Let’s be honest, Malkin hasn’t won us a game since mid-November. That is unacceptable regardless of his history here with relation to his salary.

Brassard is one of our cheapest forwards and is playing a depth role. I’ve got a ton of patience for that and it seems like there is a crowd that judges him as if he is a top six forward or something. Mainly because the “cost” I imagine.

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That's really not what's happening. I know you don't agree with what the Brassard critics are saying, but there's no need to misrepresent what's being said. The criticism of Brassard is 90% focused on him as a 3C, in terms of what we want from a 3C and what another player could provide in that role. Very little of it is to do with cost or expecting him to be a top six forward. Don't be that guy.

edit: p.s. I would also say that I'm seeing happy signs of life from both Brassard and Malkin over the last few games.

TRUTH. You can't say anything bad about Malkin but I will. He's a selfish player that is not committed to play winning hockey. Either he's stupid or doesn't care.

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If Malkin was selfish, he'd be in another city where Sid isn't soaking up the endorsements (perhaps one of the other NHL cities, or perhaps in the KHL where opponents wouldn't challenge him as much and oligarchs would leave bags of money in his locker). If Malkin wasn't committed to playing winning hockey, he wouldn't take turns with Sid accepting lesser linemates so that the team is more dangerous top to bottom. If he didn't care, he wouldn't play through injuries that most other players sit through. And if he was stupid, he'd be Jack Johnson.

If Evgeni Malkin was the flakey little **** that some people imagine he is, there are much easier and more glamorous things he could do in the hockey world than win Stanley Cups in Pittsburgh and let Crosby take all the credit.

That's really not what's happening. I know you don't agree with what the Brassard critics are saying, but there's no need to misrepresent what's being said. The criticism of Brassard is 90% focused on him as a 3C, in terms of what we want from a 3C and what another player could provide in that role. Very little of it is to do with cost or expecting him to be a top six forward. Don't be that guy.

edit: p.s. I would also say that I'm seeing happy signs of life from both Brassard and Malkin over the last few games.

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What do we want from a 3C?

30 pt pace production? Brassard is doing it.
Showing some life? In his last 6 games Brassard has 3 goals and 1 assist.
Not being a defensive liability? Since the Pearson - Brassard - Kessel line has been put together they’ve been on the ice for one GA at ES. Simon - Malkin - Hornqvist have been on the ice for 4.

Grant they’ve been on the ice for 5 GF as a unit and P - B - K have been on the ice for 2 GF.

30 pt pace production? Brassard is doing it.
Showing some life? In his last 6 games Brassard has 3 goals and 1 assist.
Not being a defensive liability? Since the Pearson - Brassard - Kessel line has been put together they’ve been on the ice for one GA at ES. Simon - Malkin - Hornqvist have been on the ice for 4.

Grant they’ve been on the ice for 5 GF as a unit and P - B - K have been on the ice for 2 GF.

I just don’t get why we are acting like Brassard is losing us games.

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Have notably better on ice results in terms of GF%, possession, etc.etc. than Riley Sheahan or Greg McKegg. Also, not have the worst relative possession stats of any centre averaging 13+ 5v5 minutes in the NHL.

While I'm happy that he's had an uptick in production, I'd like to see it sustained before I start celebrating mission accomplished on the objectives above. And a line giving up 13.13 HDCA p/60 isn't going to stay at a 97.56% save percentage for ever. That's not sustainable.

I think most of Brassard's critics have acknowledged that he's not losing us games. "Not losing us games" is not a high enough bar to be a shield against criticism.

If Malkin was selfish, he'd be in another city where Sid isn't soaking up the endorsements (perhaps one of the other NHL cities, or perhaps in the KHL where opponents wouldn't challenge him as much and oligarchs would leave bags of money in his locker). If Malkin wasn't committed to playing winning hockey, he wouldn't take turns with Sid accepting lesser linemates so that the team is more dangerous top to bottom. If he didn't care, he wouldn't play through injuries that most other players sit through. And if he was stupid, he'd be Jack Johnson.

If Evgeni Malkin was the flakey little **** that some people imagine he is, there are much easier and more glamorous things he could do in the hockey world than win Stanley Cups in Pittsburgh and let Crosby take all the credit.

Have notably better on ice results in terms of GF%, possession, etc.etc. than Riley Sheahan or Greg McKegg. Also, not have the worst relative possession stats of any centre averaging 13+ 5v5 minutes in the NHL.

While I'm happy that he's had an uptick in production, I'd like to see it sustained before I start celebrating mission accomplished on the objectives above. And a line giving up 13.13 HDCA p/60 isn't going to stay at a 97.56% save percentage for ever. That's not sustainable.

I think most of Brassard's critics have acknowledged that he's not losing us games. "Not losing us games" is not a high enough bar to be a shield against criticism.

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If you remove the trade and judge him as a 3 mil dollar player are those expectations fair though?

Can you pull some numbers comparing his performance to Bonino in 15-16 and 16-17.

They play the Hawks twice a year, who cares? They are literally in another conference and if fans have some kind of butt hurting issues over it, I can assure them a seven game series is a much different animal than playing them a couple times a season every year.

Also, the Pens PP and PK have been lights out the last few weeks, so I’m willing to give them a mulligan for a bad game, especially when I saw a ton of positives from the top three lines.

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First off I care or I wouldn't be talking about it. Secondly, this is a thread to discuss this particular game, which happens to be against a team we've struggled mightily against. So my angst with in the context of this discussion is warranted. This doesn't mean we suck as a team. It just means against this particular team we do. Or at least have had results commensurate with that.

As far as if in some fantasy realm where by we'd play them in the post season, no, there's no guarantee we'd lose to them. But there is evidence suggesting we very well would. I'm aware there are different dynamics in the post season that can come into play. Having confidence however is a variable to consider. And I can't imagine we'd have much going into such a series.

If you remove the trade and judge him as a 3 mil dollar player are those expectations fair though?

Can you pull some numbers comparing his performance to Bonino in 15-16 and 16-17.

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Is it fair to expect a 3m 3C to be better than Riley Sheahan and Gregg McKegg? And not to be arguably the worst centre with his ice time in the league? I'm sorry, what? How on earth would they be unfair expectations?

Bonino's relative stats are solidly above for 15-16 up to end of Feb (i.e. trying to cut off HBK although too lazy to look up exact dates) but kinda comparable for 16-17 up to end of Feb (again, another Malkin injury elevates him to 2C status) - but that's comparing him to Brassard with his spell with Sid left in.

If you remove the trade and judge him as a 3 mil dollar player are those expectations fair though?

Can you pull some numbers comparing his performance to Bonino in 15-16 and 16-17.

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Why should he be judged as a $3MM player? We traded for the $5MM player and paid for that. The only way the deal was feasible was to have salary retained. I'm all for context but JR didn't go out and get Brassard because he thought he could be a solid 30 point center. He traded for a difference maker and hasn't gotten one.

He has not been good this year. Pretty much just effective on the Power Play. If it wasn't for having two superstars we'd be out of the playoffs still.

I'm sure the excuses will be his linemates but if he was as good as he was or how good people think he is then he'd be propping his linemates up. I will say his five on five play is starting to heat up.

If you're a true Malkin fan you should buy those seats right next to the penalty box. You'll get to see him up close and personal.

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Geno is not above criticism, but to compare him to a guy like Brassard is silly. I'm gonna give Geno a hell of a lot more rope than Brassard. And if you can't understand why I would, or others might, then you really are being very shortsighted here.

Crosby and Malkin have always had a tougher time against elite shutdown centermen than they do against elite defensemen. Datsyuk, Toews, and Bergeron have always had their number unfortunately.

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Valid point. It explains prolonged struggles against those teams.

However, It doesn't explain why they gave up 11 goals in 2 games against the Hawks this year though. And before all the CDS haters respond, let's not pretend like the Pens win last night w/ Murray in net. CDS didn't stink up the 5 on 3. CDS wasn't the one that couldn't clear the puck in 3 Hawks' powerplays. Entire team went to sleep after jumping out 2-0.

Is it fair to expect a 3m 3C to be better than Riley Sheahan and Gregg McKegg? And not to be arguably the worst centre with his ice time in the league? I'm sorry, what? How on earth would they be unfair expectations?

Bonino's relative stats are solidly above for 15-16 up to end of Feb (i.e. trying to cut off HBK although too lazy to look up exact dates) but kinda comparable for 16-17 up to end of Feb (again, another Malkin injury elevates him to 2C status) - but that's comparing him to Brassard with his spell with Sid left in.

Is it fair to expect a 3m 3C to be better than Riley Sheahan and Gregg McKegg? And not to be arguably the worst centre with his ice time in the league? I'm sorry, what? How on earth would they be unfair expectations?

Bonino's relative stats are solidly above for 15-16 up to end of Feb (i.e. trying to cut off HBK although too lazy to look up exact dates) but kinda comparable for 16-17 up to end of Feb (again, another Malkin injury elevates him to 2C status) - but that's comparing him to Brassard with his spell with Sid left in.

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Didn’t the same data saying he was the worst center say Olli Maatta was a top five C?

McKegg scored at a 12 pt pace over a large sample size here. Sheahan at a 30+ pace. Brassard is at a 32 pt pace with a 17 goal pace.

Why should he be judged as a $3MM player? We traded for the $5MM player and paid for that. The only way the deal was feasible was to have salary retained. I'm all for context but JR didn't go out and get Brassard because he thought he could be a solid 30 point center. He traded for a difference maker and hasn't gotten one.

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I don’t know if that’s true though. Since being put on a consistent line Brassard has four points in six games and he’s not hurting this roster.

I think expectations for Brassard were widely overrated. You do realize the Lowry’s and Cirelli’s of the world are producing at a similar rate and possession wise Brassard has been with Phil Kessel who is always a possession black hole.