Excellent final. I watched all of the aftermatch camaraderie and crowd interaction and dressing room singing as well. I have to say that, despite myself, I am developing a whole new level of respect for Sarries.

They may lack the organic DNA of a Leinster, Munster or Clermont, but they have a hugely impressive team bond that the best traditional rugby teams have and that arguably was the difference on Saturday. I notice in all of their games how they interact on the field. The body langauge is so positive, suppoortive. The type of fist bumping and back slapping that you associate with basketball, volleyball or doubles tennis teams.

I wonder is there anything to be learned by us from them in this regard? I know our academy helps enormously and is the cornerstone of the squad bond, but Sarries are on another level to my eyes.

That said their dominance must have a big crack in it through the age profile of their backs who are older than their pack is young: 33, 25, 33, 30, 33, 30, 29

backrower8 wrote:Excellent final. I watched all of the aftermatch camaraderie and crowd interaction and dressing room singing as well. I have to say that, despite myself, I am developing a whole new level of respect for Sarries.

They may lack the organic DNA of a Leinster, Munster or Clermont, but they have a hugely impressive team bond that the best traditional rugby teams have and that arguably was the difference on Saturday. I notice in all of their games how they interact on the field. The body langauge is so positive, suppoortive. The type of fist bumping and back slapping that you associate with basketball, volleyball or doubles tennis teams.

I wonder is there anything to be learned by us from them in this regard? I know our academy helps enormously and is the cornerstone of the squad bond, but Sarries are on another level to my eyes.

That said their dominance must have a big crack in it through the age profile of their backs who are older than their pack is young: 33, 25, 33, 30, 33, 30, 29

I was thinking about all of that when one of their players reacted to the whistle blowing and winning the European cup by concentrating on having a fight with an opposition player.

Their "nobody likes us but we love ourselves" ethos stretches into an unhealthy solipsism. It's the kind of team ethos that can lead to huge lapses in ethical judgment.

Datta: what have we given?My friend, blood shaking my heartThe awful daring of a moment's surrenderWhich an age of prudence can never retract What the thunder said to Brian Lenihan

simonokeeffe wrote:top 7 from Pro12 go through from next season without any guaranteed national representationlooks like playoffs scrapped too and instead Challenge Cup winners (or losers) get the last place

I'm glad about the winners of the Challenge Cup - think it provides a good incentive.

I'm mixed on the first bit - I get the rationale of not having weak teams. But the original concept of the European Cup was as a competition involving representatives of all tier 1 European countries - rather than reps of the leagues. In the same way as the football equivalent has entries from all leagues. It loses something by just becoming reps from three leagues - why not just merge the three leagues then.

But it was probably inevitable

I like your right leg. A lovely leg for the role.
I've got nothing against your right leg.
The trouble is ... neither have you

simonokeeffe wrote:top 7 from Pro12 go through from next season without any guaranteed national representationlooks like playoffs scrapped too and instead Challenge Cup winners (or losers) get the last place

I'm glad about the winners of the Challenge Cup - think it provides a good incentive.

I'm mixed on the first bit - I get the rationale of not having weak teams. But the original concept of the European Cup was as a competition involving representatives of all tier 1 European countries - rather than reps of the leagues. In the same way as the football equivalent has entries from all leagues. It loses something by just becoming reps from three leagues - why not just merge the three leagues then.

But it was probably inevitable

I'd agree with both points. However, possibly there's a positive in there for the Italian teams as at least now they'll have a lot more incentive to up their game and try to finish higher in the league, rather than just above the other Italian team.

simonokeeffe wrote:top 7 from Pro12 go through from next season without any guaranteed national representationlooks like playoffs scrapped too and instead Challenge Cup winners (or losers) get the last place

Agree with this. I don't see any point in having an Italian side in the Champions Cup until they can get there on merit. Otherwise they're just whipping boys of whatever group they're in. At least in the Challenge Cup they might win a game. Zebre scored 90 points and conceded 331 this year in 6 games! Average loss of 40 points.

Think this will be good for the Italian Teams - getting smashed by 40 points in European Cup Pool Matches proves nothing. If they can up their game finishing 7th is not impossible and a real target other than just beating the other Italian side in the comp.

Anything other than a meritocracy stinks in any walk of life..............

simonokeeffe wrote:top 7 from Pro12 go through from next season without any guaranteed national representationlooks like playoffs scrapped too and instead Challenge Cup winners (or losers) get the last place

I'm glad about the winners of the Challenge Cup - think it provides a good incentive.

I'm mixed on the first bit - I get the rationale of not having weak teams. But the original concept of the European Cup was as a competition involving representatives of all tier 1 European countries - rather than reps of the leagues. In the same way as the football equivalent has entries from all leagues. It loses something by just becoming reps from three leagues - why not just merge the three leagues then.

Ok the Schillaci's have not done enough to consolidate their presence in either the league or the Anglo-Gallic investment vehicle. But this is shutting the door too definitively. There should be a play off mechanism akin to the champions league. Even if that included the championship or D2 champs

simonokeeffe wrote:top 7 from Pro12 go through from next season without any guaranteed national representationlooks like playoffs scrapped too and instead Challenge Cup winners (or losers) get the last place

I'm glad about the winners of the Challenge Cup - think it provides a good incentive.

I'm mixed on the first bit - I get the rationale of not having weak teams. But the original concept of the European Cup was as a competition involving representatives of all tier 1 European countries - rather than reps of the leagues. In the same way as the football equivalent has entries from all leagues. It loses something by just becoming reps from three leagues - why not just merge the three leagues then.

But it was probably inevitable

Agree with this.

Anyone know what happens if both CC finalists have already qualified?

My guess is it goes to the league of the winner

At least now we dont have to worry about the Americans being guaranteed a place

When he spreads his legs like that youd need dynamite or the Highland Light Infantry to shift him.

Peg Leg wrote:Ok the Schillaci's have not done enough to consolidate their presence in either the league or the Anglo-Gallic investment vehicle. But this is shutting the door too definitively. There should be a play off mechanism akin to the champions league. Even if that included the championship or D2 champs

Does that not illustrate why it's a good thing though? You've no confidence in either Italian team being able to manage 7th place in the foreseeable future, that's pretty damning.

I wonder where this idea came from. I'd like to think the Italians themselves have had a rethink about the best way to develop their players/teams or at the very least that they see opportunities for improvement having been told this was going to happen. I very much doubt that either part of that is true but it'd be nice if they were.

Peg Leg wrote:Ok the Schillaci's have not done enough to consolidate their presence in either the league or the Anglo-Gallic investment vehicle. But this is shutting the door too definitively. There should be a play off mechanism akin to the champions league. Even if that included the championship or D2 champs

Does that not illustrate why it's a good thing though? You've no confidence in either Italian team being able to manage 7th place in the foreseeable future, that's pretty damning.

Your post below (that quote, but immediately above this one) touches on the sentiment I was attempting to demonstrate. If they knew this was coming 2-3yrs out, fine. But the "fuck-it lets change the rules because money" aspect doesn't inspire much confidence.

This might be just the kick up the backside both Italians need. Rumour in Italy is that FIR are taking over control of Zebre and considering basing them in Milan or Rome or both to optimise attendances.

IMO, playing in Challenge Cup will give more valuable experience for development than being hockeyed in Champions Cup. Equally, knowing that a top 7 finish is the primary route to Champions Cup will ensure that Welsh, Scots and Irish teams sharpen their focus in all Pro12 games.

Finally, having the best seven Pro12 teams in Champions Cup will produce a bit more pressure on Eng and Fr teams that there are no 'gimmes' which depend only on the draw.

Peg Leg wrote:Ok the Schillaci's have not done enough to consolidate their presence in either the league or the Anglo-Gallic investment vehicle. But this is shutting the door too definitively. There should be a play off mechanism akin to the champions league. Even if that included the championship or D2 champs

Does that not illustrate why it's a good thing though? You've no confidence in either Italian team being able to manage 7th place in the foreseeable future, that's pretty damning.

Your post below (that quote, but immediately above this one) touches on the sentiment I was attempting to demonstrate. If they knew this was coming 2-3yrs out, fine. But the "fuck-it lets change the rules because money" aspect doesn't inspire much confidence.