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This thread amply illustrates how conservatives over the last two decades have been so very successful at convincing even a more liberal set of people (like many on this thread) that any sort of government entitlement program is skating close to Karl Marx.

This thread amply illustrates how conservatives over the last two decades have been so very successful at convincing even a more liberal set of people (like many on this thread) that any sort of government entitlement program is skating close to Karl Marx.

Maybe I'm hijacking, but I don't think so because it seems like Win wanted to get some healthy debate going here (which I enjoy).

I don't view ADAP as an entitlement program, because everyone is not entitled to it. You have to qualify for it, i.e. it is needs based. This is how I would prefer our tax dollars be used -- I have good insurance, so the government shouldn't have to foot my bill. Of course, this argument goes out the window the day that the US gets Universal Health Care funded by the government -- maybe my grandchildren will see that, but I doubt that I will.

Again (back on the thread) -- volunteering is NOT volunteering if its compulsory. I don't think anyone should be required to "pay back" for this assistance. I think volunteering would be an excellent idea for people who receive ADAP, as well as for those of us who don't. I, myself, am guilty of doing more "donating" than "volunteering". This thread has got me thinking about why this is -- and how I should go about changing it.

Mike

Oh yeah one more thing -- re: the Ninth Amendment"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

We may retain rights not enumerated, but that doesn't obligate the government to pay for them.

Again, not saying what is right or wrong -- just adding to the debate.

Mike

edited to correct my leaving out the word NOT in volunteering is NOT volunteering if it is compulsory. SOrry about that

I look at ADAP/Ryan White as political from the get go. It wasn't so much done for compassion to The Evil Sodomites, but more so the US political elite didn't suffer comparisons by other industrialized countries as letting portions of our populace suffer along the lines of Tanzania. They already look at us because we have not comprehensive nationalized health services and let everyone run around with automatic weapons.

Come talk to me when they start taxing the 10 million illegal aliens, that use our school, get tax dollar for college, use our welfare and social services. Then and maybe then, will you get me to feel ashamed for getting assistance.

Forgive me, everyone. This notebook has tricks I don't understand so I am forced into primitive techniques at the moment. Wesley, I really do appreciate that you are discussing/debating as opposed to arguing with me. I have been sending out p.m.'s during this thread to make sure that we are having a discussion.

Thank you for bringing focus to the newly diagnosed whom we encounter so often here in the forums in their I am lost and alone stage. Yes, it would be tremendous to create opportunities for the newly diagnosed to interact with other positive men and women, doing things, perhaps other than hiv related things, perhaps 'working' within an a.s.o. feeling useful and given the population, being able to bring up subjects which might be difficult for them.

Guilting or shaming or requiring was never on my agenda. Lifting the guilt and shame we often read about here was. If I seemed to be supporting an equation of entitlements with work/compulsory volunteering, please know that this was drifting over from the draft/compulsory/voluntary national service discussion which was never related to hiv/aids or any other entitlement programs during that discussion. It seemed to be a door which might open this discussion: would anyone here feel that...?

I thank Mike for bringing in why we may donate over volunteering and how this might make us feel? Do we feel an urge, a need to donate or volunteer to an a.s.o. whether or not we use or have ever used its services? Do we feel that it is, like ADAP, already funded and so there is no need? Do we, as hiv positive men and women feel that we of all people need to give back to (donate or volunteer) an a.s.o. because of its purpose over another not-for-profit if we had to make that decision? Do you feel the same (lift? satisfaction? empowerment?) donating that you get or would get by volunteering in some way? We don't have to wade into this, but it's worth keeping around. Win

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Winthrop Smith has published three collections of poetry: Ghetto: From The First Five; The Weigh-In: Collected Poems; Skin Check: New York Poems. The last was published in December 2006. He has a work-in-progress underway titled Starting Positions.

I think, given the state of American culture... with the heavy emphais on "hard work" and "prosperity being a sign of God's favor" (inheritances from the New England Puritans which have seeped into our national consciousness)

And Win, I know that you are absolutely not trying to make anyone feel guilty... but I think since American society already makes people on the dole feel bad for it... that asking them to "do more" is paramount to having an emotional stranglehold on these people.

Yes, shame or guilt or anything similar has not been my intention in starting this discussion. I will say, though, that the needy/poor/on the dole are not the only ones who often feel it. The wealthy do as well. It is impossible for anyone human, anyone with feeling, to ever be able to justify either the acquisition or the use of wealth and the all too often crashes of the wealthy, drug overuse, alcoholism/lifestyle of the... we see is the veneer. Wealth, like any other form of entitlement, also creates the question, the internal debate: how can I make good use of this, how can or should I give back to my community? Is cutting a check however large enough?

Thank you, David NC and J.R.E. Win

« Last Edit: January 31, 2007, 08:19:51 PM by poet »

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Winthrop Smith has published three collections of poetry: Ghetto: From The First Five; The Weigh-In: Collected Poems; Skin Check: New York Poems. The last was published in December 2006. He has a work-in-progress underway titled Starting Positions.

Quoting here, although it pulls off off-topic a bit: Its not that quantity buying power or a secret source has aided in the purchase of this food. Rather, it appears that grocery stores and food distributors have found a way to simultaneously get a tax write-off and save money on their garbage bill by sending $5000.00 "worth" of what would otherwise be dumped in the landfill for distribution to the needy.

To which I can add, as someone, again, who works at a residence for the mentally challenged who indeed receive food pantry donations from food stores, such as out of date, crushed, dented, surplus food goods: this program, with or without the Red Cross, gets the food which our guys need to live out of the trash and into their mouths. I don't argue your concerns, but want to clarify for readers that we couldn't do our work if not for this incentive. Win

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Winthrop Smith has published three collections of poetry: Ghetto: From The First Five; The Weigh-In: Collected Poems; Skin Check: New York Poems. The last was published in December 2006. He has a work-in-progress underway titled Starting Positions.

Quoting here, although it pulls off off-topic a bit: Its not that quantity buying power or a secret source has aided in the purchase of this food. Rather, it appears that grocery stores and food distributors have found a way to simultaneously get a tax write-off and save money on their garbage bill by sending $5000.00 "worth" of what would otherwise be dumped in the landfill for distribution to the needy.

To which I can add, as someone, again, who works at a residence for the mentally challenged who indeed receive food pantry donations from food stores, such as out of date, crushed, dented, surplus food goods: this program, with or without the Red Cross, gets the food which our guys need to live out of the trash and into their mouths. I don't argue your concerns, but want to clarify for readers that we couldn't do our work if not for this incentive. Win

Right here Win is a great point. See, I wasn't aware you worked for this organization or that this problem existed. That makes me want to help. My resources aren't huge, but this is something anyone could help with almost. Plug your organization and let it be known what's needed clearly.

To which I can add, as someone, again, who works at a residence for the mentally challenged who indeed receive food pantry donations from food stores, such as out of date, crushed, dented, surplus food goods: this program, with or without the Red Cross, gets the food which our guys need to live out of the trash and into their mouths. I don't argue your concerns, but want to clarify for readers that we couldn't do our work if not for this incentive. Win

The situation you face with the mentally challenged is different. A gift of day-old bread, dented tins, and over-ripe produce provides for what they may not otherwise have at all. $1000.00 may well be enough to buy $5000.00 "worth" of quality food - think retail vs wholesale and profit margins? Therefore, if the food being given out really didn't cost anything, but was simply diverted from the landfill, the poor have been cheated, the donors have been robbed and the volunteers have been duped.

No one paid for it. It would be like the Salvation Army charging retail for donated clothing.

Wesley, I'll p.m. you rather than lose this thread, BUT I will say, re: a.s.o.'s that both branches of mine on the Cape have food pantries. I can't yet tell you how large they are, how many people they serve, but I can tell you that if anyone is torn between donate and volunteer, wants to do something keeping in mind this thread's points, anything you come across on sale at your local foodstore helps your a.s.o. meet its needs if it also has a program going: food is food. If you have the interest or time, dropping off on any basis some homemade baked goods for a.s.o. staff and clients will also give you a glow. Win

Logged

Winthrop Smith has published three collections of poetry: Ghetto: From The First Five; The Weigh-In: Collected Poems; Skin Check: New York Poems. The last was published in December 2006. He has a work-in-progress underway titled Starting Positions.

The term illegal alien is used to dehumanize, mistreat, exploit, and deny inalienable rights, to those picking our produce, cleaning our houses, taking care of our elderly, basically doing the shit work. And by the way they do pay taxes, they just can't file a return. Because our government is only happy to take taxes even on bogus tax id numbers. Financial help is not available for people without legal status. Children no matter what their status have a right to an education constitutionally. Anywayt this person's bitter comments are irrelevant to the matter at hand. Sorry for the highjack.

The term illegal alien is used to dehumanize, mistreat, exploit, and deny inalienable rights, to those picking our produce, cleaning our houses, taking care of our elderly, basically doing the shit work. Someone's name should be changed to rabid racist.

You just don't ever stop, do you? Just constantly demonize anyone and everyone here who you says anything that you take umbrage to... you should just stop it because I am getting sick to death of reading your non-stop ad hominem attacks on anyone who you find to be offensive.

My apologies to Rapid Rod. I will remove the dig. His comment had really nothing to do with the thread, but to blame the industrious hard working people who just came here for a better life. Must be my Sustiva talking. Too bad I can't have a cold one.

It's all about ethics. And, ethics tend to be gray. We are raised to believe the following two things:

It is the right thing to do to help others in need. Those who accept help should be thankful.

This seems to be a conflict. The "charity vs gratitude" conflict. Is it really?

We have reasons why this charity.. in this case a government program.. is something to which we are entitled"

The government has an obligation to promote the general welfare. Universal healthcare is a right, not a privilege. We pay taxes, which act as a form of insurance.. When we get sick, we have rights.

Also, we have reasons why thanksgiving is of importance here:

Others who receive help from the government have to repay it. Doing one good deed in exchange for another is an ethical obligation with which we tend to be raised.

Lastly, it is not a reasonable expectation that someone who is critically ill be obliged to "pay back" the gift of the government. Most of the arguments above really fall along these lines. It is, in my opinion, not reasonable to enforce ethics upon individuals with laws. (and here, i am not talking about the "thou shall not kill" type of edict, but the "do unto others" type) You cannot force someone to be thankful for ADAP by requiring them to do some work for society. You can only force that person to do the work. If it is not done willingly, then it is not thanks at all, but duty. And, at the risk of being tautological... duty is not thanks.

Likewise, should we deny charity to those who do not exhibit thanks? Perhaps the only thing that ever resonated with me from Christianity is the edict that we do good without any expectation of any kind of return of that good. In other words, be good, do good, regardless of the reward. This view, straight from Ecclesiastes, for me is in direct opposition to the prevailing ethical motivation for many... I should be good or I will be punished.

In the end, I would argue that this discussion is distressing. We, the people, in the form of the government in this case... should support the granting of ADAP without any expectation of a return of thanks from the recipients. Likewise, the recipients should return that good to the world in the form of thanks. However, there should be no requirement as to the form that thanks takes.

Sorry for being so obstruse. puck

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Floating through the void in the caress of two giant pink lobsters named Esmerelda and Keith.

It's all about ethics. And, ethics tend to be gray. We are raised to believe the following two things:

It is the right thing to do to help others in need. Those who accept help should be thankful.

This seems to be a conflict. The "charity vs gratitude" conflict. Is it really?

We have reasons why this charity.. in this case a government program.. is something to which we are entitled"

The government has an obligation to promote the general welfare. Universal healthcare is a right, not a privilege. We pay taxes, which act as a form of insurance.. When we get sick, we have rights.

Also, we have reasons why thanksgiving is of importance here:

Others who receive help from the government have to repay it. Doing one good deed in exchange for another is an ethical obligation with which we tend to be raised.

Lastly, it is not a reasonable expectation that someone who is critically ill be obliged to "pay back" the gift of the government. Most of the arguments above really fall along these lines. It is, in my opinion, not reasonable to enforce ethics upon individuals with laws. (and here, i am not talking about the "thou shall not kill" type of edict, but the "do unto others" type) You cannot force someone to be thankful for ADAP by requiring them to do some work for society. You can only force that person to do the work. If it is not done willingly, then it is not thanks at all, but duty. And, at the risk of being tautological... duty is not thanks.

Likewise, should we deny charity to those who do not exhibit thanks? Perhaps the only thing that ever resonated with me from Christianity is the edict that we do good without any expectation of any kind of return of that good. In other words, be good, do good, regardless of the reward. This view, straight from Ecclesiastes, for me is in direct opposition to the prevailing ethical motivation for many... I should be good or I will be punished.

In the end, I would argue that this discussion is distressing. We, the people, in the form of the government in this case... should support the granting of ADAP without any expectation of a return of thanks from the recipients. Likewise, the recipients should return that good to the world in the form of thanks. However, there should be no requirement as to the form that thanks takes.

Sorry for being so obstruse. puck

I tend to agree with much of what you have brought up.

It is the right thing to do to help others in need. Those who accept help should be thankful.

These words struck me. Immediately, I'm reminded of the Hurricane Katrina victims for some reason. I know that's a horrible example of giving back, but so many felt empathy and tried to do the right thing, but the government on all levels failed and it's still a mess.

I guess the point I'm making however off track is some of those people were grateful and gave back. Other's are still bitter and mad as Hell.

But then what's to stop the government from requiring us to "give back" something for freedom of speech? I'm not trying to make your point absurd, but I am always inherently uncomfortable when the government forces citizens to "sacrifice" something. It's not "service" when it's done under compulsion... it's more akin to slavery.

Most definitely. I guess it would be a bit more accurate to say that I don't think there's a thing in the world wrong with the suggestion that people contribute somehow. I think Win said what I was trying to get at:

Wesley, I'll p.m. you rather than lose this thread, BUT I will say, re: a.s.o.'s that both branches of mine on the Cape have food pantries. I can't yet tell you how large they are, how many people they serve, but I can tell you that if anyone is torn between donate and volunteer, wants to do something keeping in mind this thread's points, anything you come across on sale at your local foodstore helps your a.s.o. meet its needs if it also has a program going: food is food. If you have the interest or time, dropping off on any basis some homemade baked goods for a.s.o. staff and clients will also give you a glow. Win

After all, the subject of the thread is "ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?" I never meant to imply that something should be required. Such a system would be impractical to implement and regulate.

The term illegal alien is used to dehumanize, mistreat, exploit, and deny inalienable rights, to those picking our produce, cleaning our houses, taking care of our elderly, basically doing the shit work. And by the way they do pay taxes, they just can't file a return. Because our government is only happy to take taxes even on bogus tax id numbers. Financial help is not available for people without legal status. Children no matter what their status have a right to an education constitutionally. Anywayt this person's bitter comments are irrelevant to the matter at hand. Sorry for the highjack.

Rob, you are on target about illegal alliens and where their tax dollars go if collected. I was tempted to hijack the discussion to point this out myself, but caught myself.

What I missed until I read another post and looked more carefully is what we are going to have to work on in the forums and this is NOT addressed at any one person. Some of the topics can set each of us off. If it sets us off, if it gets us thinking about things, that's one of the points of spending time here, right? I worded the title of this thread in the hope of starting a debate, but not in the hope of enabling baiting and sideswipes at other posters. When in doubt, use 'I,' as in 'I feel this way' or 'I feel that way.' Much as it feels as though the other posters are across the table from us, curb the 'you' as in 'you said...' 'how could you....' Another thread was timeconsuming to get through because of the sniping and yet the purpose of the thread, the debate going on within it, was worth the effort of dodging objects. Win

« Last Edit: February 01, 2007, 07:07:55 AM by poet »

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Winthrop Smith has published three collections of poetry: Ghetto: From The First Five; The Weigh-In: Collected Poems; Skin Check: New York Poems. The last was published in December 2006. He has a work-in-progress underway titled Starting Positions.

Getting to Puck, let me thank everyone else who has posted comments here but whom I have not previously thanked for his/her thoughts, including Lisa who was right to interject activism if only because self-empowerment is, for me, a form of activism.

Murky, perhaps, to define 'thankful,' how someone 'should be thankful?' As a staff member with the mentally challenged, I constantly hear other staff members reminding the guys to say thank you to someone. But if they don't get the concept as our guys may not, does it 'count?' Is this, Puck or anyone, like forcing people to be thankful, to show thankfulness by doing something? I would agree that forcing thankfulness gets us nowhere. The person doing the thanking doesn't feel empowered by his or her action. He or she feels forced. Requiring work in return for ADAP, to return to the thread topic, doesn't, for me work, but that leaves open the door to someone offering his or her services-volunteering them- and it leaves open the responsibility, perhaps, of an a.s.o. to show someone volunteer oportunities.

To pull things all the way back to the radioopensource.org discussion, how is it that we have reached the point that some people pause at the equation, pause at 'compulsory' and pause at 'volunteer?' It's something that I noticed, moving from NYC to the Cape: you don't think here when someone has dropped something, needs a driveway plowed, has a package delivered to them when they aren't home. How is it, as someone p.m.'d to me last night, that the instinct to return a favor, offset a benefit, accept something needed but automatically find something which can be given back has somehow gotten lost? Why do we chafe at the concept? Why do we have to list what we already do give/pay out as if to say, 'so leave me alone'? Win

« Last Edit: February 01, 2007, 07:39:33 AM by poet »

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Winthrop Smith has published three collections of poetry: Ghetto: From The First Five; The Weigh-In: Collected Poems; Skin Check: New York Poems. The last was published in December 2006. He has a work-in-progress underway titled Starting Positions.

2) Even subtle hints regarding volunteer opportunities can be coercive. That coercion could very well lead the people in need of the services/entitlement to forego those services rather than be subjected to pressure and coercion, being made to feel guilty, etc.

3) The door is always open for someone to volunteer.

So, really your topic is simply whether people are inherently good and will do what they can and what they should or whether people are selfish and evil and must be controlled by society. I vote for the preservation of the dignity of the individual.

Requiring work in return for ADAP, to return to the thread topic, doesn't, for me work, but that leaves open the door to someone offering his or her services-volunteering them- and it leaves open the responsibility, perhaps, of an a.s.o. to show someone volunteer oportunities.

I guess I somewhat agree with this statement, but only a little. I have to give back for my benefits. I'm required to work and receive benefits (as well as an income) in return. The State (my employer) doesn't pay me plus give me benefits and allow me to decide whether or not I should have to come to work. If my showing up for work stops, so do my benefits.

Although I don't have the option to receive my benefits without working, I still feel thankful. I should. I try to show my thanks to my employer by being a decent employee and doing a good job. I think those receiving ANY sort of benefits that are not directly tied to work and a paycheck should also be thankful. There are so many that don't / can't receive benefits for a variety of reasons (those that died while waiting on South Carolina's ADAP program, for example) that I'd think that most of us who are insured, on ADAP, or on some other sort of assistance program would be willing to do something (within their abilities) in return.

2) Even subtle hints regarding volunteer opportunities can be coercive. That coercion could very well lead the people in need of the services/entitlement to forego those services rather than be subjected to pressure and coercion, being made to feel guilty, etc.

3) The door is always open for someone to volunteer.

So, really your topic is simply whether people are inherently good and will do what they can and what they should or whether people are selfish and evil and must be controlled by society. I vote for the preservation of the dignity of the individual.

With 2 above, it is tricky, agreed. I hope that I have made it clear, over and over, that opportunities are a way of anyone experiencing guilt or shame or anything similar if he or she feels like taking them up, feels encouraged in the mental health way that we are required to 'encourage' our guys to maximise their capabilities. How? By taking at look at their capabilities and their limitations and either finding things that they can do or ways that they can do things, which brings us back to the point that no one should feel that there is nothing that he or she can offer because the staff of an a.s.o., sitting with the full file, should be trained to connect the dots. Who else other than an a.s.o. staff member who, hopefully, understands hiv/aids, can do this, as well as the community advisory board members, right? Always, always voluntary.

With 3 above, see 2. When I looked at the volunteer opportunities on our website, delivering meals, working in the kitchen, etc., none of them would answer the needs of Bear's partner, Kurt. They show volunteer gaps in thinking and because we know that many people would be shy about pointing out what they can't do, dead ends which we are responsible, I hope, for seeing and solving.

My topic is not on whether people are inherently good or bad. My topic, which came out of a discussion about national service, whether, to keep America the country that it is and has been, national service, whether compulsory or voluntary, is something which we should have. So, to get this debate going, I said if the price of peace is having the military, is there, should there be, a price for something like ADAP. That is what we have been discussing. Win

Logged

Winthrop Smith has published three collections of poetry: Ghetto: From The First Five; The Weigh-In: Collected Poems; Skin Check: New York Poems. The last was published in December 2006. He has a work-in-progress underway titled Starting Positions.

Getting to Puck, let me thank everyone else who has posted comments here but whom I have not previously thanked for his/her thoughts, including Lisa who was right to interject activism if only because self-empowerment is, for me, a form of activism.

Murky, perhaps, to define 'thankful,' how someone 'should be thankful?' As a staff member with the mentally challenged, I constantly hear other staff members reminding the guys to say thank you to someone. But if they don't get the concept as our guys may not, does it 'count?' Is this, Puck or anyone, like forcing people to be thankful, to show thankfulness by doing something? I would agree that forcing thankfulness gets us nowhere. The person doing the thanking doesn't feel empowered by his or her action. He or she feels forced. Requiring work in return for ADAP, to return to the thread topic, doesn't, for me work, but that leaves open the door to someone offering his or her services-volunteering them- and it leaves open the responsibility, perhaps, of an a.s.o. to show someone volunteer oportunities.

To pull things all the way back to the radioopensource.org discussion, how is it that we have reached the point that some people pause at the equation, pause at 'compulsory' and pause at 'volunteer?' It's something that I noticed, moving from NYC to the Cape: you don't think here when someone has dropped something, needs a driveway plowed, has a package delivered to them when they aren't home. How is it, as someone p.m.'d to me last night, that the instinct to return a favor, offset a benefit, accept something needed but automatically find something which can be given back has somehow gotten lost? Why do we chafe at the concept? Why do we have to list what we already do give/pay out as if to say, 'so leave me alone'? Win

Hey Win,

Hmm, I can see how degrading it would be to have some staff member tell a paitient to say thank you. Isn't it enough if the staff member just says thanks?

However, I understand that whoever the donor was might not come back again if they feel unappreciated or aknowledged.

Sidetracking again, Wesley? Our guys, the residents, are not 'patients' for us as residential staff members. It's their house. We just work there. In fact one of the guys loves firing everyone. I was fired because I brought the tine of the fork to his teeth while feeding him breakfast. The other staff member was fired because he wanted the wrong team to win. But, when I reminded him that there was no one left then to cook him his breakfast, he rehired us or, rather, said, 'you know that I was kidding?' The most recent thanking reminder was to another of the guys to whom I had brought the t.v. section and comics. It's the constant reminding the guys of expectations out there as we work on their behaviour. Win

Logged

Winthrop Smith has published three collections of poetry: Ghetto: From The First Five; The Weigh-In: Collected Poems; Skin Check: New York Poems. The last was published in December 2006. He has a work-in-progress underway titled Starting Positions.

2) Even subtle hints regarding volunteer opportunities can be coercive. That coercion could very well lead the people in need of the services/entitlement to forego those services rather than be subjected to pressure and coercion, being made to feel guilty, etc.

3) The door is always open for someone to volunteer.

So, really your topic is simply whether people are inherently good and will do what they can and what they should or whether people are selfish and evil and must be controlled by society. I vote for the preservation of the dignity of the individual.

I agree with your points completely, especially the 2nd one. I'd done a public article when I found out I was positive last year. After, I had every gay and HIV organization hitting me up for this or that or wanting me to volunteer etc. When I have declined various offers I've been snubbed by these people and thier various organizations. I shall leave names out, but I can tell you coercive tactics are obnoxious and repelled me from lending a helping hand to any of these people or organizations.

With 2 above, it is tricky, agreed. I hope that I have made it clear, over and over, that opportunities are a way of anyone experiencing guilt or shame or anything similar if he or she feels like taking them up, feels encouraged in the mental health way that we are required to 'encourage' our guys to maximise their capabilities. How? By taking at look at their capabilities and their limitations and either finding things that they can do or ways that they can do things, which brings us back to the point that no one should feel that there is nothing that he or she can offer because the staff of an a.s.o., sitting with the full file, should be trained to connect the dots. Who else other than an a.s.o. staff member who, hopefully, understands hiv/aids, can do this, as well as the community advisory board members, right? Always, always voluntary.

With 3 above, see 2. When I looked at the volunteer opportunities on our website, delivering meals, working in the kitchen, etc., none of them would answer the needs of Bear's partner, Kurt. They show volunteer gaps in thinking and because we know that many people would be shy about pointing out what they can't do, dead ends which we are responsible, I hope, for seeing and solving.

My topic is not on whether people are inherently good or bad. My topic, which came out of a discussion about national service, whether, to keep America the country that it is and has been, national service, whether compulsory or voluntary, is something which we should have. So, to get this debate going, I said if the price of peace is having the military, is there, should there be, a price for something like ADAP. That is what we have been discussing. Win

Somewhat. A discussion should grow and examine finer points along the way. It seems that a lot of your perspective comes from working with mentally disabled people. I think those on ADAP have a bit more on their minds than whether you hit their tooth with the tine of a fork or the wrong team won. They might have worries about how to pay the rent, where their next meal will come from, will there be heat, will I get my meds, and myriad other daily stresses that the mentally disabled just need not face because, as a society, we take care of them. We take care of ADAP recipients, somewhat. Thats where the similarity ends.

So, again comparing apples to oranges, you suggest that evaluating a developmentally disabled person to try and expand their capabilities is similar to evaluating an ADAP recipient to see what they can repay and how. You just don't seem to get it. People get ADAP because they don't have resources to pay. You may then counter that surely they have time. Wrong. ADAP recipients are busy surviving. They don't have the time or energy to endure national service requirements or indentured volunteerism. If those who do have the time and energy choose to volunteer, great.

I find it incredible that you suggest national service as a way for those on ADAP to get rid of their guilt or shame for being on ADAP? What guilt or shame is it that these poor souls should further endure by being labelled unpatriotic, un-American, or just plain, bad, if they fail to do their part in "keeping America the country that it is and has been through national service." So, yes, you are asking whether people are good or bad and whether society should compel good behaviour through national service.

Kurt has a lot of talent with computers and unless he were here, I would NOT be on here making this post. He does not want to join in discussion, cannot be "active" and on his feet, but he knows more than most of us about computers.Kurt is one of the most guilt free people I know.

My topic is not on whether people are inherently good or bad. My topic, which came out of a discussion about national service, whether, to keep America the country that it is and has been, national service, whether compulsory or voluntary, is something which we should have. So, to get this debate going, I said if the price of peace is having the military, is there, should there be, a price for something like ADAP. That is what we have been discussing. Win

I would debate whether America is or ever has been the country of national service. Every bit of evidence you could present that we are a country of national service could easily be countered by equally persuasive evidence that it is not. (Draft vs draft dodgers, christian charity vs christianity, inc.). I would say that any ideal of America which includes the rosey and Reaganesque city on the hill of happily serving volunteers needs a dose of reality. In my opinion, it is an idealized reaction to the reality that charity and volunteer service is basically incompatible with capitalism.

That does not stop people from doing so. In fact, in my opinion, it is part of human nature that when it comes face to face with suffering to want to do something. However, it is equally a part of human nature to ignore suffering when it is not apparent. Americans are no more human than anyone else, and I feel deeply uncomfortable with the implication that there is any kind of ethical birthright to the accident of geography which is citizenship.

Therefore I stand by my original thesis that it is an ethical obligation of human society to help the less fortunate without expectation of reward and it is the ethical obligation of the helped to appreciate it without reference to the form of appreciation.

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Floating through the void in the caress of two giant pink lobsters named Esmerelda and Keith.

OK WinI made the effort to ask Kurt how he feels about this mandatory national service for people who recieve ADAP or Ryan White Fund drug assistence.He was very very much against it. I asked why.He said:1 Not everyone will be ABLE to do it2 Some will not be able to make the TIME to do it3 It smacks of "you're bad" so you have to pay a penalty. ( The old stigma problem )So, you have gotten the response from someone who does not post on the boards at all and who knew NOTHING about this discussion before I asked him to give me an opinion.

Somewhat. A discussion should grow and examine finer points along the way. It seems that a lot of your perspective comes from working with mentally disabled people. I think those on ADAP have a bit more on their minds than whether you hit their tooth with the tine of a fork or the wrong team won. They might have worries about how to pay the rent, where their next meal will come from, will there be heat, will I get my meds, and myriad other daily stresses that the mentally disabled just need not face because, as a society, we take care of them. We take care of ADAP recipients, somewhat. Thats where the similarity ends.

So, again comparing apples to oranges, you suggest that evaluating a developmentally disabled person to try and expand their capabilities is similar to evaluating an ADAP recipient to see what they can repay and how. You just don't seem to get it. People get ADAP because they don't have resources to pay. You may then counter that surely they have time. Wrong. ADAP recipients are busy surviving. They don't have the time or energy to endure national service requirements or indentured volunteerism. If those who do have the time and energy choose to volunteer, great.

I find it incredible that you suggest national service as a way for those on ADAP to get rid of their guilt or shame for being on ADAP? What guilt or shame is it that these poor souls should further endure by being labelled unpatriotic, un-American, or just plain, bad, if they fail to do their part in "keeping America the country that it is and has been through national service." So, yes, you are asking whether people are good or bad and whether society should compel good behaviour through national service.

My fault with the aside in reply to Wesley (about the guys thanking and what they seem to grasp.) I seriously doubt that any of the four guys I work with have the ability to sress over rent, meals or heat and, with one of the guys, his stress over medications is of a different sort entirely. I'm sorry if this has confused the thread's discussion.

As for those on ADAP and what at least one of them had on his mind, I was someone on ADAP in New York. Again, I brought ADAP into the picture because of the easily understood line between the Ryan White Act and ADAP funding. So, coming out of the discussion about national service, I then created a thread about entitlements and asked a question to stimulate some thinking about them.

I brought into the discussion what I now, having read through this thread, feel may be- may be- a fault in our thinking from the a.s.o. angle, that we perhaps fail to take into account capabilities. As someone who was on ADAP, I actually do know what resources I had and what time I had and am equally aware that my situation will be different from person x, or y, or z. At no point have I suggested either national service of indentured volunteerism as answers. Remember, questions that I pull out, unless they are followed by something like, 'I think that...' are meant to feed a discussion. Finally, what I have found in these forums is lot's of expressions of guilt and shame, largely connected to seroconversion, guilt and shame that I am working my best here to lift, not and never apply.

This is why I encourage people who are posting to get heated, start thinking, but to tell us what 'you' think as in 'I think this' or 'I think that' and not tell anyone one of us 'you' think this or that. Win

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Winthrop Smith has published three collections of poetry: Ghetto: From The First Five; The Weigh-In: Collected Poems; Skin Check: New York Poems. The last was published in December 2006. He has a work-in-progress underway titled Starting Positions.

Thanks, Bear, for Kurt's first sideways post. I hope you let him know that he has now participated? We have our community advisory board meeting tomorrow and this subject as well as the one on is health care a right might drive some more clients to attend a future meeting. This was not my thinking behind starting the thread, but since it has had a good run here, it might have a good run when we can look at each other across a table and talk about this in real time. Best, Win

Logged

Winthrop Smith has published three collections of poetry: Ghetto: From The First Five; The Weigh-In: Collected Poems; Skin Check: New York Poems. The last was published in December 2006. He has a work-in-progress underway titled Starting Positions.

As long as two or more people feel that they have been able to get out there where they stand and why, I think that a good thing has happened. If each of them feels that he or she was respected for clearly expressing his or her opinion, I would think that even better, whether or not everyone could agree with that position. I feel that we grow so much here in the forums by stretching our brains, working with the contradictory, by being forced to hear things out, perhaps for the first time. Best, Win

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Winthrop Smith has published three collections of poetry: Ghetto: From The First Five; The Weigh-In: Collected Poems; Skin Check: New York Poems. The last was published in December 2006. He has a work-in-progress underway titled Starting Positions.

I'm surprised you used the pronoun "I" in three places in your last post. Your post could, of course, be rewritten as follows:

As long as two or more people feel that they have been able to get out there where they stand and why, [I think that] a good thing has happened. If each of them feels that he or she was respected for clearly expressing his or her opinion, [I would think] that [is] even better, whether or not everyone could agree with that position. [I feel that] [W]e grow so much here in the forums by stretching our brains, working with the contradictory, by being forced to hear things out, perhaps for the first time. Best, Win

That way there would be no possibility of anyone concluding that you had any opinion whatsoever. Except, that it is implicit in writing unless stated otherwise or extremely clear from the context that what is written does reflect the perspective of the author? When it isn't clear what you are attempting to express, I will restate what I think you think or meant as I truly enjoy learning especially about perspectives beyond my somewhat limited perspective.

That's a great question; I intend to read all the responses so far at work tonight. I did, however, want to comment on the original post, briefly. I think that ADAP should be given out with a sliding scale. In other words, those on disability or zero income should get their meds for free. Those who make over $200,000 a year should probably be able to pay for their meds on their own. For the rest of us (LIKE ME!), we're screwed as the program is right now.

I have (very basic) health insurance. I make $800 a month working full-time. I pay $134 for my health insurance. Because my insurance pays a percentage of prescription coverage, I've now been kicked off ADAP in my state. Now I can't afford meds AT ALL. There should be something to fill the gap. If I were to pay for my meds now, I will have to come up with over $400 a month to pay the part my insurance doesn't pay. It might as well be $4,000,000 a month; I can't afford it.

Even with my proof of (low) income, I can't stay on ADAP. That is so unfair. Anyone have an opinion? Wish me luck; I got my last ADAP meds yesterday : (

Sorry to leave you hanging there, Sam. I wasn't sure if you were going to make another post after reading through the posts. I also had a report about the income gap between people and how it is thought about at Amherst College here in MA which was on NPR on Tuesday afternoon. In their report, we heard from a guy from a low/modest income family who was amazed that one of his peers was driving a Porche. How some at the college feel that it is part of its role to level the playing field, to make sure that opportunities (an internship during the Summer in Washington, DC, for example) aren't off the table because of someone's family's income. So your sliding scale comment made me start to think about a gap, there is no single program out there which ties in housing, food, drugs, medical care for someone with hiv/aids. ADAP is, by definition, an assistance program for drugs for many, healthcare itself sometimes being in there, but to varying degrees. So it's up to case workers to bring all the needed programs to a client.

If we use you as an example, if you are grossing/netting (?) $800.00/month, where does that get you in terms of the larger picture, drugs, healthcare, housing, food, gas, utilities? Win

Logged

Winthrop Smith has published three collections of poetry: Ghetto: From The First Five; The Weigh-In: Collected Poems; Skin Check: New York Poems. The last was published in December 2006. He has a work-in-progress underway titled Starting Positions.