Not that this really means anything but from the ESPN article on possible Red Sox managerial candidates....

CURRENT JOB: CLEVELAND INDIANS INTERIM MANAGERThe former big league catcher served as Manny Acta's bench coach with the Indians until Acta was fired this month, and now looms as a leading candidate to replace Acta, although former Red Sox manager and current ESPN analyst Terry Francona has signaled his desire for the job. Alomar was interviewed for the Red Sox job last season, but did not make the final cut.

Current name on the top of the Sux wish list is John Farrell - again. They wanted him last year but he had two years on his Blue Jays contract. Apparently Farrell's welcome in Toronto is wearing thin with them having a losing season this year and reported friction between him and the GM. Boston is already considering which player they might have to offer up in order to make a manager/player trade. Bobby V. maybe be gone from the team but they are still providing endless amusement to Tribe fans living in Bahstun exile. ;-)

I've tried 'em all, I really have, and the only church that truly feeds the soul, day in, day out, is the Church of Baseball.~~~Annie Savoy-"Bull Durham"

Can you believe the luck of Dumb and Dumber (Shapiro and Antonetti)? They've essentially run this franchise into the ground, yet, as things stand right now, they're going to come out looking like geniuses whether they pick fan favorite and icon Sandy Alomar or "proven winner" Terry Francona. Unbelievable. I want to be standing next to these guys when the apocalypse occurs.

Adverb Harry wrote:Can you believe the luck of Dumb and Dumber (Shapiro and Antonetti)? They've essentially run this franchise into the ground, yet, as things stand right now, they're going to come out looking like geniuses whether they pick fan favorite and icon Sandy Alomar or "proven winner" Terry Francona. Unbelievable. I want to be standing next to these guys when the apocalypse occurs.

I do not think they could withstand having to fire either of them though. Either the Indians win or there will be a complete turn over next time. IMO.

Adverb Harry wrote:Can you believe the luck of Dumb and Dumber (Shapiro and Antonetti)? They've essentially run this franchise into the ground, yet, as things stand right now, they're going to come out looking like geniuses whether they pick fan favorite and icon Sandy Alomar or "proven winner" Terry Francona. Unbelievable. I want to be standing next to these guys when the apocalypse occurs.

I do not think they could withstand having to fire either of them though. Either the Indians win or there will be a complete turn over next time. IMO.

Just a guess, but Francona probably won't come cheap — either moneywise or in terms of how much control he might wield.

Does this signal the possibility that the Dolans are taking this year's results and attendance (or lack thereof) to heart? Does it mean that they may actually be opening the purse strings? Is that too much to hope for? Is the end of the world really at hand?

I give it 4 months before Francona gets fed up with this situation. I don't know why he's walking into it. Guy spent 8 seasons with an owner with bottomless pockets who hand-fed him whatever personnel he needed. That ain't happening here.

Best solution was to hire Sandy, blow it up, and let a young manager grow alongside a young team.

Now, we get to spin our wheels in mediocrity with a manager whose salary ranks in the top ten of player payroll.

A God Damn dead man would understand that if a minor league bus in any city took a real sharp right turn, a Zack McCalister would likely fall out. - Lead Pipe

That's my only question, too. Very happy and pleasantly surprised by this signing, but not sure what it signals as to the direction the organization takes. All signs pointed to an offseason of moving parts that don't factor to be long-term players (Choo, Perez, maybe Cabrera). Now, I'm not so sure. I can't think Francona is eager to take over a club destined to lose 90+ games again, so what's the plan now? The only way to really reshape this club is through trades--unless Dolan really shocks us more and opens his wallet wider. And I don't see that as happening, either. Maybe Francona really wants to be part of a young team, but if so, it's going to be ugly for him for a while.

I know we have Choo, Masterson, Perez and others potentially going to arbitration, but it seems like we should still have some serious cash just to get back to the payroll we went with this year. Hopefully Dolan starts Francona's reign off with some monetary support, be it via free agency or adding players via trades, we need some kind of veteran talent injection to this roster.

They got a guy who can manage and is not a complete moron, he managed in Boston, and is "Battle" tested. I gotta believe he understands what he is walking into. No way he took this decision lightly, so maybe he genuinely wants to manage here. Is that so hard to believe?

This move isn't really bad and it doesn't make us worst in a managerial capacity. At the very least It keeps us where we are because the managerial position is not the part of this system that is broken.

The hiring of Francona does seem to make a fire sale less likely though, which is probably what they need to do anyways. I figured if they hired Sandy, a fire sale would be guaranteed. That is the only possible negative I can see.

I'm sure payroll differences might pose a bit of culture shock for Francona. On the other hand, put yourself in his place and consider: Which players do you think he takes the most pride in looking back: Pedroia, Papelbon, Youkilis, Ellsbury, Buccholz, yes, Masterson, i.e., young (inexpensive -- at least at first) players he helped develop; or Lackey, J.D. Drew, Renteria -- i.e., big-money veteran bust aquisitions who contributed to the bloated payrolls and the team's ultimate decline? Sure, there were plenty of big-money veterans who paid off (Manny, Beckett, Schilling, etc.) but the core were always players who came up through the system.

And one thing we know about the Indians system is that something always seems to "happen" to these great prospects we see in A and AA ball. Can Francona indeed make the likes of Santana, Kipnis, Chisenhall, and more importantly the ones just coming up behind them take the next step the way his home-grown Red Sox did? Who the heck knows -- but I can't wait to find out.

Last edited by Pressrunnr on Sat Oct 06, 2012 11:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

1Perry wrote:The latest on this on ESPN is Francona saying that the reports are premature and that they are still in discussions. Hopefully if it does happen those discussions revolve around the idea that Francona has far more input on any trades. I do not think Sandy could demand that.

I imagine it would be a positive for the Indians as conventional wisdom says Francona is the best available and the Indians actually stepped up to get the best available.

{edit} so much for ESPN. Matt Underwood just confirms that Francona has been hired.

For the 2nd time in the HISTORY of Cleveland pro sports, we have hired someone with a previous championship on his resume to be Manager/Head Coach.

Read that again. Then think about the history of Cleveland. Then shit on this choice if you want to.

Personally, I think it is great.

Anyone ever consider he enjoyed the time before all those douchebags decided drinking during the games was the cool thing to do?Before a team that was known as much for playing balls to the wall as they were for the payroll that landed them their talent flipped to a bunch of bitches only concerned about themselves and their paychecks?

Any chance he is genuinely excited about a challenge of turning something around?

I still think we get a fire sale. Or at least a sale. Bat Masterson is a lock to stay. But Choo and Droobs may and should be gone. I think it's 50/50 on Perez, he's an enigma.

We just won the AA Champ...and we have a bunch of guys esp. Lindor who could get here in 2 or 3 years. Note the length of Tito's contract. 4 years. They and he, are guessing they will contend in 3-4 years, so it would make sense to rid yourself of anyone of value who won't be around for that "window", get the shelves stocked with prospects at AAA and AA, and get them up here at the same time.

Oh...and that 4 year contract? It won't be cheap. They are going all in again on another "wave" or "rebuild" and I expect they're not gonna be dumping Frank before that contract is up.

Contend in 3 or 4 years? I thought the window of opportunity was open now...what happened there? When I was 8 years old, I heard about how will compete in 3 or 4 years. That was fifty years ago. Except for the mid-late 90's and 2007, that was it. Color me less than excited.

Oh..and we have been winning championships with our farm teams all over the lot for years....hasn't meant a thing.

pup wrote:Anyone ever consider he enjoyed the time before all those douchebags decided drinking during the games was the cool thing to do?

Awesome.

Thanks Marge Schott.

Also, tickles me that there's not a single decision the org makes that you don't hate and criticize because the people making them are incompetent, but because Tito won 2 titles with a combined $500 million payroll 10 years ago that this one is a good one.

Gotcha.

Bottom line, this doesn't matter. It makes no sense but it doesn't matter. He'll retire with whatever rings he brings if the incompetent tool boxes that run this organization continue to stock it with shitty players.

And I love how here we ask "why can't he manage young players" as opposed to "when has he successfully managed and developed young players into a winning team".

pup wrote:Anyone ever consider he enjoyed the time before all those douchebags decided drinking during the games was the cool thing to do?

Awesome.

Thanks Marge Schott.

Also, tickles me that there's not a single decision the org makes that you don't hate and criticize because the people making them are incompetent, but because Tito won 2 titles with a combined $500 million payroll 10 years ago that this one is a good one.

Gotcha.

Bottom line, this doesn't matter. It makes no sense but it doesn't matter. He'll retire with whatever rings he brings if the incompetent tool boxes that run this organization continue to stock it with shitty players.

And I love how here we ask "why can't he manage young players" as opposed to "when has he successfully managed and developed young players into a winning team".

It's homerific.

Did you turn the OSU game off after the 1st quarter or something? You're awfully angry for this early on a Sunday morning, even for you.

You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves-----Abe Lincoln

Let me tell you, if any of you douchebag empty headed stuffed suit nanny politicians tries to fuck with my bacon, I’m going after you like a crazed chimpanzee on bath salts. -----Lars

pup wrote:Anyone ever consider he enjoyed the time before all those douchebags decided drinking during the games was the cool thing to do?

Awesome.

Thanks Marge Schott.

Also, tickles me that there's not a single decision the org makes that you don't hate and criticize because the people making them are incompetent, but because Tito won 2 titles with a combined $500 million payroll 10 years ago that this one is a good one.

Gotcha.

Bottom line, this doesn't matter. It makes no sense but it doesn't matter. He'll retire with whatever rings he brings if the incompetent tool boxes that run this organization continue to stock it with shitty players.

And I love how here we ask "why can't he manage young players" as opposed to "when has he successfully managed and developed young players into a winning team".

It's homerific.

Did you turn the OSU game off after the 1st quarter or something? You're awfully angry for this early on a Sunday morning, even for you.

I'm not angry at all. I don't even mean to sound surprised.

It's perfect Indians Fan Syndrome. Use reason to form an opinion on what SHOULD happen and then when something else happens find whatever argument based on pretzel-logic one can to justify the latest decision.

For 8 years he managed a veteran team with a $220 million dollar payroll in Boston. Perhaps even deftly maneuvering around big egos and doing a terrific job. Great.

But let's forget how it ended because that was the players fault now, not his for allowing it. Let's not talk about the 4 years in Philly where he averaged 70 wins. Not his fault?

Let's not ask what history he has in developing and managing a young team devoid of talent and instead ask, "Why can't he do it"?

Does anyone think that perhaps Francona was able to extract some concessions (maily a payroll increase) from the Dolans before taking the job? Not saying it happened...just food for thought. I would guess having Francona as the manager might be marginally better than Sandy in attracting free agents...marginally. The big thing, of course, will be money.

Overall, though, I don't see where it will make a difference unless things change dramatically at the top.

peeker643 wrote:And I love how here we ask "why can't he manage young players" as opposed to "when has he successfully managed and developed young players into a winning team".

It's homerific.

A brewers fan I know asked if I was excited about Francona. I replied that I was if he came with a LF, 1B, and 3SPs. Because, to your point, it's the talent that matters. Always has, always will. And I think everyone here understands that.

But I'm not sure why you're railing away on this point so hard. Francona has had success elsewhere. Whether that can translate to success here, well dude, we just don't know. He probably has about the same chance as anyone else who isn't incompetent, I guess. But he is pretty much proven to be competent.

You ask "when has he successfully managed and developed young players into a winning team?". Some might say that he took guys like Pedroia and Youk and molded them, but that wouldn't be honest because of all the expensive veteran talent mixed in.

So I ask you this: was that mythical molder and developer of talent available and the Indians passed him over for the shiny object? Who was there to hire with that track record that you find lacking in Francona?

The manager doesn't matter, so why waste so many words destroying the choice?

Does it mean we are going to the WS? Fuck no. Does it mean I expect them to be better than with Manny shuffle the deck at 7:00 then sit on your hands from 7:05 til 10:00? God damn right I do.

There is no point arguing it. As the LAST person to defend any decision Shaponetti makes, I would think this would exclude me from the fanboy rep you are painting, but I guess not.

A guy that has won (and I do not care how or why) in recent history is better than bringing in someone that has never done the job or when he has he did it poorly. Would you rather they brought in a SP that started his career poorly, found some success on a better team, then had a bad couple of months in his last job...or a stiff? Or a rookie?

Is this somewhat painted by my hope this is the last straw for this regime? Maybe.

Regarding Mother and Pup, my issue is that it makes no sense from a competitive standpoint. You want to bring in a guy like Francona when you have a 2007-type team I'm more than fine with that. But this isn't that team or that time. Francona is going to have to be lights out just to reach his Philly-level of 'winning' and in two years they'll be looking to make another change again because they haven't the talent to benefit from what Francona brings.

No doubt I prefer a proven thing over an unknown. But this team is in a developmental mode right now and there's nothing in Francona's past suggesting that that is his forte.

I don't believe this hiring will make a huge difference in the results on the field. Only a radical change in philosophy and/or getting rid of the front office will do that.

However, spoke with my dad who is at best a casual Indians fan, hasn't paid attention to them since the 2007 playoffs. He was really excited and said "about time they get a winning manager in there, I really like this move." Judging by this one response, IF they are able to make a couple of productive off-season moves along with this it may go a long way to stop the bleeding in attendance.

Bigfist wrote:Does anyone think that perhaps Francona was able to extract some concessions (maily a payroll increase) from the Dolans before taking the job? Not saying it happened...just food for thought. I would guess having Francona as the manager might be marginally better than Sandy in attracting free agents...marginally. The big thing, of course, will be money.

Overall, though, I don't see where it will make a difference unless things change dramatically at the top.

This is why I have decided I like this decision. For Indians fans it's a win either way. If Francona can get the job done that is of course what it's all about. If he doesn't, then please tell me that there is no way that Francona can go without the entire front office going with him?

I agree that Francona didn't agree to take the job with his only requirements being that the Indians meet his financial demands.

Dismiss my hopes that Francona is going to demand input in every move all anyone wants but Francona does not succeed without doing that and I believe he knows that. We can read about how he is great friends with the front office but he also isn't a guy that believes you make your decisions based upon nothing more than crunching the numbers and being a good guy.

I like the move a lot but it's also an incredibly lucky stroke for a front office duo that, presumably, kept their jobs by the skins of their teeth. Now, they basically bought themselves four more years -- the length of Francona's contract. Because you figure, with his track record, he deserves that long a leash from us to turn things around -- but because he's such close friends with Shaprio and Antonelli, Dolan essentially won't be able to let them go without him going too. In which case, Dolan's on the hook for running off a WS-winning manager, and of course, on the hook for his contract too. So again, essentially, Shaprio & Antonelli have themslves four years' job security.

Well played, guys. Good for you. Now that you have your Francona Shield .. listen to him. Get him whoever he says he needs. Let him bring the organization where it needs to be and stay out of his way. That's how I see success looking in this move. (Naturally, being a Cleveland fan, I can see how disaster looks 1,000 different ways, but I choose not to go there)

Pressrunnr wrote:I like the move a lot but it's also an incredibly lucky stroke for a front office duo that, presumably, kept their jobs by the skins of their teeth. Now, they basically bought themselves four more years -- the length of Francona's contract. Because you figure, with his track record, he deserves that long a leash from us to turn things around -- but because he's such close friends with Shaprio and Antonelli, Dolan essentially won't be able to let them go without him going too. In which case, Dolan's on the hook for running off a WS-winning manager, and of course, on the hook for his contract too. So again, essentially, Shaprio & Antonelli have themslves four years' job security.

Well played, guys. Good for you. Now that you have your Francona Shield .. listen to him. Get him whoever he says he needs. Let him bring the organization where it needs to be and stay out of his way. That's how I see success looking in this move. (Naturally, being a Cleveland fan, I can see how disaster looks 1,000 different ways, but I choose not to go there)

Agreed on the Francona Shield...but no way does he tell Chris and Shap what to do. That job is Dolans, and until he sells or runs the team at a net loss, the only way we win is by playing trade roulette.

The press conference is at 11:00 AM today. While I doubt they tip their hand, it would be interesting to see if they give any indication as to which direction the club is going to take this offseason and going into 2013. I still believe we need some major retooling, and if that takes trading off Choo, Perez, and even Cabrera for some players who are more aligned with 2014-16, then that's what they have to do. If they think we're suddenly contenders just because we have a first-class manager at the helm now, they're nuts. Besides, this is one of the weakest free agent classes in years (assuming we'd even be active in free agency), and there are very few decent prospects we could dangle (or afford to dangle) for veteran help. Rebuilding is really our only option.

If Francona is planning on taking a year or so to help develop a young club towards preparing for a championship run, then they're on the right path. If this is just another Ubaldo type move with no correlating action as we've seen before, then it'll be a monumental waste.

Very excited by this hiring. They just have to make it count for something.

But how many times have we heard this? Meaning developing a young club with an eye towards a championship run? I don't think I can count that high. Are the Dolans ready to spend more? I certainly hope they have a plan...a real plan....in place. One that involves getting real players here. If not, then the hiring of Francona is meaningless.

Bigfist wrote:But how many times have we heard this? Meaning developing a young club with an eye towards a championship run? I don't think I can count that high. Are the Dolans ready to spend more? I certainly hope they have a plan...a real plan....in place. One that involves getting real players here. If not, then the hiring of Francona is meaningless.

They can spend what they have spent.

Just have to stop spending it on Travis Hafner, Fatso Carmona Hernandez, Jhonny Be Bad...

Would be nice to see them spend more. It would certainly help, but how they have spent what they have is a much larger issue, IMO.