Two Big-Name Evangelical Pastors Do Not Endorse Minnesota Marriage Amendment

Minister, theologian, speaker, and author John Piper “came out against gay marriage during a sermon Sunday but did not explicitly urge members of his Minneapolis church to vote for the amendment.

Leith Anderson, President of the National Association of Evangelicals and who served as senior pastor of Wooddale Church, in Eden Prairie, Minnesota, from 1977 to 2011 “also said this week he does not plan to take a public side on the amendment, which would change the state Constitution to define marriage as a union between a man and a woman.”

Religious observers say the lack of formal backing from the two influential figures could signal that evangelical leaders in Minnesota are taking a less active role in supporting the amendment — a marked departure from evangelicals in dozens of other states where similar amendments have passed.

“Don’t press the organization of the church or her pastors into political activism,” Piper said during his sermon, posted on Bethlehem Baptist Church’s website. “Expect from your shepherds not that they would rally you behind political candidates or legislative mandates, but they would point you over and over again to God and to his word.”

How did we get like this? There are numerous Christians who believe that a personal, private faith is all the Bible requires. Os Guinness described this as “The Private-Zoo Factor,”[1] a religion that is caged so that it loses its wildness. When true Christianity is applied to any part of the world, it blossoms far more fully and colorfully than we ever could have imagined.

Over time, Christianity ceased to be a comprehensive, world-changing religion. “[W]here religion still survives in the modern world, no matter how passionate or ‘committed’ the individual may be, it amounts to little more than a private preference, a spare-time hobby, a leisure pursuit.”[2] Theodore Roszak used an apt phrase to describe much of modern-day Christendom: “Socially irrelevant, even if privately engaging.”[3] Let’s apply the Piper-Veith methodology to slavery and Nazi Germany. There’s a real-world opportunity to put an end to slavery, avoid a civil war, social disruption, and the deaths of 600,000 Americans, and become a beacon to the world on how to handle a national sin and crime if the pastors stood up in their pulpits and encouraged their people to go to the polls and vote.

A similar scenario confronted the Christian people of Germany before the rise of Adolf Hitler. Richard V. Pierard comments:

In the nineteenth century . . . German Lutherans made a strong bifurcation [separation] between the realm of public and private concerns. . . . Religion was the domain of the inner personal life, while the institutional and external, the public, so to speak, belonged to the worldly power. Redemption was exclusively the province of the church, while the law, determinative for external conduct of human affairs, was solely the province of the state. Religion was a private matter that concerned itself with the personal and moral development of the individual. The external order — nature, scientific knowledge, statecraft — operated on the basis of its own internal logic and discernable laws.[4]

For decades before the rise of Hitler, Christians were subjected to arguments like the following from pastors and theologians based on a private-public, two-kingdom theory:

“The Gospel has absolutely nothing to do with outward existence but only with eternal life, not with external orders and institutions which could come in conflict with the secular orders but only with the heart and its relationship with God.”[5]

“The Gospel frees us from this world, frees us from all questions of this world, frees us inwardly, also from the questions of public life, also from the social question. Christianity has no answer to these questions.”[6]

Once the Christian understands the moral significance of the state, Wilhelm Hermann declared in 1913, “he will consider obedience to the government to be the highest vocation within the state. For the authority of the state on the whole, resting as it does upon authority of the government, is more important than the elimination of any shortcomings which it might have. . . . For the person who is inwardly free, it is more important [that] the state preserve its historical continuity than that he obtain justice for himself.”[7]

While many Germans might have been opposed to Nazi policies at a personal level, they had been conditioned to believe — because they were Christians living in two kingdoms operating with two sets of standards — that they could not do anything about these rapidly implemented policies at a political level.

The day may come when the State starts attacking you and me. While our churches might speak out against the action of the State, they might not intervene to save us.

From Around the Web

Notes:

Os Guinness, The Gravedigger File: Papers on the Subversion of the Modern Church (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 1983), 79. [↩]

The Catholic bishops have energized the faithful as never before. Maybe a fight is what has been needed.

dhm52

The two kingdoms theory is really strange because the Holy Bible says the exact opposite, in various places.

http://twitter.com/sschaper41 Steve Schaper

The way the pietists changed the doctrine of the Two Kingdoms in the 19th century is sadly a problem still with us, and it is alien to what Luther and the Confessions meant.

Jesus Christ is Lord of -both- Kingdoms, and right and wrong are not different between them, and the Church retains the teaching and prophetic office from the Old Testament, to inform those who hold public office as to what the difference is between right and wrong.

Rosebud

Christ did not speak to the government about the slavery of the Romans or how the people lived in Egypt. I believe that if people live out their faith and make decisions based on Bible perspectives and not be fooled by quacking ducks...dictators and tyrants would not be in power in the first place. Vote your convictions based on truth of the Word.

http://profile.yahoo.com/S5LTIUY2CJEO55SEOISW367HYU PeterW

He spoke about slavery and told Christians to be good slaves to their masters. All men have masters be they human or Divine or demonic. He also clearly defines marriage. (See Matthew 19).

Garland Harris

The current state of affairs proves your theory to be incorrect.

Dornell

God is love and his love has guide lines. People love their children and discipline, not batter and destroy them for their own protection. It is sure that we all sinners and not perfect, but it is while we were still sinners that Christ died for us (Romans 5:8). . The only thing that is wrong is what the Sovreign God defines as wrong. Don't be decieved. The sanction of sin in any form results in Judgement. Jesus told little stories to help his disciples understand this. We must all learn that no ones has a relationship with God on their own terms. The rules are the same for everyone. Like driving, we all had to take the test, pass it and the driver's exam. To keep a license means we obey the traffice laws, renew the license when required, and pay the fines of traffice violation when we fail to keep them. The word Gay is made up. Adultery has not been re-defined, nor fornication, nor murder, theft, child abuse, or sinful any passions of the flesh. God loves all of us, but he hates sin, and has said so. He has the last word and will invoke his wrath. Future events cast a shadow before them. Captain of the Titanic was warned, but did not heed the warning. Politicians were warned about the terrorist a year or more before 911, but nobody believed . Peter tells us that we are to warn men to flee from the wrath to come. We are really trying hard to save these people from distruction.Jesus warned Isreal. They refused to listen and the Hitler Holocaust ate them like locust. May God help you to understand his love. Telling homosexuals the truth is the greatest extension of love that we can offer. If we refuse Mercy, we get justice. Mercy is pardon, and justice is what we deserve. God is not a man that he should lie. He offers grace for free, but requires that we walk worthy of his calling from and not to sin. None of us can live anykind of life that God forbids and claim to know him. Finally, Jesus said we are either for him, or against him. Take your stand in peace, and may God help you to choose the righteousness that he offers in Christ Jesus alone!!!!! God loves you, and so do I.

Pastafarian

It's true. The Bible supports slavery. Slaves should obey their masters in the same way that they obey Christ. Epesians 6:5-9 In some cases God himself commanded people to be sold into slavery. Matthew 18:25 Bible passages have been used throughout history as a justification of slavery. When abolition was proposed, many Christians spoke vociferously against it, citing the Bible's acceptance of slavery as 'proof' that it was part of the normal condition. Newer translations of the bible have softened the language often replacing the word 'slave' with 'servant'.

philipsquires

The Bible does not support slavery. It is true that people used the Bible, but it does not support it. The Ephesians reference is about obedience and has nothing to do with weather or not slavery is bad. The Matthew reference is a parable, which is a fictional story. Keep in mind also that slavery back then was more like indentured servitude, in other words they would work to pay off a debt. Also where there was slavery, as we know it today, it was used mainly as punishment, such as God sending the Israelites into slavery for disobeying Him or worshiping other gods, which implies that slavery it self is bad and needed to be avoided. And God also sent people to free slaves, such as Moses and the Israelites in the last chapters of Genesis and early chapters of Exodus. One last thing, it was Christians, like William Wilberforce, who used the Bible to abolish slavery.

Pastafarian

If you are going to filter through the apologetic filter of what it was like "back then" you should also consider that the sodomites in the bible were not loving homosexuals but rapists that committed these offenses as a violent tactic of humiliation. Much like the prison rapes that happen today.

The interpretation of your religious texts have been wrong before - like the slavery bit we talked about. It wasn't until 1992 that Pope John Paul II admitted that the geocentric views of the bible were taken too literally and in 2000 finally apologized to Galileo who was found "vehemently suspect of heresy" for saying the earth revolved around the sun.

The bible's best scholars have been wrong time and time again over the centuries. Can you at least try to fathom the concept that once again, it may have been misunderstood?

traz

Interestingly, you talk of interpreting texts. That is not what we do. We allow the scripture to speak within its historical context. You have bought a recent bogus bill of goods regarding the story of Sodom. Those that have espoused the view that the major sin of Sodom was rape and mistreatment of people have no new evidence upon which to make that claim. Further, it is bogus because it comes through minds who have a bias of projecting homosexual behavior as accepted and within the scope of God's human creation. History has had no bias, just allowing the scriptures to speak in their historical context. My suggestion is to get out of your current school of theology and let scripture speak for itself...

Pastafarian

So do you believe that the Sun revolves around the Earth like the bible says? The pope seemed to suggest that passage has been misinterpreted. Do you believe the earth is only 6500 years old and that dinosaurs are a myth? Do you believe that Noah and his wife captured and secured 10 million species of animals X2 and housed them in a gigantic floating zoo he built by himself?

Your religious text is fine as a series of parables and stories - like Homer's Odyssey and Iliad or One Thousand and One Nights (Arabian Nights). It is not meant to be taken literally, these are moral folktales and poetry, not a historical document.

Mr. Incredible, in Jesus' Name

Everything you say there is irrelevent to the spiritual journey.

traz

The language of the sun rising and setting is simple anthropomorphic language, neither designed to explain scientific truth or begin any "faulty" mumbo-jumbo. The earth, when we let it speak to us, is within the 10,000 plus year range. Evolution can no more explain or prove the billions of years it requires than you or I can. They simply do not exist. Dinosaurs and man lived together on the early earth as evidenced in the creek bed in TX where a human foot print is found fossilized within the print of a dinosaur. As well not all species as we see them today existed. The simple process of adaptationt ells us how animals interacted with their environ to become what they are. Again, if we let the earth speak for itself, instead of forcing a theory upon it, it speaks very clearly. Carbon 14 dating is fraught with many problems of its reliability, but no one will openly talk about it because that discussion cuts an important leg out on which evolution stands. Now, truly the Bible is not, nor intended to be a scientific textbook. But truth is truth, and it stand as an historic source of understanding. It's primary existence is to record the redemptive history of God's inter-relation with people like me and you. You do understand redemption, don't you?

nursepat

Your first mistake is to listen to the so-called experts. They are only human. What true chrisitians do is to read scripture and allow the Holy Spirit to show us the meaning that applies to our situations. The so-called scholars thought the earth was flat and if you sailed too far you would fall off, but in one of the Psalms, David himself said that God is enthroned above "the circle of the earth". Kind of looks like a poor shepherd had it over on the scholars, huh.

nursepat

I kind of agree with you. The Bible does not support slavery, but dealt with the reality of it. It gives guidelines to go by if you happen to find yourself in that situation. It was also used as judgement for disobedience, remember the diaspora, when Israel went into exile in Babylon; do you think they went as kings and govenors? No they went as slaves because God was trying to get their attention and turn them back to true worship and away from idols. He showed them that He was the only one who had the power to change their estate, if they would just return to Him. There seems to be a strong corrolation to the things going on now. It would seem that we are in need of turning from our sin and returning to true worship. Think it over.

Dornell

Thank you for your comment! I might add that Mr. Lincoln (a conservative President) signed the emancipation proclaimation for the end of slavery. At the objection of the Dixicrats, he invited Mr. and Mrs. Douglas to the White House for a Gala, and the 2 of them were friends. This is not a political appointment, but the truth must be told to Blacks, that this man like John Kennedy, lost his life for the protection of Civil Rights for Black people in this country. When a persons heart is in the right place, it doesn't matter his political affiliation. But any man who comes against the living God will experience his wrath. The truth is love. Rejection of God's word is sure wrath. WE all need to know that, We can never beat the living God, because he never loses. He is a winner, a hero, and it is his way or the highway. Unbelief will never deter his righteous judgement. What he has said, he will do. Cast your cares, desires, or whatever separates you from his mercy, onto him. He does care for you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

traz

Scripture doesn't "support" slavery, it accepts the existence of slavery at the time of its writings. Follow the use of "slavery" with the children of Israel. It was used as a way to payback a debt, but never established as a way of life. In the NT Paul particularly was interested in changing people's lives. So he spoke to slave and slave-owner alike to be transformed in the way they lived, kindness given toward the slave, and integrity toward the slave-owner--both of which apply directly to our employer-employee relationship. Accepting that slavery existed is not support.

Lee

You need to attend a stronger church

bakedbones

I have come toy the conclusion that one simple but significant action that needs to be taken by we who disapprove of the militant gay movement is to remove all color from the rainbow they have usurped from the covenant God made with Noah. Therefore, I suggest to all supporters of traditional marriage that we need to disarm the militant gay movement by STRICTLY portraying any "Gay Rainbow", be it flag, map or whatever, in gray scale, . . devoid of any and all color.

http://www.facebook.com/jeffrey.long.737 Jeffrey Long

This should be run as an ad in the Minneapolis newspaper! Minnesota pastors: wake up!!! [from and NC pastor]

This more than 'just a political issue'. IF ministers do NOT speak out against same sex marriage, & encourage their members to do vote for the amendment, then they are in essence agreeing to same sex marriage. UNLESS this was done FROM the pulpit to keep the IRS from revoking their tax exempt status. However, I would rather lose my tax exempt status, & have to spend a little extra money, & do what is RIGHT in God's eyes, than to waffle on an issue THIS important!

CAL SIBERT

AMEN!!

carol

I agree

SD

I think you misread the article. It explicitly stated Piper preached a sermon against gay marriage. That doesn't sound like he is being "silent" to me.

Noah

Somebody misread, SD. Did you happen to read the "but did not" part?

texas58

Noah, do you believe everything you read from a left wing rag like the Star Tribune? The article was a fabrication, especially re. Piper! It is nothing more than a left wing attempt to convince some weak minded people that some Evangelical leaders are lessening their opposition to sodomy. Are Christians really so weak minded as to believe trype like this w/out checking it out first?

William

Keep in mind, of our two Senators: One is a Communistic demigod, and the other is a rejected comedian. Both were endorsed by the majority of media outlets.

And yes, I still live here to, if anything, ruin their party!!

Jim Nelson

Amen to that!

Denise

AMEN! I totally agree with you Sharon.

Kathy

Amen. If we as Christians are to look to out pastors as leaders they must lead. If we fail to be salt and light to the world, everyone loses far more that tax exempt status. We are here for such a time as this. Can you imagine the apostle Paul refusing to take a stand? It's time for Christians to stand up. We can't choose to believe the parts of Scripture we like and discard what we don't. I'm tired of people saying we are judging gay people, It's not aout judging, it's about believing and living according to His word.

revgay

right on! this wimpy preaching we hear from our pulpits is not helping anyone and is just an indication of how close we're getting to the end times!

texas58

Who says it was wimpy preaching; the Star Tribune? Do you believe all the nonsense this left wing rag puts out? The article is incorrect and not to be believed, especially re. Piper. It is an attempt by the leftists at the Star Tribune to convince some weak minded people that bonafide Christian leaders are dropping their opposition to sodomy. Don't let yourselves be troubled by such lying reports.

Sasseyfrass

The leaders in the church are playing like the leaders in Washington. They are trying to stay right in the middle of the fence so as not to make anyone mad and this way they keep people wondering exactly what do they support. I wonder how manuy of them are gay. I didn't notice Jesus sitting on the middle of the fence when he destroyed Sodom and Gomarrah! ! ! ! ! !

http://twitter.com/BradNova Brad Nova

Minnesota will be the first state to defeat this discriminatory legislation!

God Bless!

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_OGJNWURL6AWS7ITF5M3Y5ILNXI Natalie Johnson

Yes, ma'am. Amen.

revgay

absolutely!!!~we need to be speaking out---so many of our freedoms are being taken from us

Randy111

Sharon, I fully understand and support your opposition to gay marriage, but there are many other reasons besides religion for marriage consisting of one man and one woman. I suggest those other reasons should be the basis for supporting/opposing governmental legalization of gay marriage, instead of "the bible is for/against gay marriage". First, marriage of one man and one woman is the custom, tradition, and law which protects and promotes our family unit, the bedrock of our society. It is a remarkably practical way to order a society and preserve it, and should not be tampered with.. The two reasons behind the push for gay marriage are hardly reasons enough for society to fundamentally alter american society by legalizing homo unions. The first reason is mercenary. The push for gay marriage resulted from the AIDS epidemic when same sex couples living together had to face the daunting prospect of one or both of them acquiring the illness. They wanted coverage of the one partner by the other's employment health insurance, and legal marriage would solve that problem for them. The second reason is politico-social. Some elements of the gay population want to be considered "normal", just as acceptable in every way as the heterosexual population. They think their unions should be considered as role models for society. Civil Rights--or rather civil preferences are what they are looking for. These two reasons, either singly or together are not reason to revolutionize the status of marriage and the family unit in the US. .And frankly, I do not think the United States Constitution offers gay rights activists any support in this fight.

nursepat

I beg to differ. The uppermost reason to oppose gay marriage IS that it is an abomination before God. This "obsession" was promulgated first by Satan to corrupt God's creation and to introduce disease into the mix. There are people who have left the lifestyle and say that after christian counseling they found that there was no love involved, just obsession with another person. Some report that they have come so far back toward God's ideal life that they have married (heterosexually) and had children because they now realize what true love is and that it can only begin with God. In the reality of God's creation the homosexual can not be "normal", because if they are normal then the race will die out for lack of progeny. No new people born while people still sickening and dying equates to eventual extinction. The thing they don't understand is that as true christians we love them, but realize that their lifestyle leads to more bondage and sin. I pray that All homosexuals meet the TRUE Christ and finally understand that there is no condemnation for them personally, just a wish to lead them back to God's ideal life. He loves everyone so much that He hung on a cross for us--All of us--anyone who has ever sinned and drifted away from God, and there isn't one person on earth that can say they are perfect.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000175020450 Terrance Adams

Amen!

Pastafarian

The tax exemption of churches is unconstitutional. In order to get a religious tax exemption - the government needs to 'establish' your group as a verified religion. Why would some religions get in and others would not? Because the government has passed a law that establishes what religion qualifies. Completely against the first amendment.

texas58

Don't believe everything you read, especially when it comes from a lift wing rag like the Star Tribune.

Raymond1

You know by today's standards none of us were supposed to ever make it.

HIGH SCHOOL -- 1958 vs. 2012

Scenario 1: Jack goes duck hunting before school and then pulls into the school parking lot with his shotgun in his truck's gun rack.

1958 - Vice Principal comes over, looks at Jack's shotgun, goes to his car and gets his shotgun to show Jack.

2012 - School goes into lock down, FBI called, Jack hauled off to jail and never sees his truck or gun again. Counsellors called in for traumatized students and teachers. ............................................................................

2012 - Police called and SWAT team arrives -- they arrest both Johnny and Mark. They are both charged with assault and both expelled even though Johnny started it. ....................................................................................

Scenario 3: Jeffrey will not be still in class, he disrupts other students.

1958 - Jeffrey sent to the Principal's office and given a good paddling by the Principal. He then returns to class, sits still and does not disrupt class again.

2012 - Jeffrey is given huge doses of Ritalin. He becomes a zombie. He is then tested for ADD. The family gets extra money (SSI) from the government because Jeffrey has a disability. ......................................................................................

Scenario 4: Billy breaks a window in his neighbor's car and his Dad gives him a whipping with his belt.

1958 - Billy is more careful next time, grows up normal, goes to college and becomes a successful businessman.

2012- Billy's dad is arrested for child abuse, Billy is removed to foster care and joins a gang. The state psychologist is told by Billy's sister that she remembers being abused herself and their dad goes to prison. Billy's mom has an affair with the psychologist. ...........................................................................................

Scenario 5: Mark gets a headache and takes some aspirin to school.

1958 - Mark shares his aspirin with the Principal out on the smoking dock.

2012- The police are called and Mark is expelled from school for drug violations. His car is then searched for drugs and weapons. ..............................................................................................

Scenario 6: Pedro fails high school English.

1958 - Pedro goes to summer school, passes English and goes to college.

2012 - Pedro's cause is taken up by state. Newspaper articles appear nationally explaining that teaching English as a requirement for graduation is racist. ACLU files class action lawsuit against the state school system and Pedro's English teacher. English is then banned from core curriculum. Pedro is given his diploma anyway but ends up mowing lawns for a living because he cannot speak English. ..................................................................................................

Scenario 7: Johnny takes apart leftover firecrackers from the Fourth of July, puts them in a model airplane paint bottle and blows up a red ant bed.

1958 - Ants die.

2012 - ATF, Homeland Security and the FBI are all called. Johnny is charged with domestic terrorism. The FBI investigates his parents - and all siblings are removed from their home and all computers are confiscated. Johnny's dad is placed on a terror watch list and is never allowed to fly again. ....................................................................................................................

Scenario 8: Johnny falls while running during recess and scrapes his knee. He is found crying by his teacher, Mary. Mary hugs him to comfort him.

1958 - In a short time, Johnny feels better and goes on playing.

2012 - Mary is accused of being a sexual predator and loses her job. She faces 3 years in State Prison. Johnny undergoes 5 years of therapy. ..............................................................................................................

Jeffrey Liggens

You see it that way, because you genuinely do not understand what is really at stake here. I believe it is God's Spirit leading these ministers in their response. You might want to pray for some serious understanding of this issue, because you don't have it.

nursepat

I keep thinking of Detriech Bonhoeffer. He refused to tow the Nazi party line and preach hatred, so he ended up in a nazi prison, but he was able to stand before Jesus and hear "Well done, thou good and faithful servant." He is a shining example to all who would remain true to the one who saved them.

fisherjmj

The Archbishop "the Lion of Munster" did not keep silent, and the German Catholics protected him from Hitler. I believe he is now BLessed.

One of the bases of US law is British common law. The common law for centuries upon centuries thoughout all countries has been that marriage involves a man and a woman (or more than one in certain societies). To attempt to change this to a union between two persons of the same sex is to invalidate these many centuries of common law. Of course, the scriptures likewise indicate that marriage involves two persons of opposite sexes and looks with jaundiced eye upon any union between two persons of the same sex, but I am not attempting to argue theology. A simple consideration of physiology should be convincing since with two persons of the same sex the parts don't fit.

And, this 2 kingdom nonsense is why America is in the shape she's in. Because Christians said that the politics didn't concern them, what the world wanted to do did not involve them, so they didn't vote, or speak out against things. That's how prayer got taken out of school, how abortion got 'legalized', & how the homosexual agenda has gained such a foothold on our country. Get out & vote whenever there's an election, & at least voice your opinion, even if the issue gets passed, or not passed, depending on what it is, at least God won't tell you when you get to heaven that you failed by not telling people that something was right or wrong, by not voting. And, don't use the excuse that your vote doesn't matter either way. Our pastor told us about a minister in our community that had run for an office in the county, something VERY important, & lost by 53 votes. He later found out that over 200 of his members didn't even vote, so now the county has it legal for alcohol to be sold by the drink.

Steve

If a pastor doesn't boldly preach what is right and wrong, then he/she has lost their moral compass and should no longer be in a position of religious authority. Whether there is something that is inherently wrong with the proposed amendment or not, a pastor should clearly proclaim that God's word, the Bible, clearly defines marriage as between a man and a woman, and anyone who votes otherwise is not voting in accordance with the Bible. There is absolute truth; right and wrong. The reason we have the mess we have in America today is because Christians either don't vote, or they don't vote in accordance with their religious and moral beliefs. God is pro-life and God is pro-traditional marriage (a man and a woman, not two men or two women) and those views are clearly expressed in the Bible. Any Christian who votes otherwise is going against the Word of God.

Patsy S.

Steve, you are so right, if only the Church had spoken up against Roe vs.Wade would have been defeated. The church has lost its voice in the world. This is the end time church,with no power.

http://www.facebook.com/burl.west Burl West

Roe v Wade was not voted on.

sasseyfrass

The Church has no voice. They gave up their right to speak when they didn't speak while Gay's and blacks and minorities were speaking, and marching and protesting. Where was the Church then? They were sitting on their duffs saying, "God will never let that happen," or "If God be for you who can be against you."I WAS A LITTLE GIRL, in kindergarten and I heard that a zillion times when they were first discussing taking Bible out of schools. God said "I will lead you" and "Take up your cross and follow me." He can't lead us if we are sitting on our butts doing nothing and we can't follow him while we wait for him to take over and do it all. We kept so quiet for so long that now they are passing laws to forbid us from speaking. Folks, lets start making some noise. We've been nice too long. By the way, the boy who's mother, Madeline O'Hare, had the Bible removed from School so he wouldn't have to read it, became a preacher and his mother died alone, without a friend. Some think she was murdered. The earthly posession that she ownd that brought the most at a sale to pay her back tax, was a, A BIBLE.

Lawrence Knight

Dumb as I am. I`ve never heard of either one of these so called Pastors. But, I have heard of jesse jackson and al sharpton. Could be, they all went to the same sckool. Who said they were Pastors?

Garland Harris

God is NOT "pro-life" and "pro-traditional marriage"! God is Love, God is Light, God is Spirit! Don't bring politics into God's Word, let's take God's Word into politics and everywhere else by quoting what God says He is in His Word.

Mr Mike Reality

white man speak with forked tongue.

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_OGJNWURL6AWS7ITF5M3Y5ILNXI Natalie Johnson

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: (Deut 30:19) What was that about God not being pro-life?

baxtor

Right on Natalie! Thats a good verse you showed ,Jehovah God is prolife and protraditional marriage ,he said it himself that man shall leave his father and mother and cleave to his own wife and they shall one flesh,thats marrage,traditional marriage,you noticed it was a woman his wife not another Adam,but an Eve a woMAN.The LORD may not use the tern in his word traditional marriage but the principal is there.Just like the subject about the trinity ,the word trinity is not there not the principal is,andthe verses support that God is a trinity of persons,yet one God . Some people don't know the bible to stop false teaching before it turns to people that become cults with errors in their teachings.

philipsquires

"God is NOT 'pro-life' and 'pro-traditional marriage'!"

This is news to me. Throughout scripture the Bible calls babies that are still in the womb as "child". And condemned those that would kill them. As for not being "pro-traditional marriage" it was Jesus Christ (the son of God, and the second person of the trinity) who said: "But from the beginning of the creation, God 'made them male and female. For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'; so then they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate." Mark 10:6-9 Sounds like He was "pro-life" and "pro-traditional marriage" to me.

Sasseyfrass

Don't bring politics into God's Word???? God's woprd if full of politics and he even instructs us to pray for our leaders. So you want to revise another bible and ytake politics out of it?

Sasseyfrass

Please excuse the spelling. I have two broken fingers and the keep hitting two keys, and I forget and enter before I spellcheck. Sorry

baxtor

No one is putting politics into God's word,we are talking about is God ,pro traditional marriage and is God prolife,This words prolife and protraditional marriage are not found in the word of God,this doesn't mean that God doesn't support life and traditional marriage,which is a covetnant not a contract . the problem is that liberials want to make accusations that we shouldn't put politics into God's word is putting copyrights on His Word,when God speaks on every issue of life,even government.These that support Obama. think like. Liberials would like the government to come into a church and listen to a message in the attempt to filter his message or scare the pastor in as much that he doesn't preach the whole council of God ,this is been attempted through one of Obama's bills to stop preachers from from preaching against homosexuality as a sin .

nursepat

He is most-certainly pro-life. He said do not murder. He IS pro-traditional marriage because He said that marriage is sacred and should be between one man and one woman, and that homosexuality is an abomination before Him. Don't get me wrong, He is LOVE,LIGHT<and SPIRIT, but these other things are attempts by Satan to corrupt what He created in His image.

nursepat

what the hell did this site do to my post?! I wrote that He is love, light, and spirit. This obsession is an attempt by Satan to corrupt what God creatd in His image.

Patriot2

Garland, sir, you have not read the same Bible that I read. God is defininitly PRO-Life. One of his ten commandments says, "Thou shall not KILL." Sounds pro-life to me. Garland, did you ever read the story of God destroying Sodom and Gomorrah? He sent fire and brimstone raining down upon these two cities totally destroying all the people who lived in both cities. God destroyed them because they were completely turned over to homosexuality. God also had previously defined his attituted toward homosexuality by saying that it was an abomination and stinch in his nostrils... Sounds to me like God does not endorse the homosexual "alternate" lifestyle. Many times after the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, God used this example of total annihilation to remind folks that he knows exactly where we live and he can certainly take care of our failure to listen to him. So, Garland, your definition of "politics" is all messed up, sir. And, please, buy yourself a real Bible, such as King James version, and READ it.

http://profile.yahoo.com/QND6PUZPXQ6S5KBUWZD5Z63KCQ BarbaraH

AMEN!

nursepat

I for one am sick of hearing "Politics don't belong in church". That is hooey. Our whole lives must be governed by what we know of God and how He would have us act. But there is another head to this problem, people want to compartmentalize God into just one day a week and not carry Him home. If Christ were taught and worshipped in the home then our moral compass would not be so far askew. The message is clear "Return to me" says God.

Patriot2

If the ministers behind our pulpits simply preached the whole bible, without regard to man, or favoritism, or fear of reprisal, then America could recover from this present darkness that has covered our wonderful nation. The fact that the word of God has been compromised for so long, ministers have failed to declare the whole counsel of God, our nation has backslid, fallen from grace if you will. In such a condition, turning our face away from God, seeking to please our own selves, and the flesh, we come into the condemnation, or judgement of God. The Old Testament is filled with Israel and Judah's doing the exact same thing; knowing God's law and choosing to go their own ways. God sent judgement upon them, trying to get their attention and turn them back to him... God is doing this with America today. It is up to us; will we heed his call or completely turn our backs on him? God does not have a Plan A, and an alternate Plan B. He does not play Lets Make a Deal. His eternal Word states his plan. It is forever settled in heaven. Not one jot or tittle (dotting of an i, or crossing of one t) shall never be changed. The Word of God is LIFE, and LIGHT, and POWER, discerning of our thoughts even afar off (before they come into our minds!) and sharper than any two-edged sword, dividing asunder of joint and marrow. We all can read. Get the Bible down from the dust covered shelf in the closet and READ it for yourselves. It contains the fount of all wisdom and knowledge, and a fool and wayfaring man will not err therein. In other words, if you sincerely desire to understand the Word of God, His Spirit will guide you into all truth. You shall know the truth, and the truth will set you free.

JohntheBaptist

I'm not familiar with John Piper or Leith Anderson. In this Post Modern age, I've learned that everyone who calls themselves "Evangelicals" do not always have evangelical "DNA." I grew up in the evangelical world and I can avow that true evangelicals would speak up strong and long for this amendment.

pretzeldude

A Pastor, Preacher, Minister or Priest that won't take a definitive stand against gay marriage needs to leave the Church. Furthermore if they don't take a stand they WILL ANSWER to GOD for not taking a stand. So wise up men of the cloth GOD IS WATCHING you. You will be held to a higher standard as Clergy.

BILL CAMOTA

The real problem in this issue is we focus on "self" instead of Jesus Christ. Jesus said "without me you can do nothing". Because of sin we do not obey him.

P. Andrew Sandlin

Superb post, Gary. Political pietism is selling the nation down the river.

Doug Hensley

The pastor may have a point. Good government is not the same thing as good theology. We do not criminalize gluttony, for instance. This is because the law is a blunt instrument and it is wiser to leave almost every transgression of theological law to theological authorities. Earthly authorities do best to stand aside except in cases where one person is doing violence or fraud to another.

http://twitter.com/angel13wowings Faye Shamblin

I believe the Bible and it does not say God made man for man or woman for woman he made Adam and then he made Eve if these who try to be different would get their Bible and read then they would see either they need medical treatment or get rid of the devil and ask God Forgiveness and get their act in place and that will be the only way they will ever get to Heaven

http://twitter.com/OldRedWing Tom Martin Morofski

D. Bonhoffer and many of his fellow Lutheran Pastors sopke out of the injustices of the Nazis ... and he paid for it with his life. May you and I be strengthened by our Lord with His Holy Spirit that we may not flinch while standing in the gap as to how this world's currant affairs will effect our children and grandchildren. Remember these words? "Real religion is to help widows and orphans in their distress."

http://www.facebook.com/blisskristyn Bliss Kelley

This is appalling!! These evangelicals need a backbone. If Christianity was supposed to be the way that they are claiming, why didn't Jesus just take you to heaven once you were saved instead of leaving you here to live amongst unbelievers?! Intervention must be done, not just as a pastor or an evangelical, but as a citizen of the United States of America! Pastors and Evangelical leaders have rights and duties as American Citizens and need to contribute to society, not be set apart from it. They will also give an account to God for every action and choosing not to do something is also an action. True leaders lead by example, not by sitting on a pulpit barking orders yet exempting themselves! Take up your cross, be doers of the word not hearers and speakers only. Take Action!

Curry

These "pastors" would be well served by reading some of the sermons written by preachers during the period of 1620 - 1820, particularly, 1740 - 1795. Those pastors, those men, were fearless orators and evangelists who would never, ever have tolerated not taking the Gospel into public life. To them the only difference between public and private life was who was watching - and did not the Apostle James say that "faith without works is dead"?

Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God. A Sermon Preached at Enfield, July 8th, 1741.

Jonathan Edwards

Church of Christ in Northampton

http://www.facebook.com/burl.west Burl West

Are we sinners in the hand of an angry God? Nay! We are sinners in the hand of a loving God who is giving us himself and urging us to join him in His work.

Anita M

Yes, we have a loving God, but He is also a righteous judge. He will only wait for so long before He judges our land. His hand has already begun to be lifted on our nation. As we continue to allow ungodly behaviors to become the norm, the more He will remove His just hand from this nation and we will be judged. People love to take the point of our God being a loving God, however, He is a God whom will judge us one day. Make sure you are where you need to be in Christ and not be lukewarm wherein He will spit you out of His mouth (see Revelations).

nursepat

Sept 9th, 2001 was the first call to repentance, but instead of turning back to God, our leaders shook their fists at God and declared that we would rebuild WITHOUT God's help. The exhibits of national pride without giving God glory are the hieght of arrogance, and He hates arrogance. We keep suffering and in turn shaking our fists. How long will it take for our nation to realize the real issue is not terrorists, the economy, or anything else of this earth; the issue is simply that we refuse(as a nation) to repent of our sin and worship the God of all creation.

Yes God is a loving God, but He is also a Holy and Just God. He can not stand sin or even allow it around Him. He will be the Righteous Judge when He judges mankind. But He loved us enough to come down in human form, Jesus, to die for our sins because our sins must be punished. Just as He judged Israel of old so shall He judge America for the sins committed. Our streets run with blood from the innocent and the fact the Church has not spoken out against the sins that are going on now such as homosexuality. The Church in America has fallen far from where it should be and has become lukewarm and dead. There are sparks here and there but the majority of churches have become dead.

baxtor

When Christian churches don't condemn sin,the society suffers,and God will judge us ,not as that are lost,but that as a father chastening,correcting his children.

baxtor

God is Angry at Sin,and loves the sinner,When you recive Christ as your LORD and Savior the wrath of God no longer abides on you,but you accept the wrath Christ took for you on the cross,and He imputes or account unto you His Rightiousness on your account,thereforeyour no longer lost,but saved,you have the Holy Spirit whom comes into you and stays as your comforter Your no longer a sinner but a saint ,meaning holy in Christ. You have to have both if we have "absolute truth,or you'll have incomplete truth. When we say God we mean Jehovah God ,not some generic god but from the word of God,the LORD

nursepat

Yes, He is loving, but His patience does have an end. There comes a time when people blaspheme His name and nature to such a degree that He will act to prove that He is still the God of all creation. Even His chosen people were allowed to suffer at the hands of pagan peoples when they had made fools of themselves and defamed His name enough.

Helen

I totally agree with you. We do not need to just sit in the background and keep our mouth shut.

Garland Harris

You ROCK!

NIck

Bliss, I like your enthusiasm, Piper did come out against gay marriage, now that you know where he stands go and do likewise! Be active, go out and vote. My conscience is the same against gay marriage. I will vote and vote pro-life and against gay marriage.

http://www.facebook.com/people/James-Mills/1387372799 James Mills

Cowards. We should speak up--John the baptist called people to repent!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh there is a word no one wants to hears--stop doing what you are doing and do a 180.

AllantheK

When did a covenant with the Living God (thru Jesus the Christ) become irrelevant in our daily (public) lives?

Lawrence Knight

I would say. About the time the supreme court decided that prayer didn`t belong in school....

dowdajeff

Glenn Beck warned about this 4 years ago, he told us, if you ever hear the term or see actions reflecting social justice within your church, run for your life. They have infiltrated the churches by using threats of loss of tax exempt status and regulations that restrict there ability to spread the word of God publicaly and they have been ordered by the state to not promote any politician or party from the pulpit. But at the same time are told to promote social justice from the pulpit. An example of this is in Obama's first year, Nancy Pelosi and other democratic representatives were shown on the Liberal news agencies at their respective churches telling the congregation to spread the word that Jesus represents social justice. Obama himself said he could not recieve his salvation unless he led us as a collective to our salvation. Salvation is not recieved from a collective, it is as individual as finger prints, each person recieves it differently but individualy. It can be shared with the group and testified to in the numbers and should be. But, collective salvation is not the christian way, that leads to things like Waco Texas and others that have lead the collective to their deaths.

Brama

There's a big difference between speaking out against the mass slaughter of people of a specific ethnicity, and politically supporting an amendment regarding something that is already clear and practiced in the word of God. We already have laws on the books for everything, and this latest is only further proof of the lost-ness of out society. Not that I don't see the positive of what you propose, Godfather, but the overwhelming masses of those in the church rarely share their faith. I'm less frustrated at political action as I am the failure of most "Christians" disobeying the command of God to preach the gospel, which truly that will save men and change hearts, and not just prevent them from getting married.

Minnesota appears to be an extremely Liberal state and the ministers are probably afraid of having no congregation left; however, it is better to have a few people attending church who are true practicing Christians than a congregation of hypocrites with standing room only. I'm also beginning to be of the opinion that like politicians, church policies and pastors views go where the money comes from. Are churches being given large donations from Homosexual Rights groups?

There was an example of this type of thing in Lubbock, Texas. For many years the city of Lubbock was "Dry", but there was a strip outside of the Lubbock city limits where package stores operated with unimaginable success. This situation continued for decades because the package stores donated to the churches to preach against the evils of liquor, so no good citizen would vote for Lubbock to go "Wet". Sure enough, when the churches were no longer strong enough to move enough citizens to vote "Dry", the package stores on the strip went out of business, and the churches lost their funding.

Many Fundamentalist ministers are Socialists, and immorality has Socialism as its basis. When the Federal Government is willing to pay for immorality, such as 43% unwed births in the U.S., there is no way to stop immorality. All of this has prompted me to wonder who is paying the ministers to push Socialism and all of its many facets of immorality, including homosexuality? Who are the "Big" donors to churches these days?

http://www.facebook.com/burl.west Burl West

Will you participate in Social Security? Can't get much more socialist than that.

Pastafarian

Churches do not pay taxes, yet get taxpayer benefits like police and fire protection, sewer and trash removal, roads, bridges, and public transportation and a justice system that they constantly abuse. The church has lobbied politicians for years and have demand they put in place laws like the prohibition against alcohol Ann mentions above. They are wanting to take AWAY your rights - what's next? gambling? cigarettes? cursing? shellfish? rated R movies? You can take your behavior police and go back to your commune!

Rollin McKim

If we don't have sound theology, we slip.

ajfrench

Well he did the right thing. He declared the Biblical view from the pulpit but did not usurp his tax exempt status by marketing his desired vote at the poles. Perfect.

ArtF

Over time, many pastors have chosen the path of safety and irrelevance for both themselves and the church body. We have also seen such movements by certain specific denominations, many of which have suffered greatly at their disavowing of Gods word. While it is true, as Christians we are to live on this world but not in this world, and our salvation, for true Christians is assured. However, when pastors, for whatever reason including intimidation by the IRS, fail in Christs commandments of the Great Commission, and fail to speak out for non-Christians to fully understand why we are Christians and why we believe Gods word, then we have to question the quality of the Christianity of many pastors, which Paul called False Prophets and Christ called Blind Prophets. That does not relieve of us of Christs Great Commandment. Salvation is indeed free, yet we are also required to repent from our sinful ways, and for some that is seemingly impossible to do.

Roger

"Let’s apply the Piper-Veith methodology to slavery and Nazi Germany." I presume this micaght be a reference to Gene Veith, but it's never otherwise mentioned or explained. I wondered why you referenced it that way.

Personally, I find the gay rights/gay marriage issue troubling on many levels. I think many Christians have hated where we ought to have been compassionate. I've worked with homosexuals, who would gladly have been otherwise were it purely a matter of choice. Sexual sins are all contrary to Scripture, but many Christians regard homosexuality as worse. I strongly suspect, from my observations, that many homosexuals have been victims of abuse. I see less that persuasive evidence that all "healing" works. And, now, in a country that has slowly drifted away from its historic Christian foundations, too few of us can make a viable case to our culture for the Biblical values we hold. What the German church did was wrong. Failing to oppose slavery would have been and was wrong. Still, this is neither about race nor about killing Jews; this is but the final step of a long, slow decent into hedonism which the church has largely ignored and now cannot find its voice with anything more than Bible verses that the world does not accept.

We live in a different world than the founders, who could discuss the ideas of influential philosophers and use them to support their largely Biblical worldview. Few Christians have a Biblical worldview or even know what that really means, and postmoderism's relativistic let-everyman-choose-his-own-reality makes philosophical discussion nearly impossible. In this context, science has proven the homosexuality is "naturally occurring" or even what actually causes attraction to one's own sex. Accepting it as a separate classification of gender, supported by civil rights law, assures than no one will dare do research on the subject. Preparing ourselves to make the substantive arguments powerful enough to oppose the powerful gay right lobby will not be easy. How many will be willing to risk their comfortable acceptance on the margins of the culture to take up the challenge?

Finally, in how many American congregations dare a homosexual man acknowledge his struggle and receive the loving support of his brothers and sisters to deny his feelings? Will he find a family to replace the one he or she may never have if they're unable or unwilling to embrace a heterosexual relationship for which they have no desire? Gays don't suffer economically, making their needs different from, say, blacks. Yet they are often scorned, ostracized, and even hated, perhaps even by Christians. I believe our challenge is much greater than whether a pastor will take a political position. As with abortion, if we seek only a political solution without winning the cultural argument, we will lose, both the issue and the reputation of our Lord's Church.

This so-called gay marriage is at the very least blasphemous, because they are saying God’s plan is not good enough. It is prideful and arrogant because they are saying to God they have a better plan. And He answered and said, “Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, and said, ‘FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH’? “So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.” Oh, you mean God created marriage? So maybe we should ask Him before we redefine what He created? You think?

cappie

How can we Honor God and not uphold His Commandments and His word? His word is a lamp unto our feet and a light unto our path. God's blessings of prosperity and His covenant of protection is BASED ON ADHERENCE TO HIS WORD and that sets a standard for public policy. Marriage is a Biblical concept and here in America there are monetary benefits for married couples.Th ese ideas where put in place to strengthen the family unit. God also gave a law for divorce for hardness of Heart. God seems to work with humans on what they want even if it is contrary to His Will. In this case give the gays the monetary benefits that married couples get but don't call it marriage. Joe Lieberman had it right! Call it Civil unions.

Suzanne Marienau

The Bible clearly warns against homosexual behavior. It is abhorrent to God. Read Romans 2:26-32. The Bible also warns against all sins. God knows we are sinners. We were conceived in sin and we will die in it. However, God forgives all repentant sinners. To God, sin is sin. He doesn't condone any of it. We as humans oftentimes wrongly think of some sins as being worse than others. God doesn't share this view. God does not change. He still views homosexual behavior as wrong and forbids us to participate in it. When church leaders fold to the ways of man versus the ways of God, then they are no longer teaching or supporting God's will and are misleading their flocks. God warns that those in authority who mislead will be penalized more severely than the rest. I have not seen where God has recanted His position on homosexuality. If you are attending a church that embraces homosexual behavior or does not warn against it then you are attending a church that is no longer teaching the Word and will of God. Find another church. Far too many churches are becoming churches of men rather than churches of God. We seek our own earthly pleasures and don't worry about their consequences. No matter what we believe, it is not all about us. It is about God. God invented marriage. He made the rules - marriage is between one man and one woman. Period. Anything else is wrong and isn't marriage at all. It is so sad to think that church leaders would rather cater to current political views than support and defend God's Word. These pastors are not following God's laws and should be ousted from their churches.

ED

European court of human rights - States will not be forced to allow gay marriage-Nov. 30,2010 German Supreme court no gay marriage in Germany-June 16,2010 Italy highest court rejects same sex marriage APRIL-14,2010 French high court reject gay marriage Jan.28,2011 Colombia Supreme court rejects same sex marriage Nov.17,2010 Navajo Nation bans same sex marriage April 23,2005 But do you hear about this on the NEWS? No!!!!! They make out like America is the only place in the world that is against Gay Marriage.GODs Word speaks about it. Go to gayterribletruth.wordpress.com and read it for your self.

Nottakenyan

Plain and simple. The illegal, lying Kenyigar is a Muslim and that is truly a mental illness. He is hellbent on destroying religions and freedoms in this country. If you want to be a puppet of this current adminstration, vote for the dictator. If you DO NOT want to be controlled, vote for Mitt Romney!!!

Jeffrey Liggens

Well it's about time. At least these two pastors get it. If a Christian pastor/leader will not influence there congregation to vote morally and ethically at the poles, they certainly shouldn't be encouraging them to vote erroneously. If the Church does not vote fairly and equitably, then they should not vote at all. John Piper has spoken wisely, if not by the Holy Spirit. May the Lord bless, keep, and continue to guide him and the Flock he has been called and appointed to lead.

marthacarol

Luther's "Two Kingdoms" teaches that Christians are citizens of Heaven as well as of this world. As a life- long Lutheran believer, I was NOT taught that this means we just keep our religion to ourselves! That would be entirely unBiblical. Jesus taught us that we are to "let your light so shine before men, that they might see your good works and glorify your Father who is in Heaven."

Please don't misrepresent Lutheran doctrine here!

http://www.facebook.com/people/Mike-Inman/100001461957539 Mike Inman

This is one thing Luther learned as a Catholic priest and did not give up. And living here we are to be the Church Militant. Militant against all evil. Put on your armor and fight.

marthacarol

Yes; wasn't St. Paul arrested (and punished) time after time, for "obeying God rather than men?". He was fulfilling his purpose on earth.

We are to be lawful citizens, but there are many examples for us to look to, in the history of God's people, where they had choose between God and the world.

fmjoe

We need to get back to believing the Bible more than the writings or ideas of men. The Lord said to Solomon in 2nd Chronicles 7:14, "If my people who are called by my name, shall humble themselves and pray, and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways; than I will hear from heaven, I will forgive their sin, and heal their land." We need a revival in this country now! The bottom line is God's people need to get their act togetehr first before we can have a revival. Pray we do have a revial before there is no more Amereica!

Stephen Parker

I think that your column would have been better if you had at least talked with Piper to understand his reason for taking this position. Knowing him a little, I believe his reason is his passion to proclaim Jesus Christ, which is not to be confused with an American civil religion. I would propose that those PC socialists in government, hate being told to repent of their sins because they are going to answer to the righteous and holy "wrath of the Lamb" in judgment. This is why they hate the 10 Commandments, it condemns them, and they reject Jesus Christ. St. Paul says in Ephesians 6 that our real struggle is "not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places." These liberal politicians are just the puppets of Satan. And since this is where the battle really lies for us, proclaiming faith alone, in Jesus Christ alone, by grace alone, as taught in the Scripture alone, for the glory of God alone, is what true preachers of the Word of God must preach! If those who hear it, get it, and receive it, believing into Christ, and abide in Christ, being obedient in every aspect of their lives, then how they vote on the marriage amendment is a simple and clear response to their faith in Christ. You can "take it to the bank" that Satan would much rather have the Evangelical and Fundamental churches rallying in support of the amendment than proclaiming Jesus Christ crucified and risen. He loves it when Christians rip and tear each other, (they are serving Satan) which your column has the opportunity to do. I would also suggest that some of your fans that are Christians, should reconsider the harshness of their words and judgments and repent of being used as a "tool" for Satan.

chuckawala

Matthew Chapt 25:44“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45“He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

What will the Lord say to Christian Pastors that did not use their influence to speak out to protect the least of these from Gay adoption, abortion, immorality & lawlessness in a society with leaders like our President, that legitimizes these things?

john

wow,great article. Shades of William Wilberforce! He didn't keep silent. How are we to follow Peter's admonition to" put to silence the ignorance of foolish men" if not by good deeds AND words. Just a thought

Lee

John, you make a great Pharisee. quote 1 scripture and ignore the other 10,000 opposing scriptures

http://www.facebook.com/drsambelt Sam Beltran

The Progressive-Socialist left is using Bait and Switch. As soon as Christian Leaders accept the baid and specifically talk against a law the the P-S JD will swoop in and put them in jail or take away the tax exemption and close the church doors - this is a blatant fascist tactic to eliminate those who disagree, an extension of union bully tactics. The SEC, Ecology Police, IRS regularly use threats to create fear and weakness in those who won't knuckle down to their anti-Constitutional fraud that put BHO in the WH

Acts10

Pipers sermon will be understood by those 'With ears to hear'... The followers of Jesus Christ will know how to vote.

Lee

Jesus was outspoken in a wise way. Non- Christians will not understand and simply assume they support gay marriage. Piper is not Jesus

wearyconservative1946

Sounds to me like Pastor Piper is doing the exact right thing in his handling of this issue. He's teaching the Truth of God's Word to his congregation, then leaving the decision on how to vote in their own hands. IMHO, that's what a Pastor is for; to lead, to teach, inspire, and persude by example, but not to beat his congregation over the head. If he's done his job to this point, and it sounds like he has, these people already know which way to vote. Pastor Anderson's stance isn't quite as clear, but all he said was that he wasn't going to take a PUBLIC stand either for or against, so here again, if he's taught his congregation the Truth of God's Word, the people will follow the dictates of their own heart and vote the right way.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Mike-Inman/100001461957539 Mike Inman

He is not doing enough. He is failing.

ed

those "Christian" men may call them selves believers but they have lost their saltiness. You know what happens when a Christian loses their salt?

charles196144

Phony ministers.

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_JKLLPVKKSWYRHLZH3LDQMZRW6A dean

Are these two pastors gay?

http://profile.yahoo.com/S5LTIUY2CJEO55SEOISW367HYU PeterW

What lily livered men who will answer before God for their luke-warm Laodician comments. Marriage was spoken of and DEFINED by The Lord Jesus Christ Himself - there will never be a marriage in the eyes of God which is not male to female - ever.

MATTHEW 19 2 And great multitudes followed him; and he healed them there. 3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? 4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, 5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? 6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. LET NO MAN PUT ASUNDER THE BOND BETWEEN MALE AND FEMALE AND MAKE AN ABOMINATION BEFORE THE LORD. America: you are storing up the wrath of God and the Cup of your Iniquities is filling rapidly.

These Pastors will be accountable for how they took care of their flock. They need lots of prayer always for the decisions they make. Not an easy job to do, but led by the HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD, ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE!

jbdollar

All Piper is saying is that we as ministers do no make politics the first priority in the pulpit. Our kingdom is not the USA but the Kingdom of God in Christ. The USA will eventually morally collapse and join the rest of the empires in the dust bin of history. Christ's church will move on. If the modern evangelical church was truly concerned about the moral tone of the nation, it would quit pandering to the public and preach to them the truth about God and His Word. Instead we adjust the worship and music to fit the times and to be "seeker friendly", and try to keep them happy and coming. If more preached like Jonathan Edwards, this nation would not be in such a wreck.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Mike-Inman/100001461957539 Mike Inman

Extremely poor reasoning of such ministers then. Because any correct Christian moral doctrine can be made political at the whim of liberals at which time when the faith is made political (by Satan) it is no longer permissible to speak out from the pulpit in support of it? Balderdash!!! Marriage between only one man and one woman is Moral Doctrine and THERE IS NO TIME we are not to support it from the Pulpit to the highest hills. Such is so also in defense of religious freedom as our Catholic Bishops are leading. Every Christian should be supporting Fortnight of Freedom.

repubnut

Some are Pastors and some are "Public Speakers"--Pray to know the difference and follow the lead of Christians Pastors regardless what State they are located !! Christianity is a " GOD" thing not a State thing ---

God expects those who are His people to take a stand against all things that are sin. It is time that all of us that are Christian peope take on open stand against laws that go against His Word.

Harold

This not political activism, this is a moral issue, In the last days supposed people of faith are deserting the true gospel'.

http://profile.yahoo.com/KSWT33XLJCOGY2QO5FAVJ6TI6E gerry

What gets me even more than silent pastors is born again Christians who will vote for Obama. The snake needs to be cut off at the head and not the middle. The "Black Coats" during the Revolutionary War left their pulpits and got involved in the fight to oppose oppression in the field. They fought and died just like those during the reformation, these men followed Christ and were not cowards. God help us today to be faithful followers and take action against oppression and do His will. Who else on earth is going to speak out?

Harold

The republic of Minnesota, and gutless wimps and compromising weaklings, who profess faith in God, and do not the truth.

SSMcDonald

I smell wolves in sheep's clothing, an increasing malady in the Christian Community. And that includes the author of this article

http://www.facebook.com/burl.west Burl West

Blow your nose.

Supertad108

On the surface, and I'm inclined to have a finger pointing, that these guys are being faced with.. Today choose whom you will serve. Marriage? How many words have been redefined over the years? Most into some perverted contortion of a deprived mind (from God) to mean whatever feels good. Gay. The enemy has drawn us into a battle that is not winnable. The battle is morality NOT creating a new definition for yet another word. Our stance should be one of a lifestyle that is completely unacceptable given any definition and in any quorum. We shouldn't even be having this argument. These individuals could care less about definitions of words. Let me leave you with this.. How long do you think it took Satan to deceive Eve? A day? A Year? 1000 years? Point, the enemy is a broken faucet and the drip continues to erode the Soul. What battles are we actually called to fight? To finish.. I would vote YES in OUR Republic the definition of Marriage IS between a Man and a Woman. Not going to let you deviants have this word. What's next.. redefining the word sex? Making some actions NOT sex. You get the drip.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Rick-LapLante/1073274392 Rick LapLante

When our country was founded, the pastors LED the country in helping us understand the threat and the direction to take in the fight against those who would restrict our freedom. They were so feared by the British that they got the label "the black robe brigade" and the British routinely burned churches to the ground to try to suppress them. Have we come so far that the church is no longer willing to help us fight for our freedom?

Lynn10015

It does make a difference on how children are taught, such as in morality and a good work ethic. They do grow up into adults eventually. Children are our future too.

Rocky

It is very evident that these so-called "evangelicals" are only charlatans taking money from saved born-again believers while preaching "another gospel." I don't know John Piper's stand on abortion is, but I had read that Leith Anderson supports abortion and I could not believe it. I called his church office and asked to speak to him. The secretary refused and asked what I wanted. I told her that I wanted to know if the report I read that he believed that abortion is acceptable, and she stated "Rev. Anderson is very openly an advocate for abortion under all situations." I said, "On what Scriptural basis does he take that position?" She said "He does not believe abortion is a religious issue at all. I will take your name and have him call you and you may speak with him." I thank her and hung up. It has been over a year now and I haven't received a call. Like, Haggard, these men need to be shunned and thrown out of any church that wants to stand on the Word of God.as totally inspired of God. They are leading men and women to hell with their teachings.

Mynickelsworth

Please ask the two preachers, who will not openly endorse the Minn. Marriage Amendment, how they expect to win the lost to Faith in Christ when they will not oppose evil? The Bible says to confront the Devil and he will flee. These two guys are hiding instead of confronting the evil. They are afraid they might offend someone and it would cost them money or position. For Shame!

http://www.facebook.com/stan.hannan Stan Hannan

Like it or not these two Pastors are not wrong.Romans 13 speaks very clearly to the issue regarding legistlative interferance which however does not preclude us from preaching and addressing morality and social issues. The problem is organizations like this one and others who demand preachers concurr with their agenda and relate to and sign up with their cause. Piper is absolutely correct, our task is to "preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ" not the political agenda of others.Your article is both deceptive in its comparisons and misleading in its conclusions.

flaphil

I wonder what other sinful acts are they not speaking out on? Maybe it's their religion and has nothing to do with God's word.

Mynickelsworth

Rosebud is also hiding instead of confronting....The Christians in Rome didn't hide even though it cost the their lives, some eaten by lions, but they had Spiritual backbone. America is, in my opinion, being punished today because of 'Christians' failure to stand up for the Faith.

Here is more of John Piper's sermon.http://www.desiringgod.org/blog/posts/your-pastor-is-not-your-political-activist While I understand his point, that the pastor cannot tell you how to believe politically, with this issue (gay marriage) the Bible is clear, and he should not be side stepping the issue. My pastor doesn't. Unfortunately, it may be MORE than losing tax exemptions, it may become a issue of the pastor being jailed and/or fined for saying what the gov't doesn't want them to say. It has come to that in some places, and perhaps these men are afraid of that. They wouldn't have lasted long in the 1st century church then, would they?

mike

did you guys not read the article, it said that John Piper condemned homosexual marriage but did not tell his congregation to vote for amendment but he didn't tell them not to either. Just because he didn't use the pulpit for secular reasons most of you condemned him. Maybe he is leaving politics to the politicians and he is doing what GOD called him to do feed his flock from the word of GOD.

http://profile.yahoo.com/7XTBGKCIAJPWAIZDWEPUHUDLTI nightlyonewolf

I imagine they will be scratching their heads wondering why they were "left behind" when Christ returns in all His glory! Isaiah 5:20.....Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

CajunPreacher

Over the past nearly 70 years I have observed and was told by my mentors, that older line Pentecostals and some evangelicals for many decades did not participate in public life expressions of their faith. No involvement in politics or political issues. When these issues became important, they would always have their "heads in the sand." Meanwhile, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke) When good men do nothing, they get nothing good done. To be good, one must do good. The Lord commands his people to do good (Luke 6.35; Eph. 2.10). Christ "gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works" (Titus 2.14). As a young college and Bible school student many decades ago I was in St. Louis. I noticed the sale of drugs and prostitutes offering themselves for sale on many street corners, meanwhile the police were not present. I took my Bible and began to preach on a street corner nearby. God blessed with many coming to hear and respond. Several hours later two street policemen arrived and told me I needed a permit to do what I was doing. Meanwhile, within sight a Hare Krishna adherrant was offering pamphlets and selling items on his street corner. I pointed this out to the policemen. The policemen said they would have to arrest me if I did not cease (one of the drug pushers had reported me). I told them to arrest me and that later that evening it would be on network news. Walter Cronkite would be reporting about it. That scared the policemen and they moved on and I did not see them again. We remained there for almost 2 more weeks and saw the Lord perform acts of mercy and love and only what He can do. When I left, there was no remaining drug pushers or prostitutes on any street corners in the area. God led me to meet up with a street evangelist in Baton Rouge in the fall and we ministered to a similar situation on Plank Road in Baton Rouge. The then mayor of Baton Rouge said after our work there was done for that season, that we had saved the city over $3 million in law enforcement costs! Lesson: when one obeys the Lord and becomes active with their faith, it will be a great financial blessing to the political or government. That was a result we had not anticipated, nor intended but there it was.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1357090716 Jerry Morgan

I don’t care what others say. I believe two men marrying is immoral. If every person in the world accepted the homosexual life style, God doesn’t. Everyone who lives that lifestyle will still have to stand before God in judgment. No man made law will ever trump God’s law. One thing to remember, even atheists turn to God when faced with death just as Hugo Chavez and Castro have done.

Rocky

John Piper recently completed a "sabbatical" from preaching (in other words, time off "with pay" gouging his church). I suggest he take a permanent "sabbatical" from preaching all together or get right with God. Leith Anderson preaches such "watered down" salvation that it is a wonder anyone ever gets saved (if they really do) but only "join his church."

JKinPace

Speak out. Remind all of God's statements about "man lying with man as a woman", yes. But to say anything about how to vote will be to invoke the ire of the IRS. The government has the laws rigged in their favor. If tax free organizations say anything about voting, they are no longer tax free.

"Not to speak, IS to speak. Not to act, IS to act!" Bonhoffer. If you're going to sit on the fence, you've already become part of the system, machine, whatever you want to call it. You've already thrown your support in with evil. Get off your duff and do something. Where Christ saw evil, he called it evil. Where he saw goodness, he called it goodness. He rebuked evil and those who followed after it. He commended good and those who pursued it. Did he sit idly by when confronted by the elders and members of the sanhedrin, who were after all his community "government"? Or did he call them corrupt and state why? Pastors, now is the time YOU are called to shepherd, to LEAD your parish flock. Will you FAIL Christ utterly? If you're not up to the job of caring for your congregation, get out of the way for someone who will!!!

PPTA

You can not serve two masters. This is in the New Testamen. If you want to know where, just ask me. I am a independent voter. I will vote for any one, who will preerve our freedoms, I do not vote party any more. And I sure can not vote Democrat any more because of their stance on so many issues that I can not believe in. Democrats never use to be like they are now. When I grew up in the 40's and 50's, they stood for Christan Values this Nation was founded on, they stood for a strong National defense, he stood for he working man and a working mans family, None of them do now. It is only behind the scenes special Interests, that govern both parties. I get a real bang with the liberal News Media, and Democrats runing down the Koch Brothers supporting the Republicans. But they never mention George Soros do they. Who is every bit as rich as the Koch brothers, but supports socialist Democrats. What is the difference????

You Democrats need to get rid of the socialist members amoung your ranks including Soros. you Rpublicans need to get rid of the Rhino's, including the Koch Brothers. And above that, We badly need a AMERICAN, in office as President. The Democrat attorneys admitted in Tenn. that Obama is not qualifid by the contitution to be President. But said that Tenn. has the right to vote in who they want to. I guess the law says I can not rob a bank, I really have the right to rob the bank, if I am broke. That is how stupid those lawers are and expect us ALL to swallow that.

trustygma

Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD. Jer.23:1 For the pastors are become brutish, and have not sought the Lord, therefore they shall not prosper, and all their flocks shall be scattered....Jermeriah 10:21 Time to change your pastor. Jesus is coming soon.

jim

The real problem here is Believers aren't prayin for their enemies or folks that don't know Christ. We become angry instead of trying to reach out to these folks. Gay or straight, black or white, Jew or Gentile they still need Christ. They are lost! There eyes are shut to the Gospel of Jesus. We were all there one time, remember? We Believers need to be on our knees daily crying out to God for their Salvation and witnessing to them also. We are God's hand and feet so lets get out there and and do as GOD commanded us to do and GO OUT INTO ALL THE WORLD......... How many of us Believers are actually telling others about Christ???? Be bold and courageous for Jesus!!

GinnyLee

The Pastor came out against 'gay' marriage. He is holding up his office as Pastor - doing his job. If the people in his congregation (the public) are listening, they will know how to vote, according to the faith. Too much import is put on 'the teaching place' here, and not enough on 'the faithful flock'. Church members (the public) are not invalid, nor are they stupid. They should live their lives as Christians, because of the leading and guiding from their Church leaders (Pastors, teachers, evangelists), if they are teaching from God's Word.

kevin

Obviously they are not true Christian leaders because the Bible says gay lifestyle is an abomination of Jesus Christ. Jesus says there will be those who claim to know me but I will slam the door in there face and say I do not know you. The lord is truth that will never change....

Cheeto Sareus

White ministers can't advocate for a particular law, amendment or candidate from the pulpit. If they do, Obama, Holder and the IRS will see to it that their Church loses it's tax exemption. On the other hand, black pastors can tell their flock who and what to vote for as long as it has to do with "rights" or "economic justice". White pastors can and do preach the Word of God and if their flock can't understand homosexuality is an "abomination" in the eyes of God, then they would not pay any attention to a pastor who might risk the wrath of Obama by telling them to vote for the amendment.

http://www.facebook.com/aemoreira81 Adam Moreira

The next time that a black pastor tells who and what to vote for will be the first. You can educate, but you cannot politick.

GinnyLee

The Pastor came out against 'gay' marriage. He is holding up his office as Pastor - doing his job. If the people in his congregation (the public) are listening, they will know how to vote, according to the faith. Too much import is put on 'the teaching place' here, and not enough on 'the faithful flock'. Church members (the public) are not invalid, nor are they stupid. They should live their lives as Christians, because of the leading and guiding from their Church leaders (Pastors, teachers, evangelists), if they are teaching from God's Word.

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_IPIT7YTOWBFRXAYTLMCJRPTLKY sillyboy

'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil, is for good people to do nothing'

-Edmund Burke-

OldCyeKoe

I think churches have accepted a bribe from government when they elected to receive tax-exemption. Now tax exempt status is being used to force the church to comply with the state's demands. A devil is still a devil even though he appears to be kind and benevolent.

Someone commented about Christians focusing more on themselves (and prosperity, and personal fulfillment) than on serving Christ. I believe that is true. Our self-indulgence is turning to bite us in the butt now. Christianity is not a hobby or a club: it's a battle, perhaps to the death. Folks, it's time to fight.

Robert Miller

Pastors with a backbone WILL speak out against this abomination. Those without a backbone will acquiesce.

mdellis

The IRS cannot revoke your church's tax exempt status because you make political comments as long as it is a Biblically based theme. These are only two pastors and they certainly do not represent the majority of pastors who definately oppose same sex marriage. If the Bible is a pastor's guideline and Christ is Head of the church then it is a done deal; marriage is between a man and a woman.

http://www.facebook.com/aemoreira81 Adam Moreira

However, you cannot tell the people to vote for or against any ballot issue or candidate; 501(c)(3 or 4) status prohibits that expressly. Under such a status, the Church cannot expressly take a position either way.

Case in point, on Obamacare, churches are only educating on the issue...taking no position.

Lee

Adam, ever here about the Free Exercise Clause? U.S. Constitution, First Amendment, "Congress shall make no law...or prohibiting the FREE EXERCISE THEREOF..."

http://www.facebook.com/aemoreira81 Adam Moreira

The courts have ruled that those rights are not absolute---and if your exercise of 1A interferes with another's rights under 14A, as 14A came later, 14A overrules 1A.

GinnyLee

The Pastor came out against 'gay' marriage. He is holding up his office as Pastor - doing his job. If the people in his congregation (the public) are listening, they will know how to vote, according to the faith. Too much import is put on 'the teaching place' here, and not enough on 'the faithful flock'. Church members (the public) are not invalid, nor are they stupid. They should live their lives as Christians, because of the leading and guiding from their Church leaders (Pastors, teachers, evangelists), if they are teaching from God's Word.

jd1958

This is what happens if Christians dont get involved and stay involved in politics.

carol

Everyone pray the Holy Spirit will chase these pastors down and reveal who they are... In such a time as this ,we the people need to be guided and have leaders of courage...

DaveM

I am dumbfounded as to why the issue of gay marriage is not addressed as an open attack on religious freedom. The Sacrament of Marriage, or Holy Matrimony, is a public sign that one gives oneself totally to this other person. It is also a public statement about God: the loving union of husband and wife speaks of family values and also God's. We have been bombarded for decades about the separation of Church and State... Fine. Then separate them.

Marriage is a Holy Sacrament. It is a contract with God.

A marriage license is a fabrication of the State to collect fees and taxes.

If the State, (local, state, or federal) wishes to collect a fee based on a individuals entering a binding contract, so be it, BUT it has nothing to do with whether your union is recognized by the many different religious entities in our country.

Bo_Kassa

Any Pastor who does not view marriage as a one man/one woman relationship needs to return to seminary to read and study the Words of Jesus Christ. Any Pastor who does not support the one man/one woman definition is a deceiver and not a true Christian and follower of Christ. Furthermore they should not be in a position of leadership in any real, truly "Christian" church. The Bible refers to homosexuality as a sin and an abomination in many places throughout the Old Testament. In Mark 7:20~23 Jesus makes reference to homosexual acts as evil that defiles you. As Christians we are to hate the sin but love the sinner. We are not permitted to condone sinful acts by either turning away from the issue or endorsing any sinful acts. Being gay is a choice made by sinful people as defined in the Bible

Thomas

As a Christian, my involvement in political matters is informed by my Christian morality and convictions. As such, I never miss and opportunity to discuss that influence in the public square. The problem in this conversation seems to reside in the conviction of some that this is a Christian nation. I prefer to think of ours as a nation that was founded firmly by Judeo-Chrisian principles and influences. However, I do not go so far as to say that the nation is Christian--I think today's circumstances prove otherwise, but can a nation really BE Christian? If the pastors in question are speaking with ulterior motives, as the first responder suggests may be true, then shame on them. However, they could say what they've said, then encourage their congregations to let their public involvement (voting, writing their representatives, etc.) be informed by their faith and convictions, and act accordingly. (To command such action would be a return to system of laws by which salvation comes.) Then, which would have more influence? Hundreds, maybe even thousands, of individuals acting on their convictions, or a single public figure making a statement? The temptation is to say that the latter is more influential, but history has told us that the powerful message of a personal Saviour in a fallen world--a message that is meant for an "inward" miraculous change--in fact was spread via humble means and, none-the-less, changed the world forever. May the "ends of the earth" include all dark corners, even those political--corners that no organizational or ministerial Christianity will influence more greatly than the humble one who has been truly transformed by faith.

Winston

Be very wary of "communitarians" in the pulpit because it is just another name for socialists. These communitarians will help usher in the one-world religion with the Anti-Christ.

SeaShel

If a minister supported gay marriage I would NEVER listen to them nor go to church were they preached as this is absolutely and positively against GOD'S HOLY ALMIGHTY SOVEREIGN WORD! furthermore, to take his WORD/LAWS and change them to fit your idea of right is blasphemy which can not be forgiven according to the BIBLE.

Rev. LTC Retired

History has already recorded that there had to be the "separation of church and state." Why, because the churches were domineering and often times misled the state and local governments officials. As this, over time, had become the norm, the churches drifted away from commenting from the pulpit, to say just what the people needed to hear and that was "how to act and react" in a political world.Of course, pastors laced their comments according to the scriptures.And by the way, scriptures do tell us how to BEHAVE, but do you think that the average Joe and Julie read the Bible? Well I know they don't. But, this was/is a problem, how could the pastors speak to the politico-social conditions w/o personal feelings? And too, all pastors were never to use the pulpit to make a comment either for or against politics. Or the pastors would be excused form the pulpit and the church. Also, pastors had to deal with the congregations that either knew too much or not enough. As I preached for over 40 years I saw issues come and go and wondered why I was not allowed to speak on behalf of my country. I did so, Vet. Day, July 4th, Memorial Day, and any other day that teemed of Freedom. I used the scriptures that were appripo and I would still get negative comments, and I was a 23 years old veteran. But people are too funny and "sot" in their ways, even to their thinking that the church I was assigned was not the church of Christ, but their very own church. So, there in lies the real problem. Our country was leaning/listing and it was because the church was showing the lack of who made the heavens and the earth, and the "CHURCH" has stood by and let it happen as well as why people old and young, male and female, rich and poor have left the basic beliefs in God for a different doctrine of " don't bother me with the facts" attitude and the world (this country in particular) has forgotten that We are His sheep and the sheep of His pasture and we need to find God Jehovah (not ali), obey His by reading the word for ourselves and then stand up for America and the American Ways and literally push obummer out of our country. Amen !!!

Moby

I can not beleive that two pastors would not speak out against this no matter what.

randellmd

This is why we are losing. the church bought into the lie decades ago that She should stay out of politics. Ppl better get off their "holy" blessed assurance and get busy defending our freedoms in this country!!!!

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_NLORN6B3ZNGCAJTFHWWFUUEY4Q jong

God has made this plain were he stands on the subject. He also has made it quite plain what happens to homosexuals and those that side with them even by omission. You can not be neutral when God has spoken

DrBillLemoine

Finally we have a clergyman, an evangelical leader, who follows scripture. “Don’t press the organization of the church or her pastors into political activism,” Piper said in Minnesota. If only the rest of evangelicals would follow this biblical lead and get out of social engineering about women's healthcare and reproductive decisions. VA Gov. McDonnell ruled himself out of vice presidential consideration becoming the evangelical's governor 'vaginal probe', unnecessary religious based intrusion into the private conversations and procedures women have with their physicians, some of which result in abortions the right wing political world doesn't want to happen. Right wing pols have in congress and the states have passed or promoted hundreds of anti-abortion measures using religious reasoning about 'personhood' and contraception that severely inhibit women's personal rights and societal obligations to control disease and pregnancy. Perhaps this MN evangelical is the forerunner of others following biblical prescriptions to love their neighbors and allow personal decision making in the sight of God regardless of what man and government want. God gets his freedom of choice; women get their freedom of conscience--God vs. mammon.

I agree with Piper. Churches and pastors are not mere organizing hubs for political activists. However, political activism should be a natural outcome of Christians understanding the implications of the Truth in their times. Hearing about God "over and over again" should make you want to implement his will here on earth, unless of course the theory of God the pastor is expounding is a misguided one that has God not caring whether or not America sinks into socialism. So long as pastors embrace sound theology and teach people the truth about God and about what God thinks about issues like men lying with men as with women (something God loathes deeply) ... well, you can connect the dots. These state marriage ammendments are great but what's more important is teaching Christians, young and old, why God loathes the so-called "homosexual lifestyle" and why it's wrong-headed to think of gayness as a genetic aberration rather than a set of behavioural and lifestyle choices that are subject to the moral law of God like any other set of choices we make. This is what pastors should be doing "over and over again" from their pulpits. If they do, they won't need to endorse specific legislative initiatives. The support of their congregations will be there.

E.S.Keaton

I wonder if todays "ministers" have every heard of the Black Robe Regiment and their role in the founding of our great Nation and our history!?

JacktheFAC

Shame on these pastors for NOT speaking out and taking a stand against this ammendment. The reason we are facing the situation in which we are in now is because the IRS has scared the pastors into keeping silence on important issues.

oldgreyhairedlady

I will just keep in mind that, 'there is a judgement day and we will all be judged alone'. No one will be standing there with me acting as a lawyer, I will be alone. And alone I will answer for the wrongs I have done. No excuses need be given or considered. Each according to their works and deeds.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Ron-Henderson/662755302 Ron Henderson

I am a pastor and can say decisively that same sex marriage is wrong. God condemns it and we as ministers and membership have no alternative but to vote down anything that is opposed to God's written word to humans. Let the chips fall where they may; sin must be revealed and condemned that all may know that we serve a living God who will judge everyone. Eternal life is the goal of every one. Eternal destruction of sin and wickedness is the alternative.

http://profile.yahoo.com/HBZY2YUGUU2J6L2VI3LJS2XF7Q Ralph Z

These preachers should be ashamed of themselves. They and all Christians are called by Jesus Christ to be SALT and LIGHT (Matthew 5:13&14). Also Jesus taught that Marriage was between a man and a woman (Matthew 19:4-6; Mark 10:6-9). If preachers cannot support what Jesus taught, then they should be removed from their positions of leadership in Churches and be stripped of their credentials of being preachers. This is in fact right and Love in action. You don't believe me? Check 1 Corinthians 13:6 which says that Love does not rejoice in iniquity and rejoices in Truth. Also Paul showed us by his action to appeal to Ceaser which was only the right of Roman Citizens and Paul was a born Roman Citizen, So it is not wrong to use our rights and to defy the Government if they go against God's Holy Word.

History shows us that Preachers during the founding of our Country spoke out on laws and even politicians with fiery sermons which were Bible based without twisting verses to make the people into rugs. Christians need to start standing up as Long as God grants us the rights and then when the state takes away the rights Christians need to stand up for Christ and not back down. If we are silent on subjects that affect us, then we deserve our rights and liberty to be taken away.

daverg

i see the liberal sick and twisted as the "nazi's trying to force their perverted agenda on the rest of us

http://profile.yahoo.com/HBZY2YUGUU2J6L2VI3LJS2XF7Q Ralph Z

They aren't "trying" to force their perverted agenda on the rest of us, but are using the courts and the politicians that support them to force the agenda onto our children and even on us at work. They want Christians to be silent and to fade into the woodwork. Look at the curriculum at the schools as well as the laws that state you cannot pray in Jesus name if you are asked to give a public prayer which to me is the violation of the First Amendment.

Paul

Consider that Sodom and Gomorrah were NOT destroyed because there was a few (or many) homosexuals living in these communities. They were destroyed because the communities had publicly condoned the PRACTICE. They made it not just acceptable, but desirable. Now consider where America (indeed, the world) is at today.

In defence of the pastors in this article, they DO speak against homosexuality but are just not telling people how to vote. They've done what they are supposed to do. Demanding from the pulpit that a congregation vote in any manner is how cults operate. Pastors are merely teachers. Shepherds of their flocks. Your faith in Christ is a personal matter. Having your pastor tell you how to vote is as distasteful as having your employer tell you how to spend your money. Or your government tell you what to buy.

God will judge you for your decisions and actions, not those of your church. Your pastor will not be standing by your side when you face God.

http://profile.yahoo.com/HBZY2YUGUU2J6L2VI3LJS2XF7Q Ralph Z

Being Salt and Light is not being just voicing their beliefs in a sermon and not supporting what is right. Paul told a Church that they were to remove from Corinthians congregation those that were committing sexual sins. (1 Corinthians 5) but he also had a man removed for cursing. They should tell their people that they should vote for this law and this is not being part of a cult. Their refusal to call for support and back it up with God's Holy Word is what they will be judged by God for.

MontieR

These two are no more pastors but false prophets. ANYONE who can read can understand the word calls men with men and women with women an abomination and ANY person telling people any different is LYING, both to themselves AND the people listening.

William

One thing to keep in mind is that if you are a 501 (c) 3 non-profit, you can't tell people who to vote for. By preaching against homosexual marriage in their churches, they are indeed urging their members to vote for marriage being between a man and a woman only. If the church members can't figure that out, they need to spend a lot more time in prayer than they have been. A pastor can preach to you, he can teach you, but he can't hold your hand 24/7 and make you do that which is right. Eventually, all the teaching, preaching that you hear, along with fasting and prayer, should enable you to understand right from wrong. The real problem today is, and I reeeeeealy hate to say this, Obama was right, Americans have become lazy. Not necessarily in their work eithic on the job, albeit I see a lot of that in the contract labor in my industry, but they have become spiritually lazy. They would rather watch TV or a video than to spend time in God's word, and in prayer. This obviously doesn't apply to everyone, but unfortunately, it applies to far too many in today's churches. We need to return to the old landmarks in our relationship with Jesus Christ even more than we do in our government! And we desperately need to return to the old landmarks of individual freedom and small government in our nation.

Bo_Kassa

If you are more concerned with 501 (c) then you are with the Word of God then money and the rules of the government must be your God and not Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Pastafarian

There is a simple solution. Drop the tax-exemption status and say whatever you want. It's time to get the church off welfare. Pay into the system before you attempt to participate in it.

acovenantinblood

Ha ha Christians in America today act so ignorant! Still worshiping at the altar of the Republican Party! Keep acting like the degeneracy of America has nothing to do with how worldly and degenerate the church in America is! Romans 1 spells out a nation that is abandoned by God because they abandoned His Word. It looks just like America. Lamenetations 3:40 says "Let us search and try our ways and turn again to the LORD. Contextually, it saying that when a Godly nation comes under judgment then it's because those who are "going after God" have substituted Abels sacrifice for Cains. Notice it doesn't say "Let us search and try our ways and if we are not Baptist, or if we are not Pentecostal, or if we are not Lutheran? This is a blanket verse. All believers must repent in sackloth and ashes turn from their wicked ways and beg God to intervene on our behalf. How would you feel if Jesus showed up and started thumbing through your DVD collection, or your CD's, maybe He would look at the history on your computer. What we He say? Would he say enter into My rest or depart from Me thou that workest iniquity. I'm so sick of this worldly blame game bull crap pouring out of "Christians" mouths. Hello Laodaecea, it's your fault we're in this mess! Now turn back to your first lovee before Christ Himself make a forceful removal of you from His Body and spews you out!

Bailey, FL

As someone who is politically active, I believe this is short-sighted. I feel led a certain way, but I understand others are taken down a different road for a different purpose. How can I judge my brother for not being political active? It isn't a virtue, that's for sure. It easily distracts, stresses and leads people astray - it's not for everyone. Besides my first point, there is a difference between taking a stance and encouraging political activism. The questions I'm curious about are what stance does a religious leader take, regardless if it includes a call to political activism. Has the pastors advocated against homosexuality and sexual sin, or not? If they have done this with an emphasis on Scripture, then they have done their job IMO. A second question would be, have they asked for guidance on how to react to the amendment and what was this guidance? We shouldn't be the leaders of ourselves or our religious leaders - God should be through our faith and submission. It is perfectly reasonable to me that our Creator could lead them down a path different from what we may or may not expect.

http://profile.yahoo.com/HBZY2YUGUU2J6L2VI3LJS2XF7Q Ralph Z

Nick, the limitations of 501(c)3 non-profits was placed into the IRS code was placed there by Lynden Banes Johnson (LBJ) who was a Senator at the time and hid it in a bill that was not read before the vote. As the First Amendment says that a persons free exercise of their beliefs and that includes freedom of speech, shall not be prohibited. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." This is the basis of our LAWS and no government entity has the right to bypass it. Not even the IRS. When will Americans wake up and start taking back our Government and the RIGHTS God has given us, but the Government wants to limit or take away.

http://profile.yahoo.com/HBZY2YUGUU2J6L2VI3LJS2XF7Q Ralph Z

Nick, I agree God could and would lead someone down a different road but there is one constant and that is His Holy Word and He would not lead someone to accept what he has called an abomination. Remember Acts 17:11, because if a preacher says something that contradicts what God's Holy Word says, we need to know what God's Holy Word says 2 Timothy 2:15, then the Christian needs to bring it up to the preacher and stand on God's Holy Word, no matter what anyone says.

jlizm

Somewhere years ago I read something that goes something like this; They came for the trade unionists and I said nothing becaue I wasn't a trade unionist; they came for the jews and I said nothing because I wasn't jewish; they came for the catholics and I said nothing because I wasn't catholic and then they came for me and there was no one left to spek for me. Wake up people our rights are being quietly taken from us. Are "we the people" so blind and complacent that we will allow this to happen? I hope not, if so, we are nothing but sheep and maybe we are being led to the slaughter? I know one thing I will fight for the liberties that others have have died for.

A. Terranova

The actions of both evangelical pastors is what is commonly referred to in the Book of Revelation as those ministers who are not sincere because they refuse to follow their duty. They, of course, will be dealt with accordingly by Our Lord Who speaks through his beloved disciple, St. John the Evangelist in Revelation.

Jim Furr

If a pastor is preaching the Word of God, his flock automatically know how to vote. We don't need pastors preaching politics from the pulpit.

http://profile.yahoo.com/HBZY2YUGUU2J6L2VI3LJS2XF7Q Ralph Z

Nick, I agree that Jesus will judge them for not doing their duty as Preachers, but Christians who are members of their Church should not be silent and they will be judged for being silent and not being Salt and Light. Remember, Salt preserves and stings, while light exposes what is hidden in the shadows. If the Christians in these Churches are silent and don't say a thing, then they should be reminded that they will be judged, not for their salvation but for their rewards and they will also have to answer for accepting changes that have been made to God's Holy Word. Remember Matthew 15:9; 1 Corinthians 3:11-15; 2 Corinthians 5:10; Romans 12:1,2 (KJV).

http://profile.yahoo.com/HBZY2YUGUU2J6L2VI3LJS2XF7Q Ralph Z

Jim, Preaching from the Pulpit that homosexuality is wrong and any law that promotes it or the teaching of it to our children as normal and acceptable, is not being political. Christians need to know that God will hold them responsible for their actions as well as how they vote. If they vote to promote abominations and sinful lifestyles, God does hold them accountable and a preacher should be there not only teaching his flock but also showing them what God's Holy Word says.

T.R.Minick

Unfortunately, if an organization has incorporated itself , it is no longer dealt with by the state the same. Any church that files for and receives 501(c)3 status has willingly given up their full rights to religious freedom andthe ability to speak out as they wish without fear of reprisal from the state, as it is the state which now has authority over them, and can tell them the rules under which they must operate. No longer is that church showing that Christ head of His church, but the state. You don't incorporate, you have no need to play by their rules, but only by the Word of the Living God.

Citizen

MIGHT NOT INTERVENE?................Duh!!!! No they won't. They'll choose their survival instead. We have to organize as citizens. Not wait for them.

Randy111

This is a very fine article, very thought-provoking and goes to the heart of some of our biggest governmental issues of the day. Pastor Piper's position--a religious message to his church, not a political one, is wonderfully commendable. Here's why. America is basically a Christian. The Bible, in all its forms and teachings, is the bedrock document of our society and most of its institutions. But the United States Government has a different bedrock document, the United States Constituiton. And the United States Constitution specifucally deparates Government from Religion, and protects religous expression from Governmental regulation. So while we have a "Christian" society, our Government is not a Christian Government, nor Muslim, or Jewish, or Woods Nyumph Government. Unfortunately, both liberal and conservative religous elements are currently engaged in attempting to turn our government into instruments of religion or religious agendas. Conservative Christians often oppose gay marriage, while liberals support it--both of them urging "faith based" Governmental action. Perhaps an even greater effort to "religionize" our government is occuring in the immigration battles. Supporters of more legal immigration and amnesty for the illegals in the country often give purely "Christian" reasons for their position. "God made us all. These people simply want a better life for themselves and their families. We have no right to stop them from coming here, it's the Crristian think to do." is a major tenet of supporters of illegal immigrants, and a huge cadre of religious leaders take every opportunity to expound the message. They don't seem to understand that if everyone who wants to move to the US were allowed to come here, within five years we would probably have 100,000,000 new people in our borders, and our society would rapidly descend to subsistence level for the vast majority. I applaud Reverends Piper and Anderson for rendering to Ceasar the things that are Ceasar's and to God the Things that are God's, so to speak. They are forthright disciples of Christianity, but are not attempting to change our government into an instrument of sectarian religion.

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_OGJNWURL6AWS7ITF5M3Y5ILNXI Natalie Johnson

I don't under why he doesn't want to vote on the amendment. It's FOR marriage in its correct definition. I don't understand what his issue is.

http://profile.yahoo.com/477FNR3QC2EXBUNNJFYXM3OHIQ Walter

IT IS (HOMOSEXUAL) MARRAGE. There is nothing gay about it.

daveveselenak

In the end times there will be false prophets! You decide for yourselves if that is where we are!

FrankCastle

Marriage between man and woman isn't ONLY a religious deal, it's been THE WAY, since anyone can remember. NOW, because we have some people who suffer from some sort of "genetic misfire"....the WORLD, must change to SUIT THEM??? I think they ask a bit too much, of everyone else. Granting the Marriage status.. is de facto LEGITIMIZATION, of the gay/lesbian lifestyle...Sorry, I'm not in favor of going that far.

liberty49

This is the kind of Christian leader that has brought this nation to where we are. They refuse to back up their 'private' views with the conviction of the Bible. If Christians would just vote their Christian beliefs, we might be able to prevent the trampling of our personal rights as guaranteed by our Declaration of Independence. These are rights from God, not government!

paperpushermj

“Don’t press the organization of the church or her pastors into political activism,”

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ So thats what taking action on your Beliefs is called nowadays "Political Activism". I guess their content leaving it at ....Talking the Talk

doctorsdaddy

The salt of the earth is always salty by nature.

Noah

It is in large part due to the likes of mealy-mouthed liberal "pastors" such as John Piper and Leith Anderson that many true believers recognize that the church today is essentially dead and they must get out of those four walled cemeteries and get into God's Word.

http://www.facebook.com/anita.nunn1 Anita Hallmark Nunn

THEY ARE NOT TRUE CHRISTIANS WHO CANNOT AGREE WITH GOD'S LAW THAT MARRIAGE IS BETWEEN A MAN AND A WOMAN. IF THEY CLAIM TO BE CHRISTIANS, THEY ARE NOT.

http://profile.yahoo.com/HADKEKLJD7ZYKVIJXVPQG3EJGE major

I will never belong to a church that gives our Federal Government Dictatorial Powers in the Pulpit in order not to pay taxes, by choosing this exempt status those churches have told the government you are above God.

Joy

Has anyone read the contents of John Piper's message last Sunday? I did, and the points he made right before the above-quoted comment specifically regarded whether or not this issue qualified to be made a constitutional amendment. It seemed pretty clear to me that he was on the side of the amendment.

TenneBob

Thank you, Joy... at least someone bothered to do a little research before condemning a brother who preached a message that was brilliant in virtually everything it said. The Enemy is laughing at this dissension which will keep many from even seeking out the message to read and profit from it. Shame.

The so called "evangelical pastors" who aren't willing to take a public stand against homosexuality are not "evangelical pastors" but, are wolves in sheep's clothing . How can a preacher of the Word of God not abide by what God's Word clearly teaches, that homosexuality is a sin that's condemned in the Holy Scriptures. Personal opinions mean nothing. What's important is what the Word of God says and also teaches about a particular issue. Those so called evangelical pastors should be banned from their pulpits and excluded from their churches.

midwaygrad

Seems that many people have bought into this myth of "separation of Church and State" to the point of becoming hesitant to speak out on valid issues. "Freedom of religion", not from religion or only of worship is in the constitution. Religous values are part of the bedrock of this nation and having these values is not the same as declaring a particular religion. In this context, a Christian minister is well within his rights to remind his flock of the values of their faith. Through the years, for Christians, marriage is between a man and a woman. If the people of this nation want to redefine marriage in some other way, that's their priviledge and it is also the right of one to object to such a change. As for what redeeming value there is, in redefining marriage, that, in my view, has yet to be shown. Marriage as traditionally defined and the family of a man, a woman, as husband and wife and children, has been and will always be the foundation for a prosperous and civil society.

susie s

its betw GOD & sinner. colorado is haveing lots of fires. susie

runstowin

Why should pastors speak out on political issues? They might lose their sacred IRS tax exempt status, and as we all know that is the preeminent purpose of the Christian church.

In all due respect to pastors John Piper and Leith Anderson, this is a complete lack of courage. When bibical truth is compromised for immoral culture relativism, you are heading for disaster. The next step is declaring God's word as irrelevant. Pastors John Piper and Leith Anderson failed the leadership test just like the othe 8 men that did not want to go into the promised land due to lack of conviction and courage. We need some Josha's and Caleb's not these spineless fishes.

TenneBob

No, at least Piper deserves more respect than virtually everyone here is giving him credit for. Did you listen to his message? Are you aware that the notoriously Liberal Minneapolis Tribune's article bore almost no resemblance to what he actually said? The Tribune got it wrong, and Gary got it wrong by parroting them... and I love Gary and actively promote his work, so this is not the complaint of anything other than a brother who is grieved by the unfair treatment John Piper is getting here.

TenneBob

I am exceedingly disappointed that you would take the summation of a noted Liberal newspaper as the basis of what John Piper did or did not say.

Having read and heard what Piper has written and said about the non-existence of homosexual "marriage" in both late 2011 when other States were blessing it, and here in 2012 now that it's coming for a vote in Minnesota, you have to have a total bias to read into his words that he does not support the amendment.

This is a perfect instance of "judge not lest ye be judged"... you are judging someone based upon a false report about their words, rather than their words.

Gary, you're better than this... I know you are. You need to retract how you began this piece, unfairly casting aspersion on a brother who did not say what the Minneapolis Tribune says he did. His message was probably the best and most comprehensive I've heard on this issue, making it crystal clear why Christians need to oppose the effort to redefine marriage!

And Piper's eighth and final point made it abundantly clear that he was calling for lay Christians not to sit back and expect pastors to do all the heavy lifting, but that it is our responsibility to take the spiritual food that our leaders feed us, and to get out there and apply it!!

Kudos to Piper. And grace and repentance to those who took a false report and maligned a man who stood tall for Biblical marriage.

Peace,

Bob

byronmullet

Since when does being a Christian, turn a pastor or layman or parent into a moral pacifist? CHURCH, if your pastor won't preach, get a new one...if your tax exemption is so precious, get rid of it...Silence is consent, watching is condoning...the hour is late...the cause, crucial...the church and our children wait for leadership Isaiah 56:10 Blind are his watchmen -- all of them, They have not known, All of them are dumb dogs, they are not able to bark, Dozing, lying down, loving to slumber.

AlondraV

I would like to bring the Mr. Piper & Mr. Anderson’s attention to the great statesmen & Christian theologians’ views on the issue: "Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, RELIGION AND MORALITY ARE INDISPENSABLE SUPPORTS." – GEORGE WASHINGTON (Address . . . Preparatory to His Declination, 1796, pp. 22-23)

“Our Constitution was made only FOR MORAL AND RELIGIOUS PEOPLE. It is wholly inadequate to the government OF ANY OTHER.” – JOHN ADAMS (Signer of the Declaration of Independence; One of Two Signers of the Bill of Rights; 2nd President of the United State)

“…people are responsible for the character of their Congress. If that body be ignorant, reckless, and corrupt it is BECAUSE THE PEOPLE TOLERATE IGNORANCE, RECKLESSNESS, and CORRUPTION.” – JAMES A. GARFIELD, the 20th President, a Christian minister

“[A leader should] set himself with the greatest firmness to BEAR DOWN PROFANITY AND IMMORALITY OF EVERY KIND.” – John Witherspoon, Declaration signer and President of Princeton University

“The time has come that Christians MUST VOTE FOR HONEST MEN…” – Charles Finney (A leader in the Second Great Awakening

I am agree with Thomas Watson who said: “Whoever is afraid of submitting any question, civil or religious, to the test of free discussion, is more IN LOVE WITH HIS OWN OPINION THAN WITH TRUTH.” – THOMAS WATSON, Puritan preacher and author.

Mr. Piper & Mr. Anderson’s are “IN LOVE WITH HIS OWN OPINION THAN WITH TRUTH.”

They chose to wash their hands. "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is FOR GOOD MEN TO DO NOTHING." - Edmund Burke (an Irish statesman, author, orator, political theorist and philosopher)

“SILENCE IN THE FACE OF EVIL IS ITSELF EVIL: God will not hold us guiltless. NOT TO SPEAK IS TO SPEAK. NOT TO ACT IS TO ACT.” – Dietrich Bonhoeffer (German Lutheran pastor, theologian, anti-Nazi resistant, and founding member of the Confessing Church. He was arrested in April 1943 by the Gestapo and executed for his faith 23 days before the Nazis' surrender. In his role as a theologian, his view of Christianity's role in the secular world has become very influential)

I do not understand Mr. Piper & Mr. Anderson position. I just can guess: self-righteousness (“IN LOVE WITH THEIR OWN OPINION THAN WITH TRUTH”), carelessness or cowardice. Any of them is disgraced.

We are witnessing the ignorance & arrogance toward God’s TRUTH.

bigkoala

I have never understood how it harms or threatens anyone, if 2 gay people want to get married. How does it damage my marriage, if the 2 women living next door want to marry and live as husband and wife? Does my marriage hurt them? And whose business is this, anyway? The church? The state? The neighbors? Isn't this a personal issue, between 2 people and their gods or goddesses?

KittyKittyKit

You can bet these two guys have got big skeletons in their closets so they don't want to be tooooo judgemental about others when their skeletons fall out.....but don't worry, it'll all come out sooner or later.......let see, what is it that always comes out of the closet???? hhhmmmm.....

Seeking truth

Please take the time to listen to Piper's whole sermon on http://www.desiringgod.org before you cast judgment on him. We are not to be the ones to judge, that is God's job.

AlondraV

Our job as Christians is to rebuke and expose FALSE TEACHERS and PSEUDO/FAKE Christians.

AlondraV

Mr. Piper & Mr. Anderson, you ARE NOT EVANGELISTS, you are FALSE TEACHERS:

Jesus Christ warning us: “Beware of FALSE PROPHETS, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. YOU WILL RECOGNIZE THEM BY THEIR FRUITS…Every healthy tree bears good fruits, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit…a diseased tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.” (Mt.7:15)

“I know full well that FALSE TEACHERS, like vicious wolves, will come in among you after I leave, not sparing the flock. Even some of you will DISTORT the TRUTH in order to draw a fallowing.” (Acts 20:28-30)

“But there were FALSE PROPHETS, just as there will be FALSE TEACHERS AMONG YOU, WHO WILL BRING IN DAMNABLE HERESY, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their pernicious ways (evil teaching). And because of them THE WAY of TRUTH WILL BE SLANDERED. In their greed they will MAKE UP CLEVER LIES to get hold of your money. But they are condemned long time ago, and their destruction is on the way.” (2Pet.2:1-3)

“Beloved, BELIEVE NOT EVERY SPIRIT, but try the spirits whether they are of God, because many FALSE PROPHETS are gone out into the world…If a prophet does not confess Jesus, that person is not from God. Such person has the spirit of the antichrist. You have heard that he is going to come into the world, and he is already here.” (1Jn.4:1-3)

Mr. Piper & Mr. Anderson, Examine your spirits and READ BIBLE.

AlondraV

Mr. Piper & Mr. Anderson, THIS is what BIBLE says about godless PRINCIPALITIES, POWERS and the RULERS OF the DARKNESS :

“Finally, my brethren, be strong in the LORD, and in the power of His might. Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to STAND AGAINST THE WILES OF THE DEVIL. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but AGAINST PRINCIPALITIES, AGAINST POWERS, AGAINST THE RULERS OF THE DARKNESS OF THIS WORLD, AGAINST SPIRITUAL WICKEDNESS IN HIGH PLACES. Wherefore take unto you the whole ARMOR OF GOD, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness and your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace. Above all, taking the shield of faith wherewith you shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and thee sword of the Spirit, WHICH IS THE WORD OF GOD.” (Ephesians 6:10-17)

“Therefore, to him who knows to do good AND DOES NOT DO it, to him it is sin.” (James 4:17)

“For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, Who is the head of all principality and power.” (Colossians 2:9-10)

Mr. Piper & Mr. Anderson, Examine your spirits and READ BIBLE.

Fdleupp

"...don't press the church into political activism"????? Mr. Piper - I have never considered standing up for God's own institution of marriage - a couple of years ago in Genesis!!! - as political activism; perhaps you have a different translation. So help us, God.

Lee

So the gay movement is just misunderstood and judged, they are innocent! When is the last time Christians went to the White House and gave the "finger" to a president, any president?

Rooster

Over time, Christianity ceased to be a comprehensive, world-changing religion....??? Whoever believes that has been brainwashed by the unwashed. In contrast, the whole of humanity in modern times is still every day influenced by the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Look around you and see hospitals, Christian schools and colleges and every good thing. Even the programs that have been hijacked by the government began as Christian charity. As for homosexual "marriage", there is no such thing. Call it what you want, but that does not make it so.

At risk of being overly simplistic, I look at it this way. God created Adam and Eve; a man and a woman. I obviously don't know exactly what God had in mind, but given the differences between men and women, I suspect part of his plan had something to do with producing children and ensuring future generations. Unless there has been some medical breakthrough that I am not aware of, I don't believe it is possible for a male-male or female-female union to produce offspring. Therefore, I conclude God envisioned the possibility of such unions but ensured they would be one generational!

How can there be an argument with what God has to say about marriage???????? Are these same people saying this is not a Christian Nation....are we to throw out the Bible along with the Constitution....ending up with no moral law?????? Think about it...if we ignore God on this what or who is to say, murder is ok along with the numerous other 'do nots' addressed as sin in God's Word.

Babs

I think Mr. Piper did what he is supposed to do. If the people are taught properly, they will know how to vote without having to be told. I've always appreciated this approach as I like to be treated like an adult. Mr. Anderson, on the other hand--I wonder what he is thinking. It sounds like he is scared. BTW, incidents of lack of clarity and consistency, such as these, were a large contributing factor to my conversion to Catholicism.

philipsquires

"Religious observers say the lack of formal backing from the two influential figures could signal that evangelical leaders in Minnesota are taking a less active role in supporting the amendment..."

Or could it be that they don't want their 501c3 revoked? Taking a stand on an issue, such as gay marriage, is one thing. Taking a stand on a bill or an amendment is something else. Perhaps they think that coming out in support of this amendment is the same as supporting a candidate.

WRM

Whats wrong with standing up for Gods word pastors?

Old Kute

It is time the "preachers" in the Christian Churches put God's Word above their own desire to remain tax free. It is clear in God's Word that we are to stand against sin. There is a statement (I am not sure of the author) which talks about doing nothing. I would like to put this in terms of our own nation, America. "When they came for our freedom to pray in school, I said nothing because I was not in school. When they came to abort the unwanted children, I said nothing because I was not having a baby. When thy told the Police that they had to attend classes which proselyted for Islam, I said nothing for I was not a police man. When they said the Ten Commandments could not be posted in the court house, I said nothing because I was not a judge. When they said an ungodly lifestyle could be practiced in the military, I said nothing because I was a civilian. When they said our state should accept marriage between two people of the same sex, I said nothing because I was not gay. When they came to take away my church, I cried out for help but they ignored the First Amendment and said my beliefs could not be practiced in public...... Wake up, Ye of the Cloth! God's removal of His protection on this nation is not because of the leaders. He allowed them because the Church has turned away from His Word and its people are being taught false doctrines and now wish only to hear of the blessings they can get, not of the Obedience God commands. Germany fell because the Church remained silent. America is on that same road. [Oh yes we are also to show God's LOVE for the sinner while we stand firm against the sin]

johnfromchicago

All it takes for evil to exist is for good men to do nothing. I don't understand these men. Would Jesus have hidden behind some "separation of church and state" idea? If Christians don't stand up and speak up we will be where Niemoller was when he said we did nothing about the other groups but when the Nazis came for me, there was no one left to save me. Sad

Robin Calamaio

One problem is the tax exempt status (5013c). It muzzles pastors particularly in white churches. Also there has always been this "pious strain" in Christianity where secular government is dirty. All of this is error.

Pastafarian

Yep. They need to pay taxes.

traz

It appears to me that you did not hear John Piper too clearly. His response actually does it one better. He choses to equip the church for the work of ministry. For some, that may be in a political forum. For others, standing their ground in community and neighborhood. Truth is, Jesus himself told his accusers, "My kingdom is not of this world, otherwise my disciples would be fighting." Could it be that a truly discipled, Bible knowledgable congregation could do more than activism? The US can be won to Jesus, but not at the ballot box--in the home, over the back fence, at school, at work--by the very character of Jesus lived out. That will change the atmosphere of this country. We actually do ourselves harm when we trust activism over the life-changing power of the Gospel. Have we been drawn into the debate so far that we now distrust the hand of God? Have we exchanged the primary commands of Jesus for the slightest change of an exit poll? If Christians who love God vote, we will say what is valued to us. But to do that, we need to be devoted to just what Jesus wants to produce in us. Don't shorchange that process.

Susan

what really distresses me is people like Obama and Carrie Underwood, who use their brand of "Christianity" to say they believe in gay marriage BECAUSE OF THEIR FAITH....how sick is that?!!! They apparently have NEVER picked up a Bible and read it with the understanding and leading of the Holy Spirit. Homosexuality is an abomination to God. They mock God and He will not be mocked. I pray for those who are so deceived by Satan's lies. Americans had better stand up and stand strong for Christ or we will suffer the same fall as every other nation who turned from God. Vote! America needs our Christian values to be restored and we CAN do it...through Christ ALL things are possible. We know the end times are here, but America doesn't have to be the one to vote in the 'betrayer' Politics in our faith......well, if we don't stand firm for our faith, our rights to worship will be taken from us and we'll have to go underground, like other Communist/Socialist countries have had to do. Tax exemption will be the least of our problems! God bless America and America BLESS GOD!

lilo

I just listened to Piper's sermon. You have taken his quote out of context. Without a doubt, he was preaching and instructing in a biblical manner....upholding the Gospel without compromise. Also, he used the scriptural texts as the Apostle Paul intended. There was no compromise in this sermon. He said there is no such thing as "same sex marriage" because marriage was designed by God to be a union of a man and a woman. He went on to state that homosexual desire and intercourse are sinful. I encourage you and others to listen to or watch this compelling and Christ honoring sermon. It was delivered on June 16th--last Sunday.

texas58

The Star Tribune article misrepresents these two Ministers. It is a lie to try to get some weak minded people to believe some Christians are dropping their opposition to sodomy.

quipster

For two Sundays in a row our Catholic Priest spoke up agaiinst gay marriage, it was so good to hear him talk about it. A couple weeks ago heard black evangelical pastor say he was going to vote for the baby killer obummer again, I think he was on fox news

baxtor

If Christians don't just pray ,but speak out,get involved in serving, helping Romney in some sort,not Obama the commie ,but, Romney,then we can made a landslide that was when Ronald Reagan was running for president and as when he was running for relection .If we want communism to became our form of government,then we Christians need to stay home like we did the last election,no I,but the others Christians,and we can't give up or be discourage,or we have ourselves to blame if commie Obama wins and it could have been our vote that stopped him.

JOE_FELS

Doing and saying nothing is the same as silently communicating your being ashamed of the Holy Scriptures and of Jesus who died for us and for our creator the God of Abraham Issac and Jacob......Pastors wake up your apostacey is showing remember you will stand at the Throne on judgement day...dont let your silence be your undoing......The Apostles stood strong even to the death...why have you all turned weakkneed....Just one man's opinion

http://www.facebook.com/tstanley1 Tony Stanley

"While our churches might speak out against the action of the State, they might not intervene to save us."

The same might be said about the people if the State goes after these churches. These church 'leaders' should tread carefully.

Bd-MI

For some good history background regarding Hitler and the demise of the church in Germany, I recommend that you read "Bonhoeffer: Pastor, Martyr,Prophet, Spy" by Eric Metaxas. Very intense book, but shows how through compromise of the church started the genocide of the Jews. There are lessons to be learned and can be so eerily similar to events going on today here in the US.

Raymond1

Today's Lesson!

The Food Stamp Program, administered by the U.S. Department

of Agriculture, is actually proud of the fact it is distributing the

greatest amount of Free Meals and Food Stamps ever!!!

Meanwhile, the National Park Service, administered by the

U.S. Department of the Interior, asks us to "Please Do Not

Feed the Animals."

Their stated reason for the policy is because the animals will

grow dependent on handouts and will not learn to take care

of themselves.

This ends Today's Lesson!!!

"Dallas"

Excellent description. Shines "the light of Truth" on many aspects of today's society.

vietnamvet1971

If being Gay is Evil in GOD'S Sight then how can we as Christians condone or keep quite. I do not hate gays. GOD is the one saying how he feels about the gay lifestyle in his Holy Word the Absolute Truth! I do not accept nor condone their Evil life style.

Shagnasty1

So called Christian leaders have recently been steering away from the Bible. I was once told by my former pastor that we shouldn't take the Bible literally. I guess he meant we should read into it today's lax morals and interpretations. I don't claim to live a perfect life but I know the Bible means what it says and not what I say it means. Trying to interpret some of the passages is confusing but the parts that cover the sin of homosexual acts are very explicit. Don't do it!

If persons practicing homosexuality/lesbianism are already ignoring the rule of God and Church, then why do these same psychologically/disturbed people look to the rule of God and Church to legitimaize their insanity? This proves that they are illogical and therefore insane.

samtman

Its about time that Evangelicals start minding their own business.

Mr. Incredible, in Jesus' Name

Who says?

Mr. Incredible, in Jesus' Name

What business are we minding that is none of our business?

Pastafarian

I will. Quit imposing YOUR rules on people that do not follow your supernatural mysticism.

endeavoring

I wonder what the late W.B. Riley would do on this issue. Well, not really--based on his life story, I would have little question. But we don't apparently have preachers of that caliber and courage anymore. I would encourage people to read biographical material on Riley. It's refreshing in this day we're living.

Blair

That's right. Martin Niemoeller, a German U-boat captain World War I, made the most famous quote against Nazism. Dietrich Bonhoeffer, was a German pastor who'd participated in the failed plot to kill Hitler. Why? Because he said that he couldn't stand by in good conscience and allow Hitler to ruin Germany. The last words of Klaus Schenck von Stauffenberg, the would-be assassin of Adolf Hitler, were "LONG LIVE HOLY GERMANY!" Edmund Burke said it. "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

Flayer

I don't know about Christians but Jews are commanded to live in this world, to continue to perfect it. Judaism requires action which follows from thought. This is why many of our blessings ask that we use our talents, hands, heads, hearts, food consumed for good, etc.

People often confuse "legal" with "right" or "good." The two aren't always the same. I remember a case in Nevada in which a man knew his buddy was in the process of raping and killing a little girl in the bathroom of a casino. He did not call attention to this to the nearby security guard. He was found "innocent' because the laws do not require him to act. (Later, Berkeley offered him a scholarship.) Morally, of course, most of know that this is not only wrong but that we are COMPELLED morally to act. This is why we must ALWAYS have a higher law and not rely on secular law which is amoral at times (hopefully not). Is this what Progressives call "legislating morality?" I certainly hope we do.

Crashaxe

"he does not plan to take a public side on the amendment, which would change the state Constitution to define marriage as a union between a man and a woman.” This is EXACTLY WHATS WRONG! These pastors are afraid and in fear from the government because they are bound by there 501C3 to put the government above God. All they need to do is disavow there 501C3 and start using the guarantee of the Constitution. Let me tell you a story about a little church in Las Vegas that had a 501C3 and placed a legal sized billboard displaying the Ten Commandments in there front yard and the county told them to take it down. Long story short, this church in question DISAVOWED THERE 501C3 and the County no longer has a right to tell them what to do and the Ten Commandments stand there today.

The totalitarian state needs to butt out of marriage altogether. Why does anyone have to get a "license", get government permission and pay a fee to get married? Marriage is between a man, a woman and God and the totalitarian government needs to butt out. As far as "gay marriage" goes, the "marriage" cannot be consummated and therefore does not exist. The whole idea is quite insane. Is America doomed to be another Sodom and Gomorrah?

aurora9

If these Evangelicals don't take a stand on this issue, like the Catholic Church has, they will be allowing evil to overtake our religion and our nation!

CARLjr

Start your own party. Evangelicals won't vote for a Mormon.

nursepat

The back story is that with the new pc and antidefamation laws these men are afraid to be charged with hate-mongering because they express disapproval of the lifestyle. The one thing they should remember is that Jesus said that if you deny me before men, then I will deny you before the Father. I would rather end up in jail and tell the truth than to bow to the evil of this world for a season. That is the key "a season" is nothing in comparison to eternity. That is a LONG time to be in torment in hell. Maybe they choose not to believe in hell, but just because you don't believe in the law of gravity doesn't mean it isn't still active.

JennieWalsh

Is anyone getting tired of the totalitarian federal government micromanaging their lives? Vote Libertarian, Gary Johnson for president and restore freedom and sanity to America. Gary Johnson is a well loved and capable, experienced, intelligent, 2 term governor of New Mexico who has the same plans and policies of restoring constitutional government to America as Ron Paul. He will be on the ballot. I would love to see a REPEAL president and a REPEAL congress to repeal all of the evil and UNconstitutional so-called "laws" and "amendments" that are destroying America and allowing the stealing of the wealth of the people. Not only do taxes and spending need to be drastically reduced, but the size and scope of the governmental bureaucracies need to be cut way down. The government bureaucracy is so HUGE that the right hand does not know what the left hand is doing and therefore, GRAND THEFT on the part of corrupt and evil politicians and bureaucrats is RAMPANT. It is high time for another American Revolution to overthrow the bankster-gangsters who are running both the Democrat and Republican Parties. These global criminals do not care which of their puppet candidates gets elected. With Obama, everyone will be an impoverished slave to the global elite's communist system. With Romney, the war-mongering globalists will get their much desired World War lll which they will use to weaken and impoverish all nations involved so as to gain power and control over the nations. The globalists' goal is a one world totalitarian, Satanic, military, police-state dictatorship and war serves their purpose very well. The globalists' military industrial complex will make trillion$ selling armaments to all sides in the war. Do the American people want to be free or are the American people "useful idiots" as the globalists call the "liberals" who want and promote communist/socialist government programs? See: Yuri Bezminov KGB U Tube and watch his videos for an expose' on the plots, plans, conspiracies, tactics of the secret servants of Satan who have every intention of ruling the world and owning and controlling everyone on earth.

MMort

My great grandfather, a Methodist minister that was a "circuit riding preacher" for people who did not have the good fortune to have a church- certainly would turn over in his grave if he could hear such nonsense in todays church. We are a part of this world in word, thought and deed. Our trying to keep from being "involved" with politics has gotten us to this Godless situation. Maybe it's the pocketbooks of these theologians that matters most. God certainly must see this as a spineless generation of so called Christians.

DonnaTee

I wouldn't go to a church if the pastor approved of gay marriage. I know 100% where my pastor stands on it. Any pastor who is for it should be relieved of his duties by God and his congregation. Only 2 1/2% of the citizens in the United States are gay. Makes you wonder where are the ones who are pushing so hard for this amendment. ??

ConservaDave

"Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves." -Matthew 10:16 "I pray not that Thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that Thou shouldest keep them from the evil." -John 17;15 John the Baptist lost his head opposing the most corrupt evil politician of his day, King Herod. Would to God that his sacrifice could be an example to those non-commital "pastors" of today. "Having a form of godliness, but denying the the power thereof: from such turn away." 2Tim3:5

jerry1944

What did they do just stop trying top get ppl to GOD It says they are suppose to try and not just give up. But it sounds like they turned there back on God like Peter did

Lois MacLaren

Maybe it is time for more of America's religious leaders to re-read II John 1: If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed. For he who bids him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.II John 1:10-11

Mr. Incredible, in Jesus' Name

So, merely supporting shame-sex marriage puts me at odds with God.

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_JCAQGWJ43XLXNIS44H4BB7BQCQ Tom

I thank GOD that I have been led to a church where the pastor is not afraid to stand up for marriage as God defined it and speak against the sin of homosexuality using the Holy Bible as his reference! There are far too many churches in America today preaching watered-down Gospel and kow-towing to political correctness. As Christians, we need to seek out God's truth, not man's (faulty) interpretation.

"Dallas"

It's as simple as, quote: " If you do not acknowledge ME before man, I will not acknowledge YOU before My Father. unquote. I believe "acknowledge ME" applies to not only Him in name, but ALL that He professes.

Diana

The whole agenda on homosexual rights isn't even about them, its about losing more of our liberties and religious freedom. Its an attack on Christianity in an attempt to be rid of us once and for all by maligning Christians, falsely labeling us as haters and bigots. Of course we know who are real enemy is. The homosexual agenda will bring much persecution to Christians in the near future (already beginning). It is past time to stand up for our faith and the truth and we cannot wait for all the lukewarm churches to do it for us. The churches sold out long ago with the tax exempt status and became unequally yoked with the government and became a corporation instead of a church.

pbrown85355

There is no such thing as same sex marriage. Not now, not ever. It doesn't matter what the president and his butt buddies think or want, it's just wrong.

The Hammer

These two ministers are cowards! If you want to see real leadership, just turn to Archbishop John Nienstedt. He has taken the real leadership in this issue and doesn't care if the bullseye is on him. His only mission is to tell the truth and stand up for what is right and what the Church teaches. We should admire him for standing up for the truth fearlessly!

gomer

and pastor wonder why churches are falling apart.

TenneBob

If the Minneapolis Tribune wrote that Gary DeMar is a pedophile, would you believe it? If this noted Liberal paper said that Joel McDurmon was an adulterer, would you savage Joel for it?

Then why in God's name do you simply accept what they said about John Piper?? Many of you should be ashamed for playing Satan's assistant and accusing a brother without evidence. The Enemy and the Tribune don't want you to hear Piper's real message because it was a brilliant defense of Biblical marriage. I listened, and it is awesome.

The Tribune's article does not accurately reflect what Piper said, nor his position on the amendment. Do some research before you write so many cruel and vicious lies... please!! DesiringGod.org has all of Piper's messages--FREE (so much for all the accusations about money-grubbing!). For the love of God, please make sure you have your facts straight before you pop off.

If the light within you is darkness...

God have mercy on us all.

Vony

America's moral decline is a spiritual problem, not a political one, and its solution is the gospel, not partisan politics.

http://www.facebook.com/xgaygreghaislip Xgay Greg

I used to be gay, but over 6 years ago Jesus set me FREE! That's the name of my video﻿ on you tube. Also I've been married﻿ to a beautiful woman for over 18 months who is﻿ now pregnant. GOD CAN DO ANYTHING! I am no longer a slave to the sin of homosexuality, HALLELUJAH!! Lord save President Obama.