World Families Forums - Assyrian Heritage DNA Project

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Comparing the R-M269 modals of Druze, Alawites, and Assyrians. Adding the modal for what appears to be the most frequent Iraqi Arab R-M269 haplotype (see the Iraqi DNA Project). Standard FTDNA 1-12 and DYS464. Please note that the Iraqi Arabs are ancestral for L584.

Comparing the R-M269 modals of Druze, Alawites, and Assyrians. Adding the modal for what appears to be the most frequent Iraqi Arab R-M269 haplotype (see the Iraqi DNA Project). Standard FTDNA 1-12 and DYS464. Please note that the Iraqi Arabs are ancestral for L584.

Interesting. Seems like there is a big contrast between Iranian R1b and Assyrian/Armenian/Druze/Alawaite etc R1b. Wonder why that is and what this says about the origins of R-M269 and population movements.

As I understand For Phokaia (Phocée in french, mother of Massilia/Marseille) and , Smyrnia, 2 harbours of the old Ionia and Eolia in the west coast of Turkey, they sampled descendants Greeks originated of these towns. As you know the Greek population of Anatolia (3500years of presence) were forced to migrate to Greece, America and Australia, but it is possible the descendants of ancient moslem inhabitants of these towns are not very different genetically, they could be mostly old converted Greeks.For the anectod, the french prime minister for 1995-1997 was from Marseille, his family came from Smyrnia and before was Armenians (Balladurian) of Nakhichevan.

For NeoNikomedia in Macedonia, Sesklo/Dimini in Thesssalia, Lerna/Franchti in the East coast of Peloponnésia, south of Argos, they are villages with famous sites of mesolithitic and old neolithic.

If R1b-L23* is from the Balkans and other IE speakers, converted Greeks etc how do you explain its presence in Iran?

Did they declassify Iranian from the IE family?

Is this a serious response?

No, not really (If you haven't noticed I'm a little bit of a character sometimes).

Seriously though, I'm getting where that seems such a long distance, especially when you consider how widespread R1b and R1a expanded.

My point was that an expansion from the Balkans with IE (or Galatians) for West Asian R1b doesn't make sense because it is found in Iranians (who might be IE speaking but its clear iranian expanded into iran from the steepe and Central Asia with R1a and J2a lineages picked up in Central Asia) as well as Assyrians who are not IE speaking and don't have any clades of I that would indicate a Balkan origin. I have no doubt some Armenian R1b lineages are from the Balkan. This fits in with their language as well as frequency of I (although one wonders about the R1b and I in Kurds).

If R1b-L23* is from the Balkans and other IE speakers, converted Greeks etc how do you explain its presence in Iran?

I don't know R1b-L23* in Iran well, but it seems me they were mainly from Armenians and Assyrians/Nestorians migrated to Iran in the recent centuries, either to look for a political or religious refugia, and/or for trade .

When you look at statistics in Iran and Central Asia for R1, it is difficult to say if it is R1b-M343*, R1b1-P25*, R1b1a-P297*, R1b1b-M335, R1b1c-V88, R1b1a1-P73, R1b1a2-M269*, R1b1a2a-L23.

If R1b-L23* is from the Balkans and other IE speakers, converted Greeks etc how do you explain its presence in Iran?

I don't know R1b-L23* in Iran well, but it seems me they were mainly from Armenians and Assyrians/Nestorians migrated to Iran in the recent centuries, either to look for a political or religious refugia, and/or for trade .

When you look at statistics in Iran and Central Asia for R1, it is difficult to say if it is R1b-M343*, R1b1-P25*, R1b1a-P297*, R1b1b-M335, R1b1c-V88, R1b1a1-P73, R1b1a2-M269*, R1b1a2a-L23.

R1b reaches a frequency of >40% among some minorities in Northern Iran. Are you actually saying 40 % of male lineages in certain North Iranian communities who are known for their high degrees of endogamy are Armenian or Assyrian in origin? Nor does it explain why North Iranians (the entire north not just the northwest where armenians and assyrians are concentrated) and South Iranians do have R1b when Armenians and Assyrians are concentrated in NW Iran. Why would the Gilaki have R1b ? No Armenians and Assyrians there. And once again doesn't explain how Assyrians would have gotten R1b without I . I get that you want to make L23 European but that all Iranian R1b derives from Assyrians and Armenians has very little to support it.

Doesn't explain the M269 in Balochis and Tajiks either. Their admixture with Iranian plataeau populations is more than a few centuries old and there are certainly no Assyrians or Armenians in SE Iran, SW Pakistan, Afghanistan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan where these two groups live.

R1b reaches a frequency of >40% among some minorities in Northern Iran. Are you actually saying 40 % of male lineages in certain North Iranian communities who are known for their high degrees of endogamy are Armenian or Assyrian in origin? Nor does it explain why North Iranians (the entire north not just the northwest where armenians and assyrians are concentrated) and South Iranians do have R1b when Armenians and Assyrians are concentrated in NW Iran. Why would the Gilaki have R1b ? No Armenians and Assyrians there. And once again doesn't explain how Assyrians would have gotten R1b without I . I get that you want to make L23 European but that all Iranian R1b derives from Assyrians and Armenians has very little to support it.

Doesn't explain the M269 in Balochis and Tajiks either. Their admixture with Iranian plataeau populations is more than a few centuries old and there are certainly no Assyrians or Armenians in SE Iran, SW Pakistan, Afghanistan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan where these two groups live.

Anyway, there is a noticeable frequency of R1b in some Caucasian and Iranian people, higher than I in the same people. If South-East Balkan origin, you wait for a same proportion for I2 and R1b, but the problem is the same for South Greece, Crete and Egean islands where R1b ( 20%) is twice or more higher than I2 (5-10%). Before Gothic, Slavic, Bulgarian, Turkish invasions and the continuous Albanian migration towards Greece, the proportion of I and R1a were lower in South Balkans and the proportion of R1b-L23xL51 were a lot higher. It is also showed in the samples of descendants of Greeks of West coast of Anatolia (Phokaia and Smyrna).Roy J King and al -2011" The dominant haplogroups in both Phokaia and Smyrna are E-V13 (19.4% and 12.1%) and R1b-M269 (22.6% and 27.8%) respectfully. In addition, J2a is also common, attaining a frequency of 9.7% in Phokaia and 15.5% in Smyrna. ".In Mesolithics, I think R1b-L23xL51 was a great majority of population in Greece and South Balkans before the arrival of G2a, J2 and E1b1b1 in the last Mesolithic/.Early Neolithic. I2 were more concentrated in Centre-East Europe north of Danube-Bosna line.

Since LGM (25,000-19,000BP) which gived a great advantage of one (maximum 2) haplogroup by region due to very hard life conditions and very weak population density by genetic drift and founding effect at the end of LGM and end of last cold peaks for sub-groups, then since the end of Younger Dryas (12,000BP), there have been a continous mixing. Genetic drifts and founding effects could take place in very localized and weak populations, I don't accept a lot of bottlenecks found by population geneticians for Middle and Modern ages at all . In Europe, the last great founding effect was the entry of hg I1 in empty Scandinavia. I am convinced that archeologia and physical anthropology show a relative stability of population in Europe and large parts of Asia and Africa, except progressive mixings more and more accelerated thru the modern times until present.

About R1b in Central Asia and South Asia, I have no idea about the frequency of R1b-L23xL51. If existing, it could be partially explained by the Greek presence in Bactriane and arounding regions during three centuries (From 325 BC (Alexander) to 15AD the end of the last indo-greek kingdom in Pendjab).http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Greeks (nice map)

Tadjiks are descendants of old inhabitants of Bactriane and Sogdiane.Balouches are said to come from the Caspian shores and "Balochi is closely related to other Northwestern Iranian languages such as Kurdish".http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Bactrian_Kingdom (nice maps)

It is difficult to know the proportion of Greek "blood" in the nobles of these kingdoms and the following Kuchan and Sakas kingdoms, probably decreasing with the time.

Anyway, there is a noticeable frequency of R1b in some Caucasian and Iranian people,higher than I in the same people. If South-East Balkan origin, you wait for a same proportion for I2 and R1b , but the problem is the same for South Greece, Crete and Egean islands where R1b ( 20%) is twice or more higher than I2 (5-10%). Before Gothic, Slavic, Bulgarian, Turkish invasions and the continuous Albanian migration towards Greece, the proportion of I and R1a were lower in South Balkans and the proportion of R1b-L23xL51 were a lot higher. It is also showed in the samples of descendants of Greeks of West coast of Anatolia (Phokaia and Smyrna).Roy J King and al -2011" The dominant haplogroups in both Phokaia and Smyrna are E-V13 (19.4% and 12.1%) and R1b-M269 (22.6% and 27.8%) respectfully. In addition, J2a is also common, attaining a frequency of 9.7% in Phokaia and 15.5% in Smyrna. ".....

This is an interesting point. If I understand it, you are saying that the Caucasian and Iranian popultions with high R1b frequencies do NOT see the same ratios of R1b to I2 that we would expect to see if there was an incursion from SE Europe. Right? Is there any reason to think I2 was late to SE Europe or is sporadic, therefore causing the different mix?

As long as the R1b to I2 ratio is valid, R1b, where it appears in Iranian and Caucasian ethnic groups, appears NOT to come from SE Europe. If not from SE Europe, from where?

I see some of these populations are IE and some are Semitic. Is there any pattern to this? Do we think some of these languages were historical period adoptions?

This is an interesting point. If I understand it, you are saying that the Caucasian and Iranian popultions with high R1b frequencies do NOT see the same ratios of R1b to I2 that we would expect to see if there was an incursion from SE Europe. Right? Is there any reason to think I2 was late to SE Europe or is sporadic, therefore causing the different mix?

As long as the R1b to I2 ratio is valid, R1b, where it appears in Iranian and Caucasian ethnic groups, appears NOT to come from SE Europe. If not from SE Europe, from where?

I see some of these populations are IE and some are Semitic. Is there any pattern to this? Do we think some of these languages were historical period adoptions?

Just thinking out loud here...

The western Balkans seem to have many times more I2 than the east. If the R1b migration to Iran and Caucasia came from the Eastern Balkans, perhaps there was no I2 to be picked up along the way?

Anyway, there is a noticeable frequency of R1b in some Caucasian and Iranian people,higher than I in the same people. If South-East Balkan origin, you wait for a same proportion for I2 and R1b , but the problem is the same for South Greece, Crete and Egean islands where R1b ( 20%) is twice or more higher than I2 (5-10%). Before Gothic, Slavic, Bulgarian, Turkish invasions and the continuous Albanian migration towards Greece, the proportion of I and R1a were lower in South Balkans and the proportion of R1b-L23xL51 were a lot higher. It is also showed in the samples of descendants of Greeks of West coast of Anatolia (Phokaia and Smyrna).Roy J King and al -2011" The dominant haplogroups in both Phokaia and Smyrna are E-V13 (19.4% and 12.1%) and R1b-M269 (22.6% and 27.8%) respectfully. In addition, J2a is also common, attaining a frequency of 9.7% in Phokaia and 15.5% in Smyrna. ".....

This is an interesting point. If I understand it, you are saying that the Caucasian and Iranian popultions with high R1b frequencies do NOT see the same ratios of R1b to I2 that we would expect to see if there was an incursion from SE Europe. Right? Is there any reason to think I2 was late to SE Europe or is sporadic, therefore causing the different mix?

As long as the R1b to I2 ratio is valid, R1b, where it appears in Iranian and Caucasian ethnic groups, appears NOT to come from SE Europe. If not from SE Europe, from where?

I see some of these populations are IE and some are Semitic. Is there any pattern to this? Do we think some of these languages were historical period adoptions?

I think this is another bit of evidence that R1b was more easterly and northerly that the Balkans or Anatolia. Add to the fact that R1b's structure is suggestive of a lack of farming style demographic expansion the Balkans and Anatolia again do not really fit as they were early farming areas (very early in Anatolia). I think its all begining to point to R1b being immediate westerly neighbours of R1a on the steppes. That is the vvery area that might have been squeezed between Cucuteni-Trypole (non-R1b) farmers pushing in from the west and the other steppes peoples (R1a?) to the east. Maybe R1b was a Bug-Dneister haplogroup. The west end of the steppes has a terribly complex later history. Regardless of the specifcs it does look to me from the Iranian aspect that R1b was a factor in the steppes. It probably clealry wasnt as simple as R1b being the western steppes groups and R1a the eastern steppes given the R1a in corded ware and R1b very closeby at the same time in eastern Germany but some sort of pattern with more R1b in the west and R1a in the east and a mixed area would make a lot of sense.

I think if the variance dating of R1b phlogeny is accepted (which I admit I was a dounting Thomas about for a long time) then R1b was not in the farming zone in Europe (or perhaps only marginally so when a few lineages strayed into the zone) until 3000BC. I think if the variance dating of the phylogeny of R1b is true then there is absolutely no chance that it originated in Mesopotamia, Anatolia or in the Balkans Neolithic. The evidenced is piling up (and I admit its surprised me) but no point in denying that it suggests R1b's roots were in an area outside the early farming zone and indeed until very late. The steppes are looking very very likely now when all the new evidence is weighed up. If their first intrusions from the steppes were into the Caucuses, western Anatolia, Romania etc as hinted at by variance then

I see some of these populations are IE and some are Semitic. Is there any pattern to this? Do we think some of these languages were historical period adoptions?

Not the historical period, but if we go back 4000+ years, it is a different story. Speaking for N Mesopotamians only.

Edit. Apologies. If you are referring to as far back as 2000 BCE and earlier, then yes.

What I'm getting at is to answer the question, would the the ancestors of the Alawi and Assyrian R1b folks probably have spoken Semitic languages in the Bronze Are or something else?

Is it known these people adopted Semitic languages or are a mixture of people inluding those that did not speak Semitic languages?

I know the Hurrians and Hattians of the Bronze Age have been discussed. Is it just is likely the ancestors of the Alawi and Assyrians were speaking one of those languages versus some Semitic languages?

Today, I found these 2 maps . I noticed some names.In the first map,Albaniahttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_Albania They spoke a language of caucasian family, it was written . "Originally, the Caucasian Albanians apparently spoke Lezgic languages close to those found in modern Daghestan. After the Caucasian Albanians were Christianized in the 4th century, the western parts of the population were gradually assimilated by the ancestors of modern Armenians, and the eastern parts of Caucasian Albania were Islamized and absorbed by Iranian and subsequently Turkic peoples(modern Azerbaijanis). Small remnants of this group continue to exist independently, and are known as the Udi people.The pre-Islamic population of Caucasian Albania might have played a role in the ethnogenesis of a number of modern ethnicities, including the Azerbaijanis, the Armenians of the Nagorno-Karabakh, the Georgians of Kakhetia, the Laks, the Lezgins and the Tsakhurs of Daghestan"Iberiahttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_Iberia"The area was inhabited in earliest times by several relative tribes of Tibareni, Mushki, Saspers, Gugars, Diaokhi, etc., collectively called Iberians (the Eastern Iberians) by ancient Greek (Herodotus, Strabo, etc.) and Roman authors.""The Mushki (Muški; Georgian: მესხები Meshebi, მუშქები Mushkebi, Meskhetians, Moschia) were an Iron Age people of Anatolia, known from Assyrian sources. They do not appear in Hittite records.[1] Several authors have connected them with the Moschoi (Μόσχοι) of Greek sources and the Georgian tribe of the Meskhi. Josephus Flavius identified the Moschoi with the Biblical Meshech. Two different groups are called Muški in the Assyrian sources (Diakonoff 1984:115), one from the 12th to 9th centuries, located near the confluence of the Arsanias and the Euphrates ("Eastern Mushki"), and the other in the 8th to 7th centuries, located in Cappadocia and Cilicia ("Western Mushki"). Assyrian sources identify the Western Mushki with the Phrygians, while Greek sources clearly distinguish between Phrygians and Moschoi.Identification of the Eastern with the Western Mushki is uncertain, but it is of course possible to assume a migration of at least part of the Eastern Mushki to Cilicia in the course of the 10th to 8th centuries, and this possibility has been repeatedly suggested, variously identifying the Mushki as speakers of a Georgian, Armenian or Anatolian idiom. The Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture notes that "the Armenians according to Diakonoff, are then an amalgam of the Hurrian (and Urartians), Luvians and the Proto-Armenian Mushki (or Armeno-Phrygians) who carried their IE language eastwards across Anatolia."[2]The Eastern Muski appear to have moved into Hatti in the 12th century, completing the downfall of the collapsing Hittite state, along with various Sea Peoples. They established themselves in a post-Hittite kingdom in Cappadocia.Whether they moved into the core Hittite areas from the east or west has been a matter of some discussion by historians. Some speculate that they may have originally occupied a territory in the area of Urartu; alternatively, ancient accounts suggest that they first arrived from a homeland in the west (as part of the Armeno-Phrygian migration), from the region of Troy, or even from as far as Macedonia, as the Bryges.Together with the Hurrians and Kaskas, they invaded the Assyrian provinces of Alzi and Puruhuzzi in about 1160, but they were pushed back and defeated, along with the Kaskas, by Tiglath-Pileser I in 1115 BC, who until 1110 advanced as far as Milid."

Muski could be an important bearer of balkanic R1b-L23xL51 to Armenia and Assyrian areas about 1100BC.

Kaskas, originally south cost of Black Sea (probably Caucasian language) east of Halys mouth, were an everly problem for the Hittite Empire. On Iberia map, we see the province of Gogharena. "Gog and Magog" in the Bible.

Caspians, Hyrcanians (modern Gilan, Mazandaran and Golestan), Outians (Udi), Myques (Caspian Muski?), Mosches (Black Sea Muski), Matienes (around Van Lake south of Armenia, "The Mannaeans who probably spoke a Hurro-Urartian language, were subdued by the Scytho-Kimmerians during the seventh and eighth centuries BC. Matiene was ultimately conquered by the Medes in about 609 BCE."), Armenians, Phrygians, Assyrians, Sakas of Xerxes army(480BC) are described by Hérodote.

In the second map, we see Sarmata refers to Massagetes/Alani come from Aral Sea shores http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asii , the old kingdom of Alani/Osseti which dominated North Caucasus before turkish arrivals and prolonged to south Caucaus along the Caspian shores. Shakashen refers to SakaseneUtik (Otene) refers to Utilor.Kaspiana refers to CaspiansGardman an Armenia province and city sampleds by Herrero et al-2012Getari Getiae ? (weakly probable) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GetaeGugarsk refers to Gasgi. Gelawu refers to Gellor.

I see some of these populations are IE and some are Semitic. Is there any pattern to this? Do we think some of these languages were historical period adoptions?

Not the historical period, but if we go back 4000+ years, it is a different story. Speaking for N Mesopotamians only.

Edit. Apologies. If you are referring to as far back as 2000 BCE and earlier, then yes.

What I'm getting at is to answer the question, would the the ancestors of the Alawi and Assyrian R1b folks probably have spoken Semitic languages in the Bronze Are or something else?

Is it known these people adopted Semitic languages or are a mixture of people inluding those that did not speak Semitic languages?

I know the Hurrians and Hattians of the Bronze Age have been discussed. Is it just is likely the ancestors of the Alawi and Assyrians were speaking one of those languages versus some Semitic languages?

There is a great deal of very interesting information. Including possible Indo-European links in the Bronze and Iron ages. For instance, archaeologists have found evidence of cremations at sites with ties to the Assyrian ruling class. However, in another post in the thread, one reads the following:

Quote

According to archeologist Schloen: "Kuttumuwa's inscription shows a fascinating mixture of non-Semitic and Semitic cultural elements, including a belief in the enduring human soul-which did not inhabit the bones of the deceased, as in traditional Semitic thought, but inhabited his stone monument, possibly because the remains of the deceased were cremated. Cremation was considered to be abhorrent in the Old Testament and in traditional West Semitic culture, but there is archaeological evidence for Indo-European-style cremation in neighboring Iron Age sites."

As for your specific question, here is a post from that thread. There is a great deal we simply do not know. I do not believe N Mesopotamia was Semitic-speaking ~4500 years ago. The ancestral home of the Alawites includes, and is relatively near an area where several ancient Indo-European-speaking peoples were located ~3000 years back, ~4000 years back...(Hittite, Luwian, Lycian, etc.). Please see this speculative map of languages of Anatolia and N Mesopotamia in the year 1700 BCE: http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/BC1700.jpg

Quote

[A]s literacy dawns over the horizon of prehistory the first ethnic group whom we know to have inhabited the region [~ Arbil and its environs] are the Hurrians. This is not to say there were not other groups. There almost certainly were. Texts over these millennia relating to the eastern frontiers of Mesopotamia (for instance Ur III administrative documents and the Shemshara archives) contain a large number of personal names whose linguistic affiliation has not yet been established and it is, in my view, probable that parent languages will one be day be recognised and reconstructed for at least some of them. Be that as it may, the Hurrians are the earliest definable group for whose presence in the region we currently have evidence; followed closely by the Sumerians.

A distinctive development of Akkadian phonology is the gradual merger and loss of the five reconstructed Proto-Semitic ‘guttural’ consonants */!/, */h/, */hø /, */"/, and */g/ by the 2nd millennium B.C.E. (cf. GAG § 23; Huehnergard 1998, 38!40, 587; Kouwenberg 2006). As Sumerian had no such phonemes, this development has been considered a prime example of Sumerian substrate influence on Akkadian.

In the Babylonian dialect of Akkadian, the presence of the newly emerged /e/ in turn caused every /a/ in the stem and the pronominal affixes of the verb to change to /e/, a development known as ‘Babylonian Vowel Harmony’ (Kouwenberg 2001, 226). As a similar rule causing the assimilation of different vowels within a word played an important role in Sumerian (see Keetman 2005, 11!13), Keetman suggested that Babylonian Vowel Harmony might reflect the influence of Sumerian (2004, 11).

These developments started in about the 24th century B.C.E. and were completed by the first part of the 2nd millennium B.C.E. They therefore overlap in time with the period of assumed asymmetrical bilingualism. One is therefore tempted to assume that these phonological changes may in fact reflect the influence of a Sumerian speaking population gradually shifting to Akkadian. Hasselbach finds that contrary to expectations the orthography indicates the loss of gutturals and the phonemicization of /e/ in texts from the north first, but not from the south. She does, however, note the possibility that the Akkadian of the southern texts ‘might have been a learned literary language that was not native to this area’.

In addition to loanwords, there exist a number of Sumerian and Akkadian idioms which correspond to each other word for word, e.g. šag-še — gid = ana libbim šadadum ‘to consider earnestly’ (lit. ‘to draw to the heart’) (cf. Edzard 2003, 175!176).

Assyrian #2, kit # 213562: TMRCA of 2239 years with Assyrian #1 and Askhenazi Cohanim and Syrian Jewish men. Another 1011 years (3250 years), connects him to four men. One of the men lists France as an origin.

Assyrian #3*, kit # 147979: TMRCA of 3293 years with two men of unknown origin. One of the two men lists "Strickland" as a surname.

Assyrian #4, kit # 184027: TMRCA of 1505 years with three men. At least two appear to be Armenian. Further removed from present, this branch appears dominated by Armenians.

Assyrian #5, kit # 90492: TMRCA of 1735 years with a man listing Ireland as an origin. Another 2025 years (3760 years), connects him with a number of what appear to be Armenian and European men.

L277 (23andMe)

Assyrian #6, kit # 213878: TMRCA of 2293 with an Armenian man. Another 278 years (2571 years), connects him with a number of men, including a man listing Qatar as an origin, a man with a listed surname of "Hussein," an Assyrian from Iraq (Assyrian #7), and an Armenian man. Another 854 years back (3425 years), connects him with a number of Armenian men, a man from Russia (Jewish?), a man from Kazakhstan, a man from Qatar, a man from Georgia, and a man of unknown origin.

My feeling is that L23* in the north Levant and northern Mesopotamia is related to the Hittite empire. I found Anatole's paper about an outpouring from the north a lot more persuasive than the idea of people moving from the farming zone into the eastern steppes etc. R1b just not have the structure you would expect from deep time presence in the farming zone. A movement south c. 4000BC from the north would seem to me to fit quite well with the Anatolian early split from the PIE zone.

R1b reaches a frequency of >40% among some minorities in Northern Iran. Are you actually saying 40 % of male lineages in certain North Iranian communities who are known for their high degrees of endogamy are Armenian or Assyrian in origin? Nor does it explain why North Iranians (the entire north not just the northwest where armenians and assyrians are concentrated) and South Iranians do have R1b when Armenians and Assyrians are concentrated in NW Iran. Why would the Gilaki have R1b ? No Armenians and Assyrians there. And once again doesn't explain how Assyrians would have gotten R1b without I . I get that you want to make L23 European but that all Iranian R1b derives from Assyrians and Armenians has very little to support it.

Doesn't explain the M269 in Balochis and Tajiks either. Their admixture with Iranian plataeau populations is more than a few centuries old and there are certainly no Assyrians or Armenians in SE Iran, SW Pakistan, Afghanistan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan where these two groups live.

Anyway, there is a noticeable frequency of R1b in some Caucasian and Iranian people, higher than I in the same people. If South-East Balkan origin, you wait for a same proportion for I2 and R1b, but the problem is the same for South Greece, Crete and Egean islands where R1b ( 20%) is twice or more higher than I2 (5-10%). Before Gothic, Slavic, Bulgarian, Turkish invasions and the continuous Albanian migration towards Greece, the proportion of I and R1a were lower in South Balkans and the proportion of R1b-L23xL51 were a lot higher. It is also showed in the samples of descendants of Greeks of West coast of Anatolia (Phokaia and Smyrna).Roy J King and al -2011" The dominant haplogroups in both Phokaia and Smyrna are E-V13 (19.4% and 12.1%) and R1b-M269 (22.6% and 27.8%) respectfully. In addition, J2a is also common, attaining a frequency of 9.7% in Phokaia and 15.5% in Smyrna. ".In Mesolithics, I think R1b-L23xL51 was a great majority of population in Greece and South Balkans before the arrival of G2a, J2 and E1b1b1 in the last Mesolithic/.Early Neolithic. I2 were more concentrated in Centre-East Europe north of Danube-Bosna line.

Since LGM (25,000-19,000BP) which gived a great advantage of one (maximum 2) haplogroup by region due to very hard life conditions and very weak population density by genetic drift and founding effect at the end of LGM and end of last cold peaks for sub-groups, then since the end of Younger Dryas (12,000BP), there have been a continous mixing. Genetic drifts and founding effects could take place in very localized and weak populations, I don't accept a lot of bottlenecks found by population geneticians for Middle and Modern ages at all . In Europe, the last great founding effect was the entry of hg I1 in empty Scandinavia. I am convinced that archeologia and physical anthropology show a relative stability of population in Europe and large parts of Asia and Africa, except progressive mixings more and more accelerated thru the modern times until present.

About R1b in Central Asia and South Asia, I have no idea about the frequency of R1b-L23xL51. If existing, it could be partially explained by the Greek presence in Bactriane and arounding regions during three centuries (From 325 BC (Alexander) to 15AD the end of the last indo-greek kingdom in Pendjab).http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Greeks (nice map)

Tadjiks are descendants of old inhabitants of Bactriane and Sogdiane.Balouches are said to come from the Caspian shores and "Balochi is closely related to other Northwestern Iranian languages such as Kurdish".http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Bactrian_Kingdom (nice maps)

It is difficult to know the proportion of Greek "blood" in the nobles of these kingdoms and the following Kuchan and Sakas kingdoms, probably decreasing with the time.

I suspect the I in Iran is recent admixture (for example we know Viking raids reached the Caspian coast of Iran-some of this I is I1 not I2 so a Balkan origin is really out of the question). The sample sizes were also small for those North iranian populations I believe.

There is close to zero Greek ancestry in Central /South Asia. Why do people feel the need to invoke such ridiculous theories? There is enough R1b in Northern iran and iranian dynasties have ruled the region for how much more than Greeks and their short lived empire. Yet the R1b-L23 there is from Europe for some.

This is an interesting point. If I understand it, you are saying that the Caucasian and Iranian popultions with high R1b frequencies do NOT see the same ratios of R1b to I2 that we would expect to see if there was an incursion from SE Europe. Right? Is there any reason to think I2 was late to SE Europe or is sporadic, therefore causing the different mix?

As long as the R1b to I2 ratio is valid, R1b, where it appears in Iranian and Caucasian ethnic groups, appears NOT to come from SE Europe. If not from SE Europe, from where?

I see some of these populations are IE and some are Semitic. Is there any pattern to this? Do we think some of these languages were historical period adoptions?

Just thinking out loud here...

The western Balkans seem to have many times more I2 than the east. If the R1b migration to Iran and Caucasia came from the Eastern Balkans, perhaps there was no I2 to be picked up along the way?

I really doubt this. This is wishful thinking. Like I said the I in Iran is of recent admixture. Its not even all I2. A more reasonable explanation would be R1b originated in Anatolia and is found in iran due to demic diffusion from the territory right next to it.