If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Re: How can you tell if an end-times prophecy is literal or spiritual?

Originally Posted by Andy Shanks

Verity says: "We are not left in doubt as to what city this is. The city is obviously Jerusalem because in this same verse we are told that it is where our Lord was crucified."

Not so fast. Our Lord was crucified in this world, crucified by people who represented false religion. Revelation 11:8 may be talking about this world and its false religions or maybe a future one world false religion. It might be nothing to do with a literal Jerusalem.

The Lord was crucified in Jerusalem.

Mat_16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

Luk 18:31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.
Luk 18:32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:
Luk 18:33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.

Re: How can you tell if an end-times prophecy is literal or spiritual?

Originally Posted by Fenris

So having had many discussions on end-times prophecies here, I realize that many Christians read many end-times prophecies, especially OT prophecies, as being fulfilled "spiritually" rather than literally. My question is, how does one know? How does one make the determination as to which will actually happen, and which either already happened or will happen, but in the spiritual realm?

Please illuminate.

You are addressing the great divide in Christian eschatology. The historic position of the apostolic fathers was very closely related to the Jewish hermenutics on prophecy. The prophecies were based in a grammatical historical approach which lead to a more literal view of the kingdom of God. IOW, the early Chiliast believed that the Kingdom of God would be established physically on the earth, the curse would be lifted and the messiah would rule the nations from a unified Israel and that the saints would be restored and regather to the land promised to the Patrarchs after the resurrection of the dead.

It was later Christian writers from Alexandria Egypt who introduced a primary allegorical interpretation to the prophetic scriptures. This lead to the doctrines of Postmillennialism and Amillennailism that was systemized under St Augustine. These along with different forms of preterism are necessarily sustained by the allegorization of the Old Testament prophecies.

The grammatical historical approach to scriptures emphasizes the literal meaning while allowing for figures of speech within its framework. This is the method use in common language and dialogue. However, all figures of speech must logically point to a literal point in order to be cognitive.

Re: How can you tell if an end-times prophecy is literal or spiritual?

Originally Posted by Andy Shanks

Uhh? I haven't a clue what you mean by that.

Just a guess, but maybe he is meaning, that instead of the NHNE being a process that might involve time, such as the 6 days of creation were a process that involved time, Amils apparently think that God snaps His fingers, and in that same split second a NHNE appears. It's not that God couldn't do that, I'm sure He could. He could have also just snapped His fingers in the beginning, and instead of Him investing 6 days into forming and creating things, He could have done all of that in a split second. Yet He didn't.

Re: How can you tell if an end-times prophecy is literal or spiritual?

Originally Posted by divaD

As to Ch 21 and 22 though, I don't know if I would go as far as to say 'obviously'. It's not obvious to me that the NHNE is after the thousand years. Isaiah 65 doesn't seem to think it is.

diva,

The new heavens and new earth in Isaiah 65 is not the same as the new heaven and earth described in Rev 21 and 22. The first is the restored kingdom for Israel. The second is new in every sense. The former heaven and earth will be passed away. There will be no place for them.

The name of the city in Isaiah is "Jerusalem." Is 65:18
The name of the city in Rev 21,22 is "New Jerusalem." Rev 21:2

The position of the city in Is 65 is "My holy mountain." Is 65:25/Is 66:20
The position of the city in Rev is that it comes down out of heaven already prepared/built by God. Rev 21:2,10 Also, Heb 11:10

There are sinners mentioned in Isaiah 65:20.
There is no sin in the holy city in Rev. Rev 21:27.

There is a description of the restored temple in the promised land. Ezek 45. The sea is mentioned in Ezek 47. (the borders of the land)
There is no temple in New Jerusalem. Rev 21:22 There will be no sea. Rev 21:1

Re: How can you tell if an end-times prophecy is literal or spiritual?

Originally Posted by verity

diva,

The new heavens and new earth in Isaiah 65 is not the same as the new heaven and earth described in Rev 21 and 22. The first is the restored kingdom for Israel. The second is new in every sense. The former heaven and earth will be passed away. There will be no place for them.

The name of the city in Isaiah is "Jerusalem." Is 65:18
The name of the city in Rev 21,22 is "New Jerusalem." Rev 21:2

The position of the city in Is 65 is "My holy mountain." Is 65:25/Is 66:20
The position of the city in Rev is that it comes down out of heaven already prepared/built by God. Rev 21:2,10 Also, Heb 11:10

There are sinners mentioned in Isaiah 65:20.
There is no sin in the holy city in Rev. Rev 21:27.

There is a description of the restored temple in the promised land. Ezek 45. The sea is mentioned in Ezek 47. (the borders of the land)
There is no temple in New Jerusalem. Rev 21:22 There will be no sea. Rev 21:1

Sorry, but though this is a standard position it is full of holes.

Firstly you have God making TWO NHNE's - why? What a weird thought!
Further Rev 21 states:
Rev 21:1* Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.

You however have a first earth (meaning the present one), then a new one (which is therefore the second), and then ANOTHER new one, which would be the third and not following the first.

Now dealing with your points:
Are you a new creation? If so has the old you complete disappeared? Why claim something for the earth which isn't even true for yourself?
Perhaps you are basing of this verse I quoted - yet we need to ask ourselves what is it meaning, that it has passed away. Is it speaking of a physical reality or a spiritual one? Now when you say, I have spiritually changed, which is why I am new, the same is true for the old earth - the dominion of Man is replaced by the dominion of Jesus.

In Isaiah it is a new Jerusalem, for it is in a new earth, so obviously it is not the old. The fact it hasn't been prefixed with the word new isn't necessary.
In Rev when the NJ comes down, where does it come down to? It will leave heaven to a place on earth - any idea where that place will be? You see Revelation doesn't state anything contrary to Isaiah.

Did you not now that Rev 21 & 22 speaks of sinners? They are OUTSIDE Jerusalem, but they are still in existence.
Note Rev 21:12 has angels at the gate - why? The role seems to be the same as the angel at the Garden of Eden.
21:24 has nations, and kings. 25 has gates which are open - so you can come in and go out - there is a whole world beyond the NJ. 21:27 states that the impure things will not enter it, which again speaks of there being impure things.
22:2 speaks of the leaves for healing the aforementioned nations.
22:14 speaks of those who have the right to enter, and about others who are outside who do not.

Actually there is a temple in the NJ. this is one that gets a lot of people. What is the temple? It is the throne room of God. At present this is in heaven, but when Jesus descends to rule on earth, His throne room (from whence flows the river) will be in the NJ.
So a man-made temple will not exist, but the TRUE temple will. Revelation tells us about this.

There will also be the sea. This has been true from the beginning of the creation of the world. Read Genesis 1 to get this.
So again we need to ask ourselves what does sea mean in the Bible and especially in Revelation.
In Rev 20 it is the place of the dead, it is also in Rev 13 the place from which the beast comes. Neither of these seas are physical places. The sea is a symbol of a change, just like the mention of no temple, for there will be no intermediary for us with God, for we will be with Him.

I hope this clarifies for you. There are yet more arguments which show that the NHNE comes at the time of Jesus, but I'll leave you to consider these. It is one reason Amils reject Premil, because most have the NHNE coming AFTER the Millennium, yet the truth is it comes with Jesus. He sets the world free of its curse.

Originally Posted by divaD

Just a guess, but maybe he is meaning, that instead of the NHNE being a process that might involve time, such as the 6 days of creation were a process that involved time, Amils apparently think that God snaps His fingers, and in that same split second a NHNE appears. It's not that God couldn't do that, I'm sure He could. He could have also just snapped His fingers in the beginning, and instead of Him investing 6 days into forming and creating things, He could have done all of that in a split second. Yet He didn't.

Re: How can you tell if an end-times prophecy is literal or spiritual?

Originally Posted by jeffweeder

Yes, very true he does. We look forward to a NHNE where only righteousness dwells.

God created heaven and earth very good without sin and death. He then prepared Eden on it.
So he will again create all things anew and without curse, and the place prepared for us on it is the NJ and Jesus Christ as the cornerstone that will never fall under a curse again.

Gods promises of complete restoration down through the ages are then fulfilled.

Re: How can you tell if an end-times prophecy is literal or spiritual?

Originally Posted by Sonajero

That one is easy, and it's easy enough to identify the major players in Revelation.

The beast is Hillary Clinton. The false prophet is Hillary Clinton. The being with frogs coming out of its mouth is Hillary Clinton, and so are the frogs. The four horsemen are all Hillary Clinton. The horses they ride are Hillary Clinton. Babylon is wherever Hillary Clinton is living at the time. The dragon that tried to swallow the woman is Hillary Clinton.

I think that covers them all. If I missed anyone, chances are that's Hillary Clinton as well, as long as it's one of the bad players. If it's a good player it isn't Hillary Clinton.

It would have been so much easier if John had just come out with it and named Hillary Clinton but there was probably a reason why he didn't.

Re: How can you tell if an end-times prophecy is literal or spiritual?

Originally Posted by ForHisglory

Sorry, but though this is a standard position it is full of holes.

Firstly you have God making TWO NHNE's - why? What a weird thought!
Further Rev 21 states:
Rev 21:1* Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.

You however have a first earth (meaning the present one), then a new one (which is therefore the second), and then ANOTHER new one, which would be the third and not following the first.

Now dealing with your points:
Are you a new creation? If so has the old you complete disappeared? Why claim something for the earth which isn't even true for yourself?
Perhaps you are basing of this verse I quoted - yet we need to ask ourselves what is it meaning, that it has passed away. Is it speaking of a physical reality or a spiritual one? Now when you say, I have spiritually changed, which is why I am new, the same is true for the old earth - the dominion of Man is replaced by the dominion of Jesus.

In Isaiah it is a new Jerusalem, for it is in a new earth, so obviously it is not the old. The fact it hasn't been prefixed with the word new isn't necessary.
In Rev when the NJ comes down, where does it come down to? It will leave heaven to a place on earth - any idea where that place will be? You see Revelation doesn't state anything contrary to Isaiah.

Did you not now that Rev 21 & 22 speaks of sinners? They are OUTSIDE Jerusalem, but they are still in existence.
Note Rev 21:12 has angels at the gate - why? The role seems to be the same as the angel at the Garden of Eden.
21:24 has nations, and kings. 25 has gates which are open - so you can come in and go out - there is a whole world beyond the NJ. 21:27 states that the impure things will not enter it, which again speaks of there being impure things.
22:2 speaks of the leaves for healing the aforementioned nations.
22:14 speaks of those who have the right to enter, and about others who are outside who do not.

Actually there is a temple in the NJ. this is one that gets a lot of people. What is the temple? It is the throne room of God. At present this is in heaven, but when Jesus descends to rule on earth, His throne room (from whence flows the river) will be in the NJ.
So a man-made temple will not exist, but the TRUE temple will. Revelation tells us about this.

There will also be the sea. This has been true from the beginning of the creation of the world. Read Genesis 1 to get this.
So again we need to ask ourselves what does sea mean in the Bible and especially in Revelation.
In Rev 20 it is the place of the dead, it is also in Rev 13 the place from which the beast comes. Neither of these seas are physical places. The sea is a symbol of a change, just like the mention of no temple, for there will be no intermediary for us with God, for we will be with Him.

I hope this clarifies for you. There are yet more arguments which show that the NHNE comes at the time of Jesus, but I'll leave you to consider these. It is one reason Amils reject Premil, because most have the NHNE coming AFTER the Millennium, yet the truth is it comes with Jesus. He sets the world free of its curse.

]

Wow.
Scripture says "there was no more sea." You say, There will also be the sea... The sea is a symbol of a change."

Scripture says, "And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it." You say," What is the temple? It is the throne 'room' of God."

2Peter 3:6,7,13 tells us that there is "the world that then was", "the heavens and earth which are now", and finally, "new heavens and new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness."

The description of the new heaven, the new earth, the sea, and the holy city coming down from God out of heaven are all literal. The city will be built and prepared by God in heaven before it descends to the earth.

The great sea (Mediterranean) and the east sea (Dead Sea) are found in the detailed description of the portions of the land given to each of the 12 tribes during the 1000 year kingdom. Ezek 47. There will be building and planting.There will be a sanctuary and a holy place. There is no mention of a city that descends out of heaven. Neither is there mention of 12 gates of pearl or streets of gold in Jerusalem of Isaiah 65.

1. The new Jerusalem of Rev 21,22 has a tree of life and there shall be no longer any curse there. This is Gen 3 in reverse. Adam sinned and no longer was allowed access to the tree of life. He had to die. Those on the new earth have access to the tree of life and therefore live forever. This cannot be said of the millennial kingdom. Immediately after the 1000 year kingdom Satan will be loosed. He and various nations will rebel. There will be death.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

2. Rev 21:7- I do not believe that there will be any unclean thing that could enter into the city. Rev 20:15.

Re: How can you tell if an end-times prophecy is literal or spiritual?

Originally Posted by verity

]

Wow.
Scripture says "there was no more sea." You say, There will also be the sea... The sea is a symbol of a change."

Scripture says, "And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it." You say," What is the temple? It is the throne 'room' of God."

2Peter 3:6,7,13 tells us that there is "the world that then was", "the heavens and earth which are now", and finally, "new heavens and new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness."

Indeed I do say this. My point being that sometimes we take the Word simplistically rather than simply.
The difference is to understand what is meant in the way it is stated.

The description of the new heaven, the new earth, the sea, and the holy city coming down from God out of heaven are all literal. The city will be built and prepared by God in heaven before it descends to the earth.

Indeed, no disagreement whatsoever.

The great sea (Mediterranean) and the east sea (Dead Sea) are found in the detailed description of the portions of the land given to each of the 12 tribes during the 1000 year kingdom. Ezek 47. There will be building and planting.There will be a sanctuary and a holy place. There is no mention of a city that descends out of heaven. Neither is there mention of 12 gates of pearl or streets of gold in Jerusalem of Isaiah 65.

And? Just because the description of Jerusalem is not given in Isaiah, do you think there will not be gates?
The focus in Isaiah and Ezekiel is different to that in Rev, but neither does it contradict in any way.
Further in order to understand Revelation you need to understand John's OT references.

For example John states:
Rev 21:3* And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.*
Rev 21:4* He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away."

And where do we find this SAME statement?
Isa 65:18* But be glad and rejoice forever in that which I create; for behold, I create Jerusalem to be a joy, and her people to be a gladness.*
Isa 65:19* I will rejoice in Jerusalem and be glad in my people; no more shall be heard in it the sound of weeping and the cry of distress.*

1. The new Jerusalem of Rev 21,22 has a tree of life and there shall be no longer any curse there. This is Gen 3 in reverse. Adam sinned and no longer was allowed access to the tree of life. He had to die. Those on the new earth have access to the tree of life and therefore live forever. This cannot be said of the millennial kingdom. Immediately after the 1000 year kingdom Satan will be loosed. He and various nations will rebel. There will be death.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Have you considered WHY God creates THREE trees of Life?
The first is in the Garden of Eden, The second is in Ezekiel 47 and then you have a THIRD in ANOTHER NHNE.
Yet where are we told the tree of life presently is?
It is in heaven:
Rev 2:7* He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’

2Co_12:3* And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows—

So we KNOW that presently this is where the tree of life is.
Further we know it will come down out of heaven with the NJ.
Yet you have it come 1,000 years earlier, and then get destroyed and replaced... This is confused thinking on your part.

It IS said of the Millennial Kingdom. Where IS the Tree of Life? It is in the NJ. Can anyone enter the NJ? No, as I quoted for you before:
Rev 22:14* Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.

Have you also understood the purpose of the tree of life and its leaves? The focus is on the Millennium.

2. Rev 21:7- I do not believe that there will be any unclean thing that could enter into the city. Rev 20:15.