De Saussure, the philosopher in1779, in his book Voyages dans le Alpes, wrote on observing climbers and the chamois hunters, the following

“it is these very dangers, the alternation of hope and fear, the continual agitation kept alive by these sensations in his heart, which excite the huntsman, just as they animate the gambler, the warrior, the sailor and, even to a certain point, the naturalist (climbers) among the Alps whose life resembles closely, in some respects the chamois hunter.”

And Ruskin in 1863 wrote:

‘but this I know and find, practically that if you come to a dangerous place, and turn back from it, though it may have been perfectly right and wise to do so, still your character has suffered some deterioration, you are to that extent weaker, more lifeless, more effeminate, more liable to passion and error in future; whereas if you go through with the danger, though it may have been apparently rash and foolish to encounter it, you come out of the encounter and stronger better man, fitter for every sort of work or trial, and nothing but danger produces this effect

Macfarlane in his recent book Mountains of the Mind (essential reading) where I learned of the previous two dudes, wrote:

“Risk taking brings with it its own reward. Life, it frequently seems in the mountains, is more intensely lived the closer one gets to its extinction, we never feel so alive as when we have nearly died!”

You know the saying that says, " I climb because it's there' ,doesn't make sense to me. If you climb because it is there, then why doesn't everyone climb just because the mountains are there to climb? There has to be other reasons why a person climbs. The argument that you do something just because it is there I think it is not a very good reason at all for doing something.

"We never feel as alive as when we have nearly died!”That statement is so true, it is because you been through it and you came out alright , you feel more confidence and because of this a new excitement for life and a realization that life is short and that you need to try and enjoy it more.

Are you then saying that closer you came to death, the better you'll feel? Thus if you are not soling, on flaky routes, above you're grade, you may as well rather spend time at the mall or vegging on the couch?

What about bouldering then? They say you still feel good after bouldering, yet your life was never in danger?

Even trad climbing. You still feel good even though you had 2 ropes and a multitude of safety gear. Your life is never really in danger. Thus you only FEEL like you came a little closer to death.

So why do we bother hiking up the big mountains, why do we look at the beautiful African panoramas, why do we nurture bonds of camaraderie with climbing partners, why do we spend the money on expensive fuel to visit small paradises in montague, boven, cederberg?

Why do we hassle with all that if we could simply rent a scary movie, pretend our live was really in danger, and feel so much more alive?

Hann, read Macfarlane's book. It is a gem and he delves into all this stuff. Scary movies are vicarious or proxy adventures. All climbing is risky, just look at the stats. It is a question of balancing the risk with being stupid and killing yourself. Climbing is hunting. Except hunters in the past did not have a choice; we now have the luxury of making that choice. A lot of people choose other risky activities not the least of which is paragliding and BASE jumping. Other's gamble and play the stock exchange and others merely go to work and face various challenges and risks there.

Kids dabble with sex and tattoos and drugs. Etc

We are innately and instinctively into risk, men it would seem a little more than woman.

400 years and more ago the popular idea of Mountains was largely that of aversion. They were considered ugly, hostile violent places and only the poor and marginalized lived there and they did not really want to. The British popularized Mountaineering. So go inform yourself. Macfarlane's book is a must read for anyone that climbs.

I have for the last 10 years worked out that climbing is a proxy form of hunting. It's got nothing to do with "because it's there". That is a romantic notion that should be left behind in the last 3 centuries. Climbing and killing yourself was a very hounerable way to die for the Brits and Europeans in general and it has captured the imagination for centuries. To this day nobody gives a damn in SA what you climb unless it's Everest where the risks are highest.

lelikegogga go try find sponsorship i.e.cash, which is the measure of whether anyone cares what you do. for climbing anything except Everest It is the standard currency of value exchange. Nobody is gonna write a big check for anything other than Everest. In 1996, when some self-proclaimed "mountaineer" came along, the Sunday Times wrote a check for R2million (now worth about R5million) for this oke to embarrass the rest of us South Africans on Everest. Since then the vast majority of sponsored money has gone towards climbers no-one never heard of being nurse maided up Everest on fixed ropes and the like by Sherpas. Society at large could not care less if you do a hard rock route in the Alps, on Mt Kenya or elsewhere. If they did they would write the check like they do for rugby, soccer, cricket and golf.

Eric Shipton wrote in his book Upon That Mountain (published in 1943):

'He is lucky who, in the full tide of life, has experienced a measure of the active environment he most desires. In these days of upheaval and violent change, when the basic values of today are the vain and shattered dreams of tomorrow, there is much to be said for a philosophy which aims at living a full life while the opportunity offers.

There are few treasures of more lasting worth than the experience of a way of life that is in itself wholly satisfying. Such, after all, are the only possessions of which no fate, no cosmic catastrophe can deprive us; nothing can alter the fact if for one moment in eternity we have really lived.'

Money: I have put gazillions, literally millions, into climbing and never got a cent from it. Never been sponsored by anyone for anything. Been hosted once or twice but reciprocated with interest.

Ego: as in the "I", yes for me! And for those that relate to it and to me. Certainly not to inflate my ego but rather to build my character as Ruskin thought. But not the "ego" as in the: what you or others think of me.Self aggrandizement is more to the point of what you may allude to as "ego" but if that's what I wanted then I would surely start with Everest.

cheap thrill: not cheap at all, but thrilling indeed. Sometimes beyond what is sensible. So I can sure feel alive.

This is an assumption to state what I previously said to be your opinion.

I do not disagree with what you say. Its more how you say it.

Quote:

the vast majority

maybe, but not

Quote:

nobody

I guess what I'm trying to say is:Me definitely don't care much about money or big mountains, but Me (in SA) give a damn about what people climb and me = nobody.Damn, and there I go prove that your opinion is in deed FACT :-) lelikegogga = nobody, i.e.

Quote:

To this day

lelikegogga

Quote:

gives a damn in SA what you climb unless it's Everest where the risks are highest.

I was wondering the other day. I reckon someone falls safely onto a bolt, somewhere, every minute of every day.

Anyway, everyone is motivated by different things. Some by danger, some by natural beauty, some by solitude, some by physical challenge, some by the beauty of refining movement, some by solitude, some by ego some by ..... (take your pick). And most likely the motivations within yourself will vary from moment to moment. I don't think it's possible to reduce it to 'a proxy form of hunting'. The hugeness of the topic, so many variables, is probably why you're getting all the tongue in cheek responses.... Better to refine your question... And stop lumping all forms of climbing together already...

For me risk has nothing to do with it. It is the shape of a hold, the feel of a sequence and the look of the line that get me, and probably most sport clmbers and boulderers. If one can appreciate these things, then one is truly lucky and will be eternally psyched.

For fun! Thats the main reason I climb.Getting away from the city into nature, some trad or sport I completely forget about everything, just busy picking my way up figuring out moves etcAnd yes when you have a big whipper or almost whipper it does get the adranaline going and you feel refreshed after a day at the crag ready the attack all day life/work etc.

W

_________________Climbing Off route doesn't exist; it's called a first ascent!

Evelyn Holtzhausen, a prolific writer in the local Cape Times newspaper wrote this today: "I sat next to local Everest hero (sic)Andre Brendenkamp. You'd never have guessed that he had been to the top of the world and back. and successfully climbed (sic) the highest peaks. from the way he ordered his salad. There was no need for him to be rude to the waiter"

Now I don't know EH or A B but EH as an editorial writer either reflects or influences the thinking of society. I have taken issue with him before over his reverence of those that "climb" Everest. The fact remains that he feeds on the popular imagination of society and probably pays some of his bills on so doing.

Now I wonder why and how AB got to "climb" Everest and be a hero that EH was concerned that he should or might be in need of being rude to a waiter . I never heard of him before today?

I read this book called ' The Power of Now' (Eckhart Tolle). There is no such thing as the future it doesn't exist, the past doesn't exist only humans record the past. The only thing that exists is this moment right now. My mind is so busy yet when I'm climbing I'm only thinking where the next hold is etc, totally living in the moment. Damn it's great to be alive:D even if it is only for those brief moments.

If others manages to climb the mighty Everest, "Mary Poppins" or "Frasier's variation", I'll refrain from jealously, even though I'll admire their achievement....in which ever way or style they choose to achieve this goal.

Nor will I post here questioning their accomplishment, as this forum is for many just

willemeulen wrote:

For fun! Thats the main reason....

So, If you want to climb Everest, get on with it. If you don't want to climb Everest, then let those who want to get on with it.

Side Topic: Personally I wish K2 would hurry up and grow bigger than Everest so that it could then become THE object of desire, and kill all these pansy ass yuppies who just have to have themselves sherpa'ed (dragged) up to the top of the world, just so that they can say they have conquered earth and feel like big men.

This attitude of big mountains being the only worthwhile objectives is also entrenched in the MCSA. I once suggested that the club should be sponsoring people like Clint, Marijus, Edvinas etc to go and climb on the continent and gain experience at the awesome crags of Spain and France. The answer was; 'we're not going to pay for someones sport climbing holiday!' What a totally outdated and backward point of view! The amount the club puts into just one expedition to some obscure peak in the middle of nowhere could easily send all the top young climbers over to Europe for a full season. Its time for the club to wake up! The paradigm has long since shifted from seeking death in some forgotten land to the pursuit of excellence and (yes!) fun in far more congenial and interactive locales. Its ridiculous attitudes like this and the clubs heavy emphasis on mountaineering that are the main reasons I have never, and will never, join. These attitudes are also responsible for influencing how the public understand climbing (If you promote one point of view enough it will become accepted as the status quo).

On Topic: I cant remember why I started climbing its too long ago, so my real answer will have to be - habit.

In my opinion I don't think top climbers should be sponsored to go climbing, why should top climbers who are members of the mountain club get more from their membership than other members of the mountain club?

The mountain club is not above criticism, though it has done good through its involment in rescue and it's outreach program.

Last edited by Drifter on Tue Mar 03, 2009 1:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Back on topic:Trad: The fun for me lies in the exploration; when opening a new route and going where nobody has ever been before. Sitting on a ledge and just being freeSport & bouldering: I do it to spend time with the awesome people I climb with. Working a route, figuring out the moves... finding a way for my short ass to get up where taller dudes can just reach...

Also when out climbing the chances of being bothered by someone who's not there for the same reason(s) are rather slim, so it's like a escape, or a little holiday, away from our responsibilities

And damnit it's probably the best all over exercise I could think of!!

I'm with everybody who said "for fun". To me it's all about forgetting about everything else in your life and just enjoying being alive. Climbing is almost living at its most primal and simplest form. It's just you, your focus and the rock... followed by either the frustration of falling or the elation of victory. Everything else seems to fade away. I climb because it's so relaxing. It gives me an opportunity to get out of the city and for a few hours get the world to stop turning so damn quickly.

(Still ranting on about the side topic, feel free to skip!)Yip Stijn such is their title yet they circulate surveys to discover whether they should represent all climbing in SA, which is a joke coz they arent capable of this, not the way things are at present. They wonder why their numbers are dwindling and no younger climbers are joining, it is simply because they are stuck in the past and unable to see the fresh perspective.

At least Neil Margetts is doing something by trying to get Adam here thats awesome - great move! However the passing on of skills (learning) to local climbers will be minimal. With expeditions there is zero passing on of skills for maximum expenditure. I doubt the slide shows even inspire that many modern thinking climbers. Why do they spend so much for some mediocre aid climber to sit in a snow cave for weeks on end???

Sending the young guns to hone their skills at overseas sport and bouldering areas (where there are huge numbers of hard routes and climbers) will bring skills back into the country which will get passed on to others. This (and other initiatives) really will elevate the state of play here. We are woefully behind the rest of the world in achievement levels. And please dont trot out some lame explanation like our numbers are too few, Slovenia has a far smaller population yet produces top athletes. MCSA - swing some of those voyager miles in the right direction for a change!!

To me climbing has never been about danger, but rather about movement. I guess this is why I have always been interested in hard sport climbing, rather than trad climbing.What attracts me is the beauty of the movement and stretching the limits of what your body is physically capable of. To me, the grace and the fluidity of reahearsed moves on a hard redpoint is almost like dancing. I also like the mental aspect of overcoming your fears (note that I say fear and not danger) and therefore expanding your mental limits as well as your physical limits.I see this as the main difference between a sports and a trad climber and also the reason why neither is better than the other. It's just a different motivation that drives you.

X-MOD: Your rant is my pet rant with the MCSA in the Cape. I was asked to show Tea for Three and not charge the R25 I and the FAC insist on even though we will donate the proceeds back to the club. I told the MCSA powers that be, that CityROCK shows a film The Sharp End and 200 people pitch and pay R50!!!! Mostly young keen dudes. They say the Friday nighters (described by them as old fuddy duddies) won't pay.....

They say OK then, ask for a donation of R25. I and FAC reluctently agree. And then we donate all to:...... Guess what! The Expedition Fund!. I say NO WAY. I am not paying for okes I barely heard of to go walkabout on some arb mountain. I say it goes to promoting Rock Rallies and youth climbing and to bringing dudes at the cutting edge of trad or sport here. (The boulderers come anyway). Sonny Trotter, McCloud, Sharma, etc

The MCSA brought out Doug Scott, who embarrassed himself auctioning a poster which the MCSA paid R4000 to support a cause in another 3rd world country while our citizens die of aids and starvation. C'mon gimme a break!

I'm with you on this and me and Bruce Spottiswood and others are bent on changing things!

You go Charles!!!I do not intend (as Drifter incorrectly summises) to harm the MCSA with my rant (as if it would really have an impact anyway!?), indeed I dont even dislike them, they have done many great things for the sport. But complaining that there is no new blood coming into the club without actually providing facilities or activities that would interest them is just silly. The other thing I hear is that the funds are used for members only and hence tend to fund their interests. This also a bit arse about tip.

They need to put the horse before the cart to move forward. How about sponsoring a trip for the young guns, with qualification based solely on merit regardless of whether they are presently members, even award them honourary membership if this is necessary to satisfy club policy. That will send out a very clear message to all the up and coming talent that the club really is for them and doing things that will help them. If guys like Marijus (apologies for using you as an example Marz, I dont even know if you are a member or not) can achieve 8B boulder without any support from the club imagine what they would be able to achieve with the full support of the community. It would be staggering!

Perhaps the old codgers should be subjected to a barrage of 'Dosage' films to update their aging craniums as to the state of play!! - no charge!

Anyway I am scuppering the 'why do you climb?' debate with all this.......for me its habit, and I hope, as I get into it after a long break, it will become super fun again. Communion with nature tops my list, the wind the clouds and birds, the lizards, crazy baboons dynoing further than you can imagine, the fantastic shapes in the rock, the feel of the rock's texture, the spike of adrenalin (more from pushing my ability than facing danger - dont enjoy shitting myself too much!), and of course the company of a great bunch of people. I really hope the club can find a way to attract all climbers so that the division that has emerged between the various disciplines can be healed. Together we stand, divided we fall (or is that we all fall together? - traddies exempt;- they may get hurt!).

Suggestions for the club: 1.Fund an 'expedition' as detailed above. 2.Instead of buying property renovate the clubhouse, modernise it completely so that it is an airy, light and inviting space. Its really gloomy and horrid as it stands! (notably the mens loos ). 3.More meets and local exploration Eastern Cape?-so much there! Namibia, there are vast limestone outcrops in the north, maybe there are fifty oudtshoorns just sitting there.

MCSA members are volunteers, none are paid. We don't owe anybody anything. Why should we do as we are told with our free time? who should tell us what to do? Its a club, not a job. There is nothing we have to do.

"funds are used for members only and hence tend to fund their interests" Ja, the funds are from the members. That that makes them the members funds. Who funds the most bolts in SA? Who is the major non comercial funder of Rock & Road?

"achieve 8B boulder without any support from the club" what are you hoping for, some old doggers to spot him? An old lady to rub his back? Boulders for his birthday? You climb 8b because you want to. Marijus wants to...member or not.

"renovate the clubhouse, modernise it completely so that it is an airy, light and inviting space. Its really gloomy and horrid as it stands! (notably the mens loos )." Climbing is not about clubhouse & mens loos. Add a baby cry room.

"I really hope the club can find a way to attract all climbers so that the division that has emerged between the various disciplines can be healed" & this is some how the clubs responsibliity. Easy to hold something or someone else responsible. Allows us to sit back & do jack sh.t.

"More meets and local exploration Eastern Cape?-so much there!" Have to agree. I'll set up a meet, hope you can all come. There is a trad meet to Cockscomb easter weekend. You are all welcome. Its a long nasty walk & upto 13 pitches, sleep in a sweet (club) cave,... Ja they bought it for people to enjoy & to keep the acsess.

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