Google Ads

Hey there! We're an open community that values free speech and free thinking on all topics. If that sounds like you, then login or register. It's free and easy. You can also connect with your FaceBook account. Or you can just comment on anything you find of interest, but your comments will then have to wait for moderation before they show.

[QUOTE=RAM;24612]I think that big circular arrangement of stones is very interesting - cuz I like concentric circles, I guess.

But the flood story is almost certainly a myth (like the parables Jesus taught), and if not, then local. There is no evidence of a recent world wide flood, so "geologically informed" Christians have long given up on that.

Can you please explain what "almost certain" means?

And finally, the gap theory has no foundation in the Bible. It seems really really strange that folks would want to invent and insert millions of years of undocumented history into the "gap" between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2.

I agree. But what does it matter if it's almost certainly a myth - I dont get it?????????

But the flood story is almost certainly a myth (like the parables Jesus taught), and if not, then local. There is no evidence of a recent world wide flood, so "geologically informed" Christians have long given up on that.

Can you please explain what "almost certain" means?

"Almost certain" means "very close to certain." I generally refrain from declaring "certainty" about things that I can not prove absolutely. It is possible, for example, that there was a global flood about 4000 years ago that killed all the land animals just like the Bible seems to say when interpreted literally. But if that's true, then we would have to believe that God miraculously placed all the animals all over the planet (kangaroos in Australia, penguins in Antarctica, etc.) as well as the fossil records "apparently" going back millions of years, just so it would look like they evolved there. Logically, that is a possibility, so I can not say with absolute certainty that the global flood as recorded in the Bible is a myth, but I can say that it is "almost certainly" a myth.

Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.

Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

"Almost certain" means "very close to certain." I generally refrain from declaring "certainty" about things that I can not prove absolutely. It is possible, for example, that there was a global flood about 4000 years ago that killed all the land animals just like the Bible seems to say when interpreted literally. But if that's true, then we would have to believe that God miraculously placed all the animals all over the planet (kangaroos in Australia, penguins in Antarctica, etc.) as well as the fossil records "apparently" going back millions of years, just so it would look like they evolved there. Logically, that is a possibility, so I can not say with absolute certainty that the global flood as recorded in the Bible is a myth, but I can say that it is "almost certainly" a myth.

exactly my point, the use of terms like "Almost certain" "Probably", and most likely", In my opinion are easly dealt with in kind with the followng,

"Almost certianly not", "Probably not" and "most unlikely", They are bastardisations of the English language and nothing more than unconvincing Advertising Agency Copy manipulation speak. These are the words that disinformation terrorists love to use. Try to avoid them, your better than that.

Another brilliant one is "Imagine..." Which gives the disinformation, logomachistic, truth mangler the opportunity to invite you to conceptualise all manner of lies built under the illusion that you have granted him permsission by opening your imagination to their suggestion. Very cunning, exceedingly clever, but equally fiendish and easily spotted.

Here is an example from my book...The following is a quote from Richard Dawkins in the God Delusion

Imagine that SETI* does come up with unequivocal evidence of extra terrestrial intelligence, followed perhaps, by a massive transmission of knowledge and wisdom, along the science fiction lines of Fred Holes A for Andromeda and Carl Saga’s Contact. How should we respond? A pardonable reaction would be something akin to worship, for any civilization capable of broadcasting a signal over such an immense distance is likely to be greatly superior to ours. Even if that civilization is not more advanced than ours at the time of transmission, the enormous distance between us entitles us to calculate that they must be millennia ahead of us by the time the message reaches us (unless they have driven themselves extinct, which is not unlikely) Page 98 The God Delusion Richard Dawkin

I mean really, the Lord loves a trier so God bless Richard DAwkins, but SETI hasn’t unequivocally come down with so much as a common cold let alone evidence of extraterrestrials and Imagine was John Lennon’s work. His imagination doesn’t entitle him to anything, certainly not to be taken seriously.

In the space of one paragraph Dawkins has imagined/conjured out of thin air (possibly with Derren Brown and Penn and Teller’s assistance) unequivocal evidence of extra terrestrial intelligence, breathed life into them, received a message from millennia away because he's entitled to make that assumption, why I don’t know, and then assumed, by now, due to their obvious (again only to him) advanced intelligence that they have most likely wiped themselves out.

Brilliant, I love Dawkins work. He is the greatest science fiction comedy writer of our time followed closely by David Icke. And it's even funnier that he wins his awards for legitimate non fiction.

One more time for effect

Imagine that SETI does come up with unequivocal evidence of extra terrestrial intelligence, followed perhaps, by a massive transmission of knowledge and wisdom, along the science fiction lines of Fred Holes A for Andromeda and Carl Saga’s Contact. How should we respond? A pardonable reaction would be something akin to – wake up Dawkins, wake up man and don’t you dare stop taking your medication again.

Now I know this is out of context from both my book and Dawkins book, but take my word for it, Dawkins was being serious with this idea he wanted us to imagine, he was definately not joking. Bare in mind this is man who was trying to argue God is a delusion, and folks, he doesn't come up with much more than this is in 440 pages of tripe, reading it has been like enduring 13.5 billion years of evolution trudging up his imagined Mt Improbable, and the God Delusion won the galaxy British Book Award in 2007. Quite unbeliveable what the world has come to. Im "almost certain" Christ is "most probably", "perhaps" not unlikely to come back at oooh say about 8.30 Sunday Morning. I cant say what date though, or the year. Im quite certain I know though. But I'm not telling you.

"Almost certain" means "very close to certain." I generally refrain from declaring "certainty" about things that I can not prove absolutely. It is possible, for example, that there was a global flood about 4000 years ago that killed all the land animals just like the Bible seems to say when interpreted literally. But if that's true, then we would have to believe that God miraculously placed all the animals all over the planet (kangaroos in Australia, penguins in Antarctica, etc.) as well as the fossil records "apparently" going back millions of years, just so it would look like they evolved there. Logically, that is a possibility, so I can not say with absolute certainty that the global flood as recorded in the Bible is a myth, but I can say that it is "almost certainly" a myth.

I almost certainly have no idea what you almost certainly mean, but that makes two us.

Rather than start another thread, it looks as if we can keep this one going and build on what has been said rather than start all over again and have the same arguments presented.
As I read through these posts I see a little bit of truth on all sides which means that on all sides there is generally a large dose of untruth. I do not claim to have all the answers or to have less misconceptions than others, but in weighing the balance of the arguments presented with what the whole of the Bible says on a matter, I am content to favour what the Bible says.

It would be better if we could stay on one topic only without digressing into other subjects which are big subjects in their own right. This makes for longer posts covering lots of different arguments. I shall respond to a few of the false ideas (IMHO) and put forward a few thoughts to add to the mix of comments. I have split the text up into sections so it does not have to be read fully.

The Nephilim This is the topic of this thread so this is where I will begin. A major man-made myth has been created around the Nephilim and a lie has been promulgated around the world leading millions astray. These few verses from Gen 6:1-4 have been grossly taken out of context and given meaning that is completely false. People have conveniently forgot that there was a Great Flood which intervened and wiped out the giants mentioned. The myth created about fallen angels having sex with women, forgets the principle that only species of the same kind can breed and there could not have been offspring. God’s Holy Angels are not of flesh and blood and the whole idea of intercourse between Angels and humans is an anathema.
However plausible an explanation for Genesis 6:1-4 is given, the fact is; the Great Flood wiped out those people. Therefore, their offspring could not have continued into the period after the Flood.

What did Jesus (Son of God) believe? I hold to that which Jesus believed. Jesus believed the Genesis story. Jesus studied the scriptures for 20+ years before he started his ministry. We do not know what other revelations Jesus received from his Heavenly Father. Jesus did not have to know how God’s power works, it was sufficient for Jesus to be convinced by what he read in the scriptures and what he could see with his eyes.

Pre flood: The conditions before the Great Flood were very different to conditions after the flood. There is no reason why Dinosaurs and man could not exist at the same time before the flood when both would have been much larger living in bariatric conditions.

The Great Flood Fossils are created by rapid changing conditions. Coal has to be formed rapidly; it does not come about by trees naturally dying. The rapid changes necessary are explained by the Great Flood of which there is enough geological evidence to say that it was world-wide and so refute the claim that the flood was local. We know the destructive power of one Tsunami, therefore it is not surprising to see great changes to the topograhy resulting from the ebb and flow of water over the earth.
Incidentally, all the water of the Flood period is still with us on earth; the oceans just got deeper and the dry land raised as part of all the changes that took place. The massive upheaval is partly explained in Gen 7:11 when the 'fountains of the deep were broken.'
Evolution does not take into account changing conditions brought about by God. Changes did take place including the weather. Noah saw a rainbow for the first time which speaks of conditions being different, otherwise why did Noah not see a rainbow pre Flood?

Noah and his family We can rightly conclude that Noah and his family must have been larger is frame than the generations that followed. This would account for there being some genetic differences that still enabled some tribes to exhibit largeness (giants) such as those in Gath. These in Gath also had the unusual the unusual feature of having six fingers and six toes on each limb. ( Chron 20:6) This abnormality did not make them non-human. Their abnormality died out as these giants were put to death. The normal couse of development after the flood would have been for offspring to grow smaller according to the atmospheric conditions post Flood. God had also said (pre Flood ) that he would shorten man’s life span to 120 years from the 600 years that was normal, or in the case of Methuselah, 969 years. How was this to be?

It is God’s prerogative to intervene, and accelerate processes and do what He has to do to bring about the fulfilment of His plan for this earth, which God has declared from the beginning. Who else is able to tell you a thing before it happens? Humans cannot tell the future. The only conclusive test by which God says you can test Him is to see if what He has declared before time comes to pass. If things soken of by God come to pass, God is proven, if things spoken do not come to pass, God is disproved. From the balance of evidence supporting events predicted, I use this as my basis for believing God and His Word as Truth. I continue my search to find understanding of the parts of God’s Word that remain obscure to me as I am convinced God does not lie.
The following quote from Isaiah should be read in context of the whole chapter and to whom God was speaking. The Words of God are recorded for our learning and not just applicable to God’s people at the time they were spoken.
Isa 48: 3 I have declared the former things from the beginning; and they went forth out of my mouth, and I showed them; I did them suddenly, and they came to pass. 4 Because I knew that thou art obstinate, and thy neck is an iron sinew, and thy brow brass; 5 I have even from the beginning declared it to thee; before it came to pass I showed it thee: lest thou shouldest say, Mine idol hath done them, and my graven image, and my molten image, hath commanded them. 6 Thou hast heard, see all this; and will not ye declare it? I have showed thee new things from this time, even hidden things, and thou didst not know them. 7 They are created now, and not from the beginning; even before the day when thou heardest them not; lest thou shouldest say, Behold, I knew them. 8 Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened:

The isolation of animals

The most obvious problem is the distribution of animals. Why does Australia have kangaroos? How did they get there after the flood just a few thousand years ago? Did they hop from Mount Ararat? Why does all the evidence point to them evolving there on that continent over millions of years? Folks have collected up lists of the problems with the flood and they seem insurmountable to me.

I will use this one example to finish on. I have found one explanation for how animals became isolated and therefore this is not a problem for me. Genesis 10:25. Peleg; for in his days was the earth divided; I can use the dividing and separation of the continental plates to explain how lands, peoples and animals became isoltated. In places, the plates separated by thousands of miles and meant that people and animals did not have to travel as far as might be imagined before the land became divided. Animals have in-born instinct which no one can say how migrating animals acquire their instinct. Honeybees and the construction of honeycomb are the classic example which no one can explain. This remains a mystery, yet it happens. It is not unreasonable to assume that animals will migrate back to their place of origin or to climates that best suit them. The proliferation of species is accepted as like breeding of dogs (originating from the wolf). Selective breeding has given rise to so many different breeds. These are varieties of Kinds. The wolf and dog are still of the same kind. Dogs are dogs and cats are cats. There is nothing to say that people had not already partly divided before the Tower of Babel but then Humans had the ingenuity to make boats and cross water after the Tower of Bable episode when people were divided by language. This was an intervention by God and languages did not come about by natural development.

God’s hand at work We cannot limit the hand of God in causing the earth to be populated quickly from the different Kinds saved on the ark. Dinosaurs died out in the Flood as they would not be required afterwards. From the kinds saved all the other species stemmed. Insects would have survived and God would see that the insect population likewise proliferated after the Flood. I do not think we have to look for problems that God had made provision for. Take away God and you do have problems. It might seem simplistic to say that God would see that the earth was replenished with plants and animals, we have no way of knowing whether God did or did not. Whether to side with God as an explanation of doing things that we cannot know or understand, I am on the side of God and will wait for His revelation to come.
Taking into account the Creator’s hand at work in bringing about His plan solves many of the problems created by non-believers. The problem for Evolutionists is that God could have intoduced built-in age at the time of Creation. For example; were trees made fully-grown and if so, did they have tree-rings? Rings and ice layers or sedimentary layers are only indications of changing conditions and do not have to relate to yearly cycles. Once this is realized, a bunch of problems is eliminated.

Let’s keep chiselling away at the difficulties. Some are posed by those who have not read what God has written. We also have to chisel away at the problems presented when we have readGod’s Word and not understood. We must keep open minds and take on board all truth when we discern it.

Rather than start another thread, it looks as if we can keep this one going and build on what has been said rather than start all over again and have the same arguments presented.
As I read through these posts I see a little bit of truth on all sides which means that on all sides there is generally a large dose of untruth. I do not claim to have all the answers or to have less misconceptions than others, but in weighing the balance of the arguments presented with what the whole of the Bible says on a matter, I am content to favour what the Bible says.

It would be better if we could stay on one topic only without digressing into other subjects which are big subjects in their own right. This makes for longer posts covering lots of different arguments. I shall respond to a few of the false ideas (IMHO) and put forward a few thoughts to add to the mix of comments. I have split the text up into sections so it does not have to be read fully.

The Nephilim This is the topic of this thread so this is where I will begin. A major man-made myth has been created around the Nephilim and a lie has been promulgated around the world leading millions astray. These few verses from Gen 6:1-4 have been grossly taken out of context and given meaning that is completely false. People have conveniently forgot that there was a Great Flood which intervened and wiped out the giants mentioned. The myth created about fallen angels having sex with women, forgets the principle that only species of the same kind can breed and there could not have been offspring. God’s Holy Angels are not of flesh and blood and the whole idea of intercourse between Angels and humans is an anathema.
However plausible an explanation for Genesis 6:1-4 is given, the fact is; the Great Flood wiped out those people. Therefore, their offspring could not have continued into the period after the Flood.

Hey there David,

Well stated. I agree that the theories about Nephilim being the product of angel/human sex is ridiculous, but on the other hand, we need to remember that it very may well be what some of the NT authors believed. Jude quoted from the book of Enoch as if it were Scripture, and Enoch teaches that the Nephilim were the product of sex between angels and humans. This seems to be confirmed by Jude's comparison of the angels with Sodom and the going after "strange flesh." So though I agree that this teaching is false, it looks like it was probably believed by Jude and incorporated in his book.

Originally Posted by David M

What did Jesus (Son of God) believe? I hold to that which Jesus believed. Jesus believed the Genesis story. Jesus studied the scriptures for 20+ years before he started his ministry. We do not know what other revelations Jesus received from his Heavenly Father. Jesus did not have to know how God’s power works, it was sufficient for Jesus to be convinced by what he read in the scriptures and what he could see with his eyes.

Do you really know what Jesus believed? If we take it at face value, it appears he was a Young Earth Creationist. If that is true, then Jesus was obviously as ignorant about the true age of the earth as most of the people living in the first century. But if Jesus didn't believe in Young Earth Creationism, then you have no idea what he really believed! So you are stuck between two horns of a dilemma: Either 1) Jesus was ignorant and wrong, or 2) You don't know what he believed.

Originally Posted by David M

Pre flood: The conditions before the Great Flood were very different to conditions after the flood. There is no reason why Dinosaurs and man could not exist at the same time before the flood when both would have been much larger living in bariatric conditions.

There's one reason dinosaurs and humans couldn't co-exist. The dinosaurs went extinct long before humans arose.

Originally Posted by David M

The Great Flood Fossils are created by rapid changing conditions. Coal has to be formed rapidly; it does not come about by trees naturally dying. The rapid changes necessary are explained by the Great Flood of which there is enough geological evidence to say that it was world-wide and so refute the claim that the flood was local. We know the destructive power of one Tsunami, therefore it is not surprising to see great changes to the topograhy resulting from the ebb and flow of water over the earth.
Incidentally, all the water of the Flood period is still with us on earth; the oceans just got deeper and the dry land raised as part of all the changes that took place. The massive upheaval is partly explained in Gen 7:11 when the 'fountains of the deep were broken.'
Evolution does not take into account changing conditions brought about by God. Changes did take place including the weather. Noah saw a rainbow for the first time which speaks of conditions being different, otherwise why did Noah not see a rainbow pre Flood?

You've got to be joking! The idea of a global flood has been debunked by geologists and biologists for over a century.

Don't you realize that if you appeal to some bits of science here or there to prove you belief in the flood, you must admit all the rest of the science that proves it didn't happen? If you live by the sword of science, you will also die by it.

Originally Posted by David M

It is God’s prerogative to intervene, and accelerate processes and do what He has to do to bring about the fulfilment of His plan for this earth, which God has declared from the beginning. Who else is able to tell you a thing before it happens? Humans cannot tell the future. The only conclusive test by which God says you can test Him is to see if what He has declared before time comes to pass. If things soken of by God come to pass, God is proven, if things spoken do not come to pass, God is disproved. From the balance of evidence supporting events predicted, I use this as my basis for believing God and His Word as Truth. I continue my search to find understanding of the parts of God’s Word that remain obscure to me as I am convinced God does not lie.

Could you name the three fulfilled prophecies that have the best objectively verifiable evidence? Don't present things that are only "confirmed" by the Bible (like the virgin birth and resurrection) since they cannot be verified by anything outside the Bible. I'm talking about real prophecies that we know were written before the fact and that we know from secular history were fulfilled.

Thanks!

Originally Posted by David M

The isolation of animals

I will use this one example to finish on. I have found one explanation for how animals became isolated and therefore this is not a problem for me. Genesis 10:25. Peleg; for in his days was the earth divided; I can use the dividing and separation of the continental plates to explain how lands, peoples and animals became isoltated. In places, the plates separated by thousands of miles and meant that people and animals did not have to travel as far as might be imagined before the land became divided.

That's a creative solution but there are a few problems. First, it contradicts the science of geology that you are using to support it! (Live by the sword, die by the sword). There is absolutely no evidence of the tectonic plates moving thousands of miles in a short time some 4000 years ago. Second, the distribution of the animals does not fit your theory. Why are there unique species on little tiny islands in the Pacific ocean? The answer is obvious - they evolved there over a period of hundreds of thousands of years. Your theory cannot explain how they got there.

Originally Posted by David M

There is nothing to say that people had not already partly divided before the Tower of Babel but then Humans had the ingenuity to make boats and cross water after the Tower of Bable episode when people were divided by language. This was an intervention by God and languages did not come about by natural development.

Your theory contradicts the science of linguistics which traces the origin of languages to regions separated by thousands of miles over a span of many thousands of years.

Originally Posted by David M

God’s hand at work We cannot limit the hand of God in causing the earth to be populated quickly from the different Kinds saved on the ark. Dinosaurs died out in the Flood as they would not be required afterwards. From the kinds saved all the other species stemmed. Insects would have survived and God would see that the insect population likewise proliferated after the Flood. I do not think we have to look for problems that God had made provision for. Take away God and you do have problems. It might seem simplistic to say that God would see that the earth was replenished with plants and animals, we have no way of knowing whether God did or did not. Whether to side with God as an explanation of doing things that we cannot know or understand, I am on the side of God and will wait for His revelation to come.

The problem has nothing to do with God's freedom to do what he likes. The problem is that the evidence does not match your theories. Are you saying that God specially created the 40,000 species of spiders about 4000 years ago? That contradicts science. Are you saying that he created the 12,000 species of ants 4000 years ago? And that's just two kinds of insects! The evidence totally contradicts your theories.

Originally Posted by David M

Taking into account the Creator’s hand at work in bringing about His plan solves many of the problems created by non-believers. The problem for Evolutionists is that God could have intoduced built-in age at the time of Creation. For example; were trees made fully-grown and if so, did they have tree-rings? Rings and ice layers or sedimentary layers are only indications of changing conditions and do not have to relate to yearly cycles. Once this is realized, a bunch of problems is eliminated.

If that were true, then the heavens would declare the deception of God, not his glory, since the heavens look to be about 13.7 billion years old.

Originally Posted by David M

Let’s keep chiselling away at the difficulties. Some are posed by those who have not read what God has written. We also have to chisel away at the problems presented when we have readGod’s Word and not understood. We must keep open minds and take on board all truth when we discern it.

I very much agree that we should keep our minds open!

The evidence that the Bible contains scientific errors seems to me to be overwhelming and conclusive. And I'm happy to share that evidence if you are so inclined.

All the best,

Richard

Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.

Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

Matt 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,

I am not questioning Jesus’s understanding of creation but saying that if Jesus believed God created male and female, I believe the same.
Why would Jesus need to know the age of the earth? Not knowing does not make him ignorant. He believed his Heavenly Father and God revealed to him all that was necessary for Jesus to know. Jesus would have had a better understanding of the scriptures he was reading than your or I do. Knowing the actual age of the earth is irrelevant.

Regarding the age of the earth and dating, I find there are scientists who say that the scientific methods used can be very inaccurate. The way conclusions are drawn scientista will also say is bad science.

The global idea of the flood as far as I am aware is alive and kicking. I do not see the evidence going away. I do not see the evidence in science as you do for saying science disproves the Flood.

As I do not agree with the accuracy of the dating methods and the validity of the dates you quote, I am not going to get involved with arguing dates. Maybe you have a better understanding of the quote; in those days was the earth divided and you will tell me what it means. I will go along with what you say if it does not conflict with God’s Word. I am not rigid on the interpretation if I can find a better one. I am looking to increase my understanding of Truth.

I believe the Tower of Babel story and that God divided the people by giving them separate languages. What you are saying about science of linquistics tracing the origin of languages to regions separated by thousands of miles over a span of many thousands of years does not sound too different. They do not appear to be tracing linguistics back to one language. There is not much evidence going back beyond six or seven thousand years.

Concerning the number of species of insects, how long does it take for different in varieties to emerge as they breed and adapt to the environment they live in?
There is no reason not to accept that God could have easily replenished the stock of insects and many could have survived the Flood. Maybe we can start a new post; Are insects living creatures?
What about the insects God produced on demand at times of plagues or when He defeated armies through pestilences? 'God does what He has to' is phrase I have picked up from another thread on this interesting forum.

I do not look at the Bible as a scientific book that has to answer to inaccurate science and the fallibility of man to get things right. God does not have to work to fit in with science. Miracles do not conform to science. When God acts using Nature could not this give rise to dating discrepancies?
If God creates a tree in a day that would have taken 200 years to grow, it is not deception when scientists say the tree from what they determine is 200 years old. This is their confusion which God does not have to answer for.

Gilgal Rephaim Rujm el hiri

Gilgal rephaim was built by jacob. A pillar in the middle and a circle/wheel/Galgal around it. the hebrew word is גלגל

GENESIS 31:41 - 41 These twenty years have I been in thy house: I served thee fourteen years for thy two daughters, and six years for thy flock; and thou hast changed my wages ten times. 42 Except the God of my father, the God of Abraham, and the Fear of Isaac, had been on my side, surely now hadst thou sent me away empty. God hath seen mine affliction and the labour of my hands, and gave judgment yesternight.' 43 And Laban answered and said unto Jacob: 'The daughters are my daughters, and the children are my children, and the flocks are my flocks, and all that thou seest is mine; and what can I do this day for these my daughters, or for their children whom they have borne? 44 And now come, let us make a covenant, I and thou; and let it be for a witness between me and thee.' 45 And Jacob took a stone, and set it up for a '''pillar'''. 46 And Jacob said unto his brethren: 'Gather stones'; and they took stones, and made a '''wheel (GAL)'''. And they did eat there by the '''Wheel'''. 47 And Laban called it Jegar-sahadutha; but Jacob called it '''Galad''' . 48 And Laban said: 'This '''wheel''' is witness between me and thee this day.' Therefore was the name of it called Galad; 49 and Mizpah, for he said: 'The LORD watch between me and thee, when we are absent one from another. 50 If thou shalt afflict my daughters, and if thou shalt take wives beside my daughters, no man being with us; see, God is witness betwixt me and thee.' 51 And Laban said to Jacob: 'Behold this '''wheel''', and behold the '''pillar''', which I have set up betwixt me and thee. 52 This heap be witness, and the pillar be witness, that I will not pass over this heap to thee, and that thou shalt not pass over '''this wheel and this pillar''' unto me, for harm. 53 The God of Abraham, and the God of Nahor, the God of their father, judge betwixt us.' And Jacob swore by the Fear of his father Isaac. 54 And Jacob offered a sacrifice in the mountain, and called his brethren to eat bread; and they did eat bread, and tarried all night in the mountain.

This is clearly the GAL AD which means Until the WHEEL which served as a border between Jacob and Laban. Syria and Israel are cousins. Syrians come from Abraham's brother Nahor and Israelis are ALL HALF SYRIAN since Leah and Rachel are both of Nahor and their maids too. There should be peace between Syria and Israel but they forgot about this ancient structure. More than that. When Moses directs Joshua to the Mountains Gerizim and Ebal he gives him strict instructions to place the blessing and the curse.

How did Joshua know to arrive at the Mountains of Gerizim and Ebal. There are so many in Israel???

Deuteronomy 11:26 - 26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse: 27 the blessing, if ye shall hearken unto the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day; 28 and the curse, if ye shall not hearken unto the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known. {S} 29 And it shall come to pass, when the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, that thou shalt set the blessing upon mount Gerizim, and the curse upon mount Ebal. 30 Are they not beyond the Jordan, behind the way of the going down of the sun, in the land of the Canaanites that dwell in the Arabah, opposite Galgal, beside the terebinths of Moreh? 31 For ye are to pass over the Jordan to go in to possess the land which the LORD your God giveth you, and ye shall possess it, and dwell therein. 32 And ye shall observe to do all the statutes and the ordinances which I set before you this day.

Bet el - the chosen place of the tabernacle. The place of Abrahams altar and also Jacobs pillar and i beleive the place where abraham took Isaac.

Gen 12: 4 So Abram went, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him; and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran. 5 And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their substance that they had gathered, and the souls that they had gotten in Haran; and they went forth to go into the land of Canaan; and into the land of Canaan they came. 6 And Abram passed through the land unto the place of Shechem, unto the terebinth of Moreh. And the Canaanite was then in the land. 7 And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said: 'Unto thy seed will I give this land'; and he builded there an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him. 8 And he removed from thence unto the mountain on the east of Beth-el, and pitched his tent, having Beth-el on the west, and Ai on the east; and he builded there an altar unto the LORD, and called upon the name of the LORD. 9 And Abram journeyed, going on still toward the South. {P} (SHILO)

Gen 14:1 And Abram went up out of Egypt, he, and his wife, and all that he had, and Lot with him, into the South. 2 And Abram was very rich in cattle, in silver, and in gold. 3 And he went on his journeys from the South even to Beth-el, unto the place where his tent had been at the beginning, between Beth-el and Ai; 4 unto the place of the altar, which he had made there at the first; and Abram called there on the name of the LORD. 5 (SHILO)

Gen 28:10 And Jacob went out from Beer-sheba, and went toward Haran. 11 And he lighted upon the place, and tarried there all night, because the sun was set; and he took one of the stones of the place, and put it under his head, and lay down in that place to sleep. 12 And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven; and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it. 13 And, behold, the LORD stood beside him, and said: 'I am the LORD, the God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac. The land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed. 14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south. And in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed. 15 And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee whithersoever thou goest, and will bring thee back into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.' 16 And Jacob awaked out of his sleep, and he said: 'Surely the LORD is in this place; and I knew it not.' 17 And he was afraid, and said: 'How full of awe is this place! this is none other than the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven.' 18 And Jacob rose up early in the morning, and took the stone that he had put under his head, and set it up for a pillar, and poured oil upon the top of it. 19 And he called the name of that place Beth-el, but the name of the city was Luz at the first. 20 And Jacob vowed a vow, saying: 'If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on, 21 so that I come back to my father's house in peace, then shall the LORD be my God, 22 and this stone, which I have set up for a pillar, shall be God's house; and of all that Thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto Thee.'

As we know the israelites defeated the armies of OG and also Sihon in the Golan heights and Mount Hermon. They were Giants. After they defeated them they crossed the Border and from this wheel they knew they had to go West towards the setting of the sun to find these two great mountains. It is my beleif that these two mountains are In today's Mountain called MERON. Meron is a Massive Mountain, the largest one in Israel after Hermon and it consists of many smaller Hills . I beleive these are Gerizim and Ebal. . Since we find a structure on Mount Meron called elijahs Chair and this is clearly a perfect description of the pillar that jacob built in bet el. Shilo being the gathering place of the tabernacle. TOday SHilo is called Tomb of SHammai. But it is really the Stone that Joshua laid in Joshua 24 last chapter.

' 25 So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day, and set them a statute and an ordinance in Shechem. 26 And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God; and he took a great stone, and set it up there under the oak that was by the sanctuary of the LORD. {P}(which was in SHilo)

27 And Joshua said unto all the people: 'Behold, this stone shall be a witness against us; for it hath heard all the words of the LORD which He spoke unto us; it shall be therefore a witness against you, lest ye deny your God.' 28 So Joshua sent the people away, every man unto his inheritance. {P}

29 And it came to pass after these things, that Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of the LORD, died, being a hundred and ten years old. 30 And they buried him in the border of his inheritance in Timnath-serah, which is in the hill-country of Ephraim, on the north of the mountain of Gaash. 31 And Israel served the LORD all the days of Joshua, and all the days of the elders that outlived Joshua, and had known all the work of the LORD, that He had wrought for Israel. 32 And the bones of Joseph, which the children of Israel brought up out of Egypt, buried they in Shechem, in the parcel of ground which Jacob bought of the sons of Hamor the father of Shechem for a hundred pieces of money; and they became the inheritance of the children of Joseph. 33 And Eleazar the son of Aaron died; and they buried him in the Hill of Phinehas his son, which was given him in mount Ephraim. {P} (there are many graves in this Area beleived to be famous rabbi's but i beleive they are graves of Priests and Joshua and other important people.

It is clear that The chair of eliahu in Meron is Bet-el of jacob. But where is Shilo? the place of the tabernacle.

Judges 21:19 But look, there is the annual festival of the Lord in Shiloh, which lies north of Bethel, east of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem, and south of Lebonah.”

If we go north from bet el we arrive at Bar yochai which is the original place called shechm. But on the way to that place on the east we arrive at the place called Grave of Shammai. But it isnt really his grave. Since we know Joshua set up a great stone next to the tabernacle at shilo, this is SHilo since the stone on shammai\s grave is HUGE and there is no way they could lift it. Are these all coincidences? You have to go to these places to understand how perfectly they fit with the descriptions.

Now you might argue that these stones are HUGE and how did Jacob and The israelites set them up?? It is known that there were Giants in those days and they could have helped jacob and the israelites set them up as prisoners . Or maybe Jacob was a really Mighty man since we know he fought with an angel. It remains a mystery but the description of these places is far too accurate to be coincidence.