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All Time DraftFantasy league where players of the past and present meet.

ATD 2012 - Draft Thread VII

For the 3rd year in a row the Fireworks are very pleased to select with the 589th pick C Art Chapman

I couldn't say no to Chapman as my 4th line centre to pair with Vaive. Chapman is very underated around here. He's led the league in Assists twice, as well as a 2nd and 5th. He has a 2nd All star team selection, he can play on my 2nd unit PP as a playmaker and was known to play "too defensively" as well.

OK, guys, let’s debate. For a 4th line – Rick Vaive or Al Secord? The way I see it, Vaive was better offensively, scoring 50 goals three times with little help. But Secord topped 40 three times too – he had help though. Secord was a legitimate heavyweight, while Vaive was not, but Vaive is tough enough to handle himself too. If you’re building a 4th line, who do you want?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sturminator

Vecens selects Lynn Patrick.

I should apologize for not posting this earlier. vecens left a list with Eagle, who transferred it on to me, but unfortunately I'm in Cali on vacation right now, and slept through vecens' clock. IMO, he should not get a clock deduction for this, as he did leave a list.

I understand why he falls and all, but it just seems so wrong seeing him go right after Adam Deadmarsh!

Quote:

Originally Posted by MadArcand

Whalers select Ryan Smyth, LW

Wasn’t it just last draft you were arguing how bad he was, in a Smyth-Morrow-Doan comparison? Or am I mistaken?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dreakmur

The only thing anyone could say against Trotz was that he hasn't been deep in the play-offs. Nobody could even claim it was his fault. We just got the "it's an unknow". Now he has a guy who's a proven winner working with him, and that has to eliminate the unknown element.

As a coach, I have always understood my strengths and weaknesses, and brought in assistant coaches who can fill in the gaps. I am not a motivator, so I always bring in a guy who can give those inspiratiional speeches and do the "RAH RAH RAH" stuff on the bench. I'm also not great in terms of Xs and Os, so I bring in somebody who can be creative in finding ways to beat certain teams. Lastly, despite the fact that I coach defense, I'm not real great at teaching defensive zone coverage, so I usually need somebody to help there. This year, I managed to get a former OHL defenseman - he can obviously help with th D-zone stuff, but he's a great motivator too. I also got a former AAA head coach to help with the Xs and Os.

(I know you read that and ask, "are you good at anything?" )

That’s exactly what I was asking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vecens24

Yeah...I'm surprised he's the first guy of the MLD defenseman that were discovered and researched last draft to make the jump, but I see him as a definite #6 here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EagleBelfour

And if we discredit every players who use/sell drugs or done anything illegal in their life ... the list would be quite long. I prefer writing and reading on the great accomplishment of great hockey players through history than nitpicking on the errors they've commited in their life. I don't know why Jiri Bubla ended up smuggling drugs in the mid-1980's, and although it would be quite an interesting read, it's not my main focus in the ATD. We could discredit Theoren Fleury for stuffing his nose with every drug he could find, we could discredit Sprague Cleghorn for conducting himself on the ice in a way that would get him jailed numerous years in today's society etc ... I prefer staying clear of this path, as we have little clue as to why someone end up the way they were. And to be honest, I can confidently say I'm not someone in a position to judge.

I'm an amateur hockey historian, not a psychologist.

I agree with you on this one. I don’t think it affects him as a player, or what he accomplished on the ice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hedberg

Or worse. Being coached by your future self would be awkward

I think it would be beneficial. He could stop you from doing things that he knows won’t turn out well.

Or would that disrupt the space/time continuum?

Quote:

Originally Posted by EagleBelfour

I wonder I much he played as a left wing in his career. When researching Taffy Abel and Billy Burch, his name pop up more than once as a winger.

That would explain his poor all-star recognition despite being 2nd in scoring among defensemen twice.

OK, guys, let’s debate. For a 4th line – Rick Vaive or Al Secord? The way I see it, Vaive was better offensively, scoring 50 goals three times with little help. But Secord topped 40 three times too – he had help though. Secord was a legitimate heavyweight, while Vaive was not, but Vaive is tough enough to handle himself too. If you’re building a 4th line, who do you want?
.

The major reason I went with Vaive was for him to be my 2nd unit PP net presence. Yes Secord had that 1 massive season where he was 1st in PP goals, but outside of that he only has 2 other seasons in double digit PP goals. Vaive has a lot more consistency with 7 seasons of double digit PP goals and several other 8-9 seasons.

there were also numerous quotes talking about Vaive parking himself infront of the net etc..

That's the point. I like going with a photo of a player on a team he wasn't particularly good on (I tried finding a picture of Secord with the Flyers) for the thread and then a picture of a player on the team he is known for in the bio.

A Vezina, Stanley Cup, and Conn Smyth will do that. I'd say he pretty much doubled his career value last year.

Exactly. After a year like last year, his peak value is now beyond reproach IMO. Career value will likely always be shaky which is why he'll likely always be an elite back-up. Buoyed by the fact that he doesn't need to play every night to be effective.

__________________
Every post comes with the Nalyd Psycho Seal of Approval.

Inglewood round out the back end with a player described as "The Best Defenseman Nobody Talks About".

One of the NHL's highest-scoring defensemen of the last decade, but also a very good defensive player with great hockey sense and instincts. He has been leaned on heavily in Nashville and Philly, as well as internationally where he's represented Finland at 4 Olympics, 1 World Cup, and 8 World Championships. He's averaged over 22:42 minutes a game throughout his career, and that number jumps to 25:28 minutes in the playoffs. Extremely durable, and a guy who will willingly block shots and take a hit to make a play. He's a fantastic powerplay QB, and not bad on the PK either. One of those guys who looks more and more impressive every time you watch him play.

And he looks great in soft-focus. Nothing short of dreamy:

Kimmo Timonen

Nalyd has been PMed

So badly do I want to take Kimmo Timonen one of these days. Just a fantastic player and teammate. But, I fear people are always going to take him before I can justify taking him. I think I'm the only Flyers fan in this thing(and there are no Preds fans), so I know Timonen as well as anyone in this. His greatness is not something you can quantify in stats or all star voting. His hockey sense, positioning, and ability to think the game at a high level is where his greatest ability lies.

Timonen is a great pick. If he played in the 1980s, he'd probably be canonized around pick 400.

Kimmo is another one of those bottom-unit guys who has a single high-end skill (PP quarterback, in this case) that pretty much defines his value. If you put that skill to good use, he is an excellent pick here. If he's just going to get bottom-pairing ES icetime, there are still better defensemen out there.

With the run of goaltenders starting, I'll scoop a backup whom I considered in the same tier as Rogatien Vachon and Eddie Giacomin (although behind both of them) and a clear BGA in my mind since Vachon (who was the BGA over near half-a-dozen goaltender himself). I'm not kidding, I've been toying with the idea of adding him (or Vachon) in my lineup for the past 200 picks!

With our 19th selection, the 590th overall in this year All-Time Draft, l'équipe nationale de France est très fier de sélectionner, from Sutherland, Saskatchewan, Canada, le gardien de but Chuck Rayner

I was sold by Dreakmur biography and I thought last year placement was a good reflection of where he belong in an All-Time Draft Context (361stOV, 29thG taken). I'm not sure why he fell that time around.

PS. It will be hard to argue that L'équipe nationale de France won't have an advantage in goal against most team with Dominik Hasek and Chuck Rayner as their goaltending duo.

Kimmo is another one of those bottom-unit guys who has a single high-end skill (PP quarterback, in this case) that pretty much defines his value. If you put that skill to good use, he is an excellent pick here. If he's just going to get bottom-pairing ES icetime, there are still better defensemen out there.

I still think he's a better even strength player than several of the guys who are drafted as bottom pairing puck movers. Timonen is pretty solid defensively and adequate at getting the puck to his forwards.

He's also something of a big game player, based off his playoff ice time and All Star nod at the Olympics

Rayner is a good pick. Toyed with the idea. But I really liked Thomas' playoff success and ability to succeed in a reduced role.

I won't be lying, Rayner and Thomas were #2 and #3 on my list since at least 6 full rounds (Vachon was first). You pretty much explain why Thomas is a great backup in this draft. I also had the incentive of wanting to see Hasek and Thomas flopping around all season long!

Explain what you mean about Timonen's playoff icetime. i haven't researched this, but I want to just make sure he's not being given credit for being more or less the same player, but playing in a few long OT games that made his average TOI spike.

Explain what you mean about Timonen's playoff icetime. i haven't researched this, but I want to just make sure he's not being given credit for being more or less the same player, but playing in a few long OT games that made his average TOI spike.

I think it's enough of a bump to be more than just a couple deep OT games. He's averaged 25:28 in the playoffs over the course of his career, which is about 3 minutes higher than his regular season average. In his 7 playoff seasons, his lowest per-game average was 24:16 per game in 2004. In 2010 he was at almost 27 minutes a night for the Flyers' run to the finals, and he led the team in both PP and PK iceteam.

I think it's enough of a bump to be more than just a couple deep OT games. He's averaged 25:28 in the playoffs over the course of his career, which is about 3 minutes higher than his regular season average. In his 7 playoff seasons, his lowest per-game average was 24:16 per game in 2004. In 2010 he was at almost 27 minutes a night for the Flyers' run to the finals, and he led the team in both PP and PK iceteam.

he was getting slightly less icetime prior to Nashville's first playoff season and is not gettign much this season. So his actual TOI average in the playoffs from 2004-2011 is 23:04, meaning he gets 2:24 more per game in the playoffs.

Looking at other top defensemen around the league, I don't think that this is statistically out of line.

Just looking at his own team, for example, in 2010, Pronger went up 3:00 in the playoffs. Timonen went up 3:30. Carle went up 2:30. Coburn went up 4:00.

If the average length of a Kimmo Timonen playoff game was just 66:16 then it would explain the icetime spike 100%. It is possible that his average is that high, but not likely. It's probably somewhere in the middle. So some OT can explain it partially, and the fact that #1-2 defensemen tend to start getting a larger share of the icetime in the playoffs (usually at the expense of the 3rd pairing) explains the rest. If there was a statistically significant difference here I would give it credit for sure. But I don't think there is.