Wolfie wrote:
I realize that just being a mod or admin carries with it a little more clout in everyday conversations, but we're also users who like to join in on the conversations. In most instances, a small nudge like that is something I would write even if I wasn't a mod/admin and was just a user. CooksACarrot is pretty good at trying to step in and be a mod without actually being one. Just one of the guys looking out for the others.

Thanks for that, you couldn't get me to do your job if you paid me. I do think that the Mods in this forum work much, much harder than people realize to not formally warn or punish people or use the various tools at your disposal. Unfortunately, some people (and I am in no way naming ANY names, or pointing at anybody specifically) either choose to use that to their advantage, or perceive the minimal intervention you do use as heavy handed because they do not understand how much more you could do to silence them.

Mods do have authority, yes, but they are also people. When they speak outside of Mod Voice, that is an invitation to realize that the way you are conducting yourself is inappropriate or damaging to yourself or others, and to correct how you are going about things. There is always a way to carry yourself that maintains this place as welcoming and accepting, no matter what the topic. The goal should be to provoke thought, not rage or tears.

If you really think that a Mod is being inappropriate, or misunderstanding or misrepresenting what you have said, the appropriate response is to PM them and explain yourself or make them understand how you feel about their actions. Treat them like a person, with respect and understanding. They have a lot of work to do, and a lot of threads to follow, and it is a volunteer position. Sometimes they will make mistakes, or misunderstand you. Give them a chance to apologize and correct themselves, just as you would want from them before they deploy the banhammer. If you do not feel satisfied by that, talk to another Mod. Do not call them out in open on the forum. That is simply an invitation to formal reprimand.

CAC, you are proving my point. You are eloquent, loquacious, and to the point... like a Mod. Just without the fancy colored name and title.

Just piping in here to say this: when I wasn't a mod, I spoke exactly the same. Just without ever using a tone like I do when I use a mod-voice (which I think of as my teacher voice......). Which would include pointing out if things were getting heated.

And if I had to choose between being a mod or being able to participate in conversations (even heated ones)... I'd choose to not be a mod. Which I think would be the choice of all of the mods. And then this place would go to insanity. We're users first, just ones who get criticized a lot more often for being human. And, like the example of police officers... we do watch what we say. There are loads of things I've wanted to say and then don't because I figure it'd come across reallllly badly. So I don't and might have a rant privately with someone to blow off some steam. (again... just like I do when I'm teaching! haha..)

Also: I really like the tone of this part of the conversation. I like the respect!!

I completely agree with Lingrem. If I had to choose to be a Mod and never participate in general conversations or be a user... I'd also go back to being a user. I love that this forum is open enough that the mods and admins can pal around with everyone and only have to step up as Mod's when necessary.

You either die Chaotic, or you live long enough to see yourself become Lawful.

Glemp wrote:To some extent, you need to be arrogant - without it, you are vulnerable being made someone's tool...for Herbert's sake, have the stubbornness not to submit to what you see instantly, because you can only see some facts at a time.

Just thought I'd mention that you guys seem way more lenient/tolerant/less personal (inclined to come down on things they disagree with) than the two other forums I've been on.

Ideally a mod would have two accounts, one for modding and one for everything else and no one would know which two are linked. That prevents mods getting undue influence over beliefs and culture (it's not even their fault, it's just what happens).

willpell wrote:Common courtesy, like common sense, is a rather nebulous concept which most people think means something different from what everyone else thinks.

While that is a nice idea, and one that could actually be considered here and that I'd be perfectly happy to see put in place - sod's law is a mod would be logged into their personal account, forget, and post something modly - or rejoin a conversation they'd been having on their personal account while logged into the mod account, or whatever. It wouldn't be the end of the world, but it would rather ruin the AnonyMod-ness when it happened.

I remember tripping over myself like that countless times on IRC - not being mod/notmod, just running several NPC characters in a text game and ending up posting as the wrong name after getting up to get a drink, or otherwise being distracted.

It's a nice idea, but as a mod? I would totally forget. As it is, the few times I end up logged out I have to go through a few passwords before I remember the right one. I'd be very unlikely to log out, log back in, log out, log back in frequently to make posts as a mod. Especially as there are lots of times where we end up making a post and then shortly later having to go and respond to it.

teriaki wrote:Ideally a mod would have two accounts, one for modding and one for everything else and no one would know which two are linked. That prevents mods getting undue influence over beliefs and culture (it's not even their fault, it's just what happens).

I don't see how it can prevent that. They will be the same person regardless of how many accounts they have. It might affect people who are prejudiced against mods, but in my opinion such people would do everyone a favour if they leave ASAP.

lingrem wrote:It's a nice idea, but as a mod? I would totally forget. As it is, the few times I end up logged out I have to go through a few passwords before I remember the right one. I'd be very unlikely to log out, log back in, log out, log back in frequently to make posts as a mod. Especially as there are lots of times where we end up making a post and then shortly later having to go and respond to it.

Basically, it's pure laziness in regards to things like that

It's curious that forum software isn't set up to do the same thing that pretty much all computers do now, which is have multiple "user profiles" that launch at startup, letting you log in as a person with the click of a button, and maybe a password. Certainly, if I were designing some forum software from the ground up, I might try to put such a feature in, mostly for the reason of roleplaying (letting GMs have separate accounts when posting as NPCs so they are treated as other PCs, creating greater versimilitude).

You either die Chaotic, or you live long enough to see yourself become Lawful.

Glemp wrote:To some extent, you need to be arrogant - without it, you are vulnerable being made someone's tool...for Herbert's sake, have the stubbornness not to submit to what you see instantly, because you can only see some facts at a time.

I'd like to post about my experiences of Living in a Housing Co-operative with it's own intranet that allows everyone to post their opinions. I work closely with the moderators and those that the "community" want to discuss. I've been one of those in the firing line. Death threats - you name it for volunteering, so I understand the abuse you take and it must be worse for those at the centre of this really quite wonderful comic. I am 100% behind everyone involved.

I talk from 25 years experience of delivering service online and (lucky me) by phone, the venom is something most people would be both surprised by and damaged by. [Over a million clients dealt with]

When it comes to moderating there is in my experience nothing to be gained from discussing it with the offended, the offensive or anyone else. It is fuel for the fire that they are already wanting to see burn.

1st offense: Issue warnings when you see fit. (the warning could "decay" after time depending on how lenient you want to be)
Always post and repost the rules.

2nd offence: Moderate without discussion and point only to the rules that have been broken. (the warning could "decay" after time depending on how lenient you want to be)

3rd offence: Ban, with rule infraction cited. Only allow access to be returned (if you want to be lenient) when an agreement from the offender is forthcoming

Never negotiate.

Anyone who refuses to accept moderation should be moved up one offence and notified of it.

The forum is the equivalent of your home, you do not need to explain to every git who turns up kicking off. If they don't like it, they can leave - they will not be the paying guests anyway. You do not need to discuss it unless its a rare occasion of misunderstanding which can be dealt with through the usual direct admin communication (Anyone abusing this should have their offence escalated one step)

I hope this finds you well and that it's intent only comes across as an intention to help.

teriaki wrote:Ideally a mod would have two accounts, one for modding and one for everything else and no one would know which two are linked. That prevents mods getting undue influence over beliefs and culture (it's not even their fault, it's just what happens).

I don't see how it can prevent that. They will be the same person regardless of how many accounts they have. It might affect people who are prejudiced against mods, but in my opinion such people would do everyone a favour if they leave ASAP.

People alter what they say depending on what they think are the beliefs of the community elite, especially moderators.
They will also polarize when in disagreement with a mod who's currently discussing something as a user. By polarize I mean a small fraction will get confrontational while the rest will be deterred from disagreeing.

I'm simply speaking from my experience in other forums, it might be different here.

willpell wrote:Common courtesy, like common sense, is a rather nebulous concept which most people think means something different from what everyone else thinks.

parnellsimon wrote:The forum is the equivalent of your home, you do not need to explain to every git who turns up kicking off. If they don't like it, they can leave - they will not be the paying guests anyway. You do not need to discuss it unless its a rare occasion of misunderstanding which can be dealt with through the usual direct admin communication (Anyone abusing this should have their offence escalated one step)

When I was on Facebook, I had a welcome message that basically explained this idea of a digital home, and my policy of non-negotiation with anyone who took the liberty of tromping around and making life unpleasant while visiting. I got a few complaints from folks, but generally it was understood and accepted. It helped that the ban-hammer was used fairly, but swiftly - people quickly understood that even on the internet common courtesy is expected.

I think the moderators here do a great job - I'm very grateful for the environment they've helped create.

computerslayer wrote:When I was on Facebook, I had a welcome message that basically explained this idea of a digital home, and my policy of non-negotiation with anyone who took the liberty of tromping around and making life unpleasant while visiting. I got a few complaints from folks, but generally it was understood and accepted. It helped that the ban-hammer was used fairly, but swiftly - people quickly understood that even on the internet common courtesy is expected.

I think the moderators here do a great job - I'm very grateful for the environment they've helped create.

Agreed. I've been reading through a lot of the threads and the mods here are friendly and bring a lot to the discussions in addition to moderating them. It feels like they're around to protect users, not censure or censor them. It's nice.

computerslayer wrote:people quickly understood that even on the internet common courtesy is expected.

Common courtesy, like common sense, is a rather nebulous concept which most people think means something different from what everyone else thinks.

You either die Chaotic, or you live long enough to see yourself become Lawful.

Glemp wrote:To some extent, you need to be arrogant - without it, you are vulnerable being made someone's tool...for Herbert's sake, have the stubbornness not to submit to what you see instantly, because you can only see some facts at a time.

Okay, I've been meaning to post this for a while now. We have been working on providing more structure to the way we do warnings. I want to emphasize that the following breakdown is flexible, and we will always reserve the right to skip a level if we feel a particular action warrants it.

Tagged reminder to abide by the rules and tone things down

More general, polite reminder

Examples
Please don't post in ALL CAPS, it is against the rules not to mention rude.

OR

Just a reminder before things get too heated, personal attacks are against the forum rules. Remember to be polite and respectful to your fellow forumites.

OR for an individual:

Mr. Anderson, I know that you like to flout the rules of the Matrix, but please remember to clearly mark/identify any potentially NSFW links as directed in the rules.

Warning that may or may not mention specific users (optional)

Given after a blatant rules violation, direct insult, after ignoring a warning, etc...

Uses more direct language.

Examples:
Guys this is out of hand and needs to stop. The next time we need to step in people start getting warnings.

You either die Chaotic, or you live long enough to see yourself become Lawful.

Glemp wrote:To some extent, you need to be arrogant - without it, you are vulnerable being made someone's tool...for Herbert's sake, have the stubbornness not to submit to what you see instantly, because you can only see some facts at a time.

It's curious that forum software isn't set up to do the same thing that pretty much all computers do now, which is have multiple "user profiles" that launch at startup, letting you log in as a person with the click of a button, and maybe a password. Certainly, if I were designing some forum software from the ground up, I might try to put such a feature in, mostly for the reason of roleplaying (letting GMs have separate accounts when posting as NPCs so they are treated as other PCs, creating greater versimilitude).

NationStates has something like that - there's a "switch" button that logs you into to another account without needing to log out first, for the same reason. Not sure how they did it, they've modified their software a lot.

Glemp wrote:NationStates has something like that - there's a "switch" button that logs you into to another account without needing to log out first, for the same reason. Not sure how they did it, they've modified their software a lot.

NationStates still exists? I wonder if I should reactivate my "Nation". I've been a Benevolent Dictator, like many leaders were......

Actually, the mod for voting posts up or down allows a point system. Users who have received many "+" could be on shorter probation times than those who received primarily negative scores....
e.g. the "Karma mod, which can give "Karma power" (access to sub-parts or functions based on Karma points and registered days). Might also be interesting for the two discussion threads Thunt created...

Glemp wrote:NationStates has something like that - there's a "switch" button that logs you into to another account without needing to log out first, for the same reason. Not sure how they did it, they've modified their software a lot.

NationStates still exists? I wonder if I should reactivate my "Nation". I've been a Benevolent Dictator, like many leaders were......

I've tried that, but only got as far as as Father Knows Best state. A shame that you missed the first of April - we had a 'Bytecoin' minigame, and the Mods, well...

teriaki wrote:Ideally a mod would have two accounts, one for modding and one for everything else and no one would know which two are linked. That prevents mods getting undue influence over beliefs and culture (it's not even their fault, it's just what happens).

Then you have to keep track of what account your in, log out and back in if you're in the wrong one, etc. I've been in just one forum that operated that way, and it was chaotic. The way it's done here works well, whether on a forum, and email list or elsewhere. The mods are their human selves until mod-mode (not unlike god-mode) is needed, at which point they set forth the commandm...I mean put on their mod hat and take charge.

The informal attitude maintained by both the mods and the general public on this forum is one of the reasons I still check back almost every day, even though I don't have time to do a lot of actual Modding and there hasn't been an update to the parent comic in ages.

If we start implementing hard & fast rules rather than using our own human judgement, if we try and distance the Mods from the other users rather than having them just be here among us, we risk becoming the fascist state we come here to escape; I have no interest in promoting that. I think we've done pretty well at maintaining this human climate, especially for a bunch of faceless electrons in cyberspace.