This trailer offers a look at the "Beast of America" in BioShock Infinite, Irrational Games' upcoming first-person shooter sequel (thanks nin via Kotaku). Word is: "See more of the streets (and skies) of Columbia, new ways to use your Sky-Hook and how Elizabeth can be your wingman in combat."

Prez wrote on Oct 22, 2012, 02:09:A lot of pooh-poohing of this game, but I can't help but still be excited. I really liked the Bioshock games (yes even 2!) - call me crazy.

Since I didn't really like the first one, as I have stated before, I can't get real excited about this one. However, I will wait until post launch and see what everyone is saying (forums / reviews) before I'd dismiss it altogether.

Bioshock 2 had the same major flaw that the original had. It became way too formulaic. In the first game, every area played out the same way. You find a Little Sister, kill her Big Daddy, harvest/free her, rinse and repeat. In Bioshock 2, you find a Little Sister, bring her to a corpse, defend her while she harvests the corpse, rinse and repeat. The whole experience became way too formulaic and predictable. This was tolerable in the first game because the setting was so novel, but Bioshock 2 didn't really have that novelty. The story also felt tacked on, which it pretty much was because Levine never intended for Bioshock to have a direct sequel.

While I'm a little disappointed to see how strongly Bioshock Infinite appears to hearken back to Bioshock rather than new game mechanics, the trailer suggests complicated, dynamic combat mechanics set in a rich, dark universe with thick yet interesting theming.

I'm pretty sure they've already cut multiplayer, so this is all a moot point anyway. However, the implementation of the skylines wasn't the reason it was cut. I still don't really understand why you think having rails in a multiplayer game is something only a PC could do when there are plenty of console multiplayer games that feature much more demanding physics calculations.

This isn't a debate over whether or not console multiplayer games are good. It's about the technical capabilities of consoles. For example, if it was announced that Rome 2: Total War was going to be a multiplatform release, that would be a genuine reason for concern because the Total War games are very CPU and GPU intensive. Consoles could not feature as many units while maintaining a decent framerate, so the scale of the game would have to be toned down. Supreme Commander 2 is a good example of this. The skylines in Bioshock Infinite are not GPU or CPU intensive so they are not reason for concern.

Jerykk wrote on Oct 21, 2012, 23:40:From a physics standpoint, the rails are simple. The player attaches to a static, non-kinematic rail and moves in a set trajectory at a set speed along that rail. It's really not complex at all because there aren't a lot of variables involved. GTA4, Read Redemption Redemption and Max Payne 3 have to do more complex physics calculations and those were all designed for consoles. The skylines in Infinite are essentially rollercoasters. There's nothing dynamic about them at all. The only thing the player can do is attach and detach from them.

That would be pretty insane if the rails did move. Sure, of course their static, but it's still highly physics based calculations over extremely large areas.

I haven't heard a single good thing about multiplayer (coop doesn't count obviously) in any of those games, on console. Except it exists. Why would anyone play multiplayer on a console instead of a PC. Saying something is good on a console is like saying something was good on PC 10 years (scale is really about 6) ago. In gta4 was the first to have 16 iirc, but we had 16 back in 1995 or so. I just don't get how the console limitation isn't a factor. They would have to reduce the graphic quality and special effects, so much it would look like a 2001 game.

Not to mention most PC players go out of their way to turn off Autoaim. Hell people complained about GTA4 and MP3 on PC. Guess we will see, soon enough. Despite your optimism and rosey glasses, there's no way in hell it will work, much less well, on a console.

Jerykk wrote on Oct 21, 2012, 21:45:It's called aim assist..? If the E3 2011 demo is any indication, the skyline system has tons of assists when you jump from rail to rail (to the point where you can't actually miss) and when aiming at enemies. It has nothing to do with a console's hardware capabilities and everything to do with basic usability design. The PC version will have the same skyline assists as the console versions. I imagine the PC version will allow you to turn off the aim assist but that's pretty much the only difference. If a console game like BF3 or Halo can handle vehicles, I'm pretty sure consoles can handle a completely scripted rail system.

I'm not really sure why you think the multiplayer implementation would be hugely different between platforms. Console games tend to use P2P hosting, sure, but a lot of PC games do too. In fact, console multiplayer may actually be easier to implement because you know everyone is using the same hardware and software, whereas on PC you can have wildly varying hardware and software configurations.

Sure aim assist has always been a console mainstay, due to one of many of it's weaknesses. I'm thinking of things like physics, which among other things (power, graphics and networking) make it MUCH easier to implement something like this on a PC. It just seems like an obvious limitation and as mentioned there isn't any foundation for a console doing this I recall. Yet fast moving multiplayer with grappling? It's been done on the PC, but afaik it didn't work well at all on the console, Just Cause 2 (now up to 1000 peeps).

From a physics standpoint, the rails are simple. The player attaches to a static, non-kinematic rail and moves in a set trajectory at a set speed along that rail. It's really not complex at all because there aren't a lot of variables involved. GTA4, Read Redemption Redemption and Max Payne 3 have to do more complex physics calculations and those were all designed for consoles. The skylines in Infinite are essentially rollercoasters. There's nothing dynamic about them at all. The only thing the player can do is attach and detach from them.

nin wrote on Oct 21, 2012, 13:48:On the one hand it looks neat, but it also pretty much looks like a reskin of Bioshock (esp the opening scene, as the boat approaches a lighthouse, while the player looks at personal effects).

That's obviously an intentional callback to Bioshock 1 used to contrast where the lighthouse leads (up vs down).

Jerykk wrote on Oct 21, 2012, 21:45:It's called aim assist..? If the E3 2011 demo is any indication, the skyline system has tons of assists when you jump from rail to rail (to the point where you can't actually miss) and when aiming at enemies. It has nothing to do with a console's hardware capabilities and everything to do with basic usability design. The PC version will have the same skyline assists as the console versions. I imagine the PC version will allow you to turn off the aim assist but that's pretty much the only difference. If a console game like BF3 or Halo can handle vehicles, I'm pretty sure consoles can handle a completely scripted rail system.

I'm not really sure why you think the multiplayer implementation would be hugely different between platforms. Console games tend to use P2P hosting, sure, but a lot of PC games do too. In fact, console multiplayer may actually be easier to implement because you know everyone is using the same hardware and software, whereas on PC you can have wildly varying hardware and software configurations.

Sure aim assist has always been a console mainstay, due to one of many of it's weaknesses. I'm thinking of things like physics, which among other things (power, graphics and networking) make it MUCH easier to implement something like this on a PC. It just seems like an obvious limitation and as mentioned there isn't any foundation for a console doing this I recall. Yet fast moving multiplayer with grappling? It's been done on the PC, but afaik it didn't work well at all on the console, Just Cause 2 (now up to 1000 peeps).

Acleacius wrote on Oct 21, 2012, 16:42:The troubled development has me worried, but still interested. Sad if true, to hear console is the lead platform, never a good sign on any game and sounds like 2k. It would explain a lot, why there was troubled development, i.e. trying to implement multiplayer Rail System for consoles, could very well be why so many are leaving Irrational.

The Rail System dynamic will probably be the key, if 2k is just another crap publisher like ea trying to force multiplayer. At the expense of quality production (i.e. gameplay and stablity), they will take a pretty big hit. If they cared about their game franchise maybe they should just release multiplayer as an addon after 3 months or however long it takes to get balanced.

Err, why would implementing a rail system in multiplayer be any more difficult on consoles than PC? You can blame consoles for the outdated visuals, level size, etc, but implementing the rail system in multiplayer would be equally difficult on console and PC.

Anyway, I'd like to see another proper walkthrough demo. The last one was from E3 2011 and was apparently created just for E3. I'd like to see one from the actual game.

Well, not that I'm a console expert but I don't think I've ever heard of even a normal deathmatch which was easier to implement on console than PC. Not to mention the Rail System looked extremely fast, at least from the videos. Additionally the aiming mechanics, while fast moving and essentially using a grappling system all at the same time seems to me to be WAY beyond a consoles ability system and functionality wise.

I've certainly never heard of a multiplayer console game implementing something even close. Whatever the game, if it exist was it stable at release?

It's called aim assist..? If the E3 2011 demo is any indication, the skyline system has tons of assists when you jump from rail to rail (to the point where you can't actually miss) and when aiming at enemies. It has nothing to do with a console's hardware capabilities and everything to do with basic usability design. The PC version will have the same skyline assists as the console versions. I imagine the PC version will allow you to turn off the aim assist but that's pretty much the only difference. If a console game like BF3 or Halo can handle vehicles, I'm pretty sure consoles can handle a completely scripted rail system.

I'm not really sure why you think the multiplayer implementation would be hugely different between platforms. Console games tend to use P2P hosting, sure, but a lot of PC games do too. In fact, console multiplayer may actually be easier to implement because you know everyone is using the same hardware and software, whereas on PC you can have wildly varying hardware and software configurations.

Acleacius wrote on Oct 21, 2012, 16:42:The troubled development has me worried, but still interested. Sad if true, to hear console is the lead platform, never a good sign on any game and sounds like 2k. It would explain a lot, why there was troubled development, i.e. trying to implement multiplayer Rail System for consoles, could very well be why so many are leaving Irrational.

The Rail System dynamic will probably be the key, if 2k is just another crap publisher like ea trying to force multiplayer. At the expense of quality production (i.e. gameplay and stablity), they will take a pretty big hit. If they cared about their game franchise maybe they should just release multiplayer as an addon after 3 months or however long it takes to get balanced.

Err, why would implementing a rail system in multiplayer be any more difficult on consoles than PC? You can blame consoles for the outdated visuals, level size, etc, but implementing the rail system in multiplayer would be equally difficult on console and PC.

Anyway, I'd like to see another proper walkthrough demo. The last one was from E3 2011 and was apparently created just for E3. I'd like to see one from the actual game.

Well, not that I'm a console expert but I don't think I've ever heard of even a normal deathmatch which was easier to implement on console than PC. Not to mention the Rail System looked extremely fast, at least from the videos. Additionally the aiming mechanics, while fast moving and essentially using a grappling system all at the same time seems to me to be WAY beyond a consoles ability system and functionality wise.

I've certainly never heard of a multiplayer console game implementing something even close. Whatever the game, if it exist was it stable at release?

Acleacius wrote on Oct 21, 2012, 16:42:The troubled development has me worried, but still interested. Sad if true, to hear console is the lead platform, never a good sign on any game and sounds like 2k. It would explain a lot, why there was troubled development, i.e. trying to implement multiplayer Rail System for consoles, could very well be why so many are leaving Irrational.

The Rail System dynamic will probably be the key, if 2k is just another crap publisher like ea trying to force multiplayer. At the expense of quality production (i.e. gameplay and stablity), they will take a pretty big hit. If they cared about their game franchise maybe they should just release multiplayer as an addon after 3 months or however long it takes to get balanced.

Err, why would implementing a rail system in multiplayer be any more difficult on consoles than PC? You can blame consoles for the outdated visuals, level size, etc, but implementing the rail system in multiplayer would be equally difficult on console and PC.

Anyway, I'd like to see another proper walkthrough demo. The last one was from E3 2011 and was apparently created just for E3. I'd like to see one from the actual game.

The troubled development has me worried, but still interested. Sad if true, to hear console is the lead platform, never a good sign on any game and sounds like 2k. It would explain a lot, why there was troubled development, i.e. trying to implement multiplayer Rail System for consoles, could very well be why so many are leaving Irrational.

The Rail System dynamic will probably be the key, if 2k is just another crap publisher like ea trying to force multiplayer. At the expense of quality production (i.e. gameplay and stablity), they will take a pretty big hit. If they cared about their game franchise maybe they should just release multiplayer as an addon after 3 months or however long it takes to get balanced.

Terrible music. Too bad they went with the Xbox as the lead development platform because it shows. The game already looks like it's 5 years old at least. And yeah, I didn't see anything in that remotely made me want to play it. Quite the opposite in fact.

"During times of universal deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act."