Windows 8.1 and the Desktop: A modest improvement we still can’t recommend

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When the ExtremeTech staff met in October 2012 to divvy up Windows 8 coverage assignments, I volunteered to tackle the specific question of how Metro and Desktop applications would integrate and share information with each other. The answer? “Terribly.” So, 12 months later, with Windows 8.1 now available, has the situation improved to any measurable degree?

Let’s find out, starting with one of the most egregious offenders — the Windows 8 Photos app.

The Photos app was a comically non-functional piece of software. For example, if you opened a directory of photos anywhere but in the C:\Users\UserName\Pictures\ location, it refused to allow keyboard browsing using the left/right arrow keys. Images couldn’t be dynamically resized, but all images were blown up to a seemingly arbitrary width. The app completely lacked an “Open With…” option to at least give the end user the option to choose something better. Most of these issues persisted straight up to today’s launch.

The Windows 8.1 Photo app, I’m happy to say, is a completely different animal. Gone are the obnoxious restrictions on directory browsing, the arbitrary resizing, and the complete lack of functionality. Files, including those on completely different hard drives, can now be edited. There’s even a prominent “Open With…” button. In short, all of the major issues we had with the application are gone — save one. Photos still refuses to acknowledge that users might have previous photo directories.

Photos is one of the most improved experiences, but far from the only one. Mail now allows users to compose missives in something other than a full-screen Window, allows for drag-and-drop mail moving, and you can view attachments to a message without jumping entirely out of the application. Metro Mail, however, still can’t talk to the desktop — if you try to send an email from the Desktop without another mail client installed, Windows will tell you there’s no mail client capable of performing that action.

The People App’s interface has been overhauled, and the News App is now capable of generating email links that people without Windows 8 can read. This last is huge; the News app was one of our favorites from Windows 8, but the only people who could read shared links were people who had Windows 8 as well. In short, a lot of the things that were broken in Windows 8 are now fixed in Windows 8.1. We’re glad to see it.

Search is still fractured

The two images are both in a subdirectory of C:\Users. The other files I scattered across various drives aren’t picked up in Metro

Unfortunately, Metro and Desktop environments remain completely disconnected in some critical ways, despite the Windows 8.1 overhaul. When you start typing a search in Window 8.1, the default is “Everything.” The default lies. “Everything” appears to mean “Everything within the Windows 8.1 C:\Users\UserName\” space. As a default, this makes perfect sense — that’s where most people will keep their files.

The problem is, if you’ve ever migrated from one desktop to another (or use a second drive), your OS almost certainly doesn’t conform to this pattern, particularly if you use a small primary SSD backed up to a larger conventional spinner. Windows 8.1 Search treats these as they don’t exist. This kind of baked-in rigidity is fundamentally infuriating. The problem isn’t unique to Microsoft’s own applications — Adobe Photoshop Express can’t be told to find photos in other locations. Nor can any other Metro photo app, near as I can tell.

On the positive side, searching the system now brings up Bing results by default, which can be quite handy. It’s Google’s “Searchable URL bar” taken to its logical conclusion — now you can search the Web from the OS. Just hit the Windows key, start typing, and pick a result. I called for this type of integration in my articles on the Windows Store, and it’s done well here.You can disable this behavior if you don’t like it, and Google may cry foul at some point over the fact that you can’t change your default search engine, but the general functionality is good.

Less great is the fact that searching from the Start Screen no longer offers you the option to search in a single application. In Windows 8, you could choose to run the “Dogs” search in Wikipedia. Now, you have to launch the Wikipedia app first.

On the whole, Search functions seem to have gotten better, but the Charm’s capability has simultaneously contracted and expanded, in opposite directions.

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mranjith

” A modest improvement we still can’t recommend”

thank you for being honest about this windows 8.1 grabage.

Liz Young

Running 8 since it came out without a single issue or problem related to the OS. Unfortunately idiots can’t figure out that the “metro” interface is touch friendly and still usable without a touch screen. I guess you’re stuck in the past and can’t learn something new. How f’ing hard is it to press the Windows key on your keyboard and type the first few letters of the App you want to run??? Instead you would rather have a start button with a pop-up that leads you through a menu system to manually search for your app because in your little brain that seems to make more sense??? Get with the future and embrace change. Or go back to the cartoon interface of your iOS garbage. Simple OS for simple brains.

Joel Hruska

The question is not whether I can learn something new, but whether the something new works well.

Windows 7 remembers every single window position when you minimize to taskbar. If you alt-tab in Windows 8, it forgets them. Metro apps must be re-dragged and replaced.

Microsoft could fix this by allowing users to save desktop positions. Give me the option to set a key that swaps to a particular desktop layout, with IM+ on the left, my Desktop in the middle, Skydrive on the right. Problem solved. W8.1 doesn’t have one.

You can set the system to automatically go to “Apps” instead of Start, but there is no keyboard command to jump down to the “Apps” menu after you hit Start. If you regularly use both, that’s annoying. Yes, I can mouse and hit a small button, but I prefer not to.

Search is extremely literal in W8 / 8.1. Misspellings don’t bring up apps — so you have to sometimes search the views. This is made difficult by non-differentiated font colors unless you change the theme.

I am fine with the idea that you like the OS and find the concerns less pressing, but the fact that they exist is not because people refuse to learn how to use them. Metro apps waste far more screen space and offer less functionality than desktop equivalents, and this has not changed in W8.1.

patti livernash

My Uncle Evan got an almost new blue Jeep Wrangler SUV by working part time online from home… his response w­w­w.J­A­M­20.c­o­m

Robin Persaud

Joel, if you are like me and dislike Modern UI / metro apps, don’t use them. Right-click on an image file and set the default to Windows Photo Viewer. Right-click on sound file and set the default to WMP / Winamp / iTunes / VLC / whatever. Same for video, etc etc.

Also, isn’t search just as literal on Windows 7 and Windows Vista? If you mistype a word, it will not come up.

Remember, Classic Shell, Start8, and others are your friend. You will get the improved networking, work features, speed, etc and have a computer that works like your old Win7 box.

And if you feel like it, you can get some Modern UI apps.

Also – try Splashtop Streamer for iOS. You can install the small streamer portion on your PC, then use your iPad to connect to your Windows 8.1 PC from wherever … and use it as a pseudo tablet. Touch gestures etc are supported and passed to the PC. Very useful tool that allows me to use my PC and find information on it even when I am away from home (or having a beer on the deck!). Cheers!

Stocklone

Tab Enter to go from Start Screen to Apps Screen with the keyboard. If you don’t want to use the mouse, then don’t.

Tank Rothchild

Yes I would like the option to press the start button and do things the “old” way. Why shouldn’t I have that option?

jc

You do, it’s called classic shell or start8 or start menu 8 or start menu reviver, should I go on?

Tank Rothchild

Sounds like voodoo. Why should I trust my computer’s security to a 3rd party when it should be in my OS.

XenoSilvano

It is ridiculous that Windows 8 users out there should feel the need to resort to 3rd party start menu emulators just to regain the retro functionality of previous Windows OS’ that works better than the modern offering.

Tank Rothchild

Well said.

Techutante

Quite. How hard is it to let people who have been using an interface since 95 keep using the same interface that literally is just a list of desktop shortcuts. That can’t be painful coding.

jabein

because many fancy people out there have constantly bagged Microsoft for their Start menu as daggy and out of step with the times, noting how Apple iPads are so easy and so popular, so Microsoft reacted and launched Metro with a Desktop, which I think is incredibly intelligent combination and far better than Apple’s.
But hey, you can’t please everybody where everybody wants to use a PC running Windows.
PS: I am not negating the frustrating issues with the Metro Apps non-aware of the Desktop applications. That is rubbish. it is like having a PC of 2 personalities one not aware of the other.

Techutante

PS: OH GOD THAT! My girlfriend was yelling at her laptop last night for like an hour cause you can’t multitask for crap in the Metro interface, and she just ends up running everything in fake desktop mode anyway. Kinda shot themselves in the foot there. The one thing Windows always had going for it was the ability to run a jillion things on the screen all at once. But apparently if you even web browse it cuts off the sound from the other apps like Netflix.

The two corners and scrolling to the side of the screen making the thing pop out with practically no options on it, that’s sorta annoying. I’d rather just access that all from a single point, and I don’t like shit that pops up when you move the mouse around, cause most of the time you were just shoving the cursor off the screen to get it out of the way, and suddenly shit is popping up all over.

Robin Persaud

All valid points. Avoid the Modern UI Netflix app and just use http://www.netflix.com. The sound will not cut out when you click on something else or navigate away from it.

Turn off the hot corners and charms menu.

– Go to desktop (click Desktop button from Start Screen).
– Right click on taskbar at bottom of screen and select “Properties”.
– Click the “Navigation” tab.
– De-select (‘untick’) the following options:

–> When I point to the upper-right corner, show the charms.
–> When I click the upper-left corner, switch between my recent apps.

– Click OK.

Done. This is a one time only process per computer and you won’t have to reapply it until the next major Windows 8 release or service pack.

Techutante

Helpful, thanks. The other thing annoying her(and me trying to fix it) is the touch-pad gestures. I was reading that you might be able to registry hack them to disabled, but there’s no other way to stop menus from popping up if you “swipe right” or w/e.

Re Netflix: Yeah, but that defeats the purpose of putting apps in. That’s what she’s doing, because it’s the only way to multitask. It was dumb of MS to even put that in there if they weren’t going to be able to make it work in the background as an app.

Robin Persaud

I know, the touchpad issue annoys me to, have not investigated ways to kill the touch gestures.

Regarding the sound in the Netflix app, try ModerMix from Stardock. For only a few dollars, this program will allow you to run full screen apps in windows, which is great because then you can run multiple modern UI apps at once. It even allows that netflix app to keep playing sound in the background! (When you click away from it or start another program or app). I recommend it to anyone who uses Windows 8.

Stocklone

Go into properties on the taskbar. You can remove both hot corners at the top of the screen, set boot to desktop and have it open the Apps screen instead of the start screen.

GamerFromJump

iPads are easy. They are also *tablets*, which have a different work style than a desktop or laptop. Sticking a tablet-style interface on a PC makes no sense.

jabein

I use my laptop/tablet convertible for both work and play. in fact, all our home computers now are convertible tablets/laptops. we are professional people that need Microsoft Office, web browsing, Adobe and Flash, plus browse the web, do work, play music, connect our mobile phones, and share our home network drive. ONLY a Microsoft tablet/laptop can do all of this.
We also have an iPad and Sony Xperia tablet, so we are not one-side track. But we know what works best for what use. The iPad is good in some ways whilst the PC in a tablet/laptop form is great for other things.
For the users complaining about a tablet style in a “PC”, well you are right, does not make sense, that is UNLESS you owned a large touch screen PC (the all-in-one) which it all makes sense then. then again, you probably do not own one of these too and cannot see the value. We owned a HP top specs some 2 years now, still amazing, only makes more sense now with the new interface.
Basically, different devices have different uses, some have more uses than others. Microsoft is trying to throw both interfaces at the user and you are free to use whichever works for you. Stop complaining, simply continue to use your old product or jump ship to other products. No one is forcing you to BUY Microsoft.

un_aligned

No, it doesn’t. The start screen has greatly expanded functionality.

XenoSilvano

would you care to elaborate on your claim.

Maus Merryjest

Exactly.

CrankyMiddleAgedGuy2

Actually it works quite well. Pity MS relies on a 3rd party to fix their operating system.

http://www.cardinalphoto.com David Cardinal

My favorite add back is the 8gadgetpack, that adds back Gadgets, which I really missed in Windows 8.

Joel Hruska

Really?

Someone used Gadgets?

http://www.cardinalphoto.com David Cardinal

You bet. I love the Analog clock, the speedometer style meter for CPU & Memory, and the currencies (I travel overseas a lot and currencies matter).

Joel Hruska

Wow!

I had no idea. But I’m very jealous of my screen real estate.

The currency converters do sound useful. Didn’t one of the Windows — was it actually ME — have an analog clock option?

http://www.cardinalphoto.com David Cardinal

That’s the cool thing about gadgets. They live behind everything else. So you just use their space however you want. Most of the time I have the upper right free enough I can see them, if not, I drag whatever window is in front of them out of the way. So they “do no harm” visually. I think MS didn’t like that there is no place for them in Metro, and had some real or other security concerns, so it scrapped them, but they apparently still left the hooks so the 8gadget project (and others) could re-enable them.

I’m not sure about the older clock options, but going back to as far as the mid-90s, MS had a way to stick bits of web pages on your desktop behind everything else, so you could do something similar. That got axed at some point though.

Chris Shakal

Having dual monitors helps for me, I have my main monitor and I just put the gadgets on the secondary monitor.

Robin Persaud

Reminds me a lot of widgets on KDE. Those damn things are useful! :)

Chris Shakal

lol, I’m still using the cpu, clock, and weather gadgets.

Chris Shakal

lol, I’m still using the cpu, clock, and weather gadgets.

disqus_LdltIvJ9iW

Why should you have to deal with it in the first place, when it should be built into the OS? This is my point. I spent more time than I want to think about finding and trying the various Start menu utilities out there. I should not have had to.

TheDerpPolice

Shouldnt need a third party hack to restore functionality, which incidentally Microsoft could break any time with an update. This is why businesses won’t touch it as well – a third party start menu hack is not a solution to a first party problem.

robthom

w7

GamerFromJump

I like Classic Shell. I have also found it treats the desktop like an app; I can hit Windows-arrow to snap the classic desktop to part of the screen while apps sit on the other side or other screen. They seem to behave together better now.

Tim Tringle

LOL, if someone using a Mac had the same complaint and someone had to recommend a third party app to fix a GLARING issue with Finder, you would rip Apple a new one for it. But suddenly it’s OK for Microsoft to do something that you guys have long derided Apple and Macs for.

disqus_LdltIvJ9iW

No, you don’t need to go on, you need to get the point. The point is that third-party applications should not be necessary.

mranjith

Thank you Joel Hruska and Tank Rothchild, you both explained what I missed in my comment.

Matthew Wolstenholme

W8 is good on touch screen laptops

DasNeko

I find Windows 8 to work wonderful on both touchscreen and Non-touch screen (My new computer build will 100% be using windows 8.1

XenoSilvano

Oh just give some time, you’ll eventually end up hating it just like the rest of us.

XenoSilvano

Oh just give some time, you’ll eventually end up hating it just like the rest of us.

XenoSilvano

I swear that I’m going to loose my #### if they don’t do something about that start screen by Windows 9.

Matthew Wolstenholme

Been using it for a few months in my envy x2, more metro style apps would be good. And yes I still have w7 on my pc. Overall w8 isn’t as bad as it’s made out to be

Robin Persaud

Don’t hold your breath. Microsoft is attempting to unify interfaces on desktops, laptops, tablets, and consoles. I strongly recommend getting a free start menu replacement and change all your defaults to non-Modern UI apps to cope and make your PC act like Win7.

DasNeko

I won’t lol…The metro interface is just like a giant WORKING Start button

XenoSilvano

No its not.

Ray C

The only Windows-based device I’ve used that was touch screen was a Surface. The desktops and laptops I used were not touch, and Windows 8 works just fine for me.

komm

To me it seems it is dumbed down too much. I understand that most ppl have no idea what they are doing but why do i have to go though registry and modify policy and mess around in shell just to remove major annoyances. Hopefully win 9 lets you choose to install metro or not

robthom

“Simple OS for simple brains.”

Robin Persaud

Just curious – what are you tweaking that requires registry hacking? Maybe something I haven’t though of yet that might be useful to know…

Microsoft will never allow us to disable Modern UI / Metro. They are making too much money from touch based apps to turn back now.

Windows and Office are not the cash cows they once were, since people have the option of Mac, or Linux.

CrankyMiddleAgedGuy2

So much for the customer is right. MS seems to think, along with you, that the user is stupid for not appreciating their work of genius. That is why MS is going down the toilet, much to my chagrin.

Robin Persaud

I think it is more Microsoft wanting to make money. They looked at Apple, saw them making BILLIONS off apps on iPhone and iPad, and wanted some of that.

While I am still getting used to Modern UI, I just changed settings to make it more keyboard/mouse friendly – since I have no touch display.

robmoir

The issue is not “can I learn something new” but rather “why should I, when it isn’t fundamentally better than what I already have”?

Windows 8.1 isn’t offering me anything earth-shatteringly new over and above Windows 7. I don’t need Windows 8.x to run 64-bit apps. I don’t need it to run a secure operating system. I don’t need to run modern OS apps because I can do all the things I want from the desktop.

What can Windows 8 do for me that Windows 7 cannot do better already?

As for the “how f’ing hard is it to press the windows key on your keyboard and search” thing… Well to be fair it _was_ quite hard in Windows 8 as they f’cked up the search, now you mention it. Nice to see that’s finally been fixed in 8.1.

As for the whole concept of search compensating for an inadequate start menu in the first place… No. Just no.

I work in a college, as one of the network management team. We have several hundred apps installed across our network. All our student machines have all our general and student apps installed so a student can work wherever they want, no matter what course they’re on and resources they need. All the staff machines have the general apps, student apps and college line of business apps installed so any staff member can sit down at any staff machine and do their job.

Now I know that my college has photoshop installed on all the computers but we have thousands of new students and usually a good few new staff members each year who don’t know that, and yet would still like to edit a picture file. They don’t know what apps we have, so what do they type to start searching? Remember they don’t know we have Photoshop.

The idea that search excuses all the problems with the start screen is very much a red herring.

Robin Persaud

As a network management person, you know that:

– Microsoft has product lifecycle policy and only supports Operating Systems for a limited time. They focus their security fixes on newer products (Windows 8.1, Windows Server 2012 R2) then work backwards.

– You can inject desktop icons into the %allusersprofile%desktop folder (Windows Vista / 7 / 8) and they will automatically appear on ALL user desktops (including users who have never logged into that computer before). Do this via logon script from server, batch file from “C:ProgramDataMicrosoftWindowsStart MenuStartup” (which runs from all users), Task Scheduler, GPO, etc.

– Boots FAST and shuts down quickly – even on old hardware. I have a Core 2 Duo laptop with 4GB of RAM that boots Win8 in 30 seconds. Win7? 2 minutes.

Also, have you considered App-V? App-V allows an administrator to use a virtual machine (Win 8.1) to install an app – it monitors your actions down to changes in registry and file system, then packages them up.

You then upload the package to the App-V server, and target an Active Directory group.

When userx logs into ANY AD-connected computer, they see the new package on their Start Screen. When they click on it, the app – and all the settings and customizations you made – streams down and starts.

Many reasons to use Win 8 over Win 7, especially in a business / real work environment.

robmoir

I never disputed that there was some good stuff under the hood Robin, nor have I seen many other people do so. The problem has always been the, imo anyway, terrible UI, not the underpinning technology.

Robin Persaud

Was responding to your statement: What can Windows 8 do for me that Windows 7 cannot do better already?, and providing a possible solution to your desktop icon issue (if on the desktop, they don’t have to search).

UI is an acquired taste, markedly different from Win7. Wish they would allow us to customize the tile colours to something more subdued and professional.

ffinder

START BUTTON

IN WINDOWS 8.1 HAS

> > NO START MENU ! ! < <

START BUTTON:

WHAT A USELESS WASTE

OF TASKBAR SPACE ! !

CLICKING IT BRINGS

DULL METRO THAT

HIJACKS YOUR COMPUTER'S SCREEN ! !

SO . .

WINDOWS 8.1 STILL IS . .

. . AN EPIC FAIL . .

Win7fanatic

f off

God, what a f***ing ret@rd. Not only does he lack the intelligence to understand why people are complaining, but he pretends that a garbage interface is the future!

robthom

“Simple OS for simple brains.”

abee baby

IS YOUR SURNAME CORRECT SHOWING YOU TO BE A YOUNG FOUL MOUTHED, SEMI LITERATE, OBNOXIOUS, PATHETIC MORON OR ARE YOU A MORE MATURE ONE. EITHER WAY YOUR DISGUSTING GARBAGE DESTROYS ANY CREDIBILITY YOUR COMMENTS MAY HAVE.

wwd88888

Hitting a key and typing to launch and app is different from the DOS prompt how?

A touch interface should never requirement you to type anything unless it is to create new data.

jabein

no, you are wrong and over-simplistic. if anyone launched a product as you mention it would be a dud and a joke.

komm

well i have been using win 8 for 5 months now and i still cant find anything.
MS shouldnt try to fix something that is not broken.. win 7 was functional, win 8 is a bloody mess..

I think it’s the person who can’t comprehend the point of view of others. The Start menu (thank you, Classic Shell) provides a neat, concise view of all the things that go with a particular application I have. All web links, documents, etc. without the need for the messy, crap-looking Modern UI screen, which I detest.

Danny Fitzsimmons

oh yeah work according to Microsoft. do as they say not as you want, I can see you are not a power user I don’t dislike metro 8.1 totally I use start8 to get through many of windows 8 shortcomings however customization in metro sucks totally you cant change the full graphic of the tile and if it is not part of MS apps then you can only resize it 1 of 2 ways whereas MS apps you have 4 options this is strictly a MS greed factor and they should be scolded for this atrocity against their users. they have made a few enhancements however they need to get their brains out of their pockets.

Duke Nuke Em

Liz, since you obviously are a computer noob you might want to tone your attitude down a bit. Close your mouth and listen to what people are saying before you spout off your retarded thoughts thinking you are some kinda of tech guru. Although I do agree with you that iOS isn’t a good OS either, I think you should finish Middle School, High School, College, and get a career job so you have a little wisdom behind your words before you post here again because it is clear you don’t understand the real issues here.

DasNeko

If you would look at it with a open mind and take a step back look at this…
The metro interface is just a GIANT improved version of the start button…it is
1. Easier to customize for the average person
2. You would actually be able to use it in a faster manner
3. You should be able to work with it a bit faster than with the actual start button
I was a person who HATED windows 8 in the beginning but Once I actually used it I found it to be WAY more efficient in moving around and opening applications

Joel Hruska

My only major complaint about the Start Screen / Apps Screen, which I’ve yet to hear anyone disagree with, is that it does not aggregate data very well. W8.1 fixes this by allowing you to create a customized view that suits your own particular needs. That’s ok — but now it’s the App View that fills up with crap and quickly becomes unmanageable.

Still, Start Screen is not a huge issue.

DasNeko

no…its still manageable
And its the same exact deal as the start button
Download everything on the internet and now you got a bunch of useless folders….same concept

Joel Hruska

No. Entirely different concept.

Downloads are where you go to run programs *once.* This is why browsers contain options like “Show in Folder” to help you find it. Start / Apps are where you go to run programs often.

It’s the difference between having a junk closet or attic that you fill with all the stuff you don’t want to deal with, and having your living room stacked floor-to-ceiling with boxes of stuff.

Techutante

Totally. We’ve always had the option to put every icon on the desktop, but the start menu is sorted like a proper filing system. (And you don’t use 80-90% of that stuff anyway on any normal day) Now they just want to force everything to the desktop in a jumbled pile of boxes that are constantly flashing and sucking internet.

DasNeko

actually windows 8 all apps does that….It has every application right there to be opened and you don’t need to click more than once like opening the folders
And they aren’t forcing everything onto the desktop…nor anything Everything works conveniently on the Metro interface

Techutante

Except when you mouse off the screen in any direction accidentally and a billion things pop up over what you were doing. How is the start bar less optimized than putting that stuff in 2 corners and a whole side of the screen? Centralized control is better.

Ray C

Most people are leaning more to the desktop and taskbar anyway. Honestly how often do most people you know really click on the start button? Also, there is the all apps screen plus the ability to move tiles and tile groups around. How many different applications do most people open in one day. You know you can turn off tile updating right?

f off

“Honestly how often do most people you know really click on the start button? Also, there is the all apps screen plus the ability to move tiles and tile groups around. How many different applications do most people open in one day.”

It varies from person to person. Thats why we would like some fucking CHOICE.

Techutante

I run somewhere in the range of 5-20 things at once usually. Yes, I turned off all the updating tiles, deleted all the stupid ones I don’t care about, and I’m left with a handful of apps that are incompatible with metro, and other icons that I would prefer were just icons instead of giant cardboard boxes. Metro is a dumbing down of UI to save system resources that don’t need saving on a Desktop.

Robin Persaud

Windows 8.1 offers the ability to boot right to desktop. Turn this on, then change all your defaults so that you use desktop applications, and not touch based ones. As you know, grab Classic Shell.

Modern UI ***is*** a dumbing down of the UI, and exists for tablet users, people with touch displays. BUT – you have to admit – you can pin many more apps on the Start Screen than you ever could on Start Menu (change till size to small).

Plus, you can still pin to taskbar on desktop.

DasNeko

Actually if you put it like that
It is both…you can have the junk in there (Just like the start button’s all programs) And have the Start apps (Applications you use daily/Folders you open daily(Like if you open the start button and have the mycomputer/recently used programs

They both have the same concepts its just that The start button Combines them (AKA combines just clicking the start button and the “junk” folders) Where you can customize which you want more…

Tig3RStyluS

Joel he means after download you install the applications and you have a huge load of new folders with useless links inside, sometimes folders within folders turning it into a mess. The only thing you need is the program exe shortcut so in that respect it is not superior to start screen. This is the main reason why legacy start menu was terrible (in my view). The other thing is that it was horrible to nav with anything except mouse or cursor keys, really bad with touchpads you get on laptops or bt kb’s (e.g. dinovo edge). I have a rig in my lounge as media center and since upgrading this to 8/8.1 even using the touchpad is easier from my sofa. I do however understand that the old way has become second nature to a lot of people so im not criticising them for liking the old menu.

komm

the main reason i dont like start scren is because it keeps popping up every time i close a metro app. Just adding extra click to get back to desktop

also it is redundant. Categorised menu was simple and efficient.

Robin Persaud

Agree on the annoyance factor. Just hit the Windows key on the keyboard and you will be in the desktop.

Also – my computer does NOT pop back to the start screen when I close a Modern UI app.

Superkev

I agree with DasNeko. To me the metro menu is a big start menu that is far better than the mess Windows 7 had. People forget just how bad the windows 7 start menu system really is they are simply used to the mess. Dead links, terrible organization, slow operation etc. The win 8 menu is a lot faster and easier to use. I really don’t use the native apps it’s just a nice launcher for me.

Tig3RStyluS

Agreed not to mention duplicate folders from the same publisher (e.g. EA Games, EA Sports, EA, Electronic Arts etc etc) who the hell wanted 4 folders from the same pub? Then they had program exe, uninstall.exe, help, readme, updates etc etc… uninstall was duplicate of function in control panel, the other stuff should arguably been built into the app itself but instead turned the legacy menu into a scrolling unwieldy mess after you install enough apps to exceed one screen height. I hated that mess, but i understand some people like it.

Robin Persaud

Yup, I remember cleaning that thing out regularly – from Win95-Win7.

CrankyMiddleAgedGuy2

The Start screen is fine if you use the computer is a limited number of ways. That’s probably why MS and all their usability labs think it’s an improvement. It’s the same type of thinking that led to ribbons in Office, which some people (e.g. my son) love – the stuff he usually uses is there in front of him with a pretty picture. If you need sometime a little “unusual”, then it’s tucked away God knows where. If you fall outside their standard usage pattern, Windows 8 is completely confusing and illogical.

The simple fact is that most people have voted with their feet. MS sucks and they are loosing sales because of it. They totally lack vision. The interface needs to properly support a good interface for casual users, and a logical one (almost certainly a start button).

Tiles Is brilliant on a phone (I have a Nokia). It sucks on a PC. It’s not too hard to think up a good compromise but again MS can’t seem to do it. Presumably too many management types in MS would loose face. I’d sell my shares if you still have any left.

Oh, and too many built-in apps have less functionality than before. What the thinking on that?

robthom

“Simple OS for simple brains.”

Robin Persaud

I agree with some of what you have said. The built-in apps do lack functionality, because they are being targeted to TABLET users. Compare them to their iOS equivalents, not their desktop ones.

I recommend to all my desktop-loving friends that they change their defaults to desktop apps only to avoid Modern UI, since it limits functionality on a normal, non-tablet computer.

Ribbon…I hate that.

robmoir

I really wish that people who like the new start screen would stop assuming that those of us who do not _must_ have a “closed mind” or something.

I’m glad its working for you. Why can you not accept that maybe other people have different requirements and its not working for us?

Tig3RStyluS

I understand that you like classic menu and dont think you or others are closed minded for it. i think some who like the new windows 8 approach are tired of reading the same complaint when theres always been a plethora of options available so you could preserve your way of working without changing now or changing yet.

robmoir

Fair enough and thanks for the thoughtful reply.

My problem with the options is that they’re third party. I don’t mind using them for myself but don’t want to have to buy and support them across thousands of machines.

I think that Microsoft could have solved this themselves if they’d left both types of interface in windows 8, enabled the appropriate default depending on whether or not touch-capable hardware was detected, but also let users manually pick their preferred interface.

I _do_ think that metro/modern is just fine on a tablet, just not for me on a desktop.

Tig3RStyluS

I agree with you rob, ms would have been better leaving it in, even if off by default so you had to choose to switch it on. I think the reason they didnt is because its probably never coming back and they need to accelerate adoption of new apps so that by time win9 drops, theres a big ecosystem and its not such a shock (like it has been for some). I dont make excuses for them, however i do think its a case of damned if they do, damned if they dont. Whatever they do attracts a certain amount of criticism, often justified.

My missus was a bit weary when i handed her her new installation and she was having to stop and pause occasionally when realising the menu wasnt there, but honestly picked it up quite quickly, maybe within a month despite not using the pc that much. She does have wp8 though and surface rt tab and i think these really made it go fast. I asked her about a month after if she wanted win7 as the default boot but she said no. I have since removed 7 and reinstalled clean so it boots faster. Same experience with my parents who are in their 60s, i get less support calls from them since the upgrade.

robmoir

That’s a fair point, MS (and Apple and…) are criticised for not innovating and criticised for innovations we don’t like straight away. I’m prepared to write off the current 8.x system as part of the growing pains as we head towards what is hopefully a better system in the long run, but I still don’t like experiencing the pains myself.

max999

Thank you Joel for a well written article. There is much more not to like in Windows 8/8.1 than the Metro Start Screen. I tell my friends and family to find a PC with W7 or have one built. I too can’t recommend using W8.

Ray C

Why not let them decide on their own? Are you giving them the pros and cons? Are you letting them playing around with Windows 8.x first to see if they would have a problem with it. I’ve advised many people of the complaints most people have. They made their own decision and most decided to go ahead and try it out. Most people I’ve come in contact with, especially college age or slightly over college age have no problem getting used to Windows 8. Most people I’ve dealt with who haven’t been using computers since 95 or 98, have been the same way. Many don’t like it. I didn’t like it at first, but like any other tech, I try to just give people the information and let at least try test things out first

Joel Hruska

“Why not let them decide on their own?”

Imagine this review: “Windows 8.1: Decide on your own!” Followed by a link.

That’s a crappy review, man.

There are two kinds of reviews. Performance reviews compare the benchmark data of two different products with a goal of answering which is faster. Windows 8, for example, has faster screen draw times than W7 in certain case, and you can feel the difference even if it’s very difficult to measure.

The other kind of review is a review of ease-of-use, look/feel, efficiency, and organization. I have laid out my thoughts and work on the matter in this review.

Anyone who disagrees or wants to experiment with the OS themselves is 100% capable of downloading and experimenting with the OS.

Guest

I do what Ray C does and give them the info, but then encourage them to visit their local big box store or friends place and play with it. Not everyone is capable of downloading and experimenting with the OS – they would need a computer other than their main one, and the time and inclination to do this.

Most non-techy people I know would rather play for 20 minutes after getting a quick demo, then make up their own minds.

Ease-of-use, look/feel type reviews are great, but I don’t know many people who base their OS decision solely on this. It is a factor, but people want to get hands on.

vlackrs

Finally a non-M$ personal opinion.

Ray C

So, you have to be a Microsoft person to feel like it works fine for what you need to do? You have to be a Microsoft person to not just outright dismiss it without giving the people you’re recommending to a chance to try it out for themselves?

Joel Hruska

Um.

I’m a *reviewer*, not the sole point of sale for Windows 8.1.

Anyone can download a copy of Windows 8.1 and try it out for themselves. The point of reading a review is to get an idea for whether or not it’s worth the time it takes to do that, not to get permission from the reviewer to test the product.

CrankyMiddleAgedGuy2

Not supposed to go back to Windows 8 though, only Windows 7 (assuming I read the T&C correctly). Strange limitation. Did MS think that W8 is soooo bad, no-one would choose it. Or perhaps, screw you – if you don’t like W8.1, then go back to W7.

Robin Persaud

Not sure what you mean – T&C on what – Windows 8?

Microsoft has included “downgrade rights” for many different versions of Windows – not just Windows 8.

This is useful if your hardware can’t run the new OS, you have a show stopping error because of hardware issues, etc. Or, if you just don’t like it.

PaperInTheWind

If you couldn’t recommend the original Windows 8, I doubt you can recommend 8.1 no matter how big an improvement it is. You seems to have a problem with the direction rather than the implementation.

Luckily, M$ probably doesn’t care about people who can work and watch TV at the same time.

Joel Detrow

Did you read the article? He says pretty much nothing about the direction and criticizes virtually nothing but implementation. And his criticisms stand – what’s baffling is that many of these cockamamie designs were actually done right in previous operating systems (for example, pressing the windows key and typing in Windows 7 would search everything, not just an arbitrary folder that can’t be changed)

Joel Hruska

This rigidity is what drives me nuts. “Everything” does not mean “Everything.” And there’s no way to *make* it mean “Everything.” So if I want to actually search my system, I have to use the Desktop.

One of the things people used to persistently criticize about Apple was that you couldn’t configure its products. If Apple decided you only got Option A, B, and C, those were your options, period. MS was always far more flexible on that front. But Metro is still trading away too much of this, IMO.

Luis E.

Hate to tell you this, but there IS a way to make it everything,, it’s called “indexation options” and it is in the desktop control panel, where you can CUSTOMIZE the search range of local files to your heart’s content.

For a self-professed desktop junkie your mojo is weak!!

Marrach

Hate to tell you this…but Basic Up Front User Functionality that is BURIED under non-intuitive sub-function panels that have to be hinted at by snarky on-line Uber-Users is BAD DESIGN and LAZY DESIGN STRATEGY.

That’s like a Thermostat with a really neat Auto-Temp function that will save the user Money– but the function is buried in a Sub-function that is only accessed by Pressing and Holding the DOWN Temp Button while pressing the Hold button for EXACTLY 3 seconds…and the only way to KNOW that is to find out that someone else found it out by mistake and Posted it on an Amazon Product review forum…(A true story BTW…the product is a Honeywell programmable thermostat)

Win 8, despite all the CPU/Memory tweaks, is a trainwreck of User Design. And No, I really don’t give a cr@p, that it boots a couple of nanoseconds faster.

Joel Hruska

That only impacts Desktop search, not Metro search. The two functions are still sandboxed.

Robin Persaud

Change your index options, then leave your PC on overnight. Remember that indexing does not run at full speed (sometimes even pauses) when you are using your computer.

Your second point – if “everything” included…”Everything” on my PC is 12+TB of stuff (yes…I have a lot of music, documents, etc on various drives). The index would be HUGE, and searching for anything would take forever. I indexed 48,000 items outside my C:usersusername folder – and it still takes 10-15 seconds for all results to appear (I have a Core i7, 24GB RAM, and 512GB SSD).

If I extended this to all my storage, I would be waiting much longer.

This is why server-based solutions like Sharepoint are prospering – there are massive server farms on the back end that dedicate tons of CPU and I/O to building and maintaining indexes of content.

PaperInTheWind

Have you tried to use Windows 7 on a touch screen? It sucks.

Windows 8 is a new direction to enter the touch based market. The whole point is that you don’t have to type. The desktop market is not where the growth is, so Microsoft does not care about all the whining from existing Windows 7 users. They can’t go anywhere anyway. Once every user moved to a new PC, they will forget about Windows 7 and use the new interface, no matter how stupid you think the new interface is for desktop. When it’s time to buy a new tablet, they would then choose the more familiar Windows 8 interface. That’s the game plan from the beginning.

Designing something that is closer to Windows 7 (aka sucky for touch) would not help Microsoft to make money in the touch market.

Registeredwithem

I’m inclined to chalk it up to moribund, labyrinthine development process from a bloated software company.

However, your point is well taken. If there is any method to MS madness this is it.

I would add to your point, that it is a huge gamble. This will play out over decades; but if MS’ Windows strategy doesn’t gain them significant mobile traction, they may end up losing desktop dominance in the process.

(For what it’s worth, I think it is foolish. MS have developed a great desktop OS ecosystem. Why they don’t just continue in that vein, developing behind-the-scenes integration with mobile, and accept the decreased presence in the everyday interface, is beyond me. Can only explain it by pride and greed.)

brekinapez

I guess a take on this is that it is a little early for MS to be taking a gamble that most people will quickly migrate to an all-touch interface world – too many people are still reliant on a traditional desktop model for MS to totally drop support of it. Windows 8 should have favored desktop over Metro and then maybe W9 could have supported Metro to a greater degree, gradually weaning those over who were willing to give it a shot. Seriously, I would use Metro on a tablet or touch laptop, but until touchscreen monitors become as cheap as their non-touch equivalents are now, I will not use Metro on my PC – right now the cheapest touch version of my monitor is about 2½ times what I paid for it (23″ Acer).

CrankyMiddleAgedGuy2

I think their belief that eventually phone will become full blown replacements for PC is correct. It not hard to imagine a phone with 10x more processing power remotely attaching to a screen and keyboard. (Instead of “a computer in every home”, it would be a computer in every pocket)

But the current implementation is just not the way to get there. They need to maintain their presence on the desktop and demonstrate design excellence (amongst many other things).

MS are very vulnerable. HTML5 means that many of the apps that really needed an OS can migrate to the browser. Presumably HTML6 when it comes will probably make the OS irrelevant for the most common applications. Then MS are vulnerable to Google. (Intel should worry, they need a chip that becomes the must-have for mobile phones, but they seem complacent too.)

Steve Ballmer had the opportunity over the last 10 years to have placed MS in a position where they could profit from that. I fear that it is now too late. The transition to mobile phone computer is not far off, and when it happens it will happen fast.

PaperInTheWind

Losing desktop dominance to whom?

Robin Persaud

Greed – they saw Apple selling millions of apps (billions?) and wanted some of that. Every touch based app that sells = profit for Microsoft.

Regarding desktop dominance – Microsoft knows that moving to Mac OSX or LInux is not an option for most people, since that would require re-learning more than simply adapting to the change in the Windows UI. This would also mean giving up applications, like Office, Photoshop and games. This is a deal killer for most people when considering jumping ship.

Joel Hruska

Windows 7 on Touch was an absolute, unmitigated disaster, no question. Couldn’t use it.

The problem is not W8.1 Touch, which is why this article is specifically focused on Metro-Desktop integration. But I own a Microsoft Surface. In touch-based contexts, W8 is fine.

Techutante

I hate the Surface RT that I own for various reasons, but I have to agree that the touch-based functionality works just peachy. Those giant ugly boxes are quite effectively used with your fingers.

I disagree with you there. The Surface RT was a good tablet when you compare what you can and cannot do with it – it was the lack of apps that hurt it.

With my Surface RT, I can connect to my Remote Desktop server at work and run all my hosted apps (Office, Tax preperation software, ERP software, etc), use USB devices (mouse and keyboard!), and even printers. Could not do that with iPad.

For people who are Microsoft-centric, the Surface RT made sense.

Also – expandable memory. I plugged in an external hard drive (2TB) and it worked great. Or, grab a 64GB MicroSD and slap it in – put some music on it, and you’re set.

PaperInTheWind

I am guessing that you would need a keyboard and a mouse/touchpad to run your hosted apps. That’s the problem. Whereas a mouse and keyboard is nice to have for an iPad, they are still required for Surface RT. Desktop is not designed for touch, yet it’s still necessary since Microsoft couldn’t finish the job in time. Third party touch optimized apps are not there either (although it’s getting better). That’s why I think Surface RT still have a long way to go to be a proper tablet. Unfortunately, iPad Air just made that road longer.

I have a lot of confidence in M$, but I think they are too late to the market and is not executing very well. There’s still a chance for them to establish themselves in the mobile market, but the window of opportunity is closing fast.

Robin Persaud

That’s why I said “for people who are Microsoft centric”. If you rely on Microsoft at work, it makes sense. You can get real work done on your hosted apps, just add the webfeed to the Remote Desktop app. No third party RDP apps required.

You can use the RT without a mouse and keyboard for the modern UI apps, it works fine since everything except Office apps use touch (finally, settings too). When do you need to use mouse and keyboard in Win 8.1, if all you care about are touch apps?

The tablet build quality is VERY solid. A bit heavy, but that is because…

The problem is that Microsoft has made a tablet that looks like a laptop, not a tablet. They need to make up their mind! Make a thinner model without ports and no Office apps, and go for the pure tablet play.

PaperInTheWind

Microsoft needed an advantage. They thought Office was it, but it didn’t work out. I have more hope in the Lumia offers with M$ concentrating on the more Microsoft centric crowd.

CrankyMiddleAgedGuy2

Did you get Gorilla Arm (from holding your arm out all the time)?

You are absolutely right – the goal was never to produce a better UI, rather make it look like one of their phones. So they succeeded brilliantly. The problem is that it badly damages their brand, their sales have collapsed and there is no certainty that the phones will compensate for the loss of PC sales to Android/Apple. That is bad management and one of the many bad decisions that have come out of Redmond, and why Steve Ballmer had to go.

PaperInTheWind

Do you honestly think people would choose PC over iPad if Microsoft kept the start menu? PC have been losing sales to Android/Apple long before Windows 8 came out. Those who needs desktop would still buy PC, those who don’t, wouldn’t buy Windows 7 anyway. Is that really that hard to understand? Do you know anybody, anybody at all, who said, damn, no start menu, let me buy an iPad to replace my PC?

Robin Persaud

Really good point. The trend seems to be getting cheaper tablets and big phones, so that you can ‘get to stuff’ faster than ever before.

I know, because my iPad and Blackberry told me so.

Robin Persaud

Sales will get better with time. That new Nokia Lumia with 40+MP camera looks cool.

I think the biggest problem is that people who have been watching mobile phones for a while know that Microsoft botched thier first couple attempts – Windows CE, Windows Phone 6 – were useable but were abandoned by Microsoft.

They took design cues from Apple and Android and released the Metro UI, which works very well on the phone. I think more people will use it, once they see it and experience it firsthand.

robmoir

“The whole point is that you don’t have to type.”

Then why does everyone who defends the start menu do so by saying that its ok that it’s disorganised because you can just search by typing in the name of the app?

If Windows 8 was designed as an interface that you can use without typing then given its reliance on search to find just about anything at all then it sucks even more than I first thought.

PaperInTheWind

You don’t have to, doesn’t mean you can’t.

robmoir

I don’t have to, doesn’t mean I can’t but it does mean that if I’m not typing then I’m having to sideways scroll (ugh) through a truly stupidly long list of icons.

If “I don’t have to” but the menu is virtually unusable otherwise, then either Microsoft have designed a touch OS you _need_ to type on, or they’ve designed an OS that’s _designed_ to be unusable for power users.

Which is it?

robmoir

I don’t have to, doesn’t mean I can’t but it does mean that if I’m not typing then I’m having to sideways scroll (ugh) through a truly stupidly long list of icons.

If “I don’t have to” but the menu is virtually unusable otherwise, then either Microsoft have designed a touch OS you _need_ to type on, or they’ve designed an OS that’s _designed_ to be unusable for power users.

Which is it?

PaperInTheWind

It means that you can type to access things quickly if you have a keyboard handy or you can use touch to access things without having to type. Is it really that hard to understand?

Scroll or not, it’s a lot easier than Windows 7 on a touch interface and that’s the point.

robmoir

And _my_ point is that having a proper dedicated tablet OS where you _really_ didn’t have to type to find things and a proper desktop OS where you didn’t have to carry out lots of sideways scrolling to find stuff would be even better still.

Windows 8 is not hard to understand, just hard to use.

Robin Persaud

Not really. Press the Windows button on the tablet, then swipe in from the right side. Tap Search. Tap search field – a software keyboard appears. Type WORDPAD. Long press on the result and “Pin to Start”.

Do this for your favorite apps, then everything you want is right there.

Or, hit Windows button and just swipe down to see ‘all apps’. Top left of that, hit the drop down to sort by: name, date installed, most used, or category.

And lots of sideways scrolling – with the Windows 7 Start Menu, didn’t you find yourself scrolling up and down to find things you wanted?

Remember – Win8 was designed for touch-FIRST users, no matter what MS says.

And I will admit that the Apple search implementation in iOS7 is pretty sweet. Microsoft – copy it quick!

PaperInTheWind

You still don’t get it.

Better for whom? Better for the users, maybe, but not better for M$. A proper desktop OS would not propel you to buy the dedicated tablet OS if they don’t share similar interfaces, yet Windows 7’s interface sucks for touch devices.

Windows 8 may be a little harder for desktop users to use (I disagree, but it’s subjective). However, it’s there to help M$’s entrance into the mobile market, not to please some desktop users who got nowhere else to go anyway. Even if desktop users were happy with W8, they would still consider it a desktop OS and buy iPads for tablet use. The whole point of Windows 8 is to blur that line and make people more likely to choose Windows for their tablet purchase as well.

It’s hard to say whether M$ would be successful. They may already be too late. However, Windows 7 had ZERO tablet market share before, Windows 8 has 4.5% (or 7.5% depending who you believe) now despite dismay sales.

I still don’t understand why it’s so hard for people to understand. Somehow people keep on thinking a company’s job is to do what’s best for the users, rather than maximize returns for the shareholders.

PaperInTheWind

It means that you can type to access things quickly if you have a keyboard handy or you can use touch to access things without having to type. Is it really that hard to understand?

Scroll or not, it’s a lot easier than Windows 7 on a touch interface and that’s the point.

PaperInTheWind

Have you tried to use Windows 7 on a touch screen? It sucks.

Windows 8 is a new direction to enter the touch based market. The whole point is that you don’t have to type. The desktop market is not where the growth is, so Microsoft does not care about all the whining from existing Windows 7 users. They can’t go anywhere anyway. Once every user moved to a new PC, they will forget about Windows 7 and use the new interface, no matter how stupid you think the new interface is for desktop. When it’s time to buy a new tablet, they would then choose the more familiar Windows 8 interface. That’s the game plan from the beginning.

Designing something that is closer to Windows 7 (aka sucky for touch) would not help Microsoft to make money in the touch market.

TheDerpPolice

Moron alert

Liz Young

This is what the title of the story should read,
“If it’s not Apple then we still can’t recommend it.”

TheDerpPolice

Moron alert.

Fact of the matter is Metro blows herds on the desktop and belongs on mobile devices only.

Mikey

Why oh why is it so hard to simply add a “Windows Mode” and “Tablet Mode” switch? That would solve so many problems with this OS.

vlackrs

Cuz they know took your idea. Maybe for win9

Robin Persaud

Because Microsoft wants you to use touch based applications. You don’t have any now…when you buy them, guess who gets a cut?

Windows and Office just don’t make as much money for Microsoft as it used to.

Bill Hamilton

As a tech Professional you should be able to sit down with a new OS and learn how to use it in a few days…..if not then maybe you need to find a new line of work cause technology moves fast and you can ride the wave and change or be a dinosaur and demand things go back to the way XP did it and go extinct.

Joel Hruska

Bill,

Quite. And having learned to use OS X and even a bit of Ubuntu in precisely this fashion, I can absolutely sit down and use Windows 8. If I had to stop using Windows 7 today, I could run my life in W8.1.

I just don’t *want* to, because many of the improvements, while genuine, don’t go far enough towards creating a product more useful than its predecessor.

Bill Hamilton

when i first installed win 8 i was not satisfied with having to go to the charms bar to restart and shutdown so to fix this i did a quick reg edit and boom now shutdown and restart are in the desktop context menu. Sometimes you have to make the OS suit your needs

TheDerpPolice

Most users aren’t savvy enough to dig into the registry to fix what should just be an easy Metro-off switch easily accessible.

Windows 8.x is fundamentally flawed and broken out of the box in so many ways and that’s what’s on trial here.

Tank Rothchild

Their first step should have been to kill metro. Second, reinstate start button.

rogerdanielpaul

On a Tablet, the multi-window management in Win8 is awesome. Being able to have 2 windows open is a big productivity boost. I hate going back to my iPad after using my Yoga in tablet mode. You just realize how crippled and inefficient the iPad is for getting anything done.

You are being dramatic about adding a third window. It is incredibly simple although unpractical on anything less than 24+ inches big. But id rather have it then not.

For search, I have just adjusted to specifying what I am looking for with the windows hot keys. I think Win+F for files, just Win for apps, and Win+W for settings (I think? I am on a Win7 PC now). I do miss Win7s all in one, but I have adjusted.

In the end, Windows 8 is getting better. Its an OS I can easily use on a laptop/desktop and on a Tablet by allowing the user to switch how they use the OS based on their current circumstance.

Joel Hruska

The third window, IMO, is a bit tricky to position. What I dislike most is having to constantly re-drag out the two other apps if I happen to alt-tab. I certainly agree with you that W8.1 is a marked improvement over W8.

Robin Persaud

I agree, purchased ModernMix which allows me to run all Metro / Modern UI apps in “Windowed” mode / state, rather than full screen. It actually makes Modern UI apps much more useful on desktop.

I don’t know what use case there would be for someone wanting three Modern UI apps side by side (IE, Facebook, Twitter?). But, I guess it is there for those that want it.

brekinapez

“Win+F for files, just Win for apps, and Win+W for settings”

Correct. Just verified it, although I’ve never actually used them yet.

robmoir

“On a Tablet, the multi-window management in Win8 is awesome”
— and on a desktop, it’s awful.

This is the problem. Microsoft’s idea of creating one OS for both types of device is fatally flawed. On a tablet your touch experience is ruined every time you get dumped to the desktop, and the start screen is never going to be a good use of screen real estate on a 21″ high-resolution desktop monitor.

Tig3RStyluS

I havent been dumped to the desktop yet, not in 8.1 and the window management for eyefinity setup is awesome in 8.1. i do confess to having modernmix from stardock installed so i can run metro apps windowed on desktop. Works a treat.

robmoir

It really beats me why Microsoft didn’t do the same thing that Stardock did with modern mix. It’s what Windows 8 modern apps *should* be on a ‘conventional’ PC.

As for being dumped to the desktop, I’m thinking of the Windows RT tablets we support at the college I work for, which all come with Office, which is a desktop app. In a lot of ways, being dumped out to the desktop to run office on a Windows RT tablet is much more jarring than the start screen appearing on a desktop.

Guest

Agree. Those who are advanced / power users know how to change defaults so that everything runs in desktop apps. Everyone else is left with a disjointed experience.

Robin Persaud

Damn, learn something new every day. THANK YOU for telling us about the Win+F and Win+W shortcut keys! :)

Been There Done That

I’ve built websites for people that remind me a lot of how developers must have felt building windows 8. They had a great plan going in, but the client or the top person in charge kept flip flopping on what they wanted. one side didn’t communicate with the other changes in directions or goals, and the end result being the developers got fed up, quit, confused, and ended up saying basically, “screw it…that’s what you want here, fine. it won’t work, there’s ramifications making that change, people won’t get it… but if that I’d what YOU, my boss or client want… here. I’m going home.”

so I’m convinced windows 8 started with core goals and a plan but somewhere halfway in, some fool changed their mind.. many times.

the result is this mess.

TheDerpPolice

Wars were fought internally at Microsoft throughout “Metro’s” development between engineering and marketing, and apparently they are continuing. Ballmer certainly had no clue how to fix it and he decided he’s outta there because the only way he could see things heading was down.

The1nChicago

I do not care what anyone says. For a site that has a parent company such as ZD, I find these Bloggers to lack the true intellect to judge any product due to bias. That said, does anyone take these guys opinions seriously? The majority of the content is after the fact. Where are your original articles that can go toe to toe with the likes of sites such as Anand? The site is called EXTREMTECH, correct? What a misnomer.
How can you not recommend WIn8.1 when it still runs 99 percent of the legacy applications for Windows? Can you say that for any other OS to date? Also, where is your article criticizing iOS 7 that has been lambasted by the press.
Funny, I was waiting for Sebastian to post his negative article about Microsoft; I guess Joel decided it was his turn.
Now ban me for going ExtremeTech.

m0r1arty

To be fair, and in all seriousness, ET broke the tape on the porn industry and how much of the Internet it makes up.

There’s a few others too but they’re usually always the side of the tracks nobody else wants to cover.

That and Dell adverts :)

Joel Hruska

“How can you not recommend WIn8.1 when it still runs 99 percent of the legacy applications for Windows? Can you say that for any other OS to date? ”

I can. It’s called Windows 7 64-bit.

That’s not meant as a snide answer, either. With Windows 8.0, Microsoft offered some notable (and genuinely nice) improvements to Desktop, balanced an awful Metro experience. I don’t believe in paying for a half-baked product, and the combination of Metro+Desktop was so terrible, I told people my own honest opinion — I would not use it.

Fast forward to today. Now, Windows 8.1 has the same notable and genuinely nice improvements to Desktop, balanced against a better but ultimately still sub-standard Metro experience — in my opinion.

You are free to have a different opinion, and I do not take it as a blow against your intelligence that you disagree with me. Kindly do the same.

Robin Persaud

Well said Joel. I enjoyed this article and appreciate your opinion, even if I disagree with some of it – keep it up and looking forward to more like this in the future.

http://www.cardinalphoto.com David Cardinal

FWIW, if you actually read Extremetech, you’d see we have published several articles critical of issues with iOS 7. We have also published many articles praising features of Win 8 and Win 8.1, including their backwards compatibility, reduced memory footprint, and improved startup time. We call them as we see them, and we’ve been as a group seeing them for decades, so that typically gives us a pretty good perspective. Disagreeing with whatever you happen to think isn’t either evidence of bias or (a good) reason for slurs, although of course you’re entitled to your own opinion.

The1nChicago

I do not care what anyone says. For a site that has a parent company such as ZD, I find these Bloggers to lack the true intellect to judge any product due to bias. That said, does anyone take these guys opinions seriously? The majority of the content is after the fact. Where are your original articles that can go toe to toe with the likes of sites such as Anand? The site is called EXTREMTECH, correct? What a misnomer.
How can you not recommend WIn8.1 when it still runs 99 percent of the legacy applications for Windows? Can you say that for any other OS to date? Also, where is your article criticizing iOS 7 that has been lambasted by the press.
Funny, I was waiting for Sebastian to post his negative article about Microsoft; I guess Joel decided it was his turn.
Now ban me for going ExtremeTech.

http://www.tech-hedz.com TechHedz

They should remove all the fullscreen apps from Windows 8 Metro and leave that for Windows RT. I don’t mind the Metro interface with news and live tile updates but it should just function as a menu and application launcher with live tiles as well. Not some separate experience from the regular desktop apps. I delete all the Metro apps each time I do an install on my machines with windows 8. They are pretty useless and a pain to navigate.

m0r1arty

Pretty sure Seb was pimping Windows 8 like it was Jodie Foster in ‘Taxi Driver’ last year.

Wrong but entertaining.

poken1151

A detailed user oriented analysis I feel. I’ve not had any major impediments using 8 or 8.1, though what changes have come with 8.1 I’ve greatly welcomed.

I’d still call for something like the features of ModernMix to be backed in when I install to a desktop, it just makes sense to me. Additionally as you pointed out about storage ciew from Metro apps. That’s something I’ve disliked from day-one. Metro apps have limited scope out of the box unless explicitly designed a certain way.

That being said, I use Windows. And so aside from a few metro apps that I run in ModernMix anyway (like some games), I only see the start menu when I am starting an app.

Not everyone uses the OS in the same way, so I can’t say one should simply use Windows as Windows (I mean, when is there ever a need to really use the start screen on the desktop aside from launching desktop apps, and the most used are start-bar-pinned, start-screen-pinned, searchable anyway). So that’s an aside and a personal view.

Additional, it’d be a horrible testament to their implementation, as the easy response is if they’re gonna include it, include it at maximum functionality and not this perceived still limited thing.

I can agree on all fronts, but… again, the way I’ve use windows has not been impeded greatly, so I’ve just not seen this start menu thing as such a hindrance.

Registeredwithem

Think I am kinda in your boat. I am an above-average user, but not a power user. If I was a little more of a computer nerd, I have no doubt I would hate what MS is doing.

As it is, I can switch between 7 and 8 machines with little trouble now (using exactly 0 Metro apps); but I certainly see critiques like Mr. Hruska’s as spot on.

What it comes down to for me is a clear lapse in judgement and lack of competence from a software company that I depend on way too much. Windows 7 is looking more and more like the pinnacle. While I know there are other options now and on the rise, I don’t really want to transition to another platform. So, I just wish Redmond would get it’s act together.

WebUser

Just another anti-Microsoft asshole. do I need your commendation?

chojin999

If you really need to use the Windows8.x or WindowsServer2012 crap then just disable Metro, fully disable UAC, install Classic Shell and then the system might start getting usable.
However the best thing to do still is installing Windows7 SP1 or WindowsServer2008R2 SP1.

David Trimble

I got Windows 8.1 yesterday. I upgraded to 8 because of Direct X 11.1 and 11.2. Not to mention I will be playing Battlefield 4. I saw a major difference in performance in BF4 while on 8. Personally I think 8.1 makes a big difference.

While not perfect it is an improvement in my opinion. I wouldn’t call my self a fan boy at all. I work in the IT field my self and at first hated Windows 8 with a passion. But like most, people I didn’t like change. But once I become experienced with Windows 8 you start to see improvements.

Reasons I like Windows 8 and 8.1:
* File History: Much like Mac Time Machine, makes backing up much much easier and only writes changes to backup.

*Enhanced security: Self explanatory

* Direct X 11.1 and 11.2 support: While some might say you won’t see a difference this will show over time, especially with new console game ports.

* Easier navigation (Windows 8.1 mainly): This one is mainly an opinion but with both my tablet and my desktop I find navigation much easier.

* Boot time and shut down: With my SSD, boot literally went from 5 seconds to 1 second, I’m not joking. Shut down in 2 seconds. Almost instant on and instant off. Awesome.

Things I don’t like:

More difficult to repair: You have to use a Windows 8 disk to repair the operating system. If you bought a laptop or a pre built OEM desktop with Windows 8 or 8.1 it makes booting into safe mode or other repair options impossible unless you have an operating system disk. Stupid!

No Explanation on New Interface: Finally with 8.1 this changed but I found my self spending 5 minutes trying to figure out how to get to the start screen in desktop mode when Windows 8 beta was released. WTF?

Joel Hruska

If you’re booting in one second or Windows 7 in 5, you’re timing it differently than most or you’ve built yourself one hell of a storage array. Boot times are typically measured from POST beep / motherboard logo / product logo, and include the hardware initialization time.

No PC I’m aware of can boot within even five seconds under this metric. The fastest boot time I’ve personally seen using Windows 8, high-end SSDs, and a BIOS that was specifically configured for fast boot was 8 seconds for cold boot.

Guest

Maybe he means boot from sleep mode??

Tig3RStyluS

I agree with your perspective but your boot time needs re-measurement. its very fast, but 1 sec must be resume from sleep. Thats approx what i get on Rampage IV extreme mobo, i7-3970X, 64gig Ram, 2xSSD Raid0 and a boot from post of about 3-4 secs. I find my haswell based rig has a slightly faster resume than sandyE but thats more to do with the intel chipset on haswell.

Natashia

Is anyone still having issues with the charms bar? I upgraded to 8.1 and opted to have the hot corners disabled. However it is still interrupting me constantly. I don’t mind learning the new interface, but this disruption is probably the most annoying thing I have ever experienced technically speaking.

Tig3RStyluS

Hi Natashia, not sure i understand the problem. Is it just interrupting you on certain tasks or apps?

David Trimble

I think many Windows 7 users will be the same type of people who held on to XP for long. In fact I still have customers who insist Windows XP is the best version of Windows ever. Many still use AOL and at times (lol) use dial up. I explain to them for a few dollars more they can get basic DSL. People are stubborn. I especially see this with older customers who are set in their ways.

On rare occasion I have a customer with connectivity issues that I can’t troubleshoot in the shop because we do not have a analog line. I tell them I could make a house call but our hourly is too expensive for them. Basically I tell them to call their ISP. They then tell me they have but they can’t understand the guy from India. LOL. Hopeless.

Stubbornness….set in your ways.

Fact of the matter is, you have to move on in some way. Be it a later version of Windows or on another platform such as Mac or a cheaper alternative, Linux.

But no one is putting a gun to your head but you will experience many problems by not doing so. Viruses, lack of support, lack of drivers, etc.

Joel Hruska

The flaw in your argument, David, is that I can precisely articulate where I believe Windows 8 failed, what W8.1 fixes, and what W8.1 needs to improve upon in order for me to see it as a full-fledged product that articulates a different, equally-good vision for the future of computing across desktops *and* tablets.

Ask the people using Windows XP why they don’t want to upgrade to Windows 7, and people either complain about the UI or don’t want to learn something new.

In contrast, I want Windows 8.2 to incorporate a full suite of keyboard commands that don’t leave me hunting for small arrows across a 1920×1080 display. I would like to see some additional UI fusion that allows the mouse to emulate a finger, (perhaps via click-and-swipe).

I want Photo apps that can create a new file from within a Metro field or scan the hard drive and build a comprehensive database of all photos on a system. I want the ability to sort Metro Videos by more than just name or date. I want to be able to tell the OS to put file names under each icon from within the video player.

I want a window management system that remembers my window configurations and allows me to save “sets” of windows. If the Desktop is just another app, let’s treat its positioning the same way.

Let me configure Metro app windows with the same flexibility I can use when configuring desktop applications.

The Start Screen improvements are a good beginning. Don’t quit. Give me the ability to set font colors and headers so that my “App Screen” is more meaningfully differentiated. Let me set my section heads apart.

If, next year, Windows 8.2 does all these things and throws in a bunch of additional improvements I haven’t mentioned (truly unified search, for example), then I’ll be the first one jumping up and down to cheer it on.

Guest

..

Ray C

You wouldn’t recommend a Microsoft product? Wow! What a total shock

Joel Hruska

I would be happy to recommend a Microsoft product. I recommend Microsoft Office 2010, Microsoft Office 2013 if you buy it instead of subscribing, Windows 7 64-bit, and Virtual Studio. Even within Windows 8, I’m quite fond of the News app.

IE10 is a much better browser than MS’s previous products, so even if it’s not my personal favorite, I can certainly recommend it far more than in the past. Skype is extremely popular for VoIP. I use Microsoft Security Essentials on my home system.

There are *many* Microsoft products I would recommend, and multiple areas where MS offers a serviceable product, if not my personal favorite.

I just don’t think all that much of this one.

Vighnesh Misal

I would just like to know if they have addressed the issues faced by gamers. Like texture problems in Sleeping Dogs, HUD problems in BF3 etc??

Joel Hruska

Those are not OS problems,. Those are game problems when running under a particular OS>

Vighnesh Misal

They run fine in Win7. I don’t think the developers can be held accountable since they made them with Win7 in mind. Shouldn’t Microsoft solve them??

Joel Hruska

Microsoft doesn’t own the source code or IP that would be required to do so. You write code to the OS target.

Guest

Vighnesh, I think your beef is with the video card manufacturer, not Microsoft. They can’t police and fix stuff made by others.

I had the same issue with different games on my AMD Radeon 4970 card. Moved it to my other computer and got a 7970 with latest drivers. Problem solved!

Tig3RStyluS

Not noticed prob with either of those titles…. amd or nvidia?

Vighnesh Misal

AMD. HD 8730M 1 GB

Vighnesh Misal

AMD. HD 8730M 1 GB

Tig3RStyluS

Have you checked new amd driver? Ive got 7970’s and running latest beta (think 13.11 not sure cos im at gitex in dubai). AMD have great gpu’s but sometimes a bit slow with their driver support, beta’s released more frequently and fix most issues pretty quick. Sorry have no idea about mgpu’s, my win7 lap is intel only.

Vighnesh Misal

The official HD8000 series drivers aren’t out from AMD. I have been using Dell drivers.

Robin Persaud

That is probably your issue. Are these the drivers you are looking for?

I really see no reason to not recommend Windows 8.1. The only one that makes sense to me is “If you have Windows 7, this is not a must-have upgrade.” Heck I considered Windows 7 an must-have over XP, but I’m sure most didn’t. But if you don’t have a computer or you’re running XP I really see no reason to not to recommend. If you haven’t been using computers a while, and aren’t used to the Win9X model, it’s all going to be new to you anyway. And if you’re on XP, the desktop mode on Windows 8 is basically the same. Most people who move from XP to 7 see a significant drop in their usage of the classic start menu anyway. More and more average 7 users are using the desktop and taskbar anyway. I’m sure I’ve seen some data detailing that somewhere. I have never advised someone not to get any tech unless it’s accepted to be a completely bad or dangerous product. I just give them the good and bad and what other people have said, and I advised them to find a way to play around with the product first then decide, or I ask them if they think certain issues others have complained about would be an issue for them

Watiu

Unless you are using a tablet (or other touchscreen device) Windows 8.1 isn’t worthwhile. I’ve had Windows 8 for a while and recently updated to 8.1 and cannot say I’m pleased with any of the “changes”. The “start button” is just a button that takes you to the metro menu – which, with a mouse, is clumsy and dull to use. I honestly don’t see why MS -requires- the use of the metro interface on a desktop or laptop with no touchscreen capability. Windows 8 is not a bad OS by any means but the lack of the ability to simply turn off the metro interface or a real usable start menu is a huge drawback.

AlCarn

The Windows 8 disaster continues and Microsoft is too stubborn and proud to back off.

While OK for a tablet, Metro is a disaster for the desktop. Why would any one ever consider migrating to 8.X I will never understand. With Aero you have full control over your programs and can display as many of them as you want, where you want. Metro limits you to two programs at a time and they have to be positioned on either side of the screen. How is this an improvement?

I keep seeing posting from people who say that those of us that don’t like Windows 8.X are just afraid of change. I have no problems with change, but I want the change to be a positive one not a negative one and wont buy into change just because some marketing department tells me that this is the latest and greatest thing.

There are some features of Windows 8.X I would like to have, but I’m not willing to put up with Metro to get them. Do the right thing Microsoft; restore Aero for the desktop and keep Metro for the tablets.

MS has been afraid of losing market share because of the competition, but with WIndows 8.X they have probably done more damage to themselves that any competing companies have. It’s sad seeing a once great company destroying itself.

Joel Hruska

Windows 8.1 is much better than Windows 8.0. It’s still not good enough for me to recommend it as a W7 replacement, but I should note that this is not unprecedented. Apple began with OS X 10.0, which was painfully unfinished and released as a beta. 10.1 was the first real release, but you could run OS9 applications in OS X all the way through 10.4.

Metro has potential. I’ve always thought so. It just needs a significant amount of continued work to bring the UI paradigm up to full capability. I’m not willing to pay for it yet, personally, because I’m not willing to give cash to a company for a product that annoys me more than its predecessor.

http://pharaohtechblog.blogspot.com/ Conan Kudo (ニール・ゴンパ)

Well, it seems that Microsoft’s push toward iterative development means that we may see gradual improvements yearly.

Tig3RStyluS

I like it and i like that on the hardware side its a bit faster so far. Had some time on the surface 2 and surface 2 pro on MS stand @ gitex on sunday and both tablets extremely impressive.

gremlin22

Installed Linux Mint for the first time today. Currently only on a virtual machine to try it out but hopefully I could manage it as my next OS. It is far from perfect and I am not too optimistic about the headless crowd that push the gazilion Linux distros forward, sideways or backward but at least you can choose the least worse of them.
I really liked Microsoft for the last 20 years but the last few years of ribbonizing office and metroing Windows made me lose any hope for my future with this company.

Robin Persaud

I hear you. The last version of Linux Mint that truly could be my ‘day to day’ was version 9. The current release has too many issues (not the Mint team’s fault…underlying issues with my computers hardware and Linux kernel / driver support) for me to use. Your mileage may vary.

If you want something Windows like, how about ZorinOS? If you want a somewhat commercial but well supported Linux OS, how about Ubuntu? Both are free.

If the default look and feel does not suit you, you can install GNOME3, KDE4, E17 (Enlightenment), XFCE, LXDE, or some other window manager.

Not going to be easy to switch, but have fun!

Jr E Chamber

So when are they going to fix the rendering problems that there windows 8.1 has with there own games whats up with that i mean even red hat linux made shore there game’s keep working with every upgrade

Think about it.

Joel Hruska

What rendering issues are you referring to? I’ve encountered none.

Tig3RStyluS

I havent seen any issue like that (yet)

Draconian9053

From a gaming standpoint, is there any reason why Windows 8 is better than 7?

Joel Hruska

There have been a few cases where early drivers in games like BF4 performed better in W8 than W7. W8.1 has DirectX 11.2, whereas W7 is limited to DX11.1. Currently, this is meaningless. It will likely never mean much.

At one point, AMD drivers for Radeon cards were running very slightly better under W8 than under W7.

If there is a benefit to using W8 over W7, at this point, it is extremely particular and apparently sits on the 1-3% range.

http://pharaohtechblog.blogspot.com/ Conan Kudo (ニール・ゴンパ)

From my personal experience, I’ve found that disk I/O has improved considerably with Windows 8.x. Memory management and process scheduling is better, though it still isn’t as good as the schemes used in Linux.

Windows 8.x also won’t chew up SSDs for breakfast with serial writes. It has a batch mode to bundle up reads and writes as needed.

Also, native USB 3.0 support means that you won’t have unintentional conflicts with driver namespaces if the USB 2.0 and USB 3.0 controllers are plugged into the same bus.

If you must use Windows and you have a computer that has an SSD and/or USB 3.0, those things might be worth considering.

Joel Hruska

I used to have USB 2.0 / 3.0 issues on my own system, but this cleared up eventually after driver updates. But interesting what you’ve said about the namespace, I didn’t know that.

http://pharaohtechblog.blogspot.com/ Conan Kudo (ニール・ゴンパ)

I’ve caused my computer to crash by switching devices around on my USB ports because of the mix of USB 2.0 and 3.0 ports connected to controllers that went into the same bus. Windows doesn’t do fixed allocations where a device name is uniquely allocated to a device. Instead, allocations are reused, with the intent that drivers don’t need reconfiguring. In Windows 7, USB 3.0 doesn’t fully work like it is supposed to, since the USB subsystem in Windows 7 only works with USB 2.0. Strange things can happen because of that.

Tig3RStyluS

Bit of an old topic, but cant say that i ever had that problem with USB3 on Windows 7. I think i had drivers installed for USB3. All rigs are on ASUS Rampage & Maximus motherboards.

f off

No thanks. I have Windows 7, and have no interest in downgrading to Win 8.

penguin

Linux user here!
This holy war looks so funny for me. =P

Joel Hruska

I assume you’ve been off marching against the GNOMEs? ;) Or perhaps the Mintish are battling again? In a fara Wayland? ;)

penguin

Well, when I think about it Ubuntu has start menu like in Windows 8 (you must type first few letters of application name). Definitely I hate this system. Linux Mint with classic taskbar and desktop with icons interface is just for me. Nothing can be better.

Joel Hruska

My point was that a lot of Ubuntu’s changes have been controversial as well. They ticked a huge chunk of the user-base off with Wayland and the entire Unity push. Granted, if you’ve been using Debian, Mint, or another distro, you haven’t been directly impacted by all that, but it’s still been going on. ;)

penguin

I moved from Ubuntu to Mint after very first release of Unity destop. =)

Robin Persaud

Cinnamon or MATE?

Robin Persaud

Very nice!

jburt56

Alas, the desktop is relegated to a vestigial software component in the new tablet software. The children will accidently invoke it while paging through Netflix videos and ask what it was for. We’ll have to explain that there was a time when people did office work with PCs before the rise of the bots. . .

Tig3RStyluS

Best comment of them all! Lol

Guest

Mark my words – Skynet will run Windows 8.

jburt56

Alas, the desktop is relegated to a vestigial software component in the new tablet software. The children will accidently invoke it while paging through Netflix videos and ask what it was for. We’ll have to explain that there was a time when people did office work with PCs before the rise of the bots. . .

Rudolph Cain

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RS

On a Desktop pc you should use the metro interface like a Desktop, no like a start menu.. put your “gadgets” (live tiles) and your icons there, make a hotkey or icon, to open the metro interface (control + windows key) and install Start8 for classic start menu, and just learn the gesture with the mouse.. there only 3 gesture.. come on.. is so easy.. Once you learn it, you will be so productive using your pc. Even my little 8 years old brother use windows 8.1 like a f-cking pro. and yes.. you have to download a 3rd party software for a basic function, but so what? I do that since win 95. Big deal.

Nancy Weaver

Thank you for this very honest review. I hope that there will be an update that will fix those problems mentioned above. We actually have two computer units, a MAC and a Windows PC in our house. We enjoyed the features of both but, it would be better if there will be a new update for Windows. -http://www.used-pcs.com/

whatsa2

Now for me I’m easy going and dont stress over the little things. some verge to neurotic obessive issues.

I still have my desktop and alls the same? if I feel like playing around with metro I can…

I have a choice so I am fine with that.

If its(metro) proximity is causing you distress I would say you suffer from a obsessive compulsive disorder and that has nothing to do with Windows8.

I would suggest therapy

les

If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it! Are you listening Microsoft? I could size as many windows as i wanted, and drag and drop data between them……in Windows 3.1! What the hell happened MS???

jim moore

Go back to 3.1. by the way how many windows do you really need up? By the way all your windows are on your left side bar.

YAUNa

Boring. Having overcome the slight learning curve, I wouldn’t trade my DESKTOP Windows 8 for anything. I love being able to take advantage of either “Metro” interface and its goodies or INSTANTLY switching to the desktop for “traditional” computing. The tiles have forced me to organize; I have what I need and use most of the time instantly available in a nicely planned arrangement; the search function serves very well for the more obscure or little used needs. The nice touches such as being allowed to open an open app in another window are useful productivity increases. There’s no doubt that many little things-habits-we’re used to are either gone or have changed but what’s new? Betcha every time you buy a car you mutter a list of little things you miss. And I never cease to glaze over every time some complaint starts with the phrase “Start menu”. The really nice thing about this article’s comments is the fact that as more and more adopters come on board and get used to the nifty DUAL functionality, the more and more it’s obvious that the naysayers are heading toward a minority.

Brian Titus

I could not agree more re: the dual functionaity. Of course, having a touch screen device that is “convertible” makes a huge difference. I have the Yoga 11s, which I think is ideal for Win8/8.1. Non-touch-screen? Yeah, I can see how that could be annoying.

Ralph Schoch

Wow. I thought only government could launch such an unusable product (eg. Obamacare web signup). I know MS (and Google and Apple for that matter) want to own the world and somewhat coerce you into creating accounts with them. Certainly privacy is already lost. but this Metro stuff does not even leave you with functionality following the rape.

jim moore

Extreme Tech just hates Windows 8 and Microsoft. That all I can says. If you don’t like Windows 8 go back to Windows 7.

jim moore

Extreme Tech just hates Windows 8 and Microsoft. That all I can says. If you don’t like Windows 8 go back to Windows 7.

GamerFromJump

I’d just like to know why Mail takes so damn long to load. It’s ridiculous.

jim moore

Slow internet connection?

jim moore

Slow internet connection?

Robin Persaud

I had the same issue on my desktop. For me – the video card drivers were bugging out – seriously. The driver would sometimes lock up and cause Windows to hang, but only when starting Modern UI apps. Desktop applications ran fine.

Got an AMD Radeon 7970 and that issue never happened again.

johnsmith9875

I’ve been in computers since 1978, and Windows 8.0/8.1 has to be the worst operating system I’ve ever seen. While technically there’s nothing wrong with it, usability is horrendous, inconsistent and just plain weird. I think the Microsoft UI designers were mentally ill. I just can’t believe that Microsoft thinks people use tablets in landscape mode all the time. Windows 8.0 is unusable in portrait mode. While things have improved slightly in 8.1 in that regards, it still is a glaring problem. Horizontally sliding tiles and windows make sense if you’re Chinese, but western languages we read left to right and top to bottom. Horizontally sliding windows go against the grain and is just plain infuriating.

Robin Persaud

Great article. I agree with all of this, but still use Windows 8.1 as my primary PC. Here’s how I live with it: (1) Changed all defaults to use desktop (not Modern UI) apps, (2) Downloaded & installed Start8 and ModernMix (less than $10 for both), (3) Installed Windows Live Mail 2012 for mail [you can also opt for Thunderbird or web-only, (4) Installed Firefox and made it my default browser, (5) Installed Skype for desktop to get IM and video chat outside of Modern UI.

With this configuration, I get a computer that runs the most current software, supports the best work technologies (DirectAccess, SMB 3.0, etc) and looks/acts like Windows 7 while still giving me the option to use and explore Modern UI apps.

TIP: Many of you already know this, but for those that do not:
– Right-click on Windows Taskbar (in desktop mode) and select Toolbar > New Toolbar.
– In the folder field at the bottom, type “C:ProgramDataMicrosoftWindowsStart Menu” and press enter.

You now have a “Start Menu” toolbar on your taskbar…that emulates the Windows 7 Start Menu (minus settings – just the programs). Don’t forget to periodically move the contents of “%username%AppDataRoamingMicrosoftWindowsStart MenuPrograms” –> “C:ProgramDataMicrosoftWindowsStart Menu” periodically so that your Start toolbar kludge has all the programs. This method is free and relies on no 3rd party software.

Or make life easy, and grab Classic Shell, which is free.

I am also the first to admit that Windows 8.1 on a tablet computer kicks all kinds of butt. Much more functional than iOS (…core apps only guys…I am aware iOS has KILLER apps that the Microsoft Store is only now getting…).

Mr. Windows

Once upon a time, there were two distinct camps, Windows, and Macintosh. Now, thanks to an ill-conceived notion of bringing everything Microsoft into one operating system, we have four. A Windows desktop, a Windows Metro, an Apple, and a growing Linux camp. Well done Mr. Ballmer, you have taken perfectly sound operating system that users liked, and hacked it into a Franken system, that users can only argue about.

My advice, if you don’t have Windows 8, stay with, or upgrade to Windows 7 (yes you can still do that), and if you do have Windows 8.1, just hold your nose, and keep using it as best you can. We’ll see what happens when the new guy takes over big chair at Microsoft. There is a light at the end of the tunnel. Whether it’s the light of an oncoming train or not, is yet to be seen.

Regards,
Mr. Windows

Guest

Linux and Mac OS for me from here on in. Bye bye Windows.

jugheadobama

Neither one is an alternative. You obviously haven’t dealt with the Charlie Foxtrot known as linux. 18 month learning curve just to make it work like windows for the average user, THEN, you make the mistake of a minor upgrade, and nothing works.

MnemonicCarrier

I recently had the displeasure of setting up a Windows 8.1 laptop for a friend’s business. I could not believe how terrible it is. The first thing I had to do was set up the business email accounts (contact@ and bookings@ etc). However, before I could set up any of his business email accounts, I first had to create a Microsoft email account! This account sits there like a sore thumb – no being used for anything. It’s impossible to delete it and just leave the two business accounts.

Then, I had to set up my friend’s email signatures (the business name, a little logo, contact details etc). It wasn’t possible using Microsoft’s mail client! Only text could be used for the email signature. What the hell?

There were a myriad of other problems. One of which is the number of third party anti-virus (and other) apps trying to con the user into subscribing to their services. The laptop was literally like a billboard – peddling useless products he had no interest in.

Then there is the jarring experience of jumping between the modern UI and classic desktop. He was using his only storage via Internet Explorer, clicked on a text file to open it, it jumped to desktop mode!

One of the good points was Internet Explorer. His laptop is a touch screen, and the browsing experience on Internet Explorer was extremely smooth and responsive. However, the downside was it’s annoying using touch on a laptop for a prolonged period of time, and getting to the favourites required: 1. swiping up from the button, 2. clicking in the address bar. Too many steps, too hidden, bad user experience. Also, for whatever reason, Internet Explorer does not scroll/pan as smoothly when using a mouse. Very strange.

To cut a long story short, in the end we installed Ubuntu 13.10 on his core i5 Sony laptop. It was the best move ever. The laptop is used in a shared environment, and the previous Windows 7 laptop was always riddled with viruses and malware. Now, it’s solid. Most of his apps run in the browser, he has Ubuntu One cloud storage, life is good :)

wtphuckdisisstupid

“There were a myriad of other problems. One of which is the number of third party anti-virus (and other) apps trying to con the user into subscribing to their services. The laptop was literally like a billboard – peddling useless products he had no interest in.”

Pay attention, kids! The key word here is “con”. I have been trying to tell people going on two years now: Windows 8 is all about gimmicks meant to milk us long-time Windows users.

Tell everyone you meet about these con games that Microsoft is playing. Tell would-be users to STAY AWAY FROM WINDOWS 8.

Stocklone

I disagree about the Apps page. If you organize by Most Used or Most Recently Installed, this covers 99% of your use cases. For the other 1%, do a search on the apps page. I don’t think there is any usability problem at all. If you want to read through all the apps and find an app in the least efficient way possible, go for it.

Finding crap on the start menu manually by looking through the list of apps was just as big of a pain if not harder since everything was nested in folders and if you didn’t know the top folder, you were screwed.

Joel Hruska

I do not think the Apps page is a terribly great fix, and I think the the ability to change area headers “Apps” “Games,” etc would be an improvement. I do not think the new App organization makes the issue *worse* than Start.

Chris UK

Total wash out! RSAT tools have disappeared. Skype for desktop needed reinstalling. totally happy with the metro stuff but what I really wanted was RSAT to work without having to redo everything. MS have yet again fell short of the mark. One day they will get it right…….. Give them time, they’ve only been doing this for 30 years or so…….

Joel Hruska

Whether the RSAT tools show up may depend on version?

AC Ratone

Folks for $5 you can purchase a utility that will let you run Windows 8 with a total Windows 8 interface, OR a total Windows 7 interface, OR anything in between (you have a huge list of which Windows 8 features you want to retain and which to hide).
For months now I have ran Windows 8 and not seen a single thing on the screen that looked anything different than Windows 7 ( only a very slight exaggeration).
It is Star8 by Stardock and is easily removed if you don’t think it is worth $5. It literally gives back the Start button and all features, layouts, lists, operations of the Win7 Start button.
I have set Start8 to never display the Windows 8 desktop, only the windows 7 desktop. No Charms. No nonsense. (Actually there is a tiny icon on the top of the Start button pop up menu, to jump to the Win8 desktop, but I NEVER use it).

EDIT: Start8 also lets you setup the Windows Key to do whatever you want. You could set that button to swap back and forth from a Win7 to a Win8 world, but I have it set to just Pop UP the Start menu.

jugheadobama

So why isn’t this part of WIN8 natively, other than Microsoft Sucks?

RedRiverRat

What the hell MS? I can run 1080p hi-def but have to live with a crapastic desktop? Or go toe-to-toe fighting ad-ware! NO! Give me animated desktops you fks.

Lee

how do pictures appear on my photo til randoml? I have pictures I have never seen before (looks like from the web) that r slide showing on my photo tile.

Fuckwindows8

Making everything an app is a mistake. What if it doesn’t run? Like the desktop for example.

Fuckwindows8

Making everything an app is a mistake. What if it doesn’t run? Like the desktop for example.

James Loong

still cant ESC out of apps. sometimes accidently press the camera/webcam key on my notebook. then i cant ESC back out to my job. have to drag etc. WTF man. makes me rage for distrupting what i am doing too much. derails your train of thought and concentration. distraction. it was never like that :(

Gammu

Windows 8.0 is nearly unusable for a desktop power user. 8.1 makes it usable, but not much more.

I find it telling the pattern from Windows 8(.1) proponents, from all over the web, whose major defense is some variation of: ‘If you ignore/override everything that makes Windows 8, Windows 8, and configure it to work like Windows 7, then it doesn’t suck.’ Combined with: ‘You’re a hater who’s too stupid and doesn’t want to learn anything new.”

Do they not realize these are the precise reasons it DOES suck?

It’s further telling that you rarely hear from proponents who use Windows 8 as Windows 8, praising the new IE and all those other apps that hork up the entire screen and can’t be minimized. They do praise the ability to run two apps split-screened, but unless the OS runs on a 6502, even mentioning that is embarrassing. And worse, running TWO apps side-by-side is precisely wrong: I want the main app I’m working on to be dead center, with whatever else one either side.

I’ll admit, I don’t like new things…

I don’t like a rudimentary calculator to take up TWO SQUARE FEET of screenspace; I don’t like a safe mode that, when you desperately need it, requires a human sacrifice to accomplish; I don’t like an “app” that tells me the weather in Mumbai, but doesn’t mention apocalyptic tornadoes sending the midwest to OZ; I don’t like an “app” that tells me Jenifer Aniston’s favorite Quinoa recipe that, even when unpinned, still takes up 40MBs and 5-10% of my CPU; I don’t like a compulsory Windows Store “feature” that, unlike all the services in Win7, doesn’t even have the option to disable — An app that detects system idle and decides to spring into action, keeping your CPU frequency bouncing up and your hard drives churning, sucking up the battery juice so it can check for… Who knows… I’ve never actually used Windows Store except to get 8.1 and to check for the updates the tile claims I need, which is pointless because it doesn’t have anything remotely related to updates, instead trapping me in front of a wall of advertising like some hellish offshore warez/porn site without the benefit of actually having anything I want.

MS used to be good at boiling the frog slowly with the intrusiveness of their products, with windows 8 they beat Kermit to death with a sock full of rusty nails. They’ve gone from a healthy os to some kind of nightmare malignant os teratoma.

I can only imagine that anyone who loves this OS would also love their wife putting their socks at the back of the bottom drawer and hiding their reading glasses in a different place every day, with the location written in small print on index cards. You can buy a magnifying glass and get used to it, or you can get a divorce.

http://www.kristiambrosecontent.com kristiambrose

A modest improvement seriously? Obviously you are not having the same issues everyone else. I for one, actually LOVED Windows 8. Then I did the mandatory 8.1 update and I am having all sorts of issues, that have nothing to do with anything you posted.

LoveWin7HateWin8

Review That Makes Sense:
I tried it again. This time Windows 8.1 Professional. The CORE of this system is what they should give to Windows 7. Windows 8 is NOT an OS. It is a STORE pretending to be an OS. It is a store of apps that NO ONE wants.
1) It tries to trick you into using your Hotmail account upon install and creates your hotmail user as the User Account. The two should NOT be the same. A user with multiple Microsoft accounts should be able to use BOTH.
2) The new Start Screen. It is Good but it is Cluttered. It goes Sideways and it goes Downways. It needs to make up its mind.
a) You cannot easily make Columns of apps. Moving apps around the Start screen is a Chore if you want to play them Directly in say 1 column down , then 3 columns down, etc. It tries to do this for you and Fails.
b) Most programs designed for Windows are for the Start Menu Folders. They include links to the Program as well as Notes, or a Web link. Windows 8 Stuffs them together with Gigantic Icons. The Funny thing is, the Icons are Gigantic but you cannot change their Font or Text! You cannot even change the NAME of the Links.

c) There are very limited Options as to what you can do in the Start Screen. The only good thing about it is is the SPACE it provides by acting like a Giant Start Menu. However, it tries to be the MAIN interface rather than an Attachment to the Desktop.
The Start Screen should be what Windows 7 Start Menu was not .It (Windows 7 Start Menu) should be Stretchable Sideways, Up, and Diagonally, but it is not. The Windows 8 Start Screen on the other hand is a Giant Dull Page. Its default Backgrounds are also hard to look at without getting an annoying feeling that this is not a Professional job. it looks like Children and Fantasy artists threw it together. Not Solid GUI Designers.
3) The FONTS cannot be Changed. The Advanced Appearance Settings is Gone. So for Example if I want Ubuntu Fonts, Sure I can install them, but I cannot use them in the Interface.
4) If you Go into Personalize, then Color, and You decide you want an ALL BLACK look, You can, but this makes the Title Bar Font Text Color Disappear! You need to then PATCH your Theme and Find an Alternative Theme to make this work.
5) Information. Windows 8 Provides MUCH more Information to the User. And at the same time it manages to Present it in a way that it is not Obvious. Things that should be in Bold, or Contrast, are not. Input Boxes will be Grey and will make a user think that they are Turned off or not allowed until you click there.
6) The CHARMS Corners are a Hit or Miss. Literally. You can go up and right and it works 6 times out of 10. If you are on the Desktop, this works fine. But in the Start Screen, it becomes more confusing because once you are in Settings, each Settings Screen is different for Each option in the Start Screen. There is NO consistency. Stuff Pops out from the right, and you Click it, and suddenly you will see the LEFT side of the screen with a Pop Out. This inconsistency is Horrible for the GUI as it psychologically confuses the user and they lose focus on what it was they were trying to get at.
7) The 8.1 Start Button right click seems to be Un-customizable.

8) SHARED FOLDERS No Longer show they are Shared in the Status Bar. You have to use Details View and Click More, then ADD those Options. And if you use CCLEANER to Clean out the Explorer Views, you will have to repeat this process.

9) WSD and NetBios Confusion. You have to manually enable Function Discovery Resource Publication Service for WSD to be available as host rather than NetBIOS. Not a big Deal.

10) Microsoft is using DNS Service differently this time. They have made changes so you can not protect yourself with HOSTS File but its still possible. Yet, the Hypocrisy of this is that They offer DO NOT TRACK in IE11. But underneath it, they are still Tracking. DIsable the DNS Service and Your Apps will Stop Working! Took me an hour to figure this out and this is NOT on Google.

11) UAC STILL manages to annoy even the Administrator. This coupled with Tighter rules for Bit Locker. Bit Locker now offers to Lock your Drive in the Drive partition RIGHT CLICK Option by Default! I think this is Horrible and will lead to a LOT of Pain for a user who makes the wrong move. Much like EFS Service, this will cause a lot of problems. The OS should provide OS level Security Separately from User Level security. User Level security should be Interactive, while OS Level Security should be Automatic and also take into consideration 3rd Party Security tools. Windows 8 does not care about the User at all. It is made to ANNOY you.

12) The Lock Screen should Display the On Screen Keyboard. For a Touch Enabled System, you STILL have to go into Accessibility icon, and bring up the OSK. The OSK is only available automatically during the Sign In process but Not during the Lock Screen process. While in Windows 7, you can use Bamboo software to do this and an OSK will be available throughout any Login or LockScreen.

13) SLEEP Option is on the top Right of the Start Screen where the User Name is Shown. It is NOT available by Right Clicking the Start Button. All Power options should be available to the User on the Top right of the Start Screen so the user does not have to fiddle with Charms Bar.

There are MANY MANY more problems with this system that I may have missed, but in Summary, it makes it difficult to get to where you need to Go and Do what you need to get Done.

Last but not least, it is Not any faster than Windows 7, and who the hell in this day and age Reboots anyway? Windows 7 comes out of sleep even faster than Windows 8. Because it doesn’t need to load that Start screen.

Microsoft, You could have just made Windows 7 better by allowing the Start Menu to be Resized. And Allowing Font Size Changes without Icon Views Also Changing. You could have Done this so People who wear Glasses would be able to Choose what it is they want Increased, the Font Size or The Icon Size. Allow People to change Fonts easily, Font Sizes, Appearances, etc. But No. It is a disappointment, because when the time comes to really move to a New Operating System out of Functional Necessity, I don’t think people who do Actual Work will be looking at Windows 8.
I have my doubts about Windows 9…. I think Microsoft has dug a hole so deep, they are going the way of IBM. In the next 15 years, we’ll see a new guy in town, giving us what Apple, Google, and Microsoft Failed at. I hope you guys liked my review. I will add more, but I do not recommend you spend your money on Windows 8.1.

LoveWin7HateWin8

I HIGHLY recommend a Program called EVERYTHING. That is the name of the program. It is highly effective and its purpose is simple. Local Search. It makes Windows Indexing look like Childsplay. Once you have this tool, you can say goodbye to Windows Indexing. It is very customizable and finds Everything and Anything on your local drives. After using this, you will NO Longer use Windows search. It works in both Windows 7 and Windows 8.

I also agree with the user below who states that its not about Wanting to or Having the Ablitiy to learn something new, NO, but its about does this “NEW” actually do anything BETTER? The answer is no. It does not. It does not offer FUNCTIONAL advancement to the User. All it does is throw things around. The core of it is indeed good! But that’s where it ends. The GUI (Both Start Screen and Desktop) destroys this system. And the GUI from a User’s perspective is MUCH more important. From an Administrative level perspective, Windows 8 is powerful, but interacting with that power is about the most annoying thing a person can experience.

Timothy R.

Oh my god this ridiculous 8.1 update took over a Hour and a Half I work from home and I do a lot of work from my laptop. With this lovely piece of god damn shit Windows 8.1 update my laptop literally crashes every minute or two literally every time I open a window it crashes. when I open a PDF Doc. and I’m going to electronically sign it MAJOR CRASH TOOK MY LAPTOP 5 MINUTES TO GOD DAMN RECOVER!!! It wasn’t like this before yesterday when I ACCIDENTLY Clicked “OK” – to the upgrade that pops up immediately after signing in. I’ve been working since 6 A.M. it is now 8:30 I have had my computer crash constantly. GOD DAMN WINDOWS they install this piece of shit update so you buy more of their products hopefully you’ll just buy a new laptop and new every god damn thing. Son of A Fucking Bitch Windows!

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