Analysis: Why MGTOW attracts so many scammers and sleazebags

Hey, everybody. It’s been a while since I did a “manosphere” post, but I had some conversations with a couple folks a little while ago and turned them into an essay, x-posted to some places on Reddit. I rather like it, so here you go:

A little while ago I was talking to someone about that MGTOW stuff, and he asked, “what’s wrong with MGTOW? It’s just men not getting married, right? Why do you care so much if guys want to remain single?” It’s a typical response from people who’ve only heard of that stuff–a lot of guys haven’t seen the weirdness most of us have experienced, so they tend to think MGTOW and associated scenes are better than they actually are.

My response was this: “There’s absolutely nothing wrong with avoiding dating and relationships and all that. I’m happy being single and I avoid relationships too. The problem with MGTOW is that it piles up a ton of bullshit on top of what should be a pretty cool idea.”

My guy hadn’t heard any of that before and asked me to tell him about it. I did, and he quickly saw my point. You’ve probably heard of some of this stuff too: Nacho Vidal blowing up the old MGTOW forums (which people donated to), “Red Pill Coin” turning out to be a scam, MGTOWs accusing one another of being pedophiles, Barbarosssaaa and Niko Choski taking crap from their own fans, and especially Niko leaving the MGTOW scene because of another guy, CS MGTOW, getting straight-up doxxed by some kook (Messenger or something) who actually got to his phone. And that’s not even going into the guys I’ve seen threatening violence on MGTOW websites, the creepy-ass fetishists, all that nonsense. Yeah, after hearing about that, the fellow I was talking to saw my point about MGTOW.

But that got me thinking, why is it that MGTOW attracts all sorts of weird bad actors and their attendant ridiculous drama? We’ve all talked about how dumb it is for people “going their own way” to hate on women 24/7. But that got me thinking that there are a couple of other reasons MGTOW is *particularly* susceptible to both dysfunctional ideological extremism *and* basic incessant backstabbing among its members.

It seems to me a lot of weird drama and cult nonsense starts out with a good idea–in this case, “focus on yourself, it’s OK to be single, and base your self-worth on things other than external validation.” It’s when people start trying to make themselves “leaders” and make money off of it that it gets cancerous. Wouldn’t it be an easy way to scam people? When some guy starts saying, “Hey, men! You need to think for yourself and make your own value! That’s why you need to donate to my forums and buy my books!” isn’t that suspicious? When stuff like that starts to happen, you have self-appointed gurus more interested in self-aggrandizement and making money instead of actually going their own way.

This is why MGTOWs tend to cultivate resentment towards women and “feminism” instead of simple detachment and actually going one’s own way. If a guy actually DOES go his own way and stops caring about women–i.e, he doesn’t even hate them at all, just concentrates on his own interests and happiness–why would he donate to some MGTOW youtuber or buy MGTOW books? He’d spend his time and money on things he actually enjoys instead of some rando’s Patreon or another self-published “Why Women Suck” screed on Amazon. Thus, many MGTOWs have a vested financial interest in ensuring men don’t *actually* go their own way.

It’s also why there’s so much doxxing and backbiting. Since many MGTOWs are in it for themselves and just want to take advantage of people, it’s no surprise that many prominent MGTOWs turn out to be phonies and scumbags. Isn’t it an easy way to scam people? When some guy starts saying, “Hey, men! You need to think for yourself and make your own value! That’s why you need to donate to my forums and buy my books!” isn’t that suspicious? When stuff like that starts to happen, you have self-appointed gurus more interested in self-aggrandizement and making money instead of actually going their own way. And these guys have financial incentives to push out other MGTOW content creators–the more people that donate to some other guy’s Patreon, the less they’ll have to give to yours. Thus, we see the stupid e-beefs and constant internecine conflict among those people.

I also think there are a couple of reasons MGTOW types are particularly vulnerable to scams and doxxing. First, say someone’s been divorced, and they go on MGTOW forums to talk about it–the personal information they reveal can help scammers and other types dox them and stuff like that. Meanwhile, for forums/subreddits on other topics, like videogame forums or other entertainment or women-unrelated subreddits in general, people don’t necessarily talk about their personal lives or relationships as much or as openly. Thus, while it’s always wise to be cautious, forums on just about any topic other than one’s bad experiences with women will have fewer people talking about their intimate lives, which means it’s usually harder for scammers to get a hold of incriminating or revealing info.

The other thing is the fact that so many guys are attracted to MGTOW when they’re angry after being burned by a relationship. When somebody’s pissed off and angry, they can’t think straight, which makes them a much easier mark for opportunists. Some youtube scam artist can say, “Hey, don’t relationships suck? Aren’t you angry? I know just how you feel, brother!” and work up a rapport with pissed-off guys, then once he’s won their trust, start asking them for more and more–“Hey, subscribe to my channel! Then, help me take down this other guy’s channel! Then, buy my book/pay for my Red Pill Coins or whatever!” By the time the unfortunate audience has moved out of the anger phase and realized they haven’t actually gained anything, the scammer already has their money.

So, conclusion? There are some pretty significant and inherent structural reasons MGTOW in general has been and probably will be mired in drama, hatred, and other bullshit. Any sensible man, including and especially happily single ones, would do well to avoid that scene. But most of us here probably knew that, eh? :p

mgtow attracts loser males who bitch about women as being the the reason for all their problems. Those who deride (look it up) mgtows are real men who hate the idea of being the same sex as wimpy, whining mgtows.

Hey, this article brings up some great points!
In regards to the scams, while there are only like 2 I can think of at the top of my head (red pill coin and MGTOW101 offering Viagra), both of them were called out by the substantial amount of MGTOWs who are actually going their own way. MGTOW is just as, if not less likely to fall for scams as other groups. This is evidenced by the fact that everyone knows about the “Nigerian prince” scam, but there has yet to be a scam like that targeted at MGTOWs.
And about “going their own way but hating women 24/7:” Going our own way doesn’t mean leaving you guys alone. It means finding what gives your life meaning, without other people’s help. That’s why it’s not a contradiction to “go your own way” and criticise society (and women, but to be fair every MGTOW I know of says the same things about men too, just that society favours women as of now).
You are absolutely correct in your statement that MGTOW is just being single and avoiding marriage/long-term relationships, but you have to understand that the MGTOW forums are people talking about things they can’t talk about in wider society. The forum isn’t completely about “going your own way,” it’s the prerequisite to joining. People on MGTOW forums are assumed to already be “going their own way” and just talk about women/society/whatever just like a fireman might talk about football. It’s his hobby.

In regards to the scams, while there are only like 2 I can think of at the top of my head (red pill coin and MGTOW101 offering Viagra), both of them were called out by the substantial amount of MGTOWs who are actually going their own way.

Oh, there are a few others I can think of. I mentioned Nacho taking money for the old MGTOW forums and then blowing them up (though to be fair, I imagine he put up with way more annoyance than most would from his own clientele), there’s also Mayor of MGTOWN asking for money for homeless outreach and then disappearing after a couple of videos (though whether that was an intentional scam or just incompetence is debatable), and so on, and so forth. Bar Bar’s also disappeared and hasn’t produced the book he got patreonbux for, though again, if he’s just sick of the MGTOW community I can’t blame him.

That’s why it’s not a contradiction to “go your own way” and criticise society

Yeah, it’s not a contradiction, but it’s still kind of obnoxious and sort of wasteful if you think about it. In the most technical sense, dedicating your life to grousing about women and society can be something you chose on your own, but it’s a laughably bad choice. If a guy decides to find his own meaning and abandon society in order to start a monastery or make great discoveries (like St. Benedict or Tesla or a bunch of similar luminaries), it’s natural to admire him. If a guy decides to find his own meaning and abandon society in order to…live in a shack eating his own excrement, that’s considerably less laudable. You can see how this applies to MGTOWs.

People on MGTOW forums are assumed to already be “going their own way” and just talk about women/society/whatever just like a fireman might talk about football. It’s his hobby.

Well, again, it seems like a remarkably awful hobby. Just review what we’ve discussed above–the multiple scams (Redpill coin, “mgtow viagra,” people donating to patreons and getting nothing, etc.), the constant MGTOW beefs and doxxing I mentioned in my original essay, and so on, and so forth. I’ve hung around various hobby communities in my time and it’s hard to be as utterly toxic as MGTOW. I’ve seen instances of scams and even doxxing on occasion, but not many as bad as to drive out their own primary content creators, the way CS MGTOW and Niko Choski (among others) had to leave the “community.”

I hate to break it to you, but there’s something particularly dysfunctional about MGTOW. You, you’re young, going by your profile. I really do hope you leave that scene behind you before you get involved with that kind of drama. Believe me, it ain’t worth it, and I was pretty lucky, I was just a lurker rather than a blogger or poster on the communities.

For once, I’ve finally found someone to debate without the ad homonym attacks, so for that I’m grateful, but I have to disagree.

About Nacho and the MGTOw forums, I don’t associate with either of those (moreso Nacho), so I can’t really comment on that as I’m not aware of the circumstances.

In regards to Barbarossa, he’s working on other things outside of YouTube, his book is planned for a release next year, or if he can finish it while working for his clients in his “real job.” To my knowledge, he still uses Twitter unless he got kicked for wrong-think.

The mayor of MGTOWN runs an LA homeless shelter, stating that his work got beefed up after he started devoting himself more to a newfound purpose of helping homeless people. He didn’t take money and scam people. There are no MGTOWs that I know of that see him as a scammer.

“It’s still wasteful and obnoxious”

Says you. In the opinion of MGTOWs, nobody WANTS society to collapse, and if nobody points out society’s problems, no matter how much it hurts, it WILL collapse. See Sweden for example. Men aren’t “dedicating their lives” to hating women and society, they are spending free time talking about things they can see for themselves, with other people who won’t judge them as misogynists for what they think.

You don’t have to abandon society and start a monastery to find your own meaning, what if your meaning is to become a lawyer? You have to talk to clients, kind of the opposite of a monastery. Not to mention, that would be pretty lonely…
I can’t see how living in a monastery or leaving society applies to MGTOWs. Also, the excrement example is probably exactly what Tesla’s family thought of him until he became famous for his contributions. That’s the difference between your two examples. They’re the same thing, just from an outsider’s perspective.

“Well, again, it seems like a remarkably awful hobby.”

And that’s your opinion. Personally I think it’s a better hobby than gambling your money away, for example, because with MGTOW at least there’s a chance someone might listen and you’ll save their life.

The MGTOW “beefs” aren’t from MGTOWs, they’re from people who are MGTOW. There are people within a movement/part of a philosophy who can disagree. That’s the beauty of MGTOW. We like disagreement. The doxxing is shit, but that’s not something inherent in the MGTOW community, as to my knowledge no MGTOWs dox. If your example is Misandry Today (DDJ), he and the other people accused of doxxing were “exonerated” by the YouTube viewers.

Your opinion that MGTOW is toxic relies on the belief that their opinions are misinformed, which is why I and every other MGTOW asks for you to show us HOW we’re misinformed, so that we can have correct information.

And one other thing. While I appreciate your warning in good faith about associating with MGTOW, it really doesn’t make sense. If there is one MGTOW idiot, that doesn’t mean that all MGTOWs are idiots. MGTOWs are individuals, not groups of rabid fans. Just because I’m MGTOW doesn’t mean I like MGTOW content creators. For example, I think MGTOW101 is/was shit and didn’t watch him, and I think sandman is boring, even though they’re both MGTOW like me.

I wrote several posts about a sort of beginner’s guide to MGTOW and think you maybe should have read them, because you’d realise that MGTOW is like Bitcoin. It’s decentralised.

his book is planned for a release next year, or if he can finish it while working for his clients in his “real job.”

I guess we’ll have to see. Here’s hoping his “plans” don’t get pushed back again.

The mayor of MGTOWN runs an LA homeless shelter, stating that his work got beefed up after he started devoting himself more to a newfound purpose of helping homeless people. He didn’t take money and scam people. There are no MGTOWs that I know of that see him as a scammer.

Also, the excrement example is probably exactly what Tesla’s family thought of him until he became famous for his contributions.

They would have been right if it turned out his scientific theories had been wrong and he actually was a kook. I suppose it’s possible you MGTOWs might take the same trajectory–being proven right in the end after everyone called you cranks at first–but boy howdy, do I doubt it. It actually didn’t take too long for Tesla to prove himself after getting his first job. MGTOW as a movement (not just “happy bachelorhood”) been around since the early 00s and not done much. But until that day comes, well, I think it’s fair for me to be less than impressed with the method you guys are taking to “go your own way.” I much prefer others.

it’s a better hobby than gambling your money away, for example, because with MGTOW at least there’s a chance someone might listen and you’ll save their life.

Yeah, I guess so. Then again, as we’ve been discussing, with MGTOW there’s always the chance someone will doxx you or some shit, so it’s a double-edged sword (If you didn’t read the essay you’re commenting on, I referred to what CS MGTOW and Niko Choski said about getting doxxed by other members of the community). I say find a hobby with the benefits and not the risks. Get into woodworking instead of MGTOW. Best-case scenario you find something you love that keeps you away from risking your life or despair or whatever, worst-case scenario you’ve wasted some time. A better deal than MGTOW I’d say.

If there is one MGTOW idiot, that doesn’t mean that all MGTOWs are idiots.

No, it just means more MGTOWs than not are psychos and fools. If you’ve found something good in the ideology, you can take it and make use of it without calling yourself one of them or otherwise attaching yourself to it. As the old saying goes, what do you call a glass of fine wine with a drop of sewage in it? Sewage. I simply see no point in associating with a group of individuals who are mostly idiots even if there’s no necessary reason they’re all idiots.

I wrote several posts about a sort of beginner’s guide to MGTOW and think you maybe should have read them, because you’d realise that MGTOW is like Bitcoin. It’s decentralised.

Lmao. Yeah, I hate to sound mean, but I actually checked out your blog a while ago. Your posts on videogames were a little amusing, the sort of thing I post and like myself, but aside from that your MGTOW posts (making the bulk of your blog) were–bluntly stated–vacuous and boring. All of your points–“I’m just realistic about women, I don’t hate them! MGTOW is just walking away, nothing more, nothing else! Men have always been oppressed, not women! Yada yada yada”–have been regurgitated from Barbarossaaa or Stardusk or Sandman or TFM or any other MGTOW a thousand times before. There’s absolutely nothing there I haven’t read repeatedly. Trust me, I know more than enough about your “decentralised” ideology. Plenty of dumb nonsense is “decentralised.” Doesn’t mean any of the tiny splinter factions such as the People’s Front of Judea and the Judean People’s Front are any less dumb.

And now you’re going to ask me,

why I and every other MGTOW asks for you to show us HOW we’re misinformed, so that we can have correct information.

Lol, no. Look, again, no offense, but bluntly stated–there’s no point. From what I’ve gathered from the posts on your blog, you’re quite similar to most MGTOWs I’ve come across, which is to say you’re an ideologue who’s not half as smart as he thinks he is, not a tenth as enlightened as he thinks he is, and not a hundredth as “open-minded” as he thinks he is. What you take to be iconoclastic dismissal of “society’s lies!!!” is actually just blind, petty grievance. And yeah, I know, you’re also going to say this is “ad hominem” and so on. Here’s the thing, though–I don’t say any of this to insult you, I say it to explain why “showing you how you’re misinformed” is a waste of time, because you’re not asking in good faith and no evidence I give you will convince you. Again, looking through your blog, there are at least half a dozen points in which your knowledge of the relevant facts is laughably, absolutely laughably, shallow and incorrect–Ursuline Academy is a high school, not a “university,” to take but one example–but if I took the time to explain them all, you’d just dismiss it as “feminist propaganda” or say it doesn’t count due to some rationalization you came up with. Simply put, you’re determined to believe in the MGTOW dogma of male oppression, female perfidy, and so on, and no “information” I could give you will change that.

Yet again, you might say this is ad hominem, but it really isn’t–I used to be somewhat similar a few years ago. I wish there was a way to speed up the process, but in your case, given our different life experiences, I think time is the only way to cure you, if you can indeed be cured. If you really want my “critique” of MGTOW, just keep hanging around that community and see how many of its members seem to be cool and well-adjusted as opposed to messed up and trashy, like the MGTOW101 guy you mentioned. You’ll see what I mean eventually.

Until then, again, to be blunt, I’ve already given you, a random kid (no offense, but you’re admittedly younger than I am) a very generous donation of time. This will be all I’ll say on the matter–time to get back to playing Stellaris, possibly catching up on this week’s anime, and then do some writing on the project I’m working on (not gonna spoil what it is yet, but you can get an idea of it by looking at my hefty entries under the philosophy tag). The latter bit can be a good guide as to what Going One’s Own Way ought to look like, by the by.

That’s the point. Starve the system by going MGTOW because MRAs have tried to change it since feminism, and they haven’t done anything. You don’t have to be impressed with methods, it’s not to impress you. They’re practical methods for living daily life as safe as possible.

“with MGTOW there’s always the chance someone will doxx you or some shit”

Then don’t do things that get you doxxed. Most doxxing is public information anyway, just look for Facebook profiles linked to MGTOW accounts and bam, you’ve just doxxed someone. Doxxing isn’t endemic to MGTOWs specifically. Considering you haven’t provided another example to counter my own claim, I’m going to stand by what I said.

“I say find a hobby with the benefits and not the risks. Get into woodworking”

You can be MGTOW and do woodworking at the same time, MGTOW is just a philosophy not a way of life (although some people may begin to differ). Your example of what to do instead of MGTOW is what MGTOWs do already.

“It just means more MGTOWs are psychos and fools.”

Citations for claims bro, I can’t prove a negative if I say “no they aren’t” because most of the MGTOWs don’t publicise their existence.

“All of your points… Regurgitated from (MGTOW youtubers) a thousand times before.”

Firstly, I never said men have always been oppressed, I just said women weren’t. Ad homonyms are fine, but please don’t misrepresent what someone says because you are aggravated at the fact that you are losing an intellectual debate.

In regards to my points,

When I said MGTOW is just walking away, I wasn’t lying. My misogynistic views are mine, not MGTOW’s. You can be a feminist MGTOW if that’s you’re thing (like this people who support feminism so much they don’t want to “oppress” the girl they love by advocating for a “patriarchal relationship” such as marriage).

When you said my points were regurgitated: Thank you! I appreciate the fact that my own conclusions were similar to people that have been in the game for much longer than I. It’s especially a vompliment because, as I stated, I don’t watch sandman, and I actually don’t watch stardusk or Barbarossa (as seen on my YouTube subscription list).

Bruh, I ain’t no idealogue, I’m diagnosed autistic (hence the name Nerdy MGTOW) I legit just looked at stuff from a cost/benefit view (like investors do) and can see that men have more risks than rewards, and the rewards aren’t worth as much as the risks in terms of what you’d gain vs what you’d lose. Even if I didn’t call myself MGTOW, I’d still live the same lifestyle but call it something else (like “confirmed batchelor”).

Your view of hurt misgrievance certainly isn’t wrong for a majority, maybe all but one MGTOW at some point in their life, but that’s what MGTOWs call the “red-pill rage.” When you first learn about how much life sucks, you’re understandably angry, so you lash out angrily at “the system.” I, and many other MGTOWs moved past that rage and into a calm analysis of whether the angry claims were true, and for the most part they are. Because there’s EVIDENCE they’re true.

About what I was wrong about: thanks! I didn’t know that, so I’ll fix my incorrect facts right away. I don’t live in the US, nor am I a woman so I appreciate that.

“You’d dismiss it as “feminist propaganda”” I didn’t, but I can see you’re a feminist judging by how you’re angry I wasn’t flipped on to your side after just one response, and you refuse to explain why your opponents are wrong(except I want men and women to be happy by siding with science and facts but feminists don’t (google “women are now the unhappiest they’ve ever been”)), and until you do, your opponents will just stick with what they know because you won’t give them more stuff to know. The truth will always win, so if the truth is on your side just share it. It’ll win.

I never said women were evil, nor did I say there was a “grand conspiracy to take out men” I simply said what’s happening now, not how we got here.

“Time is the only way to cure you, if you can indeed be cured.”

Who judges who’s wrong and who’s right? The truth does. I could say you’d be cured in time, and my statement holds the same weight as yours unless there’s truth backing my claims, or yours. In my view I’m already cured. Just because I’m not the same as you doesn’t mean I’m defective. It just means I’m different. Ever heard of “diversity?”

I appreciate your comments about me and my personal life, even if you are angry at the fact that I’m right.

“You, a random kid”

Last jab at your expense, I swear:
Look at who’s losing their temper and tell me who the kid is.

Remarkably poor showing, kiddo. Like I said, I’m too busy to offer much more of my time, especially to someone as irrational as you seem to be. But like I also said, I used to be similar when I was younger. Going off that, if you want more “dialogue” or whatever, come back in a year or two. I’d be interested in seeing if you go through the same disillusionment with this red-pill stuff I did. But for now, I think speaking with you is a waste of my time.

[…] described in previous entries (this one on trolling, and several I’ve made on the dumbness of manosphere ideology). I’m in a much, much healthier place, and instead of angry and resentful, bashing my head […]