Monday Musings

Doc BearAug 8, 2011 4:00 PM

Broncos fans were treated to seeing their favorite players on a very special day on Saturday. Before I get to recapping the week in camp and at the Invesco scrimmage, I wanted to take a minute to congratulate one of the most unique players to ever put on pads. Shannon Sharpe was one of a kind - his heart, his irrepressible nature, his remarkable natural skills and his unflinching work ethic, learned in the fields under the hot Georgia sun have been an inspiration to fans all over the league and especially in Bronco Country. Let it sink it, Shannon. You earned it. Thank you for all the memories, Shay - they’re endlessly sweet.

If by any chance you missed his enshrinement speech, do yourself a favor and catch it here.

What, Me Worry?

Regarding the open scrimmage on Saturday: I’m definitely not concerned because the Broncos' second-string tackles couldn’t handle the Von Miller-Elvis Dumervil combination. John Fox was up front that Tim Tebow had a tough situation, so that’s not going to be a problem. I’m not sure that a lot of teams are going to stop them, with their first team or not. When you add DE Robert Ayers and look at the DT options, it’s a heck of a front line, all of the sudden. It doesn’t make me happy or sad that Tebow also held the ball too long - he had a couple of nice passes, too, so it was a mixed day for him, and there are a lot more to come with different circumstances. And it isn’t a worry to me because Brady Quinn threw the only TD pass of the scrimmage, either. Quinn has greatly stepped up this camp, and he, too, will be getting a look.

I’m also not feeling bad because WR Eric Decker didn’t handle a TD pass on a fade route from Orton or a pass over the middle that he bobbled on third and 4, or that it was against the second string. It’s a first scrimmage. It really isn’t much more than a loose approximation of what the team is going to do or look like, and I’m not that attached to the results. These guys have played together for what, 9, 10 days? It matters, but it’s not that big a deal. How they progress will make the difference. NT Ty Warren will make a difference, I’d suspect. Figuring out the outside corners on run defense doesn’t matter that much to me this early.

I’m not blue just because I’m still not sure what Denver’s got in Knowshon Moreno. The numbers on his blocking from today’s (Monday) Lard show the combination of Knowshon and Correll Buckhalter to be among the worst pairs for pass blocking in the league, which I suspect mattered in letting Correll go. It’s surely not because Jeremiah Johnson looked like the best back of the group - more power to him. Despite his fourth-string status on the current depth chart - which doesn’t mean all that much, at this point, since it’s a first TC chart - he was an interesting question mark last year, and I wanted to see him this camp - what he’s done with LenDale White and Mario Fannin injured has been to make a bit of a name for himself.

I suspect that the move to waive Fannin was in part influenced by the play of Johnson, who has really stepped up. He’s blocked - had a nice one that let Quinn complete a pass to Mark Dell on Saturday - and he’s run well. It was certainly mostly created by Fannin’s own injury history - the knee problem is part of a pattern with him, and that pattern kept him from being drafted, so seeing it again was a ticket to a quick ‘see ya’, but with a hook - he’s cleared waivers, and they like what he’s been doing well enough that he’s back with the team on Injured Reserve. With Moreno and Willis McGahee, the Broncos still have a great start to a run game, and I think that McGahee is going to be counted on for those short-yardage TDs. Ball makes a serviceable fourth back, and he and White will fight for the last slot. That doesn’t bother me at all. Johnson might put some of Moreno’s carries down too on his side of the stat sheet and that would be fine with me too, if he keeps earning it. Moreno isn’t a ‘through the tackles’ runner at this point. Johnson is having quite a camp, and as I mentioned, some of the things I heard on him last year were more than just interesting.

I’m seriously orange and blue about the way that the pass rush is going to look this year, and I’m definitely O+B on adding Syd’Quan Thompson, new RB C.J. Gable and Brandon Bing to the potential list of returners. Eddie is a talent, and they need to also monitor the number of times he gets hit - return tackles have a somewhat higher rate of injury, and they need him healthy at WR. Syd’Quan has a talent, and getting him on the field is in the team’s best interest - even though Cassius Vaughn has taken over the nickelback duties right now, obscuring Syd’Quan’s role, and putting Perrish Cox’s place on the team in question. Vaughn is #2 behind Champ on the current depth chart, and congrats to Kyle McCarthy for currently taking the #2 role at SS from Quinton Carter. Syd’Quan has had an INT in almost every practice, but is currently the third RCB. Even CB Brandon Bing, a guy I want to see on returns if possible, had an INT at Invesco to wrap up practice. Depth is a beautiful thing. Injuries will happen, and Denver has some options. A nasty, blazing, overwhelming pass rush is always a good start. Oh, and RB Gable, picked up off waivers from the Saints, had over 1,100 yards returning for USC, so that’s an option that may be worth exploring.

It was great work by John Fox to set up the scrimmage as it was, keeping units intact to get some level of consistency. There’ll be other scrimmages as well as preseason games, and different guys will get a turn. Is it a perfect free competition for the QBs? No. There are two things at work here, though - the desire to find out what you’ve got from each QB (injuries and trouble on the field can make deciding changes that may come tough, and the more info you have, the better) and simultaneously developing the guy you see as the starter. Starter is far from won, although folks have strong opinions.

I’d made the comment to the staff a while back to the effect that I wondered if people’s heads would explode if Brady Quinn started this year. Some of the observers have noted that Quinn looks like a new QB of late, with the mobility that you associate with Tebow but more of Orton’s accuracy. That might work, as crazy as it seemed not long ago. I recall Orton commenting that four months of studying with Josh McDaniels taught him more than four years in Chicago had, and I’m not surprised - Mike Martz is a good attempt to fix that in Chicago, but it’s been a QB graveyard for a generation and that’s always been a coaching problem as much as a GM problem. Quinn may have learned a lot himself and put it into work during the long offseason - he’s a smart guy, and he knows what he’s up against. He may even see a role for himself. Which leads to...

I’m a bit more blue when I wonder about the OL, and that may favor Quinn at some point. It isn’t that the second-string tackles couldn’t handle Von Doom - that’s normal. I expect a lot of first-string offenses to struggle at times with the new-look Denver DL. I look forward to the firsts versus the firsts, O and D. It’s going to come, and it’s going to tell us a lot about Denver’s ability to stop its own defensive front. So will preseason, within reason. It’s a scripted, strange way of winnowing the herd, but it plays its role. No, what worries me is that Cecil Lammey’s been in camp, watching and keeping notes, and he’s seeing that Zane Beadles is tough as nails, but gets beaten too much still, and J.D. Walton, in his opinion, hasn’t improved since last training camp. That’s pretty cold, but Cecil’s been accurate on a lot and he’s been there to see it.

By the way, his wife had emergency surgery last week, and he missed some practice time to be with her. I’d like to take this chance to wish her and Cecil all the best for her speedy recovery.

By the way, those of us whose jaws dropped open in seeing Russ Hochstein listed as the starting RG with Eric Olsen second and Chris Kuper third can take a deep breath - the new chart lists Kuper as the starting guard, with Hochstein and Olsen behind him. Whew!

If Cecil is right, the QB problem will return in much the same way as it did last season. Teams will realize that you can blitz 5 and 6 guys without fear, and the staff will have to come up with an alternative - which Josh McDaniels never did, and that surprised me. The OL is a huge key to the new coaching staff’s plans. Without it, a running game becomes a joke and the QB a moving, or not so moving target. This does worry me. Manny Ramirez, a Detroit castoff at guard who’s playing on a future contract, is currently the backup center. Eric Olsen is behind Hochstein. Zane Beadles remains at LG, with Stanley Daniels behind him. I expect Denver to be actively following the waiver wire, especially with their #2 position - a number of linemen are going to be cut in numbers games, and some of them may help.

If the OL can’t step it up this year - and it’s early, to be fair - Orton probably won’t last and it will become a question of Quinn and Tebow. Either could start this year and next - there’s no reason for either not to. If the OL does step up, Orton might do much better. Julius Thomas, Daniel Fells and Dante Rosario are all options to improve the situation - better TE blocking is a max-protect option, having one TE or WR on a hot route is another (Right now, Fells is the starting TE with Richard Quinn and Dan Gronkowski behind him and Julius Thomas as fifth string, but I’ll believe that when they have shaved ice franchises in Hades). Orton is very good at play action, which is surprising, given the running game of late. One option is the short outlet pass to the RB, and Moreno may not have worked out how to run over the middle, but he sure can catch and run. So can Johnson, for that matter, and so can McGahee. Possibilities abound, but the OL is the key.

There’s no lack of receivers. It certainly isn’t a concern to me that Eddie Royal and Matt Willis are both starting to look scary, with Julius Thomas becoming just as much so or because Brandon Lloyd already is frightening. Decker’s issue in the end zone and on third down on Saturday notwithstanding, he’s also obviously going to be a player this year. Lloyd is still unearthly, Royal looks like his early self and Matt Willis has turned on the afterburners to back up Lloyd. It’s a great group, and David Anderson has also been steady and showed a lot of talent in the last few practices. Great depth again.

Training Camp

To a coach, training camp is a process that only can be seen in its entirety. They’re going to try out certain guys for particular roles and those players may sink or swim - it’s mostly up to them. The goal is to win games, and the coaches are going to have to make a lot of decisions about who gives them the best chance, based on everything that they’ve learned over the years, studied and trained for and have seen up close in a level of detail that we just don’t get, no matter how often some fans (and a thousand thanks to them for the updates!) attend public camp sessions or what the fans believe to be in the team’s best interest. Some of those decisions will be popular, and some won’t. It goes with the job.

To a fan, the results of a day are the issue that he knows about and has in his consciousness, and the fans react on that basis. Fans are passionate people - they feel things deeply, they have a visceral connection to their teams and they generally have strong opinions. That’s their role, it’s an important one (without it, the game would wither and fade) and the team needs that 12th man that they trust and respond to - it can turn the tide of a close game. It’s a powerful force.

Last week, the newest arrivals, including Ty Warren, Brodrick Bunkley, Dante Rosario, Daniel Fells and Willis McGahee joined Brian Dawkins and got onto the field. The process of deciding the roles of these players, if any, will take a lot of time. The decisions may seem like they come fast, but they’ll be the product of endless 100+ hour weeks, thought, effort, preparation and calibration of the performance of those players. The 90 guys who are out there this week will be winnowed by more than half. Some of those decisions are probably already obvious - others will be made in the final days before the season. Many of those will change with the course of the games; injuries, performances, guys who stand out and those who can’t handle certain situations. There will be movement as some players go down and others have to step up.

In the end, some fans will be disappointed with the choices, and others won’t. Those who are should hang in there - if the player they wanted to see start doesn’t, the guy in front of yours has the world on his shoulders. You can’t hide a thing on game day - the pleasures of national television (and the exorbitant Sunday Ticket, as well as the far less expensive NFL Rewind, which I recommend) mean that everyone who wants to can watch, record, replay, study and talk about the performances and what they mean. If one guy doesn’t get it done, the next fellow always gets his chance. It might not happen the way we want or in the time frame that we want, but it’s a Darwinian environment that’s pretty merciless and it tends to get the job done. If a player you’re rooting for is benched, demoted or traded, that’s all just part of the business.

The coaches aren’t really going to listen to the fans. The management might - they will, in a bad enough situation - but in general, they have to back up the decisions that the guys in ball caps who work with the players daily come to. It’s the nature of the job - management can’t be seen as manipulating the coaches, because the players will lose respect for the coaches. Every coach lives and dies, professionally, by his decisions. The staff of coaches that Denver brought in or kept have a lot of experience. It’s up to them to base their professional lives on those decisions, and they aren’t going to take that lightly.

I’m happy to argue, debate, support and question those decisions, just like everyone else. But I’m going to generally support the decisions that are made by those guys, because they just know a heck of a lot more than I do. I love the game and I’ve watched, enjoyed, studied and learned about it for over five decades, but what I know is a drop in the bucket to what they’ve seen and learned, and I try to keep that in mind. Every coach, just like every other person, is going to make mistakes. They’re also going to do good things. Right now, I’m aware of how often Denver has done things that weren’t in the team’s best interest over the past several years (and it leaves me a bit on edge at times), but I’m also very aware that the EFX team hasn’t even fielded a team yet. It’s too early to judge much of anything, but it’s a great time to support your team.

Defense

There’s not much question that the biggest developments of the week were on the defensive side of the ball, with big body Brodrick Bunkley immediately taking number 77 and taking over the starting nose tackle position on the first team. He joins Ayers, Vickerson and Doom right now, with Louis Leonard sitting down with a knee injury (he was also moved to the fourth string on the depth chart), but in theory joining Marcus Thomas and Jeremy Jarmon and Derrick Harvey, along with several other DE players who got reps on that or the third unit. Marcus Thomas also had a dominating day on Friday, which is encouraging.

The arrival of Ty Warren will have an effect on that lineup - if he’s able to stay healthy, Warren could take the defense up another step. Right now, Denver has him listed as the #2 NT where he’ll probably fight with Bunkley for the starting NT position. His pass rushing is his hole card in that competition - both are stout run defenders. I can’t imagine not being excited by the changes in the defense this year, and I look forward to seeing them in action.

Given the advantages that the offenses have in the modern NFL, I thought that Dennis Allen’s perspective was worth considering:

I think the only advantage defenses have anymore is they have to be feared, and that’s the thing that we want to be. We want to be a violent, aggressive defense that plays within the rules, but we’re going to hit try to hit you as hard as we can and then obviously schematically we’re going to try to bring pressures in different areas when we get you in those downs and distances.

Sounds like a lot of fun to me.

We saw on Saturday that one player who will benefit hugely from these changes to the D is Robert Ayers. Ayers has talked about the fact that the offenses will have to react to having Von Miller and Elvis Dumervil staring at them on passing downs, with Vickerson next to them, and how he expects that while the offensive line is dealing with those problems, he wants to get a few licks in.

People are going to be looking at Elvis and these other guys, and hopefully I can punch them in the mouth a couple of times. That’s my goal, and once we get them paying attention to all three of us, that’s when it’s really going to be fun.

Ayers is a talented guy who has the potential, baring injury, to make a huge impact this year. He’s also got to be happy with adding Warren and Bunkley to the lineup - both are big guys with experience and talent, and while Warren is now 30, when healthy he’s still a force while Bunkley is only 27. Ty Warren may start at nose tackle with the first team, but Bunkley’s play could change that - it’s going to be a great camp battle, and Denver wins either way. The way Bunkley rag-dolled OL candidate Shawn Murphy in his first drill, a play that drew loud cheers from his teammates, suggested that Denver may have something very good in him (Yes, Murphy is camp fodder, but he made an NFL camp, so he’s not untalented and he’s also 6’4 and 315 lb. That’s a lot of man to manhandle). Dennis Allen has experimented with moving Ayers to DT when Miller puts his hand down - it’s just a guess, but I’m looking for a lot more pressure out of this group than I did last year, especially with the unfortunate loss of Doom the first week of camp in 2010.

Someone asked - in a passing down, does the NT still just take up bodies, or does he attack the QB? The answer is that every DL player attacks the QB, but they may play different roles in doing so. Two seasons back, Doom gave the credit for some of his sacks to the way that Ayers collapsed the pocket and drove the QB into him, which is something the stat line doesn’t show. If Warren, for example, can put on that kind of pressure, it frees up Ayers, Miller and Doom to do what they do so well. Who the heck do you double-team? That’s one reason that Warren may start over Bunkley - Bunkley is great on rushing downs, but Warren adds a pass-rushing skill that makes the DL even more threatening. Vickerson isn’t exactly immobile either - the team noted his athleticism when they re-signed him, and I noted it last season from the game film. Thomas is also a talented, penetrating one-gapper who put on a great show at camp last week. The options are always interesting in training camp, but this one’s a circus - there’s something entertaining going on everywhere.

After the second quarter at Invesco, call it the Von Doom defense. Those guys are going to be amazing.

Conclusion

Lance Ball had tweeted last week about the difference in the feeling of camp this year. John Fox is a steady, calm presence who’s done it all before and expects to do it well again, which Denver badly needed. Several veterans made the decision to come to Denver based on meeting with Fox, including Ty Warren. He’s held onto OC Mike McCoy, whose continuity may be a key to developing the offense, and he’s working with DC Dennis Allen on defense, a man who has impressed me from the time he was coaching with the Saints. Allen in particular seems to know exactly what he wants from the players. Laconic and straight to the point, Allen has a clear vision of what he wants, and he’s bringing it out of the players.

I’m impressed with the overall feelings from the camp, and very happy with the upgrades to the team so far. There will be many more, eventually, but it’s a great start. Anytime you can put a 2nd-round player in at starting safety, add one of the top pass rushers available in the college ranks and have six of your draftees taking at least some reps with the first team, you’re going well. The additions of Bunkley, Warren, and Derrick Harvey, among others, have brought the level of play up another notch, and that can’t hurt.

John Elway sent a similar tweet:

One week into camp, there’s a positive dynamic and energy in our locker room. Everyone working toward getting better.

Sure, it’s what you expect to hear. That doesn’t mean that there’s not some truth to it - I think that every player who’s on a team that’s experiencing a major turnover has to want to be there, has to believe that there’s a place for him and has to be willing to prove it to the coaches and his teammates. In watching the films of camp, there’s an obvious sense of hard work and intense focus from the vast majority of the players.

There’s a swagger that comes with having a team that’s been in place for a long time and had success - Denver has experienced that before, and they will again. Almost every team - and all of them, over time - deals with ups and downs, periods when you make the playoffs nearly every year, and times when you don’t. It’s part of football. There’s also power in being a team that other folks take a little lightly. Given the pass rush that Denver will be boasting and the other pieces that are in place, though, I have to wonder if that’s going to happen this year. The league's OCs won’t.

There are a lot of great stories coming out of camp. What I’m not catching, other than the QB debate, are those things that kill a team’s momentum - players who won’t practice, those who are holding out and even those who get into trouble, even in a TC environment. Those things haven’t been happening. It’s an area where no news is great. It means that the team is able to focus on the job at hand: becoming a winner. It starts on the 11th at Dallas.

Go Broncos!

Learn to laugh at yourself. You will be ceaselessly amused. - Sri Gary Olsen

You can reach Doc at .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) or follow him on Twitter @alloverfatman

@ Broncosmontana: I like Orton&#8217s attitude this year as well. I don&#8217t blame him for having a chip on his shoulder with the way he&#8217s been treated. And it might come off as a bit arrogant when he says &#8220I know where my game is&#8221, but the fact is, he&#8217s right. By all accounts his game has been the best of all the QB&#8217s in camp. And being right is all it takes to separate confidence from arrogance.

To Doc&#8217s point about Orton improving various aspects of his game - who here remembers when the knock on Orton was that he didn&#8217t have a strong enough arm to get the ball downfield? Wasn&#8217t that the knock on Orton back in 2009? Whatever happened to that last year?

Posted by Hercules Rockefeller on 2011-08-09 13:35:46

Yep&#8230.find it hard to support anyone that really does not want to be here. He gets free rental of OUR team for a year, peddles his wares and leaves. Not sure how this helps the team one bit. Anyway, the whole thing has got so tiresome that I have little interest in any of it anymore.

Its only for the defense and Thomas I have any interest in the team, and I hope they do well.

My wish for developing a young team behind a young, inspirational leader probably wont eventuate. Oh well, onward and up and hope my enthusiasm for the team comes back to old levels.

Thanks for the musings Doc&#8230one of the better reads in last couple of weeks after reading all the the Tebow and Orton articles!

Posted by Boydy2669 on 2011-08-09 09:08:40

Thanks for the comments, BK. I&#8217ve got mixed feelings on Matt Roth - there&#8217s a limit to how many we can keep. Even so, if he can carve out a slot, let the best guys play. Jarmon, btw, had a couple of sacks in practice today and looks like he should play in a 4-3. Obtaining OL guys, if they can help, is fine with me. See Wednesday&#8217s column for more on the OL.

By the way, 104 The Fan had a &#8216cast yesterday afternoon that involved Orton. Among other things, at practice he was coaching up Tebow, who may have had his worst day yesterday (Monday). Orton may not like the guy, and he can&#8217t like the way he&#8217s been treated around the guy, but Tebow&#8217s a teammate and another QB, so Orton&#8217s helping him out anyway. So much for the &#8216lousy teammate&#8217 rap that Paige was trying to dump on him. Quinn had a decent day too - better than Tebow&#8217s, not as good as Orton&#8217s, but he&#8217s coming along.

Posted by Doc Bear on 2011-08-09 08:30:04

I forgot to add one more thing: in the &#821680s I used to record the games and watch them again when my blood pressure was normal and I could relax in my chair rather than sitting on the edge of it yelling at the TV. I really enjoyed seeing plays develop and I was able to get more of a sense of where the team was at.

I plan to get the NFL Rewind when the season begins. I got the audio for now. I will listen to the Bronco commentators even if there is a game shown in our area. Dave Logan, Brian Griese and co are so much better than most of the network guys.

Posted by BlackKnight on 2011-08-09 07:21:34

Great article, Doc. Lots of good football reading both in your writing and in the comments. Love this stuff!

@ sleepyteak: agree with bringing in a veteran center. That is a tough position to learn for a rookie and IMO is almost equal to LT in importance. A vet would give Walton some room to breathe - and learn.

Wonder if Leonard Davis would work here - someone mentioned him in another thread - that he may need too much cheese. I am getting concerned about the OL situation - as you, Doc, and several others have mentioned. You have to have a decent OL with good depth if you plan to have an adequate running game. However - maybe I am worrying needlessly here. The way this DL is coming together - like rabbits being pulled out of a hat - if the OL comes together like that - WOW!

As mentioned in another thread - we are #2 in the waiver wire plus Carolina has a pretty good OL.

I read the Orton story - yeah - a setup.

I am excited about Quinn&#8217s development. He probably would echo Orton&#8217s comment about how much he learned from McDaniels. This kid has the tools - he simply needed to regain his confidence. The Cleveland experience was not good for him - especially starting out. He could thrive in a Fox offense with a good running game and with the receiving corp that is here.

There is some noise about signing Matt Roth. What a rotation at DE that would be!! However, is this overkill? We already have some guys who may be pushing for PT such as Jarmon. I am wondering if it is misdirected money with the need on the OL?

Great piece of work. Thanks, Doc, for your insight and energy. I am also thanking my computer as I couldn&#8217t post anything yesterday for some reason.

Posted by BlackKnight on 2011-08-09 07:16:55

And lose out on Miller? Nah&#8230.

Posted by Doc Bear on 2011-08-09 06:09:50

Actually, speaking for myself, I do like him better because he stood up for himself in that small a way. I like his attitude this camp. He&#8217s defiant and confident.

If he&#8217d had that attitude last year, we might have been 6-10. ; )

Posted by broncosmontana on 2011-08-09 05:29:57

Not to overplay this one, but no matter what Orton does, he still will get booed. No one is going to like him better because he does or doesn&#8217t stand up for himself in that small a way. As I&#8217ve said before - this is going to be overblown. He&#8217s still going to work his butt off for the job he wants and he won&#8217t be denied it for making a comment that innocuous). The team may ask for some gesture, but making it won&#8217t change anything. Some people are just going to act this way.

Look at yesterday&#8217s article - the pro-booing seemed to be in the majority on the comments for at least a while (I didn&#8217t count, and I&#8217m not going to bother). I was an evil person for believing that booing players is oafish behavior. Well, I&#8217m not going to change that belief. Fans feel like they have a &#8216right&#8217 to, and I don&#8217t blame Orton for saying that he&#8217s focusing on football. By the way, did you even read the question he was asked, when he responded? It was a set-up.

Posted by Doc Bear on 2011-08-09 02:40:24

@Snake

Keep something in mind when you watch tape of last year, Snake - it was last year. The team was snakebitten from the day of Doom&#8217s injury. Most players improve, year to year, and anyone the Broncos are keeping is pretty likely to be in that group.

The 1st string D and 1st string O played today, and it was about a draw between the two lines. I don&#8217t have any doubt that the DL is pretty good at this point. One practice doesn&#8217t make a pattern, in either direction - last week the 1s were playing poorly, today they played well and tomorrow, who knows? I&#8217m open to waiting - Denver might bring someone in, the OL might get it together and they might be a problem. Either way, you can&#8217t really tell from last year how this year&#8217s group will play, even if it&#8217s much the same group.

What you can get is a good baseline: It&#8217s not hard to catalog the weaknesses of the players last season given how obvious they were. Keep track and compare it to the new tape as the season progresses - you might see differences, might not, but that&#8217s how you track production. It&#8217s like watching Ayers in his first season - over his head to start, but made visible progress week to week and ended up playing quite well, with 17 hurries to his credit. You&#8217ll also see how often the conventional wisdom is just wrong, which is fun.

Posted by Doc Bear on 2011-08-09 02:22:49

IMHO if Orton gave some of the so called fans the ole&#8217 Plummer hand signal he would be completely justified.

Posted by ohiobronco on 2011-08-09 02:07:58

@Doc

Really? PHEW! I was afraid I was not making my point clearly, forcefully, or enough! Such a relief that people can tell my opinion on the QB situation <img alt="tongue laugh" height="19" src="http://www.singernet.com/images/smileys/tongue_laugh.gif" style="border:0;" width="19">

Posted by SpaceCowboy on 2011-08-09 01:36:33

@David

I think that you&#8217re taking it farther than it was meant. Whether the fans love him or hate him, he starts if he&#8217s the best player. If he isn&#8217t, or doesn&#8217t perform, he will get replaced.

Orton works hard in the community. He&#8217s been a good team player, good citizen and a good QB. He&#8217s got strengths and weaknesses, but the way he&#8217s being treated is just embarrassing to me. I doubt that this will affect the front office much. Maybe he makes a public mea culpa, maybe not. It won&#8217t affect who starts, either way.

Orton&#8217s comment is surly like ole Jake The Snake used to be&#8230.without the wins or the skills to do it.

Just rewatched week 15, and christ if the Offense had just been a little big more aggressive they could have one that game.

If you KNOW the O-Line is going to be an issue (and I think it will be, Walton and Beadles are still young and developing) you need a mobile QB, otherwise you are going to get demolished (Orton v SF defense anyone?) On the subject of the O-Line, christ that run blocking needs to get better, they got crushed waaaaay toooo many times last year when the healthy starting group was there. No wonder Ryan Harris wasn&#8217t a big priority

I still think it is the absolute wrong decision for so many reasons to make Orton the starter.

Posted by SpaceCowboy on 2011-08-09 01:15:44

@Doc

I can&#8217t see this playing at well. Of course he needs to impress the coaches has his highest priority, and then his teammates, then the fans/media, etc. But if people already have it out for him, and boo him in practices/scrimmages (tacky), he should care about the fans who pay for the tickets, to go to the games, that pay for his salary. I see this backfiring on him. Maybe he shakes it off, and maybe management tells him to take it easy, since the fans pay the bills. He can&#8217t please all the fans, but he could at least give the impression he cares. I just don&#8217t think a player poopooing on the fans is going to help his career in Denver. If you are an amazing player but seen by management as a cancer - well you know what happened to Cutler&#8230

Posted by DavidInLA on 2011-08-09 01:08:38

@Space

Yeah, you get a serious picture of it when you realize that it was much better by then than it was earlier in the year. That&#8217s why I&#8217m been a bit repetitive on the subject - it was at the heart of a lot of troubles.

Good news out of camp today - the #1 offense went up against the #1 defense and held their own. Man, if you can stop Von Doom, you&#8217re doing OK. Let&#8217s hope the pattern continues. If so, both sides are going to get an amazing amount of training during practice - it&#8217s one of the benefits of having good players.

Posted by Doc Bear on 2011-08-09 01:02:49

Pretty simple - that he has to win over the coaches to start. It will be taken wrong, but Orton&#8217s point is perfectly fair.

He&#8217s gotten a lot of flak from the fans, and much of it, IMO, has been overblown. You know, a lot of the things that he used to be accused of have disappeared because he overcame his weaknesses. There&#8217s no reason to believe that he&#8217s stopped improving. Some yahoos come out to boo him at practices at this point, but he&#8217s still the starting QB right now and may be on Opening Week, whether the fans like it or not.

To do that, he has to prove to the coaches that he&#8217s the best QB on the team right now. The opinions of the fanbase don&#8217t play into it. I&#8217m sure the team will wish that he&#8217d been more diplomatic (and tomorrow, he may feel the same; who knows?), but I don&#8217t have an issue with it. It&#8217s not politic, but it&#8217s true.

Posted by Doc Bear on 2011-08-09 00:58:58

What are your musings about this Orton statement: &#8220My last goal playing quarterback is winning over the fans.&#8221

Thanks Doc. Your comments make me feel as if I was at the camp in person. As usual I am stoked about our team&#8217s chances this season. Go Broncos!

Posted by azdenfan on 2011-08-08 23:49:02

@Doc

Look forward to it. Got NFL Rewind again this year, watched week 17 and 16, going to watch week 15 tonight. Discovered that this year they have coaches film on certain plays. The deeper I get into the sport (thanks to everyone here at IOAFM) the more I want to look at something with my own eyes and come to a much deeper conclusion on my own (as if being able to name the entire 53 man roster doesn&#8217t make me enough of a nut!)

So yeah, anything you can do to help me get on the path would be much appreciated.

One thing that was painfully apparent after re watching those two games was just how bad some of the O-Line play was. Even with the complete starting lineup in there penetration was happening waaaaay too quick

Posted by SpaceCowboy on 2011-08-08 23:03:39

Good read. I was wondering about #27. I saw a pic recently of #27 and Big Will standing next to each other. Moreno looked little, can see why he&#8217s having trouble running inside.I have a gut feeling Willis has 12 TDs and 1100 yds. Fox liked bigger backs in Caralina. Moreno could be a better compliment back. Wonder if he could return punts? Another Monday closer to game time.

Posted by BroadRipplebronco on 2011-08-08 23:01:46

Thanks for the feedback guys - great comment, sleepy.

Space, I&#8217m going to put together some stuff on that. I usually do a piece around now and I&#8217ve been thinking about how to make it easy, or easier at least. Glad that you&#8217re feeling an interest - I think that it&#8217s one of the simplest skills to get a start with. You can get very, very good or slightly good, but you can get up to good pretty fast, which helps. Look for the piece very soon. People are often intimidated by it, but on the simplest level, hey, you&#8217re just watching TV/Video. It&#8217s just a question of watching specifics on the screen, and ignoring what you&#8217re not concerned with right then. Hardly rocket science.

And, if you ever get the bug, you can learn history, where formations come from, who had the biggest influences on X and some pretty advanced concepts, too, if you ever want. The immediate goal, though, is just to have fun and learn some stuff. The rest is a sometime later option - nothing more.

Posted by Doc Bear on 2011-08-08 22:35:29

Thanks for the musings very insightful. Last week after signing Warren, Denver said that they would reasses were they were as a team in a week or so. I calculated that to be after the first preseason game and I&#8217m imagining that is the way with all NFL teams. I wouldn&#8217t be surprised that this week or next that some trades start to take place. teams with a player that is capable but isn&#8217t likely to make their team. Denver hopefully will find a center that will compete with Walton. If Denver found a starting Center I&#8217d be content with Walton as the primary interior backup. Chris Clark is one of those waiver wire pickups and I really don&#8217t know what Denver has in him, but that is the type of player you get off the waiver wire. I hope Denver makes some trades. They have an abundance of NFL quality TEs. They have an abundance of 3-4 linebackers. Denver can make some trades and not hurt their depth in some areas and make some trades to add to the O-line depth. O-line is really my only concern at this time. BTW i see the TEs as Fells as the starter because he can both catch and block. Quinn as the primary blocking TE. Orange Julius as the primary receiving TE. Then Gronk as the backup to Fells.

Posted by sleepyteak on 2011-08-08 22:17:37

I love the Musings. Good stuff. The upgrade on the depth chart to Cassius and McCarthy are interesting. I hope our O-line stays healthy.

Posted by DavidInLA on 2011-08-08 21:54:44

Looks like Detroit has caught the Bronco&#8217s injury bug from last season. They&#8217ve lost a couple starters already&#8230

Posted by OutOfYourElement on 2011-08-08 21:46:57

The irony of course is that some folks were lambasting McDaniels last year for his OL picks because we needed DL depth. Sure glad we nabbed Franklin.

Posted by broncosmontana on 2011-08-08 21:32:15

Doc, I just love your breakdowns. Great summation of as generally positive and upbeat a first few weeks of camp as I can recall. Crossing my fingers we continue to be spared by injury, that all players continue to buy in and develop, and that we make our way to the regular season opener with a talented, motivated roster. Sure hope you&#8217re right about picking up some OL depth on waivers, though. Looking a little sparse there&#8230

Posted by broncosmontana on 2011-08-08 21:30:06

@doc: very disappointing hearing about walton&#8217s lack of progress. i thought he was awful mentally last year and a big part of the OL&#8217s problems. i don&#8217t know how many times i saw him vacate his spot too early to help an OG ... just before a delayed blitzer or a stunting DL ran free through the open middle.

Posted by sterto on 2011-08-08 21:07:01

@tunesmith: don&#8217t know enough about franklin to comment about his pass-blocking vs harris, but will say that graham&#8217s blocking (both run and pass) fell off a cliff last year. i can&#8217t tell you how many times i rewound to watch him whiff his man completely. it was a little sad and unexpected to see such a huge and sudden dropoff. kinda like ian gold&#8217s play in his last year.

Posted by sterto on 2011-08-08 21:04:18

I&#8217ve only read the first third so far but it&#8217s clear this is epic&#8230 <img alt="smile" height="19" src="http://www.singernet.com/images/smileys/smile.gif" style="border:0;" width="19"> But one thought about the first third&#8230

I don&#8217t believe Franklin is a pass-blocking upgrade over Harris. And I don&#8217t believe any of our tight ends are pass-blocking upgrades over Daniel Graham - he couldn&#8217t catch worth a lick last season but as far as I know he&#8217s still one of the best blocking tight ends in the game.

And the rest of the pass-blocking offense is the same as last season.

So as bad as we were last season at pass blocking, we might even be worse now. Fear the blitz!