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A very good reply. I should have just posted it here in the first place.

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Originally Posted by ZippyDSM

Depends on ones take of god, if God is a interactive perfect deity always directly meddling in the affairs of man than those with that mind set will say the chruch can do no wrong.

If God completely controls men, then we become no more than God's hand-puppets. The possibility of the misdeeds of man (and thus church) comes from the existence of freewill. (edit: God could have taken away our free will and put us all in complete and constant control, but He didn't)

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Those that believe God setup the world and its rule and let the system it/he/she put in place maintain order would say the church is not of God but of religion that worships it.

It all comes down on how much absolution people give the church, some see it as a extension of god some see it as a human organization under god where everyone else is, IE just another human thing.

IMO the less perfection and absolution is placed in/on/around religion the less petty and immature it is.

A church is a constituency of man. Man is not perfect. Every church is every bit as suseptible to shortfalls (I do not want to directly insert the word "sin" because it is a specialized term that is very commonly misunderstood to be tainted with connotations of guilt that are not present in Christian theological usage) as its people.

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As man gains knowagle of gods world he finds new abilities and paths to take, that wisdome and experance brought about by such discoveries matures humanity.

In fiction magic is used as a means to a end, it is a skill like any other but one that can turn a single humans power into that of a army. Espers are no different in that regard as they are just another faction of humans that hold some power beyond human normalities.

One of the premises of the story is that ESP abilities are supposedly latent throughout humanity, and that the ESPer schools bring out those abilities with training. If that's the case, then God would be partly "responsible" (for the lack of a better term off the top of my head) for the existence of ESPers. If God never gave those latent abilities, there would have been nothing to bring out. As for magic- I'm not too sure about that one, but utilization of the occult is considered to be a departure from- / refusal of- the providence of God, for one is distancing him or herself from God and saying "I don't need you- I'll do my own thing." This is why things such as astrology and fortuntelling are frowned upon by Christians, myself included (I have previously studied those subjects in my spare time as items of curiosity, and people on an astrology forum have agreed with my theories regarding how those things work in practice, but that's another topic).

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One of the plot points was if Deep Blood proved that vampires exists then the Image breaker proves that God exists. And then what is God if its not a being that directly involves itself with us tis a being that watches from afar and lets us grow and mature with a minimal amount of assistance.

Hm. I think I totally missed that. Do you recall which episode the statement to the effect of "Imagine Breaker proves God's existence" came from?

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If God is the master/owner of the system, angels are rarely seen administrators, magic users merely workers for the different parts of the system or at least in this fictional setup it seems that's the case.

The Image breaker is a nullifying power to all "abilities" under creation.

Angels (or cherubims/seraphims) are more like "lieutenants". They do God's bidding, working as guards and messengers... Their powers are given by God but their powers are not "The power of God" (someone can correct me if I'm wrong). This makes the happenings of the "Angel Fall" spell in the latest espisodes somewhat nonsensical. An occult power does not summon an angel- It could summon something that merely takes the appearance of an angelic being which would make sense. Well... unless it's a fallen angel, like Lucifer (because it goes wherever it goes in its quest of corruption).

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Index is a inserting case, you have the grimoires that can not be thrown away yet can not be easily kept safe using a living being as the safe house (that's treated fairly well I might add) is an unorthodox method to protect it. Its better than some of things that are done in the name of "One". Its more unusual than cruel, using Touma as her new protector is also an unorthodox method of protection.. its both usual...and cruel to more Toumas head :P

If those grimoires are stacks of paper then they could have been and should have been incinerated. Again, clearly the church and its members did something they weren't supposed to do by keeping those things ("Hey! Let's stop all this magic in the world by bringing in MORE!") But then again... without that major failure there would have been no story to tell.

Last edited by nanikore; 2009-02-09 at 04:14.
Reason: mention God could have taken away free will if He wanted to

Don't look too deeply as the author did not do Research. Statistically speaking Japan is the most non-religious state in the world.

The idea of a militant church over the supernatural has been around since Nasuverse came to be and became a interesting concept.

Yeah. It's a story As any piece of art, there are many different ways of interpreting them. If the artist chose to paint an inaccurate cow, a diary farmer might have an interesting thing or two to say even if the artist wasn't trying to paint realistically

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Espers as explained in To Aru are some what naturaL. Call it evolution of humanity of sorts. Magic is said to have been created for normals to achieve that power.

That is why the Science and Magic sides try to get out of each other's way while hiding themselves from the mundanes.

Most of those in the Science side do not even know Magic exists.

But there must be a common denominator between the said powers that Imagine Breaker can nullify them.

Given the Schrödinger's cat paradx explaination of Komoe Tsukoyomi sensei about the origin of esper powers, a paradox is created by replacing reality with your own. The cat is both dead and alive.

We've seen this in a way with the Alchemist on how he twists reality.

So if Esper abilities and Magic defy natural laws Imagine Breaker returns them to the default normal reality.

One's paradigms really has a huge effect on the reading of a story. If a person sticks to the naturalist worldview then that's indeed the extent of the story.

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Not mention Index noted Touma is a typical Japanese Atheist.

There has been many instances recorded in the Bible where God used non-believers to teach people their well-deserved lessons- I have observed this to be still happening in the present day.

Last edited by nanikore; 2009-02-09 at 04:16.
Reason: deleted smiley, too many

A very good reply. I should have just posted it here in the first place.

ReddyRedWolf post is much better than mine in regards to the show.

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If God completely controls men, then we become no more than God's hand-puppets. The possibility of the misdeeds of man (and thus church) comes from the existence of freewill.

And its also freewill that drives us to gather in groups and be divisive and petty towards one another, its not as much a question of freewill or God IMO but one of humanity.

What is humanity,what is religoin,what is god what is free will,ect all of these have multiple answers and no single one can be perfect.

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A church is a constituency of man. Man is not perfect. Every church is every bit as suseptible to shortfalls (I do not want to directly insert the word "sin" because it is a specialized term that is very commonly misunderstood to be tainted with connotations of guilt that are not present in Christian theological usage) as its people.

Humans=sin though. You can say that there are 2 kinds of sin one is not knowing the other is not caring, not caring is the one that generally gets one in trouble with organized religion.

We all sin we all are imperfect IMO sin is not the question or the answer, showing others by action of doing good works(missions don;t count, unless you want to count teh act of stepping over the poor in front of you to look better in your social club by doing work aboard, ya I iz not a fan of organized religion nor do I hate it I merely see it for what it is.)

Edit
forgot to finish my thoughts here
By doing good works,by being humble and kind it is not our place to judge or be divisive through absolution, but rather learning what it is to be human and reasonably mitigating that while being part of a spiritual group.

For isntance gay is not the issue its not whom you sleep with it should be more the frequency and variety there of,even then were are imperfect and fickle things why must immaturity and learning about self and others in a sexual manner be so vile and evil, again people sin in many ways focusing on sin is the ultimate in pettiness IMO.

How people act and carry themselves should always be the focal point, scripture , the church hierarchy and tradition tell us some things are better than others however if we can not see that females are no longer to be treated as property and made 2nd to males then truly how far are we walking in the light.

We are all individuals under creation as equals the less we look at petty things about ourselves and others is the more we walk within the light.

I'll say it again organized religion is much more a business organization mixed with a fancy social club mentally than a truly spiritual one, but I am merely simplifying it due to my bias. In the real world with real people there is far more hope and humility amongst the believers than damnation and pride.

Believe what you will and drink its soothing nectar, sooner or later it will sour but even so as we grow old we become acostumed to bitter things.
/incoherent intellectual

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One of the premises of the story is that ESP abilities are supposedly latent throughout humanity, and that the ESPer schools bring out those abilities with training. If that's the case, then God would be partly "responsible" (for the lack of a better term off the top of my head) for the existence of ESPers. If God never gave those latent abilities, there would have been nothing to bring out. As for magic- I'm not too sure about that one, but utilization of the occult is considered to be a departure from- / refusal of- the providence of God, for one is distancing him or herself from God and saying "I don't need you- I'll do my own thing." This is why things such as astrology and fortuntelling are frowned upon by Christians, myself included (I have previously studied those subjects in my spare time as items of curiosity, and people on an astrology forum have agreed with my theories regarding how those things work in practice, but that's another topic).

Well lets look at it this way, Espers are evolved slightly humans with certain things unlocked early if you will to be allowed the ability to use powers.

For the Occult think of it like this organized religion needs a means to a end for control so during their time of trails they make magic use outside the hierarchy of the church strictly prohibited, this would fall in well with the strict nature of the early church. Forcing the public to believe in what they who are oft in control of society want them to believe.

As time goes on each theological system refines what powers they have access to and use them in typical power plays sentient beings do furthering myths of magic,ect .

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Hm. I think I totally missed that. Do you recall which episode the statement to the effect of "Imagine Breaker proves God's existence" came from?

It was part of the deep blood arch where Styril was talking to a general of the science side, er the guy floating upside down in the vat, at least that's how I understood it.

I believe it was after they introduced her the miko I can nto recall the name of. ><

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Angels (or cherubims/seraphims) are more like "lieutenants". They do God's bidding, working as guards and messengers... Their powers are given by God but their powers are not "The power of God" (someone can correct me if I'm wrong). This makes the happenings of the "Angel Fall" spell in the latest espisodes somewhat nonsensical. An occult power does not summon an angel- It could summon something that merely takes the appearance of an angelic being which would make sense. Well... unless it's a fallen angel, like Lucifer (because it goes wherever it goes in its quest of corruption).

They are part of the power system of god,thus they are the power of god, like magic is sense its derived from gods power. It makes fighting soemone higher in the hierarchy more difficult.

The angels fall spell sends the system out of whack and the more automated higher level life forms in this case a angel of some disrepute goes into annihilation mode. Think of the system as a Gardner gudieng,planting and pruning is all aprt of what is done to maintain the life of a plant or eco system.

Also one has to wonder the mental stresses and damages on begins of eternal life or even long life. It takes a being of great mental capacity to handle it. Even if just human like doubts and fears can crack a Psyche all it takes it a good shock to break it.

But from what I can read into Angels fall its was a system error that sent a semi automated high level being into a nasty reset mode.

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If those grimoires are stacks of paper then they could have been and should have been incinerated. Again, clearly the church and its members did something they weren't supposed to do by keeping those things ("Hey! Let's stop all this magic in the world by bringing in MORE!") But then again... without that major failure there would have been no story to tell.

Not if one of the primary functions of the church is to be a powerful origination, semi prolific and have a solid and deep power base. Its not a question of morality, its a question of keeping a secret book selection out of the hands of everyone but the core church members.

If you want to start a thread or PM I am up for it, I enjoy thinking even if god decided to give mew brwains a windose OS :P

I BSOD alot...in between teh rambling :P

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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Don't look too deeply as the author did not do Research. Statistically speaking Japan is the most non-religious state in the world.

The idea of a militant church over the supernatural has been around since Nasuverse came to be and became a interesting concept.

Espers as explained in To Aru are some what naturaL. Call it evolution of humanity of sorts. Magic is said to have been created for normals to achieve that power.

That is why the Science and Magic sides try to get out of each other's way while hiding themselves from the mundanes.

Most of those in the Science side do not even know Magic exists.

But there must be a common denominator between the said powers that Imagine Breaker can nullify them.

Given the Schrödinger's cat paradx explaination of Komoe Tsukoyomi sensei about the origin of esper powers, a paradox is created by replacing reality with your own. The cat is both dead and alive.

We've seen this in a way with the Alchemist on how he twists reality.

So if Esper abilities and Magic defy natural laws Imagine Breaker returns them to the default normal reality.

Not mention Index noted Touma is a typical Japanese Atheist.

Great post, though IMO Espers are akin to Magic users, whats the main difference both need training to learn to control a mental style of stamina, magic users use "spells" the knowledge of the occult to summon forth a power/ability, Espers use the ability they have learned/created to summon forth a power/ability.

Magic users go through more training and have a wider skill set because of it, Espers are mostly untrained ability users.

And its also freewill that drives us to gather in groups and be divisive and petty towards one another, its not as much a question of freewill or God IMO but one of humanity.

Everyone still has a choice of either continuing to self-serve, or serve God. To be slaves of desire, or follow a higher calling. I mentioned choice in my original post, and this is a good place to mention it again.

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forgot to finish my thoughts here
By doing good works,by being humble and kind it is not our place to judge or be divisive through absolution, but rather learning what it is to be human and reasonably mitigating that while being part of a spiritual group.

This is going way off topic (maybe we can talk offline in PM) but the real question is that of the true nature of freedom. Some think that "free to do what they want" is freedom. In the end- When people find that they "could not help themselves" from nexus of their ego and desires the question surfaces again.

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For isntance gay is not the issue its not whom you sleep with it should be more the frequency and variety there of,even then were are imperfect and fickle things why must immaturity and learning about self and others in a sexual manner be so vile and evil, again people sin in many ways focusing on sin is the ultimate in pettiness IMO.

How people act and carry themselves should always be the focal point, scripture , the church hierarchy and tradition tell us some things are better than others however if we can not see that females are no longer to be treated as property and made 2nd to males then truly how far are we walking in the light.

(OT, please skip 3 response paragraphs down if not interested) Education is the answer to ignorance. Why did the Bible say that women is to aid men? Let's very briefly look at this in the form of the following question... If we are to ask someone for help, would we ask someone who does things worse than we do, or better? There are some messages that are supposedly stereotypical of Christianity that are simply untrue gossip- Things that people who do not know about the actual Christian teachings say. Women are the source of strength in a family and as such deserves respect, that's the actual teaching.

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We are all individuals under creation as equals the less we look at petty things about ourselves and others is the more we walk within the light.

Christian teaching speaks of the same equality under creation... The difficulty lies within two things: One, people know better but fail because of their weakness. Two, people just don't know that's the teaching (ignorance).

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I'll say it again organized religion is much more a business organization mixed with a fancy social club mentally than a truly spiritual one, but I am merely simplifying it due to my bias. In the real world with real people there is far more hope and humility amongst the believers than damnation and pride.

If people think their churches to be not of service to their community then they need to get themselves out of those churches and into a community-serving church.

Now, back to something that's on topic...

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Well lets look at it this way, Espers are evolved slightly humans with certain things unlocked early if you will to be allowed the ability to use powers.

For the Occult think of it like this organized religion needs a means to a end for control so during their time of trails they make magic use outside the hierarchy of the church strictly prohibited, this would fall in well with the strict nature of the early church. Forcing the public to believe in what they who are oft in control of society want them to believe.

As time goes on each theological system refines what powers they have access to and use them in typical power plays sentient beings do furthering myths of magic,ect .

Certainly, the organizations belonging to such a category could hardly call themselves Christian. Who does the Church of England in the story serve? If the answer is "themselves" then no, it's not a Christian organization (*Irony alert*). Actually, cults are better purposed when it comes to control- There needs not to be any historical catalogs or inquiries into the completeness thereof. "What I say here and now is truth".

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They are part of the power system of god,thus they are the power of god, like magic is sense its derived from gods power. It makes fighting soemone higher in the hierarchy more difficult.

The angels fall spell sends the system out of whack and the more automated higher level life forms in this case a angel of some disrepute goes into annihilation mode. Think of the system as a Gardner gudieng,planting and pruning is all aprt of what is done to maintain the life of a plant or eco system.

Also one has to wonder the mental stresses and damages on begins of eternal life or even long life. It takes a being of great mental capacity to handle it. Even if just human like doubts and fears can crack a Psyche all it takes it a good shock to break it.

But from what I can read into Angels fall its was a system error that sent a semi automated high level being into a nasty reset mode.

Angels apparently are not perfect and also have the capacity to fail, but they are not human beings and therefore not subject to the same kind of mental stresses. The power of an angel should not be equated to that of God's. Think of it this way: We (humans) are also given abilities by God, but are those abilities "God's abilities"? Normally, I would say not. They're ours, even if God-given. I know the difference may be semantic but quite important. I suppose in a very, very broad sense our abilities are "God's abilities" but I wouldn't put it that way.

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Not if one of the primary functions of the church is to be a powerful origination, semi prolific and have a solid and deep power base. Its not a question of morality, its a question of keeping a secret book selection out of the hands of everyone but the core church members.

If church members are just in it for themselves then keep in mind that they may be putting themselves on the quick road to the Bad Place... May God have mercy upon their souls. I think Tales Of The Abyss does an even better job at handling issues of politics and corruption, even though I think the series is a bit slow...

Certainly, the organizations belonging to such a category could hardly call themselves Christian. Who does the Church of England in the story serve? If the answer is "themselves" then no, it's not a Christian organization (*Irony alert*). Actually, cults are better purposed when it comes to control- There needs not to be any historical catalogs or inquiries into the completeness thereof. "What I say here and now is truth".

Look at the catholic church and all of the hats it wears and tell me that you can not have a origination that's self interested at the same time of being partially driven by the people within it. Hell look at the US government any system that's partly bureaucratic will be at odds with the members within it.

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Angels apparently are not perfect and also have the capacity to fail, but they are not human beings and therefore not subject to the same kind of mental stresses. The power of an angel should not be equated to that of God's. Think of it this way: We (humans) are also given abilities by God, but are those abilities "God's abilities"? Normally, I would say not. They're ours, even if God-given. I know the difference may be semantic but quite important. I suppose in a very, very broad sense our abilities are "God's abilities" but I wouldn't put it that way.

Mmmm look at Lucifer his love and vigor for god blinded him so much he became fallen. They have conscious that can bear more than mans but are still very much what we can call human like.

From what I have seen in the show magic is a diluted form of "gods power" man can use for his own propose, angels are are closet to god in terms of power but have many more rules to follow.

We are children of creation blessed with the dichotomy of good and evil, our abilities and skills are many, our paths vary and cross like links in a great chain link fence.

We are given all the tools needed to become a mature being it is in that endeavor we were created to live,to learn,to hate,to love, to experience.
I can not believe in a creation abandoning those that fail and those that are merely lost. We are all here for a reason, even if that reason is merely to be here.

The ripples we make echo out touching others and creating ripples of their own. Even if beyond the end there is nothing those ripples still echo with our hearts true intentions.

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If church members are just in it for themselves then keep in mind that they may be putting themselves on the quick road to the Bad Place... May God have mercy upon their souls. I think Tales Of The Abyss does an even better job at handling issues of politics and corruption, even though I think the series is a bit slow...

Depends on who the members of the church are, is it the congregations fault that its leaders do bad in the light or hidden in the night?Is it evil to run the church as a institution of order and its enforcement?

IMO Hell is not for believers and everyone is a believer be it they believe in nothing or something, "god" long ago abandon man in mass due to its own wrathful nature but after Christ salvation was ensured for all leaving Hell a place for those that damn themselves.

IE we damn ourselves to walk in darkness due to the harshness of the world, spirituality in all of its forms seeks to lift our burdens and give us some order and peace to cling to.

Really the more one thinks of it spirituality is the precursor to psychology(and more organized forms of government)...however I prefer the various "God's" over the old men with glasses who poke at mew brwains...and the female deity's are ahell of lot cutier too..... LOL

Well, who knows (Railgun aside), but I would say that given sales and the overall reception to the product, not to mention the way they have been spreading out the source material, the odds of a sequel are about as high as you could possibly get. And that's a good thing as far as I'm concerned; even though a lot of people grew impatient with the exposition, I still quite liked the show. Not to mention, the Blu-Rays are pretty sweet. For what it's worth, I'm expecting Shana III in the Fall, and Index II in Fall 2010 (with Railgun falling somewhere in between as possibly an OVA series or something else). Time will tell!

Well, who knows (Railgun aside), but I would say that given sales and the overall reception to the product, not to mention the way they have been spreading out the source material, the odds of a sequel are about as high as you could possibly get. And that's a good thing as far as I'm concerned; even though a lot of people grew impatient with the exposition, I still quite liked the show. Not to mention, the Blu-Rays are pretty sweet. For what it's worth, I'm expecting Shana III in the Fall, and Index II in Fall 2010 (with Railgun falling somewhere in between as possibly an OVA series or something else). Time will tell!

Would it be more likely they run the 12 ep side story to build up for a new season for the main show?

Well, we don't know anything yet. The fact that they phrased it as "being animated" as opposed to "TV series in production" makes me wonder, and it sort of fits into my theory above, but really there are many ways they could do this. So, we'll see!

Well, we don't know anything yet. The fact that they phrased it as "being animated" as opposed to "TV series in production" makes me wonder, and it sort of fits into my theory above, but really there are many ways they could do this. So, we'll see!

Ah well I hope its solid whatever it is, I can live without fillerrich fan service and it would be a shame if became a CM or OVA short, I am not to fond of those.

So shana S3 will be out in the in a few months? Goody I enjoyed that series as well!

On a side note I come to learn my natural writing style is expotive/expositional, now if I can just fix my issues with reiteration,rambling and incoherence I would not harm people with my writing.

So shana S3 will be out in the in a few months? Goody I enjoyed that series as well!

Well, that too was speculation, but Geneon hinted pretty strong about it in their new year's hints, so I'd be surprised if it didn't happen. Shana's last two seasons were Fall 2005 and Fall 2007, so Fall 2009 just makes sense.

I found the series as a whole very enjoyable. I just found it a bit strange that touma with or without memory loss didn't make any difference.

His memory loss was a secret right, Any script following the rules :P would make that secret come out around the ending causing drama that has to be solved. In this case touma would just carry on, have one incident where he has to think about his father and for the rest nothing. While to me it's a pretty big and interesting thing what would happen to one if his memory was damaged like he had.

Looking at the anime's website, it seems that the second season will air starting October 4th, 2009 (MBS/TVK) to Oct. 9 2009 (ATX). My knowledge of Kanji is still at the beginning stage, but I believe it refers to Index second season.

Looking at the anime's website, it seems that the second season will air starting October 4th, 2009 (MBS/TVK) to Oct. 9 2009 (ATX). My knowledge of Kanji is still at the beginning stage, but I believe it refers to Index second season.

Just started watching this show from hearing about it from tons of people, so I didn't scan through this thread to avoid spoilers. Just a question but, did anyone else get a HUGE feeling of comparison between this and SnS when they started watching this? Maybe its just the music or the generic-esce storyline at the start only. Either way, im loving it.

Edit: Maybe I didn't look into the artists and such, but it seems nearly uncanny now that I look at it. The music, drawing style, ambiance and characters even seem similar in nature.

Just started watching this show from hearing about it from tons of people, so I didn't scan through this thread to avoid spoilers. Just a question but, did anyone else get a HUGE feeling of comparison between this and SnS when they started watching this? Maybe its just the music or the generic-esce storyline at the start only. Either way, im loving it.

Edit: Maybe I didn't look into the artists and such, but it seems nearly uncanny now that I look at it. The music, drawing style, ambiance and characters even seem similar in nature.

Well, yeah, both shows have the same art director, same production company, same publisher, same musical group for the OP/EDs (who is also doing the BGM for this show), and probably many other shared personnel in terms of key animators, and so on. So, yes, the similarity isn't just by accident. That being said, at the end of the day, it isn't quite the same genre of show (despite some similar elements), so those who like the one may not necessarily like the other.

The previously announced and much anticipated Misaka Mikoto gaiden anime, entitled “A Certain Scientific Railgun” (or something to that effect) has been dated with an unexpectedly early release, surprising fans.

The anime will begin airing in October 2009; length is not mentioned, but the addition of a variety of thus far unseen characters is.