This cannot be correct, because each coupling involves one man and one woman, regardless of their identity. So the average should be the same for each sex.

You're assuming that each case of "sexual partnering" is a case of one man and one woman. That's probably the most common type of sexual encounter, but it certainly isn't the only one.

The study he linked only included statistics for heterosexuals, but threesomes would affect the 1:1 ratio.[1]

I think I found the problem with Gnu's math. In his example of 5 women, 5 men, each man sleeps with the same woman and the other 4 women remain virgins. He stated that the average woman has had 1 sexual partner, but while this may be mathematically correct, logically it is flawed. A logical person would instead throw out the 1 extreme anomaly and conclude that the average woman is a virgin.

However, in a reversed situation where 4 of the woman had had sex with each of the men, and only one woman had remained a virgin, it would be again logical to throw out the 1 anomaly and conclude that the average woman had had 5 sexual partners.

I read the study he linked, and 92% of the respondents were not virgins. It would be logical to conclude that the average person is not a virgin, and then give an average number of sexual partners among those sexually active respondents.

A lot of activity on a thread that's supposedly in the Bottomless Pit of the Dead Zone. Moderators, just because you may find a topic offensive or disagree with it, please don't impose your personal censorship on us by moving it here to discourage discussion.

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"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Keep your hat on, fam. Honestly, the whole reason that I lost my virginity at a pretty young age was that I had friends that were more advanced. I had no idea how to approach a girl before I was being put in a position where I was asked if I wanted to "hit it right quick." There wasn't no skill in that. And, to this day, when I look back at the way I used to be as a teenager, and even as a young adult, I'm always amazed by the fact that I still test clean if I'm tested for STIs. I feel like it's either a miracle or an indictment of the whole testing system.

Also, later in life, I learned a thing or two about a thing or two so let me just say:

Threesomes are mostly bullshit unless you talk everything out first. A lot of people like the idea of double teaming their partner but are uncomfortable when they're actually in a sexual situation with a person of the same gender and shit is on and popping. And a lot of people love the idea of seeing their partner with another person and think it's the hottest thing in the world until it actually goes down and they get crazy jealous. More specifically, there are dudes, and now I'm getting closer to home, that like the idea of seeing their girl with a black man but don't want to really grapple with the fact that part of the reason they find that whole thing so compelling is that they're kind of attracted to black men. And that shit is awkward for everyone involved. I've got some friends that got involved as some couple's third only to have dudes try to suck them off as part of some cuckold shit....apparently it's supposed to be about furthering the humiliation of sharing their significant other but I just can't see it like that.

Keep your hat on, fam. Honestly, the whole reason that I lost my virginity at a pretty young age was that I had friends that were more advanced. I had no idea how to approach a girl before I was being put in a position where I was asked if I wanted to "hit it right quick." There wasn't no skill in that. And, to this day, when I look back at the way I used to be as a teenager, and even as a young adult, I'm always amazed by the fact that I still test clean if I'm tested for STIs. I feel like it's either a miracle or an indictment of the whole testing system.

I meant I wasn't going to argue about vaginal penetration being the qualifier for sex...and I heard cervical cancer is spread by males anyways...

I've had more threesomes than I can remember. I would never let her have sex with another guy, but my girlfriend is a little bi-curious as I think many girls are (much more so than men), so we occasionally like to find another girl to bring home to play with us.

I agree that you should set some ground rules and make your expectations known, but if you've done that, a threesome is an amazing experience.

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"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

When asked about the number of opposite sex partners they had had altogether in their life so far, men reported a mean of 9.3 female sexual partners, while women reported a lower number, a mean of 4.7 male sexual partners.

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This cannot be correct, because each coupling involves one man and one woman, regardless of their identity. So the average should be the same for each sex.

You're assuming that each case of "sexual partnering" is a case of one man and one woman. That's probably the most common type of sexual encounter, but it certainly isn't the only one.

That doesn't make any difference to the figures, PD. If Woman A sleeps with Man A, and also with Man B, that counts as two partners for the woman, one partner each for the two men. Those totals remain the same whether the sex acts were consecutive or simultaneous.

In his example of 5 women, 5 men, each man sleeps with the same woman and the other 4 women remain virgins. He stated that the average woman has had 1 sexual partner, but while this may be mathematically correct, logically it is flawed.

It's both mathetically and logically correct.

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A logical person would instead throw out the 1 extreme anomaly and conclude that the average woman is a virgin.

We could indeed do that, but if we throw out the anomaly, we also have to throw out her figures from the the totals of the men who had sex with her (and we need to remove one of the men as well, to keep the populations of men and women equal). In which case, the figures would show that the average man was a virgin as well. Thus demonstrating again that the male average always equals the women's average.

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However, in a reversed situation where 4 of the woman had had sex with each of the men, and only one woman had remained a virgin, it would be again logical to throw out the 1 anomaly and conclude that the average woman had had 5 sexual partners.

No; as I said above, if you're going to throw out the anomalous woman, you have to throw out one of the men as well, otherwise the populations of men and women are unequal. If you do that, then the average becomes four for each gender. Equal again.

e.g. there is a population of five men and five women; four of the women remain virgins, the fifth couples with each of the five men. The average number of couplings per gender is one, for men and women.

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In his example of 5 women, 5 men, each man sleeps with the same woman and the other 4 women remain virgins. He stated that the average woman has had 1 sexual partner, but while this may be mathematically correct, logically it is flawed.

It's both mathetically and logically correct.

That sure seems to be what you're saying.

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"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Threesomes, trains, multiples. Damn, I feel so boring and old-- the thought of an orgy just makes me tired. I may have to cancel my Wanton and Sinful Devil Worshipping Atheist card due to lack of use. Anyone want my bonus points?

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When all of Cinderella's finery changed back at midnight, why didn't the shoes disappear? What's up with that?

e.g. there is a population of five men and five women; four of the women remain virgins, the fifth couples with each of the five men. The average number of couplings per gender is one, for men and women.

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In his example of 5 women, 5 men, each man sleeps with the same woman and the other 4 women remain virgins. He stated that the average woman has had 1 sexual partner, but while this may be mathematically correct, logically it is flawed.

It's both mathetically and logically correct.

That sure seems to be what you're saying.

Joe, that is a hypothetical example; I'm not claiming those numbers are correct in the real world. My claim isn't about the actual average number of sexual partners, but that the average number, whatever it is, must be the same for both genders.

To be more precise; in a closed population, where men and women don't have sex with people outside that population, the average number of partners must be the same for both genders.

So i gave as an example a closed population of 5 men and 5 women:

x ox ox ox ox o

If you draw lines between the x's and o's to represent sexual couplings, it doesn't matter how many you draw or in what combinations, the average number for each gender will be identical in each case. (e.g. Azdgari's example, which produced an average of 2 for each gender).

In the real world, the global population is closed, therefore this logic applies. The global average must be the same for men and women.

A thought experiment; imagine one could simultaneously ask every woman on earth how many sexual partners they have had. Assume also that the answers are honest and accurate. Let's say that the average turns out to be 6.64082 partners per woman.

I'm claiming that there is no need to then ask all the men the same question; the average for them must also be 6.64082. It simply cannot be different. It's the same logic using 7 billion x's and o's as it is with 10.

Therefore, any local or partial surveys which find that men have more sexual partners than women must be faulty in some way; either a sampling error or dishonest responses.

Therefore, any local or partial surveys which find that men have more sexual partners than women must be faulty in some way; either a sampling error or dishonest responses.

Unless homosexual pairings are also included.

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An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

Therefore, any local or partial surveys which find that men have more sexual partners than women must be faulty in some way; either a sampling error or dishonest responses.

Unless homosexual pairings are also included.

Sure. My logic only applies to heterosexual relations; it doesn't apply to gays and lesbians because those populations are separate and don't interact - so the average number of partners for gays and lesbians might well be different.

Note that the survey I originally criticized asks only about opposite-sex partners.

I just got around to really reading the last week or so on this thread, and I have to say I’m flabbergasted.

So, the best overview of female sexuality that you can come up with is “boys like sex, girls not so much?”

Really gentlemen? Really?

Since we have already clearly digressed from the original (disturbing) op, let me clue you in to a little something that I assume most men are at least aware of.

Female sexuality is HUGE. It is multifaceted, and complex, and nuanced. Female sexuality is like art. Each woman is unique, as each artist is unique, Most women, (unlike most men) don’t just jump into sex, unless there is already some strong inspiration to do so. For some of us, some of the time, we are just ready to go. For most of us, most of the time, inspiration takes time. It takes sensory and emotional input. And for each of us, the unique combination of input is different. For some, the emotional overrides the sensory. For others, certain sights or smells or motions or words or touches, in the right combination, are the key.

And like art, female sexuality grows and becomes more complex with time and practice. There is much dispute (in the world of science and psychology and sociology) about the female sexual peak, but I am in the camp that believes that women in their 30’s are at the peak of their sexuality. I see it in (and talk about it with) many of my friends in their 30’s. And I certainly lived through it myself in my 30’s. For many of us, at that time in our lives, those little, seconds-long, localized orgasms of our (late?) teens and twenties (if we were lucky enough to have them back then) have evolved into enormous, full body events that can ebb and fall for 2, 5, 10 minutes. Or even longer. If we are lucky. Each of us is so different. And each sexual encounter is different from the one before. What inspired us last weekend might not work this evening.

I am old enough that I remember the old “clitoral simulation” vs “g spot” debate. Women fell into different camps, and vehemently argued in favor of one or another. Some of us spent our early sexual years searching for this g spot that others were talking about, convinced that it was a single, elusive place inside of us, that others had found in themselves, but which we were unable to locate. But the women who claimed to have found the g spot, often described it so differently from other women who claimed to have found it, led many to believe it was a myth. But by the time I hit my 30’s, something really different started to happen. For me, it wasn’t a spot. It was a region. A huge region that had seemed to not exist previously. Huge.

As recently as the early 1990’s, the actual size of the internal clitoris was finally “discovered.” And it wasn’t until 3 years ago that science got around to creating a 3D image of the internal clitoris. There is so much that we don’t even know yet. There is so much that we don’t even have the vocabulary to discuss and explore.

So gentlemen. Stop knocking on doors hoping to get laid. Tongue kiss, squeeze left nipple, penetrate, might be good enough for you. But it is not good enough for us. Be art aficionados. Be muses. And don’t expect Miro to be da Vinci or Cezanne or Rivera. Each of us is really different. And for us, each sexual encounter has the potential to be a great piece of art, unique from any that has ever existed before. Or perhaps, a variation on a theme which we are currently exploring. Communicate. Look for cues. And stop expecting your best sex ever to come from a 17 year old. And do not, for a minute, treat a 35 year old the way you treated a 17 year old when you were 17. Your sexuality may not have evolved much over the years. But hers has.

Why do so many men behave sexually as if age 17 is the beginning and the end of everything? Who knows as much about their bodies and minds and emotions at 17 as at 27, 37, or 47? As far as I am concerned, things have only gotten better as I have gotten older.

And the other thing is, men seem to be into counting things; numbers of partners, numbers of encounters, numbers of orgasms. Is it really so cut and dried for men that one always equals one equals one? Is it true that for men there is no such thing as bad sex? It is not really that mechanical, is it?

As a female of a mature age, one that is very good is far superior to five that are mediocre. (No matter how many Asian girls are involved.)

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When all of Cinderella's finery changed back at midnight, why didn't the shoes disappear? What's up with that?

You know, to me, Quesi's post seems to imply (I'd go so far as to say infer) that men aren't as "complex" as women when it comes to sex, based on nothing but stereotypes. The stereotypical idiot who can only think about sex 24/7 and keeps a scoreboard is a myth.If you want to claim that the totality or the majority of men and/or women act in a certain way, you literally have nothing to go on. No study into that matter will account for either gender lying about their sexual encounters (given social conditioning, I believe men would be prone to exaggerate, whereas women would be prone to the opposite) or even lying about themselves (intentionally or otherwise).

There is much dispute (in the world of science and psychology and sociology) about the female sexual peak, but I am in the camp that believes that women in their 30’s are at the peak of their sexuality.

And the other thing is, men seem to be into counting things; numbers of partners, numbers of encounters, numbers of orgasms.

Well, Quesi introduced the idea of a peak; and I'm not sure what she means by that; so some kind of quantification would be welcome.

There seem to be different kinds of sexual prime; it can be considered in terms of fertility, emotional connexion and physical pleasure.

The fertility scale is well-defined; a man's sperm is healthiest when he's 18; a woman has to contribute not only a healthy egg, but a healthy body in which to grow it. So a woman is considered most fertile at 24.

Learning about sex as an emotional connexion should apply equally to both sexes. Why not?

As regards physical pleasure, I'm not sure I agree with Quesi's analysis; I understand that female sexuality is more complex than men's, but I don't see why it takes a decade or more for you to optimize the process.

On the other hand, the average man reaches orgasm in four minutes of intercourse; the average woman, eleven minutes. Maybe that has something to do with it?

Why do so many men behave sexually as if age 17 is the beginning and the end of everything? Who knows as much about their bodies and minds and emotions at 17 as at 27, 37, or 47? As far as I am concerned, things have only gotten better as I have gotten older.

And the other thing is, men seem to be into counting things; numbers of partners, numbers of encounters, numbers of orgasms. Is it really so cut and dried for men that one always equals one equals one? Is it true that for men there is no such thing as bad sex? It is not really that mechanical, is it?

As a female of a mature age, one that is very good is far superior to five that are mediocre. (No matter how many Asian girls are involved.)

I agree. The think that also ticks the bejesus out of me was expectation of losing your virginity before 20! Seriously! This is not a sport and no one is a loser for being a virgin over 20! Also, everything Quesi said is right on! It's so unbelievable that Joey thinks "Men want such, girls not so much." I think, unless i'm wrong, it's more like this; Some boys thinks sex is a sport, girls sees sex as something bit more, some adult men thinks sex is better at younger age (Me excluded) adult women sees sex as something a bit more.

« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 06:50:27 PM by Timtheskeptic »

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Me:What are you looking at Eminem?Brother: Nothing, Harry Potter.

I love to read books, just not your Bible. i support gay rights and women's rights. Why? Because i'm tired of the hate, stupidity, and your desire to control us all and make up lies.

I guess according to Quesi I'm a strange woman. No offense Quesi but it seems like a lot of your recent post are coming off as all inclusive to the inner workings of women but you couldn't be further off IMO. Maybe I'm not the average women and/or some kinda freak who doesn't experience being a women in the same way every other women does. IDK but when you state things in such a matter of fact way it seems though, intentionally or not, you are implying that any women who doesn't feel this way is the exception. It's not just this thread but the pedophilia thread too. I'm not done reading it yet, I'm about 1/2 way through so I hope you changed your stance on a few things but if not I will address those there.

Any ways. Not all women's sexuality is some complicated puzzle that has to be solved. Not all women are sexual artist who paint their masterpieces in bed. It seems like according to you I've allowed men and society to brainwash me in to some unhealthy version of what sex should mean to me and/or what I find sexy. But I don't think that's the case.

Sex is a means to an end. When I wanted a baby I had more sex. Not because I was aroused but because my goal was to procreate. There was nothing extraordinarily romantic, artistic, beautiful, or loving about it. It was more "Wham bam thankyou mam." I actually felt more like a teller at an ATM than a lover. After two years of this method I quit trying. Ironically enough my child was eventually conceived on Valentines Day in a more romantic atmosphere.

But to be honest, even that day was an exception to the rule. I don't need to have sex, I actually have a rather low sex drive. So when I am aroused I don't waste time with foreplay, or sending signals, or whatever most other women appear to do. I pretty much just make my intentions be known, offer sex, and if my body so desires get off. There's nothing magical about it. There's no extra learnin' I need a man to do. No special training. I don't need a man to have a 4 year degree in women's sexual pleasure to get me off.

As I said I see sex as a means to an end. Sometimes that end is an orgasm and sometimes that end is a procreation. Occasionally that end is being selfless and offering myself to my partner. But very rarely is it an emotional sexual masterpiece.

Maybe I'm doing it wrong. Maybe I've not hit my "peak" yet. Or maybe I really am just the lone women who doesn't stand up to the Quesi 101 lesson to men. But for the record let it be known men, that not all women are that complicated. IDK how many other women out there share the same experience as me because I don't often discuss such things, but I just couldn't sit back and not offer an alternative womanly prospective.

To be honest I'm more like the stereotypical female mentioned in this thread by men than I am the woman Quesi portrays. But I'm not ashamed of that. I'm very well aware of my emotional disconnect to sex, low sex drive, and the only "peak" I ever hit was when my biological clock started ticking.[1]

Any ways, I'm sorry for my blunt tone.. I honestly have taken offense to the way women have been portrayed here. It comes off as insulting to anyone who doesn't fit the mold. And I feel like it sends the wrong message to men, who now are trying to figure out how to speak Venetian.

Moral of the story is men and women need to communicate their sexual preferences, needs, desires, etc to their partners. It doesn't really matter what yours are unless your partner is incapable of accepting you for who you are. So if your a woman who's not like me kudos to you, but if you need your man to be more educated about your g-spot or clitoris needs tell him. Don't expect him to be able to speak Venetian with out offering him the copy of your programming guide.

As regards physical pleasure, I'm not sure I agree with Quesi's analysis; I understand that female sexuality is more complex than men's, but I don't see why it takes a decade or more for you to optimize the process.

On the other hand, the average man reaches orgasm in four minutes of intercourse; the average woman, eleven minutes. Maybe that has something to do with it?

It's not all the complex from where I'm sitting. I'm 27 years old and if I have another decade left to figure it out then I will prob lose interest. I've got all the children I want, and 4 minutes is okay for me 75% of the time and when it's not I'm not opposed to flying solo. Sex is really not that high on my priority list, nor does it take fireworks and atom splitting for me to enjoy sex.

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Thank you for considering my point of view; however wrong it may be to you.

@ OAA – I do believe that female sexuality is more complex than male sexuality on a number of levels. First of all, women (in general) are not aroused as quickly as men (in general.) The factors that lead to women’s arousal are more complex. A man may look at an arousing photo, get an erection, and be ready for intercourse. Now. Very few women can go from 0 to now in a few minutes.

Secondly, the female orgasm is much more complex than the male orgasm. Men get an erection, get stimulation, ejaculate, and that is the orgasm. For women, a sexual act does not necessarily result in orgasm. There are women who have regular sexual relations, give birth to multiple children, and never experience an orgasm. There are women who only have orgasms during manual or oral stimulation, (or with a vibrator) but not during intercourse. Male orgasms are necessary for procreation. Female orgasms are not.

@Gnu & OAA I presented the “sexual peak in the 30’s” as a theory, which has most certainly been the subject of dispute. The Kinsey Report was the first to state that women’s masturbation rate and orgasm rate increased in their 30’s. And I’m pretty sure the Hite Report cited the same thing, but it has been literally decades since I read it and a quick google on it offered up nothing of any interest.

And please understand that these two major behavioral studies, which are cited by everyone, were conducted decades before science had any understanding of the physical scope of the primary female sexual organ! In other words, there is so little that is really known about the complexities of female sexuality, that nearly all information is anecdotal. Those who study hormonal levels of men and women at different life stages claim the 30’s sexual peak is a myth. But as someone who talked with many, many women about sexuality over many years, and as someone who has lived through and passed my 30’s, I embrace the belief that women’s sexual peak is in the 30’s. I tried to find some “good, solid, rational evidence” to share, but honestly, all I found was silly stuff, arguing for and against the 30’s theory. Some sites say 28. Some say 40. Here is some random stuff that I found.

I know that I have read arguments that there is perhaps an evolutionary basis for a late sexual peak for women. The premise is that as women who have given birth multiple times already (in caves and sandy deserts and by rainy riversides, with no epidurals), and who has probably seen a percentage of those children die already, might become increasingly hesitant to engage in sexual activity that could lead to subsequent pregnancies. And so women who have a trait that increases their sexual desire later in their fertile years will probably produce more children, who will subsequently reproduce.

There are all kinds of other random theories out there. Hypotheses, really. Many suggest that younger women are more sexually repressed, and therefore more comfortable with their sexuality later in life. I don’t really buy that one. Or that women in their 30’s are more likely to be in stable relationships, and therefore more sexually comfortable. Anecdotal evidence that I’ve collected personally does not support that premise. The theory (hypothesis) that I support the most goes back to the issue of the complexity of women’s sexuality. For most women, orgasms are not automatic. They are literally a learned skill, and one that improves with practice. And nogodsforme’s post would seem to support the idea of a steady increase in sexual enjoyment. But for me, it was a little different. I went from delightful little rippley orgasms, that I had enjoyed for years, and then, as if someone just turned on a switch, they transformed into these huge, long, amazing experiences that seemed to exist outside of time and space. And then, as if the switch just got turned off, my libido dropped.

And @ Kimberly, who posted while I was writing. First of all, I’m really sorry if my post, which was written about sex for sex, not sex for family, came off as offensive to you. That was so NOT my intention. I actually appreciate your blunt, honest tone. As someone who has never engaged in sex for the purposes of procreation, I really apologize for leaving out the original purpose of the act. The burning desire to have a child, for someone who really wants to have a child, that certainly overrides the dance and the art of sex for the sake of sex. And I know women who, when desperately wanting to become pregnant, described the act less eloquently than an ATM deposit. I don’t know if you went so far as to take your temperature or pee on a stick to determine ovulation, but I sure as hell can’t think of a less sexy overture to sex that must take place within a certain number of hours. There is nothing more wonderful than a wanted, loved child, and I love the fact that your youngest was conceived on a romantic valentines day encounter, rather than a dutiful attempt to conceive. Maybe some day you’ll tell her.

I have to say that I am awed by your maturity. I didn’t feel grown up enough to be a mom until I was pushing 40. You and I are wired very differently on a lot of levels. But fortunately, neither of us has any trouble verbalizing our opinions. And you’ll be a young empty nester, and I’ll be facing retirement and my daughter’s college education simultaneously. Now that you are done having kids, you might find that one day, a switch might just turn on for you, like it did for me. Or you might find a steady increase, like nogodsforme wrote about. And if you are 27 right now, I kind of really think the best sex in your life is still to come. Especially now that the pressure of having kids is over. Send me an email in 10 years, and let me know if I was dead wrong?

Thanks for the response Quesi. I don't anticipate that happening but if it does it will be a shock to me. Even with out sex I'm not an overly physical and touchy feely person. I actually find most human physical actions uncomfortable. I don't like hugging anyone out of household other than my grandma. Love to me is not expressed physically but verbally, written or through art. I would find it strange if I woke up at 30 and decided to start investing more time and emotions in to sex. I often think, aside from the biological clock that I broke, I was created entirely a-sexual. I did read the rest of your other response and perhaps the main problem is I'm one of those women who don't have a vaginal orgasm. So sex it'self, unless procreating is pointless. (Especially since it's not an emotional bond for me.)

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Thank you for considering my point of view; however wrong it may be to you.