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And yes. MAYBE it isn't working. Maybe it is. Anyone claiming to know is - pardon my language - talking crap. I'm certainly not claiming it's working. I'm merely admitting I don't know, and pointing out that nobody else does either, no matter how many "I worked for a computer company and X costs " numbers they cite.

Thats pretty fair. I'm not sure how well it is or isnt working. There was alot of grumbling around me when they switched character builder and upgraded.

But number of users times $10 a month seems good. However, costs and other items have to factor in.

I don't understand the relevance of that to my point. Yes, people used (and still use) hyperbole. I don't see why I should consider that as part of any serious estimation of numbers.

The point being that with WotC's move to DDI and digital format, as opposed to print form, in this case, yes wizards CAN take away your books if your using DDI as opposed to dead tree formate. They stop supporting the things they use now- DDI, Character builder, Monster builder.....you really wont have anything to work with after the move from 4e to 5e. Unlike the move to 3.5 to 4e where i have a ton of books.

The point being that with WotC's move to DDI and digital format, as opposed to print form, in this case, yes wizards CAN take away your books if your using DDI as opposed to dead tree formate. They stop supporting the things they use now- DDI, Character builder, Monster builder.....you really wont have anything to work with after the move from 4e to 5e. Unlike the move to 3.5 to 4e where i have a ton of books.

But that doesn't address whether it works. It only addresses how you feel about it.

I was there too, and I didnt see half of what he claimed. So unless he can back it up, I call foul.

You were the one who provided the thread, carmachu. There have been at least two others on the same forums with even more bashing, and even more deleted posts. Hell, it got so bad that someone actually went and started a thread entitled "Gamers, what the heck is wrong with us?" that itself ended up locked with deleted posts.

How is he supposed to back it up when the posts were so egregious that they had to be deleted?

It's not enough for you that people are saying, yeah, we were there, they were pretty bad? I think you're pretty damn far from having grounds to call someone full of crap.

Because I wasn't currently in a game, and the character builder and monster tools changed, I dropped my subscription. Had one or the other not changed, I may not have. Inertia, object in motion and all of that. It was cheap enough that I could satisfy my curiosity.

You were the one who provided the thread, carmachu. There have been at least two others on the same forums with even more bashing, and even more deleted posts. Hell, it got so bad that someone actually went and started a thread entitled "Gamers, what the heck is wrong with us?" that itself ended up locked with deleted posts.

How is he supposed to back it up when the posts were so egregious that they had to be deleted?

It's not enough for you that people are saying, yeah, we were there, they were pretty bad? I think you're pretty damn far from having grounds to call someone full of crap.

I can't provide numbers or anything about the majority of posts or anything like that, but I can say that I checked on that thread fairly early on and was shocked that there were multiple people saying very nasty things in rapid succession, and was pretty turned off by the vitriol involved. On the other hand, there were several stand up people that were asking why people were being that negative. It was fairly shocking for my when I was reading the first few pages is all I can say.

It's not my fault! Puppies are small, fuzzy, and just so, so kickable!

The Auld Grump, like fluffy little soccer balls....

*EDIT* I think his point is that the DDi has had a fair number of missed dates, opportunities, and expansions, as well as a goodly dose of mistakes plus some backing and filling on parts that were actually working.

This does not mean that Paizo could do a better job, just that WotC could have.

Me? I don't know if Paizo would do a better job, but WotC has a record of more than a decade for screwing things up. (And eventually pulling the plug on the folks who finally got their first effort working....)

Paizo has done nothing in that regard, which at least means that they have no bad reputation to live down.... More likely, I suspect, is that Paizo may eventually license the rights for software to somebody who actually knows what they are doing.

You were the one who provided the thread, carmachu. There have been at least two others on the same forums with even more bashing, and even more deleted posts. Hell, it got so bad that someone actually went and started a thread entitled "Gamers, what the heck is wrong with us?" that itself ended up locked with deleted posts.

How is he supposed to back it up when the posts were so egregious that they had to be deleted?

It's not enough for you that people are saying, yeah, we were there, they were pretty bad? I think you're pretty damn far from having grounds to call someone full of crap.

In a 6 page thread he made the claim that it was overwhelmingly calling for the antichrist of a designer. Even with several posts deleted, that claim in patently FALSE. And you know it

No, its not. A handful of bad does NOT EQUATED TO OVERWHELMING CALLING the deisigner names. So yes, its full grounds for calling his claim crap.

But that doesn't address whether it works. It only addresses how you feel about it.

How well will it work for 4e when it moves to 5e? Thats not feeling about it at all.

Its like me buying your products(digital formate) then when you move on to a new edition, Its no longer accessable. Thats not how I feel, thats something I either have or dont have.

I have your war of burning sky frmo 3.5.......in print form. I didnt have any desire for it in JUST PDF format, because its not physical form. if you updated it to pathfinder, 4e, something else.....unless i have it saved its not around(I assume).

In a 6 page thread he made the claim that it was overwhelmingly calling for the antichrist of a designer. Even with several posts deleted, that claim in patently FALSE. And you know it

No, its not. A handful of bad does NOT EQUATED TO OVERWHELMING CALLING the deisigner names. So yes, its full grounds for calling his claim crap.

Some? Sure. A couple? Yes. Overwelming? He's full of it.

He said that an overwhelming number of people dissed the designer in question. I agree with him. You don't, clearly. I do know that if I were the designer in question and I witnessed the reaction that forum community had to me no longer having a job, I would certainly be overwhelmed.

I appreciate that you're trying to defend the community in question, but it doesn't need you to defend it. It needs to either shape up quick, or accept the reputation it has repeatedly earned.