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Clone WarsWill the Sith's "Grand Plan" be explained thoroughly, or even mentioned in the Clone Wars?

Jedi, not Sith. I already said that if it's a dark side skill he won't do it.

sluggo said:

If the person who is stronger in the force then anyone else (outside of Anakin, pre-Darth Vader armor) isn't strong enough to prevent death.......not really possible is it?

You've gone from "most powerful Jedi" to "stronger in the Force than anyone else". These are not necessarily the same thing. Supposedly it was said somewhere that Palpatine was the strongest Force-user in the saga. Also, you are defining "what is possible" by the limitations of a fixed group of characters at one point in time, but there is no guarantee that something is impossible just because the characters we know couldn't do it. Though the "most powerful Jedi" apparently can't do it with the light side, this does not necessarily mean that a sufficiently powerful Sith could not do it with the dark side, and recent EU seems to indicate that it is possible to increase one's own midichlorian count.

sluggo said:

You're assuming Palpatine knows how Qui-Gon did it.

You're assuming Palpatine knows that Qui-Gon did it. That is only speculation and certainly not a part of G-canon or T-canon.

Jedi, not Sith. I already said that if it's a dark side skill he won't do it.

You've gone from "most powerful Jedi" to "stronger in the Force than anyone else". These are not necessarily the same thing. Supposedly it was said somewhere that Palpatine was the strongest Force-user in the saga. Also, you are defining "what is possible" by the limitations of a fixed group of characters at one point in time. Just because the "most powerful Jedi" can't do it with the light side does not mean that a sufficiently powerful Sith could not do it with the dark side, and recent EU seems to indicate that it is possible to increase one's own midichlorian count.

You're assuming Palpatine knows that Qui-Gon did it. That is only speculation and certainly not a part of G-canon or T-canon.

In regards to Yoda you're making 2 arguments. One that hes not strong enough and two its a dark side ability. In regards to the first, if Yoda isn't strong enough, its probably not possible. In regards to the second, thats kind of the point. Its not a Dark Side ability either. Neither Jedi or Sith can live forever, but a Jedi can preseve his idenity in the force after death.

Where was it said that Palpatine is the strongest force user in the saga? You're making an assumption to prove a point. In TPM we are told that Anakin has more mid-clorians then any Jedi, and the example they use has having a lot is Yoda. We dunno if Palpatine is/would more or less powerful then Yoda. The EU is meaningless in this debate/discussion.

I'm assuming Palpatine knows about Qui-Gon because other dialog in the movies would indicate that is who hes talking about. Qui-Gon is the first Jedi or Sith to learn how to cheat death by retaining his idenity after death, and he teachs Yoda and Obi-wan how to do it which is why they disapear after they die and no other Jedi does (also explains Vaders reaction to Obi-wan disapearing after he kills him). If it was a known technique...well it would be known. It also explains that it is achived by "extreme compassion, a rejection of selfishness and personal attachment to the point that the physical self fades away, but the consciousness remains as one with the Force". If Qui-Gon is the first to do this, who else is Palpatine talking about? And given how it is done, a Sith cannot achive it even though it is their ultimate goal.

I also believe Lucas talks about this in the RotS commentry track, but I'll have to watch it again to be sure.

In regards to Yoda you're making 2 arguments. One that hes not strong enough and two its a dark side ability. In regards to the first, if Yoda isn't strong enough, its probably not possible.

Those are not two separate arguments, they're the same argument. Yoda says that he's not strong enough. That's not an argument, it's a citation from ROTJ. It is a fallacy to assume that something is not possible just because Yoda can't do it with the light side. Yoda is only one character and we are given no guarantee that there could never be a lightsider stronger than Yoda ( in fact, quite the opposite ), while Yoda not being able to do it does not mean it cannot be accomplished through the dark side.

sluggo said:

Its not a Dark Side ability either. Neither Jedi or Sith can live forever

That is just your assumption. It is never established anywhere in canon, either G-canon, T-canon, or C-canon. Furthermore, the implications of various C-canon sources seem to disprove it.

sluggo said:

Where was it said that Palpatine is the strongest force user in the saga?

I don't know, but specific citation of Palpatine is not really meant to "prove" anything. The general point is that the light side and dark side are not identical, so the limitations of a given Jedi do not automatically become limitations shared by the Sith.

sluggo said:

I'm assuming Palpatine knows about Qui-Gon because other dialog in the movies would indicate that is who hes talking about.

No, there is no dialogue in the films which indicates that in any way. The obvious implication in ROTS is that he is talking about Plagueis.

sluggo said:

Qui-Gon is the first Jedi or Sith to learn how to cheat death by retaining his idenity after death

That "cheat death" means Force ghosting is still only your assumption. It does not actually mean that.

sluggo said:

If it was a known technique...well it would be known.

That is an irrelevant strawman.

sluggo said:

If Qui-Gon is the first to do this, who else is Palpatine talking about?

Since Palpatine is not talking about Force ghosting, Qui-Gon being the "first" ( though he wasn't actually the first ) to Force ghost poses no contradiction whatsoever with what Palpatine is saying.

Those are not two separate arguments, they're the same argument. Yoda says that he's not strong enough. That's not an argument, it's a citation from ROTJ. It is a fallacy to assume that something is not possible just because Yoda can't do it with the light side. Yoda is only one character and we are given no guarantee that there could never be a lightsider stronger than Yoda ( in fact, quite the opposite ), while Yoda not being able to do it does not mean it cannot be accomplished through the dark side.

That is just your assumption. It is never established anywhere in canon, either G-canon, T-canon, or C-canon. Furthermore, the implications of various C-canon sources seem to disprove it.

No, there is no dialogue in the films which indicates that in any way. The obvious implication in ROTS is that he is talking about Plagueis.

That "cheat death" means Force ghosting is still only your assumption. It does not actually mean that.

That is an irrelevant strawman.

sluggo said:

If Qui-Gon is the first to do this, who else is Palpatine talking about?

Since Palpatine is not talking about Force ghosting, Qui-Gon being the "first" ( though he wasn't actually the first ) to Force ghost poses no contradiction whatsoever with what Palpatine is saying.

Yoda not being strong enough and not being willing because its a SIth ability are two different arguments. And we are told by Obi-wan that Yoda is the bench mark. "Not even master Yoda has a mediclorian count that high".

Of course its established in G-Level canon. The strongest Jedi we're given can't do it. The strongest Sith we're given can't do it. We're told only 1 has learned how to cheat death, and all evidence would indicate that one person still died.

There is no implication that he's talking about Plagueis, because Plagueis died. We've seen there is only one character who cheated death (at that point, cause Obi-wan and Yoda do it as well) and thats Qui-Gon. And Palpatine can't figure out how he did it because Sith not capable of it.

The RotS noval kinda says that it is the samething.

Its relevate because what Qui-Gon was the first to cheat death by retaining his idenity. If hes the first, it explains why Palpatine doesn't know how to do it and will have to figure it out with Anakin. If Plagueis knew how to cheat death and prevent people from dying, its a logical assumption that Palpatinw ouldn't have killed him without learning how to do that first.

EDIT: Wookiepedia cites on Plagueis's entry that he taught Palpatine everything he knew, yet Palpatine still didn't know how to cheat death. The source for this is Revenge of the Sith, which woul dmake it G-Level canon. So if Palpatine knows all that Plagueis knew, Plagueis didn' tknow how to use the force to cheat death.

IN order to "force ghost" you have to retain your idenity after you die. Gui-Gon was the first to do this. If you die but are able to retain your idenity, thats cheating death. You're seperating the two when you need to achive one to get the other.

Yoda not being strong enough and not being willing because its a SIth ability are two different arguments.

I'm not arguing that a dark side Yoda wouldn't be able to do it. I don't know what the result would be for dark side Yoda.

sluggo said:

Of course its established in G-Level canon. The strongest Jedi we're given can't do it. The strongest Sith we're given can't do it.

It is in no way "established". A finite group of characters in one particular era being apparently unable to do something does not necessarily make that thing impossible. Also, in various cases of a character being killed by another, we don't know that the killed character would never have been able to do it if they had avoided being killed. In other words, you can't say that something was proved to be impossible just because the ones who were in a position to attempt it kept getting killed.

sluggo said:

There is no implication that he's talking about Plagueis, because Plagueis died.

That argument was already debunked in this thread.

sluggo said:

We've seen there is only one character who cheated death (at that point, cause Obi-wan and Yoda do it as well) and thats Qui-Gon.

Cheating death is not a reference to Force ghosting. In certain EU from 2008-9 it was used as a synonym for essence transfer. In the context of ROTS alone it is implied to be a reference to the powers of Plagueis.

sluggo said:

The RotS noval kinda says that it is the samething.

The ROTS novel only says that immortality is a goal of the Sith. ( Plagueis spoilers )For example, Darth Plagueis was on the verge of learning how to stop aging. But the Jedi version of immortality is not that goal. Besides, in the corresponding place, the ROTS novel replaces the film's reference to "only one" with the phrase "my Master", making it a reference to Plagueis.

sluggo said:

If Plagueis knew how to cheat death and prevent people from dying, its a logical assumption that Palpatinw ouldn't have killed him without learning how to do that first.

It's been suggested in the Literature forum that Palpatine's deficit is one of experience and practice rather than knowledge. In any event, Palpatine may know how to prevent people from dying, since he may have used this ability on Anakin.

sluggo said:

Wookiepedia cites on Plagueis's entry that he taught Palpatine everything he knew, yet Palpatine still didn't know how to cheat death. The source for this is Revenge of the Sith, which woul dmake it G-Level canon. So if Palpatine knows all that Plagueis knew, Plagueis didn' tknow how to use the force to cheat death.

It's only G-level canon that Palpatine said Plagueis taught him everything he knew; what a character says is not necessarily true. Even if we assume this to be true, Palpatine could easily know the basics without being able to implement the power to the required degree. In the ROTS novel he says only his Master "truly" achieved it. Palpatine clearly gets the main idea just from what he says in the film.

It is in no way "established". A finite group of characters in one particular era being apparently unable to do something does not necessarily make that thing impossible. Also, in various cases of a character being killed by another, we don't know that the killed character would never have been able to do it if they had avoided being killed. In other words, you can't say that something was proved to be impossible just because the ones who were in a position to attempt it kept getting killed.

That argument was already debunked in this thread.

Cheating death is not a reference to Force ghosting. In certain EU from 2008-9 it was used as a synonym for essence transfer. In the context of ROTS alone it is implied to be a reference to the powers of Plagueis.

The ROTS novel only says that immortality is a goal of the Sith. ( Plagueis spoilers )For example, Darth Plagueis was on the verge of learning how to stop aging. But the Jedi version of immortality is not that goal. Besides, in the corresponding place, the ROTS novel replaces the film's reference to "only one" with the phrase "my Master", making it a reference to Plagueis.

It's been suggested in the Literature forum that Palpatine's deficit is one of experience and practice rather than knowledge. In any event, Palpatine may know how to prevent people from dying, since he may have used this ability on Anakin.

It's only G-level canon that Palpatine said Plagueis taught him everything he knew; what a character says is not necessarily true. Even if we assume this to be true, Palpatine could easily know the basics without being able to implement the power to the required degree. In the ROTS novel he says only his Master "truly" achieved it. Palpatine clearly gets the main idea just from what he says in the film.

No, that's dying but retaining your identity.

Once again, it is established Yoda is the benchmark for Jedi before Anakin comes along. If a Jedi can do it, Yoda can do it. Thats the point of Obi-wans line.

Plagueis died. He didn't cheat death himself. THere is no debunking there.

Again, "force ghosting" isn't a thing on its own, its the RESULT Of cheating death. You keep trying to seperate the two. And there is no reference to Plagueis, he says "Only one". If Lucas wanted it to be Plagueis he would have had Palpatine say Plagueis in that scene.

ANd the implication is the Sith goal is not obtainable, but the Jedi verison is, but not available to a Sith.

All he did with Anakin is stick a bunch of cybernetics on him. Thats not something hte Sith would have learned through the force.

Well if you're going to go to that level, who's to say even 1 person mastered the ability to cheat death?

In Revenge of the Sith it is revealed that the ability to return as a Force Spirit is a recently discovered and complex discipline unknown to most Jedi. Yoda informs Obi-Wan that the late Qui-Gon Jinn discovered "..the path to immortality" the secret of how to retain his identity after death and absorption into the Force, and that his spirit would instruct Obi-Wan in this discipline during his exile on Tatooine.

George Lucas has since indicated (on the Revenge of the Sith DVD commentary) that the appearance of Vader's former self, Anakin Skywalker, as a Force Spirit at the end of Episode VI is due to a combination of Anakin's own latent Force ability, his achievement of a moment of unconditional compassion at his death and redemption, and Yoda and Obi-Wan's spirits helping him extend his identity out of The Force.

I copied it from the "The Force" page of wikipedia.

So "only one" discovered how to cheat death. Qui-Gon discovered the secret to immortality, we don't know if Plagueis figured out how too or not, and the fact that he died doesn't really help the case. It appears he figured out how to create life rather then prolong it. Plagueis taught Palpatine everything he knew, but Palpatine doesn't know how to cheat/be immortal himself. The method Qui-Gon used would not be open to a Sith because it involves extreme self-scrafice. If it looks like a duck......

And one piece of "in universe" circumstancal evidence, Lucas has made Holocrons G/T canon. If Jedi and/or Sith could return as "force ghosts" there would be no need for holocrons. A Jedi couldn't need to lock their knowledge into one, they could just come back and teach it to whoever they wanted after they died. The existence of holocrons would hint/indicate that even for a Jedi or Sith, death is final. So if only 1 has figured out how to cheat death, that would mean only 1 has figured out how to become a "force ghost", which is why holocrons would exist.

Just because none of the Sith achieved immortality doesn't mean that they don't believe they can. As Filoni indicates in his recent Forcecast, the Sith are all about bodily survival. In such a case, existing as a Force ghost would be of no interest to them. Plagueis obviously wasn't immortal, but he knew how to keep others alive according to Palpatine. That was what Anakin was interested in. He asked Palpatine to save Padme's life, he wasn't asking how to let her die and preserve her as a spirit, I don't think having a spirit-wife was something that would have particularly been of interest to Anakin either. The pursuit of true immortality seems to be a futile effort on the Sith's part, but they don't know that.

I've not read the Plagueis book, so I don't know in what specific examples Plagueis had achieved success in saving people from death. The preview pages indicated that he was practicing on the recently deceased to sustain their midichlorians, but I don't know if that was the extent of his success, or if he actually rescued a mortally wounded person using nothing but the Force. Or was it that he could just prolong the life of a dying individual just a little longer, increasing the size of the window of opportunity to receive medical attention?

E.G. Sidious might have used the Force to prolong Anakin's life on Mustafar, but that didn't mean that Vader could survive without his mechanical suit. So it could have been with Sidious' discussion in regards to Padme. Maybe he knew the power to prolong the life of a mortally wounded individual with the Force, but didn't know how to actually sustain their life indefinitely (i.e. the wound would still ultimately kill them without further medical attention).

With this talk about the "one" that was able to cheat death, for all we know that will be established as being Darth Maul, since Filoni has teased that the "unnatural" abilities that the Dark Side leads to will have something to do with his survival. But we don't yet know the exact deatails of how he survives, so it could be that he completely sustained himself with the Force, or it could have been that he simply prolonged his life and was ultimately rescued by more conventional technology. Regardless, what we/you/I think we know on the subject could be altered by future episodes of TCW. I mean, Plagueis could crop up in an episode for all I know, leaving Sidious to think, "how the hell did do that (survive)?" The "One" could be Plagueis, could be Maul, could be some ancient Sith, etc. But I highly would doubt that it's Qui-Gon. Even if we assume that Obi-Wan, Ahsoka, and Anakin were all debriefed about Mortis, and Palpatine caught wind of the fact that Obi-Wan discusses seeing Qui-Gon as a spirit in his report, as Filoni's comments would suggest, you wouldn't expect existing as a Force ghost to be of any interest to Palpatine.

Just because none of the Sith achieved immortality doesn't mean that they don't believe they can. As Filoni indicates in his recent Forcecast, the Sith are all about bodily survival. In such a case, existing as a Force ghost would be of no interest to them. Plagueis obviously wasn't immortal, but he knew how to keep others alive according to Palpatine. That was what Anakin was interested in. He asked Palpatine to save Padme's life, he wasn't asking how to let her die and preserve her as a spirit, I don't think having a spirit-wife was something that would have particularly been of interest to Anakin either. The pursuit of true immortality seems to be a futile effort on the Sith's part, but they don't know that.

I've not read the Plagueis book, so I don't know in what specific examples Plagueis had achieved success in saving people from death. The preview pages indicated that he was practicing on the recently deceased to sustain their midichlorians, but I don't know if that was the extent of his success, or if he actually rescued a mortally wounded person using nothing but the Force. Or was it that he could just prolong the life of a dying individual just a little longer, increasing the size of the window of opportunity to receive medical attention?

E.G. Sidious might have used the Force to prolong Anakin's life on Mustafar, but that didn't mean that Vader could survive without his mechanical suit. So it could have been with Sidious' discussion in regards to Padme. Maybe he knew the power to prolong the life of a mortally wounded individual with the Force, but didn't know how to actually sustain their life indefinitely (i.e. the wound would still ultimately kill them without further medical attention).

With this talk about the "one" that was able to cheat death, for all we know that will be established as being Darth Maul, since Filoni has teased that the "unnatural" abilities that the Dark Side leads to will have something to do with his survival. But we don't yet know the exact deatails of how he survives, so it could be that he completely sustained himself with the Force, or it could have been that he simply prolonged his life and was ultimately rescued by more conventional technology.

I absolutly think they believe they can. Palpatine is aware of what Qui-gon did. Hes aware that Jedi was able to become immortal, but he doesn't know how he did it. And the ironic/tragic thing for Anakin is, a Sith is not able to do it. And sure a Sith doesn't want to be a force ghost, but again they don't know/understand that that is how you cheat death.

Did Plagueis know how to keep other alive, or is Palpatine lying to him? Given that the instant Anakin joins the Sith Palpatine basically say "oh ya I was lying about that" should bring that whole statement into question.

Considering the idea of bringing Maul back wasn't aroung when the dialog was written, I think its pretty say to say Palpatine wasn't refering to Maul.

I absolutly think they believe they can. Palpatine is aware of what Qui-gon did. Hes aware that Jedi was able to become immortal, but he doesn't know how he did it. And the ironic/tragic thing for Anakin is, a Sith is not able to do it. And sure a Sith doesn't want to be a force ghost, but again they don't know/understand that that is how you cheat death.

Did Plagueis know how to keep other alive, or is Palpatine lying to him? Given that the instant Anakin joins the Sith Palpatine basically say "oh ya I was lying about that" should bring that whole statement into question.

Considering the idea of bringing Maul back wasn't aroung when the dialog was written, I think its pretty say to say Palpatine wasn't refering to Maul.

Boba Fett didn't figure into Lucas' plans when reference to "The Clone Wars" was first dropped in ANH, but that didn't stop him and Jango from being written into the story of AOTC. Similarly, the only thing we've heard about the clones in the films is that they are strictly loyal and will obey any order without question, which didn't stop them from being humanized in TCW. And Maul surviving wasn't in Lucas' mind when Palpatine's dialogue for ROTS was being written, but that doesn't stop Lucas and Filoni from using that dialogue to bring him back. In ROTS we have a vague reference to "One" which could be retconned (if you can even call it that) into whatever Lucas and Filoni want. It's hinted that Maul cheats death using the Force, both by Filoni and by the "Darth Plagueis" back cover. If only One can cheat death to Sidious' knowledge, and Maul has cheated death, and Sidious is aware of this, then Maul must be the one to which Sidious is referring.

Otherwise Maul doesn't survive using the Force, which means that we've been misled, or Maul cheats death and is the second to do so, but Sidious doesn't become aware of it, and so in his mind only one has still holds that achievement (unlikely).

Boba Fett didn't figure into Lucas' plans when reference to "The Clone Wars" was first dropped in ANH, but that didn't stop him and Jango from being written into the story of AOTC. Similarly, the only thing we've heard about the clones in the films is that they are strictly loyal and will obey any order without question, which didn't stop them from being humanized in TCW. And Maul surviving wasn't in Lucas' mind when Palpatine's dialogue for ROTS was being written, but that doesn't stop Lucas and Filoni from using that dialogue to bring him back. In ROTS we have a vague reference to "One" which could be retconned (if you can even call it that) into whatever Lucas and Filoni want. It's hinted that Maul cheats death using the Force, both by Filoni and by the "Darth Plagueis" back cover. If only One can cheat death to Sidious' knowledge, and Maul has cheated death, and Sidious is aware of this, then Maul must be the one to which Sidious is referring.

Otherwise Maul doesn't survive using the Force, which means that we've been misled, or Maul cheats death and is the second to do so, but Sidious doesn't become aware of it, and so in his mind only one has still holds that achievement (unlikely).

Thats true, but the dialog we are talkinga bout were written before Maul surived, so its logically/reasonable to say that Palpatine was not talking about Maul. Thats not what Lucas had in mind when he wrote the dialog. There is no reference to Boba Fett and the clone wars in the OT at all, so its easy to just insert him. Its not the same situation.

In universe, we dunno excatly what Maul does yet. He could prolong his life but he knows he's dying, he could use cybernetics like Vader etc.... Right now, I would argue what Maul does would fall under that "unnartural" label, were as we are told Qui-Gon achives immortality.

But why would Sidious know that Qui-Gon has achieved immortality, and also why would this interest him? The Force Ghost (as evidenced by Obi-Wan) is like a coach, when Luke went to confront Vader, Obi-Wan said he could not interfere. The Sith are obsessed with power and afraid to lose it, I think it's safe to say that Palpatine has no interest in dying and becoming a spirit-coach that can't directly interfere in events.

Only certain people seem to be able to commune with Force Ghosts. Luke could see and hear Obi-Wan, as could Yoda. But Leia didn't seem like she could. And Yoda was the only Jedi that could commune with Qui-Gon until Obi-Wan received his "training." Force ghosts seem to be able to reveal themselves to whom they choose, when they choose to do so. I don't think Palpatine is intercepting any spiritual communications between Yoda and Qui-Gon. Obi-Wan was a Council Member, and he didn't even know about Yoda talking to Qui-Gon until Yoda told him at the very end of ROTS, which would suggest that Yoda hadn't told the council, and was keeping it a secret. How would Sidious know?

But why would Sidious know that Qui-Gon has achieved immortality, and also why would this interest him? The Force Ghost (as evidenced by Obi-Wan) is like a coach, when Luke went to confront Vader, Obi-Wan said he could not interfere. The Sith are obsessed with power and afraid to lose it, I think it's safe to say that Palpatine has no interest in dying and becoming a spirit-coach that can't directly interfere in events.

Only certain people seem to be able to commune with Force Ghosts. Luke could see and hear Obi-Wan, as could Yoda. But Leia didn't seem like she could. And Yoda was the only Jedi that could commune with Qui-Gon until Obi-Wan received his "training." Force ghosts seem to be able to reveal themselves to whom they choose, when they choose to do so. I don't think Palpatine is intercepting any spiritual communications between Yoda and Qui-Gon. Obi-Wan was a Council Member, and he didn't even know about Yoda talking to Qui-Gon until Yoda told him at the very end of ROTS, which would suggest that Yoda hadn't told the council, and was keeping it a secret. How would Sidious know?

Palpatine is an incredably strong force user, he was able to feel that there was an individual existing in the force. As far as I know and from what I've seen ont he subject, Yoda knew someone/something was there but didn't know it was Qui-Gon until Revenge of the Sith.

Sure Palpatien didn't have an interest in becoming a Force Ghost (or maybe he would if itw ould make him immortal) but its the 1 example he had at the moment, and if you know how that person did it, you can (hopefully) figure out how to just stay alive.

Once again, it is established Yoda is the benchmark for Jedi before Anakin comes along. If a Jedi can do it, Yoda can do it. Thats the point of Obi-wans line.

That's only your assumption. Nowhere is it established that if Yoda can't do something it must be impossible. Mentioning Anakin only serves to undermine that theory, because Anakin never reached his full potential and it is conceivable that he might have done things which Yoda could not.

sluggo said:

Plagueis died. He didn't cheat death himself. THere is no debunking there.

That issue was discussed by TaradosGon earlier in the thread. Achieving the power of cheating death - achieving a specific Force power - and being killed are not mutually exclusive. This type of "immortality" does not connote invulnerability.

sluggo said:

Again, "force ghosting" isn't a thing on its own, its the RESULT Of cheating death. You keep trying to seperate the two.

That's because they are separate. You keep insisting they are the same, but that assumption is not backed up anywhere.

sluggo said:

And there is no reference to Plagueis, he says "Only one". If Lucas wanted it to be Plagueis he would have had Palpatine say Plagueis in that scene.

In the equivalent place in the Lucas-edited ROTS novel, Palpatine says "my Master", not "only one".

sluggo said:

ANd the implication is the Sith goal is not obtainable, but the Jedi verison is, but not available to a Sith.

It is never established that the Sith goal is not obtainable, only that Jedi immortality is not obtainable by the Sith.

sluggo said:

All he did with Anakin is stick a bunch of cybernetics on him. Thats not something hte Sith would have learned through the force.

There is evidence that he did more than that. In the EU it was said that he used his powers.

sluggo said:

Dying and retaining your identity is cheating death.

No, it isn't. The phrase "cheating death" is never used in the context of Force ghosting.

sluggo said:

Did Plagueis know how to keep other alive, or is Palpatine lying to him? Given that the instant Anakin joins the Sith Palpatine basically say "oh ya I was lying about that" should bring that whole statement into question.

Another misconception. Palpatine's story is more consistent than you realize. Throughout his narrative, he maintains that through him Anakin will achieve the power, while positioning himself as Anakin's gateway to the dark side.

sluggo said:

The existence of holocrons would hint/indicate that even for a Jedi or Sith, death is final. So if only 1 has figured out how to cheat death, that would mean only 1 has figured out how to become a "force ghost", which is why holocrons would exist.

Qui-Gon's becoming a Force ghost has nothing to do with the reference to "only one".

That's only your assumption. Nowhere is it established that if Yoda can't do something it must be impossible. Mentioning Anakin only serves to undermine that theory, because Anakin never reached his full potential and it is conceivable that he might have done things which Yoda could not.

That issue was discussed by TaradosGon earlier in the thread. Achieving the power of cheating death - achieving a specific Force power - and being killed are not mutually exclusive. This type of "immortality" does not connote invulnerability.

That's because they are separate. You keep insisting they are the same, but that assumption is not backed up anywhere.

In the equivalent place in the Lucas-edited ROTS novel, Palpatine says "my Master", not "only one".

It is never established that the Sith goal is not obtainable, only that Jedi immortality is not obtainable by the Sith.

There is evidence that he did more than that. In the EU it was said that he used his powers.

No, it isn't. The phrase "cheating death" is never used in the context of Force ghosting.

You're missing the point on Yoda. They establish that Yoda is the powerful of the Jedi. If someone says "this guy is the best hockey player, hes even better then Wayne Gretzky was", it established that Gretzky was the best before that. If the powerful Jedi can't do something......what chance does a less powerful Jedi?

We dunno what Plagueis was trying to do. Being able to live forever, but then dying because someone killed you......well thats not really being immortal is it?

Its backed by Qui-Gon Jinn. We're told in RotS that Qui-Gon discovered the secret to immortality and he is able to "force ghost" because of it.

As far as I know, while the novels are G-Level canon, the moveis trump them. He said "only one".

Again, I believe Lucas made those comments. That Jedi are the ones who can achive immortality and the Sith can't, even though its their goal. And even Sith can achive it, we are told by Yoda that Qui-Gon did achive, and by Palpatine that only one person did achive it. 1+1=........

EU means nothing. Even if Palpatine used the force to prevent Anakin from dying, he couldn't do it forever, which is why he stuck him in the cybernetic suit. Palpatine didn't have that answer,why is why he got stuck with the cyborg that he didn't really want and tried to replace twice.

We know from Qui-Gon that being a force ghost is liked to him being immortal. And I know I would consider becoming immortal cheating death..... Sometimes you can and have to connect the dots yourself, there isn't always a line explaining everything.

You're missing the point on Yoda. They establish that Yoda is the powerful of the Jedi. If someone says "this guy is the best hockey player, hes even better then Wayne Gretzky was", it established that Gretzky was the best before that. If the powerful Jedi can't do something......what chance does a less powerful Jedi?

You're missing the point that it would be possible for a Jedi stronger than Yoda to exist, and ignoring the significance of Anakin in this context.

sluggo said:

We dunno what Plagueis was trying to do. Being able to live forever, but then dying because someone killed you......well thats not really being immortal is it?

Once again, achievement of a Force power which may connote a form of de facto "immortality" does not necessarily mean invulnerability. The specific form of "Sith immortality" being alleged is explicitly said to be the achievement of a Force power. One can achieve or learn a Force ability and then be killed, because achievement of this power does not grant god status. It is just a power.

sluggo said:

We're told in RotS that Qui-Gon discovered the secret to immortality and he is able to "force ghost" because of it.

And in that scene, there is no use of the phrase "cheating death", because Jedi immortality and the Sith goal are still two different things.

sluggo said:

As far as I know, while the novels are G-Level canon, the moveis trump them. He said "only one".

Novels in general are C-canon, not G-canon. However, this is not the average novel. According to the author it was line-edited by Lucas, and we also know that the author met with Lucas.

sluggo said:

EU means nothing.

Not all EU is created equal. James Luceno's work benefits from a certain amount of Lucas input. The same idea is implied in the ROTS novel.

sluggo said:

And I know I would consider becoming immortal cheating death.....

That doesn't make it an accurate assumption. The phrase "cheating death" never appears in the context of Force ghosting.

Palpatine and Anakin are having a disagreement in which Anakin maintains that the Jedi are selfless, while Palpatine is urging that everyone is selfish, including the Jedi. When Anakin is unconvinced, Palpatine tells him the "Tragedy of Darth Plagueis the Wise" in which there is a Sith Lord who could save the people he cared about from dying. So far as I know, this isn't true. Plagueis was practicing on the recently deceased, and not because he cared about them, but because he was practicing/studying the manipulation of midichlorians. Then Palpatine makes it sound like the only reason Anakin doesn't know this story, is because the Jedi are censoring it, which isn't true, since the Jedi would have no knowledge of Plagueis ever having existed.

In the story he kind of paints the image that Plagueis is selfless. But then when Anakin asks about his fate, it turns out the greedy apprentice learned everything he could from the master and then killed him - the "selfless" individual (Plagueis) is murdered by the selfish individual (Sidious) that exploited him and then killed him when he no longer had any use. The lesson there was that selflessness leads to ruin. Also, the suggestion that the Jedi are greedy and keeping aspects of the Force a secret from Anakin, both which aren't true.

But then what does Palpatine do? He feins concern and sympathy for Anakin, which is a lie. Anakin is told that Palpatine will teach him how to save PAdme, seemingly out of the goodness of his heart (the Sith are NOT selfless, this is all an act to get Anakin to join the Sith).

Then when Anakin asks Palpatine to help him, Palpatine tells him that he doesn't know how, but that they can figure it out if they work together and sends him on a mission to attack the Jedi Temple and give in to the Dark Side. And just as in the stereotypical "Deal with the Devil" arrangement, Anakin ultimately doesn't get what he was promised, and gives up his "soul" when he becomes Darth Vader and gives into the Dark Side, destroying the person that he was. Promises of saving Padme were just a means to getting him to this point.

He could have been lying in the sense that he never knew such a power, and Plagueis himself couldn't do it. But he couldn't admit that, he had to urge Anakin on down the "dark path." Or he could have been lying in the sense that cheating death has been achieved by more than one Sith, but he couldn't really admit that either, because then he wouldn't have an excuse to stall on fulfilling his promise to help Anakin if it was common knowledge. Palpatine himself might have known everything needed to save Padme, but he has nothing to gain by saving one of his political opponents. Even the fact that Padme was facing "certain death" was a lie, since "always in motion is the future" and had Anakin not turned to the Dark Side, she could possibly have survived.

Most of the details surrounding the power to cheat death that "One" has achieved are lies. As to who the "One" is... that "One" has even achieved it could have been a lie. Maybe none have, maybe several have. But there's no indication that he's talking about Qui-Gon. In the OT, Vader nor Palpatine could sense that Obi-Wan was still around in ghost form after ANH, and they didn't know of Yoda. Palpatine is not some all-knowing being.

In the OT, Vader and Palpatine were not "working together" to "discover the secret," Vader was off acting as an enforcer/military commander. That power only cropped up in reference to turning Anakin in ROTS, and has not been explored at all in any of the other movies, nor TCW itself. Palpatine is making plans with the Death Star, and in "Children of the Force" he talks about having Force sensitive spies. Sidious' priorities seem to lay first and foremost with galactic domination, while Plaguei's laid with immortality. And that story about Plagueis was a means to an end in turning Anakin. There's really no evidence that Sidious has been obsessively trying to achieve immortality or studying midichlorians. For all

Once again, achievement of a Force power which may connote a form of de facto "immortality" does not necessarily mean invulnerability. The specific form of "Sith immortality" being alleged is explicitly said to be the achievement of a Force power. One can achieve or learn a Force ability and then be killed, because achievement of this power does not grant god status. It is just a power.

And in that scene, there is no use of the phrase "cheating death", because Jedi immortality and the Sith goal are still two different things.

Novels in general are C-canon, not G-canon. However, this is not the average novel. According to the author it was line-edited by Lucas, and we also know that the author met with Lucas.

That doesn't make it an accurate assumption. The phrase "cheating death" never appears in the context of Force ghosting.

The defination of immortal is not dying. Qui-Gon was killed by Maul and still is immortal. Plagueis.....not so much.

I know cheat death is not said in the movie but being immortal IS cheating death.

The novalizations of hte films are G-level canon. But the movies still trump them.

The two are not connected by a line of dialog. BUT we know Qui-Gon is immortal (cheated death), we know hes able to "force ghost" because of this. Connect the dots.

Cheating death is not immortality. ROTS did not coin the phrase "cheating death." It has been used many times in the real world and never in reference to immortality (which obviously doesn't exist). Plagueis seemingly had a Force power that allowed him to cheat death. Qui-Gon did not cheat death, since he did die. He became one with the Force and was able to retain his consciousness.

Palpatine and Anakin are having a disagreement in which Anakin maintains that the Jedi are selfless, while Palpatine is urging that everyone is selfish, including the Jedi. When Anakin is unconvinced, Palpatine tells him the "Tragedy of Darth Plagueis the Wise" in which there is a Sith Lord who could save the people he cared about from dying. So far as I know, this isn't true. Plagueis was practicing on the recently deceased, and not because he cared about them, but because he was practicing/studying the manipulation of midichlorians. Then Palpatine makes it sound like the only reason Anakin doesn't know this story, is because the Jedi are censoring it, which isn't true, since the Jedi would have no knowledge of Plagueis ever having existed.

In the story he kind of paints the image that Plagueis is selfless. But then when Anakin asks about his fate, it turns out the greedy apprentice learned everything he could from the master and then killed him - the "selfless" individual (Plagueis) is murdered by the selfish individual (Sidious) that exploited him and then killed him when he no longer had any use. The lesson there was that selflessness leads to ruin. Also, the suggestion that the Jedi are greedy and keeping aspects of the Force a secret from Anakin, both which aren't true.

But then what does Palpatine do? He feins concern and sympathy for Anakin, which is a lie. Anakin is told that Palpatine will teach him how to save PAdme, seemingly out of the goodness of his heart (the Sith are NOT selfless, this is all an act to get Anakin to join the Sith).

Then when Anakin asks Palpatine to help him, Palpatine tells him that he doesn't know how, but that they can figure it out if they work together and sends him on a mission to attack the Jedi Temple and give in to the Dark Side. And just as in the stereotypical "Deal with the Devil" arrangement, Anakin ultimately doesn't get what he was promised, and gives up his "soul" when he becomes Darth Vader and gives into the Dark Side, destroying the person that he was. Promises of saving Padme were just a means to getting him to this point.

He could have been lying in the sense that he never knew such a power, and Plagueis himself couldn't do it. But he couldn't admit that, he had to urge Anakin on down the "dark path." Or he could have been lying in the sense that cheating death has been achieved by more than one Sith, but he couldn't really admit that either, because then he wouldn't have an excuse to stall on fulfilling his promise to help Anakin if it was common knowledge. Palpatine himself might have known everything needed to save Padme, but he has nothing to gain by saving one of his political opponents. Even the fact that Padme was facing "certain death" was a lie, since "always in motion is the future" and had Anakin not turned to the Dark Side, she could possibly have survived.

Most of the details surrounding the power to cheat death that "One" has achieved are lies. As to who the "One" is... that "One" has even achieved it could have been a lie. Maybe none have, maybe several have. But there's no indication that he's talking about Qui-Gon. In the OT, Vader nor Palpatine could sense that Obi-Wan was still around in ghost form after ANH, and they didn't know of Yoda. Palpatine is not some all-knowing being.

In the OT, Vader and Palpatine were not "working together" to "discover the secret," Vader was off acting as an enforcer/military commander. That power only cropped up in reference to turning Anakin in ROTS, and has not been explored at all in any of the other movies, nor TCW itself. Palpatine is making plans with the Death Star, and in "Children of the Force" he talks about having Force sensitive spies. Sidious' priorities seem to lay first and foremost with galactic domination, while Plaguei's laid with immortality. And that story about Plagueis was a means to an end in turning Anakin. There's really no evidence that Sidious has been obsessively trying to achieve immortality or

The novalizations of hte films are G-level canon. But the movies still trump them.

When there is a conflict. But the reference to "only one" and the novel reference are only in conflict if they are assumed to be. It seems notable that the novel reference survived Lucas' line-edit.

sluggo said:

The two are not connected by a line of dialog. BUT we know Qui-Gon is immortal (cheated death)

Cheating death does not refer to Force ghosting. For example, a few years ago in the EU it was linked with essence transfer. That is a power from Dark Empire which is associated with the dark side. In the wake of Darth Plagueis I don't think it means that anymore. But in either case we're talking about a dark side ability. Becoming Casper the Friendly Ghost doesn't count as "cheating death" because the physical body is no more. Cheating death as the Sith conceive of it involves maintaining a corporeal existence.

TaradosGon said:

There's really no evidence that Sidious has been obsessively trying to achieve immortality or studying midichlorians.

Not in the OT, other than in the sense that immortality might arguably be attractive to a Sith personality in general. In the EU several sources indicate his interest in the idea of near-eternal rule, but at this point there isn't enough page count devoted to it to allow us to call it an obsession.

TaradosGon said:

Most of the details surrounding the power to cheat death that "One" has achieved are lies. As to who the "One" is... that "One" has even achieved it could have been a lie. Maybe none have, maybe several have.

Most, if not all, can be taken as the truth - especially if one follows what we might call the "Luceno POV".

As to who the "one" is, in a canon-inclusive sense "Sith immortality" is a crowded field. There is no way to narrow the Sith who have "cheated death" in some way ( though obviously not permanently ) down to just one, unless the reference is taken as specific to something other than essence transfer or anything else said to have been done by the ancient Sith such as Vitiate. Thus the more recent accomplishments of Plagueis seem to fit the bill.

The novalizations of hte films are G-level canon. But the movies still trump them.

When there is a conflict. But the reference to "only one" and the novel reference are only in conflict if they are assumed to be. It seems notable that the novel reference survived Lucas' line-edit.

sluggo said:

The two are not connected by a line of dialog. BUT we know Qui-Gon is immortal (cheated death)

Cheating death does not refer to Force ghosting. For example, a few years ago in the EU it was linked with essence transfer. That is a power from Dark Empire which is associated with the dark side. In the wake of Darth Plagueis I don't think it means that anymore. But in either case we're talking about a dark side ability. Becoming Casper the Friendly Ghost doesn't count as "cheating death" because the physical body is no more. Cheating death as the Sith conceive of it involves maintaining corporeal existence.

I doubt Lucas went through the novel line by line taking things out and changing things. Simply put, he doesn't care THAT Much. Hes said in the past he doesn't read that stuff, it doesn't affect him etc... Lucas Film has said, the films trump everything. Palpatine said "only one" not my master.

EU is meaningless. I dunno why you keep bringing this up. And again, you have to connect the dots. Qui-Gon discovers how to be immortal, which by defination is cheating death. On wikipedai cheating death is defined as - The phrase cheating death is commonly used to describe the manner in which a person avoids a possibly fatal event or who prolongs their life in spite of considerable odds - Qui-Gon discovered how to be immortal, I'd say that counts as prolonging his life in spite of considerable odds. Sure its not a physical life, its his spirit and his conessness, but Yoda said, he is immortal. So Qui-Gon cheated death. By doing this he is able to becomea force ghost. So while cheating death is not the proccess of becoming a force ghost, the two are linked. When you cheat death (As Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Yoda and Anakin do), you gain that ability. In the Star Wars universe, that his how to become immortal.

Palpatine tells us only 1 person achives it, but not who. What is the reason to keep this information from Anakin? If Palpatine doens't know how to do it, its doubtful Anakin will find a trove of Plagueis workt hat Palpatine didn't know about and figure it out without him. Palpatine said 'only one" not "only Plagueis" or "only my master" because he didn't know who did it, only that someone did.ANd they can't learn or figure out how to do it because they are Sith, and the concepts that go into achiving it are forign to them. Its what they want, but they can never get it.

There is no evidence that Plagueis knew how to cheat death, in G or T level canon, at least not yet (see below). Palpatine says that he learned how get the mediclorians to create life, he knew how to save peoples lives, but not cheat death. THe only person we are shown/told who achived cheating death/becoming immortal is Qui-Gon. We know Yoda knew something was going on before Qui-Gon spoke to him, its not a wild assumptino that Palpatine felt the same thing and thats who he was talking about.

Now, (there MIGHT be spoliers head, you've been warned - Idunno how to do that black out thing)

as far as I know Palpatine doesn't kill Plagueis until after he becomes Supreme Chancellor (I havn't read the Plagueis book yet, but thats what it says on Wookiepedia).

I think its possible/likely that Plagueis is the one who saves Darth Maul either before Palpatine kills him, or after Palpatine attacks him but before he dies. If this is the info we get, then it could very well be retconned that Palpatine was refering to Plagueis and Maul when hes speaking to Anakin, but as of right now........

I doubt Lucas went through the novel line by line taking things out and changing things.

Doubt no longer. In another forum on this site, the author has talked about the Lucas edit and specific things that Lucas removed from his manuscript.

sluggo said:

EU is meaningless. I dunno why you keep bringing this up.

Not all EU is developed independently of Lucas input. Some sources, such as Labyrinth of Evil or Darth Plagueis, benefit from the author's questions being answered by Lucas or cooperation with a Lucas intermediary. The ROTS novel was at least partially edited by Lucas. The prologue of Shatterpoint was written by Lucas.

sluggo said:

Qui-Gon discovers how to be immortal, which by defination is cheating death.

There are various forms of so-called immortality. Jedi "immortality" is not the same thing as Sith immortality.

sluggo said:

So while cheating death is not the proccess of becoming a force ghost, the two are linked.

Only by a misguided use of semantics which isn't supported in the film dialogue. They are abilities linked to opposite sides of the Force.

sluggo said:

Palpatine tells us only 1 person achives it, but not who. What is the reason to keep this information from Anakin?

The obvious implication to Anakin is that the "one" is Plagueis. Thus, there is no appearance of keeping the information from him.

sluggo said:

If Palpatine doens't know how to do it, its doubtful Anakin will find a trove of Plagueis workt hat Palpatine didn't know about and figure it out without him.

I don't think Palpatine expects Anakin to find some otherwise lost Plagueis trove. Anakin's Force connection is the apparent key.

sluggo said:

he learned how get the mediclorians to create life, he knew how to save peoples lives, but not cheat death.

Plagueis' ability to manipulate midichlorians is the basis not only for the creation of life but also for the ability to keep people from dying. If Plagueis can save others from death, why can't he use the same ability on himself?

We're just going over the same points over and over again. Bottom line is - there is one person who achived immortality and cheated death. And it wasn't Plagueis. So either Palpatine is flat out lying to Anakin or he does know about Qui-Gon and wants to discover how he was able to achive what he did. There is no connection in G or T level canon to link Plagueis to Palpatines lines about "only one person" achived immortality/figured out how to cheat death.