Wait wait before we get all in a huff ask people to leave. I Really like the humanistic and liberterarian views of GiC and Nektarios. The old days consisted of a former Phanar Agent with a die hard Hellenic Dogmatist approach and the Hopeful "Silouan" Mount Athos-Panaghia lover who's Caveman-like mob mentality lost battles to EkhristosAnesti, Stavro and to the piously informed. We showed no amount of humility to discuss with Christian charity in its original intent by Robert, Anastasios, Phil and MorEphrem. Like all of us, these people were heady believers at one time. We use an old lense of classical Christians systems to start a friendly discussion . Then this former board turned rotten to the core when it came to discussing things like the Papacy, monophysites, Muslims, Jews, ecumenism and possibly even leaning towards Theosophy.

But after 4 years I keep coming here precisely of as an off-beaten path discussing obscure reference to the Fathers and looking at the Prayer list. So it literally takes bad memories in church one Sunday to say how attrocious this board has gotten. I don't know if people like Asteriktos, cizinec, TomS or augustine have left but their tolerant tone during 2005-2006 left an indelible mark on my views as nominal Christian. I do believe people got self-righteous and much of the rhetoric became evident in a 3 year stint and then leaving.

The communication went missing after awhile and I might as well do the same. But in the meanwhile try to keep the discussion civil.

Hopefully no one is decrying Modern Science and all of its achievements as such. I think that things tend to turn sour when Modern Science is used to belittle and mock others who hold to an Orthodox Christian worldview. If one doesn't believe in Orthodox Christianity, that is of coarse, one' perogotive. But it is the Christian's perogotive and responsibility to address these negative slurs. Not because Christianity needs defending, but because there are impressionable people who could be easily swayed by persuasive arguments. And the slanderers and mockers themselves need both our prayers and to hear the Truth.

In Christ,

Gabriel

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"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America." ~Scots-Irish saying

Hopefully no one is decrying Modern Science and all of its achievements as such. I think that things tend to turn sour when Modern Science is used to belittle and mock others who hold to an Orthodox Christian worldview. If one doesn't believe in Orthodox Christianity, that is of coarse, one' perogotive. But it is the Christian's perogotive and responsibility to address these negative slurs. Not because Christianity needs defending, but because there are impressionable people who could be easily swayed by persuasive arguments. And the slanderers and mockers themselves need both our prayers and to hear the Truth.

I've read the New Testament many times over, a fairly decent chunk of patristic and monastic writings, been a practicing Christian for long enough to not really be considered a new convert and the main emphasis I've always seen has been on love, humility and not judging others. What GiC and I are protesting so often is the mentality of "Oh should I eat lobster or shrimp this Friday?", the mentality of some here to pontificate that I'm not really a Christian since I can't find any justification in Christianity for using the brute force of the state to impose my moral views on others (ironically these same people are often foaming at the mouth in a frenzy over an ecclesiatical body that has a grand total of ONE word different in their creed and their inquisition...but thank God us Orthodox aren't like them!), or that I'm baffled as to why things like the Macedonian name dispute are as certain and important as the dogmas of the faith to many people in my parish, or that people here who clearly don't have the slightest training in biology, but wish to pontificate that if we don't accept their ex cathedra statements on biology that we are not really Orthodox. So please, reply to this with something along the lines that you are fasting and praying for me (exactly as prescribed in the Gospels). But, whether you like it or not, I still choose to identify as an Orthodox Christian because I believe at Christianity's core is the most noble philosophy and way of life - loving one's neighbor as oneself and that the way to transform the world is through love, not some hypocritical and self righteous condemnation.

What GiC and I are protesting so often is the mentality of "Oh should I eat lobster or shrimp this Friday?", the mentality of some here to pontificate that I'm not really a Christian since I can't find any justification in Christianity for using the brute force of the state to impose my moral views on others (ironically these same people are often foaming at the mouth in a frenzy over an ecclesiatical body that has a grand total of ONE word different in their creed and their inquisition...but thank God us Orthodox aren't like them!), or that I'm baffled as to why things like the Macedonian name dispute are as certain and important as the dogmas of the faith to many people in my parish, or that people here who clearly don't have the slightest training in biology, but wish to pontificate that if we don't accept their ex cathedra statements on biology that we are not really Orthodox. .

Are we on the same board? These "debates" are usually never about things like "should I eat lobster or shrimp this Friday?", and I never get involved with things like that. And in general, when people talk about things like how to fast, how to pray, etc it's usually very charitable and loving, not judgemental. But it's when people say or imply things like, "prayer doesn't work", "miracles don't happen", "the fathers were ignorant sheepherders", "you are a fool and don't belong in the Church if you don't believe in evolution", "God is Science" that something must be said.

But, whether you like it or not, I still choose to identify as an Orthodox Christian because I believe at Christianity's core is the most noble philosophy and way of life - loving one's neighbor as oneself and that the way to transform the world is through love, not some hypocritical and self righteous condemnation.

I don't want anyone to not be Orthodox. I'm truly glad you and GIC still identify yourself as Orthodox.

Create one thing, a pencil, a leaf, a blade of grass, from nothing, and you will then have superceded the Almighty.

Give it time and it will happen...creatio ex nihilo is simply a matter of the manipulation of virtual particle pairs which can be created from nothing according to the principles of quantum mechanics. So what do physicists have to create from nothing to have superceded the almighty? A single particle? An atom? A molecule? An organic molecule? Ultimately, the creation of anything beyond a single particle is simply a matter of technological, rather than theoretical scientific, advancement...and that has been done numerous times.

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Everything that we use to build our technological towers of Babel was made by God. Were man alone in the primordial void, before all was, he would be absolutely impotent compared to his Creator.

But, of course, this hypothetical situation is not the case...we have been programmed by natural selection and, apparently, its programming has surpassed the abilities of the divine.

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I also ask you this: from whence but His Creator could man's reason possibly proceed? Or is reason itself a byproduct of chaos, in your mind?

From the neural connections that have been optimized by natural selection.

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You're right, for God cannot conceive of evil; yet it seems to be man's greatest ambition. His technological terrors make it ever easier to indulge himself in wicked perversions.

Yes, we can now destroy with our weapons this world which God has made in His wisdom. Is this beyond the dream of a loving Creator? Is this the glory of science? Hideous bombs which sear the flesh off of the innocents?! Unfeeling mechanical warfare with no regard for human life?! Disrespect for self to the point of denying one's own gender, and the creation of a 'science' to JUSTIFY this abomination!!!???!

THIS IS NO PROGRESS! THIS IS MADNESS!

The death and destruction that has proceeded from the inventions of humanity is nominal in comparison to the death and destruction that has proceeded from the devices of god, from natural disasters and disease. And unlike god, who has offered no recourse to the evils he has placed upon us, humanity, by understanding the universe, has created treatments and solutions for the many hardships with which we are faced.

Are we on the same board? These "debates" are usually never about things like "should I eat lobster or shrimp this Friday?", and I never get involved with things like that. And in general, when people talk about things like how to fast, how to pray, etc it's usually very charitable and loving, not judgemental.

Stick around long enough, you'll see those discussions. And no, they're generally not directly judgemental, just extremly pietistic. The judgement is merely implied.

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But it's when people say or imply things like, "prayer doesn't work", "miracles don't happen", "the fathers were ignorant sheepherders", "you are a fool and don't belong in the Church if you don't believe in evolution", "God is Science" that something must be said.

So say what you want, that's why we're here, to discuss these things. I certainly believe in the concept of a god and I believe this concept must include the laws and principles of science, what I object to is this view of god as a type of Zeus who sits on a mountain granting miracles and raining down destruction, sometimes at random, sometimes based on who sacrifices the most cows to him. I'm not going to join in the mad rush to slaughter and waste as many cows as possible to get favours...I don't think that the concept of god works this way.

So say what you want, that's why we're here, to discuss these things. I certainly believe in the concept of a god and I believe this concept must include the laws and principles of science, what I object to is this view of god as a type of Zeus who sits on a mountain granting miracles and raining down destruction, sometimes at random, sometimes based on who sacrifices the most cows to him. I'm not going to join in the mad rush to slaughter and waste as many cows as possible to get favours...I don't think that the concept of god works this way.

Of course we are here to discuss these things. But calling people fools, saying those that don't believe what you believe should be kicked out of the church, constantly baiting people, etc. shouldn't be part of it. And that is the main reason you keep coming back. First you enter the conversation and seem reasonable, then you insult and demean as long as you can, then you end with some wordy, high minded straw man argument in order to seem reasonable again. All to attack people's faith and suck as many into your faithlessness as you can.

If I'm wrong I truly am sorry. But your statements, strategies, beliefs and motivations seem pretty clear when looked at objectively. I would never want you to leave the church, I would hope you cling to christ and will join the saints in heaven. May you have a blessed lent, and may you make it to Church on Pascha, as you said you might!

Of course we are here to discuss these things. But calling people fools, saying those that don't believe what you believe should be kicked out of the church, constantly baiting people, etc. shouldn't be part of it. And that is the main reason you keep coming back. First you enter the conversation and seem reasonable, then you insult and demean as long as you can, then you end with some wordy, high minded straw man argument in order to seem reasonable again. All to attack people's faith and suck as many into your faithlessness as you can.

Pray, tell, where in this thread did I call anyone a fool? It is a harsh term, which should be used sparingly; only when there is no other viable linguistic alternative (or when you're drunk enough that you can't be bothered to think of one ). I searched the thread to make sure, the only places I found that term being used was in your baseless accusations against me.

Pray, tell, where in this thread did I call anyone a fool? It is a harsh term, which should be used sparingly; only when there is no other viable linguistic alternative (or when you're drunk enough that you can't be bothered to think of one ). I searched the thread to make sure, the only places I found that term being used was in your baseless accusations against me.

Uh, pray tell, nowhere. Where did I say "this thread." One need only read your history of posts to see there is nothing baseless about what I said. I do think ignorant is usually your word of choice over fool though, should have been more exact! Again, you lean on the straw man.

The purple demons are back. Ozgeorge, can you please lead in prayer that our Lord Jesus Christ may deliver us from the evil purple demons.

Seriously thought, I really hope we can calm down in this Great Lent. If I may suggest, perhaps many of the things GiC writes may seem outright offensive, and if I know GiC just by the way he writes, he writes in a manner that tends to, as prodromas mentioned earlier, push buttons.

I do recall however someone earlier, whether intentional or not, did pass indirect judgment. "I really do pray for you. And I hope it works." How should one respond to that? Sure, we accept prayers from and to everyone, but not to single out someone's flaws and hoping that you could be the one to save him through your intercessions. I believe right after that Nektarios, if one is able to read in between the lines, made a parody immediately for such judgmental language:

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O God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this transvestite.

In other words, the person who did say, "I really do pray for you" sounded like a Pharisee to people like GiC, whether you intentionally meant to or not. Now, I'm sorry to make this obvious for you, but maybe people don't understand how to read what they're reading, especially when understanding how they have written before in other subjects. And even if GiC did believe science is above God (which I don't think he does believe; I think he has such a great respect for science that he exaggerates this respect in comparison to Greek-like gods, not the Trinity), I still think it does not warrant us to sound so self-righteous wishing for his "enlightenment to the right path" or "salvation." Especially at this time, in this Lent, we should contemplate on our own faults. Engage in the argument of the person, but do not engage in the person himself. We don't even know GiC or Nektarios or Livefreeordie or me personally. All we are are a bunch of screennames. Therefore, if I don't know the person, I should not make indirect judgments on the forum to the person.

And before anyone replies and says "I didn't say..." put yourself in their shoes and think about how someone would say that to you. Does it sound respectful? Does it sound like when saying that, you will win them over? Be humble. Make yourself want his prayers before you exclaim to pray for them.

Forgive me, a sinner.

« Last Edit: April 05, 2008, 01:28:19 PM by minasoliman »

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Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

I said "I really do pray for you." Because I do. I said, "And I hope it works.", because just earlier GIC said prayer never has and never will work. Since this was addressed to him and I thought it was clear what I was addressing, I didn't see the judgement in it. I hope he prays for me, we are all sinners and I would hope in spite of all the talk here, we pray for each other. If this came across as judgemental, I truly apologize.

And you are right, to get into a discussion like this at Lent, even if I believe my intentions are good, can really only be a bad thing. I'll sign off this topic and free for all. Lent's tough enough as it is without having to worry about this!

I do recall however someone earlier, whether intentional or not, did pass indirect judgment. "I really do pray for you. And I hope it works." How should one respond to that? Sure, we accept prayers from and to everyone, but not to single out someone's flaws and hoping that you could be the one to save him through your intercessions. I believe right after that Nektarios, if one is able to read in between the lines, made a parody immediately for such judgmental language:

In other words, the person who did say, "I really do pray for you" sounded like a Pharisee to people like GiC, whether you intentionally meant to or not. Now, I'm sorry to make this obvious for you, but maybe people don't understand how to read what they're reading, especially when understanding how they have written before in other subjects. And even if GiC did believe science is above God (which I don't think he does believe; I think he has such a great respect for science that he exaggerates this respect in comparison to Greek-like gods, not the Trinity), I still think it does not warrant us to sound so self-righteous wishing for his "enlightenment to the right path" or "salvation." Especially at this time, in this Lent, we should contemplate on our own faults. Engage in the argument of the person, but do not engage in the person himself. We don't even know GiC or Nektarios or Livefreeordie or me personally. All we are are a bunch of screennames. Therefore, if I don't know the person, I should not make indirect judgments on the forum to the person.

And before anyone replies and says "I didn't say..." put yourself in their shoes and think about how someone would say that to you. Does it sound respectful? Does it sound like when saying that, you will win them over? Be humble. Make yourself want his prayers before you exclaim to pray for them.

Give it time and it will happen...creatio ex nihilo is simply a matter of the manipulation of virtual particle pairs which can be created from nothing according to the principles of quantum mechanics. So what do physicists have to create from nothing to have superceded the almighty? A single particle? An atom? A molecule? An organic molecule?

Themselves.

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But, of course, this hypothetical situation is not the case...we have been programmed by natural selection and, apparently, its programming has surpassed the abilities of the divine.

How do you know what God did and did not do? Which processes are of His wisdom? This natural selection which you worship is nothing but one of the works which God has made in His wisdom. The very laws which make possible this science you deify were instituted by the Almighty. This whole world which triumphs in its own wisdom and power was made by Him.

Yet, if He willed it, with merely a thought of His it would all vanish in the twinkling of an eye. Where, then, are your godlike powers? Your monstrous machines? Your textbooks upon textbooks of worldly wisdom? They are gone, useless, destroyed with the arrogant men who made them and returned to the dust from whence they came, before even the dust itself vanishes from all existence.

It is His Mercy, His Love, which allows such unrestrained arrogance as yours to persist even for a moment.

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From the neural connections that have been optimized by natural selection.

You can keep one step behind me, to be sure, and we could play this backwards guessing game for-ever. Yet, in the end, we would come to God, from whom proceed all things.

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The death and destruction that has proceeded from the inventions of humanity is nominal in comparison to the death and destruction that has proceeded from the devices of god, from natural disasters and disease.

These are not the works of God. These are the works which our sin has brought upon us, they are facts of the fallen world! Misfortunes from sin, and sin itself from pride and arrogance; indeed, you are no different from Adam...he thought as highly of himself, and it lead him to the bloodbath which has been human history!

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And unlike god, who has offered no recourse to the evils he has placed upon us, humanity, by understanding the universe, has created treatments and solutions for the many hardships with which we are faced.

God has offered Himself as recourse, and Christ came to heal not only the disease, but its very cause; yet (like the Israelites) we prefer our King (human devices) to the leadership of God, and in so doing we fall further from Him and further into our arrogance and sins.

I am actually taken back by some of what you are writing NihilNominis. You are repeating whats already acknowledge by orthodox christians especially during the Fast. However if you choose to point the conflicts that Publican is doing on his own then please see the dilemna the Pharisee is inciting as redundant rhetoric.

(which I don't think he does believe; I think he has such a great respect for science that he exaggerates this respect in comparison to Greek-like gods, not the Trinity)

I think you hit the nail on the head, people make God out to be this Zeus-like character...and I think that humanity has surpassed and has become superior to this character everyone wants to call 'god'. Not that I think this is what God really is, God is more than a vindictive old man that plays the part of a sophist in the sky. God is the sustaining force behind the universe, the unity and plurality of all things, the source and the conclusion...bringing God into these petty disputes and using the Divine as an excuse to condemn your neighbour only diminishes our understanding of the One.

The purple demons are back. Ozgeorge, can you please lead in prayer that our Lord Jesus Christ may deliver us from the evil purple demons.

Seriously thought, I really hope we can calm down in this Great Lent. If I may suggest, perhaps many of the things GiC writes may seem outright offensive, and if I know GiC just by the way he writes, he writes in a manner that tends to, as prodromas mentioned earlier, push buttons.

I do recall however someone earlier, whether intentional or not, did pass indirect judgment. "I really do pray for you. And I hope it works." How should one respond to that? Sure, we accept prayers from and to everyone, but not to single out someone's flaws and hoping that you could be the one to save him through your intercessions. I believe right after that Nektarios, if one is able to read in between the lines, made a parody immediately for such judgmental language:

In other words, the person who did say, "I really do pray for you" sounded like a Pharisee to people like GiC, whether you intentionally meant to or not. Now, I'm sorry to make this obvious for you, but maybe people don't understand how to read what they're reading, especially when understanding how they have written before in other subjects. And even if GiC did believe science is above God (which I don't think he does believe; I think he has such a great respect for science that he exaggerates this respect in comparison to Greek-like gods, not the Trinity), I still think it does not warrant us to sound so self-righteous wishing for his "enlightenment to the right path" or "salvation." Especially at this time, in this Lent, we should contemplate on our own faults. Engage in the argument of the person, but do not engage in the person himself. We don't even know GiC or Nektarios or Livefreeordie or me personally. All we are are a bunch of screennames. Therefore, if I don't know the person, I should not make indirect judgments on the forum to the person.

And before anyone replies and says "I didn't say..." put yourself in their shoes and think about how someone would say that to you. Does it sound respectful? Does it sound like when saying that, you will win them over? Be humble. Make yourself want his prayers before you exclaim to pray for them.

Forgive me, a sinner.

Thank you for this post, minasoliman. I have wanted to type something like it, but was having trouble getting my thoughts around it. As it happens, you said it so much better than I could.

Lord have mercy on all we sinners.

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I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

I am actually taken back by some of what you are writing NihilNominis. You are repeating whats already acknowledge by orthodox christians especially during the Fast. However if you choose to point the conflicts that Publican is doing on his own then please see the dilemna the Pharisee is inciting as redundant rhetoric.

I'm not quite sure what you mean, but -

Normally I am not so forceful, but when a man deifies humanity - nay, claims mankind to have superceded God Himself - is it not fitting to admonish him?

However, if this:

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God is the sustaining force behind the universe, the unity and plurality of all things, the source and the conclusion...bringing God into these petty disputes and using the Divine as an excuse to condemn your neighbour only diminishes our understanding of the One.

is what he truly believes - that God is the A and the O, the beginning and end, that without which nothing could exist - why does he speak as if God is lowly and man is on a high place?

Tell me GiC, because I have now journeyed from agitation to confusion. How can you say both what you have said above and this:

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So what do physicists have to create from nothing to have superceded the almighty?

Tell me GiC, because I have now journeyed from agitation to confusion. How can you say both what you have said above and this:

Because I was mocking the idea of God being some sophist judge who has nothing better to do than involve himself in your personal morality or sexuality. Trying to make God into this personal entity in the sky that you must dedicate your life to placating reduces the very concept of God to a laughable myth, the God of that myth, created by ancient man, is inferior to modern man.

You know, as I reflect and leave my tempermental emotional side (I beg forgiveness, GiC),I have come to realise that this discussion does nothing but reflect clearly the natural human desire for theosis.

Orthodoxy preaches theosis through prayer, sacrament and repentance.

GiC and his sort seek theosis through their technological wonders by which they attempt to become gods themselves, perhaps even believeing that such theosis is the will of the One True God.

Many others seek it in many different ways, but (however much in error they are) they all seek the same thing.

I think you hit the nail on the head, people make God out to be this Zeus-like character...and I think that humanity has surpassed and has become superior to this character everyone wants to call 'god'. Not that I think this is what God really is, God is more than a vindictive old man that plays the part of a sophist in the sky. God is the sustaining force behind the universe, the unity and plurality of all things, the source and the conclusion...bringing God into these petty disputes and using the Divine as an excuse to condemn your neighbour only diminishes our understanding of the One.

I actually think I may possibly agree with this. Possibly.

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"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America." ~Scots-Irish saying

I think you hit the nail on the head, people make God out to be this Zeus-like character...and I think that humanity has surpassed and has become superior to this character everyone wants to call 'god'. Not that I think this is what God really is, God is more than a vindictive old man that plays the part of a sophist in the sky. God is the sustaining force behind the universe, the unity and plurality of all things, the source and the conclusion...bringing God into these petty disputes and using the Divine as an excuse to condemn your neighbour only diminishes our understanding of the One.

I always find it interesting that most people's God has all the preferences and prejudices and even tolerances that they have, but I guess that is the way of people to create a deity in their own image. And I don't mean that to be judgemental, because it's a trap that we can all fall into. It's hardly a new trend and it's one that doesn't seem to be on the wane.

« Last Edit: April 06, 2008, 02:57:52 AM by Riddikulus »

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I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Because I was mocking the idea of God being some sophist judge who has nothing better to do than involve himself in your personal morality or sexuality. Trying to make God into this personal entity in the sky that you must dedicate your life to placating reduces the very concept of God to a laughable myth, the God of that myth, created by ancient man, is inferior to modern man.

You mean the God the Eastern Orthodox honor, the God who cares how we behave towards one another and how we honor what He has given us? Greeki, you swing from holding your nose away in disdain towards Orthodoxic concepts of God to staring up in awe with your jaw open:

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God is the sustaining force behind the universe, the unity and plurality of all things, the source and the conclusion....

Hon, you can't have it both ways within Orthodoxy, and I stay within the discussion of Orthodoxy here, not Protestantism or anything else.I do agree that mankind loves to play God's henchmen down here on Planet Earth, but that doesn't mean God doesn't try to meet us on a personal level. If God doesn't care enough about humans to guide our way, what need have we then of Jesus Christ? What need have we of Christianity? God is involved in our lives, but He also respects our Free Will. You always blame God for the trouble that humans wrought, like "Where is God while that man is busy killing that man?" I'd like to ask, where's the rest of mankind while it's happening? We're not babies in diapers, Greeki...we're capable of fixing our world...we just don't want to, and God knows this. We have the intelligence to use our technology for good....we just don't want to!It's like, from His study, Dad can watch His two grown children fight and bicker and wound each other, but He'll step in when He needs to, and He alone is wise enough to know when He needs to. I think the superstition here is not believing in a Personal God, but believing that He's going to solve all our problems FOR us. But just like your average parent doesn't unhook the phone when a child leaves the nest, God still cares very much for us, though in a much more intimate way because He's so much better than us.And I doubt you'd be as proud of man's achievements if he didn't have anything to compete against, like diseases and natural disasters. Without those, I doubt you'd have much wind for your sail, lol...

« Last Edit: April 06, 2008, 03:00:53 PM by Myrrh23 »

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*I am no longer posting on OC.net*

We all have a Black Dog and a White Dog inside of us. The One you feed the most eventually eats the Other.

All are tempted, but it is the courageous person who clings to God during the storm. For the Ego is a prison, but Christ is the Liberator

Hon, you can't have it both ways within Orthodoxy, and I stay within the discussion of Orthodoxy here, not Protestantism or anything else.

Yes I can, I simply embrace the Neo-Platonic influences on Christianity while condemning the Judaizers and their mythology of a personal deity. A few years back when I created this account I chose the name 'greekischristian' for a reason. If I am error in holding and teaching this, I await my anathema from my Metropolitan and if I will gladly take the title of heresiarch.

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I do agree that mankind loves to play God's henchmen down here on Planet Earth, but that doesn't mean God doesn't try to meet us on a personal level. If God doesn't care enough about humans to guide our way, what need have we then of Jesus Christ? What need have we of Christianity? God is involved in our lives, but He also respects our Free Will. You always blame God for the trouble that humans wrought, like "Where is God while that man is busy killing that man?" I'd like to ask, where's the rest of mankind while it's happening? We're not babies in diapers, Greeki...we're capable of fixing our world...we just don't want to, and God knows this. We have the intelligence to use our technology for good....we just don't want to!

I don't blame god, I can just see from the history of the human experience that he doesn't involve himself in our affaris...at any level.

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And I doubt you'd be as proud of man's achievements if he didn't have anything to compete against, like diseases and natural disasters. Without those, I doubt you'd have much wind for your sail, lol...

So god inflicts young children with genetic disease because he wants to help? The simple explination that he is indifferent and does not involve himself is far more logically consistent.

The simple explination that he is indifferent and does not involve himself is far more logically consistent.

Well, it would be "logically consistent", except for the fact that we worship a God Who became Incarnate and entered human history. Like it or not, God is "personally involved". You are simply confusing Dispassion with apathy and cynicism.

Two things about God: He is Existence and Love. He is "I AM" and He is Love as the Apostle teaches us.A Being Who is Love is not a "dissinterested witness".

« Last Edit: April 07, 2008, 10:27:17 PM by ozgeorge »

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If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

O God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this transvestite.

His disciples remembered that it was written, "Zeal for thy house will consume me." But he spoke of the temple of his body.If any one destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and that temple you are.

« Last Edit: April 07, 2008, 11:20:33 PM by ialmisry »

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

You would seem to prefer the future of Orwell to that of Huxley, 'Ignorance is Strength'.

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And the hubris goes on: and polluted all of the above.

And learned to clean it up.

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and the Challenger brought us back down to earth and taught us humility. At least some of us.

That was a quarter of a century ago...you learn from your mistakes and move on. That's the great thing about science (and the undoing of theology), failure can do as much to advance the field as successes.

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and invented biological weapons.

And, pray tell, how many have been killed by biological weapons vs. how many have been saved by modern medicine? Seems like a pretty damn good trade off.

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acquiring nuclear weapons?

Didn't really need computers for that, though they helped slightly. And, in the end, they saved more lives than they destroyed.

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Intelligent design.

Works well for the time being, but evolutionary computation is the wave of the computer...there are just some problems too complex for men or gods to solve, only evolution has that power.

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth