First off there is no need to apologize. We are debating we are both knowledgable and we both want more knowledge of this interesting and confusing period. What should matter in the debate is our sources. Who has the better stronger sources to supplement their debate.

i haven't been offended by anything you have written to me. i am sorry if i have caused you distress please accept my apology. i do tend to get bent a bit out of shape by the constant many times wild theorizing that affects this period by the experts and their readers. As scientists, as they like to remind us they are, they should hold to facts not conjecture, but as Dr. Giles says. "In fact we know enough about this period not only to make a substantial effort to reconstruct a bit of its history and art, but also unfortunately to inspire a host of incomplete theories and speculations arising from the incomplete data and the romance of Egypt. Nor is this speculation confined to the unqualified, but it arises from those who should know better." (from The Amarna Age: Egypt by Frederick J. Giles pg. 2) Like i have told Orisis II i have waited a long time for Dr. Giles! He validates many of my own long held beliefs, and he has the proofs to support them!

As for Amenhotep's choice of living space on the West Bank, traditionally the land of the Dead! If he was alive today, the public would be demanding he have his head shunk.

I am trying to assist you in expanding your knowledge believe it or not. However if you continually hold to your traditional thoughts my assistance won't be much help to you. But perhaps they will be to the next reader not so sure of their own traditional thoughts. And that is okay too! We are not the only ones with interest in this period

i agree with you on Akhetaten's lack of temples for other gods/goddess' but in most of Egypt's cities there were few temples to any god/goddess except for the one that was that cities main God. And Akhetaten was the cult city of Aten. So i wouldn't expect many temples of other gods there, just as i don't expect or find many temples of other gods/goddess in the cult cities of Osiris- Abydos, Ptah-Memphis, Hathor- Iunet, where one does find shines to Osiris but the temples are for Hathor. i can go on...

My own main interest is in the prehistoric, early state formation of Egypt and the Old Kingdom. But there is so little written about them because they are just to far back in time and so little remains. i can barely tolerate anything past Merenptah of the 19th dynasty. So my hat is off to you a Ptolomic period person. Really!

Okay, about you're wondering about Tiy thankyou for the expansion of your wondering. Again, nothing i have read dwells on it. Even in the way of wild speculation. Myself, i have read all of the Amarna Letters, and several books that discuss them in depth. This is how i see your quotes... i agree with Dr. Daivd Rohl in that the 18th Dynasty is the period of Kings David and Solomon. It is about the only thing i do agree with him about. i came to my agreement through entirely different means than he did to come to them.
My own theory of these quotes is that Akhenaten, with his Aten has decided that the he, Egypt, and the Aten can no longer deal with the traditional peoples and princes of Canaan, terrible idolitors you know. He as decided to support a poet/musican, talented young man. Who happens to be a pretty good general as well, on top of which he loves one all powerful god too. In other words, Akhenaten didn't lose the areas in question, but simply changed his interest in who was to govern them for Egypt. To me this is the real reason why the Ramesses family criminalized him so... not because of the Atenist cult but because he allowed a strong nation to develope in traditional Egyptian lands. There is much more to this but not here, or now.

Another aspect on this regarding your wondering about Q. Tiy is that with a short period or no time period of co-regencey she would have had plenty of time to have left some indications about her son's foreign affairs policy and this might have, did not suvive for us to read. On the other hand a long coregencey with Amenhotep passing away around year 12 of Akhenaten, and Tiy herself by year 15, 16 wouldn't have given her much time.

Okay two lines from one hymn is proof that he didn't respect other gods/goddesses? In that god's cult city? Okay, but not enough proof for me. How do you explain the moving of the Mnevis bull to AKhetaten?

As for my source of confusion on your stand regarding Akhenaten and his religious revolution...> Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 3:23 pm Si-Amun wrote
"but it was Akhenaten who started the real religous upheaval by denying Amun and the other gods,". i regret if i misread or didn't understand, please forgive me. And thank you for clearifing it in your last post.

To be honest I cannot explain the Mnevis Bull, as I have said before this isn't my period. Also if the temple was closed what could be done with the Bull. If it was slaughtered then there would have almost certainly been an uprising. By taking the object of devotion away from the Temple the God has been proven to have left the city, physically and symbolically. Akhenaten had actually taken the representation of the god out of the city and left the people without their "god". That is my theory, I have no sources but it seems more of a strong political move than a religous one. The sacred Bulls were used throughout history to control the peoples' emotions (Cleopatra VII took part in the inaugeration of a later Bull to display her respect of Egyptian culture, gaining her the support and respect of Southern Egypt). I think that Akhenaten wasn't a fool, he knew what taking the Bull would do. Normally the Bull would have rarely left the temple, let alone the city itself so I don't see it as Akhenaten's display of devotion.

As to the lack of temples to other gods in Akhetaten in Egypt Gods were usually worshipped in trinities. At Abydos there were seven shrines in the temple of Osiris (Isis, Horus, Osiris, Seti I, Ptah, Ra-Horakhty and Amun), showing that many gods were honoured in cities. In Waset the gods Amun, Mut, Khonsu and Montu were strongly worshipped. In Men-Nefer it was Ptah, Sekhmet, Imhotep and Hathor as well as deified kings. On the Elephantine Khnumn, Satis and Anukis, as well as several Ptolomaic shrines to Isis. I cannot think of one major city, let alone a capital where the temples to only one god were erected. Even in Temples dedicated to deities with few or no connected other gods there were usually shrines to others. Atum was worshipped in Heliopolis, Shu and Tefnut are not. However, Ra and Ra-Horakhte are honoured with temples of considerable size, as is Thoth. Only in Alexandria was one Egyptian god worshipped in a city (Isis), and I don't think Alexandria counts as technically it wasn't classed as Egypt (the Ptolemies were rulers of Alexandria and the Two lands in their titulary). Why does Akhetaten show no evidence of other deities being officially worshipped.

My sources come from "The Temples of Ancient Egypt" by Richard H. Wilkinson and from "The Temple of Abydos", which is the approved guide to the Temple.

As to the lack of temples to other gods in Akhetaten in Egypt Gods were usually worshipped in trinities. At Abydos there were seven shrines in the temple of Osiris (Isis, Horus, Osiris, Seti I, Ptah, Ra-Horakhty and Amun), showing that many gods were honoured in cities. In Waset the gods Amun, Mut, Khonsu and Montu were strongly worshipped. In Men-Nefer it was Ptah, Sekhmet, Imhotep and Hathor as well as deified kings. On the Elephantine Khnumn, Satis and Anukis, as well as several Ptolomaic shrines to Isis. I cannot think of one major city, let alone a capital where the temples to only one god were erected. Even in Temples dedicated to deities with few or no connected other gods there were usually shrines to others. Atum was worshipped in Heliopolis, Shu and Tefnut are not. However, Ra and Ra-Horakhte are honoured with temples of considerable size, as is Thoth. Only in Alexandria was one Egyptian god worshipped in a city (Isis), and I don't think Alexandria counts as technically it wasn't classed as Egypt (the Ptolemies were rulers of Alexandria and the Two lands in their titulary). Why does Akhetaten show no evidence of other deities being officially worshipped.

My sources come from "The Temples of Ancient Egypt" by Richard H. Wilkinson and from "The Temple of Abydos", which is the approved guide to the Temple.

Thank you for your sources It is appreciated. Now as to whether a shine is the equal to a temple? i don't believe it is. All Egypt's god's/goddess' were related either by marriage or parents. So, it would not be unusal for a shine to Horus in a Hathor temple, he was often considered to be her husband. As Mut was to Amun, and their son Khnosu. Same with Ptah, Sekhmet and Imhotep, as for Hathor in Early Dynastic Egypt there was a seperation between Sekhmet and Hathor but this faded over time and they became considered different aspects of the same Goddess.

Heliopolis or Iunu it was the city of the Sun god so shines, temples for all the sun gods i would expect to find there and i do.

Now here is an aspect of Akhetaten that i don't believe you are considering.
Compared to the other cities of Egypt it was a newborn city, for the cult of the Aten. i don't expect to find many shines, temples except for Aten. Not because it is Akhenaten's major god but because the city had no history. Of course we can't say that if it had survived millenniums as did the other cult cities it too would have had shines to other gods. It didn't. But to claim it couldn't have happened can't really be stated either because we don't know and it didn' survive.

There were at least two temples to the Aten at Akhetaten, probably more (I haven't checked in a while). There are however no depictions of the other gods that i know of. In the tombs there are depictions of the Royal Family and the Aten, the previous Litany of Re and other religous works are nearly non-existent there. The only evidence we have of monotheistic worship at Akhetaten is several small statues found inside the homes of ordinary people. This does not portray what the official and actual beliefs of the Royal Family were. Information also taken from "The Complete Temples of Ancient Egypt", "Sacred Sites of Egypt" and "Egyptian Rock Cut Tombs".

Thansk Zericzorg. That is the generally accepted view but there are theorists who say the Smenkhare was the brother of Akhenaten, and others that say "he" was none other than Nefertiti assuming the role of Pharaoh. I personally believe that he was the brother of Tutankhamun but I do have nagging doubts over the lack of evidence. Is there any evidence about the identity of his mother. Was it Kiya, Nefertiti or possibly a third and unknown wife? As to the Nefertiti theory I think it is an interesting one but no all that likely. I wont go on though as I need to do quite a bit of extensive research before I commit myself to anything sollid! Until then, kisses. And i'll see you guys soon!
Mwah

Well, I'm wading into this one rather late in the game, but I lean toward the (somewhat conservative) position that Smenkhare was Akhenaten's son by a lesser wife (Nefertiti having given him only daughters), said lesser wife having also given birth to Tutankhaten(amen). That would make Smenkhare Tut's older brother. There is some evidence of Smenkhare having had a short co-regency with Akhenaten, and he may have tried to continue his father's policies, but did not long survive him. This left Tut as the only viable male candidate, young and therefore possibly susceptible to the blandishments of the Amon and other priesthoods...and the story continues from there. Now excuse my ignorance on this important subject, but can any of the members tell me what DNA testing (if any) has been done on the mummy of Tutankhamen, the mummy (skull and partial skeleton, actually) found in KV 55, and any other mummies/remains believed to be of this particular family? Looking forward to your responses.

ZericsKirog: did you read Pauline Gedge's Twelveth Transforming? Sorry but I don't agree with you and Pauline. I heard that Akhenaten had a daughter from Meritaten (I don't belive it, too, but it's not for this topic) but from Tiy? Uh... Sounds totally weird and... disgusting... Just sorry, but I totally hate that book.

Some people say Smenkhare was actually Nefertiti? though I am less and less disagreeing with this theory.
I always believed Tiye was not just a commoner but a descendant of Ahmes-Nefertari, and that infact Tiye is a pet name for Nefertari. I've always believed Ay was the father of Nefertiti, and if not, then in some way related to Tiye. I can picture Tiye giving the big role of Great Royal wife to a niece, or even a younger cousin. As far as Smenkhare goes, I can believe he was a brother of Akhenaten. Though I'm not sure if he they were related through Tiye, Amenotep III had many wives, so it could have been by another wife. Does it mention anywhere that any of Amenhoteps daughters had children by him? Though then if that was the case, Akhenaten's daughter would be going below herself, marrying her fathers half brother?! So putting this aside, I can see Smenkhare marrying one of Akhenaten's daughters, though I believe she died in child birth. It doesn't mention anything of a son. Only mention of a daughter by her, and one by Ankhenspaaten these girls both had children(I think anyways), Either way Ankhenspaaten would seem to be a lot older than Tut, she would probably be born before her father reached the throne, could it be her daughter married Tut?
(sighs) ok I'm done LOL

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