2, Marriage is for love, an agreement to love and be together for a lifetime. sex isn't only for procreation, that is what satan would say and that is what Paul warned us about,

1 Timothy 4:4 - For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving,

I'm not really sure what you are trying to get across here, but then I don't understand much of anything you say. It's the same phenomena I experience when trying to talk with a Jehovah's Witness, or the ranting handyman going on and on about the sons of Cain walk among us while trying to stroke my arm, or the Potter's church guy who tried to tell me I go to the wrong church, something about our hearts all being completely wicked, then started babbling in glossolalia before he ran from my door. I feel really bad for the kid he was dragging around with him. I think it is God protecting me from a bunch of (antonym of shinola).

Anyway, not that this has anything to do with what you said, anymore than what you said had anything to do with what I said, but marriages in the past were often arranged. Some people think those marriages were often better because people didn't have the modern notions of romantic love and the rules of courtly love to live up to.

Nor does eating, talking, thinking, drinking, playing, working, etc, Only Prayer, Believing, Loving God(YHWH: The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit), and Reading/Studying His Word, does that mean everything is a sin? no, just Keep God in Mind and remember that He created sex(what you call fornication), so thank Him for sex, for food, for love, for life, for everything He Created.

Dude, I did not say that sex within marriage is fornication. And I didn't make the rules. Fornication is sex outside of marriage. And I don't appreciate your insinuation that I don't thank God for the many blessings I have everyday, and then try to convince me to sin while you're at it.

And to remind you, the difference between eating and drinking and going to work is that those are pretty much required to sustain one's own life and the lives of our family members, and having sex is not. Nowadays secular society will try to convince you that it is necessary, but that obviously is not true.

I'm happy for you that you got over your homophobia issue. I've often thought that homophobics, (people who rant on and on and harass gay people) are actually suppressing that tendency in themselves, or they are simply afraid of male on male predation; predatory behavior from men is something a lot of women have to put up with everyday. I could have been wrong in thinking that, but whatever. Just because you've realized that you shouldn't hate other people based on their proclivities, as this is God's command to us, doesn't mean that all behavior is condoned by God. You have a logical disconnect there, as well as in other areas.

I completely disagree with what you are apparently trying to do here; which is to convince Christians to commit sins and live by your rule of sexual depravity. I'm not sure, but I wonder if you're arguing this much about it because you are really trying to convince yourself that you can sin without suffering the consequences, more than you are trying to convince anyone else. It's the same type thinking you had before when you were a homophobic, only in reverse. Both are in error.

I have good reasons to reject SavedbyChrist94's bible, religion, whatever.

So you reject The Bible? Christianity? Because what I am proclaiming is The Truth from The Scriptures.

No, you are proclaiming the truth of the Antichrist. You come on an Orthodox forum to spread filth and to lead others astray. I think that if you looked at your Bible a bit more for guidance instead of to find excuses for sin, you would see that it might be better for you to have a millstone hung around your neck and be cast into the sea.

"No, you are proclaiming the truth of the Antichrist"

Prove it, otherwise you an anti-Christ, also, the anti-Christ has no Truth in Him.

Two thousand years of the Church's teaching proves it. You have nothing, and you have no power over me. Your lies were destroyed when Christ rose from the dead.

Logged

I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Is it wrong to make an argument that eventhough the Bible doesn't explicitly condemn premarital sex as a whole, you would need to look at what the apostles wrote as a whole and infer that it is sinful.

You are attacking a windmill, SBC94

Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

2, Marriage is for love, an agreement to love and be together for a lifetime. sex isn't only for procreation, that is what satan would say and that is what Paul warned us about,

1 Timothy 4:4 - For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving,

I'm not really sure what you are trying to get across here, but then I don't understand much of anything you say. It's the same phenomena I experience when trying to talk with a Jehovah's Witness, or the ranting handyman going on and on about the sons of Cain walk among us while trying to stroke my arm, or the Potter's church guy who tried to tell me I go to the wrong church, something about our hearts all being completely wicked, then started babbling in glossolalia before he ran from my door. I feel really bad for the kid he was dragging around with him. I think it is God protecting me from a bunch of (antonym of shinola).

Anyway, not that this has anything to do with what you said, anymore than what you said had anything to do with what I said, but marriages in the past were often arranged. Some people think those marriages were often better because people didn't have the modern notions of romantic love and the rules of courtly love to live up to.

Nor does eating, talking, thinking, drinking, playing, working, etc, Only Prayer, Believing, Loving God(YHWH: The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit), and Reading/Studying His Word, does that mean everything is a sin? no, just Keep God in Mind and remember that He created sex(what you call fornication), so thank Him for sex, for food, for love, for life, for everything He Created.

Dude, I did not say that sex within marriage is fornication. And I didn't make the rules. Fornication is sex outside of marriage. And I don't appreciate your insinuation that I don't thank God for the many blessings I have everyday, and then try to convince me to sin while you're at it.

And to remind you, the difference between eating and drinking and going to work is that those are pretty much required to sustain one's own life and the lives of our family members, and having sex is not. Nowadays secular society will try to convince you that it is necessary, but that obviously is not true.

I'm happy for you that you got over your homophobia issue. I've often thought that homophobics, (people who rant on and on and harass gay people) are actually suppressing that tendency in themselves, or they are simply afraid of male on male predation; predatory behavior from men is something a lot of women have to put up with everyday. I could have been wrong in thinking that, but whatever. Just because you've realized that you shouldn't hate other people based on their proclivities, as this is God's command to us, doesn't mean that all behavior is condoned by God. You have a logical disconnect there, as well as in other areas.

I completely disagree with what you are apparently trying to do here; which is to convince Christians to commit sins and live by your rule of sexual depravity. I'm not sure, but I wonder if you're arguing this much about it because you are really trying to convince yourself that you can sin without suffering the consequences, more than you are trying to convince anyone else. It's the same type thinking you had before when you were a homophobic, only in reverse. Both are in error.

I don't have much else to say to you. I think we are at an impasse.

"Well, that's convenient for you. So as long as a man or woman doesn't charge you for gratifying your impulses, it's a lot more affordable. How practical! "

Proverbs 10:18 - The one who conceals hatred has lying lips, and whoever utters slander is a fool.

"I'm not really sure what you are trying to get across here, but then I don't understand much of anything you say. It's the same phenomena I experience when trying to talk with a Jehovah's Witness, or the ranting handyman going on and on about the sons of Cain walk among us while trying to stroke my arm, or the Potter's church guy who tried to tell me I go to the wrong church, something about our hearts all being completely wicked, then started babbling in glossolalia before he ran from my door. I feel really bad for the kid he was dragging around with him. I think it is God protecting me from a bunch of (antonym of shinola)."

Anyway, not that this has anything to do with what you said, anymore than what you said had anything to do with what I said, but marriages in the past were often arranged. Some people think those marriages were often better because people didn't have the modern notions of romantic love and the rules of courtly love to live up to."

That was cultural, God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) allows us to marry or be with whom we choose.

"You seem to be cherry picking the Bible to suit your fancies. "

What fancies? Notice the assumption, I'm the guy who actually prefers one to make it happen with that special person due to a little jealousy issue, but due to your assumption I will pull Scripture,

John 7:24 Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.”, This guy assumes that I want to suit "fancies" when he doesn't even know me.

"Dude, I did not say that sex within marriage is fornication. And I didn't make the rules. Fornication is sex outside of marriage."

And Fornication isn't condemned in The Bible, Prostitution is, Porneas has 2 meanings.

"And I don't appreciate your insinuation that I don't thank God for the many blessings I have everyday, "

Never did that, I said it in general.

"and then try to convince me to sin while you're at it."

Where? I try to convince you to stop sinning with pharisee man made laws and adding to The Word of God(The Bible)

And to remind you, the difference between eating and drinking and going to work is that those are pretty much required to sustain one's own life and the lives of our family members, and having sex is not.

Actually sex is, no sex, no continuation of life. also since that's the case and if you're not a hypocrite, you will easily just eat wheat for every meal, since according to you selfish pleasure(such as taste) that isn't necessary and the main reason for eating is to live and since you deem pleasure a "selfish" desire, then if you are not a hypocrite you'll give up TV, eat just wheat, etc, obviously not, as God made pleasure the Main Purpose in life, our purpose is to get Pleasure in God with ourselves and others and what He gives out of His love for us and to Love God(YHWH: The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit). That is what you do with every breath, so please don't be a hypocrite.

Nowadays secular society will try to convince you that it is necessary, but that obviously is not true.

I'm happy for you that you got over your homophobia issue. I've often thought that homophobics, (people who rant on and on and harass gay people) are actually suppressing that tendency in themselves, or they are simply afraid of male on male predation; predatory behavior from men is something a lot of women have to put up with everyday.

I wouldn't deem myself a hateful homophobe, as deep down I felt bad about it and had to force myself because of The Bible and being raised that way

I could have been wrong in thinking that, but whatever. Just because you've realized that you shouldn't hate other people based on their proclivities, as this is God's command to us, doesn't mean that all behavior is condoned by God. You have a logical disconnect there, as well as in other areas.

That isn't the reason why I came to know that Homosexuality is ok and not a sin. after doing alot of studying and my heart was touched. found out it wasn't a sin, and realized that all along it was wrong to condemn homosexuality. I used to get intrusive thoughts because of it. before I was Saved, I never had a problem with Homosexuality, we'd make fun of those who are Homosexual but never hated them and actually supported their cause, when I became Saved and thought it was a sin is when I had to fight it til I got used to it being a sin, because I thought God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) condemned it, now because of this I get scared that when I thought I had God in my life(the time when I condemned Homosexuality) that I was not really Saved, now I feel even more Saved due to repenting of my sin of condemning what is not sin.

Lets look at what has happened since then, I(By The Holy Spirit)

- I Refuted The Problem of Suffering

- I Proved why we need to eat animals

- I disproved "atheism" and Penal Substitution.

All because of The Holy Spirit showing me that it ain't a sin.I completely disagree with what you are apparently trying to do here; which is to convince Christians to commit sins and live by your rule of sexual depravity.

That is funny, because I completely disagree with what you are apparently trying to do here; which is to convince Christians to commit sins(calling sin to what is not a sin) and live by your rule of sexual depravity.(Oppressing others by adding words to The Word of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit)

I'm not sure, but I wonder if you're arguing this much about it because you are really trying to convince yourself that you can sin without suffering the consequences, more than you are trying to convince anyone else. It's the same type thinking you had before when you were a homophobic, only in reverse. Both are in error.

Actually when I was homophobic and your current view are Hell-bound, luckily I was Saved from a false doctrine, and proved Homosexuality is not a sin.

"I don't have much else to say to you. I think we are at an impasse."

Basically waving the White Flag.

Let this debate serve as a prime example of when you believe man(the so called "church" which isn't The True Church) above or instead of The Bible(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit's Word)

I have good reasons to reject SavedbyChrist94's bible, religion, whatever.

So you reject The Bible? Christianity? Because what I am proclaiming is The Truth from The Scriptures.

No, you are proclaiming the truth of the Antichrist. You come on an Orthodox forum to spread filth and to lead others astray. I think that if you looked at your Bible a bit more for guidance instead of to find excuses for sin, you would see that it might be better for you to have a millstone hung around your neck and be cast into the sea.

"No, you are proclaiming the truth of the Antichrist"

Prove it, otherwise you an anti-Christ, also, the anti-Christ has no Truth in Him.

Two thousand years of the Church's teaching proves it. You have nothing, and you have no power over me. Your lies were destroyed when Christ rose from the dead.

Which Church? Do you know what The Church is? it is not to be a denomination, so therefore orthodox ain't The Church. of course I have no power over you.

Also, I presented you Facts from The Bible, are you saying Christ lied when in His Word all the things I argue for are there? I will reverse you and say that your lies were destroyed when Jesus Christ rose from the dead.

You are placed on post moderation for 99 days because of your egregious violation of the policy regarding discussions on homosexuality:"1) The administration of OCnet fully supports the Orthodox Church's position that homosexual relations are sinful.

2) Discussion will again be allowed openly, but those expressing positions contrary to the received tradition of the Orthodox Church will need to respect the fact that the Orthodox Church's teaching is not under question, and that their positions are at variance with the consensus of the Church. What this means practically is that anyone expressing the position that active homosexual practices can somehow be reconciled with the Orthodox Church's teaching will be allowed to offer this position if they do so respectfully and with the understanding that their position is novel. Anyone arguing vocally or in a belligerent way that the Orthodox Church's teaching is wrong or that it will be changed at some point of the future will be moderated per the normal moderatorial procedure in place.

The goal here is to affirm the traditional Orthodox teaching, not forcibly subject Orthodox Christians on an Orthodox forum to novel opinions, while allow discussion on a topic which for whatever reason engenders more than normally passionate debate and discord.[/b]

We state unequivocally that those who have a homosexual orientation, if it can be scientifically determined to be such, or who struggle with a temptation towards homosexuality, are accepted and loved as brothers and sisters, and are welcome in the Church, even if they have failings as do we all. Our upholding of the traditional Orthodox position as the website administration does not seek to discount individuals and their real struggles."

If you do not agree with this decision, please PM me. Carl Kraeff (Second Chance), Section Moderator[/color]

Nope, using one that's used in Biblelexicon.org, as it is most literal, BUT if you want tell me what translation you'd like me to use and I'll still destroy the pharisee arguments.

Also, all translations are bad, you want The Truth? Go to the Greeks, for example in the translations, Matthew 5:28 would look like it says looking at a woman would be a sin, however in The Originals it says coveting a wife(aka looking to commit adultery) which makes sense as looking at a woman isn't adultery and whoever says it is adds to God's Word.

Also, all translations are bad, you want The Truth? Go to the Greeks, for example in the translations, Matthew 5:28 would look like it says looking at a woman would be a sin, however in The Originals it says coveting a wife(aka looking to commit adultery) which makes sense as looking at a woman isn't adultery and whoever says it is adds to God's Word.

I have good reasons to reject SavedbyChrist94's bible, religion, whatever.

So you reject The Bible? Christianity? Because what I am proclaiming is The Truth from The Scriptures.

No, you are proclaiming the truth of the Antichrist. You come on an Orthodox forum to spread filth and to lead others astray. I think that if you looked at your Bible a bit more for guidance instead of to find excuses for sin, you would see that it might be better for you to have a millstone hung around your neck and be cast into the sea.

"No, you are proclaiming the truth of the Antichrist"

Prove it, otherwise you an anti-Christ, also, the anti-Christ has no Truth in Him.

Two thousand years of the Church's teaching proves it. You have nothing, and you have no power over me. Your lies were destroyed when Christ rose from the dead.

Also, I presented you Facts from The Bible, are you saying Christ lied when in His Word all the things I argue for are there? I will reverse you and say that your lies were destroyed when Jesus Christ rose from the dead.

The Devil has been judged; yet, he is allowed to roam the earth and take advantage of unsuspecting souls by telling them it is OK to be homosexual, to fornicate, to have abortions and to have pre-marital sex.

I have good reasons to reject SavedbyChrist94's bible, religion, whatever.

So you reject The Bible? Christianity? Because what I am proclaiming is The Truth from The Scriptures.

No, you are proclaiming the truth of the Antichrist. You come on an Orthodox forum to spread filth and to lead others astray. I think that if you looked at your Bible a bit more for guidance instead of to find excuses for sin, you would see that it might be better for you to have a millstone hung around your neck and be cast into the sea.

"No, you are proclaiming the truth of the Antichrist"

Prove it, otherwise you an anti-Christ, also, the anti-Christ has no Truth in Him.

Two thousand years of the Church's teaching proves it. You have nothing, and you have no power over me. Your lies were destroyed when Christ rose from the dead.

Also, I presented you Facts from The Bible, are you saying Christ lied when in His Word all the things I argue for are there? I will reverse you and say that your lies were destroyed when Jesus Christ rose from the dead.

The Devil has been judged; yet, he is allowed to roam the earth and take advantage of unsuspecting souls by telling them it is OK to be homosexual, to fornicate, to have abortions and to have pre-marital sex.

"The Devil has been judged; yet, he is allowed to roam the earth and take advantage of unsuspecting souls by telling them it is OK to be homosexual, to fornicate, to have abortions and to have pre-marital sex."

Woah woah woah, never said abortion is a sin, that's an obvious sin. The others though, not a sin.

Now onto the next part, It's backwards hypocrite, the devil has been judged and tells indoctrinated, souls that it is ok to add to God's Word and condemn Homosexuality, to say that YHWH's Gift of Sexuality is wrong and one cannot have sex until marriage despite songs of solomon, that's it ok to have Faith "alone" or the false doctrine of penal substitution, or that abortions(murder) would be ok.

pharisees are in the same league as an "atheist" and abortionist, there is no difference.

"Orthodox Christians do. You don't."

It's an impossibility for The Original Church to exist, man has made up their own doctrines, at least one needs to have been added, therefore Orthodox Church isn't The Original Church, The Church only exists as Believers in The Gospel, that's it.

Also, all translations are bad, you want The Truth? Go to the Greeks, for example in the translations, Matthew 5:28 would look like it says looking at a woman would be a sin, however in The Originals it says coveting a wife(aka looking to commit adultery) which makes sense as looking at a woman isn't adultery and whoever says it is adds to God's Word.

What are "The Originals?"

Greek Manuscripts. also like I said because you keep bringing up the NASB version, " if you want tell me what translation you'd like me to use and I'll still destroy the pharisee arguments."

I have good reasons to reject SavedbyChrist94's bible, religion, whatever.

So you reject The Bible? Christianity? Because what I am proclaiming is The Truth from The Scriptures.

No, you are proclaiming the truth of the Antichrist. You come on an Orthodox forum to spread filth and to lead others astray. I think that if you looked at your Bible a bit more for guidance instead of to find excuses for sin, you would see that it might be better for you to have a millstone hung around your neck and be cast into the sea.

"No, you are proclaiming the truth of the Antichrist"

Prove it, otherwise you an anti-Christ, also, the anti-Christ has no Truth in Him.

Two thousand years of the Church's teaching proves it. You have nothing, and you have no power over me. Your lies were destroyed when Christ rose from the dead.

Also, I presented you Facts from The Bible, are you saying Christ lied when in His Word all the things I argue for are there? I will reverse you and say that your lies were destroyed when Jesus Christ rose from the dead.

The Devil has been judged; yet, he is allowed to roam the earth and take advantage of unsuspecting souls by telling them it is OK to be homosexual, to fornicate, to have abortions and to have pre-marital sex.

"The Devil has been judged; yet, he is allowed to roam the earth and take advantage of unsuspecting souls by telling them it is OK to be homosexual, to fornicate, to have abortions and to have pre-marital sex."

Woah woah woah, never said abortion is a sin, that's an obvious sin. The others though, not a sin.

the devil has been judged and tells indoctrinated, souls that it is ok to add to God's Word and condemn Homosexuality, to say that YHWH's Gift of Sexuality is wrong and one cannot have sex until marriage despite songs of solomon, that's it ok to have Faith "alone" or the false doctrine of penal substitution, or that abortions(murder) would be ok.

pharisees are in the same league as an "atheist" and abortionist, there is no difference.

It's an impossibility for The Original Church to exist, man has made up their own doctrines, at least one needs to have been added, therefore Orthodox Church isn't The Original Church, The Church only exists as Believers in The Gospel, that's it.

You're not the only forum member who believes that the "Original Church" has disappeared.

Also, all translations are bad, you want The Truth? Go to the Greeks, for example in the translations, Matthew 5:28 would look like it says looking at a woman would be a sin, however in The Originals it says coveting a wife(aka looking to commit adultery) which makes sense as looking at a woman isn't adultery and whoever says it is adds to God's Word.

What are "The Originals?"

Greek Manuscripts. also like I said because you keep bringing up the NASB version, " if you want tell me what translation you'd like me to use and I'll still destroy the pharisee arguments."

They must be your teachers. They worked on the original and updated NASB.

Matthew 21:31 - Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you."

The bible was written mostly by Jews, some Jews that became Christians. The Jews considered in their culture that fornication was sexually immoral. You can see evidence in this with Mary and her being a virgin and the concern of her community.

It is "common knowledge from the authors" and the bible doesn't explicitly list every single sexual act.... The bible doesn't talk about running around in bondage gear for example.... This type of stuff would undoubtedly be considered immoral in the times of the authors.

Also, all translations are bad, you want The Truth? Go to the Greeks, for example in the translations, Matthew 5:28 would look like it says looking at a woman would be a sin, however in The Originals it says coveting a wife(aka looking to commit adultery) which makes sense as looking at a woman isn't adultery and whoever says it is adds to God's Word.

What are "The Originals?"

Greek Manuscripts. also like I said because you keep bringing up the NASB version, " if you want tell me what translation you'd like me to use and I'll still destroy the pharisee arguments."

Also, all translations are bad, you want The Truth? Go to the Greeks, for example in the translations, Matthew 5:28 would look like it says looking at a woman would be a sin, however in The Originals it says coveting a wife(aka looking to commit adultery) which makes sense as looking at a woman isn't adultery and whoever says it is adds to God's Word.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

Because it is a Proven Fact that you failed to refute, John 1:1(I'd argue John's whole Gospel), Genesis 1:26-27, The Great Commission, 1 John 5:7, Acts, Hebrews 1 clearly says Jesus Christ is God, even The Father calls Him God,)

I am not trying to refute the Trinity. I am simply showing you your own hypocrisy and cherry picking abilities.

So which books of the bible do you actually accept? I know of at least five you dismiss right now simply based off of your inadequate understanding of God's condemnation of homosexuality.

"I am not trying to refute the Trinity. I am simply showing you your own hypocrisy and cherry picking abilities."

What hypocrisy? The Bible Clearly says The Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ are God, so The Father is God, Jesus Christ is God, and The Holy Spirit is God, yet God is One, but then you read Genesis 1:26-27 and you find out God who is one is yet multipersonal, now if there are more persons I would have found so, but only 3, so that means God is 3 persons yet 1, aka Trinity, there is no cherry picking, just crystal clear as day facts.

"So which books of the bible do you actually accept?" All

"I know of at least five you dismiss right now simply based off of your inadequate understanding of God's condemnation of homosexuality."

Which ones, also God doesn't condemn homosexuality. I already know at least Five books in which you add your satanistic bigotry to The Word, if you studied, you would see, no homosexuality.

I have seen people present a message like yours before while attempting to infiltrate a local church. One of two things happens as a result. The church both withers and dies, or the person is chased out and the church continues to thrive.

Nope, using one that's used in Biblelexicon.org, as it is most literal, BUT if you want tell me what translation you'd like me to use and I'll still destroy the pharisee arguments.

Also, all translations are bad, you want The Truth? Go to the Greeks, for example in the translations, Matthew 5:28 would look like it says looking at a woman would be a sin, however in The Originals it says coveting a wife(aka looking to commit adultery) which makes sense as looking at a woman isn't adultery and whoever says it is adds to God's Word.

So you know Greek?

Logged

That is the land of lost content, I see it shining plain, The happy highways where I went And cannot come again.-A.E. Housman

Calling people names like "hypocrite" and "antichrist" is not a nice thing to do.

Then Jesus and His apostles were not nice men.

"Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ. (Ephesians 4:15)"

I think I prefer this approach.

But does love = nice? When Jesus called the Pharisees hypocrites and white-washed tombs, He wasn't speaking the truth in love? From my own personal experience, I can tell you that one of the most loving things anyone ever did for me was slap me upside the head with a proverbial 2-by-4.

I know you're speaking to SBC94, but the words you address to him undermine also the legitimate way some of us have related to him.

Also, all translations are bad, you want The Truth? Go to the Greeks, for example in the translations, Matthew 5:28 would look like it says looking at a woman would be a sin, however in The Originals it says coveting a wife(aka looking to commit adultery) which makes sense as looking at a woman isn't adultery and whoever says it is adds to God's Word.

What are "The Originals?"

Greek Manuscripts. also like I said because you keep bringing up the NASB version, " if you want tell me what translation you'd like me to use and I'll still destroy the pharisee arguments."

now lets go through all the definitions of epithumēsai( I long for, covet, lust after, set the heart upon.) and see which can be put in the proper sentence,

Lust is a desire, not an action even diliberate lust isn't doing something, an action is something you do, whoever looks at a woman in order to, means in order to do something, do what? lust is an emotion, a desire, etc, not an action, so this definition is null and void. if Jesus Christ meant lusting after a woman was a sin, then He would have said, whoever looks at a woman AND lust, etc, but He said whoever looks at a woman IN ORDER TO, so it's to do something, added with epithumesai is a verb, an action.

Since pros to makes this an action, whether you like it or not, lust long for, and set the heart upon definitions are out.

Now, the last definition would be Covet, lets see,

Matthew 5:27-28 - You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman in order to covet her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Added with the fact that the word for covet and woman/wife are the same in Exodus 20:17(Septuagint)

The intent of the look for for a purpose, the purpose of what? in order to do what? and that in order to do is epithumesai(verb) her

So it should be rendered,

You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a married woman(as same word for woman/wife is used in Septuagint version of 10th Commandment) with the intention(due to looking at a woman in order to epithumesai(verb) her) of taking her(stealing her from the husband or cheating with her due to 10th Commandment) has already committed adultery(Sex between married person and someone outside of relationship, aka cheating) with her in his heart.

So Jesus Christ is just retelling the law(Thou Shall Not Commit Adultery and 10th Commandment), He never added to The Law, The Law He originally gave at The Exodus was Fine.

why? read the link and the fact that The 8th Commandment "Thou Shall Not Steal" uses the word ganab which can mean Kidnap

God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) gave commandments, prohibitions, on actions, which fits the entire context, desire is a natural thing that can BECOME sin, want proof?

James 1:15 - Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

Desire can cause sin but isn't sin.

Therefore God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) condemned slavery and sexually desiring a woman isn't a sin,

Proverbs 5:18-19 Let your fountain be blessed, and rejoice in the wife of your youth, a lovely deer, a graceful doe. Let her breasts fill you at all times with delight; be intoxicated always in her love

Song of Solomon 7:7-8

Your stature is like a palm tree, and your breasts are like its clusters. I say I will climb the palm tree and lay hold of its fruit. Oh may your breasts be like clusters of the vine, and the scent of your breath like apples,

Song of Solomon 8:10 I was a wall, and my breasts were like towers; then I was in his eyes as one who finds peace.

The True 10 Commandments are,

1, You shall have no other gods before Yahweh(The True God, The Trinity of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit)2, You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.3, Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy4, You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.5, Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you.6, You shall not murder.7, You shall not commit adultery.8, You shall not Kidnap9, You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.10, “You shall not take(steal) your neighbor’s house. You shall not take(steal) your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”

and Matthew 5:27-28 is, "You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a married woman with the intention of taking her(stealing her from the husband or cheating with her) has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

Basically, Jesus Christ is saying, you know to not commit adultery, do not even plan or intend on taking(or cheating) with a woman, because it's as if you already did so.

Which fits well with The Rest of The Sermon of The Mount because remember,

Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Jesus Christ never abolished or added any laws, The laws He gave at the exodus were fine.

For example on Oaths

Matthew 5:33 “Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’ 34 But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36 And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37 All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.[g]

Jesus Christ was just telling us how to accomplish the law, so for adultery(cheating, unfaithfulness, can only be committed by a married person and someone else(aka cheating) He said don't even plan to do it(like King David remember)

Also, all translations are bad, you want The Truth? Go to the Greeks, for example in the translations, Matthew 5:28 would look like it says looking at a woman would be a sin, however in The Originals it says coveting a wife(aka looking to commit adultery) which makes sense as looking at a woman isn't adultery and whoever says it is adds to God's Word.

What are "The Originals?"

Greek Manuscripts. also like I said because you keep bringing up the NASB version, " if you want tell me what translation you'd like me to use and I'll still destroy the pharisee arguments."

now lets go through all the definitions of epithumēsai( I long for, covet, lust after, set the heart upon.) and see which can be put in the proper sentence,

Lust is a desire, not an action even diliberate lust isn't doing something, an action is something you do, whoever looks at a woman in order to, means in order to do something, do what? lust is an emotion, a desire, etc, not an action, so this definition is null and void. if Jesus Christ meant lusting after a woman was a sin, then He would have said, whoever looks at a woman AND lust, etc, but He said whoever looks at a woman IN ORDER TO, so it's to do something, added with epithumesai is a verb, an action.

Since pros to makes this an action, whether you like it or not, lust long for, and set the heart upon definitions are out.

Now, the last definition would be Covet, lets see,

Matthew 5:27-28 - You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman in order to covet her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Added with the fact that the word for covet and woman/wife are the same in Exodus 20:17(Septuagint)

The intent of the look for for a purpose, the purpose of what? in order to do what? and that in order to do is epithumesai(verb) her

So it should be rendered,

You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a married woman(as same word for woman/wife is used in Septuagint version of 10th Commandment) with the intention(due to looking at a woman in order to epithumesai(verb) her) of taking her(stealing her from the husband or cheating with her due to 10th Commandment) has already committed adultery(Sex between married person and someone outside of relationship, aka cheating) with her in his heart.

So Jesus Christ is just retelling the law(Thou Shall Not Commit Adultery and 10th Commandment), He never added to The Law, The Law He originally gave at The Exodus was Fine.

why? read the link and the fact that The 8th Commandment "Thou Shall Not Steal" uses the word ganab which can mean Kidnap

God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) gave commandments, prohibitions, on actions, which fits the entire context, desire is a natural thing that can BECOME sin, want proof?

James 1:15 - Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

Desire can cause sin but isn't sin.

Therefore God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) condemned slavery and sexually desiring a woman isn't a sin,

Proverbs 5:18-19 Let your fountain be blessed, and rejoice in the wife of your youth, a lovely deer, a graceful doe. Let her breasts fill you at all times with delight; be intoxicated always in her love

Song of Solomon 7:7-8

Your stature is like a palm tree, and your breasts are like its clusters. I say I will climb the palm tree and lay hold of its fruit. Oh may your breasts be like clusters of the vine, and the scent of your breath like apples,

Song of Solomon 8:10 I was a wall, and my breasts were like towers; then I was in his eyes as one who finds peace.

The True 10 Commandments are,

1, You shall have no other gods before Yahweh(The True God, The Trinity of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit)2, You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.3, Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy4, You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.5, Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you.6, You shall not murder.7, You shall not commit adultery.8, You shall not Kidnap9, You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.10, “You shall not take(steal) your neighbor’s house. You shall not take(steal) your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”

and Matthew 5:27-28 is, "You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a married woman with the intention of taking her(stealing her from the husband or cheating with her) has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

Basically, Jesus Christ is saying, you know to not commit adultery, do not even plan or intend on taking(or cheating) with a woman, because it's as if you already did so.

Which fits well with The Rest of The Sermon of The Mount because remember,

Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Jesus Christ never abolished or added any laws, The laws He gave at the exodus were fine.

For example on Oaths

Matthew 5:33 “Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’ 34 But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36 And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37 All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.[g]

Jesus Christ was just telling us how to accomplish the law, so for adultery(cheating, unfaithfulness, can only be committed by a married person and someone else(aka cheating) He said don't even plan to do it(like King David remember)

...It starting to seem to me like most people reject the Bible or Christianity for really bad reasons, mostly just 'feelings,' not liking its morality or simply not understanding it. The second especially in regards to sex (probably the #1 reason) - but of course "I don't like it" or "I want to do whatever I want to do" is really a foolish criteria for determining truth. The third mainly has to do with that the Bible requires a lot more literary and rhetorical knowledge to appreciate then most people have (just having the concept of hyperbole would go a long way, there's people that reject Christianity because they really think Jesus asks them to despise their family).

Does anyone know of any books dealing with any of this? Christianity is loosing people not because people are making hard decisions and sifting the wheat from the chaff.. its really just because people 1) Are thinking with their emotions 2) Can read the bible but don't really know what it means sometimes.

Poor Jason's thread! Are you getting some other ideas as to why some people reject Christianity.

Matthew 5:27-28 is, "You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a married woman with the intention of taking her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Matthew 5:33 “Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’ 34 But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36 And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37 All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.[g]

But lets use The Very Orthodox Books themselves(Early Church Fathers) to prove this,

You do realise that any woman not married to you belongs to another, don't you?

Okay, sigh, there, I fixed it so I could read it. Thanks Arachne, that helped a lot!

I totally get it now. Desire or thinking a thought isn't a sin in and of itself, it's just when we continue to entertain that thought then action becomes more likely, then if we act on the bad thought, we have fallen into sin. I think of it as an affliction to not be able to easily turn my mind to other things. Some things are just upsetting, but I'm practicing at just putting things aside.

Saved By Christ, you don't happen to live next to me do you? Are you a skinny guy with brown hair and blue eyes who feeds the crows every morning?

(ok, so this is going to be kinda vague since I'm trying to keep it short)

It starting to seem to me like most people reject the Bible or Christianity for really bad reasons, mostly just 'feelings,' not liking its morality or simply not understanding it. The second especially in regards to sex (probably the #1 reason) - but of course "I don't like it" or "I want to do whatever I want to do" is really a foolish criteria for determining truth. The third mainly has to do with that the Bible requires a lot more literary and rhetorical knowledge to appreciate then most people have (just having the concept of hyperbole would go a long way, there's people that reject Christianity because they really think Jesus asks them to despise their family).

Does anyone know of any books dealing with any of this? Christianity is loosing people not because people are making hard decisions and sifting the wheat from the chaff.. its really just because people 1) Are thinking with their emotions 2) Can read the bible but don't really know what it means sometimes.

Also, all translations are bad, you want The Truth? Go to the Greeks, for example in the translations, Matthew 5:28 would look like it says looking at a woman would be a sin, however in The Originals it says coveting a wife(aka looking to commit adultery) which makes sense as looking at a woman isn't adultery and whoever says it is adds to God's Word.

What are "The Originals?"

Greek Manuscripts. also like I said because you keep bringing up the NASB version, " if you want tell me what translation you'd like me to use and I'll still destroy the pharisee arguments."

now lets go through all the definitions of epithumēsai( I long for, covet, lust after, set the heart upon.) and see which can be put in the proper sentence,

Lust is a desire, not an action even diliberate lust isn't doing something, an action is something you do, whoever looks at a woman in order to, means in order to do something, do what? lust is an emotion, a desire, etc, not an action, so this definition is null and void. if Jesus Christ meant lusting after a woman was a sin, then He would have said, whoever looks at a woman AND lust, etc, but He said whoever looks at a woman IN ORDER TO, so it's to do something, added with epithumesai is a verb, an action.

Since pros to makes this an action, whether you like it or not, lust long for, and set the heart upon definitions are out.

Now, the last definition would be Covet, lets see,

Matthew 5:27-28 - You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman in order to covet her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Added with the fact that the word for covet and woman/wife are the same in Exodus 20:17(Septuagint)

The intent of the look for for a purpose, the purpose of what? in order to do what? and that in order to do is epithumesai(verb) her

So it should be rendered,

You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a married woman(as same word for woman/wife is used in Septuagint version of 10th Commandment) with the intention(due to looking at a woman in order to epithumesai(verb) her) of taking her(stealing her from the husband or cheating with her due to 10th Commandment) has already committed adultery(Sex between married person and someone outside of relationship, aka cheating) with her in his heart.

So Jesus Christ is just retelling the law(Thou Shall Not Commit Adultery and 10th Commandment), He never added to The Law, The Law He originally gave at The Exodus was Fine.

why? read the link and the fact that The 8th Commandment "Thou Shall Not Steal" uses the word ganab which can mean Kidnap

God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) gave commandments, prohibitions, on actions, which fits the entire context, desire is a natural thing that can BECOME sin, want proof?

James 1:15 - Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

Desire can cause sin but isn't sin.

Therefore God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) condemned slavery and sexually desiring a woman isn't a sin,

Proverbs 5:18-19 Let your fountain be blessed, and rejoice in the wife of your youth, a lovely deer, a graceful doe. Let her breasts fill you at all times with delight; be intoxicated always in her love

Song of Solomon 7:7-8

Your stature is like a palm tree, and your breasts are like its clusters. I say I will climb the palm tree and lay hold of its fruit. Oh may your breasts be like clusters of the vine, and the scent of your breath like apples,

Song of Solomon 8:10 I was a wall, and my breasts were like towers; then I was in his eyes as one who finds peace.

The True 10 Commandments are,

1, You shall have no other gods before Yahweh(The True God, The Trinity of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit)2, You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.3, Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy4, You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.5, Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you.6, You shall not murder.7, You shall not commit adultery.8, You shall not Kidnap9, You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.10, “You shall not take(steal) your neighbor’s house. You shall not take(steal) your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”

and Matthew 5:27-28 is, "You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a married woman with the intention of taking her(stealing her from the husband or cheating with her) has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

Basically, Jesus Christ is saying, you know to not commit adultery, do not even plan or intend on taking(or cheating) with a woman, because it's as if you already did so.

Which fits well with The Rest of The Sermon of The Mount because remember,

Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Jesus Christ never abolished or added any laws, The laws He gave at the exodus were fine.

For example on Oaths

Matthew 5:33 “Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’ 34 But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36 And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37 All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.[g]

Jesus Christ was just telling us how to accomplish the law, so for adultery(cheating, unfaithfulness, can only be committed by a married person and someone else(aka cheating) He said don't even plan to do it(like King David remember)

Lust isn't a sin and even The Orthodox Church agrees, so disagree with me and disagree with The Church.

I get it. You have your eye on a particular avatar, and think that if you can convince her that "lust is not a sin" that a date for next saturday night opens up. Stay away from my parishioners, and from my deanery. Actually, just stay away from everyone before you do 5000 prostrations. BTW, stop hijacking Jason's thread.