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Re: Odd Thoughts: Shameful loss to the Raptors

You guys tell me what's wrong.

I know what's wrong, the Pacers signed a guy that's never going to be dominant to a salary that's meant for players that are above average, close to star or superstar, like I said before, the Pacers FO were/are hoping that a lot of things work in their favor just like they did last year, they were/are hoping that Roy doesn't disappear like he has done pretty much every year for about two or three months.

They were/are hoping that someway somehow Gerald Green becomes the player Boston thought he was going to be five years ago.

They were/are hoping that Paul George becomes a superstar so they could have a chance to make it to the finals with the team they put around him.

They were/are hoping that Ian Mahinmi is not as bad as he was in Dallas and that his hands got better.

They were hoping that Danny's knee issues didn't come back to haunt him.

At the end of the day a good FO is not making moves and signing people out of hope, this is a business you get the known commodity, that's just what good teams do.

Re: Odd Thoughts: Shameful loss to the Raptors

I agree with this plus the impact of no Granger, no Collison, and no true sharpshooter. All these things are factors in a complex, yet frustrating equation.

All of this said, the one thing the players can control night in and night out is effort and intensity. Right now, we are not getting it consistently. We're getting two or three guys truly busting their *** for a win each night while the rest just saunter around like zombies out there. That is absolutely unacceptable. Motivation/Desire is just horseshit right now.

Whoops, meant to respond to Big Rik with quote...

Last night, it came down to this: the Pacers could literally not make a shot when they needed to. The Pacers played like crap but were still given many opportunities to take charge in the 4th quarter, but laid an egg. I'm not sure how much is the coach's fault (every team knows every team's sets, or they should). I think the team started believing the hype, that they were a shoe in for the 2 seed in the east, and guess what? They aren't. I don't think the sky is falling (yet), but the team has to start playing well soon, maybe even shoot better than 32%. The opportunity is there, it is up to the Pacers to seize it.

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Re: Odd Thoughts: Shameful loss to the Raptors

I really can't believe there are folks climbing on the defense after this game. Yeah, I know, the excuse is that the Raptors were tired, but if someone tells you the opponent will score 74 points - and only 5 in the fourth quarter - how many people here would talk about that as the sign of a poor defense and that the Pacers would lose the game?

Did the Pacers miss open looks? Yes. However, once again they were totally unsuccessful at getting high-percentage shots because the opponent can clog the middle and dare us to make outside jumpers. No one tries to drive the lane and draw a foul - heck, I'd take a turnover on a charge at this point if it would fire someone up. Every shot under the basket is contested by at least 2 defenders - and when it isn't, the posted ballhandler inexplicably passes out to the perimeter for a beautiful brick.

It is 8 games, and I will continue to reserve judgement until at least 10 (with an adjustment at 20), but as of right now this is one of the worst offensive teams I have ever seen.

All that said, we got upgraded to 7th row last night and I saw Tyler make one of the most beautiful defensive plays I've ever seen. I don't remember if it was a rebound or a pass, but he used his left hand to deflect it up and over his man's head then back tapped it with his right and turned to block his man away and continue his dribble up court. It was fantastic.

BillS

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

Re: Odd Thoughts: Shameful loss to the Raptors

I know what's wrong, the Pacers signed a guy that's never going to be dominant to a salary that's meant for players that are above average, close to star or superstar, like I said before, the Pacers FO were/are hoping that a lot of things work in their favor just like they did last year, they were/are hoping that Roy doesn't disappear like he has done pretty much every year for about two or three months.

They were/are hoping that someway somehow Gerald Green becomes the player Boston thought he was going to be five years ago.

They were/are hoping that Paul George becomes a superstar so they could have a chance to make it to the finals with the team they put around him.

They were/are hoping that Ian Mahinmi is not as bad as he was in Dallas and that his hands got better.

They were hoping that Danny's knee issues didn't come back to haunt him.

At the end of the day a good FO is not making moves and signing people out of hope, this is a business you get the known commodity, that's just what good teams do.

You are exactly right. The Pacers mindset that certain type players won't come here is just plain wrong. They had a chance in the off season to do something special and blew it big time. We are back to the days of overrating average players and paying them way too much money. No team should be at the top of the cap and not have a go to player on the team. We have a team of nothing more than role players. Not one player makes his teammates better. Augustine looks like he is bored to death. I never thought I would miss Collison but he is far better than Augustine. People need to stop valuing Hibbert because he is a good guy and good in the community. He needs to produce on the floor. He is nowhere near a max player or an all star. We spent alot of money on a big scoreboard apparently to try to draw fans. The players should be drawing fans. GET A STAR who can deliver in the clutch and stop making excuses instead of getting all excited because someone can jump high enough to look down at the basket. They give no points for that, it means nothing.

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Re: Odd Thoughts: Shameful loss to the Raptors

I think it comes down to one thing: out of sync. WHen your offense is out of sync, it makes everyone look bad. I tend to think that we're just a few adjustments, a few games, and some extra work on the practice court away from getting back into an offensive groove. Everything is exacerbated. I just don't think it's as bad as everyone is making it out to be --- BUT, they definitely need to get it figured out quick. We don't have a month to throw away.

PG is only 22, and I just think he's a few years away from being the offensive player people want him to be. He's greatest defensively and on the boards, but mentally he's not there yet in a lot of aspects. He'll intersperse some really stupid plays amongst his good plays.

Lance has developed into a surprise.

Hibbert has been pretty disappointing, but he's also probly one of the biggest products of the team being in sync. WHen the team is in sync, Hibbert looks like a beast, and when it's not, he looks really off.

George Hill, I can't complain about his play. DWest has been decent too, but he's had lapses of focus.

TYLER HANSBROUGH always comes through for this team in its darkest days. I'm tellin ya: in 2010 when Vogel took over and this team was in absolute disarray, playing worse that it is now, it was Tyler Hansbrough who was the ONLY guy who didn't give up and elevated his play. We rode him all the way to the playoffs from the precipice. He's doing it again this year. We look bad, and Tyler is out there busting his balls. I don't care what anyone says, and I especially didn't care for all the "trade him now" posts last year. I like the kid. He had an off year last year, but he is playing the right way again. And it's showing dividends, as Vogel is rewarding him by keeping him in down the stretch, and I really can't argue with the decision.

I think they'll get it worked out.

There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

Re: Odd Thoughts: Shameful loss to the Raptors

I know what's wrong, the Pacers signed a guy that's never going to be dominant to a salary that's meant for players that are above average, close to star or superstar, like I said before, the Pacers FO were/are hoping that a lot of things work in their favor just like they did last year, they were/are hoping that Roy doesn't disappear like he has done pretty much every year for about two or three months.

They were/are hoping that someway somehow Gerald Green becomes the player Boston thought he was going to be five years ago.

They were/are hoping that Paul George becomes a superstar so they could have a chance to make it to the finals with the team they put around him.

They were/are hoping that Ian Mahinmi is not as bad as he was in Dallas and that his hands got better.

They were hoping that Danny's knee issues didn't come back to haunt him.

At the end of the day a good FO is not making moves and signing people out of hope, this is a business you get the known commodity, that's just what good teams do.

In all the were/are hoping that the FO did they did at least get one right in Lance. Other than that, long-term investment and strategy in our bench was put to the side.

Re: Odd Thoughts: Shameful loss to the Raptors

It's interesting that Peck dumped so much on Frank. I was also at the game and thought I saw several changes in the offense. more options that gave guys good shots. The problem was those guys missed those shots. I don't see the Frank hate for this game. He did pretty much all that a coach can do. I have some issues with the amount of time he's playing the guys that can play, but I do understand why he's doing it. At some point, Frank will have pick at least 8 guys and start playing them 35 mpg instead of playing the old starters 40 mpg. Guys are going to wear out and no one will be able to play. At some point he has to start dancing with who he has.

The Danny sucks in spite of the evidence that he doesn't shtick is getting old to me. I didn't count them, but it seemed that Toronto posted our SF's every other time down the court. Linas Klenza, DeRozan, and the dude from Fresno State shoved our wing defenders under the basket and either forced double teams or just shot over them all night. Some day Paul will be a good post defender, but it wasn't last night. Neither was Lance or Gerald. When none of your wing types can guard Linas Klenza, you have real issues. Pretty sure Danny could guard any of those guys pretty easily. Danny's defense is often criticized here, but the Pacers really missed it last night.

Pacers missed Danny Granger last night. Evidently he is the only guy on the team that can do that little mid-post post and get that 13-15 footer Peck talks about. I keep waiting for Paul to start doing that. But evidently he just isn't strong enough yet.

Paul just isn't there yet. His game is better than last years, to be sure. But he seems like the early Jalen Rose in the sense he can do everything ok, but nothing good enough. He is young, and is still getting better, but he still has an almost good enough game. Plus I don't think he's tired enough of getting beat. One of the things that seems to make most good NBA players good players is they really really really don't like losing games. Paul doesn't seem to like losing, but it also doesn't seem to bother him after the games over. A dash of Jeff Foster would help.

Speaking of young. I think that's a contributing factor. The Pacers two most talented players are the youngest. That has to be an issue. When things are going good, young guys play well. When things start to fall apart, young guys get worse. There is a mental toughness that comes from experience.

FWIW, the money spent on George Hill last summer was money well spent. Dude is fearless, unselfish, smart, totally coachable, defends and scores. All he wants to do is win. and is willing to do whatever it takes to win. The more guys you have like that on a team, the better that team is.

The money spent on Roy last summer, meh. I know the team had to pay him. I get that. But right now, Roy is suffering from big contract syndrome. He made lots of money last summer, he's getting lots of props for his community outreach and had professional success last season. As with most guys, he's lost sight of just exactly how hard it is to be a really good NBA player. He's a little out of shape. He's not playing well. He's feeling sorry for himself. Danny is not playing, so he needs to do more to make up for that. The checks keep coming in no matter how he plays. So he's got his head up his as a result. At some point, he will start to play better. He is a good guy that wants to do well. He's just having trouble handling success. More evidence of the youth of this team. His issues fall into the 'what doesn't kill you just makes you stronger' category. At some point he will emerge from this funk mentally stronger and more professional. But right now, he sucks.

To make a long story short, it's the players, playing bad. When they get tired of losing, they will start playing hard enough to start winning. And it not having Danny Granger on the court. Getting Danny back will fix a host of issues.

Although, I do think Lance can hit the 15 footer post up you mentioned that only Danny pulls off. He just needs the green light.

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"I like our group of people," Ainge told USA Today. "I'm trying to teach them about basketball, and they're trying to teach me about analytics."

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Re: Odd Thoughts: Shameful loss to the Raptors

I think back to last year when we signed Barbosa and Frank said it took like 5 minutes to teach him the offense. Now, I know he was somewhat joking, but the offense is too simple.

Hibbert and Paul George were given too much credit for our success last season, then they let it give them the big head. They spend too much time worrying about their image. (I liked the flashmob deal as much as the next person, but Roy was working on that every day after training camp workouts.) Oh, and how dare you guys admit to playing video games every waking moment of your day outside of practice and games, especially right now... I'm not too old to get gaming. But **** that on the poor timing.

Lance, as I said during summer league is the only player on our team with Superstar Swagger. He is too reckless and I believe lacks the intelligence to be a star in the NBA, but he has the Lebron James, "I Got This" mentality and fire that NONE of our other players (besides MAYBE DWest) have. I still like the innocence of his character, but he reminds me of a middle schooler everytime I hear him talk. With that being said, he's currently my favorite player and Im rooting for him.

Collison brought a very cool and consistent demeanor to our team. He was good like that. Helped us gel and keep level heads. His leadership is sorely missed and we currently have nothing like him as replacement.

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Re: Odd Thoughts: Shameful loss to the Raptors

The Raptors shot 36% for the game, and you guys are talking about defense?

It just looks like the pressure is starting to get to them offensively. West and Roy missing bunnies over and over again is what killed the Pacers. You get points out of those shots, and then the game starts picking up at other spots. They're playing with zero offensive confidence.

Re: Odd Thoughts: Shameful loss to the Raptors

The Raptors shot 36% for the game, and you guys are talking about defense?

It just looks like the pressure is starting to get to them offensively. West and Roy missing bunnies over and over again is what killed the Pacers. You get points out of those shots, and then the game starts picking up at other spots. They're playing with zero offensive confidence.

Those bunny layups need to be DUNKS from our bigs. But our bigs aren't athletic enough to dunk when they need to. It's okay to have one big that can't finish in the paint consistently, but when you have two..it totally kills all offensive momentum.

Re: Odd Thoughts: Shameful loss to the Raptors

I certainly meant for it to be funny..... I actually do own cool if not the cool icon..... There is nothing like a few losses and a slump to have the overboard Pacers' fans who predicted a 60 win season get grumpy with everyone and want to fire their coach...... Most of you are blaming the team for your overblown expectations..... I suggest the proper icon for you would be

Re: Odd Thoughts: Shameful loss to the Raptors

I think you are putting to much of the blame on Frank for this loss. Honestly, this team could have won by 10-15 points if it had just hit the easy shots in front of the rim. Hibbert had one of the worst games I've seen offensively. Between him and West, I bet we hit about 25% of shots that normal teams (or at normal times) you would hit about 65% of the time. Between the blown lay-ups, and Paul George having no ability to drive with the basketball, last night was just putrid to watch. Those three were just awful.

I saw a post defending George, but I've been very disappointed with him. If he's not hitting open jumpers, he has no offensive game. The rebounding and defense have been solid to good, but the offensive output just isn't there.

Re: Odd Thoughts: Shameful loss to the Raptors

Guys I don't think I was being overly harsh on Frank, I think I was just trying to make sure he shared in the blame.

I 100% agree that its not his fault that players are missing wide open shots at first he turned and smiled at Burke when Roy missed his first couple of bunnies after the half because those were plays designed to get Roy those shots. But by about the 4th missed wide open shot he was no longer smiling.

It's a combo in my opinion, the players aren't hitting the shots that they do get and Frank is not designing enough screens & off ball movement to get open shots that the guards and small forwards can hit.

At the end of the day I want to agree with the poster above though, Danny Granger being healthy (yes I know Vnzla81 will make sure to tell us that this is no longer the case and he will be correct) would solve most of this. I also beleive that had Danny been here we would have one loss to the Spurs and that is it. Maybe Atlanta but I think he would have kept them alive myself.

Danny Granger is that good, this is more obvious now than ever. Heck the voice of the NBA Ernie Johnson called him a superstar last night, now I disagree with that btw because LeBron, Durrant, etc. are superstars and Danny is in no way near them.

But I think he is tons better than people around here ever gave him credit for.

That being said to paraphrase Rick Patino "Danny Granger isn't walking through that door". So other players have to up thier play.

Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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Re: Odd Thoughts: Shameful loss to the Raptors

If you need a healthy and back to his old 08/09 self Danny Granger to beat the Raptors, Bobcats and scrub teams you have a huge problem , yes maybe the record would look better but for what? so the Pacers can give us fake hope and get destroyed on the playoffs?

A team that's supposed to be a championship contender doesn't go to the toilet as soon as one or their best players gets hurt, just so you know SA is 7-1 and Manu has been injured and is playing limited time, according to some here they should be 1-7 because they have an excuse but guess what? Championship contenders don't make excuses.

Re: Odd Thoughts: Shameful loss to the Raptors

By the way Chicago is 4 and 3 and they are missing Derrick Rose, New York is 5 and 0 and they are missing Amare, Philly is 4 and 3 and they are missing Bynum, Minnesota is missing Rubio, Love and Varea and they are 5 and 2, I could keep going but I already made my point.

Re: Odd Thoughts: Shameful loss to the Raptors

I certainly meant for it to be funny..... I actually do own cool if not the cool icon..... There is nothing like a few losses and a slump to have the overboard Pacers' fans who predicted a 60 win season get grumpy with everyone and want to fire their coach...... Most of you are blaming the team for your overblown expectations..... I suggest the proper icon for you would be

I'm a sunshiner? You've opined wrong. Again.

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"I like our group of people," Ainge told USA Today. "I'm trying to teach them about basketball, and they're trying to teach me about analytics."

My point is you're comparing this season to last year when there was no november for the pacers to struggle through, plus the roster was also very different. They didn't have backup PG issues or a gaping hole at SF.

It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.