Non discriminating discrimination ,is a major factor that one would straight away notice in a enlightenment experience ,or better feel internally ,very very refreshing after being subject to many negative examples that inflict the human being , yet we can ,or need to indulge within these frameworks ,one framework resembles dark clouds ,the other clear blue sky's .

"Satori , brings a better connection between mind body and spirit..." Statements like this cause me some concern. Mind, body and spirit are already the same! Satori is the moment when you finally realize that!

There are no "elements of satori." There is reality to the unfiltered mind. Nothing more!

A Zen parable that I think is important here, as trying to define and describe Zen is an exercise in futility: One day the Master announced that a young monk had reached an advanced state of enlightenment. The news caused some stir. Some of the monks went to see the young monk. "We heard you are enlightened. Is that true?" they asked.

"It is," he replied.

"And how do you feel?"

"As miserable as ever," said the monk.

By the way, Sanchin as a Zen exercise is great! As is washing the dishes, vacuuming the floor, folding laundry. I think it would be referred to as "do-zen" (moving Zen) as opposed to za-zen (sitting Zen). Sorry if that was mentioned before in this thread (if I missed it).

I don't know that I understand any better than the next guy. Nothing more I can really say on the topic. When I paint a picture of water, all I can do is paint the surface of the water to give it "definition" (waves, reflection, all of that watery movement-around-a-rock stuff) - I show the "edge of it" in comparison to everything else, so it can be understood.

Nothing personal ever meant at all ,and because enlightenment is more a rare event in life ,than something quite common to our understanding ,its natural to me over the years to welcome other views .

We now have to get things into there proper order ,and there is one with enlightenment .

As already mentioned there are levels of enlightenment ,a kensho is not a satori ,a satori indicates something deeper ,and we can have a luke warm satori .

We have a before experience ,then we have a enlightenment experience ,then we have a after experience .

This is quite similar to the statement used in Uechi-ryu " The beginning is the end and the end is the beginning "

Its similar but not quite the same .

The young monk indicates nothing of his englightenment content ,other than he's had one verified by the master, then he indicates a typical condition which is taciturn upon a after enquiry by others .

Here is the Budda at the perfect enlightenment stage ,which is not a passive reflection ;not conceptual ,not discursive understanding ,not intellectual,not negative not nihilistic .
That the ushering of enlightenment is accompanied by the feeling of return or rememberance.
It is as though something forces its way into consciousness and consciousness suddenly remembers .

" Through birth and rebirth's endless round ,seeking in vain , I hastened on , to find who framed this edifice ,what misery !-birth incessantly !

This that through many toils I've won - Enough ! why should I make it known by folk with lust and hate consumed ,not this the truth that can be grasped ! against the stream of common thought' deep subtle delicate , unseen 'twill be by passion's slaves cloaked in the murk of ignorance."

Hi Jeff, hows things with yourself ,yes you are quite right its allready present .

"Which brand of Zen do you study " Well thank you very much for the interest .This is why I thought the idea of [before the experience /enlightenment / and after experience . In the before, for me it was just enlightenment never knew of the term Zen at that time ,then in 1968 a karate instructor mentioned the word Zen quite often ,which tweeked my further interest ,and eventually came across the concept of Sanchin as a Zen kata ,thats really why I came over to Uechi-ryu for Sanchin .

So the brand is Sanchin first and foremost .at first for years every workout was devoted to just Sanchin never really looked at anything else Zen based or of a spiritual nature concentrated totally on Sanchin ,all my focus was on Sanchin . hope that helps your question .

What I meant with the Budda and the methods ,which I failed to indicate was ;within Buddhism, for all coming down to us ,and for the first to enlightenment thats what I meant ,I also realise there are counter claim's to things of enlightenment .

But here we need to tred carefully ,such as many could have had some type of level of enlightenment well before the Budda, yet the enlightenment objectives were totally different such as a union with Brama [God] etc.
Also we have to take into account the Budda position on the transmigration of soul's and the atman in contrast to Hinduism ,at this point there is a departure line on factors of enlightenment .

Max, thanks for the reply. I apologize, but I am not sure I know what you mean here:

maxwell ainley wrote:

Well thank you very much for the interest .This is why I thought the idea of [before the experience /enlightenment / and after experience .

I have a HUGE headache today, so am not thinking as good as I could. Are you saying you feel you have achieved a certain level of enlightenment?

Jeff Cook

I think really its a taboo to say" I am enlightened etc, but many have said it over the centuries ,when I had a major experience in 77 I ran the two miles or so to relate the experience to a close friend ,who acknowledged my experience ,but upon this acceptance ,I made the obvious mistake that others would be the same ,they were not ,then my close friend started to doubt me ,I learned to keep my own council and never mention it ,but in rare moments ,when I first came on these forums I made a Ref ;to it but in all honesty I never ever would make Ref to it .
Yes you could say a level back then in 77 ,so in relationship to words coming from each of the three [before] /the experience / and afterwards , it depends were all your talk is coming from ,obviously less can be related in and within the experience phaze ,yet more wisdom will be ,or can be evdant within language ,chit chat etc, in the afterwards phaze ,provided one matures the experiences .

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