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Topic: Any other church father clearly claiming that God's enengies is hell to sinners? (Read 3599 times)

St. Isaac the Syrian:''I also maintain that those who are punished in Gehenna are scourged by the scourge of love. Nay, what is so bitter and vehement as the torment of love? I mean that those who have become conscious that they have sinned against love suffer greater torment from this than from any fear of punishment. For the sorrow caused in the heart by sin against love is more poignant than any torment. It would be improper for a man to think that sinners in Gehenna are deprived of the love of God. Love is the offspring of knowledge of the truth which, as is commonly confessed, is given to all. The power of Love works in two ways: it torments sinners, even as happens here when a friend suffers from a friend; but it becomes a source of joy for those who have observed its duties. Thus I say that this is the torment of Gehenna: bitter regret. But love inebriates the souls of the sons of Heaven by its delectability.''

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St Gregory the Theologian:God Himself is Paradise and punishment for man, since each tastes God's energies according to the condition of his soul.

Except St Isaac and St Gregory, is there any other church father directly and clearly claiming that God and God's love is the paradise and hell for the men in his/her written works? Can anybody quote some of them?

Hmm, I didn't know God offered His energies to sinners. This is a bit strange. I knew His presence was known by those in Hell, but not in a direct way, through His Energies. I thought hell was separation from God, even though those in hell perceived His presence (more like an "absent presence"). I'd like to hear more also. St. Gregory is the one who says this. St. Isaac seems to talk about love, not Energies. Or maybe it's the way I am phrasing things, the way I am using the terminology in my own personal way.

Ah yes, but many mystics of the Church also gave the explanation that Hell was the Love of God burning on rejecting hearts, manifest as "wrath."

If you can provide more than two saints on this point I will be impressed.

The two most clear ones are St. Isaac of Nineveh and St. Gregory of Nyssa, but they may also be disregarded for their belief in apokatastasis. St. Isaac (Homily 48) for instance says:

Quote from: Kalomiros' 'The River of Fire'

Those who are suffering in hell, are suffering in being scourged by love.... It is totally false to think that the sinners in hell are deprived of God's love. Love is a child of the knowledge of truth, and is unquestionably given commonly to all. But love's power acts in two ways: it torments sinners, while at the same time it delights those who have lived in accord with it.

St. Gregory of Nyssa (On the Soul and Resurrection):

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But whenever the time come that God shall have brought our nature back to the primal state of man, it will be useless to talk of such things then, and to imagine that objections based upon such things can prove God’s power to be impeded in arriving at His end. His end is one, and one only; it is this: when the complete whole of our race shall have been perfected from the first man to the last,—some having at once in this life been cleansed from evil, others having afterwards in the necessary periods been healed by the Fire, others having in their life here been unconscious equally of good and of evil,—to offer to every one of us participation in the blessings which are in Him, which, the Scripture tells us, “eye hath not seen, nor ear heard,” nor thought ever reached. But this is nothing else, as I at least understand it, but to be in God Himself; for the Good which is above hearing and eye and heart must be that Good which transcends the universe. But the difference between the virtuous and the vicious life led at the present time will be illustrated in this way; viz. in the quicker or more tardy participation of each in that promised blessedness. According to the amount of the ingrained wickedness of each will be computed the duration of his cure. This cure consists in the cleansing of his soul, and that cannot be achieved without an excruciating condition, as has been expounded in our previous discussion.

The other Cappadocian fathers (St. Basil and St. Gregory Nazienzen respectively) did not say that Love is the one that's revealed as wrathful, but they do say that the same Divine Fire that illuminates the saints torments the sinners:

Quote from: Kalomiros' 'The River of Fire'

"I believe that the fire prepared for the punishment of the devil and his angels is divided by the voice of the Lord. Thus, since there are two capacities in fire, one of burning and the other of illuminating, the fierce and scourging property of the fire may await those who deserve to burn, while illuminating and radiant warmth may be reserved for the enjoyment of those who are rejoicing." (Homily on Psalms, 28.6)

Quote from: Kalomiros' 'The River of Fire'

"O Trinity, Whom I have been granted to worship and proclaim, Who will some day be known to all, to some through illumination, to others through punishment!" (Or. 23.13, On peace 3, PG 35, 1165B)

As you can see, I have to admit that I haven't read most of these quotes primarily, and while I don't necessarily find "The River of Fire" a fair assessment of what he's trying to teach, I think these quotes however speak volumes of the mystery of God's nature.

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"Christian America is finally waking up to what fraternities and biker gangs have known for years: hazing works!"

This is from theologian Fr. Dumitru Staniloae, one of the most respected theologians of the 20th century. I translated it from Romanian:

He is describing the concept of St. Maximus the Confessor: The souls that are in hell must move their power, because they don't have within themselves infinity (from God, that can satisfy all wishes); yet, in another way, they are not within an infinity in which their powers can move in a stable manner, because they are outside of God and they do not tend towards Him, either, but move within a tormenting restlessness, not stabilizing themselves in the God's infinity. The soul in hell must move, but since it's not moving towards its desired target in which its movement would find accomplishment and stabilize, its movement, from which it cannot escape, is a torment because it is useless, without a target. More so, the soul moves form one thing to another without ceasing to exist.

St. John of Damascus says that the torments are caused by the unsatisfied passions. I can't offer a quote, but just read it in a Romanian article.

I'd be careful about introducing the concept of Energies. Not saying it's not so, but we may not understand things the right way.

This is from theologian Fr. Dumitru Staniloae, one of the most respected theologians of the 20th century. I translated it from Romanian:

He is describing the concept of St. Maximus the Confessor: The souls that are in hell must move their power, because they don't have within themselves infinity (from God, that can satisfy all wishes); yet, in another way, they are not within an infinity in which their powers can move in a stable manner, because they are outside of God and they do not tend towards him, either, but move within a tormenting restlessness, not stabilizing themselves in the God's infinity. The soul in hell must move, but since it's not moving towards its desired target in which its movement would find accomplishment and stabilize, its movement, from which it cannot escape, is a torment because it is useless, without a target. More so, the soul moves form one thing to another without ceasing to exist.

St. John of Damascus says that the torments are caused by the unsatisfied passions. I can't offer a quote, but just read it in a Romanian article.

I'd be careful about introducing the concept of Energies. Not saying it's not so, but we may not understand things the right way.

Frankly from what you have posted by Fr. Dumitru Staniloae, his work doesn't seem that great. In fact, in the excerpt you posted by him on the Trinity, it came close to heresy and I don't use that word lightly.

This is from theologian Fr. Dumitru Staniloae, one of the most respected theologians of the 20th century. I translated it from Romanian:

He is describing the concept of St. Maximus the Confessor: The souls that are in hell must move their power, because they don't have within themselves infinity (from God, that can satisfy all wishes); yet, in another way, they are not within an infinity in which their powers can move in a stable manner, because they are outside of God and they do not tend towards him, either, but move within a tormenting restlessness, not stabilizing themselves in the God's infinity. The soul in hell must move, but since it's not moving towards its desired target in which its movement would find accomplishment and stabilize, its movement, from which it cannot escape, is a torment because it is useless, without a target. More so, the soul moves form one thing to another without ceasing to exist.

St. John of Damascus says that the torments are caused by the unsatisfied passions. I can't offer a quote, but just read it in a Romanian article.

I'd be careful about introducing the concept of Energies. Not saying it's not so, but we may not understand things the right way.

Frankly from what you have posted by Fr. Dumitru Staniloae, his work doesn't seem that great. In fact, in the excerpt you posted by him on the Trinity, it came close to heresy and I don't use that word lightly.

I very much doubt it because Fr. Staniloae is so big and never got any criticism. And, I read it also before I posted it. Which one was it? And what are you disagreeing with?

That's the thing. They are not sustained. They lost communion with God. They receive Him in the manner that they are open to Him, aka zero. They know He is present and this is what torments them, but they can't really experience Him. That would mean that they are either in Heaven, or that God is purposefully torturing them with His goodness.

I'd be careful about introducing the concept of Energies. Not saying it's not so, but we may not understand things the right way.

I would too. It is a manner of understanding God specific to a time, place, and rarefied discussion. The background to understand the development of the problem which introduced energies is lacking in nearly everyone who use the term and from what I have read in most who were developing this line of thought to begin with.

When theology meets philosophy expect nothing but bad most of the time. The recent "philosophical" threads around here attest to that.

That's the thing. They are not sustained. They lost communion with God. They receive Him in the manner that they are open to Him, aka zero. They know He is present and this is what torments them, but they can't really experience Him. That would mean that they are either in Heaven, or that God is purposefully torturing them with His goodness.

God creates and sustains all. Or is there creation which is independent of God?

I'd be careful about introducing the concept of Energies. Not saying it's not so, but we may not understand things the right way.

I would too. It is a manner of understanding God specific to a time, place, and rarefied discussion. The background to understand the development of the problem which introduced energies is lacking in nearly everyone who use the term and from what I have read in most who were developing this line of thought to begin with.

When theology meets philosophy expect nothing but bad most of the time. The recent "philosophical" threads around here attest to that.

I agree with you. Personally, I will keep philosophy to a minimum in the future. I find that it only aids me and my own understanding. I wish people would apply their own philosophy and rely upon God more than my personal explanations (of which I am convinced).

That's the thing. They are not sustained. They lost communion with God. They receive Him in the manner that they are open to Him, aka zero. They know He is present and this is what torments them, but they can't really experience Him. That would mean that they are either in Heaven, or that God is purposefully torturing them with His goodness.

God creates and sustains all. Or is there creation which is independent of God?

God tortures.

God does not sustain people who refuse Him; that would mean He is crazy. At least to me and what I've gathered so far. God tortures? I sure hope not.

That's the thing. They are not sustained. They lost communion with God. They receive Him in the manner that they are open to Him, aka zero. They know He is present and this is what torments them, but they can't really experience Him. That would mean that they are either in Heaven, or that God is purposefully torturing them with His goodness.

God creates and sustains all. Or is there creation which is independent of God?

God tortures.

God does not sustain people who refuse Him; that would mean He is crazy. At least to me and what I've gathered so far. God tortures? I sure hope not.

This is from theologian Fr. Dumitru Staniloae, one of the most respected theologians of the 20th century. I translated it from Romanian:

He is describing the concept of St. Maximus the Confessor: The souls that are in hell must move their power, because they don't have within themselves infinity (from God, that can satisfy all wishes); yet, in another way, they are not within an infinity in which their powers can move in a stable manner, because they are outside of God and they do not tend towards him, either, but move within a tormenting restlessness, not stabilizing themselves in the God's infinity. The soul in hell must move, but since it's not moving towards its desired target in which its movement would find accomplishment and stabilize, its movement, from which it cannot escape, is a torment because it is useless, without a target. More so, the soul moves form one thing to another without ceasing to exist.

St. John of Damascus says that the torments are caused by the unsatisfied passions. I can't offer a quote, but just read it in a Romanian article.

I'd be careful about introducing the concept of Energies. Not saying it's not so, but we may not understand things the right way.

Frankly from what you have posted by Fr. Dumitru Staniloae, his work doesn't seem that great. In fact, in the excerpt you posted by him on the Trinity, it came close to heresy and I don't use that word lightly.

I very much doubt it because Fr. Staniloae is so big and never got any criticism. And, I read it also before I posted it. Which one was it? And what are you disagreeing with?

Gotta run for a long while, I'll search to see if I can find the post I found a little problematic and bump in a minute.

"And some things, indeed, participate in the Good entirely, whilst others are deprived of It, in a more or less degree, but others possess a more obscure participation in the Good; and to the rest, the Good is present as a most distant echo. For if the Good were not present according to the capacity of each, the most Divine and honoured would occupy the rank of the lowest. And how were it possible that all should participate in the Good uniformly, when not all are in the same way adapted to its whole participation?

"Now, this is the exceeding greatness of the power of the Good, that It empowers, both things deprived, and the deprivation of Itself, with a view to the entire participation of itself. And, if one must make bold to speak the truth, even the things fighting against It, both are, and are able to fight, by Its power. Yea rather, in order that I may speak summarily, all things which are, in so far as they are, both are good, and from the Good; but, in so far as they are deprived of the Good, are neither good, nor do they exist." - St. Dionysius

Yes, orthonorm, I'm aware of your objections to continuing neo-Platonic influence in Christian theology. But, like it or not, it's pretty much indelibly left its mark. I for one, coming from a (loosely speaking) pagan philosophical background, really dig Platonism and think it integrates well with the gospel, with certain adjustments of course.

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"A riddle or the cricket's cryIs to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake

"And some things, indeed, participate in the Good entirely, whilst others are deprived of It, in a more or less degree, but others possess a more obscure participation in the Good; and to the rest, the Good is present as a most distant echo. For if the Good were not present according to the capacity of each, the most Divine and honoured would occupy the rank of the lowest. And how were it possible that all should participate in the Good uniformly, when not all are in the same way adapted to its whole participation?

"Now, this is the exceeding greatness of the power of the Good, that It empowers, both things deprived, and the deprivation of Itself, with a view to the entire participation of itself. And, if one must make bold to speak the truth, even the things fighting against It, both are, and are able to fight, by Its power. Yea rather, in order that I may speak summarily, all things which are, in so far as they are, both are good, and from the Good; but, in so far as they are deprived of the Good, are neither good, nor do they exist." - St. Dionysius

Yes, orthonorm, I'm aware of your objections to continuing neo-Platonic influence in Christian theology. But, like it or not, it's pretty much indelibly left its mark. I for one, coming from a (loosely speaking) pagan philosophical background, really dig Platonism and think it integrates well with the gospel, with certain adjustments of course.

This is from theologian Fr. Dumitru Staniloae, one of the most respected theologians of the 20th century. I translated it from Romanian:

He is describing the concept of St. Maximus the Confessor: The souls that are in hell must move their power, because they don't have within themselves infinity (from God, that can satisfy all wishes); yet, in another way, they are not within an infinity in which their powers can move in a stable manner, because they are outside of God and they do not tend towards him, either, but move within a tormenting restlessness, not stabilizing themselves in the God's infinity. The soul in hell must move, but since it's not moving towards its desired target in which its movement would find accomplishment and stabilize, its movement, from which it cannot escape, is a torment because it is useless, without a target. More so, the soul moves form one thing to another without ceasing to exist.

St. John of Damascus says that the torments are caused by the unsatisfied passions. I can't offer a quote, but just read it in a Romanian article.

I'd be careful about introducing the concept of Energies. Not saying it's not so, but we may not understand things the right way.

Frankly from what you have posted by Fr. Dumitru Staniloae, his work doesn't seem that great. In fact, in the excerpt you posted by him on the Trinity, it came close to heresy and I don't use that word lightly.

I very much doubt it because Fr. Staniloae is so big and never got any criticism. And, I read it also before I posted it. Which one was it? And what are you disagreeing with?

Gotta run for a long while, I'll search to see if I can find the post I found a little problematic and bump in a minute.

Here is the thread in which the quote occurred that especially jumped off the screen at me. If you want, we can take it up in that thread. (FWIW, I haven't read the entire work, I am just saying that more than a few times some your quotes from the Father seem a little problematic, this seemed the worst of them all.)

Through grace the Spirit eliminates the distance between our 'I' and His 'I', creating between us and the Father through grace, the same relationship He has by nature with the Father and the Son.

Wow! ... this is just so aweome!

IoanC,

This is the problematic quote. Sorry, I thought you provided. I guess Theophan_C found it within a link you provided or it is in the split thread.

Here is the quote with the proper attribution:

Quote

“Through grace the Spirit eliminates the distance between our “I” and His “I,” creating between us and the Father, through grace, the same relation He has by nature with the Father and the Son” (Staniloae, 1994, The experience of God: Revelation and knowledge of the Triune God, p. 248).

I do know that IoanC isn't exaggerating when he speaks of Fr. Dumitru being respected. Fwiw, I've read that book and didn't remember anything particularly troubling, though that quote is something that could/should be discussed further...

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"Christian America is finally waking up to what fraternities and biker gangs have known for years: hazing works!"

So, my understanding is that God offers His energies to those in Hell out of the same love He has for those who love Him. That's the whole beauty of it and greatness of God. He offers the Energies as a gift, not as a torment. And by the way, His Energies are not tormenting; they are the same Energies He offers to those is Heaven and causes them to rejoice. That's the thing -- if only those in hell would wish to accept, but they don't because they hate God's Energies. They call light darkness and darkness light. So, there is this sort of separation because of it. God will not force Himself though He does offer Himself. Again, the Energies are not tormenting in nature since they cause the righteous to rejoice. The way they are perceived is tormenting to sinners.

That's the thing. They are not sustained. They lost communion with God. They receive Him in the manner that they are open to Him, aka zero. They know He is present and this is what torments them, but they can't really experience Him. That would mean that they are either in Heaven, or that God is purposefully torturing them with His goodness.

God creates and sustains all. Or is there creation which is independent of God?

God tortures.

God does not sustain people who refuse Him; that would mean He is crazy. At least to me and what I've gathered so far. God tortures? I sure hope not.

Is the eternal life so fundamentally different than this life, in which God certainly does sustain sinners? And if He only sustains them in this life for the purpose of repentance, why is His sustainance still necessary for the righteous in eternity? To say that, somehow, God ceases to sustain His creation veers too closely to annihilationsim for me.

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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Rev 14:10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Rev 14:10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Not surehow this quote addresses specifically the topic at hand. Maybe with some commentary?

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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

St Gregory the Theologian:God Himself is Paradise and punishment for man, since each tastes God's energies according to the condition of his soul.

What is the source of this quotation? Thanks.

A google search didn't bring up a source, just lots of people quoting it, or quoting parts of it. I think the quote in the OP is just a summation of something that was said, or a paraphrase even. A number of people who quote the text cite this page as a source... perhaps the author of the article could be contacted?

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"Christian America is finally waking up to what fraternities and biker gangs have known for years: hazing works!"

Rev 14:10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Not surehow this quote addresses specifically the topic at hand. Maybe with some commentary?

My point was that it says that the torment will happen "in the presence of the Lamb", but the only Orthodox commentary I can find (that of St Andrew) doesn't address what it means for it to happen "in the presence of the Lamb", but while saying "in the presence of" does not necessarily say that the Lord's presence is what causes the torment.

But I did find this in the same commentary on Rev 19:11-12, which may be of interest here.

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And the white horse is the future joy of the saints, upon which he is carried to judge the nations impartially, I think by his watchful, providential power throwing out flames of fire, which to the righteous illuminate but do not burn, but to the sinners burn and do not illumine.

Rev 14:10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Not surehow this quote addresses specifically the topic at hand. Maybe with some commentary?

My point was that it says that the torment will happen "in the presence of the Lamb", but the only Orthodox commentary I can find (that of St Andrew) doesn't address what it means for it to happen "in the presence of the Lamb", but while saying "in the presence of" does not necessarily say that the Lord's presence is what causes the torment.

But I did find this in the same commentary on Rev 19:11-12, which may be of interest here.

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And the white horse is the future joy of the saints, upon which he is carried to judge the nations impartially, I think by his watchful, providential power throwing out flames of fire, which to the righteous illuminate but do not burn, but to the sinners burn and do not illumine.

Rev 14:10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Not surehow this quote addresses specifically the topic at hand. Maybe with some commentary?

My point was that it says that the torment will happen "in the presence of the Lamb", but the only Orthodox commentary I can find (that of St Andrew) doesn't address what it means for it to happen "in the presence of the Lamb", but while saying "in the presence of" does not necessarily say that the Lord's presence is what causes the torment.

But I did find this in the same commentary on Rev 19:11-12, which may be of interest here.

Quote

And the white horse is the future joy of the saints, upon which he is carried to judge the nations impartially, I think by his watchful, providential power throwing out flames of fire, which to the righteous illuminate but do not burn, but to the sinners burn and do not illumine.

You mean most Orthodox commentaries shows that the Lord's presence is the cause of the torments in Genhanna,except St.Andrew?

All I said was that that particular commentary didn't say anything one way or the other in reference to those words in that particular verse. But I did find a passage in the same commentary relating to a different verse that was relevant to the discussion.

Except St Isaac and St Gregory, is there any other church father directly and clearly claiming that God and God's love is the paradise and hell for the men in his/her written works? Can anybody quote some of them?

I suspect you will aren't going to find many Church Fathers who say that it is the love of God that causes the sufferings of the damned. As you note, St Isaac says this explicitly; but as far as I can determine, most Church Fathers speak of hell either as the absence of God or as an actual physical fire. A couple of years ago I tried to do a review of patristic texts, and I posted some of my results on the Monachos site. Also see the immediate response of Hieromonk Irenei Steenberg in the same thread.

I like St Isaac's description of hell and invoke it frequently, but I'm reluctant to say that it expresses THE position of the Fathers.

Except St Isaac and St Gregory, is there any other church father directly and clearly claiming that God and God's love is the paradise and hell for the men in his/her written works? Can anybody quote some of them?

I suspect you will aren't going to find many Church Fathers who say that it is the love of God that causes the sufferings of the damned. As you note, St Isaac says this explicitly; but as far as I can determine, most Church Fathers speak of hell either as the absence of God or as an actual physical fire. A couple of years ago I tried to do a review of patristic texts, and I posted some of my results on the Monachos site. Also see the immediate response of Hieromonk Irenei Steenberg in the same thread.

I like St Isaac's description of hell and invoke it frequently, but I'm reluctant to say that it expresses THE position of the Fathers.

That mean hell is away from GOd's presence and absence of His presence according to the orginal text of 2 thess 1:9?

And expect St Isaac ,most church father think that hell is absence of God and His love , and God will use true fire to torture His enemies?