Bruce Batt
Canvasback Recovery/Waterfowl Recovery
Interview: 1986
Steve:
... The major breeding grounds, if the estimates are realistic, and it is hard, I think, to really be objective if you are not there throughout the year to see the numbers of ducks, and, consequently, when you are up there in the fly, you see them staging, and it always looks like there are hundreds and hundreds of thousands of ducks.
Bruce Batt:
Yes.
Steve:
Do you think the figures that The Canadian Fish & Wildlife or Canadian Wildlife Service and The Fish and Wildlife Service came up with last year are honest figures?
Bruce Batt:
Yes, I do. I don't have any basis in which to question the spring survey of ducks taken place by The Fish and Wildlife Service, The Canadian Wildlife Service do; it's the most sophisticated waterfowl survey in the world. I mean, it's the gold standard. That's not to say it can't be improved, but I don't think there is any reason in the world to question the consistency and the integrity of it. You get into estimating production, it gets a little softer because the methods are not as crisp and not as clean, and there is a lot more variability. But in terms of counting the spring populations, I don't have any real basis on which to question them at all, so.
Steve:
In light of the decline and the reduction in the population of the species that came out last fall, do you think it is realistic, or do you think it is possible to rebuild numbers to previous highs with agricultural changes and you get help from wildlife or habitat from Canada, do you.... all these different organizations?
Bruce Batt:
I don't know but I think so, I mean I certainly hope so, but I basically think that all the raw materials are still there. Meaning, we haven't irreversibly lost the raw material that it takes to make ducks and fall flights. I don't think, what we don't know is what has been lost in terms of recovery potential, that is the new phrase I guess. So, in around a lot...
Steve:
Recovery potential?
Bruce Batt:
In the old days, following '63, there was far less drainage and there was far more of plant cover that was still in place, and that sort of thing, and populations recovered. Now what we don't know is that now with all the drainage and clearing of land that has taken place in the intervening 25 years, what is the potential to recover from this? Saying, comparatively, the same depths of the population are the same--I don't know what the answer is. I would venture though that if we combine reasonable harvest practices and have some luck with the weather--that things can come back as certainly as good as we have seen for 15 years anyway. I don't think we will ever hit the mid-50's again, but I think the mid-50's were exceptional, I mean I don't think the populations were that high in the 10 years before the mid-50's, and I think that was the highest of living memory.
Interviewer #2:
Was that '49, Steve, when they did the big canvasback concept on Hazel?
Steve:
Yes.
Interviewer #2:
And how many were on Hazel then? Was it something like 29?
Steve:
Yes, 20,000-25,000, there were 180,000 to 200,000 cans, I do not know if they meant strictly cans, but there was 180,000-200,000 birds on the scene at that time.
Interviewer #2:
Now, from that time until now that the lakes Hazel and Moore, would you say that on average year, the pocket is about 300 cans now or at least.... ?
Steve:
Yes, I mean not even that.
Interviewer #2:
One year I think we counted 300, it was like two years or ago, or whenever we went around both lakes, and then it was 25,000 in 1949.
Steve:
Uh hmm.
Interviewer #2:
What is the hope for the canvasback on some of our more traditional stop-over lakes?
Bruce Batt:
Well, I mean, I don't know the situation in Minnesota all that well, but I know Lake Christina, that I have been there a couple of times, and that lake is different now than it was in 1949- I mean it is full of bowheads and there is high turbulence and there is high ammonia content in the water, and the plants aren't the same.
Interviewer #2:
(unclear) my question was, we are trying to work on the lake and get it designated as a game lake and bring back the (unclear), there is (unclear) in there, if the carp would leave it alone and get (unclear). If we would do that, what hope is there up here in the production area in the long-run for the canvasback?
Bruce Batt:
There aren't good counts of how many canvasbacks there were in 1949, but since '63, when they were at their previous low, well say since later in the '60's until about 1983 or 1984, canvasback were basically stable. I mean it went up and down from year to year, probably in response to water availability, but the canvasback was basically stable. I think that was because of the management strategies that were employed, which was mostly harvest control, closed counties, and all these big closure areas and that sort of thing as well. In the midst of this drought, when production was so bad, the Atlantic Flyaway opened an experimental canvasback season and allowed, I don't know what the limit was, but they increased the kill on an already depleted population, and the coincidence is now is that we now have the fourth lowest population of canvasbacks, or third or fourth lowest ever counted now. I don't know what that is related to, but it seemed like the wrong time to be having an experimental canvasback season, when everything is going wrong. So, we are back to where we were. I can't really give you any kind of insightful opinion in relation to '49. But, I mean, we are back to where we were in the early '60's, and we came back from there, and I think most people would agree that the habitat of the canvasback is still substantially intact, I mean, in spite of the drainage and changes, it is substantially still intact. The upland-nesting ducks are having a hell of a lot of trouble, but the over-water nesters are probably basically responsive to harvest and to the amount of water in the prairies.
Interviewer #2:
Food availabilities for canvasbacks (unclear), do they migrate back and forth, what they used to eat--?
Bruce Batt:
Certainly, I think a lot of your lakes in Minnesota for sure. On the prairies I don't think so. You've got this situation at Keokuk and Iowa and at La Crosse, WI.
Interviewer #2:
(unclear)
Interviewer #2:
(unclear) canvasbacks in Manitoba?
Bruce Batt:
One.
Interviewer #2:
We have one in Minnesota, and some places zero. I read something in one of the books about geese down at the Chesapeake Bay that they can take like five or six geese.
Bruce Batt:
That is that experimental season.
Interviewer #2:
That seems, that is pretty significant.
Steve:
I think Washington or California is four, of course, that is....
Bruce Batt:
See, the idea of an experimental season, that it's in response to political pressure from all the....
Interviewer #3:
It can't be biological because, like we know that it is the same bird here that it is out at Chesapeake Bay.
Bruce Batt:
Also, the biological argument is that it's all these extra males that are just going to waste, going out and harvesting them, and there are all kinds of other funny things that people say to justify shooting more canvasbacks. I lost track, I don't where I was headed with that point.
Interviewer #2:
When you talk about canvasbacks, you are right on track.
Steve:
Okay, considering canvasbacks are the hallmark of ducks period in ultra classics, Peter suggested closing the season for three years. If you had the wand in your hand, what kind of recommendations would you make? I don't want to put you on the spot, if you don't want to answer it, you do not have to; that is fine.
Bruce Batt:
Myself, I would not be quite so dramatic in my response, I guess. I mean, I think it would be very interesting to see what would happen if we did that. I mean, if it came about, I guess that would be just the way it would be, and fine, let's find out. But- I don't think we need that drastic an action right now, but I think we need to get back into what was working, which were, for the canvasback, which included pretty restrictive hunting regulations, closures, and all that kind of stuff. We need to get back to where we were because we had stability, we had relative stability in population through all that time, and that was successful management. I mean, it could be interpreted as having been successful management. I just think that two things happened at once; we had liberal hunting regulations for five years and we had a drought, and either one of those things can account for the decline. I pretty strongly believe that the amount of water in the prairies has a lot to do with the fall flight. We need some wet years, and who knows when they are going to happen. Manitoba, presumably, looks like it is going to have a good year. But, we aren't big enough; the area of duck production in Manitoba is not big enough to feed the continent. If Saskatchewan and Alberta stay dry, well it's still going to be a poor fall flight.
Steve:
Would you like to see the States maybe take a little more restrictive stand on limits and the seasons? After all, you know 70% of the birds harvested in North America are killed in the States.
Bruce Batt:
80%.
Steve:
It seems logical that if the American hunter is going to take that percent of the birds, we have to be responsible for some cut-backs.
Bruce Batt:
I would think so, yes, I definitely think so. Minnesota shoots as many ducks as all of the hunters in western Canada shoot, and Louisiana shoots as many ducks as all the hunters in the Atlantic Flyaway. So those kinds of statistics don't indicate to the average Canadian, who is being asked to fork out money to save wetlands or is being asked to turn his wetlands over, freeze, and that the ducks are limited for birds to export, you know, which 80% of what he raises that are shot, are shot somewhere else. It's not a very compelling argument to convince Canadians to do much about this sort of thing.
Interviewer #2:
Especially the farmer, I would think, they say it's all being harvested down in Louisiana.
Steve:
Although, I think a lot of times the farmers don't realize, and we would not be here if we were not very interested in the future of ducks, and hunting (unclear) Waterfowl Association. We are doing a lot, you know, in trying to raise money and (unclear), and so, not all of us are responsible in that fashion. But, we do have a lot of people that are interested.
Bruce Batt:
On the average, it strikes me, I mean, there is a whole different ethic of hunting and a whole different attitude about ducks in Canada, in the Deep South, at least. I think northern states are probably a little more comparable to attitudes that we have in Canada. But the Deep South, I think, is a lot different.
Interviewer #2:
Minnesota has been really good -- kind of policing themselves as far as the states go. They implemented 4 o'clock closures and they have restricted their bag limits somewhat compared to a lot of other states, and kind of put a little extra effort into it. But some of the states are really out of whack.
Bruce Batt:
Yes, 70- to- 80-day hunting seasons, for example, really irritate Canadians.
Interviewer #2:
The bag limits. That’s unbelievable too. There are states where deer hunting down South, where you can take a deer a day, even still.
Bruce Batt:
That doesn't matter, that's resident game. I mean, they can do whatever they want.
Interviewer #2:
Yes, I understand, but that carries over into waterfowl too, waterfowl management also.
Bruce Batt:
In Manitoba, if you want to hunt, you can hunt grouse when they are cycle, you can hunt ducks and you can hunt deer, and you damned near can't hunt anything else. Whereas in the South, you've got good deer hunting if you can get out in somebody's private land, you have turkey hunting, quail hunting, you have got better fishing then we have got, you got all of the ducks and the geese. Louisiana calls themselves a sportsman’s paradise, well, probably...
Interviewer #2:
Some of the states are really overly liberal with that stuff, they just haven't starting policing themselves yet and, again, it's just like you stated, political pressure.
Bruce Batt:
It's not very political in Canada but in the states, yes, in the South particularly. I don't know about Minnesota, less so than in the Deep South I think.
Steve:
Well, also in the Deep South, but yes.
Interviewer #2:
As a much more professional biologist and all; we hear a lot now about predators. Where do you kind of put habitat with predators? Does cooling having any migration up this way, does that have any significant impact?
Bruce Batt:
Yes, I think it probably does on canvasbacks and some of the (unclear) water nesters, because before the coon got here, canvasbacks nested in Pothole Country, and there really weren't very many predators that would bother them. I mean, the crows would sit on their nest and the mink maybe, but skunks and foxes would not go out over water. So, raccoon added to the problem that they did not have before. So, I think it's important, I do not know how important, it is a new factor.
Interviewer #2:
It's not (unclear) it is somehow important.
Bruce Batt:
It is a new factor, but I don't know how big a deal it is. Raccoons are not that abundant here but they aren't as abundant as they are elsewhere, but predation is important.
Interviewer #2:
They're smart enough to figure out that a wood duck bob as a means of a meal, whereas maybe some other predators are just more of a chance. So, I suppose they are a bit smarter about this.
Bruce Batt:
Probably the worse predator is a skunk. I don't even know if they are looking for duck nests, they just sort of grub around looking for whatever they stumble across.
Interviewer #2:
What about herbicides and pesticides, effect breeding and numbers and stuffs?
Bruce Batt:
We don't think that makes a heck of a lot of difference, but there is really no research on which to base that conclusion, but it is sort of an educated guess. We are now supporting a couple of studies; one major study dealing with a pesticide called Furadan, which is what is used in Saskatchewan and Alberta to control grasshoppers. One of the things that go along with a drought is you get these fantastic outbreaks of grasshopper, and Furadan ends up in the ponds and that sort of thing, and we wonder what it does to the food in the ponds and how that affects the ducks, so we have a study underway. But, there has not been much work done, there is just very little work done. There are some horror studies of what happens in places like Columbia, where all the blue-winged teal winter, where there was no control in pesticides, and where anecdotal evidence is that DVT, particularly, and some of those really heavy things that we can't even use here just sort of poison the rice fields and their crops, which end up in the blue-winged teal, but I don't know, there are connections, but I do not how to make them in terms of how that effects the population- we know that it is not good.
Steve:
The United States has really been pushing this deal lead shot issue right now in Minnesota and North Dakota and South Dakota, (unclear) 80 or 89. Do you think this deal over the lead problem was blown out of proportion or do you think it is a legitimate problem that needs correcting?
Bruce Batt:
I can honestly beg off from that one because I just don't know. I have no experience with it, so. I have not used it and it is not considered to be a problem in Canada, and nobody working here has ever done anything very direct as far as research or so. I read the controversy in the papers and things like that, and there are a lot of contradictions and I don't know where the right...
Steve:
I would think this area would be...., because it has obviously been governed.
Bruce Batt:
You would silt through tons of mud to find any shot, and it's because the bottom of the marsh has that much loon shit in it, and it goes through and it is unavailable for ducks, so there is bound to be a lot of lead out there, but it's thought to be unavailable because of the nature of the bottom. And then a lot in Saskatchewan, Alberta and Manitoba and in some places, I mean most of the shooting is in the fields, it's not over water. I mean, there is almost no tradition in Canada, in western Canada, of hunting over water except here and a couple of other big marshes, but mostly it's field hunting for geese and mallards, and hunters do not care much about any other ducks, you know. This tradition of diver duck hunting in the Dell Marsh is more of a Southern than an Eastern thing and what happens in the prairies, this is a little different than most of the rest of the prairies- so that lead does not end up in the water.
Steve:
The North American waterfowl population is supposed to be assigned soon. What do you think about that?
Bruce Batt:
Well, I just wrote something; I said it was the most significant step ever taken, or taken in waterfowl management in North America since 1916. I mean, it kind of clearly recognizes where action needs to be taken with habitat for long-term solutions, and it sets up mechanisms for things to be done, and for corrective measures to be taken. It prescribes responses to population levels for harvest regulations and that sort of thing, which I think are very important because it takes all the argument out of it. I mean, one of the most divisive issues in all of waterfowl management is the annual bickering about hunting regulations. I mean, instead of people interested in waterfowl working together, they work against each other, so that takes out meaning by having prescribed levels and responses. I think that is an important dimension. Also, it formalizes agreement between the two countries. Whereas before, I mean there is the Flyaways Counsels, but they just have coincidental membership from the Canadian Provinces with no voting power or anything like, whereas I think this is a far better way to carefully move into the future with ducks and duck management. I mean, there is no meat on the bones; the plan is just the bones. We don't know if it is actually going to come off, but I think it's a good step- I think waterfowl managers want to make it work.
Interviewer #2:
The executive board of the Minnesota Water Fowl Association has proposed that perhaps the NWA should be involved with operation in canvasback for Minnesota, the idea being that the canvasback used to be a breeding bird in Minnesota in apparently high numbers, but now in just very small numbers. What off the cuff response would you give to that? Is it a kind of a hopeless thing? If we can't remake the prairie population that we once had, what would your thoughts be?
Bruce Batt:
I cannot relate to the Minnesota habitat very well, or to the hunting pressure. But, I mean, there’s more hunters in Minnesota than any other state, I think, is that right?
Steve:
There are about 130,000…
Bruce Batt:
They are not first or second.
Steve:
There are about 130,000, I suppose so.
Bruce Batt:
Canvasback is a bird that is a very strong homer, I mean, virtually all living female canvasbacks come back to the place where they were born and where they nested the year before. The only way you can build local traditions and local populations of breeding canvasbacks is to protect those birds. I mean, you basically, I think, have to close large areas in which you can allow canvasbacks to come back and recover. I don't think there is any other quick fix. I think the canvasback is pretty responsive to protection, and I think it would work, but that is a kind of thing I think you have to be prepared to do.
Steve:
It is pointed out that...
Bruce Batt:
I do not know what the habitat is like; now if the habitat is basically there, then, I think, with some protection you can do it. The other ducks are not quite like that.
Interviewer #2:
I think Don (Yamicky-sp?) is involved with that and he artificially has worked with canvasbacks, trying to release them and so forth, and getting homing hens and that sort of thing but he realizes, I am sure too, that is a small…
Interviewer #3:
Yes, I think that when canvasbacks came through way back when, and when (Lake) Christina was hot is basically, I mean the feed was there and it was a staging and during migration it was...
Interviewer #2:
Yes, I understand, but isn't the idea of this operation canvasback to get breeding populations.... I think it is rare in our county to have a canvasback nest, but apparently it didn't used to be rare so much, like Middle Lake improved 2 years ago, or rather we talked about it.
Interviewer #2:
You still see the odd loon around but nothing like it was even 20 years ago.
Bruce Batt:
Yes.
Interviewer #2:
That is like even with Lake Christina, if we do get it cleaned and get the food back, and whatever, we'll begin seeing them stop in there again, you know.
Interviewer #3:
Yes, I am beginning to think they will.
Bruce Batt:
I think so, but, I mean, they got a new tradition, you know, at La Crosse and Keokuk, I mean, that's something that in '49 when they were stopping in (Lake) Christina, they weren't stopping at La Crosse and Keokuk because there was no food there. Well, in La Crosse they now have incredible stands of Vallisneria, thousands of acres of Vallisneria area and crystal clear water, and the canvas have found it, and that is the tradition now.
Steve:
Are you speaking of mill grass?
Bruce Batt:
Wild celery.
Steve:
Don't they feed pretty extensively on (unclear) clams when they get down in that river too?
Bruce Batt:
Yes, but it is thought to be sort of a second choice. I mean, the preference, I think, the main food is tubers of wild celery, that is their food preference for sure.
Steve:
One thing I have really a gripe against (unclear) for example, a half an hour before sunrise, and Canada is even more liberal, I believe Saskatchewan is an hour after sunset.
Bruce Batt:
An hour? I didn't know that. A half an hour, isn't it?
Steve:
Yes, maybe it is a half an hour. But you take an hour right there, and I would say people that shoot ducks, the majority of your groups at that time are lost in (unclear). It seems like all of these little things add up too, and if they would adopt some of these new regulations and, I think, you know, (unclear) shooting off base, (unclear). I would like to see (unclear).
Bruce Batt:
Yes, that is. I think I agree with you, although a lot of these other things are cleaned up, it might make a difference. Shooting hours are one thing. The other thing it would do is add to the quality of the experience. I mean, if you are shooting a duck at sunrise in the middle of the marsh, I know ducks pretty well, I wouldn't know what I was shooting at. I know that I can identify ducks better than almost any other guy in the marsh just because that’s what I do for a living, I see them every day. But, I do think that that it adds to the quality of the experience to do things like go out and say, "Well, today we are going to shoot male bluebills." I mean, that adds a little bit of, I mean, that is tough to do that. It is kind of fun, but…
Interviewer #2:
90% of the hunters don't care about, you know, whether if it is a hen or a drake or a can or... they don't know, that isn't important to them, and that's too bad.
Bruce Batt:
... make a little bit of difference, and they add to the quality of your experience out there, I think. We always do that, we always set little regulations for each hunt and stuff. What you can do and what you can't do, and it is mostly, it is something the gun hunter should learn but isn't inclined to do because he is in a hurry. But, if you hunted for a few years, then it kind of adds things to the hunt that you don't..
Steve:
Do you think with the concern and (unclear) hunters and professionals, just people who like to photograph birds and watch birds, do you think there is a good future and to the waterfowl?
Bruce Batt:
Well, I hope... I think the future is going to depend on the success of improving production of the farmland, and some of the things that are underway right now seem like they have to take place because, alternatively, there is just going to be a continuing recording of the decline. I guess I don't know, I guess I just think that what I see in Canada, at least, is sort of unprecedented commitment by Canadian Conservation groups and the government of Canada now and a lot of strong web service, at least from the Provinces, to do more than they have in the past, and there seems to be a unity of approach now to dealing with a lot of these things that we didn't have before, which I think the atmosphere is right, we need some... It's a new area, we have never been here before, we have never been in population troubles like this and we've never had habitat this bad, so. The attitude is good, I think, and the mechanisms are in place, we need some breaks and some effective programs. The raw materials are there, I mean that is my catch phrase, I guess.
Interviewer #1:
What can the average hunting (unclear) from The United States have?
Bruce Batt:
Oh, I don't know. I would say one of the most important things is to become better informed than the average duck hunter is in the States. I think the average duck hunter that I have met in the States is a pretty rah-rah-rah, shoot 'em type kind of guy, and thinks that spending his $100 at a DU dinner is his contribution to the duck resource and he sort of bought his ticket by doing that, and there is a lot more to it than that, I think. I mean, I think things like his own personal ethics.
Steve:
You hit the nail on the head.
Interviewer #1:
Yes.
Bruce Batt:
His personal ethics in the way he hunts and the way he teaches his kids and his friends, and the way I think he needs to respect the game as much as the target. I mean, there is more to it than its roots in Canada. It gets to where it is by a tough process, and then it needs to be looked after when it gets there too. I think becoming better informed of where the ducks come from, and what it takes for them to survive outside of the green season will all contribute to more effective programs. I don't think everything has to happen in Canada. I mean, there are staging areas in Minnesota and all the way down in the states and in the wintering grounds. I mean, all of these are all parts of the annual cycle of ducks, and any one of them that is a little bit short is a weak link in the chain. So, I think everybody everywhere can do something. It is not just sending money to Canada, although that is where I think the biggest conservation crisis may be, is with the habitat conditions in the Prairie Pothole Region, which includes North Dakota, but it is primarily in Canada. I don't know, I guess I didn't answer your question at all...
Interviewer #1:
No, that's fine. The nice thing about duck hunting is it's probably tougher in the states and not necessarily up here, but in the states when a guy wants to go duck hunting, it is tougher than any other kind of hunting. If you want to go deer hunting, you put on an orange cap and you grab a rifle and you go deer hunting.
Bruce Batt:
Yes.
Interviewer #1:
Where most of the time you have to have a couple hundred decoys, or a hundred decoys, and they cost money, it's a lot more work, you are pulling through 10 miles of loon shoot, you got everything... I mean, it's tough. So, hopefully, and now with prices rising on duck stands, for instance, and whatever, hopefully, some of these slobs that have been going out hunting for all these years that don't know what they are doing and whatever, are going to be knocked off a little bit. I mean, deer hunters probably have the worst reputation of anybody for being a bunch of jerks, I mean, you don't go deer hunting unless you got a couple of cases, two cases of beer per guy and all this stuff, they just kind of have that reputation, and it is really easy to do to go hunting. So, hopefully, we are knocking off some of these people that...
Bruce Batt:
Yes, it is a funny kind of thing, you lose these people but you lose votes, you lose part of your voice. So, it is kind of a...
Interviewer #1:
Sure, yes, it is kind of a Catch-22. Bruce Batt:
You don't want them out there because they affect your reputation.
Interviewer #1:
But, for every guy that you lose that used to spend $15, I think the guys that are willing to get involved in the standard, maybe it will only be 60,000 instead of 135,000 in 10 years, or maybe it would be 75,000, but I think most guys are willing to cough up a few extra chips to keep it going if they have to. I mean, like these guys, whatever. I mean, if a license, we are talking about this season closure for 3 years and I don't think there is one here that would say, "Boy, if that would work, we'd go along with it."
Bruce Batt:
That is a Northern attitude, though.
Interviewer #1:
Well, yeah.
Bruce Batt:
Minnesota and North Dakota would feel that way, and maybe guys in Wisconsin, I don't know. But, you get past Iowa, nobody wants to talk about that.
Interviewer #1:
Well, yeah, when the other states are giving you the shaft too, and here you are trying to police yourself and you're watching, you know, and put pressure on these other guys.
Bruce Batt:
The problem is it is migratory game, it's not resident.
Steve: The same thing in that 4 o'clock closing that we, that there apparently could be a difference because of the number of ducks that come back in the next spring are increased in Minnesota, but we are not sure the men down South are shooting at them.
Bruce Batt:
Your 4 o'clock closure started when?
Steve:
Probably about 8 years ago.
Interviewer #1:
About 5, 6, 7 years ago.
Steve:
Quite awhile, it's clear it made a difference.
Bruce Batt:
But that's the trouble with waterfowl management is there is always things that happen at the same time. Yeah, you close at 4 o'clock, but you also have the wettest 5 years that you have ever had too, so you have had the best condition in breeding waterfowl, so that they come back. So, in conclusion, is that it is probably both things contributing one to the other, but habitat makes a lot of difference.
Interviewer #1: Can you encourage us, I hope, about we have been trying to sell an idea, I think I mentioned, on being designation for this lake and tell people it is important that in the spring for the birds to be in good shape when they get up to Minnesota, so we can should (?) the carp, get the food back in the lakes, we should do this, that it is biologically sound, isn't it?
Bruce Batt:
Yes, it is clear and obvious with the geese. I mean, the connections are well established for the geese. The research connections are less clear cut with the ducks, but it is a logical and consistent argument by looking at the birds in spring, especially the big ducks, the mallards and the canvasbacks, because the big ducks transport nutrients in their body which they use for laying once they get here. The small ducks don't because they can't. I mean they depend on food in their breeding grounds for breeding, for nesting, for their eggs. But the big ducks, I think it's a pretty good argument. That is what I would say, that is the logical point that I would try to make to them. Ducks are never in any better condition then they are right in the spring.
Interviewer #1:
You are an avid duck hunter yourself, aren’t you?
Bruce Batt:
Yes, by Canadian standards, I mean I hunt once a week.
Interviewer #1:
That is how I got started. I know Roger started out....
End of dictation.....
Key Words: Bruce Batt, canvasback recovery; waterfowl management; waterfowl breeding grounds; migratory waterfowl stop-over lakes; Canadian Wildlife Service; prairie waterfowl populations; 1949 canvasback concept; Lake Hazel canvasback population; Lake Moore canvasback population; Lake Christina canvasback population; 1949 canvasback population; Atlantic Flyaway; canvasback habitat control; Prairie Pothole Country; pesticides such as DVT and Furadan effects on waterfowl; predators effect on waterfowl; diver duck hunting in the Dell Marsh; canvasback breeding; blue-winged teal; bluebill duck; Manitoba waterfowl; Saskatchewan waterfowl; Alberta waterfowl; lead shot waterfowl studies

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Bruce Batt
Canvasback Recovery/Waterfowl Recovery
Interview: 1986
Steve:
... The major breeding grounds, if the estimates are realistic, and it is hard, I think, to really be objective if you are not there throughout the year to see the numbers of ducks, and, consequently, when you are up there in the fly, you see them staging, and it always looks like there are hundreds and hundreds of thousands of ducks.
Bruce Batt:
Yes.
Steve:
Do you think the figures that The Canadian Fish & Wildlife or Canadian Wildlife Service and The Fish and Wildlife Service came up with last year are honest figures?
Bruce Batt:
Yes, I do. I don't have any basis in which to question the spring survey of ducks taken place by The Fish and Wildlife Service, The Canadian Wildlife Service do; it's the most sophisticated waterfowl survey in the world. I mean, it's the gold standard. That's not to say it can't be improved, but I don't think there is any reason in the world to question the consistency and the integrity of it. You get into estimating production, it gets a little softer because the methods are not as crisp and not as clean, and there is a lot more variability. But in terms of counting the spring populations, I don't have any real basis on which to question them at all, so.
Steve:
In light of the decline and the reduction in the population of the species that came out last fall, do you think it is realistic, or do you think it is possible to rebuild numbers to previous highs with agricultural changes and you get help from wildlife or habitat from Canada, do you.... all these different organizations?
Bruce Batt:
I don't know but I think so, I mean I certainly hope so, but I basically think that all the raw materials are still there. Meaning, we haven't irreversibly lost the raw material that it takes to make ducks and fall flights. I don't think, what we don't know is what has been lost in terms of recovery potential, that is the new phrase I guess. So, in around a lot...
Steve:
Recovery potential?
Bruce Batt:
In the old days, following '63, there was far less drainage and there was far more of plant cover that was still in place, and that sort of thing, and populations recovered. Now what we don't know is that now with all the drainage and clearing of land that has taken place in the intervening 25 years, what is the potential to recover from this? Saying, comparatively, the same depths of the population are the same--I don't know what the answer is. I would venture though that if we combine reasonable harvest practices and have some luck with the weather--that things can come back as certainly as good as we have seen for 15 years anyway. I don't think we will ever hit the mid-50's again, but I think the mid-50's were exceptional, I mean I don't think the populations were that high in the 10 years before the mid-50's, and I think that was the highest of living memory.
Interviewer #2:
Was that '49, Steve, when they did the big canvasback concept on Hazel?
Steve:
Yes.
Interviewer #2:
And how many were on Hazel then? Was it something like 29?
Steve:
Yes, 20,000-25,000, there were 180,000 to 200,000 cans, I do not know if they meant strictly cans, but there was 180,000-200,000 birds on the scene at that time.
Interviewer #2:
Now, from that time until now that the lakes Hazel and Moore, would you say that on average year, the pocket is about 300 cans now or at least.... ?
Steve:
Yes, I mean not even that.
Interviewer #2:
One year I think we counted 300, it was like two years or ago, or whenever we went around both lakes, and then it was 25,000 in 1949.
Steve:
Uh hmm.
Interviewer #2:
What is the hope for the canvasback on some of our more traditional stop-over lakes?
Bruce Batt:
Well, I mean, I don't know the situation in Minnesota all that well, but I know Lake Christina, that I have been there a couple of times, and that lake is different now than it was in 1949- I mean it is full of bowheads and there is high turbulence and there is high ammonia content in the water, and the plants aren't the same.
Interviewer #2:
(unclear) my question was, we are trying to work on the lake and get it designated as a game lake and bring back the (unclear), there is (unclear) in there, if the carp would leave it alone and get (unclear). If we would do that, what hope is there up here in the production area in the long-run for the canvasback?
Bruce Batt:
There aren't good counts of how many canvasbacks there were in 1949, but since '63, when they were at their previous low, well say since later in the '60's until about 1983 or 1984, canvasback were basically stable. I mean it went up and down from year to year, probably in response to water availability, but the canvasback was basically stable. I think that was because of the management strategies that were employed, which was mostly harvest control, closed counties, and all these big closure areas and that sort of thing as well. In the midst of this drought, when production was so bad, the Atlantic Flyaway opened an experimental canvasback season and allowed, I don't know what the limit was, but they increased the kill on an already depleted population, and the coincidence is now is that we now have the fourth lowest population of canvasbacks, or third or fourth lowest ever counted now. I don't know what that is related to, but it seemed like the wrong time to be having an experimental canvasback season, when everything is going wrong. So, we are back to where we were. I can't really give you any kind of insightful opinion in relation to '49. But, I mean, we are back to where we were in the early '60's, and we came back from there, and I think most people would agree that the habitat of the canvasback is still substantially intact, I mean, in spite of the drainage and changes, it is substantially still intact. The upland-nesting ducks are having a hell of a lot of trouble, but the over-water nesters are probably basically responsive to harvest and to the amount of water in the prairies.
Interviewer #2:
Food availabilities for canvasbacks (unclear), do they migrate back and forth, what they used to eat--?
Bruce Batt:
Certainly, I think a lot of your lakes in Minnesota for sure. On the prairies I don't think so. You've got this situation at Keokuk and Iowa and at La Crosse, WI.
Interviewer #2:
(unclear)
Interviewer #2:
(unclear) canvasbacks in Manitoba?
Bruce Batt:
One.
Interviewer #2:
We have one in Minnesota, and some places zero. I read something in one of the books about geese down at the Chesapeake Bay that they can take like five or six geese.
Bruce Batt:
That is that experimental season.
Interviewer #2:
That seems, that is pretty significant.
Steve:
I think Washington or California is four, of course, that is....
Bruce Batt:
See, the idea of an experimental season, that it's in response to political pressure from all the....
Interviewer #3:
It can't be biological because, like we know that it is the same bird here that it is out at Chesapeake Bay.
Bruce Batt:
Also, the biological argument is that it's all these extra males that are just going to waste, going out and harvesting them, and there are all kinds of other funny things that people say to justify shooting more canvasbacks. I lost track, I don't where I was headed with that point.
Interviewer #2:
When you talk about canvasbacks, you are right on track.
Steve:
Okay, considering canvasbacks are the hallmark of ducks period in ultra classics, Peter suggested closing the season for three years. If you had the wand in your hand, what kind of recommendations would you make? I don't want to put you on the spot, if you don't want to answer it, you do not have to; that is fine.
Bruce Batt:
Myself, I would not be quite so dramatic in my response, I guess. I mean, I think it would be very interesting to see what would happen if we did that. I mean, if it came about, I guess that would be just the way it would be, and fine, let's find out. But- I don't think we need that drastic an action right now, but I think we need to get back into what was working, which were, for the canvasback, which included pretty restrictive hunting regulations, closures, and all that kind of stuff. We need to get back to where we were because we had stability, we had relative stability in population through all that time, and that was successful management. I mean, it could be interpreted as having been successful management. I just think that two things happened at once; we had liberal hunting regulations for five years and we had a drought, and either one of those things can account for the decline. I pretty strongly believe that the amount of water in the prairies has a lot to do with the fall flight. We need some wet years, and who knows when they are going to happen. Manitoba, presumably, looks like it is going to have a good year. But, we aren't big enough; the area of duck production in Manitoba is not big enough to feed the continent. If Saskatchewan and Alberta stay dry, well it's still going to be a poor fall flight.
Steve:
Would you like to see the States maybe take a little more restrictive stand on limits and the seasons? After all, you know 70% of the birds harvested in North America are killed in the States.
Bruce Batt:
80%.
Steve:
It seems logical that if the American hunter is going to take that percent of the birds, we have to be responsible for some cut-backs.
Bruce Batt:
I would think so, yes, I definitely think so. Minnesota shoots as many ducks as all of the hunters in western Canada shoot, and Louisiana shoots as many ducks as all the hunters in the Atlantic Flyaway. So those kinds of statistics don't indicate to the average Canadian, who is being asked to fork out money to save wetlands or is being asked to turn his wetlands over, freeze, and that the ducks are limited for birds to export, you know, which 80% of what he raises that are shot, are shot somewhere else. It's not a very compelling argument to convince Canadians to do much about this sort of thing.
Interviewer #2:
Especially the farmer, I would think, they say it's all being harvested down in Louisiana.
Steve:
Although, I think a lot of times the farmers don't realize, and we would not be here if we were not very interested in the future of ducks, and hunting (unclear) Waterfowl Association. We are doing a lot, you know, in trying to raise money and (unclear), and so, not all of us are responsible in that fashion. But, we do have a lot of people that are interested.
Bruce Batt:
On the average, it strikes me, I mean, there is a whole different ethic of hunting and a whole different attitude about ducks in Canada, in the Deep South, at least. I think northern states are probably a little more comparable to attitudes that we have in Canada. But the Deep South, I think, is a lot different.
Interviewer #2:
Minnesota has been really good -- kind of policing themselves as far as the states go. They implemented 4 o'clock closures and they have restricted their bag limits somewhat compared to a lot of other states, and kind of put a little extra effort into it. But some of the states are really out of whack.
Bruce Batt:
Yes, 70- to- 80-day hunting seasons, for example, really irritate Canadians.
Interviewer #2:
The bag limits. That’s unbelievable too. There are states where deer hunting down South, where you can take a deer a day, even still.
Bruce Batt:
That doesn't matter, that's resident game. I mean, they can do whatever they want.
Interviewer #2:
Yes, I understand, but that carries over into waterfowl too, waterfowl management also.
Bruce Batt:
In Manitoba, if you want to hunt, you can hunt grouse when they are cycle, you can hunt ducks and you can hunt deer, and you damned near can't hunt anything else. Whereas in the South, you've got good deer hunting if you can get out in somebody's private land, you have turkey hunting, quail hunting, you have got better fishing then we have got, you got all of the ducks and the geese. Louisiana calls themselves a sportsman’s paradise, well, probably...
Interviewer #2:
Some of the states are really overly liberal with that stuff, they just haven't starting policing themselves yet and, again, it's just like you stated, political pressure.
Bruce Batt:
It's not very political in Canada but in the states, yes, in the South particularly. I don't know about Minnesota, less so than in the Deep South I think.
Steve:
Well, also in the Deep South, but yes.
Interviewer #2:
As a much more professional biologist and all; we hear a lot now about predators. Where do you kind of put habitat with predators? Does cooling having any migration up this way, does that have any significant impact?
Bruce Batt:
Yes, I think it probably does on canvasbacks and some of the (unclear) water nesters, because before the coon got here, canvasbacks nested in Pothole Country, and there really weren't very many predators that would bother them. I mean, the crows would sit on their nest and the mink maybe, but skunks and foxes would not go out over water. So, raccoon added to the problem that they did not have before. So, I think it's important, I do not know how important, it is a new factor.
Interviewer #2:
It's not (unclear) it is somehow important.
Bruce Batt:
It is a new factor, but I don't know how big a deal it is. Raccoons are not that abundant here but they aren't as abundant as they are elsewhere, but predation is important.
Interviewer #2:
They're smart enough to figure out that a wood duck bob as a means of a meal, whereas maybe some other predators are just more of a chance. So, I suppose they are a bit smarter about this.
Bruce Batt:
Probably the worse predator is a skunk. I don't even know if they are looking for duck nests, they just sort of grub around looking for whatever they stumble across.
Interviewer #2:
What about herbicides and pesticides, effect breeding and numbers and stuffs?
Bruce Batt:
We don't think that makes a heck of a lot of difference, but there is really no research on which to base that conclusion, but it is sort of an educated guess. We are now supporting a couple of studies; one major study dealing with a pesticide called Furadan, which is what is used in Saskatchewan and Alberta to control grasshoppers. One of the things that go along with a drought is you get these fantastic outbreaks of grasshopper, and Furadan ends up in the ponds and that sort of thing, and we wonder what it does to the food in the ponds and how that affects the ducks, so we have a study underway. But, there has not been much work done, there is just very little work done. There are some horror studies of what happens in places like Columbia, where all the blue-winged teal winter, where there was no control in pesticides, and where anecdotal evidence is that DVT, particularly, and some of those really heavy things that we can't even use here just sort of poison the rice fields and their crops, which end up in the blue-winged teal, but I don't know, there are connections, but I do not how to make them in terms of how that effects the population- we know that it is not good.
Steve:
The United States has really been pushing this deal lead shot issue right now in Minnesota and North Dakota and South Dakota, (unclear) 80 or 89. Do you think this deal over the lead problem was blown out of proportion or do you think it is a legitimate problem that needs correcting?
Bruce Batt:
I can honestly beg off from that one because I just don't know. I have no experience with it, so. I have not used it and it is not considered to be a problem in Canada, and nobody working here has ever done anything very direct as far as research or so. I read the controversy in the papers and things like that, and there are a lot of contradictions and I don't know where the right...
Steve:
I would think this area would be...., because it has obviously been governed.
Bruce Batt:
You would silt through tons of mud to find any shot, and it's because the bottom of the marsh has that much loon shit in it, and it goes through and it is unavailable for ducks, so there is bound to be a lot of lead out there, but it's thought to be unavailable because of the nature of the bottom. And then a lot in Saskatchewan, Alberta and Manitoba and in some places, I mean most of the shooting is in the fields, it's not over water. I mean, there is almost no tradition in Canada, in western Canada, of hunting over water except here and a couple of other big marshes, but mostly it's field hunting for geese and mallards, and hunters do not care much about any other ducks, you know. This tradition of diver duck hunting in the Dell Marsh is more of a Southern than an Eastern thing and what happens in the prairies, this is a little different than most of the rest of the prairies- so that lead does not end up in the water.
Steve:
The North American waterfowl population is supposed to be assigned soon. What do you think about that?
Bruce Batt:
Well, I just wrote something; I said it was the most significant step ever taken, or taken in waterfowl management in North America since 1916. I mean, it kind of clearly recognizes where action needs to be taken with habitat for long-term solutions, and it sets up mechanisms for things to be done, and for corrective measures to be taken. It prescribes responses to population levels for harvest regulations and that sort of thing, which I think are very important because it takes all the argument out of it. I mean, one of the most divisive issues in all of waterfowl management is the annual bickering about hunting regulations. I mean, instead of people interested in waterfowl working together, they work against each other, so that takes out meaning by having prescribed levels and responses. I think that is an important dimension. Also, it formalizes agreement between the two countries. Whereas before, I mean there is the Flyaways Counsels, but they just have coincidental membership from the Canadian Provinces with no voting power or anything like, whereas I think this is a far better way to carefully move into the future with ducks and duck management. I mean, there is no meat on the bones; the plan is just the bones. We don't know if it is actually going to come off, but I think it's a good step- I think waterfowl managers want to make it work.
Interviewer #2:
The executive board of the Minnesota Water Fowl Association has proposed that perhaps the NWA should be involved with operation in canvasback for Minnesota, the idea being that the canvasback used to be a breeding bird in Minnesota in apparently high numbers, but now in just very small numbers. What off the cuff response would you give to that? Is it a kind of a hopeless thing? If we can't remake the prairie population that we once had, what would your thoughts be?
Bruce Batt:
I cannot relate to the Minnesota habitat very well, or to the hunting pressure. But, I mean, there’s more hunters in Minnesota than any other state, I think, is that right?
Steve:
There are about 130,000…
Bruce Batt:
They are not first or second.
Steve:
There are about 130,000, I suppose so.
Bruce Batt:
Canvasback is a bird that is a very strong homer, I mean, virtually all living female canvasbacks come back to the place where they were born and where they nested the year before. The only way you can build local traditions and local populations of breeding canvasbacks is to protect those birds. I mean, you basically, I think, have to close large areas in which you can allow canvasbacks to come back and recover. I don't think there is any other quick fix. I think the canvasback is pretty responsive to protection, and I think it would work, but that is a kind of thing I think you have to be prepared to do.
Steve:
It is pointed out that...
Bruce Batt:
I do not know what the habitat is like; now if the habitat is basically there, then, I think, with some protection you can do it. The other ducks are not quite like that.
Interviewer #2:
I think Don (Yamicky-sp?) is involved with that and he artificially has worked with canvasbacks, trying to release them and so forth, and getting homing hens and that sort of thing but he realizes, I am sure too, that is a small…
Interviewer #3:
Yes, I think that when canvasbacks came through way back when, and when (Lake) Christina was hot is basically, I mean the feed was there and it was a staging and during migration it was...
Interviewer #2:
Yes, I understand, but isn't the idea of this operation canvasback to get breeding populations.... I think it is rare in our county to have a canvasback nest, but apparently it didn't used to be rare so much, like Middle Lake improved 2 years ago, or rather we talked about it.
Interviewer #2:
You still see the odd loon around but nothing like it was even 20 years ago.
Bruce Batt:
Yes.
Interviewer #2:
That is like even with Lake Christina, if we do get it cleaned and get the food back, and whatever, we'll begin seeing them stop in there again, you know.
Interviewer #3:
Yes, I am beginning to think they will.
Bruce Batt:
I think so, but, I mean, they got a new tradition, you know, at La Crosse and Keokuk, I mean, that's something that in '49 when they were stopping in (Lake) Christina, they weren't stopping at La Crosse and Keokuk because there was no food there. Well, in La Crosse they now have incredible stands of Vallisneria, thousands of acres of Vallisneria area and crystal clear water, and the canvas have found it, and that is the tradition now.
Steve:
Are you speaking of mill grass?
Bruce Batt:
Wild celery.
Steve:
Don't they feed pretty extensively on (unclear) clams when they get down in that river too?
Bruce Batt:
Yes, but it is thought to be sort of a second choice. I mean, the preference, I think, the main food is tubers of wild celery, that is their food preference for sure.
Steve:
One thing I have really a gripe against (unclear) for example, a half an hour before sunrise, and Canada is even more liberal, I believe Saskatchewan is an hour after sunset.
Bruce Batt:
An hour? I didn't know that. A half an hour, isn't it?
Steve:
Yes, maybe it is a half an hour. But you take an hour right there, and I would say people that shoot ducks, the majority of your groups at that time are lost in (unclear). It seems like all of these little things add up too, and if they would adopt some of these new regulations and, I think, you know, (unclear) shooting off base, (unclear). I would like to see (unclear).
Bruce Batt:
Yes, that is. I think I agree with you, although a lot of these other things are cleaned up, it might make a difference. Shooting hours are one thing. The other thing it would do is add to the quality of the experience. I mean, if you are shooting a duck at sunrise in the middle of the marsh, I know ducks pretty well, I wouldn't know what I was shooting at. I know that I can identify ducks better than almost any other guy in the marsh just because that’s what I do for a living, I see them every day. But, I do think that that it adds to the quality of the experience to do things like go out and say, "Well, today we are going to shoot male bluebills." I mean, that adds a little bit of, I mean, that is tough to do that. It is kind of fun, but…
Interviewer #2:
90% of the hunters don't care about, you know, whether if it is a hen or a drake or a can or... they don't know, that isn't important to them, and that's too bad.
Bruce Batt:
... make a little bit of difference, and they add to the quality of your experience out there, I think. We always do that, we always set little regulations for each hunt and stuff. What you can do and what you can't do, and it is mostly, it is something the gun hunter should learn but isn't inclined to do because he is in a hurry. But, if you hunted for a few years, then it kind of adds things to the hunt that you don't..
Steve:
Do you think with the concern and (unclear) hunters and professionals, just people who like to photograph birds and watch birds, do you think there is a good future and to the waterfowl?
Bruce Batt:
Well, I hope... I think the future is going to depend on the success of improving production of the farmland, and some of the things that are underway right now seem like they have to take place because, alternatively, there is just going to be a continuing recording of the decline. I guess I don't know, I guess I just think that what I see in Canada, at least, is sort of unprecedented commitment by Canadian Conservation groups and the government of Canada now and a lot of strong web service, at least from the Provinces, to do more than they have in the past, and there seems to be a unity of approach now to dealing with a lot of these things that we didn't have before, which I think the atmosphere is right, we need some... It's a new area, we have never been here before, we have never been in population troubles like this and we've never had habitat this bad, so. The attitude is good, I think, and the mechanisms are in place, we need some breaks and some effective programs. The raw materials are there, I mean that is my catch phrase, I guess.
Interviewer #1:
What can the average hunting (unclear) from The United States have?
Bruce Batt:
Oh, I don't know. I would say one of the most important things is to become better informed than the average duck hunter is in the States. I think the average duck hunter that I have met in the States is a pretty rah-rah-rah, shoot 'em type kind of guy, and thinks that spending his $100 at a DU dinner is his contribution to the duck resource and he sort of bought his ticket by doing that, and there is a lot more to it than that, I think. I mean, I think things like his own personal ethics.
Steve:
You hit the nail on the head.
Interviewer #1:
Yes.
Bruce Batt:
His personal ethics in the way he hunts and the way he teaches his kids and his friends, and the way I think he needs to respect the game as much as the target. I mean, there is more to it than its roots in Canada. It gets to where it is by a tough process, and then it needs to be looked after when it gets there too. I think becoming better informed of where the ducks come from, and what it takes for them to survive outside of the green season will all contribute to more effective programs. I don't think everything has to happen in Canada. I mean, there are staging areas in Minnesota and all the way down in the states and in the wintering grounds. I mean, all of these are all parts of the annual cycle of ducks, and any one of them that is a little bit short is a weak link in the chain. So, I think everybody everywhere can do something. It is not just sending money to Canada, although that is where I think the biggest conservation crisis may be, is with the habitat conditions in the Prairie Pothole Region, which includes North Dakota, but it is primarily in Canada. I don't know, I guess I didn't answer your question at all...
Interviewer #1:
No, that's fine. The nice thing about duck hunting is it's probably tougher in the states and not necessarily up here, but in the states when a guy wants to go duck hunting, it is tougher than any other kind of hunting. If you want to go deer hunting, you put on an orange cap and you grab a rifle and you go deer hunting.
Bruce Batt:
Yes.
Interviewer #1:
Where most of the time you have to have a couple hundred decoys, or a hundred decoys, and they cost money, it's a lot more work, you are pulling through 10 miles of loon shoot, you got everything... I mean, it's tough. So, hopefully, and now with prices rising on duck stands, for instance, and whatever, hopefully, some of these slobs that have been going out hunting for all these years that don't know what they are doing and whatever, are going to be knocked off a little bit. I mean, deer hunters probably have the worst reputation of anybody for being a bunch of jerks, I mean, you don't go deer hunting unless you got a couple of cases, two cases of beer per guy and all this stuff, they just kind of have that reputation, and it is really easy to do to go hunting. So, hopefully, we are knocking off some of these people that...
Bruce Batt:
Yes, it is a funny kind of thing, you lose these people but you lose votes, you lose part of your voice. So, it is kind of a...
Interviewer #1:
Sure, yes, it is kind of a Catch-22. Bruce Batt:
You don't want them out there because they affect your reputation.
Interviewer #1:
But, for every guy that you lose that used to spend $15, I think the guys that are willing to get involved in the standard, maybe it will only be 60,000 instead of 135,000 in 10 years, or maybe it would be 75,000, but I think most guys are willing to cough up a few extra chips to keep it going if they have to. I mean, like these guys, whatever. I mean, if a license, we are talking about this season closure for 3 years and I don't think there is one here that would say, "Boy, if that would work, we'd go along with it."
Bruce Batt:
That is a Northern attitude, though.
Interviewer #1:
Well, yeah.
Bruce Batt:
Minnesota and North Dakota would feel that way, and maybe guys in Wisconsin, I don't know. But, you get past Iowa, nobody wants to talk about that.
Interviewer #1:
Well, yeah, when the other states are giving you the shaft too, and here you are trying to police yourself and you're watching, you know, and put pressure on these other guys.
Bruce Batt:
The problem is it is migratory game, it's not resident.
Steve: The same thing in that 4 o'clock closing that we, that there apparently could be a difference because of the number of ducks that come back in the next spring are increased in Minnesota, but we are not sure the men down South are shooting at them.
Bruce Batt:
Your 4 o'clock closure started when?
Steve:
Probably about 8 years ago.
Interviewer #1:
About 5, 6, 7 years ago.
Steve:
Quite awhile, it's clear it made a difference.
Bruce Batt:
But that's the trouble with waterfowl management is there is always things that happen at the same time. Yeah, you close at 4 o'clock, but you also have the wettest 5 years that you have ever had too, so you have had the best condition in breeding waterfowl, so that they come back. So, in conclusion, is that it is probably both things contributing one to the other, but habitat makes a lot of difference.
Interviewer #1: Can you encourage us, I hope, about we have been trying to sell an idea, I think I mentioned, on being designation for this lake and tell people it is important that in the spring for the birds to be in good shape when they get up to Minnesota, so we can should (?) the carp, get the food back in the lakes, we should do this, that it is biologically sound, isn't it?
Bruce Batt:
Yes, it is clear and obvious with the geese. I mean, the connections are well established for the geese. The research connections are less clear cut with the ducks, but it is a logical and consistent argument by looking at the birds in spring, especially the big ducks, the mallards and the canvasbacks, because the big ducks transport nutrients in their body which they use for laying once they get here. The small ducks don't because they can't. I mean they depend on food in their breeding grounds for breeding, for nesting, for their eggs. But the big ducks, I think it's a pretty good argument. That is what I would say, that is the logical point that I would try to make to them. Ducks are never in any better condition then they are right in the spring.
Interviewer #1:
You are an avid duck hunter yourself, aren’t you?
Bruce Batt:
Yes, by Canadian standards, I mean I hunt once a week.
Interviewer #1:
That is how I got started. I know Roger started out....
End of dictation.....
Key Words: Bruce Batt, canvasback recovery; waterfowl management; waterfowl breeding grounds; migratory waterfowl stop-over lakes; Canadian Wildlife Service; prairie waterfowl populations; 1949 canvasback concept; Lake Hazel canvasback population; Lake Moore canvasback population; Lake Christina canvasback population; 1949 canvasback population; Atlantic Flyaway; canvasback habitat control; Prairie Pothole Country; pesticides such as DVT and Furadan effects on waterfowl; predators effect on waterfowl; diver duck hunting in the Dell Marsh; canvasback breeding; blue-winged teal; bluebill duck; Manitoba waterfowl; Saskatchewan waterfowl; Alberta waterfowl; lead shot waterfowl studies