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#416 – Sam Cavanagh On Content Teams/

#416 – Sam Cavanagh On Content Teams/

August 6, 2019

Sam Cavanagh is one of the top content heads in Australia, and an expert in creative team management. Sam produced the largest radio show in Australia, Hamish and Andy, and was the national executive producer on Triple M’s Kennedy Molloy drive show.

After some work at ad agency, Thinkerbell, Sam is now back at SCA to head up their new on demand audio.

On today’s episode of The Daily Talk Show we discuss:

– Make sense of a project early on
– Leading creative teams
– Learnings from changing industries
– Anxiety and mental health
– Sam Cavanagh’s new role at SCA
– Media without boundaries
– Favourite moments at Hamish and Andy
– Organised August

Sam on Twitter: https://twitter.com/samcav

Sam on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/samcav22/

Lost Connections Book: https://thelostconnections.com/

Email us: hi@thedailytalkshow.com

Send us mail: PO BOX 400, Abbotsford VIC 3067

A conversation sometimes worth recording with mates Tommy Jackett & Josh Janssen. Each weekday, Tommy & Josh chat about life, creativity, business and relationships — big questions and banter. Regularly visited by guests and friends of the show! This is The Daily Talk Show.

This podcast is produced by BIG MEDIA COMPANY. Find out more at https://bigmediacompany.com/

0:03
It's the daily Talk Show Episode 416. And Sam Kevin is in the building. Finally. Yeah.

0:11
Yeah. Hey, yes, me. Oh, look, I'm feeling really, really confused. Yeah. I mean, I was asking a lot of questions when I got here because of driving in. I like to be prepared. Yeah. And I'm and I was listening to some some episodes and I was like, I've got no fucking idea what we're going to talk about. Yeah the way that's the beauty of the show. actually want to give you a sense of what it's like. Yeah. 97 we had a statement from Ben Fordham. In regards to

0:40
the show. We've got the gronk squad and all that sort of thing has been a bit of a war going on because we started giving people titles I Queen gronk King gronk show. And

0:52
anytime there's, you know, that hierarchy, it can cause problems. I'm sure you had you interviewed race Masterson.

1:00
Very familiar with Rasmus and the producer met what was like the producer. Conference. Yeah, so semi tab is like the for people who aren't in Australia is like the number one content head or I can Australia like it you had high mission that you're the executive producer of Hamish and Andy, I recommend for people in Australia. It's with

1:21
number one. Hey, I reckon you out I think if you look if you, you are my producer. Yeah, but you, if you look at Hamish and Andy, which was the most successful radio show in Australia, that's fair to say. Yeah, but it's not fair to give me your credit. You were there, the early days, the inception show, and the producer is a integral a crucial part of any team and it's the thing we have missing, even though he calls himself a producer. And so anyway, it looks much more professional than I ever did with the hair and I had some pretty crazy here. That's true. But anyway, so you talked when you

2:00
You had raised mass and on stage we're talking about the importance of naming your audience how did you remember that? I mean

2:09
we all remember it says everyone

2:11
is based on not listening

2:15
to you I get to take credit for this

2:18
mission and

2:21
that's actually gonna be quoted on radio tonight

2:25
so anyway you talked about Yeah, I think what is the master night is what do they call What does it

2:40
the secret dirty mess tonight?

2:43
He hadn't had anything

2:46
yet so it was a little little something. There's a little monsters which was 90 seconds. Can you have a look at what Google race Meston fans name? I see what comes up. little messed up. Yeah. Anyway, so we like

3:00
ended on the gronk squad and I think that where we went wrong was trying to differentiate levels and have high right you had you said some you have a favourite child and exactly your other kids and not wrapped yet up but the thing is how about calling out a favourite child and then they actually say I don't want to be the favourite I want favourites because that's what's actually happened. Did you find out about the race messin? No not yet. strange little Maurice messin isn't SEO is not what it is. Yeah, maybe we could do some SEO What? Can you read out? The Ben Fordham statement place? Yeah, boy, boys. He's semi OP. Having listened to the lightest podcast, I would like to clear something up while I'm flooded, being included in all the talk of kings and queens have never sought high office in this great community and have no interest in such a role. Yeah, it goes against who I am and what I stand for. He's getting some hope.

3:58
Why? Well, let me extend

4:01
I'm just one of the gronk I'm an everyday gronk a gronk amongst gronk all the other gronk know what I'm talking about. I maybe I may be a proud and passionate gronk sure, but I'm still just one of the gronk that's what gronk love about being a gronk It doesn't matter what we do or where we come from. When we're together in this place, we're all just gronk

4:24
Jesus

4:29
so God spammy any special privileges leave me off the VIP list. I've got no interest in the pomp and pageantry, just let me be a gronk that's all I've ever wanted. Let the others fight it out for the titles of King and Queen because I'm happy where I am with all the gronk just being gronk pace Ben photo. It was also he's WPM he's words per minute. Quite slide. That was that was beautiful. Anyway, so why we've landed yesterday, I said why are we talking about race message

5:00
Well because they pointing out the fact that we've got our own master

5:06
tonight is he gonna be kind of keep defining he's he's taking was the mess

5:12
so i mean i guess for me this show makes less sense the longer I'm on

5:18
anyway all you need to know that based on everything that happened Gemma watts is still the Queen gronk we got a bunch of pushback on that. I agree that's all fine. She's done to get that she's been on the show probably 10 times many many times big supporter you know, spreading the word she organised for Mr. 97 to have his hair coloured by Australia's number one colours on it. Okay, listen to it's hard. It's hard to you know, Trump her Yeah, it's not gonna happen. Yeah. So what have you thought because you it was your idea to remove it or what?

5:50
I was just over the bullshit. And so but I'm happy with where it stands because the amount of flack that we got for removing hierarchies completely comfortable with the gym. FA

6:00
Okay, I've been paid fighter that no, no more fighting. Anyway, that's the only address that we have. So you know it's important to me you so you were there at the very start of how we say it and you look at us I'm not comparing us the confusion you see the mission which one's

6:19
work actually said, You look like Hamish

6:22
Hamish. I'm taking.

6:26
I can take it. I will Hamish.

6:28
Know, the confusion you say with us and what we're doing in the space, you've walked into what we're creating early days, did it make sense with what was happening around Hamish and Andy?

6:41
Did it make sense?

6:44
Look, I guess I'd answer that bargain. Trying to remember it was 16 years ago, maybe 14 years ago. We

6:55
Hey, Mitch came in. I was working on the Breakfast Show on Fox FM and I was absolutely

7:00
The kicker,

7:02
the lowly assistant producer, and then you've got your hip blonde and funnily enough, I didn't. And I just like to say my son that is bullying.

7:14
If you want to talk to an actual professional about that,

7:18
yeah, notice that I'm here to help. Deal is actually looking after a life.

7:24
That's good.

7:26
And yeah, so hey, Mitch came in as a writer on the show. We'd been mates. And he brought Andy in, they started doing some stuff at night. And then it moved to Sunday mornings and then art so I was producing Dr. Sean triple m at the time, and then on Saturday mornings, where we're doing Saturday morning, Hamish and Andy. And the beauty of it was we had about two and a half years with no one really paying any attention. We got to kind of just do a thing. I remember we would do the show would go for two or three hours, I'm not really sure and then we would go out for breakfast and celebrate pretty much every show like

8:01
So much fun, and no one really gave a shit or paid any attention. So we've got to make some mistakes, we got to just try stuff. It was just not serious. There's no writings.

8:14
And I think that period of us working at how we operated as a team working at what the show was, while doing the show was was, I think really similar to what you guys are doing.

8:26
You know, you don't have the pressure of someone, you know, telling you this is what the show should sound like. This is what the audience should be this is you know, how you have to work together. You get to just there's no way to learn that stuff. Better than just getting on and doing it. Well. You're You're underplaying your involvement in the whole thing. But Jay Hawkins was on the show the other day and he was talking about he Yeah, he literally take took his whole team from New Zealand to Melbourne to start the breakfast show here. Yeah, I mean, it shows the importance around

9:00
You well radio is a team sport like, you know, you're making two or three hours of live content every single day.

9:08
If I always say you look at all successful shows and teams, the shows that are successful have really good teams behind them.

9:18
And it's because you got to rely on each other it's such a weed being to put two people in a room and then broadcast that to a city and they have to get along they have to find each other charming and funny and charismatic and if the team behind them isn't supportive and and tuned into what they need it's it's a shift for us real quick it what's interesting though, because in my head start with friendship is probably where to start. It's the most important key to it all. But then there's the Tracy and Matt that the rumours of they didn't like each other, you know, the, and even Jace, we brought up somebody who they did it remote. He worked on a show where they did it in different states because they had it each other a gossip heavy.

10:01
But then the product somehow works, which I think it's yet to be made. Do you have to be nice? Did you have to be friends? I mean, it depends what you're trying to create. You guys are trying to create a lifestyle for you, Sophia, so you want to be friends, but you can make interesting content with people who disagree. I mean, I don't watch it. But there's a lot of reality TV out there that would suggest that people fighting is good today. Yeah. There's obviously an audience for that. Maybe we looking at the metric of success a successful Breakfast Show that doesn't like each other as French friends. It sounds good. numbers. Sounds great. So there's things I mean, for me, that's not success. I'm working. You probably got me the job and shipping and putting in some good words. You're welcome. You definitely saved me the job ones when you get a call from my boss.

10:49
Oh, we should go there. I could call this No, no, no, no. What did you do with candy still on that show? And it just it wasn't being a baby.

11:00
It wasn't like it wasn't going well. But then she called you the GM of the business called you and you had a waltz. That's right, stop. That's right. Because she was yelling. She was really annoyed at you. What the fuck is Tommy? shipping and

11:18
upset people? So yeah. Do you remember what it was? Oh, no.

11:22
We it just wasn't working. And I think it was functional, but I don't think you were the most dysfunctional part of that. I mean, how, how do you if there is a team that's dysfunctional? How do you identify what the issue is and actually resolve it? I just like a good blinding session. Yeah.

11:41
Yeah.

11:43
Yeah, we missed it, too. Yeah. We could do it as a special

11:48
will save you so. Thank you.

11:51
So what was the Christian? Like, how do you identify you know, there's a dysfunctional team. How do you fix it? Okay, well,

12:00
There's no short answer that I have worked with lots of teams that have been going through problems. And generally I try to try to get some consensus around, what is the show we're trying to make every day. Like if you can get the team greying on this is the shorter show we want to make, and then get them agreeing on this is the sort of team we want to be involved in. And it's kind of objective and and everyone agrees on that, then it just feels a lot less personal. So if you're like, Okay with that's what we've agreed on that you know, what this is, this is the sort of content we're going to bring every day. These are the sort of conversations we're going to have. This is how we're going to deal with it when we get the shits with each other because I mean, like if you're in a Breakfast Show, like just think about the sleep deprivation, you know, like you did it, it's it's, it's so easy to get the shit like so if you haven't had a conversation when you're kind of awake and it's not in the heat of the moment about here's what we're going to do when things

13:00
go bad, it's no wonder that it gets toxic really quickly. So I facilitate lots of conversations like that doesn't always work. But sometimes it gives teams just something to look at the external. So when they're feeling frustrated or annoyed or like they're not being heard, this is something you can come back to the Tim black and white that you've agreed on at a time when things weren't bad. And that often helps people have better conversations, Tadworth things out working either from success metric point of view, like if you're not getting the ratings, and you're annoyed with each other, like you could see how that would spirals room. They also need good leadership, like we've got a bunch of people who listen who are on regional breakfast shows and things like that. If they're like talent, and they're feeling these issues. How do you do it from because I guess you're looking at from that leadership perspective, can a single person within an on air team, make that change? It's really hard but I mean, this

14:00
thing I always come back to is these conversations. So if you're talking about having conversations with someone you're annoyed at, right?

14:07
Those conversations are a skill that you it's not an innate thing. It's something you need to practice. It's something you need education around.

14:17
It's ridiculous decide a

14:21
breakfast show that's not getting along. You guys just need to sort this out. Like, it's a little bit like saying, You guys just need to be a lot funnier. Yeah. Or you need to speak Japanese. Like it's a skill, all the advice he gave us when he walked in.

14:34
But it's a skill that if you haven't had any practice or training in it's, it's, it's not going to work. So the approach to that would be if you are original Breakfast Show, and it's not working. It's like, Where am I going to get that education? How am I going to practice those conversations? I think that's that's where I would start and you know, the success of Hamish and Andy

15:00
Absolutely they put the effort in to all the office shit. Like all the difficult things of making stuff together and having Creative Conversations all day, every day, like they put the effort in to getting all of those skills, right, as well as their performance skills and comedy skills and writing skills. Was it was the vision there was the long term vision? No, I don't think there was any long term vision other than we had worked on dysfunctional teams, and knew that that's not what we wanted. Yeah, you know, so we'd worked within teams where people didn't get along, and we saw how fun that was. Yeah. And so we fumbled our way through trying to create a better environment, I guess. And none of us came into this knowing anything, but we figured it out along the way because we knew what we didn't want.

15:53
So it's funny, these creative jobs, there's a there's a real piece of self development in them. You learn how

16:00
So it's a really good point lean into uncomfortable conversations. You know what it is? I think about this a lot. And I think it's because in a creative team, it's much less clear. There's a better way to put that sentence, but it's never clear what's right or wrong. Yeah. But Josh could come in and say, we should do a show on

16:17
pets. And you could come in and say, I think that's really boring. And you both right. So if once more, right.

16:28
Because it's creative. Like if the conversation was if this was a business that was selling cops, you know, yeah, it's kind of it's not personal. And the success metric isn't, you know, what's funnier? What's more interesting, it's what's going to sell more. So it's I think it's easier to

16:49
facilitate through those conversations, but you're right if it's a creative thing, so much subjective multiple truth. Yeah. So does that mean that as a producer, is it then you're wrong?

17:00
Decide, okay, Tommy, you're saying this Josh, you're saying this? This is actually what's right. No, no, I'm never never pretend that I know what's right. So what? how did how do you actually get to a conclusion? in those conversations, I'm just trying to make sure everyone's hearing what each other saying. And, and, and trying to be one step removed. And going, I think what you're actually saying is this, but this might be how it's being heard, or this is how it feels. When you say that, or I'm, in fact, I'm not a psychologist or anything like that. But yet, and I'm not trying to decide what's right. I'm just trying to get people into an environment where they can actually have a conversation. Over years. You see, you're testing and learning with that idea. So you're seeing what lands what sticks 1000 is the markers Do you think for a good idea, like for me, personally, I know the videos that have gone viral. I had a feeling about them. I just was convinced in some ways. This is great. Like I and I've had that same feeling across the three ones.

18:00
I've done. And I don't know how to quite articulate. It's like a thought about the idea that I become obsessed with chicken and egg thing. And I'm loving it, which comes first? Is that the great idea or the passion that you bring to it executed? And you put it out in the world as well? Is it? Have you seen any of us in terms of identifying a good idea?

18:21
Look, I've got lots of ideas about it. There's no science, or there's no exact science to it. But I would say if you looked at those three videos, you would easily be able to draw comparisons between the three around, it's not just your enthusiasm. If our enthusiasm was all that took for an idea to be successful, then it would be easy, but if you looked at those three ideas, there would be some kind of creative points that would be similar between the three and that absolutely. The effort you put behind it, is the difference between things being successful or not. But you know, there'd be some sort of creative tension, the way you set the idea up the payoff.

19:00
There be things in there that that would be similar. So I think, um, yeah, definitely. I mean, what I liked about the ones referring to I tested, and I, and I tested some of my thinking around links and how long things should be and how long and i and i went against it on purpose and they land you no longer video worked. Yes, like when everyone's telling you shorter, shorter, shorter. And so this is where the confusion you feel about what we're doing is what we feel in some, in some instances because I think it relates to this creative world where a lot of us are now living in we're It doesn't make sense. Yeah, but we're feeling it. We're feeling we're evolving it ass. And we put and we're putting our foot forward and trying and I guess if you look at it through that sort of industrial black and white lens, I think so many things would creative awesome. things wouldn't happen right? Because some of the best stuff doesn't make any sense at all. Huh? This big one

20:00
brand you know, early days today

20:03
we're extremely comfortable. Well, I've just recommend How many years have I known you?

20:08
will be seven years. More than that. When was angels? Yeah 2012 you wearing it at not not wearing a jumper? That was exactly the same. Yeah, I haven't really changed. Yeah, but the I feel like your glasses are a bit more snazzy. Yeah, these are actually Steve Jobs. The specific

20:27
and he doesn't waste snap backs anymore. Because he loves

20:31
that, but what about that photo you put on Instagram from Thailand? Wow. Yeah, my biggest question around that photo is and I this might be too personal to answer. But you with Bry? Yeah, yeah, so did did Bry have her own challenges at that time or not like crazy other than having me as a boyfriend? What's fascinating braces? She does she doesn't remember that. Yeah. So you shows just a bad photo.

21:07
my personality? Well, I mean, sure to get them now. 15 Okay 1616 and said to assign some sort of 10 year contract,

21:20
long term commitment. I think it was. I mean, the interesting thing is you look back at these things and these things creep up on you, right? Because these

21:32
incremental is this incremental thing, right, where it's like, it's the day today, you're talking about work. Well, wait. Yeah. Right. And so I think that, because of that, I think I'm conscious, constantly aware. And that's why I think with the show, like part of it is just showing up every day is because you know that those little incremental things actually have these massive impacts that we don't actually say, especially because we're in it. You had a big life change after spending

22:00
You know, a good portion of your adult life in radio, you decided to try something completely different when to think about Yep. What was that experience? Like? It was amazing. So think Bell is is this incredible Creative Advertising Agency? Not too far from here.

22:18
And yeah, look, I'd been producing radio shows like the day to day radio show for 16 years. And I've done lots of other things like I've had companies I've, you know, I've got a little Podcast Network as well. You've got a criminology degree. I have criminology degree. Have you been wicked petering? Now, I just

22:39
so like, I mean, I just say that I've been on boards. I've tried to not be too in the bubble. But I wanted to do something different. So you went over his head of production, I think. And it's very hard to put into words, just how much you learn when you change industries. Like it's like learning another language. It was

23:00
Even though a lot of my skills were really transferable in advertising, and think about it's really setting itself up to try and break the model of what an advertising agency isn't does. And I really focused on, you know, multi platform content solutions, not as well as traditional advertising. And so, you know, we did some amazing things with one of the first ideas I worked on. The idea was we would find Australia's coldest town, which is this place called water in Tasmania. Have you seen the video? Yeah, so a little bit.

23:37
I saw it because actually, you had was it sunrise or today? I'm back on Sam. Yeah, he was. He was as part of the whole thing. He actually went to the town. Yeah, yeah. So live on live on sunrise. We've managed to get this whole town together. And it's like this places in the on the west coast of Tasmania, population about 100 it rains three

24:00
117 days a year. It's fucking cold. Like I was like it. I think that could be because we're talking about me one day having sort of some form of is dn line where I just sort of have my own studio. It just kind of keeps disappearing into your own

24:16
that creeps up on you that Thailand photo

24:19
because I'll be walking guys riding that you don't want to fucking raincoat

24:24
it sounds beautiful. It's not

24:27
and, and the whole idea was we would surprise them with a holiday to the Gold Coast, but I had to leave immediately. So thinking through the logistics of getting 70 people on camera on live TV ready to go and get on a private plane in two hours time. It's got a radio vibe with the massive, massive Yeah, so you know, and then they had this incredible weekend on the Gold Coast. We filmed the whole thing, turn that into social content for call wasn't tells you. So that was a good example of getting to come in and problem solving a whole new industry and a whole new world.

25:00
of how we going to do this, how's it going to look? You know, how are we going to get people? Like what if people turn up and they forgotten their medication or they've left their dog at home? Or, you know, how do you give people enough information, so they're prepared, but no deaths on the trip? It was 00 deaths. I'd like to switch switching roles or industry. Seth Godin talks a lot about status and things like that. Was there a status shift that went on from You are the top dog at Southern Cross?

25:35
office? I said top dog you said yes, yes. Yes.

25:39
So what was the What was this? massive I mean, I had and I knew going in, but it's one thing to know it cognitively. It's another thing to actually live it and how I mean, it wasn't so much about status, but just the emotional exhaustion of not knowing what the fuck is going on. Yeah, all day every day like people

26:00
That talking a language and you sort of get it. But you constantly have an ask, what does that mean? What does that mean? How do I do that? Where do I find that? Who's that person? What was that you're talking about? Like, it's just exhausting. And so I guess there was the status shift, but it was more just,

26:18
it took a long time to really be able to, for the simple things to be simple. You know what I mean? Like when you guys walk in here, you there's things that you know how to set up that are just second nature to you. And there's heaps of my previous career that was second nature to me. Yeah. And walking into a new industry. It's just this whole other part of your brain that turns on because nothing is second nature that we just go home every night exhausted. Yes. Yeah. And how longs it take, what's that? I recognise just starting to get the hang of it six months in. Yeah. It's just starting to, as I say, for the simple things to be simple.

26:57
So yeah, it took it took a while.

27:00
But in that time, we still made some incredible things like it was this beautiful combination with they were very open. And in encouraging of the fact that because I hadn't I didn't have the industry experience, I was able to see things in a different way. So that idea of how do you get a town from it to be, you know, I was able to bring a whole lot of different thinking into that because, you know, in radio, you constantly trying to figure out which should what's your visceral response to problems? have you built a muscle where your reflex becomes Great, let's solve it. Or a you know, because I feel sometimes when we go into a video project is I, you know, it's like you can be sort of, it's like an injection of engine anxiety. Not that it happens all the time, but you I've watched myself have that response regularly where I've needed to pull myself up to say, problems aren't bad. Yeah, problems that just press it and we need to work.

28:00
Especially when you've been doing it for a while, because you've seen all the problems. You've seen all the fuck up. So there is something nice about my younger people coming into a thing without really any sense of like, I haven't had anything going right. Yeah, being naive is such a weapon. Like I reckon a lot of the early stuff we did with high mission it was, we were so lucky that we were naive. And we didn't quite know or care how difficult things would be. And to in them, I remember very vividly the very first caravan of courage when we were over in America. And the whole idea was we would drive for sort of, you know, six hours, six to eight hours, and then we would try and record a whole lot of content and we try and edit some of that content. And then the boys would, like do the live show, and we'd insert packages and stuff. And we just massively underestimated how long it would take. So the first day we're in this caravan park, it's like three

29:00
In the morning, we've been going all day, the gears not working properly. We're in a caravan. It's about 40 degrees, we're getting attacked by mosquitoes. And just going we're about to do this for two weeks. This is only

29:15
and just those a real moment of mu.

29:19
But it would got through that. And I remember our tech will strong You have made him Yeah, it was great. Yeah, he was just amazing at trying to get all the good work. And, you know, we're trying to connect it in lines and stuff. Anyway, we've got that show through and then just had a real kind of come to Jesus meeting around. Let's just be a little bit clearer with what are we trying to do every day because we just can't do and the guys are trying to make a TV show at the same time. So what are your towels when you're, you know, the the first day on a project when you're stressed? How do you notice personally? That's a great question. What am I tells when I'm stressed

29:59
I tend to

30:00
I don't I mean, I think live radio is a really good environment, because it's because it's so fast paced, and it's a bit disposable, like it doesn't really matter. Like if you fuck something up, you get a chance to do something else. The next minute, it's not like a video project where if we fuck this up, we sort of it's gone. And then we have to start again it so I don't get too stressed about things going wrong, I get stressed about Well, one of the things that was really stressful about changing careers was this whole new relationship with clients was a really difficult thing to get my head around because like when you're just making your own stuff, such a luxury it is but having to be just adding adding a whole other layer of bringing a client along for the journey was it was a huge education that was quite stressful.

30:57
So what are you doing? What does that look like your brain

31:00
Funny waking up during the not lack of sleep Yeah, definitely I went through a real period through that job of moving a town from one place to another of just just waking up at two in the morning. I

31:16
haven't thought about that. What if? What if 110 personality of a 10 person look after their dog and then they both win the trim? Well, no, we haven't thought about that. You know, and so lack of sleep some big one. What have you What's the antidote?

31:30
I do not know. I actually went to the doctor yesterday.

31:34
No shit and said I'm sort of struggling with sleeping a bit and she's she prescribed melatonin Hey, have you tried a Melatonin is good for like jet lag and things like that because it sort of set what sun Well, yeah, it releases melatonin. Yeah. Or ecstasy.

31:52
There's, you can also it's good to like, get off the blue lights and shit on your phones and stuff all night. I guess that's no I put the phone away.

32:00
Now before we go to bed, then it's the lack of sleep that then it just compounds. Yeah. And then yeah, I feel like I was signed to 97 the other day for me. I it's before I'm having the lack of sleep nice. I'm stressing about the fact that I'm not going

32:16
just like if I'm working like no no, I have to get up in the morning. I shouldn't be tired yet. I'm fucking ready for it. I'm like, I'm gonna be so tired tomorrow. Yeah, RS babies made for living this lifestyle like leaving that Christian snowball effect. No sleep stress. Have you read lost connexion? No, that's a fucking great book lost Connexions. I forgot the guy's name. So I said we'll pull it out. Joe Henry, so on.

32:44
So he talks a lot about the how the modern world is creating depression and anxiety and how you know the way humans evolved over the last million years was a certain way around.

33:00
You know, certain Connexions to community, certain work life balance has Connexions to nature etc. And how we've just stripped so much of that out of, of how we live our day to day lives and how we treat depression. And anxiety is something that needs to be treated with medication and stopped when it's actually a very reasonable response to a lot of things that

33:23
to a lot of the ways that we're living anyway. Yeah. So I guess with him radio, mental health seems like it's a big issue, especially on a talent. People are wired. How do you how do you grapple with that, which is people who can be saying is doing fantastically well or whatever, but they're personally crumbling. What's your responsibility as a Christian as a producer? Yeah. Well, I look, a lot of what I talked a lot about as a radio producer was a focus on show and team. You probably remember from them from the

33:59
south

34:00
You know, that was always my approach as a producer that you always had to put as much effort into the show into the team as you did into the show. So if the show is the content and the thing that you're making every day, and then you have to put an equal amount of attention and energy into the team, which is the people you're working with, and the conversations that you're having, and how healthy is the environment that you're working in,

34:21
and just thinking about those two things, because I think radio is certainly guilty of taking people who are

34:29
different and and what makes them great performers is their ability to push boundaries and think differently and and often can have pretty complicated personalities in then we'll profit on them being really fantastic performance on the air. So we've got to also make sure we manage the downside of that you know, and manage what that means when those people are affair and feeling vulnerable and insecure and all of those things is

35:00
An amazing thing like you think about a rock star musician that brings someone so much joy. And so from the outside, you just they're experiencing a version. But then we find out that they're suffering and completely devastated with their own existence. Right. So that's so hard to get your head around. What seems like teams like having a great team, to your point, Tommy is the answer to that. Right. It's like, if it's the answer, but I think it's part of this. Yeah. Well, I think it's like for you and I, Josh, the meditation stuff I've been doing is definitely been my part of making this work. I think. I think Sam Harris is saying waking up. Every day so good. At what I've done 27 hours you can check you minutes. Oh, yeah. It's awesome.

36:01
You know what, why do you think that that because I've tried lots of different sorts of meditation and that one really stuck with me. I've always liked I like Sam, I like his voice. I think I respect him as, as a academic and so I but is it a bit of a Trojan horse to meditation because I've got the app and I'm like, I've been preparing to show I know, I think it works for me, like I've done Transcendental Meditation courses where you spend ridiculous amounts of money and it's like 1200 bucks. I know I think was like, two and a half grand. And you tell us you would you come up, you know, would

36:36
have fought

36:37
against again.

36:39
But I look, I did that for a little while, but it just didn't stick. But I think Sam Harris, it's that for people who have very analytical brains, he, he gives you a guided meditation, but he's also giving you a bit of an education around what is meditation at the same time. Yeah, so the party Brian, that's always been the meditating guy. I don't know if I'm doing this right.

37:00
should be like this Fuck, fact it now I'm not doing it. This is a waste of time. Yeah, he's he's guided meditation just keeps you, I guess feeling confident that you're that you're learning what meditation is? Well, yeah, because there are all those things are appearances in, in consciousness like Mr. 97 saying, I'm thinking about my breathing. So he's say it says, identify that first moment of your breath, but then you start thinking too much about trying to find that. But then that is a part of the whole process that's a part of this world. We live in consciousness and things are happening and all the emotional responses are no notifications within consciousness were identify. So what difference has it made you doing that? I think? I think it's definitely in one of these things. He talks about one of the benefits of meditation, and it's this alarm system that you've created. And when you have a practice that you do daily like meditation, or like a win

38:00
You know, you try. So basically you becoming aware of your shortfalls, or those responses that you have that come up naturally anger, all those things. I think I've become more aware of those responses that come up and not letting them take hold of me and then how I act. Yeah, but I think that that's like in the thing with the team dynamic. Like I reckon Tommy doing. Meditation has probably been the biggest impact on my life in the past, like three months, and it hasn't what was before? No, it was more. It wasn't. The funny thing is the way that Tommy's meditate that Tommy has done meditation doesn't mean that he was a problem and he's fixed it. He's worked out how to deal with me. So even though I'm fucking still outrageous and need to meditate, he doesn't respond to my anxiety react, and yet, and so if we can then have a conversation and so these, like we used to have blow up

39:00
All the time, we don't have like, it's just not a thing anymore. I think also send me one of the great benefits for me has been those moments where you you're thinking about work, you're feeling anxious about what you've got going on. And just being able to step back from that. And then just, I've been able to get out of those moments much, much quicker. And we still love to lean into shit. Like we're like, yeah, Bry was blown away. Because when she used to, like work on the occasion in our office, she would say, like, Tommy and I could be discussing something and we could spend four hours and it could take our whole like, half of our day bang, like, why we're doing it this way. Because we we straightaway blow it up to if we do it this way. It means all about this about the rest of our business and we're fucking everything's blown up, right? It's like a simple email. We didn't get back to that email. This means this. And now this is crisis, right? So we're just not having any crisis moments anymore. everything like that. And part of it is the team until

40:26
you talking about think about that was, you know, seven, seven or eight months of your life. You've got a great opportunity with sci fi talk about that a little bit. So yeah, SEO is essentially doubling down in the investment in on demand audio so they, which is podcasting streaming to you guys.

40:45
And as part of that, they've asked me to help come on board and create some new content. No, I haven't started yet. Don't start this is my week off. So this is my week of doing organised August Yeah. gronk organised August This is fucking great. Yeah.

41:00
Gives me a job

41:05
that I can talk about. But um, yeah, so I'll be I'll be joining the team there to just really help explode that out and figure out. So what are they thinking about? Like, is it obviously crime? podcaster going massive like is that? How much is that on your writer?

41:23
It's too premature for me to talk about what they're thinking about, like having started until next week. But in terms of my writer, I think it's really interesting that from moment in time, the biggest podcast in the world was an Australian storey produced in Australia by an Australian. That was it's just, you know, previously, I would have thought that that was just such a local thing that would never work overseas, but it became the biggest podcast in the world for a couple of weeks. What is this? Teachers pitches? I mean, how do we what I find interesting is those things feel like they can have that global audience say

42:00
What we're doing at the daily talk show YE not as much. Yeah.

42:04
I mean, I mean, 20% we need a

42:08
good analogy. I mean, you're you've got a woman ology, you've got a criminology background. So you're, you're going to be primed to do that crime. podcaster. But I mean, the talk show style. I wonder how much opportunity there is to have a global audience? Look, I look, I think that what podcasting, what YouTube? What online content in general has shown us is that those geographic borders don't exist in the world that we thought that they can be a gronk anywhere in the world. MB gronk. I'm not sure you'd want to be he actually got no choice. But yeah, I didn't think those geographic borders of what we think they are. I think that, you know, just as we've been consuming American and English content, our whole life, there's nothing to say that, you know, we were fortunate

43:00
To live in an English speaking country

43:03
and I think that means our storeys our conversations our content can live anywhere in the world if we've got enough we've got Hamish anywhere on Jay Leno was that back in the day remember they were on the US I did Jay Leno Yeah, they did a couple of storeys in China. One of the best things we did was with Krishna Connor, we did a we figured out that his show was on air at the same time, his breakfast show in the in London was on at the same time as the outdrive show.

43:28
Did a simulcast where we broadcast for two hours live in the both markets It was a logistical head Fox but so much fun and and listeners loved it. Yeah, I think that that's the that's the stuff that sticks with me when I think about like a mission and it is those big moments. What are if you were to think of your top moments in your mind of where you're the most proud Sure, it might not be necessarily the biggest thing that the ones where it's like, easily getting you to to surprise everyone and perform

44:00
Live on our last show in 2010. That's right Hamish told the storey of 100 Yeah, of getting on getting you know the not being able to tell anyone's amazing. So we we figured out with the boys were doing a tour around the country for our last week on it. And at the time we thought that was possibly going to be their last week during Dr. Ever.

44:21
How much of a head fuck was that for you? Like obviously, when you're, you've got talent. There's renegotiations all the time.

44:28
As a producer, are you constantly thinking about like, is this going to be the final? There's probably four years Not really. I know, we're just we're just doing it, you know, like this. We're too busy doing that and

44:41
and I had a national role. So I was a National Executive producer. So a lot of my energy was going into developing new shows developing new producers, so crisis calls from champions.

44:52
So this was the final the final show. Me What year 2010 it hasn't happened and we figured out the

45:00
YouTube, we're performing the night after in Melbourne and we booked the night after our Melbourne show. So on the Friday we're finishing in Melbourne at the mind music ball, which is for people outside of Melbourne. It's like a natural amphitheatre that holds about 5000 people in May. I said so red hot chilli peppers. Oh, I did I was at that one too. It's one of the best venues just feeling like you're outside. It's just

45:24
I felt like it was the closest I ever got to being a triple m listener. Okay. Yeah, very cool.

45:33
I have to watch the video guys. Yeah. And so anyway, and we had a relationship with the head of PR, a head of media and PR, who's this incredible Kiwi woman who we worked with about a year previously when we'd had them on the show just as a phone interview. And she'd kind of set that up and and

45:55
really pushed us to come up with a better idea for the interview. It was it was really

46:00
It was just a really good experience and so I've kind of just stayed in contact with her. And so when we realised that our show their last show lined up with with their Melbourne show at Arrowhead Stadium, I think

46:12
I think it was for their 360 tour. We just started putting the feelers out I'm thinking this is such a fucking long shot but but we were we were booking live artists and actually, how big get that on that show was to get john Farnham to perform your voice on that show. And that took probably six months of work of working with his with John's manager Glenn Whately and just just chipping away for six months to get them feeling comfortable that it's just something I should do and they finally agreed which was amazing.

46:42
And then, yeah, and then we got this phone call probably three days out because the boys are already on the stealing Melvin. I think they were over in Adelaide and get this phone call from this woman. And she's like, Sam,

46:55
I've got some news for you. The Irish rock band YouTube will perform at

47:00
Your show

47:01
back

47:03
that she said, Look, the only way you remember where you were when I was like completely I was sitting the show had just finished and I was sitting in the studio in Melbourne.

47:12
And I sort of got out of the studio technical and then she said, But look, the only way we can do this is if it's a surprise, like the only if we have becomes a publicised thing, it just won't work. It needs to be a surprise moment.

47:25
So, you know, no one else can find out about it because if it gets out, we'll just have to walk away from it and no one will ever know. So, okay, so how do you so remember on the day, you know, so we told her head of engineering Andrea call.

47:40
So because she had to work with the band's engineering team to get all the gear and I did it like a strip back performance of a few songs. And then we told our boss grumpy dough, but we hadn't we we were so terrified that this will leak and it won't happen. You know, they'll just walk away and people will be normal.

48:00
Believers so could you write down on a piece of paper? How many people knew at that point like you just yeah, it would have been literally I think the CEO new grumpy dove new and the head of engineering you

48:12
know, yeah

48:13
sorry and he was named him so and anyway they took the band turn up YouTube turn up before our drive show start so it's live to wear between four and six and they've got a green room and you know, we couldn't even put you two on the green room and stuff like it was just so to you

48:29
to XU

48:32
and I remember the general manager at the time the bandit turned up I'm shooting myself a gun and made you turn anything on air to say it'd be great to get you to think

48:43
I don't think we had I don't think we did do that.

48:49
And so here the Benton up and they would lovely and generous and they wanted to really understand what the cultural significance was of how

49:00
Mission Andy and how they were fitting into it and, and the boys have written this really funny song called, we are better than YouTube. And the whole idea was we were going to perform that. And then YouTube would come on sort of singing, we're better than YouTube and then sort of take over. And so we tried to, you know, we'd explain that to them. And I was just so humble and listening and you know, just wanted to get it. That also I remember really clearly wanted to make sure they didn't upstage john Farnham, which was, which was so interesting, like their management were just really clear around. You know, it's really important that we can do this but we don't want to know King gronk. Now, congrats. Exactly right. They understood in that how important to Australians, john Farnham was and that he was performing last on the show, and then that's how it should be. Anyway, I thought that was really interesting, but

49:50
and yeah, I remember our general manager coming around at some point going

49:54
to

49:58
me, so

50:00
Like it was fucking cool like you can't the element of surprise, you just can't like if we had promoted that for three weeks, it just never would have had a same impact. But a surprise is just yeah. So is that the lesson? Like is the cuz I know like having been in radio there's a lot of our you leave the room I want to talk about this thing and even 97 and I have worked out that's like, if he wants to bring something, then it's great to bring it to one of us so we can have one one reaction conversation. Yeah, I mean what what are the lessons from that specific moment?

50:36
There's so many I mean, to me, it was just as a producer watching how their whole team operated how they the the road there to a manager, this guy Brian Sela and Francis who was the WHO THE our media liaison, just it just that. I mean they're really smart people but they're really

50:59
just very

51:00
humble. And I'd like, you know, they've got good manners. They, you know, they it's about saying thank you it's about it's about being very culturally sensitive, you know, to what environment that they were coming into.

51:16
And, you know, I just did things well, they just they were like, literally do this if it's going to be really great.

51:24
I mean, it might not be that hard to impress people, right, like so. So people meet. I know Hamish, and you know, and you've met them bunch of times, when you meet them. They kind of give you engaged conversation for whatever moment you have with them. They don't be told, you know, they really got a presence about them, which I don't feel like they seemed like they going out of their way. They just been great people. I think Jules land is the same or the same. I mean, you're all best friends, right? Like, it's, and then so when you when you expect something like from a rockstar, it's like you can rattle people quite

52:00
Quickly by just being the thing that most people want and expect, because maybe they have a different expectation on you. Yeah, I wonder that like semi that perspective or that way of doing business how how do you think like us as a show? Like how could we bring that culture to our team? We from the beginning how do you start that like what what are the the few things the actions maybe it's how we have our relationship with like, we're constantly thinking about our guests and how we can better communicate with our guests. You know, one really simple thing and Jules Lang told me this was just the art of saying thank you, like, taking time to thank people well, is such a simple thing to do that goes such a long way. Like

52:49
you know, Jules and I did a late night show before I was in radio.

52:55
He won a competition a storey to tell the storey But anyway, it was a line on shows like a 10 o'clock at night.

53:00
midnight on Tuesday nights or something. No one was listening, but we treated it as if it was a big deal because we didn't know any better. And that's all you can do. I mean, that's the other thing we talk about is just a delusion help totally. We thought we're on Fox FM this is massive. It wasn't until years later I realised that not so much but

53:20
anyway, and then after that Jules made these cards and we wrote a thank you card to everyone that had helped us

53:28
just make the show and it's only now that we realise how generous people were actually being like you know, people had actual jobs and helping these kids do this late night show. And and I you know, someone who would give them on those cards to came up to me a few years ago and just said, you know, I've still got that that card where you guys said thank you. And, and I just think it's such a simple thing. And in it just creates a spirit of generosity. You get more out of it than other people, but

54:00
Yeah, it's a simple it's a simple one. The old school Yeah, she's being old school Exactly. Well yeah, I think that it's it's something that can easily be looked over when you're just constantly moving to the next thing like kids to say thank you.

54:14
Thank you and then you forget to do it as an hour. Before you go What are you what are you excited about in the next week? You know, like starting a new wrong I find it all talking organised August getting everything organised. What is it for you? What are you doing? So which next week of this week now this week, Operation right organisers, August yesterday

54:35
took my car to get serviced.

54:37
When went to the doctor to get some stuff sorted, never get sorted, did a blood donation, which have been putting off for a long time. Did the supermarket shopping

54:49
Yes, it's probably not

54:51
going to we've got a we've got a meeting with a financial planner. gronk Yeah, he should have him on that would be nice. Yeah. Anyway,

55:00
Katie and I doing a session my partner are doing session with a financial planner. But again, something I've put off. So I just wanted to take a week between finishing one job selling another job, all that life admin shit that you just put off. I'm trying to take it all off. I like how you just sort of want to actually work out what you have done. It can sometimes be underwhelming I bought myself on Sunday during the Washington organised August actually, who normally doesn't

55:26
need to go give me so

55:28
definitely the hashtag me the new job at SCA will have less of that feeling of swimming understanding what you doing back in you know I think it will be the what's interesting about it really familiar environment but a really unfamiliar, undefined challenge. Like you know, working in a traditional media business and trying to work out how that business future proves itself and

55:58
and plans for

56:00
The future of content is, is its own challenge. But yeah, absolutely. The environment will be much more familiar. And the people, you know, there's some awesome people I'm really looking forward to working with again, you're getting your old office back.

56:13
I don't know, actually quite know where I'm going to be. I know it's in the digital area. Yeah.

56:20
So

56:23
two metre by two metre box. I mean, that's ACI has come a long way in regards to digital, but you think about the perspective of Yeah, when I was the web guy, Josh, versus where it is today. It's amazing. Funny how he has a company's come such a long way. But yet you're still we're still

56:41
not much.

56:43
Yeah. Okay. Sammy, thanks for coming on. Thank you guys. And and, you know, congratulations on this. I think this is

56:52
just it's an awesome success that you really just created something from nothing. I love that it's undefined and you're comfortable with their ambition.

57:00
You have it but I think you're building something really special so congratulations. Thanks me to daily talk show hyper daily talk show.com his email address if you want to send an email also take a

57:19
you've listened or watch take his grab on Instagram tag us up so we can say that you're listening and we can say thank you might even send a card.

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