(Original post by jreid1994)
No there isn't, but do tell me is the fact that women almost always win custody battles sexist?

Have you got a citation for that, or do you just assume it must be the cast?

What about male circumcision still being legal

Certainly not something I support. And not every inequality between the sexes favours men, though it could probably be better said that male circumcision being legal is hardly something that favours women either. It's simply a disbenefit to men, imposed by men.

what about forced envelopment still not counting as rape? Is that sexist?

Rape has a very specific meaning as a legal term of art; that is, the penetration of the mouth, anus or vagina with a penis, without consent. Women can certainly sexually violate men and be imprisoned for it.

I'm also wondering how that is inherently biased against women, considering men can also be raped by men? Or doesn't that count?

But women overwhelmingly win custody cases....

Evidence?

And women are the majority in university not the minority.

Women are a majority at university, and yet within a few years they make up a minority. Looking at law, for example. A majority of law graduates are women, and yet the majority of newly qualified solicitors are men. When you look at newly qualified barristers in the high prestige areas like commercial and chancery, it overwhelmingly runs to men by about 4 to 1.

Women only dominate in the least prestigious areas like family law and immigration.

You think the fact that women dominate in fields that are traditionally considered less prestigious and powerful (as opposed to law, medicine, architecture, politics) is somehow an argument in your favour?

(Original post by MostUncivilised)
Have you got a citation for that, or do you just assume it must be the cast?

Certainly not something I support. And not every inequality between the sexes favours men, though it could probably be better said that male circumcision being legal is hardly something that favours women either. It's simply a disbenefit to men, imposed by men.

Rape has a very specific meaning as a legal term of art; that is, the penetration of the mouth, anus or vagina with a penis, without consent. Women can certainly sexually violate men and be imprisoned for it.

I'm also wondering how that is inherently biased against women, considering men can also be raped by men? Or doesn't that count?

Evidence?

Women are a majority at university, and yet within a few years they make up a minority. Looking at law, for example. A majority of law graduates are women, and yet the majority of newly qualified solicitors are men. When you look at newly qualified barristers in the high prestige areas like commercial and chancery, it overwhelmingly runs to men by about 4 to 1.

Women only dominate in the least prestigious areas like family law and immigration.

You think the fact that women dominate in fields that are traditionally considered less prestigious and powerful (as opposed to law, medicine, architecture, politics) is somehow an argument in your favour?

(Original post by MostUncivilised)
Have you got a citation for that, or do you just assume it must be the cast?

I don't assume, I've got statistics to prove it. As I like looking at numbers, how on earth can you be serious about not knowing this is true?

(Original post by MostUncivilised)
Certainly not something I support. And not every inequality between the sexes favours men, though it could probably be better said that male circumcision being legal is hardly something that favours women either. It's simply a disbenefit to men, imposed by men.

So, that makes it okay because a few bigoted men say so? Why not do the same with female circumcision? Oh wait....

(Original post by MostUncivilised)
Rape has a very specific meaning as a legal term of art; that is, the penetration of the mouth, anus or vagina with a penis, without consent. Women can certainly sexually violate men and be imprisoned for it.

Not a good enough reason for it to not count as rape, in Sweden forced envelopment is definitely classified as rape, so again why shouldn't it be the case in the UK? They're doing a lot better at gender equality than the UK is, by managing to be fair to women and men.

(Original post by MostUncivilised)
I'm also wondering how that is inherently biased against women, considering men can also be raped by men? Or doesn't that count?

Yes, it obviously does count as rape when a man does it to a man, because in the UK is legally defined as a non consensual act of penetration...

The terminology of a criminal act is extremely
important, of all people you should know that.
It's biased against male victims. Do women have a penis? No. It's obviously important because female sex offenders get ligher punishments because of it rape is at least ten years imprisonment and rightly so, but with sexual assult the punishment is widely variable.

And I quote women " family courts award mothers sole custody in 71% of cases and fathers sole custody in 7% of all cases, joint custody is awarded in the remaining 21% of cases." This evidence?

(Original post by MostUncivilised)
Women are a majority at university, and yet within a few years they make up a minority. Looking at law, for example. A majority of law graduates are women, and yet the majority of newly qualified solicitors are men. When you look at newly qualified barristers in the high prestige areas like commercial and chancery, it overwhelmingly runs to men by about 4 to 1.

I was trying to point out men face sexism in different areas. I don't like the fact that this is the case, but I'm trying to prove equality hasn't been established for men either.

(Original post by MostUncivilised)
Women only dominate in the least prestigious areas like family law and immigration.

(Original post by MostUncivilised)
You think the fact that women dominate in fields that are traditionally considered less prestigious and powerful (as opposed to law, medicine, architecture, politics) is somehow an argument in your favour?

really?
medicine and law? considering women make up at the very least, around 55% of graduates in both of those fields, they certainly aren't underrepresented. Women actually make up the majority in law and medicine....

Can we not just accept and celebrate the differences between men and women instead of constantly pretending that we are all the same?

Because of testosterone, men are naturally more dominant and competitive. Throughout history in many diverse cultures and societies, men have always been the leaders. It's natural and fine. All the great male leaders were backed up by a strong woman, who was there for them though. In the past, as a society we weren't make the most of what women had to offer. Now, we are and women have equal opportunities and are probably at or pretty close to maximising what they can offer to society.

In areas like politics, women will always lag behind. To achieve in these sorts of fields you have to be incredibly career driven. Men tend to not be attracted to overly career driven women, so the 'career driven woman' genes and ethos are less likely to be passed on.

If 50% of MPs were women, they would in fact be over-represented, as many of them would be there just because they are women.

On the flip side, given women's superiority in emotional reasoning, do we really want 50% of nurses and carers to be men? Obviously not.

Men are great, women are great and we need each other to stay great and stop trying to be like the other gender! I fear we may be on a path like Japan where men aren't attracted to women because they are too masculine and women aren't attracted to men because they are too feminine!

(Original post by Habibul Bashar)
They basically do have as much of a chance as men. The level of discrimination against women is minimal and can easily be overcome as many female politicians have shown.

Lol, I wish... legal discrimination perhaps not, but social discrimination is still very much alive and well.

(Original post by edithwashere)
Are you really trying to argue that men are not dominant by nature? And I'm not a radical feminist, I'm a feminist, thanks.

Dominant by nature yes, but it modern society? Your making a huge generalisation by saying Male dominance is still present in society, I could easily flip the argument and say Female dominance is now present in society... hmmm!

(Original post by Robbie242)
Dominant by nature yes, but it modern society? Your making a huge generalisation by saying Male dominance is still present in society, I could easily flip the argument and say Female dominance is now present in society... hmmm!

I don't understand what point you're trying to make, my original post which you first quoted was referring to men's natural dominant instincts, which we all know are caused by testosterone, other hormones, social conditioning (i.e. masculinity is status driven, men and boys are told by society that to be successful they should be big and strong and confident, ergo dominant) and various other social factors. If you want to argue that this doesn't exist, then go ahead. It's a pretty damn weak argument on your side.

You're so desperate to make this a man vs woman thing, aren't you? You clearly don't understand a lot about feminism.

(Original post by edithwashere)
I don't understand what point you're trying to make, my original post which you first quoted was referring to men's natural dominant instincts, which we all know are caused by testosterone, other hormones, social conditioning (i.e. masculinity is status driven, men and boys are told by society that to be successful they should be big and strong and confident, ergo dominant) and various other social factors. If you want to argue that this doesn't exist, then go ahead. It's a pretty damn weak argument on your side.

You're so desperate to make this a man vs woman thing, aren't you? You clearly don't understand a lot about feminism.

In 2013, you don't have to give in to societal pressures, I myself enjoy using computers, doing maths etc I wouldn't say I'm dominant at all, my brother on the other hand is like what you described, so what I was really trying to establish is it varies from person to person. And generalising entirely that it just plain exists isn't right, it depends on your background/family/societal pressures/genes etc.

Not really, I'm not a pro MRA, nor am I a pro feminist, I am divided in the middle

(Original post by Robbie242)
In 2013, you don't have to give in to societal pressures, I myself enjoy using computers, doing maths etc I wouldn't say I'm dominant at all, my brother on the other hand is like what you described, so what I was really trying to establish is it varies from person to person. And generalising entirely that it just plain exists isn't right, it depends on your background/family/societal pressures/genes etc.

Not really, I'm not a pro MRA, nor am I a pro feminist, I am divided in the middle

Well I could also generalise and say that women are generally submissive, because we are. It again, is part of our genetic make up. I admire men and women who throw gender stereotypes out of the window and behave however they please, but at the end of the day, who is it who starts wars? Who are the main perpetrators of physically violent abuse?* It's certainly not ALL men, but many more men are guilty of it than women, because violence and aggression stem from dominance, and testosterone makes people stronger and more aggressive - have you ever met someone on roids? They're the scariest thing I've ever seen, there's just too much of all the hormones that bring out such characteristics.

*In case you think I'm being sexist there, I'm really not. On the other side of the coin, you have some women who are emotionally vindictive or manipulative, because that tends to be how women exert dominance of a sort - being physically weaker, they wouldn't do well having a fist fight or something. It's just one of those things, the vast majority of men are dominant by nature, and always will be. Blame the testosterone if you want.

(Original post by edithwashere)
Well I could also generalise and say that women are generally submissive, because we are. It again, is part of our genetic make up. I admire men and women who throw gender stereotypes out of the window and behave however they please, but at the end of the day, who is it who starts wars? Who are the main perpetrators of physically violent abuse?* It's certainly not ALL men, but many more men are guilty of it than women, because violence and aggression stem from dominance, and testosterone makes people stronger and more aggressive - have you ever met someone on roids? They're the scariest thing I've ever seen, there's just too much of all the hormones that bring out such characteristics.

*In case you think I'm being sexist there, I'm really not. On the other side of the coin, you have some women who are emotionally vindictive or manipulative, because that tends to be how women exert dominance of a sort - being physically weaker, they wouldn't do well having a fist fight or something. It's just one of those things, the vast majority of men are dominant by nature, and always will be. Blame the testosterone if you want.

Finally, a decent well thought out balanced post considering both sides of the argument.

I understand it happens MORE to women, but it happens TO men, so both should be treated equally in their judgement (i.e. sentence/jail time etc). I understand in nature men are more likely to be dominant/violent but I hate not hearing any stories of women being like this, the media is a one sided coin, you always hear about female rape, but little to none of male rape. Same goes for domestic violence, campaigns are running for domestic violence against women, but I've heard little to none on domestic violence against men.

We're different, but legally WE should be treated the same and be given the EXACT same punishment for the exact same crime/behaviour.

But I'm glad your post has a lot of the truths to it, its the best one I've seen yet from you.

(Original post by Robbie242)
Finally, a decent well thought out balanced post considering both sides of the argument.

I understand it happens MORE to women, but it happens TO men, so both should be treated equally in their judgement (i.e. sentence/jail time etc). I understand in nature men are more likely to be dominant/violent but I hate not hearing any stories of women being like this, the media is a one sided coin, you always hear about female rape, but little to none of male rape. Same goes for domestic violence, campaigns are running for domestic violence against women, but I've heard little to none on domestic violence against men.

We're different, but legally WE should be treated the same and be given the EXACT same punishment for the exact same crime/behaviour.

But I'm glad your post has a lot of the truths to it, its the best one I've seen yet from you.

The thing is though, feminism is all about stopping these inequalities for BOTH sides. A lot of anti-feminists on TSR bring up the whole, "you only care about women! you're protecting women who commit crimes against men because you just hate men!" - it gets really annoying trying to explain over and over again that its the system thats wrong, its not an attack on men, but an attack on the system which prioritises men (and in some cases can prioritise women over men, divorce courts etc etc).

Real feminism is about gender equality for all, but because of male privilege, I truly believe that women are more disadvantaged in life, socially, than men are. I'm not talking about things like legality, because as formal law, it obviously isn't allowed to discriminate on terms of gender. But things like how women are only portrayed as sex objects in advertising, how men are encouraged to be masculine (and bullied/undermined when they exhibit feminine attributes or agree with women a la the "white knights" as TSR likes calling them) how women are harassed sexually and it's seen as a regular occurrence, if we try and call out said harassment then we're being hysterical or over sensitive - the list can go on and on and on.

It's not about fighting men, it's about fighting a system that sees men as some kind of "default" for human beings, and entire cultures where women are seen as inferior. The problem I have with MRAs, as you may have seen me mention in other threads, is that in theory, they should be feminist allies - we all hate gender inequality, it's totally sucky, so why are we fighting amongst ourselves? Because instead of getting out there and doing something about the inequalities men face (seemingly the only inequalities MRAs care about) they spend their time trying to undermine and derail feminism, which a) is never going to work, and b) just wastes everybody's time.

Gender inequality ties in to a lot of other inequalities - class, race, sexual orientation - they're all things which affect people's lives through no fault of their own. When I see people who argue that male privilege doesn't exist, I can be pretty sure they'll probably argue against white privilege, and heterosexual privilege.

That's just a few reasons to be a feminist (or, if you don't want to identify as feminist, that's fine. But it's more than enough reason not to be an anti-feminist). I believe with all my heart that being a feminist is the right thing to do, and it makes me really sad to see people calling feminists all names under the sun with no backing whatsoever of fact.

There are lots of places male victims can look for help! And it's certainly a problem, but:

"Whilst both men and women may experience incidents of inter-personal violence, women are considerably more likely to experience repeated and severe forms of violence, including sexual violence. They are also more likely to have experienced sustained physical, psychological or emotional abuse, or violence which results in injury or death.

Domestic violence is not acceptable and should not be tolerated whether the victim is male or female. Every person has the right to live a life free from violence. "

So, whilst female victims are more likely to be exposed to more severe violence (again probably just because of the superior physical strength and possible predisposition to violence of SOME men) they'll probably get more media and police attention. As a gender inequality, that is something which feminism strives to change.

(Original post by edithwashere)
The thing is though, feminism is all about stopping these inequalities for BOTH sides. A lot of anti-feminists on TSR bring up the whole, "you only care about women! you're protecting women who commit crimes against men because you just hate men!" - it gets really annoying trying to explain over and over again that its the system thats wrong, its not an attack on men, but an attack on the system which prioritises men (and in some cases can prioritise women over men, divorce courts etc etc).

Real feminism is about gender equality for all, but because of male privilege, I truly believe that women are more disadvantaged in life, socially, than men are. I'm not talking about things like legality, because as formal law, it obviously isn't allowed to discriminate on terms of gender. But things like how women are only portrayed as sex objects in advertising, how men are encouraged to be masculine (and bullied/undermined when they exhibit feminine attributes or agree with women a la the "white knights" as TSR likes calling them) how women are harassed sexually and it's seen as a regular occurrence, if we try and call out said harassment then we're being hysterical or over sensitive - the list can go on and on and on.

It's not about fighting men, it's about fighting a system that sees men as some kind of "default" for human beings, and entire cultures where women are seen as inferior. The problem I have with MRAs, as you may have seen me mention in other threads, is that in theory, they should be feminist allies - we all hate gender inequality, it's totally sucky, so why are we fighting amongst ourselves? Because instead of getting out there and doing something about the inequalities men face (seemingly the only inequalities MRAs care about) they spend their time trying to undermine and derail feminism, which a) is never going to work, and b) just wastes everybody's time.

Gender inequality ties in to a lot of other inequalities - class, race, sexual orientation - they're all things which affect people's lives through no fault of their own. When I see people who argue that male privilege doesn't exist, I can be pretty sure they'll probably argue against white privilege, and heterosexual privilege.

That's just a few reasons to be a feminist (or, if you don't want to identify as feminist, that's fine. But it's more than enough reason not to be an anti-feminist). I believe with all my heart that being a feminist is the right thing to do, and it makes me really sad to see people calling feminists all names under the sun with no backing whatsoever of fact.

There are lots of places male victims can look for help! And it's certainly a problem, but:

"Whilst both men and women may experience incidents of inter-personal violence, women are considerably more likely to experience repeated and severe forms of violence, including sexual violence. They are also more likely to have experienced sustained physical, psychological or emotional abuse, or violence which results in injury or death.

Domestic violence is not acceptable and should not be tolerated whether the victim is male or female. Every person has the right to live a life free from violence. "

So, whilst female victims are more likely to be exposed to more severe violence (again probably just because of the superior physical strength and possible predisposition to violence of SOME men) they'll probably get more media and police attention. As a gender inequality, that is something which feminism strives to change.

In reality its just the name feminism that entirely puts me off supporting it, similarly MRA contains gender identity (i.e. male) Feminism, feminine, feminine=an attribute/characteristic of some women.

Back to my earlier argument, you still haven't told me what feminism has achieved in the past 10 years...

(Original post by Robbie242)
In reality its just the name feminism that entirely puts me off supporting it, similarly MRA contains gender identity (i.e. male) Feminism, feminine, feminine=an attribute/characteristic of some women.

Back to my earlier argument, you still haven't told me what feminism has achieved in the past 10 years...

I consider that a pretty loaded question. Feminism is huge, there's a lot of it I'm not involved in - but let me draw an example here. Replace feminism in your question with Islam. Now, you could argue that Islam is all about hate mongering and blowing up buildings - and a small, small part of it is, in minority extremist groups. But over a billion people on the planet who follow it probably take all sorts of things from Islam. There are great cultural and historical sites thanks to Islam, there are people who find happiness and peace spiritually because they have found what they believe to be the true faith, there are many many Muslims who are peaceful, tolerant kind people - and who would be very, very offended to be associated with Islamic extremists.

Now, bringing this back to feminism - what has feminism achieved for society in the past 10 years? It's raised awareness of the problem of sexism, it's fought back and educated people who are in a way brainwashed by the system, it's told people that you don't need to follow the status quo. It's targeted things like the rape culture, trying to educate people about how rape is normalised and acceptable to too many in our society. Many feminist groups fundraise for charities - my local group, for example, raises money on a regular basis for SHELTER, the homeless (and not gender specific) persons charity. Feminism fights victim blaming.

Feminism gives women a voice, a platform to speak without being automatically judged because of their gender. And personally? It's not an exaggeration to say that feminism has probably saved my life. As somebody who has experienced rape and domestic violence first hand, my mental health deteriorated immensely after all that, and feminists were the people who helped me piece my life back together. They didn't try and blame me for my rape, like some peers did and the police did. They didn't judge me in any way. They just supported me, comforted me, and gave me hope. Ironically, because of what I'd gone through, I did hate men! But it was feminists who gently explained how this was wrong, and how I should blame the system rather than the men who the system prioritises.

Feminism, to me, is hope. It gives me motivation, to keep going, to keep fighting, instead of just rolling over and doing what society tells me to do.

You can't just generalise and say "feminism hasn't done anything in the past 10 years", because it works in so many different ways - it supports individuals, it is a fight against inequality, it's a battle to change the system. Even if it were the case that feminism had done "nothing" in ten years, would that make it irrelevant? If you think inequality is just groovy then yeah, it's irrelevant. But for as long as gender inequality exists, so will feminism. Don't use the word feminism if you don't like it, but that doesn't make all feminist arguments moot points because of the name of the organisation. Judge us on what we do, not what critics say we do. There's a huge difference between the two.