Something came across the wire this morning that was very short, but very interesting:

Quote: Oct 9 (Reuters) - India plans to ask Germany's Lufthansa AG to help Air India join Star Alliance, aviation minister Ajit Singh said on Tuesday, as it renews its push to become a member of the airlines network after failing to do so last year.

Both Air India and market leader Jet Airways can become members of Star Alliance at the same time, he added.

Is it just me, or does that sound wildly anit-competitive to have both carriers in Star. Obviously the Chinese have multiple carriers in the same alliance, but competition is limited by route structure so there isn't a terribly large amount of overlap. In the US, it definitely seems that we are headed towards three large legacies in each of the alliances.

I think this takes care of any reservations *A had - now the GoI is ready to let both AI and 9W join together. Given the dynamics and changes in the region (around EY/ QR/ EK), I think it would be really foolish of *A/LH to let go of this opportunity to let both 9W and AI in.

What is in it for LH? Seriously. For initially sponsoring AI they have had costs but no benefit. AI is not the airline

Quoting AA94 (Thread starter):Both Air India and market leader Jet Airways can become members of Star Alliance at the same time, he added.

I doubt that. The GoI was very specific at one airline per alliance. *A should have 9W join first if they offer both. But after all the hassle AI made *A go through... why offer again?

Quoting aloges (Reply 3):What if LH doesn't oblige, will they be forced to cut services to India?

If the GoI wants to take on the country funding most of Europe... sure...

But that appears what the GoI wants to do:"Ministry officials say that bilateral conditions specify that only the official airline of a country with which such an agreement has been signed should be flying into India. Since Swiss is not the national airline of Switzerland, permissions could be withdrawn."http://www.firstpost.com/business/go...ai-star-alliance-issue-484750.html

Does India really want their bilateral rights with Europe scrutinized at this economic juncture? They are threatening a trade war. Do the people of India really want that?

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 6):With OW surrounding India and *A needs to take as much as they can of the Indian market...

9W would be sufficient. AI will always be stuck in GoI red-tape. Best for *A to avoid that.

I know of not one regular traveler to India who likes AI. I know several who use 9W.

AI had their window to join the alliance. They should not be given another 3 years to try again. It is time to move on. If *A takes in AI, they will have the GoI interfering with their operation forever.

Apparently not on the wishlist. It seems like AI is such a beneficial player to any alliance that they can freely choose which alliance they want to join, as all cry out for such an important carrier

Quote:Since Swiss is not the national airline of Switzerland, permissions could be withdrawn."

I must have missed out on something. Which country is Swiss the national airline of then?

I feel inclined to rage all over the place when I hear of companies making business with such shady governments. Stating facts is one thing to convince somebody of his own interests, but making up random noise to force somebody into a position that they don't need to be in is a shameless move.

LH is in a really tricky situation now. If they make a step towards AI they will have hard times with their alliance affiliates as most of them oppose the inquiry of this airline in *A. But if LH backs off they might just face a critical situation with Indian traffic, which is an extremely large chunk of the long-haul they send through FRA.
For LHs sake I hope that European authorities and the German Ministry of Transportation has their back on this delicate matter.
For AIs sake I hope that Indian officials get their grip on how a company is run effectively and without a glimpse of corruptive activity.

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 6):I'm inclined to agree with Nimish... With OW surrounding India and *A needs to take as much as they can of the Indian market...

Me too. Maybe they are offering LH or * in general something they cant refuse on top.

Imagine * would be able to offer connections much better (regarding prices, connections ...) to be better than the Gulf carriers. Actually I don't believe this is possible at the moment but its worth a thought.

I ask again, what is the positive in this for India? Not the avoided pain, but the positive for AI in *A?

If AI has reformed that much, they should present their case to Skyteam.

Quoting Semaex (Reply 10):LH is in a really tricky situation now. If they make a step towards AI they will have hard times with their alliance affiliates as most of them oppose the inquiry of this airline in *A. But if LH backs off they might just face a critical situation with Indian traffic, which is an extremely large chunk of the long-haul they send through FRA.

Does India really want a trade war? If LH bows to the GoI, they will have just learned a tactic to keep extracting more.

Quoting warden145 (Reply 11):"Those are some nice routes into India you have there. Shame if something were to happen to them..."

And what legal means will the GoI use? Will the return to an earlier bilateral impacting Indian Pharma and Chemical industries? India is threatening a trade war; do they really want to do that?

How far back shall the bilaterals be impacted? Shall they push to impact the call centers and IT industries? If they have legal grounds... push forward. But unilateral changes will be met with other unilateral changes which neither side wants.

Quoting SQ22 (Reply 12):Maybe they are offering LH or * in general something they cant refuse on top.

If that is the case, LH must say no or they will be dancing to the GoI for decades.

If the government really wanted them in Star and I was LH I would say "Alright we'll sponsor you, as long as we can get our A380s flights to India." It will be interesting to see if the gov't plays with LH a little bit. They aren't going to want to lose their India routes.
Blue

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 15):If the government really wanted them in Star and I was LH I would say "Alright we'll sponsor you, as long as we can get our A380s flights to India." It will be interesting to see if the gov't plays with LH a little bit. They aren't going to want to lose their India routes.
Blue

I would add: And as long as no one else outside of * can make us of A380. But this would be total impossible, but from reading the 787 thread nothing seem to be impossible.

Having AI on board would be a disaster for *A. AI's unreliability and terrible customer service would piss off a lot of passengers who travel with *A. There is no hope for AI, until and unless the GOI divests itself from it and allows management to hire and fire its workers at will without having to be beholden to AI's inefficient and often corrupt public sector unions.

Quoting goacom (Reply 17):
Having AI on board would be a disaster for *A. AI's unreliability and terrible customer service would piss off a lot of passengers who travel with *A. There is no hope for AI, until and unless the GOI divests itself from it and allows management to hire and fire its workers at will without having to be beholden to AI's inefficient and often corrupt public sector unions.

AMEN!

Air India is a third-rate airline. Lufthansa shouldn't even waste its time with this embarrassing situation.

I don't know why I even bother responding... This thread epitomizes exactly the kind of unwarranted bashing AI receives every time it is brought up in conversation...

The "I flew AI once 5 years ago but know everything about it" posts:

Quoting goacom (Reply 17):Having AI on board would be a disaster for *A. AI's unreliability and terrible customer service would piss off a lot of passengers who travel with *A. There is no hope for AI, until and unless the GOI divests itself from it and allows management to hire and fire its workers at will without having to be beholden to AI's inefficient and often corrupt public sector unions.

Air India is a third-rate airline. Lufthansa shouldn't even waste its time with this embarrassing situation.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 7):
I know of not one regular traveler to India who likes AI. I know several who use 9W.

The "Government-owned carriers are evil" posts:

Quoting Semaex (Reply 10):
I feel inclined to rage all over the place when I hear of companies making business with such shady governments.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 13): And what legal means will the GoI use? Will the return to an earlier bilateral impacting Indian Pharma and Chemical industries? India is threatening a trade war; do they really want to do that?

How far back shall the bilaterals be impacted? Shall they push to impact the call centers and IT industries? If they have legal grounds... push forward. But unilateral changes will be met with other unilateral changes which neither side wants.

The "AI is completely at fault and LH Group/Star Alliance is totally innocent" posts:

Quoting aloges (Reply 3):Oh, for Pete's sake! What if LH doesn't oblige, will they be forced to cut services to India?

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 7):AI had their window to join the alliance. They should not be given another 3 years to try again. It is time to move on. If *A takes in AI, they will have the GoI interfering with their operation forever.

Quoting aloges (Reply 19): Do you remember the trouble with the Russian overflight rights?

We went through all of this already on the last thread about AI/*A... AI screwed up, LH took advantage of relaxed bilaterals, there is no trade war coming, AI's reliability is far superior to many *A airlines, etc. etc.

I thought Devesh and I had made it clear enough already? Do we really need to rehash it again?

Aeroblogger sounds like a paid shill for AI or is a public union employee. Besides being strangely fanatically supportive of AI (he actually rationalized the illegal pilots strike that grounded most of its international operations!), he also seems to engage in rather excessive bashing of India's private airlines, by making unsubstantiated claims that they engage in money laundering. Aeroblogger, if you think AI is the greatest airline since the advent of aviation, great for you, lol! Perhaps you know something that most US blue chip corporates who have restricted their employees from AI and Kingfisher, don't know.

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 22):We went over this as well. Air India doesn't have any management. Well, I mean, there is management, but they have no control over the carrier so its as good as not being there.

The corrupt government officials at MoCA have ensured control of even the most minute details so that every rupee can be squeezed out of the carrier.

LOL, and you want an international airline alliance to accept an airline whose management has no control over its operations? I think you just answered your own question.

Before I continue, let me preface this by saying that I read your blog and am an avid fan, and respect you a lot as a writer. But I wholly disagree with you that AI is a reputable carrier. Despite the saga, the airline truly is an embarrassment.

I used to defend AI (and I have flown them plenty across all classes, both pre-and-post rebranding) and I was hopeful of their *A entry until a customer service disaster experience this past summer involving my Mum has left me feeling irate and hopeless about any future for this airline. It only takes one poor impression before you realize that its all talking through the side of the mouth and AI has hardly budged from its lowest points, if not sunk even lower.

Quoting goacom (Reply 25):Aeroblogger sounds like a paid shill for AI or is a public union employee.

AI is not organized enough to be buying shills. And I am self-employed - no unions for me

Quoting goacom (Reply 25): Besides being strangely fanatically supportive of AI (he actually rationalized the illegal pilots strike that grounded most of its international operations!)

This sentence contradicts itself. I supported AI getting grounded by strikes, but I am fanatically supportive of the carrier? That makes a lot of sense...

I realize that you seem to hate unions with a passion, but when the airline is breaking contracts and not delaying salaries, it really isn't hard to justify a strike...

Quoting goacom (Reply 25):he also seems to engage in rather excessive bashing of India's private airlines, by making unsubstantiated claims that they engage in money laundering.

Anybody who understands the system of governance in India understands the corruption involved. I have nothing against private airlines - indeed, I have historically been a big proponent of SG's business model and route network - but that doesn't mean I won't call a spade a spade.

Despite the fact that I like way SG is managed, I still condemned the fact that the current owners procured the carrier from a $100,000,000 bribery scam.

Quoting goacom (Reply 25):Aeroblogger, if you think AI is the greatest airline since the advent of aviation, great for you, lol!

AI is most certainly not the greatest airline since the advent of aviation in any shape or form today. It could be argued that this was the case many, many years ago, but not for a long time...

AI deals with chronic mismanagement and serious corruption, both of which are symptomatic of larger problems which can be found in the Government of India. AI's route network is rationalized poorly, the revenue management systems are archaic, FTDL restrictions are ignored routinely, labor issues are serious and exacerbated, and the carrier is very slow to react to changing market conditions for a variety of reasons, which essentially ensures that it will be uncompetitive for the foreseeable future.

These are all things which can be fairly and objectively criticized about Air India.

On the other hand, issues which passengers face, like reliability and product, aren't really issues. AI's reliability is in line with its competitors worldwide. Its product is superior to every airline in India except 9WFS, which barely exists any more. Internationally, AI's product is certainly in line with competitors.

I don't have a problem with criticizing AI - there are plenty of opportunities to do so. The issue is when people such as yourself jump to judgements based on incomplete, out of date information.

Sorry, Aeroblogger, I last flew on AI round trip just under 2 years ago and in both instances they gave me and my family terrible service. Of course, this was one in AI's sterling record in providing unreliable service over the past 20 years or so. In my experience two years go, they unloaded all the baggage of my entire family so that they could load up the aircraft with fee based excess baggage of other customers. Upon arrival, they refused to compensate me for the delayed baggage, refused to deliver the baggage to my home, forced me to come to the airport to pick up the baggage and refused to compensate me for the 60km taxi ride to pick up my baggage. In India, a 60km ride can take as much as two hours. On my return leg, they refused to give me proper departure time and kept postponing the stated departure time, with no proper explanation which led to me missmy connection flight. In both cases, I was travelling with two infants which made the experience all the more grueling. Just last month, my in-laws had the privilege of experiencing AI's legendary non service with AI's unreliable service due to mechanical issues (or so they claim). I don't like my in-laws very much, but not that much that I would ever recommend that they fly AI again. As I have said, many blue chip companies in the US have issued directives to their travel departments recommending that their employees NOT fly on AI. Bottom line, AI is a third rate airline that should not even exist. It is a plaything of the corrupt politicians and their corrupt vote banks - the public sector unions .

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 20):I don't know why I even bother responding... This thread epitomizes exactly the kind of unwarranted bashing AI receives every time it is brought up in conversation...

With all due respect, comments like the ones that Minister Singh has made are exactly why AI gets the reputation that it has.

*A looks unfavorably on AI because of the vey fact that the GoI is in control of the airline. They impose bureaucratic red tape upon the company that threatens to throw it into a frenzy at a moment's notice.

AI has a reputation for bad customer service and poor reliability. Whether that is a product of management 5, 10, or 15 years ago, AI has to prove that it is up to *A expectations before it can expect to be admitted. Regardless of how long ago you say those problems existed, they are what stick out in people's minds when they think of AI. It is up to AI and the GoI to change their reputation.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 4):If AI had done it's homework and if the Indian Givernment did not wrap that carrier in red tape, the'd be a member now.

Quoting goacom (Reply 26):
LOL, and you want an international airline alliance to accept an airline whose management has no control over its operations? I think you just answered your own question.

If it benefits the alliance, I don't see why not. LH knew the situation at AI when the invitation was issued...

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 27):
Before I continue, let me preface this by saying that I read your blog and am an avid fan, and respect you a lot as a writer. But I wholly disagree with you that AI is a reputable carrier. Despite the saga, the airline truly is an embarrassment.

I used to defend AI (and I have flown them plenty across all classes, both pre-and-post rebranding) and I was hopeful of their *A entry until a customer service disaster experience this past summer involving my Mum has left me feeling irate and hopeless about any future for this airline. It only takes one poor impression before you realize that its all talking through the side of the mouth and AI has hardly budged from its lowest points, if not sunk even lower.

Drop me a PM or an email about the incident - let me see if I can do something...

AI definitely has all kinds of contingency issues which are to be rectified in the current restructuring plan... Dealing with IRROPS is still a headache to put it mildly... AI is not alone to face these problems - as anyone who dealt with IRROPS with pre-merger Continental can attest to, rebookings were a nightmare. And AI's reliability is far better than CO's was. The difference is that US-based carriers throw miles and food vouchers and hotel rooms at you to mollify the passengers, while AI does nothing. If you don't know the right person to talk to, it's definitely not a fun experience...

Also, keep in mind that whatever your mother went through this year, it's nothing compared to the 32 hour delay I faced in 2004, where I slept on a chair next to the gate, ate fast food out of my pocket, got no information, and recieved no compensation. AI has improved leaps and bounds over the years - they haven't had one of these incidents in years now...

Quoting AA94 (Reply 30):AI has a reputation for bad customer service and poor reliability. Whether that is a product of management 5, 10, or 15 years ago, AI has to prove that it is up to *A expectations before it can expect to be admitted. Regardless of how long ago you say those problems existed, they are what stick out in people's minds when they think of AI. It is up to AI and the GoI to change their reputation.

With the GOI in charge and with its public union vote bank running it (or running to the bank!), no fundamental change can be expected, no matter how good the "intentions" of its management and aeroblogger are!

Quoting AA94 (Reply 30):
With all due respect, comments like the ones that Minister Singh has made are exactly why AI gets the reputation that it has.

*A looks unfavorably on AI because of the vey fact that the GoI is in control of the airline. They impose bureaucratic red tape upon the company that threatens to throw it into a frenzy at a moment's notice.

I agree completely with you. But LH knew this was the case when they invited AI...

I don't know how closely you've followed the AI/*A saga, but let me give you some backstory.

LH/*A invited AI to curry favor with the Government of India.
Since LH/SQ were AI's partners, GoI relaxed bilateral agreements over the years
Since LX/OS were AI's partners, GoI ignored the fact that their services were illegal as per the bilaterals signed between India and Switzerland/Austria.AI invested millions of dollars into the Star Alliance entry. There were many delays due to technical snags and a merger between AI/IC in the middle of the integration process. Last year, AI finally completed *A requirements, by the (delayed) date stipulated by Star Alliance, but the application was suspended because AI refused to allow 9W into the alliance as well.

While AI not getting into *A is certainly their own fault due to the delays, LH/*A also took advantage of AI/GoI knowing fully well that the airline wouldn't make it. And when AIdid make it, they closed the door. Certainly not white-as-lily behavior.

Quoting AA94 (Reply 30):AI has a reputation for bad customer service and poor reliability. Whether that is a product of management 5, 10, or 15 years ago, AI has to prove that it is up to *A expectations before it can expect to be admitted.

AI was not rejected from *A because of its reputation. It was rejected because of political games. AI's reputation has only improved since it was invited by LH - not to say that it is good by any standard, but LH knew what it was getting into...

Quoting AA94 (Reply 30):Regardless of how long ago you say those problems existed, they are what stick out in people's minds when they think of AI. It is up to AI and the GoI to change their reputation.

AI's reputation is in tatters, and it needs to be fixed. I don't think anybody disagrees with that. But I respectfully submit that it's not relevant to the discussion at hand...

Quoting JAL (Reply 31):It seems that Star doesn't want to have AI as a member why does AI keeps whining about joining?

AI has spent a ton of money on integration with Star Alliance. It is a very expensive prospect to do this all over again with a new alliance, especially considering the inefficiency of the Indian Government.

I personally think that AI should have jumped on that SkyTeam offer when it was made, but I'm not the Minister of Civil Aviation

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 32):The difference is that US-based carriers throw miles and food vouchers and hotel rooms at you to mollify the passengers, while AI does nothing. If you don't know the right person to talk to, it's definitely not a fun experience...

No one is expecting perfection, but when problems occur, we expect that the airline will make an effort to ameliorate the situation. That is not the case with AI. Why does one have to "know someone" to get the right treatment? This is exactly why AI's reputation is in the gutter.

Quoting goacom (Reply 35): No one is expecting perfection, but when problems occur, we expect that the airline will make an effort to ameliorate the situation. That is not the case with AI. Why does one have to "know someone" to get the right treatment? This is exactly why AI's reputation is in the gutter.

I agree completely. Ground service is the single largest blot on Air India's service.

And sadly, it isn't included in the restructuring plan, because ground services are covered by Singapore Air Terminal Services, a contractor which was appointed by MoCA despite the fact that Air India did a better and cheaper job of covering its own ground services. I guess the cheque was made out for the right amount.

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 20):We went through all of this already on the last thread about AI/*A... AI screwed up, LH took advantage of relaxed bilaterals, there is no trade war coming, AI's reliability is far superior to many *A airlines, etc. etc.

Having flown AI a few times, I would say that AI is safe and has great inflight service. However, their Achilles Heel is their generally abysmal ground service, especially if something irregular like a serious delay or cancellation occurs. Their ground staff have not been empowered to positively and proactively provide service recovery to their passengers. That is why you see so many videos and stories of AI passengers in near-riots and AI managers being attacked by hordes of angry passengers after they have been disserviced. If they could fix this problem they would actually be a 4 or 5 star carrier.

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 37): Having flown AI a few times, I would say that AI is safe and has great inflight service. However, their Achilles Heel is their generally abysmal ground service, especially if something irregular like a serious delay or cancellation occurs. Their ground staff have not been empowered to positively and proactively provide service recovery to their passengers. That is why you see so many videos and stories of AI passengers in near-riots and AI managers being attacked by hordes of angry passengers after they have been disserviced. If they could fix this problem they would actually be a 4 or 5 star carrier.

We're on the same page

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 36): I agree completely. Ground service is the single largest blot on Air India's service.

And sadly, it isn't included in the restructuring plan, because ground services are covered by Singapore Air Terminal Services, a contractor which was appointed by MoCA despite the fact that Air India did a better and cheaper job of covering its own ground services. I guess the cheque was made out for the right amount.

I think we are all on agreement with this. Their in-flight service is usually pretty good. The problem is the before and after part!

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 38):Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 37):
Having flown AI a few times, I would say that AI is safe and has great inflight service. However, their Achilles Heel is their generally abysmal ground service, especially if something irregular like a serious delay or cancellation occurs. Their ground staff have not been empowered to positively and proactively provide service recovery to their passengers. That is why you see so many videos and stories of AI passengers in near-riots and AI managers being attacked by hordes of angry passengers after they have been disserviced. If they could fix this problem they would actually be a 4 or 5 star carrier.

We're on the same page
Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 36):
I agree completely. Ground service is the single largest blot on Air India's service.

Quoting aloges (Reply 3):Oh, for Pete's sake! What if LH doesn't oblige, will they be forced to cut services to India?

If there was a quid pro quo arrangement with the ministry under which they got additional services, then the simple answer is YES. Similarly if LH ownership of LX and OS was in contravention of existing ASA's and overlooked.

Quoting Nimish (Reply 5):Given the dynamics and changes in the region (around EY/ QR/ EK), I think it would be really foolish of *A/LH to let go of this opportunity to let both 9W and AI in.

Nimish, actually, instead of AI going with bowl in hand to *A, OW will want them much more and will possibly induct AI on much better terms. The ministry can hold up approving 9W application to enter *A till then.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 7):Does India really want their bilateral rights with Europe scrutinized at this economic juncture? They are threatening a trade war. Do the people of India really want that?

I think you have the power equation backwards. These airlines want access to India. India is the third largest geography for LH. Take the time to read the CAG report on how PP gave away bilaterals https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B1QkRa2q7-CqRlh1SnBzTDU4ZVE focus on 6th freedom traffic. LH, OS, CX, EY, KL are very dependent.

Not really, the airline business is just a small component of overall trade. Furthermore, Germany has the power of the EU to fall on, if India were so foolish as to threaten a global trade war just to prop up AI's bid. Likewise, the Indian croporates would not go for this kind of action.

Quoting BLRAviation (Reply 42):I think you have the power equation backwards. These airlines want access to India. India is the third largest geography for LH. Take the time to read the CAG report on how PP gave away bilaterals https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B1QkRa2q7-CqRlh1SnBzTDU4ZVE focus on 6th freedom traffic. LH, OS, CX, EY, KL are very dependent.

Quoting goacom (Reply 43):Not really, the airline business is just a small component of overall trade. Furthermore, Germany has the power of the EU to fall on, if India were so foolish as to threaten a global trade war just to prop up AI's bid. Likewise, the Indian croporates would not go for this kind of action.

Apologies in advance, and this is meant more in general, not to you, but ......... Oh Puh-lease!!!!

No country is going to undertake a trade war over ASAs. The statement by the minister is public posturing. The opportunities are much much more than that. The bilateral trade between India and Germany is close to 20 Billion Euros. With the Eurozone in the tank, do you think Germany is going to risk that over a few flights being cut back for LH? I doubt it. Both Merket and Cameron came with hat in hand to pitch for the Eurofighter.

I have served as Chairman of the Infrastructure Committee of the Chamber of Commerce for a few years, and have been active in Chambers for over 20 years. So I can speak with confidence when I request, do not think less of India and its economic power today. Market access has its own power. India is no more the country which goes around hat in hand.

Any govt can hinder or promote any business with policy decisions which are near impossible to challenge. The Ministry's lack of action (neither approve nor disapprove) on LH's A380 request is an example how the ministry can "finger" any airline.

Keep in mind the upcoming elections. Previously it was 2014, now with UPA2 on shaky ground, elections could be as early as 2013. Every political party needs money, and undeclared "black" money is more desired due to a lack of traceability. So as long as carriers rely on "suitcase technology", the unbridled granting of bilateral capacity will continue.

Quote:"I believe a lot of facilities were given to the airline (Lufthansa) so that it would mentor Air India to join Star Alliance. They were given a lot of flights, it was made almost open skies for them. Now we are going to talk to Lufthansa to adhere to the plan we had," Singh said.

The CAG report link I referred to here, specifically criticised the granting of bilaterals during the time of Patel's ministership. The statement of Ajit Singh quoted above refers to the same time frame i.e. when PP was minister. So is Ajit Singh indirectly confirming the CAG criticism of bilaterals? If yes, we should push for action to be take on PP.

Quoting JOYA380B747 (Reply 40):Any AI related thread automatically becomes one of the most interesting read in the Forum
Also, the thread posts tend to be so uniquely representative of their authors....

but do take down the duplicate posts.

But what does surprise me, especially on a "enlightened" forum like A.net, is why does any conversation of AI and Star alliance always degenerate in to "AI is bad and should not be allowed in to *A". Even when the focus of the news report triggering the thread is completely different. I do believe we are not so uni-dimensional in our knowledge and hence our views.

What I gather from both these reports is that the Minister says, "we gave LH special favours in return for them mentoring entry of AI into *A. Now we want LH to live up to the terms of that agreement" (in this case an implied agreement).

In any standard contract, if one party cannot perform its part of the agreement, it is naturally expected that they return any benefits, goodwill, monies, etc. that was given to them as part of the quid pro quo of the contract.

What are our thoughts on this focus? and please, let us not re-focus on whether AI deserves to be in *A or not.

Quoting BLRAviation (Reply 42):I think you have the power equation backwards. These airlines want access to India. India is the third largest geography for LH.

Then we will have to agree to disagree. While LH wants access to India, at what cost?

Quoting BLRAviation (Reply 45):In any standard contract, if one party cannot perform its part of the agreement, it is naturally expected that they return any benefits, goodwill, monies, etc. that was given to them as part of the quid pro quo of the contract.

What contract? In general the ASA is part of a larger bilateral that cannot have parts rolled back but could have the entire amendment rolled back with proper notice. I would be really surprised if India had received no benefits in return. I've yet to see a bilateral modification that didn't benefit both parities.

Agreed. That isn't the issue. The issue is the legalities. India isn't being put down, AI is being mis-managed.

But this is a business decision. One that shouldn't involve a government.

Quoting BLRAviation (Reply 44):The Ministry's lack of action (neither approve nor disapprove) on LH's A380 request is an example how the ministry can "finger" any airline.

I was one who didn't have a problem with that. The India bilaterals clearly limit to a 747 and 400 seats per aircraft. India didn't do any wrong in not extending air service agreements for free. That was one argument where I was legally on India's side. I don't fully understand the decision, but I respect they had no legal reason to let in any aircraft larger than a 747 as that has been in India's ASAs for decades.

AI is moot now anyway for *A. 9W is star alliances preferred candidate for India. Unless something appears in writing allowing multiple airlines in one alliance, 9W will go forward alone. That is a commercial decision. Not something a government should be meddling with.

Quoting BLRAviation (Reply 45):In any standard contract, if one party cannot perform its part of the agreement, it is naturally expected that they return any benefits, goodwill, monies, etc. that was given to them as part of the quid pro quo of the contract.

I wonder if part of the quid pro quo involved "transfer of a suitcase to PP from LH" that can not be returned if GOI were to take away any of the existing benefits to LH.

I wonder if the current minister is just posturing when he makes a case for AI joining Star, but all along he is waiting for a suitcase from LH/9W. Once the suitcase is delivered, he will accept denial of entry to AI and allow 9W to join Star, along with A380 rights to LH/EK(another suitcase from EK).

Everytime the word AI comes on the forum people jump to what a bad airline they are.
quite the contrary i say.
yes they maybe caught in redtape,their on ground services maybe a doubtful issue but one can only commend their inflight service hospitality good meals full meals i might add even on a 50 minute flight and not a bag of peanuts thrown at you.
their inflight entertainment is excellent and they are quite improving on the schedules now that the strikes are over on international routes. so dont just bash AI as i would pick them anyday over the US carriers offering pathetic service,((yes i am entitled to my opinion)) but its true

now only if the GOI stopped meddling and a good adminstration in place,i dont see why AI cant be an asset to any alliance star,ow or st as they have a great regional network only next to 9w.
Fly on them currently and then comment,flew on the 787 last week from Delhi to Chennai and it actually was a dream, so if they can keep up the good work, rest of the world can speculate but AI is going to join the alliance for sure.

Quoting goacom (Reply 43):
Not really, the airline business is just a small component of overall trade. Furthermore, Germany has the power of the EU to fall on, if India were so foolish as to threaten a global trade war just to prop up AI's bid. Likewise, the Indian croporates would not go for this kind of action.
no one is having a trade war and By Gosh if you underestimate the upcoming power of the indian market in general do so at your own peril.

Quoting BLRAviation (Reply 44):Not really, the airline business is just a small component of overall trade. Furthermore, Germany has the power of the EU to fall on, if India were so foolish as to threaten a global trade war just to prop up AI's bid. Likewise, the Indian croporates would not go for this kind of action

India dont need to threaten, straining ties with India in this kind of world economy is a threat to all countries concerned inc india

Quoting AA94 (Reply 30):In my experience two years go, they unloaded all the baggage of my entire family so that they could load up the aircraft with fee based excess baggage of other customers. Upon arrival, they refused to compensate me for the delayed baggage, refused to deliver the baggage to my home, forced me to come to the airport to pick up the baggage

According to your post i have travelled twice once on LH783 FRABKKKUL and my bags never reached KUL and i had to wait a whole three days till the next flight arrived no explanations and no money just sorry it happens, the second LH 756 BOMFRA the bags never reached frankfurt and though they came 24 hrs later it happens . So do we brand LH rubbish?? because i certainly love the professianalism and service of lufthansa.
anyway, goodluck to AI and hope to see them in STAR soon.Also hope to see their A 380s in India
cheers
DR GAURAV PAI

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 15):
If the government really wanted them in Star and I was LH I would say "Alright we'll sponsor you, as long as we can get our A380s flights to India." It will be interesting to see if the gov't plays with LH a little bit. They aren't going to want to lose their India routes.

FYI - the same minister made statements yesterday that he would be amenable to remove the aircraft type limitation entirely. Clearly he's laying out his cards:

- *A can induct both AI and 9W (Something they wanted)
- 380 can be allowed
- AI/ MoCA want AI to enter the *A. This was a key prerequisite for AI's "turnaround plan" - where they had promised to be good and make some money for a change. They have already spent the approx $10m membership fees, and many more millions of dollars on making the IT changes needed. At this moment, they can join *A without any further financial burden, or start talking to OW/ST and spend another 10-20million there.

So let's go back to the beginning. Given OW's moves in the region, what is *A's plan to maintain a hold on subcontinental traffic? Or are they happy to let One world become the dominant carrier in the region?

People badmouth AI because it is a THIRD RATE airline that would not exist without government support. Your good meal for the 50min flight was courtesy of the Indian tax payer, not the the outstanding capabilities of its public unions. Your "opinions" are just that - only opinions. The fact is most blue chip US companies have restricted their staff from flying AI. Heck, even I skip AI for my travels now, even though they are often the cheapest. Their low prices are a refection of their inability to attract customers and this is further backed up by their dwindling market share, even in the Indian market. If you think that the corrupt and incompetent GOI can run a world class airline, while being unable to provide quality education for the masses or solve malnutrition in India, then, good for you!

Quoting gauravpai (Reply 48):Everytime the word AI comes on the forum people jump to what a bad airline they are.
quite the contrary i say.
yes they maybe caught in redtape,their on ground services maybe a doubtful issue but one can only commend their inflight service hospitality good meals full meals i might add even on a 50 minute flight and not a bag of peanuts thrown at you.
their inflight entertainment is excellent and they are quite improving on the schedules now that the strikes are over on international routes. so dont just bash AI as i would pick them anyday over the US carriers offering pathetic service,((yes i am entitled to my opinion)) but its true

Which is the reason why Star has to fight for AI, yet AI needs a deadline extension just to meet Star's requirements... or the reason why the 787 is the plane that will finally save the airline, yet such a pig that AI must demand compensation before it has even entered service... or the reason why

Quoting gauravpai (Reply 48):now only if the GOI stopped meddling and a good adminstration in place,i dont see why AI cant be an asset to any alliance star,ow or st as they have a great regional network only next to 9w.

But how likely would an end to that meddling be if the same GoI officials who abuse AI for their own purposes could suddenly abuse an entire alliance? First class for free to Chicago is nice, but a connection to MCO thrown in is even nicer...

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 34):
While AI not getting into *A is certainly their own fault due to the delays,

So which is it? "Certainly their own fault" or certainly not "completely at fault"?

AI is at fault for their issues, but LH is also guilty of a variety of things, which I explained very clearly upthread.

Quoting aloges (Reply 55): Which is the reason why Star has to fight for AI, yet AI needs a deadline extension just to meet Star's requirements... or the reason why the 787 is the plane that will finally save the airline, yet such a pig that AI must demand compensation before it has even entered service... or the reason why

Where is Star fighting for AI? Star has been fighting againstAI. AI needed a deadline extension, and Star agreed. It's their own doing...

The 787 will not "save" the airline - I'm not aware of anybody who has suggested that it will. The 787 is a great aircraft which AI hopes to use to improve its network and profitability, but there's a lot more which needs to go into an effort to "save" the carrier.

Compensation needed to be agreed on before the aircraft entered service because after delivery, AI would lose leverage. This is common sense.

Quoting aloges (Reply 55): But how likely would an end to that meddling be if the same GoI officials who abuse AI for their own purposes could suddenly abuse an entire alliance? First class for free to Chicago is nice, but a connection to MCO thrown in is even nicer...

GoI cannot and will not be demanding free tickets from Star Alliance partners. What will happen is that they will ticket using Air India ticket stock and then leave AI with the bill, just like they do now.. That only requires a simple interline agreement.

This fear of "abuse" is unwarranted, not to mention quite honestly absurd...

Quoting goacom (Reply 54): unable to provide quality education for the masses or solve malnutrition in India, then, good for you!

Totally uncalled for; you have your opinions i have mine, and what has education or malnutrition got to do with getting the GOI out of AI and making it a really good airline?
and btw I would fly AI anyday over the inflight service of any US carrier , any of them,again my opinion or am i not supposed to have one?

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 58):But how likely would an end to that meddling be if the same GoI officials who abuse AI for their own purposes could suddenly abuse an entire alliance? First class for free to Chicago is nice, but a connection to MCO thrown in is even nicer...

yeah i agree thats the risk and though difficult the GOI has to be kept away from meddling in the affairs of AI thats all im saying If instances like what you say occur, then give an ultimatum and show them the door !

Having AI on board would be a disaster for *A. AI's unreliability and terrible customer service would piss off a lot of passengers who travel with *A. There is no hope for AI, until and unless the GOI divests itself from it and allows management to hire and fire its workers at will without having to be beholden to AI's inefficient and often corrupt public sector unions.

AMEN!

Air India is a third-rate airline. Lufthansa shouldn't even waste its time with this embarrassing situation.

If AI needs LH's help in joining the *A, what does that really say about AI. That carrier should just be left to die a natural death. If *A accepts AI membership, than that is the definitive proof that *A will allow anybody to join without any level of competence.

Quoting gauravpai (Reply 62):
I challenge you sir, willing to bet every cent that AI is never going to die any death natural or otherwise and is here to stay wether people like it or not fortunately or unfortunately

So youre writing it off too soon..

Agree AI will survive a long time. But at a very high cost. I believe the GoI has far better uses for those funds (e.g., build airports, roads, and rail). Every dollar spent subsidizing AI is a dollar wasted.

For some reason the GoI gets stuck on pride instead of letting the market determine the victor. Pride is expensive. Let 6E, 9W, Spicejet, and Gojet grow as they wish. Build the airports to help them grow. Clean up the Indian airport system to make international connections as easy as DXB and the other competitors.

Due to its HUGE O&D traffic, even if low yield, India has the potential to be the dominant hub of the region (including the mid-east). All they need is the policy and infrastructure to enable that. Coddling AI won't let that happen. In fact, if India adopted a pro-aviation strategy, they could have as many as four dominant hubs: DEL, a new BOM airport, MAA, and either BLR or HYD. Each has a clearly identifiable advantage and thus market. The only reason I say BLR or HYD is their proximity pretty much rules out two hubs.

Quoting gauravpai (Reply 59):Totally uncalled for; you have your opinions i have mine, and what has education or malnutrition got to do with getting the GOI out of AI and making it a really good airline?
and btw I would fly AI anyday over the inflight service of any US carrier , any of them,again my opinion or am i not supposed to have one?

Sure you can have your own opinion. This is the internet. People believe in aliens and fairies too, and it is well known that organizations pay others to pad opinions to improve their reputations. Unfortunately, the statistics do not lie. Even after billions of dollars in aid to AI, its market share continues to crash and burn.

Quoting gauravpai (Reply 62):I challenge you sir, willing to bet every cent that AI is never going to die any death natural or otherwise and is here to stay wether people like it or not fortunately or unfortunately

Stop living in lala land gaurav. The indian consumer has spoken as evidenced by its dwindling market share. Unless the governments gets its ugly hands out of AI, privatize it and lets its management do its thing, AI will be doomed. The fact of the matter is that they have been promising reforms for decades, to no avail. The government uses these so called restructuring events to just fund more aircraft and line its pockets.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 63):For some reason the GoI gets stuck on pride instead of letting the market determine the victor. Pride is expensive. Let 6E, 9W, Spicejet, and Gojet grow as they wish. Build the airports to help them grow. Clean up the Indian airport system to make international connections as easy as DXB and the other competitors.

Due to its HUGE O&D traffic, even if low yield, India has the potential to be the dominant hub of the region (including the mid-east). All they need is the policy and infrastructure to enable that. Coddling AI won't let that happen. In fact, if India adopted a pro-aviation strategy, they could have as many as four dominant hubs: DEL, a new BOM airport, MAA, and either BLR or HYD. Each has a clearly identifiable advantage and thus market. The only reason I say BLR or HYD is their proximity pretty much rules out two hubs.

The Ideal vision of Indian Aviation that just never will penetrate the skull of a Member of the Parliament.

Quoting gauravpai (Reply 62):I challenge you sir, willing to bet every cent that AI is never going to die any death natural or otherwise and is here to stay wether people like it or not fortunately or unfortunately

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 63):Agree AI will survive a long time. But at a very high cost. I believe the GoI has far better uses for those funds (e.g., build airports, roads, and rail). Every dollar spent subsidizing AI is a dollar wasted.

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 70):GoI already wastes plenty on AI - surely they could afford to bring in some external expertise.

Gaurav, Lightsaber, Rohit, your comments are based on the assumption that the Govt. of India wants to run AI as an airline when, in reality AI is run as GoI's private NetJets. The employees of AI are not fool enough to run a flight DEL-SXR-DXB with only 20 passengers. It is the politicians like the Abdullah family or Mufti family who need to curry political favour with voters. Start this flight 3~6 months before the election. Tom Tom. Win election. Let AI carry the losses for a year. Shut down flight.

Similarly, use AI to establish a route, spend the upfront costs, with initial low yields. Then add 9W and IT to operate the same route. Make AI shut down the flight. Take favours in the form of "political help" and "paper" from 9W, and girls and liquor from IT.

AI is the 'Kamadhenu' whose milk has long run out. She is now being kept alive just so that her life blood can now be sucked out. The rumours are that with upcoming elections, the ministers want to earn at least 1 Crore a day. See the sequence of ministers. The NCP was given agriculture and aviation to earn. TMC was given railways, etc. etc. Valayar Ravi was brought in only as a pause between two looters.

Do you honestly believe that Rs 30,000Cr. was given to revive AI and for the benefit of AI employees? Despite the CAG report, why were all the 27 Dreamliner's bought? Why was the settlement deal with Boeing kept so hush hush. It will be audited by CAG and again the skeletons will brought out, and then the group of ministers will be used as a defence to deflect any charges. (Remember PP, when he was interviewed by Karan Thapar? His defence=The EGoM approved the deals with Boeing and Airbus.)

Heck why was the final draft of the deal held up by the Law Ministry? They needed to refer the "suitcase library" to draft the agreement "correctly".

So when someone refers to the operations of AI, I always remember that the employees of AI have less than zero authority and keep in mind an owner who is only interested in siphoning and squeezing.

And as everyone says, AI is not closing any time soon. An alternate revenue source has not yet been created.

Quoting BLRAviation (Reply 71):
Gaurav, Lightsaber, Rohit, your comments are based on the assumption that the Govt. of India wants to run AI as an airline when, in reality AI is run as GoI's private NetJets.

Devesh, I'm fully aware of the system and I've been trying to explain it myself over the last few threads - you took my quote out of context. GoI runs AI as an airline when it suits the powers that be - if that means joining *A (probably so that MPs can get lounge access on Lufty at AI's expense or some such reason), then alliance membership becomes a priority.

GoI will spend whatever it has to to ensure that the golden eggs keep coming. And if that means occasionally making commercially-relevant decision, so be it.

Quoting BLRAviation (Reply 71):your comments are based on the assumption that the Govt. of India wants to run AI as an airline when, in reality AI is run as GoI's private NetJets.

Netjets would be cheaper. Billions per year cheaper.

Quoting BLRAviation (Reply 71):Do you honestly believe that Rs 30,000Cr. was given to revive AI and for the benefit of AI employees?

No. But at some time the corruption must stop. India has far better uses of the funds. Corruption changes the effective tax rate and slows business growth. Exactly what is *not* wanted in this economy.

But the fact is there is an AI. It is not being run well as a business. Until AI the business is more amenable to following *A rules, there will be high resistance to having that airline in *A. This is sad. For AI left to manage AI would be a great airline. But that won't happen. If I were on the *A steering committee, would I want the GoI directing *A? Thus a strike versus AI.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 75): But the fact is there is an AI. It is not being run well as a business. Until AI the business is more amenable to following *A rules, there will be high resistance to having that airline in *A. This is sad. For AI left to manage AI would be a great airline. But that won't happen. If I were on the *A steering committee, would I want the GoI directing *A? Thus a strike versus AI.

This is the part I don't get... What exactly do you mean by "AI is more amenable to following *A rules"???

I think that many forget that it is not only LH who desides if AI will ever be a partner of *A.
If I remember corretcly, all *partners has to vote possitive if is going to happen and also to any new members.
If one or two partner is putting their thumps down, AI will not be accepted into STAR.

Quoting copenhagenboy (Reply 77):I think that many forget that it is not only LH who desides if AI will ever be a partner of *A.
If I remember corretcly, all *partners has to vote possitive if is going to happen and also to any new members.
If one or two partner is putting their thumps down, AI will not be accepted into STAR.

I don't think it has to be unanimous - just some kind of majority. I remember that TG opposed SQ's entry. And more recently, QF probably opposed QR's entry into OW.

LH is a very influential company - if they support, LX, OS, SN are all guaranteed, and A3, JP are highly likely to support.

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 76):What exactly do you mean by "AI is more amenable to following *A rules"???

The easiest example was the prior 3 1/2 year application process. Getting the computer software changed to *A status. As time goes on, there will be demands for timely upgrades. (Perhaps to add frequent flier features.)

AI must also be willing to code share with enough partners to gain their votes. Joining an alliance is giving up control to how the main body votes with many changes upon initiation. The big 'rule' is change.

Quoting copenhagenboy (Reply 77):I think that many forget that it is not only LH who desides if AI will ever be a partner of *A.

That is correct. But I was unable to find a link to their admittance rules. For now, I think LH will focus on 9W.

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 78):I don't think it has to be unanimous - just some kind of majority. I remember that TG opposed SQ's entry. And more recently, QF probably opposed QR's entry into OW.

LH is a very influential company - if they support, LX, OS, SN are all guaranteed, and A3, JP are highly likely to support.

Unfortunately, we do not know what the rules are for *A and voting.

Back when the alliance was small (ie less than 10 carriers) the founding members got a golden vote but everybody had to agree to any entry. The launched a program to change the voting due to the number of carriers it was widely announced as part of the *A organization changes, but nothing was ever publicly disclosed.

It was discussed widely when SQ joined that TG got something from other partners to agree to SQ joining. In a similar move they extended the US membership by 5years when they agreed to CO joining, so horse trading happens in all businesses including alliances.

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 81):
The *A "rule" was to get it done by July 2011. AI complied with the rule. I'm still not seeing the point...

Thats of course a tale that isnt true. AI believes they complied while the rest of the partners disgaree.
Star alliance saus no and the quote from the indian newspaper clearly says AIs information could not be verified. Pause for thoughts...

And no it wasnt by 2011 it was by 2009 they should have achieved their integration but Ai time management were a bit off...

This is political posturing. LH to sponsor AI again. rejected the first time then they come back again offering some more and thinking all will be fine. Sorry it doesnt work that way. get you house in order first and feel a bit of shame.LH to sponsor again is indeed very unlikely to happen unless the Indian government offers some very lucrative benefits and at the moment they dont have many cards they can play.
EU has a horizontal aviation agreement with India since 2008 reducing the manoverability for lucrative offerings. And the new 747 works fine to india if the A380 stays banned.

Moreover LH has decent indian partners in the Jet powerbrokers and they have their own very good political connections.

Somehow I see nothing coming from this. just a political post from the minister to appease those that care and have their interest in AI.

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 81):The *A "rule" was to get it done by July 2011. AI complied with the rule. I'm still not seeing the point...

AI didn't meet any of the extensions. Setting the last extension as the benchmark? AI showed contempt for adapting. Part of joining an alliance is adapting the alliance needs.

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 82): it was by 2009 they should have achieved their integration but Ai time management were a bit off...

AI missed deadline after deadline. If anyone Google searches for Air India and Star Alliance and starts to filter by year, there is a long tale told there.

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 81):AI codeshares with 7 *A carriers which I can think off of the top of my head, maybe more...

Excellent. They haven't lost that.

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 82):LH to sponsor again is indeed very unlikely to happen unless the Indian government offers some very lucrative benefits and at the moment they dont have many cards they can play.
EU has a horizontal aviation agreement with India since 2008 reducing the manoverability for lucrative offerings. And the new 747 works fine to india if the A380 stays banned.

That is my thought. The GoI doesn't have much to offer that LH wants today that they would be willing to put onto the table. It would be amusing to see AI/GoI take on the EU. I'm sure that companies in the EU feel they gave India provisions they shouldn't have.

Everyone should remember bilaterals involve far more than aviation. Something was given to India in trade for aviation rights. Thus, cutting one aspect means the other side will find legal recourse to cut another aspect.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 83):AI didn't meet any of the extensions. Setting the last extension as the benchmark? AI showed contempt for adapting. Part of joining an alliance is adapting the alliance needs.

The last extension is the benchmark. This is normal. Take, for example, the following conversation:

Quote:
Me: Thanks for the money. Please do ABC by tomorrow.
You: I can't do it by tomorrow. I'll do it by Saturday.
Me: OK.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 83):
That is my thought. The GoI doesn't have much to offer that LH wants today that they would be willing to put onto the table. It would be amusing to see AI/GoI take on the EU.

GoI will be taking on the EU regardless of this alliance issue because of the backwards policy which they call ETS.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 83):AI needs to focus on securing ETOPS 220 and deploying the 787s on new routes. AI also needs to rationalize their hubbing. *A isn't enough to save AI; they must first get their house in order.

Huh? AI has rationalized their hubbing - they've consolidated operations for the most part at DEL. AI already has ETOPS 220. AI has the 787s ready to go on new routes, such as MEL/SYD. I'm just not getting your point...

We'll have to disagree on this. If someone owes me something by Monday and begs to have it by Thursday and instead promises the following Tuesday... I'm going to be miffed even if they meet the 8 day late milestone. I would like to see AI's benchmarks on what they met. If AI did indeed meet all of the *A qualifications, why didn't the post an article with *details* like those in Randy's (Boeing) blog.

If any western company had been dismissed, they would have gone public with a laundry list of improvements and how they met the guidelines. Why didn't AI? Thus I wonder what they missed.

In business, there often is a HUGE penalty for deadlines. AI didn't meet the first, second, or third deadline. LH and other *A members made public comments. But what I haven't seen is proof AI met their commitments.

I would love to end this discussion and see the list of requirements versus AI's status. Alas, neither AI nor *A have spilled that list. I personally wonder why AI hasn't let it be leaked. It is so easy to do so today...

Then they should discuss that with LH and *A as well as their respective governments (if bilaterals are involved). That would be a welcome change from the public rhetoric. LH is a well run airline, they would listen to any reasonable offer.

There should also be a structure on how the GoI agrees not to interfere with *A internal affairs if AI is admitted. I personally think they would try and that would be an expense *A doesn't need.

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 84):GoI will be taking on the EU regardless of this alliance issue because of the backwards policy which they call ETS.

The environmental trading scheme will have everyone taking on the EU.

But if the GoI tries to punish LH in the ways suggested... This will give the EU focus.

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 84):AI has rationalized their hubbing - they've consolidated operations for the most part at DEL.

I meant ETOPS 220 on the 787, I should have been more specific. No one has 787 ETOPS 220. I know AI just received the type, but the first airlines to achieve 787 ETOPS 220 will have a competitive advantage. I'm glad to hear they have ETOPS 220 (I assume for the 77Ls and probably other 777s).

Does AI have convenient international hubbing that competes well with EK/QR/EY/TK? When that is achieved, I will consider their hubbing rationalized. Unfortunately for AI, the benchmark of what is expected moved during their LONG *A application process.

I am harsh on AI as they have so much unrealized potential. They have started to improve, but need to pick up the pace.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 85): We'll have to disagree on this. If someone owes me something by Monday and begs to have it by Thursday and instead promises the following Tuesday... I'm going to be miffed even if they meet the 8 day late milestone.

I didn't say that *A has no right to be miffed - they absolutely do. But if you agree to the 8 day late milestone, then you have no right to complain after the fact.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 85): I would like to see AI's benchmarks on what they met. If AI did indeed meet all of the *A qualifications, why didn't the post an article with *details* like those in Randy's (Boeing) blog.

AI is under a non-disclosure agreement regarding Star Alliance integration. Posting this info publicly is like asking for rejection.

Anyway, I recently got a chance to talk with the guy at *A responsible for AI's integration alliance-side. He confirmed that the documents quoted by Mint way-back-when were real.

He's gone to EK now...

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 85): I would love to end this discussion and see the list of requirements versus AI's status. Alas, neither AI nor *A have spilled that list. I personally wonder why AI hasn't let it be leaked. It is so easy to do so today...

AI leaked it to some members of the press who are known to be reliable. Leaking it to the public is not a smart option.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 85): Then they should discuss that with LH and *A as well as their respective governments (if bilaterals are involved). That would be a welcome change from the public rhetoric. LH is a well run airline, they would listen to any reasonable offer.

That's exactly what GoI is doing. You didn't notice that GoI quietly slipped announcements in the past few weeks about A380 operations possibly being certified?

You keep asking "what does GoI have to offer to LH/*A?" I guess I don't understand your question properly...

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 85): How is the timing of connections? In particular SE Asia to Europe.

The last thing AI needs to be doing is going after low-yielding Europe-SE Asia traffic. The Indian market is huge, and AI has home-court advantage. That is what their hubbing structure is (rightly) based around.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 85): Does AI have convenient international hubbing that competes well with EK/QR/EY/TK? When that is achieved, I will consider their hubbing rationalized. Unfortunately for AI, the benchmark of what is expected moved during their LONG *A application process.

I guess the likes of A3 or ET need to be kicked out of *A because their hubgging isn't as "rationalized" as EK's

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 86):But if you agree to the 8 day late milestone, then you have no right to complain after the fact.

But it wasn't agreed to being met. And if letting something slide wasn't in writing, then it wasn't allowed. In real life, we let things slide as it might not be worth the conflict.

With AI, they are the employee one looks for an excuse to fire. They were given a requirement and didn't meet the deadline. If someone *not authorized* says 'that's ok,' it doesn't count.

*A put out a statement that AI didn't meet the requirements. While I would love to know the real details, that is the best information we have today. After missing so many deadlines, like a person, AI has lost the benefit of the doubt. If this was for the first deadline, I would have a 180 degree different opinion.

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 86):AI is under a non-disclosure agreement regarding Star Alliance integration. Posting this info publicly is like asking for rejection.

I didn't say post, I said leak. There is a legal difference.

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 86):AI leaked it to some members of the press who are known to be reliable.

Then why do we only have verbal to go off of? AI had criteria to meet and any rational company creates a 'Stoplight chart' (or a variation) to show how they're doing. AI should have leaked one of those to the press if the news was good.

That information is almost impossible to keep inside a company. So to myself, that implies AI wasn't passing with flying colors. Heck, I've seen stuff on the web that should send people to jail. But it leaks. Heck, once a drawing I and *one* other engineer were working on was leaked. (Luckily, by a VP who was authorized to leak such information.)
Aerospace is one of the leakiest professions out there. The people in it like to talk.

I noticed nothing official. I have noticed rumors and statements by individuals unable to offer such deals to LH.

I think LH is more focused on their fleet rationalization (fewer types). Any executive within LH worth anything who is diverting attention from fleet renewal to AI isn't doing their main job. While LH obviously will have executives who work *A issues and only *A, other executives who are now doing other important work would be busy.

Why? If it is cheap to have the connections, why not compete? Extra yield never hurts. Let the computers decide which ticket is most profitable to sell. Free money should never be ignored. More connections increases the value to *A and would erode any resistance.

Companies like to make money and grow. The more AI enables that for other *A members, the more excited they would be about AI joining.

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 86):I guess the likes of A3 or ET need to be kicked out of *A because their hubgging isn't as "rationalized" as EK's

Since they are 'already in the club,' the rules are different.

I simply explain a number of reasons why *A wouldn't be as excited today with AI as when the offer was initially made. I doubt A3 and ET would be offered membership today. But they met their deadlines so they are in.

I very much suspect *A is 'hunkering down' due to the European Economic crisis. While LH should work on *A as it should boost revenue, they have to be very cost focused today (e.g., the fleet renewal/rationalization effort).

Lightsaber

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