I cannot believe this.... @rafatali Funny how all the clusterfuck discusses future of jrnlsm & paywalls over the wknd, and maybe 1 actually has a biz role at a media org. @rafatali At the cost of repeating: those who can, do, those who can't, discuss the future of journalism ... Rafat Ali is the Founder/Editor, paidContent.org & Contentnext Media http://twitter.com/rafatal...
- Jay Rosen

"@rafatali Man I so walked into that one. I did warn last night I would be xtra cranky this month of fasting".. Perhaps days of fasting should be also days of staying away from the internets....
- Bora Zivkovic

I find it astounding. I really do. We're supposed to shut up and listen to the people who run media companies? FUCK YOU!
- Jay Rosen

Those who are NOT running media businesses can't possibly do much worse than those who currently are.
- The Web's Wendell Wittler

I know I don't count in paidcontent.org's eyes, because I am not a player, a CFO or CEO, but as a purely symbolic statement from the navel gazing gallery, I am not contributing to paidcontent.org's success in any way from here on, until we get some kind of explanation for this contempt festival Rafat decided to stage. I have linked a lot to that site, but now I would feel sleazy sending anyone there.
- Jay Rosen

Yeah, they are doing such a fantastic job of running the Media organizations- must be because they don't discuss/brainstorm/think outside the box. It is a self-perpetuating system/change is a threat/cannot see the forest for the trees. Name calling, nasty anger and degrading a discussion are always signs of weakness-giving your power away.
- frankiecarl

My last comment was directed @rafatali hope there was no misunderstanding. I also left a note on his twitter site.
- frankiecarl

Well... In your heat you misrepresent Rafat Ali, I think. His point was less that there should be a prohibition on people who are not journalists or publishers commenting on "the future of journalism", but more that the people who really understand the business of media are actively running media companies. He's right, surely? The amount of misinformation propagated by media commenters...
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- Jason Pontin

@Jason Interesting. Do you have a link to some more detailed explanation of "the circulation revenues from a reader"?
- Anders Norgaard

I'll find out soon enough? It's tolerably obvious. Still, Jay is right: the SUL was grossly distorting of Twitter's supposed mission (was, in @ev's own phrase, "a hack"), and Lists will be both more useful and more important to the service's users in the long run.
- Jason Pontin

I would only add, as some one who has written about "how to save media," that the business practices that underwrote journalism were *ever* multiple and partial and complexly related. It's pundits who don't really know the biz of media who wring their hands, asking for a single, simple thing to save the profession and form of journalism.
- Jason Pontin

"The base is not reality-based" has entered the discourse. Check this out..... "To frame a message and its manifestations as somehow above logic is also, after all, to frame them as beyond logic. It’s to delegitimize the whole movement—and, yes, it is a movement—as a political entity. It’s to give credence to the oft-repeated claim that 'the base is not reality-based,' and to suggest that a loyal opposition is also a laughable one. Numbers can be symbolic, sure. But first they have to be accurate."
- Jay Rosen

The author writes on how this post went viral http://www.newsfuturist.com/2009... ... "As best I can reconstruct, a few of my Twitter followers started retweeting the post link late Wednesday. The firestorm really started, though, after former washingtonpost.com Editor Jim Brady and later NYU journalism professor Jay Rosen tweeted it."
- Jay Rosen

I understand objectively there's strengths and weaknesses, but I also find that this discussion is teetering of the verge of irrelevance. Can you make it clear to me (in seriousness) the value from this friendfeed versus anti friendfeed arguement? Are we looking forward to the next tool? Or to making improvements to friendfeed?
- Malcolm Bastien

Do you think it was specifically an anti-Friendfeed rant, Robert? Some of the comments that poured in after the "Laporte Incident" were pretty horrible. If I was on the receiving end of that, I'd think I'd be feeling like a mob was after my head. Also, don't you think that his point about people feeling more comfortable to "talk hate" using their own/real names is a good one?
- Andrew Terry

I don't understand why Mike is wasting time and effort on those death threat comments from the idiots that posted them. Why is he giving them any real credit? They should be dismissed. They should be ignored. They're the grown up versions of youtube commenters.
- Lise

The thread with Aaron last week demonstrates that the FF community is reasonable and self-correcting. FF also provides fine grained controls so that you DON'T see what you don't want. Mobs are simply human nature. Dissapointingly so. Mike may as well call for the abolition of Town Halls, Community Clubs and the like.
- Roberto Bonini

As long as Mob leaders like Laporte keep it together no trolls get hurt.
- Garin Kilpatrick

I have a feeling Arrington is developing a relationship with FF analogous to Dvorak's with Apple. ie. piss off the faithful (get traffic), blog about the nasty community members attacking you (more traffic), eventually reverse yourself and please the community (more traffic again). Lather-rinse-repeat.
- Michael R. Bernstein

If Mike doesn't like mobs he should open a private room here on friendfeed.
- Robert Scoble

I feel the same way about this argument that I do about people who complain about television. Stop whining. If you don't like what's on, change the channel or turn the TV off. FF, like any online community, is based on elective participation. If you don't like what's happening, move on to something else. Also, people take what's written in these forums WAY too seriously. If you can't take the occasional insult, get off the web and go find something else to do with your time.
- Kevin (aka ThreadKilla)

And last i checked, Leo is NOT a mob leader. Or a Troll leader.
- Roberto Bonini

Andrew: mobs have always formed online. FriendFeed does allow them to form faster but Arrington should go read Digg and YouTube comments for a while. The stuff I have seen here is pretty easy going compared to those.
- Robert Scoble

Go to a forum with lots of members and ask a noobish question and watch the mob flame you into the middle of next week.
- Mark

Michael: bing! Arrington is the best at whiping up crowds. Anyone remember when he called France lazy?
- Robert Scoble

Andrew: I think everyone here generally agrees with Mike that those types of comments are out of line. Can't blame Mike for feeling touchy about them.
- Roberto Bonini

Danny that's the irony in all this. Arrington is the King of The Trolls! Leo called him the biggest troll "in the world" a few times.
- Mark

I used to read techcrunch and even comment once in a while. Mike Arrington has been consistently losing credibility with me these past few months, and now has forfeited the last bit. I was going to comment over there, but it really has ceased to be worth my time. I'm even sorry I clicked over to his article. Interesting that I wouldn't even have known for it if not for this post on...which service is this again, oh yes, ...friendfeed.
- Jim #teamFFrank

It seems to me that Mike wants the attention or he wouldn't have post this. He just doesn't like it if it doesn't go his way. He sort of like the guy who finds a bees nest and pokes a stick in it. They finally calm down and they poke it again and are surprised by the results
- Kim Landwehr

a) learn to use Block b) like twitter is sooo much better :/ c) waste of a read.. I thought Techcrunch did actual stories on stuff, not rants. Guess I was wrong.
- Tim Hoeck

Well, the worst thing we as the FF community could do is prove him right by "attacking" back and name-calling for what he's said. Fanning the flames justifies his opinion. Hey, if it makes people wonder what going on with this "FriendFeed" thing and they come check it and realize it's not at all like what he was saying...all the better. So, let him have his opinion and spotlight.
- That's So CAJ!

@Robert: IMO, Arrington is doing the same thing he always does: setting himself up for some abuse from others. it's so sad to watch. in this case, he'll likely get what we is asking for, too. *again*
- MikeAmundsen

IMO, He's wrong. And, as mentioned, tossing gasoline on the fire by pretending to be outraged by such supposed mobs while deliberately inciting them.
- Bob Morris (polizeros)

@arrington just wrote that I should propose tools to slow down the mob. Yes, we have those in Iran and China. I would rather have the mob.
- Robert Scoble

I think Arrington just wants to destroy a medium that he can't control.
- Nathan Cooprider

I really thing that this was more about online mobs with FriendFeed as an example rather than specifically about FriendFeed. Yes he uses FriendFeed as the example, but I don't think the points he makes are related solely to FriendFeed. You could easily replace FriendFeed with Digg or Huffingtonpost. Some place where people gather in mass and you can easily see a mob mentality grow.
- Michael Koby

Of course he is right. When the wrong people come together than everything can happen. Same is true if good people. Even a revolution (specially Wednesday). People on FF and similar services have lots of power. Can be used to change the world!
- bishoph

Yes Chris, he is a sly old dog isn't he? Tickets might be going too slow or something
- Mark

The association with Syphilis is kind of weird. I think any public figure gets hate mail, electronically or otherwise.
- Ace

@Michael Koby, I'd agree with you (to a certain extent), if the article wasn't...specifically about FriendFeed. And about an event that occurred to Arrington personally, no less. I'd have a lot more respect for his argument if he'd spend the time to find more examples. This just looks like someone who's had a flamewar turn on him that's fighting back with his own bullhorn.
- Ken Kennedy

Bishoph: or a mob can break glass and burn buildings and hurt people. What do you want to use your mob for?
- Robert Scoble

He probably just read a book on syphilis. When I read a book on something I like to make links to the topic to make me appear well-read and smart.
- Mark

He (as usual) has some valid points. FF is a great conversation tool but when it becomes a chat room, it's not up to the task. Just as in public, I tend to avoid these mobs here on FF. 58 comments on this right now is fine but 1000 is useless. I know you don't agree, but IRC is much more useful for that.
- John Rubier

It would help if Mike actually understood how he could shape his FriendFeed experience. There are such things as blocking and hiding. It also seems like those who can dish it out but not take it run screaming from FriendFeed - which invites *real* interaction and conversation. Yeah, it's sometimes unruly, but that's reality folks! If you want the *dated* version of arm's length, yell...
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- AJ Kohn

I can't make it to Arrington's event on July 10th (I live in Boston..and the event is in SF), but I hope it gets a lot of coverage online so that the rest of us can learn from what is shared :)
- Sam Houston

Look what services like Twitter and FF did for Iran. Just a medium to share and discuss (real time) information. Of course the used words in the blog are misleading and obviously rant (a troll post to start a discussion in real time :-).
- bishoph

(Robert Scoble) -- "this is all about Arrington setting his conference up well. I will be a part of it from London. " -- next time, put this at the beginning of your post, Robert. I'm NOT interested in being a part of this childish crap. If you have actually have a problem with the post, you shouldn't either. If this thread is to help TC drum up word-of-mouth about a conference, that's...
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- Ken Kennedy

Could argue that MobFeed was more useful because it had private rooms and things.
- Mark

@AJ: Arrington knows how to use FF. this thread is evidence of that. his willingness to pimp himself out - to invite this kind of negative talk - just to promote his own interests is what is so disappointing.
- MikeAmundsen

Lazily, i'll c&p my post from TC..Yeah, this is Arrington taking a personal incident and trying REALLY hard to universalize it. And the syphilis analogy only makes this look needier and less applicable. FriendFeed aggregates conversations and connects sub-streams of the cloud more efficiently than any other current service. Once you try it, you like it. I works. It's efficient. The...
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- Thom Kennon

@Mike: Perhaps he understands that he can drum up talk, but I don't think he's been here enough to actually understand it's true power. So, yes, Arrington essentially is a FriendFeed spammer or Social Media Lout.
- AJ Kohn

Ken: it isn't my strategy and I am not profiting from it.
- Robert Scoble

"Mobs" have collapsed police states, authoritarian regimes, and given rise to countries like are's that even allow us to have this conversation today. To suppress them is like revoking the right to assemble and petition, removing the peoples voice, and is not a sign of a free and open society. Turn on the news and remember 99% of the world haven't a clue who Mike Arrington is.
- Shaun Hess

@Robert: do you think Arrington is using you to promote is own agenda?
- MikeAmundsen

Mr. Arrington is just too young. This online behavior will not subside soon. AOL Chatrooms, Usenet discussions, Compuserve bulletin boards, listserv flame wars.... The more things change, the more they stay the same. 15 years of Law and Order and broadcasting reruns on other Channels. For a Technology News guy it's pretty pathetic. What's the news? Where is the new idea?
- Birgit Pauli-Haack

Mike: he is using our mob behaviors, yes. Do I feel used? No more so than when Aaron and Steven did the same thing.
- Robert Scoble

I think there are many factors working here: 1)rapidly changing community norms 2) expansion of these services from small homogeneous groups who create them 3)poor communications skills 4)poor social skills 5) a lack of inhibition due to the virtual environment.
- Francine Hardaway
from BuddyFeed

If there was ever any doubt that Arrington seeds the controversies that surround him, let this post put that doubt to rest. His goal is to incite passions because he knows that anger drives engagement more than agreement does. He's merely the Ann Coulter of the nerd world -- nothing more, nothing less.
- Sprague D

Mike knows that we cannot help ourselves, we simply must talk about his post and send him lots of hits and maybe sell a ticket or two for him.
- Mark

@Robert: your response is far too similar to what you used AGAINST Tim O'Reilly and other members of the SUL, IMO. If you know/suspect that Arrington is using this to promote a conference that you're going to attend; a conference focused on a technology realm that you make your living off of...then of course this helps you, just like being on the SUL helps Tim O'Reilly, even if he's "not changing what he says based on it". You didn't find that answer from Tim satifying, and I feel the same way about yours.
- Ken Kennedy

It is difficult to take Michael Arrington seriously as a tech analyst -- he's inflated his self-created brouhaha into a mentally disorganized blast at Friendfeed. A very emotional guy. Friendfeed is a self-organizing platform. One shouldn't complain about getting mired down in nasty exchanges that are easily avoided with unsubscriptions and blocks. Arrington's mess was self-inflicted.
- Sean McBride

Chris: I am an unpaid speaker at the TechCrunch Real Time event.
- Robert Scoble

As a matter of fact, I think Twitter is much more suited to mob creation than FriendFeed.
- Miguel Caetano

I work on my mob behavior. I engage, but try to be civil, helpful, or educational:-) this is a learned behavior after I got my butt handed to me a few times.
- Francine Hardaway
from BuddyFeed

Yes Matthew, alot of people (myself included) read a book on something and feel we must reference it to make us appear smart. I did the same thing with a book on the black death. its all nonsense of course
- Mark

@Sean: from my POV, not only was Arrington's mess self-inflicted, it was a purposeful act on his part. as is this one.
- MikeAmundsen

Miguel: yeah, over on Twitter I saw hundreds of people saying Jeff Goldbloom was dead when he wasn't.
- Robert Scoble

arrington: @Scobleizer perhaps someday when you are sitting in your house with a police car parked out front to protect you you'll think differently.
- Mark

C'mon Robert...do you seriously not grok the similarities between this argument and your complaint about O'Reilly/SUL? This is free publicity for a conference that you're speaking at that will help make your name more notable in your area of expertise.
- Ken Kennedy

I need to read up a little more on the other parties involved. The only person I follow of this group with any real regularity is Leo LaPorte. However, from a listeners point of view, Leo grossly over-reacted to a legitimate question ( and I love Leo's work ). Would Larry King shut down the show just because he was asked something he was apparently sensitive about? ( I realize this...
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- Sean E Brown

Must have been a serious thread if the police give you personal protection
- Mark

No robert, what I pasted was Arringtons reply to you on twitter
- Mark

Arrington is just ticked off at the response he was getting after he attacked Leo .. yeah I really think he attacked him personally. Attacking a man's credibility and integrity is a personal attack in my opinion. Then he removed the techcrunch feed from friendfeed ..so what let him .. I agree with the other commenters..He is an attention whore plain and simple then compares Friendfeed...
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- John Blanton
from twhirl

I really think Arrington has a skewed view of FriendFeed. Most of the venom against him on FriendFeed has happened during Gillmor Gang podcasts, which were most recently running on Leo Laporte's TWiT network. For whatever reason, a large percentage of Leo's TWiT fan base hates Arrington. Not just disagree. Hate. They've also said pretty awful things about Steve Gillmor, Dave Winer, etc....
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- Mike Doeff

Notice how Mike is totally absent on this thread. He should be here defending his article, defending his analogy to syphilis and letting us all know how dumb we are for not seeing things is way. Mike obiously sees no point to having this discussion. I count 2 tweets from him on this subject.
- Roberto Bonini

@Mike Doeff If he did see the civility of FriendFeed he wouldn't have compared it to syphilis.
- John Blanton

Please note, Robert...I don't think you're being all devious or anything. I'm just pointing this out to give you another angle on the O'Reilly thing. I actually think Tim probably thought "WTF" as well. And while I DO think that both of you are being a teeny bit naive thinking that the attention doesn't affect what you say or do...that's the case with pretty much all attention. I don't...
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- Ken Kennedy

Ken: Arrington is on the Suggested User List and he did not disclose that. Jason Calacanis says that is worth $250,000. I guarantee you that speaking at a conference won't get you $250,000 worth of followers.
- Robert Scoble

Anybody remember Usenet newsgroups? They still exist, and lots o' tech people still use them (i still answer questions there). There have been some remarkable flame wars there, and they are all threaded. I don't see how different that is from FF except FF has a prettier interface.
- RobinDotNet

Robert: Thank you ;) Don't get me wrong. We also need people like that. They make for interesting discussions.
- Peter Kruit

Hah! Arrington removed my comment about him not disclosing that he is on Twitter's Suggested User list.
- Robert Scoble

Lets give 1 sec to the Arrington point at his last tweets ,cant we have some kind of control on the stream ?cant FF add better moderation tools ?
- Johni Fisher

Robert: You're stirring the pot yourself and why? Because Arrington comapred FF to Syphilis? I have nothing against a discussion about the issue at hand but you're lead-in to this was a bit on the point of the article.. It's just a session of Arrignton bashing, replace the keyboards with pitchforks and you're all on your was the TC headquarters to string up the guy.
- Sean E Brown

Sean: the thing is I have seen mob suppression and I don't like it one bit.
- Robert Scoble

And I have had my car damaged and life threatened by a mob after the 49ers won the Super Bowl one year.
- Robert Scoble

@Robert: gotcha. I think I understand where you're coming from. I disagree, but it's no big deal.
- Ken Kennedy

Robert: but who is suppressing it? An article isn't going to to stop mobs, not all mobs are good mobs (lol). I suppose we all have our quirks that get us up in arms, I am in no way innocent of that.
- Sean E Brown

@Johni Fisher: FriendFeed is a social network, not a community or a forum with administrators and the like. But I reckon that nested conversations could be useful ;-)
- Miguel Caetano

This inspired me to listen to the Mob Rules album by Black Sabbath :D
- Per

It's interesting to me that the very thing Arrington talks about happens here. Where did good taste and treating other people with respect get off the track? I mean seriously...have you looked at how many people are on this thread making nasty comments about Arrington? He isn't the only one that gets that treatment, we all do if we state our opinions publicly. Now, I'm not against...
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- Sheryl

Sheryl: yes, this is bloodsport. Same thing happens at baseball stadiums every day.
- Robert Scoble

Sheryl: The nasty talk against Arrington is earned. Arrington frequently slams FriendFeed (which get under Robert Scoble's skin and compels him to do these sorts of posts, but that's another topic) and then cries whenever (a) no one pays him any attention or (b) people talk nasty about him.
- Steven Perez

Robert: I can't take things that seriously. Life is to be lived not destroyed. Why don't we talk about the value of the mob? Why don't we talk about how amazing social networks can be?
- Sheryl

Steven: I disagree with you :) That Arrington has an opinion and states it no more gives you or I a right to tear his person apart than my simply waking up every day. Argue against his opinion but name calling has no benefits.
- Sheryl

Sheryl: You're entitled to your viewpoint, but I've been here long enough to see how Arrington operates. And nothing I've seen from him lately has changed that opinion. He deserves every bit of scorn he gets, because he delights in these sort of poop fights.
- Steven Perez

Here are some features that might slow down mob-like participation: 1) move the comment link to after the last comment, rather than right under the item, to encourage reading the previous comments before commenting. 2) once a threshold has been reached, remove the comment link entirely, so you have to go to the item page (which displays all comments) before commenting, to discourage formation of instant pile-ons from within the live stream.
- Michael R. Bernstein

Steven: You don't have to change your opinion of Arrington. At no time have I suggested you aren't entitled to your opinion. But what benefit for you is there in calling him names? We all have opinions others disagree with. You didn't call me names and yet for all you know I'm a horrible person (I'm not) I think the world is better for opinions and different thoughts. It stretches us to...
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- Sheryl

Mike comparing FF to syphilis is pure, shameless analogy abuse. But say what you will about Mike, his arguments are interesting, and I do read them. And if anyone on this thread wants to organize a torch and pitchfork mob against him, let me be the first to say I've got a billion more interesting and important things to occupy my time.
- James Hernandez

Sheryl: I said it Zee's thread and I'll say it here - it's another Arrington poop fight. He throws enough of it on the wall to see what sticks, gets Robert Scoble riled up, and a mess of blog posts and forum fights ensue. SOP for Arrington. Meanwhile, he reaps the benefits of notoriety and links back to his site, all without ever setting foot in here, because we're all going over there to see what he wrote.
- Steven Perez

Steven: I would only ask this, who is inciting who if Arrington squawks and people fluff their feathers? I don't know Mike Arrington, I know who he is and I have read enough to know he frequently says things that are inflammatory, but I don't call him names publicly. Where is the value in that? Can someone show me why that is useful because if you can, I may change my tune, though it's highly unlikely! ;-)
- Sheryl

Ken: only if you search for it will it matter for long.
- Robert Scoble

Sheryl -- what kind of response do you think Arrington anticipated when he compared Friendfeed to syphillis -- *at length* (in case we missed the point)? Describing him as a jackass strikes me as a measured and rational response. But he is best ignored, to be sure.
- Sean McBride

Sheryl: there's a small bit of problem with your logic. By your logic, everything that Ann Coulter (thanks, Sprague D) says is not deserving of scorn, either.
- Steven Perez

Steven I don't say it's wrong to be scornful. I do still think it's wrong to call names. It feels wrong to me to validate that in any way. Defending position is a whole other thing. To enter the fray and retaliate has no good consequence.
- Sheryl

Sean: I don't think it matters what Arrington's goal was. In the end, even if Arrington calls FF names, to do so in return accomplishes what?
- Sheryl

Sheryl -- sometimes it is healthy to call out a jackass as a jackass, and then move on to more productive topics. It puts a period on the nonsense. In general I agree with you: the more civil the conversation, the better.
- Sean McBride

This whole thing reminds me of the "How to tell someone they sounded racist video" http://www.youtube.com/watch... I think we can all learn something from that video. Keep to the subject, instead of calling names and generalizing from what a person did. If you want a good discussion on this subject don't call people names. Instead of wasting time in here where M.A says he...
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- Rasmus Lauridsen

Because, at the end of the day, Arrington is against mob mentality ... unless he can direct the mob's direction.
- Steven Perez

The real problem with herd mentality is that once understood, it can be effectively deployed to link bait, generate PR in the form of online discussions, and to promote social media sites and/or events, without people even being aware of it.
- Mark Davidson

I'm particularly baffled - better yet - amused by how the media gurus quickly turn into poor, weeping poopflinging angry things once they find themselves prodded by the pointy end of a mass of people (which they then call "a mob" elegantly skipping the "lynch" part). Groupthink - yes, sometimes - even herd mentality - but this has all to do with how people are, and nothing with technology, so I really don't get the hate on FF (Syphilis? gimme a f-in' break!).
- dario

also: the guy is obviously oblivious of the Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory and has no clue about what goes on in "the mainstream", say on Reddit, /. or that cesspool that are youtube comments. FF is pretty much a small, happy place with tea, pastries and fancy embroidered cushions compared to those.
- dario

Thom: Arrington did the same thing to me. Welcome to the mob.
- Robert Scoble

Ken Camp - I agree completely with your post - this whole thread went from a discussion on Mobfeed and into something similar to a 1990 BBS rant
- Kathleen Forden

This is really getting to be ridiculous. Arrington admits that people can be nasty at Twitter and other places, but says FriendFeed is worse, basically because all comments can be seen in one place. Blame FF? Why don't we start with blaming TechCrunch, because a lot of people started out disliking him due to what he writes there. I suspect that if Arrington didn't delete so much of what was posted there, we'd see a REAL mob.
- MiniMage

Dario: If Arrington's blog post heightened your emotional state, then his mission was accomplished. If you clicked the link to Arrington's blog, then his mission was accomplished. If you commented on Arrington's blog, then his mission was accomplished. If Robert Scoble started a thread on FriendFeed about Arrington's blog post, then his mission was accomplished. If we are still...
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- Mark Davidson

Mark: that was my point, actually (sorry it didn't come through too well) - basically if you go prodding a hive with a stick sometimes you get stung - it doesn't reflect too well on you if you get all uppity afterwards. So, I agree with you 100% on the manipulative part.
- dario

The same thing happens on Digg, and it's been around for years. It's not a problem with the service(s), it's a cultural problem. We've all been desensitized to some level or another, some extremely.
- Blake

Dario: Don't feel bad. I got caught up in it too. It's human behavior. As human beings, we respond to stimuli. When executed properly, we just can't help ourselves. Our emotions get stirred, we take action in the form of a response, we become engaged because we've invested emotional energy, we talk amongst ourselves, etc. Politicians, public speakers, bloggers, television and radio...
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- Mark Davidson

Matthew, I just expanded my opinion on Mike's post (linked by Scoble). I think it's calculated drama. Either that or really, really silly. I'm giving everyone the benefit of doubt here and assigning more intelligence than the latter opinion would allow.
- Jason Nunnelley

Why would anyone take anything that Arrington writes seriously after his complete bullshit stories about Last.fm - which had real, economic consequences for the company, and which are still being repeated as if they were true by people around the web? He's perfectly happy to whip up the mob when it suits him, but when it bites him back he suddenly becomes Mr Socially Concerned.
- Ian Betteridge

How many times was Arrington's name mentioned in this post, thus reinforcing his brand through repetition? How many people reading his name were in an emotionally heightened state? Hmmm. lol.
- Mark Davidson

When someone comes into your house and poops on your coffee table, it's a bit difficult to look at it rationally and ask what the merits of such an act was.
- Steven Perez

He actually removed my comment. No kidding. I didn't wish him ill, suggest he should died or anything of that nature. I just made a coherent and short comment about his tactic with as bland a set of language as possible. Wimp.
- Jason Nunnelley

THIS is why i fucking hate FF. "Read his anti-FriendFeed rant here" WHERE? damn it, friend feed always makes a monkey out of me. where's arrington's rant? i dunno. i'll seach for arrington's account and see if i can find it. i'll prolly be back in five minutes to say "oh, i'm so stupid... i found it at [INSERT FUCKING URL HERE]" thanks for exposing my FF ineptitude, Scoble.
- Mark Hartwell

Mark: it's the first comment on this thread. It's a link. Then come back here to read the 200 comments.
- Robert Scoble

Mark: I've used this device hundreds of times. Most people figure it out pretty quickly.
- Robert Scoble

Comment removal is standard practice at TechCrunch, and it really doesn't matter if the comments are polite. He'll leave a few counter-comments in (enough so it's not obvious he's blocking counter-opinions) and delete the rest. Perhaps his lack of control of the conversation is why he doesn't like FriendFeed much.
- Ian Betteridge

All I said was that he should thank Scoble for the link, but he shouldn't be surprised if these tactics result in trollish drama queens following his work only to bring a teen girl styled smack down to his next slumber party. It wasn't even that caustic, definitely not "mob" language.
- Jason Nunnelley

Matthew: he's probably deleting all comments he perceives as being from the "MobFeed." I think it's funny. Mike once told me he's an entertainer, and this is evidence of that.
- Robert Scoble

aha http://www.techcrunch.com/2009... got it ... second comment actually. i agree with jason calicanis ... you need a freaking masters degree to work friend feed. thanks, Robert, BTW .. the url gets shortened, so even though the title of the article is in that URL, one doesn't see it when scanning the comments.
- Mark Hartwell

Mark: no, it's the first comment. The first line are people who clicked "like" on this item.
- Robert Scoble

The problem, though, is that Arrington is an "entertainer" with the power to seriously hurt companies and careers in the web industry. And he does it, too.
- Ian Betteridge

So, he deletes my comment about participating in adult conversation and leaves the guy's comment that calls him a douche? Mature. I'm starting to withdraw my prior benefit of doubt.
- Jason Nunnelley

Ian: he only can hurt you if you let him. If your marketing campaign relies on TechCrunch then your marketing campaign is bad and needs a major rethink. I've had Valleywag and Techcrunch aimed at me before and it never hurts.
- Robert Scoble

To be totally fair, i dont think it is that bad. We have had quite a few articles on Techcrunch and on on a whole they seem to be a nice bunch, very accomodating and understanding.
- Paul Rawlings

I thought it was quite a funny read, I don't think I can take it seriously... it is almost as if someone spat in his face or something.
- Paul Kinlan

Robert, he can't hurt me - but think of Last.fm, whose reputation was hurt and which lost subscribers because of a completely false series of articles that Arrington posted. And he's never really acknowledged that he got it totally wrong, preferring to hint that "there's no smoke without fire". That's what I mean about serious damage. He has the power of mainstream media, without the vaguest notion of a conscience.
- Ian Betteridge

FF interface: simple? perhaps. Intuitive? not so much. The FF fail is strong in me. (and scoble was right, the url IS in the first comment) what looked to me like the first comment was just a list of "likes" that's a Digg concept, right?
- Mark Hartwell

Ian: if Last.fm has value it will cruise right through a wrongful attack. I'm not saying it's right, or pleasant.
- Robert Scoble

Yeah, Last.fm will survive - think of the man-hours it took dealing with the mess that Arrington created. A lot of time and effort went into cleaning up a mess that Arrington gleefully made. And again, no acknowledgement from him that he was in the wrong.
- Ian Betteridge

Matthew: stay nice. It's not that easy sometimes for newbies.
- Robert Scoble

I just read this entire post. I'm so sorry I wasted my time. Maybe we should ban the use of cell phones and IM just in case. Like FriendFeed, they also make it too easy to talk to people.
- Rahsheen

on such a beautiful sunday, how on earth could anybody be paying attention to arrington's opinion - he is a self serving dolt...
- mike "glemak" dunn

ok, i've read arrington's post. and most of this thread. the syphilis analogy was probably just something that mike has been wanting to paste and share since he read that book. the laporte / arrington "war" lasted all of 10 minutes. what that exchange DID expose was a lot of pent up anti-arrington hate. why do so many people think arrington is an asshole? simple, he IS an asshole. if i...
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- Mark Hartwell

ok Robert If you are going to remove mike's comment couldn't you at least remove my reply to him also? Now it stands out like a sore thumb of dumbness in a sea of irrelevance. :-P
- Rasmus Lauridsen

Glad to know you know me so well @Zudfunck, So I'm a "spoiled intellectual" from California... Not a 29 year old college dropout living in Randers, Denmark? Wow you know me so well almost better than I know myself. Thanks for the generalization, it totally helped my mood :-P
- Rasmus Lauridsen

What an odd post - I like Arrington, but it's posts like this that make him come off as a bully. The mob boss?
- Jesse Stay

I think Mike is paranoid one of those startups he loves to put in the deadpool want HIM in the deadpool :p
- Mark

A salad? You see this is the Kevin Rose effect. All the young kids up and coming in tech are all skinny, and they rock climb, and drink fashionable teas from around the world. No more fat techies with these guys in charge. Crap.
- Mark

@mark dammit I need to work out then, thanks for not sending me that memo before now! :-P
- Rasmus Lauridsen

Mike Arrington's is not on the global radar, so his rant is useless. There are major social media shifts in developing countries, violent regime crack-downs, and tech developments leading human dignity campaigns.
- E-Advocate Network

Yawn, change a few words and it could be used by any class with power, religious, political. IE. Admin blog power, Green Dam, RIAA, Tehran, Bush. Read/Write culture is showing tremendous growth. There is no one person, power, group or nation that can change any of it. Call it Mob call it anything you want, but for 99.99999999999% of the population. His rant is a YAWN. It will change nothing and have no effect not now or ever. There is nothing to fear here move on.
- Robert Higgins

The biggest problem with Mike Arrington and MG Siegler's arguments is they only seeing this problem because of their position. I've said some pretty fierce, opinionated things on FriendFeed, Twitter, and elsewhere, but I'm not fearing for my life. Nor would I in the near future. Even though we're not anonymous on FriendFeed or Twitter, it doesn't matter for most because we're anonymous enough to where enough people are going to care enough to do something to us.
- Jared Mehle

+1 SpragueD, the difference being Ann Coulter has a pair of *cojones.* she wouldn't need months of seclusion and grief counseling after someone spat on her.
- Karim

Karim: I am no longer speaking at any TechCrunch event, according to an email I just received. Just so we can clear that part up of the conversation above.
- Robert Scoble

Stephen: I don't know. I guess he feels I turned the mob against him. Or something I did over on his blog bugged him (he deleted a comment where I wondered whether his attacks on FriendFeed were driven by his inclusion on the Twitter Suggested User List, which delivered to him $250,000 of value and that he never discloses when he talks about social networking). Funny if it's that because it's pretty much the same thing that he did to Leo Laporte that pissed off Leo so much.
- Robert Scoble

Yeah, I was just thinking that's what Leo should have shot back with, and I was just thinking the same thing about the SUL and how dramatically that's a bigger deal to affect their coverage of Twitter than Leo's getting a pre for a week. I'll try to start being just positive like you suggested earlier, but it makes me wonder if TechCrunch got as many @replies attacking them as Mike...
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- Stephen Pickering

I thought friendfeed was the "coolest app nobody uses"... now we're the mob ;) guess we're moving up in the world guys.
- Frankie Warren

lol Matthew -- no, the "Burn Notice" intro goes like this: http://www.hulu.com/watch... My name is Robert Scoble. I used to be a social media expert. Until... [VOICE ON PHONE: "Arrington put out a burn notice on you. You're blacklisted."]
- Karim

If this has already been posted, I apologize, but the bad side of a mob can be seen here: http://hashtags.org/tag... When a twitter / ff user says he's going to commit suicide and a bunch of people encourage him to do so.... Not a good example of the "mob."
- Ben Hanten

Ben: so, a bunch of Twitter users flash a stupid hashtag, it shows up here on FF as being ported from Twitter (http://friendfeed.com/search... - note the point of origin and how many users here actually used that tag), and somehow that's the mob that Arrington is talking about?
- Steven Perez

I agree with Mike too, except for the syphilis comparison (could have used a better analogy).. Emotions + Real-Time communication with the rest of the world can blow matters out of proportions very quickly, and especially so when not everyone reads all 286++ comments..
- Winston Teo

Winston: the problem I have with is with the equating "social media" with "FriendFeed", Seriously, this place is worse than, say, 4chan? Or Digg? Or Stormfront? Really?
- Steven Perez

Because Arrington didn't note this as a general problem. He specifically targeted FriendFeed over some of the worst social media sites out there. For that reason alone, his article is laughable.
- Steven Perez

@steven Yup, I would say it's not only about FF. But his "theory" makes sense in a general way, IMO.
- Winston Teo

Well, welcome to 1997, Winston. Because "mob mentality" has manifested itself since comic book nerds were flaming each other on USENET over whether Hal Jordan or Kyle Rainer was the better Green Lantern. If general assholery was the issue, then not only did Arrington's point hit wildly off the mark, it didn't even land on the same planet. I've been here for a year, and while people do...
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- Steven Perez

Not enough page hits, or not enough fans to drown out the dissenting voices. Arrington et al can hide in their imaginary utopian internet hangouts (as if they exist) and shut out everyone who dares to suggest they're wrong, but they need to stop attacking FriendFeed. It's not the cesspool they pretend it is.
- MiniMage

My take is that Arrington doesn't like FF because he can't control what goes on here or what is said about him here. He can't delete the comments on threads (unless they are his own), like he can on his own web site.
- Jeff P. Henderson

@Clark heck, "threads" on Twitter are so disorganized that you can barely call them that. *grin* (I realize some of the desktop apps make them easier to review, but still.)
- Ken Kennedy

Mr. Arrington has a good point there: aggregating opinions and discussion indeed create online mob. We just saw it in many real examples.
- darwin|1q84

I concur, darwin|1q84, especially when no one moment can be the whole truth. Mobs form quickly and often without the *whole* story. real-time, while useful in many contexts as Louis pointed out, can lead to a quick-time mob mentality that gets out of control fast. Great discussion. Brings up a lot of things.
- thinfilms

Surprise surprise, Arrington deleted my comment on his thread. As I said above, he really doesn't like it if people disagree with him in "his own territory", does he?
- Ian Betteridge

I'm not sure where Mike Arrington was back in the late 90's, but I was smack dab in the middle of a vibrant CNN online community where discussions happened in real time with real names and yeah, there were mobs around certain issues. Anything to do with the Middle East, or Bill Clinton was guaranteed to be a 24/7 shift for the elves who scrubbed the spam and the flames. This isn't new. It's been around since the cave man days. It's only a question of how it's manifest.
- Karoli

LOL of my comments over there he removed the one where I argued against Sean MacDhai for calling Michael a Douche. Guess he just wants to continue being the victim. I actually liked MA's stuff and enjoyed the turds he threw out sometimes. But deleting comments supporting him so he can just look more like a victim is low... Guess I'm gone from there.. His comment moderation makes it impossible to carry on a conversation, self serving as it is...
- Rasmus Lauridsen

Having stepped back and thought about it, I think that there's a serious point struggling to get out of Arrington's post. He's choosing to blame tools like FriendFeed for people being vitriolic, but real-time tools - like any tool - don't make people do anything. People *choose* to be vitriolic: it's part of their make up, their culture, their approach to life. The problem that I have...
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- Ian Betteridge

The fact that Mike is deleting comments that don't suit his needs and banned Robert S from Tech crunch events tends to prove my suspicion, and this is about control. He doesn't control the Ff conversation and that's what bothers him.
- Kim Landwehr
from BuddyFeed

It strikes me that Friendfeed tends to fuel invective out of partisanship or loyalty because threads like this one and the TWIT episode thread attract groupies. The bile comes from what the spewers must see as the most noble of motives -- sticking up for their Friend.
- Amyloo

the best analogy for friendfeed he could come up with was syphilis? Yeah that's not link bait. I'm sure the guys at friendfeed are just thrilled with Mike today.
- timepilot

I think Mike got used to shouting fire in a theater and he is now upset that the theater goers are organized and calling him on it. give me a break
- timepilot

Discussion of these questions is welcome with the understanding that the dialogue is invigorating.
- Mike Chelen

Kevin: the praise for twitter is that it is less effective for communication, friendfeed should be thankful for the nice compliment ;)
- Mike Chelen

Andrew Terry: the post actually is much more insightful if taken to apply more generally, however it does single out friendfeed as somehow qualitatively worse than blogs or twitter :D
- Mike Chelen

It is rather silly that FF's supposed Achilles heel is that it's too effective at bringing crowds together. Mike's unspoken counterpoint benefit to Twitter is that megaphone-style broadcasting is still possible without too much interruption from the public.
- Daniel J. Pritchett

I prefer twitter because individuals are individuals on twitter and there is nothing meaningful to say in thirty seconds in a flame war or a thread with 322 replies
- Michele Costabile

We could certainly use some threading options in the comments UI, maybe even some upvoting and other dynamic resorting. These big threads tend to buckle under their own weight.
- Daniel J. Pritchett
from IM

Daniel, I like time sequencing on big threads. I'd like to see simpler respond identifiers so when someone says "Jason," I know which of us billion or so Jasons he's talking to. I much prefer this to seeing comments floating around based on up and down votes.
- Jason Nunnelley

Sorry @Michael_techie that's a fail. I think its time to move on and think about more positive stuff. It's 22 hours since @scobleizer started this thread, its like years in realtime web. Seas have already flowed under the proverbial bridge on this one.
- Rasmus Lauridsen

Yes, you won't see threads like this any more. Scoble wants more positive threads and is trying to make up with Mike Arrington who has denounced their friendship after several years.
- Mark

@Matthew hey we should pile up this conversation in separate room
- Michael_techie

Twice this month I got invited to do something (e.g., be on a panel, or be one of several interviewees for a project) and both times I asked to see the whole list of people I'd be associated with if I said Yes. In both cases, my first reaction was "why all white males?" In both cases the person was taken aback, totally not realizing this was the case. The second response was "I want...
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- Bora Zivkovic

We've been having these issues for years. Every year someone screws up and gets called out. Every year. I wonder when we'll have a year when we have a diverse panel of experts on stage at all conferences?
- Robert Scoble

And I've reported on documentation of this in many professions, not just new media and high tech. Getting women on the program appears to be amazingly difficult...nearly as bad as when Harriet Beecher Stowe went to England on her book tour for Uncle's Tom Cabin and her husband had to give her speech for her while she sat in the balcony, looking properly demure and wife-like. Sheesh.
- dontgetcaught

Jay: the thesis is that if white males are the only ones ever on stage that we'll only discuss, and build, things that serve white males or have white males on them. I have to say that in this day and age to have only white males on stage means you've failed as a conference organizer.
- Robert Scoble

Bora your response brings back when I was working YearlyKos the first year. I gave them a list of speakers of various stripes. Noted that most of the people they asked were white guys. Someone else mentioned it, and the chairperson gave the same reasons you got above. What pissed me off was the "who are the political female/bloggers of color?" after I gave her list of 500 people. Sigh.
- Anika

I agree that politically, that is a FAIL. But sorry, Robert. Intellectually, I cannot take seriously the idea that "white-male-dominated conversations produce white-male-dominated media models." I think it's a piece of shit. Embarrassing to everyone, frankly.
- Jay Rosen

Jay: I didn't say that the thesis is correct or that I agree with it, but there is something to having representation. We didn't like taxation without representation, and I've gotta say that it's a bit wacky at minimum not to have speaker panels reflect the larger population. The fact that so many conference organizers only invite white males to speak is evidence of a lack of representation and it is wrong, not just politically, either.
- Robert Scoble

The idea that tech is the domain of white males (and young, white males may I add) reeks of outdated and ignorant presumptions.
- Jack&Cleo

Turn it around. Imagine you attend tons of conferences and in the audience are tons of white males but on stage there are only females. Wouldn't that make you angry? Wouldn't it make you wonder why white males can't get on stage?
- Robert Scoble

Jack: we're not even talking about tech here. We're talking about journalism conferences.
- Robert Scoble

Having different sex-ratios at conferences completely changes the tone. I tried mightily to make sure my conference is as close to 50:50 as possible, both on stage and in the audience and I explained in great detail how and why here: http://scienceblogs.com/clock...
- Bora Zivkovic

Jay: they have an agenda on that site, sure, but here's the key sentence: "We ask you to stand with us instead, to create a sustainable new journalism that includes and supports all of us, including women and people of color." Includes is the key word.
- Robert Scoble

Right. Because I have stood for excluding people from the journalism system my whole career! I know, I know, it's not about me. But "white-male-dominated conversations produce white-male-dominated media models" is about me.
- Jay Rosen

Jay, it's clear you vehemently disagree with the idea that "white-male-dominated conversations produce white-male-dominated media models," but you haven't really explained *why* you disagree. are you taking it as a personal affront?
- Karim

Jay: well, if you are defending a conference that has only men on stage, that's what you're doing. Or explain to me why you are defending putting a panel of all men on stage?
- Robert Scoble

Maybe I am not understanding your argument, but you really are coming across as exclusionary here Jay.
- Robert Scoble

Maybe when we have a diverse set of genuine experts, we'll get a diverse set of faces on stage. The list of "candidates" shown on that website all seem to be pretty focused on the "women" issue, rather than the "business model", "innovation" or "community" issues, which to me are pretty color and sex-blind issues.
- Jack Jones

No, I think a conference that only had white men on stage would be a problem. I think a conference that only had captains of industry on stage would be a problem, but no less so than a conference that only had white men. I think a conference that only had developers on stage would be a problem. But no less so than a conference that only had white men on stage. I think a conference that only had pro journalists on stage would be a problem. But no less so than a conference that only had white men on stage.
- Jay Rosen

I haven't seen your defense of "white-male-dominated conversations produce white-male-dominated media models," yet Robert. Is that a sound notion? To me, it's a piece of shit. I haven't defended all white male conferences. I apologized for being a white male as a sarcastic way of saying that "white-male-dominated conversations produce white-male-dominated media models" is a dumb idea.
- Jay Rosen

How do I get 50:50 sex ratio for my conference? Step 1: post a call for speakers. Step 2: monitor e-mail for an hour, at the end of which I have filled half the slots with men. Step 3: I spend several weeks contacting, one at a time, women who I already have built good working relationships with, discuss in depth their potential contributions, and only then they say Yes. People who have...
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- Bora Zivkovic

Step 4 explain to the any white male speakers you do wind up with that all their ideas--every single one!--will only produce a white male dominated science, media, economy, culture, polity.
- Jay Rosen

I never said that. Women will not design different software or run different blogs, or whatever. But the room full of men is unpleasant atmosphere even for me.
- Bora Zivkovic

a captain of industry, or a developer, or a professional journalist is something you become, a title you earn. whereas i gather one is born white and male. if you're hiring an employee, it's ok to restrict yourself to captains of industry, developers, or professional journalists. if you restrict yourself to white males, the EEOC wants to have a chat with you.
- Karim

YOU never said that, but THEY very definitely said that "As members of Women, Action & the Media, we know all too well that white-male-dominated conversations produce white-male-dominated media models." Is that a sound notion, Bora?
- Jay Rosen

Jay: I agree with you that the goal of diversity is good and the idea that guys can't design things/systems/models/whatever for non guys is faulty. I wouldn't try to sell diversity on those terms.
- Robert Scoble

I would like to see definitions of male-dominated media models and female-dominated media models so I can compare before I can say anything about it. But my point was that, in organizing conferences, "...when a group hasn't been at the table, sometimes it takes more than an invitation to get them there." (from...
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- Bora Zivkovic

"when a group hasn't been at the table, sometimes it takes more than an invitation to get them there.". That's really a two way street isn't it. The conference is surely losing out by not having diverse voices, but as I diverse voice, you can hardly complain at being under-represented just because you didn't feel enough of an overture was made to get you to attend - the onus is on you...
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- Jack Jones

Definitions of white-male-dominated media models? Huh? You don't get definitions of terms like that. You get just enough concept to bring the PC across. Go ahead: try to find in their statement a definition, or a link where we could learn more about what this strange notion means.
- Jay Rosen

While you're on stage everyone is out in the hallway schmoozing.
- Dave Winer

Dave: actually I am trying not to attend as many conferences. I tend to learn more at the Ritz and the mojitos are better too.
- Robert Scoble

Jay, i assumed that by "white-male-dominated media models," they were talking about things like Katie Couric being the first solo female anchor of the evening news on one of the three broadcast networks in the U.S. or that 42% of newsrooms had no minorities in 1998 (http://www.diverseeducation.com/artman...). or that women only made up 37.5% of newsroom employees in 2004, and minorities less than 14% (http://www.journalism.org/node...). i'm just guessing, though.
- Karim

You're not looking at the statement, Karim. You are zoning out into general points about imbalance in newsrooms. The statement says that the three people on this panel, because they are white males, will only discuss commend and imagine something PC mush minds call "white-male-dominated media models." Don't ask me to define what that phrase means. I don't think it has any specific...
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- Jay Rosen

If males are on the stage, then everyone takes picture of the males on the stage, then all those pictures show up on covers of glossy magazines, then those males are models. Those who appear on many magazine covers are super-models and the magazines that carry them are then male-dominated. Is that the sense of the word "model" in this conversation? Sounds like I am joking, but really - is it about perception? And how does that perception help making the field more diverse?
- Bora Zivkovic

Jay, no, in fact, it does not say that at all. it says, quote, "...we know all too well that white-male-dominated conversations produce white-male-dominated media models." now, they did not support that statement, but it did not strike me as ludicrous, given fairly common cognitive biases, and what little i know about how few women and minorities are in the media. clearly you think it is ludicrous -- you are foaming at the mouth -- but you haven't explained why.
- Karim

As I just wrote to a friend who informed me that it's not about me...(trust me, I know that) Fine, then just say, yes we know it's insulting to the panelists to say they are only capable of thinking up gendered media models but we need to insult them a bit for the greater good and to get the point across to conference organizers. You know, have a little intellectual honesty. Yes, we're...
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- Jay Rosen

Have you tried emailing them directly? It seems like they might have gotten the same result with less drama by sending their feedback privately before posting an accusatory-sounding open letter.
- Jim Norris

An individual male person might bring in individual ideas that will appeal to females. (Hence my first comment in this thread.) But male-dominated *conversation* will produce a male-*dominated* set of ideas. That is, if the majority of conversors are male, then the majority of ideas produced will be focused on issues that males care about, in ways that males care about.
- Deborah Fitchett

Jim - you might be interested in googling "the tone argument". Most of the top results that come up discuss it in the context of racism but the same general dynamics occur in the context of sexism too. The various ways it's a problem are too long for a FF comment but the google results were by and large pretty good last time I checked.
- Deborah Fitchett

I think where you sit does affect where you stand. I think there is truth in the notion that experience affects perspective. I also think there is a lot of truth in the general claim that diversity of inputs leads to better outputs. I further believe--and this is why I am the world's worst leftist--that the experience of being an outsider to an industry or profession, as against an...
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- Jay Rosen

Jay, my first question to you was "are you taking it as a personal affront?" -- and it sort of sounds like you are. i don't know if you're "too emotional to make an argument" in general, but you haven't done a good job of explaining that you felt *personally insulted,* as if someone called you racist or sexist. the sad fact is that people have cognitive biases and blind spots. sadder...
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- Karim

Jay, I'm sorry, but this is the kind of POV you can pretty much only get from being a white man. Over in the fiction world, Mary Anne Mohanroj wrote a piece on something a bit related: http://whatever.scalzi.com/2009... - see parts I.2 and I.3 specifically...
- Andrew C (✔)

Jay, you're right: those differences are equally important. But that doesn't mean that if you have one difference you no longer need the other. We need insiders and outsiders; *and* we need men and women; *and* we need white people and PoC; *and* we need various classes; *and* etc etc.
- Deborah Fitchett

And since I only represent two of those signifying differences (academic, outsider) I think you would agree, Deborah, that I was right to apologize for not representing the preferred ones.
- Jay Rosen

"preferred"? Come on, that's not what that site you're angry about said.
- Andrew C (✔)

Andrew, if you're going to point out what people actually said, it will interfere with Jay's sense of righteous indigation over the idea of including women. ;-)
- Karim

I have explained myself 3-4 times, Karim. Your response is to ask that I explain myself. *shrug* Look... That white-male-dominated conversations produce white-male-dominated media models is insulting to YOU, Karim, as well as me. It is an insult to Bora. It is an insult to Andrew C. It is an insult to Robert S. It is degrading to the people who wrote it, and to the people intimidated by...
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- Jay Rosen

Jay, by my count, you've explained yourself once, in that most recent comment ("I think you sit [...]") ; the other times you were mostly repeating your initial, hard-for-us-simple-folk-to-understand sentiment. And, I don't think you should be speaking for me. I mean if it were me, I would espouse a similar sentiment to the one that's got you up in arms, except I would hedge with 'usually' and 'most of the time' or things like that.
- Andrew C (✔)

i'm not insulted, Jay. i have a huge imagination. i am capable of "imaginative identification." but the sad fact is, if the alien mothership ever lands on earth and they want ONE person on their Panel of Humans to speak for human females, or white people, i am probably not the person they should pick. lol
- Karim

Also, I don't think that people /can't/ identify with others, I fully think they can. But! I also think that one cannot simply say that "oh, I was poor, so I know what it's like to be a person of color in America". They're two different things. They might be similar in being in positions of less power in society, but they're not the same.
- Andrew C (✔)

Jay, "We agree," so guess what? when the aliens say "Hey maybe we should get a woman for the Panel of Humans since females make up about half the population," i'm not going to throw a damn fit about how fucking *PC* the aliens are. lol
- Karim

Karim, is it a homogeneous alien race, or a diverse set of inter-galactic beings? :)
- Micah

Andrew, the Gets You Up to Speed post was a good read, thanks for linking it.
- Micah

:-D Micah, i'm guessing diverse... since the homogenous ones tend not to be interested in panels where various points of view are represented. the homogenous ones tend to go all Hive Mind on you, shun the different, claim that you are not of the Body and do not conform to the Will of Landru... :-D
- Karim

Jay, no, you needn't apologise for being a man. You needn't even apologise for receiving the privileges that men receive in our society without ever striving for, asking for, or noticing them. It'd be ridiculous to apologise for something you didn't *do*, and I've seen no-one ask you to. But if you wanted to apologise for mocking people attempting to increase equality - that wouldn't be ridiculous at all because it's something you did.
- Deborah Fitchett

""fight for it an you'll get it" attitude is very male - shy women are automatically excluded". I don't think I put it quite that way, but I did say you have to participate - it's not solely up to conference organizers to be especially inviting to women etc. "Shy middle-aged white men" are also at a disadvantge in public speaking, but I don't see much fuss being made there - if you want...
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- Jack Jones

In fact I'll revise that, and say that let's value everyone equally as human beings, and give everyone equal *opportunities* to achieve. But clearly, people are NOT equal. Scobble has a zillion followers on here, gets invited to aircraft carriers and to speak on panels. I do not. Why? Because either I don't have as much of interest to say, or simply that I don't say it. It's totally right that conferences would call Scobble, and not me.
- Jack Jones

Jack, you failed to quote the second half of Bora's statement. Shy women, just like shy men, are excluded, sure. But he also pointed out that aggressive women are punished for being bitches. Aggressive men don't have that problem (or at least have to be a *lot* more aggressive than women need to be to be censured). Men have a winning strategy available; women have a catch-22. See eg http://www.apa.org/monitor...
- Deborah Fitchett

Well... As some one who programs an event (EmTech, held on MIT's campus every year in September: http://beta.technologyreview.com/emtech...) I can tell you that we think the most important criteria for a speaker should be that they are articulate, expert, and highly intelligent. Those criteria being met, we strive for diversity, broadly defined - but we don't think that diversity, qua...
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- Jason Pontin

I guess we'll just have to disagree, then. I believe that diversity is intellectually stimulating no matter what the topic at hand is.
- Victor Ganata

People have diverse definitions of diversity. Some see the stimulant you mention as related to variety of inputs, as well as the purpose of the event. If we can't look at what we are trying to accomplish event by event, and adjust the variables that need to be worried about in the diversity equation, then we are not serious about diversity. That's one view. Others are more narrow and...
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- Jay Rosen

some people would look at a picture of the panelists (http://i40.tinypic.com/29w7876...) and say there's no diversity there. "why," they might say, "the first two people could even be twins -- same jacket, same haircut, same eyeglasses, same lopsided, shit-eating smirk." but i say no! just because they *look* like frakking clones, doesn't mean there's no *cognitive* diversity. one of them probably says "to-MAY-to" and the other probably says "to-MAH-to."
- Karim

then once i've convinced everyone about how wonderfully diverse the panel is, the existing imbalances will be perpetuated, and women will continue to underrepresented in journalism.
- Karim

you quitting the panel, Jay? or does Angry White Male deign to share the stage with a woman? ;-)
- Karim

Thank you for asking. MediaBistro says they have been in fruitful contact with people from The Center for New Words and they consider it a positive outcome that will strength future programming. I will be speaking on the panel as advertised, and they will be adding speaker(s) of their choosing. From my end the matter is closed with no change in the status quo. My views are my views. Cheers.
- Jay Rosen

glad you reconsidered your words yesterday (quote "Which is why I will probably be off this panel tomorrow") and Angry White Male is apparently a little less Angry today. :-D
- Karim

i would love to see this image travel through the media.
- MikeAmundsen

I saw the previous images of this scene and was trying to figure out if he WAS helping or not.
- Kreg Steppe

Police in Iran charged at protesters using their motorbikes, in a bid to break up a street rally. One policeman crashed his bike during the charge and was helped to safety by protesters. An Italian journalist caught the incident on his mobile phone. Video courtesy of Corriere della Sera TV @ http://news.bbc.co.uk/2...
- Chris Zlatis

Now this is an amazing photograph, serving as a great reminder that humanity is capable at once of both terrible and great things. I hope it is one of assistance, much as that very moving video above showed.
- Nick Wade

the video is great, too. shows that, even at crazy times, there are good-hearted people acting to protect anyone in need. i wonder how often this has been happening over the last few days.
- MikeAmundsen

None of this reporting -- None of it -- would be possible without online tools. Robert -- there's the 2010 Web! I seem to remember your earlier question (a few months ago) about the definition of journalism. This is it. It's not up to the "paid journalists" at the NY Times or Chicago Tribune anymore. It's up to you, me, people like @jamesbuck, and the person who took this photo and put it online.
- Curt Mercadante

I'm not really surprised, Iranians are a lot more empowered than people in the West think. It is *not* Saudi Arabia!
- Iphigenie

Thanks for getting this out. It's so easy to get lost in tweeting about our silly mundane lives that we forget how important images like this can result in making people aware and helping to make a difference in the world.
- mrsha

Curt, right, after listening to Scoble on a panel about the future of Journalism, and he was the only one "journalizing" it via Kyte, I wrote a post that the future of Journalism is a video camera or in this case a camera. I remember that it was the camera and video camera that stopped Vietnam for instance
- Stephen Pickering

And, putting aside for a bit whether or not CNN ignored the story -- we're now getting news that NBC's Tehran office may have been raided and the BBC has been told to "get lost." Under oppressive, censoring regimes like we have in Iran, North Korea and China -- citizen journalists empowered by new communications tools will be the ONLY way we get accurate news from these regions.
- Curt Mercadante

If anyone ever doubted the revolutionary, real-time impact of Social Media, this photo easily dispels those misconceptions....
- John Fenzel

Amir: you have a fan for life. I hope you do win the Pulitzer Prize. I think you got the iconic photo of the election protests. This one should hang in Newseum's Pulitzer Gallery. Can you tell us how you shot it, and give us more details about what was going on in your head as you pressed the shutter button? To everyone else, don't you love friendfeed?
- Robert Scoble

Amir: when I took photojournalism at San Jose State University one quote stuck in my mind from all those classes over the years "If your pictures aren't good enough, you're not close enough." That quote was from Robert Capa, here's an article in Time Magazine about it: http://www.time.com/time... You have gotten close enough. Congrats, I can't even imagine trying to get this close. I hope all comes out well for your country and you.
- Robert Scoble

"The doomed Airbus A-330-200 was flying ever so close to its maximum altitude – in a zone pilots call the “Coffin Corner”. It refers to the edge of so-called “flight envelope” of an aircraft. At this altitude, the air is much thinner and that significantly narrows the swath of speed at which the airplane can safely operate. They will stop flying (stall) at a much higher speed (true airspeed) than they would on approach to an airport at sea level. At the other end of the safe speed spectrum is the sound barrier. The wings on an airliner like the A-330 are not designed to break the speed of sound. So you see the squeeze play as a plane flies toward the Coffin Corner: the margin between the between the high and low speed limits gets thinner and thinner (along with the air). Matter of fact, given its estimated weight, altitude and the outside air temperature (which also affects air density), AF 447 was flying through the eye of a speed needle only about 25 knots (28 mph) wide."
- Paul Buchheit
from Bookmarklet

such a puzzle. the thing is, the A330 flight computer should "know" when the aircraft is approaching the "Coffin Corner." it is designed to keep the plane from getting into trouble. though it looks like the last ACARS messages from the plane are basically the flight computers saying they are confused, could a human please drive now (autopilot off, autothrottle off, switch to Alternate Law).
- Karim

Just terrible. I can't stop thinking about the people on that doomed flight. God rest their souls.
- Mitch Nauffts

the "Coffin Corner" on a 747: http://digital-nomad.com/gallery... airspeed on the left, altitude on the right. the red/purple bricks starting at 288 knots airspeed & going up indicate the beginning of Mach Critical, where the airflow gets disrupted because the plane is moving too fast. the yellow line starting at 258 kts & going down is the stall speed, where the...
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- Karim

or rather the computer has to keep the airspeed between the two points. :-) if there's a small buffet margin of a few knots (difference between the Mach buffet speed and the stall buffet speed), the greater the chances that a manuever will get the plane into trouble. turning the plane can reduce the airspeed (thus causing it to stall), or pitching the nose down can increase the airspeed (thus causing a "Mach tuck" and pointing the nose down even more...)
- Karim

Karim, are you sure that photo is from a 747? Mach .86 at that altitude is 500kts, not 275. That's 275m/s, not knots, which makes the "coffin corner" 60kts, not 30.
- Gabe

Gabe, i was assuming the speed was CAS. (does an EFIS display meters/sec.?) the calculator here http://www.newbyte.co.il/calc... shows that, for an altitude of 38,000 ft., temp. of -38 C, and speed of Mach .86, that results in a Calibrated Air Speed (CAS) of 275.
- Karim

UAFlt 175 , an alleged 767, according to the video evidence, appeared to travel over 500 mph @ 700 ft., and was not dive-bombing. According to Boeing, that couldn't be. I'd like opinion of pilots on this photo http://www.thewebfairy.com/ the background is a still from a video allegedly taken from Battery Park by M. Hezarkhani, and promoted in various media.
- Marg Uerite

i am so relieved to find a thread full of savvy and tech interested pilots.
- Marg Uerite

Marg, at 700ft the speed of sound is 764mph, so a plane going Mach .86 could be going 660mph. Of course few jets have the thrust to sustain flight at that height and speed for very long, but you could dive from altitude to build up a speed of over 660mph (your wings probably wouldn't fall off until over 700mph) and go for quite a ways at level flight before drag slowed you down to 500mph.
- Gabe

I was not aware that a 767 was able to break the sound barrier. Thank you for your answer that is very helpful. The "plane" in the vids appear to come in level, from at least a mile out. Part of the problem is that different vids show different trajectories. One vid *does show a dive, but does not match the others. http://killtown.911review.org/2nd-hit...
- Marg Uerite

No, I never said a 767 could break the sound barrier. It can dive at 91% of the speed of sound, which near sea level is pretty fast. Once it comes out of that dive, it would cover a mile in maybe 10 seconds.
- Gabe

Possibly doomed to failure. It looks like a newspaper; seems organized like a newspaper. When will print people understand - the electronic medium is intolerant of navigational tricks smuggled from print?
- Jason Pontin

Someone needs to tell professional journalists than "paying people real salaries" is not a business model but a cost item.
- Jay Rosen

True, that. Also, don't we have a whole bunch of these sites, with established loyal, readerships and vigorous communities?
- Jason Pontin

I hereby dub this "Dave's Suggested Users List" - should we create a script that follows everyone on this list for you? :)
- Jesse Stay

BTW I just got off the phone with Erik Shurman and we had a great time talking about this
- Jesse Stay

So, what immediately strikes me about this is: the employees of Twitter hardly read the early adopters and power users of Twitter. Jason Calacanis has 6 followers; Chris Anderson of Wired has merely 5. Walt Mossberg has 4; David Pogue has 3. I didn't see you, Dave, at all. And they don't follow much in the way of journalism: the Economist has only a few readers. Whom do they follow?...
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- Jason Pontin

"While many reporters are positively using Twitter to spread news and talk to readers, some still need lessons on how to effectively use the site. Young reporters have an advantage because they already know how to use social media and they are using it to help them in their reporting. Although older reporters are beginning to embrace social media, they may not be familiar with all the benefits of using it in the professional world and need to trained in the potential uses social media sites provide."
- Scott Rosenberg