For me it is not helpful to focus all the wrong ones, as what is here so clear said, "recognizing nature is sufficient to slay all those at once", since then the dream is seen.

Those who like to focus on historical facts of Dzogchen; I saw a tick yellow book Golden Letters, enriched by words of Namkay Norbu Rinpoche. lots is there explained in many details about history and authenticity. But I didn't read it.

zerwe wrote:It would not seem to be innate, but something that must be developed.

It is innate, but because of not recognizing the absence of identity, it's scope is limited.

If you want your compassion to be free from limitations, the only way to do that is to recognize your own state.

M

I agree, it is innate, this is also why developing compassion actually can be a way to recognize the natural state.

"As long as your expression moves as thinking, which is delusion, this deluded thinking can be either white or black. If you get caught up in black thoughts, you get caught up in the three poisons. Whatever comes out of that is black, like the 84.000 types of disturbing emotions. When caught up in that, one will definitely go to the lower realms. White thoughts, on the other hand, are devotion and pure appreciation towards enlightened beings, compassion for unenlightened beings, and a strong sense of honesty. Whatever comes out of these is automatically goodness or virtue, which is why they are called "white". Creating a virtuous frame of mind is thus not something impossible. What is the use of training in this? Recognize your essence in the moment of strong devotion, which is an emotion so powerful that tears comes to your eyes and the hairs on the body stand on end. As the third Karmapa said "In the moment of love, the empty essence dawns nakedly". In that same instant, uncontrived, self-existing awareness is totally devoid of any error or fault. Your empty essence have been laid totally bare, and have dawned nakedly. The same can be experienced through intense compassion"

Tuku Urgyen, As it is, volume 1

/magnus

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa

A sincere compassion, uncompromising to oneself, is certainly the best way to be fully open to realize direct introduction when received ... It's for shure a winning ticket.But I'm not shure this type of compassion could be "trained" ...

Sönam

By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.- Longchen Rabjam -

It is simple, when you see suffering, do you have compassion or not? Did that compassion come about because you spent lots of time sitting thinking about your kind mother, etc....? No, probably not. It came about because compassion is a natural part of our state and when we witness suffering, we are empathetic.

M

I suspect the whole 'kind mother' idea arose as a suitable means when working with child monks who may be missing their mothers.

When I observe Westerners encountering the same teaching for the first time they sometimes look confused, sometimes annoyed and sometimes it gels, but it is hardly of univeral value.

The capacity to walk is also innate in humans, yet a child must learn to walk. Merely showing it what walking is does not suffice.

In this case to learn is to do until it's stabile ... no one needs to show, it's innate.

Sönam

By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.- Longchen Rabjam -

Sönam wrote:In this case to learn is to do until it's stabile ... no one needs to show, it's innate.

Based on that logic nobody needs to point out to me my true nature since it is innate and all I need to do is magically (ie without learning, without introduction) stabilise my abidance.

Compassion arises naturally based on the recognition of the natural state. Once the natural state is pointed out so that a person recognises it, it naturally starts to emerge under its own power. It's automatic. The only reason it's not on at 100% power all the time for everyone is that sentient beings are constantly moving away from their natural state, boxing it in with concepts. This isn't something Sonam's making up - I've heard it many times from different Dzogchen teachers and senior students.

Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal

Well, I personally am considering reincarnating as a Bangladeshi leper in my next life, coz with so much compassion going round they are going to run out of objects to pile it onto! I mean we don't want all that naturally arising non-effort it to go to waste now do we!

gregkavarnos wrote:So you are saying that true compassion only arises via pointing out? Is that why everybody here has devoted their lives to voluntarily assisting lepers in Bangladesh?

Is that what you call "true compassion"?

Sönam

By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.- Longchen Rabjam -

gregkavarnos wrote:So you are saying that true compassion only arises via pointing out? Is that why everybody here has devoted their lives to voluntarily assisting lepers in Bangladesh?

Is that what you call "true compassion"?

Sönam

Hell yes. It may not be the ultimately wisest way to direct our compassion but it sure as hell is compassionate. Let's not kid ourselves and imagine we are more compassionate simply because we are told this should happen when we actualise the nature (but in reality work and groceries seem to take up more space in the mind than the plight of others).

Some things are self-evident.

"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hellI would endure it for myriad lifetimes As your companion in practice" --- Gandavyuha Sutra

If true compassion is not compassion directed at relieving the suffering of those that are undergoing some of the worst suffering imaginable then what in Buddhas name is? I mean really! Let's get real here for a second. A healthy and capable human being directs all their energy not to advancing their own (ego centred) well being but by devoting it all to releiving the incredible suffering of others. If that is not a direct observable instance of true compassion then what is?

The capacity to walk is also innate in humans, yet a child must learn to walk. Merely showing it what walking is does not suffice.

Greg,

I don't think this is really any different from what standard Mahayana says about relative bodhicitta vs ultimate bodhicitta. One is contrived while the other is not. However, I'm not sure what Sonam is on about when he questions if dedicating one's life to helping sickly people is "true compassion." I don't think there's any doubt about it. While it's true that the uncontrived and inseparable wisdom and compassion of a Buddha--which is what all Mahayana practices aim at revealing--is certainly better because it is purely spontaneous and shaped by deeply penetrating wisdom, I think we can say that the world would be a vastly better place with more people with "contrived compassion" such as you mentioned.

And until one more significantly opens up one's realization in Dzogchen, I think one is still in need of engaging in contrived "bodhisattva activities" post-session, in everyday life. Certainly one's Dzogchen practice will inform that more and more--given one has actually ascertained rigpa--and probably one's training in compassionate conduct can open up one's heart more to one's Dzogchen practice.

FWIW, though, my impression was that actual issue of "Lamrim compassion" vs uncontrived compassion was actually about making a distinction between mouthing compassion and feeling it on the cushion--away from any actually suffering sentient beings one can perceive--while post-session one still remains self-absorbed, impatient, discompassionate, and stingy when confronted with the needs and suffering of others. I think that any practice grounded in true insight into one's nature--and here I mean sutra, tantra, Mahamudra, or Dzogchen--will send one in the direction of actual compassion.

Now we've spent an awful lot of time arguing about whether or not Dzogchen has an inherently stronger potential to get directly to the heart of the matter than other systems, and I have freely shared my opinion on that matter, but I'd personally be happier dropping that debate for good now. That topic is simply not one I ever think about privately, nor does the prospect of convincing other to adopt my views about how special Dzogchen is give me any satisfaction whatsoever... I've realized I'm thinking much more about how uneasy this strife between us is making me. This Dzogchen vs "the rest of Buddhism" debate has proven to serve no purpose because those who are firmly convinced one way or the other are not gonna budge, and why should they? They're drawn to what works for and makes sense to them and that's great. We'll each just be better off practicing the path that we feel is best for us as individuals and forget about the rest.

Last edited by Pema Rigdzin on Sun May 20, 2012 12:07 pm, edited 3 times in total.

zerwe wrote: ...Realizing that the example of the kind mother is the source of compassion

I'm not shure it's a good exemple ... it's most often an exemple of egoism, centered on herself, HER kid.

Sönam

Sönam, I can see your point. However, if we are describing it as innate the only worldly example we have

of love and compassion is in the "mother." It would seem that it is through this example of the mother, developing compassion for oneself through recognizing our own suffering,

and turning this gradually toward others that we can realize our own true nature.

Shaun

The reason that compassion is said to lead to profound realization in Mahāyāna is that gradual cultivation of compassion in an authentic way can lead to seeing the absence of identity in phenomena. This perfectly fine and wonderful.

Even more wonderful is the recognition of our real condition that unleashes the tap of compassion spontaneously.

Buddhahood does not come about because of engaging in the conditioned benefit of sentient beings. When you fully integrate with your real conditions, since compassion is innate in the basis, the needs of sentient beings are automatically satisified.

This discussion has had some benefits. So even though it seems messy there are always benefits to it. Last night I had a dream about ChNN. Not to go into the details but I understood just how patient, generous, brave and compassionate he is. These are qualities I aspire to. So however messy the path and however convoluted the discussions on this board get we still share the same goals and ambitions.

The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.