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I haven't said that or eluded to that once. Peyton's sole SB ring also happened to be a year when the Colts actually played some sound defense as well.

Look at 2009 Eli. He was arguably better that year than the rest (2011 excluded) but it didn't really matter much because we had Can't Cover Brown and Aaron Rouse on our team due to KP going down. Sometimes it doesn't matter how good you are as a QB because you have some idiot on the defense who constantly makes mistakes in the secondary or perhaps your DL failed to generate any pressure in a crucial playoff game.

I got the impression by you, whether it was intentional or not, by saying QB regular season accomplishments, mean more than a SB win, which is the team. So the rest of the team wasn't playing in the first scenario too then?

I haven't said that or eluded to that once. Peyton's sole SB ring also happened to be a year when the Colts actually played some sound defense as well.

Look at 2009 Eli. He was arguably better that year than the rest (2011 excluded) but it didn't really matter much because we had Can't Cover Brown and Aaron Rouse on our team due to KP going down. Sometimes it doesn't matter how good you are as a QB because you have some idiot on the defense who constantly makes mistakes in the secondary or perhaps your DL failed to generate any pressure in a crucial playoff game.

But people don't look at it that way, especially when it comes to Eli.

You can see evidence now.
Aaron Rodgers played poorly against us because his offensive line sucks. Maybe that is true.

But when we were losing games, it was ELI SUCKS OMG1!11 2010 ELI. Doesn't matter that our receivers were dropping everything. Doesn't matter that Ahmad was fumbling the ball, doesn't matter that our defense couldn't get any pressure and our secondary got beat on every play.
Don't get me wrong, Eli wasn't playing well, but people were acting like he was the sole reason we were losing games.

I got the impression by you, whether it was intentional or not, by saying QB regular season accomplishments, mean more than a SB win, which is the team. So the rest of the team wasn't playing in the first scenario too then?

Many average or even bad players have earned SB rings in NFL history. The same can't be said about the MVP award because it is based more on a player's individual talent and what he produced on the field in a 16 game stretch. Not every victory is because Eli carried the team and the same can be said about Peyton and Brady too. Sure, Peyton helped the Broncos beat the Chargers from a 24 point deficit but he also had help from Chris Harris getting two INTS against Rivers.

A SB is a big game but it is what it is. Another 60 minute period. How much does that weigh against the rest of the season? Was Eli's playoff run and SB performance enough to say he was the best QB that season even over MVP Aaron Rodgers?

But when we were losing games, it was ELI SUCKS OMG1!11 2010 ELI. Doesn't matter that our receivers were dropping everything. Doesn't matter that Ahmad was fumbling the ball, doesn't matter that our defense couldn't get any pressure and our secondary got beat on every play.
Don't get me wrong, Eli wasn't playing well, but people were acting like he was the sole reason we were losing games.

Live by the glory of the QB, die by the glory of the QB. 2010 Eli wasn't good at all but he obviously wasn't the sole reason for our troubles. You sort of tie into my point in that people focus too much on a few players when it comes to victories or losses when it is much more complex than that. David Diehl has two SB rings but there are a ton of OL I'd rather have.

It depends on which accomplishment you want to cite. A Superbowl is a team accomplishment and since there are a decent amount of examples in NFL history of baddies winning one or at least getting to the dance (Grossman again haha), I don't think it should be weighted as much versus achievements that are more individual like regular season MVPs, game-to-game performances, and so forth.

Heck, the first Manning is considered a pretty good QB too and people recognize he couldn't do much with what the Saints provided him in the 70's.

I don't see anything wrong with running up the score. As long as there is time left on the clock, you keep pushing.

This is where I run into a problem with your logic. How do you explain not crediting Eli's regular season last year with no running game and a poor defense during the most part of the regular season, he literally caried the team in a bunch of games. How about the degree of turnover at positions for Eli vs. Payton? Payton has had some amazing wr during his time in Indy. What about all of the road playoff wins for Eli, I mean the two times we went to the Super Bowl we had some rough roads there, even historic. Wouldn't you also say it would be hard to get a MVP award or make game to game accomplishments individually, why is it that Manning gets credit for those things as an individual but for the Super Bowls and playoffs it is all because of the team, Eli was the one throwing the ball in Green Bay the first playoff trip there, and what it was like 5 degrees, yet that gains no individual merits?

Many average or even bad players have earned SB rings in NFL history. The same can't be said about the MVP award because it is based more on a player's individual talent and what he produced on the field in a 16 game stretch. Not every victory is because Eli carried the team and the same can be said about Peyton and Brady too. Sure, Peyton helped the Broncos beat the Chargers from a 24 point deficit but he also had help from Chris Harris getting two INTS against Rivers.

A SB is a big game but it is what it is. Another 60 minute period. How much does that weigh against the rest of the season? Was Eli's playoff run and SB performance enough to say he was the best QB that season even over MVP Aaron Rodgers?

I don't know about you, but a SB means more to me than a pretty season complete with shiny stats. It isn't really just "another 60 game" its the Superbowl championship! What do you play the game for? To throw for X amount of TD's? No, the ultimate goal is the SB. And to say it means less in a QB's career because he doesn't always have the great reg stats, but "just wins the SB" is not true. Eli won those SB's because he helped bring the team there and played great. He didn't ride the coattails like some third string scrub. These facts are what will cement him as a legendary QB in NFL history.

This is where I run into a problem with your logic. How do you explain not crediting Eli's regular season last year with no running game and a poor defense during the most part of the regular season, he literally caried the team in a bunch of games. How about the degree of turnover at positions for Eli vs. Payton? Payton has had some amazing wr during his time in Indy. What about all of the road playoff wins for Eli, I mean the two times we went to the Super Bowl we had some rough roads there, even historic. Wouldn't you also say it would be hard to get a MVP award or make game to game accomplishments individually, why is it that Manning gets credit for those things as an individual but for the Super Bowls and playoffs it is all because of the team, Eli was the one throwing the ball in Green Bay the first playoff trip there, and what it was like 5 degrees, yet that gains no individual merits?

This is where I run into a problem with your logic. How do you explain not crediting Eli's regular season last year with no running game and a poor defense during the most part of the regular season, he literally caried the team in a bunch of games. How about the degree of turnover at positions for Eli vs. Payton? Payton has had some amazing wr during his time in Indy. What about all of the road playoff wins for Eli, I mean the two times we went to the Super Bowl we had some rough roads there, even historic. Wouldn't you also say it would be hard to get a MVP award or make game to game accomplishments individually, why is it that Manning gets credit for those things as an individual but for the Super Bowls and playoffs it is all because of the team, Eli was the one throwing the ball in Green Bay the first playoff trip there, and what it was like 5 degrees, yet that gains no individual merits?

You won't find me criticizing most of his 2011 REGULAR season because the defense didn't really put him into too many good spots late in the game and having the worst OL in the league made things much worse as well. The playoffs are were I have an issue because it seems that people either forget or overlook how much of a team effort that run really was.

Defense allowed 0 points to Atlanta and we had 170+ yards on the ground. JaMarcus Russell would of been victorious on that day.

Defense did a good job against Rodgers in GB by keeping them out of reach majority of the game. Eli had a great game but it wasn't him carrying the Giants at all this round.

SF game was pretty damn memorable for Eli. Didn't he have 60 pass attempts without turning it over once? Definitely an elite performance.

SB against the Pats was a fine game as well. Manningham pass was the big moment but I think Tuck was once again outshined as he was the one responsible for forcing the intentional grounding against Brady and had another sack against him later on with more pressures.

Sort of ranted there but what it comes down to for me is...Does all of Eli's legendary moments outweigh the vast amount of years that Peyton has showed play-by-play consistency and complete ownage of defenses pre-snap?

I don't know about you, but a SB means more to me than a pretty season complete with shiny stats. It isn't really just "another 60 game" its the Superbowl championship! What do you play the game for? To throw for X amount of TD's? No, the ultimate goal is the SB. And to say it means less in a QB's career because he doesn't always have the great reg stats, but "just wins the SB" is not true. Eli won those SB's because he helped bring the team there and played great. He didn't ride the coattails like some third string scrub. These facts are what will cement him as a legendary QB in NFL history.

A SB means more to me as a fan of a team as well but not nearly as much compared to you when we are solely talking about a player's individual talent like Eli. The problem I have is with people trying to prop up QBs based on achievements that are clearly awarded to teams. You don't see anyone arguing "Well Tuck has 2 SB championships so he is clearly better than Julius Peppers." Where is the logic in discussing the amount of victories a QB has found himself in when there are two whole units he barely has influence with in regards to the defense or special teams? It's not like basketball where Kobe can be involved in every play or baseball where a player can both bat good and play amazing outfield.

You want to tell me that Eli has an underrated throwing arm? That's fine

You want to mention that Eli was clutch for us in the 4th quarter with the 16 TDs? Ok!

But there is no way you can convince me that QBs should be measured by championship or playoff victories when so many of those games come down to which team plays the most balanced football in all 3 phases of the game. I simply disagree with how you are trying to include Eli in the Peyton and Brady circle.