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Gun control: President Obama’s biggest loss

Never before had President Barack Obama put the moral force and political muscle of his presidency behind an issue quite this big — and lost quite this badly.
The president, shaken to the core by the massacre of 26 innocents at Sandy Hook Elementary School, broke his own informal “Obama Rule” — of never leaning into an issue without a clear path to victory — first by pushing for a massive gun control package no one expected to pass, and then sticking through it even as he retrenched to a relatively modest bipartisan bill mandating national background checks on gun purchases.
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Obama: 'Shameful day in Washington'
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It was a bitter defeat for a president accustomed to winning, a second-term downer that may — or may not — foreshadow the slow decline suffered by so many of his predecessors. Obama seems to have the public behind him, but it illustrated his less-than-Johnsonian powers of personal persuasion, the possible shortcomings of his decision to wait a month after the killings to present a plan and above all the limits of his go-to “outside” strategy of taking his case directly to the American people.
(Also on POLITICO: Obama laments "shameful day")
More than anything, it was an emotional blow to Obama, who was as irritated at the four members of his own party as he was at the 90 percent of Republicans who defeated the bill.
One administration official told POLITICO the White House was especially disappointed with Sen. Heidi Heitkamp (D-N.D), the only dissenting Democrat not up for re-election next year, who refused to go along with the bill even after White House chief of staff Denis McDonough visited her office to make Obama’s case on Tuesday.
(Also on POLITICO: Gun bill hits brick wall in Senate)
Still, officials believed Heitkamp would have flipped if they had gotten closer to the 60 votes they needed.
“The president was tremendously committed and emotionally engaged. I watched the president with these families. He was there for them and really felt it,” said Sen. Richard Blumenthal, a Connecticut Democrat who worked closely with the White House in the aftermath of the worst school shooting in the history of his state.
(Also on POLITICO: Senate gun control roll call vote: Senators who bucked their party)
“Background checks will happen,” he added, minutes after the vote. “This outcome is a delay, not a defeat.”
Added Sen. Barbara Boxer (D-Calif.): “I never saw a president fight so hard, a vice president, never on any issue… It shows us the cowardice of the Senate.”
In the end, however, moderates and conservatives in the upper chamber said they simply couldn’t deal with a flurry of progressive issues at once — from gay marriage to immigration to guns.
The other three Democratic “no” votes — Max Baucus of Montana, Mark Pryor of Arkansas and Mark Begich of Alaska — were never really in play, sources familiar with the situation told POLITICO.
Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2013/04/gun-control-vote-obamas-biggest-loss-90244.html#ixzz2QoSQy6UN

Those who care about people want to make sure that guns are not limited to criminals (and military) only. It's much safer if a criminal never knows when a law abiding citizen might be armed.

Even kids understand how stupid the whole thing is. My son and I had a discussion yesterday where he said something like: When we had the bombings, they were saying how the bombers were bad guys. When we had the shooters, the (ill-informed) people were saying how bad guns are. That doesn't make sense.

Quoting lga1965:

“This outcome is a delay, not a defeat.” Added Sen. Barbara Boxer (D-Calif.): “I never saw a president fight so hard, a vice president, never on any issue… It shows us the cowardice of the Senate.” In the end, however, moderates and conservatives in the upper chamber said they simply couldn’t deal with a flurry of progressive issues at once — from gay marriage to immigration to guns. The other three Democratic “no” votes — Max Baucus of Montana, Mark Pryor of Arkansas and Mark Begich of Alaska — were never really in play, sources familiar with the situation told POLITICO.

****************

This is true. It's not over yet. My state senators were with the President and I am proud of them. Those of us who care about people more than guns will continue to believe that gun controlwill become a reality.

Cars kill more people every year than guns. Swimming pools kill more children than any semi-automatic rifles. Sports (football and wrestling in particular) are more lethal than guns for kids. Are you willing to give all of those up? How about all your kitchen knives (you may keep the butter knives if you register them and put your name on a list so we know you have them, and get training and a permit for them). Oh ~ you should also get a million dollar insurance policy so that if you or anyone who happens to touch those butter knives causes injury or death with one they are covered. That's reasonable, right?

Guns are absolutely a tool ~ and as a method of remaining a free person, they are absolutely precious.

If you do not consider 'your' freedom just as precious, that's your choice ~ but you do NOT have any right to determine MY choice. You have NO right to determine where I live.

I don't drink or get drunk. My children are grown and raising their own children (and gee ... even with guns in the home, training on how to use those guns safely, and WITHOUT ridiculous locks and safes that render a gun useless for home defense) and not one of them EVER got shot, narrowly missed getting shot, had a friend shoot them or get shot, etc. They all have guns in their own homes now ~ and none of their children (my grandbabies) have been injured.

See that part highlighted in red? Well, I'm not military. I have taken no oath to defend 'your' rights or anyone elses'. If 'you' would derrive any protection from my guns or my actions under your scenario, it would be by chance ~ not by any deliberate action on my part. I meant what I said. If you are willing to hand over your rights, or vote to take away the rights of others based on your own fear, paranoia, distaste, or just because you got up on the wrong side of bed this morning, you deserve none of the rights you have imo ~ and you don't deserve to have anyone else in this country fight/die to preserve those rights for you. No, I would not take up arms to defend you.

I have no problem with a federal law, applicable in all 50 states that carries a mandatory death penalty for ANY crime where ANY weapon is used. Not just guns. Add in knives, baseball bats, a can of beans, a hammer, a vehicle (especially if dui is involved), etc. Any weapon. If there are witnesses, video, dna, or a confession, I'm all for tossing any appeals as well. People who hurt other people because they are angry, drunk, stoned, medicated, etc. are defective. If we can return defective toasters to the manufacturer, we should be able to do the same with defective humans ~ it's not like there is a shortage of them.

All that being said, I do not believe that treating people worse than criminals for exercising a right is acceptable. If you ~ personally ~ aren't willing to line up everyone who is mentally ill, being treated for mental illness, taking ANY medication that induces/may induce periods of rage, hallucinations, paranoia, etc. ... and make them do everything that a prospective gun owner would, than you are part of the problem.

In your world, I'd rather be a criminal than a law-abiding citizen. I'm very capable of living my life with the freedoms, the rights, AND the responsibilities the Constitution sets out. In your world, those would all disappear. The Constitution is not up for grabs. You can be as angry as you want about that, call good people all the names you want, fantasize about how evil the are (or will be at some point) ... but you are not worthy of sentencing them without just cause. The lack of respect you show for people you do not know, who obey the law, and who have done you no harm is ludicrous. It's based on nothing but your fear. The fact that you are militant about wanting to punish people for not doing things your way makes 'me' wonder about you.

I am a mom and a grandma. I'm a military mom, spouse, daughter, and sister. I've hunted since I was 12 (off and on). I now am retired and have a small sustainable farm. I raise meat and dairy animals. I'm 45 minutes from the nearest farm vet (if they are open). We have coyotes, fox, bears, packs of feral dogs, snakes, and of all things three big cats roaming thanks to a disgruntled ex-wife. We have occasional alligators wander through. I've had neighbors lose an entire flock in one night to feral dogs. I've had raccoons in my chicken coop and flippin 35 pound possums with distemper hissing at me on my porch. We have snakes lounging in the sun and some of them smile.

I have pigs that weigh 600 pounds. I have a few dairy goats that have cost a small fortune but provide us with healthy milk and cheese. I have poultry (chickens, ducks, geese, peafowl, and turkeys). I also have a garden and an orchard, meat rabbits, and pets.

What I ALSO have is a RIGHT to live on this farm that I dreamed of, waited for, and planned and worked my butt off for for over 20 years. Not only that, I have a RIGHT to own the tools that I need to take care of it properly. If you happen to be afraid of some of those tools ~ that is your right ... but you have NO right to rant, rave, and carry on like a broody hen because I happen to just exist on the same planet that you live on. I'm not going to hurt you any more than I'm going to hurt that broody hen, but I have a lot more patience and tolerance for her because SHE at least is doing something useful. I don't know you, I've done nothing to you, but you want to control me, punish me, limit my choices, and take away my rights.

How about you take care of your life, and deal with your own fears instead of projecting them on me or taking them out on me?

Quoting idunno1234:

"And, I 'get' that you are willing to throw away the only (and best) security for a free people to remain free that has EVER been written into a Constitution because you are afraid.

I 'get' that you honestly have NO idea that if that second amendment is gone that EVERY right and freedom you enjoy would also be gone, and that ANY bit of peace and/or security that you are craving so much will be even further out of reach."

Uh huh. Is this really what you tell yourself to justify holding onto your precious tools invented with the sole purpose of killing? Do I need to post a link for the latest statistics on how many people are killed EVERY day just in this country by guns? How many people are injured and maimed? What a supremely odd idea of what makes for a secure nation in your eyes- arming "law-abiding citizens" to the teeth to protect the rest of us yeehaws from the tyranny of our democratically elected government. Right, because you are all law abiding until the day you aren't. It just takes one drunken rage, one stupid accident, one moment of a child's curiosity and a parent's carelessness, one moment of despair and law abiding goes out the window. Every hour of every day this happens multiple times. But yeah sure, you will protect us from tyranny.

I have yet to hear how this is going to happen in practical terms. So please spell it out for me. I'll start by setting the scenario you all seem to crave so much: Obama is a fascist, socialist, communist (heard them all, wish you would all make up your minds) who's sole intent is to destroy this country and hand it over to Muslims (or is it progressives or poor people or liberal something or others?)and he finally succeeds. I have no idea how because he would have to destroy congress and have total control over the military as well as local and state law enforcement agencies but lets say your fantasy plays out. Obama declares martial law, makes all guns illegal, makes all rich people poor and poor people rich, makes schools indoctrinate our innocent children with Muslim teachings at the same managing to get in some Progressive Liberal shit in there too,(although they are theoretically opposed but you all seem to think this is his intent) and says to the rest of the world- walk all over us because I am evil and want to destroy the United States.

Okay, so I'm assuming this is when you will all come in with your weaponry and protect us from his evil tyranny. Exactly how is that going to play out? Please, tell me how making sure citizens are armed is going to protect you from the military? Who's going to protect us unarmed citizens from the likes of all you??

I have also made clear multiple times my awareness of the fantasy of my perfect utopian world versus the reality of the state of the human race as it exists today. Realizing those realities, I laid out a plan, I believe in my first post, that should allow all "law abiding" citizens the right to their beloved guns after going through a rigorous licensing process that is at least as difficult, if not more so, than getting a driver's license. Why you "law abiding" gun lovers don't advocate for this, I don't know. Why you aren't all at the forefront to make sure existing laws are enforced, to insist that anyone with an unlicensed gun should have an automatic prison sentence, that the use of a gun in any crime means an automatic life sentence, that all gun show loop holes need to be closed, that internet trafficking needs to be slammed shut, this is why the majority of people in this country see you as loonies. Having idiots like LaPierre and Ted Nugent acting as the voice of so called responsible gun owners reflects badly on all of you. Although, reading through your posts, a number of you on here, i realize that those loons represent you quite well. However, people like you, like them, only polarize things further. It hurts your "cause".

The inability for "law abiding" gun owning citizens to stand up and say that gun violence is utterly unacceptable and lets see what WE can do, as gun owners, to work for change so that not one more unnecessary life is lost, is what loses me and almost everyone I talk to, including some gun owners who get the reality of today's world. Its all of you that are living in this odd fantasy in order to justify bad behavior when your precious weapons are used in the way they were intended- to kill.

Comparing guns to things that weren't invented with the sole intent to kill is ludicrous and frankly, makes you all sound desperate.

You have yet to tell me exactly how guns keep you free. I am still waiting for details about how your pathetic weapons will keep you free from the military might, the same military you say you have family members a part of, behind a supposed tyrannical government. Do you not see how ridiculous this sounds?? Yes my freedom is precious. Freedom from violence is a perfectly acceptable and normal freedom to want to have. Do you really think I would look to you for protection??? If you aren't a threat, another testosterone fueled gun lover may be. Then what will you do, shoot it out between you? Between all of you? We aren't talking about any well armed militias that exist for the good of anybody but the people who live out their macho fantasies pretending that's what they are. So, we are actually talking about a lot of armed people running around creating their own laws. If anarchy ensues in your fantasy vision of an evil Obama attempting to destroy this country and people are running around armed to the teeth, who is going to protect me from them?? Are you really saying that because I don't agree with you I don't deserve the freedom to be secure in my own country? Since when does hating violence and the fact that it continues to be a huge issue in almost every corner of this planet make one weak, fearful or less deserving of freedoms than you?

I haven't insulted anyone, other than using the term loony because that is honestly how your world view comes across. I get that you were raised around guns, that they are an integral part of your life, a natural part of living on a farm but you keep referring to yourself- YOU don't drink alcohol, YOU are law abiding, YOU know and taught your children gun safety, no one YOU know has been shot, as if that really makes a difference to the reality that is happening virtually ever minute of every day. The way you describe it, I don't have an issue with YOU having guns. However, even if YOU aren't the issue, even if MOST gun owners are law abiding, - there plenty of other armed idiots out there that would leave me no choice but to become one of you, presumably just to stay alive and keep my children alive. What a wonderful world vision you have.

You really haven't addressed why its such a difficult concept to, for the sake of compromise and because it has to be acknowledged that guns are misused and abused every day and Americans, HUMANS, are entitled to freedom from violence, make licensing much more stringent to own a gun, at least as stringent as what we require for 17 year olds in my state to get a drivers license. I haven't proposed anything (not talking about my ideal world but the world we are currently subjected to) that would take away any of YOUR rights whatsoever, if you are as law abiding as you say you are so what do you really have your panties all in a bunch for??

I have a lack of respect for people who are close minded, who always have to be right, who refuse to acknowledge that someone they disagree with may have some valid points, who refuse to see the bigger picture beyond their little world, who close their eyes to what is right in front of them because it brings home some uncomfortable truths. I get that there are many who vehemently disagree with me. I would have no problem sitting down with you and getting to know you as a person, not just someone who has a different world view because unlike you, I acknowledge that while my abhorance of violence is a fundamental part of who I am (and I grew up in a very violent world), someone like you may still have something to teach me and maybe even show me some great reasons to respect you. Even if we have to agree to disagree about certain things. That's the beautiful part of being human- our ability to communicate ideas and learn from other people.

You, however, disdain the person along with the view you can't wrap your brain around. You don't know me any better than I know you, other than through my words. I am strong, have been through hell, am kind, compassionate, empathetic, constantly seeking knowledge and various view points, would kill without hesitation to protect and feed my family if that is what it came to yet feel guilty taking the life of a bug. I would go out of my way to help a stranger in need if I had the means to do so, I have stood up to bullies twice my size, and when it comes to seeing anyone or any animal being abused or mistreated, have absolutely no fear whatsoever standing up to the victimizer. Of course, if he pulled out a gun, I guess that would leave me at a terrible disadvantage wouldn't it?

"How about you take care of your life, and deal with your own fears instead of projecting them on me or taking them out on me?"

Ditto.

Quoting Farmlady09:

Cars kill more people every year than guns. Swimming pools kill more children than any semi-automatic rifles. Sports (football and wrestling in particular) are more lethal than guns for kids. Are you willing to give all of those up? How about all your kitchen knives (you may keep the butter knives if you register them and put your name on a list so we know you have them, and get training and a permit for them). Oh ~ you should also get a million dollar insurance policy so that if you or anyone who happens to touch those butter knives causes injury or death with one they are covered. That's reasonable, right?

Guns are absolutely a tool ~ and as a method of remaining a free person, they are absolutely precious.

If you do not consider 'your' freedom just as precious, that's your choice ~ but you do NOT have any right to determine MY choice. You have NO right to determine where I live.

I don't drink or get drunk. My children are grown and raising their own children (and gee ... even with guns in the home, training on how to use those guns safely, and WITHOUT ridiculous locks and safes that render a gun useless for home defense) and not one of them EVER got shot, narrowly missed getting shot, had a friend shoot them or get shot, etc. They all have guns in their own homes now ~ and none of their children (my grandbabies) have been injured.

See that part highlighted in red? Well, I'm not military. I have taken no oath to defend 'your' rights or anyone elses'. If 'you' would derrive any protection from my guns or my actions under your scenario, it would be by chance ~ not by any deliberate action on my part. I meant what I said. If you are willing to hand over your rights, or vote to take away the rights of others based on your own fear, paranoia, distaste, or just because you got up on the wrong side of bed this morning, you deserve none of the rights you have imo ~ and you don't deserve to have anyone else in this country fight/die to preserve those rights for you. No, I would not take up arms to defend you.

I have no problem with a federal law, applicable in all 50 states that carries a mandatory death penalty for ANY crime where ANY weapon is used. Not just guns. Add in knives, baseball bats, a can of beans, a hammer, a vehicle (especially if dui is involved), etc. Any weapon. If there are witnesses, video, dna, or a confession, I'm all for tossing any appeals as well. People who hurt other people because they are angry, drunk, stoned, medicated, etc. are defective. If we can return defective toasters to the manufacturer, we should be able to do the same with defective humans ~ it's not like there is a shortage of them.

All that being said, I do not believe that treating people worse than criminals for exercising a right is acceptable. If you ~ personally ~ aren't willing to line up everyone who is mentally ill, being treated for mental illness, taking ANY medication that induces/may induce periods of rage, hallucinations, paranoia, etc. ... and make them do everything that a prospective gun owner would, than you are part of the problem.

In your world, I'd rather be a criminal than a law-abiding citizen. I'm very capable of living my life with the freedoms, the rights, AND the responsibilities the Constitution sets out. In your world, those would all disappear. The Constitution is not up for grabs. You can be as angry as you want about that, call good people all the names you want, fantasize about how evil the are (or will be at some point) ... but you are not worthy of sentencing them without just cause. The lack of respect you show for people you do not know, who obey the law, and who have done you no harm is ludicrous. It's based on nothing but your fear. The fact that you are militant about wanting to punish people for not doing things your way makes 'me' wonder about you.

I am a mom and a grandma. I'm a military mom, spouse, daughter, and sister. I've hunted since I was 12 (off and on). I now am retired and have a small sustainable farm. I raise meat and dairy animals. I'm 45 minutes from the nearest farm vet (if they are open). We have coyotes, fox, bears, packs of feral dogs, snakes, and of all things three big cats roaming thanks to a disgruntled ex-wife. We have occasional alligators wander through. I've had neighbors lose an entire flock in one night to feral dogs. I've had raccoons in my chicken coop and flippin 35 pound possums with distemper hissing at me on my porch. We have snakes lounging in the sun and some of them smile.

I have pigs that weigh 600 pounds. I have a few dairy goats that have cost a small fortune but provide us with healthy milk and cheese. I have poultry (chickens, ducks, geese, peafowl, and turkeys). I also have a garden and an orchard, meat rabbits, and pets.

What I ALSO have is a RIGHT to live on this farm that I dreamed of, waited for, and planned and worked my butt off for for over 20 years. Not only that, I have a RIGHT to own the tools that I need to take care of it properly. If you happen to be afraid of some of those tools ~ that is your right ... but you have NO right to rant, rave, and carry on like a broody hen because I happen to just exist on the same planet that you live on. I'm not going to hurt you any more than I'm going to hurt that broody hen, but I have a lot more patience and tolerance for her because SHE at least is doing something useful. I don't know you, I've done nothing to you, but you want to control me, punish me, limit my choices, and take away my rights.

How about you take care of your life, and deal with your own fears instead of projecting them on me or taking them out on me?

Quoting idunno1234:

"And, I 'get' that you are willing to throw away the only (and best) security for a free people to remain free that has EVER been written into a Constitution because you are afraid.

I 'get' that you honestly have NO idea that if that second amendment is gone that EVERY right and freedom you enjoy would also be gone, and that ANY bit of peace and/or security that you are craving so much will be even further out of reach."

Uh huh. Is this really what you tell yourself to justify holding onto your precious tools invented with the sole purpose of killing? Do I need to post a link for the latest statistics on how many people are killed EVERY day just in this country by guns? How many people are injured and maimed? What a supremely odd idea of what makes for a secure nation in your eyes- arming "law-abiding citizens" to the teeth to protect the rest of us yeehaws from the tyranny of our democratically elected government. Right, because you are all law abiding until the day you aren't. It just takes one drunken rage, one stupid accident, one moment of a child's curiosity and a parent's carelessness, one moment of despair and law abiding goes out the window. Every hour of every day this happens multiple times. But yeah sure, you will protect us from tyranny.

I have yet to hear how this is going to happen in practical terms. So please spell it out for me. I'll start by setting the scenario you all seem to crave so much: Obama is a fascist, socialist, communist (heard them all, wish you would all make up your minds) who's sole intent is to destroy this country and hand it over to Muslims (or is it progressives or poor people or liberal something or others?)and he finally succeeds. I have no idea how because he would have to destroy congress and have total control over the military as well as local and state law enforcement agencies but lets say your fantasy plays out. Obama declares martial law, makes all guns illegal, makes all rich people poor and poor people rich, makes schools indoctrinate our innocent children with Muslim teachings at the same managing to get in some Progressive Liberal shit in there too,(although they are theoretically opposed but you all seem to think this is his intent) and says to the rest of the world- walk all over us because I am evil and want to destroy the United States.

Okay, so I'm assuming this is when you will all come in with your weaponry and protect us from his evil tyranny. Exactly how is that going to play out? Please, tell me how making sure citizens are armed is going to protect you from the military? Who's going to protect us unarmed citizens from the likes of all you??

I have also made clear multiple times my awareness of the fantasy of my perfect utopian world versus the reality of the state of the human race as it exists today. Realizing those realities, I laid out a plan, I believe in my first post, that should allow all "law abiding" citizens the right to their beloved guns after going through a rigorous licensing process that is at least as difficult, if not more so, than getting a driver's license. Why you "law abiding" gun lovers don't advocate for this, I don't know. Why you aren't all at the forefront to make sure existing laws are enforced, to insist that anyone with an unlicensed gun should have an automatic prison sentence, that the use of a gun in any crime means an automatic life sentence, that all gun show loop holes need to be closed, that internet trafficking needs to be slammed shut, this is why the majority of people in this country see you as loonies. Having idiots like LaPierre and Ted Nugent acting as the voice of so called responsible gun owners reflects badly on all of you. Although, reading through your posts, a number of you on here, i realize that those loons represent you quite well. However, people like you, like them, only polarize things further. It hurts your "cause".

The inability for "law abiding" gun owning citizens to stand up and say that gun violence is utterly unacceptable and lets see what WE can do, as gun owners, to work for change so that not one more unnecessary life is lost, is what loses me and almost everyone I talk to, including some gun owners who get the reality of today's world. Its all of you that are living in this odd fantasy in order to justify bad behavior when your precious weapons are used in the way they were intended- to kill.

Comparing guns to things that weren't invented with the sole intent to kill is ludicrous and frankly, makes you all sound desperate. Really? Knives and guns were both invented as tools. Both were designed to kill, regardless of 'why' something was being killed.

You have yet to tell me exactly how guns keep you free. I am still waiting for details about how your pathetic weapons will keep you free from the military might, the same military you say you have family members a part of, behind a supposed tyrannical government. I've posted the numbers before (there are FAR more guns in the hands of citizens ~ and far more of them ~ than military members and law enforcement), and that doesn't take into account the Oath Keepers (those who actually remember that they took an oath to defend the Constitution first, and that they have a duty to refuse to obey an unlawful order against the citizens of the United States.

Guns keep 'us' free because as long as we have them we have the means to defend ourselves against unlawful orders. We have the means to equally arm ourselves against a military that ends up with a tyrannical nutcase as CinC. The fact that you pretend NOT to understand that is what is ridiculous.

Do you not see how ridiculous this sounds?? Yes my freedom is precious. But doesn't warrant you stepping up and doing squat to keep it? I call bullshit.

Freedom from violence is a perfectly acceptable and normal freedom to want to have. Agreed, but it isn't a right.

Do you really think I would look to you for protection??? If you aren't a threat, another testosterone fueled gun lover may be. I'm no threat except to those who threaten me, those I love, or my freedom.

Then what will you do, shoot it out between you? Between all of you? We aren't talking about any well armed militias that exist for the good of anybody but the people who live out their macho fantasies pretending that's what they are. So, we are actually talking about a lot of armed people running around creating their own laws. So, those who fought against Britain and won their independence from a tyrannical government were just living out macho fantasies?About all you got right out of that was that there are a lot more today than in 1776 (or, your 'freedom' isn't as precious as you want to try and convince me it is).

If anarchy (the correct word is revolution, whether or not a second civil war sets it off) ensues in your fantasy vision of an evil Obama attempting to destroy this country and people are running around armed to the teeth, who is going to protect me from them?? That's on you at that point. You can either stand up for what you claim is precious or ... not. Right now you still have the right to do that ~ even though you seem intent on eliminating that right and being forced to defend yourself against armed people using your kitchen knife or a handy rock.

Are you really saying that because I don't agree with you I don't deserve the freedom to be secure in my own country? Since when does hating violence and the fact that it continues to be a huge issue in almost every corner of this planet make one weak, fearful or less deserving of freedoms than you? Absolutely ~ not because you don't agree with me, but because you keep spitting on the Constitution and the rights it gives 'you' to a free life. The only freedom you deserve is that which you fight to defend. If all you do to 'fight' is vote, that's fine ~ unless you vote to deprive others of their freedom right along with 'you'. Hating violence isnt' a problem. Being so fearful that you insist on making EVERYone a potential victim is.

I haven't insulted anyone, other than using the term loony because that is honestly how your world view comes across. Then let me return the 'compliment', because your view of the world doesn't exist, has never existed, and will never exist. Mine is based on reality AND the law of this country. If you actually think that is loony, I think you are the one with the skewed vision and reality. I think it's commendable, but equally foolish to try and 'pretend' that reality doesn't exist and put yourself and others in danger to keep that dream alive. Not just foolish, but reprehensible. You have no 'right' to insist others come to harm by catering to your unattainable utopia.

I get that you were raised around guns, that they are an integral part of your life, a natural part of living on a farm but you keep referring to yourself- YOU don't drink alcohol, YOU are law abiding, YOU know and taught your children gun safety, no one YOU know has been shot, as if that really makes a difference to the reality that is happening virtually ever minute of every day. Yippee ~ sorry, but that's the best I can manage knowing that somehow "I" have "your" approval.

The way you describe it, I don't have an issue with YOU having guns. However, even if YOU aren't the issue, even if MOST gun owners are law abiding, - there plenty of other armed idiots out there that would leave me no choice but to become one of you, presumably just to stay alive and keep my children alive. What a wonderful world vision you have. So, in order to not trouble yourself (or actually solve anything) I should give up my guns and do what ... run hide under the bed with you?

I haven't mentioned a WORD about what my world vision is. If I had my way, no city would exist. They are unnatural, unsustainable, and use up resources at a far greater rate than country homes and sustainable lifestyles. They are like rat warrens built for humans, and the humans who live in them and procreate in them live a life with ALL of the same dangers as rats do ... theft, filth, killing, illness, etc. Country rodents generally aren't ill, they don't bother each other much, they make their babies and store food for the winter. It's rare that you find a huge number of rodents sharing their living space in the country ... even when there are huge numbers of rodents.

You really haven't addressed why its such a difficult concept to, for the sake of compromise and because it has to be acknowledged that guns are misused and abused every day and Americans, HUMANS, are entitled to freedom from violence, make licensing much more stringent to own a gun, at least as stringent as what we require for 17 year olds in my state to get a drivers license. Read the second amendment. Driving isn't a right, it's a privilege (which you should understand since you made the point that knives and guns are so different). When you get done reading that, you can explain to me exactly how all of the laws we have about driving, getting licensed, being insured, not driving drunk, etc. have done SQUAT to stop people from driving illegally, driving drunk, speeding, getting in accidents, and killing even MORE innocents than all the guns combined. Take it a step further and explain to me why you think that ANY gun law is going to mean squat to someone who wants to hurt someone ~ whether they already own one OR buy one illegally OR steal one.

Then I'll explain to you, again, that NO law can stop a single person from doing harm. All ANY law can do is to punish someone who does cause harm (provided the drippy heart club members and the dirty lawyers don't muck up the works ... there ought to be laws against them with the same punishment as that of others that cause harm to society).

I haven't proposed anything (not talking about my ideal world but the world we are currently subjected to) that would take away any of YOUR rights whatsoever, if you are as law abiding as you say you are so what do you really have your panties all in a bunch for?? Because you want to cost me a small fortune to do the exact same thing YOU do in a way that is right for ME. Because you want to put my name on some list like I'm a convicted sex offender just for exercising one of my RIGHTS. Because you can sit there and rationalize things in your head to call me loony for dealing with reality when you refuse to.

I have a lack of respect for people who are close minded, who always have to be right, who refuse to acknowledge that someone they disagree with may have some valid points, who refuse to see the bigger picture beyond their little world, who close their eyes to what is right in front of them because it brings home some uncomfortable truths. I take it you haven't looked in the mirror lately? Aside from that, I DO see the bigger picture. I DO see what's right in front of me. I ALSO know the actual history of this country, and most others ~ as well as how many evil men have done more evil because the people they controlled had no means to defend themselves. I see people every day who don't care squat about you OR me, about what EITHER of us wants or thinks, or just the fact that both of us would prefer to die of old age, peacefully, in our own bed if it gets in the way of their drug deal, their taking our money by force, etc. They will do that with or without a gun, but if I have a gun I have the chance to protect myself. You want to take that right away from me, or place ridiculous strictures and limits and added costs onto doing so ... and to hell with the Constitution in your world.

I get that there are many who vehemently disagree with me. I would have no problem sitting down with you and getting to know you as a person, not just someone who has a different world view because unlike you, I acknowledge that while my abhorance of violence is a fundamental part of who I am (and I grew up in a very violent world), someone like you may still have something to teach me and maybe even show me some great reasons to respect you. Even if we have to agree to disagree about certain things. That's the beautiful part of being human- our ability to communicate ideas and learn from other people. I have people at my farm on a regular basis. I teach home canning, gardening, animal husbandry, etc. to anyone who wants to learn. My world is NOT violent or filled with nothing but guns.

You, however, disdain the person along with the view you can't wrap your brain around. Really? Then why do I welcome so many who come here with nothing but a desire to learn? Why do I welcome those who understand nothing of 'my world'? If what you have decided is true about me was really true, I'd be holed up on a mountainside somewhere armed to the teeth and fighting to keep everyone away from me.

You don't know me any better than I know you, other than through my words. I am strong, have been through hell, am kind, compassionate, empathetic, constantly seeking knowledge and various view points, would kill without hesitation to protect and feed my family if that is what it came to yet feel guilty taking the life of a bug. That's only because you haven't seen the spider that thumped out from under my frig a while back .. or the mutant giant cow ant that even a shovel couldn't kill. Can't say that I feel a bit guilty for ending their lives ... although the cute little bunnies and even my pigs I will stop and give thanks for while doing so.

I would go out of my way to help a stranger in need if I had the means to do so, I have stood up to bullies twice my size, and when it comes to seeing anyone or any animal being abused or mistreated, have absolutely no fear whatsoever standing up to the victimizer. Same here. Of course, if he pulled out a gun, I guess that would leave me at a terrible disadvantage wouldn't it? Only if you choose to give someone that advantage. You see, if you showed up at my farm, I could also teach you to shoot, gun safety, and how real gun control works (which means hitting what you aim at).

"How about you take care of your life, and deal with your own fears instead of projecting them on me or taking them out on me?"

Ditto. Sure ~ but I'd still welcome you to my farm as long as you didn't show up with a petition for gun control lol.

Quoting Farmlady09:

Cars kill more people every year than guns. Swimming pools kill more children than any semi-automatic rifles. Sports (football and wrestling in particular) are more lethal than guns for kids. Are you willing to give all of those up? How about all your kitchen knives (you may keep the butter knives if you register them and put your name on a list so we know you have them, and get training and a permit for them). Oh ~ you should also get a million dollar insurance policy so that if you or anyone who happens to touch those butter knives causes injury or death with one they are covered. That's reasonable, right?

Guns are absolutely a tool ~ and as a method of remaining a free person, they are absolutely precious.

If you do not consider 'your' freedom just as precious, that's your choice ~ but you do NOT have any right to determine MY choice. You have NO right to determine where I live.

I don't drink or get drunk. My children are grown and raising their own children (and gee ... even with guns in the home, training on how to use those guns safely, and WITHOUT ridiculous locks and safes that render a gun useless for home defense) and not one of them EVER got shot, narrowly missed getting shot, had a friend shoot them or get shot, etc. They all have guns in their own homes now ~ and none of their children (my grandbabies) have been injured.

See that part highlighted in red? Well, I'm not military. I have taken no oath to defend 'your' rights or anyone elses'. If 'you' would derrive any protection from my guns or my actions under your scenario, it would be by chance ~ not by any deliberate action on my part. I meant what I said. If you are willing to hand over your rights, or vote to take away the rights of others based on your own fear, paranoia, distaste, or just because you got up on the wrong side of bed this morning, you deserve none of the rights you have imo ~ and you don't deserve to have anyone else in this country fight/die to preserve those rights for you. No, I would not take up arms to defend you.

I have no problem with a federal law, applicable in all 50 states that carries a mandatory death penalty for ANY crime where ANY weapon is used. Not just guns. Add in knives, baseball bats, a can of beans, a hammer, a vehicle (especially if dui is involved), etc. Any weapon. If there are witnesses, video, dna, or a confession, I'm all for tossing any appeals as well. People who hurt other people because they are angry, drunk, stoned, medicated, etc. are defective. If we can return defective toasters to the manufacturer, we should be able to do the same with defective humans ~ it's not like there is a shortage of them.

All that being said, I do not believe that treating people worse than criminals for exercising a right is acceptable. If you ~ personally ~ aren't willing to line up everyone who is mentally ill, being treated for mental illness, taking ANY medication that induces/may induce periods of rage, hallucinations, paranoia, etc. ... and make them do everything that a prospective gun owner would, than you are part of the problem.

In your world, I'd rather be a criminal than a law-abiding citizen. I'm very capable of living my life with the freedoms, the rights, AND the responsibilities the Constitution sets out. In your world, those would all disappear. The Constitution is not up for grabs. You can be as angry as you want about that, call good people all the names you want, fantasize about how evil the are (or will be at some point) ... but you are not worthy of sentencing them without just cause. The lack of respect you show for people you do not know, who obey the law, and who have done you no harm is ludicrous. It's based on nothing but your fear. The fact that you are militant about wanting to punish people for not doing things your way makes 'me' wonder about you.

I am a mom and a grandma. I'm a military mom, spouse, daughter, and sister. I've hunted since I was 12 (off and on). I now am retired and have a small sustainable farm. I raise meat and dairy animals. I'm 45 minutes from the nearest farm vet (if they are open). We have coyotes, fox, bears, packs of feral dogs, snakes, and of all things three big cats roaming thanks to a disgruntled ex-wife. We have occasional alligators wander through. I've had neighbors lose an entire flock in one night to feral dogs. I've had raccoons in my chicken coop and flippin 35 pound possums with distemper hissing at me on my porch. We have snakes lounging in the sun and some of them smile.

I have pigs that weigh 600 pounds. I have a few dairy goats that have cost a small fortune but provide us with healthy milk and cheese. I have poultry (chickens, ducks, geese, peafowl, and turkeys). I also have a garden and an orchard, meat rabbits, and pets.

What I ALSO have is a RIGHT to live on this farm that I dreamed of, waited for, and planned and worked my butt off for for over 20 years. Not only that, I have a RIGHT to own the tools that I need to take care of it properly. If you happen to be afraid of some of those tools ~ that is your right ... but you have NO right to rant, rave, and carry on like a broody hen because I happen to just exist on the same planet that you live on. I'm not going to hurt you any more than I'm going to hurt that broody hen, but I have a lot more patience and tolerance for her because SHE at least is doing something useful. I don't know you, I've done nothing to you, but you want to control me, punish me, limit my choices, and take away my rights.

How about you take care of your life, and deal with your own fears instead of projecting them on me or taking them out on me?

Wow. Okay, I have to respect you for trying. While we will still have to agree to disagree, it has definitely been interesting, my guess is we both have some things we could teach each other, and I have to tell you, I respect you working hard for and achieving your dream of doing what brings you joy on your little piece of farming paradise. I'm not much of a city person myself, live on 36 acres in the wilds of NJ. Much prefer the peace and beauty, rather than noise and concrete.

Another asshole just tried a mass stabbing, remember? People were hurt but no one killed. Obviously would have been a much different story if he had used firearms. Guns were invented to be more efficient at killing than knives and their ONLY purpose is to kill. Knives I use mostly to chop food. None of the knives in my house were bought with the sole intent to kill. If I was forced to use one that way, I would,but that is certainly not why i have them in my kitchen.

On another thread yesterday, an anon said that they would support violent revolution against socialism (I'm assuming she was talking about the direction she and so many others think Obama is going). This is what scares me and pisses me off. I don't have an issue with people who don't like the course Obama is taking because that is certainly anyone's prerogative and the ability to speak critically about our politicians is one of those precious freedoms born from blood and wisdom. But revolution implies the majority of a population wants to overthrow a tyrannical government. We have a democratically elected president who is on his last term as well as a democratically elected Congress.

Yes, the 2nd amendment was put to paper at a very different time, a very different world and different weapons. I don't care what you say, a bunch of armed Americans wrecking havoc, each with their own agenda, their own issues, their own baggage is NOT what anyone envisioned several centuries ago. The American military in the 18th century, even the British military at that time have no compare to what is in place now. You think oaths would protect you, yet presidents, including the one in office who scares you so much took an oath too, remember? Do you have any nukes in your private arsenal? Tanks? How about a fighter jet? Access to chemical and biological chemicals? And do you really envision that all Obama Haters think as you do? That this is a cohesive movement? Revolution implies cohesiveness. Otherwise, at best you have a civil war. At worse, anarchy.

Personally I'm still sick with disgust and anger at what the previous administration did when leading so many to their death's and ruined lives , invading another country, which we are still enmeshed in, based on a lie, enraging more people worldwide and leading our country down the path to financial ruin but I didn't think Bush was evil, just misguided and surrounded by egotistical idiots. But talk of violent revolution, what I call anarchy and you somehow in YOUR utopian fantasy call revolution, is unacceptable, especially when we have a democratically elected president. I had violent thoughts against Bush and what his administration did to this country, I have violent thoughts against extremists, I have violent thoughts against abusers and victimizers and all cruel, close minded, intolerant people of the world. I am not a violent person, simply being human, but if I could wave a magic wand....... However, thinking those thoughts has to do with my frustration, not me actually thinking that violent overthrow of a democratically elected president is a cool idea.

When you say you don't think any more costly and time consuming restrictions should be placed on your constitutional right to bear arms, you seem to be saying that the sacrifice of lives daily in this country due to firearms are the price to pay for your convenience. Sorry, that really pisses me off, especially if you and others who feel so strongly about gun ownership don't do everything in your power to make sure those daily tragedies stop, or at least slow to a crawl. THAT'S what pisses a lot of people off, including the many gun owners out there who hate having the NRA as their mouthpiece. If you could still have your guns in spite of the inconveniences knowing that lives were saved because of those inconveniences, how is that unacceptable to you?

Once again, I have made clear the difference what is admittedly my utopian fantasy violent free world and what I am aware the reality is, which is why I know that America will continue to be a well armed population at least throughout my lifetime, probably way beyond. I concede to that reality but that doesn't mean that we should all just throw up our hands and resign ourselves to dozens of lives lost every day to gun violence because, well, that's just the price we pay for the privilege of easy access to gun ownership. I am extremely aware of my utopian ideals vs reality of the human race as it exists now. What gets me is that you don't see that about yourself. You see revolution if anyone comes to take your weapons, although that would be the only thing you would have in common with your fellow "revolutionaries", because beyond wanting to hold onto your weapons, what else do you have in common with these millions of individuals?? How can you not see how futile your guns would be if a dictator was able to overthrow our government and dictate? How can you not see how your revolution would devolve quickly to anarchy and unarmed citizens being victimized by those who think they should run things they way they want to be run and CAN, because they are armed. People wouldn't be fighting the government, they would be fighting each other. Anarchy.

Thanks for taking the time Farmlady. Try not to paint me in a corner and I will try to do the same. People are much, much more complicated than that. We will never agree on this issue but who cares, really? I will always abhor living in a testosterone fueled destructive world but that doesn't mean that I think I know everything. I will always have an open mind and would hope you do the same. Neither of us is young but we both still have a lot to learn, since learning is a life long process. I also feel as if I have a few things to teach people as well :)

Quoting idunno1234:

Comparing guns to things that weren't invented with the sole intent to kill is ludicrous and frankly, makes you all sound desperate. Really? Knives and guns were both invented as tools. Both were designed to kill, regardless of 'why' something was being killed.

You have yet to tell me exactly how guns keep you free. I am still waiting for details about how your pathetic weapons will keep you free from the military might, the same military you say you have family members a part of, behind a supposed tyrannical government. I've posted the numbers before (there are FAR more guns in the hands of citizens ~ and far more of them ~ than military members and law enforcement), and that doesn't take into account the Oath Keepers (those who actually remember that they took an oath to defend the Constitution first, and that they have a duty to refuse to obey an unlawful order against the citizens of the United States.

Guns keep 'us' free because as long as we have them we have the means to defend ourselves against unlawful orders. We have the means to equally arm ourselves against a military that ends up with a tyrannical nutcase as CinC. The fact that you pretend NOT to understand that is what is ridiculous.

Do you not see how ridiculous this sounds?? Yes my freedom is precious. But doesn't warrant you stepping up and doing squat to keep it? I call bullshit.

Freedom from violence is a perfectly acceptable and normal freedom to want to have. Agreed, but it isn't a right.

Do you really think I would look to you for protection??? If you aren't a threat, another testosterone fueled gun lover may be. I'm no threat except to those who threaten me, those I love, or my freedom.

Then what will you do, shoot it out between you? Between all of you? We aren't talking about any well armed militias that exist for the good of anybody but the people who live out their macho fantasies pretending that's what they are. So, we are actually talking about a lot of armed people running around creating their own laws. So, those who fought against Britain and won their independence from a tyrannical government were just living out macho fantasies?About all you got right out of that was that there are a lot more today than in 1776 (or, your 'freedom' isn't as precious as you want to try and convince me it is).

If anarchy (the correct word is revolution, whether or not a second civil war sets it off) ensues in your fantasy vision of an evil Obama attempting to destroy this country and people are running around armed to the teeth, who is going to protect me from them?? That's on you at that point. You can either stand up for what you claim is precious or ... not. Right now you still have the right to do that ~ even though you seem intent on eliminating that right and being forced to defend yourself against armed people using your kitchen knife or a handy rock.

Are you really saying that because I don't agree with you I don't deserve the freedom to be secure in my own country? Since when does hating violence and the fact that it continues to be a huge issue in almost every corner of this planet make one weak, fearful or less deserving of freedoms than you? Absolutely ~ not because you don't agree with me, but because you keep spitting on the Constitution and the rights it gives 'you' to a free life. The only freedom you deserve is that which you fight to defend. If all you do to 'fight' is vote, that's fine ~ unless you vote to deprive others of their freedom right along with 'you'. Hating violence isnt' a problem. Being so fearful that you insist on making EVERYone a potential victim is.

I haven't insulted anyone, other than using the term loony because that is honestly how your world view comes across. Then let me return the 'compliment', because your view of the world doesn't exist, has never existed, and will never exist. Mine is based on reality AND the law of this country. If you actually think that is loony, I think you are the one with the skewed vision and reality. I think it's commendable, but equally foolish to try and 'pretend' that reality doesn't exist and put yourself and others in danger to keep that dream alive. Not just foolish, but reprehensible. You have no 'right' to insist others come to harm by catering to your unattainable utopia.

I get that you were raised around guns, that they are an integral part of your life, a natural part of living on a farm but you keep referring to yourself- YOU don't drink alcohol, YOU are law abiding, YOU know and taught your children gun safety, no one YOU know has been shot, as if that really makes a difference to the reality that is happening virtually ever minute of every day. Yippee ~ sorry, but that's the best I can manage knowing that somehow "I" have "your" approval.

The way you describe it, I don't have an issue with YOU having guns. However, even if YOU aren't the issue, even if MOST gun owners are law abiding, - there plenty of other armed idiots out there that would leave me no choice but to become one of you, presumably just to stay alive and keep my children alive. What a wonderful world vision you have. So, in order to not trouble yourself (or actually solve anything) I should give up my guns and do what ... run hide under the bed with you?

I haven't mentioned a WORD about what my world vision is. If I had my way, no city would exist. They are unnatural, unsustainable, and use up resources at a far greater rate than country homes and sustainable lifestyles. They are like rat warrens built for humans, and the humans who live in them and procreate in them live a life with ALL of the same dangers as rats do ... theft, filth, killing, illness, etc. Country rodents generally aren't ill, they don't bother each other much, they make their babies and store food for the winter. It's rare that you find a huge number of rodents sharing their living space in the country ... even when there are huge numbers of rodents.

You really haven't addressed why its such a difficult concept to, for the sake of compromise and because it has to be acknowledged that guns are misused and abused every day and Americans, HUMANS, are entitled to freedom from violence, make licensing much more stringent to own a gun, at least as stringent as what we require for 17 year olds in my state to get a drivers license. Read the second amendment. Driving isn't a right, it's a privilege (which you should understand since you made the point that knives and guns are so different). When you get done reading that, you can explain to me exactly how all of the laws we have about driving, getting licensed, being insured, not driving drunk, etc. have done SQUAT to stop people from driving illegally, driving drunk, speeding, getting in accidents, and killing even MORE innocents than all the guns combined. Take it a step further and explain to me why you think that ANY gun law is going to mean squat to someone who wants to hurt someone ~ whether they already own one OR buy one illegally OR steal one.

Then I'll explain to you, again, that NO law can stop a single person from doing harm. All ANY law can do is to punish someone who does cause harm (provided the drippy heart club members and the dirty lawyers don't muck up the works ... there ought to be laws against them with the same punishment as that of others that cause harm to society).

I haven't proposed anything (not talking about my ideal world but the world we are currently subjected to) that would take away any of YOUR rights whatsoever, if you are as law abiding as you say you are so what do you really have your panties all in a bunch for?? Because you want to cost me a small fortune to do the exact same thing YOU do in a way that is right for ME. Because you want to put my name on some list like I'm a convicted sex offender just for exercising one of my RIGHTS. Because you can sit there and rationalize things in your head to call me loony for dealing with reality when you refuse to.

I have a lack of respect for people who are close minded, who always have to be right, who refuse to acknowledge that someone they disagree with may have some valid points, who refuse to see the bigger picture beyond their little world, who close their eyes to what is right in front of them because it brings home some uncomfortable truths. I take it you haven't looked in the mirror lately? Aside from that, I DO see the bigger picture. I DO see what's right in front of me. I ALSO know the actual history of this country, and most others ~ as well as how many evil men have done more evil because the people they controlled had no means to defend themselves. I see people every day who don't care squat about you OR me, about what EITHER of us wants or thinks, or just the fact that both of us would prefer to die of old age, peacefully, in our own bed if it gets in the way of their drug deal, their taking our money by force, etc. They will do that with or without a gun, but if I have a gun I have the chance to protect myself. You want to take that right away from me, or place ridiculous strictures and limits and added costs onto doing so ... and to hell with the Constitution in your world.

I get that there are many who vehemently disagree with me. I would have no problem sitting down with you and getting to know you as a person, not just someone who has a different world view because unlike you, I acknowledge that while my abhorance of violence is a fundamental part of who I am (and I grew up in a very violent world), someone like you may still have something to teach me and maybe even show me some great reasons to respect you. Even if we have to agree to disagree about certain things. That's the beautiful part of being human- our ability to communicate ideas and learn from other people. I have people at my farm on a regular basis. I teach home canning, gardening, animal husbandry, etc. to anyone who wants to learn. My world is NOT violent or filled with nothing but guns.

You, however, disdain the person along with the view you can't wrap your brain around. Really? Then why do I welcome so many who come here with nothing but a desire to learn? Why do I welcome those who understand nothing of 'my world'? If what you have decided is true about me was really true, I'd be holed up on a mountainside somewhere armed to the teeth and fighting to keep everyone away from me.

You don't know me any better than I know you, other than through my words. I am strong, have been through hell, am kind, compassionate, empathetic, constantly seeking knowledge and various view points, would kill without hesitation to protect and feed my family if that is what it came to yet feel guilty taking the life of a bug. That's only because you haven't seen the spider that thumped out from under my frig a while back .. or the mutant giant cow ant that even a shovel couldn't kill. Can't say that I feel a bit guilty for ending their lives ... although the cute little bunnies and even my pigs I will stop and give thanks for while doing so.

I would go out of my way to help a stranger in need if I had the means to do so, I have stood up to bullies twice my size, and when it comes to seeing anyone or any animal being abused or mistreated, have absolutely no fear whatsoever standing up to the victimizer. Same here. Of course, if he pulled out a gun, I guess that would leave me at a terrible disadvantage wouldn't it? Only if you choose to give someone that advantage. You see, if you showed up at my farm, I could also teach you to shoot, gun safety, and how real gun control works (which means hitting what you aim at).

"How about you take care of your life, and deal with your own fears instead of projecting them on me or taking them out on me?"

Ditto. Sure ~ but I'd still welcome you to my farm as long as you didn't show up with a petition for gun control lol.

Quoting Farmlady09:

Cars kill more people every year than guns. Swimming pools kill more children than any semi-automatic rifles. Sports (football and wrestling in particular) are more lethal than guns for kids. Are you willing to give all of those up? How about all your kitchen knives (you may keep the butter knives if you register them and put your name on a list so we know you have them, and get training and a permit for them). Oh ~ you should also get a million dollar insurance policy so that if you or anyone who happens to touch those butter knives causes injury or death with one they are covered. That's reasonable, right?

Guns are absolutely a tool ~ and as a method of remaining a free person, they are absolutely precious.

If you do not consider 'your' freedom just as precious, that's your choice ~ but you do NOT have any right to determine MY choice. You have NO right to determine where I live.

I don't drink or get drunk. My children are grown and raising their own children (and gee ... even with guns in the home, training on how to use those guns safely, and WITHOUT ridiculous locks and safes that render a gun useless for home defense) and not one of them EVER got shot, narrowly missed getting shot, had a friend shoot them or get shot, etc. They all have guns in their own homes now ~ and none of their children (my grandbabies) have been injured.

See that part highlighted in red? Well, I'm not military. I have taken no oath to defend 'your' rights or anyone elses'. If 'you' would derrive any protection from my guns or my actions under your scenario, it would be by chance ~ not by any deliberate action on my part. I meant what I said. If you are willing to hand over your rights, or vote to take away the rights of others based on your own fear, paranoia, distaste, or just because you got up on the wrong side of bed this morning, you deserve none of the rights you have imo ~ and you don't deserve to have anyone else in this country fight/die to preserve those rights for you. No, I would not take up arms to defend you.

I have no problem with a federal law, applicable in all 50 states that carries a mandatory death penalty for ANY crime where ANY weapon is used. Not just guns. Add in knives, baseball bats, a can of beans, a hammer, a vehicle (especially if dui is involved), etc. Any weapon. If there are witnesses, video, dna, or a confession, I'm all for tossing any appeals as well. People who hurt other people because they are angry, drunk, stoned, medicated, etc. are defective. If we can return defective toasters to the manufacturer, we should be able to do the same with defective humans ~ it's not like there is a shortage of them.

All that being said, I do not believe that treating people worse than criminals for exercising a right is acceptable. If you ~ personally ~ aren't willing to line up everyone who is mentally ill, being treated for mental illness, taking ANY medication that induces/may induce periods of rage, hallucinations, paranoia, etc. ... and make them do everything that a prospective gun owner would, than you are part of the problem.

In your world, I'd rather be a criminal than a law-abiding citizen. I'm very capable of living my life with the freedoms, the rights, AND the responsibilities the Constitution sets out. In your world, those would all disappear. The Constitution is not up for grabs. You can be as angry as you want about that, call good people all the names you want, fantasize about how evil the are (or will be at some point) ... but you are not worthy of sentencing them without just cause. The lack of respect you show for people you do not know, who obey the law, and who have done you no harm is ludicrous. It's based on nothing but your fear. The fact that you are militant about wanting to punish people for not doing things your way makes 'me' wonder about you.

I am a mom and a grandma. I'm a military mom, spouse, daughter, and sister. I've hunted since I was 12 (off and on). I now am retired and have a small sustainable farm. I raise meat and dairy animals. I'm 45 minutes from the nearest farm vet (if they are open). We have coyotes, fox, bears, packs of feral dogs, snakes, and of all things three big cats roaming thanks to a disgruntled ex-wife. We have occasional alligators wander through. I've had neighbors lose an entire flock in one night to feral dogs. I've had raccoons in my chicken coop and flippin 35 pound possums with distemper hissing at me on my porch. We have snakes lounging in the sun and some of them smile.

I have pigs that weigh 600 pounds. I have a few dairy goats that have cost a small fortune but provide us with healthy milk and cheese. I have poultry (chickens, ducks, geese, peafowl, and turkeys). I also have a garden and an orchard, meat rabbits, and pets.

What I ALSO have is a RIGHT to live on this farm that I dreamed of, waited for, and planned and worked my butt off for for over 20 years. Not only that, I have a RIGHT to own the tools that I need to take care of it properly. If you happen to be afraid of some of those tools ~ that is your right ... but you have NO right to rant, rave, and carry on like a broody hen because I happen to just exist on the same planet that you live on. I'm not going to hurt you any more than I'm going to hurt that broody hen, but I have a lot more patience and tolerance for her because SHE at least is doing something useful. I don't know you, I've done nothing to you, but you want to control me, punish me, limit my choices, and take away my rights.

How about you take care of your life, and deal with your own fears instead of projecting them on me or taking them out on me?

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