tiltbillings wrote:Because Geonka is not a monastic, it is not in line with Theravada, not in line with the Buddha's teachings?

The link is through context. The format and technique do not come from the suttas.

Lest me see here. Ajahn Chah, in dealing with someone who is struggling mightly with sleepiness tell that person to sit on the very edge of an open well when he meditates. Heavens, that did not come from the suttas, so it is not in line with the Buddha's teachings. Naughty Ajahn Chah. What Goenka teaches is the cultivation of sila, concentration and mindfulness.

But tell me, which actual format and which actual technique come from the suttas?

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

>> Do you see a man wise[enlightened/ariya]in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<-- Proverbs 26:12

tiltbillings wrote:Because Geonka is not a monastic, it is not in line with Theravada, not in line with the Buddha's teachings?

The link is through context. The format and technique do not come from the suttas.

Lest me see here. Ajahn Chah, indealing with someone who is struggling mightly with sleepiness tell that person to sit on the very edge of an open well when he meditates. Heavens, that did not come from the suttas, so it is not in line with the Buddha's teachings. Naughty Ajahn Chah. What Goenka teaches is the cultivation of sila, concentration and mindfulness.

But tell me, which actual format and which actual technique come from the suttas?

With respect Tilt I think you really need to go back and read over what I actually said. Have I said something that is not correct?

---The trouble is that you think you have time------Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe------It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

I don't think that there should be any concern about doing an intensive training... it's all about cultivating the insight of anicca, dukkha and anatta... and then try to figure out how to apply that insight, in a way which is wholesome.

If a person feels like that he needs an intensive training, then I think that's OK. If the person feels like that he doesn't need it, then I think that's OK also... I just don't think that there's any need to turn it into something that one has to be defensive about, or an argument.

beeblebrox wrote:If a person feels like that he needs an intensive training, then I think that's OK. If the person feels like that he doesn't need it, then I think that's OK also... I don't think that there's any need to turn it into something that one has to be defensive about, or an argument.

I agree. Intensive practice is not something that will meet the needs of everyone. I find, however, the willingness to so quickly and without meaningful basis to criticize intensive practice unfortunate as is the willingness to dismiss it because it supposedly is not in line with what the Buddha taught.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

>> Do you see a man wise[enlightened/ariya]in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<-- Proverbs 26:12

beeblebrox wrote:I don't think that there should be any concern about doing an intensive training... it's all about cultivating the insight of anicca, dukkha and anatta... and then try to figure out how to apply that insight, in a way which is wholesome.

If one has actual insight, and not something conceptually derived, there is no need to try to figure out how to apply the actual insight.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

>> Do you see a man wise[enlightened/ariya]in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<-- Proverbs 26:12

tiltbillings wrote:I agree. Intensive practice is not something that will meet the needs of everyone. I find, however, the willingness to so quickly and without meaningful basis to criticize intensive practice unfortunate as is the willingness to dismiss it because it supposedly is not in line with what the Buddha taught.

beeblebrox wrote:I don't think that there should be any concern about doing an intensive training... it's all about cultivating the insight of anicca, dukkha and anatta... and then try to figure out how to apply that insight, in a way which is wholesome.

If one has actual insight, and not something conceptually derived, there is no need to try to figure out how to apply the actual insight.

Maybe that could be... but seems like that it still could be a part of the practice, though.

beeblebrox wrote:I don't think that there should be any concern about doing an intensive training... it's all about cultivating the insight of anicca, dukkha and anatta... and then try to figure out how to apply that insight, in a way which is wholesome.

If one has actual insight, and not something conceptually derived, there is no need to try to figure out how to apply the actual insight.

Maybe that could be... but seems like that it still could be a part of the practice, though.

Insight into anicca, dukkha, anatta points to a shift in perception that at its basis is not conceptual, though concepts certainly are at play when insight is talked about.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

>> Do you see a man wise[enlightened/ariya]in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<-- Proverbs 26:12

Many monks sit a 90-day retreat each year. Some monks sit two 90-day retreats a year (Zen). Some monks remain in mostly solitude and silence for years and decades.

So yes, although 10 days seems like a long time to somebody who is not used to silence and solitude (most of us in the West), it's a relatively short time to be alone and quiet. It just points out how insane our societal conditioning has made us.

If you want intense, you go to certain monasteries in Burma and Thailand where monks and laypeople are striving for liberation e.g. Panditarama Forest Monastery. Most Mahasi retreats are quite austere, and you can make it more challenging by not taking rest during the day, not lying down until time for bed, not spending much time in your residential quarters, etc.

But whatever the circumstances, if your health permits, don't quit! Meditation is meant to be time for one to face his demons, long suppressed, repressed, pushed away, hated, etc. I know over the last year or so, I have broken down maybe 100+ times into tears. It's all the stuff that's been stuck in our cells that have the chance to be released when our bodies become still, when we are not adding any experience purposefully through our sense doors. It's wonderful to cry and let go of some of the rigidity with which this culture imbues us.

tiltbillings wrote:Insight into anicca, dukkha, anatta points to a shift in perception that at its basis is not conceptual, though concepts certainly are at play when insight is talked about.

I'am sorry, titlbilling, i will make one little modification. Anicca, dukkha and anatta are alredy here, and directly seen by the wise.

You said : 'Insight into anicca, dukkha, anatta points to a shift in perception'. Actualy is not insight that make change perception, but shift of perception make knowledge arise.Why?

When insight (knowledge) change perception - it's a conceptual understanding, because knowledge change perception, and you have to undertake this knowledge to keep this perception.But when is perception that change knowledge - it's a non-conceptual understanding, because perception change knowledge, and insight arise from this new perception.

Perception is impermanent and conditioned. By what is conditioned? It's conditioned by Wisdom. So, it's not insight (direct knowledge) a condition to new perception (direct perception), but Wisdom is condition to new insight (direct knowledge).

Chi wrote:Many monks sit a 90-day retreat each year. Some monks sit two 90-day retreats a year (Zen). Some monks remain in mostly solitude and silence for years and decades.

Ven. Nhat Hanh (granted a Mahayanist... but still ordained in the Dharmaguptaka lineage, with its own version of Vinaya and all) who has been a monk for 70+ years, actually discourages doing "intensive" training (same words that he used)... mainly because he said he sees no point in creating more suffering for oneself (but I will agree that this is probably not the motivation of some sincere practitioners who want to train in this way), when there is already plenty of suffering for us to work with, already.

I've seen him sit for 1 1/2, or sometimes 2 hours, giving a Dharma talk, though... he didn't seem to show any sign of discomfort. He even seems to enjoy it throughout. One time, when I was sitting like 15 feet away from him, he seemed to be a bit under the weather, and then when he gave a Dharma talk... he just seemed to continue to brighten, more and more, as the time went on... till he seemed to be full of joy, at the end. I was fascinated, even though I couldn't hear him. (I'm deaf.)

Although that was impressive... and the fact that the Ven. Nhat Hanh is easily the most humble person I've ever met, by far... much of what he says in his talks probably will clash with what many people understand to be Dhammic.

Of course, everyone's circumstance is different. I think in the end, they're really the ones who know the best about what they should do with their own practices.