New report accuses Pakistan’s ISI of backing Afghan insurgents

According to a new report published by the London School of Economics, Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) agency not only funds and trains Taliban fighters in Afghanistan but is officially represented on the movement’s leadership council, giving it significant influence over operations.

The ISI has long been accused of backing the Taliban – an accusation Pakistan denies, saying this would make no sense when it is already fighting a bloody campaign against Islamist militants at home. But the report is worth reading for its wealth of detail on the perceptions held by Taliban commanders interviewed in the field. You can see the Reuters story on the report here and the full document (pdf) here.

The report, based on interviews with Taliban commanders, former senior Taliban ministers and Western and Afghan security officials, says research strongly suggested support for the Taliban was the “official policy” of the ISI. “Pakistan appears to be playing a double-game of astonishing magnitude,” it says. Interviews with Taliban commanders “suggest that Pakistan continues to give extensive support to the insurgency in terms of funding, munitions and supplies.”

“These accounts were corroborated by former Taliban ministers, a Western analyst and a senior U.N. official based in Kabul, who said the Taliban largely depend on funding from the ISI and groups in Gulf countries,” the report, which was dismissed by Pakistani officials as spurious and unfounded, says.

Almost all of the Taliban commanders interviewed in the report believed the ISI was represented on the Quetta Shura, the Taliban’s supreme leadership council which Washington says is based in Pakistan. “Interviews strongly suggest that the ISI has representatives on the (Quetta) Shura, either as participants or observers, and the agency is thus involved at the highest level of the movement.”

“Pakistan’s apparent involvement in a double-game of this scale could have major geopolitical implications and could even provoke US counter-measures. However, the powerful role of the ISI, and parts of the Pakistani military, suggests that progress against the Afghan insurgency, or towards political engagement, requires their support. The only sure way to secure such cooperation is to address the fundamental causes of Pakistan’s insecurity, especially its latent and enduring conflict with India,” it says.

As discussed many times on this blog, most recently here, Pakistan is unlikely to act decisively against the Afghan Taliban without reassurances of a scaling back of India’s presence in Afghanistan. It may have some ability to convince Afghan Taliban leaders to join peace talks by leaning on those who are based in Pakistan, or whose families live there, as and when it judges the timing is right.

But this influence does not extend to full control over the Taliban – as the book by Abdul Salam Zaeef, the Taliban’s last ambassador to Islamabad, testifies, there is little love lost between the movement and Pakistan. The report itself quoted a political analyst in Kandahar as saying that, ‘The Taliban is obliged to accept Pakistan’s demands – it needs their support, but is not their puppet.”

I caught up with the report’s author, Matt Waldman, in London, for a brief chat to find out what other views he had picked up from his interviews with Taliban commanders in the field.

He said some, but not all, the commanders he spoke to said the ISI support was given so as to undermine Indian influence in Afghanistan. But on the whole they appeared to be relatively unaware of the big geopolitical issues that are believed to drive Pakistan’s alleged support for the Taliban. There had been no mention, for example, of some of the accusations that Pakistan levels against India, of using its presence in Afghanistan to fund separatists in the Pakistani province of Baluchistan, or of working through Afghan intelligence to support the Pakistani Taliban – allegations New Delhi denies.

Rather, the commanders were focused on driving out foreign forces from Afghanistan, restoring sharia law and obtaining justice and security. They did not talk about the Taliban regaining power, or about fighting for them to have the right to run particular ministries; nor indeed about the position they might seek for their leader Mullah Muhammad Omar. “They didn’t talk about the Taliban regaining the reins of government,” he said.

Nor was there any sign of al Qaeda being a significant influence. None expressed any affection for al Qaeda and some acknowledged its role in the Taliban’s downfall in 2001. The United States said it decided to overthrow the Taliban in 2001 after their government had refused to hand over to Washington Osama bin Laden and other al Qaeda leaders blamed for the Sept. 11 attacks.

Waldman said those he spoke to wanted peace, but not at any cost. While he detected some reluctance to see an immediate withdrawal of all foreign forces — which could precipitate a civil war — the massive presence of troops was a major problem. Some analysts say any withdrawal of foreign troops could lead to renewed fighting between non-Pashtuns once grouped in the former Northern Alliance and the Pashtun-dominated Taliban. Waldman however said that, “I never found any sort of hostility towards other ethnic groups.”

The commanders he spoke to wanted clean and honest government and the separation of men and women, including at work. They were happy to see girls’ education, but only up to a certain age. They were also well aware of factors running in their favour, including the unpopularity of the government and divisions in the international community about the Afghan war. “Although they are tired and war-weary, they feel a level of confidence in the eventual outcome,” he said.

He also noted that many of the factors driving the insurgency were domestic – including a sense that the government in Kabul was abusing its power through “predatory and exclusionary policies” and a perception of aggression by foreign forces against the people of Afghanistan. This suggested that taking the ISI out of the equation would not be enough to end the insurgency – although the report also said that any peace talks with the Afghan government would not succeed without ISI support. “If you took the ISI out, it might make it possible to end the insurgency. But it does not end the insurgency.”

ISI is a sinister organization that has changed from being an intelligence agency to a cartel like system that runs its own affairs. Anyone who does not side with it in Pakistan will find themselves in the line of fire. Mullah Baradar can vouch for that.

I see nothing new in this. We knew all along that Taliban is a wing of the Pakistani military establishment with ISI providing all the cover and support. ISI controlled Afghanistan through the Taliban. When the US attacked Afghanistan, the Taliban took the brunt of the attacks and ISI stayed behind, helped the Taliban find safe havens inside Pakistan and has been advising them and other terror groups how to wait out the Americans.

ISI’s main mission is to devise plans to thwart India everywhere. And it has become an obsession within its ranks. American presence in the neighborhood has slowed down its pace a little.

Through these discoveries (of confirmed links between the ISI and the terror groups), I hope the Americans and their allies do something about it. They might have to confront the ISI instead of the Taliban and bring them into submission. Pakistan has too many non-state actors – LeT, Taliban, JuD, ISI, Pak Military etc. They resemble their cricket team sometimes – unite against India or fight for supremacy amongst themselves. To save the world and bring peace to Afghanistan, it would be a good thing to consider taking on these organizations by turning them against each other.
The good old colonial technique of divide and rule is the only way to keep these elements from united and causing destruction to the region and the world in general.

Pakistan is rapidly enriching uranium at the same time, in order to prepare for the next blackmail – selling the material and technology if cornered. I hope the Americans act on this as quickly as possible. Iran is getting there very quickly, due to help from you know who.

^^^ lol. Seriously WHO DIDN’T SEE THIS COMING?? We are playing in a snake pit aka Pakistan. We call them friends when IT IS OBVIOUS even through out obscure ‘mainstream media’ who out real enemy is. Pakistan needs a time out

Though I just heard from Maj. Gen Athar Abbas DG ISPR spokesman of Pakistan Army on CNN terming the report as false and total rubbish based on fabricated lies. Apparently it is not based on any credible source.

Pakistan is fighting a war and lost many soldiers and officers, ISI has taken direct hits. It is the first line of defense for Pakistan, as for:

“Pakistan’s apparent involvement in a double-game of this scale could have major geopolitical implications and could even provoke US counter-measures. ”

If Pakistan is playing any game, certainly the geopolitical implications would have been taken into account by the strategic planners. We have had super powers playing games in our neighbourhood for last three decades, when you are forced to deal with fire you have to learn to play with fire. If the super powers are annoyed with Pakistan playing double game, they must get the hell out of our turf and quit playing games themselves too. First the Soviets invade Afghanistan and west uses ISI to back anti-soviet forces. Then the US and NATO enter Afghanistan and enlist ISI support to fight Taliban. What is ISI supposed to do? it is an intelligence agnecy which works for Pakistan’s interests, and most of the times its mentor has been the CIA.

Can someone tell me if CIA was not involved in Iran contra affair? funding Nicaraguan insurgents, overthrowing unfriendly regimes in South America, recruiting European political leaders etc. ?

Didn’t Mossad forge passports of western nations, breached the laws of UAE and commit murder in Dubai of an Hamas official? How did Israel acquire nuclear capability?
Intelligence agencies are meant to be this way, and in the world of spying sometimes you have to do things which are not supposed to be done.

Having stated all above, and knowing the profile of DG ISI Lt. Gen Ahmed Shuja Pasha still I would still say the report is RUBBISH.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/01/world/ asia/01pstan.html
In August, General Pasha accompanied General Kayani to a secret, highly unusual meeting between top Pakistani military leaders and American commanders, including the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Adm. Mike Mullen, on the aircraft carrier Abraham Lincoln.”
“It will give a good signal to the Americans,” said a retired general, Talat Masood. “He is rated a really good officer by international standards.”

—Pakistan does not need to deny or present any explanation. There is a war in Afghanistan, everyone is working for their own interest and there is nothing wrong with it.

ENTRAPMENT is the illegal and unsavory practice of luring someone into committing a crime, and then prosecuting him for it. Sometimes the entrapped person, organization, or state has no intention or knowledge of the committed crime.
“Frame-ups” in drug “conspiracies” are routine in the United States: there are literally thousands of drug-related conspiracy cases in the United States in which innocent people are implicated and punished.
At the highest level, the classic example of entrapment, before Operation 9/11 to frame Osama bin Laden and company, was operation “C-Chase” in 1988, the purpose of which was to frame the Bank of Credit and Commerce International (BCCI) headed by Agha Hasan Abedi of Pakistan and force its closure. Operation 9/11 is more complex because during this operation, Pakistan’s military intelligence agency (ISI) was entrapped while playing a role in facilitating 9/11.

-Not sure of the authenticity of the book, but if there is any credibility, it is becoming evident that ISI is being framed and I do not know how Pakistan Military and Intelligence services will deal with the fallout and whether successfully navigate out of the mess. This malicious report is just one in a series of attempts to frame Pakistan as a rogue nation.

For starters, Bank of Commerce and Credit, International (B.C.C.I.) was accused of having become a funnel for a variety of illegal operations, including laundering drug money, supporting the Iran-Contra operation and backing Afghan Mujahedeen fighters.

@ KPsingh01
Is ISI is sinister than CIA or Mossad or KGB. If so then this should be recorded in the Guiness Book? By the way the Mossad man who was involved in issuing false German passport has been arrested in Poland. All the State Intelligence Units in the world are legalised criminal outfits and therefore I would not take the “London School of Economics” very seriously. Perhaps the London School of Economics revise their text books on Economics for their students instead of indulging in the intelligence. Your concerns about the nuclear material is uncalled for! Let us also be realistic, the people working for CIA, Mossad, ISI and other intelligence units are the integral part of the communities in their respective countries. How many Amrerican or Indian families you know of whose members were not associated with the military setups. Let us not split hairs. Pakistan military, ISI and for that matter so called Talibans are not separable from the main stream and believe me this pattern is no different than in the USA or India. Let us try to upgrade our commentry culture and not be influenced by green journalists who simply write SINISTER stories. A good day.
Rex Minor

There’s reason it only got 3 stars on one of the most generous book markets.

The ISI was not entrapped. It’s hogwash that the US pushed the ISI to work with the Taliban. During the Soviet era, the US pushed ISI to work with the Mujahideen not the Taliban. How quickly we forget the distinction.

The Taliban was a different, ISI led entity, that was not supported by the US. And prior to 9/11 if I recall correctly, the US had been warning Pakistan not to cooperate with the Taliban because of their coddling of AQ. That tension was already high after the USS Cole bombing.

So don’t start with your revisionist crap trying to label this as entrapment. Pakistan made its choices. It’ll pay for them in short order.

As for playing geopolitical games. I think Pakistanis forget about the hand that feeds them. It’s highly unlikely the Americans are going to forgive or forget if they lose this war because of Pakistan.

Even nuclear blackmail won’t work this time. If it ever gets to that stage, Pakistan will be put in the same block at North Korea. Pakistani nationals will be unwelcome the world over, even in the Gulf. And the Americans will simply strike an even deeper relationship with India. Forget selling the Indians F-16s or F-18s, the yanks might just offer them the Joint Strike Fighter.

As for the Chinese coming to the rescue, I doubt it. They don’t have the resources to bail out Pakistan. And at the end of the day, if they have to pick one pariah state to babysit, it’ll be North Korea, not Pakistan. And the last thing they want is an India-US axis forming in their backyard. They’ll do everything to apply pressure on Pakistan to back off, so that India and the US don’t get too cozy.

I really think Pakistanis haven’t thought things through beyond the next 2-3 years. They might get the West out of Afghanistan. The cost will be international isolation, increased instability at home, and even more international support for India (including a shift from Pakistan’s allies like the US and China). Pakistanis better hope that their generals are some of the best chess players in the world. They are risking the entire nation in this gamble to get the West out of Afghanistan.

Your objectivity and professional integrity is cast in doubt by the following excerpt (at the end of my post)

Firstly, your language all but justifies Pakistan’s perfidious role with the Taliban. Secondly, there is no evidence to suggest that Pakistan’s demands on Afghanistan are limited to “reassurances” on India “scaling back” in Afghanistan.

If anything, Pakistan is seeking a total elimination of India’s role in Afghanistan, which is overwhelmingly development oriented and helps needy Afghans with educational, health care and basic infrastructure facilities.

Secondly, you summarily judge what Pakistan’s influence with the Taliban is limited to, without any evidence to back up your determination that Pakistan only has “some ability” to convince Taliban leaders.

You are a step away from being an ISI/Pakistan apologist.

—-
The Quote:
>>>
As discussed many times on this blog, most recently here, Pakistan is unlikely to act decisively against the Afghan Taliban without reassurances of a scaling back of India’s presence in Afghanistan. It may have some ability to convince Afghan Taliban leaders to join peace talks by leaning on those who are based in Pakistan, or whose families live there, as and when it judges the timing is right
<<<

Well, I read the report and this is quite damning. I was thinking Iran would be somewhere in there as well.

Billions of USD taxpayer financial aid, billions of IMF bailouts, and what is some of this being used for?….it appears to kill allies’s soldiers in Afghanistan….make more nukes….create terrororism and subvert the NATO mission in Afghanistan to ensure its utter failure and also probably more terrorist training camps in Kashmir. U.S. taxpayer dollars are being use to create terrorism against Indians…..It appears the financial source of terrorism is misused U.S. Aid and the terrorists are from Pakistan.

Once the double dealing and backstabbing is coupled with another terrorist attack on US soil, an attack of Pakistani origin, the anger in the U.S. will be uncontainable.

@keithz,

you know the excuses are running out, the next excuse will be….”India forced our hand to create the Taliban”…or some other bogus idiotic comment about strategic depth or nonsense of regional interests.

Now, Umair has put his dancing shoes on again…talking about Mossaid, Iran Contra, CIA, entrapment, India, blame anything else to divert and avoid facing the truth and the shame of its country and agencies,

Pakistani’s have been caught with their pants down again an their hands are in the wrong places as well……

@Umair,..

You said: “—Pakistan does not need to deny or present any explanation. There is a war in Afghanistan, everyone is working for their own interest and there is nothing wrong with it.”

–>This comment just shows how indifferent some Pakistani’s are to the death of NATO soldiers, whose families are the U.S. taxpayers, who have given billions of aid to Pakistan and its Army.

The anger in the American ranks will prompt a whole barrage of options regarding Pakistan from denuclearization to disarming to even unilateral strikes against Rogue agencies.

If ISI is aiding and abetting the Taliban to kill U.S. and NATO soldiers, legally speaking, is not justification or reason enough to declare Pakistan a rogue nation?

I don’t see how the report is false, given the credibility of the source and the credibility of Pakistani Agencies. If Pakistani’ agencies are involved in the death of NATO soldiers, this will demand a reprimand of an active kind.

Once the numb, slow and thick U.S. taxpayer public get wind of this, it will become a political fireball.

By quoting the spokes-person of the PA or digging up an obsolete/irrelevant article from 2002 & a conspiratorial book of an author, who seems to have an agenda against the west, won’t hide the realities of today or justify the duplicitous & slimy game being played by your army/ISI. You guys don’t realize it now but you’ll be paying a pretty steep price for this game.

Anyway, this is old news now. A lot of this has been known for a while in the places where it matters. The US and the rest of the West has already started planning a long term strategy for Pakistan. It’s only news, now that it’s out in public.

Pakistanis are foolish if they think the US and the West have no clue about their double-dealing. It’s just that the US is incredibly patient and feels that through dialogue Pakistanis can be made to understand. But there’s a limit to that patience.

And you can bet that there’s a whole bunch of think tanks around the world now mapping out what it’ll take to get out of Afghanistan and contain Pakistan.

The United States has discovered nearly $1 trillion in untapped mineral deposits in Afghanistan, far beyond any previously known reserves and enough to fundamentally alter the Afghan economy and perhaps the Afghan war itself, according to senior American government officials.

The most stunning finding in the report is how Americans are being robbed and duped.

The following are excerpts from the document.

READ THIS FIRST:

Since 2001 America has provided Pakistan with $11.6 billion in security-related assistance and $6 billion in economic aid. It is due to provide at least $7.5 billion dollars of aid over the next five years. (page 22)

THEN READ THIS:

1. We get 10,000 Pakistani rupees ($120) per month for each Talib. This money comes from Pakistan, first to the [shadow] provincial governor, then to the district commander, then to the group commander. It is from the Pakistan government – but maybe other countries too, are paying from behind the curtain.’62 One southern commander reported that groups were paid bonuses for successful attacks against coalition forces, usually of $2,000-3,000, which he believed were derived from ISI sources (page 15)

2. For sure the ISI were paying a lot of money: groups of 20-30 people got 2-3 million Pakistani rupees [$24,000-$36,000] each year.’68 Some Afghan and western security officials believe that the ISI is also covering the living costs of the families of Taliban fighters who live in Pakistan (page 15)

3. The district commander described how arms and ammunition would sometimes arrive in his
area by trucks, and sometimes by horses, donkeys or camels, which was ‘from the Pakistani military’. He said that they were paid salaries: fighters receive around 9-10,000 Pakistani rupees ($110-120) a month and he, as a commander, receives 15-20,000 Pakistani rupees($170-220) a month (page 20)

Obama has two and a half years left in this term. We do not know if he will make through the second term or not.

In the case of Af-Pak, Obama has done the right thing so far. If he had been President when 9/11 happened, things would have been settled by now. Unfortunately, that is not the case.

In the remaining time of his tenure as President, I do not know how much Obama will intensify his efforts into Pakistan itself.

If a regime change happens in the US and Republicans come back to the White House, things will shift again. ISI and Pak military have a much closer understanding with the Republicans. There is a book titled, “Nuclear Deception” which narrates in detail about how the State Department, the CIA and the Republicans in general helped Pakistan build its nuclear bomb technology, just in order to get their objectives in the region accomplished. The State Dept tipped off Pakistani agents in the US who were shopping around for Maraging Steel. Anyway, all that is old story.

If Obama’s term ends in the White House, the ISI might survive again. Time is running out. Kandahar operations are going to be slowed down. Pakistan has survived by duplicity and double dealing all along. They might just drag this war further along, taking a gamble on who the next President would be in the US. I will not be surprised if Pakistan will be involved in any assassination attempts on Obama. Only after his arrival have things gotten worse for Pakistan. Obama’s initiatives are becoming too uncomfortable for Pakistan and they might work through their Republican and neo-con lobby in the US to thwart him.

UmairPk: “At the highest level, the classic example of entrapment, before Operation 9/11 to frame Osama bin Laden and company, was operation “C-Chase” in 1988, the purpose of which was to frame the Bank of Credit and Commerce International (BCCI) headed by Agha Hasan Abedi of Pakistan and force its closure. Operation 9/11 is more complex because during this operation, Pakistan’s military intelligence agency (ISI) was entrapped while playing a role in facilitating 9/11. ”

BCCI was heavily involved in the transactions related to Pakistan’s nuclear weapon development. Pakistan received billions of dollars during the war against the Soviets and most of the funding did not reach the end users. It got syphoned off by the ISI/Pak Military establishment to fund the KRL. BCCI was the institution that engaged in all kinds of shady transactions to erase all paper trails. One of the reasons why BCCI was quashed after the Afghan war was the US was behind it. My reference is a big book titled, “Nuclear Deception”. The US went along with everything until the Soviets withdrew from Afghanistan. After that they could not hide the facts for too long regarding their own complicity to Pakistan’s nuclear weapons program.

ISI is not made up of angels. There is nothing to frame around it. It is an evil organization that has begun to resemble some of the criminal drug cartels that control everything. ISI needs to be destroyed if any solution to the Afghan crisis has to be found.

I don’t agree with the notion that if the Republicans come to power in 2012, they’ll simply turn a blind eye towards Pakistan’s duplicity & side with the Pak army’s agenda in the region. I understand that in the past, republican administrations have been much more favorable to the Pak army than the democrats have, but things have changed since those days & I don’t think that will be the in the future. One of the primary reasons I say so is because in the past, the American people simply didn’t care about what was going on in the region or with Pakistan because it did not affect them (or at least they thought so). But things have changed since 9/11 & public awareness towards the region & Pakistan’s slimy ways has been growing, causing a growing resentment against Pakistan (especially in the last few years). More & more americans have started to realize that Pakistan’s double-dealing is costing american lives in Afghanistan & threatening american lives at home. So, hypothetically speaking, if the Republicans win the white house in 2012, I very much doubt that they’ll just change direction & get back to their pre-9/11 policies vis-a-vis Pakistan because the watchfullness of & pressure from the american people simply won’t allow them to do so.

I sincerely hope I am wrong. However, based on past history, most problems in Af-Pak region, the growth of ISI and militancy, mixed in with radicalism etc have direct correlation for Republican governments. Even after 2001, the neo-cons did not show much interest in the region and focused on Iraq instead. Their initial reaction was to calm the American public and feed on their sentiments. After that they simply threw money into Musharraf’s lap and did not care much about what was happening in the region. Musharraf took that money and spent most of it on buying equipment and setting up defenses against India. The rest got syphoned off to sustain the Taliban. It was Obama administration that realized that it is not just Afghanistan, but Pakistan formed a major part of the operation.

There is still a lot of sympathy for Pakistan in the Republican side, from the cold war days. The same residue is present in UK and other cold war allies. You can see that in the articles these people write here. Pakistan is still getting by due to those old alliances.

Militants are fully intact. Those who were killed probably are innocent civilians who dress just like the militants (it is the other way around actually) or those who did not align with the Pak military. The rest are left there for “strategic depth.” I think they are going to drown in that depth themselves.

Anyway, I wouldn’t worry too much about this. I’ve a heard much of this on the inside, years ago.

Pakistanis are deluding themselves if they think they can get away with it, without anybody finding out.

They are just lucky that the US has a remarkable amount of patience. That’s the Americans for you. The Americans keep believing that dialogue will bring around the Pakistanis.

But there is a limit to their patience. And once they pull out of Afghanistan, their patience will be exhausted. There’s a shift in the US stance towards Pakistan, that’s coming and if you look closely for it, is already underway.

The Pakistanis are and will shoot themselves in the foot with this tactic. Their actions will precipitate a shift in US-Pakistani relations. The US, in part because of Pakistani-based terrorism, will see common cause with India. The Chinese might like to use Pakistan as a wedge against India. But they already have one pariah state to babysit (DPRK). I doubt they want two. Especially now that Pakistan based Islamist terrorists are showing up in Western China. You can be sure that if AQ starts showing more sympathy for the Uighurs, Chinese sympathy for Pakistan will decline substantially.

The Pakistani grand strategy is penny wise and pound foolish. It’s as simple as that. They’ll gain Afghanistan and lose the rest of their friends in the process.

I agree with Mortal. The Republicans are starting to take a much harder line about Pakistan.

I would consider the Bush administration an anomaly. Bush was a simple-minded neo-con. Unfortunately, he could not cope with the extremely complex situation he faced (and in part created). He had a genuine desire to continue what Clinton started, with regards to opnening up to India. With the rise of the Indian community in the US, both parties are working hard to court them. And opening up to India has been part of that effort by both the Clinton and Bush II.

What blew his plan out of the water, was 9/11. The slow shift towards India, had to stop as the US needed Pakistani co-operation in the war on terror. What compound Bush’s problems was running off to Iraq. This increased reliance on Pakistan exponentially.

However, attitudes are changing in the US. It became most obvious post-Mumbai. Republicans are starting to see the India-Pakistan relationship in similar terms to the Israel-Arab relationship, a democracy, surrounded by hostile aggressive neighbours that use terrorism liberally. Combine that with the growing terror threats emanating from Pakistan against the US and the rest of the West, and we are starting to see that Pakistan’s friends in the US are getting fewer and fewer in between. Even Pakistani Americans are finding it harder and harder to defend the actions of the Pakistan Army and government.

@ KPSingh: “After that they simply threw money into Musharraf’s lap and did not care much about what was happening in the region. Musharraf took that money and spent most of it on buying equipment and setting up defenses against India”

I agree that post 9/11, Mushsrraf/PA took complete advantage of Bush’s obsession with Saddam Hussein & that of the neocon’s with Iraq/oil & cheated the US tax payer for a long time. But the exposure of their double-game started towards the end of the Bush presidency itself and many republican officials had started to adopt a much stricter tone with Pakistan. The exposure of Pakistan’s duplicitous nature is another reason, why any US President, democrat or republican, will be quite wary while dealing with them in the future. Also, as Keith pointed out, US-India relations quite blossomed during the Bush era & that’s another proof of the abandonment of cold war era policies by the republicans. So, I very much doubt that any future republican president will change course & go back to their old policies.

@ Kethz: “The Pakistani grand strategy is penny wise and pound foolish. It’s as simple as that. They’ll gain Afghanistan and lose the rest of their friends in the process”

And god forbid, if there’s another terror attack in the US/West with links to Pakistan, they will be toast.

@KEihz
I am slowly getting the impression that you and many of your compatriots on this forum are living in the cooku land; according to the BBC which is not an independent body and reflects the foreign policy of the United Kingdom, states that the balance of power in the world is shifting. And you guys are all getting exited about ISI activities and the fear you have from Pakistan territory. If you believe that any of the academic institutions in the West including the London School of Economics are independent, then one should forgive you for your innocence.Right now Mr Obama is trying to assist BP plug the hole to save the disaster the country is likely to face and thefore begging almost on a daily basis the BP to pay compensations to the American citizens. OPakistan Govt. and the military in my view is harmless for India or Afghanistasn. Your concern should be with the so called Talibans who,sooner than later are going to spead across the Pakistan heartland without having any regard for the borders which were created by the Brits. Neither the nuclear armed Pakistan or India would be able to resist their intrusion. I am surprised to note that you guys from the other side have set writings which are simply posting on this forum regardless of the subject. Yes, my comments were made to
to allow you to have a rational review of the article. But you guys appear to give the impression that you genuinely consider that the USA credibility in the world is still in place. I am sorry, those who relied on the USA have all been declared insolvent.
Rex Minor

@Truth Seeker
I am neither an Indian nor a Pakistani citizen, but here is the reply.
The USA along with the major European Countries are living on borrowed money. Perhaps you tell me who are the creditors? I can give you two names, namely the Chinese and the Saudis!!!
I happen to live in the largest European economy and am a tax payer. The Govt. is preparing the legislation to introduce austerity measures to cut down the borrowing over the next decade and beyond. They definitely do not plan to cut down the aid which is provided to India. The USA accounting people normaly include the payments to Pakistan for logistic services in the aid amount. The bulk of the aid is the military hardware for Pakistan defence including the supersonic fighter aircrafts- to fight the so called Talibans? A good day.
Rex Minor
PS Sorry, I would not feel sorry for the American Tax Payer, who have been living for donkey years beyond their means. It is the oil smelling money which is keeping them alive. Their spread of the military in foreign countries is to explore for the oil and mineral reserves. Now they have got a hole in their backyard oozing daily thousands tons of oil for the coast.

KeithZ: “The slow shift towards India, had to stop as the US needed Pakistani co-operation in the war on terror. What compound Bush’s problems was running off to Iraq. This increased reliance on Pakistan exponentially.”

It is not so much I am looking for the US to shift its alliance with India. The best thing would be to fix the problem in Af-Pak and go home. In the future, the US should try not to treat the rest of the world as its fiefdom where Prime Ministers and Presidents of other countries show up at Washington to report to the American President.

Let us not forget history here. When exigencies happen, all alliances, allegiences and treaties disappear into thin air. In 1978, Carter Administration was going great guns against Pakistan. Zia was criticized for his coup and the death sentence on Bhutto. Pakistan was facing a pariah status. Suddenly the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan changed everything. All principles were off. Within a year or two, Pakistan became the most important ally for the US in its fight against the Soviets. Radical Islam was not a problem. Running Pakistan under military dictatorship was not a problem. Bhutto’s memory was buried in his grave. The US helped thwart any attempt to curtail Pakistan from making its Islamic bomb. The Reagan administration lied to the Congress about Pakistan’s nuclear build up in order to get the war funding allocation to be approved. State department and the CIA worked round the clock to help the White House carry out its mission by burying all evidence, helping the Pakistanis from being caught in Europe and the US. Just one exigency caused all principles to fly in the air.

Where is the gurantee that another episode like this will not happen? All it would take is for China to make one wrong move. And do not assume anything about the Chinese. They are the most unpredictable people around. They are facing one of the worst labor crisis in their history. Civil war is going in in Kyrguzthan. Connect the dots. If China takes one step to distract its people, that will offset all balance. The US will need to make its move correspondingly. Based on past history, Pakistan will exploit that situation to its advantage.

I am watching the events with interest. If the ISI is being cornered, expect something to happen in the region. I think the Americans know this and might be feeling nervous about it. It is the ISI that has dragged this war despite Kayani doing his belly dance for the Americans. As of today, this war is the longest faced by the US in its entire history.

When the ISI realized that the US might twist the Taliban’s arm, it arrested Mullah Baradar and kept him off from anyone approaching for sometime. And it was acclaimed as a great strategic move by many admirers who write in Reuters.

I’d like Indo-American relationship to build on its own merits, independent of US-Pakistan affairs. India is not looking for a relationship where it simply replaces Pakistan as the next ally. That kind of a relationship is temporary and we have seen Pakistan go down the drain. India does not want to “depend” on US support for its survival and growth. It has strived for independence as much as possible, while building a better understanding and relationship with the US. I’d like to make the clear.

Some people are plain prejudiced. Most of you are on the anti-taliban band wagon, but then all of a sudden believe in the report supposedly based on interviews with the Talibans? You can load this forum with reports and news from all over the world. When are you going to fundamentals yourself?

. Indian military is suppressing the Kashmir folks and denying them the basic human rights to which all the citizens of the world are entitled. This has created resistance and now they are commiting criminal acts in the heartland of India.
. Pakistan military is equally involved,at the behest of foreign forces, in causing destruction and deaths among the civilians, old and children. This has created resistance from the Pashtoons who would revenge and are now conducting attacks in the heartland of Pakistan.
. The USA has invaded Afghanistan and along with their allies have caused destrucion and deaths of innocent civilians including old people and children. This must have consequences, to use the borrowed phrase of the lady, in creating the resistance from mainly the Passhtoons(give them a name of your choice) and this is unlikely to stop until the foreigners have left.
Now the three Govts affected can sit back and continue their malitary campaigns, hoping to exaust the enemy,but history tells us that the resistance is going to increase and with the passage of time a train of suicide commandos with moire lethal equipment would be the real consequence.
This is the current scenario. My humble opinion is that in the interest of world peace, war is not an option. Remember the old Greek who said war destroys more than it provide gains. Millions of people, whose leaders looked for the alternative solutions for resolving such issues are lying buried in the sub-comtinent. This choice has always been there but has never worked.
We have the examples in Europe, people of this continent willed and choose the path of peace and for sixty years we have seen peace, not because of the downfall of Soviet Union nor due the grand defence by the Allied troops, but very simply due to the will power of the people. The american citizens have a long way to go for peace, for in peace they see their existence in question.
Rex Minor

You (like many Indians) fail to comprehend the shift that was under way in US policy towards South Asia pre-9/11. A lot of that has to do with the growing influence of the Indian-American community in the West. Their success, combined with with their strong compatibility with Western values (moderation, family values, etc.) has given them a strong voice.

Combine that with the end of the Cold War, and a growing recognition (even in the US) that the World is moving to an era of multi-polar dynamics and the US understands that it needs a new approach in the 21st century to ensure its own national interests.

From the Indian perspective, I can understand the prickliness. Anybody that’s been a friend of Pakistan or the US is automatically written off in Indian eyes for the next half century.

However, the US isn’t looking to colonize India. They (and the rest of the West) recognize great economic and security interests in India and are looking for a genuine partnership.

Likewise, nobody is looking to colonize Pakistan either. If Pakistan could guarantee tomorrow that not a single terror plot would emanate from her soil to the West (or in such a form that it doesn’t harm Western interests or citizens in India) then the rest of the world might leave Pakistan alone.

The Pakistanis can’t do that. And there in lies the rub. And that’s why the US has to maintain a relationship with Pakistan.

You cite various historical grievances. Fair enough. But would any other country have acted differently from the US. At the end of the day all countries pursue their own national interests. Is India an exception? Does India shoot itself in the foot out of generosity or something? I don’t get the constant stream of anti-Western negativity from you. It’s scarcely better than what we hear from Pakistanis. It just comes from a different set of talking points.

You have to let the past go. Recognize that times have changed. Like India, the rest of the world has changed dramatically too. So have the interests of all the players involved in the region. The US would rather not be tied to Pakistan but is forced to be. For that matter, I actually think the Chinese would rather not be tied to Pakistan either. Once the war in Afghanistan ends and there aren’t Western troops that can be held hostage, do you really think US/NATO-Pakistan relations will remain as cordial as they do now?

But aside from that, I go back to the point, of why? Why should the US be the guarantor of Indian interests vis-a-vis Pakistan? On one hand, you claim that you don’t want the US in the region. On the other hand, India claims that the US should clamp down on Pakistan. So which is it? The US cares about the state of Pakistan and the groups that it harbours because US national security is impacted. But it’s not superhuman. It can’t contain each and every threat emanating from Pakistan. It’s ridiculous for Indians to expect the US to do so. Or to expect the US to basically treat Pakistan like a colony. At the end of the day, how much co-operation from Pakistan would that engender and how much would get done?

Pakistan has to be dealt with, just like North Korea. A multi-lateral approach is called for with each interested party laying out their interests and attempts being made to find a common ground and form a common front that will contain the threats to all. It’ll take time, but I am sure it’ll work out in the end. It’s contained North Korea for over half a century.

If we contain Pakistan, like N. Korea., Pakistanis will starve to death, it will push Pakistan on the brink of becoming like a starving African country, where people on the Pakistani side look over the border, as INdians celebrate diwali and cheer over every holiday.

Why would we not believe what the Taliban say here? We disagree with their objectives. But that does not make them liars. Moreover, on this issue, I fail to see why they would be lying. If anything they would deny co-operation with the PA. What would they gain by suggesting that the PA co-operates with them?

I don’t mean that in this case, we are containing Pakistan by starving them.

Obviously that’s not going to be the case. I am merely referring to the approach that’s used. As in, the threats that emanate from Pakistan would be contained using a multi-lateral approach that would involve India, the US, China, the UK and maybe the EU and/or Canada….essentially, countries whose national security is impacted by instability in Pakistan. You might even be able to throw Iran and/or Saudi Arabia into the mix too.

It wouldn’t necessarily be sanctions. A carrot and stick approach, just like North Korea, would be used to compel co-operation.

I personally think, it’s a better approach, than what’s being done today, where each country that has issues with Pakistan takes it up separately, and nobody achieves anything out of the negotiations, nor does Pakistan itself succeed in making headway on their own interests or improving their own security.

The so called Talibans are Pashtoons and are the integral part of Afghanistan and Pakistan people. Not the integral part of Afghan or Pakistan Govts. I have mentioned earlier about the smart American envoys to this region starting from Henry Kissinger and now his nephew Holbrook, who are ignorant of the language and the traditions of these folks but still claim to know the whole scenario in a very short time. Most of the published info is nothing but trash. In your view the NYT and Washington Post are independent and always publish the bible level news and yet this view is not shared by many living outside of the USA.
Perhaps you guys should visit the neighbourhood and try to learn the gringo culture which is even different from the anglo saxon way of thinking.
Regarding your chat about what “WE” (the language used by the immigrant candidates for citizenship) should deal with Pakistan, and the reference to containment of North korea;
:The USA has not been containing North Korea but South Korea and Japan. North Korea is today the atomic power with home build nuclear arsenal and therefore immune from the USA aggression. The successive Japanese Govts. have tried to rid themself of Okinawa and the American nuvclear weaponry but failed. Let us see if the new Govt. in Japan is going to say adeo to the USA.
The USA entered into the pact with Pakistan, Turkey and Jordan, but declined to support Pakistan in its conflict with India. Pakistan went ahead and developed nuclear weapons of their own and obtained rocket technology from North Korea, I guess.
The USA hesitated to provide military hardware to Pakistan and Pakistan went ahead and developed long term military relationship with China.
The USA tried to control and later contain Iran after Shah’s departure but Iran went ahead with their nuclear program without any assistance from the USA. I guess you guys know which country assisted them.
The USA wanted to contain Indian rising power and entered into the civilian nuclear agreement with India. The Indian can now enjoy the benefits and develope close relations with Israel.
Turkey contributes the second largest contingent after USA in NATO and has been protecting the western world since the end of the WW2. Yet the USA refused to condemn Israel for the murder of turkish citizens by Israel commondos in high seas. The fall out would be Turkish exit from the NATO alliance.
The greatest danger to India is from within and in the globalised world these groups have the facilities to train for criminal acts from the USA, to Somalia and right across in central Asia including Afghanistan and Pakistan. Why not find peaceful solution through the political dialogue. People have always preferred evolution instead of revolution. For this one needs leadership.
Rex Minor
PS. No snotty comments please.

KeithZ: “You have to let the past go. Recognize that times have changed. Like India, the rest of the world has changed dramatically too. So have the interests of all the players involved in the region.”

Agreed. The people to people level interaction between Indians and Westerners has been very good and healthy. There is lot of respect for Indians in the academic and research circles in the Western world. Indian immigrants have contributed tremendously to the advancement of science and technology in those countries, which has trickled down back to India itself. All those things are wonderful. But politics is very different. The hawks in Washington and the imbeciles in New Delhi still have their old cold war residual mindset that has not disappeared entirely. While India and the US have moved a lot closer in terms of economic co-operation, in terms of geo-political interactions, things have been quite slow. I hope that with time things improve on this front as well. There is still an air of doubt about American sincerity which can fluctuate widely based on changing conditions. Since the US has a huge global clout, what it does for its interersts can affect others dearly. India has been on the receiving end in that regard. We are not expecting Americans or others to come and fix our problems. We just want them to fix the problems that they have created due to their objectives in the past.

We’d like to see a strong, stable and democratic Pakistan in the neighborhood. I am hoping that Gilani makes it through his full term first – one step at a time. If that process gets derailed, Pakistan will be staring at the abyss, which is not healthy for the entire region.

It is just past paranoia that still makes everyone cautious.

“The US would rather not be tied to Pakistan but is forced to be. For that matter, I actually think the Chinese would rather not be tied to Pakistan either. Once the war in Afghanistan ends and there aren’t Western troops that can be held hostage, do you really think US/NATO-Pakistan relations will remain as cordial as they do now?”

I look at trends and draw my inferences based on that. There is enough history where similar trends led to siutations that brought the world into conflict with itself. Europe is hurting economically. They are on the brink themselves. US has huge budget deficits to deal with. China has labor unrest that seems to be spreading. What this means is that each power has its own pressing issues that need immediate attention. Public anger will turn towards governments spending money on their ventures outside like expensive wars. Leaders can either scale back on their war efforts to avoid public wrath or escalate it to make the crisis so bad that there would be no other option left but to go along. When big beasts get into their clashes, small jackals and hyenas make the most of the opportunity. They help escalate the conflicts by taking a bite here and there, thereby help accelerate the fall of the big beasts. Pakistan comes in this category. They have always exploited pressing global crises to their advantage to carry out their missions – Islamic bomb, radicalization, militant training etc. Now they seem to have completed the brain washing of their people. From an Indian stand point, this looks really dangerous. Hence my concerns.

I sincerely hope I am proved wrong. But trends are pointing towards a not so rosy future.

RexMinor: “North Korea is today the atomic power with home build nuclear arsenal and therefore immune from the USA aggression.”

If you are really honest and a peace loving person, you will never support North Korea. Its nuclear capability is due to Pak military’s dubious nuclear proliferation deals. In exchange for uranium enrichment technology, Pakistan got the warhead design and missile technology. The US, in general, is a benevolent power. Even the Chinese would vouch for that.

“The successive Japanese Govts. have tried to rid themself of Okinawa and the American nuvclear weaponry but failed. Let us see if the new Govt. in Japan is going to say adeo to the USA.”

Is this what is being preached amongst Pakistanis and their supporters? Japan is sitting right next to two hostile countries – China and North Korea. Why would they ask the Americans to leave? Where are you getting this kind of information from?

“The USA entered into the pact with Pakistan, Turkey and Jordan, but declined to support Pakistan in its conflict with India.”

Cold war is over. If the US decided to support Pakistan during a war with India, USSR was going to support India to counter that. All this is old story. Now the US is almost at the brink of taking out Pakistan.

“Pakistan went ahead and developed nuclear weapons of their own and obtained rocket technology from North Korea, I guess.”

There is no need to guess. Pakistan developed enriched uranium technology by stealing it from the Dutch. They still could not put them together into a bomb. That technology was gifted by China, along with enriched uranium for a 25 kTon bomb. North Korea bartered the missile technology with Pakistan for nuclear weapon development. No one in their right mind would give out such technologies to rogue nations. So the rogue nations help each other out. What a brotherhood!

“The USA hesitated to provide military hardware to Pakistan and Pakistan went ahead and developed long term military relationship with China.”

China is in it for its own reasons and Pakistanis should not delude themselves into believing that China will do anything beneficial to Pakistan. Their Karakoram Highway is now turned into a waterway, ready to burst out and blast all villages on its path.

“The USA tried to control and later contain Iran after Shah’s departure but Iran went ahead with their nuclear program without any assistance from the USA. I guess you guys know which country assisted them.”

Everyone knows who assisted Iran’s nuclear development. Why would the USA help Iran build its nukes? The US did not help Pakistan either. It just was forced to turn a blind eye to Pakistan’s stealthy operation to achieve that end, due to cold war geo-politics.

“The USA wanted to contain Indian rising power and entered into the civilian nuclear agreement with India. The Indian can now enjoy the benefits and develope close relations with Israel.”

Saudi Arabia is considering to allow Israeli jets fly over its territory to knock out Iranian reactors. That is the latest news.

Making business deals does not equate to containing another country. Doing business is anyday better than making military alliances.

“Turkey contributes the second largest contingent after USA in NATO and has been protecting the western world since the end of the WW2. Yet the USA refused to condemn Israel for the murder of turkish citizens by Israel commondos in high seas. The fall out would be Turkish exit from the NATO alliance.”

Israel had to take action because those boats entered Israeli waters without proper approval of the Israeli government. Try sending in protesters into American waters and see what happens. Israel has had problems dealing with terrorists right from the start. They probably suspected terrorists hiding in between the protesters and activists. It is foolish to take emotional actions and get shot as a result.

“The greatest danger to India is from within and in the globalised world these groups have the facilities to train for criminal acts from the USA, to Somalia and right across in central Asia including Afghanistan and Pakistan”

The great danger to India is not from within. There are always cranky people inside every country and in general they can be contained. The real danger to India is Ismalic terrorism that is emanating from Pakistan in all directions. Pakistan itself is getting burnt for creating it.

You still may want to consider my approach, obese the militants to death?…this is something “the cabal” must try. Starving people just makes them into martyrs. Why not do the opposite and just fatten them out of existence, the militants, that is.

Your ramble is all way too snotty though. I’m skeptical about your claim you are not on dole…judging by your ramble it looks like you are one of those “peaceful” people who “beleive in dialogue” and plan or support bomb blasts at buses and trains to kill civilians..

@GW – If we contain Pakistan, like N. Korea., Pakistanis will starve to death, it will push Pakistan on the brink of becoming like a starving African country, where people on the Pakistani side look over the border, as INdians celebrate diwali and cheer over every holiday.

>> I think this statement encapsulates India’s homicidal fanaticism towards Pakistan since its birth. You can just sense the pure joy the commenter has at the mere thought of skeletal Pakistani babies slowly wasting away as Indians celebrate their slow and excruciating death. The sickest part of this perverse fantasy is that death is not an adequate punishment by itself. Before they take their last breath, infants, toddlers and elders alike, must look across the border with envy as the Indians celebrate an abundance of joy and nourishment.

If anyone in or out of Pakistan has ever had any doubt about why we need nuclear deterrence, I think this perverse mentality of genocidal hatred is all that’s needed.

I admire your contribution here on the blogs. But you should be cautious here in commenting. Especially because that makes Mirzausman breaks his promise of keeping silent nth time and he has incorporated “babies’ in his commentary to dramatize the effect.

See Pakistan made the Islamic bomb cuz they knew you are going to make this comment in future.
________________________________________ __________

@If anyone in or out of Pakistan has ever had any doubt about why we need nuclear deterrence, I think this perverse mentality of genocidal hatred is all that’s needed.
Posted by mirzausman

–I am not supporting anyone here but I would like to know how nuclear deterrence will prevent starvation by sanctions. North Korea did not succeed.

to celebrate as they are seeing some prosperity after decades of poverty…now they have fantasies to starve Pakistan….lol
Posted by naughtypak
=====

No amount of blogging and hiding behind “lol” will take away one simple fact…Indians have digniy and paks dont. You eat from the hands of Americans, a colony of USA, ruled by Viceroy Clinton.

When an Indian Muslim can clear security check faster than a pak at an international airport flaunting Indian passport, your ideology has been defeated. Those hate filled tuberculous bones must be churning under that mausoleum..

@Seekeroftruth said:
“Indians have digniy and paks dont”
My friend don’t use rhetorics, the meaning of dignity is very subjective in international relations. Example: When red army captured Afghanistan the free word termed the resistance as fighting for independence and dignity. The other side with India at a prominent position termed the resistance as insurgency and terrorism while the people cooperating with Soviets were the real champions of nationalism and dignity.

—“You eat from the hands of Americans, a colony of USA, ruled by Viceroy Clinton”
Americans are our cold war era’s allies, they want to clean the mess created at that time, they are spending money because its in their interest. They are paying for the transit they are using for supplies. If your notion is true we are ruled by them, then why to cry on role of Pak army and ISI, they are doing what their masters say

“When an Indian Muslim…bla bla bla”
That’s what happened to even Americans of German and Japanese origin in second world war, to the communists during cold war, tomorrow will be someone else

“your ideology has been defeated. Those hate filled tuberculous…..bla bla bla”
Well, your words reflect the magnitude of hate you have for us, we Pakistanis dont hate anyone

I did not advocate containing Paks to starve them to death, no way. You got things wrong. Even if that did happen, why are you Paks not doing anything to make a major course correction in your mentality and the way you manage your politics of religion? The way you beg for money and use it to make nukes and train terrorists and claim that you are a victim….on top of that your ISI is training Taliban and those same Taliban are butchering the NATO soldiers in Afghanistan. In other words, there is a strong indication that monetary aid from the U.S. may actually be used to killing U.S. soldiers and this, if its true, is totally unacceptable and will command the full wrath of the U.S. taxpayer, at some point in the future.

The Punjabi Raj in Pakistan is robbing most poor Paks dry of potential and living a forced lower class existence and then blame it all on the U.S., India or Israel or western powers.

One day the underprivileged will rebel against you supremiscist punjabi’s and there will be civil war in Pakistan, not a matter of if, but when.

The fattened up Army people, having robbed your coffers and used the politics of religion to keep the poor stupid and away from progress will have escape plans to leave.

Every rich punjabi will be looking for a ticket out to a western country, those same countries some of you here profess to be such racist and facist countries.

For your Rich Punjabi Paks, with computers over there, you better find more secure gated communities to live in, or find a country that will take you. The poor there may one day rise up and demand fairness and that day may not be a pretty one….

I did not advocate containing Paks to starve them to death, no way. You got things wrong.

>> So you did not write this:

“If we contain Pakistan, like N. Korea., Pakistanis will starve to death, it will push Pakistan on the brink of becoming like a starving African country, where people on the Pakistani side look over the border, as INdians celebrate diwali and cheer over every holiday.”

I did read the reference you have given. That is called window washing and it does not mean anything. Americans kept lying that Pakistan did not have a nuclear bomb or that they were not working towards building one, during the war against the Soviets. They prevented anyone from leaking out the secrets in order to save their objectives. Unfortunately it was your emotional AQ Khan who made the declaration due to a fit of rage. The US was quite embarrassed. My source: Nuclear Deception by Adrian Levy and Clark.

Therefore I will not take the words of American officials and commanders when they make public statements. They have to be political in order to get their jobs done.

Did you bother to read the reference I gave? It looks like you just read the title and decided to provide a counter title. The reference I gave has been done by a journalist who is not bound by all the diplomatic BS and restrictions.

Like it or not. Behind the closed doors, tempers are flying high. Your military’s duplicity is well known. But now the Americans are finally beginning to get affected by it too. Until the Americans get the same experience as others have, not much moves in this region. Now that they know what it feels like, expect them to twist your military’s arms.

@KPSingh
My friend I only gave the American perspective, if you think they speak lies being the major stakeholders, you have right to think so.

“Behind the closed doors, tempers are flying high”
You might be privileged enough to sit in those closed door meetings, I am not 😉

“Now that they know what it feels like, expect them to twist your military’s arms.”
That’s funny KP you are giving threats to Pakistan on American behalf, are you appointed by them or a self appointed sympathizer?

It doesn’t matter whether I am sitting with Americans or not. One can see all the trends and there is enough in the recent history to rely upon to expect the outcome.

If the American and UK media are beginning to sound hostile, it means the circles have turned around. I do not see sympathetic articles towards Pakistan now-a-days.

I wish the hawks in your military understand the situation and co-operate with the Americans wholeheartedly. Duplicity worked in the past because it did not affect the US and its allies much. But it is beginning to affect now and they are getting frustrated much like India did earlier. You know well the US is not India. So if your militants, sorry, military generals think they can get away with their acts this time, they are going to be in for a surprise soon.

I am not an American sympathizer. It is just that our interests and their interests in the region are coinciding for the first time. We know the US has a much larger clout in anything than anyone else. So we hope they understand our concerns by experiencing what we have experienced and realize how not to make the same mistakes again.

Isn’t it interesting to note the squeals of the All Americans who cannot see or refuse to understand the blowback that was evident as long ago as Mark Twain’s writing in the 1800s? The propagandized US still insists they are the injured innocents abroad.
A little research will inform you that the US funded BOTH the Taliban and the Pakistani SS to remove the USSR invasive forces. Now they want to create sympathy for their own?
The Cheney/Rumsford/Kissinger mafia has no ethical or moral boundaries, and they have infected many nations, including their own.

You keep suggesting that the Taliban is fighting foreign occupation. True, they are. Except they are doing it for their narrow interests (largely defined by the Pakistan ISID’s objectives). They are scarcely doing it for the benefit of the people.

I don’t buy your arguments of popular support either. Poll after poll by both Western and non-Western agencies has shown little support for the Taliban. To the extent that some support the Taliban, it’s only because they want the fighting to end. They scarcely think life under the Taliban is heavenly.

And if the Taliban are supposed to be liberators of their people, then pray tell what the Pakistani Taliban are doing? Do agree with their objectives too? After all, while they may not see eye-to-eye there certainly is a lot of kinship, overlap and ideological affinity between the two groups. So are you cheering them on as much as you are cheering the Afghan Taliban on? Are you hoping they defeat the Pakistan Army too? …a move that would likely precipitate the downfall of the Pakistani state…at least as we know it today.

I’d love your perspective as a Pakistani staying in Europe (I am guessing Germany). I don’t buy your line about being entirely unbiased one bit.

It is very clear to me – It is not Islam, it is not about Muslims. It is just one country being hijacked by a cartel that is running the show in the region. Let me see how they deal with this situation.

Keith:
“I get more access than anybody on this forum, save maybe Myra. And I will say that Pakistanis should stop muttering, “Alll is Welllll.” to themselves.

Attitudes towards Pakistan behind closed doors are far less friendly than what you are seeing from their public statements. You really think the US didn’t know about the double-dealing for this long?”

-Keep in mind, Pakistan would be the toughest test, all rhetoric aside after the CIA suffered its worst single loss adter Beirut in Khost on 30 Dec 2009. CIA black sites across the world are all well known now, and the CBC investigative documentary on CIA mystery flights out of Af-Pak, Morroco, secret bases in Poland, notorios rendition programs etc. Mood in Pakistan is not good either, atleast ISI will defend its turf. ISI might not have the global reach like the CIA, but in Af-Pak you better be careful who you pick the fight with. better yet stay in good terms, I read the LSE report word by word and nothing is credible, no backing up with authentic sources. ISI merely having a shadowy presence among the Taliban doesn’t neccessarily means they support them.
You decide if Pakistan is an ally or not, then seek cooperation.
CIA’s coups starting from overthrow of Mossadeq in Iran 1953, funding Nicaraguan drug lords, enforcing regime changes, clandestine activities all are well known. What is it that ISI is doing that CIA has not done before? Infact If I would be honest, CIA has been the mentor of ISI. The worst thing is when your student confronts you and does things even better.
America might win wars, but keep losing allies and will be alone one day.

BTW
Just out of interest, my question to Keith is, why would you want to be hostile towards the Pakistani state, Army and Secret Service?
This is a country of 170 million, a majority Muslim nation and a nuclear weapons state. Pakistan’s stability is important and its the cohesion of the military structure that is important equally to the building of civilian institutions.
Quit playing games and get down to business. Pressure is on Pakistan to go into North Waziristan. Now our security forces are stretched thin, and there is a lack of capacity. Need to work things out.
Otherwise think tanks in the meantime can ponder on other alternatives vis-a-vis Pakistan. And let me tell you, those scenarios don’t look good. You achieve nothing by humiliating and betraying an allied nation.

Your countrymen should not be talking about betrayal, when they have misled everyone with their double dealing and duplicity. Pakistan has been setting things on fire and then making money helping to put out that fire. It is a quick and short way to gain more power in the region. Unfortunately, that fire is going to burn your country itself down. These things come with their calculated risks. Pakistani generals took a gamble and it did not go through. The end result is total chaos.

All this is unnecessary. But your countrymen have been driven by emotions based on hatred, paranoia, contempt and macho attitude. It has taken 60 odd years for your country to reach this state. The only thing that has been steady is this blind rage that has affected the mindset of Pakistanis, and their leaders and everything done so far has been India-centric. Your favorite general Kayani himself has declared that.

Bangladesh too is a Muslim nation. They do not seem to have this much of ego problems with India. They are not building nukes and arming themselves to the teeth. India has not meddled with them at all. There are disputes and issues that neighboring countries have at all times. But they are not equivalent to war mongering. Just look at Bangladesh and Pakistan – two Muslim countries. One has no problems being a neighbor of India. The other one has been acting like a paranoic delinquent.

There is no need for radicalization of your establishments. Such efforts need the constant fuel of hatred towards some community. That is why Keith referred to the genesis of Nazis in Germany and their eventual monstrosity. History is there to learn from and not repeat it.

An Indian author who prepared and documented evidence of mass graves in the Indian occupied Kashmir has said the UK together with USA can play an important role in highlighting the human rights violation in the held territory in light of her report.Dr.Angana Chatterji, co-convener, International People’s Tribunal on Human Rights and Justice in the Indian administered Kashmir, was briefing members of All Party Parliamentary Group on Kashmir under the chairmanship of Lord Nazir Ahmed at the House of Lords on Wednesday.

She said both the UK and USA being democratic countries where the human rights are held in the highest esteem must bring up this issue with the Indian Government and allow an independent and impartial inquiry into the discovery of mass graves.
Dr.Chatterji, Professor at the Department of Social and Cultural Anthropology, California Institute of Integral Studies, together with Srinagar-based lawyer Pervez Imroz founded the IPTK in 2008 and has been documenting the evidence of mass graves in various districts of held Kashmir.
The report she prepared has been titled ‘Buried Evidence’ and contains issues of disappearances, killing by police firings, fake encounters and extrajudicial killings and national security, torture, detention, and torture centres, gendered and sexualised violence, prisoners rights, rights of former militants, juvenile justice, acess to justice, landmines, commissions of inquiry and transparency and reprisal.
“The Indian Government record in IOK is quite appalling, “ she said adding that the country has failed to ratify a number of UN conventions on human rights and yet is attempting to seek a permanent membership of the UN Security Council.
The report is based on three years of research by Dr.Chatterji and Parvez Imroz. It has documented 2700 unknown, unmarked and mass graves containing 2943 bodies across 55 villages in Bandipore, Baramullaa and Kupwara districts of Kashmir.
These graveyards entombs bodies of those murdered in encounter and fake encounter killings between 1990 and 2009 and the graves include bodies of extrajudicial, summary and arbitrary executions and massacres committed by the Indian military and paramilitary forces.
“The postcolonial Indian state’s governance of Indian • administrated Kashmir requires the use of discipline and death as techniques of social control. Discipline is affected through military presence, surveillance, punishment and fear. Death is disbursed through’ extrajudicial’ means and those authorized by law.
These techniques of rule are used to kill and create fear of not just death but of murder,” she said.
The report said the conventional cementries that hold Kashmir’s dead are maintained by local people and organisations. Along side these cemeteries are other clandestine graveyards, often unarmed, unmarked.
They exist largely on community land, next of schools and homes, by the roadside and town square, in prayer grounds and forests, at the edges of fields across rural and urban space.
“Their affect on the local community is daunting. Mourning the dead is a habitual practise of dissent in Kashmir. Of the graves we investigated 2373 (87.9 per cent) were unnamed. Of these graves, 154 contained two bodies each and 23 contained more than two cadavers. Within these 23 graves the number of bodies ranged from 3 to 17,” Dr.Chatterji said.
She further said the Indian armed forces and the Jammu and Kashmir Police routinely claim that dead buried in unknown and unmarked graves to be ‘foreign militants and terrorists’. They claim that the dead were unidentified foreign or Kashmiri militants killed while infiltrating across the border areas into Kashmir or travelling from Kashmir to Pakistan to seek arms training.
Official state discourse conflates cross-border militancy with present nonviolent struggles by local Kashmiri groups for political and territorial self determination, portraying local resistance as ‘terrorist’ activity.
She said exhumation and indentification have not occured in sizable cases. The report examines 50 alleged ‘encounter’ killings by Indian security forces in numerous districts in Kashmir. Of these persons, 39 were of Muslim descent, four of Hindu descent and seven were not determined. Of these cases 49 were labelled militants/foreign insurgents by security forces. Following investigations, 47 were found killed in fake encounters and one was identifiable as a local militant.
“Mass and intensified extrajudicial killings have been part of a sustained and widespread offensive by the military and paramilitary institutions against civilians of Jammu and Kashmir. The methodical and planned use of killing and violence in Indian-administrated Kashmir constitutes crimes against humanity in the context of ongoing conflict,” Prof. Chatterji told the gathering.
She noted that the international community and institutions have not examined the supposition of crimes against humanity in the IOK and that the UN and its member states have remained ineffective in containing and halting the adverse consequences of the Indian state’s militarization in Kashmir.
She said Kashmir continues to be nuclear flashpoint in the conflict between Pakistan and India and the period between 1947 and 1987 witnessed people’s non violent struggles for the right of self-determination. The report noted that 6,67,000 military and paramilitary personnel continue to act with impunity to regulate movement, law and order. There are 671 security camps in Kashmir where torture and other brutalities have taken place.
“While the Indian Government has made repeated declarations regarding the internal demilitarization of Kashmir only cursory reductions in troops have been made, influenced by political interests and not those of human rights.”
A number of British MPs who attended the meeting expressed their ignorance about the report and said it was surprisingly that not much is known about these atrocities in the British society.Lord Nazir told the gathering that Early Day Motion was introduced in last House of Commons but to initiate a debate at least 100 MPs are required to sign on the motion.
He further said that APPGK delegation would shortly visit Azad Jammu and Kashmir and at the same time endeavour to tour the Indian part of Kashmir as well. The British MPs and other Kashmiri leaders appreciated the efforts of Dr.Chatterji and said in light of her report, greater efforts were required to bring it before the international community and hold India to account.

This is becoming a standard round that you Pakistanis play every time. First there is this chest thumping and breast beating about Pakistan being the most valuable ally in the war on terrorism, it is a nuclear power etc. Once points are raised about its dubious activities and duplicitous history, immediately denials are raised. Persistent arguments to prove the point receive silence in response. Then someone starts about the nineteen million Indian consulates in Afghanistan. Once that is countered, you guys play victims – Pakistan is suffering
from terrorism, its military is doing everything it can, ISI is doing charity work with Red Cross and Mother Teresa, Pakistan is being burnt by the USA etc. After some time, one of you comes out and start singing the Kashmir song – mass graves, genocide, chemical poisoning, and any other imaginable claims. Once that has been countered, you guys go back to the start of the cycle again – Pakistan is mighty, it is nuclear armed, it has China as its best friend, lover in bed etc.

Can you guys come up with some other list of arguments to prove your points? Tell us something that Pakistan has done that can be considered constructive over the years. It has always been setting things on fire. Pakistan has been like a monkey gone wild with fire on its tail. The only thing your leaders have worked hard for is enriched uranium for every citizen in Pakistan. You guys do not have a proper nation on hand, but a bunch of people under the control of a cartel that calls itself a military. That is why it is constantly in conflicts. When did Pakistan exist in peace? Have you guys thought about it? The world really does not care about Pakistan. It is getting the attention that criminals get. This is not a healthy sign. Think about it

MirzaUsman is spot on, Kashmir is the core issue, when Pakistan says it is the main issue, it means it matters. It is the Kashmir conflict, assymetric warfare between India and Pakistan and now that rivalry is openly evident in Afghanistan as well. Both countries are using Afghanistan in their cold war, India is increasing its footprint, while Pakistan is working to curtail India’s influence. A healthy discussion should include Kashmir, why is Pakistan following a policy of ‘strategic depth’ in Afghanistan? or keeping ‘assets’ for future settlement? Maybe if we have securtiy guarantees vis-a-vis India things would change.

But again, until Pakistan’s legitimate security interests are taken into account, Pakistan is accepted as a responsible nuclear power with previliges. I don’t see there would be any policy changes in Pakistan. Some call it ‘double-game’ I term it ‘safeguard national interests’.

So 9/11 happened because of Kashmir and that’s how NATO troops ended up in Afghanistan. In case you hadn’t noticed, it was over a decade between the end of the Cold War and 9/11. Pakistan’s Taliban proxy had all but won in all of Afghanistan.

Cut the crap and the diversionary tactics.

As for Pakistan’s ‘legitimate security interests’ nobody buys that line. It’s one thing to argue that Pakistan should have a say in what goes on in Afghanistan. Nobody disagrees with that. And to that end, NATO and the US have done as much as possible to accommodate Pakistan there, keeping in mind that there are limits to what western forces can do as guests of the Afghan government. But if Pakistan’s legitimate security interests lie in using Afghanistan as a sandbox for jihadis, then don’t be surprised if Pakistan rapidly finds itself at odds not just with the US and the West but also with China, the ‘stans (central Asia) and even Iran.

Increasingly, it’s starting to look like Pakistan is defining its strategic interests as diametrically opposed to rest of the world that wants to see a stable and prosperous Afghanistan. It’s becoming clear that Pakistan prefers chaos and misery in Afghanistan to stability there.

If Pakistanis want this so be it. It’ll haunt them when Afghanistan itself becomes a training ground for anti-Pakistan jihadis and as the rest of the world starts clamping down on Pakistan and views it as less of an ally.

KPSingh:
” Pakistan has been like a monkey gone wild with fire on its tail. The only thing your leaders have worked hard for is enriched uranium for every citizen in Pakistan. You guys do not have a proper nation on hand, but a bunch of people under the control of a cartel that calls itself a military. That is why it is constantly in conflicts. When did Pakistan exist in peace?”

KP strong words hey? and India is like a mad dog, each time it is hurt it barks but never bites, just goes away with its tail between its legs. Yes we are a nuclear power and are proud of it. Furthermore our nukes are safe with multilayered command and control systems in place and no one can breach the security or gain unauthorized access to it. We are a MNNA(Major Non- NATO Ally), have recently conclude EU-Pakistan summit, Have allies among Muslim nations and long term strategic defense ties with China. Sure we have our share of problems, but as a nation we have always pulled ourselves together and got through difficulties.

Now you tell me what constructive did India do? It spent money on atom bombs while poor farmers committed suicides. We still played catch up and build our own nukes, both nations are nuclear powers. Where is the difference? With economic reforms, stability and FATA development, putting things on the right track we have a chance to build a sustainable economy too. Don’t rant now that India is an emerging economy and power BS, I know very well the reality.

Pakistan surely stands for peace in the world, the world’s highest contributor to UN peacekeeping missions across the globe is the Pakistan Army with more than 10,000 troops currently stationed for peacekeeping operations. Its only you Indians who potray us badly, and as villains always. Yourselves you are no angels, you meddled in affairs of Sri Lanka, they hate you. You duped the Bangladeshis, today they regret the past. India is probably the only country in the world that has been to war with all its neighbours, has border disputes and issues with them.

Now i know your response, you will tell me how many call centers you have in India and how many Indians clean the floors of Microsoft and IBM. Enjoy yourselves. Don’t complain and suck it up. Lets see what you can do to tame Pakistan, and feel free to ally with any other nation against Pakistan, with your lies and deceptions. We know how to get around those pathetic tactics.

Keith
Western forces are occupying powers and not guests in Afghanistan, ask them and they will tell you the truth.
Pakistan always went the extra mile to play its role as an ally, today Pakistan Army has suffered its image, people in Pakistan (general public) have been alienated by the Army and think they are fighting a war for America. So many casulaties, sacrifices.

Cut the story short, Pakistan will always be asked to do more no matter how much we go the extra mile. It would have been better if we were not allied with the west. It was the sacrifice of Pakistan and Afghanistan that eastern europe is free now. We had a joint struggle against communism, but you had lost Pakistan when you left us alone in 1989 after Soviet withdrawal of Afghanistan. Pakistan scrambled to join the Mujahideen factions to create a government of unity there. The fallout was drugs, extremism, illegal firearms, border issues and refugees. Afghan-Soviet war ruined Pakistan, and still you accuse us today. Its is just unfortunate.

You will loose Pakistan and you will loose Turkey as well. With US now accepting Israel’s position, turkey has no choice after Gaza aid ship attack to turn to Arab states and Russian dominated bloc. Its unfortunate considering Turks are the largest military force in NATO after US and an important ally of west. What about Iran? That conflict is not over yet. What about Israel’s future, Palestine. The wider question is where do you see Pakistan? I think you will loose Pakistan as an ally, and that is the way it should be. Let Pakistan allign itself with turkey, kick the yanks out from here, enter into alliances with other nations, assert itself, follow an independent foreign policy, build a sustainable economy.

Keith
Just as you have complains from Pakistan, we have a long list of greviences. Today Pakistan Air Force was forced to buy Ukranian refueling tankers, joint-made PakChinese multi-role fighter aircrafts, AEW&C systems from Sweden. The allies never met our security needs, we paid for F-16 jets but never got deliveries, lack of spares grounded the fleet which was already in service. The Army also had to heavily invest in local defense production and push for defense exports in a bid to earn some revenue. The Navy was short of reconnaisance aircraft, submarines and warships, it is still a coastal Navy largely due to lack of modernization and meagre resources. Tell me one thing the allies did to enhance Pakistan’s security, give us the confidence and encourage policy shifts and ensure a long-term strategic interests vis-a-vis Pakistan.
I assure you, the current Obama adminstration, secretary Clinton are aware of the mistakes of the past, and have stated on record. Surely we are in a mess, the current situation in FATA and Afghanistan is a blow back of 1980s and activities that took place their. And one more thing forgot to mention, but you stated twice that US only funded Mujahideen not Taliban. Can you tell me who are the Haqani network based out of Afghanistan? They are same guys, Gulbudin Hekmatyar, Hizb-eIslami factions who were funded by CIA-ISI nexus during the Soviet-Afghan war.
Just accept we are in this together, I assure you the common man today also does not hate you in Pakistan. We can see policy changes, we can align our national interests, redefine our strategic paradigm. But only after we are treated as an ally.

Keith:
“rest of the world that wants to see a stable and prosperous Afghanistan. It’s becoming clear that Pakistan prefers chaos and misery in Afghanistan to stability there”

-Remember that with Pakistan the stakes are even higher, a larger and nuclear armed Muslim nation. If Pakistan falls, Afghanistan will look like picnic and Johadis will be roaming around the world blowing up metropolitan cities with radio-active dispersion devices. You better keep your fingers crossed and remain assured that the Strategic Plans Division based at JS Headquarters Chaklala Garrison Rawalpindi tightly hold the key to Pakistan’s nukes. So far the command and control systems look good and are improving further so no worries.
Among all the neighbours of Afghanistan, Pakistan has suffered most because of chaos there and helped most in terms of evicting the Soviets from there, providing shelter to Afgahns in Pakistan. We have always helped with transit trade, and just to mention vital logistical support to the coalition for which i don’t see you are grateful. Pakistan would definitely like to see a stable Afghanistan and have a say in future political dispensation. It is upto the allies to give us that representation or keep us on the fence. But then why do you complain if Pakistan does its own thing? Either we are onboard or we have to think for ourselves and look for other alternatives. Its simpe.

Boss, they see the world like a silent-film from the 1920s. India is dressed in all white with a white horse. Pakistan is dressed in all black with a black horse. The hero can do no wrong, the villain can do no good.

India’s illogical stance towards Pakistan has more to do with the previous millenium than the current one. This is tragic. If India can forget the previous 1000 years and stop its state-sponsored terrorism in kashmir, pakistan would become an exemplary neighbor.

Pakistan always went the extra mile to play its role as an ally, today Pakistan Army has suffered its image, people in Pakistan (general public) have been alienated by the Army and think they are fighting a war for America.
-umairpk

Oh please. The “We’re the aggrieved vitctim.” tag line is starting to wear of in the West.

Pakistan has gotten tons of aid. And to what effect? The US has demanded that it actually go to benefit the people. But it got diverted. When the US demanded an accounting of its aid money, the PA made it a sovereignty issue (thereby showing who really drives foreign policy in Pakistan by the way).

And no, nobody sees you as the ally who went the extra mile these days. That was the case during the Cold War maybe. But today, almost everyone sees a duplicitous ally who makes deals with folks who kill our troop.

Tell me one thing the allies did to enhance Pakistan’s security.-umairpk

Didn’t give you guys the North Korea treatment after the AQ Khan fiasco. Count yourselves lucky, you got off as lightly as you did. If it had been any other country, the consequences would have been far, far worse. Don’t think that behind the scenes other NATO countries and some US officials weren’t pushing for some devastating sanctions. Lucky for you guys, Clinton had to deal with an intern under his desk, which made him kind of distracted.

As for the other grievances about defence supplies. If your proliferation record wasn’t so horrible, you’d get more. NATO countries start worrying when weapons that are given to Pakistan are mysteriously found on captured or killed Pakistani insurgents. We’ve also tracked insurgent used weapons to specific Pakistani Ordinance Factories.

I am betting the Chinese will have similar misgivings when the stuff they gives you inevitably ends up in the hands of jihadists attacking Chinese oil workers in Sudan or ends up being used in Xinjiang.

Umair bhai, this report is the tip of the iceberg. There’s a lot more behind the scenes. Though this is the first time the issue is being raised in public. Take it as a sign that patience is wearing thin and people are starting to openly talk about what they used to whisper before.

If that’s the case, why not accept the deal currently on the table. Make peace, open up the borders. Make them irrelevant so that it won’t matter to Kashmiris which side of the line they live on since they’ll have the same rights everywhere.

Why is it so important that a Pakistani flag must fly over Srinagar? Is it about peace and justice for Kashmir or is this about Pakistani territorial ambitions and grievances over “Muslim soil”?

If the Germans and the French could settle the Alsace-Lorraine (and their residents actually saw the German culture oppressed on the French side, including their language for decades after WWII – something even Kashmiris in India have not seen) and the Turks and the Greeks could settle up on the Aegean and Thrace, why is Kashmir such an intractable conflict?

-Remember that with Pakistan the stakes are even higher, a larger and nuclear armed Muslim nation. If Pakistan falls, Afghanistan will look like picnic and Johadis will be roaming around the world blowing up metropolitan cities with radio-active dispersion devices. – posted by Umairpk

So your point is?

Yes, we know the consequences of a failed Pakistani state. Pakistan is already a partially failed state. The West is living with the consequences of the Pakistani government being unable to solidly enforce its writ in a good fifth of the country.

And because we know the consequences, we are genuinely worried about the problem becoming worse. That’s why we want a stable Afghanistan. We don’t want Afghanistan to be a de-stabilizing force for Pakistan. It’s unfortunate the PA thinks that goal isn’t noble.

Pakistan would definitely like to see a stable Afghanistan and have a say in future political dispensation. It is upto the allies to give us that representation or keep us on the fence. But then why do you complain if Pakistan does its own thing? – umairpk

You are echoing what we hear from Pak officials. “Just the let the Taliban back in and it’ll all be okay.” Unfortunately that didn’t work out so well for the people in WTC 1 and WTC 2 on 9/11.

Seriously, what do Pakistanis expect? That the US will simply hand over Afghanistan on a a platter. The West is genuinely trying to foster democracy there. Though admittedly, it’s not an easy task. You can’t really teach them self-sufifficency by bossing them around. NATO has no intention to do so and even the Americans, who have no love for Karzai, would really like Afghans to take charge of their own affairs. That was the problem with the rigged election for example. If the US intervenes, it’s seen as picking the Afghan government. If it doesn’t intervene it’s seen as condoning fraud. What they really wanted was for Afghans to speak out about the election.

How then is it fair to expect the West to impose Pakistani interests on Afghanistan?…given that Afghanistan is not a US colony, despite what Pakistanis may think. You want better relations with Afghanistan? Build them yourselves. Nobody can do it for you. I’d say, cutting off the Haqqani network might get a lot of respect in Afghanistan, to start.

Keith
While Pakistan might have shown persistenyl failing symptoms, it still manages to come back from the brink. I would call it a resilient nation, and believe me our will is strong. we will build a better Pakistan.

Just want to share this press release by ISPR and read what CJSC Gen. Tariq Majeed has to say about Pakistan’s internal/external challenges, regional environment, unfolding events in Afgahnsitan.

Seriously we’d all have more respect for you and think of you as more intelligent if you weren’t such a Pak Army shill. Do you really need to post ISPR press releases? Would you think me bright if I started posting press releases from USCENTCOM’s public affairs page?
Are we supposed to be surprised that a Pakistani general is worried about growing Indian military might or that he thinks Pakistan is being pushed around?

That’s not news.

I am starting to doubt your level of intelligence (only 12 years olds post crap like press releases), the quality of Pakistani journalism (if the best you can find is an ISPR item) and the gullibility of Pakistani society (that they buy whatever the Army says like you do over here).

If that’s the case, why not accept the deal currently on the table. Make peace, open up the borders. Make them irrelevant so that it won’t matter to Kashmiris which side of the line they live on since they’ll have the same rights everywhere.

>> At this point, Kashmiris are saying that even if India builds road made of gold, it won’t make up for their brutality.

Why is it so important that a Pakistani flag must fly over Srinagar?

>> It need not be a Pakistani or Indian flag? How about a nation of kashmir flag?

Is it about peace and justice for Kashmir or is this about Pakistani territorial ambitions and grievances over “Muslim soil”?

>> We have no such ambitions. Pakistan did nothing as India overran junagarh, hyderabad, siachen, goa, sikkim, minicoy, nepali enclaves and bangladeshi enclaves. India has been swallowing territory not pakistan. We have only stood our ground for kashmir because we have a kinship with kashmiris.

If the Germans and the French could settle the Alsace-Lorraine (and their residents actually saw the German culture oppressed on the French side, including their language for decades after WWII – something even Kashmiris in India have not seen) and the Turks and the Greeks could settle up on the Aegean and Thrace, why is Kashmir such an intractable conflict?

>> In those conflicts, there was give-and-take. Pakistan has been much more flexible. India lives in the fantasy of “Kashmir is an integral part of India” even as kashmiris observe “black day” on India’s republic day. but Don’t listen to me. Read a Kashmiri blog of your choice.

An old story: Four warriors on horses were heading towards Delhi, a fisherman on his donkey joined them. A pedestrian asked the warriors where they were heading to? Before the warriors reply the fisherman said WE five warriors are going to Delhi.

Keith
The link i posted is not a mere press release, these are words spoken by CJSC Gen. Tariq Majeed yesterday while addressing the graduation of War course participants at the National Defense University Islamabad. Gen. Tariq has rejected any breaches in Pakistan’s nuclear command and control system, set the record straight re; proliferation, highlighted the growing imbalance in conventional power in the region, India’s military posturing, cold start doctrine etc. Also he said that Pakistan must be accepted as a nuclear power, given civilian nuclear deal.
Like I stated, the allies never consider Pakistan’s security requirements, Pakistan’s internal and external challenges are complex and we are not in this situation by choice.

MirzaUsman
“they see the world like a silent-film from the 1920s. India is dressed in all white with a white horse. Pakistan is dressed in all black with a black horse. The hero can do no wrong, the villain can do no good.

India’s illogical stance towards Pakistan has more to do with the previous millenium than the current one. This is tragic. If India can forget the previous 1000 years and stop its state-sponsored terrorism in kashmir, pakistan would become an exemplary neighbor.”

-Usman, I agree with you, India is the culprit, they meddled in Sri Lanka, always interfered in Bangladesh’s affairs, have disputes with China, with Pakistantheir relationsa re troubled as always. problem is, India has bigger ambitions all the time, but they are not capable of fulfiling those. For example, with a costly missile and nuclear arms race they thought India will become a regional power and subdue Pakistan. That did not happen, even if today they resolve the Kashmir dispute justly and forge good relations with Pakistan. I see no reason why Pakistan cannot have good relations with them.

“The link i posted is not a mere press release, these are words spoken by CJSC Gen. Tariq Majeed yesterday while addressing the graduation of War course participants at the National Defense University Islamabad. Gen. Tariq has rejected any breaches in Pakistan’s nuclear command and control system, set the record straight re; proliferation, highlighted the growing imbalance in conventional power in the region, India’s military posturing, cold start doctrine etc. Also he said that Pakistan must be accepted as a nuclear power, given civilian nuclear deal.” – Umair

Blah blah blah. If Gen. Petraeus had given the same speech, I’d discount it to. Generals like politicians rarely go off script. He says what he’s told by his PR staff to say. The venue does not matter.

He’s selling Pakistan. That’s his job. Good on him for doing it. Doesn’t take away an announce of concern that the Allies have. For example, “setting the record straight on proliferation.” Hahaha. Let the IAEA interview AQ Khan and then the record will be set straight on proliferation. I highly doubt even the CJCS is can and will speak truthfully to matters like this.

If you can’t distinguish between PR speaking points and genuine statements, you need to get back to a classroom and pick up some critical reading skills.

“Like I stated, the allies never consider Pakistan’s security requirements, Pakistan’s internal and external challenges are complex and we are not in this situation by choice.”

Is Pakistan willing to openly publish what its security interests are in Pakistan and actively detail their dealings with the Taliban?….I thought so.

How is the West supposed to know what you want, when you say you don’t like the Taliban but then we find evidence that the PA is co-operating with them? Your allies can’t be held responsible for what they don’t know.

“At this point, Kashmiris are saying that even if India builds road made of gold, it won’t make up for their brutality.”

Are you speaking for all Kashmiris including the Hindu Pandits and the Buddhist Ladhakis, or is it only voices of the Muslims in the Valley that count?

Any solution, even one, brokered by the international community, has to undoubtedly address the concerns of all Kashmiris, that includes the minority populations and Kashmiris on the Pakistani side as well.

“It need not be a Pakistani or Indian flag? How about a nation of kashmir flag?”

Fair enough. Has Pakistan changed its stance? During recent negotiations, nowhere has independence for Azad Kashmir been suggested. Talk has only been about open borders. Would Pakistan offer to let its portion go if India was to offer a similar concession?

“We have no such ambitions. Pakistan did nothing as India overran junagarh, hyderabad, siachen, goa, sikkim, minicoy, nepali enclaves and bangladeshi enclaves. India has been swallowing territory not pakistan.”

There’s a certain Pathan in your history that would vehemently disagree that Pakistan did/does not have territorial ambitions of its own.

The reality though is that the Europeans left a mess. The hodge-podge of enclaves, exclaves, city states, etc. would have been absolutely unsustainable. It would created a mess of non-contiguous states, which would not have been nation states in any real sense of the term.

Stability in that case required some consolidation. It’s a good thing that northern India coalesced into Pakistan and the rest into modern day India.

On this point, I think what bothers Pakistanis is that the fragementation they thought would happen didn’t. India was supposed to be the hodge-podge which would have left Muslim Pakistan as the dominant state on the sub-continent. The Indians consolidated, and for the all the complaints, the Muslims who lived under the likes of the Nizam, integrated into India reasonably well. Without India falling apart, Pakistan became a second tier nation in its own region. I think it bothers Pakistanis that the pre-eminence Jinnah promised them hasn’t come to pass and is more India’s bailiwick today.

But setting history aside, WHAT DOES ANY OF THIS HAVE TO DO WITH AFGHANISTAN?

“At this point, Kashmiris are saying that even if India builds road made of gold, it won’t make up for their brutality.”

Are you speaking for all Kashmiris including the Hindu Pandits and the Buddhist Ladhakis, or is it only voices of the Muslims in the Valley that count?

Any solution, even one, brokered by the international community, has to undoubtedly address the concerns of all Kashmiris, that includes the minority populations and Kashmiris on the Pakistani side as well.

“It need not be a Pakistani or Indian flag? How about a nation of kashmir flag?”

Fair enough. Has Pakistan changed its stance? During recent negotiations, nowhere has independence for Azad Kashmir been suggested. Talk has only been about open borders. Would Pakistan offer to let its portion go if India was to offer a similar concession?

“We have no such ambitions. Pakistan did nothing as India overran junagarh, hyderabad, siachen, goa, sikkim, minicoy, nepali enclaves and bangladeshi enclaves. India has been swallowing territory not pakistan.”

There’s a certain Pathan in your history that would vehemently disagree that Pakistan did/does not have territorial ambitions of its own.

The reality though is that the Europeans left a mess. The hodge-podge of enclaves, exclaves, city states, etc. would have been absolutely unsustainable. It would created a mess of non-contiguous states, which would not have been nation states in any real sense of the term.

Stability in that case required some consolidation. It’s a good thing that northern India coalesced into Pakistan and the rest into modern day India.

On this point, I think what bothers Pakistanis is that the fragementation they thought would happen didn’t. India was supposed to be the hodge-podge which would have left Muslim Pakistan as the dominant state on the sub-continent. The Indians consolidated, and for the all the complaints, the Muslims who lived under the likes of the Nizam, integrated into India reasonably well. Without India falling apart, Pakistan became a second tier nation in its own region. I think it bothers Pakistanis that the pre-eminence Jinnah promised them hasn’t come to pass and is more India’s bailiwick today.

But setting history aside, WHAT DOES ANY OF THIS HAVE TO DO WITH AFGHANISTAN?

There’s a certain Pathan in your history that would vehemently disagree that Pakistan did/does not have territorial ambitions of its own.

>> “keith”, Which pathan would that be? Would it be one of pakistan’s head of states? Ayub Khan, Yahya Khan, Zafarullah Khan, Liaqat Ali Khan, Feroz Khan

The reality though is that the Europeans left a mess.

>> Actually the Europeans consolidated Islamic counquests of south asia, gift-wrapped it, put it on silver platter and gave you modern-day republic of india. If anything, you should show some gratitude.

The hodge-podge of enclaves, exclaves, city states, etc. would have been absolutely unsustainable. It would created a mess of non-contiguous states, which would not have been nation states in any real sense of the term.

Stability in that case required some consolidation.

>> I love these euphemisms for land-grabbing. It’s rather enjoyable how every indian unprovoked misdeed is sugar-coated, dismissed or justified.

It’s a good thing that northern India coalesced into Pakistan and the rest into modern day India.

On this point, I think what bothers Pakistanis is that the fragementation they thought would happen didn’t.

>> This is untrue.

India was supposed to be the hodge-podge which would have left Muslim Pakistan as the dominant state on the sub-continent. The Indians consolidated,

and for the all the complaints, the Muslims who lived under the likes of the Nizam, integrated into India reasonably well. Without India falling apart, Pakistan became a second tier nation in its own region. I think it bothers Pakistanis that the pre-eminence Jinnah promised them hasn’t come to pass and is more India’s bailiwick today.

The conventional wisdom in India is that Pakistan is the aggressor in South Asia. Pakistan hardly has a perfect record but Indians should not throw stones before reviewing their own history. Even if Indo-Pakistan relationship is set aside for a moment as one of peculiar nature and even if Pakistan is presumed to be responsible for all the wicked behaviour, the question arises why do other countries of the region find it so difficult to forge a closer relationship with India? Why is it that India has failed to evoke trust and confidence among its neighbours to make any worthwhile collaboration impossible, including Saarc? Isn’t it time for hostilities to give way to a congenial environment among South Asian neighbours too?

•India swallowed Junagarh on the basis of majority hindu against the wishes of its nawab who had acceeded to Pakistan.
•India swallowed Hyderabad on the basis of majority hindu against the wishes of its nizam
•India swallowed Kashmir on the basis of the maharaja ‘wishes’ irrespective of the muslim majority’s wishes. The instrument of ascension was claimed to be “lost”.
•India swallowed the princely state of Bantva-Manavadar and it 26 muslim villages.
•India invaded and absorbed Goa 4,000 Portugese security with a force of 30,000 on the basis of a foreign presence on “republic of India’s” land.
•India annexed Sikkhim by formenting a coup against the Buddhist king manipulating the grievances of his subjects. The prime minister that supported India was labelled a traitor by his own people. 5000 Indian soldiers stormed a force of 243. 1 nineteen year old palace guard was killed. Sikkhim the tiny country was no more.
•India withheld Pakistan’s share of funds and resources from the very beginning of its birth. The newborn nation financed its treasury with donated silverware from citizens and funds from the Nizam of Hyderabad.
•India withheld 297 trainloads of supplies allocated to Pakistan. (3 trainloads were sent with scrap).
•India has always supported “Baluchistan liberation army” and related terror outfits.
•India rampaged through the sacred sikh golden temple, killed sikh leaders and humiliated its followers.
•India used artillery against its own Sikh people in the religious residential area of Amristar
•Indian police and para-military stood by idly as 3000+ Sikhs were murdered during the Sikh Riots.
•India government stood by idly as the destruction of Babri Masjid took place
•Indian state government of Gujrat headed by Modi committed a state-sponsored pogrom in gujrat killing 2000+ Muslims and displacing 100,000.
•India sent their military to sri lanka and massacred both the Sinhalese and the Tamils in Velvettiturai and Trincomalee
•India armed and supported Mukhti Bahini even before the situation in East Pakistan had become violent
•India invaded Siachen Glacier
•India started the nuclear arms race in 1974
•India swallowed Minicoy Islands (forgotten by the British) without any negotiation with the other dominion (pakistan)
•India current concerns for Afghanistan are so genuine that it supported the illegal, immoral and brutal Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
•India supported the Northern Alliance against the Pashtuns majority but blames Pakistan for interference
•India started the nuclear provocation by testing nuclear weapons on Pakistan’s border
•India has slaughtered 100,000 civilians in Kashmir
•India financed anti-Pakistan Northern Alliance
•India continues to stall resolutions with Bangladesh over river boundaries, hundres of enclaves.
•India border forces have killed hundreds of Bangladeshi border guards.
•India continues to fence the disputed borders with Bangladesh regardless of the Bangladeshi protests.
•India maintains contested boundary sections with Nepal including 400 sq. km over the Kalapani River.
•India continues to stall negotiations on disputed territory in Sir Creek with Pakistan
•India continues to support the Dalai Lama and instigate the Chinese
•Indians government warned: “If the Chinese will not vacate the areas occupied by her, India will have to repeat wat she did in Goa. She will certainly drive out the Chinese forces.” India initiated the Forward Policy setting up checkpoints north of the McMahon line.
•India has had a war with China due its inflexibility with border territories inherited from the British Raj.
•India maintains an army 0f 700,000 soldiers in Kashmir (50% of its total army and greater than the entire Army of neighboring Pakistan) against the civilian population of that small state which numbers less than 4 million people. ?even this horrifying imbalance of 1 soldier for every 6 Kashmiris (majority of whom are old men, women and children) has failed to suppress the freedom movement. Kashmir is under direct President’s rule since 1990, after the state legislature was dissolved (the federally appointed governor had admitted that the Kashmiri legislature had a history of rigged elections). The nature of State-sponsored terrorism is exemplified by such unbelievable laws as “The Armed Forces (J&K) Special Powers Bill (1990), which have been passed by the parliament of world’s largest “democracy”. This Bill grants authorization to members of Indian Security Forces to “fire upon or otherwise use force, even to the causing of death against any person” without fire orders. 130,000 people have been brutally murdered by the Indian Security Forces in the past 20 years and thousands more have been intimidated and terrorized. Pakistanis believe this is state-sponsored terrorism. The Indian security forces have flouted all norms of civilized conduct. Kashmiri youths have been murdered in cold blood in fake encounters and Kashmiri women of all ages were and are gang-raped in the prescence of their families. International human rights organizations and the international press has been refused entry into the State by the Indian government. They can only visit the ?These human rights organization like Amnesty International and Asia Watch constantly report of indescribably inhumane treatment meted out to Kashmiris in government run torture cells and elsewhere. ?While the world has responded to the Bosnia and Kuwait, it has so far failed to act to stop an even greater problem of abuse of human rights and mass genocide of Kashmiris by an invading army. It seems that commercial interests have taken precedence over the dignity of human life.
•India arrested the PRIME MINISTER of Kashmir in 1953
•India rejected UN proposals to keep 16000 troops until plebiscite is held.
•Indian forces have raped 9900 women in Kashmir
•India imposed an economic blockade on land-locked Nepal in 1989
•India overtly and covertly supported the insurgency against the state by LTTE, a nationalist Tamil group in the northern Jaffna region of this small island country of Sri Lanka, which kept it politically and economically destabilised for decades
•India interferes with Nepals internal affairs much to the latter’s discontent
•India massacred peaceful Kashmiri protests in Gowkadal, Maisuma and Bijbehara
•Indian Armed Forces are allowed to arrest non-violent protesters and are slapping them 2 years imprisonment under PSA laws
•India supported Shanti Bahini insurgency in the Chittagong Hill Tracts according to Bangladesh
•Indian encroached on Nepali lands and committed atrocities along the border villages of western district of Dang. These actions resulted in the displacement of more than 6000 people from their homes. Cases of rape and disappearance have been reported. This is not the first time the IBSF has encroached on Nepali territory and committed atrocities: from Jhapa in the east all the way to Darchula in the west (where the Indian military has even set up a permanent base), the pattern of border encroachment is repeated, with forceful displacement, shifting of border markers and appropriation of territory. India has already appropriated some 59,970 hectares of Nepali territory at 54 points in 21 districts. All these cases are well documented, but India has not shown any sign of taking responsibility of its excesses in a foreign land. This is not the only example of India%u2019s interference in Nepal’s sovereignty. Recently the Indian Ambassador to Nepal, Mr. Sood, interfered in the choice of Nepal’s Commander-in-Chief. By doing so, he has made it clear that Nepalese right to choose their government remains a right as long as their choice does not contradict with Indias’ vested interest in Nepal.
•In 1971, Elements of the Indian Army looted Bangladesh while the high command let it happen and may have benefited from the loot.
•India has banned Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International from Kashmir over 20 years. Recently to AI personnel were allowed into Kashmir. They are Indians! Their first course of action was to call Kashmir an integral part of India (a fact disputed by almost all countries in the world… except India).
•Indian governments have refused to sign nuclear testing and nonproliferation agreements — accelerating a nuclear arms race in South Asia. (India’s second nuclear tests in 1998 led to Pakistan’s decision to detonate its own nuclear weapons.)
•In 2008, India single-handedly foiled the last Doha round of global trade talks, an effort to nail together a global deal that almost nobody loved, but one that would have benefited developing countries most.”I reject everything,” declared Kamal Nath, then the Indian commerce and industry minister, after grueling days and sleepless nights of negotiations in Geneva in the summer of 2008.
•India also regularly refuses visas for international rights advocates. In 2003, India denied a visa to the head of Amnesty International, Irene Khan. Although no official reason was given, it was likely a punishment for Amnesty’s critical stance on the government’s handling of Hindu attacks that killed as many as 2,000 Muslims in Gujarat the previous year. Most recently, a delegation from the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom, a congressionally mandated body, was denied Indian visas. In the past, the commission had called attention to attacks on both Muslims and Christians in India.

“Which pathan would that be? Would it be one of pakistan’s head of states? Ayub Khan, Yahya Khan, Zafarullah Khan, Liaqat Ali Khan, Feroz Khan”

How about Frontier Gandhi? Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan

“Actually the Europeans consolidated Islamic counquests of south asia, gift-wrapped it, put it on silver platter and gave you modern-day republic of india. If anything, you should show some gratitude. ”

Not being Indian, I can’t be particularly grateful or ungrateful for your history.

But I stand by my assertion that the sub-continent is better off with a handful of states of contiguous states than a few dozen independent ones or a bunch of exclaves with nothing in common but religion. We all know how well that worked out for Bengalis, when they had nothing in common but religion, with the rest of Pakistan.

“I love these euphemisms for land-grabbing. It’s rather enjoyable how every indian unprovoked misdeed is sugar-coated, dismissed or justified. ”

It’s not a euphemism. Nor am I trying to sugar coat reality. Whatever the messy business of the past, would you rather have the sub-continent you have today or would you rather have the place look like post-colonial Africa?

Yep. Just like Pakistan consolidated the Frontier, the Tribal Areas (and depending on the debate Balochistan as well). I would not consider that a bad thing (exception being the Forward policy that brought India directly into conflict with China). It created a contiguous Pakistani state and a contingous India and Bangladesh as well.

…and he started off by invading neighbouring Kashmir (which if you recall was left as an independent state by the British when they left), bringing India directly into conflict.

Really though, the guy must have been delusional to think that after all that happened at partition, with a messy process that left millions dead in one of the bloodies spectacles of all time, that the Indians would harbour good will towards him.

Ultimately though, I think it was the invasion of Kashmir that pretty much cemented the view that Indians (particularly the elites) had, of him and Pakistan.

If there was no Kashmir, I think history would have played out differently and India would probably have by and large ignored Pakistan. With Pakistan doing the same thing as it gravitated more towards the Middle East. Sadly Kashmir brought these nations into conflict.

But again I ask, “WHAT DOES ANY OF THIS HAVE TO DO WITH AFGHANISTAN AND PAKISTANI CO-OPERATION WITH THE TALIBAN?

^ It’s too bad Myra and the gang have all but disappeared from these parts. Moderation has really gone downhill in these threads. The spam just takes things off topic and every thread just devolves into an Indo-Pak fight on some historical grievances.

Come on Myra, come back, clamp down on the trolls, and let’s get some rousing discussions like the good ‘ol days!

Pakistan’s core problem since partition, for the last 60 years as been the Punjabi Islamic Raj of Pakistan.

The Punjabi’s in Pak have not allowed Pakistan to become a properly managed, fully integrated, open society that would be capable of thriving.

Instead the Punjabi’s have selfishly drove the rest of Pakistani’s through the mud, to chase their own dreams of Islamic conquest of India and could not do that, so settled for wars with India, could not win those and finally settled on low-level wars with India, via proxy army Islamic Terrorism.

Within the context of these low level wars, Pakistan has managed to radicalize its own people, as well as radicalize Kashmiri’s and create many spin-off terrorist groups that are beginning to harm the U.S., Europe and the world over.

In Pakistani’s persuit of revenge against India for defending itself against Pakistani terrorism and saving millions from the 1971 Genocide, the PA overstretched itself and India successfully dismembered East Pakistan and liberated the Bengali’s from the cruel facist Punjabi rule.

It is because of this, the PA felt its own existence threatened and needed to politically entrench itself so deeply in the psyche of Pakistani’s from childhood, that mass propaganda through the madrasa system, education, almost every facet of Pakistani identity was forged with Anti-india sentiment and hatred of India in every way possible.

Until today, the Pakistani Army business model for economic survival is to do so in a parasitic manner. To run this clever business model, the PA start the fires of terrorism through its agencies and nefarious means, then begs for the weapons and money to fight those same fires that they started, but cannot accept the blame for starting those fires and casually scapegoat India or the U.S. for all such problems. Having no great source of income, Pakistan resourts to proliferating nuclear technology and proliferating terrorism (IT=Islamic Terrorism).

Average pakistani’s are caught in the crossfire as psychological victims of this propaganda and are so conditioned that they have blind rage at anything that is unPakistani and blind acceptance at anything that is Islamic. Paks do not like: Indians, Afghans, Americans, but do like anybody that does not like India or the U.S. for whatever reason.

In trying to put out its own fires, Pakistan has become bankrupt, begging from the IMF and using such funds to buy more weapons against India, as well as upgrade its nuclear program to make more bxmbs, all the while its people are starving, with uncertain futures, they live in a state of fear over their lives.

Pakistan hopes are that with any one of the fires it has started, hopefully one of these troubles that it created will be its ticket out of its global troubles and it tries to leverage these fires against its neighbours and allies to get out of its hole.

The Punjabi Raj of Pakistan has brought nothing redeeming for Pakistani’s hopes and futures, except cricket and a stolen nuclear program and an Army with an overbloated ego and opinion of its abilities. Since the Punjabi’s cannot subjugate India or Afghanistan, its Punjabi’s are resorting to subjugate those who are weaker and and easier to reach, those being the minorities being butchered and killed out of existence in the quest for a more “pure” Pakistan.

The double dealing games, excuses, financial extortion, financial begging, shame avoidance, lying, blind rage and deranged psychological mindset continue to destroy and plunder Pakistan and its image abroad as Pakistani linked terrorists continue to be created from Pakistan, without hindrance from the “authority” there.

Just recently, credible sources from the UK have suggested that the ISI, has been helping the same Taliban that has been working against and causing harm to NATO forces in Afghanistan, the same NATO alliance members who are funding the Pakistani Army with financial and military aid with U.S. taxpayer dollars, which help to fund Pak Agencies.

Mirzusman: “The conventional wisdom in India is that Pakistan is the aggressor in South Asia. Pakistan hardly has a perfect record but Indians should not throw stones before reviewing their own history.” and blah.. blah..

This simply shows emptiness. There is nothing on hand to counter what the article says – “Pakistan’s ISI has been feeding the terrorist networks and the Taliban,” which is known well to everyone already.

There is nothing wrong in admitting the truth. Nothing will happen to Pakistani citizens. Instead, you guys launch into the same routine of useless counter claims and concocted list of lies that is sickening to everyone. What exactly is your point about ISI’s proven record of involvment with the Taliban? If you do not agree, provide counter-evidence – something that is not fabricated in Pakistan. Quote a reliable international reference that says otherwise. ISI’s duplicity has been mentioned in different international publications. Everything in Pakistan does not have to be perfect.

Everything in Pakistan does not have to be perfect. – Posted by KPSingh01

I am not trying to troll here. I genuinely want an answer to this one. Can a Pakistani poster address this point for me? What is the obssession with showing how bad India is?

To me that just shows how insecure you are about your own country. Over here, Canadians do it all the time, about the US. And I absolutely hate that kind of behaviour. I remind my fellow-Canadians about this same principle: If you have to put down others, it means you have nothing to brag about yourself.

You don’t see Indians posting mile long paragraphs about how bad Pakistan is. It really reveals an inferiority complex when you do that. So what’s up with that kind of behaviour? How about bragging about what Pakistan can do, instead of what India can’t?

Mirza-Umair Inc. has emerged. This is a mutual agreement, non-profit organization which is meant as non-profit alliance. Their theme is “Pakistan is great!” and can do no wrong.

They bring in unique skills, Mirza is a spin doctor who can talk with froth coming over the edge of his mouth, explaining every Indian move in context of past 1000 yrs. He seems still in pain after ruled by others… but little does he know that the free Pakistan is still ruled by others and formal creation of Pakistan in 1947 did not do any good. So he cites history as panacea and thinks people around him live in same pain. May be Indian pain is numbed by mixed history of last 60yrs—overall forward looking. Surviving is not a question asked by Indians, thriving is. It is just that some nuisance makers check in Taj Hotel in India without paying and start killing innocents. It is the Punjab terrorism in India that Indians blame on Pakistan.

Umair, 2nd partner of the alliance, is an expert on post-1947, especially the cold war. He tries to bleach wash Pakistani dirty linen with “cold-war” brand of washing detergent. Detergent is too old for and dirt is too thick. Dirty linen is not clean even after washing; it just needs a new detergent. Till then let us call it “dirty”.

Umair thinks that India has “duped Bangladeshis” into separating from Pakistan for which “Bangladesh regrets” till date. Perhaps he is judging this from rising water levels in the Bay of Bengal, which he thinks is due to the tears of separation of Bangladesh from Pakistan. I think there is a small chance that those tears are cries of Bagladesh for the genocide by Pakistan.

Certainly commonalities exist between Mirza and Umair—-brothers in pain. Both claim to worry about Kashmir. Both try to depict if Pakistan reputation is spoiled by India. Hmmmm…such fragile reputation.

@ “I genuinely want an answer to this one. Can a Pakistani poster address this point for me? What is the obssession with showing how bad India is?”

It’s the same belligerant finger-pointing attitude, victimhood mentality & utter lack of introspection which we have seen from Pakistanis time and again. When confronted with the genocides, atrocities & human right violations commited by their pious army against the bengalis, baluchis, pashtuns, ahmadiyas, minorities etc, they simply point towards India’s “violations” in Kashmir, Israel’s in Palestine, US’s in Iraq & the “plight” of muslims in western countries. When confronted with the duplicitous & slimy nature of their ISI, they simply point towards the activities of the CIA, RAW, MI5, Mossad etc. When confronted with the reality that Pakistan is imploding & bound to fail unless corrective measures are taken soon, they simply point to India’s poverty, health care issues etc & boast of “existing” despite everything. When confronted with the record of their achievements as a nation (or lack thereof), they start thumping on their (stolen) nuclear chest & openly threaten to go rogue. It’s just a never ending sequence, repeated over & over.

The brother is talking about bangladesh being duped by the 25 year friendship treaty followed by a healthy dose of big-neighbor hegemony.

Umair, talking with these hawks is an exercise in futility. They think they have a monopoly on intellect, knowledge, independent sources and morality etc.

——————————
It is just that some nuisance makers check in Taj Hotel in India without paying and start killing innocents.
——————————-

>> what is with you people and money? It’s sickening. Those murderers kill hundreds of innocent people and you are worried about the hotel bill? Do Indian soldiers pay a municipal tax before killing/raping kashmiris in fake encounters?

In the past, another Indian whitewashed operation blue star because their per capita income had increased since that time….

KPsingh,
if you are GENUINELY interested in positive aspects of Paksitan (which we all know you are not) visit pakpositive.com

Nobody here is declaring pak is an emerging super-power with a per capita income higher than the republic of congo. We are just responding to your self-congratulating, pak-bashing propaganda.

My list of Indian aggression is totally relevant. It was a resonse to the absurd allegation that Pakistan is expansionist. It was to show not that India is the villain in black or paksitan is the hero in white but to demonstrate the situation and the world at large is very much gray. This apparently made every one unhappy and I apologize for the reality check.

@”——————————
It is just that some nuisance makers check in Taj Hotel in India without paying and start killing innocents.
——————————-

>> what is with you people and money? It’s sickening. Those murderers kill hundreds of innocent people and you are worried about the hotel bill?”

Rajeev,

Your fault! Your kind of satire is bit too much for simpletons. When someone can’t break spam into paragraphs and bulleted points, you should understand whom you are dealing with. And no, we’re not talking about context yet.

While Pakistan might have shown persistenyl failing symptoms, it still manages to come back from the brink. I would call it a resilient nation, and believe me our will is strong. we will build a better Pakistan.

>> Inch’allah. That’s for real bro. No matter how much we complain, Pakistan is home. I’d lay down my life without hesitation to defend the “worlds most dangerous country” lol. On the kashmiri blogs, the advice the brothers from IOK give is always the same: “The best way to help Kashmir is to make pakistan ever stronger”.

Due to heavy paki propaganda (lies)…even westerners sometimes
assume India and Pakistan have been “fighting”.

It has been pak unilateral aggression all along.. If you count 1,2,3,….
1971 comes after 1965..!! India was demoralized after china attacked in 1962,
paks launched war barely 3 yrs later..

Indian security establishment realized paks desire no peace..

Without going to details, Kashmir has always about secular ideology of Indian nation.
While paks after exterminating their Hindu minority , now indulging in killing
Muslim minorities, India is hosting 170 m Muslims.

Mirza claims he is keeping “Pakistan” strong?
How??? By begging and collecting ransom mone in
the WoT??!
Without beggary, the “strong” nation will collapse in
no time…it is being floated by American tax payers.

@Rajeev
“Ignoring what u ignored, I noticed we both agree that Pakistani nationals killed innocents.”

Oh yeah, he whole heartedly agrees. He has, in fact, whined on his own blog about Pakistani government not handing over Mumbai perpetrator to India. But I’ve no reason to believe that he would not have posted venom against CIA-RAW-MOSSAD before Rehman Malik publicly accepted the truth and left him no choice. But he won’t admit it here in front of you propagandists, will he?

BTW, some article on his blog reads “India is planning on building more nuclear reactors in the NEXT century…” and my head took a spin for twice. Hello? Its only 2010. But then, its all about “truth not propaganda” mind you sir. The so called “article” is an exact copy of an article published in 1995. Now who has time to even read what your are publishing (er stealing w/o giving credit) truth not propaganda. Large part of that same article is also copied out-and-out from an article posted in 1986 only. And if my memory serves me right, “shining standard of golden journalism” was the phrase this hazrat used for wikipedia.

Just an FYI, http://www.copyscape.com/ is a great tool for checking plagiarism. What’s the point when some are spending time and posting original thoughts (biased or neutral) while responding to others’ stolen material.

Moreover, contrary to Pakular belief, not everybody is a propagandist here, people spend time on this blog because they care about the stability of the region.

Umairpk: “While Pakistan might have shown persistenyl failing symptoms, it still manages to come back from the brink. I would call it a resilient nation, and believe me our will is strong. we will build a better Pakistan”

Cockroaches and mosquitoes have the same capability. No matter how much one swats them, they hang around. Something not to be proud of. It is like the local thief priding himself that no matter how much he has been whacked, he is still menacing around. Thieves cannot last long. Ultimately they end up dead or in jail permanently.

MirzaUsman: “Inch’allah.”

That’s blasphemous isn’t it? Now you are going to be in trouble for defaming the height of the all mighty. Punjabi Taliban brigade are cleaning up their gun barrels specially for you. Wear a burqa or something to hide for now. Safety is important. If they blow you up, we cannot have laughter here. So please hide for sometime.

“That’s for real bro. No matter how much we complain, Pakistan is home. I’d lay down my life without hesitation to defend the “worlds most dangerous country” lol.”

Even while laughing out loud, you are telling the truth.
That’s an amazing quality.

“On the kashmiri blogs, the advice the brothers from IOK give is always the same: “The best way to help Kashmir is to make pakistan ever stronger”.”

True. That is why your ISI is building Jihadi factories all around, funding them and training them. Now they want Afghanistan all to themselves too so that they can manufacture more suicide bombers and Jihadi clones.

The best way to help Kashmir is to stay out of it. If your brainwashed militant brothers do not come to Kashmir, there will be peace. Kashmir was relatively peaceful once Musharraf shut down the camps in Azad Kashmir and once Pakistani army was cornered in South Waziristan. This only means one thing – if your Jihadi militants are kept busy elsewhere, peace will prevail in other parts of the sub-continent. So will you tell them to stay home and burn their beards instead? Engaging India using proxy elements has already burnt Pakistan. Still there is no realization that the fire you set for others is beginning to burn your rear end because you are sitting on the lid that is serving as a cover to hide it from the Americans.

Re: Kashmiris speaking for themselves – so you, in principle, agree that its not the core issue between India and Pakistan? If that’s the case, what is deterring the Indo-Pak friendship?

>> Seth, this is why I don’t respond to you unless you flatter me. Why should relax-singh be the spokesperson for kashmiris? what does this have to do with the kashmiri injustice? It’s two different things. Please no more of this type of silliness.

@”A man with your obsession for independently doucmented sources is implying there are no violations?”
Posted by mirzausman

If by “A man with your obsession for independently doucmented sources” you mean, a guy who doesen’t buy the fiction, lies & distortions, sold by guys like you but rather sticks to facts, you’re absolutely right about me. No, I’m not implying that there are no violations but I’m stating that the violations are nowhere near what guys like you would have others believe. You Pakistanis talk as if everday an Indian soldier wakes up in Kashmir, he goes out & kills 2 dozen kashmiri children & rapes half a dozen kashmiri girls even before he has his morning cofee. And while we’re talking about violations, why don’t we ever hear a peep from you guys about the murders & rapes of kashmiris, conducted by the terrorists from your country, over the years? Talk about hypocricy!
Again, I accept that violations have occured in J&K and I demand that every incident of such violation be thoroughly investigated & the culprits be brought to justice, no matter who they are, officers of the Indian army or a Pakistani terrorists. Now, are you willing to own up to the sins of your army & the fact that it has the blood of countless innocent Indian civilians on it’s hands? Do you have the spine to accept that or are you going to dodge the subject?

@ “what is with you people and money? It’s sickening”

It’s not that we bring up the matter of money but it’s rather your insecurity, complex & ultra-sensitivity as a Pakistani that you seem to misinterpret what we mean & give it a material twist. It’s sort of a “have/have not” complex. For instance, I told you on another forum that sikhs have moved on from 1984 & today the sikh community is one of the most prosperous communities in India. You made it out to be as an issue of money whereas I was merely pointing at one of the most important macro indicators of happiness of any particular group of people, be it a country or a community within a country. There’s a direct corelation between economic prosperity & happiness/peace & that’s the reason why there’s generally more happiness/peace amongst people liivng in more prosperous countries than the one’s who aren’t prosperous.

@ “While Pakistan might have shown persistenyl failing symptoms, it still manages to come back from the brink”

I’ve heard this from many Pakistanis but for once I’d like to know, exactly what is it supposed to mean? Should Pakistan be given a special award for “existing”? Yes, you exist but so does Somalia, Sudan & a bunch of other african countries where unfortunately, the quality of life for humans is much worse than it is for animals in many countries. At the end of the day, it’s the quality of life that matters & looking at the various social & economic indicators for Pakistan, there’s absolutely no doubt that the quality of life is detiorating quite rapidly. If, you guys consider that as an achievement, accept my congratulations.

A/ Can you condemn killing of innocent Kashmiris during the Tribal Invasion sponsored by Pakistan in 1947. Also can you condemn rapes, kidnapping of Kashmiri women and girls, and looting of my homeland – Kashmir, which was done in name of Jihad in 1947/8

B/ Can you also condemn Killings and imprisonment of people of Azad Kashmir at the hands of Pakistan during the Poonch rebellion in mid 1950s. Unlike militants in the Valley, these people did not have training, arms or money from secret agency of enemy country, they were simply asking for their democratic rights.

C/ Can you also condemn arrest and inhuman torture inflicted upon people of Azad Kashmir by Pakistan during Ganga Hijacking investigations. Even reading of those atrocities could put Nazi cruelties to shame.

D/ Can you condemn rapes and other human rights violations which still take place along the LOC on the Pakistani side of the divide, which people do not report due to stigma and repercussions; and no human rights organisation on the Pakistani side of the divide has courage to speak about them?

E/ Can you condemn denial of fundamental rights to people of Pakistani Administered Kashmir for decades; and looting and plunder of our resources?

F/Can you condemn denial of fundamental rights to people of Gilgit Baltistan – they were ruled by draconian laws with no accountability for decades?

G/Can you condemn annexation of Gilgit Baltistan by Pakistan, while pretending to be Muslim brother and friend of people of Jammu and Kashmir? Pakistani establishment has hidden their colonial designs under the cover of Islam, which is shameful.

H/ Can you condemn demolition of seven mosques on Murree Road in Rawalpindi, where unlike the Babri Mosque, were used by Muslims for daily prayers and teaching of Quran? It was done by the Musharaf government in order to make this route safe for the Americans travelling to Islamabad.

I/ Can you condemn killing of 83 innocent madrassa children in Wana, which Pakistan claimed to have bombed; and which resulted in more than 300 people taking oath Quran that they will take revenge of this unjustified massacre of innocent children; and commit suicide bombing if necessary. The suicide bombing in Pakistan started after this event.

J/ Can you condemn killing of hundreds of innocent children in the Red Mosque and Jamia Hafsa, in which illegal chemical called White Phosphorous was also used by Pakistani commandos?

K/ Can you condemn killing of innocent people by Pakistani regular forces and jet fighters in SWAT, parts of Pakhtoon Khawa and in FATA?

L/ People rightly demand that India should allow international human rights organisations to go to Kashmir to investigate the abuses; but have you made a similar demand for the areas of SWAT, parts of Pakhtoon Khawa and FATA, where even Pakistani civilians and media people are not allowed to see what Pakistani army is doing there? Or you want to turn a blind eye to all this because the culprits are fellow Muslims?

M/ And if your conscience allow you, also do condemn killing and rapes committed by Pakistan army, (which now many Pakistanis have acknowledged and some officials apologised for) in East Pakistan during 1970/71.

Who made punjabis at ISI spokesmen for Kashmiris???
9. I know for sure that a person like you will discard what I have written as propaganda, but I have written it for some sane souls who might benefit from the information provided.
Wassalam
Dr Shabir Choudhry
http://drshabirchoudhry.blogspot.com/

Keith:
“I genuinely want an answer to this one. Can a Pakistani poster address this point for me? What is the obssession with showing how bad India is? ”

-Canada is a free and independent nation, its citizens may express their views and have a right to it. Now i understand you are among that lot in Canada who side with the hypocrite conservative Stevie Harper good for nothing. Steve ruined Canada’s reputation by siding with Bush. And tell me did US ever invade Canada? thrust war upon you? Did you loose a large chunk of your territory or did US ever try to incite civil war in Canada no.

With India, Pakistan has disputes, we are not in good terms, we have wars and a long history of mistrust. India poses a long-term strategic threat to Pakistan. One has to be realistic, bulk of Indian Army divisions are facing towards Pakistan’s border. Right now their intention might not be to attack Pakistan, but their capability is in place. Pakistan has to all the time keep itself ready for a befitting reply to strike back in case India’s intention changes at any moment. Do you remember in 1998 when they detonanted nuclear devices in Pokhran what Indian defense minister George Fernandes stated in terms teaching a lesson to Pakistan. Pakistan summoned its atmonic energy commission and the nuclear scientists assured the government to carry out nuclear tests within 72 hours when orders are issued. And that stunned and humbled the Indians ever since.

Keith you have changed the discussion, the point here is why does the ISI support Taliban or keeps relations with them? Let me assure you there will be less and less leverage you will enjoy with Pakistan moving forward. If policy changes are not made, you will loose Pakistan as an ally. And believe me that will be the best thing to happen to Pakistan. That will act as a spur for our civilian and military leadership to look for more different sustainable and long-term strategic alliances of value. With Iran for example, Iran-Pakistan cooperation in energy sector, more closer collaboration with China, and Russia, Arab states Syria, most importantly Turkey. No one can deny the special relationship between Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, Gulf states.

Come on go ahead! Do it. Go for Pakistan’s diplomatic isolation and cut all economic assistance, cease all defense cooperation and intelligence sharing. Lets see how far you go. Pakistan has suffered more being an ally of the west, lets try it otherwise. And let me assure this is an independent soverign country and will not allow access to any nuclear scientist by IAEA. Infact we are free to cooperate with any other nation including Iran on ‘peaceful uses of Atmoic energy’ If you know what I mean. If Israel can have nukes why not Iran.

As for the trash all Idiots have posted, I do not see it worthy of replying too.

Lets cool down the tempers, refrain from personal attacks and take a deep breath all. The topic is allegation on ISI of supporting the Taliban.

And BTW, how about discussing, CIA support to Mujahideen during Soviet Afghan war. Sounds all too familiar, replace Soviets with US/NATO and CIA with ISI and Mujahideen with Taliban. Historiacal trends speak for themselves, one can easily dran conclusions and end result of this useless war. The sooner peace talks are opened with Taliban the better it is for all parties involved. The war in Afghanistan is over. Alomst done!

Gen. Petraus faints during congressional hearing on Afghanistan, poor guy the war is taking its toll. Thats why we kept some one like Kayani at the helm of affairs. War is not for faint hearted, when the going gets tough, the tough should get going.
Get Well soon Gen. BETRAY US.

With respect to Myra
I have great compliments for her as a journo and writer, and have learnt a lot from her articles and indepth writing on this blog.
She used to reply and communicate, but all Indian posters accused her of bias, and termed her an Pak Army apologist. That was some time back and i think now its has been made a policy not to interfere in the discussion by the author.
But best of luck to Myra with her career! You are doing justice to your profession by unbiased, truly independent and thought provoking questions/reporting.

Keith asked you a simple question as to why are you guys obsessed with showing how bad India is & you went into this long narrative about Indo-Pak history & relations. So, are you saying that you are obsessed with India because of the history between the two?

@”If policy changes are not made, you will loose Pakistan as an ally.”

You were never an ally. For years, your army played it’s double game & milked the american tax payer. It only started taking selective action against groups which became a threat to it’s own existance, while sheilding & nurturing other groups even today. You have been nothing but a drag on US/NATO & your duplicity has cost american/NATO soldiers lives in afghanistan while threatening the lives of their citizens at home via your “non-state actors”. With “allies” like you, who needs enemies.

@”Come on go ahead! Do it. Go for Pakistan’s diplomatic isolation and cut all economic assistance, cease all defense cooperation and intelligence sharing. Lets see how far you go”

You’re talking like a rash & petulant 12 yr old punk. If you were mature enough to understand how much your country’s economy is reliant on the US/west & the ecconomic reppercussions for Pakistan, if isolated, you wouldn’t say these things. If all aid & loans from the west is called off & trade drastically reduced, you can be rest assured that Pakistan will be bankrupt within no time. Most of the foreign reserves that Pakistan earns every year is from the west & it loses most of those foreign reserves to pay China, Saudi, UAE & other countries who you call friends, for imports. These countries are only interested in you, as long as they are making money from you & the moment you are isolated & bankrupt, they will drop you within no time. If you think that you can survive merely by selling nuclear technology to rogue nations then you’re out of your mind.

Mirzausman:
“That’s for real bro. No matter how much we complain, Pakistan is home. I’d lay down my life without hesitation to defend the “worlds most dangerous country” lol.”

-Yar I respect your spirit and makes me proud, sometimes one person makes a lot of difference. Take the example of AQ Khan, he was just another Pakistani student in Holland, but decided to do something for Pakistan and today we are a nuclear power. Just remember one thing, the people of India are not bad, what happened in Mumbai attack was really unfortunate. When I finished college and went abroad on a working holiday visa type arrangement for two years, I made many friends among Indians both hindus and Muslims. They are wonderful people just like us, I had roommate from Mumbai, we lived literally like one family. Save a few guys on this blog, the problem is the Indian leadership, I persoanly hate Indra Gandhi, Nehru wasn’t that bad, and Hindu extremists today like RSS, VHP etc are the problem.
All we have to do is to contribute towards Pakistan and if anyone Indian or non-Indian thinks they can harm us, we should let them know we are united as a nation. We do not hate, we are a people who would like to live in peace. Its unfortunate today Pakistan is known as most dangerous country. I believe u r in Karachi, how perceptions differ. I am in Islamabad/Rawalpindi but believe me despite everything that has gone on for last three years since I returned back and settled in Pakistan. Still I think the worst is over and we are getting back on our feet. Probably it is time no sports events resume, tourists flock back to this beautiful northern parts of Pakistan. Lets see how it goes, good news is the end game in Afghanistan is nearing, peace should prevail. I just miss the 23 March parade and Independence day rallies at the constitution avenue in Islamabad.
Good luck!

>> Agreed. There are good and bad in neighborhoods let alone enitre nations.

what happened in Mumbai attack was really unfortunate. When I finished college and went abroad on a working holiday visa type arrangement for two years, I made many friends among Indians both hindus and Muslims. They are wonderful people just like us, I had roommate from Mumbai, we lived literally like one family.

>> i don’t want to give the impression that i am some savage but i am definitely passionate about pak, whatever it is wherever it is.

Save a few guys on this blog, the problem is the Indian leadership, I persoanly hate Indra Gandhi, Nehru wasn’t that bad, and Hindu extremists today like RSS, VHP etc are the problem.

>> I totally disagree. There is no extremist element in India. You work for ISI!

All we have to do is to contribute towards Pakistan and if anyone Indian or non-Indian thinks they can harm us, we should let them know we are united as a nation.
We do not hate, we are a people who would like to live in peace. Its unfortunate today Pakistan is known as most dangerous country. I believe u r in Karachi, how perceptions differ.

>> I got some fam in isloo. The food in Pindi is phenomenol.

I am in Islamabad/Rawalpindi but believe me despite everything that has gone on for last three years since I returned back and settled in Pakistan.

Usman
“yeah maybe regional superpower india can take over for US. the afghan brothers will definitely welcome them.”

-Well said, this is where I think there is bad leadership in India. All so-called reconstruction work in India is a way to establish itself in Pakistan’s other neighbourhood and encircle Pakistan. Imagine farmers committing suicides in India, people there living in slums well under the poverty line. And they are spending millions of dollars in Afghanistan. Why? are people of India less important? But Indian leaders have to play super power game even at the expense of their own people.

No! India’s policies are determined by Army Generals like in
Pakistan, but by ever one including input from
bureaucrats who deeply care about both india’s poverty and india’s security.

Several hundred billions are being spent on infrastructure development and poverty alleviation in India. One billion is spent on Afghanistan, sine pak terrorism on Indian civilians has been waged with belief system afghans provide strategic depth to Pakistani terrorist enterprise.

The friendship between India and afghans aregreater than ever because India builds Afghanistan,Pakistan destroys Afghanistan,that’s what this LSE report also documents.

Building schools and training doctors, teachers and civil servants is the “misadventure” India is indulging in. Bombing them is what the Islamic republic does!!
The whole world including afghans know it now

Bharat Ratna spiritual Muslim , enlightened Pashtun was an enemy of Pakistan till his death.
Terrorists are the friends and products of “Pakistan”
not surprisingly end result is failed state kept afloat by aid money.

You need not fear Indians. For we are not hijacking your airplanes, we are not spraying your innocent unarmed civilians with bullets in broad daylight and we have never once started an war with Pakistan. We are not conducting low-level wars against you, nor are we hosting terrorists on our soil to hurt any country anywhere.

It is very kind and dear that some paks so feel so passionate about indian farmers committing suicide, which in itself is horrible, however, these Indian farmers at least are not killing dozens of others as they do it and nor are they taking God’s name while committing murder on themselves and others.

India’s internal problems are not boiling over en-masse threatening the security of other nations.

All Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Buddhists, Christians, Jews and all other minorities are fed up and sick of Pakistani terrorism, terrorists and duplicity and double games played by all of its Gov’t and some people.

With each attack on India, unity between ALL Indians is strengthened, regardless of religion or any other factor.

India has the resources to share with neighbours that play fair and do not lie.

Pakistan is a liar nation and will not get any help from India, as long as it keeps lying. Afghans are benefiting from Indian benevolence and their disdain for Pakistani’s underscores what they feel Pakistan has given them….the Taliban, a repressive backwards 7th century regime that embraces stone age behavior towards anything human.

Citizens of Pak like Umair, Mirzausman, continue to defend the duplicity of Pakistan’s lies and terrorism and continue to makeup elaborate creative excuses, coupled with blind rage, continually choose ignore reality and live in a fictitious mind warp, created by the state of the Pak Army through elaborate, in depth and pervasive anti_india religious propaganda, while at the same time, destroying the rights of women and minorities.

Pashtoons want their nation back and Indians, U.S. and the world are fed up and tired of being held hostage, lied to and constantly being extorted for money.

This current path of creating the terrorism fires everywhere, then begging for the money to fight it and playing double games in the process in the hopes of furthering Pakistani’s geopolitical goals, is coming to an end in the near future.

Pakistan is a failed terrorist rogue state begging for food, creating nukes from IMF cash, while its people starve.

In the not too future, the Pakistani’s are going to wake up and realize that they are being treated like cattle and challenge the punjabi mafia raj head on. Their rage will be uncontainable.

@”All so-called reconstruction work in India is a way to establish itself in Pakistan’s other neighbourhood and encircle Pakistan” Posted by Umairpk

Let’s see if I got this right: When the Pakistani establishment spends millions to fund militant groups which kill/maim/injure Afghans (despite being virtually bankrupt & surviving on aids & loans), it is considered as “strategic depth” necessary for your “national security”. But when India spends money (from it’s own pocket) for building schools, hospitals & roads for the Afghans, it’s an unnecessary waste of money & encirclement of Pakistan?

Thanks for your concern for the poor of India but I suggest that you save some of it for Pakistan’s poor as well, many of whom are sadly killing their children these days because they can’t feed them anymore. Maybe you should bring this fact to the notice of the ISI, before the begin the next round of payments to your “non-state actors”.

I don’t think you should be concerned about Indian encirclement of pakistan, rather it should be encouraged.

let them build the infrastructure and escalate to put boots on the ground. This would be advatageous to Pakistan and should be encouraged.

One of the most amazing things about Indians (more so than all the other endless superlatives) is that they can sit in New York, Vancouver, Dubai, Kuwait city and know more about pakistani/pushtun/afghan sentiment than I do!

Pakistan is one of two pushtun countries in the world.
Karachi has more pushtuns than Kabul. more in pakistan than afghanistan.

Even Karzai refers to afpak as conjoined twins.
Here is a list of supreme executives of the country (not some ceremonial presidential position)

Ayub Khan, Yahya Khan, Zafarullah Khan, Liaqat Ali Khan, Feroz Khan. The list goes on and on in every sphere of pakistani life from media to military to governance to sports to commerce.

If indians think Afghans would welcome “idolator hindis” better than “atheist soviets” and “people of the book americans” better than “fellow pushtun” than they are sadly mistaken about the paktho code.

You should see how old, maimed, battle-hardened, afghan elders travel all the way to islamabad to pray at shah faisal mosque and offer prayers at zia-ul-haq’s mausoleum. It’s very touching.

Mortal,

The terriblly sad hunger problem in pakistan is no where near the magnitude of India. I will let you discover the freshest statistics yourself.

Umairpk: ”All so-called reconstruction work in India is a way to establish itself in Pakistan’s other neighbourhood and encircle Pakistan”

Paranoia sets in when mind becomes criminal. If your countrymen have been scheming all the time to infiltrate, surround and sabotage against your neighbors, then even when they do normal things, it will appear like infiltration, being surrounded and sabotage. That is typical of people who cause harm to others. They begin to read everything as pay back. India is only doing normal things inside Afghanistan. It is your ISI that has been sending in suicide bombers to kill Indian construction workers and doctors inside Afghanistan.

If you are so much being encircled by India, then your country has been colluding with China building ports, getting nuke technology, fighter jets and what not. Here is a deal. Cut off your ties with China and we’ll get out of Afghanistan. Liberate Balochistan and Sindh. We will consider giving up Kashmir. Make a fair deal. Are you ready for it? You can’t have everything your way. You have to give something in order to take. Let us see if your country will pursue peaceful co-existence even after all that.

Mirzausman: “I don’t think you should be concerned about Indian encirclement of pakistan, rather it should be encouraged.

let them build the infrastructure and escalate to put boots on the ground. This would be advatageous to Pakistan and should be encouraged.”

India is not at war in Afghanistan. So come out of the closet and look at the world without war mindset. Countries can interact commercially. Just our presence in Afghanistan is giving you guys upset stomachs. That itself shows the level of cowardice. Have you guys ever thought about India having a peaceful interaction with Afghanistan? We are helping them build infrastructure. In fact the Afghans want Indian mining companies to come and extract their newly found minerals. They are not asking Pakistan or even the US. That should tell you something.

“One of the most amazing things about Indians (more so than all the other endless superlatives) is that they can sit in New York, Vancouver, Dubai, Kuwait city and know more about pakistani/pushtun/afghan sentiment than I do!”

Your countrymen have done some much self damage to themselves that the whole world looks at you guys like criminals. Pakistanis in the US are pretending to be Indians in order to save themselves. The reputation is terrible and to know that one does not have to live in Pakistan. The fame has spread in all directions.

“Pakistan is one of two pushtun countries in the world.
Karachi has more pushtuns than Kabul. more in pakistan than afghanistan.”

That’s right. Soon Pakistan will become countries – one for Pashtuns and the other for the others.

“Even Karzai refers to afpak as conjoined twins.”

And he wants surgery as quickly as possible to detach his nation from the evil twin.

“Here is a list of supreme executives of the country (not some ceremonial presidential position)

Ayub Khan, Yahya Khan, Zafarullah Khan, Liaqat Ali Khan, Feroz Khan. The list goes on and on in every sphere of pakistani life from media to military to governance to sports to commerce.”

You forgot Tikka Khan – the Butcher of East Pakistan!
And you do not like Khan Abdul Gaffar Khan who was called as “Frontier Gandhi.” Both Jinnah and the British hated him because Khan was against the formation of Pakistan using religion as an excuse.

“If indians think Afghans would welcome “idolator hindis” better than “atheist soviets” and “people of the book americans” better than “fellow pushtun” than they are sadly mistaken about the paktho code.”

So it all boils down to Madrasa based foreign policy. It is Wahabi Sunni Muslims versus others. If you are so concerned about religion of others then explain to me how your country is seeking the friendship and co-operation of the “Godless”, Communist China. Or did the Chinese convert recently? Why this double standard?

“You should see how old, maimed, battle-hardened, afghan elders travel all the way to islamabad to pray at shah faisal mosque and offer prayers at zia-ul-haq’s mausoleum. It’s very touching.”

Yeah we are seeing some of them blowing themselves up in Peshawar taking fellow Muslims to Heaven. Quite a touching brotherhood embrace. Aren’t the Pakistan Taliban fellow Muslims? Or did they convert to “Hinduism?” How come your military is justified in killing fellow Muslims in a nation formed for Muslims? Do not assume that others do not think for themselves. If you have a principle, follow it first.

Let’s not make this a debate about which country has more poor & hungry because we all know that both have plenty. Poverty no matter where, is unfortunate & it’s eradication should be of the highest priority for any nation.

@”One of the most amazing things about Indians (more so than all the other endless superlatives) is that they can sit in New York, Vancouver, Dubai, Kuwait city and know more about pakistani/pushtun/afghan sentiment than I do!”

I live & work in New York city where there’s an Afghan operated cofee/doughnut/bagle cart on the corner of almost every street (90% of the cofee cart operating licenses have been reserved for Afghans since the end of the Afghan war). Needless to say, I’ve bought a lot of cofee from these carts over the years & talked to a lot of Afghans as well. I’m not exaggerating by any means when I say that I’ve yet to come across a single Afghan, who does not curse Pakistan for ruining their country & is grateful to India for builiding it again.

Have you guys ever thought about India having a peaceful interaction with Afghanistan?

>> Where was good india’s brotherly love for afghans when they were being killed by friends soviets? what was peaceful about your support of northern alliance?

We are helping them build infrastructure. In fact the Afghans want Indian mining companies to come and extract their newly found minerals.

>> hmmm… I see someone is interested in lithium. don’t forget to support mining operations with troops — lots of troops. you will need them.

They are not asking Pakistan or even the US. That should tell you something.

“One of the most amazing things about Indians (more so than all the other endless superlatives) is that they can sit in New York, Vancouver, Dubai, Kuwait city and know more about pakistani/pushtun/afghan sentiment than I do!”

Your countrymen have done some much self damage to themselves that the whole world looks at you guys like criminals. Pakistanis in the US are pretending to be Indians in order to save themselves. The reputation is terrible and to know that one does not have to live in Pakistan. The fame has spread in all directions.

>> again, how do you know pushtun sentiment?

“Pakistan is one of two pushtun countries in the world.
Karachi has more pushtuns than Kabul. more in pakistan than afghanistan.”

That’s right. Soon Pakistan will become countries – one for Pashtuns and the other for the others.

>> can i get a timeline? I hate surprises.

“Even Karzai refers to afpak as conjoined twins.”

“Here is a list of supreme executives of the country (not some ceremonial presidential position)

Ayub Khan, Yahya Khan, Zafarullah Khan, Liaqat Ali Khan, Feroz Khan. The list goes on and on in every sphere of pakistani life from media to military to governance to sports to commerce.”

You forgot Tikka Khan – the Butcher of East Pakistan!
And you do not like Khan Abdul Gaffar Khan who was called as “Frontier Gandhi.” Both Jinnah and the British hated him because Khan was against the formation of Pakistan using religion as an excuse.

>> your point? khans are a fabric of pakistan was my point, good or bad.

“If indians think Afghans would welcome “idolator hindis” better than “atheist soviets” and “people of the book americans” better than “fellow pushtun” than they are sadly mistaken about the paktho code.”

So it all boils down to Madrasa based foreign policy. It is Wahabi Sunni Muslims versus others. If you are so concerned about religion of others then explain to me how your country is seeking the friendship and co-operation of the “Godless”, Communist China. Or did the Chinese convert recently? Why this double standard?

>> there is a reason why those words are in quotes genius. this is how the AFGHANS see the world for last 1000 years: zan, zar, zameen. of course you know their sentiment intimately so you would already know that.

This is what a quote looks like ———-> ”

Just wondering. why is paksitan’s support of one faction evil but india’s support of northern alliance wonderful?

When will the hypocritical self-righteousness end?

At any rate, please continue escalating involvement in afghanistan. As a superpower it is imperative that you sort out the neighborhood. Nothing could be more desirable if you know what I mean. 😉

Mortal ,
thanks for posting the statistics on poverty.
Some times when I see the billions of dollars of beggar money /
ransom paks collect from US, I think about how such massive aid per capita would be put to good use by India. Paks use it for more terrorism, war mongering.

Look at the racist language of the paks. India seeks a stable, friendly Afghanistan whereas the paks desire a colony.

I live & work in New York city where there’s an Afghan operated cofee/doughnut/bagle cart on the corner of almost every street (90% of the cofee cart operating licenses have been reserved for Afghans since the end of the Afghan war). Needless to say, I’ve bought a lot of cofee from these carts over the years & talked to a lot of Afghans as well. I’m not exaggerating by any means when I say that I’ve yet to come across a single Afghan, who does not curse Pakistan for ruining their country & is grateful to India for builiding it again.

>> it’s called customer relations management. don’t underestimate the brother, he probably has a Siebel CRM application running under the cart. He probably has you profiled in the following manner.

Rajeev Singh – brings many fellow male-dancer friends from local chukka club. Always has chocalate around face but never buys chocalates. Brings lots of business but driving away other clientele. Note to Inventory – order more produce “tossed salad”.

KP Singh – very good customer, even offers to fix cart out of genuine goodness of heart. Always offer tablets and napkin for foam around mouth. insult pak and double profit.

Let’s not make this a debate about which country has more poor & hungry because we all know that both have plenty. Poverty no matter where, is unfortunate & it’s eradication should be of the highest priority for any nation.

>> could not agree more. why percentages this time, why not absolute totals like last time?

Is it possible for you Paks to just keep the stench and rot of your country within your borders please? Please do not export any more terrorism and quit taking taxpayer money from poor U.S. families, while your agencies facilitate their butcher next door. Stay to yourself, within your borders and do not bother any body. Is that possible..if it is…the world will not care for Pakistan, we won’t even mention your name.

You guys make good textile, masalas and what not, please stick to that sort of thing…please avoid politics.

Mirza/any Pakistani Punjabi – You made my day! Give him that “speacial” cup of cofee mixed with a particular yellow-colored bodily fluid, offer a free encore & burst into laughter while he walks away, gulping down his “cofee”

@”Mortal, all jokes aside, your sample of 1 is much more reliable that my sample of 30 million pushtun of pakistan”

Mirza, all jokes aside, I never said 1. It’s actually more like 100 & I’m talking about afghans here. So, you’ve spoken to each of the 30 million pashtuns of Pakistan?

Poverty is irrelevant. Every country has its poor. That does not mean they drop everything just to eradicate poverty. The US does not stop operating abroad because a few folks live in projects and trailer parks.

Countries have to guard their interests. Nothing wrong with India protecting its interests by sending aid to Afghanistan. Far better than Pakistan protecting its interests by sending insurgents instead.

No one is making any progress with mullahusman here!
He beats umair by whole 9 yards.
Same racist, supremacist rant…..but no shame in being beggar terrorists of the world.
Or should I say terrorist beggars?
Mullahusman, stop begging.. And try to stand in your own. Wouldn’t last a few days even.

Mirza/any Pakistani Punjabi – You made my day! Give him that “speacial” cup of cofee mixed with a particular yellow-colored bodily fluid, offer a free encore & burst into laughter while he walks away, gulping down his “cofee”

So the latest twist by Umair/MIrza is that Indians are sick of Pakistan because of Mumbai attack…..just one reason!!!!

you need to know the fact that Mumbai is a dot on the graph and had Kasab not been caught and evidence were not available, that would have gone unnoticed like many other routine bombings in India by Pakistan-based army of terrorists. Who better knows than Umair about sleeper cells.

Indians are not upset just because of Mumbai incident, it is the long history of terrorism by Pakistan in India that is the reason. Pakistan-sponsored terrorists have been doing this since 1989 in kashmir. Pakistan actively supported Sikh militancy in Indian Punjab for 15yrs and most of those years not a day went without someone getting killed. Some of those top terrorists are sitting in Pakistan. Have we not chatted already about Pakistan’s role in Punjab militancy?

@They are wonderful people just like us, I had roommate from Mumbai, we lived literally like one family. Save a few guys on this blog, the problem is the Indian leadership, I persoanly hate Indra Gandhi, Nehru wasn’t that bad, and Hindu extremists today like RSS, VHP etc are the problem.”

— Oh a sweet phase here! Buckle up for the next phase. I think we have same views on Pakistani people, Pakistan leadership (which essentially is PA) and Islamic terrorism.

NOW om terrorism:

–You have the nerve to say all this about Hindu extremists only (who have not crossed the border). But remain silent on Islamic groups who cross border into India.

Remind me again, were u not the one who posted some youtube link and asked Indian posters about what they think about VHP et al. Indians, including myself, came back and said clearly that they condemn the fundamentalism by these organizations, and that their supporters are a small minority. In turn you were asked to condemn Islamic fundamentalism by LeT, JeM and other hyphenated group from Pakistani soil. We heard deafening silence. It is shame, to put it politely.

@Poverty is irrelevant. Every country has its poor. That does not mean they drop everything just to eradicate poverty. The US does not stop operating abroad because a few folks live in projects and trailer parks.

Countries have to guard their interests. Nothing wrong with India protecting its interests by sending aid to Afghanistan. Far better than Pakistan protecting its interests by sending insurgents instead.
Posted by kEiThZ

—Agree with Keith.

Guys, let us not fight with Pakistanis over poverty by getting into micro details. Why don’t we agree that Pakistan is richer, has better literacy rate, more safe, better economy than India. Well they know the facts already. Nothing annoys such people than agreeing with them.

Mortal:
“Sorry to inform you but a majority of the separatist outfits listed by you above, are obsolete/non-existent/inert/non-function al/irrelevant.”

-If even a fraction of the sepratist organizations that Usman listed were functioning, imagine the reality of India. Infact India is started to look like a failed state, a dozen sepratist movements, Hindutva supporters, poverty levels and inability to forge better relations with neighbours.

@Is pakistan responsible for all of these separatist movements?”
–Not all, some. All the obsolete movements from Punjab in the end of the list were known to be supported by Pakistan. “Balbir militias”….lol….

let me ask you this: tell us which movements are supported by Pakistan in India.

Why did u not list LeT, JeM run by Pakistan? Is that careful omission?

Do you condemn terrorism by LeT type groups who belong to Pakistan, not Kashmir (hence terrorists)? Umair does not condemn them. I am wondering how is it possible that one can condemn Mumabi terrorism by 10 terrorists from LeT, and keep mouth shut about the organization.

Well we have the balls to codemn Hindu extremism, even though these groups like VHP has nothing to do with Pakistan. Seems like most Pakis have lost their pair on condemning India-specific terrorism. A shining example is UMAIR. He can give everyone here BS about religion, morality and practice not a speck of it.

Let us see what Mirza got especially that he condemns Mumabi terrorism.

___________________

ABOVE ALL

what does this all has to do with the blog that Pakistan’s ISI supports Afghan insurgents.

@If even a fraction of the sepratist organizations that Usman listed were functioning, imagine the reality of India. Infact India is started to look like a failed state, a dozen sepratist movements, Hindutva supporters, poverty levels and inability to forge better relations with neighbours.
Posted by Umairpk

—If India is a failed state then Pakistan has disappeared.

Indians (at least from this blog) have the balls to condemn religious extremism of all kinds, while you support Islamic terrorism (except those who are anti-Pak) big time, is a huge difference.

Well we have the balls to codemn Hindu extremism, have Pakis lost their pair or what. MFs

>> There you go talking about balls again. I think you posted in the wrong forum.
MF’s > your problem is you are so ‘engaged’ with the other male-dancers from your dance-class that you can’t recall your comment about pakistan of supporting indian separatists in punjab. This is understandable since getting pounded from 6 different directions can be a bit distracting.

Let us see what Mirza got especially that he condemns Mumabi terrorism

>> Again, due to your ‘multi-tasking’, you have not read my linked posts on pakistan’s policies. It doesn’t matter, even if I condemn mumbai, I am accused of deception/duplicity/evil etc. get those balls out of your leatard dancing pants and pay attention.

It’s not that we bring up the matter of money but it’s rather your insecurity, complex & ultra-sensitivity as a Pakistani that you seem to misinterpret what we mean & give it a material twist. It’s sort of a “have/have not” complex. For instance, I told you on another forum that sikhs have moved on from 1984 & today the sikh community is one of the most prosperous communities in India. You made it out to be as an issue of money whereas I was merely pointing at one of the most important macro indicators of happiness of any particular group of people, be it a country or a community within a country. There’s a direct corelation between economic prosperity & happiness/peace & that’s the reason why there’s generally more happiness/peace amongst people liivng in more prosperous countries than the one’s who aren’t prosperous.

>> so happiness as indicated by macro/micro aggregators by way of per per per per capita income compensates for defiling the golden temple by indian army. I have no problem if this is how you feel. However for complexed-muslims (according to your psychoanalysis), all the wealth in the world is not enough for indian govt. to defile our holiest sites. Let’s notch this up to “cultural differences”.

Pakistan is tenth on the list. India is 87th. The number of insurgent groups scarcely matters. It’s how effective they are. I would suggest that Pakistan is ranked higher because groups like the TTP are far better at what they do than groups like the Naxalites.

Every country has separatists. They are only relevant when they are effective. At round table discussions, even Pakistani officers have suggested that the Indian handling of the Naxalites offers them a model for how to deal with the Taliban. True or not, the groups in India scarcely pose an existential threat.

Most importantly, groups in India aren’t threatening global peace and security. They aren’t harbouring or generating terrorists who kill citizens of neighboring countries

@”so happiness as indicated by macro/micro aggregators by way of per per per per capita income compensates for defiling the golden temple by indian army. I have no problem if this is how you feel” Posted by mirzausman

The perpetrator of blue star recieved her retribution within months of the operation & has been dead for over 25 yrs. I know it’s a wet dream of Pakistanis like you to see sikhs turn against India but sorry, it ain’t happening. BTW, didn’t an operation similar to blue star, happen in the Red mosque in Islamabad a couple of years ago, when the holy mosque was defiled by the Pak army? The last time I checked, the perpetrator of that operation was playing golf & giving lectures in london. How come no ‘payback’ there?
Anyways, as I said earlier, sikhs have moved on from 1984 a long time ago & are living happily & peacefully with their hindu, muslim, christian, buddhist etc brothers in India & progressing with the rest of the country. So, just cut this cr*p already, will you! Also, cut all the gay bullsh*t & personal attacks refferenced to Rajeev. I don’t mind a touch of humor but that’s really NOT FUNNY!

@”I condemn them all LeT, JeM and their root cause – Indian suffocation of disputed kashmir’s self-determination by way of torture, ra_pe, fake encounters”

No, no, no! Their real root cause is the blind ambition of your military establishment to “bleed India with a thousand cuts”, break it & avenge 1971. You are fooling no one but yourself by passing of these Punjabi terrorist outfits, created by your army, as Kashmiri freedom fighters. Their only objective is to inflict maximum damage on India & kill as many Indians as possible. So, let’s just be clear about that.

Let’s all immigrate to Pakistan, for it is the land of milk and honey. We can covert once we get there, there is lots of food everywhere, clean water, well maintained infrastructure, a modern education with a functioning democracy, a government that takes care of its people and has good relations with all of its neighbours. It also has a army that answers to the will of its democratic government. The people of Pakistan are very moderate and very accepting of all religions and minorities. The educated in pakistan do not want to immigrate any where, they just love it there. The best of all, Pakistan has no terrorism, no hate in its society, all is honest, open, everybody accepts responsiblity, loves all of their neighours and above all, love India, U.S. and Israel.

There is no pecking order in pakistan, the punjabi’s share everything with minorities, from resources to politics and work together to have the best functioning democracy in the world.

Pakistan is also a center of production excellence and brain power, where some of the best and brightest never want to leave.

Above all, Pakistan has the most solid economy in the world, as it never takes economic handouts and has no national debt whatsoever. With all of the excess money it creates, it feeds the poor, helps its neighbours in Afghanistan rebuild and modernizes its education system to be among the best in the world.

In short, ever inch of Pakistani soil is productive, friendly, open-minded for the sole purpose of keeping its citizens happy and keeping brotherly relations with India.

India, the U.S. Israel and others only hope to be one percent of the monumental greatness that Pakistan has achieved.

The perpetrator of blue star recieved her retribution within months of the operation & has been dead for over 25 yrs.

>> the murderers of sikhs after the perpetrator’s well-deserved death roam free.

BTW, didn’t an operation similar to blue star, happen in the Red mosque in Islamabad a couple of years ago, when the holy mosque was defiled by the Pak army? The last time I checked, the perpetrator of that operation was playing golf & giving lectures in london. How come no ‘payback’ there?

>> Not analogous. He lost his ‘presidency’, lost his popularity and lives in self-imposed exile. Req Mosque – not equivalent to the holiest temple in sikh religion. artillery army and tanks not equivalent to special forces. death toll not remotely close, no indiscriminate residential artillery , no state-sponsored pogrom of 5000+. sorry.

Anyways, as I said earlier, sikhs have moved on from 1984 a long time ago & are living happily & peacefully with their hindu, muslim, christian, buddhist

etc brothers in India & progressing with the rest of the country. So, just cut this cr*p already, will you!

>> i understand that – my point was about our cultural differences vis-a-vis mortal singh per capita happiness index.

Also, cut all the gay bullsh*t & personal attacks refferenced to Rajeev. I don’t mind a touch of humor but that’s really NOT FUNNY!

>> of all the things you have ever stated to me, this was most hurtful. for your kind information, Rajeev is NOT gay bullsh_t sir. I object in the strongest terms to reuter moderators. Rajeev is a proud indian man in the west and his lifestyle is not to be denigrated. he is just like the rest of us, he puts his pants on by lifting one leg at a time.

@”>>United states/Israel have insurgent separatist movements? hundreds of million hungry? Does US have bad relations with Canada/Mexico?
Did your “100 kashmiri chai vendor friends” tell you this?” Posted by mirzausman

@”the murderers of sikhs after the perpetrator’s well-deserved death roam free”

OK, so now we’re moving from ‘blue star’ to the aftermath of Indira Gandhi’s assasination? Anyways, the perpetrator of those attacks has also been dead for 20 yrs. End of story!

@”Not analogous. He lost his ‘presidency’, lost his popularity and lives in self-imposed exile. Req Mosque – not equivalent to the holiest temple in sikh religion. artillery army and tanks not equivalent to special forces. death toll not remotely close, no indiscriminate residential artillery , no state-sponsored pogrom of 5000+. sorry”

A self-imposed exile & a life of luxury in london. That’s quite a punishment! A place of worship is a place of worship & how was it (red mosque seige) not state sponsored? wasn’t Musharraf the president of Pakistan?

@So, just cut this cr*p already, will you! Also, cut all the gay bullsh*t & personal attacks refferenced to Rajeev. I don’t mind a touch of humor but that’s really NOT FUNNY!”
–Mortal

Mortal: lol…I have ignored him once, but the guy is persistent. It is making me laugh than anything else.

Mirza says:
@Rajeev is NOT gay bullsh_t sir. I object in the strongest terms to reuter moderators.”

–LMAO Mirza you are right, gay is not my life style. But Mirza bhai, I respect your life style—after all gay does not mean bad if you are. I will not object to Reuters—LGBT is a personal life style, Being in the West I have no objection nor does Reuters. So carry on.

@”get those balls out of your leatard dancing pants and pay attention.”
–posted by Mirza
–As much as you may picture me leotards, I am not giving you, what I will take out, to you. Go ask someone else. Didn’t you allude to earlier that you get a lot of ga$s in Karachi? Mirza bhai I respect your lifestyle, so should you!

@Rajeev Singh – brings many fellow male-dancer friends from local chukka club. Always has chocalate around face but never buys chocalates. Brings lots of business but driving away other clientele. Note to Inventory – order more produce “tossed salad”.
–Mirza, I am going to bring your those 2 Pakistani sisters so that they see how their bro Mirxa helps toss that Afghhan’s salad. 30million will be lot of work for you. LMAO. Don’t forget to breathe. ewwww!

@This is understandable since getting pounded from 6 different directions can be a bit distracting.”
—TUT TUT! Stealing my line thrown at you, eh! you lost all my respect.

@ I condemn them all LeT, JeM and their root cause – Indian suffocation of disputed kashmir’s self-determination by way of torture, ra_pe, fake encounters, curfews, election rigging, media blackout, NGO bans, theft, legal & illegal searches, framing, so_domy, child physical and se_ual abuse, fraud, false-promises, ethnic cleansing, humiliation, subjugation, hegemony, draconian protest laws, kidnapping, assault, battery, entrapment, and cold-blooded, premeditated, wholesale murder [1].”
–wow! that’s quite a big hyphen [BUT] of Mirza. So lil condemnation and so big the list of reasons that followed. In other words you are telling that these terrorists exist for a reason. How is this any different from what these terrorists say. Does this not amount to supporting them? Plainly pathetic! Don’t throw that kitchen sink of a link from your site. I got Milonga tonight—dancing with your pakistani sisters-so no time for dozens of links. BTW one is from Karachi and the other Lahore.

So do you condemn LeT, JeM —YES or NO. Either cut paste from your link or type. So far you on condemning the LeT and JeM terrorists–FAIL!

@ It doesn’t matter, even if I condemn mumbai, I am accused of deception/duplicity/evil etc.”
–It matters. Point is not condemning just one act but the whole organization(s). If you stop being a whiny boy what Indians will accuse you of this or that after you say something, you would end up expressing yourself. We Indians will be after you anyway lol.

Did you ever think, so many people in India, so many different religions, so many supposed “separatist” movements, yet India has managed to make minorities prime ministers, put satellites and people into space, managed the largest functioning democracy in the world and also has the most liked and preferred S.Asian diaspora in the UK, US, Canada and elsewhere? All this chaos, yet India seems to be churning out some of the best and brightest and most sought after by the West for brain power?

Despite all of these “problems” India has..it somehow has managed to create a very large functioning economy and probably the most integratable, successful and likeable immigrants India has to offer…ie…Punjabi, Hindu, Sikhs, Mushlims, Buddhists…all these from India…

All this trouble with India, yet India has no state born terrorists that are harming any country in the world….nor are there any terrorists from Indian soil out to harm innocents drinking coffee, or trying to do 911 types acts on others…..how can such a large and dysfunctional country on paper be such a large and well functioning country with such productive people……India is such an anomaly…..all this….must be lies told by the Zionist media to make Pakistan look bad.

Still with all of these insurmountable problems…there are no religious based terror training camps, India is not begging for cash from IMF…but is in fact spending billions helping Afghans….how can this anomaly be true???…these are fabrications again by the media…to make the great pure country of Pakistan look bad.

On top of all of these problems…the U.S. actually likes India despite all of its horrible short comings…again…all staged to make Pakistan look bad somehow.

It is in fact Pakistan that is the world class leader to greatness and peace in any and all fields.

Here are some of the reasons my small, weak, innocent country has issues with a large, strong, brutal neighbor.
This whole issue is not about economy but justice, humanity and morality. We pakistanis want peace and justice, that is it.

Look what your superpower has done to a neighborhood full of India’s victims.

•India swallowed Junagarh on the basis of majority hindu against the wishes of its nawab who had acceeded to Pakistan.
•India swallowed Hyderabad on the basis of majority hindu against the wishes of its nizam
•India swallowed Kashmir on the basis of the maharaja ‘wishes’ irrespective of the muslim majority’s wishes. The instrument of ascension was claimed to be “lost”.
•India swallowed the princely state of Bantva-Manavadar and it 26 muslim villages.
•India invaded and absorbed Goa 4,000 Portugese security with a force of 30,000 on the basis of a foreign presence on “republic of India’s” land.
•India annexed Sikkhim by formenting a coup against the Buddhist king manipulating the grievances of his subjects. The prime minister that supported India was labelled a traitor by his own people. 5000 Indian soldiers stormed a force of 243. 1 nineteen year old palace guard was killed. Sikkhim the tiny country was no more.
•India withheld Pakistan’s share of funds and resources from the very beginning of its birth. The newborn nation financed its treasury with donated silverware from citizens and funds from the Nizam of Hyderabad.
•India withheld 297 trainloads of supplies allocated to Pakistan. (3 trainloads were sent with scrap).
•India has always supported “Baluchistan liberation army” and related terror outfits.
•India rampaged through the sacred sikh golden temple, killed sikh leaders and humiliated its followers.
•India used artillery against its own Sikh people in the religious residential area of Amristar
•Indian police and para-military stood by idly as 3000+ Sikhs were murdered during the Sikh Riots.
•India government stood by idly as the destruction of Babri Masjid took place
•Indian state government of Gujrat headed by Modi committed a state-sponsored pogrom in gujrat killing 2000+ Muslims and displacing 100,000.
•India sent their military to sri lanka and massacred both the Sinhalese and the Tamils in Velvettiturai and Trincomalee
•India armed and supported Mukhti Bahini even before the situation in East Pakistan had become violent
•India invaded Siachen Glacier
•India started the nuclear arms race in 1974
•India swallowed Minicoy Islands (forgotten by the British) without any negotiation with the other dominion (pakistan)
•India current concerns for Afghanistan are so genuine that it supported the illegal, immoral and brutal Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
•India supported the Northern Alliance against the Pashtuns majority but blames Pakistan for interference
•India started the nuclear provocation by testing nuclear weapons on Pakistan’s border
•India has slaughtered 100,000 civilians in Kashmir
•India financed anti-Pakistan Northern Alliance
•India continues to stall resolutions with Bangladesh over river boundaries, hundres of enclaves.
•India border forces have killed hundreds of Bangladeshi border guards.
•India continues to fence the disputed borders with Bangladesh regardless of the Bangladeshi protests.
•India maintains contested boundary sections with Nepal including 400 sq. km over the Kalapani River.
•India continues to stall negotiations on disputed territory in Sir Creek with Pakistan
•India continues to support the Dalai Lama and instigate the Chinese
•Indians government warned: “If the Chinese will not vacate the areas occupied by her, India will have to repeat wat she did in Goa. She will certainly drive out the Chinese forces.” India initiated the Forward Policy setting up checkpoints north of the McMahon line.
•India has had a war with China due its inflexibility with border territories inherited from the British Raj.
•India maintains an army 0f 700,000 soldiers in Kashmir (50% of its total army and greater than the entire Army of neighboring Pakistan) against the civilian population of that small state which numbers less than 4 million people. ?even this horrifying imbalance of 1 soldier for every 6 Kashmiris (majority of whom are old men, women and children) has failed to suppress the freedom movement. Kashmir is under direct President’s rule since 1990, after the state legislature was dissolved (the federally appointed governor had admitted that the Kashmiri legislature had a history of rigged elections). The nature of State-sponsored terrorism is exemplified by such unbelievable laws as “The Armed Forces (J&K) Special Powers Bill (1990), which have been passed by the parliament of world’s largest “democracy”. This Bill grants authorization to members of Indian Security Forces to “fire upon or otherwise use force, even to the causing of death against any person” without fire orders. 130,000 people have been brutally murdered by the Indian Security Forces in the past 20 years and thousands more have been intimidated and terrorized. Pakistanis believe this is state-sponsored terrorism. The Indian security forces have flouted all norms of civilized conduct. Kashmiri youths have been murdered in cold blood in fake encounters and Kashmiri women of all ages were and are gang-raped in the prescence of their families. International human rights organizations and the international press has been refused entry into the State by the Indian government. They can only visit the ?These human rights organization like Amnesty International and Asia Watch constantly report of indescribably inhumane treatment meted out to Kashmiris in government run torture cells and elsewhere. ?While the world has responded to the Bosnia and Kuwait, it has so far failed to act to stop an even greater problem of abuse of human rights and mass genocide of Kashmiris by an invading army. It seems that commercial interests have taken precedence over the dignity of human life.
•India arrested the PRIME MINISTER of Kashmir in 1953
•India rejected UN proposals to keep 16000 troops until plebiscite is held.
•Indian forces have raped 9900 women in Kashmir
•India imposed an economic blockade on land-locked Nepal in 1989
•India overtly and covertly supported the insurgency against the state by LTTE, a nationalist Tamil group in the northern Jaffna region of this small island country of Sri Lanka, which kept it politically and economically destabilised for decades
•India interferes with Nepals internal affairs much to the latter’s discontent
•India massacred peaceful Kashmiri protests in Gowkadal, Maisuma and Bijbehara
•Indian Armed Forces are allowed to arrest non-violent protesters and are slapping them 2 years imprisonment under PSA laws
•India supported Shanti Bahini insurgency in the Chittagong Hill Tracts according to Bangladesh
•Indian encroached on Nepali lands and committed atrocities along the border villages of western district of Dang. These actions resulted in the displacement of more than 6000 people from their homes. Cases of rape and disappearance have been reported. This is not the first time the IBSF has encroached on Nepali territory and committed atrocities: from Jhapa in the east all the way to Darchula in the west (where the Indian military has even set up a permanent base), the pattern of border encroachment is repeated, with forceful displacement, shifting of border markers and appropriation of territory. India has already appropriated some 59,970 hectares of Nepali territory at 54 points in 21 districts. All these cases are well documented, but India has not shown any sign of taking responsibility of its excesses in a foreign land. This is not the only example of India%u2019s interference in Nepal’s sovereignty. Recently the Indian Ambassador to Nepal, Mr. Sood, interfered in the choice of Nepal’s Commander-in-Chief. By doing so, he has made it clear that Nepalese right to choose their government remains a right as long as their choice does not contradict with Indias’ vested interest in Nepal.
•In 1971, Elements of the Indian Army looted Bangladesh while the high command let it happen and may have benefited from the loot.
•India has banned Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International from Kashmir over 20 years. Recently to AI personnel were allowed into Kashmir. They are Indians! Their first course of action was to call Kashmir an integral part of India (a fact disputed by almost all countries in the world… except India).
•Indian governments have refused to sign nuclear testing and nonproliferation agreements — accelerating a nuclear arms race in South Asia. (India’s second nuclear tests in 1998 led to Pakistan’s decision to detonate its own nuclear weapons.)
•In 2008, India single-handedly foiled the last Doha round of global trade talks, an effort to nail together a global deal that almost nobody loved, but one that would have benefited developing countries most.”I reject everything,” declared Kamal Nath, then the Indian commerce and industry minister, after grueling days and sleepless nights of negotiations in Geneva in the summer of 2008.
•India also regularly refuses visas for international rights advocates. In 2003, India denied a visa to the head of Amnesty International, Irene Khan. Although no official reason was given, it was likely a punishment for Amnesty’s critical stance on the government’s handling of Hindu attacks that killed as many as 2,000 Muslims in Gujarat the previous year. Most recently, a delegation from the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom, a congressionally mandated body, was denied Indian visas. In the past, the commission had called attention to attacks on both Muslims and Christians in India.

I CLEARLY REMEMBER MYRA ASKED POSTERS NOT TO USE REUTERS AS A PLATFORM TO LAUNCH PERSONAL VIEWS ON RANDOM ISSUES. OBVIOUSLY SHE IS AWAY LOOKING AT THIS GUY’S POSTS.

HE IS RECKLESSLY USING REUTERS AS A PLATFORM TO EXPRESS HIS VIEWS IRRESPECTIVE OF THE SCOPE OF THE BLOG i.e.,
“New report accuses Pakistan’s ISI of backing Afghan insurgents”.

HIS TACTICS are OBVIOUS—TO DISTRACT THE POSTERS INTO DEFENDING LIES ABOUT INDIA. SIMPLY IGNORE him AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE on India-related issues. One liners are enough. NO micro details are needed. Because there is no way you can deal with a propagandist. Only Reuter moderator can do that job.

NOW:
much of the issue mentioned above by Mirza are either internal to India, non-existent at this point and paranoia of Pakistan(is)in other cases. ABOVE ALL THEY ARE NOT RELEVANT TO THE BLOG.

BTW, didn’t an operation similar to blue star, happen in the Red mosque in Islamabad a couple of years ago, when the holy mosque was defiled by the Pak army? The last time I checked, the perpetrator of that operation was playing golf & giving lectures in london. How come no ‘payback’ there?
–posted by Mortal

@Not analogous. He lost his ‘presidency’, lost his popularity and lives in self-imposed exile. Req Mosque – not equivalent to the holiest temple in sikh religion. artillery army and tanks not equivalent to special forces. death toll not remotely close, no indiscriminate residential artillery , no state-sponsored pogrom of 5000+. sorry.
–Posted by Mirzausman

—Mortal: Look at Mirza’s number crunching and relative “holiness” of the shrine. I am really laughing here. Well even by his own low standards, he should stop shedding tears over Babri Masjid which was not even functional at the time. This also means that 1971 genocide of Bengalis by Pakistan can be ignored since 3million bengalis is still less than the genocide of 6 millions Jews. That also means, Indians can ignore and shut their mouth on innocents killed in riots, including Mirza’s favorite topic operation blue star and 1984 riots, since the # is no where near 3 million bengali killed by Pakistan.

Rajeev, Discussion forums are not changing rooms of ballroom dance clubs where the chukka that ingests the most $e_men gets the most accolades. So much for democratic principles of expression. You have reached the heights of cultism by your sorry attempt to suppress dissent. I am providing years of research (by someone else) and historical facts on this blog and you have the audacity to complain.

The relevancy of my previous post couldn’t be simpler

A pattern of historic and contemporary Indian Hegemony = Destabilized South Asia including afghanistan

Sorry, this did not have the same level of relevancy as your stories about dance perouettes and triple-axle landings into other men’s laps.

One of the reasons Myra stopped regulating is because she was accused by Indians of … you guessed it ISI connections. Now you want the respected journalist back to blacklist pakistanis commenting on pakistan-tagged posts? This is the web not indian ‘administered’ kashmir.

I also enjoyed the fact that immediately after your boycott, you address one of my many interesting posts.

“Pakistan has more than once been described as the world’s most dangerous country. Its wild northern reaches remain host to various branches of the Pakistani Taliban and likely to al Qaeda (Osama bin Laden is thought to be among them), while other militant groups make gains closer to urban areas. The bomb that went off here left six dead in Quetta, in the country’s southwest. More than 3 million Pakistani civilians were displaced by “counterinsurgency” operations in 2009 — the largest single movement of people since the Rwandan genocide. Meanwhile, President Asif Ali Zardari’s democratically elected government looks hapless — unable to gain any measure of civilian control over a nuclear-armed military obsessed with planning for a war with India, or an intelligence service that stands accused of abetting the Afghan Taliban.”

PS: I’m surprised that they did not find any entry from India in all those 60 photos from 60 different countries.

Mirza:
1. @Now you want the respected journalist back to blacklist pakistanis commenting on pakistan-tagged posts? This is the web not indian ‘administered’ kashmir.”
—-whining! This blog is Reuters not Reformistan nor is it POK. I know Myra;s blogs rules. You are doing what she asked not to do in the past. No using Reuters for personal agendas, which exactly u r doing.
2. If you cannot post the relevant stuff, keep your cherry picked and stolen research at your website. Needy will visit you.
3. @Indian Hegemony: Go google retired Pakistan Air Marshal Asghar Khan (in Dawn) who did not mince words and clearly stated that Pakistan attacked India in each time, including 1971.
4. @Discussion forums are not changing rooms of ballroom dance clubs where the chukka that ingests the most $e_men gets the most accolades.”
—lol…you are such a punk. Listen, I don’t take ur pakistani sisters to such places. Nor do I need to know your tastes. That you are gay is sufficient. Are u provoking me that I stick bamboo in ur a$$ and stick it till ur tonsils that you cannot turn to watch the action behind you? Drop this BS—u started u stop. What’s the Afghan # u r serving now? 30million could mean your generations will have to do your job.
5. Did you watch India-Pakistan cricket match? Harbahjan Singh’s six was so sweet. Ahem!

@I also enjoyed the fact that immediately after your boycott, you address one of my many interesting posts.”
—that’s right—-one of many. I cherry picked. lol…. how about commenting on substance rather than this celebration? ..lol

It’s not how many separatist or insurgent movements a country has, but how effective they are that matters. The Naxalites may have a large presence in India, but nowhere were they ever administering districts like the Taliban were in Swat.

More importantly for the rest of us, Indian instability is contained inside India. Insurgents from India aren’t killing Westerners and the citizens of neighbouring countries. This is not the case with Pakistan.

^ The issue at hand isn’t how unstable Pakistan is. Nobody really cared about Somalia until its problems started impacting the rest of the world. ie Al-Shabaab.

If Pakistan wasn’t supporting groups that were attempting to de-stabilize Afghanistan and/or India (via Kashmir in particular), nobody would really be bothered, even if they devolved into another Somalia.

Unfortunately, the more they fail, the more they try to drag their neighbours down with them while threatening global peace and security (for example through proliferation). And this is sadly, what makes them relevant.

[…] Given the row over General Stanley McChrystal’s comments in Rolling Stone magazine, the slow process of repairing relations between India and Pakistan is unlikely to get much attention. But there is some movement there, which is worth watching closely since the relationship between the two plays such a defining role in the attitudes of the Pakistan Army and by extension, in Pakistan’s perceived approach to Afghanistan. […]

Kieth, I am pretty sure I recall an ill-fated intervention in Somalia in the 90s before Al-shabab was on anyone’s radar. The western rescue party in shining armor were rescued themselves by those ungrateful evil Pakistanisn.

I understand though. Anything older than last week is ancient history.

[…] contrary they continue to play a strong role in the perceptions of Taliban commanders in the field, as outlined in a report released by the London School of Economics in June. Nor does it suggest that Pakistan’s own approach to the many militant groups based on its […]

Posted by On WikiLeaks, Pakistan and Afghanistan | America at War | Report as abusive

Oct 27, 2011

8:11 am UTC

Well I do not agree with these things, not like that, ISI behind these things is that,, Pakistan’s defense forces including army, air force and navy personal have been killed by martyred by the terrorists.Over 5000 of our security personal have been killed by terrorists.Important military installations including GHQ have been targeted. Compounds belonging to our intelligence agencies have been bombed in many major cites across the country. Let us not forget the FC and other law enforcement’s agencies personal who laid down their lives in this fight.