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For the typical middle aged consoles and the old aged uprights, which is about all that I tune, not a bit. I concentrate mostly on stability and general octave stretch. The hammers are rarely in any condition to worry about tuning tone into the unisons. I just mention these things because others are also interested, not that I have much of an opportunity to use them.

But really, I don't know what you are babbling about, and please don't try to explain.

_________________________
Jeff DeutschlePart-Time TunerWho taught the first chicken how to peck?

..."1. If the unisons are pitched very slightly higher, so that they have partials that beat equally with partials on the center string, is their fundamental also beating against the fundamental of the center string?"...

You might have read my previous post about unisons.

Anyway, I've not mesured the partials of an outer string, after my unisoning, and compared with the partials of the centre string yet. This may answer your question.

Jeff's statement that if one partial meets, then all partials should meet, may be true in theory. In my opinion each real string has its own "irrational" story. What I know for sure is that I can reinforce the centre string's pitch, by gaining the 2nd partial of the centre string.

In other words, in the unison there is a very precise point where you hear the foundamental and its 2nd partial, the latter going absolutely straight, like if it was surfing on the foundamental. That beam gains the longest sustain.

..."2. Assuming that the answer is yes, is the perceived pitch of the "note" raised to the pitch half-way between the pitch of the center string and the pitches (which may differ) of the unisons?...

Half-way, I do not know. Generally, those unisons raise the pitch.

..."Which means that the perceived pitch emerges from the beating fundamentals and partials of the three strings."...

Definitely, the perceived pitch emerges from the fundamentals and partials of the three strings, it emerges from what is beating and what is not.

..."3. Is it thus true to say that, in this method of tuning, there is no one string in the trichord that, if plucked, would be at the same pitch as the pitch heard when all three strings are played together?"...

True. There is a sum-effect that raises the pitch of the whole trichord. Take this with a POS, as it comes only from my empirical, aural survey.

..."4. The 12'ths are slightly flat across the keyboard, if I understand correctly."...

Correct. Delta-flat all across the keyboard.

..."Should they (12ths), after the unisons are tuned in this way, be heard as just? Should some of them, at least, such as above A440?"

No, after the unisons are tuned, all 12ths must be heard delta-flat.

..."5. Are the two outer strings usually in unison with one another (as just as possible), or are they pitched to beat with different partials on the center string."...

I tune them to that beam, and I've never checked outer strings one another.

..."Or does this vary, according to the piano and overall tone desired?"...

In my tuning, I happen to pitch with different partials on bichords, or grands trichord, when I find odd strings.

..."I'm sorry if I seem to be asking the same question several times"...

For the typical middle aged consoles and the old aged uprights, which is about all that I tune, not a bit. I concentrate mostly on stability and general octave stretch. The hammers are rarely in any condition to worry about tuning tone into the unisons. I just mention these things because others are also interested, not that I have much of an opportunity to use them.

But really, I don't know what you are babbling about, and please don't try to explain.

Please dont quit, Jeff, the fact that you have to tune less than first grade instruments does not mean you cant benefit of that raised harmony. In fact I just believe the opposite, it may well give you some fun, as even uninteresting pianos get something with Chas.

The method with the felt mute and "preparatory tuning is a very good one, if you ever use a EDT you can see very easily how the strings settle and the pitch change when you are going thru the scale (unisons tuned or not).

The way you are yet tuning makes me think that you ar yet using some "auto settling" property of the tuning (be it with th 5th s or with the 12the, the instrument seem to find its correct place when it is pushed in the good direction, then tuning Chas means only using RBI to have more precision or evenness, the raised resonance put you more easily than expected in the correct pitch region.

The emphasis of 2nd partial is a help for resonance, it is just a way to listen that allow you to thicken the tone without using beats in unison (just a coupling question, to me).

I suggest you experiment on the relations of the 2nd inversion of the minor chord with the double octave of the second note. You may find some interesting thing....

Besty regards

_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills

I've been making notes about tuning to CHas (an actual tuning, as opposed to the model), trying to create a list of general requirements. This list is just meant to recapitulate what I've gathered. Corrections and additions would be appreciated:

1. The bearing is set over two octaves. (NO: See below.)2. The intervals of the two octaves are divided up equally, (NO: See below.)as much as possible, although of course iH on some pianos may require repitching some notes slightly.3. The lowest possible partials are listened to when checking beat rates:octaves at 2:1 , doubles at 4:1, 12ths at 3:1 ; 5ths at 3:2 not using the checks that compare 2 fast beating intervals, as the M6 M17th to check the 12th size.4. Double octaves and 12ths beat equally.5. Double octaves are very slightly wide.6. 12ths are very slightly narrow from A4 to the top. (NO: See below.)7. Octaves beat very slightly wider as they move to each end of the keyboard. (NO: See below.)8. But the 12th's remain slightly narrow from A4 to the top. Moving towards the bass, they widen. (NO: See below.)9. M5's become just or nearly just in the upper regions. 10. 4ths become more narrow as they approach the top. (Not exactly: See below. They become less wide.)11. Unisons are often very slightly wide to reinforce the 2nd partial.12. Resonance is to be preferred to power: Although the bearing\temperament octave (three octaves in CHas) is slightly wide of theoretical ET, the upper keyboard is often "milder," than many contemporary ET's, since lower partials are listened to for beats. (Partly right. See below.)

Hi Jake, thanks for this list, a valid contribute. Since I do not know how to control the editing, I'll write some CORRECTIONS/ADDITIONS with capital letters.

..."I've been making notes about tuning to CHas (an actual tuning, as opposed to the model), trying to create a list of general requirements. This list is just meant to recapitulate what I've gathered. Corrections and additions would be appreciated:

1. The bearing is set over THREE OR MORE octaves (FROM C6 DOWN TO STRINGS CROSSING, ON CENTRE STRINGS).2. The intervals OF THESE octaves are divided up equally, as much as possible, although of course iH on some pianos may require repitching some notes slightly.3. The lowest possible partials are listened to when checking beat rates:octaves at 2:1 , doubles at 4:1, 12ths at 3:1 ; 5ths at 3:2 not using the checks that compare 2 fast beating intervals, as the M6 M17th to check the 12th size.4. Double octaves and 12ths beat equally.5. Double octaves are very slightly wide, CONSTANT ALL ALONG THE KEYBOARD.6. 12ths are very slightly narrow, CONSTANT ALL ALONG THE KEYBOARD .7. Octaves beat very slightly (PROGRESSIVE) wider as they move to each end of the keyboard.8. But the 12th's remain slightly narrow, AND CONSTANT ALL ALONG THE KEYBOARD9. M5's become PROGRESSIVELY just or nearly just in the upper regions. 10. 4ths become LESS WIDE as they approach C3.11. Unisons are PREFERABLY very slightly wide to reinforce the 2nd partial.12.(SUSTAIN) Resonance is to be preferred to (ATTACK) power: Although the bearing\temperament octave (THREE+ octaves in CHas) is slightly wide of theoretical ET, the upper keyboard is often "milder," than many contemporary ET's, since lower partials are listened to for beats."

- . - . - . -

I do not know if Point 12 is correct. I could say … “Although the bearing\temperament octave (THREE+ octaves in CHas) is slightly wide of theoretical (historical?) ET, the upper keyboard is often "milder," than many (?) (there seem to be two, Cordier's and Stopper's) THEORETICAL contemporary ET's, since the Chas octave is less stretched.”

Unfortunally, I do not know which partials would Cordier or Stopper listen to, I could not get their aural tuning sequence either.

Hi Alfredo,I attempted implementing your above techniques as closely as possible during my tunings on Saturday on both upright and grand pianos.

The most difficult part I found was controlling the openness of the unisons against the openness of stretch I chose for the octaves up the register.

The bearing section I expanded was C3-C4, using A-440 as the mark. Normally, I use F3-A4.

After the tunings, I played several different pieces of music and on each different piano, the salesman in charge of the showroom commented very positively, that he liked it. Because I had been using a different method, CHAS felt different, sounded different. When I was at the piano playing, it sounded in-tune, but loose to me. When I was at the other end of the showroom and the salesman was playing - the tuning sounded very lively, pure and most of all, musical and resonant - a whole piano sound, not just intervals strung together (which as a novice tuner I've been consumed with)

My preference is for a slightly tighter sound, but this method allows me to experiment with the piano's "whole sound", rather than simply listening to intervals. I still check outside 6ths against inside 3ds, then a quick check of 10ths and 17ths up the register as it pertains evenness of the stretch. The precise evenness of beat progression up the register is sometimes altered by the piano itself, I suppose inHarmonicity, false beats, and lack of experience on my part, are the culprits.

Did you receive my tuning sample with checks? Thanks for the descriptions of your methods.

I'm glad for your positive feedback. And your approach, trying different techniques, can only open to the best for all of us.

Though my tuning routine is related to strings loadings onto the bridge, I do not think it is a must. What is important is to know what to go for and why.

For instance, the little variations in loadings could be evaluated in other ways, depending on your idea of the sound-board's elasticity or your strings and structure settlings technique. My evaluation is not proposed as the best.

..."The most difficult part I found was controlling the openness of the unisons against the openness of stretch I chose for the octaves up the register."...

Unisons raise the pitch, but the increase in strings tension does load more onto the bridge, so eventually experience will help.

..."The bearing section I expanded was C3-C4, using A-440 as the mark. Normally, I use F3-A4."...

Did you mean C3-A4?

..."After the tunings, I played several different pieces of music and on each different piano, the salesman in charge of the showroom commented very positively, that he liked it. Because I had been using a different method, CHAS felt different, sounded different."...

Still today I'm surprised by the effects of this beating form, both for the "in tune" feeling and the resonance power. A small piano too gains so much brightness and volume, like if it was double in lenth.

.."My preference is for a slightly tighter sound, but this method allows me to experiment with the piano's "whole sound", rather than simply listening to intervals."...

Yes, the whole sound is relevant. Today I do not make a distinction between the first temperament-octave and the whole keyboard.

..."The precise evenness of beat progression up the register is sometimes altered by the piano itself, I suppose inHarmonicity, false beats, and lack of experience on my part, are the culprits."...

If you are tuning with beats, do not submit to iH. You'll be able to lay down your favorite tuning form by imposing beats coherence for all intervals.

..."Did you receive my tuning sample with checks? Thanks for the descriptions of your methods."...

I did receive your samples and listened to them. Progressions can be improved, but they are already good standard. One point: when you check the intervals progression go slowly and regularly, do not change the choromatic sequence's rhythm, you risk to confuse the increasing (or decreasing) beat rate you want, with your increasing (or decreasing) playing rhythm.

Our tendency (O) is to hear what we would like to hear, being sort of "generous" with ourselves. If you can, be severe and always ready and willing to perfect your Real beat hearing. Choromatic 12ths are easy to evaluate, and vivid and reliable too.

Loading the strings on the bridge is a fine concept, and something to take into account as it pertains to string/pin setting for tuning stability and resonance. Mushy pinblocks on some of the pianos means one has to work harder to get any feedback.

Yes, experience over the next few hundred or so tunings will be a big help in terms of accuracy, consistency, and efficiency.

I did mean C3-A4. I will look into further expanding the bearing to C3-C5. My preference is to begin stretching octaves up the register as much as possible. The trick is to make the stretch consistent. This will take a great deal more experience.

I agree - the tempered (bearing) section is just that and it has to blend in with the rest of the stretch.

Good catch on the check sample...I did have a tendency to speed up the interval check speed as the beat rates increased...I also have a tendency when I play to speed up in fortissimo and slow down in pianissimo!

Chromatic 12ths are a good check to ensure those intervals are not too narrow or wide. It is an easy check.

No question, and I am of the philosophy that the best sounding temperament in the world is useless without perfect unisons.

I'll let you know how it goes...this weekend I have 5 scheduled tunings.

Ran across this article (may be well-known) which has a section on the relative pitches of unisons. Interesting reflections on how unison offsets affect M3's, etc. See the section "The Effect of Multiple Stringing on the Sound of the Piano," about 1/4 into the essay. However, unisons in general are discussed, without regard to the octaves in which they are pitched:

The issue reported by GP and quoted below is a recurrent phenomenon. It may suggest to hold the strings loadings and adjustements, the pins charge and the piano settlings and Time in due consideration. These factors are as relevant as the tuning form itself (O).

..."Here is what I have noticed these last 5 tunings...since I received the piano in 2007......when I go back to tune the whole piano, the upper 2 treble sections are the worst. The very top treble is not nearly as bad as the section below it. In fact, that top section is quite stable in unisons and pitch.

The section that is a problem, between D#5-G6, that section constantly goes flat first before any other section, and the unisons drift out first there before any other section....that's why we pounded down the pins, thinking that would help. For example, after tuning from bass to treble, that problematic area, after 1 or 2 pieces that really pound the piano, that section is already somewhat flat! Then slowly, the more the piano is played, the whole piano starts to drift flat, it never seems to go sharp."...

..."The PTG convention in 2011 will be held in Kansas City, his (Kent Swafford's) home and the home of PTG. It may be a good idea to plan for that event, to present your idea, mine and that of Alfredo Capurso at that time, perhaps at some kind of "side show" where three very similar pianos can be tuned in each style. Let the audience and musicians give their comments and approval or disapproval to each without them knowing which piano is tuned in which way."...

As you know, I'm also trying to share a new Temperamental Theory and a modern ET model deriving from a new approach to beats and resonance.

In another forum, one colleague was asking for a short description to help to focus on the important principles, to understand the system more quickly. I hope this can help:

About Chas pre-tuning method and sequence:

- the use of all intervals for an ET where all intervals are progressive- the use of low partials beats for reducing iH's influence- not counting but comparing beats (progressive and even beating ones)- guessing only the first octave for eventually perfect it- drawing a more accentuated stretch curve for compensating the piano's adjustments (let the piano get the form)- inverting the beat rate progression of 5ths for eventually gaining even beating 12ths (narrow) and 15ths (wide) all along the keyboard.

About Chas system's theory:

- the static zero-beating approach is replaced with "stable dynamism"- zero-beating "pure" intervals do not equal "more consonant"- beats return the strings partials qualities, so giving character and tension (read colour) to each single interval- no interval needs to be beat-less- all intervals (all partials) can compromise for a geometric Optimum, for a resonant and stable beating whole- flows of beats and outcoming partials determine infinite sound atmospheres.

This is also what I would really like to talk about, I would like to explain Chas whole ratio, why and how any scale practical arrangement (including your EBVT, Patrick's EBVT + pure 12ths, and so on) can eventually depart from this balanced geometrical entity in the most natural (and human) way.

I'll be very happy if PTG will promote wider understanding of this theory and I'll welcome any form of collaboration or support that you may personally be able to offer.

Regards, a.c.

CHAS THEORY - RESEARCH REPORT BY G.R.I.M. (Department of Mathematics, University of Palermo, Italy):

..."The hammer technique I use avoids the bending and twisting of the tuning pin and causes the entire string segment to move simultaneously. Frankly, the notion that one must "feel" the pin moving only means that you are twisting it and therefore have to go through more effort to undo that.

I will be interested to read what you say has been written recently by Jim Coleman, however. When I teach my students, I tell them that the string is elastic, like a rubber band (indeed the French word for that is «un élastique»). The tuning pin is like a spring. If one "turns" the pin slowly, one does feel it move, yes but at the same time, one is inevitably putting a twist or torque into it. The change in tension upon the speaking length happens and we can hear that or the ETD reads it but there is some residual parts of the string which may not have responded, there also may be more tension between the tuning pin and the first bearing point. If that that tension gets to high in an attempt to raise the pitch of the string, it will break.

So, I firmly believe in what I learned so many years ago, that an impact movement of the tuning hammer is the most efficient and mechanically correct movement. If it were really necessary to "feel" the pin moving as many technicians claim (I know that many, if not most have been taught that), it would mean that the impact style tuning hammer is a worthless tool. Clearly, this is not true for some of the finest technicians I know use one. Dean Reyburn is one of them. He designed and markets such a tool. One does not "feel" the pin move as is described and claimed to be essential. Therefore, I don't believe it is essential. I actually believe it is counter productive, even potentially damaging."

- . - . - . -

I cannot write tonight but if you colleagues want to elaborate on this..."impact movement"? or "feel the pin", and charge it for counter-balancing the string's tension?

What you have shown to me and that looks like those old basic "first lesson in tuning : untwist the pin, raise the pitch, then twist it back a little" took sense, in the way it make the differnce between a basically settled system, and a system wich is at the same time settled hard as stone, and charged with the utmost tension.

To get there with more fast tuning hammer technique it is necessary to come back again and again to wedge the appropriate tension in the system until it is charged to the top.

The other way to settle as strong is to use much more heavy blows, but then the precision of the tuning lowers, and for many reasons I avoid playing too hard.

As I stated the tone is the main reason why I appreciate that "basic way" , but having a precise control on pitch while at the same time finding the utmost settling was an eye opener (or may I say an ear ?)

That said it serves me to know what I am doing wand what level of precision/stability I will access, while tuning with my more usual way (faster !).

In any case the good sensations thru the tuning hammer are what provide us control on the output, to the last 10ths of cst. I learned to wedge and to shim micro moves of the bottom of the pin, when using EDT's and working on pianos that where tuned once or twice a day. The need is differnet when doing a yearly tuning indeed, and I liked the idea to have mostly top evaluate how the soundboard and bridge is accepting the new tension.

Lot of confidence and good sensations !

Be well, I hope other colleagues will shime in, generlaly spêaking not many tuners like to speak of basic tuning technique, most often fancy tricks , while basics are left as if what was shown to us in our early age was of little value !

I'd say that simply we where not able to understand it all at that moment, that is all !

Best regards

Edited by Kamin (04/12/1005:33 PM)

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It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills

The problem I think GP has with the 5th and 6th octaves is that it needs a pitch raise first in that section of the piano and like many technicians, he wants to avoid the necessary preliminary pass. This is very common. The task of tuning is so difficult that doing it once is arduous enough but to have to do it twice is beyond contemplation.

The piano has very tight tuning pins and a Wapin bridge (3 pins in it instead of two). If that whole section is even just two cents flat and each string is only raise to target pitch, by the time the section is finished, it would already be expected to be 0.5 cents flat. If, by the twisting motion of the tuning hammer, some clockwise torque has been placed in the tuning pin and there is residual unequalized tension across the bridge pins and duplex sections, that residual tension will resolve, the tuning pin will untwist and the whole section, especially with the hard playing by the player system, will end up very near where it started.

So, I recommended as a pitch raise technique, each string should be tuned even sharper than is usually recommended, such as 1 cent for each 2 cents the section is flat. The pitch raise function does not need to be done with the same amount of precision as fine tuning, just something approximate and therefore not as painstaking and stressful. When the pitch raise has been completed, give each key at least three very hard test blows. Then sample some strings from that section again. If most strings are now correct or within a very close range such as +/- 0.5 cents, it should accept a fine tuning. If they are still mostly all flat, unfortunately a pitch raise correction must again be performed. One must also be careful not to over correct. If everything is too sharp, it will tend to climb again when lowered.

I am not expecting that GP could learn to use the impact type hammer technique that I use. He is a novice tuner. He knows only how to "turn" the tuning pin until the pattern on the ETD stands still. This is OK but it must be understood that if everything is flat, just raising each string until the ETD says it is right will inevitably result in the whole thing going flat again in short order.

The 5th and 6th octaves are more sensitive to that than the rest of the piano. There is moderate tension there and that part of the scale is used more than the very highest and lowest parts of the piano. The wound strings are far less apt to go flat in the same way. There is a combination of just enough length of string, moderate tension and heavy use to cause them to go flat easily. The high treble has shorter and higher tensioned strings. The low tenor and midrange has longer strings and lower tension.

I often do three passes in the midrange and treble for the highest quality concert tuning I do (such as last Friday on the Steinway). Even though the piano was only slightly flat (generally about 3 cents), if all I did was to raise each string to the target pitch one time, the tuning would end up quite flawed. This would be regardless of how I did it, whether to use a strip mute or a single wedge and regardless of how well I settled each string as I went. I would only be deceiving myself if I thought otherwise.

I have often heard technicians claim that "strip mutes don't work" but if each unison is tuned as a whole while proceeding, "they all stay". This is only wishful thinking. The unisons may be solid but if one goes back to the ETD program to see if each unison is locked on to the target pitch to within a tolerance of 0.1 cents, the truth will be revealed. Aurally, it won't test out as desired either.

To try to change the pitch of the piano and fine tune it simultaneously is only "fighting" with the piano. The piano will always win the fight and the technician will lose. I can tune a piano twice in 45 minutes and have better, more stable results than most people will have who "fight" with the piano for an hour and a half. That is because I know how the piano will behave and I make a preliminary correction that anticipates how it will behave.

Isaac, what you did not see in that video and was perhaps some of the reason for your criticism is that the video itself was really only about the double octave and octave-5th comparison. I first showed that I tuned single octaves just slightly wide. In any typical circumstance, none of the strings would be expected to be close enough to accept a fine tuning in just one pass using a muting strip. What I would normally have done is to tune slightly wide octaves all the way to the top, quickly without too much precision, the flatter the string is, in fact, the sharper I would tune it. I would then pull in all of the unisons, again, without a great amount of precision. I would then give the entire section a series of test blows.

The expected result would be that now, each string would be within a range that would accept a fine tuning, most already in tune, a few slightly sharp, a few slightly flat but no general trend either way. If it is the highest level of performance tuning, I automatically consider that the second pass will still not be quite enough for rock solid stability. I make the corrections, tune the unisons again and start the whole process again. I expect that upon the third pass, very little has to be done and therefore it usually takes very little time. I am able to catch the few strings here or there which resisted being settled absolutely and spend the time "fighting" with them at that point, not in the beginning.

That is what puts the glowing smile on the face of the artist as he performs. I have seen it often. I know what works for me and how to get a rock solid, broadcast quality sound that will hold up through a performance with little stress and sometimes in amazingly little time. The last time that Kawai RX-3 was on stage for that young artist, the set up and sound check people were taking much longer than they had anticipated. When I was finally called to the stage, I had a two pass tuning of the piano which was not bad and basically on pitch done in exactly 35 minutes. The crew was still milling around taking care of details. I left them plenty of time to do their final sound check. If I had dwelt on each tuning pin, twisting, turning, pounding, correcting and re-correcting one unison at a time with a single wedge, I would have taken at least twice as long and been very stressed out. As it was, I finished my job, wished them a good show and took the nearly hour drive back home.

Considering the string's tension, I think it may be advisable to feel and "charge the pin", when possible, with vertical bending (towards the string) and torsional bending (anticlock). By doing so we can counterbalance the pulling of the string and heavy playing stresses. In fact, these pin Vs string opposing forces can determine a more stable tuning.

Moreover, string and pin will result notted, (or glued, fused?) and so more energy can be transferred to the pin-block.

So, impacting or charging? One question: what will eventually make the pin's hole oval?

impact have the supposed advantage of moving the whole pin with minimal torsion.

Using EDT s, one have always a tendency not to raise above pitch as much as in aural tuning, hence the development of special methods and techniques to just add a very little o so the display is happy.

Stability wise, while one can get a good stability with those methods, they are not "rock stable" because the grip of the pin is not so low in the blow. If it was only for stability, I would not use that slow method, that allow the piano and wire to take its "definitive place", but the gain in tone is really important (be it a vertical with bushings or a Steinway grand).

So I present myself as the slowest tuner in Paris, and thats it !

Despite the huge amount of pressure I use sometime on the lever, I am frankly not under the impression that I stress the block a lot with pressure (with wedging moves certainly it can make more trouble if they are not localized) What will make the block unusable is ovalisation on the bottom part; and I certainly did not notice that on pianos I tune regularly.

I guess that aiming to tune with a tuning pin which is "charged " to the max is a very good thing, I doubt that the charging unload, you may find it there on the next tuning. The idea that the pin is twisted some amount in the block is on page four of the book "many strokes" presented as a basis for the pin setting (which by evidence it is.

Piano a wire settling time is unfortunately not compressible, to me, if anyone have an idea on how to shorten that time I will accept it happily !

As I said my real internal feeling with the way I tune usually, is that "everything is evened so even if the wire move it will stay just enough, the unisons having a good acoustical stability will help the note to stay tuned " (and I think like that while having stetted the pin correctly, simply I was unsure of the real bottom position of the pin I only know I have some torsion, no idea on how deep it goes.

Trying the tone and the sensations obtained with the slow torsion and moving of the pin as showed in the videos I made, will convince you of the difference :the tone is clearerthe tuning pin get stiffer,no more high motion of the tone with up or low pressure on the handle, only a very light move in the tone.

Some tuning pins slips on reverse (moving up) eventually , if the pitch have been raised frankly too much.

If when "charging" the pin you feel it split even a little, that mean that the bottom is not yet in its definitive place. If you set the pin in that position the tone is not as good, but , more important there is a "trap" in that tuning pin, which is twisted in the top part and unlocked in the bottom, you can feel it clearly when you untwist that pin and lower the note to do the whole process again :at first the pin set again an again and seem to lock, then it unlock abruptly and then the note is way lower than you have believed, showing how much that bottom move of the pin is important for tone and pitch.

IF the block is not very strong, i noticed that doing the process 2 or3 times (SLOWLY) finally the bottom of the pin in the end find a better grip, it get better and better, may be moving the pin one direction then the other disturb the wood fiber and help to find better grip.

But the grip and knot that we can install in the upper part of the pin may be related to the bottom position if you want a definitive setting.

Of course the concepts that You state, Alfredo, are completely valid, the piano react and need time to find its new stability. THe pin react (probably) the wire, of course, the soundboard, the plate etc.. Being aware of that is yet something.

When we play the note so often waiting for the settling to take place, it is strange but we can hear the wire taking its place.

I guess I will do a video showing how I tune extra fast and how I tune with extra strong settling.

BTW I managed to tune with a more closed tone than yours, giving all the energy to the attack and leaving the piano find its tone by itself for the rest, and I like it, it provide more tactile sensations to the pianist hence a larger dynamic palette. On a piano with not so rich tone due to old strings (I've done it yesterday with some at last 50 years old wire) that gives very pleasing results.

The open but strong tone of the attack is also to me the sign of some stability. It does not mean the unisons are not smiling but a hair less than in your tone. I recorded a few notes (vertical Pleyel, 1930)

Bets regards to all !

Isaac

Edited by Kamin (04/14/1005:18 AM)

_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills

You write:..."impact have the supposed advantage of moving the whole pin with minimal torsion."...

I think you are right, since the pin would have no time for torquing. But then, in this case, I'd have to charge a "cold" pin, without knowing what its bottom position is.

..."Using EDT s, one have always a tendency not to raise above pitch as much as in aural tuning, hence the development of special methods and techniques to just add a very little so the display is happy."...

The tendency I've noticed also in aural tuning is to get by with a fairly correct pitch, no matter how the pin is positioned. In my opinion, the correct pitch should result from the best pin position, i.e. from a correctly charged pin.

..."Stability wise, while one can get a good stability with those methods, they are not "rock stable" because the grip of the pin is not so low in the blow."...

I doubt about good stability with those methods, the pin is bound to bend and twist towards the string's relaxation.

..."If it was only for stability, I would not use that slow method, that allow the piano and wire to take its "definitive place", but the gain in tone is really important (be it a vertical with bushings or a Steinway grand)."...

Yes, stability may not be good for business, though I've found it foundamental for working on the tuning form.

..."So I present myself as the slowest tuner in Paris, and thats it!"...

To me, slow is better. Then we can master the most correct movement and execute it fast. All schools teach this, nothing new.

..."Piano and wire settling time is unfortunately not compressible, to me, if anyone have an idea on how to shorten that time I will accept it happily!"...

You are right (too often I can only agree with you). Playing the piano, single notes and chords, while we are tuning is the only way I know.

..."Trying the tone and the sensations obtained with the slow torsion and moving of the pin as showed in the videos I made, will convince you of the difference: the tone is clearer,the tuning pin get stiffer, no more high motion of the tone with up or low pressure on the handle, only a very light move in the tone."...

I missed the video, can I find it somewhere?

..."Some tuning pins slips on reverse (moving up) eventually , if the pitch have been raised frankly too much.

If when "charging" the pin you feel it split even a little, that mean that the bottom is not yet in its definitive place. If you set the pin in that position the tone is not as good, but , more important there is a "trap" in that tuning pin, which is twisted in the top part and unlocked in the bottom, you can feel it clearly when you untwist that pin and lower the note to do the whole process again : at first the pin set again an again and seem to lock, then it unlock abruptly and then the note is way lower than you have believed, showing how much that bottom move of the pin is important for tone and pitch."...

What you are sharing is as precious as true.(O)

..."But the grip and knot that we can install in the upper part of the pin may be related to the bottom position if you want a definitive setting.

Of course the concepts that You state, Alfredo, are completely valid, the piano react and need time to find its new stability. THe pin react (probably) the wire, of course, the soundboard, the plate etc.. Being aware of that is yet something.

When we play the note so often waiting for the settling to take place, it is strange but we can hear the wire taking its place."...

I agree.

..."BTW I managed to tune with a more closed tone than yours, giving all the energy to the attack and leaving the piano find its tone by itself for the rest, and I like it, it provide more tactile sensations to the pianist hence a larger dynamic palette. On a piano with not so rich tone due to old strings (I've done it yesterday with some at last 50 years old wire) that gives very pleasing results."...

I'm looking forward to hearing the tone you like the best, no doubt about superb results...Is it warmer now in Paris?

Registered: 06/04/11Posts: 21Loc: England The art of obtaining tuning stability is dependent on several things. I won’t go into the pros and cons of ETD vs aural tuning, because there seems to be a huge debate on this subject that really makes no difference to the aspect of stability. However, I must add that I write this not ever having any experience of ETDs, so can’t explain stability using any of the terms associated with them.Firstly, there are complexities of the skills required to “Set the pin”. The general rule is to always turn the pin, not bend it! You should aim to pull the string up a little past where you want it to be, making sure that you have turned the whole length of the pin, not merely the top section that we can see. Having achieved that, we now have to bring the pitch down and slightly below where we want to be to ensure that any twist in the steel tuning pin is taken out. Assuming you have turned the whole pin firstly to take the string sharp, and now taken the string slightly below, the natural twist in the wrestpin should want to take it sharp again ... and the gentlest pressure on your tuning lever should be enough to encourage the string to pitch exactly where you need it to be. It’s at this last stage of pin setting that a firm striking of the note will help to ensure that any “tension lag” is equalised. I must admit that if I were to tune with an ETD, I would find it extremely difficult to judge, because it’s a mechanical “feel” of what’s happening to the wrestpin and looking at a ETD display simply can’t give any idea about what is physically happening to the tuning pin. In my humble opinion, the ETD confuses the issue, by making the tuner look at its display too much ... The first part of tuning i.e. taking the string above, and then slightly below by moving the entire length of the pin is the most important part of obtaining tuning stability, and only when this has been done does the tuner then have to pay close attention to the display to get the best possible result.Secondly, it must be realised that every individual string altered has a knock on effect to the other strings ... So the more out of tune, or below pitch the instrument is, the greater the knock on effect is. It’s pointless worrying about a perfect tuning if you are making large tuning adjustments. Far better to get the overall tension on the soundboard by doing a rough tuning first without worrying that the tuning sounds awful , rather than concentrating on getting notes perfect, and then having them all wander out of tune again as the soundboard is subjected to increased down-force. This again is something that I can’t comment on with regard to ETDs – I believe that they have the ability to calculate “stretch” , and should be more than capable of indicating the amount required to achieve the finished result. However, it’s once again a question of “Setting” ... but this time it’s a question of “setting the soundboard”.Tuning stability is affected by many things, temperature and humidity change cause the biggest fluctuations in pitch, but the initial stability comes down to the tuner’s skill in setting both the wrestpin and soundboard. These skills are paramount in becoming a top class tuner and sadly it is simply not possible to learn these skills either aurally or by using an ETD. Practise and experience are the only ways to ever obtain the “feel” and result of a good professional, and stable tuning._________________________Concert Tuner & Technician for the past 45 years in the United Kingdomwww.jphillipspianoservices.freeindex.co.uk : E-mail jophillips06@aol.com

>> Tuning stability is affected by many things, temperature and humidity change cause the biggest fluctuations in pitch, but the initial stability comes down to the tuner’s skill in setting both the wrestpin and soundboard. These skills are paramount in becoming a top class tuner and sadly it is simply not possible to learn these skills either aurally or by using an ETD. Practise and experience are the only ways to ever obtain the “feel” and result of a good professional, and stable tuning. <<

Greetings, While I can agree with part of this, the question is "What kind of practice and experience?" I don't think an ETD has any place in the initial training of the the ear to temper intervals and tune unisons. By virtue of their design, they render a sensual world in intellectual terms. However, in the realm of teaching stability, I think the ETD's have a very strong contribution to make. Is stability not learning what the hand must feel in regards to what the string is doing, or not doing? The quality of data coming from any of the modern machines is extraordinary for those that have learned to use the tool at this level. The modern ETD will indicate a change of pitch before the ear can hear it. The sooner we know that the string is moving through the agraffe, the tighter our information becomes inre how the hand is doing. Stability can't be learned without either aural or machine input, can it? I am proud to have been taught by Bill Garlick, and to have had 18 years in the recording studios, tuning aurally. However, arthritis in the hand pushed me into getting the first programable machine (SAT). I put my tunings in there and made the switch. Though I had been rabidly aural for years, I have to say that it made me a better tuner, and a lot of that was giving me cleaner information about the string movement. (The thing still doesn't do a unison as well as the ear, though.) I submit that the combination of machine and ear will develop stability faster than either, alone. . Regards, Ed Foote

You write:..."While I can agree with part of this, the question is "What kind of practice and experience?" I don't think an ETD has any place in the initial training of the the ear to temper intervals and tune unisons."...

I cannot be that sure, perhaps a beginner likes that kind of feedback.

..."By virtue of their design, they render a sensual world in intellectual terms."...

Sight, though, is a sense too.

..."However, in the realm of teaching stability, I think the ETD's have a very strong contribution to make. Is stability not learning what the hand must feel in regards to what the string is doing, or not doing?"...

I'd say...not only. There is the hand, the string (three lengths), the bridge, the soundboard, the whole piano's structure and the pin.

..."The quality of data coming from any of the modern machines is extraordinary for those that have learned to use the tool at this level."...

Which level?

..."The modern ETD will indicate a change of pitch before the ear can hear it."...

Hmmmmm...I'm not that sure.

..."The sooner we know that the string is moving through the agraffe, the tighter our information becomes inre how the hand is doing."...

What I need to "hear" is the pin, in relation to the string.

..."Stability can't be learned without either aural or machine input, can it?"...

Well, if there is a problem is when aural and/or machine input are not enough.

..."I am proud to have been taught by Bill Garlick, and to have had 18 years in the recording studios, tuning aurally."...

Would you tell me more about Bill Garlick? Is he from England.

..."However, arthritis in the hand pushed me into getting the first programable machine (SAT)."...

How did that help your hand?

..."I put my tunings in there and made the switch. Though I had been rabidly aural for years, I have to say that it made me a better tuner, and a lot of that was giving me cleaner information about the string movement. (The thing still doesn't do a unison as well as the ear, though.)"...

I understand you mean cleaner "eye" info. Has it trained your ear too?

..."I submit that the combination of machine and ear will develop stability faster than either, alone."...

This is what I like of John's post:

..."The general rule is to always turn the pin, not bend it! You should aim to pull the string up a little past where you want it to be, making sure that you have turned the whole length of the pin, not merely the top section that we can see. Having achieved that, we now have to bring the pitch down and slightly below where we want to be to ensure that any twist in the steel tuning pin is taken out. Assuming you have turned the whole pin firstly to take the string sharp, and now taken the string slightly below, the natural twist in the wrestpin should want to take it sharp again ... and the gentlest pressure on your tuning lever should be enough to encourage the string to pitch exactly where you need it to be. It’s at this last stage of pin setting that a firm striking of the note will help to ensure that any “tension lag” is equalised. I must admit that if I were to tune with an ETD, I would find it extremely difficult to judge, because it’s a mechanical “feel” of what’s happening to the wrestpin and looking at a ETD display simply can’t give any idea about what is physically happening to the tuning pin. In my humble opinion, the ETD confuses the issue, by making the tuner look at its display too much ... The first part of tuning i.e. taking the string above, and then slightly below by moving the entire length of the pin is the most important part of obtaining tuning stability, and only when this has been done does the tuner then have to pay close attention to the display to get the best possible result.Secondly, it must be realised that every individual string altered has a knock on effect to the other strings ... So the more out of tune, or below pitch the instrument is, the greater the knock on effect is. It’s pointless worrying about a perfect tuning if you are making large tuning adjustments. Far better to get the overall tension on the soundboard by doing a rough tuning first without worrying that the tuning sounds awful , rather than concentrating on getting notes perfect, and then having them all wander out of tune again as the soundboard is subjected to increased down-force. This again is something that I can’t comment on with regard to ETDs – I believe that they have the ability to calculate “stretch” , and should be more than capable of indicating the amount required to achieve the finished result. However, it’s once again a question of “Setting” ... but this time it’s a question of “setting the soundboard”.Tuning stability is affected by many things, temperature and humidity change cause the biggest fluctuations in pitch, but the initial stability comes down to the tuner’s skill in setting both the wrestpin and soundboard."...

>..."The quality of data coming from any of the modern machines is extraordinary for those that have learned to use the tool at this level."...A.C. asks: ><Which level?

The level of seeing pin flex indicating 1/2 cent changes on either side of a stable spot, or calculating overshoots for pitch corrections in increments I would challenge any aural tuner to match. The machines provide information, they don't make one go deaf. More information, better control of the results.

>>."The modern ETD will indicate a change of pitch before the ear can hear it."...

A.C. <<Hmmmmm...I'm not that sure.

Well,I am positive, having put my SAT up against a lot of ears over the years. Maybe acquaint yourself with one and see if you have a surprise in store. I don't think many of us can sense a .2 cent change in the fourth partial of a note, but that fine control is where a machine does shine.

I said, >"The sooner we know that the string is moving through the agraffe, the tighter our information becomes inre how the hand is doing."...

>>What I need to "hear" is the pin, in relation to the string.

Well, this is where we differ. I can't hear the pin. I can feel the pin while hearing the string, but my point is that you can't learn to leave a stable string without hearing it.

>>Would you tell me more about Bill Garlick? Is he from England.

He is. He was leading the North Bennett Street School in 1975, when I went there. He later was hired by Steinway and Sons to develop their training program for their techs. Bill is highly regarded in the field and I am grateful to have been a student.

..."However, arthritis in the hand pushed me into getting the first programable machine (SAT)."...

>>How did that help your hand?

After getting my aural tunings stored in the machine, I can use a small, rubber-tipped, wooden handle to play the keys. It is easier on the knuckles and finger joints than the interval playing and testing I had been doing for so many years aurally.

>Though I had been rabidly aural for years, I have to say that it made me a better tuner, and a lot of that was giving me cleaner information about the string movement. (The thing still doesn't do a unison as well as the ear, though.)"...

Most definitely, with more information coming in, tunings are more targeted to the pitch I want them. I spend less energy on rote tasks and can spend more time polishing unisons, which is where 90% of the listeners' impression comes from. Not to mention the ease of accessing a wide variety of temperaments. Regards,