So, if everybody has to stay in the same play due to a range debuff on casters... what sets casters and melee apart? Just their castbars?

It's very comforting to know that regardless of gender, ethnicity, religion, profession, hobby or favorite dessert, every single human in the universe is still an individual with the potential to be a horrible person.

And as someone mentioned earlier in the thread, melee have some casts too. Monks right now, although Warriors did too with Slam.

So... even less than that? Yeah, doesn't sound like fun to me.

Honestly, having a range-reducing debuff would simply make ranged players stand closer to the targets and ignore the debuff altogether. There would be an unholy amount of complaining on the forums for a couple months, and then everybody would ignore the fact their spells have a 40-yard range and instead stand at 20 just in case. No actual gameplay depth to it.

It's very comforting to know that regardless of gender, ethnicity, religion, profession, hobby or favorite dessert, every single human in the universe is still an individual with the potential to be a horrible person.

It'd be too much work to balance and not enough gain at the end of the day. Sure, it could make things more interesting overall, but is it worth it? I don't think so.

Ultimately this may be the case. I think the balancing problem will continue to grow so long as each class can bring 25+ spells with them into an arena. This thread was just to kick around the idea & get people thinking about new things that could be added to the game as I have felt that a lot of new abilities have just been different flavors of existing abilities. WoW has set a precedence of introducing new abilities to classes with every expansion & if that were to continue, new types of abilities will need to be introduced, not more flavors of existing

Originally Posted by Jackinthegreen

By the way, have you posted on the official forums about this idea? Or are you just testing it here on MMO-C?

I thought about it, but seeing as it took almost a full page until people even understood what I was talking about, I fear for a thread like this on the official boards.

You know I totally forgot about that ability. It reduced the range at which you could agro something. I wonder if that is a mechanic that can easily applied to any spell or if it was modifying some other hidden setting. I was always under the impression that when an NPC is created there is some base value you set their agro range to & then it is modified by the level of the target that comes near. (Ex: corehounds in MC had huge agro ranges). Regardless, thanks for reminding me about this.

Code:

Mind Soothe
40 yd range
6% of base mana
Instant cast
Soothes the target, reducing the range at which it will attack you by 10 yards. Only affects Humanoid targets. Lasts 15 sec.

And as someone mentioned earlier in the thread, melee have some casts too. Monks right now, although Warriors did too with Slam.

Are those abilities heavily utilized in PVP? When you PVP, you use a select number of abilities. You're not going to be mind soothing in the midst of battle, or casting ressurection. Likewise, it's not like Melee depends on using casted abilities as a part of their rotation in PVP.

The Melee/Caster gameplay is defined. When you are ranged, you stand and cast spells at range, and being at full range benefits you the most. You have no survival benefits to staying close to your target, other than trying to LOS by getting behind them. In the case of Melee, they have a lot of disables and movement abilities as well as having most-to-all of their abilities instant cast, meaning they attack on the run. Casters can only deal a percentage of their damage from kiting in this fashion.

I only see this as a good thing is if there is an easy way to counter -range debuff, either by giving casters their own +range buffs or as someone suggested, making it a soft debuff where it only lowers damage instead of completely locking it out.

Are those abilities heavily utilized in PVP? When you PVP, you use a select number of abilities. You're not going to be mind soothing in the midst of battle, or casting ressurection. Likewise, it's not like Melee depends on using casted abilities as a part of their rotation in PVP.

I think what should have been said is that melee have ranged abilities (Deathgrip, instant heals, Blind, etc.) that are heavily utilized in PvP so it would impact melee as well as ranged gameplay. Some examples I gave before were:

Apply this debuff ability on a DK so his deathgrip range is reduced who is chasing after your flag carrier in WSG? Or on the ret paladin so his repentance or HoJ can't reach your healer who is keeping your butt alive? Pretty sure there is a use case for every melee class.

Originally Posted by Thimagryn

I only see this as a good thing is if there is an easy way to counter -range debuff, either by giving casters their own +range buffs or as someone suggested, making it a soft debuff where it only lowers damage instead of completely locking it out.

Again from another post:

I would argue that counters to a -range debuff already exist in several fashions. It isn't as obvious as a +range buff in the game, but rarely are any debuffs matched with a direct inverse buff.

A lot of debuffs in this game are dispellable. The monk ability example in the first post for example would be a poison. It would still cost the healer a GCD to dispel & an 8 second CD. Tons of classes have immunities to silences, stuns, etc. I don't see why they wouldn't take this -range debuff under their fold.

Or.. Just as you would preemptively throw up a HoT or a Shield before that rogues kidney shot or garrote lands on you, you would preemptively HoT or Shield your ally before you are CC'd with this -range debuff. Or your teammate has Heroic Leap, ShadowStep, blink, Demonic Gateway, the list goes on with the # of abilities that get your teammate in range of you or vice versa.

A lot of debuffs in this game are dispellable. The monk ability example in the first post for example would be a poison. It would still cost the healer a GCD to dispel & an 8 second CD. Tons of classes have immunities to silences, stuns, etc. I don't see why they wouldn't take this -range debuff under their fold.

It's inelegant design if a Range debuff is treated as a silence that isn't a silence. If it's going to act as a range deterrent, then it should be that. A range debuff that still allows the spell to be cast but requires a change in distance is essentially forcing a player to change the way they're being played. It's not a binary spell, which is what I'm getting at. If you're slowed, you're slowed. Imagine if there is a spell that works 'When you are too far away from your opponent, you will get stunned/slowed'. You can see the difference there, right?

Or.. Just as you would preemptively throw up a HoT or a Shield before that rogues kidney shot or garrote lands on you, you would preemptively HoT or Shield your ally before you are CC'd with this -range debuff. Or your teammate has Heroic Leap, ShadowStep, blink, Demonic Gateway, the list goes on with the # of abilities that get your teammate in range of you or vice versa.

If you've ever played a Druid and have seen the impact of how the cyclone range buffs and nerfs have affected the use of the spell over the years, you can easily understand what an impact just 5-10 yards can be in competitive PVP. This debuff is planned to affect most-to-all casted spells, potentially halving that. This is more than just a debuff. This is changing up how PVP will be played in the future, depending on how persistent this spell will be.

How would what the OP said affect PVE? Is the warrior/monk from your own raid going to debuff you? Unless you meant that the debuff is also available to bosses and they can force you into melee/mid range, which could be just as easily accomplished by the boss having a pull mechanic after you reach a certain range.

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle
Also, it's should HAVE. NOT "should of". "Should of" doesn't even make sense. If you think you should own a cat, do you say "I should of a cat" or "I should have a cat"? Do you HAVE cats, or do you OF cats?

It's inelegant design if a Range debuff is treated as a silence that isn't a silence. If it's going to act as a range deterrent, then it should be that. A range debuff that still allows the spell to be cast but requires a change in distance is essentially forcing a player to change the way they're being played. It's not a binary spell, which is what I'm getting at. If you're slowed, you're slowed. Imagine if there is a spell that works 'When you are too far away from your opponent, you will get stunned/slowed'. You can see the difference there, right?

Not trying to be argumentative for the sake of it, but I don't see the difference described. It's a ranged ability debuff, not a ranged class deterrant or debuff. It is an effective debuff on any class that has an ability that can be used at range. If a healer was hiding behind a pillar and was stuck with this debuff, they would have to make the choice to run in to land a heal and now expose themselves to shorter range abilities (Blind, Cyclone, etc.). I think it makes a pretty compelling case for a new type of arena synergy & CC setup.

Off the top of my head I can think of several abilities that fall outside of the, "If you're slowed, you're slowed" & more into the latter you described.

Smoke Bomb: Probably the closest example of -Range I can think of. You are effectively silenced from casting single target abilities on anyone inside of the smoke until you enter.

Remorseless Winter: It isn't a stun until you have been standing too close for too long.

Paralytic poison: It does nothing until 5 stacks, then it becomes a stun.

Ursol's vortex: Move too far away & it throws you back to the middle.

Some of those aren't perfect examples but they are all forms of CC that don't fit the model of, "If you're slowed, you're slowed" don't you think?

---------- Post added 2013-06-21 at 04:26 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Biske

How would what the OP said affect PVE? Is the warrior/monk from your own raid going to debuff you? Unless you meant that the debuff is also available to bosses and they can force you into melee/mid range, which could be just as easily accomplished by the boss having a pull mechanic after you reach a certain range.

I am not sure what he meant by balancing either. I would assume like most forms of CC in the game, it would have no effect on bosses. Now on encounters where there was some -range debuff mechanic the boss applied I could see how melee would shine, but that would only be on that specific encounter. It is no different than comparing fights with lots of movement vs little to no movement. Some fights favor certain types of DPS.

Perhaps my example was not in the right vein, since you're focusing on the mechanic of slows rather than the comparison between a binary spell effect and spells that require positional requirements.

In none of your examples of spells does it require a class to change how they are played. That is the point, that is always the point. You act and react to the situations (move out of the fire) to avoid punishment. A range debuff is not punishing a player for being out of range as much as it is forcing them to change their tactics entirely to play at a closer distance. You can't effectively heal if you are constantly out of range, and this isn't just a debuff or CC where you know you have to deal with it cuz you're caught in it. It's not even like a Mortal Strike ability where you know your effectiveness is lowered. It's completely locking out your ability to function unless you 'hug' the target at the optimal safe distance.

If it were a binary effect of locking out all range, it would be considered CC. If it softened the effects of spells over a certain range, it's a debuff mechanic similar to mortal strike, and can be worked around. A range debuff however affects core gameplay mechanics negatively because it forces the opposing player to play differently. Let's get this straight, if you played a class that casts spells at 60y range and that debuff now forces you to cast at 30y or not be able to cast at all, you're essentially changing the way that class plays. There is no spell out there in the game that has a negative effect on this scale.

This is beyond simply being numbers. The game is designed in a way that casters get long range and are balanced by the fact they have to stand and focus the target for X seconds before they can deal any damage. If this becomes interrupted or out-ranged, there is zero damage output. This range debuff effectively alters the way casters played, and I can see this more of a deterrant to playing those classes and would promote classes that rely on instant-casts and have higher mobility over those who must fully cast their spells.

I don't see this as a beneficial addition to the game due to the rules of how melee and casters work.

In none of your examples of spells does it require a class to change how they are played. It's completely locking out your ability to function unless you 'hug' the target at the optimal safe distance.

Isn't that exactly what Smoke Bomb does?

Originally Posted by Thimagryn

You can't effectively heal if you are constantly out of range, and this isn't just a debuff or CC where you know you have to deal with it cuz you're caught in it.

That is exactly what it is. A temporary debuff that you would have to deal with until it expired or you dispelled it (assuming it looks like some flavor of the example Monk spell on the OP). I am not talking about some permanent aura. I am talking about a unique form of CC where you temporarily (max 8 secs in pvp) have to deal with the situation where your abilities don't reach as far as normal (20yds instead of 40yds), not some permanent aura that makes your mage become a melee class.

I hope that clears up the intent and application of what I am describing. If not then I have failed again

I think it's an interesting mechanic, that might have some uses in PvP, and definately ofcourse in PvE encounters too if they would like to force the ranged to come hug the boss or something for whatever reason.

That is exactly what it is. A temporary debuff that you would have to deal with until it expired or you dispelled it (assuming it looks like some flavor of the example Monk spell on the OP). I am not talking about some permanent aura. I am talking about a unique form of CC where you temporarily (max 8 secs in pvp) have to deal with the situation where your abilities don't reach as far as normal (20yds instead of 40yds), not some permanent aura that makes your mage become a melee class.

I hope that clears up the intent and application of what I am describing. If not then I have failed again

I can't comment on the smoke bomb thing, but I would say that there is a noticeable magnitude of difference between Mortal Strike effects and -Range effects. The first one doesn't prevent the character from having some benefit from healing spells cast on them. It lowers the effect, but does not prevent the effect. Sometimes though that lowering is substantial enough of an effect to change how the player acts, but not always.

-Range, however, is a different kind of beast. For one, it always changes how the character acts because they now have to stand closer to the enemy or ally to do their job. In its current state, the game can't handle that kind of thing. In its future state we don't know, but it is safe to assume that adding the ability would make things more complicated, and there's only so much "complicated" that is good for the game and the devs.

I'm not sure if I've adequately described why I don't think it's a good idea. It might require more subtle and nuanced language to fully describe. I think it can be an interesting idea, but probably not for WoW because of how the game plays and how the players play the game.

Zone control abilities (Smoke Bomb, Ring of Frost) do not change the way your character plays. You react to these and you may change your tactics, but it's not affecting your gameplay. You don't control your character any differently, which is the main point.

With a range debuff, why not just have it lock all range and make it a pure CC ability? There is no reason to add a 'get in closer' clause to it, because you're effectively giving players a risk/reward system that isn't really rewarding. You aren't rewarded for playing in close distances, yet this spell promotes you to play this way to avoid punishment. It's like if you had a spell that damaged players if they kept running, and it forces them to toggle walk to stop taking damage. It's unique, but it's not rewarding gameplay.