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Re: Kyōraku Shunsui vs Hirako Shinji

I don't think shinji using his mask against grimmjow means anything. For one thing, even without mask shinji showed he could keep up with grimmjow. He was at the very least equal. With mask the difference grew even larger. Even if shinji did not hold back, we did not see him being pushed back, he had a great advantage for the entire fight. That is jardly an argument in favor of shunsui.

Re: Kyōraku Shunsui vs Hirako Shinji

Originally Posted by kkck

I don't think shinji using his mask against grimmjow means anything. For one thing, even without mask shinji showed he could keep up with grimmjow. He was at the very least equal. With mask the difference grew even larger. Even if shinji did not hold back, we did not see him being pushed back, he had a great advantage for the entire fight. That is jardly an argument in favor of shunsui.

Shinji using his mask against Grimmjow = Shinji at full power/speed as far as this tournament stands.

What significance does it hold? Factor in the fact that he was going up against an injured-one-armed unreleased 6th Espada and needed to put on his mask to deal with it.

Shunsui on the other hand = on par with the first Espada. A massive power/speed difference.

Heck, Kenpachi with all of his "supposed" power met his match against the 5th Espada.

Re: Kyōraku Shunsui vs Hirako Shinji

I really like to see the conversation when both sides throw their opinions and at least one of them call the other fanboys.
It's really a good argument.))

Actually people can have opinion or not. At least I would say that Shunsui has more fits according to the manga. And Shinji only has hype from people who developed his Shikai.
Shinji believed that his Shikai is hax, but it was prooved by Aizen that it isn't. I do believe that such a game would be good against Vice Captains and sych people like Ichigo, but any Captain of Byakuya's level and higher will easily understand how it works and Shinji isn't the person that can take person with one hit KO, cause he doesn't have any strong attack.
Shinji needed Mask to try to injure half-dead Grimjow without one arm and Shinji wasn't hoilding back, so we can assume that it was his full power while sealed, so that was his strongest attack we've seen...

Shunsui wins this. Yama was never prooven wrong in his words and he stated that Shunsui and Ukitake were the strongest Shinigami that graduated from Shinigami Academy (excluding Aizen for obvious KS reasons), so it includes Shinji, Urahara, all the Vaizards and so on.

Re: Kyōraku Shunsui vs Hirako Shinji

Shinji using his mask against Grimmjow = Shinji at full power/speed as far as this tournament stands.

What significance does it hold? Factor in the fact that he was going up against an injured-one-armed unreleased 6th Espada and needed to put on his mask to deal with it.

Shunsui on the other hand = on par with the first Espada. A massive power/speed difference.

Heck, Kenpachi with all of his "supposed" power met his match against the 5th Espada.

Yamamoto wasn't joking when he labeled Shunsui as a legend.

How long do you think that fight lasted? How do we even know that shinji used his full speed? The fight was completely one sided and shinji did not even use his speed when he put his mask on, he just overpowered grimmjow, forced him back and fired a cero. The anime made the fight a little longer but as it stands we have no logical reason whatsoever to believe shinji would be blits by shunsui. His fight against in grimmjow does not even provide circumstantial evidence for such a thing. The fight was far too one sided to even suggest shinji had any degree of trouble.

Re: Kyōraku Shunsui vs Hirako Shinji

Originally Posted by kkck

How long do you think that fight lasted? How do we even know that shinji used his full speed? The fight was completely one sided and shinji did not even use his speed when he put his mask on, he just overpowered grimmjow, forced him back and fired a cero. The anime made the fight a little longer but as it stands we have no logical reason whatsoever to believe shinji would be blits by shunsui. His fight against in grimmjow does not even provide circumstantial evidence for such a thing. The fight was far too one sided to even suggest shinji had any degree of trouble.

I suggest that you read the chapter again. Shinji was on the run and kept dodging a half-dead Grimmjow's attacks until he pulled out his mask. Shinji wasn't holding back. As I had said multiple times, Masked Shinji is 5th-6th Espada level at best when he is at his base. As for his shikai, it's a good toy for vice captain level Shinigami, senior captains such as Aizen/Shunsui will treat it as a joke.

Also, a reckless charging Grimmjow already demonstrated that if you charge at Shinji from the start, the latter will not have the time to spin his sword and invoke the smell (a lengthy process).

Shunsui on the other hand is on par with the 1st Espada while sealed. That's all you need to know.

Re: Kyōraku Shunsui vs Hirako Shinji

Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon

I really like to see the conversation when both sides throw their opinions and at least one of them call the other fanboys.
It's really a good argument.))

Actually people can have opinion or not. At least I would say that Shunsui has more fits according to the manga. And Shinji only has hype from people who developed his Shikai.
Shinji believed that his Shikai is hax, but it was prooved by Aizen that it isn't. I do believe that such a game would be good against Vice Captains and sych people like Ichigo, but any Captain of Byakuya's level and higher will easily understand how it works and Shinji isn't the person that can take person with one hit KO, cause he doesn't have any strong attack.
Shinji needed Mask to try to injure half-dead Grimjow without one arm and Shinji wasn't hoilding back, so we can assume that it was his full power while sealed, so that was his strongest attack we've seen...

Shunsui wins this. Yama was never prooven wrong in his words and he stated that Shunsui and Ukitake were the strongest Shinigami that graduated from Shinigami Academy (excluding Aizen for obvious KS reasons), so it includes Shinji, Urahara, all the Vaizards and so on.

Prove to me that Shunsui has Aizen's analytical skill. Prove that Aizen didn't use KS vs Shinji. I don't know how you can say that any Captain above Byakuya's level can fight under Sakanade's influence as though nothing has happened. The amount of mental processing required before each movement would, even were they a quick thinker, slow them to such an extent that Shinji could easily get an attack in.

Regarding Shinji vs Grimmjow, do you seriously think he NEEDED the mask? If you had read earlier posts you would see plenty of reasons other than necessity which would cause him to use the mask. To say he needed it is practically equivalent to saying Yama needed RJ vs Hallibel's fraccion.

And as for for Yama's words: 1) He can't know everything about every Shinigami. 2) He hasn't seen Shinji for 100 years, and hasn't assessed the power augmentation of a Hollow Mask.

Re: Kyōraku Shunsui vs Hirako Shinji

Originally Posted by ShootToKill

Prove to me that Shunsui has Aizen's analytical skill. Prove that Aizen didn't use KS vs Shinji. I don't know how you can say that any Captain above Byakuya's level can fight under Sakanade's influence as though nothing has happened. The amount of mental processing required before each movement would, even were they a quick thinker, slow them to such an extent that Shinji could easily get an attack in.

Regarding Shinji vs Grimmjow, do you seriously think he NEEDED the mask? If you had read earlier posts you would see plenty of reasons other than necessity which would cause him to use the mask. To say he needed it is practically equivalent to saying Yama needed RJ vs Hallibel's fraccion.

And as for for Yama's words: 1) He can't know everything about every Shinigami. 2) He hasn't seen Shinji for 100 years, and hasn't assessed the power augmentation of a Hollow Mask.

1) Shunsui deduced that Starrk's guns could do more than fire ceros. A prove of his intellect.
2) Aizen didn't use KS against Shinji because it was neither shown nor mentioned in the manga: innocent until proven guilty

Aizen treated Sakanade as a joke. Shunsui will do the same ASSUMING that he lets Shinji stand there and spin his sword for a minute or two (see Grimmjow fight).

Obviously, Shinji needed mask against a half-dead Grimmjow for one simple fact: Shinji was on the run; he was dodging Grimmjow's attacks and then was forced to pull out his mask: gaining a massive boost in power and speed.

Re: Kyōraku Shunsui vs Hirako Shinji

Originally Posted by LucyBenard

I suggest that you read the chapter again. Shinji was on the run and kept dodging a half-dead Grimmjow's attacks until he pulled out his mask. Shinji wasn't holding back. As I had said multiple times, Masked Shinji is 5th-6th Espada level at best when he is at his base. As for his shikai, it's a good toy for vice captain level Shinigami, senior captains such as Aizen/Shunsui will treat it as a joke.

Also, a reckless charging Grimmjow already demonstrated that if you charge at Shinji from the start, the latter will not have the time to spin his sword and invoke the smell (a lengthy process).

Shunsui on the other hand is on par with the 1st Espada while sealed. That's all you need to know.

When exactly was shinji on the run? That never happened. It's absurd to suggest that dodging an attack means shinji is on the run specially if not a single of grimmjow's attacks was shown to be remotely close to connecting. Heck, shinji fought while trying to keep damage to the place at the minimum. I also doubt shunsui will have a similar ease to aizen when dealing with shinji's shikai. For one thing, aizen already proved he is at least a level above shunsui. For another, aizen has plenty of experience with illusions. Aizen is also among the smarter dudes around. Do we have any reason AT ALL to suggest shunsui is nearly as fast as aizen? Not really. Do we have any reason at all to suggest shunsui has 1% of aizen's smarts? Lol no, it'd be easier to argue the opposite. Do we have any reason at all to suggest shunsui's understanding of illusions of any form even vaguely resemble that which aizen has? Not in the least.

Originally Posted by LucyBenard

1) Shunsui deduced that Starrk's guns could do more than fire ceros. A prove of his intellect.

Starr's guns could not do anything but fire cero though. Starrk for whatever reason actually got rid of them before he used the wolves (the wolves did not come from the gun, they came from starrks black piece of cloth or whatnot). Now, not only was shunsui wrong about the guns capacity to do anything else but cero but is the assumption itself much of a feat? Cero is a generic hollow ability, it would make sense for shunsui to assume starrk's special ability is more than cero.

Last edited by kkck; April 07, 2011 at 02:11 AM.
Reason: Automerged Doublepost

Re: Kyōraku Shunsui vs Hirako Shinji

Originally Posted by kkck

When exactly was shinji on the run? That never happened. It's absurd to suggest that dodging an attack means shinji is on the run specially if not a single of grimmjow's attacks was shown to be remotely close to connecting. Heck, shinji fought while trying to keep damage to the place at the minimum. I also doubt shunsui will have a similar ease to aizen when dealing with shinji's shikai. For one thing, aizen already proved he is at least a level above shunsui. For another, aizen has plenty of experience with illusions. Aizen is also among the smarter dudes around. Do we have any reason AT ALL to suggest shunsui is nearly as fast as aizen? Not really. Do we have any reason at all to suggest shunsui has 1% of aizen's smarts? Lol no, it'd be easier to argue the opposite. Do we have any reason at all to suggest shunsui's understanding of illusions of any form even vaguely resemble that which aizen has? Not in the least.

1) Did you actually read the chapter?

Shinji was on the run because HE dodged a SERIES of attacks from a half-dead Grimmjow (not one, not two, but a few of them). Then Shinji is forced to pull out his mask to contend with a half-dead Grimmjow.

LOL. What makes you think that Shunsui is dumb as a rock? He already demonstrated his intellect and see-through abilities by correctly deducing the Starrk's guns had more to them than simple cero.

Not to mention, the Grimmjow fight is a perfect example in which a charging-in opponent had showcased that Shinji would be rendered unable to invoke his smell since it requires a pretty lengthy amount of time to prepare and release.

It is clear that Shunsui is more powerful, faster, more adept as a fighter, cunning, and outright better.

Re: Kyōraku Shunsui vs Hirako Shinji

Originally Posted by ShootToKill

Shinji could have worn his mask for a number of reasons - the two which predominantly come to mind are
1) To make things ridiculously easy for himself so he would be able to put Grimmjow in his place with the least possible effort - an example of this is Yama using Ryujin Jakka against Hallibel's Fraccion, or Aizen using KS against Hallibel. Did they need to? No. Did it make their lives easier? Sure.
2) As a gesture to show the enemy which side the Vizards were on (Ichigo's) - hence using the mask to actually display who and what he was.

But I digress - Shinji easily overpowered Grimmjow so there is no way they are "equal". I might as well say Shunsui overpowered Chad, that makes them equals

+1

What's funny, LucyBenard hasn't addressed your points but instead ignored them and basically repeated the same thing in his next post even though his arguments (more like 1 argument) have been countered by you :].

Originally Posted by LucyBenard

1) Shunsui deduced that Starrk's guns could do more than fire ceros. A prove of his intellect.(...)

rotfl
His guns could be used to crack nuts open or scratch his back for all Shunsui knew, there was nothing that could indicate it wasn't it's only ability besides that he was #1 espada and it looked too easy. Any person of even below average intelligence could deduce that. And actually it was more of a guess than deduction.

Re: Kyōraku Shunsui vs Hirako Shinji

I have read the chapter. I just never saw any frame which had shinji on the run. I also never said shunsui was as dumb as a rock. I just don't think he would hold a candle to aizen in that department.

Quote:

Not to mention, the Grimmjow fight is a perfect example in which a charging-in opponent had showcased that Shinji would be rendered unable to invoke his smell since it requires a pretty lengthy amount of time to prepare and release.

If that sort of logic was in any plausible way applicable to bleach then the manga could have 1000 chapters and we still would not have seen a single shikai, let alone a bankai or even worst, a resurreccion.

Re: Kyōraku Shunsui vs Hirako Shinji

Originally Posted by Goral

rotfl
His guns could be used to crack nuts open or scratch his back for all Shunsui knew, there was nothing that could indicate it wasn't it's only ability besides that he was #1 espada and it looked too easy. Any person of even below average intelligence could deduce that. And actually it was more of a guess than deduction.

Is that so?

Then how about the databook: One of Shunsui's highest rated areas: Intellect: 90/100

Re: Kyōraku Shunsui vs Hirako Shinji

ShootToKill

Quote:

Prove to me that Shunsui has Aizen's analytical skill. Prove that Aizen didn't use KS vs Shinji. I don't know how you can say that any Captain above Byakuya's level can fight under Sakanade's influence as though nothing has happened. The amount of mental processing required before each movement would, even were they a quick thinker, slow them to such an extent that Shinji could easily get an attack in.

That's the spirit.)
1. I really don't understand why everyone continue to assume that everyone in Bleach exept Urahara and Aizen are imbeciles. They are pretty much intellectual, at least the high tier Captains like Yoruichi, Shunsui, Ukitake and middle tier like Byakua. Hell, even Kenpach with his special battle instincts managed to pull a win against bigger trick like Tousen's Bankai.
2. When you brush your teeth and look in the mirror you don't need to be Einstein.
3. You prove me wrong with actual facts from the manga.

Quote:

Regarding Shinji vs Grimmjow, do you seriously think he NEEDED the mask? If you had read earlier posts you would see plenty of reasons other than necessity which would cause him to use the mask. To say he needed it is practically equivalent to saying Yama needed RJ vs Hallibel's fraccion.

It's clearly different case. Shinji really said that he wouldn't hold back. And even this attack wasn't enough to finish half-dead Grim without one hand. And it was supposed to be the strongest Shinji's attack.
Also we do know how strong is Yama, but Shinji is not that strong as people want him to be. He practically had no fits in the manga, but people made him that strong developing his skills for him.

Quote:

And as for for Yama's words: 1) He can't know everything about every Shinigami. 2) He hasn't seen Shinji for 100 years, and hasn't assessed the power augmentation of a Hollow Mask.

Every Shinigami has his limits and Shinji supposedly hitted his even before Hollowfication, so even with it Shinji might have not gotten that much an upgrade. Vaizards Hollowfication wasn't even as strong as Ichigo's.
Also it isn't as Yama knows everything, but it is like Kubo speaks trough Yama and states facts.

Re: Kyōraku Shunsui vs Hirako Shinji

^The stats are not absolute in the least, it is just relative to shunsui. In that sense, having a 90 in intellect does not mean he is as smart as anyone else who has 90. He could have 90 in his intellect and still be a moron for the most part while someone having a mere 40 could be smarter than shunsui.

Re: Kyōraku Shunsui vs Hirako Shinji

Originally Posted by LucyBenard

1) Shunsui deduced that Starrk's guns could do more than fire ceros. A prove of his intellect.

Guessed is more the word. Deduced implies deduction - he saw that Starrk was a top 3 Espada and that the guns were his only weapons, so it's natural that someone of his caliber would have an ability beyond firing ceros. I really don't get why you regard this as such an intellectual feat.

Originally Posted by LucyBenard

2) Aizen didn't use KS against Shinji because it was neither shown nor mentioned in the manga: innocent until proven guilty

Your rules, not what is written in stone. Besides, if you don't like assumptions, let's not "assume" that Shunsui will be able to figure out and counter Sakanade when absolutely nothing indicates that he would be able to.

Originally Posted by LucyBenard

Aizen treated Sakanade as a joke. Shunsui will do the same ASSUMING that he lets Shinji stand there and spin his sword for a minute or two (see Grimmjow fight).

Shunsui isn't Aizen - not in terms of power, not in terms of intellect. As I said before, where do you get the "minute" from, which has now become a "minute or two"?

Originally Posted by LucyBenard

Obviously, Shinji needed mask against a half-dead Grimmjow for one simple fact: Shinji was on the run; he was dodging Grimmjow's attacks and then was forced to pull out his mask: gaining a massive boost in power and speed.

Wow. Look at that: Base Shinji with Mask is on par with Bankai Ichigo with Mask

Continually saying that Shinji with mask is equal to Grimmjow is basically trolling. Nowhere did Shinji seem in trouble before putting on the mask, and after the mask he was able to take on Grimmjow as though he was nothing, so no - I'm not going to accept this statement as anywhere near valid.