Mistweaver Monks right now seem balanced - I love the changes. At first I was worried about the nerfs, but with them actually fixing all the scaling bugs that existed with other abilities, we're in a very nice place right now.

Chi Burst seems to be the definite go-to ability for 25 man raid healing, depending on positioning ofcourse. The fact that it has a small cast time makes no difference as auto attacks persist during the cast. It also has no cooldown and a 2 Chi cost, which, for high AoE sessions, can be 'spammed', the 40 yard range makes this brilliant for not-so-stacked group healing, as long as a clear path can be seen and positioning can be found. Another thing to note about Chi Burst is that Eminence seems to proc from each enemy target hit.

Imagine this possible scenario for Chi Burst: Yor'sahj Heroic 25 - Black (adds), Red (raid damage - stack at melee), Yellow (boss CDs reduced) combination. You, as a monk Healer could stand far enough back that you're near or at the back of the raid, but still in melee range so Chi generation is no problem with Jab. The adds spawn, and all stack in the raid too - this would be a prime time to 'spam' Chi Burst, enabling the burst to hit not only the raid, but also the enemies, proccing Eminence heals from each add hit and the boss. Situations like this Chi Burst, if kept in this state, could allow monks to dominate in situational AoE.

Zen Sphere also seems like a great ability that could easily be switched with Chi Burst on a regular basis between bosses, not only does the sphere heal the target (probably best used on Tanks) for a hefty amount per tick, but it also damages a nearby enemy, procing a nice Eminence heal. The explosion heals for roughly double the amount of the ticks, to everyone around that target and damaging targets too. Much like Chi Burst, this could be extremely beneficial for periods of high AoE damage, using Chi for nothing but Zen Sphere could mean Monks excel at 'burst' stacked raid healing in similar situations as Chi Burst.

Chi Wave seems alright, I assume it's directed more at 10 man raiding teams with the 5 jump limit. It seems to work similarly to the Priest ability, jumping from friendly to enemy targets. It has a 5 second CD and only jumps 20 yards max.

The Tier 2 talents really do seem to be the deciding factor in regards of how Mistweaver healing will work. This is all speculation though as there's been no raid testing since the changes so everything I've said could be all completely wrong and stupid.

Zen Sphere also seems like a great ability that could easily be switched with Chi Burst on a regular basis between bosses, not only does the sphere heal the target (probably best used on Tanks) for a hefty amount per tick, but it also damages a nearby enemy, procing a nice Eminence heal. The explosion heals for roughly double the amount of the ticks, to everyone around that target and damaging targets too. Much like Chi Burst, this could be extremely beneficial for periods of high AoE damage, using Chi for nothing but Zen Sphere could mean Monks excel at 'burst' stacked raid healing in similar situations as Chi Burst.

You do know ZS is not scaling right? Or im assume it dont. Its way to powerfull compared to the other two abilities

That is the problem atm. The spec is defined around the t2 talents with nothing else around to cover. A healing class shouldn't be dependent on a talent, none of the other healing specs are make or break with a talent. They have enough tools in their boxes and the talents are added bonuses.

If you removed all the talents from all the healing classes, MWs would be unplayable in a end game form. Even with the t2 talents, they are pretty unplayable in an end game capacity.

Point being that this class is right now solely dependent on whichever t2 talent is chosen. ZS seems to be the talent of choice with CB right behind it. Both are being used to cover for the lack of any other useful AoE that was nerfed/removed.

For Mistweaver Monks, the Tier 2 talents aid multitarget healing in most respects. You will be able to heal effectively with any of the Tier 2 talents, and that's what matters. We can't say for sure if ZS is scaling properly, however it does seem in line with Chi Burst in terms of Chi cost to general throughput (ZS does edge out a bit due to the HoT component) but nothing extraordinary.

Well the amount healing and dmg ZS does is alot better then Chi wave and Chi burst. Well Chi burst might be better if there is loads of adds and like you said 25man when you stand behind all other else

For Mistweaver Monks, the Tier 2 talents aid multitarget healing in most respects. You will be able to heal effectively with any of the Tier 2 talents, and that's what matters. We can't say for sure if ZS is scaling properly, however it does seem in line with Chi Burst in terms of Chi cost to general throughput (ZS does edge out a bit due to the HoT component) but nothing extraordinary.

Without those 3 talents, what do MWs have for reliable AoE healing now in an end game capacity?

They are different abilities that tailor to different situations. Assuming we're looking at an AoE period in a fight, the healing of Zen Sphere is similar to that of Chi Burst.

To constantly refresh and explode Zen Sphere, it costs 4 Chi - this is for the initial application and the recast to explode. 4 Chi for each 'cycle' of AoE healing, which hits for around 40k (this is in Stormwind without modifiers so it could be inconsistent).

Chi Burst offers a different approach, offering a more consistent throughput option, costing only 2 Chi for ~20-25k heal (again, in Stormwind - no modifiers) per person. This not only allows the Monk to do other things during this, such as using the Chi instead to refresh Serpent's Zeal for instance, but could also lead to more casts = more chance of those casts critting, thus possibly outhealing ZS.

As stated before the positioning of the raid is different too. ZS only has a 10 yard explosion range where it heals and damages, Chi Burst has a 40 yard target range and if cleverly positioned, can go through the majority of a spread raid during periods of AoE.

I'm not denying that Zen Sphere looks and may be better than Chi Burst, especially when factoring the HoT component, but the healing that Zen Sphere does is not outrageous.

---------- Post added 2012-07-15 at 07:14 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Rege

Without those 3 talents, what do MWs have for reliable AoE healing now in an end game capacity?

Chi Torpedo offers a substantial heal with, what it seems, no target cap.

Renewing Mists has not been removed, and can still spread to a number of targets and can also be refreshed with the use of Thunder Focus Tea (45 seconds is not a long time).

And also Eminence is still a very VERY valuable tool for us to raid-heal (not necessarily 'AoE' heal), this was not being used to it's full potential before but now I believe it will.

Spinning Crane Kick, however low the healing is or high the mana cost, is still a 5 player AoE that can be alright when used effectively.

Also forgetting our passive Mastery, giving Healing Spheres that heal for a significant amount. I saw these scattered all over the place before the nerfs. The reason I saw so many was because Renewing Mists was keeping people topped off so well that they were never needed or used to their full potential.

Now add in the Tier 2 talent choice, and you've got yourself an all around, DIFFERENT healer than the other classes.

I'm not saying we're the best, but saying we have nothing is, I think, wrong. It's a new class, a new idea and the conventional ways of healing may not apply to it. We've just got to see where it goes.

I do have to admit though, with the fixed scaling to Torpedo and burst, it does make them very interesting in 25's. Similar to priests divine star, you can imagine MW's lining up Chi bursts and Torpedoes all over the place! xD

Mistweaver Monks right now seem balanced - I love the changes. At first I was worried about the nerfs, but with them actually fixing all the scaling bugs that existed with other abilities, we're in a very nice place right now.

This is one of the most ridiculous statements in this entire thread. As we currently stand we are the least attractive healer in the game. Why would you take a monk over a class that has multiple tools to raid heal? Why would you take a monk to MT heal when you can bring another class that can do it with better longevity? ...Seriously play the class some before making a statement like that.

I think you are missing the fact they removed some of the play style that make monks unique instead of tweaking numbers. This basically forces us into an inferior melee healing style and very very unattractive for progression raiding.

This is one of the most ridiculous statements in this entire thread. As we currently stand we are the least attractive healer in the game. Why would you take a monk over a class that has multiple tools to raid heal? Why would you take a monk to MT heal when you can bring another class that can do it with better longevity? ...Seriously play the class some before making a statement like that.

I think you are missing the fact they removed some of the play style that make monks unique instead of tweaking numbers. This basically forces us into an inferior melee healing style and very very unattractive for progression raiding.

I think you will find that, if you check his youtube channel, he has played the class, a lot actually.

Also, for the record, I believe's Redfern's Whole POV is from a 25 man perspective which has yet to be tested on BETA. So we shall jsut have to wait and see.

The whole Mistweaver Monk 'playstyle' consisted of Renewing Mist and Uplift, and was hideously OP in a 10 man environment. Do you think healing atleast twice the amount of any other class using mainly just 2 abilities is "the play style that make monks unique"

Also please note:

Originally Posted by Redfern

This is all speculation though as there's been no raid testing since the changes so everything I've said could be all completely wrong and stupid.

I never said this was cold hard fact, I merely stated what I thought the changes would bring to the table taking into consideration mainly 25 man raiding. The model used before would not work well at all in a 25 man environment, our main ability capping at 10 players and having it constantly refreshed onto those same 10 players? That's one problem I see with it and I'm personally glad they changed it.

Just to wrap it up, we do not know what Monk healing is like in raiding situations since there's been no proper testing. If I'm wrong about this and we're scraping the bottom of the barrel in terms of healing and our toolkit lacking, then I apologise for any offense my posts caused by stating my opinions and thoughts.

The whole Mistweaver Monk 'playstyle' consisted of Renewing Mist and Uplift, and was hideously OP in a 10 man environment. Do you think healing atleast twice the amount of any other class using mainly just 2 abilities is "the play style that make monks unique"

Also please note:

I never said this was cold hard fact, I merely stated what I thought the changes would bring to the table taking into consideration mainly 25 man raiding. The model used before would not work well at all in a 25 man environment, our main ability capping at 10 players and having it constantly refreshed onto those same 10 players? That's one problem I see with it and I'm personally glad they changed it.

Just to wrap it up, we do not know what Monk healing is like in raiding situations since there's been no proper testing. If I'm wrong about this and we're scraping the bottom of the barrel in terms of healing and our toolkit lacking, then I apologise for any offense my posts caused by stating my opinions and thoughts.

The problem with your statement is you're trying to relate 'playstyle' and monks being "hideously OP in a 10 man environment," which could very well be strictly a scaling problem. The mechanic only worked in 10m environments yes, but now it doesn't work anywhere besides 5 mans. Not sure about you, but it doesn't fix any problem besides the "hideously OP," making them unable to raid heal is quite the opposite of any form of fix.

On the note of Chi Wave, Zen Sphere, and Chi Burst, those utilities are too unpredictable and require perfect micromanaging. It's not enough.

Surging Mists costs too much, can't be used unless in moderate tank healing.
Renewing Mists isn't manageable anymore, I look at it just as the Priest spell.
Stronger Melee Healing?
We need a new AoE, or some way to return partial functionality to Renewing.
Blizzard is 100% against the idea of copying another class, a new kind of raid heal mechanic that isn't as mechanical as Renewing+Uplift mayhaps.

The mechanic only worked in 10m environments yes, but now it doesn't work anywhere besides 5 mans.

Juggling numbers would not change the way the mechanic works. It wasn't hideously OP in 10 man because of the numbers alone, the mechanics used were mundane and allowed the whole 10 man raid to be HoT'd up for an unlimited amount of time, it almost forced you to use all Chi on Uplift instead of utlising the other abilities that we had. To keep up both Serpent's Zeal and Renewing Mists you needed to be hitting something constantly gaining Chi. Switching to adds or using/doing something that did not generate Chi would then mean ditching one of the two named above, usually Serpent's Zeal and focusing entirely on Uplift.

With scaling down, Renewing Mists wouldn't be worth it, and we'd almost be in the same boat as we're in now. With too little scaling down, we'll still be forced to keep 100% uptime on it. It's one of the other.

I don't understand why everyone loved this model so much, it made no sense in 25 mans, is mundane, boring and overpowered. It did not allow any gaps in playstyle and dismissed our fun abilities being used in order to not miss Chi to refresh Renewing Mists.

Originally Posted by Frost13s

On the note of Chi Wave, Zen Sphere, and Chi Burst, those utilities are too unpredictable and require perfect micromanaging.

I don't understand the problem with these abilities - Chi Burst requires positioning, Chi Wave requires targets to be within 20 yards of each other to use effectively and Zen Sphere is almost a 'fire and forget' ability unless used for AoE healing, where the raid will be stacked and not need any positioning awareness.

We will have to see the future changes being made to Mistweaver Monks to see the direction they're going, especially in the 'new' 25 man raids that have not been tested yet.

I don't understand why everyone loved this model so much, it made no sense in 25 mans, is mundane, boring and overpowered. It did not allow any gaps in playstyle and dismissed our fun abilities being used in order to not miss Chi to refresh Renewing Mists.

I didnt like ReM+Uplift spam model. As you said it was booring and you didnt use Chi to anything else. So im glad they change it but take away or only aoe heal (SCK is to shit to be called a heal) wasnt that great wihtout giving us anything else. Soothing Mist is also to weak to keep a tank alive so we cant even tank heal. The only thing i find working is melee healing and use ZS and detonate it just befor it expires

you should NOT forget that with this new patch came big changes on the torpedo, which is now a very strong healing raid talent imo, about 25 to 30k for each torpedo, with the possibility to chain 3 of them, that's pretty good

Juggling numbers would not change the way the mechanic works. It wasn't hideously OP in 10 man because of the numbers alone, the mechanics used were mundane and allowed the whole 10 man raid to be HoT'd up for an unlimited amount of time, it almost forced you to use all Chi on Uplift instead of utlising the other abilities that we had. To keep up both Serpent's Zeal and Renewing Mists you needed to be hitting something constantly gaining Chi. Switching to adds or using/doing something that did not generate Chi would then mean ditching one of the two named above, usually Serpent's Zeal and focusing entirely on Uplift.

With scaling down, Renewing Mists wouldn't be worth it, and we'd almost be in the same boat as we're in now. With too little scaling down, we'll still be forced to keep 100% uptime on it. It's one of the other.

I don't understand why everyone loved this model so much, it made no sense in 25 mans, is mundane, boring and overpowered. It did not allow any gaps in playstyle and dismissed our fun abilities being used in order to not miss Chi to refresh Renewing Mists.

I don't understand the problem with these abilities - Chi Burst requires positioning, Chi Wave requires targets to be within 20 yards of each other to use effectively and Zen Sphere is almost a 'fire and forget' ability unless used for AoE healing, where the raid will be stacked and not need any positioning awareness.

We will have to see the future changes being made to Mistweaver Monks to see the direction they're going, especially in the 'new' 25 man raids that have not been tested yet.

I didn't like the model either, but it was the only thing we had. Lowering the healing output is one thing, but lowering the healing output and breaking an ability with no real resolution isn't being any better. You seem to be misunderstanding that there's no stable raid healing spell anymore, those 3 utility based ones aren't spammable. You're attacking the older model when there is no model now, as you can't raid heal with it. You will not enjoy life if you try to raid heal at this given point in time with those 3 abilities, or well, one of them.

You can't spam surging, your mana will fry. Soothing is too weak. One of those utility spells aren't enough. They broke our ability to raid heal and you're trying to defend it? You can complain about the old model, but calling it an improvement is highly illogical.

Yes, Xuen should be triggering Eminence (but only for a Mistweaver in Serpent stance; always triggering it is a bug in the current build). He also will soon learn a bit about how to tank; increased armor and health, and if you’re a Brewmaster, he gets a provoke and increased threat generation.

Seams like BMs getting own type of this. Mabye they will work out something for MWs at the same time. better then just the eminance proc