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Made in the USA and Unions

10-13-2011, 11:25 AM

I understand the mindset of small business owners on this Forum. I also understand the folks who have been bullied by Union thugs and it bothers me. I have been a long time Union member so I also understand the benefits of Unions. In my case they made the workplace safer and bargained for better benefits my company could well afford, and still can!

I have no doubt there have been businesses that have suffered and closed due to Union pressure and demands, BUT, I am equally positive that all the businesses that left the USA and moved to mexico, communist china, india and the rest of the third world did so to avoid even minimum wages and the oversight of our EPA and OSHA. If you folks who blindly hate Unions can't see or admit that, I won't argue the point. I feel our standard of living and economy are doomed and we have ourselves to blame and not Unions. There were planty of folks working manufacturing and other jobs right here who made minimum wage and no benefits but who lost their jobs to slave labor abroad.
Plug your ears to the truth and "The Facts" and keep blaming Unions if it makes you feel good, but ask yourself if you wold hire a worker for two dollars a day if it was legal? That's what all the companies that left did, and it didn't have a dam thing to do with Unions! Frank

question to you what do you have to say about prevailing wages
here you have a school that has to pay some one $50 an hr and the same worker making $30 an hr can do the same job
we dont do that type of work but i cant see why the have to pay the higher cost because the union will lose work
we get paid good our health benefits are ok i get to take home a van at no cost to me

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Unions shouldn't have any say so in pay. It is absurd what some people get paid simply because they work for the union.

I am all for a safer workplace, and all the good things that the union does, but as far as negotiating for wages, that should be out. It automatically makes things more expensive, when in reality most of the people getting the raise don't deserve it. If you are a valuable asset to the company, if you are worth it, and need it and can prove it, then chances are you will get the raise. If you don't get it, then maybe sure they are being cheap, but it's not like anyone is FORCING you to work there.

Look at the auto workers. their wages are ridiculous.

I have never worked for a union, mainly because of the iffyness that you will get work around here. And there are WAYYYYYYYY too many polotics involved. Union guys are known for their workmanship. And I respect the hell out of them for that. But take unions out of the money game. Just seems to drive up the price of stuff for no reason. Or maybe let the union argue for each individual on a case by case basis for a raise annually or something. Because, you and I know there are some people that are just not deserving. If you are working at the same level, and output, and skill, and dedication that you were 5 years ago, then you don't really deserve a raise, because you are not actually worth anything more than you were then. You are giving the company any reason to give you a raise. Other than you "want" more money.

I cann understand that things get more expensive over time, so you "need" a raise, but if I ran a business and you are basically the same employee you were at 1 year, as you are now 5 years later, you can stop wasting my time and figure out what it is YOU need to do to be more valuable. then prove it to me, and sure if deserving then you would get a raise. But, just because you work for a union is absurd. If you really are that unhappy with your wages, and feel so wronged, then go do something else.

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Without unions all you would have is places like walmart where ten people become some of the riches people in the world while millions work for them fifty hours a week and cant make rent. Alo mention af the autoworkers making to much. Wow I guess were going to blame the worker for the shortcomings of the company. I guess we will also blame the tellers for all the large banks that got bailouts. Maybe we should lay blame where it belongs on the white collar workers that are getting multi million dollar bonus for failing to do there job. Oh wait that is everyone in our goverment as well. Unions have done more for the woking class people than anybody else has or ever will. Now are there some bad things that have developed, sure, but thats with anything that gets that big. Everyone on here or that reads this has been helped by unions weather they want ot admit it or not.

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Unions shouldn't have any say so in pay. It is absurd what some people get paid simply because they work for the union.

I am all for a safer workplace, and all the good things that the union does, but as far as negotiating for wages, that should be out. It automatically makes things more expensive, when in reality most of the people getting the raise don't deserve it. If you are a valuable asset to the company, if you are worth it, and need it and can prove it, then chances are you will get the raise. If you don't get it, then maybe sure they are being cheap, but it's not like anyone is FORCING you to work there.

Look at the auto workers. their wages are ridiculous.

I have never worked for a union, mainly because of the iffyness that you will get work around here. And there are WAYYYYYYYY too many polotics involved. Union guys are known for their workmanship. And I respect the hell out of them for that. But take unions out of the money game. Just seems to drive up the price of stuff for no reason. Or maybe let the union argue for each individual on a case by case basis for a raise annually or something. Because, you and I know there are some people that are just not deserving. If you are working at the same level, and output, and skill, and dedication that you were 5 years ago, then you don't really deserve a raise, because you are not actually worth anything more than you were then. You are giving the company any reason to give you a raise. Other than you "want" more money.

I cann understand that things get more expensive over time, so you "need" a raise, but if I ran a business and you are basically the same employee you were at 1 year, as you are now 5 years later, you can stop wasting my time and figure out what it is YOU need to do to be more valuable. then prove it to me, and sure if deserving then you would get a raise. But, just because you work for a union is absurd. If you really are that unhappy with your wages, and feel so wronged, then go do something else.

Stolen, I've enjoyed many of your posts and would like to respond to this one. Many Union workers can't get up and change careers or employers because they are in specific jobs and have time invested which equals certain benefits. The fact that things are constantly getting more expensive, including the cost of hiring tradespeople who pass their inflated costs onto their customers, requires greater salaries. If you ran a moderately small business, you could call the shots and make the decisions of who gets a raise. When you run a big company like the one I worked for Verizon, it's not the same. They are paying upper management hundreds of thousands, and they need a huge workforce which cannot be replaced with folks off the street. Big business actually has a lot invested in it's employees and the Unions bank on that to leverage raises. I will say as I have in the past that all this talk of wages and raises whether it's private or gov't Unions should depend on the practical and sustainable reality involved. Can the private business afford to pay a raise for it's employees? Can a state gov't afford to pay it's Union workers a raise or greater benefits? How much longer can private citizens afford to pay the higher costs of running a business that tradespeople are forced to pass onto comsumers? All of this has gotten out of hand in my opinion. There should have been greater gov't oversight years ago to prevent the loss of so many American jobs. Most other countries protect their jobs by enforcing high tarrifs and trade limits on imports, (goods we try to export to their countries). Unions are the scapegoats of folks who refuse to understand that those jobs that left here would have gone if we had no Unions. The lure of slave labor pay, no workers rights, no workers protection(OSHA), no environmental protection(The EPA) is too great. Does anyone here think for a second, the trades would be secure if there was a way to export their work? If you answered yes, you are a fool! We already have illegals doing trade work and if there was a way to have slave labor from communist china doing plumbing, carpentry and electrical work in the USA, there would be millions more Americans unemployed and facing foreclosure.

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What happens during a standard wage negotiation or whatever it's called? Does the union go to the company and say hey, these guys need more money, we think they need 5 more dollars a hour?
Does the company say anything like, sure but they have to do certain things different? Or is it just basically getting more money and that is all?

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What happens during a standard wage negotiation or whatever it's called? Does the union go to the company and say hey, these guys need more money, we think they need 5 more dollars a hour?
Does the company say anything like, sure but they have to do certain things different? Or is it just basically getting more money and that is all?

My experience from thirty years of employment and Union member ship has been that every three years our contract would expire. Management would either refuse to bargain at all and we would go on strike ( longest strike was 7 months), during which time bargaining teams from both management and the Union would meet occassionally to discuss matters, or a settlement would be reached ahead of the strike deadline. Verizon(formerly New york Telephone, NYNEX,Bell Atlantic) would hear arguments for the cost of living increases, arguments of how they have prospered due to our increased productivity or other help with their business, and at some point we would get a settlement which would include a small raise over three years. Over the thirty years of working there, I placed the first fiber optic lines to connect the boroughs of NY to surrounding areas. I saw the central office switching equipment evolve from electro magnetic to digital. The business grew by the billions as Union workers saw wages and benefits grow. The business never suffered. When there was a devistating fire at their 13th street central office, thousands of us worked in an environment that posed health risks from both carcinogens and structural hazards. I worked in asbestos environments without proper protection and with lead and hazardous chemicals and was tested for years afterwards.
I have had guns pulled on me, bricks thrown at me and worked knee deep in dirty pampers, dog excrement, garbage and condoms, been attacked by dogs, and fought with drunken, drugged up folks on the street while doing my job. So, YES, I got a few dollars more here and there! Don't forget, to afford housing most people commute to work, when I started gasoline was $.60 a gallon, it' more than six times that now. Same goes for my heating fuel and food. It is not greed on the part of any worker, but necessity that drives the need for more income.
Bring back jobs so more folks can pay taxes and support the government. Go after the oil companies and cap their profits so we are not spending billions to drive and heat our homes, money that could be spent paying for home additions, repairs and other things that benefit more than stockholders. Our economy is way out of wack and Unions did not cause the problem. Explain to me how you expect our economy to recover or stabilize when most of our consumer wealth leaves the USA never to return? When we are paying for the healthcare and college of millions of illegals? When our government is going further into debt to pay for wars it cannot afford? Unions struggle to keep their American working members employed and above water so they can pay taxes, be good consumers, members of their communities and raise families. Yes, all of us Union and nonUnion needed a raise to pay for the inflation caused by the loss of revenue paying businesses and jobs lost to the third world, along with the massive increases in the cost of gasoline, heating oil, electricity and food.

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Frank, where are the raises for the other 80% of the American people who are not in Unions, to afford this cost of living?

Answer me this question, do you think teachers care that millions in this country are forced out of their homes because of constant raises in their school taxes? We are in a recession, people are losing jobs, but the school taxes keep rising...is that fair? Should a person who has lived in their home for 30 years be forced out because they can no longer pay the rising tax prices?

This morning in our local newspaper, the school superintendent got approved for a 4% raise to $174,354 cause obviously the $167,648 wasn't enough last year.

We had 4-5 major school strikes this year in my area and how does that look to people who are barely making it or have no jobs?

So while the prices of everything around me is rising (taxes,materials,food, etc) should I pass that cost onto my customers who don't get raises, so they get nailed twice?

I'm definitely NOT saying that the Unions are the main problems for what's going on in this country, but they definitely play a significant part in it. I guess if I was on your side of the fence..I would probably take your stance.

My bottom line is...the cost of living is way to high...something has to give here. We can't keep printing money, and we can't keep handing out money either.

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Frank both of my grandfathers were union members, so I do know what good the unions did for our workforce in this country. That was in the past. Unions have become a money making machine for union leadership & they have no intention on fixing the problems the unions are creating for employers. Unions need to adapt to economic conditions of today. The sweetheart deals unions recieved in the past were a short term solution for their employers & could not & did not last long term. What unions need to is get rid of the deadbeats making them look bad, make it possible for members to multi-task (who cares if you are skilled labor & you also have to sweep floors as long as you get paid the skilled pay rate), & be more flexible in the way members are paid ( performance bonuses, raises that are tied to performance not time in service, & profit sharing retirement programs instead of pensions.) AS far as union members not being able to change employers & making the same amount of money & benefits that is proof they are over paid. It does not matter who you are if you can't make what you are making where you are at somewhere else than you are overpaid. AS for paying my employees I pay them a low base rate, performance bonuses & profit sharing bonuses. They end up making more than the average employee in their field. Bottom line if they don't perform & I don't make money they don't make money. Yes my employees are happy with the money they make. They just don't like me

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Frank, where are the raises for the other 80% of the American people who are not in Unions, to afford this cost of living?

Answer me this question, do you think teachers care that millions in this country are forced out of their homes because of constant raises in their school taxes? We are in a recession, people are losing jobs, but the school taxes keep rising...is that fair? Should a person who has lived in their home for 30 years be forced out because they can no longer pay the rising tax prices?

This morning in our local newspaper, the school superintendent got approved for a 4% raise to $174,354 cause obviously the $167,648 wasn't enough last year.

We had 4-5 major school strikes this year in my area and how does that look to people who are barely making it or have no jobs?

So while the prices of everything around me is rising (taxes,materials,food, etc) should I pass that cost onto my customers who don't get raises, so they get nailed twice?

I'm definitely NOT saying that the Unions are the main problems for what's going on in this country, but they definitely play a significant part in it. I guess if I was on your side of the fence..I would probably take your stance.

My bottom line is...the cost of living is way to high...something has to give here. We can't keep printing money, and we can't keep handing out money either.

To begin with not all Union workers are getting raises, many are frozen or consenting to givebacks. CT state Union workers recently agreed to a one and a half billion dollar concession agreement to prevent layoffs. People who charge for services such as tradepeople simply increase what they charge customers as mentioned several time on this forum. White collar workers and those in positions of power in government give themselves raises and answer to no one! Among the folks who have fallen behind in this inflation race to the bottom are the people who have defaulted on their mortgages and live in tent cities, people who stopped paying their credit card debt and declared bankruptcy. The cost of living is not to high because of Unions, it is too high because big oil can charge whatever it wants for gasoline and heating oil, other energy and essentials such as food are too costly. People who manipulate the price of things we eat and buy contribute to the devaluation of the dollar. Let's not forget the illegals we are giving healthcare and college educations, or our government that is deep in debt. Yes, something has to give here. Millions of Americans are out of work with no prospects in sight, our government refuses to stop spending and do anything to bring back jobs. Find the real reasons for the mess we are in so you are mad at the right people! IF my dog starts drinking a lot more water than normal, I don't assume he's become a slob that's drinking for the heck of it. I look to the cause of his thirst. Our economy is dying without work and tax revenue, we can't support all the folks who either don't pay into the system or take from it legally. The fish stinks from the head and the head needs to get a good beating. Frank
P.S. Our school superintendent is paid over $200,000.00, WHY? Why did they have to go out of state to hire a person at this salary?
Why can't the job pay $70k or $80K at best?

Disagree with this statement Frank, as the spending Obama wants to do is going right towards the Unions. When Obama says "Infrastructure" who is he actually talking about? When he talks about roads and bridges, and trains etc...are they non-union people doing all that work? Who got Obama's stimulus money? I'm not even going to get into the teachers and the fleecing they are doing to the tax payer.

The public unions ARE apart of the problem Frank when taxpayer money is involved. The taxes I'm going to be paying on my new house, which is part of my cost of living, is tied to the teachers Union.

We are taxed enough Frank, and I already explained if we tax the rich more, it wouldn't even scratch a dent into the deficit. We need MAJOR MAJOR spending cuts in this country, and we ALL are going to feel some pain.

We don't work for the Government Frank...giving the Government money is not in our best interest. The Government works for US, and Obama has a very hard time grasping that concept. Raising taxes like you want will only hurt the economy further, and since that money wouldn't put a dent into the deficit, it will only go in some lobbyist's slush fund somewhere....no thanks!

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Flux, you need a longer memory to understand inflation. All those things I mentioned in my post which you completely ignored, necessitated higher wages and contributed to the devaluation of the dollar. You keep blaming Unions and apply short term memory, and you will never get the big picture. Give it another read for the heck of it and see if you can't get a bit more understanding beyond blaming Unions. There's some good stuff in there. Frank

Flux, you need a longer memory to understand inflation. All those things I mentioned in my post which you completely ignored, necessitated higher wages and contributed to the devaluation of the dollar. You keep blaming Unions and apply short term memory, and you will never get the big picture. Give it another read for the heck of it and see if you can't get a bit more understanding beyond blaming Unions. There's some good stuff in there. Frank

My long term memory is fine, I was alive but young when Jimmy Carter was President and when he had some of the highest inflation this country ever seen. The Obama administration does not seem concerned with addressing the dire issue of "inflation" caused by its "overspending and out-of-control money printing". (Jimmy Carter Jr.?)

Pumping printed money into the stock market and handing out money to Unions is part of the problem Frank, but NOT the entire problem. I honestly don't care if a Union worker has to file bankruptcy like the rest of Americans have to do when ends don't meet. "Necessitated higher wages" regarding the Unions is part of the problem.

It's nothing more than a conflict of interest with Democrats and Unions. Unions cry they need more money for so called middle class workers...Democrats give it to them, then the President says "we need to raise taxes and spend for infrastructure in this country". Which means we have to pay more in taxes because the so called "middle class" Union (which does not represent this middle class Plumber) needs more money because of over spending done by politicians. Then Unions kick back our tax paying money to Democratic campaigns.