Because I don't base my entire life on it. I'm not a very good Christian in that respect.

Does being a "good Christian" matter to you at all?

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I know my arguments don't stand up. This is why I don't argue.

This seems like a...weird position to take.

Do you ever argue with yourself? I know I do.Have you had this argument (e.g. does god exist) with yourself?The implication seems to be that your view/belief is not of sufficient consequence as to warrant consideration for the truth-value of said view/belief.

Am I stretching here?

------------------Also, nogodsforme, please tell us that screwtape is correct and you meant Benny Hinn. I would hate to think of you as a Benny-Hill-Hater...

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"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

I think I went through a phase like that during my deconversion. I was in one of those places where I did not want to abandon my beliefs, but I could not justify or rationalize them. I was at the point of no return, but I think I wanted some sort of option to return. It's only when I decided that I couldn't return that I finally got past that hurdle. It wasn't much longer before I realized that I didn't want to return. The process of letting go was not an easy one, but once I did let go things went pretty smoothly.

Because I don't base my entire life on it. I'm not a very good Christian in that respect. I'm into the serving others and doing unto others as you would yourself part. There is a lot of wisdom even if it is made up. There is also made up wisdom in Shakespeare and Harry Potter and other fiction. But the hellfire and condemnation not so much. I know my arguments don't stand up. This is why I don't argue.

What need of these 'arguments' (and the beliefs that stand behind them) do you have at all (even if not displayed)? Your statements quite clearly show that you're not a Christian (i.e. - a follower of Christ in any traditional sense). So why even bother? Picking and choosing bits and pieces from 'over here' and 'over there', from what makes you "feel" good isn't a reliable way to find truth. It shows intellectual laziness. So why not just chuck out the bible (as you seem to have already done in part), stop calling yourself a Christian (if even not a 'good' one), and develop your own thoughts based upon sound reasoning and evidence?

median

p.s. - Faith is not a pathway to truth. It is just gullibility in a mask. It plays out as pretending to know something you don't know.

Because I don't base my entire life on it. I'm not a very good Christian in that respect. I'm into the serving others and doing unto others as you would yourself part. There is a lot of wisdom even if it is made up. There is also made up wisdom in Shakespeare and Harry Potter and other fiction. But the hellfire and condemnation not so much. I know my arguments don't stand up. This is why I don't argue.

What need of these 'arguments' (and the beliefs that stand behind them) do you have at all (even if not displayed)? Your statements quite clearly show that you're not a Christian (i.e. - a follower of Christ in any traditional sense). So why even bother? Picking and choosing bits and pieces from 'over here' and 'over there', from what makes you "feel" good isn't a reliable way to find truth. It shows intellectual laziness. So why not just chuck out the bible (as you seem to have already done in part), stop calling yourself a Christian (if even not a 'good' one), and develop your own thoughts based upon sound reasoning and evidence?

median

p.s. - Faith is not a pathway to truth. It is just gullibility in a mask. It plays out as pretending to know something you don't know.

Perhaps I am guilty of intellectual laziness. Or maybe I am overwhelmed with other issues in my life at this point that putting my faith under a microscope is not a major priority. I don't think it is unsound to treat others with kindness and charity. My only current outlet right now for the only part of me that isn't badly damaged (my singing voice) happens to be the church choir. There are secular groups but they are more demanding of time than I am able to handle. My only way to serve my community is through my church because I lack the energy to become involved with other groups. Who knows, some day if I get healthier I can be more introspective on this but this is definitely not the right time for me.

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It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long. But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

If your definition of one is someone who is kind to and considerate of other people, yes; if it means following the Bible as if it is inerrant, no.

So, when you say you're "not a very good Christian"...you're saying you're not kind and considerate of other people?

That specific quote was in respect to those who consider a good Christian one who bases their whole life around religion, putting God first, etc. I try to be kind and considerate but I'm not perfect. I was on the subway today & a guy got on with a cane and a neck collar, I asked him if he wanted to sit and he said "that's OK, mami, thank you." Then a quite large young woman with skin tight pants, tattoos, bopping to an ipod said "I'll sit" and plopped her very generous behind right next to me. I rolled my eyes, (lucky I had shades on) but I felt a little guilty about my reaction.

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It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long. But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

I guess I just get a little irked when people label behavior that most everyone would think of as "good", as "good Christian" behavior. It's not "good human" behavior, then - it's specifically Christian.

I guess I just get a little irked when people label behavior that most everyone would think of as "good", as "good Christian" behavior. It's not "good human" behavior, then - it's specifically Christian.

Where does that leave the rest of us?

Irked? Speak up, man! It must royally piss you off! It pisses me off too.

btw, I'll try to find some time for substantial follow ups sometime on the weekend.

I guess I just get a little irked when people label behavior that most everyone would think of as "good", as "good Christian" behavior. It's not "good human" behavior, then - it's specifically Christian.

Where does that leave the rest of us?

I absolutely do not think good behavior is specifically Christian. I like that Penn Jillette quote someone has as their signature about how he murders & rapes as much as he wants and that is none. I'm not sure even we as humans can patent "good" behavior. There are examples of heroic acts by animals.

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It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long. But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

So then, what does being a "good Christian" mean to you? You've used the phrase several times.

I did not realize I used that term so much. As guess when it comes right down to it a "good Christian" to me is a really good person who happens to be a Christian. Sometimes in some contexts I may use the term sarcastically to refer to the Bible thumper types.

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It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long. But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

You know, so far I really think you are an intelligent guy - which is why I am so confused as to why you would use such a massively FALSE ANALOGY for which to compare your alleged 'non-communicable' experience with. Weddings are DEMONSTRABLE! They are NOT extraordinary (i.e. - they are demonstrated and confirmed every-single-day). Furthermore, your story breaks down a second way as well. The driver could easily confirm all of this evidence of marriage by mere driving to your house and/or nearest government office in order to view those sufficient evidences. Your alleged experience is absolutely nothing like this! Can you demonstrate Jesus to us right now? [Btw, your bible (Mark 16/John 14) says you should be able to.]

median, Thanks for all the discussion - I think I will drop this argument for now. Just a couple of comments: I don't think that an analogy has to perfectly parallel the situation that it is describing; if it did, there wouldn't be much point in using the analogy. The point I was trying to get at was that even though in the marriage example I could take the stranger home and introduce him to my wife, I wouldn't be required to give up my belief that I am married during the 30 minute trip home - at the same time, the stranger wouldn't be rationally required to believe me during that time either. In terms of the comparison between my relationship with my wife and my relationship with Christ, I consider both to belong to the class of personal agents. I think that this is where we lack any common ground, and without coming to an agreement on whether a physical body is a necessary requirement for a personal agent to exist, I suppose there is not much point in continuing this argument. I really appreciated all the time you took to reply to my posts. G&W

That's a start. I'd like to know about some specifics of these interactions. You see, in the relationship I have with Mrs Screwtape, for example, we buy groceries together, cook and eat meals together, discuss our opinions of the wine of the evening, we watch movies and talk about them. Those are some of our interactions. What make up your interactions with jesus H?

Emotions are unreliable. It is possible for people to feel things strongly based on their own imaginations. People who get all worked up over, say, Lord Krishna, would be such an example. Kids whipping themselves into a frenzy for Santa would be another example. I am looking for something concrete. Actual interaction.

Don't you think that emotions add anything to your relationship with your wife beyond what can be described in terms of physical proximity?

Proving that you are married is easy. In that car ride it might be difficult, but in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't require a huge amount of evidence because it's not an extraordinary claim.

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How much evidence does it take to induce belief in an extraordinary claim?

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But what if push did come to shove and you weren't married but you really believed you were, and for some reason the man kept looking very seriously over the span of many years for evidence that you were married and found literally nothing to make him think that you were? No wife at your house, no wedding ring, no marriage certificate, no kids, no joint tax forms, no pictures of a woman in your house... nothing. Would he be justified in his conclusion that you weren't, even though you thought you were?

Yes, I never said that the function of non-communicable evidence was to convince another person to believe.

You mean 'relate' in a physical sense? Is that the only meaningful kind of relation?

I think one could make a case for a non-physical relationship if it had some sort of continuity and consistency. Somehow you would have to demonstrate that there was a second party involved, rather than just a single-person thought experiment. If the incorporeal party was able to supply information that the corporeal party could not access, you might have a case.

I think I went through a phase like that during my deconversion. I was in one of those places where I did not want to abandon my beliefs, but I could not justify or rationalize them. I was at the point of no return, but I think I wanted some sort of option to return. It's only when I decided that I couldn't return that I finally got past that hurdle. It wasn't much longer before I realized that I didn't want to return. The process of letting go was not an easy one, but once I did let go things went pretty smoothly.

That's the same thing that happened to me when I decided to give up atheism and return to belief. Instead of letting bad religious practices dictate my belief I have been defining God on my own terms and it has worked so much better for me. I understand how all of us believe what we believe. I think if God is truly defined as Loving and followers displayed that Love it wouldn't be so hard for people to believe w/o seeing God in person. It is a contradiction to say God Loves You but if you don't believe I'm going to fry you in a fiery hell for eternity. I just don't believe God is so unrelenting. If you go by the Bible, Jesus teaches us that God's love for us is more perfect than the human form of love. By that definition God would not condemn non believers to hell, because I wouldn't and God's love is way bigger than mine. I believe there are consequences but I believe them to be perfectly fair because they come from a source of perfect wisdom.

Instead of letting bad religious practices dictate my belief I have been defining God on my own terms and it has worked so much better for me.

I guess in a way, I also defined god on my own terms. Those terms just happened to be "oh hey, he's not there."

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I believe in God not religion.

I do see a number of people taking that approach. I think it's a good thing. Organizing people around religion gives the people at the top political power, and when political power is based on "pastor smith says so, and he has a direct line to god" it is very dangerous IMO. I think that the approach that "I will find god on my own terms" is good. I see it as a step on the path to people deciding not to find god at all, and maybe we can find more solid things to build social and political groups around.

If your definition of one is someone who is kind to and considerate of other people, yes; if it means following the Bible as if it is inerrant, no.

I don't personally really have a definition of 'good Christian' beyond 'good person that happens to be Christian'. Appears that you share the same view from your other responses. Just wanted clarity there; and from what I can gather, the answer is basically 'no, being a good Christian' in some sense beyond being a 'good person' isn't relevant to you.

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The implication seems to be that your view/belief is not of sufficient consequence as to warrant consideration for the truth-value of said view/belief.

I think my actions and behavior toward others is more significant than which Bible quotations I do or don't question.

But I'm extending that beyond bible quotations. I'm really talking about the actual existence of an entity called 'god'. It seems to me that you do not establish any level of importance (at least not sufficient importance to warrant examination of the truth-value) to the claim of the objective existence of that entity or said entities particular characteristics. God-belief, to you, is more of a philosophical position that isn't necessarily dependent on objective reality.

Your belief in the existence of god is basically some internal feeling that is strong enough such that, when presented with the question "Does god exist" your answer is 'yes', but not much more beyond that. From the OP standpoint, then, it sounds like logical argumentation or empirical analysis of any kind would change your view. Is it fair to say, then, that your view would change really only through some as-yet-to-be-defined collective of life experiences that change your intuition?

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"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

Is it fair to say, then, that your view would change really only through some as-yet-to-be-defined collective of life experiences that change your intuition?

I would say that the collective crap-bag of life experiences I am going through right now is keeping me from putting my views under close scrutiny in my own head. I am doing all I can to convince myself to survive. Sorry for the melodrama. I usually try to stay on the lighter side of things.

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It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long. But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Perhaps I am guilty of intellectual laziness. Or maybe I am overwhelmed with other issues in my life at this point that putting my faith under a microscope is not a major priority. I don't think it is unsound to treat others with kindness and charity. My only current outlet right now for the only part of me that isn't badly damaged (my singing voice) happens to be the church choir. There are secular groups but they are more demanding of time than I am able to handle. My only way to serve my community is through my church because I lack the energy to become involved with other groups. Who knows, some day if I get healthier I can be more introspective on this but this is definitely not the right time for me.

Lori, once again I appreciate your honesty in this regard but why would you want to hang out with a bunch of people who don't support your views (namely regarding the bible, etc) - unless of course you are engaged in debate with them. Are you? Obviously, there is nothing wrong with singing in a choir but there are many choirs. Have you tried Meetups.com? Networking with friends to put together your own choir? Myspace? Bandmix.com?

Now, regarding being kind to people, you don't need religion for that! Nor do you need the bible or any other man concocted 'holy-book' (of which you already alluded to). As one of my favorite authors once said,

"Human decency is not derived from religion. It precedes it." Christopher Hitchens

Instead of letting bad religious practices dictate my belief I have been defining God on my own terms and it has worked so much better for me.

Yep. It all becomes a LOT easier when you make it up as you go along.

Isn't it always funny how those people who go seeking their own god always find out that god neatly mirrors their own feelings and morality? You seldom hear of anyone say "so I went seeking the REAL god and found that it wants all these things that I think are terrible - I'm really unhappy now because I've discovered god, and it's SO not what I think is right."

Perhaps I am guilty of intellectual laziness. Or maybe I am overwhelmed with other issues in my life at this point that putting my faith under a microscope is not a major priority. I don't think it is unsound to treat others with kindness and charity. My only current outlet right now for the only part of me that isn't badly damaged (my singing voice) happens to be the church choir. There are secular groups but they are more demanding of time than I am able to handle. My only way to serve my community is through my church because I lack the energy to become involved with other groups. Who knows, some day if I get healthier I can be more introspective on this but this is definitely not the right time for me.

Lori, once again I appreciate your honesty in this regard but why would you want to hang out with a bunch of people who don't support your views (namely regarding the bible, etc) - unless of course you are engaged in debate with them. Are you? Obviously, there is nothing wrong with singing in a choir but there are many choirs. Have you tried Meetups.com? Networking with friends to put together your own choir? Myspace? Bandmix.com?

Now, regarding being kind to people, you don't need religion for that! Nor do you need the bible or any other man concocted 'holy-book' (of which you already alluded to). As one of my favorite authors once said,

"Human decency is not derived from religion. It precedes it." Christopher Hitchens

I am trying to avoid going into detail about my personal issues but I am not able to deal with networking, meeting new people, anything which requires a lot of effort or energy right now. The choirs in my area that are not affiliated with churches are more intense than I have stamina for. I don't hang on this forum for support on religious views obviously. But as for as secular views I seem to have a lot more in common people on this forum. I tried Christian forums but the ones I found were too lovey-dovey for my taste. I never meant to imply religion is needed to be kind to people. My life has basically fallen apart recently. To leave my church would be to leave the only human contact I get (except my son & long distance bf) other than my uncaring medical professionals and bill collectors.

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It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long. But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.