New York rabbi links Jewish Voice for Peace to Osama bin Laden and Assad

A leading New York rabbi says that Jewish Voice for Peace has “hearts of stone, Jewishly cold, lifeless and emptied of Jewish feeling.” JVP’s statements on terrorism “would make Osama bin Laden blush,” he says, and the group would seem to approve Bashar al-Assad.

Rabbi Ammiel Hirsch’s over-excited April 7 sermon at the Stephen Wise Free Synagogue is a sign of how upset the established Jewish community is by the rise of anti-Zionism and the boycott movement, BDS, inside Jewish life. Hirsch sought to excommunicate JVP for its support of boycott.

“They no longer feel the pulse of our people,” he said. He slurred Arabs in his sermon, deriding JVP for making Palestinian activist Linda Sarsour “their high priestess,” and saying the group does not appreciate that young Israeli soldiers are “holding back the hordes” from coming into Israel from Syria and annihilating Jews.

Hirsch began the sermon by describing a recent synagogue delegation to Israel of 100 people, with adoration for the Jewish state:

“What an amazing country. Words cannot adequately convey Israel. You simply have to go for yourself. I wish there was a way that I could persuade you to come with us, for those of you who have not been, and participate in this life altering, transformative journey because describing it falls short. How do you describe a dream? How do you express a miracle? How do you put love into words?

“Is there one among us who ever composed a love letter and felt that we had captured our deepest sentiments?

The trip had greater impact than any US conversation about Israel:

Now I’m a partisan Jewish hack. It’s my job to awaken your Jewish soul… What we can accomplish in eight days [in Israel], we cannot accomplish in eight years in New York… What I am doing now, trying to express in words inexpressible emotions, is only an echo. It’s not the music itself.

It’s why I could never support those in our community who make common cause with our enemies. My heart is not with them. My heart is with our people. Criticism is one thing. But I could never sympathize with an organization like the boycott-promoting Jewish Voice for Peace, an ironic misnomer of a name if there ever was one, that at its annual convention this week… hosted, feted and cheered a convicted Palestinian terrorist with Israeli blood on her hands, in terms that would make Osama bin Laden blush.

What happened to their Jewish neshama? [soul] Where did it go? It seems to have all dribbled away as they were passing it on– the flame of Judaism flickering in the night, its last embers dying by the campsite of anti Zionist apologists. They no longer feel the pulse of our people. They can celebrate murderers because they convene in Chicago– the good parts of it.

(At the end of this post you can read JVP’s explanation of its invitation to Odeh, a human rights activist who was cheered at the conference.)

The rabbi said JVP has hearts of Jewish stone and suggested it accepts Bashar al-Assad’s “vision of life.”

What Rasmea Odeh did in participating in that attack that killed Israelis is too remote for so-called Jewish Voices for Peace. Terror, murder, even occupation– these are only words, stripped of real moral consequence. A type of moral preening, the shallow self righteousness of those who are somewhere else when the bomb explodes. A kind of faux humanitarianism that tut-tuts to the sight of dozens of children gassed to death right on the other side of Israel’s border and goes right back to accusing Israel of war crimes.

Willful denial of the basic fact that were it not for those 20-year-old tank commanders that we met on the Golan Heights, that very savagery would be visited on us as well. The only thing holding back the hordes is the commitment of those young people to hold back the hordes. If they do this to one another– can you imagine what they would do to Jews if they only had a chance!

I always try to keep an open mind. Self-criticism is even more important to me than criticism of others. I welcome the exquisite diversity in the Jewish community that produces an intellectual and political pluralism unmatched by any other people. Still, my heart is a heart of Jewish flesh, a heart moved by the miracle of collective Jewish life. I cannot relate to those whose hearts are hearts of stone, Jewishly cold, lifeless and emptied of Jewish feelings. Linda Sarsour is their high priestess, the guardian of liberal purity.

Who can accept Assad’s vision of life? Who can support the vision of society peddled by Iran, Hezbollah, Hamas, or even the Palestinian Authority as currently constituted? We met one of the chief spokesmen for the Palestinian Authority in Jericho who like the Jewish Voice for Peace berated us with the same old tired tropes about occupation.

I wish there was peace, I still support a two state solution.

Hirsch had this to say about Palestinians, and how indifferent they are to their own people:

In Jericho we were joined by a Palestinian journalist who works with the New York Times. He’s no Zionist. He wants to live in a Palestinian state coexisting with a Jewish state. After our meeting he said to us that 24 years later the Palestinian Authority has an interest in the status quo, in not resolving the political impasse. The Palestinian Authority is corrupt, he said… building palatial homes within eyesight of refugee camps, paid for by foreign money. He told us that none of these leader ever set foot in refugee camps.

What kind of people, what kind of leadership, would tolerate five generations of refugees and blame it all on the Jews?! Would the Jews tolerate leadership like that, that condones generation after generation of Jews, living in squalor, forgotten by their own leadership that presumes to act and speak on their behalf? Would Americans tolerate this? Would the French? The British?

Hirsch told of his group’s trip to Yad Vashem in Jerusalem and reflected on the question the Holocaust memorial raises: why the allies did not bomb Auschwitz in 1944 (a theme that Laurence Zuckerman dealt with in the Nation).

One of the central lessons of Jewish existence is that powerlessness leads to catastrophe. A people can never put itself at the mercy of the marauding beast. It can never depend on outside protectors, they won’t come. They won’t come to save you. Powerlessness leads to more abuse, not less. It leads to the strong savaging the weak, especially in the Middle East.

…It’s one reason that I’m a Zionist. Zionism is about empowerment– to rewrite the Jewish story in the chapters of history, not as a victim, but as an agent of progress and social repair. It is far better to have power and to struggle with its proper use than to be powerless and at the mercy of the dark lords.

Remember this at your Passover seder next week. The story is of God taking us out of Egypt with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. A mighty hand that wielded power against tyranny. Power is needed to free the persecuted from the oppressor. The oppressor never voluntarily relinquishes control over you.

(I believe that lesson of a mighty arm needed to resist oppression would apply to Palestinians under occupation.)

Hirsch told about visiting the Golan Heights and seeing Syrians treated by Israel:

Hundreds of wounded Syrian civilians who were taught from childhood to hate Jews have been restored to health by Israeli doctors. This is what self empowerment and self-determination can accomplish.

That led him to speak of Jewish greatness:

The Jewish people acting as a collectivity can live out our destiny to be a force for good, compassion, pity, mercy, and dignity.

To be conscious of ourselves we must be conscious not only of our flaws but of our greatness.

This is my life’s mission, to convey to you in any way that I possibly can, that our people is one of the great wonders of the world, and its future is worth preserving, and that future is in your hands.

Here is Jewish Voice for Peace’s explanation of why it invited Odeh to speak at its national conference a month ago. The statement addresses the charges against her.

We are eager to hear from Odeh, a feminist leader in the Palestinian and Arab-American community in Chicago, precisely because she has survived decades of Israeli and US government persecution and oppression, and also because she lives and breathes the essential work of community organizing–having spent her life as both a lawyer and organizer for the empowerment of Arab women.

The accusations against Odeh stem from a context of long-standing anti-Palestinian and anti-Muslim persecution by both the Israeli state and the United States, policies which are escalating under the Trump administration. In the 50 years of Israeli occupation, an estimated 750,000 Palestinians have been detained by Israeli security forces–constituting approximately 20% of the total Palestinian population. And the rate of conviction for Palestinians in Israel’s military courts is a staggering 99.74%, according to the military’s own statistics.

When an occupying army is both judge and jury for the occupied, where does one go for justice? As a recent report from Israeli human rights organization B’tselem details: “The military judges and prosecutors are always Israeli. They are soldiers in uniform enforcing martial law on the civilian Palestinian population living under military rule. The people who take part in administering the occupation are on one side, while the regime’s subjects are on the other. Military courts are not an impartial, neutral arbitrator. They are firmly entrenched on one side of this unequal balance.”

Odeh’s arrest, detention, “confession”, conviction, and her subsequent persecution within the U.S. are inseparable from this broader context. In 1969, she was arrested by Israel along with her father, two sisters and 500 others and convicted of participating in bombings by the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) that killed two civilians. She later testified to a United Nations human rights committee in 1979 that she was coerced into signing a false confession after torture and sexual abuse by her Israeli interrogators and 45 days of detention. She has denied any and all involvement in the bombing.

Rasmea moved to the U.S. in 1994, and obtained citizenship in 2004. She has worked with the Arab American Action Network since 2004, organizing primarily with Arab-American women on feminist issues. In 2014, she was arrested over a now 20-year-old immigration form where she failed to disclose her record of imprisonment in Israel. During her trial, the judge allowed evidence of her conviction in Israeli military courts to be used against her, while barring evidence of her torture, false confession and post-traumatic stress disorder. An appeals court has ordered a re-trial in order to allow that evidence, which will take place in May 2017.

At JVP we mourn the loss of all life, and condemn all forms of violence against civilians. We also mourn the lives and freedom lost to a brutally unjust military court that deploys sexual violence, torture, imprisonment, and abuse. We can decry all acts of violence against civilians and also understand that–from Nelson Mandela to Assata Shakur–the label of terrorist is far from neutral.

The story of Rasmea Odeh’s label as “terrorist” is a story of Israeli apartheid: a story of displacement and refugees, of occupation and unjust targeting by the security state, of political imprisonment, sexual violence, and torture. But Rasmea’s life is a story of Palestinian resilience: a story of persistence, of nonviolent resistance, of believing in community, of empowering women, and building grassroots leadership. We can’t wait to hear from her.

Correction. This post originally translated neshama as solace. It should have been soul. Thanks to a friend.

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141 Responses

… “What an amazing country. Words cannot adequately convey Israel. … How do you describe a dream? How do you express a miracle? How do you put love into words? …

Mr. Hirsch is deluded or insane.

… powerlessness leads to catastrophe. A people can never put itself at the mercy of the marauding beast. It can never depend on outside protectors, they won’t come. They won’t come to save you. Powerlessness leads to more abuse, not less. It leads to the strong savaging the weak, especially in the Middle East. …

It’s nice to see that Mr. Hirsch:
– understand the plight of the Palestinians at the savaging hands of Zionism and its oppressive, colonialist, (war) criminal and religion-supremacist “Jewish State” construct; and
– accepts that they must fight the marauding beast to avoid further abuse.

Hirsch is protected by full extent of law in USA, a 98% Goy country. What ethnic or religious abuse did he incur here? Would he like to live in Palestine as a Palestinian? Or even in Israel Green Lined? Oh yeah, a giant hypocrite.

|| Mayhem: @eljay, noted you can’t even bring yourself to refer to Rabbi Hirsch by his title. ||

He’s a man, his title is Mister (Mr.). Are you suggesting he’s not a man?

As far as omitting titles goes, you – surprise! (not) – are quite the hypocrite: Your archive indicates that you have very little respect for your very own King, Mr. Netanyahu, whose title – Prime Minister (or King) – you have a habit of omitting.

OT…Eljay, I used your “rapist” analogy in a family discussion and the point was made, painfully.

The context was one one where “hope” was expressed based on Palestinian kids visiting some German extermination camp and developing [previously “conspicuously”/characteristically absent] empathy for Jewish/Zionist sensitivities.

I asked if it was equally hopeful/contingent for the rape victim to develop and show empathy for the rapist. Kinda left it there. Point made, pending some introspection. TBD.

I agree it’s relevant, also apt and powerful. When I get the sense that decades of insistent, ambient disinformation about Palestinian motivation/character is regurgitated by generally well-meaning people, it comes in handy to quickly refocus/reset the discussion to what’s really going on there. Such was the case here.

Another aspect of this conversation was a side discussion about political views in general and how people get [self-] lodged into unchanging beliefs. So there were two openings to use your analogy in the discussion.

Too, it was painful because the look I got was the same as the look when I made the observation (pre-election) that the US political system had manipulated formerly/notionally anti-war people into voting FOR perpetual war in
2016. That’s maybe arguable, but it requires/insists a similar overturning of previously strongly held beliefs is in order.

That’s a lot to ask of people, but imho the level of blatant, across-the-board inconsistency is opening the door for just such a personal and public rethink. The rape analogy sparks a rethink on this issue, which may cause broader questioning.

“In Jericho we were joined by a Palestinian journalist who works with the New York Times “.

Don,t suppose you would have that Palestinian journalists name , Rabbi.If he is your friend and compatriot in the battle against antisemites and Israel hater,s , I am sure he would not oppose you naming him.

To sum up what Rabbi Hirsch said: JVP is full of shit.
That is the gut reaction of pretty much all American Jews to anyone speaking on behalf of JVP.
Also, the vast majority of American Jews never heard of JVP and aren’t interested in anything they have to say.

I admit that is a weakness to my position. If steve is a typical individual in that grouping then all things are possible. Next time I am in Chicago I will look for hordes doing just that. I’m just amazed he doesn’t have back problems given the location of his head. Very flexible but not intellectually.

Steve Grover: “To sum up what Rabbi Hirsch said: JVP is full of shit.”

To sum up what Rabbi Hirsch is saying: He’s full of shit.

Steve Grover: “That is the gut reaction of pretty much all American Jews to anyone speaking on behalf of JVP. Also, the vast majority of American Jews never heard of JVP and aren’t interested in anything they have to say.”

Is there anything we can do to bring you back to reality? Slowly? Without traumatizing you?

Then Secretary of State for India and the British cabinet’s only Jewish member, Lord Edwin Montagu’s response to Prime Minister Lloyd George following issuance of the illegal 1917 Balfour Declaration: “All my life I have been trying to get out of the ghetto. You want to force me back there.”

Henry Morgenthau Sr., renowned Jewish American and former U.S. Ambassador to Turkey, 1919: “Zionism is the most stupendous fallacy in Jewish history….The very fervour of my feeling for the oppressed of every race and every land, especially for the Jews, those of my own blood and faith, to whom I am bound by every tender tie, impels me to fight with all the greater force against this scheme, which my intelligence tells me can only lead them deeper into the mire of the past, while it professes to be leading them to the heights. Zionism is… a retrogression into the blackest error, and not progress toward the light.”

Asked to sign a petition supporting settlement of Jews in Palestine, Sigmund Freud declined: “I cannot…I do not think that Palestine could ever become a Jewish state….It would have seemed more sensible to me to establish a Jewish homeland on a less historically-burdened land….I can raise no sympathy at all for the misdirected piety which transforms a piece of a Herodian wall into a national relic, thereby offending the feelings of the natives.” (Letter to Dr. Chaim Koffler Keren HaYassod, Vienna: 2/26/30)

Albert Einstein, 1939: “There could be no greater calamity than a permanent discord between us and the Arab people…. Let us recall that in former times no people lived in greater friendship with us than the ancestors of these Arabs.”

Lessing J. Rosenwald, president of the American Council for Judaism, 1944: “The concept of a racial state – the Hitlerian concept- is repugnant to the civilized world, as witness the fearful global war in which we are involved. . . , I urge that we do nothing to set us back on the road to the past. To project at this time the creation of a Jewish state or commonwealth is to launch a singular innovation in world affairs which might well have incalculable consequences.”

Here is JVP Rabbi Brant Rosen’s contact information on a public website where he is employed. Feel free to ask him about the love he gets from his local Jewish community.https://www.afsc.org/office/chicago-il

I do not think one can say that Israelis don’t think, although “ignorance is Strength” or unanimity equals patriotism seems to be far more prominent in israeli Jewish society compared to diaspora Jewish society.
There is a large portion of society that is quite open to thought. I understand that Palestinian supporters think their oppression is only possible if their oppressors are thoughtless in general.

Any “local” or national “Jewish community” can paint itself yellow, climb a tree or jump in the lake as they don’t count. Repeat: that is some 2-3% of the population and there is no percentage in wasting anyone’s efforts on it. Besides, the majority seem to be really as you describe them: cavemen.

WASHINGTON – Three Republican members of Congress spoke at the launch of a new Congressional caucus supporting Israel on Thursday in Washington. The new group, named the Congressional Israel Victory Caucus, aims to shift United States policy toward the goal of “defeating” the Palestinians without either creating a Palestinian state or giving Palestinians civil rights.

The new caucus – an initiative of the Middle East Forum, a right-wing think tank based in Philadelphia – consists exclusively of members of the Republican Party, at least as of now. The caucus is opposed to diplomatic negotiations between Israel and the Palestinian Authority, putting it far to the right of the administration of U.S. President Donald Trump, which is currently aiming at restarting the peace process ahead of Trump’s expected visit to Israel in May.

The two co-chairmen of the new caucus, Republican representatives Bill Johnson from Ohio and Ron Desantis from Florida, spoke at the event launching the caucus, which was in the Rayburn House Office Building on Capitol Hill.

The congressmen said that Palestinians liked living under Israeli military control in the West Bank. Another speaker, the Middle East Forum’s president Daniel Pipes, said that Palestinians will be better off if they accept Israel’s victory and give up on statehood, independence or equal rights. “Palestinian defeat is what leads to Palestinian normality,” Pipes said.

Desantis said he assumes Trump will eventually move the U.S.Embassy in Israel from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, perhaps even during his upcoming visit to Israel next month. Trump promised to move the embassy during the election campaign, but has stopped referring to the issue since he entered the White House. The last administration official to speak on the embassy move was Vice President Mike Pence, who said last month that Trump was “seriously considering” it. …

In response to the launch of the caucus, the left-wing group J Street said “this caucus is trying to mainstream a hateful ideology that can only lead to endless conflict – which would spell disaster for Israelis and Palestinians alike. Right now, with so much uncertainty surrounding US policy in the region, leaders in Washington and in the American Jewish community need to challenge and sideline the dangerous ideas of this extreme fringe.””

These guys and gals must drug their constituents. How is it that so many americans can’t see that the folks they voted for to put their (american) interests first has taken an oath of allegience to a rogue state, that on a daily basis flouts its disdain for the u.n. and the u.s. Wake up!

“What kind of people, what kind of leadership, would tolerate five generations of refugees and blame it all on the Jews?! Would the Jews tolerate leadership like that, that condones generation after generation of Jews, living in squalor, forgotten by their own leadership that presumes to act and speak on their behalf? Would Americans tolerate this? Would the French? The British? -”

Reminded me of Rumkowski and his “give the Nazis your children ” speech. ..

i have most fervently worshiped with the reverend gary davis, they gave that worthless man a guitar and he just shamaned a basic truth…after all the noise the basic truth, its a shamanic thing, yes father gary, i have been with your reverend cheeks all day, black american christians shaman priests, masters.

Jewish voice for peace can call itself whatever it wants, but it ought a call itself Jewish voice for palestine. The woman convicted of the terror killing by Israeli military court, I will grant you the presumed innocent until proven guilty, ( and since the court is disallowed therefore presumed innocent,) but merely on the grounds of communication the invitation to that woman represented a slap in the face to anyone not devoted to jvp’s line of thought. I listened to one of the speeches posted in comments by Annie robbins and it turned my stomach. They aren’t even trying to be anything but just as antizionist as mw. Which is fine, as they say “whose side are you on?” Clearly not on my side.

You mean they actually validated a narrative of Jewish victimhood? – Mooser
One of these people became Moshe Dayan. So no victims Mooser. It’s you who is whining, Israel is thriving and will continue to do so. And don’t forget, keep boycotting the hummus.

Israel isn’t thriving, catalan. It’s a long way from hatikva. World capital of Jewish domestic violence. There is a great emptiness at the heart of Israel. If the price of a Jewish state is denying your kids an education how tasty does the hummus feel?

There is a great emptiness at the heart of Israel. – Mag
I am the last person to think that Israel is perfect. After all, I did not go there. However, the mondo comment section has thoroughly convinced me in its necessity. As a Jewish person, all I have done is work hard and try to belong, first in Bulgaria and then here. It just doesn’t work. No matter what, we are guilty – we are either Bolsheviks or capitalists, we talk too much about the Holocaust which either didn’t happen or happened but we brought it on ourselves. I need to be grateful that the Bulgarian nazis sent the Jews to labor camps and fired them instead of outright killing them (and kill they did many).
Mind you, I am not talking about Israel, it is the intensity of aversion towards Jews in other countries that doesn’t cease to amaze me. Do my coworkers and neighbors outwardly smile but actually resent me? It doesn’t feel that way but the comments here indicate deep seated racism towards Jews. Therefore, that justifies Israel from my point of view.

I think that rabin, ehud barak and ehud Olmert were on the right track. But rabin was murdered and both barak and olmert were offering more than the israeli public was ready to offer and thus there was not the stability that true peace talks would have required, instead there were elections that replaced barak and olmert with sharon and Netanyahu putting an end to negotiations.

“I think that rabin, ehud barak and ehud Olmert were on the right track. But rabin was murdered and both barak and olmert were offering more than the israeli public was ready to offer and thus there was not the stability that true peace talks would have required, instead there were elections that replaced barak and olmert with sharon and Netanyahu putting an end to negotiations”

Lemme see now. They offered what exactly? To swap non-Israeli territories for non-Israeli territories so Israel could keep non-Israeli territories? WOW that’s a great deal! What a bargiain for the Palestinians!. They offered the Palestinians another chance to forgo some more of their legal rights.

Negotiations mean only one thing. Less for the Palestinians, more for Israel who has no legal, moral or ethical right to anything beyond its proclaimed and recognized borders. No legal, moral or ethical right to demand to be recognized. No moral legal or ethical right to take other folks territories for its own protection. No legal ethical or moral right to demand a Palestinian state be dis-armed.

“Talkback April 29, 2017, 7:48 am
It is a fact. Israel has done nothing towards peace. Take a chill pill. Your accusations against me are ridiculous-.”

“@ Talkback April 29, 2017, 7:48 am
Precisely.Israel has offered nothing towards peace and it doesn’t give a sh*t whether we like it or not.
If you can’t acknowledge the fact that Israel hasn’t offered anything towards peace, it sure is your problem, because it hasn’t offered anything towards peace. It’s a simple ugly fact.”

1.) I’m so chilled that I don’t need to respond to same comment twice. Lol.
2.) I didn’t challenge your claim that Israel has done nothing towards peace at all. So it’s not me who should take a chill pill.
3.) Just accept the fact that Israel has done nothing towards peace and doesn’t give a sh** whether you like it or not. … And take a chill pill, if you can’t.

Talknic: “Interesting. You’re the one saying “just accept”. I haven’t. Your argument with me is a complete nonsense.”

Complete nonsense?! You taught ecci and me that it is our problem, if we can’t accept the fact that Israel exists.

So I’m adapting and saying that we should then also accept the fact that Israel hasn’t done nothing towards peace and doesn’t give a sh**, too, whether we like it or not. Cause if we can’t accept it than it’s just our personal problem. And Mondoweiss is not a plattform for our personal problems, is it?

So allow me to quote you: “Go whine to the States who recognized Israel, and the UN for admitting Israel and the US for protecting Israel and to states for blindly accepting a de facto situation.

” You taught ecci and me that it is our problem, if we can’t accept the fact that Israel exists”

Your problem is I didn’t use the word “accept”. I’ve not asked anyone to ‘accept’ any illegality on behalf of the Jewish Agency, Zionist Federation or the State of Israel. I’ve simply pointed out what those illegalities are. Any illegality is un-acceptable.

“So I’m adapting and saying that we should then also accept the fact that Israel hasn’t done nothing towards peace and doesn’t give a sh**, too, whether we like it or not. Cause if we can’t accept it than it’s just our personal problem. And Mondoweiss is not a plattform for our personal problems, is it?”

You’re ‘adapting’ your own word, ‘accept’ I didn’t use the word ‘accept’, because I didn’t mean or ask anyone to ‘accept’ a clearly un-acceptable situation. You’re trying to accuse me of something I’ve never said or inferred

“So allow me to quote you: “Go whine to the States who recognized Israel, and the UN for admitting Israel and the US for protecting Israel and to states for blindly accepting a de facto situation.”

You’re quoting a different statement on a different point in question, being; Israel WAS declared, WAS recognized, WAS admitted as a UN Member because the recognizing states ‘accepted’ Zionist lies promising to adhere to the rule of law. They’ve also ‘accepted’ Israel’s de facto situation in territories “outside the State of Israel”. That’s the reality. legal or not. Whether we, you, anyone likes it or not.

If one can’t acknowledge the injustices that HAVE happened and the root causes of those injustices, then you really do have a problem

Talknic: “Your problem is I didn’t use the word “accept” … You’re ‘adapting’ your own word, ‘accept’ I didn’t use the word ‘accept’, because I didn’t mean or ask anyone to ‘accept’ a clearly un-acceptable situation. You’re trying to accuse me of something I’ve never said or inferred.”

Yup, It must have been the other Talknic who literally wrote at the bottom of his comment:

Talknic: “You’re quoting a different statement on a different point in question, being; Israel WAS declared, WAS recognized, WAS admitted as a UN Member because the recognizing states ‘accepted’ Zionist lies promising to adhere to the rule of law. They’ve also ‘accepted’ Israel’s de facto situation in territories “outside the State of Israel”. That’s the reality. legal or not. Whether we, you, anyone likes it or not. ”

Yes, yes. The fallacy in your quote is so hollow that it can be used in any situation. So allow me to quote it again regarding your above ‘whinery’:

Go whine to the States who recognized Israel, and the UN for admitting Israel and the US for protecting Israel and to states for blindly accepting a de facto situation.

Talknic: “If one can’t acknowledge the injustices that HAVE happened and the root causes of those injustices, then you really do have a problem.”

And which one of us not only acknowledges the injustices that have happened, but BECAUSE OF THEM DOESN’T accept the “ugly reality of Israel’s existence” and actually sees the latter as the problem and not Israel’s non acceptance?!

Talknic: “Your problem is I didn’t use the word “accept” … You’re ‘adapting’ your own word, ‘accept’ I didn’t use the word ‘accept’, because I didn’t mean or ask anyone to ‘accept’ a clearly un-acceptable situation. You’re trying to accuse me of something I’ve never said or inferred.”

Yup, It must have been the other Talknic who literally wrote at the bottom of his comment:”

2 points. 1) Different thread. 2) Here I purposefully used “acknowledge” because elsewhere you just couldn’t seem to grasp the concept of accepting the fact that whether we agree with it or not, whether it was legal or not, whether we like it or not, Israel was declared and recognized.

It’s simply a fact. It’s what happened. A reality brought about by Zionist lies and their vile colonization scheme. We are now dealing with the State of Israel.. It exists. It’s a UN Member. Even Hamas now have accepted that Israel, like it or not, exists. The UN has been adopting resolutions condemning the State of Israel, because Israel exists. It’s an ugly, unjust but undeniable fact.

I haven’t asked anyone to “just accept” the situation. Accepting/acknowledging what has actually transpired doesn’t in any way change my POV which should be bl**dy obvious to anyone but an idiot is totally anti-Zionist , anti the colonization of Palestine

“And which one of us not only acknowledges the injustices that have happened, but BECAUSE OF THEM DOESN’T accept the “ugly reality of Israel’s existence” and actually sees the latter as the problem and not Israel’s non acceptance?”

I’ve never said you are the problem. I said if you can’t accept, i.e., acknowledge the fact that due to Zionist lies and the gullibility of states, Israel in all its ghastliness now exists, its your problem.

Your accusations are based on a complete mis-understanding of what has been meant

“Or try Googling “Bulgaria Jews WW2”” Mooser
I don’t have to google the topic. I am Bulgarian and have an international relations degree from the country. Both my grandparents whom I got to know ( the others died young) were among the so called saved. My grandfather, a very non athletic person had to spend years building railways. My grandma who is still alive, wore the star and was kicked around while pregnant by the nice policemen. The king and Filov, the prime minister were committed to killing all Jews and did that in the Bulgarian occupied Thrace and Macedonia. There were, like elsewhere, people who stepped up to help the Jews, primarily the church. Nonetheless, what really saved them was the death of the king and the Soviet invasion.
Just think, if Bulgaria was so nice, how come 95 percent of Jews chose to leave after the war and go to Israel. Regardless, this forum is not the place to discuss these issues. Find me somehow off this place, and we can take the topic further. This is too personal for me.

Talknic: ” Two points. 1) Different thread. 2.) Here I purposefully used “acknowledge” because elsewhere you just couldn’t seem to grasp the concept of accepting the fact that whether we agree with it or not, whether it was legal or not, whether we like it or not, Israel was declared and recognized.”

Absolutely ridiculous. You started this discussion by saying that Israel has done nothing to achieve peace which I didn’t contest. Instead I responded that it is your problem, if you don’t accept it, because you wrote in a different thread that it is my problem, if I don’t accept Israel’s existence. Then you denied using the word “accept” and I proved you wrong by quoting you. Now you want to distract from this by making the irrelevant point that this happened in a different thread and that you didn’t use the word “accept” in this thread.

Talknic: “It’s simply …”

More distraction from the point of issue. It’s ridiculous.

Talknic: “I haven’t asked anyone to “just accept” the situation.”

Another ridiculous strawman argument. Nobody claimed that you “asked” anyone to just accept the situation. It’s worse. You wrote that it is my problem, if I didn’t, as if my non acceptance was the problem and not the situation itself.

Talknic: “I’ve never said you are the problem.”

Just another ridiculous strawman argument. Nobody made the claim that you did.

Talknic: “I said if you can’t accept, i.e., acknowledge the fact that due to Zionist lies and the gullibility of states, Israel in all its ghastliness now exists, its your problem.”

Exactly. So I said that if you can’t accept that Israel has done nothing to achieve peace, it’s your problem. But you don’t seem to grasp the concept of a reductio ad absurdum by mirroring your ridiculous positions.

Talknic: “Now please drop it, because it’s ridiculous.”

It is, But if you can’t accept the fact that this is not my fault, it’s your problem.

catalan,
A few weeks ago, we invited a young couple to our seder, new immigrants from Bulgaria. It so happens that their opinion on this topic is much like yours: that the perception of the Bulgarian regime at the time “saving the Jews” is wrong.

I wrote that it is your problem, if you don’t accept it. So what’s the only logical answer to your question based on the fact that I didn’t use a conditional clause?

Talknic: “The ” as if my non acceptance was the problem and not the situation itself” is entirely your mistaken conclusion.”

And where’s the argument that it is mistaken? Why didn’t you write to me: “Israel’s ugly existence is the problem” but prefer to write instead that it is my problem, if I don’t accept it?

Talknic: “This is yours! ” as if my non acceptance was the problem and not the situation itself.”

Exactly! That’s why your claim that you never wrote that I’m a problem is a straw man argument, because I didn’t write “as if I was the problem …”.

Anyway, if you can’t accept that Israel has done nothing to achive peace or that it ignores 48 borders, then its simply your problem. “Go whine to the States who recognized Israel, and the UN for admitting Israel and the US for protecting Israel and to states for blindly accepting a de facto situation.” (Talknic)

And if you can’t accept that I’m confronting you with your fallacies or adpations of them then it is your problem, too. So just drop it.

“One of the central lessons of Jewish existence is that powerlessness leads to catastrophe. A people can never put itself at the mercy of the marauding beast. It can never depend on outside protectors, they won’t come. They won’t come to save you. ”

The idea that a nation state can, or will, protect the people who live in their lands is laughable. The nation state exists to protect itself, nothingmore. Ask the Germans how well their nation protected them. Or the Soviets. Or the French. Or the Spanish. And that’s just the Europeans!

It seems to me, apostate that I am, that the Rabbi in this case is placing his faith in a nation state, rather than the divinity that I’d expect him to have faith in. Has Israel become his golden calf?

Most British people have the idea that ‘we stood alone’ and saved many things in 1940 by means of cohesion, courage, cheerfulness, scientific ingenuity and all that. Mythistory but still history after a fashion. One of the reasons we were never quite comfortable in the EU.
I don’t think you can blame human beings for seeking power and/or for forming sovereign states. What’s wrong is ideological or religious relish in the use of power, forgetting that others have the same insecurities as you and the same right to protect themselves or letting a rational sense of risk become paranoia. Hobbes explains this, I think.
On some interpretations Psalm 20, with its advice not to trust completely in chariots and horses rather than in God, reminds us that even a great king should not boast and threaten on the basis of his military power. I think that R. Hirsch should read it more often, using
his doubtless impeccable Hebrew.
It’s somewhat alarming that an American congregation is being called upon not to put its trust in the laws, moral fortitude and armed force of the United States to protect its citizens but in power defined in terms of race and religion.
Over top rhetoric, as Yonah rightly says. That applies to his remarks about the Palestinian leadership. But that doesn’t mean that there is no truth at all in what his Palestinian informant seems to have told him. Mind you, it’s outrageous that the celebration of Israeli power should so with such refusal of responsibility, one of the things that comes with power unless power is swamped by paranoia. He should call on the Israeli government night and day to state its terms for that vanishing Solution.

The core takeaways from Jewish history may not be so clear. Powerlessness may lead to catastrophe but what would that say about Jewish leadership? Is that the problem? How do pilot fish manage shark volatility? Why do the Druze do it better ?

The evidence would indicate that state violence doesnt really suit Jews either. Too many unintended consequences . And the Land is a fantasy. There is no shangri la. Another big question from history is the struggle between observing the mitzvah and respecting the logic behind the mitzvah.

Magh- my Jewish hero (dead hero) these days is yeshayahu leibowitz. It took someone as cerebral intellectual devoid of sentimentality like him to stand up against all the Zionist rabbis and to assert the danger and folly and evil of the occupation. I don’t think all of his rhetoric was useful, but iconoclasts are not usually moderate in their tone and they seldom fit the preferences the peanut gallery might seek to impose.
Ben Gurion handed off to eshkol but in reality handed off to the generals. The rabbis and the rich successes led Europe’s jews and the intellectuals placed a poor third. Zionism changed the politics, but it automatically led to the empowerment of the generals. The Zionist rabbis did not measure up to the challenge but yeshayahu leibowitz did.
( the haredi are separate, opposed to zionism in principle but anti intellectual and thus anti leftist peace. This is the masses. The truly antizionist I think are less than 20%. Maybe less than 10%.)

Mooser, I find it hard to say anything positive about Jewish political leadership. WW2 was a catastrophe. Israel is a disaster. It is not clear what the problem is. Maybe sidelining dissenting opinions could be a factor.

Masada. Nazism and Japanese militarism show that any people can be taken over by mass insanity which puts everything at risk. 4.9 million Germans died in WW2. The country lost 20% of its territory. Violence is so alluring. And so treacherous.

RABBI HIRSCH- “One of the central lessons of Jewish existence is that powerlessness leads to catastrophe.”

Hence, there is safety in communal power-seeking. I am glad that the Rabbi agrees with me that the underlying purpose of Zionism is Zionist power-seeking. And since the good Rabbi has not made Aliyah to the Israel he professes to love, he is talking about Zionist power-seeking within empire itself.

RABBI HIRSCH- “A people can never put itself at the mercy of the marauding beast.”

Ah, the irrational, evil Goyim! The other. It is necessary to interact with them to achieve your goals, but they are not like us. Best not to get too close. Your first loyalty is to your fellow kinsmen, not to these potentially dangerous beasts.

Thank you for your honesty, Rabbi Hirsch. It is quite clear that anti-Gentile chauvinism is a core component of Zionism.

Well if JVP’s position on Wahhabism or Ba’athism is the same as its position on Zionism, then they don’t take a position, recognizing that it is a sensitive subject.

On the other hand, if JVP’s position on Wahhabism or Ba’athism is similar to their position on anti-Semitism, they will now proceed to defend themselves from these charges by turning around and accusing the rest of us of being Wahhabists or Ba’athists, secretly attacking us in private and then telling their own membership to piss up a rope when we complain.

It’s simple. When you’re a Jew, you’re a Jew all the way, from your first little bris, til they cart you away! When you’re a Jew, if the shit hits the fan, if there’s tsuris around, you’re a family man!
You’re never alone!
You’re never disconnected!
Israel’s your home, and when goyim are expected, you’re well protected!

No freaking wonder I’m an atheist!
How anybody in his right mind could listen to an hour’s sermon from this guy is beyond me.
I also happen to belong to JVP as one of their few Canadian, non-Jewish atheists.
I congratulate JVP for getting on this guy’s nerve! I am, however, sad that JVP members don’t take stronger action against the Israeli Lobby in Washington.
I hope to go to Israel as one of the things on my 80-year-old bucket list. But I’ll be going on a tour led by the journalist Jonathan Cook, the writer who lives in Bethlehem, in which I hope to see a few of the former Palestinian villages taken from them by the crooked manipulation of Zionist Jews.

“Still, my heart is a heart of Jewish flesh, a heart moved by the miracle of collective Jewish life. I cannot relate to those whose hearts are hearts of stone, Jewishly cold, lifeless and emptied of Jewish feelings.”

Well, I have to say, if I would hear someone preaching this way, replacing the word Jewish with the word Finnish.. My heart would get cold and I would run away.

I used to believe such racist Jewish/Zionist nonsense until I found out what it meant during Cast Lead and followed orders to murder unarmed Palestinian men, women (some carrying babies), and kids fleeing a battle zone.

Dismantling the State of Israel and removing the white racist genocidal European invaders along with their lackeys could be the great cause to unite the West, the Russian Federation, the Islamic World and Asian Cultures in a campaign for clear and obvious justice.

Those of us that support justice must overcome the nonsense that passes for popular Jewish and Zionist history and teach an objective verifiable history of:

You know, I might even have visited some friends in a settlement without knowing it myself:

There was this jewish village, built on a hill top and I used to wonder why it was highly fenced with armed guards by the entrance and here and there elsewhere too.. I also remember one time standing alone by the fence on one side of the village, looking down at a Palestinian village located under the hill. The view was so beautifull and the fresh mountain wind in my hair, I remember thinking “I wish I could live in a place like this..”

WTF?? But honestly, I did not know.. We usually have fences to avoid the moose (or other wild animals) to get lost in the middle of traffic.

Hey, I may not be totally wild (I’m more of a suburban ungulate) but I just bought my first small sports car (Scion FR-S). Last Saturday.

Sunday I took it up on a backroad vrrrm, vrrm, and a deer, a big doe, jumped in front of the car. I braked hard, she bounded away. I remembered why there are speed limits, (and heart attacks, which I nearly had one.) and went back to adhering to them. There goes the sports, and all I’ve got left is the small. The thing is tiny. I’ve already lost it in a parking lot, every other car towers over it. I have a hard time getting out of it, after I’ve fallen into it.

mooser: Hey, I may not be totally wild (I’m more of a suburban ungulate) but I just bought my first small sports car (Scion FR-S). Last Saturday.

Sunday I took it up on a backroad vrrrm, vrrm, and a deer, a big doe, jumped in front of the car. I braked hard, she bounded away. I remembered why there are speed limits, (and heart attacks, which I nearly had one.) and went back to adhering to them. There goes the sports, and all I’ve got left is the small. The thing is tiny.

Nice choice, especially in the rain.
I always thought you were a Volvo guy. I wonder how I got that idea.

Again sorry, now for my lack of knowledge.. I checked (??) it and realized that elg is elg in norwegian too.. So it is elk in U.K. ?? I really apologise my lack of “education”.. Should have known that, but did not.. (If you saw me, you’d see how ashamed I am.. ) So elk for brittish people from now on.. And you see, every day is a new day and you can always learn something new :) !!

You know it. Sit n’ spin! The funny part is, I am sure, dead sure we would not have bought this car if Hillary had won.
The “oh-fuck-it-let’s-have-some-fun-before-we-die” feeling wouldn’t have been there.

:)! My shame comes mostly from the fact, that I have had both Brittish and Irish friends visiting me and even though I took them to the forrest, I still did not know they call their moose an elk.. :)

And for some reason, I always think the Austarlian english is closer to the American, maybe because of the way it is pronounced.. ? (We just had all the seasons of A Place to Call Home shown here in the tv, and I was totally addicted to it specially for the first two seasons :) What a wonderfull way to escape from the 2010’s..)

I find the angst about Assad totally disingenuous. Those in the Jewish establishment, like this rabbi, know very well that any American president would act even more brutally than Assad has if the US faced violent siege by well armed militias of head chopping Al Qaeda and ISIS affiliated groups.

The animus against Assad is not about concern for humanity, but about concern that Assad has put a wrench in the long term plan to destabilize Syria for Israel.

Those in the Jewish establishment, like this rabbi, know very well that any American president would act even more brutally than Assad has if the US faced violent siege by well armed militias of head chopping Al Qaeda and ISIS affiliated groups.”

This is about one rabbi in NYC. There are literally hundreds of rabbis in New York, maybe more. Are they running scared by BDS? Well, last week the US Senate passed a resolution condemning the UN for its one-sided criticism of Israel. The vote was 100-0. It couldn’t be 101-0, since there are only 100 Senators. If there was a vote in the US Senate on whether 2 +2= 4, it would probably pass by only a majority of 97-3. Every Senator voted to condemn the UN re Israel, including the left-liberals like Sanders and Warren. And it’s not election time for eighteen months.

By the way, I do not even understand why the UN Security Council even exists?? Each time they want to suggest something about Syria, Russia uses it’s veto and nothing happens, each time they suggest something about Israel, U.S. uses it’s veto and nothing happens. So the whole Council seems to have become just a useless stage for such eternal theatre which never leads to anywhere in action..

“Each time they want to suggest something about Syria, Russia uses it’s veto and nothing happens, each time they suggest something about Israel, U.S. uses it’s veto and nothing happens. So the whole Council seems to have become just a useless stage for such eternal theatre which never leads to anywhere in action.”

Apples and oranges, my dear. There’s been plenty of “action”~ just ask the victims. The US has officially supported and been complicit with Israel with their vetoes, munitions, taxpayer dollars and vociferous support for all of these long and dreadful years. 100%, even with the horrifically rare and recent ‘abstention’. The world has documented evidence of Israel’s long criminal history and ongoing crimes. To compare Russia’s veto of UNSC action against Syria for the gas attack attributed by the West and Israel to the Syrian gov’t is really not fair or just. Where’s the proof that Assad is to blame? The US and its allies provided the world with ISIS. Never forget that the US and its allies are responsible for much of the death and destruction of MENA.

If, and only if, Fatou Bensouda will get off her arse and take the myriad war criminals to court and provide some justice for the stricken, then we can see a change. Maybe.

I have seen some documents of f.ex. the torture and horribilities from Assad’s jails. That man is a civilized, well-behaving monster hurting and killing his own people “without blinking his eyes”.. And he won’t be the first doctor that kind..

Ofcourse you can’t compare Israel and Syria, ’cause they are complitely different matters. But it won’t make Assad a good guy, that Israel has been such a catastrophe for all too long.

American politicians’ fawning obsession with the “Jewish State” is mind-boggling, as is their hypocrisy: If non-Jews were doing to the “Jewish State” what the “Jewish State” has been doing to non-Jews for almost 70 years, American politicians would be beside themselves in outrage.

As an outsider to the U.S. politics, I would be interested in hearing why it is so?? Why is the support for Israel so strong?? – Kaisa
As a Jew who moved from Europe, it is totally different here. The nasty racism that is so widespread in Europe towards Jews, Gypsies, Muslims, Blacks and others is so rare here. In Bulgaria, virulent antisemitism is still the norm, with constant calls for the elimination of Jews. Any comment on news, even if the news is about Britney Spears, ends up with hatred towards Jews there. Same in most of Europe. Here in the States, it is different. Americans have learned to live together with other people and we have other types of neurosis, like greed, addiction, and so on, however, racism is just not prevalent. So they look at Israel objectively, and compare it favorably with Iran (insane), Saudi Arabia (ultra conservative), Egypt (poverty, female circumcision) and the rest of its neighbors.
I still have my European citizenship but I never visit and in all honesty may never again go there. But why worry? If you keep boycotting that hummus, surely the settlers will leave?

|| catalan: … So they look at Israel objectively, and compare it favorably with Iran (insane), Saudi Arabia (ultra conservative), Egypt (poverty, female circumcision) and the rest of its neighbors. … ||

Yup, that’s what they gotta do because it compares extremely poorly to its “moral beacon”, “light unto the nations” and “Western-style democracy” nations it claims are its peers.

|| catalan: … If you keep boycotting that hummus, surely the settlers will leave? ||

Not a chance: Zionists expect the “Jewish State” to last a Thousand Years, no matter how much hummus is boycotted.

But just in case they’re wrong, your Zionist brethren continue to work hard to conflate all Jews with Israel and Israel with all Jews so that if/when the blowback hits they can point their fingers at non-Zionist “cannon-fodder” Jews, shout “That one over there – he’s a Jew! Get him!!” and save their own asses.

Well, I would not compare East Europe with the whole Europe.. East European attitudes are in everyway more strict and conservative, and there is open discrimination towards women, gaypeople and whoever there.. But I don’t understand how that would be an explanation for U.S. supporting blindly Israel and specially IDF. There are horrible things happening in Palestine with the money of U.S. people and it has nothing to do with Egypt, Iran or any other country in the world.

I just baked a cake. You’d be all welcome to taste, if you were somewhere near.

Phil etc have you listened to Ralph Nader’s Gandhi award acceptance speech? He nails the Israeli Palestinian issue. Has some interesting suggestions. The bulk of the acceptance speech was about expansion of empire, hunger, lack of empathy and response. At the end he nails the I/P issue.

Of course Omar Barghouti speech is a must listen to too. Thanks for alerting us to the award speech

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