[quote]So with our atomic bombs, jets, and computers we are "gods" compared to lost amazon tribes. So that means we ARE gods?[/quote]

From their frame of reference, maybe.

But you`re talking about omnisicient immortals with undefined superpowers. They would undoubtably be gods from our frame of reference.

I think it`s worth restating that you created the idea of omniscient immortals because omniscient immortals were required to make your previous argument plausible. You resist calling them gods, but that`s just a rebranding without changing the meaning.

[quote]Even if they were free love hippies, the massive imbalance in our societies might ruin us anyway.[/quote]

@Angilion: Quite correct! It would be a HUGE shock to the entire Human race if Space Aliens showed up, even nice ones! That`s the #1 reason given for them "remaining hidden" in UFO Theories, eh?

They *might* only have slightly better technology and done a #1 type trip: but it still would be a shocker. Much more likely they have vastly better tech.

[quote]Again, says who? Who says what can and can`t sustain a completely different form of life?[/quote] Well? Some stars just don`t have ANY planets! For one. I got at least 10 more reasons... And remember: we`re talking about SENTIENT life, not just bacteria.

[quote]Omniscience? I`m bringing technology into it. You don`t think we could develop a technology that could sense motion anywhere in the universe? Give us a billion years, I bet we could. That wouldn`t make us "gods".[/quote]

Why not?

Look at what you`re talking about in order to make your line of argument plausible:

The ability to sense every motion in the universe the instant it happens.

A telepathic connection to all sentient thought.

Travel a billion times faster than light (why did you limit yourself to that? Why not instanteous travel anywhere or omnipresence?)

Immortality.

The ability to hear a mouse fart from the other side of the galaxy.

You`re talking about entities far more powerful than nearly all of the gods imagined by humans, and you`ve only brushed the surface of the abilities you ascribe to them.

"If you`re bringing omniscience into the argument then it obviously becomes a matter of faith because you are talking about the most powerful gods. So it`s outside any rational thought."

Omniscience? I`m bringing technology into it. You don`t think we could develop a technology that could sense motion anywhere in the universe? Give us a billion years, I bet we could. That wouldn`t make us "gods".

Just like if you showed an ipad to someone from a lost amazon tribe they might think we are "gods". Doesn`t make it so.

"they can be seen to have no life-supporting planets from very far away."

Again, says who? Who says what can and can`t sustain a completely different form of life? We can determine what planets can and can`t sustain OUR planet`s life. We can`t possibly make a judgement call on what planets could or couldn`t sustain kinds of life we are completely unaware of. For all we know there is life living in the center of the sun.

"the arguments you are making are extremely weak, certainly far too weak to justify believing against the weight of evidence."

The argument you are making is non-existant because you are making it from a platform of understanding you couldn`t possibly have.

Just like sethdog talking about the amount of planets that can sustain life, you are only picturing life like us. Life that has to drive around looking at planets.

Maybe they have a telepathic connection to all sentient thought. Maybe they can travel a billion times faster than light and live forever. Maybe they can hear a mouse fart from the other side of the galaxy.

[quote]Think of Columbus hitting North America`s shores, eh? Space Aliens are unlikely to be "free love hippies" and MORE likely to resemble Conquistadors... [/quote]

Even if they were free love hippies, the massive imbalance in our societies might ruin us anyway. They would definitely have to have vastly superior technology (to be able to get here) and might well have a better or at least more stable society (to have lasted long enough to develop that technology).

They turn up and boom, everything human is so ridiculously far behind current understanding and technology that it`s useless. Overnight, we have no real scientists, no real engineers, no real doctors, etc.

It would be a bigger difference than us going back in time to the early stone age.

"Holygod" is just a few letters away from "Hollywood"... food for thought?

[quote]these people explore a million stellar systems per year![/quote]

Not THAT unreasonable! One Word: Drones! Send 100K "Survey Drones" out per year and pretty soon you`ll explore 1 million per year! By "soon" I mean within 100 years... more or less... depends how fast they travel...

Anyhow? MOST Stars really don`t merit exploration since they can be seen to have no life-supporting planets from very far away.

Angilion: I think ETI Theory has the Aliens coming from our own galaxy, eh? Inter-Galaxy travel is a whole different question!

Even if they arrived a long time ago? The Earth was TEEMING with life! It`s easy to see that sentient species *might* arise from any life-filled planet. Eventually!

@spannerbulb: Belief in the POSSIBILITY of ETI Aliens is perfectly reasonable.

@Drawman61: I think Hawkins means they won`t have Human interests in mind when they arrive. Think of Columbus hitting North America`s shores, eh? Space Aliens are unlikely to be "free love hippies" and MORE likely to resemble Conquistadors...

[quote]Never once have I said I believe aliens have visited earth, let alone that I have "faith" that they have. I`m just refuting reasons people are giving on why they think it isn`t possible or likely.[/quote]

OK, so you`re arguing for other people`s faith in alien visitation...and maybe your own as well, since you only say you haven`t said you believe, not that you don`t believe.

My point still stands - the arguments you are making are extremely weak, certainly far too weak to justify believing against the weight of evidence.

Let`s assume a huge and incredibly stable society of alien people with technology beyond our imagining. Let`s assume that they are passionately devoted to exploring the universe.

With their huge resources, spectacular technology and dedication to exploring, these people explore a million stellar systems per year! An unreasonably high figure, really.

Their society is so stable and so old that they have been doing this for a billion years!

They have explored a million billion stellar systems!

That would mean they have explored less than one millionth of the observable universe.

Even with such unreasonably improbable assumptions to make it more likely, it`s still extremely unlikely they would even know we were here, let alone visited us. Even if they had looked at this stellar system, it would almost certainly have been long before humans existed.

spanerbulb and Gerry1of1 have already given the main answer to Holygod`s question, but I`ll add something to the rebut Holygod`s further statements.

I agree that it`s *plausible* that *if* other people exist they *might* be exploring the universe and that they *might* be looking for other people, like us. It`s *possible* that they might be a much older species than us and have done a lot more exploring.

Holygod argues that this collection of possibilities is supporting argument for his faith (and yes, it is faith) that aliens visit Earth.

I argue that it`s nothing of the kind and in my next post I`ll show why it isn`t. Be warned - numbers ahead!

Somewhere out in the big wide universe, is a planet orbiting a sun similar to ours, with a tiny minority of it`s population, (who should really be doing something productive), sitting in front of a computer screen arguing the toss about extra-planetary life. Some of them swear that it is not possible and deride the opinions of the rest, because it does not fit in with their childhood-indoctrination. This happened 10 earth-years ago, or maybe in 10 earth-years time. The aforementioned planet will never contact our planet, because it`s too expensive and they are undergoing a financial hiatus, and it`s too far away anyhow.

@HolyGod.. I am not saying that there isn`t advanced life out there, however them finding us is like a needle in a haystack. Yes maybe they do have some mechanism for finding life on other planets that I don`t understand or know about, hence why I am not completely dismissing the idea.

If you took a poll of I-A-B members, I think you` find a lot of people who have seen strange or bizarre things in the sky. What these things actually are is another story, and often the answer is a mundane one. But the fact is that many people see objects that are not familiar or easily identifiable. It`s not uncommon.

You have to be foolish to not think intelligent life exists somewhere out there in the universe HOWEVER... The universe is HUGE and incomprehensible for humans, finding a planet that can sustain life is very very rare, even if we did the chances that life on that planet being more intelligent as we are has very low odds. The universe is huge, and would be so hard to find that life, that is why I don`t believe in UFO`s, however not dismissing it entirely..