DubyaHater:People who think Florida is paradise never lived there. There's a reason I moved out.

Thank you. Most Giants fans in Florida sit around and biatch about how bad things are here while never moving back to the Glorious North from whence they came. I'm glad you followed your dreams. Please convince any remaining friends and family to do the same.

FLMountainMan:DubyaHater: People who think Florida is paradise never lived there. There's a reason I moved out.

Thank you. Most Giants fans in Florida sit around and biatch about how bad things are here while never moving back to the Glorious North from whence they came. I'm glad you followed your dreams. Please convince any remaining friends and family to do the same.

I do my part up here in Canada to keep people the hell away from Florida.

Always been sinkholes in Fla? Probably, but I think the bigger question is why are there so many opening up now, when 50 years ago, one rarely heard about them?

Lets bypass the geological causes, shall we? We all know about that. You can take Global Warming mostly out of the formula too. Florida has always been hot, humid, rainy, swampy and right in the middle of the Hurricane Belt.

So, what has changed the most which has altered Florida drastically enough to transform the ecology and destabilize the land?

The population.

Florida has 3 or 4 times the population today than it did 50 years ago. Hundreds of thousands of acres of wild lands have been developed, changing the way water is absorbed into the ground, dumping millions of gallons of rainfall not into the aquifer, but shunting it into canals, rivers and streams and directly into the ocean.

At the same time, consumption of the underground water supplies has tripled and tripled again, dropping the levels and exposing underground caverns which used to be full and held up by water pressure.

It also exposed areas of limestone to increased acidic percolation, wearing it away faster and without the previous high water tables to help support it, gaps form and collapse. Also, there used to be acres of wild woods, whose roots and ground cover not only held the soil in place but acted like an organic filter, helping to cut down on acidic absorption as well as dispersing it over a wider area.

Mass development is not good for every chunk of land, but so long as developers make billions paving everything under and businesses see only major dollar signs by increased population growth, it's going to happen.

Florida used to be nice, with thousands of acres of wild woods, vast stretches of tropical island beaches, thousands of lakes and ponds that did not, every year, become infested with brain eating algae due to low water levels and increased heat and thousands of acres of land were not altered in their original geographic profile.

Example: 50 years ago, my home never flooded during hurricanes. There were never any water shortages in my city. The brackish lagoon was never periodically polluted with human fecal bacteria and had to be closed for weeks at a time. The beaches were wild and free, spectacular in their appearance, buffered by belts of wild woods. Hurricane damage was minimal due to the buffering effects of the many wild forests.

My neighborhood went from two houses on a wooded block to 17. Each with a water well. Zoning laws changed, requiring homes be built up on lots with added fill. My home is now the lowest area around, meaning runoff from storms flows into my yard and turns it into a lake. Paving the dirt road in front of the house raised it 8 inches above my property level, so more runoff cascades into my driveway and the house can start flooding during a heavy rainstorm.They changed the lay of the land.

The lagoon becomes polluted because when you build developments along side main canals and the edge of the lagoon, putting in 20 or 40 high end homes, each has a septic tank that drains into the soil.

This does two things: saturates the ground due to the high water table and rainy weather causes the effluent in the soil to travel and get washed into canals, which all empty into the lagoon.

Now, poke a water well alongside each house and you go from say, two houses sucking up fresh water in a one block area, to 20. That lowers the water table, which can also allow septic to enter the aquifer, exposes previously water filled natural caverns and exposes more buried limestone to erosion.

Multiply that by a square mile of houses, all tapping into the same aquifer. All dumping hundreds of gallons of septic into the ground, usually above the water table.Developers cut down the lush wild woods with the majority of their trees and when hurricanes hit, there are no natural buffers. So, property destruction and flooding increase.

To make it even better, triple the total area of heat reflective roofing, roads and parking lots and you develop a local convection current, which changes the way winds blow, which alters the local weather patterns. Meaning a mild rainy season can become a real soaker and a mild drought in summer can become a water rationing one.

Plus, the alteration of the inshore breezes can and has altered the ocean currents along the beaches and tripled the rate of erosion, meaning seawalls start being considered.

So, Florida's problem has little to do with climate, but everything to do with population.

ModernLuddite:FLMountainMan: DubyaHater: People who think Florida is paradise never lived there. There's a reason I moved out.

Thank you. Most Giants fans in Florida sit around and biatch about how bad things are here while never moving back to the Glorious North from whence they came. I'm glad you followed your dreams. Please convince any remaining friends and family to do the same.

I do my part up here in Canada to keep people the hell away from Florida.

"Yeah, it's nice. For the first few days......"

Cannucks make great tourists. Spend a pretty decent amount of money, real friendly and self-deprecating. Only real complaints are how slow you drive and how hilariously white you are. But the French Cannucks are comically rude. Literally. They are so rude they actually make you chuckle.

Rik01:Always been sinkholes in Fla? Probably, but I think the bigger question is why are there so many opening up now, when 50 years ago, one rarely heard about them?

Lets bypass the geological causes, shall we? We all know about that. You can take Global Warming mostly out of the formula too. Florida has always been hot, humid, rainy, swampy and right in the middle of the Hurricane Belt.

So, what has changed the most which has altered Florida drastically enough to transform the ecology and destabilize the land?

The population.

Florida has 3 or 4 times the population today than it did 50 years ago. Hundreds of thousands of acres of wild lands have been developed, changing the way water is absorbed into the ground, dumping millions of gallons of rainfall not into the aquifer, but shunting it into canals, rivers and streams and directly into the ocean.

Above and beyond the stress on the water table and changes in the way the water is routed, you have the observer effect.

Bottom line: there are more people now to notice sinkholes, and there are more houses for sinkholes to impact.

50 years ago, sinkholes still opened up all the time. You didn't hear about them because sinkholes opening in the woods impacted nobody. Sinkholes opening in a farmer's fields impacted the farmer, and might have been the talk of his neighbors if it was large enough. More to the point, sinkholes are everywhere you look in Florida. There are still dozens of sinkholes a month that occur in Florida that you will never hear about, simply because they don't have any impact on the human population.

A sinkhole in the middle of a housing development or a resort community, on the other hand, is national news.

In some areas of Florida, literally every lake that is round is a former sinkhole that has been plugged and filled.

At the same time, consumption of the underground water supplies has tripled and tripled again, dropping the levels and exposing underground caverns which used to be full and held up by water pressure.

This is true, but the sad reality is that the changes in the water table is driven less by urbanization than it is by an increase in agriculture. See, for example, the Plant City sinkhole swarm, which was triggered when strawberry farmers turned on the water taps and sprayed their field in an effort to save the crop from a freeze. See also the current fight over the cattle ranch being built next to Silver Springs, which was initially requesting permits to draw more water than the entire nearby city of Ocala.

It also exposed areas of limestone to increased acidic percolation, wearing it away faster and without the previous high water tables to help support it, gaps form and collapse.

The acidity of the water has little observable impact on the disollution of limestone in the timeframe you are talking about (50-75 years). Dissolution occurs on a geologic time scale, not a human one.

This is just plain silly.

Also, there used to be acres of wild woods, whose roots and ground cover not only held the soil in place but acted like an organic filter, helping to cut down on acidic absorption as well as dispersing it over a wider area.

And again, the dissolution of limestone isn't impacted at the time scale you are talking about. Impervious surfaces and suburban development cause a lot of ills, but they do not make the rocks dissolve faster.

Again, Mass development is not good for every chunk of land, but so long as developers make billions paving everything under and businesses see only major dollar signs by increased population growth, it's going to happen.

1,000 people a day move to Florida, a rate of immigration that has held steady for over a decade.

Should Florida build a border wall, or should it just outlaw further development and force people who have just moved to Florida to compete for existing houses?

Florida used to be nice, with thousands of acres of wild woods, vast stretches of tropical island beaches, thousands of lakes and ponds that did not, every year, become infested with brain eating algae due to low water levels and increased heat and thousands of acres of land were not altered in their original geographic profile.

Yup, people ruin everything. But the brain eating algae has always been here.

Plus, the alteration of the inshore breezes can and has altered the ocean currents along the beaches and tripled the rate of erosion, meaning seawalls start being considered.

That's silly. The beaches have always eroded, and at largely the same rate.

The difference is that people have now built on the beaches and literally drawn a line in the (reclaimed) sand, saying "no more."

If people were sensible and built well back from the waterline, we wouldn't have these problems.

I'm starting to look for another state to move to

Buh-bye. Thank you for helping alleviate Florida's people problem that you so eloquently waxed about, seemingly without recognizing that you too are part of the problem.

The good : Florida pre 1971, before Disney. Lots of orange groves, not much traffic , the beaches were clean and the land hadn't been raped.The Bad : EVERY ASSH*LE FROM NY, MASS, OHIO, CONN ECT ECT COMING HERE TO TELL US EVERYDAY HOW MUCH NICER IT IS BACK UP NORTH.

Do us a favor and go the hell back, the natives here really really hate all of you.

you know, florida has its problems like everywhere else, but if you live on the coast and love the beach/water like i do, it really is paradise. areas inland are good for agriculture and the equestrian lifestyle, and northern florida has beautiful rolling hills and an amazing climate.

where i live now, my morning "commute" takes me right up A1A and if i'm too lazy to walk to the beach i can drive there in about 3 minutes. i can also go diving/lobstering within 20 minutes of my house at a world-ranked dive spot (top 50), and am going to enjoy one (or two, or more) gorgeous theme parks this weekend without having to plan airfare or a hotel.

i laugh at the florida tag, too, but i've lived other places and it's actually really nice here.

tampaflacouple:The good : Florida pre 1971, before Disney. Lots of orange groves, not much traffic , the beaches were clean and the land hadn't been raped.The Bad : EVERY ASSH*LE FROM NY, MASS, OHIO, CONN ECT ECT COMING HERE TO TELL US EVERYDAY HOW MUCH NICER IT IS BACK UP NORTH.

Do us a favor and go the hell back, the natives here really really hate all of you.

Without the influx of northern transplants and seasonal residents (snowbirds), the state of FL would go bankrupt. A state can not be sustained with mullet fishin' and drankin' beer. Pre 1971 Florida also seriously lacked law enforcement. Over the past twenty-five years, the number of sexually based crimes reported (rape, child molestation, etc.) has risen faster than any other state in the country, yet FL still remains one of the top states for unreported sexual offences. FL is in the top five for number of Pedos & other sexual offenders per capita. Yeah, northerners brought laws and law enforcement...now yall have to worry about going to jail if you decide to fiddle with your little nieces and nephews.

domine:tampaflacouple: The good : Florida pre 1971, before Disney. Lots of orange groves, not much traffic , the beaches were clean and the land hadn't been raped.The Bad : EVERY ASSH*LE FROM NY, MASS, OHIO, CONN ECT ECT COMING HERE TO TELL US EVERYDAY HOW MUCH NICER IT IS BACK UP NORTH.

Do us a favor and go the hell back, the natives here really really hate all of you.

Without the influx of northern transplants and seasonal residents (snowbirds), the state of FL would go bankrupt. A state can not be sustained with mullet fishin' and drankin' beer. Pre 1971 Florida also seriously lacked law enforcement. Over the past twenty-five years, the number of sexually based crimes reported (rape, child molestation, etc.) has risen faster than any other state in the country, yet FL still remains one of the top states for unreported sexual offences. FL is in the top five for number of Pedos & other sexual offenders per capita. Yeah, northerners brought laws and law enforcement...now yall have to worry about going to jail if you decide to fiddle with your little nieces and nephews.

Without the influx of northern transplants and seasonal residents (snowbirds), the state of FL would go bankrupt. A state can not be sustained with mullet fishin' and drankin' beer. Pre 1971 Florida also seriously lacked law enforcement. Over the past twenty-five years, the number of sexually based crimes reported (rape, child molestation, etc.) has risen faster than any other state in the country, yet FL still remains one of the top states for unreported sexual offences. FL is in the top five for number of Pedos & other sexual offenders per capita. Yeah, northerners brought laws and law enforcement...now yall have to worry about going to jail if you decide to fiddle with your little nieces and nephews.

domine:Without the influx of northern transplants and seasonal residents (snowbirds), the state of FL would go bankrupt. A state can not be sustained with mullet fishin' and drankin' beer. Pre 1971 Florida also seriously lacked law enforcement. Over the past twenty-five years, the number of sexually based crimes reported (rape, child molestation, etc.) has risen faster than any other state in the country, yet FL still remains one of the top states for unreported sexual offences. FL is in the top five for number of Pedos & other sexual offenders per capita. Yeah, northerners brought laws and law enforcement...now yall have to worry about going to jail if you decide to fiddle with your little nieces and nephews.

Not sure that post make the point you wanted it to make.

Also: (adverb): in addition

Both points were made.

So the influx of northerners is directly linked to the rise in sex offenders and child molestation. Cool.

VenomousDuck:SordidEuphemism: Anyone who's ever lived in Florida will some day return.The state does not relinquish its claim to you as freely as you may think.

Is this ever true....we moved here, stayed almost three years, and I fled for NC swearing I'd never be back. Now here I am again with no one to really blame but myself.

Same here. Florida native, lived here for 36 years, tried to live out of the state for 6 and never got over being homesick. So now I'm back, and I have come to terms with the crowds, the traffic, the crazies, the rednecks and the endless supply of strip malls.

FLMountainMan:domine: Without the influx of northern transplants and seasonal residents (snowbirds), the state of FL would go bankrupt. A state can not be sustained with mullet fishin' and drankin' beer. Pre 1971 Florida also seriously lacked law enforcement. Over the past twenty-five years, the number of sexually based crimes reported (rape, child molestation, etc.) has risen faster than any other state in the country, yet FL still remains one of the top states for unreported sexual offences. FL is in the top five for number of Pedos & other sexual offenders per capita. Yeah, northerners brought laws and law enforcement...now yall have to worry about going to jail if you decide to fiddle with your little nieces and nephews.

Not sure that post make the point you wanted it to make.

Also: (adverb): in addition

Both points were made.

So the influx of northerners is directly linked to the rise in sex offenders and child molestation. Cool.

So many opinions.Fact remains, the climate attracts people to the Sunshine State, and many of them will remain.There is so much pressure on our water resources. There's the Kissimmee River debacle, the desecration of the Everglades, the dead big lakes and the ones that are dying...it makes me mad/sad, it sure as hell is not the old Florida anymore...

If the state takes an aggressive stance and legislates water restrictions, you can bet there will be hell to pay.If the agribusinesses that provide jobs and food are prevented from using pesticides, herbicides and fungicides, there won't be jobs or food.If you 'n' me just conserve water, our neighbors on the coasts won't. Or vice versa.

I've lived in this part of the backwoods Ridge for decades, and can still eat the bass and bream, still getting that stinky ol' water from my well, and still ride my horse to check fences. I dunno. Maybe my grandkids will do the same...maybe not.

50 years ago, sinkholes still opened up all the time. You didn't hear about them because sinkholes opening in the woods impacted nobody. Sinkholes opening in a farmer's fields impacted the farmer, and might have been the talk of his neighbors if it was large enough. More to the point, sinkholes are everywhere you look in Florida. There are still dozens of sinkholes a month that occur in Florida that you will never hear about, simply because they don't have any impact on the human population. (snip)

Actually, in many ways I agree with you, but I disagree on the effects of 'acid' rain on the limestone, since there's several reports out on the subject, and not just concerning Florida.

You'd have to be ignorant to not grasp the long term effects of several million people moving into Florida over the years and straining the resources of the already ecologically sensitive land. People bring massive changes to everything. Just the amount of land needed to support them houses, hotels, parking lots, paved roads, ect is massive.

Several geologists and oceanographers have noted the ability to change the inshore air currents by developing a shoreline. Basically, poking a bunch of high rises on or near a beach acts like a cliff. Most cliffs occurring naturally along shores have tiny or no beaches.

Harbor Branch Oceanographic is 15 miles from where I live. They also have a branch of the Smithsonian there. They've also studied the effects of development along shorelines, especially when places use breakwaters.

Simply put, major development can change the natural conditions of a beach by altering off shore water currents through the manipulation of the inshore breezes. Yes, the beaches have been eroding naturally for years, but the process has been greatly accelerated. That increase has been linked to creating miles of artificial cliffs.

Conditions no one thought about years ago have popped up and have been linked directly to the substantial development of the land.

1000 people a day. X 1 year. X 10 years. That's a lot of wild lands being removed.

I used Google Earth to look at my city awhile back, thinking about finding another chunk of land to move to, preferably one with fewer neighbors. I was appalled to discover that the city appears to be 90% developed now, when 30 years ago, it was roughly 40%. Huge swaths of wild woods where I used to play and camp as a kid are gone, replaced by housing developments.

My grandparents lived a few miles from me, in a single house on a wooded block, surrounded by empty blocks, in an 'undeveloped' development consisting of a 10 block square. There were maybe 20 houses in the entire area.

Now, there's close to 400. Building codes changed, requiring homes to be built on filled lots for flood control. The means most places there appear to be sitting on grassy Pyramids. (Cutting the lawn for many must be a bit problematic due to the sharp angle of the lawn.)

This sends tons of rainwater cascading off the properties and into the drainage ditches, bypassing previously wooded, low level lots that used to act as kind of like shallow holding ponds, allowing water to seep back into the ground. From the ditches, the water hits the huge main canals and dumps directly into the Indian River Lagoon.

Over 30 years ago, there was some problems with tons of fresh water seasonally impacting the brackish lagoon and all of the chemicals and trash it carried with it.

That problem has become a whole lot worse.

The city has also required many homes to close their water wells, connecting them up to lines run from the city water plant, which gets it's water from very deep wells. As blocks of land got developed, people discovered they had to sink their wells deeper.

More people per square mile equals a whole shiatload of water consumed. Sink holes started popping up. In some areas, the water table dropped so much along the shorelines that salt water began to seep into the freshwater aquifer.

Once, heavily surrounded by agriculture, folks got used to opening the valves on artesian wells and just forgetting about them. Years ago, the local government started having people close the valves. Old wells (basically a rusted pipe poking up out of the ground spewing sulfur water) were located and capped.

The acidity of the water has little observable impact on the disollution of limestone in the timeframe you are talking about (50-75 years). Dissolution occurs on a geologic time scale, not a human one.

This is just plain silly.

Factor in the millions of cars and trucks on the roads now in the state. Their exhaust, though cleaner than before, still creates an acidic rain. Not to mention the millions of barrels of assorted lubricants, cleaners and fluids used to maintain the cars.

It's already been proven, time and time again, that even what seems to be minor use by a population of a section of land can and has changed the environment drastically.

Consider this. The majority of the homes in the county have septic systems, not connections to the city sewage treatment plant. Many folks tend to dump things like the water they used to wash the floors, with chemical cleaners in it, down the drain. People wash their hands with acidic soap. Some use various forms of commercial grease removers -- like mechanics. It all goes down the drain.

A few people doing this makes no difference. Hundreds doing this means the effluent as it filters down through the ground is going to increase the damage to the limestone.

Maybe you recall, some years ago, concern being mentioned about ancient granite statues in a heavily polluted city, getting so damaged by the pollution, that what thousands of years of weather could not do, was happening in years. Some statues lost their faces.

Granite, if I'm correct, is a form of Limestone.

BTW. When I came to Florida around 1953, it was a great place. My city was a great town. I grew up playing in acres and acres of wild woods, surrounded by scores of wonderful wild animals, clean, fresh air, clean water and vast, deliciously lonely beaches on the Atlantic Ocean. You could fish in the lagoon for a day and take home enough seafood to keep you for a week or more.