Interesting thing about Japan, is the complete acceptance of people wearing surgical masks in public (it's considered to be polite if you are ill). Makes it a lot harder to identify people from video surveillance.

In Turkey a lot of women wear burkas or some variation (depending on the specific religion sub-division). In Greece I've seen people (I might have done it myself) stopping with a motorcycle in the ATM and withdrawing money wearing a helmet and leaving, 90 seconds in total. This can't be done in some ATMs which require you to look at the camera before entering the ATM room[1]. However, that's like 5% of the available ATMs.

[1] In Greece this is illegal. The fact that Banks for years get away with taking pictures without any kind of explicit agreement adds to the narrative that Greece is (officially now) a protectorate and banks are WAY above state where it matters.

In Turkey not a lot of women wear burkas. Burkas and the variation that you would like to point are different things. If you wear burkas, it will be really hard for video surveillance. Because only your eyes and wrinkles around them are visible. The other variation "Head Scarf" which lets your face totally visible is ok for identifying people.

From cultural perspective, a lot of women in Turkey wear "head scarf". It is a symbol that you are a part of a religion and you share almost the same vision with the religion that you are a member of. But burkas is different. It means you feel more radicalized in terms of religion. A social example would be shaking hanks with women. If you are a man in Turkey and have a intend to shake a woman's hands, you can do it with a woman wearing "headscarf" but not burkas.
So, basically No. They don't wear burkas at all may be 4% percent at most.

Below is my personal opinion.

I don't really understand why people are bullshitting my country. You never lived there. What you just wrote is a black propaganda. What is the relation between wearing burkas in Turkey and ATM heist? You are not in that position to conclude that opinion. It is just a subliminal message.

A recent survey in Turkey showed that Atheism and other close variants are on the rise at its highest rate ever. I hope that one day people in Turkey will break their chains and get rid of that human-made arabic culture.

They're probably Saudi or Gulf Arab tourists and not Turkish. At least, that was my experience when I have been to Turkey the last time and I'm from the region, I have an easy job identifying people's background from their accent, form and attire than outsiders.

There are some small religious groups that uses a face veiling clothing called "çarşaf". This was also historically used in Ottoman era. this setimes covers below nose, sometimes shows the face. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%87ar%C5%9Faf
Usage seems like .01 to 2 percent of women.

I checked the pics on Google Images, they're virtually taken recently with nothing dating back to the Ottoman period to validate this claim. All look like black Arabian abayas and burkas and it's difficult to imagine that çarşafs and abayas are identical like that.

Fun fact, "çarşaf" or more accurately "şarşaf" in Egyptian Arabic means table clothes or bed clothes. It's amazing words and consequently languages evolve and take on meanings over time.

There's no need to immediately jump to conclusions about "black propaganda". The head scarf/burka definition was probably an honest mistake. And the relation to robbery is a fairly logical followup to ghshephard's comment about Japan's masks helping robbery. The point is that Japan isn't the only country where people regularly wear things on their face.

> I hope that one day people in Turkey will break their chains and get rid of that human-made arabic culture.

Let's assume for the sake of argument that Turkish people manage to get rid of the Arabian deity (Mohammad's god) they embraced a millennia ago, it would be an uphill battle for them against history because whether you like it or not, the most bright spots in history for Turkish people were during the reign of Seljuks and Ottomans, neither would have happened hadn't for the Islamic doctrine and faith.

You could argue of course that Turkey founded by Ataturk was still something impressive and to look up to but it still pales in comparison with what had been achieved during these two eras at least from an imperialistic and militaristic points of view.

That's why I think it wouldn't be easy for Turkey to break free from the negative Arabian influence and Sahara culture even if they renounce Islam altogether when compared to other countries in the region with more diverse and rich history spanning various civilizations and glorious times, and therefore they should focus more on how to reconcile with their past and history and not just get in state of denial about it.

Did the British force people to convert to Christianity for them to enjoy the benefits of being subjects of the monarchy?

The British Empire was vast and I can't come up with a definite answer for all the areas that were colonized by them but in my country "Egypt", they didn't do that. They however facilitated the work of western missionaries but it didn't achieve much with the Muslim locals and probably contributed to the outrage of Coptic clergy as these missionaries were snatching people from their congregation. Other than that, the British didn't really care about religion and their social order was constructed on race/class first basis and anything else second while for the Ottomans it was all about religion first and anything else second.

Did the British persecute Catholics when they were in an imperialist/expansionist mode around the world?

To the best of my knowledge, that didn't happen. The British Empire in its quests wasn't concerned about anti-Catholicism and disdain for the authority of the Pope, it was primarily driven by political/financial gains. On the other hand, for the Ottoman Turks it was all about Jihad and the subjugation of non-Muslims in newly conquered territories. The persecution and discrimination against non-Muslims for the subjects of their realm was one of the founding principles of taheir rule and public policy.

I don't necessarily disagree with your analysis. Or that of others here.

My point is that it's irrelevant in terms of how history affects peoples' actions. You're engaging a detailed study of historical reality, but the masses don't do that. They have a narrative spun for them - generally no more than two or three sentences of complexity, max - and that's what matters.

Thanks for correcting the poster. The US traditionally was very isolationist. After world war one we became more involved in international affairs, and dominant after ww2. We're in an odd time. in the mid 20th century lots and lots of americans had been around the world, because of the wars. But those generations have almost died off. Very few americans have first hand experience with other cultures. I think the general population avoids thinking about other cultures.

Please don't take it personally. It's ignorance. Perceptions are built around these weird media effects from the news. Treat us like puppies or children. it's not malice, we just don't know any better.

The Turkish man you replied to wanted to correct an inaccurate stereotype about Turkish culture. Your comment perpetuates the stereotype that Americans are uneducated on global affairs. This may be true for some, but saying that all Americans should be treated like "puppies" because they "don't know any better" is a huge insult.

As an American myself, I would consider it fair to say that Americans are relatively uneducated on global affairs. Do you have some data suggesting otherwise?

Also, I think you've confused a general with a universal. I don't think he was saying that "all Americans" don't know better, just that when confronted with dumb statements it's better to presume ignorance than malice.

As an example, National Geographic did a survey in 2002, and young Americans came in second to last:

"About 11 percent of young citizens of the U.S. couldn't even locate the U.S. on a map. The Pacific Ocean's location was a mystery to 29 percent; Japan, to 58 percent; France, to 65 percent; and the United Kingdom, to 69 percent."

On the one hand, I find this a bit appalling. On the other, I can't totally blame people; America is big enough and far enough from everything else that relatively few Americans ever leave the country, and those who do mostly stay on the continent. So I don't see a "assume ignorance, not malice" posture as an insult; it's mostly what I do myself.

Although he may have simple meant "presume ignorance, not malice," the wording used was very derogatory.

I do not doubt that Americans on average are less educated on international affairs than other Western countries. But arguing that a factually incorrect comment about Turkish headwear on HN (by a user of unknown nationality) is a result of broader "American ignorance" is meaningless.

Furthermore, I believe m00dy's response was accurate and fair. If he viewed every incorrect comment about Turkish culture as written by an American "puppy," I doubt he would have commented, and no one would have learned anything.

That would be fun to research, but my guess: if you showed them the shape of various countries, more people could pick out the right shape. But that shape cuts off Canada and Mexico in ways that are essentially arbitrary, so if they're keying on those edges, or on the grid-of-states shapes, they could still struggle with a satellite photo.

My guess is that this number would be significantly better today because people interact a lot more with world maps when they accidentally zoom out on, e.g., Google Maps pages.

But something to the tune of "All user biometrics shall only be stored with the consent of the subject." pretty much means it is illegal to do so, unless you have some sort of sign.

This type of law is usually under the guise of protection of personal information, or some other flag. Though the laws vary in many countries. For the sake of argument, I'm simply saying it's not illegal to photograph someone entering your property in order to point out how "secondary" or "related" laws apply without ever explicitly being defined so.

Also Hong Kong. I always thought it may be related to population density. Another thing I've noticed in Hong Kong is sanitizing gel dispensers placed pretty much everywhere - corridors in metro stations, hotels, etc. Seems reasonable with the amount of people living there per square meter of space.

I'm not sure it's population density or at least not that alone. There are parts of the West with comparably high densities, especially in large cities, and covering your face is generally frowned upon.

I suspect that the cultural focus on cleanliness has a lot to do with it, but given that it's Hacker News there may be someone with a more exact idea of the origin.

You wear one if you're sick. So that you don't get other people sick basically.

Contrast with my experience in Sydney, where catching the bus during flu season is bloody hazardous. Being coughed and sneezed on gets old quickly, so I totally understand the surgical mask thing; it's a basic courtesy.

That's not entirely accurate. It's because of H5N1 outbreak 10 years back that people have become a lot more conscious about airborne diseases. It is polite to wear a mask when you are sick so that you don't spread it to other people when you cough or sneeze.

Having lived in Japan for around 10 years, in my experience, the vast majority of mask wearers are doing so because of allergies (particularly Sugi). It's pretty rough for a lot of people - particularly in the early spring months. Also why air purifiers are big business here.

I bet it had to do with the 2003 SARS epidemic in Hong Kong, as is also the case in other nearby Asian cities/countries like Taiwan and Singapore.

I'm from HK and to the best of my memory the practice never existed before the epidemic. During the epidemic, anywhere you went in public, there were at least 8/10 people wearing masks, thanks in part to huge public (TV/print) campaigns by the government and places like schools/clinics/hospitals providing free masks. That is just one of many counter measures that live on to this day. Another one is that all elevators and escalators have stickers or signs stating how many times/day and when it was last disinfected, and elevators tend to have a big clear plastic sheet covering all the buttons.

A great number of the mask users in Japan are allergy sufferers. The Forestry agency in Japan planted mono-culture trees, fast growing cedar. The pollen from these trees waft from the cedar farms in yellow clouds. Having a single predominate plant species putting out so much pollen triggers awful allergies for those people who are sensitive. And triggers normal-bad allergies in people who might not have become allergic without the large exposure to that mono-culture pollen.

Totally different beasts. Muslim women covering their whole body but their eyes is way more difficult to identify for law enforcement since they have only the eyes as one data point to uncover the identity while for Asian folks who cover their mouth - not their face, huge difference -, you'd still get the eyes - provided that they are not covered by sunglasses -, the hair - provided that they are not wearing ridiculous hat -, body shape and probably gait as data points to work on in their search.

All in all, it's still a better situation for the latter than the former when it comes to law enforcement.

14000 transactions at 1400 ATMs in 2 hours?! Think about the logistics. That's 120 transactions per minute. And 1600 cards. Either an army of coordinated people, in itself highly risky as it vastly increases the likelihood of someone grassing on the group, or fewer people all sitting at the same ATMs drawing for 2 hours.... difficult not to get noticed. If they really pulled this off it will be the most well organized organized crime ever.

>I'm also a bit surprised the criminals carried their operation in Japan, It would have been easier in a more messy place e.g India / Africa ?

No, you'd want a location with lots of ATMs that have large amounts of money in them. In my experience India and Africa would both be particularly bad places for this. LE isn't a factor here, mules may get arrested but the perpetrators certainly don't care.

>No, you'd want a location with lots of ATMs that have large amounts of money in them. In my experience India and Africa would both be particularly bad places for this. LE isn't a factor here, mules may get arrested but the perpetrators certainly don't care.

Contrary to popular belief (and "your experience", Africa & India , has a lot of ATMs that have a lot of money, I am from South Africa, and I've been to India so I know this for a fact.

Eh, it's not too bad for 2 hours work. Assuming 100 people (which would be about 9 minutes per ATM -- 1 minute to withdraw, 8 minutes to travel to the next one), that's $127,000 for two hours of unskilled labor. If you assume that half of that gets passed upward, that's $63,500 for each of the 100 unskilled workers and $6.35 million for some smaller group (say, 5-10) who organized it.

It's actually probably safer for the workers than the organizers -- if one of the workers is picked up, they probably have a huge incentive to roll over and give up the guy who recruited them, but the organizers probably won't get much out of giving up their 100 minions.

And yeah, $50,000 probably isn't life-changing for you but if you're a teenager or 20-something without any prospects, it could be life changing. It's not "retire to an island" money, but it is "pay for college", "start a small business", "buy a car" and "move out of your craphole town to a place with economic opportunity" money.

And for the organizers, $1M a piece may be retire-to-an-island money, assuming you mean "move to a cheap island" and not "buy your own island".

>TOKYO (Kyodo) -- A total of 1.4 billion yen ($12.7 million) in cash has been stolen from some 1,400 automated teller machines in convenience stores across Japan in the space of two hours earlier this month, investigative sources said Sunday.

The timing of ATM chip deployment is determined by the region's rate of card fraud, not technological sophistication. There were significant transaction costs for the transition, and it made economic sense to roll them out sooner in places with higher rates for fraud, so, Europe before US. Not sure about how the rollout happened in Japan, but it makes sense that they haven't completed a transition given their very low crime rate.

This is factually incorrect on two grounds: First, the adoption of Chip & Pin in Europe predates the European Union. Second, credit card fraud in Europe, France in particular, was out of control before its adoption. I believe it was either a French or Swiss researcher that developed the technology in response.

My understanding is that French (and presumably other European) banks assigned the liability for fraud to the account holder, whereas in the US, liability for fraudulent credit card charges falls to the banks and the credit card processing networks.

This meant that individual account holders were much more tolerant of chip-and-pin technology, and demanded additional security features like portable card readers, which mean that the credit card never leaves the account holder's possession.

This is mostly false. In the past, the liability was completely on the bank. In October, it switched to the merchant only if the merchant hadn't upgraded to a chip reader. The switchover process is continuing, and when it is complete the liability will be with the banks, as it was before.

I don't doubt that that many complicated economic and political factors influenced things, but you're interpreting the fraud data wrong. The US credit card fraud rate as a fraction of transactions value is currently only double (~2.1 times) the EU rate, and only 1.5 times the UK rate:

Interchange fees are set based (in large part) on how much fraud the processor expects to deal with. This is why interchange fees are lower for card-present than card-not-present transactions, and higher in business categories that tend to have more fraud.

A processor does not charge lower fees for chip cards in a vacuum, they do it because they expect to eat less fraud from chip cards.

Oh, I understand what you're claiming now. But I don't think the effect your describing is very important. As colechristensen points out, the fees in the US are 5-20 times larger while their fraud rate is only about twice. So it looks like other factors (e.g. degree of regulation, monopsony effects, etc.) have a much larger influence on interchange fees than fraud rates. Indeed, the amount lost from fraud is only about 0.1% of transactions in the US, and 0.05% in the EU.

7-Eleven and Post Offices are the only places which accept cards issued outside of Japan. I assume they have to cover all possible types of cards, otherwise people from other countries could get stuck without money here that way.

South Africa has had chip-and-pin cards for a very long time, but like many other countries the magstripe was kept for compatibility with US cards (I was told). I used to think this was common the world over. Not so?

Fax machines are still present pretty much everywhere, especially in corporations and government facilities. When I've been working in the UK 5 years ago in a large research institution, I had a fax machine next to my desk.

(The only thing it did though was activating once a day and printing out some ads, mostly car dealerships or insurances, AFAIR.)

I used to help my dad identify senders of spam faxes so we could get a court to issue summary judgment. I think the fine can be tripled if the violation is willful.

Even with faxes from a whole bunch of his clients... as many as I could trace back to the sender, and then of course collecting the judgment isn't easy. So after all that, it was barely enough to pay me. I guess that is why you don't see folks going after the spammers as much.

Contactless only lets you spend 25 pounds(so I guess $30-40) in a single transaction, you can only do 5 a day(until you have to enter the pin), and it's impossible to withdraw cash using it. The card also won't surrender its data without a valid decryption key from an authorized terminal. I have absolutely no idea how you can even describe contactless as "worse" in this case.

Thus the more accurate title would be "12M stolen from hacked South African bank via 1,400 ATMs across Japan" since the statement in your title is demonstrably false, while the other title is (presumably, from the article) true.

If they can coordinate a 100 person operation across 1400 ATMs nationwide in the span of two hours, I'd assume they had basic face covering to make it hard for authorities to determine their identities. At least, I hope so. After all that trouble...

Besides, I think the decision to execute the transactions in a short time window is correct. Otherwise banks would easily spot a pattern in the transactions (max amount, stolen CC, South Africa) and start rejecting them. Even if legitimate transactions are denied, it's still worth it. They would have never been able to get away with $12 mil in cash.

The way these things are usually setup, the people using the cards have little to do with collecting the info, or making the cards. If a few are fought they don't know anything about the others, and are much harder to trace. So cops don't put a lot of effect into tracking these people.

There are now 100 people holding cash. How will the organizers get it back?

Dead drops? One guy talks, they have a drop site. Law enforcement knows how to do stakeouts. Wait until someone comes to pick up the cash from the drop site, tail him to wherever he goes next.

Deposit it in real banks and transfer it somewhere? Okay, now you don't even need a participant to cooperate, you can just identify him and pull his bank records.

Maybe they convert it to BTC. Are there mixing services doing enough volume to really be untraceable? Otherwise investigators can watch it on the other side and see whose bank account it gets converted into.

The whole point of mules is for them to get burned. Assuming this was done properly, every single one of those 100 people can get caught and the cops won't be any closer to catching the people responsible.

That only holds true once the money has percolated up the chain - if they catch anyone in the window prior to the handoff, it could be of use.

Of course, if they pulled this off effectively, the drops all were probably executed soon after the 2h window, and then you've got a much colder trail to follow, even if you find one of the mules and magically have video surveillance of the region.

In all likelihood the handoff would be executed via bitcoins or a wire transfer by whoever is coordinating the operation in Japan. In all likelihood the people actually responsible for the hack are going to be eastern european or Russian, and once the money is no longer in cash it'll be gone forever.

More likely, the Yakusa can find 100 random people who they have some sort of leverage over and who know virtually nothing about anything of importance so it doesn't especially matter if they get arrested.

Assuming ATMs take and store a photo every time they're used, then it'll be a matter of matching the photos to photos of people already in the corpus of training data several times. That makes it quite easy.

The guys retrieving the money, yes, but that doesn't guarantee that the masterminds will get caught.

Chances are the ones going to the ATMs are money mules (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_mule), probably not of the completely innocent kind, but of the "not too smart, falling for a 'want to earn $100 in an hour?'" question from a 'friend'.

$100 will give them about a 10% cut, if they do one ATM. It is more likely, though, that they had each guy do >1 ATM. So, you would need, maybe, around 250 of these guys. To recruit them, find around 50 slightly smarter but still not too smart guys who get $2000 each. On top of that, you need real criminals who can make sure the lower levels do not run away with the money, either by convincingly threatening them with bodily harm, or by following them to the ATMs while staying out of view of the cameras.

Yes, costs will add up, but you should be able to keep costs below 50%.

A 10% cut wouldn't be $100. It sounds like each person ran about 140(!) transactions, maxing the withdrawal on each one. That's 14 million yen per person or about 127,000 usd. 10% would be 12,700. Still possible that this happened but my guess is it was yakuza given the coordination and manpower.