dxm_dxm wrote:The fifth percept is there because drugs lead to craving. Even something like this dxm+meditating thing leads to craving, by a lot. In the days of doing this you can bet I am super exited and can't wait to take the drug and do this, it is not an unpleasant activity. There is no doubt this is violating the 5th percept.

Sex leads to craving, good food leads to craving, many other things lead to craving. Overeating is one of the major causes of sickness even, and let's not forget about smoking, which I think we can assume was around at the time of the Buddha. So why are those things not in the basic precepts? .. because it's not just about whether it leads to addiction/craving. It's that drugs are actually detrimental to spiritual practice. And one beer or joint once in a while won't probably hurt too too much in my opinion, but thinking a drug aids in meditation can hurt lots more.

But I recognize you probably won't change your mind. And that's ok with me. If you want to use it, go ahead. But please for the sake of others, don't be an advertisement for drugs in combination with meditation.

Speaking of not pretenting to be totally detached like an arhant already in order to walk the path. In thailand I think 55% of budhist monks used to smoke. After an anti-smoking campain they dropped to 35%.

and let's not forget about smoking, which I think we can assume was around at the time of the Buddha. So why are those things not in the basic precepts?

Oh wait a minute. The nr 4 most addictive drug is not violating the 5th percept ? Did Budha make a list of drugs for that ? What did he put there except alchool ? Hiuh.. seems like dxm is not violating the 5th percept after all

dxm_dxm wrote:what this drug basically does is cut of your mind from your body, that is the whole magic about it. The body is a big impediment in meditation

this is pretty much exactly the opposite of the Buddhist approach to meditation.

Having both abused DXM recreationally and being long time meditator, I believe it would be impossible to attain any meaningful state of right-Samadhi while under the influence of DXM. Being dissociated from the body is exactly the opposite of what Jhana is. I believe it likely that you are mistaking pleasant, drug induced states for Jhana... drug induced states of concentration can be powerful and profound, but be clear... they are not right-Samadhi. The only way for you to know for SURE is to maintain Jhana without drugs and compare the two states.

I also believe that out of all the drugs I used as a teenager, DXM was the most damaging. so be forewarned.

"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."

Not to mention, attachment to any object is refrained from fundamentally in Buddhism. Dxm is the same. It is likely the euphoric fascination has dxm delusioned and enchanted in his thinking that an exterior substance has progressed his sense of spirituality --- directly violated the very basics of Buddhism. Alas, sometimes it takes folly to wake us up I suppose.

Hoping for your protection dxm, a dangerous drug is still dangerous to the body.May you discover the true peace / bliss within along with right samadhi!

Having both abused DXM recreationally and being long time meditator, I believe it would be impossible to attain any meaningful state of right-Samadhi while under the influence of DXM. Being dissociated from the body is exactly the opposite of what Jhana is. I believe it likely that you are mistaking pleasant, drug induced states for Jhana... drug induced states of concentration can be powerful and profound, but be clear... they are not right-Samadhi. The only way for you to know for SURE is to maintain Jhana without drugs and compare the two states.

You are losing the practical reality thinking about theory. Been disociated from the body makes the body pain, the senses etc. that can distract you dissapear. It is the same as an isolation chamber. Can you say that because meditation in an isolation chamber is more powerfull it is not right meditation ? The term "drug" scares people more than isolation chamber.

The most important point is I AM NOT MISTAKEN JHANA FOR A NORMAL EFFECT OF THE DRUG. That is why I posted this. When I tried to do this experiment 2 years ago and posted on this forum what happened I concluded that I improved the effect of the drug but achieved nothing in meditating and that most of the time it was imposible to meditate on it. (the topic was deleted) On this drug it is known that 90% of the thing is what you do after it, the same as in this experiment. You have to figure out how to do it, figure out the dosage you can;t just take it and boom.

The steps I am experiencing while entering jhana on this drug are identical to what I experience when sober and to what I read should happen. As a matter of fact I entered second jhana and did now know it for 2 times and then after reading how to do it so that I could get there I found out it was the second and payed more atention and it was exaclty what was supposed to happen (in one of the 2 sources, as I said the information is contradicting on the net). I am reffering to dropping vitaka and vicara, droping the voluntary atention and effort to the pleasantnes of the pleasant sensation, not changing your focus to emotional pleasure. There is no emotional pleasure to be found to change to it. Belive me it is not some effect of the drug improved by this, actually the effects of the drug are non existant at all the day when you do this, only a little dissociation while not meditating and probably serotonine levels increased but nothing more than that. When meditating on it the meditation is as clear and how-it-is-suposed-to-be as it gets, there is no side effect of the drug bothering you. THIS IS SOMETHING REMARKABLE AND THAT IS WHY I POSTED THIS.

The reason why I posted this in the first place is actually because the information should be somewhere. I see in all documentaries how big stuff is discovered from unexpected places and how big stuff is not discovered because of information not been shared etc. There is probably more bad than good in posting this but that;s why I did it. If it is 0,01% chance of something been discovered because of this I had to post it.

Anyway, I am gona e-mail this to the guy that made the "DMT - the spirit molecule" because he seems to do research like this. THIS DESERVES A COUPLE OF BRAIN SCANS AT LEAST. There is 0,01% chance of hearing the classic documentary beggining line "so I heard about this and took 16 student volunteers, stoned them up and bingo" lol

I also believe that out of all the drugs I used as a teenager, DXM was the most damaging. so be forewarned.

In what aspect ? I am afraid of lowering your brain capacities in some way and doing it slowly so that you do not notice. I would apreciate an honest and argumented opinion.

Earlier, yes. But then you revoked it, as it were, by accepting dxm's snide dismissal of such trifles.

And now you continue encouraging it all the more:

Lazy_Eye wrote:

perkele wrote:And what is the culmination of insight? That all things are anicca, dukkha, anatta. All states are anicca, dukkha, anatta. To cut off all craving and clinging for them and be free.Yet some people think that jhana is Nibbana, only cultivating ever more craving and clinging for some special pleasent, blissful state, even to the point of wanting to reach it by any means, even drugs.

Actually, though, the aim of Buddhism is the end of dukkha (see the fourth noble truth).

If mind can be manipulated at will using various kinds of medication, why bother cultivating insight at all? You can reduce your suffering and engineer happiness through pharmaceutical means, and the brain will cease working at death, bringing instant parinibbana.

If that is what you endorse then I can't help you.

Lazy_Eye wrote:I think we can have an intelligent discussion and skip the rhetorical posturing. How about you demonstrate instead why jhana attained by means of cough syrup is not really jhana?

I never suggested such a thing and don't think it's even relevant. So I'm not interested in an "intelligent discussion" about it. Thank you.

The point that I made is that jhana is not even the goal.It's an ephemeral state.Becoming a drug addict for the sake of attaining it is just completely deluded.

I guess it's futile to dissuade dxm_dxm from such endeavours anyway by now.He was not really looking for advice, but only intent on proudly advertising his great "discovery".

It's really astounding.

So much hypocrisy, and so much endorsement for it. It's really saddening.

Now for anymore excuses, and anymore distractions from the moral situation, by being dry and "rational" and "discussing intelligently", I am not available.

Well, in case I have not made myself clear, let me say again: I am not endorsing dxm_dxm's method. I am against the abuse of medications for recreational purposes, let alone spiritual ones.

However, when somebody posts a topic for discussion, I usually try to avoid dismissing their point of view out of hand, and instead try to engage them and get an idea of where they are coming from. Blanket condemnations, shouting matches and riding the moral high horse really do little else except gratify the person doing the shouting, condemning and moral posturing. Perhaps I'm wrong, but my sense was that the OP was trying to begin a dialogue on the topic.

dxm_dxm wrote:The steps I am experiencing while entering jhana on this drug are identical to what I experience when sober and to what I read should happen. As a matter of fact I entered second jhana and did now know it for 2 times and then after reading how to do it so that I could get there I found out it was the second and payed more atention and it was exaclty what was supposed to happen (in one of the 2 sources, as I said the information is contradicting on the net).

Perhaps consider your source and/or your interpretation of it, can be wrong. There is much guff out there, on the net especially. Again, jhana is a skill like playing an instrument. No drug will help in that, you just have to learn it the hard way. There are no shortcuts sadly. Well, talent perhaps, but that is no drug.

Hi DXM,would you post a link to the meditation instructions you are using? Also could you describe in more details your experience of the jhana when you dont use the drug.Also how long it takes you to enter it, how long you can stay in it and most important, why dont you practice the jhana every time without the drug, if you have learned how to do it?

you're probably going to catch a lot of flack here for this, but i'm willing to engage in discussion about this even in private if this thread gets deleted. i think it's an important topic.

You are losing the practical reality thinking about theory. Been disociated from the body makes the body pain, the senses etc. that can distract you dissapear. It is the same as an isolation chamber. Can you say that because meditation in an isolation chamber is more powerfull it is not right meditation ?

IMO, the purpose of Jhana & meditation in general is not to turn away from sensory experience but to clearly understand it & how it's effecting the mind. If we short cut around learning how to skilfully manage how our mind responds to sensory input we are effectively missing the point of meditation and missing out on a lot of what long term meditation practice has to teach us. I don't think meditation practice is totally about the 'end goal', or the Jhanas themselves, but learning how to get there as a skill.

In what aspect ? I am afraid of lowering your brain capacities in some way and doing it slowly so that you do not notice. I would apreciate an honest and argumented opinion.

my memory primarily... my short term memory and temporal sequencing are severely damaged & it's been almost 15 years since I've used dxm. I believe it also effected my eyesight & my stomach... these effects have persisted as well.

"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."

What on earth have you actually attained if you can't do this without a hallucinogen. There are drastic changes that these kinds of drugs do to your brain. Your body naturally produces serotonin to dream/sleep. If you introduce something into your system that takes over this process or puts it in over drive, you risk the brain completely shutting the natural process down. The human body is ruthless with this kind of thing... It's why astronauts start losing bone mass in space, the body thinks, "WELL, I don't have this gravity thing I have to constantly struggle against, I'll just stop repairing bone structure" It worries me greatly that you take this drug, if your brain stops creating Serotonin naturally, and you stop taking this drug you risk become INTENSELY depressed.

How can you be sure you even have any attainments, perhaps your mind is tricking yourself into thinking you've attained something because that's what it desires. I have had reoccurring dreams over many years in which I can play the guitar and draw VERY well. When I wake up I haven't gained any skill in either of them though. Please re-think your use of this drug. At the very least think about the saying "If it sounds to good to be true, it probably is, OR , Anything worth having is worth working for.

My approach to this temting shortcut to the fruits of the dhamma is; NO NO NO

The three jewels is not a nice picture on the wall - it's dimonds inside my mind, and they are my dearest companions on my path to freedom

To disrespect these teachings is actually not possible for me - and the love for all these countless superheroes who has walked the path before and gathered these fragments of dimonddust, means that they deserves my best effort.

Lord Buddha said we have three sets of parents: the ones that brings you to life - the ones that teach you right from wrong - the ones that gives you the dhamma

We shold respect our parents, all of them

No luck today on my mendicant rounds; From village to village I dragged myself. At sunset I find myself with miles of mountains between me and my hut. The wind tears at my frail body, And my little bowl looks so forlorn -- Yes this is my chosen path that guides me Through disappointment and pain, cold and hunger.

After reading some members concerns regarding this thread, we have decided to close it down.Despite what the OP has stated, he is engaging in promoting the use of an intoxicating pharmaceutical that has been known to cause liver damage in users.The promotion of behaviour that is clearly in breach of the precepts and is harmful, and may be illegal in certain jurisdictions is not condoned by David, myself and the Dhamma Wheel moderation team. The drug use "discussed" by the OP is completely contrary to the spirit and letter of the Theravada. There are no short-cuts on the path of Dhamma which require the development of sila, samadhi and panna.kind regards,

Ben

Learn this from the waters:in mountain clefts and chasms,loud gush the streamlets,but great rivers flow silently.

PS: I want to thank those members who expressed their concerns via the report function regarding this thread, as well as those who attempted to counter the OPs suggested practice on this thread.with metta,

Ben

Learn this from the waters:in mountain clefts and chasms,loud gush the streamlets,but great rivers flow silently.