We've been working hard for several months on planning a video podcast which we believe marketers will love. It's been hard work and a steep learning curve but we are delighted that today we are releasing the first episode. The new show, Inbound After Hours, is a weekly show where we talk about inbound marketing (with a pint after work) and share our experience.

So, here we go...

Ever been frustrated by blogging? Everyone is talking about it but you can't understand why you aren't getting the results you need from it, then this show is for you. Hear our experts give their opinion on all things blogging to help you clarify exactly what you need to be doing.

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Show notes and resources mentioned in this episode:

Hey guys, welcome to Inbound After Hours Episode One. Today we have our wonderful team with us, we have Rikki, we have Andrew, we have Paul and we have James over looking after our cameras.

Okay then let's go straight in and talk industry news. Rikki, do you wanna start us off?

Yeah well last night in bed, watching videos, as always on Facebook, one of the ones that really jumped out to me was a Gary V video. He proclaimed that by 2019, 80% of content we consume online will be in video or audio format, unwritten formats if you like. I thought that was a really upstart with what we've got to talk about today and also just a really interesting topic that's got me thinking, so I just wanted to know what you guys thought about that.

I think you're right Rikki, I mean, as you know we come back from Inbound in November, and the entire three, four days was video content. Everyone said, do video.

Make sure it's repurposed through transcripting or writing a blog about the video. As you know Google can't actually read the videos is that correct.

Yeah, they can't read video files, get the gist of what it's talking about and then show that up to a user in search. They rely on meta data, it's the title tags, descriptions, actual tags. A bit like SEO was 10 years ago really.

When it's written, you can skim quite quick and see if you wanna go ahead and read it properly. So I think there's still a place for both video and written content. We've done our Inbound Answered and done a written version of what you've said underneath.

I mean my key takeaways, we're obviously going through a huge change, in media at the moment, i won't be the only person consuming videos in bed at night, most people, probably in our industry, will be doing things like that, if you look at people walking down the street, people sat in bars and restaurants, most people are watching or looking at something visually, we're in that step change away from written content, which was the big step up and the big win 10 years ago, people moving into written content, even five years ago, you were ahead of everybody, now you're not.

Technology is picking up as well isn't it, and it's so easy to do, and I think you know the written aspect has been the whole gunning ranking and that whole thing, and now video is obviously intersecting that with social media and stuff like that, it's that quick win isn't it, of getting that out, the reach, on social through video, Facebook, that's all, your news feeds filled with nowadays, isn't it, it's just video, imagery, so it's sort of, you still need the text below, but that's the quick win.

I think the other point is the way people discover and find content is changing, to adapt to the media, so, written content works extremely well for SEO, it works for people searching on Google but, a lot of people today aren't, that's why they aren't starting the journeys there anymore, a lot of people are starting on Facebook, YouTube, Snapchat, Instagram.

They choose the second biggest search engine (YouTube). Yeah exactly, and it caused people to, plus these are the prime mediums for people now, you've got to be on video to be on these channels, or to do particularly well on those channels.

Because it's as easy to watch a 10 minute video on your phone in 1080p, as it is to search for article on your phone on your screen, whereas five years ago, that wasn't the case, you had to pay loads of data charges and whatever, and now it's just as easy, so it's obvious that we're lazy, we're a lazy race you know you're gonna go for that ease, and the quick answer which is video.

But I think for marketers, particularly people like us the guys listening, it's just a kick up the ass to make sure I get on and do these things, to make sure I'm not left behind, and investing the time now, in things like what we're doing here, video strategies, audio strategies, they're gonna get you ahead in the long game, and just being aware that that change is common, and preparing for it.

There's still a place for written content though, if you're looking say for instructions, or like a cooking recipe, every cooking programme on television will send you to the website where you can read the written recipe. And I think that if Rikki came in tomorrow and said, we're not blogging anymore we're just doing videos every week, when you click on blog on our website, it's just gonna be videos, I wouldn't be confident we're gonna get that same amount of leads and interaction through, we wouldn't, we just wouldn't, but it's about adding it into the mix isn't it, you have a healthy written strategy, with your downloads, your workflows, your inbound essentials, video is now common as that differentiator, and the attention grabber, it doesn't have to be a big video, 30 seconds, and that could bring someone to a page, to a blog, they might end up then downloading the ebook and doing all the normal stuff but it is bringing people in at that first point and sort of standing out is where video helps.

So what you're saying for kind of busy marketers, is keep writing and do the videos on the top- - Just do everything, do more and it's really easy.

There's a middle ground as well and I agree with everything you're saying and I'm one of them people who watch videos in bed, I watch game video in bed, similar to you, I'm a geek like yourself Rikki, and I also think there's that middle ground, audio, such as the podcast, now you get your content and your video, and I put a hell of a lot of drive into visiting clients, and I'm always listening to audiobooks, always.

That's the beauty isn't it, of recording something like this, you know we're gonna do, we'll have it advertised in audio for commuters, I commute for six years, in previous roles and I've listened to that much, you know, music, podcasts and everything.

And that sort of grey market of people having videos on in the background, not actually watching while listening, where the audio aside I don't think can be underestimated really, jumping straight from written to video, there's that middle ground that you said in the audio.

Today's topic is on blogging, it is not video, we will be doing episodes on video and more on audio, but today let's start with content, so yep, blogging, so we've had loads of questions and we tried to filter these out into four sections, hopefully you guys can help me answer some of these, let's talk frequency, no, let's talk length.

Let's talk then, how long should blogs be?

This is our most asked question, how long should they be? - Long enough.

Long enough? - Yeah. - The bigger the better. - Answer the question, and then the right amount should be natural to it, answer the searchers query, that's it in a nutshell.

I think in an ideal world yeah, you should just be able to answer the question, that should be good enough for your strategy, I think if your strategies SEO reliance which is my background, length actually matters, and even though it feels like your, I think if you feel like your fluffing out on the subject, you're doing it wrong,

I think the way to think about it is if you've, if you're trying to answer the question, answer all of the queries the user might have around that question in the same piece, to make it longer and more attractive. What they want is the user to type in a query, them to go to a link, and them to be satisfied that they've got the answer there, what's a negative to signal to them is someone pogo sticking so going in, clicking the link, that's the answer, they're going out, that's the answer, they're going out, that's the answer, they're going out. 'Cause they know they've got a bad search that pulled up the wrong results, so length matters when it comes to an SEO.

Quality as well is where I was going, that's where I'm coming from. - Yeah exactly. - Unfortunately there isn't an easy, like cheat-y way of it, like a longer post it has to be high quality because you have written more useful stuff, you need to aim, you can push yourself to 1000 words, but the one that's 2000 is actually better, because it's got more answers in it than google, they know what they're talking about, and they're gonna run higher interests, I don't know what you think about things like rich snippets, and answer boxes where we know there is bits of formatting and things you can do that are gonna get you in there, whether you've got, if you work blogs the first ten, on page one might have in it, but if you do tweak it, you might have a bit of a shorter one, but they do get in that answer box because they answer it quicker.

When we've got like a mid demand authority, average demand authority for a website asks whatever on their website, on their blog I'm thinking of that's got in the answer box, it's answered it very quickly, short, in a short amount of words, that has gone in the answer box.

It has to fit in. - Yeah, and we've done the tricks like you say, number this, blah blah blah. And then underneath that we've got a deep dive answer, I don't think it's that incidence that 1200 words in the full blog, it can be answered in 50-

He's looking at his page one answers first, which are the 1200 worders, so he's going off those long ones, which one answers it quicker, alright I'll bang that at the top, so I think you need to have it long enough to even be in the running for the, all of extra stuff. - It comes in stages then doesn't it? - I know we've moved a little bit onto SEO, but the lines between SEO and user experience are completely blurs, and this is another case of that, what they're looking for is a blog that's laid out for how readers want to consume content today, so if they want, you know the answer quickly, they want the list formatted, they want the blog properly formatted because most people don't actually read blogs, they skim read them, so they need to be formatted, and put into, laid out in a proper way, and if you do that, you're ticking every box, you're giving them the answer, you've laid it out in a way that works for them, you've got the length and deep dive for those who want it on specific topics, and I think that's what works, but tying it back to the answer, the longer the better, but look at our blogs, we average 1500 words, our top blogs are all 3k words plus. - But it can't be awful. - No it's quality, formatted as well.

That's the answer I guess the listeners want to hear Rikki so okay good.

Let's talk about frequency then. How many times should we be blogging? It is daily, twice a day, three times a day, once a month?

Right, where to start, I think you've got to look at it with, what resources do you have available, it's great to say if we could all blog 10 times a day, I'm sure we would do, if it was easy and we could click our fingers it'd be awesome, we can't so you've got to look internally, who's available to write, how can we answer peoples pain points and questions, and get the most bankroll in from this blogging that we're doing, ideally you're blogging every week at a minimum, definitely.

Ithink that's the minimum entry point now for inbound, is once a week. - And that's compound SEO every six months before you start to run you need that, social media, you need something to share, sharing third party news everyday is not gonna cut it, becoming a thought leader people won't, you know they need to pick up your name, you need to be regularly commenting on things, and yeah going back to SEO, you know, minimum I'd say twice a week, as a starting point if you're gonna bother, I'd do it twice a week, and then work your way up from there based on who's available to write, if you can blog everyday, you're gonna quickly overtake your industry.

That's okay, the market catching up, a couple of years ago, three, four, five years ago you could have blogged once a week, probably once a month comfortably and being the thought leader in your industry, and now everybody's doing it, everyone's trying to do it, you've got to cancel out that noise, that's why frequency is more important, and again going back to data more is better, but Andrew is obviously countered that with a sensible point that more is better but with your resources you have available.

We did that didn't we, one blog a day for a month, seven blogs a week for a month, we ended up getting twice as many- - We got twice as many customers, 50% more views, it was a huge success for us, so yeah I mean that was a great learning for us and something we carried on through because the results were so good. - But yeah I think it's just, don't worry if you don't think your industry is right for blogging, you don't think anyone else is doing it because, ignore that, because we know what everyone is searching, everybody is looking for answers, so if you can carry on writing, you're gonna quickly take over.

We'll link to it in the show notes, but there's a lot of big studies, Moz and his writers from Hubspot, which show what frequency does, they're a little bit out of context with real companies like us and most of the people watching where a slow blog for them is 11 blogs a day, a high day for them is 30 but they're out of context, but what they show is that frequency matters and frequency brings results which is why we did the test positively, we wanted to see how does that work and does that scale for real businesses, it does, and again we'll put that in the show notes as well.

Andrew mentioned resources, it took, when we did it we had two writers, two full time writers, and probably 1.5 writers working on that task, And it attracted attention from other work, so it probably was too much wasn't it, to do forever, but it did bring the results so you've got to balance that, is it worth it actually, 'cause

We actually if I remember right, we did some kind of a schedule guide, is that right? - So a schedule guide is for publishing, so what we do is one the day we write a piece, and we publish it, we publish it live on all of our social media accounts, Twitter, LinkedIn, Facebook, Google+ we still do for some reason- - Works. - But maybe we're the only ones still posting in that, so we've just got this huge sort of market share, and then we'll republish out again, on the networks depending on what's an acceptable frequency so Twitter more often, Linkedin less often, and that works for bringing traffic into those blogs, when we're pumping out 30 a day in that test, that was a lot of social noise, and not 30 a day, 30 a month. 30 a day would be a lot of searching. - Oh right, 30 a day.

There's a lot of social noise which is good, and we got our social media stats up it was driving more visitors and more traffic as well. - Watch the Hubspot video from last week, the social media lady at Hubspot did a video conference, and she was talking about social frequency at one point, and she was saying attention spans on social, or even shows as you can imagine, so in a way don't be afraid of posting that little bit more, but what interestingly she did still go to the same guidelines that we follow, on schedule, on Facebook, Linkedin, which was about once a day, someone asked question of once a day on Facebook, is that enough for a business, should you do any more? And she said like, she scurried around it and gave it a bit of a diplomatic answer but basically yeah once a day on Facebook and just go for it on Twitter. - Yeah exactly it's a numbers game Twitter, isn't it? Definitely.

My next question which is traffic, how can you get people to your blog, is there anything else, we can be doing?

We touched on a couple haven't we, I mean, the interesting one that Andrew starting talking up was the rich snippets wasn't it, which was give us- - SEO 2.0 for the last couple of years we've got these extra things that Google has given us, sort of look good on page one so, organic is the obvious one but then, there's this extra tier you can format your page in a certain way, Google will show that, as a better answer, it will put it above number one, and it will often show an image and a bit more about that actual page, the typical one is like a recipe, you've probably got a rich snippet for a recipe for like a cake or something. - [Rikki] There's a page of them. - Yeah, you can do, and you may think, okay well they've given that answer, five bullet points you know, how to do this thing, no one's gonna click through, they're gonna get the answer in the search results I think that's one of the big worries, when Google released this, and we found the absolute opposite, people always click through, they get the answer but it's human nature, they think they might be missing out on a bit of extra something or other.

Well yeah I'll check it out and like, you want some more sort of authoritative than you being put in this formatted box by Google is like bang, like it's got big bunches in it, and you're not interested anymore so, you'll get all the traffic, and like.

You've got to get SEO, like first off, to get on page one haven't you? - Yeah you've got to be hovering above position five to even be considered haven't you?

Then you've got the little recipes for it, as you mentioned- - You can rank four or three, and be in the rich snippet as well, which is quite good for something you know, you never got around to number one. The news site gets first. - If you think about it, there's very few things you can answer in that box, and the common ones are, like you say recipes and stuff but when most of the things that are in those rich snippets they're just normal answers, so when we've got in this, how much does ad words cost, okay we've written an answer, it's one sentence, say it's average cost is 80p or whatever it is, well that's not anymore but you know what I mean, but there's actually a real proper answer behind that but it depends on what the budget is, who your target is, and so, that doesn't actually answer the question, it just gives them an indication. - They do add an ellipsis don't they, like the answer is this, ... , and it just leads you to click, what am I missing out on? So I'll click, that's a great traffic driver.

I think a good 75% of questions people will ask will lead to that deeper dive, the only people that won't be clicking through is I don't know, when was George Washington born, an there's an answer, and it's that, and that's the end of the story. - The question everyone's gonna actually be asking who's watching this is like well how do I do that, it's all well or good in saying it's great but how on earth do I do it, and it just goes back to what we started this podcast with, which is quality, a bit of know-how, because we'll put some blogs in the show notes, like how to do it you know we've done guides on this before, you know don't rely on the technical bits too much, because we've had things when the rich snippets which we didn't try to do that, we just obviously wrote a great blog, it answered the question naturally, and Google did the rest, so don't worry too much about being a marketing expert and knowing about code and all this or the other, just focus on again, value, decent length, answering the question, in a nice package, and you will get some in there.

When you watch any of the Google read to think with Google or watch any of the video presentations they do, and they just say on it whenever there's an update, look everyone asks this, what's the secret, what's this? And just give the best quality comment- - Like Google, do what it wants to do , like Google is desperate, everyone just write naturally and we'll figure out as SEO's and marketers we try and cut corners, and you can, but Google will always want you to just- - Being a huge red herring of the inbound industry is content is king, I wish no one had ever said that because people just think I can buy a website, I can write a blog I can do what I want, and if it's great they'll find it, 'cause nothing could be further from the truth, if you've got the domain authority born, which is what you start with when you buy a new website, and you write the best blog on earth, unless you're the only one writing about all that, or unless it's really niche and there's not even 10 people writing about it so you're gonna be ranked 10th anyway, nothing can be further from the truth you need good SEO, which can be basic and easy but it's not a technical thing, you need a strategy. You can't just release great content, I wish we could.

Content is king in time I'd say, you cannot, there's no quick wins, it'll be years, if you don't put a strategy in any technicals of import, but let's just say you wrote the best stuff ever, you genuinely did, it's still gonna take you a couple of years, before you get those- - Even if you wrote the best stuff ever and you didn't do any SEO and you didn't share it socially no one ever heard about you, I think content is king, but once you've done your foundational work. - I would say content needs to be golden, but also do the SEO-

Just do everything, and you'll do more, chuck a video on top- - What about viral, I know the blog we did on coffee, what was that blog called, do you remember?

No one gives a shit how many cups of coffee that you choose to drink. - Yeah and do you want to explain to the viewers how that went and what it was about, it was a great- - So just a bit of an off, Doing a lot of competitor research, I was just seeing this stat all of the time, like we drink 10 coffees a day, through to a hundred thousand a day, or whatever they were, and I think it becomes so frequent that people have baked it into templates of websites, so you have this coffee stat thing that you have to fill in, and credit to the guy who did it first 'cause it's a quirky thing, it's good to show personality- - You just love coffee. - You love coffee, and it's good for him to let people know, but it's when everybody adopts it- I know, poor guy, everyone stole his idea, and rolled it out so, I wrote a piece on inbound.org about this which is a community for people doing inbound and there's a lot of agencies on that, but I think writing in terms of why it went viral and why it got that many views and comments is because it was in the right place, inbound is that community for that type of person.

Quite niche in the grand scheme of things, it is. - Very niche yeah, no exactly. And it was a motive, like putting a swear word doesn't hurt a little bit does it these days, and people who were reading it would have done it, and they've got a comment on that, which- - Or seen it. - Or seen it, and it is a genuine trend, and I think the people will have noticed it. - It did resonate with some of the people across, like you gave a few examples, and you were putting it out on Facebook, or generically out on search you're putting it into a couple of thousand techy inbound marketers who are just ready to hear it, and he's just like, light switched on.

Yeah it was great, 'cause everyone was commenting, and some people get offended, What about the office plant or the office dog, and everyone started going, I think we have an office plant in our about page and we removed it- - There's a woman saying I've got to take my dog off my website now and I just felt awful, I'm like so sorry like- - Giving it away, get rid of the dog. - Yeah don't do that just 'cause I said that! - And it just fueled itself then, and people start commenting and begins the actual learning- - And that's the beauty to it, this is at a few hundred comments, and you automatically think that's worth reading, and I'm gonna comment on it, and it just goes from there doesn't it? - Which again brings more revenues. - And being the key to all of that is knowing your persona, knowing your audience that you're writing to, because if you can genuinely resonate with people, there's nothing better is there.

And again, just very quickly like, not to forgo the technicals of what we've just been talking about, but if you're in a random industry, construction or whatever it is, the stuff that could go viral is the stuff that's gonna come easiest to you to write about, because it's a sort of, you know, and only you know, or the people that do what you do know, so with blogging sometimes you think, I need to bring in all of these new people, these new customers who have never heard of me, and yes you do do that, and that's why we blog but, topic wise, just think about the stuff you're talking about in your office and the stuff that you're struggling with today, because that's the stuff that eventually, someones gonna pick a poor guy on social, and they're gonna share it- - 'Cause they have it on his podcast too.

Yeah, we're trying to talk about stuff that, we know you're struggling with 'cause we have to at one point- - What customers are telling us of. - Yeah it's the question that comes back to us so, your niche is big enough, just remember that, you know that's why your company has been set up because there are enough customers out there, that you don't have to try to get the people off the street, just speak to the people in construction and you're good to go. - Yeah exactly. - There's blogs and tips out there and recipes, of what makes a post go viral, which I think are good to follow, but you should never hope to go viral, I think that's the most ridiculous thing- - [Andrew] You'll be let down I think..

They're all just good things that make people read, and engage and chat, and that's all that's gonna do is bring up your chat figures a motive title, it resonates with people, and then it's entertaining to read, in a way that pisses you off, 'cause I don't give a shit- - [Rikki] That was coffee. - Or I think like yeah may as well- - I think it's a good point on blogging in general, really, that if you can do that you'll get success. -

Okay so we got the length, we got the frequency, we got the traffic, what do I blog? What's the rules to convey, what's the best way to convert, so we can get leads, get their email address?

So yeah there's obviously a few ways, hopefully if you're listening to the podcast you know the basics but if not, we abide by the sort of inbound methodology, we use a lot of internal links in blogs, CTA's is the big one, we create content that links to the articles we're writing, so we always want to answer the question, but then also have a next step, so if somebody's here searching for a solution to the problem, by in large we want to be able to get them to that end point, and for us that's doing their marketing, and helping them generate leads before the people, it could be purchasing a product or whatever that is, so the blog should be that first touch point, and you should give them every opportunity to carry on on your website and move to that next bit, next phase- - Next bit of their journey, you know?

And the obvious one is, you know, a download, a guide, or whatever it is but it could be another blog, or it could be a video, you want really something where they're gonna have to give you a bit of something to get something slightly more premium than what you've just read, so it's usually blog, you know, 800 words whatever it is, you have the three top ones, but then a guide that has 50 or 100 or like the full scope thing to really add, 'cause I have to give you my email and I'm not gonna do that unless I'm gonna get something way more than I get off of social media, so that's really how we covered it.

The ideal scenario is that each blog would have it's own natural next step, and you'd hear about the blog, and then you'd write the content piece which is the next step for that, that's a hell of a lot of work, if you're pumping out a blog a day that's a content piece a day, and that's where the challenges fall in converting blogs, it's find that right balance between how many really relevant downloads can I create, that will naturally fall on from the blogs, and a couple of strategies that we've tried, and I guess everyone starts this way, is when you do your very very first content piece, it tends to be something quite top level and generic, because it ties into every sort of blog loosely, and then what you can do, is leave that running for a bit of time, and find out which blogs get traction, if they're getting hundreds of views, thousands of views, what's ever good for your industry, you can then go into that blog and make it CTA and make a download for that blog, because it deserves it, because it's got enough traffic- And that gives the best conversion rate, obviously the other part of the question is not just the relevancy of the offer, it's where the offer is, and we've tried a lot haven't we?

I mean the standard one is get to the bottom of the blog, there's a CTA for the next step, that works well, well enough, to get leads, and you're gonna get varying conversion rates, between 0.1% and up to 9% if your offer was really relevant and great, but what you can do is test placements, and we've done quite a bit of this recently haven't we? - Yeah so we've got one blog, the one we mentioned earlier likely to announce- we've then put a slim CTA, to a relevant guide, check that area, or carry on reading- - Right at the start of the piece- - Yeah. - Not actually convert to the bottom one. - I think that if your post is- I think like if your post, if you've written a blog that's 2000 words, 3000 words, most people aren't gonna get through that, they're not gonna actually get to that CTA, in theory, so if they're scrolling, the five scrolls on mobile, if they haven't seen a CTA by that point, they're gonna go, so you can afford to, when they're really long, chuck a slim one in, or a full one- - Naturally text link as well- - Yeah yeah natural text link- - Which is also on the pop up CTAs I know we tried that.

Personally, I don't like them, I'll just say that on the websites like, if I'm trying to get off and it stops me with a pop up, or the worst way is when you land on a blog or a website and it goes bang, sign up to our newsletter, or, I don't know what you've written yet, it might be crap, it might be good, so give me a chance, like I know we've tested it, and like we're having a go at placements, what we've done is very subtle, and it's like, it'll just come up in the comments, it's not gonna stop you from going anywhere else. - Stats say they work- - Stats say they work under obsent yeah and there's reasons why but- - Forbes actually, oh its insane, Forbes actually you get on it starts counting down from 12 until you can read the blog, like 12 seconds to read the blog, plus you want to read another- - When you say a page load speed of five seconds is slow- - And traffic must be so high that that's fine, crazy. - They rank for everything. - You know it's gonna be decent, it looks decent, you lose that experience when you wait 12 seconds. - And normally it's, you're not even waiting for a sign, you're waiting 'cause you wanna see, there's another- This is so annoying but yeah no- - I did buy a jug from you though- - They got 60 grand off that pull. - Worthwhile, otherwise pretty good.

But yeah no Paul's right, every stat you read says pop ups work, we don't massively believe in it, I don't use them personally, which means in our persona the people we're targeting are similar to us, so we think don't know them, so we don't use them, the one that we use is a very subtle pop up from the right corner, which is not an overlay pop up, do you want more marketing tips in your inbox, sign up here, gets us like about .2% sign up rate, on top of the current that doesn't kind of cannibalise sign up rates, so it's really worth it for us, and the other one which works okay is the right side bar, if you have right side on your blog, having a CTA in there, those tend to be pretty generic.

That's just right there isn't it, just set there. - It's not an overlay or a pop up, again they tend to add that extra plain something to scent on, which doesn't cannibalise your other links and your other CTAs so it's worth having, so think about multiple CTA placements- - It's just about your persona isn't it, if you think, of all the different personas out there, even just an age demographic, and generations, if you think how much time we spend on websites and how familiar we are with these pop ups, my Dad thinks they are just- Do you not want to learn more? Of course I do! - Probably the worst was the big green button and the tiny red one, like would you like to save money, no thanks, or of course I do. - I want to keep spending more money.

I think as well we're all bitter cynical marketers that look at this all day, I hate pop ups I hate marketing, whatever, but, the normal person on an e-commerce website if something pops up halfway scroll through, they're probably gonna sign up, they're probably gonna access that voucher code by giving their email, so it makes sense, you know, and we've got e-commerce clients that we encourage, because it's the right persona to do that for, cynical marketers no- - Comes back to the golden rule of testing, test, if you think something could work, test it, find out, don't just rely on your assumptions, go and do a test and you'll know for sure.

Another good answer guys, okay and that's it, time up this week guys, thank you very much, thanks a lot.

Next week we'll be doing social media ads, if you've got any questions please pop in the comments boxes also we really appreciate your feedback, anything you can do to help us improve, please fire that.

Don't forget to check out the show notes, we'll put loads of really cool stuff in there, information, you guys are, and we'll see you next week, take care, thank you very much.

Thanks so much for joining us this week.

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