I had seen and read (wrote*) that many followers of the great vehicle are teaching hope, grasping on hope, praising hope. I don't know a little about Sutras, so I like to ask you why is there teaching, grasping and praising of hope?

Is there any Buddha Dhrama that is teaching hope?Is there any Buddha Dharma that is leads to grasping on hope?Is there any Buddha Dharma that is praising hope?

Is there any Bodhisattva precept or vow that forces to teach hope?Is there any Bodhisattva precept or vow that keeps one grasping on hope?Is there any Bodhisattva precept or vow that forces the praising of hope?

(edit: no wrote sorry my english*)

Last edited by Hanzze on Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Hanzze wrote:I had seen and wrote that many followers of the great vehicle are teaching hope, grasping on hope, praising hope.

Trungpa Rinpoche (from Illusion's Game):

Creating this kind of hope is one of the most prominent features of spiritual materialism.…There are so many promises involved. So much hope is planted in your heart. This is playing on your weakness. It creates further confusion with regard to pain. You forget about the pain altogether and get involved in looking for something other than the pain. And that itself is pain.…That is what we will go through unless we understand that the basic requirement for treading the spiritual path is hopelessness.

Trungpa Rinpoche (from Crazy Wisdom):

We go on deeper and deeper and deeper till we reach the point where there is no answer. There is not even a question. Both question and answer die simultaneously at some point. They begin to rub each other too closely and they short circuit each other in some way. At that point, we tend to give up hope of an answer, or of anything whatsoever, for that matter. We have no more hope, none whatsoever. We are purely hopeless. We could call this transcending hope, if you would like to put it in more genteel terms.

The hopelessness is the essence of crazy wisdom. It is hopeless, utterly hopeless. It is beyond hopelessness. (Of course it would be possible, if we tried to turn that hopelessness itself into some kind of solution, to become confused again, to say the least.)

The process is of going further in and in and in without any reference point of spirituality, without any reference point of a saviour, without any reference point of goodness or badness - without any reference points whatsoever! Finally, we might reach the basic level of hopelessness, of transcending hope. This does not mean we end up zombies. We still have all the energies; we have all the fascination of discovery, of seeing this process unfolding and unfolding and unfolding, going on and on. This process of discovery automatically recharges itself so that we keep going deeper and deeper and deeper. This process of going deeper and deeper is the process of crazy wisdom, and it is what characterizes a saint in the Buddhist tradition.

I had seen and wrote that many followers of the great vehicle are teaching hope, grasping on hope, praising hope. I don't know a little about Sutras, so I like to ask you why is there teaching, grasping and praising of hope?

Is there any Buddha Dhrama that is teaching hope?Is there any Buddha Dharma that is leads to grasping on hope?Is there any Buddha Dharma that is praising hope?

Is there any Bodhisattva precept or vow that forces to teach hope?Is there any Bodhisattva precept or vow that keeps one grasping on hope?Is there any Bodhisattva precept or vow that forces the praising of hope?

Hi Friend

I hope you are well

There are such kinds of conventional sayings, but as to teachings I never came across a teachings that taught hope.

But there are teachings that teach causes and effects and therefore there may arise hopes that after having applied the right causes the right effects may arise in dependence on that But actually I cannot see a difference here between small and great vehicle since both manifest through their followers which are human beings of more or less "ordinary" types.

Actually setting out on a path that is considered to lead to a goal implies the hope that the corresponding goal can be reached by means of this path. Otherwise who would set out on a path that doesn't lead where one wants to arrive at?

This has led some to say "The path is the goal" but isn't that a goal anyway and isn't then starting to tread a path that one hasn't trodden before based on hope too?

"Path is non-path" is the response of some but here I suspect this saying being based on the hope that "hope is non-hope"

To develop bodhichitta, which is the actual practice, you need to develop such compassion that you simply cannot bear others being tormented by suffering. But in order to develop this compassion, you must know exactly how you yourself are plagued by suffering. And you must understand that the whole of samsara is by nature suffering. But first you must fear the lower realms, for without this you will have no repudiation of celestial and human happiness. You must therefore train your mind in the small- and medium- scope parts of the path. -- Pabongka Rinpoche

Creating this kind of hope is one of the most prominent features of spiritual materialism.…There are so many promises involved. So much hope is planted in your heart. This is playing on your weakness. It creates further confusion with regard to pain. You forget about the pain altogether and get involved in looking for something other than the pain. And that itself is pain.…That is what we will go through unless we understand that the basic requirement for treading the spiritual path is hopelessness.

Just as the questions are. No judgment, no attachment, like this girl, out of a childs pure heart.

I thought it was clear that it was never taught, never taught to grasp on it, never praised. So maybe my second question was to early and just out of my opinion taken from the quotes till now.

As far as I know, all Buddhist teachings indicate the possibility of a release from cyclic existence. For those who are trapped in the belief that there is no end to their pain, this is great hope indeed.

I just can't figure out how to resolve what Huifeng with this line of reasoning:

Hope is a form of expectation. If things go as expected there will be elation, followed by the suffering of change when the elation ends; if not then there will be direct suffering. Therefore hope is all about getting knotted up in samsara.

when it is like that, that hope is not taught, not taught to grasp, not praised by enlighten beings, please let me ask one more time, why is hope not taught, not taught to grasp on, not praised by enlighten beings?

When you look at the world and all its sufferings, you might give up the thought that things could be different from how they are. You would give up hope and lose heart in trying to improve things -but true cessations and true paths teach that things can be different. They teach you not to give up hope but simply to work on purifying your mind and all happiness and good results will come for ourselves and others.

Renunciation is a message of hopeBodhichitta is a message of hopeEmptiness is a message of hopeTantra is a message of hope - because of it I can become a pure being.

All suffering comes from impure minds, and all happiness from pure minds. If we work to purify our mind using the methods of sutra and tantra that Buddha taught, we will eventually attain the Pure Land and be able to help all living beings attain the same. This, for me, is a message of hope.

it might be that somebody is grasping on hope, but is he really on the way?It might be that somebody is grasping on future but will he come to the present?

It might be that some are using an aim to send some on the run, but where will they go?It might be that some use hope to keep people from going further, but will they arrive?

Full of hope one does nothing or he runs for an aim that does not exist.

Hope is an construction in the future, that does not exist. It has nothing to do with the present and it has nothing to do with the reality.

It might keep a dream alive, it might keep an illusion alive, it might be a reason the wandering-on, it might keep a religion alive.But could somebody seriously take it as something that was taught be an enlighten being?

Renunciation is not a matter of hope, to let go of hope is renunciation.Bodhichitta has no hope inside it is a chitta without hope and fear.Emptiness is not empty when there is hope, hope may fill all the space of your mind.

It might be one of the skill fullest Tantric practice to cut ones hope of.

With hope we are not able even to help our self, and hope has never healed a single pain.

Dear Tsongkhapafan,

it might be your feeling even it might be ones way, but is there a Sutra of an enlighten being which is promoting being to hope?

I had seen and wrote that many followers of the great vehicle are teaching hope, grasping on hope, praising hope. I don't know a little about Sutras, so I like to ask you why is there teaching, grasping and praising of hope?

Is there any Buddha Dhrama that is teaching hope?Is there any Buddha Dharma that is leads to grasping on hope?Is there any Buddha Dharma that is praising hope?

Is there any Bodhisattva precept or vow that forces to teach hope?Is there any Bodhisattva precept or vow that keeps one grasping on hope?Is there any Bodhisattva precept or vow that forces the praising of hope?

Hi Friend

I hope you are well

There are such kinds of conventional sayings, but as to teachings I never came across a teachings that taught hope.

But there are teachings that teach causes and effects and therefore there may arise hopes that after having applied the right causes the right effects may arise in dependence on that But actually I cannot see a difference here between small and great vehicle since both manifest through their followers which are human beings of more or less "ordinary" types.

Actually setting out on a path that is considered to lead to a goal implies the hope that the corresponding goal can be reached by means of this path. Otherwise who would set out on a path that doesn't lead where one wants to arrive at?

This has led some to say "The path is the goal" but isn't that a goal anyway and isn't then starting to tread a path that one hasn't trodden before based on hope too?

"Path is non-path" is the response of some but here I suspect this saying being based on the hope that "hope is non-hope"

Kind regards

Yes, there is neither optimism nor pessimism in teaching, for example, karma.

If we create the causes and conditions for the relief of suffering and experience some joy, optimism may result in that we understand that more joy may arise from causes and conditions we may create.

But it is better to be mindful of our actions and be motivated by the benefit of others than to 'hope' optimistically for our own happiness.

For ourselves, if we believe that there is a path to enligthtenment and that enlightenment may be attained by any being, then we need some optimism that we also can attain it or we would not follow the path.

In that sense, teachings which assert that a person may become enlightened through practice requires no hope, but may well be the (useful?) cause of it anyway in beings which have not yet reached a state of tranquil abiding and the quenching of desire.

The bolder words are concepts I have come across in the teachings. There is the aspiration for awakening, for example, or in Mahayana the aspiration to save sentient beings. There is the desire that fuels suffering (the "bad" kind?) and then there is the desire one should generate in pursuit of the goal to awaken. Faith is "saddha" and is not blind faith, but the kind of faith you cultivate through practice. I was once given the analogy of sitting in a chair you've sat in before. You have faith that the 10,000th time you sit in the chair it won't collapse(yet can you be certain?)

There is the wish for other beings to be well, but tempered by the right understanding that their happiness does not depend on your wish, but their own karma.

when it is like that, that hope is not taught, not taught to grasp, not praised by enlighten beings, please let me ask one more time, why is hope not taught, not taught to grasp on, not praised by enlighten beings?

It seems, Hanzze, that you are overlooking or ignoring some of the posts above, when you say "when it is like that, that hope is not taught ... why is hope not taught...?"