I see quite a few saying losing RF is fine because it didn't really change gameplay that much and I have to ask...which of our CDs actually changes our gameplay at all? RF at least had a noticeable effect on your cast time and Focus regen. Stampede and Crows are basically just DoTs with cool visual effects.

I agree. Stampede especially is probably the most mindless button we have but it gets to stay as a talent because it.....has more visual flair attached to it?

I will eat, sleep, and breathe Dark Souls 3.
Add me on the PSN for jolly-cooperation @ PuppetShoJustice

To be fair. Rapid Fire is a very boring cooldown that does not add any new element of gameplay, so I am quite happy that they are removing it together with most other cooldowns in the game.

I think Rapid Fire removal for SV and BM was the right call because BM already has an haste cd and for SV RP never felt belonged to the spec, but they should really keep it for MM as its a hard-casting spec and a CD that increases haste makes the rotation feels better and overall a good gameplay for the spec.

I think Rapid Fire removal for SV and BM was the right call because BM already has an haste cd and for SV RP never felt belonged to the spec, but they should really keep it for MM as its a hard-casting spec and a CD that increases haste makes the rotation feels better and overall a good gameplay for the spec.

All dots will scale dynamically in WOD and they will also be tuned properly to deal the proper dmg.
For instance the new change is a huge nerf for affliction warlocks since they were able to soul swap and keep their dots with trinket proccs foverer.

- - - Updated - - -

We also lost stampede not completely but it's a talent now in the same tier as AMOC so you can't have both anymore.
It will come down to the needs of the fight more sustained or more burst.

Which are again, both incredibly brainless cooldowns like most of them in the game as of 5.4

Removing as many of those as possible to reset the game for more intelligent additions in the future is an absolute godsend.

Well, you could always be like Spriests and have no cd's and do mediocre to poop damage instead. But since I can't remember a time hunters didn't do very good damage, I think you need to go light a candle and offer up a prayer of thanksgiving if hunters wind up "like warlocks".

Spriest damage is fine and they have lots of utility right now. They are one of the highest dps hybrids out there.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by mistahwilshire

Which are again, both incredibly brainless cooldowns like most of them in the game as of 5.4

Removing as many of those as possible to reset the game for more intelligent additions in the future is an absolute godsend.

Except there not doing this in favor of more intelligent additions. They are just removing them because they think we have too many buttons and simply not replacing them with 'more intelligent abilities'.

“Humanism means that the man is the measure of all things...But it is not only that man must start from himself in the area of knowledge and learning, but any value system must come arbitrarily from man himself by arbitrary choice.” - Francis A. Schaeffer

Maybe slightly better on a multi target fight but right now they're bottom of the barrel single target dps.

How many purely single target fights are there right now? I see what you mean in single targets fights, like on iron juggernaut where they are 9th from last, but overall dps wise (according to raidbots) they are 10th from the top, which isn't bad for having so much utility, and only being behind 2 other hybrid specs. You're middle of the pack on average and have some of the most utility in the game, next to shamans and druids. There are multiple specs that have less DPS than you and less utility than you.

Last edited by spinner981; 2014-04-24 at 05:17 PM.

“Humanism means that the man is the measure of all things...But it is not only that man must start from himself in the area of knowledge and learning, but any value system must come arbitrarily from man himself by arbitrary choice.” - Francis A. Schaeffer

How many purely single target fights are there right now? I see what you mean in single targets fights, like on iron juggernaut where they are 9th from last, but overall dps wise (according to raidbots) they are 10th from the top, which isn't bad for having so much utility, and only being behind 2 other hybrid specs. You're middle of the pack on average and have some of the most utility in the game, next to shamans and druids. There are multiple specs that have less DPS than you and less utility than you.

shouldn't trust raidbots, they fetch data from WoL and there's so many hacked/cheesed/bugged parses from there.

Honestly have you ever played a shadow priest? Any slight hint of movement and your dps goes down the toilet.

Except there not doing this in favor of more intelligent additions. They are just removing them because they think we have too many buttons and simply not replacing them with 'more intelligent abilities'.

How often do you use RF "intelligently" as opposed to just stacking it on top of other cooldowns? Or just using it on cooldown itself?

The effects of it's removal aren't happenstance, they're deliberate. All of them. There were basically 3 goals with Hunters:

Removing this one ability actually furthers all 3 of those goals. RF wasn't a button that anyone really thought much about. You either stacked it with other stuff, or used it on cooldown. And it didn't even do that much for you, especially if you weren't MM. Reason #1 alone put it on the chopping block. Because it was one of only 2 baseline dps cooldowns we had, it's removal (along with stampedes move) results in all remaining CD's being talents or spec specific (and by the way, ancient hysteria is being given to non-exotic pets, so you could call that "baseline" now anyway). That A) makes talent choice a little more interesting and B) helps differentiate the specs. BM now stands out as the "cooldown" spec, due to having both Bestial Wrath and Frenzy/Focus Fire. Of course other changes also happened to assist with #2. And finally, simply, it's removal freed up a keybind. Maybe not for everyone, but for a LOT of people.

So what are the downsides? Well SV and MM lost some burst ability, but only slightly, as there's still talents, trinkets, and pots for when burst is needed. And that's pretty much it. We didn't lose what I would call a signature ability, and damage is irrelevant at this point. The real reason most people are against changes like this is simply because it's a change. We don't generally like change until it's forced upon us and we see first hand that everything is still ok.

- The Hunter's Creed -
"This is my pet. There are many others like him, but this one is mine. He is my best friend. He is my life. I must master him as I master my life.
My pet, without me, is useless. Without my pet, I am useless."

shouldn't trust raidbots, they fetch data from WoL and there's so many hacked/cheesed/bugged parses from there.

Honestly have you ever played a shadow priest? Any slight hint of movement and your dps goes down the toilet.

Hacked/cheesed/bugged parses? Wouldn't that mean that the other classes also have hacked/cheesed/bugged parses? What do you expect me to trust? Your personal experience or raidbots?

As far as the movement thing goes, that's the deal with every class. Whether you have 100% mobility or 2% mobility, blizzard factors that into your class balance. More mobility isn't just free dps, it only exists because the class is weaker in standstill compared to classes that are weak on movement fights. Once again, there are a bunch of multi-target fights this tier and shadow is not doing terribly. It probably has a higher skill cap than some other classes, but that just leaves you more room for improvement. Same thing with mobility. The less mobility you have, the more blizzard compensates you in stand still, and the less mobility you have, the more skill you can apply to moving to achieve the most you can during mandatory movement, which is something a hunter can't do.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by Cyph3r

How often do you use RF "intelligently" as opposed to just stacking it on top of other cooldowns? Or just using it on cooldown itself?

The effects of it's removal aren't happenstance, they're deliberate. All of them. There were basically 3 goals with Hunters:

Removing this one ability actually furthers all 3 of those goals. RF wasn't a button that anyone really thought much about. You either stacked it with other stuff, or used it on cooldown. And it didn't even do that much for you, especially if you weren't MM. Reason #1 alone put it on the chopping block. Because it was one of only 2 baseline dps cooldowns we had, it's removal (along with stampedes move) results in all remaining CD's being talents or spec specific (and by the way, ancient hysteria is being given to non-exotic pets, so you could call that "baseline" now anyway). That A) makes talent choice a little more interesting and B) helps differentiate the specs. BM now stands out as the "cooldown" spec, due to having both Bestial Wrath and Frenzy/Focus Fire. Of course other changes also happened to assist with #2. And finally, simply, it's removal freed up a keybind. Maybe not for everyone, but for a LOT of people.

So what are the downsides? Well SV and MM lost some burst ability, but only slightly, as there's still talents, trinkets, and pots for when burst is needed. And that's pretty much it. We didn't lose what I would call a signature ability, and damage is irrelevant at this point. The real reason most people are against changes like this is simply because it's a change. We don't generally like change until it's forced upon us and we see first hand that everything is still ok.

First of all, no, removing rapid fire from all three specs did not differentiate the specs. I am not saying that I don't support the removal of RF. What I am saying is that this is NOT a movement towards more intelligent cooldowns and gameplay; it is a movement towards simpler gameplay and that's pretty much it.

“Humanism means that the man is the measure of all things...But it is not only that man must start from himself in the area of knowledge and learning, but any value system must come arbitrarily from man himself by arbitrary choice.” - Francis A. Schaeffer

First of all, no, removing rapid fire from all three specs did not differentiate the specs. I am not saying that I don't support the removal of RF. What I am saying is that this is NOT a movement towards more intelligent cooldowns and gameplay; it is a movement towards simpler gameplay and that's pretty much it.

Yes, exactly, because simpler gameplay is exactly their goal. Simple =/= shallow. Reducing the number of dps cooldowns we have means we have to be more careful with the ones we do have, and make sure to make the absolute most of them. I'd bet my mounts that we'll still see bosses with burn phases. Consider this: right now X class has say 4 dps cooldowns. They can afford to use 1, maybe even 2 of those early in a fight and still have 2 in reserve for the burn phase. Say they forgot and used one early, or someone screwed up and let and add go, so they used it to squash him fast, or whatever. Burn phase arrives, and you've still got options. Now suddenly that same class has one dps cooldown. If you use it early, or screw up and don't have it available for that burn phase, you've screwed up bad. Reducing the number we have available makes things simpler in that we no longer have to worry about macro'ing them together, or what we should stack them with, etc. But it also places more importance on what remains. There's less room for error. In terms of proper use of said cooldowns, things have gotten harder, while also getting less complex. That's the goal.

- The Hunter's Creed -
"This is my pet. There are many others like him, but this one is mine. He is my best friend. He is my life. I must master him as I master my life.
My pet, without me, is useless. Without my pet, I am useless."

While I agree that RF was rather boring as a CD, it did allow for a moment of burst that lined up well with trinket procs, etc., especially in openers in PVE. With that gone, I would prefer a new, perhaps most interesting CD for each spec.