Posted
by
Soulskill
on Tuesday January 22, 2013 @08:36PM
from the because-everybody's-clamoring-for-more-expensive-tablets dept.

adeelarshad82 writes "According to Microsoft, the Surface Windows 8 Pro will be available for purchase on Feb. 9 in the U.S. and Canada. As anticipated, the Surface Pro will be slightly thicker than the Surface with Windows RT, and will weigh about two pounds. The tablet is powered with an Intel Core i5 processor and 4GB of memory. It also includes an 802.11 a/b/g/n dual band Wi-Fi, a stylus for pressure-sensitive input, dual 720p HD webcams, a full-sized USB 3.0 port, microSDXC slot, and mini DisplayPort. Since the Surface Pro runs Windows 8 Pro, it will work with your corporate infrastructure, as well as any older apps that you used on Windows XP to 7. In terms of pricing, the 64GB version will cost $899 while the 128GB will set you back by $999."

Windows RT was a dismal failure, and Windows 8 will be equally disastrous. It fails on the touch front and on the mouse and keyboard front. Having tried it extensively, allow me to name the ways:

Touch:1) The Metro home screen is the only touch-friendly aspect of it. However, it is filled with useless Microsoft apps that can't function without an internet connection and are tied to largely inferior Microsoft internet services.2) It has the usual miserable Windows software keyboard and handwriting recognition, with fairly limited support.3) Outside of Metro, the remainder is the usual touch-unfriendly Windows interface meant for a mouse and keyboard, where fat fingers will simply fail. This is what gets me the most. If the thing is a touchscreen, then it should be configured out of the box to be touch-friendly. Instead, it is configured as un-touch-friendly as possible. And worse, while you can say switch Explorer to use large icons on a grid instead of the list or details view, many screens simply don't have a touch-friendly interface.4) The edge swiping is annoying and easy to do accidentally, The left edge "screen list" is useful, but only to bring up Metro apps.5) Having to go to Metro just to access the swipe that will bring up a button to get to the list of programs is painfully clunky. The bottom swipe should be active on the desktop screen, and it should be the list of applications, not an extra button.6) The right swipe should have been able to access the entire control panel, but instead, it's largely useless.

On the mouse and keyboard front:

1) The Metro UI and swiping is as horrible as expected. Some things have Metro and old Windows equivalents, but most do not. It's incredibly annoying to switch between mouse and keyboard, and touch, and that's pretty much what's necessary to use Metro.2) And I don't think I need to mention that you can't even get to your software list without going through Metro, which is already a three step affair even by touch.3) It doesn't come with the cover, which is another $150.

Oh, and did I mention that you have to "activate" Windows before you can use some of its functionality? It's hardware made by Microsoft but there's somehow still a chance copy of Windows on it can be a bootleg. Activation is automatic with an internet connection, fortunately, but it's ridiculous that it's even necessary.

I expect Windows 8 to be slightly better than RT, in that it can run traditional apps. And there are third-party programs to minimize the damage Metro causes for those who want to do useful work with it. But that's about as good as it'll get. It's still a touch disaster, and a fairly useless "entertainment" device (RT comes with Office, but no games preinstalled).

Microsoft needs to shape up if they want to even have a shot at the tablet market. They possess a split personality disorder both on the UI front and on the developer front that they very much need to ditch. If they can't seem to figure out what kind of machine it is (or develop a separate "personality" for each purpose), nobody else will be able to. And people will avoid it.

For starters, they're going to have to revamp the entire look-and-feel of their tablet Windows to be touch-centric. It'll be easy to go from touch back to mouse and keyboard, because the mouse is just a very, very fine finger. But they need to commit to it, instead of leaving half of the screens in the old Windows UI and the other (useless) half touch-friendly.

And they'll have to include the keyboard out of the box. The software keyboard is a stinking manure pile. Nobody's going to buy a Surface/Pro without an external keyboard. Nobody's going to touch Windows RT/8 without a real keyboard.

Portable work devices are rarely perpetually-connected, while entertainment devices are usually connected. Including Office with RT to make it a useful work device was genius, but not including any games was equally boneheaded stupid.

Only if they can fix the split personality disorder in the rumored Windows 8.1, could it be a useable OS. Otherwise, it'll just be another disaster.

It might be a third less because it uses a shitty ARM CPU, has half the RAM, one eighth the amount of storage space, no touchscreen, no pen input, no memory card slot, lower resolution and weighs more than the Surface Pro.

It might be a third less because it uses a shitty ARM CPU, has half the RAM, one eighth the amount of storage space, no touchscreen, no pen input, no memory card slot, lower resolution and weighs more than the Surface Pro.

No its a third...as in you can but three of them for the same price as Surface. Pro. It comes with 100GB of cloud storage...and has a memory card slot. runs a lightweight OS [and can run Ubuntu too:). Other than touch-screen something I want...if I can get android compatibility, but that has been announced on the next chrome book there is embarrassingly little in it.

...but your right it is not exactly the specifications, but functionally very similar, and has advantages cost being the most glaring.

Oh, you think I'm just spewing what everyone else is saying? That's true but only because it is true. Here's why...

It's design sucks. A device can only be really good at one thing. This is not a new principle to design but pretty much the fucking foundation of industrial design.

Want more?

It's too heavy, expensive and crappy on battery power to be a good tablet, and it doesn't have a real keyboard or adequate screen size to make it a good laptop. Basically, they've built a "laplet" (or "tabtop", if you prefer). Unfortunately for Microsoft, nobody has ever asked for a laplet. This thing will fail even bigger than the Surface RT.

Like I said, it sucks. Even Microsoft is starting to realize it so they've already decided to drop the price by $100.

I'd say the main reason it "sucks" is OS. It's still a horrifying chimera of desktop and tablet, and does neither thing well. Hardware itself actually looks good enough for what I would use it for, if a bit pricy. But I'm not into tablets anyway.

That said if I were, that actually looks good. Solid build, essentially a laptop inside the screen with attachable keyboard. I can see this replacing an ultrabook for those who want to replace one with a tablet, but need x86.

I only got to try it briefly in a store, but what youre describing makes it sound like youve never used the thing. It is a tad heavy, sure, but not overwhelmingly so, and the keyboards were actually quite good.

Unfortunately for Microsoft, nobody has ever asked for a laplet.

I mean, its not like theres a market for iPads with keyboards, right?

Surface isnt a laplet, its in the same market as iPads are, and its quite a large market.

and the list goes on and on and on. Pretty much every one of these carries with it compromises that can be lambasted by anyone inclined to do so. In all successful cases, the benefits match or exceed the compromise. Some of these examples are more enduring than others, but the bottom line is that compromised hybrid designs are a fine way to go about product design.

lol, now show a list of all the hybrid concepts that have utterly failed. It's miles long. And keep in mind that some of your examples are pretty damn weak:

Hammer + crowbar: It's a mediocre crowbar. I've done a lot of demo work and a single purpose crowbar works much, much better.MP3+Video player: It's just a media player. It's still serving one purpose.Camera w/interchangeable lens: It's still designed for a single purpose: taking good pictures. Interchangeable lenses enable that.

Skeletools (and the like) actually have a primary function: to be a portable tool kit and it does a good job of it. Would you try to fix your car with it? Fuck no. But it can be a nice tool on a camping trip where you cannot cart around 100lbs of tools with you (and would be overkill anyway).

I have played with the RT. I don't want to get into the RT because that's not what this thread is about. I'm glad that your happy with your new device.

My point is that this is more like a skeletool. It may not be as good at any one thing but when you add up all the different things it's good enough at you get something that's pretty great.

I brought up RT only because it's the same basic physical design.

We will see. But even if it doesn't gain a huge chunk of the tablet / ultrabook market share does that mean it has failed? OSX is still at about the same market share it's always been at but people don't say it has failed. However it works out I'm glad to s

The pry bar on a hammer is really only good for removing nails and minor demo work. You need a true pry/crow bar to get real work done. I say this as someone who has spent a lot of time doing demo work.

Surface Pro is the best tablet that can run x86 applications. Show me another machine that is as thin, light, and powerful with a stylus. You can't.

I'll also save you the trouble of reading two replies to your posts....

It's too heavy, expensive and crappy on battery power to be a good tablet

You might say a tablet is defined by being thin and light and having all day battery life, but that's different from what I want in a tablet. I want a stylus for writing. Surface Pro has this, 90% of tablets today don't. I want ports for USB drives, portable harddrives, video out. Surface Pro has this, 90% of tablets today don't. I want an SD card slot for expansion and swapping cards. Surface Pro has this, 90% of tablets today don't. Hell even Google's Nexus tablets don't have this. So in my book, Surface Pro is the only real tablet out there. It all depends on the user's needs. The Surface pro is a little thicker and heavier than iPad (.5 lbs and.5") but the tradeoff is more power with an i5 and compatibility with millions of applications and devices. So great for you if your iPad or Android tablet is thinner and lighter and lasts all day. I don't care because they are as useless as rocks for my needs, and I'll gladly pay $899 for a tablet that does what I want.

and it doesn't have a real keyboard or adequate screen size to make it a good laptop.

What about this [microsoft.com] isn't a "real" keyboard? Or the infinite variety of bluetooth keyboards or wired USB keyboards that can be plugged in? I also fail to see how 10.6" is not an adequate screen size but 11.6" on the Macbook Air somehow is. That extra 1" is the threshold? I might similarly say the Macbook Air has inadequate resolution (1366×768 vs 1920x1080 on Surface Pro). Or that Macbook Air is too heavy (2.38lbs vs 2.01lbs). Or too thick (0.68" vs 0.5"). Or too expensive ($999 vs $899).

The thing you are overlooking is your needs aren't a significant part of the market. A stylus and all that other stuff? If those were major selling points then Microsoft would have been successful with tablets say... 15 years ago.

Tablets 15 years ago were massively prone to breakage, had awful touch interfaces, had awful touch hardware, and were generally bad at everything they tried to be.

How many people have you seen with iPads and keyboards? What do you suppose those keyboards are for, if not "office-y" stuff? You dont think having the full MS Office available for surface (and built in by default) will have an effect here?

I don't need a tablet that can run x86 apps. Users don't give a flying shit about "x86" they just give a shit about having good apps to run. iOS and Android already offer that in spades. And the Samsung Galaxy Note supports the stylus in ALL apps, not just specially written ones.

Show me another machine that is as thin, light, and powerful with a stylus. You can't.

The Surface has a place. 90% of the corporate world use x86 apps, good luck running those on any other tablet. I've worked a few places that tried to do the iPad or Galaxy Tab thing and it never works because productivity requires a keyboard, a mouse, and corporate apps (which just happen to mostly be x86).
We currently pay $1500 for a corporate laptop and another $500 for an iPad for a lot of our users. Even at $1100 (incl some accessories this is a win for us). I'm sure we're not the only company in the world in this situation.

Yeah, I get what you're saying with the corporate angle but most corps don't bother getting people iPads (unless they are salesmen or execs), so they can just issue a standard Windows laptop and call it done.

But I don't get it. The majority of x86 apps are not designed to work on tablets. Whether it can launch Quickbooks or not is irrelevant if actually trying to use Quickbooks is an unbelievably awful experience.

Aren't most corporate apps these days really Web apps? Where I work (very big, very multinational software company), the only things that everyone has to use and that actually have to *run* on people's machines are Web browser, VPN, and maybe an office suite.

Tablets already have the first 2 covered quite well. (It's not like we're sitting around on our thumbs waiting on ports of Firefox or AnyConnect to iOS and Android.) And who the fuck is going to write a 20-page whitepaper or 50-slide PPT preso on a tabl

I use it day to day. The issue is that if you're running a desktop app on a tablet you have a choice – make the buttons big enough to tap on, but for no content to fit on the screen (because it wasn't designed to run on a tablet), or make content fit on the screen, but the controlls to small to use. By contrast, software actually designed for tablets does not have this problem, because it's UI is laid out in such a way that content is accessible despite big chunky controls. This also does not solve

Uh, what? Being able to play Crusader Kings 2 on a tablet is a huge selling point.

Unfortunately... you can't actually play it, because it's designed with a mouse/track pad/track point in mind, not a touch screen. As soon as you want to get your character sheet open, and try to right click on that portrait you're going to realise why this was such a terrible idea.

Who actually cares about a tablet that can run win32 and win64 software? The overwhelming majority of those programs were designed for PCs, and aren't well matched to tablets. The genius of iOS and Android is that the whole platform is built for mobile use. I can't imagine trying to run, say, Simply Accounting or Office 2007 on a tablet. It would be nightmarish.

Show me another machine that is as thin, light, and powerful with a stylus. You can't.

Actually, the Surface Pro is a brick - it's heavy as hell, and there is a good reason for that: the oversized battery. The device has a much higher power dissipation than any other existing tablet, and even the oversized battery can keep it "alive" for 4 hours only.

As for a tablet that is actually light and thin, and "powerful with a stylus", the current king of the hill is the Samsung Galaxy Note II.

Why would any professor worth his salt "Recommend" his students be locked into a device for consumption rather than one that more freely enables co-operation and creativity? Because that's not education is for, that's why.

And that's why one would recommend a tablet that runs a full desktop OS and can, in fact, function as a proper laptop for 99% of users with the addition of a simple keyboard. Android, as much as I love it, can't do that; iOS, as much as Apple users adore it, can't either.

Yes, and those who want a tablet would also have to buy a tablet. And those tho want to use their desktop applications when all they happened to bring was their tablet will be glad they have a Surface Pro.

For classroom accessory, laptops make much more sense, since you have desks to place them on - and they're much more convenient that way than a tablet would be. And the laptop can have a touch screen, too, and many newer ones (also with Win8) do.

Tablets could be a natural classroom accessory for technical fields of study. Instead of showing Power Point decks, profs could beam rich slides and video clips to hundreds of students toting these tablets.

Or they could, you know, just have one big screen at the front of the room, and show the slides and vids on that?

And quite frankly, that is the market that this tablet is aimed at. Everybody expectant it to be a dud. But I'm not so sure.It may well take off where there is a need to run tightly integrated software that ties into corporate environment, but which is not so mainstream that it would attract lots of developers wanting to port it to RT, or it is so customized or so proprietary that there is simply no market for an RT port.

Of course, lots of C++/C# apps are source level portable to RT via a simple recompile

If the pressure sensitive stylus works well then I will want one of these. I am truly fed up with all the paper wasted just so I can make temporary notes on a piece of paper. It will be interesting to see what integration with MS 360 offers, or whatever it is called.

This is the big thing. I would love a tablet that I can take real notes on. Especially one where I can enter mathematical notes.

Every tablet I have looked at has been very bad to taking notes on. They just don't have the accuracy required. This tablet even runs a full windows of windows which means I could take notes and still use applications like matlab and excel.

Of course, lots of C++/C# apps are source level portable to RT via a simple recompile.

Very few apps are, actually. Remember that most traditional desktop APIs are off-limits to third-party apps on RT (unless you unlock it, which is unsupported and can go away with any update). Yes, Store apps can run C++ and C#. But.NET for C# is a very trimmed down profile compared to full desktop.NET (heck, it doesn't even have System.Data anymore!), and C++ has the entire standard library working, but little else. If your app had any kind of GUI, you'll have to rewrite that almost entirely (unless it wa

News Flash: Business learned long ago that there are different tools for different jobs.

That is not even remotely true, it generally buys thousands of identical large dull brand boxies, of the lowest specifications, and may or may not roll out a new OS or browser every 10 years...and to be perfectly honest would prefer working on one of those to that. I think business is the wrong market for this product.

You obviously have very little business experience. I've worked in several large enterprise environments and what you're stating is blatantly false in my experience. Typically there will be a standard desktop, a tower system, a couple of laptop models, and OS updates happen when ready, meaning once they've been certified to run said organization's software.

I already have clients rolling out Windows 8. I would not be surprised to see the Surface Pro sell reasonably well in the enterprise.

After the stunning success of the original Surface tablet, Microsoft releases its successor

The Surface Pro will likely be much more successful than the RT. It runs win32, win64 and Modern UI apps natively & seamlessly integrates with Active Directory - Key features for business that the RT can't do...

Every time I see the phrase "Microsoft Surface", I always think of the table computing platform now called Pixelsense. It's like I always have to do a mental double-take to realize that they are talking about a tablet.

I'm not normally adverse to keeping up to date with technology and lingo, so I'm unsure why, long after I learned that they had renamed it, I'm still always stumbling over that expression and initially associating it only with MS's table computing platform.

An iPad at $400 cheaper and a MacBook Air for only $100 more.
I'm not sure, at this price point, what MS are trying to accomplish. It just reeks of a hurried "oh hell, we must release something to counter Apple'
Well, here's your something.

How clueless can you be? Macbook air has no ethernet port, and surface pro does have a USB 3.0 port. As it runs Windows 8 Pro it supports more hardware than the Macbook air including any optical drive, barcode reader, or digital camera you want to plug into it.

Windows 8 has been out for less than 3 months. A bit early to calling it a failure?

Intel have mandated touchscreens for their lastest Ultrabook spec. So all premium wintel laptops (>$999) will have touchscreens by Christmas.

This will drive down the cost where Apple customers will be asking why their macbook is the only $1000 laptop on the market without touch input. At which point Apple will announce a compatibility layer to run all one's favourite iPad apps inside OS X at WWDC 2014, along with the first

I see what your saying but I don't think the Zune is a good comparison. MS entered the market with Zune way too late, just as it was ending in fact because of the growth of smartphones. Tablets are going to be around for a long time. So even though they are late (to this generation, let's not forget tablet pcs) there is plenty of time for them to catch up with android. Apple isn't the main worry. They'll just keep doing their own thing no matter what. MS *can't* let android take over the majority of their o

Here's what the Surface Pro has over an iPad: Run desktop apps; ability to modify the OS as you see fitHere's what the Surface Pro has over a Macbook Air: Touchscreen

Different tools for different people and different uses. I don't personally want a Surface (Pro or RT), and it certainly has some (pretty big) disadvantages, but that doesn't mean I can't understand what Microsoft is trying to accomplish. I think there's merit to their "Windows anywhere" goal, though it still needs some polishing.

It actually goes a bit further than that, even: the inclusion of the USB port and the support for Client Hyper-V (admittedly, it's a bit short on RAM, but it should be enough to, say, virtualize a Linux system) makes this a much more versatile device. I'd say it's cheaper than the MBA, but that goes away when you add the Touch or Type cover for keyboard and trackpad.

An iPad doesn't run corporate win32 and win64 apps natively. An iPad doesn't integrate with Active Directory for seamless access to network resources. An iPad only has a finger, not a stylus interface. iPad has no USB port.

and a MacBook Air for only $100 more

The Macbook Air has no touch interface and doesn't convert to a tablet / slate for easy use on an airplane in economy with the seat in front of you in full recline.

Panasonic's 20" tablet has certain major advantages for me, as I do architectural-like work. Still, pressure sensitive pen input (if high-dpi accurate) and a 2lb mark is nice. 4 hours life sucks, but it's not as bad as the 2 hours proposed for the panasonic.

The biggest draw for this is a machine that could replace both my iPad and my notebook computer (currently an 11.6" Acer Timeline). The ability to have a real OS and the ability to run real applications (Lightroom, AutoCAD, Bluebeam, Analysis software) is a major plus.

The shortcomings, beyond the middling battery life, include the limitation that you can only get 128GB. While that may seem like enough for a tablet, this is a working machine and really needs have an option to go to 256, if not 512, for serious road warrior data sets (or photogs on the go). And *micro* SD? Slow AND limited capacity. Hard to believe on a tablet this big that SD was a deal breaker in the real estate department. The lack of included keyboard is just money. I have Apple products, so overly expensive SSD and accessories are already commonplace.

Oh, of course it comes with an on-screen keyboard; all versions of Windows have that even in non-touchscreen devices. Grandparent poster was talking about the Touch Cover and Type Cover, which are available but apparently not included.

Except the HP TX2500 series were some of the crappiest laptops I've ever used. We bought 8 of them for the office and within 18 months half of them died. They were hot, the screens were dim, and the stylus was never accurate. Plus, it came with Windows Vista.

I am looking for a Surface Pro clone, more specifically a 16"+ laptop with 2560x1440 resolution, with touch and (a proper, precise, pressure sensitive) pen, and 250GB+ SSD, and i5 or better.
If anyone knows of anything that has at least the resolution and pen, i'm grateful.

Whole disk encryption: BitLocker. It's supported. Connecting to the domain or Exchange server will automatically enable it if the policies mandating such encryption are in place.A login: No fucking shit, it's Win8, of course it has logins and supports password complexity requirements. You're logging in with your domain credentials, after all...Anti-malware: Built into Win8, or you can use third-party if you prefer.Security policies: Again, it's Win8 (Pro, though even RT supports security poli

You're wrong. No one is going to buy a 1,000 device out of their own pockets and then allow corporate security policies and encryption to be put on it.

I do just that thing (except my device is a Thinkpad laptop that cost close to $1500 back when I bought it). The trick is, you create two partitions - one for your own use, with your OS that's not joined to any domain, and another one that runs the corporate image, and is joined to the domain with all restrictions applicable. It's that second partition that is encrypted, and that will be remotely wiped if need be, but it does not affect my personal data.

You do realise it's a fully-fledged computer under the hood, don't you? It's not running a "tablet OS" like Android or iOS. It's running normal Win8 on a normal Intel i5. It's simply a laptop in tablet form. You can install whatever anti-malware, etc, you like. The one caveat is that you can't install any OS you like - the BIOS will make sure of that.