The Geneva-based International Commission of Jurists (ICJ) has said that any US-led attack on Iraq was illegal without UN Security Council backing. "In the absence of such Security Council authorisation, no country may use force against another country, except in self-defence against armed attack…This rule was enshrined in the United Nations Charter in 1946 for a good reason: to prevent states from using force as they felt so inclined," said ICJ Secretary-General Louise Doswald-Beck.

marinesupporter

04-11-03, 01:33 AM

I thought they attacked us on 9/11 am i wrong?

wrbones

04-11-03, 02:15 AM

The Geneva Convention, the Hague Convention, the Just War Theory all allow for self defense.

Al Queda training camps and many other proofs have been found that tie Saddam and Iraq directly to the WTC attacks.

In addition, the Gulf War 'I' was never over. It was a cease fire that Saddam continually violated, almost daily. The first time he fired on a U.N. sanctioned aircraft in 1991 over the no-fly zones, the cease fire was effectively over.

There are many other proofs of his guilt and the guilt of his regime.

The instance you cite is an example of diplomatic jostling to restore geo-politics to it's prior state of affairs.

marinesupporter

04-11-03, 02:19 AM

its not right though why are people so against bush for doing what he's doing i think he's doing a great job and to tell you the truth i never voted before a day in my life but now when it comes time i'm going to register to vote and put my vote in for him.

if saddam can get away with what he's done then why cant people accept that what bush is doing is right?

Barrio_rat

04-11-03, 02:22 AM

They (they being the government of Iraq) did not attack us on Sept 11, 2001. It was an attack brought on by the planning of al-Queda and the Taliban (government of Afghanastan). They are the ones who planned and funded the attacks on the World Trade Center Buildings, the Pentagon and on Flight 93.

However, Iraq (or the government of Iraq - namely Saddam Hussein) HAS links with al-Queda, HAS supported terrorist acts against Isreal, HAS fired weapons at coalition aircraft that were flying in the Southern and Northern No-Fly Zones (this was in blantant violation of UN Resolutions). Also, depending on who you follow and your own personal take on the matter, the latest UN Resolution (as well as many others in the past - 17 in all over 12 years) allows 'force' or 'sever consequences' to be used against Iraq (or the government of Iraq) if they failed to meet the requirements of the resolution(s).

We have the right to defend ourselves and (some believe) prevent harm from coming to this country and to its citizens. Also, Iraq firing missiles at our aircraft is an act of war. What some have done (in my opinion) is ignore the resolutions and the actions taken by the government of Iraq in the past and place all burdons of proof/fact/reasoning on the present situation - eg, that inspectors are in Iraq and have not been given enough time to do their job. Though, the job they were supposed to do was verify that Iraq had complied with the resolution(s), not look for any weapons that Iraq may have been hidning.

Bones has this stuff down cold. Mine is the laymans nutshell version.

Hope it helped.

marinesupporter

04-11-03, 02:30 AM

yeah but when they were in there thats when they found out that he might have WMD and wouldnt that give them probable cause to look for them? Being that if he did go to war with either us or anyone at that matter that he would use them?

This just isnt all adding up to me at this point. kind of confusing at that matter too.

I never got too much into politics or anything i just let sleeping dogs lie, up until this whole war started and my family and friends got shipped off now i'm trying to figure out everything all at once.

wrbones

04-11-03, 02:39 AM

Ok, kiddo, first thing ya oughta do is go to the forums, look for the search engine and first input Iraq. Happy reading. Hope ya got a comfy chair! ;)

Next, take a look at peace protesters and anti-war protesters.
next look for Al queda.

That oughta get ya good and started on an education on some of this!

Barrio_rat

04-11-03, 02:45 AM

Originally posted by marinesupporter
I never got too much into politics or anything i just let sleeping dogs lie, up until this whole war started and my family and friends got shipped off now i'm trying to figure out everything all at once.

Whether you like it or not, whether you paticipate or not, you - as a citizen - are part of the political system. Even inaction has its effect on the process. At least you are trying to become informed. That's a great deal more than what many do.

Barndog

04-11-03, 06:32 AM

In 'layman's nutshell Grunt Marine Corps' terminology....

Turn the TV off and stop listening - let alone - believing these idiots. Its called 'propoganda' - and it's designed to cause you to NOT believe anything at anytime from any source.

If someone owed you money, and you claimed it was never paid, should you be required to prove it was never paid, or should they be required to prove that they paid it?

A bank, mortgage company, utility company etc. produces their records which show payment was never received. Will you pay again, or will you provide a receipt proving that payment was made?

Iraq agreed, as a condition to end Desert Storm, that they would do various things. Is it up to the inspectors to prove that they didn't, or is it up to Iraq to prove to the inspectors that they did?

I don't understand the confusion.

marinesupporter

04-11-03, 10:11 AM

Thanks guys that kind of helped... lol :) i apretiate you taking your time out to answer my questions on this.

I may be from Michigan but the family that i come from never got involved in politics or news or anything...basicly they didnt care what went on in the world as long as it didnt include them. but if i think about it now, it did include them and they just didnt know it. but like i said i never got too involved either up until now and i'm rather glad i did it seems that theres so much bull s**t out there that affects me and i feel that i should know about it now cause it could affect my future in some way.

granted i know theres going to be alot to learn and some that i cant cause you cant teach an old dog new tricks and i'm 22 i'm a dinosaur lol :)

MAJMike

04-11-03, 11:42 AM

What you describe is what our country went through in the early 20th Century and again in the 1930s. It's called "isolationism." Just as you describe your family's disinterest, so was that of the US.

During those periods of "if it doesn't directly involve us, we aren't getting involved..." World War I broke out and in the 30's, Hitler came to power in Europe. We ignored the aggression and build up of the military in Japan until the bombed the h*ll out of us on December 7, 1941.

Since the earliest days of this country, patriots have sacrificed their lives so that you may freely voice your opinion. You are free to digest all the news and information you desire, free to form an opinion and free to voice that opinion. In Iraq, the penalty for owning a satellite dish (in order to get news from sources other than the state-run propaganda machine) was death.

Yes, what goes on in the world will definately effect you in MANY ways in the future. Whether it's the price of gasoline, the safety of your next airplane flight, the cost (in taxes) for increased homeland security. It may even determine whether you fight in this war or the next one.

Sergeants Bones and "Rat," and the Top make excellent points. They are informed Marines. An informed Marine knows what he is fighting for and that gives him the motivation to win.

I disagree with the Corporal. Read, look and listen - to a variety of sources, whether you think they are "left" or "right." Take the information and form your own opinion. It's one of the freedoms that you enjoy as an American.

I'm way more than 22, and I try to learn something new everyday.

Mike Ventura
MAJ USMCR
1968-75

marinesupporter

04-12-03, 02:10 PM

Thank you so much mike that shead alot of light on things for me, I think from now on that i'm going to get as much involved in politics and what not just so i know how things are going to affect me from here on out i will also raise my children in the same way if i ever have any someday lol.

I think that everyone in this world should open up their eyes and stop pretending that they are blind and pay attention to what happens around us. Other wise not having there say so in the matter will affect us as well.

And as for that attack on the WTC i think that we are in the right for doing what we are doing, Iraq's people will see a whole new light in the future and realize that literaly dying (committing suicide) for thier country was crazy, and what we do, being having the Military training that we have, yes they die for our country but they dont go out there with bombs strapped to their bodies saying "hail Jahad" or something like that. They fight for thier lives and everyone's in America. I hope they do the same for themselves and Iraq.

sorry if i didnt make sense in this last statement that i made lol.

gatormatt

04-12-03, 06:32 PM

If you were raised in that kind of society you would most likely think differently. Thats the norm over there. And in their opinion dying for their country, during a jihad, is a direct ticket to heaven.

Also because of the Muslim religion and what is written in the Koran, setting up a democratic republic as we know it will be incredibly difficult. In their scripture not all people are created equally. Woman and certain cultural, religious, and socioeconomic cirlces aren't recognized as having an equal voice. It will be interesting to see how we handle this. Hopefully all goes well.

Matt

mrbsox

04-15-03, 09:41 PM

marinesupporter:

Quit acting like an ATHELETICsupporter, taking care of whatever hangs around, and do something on your own.

1st: It's 'MAJOR'mike, not mike. 'nuf said there.

2nd: Find the thread "A lesson for a Son" (or close to that), and read what happens when you DO NOT ACT to what's going on around you. 'Closing the blinds' just may be 1 of the biggest problems with the world today.

3rd: Did they not have "Current Events" or something like that in school? Oh.... I forgot, you don't get envolved. 'If you do not learn from the past, you are destined to repeat it'; paraphrased quote

4th: Hang in here. We'll ride your a$$ about stuff, but it's to drive a lesson home, NOT to belittle you (well... maybe a little :D) lol

Read the forums, and then READ THE FORUMS, cause you'll miss something. Use the search tool, that's what it's for.

Terry

Barndog

04-16-03, 05:07 AM

Terry.....
Bro, you gotta understand - some areas of this state are isolated by CHOICE. Ya been watchin the news at all? Hasn't the constant blattering about the 'worlds largest population of Muslims outside of the Middle East is in the Detroit Area'.
Let me tell ya something about Detroit. Even though some areas may act all bad and tough and all that 'good stuff'.....but, most of them and.......
most of 'it' (the people, the city) is pretty damm scared. Like you wouldn't believe.

And, most of it is the same condition we know about. That never did anything to begin with, so didn't get involved.
They want Marines like us to do it for them.
So they don't have to get involved. Ever.

Oh, and they vote too. Maybe...

Jim

04-16-03, 05:42 AM

I agree with the major, you must become informed if you want to make intelligent decisions. In fact, I usually tell my students to watch any network news then watch 700 Club news and the truth will be somewhere in the middle. Both groups provide information but each presents it differently. I will not accuse either of outright lies, the material you select to present, or not present, will determine the image (message) the user receives. I also stress that the way to control people is through their minds. That is why freedom of the press is so important. BUT along with that freedom comes a responsibility. This war in Iraq is a beautiful example. Most of us have followed the coverage and have seen a good example of what is going on. Compare that to what folks in other nations saw. Several of the networks have attempted to show what other nations' media was presenting. In many cases it was just the opposite of what we had seen on US TV. It was the images they selected to leave out along with a biased narration that made the difference. Another good example is the Iraqi information minister. How often did he say things that we knew were totally incorrect? It was funny, in fact I think he rates an oscar or emmy or some type of award for keeping such a straight face while telling such whoppers. But what of those people who only received their news from him or agencies that supported his "facts"; without the other information you would be hard pressed to dispute him unless of course you were in an area that was occupied by coalition troops. This is really a long way to say something short and simple: READ, WATCH, EVALUATE! It is very hard to improvise, adapt and overcome if you don't have accurate information.

Sparrowhawk

04-16-03, 07:00 AM

Iraq never signed, the Geneva-based International Commission Accord.

The news keep blaming Bush for not finishing the job the last time, but it was the UN that prevented us from finishing the job the last time. It was better to do it alone this time, otherwise it would have probably cost us many more lives.

Heck with it, just grab a weapon, meet me in the corner and let's go join them and finish this stuff and get every one back as soon as possible.

bring your own MRE's

marinesupporter

04-16-03, 03:25 PM

I personaly am getting involved NOW. I was sheltered all of my life about what was happening around the world so i didnt know much, . nuff said about that. but i have lived and learned. second i am in the process of joining the Marine Corp. I feel that since i was never there for my country before i can do my best to be there for her now.

Well i will continue this latter......

03Infantry

04-16-03, 04:08 PM

Dude he is just trying to teach you some bearing. In bootcamp if you called a staff sgt. by his name he would make ya do pushups all day long. He is just trying to instill respect. Sorry ya had a hard life but you need to learn that they are Marines and we respect them by calling them sir or by their rank.

mrbsox

04-16-03, 07:38 PM

marinesupporter,

Sounds like your well on your way to learning from the past, and looking ahead.... CAREFULLY. I don't condemn someones past, IF, it was out of their control.

WE, myself included, are a product of our environment. Many people don't know another way (Iraq a prime example), until they see it for themselves. And then, someone had to make sure that the opportunity was presented, for them to see the difference.

I wish you nothing but happiness and long life. But TRUE happiness has to be seen by you, so that you know you want it. Sometimes it's a view point.

paraphrased quote from some where:

"Some people curse Roses because they have thorns. Others Praise thorns, because they have Roses"

Terry

marinesupporter

04-17-03, 08:25 PM

mrbsox,
First off i want to appologize if i may have seemed rude in any way i meant no disrespect at all. Second i felt comfortable here (also i dont know much about rankings and such) so i called him by his first name i appologize for that as well. and Third off i kind of felt that you didnt understand what i was talking about, and i know i dont have the peachiest way with words so when i try to explain things other people get confused and that makes me flustered so i go into my past to explain things more clearer, hence what was happening in that time of my life and why i never really got involved in anything. I had my life and my neices and nephues to look forward to keeping. so i never really had time to read the news or anything of the such. I was more concerned about what would happen if i didnt do what the guy was telling me to do. like would he hurt the kids? would he kill my sister? would he even go after my family? those were the types of things running through my mind at that point in time. Sorry i'm going to stop that now....i appologize again..... but like i said though i never ment any disrespect toward you or anyone on this site. I know i may have gotten out of control. Plus it didnt help that my neice and nephue wernt listening to me and fighting that was making me upset as well...lol. Some peoples kids!! lol j/k. But on another note i dont know how many times i'm going to appologize but i'm sorry again.

firstsgtmike

04-17-03, 09:31 PM

marinesupporter,

Slow it down, relax, take a couple of deep breaths. Don't rev your motor until the car's in gear and you are ready to zoom.

I sense that you are coming out of a dark cave and facing the sunlight for the first time. It can be an overwhelming experience unless you take it one step at a time.

I'm learning a lot from my three year old son. Many times he asks the same question over and over again. I thought he was putting me on, because I had had just told him the answer, for the fifth time in about ten minutes.

Then I looked through HIS eyes, and I could sense the gears turning.

"Daddy, what is that?" "That is a truck". "Daddy, what is That?" "That is another truck." "Daddy, what is THAT?" "That is ANOTHER truck (dammit)".

Then I learned. I could feel the questions he was asking himself and couldn't express. "That thing was different, going, coming, or crossing. One was big, one was small, one was red, the other two were different, two had something on them, one had nothing on it. One was painted funny, one had people in the back. But every time I ask daddy what it is, he says it's a truck. I don't understand.

I learned. Now I tell him,"That is a blue truck, that is a red truck, that is a big truck, etc. etc. etc.

I was ready for him when he switched gears on my. I didn't just tell him "That is a house." I learned from the truck confusion.

Take it slow. Don't get frustrated. As long as you are receiving input, eventually things will come together for you.

And ALWAYS look at both sides and both points of view before making up your mind.

When my son finished asking me "Daddy, what is that?" "That is a truck." He would turn to his six year old brother and ask; "A.J. what is that?" "That is a truck."

He's learning. We all are. And a three year old is teaching me how.

marinesupporter

04-17-03, 09:54 PM

thank you firstsgtmike (lol i got it right hehe) you explained it better than i could, ever!! lol

mrbsox

04-17-03, 10:46 PM

Ain't that like a firstsergeant....

Getting the troops tail out of a fire :D .

marinesupporter:

No harm. I liked the cave and sunlight scenario... And, I've learned some about you, which I hope can help me be a better person as time goes on. I have to remember that there are areas in MY Country, that I don't see in the news everyday.

My Thanks to you for the dialog, and my Prayers to you for a long and happy life. It sounds like you have a pair to keep you busy.