If only all these people opposed would get together and open up a place for girls/women to stay in and have their babbies for free, then give them up for adoption. And maybe instead of violence and constant harassment, focus on education, and heaven forbid the choice we all have as humans. That would be cool to see a building nearby with a big sign that said "don't abort, come here and give your baby a life and new home". Then have a picture of a happy family with a new babby.

Johnnyflash:If only all these people opposed would get together and open up a place for girls/women to stay in and have their babbies for free, then give them up for adoption. And maybe instead of violence and constant harassment, focus on education, and heaven forbid the choice we all have as humans. That would be cool to see a building nearby with a big sign that said "don't abort, come here and give your baby a life and new home". Then have a picture of a happy family with a new babby.

FloydA:purplegiraffe: Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: SkunkWerks: When people say "killing a life", honestly what they're talking about is "killing a soul", and really, unless you're the sort of person that believes in such things, this is well out of bounds.

I don't even get how Christians arrived at the point where they consider fetuses to have a soul. The Bible is pretty clear that your soul enters you through the breath of life. Until you start breathing, you're just dust. Even under the most radical interpretation of the Bible, a zygote isn't a person.

Umm..... Have you read the thing? "I praise you beause I am ferafully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, yoru eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be." I believe an unformed body is a pretty good definition for a zygote!

I'm having a hard time thinking of my mom's "secret place" as "the depths of the earth."It could be that we're dealing with a metaphor here.

Golly, ya think? But my point was more in answer to what Sudo said about the breath of life and someone's radical interpretation of the Bible. Perhaps you/(s)he believe that 'all the days ordained' for the aforementioned zygote are only for those select zygotes who make it out safely? I'm just saying of you are going to argue BIBLE you should know all the stuff that's in there.

Joe Blowme:Johnnyflash: If only all these people opposed would get together and open up a place for girls/women to stay in and have their babbies for free, then give them up for adoption. And maybe instead of violence and constant harassment, focus on education, and heaven forbid the choice we all have as humans. That would be cool to see a building nearby with a big sign that said "don't abort, come here and give your baby a life and new home". Then have a picture of a happy family with a new babby.

Oh, sort of like this organization but without the unicornshttp://www.agapepregnancycenter.com/

purplegiraffe:FloydA: purplegiraffe: Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: SkunkWerks: When people say "killing a life", honestly what they're talking about is "killing a soul", and really, unless you're the sort of person that believes in such things, this is well out of bounds.

I don't even get how Christians arrived at the point where they consider fetuses to have a soul. The Bible is pretty clear that your soul enters you through the breath of life. Until you start breathing, you're just dust. Even under the most radical interpretation of the Bible, a zygote isn't a person.

Umm..... Have you read the thing? "I praise you beause I am ferafully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, yoru eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be." I believe an unformed body is a pretty good definition for a zygote!

I'm having a hard time thinking of my mom's "secret place" as "the depths of the earth."It could be that we're dealing with a metaphor here.

Golly, ya think? But my point was more in answer to what Sudo said about the breath of life and someone's radical interpretation of the Bible. Perhaps you/(s)he believe that 'all the days ordained' for the aforementioned zygote are only for those select zygotes who make it out safely? I'm just saying of you are going to argue BIBLE you should know all the stuff that's in there.

Your quote does not make the point that you think it makes. The quote does not suggest that the "unformed body" is alive; you are bringing that interpretation to the quote, rather than deriving it from the quote. Nothing in the quote suggests that the "ordained days" start before parturition.

Now if you already believe that life starts at some time prior to the first breath, there are certainly passages in the Bible that you can use to justify that belief, but the belief itself exists a priori. It is not, itself, derived from reading the Bible.

cs30109:zedster: Aren't late term abortions only legal in cases were the mother's life is in danger in the US?

No. Abortions are legal up until the moment of birth in the U.S., as long as some doctor is willing to do it. A doctor will always be able to find a reason to justify any abortion they want to perform---for the mother's "mental health," for instance.

except that is a complete and total lie and you are either ignorant, a troll or both.

Roe v. Wade, 410 U.S. 113 (1973), is a landmark decision by the United States Supreme Court on the issue of abortion. Decided simultaneously with a companion case, Doe v. Bolton, the Court ruled 7-2 that a right to privacy under the due process clause of the 14th Amendment extended to a woman's decision to have an abortion, but that right must be balanced against the state's two legitimate interests in regulating abortions: protecting prenatal life and protecting women's health. Arguing that these state interests became stronger over the course of a pregnancy, the Court resolved this balancing test by tying state regulation of abortion to the trimester of pregnancy.

The Court later rejected Roe's trimester framework, while affirming Roe's central holding that a person has a right to abortion until viability.[1] The Roe decision defined "viable" as being "potentially able to live outside the mother's womb, albeit with artificial aid", adding that viability "is usually placed at about seven months (28 weeks) but may occur earlier, even at 24 weeks."[2]

The definition of viability continues to be moved earlier and earlier in the pregnancy.http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7f/US_abortion_by_ges t ational_age_2004_histogram.svg

the great majority of abortions are before 12 weeks. a much smaller percentage happen before the end of 20 weeks. a tiny number happen later than that. (~1.5%)

so no, abortions are not legal up to the moment of birth. Abortions that late are only allowed in a small number of extreme case. Dying mother, extreme mutations, never because the mom changed her mind.

"I'm kind of amused (in a sickened way) that the protestors are trying to get the clinic rezoned out of existence by arguing that it will create a public nuisance because of the loud protests they'll be staging outside.

"If you let this happen we'll be loud and annoying outside it, so you shouldn't get it happen so we don't bother people"

"Nice place you have here. Be a shame if something happened to it."

Well, there *is* a reason the Mafia uses shakedown tactics like that (they work.) I guess it also applies here.

Mikey1969:Mr. Gittrich told the City Council that the clinic would create a nuisance for the neighborhood because of the protests it would attract. The planning commission is scheduled to meet this month to consider Mr. Gittrich's request to rezone the area to prohibit the clinic from opening.

Or, you could meet this month to consider NOT ALLOWING THE PROTESTS. It's easy--limit the amount of municipal property around the clinic, since legally they can't protest on the clinic's property, and if they choose to protest on someone else's property, the police can remove them as well. Have NO municipal property around the clinic, and the protesters will have to go elsewhere to be douchebags.

In reality, they're going to need a full security team. Armed guards, evacuation plans...the whole nine yards. Because apparently here in America, we value the law of the land and the rights of women so little that we're willing to kill doctors over it, and probably patients.

/If I had money, I would donate for that security team//I hope someone with money does

FloydA:purplegiraffe: FloydA: purplegiraffe: Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: SkunkWerks: When people say "killing a life", honestly what they're talking about is "killing a soul", and really, unless you're the sort of person that believes in such things, this is well out of bounds.

I don't even get how Christians arrived at the point where they consider fetuses to have a soul. The Bible is pretty clear that your soul enters you through the breath of life. Until you start breathing, you're just dust. Even under the most radical interpretation of the Bible, a zygote isn't a person.

Umm..... Have you read the thing? "I praise you beause I am ferafully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, yoru eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be." I believe an unformed body is a pretty good definition for a zygote!

I'm having a hard time thinking of my mom's "secret place" as "the depths of the earth."It could be that we're dealing with a metaphor here.

Golly, ya think? But my point was more in answer to what Sudo said about the breath of life and someone's radical interpretation of the Bible. Perhaps you/(s)he believe that 'all the days ordained' for the aforementioned zygote are only for those select zygotes who make it out safely? I'm just saying of you are going to argue BIBLE you should know all the stuff that's in there.

Your quote does not make the point that you think it makes. The quote does not suggest that the "unformed body" is alive; you are bringing that interpretation to the quote, rather than deriving it from the quote. Nothing in the quote suggests that the "ordained days" start before parturition.

Now if you already believe that life starts at some time prior to the first breath, there are certainly passages in the Bible that you can use ...

Well, I reckon you have a point there... Many would disagree with your point, but I see where you are going with this. Most fundamentalists would wonder why an All Powerful Diety would bother with ordaining the days on an unformed mass of tissue if it is not alive. But I can also see where (S)He would be performing redundant work in ordaining the days of a 'spontaneous abortion' - a still birth or perhaps those that 'die out' before the mother even knows she is pregnant... And if God is omniscient, one could safely assume that he would know the fertilized egg would end up aborted, wouldn't he? It is definitely food for thought... (having 'escaped' from a fundamentalist background, I can say that there are absolutely some preconceived ideas and beliefes I don't even know I have)

purplegiraffe:However, on the matter of drawing what not all will call 'reasonable' lines or limitations-- One must draw these lines with humans. Otherwise, if this 'life' growing inside another human is not 'special' then it stands to reason that a 'life' growing outside another human is equally not 'special'. I think your logic is flawed.

If you're suggesting that lines must be drawn nonetheless, I don't think we disagree on that point, really.

What I am suggesting is that- stringent restrictions require equally stringent reasoning. And this is absent in most arguments coming from the pro-life side of the fence.

They may try to clothe or disguise the mysticism in more "humanist" terms these days, but most of their reasoning boils down to "because God". This comes as little surprise to me. I think a modern society has a duty to demand more- even from the religious.

Look, I'm a Christian, in that I follow that actual teachings of Yeshua.Abortion, on a personal level, is wrong to my wife and I.Should we be allowed to force our opinions on a suffering pregnant woman?The fact of the matter is that Yeshua commanded us to be compassionate to all.People who shame mothers going through a difficult time are violating their Christian ethos.Obviously when you act out of hate, anger, and fear, you are not acting on behalf of Christ.Satanism has become the dominant religion in this country.Though it usually gets called Christianity.

SkunkWerks:iheartscotch: But, you'd think people that are obviously for personal freedom would be supportive of all forms of personal freedom; not just the ones that they, personally, like.

Likewise.

Difficult to have personal responsibility without the ability to choose, eh? And from what the tagline tells us, the Right side of the fence is all about personal responsibility...

I don't know what the right answer is of course, but yeah, times are strange...

Exactly! The right to choose for yourself is what, I think, makes America great.

Without that right to choose; can there be a right or a wrong? Does forcing people to make specific choices; regardless of their opinions, even if that choice seems morally superior to the other option; actually seem like a desirable situation to anyone?

/ I don't know what's right or wrong; but, I do know that taking away the right to choose for yourself will lead us to very bad places.

PsiChick:In reality, they're going to need a full security team. Armed guards, evacuation plans...the whole nine yards. Because apparently here in America, we value the law of the land and the rights of women so little that we're willing to kill doctors over it, and probably patients.

If it saves just one unborn fetus, killing a dozen people in an abortion-clinic bombing is worth it.

/Oh, and two or three fetuses that were saved from abortion, but sadly died with the mother in the blast.

IlGreven:PsiChick: In reality, they're going to need a full security team. Armed guards, evacuation plans...the whole nine yards. Because apparently here in America, we value the law of the land and the rights of women so little that we're willing to kill doctors over it, and probably patients.

If it saves just one unborn fetus, killing a dozen people in an abortion-clinic bombing is worth it.

/Oh, and two or three fetuses that were saved from abortion, but sadly died with the mother in the blast.

I wish I could take those people back in time and force them to sit at the bedside of a woman dying because she can't have an abortion. Or, hell, take them to someplace where that's probably happening today.

Lsherm:zedster: Aren't late term abortions only legal in cases were the mother's life is in danger in the US?

Depends on the state.

Incorrect: Third trimester abortion (or in fact any abortions past what is considered the point of viability, usually considered around 24 weeks) is only allowed nationally in cases where the mother's life or health are considered to be in danger, and even then is functionally only legal in Kansas and Nebraska at present. (The general cut-off point for elective abortion legally is at the point of viability, which was firmly established in Planned Parenthood v. Casey.)

In addition, there are certain abortion procedures banned outright on a federal basis, specifically dilation and extraction (D&X), which was typically done in the case of late-trimester fetuses with severe birth defects (that made them nonviable) and which could not normally be delivered vaginally. (As amazing as it sounds, most third-trimester abortions of the sort that Dr. Tiller performed before he was struck down by a dominionist terrorist group would be stillbirths or would die very early in life, and the very few physicians (in fact, there are only one or two left in the whole of North America) who perform third-trimester abortions do try to deliver an intact (if stillborn) fetus so that the parents can say goodbye. Almost to a one, late-trimester abortion is not an elective "I don't want babby" procedure but a heartbreaking choice made to end a pregnancy that has gone tragically wrong. Yes, this is even true in the extraordinarily rare cases where a very young teenager has had to have a Weeners-trimester abortion due to restrictive laws in her state--generally this is only permitted where there's evidence that the pregnancy will either kill the teen or leave her with a permanent disability--including the inability to have future children.)

And to the new doctor--GOOD ON HER FOR NOT LETTING THE GODDAMN TERRORISTS WIN.

/seriously, WHEN can we have the Army of God officially designated a domestic terrorist group and the NARasite churches protecting the terrorists and acting as their recruitment grounds officially listed as supporters of terrorism and have their assets seized under the Trading With The Enemy Act?//Not kidding, either; this is EXACTLY what the US government does with ANY org that has been linked to funding designated terrorist groups like Al Qaeda--seize and freeze their assets in the US///Also not kidding at all on the fact that NARasite leaders have actively solicited support for the Army of God domestic terrorist organisation and can be said to have actively solicited "martyrs" for the Army of God

rynthetyn:That Troy Newman fellow who's using the "Operation Rescue" name, and who's quoted in the article is quite the character. He's got ties to the Army of God domestic terrorist group, and his version of Operation Rescue broke away from the original organization because they disagreed with the original group condemning the use of force. Oh yeah, and he had at least a certain level of association with Scott Roeder, which you'd think the NY Times would have mentioned what with this being a story about reopening Tiller's clinic and all.

You'd THINK they'd pick that up, but unfortunately journalism in the mainstream press in the US has been dead, buried, and a pissed-thoroughly-on corpse since the mid-80s.

(And yes, I STILL think the Army of God needs to be formally declared a terrorist group and EVERY dominionist associated with it or who knowingly gives aid and comfort needs to be listed as a Specially Designated Person...just like we do with Al Qaeda, and just like how we do with narcoterrorist gangs. And then seize their goddamn blood money.)

Fluorescent Testicle:Realist29: While I am pro-choice - I'm glad my mom didn't have to go to some cave-like clinic in the middle of Kansas to have my skull cracked open, brain scrambled and then dissect my body to remove me from her fetus because she felt - it wasn't time yet. Late term abortions were provided for such cases in Wichita - more so than for "life threatening" cases to the mother which - by law - can be performed in any hospital. Its called a c-section.

If you're pro-choice, I'm a nine-legged spider with three kinky supermodel girlfriends.

cs30109:zedster: Aren't late term abortions only legal in cases were the mother's life is in danger in the US?

No. Abortions are legal up until the moment of birth in the U.S., as long as some doctor is willing to do it. A doctor will always be able to find a reason to justify any abortion they want to perform---for the mother's "mental health," for instance.

For those keeping score, this is not the first time cs30109 has been, shall we say, creative with the facts. This is the third thread I've personally caught him posting a statement that could be easily disproven with a quick Google search.

He's a very, ah, creative person, and you might want to keep that in mind going forward.

purplegiraffe:Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: SkunkWerks: When people say "killing a life", honestly what they're talking about is "killing a soul", and really, unless you're the sort of person that believes in such things, this is well out of bounds.

I don't even get how Christians arrived at the point where they consider fetuses to have a soul. The Bible is pretty clear that your soul enters you through the breath of life. Until you start breathing, you're just dust. Even under the most radical interpretation of the Bible, a zygote isn't a person.

Umm..... Have you read the thing? "I praise you beause I am ferafully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, yoru eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be." I believe an unformed body is a pretty good definition for a zygote!

Fair enough.

Find me a zygote woven together in the depths of the earth, then, and I'll promise not to abort it.

FloydA:purplegiraffe: FloydA: purplegiraffe: Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: SkunkWerks: When people say "killing a life", honestly what they're talking about is "killing a soul", and really, unless you're the sort of person that believes in such things, this is well out of bounds.

I don't even get how Christians arrived at the point where they consider fetuses to have a soul. The Bible is pretty clear that your soul enters you through the breath of life. Until you start breathing, you're just dust. Even under the most radical interpretation of the Bible, a zygote isn't a person.

Umm..... Have you read the thing? "I praise you beause I am ferafully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, yoru eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be." I believe an unformed body is a pretty good definition for a zygote!

I'm having a hard time thinking of my mom's "secret place" as "the depths of the earth."It could be that we're dealing with a metaphor here.

Golly, ya think? But my point was more in answer to what Sudo said about the breath of life and someone's radical interpretation of the Bible. Perhaps you/(s)he believe that 'all the days ordained' for the aforementioned zygote are only for those select zygotes who make it out safely? I'm just saying of you are going to argue BIBLE you should know all the stuff that's in there.

Your quote does not make the point that you think it makes. The quote does not suggest that the "unformed body" is alive; you are bringing that interpretation to the quote, rather than deriving it from the quote. Nothing in the quote suggests that the "ordained days" start before parturition.

Now if you already believe that life starts at some time prior to the first breath, there are certainly passages in the Bible that you can use ...

People can always, ALWAYS find some verse in the Bible that seems to support ANY point of view they like.

cman:Mid_mo_mad_man: Superfreak Economics had a how chapter about the benefits of legal abortion to society. Number one was a marked decrease in crime. Basically showed how 17 years after Roe vs Wade crime fell and keeps falling. Seventeen being the start of the "prime criminal " years. Plus they explained that with less poor children born everyone's life improved. But nobody can talk of abortion benefits

Something like this is hard to gauge on its effects upon society.

There were also other changes in this time that had an effect on crime, such as locking people up for even more pettier crimes for much longer than usual. There was also an uptick in technology leading for more crimes than ever to be solved, getting murders and rapists of the street. A greater understanding of mental health has allowed for better screening of mental illnesses.

I am not saying that abortion hasnt had any effect (affect?) on crime, but there are many variables that make this kind of thing difficult to trace.

You make a valid point. I see it as what kind of people are being aborted or having abortions. This children would grow up unwanted , poor, and disadvantaged. Prime criminal candidates.

shotglasss:ThunderPelvis: "In reality, I'd like them to be closed forever and ever, amen," said David Gittrich, the development director forKansans for Life, later adding, "We don't want to be known as a community where you go to get your babies killed."

You'd prefer to be known as a community where doctors are killed for providing legal, often life-saving medical procedures.

Anyone who kills an abortionist is a hero to real Americans. There is no case where an abortion saves a woman's life when a C section that doesn't murder a human wouldn't accomplish the same thing.

Then go back to real Americans, leave the United States to those of us who value women.

Day_Old_Dutchie:Those who are supposedly 'pro life' also tend to be the type that support the death penalty and also have a hard-on for war, Also, note most of them are MEN, who don't have a uterus anyway.

It's all about control of women's sexuality and zero to do with compassion for unborn. Oh, and getting brownie points for the afterlife from their imaginary sky-wizard is in there, too.

And those pro-lifers who are women have either already had (safe and legal) abortions of their own that they've become convinced they regret or they have zero idea of what is actually going on with their own biology (i.e. fetus is the largest organ).

LesserEvil:I'm not a big fan of either side. Extremists are assholes.... but I'll throw this into the fire:

Anti-Abortion activist killed, shot multiple times in front of Owosso High School

[i.imgur.com image 453x289]

Abortion is a complicated subject. I have no issue with having the option available, but I do have issues with people who think it's not killing a life. Sugar-coating something like that dehumanizes the primary victim and places a bias on the decision toward abortion. Let's also stop talking about a fetus as if it is some sort of body extension, since it isn't - it's a genetically differentiated form of life, dependent on the mother. As for anti-abortion people, stop pretending that all life is sacred... it isn't. Murders, violent rapists, child molesters all deserve death. Terminally ill deserve dignity. Some children deserve to be spared a terrible life. Life isn't sacred. We used to have wars that killed thousands, hundreds of thousands... millions without concern for the "sacredness" of life.Too many people on this planet as it is... and either way, we should make informed, rational decisions without the extremist nuts trying to make those decisions for us.

I'm sorry you don't like the terminology, but any fetus that dares attempt to grow inside of me is a tumor and will be treated as such.

Realist29:While I am pro-choice - I'm glad my mom didn't have to go to some cave-like clinic in the middle of Kansas to have my skull cracked open, brain scrambled and then dissect my body to remove me from her fetus because she felt - it wasn't time yet. Late term abortions were provided for such cases in Wichita - more so than for "life threatening" cases to the mother which - by law - can be performed in any hospital. Its called a c-section.

If I don't want to have a child, and I wind up pregnant with one that I somehow don't find out about until eight months in, I'm still having the damn thing aborted.

Johnnyflash:If only all these people opposed would get together and open up a place for girls/women to stay in and have their babbies for free, then give them up for adoption. And maybe instead of violence and constant harassment, focus on education, and heaven forbid the choice we all have as humans. That would be cool to see a building nearby with a big sign that said "don't abort, come here and give your baby a life and new home". Then have a picture of a happy family with a new babby.

I got into an argument with a cousin of mine about this a while ago. Her stance was that she and her friends really do plan on adopting older and special-needs children, sometime in the future. In her case, after her husband has retired and when she's finished squirting out her own (they're on #2 right now).

Oh, and even if their happy fantasy were the case for all adopted children, I would still abort my potential pregnancies, because I just plain don't want to deal with any of that shiat.

purplegiraffe:FloydA: purplegiraffe: Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: SkunkWerks: When people say "killing a life", honestly what they're talking about is "killing a soul", and really, unless you're the sort of person that believes in such things, this is well out of bounds.

I don't even get how Christians arrived at the point where they consider fetuses to have a soul. The Bible is pretty clear that your soul enters you through the breath of life. Until you start breathing, you're just dust. Even under the most radical interpretation of the Bible, a zygote isn't a person.

Umm..... Have you read the thing? "I praise you beause I am ferafully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, yoru eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be." I believe an unformed body is a pretty good definition for a zygote!

I'm having a hard time thinking of my mom's "secret place" as "the depths of the earth."It could be that we're dealing with a metaphor here.

Golly, ya think? But my point was more in answer to what Sudo said about the breath of life and someone's radical interpretation of the Bible. Perhaps you/(s)he believe that 'all the days ordained' for the aforementioned zygote are only for those select zygotes who make it out safely? I'm just saying of you are going to argue BIBLE you should know all the stuff that's in there.

Being able to see something does not inherently make it alive. I can look outside and see rocks. That does not mean that rocks are living beings.

"In reality, I'd like them to be closed forever and ever, amen," said David Gittrich, the development director for Kansans for Life, later adding, "We don't want to be known as a community where you go to get your babies killed."

No, they'd rather be known as the community where anyone who is unbeliever of their little inbred whites-only death cult is killed, instead.

jedikinkoid:Wow, you're so clever! You've completely convinced everyone that you're actually on the pro-choice side, myself included, and that the pro-choice side is as repulsively stupid as you're acting!

Someone get this man an Oscar! Bravo, bravo!

sorry i couldn't respond sooner, i got a 24-hr TIMEOUT because the modmins said that posting pics of our Hero's handiwork is considered "Graphic image content" and would make most viewers feel ill, upset, or uncomfortable. which is a bit confusing since they are the same modmins that greenlighted a thread heralding these people as HEROs :\

so apparently we are supposed to worship and praise these people but not actually review the fruit of their labor (because THAT would make some people uncomfortable)