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Knees, Knees, Knees

I am interested in possibiliy introducing Tekki Shodan/Nihanchi to my class, my school has a heavy competition focus so it has generally been a neglected kata for us since it is not normally allowed as a first round kata in tournaments.

The other reason that I want to start teaching it is that It is an excellent kata for larger, more "stationary" indiviuals that are more interested in self protection than tournaments. Not that I don't think those students should learn the more agile, movement based kata, especially if they want to teach in the future. but that being said the idea of teaching katas that require very agile movements (say chinto) to people who's bodies and fighting styles simply are not built for it seems silly to me.

Teaching a 40 year old 140kg purple belt Chinto rather than Nihanchi seem like a disservice. Hence my desire to start teaching the kata.

That brings me to the title of this post, Nihanchi-Dachi hurts my knees when I do it the way that Iain suggests, and I am concerned that this makes it unsuitable for teaching to a lot of those same larger students since a lot of them have weak knees. Am I approaching this from the wrong direction and the kata will help to stregthen the kness, am I doing the stance wrong, should I look to more to the Hachi/Kiba Dachi versions of the kata, or just avoid it for those with weaker knees?

On a more general note does anyone have good training excerises/drills for stregthening knees joints?

Hi Mike. I'm not sure how Iain does it, so I can't comment on that but I basically perform the Naihanchi Dachi as demonstrated in Choki Motobus book "Watashi no Karate jutsu". Essentially the stance is structured around the principle of relaxed tension. The knees face forward and soft tension is achieved through the back of the legs and outer thigh. The feet are also faced forward with as much of the surface of the sole of the foot in contact with the floor as possible. Do not grip the floor by contracting the toes, allow the toes to relax in order to support the aim of applying energy into the floor through the maximum surface area making contact. This practice is not only less demanding physically, it is also very supportive of the concepts which Naihanchi teaches such as rooting and power generation through the Tanden. I hope that helps. Regards

There are many different approaches to the stance in Naihanchi, and I must admit that I'm not familiar with Iain's, and without seeing how you are doing it, I can't really give too much of a critique. Stances in Naihanchi are also a bit of a hot-button topic when they come up, because everyone tends to believe that there is only one proper stance, and it's the one they do :P. I will say that I have played with the stance enough in my training to have found two that work best for me, and other people have found that other variants work better for them. Personally, I'm 6'1" and 205lbs, nearing 30, with a bad knee and pronated feet, so I simply can't do some of the Naihanchi-dachi variations out there without being in a lot of pain. I did try it Motobu's way for a while, as I like his general approach, but it hurt my knee too much and I eventually gave it up. I tried doing it the way you can see Chibana Chosin do it in his younger days, which is very much the way they do it in Isshin-Ryu, with the feet strongly turned inward, but that hurt my ankles. Chris Denwood Sensei's book on Naihanchi actually gave me some interesting principles to play with, and I was able to find a happy medium between the two that is rather "springy" when needed, but also stable, and doesn't hurt. That said, I also practice Tachimura no Naihanchi, which is done in shiko-dachi--a much less stressful stance on the connective tissues on the legs and, as I discussed in a previous thread (https://www.iainabernethy.co.uk/content/kata-chinese-roots-un-chinese-ap...), likely to be the stance that was originally used for Naihanchi, given that students of Itosu as well as those who learned Naihanchi from other teachers all have examples of using shiko-dachi for the Naihanchi kata.

For your purposes, you may have to be a bit adaptable in your teaching of the kata. Naihanchi-dachi works very well for trapping the opponent's legs to break down their structure, is a solid stance to take a hit from, and is very good for generating striking power. On the other hand, shiko-dachi is more mobile, and allows you to sink and rise in the stance much more than you can from Naihanchi-dachi without losing structural integrity, as well as being gentler on the knees and ankles. For some of your students, perhaps Naihanchi-dachi will work just fine, although you may have to play with it as I did to find an approach that works for you. For them, you can emphasize the striking and leg attacks more. For some of your students, perhaps shiko-dachi will work better, and for them, you can emphasize more of the throwing and joint locking methods. There are certainly plenty of techniques that cross over just fine, regardless of the stance, but you can emphasize the differences where they exist.

As a general rule for any stance I usually suggest that the weight on the foot should be distributed equally between three points of the sole: #1 the heel, #2 the part of the ball of the foot where the big toe is, #3 the part of the ball of the foot where the small toe is. They form a triangle (of course they do), and that triangle should not tilt onto any side or corner.

That way we achieve good connectivity (as Mark suggested "as much of the surface of the sole of the foot in contact with the floor as possible") and balance. It also seems to results in the most healthy structure of the legs, hips and spine, if we allow the position of the knees, pelvis and so on to be naturally defined by the equal weight distribution of the feet in a given stance.

Example: If in Kiba-Dachi you relieve the pressure on the outside of the feet, your feet tilt to the inside. As a consequence your knees will also tilt inwards which is not very healthy. Also your pelvis will tilt back which again results in a hollow back when you try to remain upright.

It also means that the position of the knees and the tilt of the pelvis will be different, depending on wether you use Kiba-Dachi or Shiko-Dachi - and depending on whether you have knock knees or bow legs or any other individual body type.

This works for me and my students as a general rule. I'm not a doctor or physiotherapist, though. So check back with the professionals whether that makes sense anatomically.

There are some good answers above, but I think that you need to firstly have a certain level of understanding in order to fix a problem like this. My comment here definitely will not give you a full-on professional understanding (and is not intended as a replacement for professional advice), however hopefully it can point you in the right direction.

OhioMike wrote:

On a more general note does anyone have good training excerises/drills for stregthening knees joints?

There is no exercise that will strengthen your knee joints. You can, however, strengthen the muscles, tendons, and ligaments through exercise, which will increase your ability to stabilize the knee joint. If something hurts, the problem is not that the joint is weak, the problem is that you are putting unnecessary stress on the joint, which is due to your technique. Mobility may also be important if you are doing low stances, as a lack of mobility can cause you to compensate in order to get into the required position, which puts you at risk of injury. I know some styles stand quite high up for this kata, but in shotokan there is a certain prerequisite of mobility, especially if you are inflexible.

The best exercises are general exercises in my opinion. In addition to mobility work, you should try to learn basic movement patterns such as squatting. If you can do these movements in a way that is healthy for your knees, and more importantly if you understand why you are doing them a certain way, then you can apply that same skill and knowledge to stances in kata. Basically, through learning basic movement patterns, you will come across certain cues and principles that are a prerequisite for good technique in any situation, kata included. But, if your pain is caused by a knee injury, then you need to sort that out first. In that case see a professional for advice on how to rehab the injury, and make that your exercise plan for now.

The above is what I personally would do, and what I have done to sort out my own knee issues in the past. However, that does not mean that you should be doing what I suggested. You are an individual and you might require something completely different, and it is important to remember that when reading any advice given on the internet. But hopefully I gave you something to think about at the very least.

I began my Naihanchi years ago through the Wado school. I certainly found that version to be most uncomfortable, the pigeon toes stance placing stress all over the place on my legs. Also I found it was difficult to move sideways. Many years ago I left the Wado system and began my own study, and as has been mentioned by others I have tried different versions and variations over the years. The Motobu method I employ now can certainly be felt through the knees if it is done incorrectly. This is usually caused by gripping the floor, usually with the outer blades of the feet and little toe which transfers tension into the knees. Sinking you energy into the floor with relaxed tension, with a "heavy" feel is the aim - think of the principle of Muchimidi as an example. As I said earlier this is an ideal base from which to grapple and deliver devastating power at close quarters as as we know the power is transferred from floor up. This approach to the Naihanchi Dachi with its focus on connection prepares an excellent power base, whilst still allowing for fluid movement, particularly when employing the "Fujian" step and slide method. I certainly agree that everyone will think their way is best, why else would you do it, but I'm not certain that any "style" can lay claim to be the most likely original version regarding stance, there simply isn't the information out there to support that, and the Itosu link doesn't really add weight as he was known to change things frequently, hence the creation of the pigeon toes stance in the first place. Remember, Choki Motobu was all about the practical - he would not consider a stance that causes pain and inhibits movement as practical, clearly if it did cause an individual pain they need to search for an alternative or a compromise. Regards

I certainly agree that everyone will think their way is best, why else would you do it, but I'm not certain that any "style" can lay claim to be the most likely original version regarding stance, there simply isn't the information out there to support that, and the Itosu link doesn't really add weight as he was known to change things frequently [...]

There are many variations on the theme of Naihanchi/Tekki kata. With slightly different stances, hand positions, motions and so on. But they are perfectly recognisable as being the same kata. I would guess that body type and interpretation would be the main reasons why we see so many variations. People are different, and the past masters were people as well. One might have been small, the other one tall, one big, another rather skinny and so on.

The angling of the feet would be different as a result. The "correct" stance depends on the function of the stance (see Marks posts). Therefore the correct stance is the one that achives the function for you or your student. The original stance is the stance that worked for the creator of the kata. But it doesn't really matter for you today. What matters is that what you do works as intended.

It might be different for competition kata though. The fashion of the sport dictates a certain style of performance. So, if you want to convince the referees you have to mold your body according to the fashion. Does that hurt your knees? Of course it does. But if it helps you win the cup, isn't it worth it? That's for the individual athlete to decide.

When I wrote my original post, I wanted to share a specific video with you that my friend, Ryan Parker Sensei, made a few years back, but wasn't able to find it. As luck would have it, he has been going back through some of his old videos and making them public (he originally shared most of them privately), and today he made the one I was looking for public--happy coincidences!

Now, this video is specifically regarding kiko (Okinawan qigong, basically), but he shows essentially the same Naihanchi-dachi that I use for my Shorin-Ryu Naihanchi (I still use shiko-dachi for Tachimura no Naihanchi), and he goes over a bit of how to visualize to get the right structure and strength. He uses the word "ki" but it is really meant to be a visualization tool, rather than a tangible thing.

With regard to whether this works or not, he lets people throw full-power side kicks to his knees in seminars, so he's built them up pretty well. I will say that my knees both do feel more stable when I have been working a lot of Naihanchi with this type of focus, even my bad knee, although it will never be back to 100% due to the injuries it has sustained.

That brings me to the title of this post, Nihanchi-Dachi hurts my knees when I do it the way that Iain suggests

Iain does not suggest doing it a way that would hurt the knees. I know because I’m him :-)

I don’t know where you are getting that from Mike, but I can only assume you have misunderstood something I said or wrote.

The knees should not be pulled in or out, but simply follow the natural line of the feet. Because the body will be rotating, the feet should align with that rotation. That way the rotation goes with the natural bend of the knee, and not across it. Few people have the same shaped feet, and confusion can arise because different masters describe things differently (i.e. “outside edge of the feet straight”, “heels out”, “toes slightly in”, etc.), but when we look at old photos we see they are largely describing the same thing.

It should all be very natural and no one I have ever taught the stance to has complained of it hurting their knees. Quite the contrary, it is a very comfortable stance. My students know that I make it my natural standing position when queuing for long periods (as the traveling demands) precisely because it is a comfortable and natural way to stand.

When I dislocated by knee (in live throwing practise), Naihanchi was the only kata I could do for around 12 months. I could not pivot on the foot, or run with it, or take any load on it … but Naihanchi kata was fine. So even with a badly busted up knee, it was fine on my knees.

I began my Naihanchi years ago through the Wado school. I certainly found that version to be most uncomfortable.

Mark B wrote:

The Motobu method I employ now can certainly be felt through the knees if it is done incorrectly

Otsuka attributes the Wado version of the kata directly to his teacher Motobu (#). There are many “Wados” of course with each association, club and even instructor having their own variants. What I can say is the Wado I learnt was never uncomfortable and is exactly the same as Motobu’s version as I see it. So, I personally have not experienced that divide there. Any stance done incorrectly can hurt the knees of course. And while there are variations on the stance, any version we deem to be “correct” should have not busting up the knees as a requirement.

Mark B wrote:

Sinking your energy into the floor with relaxed tension, with a "heavy" feel is the aim … this is an ideal base from which to grapple and deliver devastating power at close quarters as we know the power is transferred from floor up.

Yep. That’s what I was taught from day one. Never done it any other way. We were also told that any notion of gripping the floor with the feet was incorrect. The feet were to be flat, legs relaxed and weight dropped. This permits power generation from the floor up and I fully agree with your observations. It’s the first stance I teach beginners for this exact reason.

Of course, we don’t need to be “rooted” in a specific position to generate power. The “feeling” and principles of power generation Naihanchi stance imparts is 100% applicable to free-flowing movement, but it’s a great way to isolate and refine it.

The version of Naihanchi Dachi I was taught when I practiced Wado applied a very pronounced pigeon toe stance. We also had to grip the floor with the outer blades of our feet, gripping the floor with the little toes.

I hated it!

This stance placed great stress on my ankles and knees. During sessions where the instructor was correcting the posture of other members of the group I could find myself standing in that stance for what seemed like ages. My ankles and knees used to feel terrible afterwards, I can still remember it.

One of the ways I teach the delivery of a powerful strike from my Naihanchi Dachi is to consider someone stood directly to my left and facing me. If I re-orientate myself 45 degrees to my left in Naihanchi Dachi I can deliver the thrust which appears to be 45 degrees in the form itself but with the re - orientation is now in fact aiming directly towards the opponent. I am, in actuality, in a very nice posture for actual combat, be that pre emption, receiving, grappling etc.

By applying energy in Naihanchi Dachi, using the "feeling" of sinking into the floor to generate energy and then the "feeling" of partial uprooting of the energy by visualising a small circle at the Tanden then we have a nice training drill for Naihanchi in which we can deliver an extremely powerful thrust into a pad with very little take back of the striking arm or large movements of the rest of the body.

This simple exercise is a nice one for my students to start "feeling" the concepts the Naihanchi Dachi is trying impart in one simple drill.

The student tries to maintain full contact with the floor throughout. From there I allow the slight raising of the heel of the back foot or a Fujian slide which adds more to the strike once the core concept has been learned.

The drill teaches the student what can be achieved simply by application of the core principles of the posture. The additional movement (raing the heel or sliding) are bonuses.

The version of Naihanchi Dachi I was taught when I practiced Wado applied a very pronounced pigeon toe stance. We also had to grip the floor with the outer blades of our feet, gripping the floor with the little toes.

That’s not how I was taught it during my time in Wado. Indeed, any attempt at gripping the floor was immediately condemned as wrong. In the video below, you can see Otsuka (founder of Wado) doing the kata, and his stance is largely the same as Motobu shows it in his book. His feet are certainly not pulled in in an unnatural way.

The video also mentions the fact that Otsuka primarily learnt the kata from Motobu. As I say, it has been my experience that the Wado version (as I was taught it) was kind to the knees and the same as Motobu’s stance.

I mention this because I would not want us to imply that the Wado version was generically faulty. It would seem that someone in your line has deviated from what Otsuka taught, and hence away from the “Motobu stance” you have now returned to.

Regardless, it is a good illustration of “function dictating form” when it is function that is being sought.

I obviously must of misunderstood something, although for the live of me I cannot locate what. I can only assume that I read/watched someone else do that kata out of the pigeon-toed version of the stance and misattrubuted it to you.

I obviously must of misunderstood something, although for the life of me I cannot locate what. I can only assume that I read/watched someone else do that kata out of the pigeon-toed version of the stance and misattributed it to you.

Sorry for the misquote and thanks for the clarification.

I think so. I don’t subscribe the “pigeon-toed version of the stance”.

I do have the toes slightly inward so that the knees follow the rotation of the hips. This makes it all very natural and it should not put any strain on the knees; whereas having the knees pushed inward or outward could because you’d be rotating across the knee joint as opposed to with it. That’s not something I subscribe to.

Back to the main point, I hope the clarification on the stance will help your larger students practise it safely and without injury. Bottom line, if it’s hurting the knees it is wrong.