Of late the Off Topic section has gone from a place where we could talk, share jokes and interact in a friendly manner away from the constraints of staying on a gun related topic to one of constant bickering, fighting, name calling and nonsense. Where once we had conversation and discussion we now have feuds between ideologies, religion bashing, conspiracy wars, anti-government diatribes and personal baiting.
While personal freedoms are one of our driving forces here and we try our best not to engage in censorship, rules are still necessary to allow a free flow of ideas, conversation and input. So these are the new Off Topic rules.

1) Religious discussions must be kept civil and respectful, no attacking someone’s beliefs. *Religious discussions are welcome; insulting or denigrating someone’s religion is not. Posts that are insulting or demeaning to Christianity will be treated just the same as derogatory posts about Muslims or other religions. There will be no religion that is 'okay' to mock or denigrate. Posts or threads that are not discussions but simply negative comments will be seen as having no value and will be removed as listed below. You are more than welcome to disagree with someone’s beliefs or Faith. If you can civilly and respectfully debate why you disagree that is fine. If you can not your post will be removed, repeated removals will cause your account to be closed.

2) Political discussion is welcome, partisan bickering and insults are not.Politics are inescapable on a board such as this, however that does not mean it has to devolve in to a donnybrook every time the subject comes up. Calguns is a firearm’s enthusiast/grassroots Second Amendment site, not a Republican booster club nor a Democrat rallying point. Denigrating someone who is trying to work with us on restoring our Second Amendment rights because of party affiliation or ideological beliefs is destructive and will not be allowed. We are here to work together not tear each other down. Debate of non-Second Amendment politics is welcome if you can do it in a calm and courteous manner. If you can not your post will be removed, repeated removals will cause your account to be closed.

3) Anti-Government posts while not forbidden are expected to maintain a civil and respectful tone.
Anti-Government sentiments always seem to attach themselves to the firearms culture, this is in part due to the fact that we see the erosion of our 2nd Amendment rights as a Government intrusion and rightly so. However trying to claim that everything the Government does is evil or part of some grand diabolical design is not only overly suspicious it is detrimental to us as well. It makes all firearms owners look slightly off center. Calguns is not about being anti-Government; we are about being Pro Second Amendment and that is the focus we wish to keep. Non-Second Amendment political discussion will be kept civil, polite and respectful just as Second Amendment political discussion has been expected to be. Sarcastic or insulting terms or images used in regards to elected officials will not be allowed. It doesn’t matter if it is Bush, Clinton, Cheney, Pelosi or our own State Senators, the clever names and sarcastic comments do not make us look anything other than childish. You do not have to respect the person but we expect you to respect the Office. If you can not your post will be removed, repeated removals will cause your account to be closed.

4) Conspiracy theories, 9/11 theories and topics such as this are also not banned but will be limited.Conspiracies, 9/11 and topics such as these are nothing but divisive and detrimental. Views on these topics are very polarizing and there is little if any middle ground for discussion or debate. Either you believe what is being said by ‘Source A’ or you do not and vice versa with ‘Source B’. Simply put the amount of useful information in relation to the amount of fighting and bickering does not make this worthwhile, arguing about whether or not the Dollar is valid money, taxes are legal or similar such topics has too low of a ‘signal to noise’ value. There are entire forums dedicated to these subjects and they are not that hard to find. Phrases such as ‘sheeple’, ‘kool-aid drinker’ and ‘tin foil hatter’ will be viewed in the manner they were intended, rarely is that other than as an insult. These topics will not be ‘outlawed’ but they will be severely restricted. Repeated thread hi-jacking with these subjects will result in first a warning, then time off and finally closure of the account.

5) Racist comments of any type are not allowed, this includes commonly acknowledged 'Hate' references.Racist comments of any type are not allowed, This includes any comments commonly considered to be Hate oriented. For example quotes or links to sites such stormfront.org or noi.org. We have worked hard to become the site we are and will not allow this kind of vulgar commentary to be attached to our reputation.
You will be warned once with time off, a second occurrence may lead to the closure of your account.

6) The suggesting or advocating of illegal activities is not allowed.The suggesting or advocating of illegal activities is not allowed. It is understood that some things may be said in jest, if there is a question of intent your post will be removed until we can make sure it was in jest.
Repeated suggesting or advocating of illegal activities will result in first a warning, then time off and finally closure of the account.

7) Outright insults, name calling, denigrating comments and ‘baiting’ is not allowed.Comments of this nature are not allowed, if you do not like someone simply do not post in their thread. This rule applies regardless of the root cause, be it religion, orientation or something specific to the individual. This does not refer to joking, ribbing or friendly teasing; these are things friends do. Neither does this rule give anyone free rein to be obnoxious and claim it as a specific trait. This rule refers to comments and post intended solely to offend, antagonize or hurt. If a trend appears of repeatedly posting not to add to the thread but to antagonize a particular member it will result in first a warning, then time off and finally closure of the account.

8) Berating or insulting based on ethnicity, sexual alignment, or religion is not allowed.Calguns is a site dedicated to firearms ownership, we do not exclude or favor anyone. The intent is to be a place that all types of California gun owners can come to, converse and help to restore our rights. As such derogatory comments or insults directed towards members based on these aspect will result in first a warning, then time off and finally closure of the account.
On the opposite side of this if you feel you are in a minority position due to views or opinions do not hold that up as protection from people differing or disagreeing with you, it is not. Just because you're [fill in the blank] does not make you a special category, we do not have those here. Attempts to push your views in others faces or insult others like you have impunity will result in first a warning, then time off and finally closure of the account.

9) Rules for picture postingNudity, partial nudity or porn of any fashion is not allowed, either as a displaying image, as a hot link or as links of any fashion.
Pictures that do not meet the above descriptions but are suggestive or revealing while still maintaining a 'PG-13' level can be posted as clickable (hot) links.
If it looks like hard or soft core porn, don't post it.
If it looks like the over-sensitive office tattletale would get offended by it but it is not pornographic, link it.
If it is a more tasteful image then it can be a displaying image.

*This rule does NOT mean that current events and news stories can not be discussed, it simply means that these discussions need to be conducted in a civil manner.
For example, citing a news story about the L.A Diocese making payments to settle a lawsuit is not uncivil. Calling Catholic Priests 'homo-rapists' or all Catholics are **** is uncivil and insulting.
Another example would be posting a story and commentary about a bombing by Muslim extremists as opposed to claiming all Muslims are 'goat-loving baby-killers'. The former would not be disrespectful, it is simply discussing what has happened, the later would be rude and disrespectful and obviously intended to be so.
A final example of what would be unacceptable would be telling someone 'Your belief/faith/religion is fake and BS'. This applies whether it is Judaism, Islamic, Christianity, Atheism or others. You don't have to agree with someone's faith but you also do not need to denigrate it.

Calguns will not devolve in to a band of juveniles each trying to out-shriek the others. We’ve worked too long and too hard to make this board and it’s members a driving force for Second Amendment rights to see a small percentage drag down the rest. We will NOT be the board that is held up by the anti-gun lobbyists as an example of the ‘extremist whacko’s that gun owners are!’

Since the rules are being revisited I think we need to point out that these are still just as valid as well.

These are the rules we all agreed to when we joined this forum, they still apply today.
As some of you have noticed Admin is restructuring the Forum to be more in line with it's beginnings, as a discussion group to share ideas and info in a polite and friendly enviroment. in keeping with that I am posting a simple reminder of the rules.

By registering on calguns.net you are agreeing to abide by the following:
a)Please stay on topic in all forums.
b)No multiple registrations.
c)No spamming(solicitation of goods unrelated to calguns.net that are
unwanted by users),trolling,flaming or other personal attacks. You may
disagree with other posters but please keep it clean and civil.
d)No profanity or otherwise uncivilized behavior.
e)Calguns.net reserves the right at our discretion to lock or delete posts
and ban members. At most you will get one chance.
f)No posting information that can be construed to be illegal, firearm
related or not.
g)Calguns.net administrators,moderators are gun enthusiasts who offer
individual opinions only. Opinions on this site can never take the place of
firearms training and real expertise. We do not teach proficiency in regards
to firearms use,reloading ammunition, gunsmithing or firearms modification.
Proceed solely at your own risk.

1) Discussions will remain civil, this is not a request it is a requirement.
This is self-explanatory and not open to debate.

2) Discussions will be carried out in a polite and respectful manner.
You do not have to like, share or approve of someone's views.
However demeaning, denigrating or insulting someone because of their views will not be tolerated.
Neither will mocking those views be tolerated.

3) Post of the Political Hit Piece' type are not allowed.
Threads started solely as a platform to belittle any candidate will be removed.
Discussion of positions and major news stories allowed.
Posting unrelated or marginally related information for a 'They did it too!' post is not

4) Clever nicknames for candidates are not allowed.
While you may dislike or distrust them, or just think are crooks, rude names are just that, rude.
Using names like 'Hitlery' 'Obama-sama' or 'the Manchurian Candidate' serves only to make us look childish.
This is an extension of General Rule: 3

5) No one is exempt from these rules based on ideology or Party affiliation.
Being conservative on a firearms board does not buy you a pass on these rules.
Being liberal does not mean you get special protections or that the rules do not apply to you.
These rules apply to all and 'He did it too!' is NOT a viable answer.

6) This election is about the candidates, not their children
Slurs, slams, mudslinging and derogatory/demeaning comments about the children of the various candidates will not be tolerated.
The media may feel compelled to try to attack any of the candidates through their children, we will not.

These rules are NOT all-inclusive.
As needed they will be added to or modified.
They will not become more lax however.
It is hoped that additions will not be necessary.

We really don't need a daily dose of cut and pasted political commentary.
I'm sure if anyone wants to read an ad or blog about a candidate they can find it on the web, the repetitive postings of blogs and opinion pieces is unnecessary.

News stories are somewhat different then opinion pieces and blogs however even they should be more then just a cut and paste of the story.

The preferred would be a link, small teaser section and the OP's input and discussion about the story.
In the case of sites that require membership to view cut and paste is viable as long as no copyright issues arise.

It has come to our attention that at least one Calguns member was actively trying to involve other members in the illegal sale, and importation of high-capacity magazines. This was not in reference to rebuild kits, but rather using an out of state third party to receive complete high-capacity magazines, and reship them to this now former-member in California.

In addition this same former-member was falsley claiming that he is a police officer in order to abuse the trust of the title, to execute FFL transfers of handguns that are not on the safe handgun list.

If you have been contacted by anyone who claims to be a police officer, and they make a request of you involving off-list handguns, or high-capacity magazines, CHECK THEIR CREDENTIALS. Simply taking their word that they are LEOs may end you up in prison for multiple felonies.

If it smells fishy, it probably is, and you should contact the moderators with your concerns.

The election is over and like most here I am not happy with the results.
However that does not mean ALL are not happy. Some members consider the results a good thing and they are both allowed and welcome to their views and opinions just as everyone else here is. This means that they are not to be subject to name calling, blanket accusations nor negative generalizations.
This also means they are NOT a protected class. If they indulge in any of the above they will receive the same punishment as anyone else would.
No one will be given a pass for insulting, baiting or trolling other members based on ideology or religion.

One of the hallmarks of Calguns prior to the election was our ability to set aside all the other partisan issues and focus on our 2nd Amendment rights.
We are going to do that again.

Whether you are happy with the election results or unhappy everyone has to agree that in the immediate future our 2A rights are not secure, neither nationally nor on a State level. That needs to be our focus.

The bickering stops now.
If you absolutely must rant about Obama or Bush or Reid there are forums aplenty just for that, this isn't one of them.
Issues that directly affect our 2A right are of course always viable and even necessary, we all know the difference between those topics and the ones commented on below.
The little drive-by cut and pastes, hit pieces and pot stirring posts are not.
This will be enforced by editing of posts, deletion of posts and/or threads and even deletion of accounts if necessary.

If all you've come to Calguns for is to vent your hatred for either party or a particular politician now is the time to move on to greener pastures.
If you're here to talk firearms, joke around with friends and work toward securing and restoring our 2A rights pull up a chair.

The OT (Off Topic) section has become very annoying and the same old bickering and arguing has been the rule for too long now. I've mentioned being tired of it before and now I've decided what to do with it. It involves several parts including loosening the rules, tightening them up and going back to Calgun's roots.

When we started and up until this last election cycle, OT and for the most part CGN was apolitical on issues other then 2nd Amendment rights. Ideology and party affiliation meant little as we left the other crap at the door and kept our discussions and debates focused on either firearms topics, 2A related legal and political topics and friendly OT discussions.
This past election cycle has brought on much division, partisanship and bickering and has done more to damage this community then the Bradys themselves could hope to do.

I think the biggest mistake I made was opening the Election forum and letting the partisan fighting, defending and bickering rear it's head.
I should have held us true to course and not tried to open things up in that direction.
This is the thing that has hurt us the most and brought much of the divisions we've had over the last year and the blame for that is entirely at my feet.

The changes that will be made:

Going back to the Beginning

The going back to our roots part means the partisan politics, bickering and ideological sniping are done.
No more snarky comments, no more trolling threads, no more new snippets about how politician 'A' did this and what do you think of that.
It's done. OT is going to be run the way it used to be before the 2008 elections.
If it's political, it needs to be 2nd Amendment related and in the 2A forum.
If it's partisan, there are forums on the internet for that, go there and share it.
This means the 'Obama did this today...' and Palin was seen doing...' threads are done. No more. If this hampers or lessens your participation in OT or on Calguns maybe you need to take another look at why you are signed up on a California firearms/2nd Amendment forum.
Clever ways to try to get around this will be removed and the rules listed below will apply.
If you're looking at this as a challenge of how to post this stuff up without violating the rules or getting caught, contact me now.
We'll just save time and effort by deleting your account today and avoiding the mess later.

New rules, new consequences and new enforcement.

This is where the 'tightening up the rules' part comes in.
If all someone has to add to the forum is political baiting in OT they will not be posting in or even seeing OT.
This will be based on a consistent three strikes system, the third piece of political bait thrown out and either deleted or locked will be the last in OT for that person.
This applies to the previously mentioned clever or creative ways to 'get around' the rules.
This same three strikes system can be used for other things too, such as overtly adult discussions and comments, insults and more.
The OT bans do not have to be permanent but can vary as well.
Of course there will still be 'one strike' offenses just as there always have been, this doesn't change that.

Opening things up in Off Topic

Now for the 'loosening of the rules' part.
We will NOT be allowing rougher language, more porn pictures or more adult oriented imagery/discussion.
Calguns will remain workplace and family friendly.
However there will be a bit more latitude given in the overall nature of postings in OT.
Obviously there are boundaries that will not change, this forum will still be workplace and family friendly, but there are also some that have gotten a bit too tight as well.

Frankly, at times I enjoy the 'TaN' style threads. They are usually amusing, funny, casual and light and to be honest one of the better 'community building' type of threads we've had. People have fun joking with friends and make friends with the people they joke around with. That's part of what we used to be about.
As long as we keep it within the forum rules I really don't care if there is a 500 page TaN going.

We use to have members posting joke threads and cartoons that they found amusing.
Prior to a fairly good sized contingent becoming overly sensitive to being offended or looking for something to hang a complaint about a rival on there used to be a fair bit of fun in OT.
Poking fun at a friend or teasing a buddy is something we all do and no one here should be so immature as to make it mean spirited and juvenile nor so overly sensitive as to not understand friendly ribbing and jest.

Just remind everyone however, this is NOT license to violate the rules, become snide with another member or insult someone and claim 'I was just teasing/joking'.
Those kind of actions WILL cost you first access to OT and then your account if they continue.
We're loosening things up not declaring a free for all.

As things rarely happen in a vacuum there will be an addendum to the 2A forum rules that states that ideological trolling, baiting or slamming will cost you access to the 2A forum and possibly Calguns itself. We are not transferring the partisan bickering and antagonism to the 2A forum.
As it has always been, that is for directly 2nd Amendment political and legal discussion ONLY.

Frankly I haven't enjoyed logging on to my own website for several months now and I'd really rather overhaul it and try to get back that fun, spirit of community and enjoyment then start drifting away even more.
We are always growing and things will continually change but that doesn't mean we have to let the changes and growth control us.

As always, time and experience will show us what we need to adjust with this and we'll make those adjustments as they are identified.

Recently, including today, we've had some people post information, links or pictures regarding various hate sites, organizations or mottos.

They are no longer members of Calguns.

Let me make this perfectly clear.

If you post a link to a hate site or racist organization you will not get a warning you will be removed.

If you post a picture of yourself involved in, representing or espousing a racist organization or motto you will be removed.

If you post racist comments or pictures you will be removed.

If you post information from a racist site or hate group you will be removed.

I try very hard not to let my personal opinions interfere with running this site. Everyone is welcome to their own views and having those views is never a reason to be banned.

In this matter I make an exception to both of these statements and goals.
I can not stand racism nor racists and I will not tolerate that kind of idiocy here.
This is one area where I will allow my personal views to hold sway.