I should have replaced "need to be abseil bolts" with could be abseil bolts. I wont put bolts anywher in ben. Im not chopping anything either. but Gerry will so its kind of a pointless argument. Personally I dont care that there are no abseil bolts either and i certainly dont want bolted routes. i was talking about lack of abseil bolts in relation to style of first ascent and you know that jackass you took what i said out of context.

and gerry has not brainwashed anyone. all trad and no bolts at ben is a world class standard at a world climbing destination. dont screw it up.

>This is the essence of whats going on ... a ' moral out ' to trash everything>else beyond the bounderies of the Ben Lomond National Park ...

I dont see it. Again, your kinda funny but some of this stuff might make sense if you were more specific. Which routes are "trashing everything else"? you say saphire rose? That horse been beaten into the ground for years! The other routes there? Havent climbed any. Probably cool though. Simons new 28? Thats a fun climb and totally independant. An example of GOOD new routing if anything. If you want to convince people about bad bolting be more specific. I think the vast majority of climbs are bolted well. Plus we have the Ben. Its not the other way around.

On 12 and again on 13/03/2011 jesus wrote:>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------> If ya gunna come into da church , then dont throw rocks at the stained glass windows !!! RESPECT !!!!!!!!!!!>

Here you go> If ya gunna come into da church of Chockstone , then dont throw rocks at the stained glass windows !!! RESPECT !!!!!!!!!!!

Fixed that for ya, so you would do well to remember your own advice?
HEXhex-TROLLsandwitch timeQuranky Kieranhex- TROLLIdratherbejamBingIdratherbejamBing19.M10iswhereitsat.IdratherBjamBingEdward SillypantsIdrathrBjamBingIdrthrbdribblnlikeM910mmx178mmCarrotBoltJimminy clip it !!Spring Time Flowersghostjesus.
~> Talk about Lazarus raised from the dead! You have had 17* reincarnations already!!
(*After doing that search of Chocky history I got tired of looking for more, so I might have missed one or two!)
Heh, heh, heh.

Winston has summed up the reality on the ground ... it needs fixing ... Neil is da man to facilitate ...

The ' no bolts at Ben / trash every other crag ' is the other theme here ...

Here is the political state of play in the U . S . & A . :

'...Fixed anchors in wilderness areas have been a hot issue since the early 1990s, when the first bolting bans were issued ... After several years of debate in which it appeared that bolts might be banned in many or all federal wilderness areas, a session of “negotiated rule making” took place in the late ’90s among the Access Fund, AAC, wilderness advocates, and the National Park Service, U.S. Forest Service, and Bureau of Land Manangement.

Two main principles were agreed: There would be no use of power drills in wilderness areas (carried over from the 1964 Wilderness Act, which prohibits the use of motorized devices), but climbers might be able to hand-drill with prior authorization.

However, until recently, the federal agencies had not created policies to implement these ideas. “Around 2000, agencies agreed to go forward with these principles, but they never got it done,” says Jason Keith, Policy Director of the Access Fund. That is, until 2007, when the BLM issued an instruction memorandum regarding the use of fixed anchors. This policy recognized climbing as an appropriate use of wilderness; said that climbers might need prior authorization from land managers; and allowed “placing a few permanent fixed anchors to improve climbers’ safety on sections of routes where the use of removable hardware is not feasible.” ...'

Right ... thats the jist of what I see as the future of ' development ' at Ben Lommond , when I referred to QUALITY semi-bolted adventure routes ...

Never before has a thread been so hard to read ... if you actually have anything worth saying, it helps to make it intelligible. This thread keeps popping up, but I really couldn't be fûcked trying to decipher all this. It's long been written of as bollocks.

On 14/03/2011 Wendy wrote:>Never before has a thread been so hard to read ... if you actually have>anything worth saying, it helps to make it intelligible. This thread keeps>popping up, but I really couldn't be fûcked trying to decipher all this.> It's long been written of as bollocks.

Totally agree Wendy.

*jesus* is obviously trying to make a case for bolting at the Ben but is too incompetent and cowardly to make it.

On 14/03/2011 spicelab wrote:>>*jesus* is obviously trying to make a case for bolting at the Ben but>is too incompetent and cowardly to make it.>
No he's not, he's trying to point out the ridiculous contradiction of leaving stellar aretes at the Ben unbolted for "ethical reasons" whilst nearby, pointless, poxy shit is overbolted by the same crusaders...........he's also probably sick of Gerry and Bob being the bosses of Tassie climbing.

What Jesus, and John, and Gerry should appreciate is that Tassie is a forgotten little backwater, and no-one north of Launceston could care less about all the "progress", "news", or island pissing-matches which go on down there. Big fish failing to notice that the ripples they started don't propagate past the edge of the little pond.

Tassie climbing is just as important as ACT climbing. However, the Canberra climbers worked out 20yrs ago that no-one outside the territory gives a shit!

On 15/03/2011 One Day Hero wrote:>On 14/03/2011 spicelab wrote:>>>>*jesus* is obviously trying to make a case for bolting at the Ben but>>is too incompetent and cowardly to make it.>>>No he's not, he's trying to point out the ridiculous contradiction of>leaving stellar aretes at the Ben unbolted for "ethical reasons" whilst>nearby, pointless, poxy shit is overbolted by the same crusaders...........he's>also probably sick of Gerry and Bob being the bosses of Tassie climbing.

Any old tosser can identify contradictions and hypocrisy, ridiculous or otherwise.

I know exactly how these arguments work, because I use them constantly myself at work to justify new development - especially development of a different nature than historically exists in a particular area.

Nothing is ever pure when placed under the microscope for a sustained period. The case for change becomes a matter of death by a thousand cuts.

*jesus* knows this - why can't he own his motivations rather than sniping from the sidelines in tryhard Hexspeak?

On 15/03/2011 One Day Hero wrote:>Tassie climbing is just as important as ACT climbing. However, the Canberra climbers worked out 20yrs ago that no-one outside the territory gives a shit!

I would argue that Tassy cliffs are slightly more significant than ACT cliffs (although Booroomba is particularly worthwhile for a granite cliff). The Ben is a fairly unique cliff even by world standards. The debate about bolting is warranted.

There is merit in keeping the cliff bolt free. However I am in favour of a bolted rap descent for Frews Flutes as the descent gully for that cliff seems particularly vulnerable to erosion.

On 15/03/2011 simey wrote:>>There is merit in keeping the cliff bolt free. However I am in favour>of a bolted rap descent for Frews Flutes as the descent gully for that>cliff seems particularly vulnerable to erosion.>
Yeah, totally........except maybe the bit about the rap-bolts. There's heaps of plants in Tassie, no one will miss a few.

I haven't jumped ship to sporto-bolto camp. I just reckon its silly to be staunchly anti-bolting at the Ben, and then bolt the living shit out of Hillwood and that poxy sandstone shitcrag near launceston (man, even bundy would think twice about developing such choss!)..........and then writing the pox up in your guidebook as if its awesome?!?!

Fark!..........actually, all the other crags in Gerry's guide were really good (not sure about Fingal, cause we got chased away by inbred yokels with guns before we could climb anything.........seriously!!)

On 15/03/2011 One Day Hero wrote:>On 15/03/2011 simey wrote:> I haven't jumped ship to sporto-bolto camp. I just reckon its silly to>be staunchly anti-bolting at the Ben, and then bolt the living shit out>of Hillwood and that poxy sandstone shitcrag near launceston (man, even>bundy would think twice about developing such choss!)..........and then>writing the pox up in your guidebook as if its awesome?!?!

While I enjoy your rants and usually agree, i don't agree on this point. That's like saying the Gallery is grid bolted so why not grid-bolt Asses ears and/or Mt difficult? Two totally different kettle of fish.

>Fark!..........actually, all the other crags in Gerry's guide were really>good (not sure about Fingal, cause we got chased away by inbred yokels>with guns before we could climb anything.........seriously!!)

As for this point I find it quite strange. The guy who owns(ed? as of NY 2008/2009) the piece of land underneath bare rock is some townsvillain bolter who bought it, is a great, friendly guy who wants to "grid-bolt the living sh!t out of it". Don't know why he'd be chasing you away. We darnk his beer, slept on his floor and ate all his 'roo last time we were there (as said timeframe above).

I thought that I'd reproduce Gerry N.'s latest rant from thesarvo.com for all to enjoy.

It's good to be mentioned in despatches....

"Here I was thinking I was making a positive contribution to the forum, adding some 26 trad routes to the list (which has several 26's on it), then Alex makes some condescending remark about hard routes starting at 27 these days, so I call him a smart arse little prick. So then all the c--kheads like Doug Bruce and Simon Young jump in when its none of their business. I've also noted the trashing tassie thread on chockstone and that Jesus c--khead talking about trashing Fingal, some c--khead named Winston whinging about no bolts on the Ben and Simon dissing the bolts at Hillwood. Firstly to Simon, there were some cutting edge routes done in the Gorge - Seize the Day was the hardest route in Tassie when it was put up on 3 bolts and small wires, which Micheal c--khead Fox retrobolted with 8 bolts much to Simon parsons disgust. If you don't like the bolts on some routes at Hillwood then don't climb them - I don't care - I enjoyed the first ascent and thats all that matters. As for abseil bolts on the Ben - they are gone forever and I'll go to the top of the Flutes when I'm 100 years old in a wheelchair and still chop any bolts that some c--khead has put in. Its all about convenience. They say they want to protect the gullies but really they are lazy. If you want to rap in, set up fixed line from the top off natural gear. When people say `the majority of climbers' want the bolts back - who are this majority? Just a handful of Hobart boys who say they speak for the majority? How arrogant. What about Bob McMahon, Mick Ling, Neale Smith, Simon Parsons, John fantini, Doug Fife, Nick Hanc--k, pete Steane, Bruce Cameron, John Smart etc who all agreed with me and Doug Fife choppng the rap stations. Anyone thought that we could be the majority? As for Fingal, repeat ascensionists of our new sport routes have said - as good as anything I've seen in Tasmania. As for this ridiculous forum, Anna is the only sensible person who has commented; everyone else is a c--khead."

That was hysterical. I guess when taking the lord's name in vain offends your religious sensibilities, you have to take your frustration out by calling everyone côckhead.

I'm one of the debated majority who support rap bolts at Ben Lomand BTW. And Gerry, listing DF as supporting you and him going and chopping bolts is tautologous. Unless you dragged him up there by the scruff of his neck and made him wield an angle grinder with a gun at his head and are now trying to claim he was in of his own free will. You could add yourself to the list of people supporting your actions too if you like. Your rant is almost as nonsensical as those of jesus. This jesus, not that other jesus, so we avoid getting caught up in anymore religious debates.

On 15/03/2011 citationx wrote:>On 15/03/2011 One Day Hero wrote:>>On 15/03/2011 simey wrote:>> I haven't jumped ship to sporto-bolto camp. I just reckon its silly>to>>be staunchly anti-bolting at the Ben, and then bolt the living shit out>>of Hillwood and that poxy sandstone shitcrag near launceston (man, even>>bundy would think twice about developing such choss!)..........and then>>writing the pox up in your guidebook as if its awesome?!?!>>While I enjoy your rants and usually agree, i don't agree on this point.>That's like saying the Gallery is grid bolted so why not grid-bolt Asses>ears and/or Mt difficult? Two totally different kettle of fish.

That's not the same argument, though, is it? It's more like if Joe or Neil, after developing the assorted sport crags they have around the Gramps suddenly jumped on their high horses about rap anchors such as on Tourist Buttress and went and chopped them, ranting and raving they would do the same to any others that appeared. Or that any bolts at all would ruin the feel of Mt Difficult (which does already have bolted routes anyway) and they would chop any that appeared. These are crags, like Araps, that demonstrate that it's not impossible to negotiated appropriate bolts/trad relationships on the one crag.

On 15/03/2011 Winston Smith wrote:>I thought that I'd reproduce Gerry N.'s latest rant from thesarvo.com for all to enjoy.

>As for abseil bolts on the Ben - they are gone forever and I'll go to the top of the Flutes when I'm 100 years old in a wheelchair and still chop any bolts that some c--khead has put in. Its all about convenience. They say they want to protect the gullies but really they are lazy.

It's not about convenience to me. I like the idea of the Ben being completely bolt free and topping out instead of having lower-offs installed all over the cliff. However I was surprised at just how gorgeous that particular descent gully is and how vulnerable it is to climbers tramping down it. One set of abseil anchors for a whole cliff is not unreasonable. Start chopping when people are purely placing bolts for convenience, or to satisfy their own egos.