Looking back at the White Sox 2nd baseman over the years (back to Nellie Fox)...it looks to me like the two best all around 2nd baseman the Sox have had are either Durham or Iguchi...who would you pick between the two of them? Or is there another 2B you'd take ahead of either one? Donnie Hill?

I'd take Iguchi.

rowand33

07-15-2005, 05:51 PM

today? Iguchi, no doubt.

Though Durham in his prime...

I think I might have to choose Ray in that case.

skobabe8

07-15-2005, 05:52 PM

Guch.

Rocklive99

07-15-2005, 05:53 PM

Hawk used to love watch Ray run, but someone else gets him excited these days...

owensmouth

07-15-2005, 05:53 PM

Nellie Fox, hands down... Keep in mind that he's the one of them that is in the Hall of Fame.

TomBradley72

07-15-2005, 05:55 PM

Nellie Fox, hands down... Keep in mind that he's the one of them that is in the Hall of Fame.

I agree....I meant of the 2B's they've had since Nellie.

skobabe8

07-15-2005, 06:02 PM

Nellie Fox, hands down... Keep in mind that he's the one of them that is in the Hall of Fame.

Nellie's not an option. The best SINCE Nellie.

PennStater98r

07-15-2005, 06:19 PM

In his prime, Durham was the spark plug that got the team started. With Durham went the Sox is what I heard time and again from Hawk and my Sox fan family members.

Iguchi is great, but man - I remember when Durham was hot, the Sox couldn't lose. That said, I love Iguchi's glove.

alohafri

07-15-2005, 09:49 PM

Jorge Orta!
;)

batmanZoSo

07-15-2005, 10:45 PM

Can I take Joe Morgan?

Huisj

07-15-2005, 11:45 PM

maybe durham, but only if he's not in his "I could be in the homerun durby" mindset at the plate.

Mr. White Sox

07-16-2005, 12:02 AM

maybe durham, but only if he's not in his "I could be in the homerun durby" mindset at the plate.

Why? That mindset seems to work really well for Korey Patterson.

Daver

07-16-2005, 12:05 AM

Joey Cora.

Chrisaway

07-16-2005, 12:07 AM

Craig Grebeck

ShoelessJoeS

07-16-2005, 12:07 AM

can i vote for gooch or do i have to come up with someone new? :tongue:

jehosaphat

07-16-2005, 12:23 AM

I think Gooch has been a better player than Durham so far. 1 vote for Gooch!

Mark'sBrokenFoot

07-16-2005, 12:36 AM

Joey Cora.

If I was building a team from scratch, Durham would be my choice, but if we're talking about plugging a guy into the current team, well, Cora is where it's at. He's Iguchi, but better in just about every way.

FarWestChicago

07-16-2005, 12:59 AM

If I was building a team from scratch, Durham would be my choiceAre you always fascinated by zero range, fire hydrants with warning track power? This whole thread was a trick question, and you fell for it quite badly. :redneck

Mark'sBrokenFoot

07-16-2005, 01:19 AM

Are you always fascinated by zero range, fire hydrants with warning track power? This whole thread was a trick question, and you fell for it quite badly. :redneck

Your knock on Durham is warning track power, and you're backing Iguchi? Oh, and range? When Hawk is on the air saying Paulie knows he has to cover more ground than your average 1st baseman to help Iguchi out, I have to wonder about your assessment of his range, too. In short, when you pose a trick question, the answer is obviously "totally biased."

FarWestChicago

07-16-2005, 01:34 AM

Your knock on Durham is warning track power, and you're backing Iguchi? Oh, and range? When Hawk is on the air saying Paulie knows he has to cover more ground than your average 1st baseman to help Iguchi out, I have to wonder about your assessment of his range, too. In short, when you pose a trick question, the answer is obviously "totally biased."It's fortunate you already admitted you don't know much about baseball. :D:

chisoxfanatic

07-16-2005, 01:37 AM

Roberto Alomar!!!

DaleJRFan

07-16-2005, 01:44 AM

Your knock on Durham is warning track power, and you're backing Iguchi? Oh, and range? When Hawk is on the air saying Paulie knows he has to cover more ground than your average 1st baseman to help Iguchi out, I have to wonder about your assessment of his range, too. In short, when you pose a trick question, the answer is obviously "totally biased."

Iguchi is leagues ahead of Willie Harris and that's about all we need to know.

But hey, look at the bright side... we have Jon Adkins to account for the loss of Ray Durham.

Falstaff

07-16-2005, 01:56 AM

like somebody said earlier - Jorge Orta = hero of second base since Nellie
yet Gooch is even better. Durham alway seemed to be striking out our GIDP when I saw him at plate. Orta led the league in triples year after year. Bring him back for the playoffs!!!!!

Optipessimism

07-16-2005, 04:24 AM

Iguchi is still learning. The most amazing thing though - and Hawk points this out a lot- is that when you watch him play you don't think he's learning. It feels like Iguchi is a veteran in MLB, but he is not. He is only going to get better. Iguchi >>> Durham. Just wait. Look back on this post two years from now and compare stats, because barring injury, he will be one of the best there is in the AL. He's shown his defense, he has shown his ability to advance a runner, and that is it. He hasn't even shownb his power or his ability to steal a base. That will take a while for him to get used to, but when he does, watch out.

eastchicagosoxfan

07-16-2005, 04:59 AM

I think Gooch has been a better player than Durham so far. 1 vote for Gooch!
I couldn't agree more. Durham doesn't lay that suicide squeeze down. Fans were always waiting for Durham to put it all together. He was a constant source of frustration.

PaleHoseGeorge

07-16-2005, 08:38 AM

Ray Durham was a very inconsistent leadoff man. The 2000 team basically sank or swam depending on whether Ray-Ray was seeing the ball well. His defense was basically non existent except for those circus catches he used to make over the shoulder in right field. The one on opening night in '00 was especially memorable, laying full out to catch it in the webbing of his glove.

Iguchi is probably the best all around ballplayer on the Sox. Solid situational hitter, selfless at the plate, baseball "smart", and a very good secondbasemen, too. By contrast, Durham was a complete dope. He could go a full week without ever approaching the plate with a clue inside his head.

This isn't even close. Iguchi deserves a lot more credit for the improvement of the '05 Sox than he has gotten so far.

Frater Perdurabo

07-16-2005, 08:43 AM

Ray Durham was a very inconsistent leadoff man. The 2000 team basically sank or swam depending on whether Ray-Ray was seeing the ball well. His defense was basically non existent except for those circus catches he used to make over the shoulder in right field. The one on opening night in '00 was especially memorable, laying full out to catch it in the webbing of his glove.

Iguchi is probably the best all around ballplayer on the Sox. Solid situational hitter, selfless at the plate, baseball "smart", and a very good secondbasemen, too. By contrast, Durham was a complete dope. He could go a full week without ever approaching the plate with a clue inside his head.

This isn't even close. Iguchi deserves a lot more credit for the improvement of the '05 Sox than he has gotten so far.

AMEN!!!!

Realist

07-16-2005, 08:43 AM

I couldn't stand the fire hydrant. I love Iguchi. Although, they both sure do seem to K a lot for a number two hitter.

downstairs

07-16-2005, 08:45 AM

Bernazard. Hands down.

(Call the Teal Police!)

jerry

07-16-2005, 08:56 AM

Iguchi is a better defensive player than Durham, and is a player who can hit to the opposite field, advance runners and come up with big hits consistently. Ray Durham was a very streaky hitter who made errors on easy plays at key parts of the game. Iguchi was a key pickup this year. I can not stand when Harris is at second base...:smile:

BainesHOF

07-16-2005, 10:11 AM

Iguchi kills Durham.

doublem23

07-16-2005, 11:49 AM

Iguchi. The only asset Ray possessed over Tadahito was more power (though I'm not even sure of that), and I don't need power from my 2nd baseman/#2-hitter.

Tadahito's been an absolute joy to watch. Ray was a nice player, good guy, but a bit overvalued, IMO.

The Racehorse

07-16-2005, 11:57 AM

Eddie Collins over both of them. :cool:

mccombe_35

07-16-2005, 12:25 PM

wow. I'm surprised by your answers. As much as I like Iguchi I'd take Durham in a second.

Durham had a 6 year run where he averaged about a .285 avg, 115 runs, 30 SBs & a .370 OB%. Iguchi does have a better glove IMO, but Ray had the range.

Dolanski

07-16-2005, 12:53 PM

Scott Fletcher

TomBradley72

07-16-2005, 03:59 PM

Jim Morrison

TaylorStSox

07-16-2005, 04:04 PM

I'd take Tadahito over WTP any day of the week.

TaylorStSox

07-16-2005, 04:05 PM

wow. I'm surprised by your answers. As much as I like Iguchi I'd take Durham in a second.

Durham had a 6 year run where he averaged about a .285 avg, 115 runs, 30 SBs & a .370 OB%. Iguchi does have a better glove IMO, but Ray had the range.

Did you just say Durham had range?

TomBradley72

07-16-2005, 04:33 PM

Did you just say Durham had range?

Just my opinon...but I think Ray had good range to his left, great range on short flies to the outfield, horrible range going to his right.

TaylorStSox

07-16-2005, 04:41 PM

Just my opinon...but I think Ray had good range to his left, great range on short flies to the outfield, horrible range going to his right.

Bad range to his left. Really, really, really bad range to his right and great range on fly balls hit foul IMO. This all equals really bad range. There was a reason some people referred to him as the "fire hydrant."

RavenswoodFan

07-16-2005, 04:46 PM

Ray Durham was a very inconsistent leadoff man. The 2000 team basically sank or swam depending on whether Ray-Ray was seeing the ball well. His defense was basically non existent except for those circus catches he used to make over the shoulder in right field. The one on opening night in '00 was especially memorable, laying full out to catch it in the webbing of his glove.

Iguchi is probably the best all around ballplayer on the Sox. Solid situational hitter, selfless at the plate, baseball "smart", and a very good secondbasemen, too. By contrast, Durham was a complete dope. He could go a full week without ever approaching the plate with a clue inside his head.

This isn't even close. Iguchi deserves a lot more credit for the improvement of the '05 Sox than he has gotten so far.

I agree with you 100%!!!

BNLSox

07-16-2005, 07:17 PM

Joey Cora.

You beat me to it. I Luv Joey!

No love for Willie Harris?

FarWestChicago

07-17-2005, 12:10 AM

Bad range to his left. Really, really, really bad range to his right and great range on fly balls hit foul IMO. This all equals really bad range. There was a reason some people referred to him as the "fire hydrant."It's simply astonishing that people who actually watched Ray didn't notice the dogs coming out of the stands to take a leak on him. My gawd, The Choice may be the only infielder I've ever seen with less range. The shame of the whole thing is The Choice had no range because he was trying to protect his vaunted fielding percentage. I believe Ray actually tried. I've always been mystified how such a fast and athletic player could move like GIDPK in the field. George's post about his clueless approach at the plate, which is so true, makes me wonder if he was just as clueless in the field, negating his physical tools and making him The Fire Hydrant.

Paulwny

07-17-2005, 01:19 PM

FWIW, for those who chose Orta, a quote from Paul Richards,

" Jorge Orta never got acquainted with his glove and never met a ground ball he liked."

mccombe_35

07-17-2005, 02:19 PM

Did you just say Durham had range?

I thought he had good range. If you buy into range factor (a lot of people don't) that backs it up as well....

it was already mentioned, but Ray was great at getting to popups down the RF line.

Iguchi is a very good player. he hit a bomb in Cle a minute ago:smile: , but so far is isn't close to the hitter Ray was IMO. Durham was a 110+ runs, 35 doubles, 8 3Bs, 15+ HRs 65+ RBI player.

veeter

07-17-2005, 02:27 PM

Durham was no where near as smart as Iguchi. Ray was very talented and gutsy. But in a close race I'll take Iguchi, the ultimate pro.

patbooyah

07-17-2005, 03:42 PM

funny you ask... i was at a dodgers game yesterday and watched a line drive ball bounce right out of durhams mitt.

E4

no thanks

TomBradley72

07-17-2005, 09:20 PM

Hats off to KW!! Based on the responses in this thread from the most knowledgable White Sox fans...Iguchi is the best White Sox second basemen since Nellie Fox...40-45 years ago!

Signed as a free agent from Japan based on scouting via videotape!

miker

07-18-2005, 11:09 AM

Scott Fletcher

Hey don't knock Scotty, he was steady, if unspectacular, in both his stints with the Sox.

Julio Cruz was special, but only for the second-half of '83.

To answer the question at hand, I'm picking Iguchi. I liked Ray, but I never thought he reached his full potential.

eriqjaffe

07-18-2005, 11:43 AM

Iguchi > Durham

However, Fred Manrique gets my vote, based purely on his choice of eyewear!