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#453 – Yay O’Clock With Sarah Holloway/

#453 – Yay O’Clock With Sarah Holloway/

September 12, 2019

Sarah Holloway – Lawyer turned funtrepreneur

Sarah is the brain behind one of the biggest tea brands in Australia, Matcha Maiden. After working as a mergers and acquisitions lawyer, Sarah jumped ship to focus full time on Matcha Maiden, and later, Matcha Mylkbar.

Sarah shares her infectious energy through her podcast Seize the Yay, and her Instagram, Spoonful of Sarah, chatting about all things farshun, fitspo, frolicking and funtrepreneurship.

0:14
I feel like I've got stuck in in my head at When did you come up with fundraising? Uh,

0:20
I think it was probably right at the beginning when I had first gone full time. But I still felt like a total fraud. And I can't really say that that's disappeared as much as I would hope that would have been. Is it fair

0:30
to say that the fondness comes it's the opposite of being a lawyer is a lawyer being? Is it fun to be a lawyer? I mean,

0:37
I think it is for some people. Yeah. And I think they're the vast minority of people who do Laurin stuff. is, there's definitely an element of fun for the Super Brainiac side of your brain.

0:49
Is it anything like suits?

0:51
Ah, I mean, less than I thought that was getting really pumped to you know, to think that I was going to this glamorous career with like, beautiful clothes. And you know, you stop. It's like last for about a week. Yeah, I recommend a deal closes and the champagne like that's really glamorous and exciting. But most of its paper pushing, eating, you know, Max at your desk. And

1:19
Well, you've almost gone to the opposite side, which is, and we've had a lot of people in the show. So we've had someone who has a criminology degree, hasn't used it, missing a seven, he's smart as hell. And now look where you are. But was it always for you? Were you wanting to like, I mean, we grew up together, you know, going to school, it's like the uni thing. It's like, you know, be studious, abide by the rules to the degree. When did you start getting your hint of are going to get this? I think

1:51
it was pretty early that I knew. So pretty much since I was a kid, I've had equal parts node burger and RFID is how I describe it. You know, when you're a kid, you kind of keep doing you keep your options open, keep your doors open at school, I did all different subjects and all different extracurricular activities. Then at uni, I did arts law, so I still kind of kept both sides alive. So it wasn't until I got into full time work. And I was a couple of years in that I realised one pot had slowly started to just die away. Like there's no role for that fun RFID side in a strictly corporate environment. And I don't think I've gotten to the point where I hated it. It's more in hindsight that I'm like, Whoa, I was really stifling a lot of my creativity. At the time, it was more a feeling of, I'm probably not going to end up here forever. It doesn't lock me up. But it's not awful. You know, it's so hard to get a job as a lawyer. So when you do get it the first year, you just been being grateful you got a job. Oh, yeah. And then you know, you're getting paid well, like you've gone from a uni wage to all these opportunities. I got to work in Hong Kong for six months, there's enough for you know, the a type excited personality when the learning curve is really steep. It's still exciting for a while it's more that I realised when I did stop mucha. It was the comparison that kind of woke me up to like, Oh, wait, this is how I feel. And I do legal work. But this is like, may I feel like my true self and all the stuff that I've been letting kind of disappear, came back again. And I was only by that contrast that I was like, Oh, this is maybe not where I meant to end up. I think a lot of people get in there. And they're like, I need to get out. I wasn't like that.

3:20
Yeah. So you've got a podcast now seize the day, which is where I feel when I feel like I think of you now that's a lot of the stuff where I see you spending your time. There's before the or after the loitering. And before the podcast, you started much a milk bar. Is that right? Yeah,

3:37
actually made it

3:38
and much amazing. What was the catalyst for making that switch from the mattress side of things, but then also saying, making the next pivot across to podcasting? Ah,

3:51
good question, I think pretty similar to both of those businesses, they were random ideas that came out of nowhere, that just is kind of house easy I came about is that I didn't even realise at the time when I was doing law that I wasn't happy. I just was fine. You know, and I think a lot of people are just fine. And they're like, Oh, this is just how life is. And until you say something that's more than fine, you don't even notice. So the idea of the podcast came out because I realised how many other people are in that situation. And I was lucky enough to have, you know, an illness and then a discovery of match a totally by accident that allowed me to start on this pathway that ended up in a complete life change. But a lot of people don't have something that just wakes them up one day. So the whole idea of, you know, seize the day being my life philosophy of don't just be on this conveyor belt of productivity, start to find the joy and things again, and let your inner child stay alive and stop being so serious about everything all the time. That idea came about because I realised I had found my joy, left corporate started these businesses, but then three or four years in had started to corporate ties those, and it's this cycle that you get into of like, you find the joy again, you take a big job, and then the comfort zone catches up with you. And then you just sit there. And I was like, ah, I left law to get away from this. And then I'm my own boss. And I've created the same situation where I'm burning out, I don't have the joy, I'm not excited, I'm the learning curve is slowed down. And I just realised, everyone has to have something at all times, whether it's your full time job, or whether it's your side hustle that makes you excited. And that makes you excited about everything, because you've got something that is driving each day. So I was like, I need to start something new. It's been five years, Nick and I have been together 10 years now. But we, you know, became business partners and suddenly had no like boundaries between couple and you know, I like pillow talk will be up bass. And I was like, wow, something has to be done about these, like, I need something on the side. And the podcast came about again, because I was just always seeking to learn and grow and follow the joy and the bits that spark you. And I think the bigger a food or like or any kind of retail business gets the further away you get from the customer. And so in the beginning, we were like right in that personal connection. But as it got bigger and bigger, I realised as we scale, I don't get to speak to the customer. I don't get the people being that's my bit. That's the bit love. Is it more painful, finding out that second time around, where you have actively tried to seek a lifestyle that works for you. more painful that it didn't happen,

6:20
or Yeah, I guess that once you get because I guess I've had a bunch of transitions or pivots in my life. And when you pivot to the next thing, which is going to be the thing, it's meant to be the thing that's going to tick all the boxes. Yeah, when it doesn't, it can be a bit rattling because you realise Oh, hang on. Maybe this is May, maybe this wasn't the lawyer job at all?

6:40
Yeah, totally. I think in the bit between realising that I hit my kind of confidence, not my competition, but I'd hit that kind of grind again. And before I had the idea for the podcast, which I reckon was a couple of months, I was totally lost. I was like, what, what, what do I do now like, I've kind of made this big jump, but you can't keep spinning that storey for, you know, it's been years now. Like I've got it what what else is, what else might leave without what else is my legacy. And one of the bits that unite the bits that I love with the bits that I'm really good at. And I felt that in the matter business, and even in the hospitality business, they were starting to be the bits that I wasn't that good at. And then also the bits that I wasn't that lit up by. But I think that's what that discomfort is what kind of makes you search for something new, which it's no mistake that then a couple of months later, something else came up. And that's another thing that really helped me through that whole period was realising that once you make one big jump in your life, it's not like you just take a step back and go, Oh, cool. I'm done. Now I made one big jump, I'm, I'm good. Like I am over self congratulatory. So I was like patting myself on the back for years and years. But I think you, especially in this day and age, and this is what I talked about on on the podcast, there's meant to be so many chapters. So maybe matchmaking came to get me out of the legal career, but it was only one step. And maybe there's five more steps before I find my actual thing. And instead of holding on to that, like I've done this, I have to make this work. I just, you know, I think I started the podcast and realised Oh, it could have just been leading me to this. Or this could be still leading me to something else. Like it's all an unfolding evolving process

8:12
where everything we do is we don't know the result. I mean, we can't say the future. So it's like, that's what I love about creative endeavours outside of business, right? The stuff that doesn't really make sense. The bug flying my first doesn't really make sense, but I'm very

8:27
doing the NLP.

8:28
Yeah. But I mean, we had an artist on this week who was putting up posters. He's now written a book. He's got, you know, fame worldwide for what he's done. But I don't he didn't have that, when he's rolling it up that that's going to be the thing. And so when you start something like a podcast, what was your going into your podcast? We love talking about podcast on this podcast. Let's be honest, we

8:49
don't get that many. I mean, the early days. Yeah. The first 50 episodes, there was a lot of podcast chats on this podcast.

9:00
Do the podcasts even 100 episodes?

9:03
Before 50 something in? Yeah, we're still doing but for you. When you take on a creative project, how far down the track? Are you thinking? You said your night type? You use that term? I've heard that more this week than I've ever heard in my life.

9:18
I say now I say yeah, type. Okay.

9:21
Have you done any trademarks? By the way?

9:23
Yeah, have? I could imagine that's right. Legos. I got Yeah, I've got WordPress da. I've started using your neighbourhood like Welcome to the

9:34
Have you actually, one of the things with trademarks is obviously you need to defend them. Have you had any moments where you've had to send any letters or anything? Yeah, until

9:43
last week, no. Hole. So I actually tried Max AZA 18 months before I started the podcast because I had the idea. And I knew I would use it for something. I'm like, Oh, this is great. Like, it just captures everything that I think about life that you don't seize the day is to productivity achieved success, money, milestones, I wanted to be much more about joy and, and fulfilment and excitement. But then anyway, I had no idea what I'd use it for. And in that whole time, I hadn't had anyone trying to use it until a billboard came out. And I've got a little CCA like Facebook community with the neighbourhood, obviously. We just started like maybe a month ago and someone saw the Billboard and was like you're doing a collaboration with this massive company. It's all up all every moment central is amazing. And I was like, Oh, no, I'm not actually.

10:34
There it is.

10:37
Now, so really, I mean that you're doing it

10:40
with my doing Yeah, I guess you gotta defend well, cuz that's the Intel. I mean, I want to get back to my question, but that's what

10:45
I'm excited about.

10:47
Intellectual property. I mean, that's what you're holding on to right? You got these ideas and brand

10:52
to that though, I think Yeah, people creatives alike. Oh, it's just an idea. Like most, most creatives don't have a law degree. Let's be honest. Yeah. People who start a podcast and they have a good idea. And so when we looked into the trademarking thing

11:04
we did, so we

11:10
know what we did the pre, the pre check where they get someone from IPS ready to look at it. And they were saying it's like, too generic, like the daily talk show. We can't. Can't trademark

11:22
because it's Yeah,

11:23
yeah, too broad, broad. But then Justin Flynn from thank you for saying that. What they did was, I think they trademarked the image for they started the image level, but I don't know.

11:36
Yeah, it was mastermind. And so you can do a word mark, which is just the word or you can do the logo with which captures the words, and then that gives you some protection, because then even if they use a different logo, you can say it still resembles the little like, the whole thing overall, looks very similar.

11:52
So what's the so TJ, what was your question?

11:56
He was so certain on it.

12:00
I thought that was about creative endeavours stuff that doesn't really make sense, financially, especially, that you actually enter into and then forming a plan around that, right? Because you could come up, start a podcast and, you know, all his month, one month to this is how I'm going to monetize. How far ahead do you think, in your creative endeavours.

12:21
And not very far at all. I with iOS, I have gone from having like a five year plan or a 50 year plan to not even a five minute plan, which I kind of like I'm like, obviously, at lots of different extremes. I'm either like super angry, retentive planning, or I'm like, pocket. Let's do it right now. And I think since moving into business, and this was another realisation that happened when I decided to start the podcast was that you, if you give yourself too much time to think it over and I'm a bigger over thinker, like if I didn't rip the band aid, I probably won't do it. and managing the self doubt has been the biggest, biggest challenge I think along the way. Because in law, you know, I've studied for seven years to you've got a really clear hierarchy of who to ask questions to you never out of your depth. And you always know what's coming next. Even if you're learning about different content, or like learning different levels of responsibility. It's still like a familiar environment. But moving into business where you have no qualifications, the whole business environment is different. Even if you had mentors that were clear. I think it's been good for me to get out of that hole. I need to know what's happening in five months, 10 months time, it's like you don't even know if Instagram will exist in five months or 10 months time, you don't know what ecommerce platforms coming out. So why agonise over all the tiny details when it's going to change month to month anyway. So

13:35
is it about being ready,

13:37
said Joe. Joe. I think like the ability to adapt constantly to a new environment is more important than having it planned out in advance, you obviously have to like, have an idea of how you're gonna pay your bills, and you know, who you're going to ask and how you get your, your equipment. But I think one of the big things in the whole CCA philosophy is I always say, doubt kills more dreams than failure ever will. And done is better than perfect. And I've gone from being like such a perfectionist, who is trained to be risk averse, and to find all the things that are going to go wrong and need to combat every single possibility to someone who's like, Don't even worry about it. Half of those won't evaluate anyway. And then even if you get it perfect, and you think that's perfect, you're released into the market, and they'll they'll hate it. And you'll need to change everything anyway. So just put it out there, get your minimum viable product, whatever it is podcast, Episode One, that's all I had thought about was like, how do I get one out there? and match them with the same like, how do we sell one bag to one stranger and then I can put on my LinkedIn and I'm on Terminator, and then I can go back to Laura and we're all happy and joy and like I can take off that

14:36
book. Yeah, well, the side hustle is almost the the hiding place because you can call it a side hustle because most people have a side hustle would love if you gave them a magic wand to make that their full time thing.

14:48
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. But I think it's good to just start because the biggest lessons you'll ever learn only once you've started and once you get your idea out there and then start to mould it as people paralyse themselves with like overthinking, and then the fears and you know, risk and all that stuff. It really bugs me down. So I kind of just, I think I had the idea for the podcast in like, October, and I asked my first guest, so that that would force me to buy the equipment for the day that I'd sit with her mother. Yeah. And then I just figured out how to record on the day. And then I was like, shit, I gotta edit it now.

15:24
Like a bit of pressure from external forces,

15:27
how do you deal with like, family and friends? If you're in a situation where they're like, What are you up to doing this podcast? We get all a lot around monetization? How are you making money from? How have you got a good answer that we could use?

15:46
It's actually been amazing having such support. Firstly, Nick being my partner and him. He's never had a job. He's literally been an entrepreneur, every stage of his career. So that's made it a lot less foreign to the people around us. It meant on networks kind of used to and a lot of people are in business already. So I was kind of a light come up. So it wasn't this whole like, like my law friends, obviously, were quite shocked at my corporate friends were like, What are you? How are you getting up at 11? In the morning, God said, and travelling all the time, and

16:16
she slept till 11?

16:18
I mean, sometimes Yes.

16:23
I am, you know, club that's being pushed, and I appreciate.

16:29
It's a great, it's a great solely the sole member, but that's okay. Yeah,

16:36
yeah.

16:40
Yeah. So have you had to like, Is there anyone where you do feel that pressure? Because I guess there is a difference between freelance and business and say, with what we're doing? no clear business model yet. There's obviously advertising at a certain scale. But you're thinking only five minutes ahead. Yeah, nowadays? Is it? Is there a good way of communicating it to two people?

17:08
Yeah, I think. I think in both situations, I've made the circumstances in a way that the news is a lot easier to break. So by the time I wanted to leave my job, the business was already doing well enough. Like we, I kept my job for the first six to eight months. So I'd go to work work like a 20 hour day, come home pack matter in the middle of night, go back to work. And so by the six months, you know, in, I was like, I'm going to leave my job, but we're already making money. So you know, it's proof of concept. And it's not a stupid, irresponsible decision. And then by the time that podcast started, it started as a hobby. It was never meant to make money. So that that took the pressure off, because we were already we already had jobs and businesses, it was a lot easier to say, if it monetizes amazing. So it's worth spending all the time on it, if it doesn't, like, you know, doing something that clearly has proven itself by now. And then I think if you can talk down, things that you're doing at the beginning to make it sound less of a huge jump that helps you be able to cope with it, and then everyone around you to get on board more. But I also mean that unique, amazing situation where I'm Asian, but I don't have Asian parents, because I was adopted. Yeah, I think you know that already. So my parents are completely white country bumpkin, Australian. So everyone's always like to tell you, and I'm like, I don't have to like you usually get dressed like you do. You know, this, they've been so encouraging that there's been no family pressure,

18:32
as I've been a transition, though, through the podcast, as it's built momentum to say, Okay, now I actually need to be thinking this with a different lens rather than a been a hobby.

18:43
Yeah, I think once you get to the stage where you have enough of an audience, who are taking on what you say, in such a serious nature and applying it to their life, you realise you have a level of responsibility that you probably didn't think that you would have. And that's when I started to think I probably have to be a bit more conscious of not being so random. And like, I love the chats being so open and so random, but always to make sure that I've done my research, if there's anything super controversial to make sure that I've covered off, you know, how I'm going to cope with that, that if it goes super open, like this

19:18
would be an example of controversy,

19:20
um, not so much controversy, but more like, you know, we've had Asha ginsburg came on and was talking really openly about suicide, and I was like, I need to make sure I recover that in a responsible way. Because it's not a five people anymore. You know, to a lot of people, I think, you know, things like that, that a hard to cover in a way that if anyone sensitive is listening, that you're doing your audience justice and doing it, you know, in a way that yeah, I think as it's got bigger, and then as sponsors have started to come on board, it also started to mean, more serious decisions about well, if I took that sponsor on what would that mean, for my content? I don't want any anything to influence my ability to cover things that I think really important. Yeah,

20:02
you have a lot of spread of being type A what a spreadsheet. So what are you looking at from a measurable perspective? Like, what are you measuring? In regards to CCI?

20:13
Um, I look at, like, the lessons that each episode gets, I still, I think, because part of the reason for starting it for me was to inject something that's for joy that isn't metric based, I really have to hold myself back from trying to get growth episode on episode or week on week, like I know, the shameless girls are, have been so clever in the way they've strategized how they want, you know, the growth to double and triple and how they do that. But I've focused more on just getting the content out that I really want to get and then everything else is like a side effect. Because I'm my not my like nature is to go, oh, but I got, you know, 20,000 last week, so I want blah, blah, blah, this week. And then, you know, in the week three, I got this. So by week, 30, I should be you know, I've tried to not make it about that. I have happened to have an episode every week. But I've never announced that its weekly. It's just like, if I can do it amazing if I can't, if I missed one week like this.

21:08
Now, I probably will.

21:11
Now, once a week.

21:17
Well, someone actually said to me, like every Wednesday, I'm waiting, and I'm like, Wednesday. And it just turned out that they've been coming every Wednesday for like seven weeks.

21:29
And we had Shana Kennedy on

21:31
from come from the come. But

21:34
she's got a life the life plan laughing

21:36
Yeah, go over there. But she will Mitchell, she's awesome. She was talking about something she works with, you know, a lot of corporate executives that it's just about standing in front of the mirror. I don't know if she actually gets them physically to stand there. But it's about looking at yourself and taking away the job title. So be taking away the podcast, the things that you do, which the thing is, it sounds like you've morph these things that you love to do into your business, which kind of becomes you, right? And so I look at what we do. And you could be different if you are a lawyer working 75 hours and ideas could be more in a law firm awake, where you take away that because you actually have stuff outside of it. What is it for you What? Or do you see these things completely intertwined? to who you are as a person? You

22:23
mean like stripping back all the stuff?

22:25
Yeah, the brand, the podcast? Yes, you do daily, which it sounds like you love. So that's where I'm sort of wondering, are they so intertwined? I think

22:34
yes. But part of the podcast we made. So I'm so excited that the podcast has ended up being something that people really enjoy and seem to be getting something out of it. It very much started as I'm doing this, because I need to fix something in myself, which was not having hobbies, and not having things that had no metrics. So

22:51
is this the podcast was a hobby, it was cool.

22:56
Yeah, it was a very, like, you don't announce when you're, you're doing it, don't try and get sponsors, if they come amazing, you don't have a schedule, there's no, like the metrics, you know, you look at them, but there's no like, try and hit this by this time. It's I've tried to let it be the opposite of what everything else is because the businesses have to be because of the logistics and stuff, they have to be the opposite. So it's been my release from planning and achieving and like being productive even though I've kind of tended into that now. But the one of the sections of each episode is play to which is who the person is when they're not doing like your human being and human doing. So when you aren't your job or your hobbies or your output. What are you. And I think for me, I do everything I love, but I try to still have at least, like all of Sunday, I don't do a podcast or work. That's just my day that I need to like I get quite bad anxiety. And that's one full day where I just like put my phone away, it's on aeroplane mode. I might like take it to take photos of the dog or something. But that's when I like read crime books or spy books or garden or do puzzles or go for a run or how do you find switching off

24:05
Josh was mentioning this. Six days of you know, going hard. And then one day where

24:10
some days are like my most anxious days, like the day of switching switching off for me. I'm like, I'm not gonna do anything. So I eat food. Like I think if I ate better food and did walking be better. You know what, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna watch YouTube and just go down some really dumb rabbit hole. Best rabbit hole. I know they are good. And that's where I always am seeking to do it's like I'm but then by the end of the day, it's normally because Bry does stuff like she's like, well, I'm gonna like, go ahead. And then she comes home. And then I'm sure. I'm like, well, we're

24:46
today together Exactly. A little bit.

24:50
I mean, what it so is the Sunday, is that that decompression? Is that alleviating anxiety? Or is that giving you an opportunity to actually cease and address the anxiety?

25:02
I think it started as my most anxious day because I was just like, Huh. And then I think it's like anything if the more you practice something, and the more your body learns to expect that on a Sunday, you're not going to have to use your brain. It just takes the pressure off every other day of the week. Because it's like, I'm operating at such intensity and your brains going. Like even when you're just so people facing and pouring energy into relationships and like being at the cafe and you're like, Whoa, time. I know that I can hold that up. Because on Sunday, I don't have to speak Yeah. And I think once I got past that initial kind of three or four weeks of it feeling yuck. I feel like that's what happens. That's the nature of this like, you know, overstimulated anxious society that we're in is that rest actually feels yuck at the start because you searching for something to do because you've been taught that you're like default nature is stimulation

25:52
or even like going to bed early. Yeah. Went to bed at night. I went to bed at nine last night. It was like winning. actually didn't go to sleep sleep until 1030 on my phone

26:01
if I yeah, but the phone is just a no get rid of this zaps. Yeah, yeah, it almost like when when you are more brain dead from a big wake and being on the phone, then it's just like you're fully in a vortex.

26:12
But it's almost like a more joy of all about like of the brightness. Right? Yeah. And then I appreciate that. What I love about your brand. And what you do on Instagram is you're one of the few people who it's like, you do have a level of positivity. Like, it doesn't seem like, it seems like you're enjoying the content that you're creating. And it's like, I think it's, it's also because the way that you speak to the camera, I think me lose another person who does it really well. But it's just the Yeah, I think what I learned from watching you is that you can be in the platforms and still be functioning at home. Feels like, it feels like a times the amount of time I could be like, Oh, man, I've spent six hours on Instagram today.

26:59
Yeah. Which is good. quite high and quite regular.

27:02
Yeah, yeah. But isn't that what you're doing? Yeah, yeah.

27:05
But I think it's also since having since being a bit more clear about what I'm using it for. I think it takes a really long time to get comfortable with why you're there and what you're trying to do with it. And since the podcast, it's been so clear to me that it's to spread joy, like one of my favourite quotes is, people will never remember what you said or what you did, they'll always remember how you made them feel. And I feel like that's my brand is every conversation every time they buy a match. Every time they listen to the podcast that they leave me like

27:33
life and it feels like a bit detached as what like I think like Tommy and I were talking about it, having a show having something gives us this licence to put stuff out more because it doesn't necessarily feel like flying. Rc that like in some ways, like it feels like say at the beginning, we would never post like Tommy especially not much stuff on personal Instagram. And then you just get to a point of like, Oh, this is this when you're doing a podcast and talking for an hour a day. This is who we are

28:04
as a self also. And I think it's all of the thing that you do. So there's a confidence level in what you do when you start doing it for long enough. Because there's a lot of noise of people who just you see them they've celebrated and put a launch party out for episode one. And then CES kind of fizzles out was actually the best episode and the most fun that they ever had in the project. Yeah. Were you

28:25
worried about that? Getting the podcast out there? was it? Was there a mechanism so that you could get past that? I think it's 1111 episodes is his weight number pretty cool. At my old podcast, Josh baking did 11 episodes Yes. I feel like that's the

28:44
now I've read

28:45
it Oh, wow. I didn't even say this is why I think it's good sometimes not to do your research and just stop because otherwise around Episode 11. I would have been like, ah, but I was just like, okay,

28:56
so you were doing wanted it was the Did you batch any at the start? Or was it I've

29:00
been all over the place. So I back to the first I did one that I benched five, because I was in Sydney and that was in Sydney. And then I went to two weeks ahead kind of rolling. And then I went through a phase where I was literally like three days before or two days before I was like, Fuck, I got nothing. And then now I'm like nine weeks ahead,

29:18
oh, well, maybe 10 change the type of content because I guess one of the things that we've discovered with doing the daily Talk Talk Show is having the always on sort of we're continually moving. It's all chronological. So it's all quite easy. And when we have we had a couple of moments where we've done matching, and it can it changes the dynamic a little bit. Yeah. What about that in regards to our This is going out in nine weeks? Where is my guest going to be? In regards to the the audience? Yeah,

29:49
I definitely prefer not to go further than maybe three or four weeks. Because I think when you're chatting in a really informal at casual context, you always talk about stuff that's happening in the news or like, topical current stuff, or there's a launch coming up. And then by the time it comes out, they've already launched it, and it just feels a bit stilted. It's just because we're getting married that I was like, Oh, I want to make sure that there's, you know, something I've definitely found because we're, you know, travelling a lot in the next couple of weeks. But I've definitely felt that. Now when I'm editing them. I'm like, Oh, wow. I can say and

30:25
start editing. Do you? We don't edit his own?

30:29
Sorry, we should let you know.

30:32
Oh, you mean as well as you don't

30:35
know, we don't edit at all.

30:39
You never have would know, which is a once early that. So we it brings in a new element when you starting to film stuff? Yes. So there was a feat like once earlier on, which is this is that you learn really quickly when you have to do that. Because then you like never again. And so what yeah, it's good practice just so that we can get through them.

30:58
And yeah, I mean a

31:01
time constraint thing. More than an editorial decision. It's also

31:04
like the, I think it'd become maybe a better performer, maybe not performer, but like a better communicator. In regards to you don't have the option to edit

31:15
what you want to do talks, which I know you do, if you could know that you can count every one of them up, it just then becomes this perfect thing where, yeah, it's an evolution you grow from seeing your thing out in the world, that isn't what you wanted it to be. So then you've got another option to come

31:32
another opportunity to come back and try business. It's strategic, too. I think for you, it makes sense to wear it based on giving people a very bespoke experience around CCI. Whereas I think what we're trying to emulate is a couple of gronk talking gronk

31:50
that's my favourite word. And then I just started using it. And then I didn't realise how much I used it. And then we had people emailing us saying, I've been using gronk.

31:57
So our audience is called the gronk squad

32:00
is an original jacket.

32:03
No, well, it's

32:05
a dictionary, but Yeah,

32:06
it is. And then there's a guy, NFL player gronk ASCII who uses Wow. And so I think we actually got a GIF into Instagram. Through his we've got the gronk squad. So we got this flashing grace, but I think they only let it in. Because if he

32:24
tried to get the gunk up,

32:26
yeah, Yes, we did.

32:28
That we go.

32:29
It's actually yeah, tough. It's tough.

32:32
In terms of the stuff you're doing the stuff we do, I think it's quite natural in the early days to look to your right or left and see someone doing something that kind of what you want to be where you want to be verified. Let's be honest. I think it's it's quite natural to have the knee jerk reaction, the visual responsive on like, you know, it's almost not jealousy, but it's a reflection of you and where you are, I think as a person, have you had those moments where you are looking left and right, at maybe competitors, or people doing the similar thing?

33:10
Yeah, definitely, I think early on, especially when we literally went from being the first to market and definitely the first to market that even knew what Instagram was like, we look the cool Metro brand at a time when it was booming as a search term. And as a product and Victoria's Secret angels wanted it. And we were just the only one that was actually selling it easily online. And then we went into this landscape where there were like 20 to 50 competitors. In the course of like six months, everyone just figured out that the barriers to entry were low and just went boom. And that was super distracting. Like I reckon for a year I spent time just heavily researching everything they would do if they had another flavour or like whatever direction they were going. And I was like, Oh shit, and I'd go down a trail of like wasting three or four months trying to, you know, formulate something they were doing before, you know, they'd pull it off the shelf because it wasn't selling and I'd wasted all this time comparison. And I think losing traction in that first six months of having competitors compared to when it was I was just focused on what we were doing. And a couple of instances like that where I was about to take someone's lead and then heard that it wasn't a good idea, or it didn't work for them and being like God, if I had done that, it would have totally, you know, I felt like it wasn't a good idea. But I just did it because everyone was I think that really taught me early, that you just have to get your blinkers on, because someone else is always looking for exactly what you have. And so the way you do it differently is why people come to you and why people go to the competitors. But if you don't stick to what you've got, then you're just becoming exactly what they are. So stick to your guns. Also, you have to do what's got more longevity rather than if you you know, a lot of them were doing things that would get people really quickly because they wanted to kind of steal market share, but then weren't doing wholesale that early do online. So it's like, well, what is the online retail context kind of slows down on what you did, and Instagram, you know, like direct sales would slow down two years later, significantly, and we spent all that time building wholesale. So I think that first three to four years really taught me how many mistakes I almost made by being too distracted by others, and reminded me that the, you know, the grass is greener where you water it and literally on Instagram, if you're on your competitors page, you're like giving them engagement. And I just realised like I can't follow what they're doing. So I think I followed or did just blocked a lot of them until I could be sure that I wouldn't be tempted to do it. And that has meant that now that experience has made me very clear on you know, we're talking about before, like, how do I get anxious when I'm not on my phone? And how am I comfortable with the you know, am I still getting joy from the platform, and I think I am now because of those experiences, it's taught me very much to just delete and block the people that don't make you feel good when you're on it. And only follow the people that that you get something out of. And I feel really confident that the stuff I put out there is stuff that I like represents what I want to be doing and achieving for other people. So it makes it a really nice place to be rather than somewhere that's like pulling my eyes towards like people with better bodies, or people whose businesses are doing better. And it's all just like fluff. And you realise that when you realise that what we're doing is fluff. So what they're doing must be fluff. And we did an incubator with Giovanni, which was amazing. But again, like what you think of businesses, what what everything looks like, on the outside is never what the operations like. So there's no point getting all riled up about something when it's all just perception and smoke and mirrors. And the ones that are doing so well don't have a big following and don't market very well. And the ones that aren't doing that will look like that, you know, so it's just like, just focus on what you are all you can control is what you're doing. And any time that you spend stressing on everything else is just a waste of your energy. And you've got so little energy and time as it is like that's not what you want to spend it on.

36:48
What do you think about the having an internal list of all the things that you want to be doing? And when Is there ever a point where you say, Okay, I need to be the first to market with a with this, like, I guess on that sort of competitor? Talk, I know that the daily talk show, we've got a list of stuff that we want to get done, and then feels like there's a opportunity to be first to market with those things. What's your vibe on giving something time versus trying to be the first to market?

37:20
Yeah, that's a really hard one. I think in food, it's a lot harder, because you can't just go willy nilly with things. Because if there's a mistake, like it's a serious legal issue, there's like public liability or something like that. So we're a bit more careful before releasing anything, because you have to get so many food approvals and registrations, but I still think being first to market particularly now is still so important. Because it's so rare, it's such a head start, it really is such a head start to not have competitors and to be It's hard enough to start a new business, let alone when you're already competing against big players in the market who out resource you and you know, I think I think it's so important that the whole done is better than perfect thing comes from that. It's like you get your perspective, if no one else has done it before, just start and figure it out. But then if it's an apple, something that if you you don't want to sabotage yourself, either if you release it before it's ready, and then you you've got one chance to make your audience sure that it's going to be good. You kind of have to get in the middle of that somewhere in the middle

38:16
of expose the financial investment as well. Yeah, it's like working out the right time, like even I think with our studio space is it's like, the reality is we could have kept doing the show without the space without the equipment that we're using. And so it's, you know, it's one of the main That's the question.

38:34
And so when things are working, and you're getting, you know, the seeing some sort of form of success metric on the incline. Yeah, it's like the storey could be I know that everything we're done, we've done is, is why don't we ask

38:51
tightly,

38:52
but it's hard to know. Because like when people walking to our studio, they're always like, blown away, and they're excited about it. If we had rocked up differently, and it was a different scenario, would we be giving off the same brand and all that sort of thing? So it's, it's interesting. So when do you call bullshit on your own storey?

39:13
That's a good question. I think we could call bullshit on the storey we've taught ourselves but we got this office.

39:24
I think that's kind of part of your everyday journey, like and there's a moment in every day where I'm like, What the fuck am I doing? I have no idea. And part of that imposter syndrome, or that feeling of fraud is, I think, you know, I try it when I talk about self doubt all the time is like the thing that's the most natural human reaction to stepping out of your comfort zone. And so if you're ever going to be a person who's learning and evolving, you're going to come across that feeling. And instead of seeing it as a bad thing, I think it's something that shows you that it's proof that what you're doing is actually worthy. It's going to teach you something and teach you something new. So that imposter syndrome just shows that you if I didn't have that, I think I was either too comfortable. Because I was too sure what I was doing. Or I think that I wasn't checking myself enough to ever learn or evolve. So I think it happens every day, every day, I kind of check myself and I'm like, Oh my god, I don't know, I have no background, like something will happen in Metro. And even though it's been around for five years, I'm like, it could be double the size, or it could be triple the size. Or I could have had, you know, 25 skews, or, you know, you hear these things, the news that a Tea Company got acquired for like, 2 billion, or whatever it is, and you're like, oh, maybe I could have done that by now. And why haven't I is because I don't know anything? I don't have any experience? And should I get investors and like, you're always people questioning your decisions, because they're yours, and no one else has helped you make them and your Am I wrong? Like and that's

40:42
I think that's just part of it. You had on yourself.

40:45
Very, I think I that's part of what keeps me driven is being hard on myself. I think the pasty and this is actually something I was going to say to you before is that when you're making that decision, you know about do I do the next thing or do I start something new? Over the last year, what's become more important to me is what is that going to mean day to day? Because I think we chase how something sounds in the abstract. And don't think about day to day, is that going to be shit? Am I going to hate every day? Even though I like the sound of how that sounds? Or am I going to enjoy it

41:20
like being an author? If you don't like sitting down and writing a book, don't become an author.

41:26
That's what I mean. Like because it sounds great to be a published author and have your own book. I think a lot of people will go Yeah, sure. Like I have to write a book because everyone has a book over has a book like a copy over let's have a book. But if you hate writing, you're going to you're committing to spending a year on happy and it's sort of like is that really a good title? I mean, how much do you care about the book thing? So I think I will I am very hard on myself but this year because it's the wedding year, you know, I think I made a really big decision at the start of the year to be a little bit less hard on myself and just let myself be part of the element I am club some days

42:02
ago good.

42:04
What do I buy?

42:06
Well, the big thing was this is part of the chicken yourself thing is if I am preaching, finding a joy and I don't make time for it myself, then I'm I am a fraud. Like that is so hypocritical to me, like, well, I'm, you know, become so consumed in this podcast that I work in matter. And then I come home and do the podcast, and then I have no time to read crime books, or find joy. And I'm like, you know, work on my laptop all the time, then I'm not saving my even though I'm telling you to do that. Which is,

42:32
you know, I think some of the I mean, Gary Vee, you had Gary Vee on your podcast, I think I've heard him before talk around, you know, you've got your thing that you want to make your full time thing. So your side hustle, and you need to keep your job, like what you did worked in the law firm, but start on the side. For someone and I know you've probably you probably felt like this. You just want to get out. You don't like that advice? It's not,

42:54
you know, because you want to knowing you want to be that you?

42:59
Do you think? Is it? When is that time and from your list? And what is that moment because I don't think it's just $1 value of how much how much money is coming in the door,

43:08
especially for those there are some products or business structures where by its nature, you're never make enough, you'll never get it to the point that we need to jump unless you jump. So you're just going to keep chasing that tight if you wait too long. I think the moment for me was when they become mutually exclusive. And I think people forget as well that when you start a business like as a side hustle, you're not inundated straightaway, like it takes you a while to grow to the point where you would even have enough to do full time. I think people think it happens right away. And then you suddenly live with this decision of like, Oh my god, I leave my job. But it happens slowly, because you have to build to the point where you have enough to do every day. And I definitely didn't, I had more than enough time to still do my law job for the first six months. It wasn't until the minute where I realised I would have to say no to opportunities in the business because I physically had no more hours Lyft when you get to that like real kind of grind the point where it just everything's pushing and there's no more room for you to move, that's where it becomes necessary to either choose one or choose the other. And that's when it's not as scary anymore, because you realise it is a once in a lifetime opportunity when you've still got your footing kind of both. And you can still kind of manage them together. I'm like, keep doing that because the cash flow will help you enormously, your wage will probably help the business grow for the first you know, however long it is. I think it's just when you are becoming your own opportunity cost in the equation. That's when you can consider leaving, like a you stopping it from ever getting bigger. If you've hit the maximum that you're ever going to get to without leaving that it's maybe time to give it a chance because you can always go back.

44:43
Especially, we've been talking a lot about perfect days. And Tommy and I've gone into detail about our perfect day. What would you please share 15 minutes on perfect day. If you were to go into extreme detail about your perfect day, waking up what time we know.

45:06
I mean, it's a pretty short day.

45:11
That's when I've gotten into a vortex of YouTube and I'm watching dogs coming on to their

45:17
really great time. There's also pregnancy announcements when there's twins the best I really I got yeah when this twins and like they don't tell anyone that to have come out and then you walk into the hospital. See, this is the shit that I end up doing in the middle of the night when they're holding one baby and then the dad pops out with the other and it's Yes,

45:32
the gender gender reveals going wrong. Is it

45:37
really good.

45:39
I just I can't I can't go past an owner coming back from Afghanistan to that. Yeah, it's just my my Yeah, my real trigger point.

45:48
So the perfect guy what would you if you were to go into detail? Seriously? Yeah, I'd be courageous with how long it goes for everybody. Yeah, blah blah blah.

45:57
Okay, um, well, they'd be sleeping. I'm a big believer in or not a morning person. I forced myself to be a morning person most of the time.

46:06
And first thing I always do is when Tommy waking up

46:10
probably like a seven 730 OZ alarm

46:12
go off the alarm. Definitely. I dropped my cup naturally.

46:16
I

46:18
know that's a normal day so I might perfect day I would sleep naturally until I woke up Yeah, which is not on a weekend probably like nine Okay, like 930 I go for breaky. I love breaking days I go out for brickie every single day like I don't buy handbags I don't my jewellery I'm not like a things girl I'm experiences girl and like I'm a poached eggs. I'm sorry, Melvin. Ridiculous. So I go out for breaky. Gosh, I don't know I think, I don't know if I'd work on I think I would work I think I'd have like a podcast episode to sit down and edit. I like feeling like I'm, you know, producing something or, you know,

46:57
where are you in the world where

46:58
Oh, love travelling more than anything but extreme travel like honeymoons in Egypt? Like we do weird stuff. I've probably been Africa or like, you know, on the beach in like Seychelles or we've been something.

47:13
haven't been to Poland. I'm just worried that you won't be able to get smashed ever at these places. I mean, that's why Mexico Yeah, maybe next year makes me at least walk.

47:24
I'm really I'm a summer baby. So somewhere warm. Yeah, somewhere where there's a beach but where there's also cafes. It has mashed avocado.

48:09
and then six months in quarantine to go home. It's It's so full on. Johnny.

48:16
Johnny? Yep. So

48:17
yeah, yeah. Yeah. I actually have to leave in quarantine with six months. That's nice. Well, we

48:27
had Molly on and her mom worked at an airline and said that never take your dog. Yeah, yeah. So go on.

48:33
So he would somehow have shipped himself. retriever friendly.

48:40
And be a deep in the ocean probably a run or like some kind of class. And then I would read a true crime book for the rest of the afternoon in the sun.

48:50
You speak French or Italian? But fuck, that's good.

48:54
A lot of languages I love languages. I'm fluent in French. I did oh my lord, French. Wow, I know stupid I cry

49:06
cuz lowers and hot enough to it in a different language.

49:11
In my brain, it was how I forced myself to into situations that are going to be beneficial. Like at the end, I didn't think about this was when I hadn't learned the whole day to day. What does she mean? You know, overall, I was like, well, I'll be fluent at the end. So that's awesome. And then I hated everyone else. Like I'm going to Europe and exchange. And I'm going to be you know, partying and on boats and stuff. And I was just studying the whole time.

49:32
So does that mean would that be

49:34
siloed?

49:36
In the legal system that you only know the French word for?

49:40
Probably not. There are there's a few things in civil law, which is like the system that applies in Europe, that we have common law in Australia. So there were some things that I was like, Oh my god, that doesn't exist. Yes. I'm the guy

49:57
that asked the French onion soup in France.

50:01
We just call it

50:05
Singaporean and when he orders Singaporean noodles, he's not Singaporean. Like he's grown up in Australia. Yeah, from taxi. And he goes, I'll just have the noodles and they're like, which ones He's like, well, I'm Singaporean. So I just called not funny. is a dad joke walking? like your dad jokes. Like it's Yeah, my thing

50:22
is all about that, that you don't even know how you can do that.

50:27
I mean, you can do you

50:30
dad jokes. jokes in French. And so so you've done the class or you've gone in the water?

50:37
Yeah. Gone in the water.

50:38
Some water temperature outside?

50:40
I reckon like a good 3232 but not a 35 like a 3132?

50:47
Zero. 32?

50:48
Yeah, so warm Mediterranean water. 32.

50:52
That'd be nice. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

51:01
I've just spread the it

51:04
might not even past your exercise. So you've done

51:07
Yes, I've done some exercise, some exercise, the dogs had a swim. And then I find like, a cliff or something or I can like spread out and just read a crime book for the rest of the afternoon. And then eight again, big eight. Some kind of big Mediterranean faced. Yeah. And then. And then, yeah, I don't know. Just a nice, quiet evening, walking around. Well, we

51:37
didn't mention our partners at all. business partners.

51:41
So your partners and business partners

51:43
haven't mentioned at all Nick in throughout the whole perfect day. I mentioned the dog gutterman.

51:47
I said, Nick, I said the dog and Nick. And that's because I've traditionally not said that and then explain like, wow, you did you saw

52:01
literally

52:02
the other day Tommy had a moment where he said, and then I go on a flight to LA. And I was like, oh with Bodhi like you know

52:13
it's interesting. It's interesting what the perfect day because then it starts to reframe your normal day. You're like, oh, why don't I

52:19
do all those?

52:24
phrasing

52:25
that'd be a massage. I'm a big fan of massages. That'd be a massage in there. And then some Netflix, some crime related. I'm sorry. So weird. Okay, so I'm such a happy optimistic like, the kindness of humanity, blah, blah, blah kind of person. And then my joy when I have everything stripped back is like war, and crime and genocide. Like it's with me? Why does that make me happy and relaxed?

52:52
archipelago? Have you read that? No. fucked up.

52:55
I love it then.

52:58
Yeah, there's something interesting about like, the, like, the world and all the shit that's going on. Like I went and did a big deep dive into North Korea, like two years ago just reading all of it. And it's it's insane. Like the I was reading MR. There's one it's like a love storey or whatever. But it's fascinating.

53:19
Do you know so I was born in South Korea. And people are always like, which Korea I'm like, Well, obviously the one that you can leave from?

53:27
Well, yeah. I think like there's only been a few defected. Unless you're running through the DMZ. You go to our because Have you got snatched it is full on isn't it you think about like, like, just stopping for a moment and thinking about all the people that are in the world. And then think about like, what they're doing.

53:52
It's pretty crazy. I didn't want like I was flying over.

53:56
Flying over. Like, just in applying I remember one. Yeah. For some reason, I got chills, come on, cut. Look at my paper. And

54:04
I was flying from Israel to Italy. And we're going over these look like desert areas and these rocky areas, and there's little lights on. That's when I go Holy shit. Look how the way people live. This is crazy, huh?

54:22
This is this. This is the stuff that keeps me up at night. And I think that's why war fascinates me so much is because it's the psychology like the human condition. Like how how did people like us degenerate to that state of affairs? Wow, factor

54:36
way. But if we had to find it more, that's the other thing I think about like if, if all if things happened, and all of a sudden we had to like sort of hopeless. Yeah, what would we do?

54:45
So this is why I didn't go to Korea for 15 years because I have a birth certificate. Not a passport. But there's a technicality where I could be caught up for military service. Not now cuz I'm 30. But I could have been. And I was like, I don't feel like I'm equipped. My

55:07
Have you been to South Korea? Then

55:08
I went back with Nike. Actually, three weeks ago, it was the first time in 17 years was not really because I left there when I was six months old. And it was like, oh, but you know, do you remember might remember being torn away? And I'm like, do you remember when you were six months old? Like I'm a white Australian country bumpkin in my brain? Yeah, I only remember here. So it was like it was it was nice to be like, wow, this city has changed so much in 17 years. But also it was kind of like any tourist who's Australian going there and be like, cool.

55:41
Yeah. This is do you feel a connection?

55:44
Really? I mean, especially because even the locals know the way Western because our body language and everything I was speaking English, obviously, they don't go on come up to me and talk because if I'm from there, they're like, oh, like they speak English to me straightaway. So I'm like to feel like Yeah, yeah.

56:01
I think it's my fashion. Yeah, it's certainly good. I was looking for this mashed avocado and that like, we don't do that.

56:09
Thank you for coming on the podcast. It's great. Just talking shit with a fellow podcaster. And yeah, just nice to I like you in like the, you know, obviously, you don't normally doing interviews and stuff. So it's nice. Just if I can. Absolutely shit.

56:24
Yeah, that's my favourite kind of tour.

56:26
What would you ever consider doing something that's like a an added on thing to what you do that is a little bit more. Well, not chatty, but just yeah, loose where you can be really? Yeah, righteous.

56:40
Yeah. So every now and then I did it for my 30th. I do one where I just talk, like, people ask questions. And then I just kind of like, let it let it all hang out. And it's a great time for all and I think people like whoa. Yeah, Nick and I gonna do one for a wedding where people can just go to town, and we'll do like the newlyweds game and record it. So it's less structured. And it's more just and I kind of it depends on the guest as well. I feel like some guests the episodes come out that way because they have like hysterical. And some of them come out a little bit more structured. Yeah. But um, yeah, I've been thinking about more how I could do a more loose unplanned segment that wasn't researched. Maybe by bringing back guests who have already been on the air and

57:26
choose your own adventure as well would be Yeah, having fun. You could play like a cards or you know,

57:32
what is the cat? Is that okay, cards?

57:34
I just choose you.

57:36
Because you talking white book

57:39
the quote, calendar? Was it or what was a little flip book? Yeah, I could imagine something around like,

57:45
to the same awesome

57:46
questions and stuff to

57:48
the milkshake ones. Yeah, it was really fun. Yeah, I love that those kind of jobs. And I'd love to be a bit looser in like just chatting about random random stuff. And I think like, I encourage every guest to Hey, that way if they get onto something they're really interested in it we just go with it

58:04
will take time to like I think the other thing is it's like, we always end up drawing out the end because it's like we're just like a bit reliable way exhausted by the end of the episode. And so we don't we were out of podcast interview. Just that mode. Yes. I feel like that's where it's actually some of the magic can be Yeah. Great. Thanks for being on the show. Sarah.

58:28
Having me This is amazing. Very say

58:31
yes. To daily talk show. Enjoy the show. screengrab share it on Instagram also check out sees the A on Apple podcast or Spotify anyway. podcaster. Any, any any episode? The other day though? Probably taking the pinna you want do you want you definitely say all that you do gals? Are you saying it to shameless every time. I just might use written trauma. But you said it dude. We don't

59:10
listen to one episode

59:13
of CZI based on our audience and also we see gronk the gronk squad gronk

59:19
Oh, that's a hot. Okay, so I think my favourite episode is the one with Barney Miller, who's a paraplegic so far.

59:27
I haven't haven't heard that one yet.

59:29
And his wife legends, and he was very early on episode seven, and is one of the happiest people I know. And he was 20 in a car accident, no alcohol. He was the passenger driver got out pretty much with a scratch and he was like, complete, say six quadriplegic. And he learned to walk again, to kneel again to propose and walk again to have their first dance and it's just like, the most beautifully chilling, amazing storey just about humanity. Like they're amazing, amazing. Show Notes. Yeah, so much fun.

1:00:03
Thank you. Hi, the daily talk show.com his email address if you want to send us an email. Otherwise, we'll see you tomorrow, guys. See you

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