The TV news yesterday regarding the fire in the block of flats in Londonmentioned that during the refurbishment something that might have beencalled 'fire stop' was removed from between the floors. Doubtless it wasreplaced, but the suspicion is that the fire spread from floor to floornot necessarily via the cladding. What is this 'fire stop' stuff. and ifit wasn't there or nor properly replaced, could that account for a fastspread of fire?

Post by SpikeThe TV news yesterday regarding the fire in the block of flats in Londonmentioned that during the refurbishment something that might have beencalled 'fire stop' was removed from between the floors. Doubtless it wasreplaced, but the suspicion is that the fire spread from floor to floornot necessarily via the cladding. What is this 'fire stop' stuff. and ifit wasn't there or nor properly replaced, could that account for a fastspread of fire?

Why not wait until the facts are known? It is bad enough having the'armchair experts' on the TV etc without you chipping in.

--Suspect someone is claiming a benefit under false pretences? IncapacityBenefit or Personal Independence Payment when they don't need it? Theyare depriving those in real need!

Post by SpikeThe TV news yesterday regarding the fire in the block of flats in Londonmentioned that during the refurbishment something that might have beencalled 'fire stop' was removed from between the floors. Doubtless it wasreplaced, but the suspicion is that the fire spread from floor to floornot necessarily via the cladding. What is this 'fire stop' stuff. and ifit wasn't there or nor properly replaced, could that account for a fastspread of fire?

Why not wait until the facts are known? It is bad enough having the'armchair experts' on the TV etc without you chipping in.

Have to agree with you there brian..no offence spike but the media arefilling time with the most crazy speculation.......there are two separatethings fire stops and cavity barriers ....some can be combustible...andthey only slow down fire spread and do not stop it.....in a ten mega wattflat fire it spreads out the window and any cladding and insulation has toperform well not to spread fire to the flat above....we may find that whatwas built met all the regulation requirements and the materials used weretested and given a good fire rating .....all I know is that the many overcladdings I approve met the regulations at the time but that is not to say Ithought what was done was a good idea just fashion and an attempt to solvedampness problems...... the high flats should have been demolished notmessed about with if they were failing as they were fire safe asbuilt.....ten years ago Vipond were pushing their domestic sprinklers butfitting was voluntary and was rarely done .....anyway my money is on bombmaking equipment in a 'fridge just to add to the speculation ......Ronanpoint met the regulations at the time and now we have disproportionatecollapse regulations for buildings above four stories....we live and learnunless we live in a high flat and we might not.......the rich can avoid suchthings ......

Post by SpikeThe TV news yesterday regarding the fire in the block of flats in Londonmentioned that during the refurbishment something that might have beencalled 'fire stop' was removed from between the floors. Doubtless it wasreplaced, but the suspicion is that the fire spread from floor to floornot necessarily via the cladding. What is this 'fire stop' stuff. and ifit wasn't there or nor properly replaced, could that account for a fastspread of fire?

Why not wait until the facts are known? It is bad enough having the'armchair experts' on the TV etc without you chipping in.

Have to agree with you there brian..no offence spike but the media arefilling time with the most crazy speculation.......there are two separatethings fire stops and cavity barriers ....some can be combustible...andthey only slow down fire spread and do not stop it.....in a ten mega wattflat fire it spreads out the window and any cladding and insulation has toperform well not to spread fire to the flat above....we may find that whatwas built met all the regulation requirements and the materials used weretested and given a good fire rating .....all I know is that the many overcladdings I approve met the regulations at the time but that is not to sayI thought what was done was a good idea just fashion and an attempt tosolve dampness problems...... the high flats should have been demolishednot messed about with if they were failing as they were fire safe asbuilt.....ten years ago Vipond were pushing their domestic sprinklers butfitting was voluntary and was rarely done .....anyway my money is on bombmaking equipment in a 'fridge just to add to the speculation ......Ronanpoint met the regulations at the time and now we have disproportionatecollapse regulations for buildings above four stories....we live and learnunless we live in a high flat and we might not.......the rich can avoidsuch things ......

Post by SpikeThe TV news yesterday regarding the fire in the block of flats in Londonmentioned that during the refurbishment something that might have beencalled 'fire stop' was removed from between the floors. Doubtless it wasreplaced, but the suspicion is that the fire spread from floor to floornot necessarily via the cladding. What is this 'fire stop' stuff. and ifit wasn't there or nor properly replaced, could that account for a fastspread of fire?

Why not wait until the facts are known? It is bad enough having the'armchair experts' on the TV etc without you chipping in.

Have to agree with you there brian..no offence spike but the media arefilling time with the most crazy speculation.......there are two separatethings fire stops and cavity barriers ....some can be combustible...andthey only slow down fire spread and do not stop it.....in a ten mega wattflat fire it spreads out the window and any cladding and insulation hasto perform well not to spread fire to the flat above....we may find thatwhat was built met all the regulation requirements and the materials usedwere tested and given a good fire rating .....all I know is that the manyover claddings I approve met the regulations at the time but that is notto say I thought what was done was a good idea just fashion and anattempt to solve dampness problems...... the high flats should have beendemolished not messed about with if they were failing as they were firesafe as built.....ten years ago Vipond were pushing their domesticsprinklers but fitting was voluntary and was rarely done .....anyway mymoney is on bomb making equipment in a 'fridge just to add to thespeculation ......Ronan point met the regulations at the time and now wehave disproportionate collapse regulations for buildings above fourstories....we live and learn unless we live in a high flat and we mightnot.......the rich can avoid such things ......

A half-pint of liquid butane, turned into a combustible gas and mixed withair, then then burned in a fraction of a second?

So if the energy contained in a half pint of liquid Butane mixed with airwas released under control you could power a 1kW load for 10,000 hours? Thatlooks like very cheap energy, but there must be a snag.

A half-pint of liquid butane, turned into a combustible gas and mixedwith air, then then burned in a fraction of a second?

So if the energy contained in a half pint of liquid Butane mixed withair was released under control you could power a 1kW load for 10,000hours? That looks like very cheap energy, but there must be a snag.

A half-pint of liquid butane, turned into a combustible gas and mixedwith air, then then burned in a fraction of a second?

So if the energy contained in a half pint of liquid Butane mixed withair was released under control you could power a 1kW load for 10,000hours? That looks like very cheap energy, but there must be a snag.

1/2 a pint of Butane is about 0.56 litre

Butane has a calorific value of 26MJ/litre

So your 1/2 pint contains 14.5MJ of energy, which is a lot of bang ifyou let it all out at once.

Your 1KW load could run for about 4 hours , but owing to the efficiencyof converting this to electricity, say 30% , you'd only get about 1.2Hours.

A half-pint of liquid butane, turned into a combustible gas and mixedwith air, then then burned in a fraction of a second?

So if the energy contained in a half pint of liquid Butane mixed with airwas released under control you could power a 1kW load for 10,000 hours?That looks like very cheap energy, but there must be a snag.

1/2 a pint of Butane is about 0.56 litreButane has a calorific value of 26MJ/litreSo your 1/2 pint contains 14.5MJ of energy, which is a lot of bang if youlet it all out at once.Your 1KW load could run for about 4 hours , but owing to the efficiency ofconverting this to electricity, say 30% , you'd only get about 1.2 Hours.A a possibly related item on butane, fridges, DIY chemistry andexplosions.<Http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2015/10/hash_oil_produced_with_butane.html>

Sorry, I need to drink less water and more alcohol. I was assuming you got10Megawatt-hours worth of energy, whilst the explosion would only last a fewseconds at the most. The rest of the energy would come from anything aroundthat had been heated to its' flash point and was now also burning.

A half-pint of liquid butane, turned into a combustible gas and mixedwith air, then then burned in a fraction of a second?

So if the energy contained in a half pint of liquid Butane mixed withair was released under control you could power a 1kW load for 10,000hours? That looks like very cheap energy, but there must be a snag.

1/2 a pint of Butane is about 0.56 litreButane has a calorific value of 26MJ/litreSo your 1/2 pint contains 14.5MJ of energy, which is a lot of bang ifyou let it all out at once.Your 1KW load could run for about 4 hours , but owing to the efficiencyof converting this to electricity, say 30% , you'd only get about 1.2Hours.A a possibly related item on butane, fridges, DIY chemistry andexplosions.<Http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2015/10/hash_oil_produced_with_butane.html>Brian

I expect that the balance of the 10MW comes from the rest of the flat'sstructure and contents burning.

A half-pint of liquid butane, turned into a combustible gas and mixedwith air, then then burned in a fraction of a second?

So if the energy contained in a half pint of liquid Butane mixed withair was released under control you could power a 1kW load for 10,000hours? That looks like very cheap energy, but there must be a snag.

1/2 a pint of Butane is about 0.56 litreButane has a calorific value of 26MJ/litreSo your 1/2 pint contains 14.5MJ of energy, which is a lot of bang ifyou let it all out at once.Your 1KW load could run for about 4 hours , but owing to the efficiencyof converting this to electricity, say 30% , you'd only get about 1.2Hours.A a possibly related item on butane, fridges, DIY chemistry andexplosions.<Http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2015/10/hash_oil_produced_with_butane.html>

I expect that the balance of the 10MW comes from the rest of the flat'sstructure and contents burning.

Time for some arithmetic, and some basic unit definition.

1 Joule (J) = 1 Watt-second (Ws). They are measures of Energy.

A Watt (or 1 Joule per second) is a unit of Power.

Power is the rate at which Energy is expended.

Half a pint of liquid Butane contains 14.5 MegaJoules (MJ) of Energy.

If this is released in 10 milliseconds, typical of a 'gas explosion' ina small building, the amount of Power released in that time is 14.5 MJ /.01 second = 1.45 Gigawatts.

Or, if this Energy was released in 10,000 hours (36 Megaseconds), thePower would be 14.5 MJ / 36 Ms = 0.4 Watts.

A half-pint of liquid butane, turned into a combustible gas and mixedwith air, then then burned in a fraction of a second?

So if the energy contained in a half pint of liquid Butane mixed withair was released under control you could power a 1kW load for 10,000hours? That looks like very cheap energy, but there must be a snag.

1/2 a pint of Butane is about 0.56 litreButane has a calorific value of 26MJ/litreSo your 1/2 pint contains 14.5MJ of energy, which is a lot of bang ifyou let it all out at once.Your 1KW load could run for about 4 hours , but owing to the efficiencyof converting this to electricity, say 30% , you'd only get about 1.2Hours.A a possibly related item on butane, fridges, DIY chemistry andexplosions.<Http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2015/10/hash_oil_produced_with_butane.html>

I expect that the balance of the 10MW comes from the rest of the flat'sstructure and contents burning.

Time for some arithmetic, and some basic unit definition.1 Joule (J) = 1 Watt-second (Ws). They are measures of Energy.A Watt (or 1 Joule per second) is a unit of Power.Power is the rate at which Energy is expended.Half a pint of liquid Butane contains 14.5 MegaJoules (MJ) of Energy.If this is released in 10 milliseconds, typical of a 'gas explosion' ina small building, the amount of Power released in that time is 14.5 MJ /.01 second = 1.45 Gigawatts.Or, if this Energy was released in 10,000 hours (36 Megaseconds), thePower would be 14.5 MJ / 36 Ms = 0.4 Watts.Your electricity meter reads Energy consumed in units calledkilowatt-hours (kWh), which is the Energy consumed in 1 hour (or 3600seconds) by something using 1000 Watts of Power. So 1 kWh = 1000 x 3600= 3.6 MJ.HTH

Not really. When the fire brigade talk of a flat fire producing 10MW ofpower they are clearly talking about somehting happening over minutes ortens of minutes and therefore causing a distinct nuisance to adjacentstructures, not somehting happening for milliseconds.

Post by SpikeTime for some arithmetic, and some basic unit definition.1 Joule (J) = 1 Watt-second (Ws). They are measures of Energy.A Watt (or 1 Joule per second) is a unit of Power.Power is the rate at which Energy is expended.Half a pint of liquid Butane contains 14.5 MegaJoules (MJ) of Energy.If this is released in 10 milliseconds, typical of a 'gas explosion' ina small building, the amount of Power released in that time is 14.5 MJ /.01 second = 1.45 Gigawatts.Or, if this Energy was released in 10,000 hours (36 Megaseconds), thePower would be 14.5 MJ / 36 Ms = 0.4 Watts.Your electricity meter reads Energy consumed in units calledkilowatt-hours (kWh), which is the Energy consumed in 1 hour (or 3600seconds) by something using 1000 Watts of Power. So 1 kWh = 1000 x 3600= 3.6 MJ.HTH

Not really. When the fire brigade talk of a flat fire producing 10MW ofpower they are clearly talking about somehting happening over minutes ortens of minutes and therefore causing a distinct nuisance to adjacentstructures, not somehting happening for milliseconds.

Except if it's a gas explosion, which means that the fire crews will besearching rubble.

Firstly, there were enough posts in this sub-thread to suggest thatpeople are confused with the meanings of the terms 'power' and 'energy'.Perhaps I should have posted this as a separate thread. Mea culpa.

Secondly, loose terms like '10 MW' are in themselves unhelpful unless itis clear from the context that the meaning is either 'power' or anincorrectly used term for 'energy'. If a fire with an energy expressedas '10 MW' occurs lasting an hour, then the actual power driving it isonly 3kW [1], which is hardly an unusual figure in a domestic kitchensetting.

[1] 3000W x 3600s = 10.8 x 10^6 Ws = 10.8 MJ or '10MW'

Thirdly, the thing to come out of these calculations is the surprisinglyhigh energy contents of organic materials, e.g. butane in this case, orpetrol, or plastic 'insulation', or chip fat. The latter is ~38 MJ/kg,so a two-pint chip pan fire burning for 10 minutes has a power of (38 x10^6)/600 > 6kW. Add in some furnishings and you've got a '10MW' fire.Throw in some tons of plastic insulation round a building, and you havea serious problem.

I once attended a presentation on fire safety. The ex-fireman giving itdescribed a fire in a Woolworth store. The alarms went off, but thepeople in the cafe on the first floor were having their lunch and soignored the warnings until it was too late for them to get out of thearea. He was the first fireman to reach the cafe, and he was in tears ashe spoke.

Never fanny about with fire safety, be aware of the energy content ofmaterials, plan your escape routes, and have an ad-hoc smoke mask inmind. The clearest part of a smoke-filled room is the inch above thefloor. Use it to breath, avoid smoke, and navigate to your chosen exit.I also carry a small torch and a Metropolitan Police whistle - thelatter is *far* more effective than shouting.

Post by SpikeTime for some arithmetic, and some basic unit definition.1 Joule (J) = 1 Watt-second (Ws). They are measures of Energy.A Watt (or 1 Joule per second) is a unit of Power.Power is the rate at which Energy is expended.Half a pint of liquid Butane contains 14.5 MegaJoules (MJ) of Energy.If this is released in 10 milliseconds, typical of a 'gas explosion' ina small building, the amount of Power released in that time is 14.5 MJ /.01 second = 1.45 Gigawatts.Or, if this Energy was released in 10,000 hours (36 Megaseconds), thePower would be 14.5 MJ / 36 Ms = 0.4 Watts.Your electricity meter reads Energy consumed in units calledkilowatt-hours (kWh), which is the Energy consumed in 1 hour (or 3600seconds) by something using 1000 Watts of Power. So 1 kWh = 1000 x 3600= 3.6 MJ.HTH

Not really. When the fire brigade talk of a flat fire producing 10MW ofpower they are clearly talking about somehting happening over minutes ortens of minutes and therefore causing a distinct nuisance to adjacentstructures, not somehting happening for milliseconds.

Except if it's a gas explosion, which means that the fire crews will besearching rubble.Firstly, there were enough posts in this sub-thread to suggest that peopleare confused with the meanings of the terms 'power' and 'energy'. PerhapsI should have posted this as a separate thread. Mea culpa.Secondly, loose terms like '10 MW' are in themselves unhelpful unless itis clear from the context that the meaning is either 'power' or anincorrectly used term for 'energy'. If a fire with an energy expressed as'10 MW' occurs lasting an hour, then the actual power driving it is only3kW [1], which is hardly an unusual figure in a domestic kitchen setting.[1] 3000W x 3600s = 10.8 x 10^6 Ws = 10.8 MJ or '10MW'Thirdly, the thing to come out of these calculations is the surprisinglyhigh energy contents of organic materials, e.g. butane in this case, orpetrol, or plastic 'insulation', or chip fat. The latter is ~38 MJ/kg, soa two-pint chip pan fire burning for 10 minutes has a power of (38 x10^6)/600 > 6kW. Add in some furnishings and you've got a '10MW' fire.Throw in some tons of plastic insulation round a building, and you have aserious problem.I once attended a presentation on fire safety. The ex-fireman giving itdescribed a fire in a Woolworth store. The alarms went off, but the peoplein the cafe on the first floor were having their lunch and so ignored thewarnings until it was too late for them to get out of the area. He was thefirst fireman to reach the cafe, and he was in tears as he spoke.Never fanny about with fire safety, be aware of the energy content ofmaterials, plan your escape routes, and have an ad-hoc smoke mask in mind.The clearest part of a smoke-filled room is the inch above the floor. Useit to breath, avoid smoke, and navigate to your chosen exit. I also carrya small torch and a Metropolitan Police whistle - the latter is *far* moreeffective than shouting.Spike

Post by SpikeTime for some arithmetic, and some basic unit definition.1 Joule (J) = 1 Watt-second (Ws). They are measures of Energy.A Watt (or 1 Joule per second) is a unit of Power.Power is the rate at which Energy is expended.Half a pint of liquid Butane contains 14.5 MegaJoules (MJ) of Energy.If this is released in 10 milliseconds, typical of a 'gas explosion' ina small building, the amount of Power released in that time is 14.5 MJ /.01 second = 1.45 Gigawatts.Or, if this Energy was released in 10,000 hours (36 Megaseconds), thePower would be 14.5 MJ / 36 Ms = 0.4 Watts.Your electricity meter reads Energy consumed in units calledkilowatt-hours (kWh), which is the Energy consumed in 1 hour (or 3600seconds) by something using 1000 Watts of Power. So 1 kWh = 1000 x 3600= 3.6 MJ.HTH

Not really. When the fire brigade talk of a flat fire producing 10MW ofpower they are clearly talking about somehting happening over minutes ortens of minutes and therefore causing a distinct nuisance to adjacentstructures, not somehting happening for milliseconds.

Except if it's a gas explosion, which means that the fire crews will besearching rubble.Firstly, there were enough posts in this sub-thread to suggest that peopleare confused with the meanings of the terms 'power' and 'energy'. PerhapsI should have posted this as a separate thread. Mea culpa.Secondly, loose terms like '10 MW' are in themselves unhelpful unless itis clear from the context that the meaning is either 'power' or anincorrectly used term for 'energy'. If a fire with an energy expressed as'10 MW' occurs lasting an hour, then the actual power driving it is only3kW [1], which is hardly an unusual figure in a domestic kitchen setting.[1] 3000W x 3600s = 10.8 x 10^6 Ws = 10.8 MJ or '10MW'Thirdly, the thing to come out of these calculations is the surprisinglyhigh energy contents of organic materials, e.g. butane in this case, orpetrol, or plastic 'insulation', or chip fat. The latter is ~38 MJ/kg, soa two-pint chip pan fire burning for 10 minutes has a power of (38 x10^6)/600 > 6kW. Add in some furnishings and you've got a '10MW' fire.Throw in some tons of plastic insulation round a building, and you have aserious problem.I once attended a presentation on fire safety. The ex-fireman giving itdescribed a fire in a Woolworth store. The alarms went off, but the peoplein the cafe on the first floor were having their lunch and so ignored thewarnings until it was too late for them to get out of the area. He was thefirst fireman to reach the cafe, and he was in tears as he spoke.Never fanny about with fire safety, be aware of the energy content ofmaterials, plan your escape routes, and have an ad-hoc smoke mask in mind.The clearest part of a smoke-filled room is the inch above the floor. Useit to breath, avoid smoke, and navigate to your chosen exit. I also carrya small torch and a Metropolitan Police whistle - the latter is *far* moreeffective than shouting.Spike

Post by SpikeTime for some arithmetic, and some basic unit definition.1 Joule (J) = 1 Watt-second (Ws). They are measures of Energy.A Watt (or 1 Joule per second) is a unit of Power.Power is the rate at which Energy is expended.Half a pint of liquid Butane contains 14.5 MegaJoules (MJ) of Energy.If this is released in 10 milliseconds, typical of a 'gas explosion' ina small building, the amount of Power released in that time is 14.5 MJ /.01 second = 1.45 Gigawatts.Or, if this Energy was released in 10,000 hours (36 Megaseconds), thePower would be 14.5 MJ / 36 Ms = 0.4 Watts.Your electricity meter reads Energy consumed in units calledkilowatt-hours (kWh), which is the Energy consumed in 1 hour (or 3600seconds) by something using 1000 Watts of Power. So 1 kWh = 1000 x 3600= 3.6 MJ.HTH

Not really. When the fire brigade talk of a flat fire producing 10MW ofpower they are clearly talking about somehting happening over minutes ortens of minutes and therefore causing a distinct nuisance to adjacentstructures, not somehting happening for milliseconds.

Except if it's a gas explosion, which means that the fire crews will besearching rubble.Firstly, there were enough posts in this sub-thread to suggest that peopleare confused with the meanings of the terms 'power' and 'energy'. PerhapsI should have posted this as a separate thread. Mea culpa.Secondly, loose terms like '10 MW' are in themselves unhelpful unless itis clear from the context that the meaning is either 'power' or anincorrectly used term for 'energy'. If a fire with an energy expressed as'10 MW' occurs lasting an hour, then the actual power driving it is only3kW [1], which is hardly an unusual figure in a domestic kitchen setting.[1] 3000W x 3600s = 10.8 x 10^6 Ws = 10.8 MJ or '10MW'Thirdly, the thing to come out of these calculations is the surprisinglyhigh energy contents of organic materials, e.g. butane in this case, orpetrol, or plastic 'insulation', or chip fat. The latter is ~38 MJ/kg, soa two-pint chip pan fire burning for 10 minutes has a power of (38 x10^6)/600 > 6kW. Add in some furnishings and you've got a '10MW' fire.Throw in some tons of plastic insulation round a building, and you have aserious problem.I once attended a presentation on fire safety. The ex-fireman giving itdescribed a fire in a Woolworth store. The alarms went off, but the peoplein the cafe on the first floor were having their lunch and so ignored thewarnings until it was too late for them to get out of the area. He was thefirst fireman to reach the cafe, and he was in tears as he spoke.Never fanny about with fire safety, be aware of the energy content ofmaterials, plan your escape routes, and have an ad-hoc smoke mask in mind.The clearest part of a smoke-filled room is the inch above the floor. Useit to breath, avoid smoke, and navigate to your chosen exit. I also carrya small torch and a Metropolitan Police whistle - the latter is *far* moreeffective than shouting.Spike

A half-pint of liquid butane, turned into a combustible gas and mixedwith air, then then burned in a fraction of a second?

So if the energy contained in a half pint of liquid Butane mixed withair was released under control you could power a 1kW load for 10,000hours? That looks like very cheap energy, but there must be a snag.

1/2 a pint of Butane is about 0.56 litreButane has a calorific value of 26MJ/litreSo your 1/2 pint contains 14.5MJ of energy, which is a lot of bang ifyou let it all out at once.Your 1KW load could run for about 4 hours , but owing to the efficiencyof converting this to electricity, say 30% , you'd only get about 1.2Hours.A a possibly related item on butane, fridges, DIY chemistry andexplosions.<Http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2015/10/hash_oil_produced_with_butane.html>

I expect that the balance of the 10MW comes from the rest of the flat'sstructure and contents burning.

Time for some arithmetic, and some basic unit definition.1 Joule (J) = 1 Watt-second (Ws). They are measures of Energy.A Watt (or 1 Joule per second) is a unit of Power.Power is the rate at which Energy is expended.Half a pint of liquid Butane contains 14.5 MegaJoules (MJ) of Energy.If this is released in 10 milliseconds, typical of a 'gas explosion' ina small building, the amount of Power released in that time is 14.5 MJ /.01 second = 1.45 Gigawatts.Or, if this Energy was released in 10,000 hours (36 Megaseconds), thePower would be 14.5 MJ / 36 Ms = 0.4 Watts.Your electricity meter reads Energy consumed in units calledkilowatt-hours (kWh), which is the Energy consumed in 1 hour (or 3600seconds) by something using 1000 Watts of Power. So 1 kWh = 1000 x 3600= 3.6 MJ.HTH

Not really. When the fire brigade talk of a flat fire producing 10MW ofpower they are clearly talking about somehting happening over minutes ortens of minutes and therefore causing a distinct nuisance to adjacentstructures, not somehting happening for milliseconds.

Spike makes some good points, although I've not checked his numbers, hisphysics is correct.

It is always possible it was a gas fridge, i.e. one which used gas ratherthan electricity to run it.

These used to be common, an aunt had one, but I'm not sure if they arestill made for the domestic market. They are used in caravans etc. Caravanfridges run on gas, mains, and 12v. They supposedly operate best, i.e.lowest temperature on gas. While they are designed to operate on propane,they would function on natural gas but safety may well be an issue. Theyhave a flame.

It seems many on the residents were of limited means, perhaps an old gas oreven caravan fridge was being used.

A half-pint of liquid butane, turned into a combustible gas and mixedwith air, then then burned in a fraction of a second?

So if the energy contained in a half pint of liquid Butane mixed withair was released under control you could power a 1kW load for 10,000hours? That looks like very cheap energy, but there must be a snag.

1/2 a pint of Butane is about 0.56 litreButane has a calorific value of 26MJ/litreSo your 1/2 pint contains 14.5MJ of energy, which is a lot of bang ifyou let it all out at once.Your 1KW load could run for about 4 hours , but owing to the efficiencyof converting this to electricity, say 30% , you'd only get about 1.2Hours.A a possibly related item on butane, fridges, DIY chemistry andexplosions.<Http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2015/10/hash_oil_produced_with_butane.html>

I expect that the balance of the 10MW comes from the rest of the flat'sstructure and contents burning.

Time for some arithmetic, and some basic unit definition.1 Joule (J) = 1 Watt-second (Ws). They are measures of Energy.A Watt (or 1 Joule per second) is a unit of Power.Power is the rate at which Energy is expended.Half a pint of liquid Butane contains 14.5 MegaJoules (MJ) of Energy.If this is released in 10 milliseconds, typical of a 'gas explosion' ina small building, the amount of Power released in that time is 14.5 MJ /.01 second = 1.45 Gigawatts.Or, if this Energy was released in 10,000 hours (36 Megaseconds), thePower would be 14.5 MJ / 36 Ms = 0.4 Watts.Your electricity meter reads Energy consumed in units calledkilowatt-hours (kWh), which is the Energy consumed in 1 hour (or 3600seconds) by something using 1000 Watts of Power. So 1 kWh = 1000 x 3600= 3.6 MJ.HTH

Not really. When the fire brigade talk of a flat fire producing 10MW ofpower they are clearly talking about somehting happening over minutes ortens of minutes and therefore causing a distinct nuisance to adjacentstructures, not somehting happening for milliseconds.

Spike makes some good points, although I've not checked his numbers, hisphysics is correct.It is always possible it was a gas fridge, i.e. one which used gas ratherthan electricity to run it.These used to be common, an aunt had one, but I'm not sure if they arestill made for the domestic market. They are used in caravans etc. Caravanfridges run on gas, mains, and 12v. They supposedly operate best, i.e.lowest temperature on gas. While they are designed to operate on propane,they would function on natural gas but safety may well be an issue. Theyhave a flame.It seems many on the residents were of limited means, perhaps an old gas oreven caravan fridge was being used.

A half-pint of liquid butane, turned into a combustible gas and mixedwith air, then then burned in a fraction of a second?

So if the energy contained in a half pint of liquid Butane mixed withair was released under control you could power a 1kW load for 10,000hours? That looks like very cheap energy, but there must be a snag.

1/2 a pint of Butane is about 0.56 litreButane has a calorific value of 26MJ/litreSo your 1/2 pint contains 14.5MJ of energy, which is a lot of bang ifyou let it all out at once.Your 1KW load could run for about 4 hours , but owing to the efficiencyof converting this to electricity, say 30% , you'd only get about 1.2Hours.A a possibly related item on butane, fridges, DIY chemistry andexplosions.<Http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2015/10/hash_oil_produced_with_butane.html>

I expect that the balance of the 10MW comes from the rest of the flat'sstructure and contents burning.

Time for some arithmetic, and some basic unit definition.1 Joule (J) = 1 Watt-second (Ws). They are measures of Energy.A Watt (or 1 Joule per second) is a unit of Power.Power is the rate at which Energy is expended.Half a pint of liquid Butane contains 14.5 MegaJoules (MJ) of Energy.If this is released in 10 milliseconds, typical of a 'gas explosion' ina small building, the amount of Power released in that time is 14.5 MJ /.01 second = 1.45 Gigawatts.Or, if this Energy was released in 10,000 hours (36 Megaseconds), thePower would be 14.5 MJ / 36 Ms = 0.4 Watts.Your electricity meter reads Energy consumed in units calledkilowatt-hours (kWh), which is the Energy consumed in 1 hour (or 3600seconds) by something using 1000 Watts of Power. So 1 kWh = 1000 x 3600= 3.6 MJ.HTH

Not really. When the fire brigade talk of a flat fire producing 10MW ofpower they are clearly talking about somehting happening over minutes ortens of minutes and therefore causing a distinct nuisance to adjacentstructures, not somehting happening for milliseconds.

Spike makes some good points, although I've not checked his numbers, hisphysics is correct.It is always possible it was a gas fridge, i.e. one which used gas ratherthan electricity to run it.These used to be common, an aunt had one, but I'm not sure if they arestill made for the domestic market. They are used in caravans etc. Caravanfridges run on gas, mains, and 12v. They supposedly operate best, i.e.lowest temperature on gas. While they are designed to operate on propane,they would function on natural gas but safety may well be an issue. Theyhave a flame.It seems many on the residents were of limited means, perhaps an old gas oreven caravan fridge was being used.

doubt that ....

my money is still on a bomb making factory........anybody want a bet?.......

A half-pint of liquid butane, turned into a combustible gas and mixedwith air, then then burned in a fraction of a second?

So if the energy contained in a half pint of liquid Butane mixed withair was released under control you could power a 1kW load for10,000 hours? That looks like very cheap energy, but theremust be a snag.

1/2 a pint of Butane is about 0.56 litreButane has a calorific value of 26MJ/litreSo your 1/2 pint contains 14.5MJ of energy, which is a lot ofbang if you let it all out at once.Your 1KW load could run for about 4 hours , but owing to the efficiencyof converting this to electricity, say 30% , you'd only getabout 1.2 Hours.A a possibly related item on butane, fridges, DIY chemistryand explosions.<Http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2015/10/hash_oil_produced_with_butane.html>

I expect that the balance of the 10MW comes from the rest of the flat'sstructure and contents burning.

Time for some arithmetic, and some basic unit definition.1 Joule (J) = 1 Watt-second (Ws). They are measures of Energy.A Watt (or 1 Joule per second) is a unit of Power.Power is the rate at which Energy is expended.Half a pint of liquid Butane contains 14.5 MegaJoules (MJ) of Energy.If this is released in 10 milliseconds, typical of a 'gasexplosion' in a small building, the amount of Power released inthat time is 14.5 MJ /.01 second = 1.45 Gigawatts.Or, if this Energy was released in 10,000 hours (36Megaseconds), the Power would be 14.5 MJ / 36 Ms = 0.4 Watts.Your electricity meter reads Energy consumed in units calledkilowatt-hours (kWh), which is the Energy consumed in 1 hour (or3600 seconds) by something using 1000 Watts of Power. So 1 kWh =1000 x 3600 = 3.6 MJ.HTH

Not really. When the fire brigade talk of a flat fire producing10MW of power they are clearly talking about somehting happeningover minutes or tens of minutes and therefore causing a distinctnuisance to adjacent structures, not somehting happening formilliseconds.

Spike makes some good points, although I've not checked hisnumbers, his physics is correct.It is always possible it was a gas fridge, i.e. one which used gasrather than electricity to run it.These used to be common, an aunt had one, but I'm not sure if theyare still made for the domestic market. They are used in caravansetc. Caravanfridges run on gas, mains, and 12v. They supposedly operate best,i.e. lowest temperature on gas. While they are designed to operateon propane, they would function on natural gas but safety may wellbe an issue. They have a flame.It seems many on the residents were of limited means, perhaps an old gas oreven caravan fridge was being used.

doubt that ....

my money is still on a bomb making factory........anybody want a bet?.......

I'll bet that you'll be KFed by >50% of the uk.d-i-y regs by the end ofthe month.

A half-pint of liquid butane, turned into a combustible gas and mixedwith air, then then burned in a fraction of a second?

So if the energy contained in a half pint of liquid Butane mixed withair was released under control you could power a 1kW load for10,000 hours? That looks like very cheap energy, but theremust be a snag.

1/2 a pint of Butane is about 0.56 litreButane has a calorific value of 26MJ/litreSo your 1/2 pint contains 14.5MJ of energy, which is a lot ofbang if you let it all out at once.Your 1KW load could run for about 4 hours , but owing to the efficiencyof converting this to electricity, say 30% , you'd only getabout 1.2 Hours.A a possibly related item on butane, fridges, DIY chemistryand explosions.<Http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2015/10/hash_oil_produced_with_butane.html>

I expect that the balance of the 10MW comes from the rest of the flat'sstructure and contents burning.

Time for some arithmetic, and some basic unit definition.1 Joule (J) = 1 Watt-second (Ws). They are measures of Energy.A Watt (or 1 Joule per second) is a unit of Power.Power is the rate at which Energy is expended.Half a pint of liquid Butane contains 14.5 MegaJoules (MJ) of Energy.If this is released in 10 milliseconds, typical of a 'gasexplosion' in a small building, the amount of Power released inthat time is 14.5 MJ /.01 second = 1.45 Gigawatts.Or, if this Energy was released in 10,000 hours (36Megaseconds), the Power would be 14.5 MJ / 36 Ms = 0.4 Watts.Your electricity meter reads Energy consumed in units calledkilowatt-hours (kWh), which is the Energy consumed in 1 hour (or3600 seconds) by something using 1000 Watts of Power. So 1 kWh =1000 x 3600 = 3.6 MJ.HTH

Not really. When the fire brigade talk of a flat fire producing10MW of power they are clearly talking about somehting happeningover minutes or tens of minutes and therefore causing a distinctnuisance to adjacent structures, not somehting happening formilliseconds.

Spike makes some good points, although I've not checked hisnumbers, his physics is correct.It is always possible it was a gas fridge, i.e. one which used gasrather than electricity to run it.These used to be common, an aunt had one, but I'm not sure if theyare still made for the domestic market. They are used in caravansetc. Caravanfridges run on gas, mains, and 12v. They supposedly operate best,i.e. lowest temperature on gas. While they are designed to operateon propane, they would function on natural gas but safety may wellbe an issue. They have a flame.It seems many on the residents were of limited means, perhaps an old gas oreven caravan fridge was being used.

doubt that ....

my money is still on a bomb making factory........anybody want a bet?.......

I'll bet that you'll be KFed by >50% of the uk.d-i-y regs by the end ofthe month.

A half-pint of liquid butane, turned into a combustible gas and mixedwith air, then then burned in a fraction of a second?

So if the energy contained in a half pint of liquid Butane mixed withair was released under control you could power a 1kW load for10,000 hours? That looks like very cheap energy, but theremust be a snag.

1/2 a pint of Butane is about 0.56 litreButane has a calorific value of 26MJ/litreSo your 1/2 pint contains 14.5MJ of energy, which is a lot ofbang if you let it all out at once.Your 1KW load could run for about 4 hours , but owing to the efficiencyof converting this to electricity, say 30% , you'd only getabout 1.2 Hours.A a possibly related item on butane, fridges, DIY chemistryand explosions.<Http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2015/10/hash_oil_produced_with_butane.html>

I expect that the balance of the 10MW comes from the rest of the flat'sstructure and contents burning.

Time for some arithmetic, and some basic unit definition.1 Joule (J) = 1 Watt-second (Ws). They are measures of Energy.A Watt (or 1 Joule per second) is a unit of Power.Power is the rate at which Energy is expended.Half a pint of liquid Butane contains 14.5 MegaJoules (MJ) of Energy.If this is released in 10 milliseconds, typical of a 'gasexplosion' in a small building, the amount of Power released inthat time is 14.5 MJ /.01 second = 1.45 Gigawatts.Or, if this Energy was released in 10,000 hours (36Megaseconds), the Power would be 14.5 MJ / 36 Ms = 0.4 Watts.Your electricity meter reads Energy consumed in units calledkilowatt-hours (kWh), which is the Energy consumed in 1 hour (or3600 seconds) by something using 1000 Watts of Power. So 1 kWh =1000 x 3600 = 3.6 MJ.HTH

Not really. When the fire brigade talk of a flat fire producing10MW of power they are clearly talking about somehting happeningover minutes or tens of minutes and therefore causing a distinctnuisance to adjacent structures, not somehting happening formilliseconds.

Spike makes some good points, although I've not checked hisnumbers, his physics is correct.It is always possible it was a gas fridge, i.e. one which used gasrather than electricity to run it.These used to be common, an aunt had one, but I'm not sure if theyare still made for the domestic market. They are used in caravansetc. Caravanfridges run on gas, mains, and 12v. They supposedly operate best,i.e. lowest temperature on gas. While they are designed to operateon propane, they would function on natural gas but safety may wellbe an issue. They have a flame.It seems many on the residents were of limited means, perhaps an old gas oreven caravan fridge was being used.

doubt that ....

my money is still on a bomb making factory........anybody want a bet?.......

I'll bet that you'll be KFed by >50% of the uk.d-i-y regs by the end ofthe month.

A half-pint of liquid butane, turned into a combustiblegas and mixedwith air, then then burned in a fraction of a second?

So if the energy contained in a half pint of liquid Butanemixed withair was released under control you could power a 1kW loadfor 10,000 hours? That looks like very cheap energy, butthere must be a snag.

1/2 a pint of Butane is about 0.56 litreButane has a calorific value of 26MJ/litreSo your 1/2 pint contains 14.5MJ of energy, which is a lotof bang if you let it all out at once.Your 1KW load could run for about 4 hours , but owing tothe efficiencyof converting this to electricity, say 30% , you'd only getabout 1.2 Hours.A a possibly related item on butane, fridges, DIYchemistry and explosions.<Http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2015/10/hash_oil_produced_with_butane.html>

I expect that the balance of the 10MW comes from the rest of the flat'sstructure and contents burning.

Time for some arithmetic, and some basic unit definition.1 Joule (J) = 1 Watt-second (Ws). They are measures of Energy.A Watt (or 1 Joule per second) is a unit of Power.Power is the rate at which Energy is expended.Half a pint of liquid Butane contains 14.5 MegaJoules (MJ) of Energy.If this is released in 10 milliseconds, typical of a 'gasexplosion' in a small building, the amount of Power releasedin that time is 14.5 MJ /.01 second = 1.45 Gigawatts.Or, if this Energy was released in 10,000 hours (36Megaseconds), the Power would be 14.5 MJ / 36 Ms = 0.4 Watts.Your electricity meter reads Energy consumed in units calledkilowatt-hours (kWh), which is the Energy consumed in 1 hour(or 3600 seconds) by something using 1000 Watts of Power. So1 kWh = 1000 x 3600 = 3.6 MJ.HTH

Not really. When the fire brigade talk of a flat fireproducing 10MW of power they are clearly talking aboutsomehting happening over minutes or tens of minutes andtherefore causing a distinct nuisance to adjacent structures,not somehting happening for milliseconds.

Spike makes some good points, although I've not checked hisnumbers, his physics is correct.It is always possible it was a gas fridge, i.e. one which usedgas rather than electricity to run it.These used to be common, an aunt had one, but I'm not sure ifthey are still made for the domestic market. They are used incaravans etc. Caravanfridges run on gas, mains, and 12v. They supposedly operatebest, i.e. lowest temperature on gas. While they are designedto operate on propane, they would function on natural gas butsafety may well be an issue. They have a flame.It seems many on the residents were of limited means, perhaps an old gas oreven caravan fridge was being used.

doubt that ....

my money is still on a bomb making factory........anybody want abet? .......

I'll bet that you'll be KFed by >50% of the uk.d-i-y regs by theend of the month.

A half-pint of liquid butane, turned into a combustiblegas and mixedwith air, then then burned in a fraction of a second?

So if the energy contained in a half pint of liquid Butanemixed withair was released under control you could power a 1kW loadfor 10,000 hours? That looks like very cheap energy, butthere must be a snag.

1/2 a pint of Butane is about 0.56 litreButane has a calorific value of 26MJ/litreSo your 1/2 pint contains 14.5MJ of energy, which is a lotof bang if you let it all out at once.Your 1KW load could run for about 4 hours , but owing tothe efficiencyof converting this to electricity, say 30% , you'd only getabout 1.2 Hours.A a possibly related item on butane, fridges, DIYchemistry and explosions.<Http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2015/10/hash_oil_produced_with_butane.html>

I expect that the balance of the 10MW comes from the rest ofthe flat'sstructure and contents burning.

Time for some arithmetic, and some basic unit definition.1 Joule (J) = 1 Watt-second (Ws). They are measures of Energy.A Watt (or 1 Joule per second) is a unit of Power.Power is the rate at which Energy is expended.Half a pint of liquid Butane contains 14.5 MegaJoules (MJ) of Energy.If this is released in 10 milliseconds, typical of a 'gasexplosion' in a small building, the amount of Power releasedin that time is 14.5 MJ /.01 second = 1.45 Gigawatts.Or, if this Energy was released in 10,000 hours (36Megaseconds), the Power would be 14.5 MJ / 36 Ms = 0.4 Watts.Your electricity meter reads Energy consumed in units calledkilowatt-hours (kWh), which is the Energy consumed in 1 hour(or 3600 seconds) by something using 1000 Watts of Power. So1 kWh = 1000 x 3600 = 3.6 MJ.HTH

Not really. When the fire brigade talk of a flat fireproducing 10MW of power they are clearly talking aboutsomehting happening over minutes or tens of minutes andtherefore causing a distinct nuisance to adjacent structures,not somehting happening for milliseconds.

Spike makes some good points, although I've not checked hisnumbers, his physics is correct.It is always possible it was a gas fridge, i.e. one which usedgas rather than electricity to run it.These used to be common, an aunt had one, but I'm not sure ifthey are still made for the domestic market. They are used incaravans etc. Caravanfridges run on gas, mains, and 12v. They supposedly operatebest, i.e. lowest temperature on gas. While they are designedto operate on propane, they would function on natural gas butsafety may well be an issue. They have a flame.It seems many on the residents were of limited means, perhaps an old gas oreven caravan fridge was being used.

doubt that ....

my money is still on a bomb making factory........anybody want abet? .......

I'll bet that you'll be KFed by >50% of the uk.d-i-y regs by theend of the month.

A half-pint of liquid butane, turned into a combustiblegas and mixedwith air, then then burned in a fraction of a second?

So if the energy contained in a half pint of liquid Butanemixed withair was released under control you could power a 1kW loadfor 10,000 hours? That looks like very cheap energy, butthere must be a snag.

1/2 a pint of Butane is about 0.56 litreButane has a calorific value of 26MJ/litreSo your 1/2 pint contains 14.5MJ of energy, which is a lotof bang if you let it all out at once.Your 1KW load could run for about 4 hours , but owing tothe efficiencyof converting this to electricity, say 30% , you'd only getabout 1.2 Hours.A a possibly related item on butane, fridges, DIYchemistry and explosions.<Http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2015/10/hash_oil_produced_with_butane.html>

I expect that the balance of the 10MW comes from the rest ofthe flat'sstructure and contents burning.

Time for some arithmetic, and some basic unit definition.1 Joule (J) = 1 Watt-second (Ws). They are measures of Energy.A Watt (or 1 Joule per second) is a unit of Power.Power is the rate at which Energy is expended.Half a pint of liquid Butane contains 14.5 MegaJoules (MJ) of Energy.If this is released in 10 milliseconds, typical of a 'gasexplosion' in a small building, the amount of Power releasedin that time is 14.5 MJ /.01 second = 1.45 Gigawatts.Or, if this Energy was released in 10,000 hours (36Megaseconds), the Power would be 14.5 MJ / 36 Ms = 0.4 Watts.Your electricity meter reads Energy consumed in units calledkilowatt-hours (kWh), which is the Energy consumed in 1 hour(or 3600 seconds) by something using 1000 Watts of Power. So1 kWh = 1000 x 3600 = 3.6 MJ.HTH

Not really. When the fire brigade talk of a flat fireproducing 10MW of power they are clearly talking aboutsomehting happening over minutes or tens of minutes andtherefore causing a distinct nuisance to adjacent structures,not somehting happening for milliseconds.

Spike makes some good points, although I've not checked hisnumbers, his physics is correct.It is always possible it was a gas fridge, i.e. one which usedgas rather than electricity to run it.These used to be common, an aunt had one, but I'm not sure ifthey are still made for the domestic market. They are used incaravans etc. Caravanfridges run on gas, mains, and 12v. They supposedly operatebest, i.e. lowest temperature on gas. While they are designedto operate on propane, they would function on natural gas butsafety may well be an issue. They have a flame.It seems many on the residents were of limited means, perhapsan old gas oreven caravan fridge was being used.

doubt that ....

my money is still on a bomb making factory........anybody want abet? .......

I'll bet that you'll be KFed by >50% of the uk.d-i-y regs by theend of the month.

"The first engine was there 6 minutes after the call and it nowtranspires that the original fridge fire had been extinguished andthe crews where packing up when fire was seen on the outside of thebuilding."

A half-pint of liquid butane, turned into a combustiblegas and mixedwith air, then then burned in a fraction of a second?

So if the energy contained in a half pint of liquid Butanemixed withair was released under control you could power a 1kW loadfor 10,000 hours? That looks like very cheap energy, butthere must be a snag.

1/2 a pint of Butane is about 0.56 litreButane has a calorific value of 26MJ/litreSo your 1/2 pint contains 14.5MJ of energy, which is a lotof bang if you let it all out at once.Your 1KW load could run for about 4 hours , but owing tothe efficiencyof converting this to electricity, say 30% , you'd only getabout 1.2 Hours.A a possibly related item on butane, fridges, DIYchemistry and explosions.<Http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2015/10/hash_oil_produced_with_butane.html>

I expect that the balance of the 10MW comes from the rest ofthe flat'sstructure and contents burning.

Time for some arithmetic, and some basic unit definition.1 Joule (J) = 1 Watt-second (Ws). They are measures of Energy.A Watt (or 1 Joule per second) is a unit of Power.Power is the rate at which Energy is expended.Half a pint of liquid Butane contains 14.5 MegaJoules (MJ) of Energy.If this is released in 10 milliseconds, typical of a 'gasexplosion' in a small building, the amount of Power releasedin that time is 14.5 MJ /.01 second = 1.45 Gigawatts.Or, if this Energy was released in 10,000 hours (36Megaseconds), the Power would be 14.5 MJ / 36 Ms = 0.4 Watts.Your electricity meter reads Energy consumed in units calledkilowatt-hours (kWh), which is the Energy consumed in 1 hour(or 3600 seconds) by something using 1000 Watts of Power. So1 kWh = 1000 x 3600 = 3.6 MJ.HTH

Not really. When the fire brigade talk of a flat fireproducing 10MW of power they are clearly talking aboutsomehting happening over minutes or tens of minutes andtherefore causing a distinct nuisance to adjacent structures,not somehting happening for milliseconds.

Spike makes some good points, although I've not checked hisnumbers, his physics is correct.It is always possible it was a gas fridge, i.e. one which usedgas rather than electricity to run it.These used to be common, an aunt had one, but I'm not sure ifthey are still made for the domestic market. They are used incaravans etc. Caravanfridges run on gas, mains, and 12v. They supposedly operatebest, i.e. lowest temperature on gas. While they are designedto operate on propane, they would function on natural gas butsafety may well be an issue. They have a flame.It seems many on the residents were of limited means, perhapsan old gas or even caravan fridge was being used.

doubt that ....

my money is still on a bomb making factory........anybody want abet? .......

I'll bet that you'll be KFed by >50% of the uk.d-i-y regs by theend of the month.

A half-pint of liquid butane, turned into a combustible gas and mixedwith air, then then burned in a fraction of a second?

So if the energy contained in a half pint of liquid Butane mixed withair was released under control you could power a 1kW load for10,000 hours? That looks like very cheap energy, but theremust be a snag.

1/2 a pint of Butane is about 0.56 litreButane has a calorific value of 26MJ/litreSo your 1/2 pint contains 14.5MJ of energy, which is a lot ofbang if you let it all out at once.Your 1KW load could run for about 4 hours , but owing to the efficiencyof converting this to electricity, say 30% , you'd only getabout 1.2 Hours.A a possibly related item on butane, fridges, DIY chemistryand explosions.<Http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2015/10/hash_oil_produced_with_butane.html>

I expect that the balance of the 10MW comes from the rest of the flat'sstructure and contents burning.

Time for some arithmetic, and some basic unit definition.1 Joule (J) = 1 Watt-second (Ws). They are measures of Energy.A Watt (or 1 Joule per second) is a unit of Power.Power is the rate at which Energy is expended.Half a pint of liquid Butane contains 14.5 MegaJoules (MJ) of Energy.If this is released in 10 milliseconds, typical of a 'gasexplosion' in a small building, the amount of Power released inthat time is 14.5 MJ /.01 second = 1.45 Gigawatts.Or, if this Energy was released in 10,000 hours (36Megaseconds), the Power would be 14.5 MJ / 36 Ms = 0.4 Watts.Your electricity meter reads Energy consumed in units calledkilowatt-hours (kWh), which is the Energy consumed in 1 hour (or3600 seconds) by something using 1000 Watts of Power. So 1 kWh =1000 x 3600 = 3.6 MJ.HTH

Not really. When the fire brigade talk of a flat fire producing10MW of power they are clearly talking about somehting happeningover minutes or tens of minutes and therefore causing a distinctnuisance to adjacent structures, not somehting happening formilliseconds.

Spike makes some good points, although I've not checked hisnumbers, his physics is correct.It is always possible it was a gas fridge, i.e. one which used gasrather than electricity to run it.These used to be common, an aunt had one, but I'm not sure if theyare still made for the domestic market. They are used in caravansetc. Caravanfridges run on gas, mains, and 12v. They supposedly operate best,i.e. lowest temperature on gas. While they are designed to operateon propane, they would function on natural gas but safety may wellbe an issue. They have a flame.It seems many on the residents were of limited means, perhaps an old gas oreven caravan fridge was being used.

doubt that ....

my money is still on a bomb making factory........anybody want a bet?.......

I'll bet that you'll be KFed by >50% of the uk.d-i-y regs by the end ofthe month.

they like my penis and balls high flats anyway .....indicative of the druggytossers living within .......

A half-pint of liquid butane, turned into a combustible gas and mixedwith air, then then burned in a fraction of a second?

So if the energy contained in a half pint of liquid Butane mixed withair was released under control you could power a 1kW load for 10,000hours? That looks like very cheap energy, but there must be a snag.

1/2 a pint of Butane is about 0.56 litreButane has a calorific value of 26MJ/litreSo your 1/2 pint contains 14.5MJ of energy, which is a lot of bang ifyou let it all out at once.Your 1KW load could run for about 4 hours , but owing to the efficiencyof converting this to electricity, say 30% , you'd only get about 1.2Hours.A a possibly related item on butane, fridges, DIY chemistry andexplosions.<Http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2015/10/hash_oil_produced_with_butane.html>

I expect that the balance of the 10MW comes from the rest of the flat'sstructure and contents burning.

Time for some arithmetic, and some basic unit definition.1 Joule (J) = 1 Watt-second (Ws). They are measures of Energy.A Watt (or 1 Joule per second) is a unit of Power.Power is the rate at which Energy is expended.Half a pint of liquid Butane contains 14.5 MegaJoules (MJ) of Energy.If this is released in 10 milliseconds, typical of a 'gas explosion' ina small building, the amount of Power released in that time is 14.5 MJ /.01 second = 1.45 Gigawatts.Or, if this Energy was released in 10,000 hours (36 Megaseconds), thePower would be 14.5 MJ / 36 Ms = 0.4 Watts.Your electricity meter reads Energy consumed in units calledkilowatt-hours (kWh), which is the Energy consumed in 1 hour (or 3600seconds) by something using 1000 Watts of Power. So 1 kWh = 1000 x 3600= 3.6 MJ.HTH

Not really. When the fire brigade talk of a flat fire producing 10MW ofpower they are clearly talking about somehting happening over minutes ortens of minutes and therefore causing a distinct nuisance to adjacentstructures, not somehting happening for milliseconds.

Spike makes some good points, although I've not checked his numbers, hisphysics is correct.It is always possible it was a gas fridge, i.e. one which used gas ratherthan electricity to run it.These used to be common, an aunt had one, but I'm not sure if they arestill made for the domestic market. They are used in caravans etc. Caravanfridges run on gas, mains, and 12v. They supposedly operate best, i.e.lowest temperature on gas. While they are designed to operate on propane,they would function on natural gas but safety may well be an issue. Theyhave a flame.It seems many on the residents were of limited means, perhaps an old gas oreven caravan fridge was being used.

doubt that ....

my money is still on a bomb making factory........anybody want a bet?.......

It is bad enough so many people have died without your silly and badtaste input.

Being in a confined space when a fire breaks out is very scary, if ithappened to you you wouldn't joke about it.

A half-pint of liquid butane, turned into a combustible gas and mixedwith air, then then burned in a fraction of a second?

So if the energy contained in a half pint of liquid Butane mixed withair was released under control you could power a 1kW load for 10,000hours? That looks like very cheap energy, but there must be a snag.

1/2 a pint of Butane is about 0.56 litreButane has a calorific value of 26MJ/litreSo your 1/2 pint contains 14.5MJ of energy, which is a lot of bang ifyou let it all out at once.Your 1KW load could run for about 4 hours , but owing to the efficiencyof converting this to electricity, say 30% , you'd only get about 1.2Hours.A a possibly related item on butane, fridges, DIY chemistry andexplosions.<Http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2015/10/hash_oil_produced_with_butane.html>

I expect that the balance of the 10MW comes from the rest of the flat'sstructure and contents burning.

Time for some arithmetic, and some basic unit definition.1 Joule (J) = 1 Watt-second (Ws). They are measures of Energy.A Watt (or 1 Joule per second) is a unit of Power.Power is the rate at which Energy is expended.Half a pint of liquid Butane contains 14.5 MegaJoules (MJ) of Energy.If this is released in 10 milliseconds, typical of a 'gas explosion' ina small building, the amount of Power released in that time is 14.5MJ/.01 second = 1.45 Gigawatts.Or, if this Energy was released in 10,000 hours (36 Megaseconds), thePower would be 14.5 MJ / 36 Ms = 0.4 Watts.Your electricity meter reads Energy consumed in units calledkilowatt-hours (kWh), which is the Energy consumed in 1 hour (or 3600seconds) by something using 1000 Watts of Power. So 1 kWh = 1000 x 3600= 3.6 MJ.HTH

Not really. When the fire brigade talk of a flat fire producing 10MW ofpower they are clearly talking about somehting happening over minutes ortens of minutes and therefore causing a distinct nuisance to adjacentstructures, not somehting happening for milliseconds.

Spike makes some good points, although I've not checked his numbers, hisphysics is correct.It is always possible it was a gas fridge, i.e. one which used gas ratherthan electricity to run it.These used to be common, an aunt had one, but I'm not sure if they arestill made for the domestic market. They are used in caravans etc. Caravanfridges run on gas, mains, and 12v. They supposedly operate best, i.e.lowest temperature on gas. While they are designed to operate on propane,they would function on natural gas but safety may well be an issue. Theyhave a flame.It seems many on the residents were of limited means, perhaps an oldgasoreven caravan fridge was being used.

doubt that ....

my money is still on a bomb making factory........anybody want a bet?.......

It is bad enough so many people have died without your silly and bad tasteinput.Being in a confined space when a fire breaks out is very scary, if ithappened to you you wouldn't joke about it.

I have had more to do with fires and fire engineering than most people...from Glasgow airport, two shopping malls and many rain screenings...notto mention attending major fires and explosions..... so if I want to say abomb making factory is a possibility I will .....

Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...I have had more to do with fires and fire engineering than mostpeople ...from Glasgow airport, two shopping malls and many rainscreenings...not to mention attending major fires and explosions.....so if I want to say a bomb making factory is a possibility Iwill .....

Latest report I've seen says LFB attended and extinguished the fridgefire that was reported in flat 14 or 16, as they were leaving they sawfire spreading upwards possibly having jumped into the externalcladding.

Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...I have had more to do with fires and fire engineering than mostpeople ...from Glasgow airport, two shopping malls and many rainscreenings...not to mention attending major fires and explosions.....so if I want to say a bomb making factory is a possibility Iwill .....

Latest report I've seen says LFB attended and extinguished the fridgefire that was reported in flat 14 or 16, as they were leaving they sawfire spreading upwards possibly having jumped into the externalcladding.

we will see... there is so much speculation anything is possible .....

Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...I have had more to do with fires and fire engineering than mostpeople ...from Glasgow airport, two shopping malls and many rainscreenings...not to mention attending major fires andexplosions..... so if I want to say a bomb making factory is apossibility I will .....

Latest report I've seen says LFB attended and extinguished thefridge fire that was reported in flat 14 or 16, as they wereleaving they saw fire spreading upwards possibly having jumped intothe external cladding.

Post by Brian ReaySpike makes some good points, although I've not checked his numbers, hisphysics is correct.It is always possible it was a gas fridge, i.e. one which used gas ratherthan electricity to run it.These used to be common, an aunt had one, but I'm not sure if they arestill made for the domestic market. They are used in caravans etc. Caravanfridges run on gas, mains, and 12v. They supposedly operate best, i.e.lowest temperature on gas. While they are designed to operate on propane,they would function on natural gas but safety may well be an issue. Theyhave a flame.It seems many on the residents were of limited means, perhaps an old gas oreven caravan fridge was being used.

I had a gas fridge at home at one time. It worked very well and wassilent. When we were converted to natural gas ( shows how long ago) ,the fitter didn't have any problem changing the burner, .The workingfluid was ammonia. I know that because it started leaking eventually andthe smell was quite distinct.

I have a friend who had one in Malta that worked on paraffin. They hadto turn it upside down every so often to keep it working.

Post by Brian ReaySpike makes some good points, although I've not checked his numbers, hisphysics is correct.It is always possible it was a gas fridge, i.e. one which used gas ratherthan electricity to run it.These used to be common, an aunt had one, but I'm not sure if they arestill made for the domestic market. They are used in caravans etc. Caravanfridges run on gas, mains, and 12v. They supposedly operate best, i.e.lowest temperature on gas. While they are designed to operate on propane,they would function on natural gas but safety may well be an issue. Theyhave a flame.It seems many on the residents were of limited means, perhaps an old gas oreven caravan fridge was being used.

I had a gas fridge at home at one time. It worked very well and wassilent. When we were converted to natural gas ( shows how long ago) ,the fitter didn't have any problem changing the burner, .The workingfluid was ammonia. I know that because it started leaking eventually andthe smell was quite distinct.

Ammonia was a common coolant at one time. I'm not sure if it is still used.

Post by Brian HowieI have a friend who had one in Malta that worked on paraffin. They hadto turn it upside down every so often to keep it working.

That is not something I've heard of (using paraffin) but, as you onlyneed a source of heat, there is no reason it wouldn't work.

As for turning a fridge upside down, I seem to recall this was somethingammonia fridges could be 'revitalised' by doing from time to time. I'msure I knew the theory but I don't recall it.

Post by Brian ReayAs for turning a fridge upside down, I seem to recall this wassomething ammonia fridges could be 'revitalised' by doing from time totime. I'm sure I knew the theory but I don't recall it.

It's sounds like some fridge cooling systems can become 'air-locked',and turning it over frees the bubble.

Post by Brian ReayAs for turning a fridge upside down, I seem to recall this was somethingammonia fridges could be 'revitalised' by doing from time to time. I'msure I knew the theory but I don't recall it.

It's sounds like some fridge cooling systems can become 'air-locked', andturning it over frees the bubble.

must be why they tell you not to switch on a fridge or freezer as soon asyou move it.......

Post by Brian ReayAs for turning a fridge upside down, I seem to recall this was somethingammonia fridges could be 'revitalised' by doing from time to time. I'msure I knew the theory but I don't recall it.

It's sounds like some fridge cooling systems can become 'air-locked', andturning it over frees the bubble.

must be why they tell you not to switch on a fridge or freezer as soon asyou move it.......

Post by Brian ReayAs for turning a fridge upside down, I seem to recall this wassomething ammonia fridges could be 'revitalised' by doing from time totime. I'm sure I knew the theory but I don't recall it.

It's sounds like some fridge cooling systems can become 'air-locked',and turning it over frees the bubble.

Fixes modern fridges too. I've needed to do it to several mobile home/RVfridges. The first time was quite a challenge in figuring out how to getthe fridge out especially as the vehicle was hired. Next time it neededdoing in a different vehicle we did it in a Parkplatz on the Authbahnoutside of Stuttgart. 45min job the second time.

Post by Brian HowieI have a friend who had one in Malta that worked on paraffin. They had toturn it upside down every so often to keep it working.

That is not something I've heard of (using paraffin) but, as you onlyneed a source of heat, there is no reason it wouldn't work.As for turning a fridge upside down, I seem to recall this was somethingammonia fridges could be 'revitalised' by doing from time to time. I'msure I knew the theory but I don't recall it.

Post by Brian ReaySpike makes some good points, although I've not checked his numbers, hisphysics is correct.It is always possible it was a gas fridge, i.e. one which used gas ratherthan electricity to run it.These used to be common, an aunt had one, but I'm not sure if they arestill made for the domestic market. They are used in caravans etc. Caravanfridges run on gas, mains, and 12v. They supposedly operate best, i.e.lowest temperature on gas. While they are designed to operate on propane,they would function on natural gas but safety may well be an issue. Theyhave a flame.It seems many on the residents were of limited means, perhaps an old gas oreven caravan fridge was being used.

I had a gas fridge at home at one time. It worked very well and wassilent. When we were converted to natural gas ( shows how long ago) , thefitter didn't have any problem changing the burner, .The working fluid wasammonia. I know that because it started leaking eventually and the smellwas quite distinct.I have a friend who had one in Malta that worked on paraffin. They had toturn it upside down every so often to keep it working.Brian

Post by Brian ReayIt is always possible it was a gas fridge, i.e. one which used gas ratherthan electricity to run it.These used to be common, an aunt had one, but I'm not sure if they arestill made for the domestic market. They are used in caravans etc. Caravanfridges run on gas, mains, and 12v. They supposedly operate best, i.e.lowest temperature on gas. While they are designed to operate on propane,they would function on natural gas but safety may well be an issue. Theyhave a flame.It seems many on the residents were of limited means, perhaps an old gas oreven caravan fridge was being used.

well if they were using a camping or caravan gas fridge working on propaneor butane and there was a gas leak I am surprised the flat below didn't blowup at the first spark or naked flame ......

Post by SpikeThe TV news yesterday regarding the fire in the block of flats in Londonmentioned that during the refurbishment something that might have beencalled 'fire stop' was removed from between the floors. Doubtless it wasreplaced, but the suspicion is that the fire spread from floor to floornot necessarily via the cladding. What is this 'fire stop' stuff. and ifit wasn't there or nor properly replaced, could that account for a fastspread of fire?

Why not wait until the facts are known? It is bad enough having the'armchair experts' on the TV etc without you chipping in.

Have to agree with you there brian..no offence spike but the media arefilling time with the most crazy speculation.......

The problem you have with Reay's approach is that, for example, one thenbelieves the official version of events. One famous case resulted in averdict of suicide from a radial cut to the ulna artery, singlecoproxamol tablet in the stomach, and very little blood at the scene -none of which was judged credible by senior medical people - with thepolice search for the victim starting 3 hours before he was reportedmissing. Some people will believe anything they're told.

Post by SpikeThe TV news yesterday regarding the fire in the block of flats in Londonmentioned that during the refurbishment something that might have beencalled 'fire stop' was removed from between the floors. Doubtless it wasreplaced, but the suspicion is that the fire spread from floor to floornot necessarily via the cladding. What is this 'fire stop' stuff. and ifit wasn't there or nor properly replaced, could that account for a fastspread of fire?

Duuno, but I could never live in one of those tubes, even if the onlyalternative was a mud hut! Glad some people manage it though, otherwisethink of all the additional countryside which would be concreted over.

Post by SpikeThe TV news yesterday regarding the fire in the block of flats in Londonmentioned that during the refurbishment something that might have beencalled 'fire stop' was removed from between the floors. Doubtless it wasreplaced, but the suspicion is that the fire spread from floor to floornot necessarily via the cladding. What is this 'fire stop' stuff. and ifit wasn't there or nor properly replaced, could that account for a fastspread of fire?

Duuno, but I could never live in one of those tubes, even if the onlyalternative was a mud hut! Glad some people manage it though, otherwisethink of all the additional countryside which would be concreted over.

There are rumours about that suggest that the 'environmentalperformance' of the block was given high priority.

Post by SpikeThe TV news yesterday regarding the fire in the block of flats in Londonmentioned that during the refurbishment something that might have beencalled 'fire stop' was removed from between the floors. Doubtless it wasreplaced, but the suspicion is that the fire spread from floor to floornot necessarily via the cladding. What is this 'fire stop' stuff. and ifit wasn't there or nor properly replaced, could that account for a fastspread of fire?

Duuno, but I could never live in one of those tubes, even if the onlyalternative was a mud hut! Glad some people manage it though, otherwisethink of all the additional countryside which would be concreted over.

There are rumours about that suggest that the 'environmental performance'of the block was given high priority.

always said that the ridiculously high level of insulation and SAP ratingsdemanded by the EU would cause problems ....they should go back to U valuefor wall 1 and roofs .6 ...end of problems ......

Post by lordgnomeDuuno, but I could never live in one of those tubes, even if the onlyalternative was a mud hut! Glad some people manage it though, otherwisethink of all the additional countryside which would be concreted over.Les.

It is interesting that some of the old tower blocks dismissed as virtual'slums' were sold off, refurbished, and have become very desirableresidences.

Likewise, not far from here, there are some very attractive tower blockswhich are not only expensive but very popular.

If you watch some of the documentaries which interview the earlyresidents of the blocks, who moved from houses with no indoor toiletsetc, they speak very highly of them.

Of course, not everyone likes living in a city, it isn't my idea of funbut some prefer it. Equally, others wouldn't like to live in thecountryside. Each to his own.

Post by lordgnomeDuuno, but I could never live in one of those tubes, even if the onlyalternative was a mud hut! Glad some people manage it though, otherwisethink of all the additional countryside which would be concreted over.Les.

It is interesting that some of the old tower blocks dismissed as virtual'slums' were sold off, refurbished, and have become very desirableresidences.

always said it is not the buildings fault just the people who have to livein social housing ......

Post by lordgnomeDuuno, but I could never live in one of those tubes, even if the onlyalternative was a mud hut! Glad some people manage it though, otherwisethink of all the additional countryside which would be concreted over.Les.

It is interesting that some of the old tower blocks dismissed as virtual'slums' were sold off, refurbished, and have become very desirableresidences.Likewise, not far from here, there are some very attractive tower blockswhich are not only expensive but very popular.If you watch some of the documentaries which interview the early residentsof the blocks, who moved from houses with no indoor toilets etc, theyspeak very highly of them.Of course, not everyone likes living in a city, it isn't my idea of funbut some prefer it. Equally, others wouldn't like to live in thecountryside. Each to his own.

always said it is not the buildings fault just the people who have to livein social housing ......

Post by lordgnomeDuuno, but I could never live in one of those tubes, even if the onlyalternative was a mud hut! Glad some people manage it though, otherwisethink of all the additional countryside which would be concreted over.Les.

It is interesting that some of the old tower blocks dismissed as virtual'slums' were sold off, refurbished, and have become very desirableresidences.Likewise, not far from here, there are some very attractive tower blockswhich are not only expensive but very popular.If you watch some of the documentaries which interview the earlyresidents of the blocks, who moved from houses with no indoor toiletsetc, they speak very highly of them.Of course, not everyone likes living in a city, it isn't my idea of funbut some prefer it. Equally, others wouldn't like to live in thecountryside. Each to his own.

always said it is not the buildings fault just the people who have to livein social housing ......

but then again give a tenant defensable space and it works ....that is whythe areas around flats are battlezones ....but then again they only putolder people in the high flats on the other side of the m8 from here andwith concierges it works ....so young scumbags are to blame most of thetime......

Post by lordgnomeDuuno, but I could never live in one of those tubes, even if the onlyalternative was a mud hut! Glad some people manage it though, otherwisethink of all the additional countryside which would be concreted over.Les.

It is interesting that some of the old tower blocks dismissed as virtual'slums' were sold off, refurbished, and have become very desirableresidences.Likewise, not far from here, there are some very attractive tower blockswhich are not only expensive but very popular.If you watch some of the documentaries which interview the earlyresidents of the blocks, who moved from houses with no indoor toiletsetc, they speak very highly of them.Of course, not everyone likes living in a city, it isn't my idea of funbut some prefer it. Equally, others wouldn't like to live in thecountryside. Each to his own.

always said it is not the buildings fault just the people who have to livein social housing ......

but then again give a tenant defensable space and it works ....that is whythe areas around flats are battlezones ....but then again they only putolder people in the high flats on the other side of the m8 from here andwith concierges it works ....so young scumbags are to blame most of thetime......

Post by SpikeThe TV news yesterday regarding the fire in the block of flats in Londonmentioned that during the refurbishment something that might have beencalled 'fire stop' was removed from between the floors. Doubtless it wasreplaced, but the suspicion is that the fire spread from floor to floornot necessarily via the cladding. What is this 'fire stop' stuff. and ifit wasn't there or nor properly replaced, could that account for a fastspread of fire?

I don't think that a fire stop would have stopped thatfire......overcladding is just an inherantly bad idea in high rise buildings.....

Post by SpikeThe TV news yesterday regarding the fire in the block of flats in Londonmentioned that during the refurbishment something that might have beencalled 'fire stop' was removed from between the floors. Doubtless it wasreplaced, but the suspicion is that the fire spread from floor to floornot necessarily via the cladding. What is this 'fire stop' stuff. and ifit wasn't there or nor properly replaced, could that account for a fastspread of fire?

I don't think that a fire stop would have stopped thatfire......overcladding is just an inherantly bad idea in high rise buildings.....

A fire stop is usually a double layer of sealed mineral fibre boardplaced in pipe/cable risers at every floor or entry point. Havingexperienced the gale that can blow through these risers, if thestopping was not done properly then yes a rapid spread of fire canresult.

Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...I don't think that a fire stop would have stopped thatfire......overcladding is just an inherantly bad idea in high risebuildings .....

A fire stop is usually a double layer of sealed mineral fibre boardplaced in pipe/cable risers at every floor or entry point. Havingexperienced the gale that can blow through these risers, if thestopping was not done properly then yes a rapid spread of fire canresult.

I read this morning that the tenant of the flat where a refrigeratorfire started this off woke his neighbour at 12.50am to tell her toevacuate. She stated that the fire was small, and just in the kitchen,so that it could have been contained except that the flat doors ontothe corridor/landing were all open and she could see the fire from herflat door.

Are these front doors not required to be self-closing and fireresistant? I would have thought that an extinguisher or two should havebeen enough to put this out once the power was turned off.

Post by Brian MorrisonAre these front doors not required to be self-closing and fireresistant? I would have thought that an extinguisher or two should havebeen enough to put this out once the power was turned off.

In the olden days, factory staff used to be trained in fire drill andnumerous extinguishers were placed at strategic positions. On to the90's and a colleague asked the building supervisor what had happened tofire drill and training in the use of the different devices.

It transpired that they had been 'advised' by the fire brigade that thenew line of thinking was that you did not try to contain a fire, butjust got out leaving it to burn. I love these 'experts'.

On another occasion in the 80's we ran a small business in a formerrailway station. The fire inspection report concluded that the doors tothe platform should open outwards. Clearly impossible, due to thepresence of stone cornicing. Another recommendation was that an upstairswindow should be locked, despite this being one of the safest exitpoints onto a low roof.

So, I wonder if there were no extinguishers in the tower blockavailable due to the 'modern thinking'.I wonder if the reason the cladding was added/chosen to meet an EUtarget of 'sustainability'.

Post by lordgnomeSo, I wonder if there were no extinguishers in the tower blockavailable due to the 'modern thinking'.I wonder if the reason the cladding was added/chosen to meet an EUtarget of 'sustainability'.

The cladding was likely shoddily installed by swarthy foreigners who weretoo busy smoking dope, reading the Guardian and/or daydreaming abouthomosexual practices to do a decent British job of it, Les.

yes but I know of hundreds of fire doors into flats that have been replacedwith plastic doors with ordinary glass panels .......people don't give ashit other than they want a door that THEY like .....we gave up chasing themin most cases ....

yes but I know of hundreds of fire doors into flats that have beenreplaced with plastic doors with ordinary glass panels .......people don'tgive a shit other than they want a door that THEY like .....we gave upchasing them in most cases ....

yes but I know of hundreds of fire doors into flats that have beenreplaced with plastic doors with ordinary glass panels .......peopledon't give a shit other than they want a door that THEY like .....we gaveup chasing them in most cases ....