The Pre-Tribulation Rapture Lie – Part 2 – False Evidence

Many responses to my article on the Pre-Tribulation Rapture Lie, were very troubling. It showed a desperate desire to hold onto this lie, even to the point of twisting the Bible, itself. And, I am shocked at the lack of evidence that pre-trib supporters have.

It has taken a week, but I have finally come to realize that the only way that you can support the Pre-Tribulation Rapture Lie, is to believe that it MUST exist. Only then can you bend the Bible to support your argument.

This is exactly how supporters of evolution have been able to explain their theory as fact. According to them, because God cannot be real, evolution must be true.

The Pre-Tribulation Rapture Lie – Part 2 – False Evidence

Doing good research is like building a house. You position properly. You lay a solid foundation, and then – and only then – set up the walls and roof. Without a solid foundation, your research is worse than meaningless. It’s toxic.

That’s why it upsets me so much to see such bad evidence put forward for the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. There’s no foundational scripture for them to work from. There’s nothing that directly says that the church will be raptured before the coming of the Tribulation of the Antichrist.

As I try to understand this Pretrib Lie, it appears to me that their foundation is:

God would never allow us to suffer.

And, I am incredibly surprised at this idea.

With all the horrible suffering that Christians have gone through, down the ages, why would you believe such a foolish idea?

I am amazed by this. Really.

I Actually WANT To Be Pretrib

Please understand that I say this as someone who would love to believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. Each and every article that I write on this site is a struggle. This website is a painful effort, that I would rather give up.

Furthermore, I don’t have a doctrinal background that encourages loyalty to a post-tribulation rapture idea. My favorite pastors all believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. My home church teaches a pre-tribulation rapture. My church here in Taiwan is the same.

I literally have no reason to attack the Pre-Tribulation Rapture Lie, and every reason to support it – except that I love God and His words, more than anything on this Earth. And, it hurts to see a corrupt interpretation of the Bible.

And yes, the Pre-Tribulation Rapture Lie is a corrupt interpretation of the Bible.

That statement will have upset some of you, so let me explain why.

The Pillars Of The Pre-Tribulation Rapture Theory

As best as I can understand them, these are the quasi-Biblical ideas that are foundational to the Pre-Tribulation Rapture Lie:

Imminent Return Of Jesus

God Has Not Appointed Us Unto Wrath

The Church Is The Restrainer

Who Populates The Millennium?

Since the controversy is one of TIMING, I have left out those foundational elements that we ALL agree with, such as the fact that there WILL be a Rapture.

As far as I have been able to determine, all the other evidence that has been presented to support a pre-tribulation rapture… the feasts, ect. …well, that evidence stands upon those four points.

An Honest Appraisal

And yes, I am attempting to give an honest appraisal. This is not an attempt to create a ‘straw man‘ that I can then knock down with ease. These really are the foundational principles that I have seen used to support the Pre-Tribulation Rapture Lie.

Furthermore, there are elements to these foundational principles that I agree with. The fact that they are misused doesn’t change their truthfulness.

So, let’s take a look at whether these pillars for the Pre-Tribulation Rapture Lie can stand up to a scriptural analysis.

Imminent Return Of Jesus

The first support, or pillar, of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, is the doctrine of an imminent return of Jesus. The verses that are used to support imminence are these:

But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. – Matthew 24:36

Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. – Matthew 24:42-46

Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. – Matthew 25:13

And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. – Acts 1:7

So, here’s the question:

Do these verses offer sound support for a Pre-Tribulation Rapture?

The answer is no.

Just because we cannot know the day or hour of the return of Jesus, does not mean that Jesus MUST come before the rapture. There are any number of reasons why we will not be able to predict the return of Jesus.

Furthermore, Jesus was speaking to the disciples, as well as to those Christians who would follow. They – and even we – would not know the day or hour when the Tribulation begins. And, by extrapolation, would not know the day or hour when Jesus returns.

In fact, the conditions surrounding the beginning of the Tribulation may make it difficult to establish when it begins and when it ends – for those in various parts of the world who are cut off from communication.

As I said, there are many different reasons that we can think of that could explain why we would not know the day or hour of the return of Jesus. To claim this as foundational proof of a pre-tribulation rapture is not warranted.

God Has Not Appointed Us Unto Wrath

The next pillar of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is one that I hear the most often. Supporters of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture Lie always tell me:

God has not appointed us unto wrath.

That statement comes from this verse in 1 Thessalonians:

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, – 1 Thessalonians 5:9

That verse is exceptionally clear, and I agree with it 100%. But…

Does it require a Pre-Tribulation Rapture?

No, it does not.

Remember, that the sentence starts out with the word ‘For’. It is synonymous with the word ‘because’ – which is how the original Greek word, hoti is used. It essentially means that obedience to the previous statements will make the following statement accurate.

To put it another way, following the preceding verses will mean that we will not suffer the wrath of God.

Here is the entire section that is relevant to this verse:

But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Nowhere does this indicate a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. In fact, the context is to WATCH for the coming of the Last Days. Paul was telling them to be on the Lookout.

Why would Paul speak of being ‘watchful’ when The Rapture would take all Christians away before anything bad would happen?

What The Tribulation Really Is

Furthermore, the way that pretribbers use 1 Thessalonians 5:9 shows a distinct misunderstanding of what the Tribulation is.

What IS the Tribulation?

Well, Revelation 12 gives us a clue:

And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. – Revelation 12:14

…and:

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. – Revelation 12:17

It is the war between Satan and the followers of Jesus Christ.

Basically, the description that Jesus gives of the Tribulation in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 is:

war, violence, affliction and deception

The Wrath Of God

That is not the Wrath of God. Here is the beginning of the Wrath of God:

And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image. – Revelation 16:1-2

THAT is the Wrath of God.

Do we go through that?

Well, the Last Trump blows before this. So, it appears to me that we don’t go through that. And, if we WERE around for this, God would make sure that we didn’t suffer it, in the same way that God protected Israel in the Land of Goshen.

The Church Is The Restrainer

The next pillar of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is this:

The Church is what keeps the Antichrist from coming.

That principle comes from this verse:

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. – 2 Thessalonians 2:7

Paul then goes on to describe the revealing of the Antichrist. So, I completely agree that there is something that keeps the Antichrist from being revealed. And, since Paul refers to this ‘something’ as a ‘he’, I also believe that this is the Holy Spirit. So far, we’re all in agreement.

Not Taken Out Of The World

However, all this verse is saying is that the Holy Spirit no longer blocks the coming of the Antichrist. There is a distinct difference between being taken out of the way and being taken out of the world. This verse does NOT say that the Holy Spirit must been taken out of the world for the Antichrist to come. It only says that the Holy Spirit must no longer stand in the way – or the path – of the coming of the Antichrist.

So, using this verse, to prove a pre-tribulation rapture, is wrong. It does NOT prove that there is a pre-tribulation rapture. Let me analyze their thinking about this.

The pretribbers claim that the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way because the church has been raptured.

But, is that true?

The pretribbers assume that the presence of the church is a sufficient barrier to the coming of the Antichrist, but I believe that this is NOT true. Not true at all.

We Have Driven Out The Holy Spirit

When you look at our churches in America, you don’t find very much evidence of the Holy Spirit. There may be churches in various corners of America that still have evidence of the Holy Spirit, but I haven’t seen them for myself.

Our churches have become full of people that are indistinguishable from those who are not Christian. In fact, the average non-Christian here in Taiwan is more honest than the average Christian in America. The divorce rate among Christians is only slightly lower than for non-Christians. The abortion rate is also only slightly lower, and half of all pastors are regular consumers of pornography.

I believe that the Holy Spirit has been taken out of the way, because we have DRIVEN Him out. We have rejected the Holy Spirit, so He has rejected us.

To claim that The Church must be raptured, because the presence of Christians will always block the coming of the Antichrist is a false assumption. You are assuming that the Holy Spirit needs to actually leave the world for the Antichrist to come. But, that’s not true.

So far, I have knocked out all three pillars that act as the foundation for the Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

Who Populates The Millennium?

However, I ran across someone who raised an objection to a Post-Tribulation Rapture, and he claimed that this was the only reason why he was a pretribber. And, he posed his objection as a question:

Who populates the Millennium?

What an excellent question.

There ARE people in the Millennium, and they WILL repopulate the Earth. And, eventually, those of them who are not God’s people will rise up and rebel against God at Armageddon.

So, who do they come from?

Good question.

I don’t think that it’s a good enough question for someone to support a pre-tribulation rapture. But, I like tough questions, so I will do my best to offer some possible answers.

Do you remember the woman who flees into the wilderness and escapes the serpent?

I referred to it here:

And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. – Revelation 12:14

Why Some Do Not Take The Mark

I find Revelation 12 to be interesting because it indicates that the Antichrist is limited. He doesn’t have total and absolute control. There are areas of the world that he is unable to dominate completely.

Does this mean that there are non-Christians who are somehow unable to take the Mark of the Beast?

It could be.

We recently had a tribe from the Amazon jungle come into contact with civilization for the first time. Those like them, that are still in Amazon, will not take the Mark of the Beast. But, there’s something more than that.

Have you noticed that you cannot be forced to take the Mark of the Beast, and that it MUST be either on your Right Hand or on your Forehead?

I find that to be interesting. There is something about this mark that renders it inoperable on the left hand. And, the Antichrist would rather chop your head off, than force you to take his mark.

So, there must be a conscious, willing compliance. You must want this mark, and take it of your own free will.

But, what about children?

They don’t really have the ability to do this of their own free will. Or, at least, there are limitations.

Could a baby exert enough free will to take this mark?

That doesn’t appear to be the case, but I cannot be dogmatic about this. But, it does allow us to foresee reasons why there would be people and/or children who survive to repopulate the Earth, once the Millennium arrives.

So, that should answer your question. There ARE possible reasons for why there are survivors who repopulate the Earth in the Millennium.

Everything Else

Since all of the other passages offered by pretribbers must stand upon the above evidence, those passages cannot stand as evidence.

There really isn’t any other way of looking at this. Unless someone can come up with yet ANOTHER foundational passage for a pre-tribulation rapture…

Hi. Hey this has some more arguments along with the ones you addressed. If you have time could you comment. I really agreed with most of your reasoning and I really want to understand this. Our pastor has always said prepare for going through the rapture but pray that we are taken out first.

He doesn’t understand that the Tribulation is about the persecution of Christians by the Antichrist. This has been the lot of Christians for eons, so ‘the blessed hope’ has nothing to do with it. The Wrath of God comes AFTER the Tribulation.

Therefore, his example of Lot, Enoch and Daniel just don’t apply.

Again, God did NOT say that we would be protected from persecution. In fact, He PROMISED that we would have persecution. And THAT is just one more reason why we WILL go through the Tribulation of the Antichrist – which is the proper title.

Pray to escape? You can’t pray to be included in the Rapture, so I don’t understand his adding this. He seriously has this passage wrong.

I’m sorry, Laurie, but as I look through the rest of the points… He really has no proof of a pre-tribulation rapture.

John, thank you for the 2 pre-trib rapture is a lie, articles. This point is separating serious holy spirit filled, ( albeit somewhat scripture illiterate ) christians. I truly hope believers will search the scriptures rather than offhandedly condemning the idea of our being gathered to him when HE appears….

It can be quite frustrating in matters such as this to have the weight of scripture with us and yet others who say they believe in the Lord hold to a teaching such as the pre tribulation rapture. You have mentioned a number of events that must occur before the Lord returns and the rapture occurs. One other not included is this one: See KJV at Mal 4:5 He will send Elijah BEFORE the day of the Lord. If there are events that must occur first then clearly the Lord’s coming cannot be nor ever has been imminent! The rapture occurs at the coming of the Lord. Christians have been watching and waiting for him from the start. When is His coming? Right at the opening of the sixth seal. That is when the nations see the sign of the son of man in heaven and try to hide themselves from His wrath. That is when the ‘rapture’ will occur. This will be after the revealing of anti christ at the middle of the final period when he declares himself to be God. That is when the great tribulation begins, but it will be cut short. It is cut short I believe at the opening of the 6th seal: the coming of the Lord. There will be a lot of suffering and trouble leading up to this event. This is the wrath of Satan. When the Lord comes and afterward the world gets to enjoy the wrath of God. I spent a number of years being deceived in a cult. I now hold to the view that the truth will only do and the truth can stand up to any scrutiny. If what I believe is not the truth, would I want to know? Absolutely yes! Not everyone shares that view and it is going to lead them to a very rude awakening. The Lord warned his disciples of what is coming so they would not be ‘offended’ or stumbled from him. That is a sobering thought.

Mr. Little, I agree with you. The urgency in your message can be felt. One note you made stands out to me the most, and that is the idea that God would not allow me to suffer. Like you, I am amazed at this thought. Most of the American church disagrees with me and most people here in the states cannot understand my thoughts on this. I feel that I am an old dying breed of soul that is being replaced by a generation of people that have no honor. The entire Bible from cover to cover is full of people that have “suffered”. I put that word in quotations for a reason. Is dying for the Word Of The Lord actually suffering? Is dying for what you believe in suffering? I say it would be an honor to be considered in such ranks as Paul, Steven and all the other martyrs. When the tribulation comes and if I am still here on our temporary home I would only hope that I can die with such an honor as to die for my Lord and Savior. Psalm 23, we all know it and it to has been twisted by the modern day American Church. Preachers have used it for prosperity messages and led people astray with it. David was a shepherd and understood the Lord as a Shepherd (therefore he was a man after Gods on heart). Even King David understood that he would walk through the valley of the shadow of death. But, he also knew that the Lord was walking with him to reach the pasture on the other side. God will be with his true flock during this tribulation period, he will walk right beside his church to be a comfort for the believer. One of our responsibilities as a flock is to follow our shepherd and not be sheep for anybody else.

As you know, I have fully answered your April 28 article on my website.

I have fully answered your article, The Pre-Tribulation Rapture Lie. I used your very title, so my article should not be hard to find.

In this, your latest and very interesting installment, you have not addressed any of my positive proofs of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture as taught directly by the Bible.

I believe you are most sincere in your effort to teach the truth of the Bible. So am I!

Just because a careful reader and student of the Bible believes in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture does not mean that they deny that Christians will suffer tremendous tribulation and difficulty before that event (Acts 14:22). Some of us believe in being prepared both physically and spiritually. The Bible most clearly encourages us to be fully prepared by what it says at Proverbs 22:3.

I believe you may be mistaken about 1 Thessalonians 5:9. God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation or deliverance by our Lord Jesus Christ.

Just which “wrath” is Paul writing about in this context? Clearly, the wrath of the Day of the Lord (in context, that is what he is talking about at 1 Thessalonians 5:2, “For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.”

If you follow carefully the person and number of the personal pronouns in 1 Thessalonians chapter 5 you will get its message correctly; otherwise you will get it wrong, which is what I believe you have inadvertently done here. We who are saved (1 Thessalonians 5:4) are not in darkness that that day should overtake us as a thief, for example.

I’m sorry Jerome, but you are truly deceived. The Tribulation is about the persecution of the Saints by the Antichrist. God’s Wrath comes after. I worry that such a great deception as yours will lead you to take the Mark of the Beast. – JL

Who repopulates the earth after the tribulation? I’ve studied this and I believe I have the answer.

Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. Luk 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Luk 17:32 Remember Lot’s wife.

Both Noah and Lot escaped the wrath of God because they were righteous BUT some other people also escaped God’s wrath. Noah’s son Ham escaped, from the actions of him and his progeny, he probably were not righteous. Lot’s daughters escaped, their actions later illustrate that they were not righteous. All of Israel escaped the wrath of God in the land of Goshen, but obviously as illustrated by some some of their wicked actions later in the wilderness, many of them were not righteous.

There will be many people, because of their close relationship with righteous saints, who will escape the wrath of God BUT they will not be raptured with the saints at the end of the tribulation! They will NOT enter the promised land. God knows your heart.

“Jesus has now many lovers of His heavenly kingdom, but few bearers of His cross. He has many who who desire His comfort, but few His tribulation; many who are willing to share His table, few His fasting. All are willing to rejoice with Him, few will endure anything for Him. Many follow Jesus into the breaking of bread, but few to drink of the cup from which He drank. Many glory in His miracles few in the shame of His cross”. (Thomas a Kempis)

John, I believe one’s desire to escape suffering is a heart issue, motivated by fear and unbelief in His sufficiency. The question we believers need to ask ourselves, is Jesus worthy? Is He truly the Pearl of Great Price, or am I only interested in my own self-preservation and comfort?

May we all examine our own hearts in these critical days. God bless you for your work.

Dear John Little: Thank you for going over this subject again. I too take exception to some of the pretrib arguments. However, the woman of Revelation chapter 12 is not the church. This despite the fact that Bible scholars say anytime a woman is used as a symbol, it symbolizes or represents a church. Therefore, according to Revelation Chapter 12 this woman (Church) gives birth/ gives rise to Jesus Christ, the child that rules with an iron rod. This reasoning is wrong. It was Jesus Christ that gave rise to the true church, not the other way around. Therefore Revelation Chapter 12 can not even be about Believers or Christians. The woman of Revelation chapter 12 is not even Mary as the Papacy or Roman Catholics claim. The woman of Revelation chapter 12 is representing Israel. This is confirmed by studying the dreams the young Joseph had concerning himself and his family (Jacob, Rachel and his 11 brothers). Joseph dreamed that stars bowed down before him while he was a star too. Thus a remnant of Israel will be protected in revelation chapter 12. Then too you have this fallacy about Sunday or the Sabbath. Sunday is a day of rest and worship due to adoption of pagan rituals (Sun worship) and Constantine’s decree as a day of rest. The true 10 commandments make the sabbath a day of rest and the Jewish Sabbath (Saturday) as the day of worship. Remember that the Papacy/Vatican does everything it can to NOT adopt Jewish traditions or feasts. Biblically Saturday should be the day of worship, not Sunday. For example, when Passover and Easter coincide on the same day or weekend, the papacy makes up every excuse it can so Easter is on a different weekend. The star and moon business is just Papal Babylonian mysticism mumbo jumbo. I remember that the Papacy threw out the arguments of the of the Reformers like Martin Luther because if the Protestant reformers were the true Christians than they should worship God on Saturday. The papacy said that since the reformers did not worship on Saturday, but on Sunday like the Roman Catholic Church then the Reformers arguments are null and void. The Reformers were correct also in identifying the Papacy/Vatican/Roman Catholic Church as a type of the Antichrist. We can see that today as the Papacy spreads this apostacy of ecumenism and One World Church. As for Pretrib theory maybe a look at St. Jerome and his teachings would shed light on this issue and that Pretrib theory only came about in the 1800’s. Pretrib theory was around in Jerome’s time of 300 AD. Thanks, Norbert.

I agree that the woman is Israel. However, it is an Israel that has accepted Christ, and joined His church. So, therefore it WILL be the church – although mostly Jewish.

As to the rest, Norbert, please be careful. If you require the following of the Law, you must follow all 613 laws. I believe that this is a burden that Christ did not require of us – since He freed us from it.

Yes it is frustrating, the pre-trib rapture view that many 501c3 evangelical churches teach. i used to believe this 60s hippie escapist theory. But then ran across presentation pointing out issues with it. For one, NO WHERE in Revelation does it talk of a “7 year” tribulation period. Only a 3 ½ year period is mentioned. The 7 year period is derived by many from Daniel 9 in that only 69 weeks have been fulfilled and that there is one week or 7 years remaining to be fulfilled. However, as some scholars state, didn’t the PRINCE (Jesus) in Daniel 9 already fulfill 3 ½ years of that 70th week? That would mean only 3 ½ years are left. This would seem to put a damper on all the people waiting for their ‘pre-tribulation’ rapture escapism. This is why some foreigners view American Christians living the American dream of riches and luxury as arrogant, thinking they will escape trials and tribulations that the rest of the world has already been dealing with (that really haven’t yet come to America -but soon will).

When it comes to how Bible prophecy will play out, NO ONE knows for sure exactly how things will unfold. There was a guy from Scotland that wrote a book years ago about how Bible prophecy is fulfilled (there’s around 2,000 or so prophetic scriptures in Holy Bible where God tells the future in advance). He listed every prophecy that had come to pass up until that time. He showed that prophecy can be fulfilled literally, figuratively, or symbolically. e.g., John the Baptist in the NT was asked if he was the second coming of Elijah (that had been prophesied). He said, “NO, he was not Elijah.” However, Jesus stated that, “Yes, John was the fulfillment of Elijah coming again.” That scripture was fulfilled through John and he didn’t even know it. Wouldn’t Jesus would know of what He speaks? The point is that in the end, all these views on how the details and timing will play out is SPECULATION. So often we don’t know how prophetic scripture is fulfilled until it’s happening or after the fact. That doesn’t mean we ought not to study Bible prophecy for we are commanded to know the times and the seasons before Messiah’s return. It could be that someone’s particular interpretation and view is correct, but we just don’t know. God does gift certain people to interpret and understand scripture better than others (including prophetic scripture concerning the future) so we shouldn’t think we have it all figured out. There are also different competing seminaries in America and they all push their own view of prophetic scripture so it helps to know what influence (seminary) someone might be under when they are on their high horse, dogmatically telling you they have it all figured out and if you don’t accept their view then you are a heretic. Prophecy IS NOT EASY to figure out in detail.

Is Tribulation 7 years or 3 1/2 years? 490 years or 70 weeks decreed for Israel (490 year time span: decree by Persia’s Artaxerxes to rebuild Jerusalem to Messiah’s kingdom)- see Daniel 9 (decree issued 445 B.C.) • 7 weeks or 49 years for rebuilding Jerusalem, end of Malachi’s ministry and close of OT • 62 weeks or 434 years • i.e., 69 weeks or 483 years to first advent of Messiah (this leaves 1 week or 7 years left). When the Messiah came this began what the NT calls the Last Days or the End of the Age. We’ve been in the Last Days or the End of the Age since Messiah came according to the NT.

• Messiah’s ministry used up 3 ½ years of the 70th week and then was “cut off;” Book of Revelation refers to a 3 ½ year period. Is this the remaining 3 ½ years left in the 70th week in which God deals with Israel? Nowhere in Revelation is a 7 year period for the so-called “tribulation” discussed. It does discuss a “great tribulation” or 42 months or 3 ½ years (see Rev. 7:14; Matt. 24:21).

Thus we know that the prophetic clock for dealing with Israel began in 445 B.C. and ran 69 weeks or 483 years, and the clocked stopped when Messiah was cut off after 3 ½ years of His ministry. Some say we are now waiting for the clock to start again. What will start it? Has it already started in 1967?

So rather than looking towards a coming 7 year tribulation period, are we really looking at a coming 42 month or 3 ½ year great tribulation period to resume once God’s prophetic clock for dealing with Israel restarts? Thus for the last 2,000 + years we have been in the church age until the fullness of the gentiles is complete (Romans 11:25-26. i.e., Israel’s spiritual hardening which began with rejecting Jesus as Messiah, will last until the complete number of elect Gentiles has come to salvation)

Hey John, I also do not buy into the Pre-trib story. Here is my take in 2 verses…

1 Corinthians 15 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, ***at the last trumpet***. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

Revelation 10 7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

This is when I think the rapture will be accomplished. But only God truly knows. Your brother in Christ, Ken

Some recent expositors claim that the angel, Michael, may be the force that is holding back the AC and not the Holy Spirit. Daniel 11:45 indicates that the AC will place his headquarters in Jerusalem. According to Chris White he is killed and then resurrected. Michael stands up (stops protecting Israel), which allows the resurrected AC to place the abomination of desolation in the temple and start killing anyone who does not worship the image (AC by proxy) and take the mark.

And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him. And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. (Dan 11:45-12:1 KJV)

After reading countless scare stories about the mark being an injected computer chip or a DNA change, I have considered, after reading Chris White’s commentary, that the mark may be literally what it appears to be: a tattoo or brand on the actual skin of the AC worshipper.

Great work John. I love the point by point addressing of the arguments for pre-trib. A verse that I think backs up your position is Rev 13:7- It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. This is talking about the antichrist going after believers. So if the rapture had already taken place, where do these saints come from? Of course it has not happened yet! I do however find this verse disturbing. Apparently he will be able to kill a lot of Christians.

Hi John, Could you tell me who these people are that are mentioned in Revelation 7 after the sealing of the 144,000?

Revelation 7:9-17 KJV

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

John, I should have known you would say that. Before chapter 7 these saints were not there, and then they appear after the sixth seal is opened and the 144,000 are sealed. We are told they came out of great tribulation. I believe these saints are the raptured church. I don’t understand why you don’t see this. Let me ask you something else. How are you preparing to survive the tribulation period anyway? You do realize that if you are correct, we will be killed when we refuse the mark of the beast.

So, every time I see the words ‘great tribulation’ in the Bible, that must mean the Tribulation of the Antichrist?

But wait, there IS a verse that says that, and it really is talking about THE Tribulation. It’s this one:

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. – Matthew 24:21

Unfortunately, for those who are pretribbers, Jesus ended his discussion with this:

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. – Matthew 24:29-31

(On a side note, you can’t be taken OUT of something, unless you are IN it.)

John, I agree with your view and thank you for all of your intensive work. There are many people being helped by your ministry. I am a little confused over the timing of God’s wrath. I believe you stated that we are raptured at the last trump before God’s wrath. When Christ returns at the last trump how much time is involved with the seven vials? Reading through Revelation 16 makes it seem like it will take some time. I thought that Christ would make quick work of satan and his followers at that time. Sorry if I have confused things.

Since I take a rather practical view of things, I haven’t really taken much thought about how the return of Jesus will work, vis-a-vis the Wrath. I can even see that we would be in a sheltered place that will be protected from the Wrath – as God did with the Land of Goshen.

Ultimately, it won’t matter. Once the Tribulation begins, we’re going to be stuck where we are.

Hi John, i have been so very blessed by your insightful and thought provoking articles these past 3 months especially this present topic of the Rapture. I was in ministry full time in 1999 as a laymen trying to get people (church mostly) to get prepared physically and spiritually for the times coming of which I have had many visions and dreams about. Yo my utter amazement over 80% of the churches and pastors I spoke to stated emphatically that “God would never allow his people to suffer or be persecuted! only over 25 churches out of over 100 in my area were willing for me to speak to them. My heart breaks for those who should know better and are leading the sheep astray. One thing I have not heard anyone comment on in the thessalonians passage is about the Great falling away that must take place before the AntiChrist is revealed.

Another scripture attributed to the pre-trib rapture is in Mat 24:27-40. the one taken is destroyed and several times it is referenced to death. Also it seems almost all of these examples also in Luke 17 are talking about preserving within. I saw Barach Obama come to be president in a vision in 1988.

I believe the ones taken away could be from a false rapture that will shake the church.

If you compare Luke 17 and Matthew 24, you will see that taken = destroyed in Noah’s flood. So when Jesus says, “Where the carcass is, there the vultures will gather,” He is giving us a mark of His true return. This is exactly what happens in Revelation 19:21 – wicked enemies of Christ are killed, and vultures feast on their flesh. The other mark He gives is that it will be as lateral lightning (everyone will see it). Jesus warned us strongly that there will be false returns that will deceive many (Matthew 24:23-26), but if we understand that Jesus’ return will be visible to all and that (rebellious) people will die, we won’t be deceived.

I believe that all this discussion of whether or not there will be a rapture is a huge distraction. Frankly I couldn’t care less and don’t spend a moment thinking about it. Dispensationalism, rapture, dual covenant theology, evolution vs. creationism, all of this distracts followers from going about the work of Jesus. I ask myself a couple of very simple questions when it comes to getting mired in questionable theology – “How does this help me be a strong witness for Christ?” and “Does this strengthen or weaken my faith?”

With regard to “the rapture” specifically people should ask themselves this – if they knew the date certain when Christ would return would that affect the way they live their lives? If the answer is yes then they are likely doing something wrong.

Finally, as I see it people don’t want to think for themselves. They rely on others to provide biblical interpretation. Cyrus Scofield and “his book” have done more to advance heresy than just about anyone else in the last hundred and fifty years. Read a Scofield reference bible and it has more commentary then biblical text. I have a very simple question for people who believe in a rapture – why was it not taught in the first eighteen centuries of the church? I’ve done a fair amount of reading early church leaders and not one time was it taught. It’s only since the Darby/Scofield era that rapture theology has existed.

I couldn’t agree more. Most Christians think that they will escape persecution and be carried away before the tribulation. I would suggest they read Richard Wurmbrand’s watershed book – “Tortured For Christ” which is available for free through the VOM website. They might just change their tune. Persecution and tribulation aren’t just coming, for many they are here!

Finally, I don’t normally throw quotes around but this one is apropos – “The matter is quite simple. The bible is very easy to understand. But we Christians are a bunch of scheming swindlers. We pretend to be unable to understand it because we know very well that the minute we understand, we are obliged to act accordingly. Take any words in the New Testament and forget everything except pledging yourself to act accordingly. My God, you will say, if I do that my whole life will be ruined. How would I ever get on in the world? Herein lies the real place of Christian scholarship. Christian scholarship is the Church’s prodigious invention to defend itself against the Bible, to ensure that we can continue to be good Christians without the Bible coming too close. Oh, priceless scholarship, what would we do without you? Dreadful it is to fall into the hands of the living God. Yes it is even dreadful to be alone with the New Testament.” ― Soren Kierkegaard

You wrote that Paul refers to this “something” as a “he” and that it is keeping the Antichrist from being revealed. You wrote that you believe the “he” to be the Holy Spirit. You also say you think we are all in agreement on that, but wait a minute. The Church is the Body of Christ (I Cor. 12:27). The Church is a “he.” Christ is the Head, we are the Body (Colossians 1:18), which means we are part of a groomsman. If the Holy Spirit were to leave, we would have to go, too, because Jesus said He would send us the Comforter to guide us into all truth. Why would the Comforter pull out just as we would really need Him? I believe we are saved by the grace of God, not of works. I don’t apologize for basking in His grace because that’s what my Heavenly Father wants, just as you would want the same thing for your children if you freely gave them something special. “Behold what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us that we should be called the sons of God.” I John 3:1. Thank you for a reasonable dialogue in response and not a personal attack on my character for disagreeing with you.

I think people that says that there will be a pre-trib ‘rapture’ have to look again at the Gospel message and what it is really about…. It is about the coming Kingdom of God and about Jesus that will rule in God’s kingdom…

People that support the ‘pre-trib’ possition clearly believes that they have their salvation through the scriptures that they put forward for every argument that they have..

Jesus had some words to the Jews regarding the same issue..

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

The scriptures should never be read in a way as to where you think it is about you and your salvation… especially when it is regarding the timing of His coming.

It is about Jesus and the coming Kingdom.

So they should read the scriptures again where Jesus says himself:

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on Him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Jesus only speaks of what He has heard and seen for the Father, and here are His words..

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation…. (read the rest)

Please anyone that reads these Words (the words of Jesus), do not try and turn them into anything else than what it says, it is what He has seen from the Father

Jesus says that His words are a two edge sword and for me one of the meanings of this is..

You can understand the Word of God as if it is regarding you and the other is where it is about God … and by that you will be judged

Psalm : 91… He who dwells in the shelter of the most High Will abide in the shadow of the Almighty. I will say to the LORD, “My refuge and my fortress, My God, in whom I trust.!” For it is He who delivers you from the snare of the trapper And from the deadly pestilence. He will cover you with his feathers, And under His wings you may seek refuge: His faithfulness is a shield and bulwark.

Hey John, I find that most of those like yourself that deny the pre trib rapture do so because their theology forces them to take the pre wrath or post trib position. Most that take the post trib position make a critical mistake in believing that Israel and the church are one and the same, but they are clearly not. Matthew 24 and 25 are written to the Jew and to the Jew only. They rejected their messiah Jesus Christ at His Triumphal entry but will not recognize this until the Tribulation time Matt 23:37-39, Hosea 5:14-15, Daniels 70th week. Despite this Revelation says that there will be other gentiles that will be saved during the tribulation, these will have to give their life to do so. Without writing a book on the subject I submit to you that the confusion on the Church being Israel and Israel being the church comes form the Reformed theology arena and has had a surge in popularity lately. This is the theology I was speaking of that forces people to take ,generally, the post trib view or at least the anti pre trib view. Solve the issue with the Church being Israel and you will solve the problem you have with the pre trib rapture.

I just watched your video of the amazing proof that the Tribulation is not the wrath of God. Again this all boils down to if you believe in Reformed Theology or some equivalent of it.

You said you used to be a pretribber, and I would bet money that you gave up that position when you became a reformer.

Pastor Anderson uses Matthew 24 and 25 to support his whole theory and so do you. You will always struggle as I once did trying to reconcile those two chapters in the context of the Church and you can’t.

This wrangling all has to do with the differences between how GOD deals with Israel and His Covenant promises to them and the Church.

I have dealt with many of you reformers and your twisted theology which leads you down this path.

Don’t bother posting my stuff now I know exactly from the position that you so smugly attack others from. You profess to let the Bible speak for itself and then turn around and interpret everything according to your Theology. You agreed with another poster that the Bible is all allegory, your in the danger zone my friend. You have bigger theological problems than the Rapture to deal with.

You wont see my posts again because I didn’t come to your site to fight with your theology. See you in Heaven , my friend

I also hope to see you in Heaven. However, I would prefer to see you survive what is coming, so that we could continue this conversation.

Unfortunately, you are completely incorrect about who and what I am.

I never said that I was a pretribber. I have never been such, because it never made sense to me, and it still doesn’t. Yet, at the same time, I have always understood that the promises towards Israel for the Last Days will come true.

Matt, I have proven to you that what you believe is a lie. I have proven from scripture that:

Jesus said that the rapture will come AFTER the Tribulation.

Paul said that the rapture will come AFTER the Antichrist.

Paul said that the rapture will come AFTER the Resurrection.

Do you dare to disagree with Jesus and Paul?

I’m sorry, Matt. But, what you believe is a Satanic lie that was designed to keep you from being ready for what Satan has prepared for you. Worse, if you teach this lie to others, you will suffer great condemnation from God.

While I do think that you are sincere in your beliefs and that your desire to help people is at the forefront of your writings I must take issue with your arguments concerning the rapture. I would like you to directly address the few things I am going to say because i like you want to make sure that i am on the right side of truth.

First as I read the 2nd part of your article you address the issue of the wrath of God. You state that the wrath of God does not start until Revelation 16:1-2. I take issue with those that say that what happens before that is the wrath of Satan, is that what you believe? I find that the whole Tribulation period beginning in Revelation 6 is the wrath of GOD. It is the Lamb that is worthy to open the seals the first judgments coming upon the Earth. Revelation 6:16-17 says that after the sixth seal is opened that the the men of the earth seek to hid themselves from the wrath of the Lamb because the great day of His wrath has come. The seven seals, the seven trumpets, and the seven vials all originate in Heaven and the angels are given command on what to do (the Lamb opens the first seven seals Rev. 6:1-12, the angels that are standing before God are given the trumpets (Rev. 8:2) . Revelation 9:20 calls the trumpets plagues. When the seventh trumpet is sounded the Word of God says in Rev 11:18 that the nations were angry because the wrath of God is come. Finally Rev 15:1 says the seven angels had the last plagues and that they were filled with the wrath of God. All theses plagues are the judgments of God originating from God on the wicked of the world. How Rev 16:1-2 can be the beginning of Gods wrath I don’t understand because it doesn’t seem to me that 1. Satan was in control of any of them 2. that God was just lightly playing around with the seals and trumpets. Your rebuttal of pretribbers about the wrath of God is weak in my opinion. Please don’t say to me I’m sorry you feel that way and leave it at that, please give me a good response to the points i have made. If you don’t want to post it at least pm me you have my address.

Second, you reference Matthew chapters 24 and 25 alot in your rebuttals but most pretribbers that know what they are talking about immediately dismiss you because we don’t consider the Church and Israel as one and the same. How do you dismiss the clear imagery of the typical Jewish wedding process and the fact that the Church is referenced as the Bride of Christ.

Third, the Jews rejected their Messiah at his first Coming they rejected their King as prophesied by Isaiah and the Old Testament prophets. Matthew 23: 37-39 says that they (the Jews) would not see him again until they say Blessed is He that cometh in the Name of the Lord. That is when they recognize their Messiah, at His second coming. It is then that He sets up the Kingdom and the Millennial Reign. The whole purpose of the Tribulation period is for dealing with the Jews as a fulfillment of His covenental promises (Ezekiel 11:17-21) as well as for judgment upon the wicked. The Tribulation period was not meant for the Church, Israel was set aside until the time of the Gentiles was over. The Tribulation is Daniels 70th week.

By the way if you do a study with a concordance and a good lexicon on the 26 times the word Tribulation is in scripture it is the same Greek word use in the New Testament. When the word tribulation is used it is not always in reference to the Great Tribulation of Revelation. Yes, Jesus said we will have tribulation in John 16:33, its normal because we live in a sinful world. I am a missionary in Turkey and am writing this from there, and I understand the atrosities being committed in the world upon Christians. But I know this, they are not experiencing the wrath of God, Yes they are suffering and even being martyred for their face, this world is presently under the control of the prince of this world and my heart goes out to them. However, God did not promise us that He would save us from everything in the world but there are plenty of places in Scripture where He delivers the righteous before he pours out His judgment on a place or He preserves them through it (Ezekiel 9). Either way they are preserved. Was Paul lying when he told the Churches to comfort one another concerning the Day of Christ. How can any one take comfort in knowing they are going to have to go through the Great Tribulation, no matter how prepared materially you are for it. I’m sorry but I don’t see my God like that, not the one I have studied about in Scripture for the last 20 years. We are to prepare for the Great Tribulation by giving your heart to Christ, being saved. Please don’t think that i am anti preparation for bad times I am prepared both materially and spiritual, as much as possible that is. But I don’t plan on going through the Tribulation Israel in Chapter 12 (the saved of Israel) is miraculously preserved in the mountain as Matthew clearly states. But the saints are watching from above. By the way did you Know that Rev chapter twelve as shown to John is a synopsis of the Gospel story in the constellations known to Job and the wise men? Check it out.

I wish you the best brother, but your dogmatism on the twisting of scripture and proclaiming that someone is lying can be turned on your own head, be careful. You can tell people to prepare no problem but the way your doing it is dangerous ground. You would probably like to know if you’ve actually read this far that Steve Quayle’s site is probably my favorite site, one that i read almost daily. I am prepared I just disagree with you guys about the rapture.

I would love to agree with you. It certainly would make life easier, and my outlook on the future brighter. But, the Bible tells the truth very simply.

Please remember that the issue is about TIMING.

We can wave all kinds of Biblical metaphors at each other, but when the Bible describes the order of things, we are stuck with that. And, I’m afraid that the Bible is VERY clear on this.

Furthermore, if the pre-tribulation rapture were true, why isn’t it explicitly mentioned?

It isn’t. Anywhere.

The rapture AFTER the tribulation is explicitly mentioned. But, not before.

Jesus said that the rapture would be AFTER the Tribulation.

Paul said that the rapture would be AFTER the Antichrist.

Paul also said that the rapture would be AFTER the resurrection.

To say otherwise is to call Jesus and Paul liars. Since, I would never do that…

Well, the Pre-Tribulation Rapture must be the Lie.

And, believing a lie… well …that never ends well.

I’m sorry, Matt. You must repent of this Lie. More importantly, you must never teach it. To teach a lie brings even greater condemnation upon yourself. At the very least, you would be guilty of the blood of others, since you taught them to be unprepared for what is coming.

Thank you for standing up for TRUTH! None of us have it all figured out and if we think we do we are already deceived! I must say though that the pre trib theory twists scriptures like no other because of the other lies that must be propagated to support it! Not only will it leave so many unprepared for that day but it may also cause everyone who believes it to loose their identity! It causes professing believers to deny being part of the elect mentioned in the latter part of Revelation! Paul called the church (Jews and gentiles combined) the elect on many occasions. They MAY be forfeiting their part within this group! They believe this elect is comprised of all Jews in effect injecting unbelieving Jews (some of which are the spirit of antichrist) into their position. Example: Talmudic Jews believe Jesus is in hell being boiled in hot excrement! They fail to see that there are clearly two Israels in scripture, Israel after the flesh and spiritual Israel (Israel of God) so they elevate Israel after the flesh and claim that they are the elect of God! John Hage goes as far as to say that unbelieving Jews don’t need Jesus to have a right standing with God because God has a different plan for them! They MUST take this position in order to support their doctrine! Are they speaking according to the Word? Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Funny how the comment section stat “Heresy is NOT allowed”. Please. This site is ripe with lies.

You want to find out who the wolves are? See how a person responds to this. Usually a pre-tribulationist is passive to this, but pre-wrath folks usually reply with anger at the following passage.

Revelation 22.

18 For I testify unto every man that hears the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

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Luke 21:36

Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Hosea 4:6

My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.