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In addition, I need no reinforcement on my decision to choose this piano, as I've already stated at length in another thread.

That's not the way I remember it!!!

Steve, from the minute I touched this piano it was number one on my list, and there was no number two -- though I played lots of really nice pianos. It was like the "thunderbolt" moment in the novel, The Godfather.

I wonder what % of piano buyers even consider a Steingraeber? I remember when I first heard of Bechstein or Bosendorfer and the prices that were more than my first house and I was incredulous that a piano could be "worth" that much, or that the need for such an instrument would even exist. Of course this was the time when I was weaned off of my Hamilton 243 and was playing my Rhodes and Prophet 5 (which cost a pretty penny) and pianos were "old fashioned". Now, I still can't see ever spending 50K plus for a piano but I realize that at around 30K you can find some very wonderful special instruments. If I had the means and desire I would have no problem spending any amount for the piano that appealed the most to my wants. It really is the aging boomers mid life crisis sports car. A luxury, a splurge and the fantasy of performing concerts in front of thousands playing soaring passages on the wings of your amazing Bosengraeberstein. Your playing ability matters not. Do you really think that the people who buy those exotic sports cars are all race car drivers? Men and their institutions really love to suck the fun out of life by imposing all the rules on "how you should do things", classical music being one of the worst offenders. All I can say say to people who need you to always be grounded in their version of reality; Lighten up Francis.

Have we all lost the love of our instrument that we can condemn one of its devoted servants ? The pianos that this man has provided sustain and nurture artists that NONE of us here can approach.

The video of Shaun Terrill playing the Steingraeber certainly indicates that the piano is special. However, is it totally lost that his playing is simply off the charts in its beauty and naturalness ? However talented the young British pianist is, he could learn MUCH from listening to Shaun Terrill for 30 seconds.

Both the piano and the performance were special, but you're talking about a thread one and a half years ago. The quality of Mr. Tirrell's playing was not lost on members when that Steingraeber video was presented. My own comment was....

The artist. Mr. Tirrell makes Chopin the star. His manner never distracts from the music. His movements are compact with no flamboyance. His playing is secure and confident without being aloof. His phrasing shows an introspective approach that puts Chopin's message first and foremost

Are you suggesting that on this thread there is a specific piano to compliment or its player to praise? I must have missed that.

It's bizarre for you to suggest that because Mr. Tirrell's playing is firs-rate, that the young British pianist who you have no clue about should listen to Mr. Tirrell for 30 seconds and realize his own inadequacy. Rather than quitting this place, you should untangle your wiring.

#2032006 - 02/12/1305:23 PMRe: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano
[Re: Norbert]

pianoloverus
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19841
Loc: New York City

Originally Posted By: Norbert

Quote:

I wonder what % of piano buyers even consider a Steingraeber?

Enough that their productions is sold out now for months ahead of time. In fact Udo told me a while back they just had their best year in history. So, somebody out there is buying.

By the way, several other top tier makers experiencing same.

Norbert

And all of them have extremely limited output.

If a maker produces a few hundred pianos per year and sells them all that certainly doesn't imply many are considering the purchase of that make piano or have even heard of that make piano. I'd guess that less than 10%(probably much less than 10%) of North American buyers have even heard of pianos like Steingraeber, Estonia, Fazioli, Sauter, and other Tier 1 and Tier 2 makes.

A piano's high quality in no way implies many are considering the purchase of that piano. I don't think there are even 10 Steingraeber owners among the 50,000 members. The real world is not like the few hundred regular posters at PW Piano Forum where there is much talk about the super high end pianos.

Not sure how to copy part of a post (above) to replay to it, so I will just sum up that there was one post that suggested one should not buy a piano that is way above one's performing ability. Not sure if that was a joke or not. I know that my performing ability will never be equal to the potential of my Mason-Hamlin BB, but I think the piano has helped me improve a lot in just a few months. If I chose a piano that matched my ability, I suppose I would have to check the junkyards.

... I wound up at a fancy party in San Marino. The kind of party where waiters bring drinks and hors d'oeuvres around to you. There was a beautiful Steinway B there. I asked the host, and he said nobody in the house played. ....

Not sure how to copy part of a post (above) to replay to it, so I will just sum up that there was one post that suggested one should not buy a piano that is way above one's performing ability. Not sure if that was a joke or not. I know that my performing ability will never be equal to the potential of my Mason-Hamlin BB, but I think the piano has helped me improve a lot in just a few months. If I chose a piano that matched my ability, I suppose I would have to check the junkyards.

My goodness! That approach doesn't sound like it would be too rewarding.

Look. I don't know if you're referring to what I posted because I didn't write exactly that. But in case you're referring to my post, hers's what I wrote.

Logic indicates that the time to replace a piano is when the performance capability of the player begins to exceed, match, or at least approach the performance capability of the instrument. It makes sense. The player's capability should, at least theoretically, be on an upward trajectory. The instrument's capability is either static with good maintenance or in decline.

Logic, however, is insufficient to the needs of the luxury goods market, and can be its enemy. Without an illusion of grandeur, the piano upgrade market would be next to nowhere and what's left of the piano industry in the West would be in worse shape than it is.

No reasonable industry person would deny that unit sales are down in the West -- both in Europe and North America. No reasonable industry person would deny that the upgrade market has never been more important than now to its survival. Without the segment of the market that purchases beyond logic, the industry would be in worse shape. So the retailer whose only sale of the month is a high-ticket piano can at least be thankful that the one sale can make his month, but the problem is not the high-tecket piano. The problem is at the grass roots level. There are simply not enough first-time buyers to fuel the product category going forward.

Everyone has his favorite scapegoat for the decline -- everythig from lazy vidoe-addicted youth (totally unfair) to the flood of cheap Chinese pianos (equally unfair). Between those two poit-the-finger choices lie many legitimate factors that relate to a massive cultural shift in the apportionment of leisure time.

Despite the multitude of reasons given, no one has an answer. But whether the high-ticket piano is a mid-life splurge by a baby boomer (as another member put it) really doesn't matter. The fact is that upgrades upon upgrades buy the industry a little more time to come up with an answer. The industry needs that kind of purchase to keep its retailers alive. It needs to sell a piano to someone who already has one. So the high upgrade buyer is a good thing for the industry and that in turn is a good thing for the survival of the instrument as a viable form of cultural expression in the West.

In my opinion, you or anyone else is 100% entitled to a splurge that defies logic. It's your business to spend your money on whatever peaceful means suits you, and it's very difficult to pin a price tag on pure enjoyment. However, upgrade shoppers should be fully cognizant that a high-ticket piano carries no guarantees that you will always enjoy it, that in and of itself it will carry you to the level you aspire to, and that it is a necessary ingredient of the recipe to get there. It isn't. You can go any awfully long way as a pure player with something of the caliber of a U1. You can go yet further with a 25k grand. If you choose to go beyond that, you are not a criminal or fool, but hopefully you are fully aware that it's up to you, not to the piano, to make it work.

I disagreed with the content of this thread for reasons that have nothing to do with people wanting to have a nice piano around to give them pleasure. I sincerely wish you great success on your Mason.

Everyone has his favorite scapegoat for the decline -- everythig from lazy vidoe-addicted youth (totally unfair) to the flood of cheap Chinese pianos (equally unfair). Between those two poit-the-finger choices lie many legitimate factors that relate to a massive cultural shift in the apportionment of leisure time.

No reasonable industry person would deny that unit sales are down in the West -- both in Europe and North America. No reasonable industry person would deny that the upgrade market has never been more important than now to its survival.

Perhaps except China, they seem to have their own economy happening there...

For others, especially top German makers like Steingraeber, Sauter and Grotrian the market is actually up by considerable margin.

Hamburg is reportedly building at full capacity.

Russia and China have become major buyers ordering plenty.Especially the 'most expensive' models.

China is ordering whatever they can while trying at same time to get their fingers into some kind of co-ownership or at least joint ventures.

It's amazing what you can afford if you're willing to bargain creatively, drive an old car, and refinance your house.

But we all have our own priorities. Some people take vacations, others play golf, others buy art or jewelry or fancy cars. Those aren't my priorities.

Sorry, but that's way too simplistic and polemic a contrast.

If you already have all the house that you and your family will be needing for the next 20 years, and can simply refinance it, good on you. Please don't assume that the same holds true for all other home-owners. Some of us mortals are living in a coop that we could afford as first-time buyers, and simply refinancing it will not magically create a decent-sized garden for junior to play in, or space for the work and hobbies we would like to pursue.

Yes, I drive an old car (maintain it myself, mostly), and yes, I can bargain creatively. Our vacations are typically weekend camping trips, one hour from home. Our art is either cheap and/or self-made. And no, I don't plan on ever playing golf, and neither do I plan on ever driving fancy cars. As far as jewelry goes, we keep that at an absolute minimum too.

And even though we could technically afford a $50k piano at this stage, before I ever buy a $50k piano (not to mention one for $100k), I'd much rather put the money into the homestead that we actually want, and keep my modest but decent Ibach upright. (Then, of course, there's the matter of junior's education funds...)

So, pray stop your insinuation that anyone who can't afford a Steingraeber is squandering his money on vacations, golf, art, fancy cars or jewelry. Life isn't as simple as you paint it.

It's amazing what you can afford if you're willing to bargain creatively, drive an old car, and refinance your house.

But we all have our own priorities. Some people take vacations, others play golf, others buy art or jewelry or fancy cars. Those aren't my priorities.

Sorry, but that's way too simplistic and polemic a contrast.

If you already have all the house that you and your family will be needing for the next 20 years, and can simply refinance it, good on you. Please don't assume that the same holds true for all other home-owners. Some of us mortals are living in a coop that we could afford as first-time buyers, and simply refinancing it will not magically create a decent-sized garden for junior to play in, or space for the work and hobbies we would like to pursue.

Yes, I drive an old car (maintain it myself, mostly), and yes, I can bargain creatively. Our vacations are typically weekend camping trips, one hour from home. Our art is either cheap and/or self-made. And no, I don't plan on ever playing golf, and neither do I plan on ever driving fancy cars. As far as jewelry goes, we keep that at an absolute minimum too.

And even though we could technically afford a $50k piano at this stage, before I ever buy a $50k piano (not to mention one for $100k), I'd much rather put the money into the homestead that we actually want, and keep my modest but decent Ibach upright. (Then, of course, there's the matter of junior's education funds...)

So, pray stop your insinuation that anyone who can't afford a Steingraeber is squandering his money on vacations, golf, art, fancy cars or jewelry. Life isn't as simple as you paint it.

I surely did not mean to suggest that life is simple for everyone, nor did I mean to suggest that everyone in the world can afford anything they want merely by economizing.

My intended point was merely that a fair number of people (but undoubtedly not everyone) can afford more piano than they might initially think they can afford if they are willing to adjust existing spending priorities and reallocate existing assets.

Our friend Perri Knize wrote an entire, wonderful book about doing precisely what I've described. Perri's case was similar to others like those you've described. It was a major inspiration for my own piano quest.

In my life, I know people who say that can't afford a piano (or a better piano), but they live in fancy houses, drive big luxury cars, own lots of jewelry, take expensive vacations, etc. My point, again, is that to my ears, a person in such circumstances who says "I can't afford a good piano," is really saying, "A good piano is not high on my priority list."

Those people are obviously well off, but even a fair number of middle-class people can and do stretch budgets for special purposes by juggling their spending and assets. It's not always easy, but by no means is it rare. Many here at PW have done exactly that in order to buy a piano they might initially have thought was beyond their reach.

I wouldn't have considered this analysis particularly controversial, but if I've inadvertently touched a nerve, I do apologize.

However, when visiting these guys over there or talking with them on trade shows, one never gets the feeling of one playing the 'superiority card' over the other.

Don't forget, many of the owners had dads, grand-dads and grand-grand dads that knew and respected each other for a very long time.

Instead, they most typically tell which artist bought pianos from them before [including most recently ..] "where" most of their pianos are being sold right now [not USA] and which top craftsman trained by one factory recently "was stolen" by someone else and is now working for another guy....

P.S. soccer, skiing and sometimes 'hunting' are also favourite subjects...among others of course...

[quote=Mark R.] Our friend Perri Knize wrote an entire, wonderful book about doing precisely what I've described. Perri's case was similar to others like those you've described. It was a major inspiration for my own piano quest.

Keep in mind that the title of that book is Grand Obsession. There's probably been quite abit of paper written in the re-fi market due to that book.

Any financial analyst will tell you that it's not too swift to take money out of an appreciating asset to put into a depreciating one. However, that is somewhat logical, and if you're obsessed, logic will do little good. Better a re-fi than a piano dealer's tasty credit plan.

The mortgage market is interesting in the US right now. People who bought at the wrong time are underwater even as they continue to make on-time payments. They can't even get a line of credit. People trying to become first-time buyers are facing a lot of obstacles as they pay for the corruption and corporate greed of others.

I was in Japan around 1990 when the bubble burst there. A lot of people who gave up on the possibility of buying a home set their sights on more accessible luxury goods. The car makers catered to that, going so far as to create new upscale models designed for a less conservative more risk-oriented younger generation. Golf clubs, sailing clubs, and yacht clubs all saw an increase in membership interest for the next couple of years even as the economy stayed moribund.I had friends living in a rent-control apartment who used their home-purchase savings fund on a Nissan Cima and a small sailboat. That was the equivalent of $60k US at the time. Grand pianos never participated in the spending spree because they're simply too damned big to be practical in the Japanese scale of interior living space.

Around 1995 the reality truly set in. Upscale department stores and luxury goods boutiques began to falter as 100 yen stores (similar to 99 cent stores here) and dedicated used car dealerships began to sprout up. Japanese air carriers, who had never offered mileage clubs, suddenly had one.The % rate of saved income began to climb once again as Japanese who lacked true wealth realized that the cloud over their economy wasn't going anywhere in a hurry. Things are no different there today. People's expectations are lower, their caution sharpened by experience.

T-dot, your financial advice is noted. Besides working in finance for the past 35 years, I also have an intimate understanding of my own financial situation. I would never dream of burdening you with enough knowledge of that situation to allow you to render an opinion that was worth anything at all in my case.

T-dot, your financial advice is noted. Besides working in finance for the past 35 years, I also have an intimate understanding of my own financial situation. I would never dream of burdening you with enough knowledge of that situation to allow you to render an opinion that was worth anything at all in my case.

Thanks all the same, though.

One thing that's become clear here is that you are johnny-on-the-spot to counter any comments that may impinge on your prolonged celebration of your piano purchase on this forum. Please understand that my observations are from a macro perspective and need not intersect with your personal finances in any way. Whatever you, or any individual does with his money in a peaceful way is completely up to you. I'm quite sure I posted that already.

Earlier you put up a link to your owned Steingraeber from a time before it was owned by you. You asked if it was good enough for me, but I had requested absolutely nothing from you. My response was that I had seen and listened to the link, and while I liked the piano a great deal, it was not one of the pianos which are the subject of this thread, It still isn't, and you aren't.

There's plenty of bandwidth here for your celebration to continue. There's also bandwidth for people of different opinions and experiences to share observations that are not dedicated to that celebration. Again, to be blunt, you are not the thread topic.