It's probably safe to assume that in no semi-serious game will the no-force-org rules be used. Could be good for a laugh I guess, but really we didn't need it in the book to be able to do that.

I'm more interested in the other changes, with the psychic phase and the objective cards. I feel like the objective cards won't see much use either.

On the first reading of the rumors of the psychic phase, it looks like it makes armies with one or two psykers pretty much useless against armies that have a lot. Is this how it works in fantasy too? If you generate the dice to block powers for all of your psykers, how is something like a lone primaris psyker ever going to cast anything against ten warlocks and 2 farseers?

Of course we have no idea how any of this works yet

I'm not dreading this release, but I'm also not excited about it. Hoping for the best, but really don't want to spend ~100 bucks on a new book already.

I'm not so quick to dismiss the Unbound army list. The possibility intrigues me. Keep in mind that lists that stick to the FOC will have in game rewards AND the more extreme a list becomes the greater its weakness will be. Unbound lists have the potential to exploit those very weaknesses to the fullest.

Generalissimo_Fred wrote:I'm not so quick to dismiss the Unbound army list. The possibility intrigues me. Keep in mind that lists that stick to the FOC will have in game rewards AND the more extreme a list becomes the greater its weakness will be. Unbound lists have the potential to exploit those very weaknesses to the fullest.

Interesting.

I don't actually find games between an extreme list and it's equally extreme counter-list all that interesting. R-P-S meta development is fine for games like M:tG that take all of five minutes to play, but if I'm investing a couple of hours into a game, I want it to be a bit more interesting than which of us happened to bring the counter to the other's weakness.

Not sure if that's what you're referring to.

"All very successful commanders are prima donnas and must be so treated."

Fred I agree with you that the extreme lists will have more weaknesses. A 5 or 6 heldrake list is annoying, but it's probably not going to win any big tournaments.

I think being able to take anything is more powerful when used to fill holes in an already good army, rather than taking it to an extreme.

-If you really want to go first, anyone can take coteaz and vect. - Want fortune on your ovessa star? Stick a couple farseers in there. - Hell, you could even take ovessa star AND beaststar at the same time. Fill the rest of the list with jetbikes, no need for those tau troops. - Need cheap scoring and anti air? 3 or 4 nightsyches coming right up. Maybe you can even fit one or two in the ovessa and beast star list. - Inquisitor w/ servo skulls to block scouting for everybody.

This is just the tip of the iceberg, but you get the point. Think about how much the internet hates the amount of sources armies can already take, this is so so so much worse.

im looking forward to see what ridiculousness results from the unbound armies. I predict Flamewars starting in all forums as soon as these rumors become reality. If one steps back for a second to see the general trend and the direction in which GW is taking the game, it seems that they are optimizing the randomness and removing almost all predictability. This is good because it makes it more fun, but also bad because it reduces strategy and tactics. either way, it is What it is, so lets run with it.

swampthing wrote:... This is good because it makes it more fun, but also bad because it reduces strategy and tactics. ...

I think this is a poor use of the word fun. I believe that if you read any analysis of game criticism, the word fun is generally disallowed because it is nebulous. What if your idea of fun IS strategy and tactics?

I'm going to hold judgement until I actually read all of 7th ed. But the general trend away from a strategy game, and towards a random-effect dice game is not something I enjoy, nor consider fun. If I wanted to play a dice game...

swampthing wrote:... This is good because it makes it more fun, but also bad because it reduces strategy and tactics. ...

I think this is a poor use of the word fun. I believe that if you read any analysis of game criticism, the word fun is generally disallowed because it is nebulous. What if your idea of fun IS strategy and tactics?

I'm going to hold judgement until I actually read all of 7th ed. But the general trend away from a strategy game, and towards a random-effect dice game is not something I enjoy, nor consider fun. If I wanted to play a dice game...

Generalissimo_Fred wrote:I'm not so quick to dismiss the Unbound army list. The possibility intrigues me. Keep in mind that lists that stick to the FOC will have in game rewards AND the more extreme a list becomes the greater its weakness will be. Unbound lists have the potential to exploit those very weaknesses to the fullest.

Interesting.

I don't actually find games between an extreme list and it's equally extreme counter-list all that interesting. R-P-S meta development is fine for games like M:tG that take all of five minutes to play, but if I'm investing a couple of hours into a game, I want it to be a bit more interesting than which of us happened to bring the counter to the other's weakness.

Not sure if that's what you're referring to.

I think what I meant was the potential to easily have the counter to an extreme list at a tourney would in of itself prevent the list from ever showing up .... at least in competent hands.

The problem has not been extreme lists, all tank IG lists have been around since 3rd-4th edition, the problem is the unkillable units which have come about because of poorly written psychic abilities and allies. Well 7th is going to change both of those.

DaGrippster wrote:Fred I agree with you that the extreme lists will have more weaknesses. A 5 or 6 heldrake list is annoying, but it's probably not going to win any big tournaments.

I think being able to take anything is more powerful when used to fill holes in an already good army, rather than taking it to an extreme.

-If you really want to go first, anyone can take coteaz and vect. - Want fortune on your ovessa star? Stick a couple farseers in there. - Hell, you could even take ovessa star AND beaststar at the same time. Fill the rest of the list with jetbikes, no need for those tau troops. - Need cheap scoring and anti air? 3 or 4 nightsyches coming right up. Maybe you can even fit one or two in the ovessa and beast star list. - Inquisitor w/ servo skulls to block scouting for everybody.

This is just the tip of the iceberg, but you get the point. Think about how much the internet hates the amount of sources armies can already take, this is so so so much worse.

The allies matrix is getting reworked. So are the psychic powers and the ability to cast psychic powers. That eliminates all of your deathstars you just listed. Try unbound with no allies and with none of the psychic abilities reliable enough to successfully cast half the time. Unbound doesn't sound so scary then, especially when the other side is getting in game benifits. Maybe +2 to sieze? Maybe get to choose to go first or second. Maybe pick table side? Maybe the ability to extend the game 1 more turn after the roll to end the game? These abilities have been in the game before.

Generalissimo_Fred wrote:The allies matrix is getting reworked. So are the psychic powers and the ability to cast psychic powers. That eliminates all of your deathstars you just listed. Try unbound with no allies and with none of the psychic abilities reliable enough to successfully cast half the time. Unbound doesn't sound so scary then, especially when the other side is getting in game benifits. Maybe +2 to sieze? Maybe get to choose to go first or second. Maybe pick table side? Maybe the ability to extend the game 1 more turn after the roll to end the game? These abilities have been in the game before.

Well, we could debate all day about how the rules that MIGHT be there MIGHT effect the game.

There is a photographed copy of the White Dwarf which details the Dark Angel Librarian Ezekiel using the new Daemonology psychic lore to sacrifice his body and summon a Bloodthirster to fight Tyranids.