I've never seen a fish turn human. You ask me to believe this stuff and yet you're so adamantly convinced I'm wrong. You seem to believe as blindly as you accuse me of.

Hi, junebug. The bolded is a bit of a trigger for me, so please forgive me getting a bit off topic.

I hope you were joking; such things can be difficult to judge across the wilderness of the internet. You do realize that is a creationist parody of how evolution actually works? You never will see anything like that, nor has anything like that been observed in nature. If it were, it would be evidence against evolution as it's currently constituted and for special creation.

Star Stuff and others have given you some excellent references on what evolutionary theory actually says; please pursue them when you have time.

That said, I find your particular take on Christianity far less threatening than the would-be Taliban here in the US. Like the folks who keep pushing at the Constitutional barriers between religious and governmental power. This is an ongoing issue, and I'm glad it concerns you too, because the wanna-be Christian theocrats do not reflect well on religion in general and Christianity in particular.

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Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.--Marcus Aurelius

You are very religious, but you do not conform to an organized religion.

Why must you insult me?

I didn't. I am sorry you look at it that way. You believe in god. Thus, by the definition of the word "religious" you are in fact religious. All that fluff about being spiritual is fine. But you are religious.

It is pointless to argue with the SBNR, they make up their own rules, concepts and a lot of other stuff that has a meaning only in the individual's mind. It is almost like saying that I am a fan of soccer, but I dont follow any club/country/series, I just love the design of the balls[1]

Hope this day finds you doing well... prepare yourself so you can be a rainbow in somebody else's cloud. Somebody who may not look like you. May not call God the same name you call God - if they call God at all. I may not dance your dances or speak your language. But be a blessing to somebody. Maya

I didn't. I am sorry you look at it that way. You believe in god. Thus, by the definition of the word "religious" you are in fact religious. All that fluff about being spiritual is fine. But you are religious.

Hello, yes ya did. I just got done saying it offends me;that I get defensive;and you just went ahead and did it anyway. Argue with that.

In some regards, I am sure. When it comes to whether you are religious, not so much.

That is a very arrogant thing to say screwey.

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Sorry. gotta go. I'll get to the rest tomorrow. sleep tight junbug.

Wow that's the nicest thing you've said all day!

Good Morning!

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Hope this day finds you doing well... prepare yourself so you can be a rainbow in somebody else's cloud. Somebody who may not look like you. May not call God the same name you call God - if they call God at all. I may not dance your dances or speak your language. But be a blessing to somebody. Maya

Hope this day finds you doing well... prepare yourself so you can be a rainbow in somebody else's cloud. Somebody who may not look like you. May not call God the same name you call God - if they call God at all. I may not dance your dances or speak your language. But be a blessing to somebody. Maya

The real question here Junebug, is whether or not you are willing to seek the truth. The truth about evolution, the truth about the origins of life, the truth about reality. If you are, that's great. If not, that's fine too. There are many who dont.

I've never seen a fish turn human. You ask me to believe this stuff and yet you're so adamantly convinced I'm wrong. You seem to believe as blindly as you accuse me of.

Hi, junebug. The bolded is a bit of a trigger for me, so please forgive me getting a bit off topic.

I hope you were joking; such things can be difficult to judge across the wilderness of the internet. You do realize that is a creationist parody of how evolution actually works? You never will see anything like that, nor has anything like that been observed in nature. If it were, it would be evidence against evolution as it's currently constituted and for special creation.

You guys are right I don't know as much about science as you all, I've studied God. So yal can be the scientific experts, and I'll be this humble little ole gal from the Appalachians that knows a little bit about God.

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That said, I find your particular take on Christianity far less threatening than the would-be Taliban here in the US. Like the folks who keep pushing at the Constitutional barriers between religious and governmental power. This is an ongoing issue, and I'm glad it concerns you too, because the wanna-be Christian theocrats do not reflect well on religion in general and Christianity in particular.

My "take" on God is wider and deeper than Christianity. Sometimes I think that it's all the dividing of beliefs that keep us from our full potential. If you take all the bad stuff from all the thousands of beliefs out there what you're left with is something , chills,speechless,Utopia!

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Hope this day finds you doing well... prepare yourself so you can be a rainbow in somebody else's cloud. Somebody who may not look like you. May not call God the same name you call God - if they call God at all. I may not dance your dances or speak your language. But be a blessing to somebody. Maya

I've been busy reading all the replies to my post and I will have to say that you guys raise incredibly valid points. I do not disagree that religion can be dangerous. I guess that's why I get defensive when someone calls me religious. I don't feel very dangerous. IMO The difference in you and me is I see it all as mankind's failure to God, you see it as God's.

Religion is used by people for all sorts of reasons. That's why Christianity is so popular. Want to justify killing your enemies? Christianity. Want to justify loving your enemies? Christianity. Want to justify slavery? Christianity. Want to justify no slavery? Christianity. That's what you have to start understanding Junebug. Religion is what people use to support what they already think. You use your religion to support the belief that love is great and that people should help each other out. Other people use it for other things. It's all still religion. You think your religion is good for everyone. Everyone else does the same thing.

I guess that's why I can believe He loves us when you can not even believe God's real and use the pain and suffering in the world to promote that belief.

You are practicing cognitive dissonance. It makes you uneasy to see the suffering in the world around us and pair that with the idea that God loves everyone. So you excuse it away with irrational stuff like 'this mess isn't God's will', when that is clearly an illogical stance. Do you really sit there and imagine God is crying about what's going on down here? If it's not his will, why doesn't he fix it? Are you saying the horrors that would come from FIXING the problems with the world are so bad that God would rather leave us alone? That God would cry MORE if he stopped kids from starving?

That there are people out there like myself that are spiritual with no attachments to "organized religion."

And that's just wrong. You appear to be a Christian, and you just use your religion for what you see as doing good for the world. Other people use it for other things. You rail against the people who use the same religion as you for bad things. That's fine. But call it like it is. There was a scene from 'A Few Good Men' that comes to mind. When Jack and Danny were talking at the bar and Jack says, "Don't lump me in with people like Jessup just because we wear the same uniform." You wear the same uniform as other Christians, you're just different in the way you use it.

May I ask you all a question? Guess I just did, since God doesn't exist and He's not going to save us,because He's not there, How did we get in this mess and How are we going to get out? Two Questions, sorry.

What mess are you talking about? I love this world. I have a great life. I wouldn't trade it for anything.

The only way to fix the things about this world that are a mess is with thinking people coming up with new ideas and abandoning ancient superstitious nonsense. Accepting that the world is the way it is, is the first step in solving the problems we face. Putting our hands together and bowing our heads to telepathically communicate with an invisible sky man doesn't seem to be working.

Like you, atheists think that the problems of the world need to be solved by humans. We think this because we think there's nothing out there that's going to help us. You, on the other hand, think there IS something out there that COULD help us, but chooses not to. Let me use an analogy to show you what its like...

What if I believed there was a person that walked around behind you all day that sometimes helped you out and sometimes didn't, but really, really loved you and wanted to keep you safe. I kept telling you that I see this person behind you, but every time you look for it, you can't see it. So you tell me there's no person and I tell you there is. One day, we're walking down the street and you fall into a hole and break your leg. You look up at me from the hole and ask why the person didn't stop you from walking into the hole, and I tell you that 'it wasn't his will that you fell into the hole', and that 'he's crying about you falling into the hole' and that 'the world would be much worse off if you hadn't fallen into the hole'. Is that a respectable answer? Seriously... is it? This is what you tell us with your God.

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Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Hello, yes ya did. I just got done saying it offends me;that I get defensive;and you just went ahead and did it anyway. Argue with that.

Maybe that's something you ought to work on, then. If you're going to keep holding such strong religious beliefs, then the least you could do would be to accept the label when people observe this about you.

Science isn't something to "know about" (like cars), it's a method of knowing & understanding....well....everything. It is the best tool we've got, and it is open to any & all observable phenomena. The reason why god does not come up on the radar of any scientific inquiry is that a god (especially the cartoon character of the Abrahamic god) doesn't exist. Gods were and are humanity's first guess as an explanation. This guess was and is born out of ignorance and superstition.

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I've studied God.

I don't mean to be abrasive when I say this, but I really wish you could see and appreciate just how vacuous that statement is. Allow me to change just one word of your three-word statement: "I've studied Zeus" "I've studied Superman" "I've studied astrology" "I've studied Voodoo magic" "I've studied Santa Claus" "I've studied unicorns". You get the picture. I'm reminded of another saying: "Being a theologian is like being a professional air guitarist."

How did you go about "studying" this god of yours?

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So y'all can be the scientific experts, and I'll be this humble little ole gal from the Appalachians that knows a little bit about God.

And that's it? You're not prepared to move any further than that? That is the epitome of being closed minded.

If you live in the Appalachians, I'm going to suggest that because you live in a part of the States which is steeped in Christianity, that the idea of proclaiming to not having god belief for you is somewhat frightening. Is there any truth in that?

We are here because one odd group of fishes had a peculiar fin anatomy that could transform into legs for terrestrial creatures; because the earth never froze entirely during an ice age; because a small and tenuous species, arising in Africa a quarter of a million years ago, has managed, so far, to survive by hook and by crook. We may yearn for a 'higher' answer, but none exists. (Stephen Jay Gould)

I've never seen a fish turn human. You ask me to believe this stuff and yet you're so adamantly convinced I'm wrong. You seem to believe as blindly as you accuse me of.

I do feel we both are critical thinkers......

Oh my, Junebug, you DO make me laugh! "Never seen fish turn human"....no, nobody has. I REALY hope that that was you being silly, and that that wasn't your real understanding of evolution.

Still, "never seen a fish turn human", so you don't believe it happens. Cool. Yet.....did you see your god create man? Create ANYTHING? No, of course not. And nor do you have any evidence it did. But there is a LOT of evidence for evolution....you just choose not to go look at it.

Still waiting for your evidence for all those statements you made the other day.

You guys are right I don't know as much about science as you all, I've studied God. So yal can be the scientific experts, and I'll be this humble little ole gal from the Appalachians that knows a little bit about God.

I am really disappointed in that. There is no reason why you should not learn more facts and explanations about the world; there is nothing to be pleased or even satisfied about if you do not know how things work and why things happen.

I don't see you as "humble"; I see you as someone who has not yet reached her potential.

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My "take" on God is wider and deeper than Christianity. Sometimes I think that it's all the . If you take all the bad stuff from all the thousands of beliefs out there what you're left with is something, Utopia!

It is not "the dividing of beliefs that keep us from our full potential" it is belief itself. If you admit there is a problem with belief, and if you are a believer, then you are a part of the problem that you describe.

If you have kids and you teach them about magic and "Pie in the sky when you die." You are preventing them from knowing how the world really is and, they lose a little of the true beauty that is around us.

The Utopia that you describe is one free of religion, free of preachers who do nothing but take your money and feed you fairy tales, free of idiot beliefs (auras, crystal healing, aromatherapy, etc.) and one where we understand each other. This is atheism.

Why not join us for a better world?

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Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

The real question here Junebug, is whether or not you are willing to seek the truth. The truth about evolution, the truth about the origins of life, the truth about reality. If you are, that's great. If not, that's fine too. There are many who dont.

So which is it? Truth, or blinders?

I am willing to explore other ideas. I'll start studying more science if you'll flatter my idea. Like I've always thought the answer will be found by the joining of the scientific mind and spiritual mind.

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Hope this day finds you doing well... prepare yourself so you can be a rainbow in somebody else's cloud. Somebody who may not look like you. May not call God the same name you call God - if they call God at all. I may not dance your dances or speak your language. But be a blessing to somebody. Maya

I am willing to explore other ideas. I'll start studying more science if you'll flatter my idea. Like I've always thought the answer will be found by the joining of the scientific mind and spiritual mind.

At the risk of sounding rigid, No No No! Please don't deceive yourself that the touchy feely idea of "meeting in the middle" leads one to truth. There is no such thing as a "spiritual mind" any more than there is a "healing crystal mind". Yes, we will listen to anything you have to say, but if it is asserted without good evidence, it may be dismissed. While science draws conclusions from the evidence at hand, you seem to prefer to find evidence for a conclusion. As I've said before, that is a backwards approach to understanding the world & reality.

When two opposite points of view are expressed with equal intensity, the truth does not necessarily lie exactly halfway between them. It is possible for one side to be simply wrong. (Richard Dawkins)

Hey guys and gals, I can see you care as much about me as I care about you.

Let me really try to explain.

My mind was so sad. I didn't have that happy little childhood. I lived most of my life wishing I had never been born. I tried not believing in god, and no it wasn't scary, that didn't help. Learning how to trust in god calmed my mInd, gave me peace within.

I did not need him to come down here and show himself; I felt his presence there.

Oh don't worry I had no problem finding g other strays and we looked out for each other.

Tried therapy too. What a joke.

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Hope this day finds you doing well... prepare yourself so you can be a rainbow in somebody else's cloud. Somebody who may not look like you. May not call God the same name you call God - if they call God at all. I may not dance your dances or speak your language. But be a blessing to somebody. Maya

Hope this day finds you doing well... prepare yourself so you can be a rainbow in somebody else's cloud. Somebody who may not look like you. May not call God the same name you call God - if they call God at all. I may not dance your dances or speak your language. But be a blessing to somebody. Maya

My mind was so sad. I didn't have that happy little childhood. I lived most of my life wishing I had never been born. I tried not believing in god, and no it wasn't scary, that didn't help. Learning how to trust in god calmed my mInd, gave me peace within.

I did not need him to come down here and show himself; I felt his presence there.

Oh don't worry I had no problem finding g other strays and we looked out for each other.

Tried therapy too. What a joke.

Allow me to change just one word in that, and see how it sounds:

My mind was so sad. I didn't have that happy little childhood. I lived most of my life wishing I had never been born. I tried not taking heroin, and no it wasn't scary, that didn't help. Learning how to trust in heroin calmed my mind, gave me peace within.

Oh don't worry I had no problem finding other users and we looked out for each other.

Tried therapy too. What a joke.

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You seem to be saying that god-belief was/is useful, and there's no way anyone can argue against that; it can & does provide for a sense of belonging & community which we social humans crave, but this has got nothing to do with its truth factor, which is what we here are concerned about.

It is not "the dividing of beliefs that keep us from our full potential" it is belief itself.

Indeed.

"What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the wish to find out, which is the exact opposite." (Bertrand Russell)

There's an old Tanya Tucker song called "Strong Enough to Bend", love the philosophy behind the song.

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Hope this day finds you doing well... prepare yourself so you can be a rainbow in somebody else's cloud. Somebody who may not look like you. May not call God the same name you call God - if they call God at all. I may not dance your dances or speak your language. But be a blessing to somebody. Maya

My mind was so sad. I didn't have that happy little childhood. I lived most of my life wishing I had never been born. I tried not taking heroin, and no it wasn't scary, that didn't help. Learning how to trust in heroin calmed my mind, gave me peace within.

Oh don't worry I had no problem finding other users and we looked out for each other.

I've never done heroin Starship.I had a son to raise.You contradicted yourself anyway. You can't say heroin did not help the heroin did help. That's like saying I said I tried atheism and it worked. That is not what I said.

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You seem to be saying that god-belief was/is useful, and there's no way anyone can argue against that; it can & does provide for a sense of belonging & community which we social humans crave, but this has got nothing to do with its truth factor, which is what we here are concerned about.

That is what I'm saying. There is reason we all have different interest and study different things. It could be that we did come from the scientific explanation and still have a spiritual purpose to our lives.

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Hope this day finds you doing well... prepare yourself so you can be a rainbow in somebody else's cloud. Somebody who may not look like you. May not call God the same name you call God - if they call God at all. I may not dance your dances or speak your language. But be a blessing to somebody. Maya

There's a tree out in the backyardThat never has been broken by the windAnd the reason its still standingIt was strong enough to bend

For years, we have stayed togetherAs lovers and as friendsWhat we have will last foreverIf we're strong enough to bend

When you say something that you can't take backBig wind blows and you hear a little crackWhen you say "Hey well I might be wrong"You can sway with the wind till the storm is goneSway with the wind till the storm is gone

Like a tree out in the backyardThat never has been broken by the windOur love will last foreverIf we're strong enough to bend

When you start thinkin' that you know it allBig wind blows and a branch will fallWhen you say "Hey this job takes two"We can sway with the wind till the skies turn blueSway with the wind till the skies turn blue

Like a tree out in the backyardThat never has been broken by the windOur love will last forever if we're strong enough to bendOur love will last forever if we're strong enough to bend.

Cowboylyrics.com

This song is clearly about a relationship that was successful because they were "Strong Enough to Bend".

The tree still stands because it's "Strong Enough to Bend".

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Hope this day finds you doing well... prepare yourself so you can be a rainbow in somebody else's cloud. Somebody who may not look like you. May not call God the same name you call God - if they call God at all. I may not dance your dances or speak your language. But be a blessing to somebody. Maya

I've never seen a fish turn human. You ask me to believe this stuff and yet you're so adamantly convinced I'm wrong. You seem to believe as blindly as you accuse me of.

Exacty what do you think evolution is? This gets me thinking of a fish "popping out" legs and walking on land. Is that close to what you imagine it is? If so, you really need to read a science book on the subject. Go to the libaray, reseach online, buy a book off of amazon.com. It's so easy nowadays to research this subject.

(as an aside, am I suppose to imagine a texan accent with your voice? the "yal" in your posts gets me thinking of that)

Science isn't something to "know about" (like cars), it's a method of knowing & understanding....well....everything. It is the best tool we've got, and it is open to any & all observable phenomena.

Star Stuff - I love this definition/description of science. I even looked at Webster's and Wikipedia, and you exceeded the clarity of the go-to sources.

I'm sorry to go off topic, but I found myself thinking about this today, and concluding that the problem that we have in the US with science education is that, for the most part, this is NOT what is taught. It is not what I was taught.

But my daughter is in a really fabulous school, and I *think* this is what she is being taught.

I kind of yawned at the beginning of the year when I found out that the first science topic in first grade was the 5 senses. That seemed like a pre-school topic to me.

But then they used that first topic to build on everything else they did. The next topic was solids, liquids, gases.

In the late fall, they had a science curriculum night in her first grade classroom. Parents and kids came in together, and the kids got to show the parents what they were learning. The night before curriculum night, my daughter announced that we were going to have root beer floats in class for curriculum night. 6 year olds often misunderstand, and I tried to explain to her that we were not going to have root beer floats during our curriculum night activity.

But I was wrong.

Each kid got a scoop of ice cream, and while it was being scooped, discussed whether it was a solid or a liquid. They were asked to speculate what they thought would happen when the root beer was added to the ice cream. Then the root beer when it. Liquid. It turned some of the ice cream liquid, but some remained solid. The carbonation caused bubbles, and the students really experienced the concept of "gas."

The students then had to write down what they observed. What was sold, gas, liquid? What did they see? Hear? Smell? Taste? Feel? The teachers wandered from table to table, looking at what the 6 year olds were writing down. She then asked them to share their observations with their classmates as they enjoyed consuming their root beer floats. What changed? When did it change? Why did it change?

And the 6 year olds got into a lively debate about the ice cream itself. It was a solid at first, they all agreed. Then some of it, (sometimes all of it) became liquid. What are the characteristics of a solid? Of a liquid? The kids stirred their floats with long spoons and straws, and examined the ice cream and genuinely debated the blurred lines between a liquid and a solid. They defended their positions passionately. The teachers did not "give the right answer." Instead, they let the students explore the ambiguity, and asked them to support their interpretations. "It is a liquid! It is dripping You can pour it! You can pour liquids so it is a liquid!" "No! It is still a solid! Look. That is a big solid lump in the middle!" The teachers nodded and agreed that they were accurately describing the characteristics of solids and liquids, and accurately describing the characteristics of their ice cream, and that it was possible to defend each interpretation. "Good observation!" The teachers would say. "Write that down."

I thought it was an amazing activity. Ask a question. Hypothesize. Test it. Record the data you observe. Report back. Defend your interpretations of the data. Compare your results with the results of others who conducted the same experiment. Were the results the same? What factors impacted on the slight variation in results? (Some consumed the root beer float so fast that the ice cream had little time to melt.) Was your hypothesis correct?

It was the scientific method, in an activity that was engaging and appropriate for 6 year olds. And they have been doing experiments over and over and over all year. At this point in the school year, they need to write down their hypothesis first, before conducting the experiment, and then write down their observations. By the end of first grade, the scientific method is going to be second nature for these kids.

And that is science.

@Junebug - I apologize for going so far off topic in your thread. And I am sorry that you have had so much pain in your life. I am certain that there are many online communities where you will find members who with sympathize and empathize and provide you with support.

You are welcome here, but you are not going to find many here who respond to you with sympathy or empathy. You will find a lot of people who challenge you, and ask you to defend your beliefs with evidence. But if you feel like folks are ganging up on you, alert a guide or a mod or post your concerns in the Shelter.

@Junebug: I am sorry that you have had so much pain in your life. I am certain that there are many online communities where you will find members who with sympathize and empathize and provide you with support.

You are welcome here, but you are not going to find many here who respond to you with sympathy or empathy. You will find a lot of people who challenge you, and ask you to defend your beliefs with evidence. But if you feel like folks are ganging up on you, alert a guide or a mod or post your concerns in the Shelter.

I don't think that's true. If there's a thread where that is the focus, I suspect that she'll get lots of sympathy & empathy, but if the focus is extraordinary supernatural claims, then that ought to be the focus.