Countering a court order for someone else's debt

93 posts in this topic

I have been living with a girl for the past 15 months, she moved in with me. Prior to that, she had accumulated approximately €3,000 in debt with various contract defaults and whatever. I really didn't concern myself about it, I figured it was her debt, her problem, they can bother her about it, I had nothing at all to do with it.

Well, about an hour ago, some personnel from the court showed up at my door with a Vollstreckungsbescheid (or something similiar) and asked about when he'd be able to collect any payments. I flatly told him that I was her boyfriend, not her husband, her finances are something that he needed to speak to her about. He asked me about my relationship with her, and I did confirm that we were in a relationship, shared things together, and slept together. He later asked me if could come in and see if she had anything of monetary value. At first I refused, but he stated that he could easily come back with a warrant and two police officers, and it would cost her even more money. I let him in, stating it was a waste of time because all she moved in with was her clothes and some furniture, everything else was mine.

He then began writing on his pad stating that he would be confiscating MY 50" screen plasma television, my handy that I had paid €450 for not even 2 months ago, my laptop computer, and my Xbox 360. I literally got into his face and screamed that that stuff was MINE (with receipts to prove that I had purchased most of it long before she'd even moved in) and he'd better prepare for a throw-down if he seriously thought he was going to take my stuff to settle a debt of someone that I am not legally married to. He told me that it didn't matter if we were not legally married, if we were sharing living arrangements in a platonic relationship, then I could share the debt with her as well...then he proceeded to ask me if I had a bank account in Mainz and how much money I made a month. I told him it was none of his business and to get out of my apartment. He did leave, but warned me on the way out that he was applying for a warrant to seize my property as well as the money in my bank account.

Somebody has got to have some piece of advice to combat this, I should not be held responsible for somebody else's debt just because we're in a relationship. I would understand if we were married, everything we would have would be jointly owned and therefore subject to seizure...

...but if a court will not hear a property dispute between two people who were never married before or can't get family insurance plans together or whatnot, then what sense does it make to paradoxically say "But if your other half owes money to someone else, THEN everything you have is jointly owned! Hand it over, pal!" This defies anything beyond belief, I thought it was her debt, HER problem!!!

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If you can prove they are your goods with redeipts then they cannot touch you.I helped out my neighbour when a county court baliff turned up trying to collect debts that were 4 years old.I asked them to leave as cebts that are older than 3 years cannot be legally touched again.He elft muttering something about clever arses Klugscheisse and she never heard anything of it again

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He then began writing on his pad stating that he would be confiscating MY 50" screen plasma television, my handy that I had paid €450 for not even 2 months ago, my laptop computer, and my Xbox 360. I literally got into his face and screamed that that stuff was MINE (with receipts to prove that I had purchased most of it long before she'd even moved in) and he'd better prepare for a throw-down if he seriously thought he was going to take my stuff to settle a debt of someone that I am not legally married to. He told me that it didn't matter if we were not legally married, if we were sharing living arrangements in a platonic relationship, then I could share the debt with her as well...then he proceeded to ask me if I had a bank account in Mainz and how much money I made a month. I told him it was none of his business and to get out of my apartment. He did leave, but warned me on the way out that he was applying for a warrant to seize my property as well as the money in my bank account.

If you can prove that the items are in your sole ownership the bailiff cannot impound them.

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer. Please have all legal advice you receive here verified by a legal professional.

If you can prove they are your goods with redeipts then they cannot touch you.I helped out my neighbour when a county court baliff turned up trying to collect debts that were 4 years old.I asked them to leave as cebts that are older than 3 years cannot be legally touched again.He elft muttering something about clever arses Klugscheisse and she never heard anything of it again

Enforceable titles are valid for 30 years in Germany.

EDIT:

You fucking idiot.

Seriously. They have no claim against you, they have no right to entry.

The bailiff may enter the premises regardless of who is the legal tenant, the debtor's co-inhabitants must tolerate this. Any refusal entitles the bailiff to procure a search warrant. sephiroth's original refusal to permit the bailiff to enter can constitute a reason for such a warrant.

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No warrant, no entry. Period. A vampire can only come in when invited...

Any attempt to get a warrant can be met with a demand to show cause. Our Hero here is being bullied by a Gerichtsvollstrecker who knows this guy is a forinjer unaware of his rights. If the GV comes in with a warrant, he'll be accompanied by cops who will likely prevent (or at least bear witness to) any illegal action, demand, claim or otherwise made or carried out by the GV.

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Is that a chump in your book? Personally I think that is a rather harsh way of expressing it. It is forgiveable, I would have thought, to react the way the OP did in those... unusual... circumstances. The GV sounds like he is in the wrong job. Word of advice to the OP, always get the name of the idiots talking at you.

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Just someone being played for one, hence my strongly worded advice which is mostly concurrent with sarabyrd's, someone to whom I generally defer on matters legal with the exception as I explained above. But I'm more likely than many to go to the mattresses. Because if I make them go through the legal channels, chance are I know my rights and their limitations and they stop trying to intimidate. Games over.

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You do NOT need any receipts. THEY have to prove that anything is hers, otherwise it's yours, as evidenced by it being in YOUR possession in YOUR apartment.

Having sought legal advice in a similar situation myself, I don't think this part is accurate, unfortunately. As I understand it, if they attempt to impound any possessions, the burden of proof is on the owner (see also sarabyrd's info about suing for release). Receipts would therefore be very useful if it went that far.

they have no right to entry

Not true - see sarabyrd's information.

You tell him to put it in writing

Excellent advice.

You fucking idiot.

Unhelpful and probably unfair. When this happened to me, I was purely collateral damage and had never had any debt problems of my own in any country. I wouldn't even have known how the system worked in England, let alone here - I simply never needed to.

Any attempt to get a warrant can be met with a demand to show cause.

Easier said than done - and ultimately futile if there is, indeed, just cause. My experience is fully in line with sarabyrd's information: in a case like this, they can obtain a warrant if no-one lets them in. Plus if they show up with a warrant in your absence, they can enter there and then (using a locksmith) without any further notice. Either way, if they do procure a warrant, they then bill for the costs.

OP, has your girlfriend signed an affidavit (eidesstattliche Versicherung; EV) in connection with this? That would include a detailed declaration of assets and if she can swear that she has nothing of value in the flat, they may be less likely to bother attempting to impound anything there. There are downsides to EVs (and I gather not signing one when officially required to do so is a criminal offence) but it may be something to look into when seeking legal advice.

Edited to add: To the best of my knowledge (but verify this with a lawyer), they can't touch your bank account if it's solely in your name (i.e. not a joint account with your girlfriend) and you had nothing to do with the debt. That certainly held true for me.

I know how stressful this can be and I'm sorry you're having to go through it. Talk to a lawyer as soon as you can to get advice for your specific circumstances.

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Thanks everyone for your helpful information. As far as YOU go, Baddoggie, it's a genuine shame that a grown adult needs to resort to name calling and profanity to express an opinion (while simultaneously dispensing your own advice that is completely inaccurate). I strongly suggest the next time you go on your profanity laced tirades that you at least provide information that is correct and avoid making an utter jackass out of yourself again.

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There is a lot of, lets call it bullshit, beeing posted in here in it's hard to addresse everything, but here it goes:

He told me that it didn't matter if we were not legally married, if we were sharing living arrangements in a platonic relationship, then I could share the debt with her as well...

You don't share the debt. That wouldn't even be the case if you were married.

He did leave, but warned me on the way out that he was applying for a warrant to seize my property as well as the money in my bank account.

He can't seize your bank account. That can only be done by a court. He could put "a hold" on an account in order to give the creditor time to apply for a court order. However, as you are not the debtor he can't do that either.

If you can prove they are your goods with redeipts then they cannot touch you.I helped out my neighbour when a county court baliff turned up trying to collect debts that were 4 years old.I asked them to leave as cebts that are older than 3 years cannot be legally touched again.He elft muttering something about clever arses Klugscheisse and she never heard anything of it again

Yes they can, the bailiff does not have to determine ownership to seize assets. If assets are in custody and under control of the debtor he can seize them, so if those valuables are in her living space, tough shit.

That 3 years thing is missleading too. A bailiff does not appear out of thin air. He has a court order/a titel to enforce. Those are on a 30 years statue of limitation and even those 30 years start over every time the debtor tries to legally enforce them.

...they have no right to entry.

Yes they have and they can enforce that right through a warrant.

You do NOT need any receipts. THEY have to prove that anything is hers, otherwise it's yours, as evidenced by it being in YOUR possession in YOUR apartment.

No they don't. He has to prove that he is the owner. As posted above, the bailiff does not have to determine ownership, "Gewahrsam" is enough (§808 ZPO). It's a joint apartment, she is living there as well, so she has custody and control over those things. If the bailiff seizes his stuff, he has to file a claim under § 771 ZPO (Drittwiderspruchsklage). If it comes to that, he should talk to the creditor first though.

Any attempt to get a warrant can be met with a demand to show cause. Our Hero here is being bullied by a Gerichtsvollstrecker who knows this guy is a forinjer unaware of his rights. If the GV comes in with a warrant, he'll be accompanied by cops who will likely prevent (or at least bear witness to) any illegal action, demand, claim or otherwise made or carried out by the GV.

If she is living there, getting the warrant is a formality. The cops, if he even brings them, won't do shit. They are there to help him getting into the apartment and that's it. They are not trained in civil legal matters and have no say as to what the bailiff can or can not seize anyway.

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I realize that this isn't in relation to your original question, but where exactly does your girlfriend stand in all of this? Does she know that you are potentially in the shit because of her? Why didn't she speak to the bailiff herself and try to come to some payment agreement?

I don't mean that to come across as critical of her; however, I would be pretty embarrassed if I were in her position, and would certainly try to do what I could to ensure that my partner wasn't in the position that you are right now. Surely she should be trying to sort this mess - not you.

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There is a lot of, lets call it bullshit, beeing posted in here in it's hard to addresse everything, but here it goes:

You don't share the debt. That wouldn't even be the case if you were married.

He can't seize your bank account. That can only be done by a court. He could put "a hold" on an account in order to give the creditor time to apply for a court order. However, as you are not the debtor he can't do that either.

Yes they can, the bailiff does not have to determine ownership to seize assets. If assets are in custody and under control of the debtor he can seize them, so if those valuables are in her living space, tough shit.

That 3 years thing is missleading too. A bailiff does not appear out of thin air. He has a court order/a titel to enforce. Those are on a 30 years statue of limitation and even those 30 years start over every time the debtor tries to legally enforce them.

Yes they have and they can enforce that right through a warrant.

No they don't. He has to prove that he is the owner. As posted above, the bailiff does not have to determine ownership, "Gewahrsam" is enough (§808 ZPO). It's a joint apartment, she is living there as well, so she has custody and control over those things. If the bailiff seizes his stuff, he has to file a claim under § 771 ZPO (Drittwiderspruchsklage). If it comes to that, he should talk to the creditor first though.

If she is living there, getting the warrant is a formality. The cops, if he even brings them, won't do shit. They are there to help him getting into the apartment and that's it. They are not trained in civil legal matters and have no say as to what the bailiff can or can not seize anyway.

Seriously, if the gerichtsvollzieher's job is to collect the debt and dispense it to those who were owed, then why the hell was he in my apartment spinning bullshit to get the money whether it came from my girlfriend or myself??? What's in it for him? I would think that the court would relay the message back to the plaintiff that they were unable to collect any funds or anything of monetary value. What is with the overzealousness of the court personnel? Does he gain a percentage of anything seized and auctioned, or any cash collected?

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The bailiff is simply a man or woman with a job, largely commission based, paid by results. He'll say anything to get goods or money to the value of the claim so he can get his commission and let a court subsequently sort out the mess. Very little of anything he says needs to stand up in court, especially if there is no witness to him saying it, so if he can frighten you into handing over what he wants then his job is largely done.

Bailiffs are often nasty little shits, but it's a nasty shit job too, so if the cap fits...

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Seriously, if the gerichtsvollzieher's job is to collect the debt and dispense it to those who were owed, then why the hell was he in my apartment spinning bullshit to get the money whether it came from my girlfriend or myself??? What's in it for him? I would think that the court would relay the message back to the plaintiff that they were unable to collect any funds or anything of monetary value. What is with the overzealousness of the court personnel? Does he gain a percentage of anything seized and auctioned, or any cash collected?

The problem started when you admited that the two of you were living together...as some have tried to explain to you. because from that point onwards, under German laws, everything in the apartment can be considered by law to be hers until you prove the contrary (with bills, receipts and all). It is what German law calls "Umkehr der Beweispflicht", i..e because it is impossible for third parties to prove what belongs to her, you or she have to prove what belongs to her and what to you. Sorry that you have been caught in this situation, but that's how it is in Germany.

She should have long ago worked out a settlement, i.e. offer an installment plan to pay off the debts which are not even too high if the amount you stated is correct. hell, everyone can take up some extra jobs at nightshifts and pay of 3k EUR in a year or so easily. Not having done anything along this line does not exactly she a good light on her...nor that she did not check herself what would happen to your shared apartment when the bailiff comes eventually, something that should have been asked here or other places on the internet beforehand. because if you had know, you could, for instance, have given her a sub-lease for just one tiny room and then the bailiff would only have been able to check that particular rooms at its contents.

So, yes, he tried to scare you, take things that perhaps even he knew upfront were not hers..but that is his job, to get as much as is possible to satisfy the people she ownes money to. And she did buy things, spend the money, borrowed it and all, right? So there are people and companies out there who have a fair and right claim to that money, right?

Therefore, blame her but not the bailiff who did most of the things corrctly and then went into a bit of a grey zone legally, but that is not really his fault or problem.

Cheerio

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To get a warrant (§ 758a ZPO) for entering the apartment is just a formality for the bailiff.

It does get more difficult when it comes to the question which objects he may claim. There is an assumption in law (§§ 1362 BGB, 739 ZPO) that objects that are found in the joint apartment of married spouses or those who live as partners according to the Lebenspartnerschaftsgesetz do belong to the debtor. However, this assumption is not valid for those who just live together. The Bundesgerichtshof has explicitly rejected the extension of the assumption of ownership according to § 1362 BGB to unmarried couples. The bailiff is therefore not entitled to assume that objects found in the OP's flat belong to the OP's girlfriend just because she happens to live there at the moment, particularly so as the OP has lived there alone until recently.

Yet, once the bailiff has claimed the things (rightly or wrongly) the OP will have the hassle and expense to get them back. I therefore suggest that he consults a lawyer to prevent any execution of titles against his property in the first place.

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He gets paid by the creditor, who adds the costs to the original claim.

I would think that the court would relay the message back to the plaintiff that they were unable to collect any funds or anything of monetary value.

The court stopped having anything to do with this once the writ was issued (until a third party debtor takes action based on the enforcement). The court most of all does not give a highly colored damn if any funds could be collected.

What is with the overzealousness of the court personnel?

Bailiffs are not court personnel. They are appointed by the state and work on their own in their allocated precincts. Creditors request bailiffs to visit debtors in an attempt to raise funds, sometimes with very detailed instructions such as "Accost the debtor on Tuesday morning at 9:30 am in ABC-street no. 43a, 2nd floor, when he receives a weekly cash payment from a tenant who does not have a bank account. He may be driving his 1953 roadster, license plate DE-BT 999, which he only uses when the sun is shining and the temperature does not exceed 68°F".

Does he gain a percentage of anything seized and auctioned, or any cash collected?

No, see above.

Some are more aggressive than others but most of them are perfectly happy to inform the creditor that no items of value in ownership of the debtor could be located. File closed, next. There is no shortage of execution orders.

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"I really didn't concern myself about it, I figured it was her debt, her problem, they can bother her about it, I had nothing at all to do with it."

"I thought it was her debt, HER problem!!!"

So, you're living with a girl but you have "nothing at all" to do with her problems? Not much love there...

Your girlfriend is obviously not perfect, having collected these debts, but I think your behavior is very immature. You should really help her to sort this out, e.g. by fixing a payment plan.

What's next? She gets hit by a car because she didn't see the red light - her fault, her problem, you don't care?

If you don't care about her, maybe you should break the relationship? If you want her to stay you should help her to fix this NOW. It won't get better by itself and she is obviously not capable of fixing it.

The bailiff is just a symptom...

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I don't really find that fair. The way I understood it was the OP had probably assumed that since his girlfriend is an adult that she was taking care of her own debts as should be expected. Just because he is her boyfriend and they are living together doesn't mean he automatically assumes responsibility for her financial mess. The OP hasn't said if his girlfriend even said she was sorting this out or not - perhaps she lied to him. Either way, I would be pissed if I had the bailiff at my door threatening to take away MY stuff that I worked hard to pay for. IMO it has nothing to do with love, and I don't think it's right to judge the OP before knowing exactly where his girlfriend stands in all of this.

There is only so much help one can give - the rest is up to the girlfriend as it is HER mess to sort out. Or do you think he should just pay the lot off for her to prove that it's true love?