Logically the premiss is a proposing that NATO must be terminated. The reason behind that is, that EU and the USA are deadly enemies, is a hypothetical which needs to be validated, since it is implausible to assume it's common knowledge.

Finally, even if the above propositions are validated, it is no certainty that there may be direct correlation between economic and mutually defensive associations. Therefore, I voted 'No', although until clarifications are forthcoming re: the above.

[size=50][/size]Allone's Obe issance

In answer to your prayersincere, the centre ofyour circle here,i stand ; and , withouttaking thought,-i know nothing. But i can

Full well your need-asyou be menThis: Re-Creation. With abow,Then, your obedient

Voted no. NATO isn't an economic agreement, it's a military alliance. "Deadly enemies" is a bit of poetic wording to make it appear as though economic issues and military issues are combined when they are not. Economic rivals can be military allies.

The US and the EU are not deadly enemies. the means of economics is trading andthe US and the EU are trading partners, which means they make money off each other.Sure they hit their rough patches but overall they need each other economically andthat will keep Nato in business long after its needed. And as for putin, as long as Russia has delusions of grander, Nato will be needed. The EU by itself cannot hold offany type of Russian attack. Militarily, the EU needs the US. The fear of Russia will keep Nato in business.

Kropotkin

"Those who sacrifice liberty for securitywind up with neither." "Ben Franklin"

On top of that, prior to the meltdown of relations between Nato members and Russia, Russia was a NATO conference 'observer', with even talk of having her become a permanent member. there were discussions going on in Brussels, over the relevance of NATO, when there are no reasons for it to continue, since the demise of Communism. However, NATO could still have retained symbolic significance , of usefullness, by retaining it's function as a sort of world police force. Here again the dual aspect of symbol and signification props up in context.

[size=50][/size]Allone's Obe issance

In answer to your prayersincere, the centre ofyour circle here,i stand ; and , withouttaking thought,-i know nothing. But i can

Full well your need-asyou be menThis: Re-Creation. With abow,Then, your obedient

The EU has no fear of Russia, because Russia isn't militarily strong - apart from its nuclear weapons. And besides that: The EU could also arm itself. Why not?

The NATO was once founded as an alliance of defence, at least it was said so (and as usual a lie), but more and more it became obvious that it was an alliance of attack and even the most aggressive attack alliance of all times. We have been becoming aware of it at least since the Attack on Vietnam.

Okay, if the existence of the NATO has not to be terminated, then it has to be reformed - as well as the EU.

Otherwise:

... and so on.

Last edited by Arminius on Mon Dec 01, 2014 6:32 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Peter Kropotkin wrote:the question also misses the little Russian problem. Putin is bat shit crazy and could pull the trigger just to boosthis ego.

Kropotkin

Arminius wrote:The question misses nothing.

Peter Kropotkin wrote:K: a bit sensitive are we?

You are sensitive? Okay, then I give you a cuter example:

A: „How old are you, K.?“K: „The question also misses the place where I was born.“A: „The question misses nothing.“....Headshrinker: „K, would you please tell A how old you are?“

K: gladly, I am 55. I am old enough to remember having drills in class, where we practice hidingunder the desk in case of a nukes from the mean old soviet union. Yep, our desk would save us froma nuclear holocaust.

Kropotkin

"Those who sacrifice liberty for securitywind up with neither." "Ben Franklin"

Arminius wrote:It is not advisable to consider, and especially to assess military and economy only separately.

Maybe not, but a military 'enemy' is not the same thing as an economic 'enemy', and to call two groups 'deadly enemies' is hyperbolic when talking about the latter sense. In the sense in which NATO matters, the US and EU aren't enemies. In the sense in which they are economic 'enemies', there's nothing 'deadly' about it to provoke the comparison.

It would be like asking if New York or Massachusetts should seceed from the union because the Yankees and the Red Sox are 'deadly enemies'.

Arminius wrote:It is not advisable to consider, and especially to assess military and economy only separately.

Maybe not, but a military 'enemy' is not the same thing as an economic 'enemy', and to call two groups 'deadly enemies' is hyperbolic when talking about the latter sense. In the sense in which NATO matters, the US and EU aren't enemies. In the sense in which they are economic 'enemies', there's nothing 'deadly' about it to provoke the comparison.

It would be like asking if New York or Massachusetts should seceed from the union because the Yankees and the Red Sox are 'deadly enemies'.

No, that's wrong, and you know that it is wrong!

B.t.w.: What would you think, if your "friend" is vitsiting and at the same time robbing you?

Last edited by Arminius on Wed Dec 03, 2014 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Arminius, before there was trade between adjacent villages, there were only skirmishes over differences of unfairness. now the village has gone global, and the most that such unfairness can garner, is some protectionist tax. Before international trade agreements, countries would go to war with each other. Some examples are the Opium Wars of the British Empire with China, the rubner wars of the USA and Vietnam, the oil wars with the Middle East, and the list goes on. NATO is important, even if there is in some persons opinion, no relationship between economics and international security. however, what makes anyone think, that if trade agreements are broken, economic pressures do not force governments to engage in saber rattling rhetoric or action? now, more then ever, with the attempted equalization of the global economy, the world needs teeth to sink into the petty thefts of countries accused of misappropriation, especially theft of foreign aid, consumer product espionage, of illicit printing of forged currency, not to speak of international narcotic trade, human investiture and trafficking of young girls , pirating on the high seas? downing of airlines to serve political ends, and the button still on the nuclear option,as a way of swinging big time threats to unbelievers? is not Nato if nothing else, a big stick of which Theodore Roosevelt spoke as a requirement for governance of imperium? And the US is an imperium, needing allies to control the world , absent of which, the vacum it would leave behind, would for sure ascertain a real catastrophe of no presdedent? There is, clearly, more to the idea, that whereas they are different, economics and defense are primordially related.

[size=50][/size]Allone's Obe issance

In answer to your prayersincere, the centre ofyour circle here,i stand ; and , withouttaking thought,-i know nothing. But i can

Full well your need-asyou be menThis: Re-Creation. With abow,Then, your obedient

Arminius wrote:It is not advisable to consider, and especially to assess military and economy only separately.

Maybe not, but a military 'enemy' is not the same thing as an economic 'enemy', and to call two groups 'deadly enemies' is hyperbolic when talking about the latter sense. In the sense in which NATO matters, the US and EU aren't enemies. In the sense in which they are economic 'enemies', there's nothing 'deadly' about it to provoke the comparison.

It would be like asking if New York or Massachusetts should seceed from the union because the Yankees and the Red Sox are 'deadly enemies'.

No, that's wrong, and you know that it is wrong!

B.t.w.: What would you think, if your "friend" is vitsiting and at the same time robing you?

Maybe I don't have all the facts- if you think the relationship between the US and the EU is comparable to robbery, tell me how.

Arminius wrote:It is not advisable to consider, and especially to assess military and economy only separately.

Maybe not, but a military 'enemy' is not the same thing as an economic 'enemy', and to call two groups 'deadly enemies' is hyperbolic when talking about the latter sense. In the sense in which NATO matters, the US and EU aren't enemies. In the sense in which they are economic 'enemies', there's nothing 'deadly' about it to provoke the comparison.

It would be like asking if New York or Massachusetts should seceed from the union because the Yankees and the Red Sox are 'deadly enemies'.

No, that's wrong, and you know that it is wrong!

B.t.w.: What would you think, if your "friend" is vitsiting and at the same time robing you?

Uccisore wrote:[Maybe I don't have all the facts- if you think the relationship between the US and the EU is comparable to robbery, tell me how.

Yes, you don't have all the facts. After bombing Europe (especially Germany and robbing it, cp. the robbed millions of patents, masterpieces, knowledge, scientists and technicians [by blackmailing them], and - amongst much others - territories [cp. the forced displacement of about 20,000,000 Germans] and the whole gold of the German Reich) you have been bombing it with immigrants because (you know) that it will weaken it sooner or later. Why should we again defence the USA by sacrificing all European people?

Arminius wrote:

James S Saint wrote:

Arminius wrote:Wernher von Braun was a Nazi - have you forgotten that? -, and after the World War II he was blackmailed: „either you help the USA or you will be put in prison“! His crew were also blackmailed. They all prefered to help the USA because they did not want to be jailed.

Other German scientists, technicians, engineers etc. were treated similarly - not only in the USA, but also e.g. in the USSR.

Do you have any references for that? (not that I seriously doubt it)

Yes, I have. And there are also documentary films and the fact that all these Germans came to the US in May 1945 and lived there in a city which was founded just for that reason. Google for example this: Operation Paperclip or Operation Overcast.

Operation Paperclip was the Office of Strategic Services (OSS) program in which more than 1,500 German scientists, technicians, and engineers were brought from Germany to the United States for employment after the World War II. It was conducted by the Joint Intelligence Objectives Agency (JIOA). In other words: It was a criminal act, one criminal act of the other crimninal acts of the greatest raid of all time.

Nearly similar is the number of the German scientists, technicians, and engineers who were brought in the Soviet Union (USSR) after the World War II.

The reasons why there is still no peace treaty to end the Second World War have also to do with those historical facts I described above. And why and for whom is it advantageous (cui bono?) that enemies of the Second World War which has not ended (because there is no peace treaty) became suddenly and remain partners, although one of this partners (Germany) always has to pay reparations, redemptions, reinstatement etc.? And since about thh 1960's this partner has been sacrificing its people again, this time by abortion and enslaving to make a way for immigrants from countries which are bombed by the USA and Israel.

I like the US people of all time - but not the US politics since 1913!

Last edited by Arminius on Wed Dec 03, 2014 6:57 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Furthermore there is a Trojan horse (Turkey) in the NATO, and 2004 the EU got a Trojan donkey (Poland) of the USA.

Arminius wrote:Do you remember what happened after the so called "Cold War" relating to the former members of the USSR? Many states of the erstwhile Eastern Bloc came back into the Western control, and the Westerners agreed to the Russian will to control all - except the Baltic - erstwhile members of the USSR. That was the deal. According to this deal it is not allowed that the ertswhle members of the USSR can also become a member of the EU, thus EUSSR.

You said that the "European Union and central bank is the United States bitch", and Nietzsche said that the state is the coldest of all cold monsters. ("Staat heisst das kälteste aller kalten Ungeheuer." - Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche, "Also sprach Zarathustra", 1883, S. 57). Can monsters have bitches?

The Fed is even one of the main monsters, a private one and very schizophrenic.

You said that the "NATO is the United States lapdog" and I add: this lapdog is a very aggressive one and very schizophrenic.

Last edited by Arminius on Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

You said that the "European Union and central bank is the United States bitch", and Nietzsche said that the state is the coldest of all cold monsters. ("Staat heisst das kälteste aller kalten Ungeheuer." - Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche, "Also sprach Zarathustra", 1883, S. 57). Can monsters have bitches?

The Fed is even one of the main monsters, a private one and very schizophrenic.

You said that the "NATO is the United States lapdog" and I add: the lapdog is a very aggressive one and very schizophrenic.

After World War II they were already talking about devising the European Union in 1949.

As usual most people ignore or are too ignorant of the real players in control of things.

The European central bank just like the Japanese one takes its orders from the United States Federal Reserve.

Coming Out Live Streaming Online From The Global Gulag, Asylum, Police State, And Oligarchical Plantation Near You.

This makes sense Arminius, so do You not see , eventually, post Angela Merkel, an opportunist will see a hole here, and once the EU is in the position to help Germany's rearmament, to strike out a political stance entirely dialectically opposite from the previous econo-political co operation. But instead of getting rid of NATO at that point, a ce session from NATO a would be more likely,mal though there may occur between then and now a breakdown in relationships with allies of Germany, leading to a planned breakdown do to a miscalculation of sorts.England too, may break off after rethinking it's schizophrenic position between the EUROPEAN and the US. I am not saying this will happen, only that it might. But then EU has to increase it's military budget to the extent that it can finance a major war with Tussia who just may get ideas of reasserting it's power over the Baltics and other assets in Europe. This is why,mperhapsmtook up the reins of leadership, like a smart ex KGB guy, and I think You and Laughing Man are on to something,nor which everyone is holding their breaths. How a desperate US may react if such a scenario would play out, is another question mark, it may just receede to a Wilsonian type of neutrality, and adopt a do it yourself attitude. This Is where the antichrist will show it's face, and let it all hang out. However the likelihood of all this going down in this particular way is not overly convincing. I don't know.

[size=50][/size]Allone's Obe issance

In answer to your prayersincere, the centre ofyour circle here,i stand ; and , withouttaking thought,-i know nothing. But i can

Full well your need-asyou be menThis: Re-Creation. With abow,Then, your obedient