You don't get open for 9 receptions against that secondary if you "can't get open."

You also don't get it without CJ on the other side, which Titus (and you) never understood. I love how Calvin 'dogs it' in your mind but Titus disappeared for long stretches and games at a time and you blame the coaching staff.

_________________"Good teams don't worry about a whole lot of stuff. They travel, they play, they win. And it doesn't matter where they go, what the time block is, all those kinds of things. They never seem to bother teams that play well, and we want to be one of those teams." -Jim Caldwell

February 7th, 2013, 7:15 pm

wjb21ndtown

Re: Lions place Titus Young on IR

thelomasbrowns wrote:

wjb21ndtown wrote:

You don't get open for 9 receptions against that secondary if you "can't get open."

You also don't get it without CJ on the other side, which Titus (and you) never understood. I love how Calvin 'dogs it' in your mind but Titus disappeared for long stretches and games at a time and you blame the coaching staff.

Again...THAT'S NOT THE DAMN POINT.

Why bring up all this other BS? This is about Titus being better than Nate, and Titus getting screwed, PERIOD. Why bring up all this other nonsense?

February 7th, 2013, 7:19 pm

conversion02

RIP Killer

Joined: January 26th, 2005, 9:34 pmPosts: 10946Location: Sycamore, IL

Re: Lions place Titus Young on IR

wjb21ndtown wrote:

thelomasbrowns wrote:

wjb21ndtown wrote:

You don't get open for 9 receptions against that secondary if you "can't get open."

You also don't get it without CJ on the other side, which Titus (and you) never understood. I love how Calvin 'dogs it' in your mind but Titus disappeared for long stretches and games at a time and you blame the coaching staff.

Again...THAT'S NOT THE DAMN POINT.

Why bring up all this other BS? This is about Titus being better than Nate, and Titus getting screwed, PERIOD. Why bring up all this other nonsense?

Actually, it's not nonsense, because you mention it ALL the time. However, I do agree.

Either way, Titus getting screwed? You really support his little kiddy pu$$y badonkadonk behavior? For changing his name to "Young Sr" and trying to act like he's grown up so much and all that, he is still a douche bag. He's a whiner with his hand out. I hope he gets destroyed by SF next season, see how hard he plays after that first game when they knock the piss out of him.

Not going to get into this argument again, but I will say again, that watching the games tapes, the guy was not good at getting open. Titus may have had some talent and had speed, but it was obvious he lacked desire, passion, the overall ability to run a quality route, etc.

I remember one game where he completely half assed a td catch at the goal line (40 yard bomb where he had the defender beat) and I believe it ended up costing us the game. He has always acted like its behind him to give 100% on balls, like taking the big hit, diving for a ball, jumping up in the air and getting flipped over, etc. He rarely attempted a real block.

The guy simply did not look like a #2 WR when he was out there, whether the ball was coming to him or not; ever since day one... You may disagree with that, but it's a perception I had all year watching the games and replays of the games

I look at games like the Seattle game, or even his first game in the NFL and see him more or less dominate and can't understand why some people say he can't get open.

How many games did he have like that? 2? That's exactly what I'm talking about. He had talent, but, as I said, it was never remotely consistent. For all the reasons I said, he never made anyone believe he was a legit #2, since he never earned anything.

FYI, you say Nate couldn't get open and was slow, but he had 100 yard games too. Why the double standard? I'm not defending Nate, but I sure as hell won't defend TY, because he purposely hurt the team Chick Gandil style (the famous black sox scandal)

Nate used offensive PI to get open, and he got open on little BS routes. 5 yard out routes, little BS where he pushed off. Titus got open with his speed. IMO Titus could get open with a quick move and straight speed virtually any time you asked him to, unless they wanted to double cover him. He had 10 TDs in 1/2 years of limited use, the endzone is the toughest place to get open. He had 6 games with 5+ receptions and NINE (9) receptions against Seattle, a vg secondary. You don't get open for 9 receptions against that secondary if you "can't get open."

Look at the 2011 stats, Titus had twice as many TD's, (6 to Nates 3) and two more yards per catch, with HALF the targets, HALF. That's ridiculous.

That's some fancy math you got there, 84 is far from half of 110. I agree Titus was and is even more so now more athletic than Nate, but his stats were not so much better than Nate's in 2011. Nate may have caught a lot of short passes, but he still did something with them after the catch. Nate had the same amount of receptions for 20+ yards, 3 more 1st downs, almost 300 more yards after the catch, and caught a higher percentage of his targets. Titus has been a little better than Nate in average, but Nate was considered a leader in the locker room and got the nod to start.

The other issue is Titus was getting the same amount of targets Nate would have got once Nate went down. If Titus hadn't acted like an rectum towards the end of the season he probably would have had 90-100 targets which is all your going to get in Linehan's offense. Stafford looks for Calvin then the TE before going to the next receiver, so Titus was getting treated the same way any WR2 would be treated on the team once Nate was out.

February 7th, 2013, 7:41 pm

wjb21ndtown

Re: Lions place Titus Young on IR

conversion02 wrote:

wjb21ndtown wrote:

thelomasbrowns wrote:

wjb21ndtown wrote:

You don't get open for 9 receptions against that secondary if you "can't get open."

You also don't get it without CJ on the other side, which Titus (and you) never understood. I love how Calvin 'dogs it' in your mind but Titus disappeared for long stretches and games at a time and you blame the coaching staff.

Again...THAT'S NOT THE DAMN POINT.

Why bring up all this other BS? This is about Titus being better than Nate, and Titus getting screwed, PERIOD. Why bring up all this other nonsense?

Actually, it's not nonsense, because you mention it ALL the time. However, I do agree.

Either way, Titus getting screwed? You really support his little kiddy pu$$y badonkadonk behavior? For changing his name to "Young Sr" and trying to act like he's grown up so much and all that, he is still a douche bag. He's a whiner with his hand out. I hope he gets destroyed by SF next season, see how hard he plays after that first game when they knock the piss out of him.

I don't argue that CJ doesn't benefit Titus, ever. That's what Lomas is saying... Who gives a chit? It's not part of the discussion, why bring it up? Just to say it?

CO2, my point is, he should have been given more before he acted like an idiot. The Sr. thing is over-blown, who cares? You guys say that you can't "anoint him" until he earns it, but I say you "can't punish him" until you've given him something. If we gave him the #2 spot when he deserved it (basically after game 1 we should have begun grooming him to be our #2, Nate caught 1 catch that game and 1 catch the following week), then we could have said... Well, you screwed up... Now we're taking this opportunity away from you until you earn it back. We gave the kid nothing, and had no tools to punish him with.

You don't get open for 9 receptions against that secondary if you "can't get open."

You also don't get it without CJ on the other side, which Titus (and you) never understood. I love how Calvin 'dogs it' in your mind but Titus disappeared for long stretches and games at a time and you blame the coaching staff.

Again...THAT'S NOT THE DAMN POINT.

Why bring up all this other BS? This is about Titus being better than Nate, and Titus getting screwed, PERIOD. Why bring up all this other nonsense?

Actually, it's not nonsense, because you mention it ALL the time. However, I do agree.

Either way, Titus getting screwed? You really support his little kiddy pu$$y badonkadonk behavior? For changing his name to "Young Sr" and trying to act like he's grown up so much and all that, he is still a douche bag. He's a whiner with his hand out. I hope he gets destroyed by SF next season, see how hard he plays after that first game when they knock the piss out of him.

I don't argue that CJ doesn't benefit Titus, ever. That's what Lomas is saying... Who gives a chit? It's not part of the discussion, why bring it up? Just to say it?

CO2, my point is, he should have been given more before he acted like an idiot. The Sr. thing is over-blown, who cares? You guys say that you can't "anoint him" until he earns it, but I say you "can't punish him" until you've given him something. If we gave him the #2 spot when he deserved it (basically after game 1 we should have begun grooming him to be our #2, Nate caught 1 catch that game and 1 catch the following week), then we could have said... Well, you screwed up... Now we're taking this opportunity away from you until you earn it back. We gave the kid nothing, and had no tools to punish him with.

What are you talking about? Nate has only had 4 games with one reception since Titus got to DET and none of them happened back to back.

February 7th, 2013, 7:55 pm

wjb21ndtown

Re: Lions place Titus Young on IR

Sorry Rao... Clicked the wrong year... 2010 Nate started the year with two single reception games.

Sorry Rao... Clicked the wrong year... 2010 Nate started the year with two single reception games.

That makes more sense. I really think your overstating Titus's ability, he's a one trick pony, all he does is streak down the field and catch a long pass then does very little the rest of the game. He doesn't make any yards after the catch, so he's worthless in short passes and doesn't catch at a better rate than Nate. I think Nate was falling off this last season but he wasn't playing any worse than Titus before his injury. Look at Titus's big games and almost all of them show him getting half his yards in one reception and very little on the rest.

February 7th, 2013, 8:09 pm

wjb21ndtown

Re: Lions place Titus Young on IR

rao wrote:

wjb21ndtown wrote:

Sorry Rao... Clicked the wrong year... 2010 Nate started the year with two single reception games.

That makes more sense. I really think your overstating Titus's ability, he's a one trick pony, all he does is streak down the field and catch a long pass then does very little the rest of the game. He doesn't make any yards after the catch, so he's worthless in short passes and doesn't catch at a better rate than Nate. I think Nate was falling off this last season but he wasn't playing any worse than Titus before his injury. Look at Titus's big games and almost all of them show him getting half his yards in one reception and very little on the rest.

It's not that I over-state his ability, I just think that's EXACTLY what we need out of our #2 WR. Some one to stretch the field and take pressure off of CJ deep. This team is dying for that and craving it. That's what we brought Nate in here to do, and he's NEVER been able to do it. Then we get this guy who is great at exactly that... we get this damn 200mph Lambo, and we keep it in the garage and stick him in the slot where he's relegated to... what's that? SHORT PASSES that even you say he's worthless at.

That's why I say we mis-used him. That's why I say he should have been our #2. It would have put Nate in the slot where he belongs, and teams would have had to pick who they were going to double deep, Titus or CJ and 90% of the time Titus is going to be single covered. Titus proved time and time again that he's good at positioning himself down field and making the grab. That's what he wants to do, that's what he's good at, and we refused to use him that way.

Sorry Rao... Clicked the wrong year... 2010 Nate started the year with two single reception games.

That makes more sense. I really think your overstating Titus's ability, he's a one trick pony, all he does is streak down the field and catch a long pass then does very little the rest of the game. He doesn't make any yards after the catch, so he's worthless in short passes and doesn't catch at a better rate than Nate. I think Nate was falling off this last season but he wasn't playing any worse than Titus before his injury. Look at Titus's big games and almost all of them show him getting half his yards in one reception and very little on the rest.

It's not that I over-state his ability, I just think that's EXACTLY what we need out of our #2 WR. Some one to stretch the field and take pressure off of CJ deep. This team is dying for that and craving it. That's what we brought Nate in here to do, and he's NEVER been able to do it. Then we get this guy who is great at exactly that... we get this damn 200mph Lambo, and we keep it in the garage and stick him in the slot where he's relegated to... what's that? SHORT PASSES that even you say he's worthless at.

That's why I say we mis-used him. That's why I say he should have been our #2. It would have put Nate in the slot where he belongs, and teams would have had to pick who they were going to double deep, Titus or CJ and 90% of the time Titus is going to be single covered. Titus proved time and time again that he's good at positioning himself down field and making the grab. That's what he wants to do, that's what he's good at, and we refused to use him that way.

I don't think it was so much where he was lined up as much as it was the time that Stafford had to throw. A lot of the season they had CJ working from the slot and that would have put Titus outside quite a bit even when Nate was playing. It's hard to throw the deep route to Titus if the pocket isn't there to step into. I agree Titus is what they need as a WR2, but they need to fix that line to make it viable. IMO it also has a lot to do with Stafford, I think he looks for Calvin first every play and that means he misses the times other receivers get open early on a route.

Titus just is not that special of a player, he has a skill set that can be found again probably at a much later spot in the draft. He'll be easy to replace, but we won't see it unless they fix this line and Stafford learns to spread the ball to more than CJ and Pett/Scheff.

All these issues are normal with a Young QB or a bottom tier team. These issues could have happened on any team and I'm sure similar things have happened on other teams. Titus's immaturity was the sole reason this happened. The guy isn't a special talent, he's just small and fast with decent hands which is hardly rare. He should have sucked it up, played out the season and either requested a trade or walked once his contract was over.

I haven't really weighed in on this because I think Titus is a waste of space, but I decided to actually look up the stats. wjb where are you getting your numbers from? I keep see you saying things like Titus got half the targets that Nate did, and that's simply not true. In 2011 Nate had 110 targets, and Titus had 84. That's 76%. Not even close to half. Plus Nate was the #2 starter so he should have gotten more targets. In 2012 the stats widened a bit with Nate getting 43 to Titus' 29 (until Nate got hurt), but even that is still 67%. Again, not even close to half. Over the two seasons, Titus had 73.85% as many targets as Nate. NOT HALF. NOT HALF.

Also I checked how many of those targets were caught by each guy. Titus caught 60% of his targets, while Nate caught 65%.

You're correct that Titus had more touchdowns, and their yardage was about equal.

Your assertion that Titus is more of a long ball threat is true given their avg. yds per reception in 2011 & 2012 (Titus: 11.6 & 12.6; Nate: 8.9 & 10.4).

I don't think there's any doubt that Titus had more raw talent than Nate. He does. But taking a look at what he did with the opportunities (targets) he got, he wasn't head & shoulders above Nate. Add in the fact that he wasn't exactly a great teammate, and I can see why they went with Nate as a starter. He's a known commodity, a good teammate, and leads by example. Being a good locker room presence does matter, especially when the performance of two players is pretty close.

If Titus had acted like a rational human being and wasn't a little punk b!tch, he would be starting at #2. But he couldn't hold it together, so he's gone. There may be some legitimate reasons to say he could have been our #2 starter, but using incorrect numbers doesn't help your case. I wouldn't have had a problem with him starting, but neither did I have a problem with Nate starting. They were very similar in their production. You're acting as if it was clear cut (at least that's my impression), but to me it really isn't.

_________________"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." - John Adams

“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.” - Neil deGrasse Tyson

Some people and players are simply self destructive. Young is one of those people and you don't need to blame those around them for their own issues.

Spot on.

The guy deliberately ran the wrong route in games. He intentionally made it more likely that his own team would lose.

I don't care what happened to you up to that point. Doing that is an absolute no. Anyone who thinks that is ok, whatever has happened to them prior to that point (I don't buy the idea that Titus had reason to feel aggreived, but even if he did ...), clearly has a massive attitude problem.

I don't see how anyone can see the guy do that, can see him screw over his own team like that, and think: hey, this guy was ok, it was a problem with the coaches. This guy was not ok at all. Given his actions, I am 100% willing to give the coaches the benefit of the doubt and assume that in the stuff we didn't get to see that went on, Titus was the guy in the wrong. He's done nothing to deserve the credit he's getting on this thread (other than allow support to the narrative of "the coaches and management suck").

February 8th, 2013, 4:55 am

Killwill25

Rookie Player of the Year

Joined: March 5th, 2009, 8:42 pmPosts: 2422Location: Brooklyn, NY

Re: Lions place Titus Young on IR

I don't think he should of done what he did but think about it this way, Titus has probably never been on a losing team in his life so when we start losing while ignoring him of course he's gonna say screw you. What is the point of even having a #2 WR when Stafford only throws the ball to his 2 gigantic security blankets CJ & Pett. I think that the twitter stuff was him just telling the team that we are wasting his time(like we have pretty much anyone whos played for the Lions). in 2011 Staff threw for 3300 yrds and 25 TDs if you take away CJs numbers. So why did we all of a sudden decide to become the most 1-demensional team in the NFL? He is an idiot but I just cant help but think that a good coach wouldve been able to maximize his talet. Titus lining up in the wrong spot is disgusting and proves his immaturity as far as dealing with our situation.

Lets just try to remember that Schwartz & Linehan(also Gunther...I cant recall one key stop our defense made all season) lost more games for us than titus young did. We removed him from the team, how did that improve team chemistry for the rest of the year?

Also, I'm I alone in thinking that Kris Durham will be our #2 WR going into camp