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Re: Terrible subversions/ Parodies.

There are two gentleman; Friedberg and Seltzer, who make parody movies of less than stellar quality.

Now I say parody in the loosest definition possible, there are characters that may physically resemble characters in other media, or at least some of them are given names similar to those in other media. But the plots are insane and is cluttered by a messy smorgasbord of pop culture references and innuendo that is mistaken for humor by the above mentioned gentleman.

Re: Terrible subversions/ Parodies.

The subversion I've always loathed was The Cold Equations. In order to subvert the "Science always saves the day!" trope of contemporay science fiction, the author set up a situation so contrived that, not only would preventing the girl's death be extremely trivial, the sort of mission described in the story would nearly always fail due to elementary engineering. Besides that, there was enough explicitly-identified junk in the ship to make up the 40-80 kg of mass that the girl took up.

Re: Terrible subversions/ Parodies.

Ehh, I thought it had some good jokes. Though admittedly the plot was overcomplicated and scattered (they can't do plot well), the villains were consistently humorous, and even in the gags that didn't work (Critic running from the minions), there were parts that actually got me a good laugh intermixed with it (Benzai's cameo).

But yeah, I can definitely see why it'd be hated. But it's not nearly on the level of the Friedberg and Seltzer duo.

Re: Terrible subversions/ Parodies.

Originally Posted by Dienekes

But yeah, I can definitely see why it'd be hated. But it's not nearly on the level of the Friedberg and Seltzer duo.

I disagree with that. Most of it was just references for the sake of references. And Friedberg/Seltzer at least keep it at barely over an hour so while it's horrible, it's at least short. Not a friggin' 3 and a half hours.

Re: Terrible subversions/ Parodies.

Yeah not to break up the circle of mutually complimentary complaining but some of us out there liked To Boldly Flee on the whole.

Maybe its just me but it seems to me that if a parody was really all that clever it would cease to be a parody because it would be breaking new ground in an inherently derivative genre. Then again I'm tough sell on comedy.

I find that the distinction between good and bad comedy is generally less about the whether its funny and about whether it tells a good story too. Perhaps more then it should TBF managed to make me care about (some) of the people in it. I've yet to find anyone that didn't find something groan inducing (mine was Phelous, die you unfunny bastard) and bits started picking up that SNL-sketch quality where they might have been funny, but only for thirty seconds. I still enjoyed it a lot more then some so-called professional works.

And they had an unnecessary musical number, you can never go wrong with an unnecessary musical number! Especially a pretty well performed and choreographed one

Now if I had to pick where parody fails I would say it is when it feel untrue to its source material or there isn't enough. Generally when the creator doesn't do any research, often to the point that you don't feel like they watched whatever they were parodying at all. Much less love it, and I think you have to love the material to parody it well. Okay maybe a bit far, but at least like or see the appeal of it. Otherwise the jokes will feel old or flat or both.

A good example of this would be the Reincarnation episode of Futurama. Namely the anime segment. It's 2011 and you're making stale jokes about bad dubbing and limited animation in anime Futurama? Seriously there wasn't anything more timely like mid-90s. Watch some Lucky Star and see how to really do it next time!

Re: Terrible subversions/ Parodies.

Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon

Its one thing if a piece of media sucks, but its another if it sucks whilst thinking its so clever.

How about the average depiction of the 'nerd/geek' in just about any TV show or movie? You know the ones written by people that are not part of 'our' culture and how they just get stuff so ....wrong. Like for example, how they are never normal people but always 'weird outcasts'. You never see, for example, a normal married person playing a RPG unless it's a ''stereotypical Hollywood dad who acts like he is 10 all the time''. You sure don't see a mom who bakes cookies in between the Assault on the Dark Lords Fortress.

Oh, and most fiction does such a bad job of the 'modern adult woman' too. They try to take a stereotypical 1950's like character useless princess type and 'update' her into a modern woman, but then just ruin her beyond belief. One of the ones I hate the worst is the little 98 pound girls who like ninja chop a guy and knock him down or out with one hit. The little girls that could not even take me out are taking out say Stone Cold Steve Austin with like one punch....yea, right, shows how 'tough' women are....

Re: Terrible subversions/ Parodies.

Originally Posted by Gamer Girl

Oh, and most fiction does such a bad job of the 'modern adult woman' too. They try to take a stereotypical 1950's like character useless princess type and 'update' her into a modern woman, but then just ruin her beyond belief. One of the ones I hate the worst is the little 98 pound girls who like ninja chop a guy and knock him down or out with one hit. The little girls that could not even take me out are taking out say Stone Cold Steve Austin with like one punch....yea, right, shows how 'tough' women are....

Does anyone do this except Joss Whedon?

Originally Posted by Red Fel, on quest rewards

"Is a stack of ten pancakes too many pancakes to give to the party, even if most of them fell on the floor and one or two were stepped on? I wanted to give my party pancakes as a reward but I'm unsure if it's too much. The pancakes are also laced with blowfish poison so the party would have to get an antitoxin before they could eat the ones which weren't pulverized by shoes."

I don't think anyone would want those pancakes even if you paid them to eat them.

Re: Terrible subversions/ Parodies.

Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee

A good example of this would be the Reincarnation episode of Futurama. Namely the anime segment. It's 2011 and you're making stale jokes about bad dubbing and limited animation in anime Futurama? Seriously there wasn't anything more timely like mid-90s. Watch some Lucky Star and see how to really do it next time!

I actually found that one pretty funny. I kind of saw it as less of a parody of badly-dubbed anime so much as it's poking fun at anime, by overly emphasizing classic anime stereotypes. That may not be a major flaw any more, but the usual anime stereotype is still basically of cheeky mouths, hyperactive formatting, and stilted, poorly-dubbed dialogue.

Originally Posted by Gamer Girl

One of the ones I hate the worst is the little 98 pound girls who like ninja chop a guy and knock him down or out with one hit. The little girls that could not even take me out are taking out say Stone Cold Steve Austin with like one punch....yea, right, shows how 'tough' women are....

Re: Terrible subversions/ Parodies.

Originally Posted by Gamer Girl

How about the average depiction of the 'nerd/geek' in just about any TV show or movie? You know the ones written by people that are not part of 'our' culture and how they just get stuff so ....wrong. Like for example, how they are never normal people but always 'weird outcasts'. You never see, for example, a normal married person playing a RPG unless it's a ''stereotypical Hollywood dad who acts like he is 10 all the time''. You sure don't see a mom who bakes cookies in between the Assault on the Dark Lords Fortress.

Oh, and most fiction does such a bad job of the 'modern adult woman' too. They try to take a stereotypical 1950's like character useless princess type and 'update' her into a modern woman, but then just ruin her beyond belief. One of the ones I hate the worst is the little 98 pound girls who like ninja chop a guy and knock him down or out with one hit. The little girls that could not even take me out are taking out say Stone Cold Steve Austin with like one punch....yea, right, shows how 'tough' women are....

That may actually be a consequence of there not being any actresses who do not fit that mould. Perhaps the part was written about a normal-sized woman and all they could find for the part was a chinchilla-weight?

Pretty sloppy justification though, because you have to extend it. I'm willing to buy 'some authors have never been expose to realistic mass in such a sense' but not every author. Not every actress. Etc.

Re: Terrible subversions/ Parodies.

I'd just like to point out that two of the three are literally superhuman, yes? (though I just can't ever buy Geller in the physical parts of that role) and I can't even recall River doing anything that seems unreasonable, Strength-wise.

Oh but on topic: what Soras said--truly great parodies feel almost/actually loving. They aren't just saying "look how dumb this is," they are poking fun at the foibles of a beloved property/genre.

Re: Terrible subversions/ Parodies.

Originally Posted by Dr.Epic

I disagree with that. Most of it was just references for the sake of references. And Friedberg/Seltzer at least keep it at barely over an hour so while it's horrible, it's at least short. Not a friggin' 3 and a half hours.

But there were some actual funny jokes in that 3.5 hours. I don't think I have ever laughed at an F&S movie.

Also for Waif-fu. It only really annoys me when no reason is given or it's blatantly ridiculous. Like River, where it's blatantly obvious that the enemies WITH GUNS are running toward the girl's fists.

Re: Terrible subversions/ Parodies.

Originally Posted by Lateral

I actually found that one pretty funny. I kind of saw it as less of a parody of badly-dubbed anime so much as it's poking fun at anime, by overly emphasizing classic anime stereotypes. That may not be a major flaw any more, but the usual anime stereotype is still basically of cheeky mouths, hyperactive formatting, and stilted, poorly-dubbed dialogue.

I might have less of a problem if I felt like anyone in the West had ever done an even vaguely timely parody of anime. Maybe there are there, but I'm not aware of them. Abridged series excepted here. And maybe Samurai Pizza Cats if taken as an anime parody rather as much as a comedy, best dub ever.

And while I'm almost certainly biased the aspects they are highlighting are not something I as a fan look back on fondly at all so there's nothing to be gained by drawing on them. I'm probably being to serious, but I still feel like stuff like that still stinks of "hah hah anime is so weird and foreign hah hah" superiority and not taking it as a serious medium.

Not something I feel can result in successful parody.

Originally Posted by Susano-wo

I'd just like to point out that two of the three are literally superhuman, yes? (though I just can't ever buy Geller in the physical parts of that role) and I can't even recall River doing anything that seems unreasonable, Strength-wise.

I read somewhere that Summer Glau did a lot of acrobatics herself. Like that hanging from the ceiling, she apparently went and got up there and there's no wires or anything there. Which if nothing else is pretty cool.

Originally Posted by Gamer Girl

Oh, and most fiction does such a bad job of the 'modern adult woman' too. They try to take a stereotypical 1950's like character useless princess type and 'update' her into a modern woman, but then just ruin her beyond belief. One of the ones I hate the worst is the little 98 pound girls who like ninja chop a guy and knock him down or out with one hit. The little girls that could not even take me out are taking out say Stone Cold Steve Austin with like one punch....yea, right, shows how 'tough' women are....

What would you suggest as a remedy then?

I'm interested because I'm not the biggest fan of this sort of thing either, in part from awareness of this issue. Yet I feel a certain nervousness raising the point that yeah, size and strength do matter. And men in a pretty solid majority have both on women, without some stronger but slower trade-off either. Yet off the top of my head I can only think of Karrin Murphy in the Dresden Files really facing this head on and drawing attention to it.

The alternative seems to be "strangely" women only get in fights with other women. Or being straight up non-combatants. I'm not sure I've come up with a satisfying solution, other then I guess going for more realistic gun fights but shooting someone dead has its own set of issues.

Re: Terrible subversions/ Parodies.

Most of the abridged series stuff on Youtube is terribad. I know, they're Youtube videos and so on, but still.

Starship Troopers, which I believe was intended to be a parody of 50's SF using the Heinlein title. Done by people who I suspect never really read anything from the Golden Age of Science Fiction, Heinlein included.

Re: Terrible subversions/ Parodies.

Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee

I might have less of a problem if I felt like anyone in the West had ever done an even vaguely timely parody of anime. Maybe there are there, but I'm not aware of them. Abridged series excepted here. And maybe Samurai Pizza Cats if taken as an anime parody rather as much as a comedy, best dub ever.

And while I'm almost certainly biased the aspects they are highlighting are not something I as a fan look back on fondly at all so there's nothing to be gained by drawing on them. I'm probably being to serious, but I still feel like stuff like that still stinks of "hah hah anime is so weird and foreign hah hah" superiority and not taking it as a serious medium.

Not something I feel can result in successful parody.

I think you're taking it a bit too seriously and are a bit too defensive of anime. More to the point given the nerd generation that the majority of futurama's writers came from they were most likely parodying anime that they grew up on rather than what is around right now. Just like the video game segment wasn't about Gears of War and Wii Sports, but was about games that were far older. It is an episode about the past and silly things that come from it.

Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee

What would you suggest as a remedy then?

I'm interested because I'm not the biggest fan of this sort of thing either, in part from awareness of this issue. Yet I feel a certain nervousness raising the point that yeah, size and strength do matter. And men in a pretty solid majority have both on women, without some stronger but slower trade-off either. Yet off the top of my head I can only think of Karrin Murphy in the Dresden Files really facing this head on and drawing attention to it.

The alternative seems to be "strangely" women only get in fights with other women. Or being straight up non-combatants. I'm not sure I've come up with a satisfying solution, other then I guess going for more realistic gun fights but shooting someone dead has its own set of issues.

I'd say if you want some sort of she-hulk woman who defeats people in a single punch then she should look the part and be muscular enough to actually do said punching. There are muscular women out there hollywood simply doesn't hire them. Either that or have the slim waifs use fighting styles that emphasize speed and mobility due to their massive lack of muscle mass, and just generally try to not be hit during the fights.

Re: Terrible subversions/ Parodies.

Originally Posted by Kitten Champion

Most of the abridged series stuff on Youtube is terribad. I know, they're Youtube videos and so on, but still.

Starship Troopers, which I believe was intended to be a parody of 50's SF using the Heinlein title. Done by people who I suspect never really read anything from the Golden Age of Science Fiction, Heinlein included.

Suspect? ST's director is openly and unapologetically on record that he didn't get past the first few chapters of Starship Troopers the novel because it was too depressing. It's very much satire, but wasn't intended as a parody of science fiction.

Originally Posted by Red Fel, on quest rewards

"Is a stack of ten pancakes too many pancakes to give to the party, even if most of them fell on the floor and one or two were stepped on? I wanted to give my party pancakes as a reward but I'm unsure if it's too much. The pancakes are also laced with blowfish poison so the party would have to get an antitoxin before they could eat the ones which weren't pulverized by shoes."

I don't think anyone would want those pancakes even if you paid them to eat them.

Re: Terrible subversions/ Parodies.

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

Suspect? ST's director is openly and unapologetically on record that he didn't get past the first few chapters of Starship Troopers the novel because it was too depressing. It's very much satire, but wasn't intended as a parody of science fiction.

Plus I think it is poking fun and deconstructing at militaristic culture of Heinlein aka

Spoiler

Show

Suicidal overconfidence that Aliens do not have ground to space weapons and the idea that they will build power armor at first contact. Well, he reconstructed it by adding power armor in 3rd sequel.

Re: Terrible subversions/ Parodies.

Originally Posted by Kitten Champion

Starship Troopers, which I believe was intended to be a parody of 50's SF using the Heinlein title. Done by people who I suspect never really read anything from the Golden Age of Science Fiction, Heinlein included.

I suspect you'd like the Starship Troopers Roughnecks Animated Series, as it's far closer to the book in tone, and it has some good writing and some great designs for the Bugs and Skinnies by the talented Fil Barlow. If you live in the US, you can watch it on Hulu for free. The 1990s CGI hasn't aged that well though, which makes it all the sadder that that's what caused the show to be cancelled before its 4-part-epic-finale.

Also, on the waif-fu archetype, on my NaNoWriMo Project {Shameless plug} I do have a female swordfighter character strong enough to chop through concrete, but I did deliberately give her a gymnast's build with defined muscles to make it feel moderately plausible. Because, lord knows in your world of space aliens and Arizonan dinosaurs, plausibility is key.

Re: Terrible subversions/ Parodies.

The Starship Troopers movie is intended as a parody/deconstruction of the Starship Troopers book.

And it is brilliant at doing this...

More the themes of the book than the book itself since, as noted, Verhoven didn't bother to actually finish reading the book before he made the movie.

Originally Posted by Red Fel, on quest rewards

"Is a stack of ten pancakes too many pancakes to give to the party, even if most of them fell on the floor and one or two were stepped on? I wanted to give my party pancakes as a reward but I'm unsure if it's too much. The pancakes are also laced with blowfish poison so the party would have to get an antitoxin before they could eat the ones which weren't pulverized by shoes."

I don't think anyone would want those pancakes even if you paid them to eat them.