--- Log opened Thu Nov 29 00:00:21 2012
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14:16 #navit: < alphatango> hello
14:18 #navit: < alphatango> im a newbie, i manage to add more attributes for pois when clicking on show pois attributes, modifing osm.c and attr_def.h
14:19 #navit: < alphatango> this is the osm.c.patch http://pastebin.com/QbAKzFd4
14:21 #navit: < alphatango> and this is the attr_def.h.patch http://pastebin.com/DEWqZ923
14:23 #navit: < alphatango> in short this will add poi info like: opening_hours,capacity,cuisine,stars(used in hotels),and operator
14:25 #navit: < alphatango> as the latest version of navit only include address, phone, fax and postal code
14:28 #navit: < alphatango> some of my implementations seems to be nearly supported by navit, as i saw in osm.c the tag "addr:email", that i fixed with the current osm tag "email"
14:30 #navit: < alphatango> also some of the tag i added to be displaied, were already in attr_def.h
14:30 #navit: < alphatango> like ATTR(description)
14:32 #navit: < alphatango> and ATTR(url)
14:35 #navit: < alphatango> also ATTR(entry_fee) and ATTR(open_hours) were already in, but i changed in ATTR(fee) [more generic fee for an amenity, not only entrance] and in ATTR(opening_hours) more close to the osm tag
14:40 #navit: < alphatango> NOTE: adding ATTR(operator) in attr_def.h, give me the word operator in red color, using gedit. as a newbie, i dont know if is a bug/problem and how to avoid this, so i used ATTR(operated_by) to solve
14:42 #navit: < alphatango> by the way, i compiled and it worked.
14:46 #navit: < alphatango> the only problem is about fuel:lpg=yes/no or fee=yes/no....it appears fee=1 when yes and fee=0 when no...any solutions?
14:46 #navit: < alphatango> i'll read irclogs
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19:01 #navit: < MatthiasM1> hi everybody :)
19:01 #navit: < MatthiasM1> is this the right way to post questions for NAVIT roadmap etc?
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19:04 #navit: < xenos1984> hi MatthiasM1
19:04 #navit: < xenos1984> yes, here is the right place
19:04 #navit: < MatthiasM1> great
19:05 #navit: < MatthiasM1> my question is simple and complex in the same way ;)
19:05 #navit: < MatthiasM1> so basically: Is there a plan to start a NAVIT2 with the focus of max. compability to OpenStreetMap?
19:06 #navit: < xenos1984> hm... i don't know any such plan, but i'm not a core developer and don't know about newest rumours
19:07 #navit: < MatthiasM1> Well as you might expect, I'm over from OSM (there known as !i!)
19:07 #navit: < xenos1984> ah, well, then we know each other
19:07 #navit: < xenos1984> << MHohmann
19:07 #navit: < MatthiasM1> hehe :)
19:08 #navit: < MatthiasM1> hallo :)
19:08 #navit: < xenos1984> hallo, or moin ;)
19:08 #navit: < MatthiasM1> and esp. the EU community knows, that we can only boost OSM, if it gets to the consumers (bad word for passive people)
19:09 #navit: < xenos1984> yes, that's certainly true
19:09 #navit: < MatthiasM1> so the question is, if NAVIT could be refactored/rewritten with the ability of OSM as major data provider in background?
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19:10 #navit: < xenos1984> actually i once hat the idea to more or less rewrite navit from scratch, using C++ instead, an object oriented design, and focusing on OSM as data source
19:10 #navit: < MatthiasM1> I know Navit has a long way gone and so there are some design decisions, that didn't respect the abilitys of OSM (level of detail, data format, ...)
19:10 #navit: < xenos1984> had
19:10 #navit: < xenos1984> but this idea never left the "i have an idea" stage because of time limitations
19:10 #navit: < MatthiasM1> yes, but if you keep an eye on time, this can't be done by sparetime...
19:11 #navit: < xenos1984> exactly...
19:11 #navit: < MatthiasM1> ...so my question 2b is if we can crowdfund a team to start the dance?
19:12 #navit: < xenos1984> hm... interesting idea... it would be nice if we could
19:12 #navit: < xenos1984> but i have 0 experience with things like these
19:12 #navit: < MatthiasM1> but I have no clue about NAVIT internals (code and team aspects) to find the right way to communicate to this community
19:12 #navit: < MatthiasM1> So how can we find a good way to communicate?
19:13 #navit: < MatthiasM1> and where is the core team?
19:13 #navit: < xenos1984> well, i have a rough overview over the code, some of its details and its organization, and i know some developers - this is what i could offer, some insight into the code and some contacts
19:13 #navit: < xenos1984> !seen cp15
19:14 #navit: < MatthiasM1> sounds good
19:14 #navit: < xenos1984> hm... ok, does not seem to work that way...
19:15 #navit: < xenos1984> so, my most active contact would be Martin Schaller (cp15)
19:15 #navit: < MatthiasM1> I guess the money isn't the biggest problem.... more social and organisational acceptance
19:15 #navit: < MatthiasM1> @all somebody else with opinions?
19:16 #navit: < MatthiasM1> What about setting up an Wiki page in the NAVIT wiki?
19:16 #navit: < xenos1984> yes, i agree, one somehow needs to get the thing started
19:16 #navit: < MatthiasM1> +1
19:16 #navit: < MatthiasM1> would you stay focused on finding contacts inside the NAVIT team?
19:17 #navit: < xenos1984> sure, i can see whom i can find
19:17 #navit: < MatthiasM1> nice :)
19:17 #navit: < xenos1984> and i'm usually active in this channel, too
19:17 #navit: * MatthiasM1 is usually not on IRC/IM as it's time consuming ... :/
19:19 #navit: < xenos1984> that's true... so mostly i'm here only during evenings ;)
19:20 #navit: < MatthiasM1> I respect NAVIT community with the biggest experience in routing and writing cross platform navigation :)
19:21 #navit: < xenos1984> indeed, the portability is amazing :) this is one aspect i would focus on when it comes to writing something new / rewriting from scratch
19:22 #navit: < MatthiasM1> but I'm not an experienced coder, maybe I can help with other aspects as OSM, Wiki, community, ...
19:22 #navit: < xenos1984> << knows C, C++, Java ;) and very little Python... (i can write hello world in Python)
19:23 #navit: < MatthiasM1> ^--- print "helo" :D
19:23 #navit: < xenos1984> some wiki page and some contact to the community would be great
19:24 #navit: < MatthiasM1> can you grant me an overview about the NAVIT team/community?
19:24 #navit: < xenos1984> let me think for a moment... and look through the channel ;)
19:25 #navit: < MatthiasM1> if there is (uptodate) doc, this would be fine, too
19:25 #navit: < xenos1984> hm... i think the most up to date doc is the navit wiki...
19:26 #navit: < MatthiasM1> really? Unexpected for an mapper ;)
19:26 #navit: < xenos1984> well, that basically means that there is no other doc ;)
19:27 #navit: < xenos1984> so here in the channel Horwitz and KaZeR should belong to the original developers, together with cp15... the other rather active people i had contact with are Number6, woglinde and tryagain (the latter two not being here)
19:28 #navit: < drlizau> MatthiasM1 you are free to code a fork of Navit and release it
19:28 #navit: < MatthiasM1> no, that's basically not the idea (and def. beyond my skills)
19:28 #navit: < drlizau> I don't respect people who just arrive and demand a change without any background of working for the community.
19:28 #navit: < MatthiasM1> +1
19:28 #navit: < drlizau> Navit still supports several types of maps.
19:29 #navit: < MatthiasM1> which I respect, maybe I should explain my intention a bit more:
19:29 #navit: < MatthiasM1> NAVIT is coming from a time, where no open geodata were available, right?
19:30 #navit: < xenos1984> drlizau: i know MatthiasM1 and i'm pretty sure this was not his intention
19:31 #navit: < MatthiasM1> thanks @xenos1984 but @drlizau s daubt are ok :)
19:32 #navit: < MatthiasM1> I will try to form my idea in a wiki page (if I get the registration mail ...)
19:33 #navit: < drlizau> the wiki has been heavily spammed and may still be locked down
19:33 #navit: < MatthiasM1> yes, I requested an account as descriped at the mainpage
19:35 #navit: < MatthiasM1> So basically it's about allowing NAVIT to refresh it's codebase and make it easy to use for endusers, with a bigger focus on the abilities that OSM material can offer. Not about telling devs how to get there... but maybe we can crowdfund a sprint, as OSM community lust for an great free and open navigation solution :)
19:36 #navit: < drlizau> a request from you for someone else to do something, while you sit back and reap the benefits?
19:36 #navit: < drlizau> The most difficult part is that OSM is a moving target
19:36 #navit: < MatthiasM1> no, no benefits. Just an offer to set an impulse, assist towards OSM communty if wanted
19:37 #navit: < drlizau> what is mapped is not defined in any firm manner
19:37 #navit: < MatthiasM1> yes OSM is....dificult ;)
19:37 #navit: < drlizau> this is part of the original philosophy of OSM.
19:37 #navit: < drlizau> Now think about the difficulties of robust design against a moving target.
19:38 #navit: < MatthiasM1> but as research and successtorys tell it can be handled, if you focus on scenarios (routing, geocoding, rendering, ...) and accept an additional normalising step
19:39 #navit: < MatthiasM1> nodody says that it will be easy, or can be done within 2 weeks ;)
19:40 #navit: < xenos1984> well, there are no real standards in OSM, but conventions - and navit's maptool already uses these conventions to convert OSM data to navit.bin
19:40 #navit: < drlizau> or that it is worth spending time on, as the next year there will be features redefinedand last years code will have to be pulled apart again.
19:41 #navit: < xenos1984> tags like highway=primary are certainly rather stable
19:41 #navit: < MatthiasM1> IMHO that is only a minor problem of current OSMNAVIT teamplay (from an consumer POV). Mostly it's usability :( Of course this is caused by a very long history and drifting requirements towards NAVIT
19:41 #navit: < drlizau> xenos1984 those conventions represent the deepest layer of normalisation in the OSM database
19:41 #navit: < drlizau> they are stable and most likely will remain stable
19:42 #navit: < MatthiasM1> so you think about turning restrictions, lane based routing, ... etc?
19:42 #navit: < drlizau> now consider what happens when the micromappers change their scenarios again and they map endless other parts of their world
19:42 #navit: < MatthiasM1> sorry? I don't get your point?
19:43 #navit: < drlizau> possibly because you don't have a background of many years in both projects.
19:43 #navit: < drlizau> i have to head off to work
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19:43 #navit: < xenos1984> drlizau: yes, this deepest layer is what i would focus on for now. if newer features get stable in OSM, one might consider making use of them, too.
19:43 #navit: < MatthiasM1> cya
19:44 #navit: < MatthiasM1> but if he tells that tag variety is the problem, what would be his idea to solve it? And why not improving NAVIT internals eigther?
19:45 #navit: < xenos1984> i think already now converting OSM to navit.bin must respect this tag variety
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19:46 #navit: < MatthiasM1> yes, this is implicit due to OSMs concept of establishing semi-standards
19:46 #navit: < xenos1984> of course navit IS using OSM data already now (among possibly others)
19:47 #navit: < MatthiasM1> yes, but it's not that tuned for (see search, rendering, generalisation, ...)
19:48 #navit: < MatthiasM1> Which is not a problem, as NAVIT started with other goals in other times past...
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19:49 #navit: < xenos1984> yes, that's true... OSM + MapCSS would be a nice combination for rendering...
19:49 #navit: < xenos1984> and search for place names could certainly be improved
19:50 #navit: < MatthiasM1> generalisation for buildings is hell :/
19:52 #navit: < xenos1984> what exactly do you mean by that?
19:52 #navit: < MatthiasM1> the ability to reduce level of detail when you zoom out. So not toggle single layers, but to simplify object geometries.
19:53 #navit: < MatthiasM1> but there is so much that NAVIT can offer for experience (routing on embedded hardware, tweaked file format, crossplatform, ...) that I think it can get an ultimate solution :)
19:53 #navit: < xenos1984> ah, i see... yes, i can imagine that this is rather difficult :/
19:53 #navit: < MatthiasM1> yes, esp. on limited hardware :(
19:55 #navit: < xenos1984> indeed... i'm just thinking of things like the TomTom GO 910 (400 MHz ARM CPU, 64 MB RAM) where i first ported navit - and it was running fine
19:56 #navit: < MatthiasM1> you can do all on this hardware, if you pay the price for global precalculations and space :P
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19:57 #navit: < xenos1984> of course, there is always this cpu time vs. memory issue ;)
19:57 #navit: < MatthiasM1> AFAIK OSRM uses somekind of tricks that blow the size but make it uncredible fast :D
19:57 #navit: < MatthiasM1> "contractional blabla"
19:58 #navit: < xenos1984> well, if you have enough space... and a storage strategy that allows you to find what you are looking for...
19:59 #navit: < MatthiasM1> yeah, AFAIK they use some assumptions and precalculated ways
20:01 #navit: < xenos1984> i guess these precalculations also need a lot of time ;) well, only once of course, but for the whole world (or whatever region one wants to cover) and not only for the routes that are actually being requested...
20:02 #navit: < MatthiasM1> basically yes, but maybe you can drive an diff/update strategy instead of processing the full dump again and again
20:03 #navit: < xenos1984> hm... that would make sense
20:04 #navit: < MatthiasM1> but hard to realise as superdifficult to get all things in sync
20:06 #navit: < MatthiasM1> hmm might be that your wiki accounts have manual administration :(
20:06 #navit: < MatthiasM1> BTW How is the dev team organised?
20:13 #navit: < MatthiasM1> is there a central maintainer? Who is managing the platform specific builds and packaging?
20:21 #navit: < xenos1984> hm... i think there are experts for some specific platforms
20:21 #navit: < xenos1984> for example, my specialty is TomTom linux ;)
20:22 #navit: < MatthiasM1> long time ago I dreamed to port NAVIT to OpenPandora ... :/
20:22 #navit: < xenos1984> and the main developers / head of the developer team should be Horwitz, KaZeR, cp15
20:22 #navit: < xenos1984> they are also the project managers on sourceforge
20:22 #navit: < MatthiasM1> all or just a subset?
20:23 #navit: < xenos1984> hm... what do you mean?
20:24 #navit: < MatthiasM1> Does the core team only consist of this 3 named devs?
20:25 #navit: < xenos1984> i think there are more active developers in the core team, but they are the head of the team (kind of)
20:25 #navit: < MatthiasM1> I understand
20:28 #navit: < xenos1984> and there a certainly more contributors who made rather small contributions (including myself)
20:28 #navit: < MatthiasM1> so you maintain the TomTomLinux port?
20:30 #navit: < xenos1984> well, more or less, maintain is probably too much said... let's call it "look at it and update it from time to time, and sometimes answer questions"
20:30 #navit: < MatthiasM1> So you checkout the trunk source and apply platform patches?
20:32 #navit: < xenos1984> actually it compiles out of the box :)
20:32 #navit: < MatthiasM1> wow
20:32 #navit: < xenos1984> i mostly maintain dependencies (libraries, speech output...)
20:33 #navit: < MatthiasM1> yeah speech output out of the box would be pretty cool :)
20:33 #navit: < MatthiasM1> never got NAVIT to work my Ubuntu with all features :(
20:33 #navit: < xenos1984> and run the build chain once in a while (which i could just do now, btw)
20:33 #navit: < MatthiasM1> so no build server?
20:33 #navit: < xenos1984> which features are you missing? i'm using it on ubuntu as well
20:33 #navit: < MatthiasM1> you use unit tests?
20:34 #navit: < xenos1984> there is a build server, but i think TomTom Linux is not in the automation yet ;)
20:34 #navit: < xenos1984> no unit tests yet
20:34 #navit: < MatthiasM1> uhm had problem with bluetooth GPS and speech synthesis
20:35 #navit: < MatthiasM1> and to be hornest it wasn't easy to use on keyboad/touchpad devices :/
20:35 #navit: < xenos1984> hm... for speech output i use espeak via command line
20:35 #navit: < xenos1984> also on ubuntu
20:36 #navit: < MatthiasM1> i tried similar approach: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Navit/Ubuntu
20:36 #navit: < xenos1984> and bluetooth gps... does yours run with gpsd? (and other gpsd applications other that navit?)
20:36 #navit: < MatthiasM1> was months ago, not sure about that. Would say yes
20:37 #navit: < xenos1984> hm... if it works with gpsd, navit should be able to use it as well...
20:37 #navit: < MatthiasM1> But all this hackish stuff is far away from the user experience of android users :(
20:37 #navit: < xenos1984> i agree
20:37 #navit: < MatthiasM1> maybe I should give it a try again at Xmas ;)
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20:37 #navit: < xenos1984> actually i never used a navit deb package, i compiled it myself
20:38 #navit: * MatthiasM1 running with laptop through the snow ...
20:38 #navit: < xenos1984> but getting all the libraries straight takes a bit...
20:39 #navit: < xenos1984> if you want some more snow, i can offer you 20cm ;)
20:40 #navit: < MatthiasM1> yes and I'm not very got in depencie stuff (most compile approaches getting me crazy ;))
20:40 #navit: < MatthiasM1> here at Rostock it became colder but no snow (guess the baltic sea...)
20:41 #navit: < xenos1984> here is was -4°C during the day (Tartu, Estonia)
20:41 #navit: < xenos1984> and the forecast was -22°C in a few days, but i think they corrected the numbers
20:42 #navit: < MatthiasM1> oh, I expect you sitting somewhere in Germany, too
20:42 #navit: * MatthiasM1 turns the globe and looks up E S T O N I A
20:43 #navit: < xenos1984> i was living in hamburg for the last 11 years, and before that i was growing up near wolfsburg ;) but i moved to estonia 3 months ago
20:43 #navit: < MatthiasM1> ooookkkk oO
20:45 #navit: < xenos1984> this is already the second snow here for me... at the end of october we had 25cm
20:45 #navit: < xenos1984> and we had like -11°C
20:45 #navit: < MatthiasM1> brrrr
20:45 #navit: < MatthiasM1> think 2 years ago we had -20 here in M-V
20:46 #navit: < xenos1984> according to the people here a few weeks per winter of -30°C are normal ;)
20:46 #navit: < MatthiasM1> Jesus OO
20:47 #navit: < xenos1984> i guess i don't want to go outside when this happens...
20:48 #navit: < MatthiasM1> or VERY MUCH clothes ;)
20:49 #navit: < MatthiasM1> ok back2topic: As I don't get an confirmation mail yet, I think I will start an first draft over at the OSM wiki
20:49 #navit: < xenos1984> yes, that's a good idea
20:50 #navit: < xenos1984> i think the wiki registration needs to be approved by an admin
20:50 #navit: < MatthiasM1> yes, seems to be that way...
20:50 #navit: < MatthiasM1> ok but now it's time for me :D
20:50 #navit: < xenos1984> (and since cp15 is not here, and he is the one who manages the server, this might take a bit)
20:51 #navit: < MatthiasM1> will return tomorrow or later and see ;)
20:51 #navit: < MatthiasM1> cya
20:51 #navit: < xenos1984> i'll be happy to participate and keep the contacts
20:51 #navit: < xenos1984> cu ;)
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21:10 #navit: < xenos1984_> hi woglinde
21:10 #navit: < woglinde> hi xenos
21:10 -!- xenos1984 [~quassel@131.237.196.88.dyn.estpak.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
21:11 #navit: < xenos1984_> i guess today's activity in this channel reached a new peak, according to the channel logs...
21:11 #navit: < xenos1984_> it seems rather quiet here over the last months
21:11 -!- xenos1984_ is now known as xenos1984
21:12 #navit: < woglinde> hm looks like I missed it
21:14 #navit: < xenos1984> to summarize: someone i know from the openstreetmap forum asked whether there is a chance of a navit remake, focused on using more features from OSM data
21:14 #navit: < xenos1984> and more oriented towards end users
21:15 #navit: < xenos1984> and he was asking for opinions on that
21:15 #navit: < tryagain> I think these are main goals for navit development now... At least for me :)
21:18 #navit: < xenos1984> i agree ;) i haven't been very active recently, but hearing about some interest in the project is a good motivation for me
21:19 #navit: < tryagain> a bit on OSM stability. We had some discussion in #876 and #456 tickets of highway=primary properties being highly variable throughout the countries.
21:19 #navit: < tryagain> agreed
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21:21 #navit: < xenos1984_> yes, that's true - in some countries a primary is a multi-lane asphalt road, in others a "major sand track"...
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21:22 #navit: < tryagain> have to go now.... see you...
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21:23 #navit: < xenos1984_> i guess to cope with this issue the OSM data needs to contain information on road surfaces, widths etc. as well, which is probably a lot of work to parse...
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--- Log closed Fri Nov 30 00:00:21 2012