That would be a good debate question, by the way. "Governor there seems to be a lot of attacks in the media against your opponents. Are you violating Reagan's 11th Commandment? For instance, is your campaign responsible for the recent attack on Senator Santorum?"

Didn't we all just recently learn, during the kerfuffle over Santorum raising the spectres of religious sincerity and/or adherence to a secular faith, that religion is a strictly personal thing, out of bounds for anyone to question?

I kind of think that I remember from my Catholic upbringing that the ashes should be worn until sunset, so, if that's the case, it shouldn't be an issue since the debate will be later. But, of course, I think the evening masses are usually over after sunset, so I'm not sure about that.

I must confess that in my youth (in a region where Catholicism was kind of weird), I had a penchant for going to noon mass on Ash Wednesday. Yes, I got to skip school, which was nice, but I also got kind of a kick out of having people ask about them. It's something that I grew out of, of course, once I got a better understanding of the whole religious exhibitionism thing.

Didn't we all just recently learn, during the kerfuffle over Santorum raising the spectres of religious sincerity and/or adherence to a secular faith, that religion is a strictly personal thing, out of bounds for anyone to question?

I don't agree that's what we learned. I personally think we should get everyone's cards out on the table so we see where they're coming from.

My ashes always fade before the end of the day. I don't see how Santorum's could be intact after a full day of campaigning and, as Bob observed, stage makeup. If he's got a visible smudge on his forehead at the debate, it's an intentional and calculated display of religion--something I loathe from politicians. Biden's was incidental--a matter-of-fact but non-threatening reminder to people like Andy R. that Christians exist in politics and they should get over it, and I found that charming.

If we need to inject religion into politics, maybe just ask what each candidate gave up for Lent. I gave up soda. Which I love. Deeply.

But the question of whether anyone should leave the ashes on one's forehead or wash them off is a question of prudential balance.

On the one hand, as Jesus says in the Sermon on the Mount, we are called to be a witness of Christ to the world, to not be ashamed of Him or otherwise deny that we are Christian.

On the other hand, as Jesus says in the same Sermon soon thereafter, but be sure not to be a self-aggrandizing poseur who makes a big show of his religiosity only in order to gain the praise of others.

So, a judgment call is required for the Christian to continue to be a visible presence in the world, but not for our own benefit, but so that others might be more drawn to God.

phx and Jose_K, exactly! Either all the cards are face up, or not. Obama's a Christian? Fine. I can't question that? OK. But in that case, shut your trap about ashes on the foreheads.

In general, I think it's wise, respectful, and nice to just assume that individuals' faiths are their own affair. Like phx, I still judge them on those faiths and on my assessments of their adherence to them.

Saint Croix - "Are you violating Reagan's 11th Commandment? For instance, is your campaign responsible for the recent attack on Senator Santorum?"===============That those holy words issued forth from the lips of Reagan the Magnificent and he campaigned as the nice guy who never spaketh ill of a fellow Republican is the biggest load of shit in Reagan lore.Bigger that bankers and Wall Street as the moral standouts in the community, could be trusted to regulate themselves.Reagan was a prime Goldwater attack dog against the nefarious East Coasters led by Rockefeller. He then laid into Nixon in 1968, presenting himself as a good guy forced to slime Nixon.In 1976, his bruising trashing of Gerald Ford weakened the President in the general election. In 1980, he and HW Bush were at each others throats until "Reagan became inevitable" and one of his aides then suggested the 11th Commandment, which Saint Reagan really liked.

Nowadays, it is evoked by people like Newt. Who wants to go negative, but lacks the money to do so..Or in Bob Dole's/McCain's case - aginst opponents that question their entitlement, whether Bob Dole getting his turn from decades of toil in the Republican fields...or McCain's belief that of the 597 POWs, none of the others married a multimillionairess and thus became entitled by SERVING and SUFFERING!! - to be President.

phx said...Newt's a new Catholic convert, and converts always over do it. So Newt will have his entire forehead blackened.===============Well, if the amount of sin and sleaze that could be wiped away was proportional to the amount of ash applied, yes, Newt would have his whole forehead, even face. coated in ash.And if the cameras panned to Callista in the audience, she would look like a chimney sweep.

Actually, Joe, the relevant passages are Joel 1:14 "Announce a sacred fast...and cry out to the LORD," and Mark 8:34 "...let him deny himself, take up his cross and follow Me." An ashen cross is not a disfigurement; it's a witness. I got my ashes at 7 am this morning and they were gone by the time I got home from work just after 5. All day, I only had four co-workers comment on them. One who always does (for some reason my ashes bother her, but other people talking about going to church on Sunday or singing in choir doesn't), two who just moved to my office and hadn't ever seen them, and one friend who asked if I made it to get them toward the end of the day - then she got close enough to see what was left of them.I would be offended if Santorum or Gingrich had them put back on to be seen today.

The Ash Wednesday ceremony is all about repentance, repentance and repentance. That is a good thing since faith without a repentance is useless.

The ashes are a sign that mortal man is ashes and returns to ashes. All very somber stuff. It focuses on the temporariness of all of our lives. It acknowledges that we need God's grace to live eternal lives in heaven.

A smart lawyer would set up a Wills and Estates sales booth outside, and hope that Jesus doesn't overturn their tables and drive them out.

As usual mine wore off pretty quickly. By the time I got home after Mass, and having been to the grocer afterward, I had little more than a black smudge. And by around 3pm that was mostly gone, perhaps due to my taking a nap.

If you want to see me with a black cross on my forehead you pretty much have to catch me in the church parking lot as I leave on Ash Wednesday.

Saint Croix - "Are you violating Reagan's 11th Commandment? For instance, is your campaign responsible for the recent attack on Senator Santorum?"===============That those holy words issued forth from the lips of Reagan the Magnificent and he campaigned as the nice guy who never spaketh ill of a fellow Republican is the biggest load of shit in Reagan lore.Bigger that bankers and Wall Street as the moral standouts in the community, could be trusted to regulate themselves.Reagan was a prime Goldwater attack dog against the nefarious East Coasters led by Rockefeller. He then laid into Nixon in 1968, presenting himself as a good guy forced to slime Nixon.In 1976, his bruising trashing of Gerald Ford weakened the President in the general election. In 1980, he and HW Bush were at each others throats until "Reagan became inevitable" and one of his aides then suggested the 11th Commandment, which Saint Reagan really liked.

Nowadays, it is evoked by people like Newt. Who wants to go negative, but lacks the money to do so..Or in Bob Dole's/McCain's case - aginst opponents that question their entitlement, whether Bob Dole getting his turn from decades of toil in the Republican fields...or McCain's belief that of the 597 POWs, none of the others married a multimillionairess and thus became entitled by SERVING and SUFFERING!! - to be President.

The Episcopalians do it too. But they don't believe the ashes save you.

Catholics don't believe that ashes save you -- what an odd thing to say. The ashes are just a reminder of how short this life is. Wherever did you get the idea that Catholics think salvation lies in ashes? Getting ashes is not even a sacrament, nor is Ash Wednesday a holy day of obligation.

@edutcher: Everytime I see "Milton" I think of Milton Bradley. Of course Parker Bros. were the competition. I wonder if American boomers sorted into MB people vs. Parker Bros. people--sorta like Beatles vs. Stones people.

George Orwell told you long ago — in "Politics and the English Language": "Never use a metaphor, simile, or other figure of speech which you are used to seeing in print."

At the end of the day, this is just a tempest in a teapot. Orwell wants you to go the extra mile, to give your writing 110%, but he is just a dog in the manger. I wouldn't give him the time of day. Let your simile be your umbrella.

That was a weird debate. The debaters kept talking about political philosophy and specific policies. They fought each other on the issues. The moderator and the questioners (how did they select these people?) kept trying to turn it into a high-school-level thing.

Newt won the base; Mitt won the middle; Paul won the fringe. Santorum lost.

PS My snark is a little unfair because IIRC you were/ are a Bostonian-- during Romney's tenure?-- so your dislike of Romney may well be earned. Still: LOL. And I'm so sure you have your "fellow Republicans'" best interests at heart.

Titus: 'cause, you know, I'm just asking. You've got this great troll thing going, and I don't want to, as I heard some years ago, harsh your shred, or anything like that. Far be it from me, especially without access to street lingo!

LOL, Tyrone. I've gradually come to dislike Palin (I was once very much a fan). But there's no denying she has considerable sexual magnetism, for an American female political figure. But if we're fantasizing about hot women presidential candidates, I'd rather see Condi and her boots of shiny, shiny leather.

Titus, I get that. And I can see how Santorum-- with his particular obsessions, moralizing fulminations, sanctimonious prudishness-- might make for the best dirty fantasies. The taming of the shrew!

(Sorry, Bob Ellison. I shouldn't encourage him, and I'm not contributing to serious discussion myself. And sorry, Santorum supporters. But it's not like Santorum hasn't made himself a bulls-eye for this stuff. Santorum certainly doesn't deserve what his name has come to signify in filthy slang. But there's a reason Dan Savage chose "Santorum"-- not any other Republican politician's name, e.g. someone with more national significance at the time-- for his coinage, given the themes-- ostensibly "public policy" issues-- Santorum himself has chosen to focus on throughout his public political career. Like I said, if you're a politician who thinks it's of national importance to talk about "sodomy", then you better know what you're letting yourself in for.

Titus exposes the real tragedy of Sarah Palin's absence from this race.

Precisely. There's no apotheosis for us middle-aged white wingers. There's no totem goddess for us to blindly worship. There is only fetid sodomy (a word yashu brings up in every thread) to distract us from the economy and it's not working.

chickenlittle, I bring it up because it seriously bothers me that Santorum, a presidential candidate (and possible frontrunner), has persistently made it a focal topic of his political career.

You got me, here's one place (among others which Santorum brings up) where my libertarian rubber meets the road. But it's not just ideological. I find it creepy and repellent. I was joking with Titus; I'm deadly serious here. I have beloved gay friends and family member(s). I don't have a problem with Republican/ conservative opposition to gay marriage (I'm agnostic on the matter; I'm for civil unions). But I have a serious problem with the prospect of a POTUS-- ostensibly President of us all-- who thinks it proper *as a POTUS* to share with the American people his moral conviction that sodomy is an evil-- akin to bestiality. Because that's a "pubic policy" issue that he thinks a POTUS should talk about.

Maybe GWB thinks sodomy is icky or morally pernicious too. I respect that, according to his faith, homosexual acts may be deemed sinful. He didn't think it was his duty as POTUS to talk-- lecture to us-- about it. It's the Democrats who brought up Mary Cheney's sexuality, trading on homophobia-- a tawdry move that was soundly rejected by the American people-- not the Republicans.

I'm looking for a POTUS, not a preacher. If I want a preacher, I can choose a church to go to. So, yeah. Maybe to you "sodomy" is a distraction from the economy. FFS I AGREE with you, it *is* a terrible distraction. That's one reason (among others) why Santorum would be a *terrible* GOP candidate.

For the purposes of this comment, I'm leaving aside Santorum's implication that, as a single woman who uses birth control, I'm an immoral whore. Just what I want to hear from my President. You know, I think I'd find it less distasteful to be denounced as an evil 1%er.

Oh, and quit with the Palin pity party. I think I'm pretty good about not mocking Palin or her supporters; I try to be as measured as possible (yet honest) in my criticism. I call things as I see them. If you think I'm mocking you (I'd like you to show me where I've done so), IMO that's on you, not me.

Dollars to donuts says he doesn't. The difference is that Romney and Bush pander to the social conservatives. Nothing wrong with that. It's politics. Obama panders at times to the shrill, silly left. Santorum actually believes the hokum. He's Dennis Kucinich, only taller and diametrically opposed.

But I have a serious problem with the prospect of a POTUS-- ostensibly President of us all-- who thinks it proper *as a POTUS* to share with the American people his moral conviction that sodomy is an evil-- akin to bestiality. Because that's a "pubic policy" issue that he thinks a POTUS should talk about

I think you should go on pretending that the SCOTUS didn't make a ruling related to sodomy and Santorum is just barnstorming the country bringing these topics up out of the blue.