency, since Israeli law prevents my wife from living with me in Israel. This is to prevent what Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu once referred to as "demographic spillover." Additional Palestinian babies in Israel are considered "demographic threats" by a state constantly battling to keep a Jewish majority. (Of course, Israelis who marry Americans or any non-Palestinian foreigners are not subjected to this treatment.)

Tatsuma:That does not in any way change the fact that the Palestinian Authority has declared that those neighborhood will be part of Israel in any two state solution. Palestine Papers, and many other statements.

Got a citation?

I thought East Jerusalem was going to be part of Palestinian territory.

MustTryHarder:What you don't get is that when you throw shiat like this at people they start to question your motives.

"Jewish supremacism" is specifically something that was created by David Duke

MustTryHarder:You are blatantly the worst liar and bullshiat artist this site has ever seen.

Please point out the lies and bullshiat I posted in this thread

Mrtraveler01:Then how come that's not the message the world is gathering from this?

That does not in any way change the fact that the Palestinian Authority has declared that those neighborhood will be part of Israel in any two state solution. Palestine Papers, and many other statements.

I had a feeling that Netanyahu launched the current level of the offensive (as opposed to a simple proportionate response) because he feels threatened for the Jan 22 elections, especially after he's been challenged publicly for his support of Mitt Romney and for possibly endangering the relationship with the US.

Tatsuma:The Palestinian Authority has already declared that Pisgat Ze'ev and Ramot will stay part of the Israeli side of the city if Jerusalem is divided. By the way, both of these are integral parts of Jerusalem, and not 'settlements'.

Then how come that's not the message the world is gathering from this?

They seem to think that these are settlements regardless of the fact that they're in Jerusalem.

Mrtraveler01:Not a new settlement, just expanding an old settlement. Which is contrary to what the International Community wants

The Palestinian Authority has already declared that Pisgat Ze'ev and Ramot will stay part of the Israeli side of the city if Jerusalem is divided. By the way, both of these are integral parts of Jerusalem, and not 'settlements'.

You claimed that Bibi was 'building new settlements', show me one new settlement that was established by his administration.

Both sides of this are wrong lying bloodthirsty freaks of the desert.Neither side deserves a holy land or anything good in life.I hope they nuke each other into oblivion.That said, Bibi Netanyahu is going to wear this mess around his neck like a flaming truck tire.He's being trolled like a boss.

/When either side can present facts that are the truth and both sides STILL look like horrible murderous pigs, you know something bigger is going on here.

I hope not. Bibi's political posturing isn't worth a single drop of our soldiers' blood. He'll only let the ground forces stay in for as long as he can withstand the international backlash, then pull the cord.

DammitIForgotMyLogin:It's interesting to note that the IDF are preparing for their ground offensive by bombing the journalists.

Yes indeed, it has everything to do with the IDF wanted to kill journalists, and not, for example, this (video included)

Footage of a presenter on the Arabic language television station Al-Arabiya apparently confirms that Hamas fired at least one rocket from close to a building used by journalists during the 22-day conflict between Israel and Hamas in the Gaza Strip.

The Israel Defense Forces shelled the building, drawing international condemnation, and television networks with offices in the building denied that rockets had been launched from anywhere nearby.

But the recording, filmed by an Israeli and released Tuesday by Israel's Foreign Ministry, shows Al-Arabiya presenter Hanan Al-Masri saying that a Grad rocket had been fired from a location near the studios at Al-Shuruk tower in Gaza City. Al-Masri did not realize that she had been caught on camera.

Al-Masri, a Gaza resident, has been a reporter for Al-Arabiya for three years. She is filmed discussing other issues until she is apparently distracted by the firing.

"...A rocket from here? It's here," she says and turns to look at a window. "Listen, it's here, below the building..."

The production team tells Al-Masri that a rocket has been fired from a nearby location. She then calls someone and says: "The rocket that was just fired from here is a Grad?... It's as if it was fired from beneath the office. It was very loud. I thought it was bombing but it was a rocket launch."

The Foreign Ministry says the film is proof that Hamas had fired from the area of the studios.

The IDF struck a building housing two international media outlets early Sunday morning, hours after striking another building housing a number of media outlets, the affected media outlets reported. Six journalists were injured in the first strike but no injuries were reported in the second strike.

Sky News Arabia and Al-Arabiya said their offices were hit in the second strike.

The first strike hit a building housing Palestinian Ma'an and Al Quds television stations. Five Al Quds employees and one freelancer were injured in that strike. Iran's PressTV later said the sixth injury was one of its cameramen.

The IDF said the first strike targeted a rooftop "transmission antenna used by Hamas to carry out terror activity."

"The sites hit in Gaza early Sunday included buildings used by Britain's Sky News channel and the Dubai-based pan-Arab broadcaster al-Arabiya, the news organizations reported. At least six journalists were wounded, according to a health ministry spokesman in Gaza quoted by wire services." Link

Slaxl:No military commander would advise giving succor to your enemy, but the Israeli's have done a lot to protect Palestinian civilian

As hundreds of rocket were being fired at the beginning of the week, you had Israeli workers under IDF protection repairing the electricity grid in Gaza. What an awfully genocidal people we are, making sure that the lights are on so they can see the full scope of atrocities!

Basically while rockets were being fired, you had Israeli Electric Company workers on a crane, protected by a huge concrete pane, working to fix the electricity to Gaza, endangering their lives and the lives of the soldiers protecting them to insure that Gaza didn't suffer blackouts.

WebSkipper:BronyMedic: ginandbacon: Tats, 13 children are dead. A pregnant woman was killed.

Shocking. Innocent people would die when terrorist governments hide like cowards behind them, and use them as human meatshields for political gain. At least the Israelis make it a point to attempt to avoid Civilian casualties, not purposefully target them with artillery. You know, like HAMAS.

Curiously enough, I see you aren't making an issue of the fact that their Government has made it a policy to support the shelling of another sovereign nation with mortars and rockets, despite ostensibly holding a peace/cease fire treaty with them.

What you mean, "another sovereign nation," kemosabe?

The Palestian Authority has billions in the bank. If their people are living in a world without power, sewage treatment, infrastructure or other means of life, it is because the PA is using them to market the message that Israel is horrible and should be wiped from the planet during the next war.

Slaxl:ginandbacon: Tatsuma: This morning, Israel sent 117 trucks, hundreds of tons of humanitarian help, in order to alleviate the suffering of civilians suffering in Gaza.

Just because we want to stop Hamas from hurting our civilians doesn't mean we want to hurt theirs.

Tats, 13 children are dead. A pregnant woman was killed. At some point,trucks of food stop making it right.

I think when you see people posing for photos as dead, then coming back to life to go to the next photo shoot, or pictures of dead Palestinian children that prompts outrage at Israel which turn out to be actually a picture of an Israeli child killed by a Palestinian rocket, or pictures of victims of Israeli attacks which actually turn out to be images recycled from earlier in the year in Syria then you lose all respect for any claim made by a Palestinian.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Israel has never done anything bad and never killed children, of course they have but the Palestinians will never get anywhere by lying constantly. Also throwing stones at someone bigger than you doesn't always work out like it did for David. How can people say that Israel are trying to exterminate the Palestinians, in genocide, when they ship in tons of aid supplies? No military commander would advise giving succor to your enemy, but the Israeli's have done a lot to protect Palestinian civilians, over and above anything we've done, over and above anything Palestinians have done. Even when it's been difficult, like when the Palestinians use their own civilians as human shields.

Sometimes I wonder if I fall prey to Israeli propaganda, but I only think that because I can see the Palestinian lies for what they are, so if one side can lie why not the other? But as far as I can see it's just facts.

BronyMedic:ginandbacon: Tats, 13 children are dead. A pregnant woman was killed.

Shocking. Innocent people would die when terrorist governments hide like cowards behind them, and use them as human meatshields for political gain. At least the Israelis make it a point to attempt to avoid Civilian casualties, not purposefully target them with artillery. You know, like HAMAS.

Curiously enough, I see you aren't making an issue of the fact that their Government has made it a policy to support the shelling of another sovereign nation with mortars and rockets, despite ostensibly holding a peace/cease fire treaty with them.