Let's discuss science.

I had a fair-sized post detailing how we can talk about all things science and academic, but PSU decided to not post the thread and hitting back didn't return what I had typed. As a result I'll keep this post bare and to the point. I'm in the discussive mood, and PSU needs more levels of sciences. I do realize this is a gaming forum dedicated to a piece of plastic, but let's expand a bit into something more varied and wholesome, so here's a thread - either fated to be temporary or long-lasting -for exactly that.

Does anyone have anything they might question, discuss, or be curious of? By all means it can be pretty much anything.

I completely agree with you both that science is amazing, but I was hoping for something a bit more provoking or substantial. For instance, lately I've been pondering the the consequences of transmitting information faster than light. There was one concept from a few decades ago that discussed the possibility of using gravity to transmit data instantly. OK, how does that work? Well, if we hypothetically state that gravity affects all mass instantly (as in, if the Sun suddenly disappeared we would feel the effect immediately) and does not suffer from the bleeding effect as gravity operates under the inverse-square law, then one could build a device that registers the conversion of energy to mass (inducing the phenomena of gravity) and vice-versa of a distant machine processing this conversion. With these two device you can then operate on binary code (00110110) top transmit data (and thus information) instantly.

Firstly, we know that this cannot be done as we now understand (which near undue certainty at least) that gravitons propagate change within a gravity well, and neither mass nor energy can exceed c, which is the speed of light. Gravitons are particles, so that eliminates them affecting all mass instantaneously. Additionally, anyone with basic understanding of special relativity would know that this would allow one to construct a scenario where you can send information back in time, which to the cries of many science fiction writers and dreamers is simply impossible

I completely agree with you both that science is amazing, but I was hoping for something a bit more provoking or substantial. For instance, lately I've been pondering the the consequences of transmitting information faster than light. There was one concept from a few decades ago that discussed the possibility of using gravity to transmit data instantly. OK, how does that work? Well, if we hypothetically state that gravity affects all mass instantly (as in, if the Sun suddenly disappeared we would feel the effect immediately) and does not suffer from the bleeding effect as gravity operates under the inverse-square law, then one could build a device that registers the conversion of energy to mass (inducing the phenomena of gravity) and vice-versa of a distant machine processing this conversion. With these two device you can then operate on binary code (00110110) top transmit data (and thus information) instantly.

Firstly, we know that this cannot be done as we now understand (which near undue certainty at least) that gravitons propagate change within a gravity well, and neither mass nor energy can exceed c, which is the speed of light. Gravitons are particles, so that eliminates them affecting all mass instantaneously. Additionally, anyone with basic understanding of special relativity would know that this would allow one to construct a scenario where you can send information back in time, which to the cries of many science fiction writers and dreamers is simply impossible

I am a firm believer that no information could travel FTL. Maybe this was possible at the Big Bang for a fraction of a nanosecond, but not in the universe today. Causality would be broken and it would be chaos. Your right that in both theories of gravity (General relativity and QFT), neither allow for this. But we still have a huge amount to learn about gravity... Whether gravitons even exist? Why is it so weak?! even compared to the weak nuclear force!

Another thing i've never been able to understand (someone may be able to explain this to me)... Black holes and relativity go hand in hand. The large mass creates a gravity well and distorts space-time so much that not even photons can escape the event horizon. BUT BUT BUT... in QFT... how would gravitons (which are also massless)/ gravity field escape the event horizon?! It makes no sense to me :S

Last edited by the_jim; 07-12-2012 at 12:14.

PSN ID: clear_as_night"XBOX IS ABOUT TO BECOME THE NEXT WATER COOLER" ~NANCY TELLEM, ENTERTAINMENT AND DIGITAL MEDIA PRESIDENT OF MICROSOFT

I always wanted to know more about genetics, since I aspire to be a reputable dog breeder one day. (A dog breeder who health tests their dogs and breeds toward the breed standard, lots of dog people jargon I know)

So say I breed a black and tan german shepherd to a sable german shepherd, but a lot of the puppies end up bi color. The problem is, there were no bi color dogs in the pedigree until the father's grandfather. What? How in the world did a trait from the grandfather get in his grandson's puppies? And similar situations have happened to other reputable breeders. I want to understand it.

I always wanted to know more about genetics, since I aspire to be a reputable dog breeder one day. (A dog breeder who health tests their dogs and breeds toward the breed standard, lots of dog people jargon I know)

So say I breed a black and tan german shepherd to a sable german shepherd, but a lot of the puppies end up bi color. The problem is, there were no bi color dogs in the pedigree until the father's grandfather. What? How in the world did a trait from the grandfather get in his grandson's puppies? And similar situations have happened to other reputable breeders. I want to understand it.

Can anyone recommend a book on genetics or explain it?

It could be that the gene is recessive which means unless very specific conditions happen stronger genes show through first, like red hair is a recessive gene for humans, both parents might have black hair which is a stronger more prominent gene but both might also have the red hair gene which means the kid also has a chance of having red hair even if noone else for generations had it

It could be that the gene is recessive which means unless very specific conditions happen stronger genes show through first, like red hair is a recessive gene for humans, both parents might have black hair which is a stronger more prominent gene but both might also have the red hair gene which means the kid also has a chance of having red hair even if noone else for generations had it

Okay, I see where you are going with this.

You're saying the bi color gene may have passed down from the grandfather as recessive. I also realized it could have come from the dam and been recessive as well.

I got a lot of studying to do. I got a lot of studying to do about breeding and genetics.

Edit: But if the bi color gene is recessive in both father and mother, how did it come through to the puppies?

It could be that the gene is recessive which means unless very specific conditions happen stronger genes show through first, like red hair is a recessive gene for humans, both parents might have black hair which is a stronger more prominent gene but both might also have the red hair gene which means the kid also has a chance of having red hair even if noone else for generations had it

I'm almost certain this is why the 3rd generation ("grandson") dogs show traits of the 1st generation ("grandfather") dogs.

I've always been amazed by behaviour that's encoded in DNA or "instict" as its commonly known. How does a bird know how to fly even if its never seen another bird do it?! It doesn't need to learn it... It already knows! DNA is much more than just the instructions on how to build a life form but how it should behave... Amazing

PSN ID: clear_as_night"XBOX IS ABOUT TO BECOME THE NEXT WATER COOLER" ~NANCY TELLEM, ENTERTAINMENT AND DIGITAL MEDIA PRESIDENT OF MICROSOFT

OK, I'm going to sound like a complete and utter idiot, but now we have a thread dedicated to this area of expertise, can someone explain just exactly what the higgs boson is, in layman's terms if possible? I know the LHC is and what they're doing, trying to recreate the big bang, etc, but what is the deal with the higgs boson? Is it what they wanted? Have they recreated the big bang and, if so, how come more fuss isn't being made?

Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul.

OK, I'm going to sound like a complete and utter idiot, but now we have a thread dedicated to this area of expertise, can someone explain just exactly what the higgs boson is, in layman's terms if possible? I know the LHC is and what they're doing, trying to recreate the big bang, etc, but what is the deal with the higgs boson? Is it what they wanted? Have they recreated the big bang and, if so, how come more fuss isn't being made?

I will try and explain this for you.

Firstly, they are not trying to recreate the big bang. They are exploring some of the physics that happened at the big bang (temperatures and pressures that are far greater than the core of the sun). Smashing Hadrons (e.g. protons) together at speeds close to the speed of light produces an insane amount of energy and allows us to find the particles that the collision produces by measuring thier energies.

The Higgs boson was predicted by "The standard Model" theory of Quantum Field Theory many years ago but we weren't sure it existed until last week. A standard Model Higgs Boson is the simplest way of explaining the Higgs Field and we found it. We already knew this field existed and gives mass to some of the fundamental particles. Note that the field is more important than the Boson. The Boson is a "ripple" is the field.

The Big Deal is that it is the last missing piece of The Standard Model of particle physics. A truly brilliant theory that seems to stand up to most experiments.

The guys at the LHC actually havent announced they've found the Higgs Particle... Just a Higgs-like Boson (but only to cover thier asses while they do more collisions).

I'm no expert by all means but does that help?

PSN ID: clear_as_night"XBOX IS ABOUT TO BECOME THE NEXT WATER COOLER" ~NANCY TELLEM, ENTERTAINMENT AND DIGITAL MEDIA PRESIDENT OF MICROSOFT

OK, I'm going to sound like a complete and utter idiot, but now we have a thread dedicated to this area of expertise, can someone explain just exactly what the higgs boson is, in layman's terms if possible? I know the LHC is and what they're doing, trying to recreate the big bang, etc, but what is the deal with the higgs boson? Is it what they wanted? Have they recreated the big bang and, if so, how come more fuss isn't being made?

Originally Posted by the_jim

I will try and explain this for you.

Firstly, they are not trying to recreate the big bang. They are exploring some of the physics that happened at the big bang (temperatures and pressures that are far greater than the core of the sun). Smashing Hadrons (e.g. protons) together at speeds close to the speed of light produces an insane amount of energy and allows us to find the particles that the collision produces by measuring thier energies.

The Higgs boson was predicted by "The standard Model" theory of Quantum Field Theory many years ago but we weren't sure it existed until last week. A standard Model Higgs Boson is the simplest way of explaining the Higgs Field and we found it. We already knew this field existed and gives mass to some of the fundamental particles. Note that the field is more important than the Boson. The Boson is a "ripple" is the field.

The Big Deal is that it is the last missing piece of The Standard Model of particle physics. A truly brilliant theory that seems to stand up to most experiments.

The guys at the LHC actually havent announced they've found the Higgs Particle... Just a Higgs-like Boson (but only to cover thier asses while they do more collisions).

I'm no expert by all means but does that help?

dude, layman's terms this is not

in layman's terms. the Higgs Boson gives particles mass. as particles travel through the higgs field they gain mass. TADA!! magic not really but you can read jims post now

I don't have the time to get into any discussions at the moment, but I would like to recommend a book by Carl Sagan, because I think we would live in a more progressive and civilised world if everyone read it as part of their education.

I don't have the time to get into any discussions at the moment, but I would like to recommend a book by Carl Sagan, because I think we would live in a more progressive and civilised world if everyone read it as part of their education.

Now, forgive me if I sound like a total idiot, but would this or can this discovery lead to time travel or teleportation without having all the molecules being disintegrated?

Hey Dre,
In our current understanding of the physical universe, travelling back in time is impossible. But travelling forward is still possible in theory (through something called time dilation and length contraction).

Teleportation is also possible in theory, but you can't travel faster than light. There are also more bizarre things going on when you start to look into Quantum Entanglement.

But I will also say The Higgs Boson has no direct relation to the above. It explains why some of the other particles have mass.

PSN ID: clear_as_night"XBOX IS ABOUT TO BECOME THE NEXT WATER COOLER" ~NANCY TELLEM, ENTERTAINMENT AND DIGITAL MEDIA PRESIDENT OF MICROSOFT

Another thing i've never been able to understand (someone may be able to explain this to me)... Black holes and relativity go hand in hand. The large mass creates a gravity well and distorts space-time so much that not even photons can escape the event horizon. BUT BUT BUT... in QFT... how would gravitons (which are also massless)/ gravity field escape the event horizon?! It makes no sense to me :S

I wish I could have answered this, but I admit I didn't know. Even after attempts to look the information up I still came up empty handed. I'm getting the impression that scientists are stumped about this as well, and we won't fully understand until we observe the traits of a graviton -- assuming they exist. We do know, at least, that something akin to the graviton must exist as we know spacetime does not change in an instant, and as you said transmitting information instantly would commit causality.

The only discernible difference I can see is that a photon enters the singularity and the stratched spacetime of the black hole approaches infinite, so this is why light does not return even though it is massless. It sort of 'corkscrews' down into the gravity well and never returns out the other side. Perhaps gravitons contain special properties that allows them to bypass this infinite curvature and press beyond the event horizon? That's the only way I can think of, but I'm not a PhD in astrophysics.

Edit: Actually, while doing some light research I did stumble upon some talk about how the singularity would remain constant, even if you removed or altered the black hole's mass. I'm a bit confused by that, but it might give you some sort of answer or base to work off of. I need to look more into it to give it credence, though.

Actually, while doing some light research I did stumble upon some talk about how the singularity would remain constant, even if you removed or altered the black hole's mass. I'm a bit confused by that, but it might give you some sort of answer or base to work off of. I need to look more into it to give it credence, though.

I did quickly google this at lunchtime at work... and It appears the answer lies in "virtual gravitons". I don't know how these work but when I hear something like that I just feel scientists are thinking sh*t up Although I do remember that Black Holes emit Hawking radiation through virtual particles and therefore they lose mass and "evaporate". Just when you think you understand something, it only gets more complicated!

EDIT: It's amazing how successful GR and QFT are at explaining everything around us but they just don't meet very well in the middle. Hopefully the guys at CERN will give us more answers

Last edited by the_jim; 07-12-2012 at 21:47.

PSN ID: clear_as_night"XBOX IS ABOUT TO BECOME THE NEXT WATER COOLER" ~NANCY TELLEM, ENTERTAINMENT AND DIGITAL MEDIA PRESIDENT OF MICROSOFT

EDIT: It's amazing how successful GR and QFT are at explaining everything around us but they just don't meet very well in the middle. Hopefully the guys at CERN will give us more answers

don't you just love Einstein? always throwing a spanner in the works

it was my understanding that our understanding on gravitons was less than that of the higgs?

i certainly know a fair bit about the higgs but damn near nothing on gravitons o.O other then its omission from the standard model

given how little is known about black holes though it would be best to look at the next best thing, and something we know to be part of the standard model, electromagnetism. they're near enough the same thing...

photons are energy that have no mass. its my understanding that the 'energy' present in a photon is not constant, it varies, kinda like a beacon. this energy cannot vanish or travel so it must be carried by something when it[photon] has no energy. if the photon has no energy then the energy is held outside the packet....i believe this is where the 'virtual particle' comes from

Now, forgive me if I sound like a total idiot, but would this or can this discovery lead to time travel or teleportation without having all the molecules being disintegrated?

Like others have said already, higgs doesn't allow for time travel or teleportation HOWEVER recently there were a couple of chinese scientists I believe that successfully teleported some photons over 100 km distance through quatum entanglment I think.

Edit: Actually, while doing some light research I did stumble upon some talk about how the singularity would remain constant, even if you removed or altered the black hole's mass. I'm a bit confused by that, but it might give you some sort of answer or base to work off of. I need to look more into it to give it credence, though.

It remains constant since the singularity has no volume. When you calculate the density you divide the mass by the volume, since the volume is 0 the mass is irrelevant as the density will always be undefined.

EDIT - On a slightly related note if you have an hour to spare, check out this talk by Lawrence Kraus. He is a great speaker and I'm sure it makes for fascinating watching for most who will likely be reading this thread.

It has and it hasn't, does that make sense? It's cleared up exactly what the Higgs Boson is and what the big deal about it is but then are a load of other questions thrown up in the air. I'll take tomorrow to read up all about CERN and the LHC.

Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul.

Great thread, and pretty awesome topics from what I've gathered so far, but my brain is fried right now and I just can't keep up with some of these posts lol. I'm sure I'll be returning to this one though

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