Don't agree on them missing dates. Makeb was supposed to be before the end of the year. This was stated months before the F2P was announced which obviously pushed Makeb back. It actually sounds reasonable if you think about it dispassionately. I can't think of anything else they missed a date on. Help me out, it's 2am here [COLOR="red"]

The biggest offender of missing dates was the ranked warzone nonsense that was so bad they gave everybody subbed at the time a free month to try and stop the hemorrhaging of subs they were dealing with as a result right before a quarter end. The others I can think of are smaller things like Cathar and things that don't have nearly as large impacts.

I've seen similar stuff in games like vindictus.
BIS gear for a story arc tends to be a little better than the next arcs green set.
If you played during TBC, you probably remember guilds clearing kara10 in naxx40.
Same idea.

You cleared it with some Naxx 40 gear, but by the time you hit the later zones and did a few normals you replaced even some of that gear. Its sort of the same thing but not totally. Some of the level 65+ Blues > 40 man Naxx gear. I guess as long as the new Instances drop better gear and the the raids from there it will work out ok.

---------- Post added 2013-01-03 at 02:58 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Parrin

People, Blizz has been hyping new character models since Wrath. They've been working on them for 4+ years now. I didn't want nor did I care about the Paths, Tides, or dances.

They have been talking about wanting to do a lot of things, but until they started redoing the Druid models they didn't even remotely hint at it was being worked on. MoP beta was really the first time they mentioned being anything they were actually working on internally. The latest post I read from them basically said they are still working on them, but odds were they wouldn't be ready during MoP, although it was a possibility.

You can tell they have been working on something anyways, the last Gryphon and Wyvern mounts got updated models and they look pretty dang good compared to the old ones.

The biggest offender of missing dates was the ranked warzone nonsense that was so bad they gave everybody subbed at the time a free month to try and stop the hemorrhaging of subs they were dealing with as a result right before a quarter end. The others I can think of are smaller things like Cathar and things that don't have nearly as large impacts.

Which makes it reasonable to neglect everything they promised/ brought into the game last year?! Tell me I'm wrong but I don't think that when they announced to release Makeb/ Cathar this year they planned on introducing F2P to SWTOR. Was it even in the "coming this year" part or in the "coming soon" part of the promo video? I don't remember.

We had a small discussion about same gender relationships in guild yesterday. For us it's not really something important, however judging at the crowd wanting it, they are a large amount which makes it reasonable and also important to implement it even though it won't make my game experience any better.

I'd really like to have an answer to what they are going to do with ranked as there is 0 initiative to go there at the moment.... . I will judge the word of Bioware according to what they'll deliever, at what time and in what quality... I'll leave the complaining about unreleased content to others.

oh dear. Ppl going nuts on the official forums... seems like including a couple of sgr npc's is a huge insult to pvpers who according to some have been totally neglected over the past year o_O Really?

Anyway, SGR - as I see it - is just a couple of questlines or small parts of questlines. Seems small compared to the announced PVP stuff coming before Makeb not to mention the two new WZs we have gotten the past year.

Which makes it reasonable to neglect everything they promised/ brought into the game last year?! Tell me I'm wrong but I don't think that when they announced to release Makeb/ Cathar this year they planned on introducing F2P to SWTOR. Was it even in the "coming this year" part or in the "coming soon" part of the promo video? I don't remember.

We had a small discussion about same gender relationships in guild yesterday. For us it's not really something important, however judging at the crowd wanting it, they are a large amount which makes it reasonable and also important to implement it even though it won't make my game experience any better.

I'd really like to have an answer to what they are going to do with ranked as there is 0 initiative to go there at the moment.... . I will judge the word of Bioware according to what they'll deliever, at what time and in what quality... I'll leave the complaining about unreleased content to others.

Cathar was announced before f2p and they said it would be available prior to the end of 2012. I have compared them to a bad new employee or a child that doesn't know that you don't keep promising things without doing them. At some point talk of what they might do became almost all they had and they don't seem to realize ppl know you judge by actions not statements.

I completely agree that RWZ are a bit of a mess right now. Since they aren't merging things like they should at least on my server it is the same 3 teams that queue for them and any others don't have a chance to win unless they get really lucky and another random group queues also and some how they dodge the other teams.

What they introduce to the game isn't as important to me at this point as them adding the features they say they will or make changes they have said will be made. "Soon" and other phrases are played out by them and start looking more like a screw off keep paying us while we do nothing.

What they introduce to the game isn't as important to me at this point as them adding the features they say they will or make changes they have said will be made. "Soon" and other phrases are played out by them and start looking more like a screw off keep paying us while we do nothing.

Giving out dates = not being able to keep them = same result. So how would you like to have it?

I'd prefer to know what they are "soon" planning to do and what they are working now. People put too much weight on dates but people also seem to believe that they can't unsubscribe/ let the game rest for a few months and do something they actually enjoy... . I'm much more interested in what exactly they are doing rather than having an exact date which can/ can't be kept as "promised". People go apeshit over everything, just give them enough time to think about it.

@Ixator

people are dumb... . Roleplayer going apeshit not having chat bubbles/ same gender relationships, other people judge people on wanting to have same gender relationships and again other people are jeaulous because Roleplayer get some love the first time while PvP player got much more attention. I'm more of a pvp player myself but the constant complaining about everything everytime is beyond logic.

Which makes it reasonable to neglect everything they promised/ brought into the game last year?! Tell me I'm wrong but I don't think that when they announced to release Makeb/ Cathar this year they planned on introducing F2P to SWTOR. Was it even in the "coming this year" part or in the "coming soon" part of the promo video? I don't remember.

To my knowledge, they hinted that both would be out this year (if not flat out stated it). Yes, this was before the official F2P announcement (Makeb being at E3 [beginning of June] and Cathar being...sometime, and the F2P announcement being at the end of July), but if they weren't already in the early planning stages of the transition at the time, my mind would be blown.

Couple that with the fact that there was no communication of, "Hey guys, I know we discussed wanting to bring Makeb and Cathar around in 2012, but with the freemium transition and some of the other content we're working on, we've had to delay it. We just wanted to let you guys know because it's something we're still working on getting out to you as quickly as possible, but we wont' be releasing it when we had hoped." and you have a pretty shitty situation.

Couple that with the fact that there was no communication of, "Hey guys, I know we discussed wanting to bring Makeb and Cathar around in 2012, but with the freemium transition and some of the other content we're working on, we've had to delay it. We just wanted to let you guys know because it's something we're still working on getting out to you as quickly as possible, but we wont' be releasing it when we had hoped." and you have a pretty shitty situation.

This seems to be rather common in MMO's.... and no... I'm not supporting this kind of "missing of communication" at all.

Giving out dates = not being able to keep them = same result. So how would you like to have it?

I'd prefer to know what they are "soon" planning to do and what they are working now. People put too much weight on dates but people also seem to believe that they can't unsubscribe/ let the game rest for a few months and do something they actually enjoy... . I'm much more interested in what exactly they are doing rather than having an exact date which can/ can't be kept as "promised". People go apeshit over everything, just give them enough time to think about it.

@Ixator

people are dumb... . Roleplayer going apeshit not having chat bubbles/ same gender relationships, other people judge people on wanting to have same gender relationships and again other people are jeaulous because Roleplayer get some love the first time while PvP player got much more attention. I'm more of a pvp player myself but the constant complaining about everything everytime is beyond logic.

When they do most of the things they say they will in a time span close to what they said soon wont seem like such a slap in the face. They shouldn't give release dates, this is a hard lesson they learned with 1.4 they gave a hard date and missed it and ppl flipped out. Some for valid reasons like they stayed subbed waiting for that patch or extended sub times. It seems like they just keep telling us what they will do and not actually doing things. So for me when the list of things they are saying they will do doesn't seem bigger or have more game changing things on it then the list of things they are actually doing it wont be as bad. It isn't so much ppl putting too much weight on dates as much as them saying one thing and doing another. You can only not deliver so many times before ppl blow off everything you say.

When they do most of the things they say they will in a time span close to what they said soon wont seem like such a slap in the face. They shouldn't give release dates, this is a hard lesson they learned with 1.4 they gave a hard date and missed it and ppl flipped out. Some for valid reasons like they stayed subbed waiting for that patch or extended sub times. It seems like they just keep telling us what they will do and not actually doing things. So for me when the list of things they are saying they will do doesn't seem bigger or have more game changing things on it then the list of things they are actually doing it wont be as bad. It isn't so much ppl putting too much weight on dates as much as them saying one thing and doing another. You can only not deliver so many times before ppl blow off everything you say.

However this is not how it works. What we are doing here is luxury complaining about a "video game". If a company is delivering what they are saying and they make another step and giving out dates.... people will same angry as they are now if Bioware is not telling them when something will be released.

As for their mistake of making peope believe that subscriber won't have to pay for the "expansion"... they didn't hold up to what they were saying.... announcing stuff only when it is set in stone which wasn't the case for Makeb obviously as we are being charged for it now. Bioware clearly has a huge problem in communication towards their fans/ players and they have a similar huge problem with announcing changes loud and clear for everyone to hear (complementary cartel coins anyone?).

You can talk people into staying but you can't make them stay by ignoring them and therefor, they should just share everything they are working on, make polls on some key decisions during the development, including their players and people will start loving to be part of this community. It's just a matter of balls, honesty and responsibility towards the game and its players.

However this is not how it works. What we are doing here is luxury complaining about a "video game". If a company is delivering what they are saying and they make another step and giving out dates.... people will same angry as they are now if Bioware is not telling them when something will be released.

As for their mistake of making peope believe that subscriber won't have to pay for the "expansion"... they didn't hold up to what they were saying.... announcing stuff only when it is set in stone which wasn't the case for Makeb obviously as we are being charged for it now. Bioware clearly has a huge problem in communication towards their fans/ players and they have a similar huge problem with announcing changes loud and clear for everyone to hear (complementary cartel coins anyone?).

You can talk people into staying but you can't make them stay by ignoring them and therefor, they should just share everything they are working on, make polls on some key decisions during the development, including their players and people will start loving to be part of this community. It's just a matter of balls, honesty and responsibility towards the game and its players.

Other mmos don't give hard dates on anything other then things that require marketing or needs to be sold in stores, like real expansions. As for letting the players decide what they do based on polls, sure that might make ppl happy during the polling time, as soon as it is over ppl will flip out. Taking imput from the player base is good, letting them decide what you do not so much. BW/EA is well past taking real feed back and any sort of meaningful two way imput anyways. Hoping for this with any company is a pipe dream but with BW you'd have a better chance selling icecream on the sun.

I didn't mean that Bioware would let player decide entirely what they want, rather pulling "the wall of crazy" into daylight and let people decide which feature they want most with a rough estimate developing time of each. Maybe player would come to the same conclusion that they'd rather have small stuff which can be developed faster = more small content than having for example Guildship-space combat. I don't think Bioware at this point needs any new ideas.... they already have more than enough but rather pinpointing which should see the daylight the earliest. If "we" could bring to have several small content pieces in one patch, for example at least two or three and Bioware could agree on this with.... I don't see a downside for anyone. People will complain no matter what you are doing, as long as you respect at least some part of your playerbase.

Which makes it reasonable to neglect everything they promised/ brought into the game last year?! Tell me I'm wrong but I don't think that when they announced to release Makeb/ Cathar this year they planned on introducing F2P to SWTOR. Was it even in the "coming this year" part or in the "coming soon" part of the promo video? I don't remember.

Actually, I wouldn't go so far as to say they weren't planning to bring F2P when they announced Makeb/Cathar. If everyone remembers correctly (I know I remember my anger pretty well), there were Google docs of surveys involving how much people would pay for this particular bit of content. That tells me that it's entirely possible they had already begun looking into a F2P model.

They've said that they had been looking at F2P since pre launch in an interview.

Which makes me even more furious that they didn't launch as F2P.

Yep. They used everyone like Moneypigs. Launched with a box cost and a sub model 'just to see' how much money they could get, then went F2P like they planned from the start. Wouldn't be surprised if it was supposed to be F2P, but the amount of money they wasted getting to the release state prompted EA to force their hand into a sub model.

Not like it would have been any better lanuching with this F2P...we all know those comments from John R. about charging to reload...so it might have been even scarier back then.

Yep. They used everyone like Moneypigs. Launched with a box cost and a sub model 'just to see' how much money they could get, then went F2P like they planned from the start. Wouldn't be surprised if it was supposed to be F2P, but the amount of money they wasted getting to the release state prompted EA to force their hand into a sub model.

Not like it would have been any better lanuching with this F2P...we all know those comments from John R. about charging to reload...so it might have been even scarier back then.

It's possible, but ESO has already said they plan on doing a P2P to start and then phase into a F2P. Which, to me, is mind-blowing that A) they think that's a good business plan and B) they'd tell people that is their planned business model.

It's possible, but ESO has already said they plan on doing a P2P to start and then phase into a F2P. Which, to me, is mind-blowing that A) they think that's a good business plan and B) they'd tell people that is their planned business model.

If this is true, I just lost all respect for them that I might have had. Looking at the game, I was actually starting to think it was decent. If they have actually stated that, I will never give them a cent of my money.