I'll share an example that comes to mind: in a clinch with your opponent, doing a takedown then submission, where I might start with a rear leg reap (osoto gari). My opponent is strong and well-balanced, I have to have a really good kuzhushi to throw him; so I might add a strong thumb to the side of the neck while holding the lapel or release the top grip and drive two fingers into the soft flesh at the bottom of the throat - both which unbalance the opponent.

Now with the opponent on the ground, I'll drop all my weight on his short ribs through my knee, or more probably, execute a stomp (fumikomi) to his temple. Then while transitioning to a seated arm bar, he might give resistance, so I drop the back of my knee or calf of the opponent's mouth to distract and reduce available air. Now at the end in full armbar, I might invert the hand (palm down), as we're told this has a chance to tear more tendons/cartilage than the standard palm up.

Does anyone else train with these tweaked techniques? This is only a flavour of a session and next we might practise shihonage in a really well-formed and elegant way (influence from aikido and judo), just to balance out the raw stuff. Thoughts?

I'll simply chime in with BJMills' comments.

This sequence of yours comes across as something you practise against a dummy (or a partner being, basically, a dummy).

Here's an interesting thought-experiment-with-benefits: try finding someone who is actually trained and experienced in an "alive" style (fully-resisting sparring/rolling, zero compliance, open ruleset) and trying it out.

The difference between what may be effective in theory, and what works in an actual encounter, will likely become very clear to you as a result.

The difference between what may be effective in theory, and what works in an actual encounter, will likely become very clear to you as a result.

The quintessential Bullshido argument. As true today as it ever was.

Take it from someone that has a BB in all things "Goshin/Compliant/Street" Jiu Jiitsu, the techniques that your instructor claims to be "debilitating" or "incapacitating" will merely be "irritating" to any attacker that's not a complete *****.

I really wish you guys who practice what you call "JJJ" would stop calling it that, unless it's a recognized JAPANESE Koryu budo, bujutsu, part of a Sogo Bujutsu, or genadai art of either -jutsu or -do persuasion.

Also, the old thumb in the neck thing won't even faze an adrenalized opponent. Good kuzushi comes from recognizing the correct opportunity or opening (debana) for a given "technique".

And temple stomping someone who is already on the ground then doing an armbar? That's very rarely self defense, it's overkill and possibly some form of manslaughter/murder...that depends on circumstances, obviously.

And Juji Gatame is best done with the thumb of opponents hand up (away from uke front)...if you studied Judo or BJJ you would know that.

I won't argue that atemi isn't useful for creating an opening for a throw or "takedown", but unless you are very good at throwing, atemi (as a method of kuzushi) won't do you much good anyway.

One thing you find out when you go full speed and full resistance, even without atemi, is that a adrenalized resisting opponent can take a lot of dings, pokes, scratches, etc and keep on going.

Falling for Judo since 1980

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I really wish you guys who practice what you call "JJJ" would stop calling it that, unless it's a recognized JAPANESE Koryu budo, bujutsu, part of a Sogo Bujutsu, or genadai art of either -jutsu or -do persuasion.

I will now refer to it as WBJJ (White Boy Ju Jitsu). Does that work?

Just kidding... I think most practitioners are just looking for a way to distinguish it from BJJ, which is understandable. There are significant differences between the two.

I've got experience in Daito-Ryu Aikijujitsu (Kodokai if you want to get very specific) and none of those guys care that my WBJJ instructor calls our art Japanese Jujitsu.

When I tell a BJJ guy that I do "Ju Jitsu", they usually respond with "Yeah, but it's not real JJ....it's... JAPANESE!"

I'd just like to confirm what's already been said many times in this thread also applies to most cities I've visited in Canada: What's labeled as traditional Japanese Jiu-Jitsu / Jujutsu / Ju-Jitsu is often neither traditional nor is it Japanese.

In most cases across Canada, what's being taught is the Can-Ryu system or an off-shoot of the Can-Ryu system. The Can-Ryu system is a hybrid system loosely based on elements of Kawaishi Jiu-Jitsu, Kodokan Judo, Chito-Ryu Karate and a variety of police/military RBSD systems.

While many of these schools now cater to people who are interested in MMA and grappling / submission fighting, their core focus and approach is street / reality-based self-defense.

And while it's a recent invention (relatively speaking) that was developed in Canada, the fact that Can-Ryu programs and schools frame everything within a context inspired by traditional Japanese martial arts (gis, belts, bowing, Japanese terminology, etc.) is probably why people refer to it as TJJJ.

I think that things are going to inevitably get even messier because of the threatened status of Olympic wrestling and the fact that so many wrestling organizations (EX: FILA) organize and standardize grappling events; we're talking about no-gi *AND* gi here.

Let that sink in for a moment . . . the wrestling establishment, much of which does not have formal links with or lineage in the Japanese martial arts, is organizing events in which the participants will essentially be engaging in jiu-jitsu while wearing gi tops and unranked gi belts.

It's certainly not unheard of but you have to wonder if "jiu-jitsu" will really mean anything after a certain point.