deepbluehum wrote:They are using the word kundalini, but it is a different concept altogether. In Vajrayana, there is really no kundalini. It's not about motivation really. In Hinduism the kundalini is a living force that acts of its own. In Vajrayana, practitioner uses visualization to generate the fire element. Nothing acts of its own. Here the fire element and bijas are being utilized as tools, particularly to dissolve red and white bindus into the heart center in a death rehearsal of sorts, the endgame is to gain an intuitive understanding of how birth occurs so that it can be stopped. In Dzogchen, the situation changes again, because method is a kind of sem zin. As you know Togal is the big deal of Dzogchen, and methods are all auxiliary ways to get into trekcho, which you need to have a successful togal. In Kundalini yoga the job is finished when the kundalini works its way up to the sahasrara chakra, because at that time, one can enter sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi. Again this happens of its own. Now I've revealed all I plan to. Much more can be said. How this makes the two realizations different is that Buddhist realization is completely beyond Samadhi.

Well, I understand perfectly what your POV is, however you are acting like those teachers and myself were all conflating tummo practice with kundalini which is not the case. I thought that was clear. What you describe above "In Vajrayana" is tummo practice. However, the quotes I put forth make it clear that they are making a distinction between the two, and still acknowledging kundalini as a force that is worked with consciously. I understand the path of kundalini yoga as it is taught traditionally outside of Buddhism. Rudi's work is more or less the same, in that the emphasis is surrender, to allow the force to work on you.. however, there is a lot of effort building up to that point. Though maybe there is quite a difference between what you are referring to and what my training in Rudi's work was, because in Rudi's work the ascent to the crown chakra was not the end.. it then descended back down through the chakras and again up the back, continually refining the system and more deeply digesting the energy.. very similar to the microcosmic orbit of taoist yogas. Nirvikalpa samadhi was not the goal, but endless unfolding growth and expanding realization without limit. So it is a bit different than the conceptual framework of traditional kundalini yoga. Nityananda did not discuss conceptual frameworks much. Clearly, Muktananda and Rudi taught vastly differently and didn't see eye to eye. However, it is clear to me that Rudi was working with the same energy, and energy pathways.. but in a different way. This opens up the point that there is different ways to work with this energy other than the orthodox kundalini yoga that you keep saying is the only way to work with kundalini. These are energies of our incarnated bodies, ultimately inseparable from our minds. Therefore, Vajrayana would not ignore them, but understand them and work with them.. but in a different way than the hindu approach. Yes, the view of Vajrayana does not solidify anything as real ultimately, it is beyond such eternalist mistakes, but it still recognizes relative reality and works with it consciously-- which is what is happening in tsa-lung of course. In the ultimate view there are no limitations.. Milarepa can fit inside a yak horn, no problem. But not until he has fully arrived at that realization beyond all concepts. Until then, we are still working with relative functionality, including working with the channels and winds, etc. Of course the relative methods are different, as is the view, path result.. that is not disputed by anyone. But your replies make it sound like you are claiming these are separate self-existing energies that are peculiar to each tradition.

That all said, back to Vajrayana: I don't believe the teachers above are just confused or misinformed, not understanding what the term means or what they are talking about. That is what you allude to in your above reply. That is rather condescending towards Lama Yeshe and Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche, neither of which were lightweights or easily confused! I am not at liberty to discuss the details of private interviews I have had with my own lamas, but I find your statements contradictory to what I have learned from them. Maybe we are talking past each other. I do agree that there is a big separation in the traditions regarding the training and ability to consciously control these energy movements, vs. the emphasis in kundalini traditions to let the energy do what it will. This is a Buddhist concern about those traditions: that the winds will get stirred up, and then be out of our control..potentially causing damage to the subtle centers that can last beyond this lifetime even. This relates directly to CTR's quote I posted where he says: It seems to be quite dangerous, this process of working with energy, like chandali practice. You're playing with energy. If you don't work properly with the guna principle, then there's the possibility of distorting all the nadi systems into imperfection.

He says "like chandali practice" meaning tummo, but earlier he says in the visualization of the chandali and in kundalini practice differentiating them as different practices. Clearly, they don't have the same function.. in tummo the whole body is heated to the point of not needing clothes in freezing temperatures.... kundalini yogis do not develop this capacity.

I do agree with the dangers of kundalini practice as it is generally taught. I know of people that have gone crazy doing it. One of my Lamas has helped people that have really screwed up their channels doing it. I have been to a talk with a famous kundalini yogi who outright emphasized how many mental institutions in India were filled with people who were kundalini yoga casualties.

I know people who teach this stuff and have great capacity to wield shakti and they are not very evolved as human beings on even a mundane level. So I clearly see the issues with these methods.

However, I would hesitate to decide that we Buddhists don't engage in anything beyond conscious control. The entire enterprise of Guru devotion, and Guru Yoga, cultivating deep faith.. this is a form of developing this deep sense of surrender.. this is absolutely essential for tsa lung practice including tummo. Success in tummo is not some mechanical enterprise. It is predicated on devotion and supplication prayers. This activity brings us into a state of surrender. Only then can we begin to work with these energies.. In the same way that a Hindu yogi may concentrate on different chakra points, so do we, but we do with specific visualizations, and with refuge, bodhicitta, and right view. The goal is not the same, the method is not the same, but there is quite a bit of overlap even when comparing these things... the differences are actually more subtle than you present. There is not any reason to discuss this anymore, I agree. If I felt kundalini yoga was the right approach I wouldn't be here. But it is not as cut and dry as you present. There is always a great deal happening in our practice tradition that is beyond the scope of the discursive mind. Thankfully. The one thing I could say though is that we have a much more refined technique that is presented and safeguarded by living Buddhas.. ideally it won't land us in the insane asylums, ---though that also happens to Vajrayana Buddhists as well!

Contentment is the ultimate wealth;Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

greentara wrote:Xabir, "Kundalini Awakening finally results in the awakening to the cosmic/infinite consciousness that is then equated with the 'true self' or 'atman-brahman', the goal of Hinduism. This is NOT the same as Buddhist enlightenment" Ramana had an experience of the rising of the Kundalini but didn't talk much about it, not considering it the ultimate. When devotees came to him and told of their own experiences he listened with interest but told people to 'press on'Interesting that you split enlightenment. Enlightenment is a rare and extraordinary happening. Can't be defined, explained or pigeon holed!I wonder if you can say that Milarepa's enlightenment was more enlightened then Rumi's or different to Ramana Maharshis? How could you quantify it? It's laughable!

What they realize that is different. Hindu realization is on the luminous mind but reified as an Atman-Brahman. Buddhism is about realizing emptiness, that absence of real existence or self, i.e. anatman., and the inseparability of this emptiness/lack of real existence and luminosity. It is very different.

deepbluehum wrote:They are using the word kundalini, but it is a different concept altogether. In Vajrayana, there is really no kundalini. It's not about motivation really. In Hinduism the kundalini is a living force that acts of its own. In Vajrayana, practitioner uses visualization to generate the fire element. Nothing acts of its own. Here the fire element and bijas are being utilized as tools, particularly to dissolve red and white bindus into the heart center in a death rehearsal of sorts, the endgame is to gain an intuitive understanding of how birth occurs so that it can be stopped. In Dzogchen, the situation changes again, because method is a kind of sem zin. As you know Togal is the big deal of Dzogchen, and methods are all auxiliary ways to get into trekcho, which you need to have a successful togal. In Kundalini yoga the job is finished when the kundalini works its way up to the sahasrara chakra, because at that time, one can enter sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi. Again this happens of its own. Now I've revealed all I plan to. Much more can be said. How this makes the two realizations different is that Buddhist realization is completely beyond Samadhi.

Well, I understand perfectly what your POV is, however you are acting like those teachers and myself were all conflating tummo practice with kundalini which is not the case. I thought that was clear. What you describe above "In Vajrayana" is tummo practice. However, the quotes I put forth make it clear that they are making a distinction between the two, and still acknowledging kundalini as a force that is worked with consciously. I understand the path of kundalini yoga as it is taught traditionally outside of Buddhism. Rudi's work is more or less the same, in that the emphasis is surrender, to allow the force to work on you.. however, there is a lot of effort building up to that point. Though maybe there is quite a difference between what you are referring to and what my training in Rudi's work was, because in Rudi's work the ascent to the crown chakra was not the end.. it then descended back down through the chakras and again up the back, continually refining the system and more deeply digesting the energy.. very similar to the microcosmic orbit of taoist yogas. Nirvikalpa samadhi was not the goal, but endless unfolding growth and expanding realization without limit. So it is a bit different than the conceptual framework of traditional kundalini yoga. Nityananda did not discuss conceptual frameworks much. Clearly, Muktananda and Rudi taught vastly differently and didn't see eye to eye. However, it is clear to me that Rudi was working with the same energy, and energy pathways.. but in a different way. This opens up the point that there is different ways to work with this energy other than the orthodox kundalini yoga that you keep saying is the only way to work with kundalini. These are energies of our incarnated bodies, ultimately inseparable from our minds. Therefore, Vajrayana would not ignore them, but understand them and work with them.. but in a different way than the hindu approach. Yes, the view of Vajrayana does not solidify anything as real ultimately, it is beyond such eternalist mistakes, but it still recognizes relative reality and works with it consciously-- which is what is happening in tsa-lung of course. In the ultimate view there are no limitations.. Milarepa can fit inside a yak horn, no problem. But not until he has fully arrived at that realization beyond all concepts. Until then, we are still working with relative functionality, including working with the channels and winds, etc. Of course the relative methods are different, as is the view, path result.. that is not disputed by anyone. But your replies make it sound like you are claiming these are separate self-existing energies that are peculiar to each tradition.

That all said, back to Vajrayana: I don't believe the teachers above are just confused or misinformed, not understanding what the term means or what they are talking about. That is what you allude to in your above reply. That is rather condescending towards Lama Yeshe and Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche, neither of which were lightweights or easily confused! I am not at liberty to discuss the details of private interviews I have had with my own lamas, but I find your statements contradictory to what I have learned from them. Maybe we are talking past each other. I do agree that there is a big separation in the traditions regarding the training and ability to consciously control these energy movements, vs. the emphasis in kundalini traditions to let the energy do what it will. This is a Buddhist concern about those traditions: that the winds will get stirred up, and then be out of our control..potentially causing damage to the subtle centers that can last beyond this lifetime even. This relates directly to CTR's quote I posted where he says: It seems to be quite dangerous, this process of working with energy, like chandali practice. You're playing with energy. If you don't work properly with the guna principle, then there's the possibility of distorting all the nadi systems into imperfection.

He says "like chandali practice" meaning tummo, but earlier he says in the visualization of the chandali and in kundalini practice differentiating them as different practices. Clearly, they don't have the same function.. in tummo the whole body is heated to the point of not needing clothes in freezing temperatures.... kundalini yogis do not develop this capacity.

I do agree with the dangers of kundalini practice as it is generally taught. I know of people that have gone crazy doing it. One of my Lamas has helped people that have really screwed up their channels doing it. I have been to a talk with a famous kundalini yogi who outright emphasized how many mental institutions in India were filled with people who were kundalini yoga casualties.

I know people who teach this stuff and have great capacity to wield shakti and they are not very evolved as human beings on even a mundane level. So I clearly see the issues with these methods.

However, I would hesitate to decide that we Buddhists don't engage in anything beyond conscious control. The entire enterprise of Guru devotion, and Guru Yoga, cultivating deep faith.. this is a form of developing this deep sense of surrender.. this is absolutely essential for tsa lung practice including tummo. Success in tummo is not some mechanical enterprise. It is predicated on devotion and supplication prayers. This activity brings us into a state of surrender. Only then can we begin to work with these energies.. In the same way that a Hindu yogi may concentrate on different chakra points, so do we, but we do with specific visualizations, and with refuge, bodhicitta, and right view. The goal is not the same, the method is not the same, but there is quite a bit of overlap even when comparing these things... the differences are actually more subtle than you present. There is not any reason to discuss this anymore, I agree. If I felt kundalini yoga was the right approach I wouldn't be here. But it is not as cut and dry as you present. There is always a great deal happening in our practice tradition that is beyond the scope of the discursive mind. Thankfully. The one thing I could say though is that we have a much more refined technique that is presented and safeguarded by living Buddhas.. ideally it won't land us in the insane asylums, ---though that also happens to Vajrayana Buddhists as well!

I know Rudi's method, but I don't accept it, because it's not what the tradition teaches. I don't follow teachers who make up their own.

I'm not saying those vajrayana teachers are confused. I'm saying they are simplifying for pedagogic reasons, using the word kundalini because that is a familiar term. The notion of the five elements in Vajrayana and the correlations with the five wisdoms, prana, nadi and bindu etc is a more complex idea. Perhaps at that time they didn't want to go there. The problem with quoting teachers, is that the talk was time, place, audience specific and not universally applicable. One needs to get into the heart of the teachings rather than rely on superficies.

Guru yoga is not about a deep sense of surrender. You are importing from another tradition. Guru yoga is about knowledge. The things beginners are told to convince them to practice are not the same thing as the main point of the practice. What I'm saying is very standard. It would only contradict what you might think, not what's really being taught.

xabir, "What they realize that is different. Hindu realization is on the luminous mind but reified as an Atman-Brahman. Buddhism is about realizing emptiness, that absence of real existence or self" The liberated sage does not see the world different from himself. So whether you see reality as empty or a plenum depends on your fixed views. Who is there that can make muddy waters clear? But if allowed to remain still it will gradually become clear of itself.

In lower systems of secret mantra approach, the entrance of motile energy [prana] and mind from the rasana and lalana channels into the central channel initiates an experience of timeless awareness that is blissful, lucid and nonconceptual. Although this awareness is held to be innate, the process in itself does not undermine the basis of all ordinary experience and the eight avenues of consciousness. The sensation of bliss is the non-conceptual basis of all ordinary experience (within which the coordinating mental faculty and the afflictive aspect of consciousness [6th & 7th consciousness] have not differentiated). The slight degree of simple pristine lucidity that is experienced is consciousness as the basis of all ordinary experience. The manifestation of visual forms, sounds, and so forth-- the five obvious kinds of sense objects -- to their respective sense faculties and consciousnesses constitutes the five sense consciousnesses. If all the foregoing are not undermined, one is not free of samsara, because one is not yet free of samsaric mind. This method of practice is no different from the process described in a source of the Samkhya school:

Impulse, density, and lightnessMerge in equal measure at the core of the three chakras,And so there is a lucid nonconceptual state.Primal matter and soul become one nature;Herein lies ultimate reality,Truly reflected in the fundamental structure of he body.The movement of motile energy subsides within the central channel;The experience is one of lucidity, nonreferential and unwavering.This is the so-called "soul," suchness as a state of freedom.It cannot be destroyed or overcome, but is eternal.

Such methods do not bring about freedom, only a particular state of meditative stability, a state of mind that brings about rebirth in the realm of formlessness. According to these lower tantric systems, the joy arising from the channels, subtle energies, and bindu "blending as one taste" is what is meant by the experience of genuine being. It is held that the motile energies and essences enter the central channel from the rasana and lalana channels and so release blockages in the central channel, with the release of each blockage leading to the experience of a corresponding quality of enlightenment. But such methods give rise to many impediments and perceptions based on confusion, because the motile energies associated with the six classes of beings enter the corresponding radiating channels [chakras]. The keypoint, then, is that there are numerous situations in which one might go astray.

In the approach of the vajra heart essence, the subtle energies settle into a natural state of quiescence, and so need not be made to enter the central channel. When the subtle energies in the individual radiating channels [chakras] have naturally become pure, the subtle energy of timeless awareness in the channels of light is inherently lucid and in its natural state. One perceives the pure visions of timeless awareness, consisting of enlightened forms [deities], light, pure realms, and so forth, rather than manifestations of confusion. It is posited that there is "freedom" once the power of the channel of light within the central channel has increased, gradually causing blockages in the latter channel to dissolve into light [are seen as empty forms]. The qualities of enlightenment associated with the spiritual levels are experienced as awareness's own manifestations.

With the first two blockages in the channel being freed into light, One experiences some 1200 Pure Buddha realms within a field of light that is perceived externally . One is able to send forth rays of light to these rounds and "reach" them by embracing them as awareness's own manifestations [viewed nondually]. If one moves one's body, 100 pure realms quake and becomes vivid. Inwardly one can, for example, enter and come out of 100 non-conceptual states of meditative absorption in which one experiences the true nature of phenomena. For these reasons, this approach is remarkably superior to the lower ones. In fact, these other approaches seem to have a serious limitation, for if one practices with samsaric mind, the result will still be samsaric mind, because of the ineluctable connection between cause and result.

In the highest approach, the key point is as follows: While on the path, one is free of samsaric mind, and so one swiftly attains the fruition in one's immediate circumstances. Nowadays, those who assert that Buddhahood comes from ordinary mind misunderstand this key point; theirs is not a valid description of the path, for there is a substantial discrepancy between timeless awareness and ordinary mind.

The counter to this, from the Kagyu lineage, is that the problems related to the channels, winds, and drops, can be overcome through the instructions of the lineage, such that, ordinary thought is seen directly as non-arising dharmata, as appearance, and as Mahamudra itself, which is not the same as taking ordinary conceptual thought as meditation. Rather, one must first have the non-conceptual experience of clarity and emptiness of an appearance of a bija in the central channel in the heart chakra while in perfect nonmeditation. Only when one has had such an experience, is one able to provide non-conceptually spontaneous activities from the three doors to benefit all sentient beings.

From this, one should be able to see clearly the difference between kundalini yoga and what Buddhist practitioners deem yoga to mean. Thus, it is not sufficient for prana to travel up the central channel and performing an action described as destroying the imprints of rebirth and when reaching the crown chakra providing a non-conceptual clarity experience that is taken to be Brahman. In Buddhism, enlightenment is caused by seeing the non-arising nature of phenomena by learning to do nothing, spontaneous appearance, which is empty and seen nondually, meaning causes no affect, until finally one goes completely beyond perception or non perception to complete nonfabrication, nonprojection.

I just want to say, that the most of the new age community is not free from the veils either... As apparent in this thread, and most of the internet, youtube.. people who think yoga will give you this profound awakening.. etc.

I for one have heard people talk of a kundalini awakening when in reality they know not what they are talking about. Too many people trying to limit this great experience to few. Or to a particular experience. Or that it can be achieved with the mind alone.

Someone mentioned on here it is the power of the Holy Spirit. And that is precisely what it is. A person FEELS the awakening and it only happens when they are reunited with their twin flame or the other half of their soul. When LOVE and LIGHT and united when the two halves have chosen to reunite.

All else is just a bunch of new age mumbo jumbo.

IF you want to know if you are truly carrying 'kundalini' energy, you will be a fully functional Christ being or well on your way. Chirst said, I Am the Alpha and the Omega.

So frustrating when people have no idea what they are talking about. So glorious the kingdom of heaven that is given only to those who are worthy. No matter how much they boast.. it will not happen to them unless they have LOVE Divine

athenegoddess wrote:I just want to say, that the most of the new age community is not free from the veils either... As apparent in this thread, and most of the internet, youtube.. people who think yoga will give you this profound awakening.. etc.

I for one have heard people talk of a kundalini awakening when in reality they know not what they are talking about. Too many people trying to limit this great experience to few. Or to a particular experience. Or that it can be achieved with the mind alone.

Someone mentioned on here it is the power of the Holy Spirit. And that is precisely what it is. A person FEELS the awakening and it only happens when they are reunited with their twin flame or the other half of their soul. When LOVE and LIGHT and united when the two halves have chosen to reunite.

All else is just a bunch of new age mumbo jumbo.

IF you want to know if you are truly carrying 'kundalini' energy, you will be a fully functional Christ being or well on your way. Chirst said, I Am the Alpha and the Omega.

So frustrating when people have no idea what they are talking about. So glorious the kingdom of heaven that is given only to those who are worthy. No matter how much they boast.. it will not happen to them unless they have LOVE Divine

Namaste.

And the relevance of any of this to Mahayana or Vajrayana Buddhism is what exactly ?

Not to stir up a hornets nest but I think that deepblue is a little bit misguided as far as the difference between kundalini and bhudist awakenings. For one thing I have already experienced kundalini awakening with the fire running up my spine and down again. Buddhist awakening seems to be different. I don't believe it's fire but it's complete and utter.... Silence... Silence in your thoughts, silence in the ego etc and just being about... Being. but I do know that when I saw a video of Siddartha's final words to mara which was something along the lines of "Oh lord of my ego you do not exist. you are illusion. as earth is my witness", I shook violently. Now I've experienced these kinds of energetic transmissions before but those words... that empowerment is what buddhist awakening is or I believe it is I could be wrong.

athenegoddess wrote:So frustrating when people have no idea what they are talking about. So glorious the kingdom of heaven that is given only to those who are worthy. No matter how much they boast.. it will not happen to them unless they have LOVE Divine

Namaste.

I for sure have no idea what I am talking about and certainly not about Kundalini. Since I look to posts through my glasses and so even completely other words are written, all words are written in same space, and so this:

"...those who are experts at discursive thoughtsWill have no taste of it.Absolute truth, arisen from itself,Is realized through faith alone.So it is said." Shechen Gyaltsap.(I must say the Western meaning of faith is not meant here, more faith without direction through bit clarity.)

And also:

"Simply let experience take place very freely, so that your open heart is suffused with the tenderness of true compassion." Tsoknyi Rinpoche. (emptiness-compassion)

This is a rather big area to discuss, but I will try to put it simply.

In this existence, there is Yin and Yang, precisely speaking, conscious and unconscious. Unconscious is energy, energy is tendency, tendency is habit, habit is karma. The only way to break karma or tendency is through a conscious mind. That is why meditation (the practice of consciousness) will eventually lead to the dissolution of the "self", which is accumulation of ideas, an unconscious energy, evolving through countless lifetimes.

There are many kinds of meditation, involving different kinds of focal objects. The highest state of a meditation is samadhi, where the meditator becomes the object. If the object is a flower, the meditator will understand the totality of a flower. If the object is the meditator itself, then your so called "buddhist awakening" will happen, and this will eventually lead to the dissolution of the "self", which is nirvana, the total and pure unconscious state where nothing exist, like a dreamless sleep. The only difference is there will be no "you" waking up.

Now lets look at kundalini. Kundalini is the unconscious energy. The arousing of it could happen before or after the "buddhist awakening". As the meditation goes deeper, and you eventually reach samadhi, all the karma, memories, tendency will unfold and show themselves in the samadhi state. Through vipassana practice (a form of meditation), you learn to separate yourself from these mental objects or ideas, and eventually they will vanish as you know that they are just the baggage you are carrying. So you slowly drop them. Therefore, your identity is slowly peeled away. Samadhi hastens the process of self dissolution. However, some of these ideas can come back when you go out of samadhi. If this happens, you may want to fulfill these desires.

The buddha described 8 levels of Jhana or Dhyana, which is translated into the Chinese word (Chan). These Jhana are 8 levels of samadhi. Not everyone will need to go through all of them to reach enlightenment (the buddhist awakening, the word “enlightenment has been used by too many ppl without knowing what it really entails).

Will kundalini awakening occured during this process and what signs will a person see? It depends on the individual's karma. The buddha doesn't mention it is because it is not the most important thing here. His concern is right in this moment what choice do you have and what can you do with your concsiousness. Kundalini is an unconscious energy contaminated by karma. The most effective way to deal with it is to observe it and let it unfold by itself through vipassana, which is based on samadhi.

Adamantine wrote:I know people who teach this stuff and have great capacity to wield shakti and they are not very evolved as human beings on even a mundane level. So I clearly see the issues with these methods.

What does that mean?

Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.- Shabkar

yoga lion wrote:There are many kinds of meditation, involving different kinds of focal objects. The highest state of a meditation is samadhi, where the meditator becomes the object. If the object is a flower, the meditator will understand the totality of a flower. If the object is the meditator itself, then your so called "buddhist awakening" will happen, and this will eventually lead to the dissolution of the "self", which is nirvana, the total and pure unconscious state where nothing exist, like a dreamless sleep. The only difference is there will be no "you" waking up.

The highest form of meditation is non-meditation, abiding directly in the true nature of reality without any veils whatsoever. Merely becoming an object through mental focus is Shamatha, or Calm Abiding, which is just the foundation of higher forms of meditation.

Kundalini is not that. Whatever is unconscious can be made conscious. Unconsciousness is not an individual energy, it is simply the absence of awareness.

yoga lion wrote:The arousing of it could happen before or after the "buddhist awakening". As the meditation goes deeper, and you eventually reach samadhi, all the karma, memories, tendency will unfold and show themselves in the samadhi state. Through vipassana practice (a form of meditation), you learn to separate yourself from these mental objects or ideas, and eventually they will vanish as you know that they are just the baggage you are carrying. So you slowly drop them. Therefore, your identity is slowly peeled away. Samadhi hastens the process of self dissolution. However, some of these ideas can come back when you go out of samadhi. If this happens, you may want to fulfill these desires.

I agree with all of this.

yoga lion wrote:Kundalini is an unconscious energy contaminated by karma.

I dont know the official stance on this. My personal opinion is that this is wrong, Kundalini is not contaminated by Karma. Kundalini is a morally neutral force, neither good nor bad in itself. It can be used for good or bad, and depending on what you do with it will depend on if you generate good or bad karma, or if you just burn away karma completely.

In my experience she is the great purifier, the great destroyer of contamination itself. She clears the mirror of mind, she sweeps away the debris and blockages in our energy, and she purifies and heals our body. She also brings with her the gifts of warmth and contentment, leading to much bliss.

She sleeps due to our personal contamination. She awakens to show us the error of our ways and to open our minds and hearts to spiritual reality and universal love.

Ukigumo wrote:Are these the same or different? If there is some overlap between them, to what extent does this extend? I have heard that some Tibetan Vajrayana practices incorporate energy work (i.e. Tummo), but does this have the same goals as Kundalini Yoga? What about other, non Tibetan or non Vajrayana tradtions? Lastly, does anyone have any experience working with kundalini energy and Buddhist meditative practice?

I hope my reply adds more clarity, and not more confusion, to the fascinating collage of ideas already shared here. But in my limited experience thus far: getting sensitive to, and learning how to harness and redirect, the kundalini / sexual energy in the right way (ie circulating it through the body - up the channel in the spine, then down again through the front channel, rather than merely spilling it out of the body (which is the impulse of the animal nature) could perhaps be practiced in a way that is in accordance with Buddhist principles too. If we can transform sex from being primarily about lust, into being primarily about love, then our lay practice could benefit, since complete celibacy is neither required, nor usually possible for us.

The highest form of meditation is non-meditation, abiding directly in the true nature of reality without any veils whatsoever. Merely becoming an object through mental focus is Shamatha, or Calm Abiding, which is just the foundation of higher forms of meditation.

This is what I am saying. Depends on how you define meditation. I identify meditation with two general levels, one is the meditator becoming the objects, that is what you call shamatha. In the Yogic tradition, this is also called samadhi. The Buddhist definition is not the same as the yogic definition. I understand what you are saying. It is just hard to be put in words in a logical and thorough way.

Kundalini is not that. Whatever is unconscious can be made conscious. Unconsciousness is not an individual energy, it is simply the absence of awareness.

How can you make the "unconscious" itself "conscious". Even the Buddha has to go into the nirvana, which is the unconscious state, the dissolution of the "self", including one's awareness. How long can your consciousness hold on to itself? You still have to sleep.

I dont know the official stance on this. My personal opinion is that this is wrong, Kundalini is not contaminated by Karma. Kundalini is a morally neutral force, neither good nor bad in itself. It can be used for good or bad, and depending on what you do with it will depend on if you generate good or bad karma, or if you just burn away karma completely.

In my experience she is the great purifier, the great destroyer of contamination itself. She clears the mirror of mind, she sweeps away the debris and blockages in our energy, and she purifies and heals our body. She also brings with her the gifts of warmth and contentment, leading to much bliss.

It looks like you are seeing kundalini as a seperated identity other than your awareness. I see it as the expansion of your awareness, which is the part you are not aware of, or your subconsciousness. Unconscious and subconscious is the same thing in essence. Subconscious is the contaminated unconscious with karma (tendency). Kundalini doesn't clear the mirror of the mind. Its your awareness that is clearing your subconscious. This is the only way, no one and nothing else could do the job for you. When the subconscious (chita in Yogic term and alayas in buddhist term) becomes completely purified, the result is nirvana, the pure unconscious. There is no one who is experiencing anything in nirvana. This is to say in nirvana, there is no nirvana. Just for the sake of the intellect, I have to use some word, like your "non meditation".

Not so long ago (at beginning of November this year), I've done few Mahayna practices which took about 60-90 minutes. While doing one practice I internaly heard thunderstrucks. After finishing practices, I've felt almost instantly asleep. When I was waking up, I've seen under closed eyes golden, light serpent, going upwards. It was more like a cracking veil, I don't know exactly if it was exactly related to kundalini awakening or not, but it was really interesting experience.