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Re: Indiana University Athletics Thread 2012-2013

I don't think Davis could coach a lick, and he made awful recruiting decisions. Look at his career path / lack of success after IU.

So I grudgingly grant that OlBlu has made one valid and fact-supported point. Maybe the first ever?

As to Haston going pro because RMK was not his coach, as Sollozzo noted, it was one whole year later. It was after he was named 1st team all Big 10 and 3rd team All-American. His stock was maxed out and he wisely jumped. He also excelled in NBA pre-draft camps, as I recall. I do not doubt that he maintained a friendship with Knight and may have even accepted advice from him to go pro. He certainly spoke out for Knight, along with Dane Fife, after the Ken Harvey incident. There was talk of a lot of kids transferring and Kirk could have done that, but he didn't.

The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!)

Re: Indiana University Athletics Thread 2012-2013

like I said, no one wants to admit it, but I know for a fact it's true. I probably did overstate when I said "significant portion," I really do apologize for that, didn't mean to paint the fanbase in a racist light or anything like that. it's the same with Purdue, it's why I'm such a supporter of Purdue hiring Hazell. I live in the middle of the fanbases, I've talked to plenty from both sides and heard it come from both sides mouths, literally. it's very predominately from the "old guard," whatever idiocy you want to call it, but the fact remains true.

Davis couldn't coach or recruit, Sampson could coach at least a little but lacked ethics to an extreme, even if you ignored the phone calls. He didn't care a lick about players going to class or even passing drug tests.

People like OlBlu who cherish the memory of Bob Knight while ignoring his faults think that those who think his firing was sad but justified (like I do) while also respecting his Hall of Fame coaching ability and innovative approach to the game (like I do) must worship at the altar or Mike Davis and/or Kelvin Sampson.

I feel that IU made a sound decision to fire coach Knight and made three consecutive unsound coaching decisions thereafter: Davis as interim coach, Davis granted a permanent position, and that piece of **** Sampson allowed to even walk on our campus.

The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!)

Re: Indiana University Athletics Thread 2012-2013

we all know why a significant portion of the fanbase despised Davis from day one.

When he decided not to actively recruit Sean May, a legacy recruit and sure-fire All-American, son of one of my favorite IU players of any skin tone?

Then this was repeated with many others. Some of the over-the-top RMK supporters did have racist rants on their web site, as I recall, but they spoke for no one but themselves.

You know the media member who plays the race card more than ANYONE ON EARTH, Jason Whitlock? Here's his opinion on your claim:

There's no reason to tiptoe around it, so I won't. Mike Davis' inevitable demise at Indiana University is not a product of my home state's inherent racism. No way.

Indiana University and its fans have treated Mike Davis fairly.

Mike Davis never embraced Indiana, and that's why he wasn't able to ultimately succeed there.

Davis is expected to announce Thursday that he will resign at the end of this season. He totally mismanaged a golden opportunity by throwing a six-year pity party, surrounding himself with butt-kissers and failing to demonstrate leadership by embracing the very people he claims he desperately wanted to embrace him.

Now, in the interest of full disclosure, let me share with you that at one time, I was an ardent Mike Davis supporter and a friend. We've been to each other's homes, met each other's families and friends, and spent countless hours on the phone discussing the politics of his situation at Indiana...

Come on, let's not pussyfoot around. Davis knows quite well that many Hoosiers fans want Alford to replace him. Davis' comments were calculated, designed to create sympathy and paint Indiana fans in an unflattering, redneck light.

Davis went as far as to blame discontented Indiana fans for his players' inability to focus and perform. The Hoosiers, Davis claims, just can't execute at a high level when their coach is being unmercifully crucified by good old boys.

Davis isn't the first coach -- black or white -- to face a hanging tree. And you know what? He's probably not the first to tie his own noose, pick out the tree and kick the chair out from underneath his feet. It just feels like the first time to me, because I've seen it coming from the get-go.

While Davis believes Indiana needs one of its own to lead the Hoosiers, I contend that all Indiana fans want is a coach who passionately wants to be a Hoosier. Period.

Davis spent too much time whining and feeling sorry for himself at IU.

Davis' lack of passion for Indiana is at the crux of his Hoosier Crucifixion. IU fans have never embraced Mike Davis because Mike Davis has never embraced Indiana.

The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!)

The Following User Says Thank You to Slick Pinkham For This Useful Post:

Re: Indiana University Athletics Thread 2012-2013

I don't care what Jason Whitlock said about it. I heard it myself from a number of IU supporters. I know it's not a fun notion to entertain, I've had to defend Purdue's Hazell hire to the same type of people in the last few months. This isn't a thing that anyone with any semblance of integrity (I've got a least a LITTLE bit) makes up. Like I said, I apologize for saying a "significant portion," that's not true. But there were absolutely people that didn't want Mike Davis to coach Indiana University basketball specifically, and only, because he is black. If you don't believe it I don't know what to tell you, but they literally told me so.

Re: Indiana University Athletics Thread 2012-2013

If your statement is that at least some fans of team X are racists, then yes, that statement is true, when X = almost any team in any sport at any level, a sad fact but pretty irrelevant when discussing IU basketball specifically.

Take 100 Colts fans who wanted Jim Caldwell fired, quite possibly a few of the are racists but an overwhelming majority just didn't like how he coached.
Same for Mike Davis
Same for Isiah Thomas with the Knicks (or with FIU for that matter)
Same with Lovie Smith of the Bears

There's probably somebody who hates coach K at Duke just because he's Polish.

To say such opinions are mainstream is reckless and unwarranted.

Specific to IU, I would say that the most beloved universally beloved IU players of my lifetime include in no particular order Damon Bailey, Steve Alford, Alan Henderson, Calbert Cheaney, Mike Woodson, Quinn Buckner, Scott May, Isiah Thomas, Landon Turner, and now perhaps Cody Zeller. The common thread is not skin tone but on-court excellence, character when wearing that uniform, and in many of those cases, Indiana roots.

Last edited by Slick Pinkham; 01-30-2013 at 11:48 AM.

The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!)

The Following User Says Thank You to Slick Pinkham For This Useful Post:

Re: Indiana University Athletics Thread 2012-2013

There were certainly people who disliked Davis for racial reasons, but they and those not racist would have had more valid reasons to wish for someone better. If you made a Venn diagram of "Reasons to Dislike Mike Davis" you could put up race, bad coaching, bad recruiting, not embracing the Hoosier heritage, losing to Kentucky too many times, etc. and people would fall under several overlapping spheres.

I really wanted Davis to work out, but that was way too big a job for a first time coach, in hindsight. Glad we have Crean now.

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Re: Indiana University Athletics Thread 2012-2013

To actual basketball discussions,

I hope we bury our reliance on playing zone for significant parts of games. I know it "hides" Jordan Hulls, but we just do not cover the seams in the zone well at all, and we do not rebound and ignite our fast break nearly as well when in a zone. Unless a couple of one-on-one match-ups are just KILLING us and nobody on the bench can fix it, we need to man up except as a change-of-pace strategy.

There's no way that Purdue should pose such daunting match-up problems. Man up and crush them.

The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!)

Re: Indiana University Athletics Thread 2012-2013

I'd like to think tonight's game would be as easy as last year's trip to Mackey, since after all IU is a lot better than they were a year ago, but for some reason I can't talk myself into it. Maybe it's the lack of games in hostile road environments and streaky 2nd half play.

A win tonight would be a big factor in gaining maturity and toughness. The next three games being so tough also makes it critical to get a W.

The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!)

Re: Indiana University Athletics Thread 2012-2013

If skin tone was that important to the Indiana fan base how does anyone explain the fact that the most beloved player on the team right now is by far and away Oladipo? Results speak more than anything else.

Re: Indiana University Athletics Thread 2012-2013

While I'm sure that there were a decent number of people who didn't like Davis because he was black, the vast majority of people who didn't like Davis did so because he succeeded Knight. They would have hated ANYONE who had taken his place.

Bobby had a LOT of fans, myself included. I learned a lot of what I know about the game from watching his show when I was a kid. But at the end of the day, I'm more a fan of IU than I am RMK.

Re: Indiana University Athletics Thread 2012-2013

I'd like to think tonight's game would be as easy as last year's trip to Mackey, since after all IU is a lot better than they were a year ago, but for some reason I can't talk myself into it. Maybe it's the lack of games in hostile road environments and streaky 2nd half play.

A win tonight would be a big factor in gaining maturity and toughness. The next three games being so tough also makes it critical to get a W.

The game was pretty close most of last year too until Remy hit some big jumpers to bust it open. If we end up rolling in this game I will be impressed. Personally I would play man pretty much the entire game. Have Hulls on Byrd.

Re: Indiana University Athletics Thread 2012-2013

While I'm sure that there were a decent number of people who didn't like Davis because he was black, the vast majority of people who didn't like Davis did so because he succeeded Knight. They would have hated ANYONE who had taken his place.

Bobby had a LOT of fans, myself included. I learned a lot of what I know about the game from watching his show when I was a kid. But at the end of the day, I'm more a fan of IU than I am RMK.

Bobby was just not a very good coach his final half decade here. Who ever came after him was probably not going to succeed. It is so rare to happen, a seamless transition like that when a college coach leaves.

In retrospect, that Davis team getting hot and making the 2002 game was probably the worst possible event for the program as a whole. It didn't result in a title but it did result in buying Davis a lot more time than he would have otherwise had.

Whitlock's quote posted by Slick saying that you don't necessarily need a Hoosier, but you need someone who desperately wants to be a Hoosier pretty much sums up Crean perfectly. I don't often agree with Whitlock but he seemingly hit the nail on the head there.

Re: Indiana University Athletics Thread 2012-2013

Agreed, he was terrible. I am merely submitting that Bob Knight his last 5 or so years at IU was also terrible.

Terrible is too strong a word. Inconsistent, and exceptionally poor in the NCAA tournament. Those teams were full of turmoil. I know that blaming Neil Reed for being a selfish player and person has a heavy layer of blaming the victim. But we've all heard stories of broken plays and other nonsense. Its kinda amazing that -- as quick as Knight had been to chase kids away in the past -- that Neil stuck around long enough to be in that famous confrontation. That was a caustic environment with a lot of bad seeds... Knight, Reed, Felling, all of them really actually deserved each other. But I didn't think coaching itself was a problem. Bob's ego was a big part of the problem, but not his coaching.

Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
And life itself, rushing over me
Life itself, the wind in black elms,
Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

Re: Indiana University Athletics Thread 2012-2013

I am really disappointed to see IU students trying to price gouge other IU students on the Mich game for tickets. Someone is trying to sell section 2 row 10 tix for 650 each to students since you have to have a student ID. That is really disappointing to me, if you can't go just give em out.

Re: Indiana University Athletics Thread 2012-2013

Terrible is too strong a word. Inconsistent, and exceptionally poor in the NCAA tournament. Those teams were full of turmoil. I know that blaming Neil Reed for being a selfish player and person has a heavy layer of blaming the victim. But we've all heard stories of broken plays and other nonsense. Its kinda amazing that -- as quick as Knight had been to chase kids away in the past -- that Neil stuck around long enough to be in that famous confrontation. That was a caustic environment with a lot of bad seeds... Knight, Reed, Felling, all of them really actually deserved each other. But I didn't think coaching itself was a problem. Bob's ego was a big part of the problem, but not his coaching.

His recruiting fell off, his preparation also clearly fell off IMO. His heart just wasn't relaly in coaching anymore. His heart might have been in IU, but it wasn't in coaching.

Re: Indiana University Athletics Thread 2012-2013

Knight actually cycled between championship level teams with so-so years in-between, if you look at the season records. In other words, he seemed to gradually put the pieces together for a title run, then most would leave, then he'd start again. What hurt was not getting a title in the '92 / '93 years with tons of talent and at least one unexpected final four obstacle named Ted Valentine and another in a devastating knee injury to Henderson.

The abysmal in-state talent and some lazy recruiting beyond that prevented a championship-level cycle in the late 90s. I think that the 2001-2002 team was put together well and was gearing for the title, but Bob had too much pride to accept accountability for his behavior and just didn't get there. When I think of all the in-state talent that was likely to go to IU in the 2000s if RMK had behaved himself, it makes it worse. Our lowest years coincided with a lot of talent that went elsewhere because Davis and later Sampson didn't even go after them.

The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!)