Being my first post on these forums, I'd like to say hello to everybody first.

I've been reading reviews and the Recommended|Reference articles now and than. I don't have much experience with silent builds and I don't consider myself a silent PC enthusiast, but I must admit that I hate noises that fans make. Noises from other components like drives and so on, don't bother me that much. I'll be buying a new PC soon and here's the build I'm considering:

So there would be 2 fans: A front case fan to cool down the hard drive, undervolted with the Fanmate to blow just enough to keep the hard drive temperature below 40°C. And the fan of the semi-passive PSU which (hopefully) would never need to turn on because the system will cause low load on the PSU. So there would be almost no airflow through the case, but there are two fan openings on the top, where the hot air from the CR-95C heatsink would escape.

Your system's load power draw is in the 80-90W range (depending on how many of the drives are spinning and I'm guessing 10W max for the Asus card). That's not a lot of heat in the case.

The CPU wouldn't overheat as it's only 35W TDP. The SPCR test used an overclocked/overvolted 95W TDP CPU and it had 54C rise over ambient. You probably won't see more than 25C rise (20C for the CPU wattage, 5C for Haswell's inferior IHS). Maybe add 10C to case temp for no significant airflow. So, worst case, 35C over room temp.

That said, I have some questions...

- Why 3 ODDs?

- what apps require the 8 threads of an i7?

- if you are going to spend $200 on a sound card...you might consider: - Haswell doesn't have a native PCI controller, so your mobo uses a PCIe to PCI bridge chip that will add DPC latency. Might be ok for your audio needs, or it might add enough to cause clicks. - going with digital out and using an external DAC/amp.

- PSU is serious overkill. Your's will never turn on. Get a low power passive PSU or go pico-PSU + brick.

i) In general, it is easier to build an efficient airflow system within a smaller chassis for a given fan noise level because of aerodynamic fundamentals. Since it it crucial to have a proper airflow system with fanless CPU coolers, I recommend you consider a micro-ATX system as well in lieu of the suggested ATX system.ii) Samsung SSDs turn out to be tiny bit less reliable by TechReport: http://techreport.com/review/25681/the- ... n-at-300tbiii) Have you considered an all-in-one USB sound card & speaker system, for instance, Sound BlasterAxx SBX 10 which is equipped with Bluetooth module?iv) I've been using Corsiar RM450 in one of my rigs (not shown in my signature) and I can confirm that it is dead silent without any trace of coil whining whatsoever. Even 450W seems to be excessive for your suggested system.

The CPU wouldn't overheat as it's only 35W TDP. The SPCR test used an overclocked/overvolted 95W TDP CPU and it had 54C rise over ambient.

I know. I read that test. But it was done outside a case so there was nothing there to prevent hot air from escaping. I don't know how much would temperatures rise if the test was done inside a case.

CA_Steve wrote:

- Why 3 ODDs?

Because of their different properties. The LG and the Optiarc will be taken from my current system. I love the quality of audio CD's the LG burns, but it can't test them. The Optiarc can test disc nad also is slightly better at writing DVD's. The Plextor comes with Plextools, which are supposed to be very good testing software and it's clone of Lite-On x24 Rev. C series, which are supposed to be one of best if not the best writers still available. So I want it for testing and writing abilities. I already ordered it and when I receive it, I'll test it, if it performs well, it goes in, otherwise not. So 3 ODD's is the worst possible scenario.

CA_Steve wrote:

- what apps require the 8 threads of an i7?

My current CPU is 2100T and it's slow when adding effects to audio files, scanning them for clicks, saving them and so on. Very often I have to wait several minutes doing nothing waiting for Adobe Audition to finish it's task. I hope buying the fastest 35W TDP CPU will shorten that time as much as possible, but still allow me to passively cool the CPU. And I don't mind if all the threads won't be used. And one never knows what apps will come out in the future, that might use all the threads.

CA_Steve wrote:

- Haswell doesn't have a native PCI controller, so your mobo uses a PCIe to PCI bridge chip that will add DPC latency. Might be ok for your audio needs, or it might add enough to cause clicks. - going with digital out and using an external DAC/amp.

I didn't know that, and I definitely don't want to risk latency and clicks. My first choice was the PCIe version of Xonar Essence anyway. But CR-95C covers 1st PCIe slot end almost touches the card in the 2nd slot. That's why I chose the PCI card, which I could stick into 2nd PCI slot, as far away from the heatsink as possible. I'm unfamiliar with external DAC's. I'll do some research and if I can get something decent for price of the Xonar card, I might get it.

CA_Steve wrote:

- PSU is serious overkill. Your's will never turn on. Get a low power passive PSU or go pico-PSU + brick.

It indeed is, but it can't hurt, right?. Corsair AX aren't that expensive and I've had good experience with them in the past. I live in a small country and there's not a lot of choice around here. AX760 is the only model I can get from local dealers. I thought semi-passive PSU would also be a kind of safeguard if things got too hot, the fan would turn on and add some airflow, that might help cooling the case down.But if there's realy no need for fan in PSU, AX760 wil never turn on it's fan, so it'll be just as quiet as the fanless PSU would be. Or am I wrong? What would be the pros of a fanless PSU, besides that I could probably get one for a little less money.

I want a reliable machine for serious work and I don't trust pico-PSU's enough. They seem fine for HTPC's though.I once bought PW-200-V and some (was it HP or Dell?) brick for it to build a fanless router out of old p4 box. But I would have to improvise by soldering wires to the PSU, the mounts and insulation so the psu won't touch the case. Too many improvisation to consider it reliable. I probably still have that PSU somewhere, but I never used it.

i) In general, it is easier to build an efficient airflow system within a smaller chassis for a given fan noise level because of aerodynamic fundamentals. Since it it crucial to have a proper airflow system with fanless CPU coolers, I recommend you consider a micro-ATX system as well in lieu of the suggested ATX system.

micro-ATX is not an option. How am I supposed to fit CR-C95 in there? It sits about 6mm above top side of the mobo. That's why I chose that large case. Because out of the pictures in the review I saw that it has enough space above the mobo. And how I'm I supposed to instal 3 optical drives, an SSD and a HHD into micro-ATX case?

I chose the Samsung because it is supposed to have good performance for the price. What SSD would you suggest?

ggumdol wrote:

iii) Have you considered an all-in-one USB sound card & speaker system, for instance, Sound BlasterAxx SBX 10 which is equipped with Bluetooth module?

Not that one in particular, but have considered USB External Sound Cards, but I fear USB interface will be to slow, so it might add latency.

ggumdol wrote:

iv) I've been using Corsiar RM450 in one of my rigs (not shown in my signature) and I can confirm that it is dead silent without any trace of coil whining whatsoever. Even 450W seems to be excessive for your suggested system.

I checked this one. It's price is about 60% of the Ax760 at local dealer. But AX760 is platinum, whereas RM450 is gold. That doesn't make that much difference, right?

There seems to be a severe lack of benchmarks for Adobe Audition. None of the reviews got past the features list. sigh.

CPU: If your current 2.5GHz 2 core/4 thread CPU is bogging you down now, then do you want to limit the performance of the 4 core/8 thread i7? If it uses all four cores, the speed is only 2GHz. You'll only see the turbo modes when less than 4 cores are used and will never see 3GHz when running Audition. My guess is you'll see tasks completing in half the time moving from the i3-2100T to the i7-4765T (2x cores and 80% clock speed offset by Haswell's performance bump over Sandy Bridge). If you went with the 84W TDP i7-4770, this would drop down to around 30% of the time needed now (all assuming CPU is the chokepoint). You need to be a little more careful on cooling, but then you'd have the performance when time matters. All you might need is to add a low rpm rear fan to get front to back airflow. Don't expect lot of convective cooling through the top air vents.

Audio: In general, I think you are better off staying digital within the PC and doing the d/a conversion externally. Lower noise floor and less spurious signals. Are all your input sources digital or are there analog sources as well?

760W PSU: Hey, it's your money Just note that the PSU fan will NEVER turn on. At your levels of load, the RM450 will be very close to the AX in efficiency. Close to unoticable.

Samsung Evo: is a fine SSD. Those torture tests are doing extreme levels of writes and under normal use it'll last for a very long time.

micro-ATX is not an option. How am I supposed to fit CR-C95 in there? It sits about 6mm above top side of the mobo. That's why I chose that large case. Because out of the pictures in the review I saw that it has enough space above the mobo. And how I'm I supposed to instal 3 optical drives, an SSD and a HHD into micro-ATX case?

I made the mistake of thinking that you were planning to use only one of the three optical drives because it is such a rare case. You would better stick with ATX chassis.

I chose the Samsung because it is supposed to have good performance for the price. What SSD would you suggest?

In Scandinavia, Intel and Samsung SSDs are comparably priced and I have a personal distrust againt Samsung, which is inexplicable (or rather personal). That's probably why I ended up with Intel SSDs in the end. I'm merely trying to help you make an informed decision.

loty1825 wrote:

ggumdol wrote:

iv) I've been using Corsiar RM450 in one of my rigs (not shown in my signature) and I can confirm that it is dead silent without any trace of coil whining whatsoever. Even 450W seems to be excessive for your suggested system.

I checked this one. It's price is about 60% of the Ax760 at local dealer. But AX760 is platinum, whereas RM450 is gold. That doesn't make that much difference, right?

It does make a significant difference. RM450 might raise the air temperature inside the chassis due to its lower grade. However, Ax760 has been reported to generate coil whining. I find it a little bit hard to fathom out how come you care less about coil whining of the system mainly used for audio/sound editing rather than sacrificing power efficiency. Anyway, it's your money.

Thank you very much for pointing me in the right direction. I tested Adobe Audition and it uses just a single thread and CPU usage is 25% so it uses that single thread to the full. So indeed I don't need the 8 threads of the i7. I need a CPU that performs well with single thread. i5-4570T is 35W TDP, costs less, but operates on higher frequency, so it should be faster than i7-4765T, right?

I wouldn't dare to run 84W TDP processor without additional fan, because that's quite close to 95W TDP limit CR-C95 heatsink can take. But what's the point of adding additional exhaust fan? Wouldn't it then be better to choose a heatsink that costs less (like Megahalems for example) and attach a large slow fan to it? I guess fan placed on the CPU heatsink in the middle of the case would be less audible than the exhaust one, right? And since I don't have use for 8 threads, wouldn't it be better to choose i5-4670 over i7-4770? They both run at same frequencies, but the i5 costs less.

There's are also 45W and 65W Haswells. Might I consider one of those also?

I like the idea of external DAC more and more. I did some research and decent ones seem to cost more than the Xonar Essence, but if I save some of the budget on the CPU and PSU, I might be able to afford one.

What do you guys think of Seasonic X-400 FL PSU? It's fanless, 80 Plus Platinum and priced in between the RM450 and the AX760.

I would also consider Fractal Design Define XL R2 FD-CA-DEF-XL-R2-BL Black/Pearl Steel ATX Full Tower Computer Case, atm on sale $90 is a pretty nice price for that case. Things that i like over the P280, the hdd cages are more solid, the case comes with moduvents where the P280 comes with open top, The XL comes with 140mm fan mounts while the P280 comes with 120 (this can be seen as good or bad, depends on the user preference of fans but antec true quiet 140s are pretty solid cheap fans).

Im also not sure why you going with a such a big case, some simply like big, but if its due to the opticals need of 3 slots, then also consider

I have heard good things about the ST, but never really tried it, but CA_Steve seems on spot into the PCI. Personally i didnt like what i read about the lower end Xonars into drivers and using unified.... kinda scared me and i just went with Omega eClaro, really great card, expensive but i have no issues to report, their drivers seems solid, and to me the best sound i have every had on a PC till today.

loty1825 wrote:

Mobo: Intel DQ87PG

Btw just a comment, i have two builds atm with intel motherboards, and both can drop very low PWM fans, you can check my signature on download station and HTPC, in there you will see noctua pwm and scythe pwm that were droped below 400rpms on pure bios, i really dont know how is intel now a days on like on your Q87, but my guess is similar to mine, so PWM fans could be an options aswell and not depend on fanmate. For example on the 330R i would go with Noctua NF-A14 PWM for the front and Noctua NF-S12A PWM for the back exhaust, all this fans you can see them on my signature working on an intel motherboard.

I would also consider Fractal Design Define XL R2 FD-CA-DEF-XL-R2-BL Black/Pearl Steel ATX Full Tower Computer Case, atm on sale $90 is a pretty nice price for that case. Things that i like over the P280, the hdd cages are more solid, the case comes with moduvents where the P280 comes with open top, The XL comes with 140mm fan mounts while the P280 comes with 120 (this can be seen as good or bad, depends on the user preference of fans but antec true quiet 140s are pretty solid cheap fans).

Im also not sure why you going with a such a big case, some simply like big, but if its due to the opticals need of 3 slots, then also consider

Its a wonderful fan, i own 7 on my server, but its more like 850rpm, i would use this on 330r for the exhaust. As an alternative Nexus Basic 120 are cheap and still pretty solid fans, so are the Scythe Gentle Typhoons, all three were reviewed in [url=http://www.silentpcreview.com/article1266-page1.html]SPCR Fan Roundup #6: Scythe, Noiseblocker, Antec, Nexus, Thermalright

I chose P280, because it has enough room above the upper edge of the mobo, for the huge CR-95C heatsink. Can't get buy the Nanoxia and Crosair around here and the Fractal Design costs a bit more, than the Antec. For now I'm only considering a slow front fan to cool down the hard drive under 40°C. I guess about 500RPM 120mm should be more than enough. I plan to use NB-Multiframe M12-S1 to do that job, slowed down with Zalman Fanmate 2.

Abula wrote:

Btw just a comment, i have two builds atm with intel motherboards, and both can drop very low PWM fans, you can check my signature on download station and HTPC, in there you will see noctua pwm and scythe pwm that were droped below 400rpms on pure bios, i really dont know how is intel now a days on like on your Q87, but my guess is similar to mine, so PWM fans could be an options aswell and not depend on fanmate.

I don't have much choice around here with the boards. The Intel one is more or less the only Q87 board I can buy. There's also a SuperMicro model available with that chipset, but costs twice as much. Don't think it's worth it. And there's a dealer that has some Gigabyte model, but he can't supply all the parts to build a working system. So I couldn't buy Windows DSP with my new PC if I bought the board from him.

As far as I understand PWM reads data from mobo temperature sensors. So how can that be helpful if I wan't to cool down the hard drive. Let's say hard drive tmeperature is fine at lowest fan R.P.M. If the spot on mobo, where sensor is located gets warmer it will raise the R.P.M. and make unnecessary noise, because the hard drive doesn't need more cooling.

As for cooling CPU's PWM can be handy, but I fell I can't get enough control over it in my current system. I use stock CPU cooler. PWM in BIOS is set to the lowest setting, and the fan never spins slower than 1300RPM, eventhough CPU temperatures mostly sit around 45°C never rise above 50°C, which is still 15°C lower than max. allowed temperature.

No way to know, its the luck of the draw, personally i think its a combination of hardware, not all have this issue, for example i own two seasonic x series (660 and 400) both been perfect.

loty1825 wrote:

I don't have much choice around here with the boards. The Intel one is more or less the only Q87 board I can buy.

Dont worry the intel should be fine, i also did my HTPC on a Q67 board and all work out fine, and if the cheapest you can get and available, you should be fine with it. Although check if they have B85 or H87 versions of the intel mobos as they should be cheaper... but you never know.

loty1825 wrote:

There's also a SuperMicro model available with that chipset, but costs twice as much.

I built my server on Supermicro motherboard, and its a great motherboard but has a ton of things that might not be worth it to you, so i would stick with the intel as its cheaper.

loty1825 wrote:

As far as I understand PWM reads data from mobo temperature sensors. So how can that be helpful if I wan't to cool down the hard drive. Let's say hard drive tmeperature is fine at lowest fan R.P.M. If the spot on mobo, where sensor is located gets warmer it will raise the R.P.M. and make unnecessary noise, because the hard drive doesn't need more cooling.

Well in reality there is no motherboard that i know that could use the the temp on hdds no matter if its PWM or not, the boards come with mulitple sensors on them (CPU, Sys temp, etc), on most intel motherboards the CPU temp is what drives the PWM signal, as it is in most (not all). Personally i dont think you should worry about hdd temps, most of the green hdds will not even need direct cooling, i have had most of my hdds on my pc without a fan and been fine for years, even if its a low rpm it should be fine. I be more worried about maintaining the CPU temps under control, thus about the airflow on the case.

Now i think your idea of the Noiseblocker M12 S1 is great, and should work fine. But if down the road you want to try PWM fans, the intel mobo should be fine also, just its important to chose fans that can drop low on pwm signal, if you do consider Noctua NF-S12A PWM and a cheaper good alternative Scythe Glide Stream SY1225HB12M-P (300-1300rpm).

loty1825 wrote:

As for cooling CPU's PWM can be handy, but I fell I can't get enough control over it in my current system. I use stock CPU cooler. PWM in BIOS is set to the lowest setting, and the fan never spins slower than 1300RPM, eventhough CPU temperatures mostly sit around 45°C never rise above 50°C, which is still 15°C lower than max. allowed temperature.

Remember the PWM signal is just a signal that we interpret as a load in %, so it will depend on the design of the fan, for example the intel cooler uses an 60mm fan (or 80 not sure), but due to the size and that intel standardizes their coolers, they design it so it doesn't go much lower than 1300rpm, but other fans are design differently like the ones above, they can be drop down below 400rpm on pure bios (as long as the motherboard allows it, intel in my experience does). Here is the fan curve for Noctua NF-S12A PWM on Asus motherboard with FanXpert2 on a true PWM fan header (CPU_FAN),

Just for your reference, i also tested recently one of my Noiseblocker M12-S1 on the Asus motherboard with FanXpert2 on a fake 4pin (voltage controlled CHA_FAN3) header, here is the graph in case its useful to you,

At the end is a matter of preference, 3pin is fine and 4pin PWM is also fine, personally i just prefer PWM as i can plan my setup to dynamically ramp up without any software depending on the conditions of my CPU. Usually all my fans case fans on all my builds are at 300rpm or lower, and once the temps of the cpu rises the rpms rises, and if the cpu temp lowers the fans rpms lowers as well.

What version of Audition are you using? Later versions might use multicore. Adobe sidesteps a full answer for the CC version:

Quote:

Does Adobe Audition CC support hyperthreading and multicore processors?

Yes, Adobe Audition CC is optimized to work with current multicore CPUs.

Note the don't say anything about hyperthreading...

Anyway, if you stick with your single threaded version, here's a bit more clarity. Just because one core is running at 100%, doesn't mean the entire CPU is running at 100% - it's not like a car's engine where all the pistons fire in lockstep. So, an 84W CPU that only stressing one core won't be using 84W.

Quote:

But what's the point of adding additional exhaust fan? Wouldn't it then be better to choose a heatsink that costs less (like Megahalems for example) and attach a large slow fan to it?

Yep.

Quote:

And since I don't have use for 8 threads, wouldn't it be better to choose i5-4670 over i7-4770? They both run at same frequencies, but the i5 costs less.

Yep.

Quote:

There's are also 45W and 65W Haswells. Might I consider one of those also?

You could. The same argument applies - if all you need is 1 core for Audition, then get the processor with the fastest single threaded clock rate (where it's base or turbo). If you end up with a version of Audition that uses multicores, then get the quad core with the fastest base clock.

As a reckless attempt to counter-balance the opinions of CA_Steve and Abula on PSU aspect, and to help you comprehend the whole landscape better, I must add that I have been tolerating constant coil whining from my Seasonic Platinum Fanless 400W (SS-400FL2) for a long time. I'm not sure how to describe it in the best way but it sounds like very high frequency, quite regular noise, piercing my ears (allegorically). I am very often tempted to replace it with whatever Corsair RM series PSUs whenever I turn on my HTPC.

I will probably not buy any Seasonic PSU again in the future. It is a matter of your preference, whether you prioritise power efficiency or dead silence. It is a bit surprising for me that they are recommending potentially coil whining PSUs in "Silent PC Review", but on second thought, it might be just that the PSUs they possess happen to be very quiet, as opposed to my Seasonic PSU.

There's also a SuperMicro model available with that chipset, but costs twice as much.

I have a custom built SuperMicro server too, but never tested any features of the mobo. I use it as VMWare ESXi server. ESXi was installed in a few minutes and it's been running for almost 4 years 24/7. So I can't complain about quality or reliability. But the PSU bothers me, because it's loud as a jet. Thank god I don't have it in my living room, but hopefully I will replace that PSU someday, but there's always some other expenses.

Abula wrote:

on most intel motherboards the CPU temp is what drives the PWM signal, as it is in most (not all).

Good to know that.

Abula wrote:

most of the green hdds will not even need direct cooling, i have had most of my hdds on my pc without a fan and been fine for years

I know hard drive wouldn't die if temperature is a bit high, but I still like to have drives properly cooled down. I've never had a WD green drive. If it will be cool enough without a fan, even better. I'll buy the PC without the Noiseblocker. I'll have to get the Noiseblocker froma abroad, because I can't get those at local dealers anyway. If the drive won't stay cool enough, I'll order the fan and while I wait for it to arrive, stock case fan will do the cooling.[/quote]

Abula wrote:

I be more worried about maintaining the CPU temps under control, thus about the airflow on the case.

Yeah but as I already said - I see no point in buying expensive passive CPU heatsink, if I then need to add case fans for the airflow. I'd rather use a cheaper heatsink with quiet fan in that case. Because it would be less audible than case fans and wouldn't need any additional airflow for sure.[/quote]

Here is the fan curve for Noctua NF-S12A PWM on Asus motherboard with FanXpert2 on a true PWM fan header (CPU_FAN)

This software looks pretty awesome. Does it only work on Asus mobos? If you choose RPM mode, can you define exact RPM you want at specific temperature?

Abula wrote:

Just for your reference, i also tested recently one of my Noiseblocker M12-S1 on the Asus motherboard with FanXpert2 on a fake 4pin (voltage controlled CHA_FAN3) header, here is the graph in case its useful to you

How do you fake 4-pin?

Abula wrote:

Usually all my fans case fans on all my builds are at 300rpm or lower, and once the temps of the cpu rises the rpms rises, and if the cpu temp lowers the fans rpms lowers as well.

Yeah, but if CPU temperature rises it doesn't mean that HDD temperature also rises that much to need more cooling. But if fan speed never rises above 500RPM or so and stay at 300RPM most of the time, it's still very quiet. I can't get it why no manufacturer came to idea to make mobos that regulate one of the case fans according to hard drive temperatures. And also to make PWM controllers like in semi-passive PSU's, so fans would spin just when they realy need to.

What version of Audition are you using? Later versions might use multicore. Adobe sidesteps a full answer for the CC version:

Quote:

Does Adobe Audition CC support hyperthreading and multicore processors?

Yes, Adobe Audition CC is optimized to work with current multicore CPUs.

Note the don't say anything about hyperthreading...

I use Audition CS6. Their answer is not definitive, so I tested Audition CC trial. The GUI is lightning fast compared to the CS6. I had both versions do the same job for comparison. CC finished in 1min 19sec, CS6 in 2min 58sec, so CC must utilize the resources in much better way. But CPU usage charts for both versions looked similar:

CC:

CS6:

CA_Steve wrote:

Anyway, if you stick with your single threaded version, here's a bit more clarity. Just because one core is running at 100%, doesn't mean the entire CPU is running at 100% - it's not like a car's engine where all the pistons fire in lockstep. So, an 84W CPU that only stressing one core won't be using 84W.

I know CPU's hardly ever reach TDP, but what if people at Nofan had that in mind when they badged CR-95C to handle 95W TDP CPU's?

Quote:

There's are also 45W and 65W Haswells. Might I consider one of those also?

You could. The same argument applies - if all you need is 1 core for Audition, then get the processor with the fastest single threaded clock rate (where it's base or turbo). If you end up with a version of Audition that uses multicores, then get the quad core with the fastest base clock.

I compared my current i3-2100T whit Haswell CPU's I can get at local dealers with data I got from cpuworld.com. And made this table:

I'd rather choose the 65W i7-4770S over the 84W i7-4770. Almost same single threaded performance and price, but lower TDP. The i5-4670S isn't much behind, but the price is considerably lower. i7-4770T is interesting because of 45W TDP and also not that bad performance, but it's pricy. i3-4340 is best non-turbo, so I'd be sure to have those 3.6 Ghz always available, only 54W and it's cheap. I don't have single thread performance data for i5-4570T, but having similar characterstics to i3-4340, I think it's a bit slower but probably fastest 35W choice.

Damn you Intel for making so many choices It seems the prices are what you pay is what you get. Now I'm still not sure do I only need single threading or not? So right now I'm leaning towards the 65W i7-4770S. I guess I will be able to cool this one without additional exhaust fan?

Looking at the Audition task manager images, both of your cores are being used, but not at 100%. Perhaps there's some other limiter in your current system? Or, maybe Audition is set up to only utilize up to x percent of a core?

Looking at the Audition task manager images, both of your cores are being used, but not at 100%. Perhaps there's some other limiter in your current system? Or, maybe Audition is set up to only utilize up to x percent of a core?

I don't think there's some limiter in the system. A single instance of prime95 doesn't have any trouble using all 4 CPU's to 100%. It must be Audition setup this way.

If I get it right CPU0 is 1st thread of 1st core, CPU1 is 2nd thread of 1st core, CPU2 is 1st thread of 2nd core and CPU3 is 2nd thread of 2nd core. So I guess it uses single thread per core, no hyperthreading.

I posted a question regarding this on Audition forum. I'll wait and see if I get any answers.

Guys on the Audition forum told me, that Audition can make use of multi-threading, but it depends on the process/effect it is doing. If the process can benefit by using multiple-threads, it will use them. But there are many processes in which current chunk of audio depends on previous chunk, so they can't make use for multiple threads.

I also came across this article in which Intel explains that Task Manager can't tell real utilization of CPU time, and why. It suggest using Intel Performance Counter Monitor instead. I played 2-tracks and recorded 1 track simultaniously using 16 CPU very intensive real time effects. Something that probably is never done in reality, but was usefull to put load on the CPU:

Light blue - Adobe Audition usage of CPU timeDark and light violet - usage of time of 1st threads of both coresDark green and light green - usage of time of 2nd threads of both coresRed - usage of CPU time

So first all 4 threads time usage jumped almost to 100%. That's were calculation of playback was taking place. After playback and recording started there still was significant usage of all 4 threads. So it seems obvious Audition can make use of multiple cores and hyper-threading. If I get it right buying i7 makes sense afterall.

Now I'm left to decide between 4770, 4770S and 4770T.In turbo all three seem quite close. As for non-turbo 4770T seems too much behind. Now the question is, how often will I see them in turbo mode? My guess is higher TDP will enter turbo modes more often because one of conditions that allow CPU to enter turbo is low enough temperature, and I imagine that lower TDP CPU's have lower temperature limit for turbo.

Benchmarks on CPU-World aswell as on cpubenchmark.net also show that 4770S performs very close to the 4770. So right now my favorite is 4770S. What do you guys think?

Nice investigation. Good to know you can make use of hyperthreading. Here's what I get out of it:

- For the initial calculation, you max out the threads. For this part, you want the highest clock for 4 active cores.

- For the second part, the individual threads never surpassed 50%. So, there's something else in your system limiting the throughput. I'm guessing the CPU is waiting for more data to crunch. Either you are maxing out the RAM and your hard drive is having to act as a buffer, or it's the limit of your hard drive moving data, or it's a limit of Audition in how it moves data...what do you have in your current system? What is your RAM use during this test run? (if we can remove these bottlenecks, then it makes sense to get the highest speed CPU. If they are an unremovable limiter, then it doesn't make sense to go for the highest speed CPU.)

I guest I forgot to add it to my table. It's just a little faster (it's performance is rated 0.2% better here and it costs just a little more than the 4770, so it might make sense to choose this one if I decide to go with 84W TDP. It's base frequency is 100Mhz higher but I doubt I'd notice any difference in performance while using it.

- For the initial calculation, you max out the threads. For this part, you want the highest clock for 4 active cores.

That would be 4770 and 4771, both at 3.7 Ghz. But 4770S and 4770T are also close.

CA_Steve wrote:

- For the second part, the individual threads never surpassed 50%. So, there's something else in your system limiting the throughput. I'm guessing the CPU is waiting for more data to crunch. Either you are maxing out the RAM and your hard drive is having to act as a buffer, or it's the limit of your hard drive moving data, or it's a limit of Audition in how it moves data...what do you have in your current system? What is your RAM use during this test run?

As you see RAM usage is 100%. And there's also many hard faults per second. Some googleing revealed that hard faults happen when an address is no longer in RAM because it has been swapped to the swap file. But RAM usage is at 100% already when the initial calculation starts. So it still may be, the way Audition works with threads.

My system has 4GB of RAM and hard drive is 250GB Seagate Barracuda 7200.10.

Here's my chance to suggest a low cost upgrade: Put another 4GB of RAM in there (assuming you are running a 64-bit OS) and call it a day. Or, just add a 2 x 4GB pair. You could double your throughput for less than $50. If that maxes out your CPU loading, then you are CPU limited. If it doesn't then it might be the HDD or Audition...but,

I doubt the HDD is limiting your throughput as it's just audio bit rates. Even 16 tracks of audio isn't a ton of data.

If you are CPU limited, then the next cheapest step up would be to just swap out the i3-2100T for a socket 1155 i5. See if your mobo is Ivy Bridge compatible. If it is, then pop in an i5 or i7 3xxx. If it isn't, just get a Sandy Bridge i5 or i7. If the CPU isn't maxing out, it's time to add an SSD.

Haswell is nice and dandy, but it's benefits are slim when you already have a socket 1155 mobo.

I intend to keep my current system, because I have some other plans for it, so I won't upgrade it. I'm going for a completely new build.

I checked with a local vendor and I can buy RAM in advance and later the rest of the build without RAM and still get Windows DSP licence. So I could try buying 2x4GB DD3 1600MHz RAM kit first and test if Audition will use more CPU time in my current system.

But I want to have low voltage RAM in my new build. My current mobo is Gigabyte GA-H77-DS3H. In it's specification only 1.5V RAM is listed as supported, and 1600MHz RAM is supported only on Ivy Bridge CPU's, but mine is Sandy Bridge, so it wont run on 1600MHz but on 1333MHz. And running low-voltage RAM on 1.5V won't burn it, right?

But it complicates even more. If I decide for the Nofan cooler, RAM must not be taller than 34mm according to this test, and to this test it has to be lower than 32mm. Nofan states the height of RAM can't be higher than 40mm, measured from surface of the board, which makes it a few mm less than 40. So to make sure it fits, the RAM height should be less than 32mm.

This Wiki article states that usual RAM heights are 1.5" (~38mm) or 1.7" (~43mm). Low-profile RAM height is ~1.2mm (~30mm). So any RAM that would fit is low-profile according to Wiki.

Intel states here that their mobos may have issues with low profile RAM:

Quote:

Low-profile DIMMsLow-profile (half-height) memory modules can cause any of the following symptoms:

System is unable to boot (stuck at POST code E0, 27, or 2E) System displays intermittent lock up issues in the operating system if left unattended System randomly reboots itself

I have no idea how physical size of RAM could cause such issues, but apparently it can.

So before I buy new RAM, I must make a decision CR-95C - yes or no? If I choose yes, I must choose another mobo, and there's not much choice at local vendors. But it depends on TDP of CPU I'll use so I'm a kind of running in circles, because I must test performance with more RAM before I choose the CPU.

I wanted to try out passive cooling on my CPU very badly, but there's so much complication around it that I'm thinking of dropping this passively cooled CPU idea. It would uncomplicate the configuration so much and save me some money too. Do you guys think it's worth it?

Personally, I'd toss out the no-fan and just get a decent tower cooler. The added benefit is your mobo VRM circuitry would then get some cooling, too.

Yup

Fanless works best with low power systems. Go to any CPU/GPU/Board that exceeds, say, 50~70W (DC) during high load applications (not stress programs), and the system heat becomes increasingly harder to evacuate without a fan. One fan, two fans, even 3 fans -- hardly any difference in noise level, if you work it right. And as Steve says, the airflow over the motherboard really can make a difference in longevity and stability.

I definitely am trying to build a system as low power as possible, but it still much offer considerably more performance than my current system. We'll see how much power will the system draw at the end and what CPU cooler will be suitable, but first task is to buy more RAM for my current system, to see how it will affect CPU time usage across all four threads.

Since I'm trying to go as low power as possible I'm considering buying G.SKill F3-12800CL9D-8GBSR2. It's a 2x4GB kit that can operate at only 1.25V. It's the lowest voltage DDR3 1600 I came across, but It's more than 40mm tall though so it wouldn't fit under CR-95C. Maybe it would fit if I removed the heatshields.

Out of the list of three mobos I was choosing from I noticed that the Intel DQ87PG still uses the old type capacitors. So I doubt about it's quality and it's not on the list anymore. SuperMicro X10SLQ costs 220€ (which is twice the Intel BTW), and I couldn't find it mentioned in the manual, that it's possible to change RAM voltage in BIOS, so it's off the list too. Gigabyte Q87M-D2H costs 127€ and there's no option in BIOS to set RAM voltage manually, but it is set automatically by SDP or XMP. SDP setting for the G.SKill RAM is 1.5V. Would XMP would set it to 1.25V? I'm keeping the board on the list for now.

24-7 Burn-in Test: ASUS tests are hotter, more humid and 3 times longer than the rest of the industry. Our designs go through 7 days of burn-in tests in the most extreme environment of 55°C and 90% humidity.

This does sound like a board which would deal pretty well with poorly cooled environmet (such ass passively or low speed fan cooled computers). And it has option to set RAM voltage manually even as low as 1.185V. I haven't found any vendors in my country that would be selling it, but one of them might be able to supply it so I'm waiting for his answer. There's also option of buying it in neighbouring country, just 2 hours on motorway to get there, where it costs about 130€. The mobo manual states that it's not compatible with memory modules with 512 megabit or smaller chips. G.Skill doesn't say anything about chip size in specification, but if a module has 4GB capacity, that's 4096MB, or 4096*8 = 32768 Mbit. I saw a photo of the RAM without the heatshield, and there are 8 chips on one side and I suppose 8 chips on the other, for total of 16. So 32768 Mbits/16 = 2048 Mbits per chip. Are my assumptions right?

What do you think would the G.Skill RAM and the Asus mobo be a good choice, or would you suggest something else? If you have any suggestions for the mobo, I want it to be Q87 chipset.

The good news is that memory has an SPD voltage of 1.5V. So, you can try it out on your existing rig. You need to make sure it's compatible with whatever mobo you get (I see a QVL list on the webpage).

A side note: Low voltage RAM can save a few watts (in the 1-3W range). Hotter VRM circuitry is less efficient, causing it to use a few more watts. A fan might draw a few watts.

motherboard: That Asus mobo might be a rare beast. It's not offered by a US e-tailer that I can see. No reviews, either.

Something else to consider - Get a Z87 board. Yeah, you don't need RAID or overclocking..but, it will provide you with all of the BIOS flexibility you might need for RAM (voltages, timings, speed settings, modes). Also, it would then give you the option to just get an i5-4670K or i7-4770K and undervolt it at stock speed...or undervolt and underclock it further to match the S parts or T parts. If you truly don't need the speed, you can do some serious underclocking. If you do need it, then you'll still get close to S TDP just from a slight undervolting. <shrugs>

Whatever mobo you decide on, make sure it's compatible with the cooler.

The Asus mobo is not on that RAM's QVL. It's on G.Skill ECO models QVL. They're 3.5V which is O.K. but just 1333MHz, so I wouldn't take those. And compatible RAM list for the mobo on Asus Website is empty. It's a kind of hard to find RAM that I can be 100% sure it will be compatible. But any DD3 with larger than 512Mbit chips should work, right?

I want to have Intel vPro features, so Q87 is the only option. And I wouldn't count on undervolting, because it can cause poor CPU stability. And I suppose Haswells that can be stable at lower voltage probably get labeled as S and T series.

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