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Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

I agree with this, but I also agree with Eleazar that at this point I'd rather have his shooting and on-ball defense vs whatever we are calling Augustin's output.

DJ gets beat off the dribble almost as a reflex. Even when he picked Jack's pocket it was on the backside so that had he missed he would have given JJack the clear line right to the lane. I want to have DJ playing if he's playing well, but he's been such a problem so far that I just don't see why they keep working him when instead they could have Lance be out there as the bigger, physical PG on defense and a guy that can threaten on offense more.

Right now DJ is getting crushed on the offensive PnR, he never seems to find a smooth pass into the roll and often gets trapped rather than even finding his man on the PnPop.

BTW, I complained to Gnome about this (and a Warriors fan) during the game. 1st quarter DJ comes in with the game at 20-16 (Ian is hitting his 2nd FT when he enters). This turns into a 10 point deficit within 6 minutes of game, for a total swing of -14. That was nearly the game right there.They pulled it back to down 6 by the time he left, and a small bit of that was DJ finally making a bucket. But less than 4 minutes after he'd left the Pacers had retaken the lead.

Ultimately they slumped to end the 1st half and got really tired/sloppy in the 3rd, but maybe if you keep that -14 closer to -4 then the main unit can get a buffer to withstand the 3rd quarter slump. And I feel like Lance can help with that more.

Definately the turning point of the game. But sadly that seems to be a pattern, DJ absolutely is a big part of that problem but generally its when the bench comes in that we have such a huge dropoff.

Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

I agree with picking a choosing who to bench when one defensively screws up. We all were frustrated when Troy failed one on one defense, but McBob was bench or Tyler because of their failed rotations. So what is worse? Failed rotations or failed one on one?

The rotations helped failed one on one situations. And that will break down no matter how good of a defender you have. Bruce Bowen was a fantasic one on one defender. But if it weren't for the rotations for him to funnel the Kobe's into, I don't think he gets noticed enough.

The rotations are a fail safe. It is the breaks on an elevator system. And if the one on one fails you need the breaks.

So if we all know what was important to JOB, the system. Has Vogel been any different? And not just with benching a player who fails to rotate, but HIS rotations in and of themselves.

He is a young coach with unfamiliar players, and he is showing struggles in covering up their weakness with his system. I want Lance on he court more because I think he will learn to rotate eventually. If Tyler got better, Lance should. Roy struggled early in his career, but now is a fantastic in the paint helpside defender.

Lance getting benched has nothing to do with Bird not being here, his attitude, humbling him (I would buy this more than anything), or any other reason besides that Vogel values help side defense as much as his predecessor

Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

This. Never understood why people want to try to explain away his obvious point guard skills.

It's simple. He can't run a team offense.

I can't tell you exactly what qualities/traits contribute to that. But I can see it. (and I'll say the same thing about Hill.)

But even if he learns that, is point really where we want him? Maybe..in a structure like the Pacers where the point guard's job does seem to be to score. But I'd really like to see Lance in the context of a shooting guard, where there is a point guard and Lance is a secondary play maker. With the thought process of "make plays for myself first, make plays for others second." Because really, Lance's best quality in highschool and his one year of college was scoring. And his ability to score was why Larry liked him.

He's made a huge jump this year. He's certainly been the best bench player and deserves his spot in the starting lineup. But he did it by improving upon the things I, and many other people who criticized Lance, said he'd need to improve on. His shooting and the ability to play within a team concept. But perhaps expecting a larger role in the starting lineup would be too much for him. As much as he has a different mentality than PG, (who I think the idea of a "larger role" has gotten too, without Danny) he may not be able to handle it in terms of the way teams defend him. There's nothing wrong with taking it slow with Lance. That seems to have worked so far.

That all being said, Like Hill as a starting PG because he is the best player capable of playing pg, when Danny returns..Lance may still be the best option at backup PG. I'm willing to wager that Lance learns how to rotate far before DJ learns how to defend at anything. And letting Lance just do what he wants to do with the ball may be a better idea than having DJ try to run an actual offense with that group. Defensively, I don't know that it'll matter that much in the second unit, and offensively it pretty much HAS to be an improvement.

if it doesn't work than it doesn't work, but DJ isn't doing anything, and when Danny returns, someone is going to lose their playing time, and at least Young does something on one side of the ball.

Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

I agree with picking a choosing who to bench when one defensively screws up. We all were frustrated when Troy failed one on one defense, but McBob was bench or Tyler because of their failed rotations. So what is worse? Failed rotations or failed one on one?

Only thing worse than mental mistakes is lack of effort. Physical mistakes a coach can live with

I completely agree. But the next question is where is the best place to learn from the mental lapse? On the court to enhance muscle memory and reaction time or on the bench with an outside perspective and a coach pointing out the rotations?

In other words, the starting lineup at the end of last year worked well enough for us, and it featured Hill as the PG. We had great offensive efficiency, especially out of the first team.

I agree that while Lance will never be a Rondo-like "dictate the offense"-kind-of-player, I believe he still has the proper skill set to play the position. Additionally, he probably has fairly strong potential to be an effective post feeder which is a fundamentally important skill for our offense.

I'm like you... I like more traditional floor general type of point guards. That's not in our cards though... unless we make some sort of dramatic trade that shakes up the core of the team.

Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

I can't tell you exactly what qualities/traits contribute to that. But I can see it. (and I'll say the same thing about Hill.)

But even if he learns that, is point really where we want him? Maybe..in a structure like the Pacers where the point guard's job does seem to be to score. But I'd really like to see Lance in the context of a shooting guard, where there is a point guard and Lance is a secondary play maker. With the thought process of "make plays for myself first, make plays for others second." Because really, Lance's best quality in highschool and his one year of college was scoring. And his ability to score was why Larry liked him.

Aren't we in that position to test that now with GH?

The problem is that we aren't.....every game I have seen him in the Starting Lineup....or playing with the Starters....he's moving around....gets to a certain spot behind the 3pt line....waits for the ball.....and then either takes a shot or passes the ball.

I'd hope that we could do this with Lance in the 2nd unit just to see what would happen since there are less Players to defer to. In all honesty...I'd rather shift Young to the Starting Lineup ( since he's already closing for the team ) and then run with a DJ/Lance/Green/Hans/Mahinmi lineup just to see if the 2nd unit scoring improves.

Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

The problem is that we aren't.....every game I have seen him in the Starting Lineup....or playing with the Starters....he's moving around....gets to a certain spot behind the 3pt line....waits for the ball.....and then either takes a shot or passes the ball.

I'd hope that we could do this with Lance in the 2nd unit just to see what would happen since there are less Players to defer to. In all honesty...I'd rather shift Young to the Starting Lineup ( since he's already closing for the team ) and then run with a DJ/Lance/Green/Hans/Mahinmi lineup just to see if the 2nd unit scoring improves.

I would rather start Lance. Sub him out first then sub him in for Hill when DJ would normally sub in, and forget DJ is even on this team.

Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

Have you seen some of the plays this dude draws up? Any player with any sense wouldn't run a play Vogel draws up. Hopefully West stands up at the end of this season and says " I would like to stay, but i can't play for Vogel." It's not nice, but Vogel is one of those people you can just look at and listen to talk and realize he's just a dumb person. He has no business being an NBA head coach. Maybe he's a nice guy, but he's a bad coach. Not only does he need to do a better job with Lance, he needs to do a better job with the entire team. There's no way this team, even without Granger, should be below .500 with the schedule the Pacers have had.

Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

The problem is that we aren't.....every game I have seen him in the Starting Lineup....or playing with the Starters....he's moving around....gets to a certain spot behind the 3pt line....waits for the ball.....and then either takes a shot or passes the ball.

I'd hope that we could do this with Lance in the 2nd unit just to see what would happen since there are less Players to defer to. In all honesty...I'd rather shift Young to the Starting Lineup ( since he's already closing for the team ) and then run with a DJ/Lance/Green/Hans/Mahinmi lineup just to see if the 2nd unit scoring improves.

Well, I meant when he resumes his role as backup SG.

I'd expect him to be the least involved of the starting five now. He's the fifth best player, and he's the least experienced. (He also struggles a bit in the concept of the offense. As others pointed out, he often needs to be told where to be. A pretty common young player mistake..but that mistake makes it harder for them to be involved.)

Like I said, it might be to the team's benefit to just give Lance the keys to the backup unit. Him and Tyler can have good offensive chemistry and miss defensive rotations together. But then the question would be if it was would be the best thing for Lance's development. (Letting him do what he'd like). He needs to learn offensive structure, and giving him the keys means that he won't.

Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

I just want to interject something here. When I first saw this was another thread about Lance, I was worried that it might turn into a bit of a negative thread. To say it another way, I was worried it would be another "argument" thread because, in the past, discussions about Lance have pushed some "hot buttons" for some of us. Instead, we have all been treated to a thread full of helpful debate, with both sides of the basketball coin being well presented and well thought out. Just another example of the quality of posters on this board.

Lance has the best court vision on the team and his ability to push the ball is second to none.

If he isnít a point guard then Russell Westbrook isnít a point guard (no Iím not trying to say Lance is anywhere close to Westbrook in talent but they share similar abilities).

Now as to how Frank has used him. This is tough because honestly the team is more fun to watch when he is on the floor and active but I also understand that he is still like that wild stallion that every now and then needs to be reigned in. Now where I question Frank is on how he letís certain other members of our team get by with similar problems but doesnít seem to pull them. Iíll give him the benefit of the doubt and say that maybe the other players have had some years to earn a few mistakes.

In all honesty when Danny comes back I wouldnít mind turning the second unit over to Lance and tell him to do his thing. Honestly if Frank insists on playing the bench as a unit then IMO the skill sets should be used as well and that means Lance being the facilitator.

Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

I'd expect him to be the least involved of the starting five now. He's the fifth best player, and he's the least experienced. (He also struggles a bit in the concept of the offense. As others pointed out, he often needs to be told where to be. A pretty common young player mistake..but that mistake makes it harder for them to be involved.)

Like I said, it might be to the team's benefit to just give Lance the keys to the backup unit. Him and Tyler can have good offensive chemistry and miss defensive rotations together. But then the question would be if it was would be the best thing for Lance's development. (Letting him do what he'd like). He needs to learn offensive structure, and giving him the keys means that he won't.

So, we're on the same page here.....I prefer to simply give Lance the keys to the Cutlass Supreme sitting in the garage than the Mustang just to see if he wrecks it or not.

Given the Starting 4 penchant for scoring.....move Young to the Starting lineup and let him do a very poor man's impression of Battier where his role is to simply hound the opposing Wing Players and hitting the spot up 3 from time to time.

The main thing that I want to see is what Lance can do with the ball instead of playing off the ball. He's meant to be more than just a guy that can run around the perimeter waiting for the ball to be passed to him so he can take a 3pt jumpshot.

Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

If Paul George can continue his effectiveness like he showed last night against the Bulls, then I am even more interested in this scenario:

Lance starts
Lance first to be replaced
Lance subs in for Hill
Lance finished with the starters

This allows Lance to run the offense in Hill's absence. It allows us to take more advantage of Lance's offensive skills. It removes DJ's terrible defense from the equation.

If PG continues to step up, then the crying need for more offense with the starters is not there anymore. However, Lance has proven himself incredibly useful, even in stand in the corner mode, with the starters in terms of rebounds, assist/turnover efficiency, solid defense, and a heads-up in the clutch confidence and savvy when it matters at the end of games. So he needs to be in at the end.

The above scenario allows for all those needs. It puts DJ at the end of the stick, but he kinda deserves it.

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"I like our group of people," Ainge told USA Today. "I'm trying to teach them about basketball, and they're trying to teach me about analytics."

Bench struggled in the first half, and our team in general was struggling with our tempo and our pace and our flow. Heís one of our best ďpushĒ guys. We were struggling offensively, and sometimes you just gotta try something different.

A lot of people think that if you can handle the ball, youíre a point guard. Lance can really handle the basketball. A true point guard is a setup guy with the basketball, but also, youíre an orchestrator of five men. Youíre the coach on the floor. Youíre the leader. Youíre not only thinking the game, calling the sets out, but youíre making sure that everybody else is in their spots. Youíre initiating the offense, getting it into a flow, and thatís what differentiates between the one and the two.

Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

That makes me wonder if he sees Lance as a 2, because he doesn't have the experience doing those leader things or if it's because he doesn't think he can.

Maybe Vogel's explanation above explains the dependence on DJ....who I assume he views as more of a "Orchestra Condutor-type" PG....and Lance NOT as a True PG ( as he sees it ) but as a "very good Ball-Handler". Vogel clearly sees a difference between someone that can "handles the ball very well" and a "PG that leads and directs the traffic on the court".

I really prefer to see how Lance can do running the show with Green/Young/Hansbrough/Mahinmi...but if that is not an option....then I'd like to see how DJ/Lance/Green/Hans/Mahinmi ( the eventual lineup when Granger returns ) will do.

Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

So, we're on the same page here.....I prefer to simply give Lance the keys to the Cutlass Supreme sitting in the garage than the Mustang just to see if he wrecks it or not.

Given the Starting 4 penchant for scoring.....move Young to the Starting lineup and let him do a very poor man's impression of Battier where his role is to simply hound the opposing Wing Players and hitting the spot up 3 from time to time.

The main thing that I want to see is what Lance can do with the ball instead of playing off the ball. He's meant to be more than just a guy that can run around the perimeter waiting for the ball to be passed to him so he can take a 3pt jumpshot.

Sort of. I think Lance is an SG. I think he's be at his best as an SG. But seeing as he does positive things on the court and is capable of dribbling and passing, I'd think he'd be an advantage over DJ.

I wouldn't change the situation now, the starting lineup needs all the offensive help it can get. But when Danny returns, I wouldn't be opposed to trying it. As I said, someone...Lance/Danny G/DJ/Sam is going to lose their minutes when Danny returns..And I'd personally make it DJ.

Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

Sort of. I think Lance is an SG. I think he's be at his best as an SG. But seeing as he does positive things on the court and is capable of dribbling and passing, I'd think he'd be an advantage over DJ.

I wouldn't change the situation now, the starting lineup needs all the offensive help it can get. But when Danny returns, I wouldn't be opposed to trying it. As I said, someone...Lance/Danny G/DJ/Sam is going to lose their minutes when Danny returns..And I'd personally make it DJ.

Wait a sec.....don't we need more consistent offensive scoring options in the 2nd unit...not the Starting Unit?

I'd understand if the drop off ( in terms of contribution ) between Lance and Young is significant....but it's not.

Given that the Starting lineup already has 3 1/2 better scoring options with GH/West/PG/Hibbert ( where Hibbert is the 1/2...until he can get his shooting confidence back ).....I'd think that it would make more sense to have a specific Role Player like Young ( purely as a defensive guy that can at least make 1 out of 3 open 3pt attempts ) in the Starting Lineup instead of having Lance stand at the perimeter waiting for the ball to be passed to him ( where he will either shoot a 3 or pass the ball ).

My thought is that if the 2nd unit will eventually be forced to play DJ at the point and Lance in the 2nd unit.....then shouldn't we see if we can get Lance assimilated to the 2nd Unit as soon as we can just to build Chemistry in the 2nd unit? Doing this would also assess how well Lance would do with another PG ( like DJ ) while filling the role as a SG that can "handle the ball very well".

IMHO..if he is going to end up in the 2nd unit regardless.....then the sooner the better.

Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

My impression from multiple conversations is that Vogel does not see Stephenson as a point guard, now or in the future. However, he's used Lance at the point in the past (during preseason), so I don't think anything is set in stone.

Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

Wait a sec.....don't we need more consistent offensive scoring options in the 2nd unit...not the Starting Unit?

I'd understand if the drop off ( in terms of contribution ) between Lance and Young is significant....but it's not.

Given that the Starting lineup already has 3 1/2 better scoring options with GH/West/PG/Hibbert ( where Hibbert is the 1/2...until he can get his shooting confidence back ).....I'd think that it would make more sense to have a specific Role Player like Young ( purely as a defensive guy that can at least make 1 out of 3 open 3pt attempts ) in the Starting Lineup instead of having Lance stand at the perimeter waiting for the ball to be passed to him ( where he will either shoot a 3 or pass the ball ).

My thought is that if the 2nd unit will eventually be forced to play DJ at the point and Lance in the 2nd unit.....then shouldn't we see if we can get Lance assimilated to the 2nd Unit as soon as we can just to build Chemistry in the 2nd unit? Doing this would also assess how well Lance would do with another PG ( like DJ ) while filling the role as a SG that can "handle the ball very well".

IMHO..if he is going to end up in the 2nd unit regardless.....then the sooner the better.

Yes, right now.

But if you take Young and put him in the starting lineup (and I like Young for what he is) then that has an effect on everyone else. There's no reason to guard Young, making things even more difficult for Hibbert and West, and to an extent Hill and PG. It's not like the Pacers are really scoring well right now.

The bench has been terrible, but they just don't play enough for it to matter. I wouldn't have a problem with just cutting out DJ now, and playing Young and DG more, but I also think that's likely a little too much pressure on Lance at the moment.

Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

Wait a sec.....don't we need more consistent offensive scoring options in the 2nd unit...not the Starting Unit?
I'd understand if the drop off ( in terms of contribution ) between Lance and Young is significant....but it's not.

Given that the Starting lineup already has 3 1/2 better scoring options with GH/West/PG/Hibbert ( where Hibbert is the 1/2...until he can get his shooting confidence back ).....I'd think that it would make more sense to have a specific Role Player like Young ( purely as a defensive guy that can at least make 1 out of 3 open 3pt attempts ) in the Starting Lineup instead of having Lance stand at the perimeter waiting for the ball to be passed to him ( where he will either shoot a 3 or pass the ball ).

My thought is that if the 2nd unit will eventually be forced to play DJ at the point and Lance in the 2nd unit.....then shouldn't we see if we can get Lance assimilated to the 2nd Unit as soon as we can just to build Chemistry in the 2nd unit? Doing this would also assess how well Lance would do with another PG ( like DJ ) while filling the role as a SG that can "handle the ball very well".

IMHO..if he is going to end up in the 2nd unit regardless.....then the sooner the better.

Lance's stats aren't great, but if you look at the overall teams stats they seems to be a lot better offensively when Lance is on the floor. His ability to facilitate and get an occasional easy bucket for a teammate has been more important then it might seem. With that said, I wouldn't mind trying Young as starter if it meant DJ was on the bench, but I got a hard time seeing Frank ever pull the trigger on that. DJ took less money for an opportunity to shine here. He wouldn't be happy if he got benched, and I doubt Frank would rock the boat unless Lance starts acting up. He doesn't seem afraid to punish/discipline him.

Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

Quote Originally Posted by Vogel
I liked what I thought I would see, in terms of the pace picked up, but I think DJ is our best option at backup point guard. Lance is a good push guy, but he’s a ‘2’.

Quote Originally Posted by Vogel
A lot of people think that if you can handle the ball, you’re a point guard. Lance can really handle the basketball. A true point guard is a setup guy with the basketball, but also, you’re an orchestrator of five men. You’re the coach on the floor. You’re the leader. You’re not only thinking the game, calling the sets out, but you’re making sure that everybody else is in their spots. You’re initiating the offense, getting it into a flow, and that’s what differentiates between the one and the two.

I'm sure Frank was trying to be supportive, but at this point, weeks later, DJ still is doing none of the things he listed in that second quote. At least AJ had some leadership qualities. Yes, DJ's made me yearn for AJ.