I saw this http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/24224.html and it got me wondering how far back Savage Worlds might be. My gut says that its probably ranked a few back from 5th place but given the massive sales of a leaders, is our favorite Fast! Furious! Fun! system worth ranking?

Just curious - hope you all are well. I missed seeing everyone (you too Andy) at CotC this year - maybe next year._________________Chris in Atlanta
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"Were I not wed, I would take you in a manly fashion."
"Because I'm pretty?"
"Because you're pretty."

I saw this http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/24224.html and it got me wondering how far back Savage Worlds might be. My gut says that its probably ranked a few back from 5th place but given the massive sales of a leaders, is our favorite Fast! Furious! Fun! system worth ranking?

Ranking by what criteria? Sales numbers or copies of the core rules sold?

Just saying, if we sold 3x as many copies of our $10 core rulebook than someone else's $40 rules, we'd still be ranked behind them in sales.

Even then, ICv2's charts "are based on interviews with retailers, distributors, and manufacturers." They don't contact everyone when they do that, and that system isn't really a basis for 100% accuracy as we've seen in the past.

Since we don't really have an accurate basis to judge where those other games are as we aren't privy to ICv2's sources, it's not really possible to say where we are in comparison to them based off their chart._________________Clint Black
Savage Worlds Core Rules Brand Manager

fair enough Clint - I guess that since I don't see the business side of the industry, I was just curious as to how PEG stacked up in terms of "success" (a subjective term I admit) as compared to the rest of the players.

I know that PEG is healthy at a time when lots of other companies have bitten the dust which says a lot. What about scale then? How many copies of the core rules (all variations) does SW sell compared to some of the big players. WoTC is obviously the king, and if they sell 25,000 copies a year, how far back are the players at the lower levels?

Not trying to be nosey - I always think of SW as major player but I know that I my perspective is off since I don't pay attention to other vendors much. Given that we have such close access to the "movers and shakers" in the SW development process, I consider the SW community to be very unique. I can't imagine being able to game with D&D creators on a regular basis - but I might be totally wrong on that only because my time is spent only in the SW community. I think of WoTC as being a huge lumbering corporation while I picture to be a small efficient family run business and as such, I wonder how big the divide is.

Anyway - just wondering aloud. I've always found the business side of the industry interesting._________________Chris in Atlanta
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"Were I not wed, I would take you in a manly fashion."
"Because I'm pretty?"
"Because you're pretty."

These products are popular (pathfinder and dnd) and have been "best sellers" for several years. It is hard to compete in sales with them, but currently I it seems to me, that Savage Worlds is second popular system compared to Pathfinder (d20). Specially with the new, beautiful deluxe rules book.

Another issue here is that Savage Worlds doesn't really push out a bunch of core rule books and instead focuses on settings put out by a lot of publishers.

So for Pinnacle that means they don't see "sales" numbers from players who buy Triple Ace product lines. However it still helps them in that those other publishers keep players in the Savage Worlds system who will then be likely to buy something like Deadlands Noir.

SW is obviously less popular than D&D or Pathfinder, but it still has a respectable mind share and I think that'll only improve as publishers put out quality products for it.

I would trust amazon's sales rankings over ICv2's any day of the week.

You missed a couple of big ones, namely Shadowrun at rank #21,493
and GURPS at rank #27,302

I can tell you that articles on my site do seem to match out the above ranking numbers. The pages on Shadowrun I have get about 3 - 4 times the hits that the Savage Worlds pages do._________________My Blog of Random Gaming: http://www.daemonstorm.com

Honestly, not really something I can definitively or even not-so-definitively answer.

I can say as it has been for some time, the top 2 are pretty much in a class all their own. Then you get into the next class range, we're pretty solidly in there with the rest. Still, it's hard to call when sales numbers tend to be the foundation of success, but we can sell copies of our core rulebook and not match the sales figures of a game that sells 1/3 or less that number of their own. Plus, most figures don't account for international versions of the rules or PDF sales (we do pretty good there).

I mean we're pretty much in a unique production paradigm that doesn't match up to the rest of the industry. We don't produce one-shot products, but our "line" is unique too.

Our core rules are very inexpensive, some first prints and at least reprints of the supplemental books are less expensive than comparable products, and settings are typically released complete as one or two books and even the exceptions aren't dozens of splatbooks.

That's just not a "normal" production scheme compared to most other RPG lines. I mean, 6 players and a GM can have all the material they need to run two complete pre-made campaigns of 50 Fathoms for less than what it would cost most GMs to get the basic rules for more popular games, much less a setting and campaign and books for the players.

Ultimately, I guess I'm saying we don't typically base our success on sales numbers, or we'd likely be handling sales in a different way.

We tend to base success on fans, and in that court, I think we're the most successful game on the market! _________________Clint Black
Savage Worlds Core Rules Brand Manager

I sold about 75% in Explorer's Edition as to what I sold in 4th Ed Player's Handbooks, up until D&D died and Explorer's went away (happened at a similar time so it's a good retrospective). Sadly, more and more I have no clue what people want for role-playing since hardly anyone buys it anymore. Paizo has been pretty successful in screwing brick and mortar retailers and we really didn't need their help in getting pushed out of the RPG market...

The saddest part for me, is that I started my store mainly because of how much I love role-playing, but if I count dice, (RPG) minis and paints it's still less than 3% of my business._________________Gryphon Games & Comics
2020 S College Ave, Suite B
Fort Collins CO 80525
www.gryphongamesandcomics.com

I sold about 75% in Explorer's Edition as to what I sold in 4th Ed Player's Handbooks, up until D&D died and Explorer's went away (happened at a similar time so it's a good retrospective). Sadly, more and more I have no clue what people want for role-playing since hardly anyone buys it anymore. Paizo has been pretty successful in screwing brick and mortar retailers and we really didn't need their help in getting pushed out of the RPG market...

The saddest part for me, is that I started my store mainly because of how much I love role-playing, but if I count dice, (RPG) minis and paints it's still less than 3% of my business.

This is very sad to hear but it does seem to be a sign of the times. I still try to purchase what I can from my FLGS but it just takes so long to get my orders in that I invariably order direct from the relevant company or Amazon._________________Conan by Monolith Board Games LLC
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/806316071/conan

I sold about 75% in Explorer's Edition as to what I sold in 4th Ed Player's Handbooks, up until D&D died and Explorer's went away (happened at a similar time so it's a good retrospective). Sadly, more and more I have no clue what people want for role-playing since hardly anyone buys it anymore. Paizo has been pretty successful in screwing brick and mortar retailers and we really didn't need their help in getting pushed out of the RPG market...

The saddest part for me, is that I started my store mainly because of how much I love role-playing, but if I count dice, (RPG) minis and paints it's still less than 3% of my business.

Well, amongst gamers, Role-players are a small niche. My FLGS does more business in boardgames and miniature war games (WH40K, WH Fantasy, etc...) than in all the RPGs that they carry. Easy to tell because their price stickers list the month/year that an item came in on. The RPG books seem to sit around longer than the boardgames or miniatures._________________My Blog of Random Gaming: http://www.daemonstorm.com

I've followed the icv2 stats for a few years now and while I think they correctly survey the trends of the big hitters (Pathfinder, D&D) I challenge some of the other PnP's they consistently rank in the top 5. I'd be very surprised if DragonAge is truly a top 5 seller and currently besting Green Ronin's own Mutants & Masterminds. I say that having personally GM'd a number of DragonAGE games and are somewhat of a fan, but that system is practically dead mostly due to Green Ronin giving it so little love over the past 2 years. I'm also skeptical Fantasy Flight Games Warhammer RPG's rank so high.

I also follow the ranks on drivethrurpg and rpgnow, pay attention to what systems get discussed in the insanely active RPG.NET forums and talk to the owners of a majority of the LGS's in my city over the course of a year. Based on all that I'm fairly comfortable that Savage Worlds ranks in the top 20 if not the top 10.

I don't know, I know a lot of people that enjoy it and some people whose only experience with RPGs is that system_________________"Well, you do know what those who underestimate tigers always say right?"
"What?"
"They scream, 'Oh god help me I'm being mauled to death by a tiger.'"

I don't know, I know a lot of people that enjoy it and some people whose only experience with RPGs is that system

Oh I know WH40k RP is popular, but don't forget that when icv2 does their ranking they combine all 3 of the RP games together. If the same was done for Savage Worlds, it would be like combining SWD with Deadlands, 50 Fathoms and Necessary Evil for total sales. I've no doubt the WH40k games together are in the top 10, but if you separated them I'm not so sure.