If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Re: The Neocons vs. Chuck Hagel

Originally Posted by JB3

*taps shoulder* You should be aware that all of those things were perpetrated and advocated for by Neocons and reactionaries, not conservatives.

You're absolutely right that 'conservative' has been totally hijacked by a fundamentally non-conservative political movement which we called the neocons 5 years ago but which is still represented by the present-day GOP. No argument from me on that. You should hear Stephanie Miller (daughter of the Miller who ran with Barry Goldwater) talk about how her dad and Barry would have felt about the concept of a Constitutional Amendment to define marriage or ban gay marriage, warrantless wiretapping or the department of Homeland Security. The trouble is, conservative as it would have been understood three or four decades ago for all intents and purposes doesn't exist politically today in the United States. But far too many people who would identify more with old school conservative values vote GOP apparently for lack of knowing what else to do since the airwaves are packed with people assuring them that the Republican party represents "small government conservativism." It doesn't.

Originally Posted by JB3

Heh. Thanks! I was one, actually. Byproduct of the school I went to. Junior year I took dueling courses in American Conservatism and Progressivism, which helped me 'see the light' and see the neocons for the frauds they were.

Also JB may I apologize for my earlier rashness in misreading things you say, and welcome you to CE&P. You seem quite fair minded and reasonable.

Re: The Neocons vs. Chuck Hagel

Originally Posted by kev

Just because Wikipedia says Bill Kristol was a neoconservative doesn't make it so...he was never a Leftist, and that is the sine qua non. I think you are confusing this with the perjorative. Just because he is Jewish and was a strong advocate for the Iraq war, does not make him a neoconservative.

Being a neocon has nothing to do with having one been a leftist, any more than being a neoPlatonist has to do with once having been a cynic.

"Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

Re: The Neocons vs. Chuck Hagel

The Neocons don't like Chuck Hagel for daring to suggest that bombing Iran or trying to invade every country in the Middle East simply isn't a viable option.

But... but... Uhmerikuns is the Mastur Raice! We can do ENNYthings!

"Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

Re: The Neocons vs. Chuck Hagel

He will be confirmed - perhaps with some blood letting or perhaps not

As for his what 20 year old comments about gays ? If he has recanted or apologized or is not of the same mind now ....... that would make him in the majority of the public no ? If you took a poll on same sex marriage 20 years ago .......... It's proof we have made progress

Now if he still has those same opinions - well, IMO he should not be confirmed - not that the neocons care about that

the author of the article below suggests that a Kerry/Hagel (with Obama) triumvirate will NOT be treating Israel any differently - that it's a narrative but not accurate

Re: The Neocons vs. Chuck Hagel

For you, Kuli...that's just a real waste of a post. The neoconservatives went wrong with their fervor about about American military strength being the key to spreading democracy in the Middle East but started as an honorable group of academics like Irving Kristol(who was far less excited about "Mission Democracy" than his son William and the present prominent neoconservatives)who though originally from the left pushed back against the New Left's anti-Americanism. A history of neoconservatism shows a much more complex, often very compelling background into the neoconservatives. I would have no problem being sympathetic to a lot of the neoconservative thought had they not gone off the cliff on foreign policy with their uberhawkishness but they were not from the start the Koch brothers type villains so caricatured anong the Democratic left today, but much more richly layered.

I certainly don't want war with Iran, or anyone else... Chuck Hagel while he does serve at the president's pleasure has a very important voice at Defense. I don't begrudge his move as a Senator away from supporting military actions.... war is steeped in casualties, on both sides and psychologically as well as physically. But as just before WWII when we had the opportunity to smother the rising German threat early on if the world took a tough line on Hitler, and didn't... now we have Iran and their terrorist proxies in the Middle East, with the stakes even higher with nuclear weapons being built not only in Iran, but spreading across the region as others try to acquire the bomb in response. Is Chuck Hagel's vision that of President Obama's? Does he really think any good can come by talking to Iran, talking with Hamas and Hezbollah? Being too anxious to prevent war sure bit Neville Chamberlain in the ass, though to be fair Europe was very weary of war after the horrors of WWI. (Then again, if Germany wasn't forced to pay through the nose after WWI, many of the conditions which led Germans to see a great appeal in Hitler, who was basically a delusional, non descript former corporal and failed artist wouldn't have developed)

As currently constituted, Iran and their little attack dogs want two things. A region under ultraconservative religious rule, free of Western stylings. And most importantly, a Jew free zone for the area. Which means no Israel...no two state solution. If Obama had given vocal support to the Iranians who were protesting agains what was perceived the voter fraud in the Ahmedinijad re-election in 2009, perhaps the Iranians would have toppled their Islamist tyranny by themselves. Of course he didn't, and in the subsequent Arab Spring was one who for the most part, really did "lead from behind". What honestly caused him to think Chuck Hagel was the best choice at THIS particular time? He served in Vietnam? His independence (at least from the GOP on foreign/military matters)? Chuck Hagel's view just MIGHT be Obama's view after all... and while the neoconservative view as currently constituted seems unnervingly saber rattling and confontational, history has already shown us what happens if tyranny is matched by niceness, by accomodation without expectations of reciprocal good faith. We need more leaders with the temperament and ability to see the big picture, and not pursue policies needlessly confrontational OR accomadating. Knowing the right balance is the most difficult art in statecraft.

Re: The Neocons vs. Chuck Hagel

Originally Posted by chance1

He will be confirmed - perhaps with some blood letting or perhaps not

As for his what 20 year old comments about gays ? If he has recanted or apologized or is not of the same mind now ....... that would make him in the majority of the public no ? If you took a poll on same sex marriage 20 years ago .......... It's proof we have made progress

Now if he still has those same opinions - well, IMO he should not be confirmed - not that the neocons care about that

the author of the article below suggests that a Kerry/Hagel (with Obama) triumvirate will NOT be treating Israel any differently - that it's a narrative but not accurate

Re: The Neocons vs. Chuck Hagel

Good Post Sausy. The only thing I see that is glaring to me is that the SoD serves as the military does to act upon the policy and wishes of the Administration. So realistically you should be asking these questions about the SoS not SoD. Defense talks to other nations leaders WHEN we are working together militarily. Not to negotiate a peace or determine how much support we will provide via our military complex. Hagel will not have a direct input into that process. he will have a voice but that voice will be more concerned with reducing the size of a bloated military without sacrificing the benefits of the people who make up that department. He wont have a whole lot of time to negotiate with Iran nor would he be asked to do so.

That said it is the Obama policy to talk before acting but act they have. The sanctions on Iran are having a crippling effect. I don't know if you recall but the reason the west didn't jump in to Iran with both feet during the questionable elections was because that would have been perceived awkwardly and invalidated the very weak resistance that was in Iran. The same is true for those other situations. Syria in particular. Libya and Egypt we acted differently because of the perception of their people towards this country. We will be a much better nation and have a much better relationship with those democracies once they find their own way. Think of our own country and how we thanked France for supporting us against England. Things aren't very much different when it comes to nationalism and a peoples pride.

Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.~ Martin Luther King, Jr.

Re: The Neocons vs. Chuck Hagel

Originally Posted by xbuzzerx

You're absolutely right that 'conservative' has been totally hijacked by a fundamentally non-conservative political movement which we called the neocons 5 years ago but which is still represented by the present-day GOP. No argument from me on that. You should hear Stephanie Miller (daughter of the Miller who ran with Barry Goldwater) talk about how her dad and Barry would have felt about the concept of a Constitutional Amendment to define marriage or ban gay marriage, warrantless wiretapping or the department of Homeland Security. The trouble is, conservative as it would have been understood three or four decades ago for all intents and purposes doesn't exist politically today in the United States. But far too many people who would identify more with old school conservative values vote GOP apparently for lack of knowing what else to do since the airwaves are packed with people assuring them that the Republican party represents "small government conservativism." It doesn't.

Also JB may I apologize for my earlier rashness in misreading things you say, and welcome you to CE&P. You seem quite fair minded and reasonable.

Thanks. I try. Sometimes I am wrong, and need to be pushed to see that. If I may also add, you seem to have some of the more well-thought out and well-reasoned posts here.

Re: The Neocons vs. Chuck Hagel

Nonsense. No one has advocated invading "every country in the middle east". Who advocated bombing Iran? The hyperbole is on your side.

I have honestly tried really hard to see things from your perspective, but I realized that I can't get my head that far up my ass!

But to be fair, and since I'm not the one who actually said 'every country in the middle east' would the Neo-Nazi-Bible-Thumping-Tea Party-Fascists be okay if we "glassed" just anyone of those countries in the Middle East?

Based upon your posts in this forum, I look to you as an expert within that ideology.

If you're so inclined, please help me to understand where YOUR opposition is here.

Last edited by Centexfarmer; January 13th, 2013 at 01:28 PM.

Favorite comment quote read on Youtube: "My Laptop fell off the back of the boat, and now I have a Dell Rolling in the Deep."

Re: The Neocons vs. Chuck Hagel

Originally Posted by JayHawk

It is quite astonishing to see republicans make straw man arguments about a guy who is more like them than the President they oppose at every turn. I also found it remarkable that republicans are attempting to frame him as Anti-Jewish while none of them are Jewish and the folks who are Jewish in the Senate (Seven Democrats) will most likely vote for having Hagel at Defense.

Truly a mind fuck.

While we are openly flaming about what we dislike let me just go ahead with a GIANT who gives a fuck that Obama chose people to serve and this time around none of them have vaginas or dark skin. Because a position was diverse once does it require a diverse voice every time there after???? WTF.

Re: The Neocons vs. Chuck Hagel

For Senator Graham to make the case "THAT THIS IS AN IN YOUR FACE NOMINATION..." 'against Israel' is bullshit of the highest order.

If we could ferment congressional bullshit, we could fuel the east coast with methane.

"Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "