After spending two years taking some classes on Zen, reading Chan records in the original Chinese and reading Chan / Zen history for many more years I've concluded that Zen really has little to do with meditation and is actually just a literary movement within East Asian Buddhism.

Zen Master Dogen wrote copious amounts of material and evidently was not spending that time in meditation. He was also occupied in his later life building Eihei-ji.

The purported dialogues between Chinese Chan masters and their disciples (they are fictional according to Dr. John McRae) sometimes see someone meditating, but not often. It is more about a on-the-spot dialogue and teaching.

There is a lot of literature in Chan / Zen that draws on earlier generations of sayings, quotes, experiences and literary devices. To learn even a fraction of it takes at least a year or two assuming you already read basic Literary Chinese. Again, that isn't time spent in the meditation hall.

I simply get the sense that historically, as is the case even today, not a lot of people meditate as we would be told by modern day authors like Sawaki Kodo Roshi or various American Zen teachers. Most Zen priests I know in Japan only meditate when they have to (part of basic training). When they study Zen it is usually reading archaic Chinese literature and trying to interpret the meaning of those vague passages.

So, again, Zen has little to do with meditation. It is just a literary movement. It is even a cultural affiliation one can immerse oneself in.

It is called 文字禪 (wenzi chan), Literary Chan. While literacy and culture has a lot to do with Chan that is not the only thing there is to it. Besides those of high status who composed many works you should consider the hermits and forest monks too - who of course seldom left anything to future generations. One exceptional person is Miyun Yuanwu from 17th century who was from a lowly family and had minimal education. But then his simplistic "hit and shout" Chan was ridiculed and attacked by Hanshan Deqing and many others while at the same time he revived Chan throughout China.

1Myriad dharmas are only mind. Mind is unobtainable. What is there to seek?2If the Buddha-Nature is seen,there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.3Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.4With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,the six paramitas and myriad meansare complete within that essence.

Astus wrote:It is called 文字禪 (wenzi chan), Literary Chan. While literacy and culture has a lot to do with Chan that is not the only thing there is to it. Besides those of high status who composed many works you should consider the hermits and forest monks too - who of course seldom left anything to future generations. One exceptional person is Miyun Yuanwu from 17th century who was from a lowly family and had minimal education. But then his simplistic "hit and shout" Chan was ridiculed and attacked by Hanshan Deqing and many others while at the same time he revived Chan throughout China.

Chan Master Fachang of Damei Shan in Mingzhou was a man of Xiang Yang. His surname was Zheng. In his youth he followed his master in Jingzhou at Yuquan-si. The first time he visited Daji [Mazu Daoyi] he asked him what the Buddha is. Daji said, “This mind is Buddha.” The master then had a great awakening.

During the Tang era of Zhenyuan (785-805) he lived as a hermit in Meizi Zhen seventy miles south of Mount Tiantai's Yuyao. At the time Yan'guan sent a monk into the mountains to find a staff. He lost his way back to the hut. He asked, “How long has it been since the preceptor came to this mountain?” The Master said, “I just see the green and yellow of the four directions.” Again he asked, “Where do I go to get to the road leaving the mountain?” The Master said, “Follow the stream and go.”

The monk returned and reported to Yan'guan. Yan'guan said, “When I was at Jiangxi, I once saw a monk and since then have not known of his condition. Is it not this monk?” He then dispatched the monk to enquire after the Master.

The Master had a verse and said, “The ravaged dead tree leans in the cold forest. How many times does it meet spring without changing its mind? The firewood collector encounters it and does not even look at it. Can even the famous carpenter recollect and revisit old things?”

Daji heard of the Master residing in the mountain. He dispatched a monk who arrived and asked, “What did you obtain seeing Master Ma and then to reside in this mountain?” The Master said, “Master Ma said to me that the mind is Buddha and I then came to reside here.” The monk said, “Master Ma's recent Buddha-dharma is now different.” The Master said, “How is it different?” The monk said, “Now it is said not mind and not Buddha.” The Master said, “This old man is not yet done deluding people! No matter you [insist] it is not mind and not Buddha, I will just [say] the mind is Buddha!” The monk returned and informed Patriarch Ma. Mazu Daoyi said, “Assembly! The plum is ripe.”

Here is an account of Damei Fachang. It is full of vague literary allusions. It is also probably a fictional portrayal. Did he really go live out in the mountains for some great length of time? Maybe, maybe not.

There no doubt were hermits who would spend much time in solitude meditating, but then Chan lineage in the Song Dynasty onward was especially relevant in selecting abbots. If you were that prominent a member in the lineage, you probably had other matters to tend to other than meditation.

On that note in East Asian Buddhism meditation is not really limited to any one school. Tiantai's Zhiyi wrote a manual on meditation which is still in use today. Pure Land practitioners have their own meditation methods, too. Shingon also has their own program.

It can probably be said that in all other traditions too meditation was largely left to a few individuals. The difference is that Chan / Zen somehow gets the reputation of being the 'meditation school' when in reality it is largely just a literary movement coupled with a deep interest in genealogical matters.

Huseng wrote:I've concluded that Zen really has little to do with meditation and is actually just a literary movement within East Asian Buddhism.

Seems like a bit of an over-generalization.

Huseng wrote:I simply get the sense that historically, as is the case even today, not a lot of people meditate

This isn't unique to Chan/Zen. The same can be said with regard to other Asian lay communities and monastics of Theravāda and Tibetan Buddhism. Sustained, dedicated development of śamatha-vipaśyanā has never really been a mainstream concern.

Huseng wrote:I've concluded that Zen really has little to do with meditation and is actually just a literary movement within East Asian Buddhism.

Seems like a bit of an over-generalization.

Is it though? Most activities of Zen both historically and in the present day has little to do with meditation. There are some who have made efforts to emphasize meditation like Sawaki Kodo Roshi and Chan Master Sheng Yen, but they're exceptional.

This isn't unique to Chan/Zen. The same can be said with regard to other Asian lay communities and monastics of Theravāda and Tibetan Buddhism. Sustained, dedicated development of śamatha-vipaśyanā has never really been a mainstream concern.

Still, Zen is associated with meditation and enlightenment in the here and now. This is how it is explained anyway by proponents of Zen in the English speaking world anyhow. The image of the robed monk sitting in zazen is the popular image of Zen when in reality it is quite different.

There is a lot of discussion of how such and such a famous patriarch achieved realization (quite often through hearing a phrase from one's master), but not a lot of emphasis on actually sitting down and meditating.

Huseng wrote:Is it though? Most activities of Zen both historically and in the present day has little to do with meditation. There are some who have made efforts to emphasize meditation like Sawaki Kodo Roshi and Chan Master Sheng Yen, but they're exceptional.

There's the 3 month retreat intensives in Korea, and from what I've heard there are still Seon monastics who enter into solitary meditation retreat for extended durations. There are also Chan monastics who observe the austerity of refraining from lying down, and so on.

I agree very well that Zen is a "literary movement", meaning that it's full of rhetorical methods and relies heavily on written materials. Also, as you mentioned, lineage and Zen masters were/are the matter of leadership, the abbots of monasteries who are busy with obtaining lay support and organising the community. There are now a couple of studies investigating in depth the development of the Zen school throughout the centuries in terms of socio-political events.

Geoff, what you mention in Korea is their system of dividing the year into three months periods where summer and winter are for retreats, spring and autumn are for wandering. But retreat doesn't necessarily mean one has to sit in the hall, it is just one of the options a monk/nun can choose.

But besides that Zen has little to do with rigorous meditation, meditation retreats are usually done once in a while by many monastics as part of their training. Although there's not much specifically Zen in that.

I think there are three important factors in Zen that made it the most successful form of Buddhism in East Asia: sudden enlightenment, dharma lineage and literary style. These three proved to be useful in organising monasteries and involving the literati to give ample support for the Zen people instead of others when they had to vote for the new abbot in a public monastery.

side note: the "dharma lineage" idea that created the Zen family (禪家) - besides its resonance with EA culture - makes it look like a mafia group...

1Myriad dharmas are only mind. Mind is unobtainable. What is there to seek?2If the Buddha-Nature is seen,there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.3Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.4With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,the six paramitas and myriad meansare complete within that essence.

LastLegend wrote:If you get Buddha's teachings, then that's meditation.

Buddha's teaching, if understood, can in an instant destroy the samsara mind and lead to a tranquil state of mind.

There are many kinds of meditation in Zen. Sitting is one type but mindfulness, holding a koan and walking meditation are also meditation. I stayed with a Soto Zen monk for a while in Japan many years ago and we practiced sitting meditation 4 times a day. We sat for 40 minutes in the morning, did walking meditation and sat for another 40 minutes. We did the same thing in the evening. I've also gone to the old Zen Center in San Fransisco. They did the same. They had morning and evening sitting meditation periods with walking meditation in between (good idea as it helps circulation in the legs). So if people think that Zen monks sit most of the time, that's not true. But it is my experience that they sit a significant amount of time.

Last edited by Kyosan on Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

Huseng wrote:Is it though? Most activities of Zen both historically and in the present day has little to do with meditation. There are some who have made efforts to emphasize meditation like Sawaki Kodo Roshi and Chan Master Sheng Yen, but they're exceptional.

There's the 3 month retreat intensives in Korea, and from what I've heard there are still Seon monastics who enter into solitary meditation retreat for extended durations. There are also Chan monastics who observe the austerity of refraining from lying down, and so on.

Quite frankly, I see a lot of sectarianism on this board, much more than I've seen in real life. To me, it's quite alarming. We are all brothers and sisters in the dharma and there is no need to put each other down. We should try to be supportive of each other.

LastLegend wrote:If you get Buddha's teachings, then that's meditation.

Buddha's teaching, if understood, can in an instant destroy the samsara mind and lead to a tranquil state of mind.

There are many kinds of meditation in Zen. Sitting is one type but mindfulness, holding a koan and walking meditation are also meditation. I stayed with a Soto Zen monk for a while in Japan many years ago and we practiced sitting meditation 4 times a day. We sat for 40 minutes in the morning, did walking meditation and sat for another 40 minutes. We did the same thing in the evening. I've also gone to the old Zen Center in San Fransisco. They did the same. They had morning and evening sitting meditation periods with walking meditation in between (good idea as it helps circulation in the legs). So if people think that Zen monks sit most of the time, that's not true. But it is my experience that they sit a significant amount of time.

San Francisco Zen Center is not representative of Soto Zen.

The reality in Japan is that most Soto Zen priests do not meditate beyond what is required of them.

Astus wrote:But besides that Zen has little to do with rigorous meditation, meditation retreats are usually done once in a while by many monastics as part of their training. Although there's not much specifically Zen in that.

Interestingly the trend in the English speaking world at least is to interpret the meanings of those Chan records and Dogen's nebulous writings with insights experienced through meditation.

Ironically it might be the case that those records were not written from such an experience and by interpreting those records through meditative experiences people are "reading" meaning into the material.

I think the old old "Chan" texts attributed to Bodhidharma are derived from yogic insights. They are from a time before any "Chan" identity emerged.

I think there are three important factors in Zen that made it the most successful form of Buddhism in East Asia: sudden enlightenment, dharma lineage and literary style. These three proved to be useful in organising monasteries and involving the literati to give ample support for the Zen people instead of others when they had to vote for the new abbot in a public monastery.

I think having a long list of patriarchs in your lineage, equal in footing to the past Buddhas, earns a lot of respect from the community. Or at least it did in medieval China and Japan.

side note: the "dharma lineage" idea that created the Zen family (禪家) - besides its resonance with EA culture - makes it look like a mafia group...

It is really just another cultural current in East Asia manifesting itself: the desire for cohesive family units. In the case of monastics who abandoned their families (or at least on paper this is so), they created a new family unit complete with modified forms of ancestor worship.

This isn't a bad thing and it worked well for them. I just don't see this going over well in the modern day either in East Asia or western countries. The idea of even cohesive nuclear families is itself breaking down.

I'm sure there were Zen teachers (abbots) without insight into the depths of Buddhism, however, that I would rather not generalise. Many of them were monks for one or two decades already when got into the position of Zen teacher, so technically they were elders. Also they were supposed to be outstanding people within the community and that's why they were chosen to serve as leaders. They had the necessary education and understanding to maintain the quality of the monastic training. Of course, when we think of thousands of temples and convents where each of them needed an abbot (member of the Zen family) it is natural that some Zen teachers were better than the others.

1Myriad dharmas are only mind. Mind is unobtainable. What is there to seek?2If the Buddha-Nature is seen,there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.3Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.4With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,the six paramitas and myriad meansare complete within that essence.

Astus wrote:Geoff, what you mention in Korea is their system of dividing the year into three months periods where summer and winter are for retreats, spring and autumn are for wandering. But retreat doesn't necessarily mean one has to sit in the hall, it is just one of the options a monk/nun can choose.

Yes, and some do choose it. And some also choose to enter into longer solitary retreat.

Jñāna wrote:Yes, and some do choose it. And some also choose to enter into longer solitary retreat.

And that is all right. But there are two things to see here I believe: 1. Zen is not mainly about meditation practice, 2. meditation practice (up to its ascetic form) is not restricted to Zen but is present in all traditions (including Pure Land).

1Myriad dharmas are only mind. Mind is unobtainable. What is there to seek?2If the Buddha-Nature is seen,there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.3Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.4With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,the six paramitas and myriad meansare complete within that essence.

If you mean silent seated meditation, then I agree. But most every Buddhist tradition attempts to foster mindfulness and full awareness in a student during all four postures (i.e. during all activities). This aspect of training falls within the aggregate of samādhi (samādhiskandha).

Astus wrote:2. meditation practice (up to its ascetic form) is not restricted to Zen but is present in all traditions (including Pure Land).

Indeed it is. Also, the regimen of intensive 90 day practice periods in China goes back at least as far as Zhiyi.

If you mean silent seated meditation, then I agree. But most every Buddhist tradition attempts to foster mindfulness and full awareness in a student during all four postures (i.e. during all activities). This aspect of training falls within the aggregate of samādhi (samādhiskandha).

There is prescriptive and there is descriptive.

We had a lengthy discussion earlier about conventions contrary to scripture which touched on this. Anyway.

Astus wrote:2. meditation practice (up to its ascetic form) is not restricted to Zen but is present in all traditions (including Pure Land).

Indeed it is. Also, the regimen of intensive 90 day practice periods in China goes back at least as far as Zhiyi.

Interestingly at Foguangshan University in Taiwan they have a rule that in order to get your MA in Buddhist Studies you must complete a one-week meditation retreat. I thought that was a good idea. I don't have to do any meditation for my MA degree, though the undergrads here have to get credits in zazen class like you would in gym class.

My point is that while some monastics meditate regularly and some go so far as to become hermits, this is by no means the standard in Zen or any other institutionalized tradition. I think in reality most Buddhists, monastic and lay, spend more time chanting sutras than meditating over the course of their lives. Zen meditation classes might be reasonably popular in some western cities and I know of a few here in Tokyo, too, but that is such a small minority of people in the big picture. The average lay Buddhist wants blessings and merit from reciting a text. Again, there is nothing wrong with this.

To borrow a term from Jan Nattier it is the "spiritual elite" that engage in those yogic endeavors that result in realization. They are a minority in any tradition including Japanese Zen and Chinese Chan. This seems to have always been the case.

Huseng wrote:To borrow a term from Jan Nattier it is the "spiritual elite" that engage in those yogic endeavors that result in realization. They are a minority in any tradition including Japanese Zen and Chinese Chan. This seems to have always been the case.

Huseng wrote:To borrow a term from Jan Nattier it is the "spiritual elite" that engage in those yogic endeavors that result in realization.

Sudden enlightenment is a teaching that makes yogic/ascetic practices also unnecessary, an important feature of Zen. The huatou practice is an obvious combination of literary works and meditation in daily activities.

1Myriad dharmas are only mind. Mind is unobtainable. What is there to seek?2If the Buddha-Nature is seen,there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.3Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.4With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,the six paramitas and myriad meansare complete within that essence.