You can call me out all u want. Go back to my thread on freeman before the season started. Freeman looked good against Carolina but then I came back down to earth knowing not to buy into the enigma of his inconsistency. As te Carolina game progressed his favoritism showed towards Jackson. It continued to the giants game where then finally the cowboys isolated him and his flaws.

Notice how in the giants game I said he's locking into Jackson too much.

You can call me out all u want. Go back to my thread on freeman before the season started. Freeman looked good against Carolina but then I came back down to earth knowing not to buy into the enigma of his inconsistency. As te Carolina game progressed his favoritism showed towards Jackson. It continued to the giants game where then finally the cowboys isolated him and his flaws.

Notice how in the giants game I said he's locking into Jackson too much.

Sure ill admit I rode the pine. But freeman doesn't have consistency on his side.

SappDaddyDanceJoined: 06 Oct 2010Posts: 556Location: The Great State of Fist Pumpin and Hair Gel

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 7:06 pm Post subject:

REDandPEWTER wrote:

SappDaddyDance wrote:

REDandPEWTER wrote:

SappDaddyDance wrote:

Quote:

Yeah, I saw that a little bit," said former offensive lineman Brian Baldinger, an analyst for Fox and the NFL Network. "You never see him just stay in there and, literally, as he's throwing it, somebody just wallops him. He always will back out and fade away from the throw. That's on tape and that's one reason the Vikings were blitzing."

Quote:

That's a fair point, especially after a game in which Esiason thought Manning looked "completely confused and rattled." Maybe he could've gotten away with that elsewhere, but by now he should know he'll never get away with it here.

If you had not picked up where these quotes were from, they are from a 2007 News article where Giants GM Jerry Reese made claims of Eli Manning looking skittish and unsure about himself after a game against the Minnesota Vikings where manning was sacked 3 times in a losing effort. Of Note at that time Eli was near the bottom in both completion percentage (58% and a Quarterback Rating of 75 when the perfect score was 158.3). Very similar to Freeman's current pace. Growing up in New Jersey and going to college in New York I was able to see similarities between the two:
-Both QB's were in their fourth year with a new offensive coordinator putting in new digit based offensive sets which takes a considerable amount of time to put in place (Many equate learning this offense to learning French about spending years learning Spanish)
-Both had a history of having calm demeanor coming out and had up to this point struggled to find that point (Freeman if many were not familiar had one of the most surprising upsets in college football history as a Freshman when he threw for 300+ yards to beat number 1 Texas at Texas)
-Both played at college programs that struggled to win (Eli went to 2 bowl games Freeman went to 1)
-Both had been known up to this point as QB's that had accuracy issues (Eli as many real Giant fans might admit to this day has terrible accuracy issues and is bailed out by his wide outs)
-Both spent their first three years not only inconsistent play, but had to rely solely on Tight ends that were both past their prime (also both played at Miami after the other in Shockey and Winslow)
-Both play was attributed to some sloppy fundamentals involving footwork. (Eli just like Freeman would try to side step into throws
-In their fourth year they both were able to attract the top free agent wide out in which in both offenses had early struggles. (As evidenced by Jerry Reese's skittish statement)

-Both had/have success when the playbook is essentially thrown out and they can just play football (as evidenced for Freeman by the last two drives in the Giants game, the 2010 season (4 Quarters), along with Eli Manning who is known all around the league for his success in the 2 minute offense (when the playbook and scheme is basically thrown out for all intensive purposes).

I have many more points, but I want you to consider all of these factors just happened 5 years ago and you see where Eli is now. As a Bucs fan yesterday I was just as livid as any other Bucs fan on here, but after taking a day to calm down I realize that this is a new offense and there will be growing pains especially in trying to see the entire field and make determinations on routes. Although many point this to be Freeman's biggest down fall that he doesn't go through progressions, they forget that he has gone through 3 different offenses play callings in 4 years (including two in his rookie year), that determining where receivers are suppose to be can be mistaken between the three different styles of play calling. I'm not making any excuses for the guy, but you can see the similarities between him and Eli especially in this fourth year that could make you want to take a wait and see approach. Besides if he takes bad enough we will end up drafting first overall and then we can take another QB. But lets take the wait and see approach

It's nice to compare and be optomistic, but the problem with Freeman is, all these flaws that were question marks coming out of K-State, are showing up still in his 4th year. There is no progression, only regression.

It sucks to point it out bc when you miss on a 1st round QB that you drafted to be the franchise, it sets a team back a couple years. When you stare one side of the field down and can't go through progressions well enough, he's so used to it to the point, I'm not sure he improves. He spends countless hours in the film room, weight room, and practice field with coaches, trying to get better. I admire his work ethic, but I just don't think he's adapted to the game. He doesn't see the field well. He's late with his throws, fails to throw with anticipation, still has that long release, has had accuracy issues his entire career, even back at K-State. I hate to say it, but he's the skinnier version of Byron Leftwich.

If he plays solid against Washington, he'll be loved by several of fellow buc fans, but they forget the bad has outweighed the good.

I understand your points that he is making those errors, but most of those of correctable through consistency and I am not just talking about Freeman, it starts with the coaching staff being there for more than one year. Think about it this way, Freeman's rookie year he was suppose to essentially redshirt that year while they tried to correct those errors that had plagued him in college with the use of a solid QB coach and a solid offense. What ended up happening was that the Offensive coordinator quit before the season, he lost out on his QB coach and due to inept QB play from the QB's ahead of him on the depth chart he was forced to play as a rookie without a QB coach to help correct him and show him how to watch Film the "proper way". His second year he got another year under his belt and for the first time in his career he was able to get a QB coach that helped correct some of those issues and as a result of having a QB coach to help him out and by having a "consistent" offensive playcaller (as bad as he was) he was able to have a very good year, mounting several strong performances. Last year he did not get an off-season to work with his QB coaches or offensive coordinator and as a result did not improve as the defenses had been able to as they had film on him. This year he has yet another offense and a new offensive coordinator/QB coach where he is basically being retaught how to play the QB position (which is what was suppose to happen his rookie year, but because of the aforementioned mishap in 2009 did not occur). So am I surprised that he is struggling right now with these issues since he was never able to have someone truly correct him on these, no. And as I stated in my previous post the reasons for optimism is because he is basically being re-developed into a "real NFL QB" something that didn't happen in the past. He was more like Mike Vick relying on physical abilities as opposed to a guy who was learning how to play QB, and I think that Turner will help turn Freeman around.

One final point that I want to make is that I either saw on here or JoeBucsFan a point made about how Gabbert is having a good year with Greg Olson as his QB coach which I find interesting, but to compare him to Freeman at this point is moot as Olson was SUPPOSE to be Freeman's QB coach and instead became his Offensive coordinator which is not even close to the same thing in terms of responsibilities, while Freeman relied on a career backup QB (and 1st time QB Coach) in Alex Van Pelt to teach him how to play the position.

So RnP to go back to your point that it may seem that I am trying to hard to believe in Freeman, it's not because of blind luck and prayer that he is going to be a good QB, it's the fact that for the first time in his four year career that he actually has what all good QB's need to actually reach their potential, consistency in his coaching

On all your points:

1. Accuracy isn't correctable. Neither is poor field vision and awareness. He hasn't corrected it since and his hard work hasn't reflected his play.

2. You claim he had a QBs coach to work with in 2010, but then point out Van Pelt was terrible. Van Pelt was his QBs coach in 2010 and 2011.

3. The more I think of it, the Lock-out isn't an excuse. Rookie QBs last year were more successful without any learning of the play-book or chemistry building with WRs. Matt Stafford made leaps as well as Alex Smith, who was learning a new offense. Freeman had the same playbook and was working out at IMG and ran a few mini-camps on his own.

I'm sorry but there are just too many excuses. You make the comparison to Manning and Him having similar paths, but they're two entirely different QBs.

To Counter your previous points:
1. Footwork is one of key factors aside from arm placement that helps determine the accuracy of the pass. If you actually go back and look at Freeman's interceptions and incompletions 99% of the time he has either tried to either step away from pass or it was when he actually got out of his drop that he feet where not squared. Footwork can easily be corrected with proper practice and reconstructing.

1(b) On going through progressions that comes through with understanding where all the routes are and where the wide recievers are suppose to be. Over time I feel as though this will be corrected through the assistance of a strong QB coach which leads to point number 2

2. The point that I made on the QB coach in 2010 he was taught how to watch film During the off-season Freeman was not allowed to workout with his QB coach and when they both came back from the lockout the inexperience on both parties (Freeman and Van Pelt) actually showed as they were not able to make the proper adjustments (i.e. Van Pelt was able to detect some issues off the field such has how to watch film, but not on how to correct the fundamentals that hurt Freeman on the field. With having Ron Turner who is a widely respected QB coach in this league he will be able to help Freeman correct these issues, as he himself said that they were due to footwork issues (aka point 1)

3. The success of the QB's that you listed was attributed to lack of Film. Even Stafford before that season had played less than a full season up to that point leading to minimal film. And if you actually noticed most of those QB's had a huge drop off in the second half of the season when teams made adjustments

3(b) Alex Smith who did have a new offense instilled was placed into a very similar type west coast offense from the offense that he had ran with Nolan and Singletary, there were some wrinkles added in, but for the most part it was the exact same offense that was ran in the past. Freeman is going from a west coast offense to more of a run and shoot offense where there are huge differences in areas such as timing routes, check downs, and verbiage which is generally where most QB's learning a new offense struggle.

In final, I understand your frustration, but nothing can really be done until after week 17. I am just saying that there are somethings that this new regime are presenting that could help make Freeman a better QB that we might not be able to see until after the season to see if there is any progression. If there is no progression after this year then we go in another direction. But as of week 3 there is nothing that we can do right now.
If there is a suggestion that we can do right now I would love to hear it, I mean what trade for Jason Campbell, Matt Flynn, there really isn't anything that we can do immediately to resolve this situation so I feel like we should just see if our coaches can get our offense in the right direction_________________

You know RnP, I was thinking about this today, and the more I do, the more I think you're right.

Right now this is a very QB friendly team. Defense is very strong and gets the ball back. Running game is ok at worst. Receivers are capable and the line is average at worst. Any QB should be able to step in and be at least somewhat successful, even a rookie. I know the playcalling was bad but Freeman still made lots of mistakes.

We could be 3-0 right now if the offense was better.

Honestly I'm not sure Freeman will do well next week. Morris is their DB coach and may have some inside knowledge on Free that could play against us in a bad way. But if he is still coming out stale after the Bye week, I think I'm off the band wagon.

In the NFL there is one essential factor for any sustained success. That essential ingredient is continuity. As Walt suggested in his power rankings , Buccaneers quarterback Josh Freeman doesn't look right entering his fourth season in the NFL. At the conclusion of the NFL preseason, he didn't look like a quarterback who had improved after last season's struggles that played a part in the Bucs losing their final 10 games to finish 4-12 in 2011.

Freeman completed 18-of-34 passes (52.9 percent) this preseason for 164 yards, one touchdown and one interception. His rating was 76.1. The score came after the Bucs' drive started at the Titans' two-yard line during the second preseason game.

Even though Freeman's completion percentage improved over each of his first three seasons, sources with the team have said that Freeman is just not that naturally accurate. He has made a habit over the years of overthrowing some open receivers, and that has been an issue, once again, this preseason. Freeman was underthrowing and overthrowing receivers consistently this August.

His first and foremost issue entering the NFL was accuracy. Freeman completed less than 60 percent of his passes in college and Kansas State had a sub .500 record with him at the helm.

Tampa Bay general manager Dominik, among others, attributed the completion percentage to receivers dropping passes and an overall lack of talent at the wide receiver position. The Wildcats definitely were far from loaded, but Freeman had an excellent receiver, Jordy Nelson, to work with in a two of his three seasons. Most college quarterbacks don't have a receiver of Nelson's caliber to throw to.

The Buccaneers charged quarterbacks coach and offensive coordinator Greg Olson with developing Freeman. They added quarterbacks coach Alex Van Pelt in 2010, and, together, Freeman and the coaches produced a phenomenal 2010 season where the signal-caller completed 61 percent of his passes for 3,451 yards with 25 touchdowns and six interceptions. A massive improvement over his struggles as a rookie.

Freeman fell back down to earth in a thud last season, completing 62.8 percent of his passes for 3,592 yards with 16 touchdowns and 22 interceptions. He had a quarterback rating of 74.6. While Freeman really struggled with ball security and decision-making, he set a career high in completion percentage.

The lack of continuity has been the biggest reason for Freeman to still be considered a work in progress entering his fourth season. The lack of schematic cohesion is an organizational failure that can be attributed to general manager Mark Dominik and the teamís owners, the Glazers. The owners were the driving force that insisted Jeff Jagodzinski be hired as the offensive coordinator in 2009.

Former head coach Raheem Morris wanted to make Olson the offensive coordinator, but the Glazers insisted on Jagodzinski. He was fired during the 2009 preseason - just over seven months after being hired - and the Buccaneers offense became a hodge-podge system.

Freeman had a semblance of continuity in 2010 and 2011 running Olson's offense. Freeman made strides with his accuracy and knowledge of NFL defenses. Tampa Bay cleaned house of its coaching staff after last season, hiring offensive coordinator Mike Sullivan to bring in his offense from New York.

In speaking with sources with Buccaneers, Freeman has had a tough challenge to overcome with the new offense under Sullivan. The Buccaneers changed from a West Coast offense for a pro digit offense. Thus, the personnel packages no longer had names like Tiger or Zebra and now are numeric. After three seasons with the West Coast style, Freeman had a complete switch in terminology. That is akin to switching to French your senior year of high school after taking Spanish for three years.

Sources have said that Freeman is a hard worker and puts in a lot of time, but they said he doesn't pick things up like the elite student signal-callers of the NFL. Thus, Freeman needs more time to pick up a new offense. They also said that the smartest quarterback the Bucs had over the past few seasons was Josh Johnson; he signed with San Francisco last spring.

With the latest change, Freeman is learning his third offense inside of four NFL seasons. Rather than having an offense mastered at this point so he can focus on learning NFL defenses and the tendencies of defensive coordinators, he is still working through how to operate Tampa Bay's offense.

Dominik in the past has stated the Bucs would build a fleet of receivers to grow with Freeman. That has turned out to be a failure as even his receiving targets have lacked consistency. His primary weapons as a rookie were Antonio Bryant and Michael Clayton - two receivers who Dominik brought back with lucrative contracts. Those two produced very little.

Freeman had young receivers Mike Williams and Arrelious Benn as his top two receivers in 2010 and 2011. The one constant over those three years was tight end Kellen Winslow. Now Freeman's top target is free agent addition Vincent Jackson with veteran tight end Dallas Clark and Williams as the secondary receivers.

The jury is still out on Williams and Benn, but the Bucs have passed on other receivers that clearly would've helped Freeman. Tampa Bay passed on Mike Wallace in the third round of the 2009 NFL Draft for defensive tackle Roy Miller. Just before the draft, a high-ranking decision-maker for the Bucs' roster said the team didn't need Wallace because it had a similar receiver in Dexter Jackson on the team. Jackson was a second-round bust as a rookie in 2008 and didn't even make the team in 2009. Tampa Bay is hopeful that Vincent Jackson will stretch the field vertically as the Bucs haven't had a true deep threat for Freeman to work with in this first three seasons.

Freeman and Jackson didn't look like they were on the same page throughout this preseason. Perhaps the Buccaneers were holding everything back and will unleash an effective duo on the Carolina Panthers in Week 1. More likely, Freeman will still be working through the offense in the first part of the season. The second half of the 2012 season will probably feature better play out of the signal-caller.

Not to be a broken record: continuity is key in the NFL and Freeman has had none of it. In the backfield, he is working with his third starting running back in four seasons. The lack of constancy can be found elsewhere on the roster. Defensive tackle Gerald McCoy, the third-overall pick in the 2010 NFL Draft, has had three different defensive line coaches in three seasons. The linebackers and defensive backs are on their third coach in four years. The offensive line is on its third coach in three years, etc.

That reflects poor planning on the part of Dominik and the Glazers. It is hard for players to learn the NFL when they are annually being taught the basics of their own systems and techniques that their new coaches want them to practice.

This is a critical year for Freeman in his career. A good season will probably result in a massive contract extension. Another rough season and he could see competition for his starting job in 2013.

All of that turnover can help explain why the team has averaged 10 losses per year under Dominik (17-31). His future with the team could easily be tied to how Freeman performs in 2012. For Dominik and Freeman, the signal-caller has to overcome a big obstacle in the lack of continuity that Dominik and the Glazers have provided him.

You can call me out all u want. Go back to my thread on freeman before the season started. Freeman looked good against Carolina but then I came back down to earth knowing not to buy into the enigma of his inconsistency. As te Carolina game progressed his favoritism showed towards Jackson. It continued to the giants game where then finally the cowboys isolated him and his flaws.

Notice how in the giants game I said he's locking into Jackson too much.

Sure ill admit I rode the pine. But freeman doesn't have consistency on his side.

But you also said we should let Free air it out and that Sully is holding him back, and he can really throw a football and how he should carry the offense.... next week you say he sucks. Now that's fine an all but make up your mind. Even if he sucks it up next week or lights it up, it shouldn't change the opinion you seem to make.

At this point, Freeman had a small sample size against Carolina where he looked sharp, he had an impressive game vs the Giants, and a ugly one against the Boys. There's still more we need to see from him. He threw a couple ugly ones yesterday, but I will say for the most part he looked real good on his passes the first two games. Threw some absolute rockets. Free has two problems that are bigger than the others, he suddenly lost his mobility.... and scanning the field.

He was one of the better QBs on the run his rookie and sophomore seasons, and I know that he's looking to pass not get injured but that's going to open up his game a lot. Scanning the field, he needs to do better a job in for sure.... I've only seen him look good doing it consistently in a two minute. Then again, it is a lot harder doing it in the i-form with only really two good options on the field or off a PA pass. But he needs to know when to throw it away or get outta the pocket, which makes 0 sense to me because his instincts looked so good year one and year in that area.

I will say this, the whole offense needs to step it up. Sully's play calling are a legit reason we could be 0-3 and not 3-0, our run game has not done squat, our receivers were not open yesterday and dropped it when they were, Freeman looked uncomfortable, and our line did a bad job yesterday.

TBH, we need to reassess our whole offensive approach. We are a power running team that cannot run the ball. Our oline has been better pass-blocking than run-blocking, and I like Martin and all.... but he has not showed that he's a first round type of RB at all..... and not good enough to limit Blount to no carries.

Joined: 31 Aug 2011Posts: 5439Location: Hate for the Donkeys is at a mile high

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:34 pm Post subject:

LazyBoyFil wrote:

ArrowheadRage58 wrote:

You guys don't know how lucky you are...you could have Matt Cassel. Seriously, is the Bucs O-Line any good? I know the weapons are below average overall and you can't run the ball...he's still young and has the talent, we'd love to have that combination in KC.

Only the established QB's are gonna do a whole lot with what he's got to work with....still I know he should play better than he is.

Sorry dude but I would trade Freeman for Cassel straight up right now

Whoever said it was right, the problem isn't our OC it's freeman
And as its been said unfortunately there aren't any good QBS worth taking in this draft that we could get
We are stuck with him for at least next season
Whoever said to trade for tebow, at least our ticket sales would get a boost
Tebow couldn't be that much worse either
Any clown can throw for 30yards a game

You wouldn't if you watched the Chiefs, he's got mad weapons too...did you see the short swing pass that was so off target he forced McCluster to dive and he landed ugly on his arm. He's also had about a handful of games below 100 yards since 2009. There's should be plenty of good QB's in the draft...Geno, Wilson, and Barkley atleast._________________

49ers Finest wrote:

People just seem to be mad because the chiefs are all of a sudden doing what their fans thought they were capable of

You can call me out all u want. Go back to my thread on freeman before the season started. Freeman looked good against Carolina but then I came back down to earth knowing not to buy into the enigma of his inconsistency. As te Carolina game progressed his favoritism showed towards Jackson. It continued to the giants game where then finally the cowboys isolated him and his flaws.

Notice how in the giants game I said he's locking into Jackson too much.

Sure ill admit I rode the pine. But freeman doesn't have consistency on his side.

But you also said we should let Free air it out and that Sully is holding him back, and he can really throw a football and how he should carry the offense.... next week you say he sucks. Now that's fine an all but make up your mind. Even if he sucks it up next week or lights it up, it shouldn't change the opinion you seem to make.

At this point, Freeman had a small sample size against Carolina where he looked sharp, he had an impressive game vs the Giants, and a ugly one against the Boys. There's still more we need to see from him. He threw a couple ugly ones yesterday, but I will say for the most part he looked real good on his passes the first two games. Threw some absolute rockets. Free has two problems that are bigger than the others, he suddenly lost his mobility.... and scanning the field.

He was one of the better QBs on the run his rookie and sophomore seasons, and I know that he's looking to pass not get injured but that's going to open up his game a lot. Scanning the field, he needs to do better a job in for sure.... I've only seen him look good doing it consistently in a two minute. Then again, it is a lot harder doing it in the i-form with only really two good options on the field or off a PA pass. But he needs to know when to throw it away or get outta the pocket, which makes 0 sense to me because his instincts looked so good year one and year in that area.

I will say this, the whole offense needs to step it up. Sully's play calling are a legit reason we could be 0-3 and not 3-0, our run game has not done squat, our receivers were not open yesterday and dropped it when they were, Freeman looked uncomfortable, and our line did a bad job yesterday.

TBH, we need to reassess our whole offensive approach. We are a power running team that cannot run the ball. Our oline has been better pass-blocking than run-blocking, and I like Martin and all.... but he has not showed that he's a first round type of RB at all..... and not good enough to limit Blount to no carries.

You guys don't know how lucky you are...you could have Matt Cassel. Seriously, is the Bucs O-Line any good? I know the weapons are below average overall and you can't run the ball...he's still young and has the talent, we'd love to have that combination in KC.

Only the established QB's are gonna do a whole lot with what he's got to work with....still I know he should play better than he is.

For having josh freeman as our quarterback? you serious? Honestly do you watch the buc games?

And people thought I was crazy when I said we should look at Peyton Manning during free agency after are other additions of Vjax and Nicks and now look at this thread lol

I still believe this is a make or break year for Freeman, but if he doesn't pan out we need to look at other options starting next season._________________Adopt a Buc:
2012 - Doug Martin
2013 - Darrelle Revis

Ah I really liked Freeman in 09 and wanted the Jets to sit at 17 and take him if he was there. Then they moved up and took Sanchez. Looks like neither are working out too well with their respective teams right now.

I hope he changes my opinion and proves me wrong. I liked him coming out because I thought by now his flaws would be correctable they haven't and those are huge flaws that get you the bust label along with regression and not progressing.

I see many of you talking about Wrs not getting off there breaks. I watched the game last night and I see several times seattles dbs smothering packer Wrs and Rodgers throws them open and on anticipation. Now not to compare those two but its an example of how late freeman is throwing the ball and doesn't dissect the defense well enough per-snap.