Regardless, I'm skeptical whether the Pokemon I mentioned are effective enough to be worthy of 'S'. Yes, they are great, but they all have some pretty hard stops, and arguably don't influence the metagame as much as Roserade or Chandelure, who are A-ranked.

I contend that Mew and Heracross tower over the other S-Ranked Pokes in terms of splashability, flexibility, influence, and overall usefulness. Snorlax is really the only thing that comes even remotely close to them.

Well, you said you'd get back to my post about Zoroark but you didn't :P so I'll say it again.

In the UU metagame as defined on this site, Zoroark is slower than 18 other mons which decreases to 10 counting only those in the UU tier. Zoroark's defenses are amongst the worst in the game (quick example out of many NFEs: Mienshao's pre-evo Mienfoo actually has only 15 less hp and 10 less in each defense than Zoroark). Also, thanks to those defenses Zoroark can quite reliably by KOed by a decently powerful priority user further adding to the problem of things outspeeding it which is compounded by its lack of 4x resistances and immunities.

Through its horrible defensive stats any attack made at it becomes powerful, ''boosting'' even offensively weak walls to the point of being able to at worst 2HKO it and necessitating a focus sash against remotely offensive mons.

This brings us to why its other stats and move pool aren't enough. A pokemon like Zoroark needs to go before the other mon does and OHKO it, but it's not as common as its 105 speed stat might indicate that it outspeeds things and even if it does it will hardly OHKO anything without its offensive stat being boosted in some way, and in any case when that way isn't nasty plot + focus sash but instead a life orb, expert belt, specs etc. you open Zoroark up to being OHKOed by just about anything.

Consider prominent threats such as scarfcross, signifying a bunch of mons which "should" be outsped by Zoroark but in the reality of the metagame instead outspeeds it. This brings us to my next point which is that Zoroark's STAB is super effective against two relatively uncommon types but it has great neutral coverage. Neutral coverage however is better on bulky mons because they don't rely on OHKOing to the same extent that mons like Zoroark do which need all the speed, super effective hits and power that they can get to make up for not being able to take the return blow.

One last point of Zoroark's defenses is that you basically can't bring it in on anything except a harmless wall as not only will it faint, its only trump card in illusion will be broken if it takes a damaging move, Zoroark switching in on nigh anything is practically wishful thinking. Consider that even if you do disguise Zoroark as Heracross for example, you still need your opponent to switch so you can boost. This means that you must rely on what your opponent does and what mons he has available. Should you succeed, what you get is an easily revenge killed (particularily if sash is broken by stealth rocks) special sweeper relying on focus miss for coverage that still cannot OHKO neutrally hit bulky or defensive mons reliably to make up for being easily revenged - and as we already concluded, even defensive mons have what it takes to quickly rid the field of Zoroark thanks to its truly horrendous defenses.

Which brings me to why I don't get why Mismagius is actually below Zoroark. Mismagius is a Zoroark that swaps illusion, flamethrower, focus blast (arguably not too much of an advantage anyway with the 30% miss rate) and 15 special attack for levitate, 45 special defense, a typing that completely outclasses Zoroark's and other coverage moves Zoroark doesn't get instead of flamethrower. Illusion isn't hard at all to play around imo and 15 special attack is just not enough to offset the major improvements that Mismagius gets in return. I think Zoroark should be in Mismagius's tier.

Which brings me to why I don't get why Mismagius is actually below Zoroark. Mismagius is a Zoroark that swaps illusion, flamethrower, focus blast (arguably not too much of an advantage anyway with the 30% miss rate) and 15 special attack for levitate, 45 special defense, a typing that completely outclasses Zoroark's and other coverage moves Zoroark doesn't get instead of flamethrower. Illusion isn't hard at all to play around imo and 15 special attack is just not enough to offset the major improvements that Mismagius gets in return. I think Zoroark should be in Mismagius's tier.

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Flamethrower and Focus Blast huge. Mismagius can't do nearly as much to Steel types and Normal types without it, while Zoroark can threaten even Snorlax with a boosted Fighting move.

Not that Mismagius is all that bad, it just doesn't really have the powerful movepool and much better Special Attack stat that Zoroark has.

I agree that Zoroark has its advantages over Mismagius (and I could provide a counter-example with Mismagius being able to take a few special hits, thus conditionally being able to get two boost turns against non-physical threats, to illustrate my point that neither deserves to outrank the other). I just think that in practice, Mismagius is the more reliably useful of the two all things considered and regardless of whether one thinks Mismagius or Zoroark is the more useful I'm confident that neither of them is better than the other enough to merit being in a whole different tier - I don't see what makes Zoroark B and Mismagius C or Mismagius B and Zoroark C (though I would sympathise with the latter).

What makes Zoroark a B is its Choice Specs set (Dark Pulse / Flamethrower / Grass Knot / U-Turn or Focus Blast or even HP Ice) which gets very nice cheap KOs. You lead with a "flygon" and then proceed to use HP Ice on their Gligar lead or Grass Knot on their Swampert lead for the OHKO. This along with Rapid Spin and Xatu is one of the best anti-SR measures you can have in the entire game. If you're Bronzong weak you get to at least heavily weaken Bronzong for free since specs Flamethrower can do like 60%+

Plus your opponent is forced to guess should you disguise yourself as say Mienshao since counters to Zoroark are entirely different to Mienshao counters (cofag beats Mienshao but is creamed by Zoroark, Snorlax is the same the other way around). Mismagius simply can't do this.

And Mienshao is also a good cleaner lategame with Choice Specs since he out speeds most of the unboosted metagame and can do enough to OHKO basically all the offensive mons with a couple hazards out. Its going to be doing upwards of 60, 65% to the bulkiest sweepers (like Shaymin) so the rest will be taking very near fatal damage with dark Pulse alone.

Mismagius is just way too weak and lacking coverage wise to compete with Zoroark.

I've used both Mismagius and Zoroark and personally found Mismagius incredibly underwhelming compared to Zoroark. 105 vs 120 base Special Attack is the difference between 309 Special Attack and 339 Special Attack. Not massive, but from my experience, not negligible. Mismagius also doesn't get Focus Blast, so it has to resort to Weak Power Fighting for coverage. 70 Base Power vs. 120 Base Power is pretty big, and in my opinion, the pros of Focus Blast > HP Fighting far outweigh the cons. For example, Specs Zoroark can 2HKO Snorlax with Focus Blast (though it does need to hit on the switch and hit twice), while Mismagius must have +2 and a Life Orb to guarantee a 2HKO on the same Snorlax (assuming offensive Snorlax since it's the most common one). Mismagius will be in turn OHKOed by Crunch, while if Zoroark hits Snorlax with Focus Blast on the switch and hits again, it wins. Granted, that's only a 49% chance, but a 49% chance is greater than a 0% chance.

Mismagius and Zoroark have the same physical bulk, which cannot be ignored considering potent physical attackers run rampant in UU. Neither win there. Not like Mismagius is easy to bring in either.

From what I've found, Mismagius needs Nasty Plot boosts to do any respectable damage. Zoroark and Mismagius may as well have the same coverage (Ghost + Fighting + Electric only hits 5 more Pokemon super effectively, that's less than 1% of all Pokemon), while Zoroark's coverage moves are outright superior to Mismagius's (Flamethrower hits Bronzong and Heracross, while Focus Blast >>>>>>>> HP Fighting vs Snorlax). Zoroark even has a usable Attack stat, allowing it to utilize Sucker Punch. If you're using NP Mismagius... Well, let's bring in NP Zoroark shall we? +2 LO Zoroark OHKOes Snorlax with Focus Blast. Even if you wanna bring up RestTalk Snorlax, well, all you need is Stealth Rock. Yeah, Focus Blast is way better than HP Fighting. Thank you very much.

tl;dr: Zoroark's access to Focus Blast alone makes it better than Mismagius. I didn't even bring up Illusion once in that argument.

As someone who's managed to get up on the UU leaderboard using nothing but a teams featuring this pokemon, I'm mentioning Shedinja as level C, Shedinja's biggest flaw lies in its reliance upon a spinner, however, when used well, Sheddy can completely change the game, or blow open a game with a well time appearance. I can't really say Sheddy fits anywhere else, mostly because of its inherent high risk/high reward nature.

but if sheddy gets a +2 on say raikou or kingdra then it can easily destroy victini or darm with +2 sucker punch after sr damage. a boosted shadow sneak also does decent damage to most guys. in fact a boosted sucker punch can even beat tornadus after sr which is pretty amazing imo. the only reason i dont see sheddy in c is because hail messes him up badly and that means he requires support from guys like rd kingdra or sunny arcanine or he will be completely useless apart from fodder in some of your matches

I mentioned Rank C because of the definitions, cim, all your points are quite true (though I must be a boss with hitmontop then), but he is effective, especially considering what he is. and given the descriptions of the viability tiers, a polarizing high risk/high reward Pokemon really can only fit in rank C, as anyone saying he's among the worst mon's in the game simply hates taking big risks. I'm not saying he's superpowered,; in my campaign using him he has been effective most games, and when he beats something, he can completely remove that pokemon from the relevancy of the game.

Edit: If mon's that require lots of support to be effective, but can still have the POTENTIAL to change a game, falls within most people's area of "D" than Sheddy lies within that tier, and I request that that note be added on the OP

Shedinja could be D pretty much in every tier since it almost always has decent matchups among Bulky Waters and does spin-block for your troubles, but it handicaps your team really hard in too many matchups and is just unreliable...

C is way too high considering it dies to the only permanent weather in every tier and to every hazard out there.

Well, you said you'd get back to my post about Zoroark but you didn't :P so I'll say it again.

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Sorry, I completely forgot.

In the UU metagame as defined on this site, Zoroark is slower than 18 other mons which decreases to 10 counting only those in the UU tier. Zoroark's defenses are amongst the worst in the game (quick example out of many NFEs: Mienshao's pre-evo Mienfoo actually has only 15 less hp and 10 less in each defense than Zoroark). Also, thanks to those defenses Zoroark can quite reliably by KOed by a decently powerful priority user further adding to the problem of things outspeeding it which is compounded by its lack of 4x resistances and immunities.

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I don't really see how any of this is relevant. It's outsped by a few Pokemon, but base 105 speed is still pretty fast in UU. Zoroark is a glass canon, but makes up for with an ability that lets it force switches or trick people into attacking with the wrong move, so I don't really see the issue here.

This brings us to why its other stats and move pool aren't enough. A pokemon like Zoroark needs to go before the other mon does and OHKO it, but it's not as common as its 105 speed stat might indicate that it outspeeds things and even if it does it will hardly OHKO anything without its offensive stat being boosted in some way, and in any case when that way isn't nasty plot + focus sash but instead a life orb, expert belt, specs etc. you open Zoroark up to being OHKOed by just about anything.

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Zoroark has all it needs to succeed in UU. Between Dark Pulse, Flamethrower and Focus Blast it covers nearly everything you could ever wish to target in UU. I'll admit that Zoroark has trouble OHKOing threats because of its low base power STAB moves, but it has more than juice to 2HKO every conceivable threat in UU, which is relevant since if you correctly use Illusion you'll get a free shot in. I've moved away from using Nasty Plot sets since anything with faster speed can ruin a sweep and have since opted to use a Sub + 3 attacks set or stick Choice Specs for the free boost in power.

Consider prominent threats such as scarfcross, signifying a bunch of mons which "should" be outsped by Zoroark but in the reality of the metagame instead outspeeds it. This brings us to my next point which is that Zoroark's STAB is super effective against two relatively uncommon types but it has great neutral coverage. Neutral coverage however is better on bulky mons because they don't rely on OHKOing to the same extent that mons like Zoroark do which need all the speed, super effective hits and power that they can get to make up for not being able to take the return blow.

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Again, I feel to see how Zoroark's inability to outspeed Scarf Heracross is relevant?? Are you trying to say that Zoroark isn't "fast enough"?? I think that being able to get jump on or tie with everything in the top 30 (sans Choice Scarf users and Raikou) is more than enough for me. When it comes to power, again I won't lie, it definitely needs hazard help if it wants to straight up kill things but I don't see the issue here, those are some of its natural limitations.

One last point of Zoroark's defenses is that you basically can't bring it in on anything except a harmless wall as not only will it faint, its only trump card in illusion will be broken if it takes a damaging move, Zoroark switching in on nigh anything is practically wishful thinking. Consider that even if you do disguise Zoroark as Heracross for example, you still need your opponent to switch so you can boost. This means that you must rely on what your opponent does and what mons he has available. Should you succeed, what you get is an easily revenge killed (particularily if sash is broken by stealth rocks) special sweeper relying on focus miss for coverage that still cannot OHKO neutrally hit bulky or defensive mons reliably to make up for being easily revenged - and as we already concluded, even defensive mons have what it takes to quickly rid the field of Zoroark thanks to its truly horrendous defenses.

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You are not switching Zoroark into anything ever, save Mew (who kind of have no choice or it will rock your shit) Cofagrigus and the occasional Cresselia. You only switch with Zoroark when doubling switching, because if you switch into a Pokemon and take a hit (no matter how minor) you've basically just pissed away the best thing about it - Illusion. The assumption that Zoroark utilizes Illusion bluffs just to boost is faulty man. I almost never use boosting sets with Zoroark; I find that its best sets in UU are Substitute + 3 Attacks and Choice Specs. Sub eases prediction and lets you (usually) come out on top against the next switch in. If you've used illusion correctly, your opponent has brought in a Pokemon with the intent to counter your illusion Pokemon. (EX: You bring in Zoroark disguised as Shaymin, and your opponent either brings in Bronzong or Roserade in response). It's the strongest Zoroark set to use, and the most damage right off the bat imo. Choice Specs is still good (in fact I had a team that was designed around it) with Trick being your trump card (illusion can net you a trick on things like gligar if you use it correctly). I'm not sure why you're bringing up Focus Sash either, its always been kind of a gimmicky option on anything outside of leads in UU.

Which brings me to why I don't get why Mismagius is actually below Zoroark. Mismagius is a Zoroark that swaps illusion, flamethrower, focus blast (arguably not too much of an advantage anyway with the 30% miss rate) and 15 special attack for levitate, 45 special defense, a typing that completely outclasses Zoroark's and other coverage moves Zoroark doesn't get instead of flamethrower. Illusion isn't hard at all to play around imo and 15 special attack is just not enough to offset the major improvements that Mismagius gets in return. I think Zoroark should be in Mismagius's tier.

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I think being able to at least threaten Snorlax with a potential 2HKO (or removing it while weakened) with Focus Blast / Low Kick and access to Flamethrower (which lets it break through Steel-types, Roserade, etc) alone are reasons to use Zoroark over Mismagius. Dark typing also makes it less prone to Umbreon, and it can't be pursuited by Krookodile / Snorlax. Illusion is really just the icing on the cake. I think its a little odd to complain about Zoroark's relative lack of power when Mismagius is pretty much relies on boosting to get decent damage in, and even THEN it can't break through some of the better UU special walls.

I feel like a lot your post unnecessarily harps on a lot of Zoroark's obvious flaws and assumes that Zoroark's main sets often involve boosting of some kind, while neglecting to focus on its flaws. Yeah Zoroark has flaws that keeps it from being a staple (disappointing STAB damage and fraility) but it has more than enough benefits to hang with the B-tier Pokemon. The fact that Mew just dropped into UU should make this a no-brainer, since Zoroark is one of the very best Mew checks in the game.

I might actually consider moving Mismagius up though, since its a decent spin-blocker and it also checks Mew pretty well.

From the definition of the tiers, I would reccomend ditto for Tier B. It requires no support, yet accomplishes its role of revenge killing nigh flawlessly. It's hampered by the multitudes of defensive pokemon in the tier such as cofagrigus, but even then can fire off a haze and save the team from complete annihalation (given that sets including haze seem to be rather common). It's also a great answer towards kingdra as it can easily ohko even after set up. As far as Zoroark goes, he's one of my favorites so I'm a bit biased but he accomplishes the role of a scout better than anything by disguising himself as the teams best sweeper or wall. You can analyze how the opponent responds to it and retalliate with your best option, as a lure he's unmatched and for that he should be A rank in spite of his alleged weakness in ferociousness

Hello, this is the first time I'm contributing to a smogon discussion thread, so I do not know the actual procedure for posting here, but I've read the recent discussion on Zoroak vs Mismagius and although I do agree that Zoroak is stronger than Mismagius in the offensive sense, I think that Mismagius should be placed in the same B tier with Zoroak as well.

I think this because Mismagius can function as an extremely really good spinblocker, while countering most of the common Spinners seen in the UU metagame.

Mismagius can use thunderbolt against Blastoise, sub to prevent toxic Hitmontops, and laugh at claydols. It can even function offensively WHILE maintaining its role as a spinblocker(dual roles?) with nasty plot. Granted that it is weaker than Zoroak in coverage and therefore in damage, but it has a good niche role and does not require too much support(unless you mean hazards to actually lure a spinner, lol) to do its job so it should be in B rank according to the guidelines.

My opinion on Zoroak is that it has suffered a 'similar' fate as Shedinja, with one of the most 'hit-or-miss' abilities which psychologically causes your opponent to switch, but unfortunately has a harder time doing this now due to Team Preview. Your opponent can see your Zoroak illusion from miles away, similar to Shedinja. He will play more carefully and take steps to prevent getting cheap-KO'd, which means that he will pick moves that should at least deal neutral damage to Zoroak itself (or maybe a hazard check to see % damage). But this does not detract from its machinegun special attack.

I'm just saying that mismagius can play different roles which are different from Zoroak and so in a holistic aspect one shouldn't necessarily be in a higher rank than the other. So I think both of them can be in B rank :)

I'd like to start a discussion that Yanmega should be brought up to A rank alongside Sharpedo. Could this be possible?

i don't think crobat is S rank really because it honestly can't check half the tier without being an absolutely weak check. when you look at b and c rank you start to get what i mean i think...does it check arcanine? kind of if you use cb sets and arcanine is hurt already but at best crobat is taking major damage from espeed and if sr is up then crobat is basically dead after bb recoil probably (and if its not up then that says crobat needs large anti sr support). most of b tier isn't check by him at all...even the grass type liligant outspeeds crobat after a qd and can sleep or hp rock him so sure crobat can win one on one but check by revenge killing? no not at all.

Also in those ranks you start seeing even more hard counters in addition to zapdos, like rhyperior and bisharp both of which are terribad for crobat because they not only threaten to kill him and tke basically no damage in the process they also threaten to set up on him and kill the rest of your team!

If someone could prove to me that the np set was effective and could wreck all of crobat's normal defensive counters then I would be much more partial to a S rank.

Personally, I've been playing with Zoroark (specifically Specs Zoroark) for a looooong time in UU (before it even had trick.) I think that it deserves to be in B simply because of the role it plays. Zoroark is pretty much the embodyment of assassination; it's mostly is meant to come in unexpectedly, kill something, and then get out. That's why Specs Zoroark is so effective because you get to hit something as hard as possible as quick as possible (it's also extremely effective now due to the amount of ghost types used in UU at this current time.)

NP Zoroark is okay but it's very rare that you're going to get a strong sweep through a team with something so frail unless A. the entire enemy team is slower than Zoroark or B. Zoroark is behind a sub or C. Your opponent tried to make a play as if they were fighting your disguise (poisoning a wall, using Psychic on Heracross, etc.) In my past experience, those scenarios are a very rare so I'd hesitate to raise Zoroark past B (though a very strong B since sub/sucker punch sets can be very powerful against someone who does make a mistake) unless there's some evidence that NP Zoroark is destroying teams left and right.

Lanturn is not even on the list. Not exactly surprising, since it isn't used that much, but I propose it should be in rank A/B. It's best as a defensive pivot with volt switch/scald/heal bell/discharge. (variations exist obviously, and icebeam/tbolt/toxic are options)

I think it should be Rank A/B because it can switch into basically every bulky water without worry, since its SpD lets it take minimal damage and healbell makes scald nonissue. It can threaten with stab and volt switch out, giving really strong offensive momentum. The water/electric typing is great because ground types will be scared to switch in.

It also stops raikou, zapdos, and a number of other threats because of its unique typing, the former two being Rank S offensive threats. The reason why I recommend lanturn over other bulky waters is because it has volt switch. It works incredibly on offensive teams needing a SpD core. Can't tell you how many times I've volt switched on an incoming roserade/heracross to something like scarf darmanitan or whatever.

That being said, I also want to propose zapdos fall to rank A. Why is it rank S in the first place? It gets stopped cold by a few walls, has no boosting move, and middling base 100 speed for an offensive threat. As a defensive pokemon, stealth rocks weakness prevents it from walling a lot of threats it is supposed to wall. Raikou is much scarier, and isn't weak to SR.

Agreeing that Lanturn should be on the list. B-rank is fine, although I think C-rank would be a bit more fitting. Despite the fact that it can switch into Zapdos and Raikou easily, if they aren't chocied, Lanturn can't do much back. Raikou still gets to set up, Zapdos can HP Grass. It can also switch into bulky waters, but again, can't do much back. Thunderbolt isn't gonna OHKO anything unless you use Specs, and Suicune will get to set up if you aren't Spec'd. Volt Switch just isn't powerful enough to threaten anything, but you can maintain momentum if played right. Still can't touch Swampert. Still though, it does have quite a cool niche, and definitely deserves a spot in C-Rank.

Agreeing that Lanturn should be on the list. B-rank is fine, although I think C-rank would be a bit more fitting. Despite the fact that it can switch into Zapdos and Raikou easily, if they aren't chocied, Lanturn can't do much back. Raikou still gets to set up, Zapdos can HP Grass. It can also switch into bulky waters, but again, can't do much back. Thunderbolt isn't gonna OHKO anything unless you use Specs, and Suicune will get to set up if you aren't Spec'd. Volt Switch just isn't powerful enough to threaten anything, but you can maintain momentum if played right. Still can't touch Swampert. Still though, it does have quite a cool niche, and definitely deserves a spot in C-Rank.

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Well I would argue that you're not using lanturn right. Lanturn isn't meant to "do" much back besides status with scald/discharge, and then switch out to the appropriate check. Lanturn isn't meant to OHKO anything (you can run a LO set but... please don't lol). Which is why it fits well with hazards and proper support to take advantage of volt switches.

Yeah and it will take some time to boost to +6, which should be enough for lanturn to wear it down. I haven't exactly played out the scenario, (i.e 1 on 1 with subCM raikou and lanturn), but it's definitely not a sweep for raikou. When raikou can't sub anymore, lanturn can voltswitch out to a scarf pokemon. I'll emphasize that lanturn is an exceptional specially defensive pivot, much like gligar is physically. A slow uturn/voltswitch is very useful.

But I do agree it's pretty niche, which might cause the rank to be lower. Not the most versatile, though lanturn is arguably the best rainy day set upper (and we know that rain teams are not to joke about)

Lanturn isn't meant to "do" much back besides status with scald/discharge, and then switch out to the appropriate check.

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That's what makes it pretty bad. It can come in on a lot of special attacks, and then proceed to do... not much. It has very little in the way of support. Thunder Wave is nice, Scald is kinda cool, but it hits so poorly and it doesn't have something useful to do like every other wall / tank in the tier. When you factor in that a lot of things it can come in on pack Calm Mind (Raikou, Slowbro, Suicune), it's really quite sad how little Lanturn can do.

Yeah and it will take some time to boost to +6, which should be enough for lanturn to wear it down.

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It loses every. single. time. Raikou's Sub survives most of the time without even a single boost.

That being said, I also want to propose zapdos fall to rank A. Why is it rank S in the first place? It gets stopped cold by a few walls, has no boosting move, and middling base 100 speed for an offensive threat. As a defensive pokemon, stealth rocks weakness prevents it from walling a lot of threats it is supposed to wall. Raikou is much scarier, and isn't weak to SR.

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All talk of Lanturn set aside I can totally agree with this part though basically everything you said is true although I would remember Zapdos does have a boosting move (Agility) which allows it to sweep but only very late game.

The only reason I could see Zapdos is in S is because it can run so many sets all of which are just a little different because it has the stats and moves that let this happen. All sets have the same problem though, they will rarely get past Snorlax, they all are rather weak as a wall if you factor in the SR weakness and they are all easily revenged by things like Darmanitan (excpt the rare Agility set).

First, your logic isn't totally sound. Crobat is stopped cold by some walls, has no useful boosting move, and is SR weak, but totally kicks ass.

Zapdos has a neat variety of sets, almost all of which it can use well. Life Orb and Specs both 3HKO RestTalk Snorlax after Stealth Rock. It's got two weaknesses, both of which are shed by its recovery move, and Stone Edge is extremely easy to stall out with Pressure. It's got everything it needs offensively (Thunderbolt, Heat Wave, HP Grass / Flying, Volt Switch) and it's even got Baton Pass if you're into that. Stealth Rock weakness is honestly its only real flaw at all.

Seriously guys I don't know where you got the idea that Snorlax is a hard Zapdos counter but it's just plain wrong. It can only stop it a handful of times.