> You just go on watching closely, and keeping me honest, Ron; you're
> bound to catch a major mistake sooner or later; probably not as
> glaring as recommending garden hose for transporting fuel gas, but you
> never know.. :-)
> Mikey

Hi, Dave. I agree with your main point; that the burners will probably run quite differently after they re placed in casting furnaces. I m also not surprised

Message 2 of 19
, Feb 24, 2013

0 Attachment

Hi, Dave.
I agree with your main point; that the burners will probably run quite differently after they're placed in casting furnaces. I'm also not surprised that your excellent burner doesn't have the vortex burner's potential "problems." Your burner uses a squirrel cage blower, which provides positive force , and depends on the funnel alone to provide spin. My burner is designed to provide high forward momentum and spin with as low a positive pressure as can be avoided. Nevertheless, your comments about running the burner already placed within the furnace should apply. I'm experimenting with a whole series of burner sizes, and am running them "out in the open" at present.

As with other safety admonitions for any equipment, I have to describe a worst case scenario, where someone has managed to jump all the tracks. Nevertheless, some will undoubtedly do so; they're who painstaking safety admonitions are always aimed at. The first place people will run these burners will be out in the open, during testing. What procedures they will use when running them in coffee-can furnaces is farther along than I've gotten, thus far. Once the burner is positioned in a furnace the operator is really lighting the furnace (the whole heating system), rather than just a burner. Once I get that far, there might have to be another set of instructions based on what I observe, then., but even after building and testing is done, I use these burners in the open air all the time for hand brazing; others will too. I also plan to run them in chip forges, and brazing stations, neither of which will support the flame like a casting furnace. So, the opening safety precautions in my Vortex burner chapter will have to remain. It will be interesting to see if they get added to or not.
Mikey

Mike, I'm assuming now. If your running your burner in a foundry furnace, you won't have these problems, if you follow proper starting and stopping the burner. To start with I designed my own burner venturi(funnel). I've had none of the problems you described.

To start the burner in the furnace, every thing is off. I put a piece of burning news paper in the furnace. With the lid open I start the gas with the restrictor on the blower wide open. The gas will ignite and i bring the gas up to about 5-7 psi. After a minute I or so turn the restrictor down to about 1/4 open and turn on the blower. Then it's just adjust the burner for the type of metal your melting.

The burner tube is about 9" and extends about 1" into the frunace. The blower is all metal and has never gotten hot when left in the furnace.

When shutting down I normally shut the gas off first, but I can shut down either one first.

If built right(like mine;-) there should be no back pressure, just some additional air and an accelerated flame. All this does is increase the flame temp, some. adjustments are the same as any other type of burner, air flow and gas pressure.

Jamie C., I think your comments are good. All you guys are kind of reminding me that I need to write up the safety instructions for regular fan-blowers in the

Message 4 of 19
, Feb 24, 2013

0 Attachment

Jamie C.,
I think your comments are good. All you guys are kind of reminding me that I need to write up the safety instructions for regular fan-blowers in the chapter that precedes Vortex burners. Yes...that is a smart thing to do. Unfortunately, a friend just forwarded about the most hilarious Viagra jokes I ever read...and my brain is simply burned out at the moment.
Mikey

Hmmmm - I always start my fan first, then turn up the gas, and then light
it - never had a problem and I've never experienced any blow back or any
thing at all other than what I expect - I figure to get the gas moving in
the right direction first, then light it - just my experience with my home
built propane torch

> **
>
>
>
>
> Vortex Burners
>
> Warning: All fan-blown burners have a greater risk of
> backfire�through the fan instead of proper combustion through the
> flame nozzle�than (properly built) naturally aspirated burners do.
> If you want the increased heat output of a powered burner, this
> possibility goes along with it.
>
> A fire ball from burn-back does the motor no good; it can burn your
> hands or face if you're careless enough to position them behind the
> fan.
>
> It is necessary to ignite the fuel/air mixture from the burner's
> forward end (in front of the flame nozzle), BEFORE STARTING THE FAN
> MOTOR. Never attempt to light the burner from its rear (through the
> fan). Do not expose a burner's fan area to heat or other ignition
> sources, and trap the burner securely in place before allowing fuel gas
> to enter it.
>
> Keep yourself well clear of the area behind the burner during its
> ignition and operation.
>
> During shutdown, stop the gas feed BEFORE STOPPING THE FAN MOTOR.
>
> The fan must be left running after shutting off the gas feed, until the
> heating equipment is completely cooled down and ready to be stored, or
> the burner must be removed from the equipment at shutdown. If the burner
> is removed, still shut off the gas feed first, and let the fan cool the
> burner to room temperature before cutting power to it.
>
> Fans installed on this burner series create some back pressure from the
> funnel area, which can pick up fuel gas, if the normal process of air
> entrainment is allowed to reverse; this can happen if the flame is
> blocked at the flame nozzle.
>
> Running stronger fan motors than recommended for a given burner
> increases back pressure, thus escalating the danger from ignoring the
> safety procedures given here.
>
> If the fan diameter is kept at no more than three times the mixing tube
> diameter, you greatly reduce back pressure. Longer funnel shapes hinder
> forward vortical force less than shorter funnel shapes, also reducing
> back pressure. Even the best fan burner design can suffer a fire through
> the fan, if you physically block its flame while the burner is running
> (ex. allowing the burner to fall over on its nozzle during operation).
> Secure the burner in position before running it.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

For discussion of Metal Casting and related issues
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After working in the HVAC industry for more than 30 years I have seen many a problem with burners becoming blocked and getting blow back in the fan area. I

Message 5 of 19
, Feb 24, 2013

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After working in the HVAC industry for more than 30 years I have seen many a problem with burners becoming blocked and getting blow back in the fan area. I have also experienced blow back in a natural aspirated propane burner when a crucible burst and the melt caused sudden blockage. I have tested my version of the vortex funnel burner to see what would happen if a sudden blockage would occur and experienced a fire ball out through the fan, safety is no joke and when building equipment one must think of all the stupid possibilities and should it happen how to prevent injury

Wonk

--- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, michael.a.porter@... wrote:
>
> Ah well, I get that alright; fortunately only my close friends know how many safety rules I break personally...
>
>

David Patterson

Mike I think it s just a different way of thinking. I built my burners for a foundry furnace and it could be used in a forge. I have no intention of using it

Message 6 of 19
, Feb 24, 2013

0 Attachment

Mike I think it's just a different way of thinking. I built my burners for a foundry furnace and it could be used in a forge. I have no intention of using it outside of the foundry furnace. I do like your first burners and that I would use in a forge. I tend to think that the furnace and burner as a unit, then gage it's efficiency. Using a furnace/forge burner outside the furnace,to me give little info. Looking at melt times, gas psi and air inlet size for a specific melt, aluminum or brass, in my case, gives me more info. Looks like you're looking for something more.

Hi, Dave.
I agree with your main point; that the burners will probably run quite differently after they're placed in casting furnaces. I'm also not surprised that your excellent burner doesn't have the vortex burner's potential "problems." Your burner uses a squirrel cage blower, which provides positive force , and depends on the funnel alone to provide spin. My burner is designed to provide high forward momentum and spin with as low a positive pressure as can be avoided. Nevertheless, your comments about running the burner already placed within the furnace should apply. I'm experimenting with a whole series of burner sizes, and am running them "out in the open" at present.

As with other safety admonitions for any equipment, I have to describe a worst case scenario, where someone has managed to jump all the tracks. Nevertheless, some will undoubtedly do so; they're who painstaking safety admonitions are always aimed at. The first place people will run these burners will be out in the open, during testing. What procedures they will use when running them in coffee-can furnaces is farther along than I've gotten, thus far. Once the burner is positioned in a furnace the operator is really lighting the furnace (the whole heating system), rather than just a burner. Once I get that far, there might have to be another set of instructions based on what I observe, then., but even after building and testing is done, I use these burners in the open air all the time for hand brazing; others will too. I also plan to run them in chip forges, and brazing stations, neither of which will support the flame like a casting furnace. So, the
opening safety precautions in my Vortex burner chapter will have to remain. It will be interesting to see if they get added to or not.
Mikey

Mike, I'm assuming now. If your running your burner in a foundry furnace, you won't have these problems, if you follow proper starting and stopping the burner. To start with I designed my own burner venturi(funnel). I've had none of the problems you described.

To start the burner in the furnace, every thing is off. I put a piece of burning news paper in the furnace. With the lid open I start the gas with the restrictor on the blower wide open. The gas will ignite and i bring the gas up to about 5-7 psi. After a minute I or so turn the restrictor down to about 1/4 open and turn on the blower. Then it's just adjust the burner for the type of metal your melting.

The burner tube is about 9" and extends about 1" into the frunace. The blower is all metal and has never gotten hot when left in the furnace.

When shutting down I normally shut the gas off first, but I can shut down either one first.

If built right(like mine;-) there should be no back pressure, just some additional air and an accelerated flame. All this does is increase the flame temp, some. adjustments are the same as any other type of burner, air flow and gas pressure.

I think your comments are good. All you guys are kind of reminding me that I need to write up the safety instructions for regular fan-blowers in the chapter that precedes Vortex burners. Yes...that is a smart thing to do. Unfortunately, a friend just forwarded about the most hilarious Viagra jokes I ever read...and my brain is simply burned out at the moment.

Since you asked: The Funniest Staff Meeting ! The boss of a Madison Avenue advertising agency called a spontaneous staff meeting in the middle of a

Message 8 of 19
, Feb 25, 2013

0 Attachment

Since you asked:

The Funniest Staff Meeting !
The boss of a Madison Avenue advertising agency called a spontaneous staff meeting in the middle of a particularly stressful week. (This is one pretty sharp boss!) When everyone gathered, the boss, who understood the benefits of having fun, told the burnt out staff the purpose of the meeting was to have a quick contest. The theme: Viagra advertising slogans. The only rule was they had to use past ad slogans, originally written for other products that captured the essence of Viagra. Slight variations were acceptable.

About 7 minutes later, they turned in their suggestions and created a Top 10 List.. With all the laughter and camaraderie, the rest of the week went very well for everyone! The top 10 were:

I think your comments are good. All you guys are kind of reminding me that I need to write up the safety instructions for regular fan-blowers in the chapter that precedes Vortex burners. Yes...that is a smart thing to do. Unfortunately, a friend just forwarded about the most hilarious Viagra jokes I ever read...and my brain is simply burned out at the moment.

Dave, Once again, I have to agree with your point of view. Even the best burner can t overcome a poorly designed and/or constructed furnace; together, they are

Message 9 of 19
, Feb 25, 2013

0 Attachment

Dave,
Once again, I have to agree with your point of view. Even the best burner can't overcome a poorly designed and/or constructed furnace; together, they are a system.

Probably I should admit that I write on the casting sites because all my close friends are casting enthusiasts; it's become a habit. I'm an equipment enthusiast, and started out writing about burners on the blacksmith sites, where most of my burners get used. But, this isn't always very fair to the readers here. I'll have to keep the furnaces more in mind. Another difference in viewpoints is that I'm a professional author; what I discuss is going into my texts, and my take on safety issues springs from the need to avoid being dragged into a courtroom, where practical good sense has little to do with anything. When it comes to safety quotes CYA is the number one rule. So, general burner safety is the first thing written about in the Vortex burner chapter. Any difference in safety procedures for burners within furnaces, or within ceramic chip forges and brazing stations will be listed as part of maintenance, tuning, start up, and shutdown procedures, just as they are with every other burner in my book. The chapter on ducted fan-blown burners will only discuss safety procedures for burners within equipment because they aren't found in use outside of heating equipment, as my designs are built into it.

Otherwise, I'd probably have to give admonitions against detaching the burner, using for a winter butt warmer, and setting ones ass on fire :-)
Mikey

Mike I think it's just a different way of thinking. I built my burners for a foundry furnace and it could be used in a forge. I have no intention of using it outside of the foundry furnace. I do like your first burners and that I would use in a forge. I tend to think that the furnace and burner as a unit, then gage it's efficiency. Using a furnace/forge burner outside the furnace,to me give little info. Looking at melt times, gas psi and air inlet size for a specific melt, aluminum or brass, in my case, gives me more info. Looks like you're looking for something more.

I agree with your main point; that the burners will probably run quite differently after they're placed in casting furnaces. I'm also not surprised that your excellent burner doesn't have the vortex burner's potential "problems." Your burner uses a squirrel cage blower, which provides positive force , and depends on the funnel alone to provide spin. My burner is designed to provide high forward momentum and spin with as low a positive pressure as can be avoided. Nevertheless, your comments about running the burner already placed within the furnace should apply. I'm experimenting with a whole series of burner sizes, and am running them "out in the open" at present.

As with other safety admonitions for any equipment, I have to describe a worst case scenario, where someone has managed to jump all the tracks. Nevertheless, some will undoubtedly do so; they're who painstaking safety admonitions are always aimed at. The first place people will run these burners will be out in the open, during testing. What procedures they will use when running them in coffee-can furnaces is farther along than I've gotten, thus far. Once the burner is positioned in a furnace the operator is really lighting the furnace (the whole heating system), rather than just a burner. Once I get that far, there might have to be another set of instructions based on what I observe, then., but even after building and testing is done, I use these burners in the open air all the time for hand brazing; others will too. I also plan to run them in chip forges, and brazing stations, neither of which will support the flame like a casting furnace. So, the

opening safety precautions in my Vortex burner chapter will have to remain. It will be interesting to see if they get added to or not.

Mike, I'm assuming now. If your running your burner in a foundry furnace, you won't have these problems, if you follow proper starting and stopping the burner. To start with I designed my own burner venturi(funnel). I've had none of the problems you described.

To start the burner in the furnace, every thing is off. I put a piece of burning news paper in the furnace. With the lid open I start the gas with the restrictor on the blower wide open. The gas will ignite and i bring the gas up to about 5-7 psi. After a minute I or so turn the restrictor down to about 1/4 open and turn on the blower. Then it's just adjust the burner for the type of metal your melting.

The burner tube is about 9" and extends about 1" into the frunace. The blower is all metal and has never gotten hot when left in the furnace.

When shutting down I normally shut the gas off first, but I can shut down either one first.

If built right(like mine;-) there should be no back pressure, just some additional air and an accelerated flame. All this does is increase the flame temp, some. adjustments are the same as any other type of burner, air flow and gas pressure.

back pressure. Even the best fan burner design can suffer a fire through

the fan, if you physically block its flame while the burner is running

(ex. allowing the burner to fall over on its nozzle during operation).

Secure the burner in position before running it.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Wonk

I find those who poo poo safety quotes or instructions are usually the ones that end up surprised when something goes horibly wrong. Most who are casting don t

Message 10 of 19
, Feb 25, 2013

0 Attachment

I find those who poo poo safety quotes or instructions are usually the ones that end up surprised when something goes horibly wrong.
Most who are casting don't stand and watch the furnace while melting and are busy ramming or doing other things, blacksmiths pound while the fire is going so the chances of a flame out or a backfire is very possible. Saying "if built properly" means nothing when a fire ball fly across the room.

wonk

--- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, michael.a.porter@... wrote: Probably I should admit that I write on the casting sites because all my close friends are casting enthusiasts; it's become a habit. I'm an equipment enthusiast, and started out writing about burners on the blacksmith sites, where most of my burners get used. But, this isn't always very fair to the readers here. I'll have to keep the furnaces more in mind. Another difference in viewpoints is that I'm a professional author; what I discuss is going into my texts, and my take on safety issues springs from the need to avoid being dragged into a courtroom, where practical good sense has little to do with anything. When it comes to safety quotes CYA is the number one rule. So, general burner safety is the first thing written about in the Vortex burner chapter. Any difference in safety procedures for burners within furnaces, or within ceramic chip forges and brazing stations will be listed as part of maintenance, tuning, start up, and shutdown procedures, just as they are with every other burner in my book. The chapter on ducted fan-blown burners will only discuss safety procedures for burners within equipment because they aren't found in use outside of heating equipment, as my designs are built into it.

>
> Otherwise, I'd probably have to give admonitions against detaching the burner, using for a winter butt warmer, and setting ones ass on fire :-)
> Mikey

mikey98118

I agree. Wonk, The if built properly has to do with NA burners built so poorly that they are inclined to back-fire, for instance when the nozzle diameter to

Message 11 of 19
, Feb 25, 2013

0 Attachment

I agree. Wonk,
The "if built properly" has to do with NA burners built so poorly that they are inclined to back-fire, for instance when the nozzle diameter to mixing tube ratio isn't great enough to insure sufficient pressure drop in the nozzle. Wow! that takes me back a dozen years to Dr Frankenburner's early lab work.
Mikey

I find those who poo poo safety quotes or instructions are usually the ones that end up surprised when something goes horibly wrong.

Most who are casting don't stand and watch the furnace while melting and are busy ramming or doing other things, blacksmiths pound while the fire is going so the chances of a flame out or a backfire is very possible. Saying "if built properly" means nothing when a fire ball fly across the room.

wonk

--- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, michael.a.porter@... wrote: Probably I should admit that I write on the casting sites because all my close friends are casting enthusiasts; it's become a habit. I'm an equipment enthusiast, and started out writing about burners on the blacksmith sites, where most of my burners get used. But, this isn't always very fair to the readers here. I'll have to keep the furnaces more in mind. Another difference in viewpoints is that I'm a professional author; what I discuss is going into my texts, and my take on safety issues springs from the need to avoid being dragged into a courtroom, where practical good sense has little to do with anything. When it comes to safety quotes CYA is the number one rule. So, general burner safety is the first thing written about in the Vortex burner chapter. Any difference in safety procedures for burners within furnaces, or within ceramic chip forges and brazing stations will be listed as part of maintenance, tuning, start up, and shutdown procedures, just as they are with every other burner in my book. The chapter on ducted fan-blown burners will only discuss safety procedures for burners within equipment because they aren't found in use outside of heating equipment, as my designs are built into it.

>

> Otherwise, I'd probably have to give admonitions against detaching the burner, using for a winter butt warmer, and setting ones ass on fire :-)

> Mikey

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

David Patterson

Wonk I wasn t poo pooing safety. But the safety rules could apply to all burner/furnace/forge types. For me working at home alone it s: Cold start 1 attach

Message 12 of 19
, Feb 25, 2013

0 Attachment

Wonk I wasn't poo pooing safety. But the safety rules could apply to all burner/furnace/forge types.
For me working at home alone it's:

Cold start
1 attach burner solid (mine is a tight fit with a set screw)
2 place news print under crucible then fill with metal
3 make sure area around furnace is clear of obstacles
4 steel pan under furnace (cast over concrete so my pan is big enough to hold the entire melt)
5 light furnace (I don't light the burner, remember 'unit')
a- put small news print between the crucible and and start it burning
b- slowly turn on the gas, when lit bring up the temp up slow (watch the steam)
c- when the furnace is hot (no steam and starting to glow) turn on blower and adjust for your metal type and melt time.
6 go do what you need to do, but never more than a few steps from the furnace

Shut down
1 turn off gas
2 turn off blower

All that would be after you've proven your burner/furnace is of stable design.

Safety to me is procedure and repetition

Other than a Safety Note about the dangers of this hobby and the fact the author(Mike in the case). is not responsible if the builder can not build it per drawing or deviates from said drawings, the author is not responsible for any injuries.

But I don't have to deal with lawyers, Mike does. He's a braver man than me to take on this challange.

I find those who poo poo safety quotes or instructions are usually the ones that end up surprised when something goes horibly wrong.
Most who are casting don't stand and watch the furnace while melting and are busy ramming or doing other things, blacksmiths pound while the fire is going so the chances of a flame out or a backfire is very possible. Saying "if built properly" means nothing when a fire ball fly across the room.

wonk

--- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, michael.a.porter@... wrote: Probably I should admit that I write on the casting sites because all my close friends are casting enthusiasts; it's become a habit. I'm an equipment enthusiast, and started out writing about burners on the blacksmith sites, where most of my burners get used. But, this isn't always very fair to the readers here. I'll have to keep the furnaces more in mind. Another difference in viewpoints is that I'm a professional author; what I discuss is going into my texts, and my take on safety issues springs from the need to avoid being dragged into a courtroom, where practical good sense has little to do with anything. When it comes to safety quotes CYA is the number one rule. So, general burner safety is the first thing written about in the Vortex burner chapter. Any difference in safety procedures for burners within furnaces, or within ceramic chip forges and brazing stations will be listed as part of
maintenance, tuning, start up, and shutdown procedures, just as they are with every other burner in my book. The chapter on ducted fan-blown burners will only discuss safety procedures for burners within equipment because they aren't found in use outside of heating equipment, as my designs are built into it.
>
> Otherwise, I'd probably have to give admonitions against detaching the burner, using for a winter butt warmer, and setting ones ass on fire :-)
> Mikey

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Wonk

Oh I wasn t pointing at you, but if the shoe fits! What I m saying your furnace and burner can be designed for all the stability in the world and in an instant

Message 13 of 19
, Feb 25, 2013

0 Attachment

Oh I wasn't pointing at you, but if the shoe fits!

What I'm saying your furnace and burner can be designed for all the stability in the world and in an instant things can change. the only safe fire is one that is out and cold!

End of story

Wonk

--- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, David Patterson <odd_kins@...> wrote:
>
> Wonk I wasn't poo pooing safety.Â But the safety rules could apply to all burner/furnace/forge types.
> For me working at home alone it's:
> Â
> Cold start
> 1 attach burner solid (mine is a tight fit with a set screw)
> 2 place news print under crucible then fill with metal
> 3 make sure area around furnaceÂ is clear of obstacles
> 4 steel pan under furnace (cast over concrete so my pan is big enough to hold the entire melt)
> 5 light furnace (I don't light the burner, remember 'unit')
> Â a- put small news printÂ between the crucible and and start it burning
> Â b- slowly turn on the gas, when lit bring up the temp up slow (watch the steam)
> Â c-Â when the furnace is hot (no steam and starting to glow) turn on blower and adjust forÂ yourÂ metal type and melt time.
> 6 go do what you need to do, but never more than a few steps from the furnace
> Â
> Shut down
> 1 turn off gas
> 2 turn off blower
> Â
> All that would be after you've proven your burner/furnace is of stable design.
> Â
> Safety to me is procedure and repetition
>
> Other than aÂ Safety Note about the dangers of this hobby and the fact the author(Mike in the case). is not responsible if the builder can not build it per drawing or deviates from saidÂ drawings, the author is not responsible for anyÂ injuries.
> Â
> But I don't have to deal with lawyers, Mike does. He's a braver man than me to take on this challange.
>
> Dave Patterson
> odd_kins@...
> http://home.comcast.net/~oddkins/foundry_home.html
>
> --- On Mon, 2/25/13, Wonk <tiwonk@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: Wonk <tiwonk@...>
> Subject: [hobbicast] Re: Vortex burner safety
> To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Monday, February 25, 2013, 12:11 PM
>
>
>
> Â
>
>
>
> I find those who poo poo safety quotes or instructions are usually the ones that end up surprised when something goes horibly wrong.
> Most who are casting don't stand and watch the furnace while melting and are busy ramming or doing other things, blacksmiths pound while the fire is going so the chances of a flame out or a backfire is very possible. Saying "if built properly" means nothing when a fire ball fly across the room.
>
> wonk
>
> --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, michael.a.porter@ wrote: Probably I should admit that I write on the casting sites because all my close friends are casting enthusiasts; it's become a habit. I'm an equipment enthusiast, and started out writing about burners on the blacksmith sites, where most of my burners get used. But, this isn't always very fair to the readers here. I'll have to keep the furnaces more in mind. Another difference in viewpoints is that I'm a professional author; what I discuss is going into my texts, and my take on safety issues springs from the need to avoid being dragged into a courtroom, where practical good sense has little to do with anything. When it comes to safety quotes CYA is the number one rule. So, general burner safety is the first thing written about in the Vortex burner chapter. Any difference in safety procedures for burners within furnaces, or within ceramic chip forges and brazing stations will be listed as part of
> maintenance, tuning, start up, and shutdown procedures, just as they are with every other burner in my book. The chapter on ducted fan-blown burners will only discuss safety procedures for burners within equipment because they aren't found in use outside of heating equipment, as my designs are built into it.
> >
> > Otherwise, I'd probably have to give admonitions against detaching the burner, using for a winter butt warmer, and setting ones ass on fire :-)
> > Mikey
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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