"I went to Jerusalem to become acquainted (Gk. istoria) with Cephas" - Paul's words from Galatians 1:18.

Anybody Attending This Church in Louisville Next Week While at the Southern Baptist Convention?

A Kentucky pastor is inviting his flock to bring guns to church to celebrate the Fourth of July and the Second Amendment. New Bethel Church is welcoming "responsible handgun owners" to wear their firearms inside for a June event at the church. An ad says there will be a handgun raffle, patriotic music and information on gun safety.

"We're just going to celebrate the upcoming theme of the birth of our nation," said pastor Ken Pagano. "And we're not ashamed to say that there was a strong belief in God and firearms - without that this country wouldn't be here."

Pagano, 50, said some members of his church were concerned that President Obama's administration could restrict gun ownership, and they supported the plan for the event when Pagano asked their opinion. He said the point was not to mix worship with guns, though he may reference some passages from the Bible. "Firearms can be evil and they can be useful," he said. "We're just trying to promote responsible gun ownership and gun safety."

The Southern Baptist Convention convenes in Louisville, Kentucky next week at the Kentucky Exposition Center. My wife and I will probably be attending the 9th and 0 Baptist Church or Highview Baptist Church, and not Pastor Pagano's AG church.

No need to go to a church impressed with guns when we will already plan to be at a Convention known for her fireworks.

Wade:Mid DayI believe this magazine to be of a high quality!Such wonderful articles as "Sex among nuns common!A daily section called "Bedroom Romp"finally I knew it was far superior to the Enqiurer because of the 5th or so comment in that particular article.....I doubt that would be published in the U.S

Like Les, I think you are so anxious to get to Louisville that you are jumping the "gun" by a week.

However, don't bring your gun when you go since you will not be able to get through the metal detector at the Will Rogers Airport.

Given that you are going to the SBC convention it might be more effective to wear defensive gear, however. Instead of packing heat I recommend bring full body armor.

:)

When you get back how about some de-briefing for us guys who aren't going.

I'll make you a deal. You tell us what happened up-close-and-personal in Louisville and I'll give a front-line report on what your former colleagues are doing in Jax.

Wade, seriously I think this convention may pivotal. There has been more "buzz" leading up to it than is usually the case. It will be interesting to see what happens as all of the posturing relative to the GCR document plays out in practice. Not a single word from the "top secret" meeting between Dr. Hunt and the state execs has leaked out. Probably it will be possible to infer what happened or didn't happen by listening to what is said at Louisville.

I'm not going. But I'll be glued to the tube here wathing the podcast.

My father owned a gun. It had belonged to my pepere (grandfather) and to his father before him in Canada.

When the police in our city conducted a program to have people turn in guns that they no longer wanted in their homes for 'whatever reason', my father took the old gun down and turned it in. All the guns turned in were to be destroyed. The officer looked at my father's gun and told him it was a 'collector's item' and probably extremely valuable.But Pop wanted it to be destroyed.That was the same week my brother received his M.D. and became a physician. My brother would have been the one to inherit that gun.

My brother owns hunting rifles now and goes to his farm on weekends. But he does not shoot the deer that walk into view as you sit in the large parlor of that farm house and look out the bay window.The deer come near the house without fear.

Any point to this narrative. No.

No more than someone bringing a gun into the House of the Lord.Whether to shoot a minister in the heart or shoot an abortionist or to teach children to have 'a strong belief in firearms'. No point. Just a narrative.

I reckon you might think of your trusty firearm as a "peacemaker," if you try hard enough.

I'm all for the right to keep and bear arms, although it escapes me why anyone would want or need to keep an assault rifle--the venison wouldn't be worth eating once riddled by one of those.

For an amusing (if I do say so myself) take on a similar subject, I invite Wade's good readers (and the other ones, too) to go to http://onthejerichoroad.blogspot.com/2008/08/preacher-get-your-gun.html.

1. Stand very, very still.2. Be sure it's loaded 3. point and click4. if the flash goes off and scares the bear, better run like hell

Seriously:

Our Family was gathered on the large screen porch of my Aunt Rhoda's house in the mountains of Massachusetts, in Charlamont.Charlamont is way up there on the Mohawk Trail and my Aunt Rhoda lives on the side of a mountain.

There was tons of food on that porch and lots of rocking chairs and fun and laughter, and we all stayed until it got dark.

Someone had the idea to take a group picture before we left that evening: we all stood lined up back by the screen on porch and the picture was taken.

That is when we got the bear.

When the picture came out of the Polaroid, we all were amazed. There, lined up with us, but on the OUTSIDE of the porch screen, was the image of the face of small bear looking in. He was obviously interested in all that food!

My Aunt Rhoda said he comes around sometimes and gets into her trash.

We still asked her if she would beat on a trash can lid loudly with a spoon to scare away the bear so we could get into our cars.The tension was unbearable.

So that was the night my Family bagged a bear. Our Family has that photo to prove it. It's absolutely hysterical! Love, L's

In Philadelphia, there are laws against possession and carrying weapons. Of course all the bad people and police carry weapons. And both of them threaten non-gun carrying people. Yes, police do this often. And they do this even without weapons, just by their supposed authority.

Even ordinary people, in this city of brotherly love, there is so much hate present, you can cut it sometimes.

So for me, I am determined to be abused, ridiculed, spoken down by others and threatened. I will simply call on the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ. He is my protector and savior. My only weapon will be love. Yes, I know, I am naive. I live in this city of "brotherly love", that shows no love to strangers and always seems to bristle with hate. Though it seems to be getting better over the years.

You need to spend some time with my Aunt Rhoda, who is fearless.She says that she is not afraid of the little bear, and that he has to eat, too. We worry about her sometimes. But, truthfully, I think the angels guard her AND that little bear. But, she does say that he makes a mess sometimes.Oh, dear.

We can't get her to come down off of that mountain. She says she is 'rooted there' and that she will die if she ever has to leave that place. It must be wonderful to love a place so much. :) L's

The Founding Fathers trusted the Constitution they gifted us with - but they trusted armed farmers and merchants more, as a safeguard against any tyrant trying to deny us our freedoms. Thus, the Second Amendment.

The most disturbing aspect of this story is that there is a church that is obviously caught up in the idolatrous civil religion of America to the detriment of Christian discipleship.

Full disclosure: I believe government has no right to prohibit gun ownership. More guns, less crime!!! The stats prove it.

I guess it is that time of year again. Christians pushing the myth that a nation built on God's word was born on the 4th of July. There was no nation created that day. The colonies, mainly influenced by Enlightenment thinking and deism, declared themselves independent of British rule. True, the process that eventually caused nationhood was starting to occur, but it would take a military victory and a dozen years or so to create and define the United States. The need for military cooperation and the emergence of a common identity as Americans eventually created this nation. Without the need for military cooperation, there might have been 13 sovereign and independent states for a very long time.

If one wishes to celebrate, perhaps focus should be given to arguably the most influential creation of the Founding Fathers - religious freedom.

Nope. I'll be home by that Saturday. Or, I won't have left yet. I'm not sure if it's the Saturday before or after, but I can't leave for Louisville until Sunday after church, and will be back by the following weekend.

I am curious, along with this, how many folks in Kentucky will add the 'educational' aspect of touring the bourbon-making facilities. Not throwing stones or encouraging, just curious.

And even if you think carrying a firearm to church is a good idea, I would be strongly against taking one into the SBC. Almost as much as I'm against them being carried to budget/finance meetings!

And going on a bit farther, St. Francis called again strongly: "Brother Leo, even if a Friar Minor could preach so well that be should convert all infidels to the faith of Christ, write that perfect joy is not there."

Now when he had been talking this way for a distance of two miles, Brother Leo in great amazement asked him: "Father, I beg you in God's name to tell me where perfect joy is."

And St. Francis replied; "When we come to St. Mary of the Angels, soaked by the rain and frozen by the cold, all soiled with mud and suffering from hunger, and we ring at the gate of the Place and the brother porter comes and says angrily: 'Who are you?' And we say: 'We are two of your brothers.' And he contradicts us, saying: 'You are not telling the truth. Rather you are two rascals who go around deceiving people and stealing what they give to the poor. Go away]' And he does not open for us, but makes us stand outside in the snow and rain, cold and hungry, until night falls-then if we endure all those insults and cruel rebuffs patiently, without being troubled and without complaining, and if we reflect humbly and charitably that that porter really knows us and that God makes him speak against us, oh, Brother Leo, write that perfect joy is there!

'And if we continue to knock, and the porter comes out in anger, and drives us away with curses and hard blows like bothersome scoundrels, saying; 'Get away from here, you dirty thieves-go to the hospital! Who do you think you are? You certainly won't eat or sleep here'--and if we bear it patiently and take the insults with joy and love in our hearts, Oh, Brother Leo, write that that is perfect joy!

And if later, suffering intensely from hunger and the painful cold, with night falling, we still knock and call, and crying loudly beg them to open for us and let us come in for the love of God, and he grows still more angry and says: 'Those fellows are bold and shameless ruffians. I'll give them what they deserve.' And he comes out with a knotty club, and grasping us by the cowl throws us onto the ground, rolling us in the mud and snow, and beats us with that club so much that he covers our bodies with wounds--if we endure all those evils and insults and blows with joy and patience, reflecting that we must accept and bear the sufferings of the Blessed Christ patiently for love of Him, oh, Brother Leo, write: that is perfect joy!

'And now hear the conclusion, Brother Leo. Above all the graces and gifts of the Holy Spirit which Christ gives to His friends is that of conquering oneself and willingly enduring sufferings, insults, humiliations, and hardships for the love of Christ. For we cannot glory in all those other marvelous gifts of God, as they are not ours but God's, as the Apostle says: 'What have you that you have not received?' But we can glory in the cross of tribulations and afflictions, because that is ours, and so the Apostle says: 'I will not glory save in the Cross of Our Lord Jesus Christ.'"

Wade:When you went to the Orange Bowl I believe you said you stayed in Miami Lakes.Just next to Miami Lakes is a Church and School called New Testament Baptist. I attended that Church and on more then one occasion people tried to steal the offering but the church had a came plan where the deacons would always lock the access to one location and at least 10 people with guns would stand up and point them at the perp.The pastor told him to surrender or he would likely not survive the rain of metal into him.On every occasion I saw it always worked flawlessly and no one died.Guns in lawful peoples hands are always a deterrent to crime.

Why do some feel the need to promote the constitution as equal to the Bible? Why do some feel the need to trust in firearms rather than God? Why do some feel that a peace achieved by force is actually peace? Why, in a Kingdom where swords are beaten into plowshares, are we so keen on promoting the use of guns?

" I attended that Church and on more then one occasion people tried to steal the offering but the church had a came[game] plan where the deacons would always lock the access to one location and at least 10 people with guns would stand up and point them at the perp."

At Emmanuel Baptist Church, they encourage you to take from the offering plate up to $20-, but to leave the checks, if one is in need. If they need more, to contact the staff, and they would be helped.

I don't have a problem with guns. I was raised up with them, and was taught how to safely handle them, and I passed that on to my children. I am a big believer in the 2nd amendment, and all that, but. . . bring-your-gun-to-church-Sunday? That stupifies me. We have several police officers who are members, and they do not bring their firearms to church. It is no rule that the church has, it is just respect. My family would be out of that church so fast we'd leave an after-image behind. And that stuff about civil religion that someone mentionedf--yep, that's it.

Have we so quickly forgotten recent incidences in the news where people have been murdered in churches? Haven't we learned anything from all those school shootings either?

Suppose someone broke into your (I'm using "you" generically here) home and pointed a gun at a loved one. Would a good Christian just stand there and pray? Ask the criminal nicely to put the gun down?

If we think it's right to shoot the intruder before a loved one is murdered, then how do the ethics change when even more people are involved?

This is the age-old debate about pacifism. I've known some pacifists, and they have this disconnect between individuals and nations or other groups, as if it's somehow better to let large numbers of people die through lack of defense, yet when we put names and faces on a few of them, "that's different".

Personally, to stand idly by while a loved one is threatened amounts to treason or disloyalty, and violates the fact that "love always protects". Those who don't care for their own are "worse than an unbeliever".

So it follows from there that if we announce to the world that there will be no guns in our church buildings, then we sacrifice our people on the altar of theoretical pacifism, for we have set ourselves up as easy targets.

While I still would not use a church service to glory in the implements of death, I would nonetheless feel much safer knowing that if any murderer came that they would have little chance of doing harm.

There is a huge difference between putting up no defense for one's self, and putting up no defense for someone else.

Paula said... While I still would not use a church service to glory in the implements of death, I would nonetheless feel much safer knowing that if any murderer came that they would have little chance of doing harm.

My thoughts exactly. I question the propriety of promoting a special church service in which people were encouraged to bring guns, as it has nothing to do with the purpose for which the church gathers, and it could be seen as sending a message that encourages resolving conflict with violence. But I would be very unhappy if there was some law or rule barring people who are licensed to carry a concealed firearm from doing so in a church. A perpetrator would be less likely to open fire in a room where he thought it a strong possibility that others in the room might be able to fire back.-----Tom

In discussing gun rights with a fellow minister of mine awhile back on God, guns, and guts statement that I have seen to be popular. He agreed we need to be careful putting our trust in the gun. Its a right that indeed should be protected but it is not our trust.

"Those of us who live in the South AGREE" - This pastor and church have lost their way. Please don't speak as though we in the south are 'one voice" on every social issue! We can think for ourselves, thank you!

It's me L's,You said you wondered what a blessing for guns would look like.

If there is such a blessing, I think it must be related to a time when there was, and will be again, no more need to use guns to kill our 'brothers'.

We live 'in the moment'. But, in the religion of Judaixm and of Catholicism, there are sacred moments that are 'relived' outside of time.And we are able to be one with those who were there then.

A reporter tells this story:

"I drove south on this sniper road where the Israelis and Palestinians shoot at one another, before arriving at the Tomb of the Patriarchs.

The last time I had been there, there were 10,000 Jews dancing in the festival. Today, it was empty, so dangerous that four soldiers with helmets and machine guns had to escort me inside — four.

And I go to this little tiny room between Abraham and Sarah's tomb.

All three faiths agree this is where they're buried.

There's a ramshackle synagogue there with a chandelier hanging down with half the bulbs out, and it's there that Abraham, at 175, dies.

And in one of the most haunting and overlooked passages in the Hebrew Bible, Genesis 25:9, his sons Ishmael and Isaac, rivals since before they were born, estranged since childhood, leaders of opposing nations, come, stand side by side, and bury their father.

Abraham achieves in death what he could never achieve in life, this moment of reconciliation. A hopeful side-by-side flicker of possibility when they're not rivals or warriors; Jews, Christians, or Muslims. They are brothers."

A blessing 'transforms', changes, elevates something from the ordinary into the sacred realm, calling down God's loving care and protection and bringing hope. Maybe Genesis 25:9 itself, is a kind of blessing over guns: that there CAN be a 'reconciliation' between Abrahamic brothers?

Dear TIM, it is hard for me to imagine a blessing for guns, when, for years, I had to practice school 'lock-down' drills in preparation for the possibility of something unspeakable;and, long ago, in a drug-rehab school for teenage boys, I saw scars from bullet wounds on these children;so Tim, I don't think I'm the best person to ask. For some of us, guns 'symbolize' something unholy. For some of us, guns represent the opportunity to defend our liberty and to protect the oppressed. For some, guns are a source of food on the table, and can make the difference between starvation and survival.

But, of course, guns are only neutral objects. Maybe the blessing should be for those who must sometimes use them. Love, L's

Women In Ministry [Cheryl Schatz] > Woman called by God as missionary now has regrets.Recently I received an email from a woman who purchased my 4 DVD set “Women in Ministry Silenced or Set Free?” and then wrote me about the impact that the DVDs had on her. I was so touched by her testimony that I asked permission to share her story with the world. I have removed her name as she requested anonymity because of her situation. I hope that you will be encouraged and touched as I was when I read her story.

I do believe in patriotism and believe we should support our country. Sometimes I think this nation is not grateful enough for its veterans, and that certainly includes me (in guilt, but I'm not a veteran). We live in the best country on earth, and I only wish we were even better.

But I think that American flags and patriotic songs for the most part do not belong in the church building. After all, we do not require embassies of other nations here in America to fly our flags or the like. And I know that's not exactly apples to apples, but I think it's the same principle. A friend told me that we take national sovereignty far more seriously than we do the sovereignty of God, and I agree.

And, what will happen if pro-homosexual legislation passes that effectively silences any religious dissent? Will there still be the clamor for patriotism then, even here in the South, as there is now? Or will they finally give up on America and start focusing primarily on Christ (like they should be from the start in my opinion, not that I think they should give up on America).

Patriotism is great, but it beats the only tune it knows on the only drum it has.

Actually I was thinking of the blessing of the guns and the story of Abrahams sons coming together for that one moment.

I am so conservative I squeek but am no longer a closed mind.

Today I attended an ordination of an old friend who has quite a story to tell. Raised a catholic, started seminary with an Episcopalian, studied with the pentacostles, joined a Baptist seminary, and today, was ordained into the Christian Denomination of Diciples of Christ.

All the above mentioned groups were represented by pastors and a priest who truly loved the one being ordained. 5 different groups, all in a 2.5 hour worship service and all preaching about Jesus. It was moving.

Oh, my dear friend, a 50 something grandmother who has been ministering to the poor and homeless, the sick and the shut-ins while a volunteer member of each of these groups church staff.

Over 200 people thre to honor one little old grandma who might be the Kansas City Mother Teresa

L's, Yes God Can.....get the fighting sides together, even the muslims and jews and protestants and... yes God can even bless the guns.

He has touched thousands through a little ol woman I know who is very quiet and quite shy.

It is strange that we so often overlook the ancient beautiful Scriptures that fore-ordain reconciliation in the Hand of the Lord, in all of its implications.

Here is found another Scripture: in Ezekiel 37, there is the story of the Lord asking 'mortals' to take two sticks: on one to write the name of Judah and on the other to write the name of Joseph. These two tribes of the Israelites had been estranged. The Lord took the two sticks into His Hand and combined them into one, so that never again would the Houses of Israel be separated, as they had been sealed into one by the Hand of the Lord Himself.

There is the other great example of two pieces of wood joined together to form an instrument of reconciliation. There is this to think about:

"Ezekiel’s vision of two sticks, inscribed with the names of the divided kingdoms of ancient Israel, becoming one in God’s hand, is a powerful image of the power of God to bring about reconciliation, to do for a people entrenched in division what they cannot do for themselves.

It is a highly evocative metaphor for divided Christians, prefiguring the source of reconciliation found at the heart of the Christian proclamation itself.

On the two pieces of wood which form the cross of Christ, the Lord of history takes upon Himself the wounds and divisions of humanity. In the totality of Jesus’ gift of Himself on the Cross, He holds together human sin and God’s redemptive steadfast love.

To be a Christian is to be baptised into this death, through which the Lord, in His boundless Mercy, etches the names of wounded humanity onto the wood of the Cross, holding us to Himself and restoring our relationship with God and with each other. "

So much to think about.I love the story that you tell about the 'Mother Teresa of Kansas City'. In the light of Holy Scripture, I am not at all surprised by the healing of the 'breach' that those who came together to celebrate this ordination represent.

'That all may be One . . . so that the world may believe.' :)Love, L's

Also, there were Asians, whites, Hispanics, and there were African Americans. (I don't always know the proper terminology to say without offending someones race, so please ALL for forgive me in my ignorance)

It was a great worship service and I didn't know until it was pointed out at the end that there were 6 DIFFERENT DENOMINATIONS AND 4 VERY VISIBLE RACES!