A quicky Jax, if things are as you say, and there is no possibilities to interfere in anyway ... why do you loose your time, and our, in that discussion?

Sönam

By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.- Longchen Rabjam -

After reading these posts it becomes perfectly clear why most traditional teachers are very reluctant to give teachings like Dzogchen or Mahamudra unless you prove your sincerity and commitment with long years of practice.

Indeed. If one develops DPS (Dzogchen Poseur Syndrom) , one is in deep shit because such person tends to forget that karma still affects him.But you see, I understand that times have changed and our life is more and more busy. Vajrayana per se is very time consuming, whether we like it or not. Its methodology makes it so and this is not a defect. It's as effective as it used to be, but how many can go to retreat for some years these days? It's hard enough to complete the preliminaries as it is, let alone kyerim and dzogrim. Possible, sure. Feasible? Not for everyone, especially those who lack resources, who will spend their life practicing a half baked Vajrayana with doubtful results in terms of accomplishing anything more than discipline.Perhaps we can only evaluate a posteriori the effects of teaching Dzogchen so openly as ChNN, but according to my experience there are more cases of success, or at least partial success, than failure. We don't see many people going completely astray, I think. And who knows what would happen to these people once they started developing vajra pride, for instance? We never know, but I totally understand what you're saying.

Dechen Norbu wrote:Indeed. If one develops DPS (Dzogchen Poseur Syndrom) , one is in deep shit because such person tends to forget that karma still affects him.

This is true! In fact, I have some examples from practitioners who I know personally, and this Syndrom is a major obstacle in my place... So, I am tired to listen (or read) analysis over analysis which are all based on deluded minds. When the only cure could be these people to find a good psychotherapist.No realization can arise upon the base of ego-clinging.

Last edited by Dronma on Sat Mar 10, 2012 7:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour" ~ Padmasambhava ~

Kilaya. wrote:After reading these posts it becomes perfectly clear why most traditional teachers are very reluctant to give teachings like Dzogchen or Mahamudra unless you prove your sincerity and commitment with long years of practice.

Dechen, I sense your deep compassion and commitment to the teachings. This is wonderful! However you keep speaking from the perspective that there are some entities called individual beings. You haven't realized that we are not a "person" that has experiences, but rather the "person" is an experience arising in impersonal consciousness or Awareness. You are that changeless Dharmakaya Nature in which identities arise and dissolve like any other thought-construction. This is fully realized if one seriously engages in the dialectics of Madhyamaka. It also becomes self-clear when vipassana ripens into mahavipassana, where subject and object are both known to be non-dual. Actually the Buddha makes this all clear in the story of Bahiya, which I assume you are quite familiar. It's all right there. There is no suffering self, there only seems to be.

Jax wrote:However you keep speaking from the perspective that there are some entities called individual beings.

Concerning Madhyamaka it is sometimes even necessary. Perhaps you need it. Let's look for example Shāntideva's Entrance to the Conduct of Bodhisattvas:All analyses dependOn simply what is renowned in the world. (9.108cd)Karmapa Wangchug Dorje comments it:....Followers of the Middle Way, therefore, do not affirm nonexistence through refuting existence. Nor do they affirm or accept “being neither” through refuting “being both.” The refutations of existence, being both, being neither, and so on are simply words used to undermine the wrong thinking of others. They are accepted merely as statements from the perspective of other, worldly beings. Relying on them as such, the Followers of the Middle Way reverse others’ misconceptions. They do not refute anything or affirm anything as their own system. They simply speak in accordance with the following (above) quotation.

(p.279) (Chandrakirti)The conventional truth is the method;The ultimate truth is what arises from the method.Those who do not know the distinctions between these twoWill, due to wrong thinking, follow inferior paths. (6.80)Karmapa Wangchug Dorje: Granted that, ultimately, there are not two truths. Yet, conventionally, the relative truth is not just confusion but it is also a method for realizing the ultimate truth. Without analyzing whether relative phenomena arise from themselves or from something different than themselves, the Followers of the Middle Way accept from the perspective of others whatever is asserted by worldly people on the basis of worldly ways.

In the Dzogchen phase of pracitce known as Trekchod or "cutting through tension", there eventually comes a sense of completion: no more practice, no searching and no effort to "stabilize a state". When it is recognized that Awareness or Beingness is naked of any particular flavor or form or "feel", that Awareness is then known to be the Knowing within all experience. All experience is equal in this case or sometimes known as "same taste" in Dzogchen or Buddhist Mahamudra.We have to be alert that we don't have a subtle definition of Awareness that colors its empty, nakedness. That means we , by mistake, make Awareness into a particualr state of experience. That would be like: "Awareness is a clear openness that is spacious and serene" or "a sense of awakened-ness" or "transparency" or "bliss" or "love" etc. We then have defined Awareness and by doing so we have made it possible to lose the "state of Awareness". When we aren't feeling that "clear openness that is spacious and serene" we feel we have lost Awareness. But Awareness has no definition, all experience is the experience of Awareness. Awareness has no form or state of its own. That then allows Awareness to be every state, every feeling,every emotion,every thought, every identity sensation, every perception. That being so, what is there left to achieve? Every experience, happy, sad or neutral is the appearance of Awareness. We give up completely the notion that Awareness has to have some particular flavor or color. Oh my god, we can finally really relax! Its over! Every experience is equal in Awareness! What could you possibly practice? You are already aware, so you don't need to become aware. Everything is already happening however its happening, so there is nothing special to do. No special "state" to attain! If you experience a special state, that's fine, but it will never become stable. The only stability is your unchanging perceiving of whatever is experienced. That unchanging perceivingness is Awareness, the heart of the Dharmakaya (Pure Primordial Being).

Mariusz, as Dzogchenpas our "view" is not that of Madhyamikans. Not even close. We confirm Rigpa, hence Dzogchen is an affirming negation. However the independent existence of even "conventional" entities don't require further negation as they have never attained to the rank of the existing in the first place. You may speak conventionally regarding " beings", but that doesn't bring them into existence. How can you negate that which has never existed, like Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny? Can you deny the vividness of your Awareness? Yet can you affirm it's independent existence as being some entity... I dont think you can...

Jax wrote:The only stability is your unchanging perceiving of whatever is experienced. That unchanging perceivingness is Awareness, the heart of the Dharmakaya (Pure Primordial Being).

Dangerous words my friend... unchanging perceiving of whatever is experienced? May be a description of awareness in mindfulness... but not an accurate description of the natural state. You need to be careful with your words... though there is a possibility of your remarks being merely a semantical error, using terms like of whatever is experienced paints the wrong image of instant presence/pure presence. It allows for misinterpretation, and wrong view, which you very well may be victim of yourself, the verdict is still out on this due to the subtleties of the terminology you use, you just barely squeak by. Nothing is experienced, and there is no "awareness" perceiving experience. And pure primordial being is not an accurate definition or description of dharmakāya.

Jax wrote:Actually I do feel that Norbu misses the priorities. He needs to stay relentlessly on the topics of "direct introduction", shamatha, vipassana, sky gazing practice, gTumo (Kundalini yoga) and togal. These priorities would be much more beneficial than all the Vajra Dance, rites and rituals, song of the vajra etc. Time in life is short... stay focused...

Have you just suggested what ChNN ought to be doing? That's . . . rich. To quote from a classic picture, "Rich and creamy. Just the way I like it".

Jax wrote:Actually I do feel that Norbu misses the priorities. He needs to stay relentlessly on the topics of "direct introduction", shamatha, vipassana, sky gazing practice, gTumo (Kundalini yoga) and togal. These priorities would be much more beneficial than all the Vajra Dance, rites and rituals, song of the vajra etc. Time in life is short... stay focused...

Another clear example of how severe your misunderstanding really is.

agree ...

Jax, friendly, better stay focused!

Sönam

I told you: Jax is funny! In fact, he is a comedian who has not yet realized his natural talent!

"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour" ~ Padmasambhava ~

A! Ha! Ho Ho! Thanks! In his curriculum vitae writes that his root guru is Namkhai Norbu. Since when a Dzogchen (or any inner path) practitioner is blaming and staining his root guru without breaking samaya?

"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour" ~ Padmasambhava ~

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By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.- Longchen Rabjam -