If the game makes people so mad, than why pay and play it? By paying and playing, and than complaining about it 24/7 on blizzard forums and on mmochamp, you really diminish the fun positive posts that a lot of people have.

People take issue with Blizzard making a game then after several years changes direction, instead of developing for their current players and fan base they started to develop for a broader audience at the expense of the one they already had. Also, no one forces you to read threads here if they diminish your experience here, not everything can be what you consider positive.

Originally Posted by Vallin

And people who think that there were no complaints about TBC and that it was the golden age of wow are foolish. When TBC launched people HATED the fact that raids went from 40 man to 25 man. Guilds loathed it. Content honestly was really that much harder than it is today. The only thing that barred people from raiding was attunements and those were removed before WotLK. The only truly hard raid was SWP in my eyes. Illidan was a joke compared to some of the other bosses in BT. Honestly, T5 was harder than T6 in my eyes.

Just because there was complaints doesn't mean it can't be the golden age of WoW, no game will ever go without complaints, the question is how many of the complaints are based on issues that are so bad that people will leave over them, going by subscription count BC and early Wrath was the golden age of WoW, an assumption can be made that it was BC alone as the wrath direction started to lose subscribers over time.

Originally Posted by Vallin

But if the game doesn't fancy you anymore than why still play? Why still play and make another thread on mmo-champ about why you hate the direction of the game? There are already countless numbers of these threads. All these threads accomplish is the continuing negative stereotype of the PC gaming, and gaming community as a whole.

What makes you assume everyone here plays WoW? I don't, you don't have to be actively playing WoW to discuss gaming related topics and not all topics need to be positve where everyone agrees, this would be a really boring place if that was the case.

Hello. Let me preface this by saying that I'm a casual, non-elitist raider. In TBC, I only saw a little bit of SSC and TK even during Sunwell era, mainly because I didn't have too much time and I enjoyed playing in a casual guild with my friends.

The multi-tier raiding vs difficulty modes comes up way too much here, so I won't argue for a TBC system, although I much prefer it, and I believe that it really benefits everyone if executed correctly. But my question is, will we ever see a game like vanilla or TBC? I know people say that Rift is, but the game itself is so much less smooth than WoW that it's really hard for me to play. I would give anything to play something like that again... every week, going into Kara, feeling so accomplished when I finally saw the later bosses, even though I was near last on my server. At the time, I never even considered entering BT, and I looked at the people in T6 with awe. And that was a lot better for me than killing the last boss easily, and slowly progressing through the same thing again. Even for a casual raider, it seems so much less meaningful. To me, BT was not wasted even though only 5% ever saw it, because it sure as hell kept me loving the game, just because it existed.

Is this type of game possible with the mindset of current LFR raiders? Will this type of game be able to succeed in this day and age, or is it impossible when most gamers feel they are entitled to see all of the content that Blizzard makes? Every new MMO, I hope that it will happen again, and it never does. I have little faith in "project Titan", because it's looking to be F2P, and will probably be a casual moneymaker, knowing blizz. Is this type of raiding system, and game as a whole, ever going to happen again?

The game catered to Generation X on release, where the philosophy and culture was about fair effort/skill vs reward. Now the game needs to cater for instant gratification while still providing a tiny segment to the old school mentality. The devs even said if it was up to them they would keep the game challenging in all aspects like TBC but they understand new players don't want this.

So according to them they had to dumb down the game and make sure as a player who just wants to clear the content on his own can do so now without the need of ever having to communicate or rely on anyone else.

These changes might of been good for the majority of the players but it was bad for the game and sub numbers back this up. Dumbing down and making 10s equal to 25s is what caused the subs to go downhill.

Rift is currently the closest to TBC experience you will get but Trion need to market rift better and get the whole story and reason and goals for doing the content in the game which something blizzard does very well.

If subs go under 5 million the devs might say fuck it, we making the game for gamers again and we might have a fair system in place with 25 man raids being pinnacle again. The other problem is blizzard needs to think about shareholders which is something they didnt need to worry about before the activision merger.

Is this type of raiding system, and game as a whole, ever going to happen again?

It did happen. It's called Rift.

I know you said Rift isn't as "smooth" but you are wrong. Rift is one the most complete and robust games currently running. The problem with Rift is twofold: 1. massive grind 2. very high system reqs.

Rift doesn't run well on middle of the road PCs. Heck, it sorta doesn't run well on higher end PCs depending on the environment. Sometimes I get like 60fps on Ultra. Other times, I get like 12fsp on low settings...

World of Warcraft can run on like an ipad. It's meant to service the lowest common denominator of PC gamers.

If you have a top end PC, there is no doubt in my mind Rift is not bettered by any MMO on the market currently.

The problem with your logic here is that a grind like the old Furbolg and Winterspring trainers was totally optional content, same as Netherwing and Sha'tari Skyguard was in BC. People arguing that they don't want grinds like that for the most part do it because they want the reward but have no interest in the actual effort to get it, this in turn deprives people of content, especially people who like long term goals with a visible reward to show for it at the end of the long road.

In short, it's an entitlement issue that has nothing to do with being outdated nor grind for grind sake.

Bam. This guy understands the reasons for a lot of the (in my opinion) negative changes that were made to WoW.

kael'thas and illidan were ruined, completely. sargeras entire origin story was retconned, the eredar were retconned, the broken which originally were the draenei were retconned and tied to the eredar for no reason, and the dranei were added.

all of that stuff is worse to me then med'an id rather have an expansion pack featuring med'an and the super friends and have bc wiped from existence, not to mention how bland all the zones were except zangarmarsh, red rock, purple rock, green rock, spikey rock, azeroth with floating trees, and dark crystal reference.

"I was a normal baby for 30 seconds, then ninjas stole my mamma" - Deadpool
"so what do we do?" "well jack, you stand there and say 'gee rocket raccoon I'm so glad you brought that Unfeasibly large cannon with you..' and i go like this BRAKKA BRAKKA BRAKKA" - Rocket Raccoon

Lorewalkers, Tillers, Anglers and Order of the Cloud Serpent are all extremely optional rep grinds. They offer nothing but cosmetic items and items to help you out with your professions *slightly*. They are the closest thing in the game that are similar to the "optional" reps in tBC and Classic, however these are actually fairly interesting factions.

As for Furbolgs being optional, it wasn't. They had the agility enchant for weapons.

Originally Posted by melodramocracy

Gold and the 'need' for it in-game is easily one of the most overblown mindsets in this community.

Lorewalkers, Tillers, Anglers and Order of the Cloud Serpent are all extremely optional rep grinds. They offer nothing but cosmetic items and items to help you out with your professions *slightly*. They are the closest thing in the game that are similar to the "optional" reps in tBC and Classic, however these are actually fairly interesting factions.

As for Furbolgs being optional, it wasn't. They had the agility enchant for weapons.

idk if id call the cloud serpents and lorewalkers a rep grind, considering on day 1 there were already lvl 90s riding around on cloud serpents and flying discs. the tillers and the anglers are def grinds though.

whether or not the cloud serpent is more grindy once theres more competition idk but right now people are getting them within a days work

"I was a normal baby for 30 seconds, then ninjas stole my mamma" - Deadpool
"so what do we do?" "well jack, you stand there and say 'gee rocket raccoon I'm so glad you brought that Unfeasibly large cannon with you..' and i go like this BRAKKA BRAKKA BRAKKA" - Rocket Raccoon

The game catered to Generation X on release, where the philosophy and culture was about fair effort/skill vs reward. Now the game needs to cater for instant gratification while still providing a tiny segment to the old school mentality. The devs even said if it was up to them they would keep the game challenging in all aspects like TBC but they understand new players don't want this.

I see this as a catch 22, Blizzard started to cater to the insta gratification crowd and now they can't go back as new players don't want it because Blizzard stopped demanding effort from them.

Originally Posted by ShadowCrafter

If subs go under 5 million the devs might say fuck it, we making the game for gamers again and we might have a fair system in place with 25 man raids being pinnacle again.

To add, Blizzard gave more people access to high end dungeons, because they felt the need to cater more to the bad players, which is the majority, that kept demanding access on the official forums like rabid consumers tend to do.

Blizzard told us the stats. It was an estimated 5% of the player base in TBC was actually raiding all of the end-game content. WotLK boosted that number hugely to start with and the reason the subs were so high was because the WotLK opening raids were very accessible (easy) and lots of people wanted to see more about Arthas and the PR/advertising section of Blizzard went insane on the run up to its release. Numbers began to decline with Ulduar's release and constantly free-fell after that. The amount of people who only actually had the first 4 bosses done in Ulduar until ICC released/Cataclysm and beyond was probably ridiculously low (This is speculative, but judging by conversations and achieves most people had at the time, probably not far off).

People seem to base everything around this baby boom that was WotLK and don't actually look at the fact: It was a one off. The numbers hit with WotLK are unlikely to ever be hit again, it was well timed and marketed to death. It cleaned up because it was programmed to and there was little/no competition. Blizzard has refined and re-defined the game endlessly since TBC and has bowed to the majority's demands. WoW is how it is now because of the players.

As for Furbolgs being optional, it wasn't. They had the agility enchant for weapons.

Which was still optional to get as it would in theory be enough that one guy per realm knew it, with todays additions there really would be little to no reason for you to grind it if you didn't want to as enough would do it and put scrolls up on AH.

Only thing I can think of that wasn't optional back then was rep "grind" to get heroic keys and attunements if you wanted to raid, although I liked attunements, the only issue with them was that they wasn't account based, something that wouldn't be an issue in todays WoW.

I see this as a catch 22, Blizzard started to cater to the insta gratification crowd and now they can't go back as new players don't want it because Blizzard stopped demanding effort from them.

One can always hope, would bring me back.

its a shame only about 2 million people in the entire game even raid. even if wow got down to 5 million they would still never cater to raiders because they will never be the majority nor have they ever been.

"I was a normal baby for 30 seconds, then ninjas stole my mamma" - Deadpool
"so what do we do?" "well jack, you stand there and say 'gee rocket raccoon I'm so glad you brought that Unfeasibly large cannon with you..' and i go like this BRAKKA BRAKKA BRAKKA" - Rocket Raccoon

Blizzard told us the stats. It was an estimated 5% of the player base in TBC was actually raiding all of the end-game content.

Yet they never released any stats beyond how many did SW/ Completed SW, it could potentially have been a much higher number in BT and even more in T5 content, not everyone needs to complete the final raid, hence why people disagree when it comes to segmented vs linear progression.

Originally Posted by ShadowCrafter

Blizzard has refined and re-defined the game endlessly since TBC and has bowed to the majority's demands. WoW is how it is now because of the players.

Which means nothing, the players are not always right, something that the ever decreasing subscriber base suggest.

---------- Post added 2012-10-03 at 02:49 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Immitis

its a shame only about 2 million people in the entire game even raid. even if wow got down to 5 million they would still never cater to raiders because they will never be the majority nor have they ever been.

The problem with their switch to segmented raiding back in wrath was that they tried to push everyone in to raiding as the sole end game content, as a consequence of this they got an increased i-lvl inflation with an increased stats inflation making the rift between old and new even wider. They seem to have woken up to what they should have done originally, make content for non raiders, this would have allowed them to keep developing raids for raiders and keep the linear progression path.

Before anyone makes the argument that there was/is a low percentage of players raiding so it's not viable to develop it for them (Blizzards go to argument), 10% of the player base pay for all of the costs Blizzard have developing and running WoW, 50% of the revenue from WoW pays for all of Activision/Blizzards product development.

Mist is as close to BC as you are ever going to get. They made the rep grinds tied to dailies ala: Netherwing, Ogri'la, Sha'tari Skyguard... they reintroduced PUGable Heroic Dungeons right out of the gate... and gave us a feeling that the world is just beginning at max level instead of waiting around with nothing to do. Mist takes the best parts of every expansion and builds on it... I have never been more excited about logging in to WoW. To each their own... personally I base my enjoyment on what I can accomplish... not looking wishfully at T6 gear err, I mean Challenge mode gear... go get it! All things change... don't fear it... embrace it and enjoy the ride.

Yet they never released any stats beyond how many did SW/ Completed SW, it could potentially have been a much higher number in BT and even more in T5 content, not everyone needs to complete the final raid, hence why people disagree when it comes to segmented vs linear progression.

Which means nothing, the players are not always right, something that the ever decreasing subscriber base suggest.

---------- Post added 2012-10-03 at 02:49 PM ----------

The problem with their switch to segmented raiding back in wrath was that they tried to push everyone in to raiding as the sole end game content, as a consequence of this they got an increased i-lvl inflation with an increased stats inflation making the rift between old and new even wider. They seem to have woken up to what they should have done originally, make content for non raiders, this would have allowed them to keep developing raids for raiders and keep the linear progression path.

Before anyone makes the argument that there was/is a low percentage of players raiding so it's not viable to develop it for them (Blizzards go to argument), 10% of the player base pay for all of the costs Blizzard have developing and running WoW, 50% of the revenue from WoW pays for all of Activision/Blizzards product development.

a blue post a couple months ago said 2 million people had done dragon soul on either lfr normal or heroic thats only 2 million out of 10 million with lfr. if only 2 million people raided when you could que for it what makes you think the number was anywhere near that for anything back in bc with things like attunements?

only 1000 guilds ever did sunwell assuming each guild had at a minimum of 25 people thats around 25,000 people out of i believe 8 million. compared to cataclysm 2 million out of 10 million

"I was a normal baby for 30 seconds, then ninjas stole my mamma" - Deadpool
"so what do we do?" "well jack, you stand there and say 'gee rocket raccoon I'm so glad you brought that Unfeasibly large cannon with you..' and i go like this BRAKKA BRAKKA BRAKKA" - Rocket Raccoon

Yet they never released any stats beyond how many did SW/ Completed SW, it could potentially have been a much higher number in BT and even more in T5 content, not everyone needs to complete the final raid, hence why people disagree when it comes to segmented vs linear progression.

Which means nothing, the players are not always right, something that the ever decreasing subscriber base suggest.

really have you spoke with every single player that quit and confirmed they ALL quit because they were unhappy with the games direction? i'm sure some did.
some quit for other reasons like life. forgot to cancel it of their cards and it finally expired off. others just moved on.

bottom linely the only thing the shrinking subs do prove is the game is aging.

now then. as for a return to classic wow/tbc. not likely anytime soon. blizzard found them self in a unique possition that no other MMO before ever faced.. the non endgamers didnt quit.. they stayed. most mmo's the endgamers were the majority.. in wow they were the minority. blizzard started to lean twards opening things up a big in TBC by reducing raids from 40.. but the difficulty was left in place. they went even futher in WOTLK to open things up.. that combined with the fact that both expansions contained 1 of the 2 most known characters besides thrall in warcraft history contrinbuted to the high subs..

cata they tried to bump the difficulty backup a bit.. combined with the fact that really unless you really were in to warcraft deathwing ingame lore from wc2 was well weak and only somewhat important (greatly expanded apoun outside of the games) so really no one really seem to care about deathwing.

People take issue with Blizzard making a game then after several years changes direction, instead of developing for their current players and fan base they started to develop for a broader audience at the expense of the one they already had. Also, no one forces you to read threads here if they diminish your experience here, not everything can be what you consider positive.

Blizzard didnt change direction except at the start of cata.

Blizzard ALWAYS made WoW as the most casual friendly and each expansion more casual friendly than the PREVIOUS one except for the first half of Cata, which was a big mistake that they are trying to fix with MoP.

they always tried to cater for the broader audience, which is why Vanilla was a casual version of EQ and UO, TBC a casual version of vanilla, Wrath a casual version of TBC, etc, etc.

Blizzard ALWAYS made WoW as the most casual friendly and each expansion more casual friendly than the PREVIOUS one except for the first half of Cata, which was a big mistake that they are trying to fix with MoP.

they always tried to cater for the broader audience, which is why Vanilla was a casual version of EQ and UO, TBC a casual version of vanilla, Wrath a casual version of TBC, etc, etc.

see this guy gets it. wow was always the easy game. i remember back when the everquest guys would be like "pfft you play wow? that games for kids" ect ect. then bc came out and people were like "epics are so easy to get now this games for casuals" then it became "raids are so easy to get into now this game is for casuals" and then it was "you can get raid gear from vendors this game is for casuals" then mists came out and there wasnt really anything wrong with it in fact its probably the best expansion yet and all they can say is "pandas and pokemon"

"I was a normal baby for 30 seconds, then ninjas stole my mamma" - Deadpool
"so what do we do?" "well jack, you stand there and say 'gee rocket raccoon I'm so glad you brought that Unfeasibly large cannon with you..' and i go like this BRAKKA BRAKKA BRAKKA" - Rocket Raccoon

It's completely beyond me how people can get hung up over such secondary and hardly relevant things like "progression models" so much it becomes a game-breaker for them. It totally reeks of "let's find something I can bitch and be miserable about to make myself important." Really ridiculous.