$10 charge for each post per bump per 24 hour period. That ought to take care of it Or, as Rangefinder Forum has it, there's a $7 charge for each FS listing. One can have multiple items in a given listing

I am confused as to why we have a bump at all. Many of the "bumps" are where someone has replied that they PMed the seller or that the seller replied. Why should this put the post first? It is probably in the process of finalizing a sale and is gone for all practical purposes.

Allowing one bump per post in a 24 hour timeframe seems reasonable to me, if we keep the bumps.

I would also like to see only one item per post in the B&S board with the price in the title. Prices quoted should include shipping, handling, insurance, and PayPal fees, no gift allowed.

3D.Doug wrote:
I for one, WANT TO KNOW if I am buying from a business! I think it is their responsibility to declare themselves as such, and let us know we are buying traded in gear, not their own personal gear. This is not an unreasonable thing to know.

I am new to FM and new to B&S, but I agree. I recently purchased a lens from a member with outstanding feedback, but some issues I have had since purchasing the item made me take a little closer look at the seller. No posts other than B&S. Probably a pawn shop. Would have been nice to know before purchasing that this wasn't someone's personal lens. And (I guess) now that they don't have any active sales they are unresponsive through PM.

Josh, good post Don't be discouraged because of this one experience. You've done well to look closer at the Seller, noting especially that whoever it is had no posts other than B&S. YMMV, but I for one will no longer buy from these guys/gals who have very large # of Great feedbacks and yet who make no other contribution to the forums, no photos, no advice to other photogs. Pizz on 'em. Too many other folks here who do sell their personal equipment at reasonable prices.

FWIW, apart from folks I know here, I will now require from a potential Seller that he or she name the history of the equipment: how'd they get it? When they got it? How many prior owners? and I'll ask explicitly if they are a pseudo-commercial Seller masquerading as a private Seller. Perhaps if enough Buyers begin doing this, the frequency of sales of the sort you've described will decline.

bump is a useful mechanism to keep your post relevant at top of search criteria. Those that work a bit at bumping, get better exposure. I have no problem with the concept, it's the abuse I have an issue with.

Josh, we've all been burned one way or the other before, it happens. Just hope it doesn't happen often, that's for sure. Do your homework. Learn about sellers.

I am glad this became a relevant topic. It's time we bring this to the forefront, and make the buy and sell a better place for those of us that want to keep it private.

Fred, while you're at it, maybe you could fix the Buy & Sell forum software? It randomly changes the status to "withdrawn' or "sold" when you mark something as "pending" and will sometimes change the status of all items in a thread. That's one of the reasons I have my items for sale in individual posts, because otherwise if I sell one item, everything in the thread gets changed. I posted this in the Forum & Misc thread weeks ago, but there's been no resonse.

It looks like I may be wrong about you being a dealer, I see you do actually have a lot of posts and such now. I actually thought you probably were a dealer with 10 posts in Nikon alone. I could be wrong about that. But still, don't you think bumping 10 items at a time is unfair to other sellers?

Well, you make a valid point about fixing the software though, maybe that could help on some level, if that problem is fixed, if it exists as you say, which I have no reason to believe you are wrong.

Fred Miranda wrote:
As someone wrote, commercial sales are not allowed per forum rules. However it's getting increasingly harder to moderate and enforce this rule.
Someone could be a commercial seller and disguise himself as photographer selling their own gear.

Perhaps there is something we could do code-wise.
Suggestions are welcome. I'm all ears.
Fred

Fred,

I've often felt that a seller should be active in the forums. There are many sites that do not allow B&S or access to certain forums until they've posted say 200 or 300 times in the general forums, been a member for a certain length of time or both.

I understand that it's a bit of a balancing act for you. If the idea behind the B&S forum is to be a secure marketplace for the benefit of FM members, then I really think someone who is not active in the forums shouldn't be on B/S. Personally, I won't purchase from a user that only has B/S posts no matter how much feedback they have. Just my 2 cents. I appreciate this site more than I can tell you. Thanks.

Ol' Murphy wrote "Nothing is Foolproof because Fools are so ingenious"

Sorry to sound cynical but whatever rules and speed bumps are put their way will likely end up frustrating legitimate participating FM'rs and do little to slow down the slicksters who spend their days at estate sales and pawnshops --- and their nights scheming how to look like legit sellers

So now what?

Jim8EL wrote: "Personally, I won't purchase from a user that only has B/S posts no matter how much feedback they have"

So here's an idea maybe Doug could focus his skills on:

Maybe we need a Yellow Flag that can be raised under the criteria set for the Red Flag.

The Yellow flag would highlight the sales post in yellow and add a line above the top of the individual posting --- ie

"The B&S Forum is for private, non-commercial sales: Members have expressed concern that this listing does not comply with standards for a private sale."

I'd avoid accusing anyone of being a reseller --- or setting a posting 'standard' because all they have to do is post "WOW" up and down the main image forums and they are good to go.

A plus is the psychology of posts that simply say "Concerned." It's a warning to the seller and a caution light for too-trusting buyers ... while educating both.

I still have no problem with limiting the number of bumps in a 24 hour period, so members are not bumping 25 threads around. Block bumping should be pretty much illiegal! If you bump, maake them wait 3 hours after bumping 3 posts before they can bump again. :-) Maybe? So, in other words, you can only bump an average of 1 post per hour in blocks of 3 hours. So, 3 post bump, you are sidelined for 3 hours before you can bump one of your many other threads! at least it slows them down. And prevents the 6 and 10 block bump, that bumps many people's ads off page 1.

Interesting and nice idea Chuck.

Oh, i bumped 2 threads together, the next guy within 5 minutes bumped 6 threads together at least.

I've found it is best to list items separately, you seem to get a better response to 1 item per post than a post with 4-5 items listed. I think others, like Molson have found this to be the case too. That doesn't make Molson a commercial seller, just a subscriber working the board effectively.

On the other side, as a buyer, sometimes items are missed if all posted on one thread. So I welcome it. Price it attractively & your item won't last long.

3D.Doug wrote:
I still have no problem with limiting the number of bumps in a 24 hour period, so members are not bumping 25 threads around. Block bumping should be pretty much illiegal! If you bump, maake them wait 3 hours after bumping 3 posts before they can bump again. :-) Maybe? So, in other words, you can only bump an average of 1 post per hour in blocks of 3 hours. So, 3 post bump, you are sidelined for 3 hours before you can bump one of your many other threads! at least it slows them down. And prevents the 6 and 10 block bump, that bumps many people's ads off page 1.

Interesting and nice idea Chuck.

Oh, i bumped 2 threads together, the next guy within 5 minutes bumped 6 threads together at least.

MikeW wrote:
I've found it is best to list items separately, you seem to get a better response to 1 item per post than a post with 4-5 items listed. I think others, like Molson have found this to be the case too. That doesn't make Molson a commercial seller, just a subscriber working the board effectively.

On the other side, as a buyer, sometimes items are missed if all posted on one thread. So I welcome it. Price it attractively & your item won't last long.

The issue here isn't the listing --- it's the seller --- there are 'dealers' with hundreds of posts only on B&S --- using FM as a market venue.

I suppose there's an argument "who cares" but if you buy thinking the person has good FM FB and really knows the history and performance of the gear the difference can get real clear real quick. Not long ago a guy on FM got a bad L from a guy who sounded experienced until the lens had issues --- turned out the seller didn't know the serial numbers on the lens had to match the numbers on the box.

Maybe FM needs a retail board for professional resellers --- personally I want to deal with people who know the gear they are selling and have the experience to evaluate it properly.

MikeW wrote:
I've found it is best to list items separately, you seem to get a better response to 1 item per post than a post with 4-5 items listed. I think others, like Molson have found this to be the case too. That doesn't make Molson a commercial seller, just a subscriber working the board effectively.

On the other side, as a buyer, sometimes items are missed if all posted on one thread. So I welcome it. Price it attractively & your item won't last long.

And not only Molson Several others as well... And the operative phrase is "working the board effectively."

Thing is, is that the commercial sellers are trading on the good Fred Miranda name in a targeted market and doing so at a superior profit due to the low cost of product posting; a cost more or less configured for members who actually add useful enriching content to this site throughout all of its non-buy and sell areas.

trenchmonkey wrote:
Resellers have pretty much taken over the B&S. Sad to see this happen.

Right on Will and Anthony!
Not only that but their are a few who go out of their way to "slam" "regular" FM'ers, who do more than B&S, ads indicating that his/her equipment being sold is defective in some way if labeled "refurbished-( I quote "what is wrong with the lens if it was refurbished?"), like new , +9/+10....I know it happened to me 3 times by the same guy.

THEN, when 3 fellow oldtime FM'rs, one who is in this post and who has a military avatar as I do, responded to his disdain in criticizing my ad with vitriol, he slammed certain military branches as "useless" and had NO respect for those branches.

He was new and a reseller only. I complained to Fred.
Fred saw this and removed the slams and my ads were allowed to continue but the culprit was ID'd.
He continues to "do his thing" on the B&S board.
Dan