Memeorandum

February 16, 2018

School Shootings, Gun Control, And Red Flag Laws

There are partisans on both sides of the gun control screaming match that rely on hyperbolic rhetoric to rouse their donors. To pick an example seemingly at random, people like Hillary Clinton will prefer to pander rather than lead.

However, I am feeling a mad surge of optimism today. From the right, let me single out Dan McLaughlin as a hard-headed righty who is surely not a reflexive gun grabber yet seems to be fed up with the current non-debate (OK, that may be me projecting...). A snippet:

There are only easy answers if you are willing to sacrifice rights you don't care about, and that other people do. That's never been a solution Americans could pursue without embarrassment and regret. Unless and until we can find a better, more reliable way to identify potential mass shooters early, we have to acknowledge the nature of the choice before us: Punish many innocent people or remain mostly defenseless against the malicious few.

Nobody wants to make one side of that trade. But nobody wants to face the other side either.

And on the left, Nick Kristof recycles a column where he tried to actually talk a bit of sense into his fellow lefties. Let me extract this:

Frankly, liberal opposition to guns has often been ineffective, and sometimes counterproductive. The 10-year ban on assault weapons accomplished little, partly because definitions were about cosmetic features like bayonet mounts (and partly because even before the ban, such guns were used in only 2 percent of crimes).

Whoa, say what?!? Normally libs are eager to parade their utter lack of knowledge of guns by railing about an assault weapons ban as the first order of business. That does not generally lead to a calm and productive discussion. On the other hand, the Washington Post showssignsthat they are not afraid of the truth on gun control, which is a hopeful sign.

In any case, I would like to see Messrs. McLaughlin and Kristof co-chair a Pundits Panel on gun control. Their chief of staff can be Leah Libresco, author of "I used to think gun control was the answer. My research told me otherwise."

Five states allow guns to be seized before someone can commit violence

In the wake of massacres like Wednesday’s school shooting in Parkland, Fla., a small number of states have passed “red flag laws” that allow the seizure of guns before people can commit acts of violence.

California, Washington, Oregon, Indiana and Connecticut have statutes that can be used to temporarily take guns away from people whom a judge deems a threat to themselves or others. Lawmakers in 18 other states — including Florida — plus the District of Columbia have proposed similar measures. At the federal level, California lawmakers Rep. Salud Carbajal (D) and Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D) introduced legislation last May that would encourage states to adopt the approach.

Mental illness, escalating threats, substance abuse and domestic violence are among the circumstances in which a judge can order weapon restrictions under the laws.

That is a court-supervised process that could be effective while preserving due process rights, unlike the absurd proposals to expand the role of the No Fly list to become a No Buy list as well.

Some of the other Kristof suggestions, such as raising the legal gun purchase age to 21, as with cigarettes and alcohol, don't faze me. I should add that he notes domestic violence restraining orders but does not expand on that to pick up the Red Flag Laws. I have no doubt he would support it, however, and yes, that gives me pause.

In any case, there are some positive steps we could take that might improve our national record on gun violence while respecting (but slightly rebalancing, under court supervision) our right of self defense. And as a matter of pure politics it might behoove the Republicans to put forward some ideas of their own rather than simply knock down the stupider ideas from the other side.

Connecticut is one of the five states with a Red Flag law. Their law, passed in 1999, did not prevent Adam Lanza of Sandy Hook horror, but with a different "See something, say something" social norm, who can say? In any case, here is a Duke study on the impact of that law.

For those who can separate citations from the source, here is an Everytown article with lots of footnotes on Red Flag laws. Distrust but verify!

Rand Paul campaigned against Donald Trump as well.He disagrees with him from time and was beat up on his front lawn forit.
Shall we ban Murkowski and Collins as well.
They don’t walk in lock step so off with their heads.
Seriously ,President has persuaded many including Corker who was Darth Vader here a few weeks ago.
He can persuade Mitt to see the light on his policies.
It is his secret skill.

Jimmyk:
I agree.
I honestly feel people are pre- judging Romney and don’t like him because he wasn’t a pro- Trumper.
At some point I feel we have to let President Trump win him over and I think he will vote the right way in support of the Republican agenda.
Others disagree but I think we have to wait and see.

His domestic policies would lead to recession. His foreign policies would make America and the world less safe. He has neither the temperament nor the judgment to be president. And his personal qualities would mean that America would cease to be a shining city

Congressman Mo Brooks of Alabama is a Tea Party conservative who was originally opposed to Trump claiming he wasn't a real conservative. He made similar statements like what Romney has said during the GOP primaries.

During the Alabama Senate special election Luther Strange ran countless ads of audio/video of Brooks making similar anti-Trump statements. They were very effective causing a lot of Trump supporters to abandon Brooks to vote for Roy Moore or Strange instead.

I never said 'ban', maryrose - don't misrepresent my comment. I said he should remove himself. Big damned difference.

Cruz, Rubio, and Graham were candidates in 2016, unlike Romney. They've also eliminated themselves from any shot at the presidency. Cruz has rehabilitated himself a good bit since then; Rubio and Graham continue to be jokes...

Maryrose, with the long record we have with Romney, the last thing we are doing is pre-judging him.

wiki: "A scorpion asks a frog to carry it across a river. The frog hesitates, afraid of being stung, but the scorpion argues that if it did so, they would both drown. Considering this, the frog agrees, but midway across the river the scorpion does indeed sting the frog, dooming them both. When the frog asks the scorpion why, the scorpion replies that it was in its nature to do so."

TomR:
And that proved an effective strategy by Luther Strange didn’t it?
He ended up losing his Senate seat.
We need smarter people than that.
Remember I was a pro Moore supporter and still believe he was railroaded.
Romney was cheated out of the presidency by lying Obama and his Fake Benghazi video story and persecution of the Tea Party as well as fraud in Florida.In my opinion he deserves this chance in Utah.

Shep is salivating as Catherine Herridge gives her take on the Russians indicted:

Herridge: ...Based on my experience an indictment like this really has two functions. One, it puts out into the Public Square information that every American can read and make their own decision about what happened in the 2016 Election, that there was sufficient evidence to bring criminal charges, and if they ever are indicted, which seems entirely unlikely, at least there would be a platform to bring charges against them, Shep.

Shep Smith: You asked about that, because extradition you know, it's out there.

Cruz, Rubio , Graham, also campaigned against Trump during the election process.
Should we ban them from politics as well?

They campaigned against him in the primaries. That’s what they were supposed to do.

Romney (and the rest of the nevertrunpers) campaigned against him after he became the nominee and the only other choice was Hillary. He (and they) need to begin with groveling apologies before I have the slightest interest in listening to anything they say, let alone supporting them in their own future campaigns.

Extradition? Would election fraud (what is fraud) be covered under the extradition agreement with Russia. If so, the Russians might want to seek extradition of Soros, and many in the Obama State Department.

Our paper reported that Doug Jones raised almost $21M dollars to help with his and McTurtle's campaign to defeat Moore; who relatively raised a paltry $5M. The dems can't continue that 4:1 ratio across the senate races in 2018. Just sayin'...

Google images has changed their access to images. Prior to last week I could go to images lets say of Trump and this Playboy Model and up would pop a pic and if I did not like the size I could select an option that would give me different sizes of the image and I also had the option of selecting similar images, showing Trump and the Playboy Model in a slightly different pose or setting.

Well Google has eliminated those very helpful functions so now I am only shown one picture, and I can no longer access any other sizes of the image nor can I click on similar images. Those functions have been deleted, thus making my ability to post pics whenever I get that wild hair up my rear-end now much more difficult.

Some JOMer's I suspect will cheer this news, tho' I am certain at least a few here will join me in being bummed:(Crow:That blows!Joel:Life sucks!Tom Servo:JOM'll never be the same:(

Romney didn't "disagree" with the candidate---he failed to support the duly nominated candidate of the party. He disparaged him after the Access tape was released. He too would have allowed for HRC to be elected.

That says it all. He's finished with being able to represent the party. Period.

Maybe you can grasp it if you think of it as a mortal sin--because it is, in equivalency.
And you well know it's not because there are Trump Cultists here--but because of the irreparable damage electing HRC would have done to this country.

I bet the Democrats will use Mueller's indictments against Russian propaganda bots as an excuse to say they were duped and that is why they got the FISA warrant on Page so they could in turn spy on Trump.

Anonamom:
Do you have proof that Romney voted for Hillary?
Don’t appreciate being called obtuse.
Did I miss the detente achieved between President Trump and Romney and the dinner they shared together.
I bet Romney spent the entire evening trashing Trump to his face.
Let go of the past people.
It is truly liberating when you do.

Is Vincente FOX.........colluding with Pelosi Galore to interfere with our ELECTIONS.
Has MUELLER decided that ONLY RUSSIANS can DO THAT??? Btw. Vincente "not LOMBARDI" Fox, went to High School here in Wisconsin.

Anonamom:
Sorry only a venial sin in my book, entirely forgivable.
On a par with Cruz’s comment of vote your conscience at the convention.
Basically I want Justice for Romney after collusion with Media, Crowley and Obama.
I also believe has good ideas and experience to do the job.
I stand alone but that is how I roll.

I am having trouble typing while shaking with laughter. Without going into an extended rant, I will say look to the Tea Party and 2010. The ROPe campaigned on the Tea Party platform and laughed about the fools who believed them - afterwards.

Nothing wrong with that,OL. It' called the Bimby in Italy where it's considered the most desired wedding gift and was created abut 50 years ago when Italian women contacted Vorwerk and begged them to make something they could easily make baby food with. It quickly expanded to Michelin chefs' kitchens who loved how easily they could make sauces and purees with and now it does practically everything but bake, broil or deep fry.

WHAT negative articles? I posted ONE comment from Twitter and then left my own opinion!

maryrose, You are one who supports all Republicans no matter what stuff they have pulled. I am not like that. If Romney had been running against Trump in the primaries, like Cruz, it would be one thing. But he said that stuff AFTER Trump secured the nomination!

I had about all I could take of that "he's a phony, he's a fraud" clip during the election, because everyone like Shep Smith played it all the time, it was in dem ads on the radio here, and it drove me absolutely nuts.

THAT is why I want Romney to publicly come out in support of the President and say he was wrong. I bet people would feel better about him if he did. Right now, all I see is someone angling to get to DC so that he can undermine the President.

SBW:
See MM ‘s post above where she specifically uses the word grovel.You may not want Romney but I believe he will be the next senator from Utah.
I could be wrong but Repubs like that leader in Utah forming a circular firing squad isn’t helpful, but that is what Repubs do.. sabotage themselves.

OL, you know better than to call for incarceration of Elba--not escape-proof, as Waterloo shows. What's needed instead is putting them all on St. Helena. Penguins are cute! Global warming won't bother anyone! Plenty of time to write memoirs, mo' and mo' memoirs!

If we look at Romney with the eyes of Robert Mueller, then Maryrose is completely correct---Romney's vocal condemnation and demonstrated lack of support for Trump translated thru Mueller means that just like the Russian dupes marching down Fifth Avenue screaming for Trump to go to Hell is actually a huge call for supporting Trump as President.

Clarice:
You could be right and the voters of Utah will decide.
MM :
I am not going to argue the point.
I can point to countless other threads where Romney is trashed by one and all.
We disagree.
I can leave it at that.

I would bet cash money he wants to do just that, Beasts. He is one who considers himself a TRUE Republican, not like that upstart from Queens.

I have had enough of this. I thought the idea of a political party was to be a team player, not to just suck up donation money and then fight against what the voters want in order to advance your own agenda.

Mitt supports free trade and probably wants to stay in NAFTA. He has zero knowledge of blue collar workers and the true middle class. His money as made in iffy Wall Street deals.

So no, I am not exactly thrilled with him. And yes, I DO want him to grovel a bit - maybe not outright but at least show a little humility.

And that dinner they had at Trump Tower was when Romney thought he was in the running for Secretary of State.

Here's McCarthy on FOX Business 2 minutes ago. Fox Host David reads the big sentence that stood out to him in the just released 37 page indictment of Russians that just came out

FOX Host David: Let me just read it to you: "Some defendants, posing as US persons and without revealing their Russian association, communicated with unwitting individuals associated with the Trump Campaign and with other political activists to seek and to coordinate political activities." "Unwitting individuals", Andy, to me that seems to mean no Americans committed a crime here.

McCarthy: Yeah, I think that's not only what it means David, I think it's also what Deputy AG Rosenstein stressed in his remarks at the Press Conference. It seems to me that this shows that there's no Collusion, not that that's surprising at this point, on at least 2 levels. One is, if they had to talk to American's unwittingly obviously the Americans who were connected to the Trump Campaign did not know that they were dealing with Russians, but more to the point, if there had been a pipeline of corrupt conspiracy between the Trump Campaign and the Kremlin then the Russians would not have had to dupe Campaign Officials, whether they were Trump Officials or anyone else into what they were trying to accomplish. That would have been an open pipeline of assistance.

I know you aren't supposed to assume but after today's indictment of 13 Russian propaganda trolls, if they were formally colluding with the Trump campaign to help him win isn't it safe to assume that information would have been leaked to the leftwing media a long time ago?

Assuming the absence of damaging leaks means there is still no evidence of collusion between Trump and the Russian government, how long will Mueller be allowed to keep the investigation going?

Russia started their anti-US campaign in 2014, long before I announced that I would run for President. The results of the election were not impacted. The Trump campaign did nothing wrong - no collusion!

Host David: Is it vital for Americans to find out which Americans associated with the Trump Campaign were the unwitting participants of this?

McCarthy: Well, we'll have to see where this goes. My own view of it, FWIW, is I really don't understand what they are doing here. It seems to me that they have filed what ostensively is a Political Document, because everybody knows that there is not a chance that we are going to get any of the Russians into an American Courtroom for a Trial. What's implicated here is a lot of activity that Americans engage in, and a lot of activity that our Government and Representatives of our Government engage in in the world in order to try to influence events in other countries, and it just seems to me that if, as the Justice Department has said, the Russians are engaged in Information Warfare, it doesn't seem to me that the Criminal Justice System is the way that you respond when a country is engaging in Warfare against you. That seems like a Political and a Diplomatic issue, and by making it into a Criminal issue we at least provoke the possibility that other countries are going to act in kind against us.

As Jimmyk said before what did the Russians do differently than what Obama did to Netanyahu in Israel election. Why is his meddling and using US taxpayer $$ to oppose Netanyahu less offensive than what the Russians did.?

Maryrose did you watch the Romney video and Utah values . It was a dig at Trumpo on immigration and he is part of the chambers of commerce who want cheap illegal immigrants even though he played loose with the legal and illegal immigration in the video.

Also he was main behind the scenesof Evan McMullin who was with McCain in Syria a bunch of vipers if you ask me.