Because that along with being a contender cannot be considered together. It has to be one or the other.

# severe sarcasm

Lol, no need for the hash tags. My original point was that the Raptors aren't going to be contenders even if they land Gay... they'll be back to that middle of the road status that all smart basketball people seem to agree is the worse possible place as a franchise.

I can think of $53million reasons spread over the next 3 seasons. But if we are down to debating #25, then that is a start.

I probably shouldn't have put that bit in about trading DD - already a lot of thoughts going on here - but I keep thinking about this:

You have obviously put a lot of thought into this and have made a compelling case considering BC's statements and the rumours out there. Have you figured out (I may have missed it) who the competitors are for Gay? I have heard GSW. I havent heard Houston who have a couple of firsts and ironically Gay was theirs originally and they want some vet help as well. My point is can Memphis be squeezed here? As I have written before my preference is to retain this year's pick and rather make the offer to include next year's first protected to a certain level. That would be more palatable (I have no idea what next year's draft class is like).

You have obviously put a lot of thought into this and have made a compelling case considering BC's statements and the rumours out there. Have you figured out (I may have missed it) who the competitors are for Gay? I have heard GSW. I havent heard Houston who have a couple of firsts and ironically Gay was theirs originally and they want some vet help as well. My point is can Memphis be squeezed here? As I have written before my preference is to retain this year's pick and rather make the offer to include next year's first protected to a certain level. That would be more palatable (I have no idea what next year's draft class is like).

The only 2 teams in the league that can offer Memphis huge cap relief and a decent lottery pick are Sacramento and Toronto.

The only reason Gay is available is because of his contract - as Tim Chisholm said in his article.

Squeezing Memphis will be not including #8 AND DeMar. They won't want Bargnani or Calderon. Ed Davis is expendable as is Kleiza or Johnson.

I can think of $53million reasons spread over the next 3 seasons. But if we are down to debating #25, then that is a start.

That doesn't make sense. Why does Memphis include their #25 pick? They have no reason to. They're looking for cheap,young talent and to fill holes. The #25 pick is part of that solution for them.
So, let me get this straight. Toronto sends their awful package of James Johnson, Ed Davis and a #8 pick for Gay AND the #25 pick? Has anyone gauged what the good folks over at any Memphis fan forums feel? Every single one I've been to feel that in order for any deal to happen, DeRozan and the #8 pick would have to be included as part of the package. I'd be inclined to think so too.

From what I've read over a few Grizzlies forums is that Memphis doesn't necessarily have to trade Gay as they are not over the luxury tax threshold. But if they were to trade Gay, it would be to address any needs they have (2-guard, maybe a SF, backup big, back up PG).

Lol, no need for the hash tags. My original point was that the Raptors aren't going to be contenders even if they land Gay... they'll be back to that middle of the road status that all smart basketball people seem to agree is the worse possible place as a franchise.

Trust there is need for hashtags.

Sure adding Gay alone would do that. But, I don't think you are putting into account that the raptors need to prove they are serious in order to draw other top players.

I like the Chisholm article and completely agree. Davis, JJ, #8, #37 for Gay, #25. Memphis saves over $11M (next season's figures), move up 17 spots in the draft, add an early 2nd round pick and get two good, young, cheap players with pretty high upsides.

If BC wants to get back into the lottery, there appear to be several potential avenues to achieve that. TPE and #56 for Ariza and #10 seems the most obvious, to allow them to acquire Gay and pick just 2 spots lower than where their pick is right now.

I can understand that he may want to win a ring but he has a couple of years left imo to be a top shelf (or somewhat) PG. He can go any of the top teams but at a deep discount (vet min. or at best the exception). I dont know if he has expressed total willingness to do that though.

Agree. Think about it people...all those who say Nash wants a ring. Is a ring worth giving up three years at $10 million a year for? Oh, Nash should sign with Miami for $2 million a year for three years because he wants a ring? Give your head a shake. $30 million or $6 million. Why are we even having this conversation. Like Steve isn't going in the Hall of Fame after two MVPs?

Man, fans posting on boards live in some kind of dream/fantasy world. Steve will go where ever he can get the best deal (give or take a million or two, but not $22m or $27m) to ensure his family is set for the next three generations. Who gives a rats a#s about a freaking ring.

For the life of me, I just can't understand all the warmongering and gnashing of teeth about "scrapping the plan after 1 year." For starters, don't give me this bull about "we've only been rebuilding for 1 year." We have been crap and we have been accumulating the according dividends of crappyness for several years now.

Secondly, what is meant by scrapping the plan?? As Chisholm notes (in a fantastic article btw -- thanks Matt) you HAVE to make a move at some point, you just have to. There is no such thing as a purely sedentary team that just accumulates lottery pick after lottery pick indefinitely until it all of a sudden jumps from the slum of the league to the conference title. There is a middle ground, and unless you are the Miami Heat or the Boston Celtics you MUST traverse it. Hence acquiring a significant upgrade in talent by leveraging something other than, or in addition to, talent (its worth noting, anecdotally, that there is a reason why BC is always so damn smug when he talks about his flexibility this off-season, and the assets he has to work with -- guess what? They're one and the same thing. As nice as it is to think of JJ and Amir as significant assets, they really aren't; it's our ability to eat up salary that is currently most valuable to other teams - read: Memphis.)

Does improving to an average or above average team with the acquisition of Gay (I'll leave it at just Gay for the sake of argument - needless to say though, his acquisition certainly doesn't preclude more moves) mean we are doomed to mediocrity? I certainly don't think so. First, each of our core players has room to improve over the next few years, second, our draft picks aren't going anywhere, so if we are in fact middle of the pack and not superb next year, we still get a reasonable asset - some of you are making it out to sound like we're creating a self-imposed life long ban on drafting by trading ONE draft pick. Third, while we won't have tons of money to sign people next year (not that we'd have tons if we stayed the course either, things get interesting for everyone next year cap-wise) we'll have enough (e.g. MLE), but more importantly, we'll have a team worth coming to. No one wants to sign with a team gunning for their 7th consecutive lottery pick.

Ultimately, right now we have a chance to leverage a temporary asset for something real and significant, partly due to our circumstances and partly due to Memphis'. If we let this pass, I think we'll find ourselves in a much worse position, not just in the short term, but the long term as well.

To those of you wanting to "stay the course": what is the course? Not just in method, but in result. What do you realistically see for this team's future if it doesn't make a move this summer? Personally, I see something like the Kings or Wolves, with a little more discipline and a little less talent, and it doesn't look pretty.

I like the Chisholm article and completely agree. Davis, JJ, #8, #37 for Gay, #25. Memphis saves over $11M (next season's figures), move up 17 spots in the draft, add an early 2nd round pick and get two good, young, cheap players with pretty high upsides.

If BC wants to get back into the lottery, there appear to be several potential avenues to achieve that. TPE and #56 for Ariza and #10 seems the most obvious, to allow them to acquire Gay and pick just 2 spots lower than where their pick is right now.

"The Lakers will also receive the Grizzlies second round draft choice in 2010. In exchange Memphis will receive forward Kwame Brown, guard Javaris Crittenton, guard Aaron McKie (who the Lakers signed earlier today), the draft rights to Marc Gasol and first round picks in 2008 and 2010."

this gay deal should get done for 2012, 2014 first round picks and salary matchers if history is any factor. it would be hard to argue that our number 8 is less valuable then even both of those lakers picks.

From what I've read over a few Grizzlies forums is that Memphis doesn't necessarily have to trade Gay as they are not over the luxury tax threshold. But if they were to trade Gay, it would be to address any needs they have (2-guard, maybe a SF, backup big, back up PG).

As soon as Memphis makes the qualifying offers to Mayo, Speights, and Arthur, they are over the luxury tax.

They have $63.4M tied up in 9 players. They can't even give a full MLE and fill out the roster with minimum contracts without going over the luxury tax.

From what I have read from Memphis blogs, many have little to no understanding of the salary cap vs. luxury tax and seem to be in denial about the comments made by Heisley regarding not being in the luxury tax business.

Also, taking back nearly $12M less in salary gives Memphis the opportunity to acquire said pieces in free agency and extend their own players that fill some of those needs as the roster currently stands for '12-13.

That doesn't make sense. Why does Memphis include their #25 pick? They have no reason to. They're looking for cheap,young talent and to fill holes. The #25 pick is part of that solution for them.
So, let me get this straight. Toronto sends their awful package of James Johnson, Ed Davis and a #8 pick for Gay AND the #25 pick? Has anyone gauged what the good folks over at any Memphis fan forums feel? Every single one I've been to feel that in order for any deal to happen, DeRozan and the #8 pick would have to be included as part of the package. I'd be inclined to think so too.

I don't know. I'm not in the possible negotiations. It is not like Memphis is not getting considerable financial relief. Maybe Toronto throws in $3M or 2nd round pick(s) or a future 1st. Maybe Memphis saves another guaranteed contract on a player or pick they might not necessarily want to begin with. #25 was brought up in these threads and it was also mentioned by Chisholm - probably got in my head there. Alex Kennedy at HW.com was talking about many non-lottery teams looking to dump their pick due to the guaranteed contract and the implications with the new CBA. Memphis is a in a win now mode - very rarely does a #25 pick help win now.

Actually I have read some Memphis blogs. I even made a few posts a last week to gauge interest before I wrote up the original post in this thread - which was done before this hit the media in the last 2 days.

I don't disagree that DeRozan should be included in any deal along with #8. However, Memphis is not negotiating from a position of power. Yes they have Gay. Yes BC wants Gay. But BC has nearly $12M in cap space and Memphis wants the financial relief. Also DeRozan is up for an extension this year and signing him puts them back in the same situation next year with the luxury tax implications assuming they use cap space to fill their needs of PG, back up bigs, a new SF, and 3 pt shooting/bench scoring. Finally, DeRozan and Allen (who is crazy and one of the best contracts in the league) would be a nightmare for spacing given that Memphis' offence without Gay would be low post centered with Randolph and Gasol.

Sure adding Gay alone would do that. But, I don't think you are putting into account that the raptors need to prove they are serious in order to draw other top players.

Adding Gay would give further enticement for nash.

Bottom line:

Gay is not the puzzle. He is a piece.

I maintain that Nash is going to make a decision to come to Toronto completely independent from what Gay decides to do. I can almost promise you that.

Secondly, drawing other top players becomes harder to do when you're squandering your cap room to bring in a guy that has never made the all star team but will be taking $20 million by the time his deal is done.

Everyone came to the consensus that the Raptors were better off not paying Bosh, a fringe superstar at the very best, but yet you want to acquire a lesser player (a fringe all star in this case) and pay him even more money? Maybe we have vastly different opinions on the type of impact that Gay will have here but that seems silly to me.

Like I said earlier, there's a reason that Rudy Gay is available in the first place and it's because the Grizzlies have realized that they grossly overpaid for him. I don't want the Raptors to ship off a bunch of assets just so they can be the ones to have that dubious honour next.