Wednesday, June 5, 2013

I love Mad Men. And I wish we could all just return to Mad Men times. When men were men and held doors and made dinner reservations and appreciated curvy figures. I feel like a Joan trapped in a Justin Bieber world! How do I find myself a modern Don Draper?

@JanieS He's so cute now with a beard!! Before he just a prick who looked like Nathan Fillion's douchebag former-football-star little brother gone to seed, and now he's all soft and cuddly and stoned and sweet. <3 u Rizzo!

Ugh. I mean, I'm not totally convinced that this is even a real letter, but I'm so sick of people talking about chivalry like it's anything other than men treating women differently because of their gender.

@supernintendochalmers YUP that is what I really wish she'd addressed in this- "Not only is Don Draper a dick, but he is part of a society that treats women as inherently unequal people."
Men don't just open doors for women because they believe they should to be polite, but because they believe women can not or should not open them for themselves.
And if she wants that, she can just wander on over to the rural south and see how much she likes being called "little lady" all the time.

@supernintendochalmers I think a lot of women think they want chivalry when what they really want is common politeness from dudes. Like, no, bro, I don't want you to hold the door for me when my hands are full because you think I'm some delicate flower who needs your big strong manly care and protection, I want you to hold the door for me because I'd do the same for you if your hands were full and it's inconsiderate as hell to go sauntering through a door and let it slam in the face of someone who's going to struggle to open it.

I think women see TV dudes doing stuff like opening doors and standing up when a woman walks in the room, and it triggers their longing for some gorram intentional politeness and consideration for others in our rude, rude-ass, self-absorbed society. I can sympathize. No way in hell do I want to go back to the 60s, but man, if I had a nickel for every time I wished we still had some rules (and training!) about how to act in public and make small-talk and offer condolences and refuse/accept dates and...

@par_parenthese WORD. I actually love the concept of chivalry as a general sort of "be nice to people who are less capable than you," but I get pissy when I am automatically less capable than you just because I have tits.

HOWEVER. I am TOTALLY LESS CAPABLE THAN YOU when I am all dressed up in heels and shit, so please do hold my chair, because seriously, dresses and high-heeled shoes are hard to wrangle, help a girl out.

When fashions come back around to men having to wear high heels while women wear flats, I will return the favor.

Yes! I feel chivalry is also how some men channel their niceness. Like, women are taught to be nice to everyone. But men aren't, so men who are actually nice (as well as men who are condescending bastards) basically learn that chivalry= how you act nicely to people when you're socialized not to be a people-pleaser.

@supernintendochalmers I actually finally created an account on this site just to +1 this: "I'm so sick of people talking about chivalry like it's anything other than men treating women differently because of their gender."

Yes yes yes. I work in a big office building with elevators, and it just bugs the hell out of me when a man closer than me to the open elevator doors just stands there mutely until I walk past him. The fact that it's well-intentioned somehow annoys me even more, because it makes me feel like I shouldn't say something rude in response. I'm thinking about trying out, "Please, after you," but for now I'm sticking to dramatic hesitation and side-eye as I walk past.

(Of course, courtesy, e.g., holding the elevator door for someone of either gender who's right behind you, is A-OK by me.)

* I am old and frail. Please do give me your seat.
* I am pretty fucking pregnant. Please do offer to help me out of the car.
* I am injured. Please take this stuff I am carrying.
* I am extremely sad and/or upset. Please do offer to drive.
* I am inarguably way less strong than you physically, and something heavy needs a-liftin'. Please do offer to wrassle that for me.
* I am dressed in a way that makes it difficult for me to keep my balance and/or maneuver. Please do lend a hand; we must all band together in our sacrifices for fashion.
* I am doing something I do not have any fucking clue how to do, and that you do happen to know how to do. Please do explain how that works.

Times chivalry is unnecessary/insulting.

* We are moving house. You assume I cannot lift anything heavy because you are male and I am female. You are incorrect. Get the hell out of my way, I am carrying a bookshelf here.
* We are going hiking. I am wearing hiking boots and shorts. You really do not need to open the door for me. I got this.
* We are eating tacos at a fast-food joint. I get up to use the bathroom and you stand up courteously. Sit the hell down; we are not at the Viennese Ball.
* You wait for me to enter and exit the elevator first because I have tits, even though it is awkward for everyone involved. Get in the damn elevator and hold the door.
* We are installing cabinets. You try to explain to me how to wield a hammer, because girls always do it wrong. I renovated an entire house with my father throughout my childhood years. Shut the fuck up, you mansplaining asshole.

@Linette This is just to say that this list cracked me up. Particularly "we are not at the Viennese Ball." (My father-in-law does the stand up courteously thing, which, okay, good intentions, but god, so awkward.)

@TheBelleWitch :) I kind of like the standing thing, just because it strikes me as one of the only "chivalry" things that has nothing to do with competence; it's just a mark of respect. Like doffing one's hat. You'd do it for royalty, and apparently for me too, because I am just that excellent? Sure, why not.

But not in informal situations. Then it's weird.

I have strange rules for life, and while I am delighted when someone else agrees with me, I do not expect everyone to know/follow my headlogic.

@Linette YESSSSS seriously we are definitely manners soulmates. I think sometimes it can be hard to parse the respect thing socially, and I think so many dudes have just been told "ladies first ladies first be a gentleman" without being given a reason or a strategy (for example, if the door opens in, you walk through and THEN hold the door, same with an elevator, the closest person enters first and holds the door for everyone else).

@Cerasi Last week I had just gotten out of my car at the bank--I was parked on the far side of the parking lot, so a good 30 yards or more in between me and the bank door. While I'm still by my car, this guy walking out of the bank stops, and stands there with the door open. There is no one else in the parking lot. No one else coming out of the bank. He just stands there waiting for me to walk 30 yards so he can hold the door for me. Not helpful dude. It's awkward, and then you feel obligated to hurry so someone isn't waiting on you, when maybe you didn't want to hurry. In this case, it was so ridiculous I yelled that he didn't have to wait, and then took my sweet time getting to the door.

In my elevator bank at work, all the dudes have decided that women get in and out first. If you don't comply, things get awkward pretty fast, with everyone just kind of shuffling around in the elevator. So I comply.

Now I feel powerful doing it. Not power because I am a Sexy and Weak Lady who needs protection and assistance, but because I kind of fantasize that I get on and off elevators first because I'm better, like royalty. Out of my way! Busy suited lady here.

@Linette This list is magnificent! It always drives me up a wall when a guy will be a good 40-50 feet ahead of me on the way into a building, but when he looks back he realizes "oh a woman coming this way" and then stands there awkwardly holding a door open for the extended period of time in which I am still walking toward the building. JUST GO INSIDE. I can open a door!

@Linette My answer to chivalry debates is always this:
I think people get touchy thinking about men losing "respect" for women and people losing this "politeness." That they'll turn into dicks if they don't hold up these traditional "nice" things. I think my favorite solution is that EVERYONE does nice things for EVERYONE regardless of genders of either parties. Like, don't hold the door open for someone because they have tits that you want to touch, open the door for everyone if you want because it's nice*. I don't get offended if someone holds the door open for me unless they're a d-bag about it. I don't know that they don't do this for their male friends too, because I have friends like that.

@annejumps@twitter I think this is so weird. In the UK it is sort of standard these days for people to hold the door for people behind them no matter their gender. Although I have noticed people doing it less generally and that makes me mad >:(

I agree that it's not cool to do a courteous act just because of a person's gender - likewise I'd get annoyed if women always expected me to hold doors just because I'm a man!

However, a lot of this thread makes me sad. As a guy who always holds doors open for people, regardless of what gender they are, I feel upset to think that every time I happen to hold open a door for a woman that they might be thinking some of the above about me. But I don't want to stop holding doors open for women, or take to reassuring every woman that I would have done the same for a man!

I'm well aware that some men need retraining, but one should be careful of making assumptions or judgements about ANY people, even about those who hold doors :)

P.S. Judging appropriate door holding distance can be tricky, I've got it embarrassingly wrong on occasions. So don't be too hard on those who misjudge it! ;)

@par_parenthese Yeah, I had the feeling that might be true and couldn't deal with the roller coaster, so I got off that ride toute de suite.

My grandmother (single mom, fiercest person I've ever met) was a secretary in that age and it breaks my heart thinking about dipshits treating her badly. Plus, her feet ended up mangled from having to walk to work in impractical heels. It was just a bad scene all around.

Good news is she did rise and earn two masters and eventually got some work that was intellectually demanding, but it took too long.

Her favorite quote to share from when she asked her boss why the male secretaries did the same work but were paid more: "Because they have families to support, sweetheart." AHHHHHHH

@adorable-eggplant Your Grandma sounds pretty amazing. I will say that the women on the show DO get more opportunities as the years and the feminist movement go on, so that keeps it from being totally depressing. But it's never easy for them. It's pretty fascinating to see how differently the female characters deal with the same sexist bullshit. Peggy and Joan are less than ten years apart in age but have completely different coping strategies.

@adorable-eggplant It's one million percent worth the roller coaster to me, but I completely understand that -- I know plenty of folks who have abandoned ship (uh... mixaphorically speaking) because they just couldn't tolerate the sort of relentlessness of it all. I'm so invested at this point that I can't stop watching. Next season will be the last, and then I'll finally know if it's all been worthwhile or not.

@supernintendochalmers She was amazing and fearless in a way that I can only aspire to in my wildest dreams. Before Title VII came around, she would put "Druid" under religious beliefs for job applications. Perhaps because she didn't feel like people had a right to ask or perhaps because she was, in fact, neo-pagan (I wouldn't know though, as she was an incredibly private person as well). Who could be such a mix of stubborn and unflinching? My grandma.

@par_parenthese I've only ever watched with that soap opera "what the hell can happen next to these people" mentality, mostly because there are outrageous plot twists but no one ever seems to actually change and grow as a character, and the twists themselves are always like "mic drop! crazy thing out! let's never talk about this crazy thing ever again!" The aesthetics are fun but I don't get anything real beneath the surface, despite what the show wants me to believe.

@bevrockin I would something else the crap out of Don Draper, but I'd delete his number instantly because I would also be at risk of drunk-texting him for the rest of my life. He is the kind of guy you drunk text.

@Lisa Frank How are Ken, Peggy, Megan and Joan despicable? Joan, maybe because she slept her way to the partnership, but I thought they did a good job of showing why she did it. Not that it's less gross, but I think it was a despicable act, not that she's despicable.

OH and thank god that advice was wonderful!! I was expecting "Be more submissive to snag an alpha-man" and preemptive dry heaving. But this was not that, so kudos! Also, kudos for making me laugh in the first five seconds of skim-reading. Well done.

@anachronistique Yeah I feel like Rihanna made it pretty clear that she wasn't taking any crap. It's victim blaming to act as if she brought it upon herself or needs to learn a lesson.

ETA: Probably a lesson in there for myself about skim-reading because I got to the 'oh, girl' and the trippy Don pitch hilarity and then came back to express my relief at the direction it was headed. Read to the end, eggplant. Read to the end.

I feel like the hidden lede is "appreciated curvy figures". Girl! this modern world is full of guys who appreciate curvy figures. I'm serious. Don't let the fat shaming get you down, and TRUST it wouldn't be better if you were fucking Don Draper, and btw Joan didn't fuck him anyway that was Roger. Who IS more dateable. A smidge.

@RNL I maintain Roger is actually the only guy I would sleep with on the show, because he's just so openly what he is and never tries to pretend otherwise. Don is creepily dead inside and all the young guys who seem nice have hidden shitty aspects, but Roger is just a perfectly awful human being who acts the same all the time in all situations and would be fun for like, a month.

@RNL Yeah, what probably annoys me most about this "letter" is the bitching about modern popular culture: "Everyone likes crappy stuff like Justin Bieber except meeeee". No. There are people out there who share your interests. There are even guys who will treat you nicely and "appreciate your figure." Your time would be better spent looking for them rather than idealizing a (dickish) fictional character.

@RNL Also, back in The Day, your "curvy figure" was appreciated if and only if it was hourglass shaped (and regardless of your natural shape, you almost always wore a corset/girdle/similar contraption), so it's not like the Mad Men era was all about body positivity/acceptance.

@Jinxie Yeah old people gripe about fat girls all the time, way worse than any young person I know.
No, things were NOT body-positive. The Marilyn Monroes and Joans were appreciated because they were hourglasses. Not because they were "real" "curvy" women.

Sigh. Perhaps the letter writer should go sit in the corner with all the gals who say shit like "I'm not a feminist but..." because that's where nostalgia for the 1950s belongs. In the corner. Under a tarp. Where we can't see it.

@adorable-eggplant I just checked-- apparently after you collect 2000/5000/10000 points, you get a $20/$50/$100 coupon for any restaurant you can book on the site? And you usually get 100 points per reservation, so it's mostly a "yay, points!" thing, unless you go out to eat a lot and plan to do so in advance.

Ah yes, the good old days! OH WAIT, FUCK YOU. Things were "good" for exactly one small segment of the population: straight, White men. Black people could barely vote, and women couldn't open fucking bank accounts, among a trillion other horrible things. But let's totally go back! SHUT UP IDIOT, GODDAMNIT.

I think this letter was written by a dude in a sort of hopeful fantasy, like "I'll see if women secretly agree with me and my chauvinistic longing for the days when I could trat them as office decorations!

Also I really dislike Mad Men's "Oh look they're SMOKING and SEXIST we're so AUTHENTIC" and it's just such a pretty looking but ordinary show. The only good thing about it is the fashion style.

@iceberg There was a great article a couple years back on how the show wants to have its cake and eat it too -- they pretend they are shaking their fingers at all this "authentic" awfulness, but really they either want the shock value of a pregnant woman smoking or the freedom to be horribly sexist and claim it's historical.

I could just rant for days about people idolizing Joan, especially in those first couple of seasons. She is admirable, but not enviable. And all the reasons to admire Joan are tinged with misogyny, sexism, body politics and general terribleness that go along with 1960s.

@pajamaralls She just seems exhausted now, doesn't she? Like, she is glad to have gotten somewhere (in spite of the cost) but is just tired of putting up with the shit. She used to be all about the office rules & hierarchy, but broke it all this last ep when she edged Pete out of the Avon meeting. There was no "leaning in" back then.

@pajamaralls Yeah man. I think Joan is a BAMF in so many ways, and that she is incredibly strong because of all the shit she's had to deal with, and that she's managed to make lemonade out of the lemons she's been given, for the most part. I have a real soft spot for her... but her life? Is not enviable at all.

@bevrockin I'm so behind. I need to catch up on season 5 since it's on Netflix now, and then watch 6. I'd done a pretty good job about not spoiling things for myself, though Mad Men isn't as spoiler heavy as some shows.

But from the things I've seen, Joan is so different. I guess I'm glad that she's she exhausted, in a way.

It's a terrific character arc and Christina Hendricks plays the shit out of what she's given. First Season Joan would have sneered at Current Joan for no longer being so silly as to put all her eggs in some dude's basket, like some frumpy girl who has no hope of marrying well.

@par_parenthese I initially didn't like Joan, partially because she was sort of rude to Peggy in the beginning, and a think the fawning over her had a good bit to do with it. But I did have a definite soft spot for Joan.

Doesn't the LW realize that being Joan is the actual worst? Joan follows ALL the rules of being a woman: she's pretty, intelligent but non-threatening, flirtatious, and manages all those pesky unmanly details. She believes in the system, and thinks that if she plays her cards right, she'll marry well and end up in the suburbs. Luckily, the show is pretty realistic and depicts her getting fucked over (raped, married to rapist, having financial problems, divorced with child) despite her playing by the rules. She's proof that women can never actually win in patriarchy.

...Sorry, I've had a few drinks and I am shouty. Not at you! But this is a go-to line for me: nobody wins in the patriarchy, even the people who seem to, because the defining characteristic of patriarchy is to tell people who/what/how they should be, regardless of reality. So, yes, some people benefit in ways that are definitely important and tangible (economically, legislatively, etc), but ultimately, patriarchy is a force like gravity: it weighs everyone down.

I have resisted watching Mad Men FOREVER because I had a friend that wanted to date Don Draper or maybe just be sexually harassed by him and it turned my stomach. Also, am I alone here, or does Jon Hamm just look like a nondescript white guy to anyone else? I don't see the magic, though he is funny as fuck.

@RoxxieRae He has a certain stock-photo handsomeness in my opinion. I suppose in that way the casting is good because his were the looks that were desirable and acceptable back then? There's no danger to his looks, no scruff.

@RoxxieRae It's the moist, sad eyes that get to women, while I am always so put off by his weak little mouth. I think Jon Hamm is an excellent actor and may in fact be a good person in reality, but Don is such a lie -- he acts manly until that doesn't work, then shows his supposed vulnerability when he thinks it'll get him what he wants, and it's all there on his face.

@Lucienne Oh Slattery. Do you kind of get the feeling that despite Don's equipment, Roger would be a better lay? Because he, y'know, actually thinks sex is good instead of bad/currency/paging Dr. Freud?

@Amphora I can get down with that, it's why I have a total ladyboner for John Travolta (that man is a STAR. I never understood until i saw Pulp Fiction), but even though he cracked me up in 30 Rock, and Hamm & Buble is fucking HYSTERICAL, he still just kind of looks like the guy that I would really trust to sell me homeowner's insurance or something.

@flanhoodles Yes, last weekend I went on a date with a guy who said that Betty Draper was close to his idea of a perfect woman and that she was soooo innocent. He threw up some other red flags, but honestly, that one was the reddest.

Like, ok everyone, she's pretty and she gives in to Don, which are barfy reasons to be into her, but also SHE IS HORRIBLE. HORRIBLE. HORRIBLE. You want to date a woman who hates herself and her children? What?

I feel like Mad Men might be one of those things that's ruined by its fans. I adore the show, but that's because it's a really insightful critique of traditional gender roles/ masculinity. Just because Don Draper is handsome and wears nice suits doesn't mean the show is upholding him as a character to be admired. Whenever dudes talk about wanting to be Don Draper or ladies talking about wanting to date him I'm like "Have you ever actually SEEN Mad Men?"

Why do people get this wrong, look, it's simple, play fuck/marry/kill:

1. Fuck Roger-that silver fox looks like fun in the sack, also he is amazingly insightful on acid, so I would drop acid with him and have insightful sex, it would be awesome
2. Marry Ken Cosgrove-he is basically the closest you can get to finding a man who is also a decent human being on that show. I know the whole "prodcut of their time" excuse, and no, I'm not buying it. But so far (I don't have cable, haven't seen the most recent season) he is decent. Also handsome, would probably be cool with a wife who works, ect.

Kill Pete- he is a loathsome little toady, who pressures a young girl into sex (rape), and I just cannot abide by a world with him in it

(I've run out of categories so I have added a few to the traditional FMK format to incorporate more characters)

Ignore Don- dude thinks he is the shit, but he's not, and he treats people that way, and I think straight up ignoring him would be the worst thing you could do to him

Takeoutforacommiseratingdrink Peggy- get her drunk and shoot the shit with her, I can respect the shit she has had to go through

and lastly

Runawaywith Joan- leave Ken, leave Roger, leave them all. I don't want to be her but she is beautimous, and seems to glow with strength and composure. I just want to take her away from it all!

The Justin Bieber reference makes me wonder if the letter writer is not just comparing today's men to Mad Men, but today's young men to Mad Men's 35-and-up men. Which, if so, would make it even more stupid.