tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5821098719340852065.post2580144580021474537..comments2015-07-28T11:14:05.911+02:00Comments on Furahan Biology and Allied Matters: Ballonts under pressure (Ballonts IV)Sigmund Nastrazzurrohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16449461215427527447noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5821098719340852065.post-67127580859664021722014-01-04T16:55:38.745+01:002014-01-04T16:55:38.745+01:00There&#39;s another option besides compressing the...There&#39;s another option besides compressing the lift gas or venting it--compression is a lot of work, and venting wastes both the chemical energy in the hydrogen as well as the energy needed to replace it. I would suggest a better option is to evolve a two-way biochemical pathway that stores hydrogen in a lipid or carbohydrate (I&#39;m thinking lipids are the way to go, given higher energy:weight ratio and higher ratio of useful hydrogen to dead-weight carbon and oxygen). As far as I know this is biochemically feasible.<br /><br />This way the animal&#39;s energy storage organs double as lift-gas reserves. Liberate some H2 to rise; bind it to fat to sink.<br /><br />(Sorry for commenting on very old posts! I&#39;m still working my way to the present...)Uncephalizednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5821098719340852065.post-38805343725552904112011-08-20T04:57:27.491+02:002011-08-20T04:57:27.491+02:00Well, if the creatures are capable of strong-but-t...Well, if the creatures are capable of strong-but-thin mylar-like membranes, perhaps they can handle lithe and efficient muscle fibers.Evan Blackhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10493966209787828900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5821098719340852065.post-62484927516764947992011-08-19T20:24:42.518+02:002011-08-19T20:24:42.518+02:00I like Selden&#39;s idea about having a &#39;tank&...I like Selden&#39;s idea about having a &#39;tank&#39; with compressed gas. To get gas into the high-pressure container would probably require a few steps with compression chambers separated by valves. Kopout is right about how compression increases density. The wall of the &#39;tank&#39; should be extremely strong though. Let&#39;s hope that it, and the muscles taking care of the compression, don&#39;t weigh too much.Sigmund Nastrazzurrohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16449461215427527447noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5821098719340852065.post-61793439682513207022011-08-19T00:25:19.782+02:002011-08-19T00:25:19.782+02:00I didn&#39;t even think of that, kopout. Compress...I didn&#39;t even think of that, <b>kopout</b>. Compression <i>would</i> increase the weight of a given parcel of gas.<br /><br />Xenobiology is awesome!!!Evan Blackhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10493966209787828900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5821098719340852065.post-48401494667738049112011-08-17T05:48:20.222+02:002011-08-17T05:48:20.222+02:00I think compressed gas would be denser and maybe n...I think compressed gas would be denser and maybe not lift as much.Just checked, I am right, you just have to make sure you compress enough of the gas to make a significant difference but given the narrow tolerances we are dealing with that may not be a problem.kopoutnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5821098719340852065.post-9338414677751045642011-08-17T00:30:16.173+02:002011-08-17T00:30:16.173+02:00Wouldn&#39;t that &quot;swallowed&quot; gas still ...Wouldn&#39;t that &quot;swallowed&quot; gas still lift the creature?Evan Blackhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10493966209787828900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5821098719340852065.post-84671034275003009332011-08-13T16:34:38.949+02:002011-08-13T16:34:38.949+02:00Perhaps ballonts might have an internal bladder in...Perhaps ballonts might have an internal bladder into which they compress (swallow) gas from their lifting bubble? This would allow them to control their lift (and thus altitude) without having to lose hydrogen, which presumably could take an appreciable time to regenerate from water.Seldenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09270947240275525989noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5821098719340852065.post-5041546826300365982011-08-08T02:01:41.629+02:002011-08-08T02:01:41.629+02:00in regards to the &quot;hybrid ballont&quot; idea....in regards to the &quot;hybrid ballont&quot; idea..mainly i was thinking about creatures that use lifting gas to offset most of their mass. the Festo &#39;jellyfish&#39; and &#39;manta&#39; balloons fits this definition pretty well. perhaps like the Festo manta, the ballont&#39;s &#39;wings&#39; would actually be specially shaped lift gas bladders with lightweight tendons lining it, so that small muscles could make it flex in the right motions.<br /><br />alternately, really small ballont types might have insect like wings or even batlike membrane wings stiffened with reinforced gas cells instead of bones.mithrilhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03088999203605302318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5821098719340852065.post-77951422251426815312011-08-04T20:01:21.382+02:002011-08-04T20:01:21.382+02:00Hot air balloons are &quot;steered&quot; by changi...Hot air balloons are &quot;steered&quot; by changing elevations. Generally at different levels of the sky their are breezes blowing in different directions, and updrafts and downdrafts.<br /><br />A Ballont that had some control over it&#39;s buoyancy and good vision, and a moderate brain could go where it wanted to go, if not necessarily quickly or in a straight line.<br /><br />Since it has to be able to generate hydrogen, even if slowly to fill the bladder, it could also vent hydrogen (in moderation) to descend.<br /><br /><br />I recommend Frederik Pohl&#39;s Jem for pretty well thought out Ballonts.j. w. bjerkhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06800512284198234202noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5821098719340852065.post-24413326588720598932011-08-04T12:24:52.022+02:002011-08-04T12:24:52.022+02:00JohnnyYesterday:
About a bladder helping with runn...JohnnyYesterday:<br />About a bladder helping with running around. A gasbag that would lift half a body is still very voluminous, and is probably very vulnerable. You solved the latter problem nicely because the the bag is not continually inflated. On a light planet that might work (not because balloons lift more -they do not- but because you only need very lightly built legs to jump). <br /><br />Metalraptor:<br />I agree that, once balont evolution is under way, it makes sense that adults help keep young ones aloft until they are large enough to float with easy on their own. <br /> I have my doubt about a hydrid system, at least for medium sized ballonts. If you look at the images in the ballont posts, you will see that the liftable mass for even a 1-m radius ballont is mall. That is all there is to build a body out of, and if that includes wings, these will be small. I cannot see them overcoming drag easily, at least not if there is a bit of wind. <br /><br />In fact, so far I have not equiped any ballont with powered flight for that reason. Perhaps I should reconsider for large ones. <br /><br />I have never read Peter ward&#39;s book. I did not worry much about ballonts bursting into flames, as there isn&#39;t that much to generate a spark. As for lightning, would ballonts with little mass attract it? Perhaps very occasionally a ballonts does explode on a dark and stormy night... <br /><br />Mithril:<br />You and Metalraptor have a point there. I am still afraid that propeller motors as used in zeppelins provide so much more thrust than animal wings that the ballont would be severely powered. Then again, I have no idea how much thrust is needed and how much could be generated. Perhaps that is something for a future post, if I manage to find out, that is.Sigmund Nastrazzurrohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16449461215427527447noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5821098719340852065.post-59061726392651375422011-08-03T23:33:21.066+02:002011-08-03T23:33:21.066+02:00so far all the examinations of ballonts have assum...so far all the examinations of ballonts have assumed a blimp like approach, where the gas balloon provides all the lift. it seems to me that a &#39;hybrid airship&#39; approach would be more likely in light of the limitations nature puts on such schemes. hybrid airships, in real life, have shapess that provide additional lift in forward flight. the creature would have to keep moving, but with the reduction in weight caused by the gas bladder&#39;s lift, could fly longer using less energy.<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_airshipmithrilhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03088999203605302318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5821098719340852065.post-73896871842027161882011-08-02T19:58:32.992+02:002011-08-02T19:58:32.992+02:00From Metalraptor:
Hello, this is Metalraptor. I r...From Metalraptor:<br /><br />Hello, this is Metalraptor. I recently read your posts on ballonts on the Furaha blog, and was going to post a comment but my computer locked me out...again. I am going to try and have that fixed in the future. Anyway, I had a possible solution for your problem of ballont reproduction. If its fairly easy for a fifteen foot/five meter ballont to lift a mass of hundreds of kilograms or more (as shown in your graphs) it should be a simple matter for a grown ballont to simply carry its offspring on its body until they grow large enough to take...um, flight...on their own.<br /> <br /> Alternately, a juvenile ballont could make use of a partial lifting effect in order to achieve effective gliding or powered flight abilities until it could float on its own. Gliding animals like flying squirrels and colugos can be very effective in dense forests if such animals can keep their speed of descent as low as possible, and smaller ballonts would be masters at this. A small ballont with powered flight would also waste much less energy in staying aloft than a creature that lacks any floating ability whatsoever (like a bird). Juvenile creatures taking flight as soon as they are born is actually not that radical of an idea. Pterosaur embryos suggest that these creatures could fly soon after birth.<br /> <br /> I was also wondering if you were aware of Peter Ward&#39;s ballont experiment, a speculative lineage of flying toads he termed the &quot;zeppelinoids&quot;. Strangely, these were the only actual speculative biology lifeforms in the whole book of Future Evolution. Ward does point out one Achilles Heel of the ballont system, hydrogen gas is extremely flammable, and with ballonts being high-flying organisms this makes them rather likely to get struck by lightning. And explode. Spectacularly. Still, he does point out that lightning strikes are so rare as to not invalidate the concept of a ballont.Sigmund Nastrazzurrohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16449461215427527447noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5821098719340852065.post-51653979363839670462011-08-01T04:03:47.804+02:002011-08-01T04:03:47.804+02:00Perhaps ballonts reproduce by budding. The large p...Perhaps ballonts reproduce by budding. The large parent supports its growing offspring until their gas envelopes are large enough that they can fly on their own.<br /><br />That still leaves the problem of the very first ballont, how did it reach adulthood if it couldn&#39;t fly below a certain volume? <br /><br />Perhaps the first ballonts couldn&#39;t fly, but used their gas sacs to lessen their weight so they could jump farther and farther. <br /><br />Maybe they <i>wanted</i> to catch the wind, so they&#39;d jump up when it was blowing and sail on it. <br />For this, perhaps they could inflate their envelopes fairly rapidly by reacting concentrated hydrogen peroxide with a reducing agent.<br /><br />Originally, the generation of concentrated hydrogen peroxide was part of their defense mechanism. Spill rocket-grade peroxide on something that can burn, and it&#39;ll spontaneously ignite.JohnnyYesterdayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06395036413844577355noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5821098719340852065.post-18233604623052259362011-07-30T23:33:43.067+02:002011-07-30T23:33:43.067+02:00Evan: interesting idea! I&#39;ll have a look at lo...Evan: interesting idea! I&#39;ll have a look at low temperatures. The limit will be zero centigrade though, assuming you don&#39;t want to freeze your animals. bear in mind that there is a third power law there.<br /> As for drag, well, I thought about it, and reasoned that as long as volumes are so large that there is no change of self-propelled ballonts anyway, I might as well keep them spherical to keep membrane weight down. I suppose drag comes into play as soon as any semblance of control comes into play.<br /><br />Anonymous/Rodlox: that must be what I was thinking of at the time (I do not remember, sadly). Thanks for the pun appreciation; this not being my native language it&#39;s appreciated. <br /><br />Rodlox proper: might be...Sigmund Nastrazzurrohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16449461215427527447noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5821098719340852065.post-21621923220051028372011-07-30T21:25:22.133+02:002011-07-30T21:25:22.133+02:00a thought - perhaps ballonts have an evolutionary ...a thought - perhaps ballonts have an evolutionary intermediate stage along the lines of, not a jellyfish, but a Nereid Cloudrocket...and they gain the ability over generations to store more and more gasses in their bodies. (this would let them fine-tune their altitude/direction with little puffs of air - and emergency jetting away from serious danger)rodloxhttp://rodlox.livejournal.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5821098719340852065.post-36533383728734164082011-07-30T19:53:42.685+02:002011-07-30T19:53:42.685+02:00i, rodlox (on lj) say,
*C.rubrum* reminds me (con...i, rodlox (on lj) say,<br /><br />*C.rubrum* reminds me (conceptually) of a giraffe wevil/beetle)<br /><br />your puns are fine.<br /><br />lots of food for thought about ballonts. thank you for sharing this.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5821098719340852065.post-84228182558240205492011-07-30T17:52:46.100+02:002011-07-30T17:52:46.100+02:00I had never even considered the temperature of the...I had never even considered the temperature of the lifting gas, but it seems that it has little effect on the density of hydrogen. But what if we turn around the equation? Hydrogen may not expand much with heat, but what if the atmosphere around the creature is cooler? Is it possible that ballonts can thrive in high-latitude areas with generally colder climates?<br /><br />I have a planet idea with a surface atmospheric pressure of 9 atm (humans live at the highest point of the planet, where the density is less than 3 atm). I&#39;m definitely going to explore ballont life there, but I&#39;d also like to include some lighter-than-air life on Nereus as well. It seems like the square-cube law is the worst enemy of ballonts, though; I&#39;ll have to fight hard for my floaty nereids. :(<br /><br />You bring up a good point with the drag coefficient of denser atmospheres. One thing that I don&#39;t think has been mentioned in this series of blogs yet is the aerodynamics of the gas bladder. Spherical objects have been analyzed up to this point (most likely because of the easier math involved) but a more oblong, bullet-shaped form would probably be advantageous in dense environments, cutting down on drag without shrinking the size of the bladder as much.Evan Blackhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10493966209787828900noreply@blogger.com