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I’ll say it again: Pornography hurts people. It destroys relationships, prevents people from developing healthy sex lives, cripples the sense of empathy, and generally hinders people’s ability to form the kinds of connections that make life interesting and worthwhile.

There are a lot of reasons not to use porn, but in this post I’ll stick to how it negatively affects people’s relationships and prevents people from developing the kinds of sexual relationships they hope to.

Women know most men watch porn. There are a few women who have absorbed the message that they are here to be used sexually to the point that they, too, get aroused by watching porn (more on this later), but most women are at least mildly bothered by pornography, whether they want to admit it out loud or not. A lot of women have been told so many times that men have some kind of “right” to use pornography that they will tolerate it in their relationships despite the fact that it hurts their feelings. Still other women will make it clear to their partners that they will not tolerate pornography in their relationships, only to find out after some time that their partner has been lying to them and using it anyway. Then there are the women who find men who will respect their wishes and not use pornography, but these women usually still worry that their partners’ previous use of pornography has created desires and expectations that they can’t or don’t want to fulfill.

I’ve never dated anyone who used porn openly in our relationship, but I have a sense of empathy, so I can tell you what it probably feels like. I know that a large majority of women in my mother’s generation tolerated the existence of Playboy, Penthouse, and Hustler in their bathrooms, but I never found such a magazine in my house as a child, and I’d like to think that the reason was that my father cared for my mother’s feelings and didn’t want to do something that would hurt her. Or maybe once I was born he began to look at the women in pornography as other men’s daughters. I never asked, but I do know that porn was not a part of my life while I was growing up and that I am glad it wasn’t. Other women grew up in houses where it was assumed that men had a “right” to look at images of naked women who weren’t their wives, so they expected their partners to do the same when they got older, even though they were just as uncomfortable with porn as their mothers were.

It isn’t jealousy that lies at the center of women’s aversion to porn. Men want to paint it in such a light because it removes the responsibility for the damage porn use creates from them and places it on their partners. That is patently dishonest and unfair, and places a double burden on the woman. Not only does she have to tolerate having her feelings ignored and her presence disrespected in her own home (or in her own relationship), but she has to feel guilty for her own natural discomfort and conceive of her own rightful vexation as a character flaw. That’s what pornography does to women: it brings a huge set of worrisome issues into their lives, then tries to blame them for the fact that they are bothered.

When women see pornography, whether they’ve thought about it or not, they instinctively recognize that the women they are seeing are not being treated like human beings, that they do not want to be treated like the women in porn are treated, that the men they have sex with might be looking at them the way they must look at the women in pornography, and that their partners might not ever be satisfied with them unless they allow themselves to be treated thusly. It is understandable that women would not wish to have their partners use pornography, considering these factors, but when they object, they’re told that they’re being catty and jealous, and that “boys will be boys,” which is something they’ll just have to live with. Think for a second about the mental turmoil that can cause. Men who use pornography in relationships are basically telling their partners that they care more about their bullshit “right” to use images of women being exploited sexually than they do about their partner’s emotional comfort in the relationship. It’s not only insensitive, but it’s also evidence of a disgustingly arrogant sense of entitlement.

It’s easy enough to empathize with women who have to deal with a partner who refuses to stop using porn despite the fact that it hurts her feelings. What about the woman who believes she’s in a relationship with a man who cares enough about her feelings to stop using porn, only to find out he’s been lying to her about it? Finding out someone has been using pornography and lying about it is akin to finding out they’ve been having an affair. It’s a betrayal in a very serious sense because it means that that person has decided that their desire to do something is more important than the negative impact it will have on their relationship and their partner’s feelings. A woman who discovers her partner has been lying to her about using porn comes to several disturbing realizations. First, she discovers that he cares more about his supposed “right” to use women’s bodies as masturbatory tools than he does about her feelings. Second, she realizes that he has been using women outside of the relationship in a sexual way by proxy. Third, she discovers that he does not see women, including her, the way she thought he did; once a woman discovers that her partner uses pornography, she has to admit that they never saw eye-to-eye on women’s status as human beings in relation to men. At best, that means she has to admit that her partner has a Madonna/whore complex, and worse, she has to accept the fact that he doesn’t see her as a full human being but rather a set of essentialized characteristics. Fourth, she may look back over their sexual relationship and remember things that suggest that her partner was treating her or thinking about her like the women are treated and thought about in porn. At a minimum, she will begin to doubt every aspect of her sexual relationship and wonder whether it was ever based on true affection. Fifth, she has to compare herself to the kinds of women one most often sees in porn, and will likely begin to have doubts about how attractive she is or has been to her partner, and will also likely begin to have serious self-esteem problems and self-doubt that she didn’t have before. Finally, she will wonder how she can stay in a relationship in which her trust has been violated and in which she will never be sure that she is seen as a full human being.

What about the “lucky” women who find someone who actually does respect their feelings and does not use porn in the relationship? Good deal for those women, right? It would be, but there is always the lingering worry that their partner has been exposed to pornography, has absorbed its messages, and secretly wishes to recreate what he’s seen in porn. She will always wonder whether she is actually attractive to him, she will always compare herself to the kinds of women he has masturbated to all his life, she will always wonder whether he secretly desires more of the kinds of scenarios he has used to reach orgasm since boyhood. And rightly so. Orgasm is an extremely powerful conditioning device. What we pair with orgasm we tend to prefer. Or maybe she’ll wonder whether she ought to distance herself as much as possible from the kinds of sex he has seen in porn. Maybe he thinks there are “two kinds of women,” and only the good ones, the non-whores, are worthy of dating, while the other type are there for him to use sexually via the internet. Either way, she won’t feel free to express her own sexuality naturally.

Women in all of these types of relationships are stuck in a terrible conundrum: they want their sexual relationships to be loving and special, and therefore they probably want to make their partners happy, but they worry that doing so would require them to allow themselves to be treated like women are treated in porn. In all of these cases, the entirety of the issue revolves around men’s sexuality and their sexual desires, with women having to conform their own sexual behaviors to the desires pornography and the Madonna/whore complex have created in men. Women’s sexuality is entirely absent from the picture (more on that in the next post).

Men who use porn often approach their sexual experiences in vastly different ways from men who don’t. I’ve met plenty of dudes who claim that they can make the distinction between porn and real life, but I don’t believe it’s as easy as all that. There is a clearly one-sided dynamic in porn in which the woman is there to fulfill the desires of the man, not the other way around. The fact that she pretends to be pumped about whatever she’s doing is just another part of that dynamic; actual depictions of female pleasure in porn are about as common as Civil War re-enacters that aren’t racists, but men expect women to look enthusiastic about what’s being done to them in porn, or else it just isn’t fun. I mean, who wants to feel guilty about using someone like a blow-up doll? In porn, the woman’s body is there for the viewing and for the using, and it is moved around and positioned for the pleasure of the man. Female pleasure is at best a niche interest, and is most often either completely disregarded or faked for the man’s enjoyment. There’s no love in porn, either. It’s purely about male lust and female acquiescence, and that’s the mild stuff. I won’t even begin to get into the ever-increasing array of porn that features women being choked, having their heads shoved into toilets, or being slapped and called filthy names. I’m not going to claim that men who watch porn will come to bed with real women and recreate what they’ve seen in porn down to the last detail, but I will argue that having your orgasm tied to such images over long periods of time tends to seep into real sexual experiences. Men often unknowingly treat their partners in ways that make them uncomfortable because they’ve had more experience seeing how the women in porn react to certain behaviors than they have with real women. Any woman can tell whether the man she’s sleeping with is a serious porn user. What more proof do you need?

Pornography creates conflicting expectations that destroy the ability for men and women to meet as equals and use their sexuality to express their affection for each other. It creates dichotomies that force women to sublimate their own sexual desires in order to fulfill one of two restrictive and limiting (and usually unsatisfying) roles in sexual relationships with men. It destroys women’s sexual confidence, their sense of emotional and sexual security in their relationships, and their self-esteem. Doesn’t it make sense that a woman who feels secure and comfortable in her sexuality would be more fun to sleep with? If for selfish reasons only, men ought to give that some thought.

Porn breeds shame and fear for men and for women, which drastically impairs communication, and it cripples men and women’s ability to understand each other’s sexuality. That turns out to be a seriously shitty deal for women, but it’s even a lame trade-off for men. The influence of pornography prevents men from experiencing their sexuality and that of women in any but the most limited of ways. I promise, real female sexuality is WAY more interesting than the ridiculously one-dimensional representations of it in porn. Ask any dude who has taken the time to find out. Allowing porn to hinder one’s ability to experience all that human sexuality has to offer is like trading a video game about driving for a Ferrari (I like getting to bring up Ferraris — it makes me think about 1985, plus I felt it was time to stop being so serious). It’s just dumb. Regardless of the ethical and moral reasons to avoid porn, men ought to avoid it for their own benefit if not that of the women they care about.

223 Responses to “Porn Part 3: Porn Ruins Sex”

Yeah, porn degrades society on levels we probably don’t realize. For example, the actual pornstars/playboy models/etc.. themselves don’t know that THEY are the ones making life HARDER for, well, themselves (women)! What do I mean? How do I explain this—pornstars are intrinsic to misogyny and the break down of men’s view towards women. Do pornstars know this? Because they pose nude, they cheapen sex, and men watch porn for a quick arousal. When men see women in the real world, real women now have a higher standard to uphold to. Real women are not porn stars. But, then again, it’s not like men look at regular women porn. Porn stars truly make it harder for the rest of us regular girls. Don’t believe it? Look around you, since the dawn of porn women feel less confident and have to get it back with breast/butt enhancements and lip injections.

Have you noticed that, while standards for female attractiveness have reached an astronomically high level, the standards for male attractiveness have dropped (and continue to drop) to a pathetically low level?

Men are very inconsistent & hypocritical. For instance; the average male wants to see his own image on TV, and becomes very irate when faced with a superior physical specimen. But, this is also the same guy who drools over the Victoria’s Secret models, and turns his nose up at regular women out on the street. It’s interesting because the women such men finds displeasing are still on a much higher level of attractiveness than they are. :D

Goddess forbid a woman holds similar standards for male attractiveness; that’s a big no-no. That’ll earn us the “bitch” label pretty quickly… and maybe even a battery acid facial.

Looking at the vast array of issues porn has, which generally are:
_Sex trafficking, coercion, threats, child trafficking (which then go to work in the normal industry once reaching legal age), financial necessity, etc.
_ Depictions, even if just acting, of violence, degradation, or at the very least, dominance or over-assertiveness from the male part coupled with low or lack of interest in the female’s comfort, desires, pleasures, etc.
_Body negativity: Constant portrayal of over-sexualized females, often impossible without surgery, thus contributing to the negative overly sexualized overly-emphasized norms of how ‘good’ female bodies are.
_Lack of real intimacy and portrayal of real caring loving equal sex. This will influence, especially younglings, especially when this is most of the type of porn that the person watched, the viewer, through repeated exposure, to have a distorted view of sex.

And so on, I hope I didn’t miss anything.

So, my question is: What if I was single, and I consume erotic manga (anime style comics) which depicts properly consented respectful LOVING gentle sex between a couple, which focuses on equal importance for both male and female’s comforts, desires, and pleasures. Pretty much, how proper couples have loving sex IRL.

Being manga, means it’s drawn. Only real humans involved are artists, and maybe voice actors if it’s an eroge (Pretty much a digital manga which contains voice acting), but most likely just artists.

Also, being loving and respectful and consented etc etc etc, it depicts a positive image of sex.

Also, being not really fetish-based, it depicts more realistic images of women (and men). I even played an eroge once which revolved around me having a heart issue and going into a school for the disabled. It was very romantic and I really fell for the girl which her disability was that due to a birth defect, she has no arms. I really fell for her because her personality just clicked with me. Also, she is quite cute. >/////>
It’s basically a 15 hour game filled with romance and ends with some loving sex between me and her. But for the most part, most erotic mangas I read won’t take 15 hours to reach the sex. xD I like read it, then save the part were the sex comes in for my alone time.

So, would y’all say it’s fine? I wanna hear an answer from female rad fems TBH. Me being a cis straight male and a feminist too, I wanna hear it from female’s perspective. I mean IDK if I’d call myself a rad, but everydayfeminism.com is my bible, and hopefully I’ll learn more about radfem and get into it too. :3

I’m not sure if I’m allowed to respond because as you probably know, I have more than a few reasons to support the first amendment and a male’s right to not go insane. My first question to you: Would you rather a man masturbate from imagination rather than outside stimuli? If you would, consider this: imagery and fantasy taken from real experiences and encounters can be more personal and disruptive for a relationship. Porn is unreal in basically every aspect that it delivers; most men don’t remember the last thing they masturbated to, because it’s simply a necessary means to pass time and have an orgasm. I can assure you that most men aren’t searching for porn actresses’ phone numbers. It’s that simple. Now, wacking to images of the girl next door washing her car is a different story. There’s so many deeper levels to this that I can truly consider this suspicious. Women aren’t here to spread their seed which is just another clear distinction from males. For one reason or another, we have to release. Denying a man’s need to release is like denying a woman’s need to have a baby. Now I know there are freaks of nature like syndicalist702, David Koresh, and Jeffery Dahmer that quell the impetus to be a human but you don’t want to associate with these people either, even less. These are the people that you wake up to standing over your bed staring at you while being covered with peanut butter holding a hatchet. You need to realize there’s some things you’ll never understand.

Saying that men need to “spread their seed” like women need to “have a baby” is one of the stupidest things I’ve heard a man say outside a republican discussing rape. Most women don’t feel the need to have a baby… and even if they did, if the man they were with couldn’t, they wouldn’t find the nearest man to make them one instead. Even if it weren’t completely false and ignorant, it still wouldn’t be a logical comparison.

I think you yourself are not understanding that a massive amount of women feel degraded, undermined, mistreated, hurt, angry, sad and more than anything heart ripped the heck out over the imagery that porn offers men. It is violating for many many reasons. And while you’re saying that it’s impossible for men to orgasm without porn (we’re all men master bating in a bush to unsuspecting women changing clothes before cameras? Did they release to relatives or under age girls if no other women were found nude in a couple days? Or did they die from porn lack??) I find that for a great deal of women, having sex or a relationship with a porn consuming partner is either unattractive, unfulfilling or emotionally toxic. So I suppose that based on your insistance on the NEED for porn, millions of women are going to have to then reply to men with I’m sorry but we’re nesters. Having sex with you or having a relationship makes us feel horrible in the end and that’s not healthy either. So by this logic of “can’t help it I’m male/female” we’ll all go masterbate alone and let the species die out. Cheers for that porn.
And dude seriously. You saying that men need to release just as women need to have babies. This may blow you’re mind but women do not NEED to have babies. Women here in 2014 chose to have children. And even then a wholeeee lot choose to never have children. Either you think we need something we obviously do not or you’re saying men too can choose to never ever wank in their lives…..
Last thought. The women that men apparently have no choice but to masterbate to…. if you had a baby daughter and she grew up and became a porn actress herself. Would her being basically f**ked on camera so any man in the world can watch her and masterbate and cum while she’s either baring her breasts or being penetrated at a nice angle so the camera can show the viewer her clitoris… would this be something you would be okay with? Would you feel like this was a decent life for her and like a good father yourself? Or are those women not people just cum tools?
Think about it. Have a heart. If not get a brain and if those two don’t tell you porn is harmful. Then grow some damn balls and say no to being a jerk. Off.

Drakkar – That’s faulty logic. Think about it. Women somehow get by without porn when they masturbate, and it doesn’t lead to the demise of their relationships. How about dudes think about the person they are with? Or some imaginary person? I don’t believe that men biologically need some kind of visual or visualization to masturbate, but that the hyper-availability of it makes it likely that they’ll come to consider it as something they’re entitled to. The argument that porn is a preferable substitute to cheating is bullshit. Men, just like women, can take responsibility for their behavior and not do things that will hurt their partner, such as cheating or using porn. The argument that women should allow their mates to use porn as it will prevent them from cheating is just another example of men’s belief in their own entitlement when it comes women’s sexuality. Sorry, but it’s specious and arrogant.

Just so you know, I don’t preach what I don’t practice. I’ve fully disclosed to my wife that I masturbate to porn. A typical conversation goes like this: Me: “Do you want to have sex?” Her: “Not tonight.” Me: “Ok, I’m going to go jack-off in the living room.” Her: “Ok, don’t stay up too late.” Me: “Ok.” Perfect harmony. I don’t complain that we don’t have enough sex; she doesn’t complain about feeling like she has to have it all the time…and still…when we do, it’s always amazing!

FYI, that EXACT SAME conversation happens in my house from time to not-infrequent time. (And like you, “when we do it’s always amazing.”)

But believe me, I am not cool with it. And he knows that. He simply chooses not to think about the fact that he knows it. And I’ve long since grown tired of reminding him. Reminding him I don’t like it isn’t fun. And neither is tolerating it– let’s face it, it’s like an unspoken bribe. Women are basically told, “accept this or Something Bad will happen (ie: he’ll cheat because obviously you can’t/won’t/don’t provide “enough sex”).
So: not fun either way.

So basically: yeah, I “tolerate” it, and there’s no apparent strife about it… because all of the strife happens in MY head. And I am 100% willing to bet your wife feels something similar, and I don’t even know her. Just sayin’.

I know this is an old conversation but I have to ask–this question’s burnin’ in me brain. Dude. You honestly don’t believe women in porn are real? Point. You missed it. It doesn’t matter whether she’s next door or lives across the country and is brought to you via Internet video, if you’re fantasizing about ANYONE but your wife, you’re cheating on her.

I’m saying this more for other dudes who will come along with the same question than I am for this guy, since he’s probably long since moved on from the conversation. But guys pretending the “porn chick” isn’t real is exactly one of the objections radfems have to pornography in the first place. Congratulations, you’ve just dehumanized a woman. Aren’t you proud of yourself?

I’m saying that people can wack off all they want, but that they ought to make sure they aren’t hurting anyone in the process. Your wife may be OK with you doing so, which I wonder about, since porn use in men causes complex issues in relationships that people aren’t always aware of, but that doesn’t change the fact that the porn industry is detrimental to the people involved in it. You’ll see. Wait for the next post.

Drak… As usual, you’re not making any sense. You have consistently demonstrated both your inability to think beyond stereotypes -and- a lack of any concrete knowledge of this subject beyond parroting the tired old “oh it’s an intrinsic impulse” horse manure that evolutionary psychologists swear by (probably to excuse, rather than analyze, ape-like behavior), all the while insulting those of us who use the intelligence and empathy – just as intrinsic as our primordial impulses – to reason and analyze and thus exert control over ourselves and our impulses. You seem to have serious beef with that. Having impulses is one thing. Insisting on engaging in ape-like behavior that we have the intelligence to rationalize and counteract is lazy and irresponsible. To surmise that I’m some kind of freak because I use my mental strength to control myself is just plain nuts. You have the same mental capacities I do, except you have elected not to use them. How does that make me a freak akin to David Koresh?

Don’t piss on me because I’m not afraid to examine my own behavior. Don’t hate me because I’m not lazy and complacent. Look in the mirror.

I could say you want things to be simpler than they are because when things are simpler they’re easier to deal with. Just wait until the next post. I think I may have done this backwards, since people seem to want to argue with me about this one about stuff I plan to write in the next one.

Wait a minute, dude. You are telling me this scenario doesn’t amount to disregard for your wife’s feelings? “Hey, wanna do it? No? OK, I’m going to go jack off to naked pictures of someone else then.” I don’t pretend to speak for your wife, but that sure isn’t how I’d want to be approached.

Other than a brief period in 2004, I have been celibate since my divorce in 1997. Sure, it can be frustrating at times, suicidally lonely at others, yet here I am!

Quit paying attention to the nasty little thing, and ultimately, it will leave you alone (most of the time). But regardless, you have NO right to rape the image or memory or even concept of another human being, much less their actual personae. And let’s face it…when you fantasize about someone who doesn’t want you, that’s exacly what it is!

Cold showers and diving into the world’s problems can help get your mind away from the pervision. And if the beast (lust) gets too bad – drink your way to unconsciousness!

Women generally don’t respond enthusiastically to being asked point blank if they want to do it. I’d probably say no on principle, since it’s the least sensitive approach I can imagine. Also, who wants to have sex with someone who is just as happy to go jack off to images of any random shit on the internet as to be with them? I don’t believe women naturally have lower sex drives than men, but I do believe that their desire to engage in sex can be suppressed when they feel that their partner doesn’t consider it important to make an effort to understand their sexuality and doesn’t value their feelings with regard to sex. And there’s nothing like using porn to let your partner know you don’t care about their feelings or understanding the true nature of female sexuality.

The fact that you don’t remember what you jacked off to is supposed to be a source of comfort to your wife? I might look at that differently; what kind of empathy do you have for people when you can use images of women being ill-treated and not even remember what they looked like? I know some women take comfort in considering themselves superior to the women in porn, and the fact that their partners don’t see them as the same kind of woman they see in porn, but to me that just sucks. It means you have a Madonna/whore complex to some degree, and I’d prefer to be a person rather than one of two types. I’m busy today but I’m planning to cover this in the next post. Maybe I’ll have to get on it.

I don’t ask point blank. I’ll try wooing first but I’ll know right away if she’s too sleepy, etc. It’s better for everyone that I wack off because what’ll happen is that I’ll get pissed off and then she’ll get pissed off I’m pissed off that we can’t have sex and then it’ll turn into a fight, etc. There’s no girl on Earth that could possibly want to have sex more than myself. No woman could ever keep up. I’m not “just as happy” to go wack-off than be with her. I’m happy that we’re not fighting the age-old battle of “why can’t we have sex?” I don’t understand her sexuality? I’m fully aware that women need emotional closeness and intimacy before physical contact. You seem to not want to understand the male sexuality. You would seemingly rather a person jackoff to fantasies about real life people that they encounter rather than naked soap operas (that’s basically what they are). I don’t jackoff to foreign porn because those girls are indeed slaves and look very unhappy about it. The girl has to look excited and zealous or else I’m not interested. The porn I watch contains zero ill-treated women in it, that’s a fact.

“The porn I watch contains zero ill-treated women in it, that’s a fact”
No that’s a lie. Linda Lovelace smiled in all of her porn. Ever heard of her? She was being pimped beaten and raped off camera. That’s not an anomaly in porn. But what do you care right? Your wife won’t give up that hole(or the other hole ever. Why do stuck up bitches hate anal amiright?) so you can pump it in for 2 seconds so she can not orgasm.

I do try to understand male sexuality. I think porn has misdirected it and warped it, and probably taken away some of what it can be. As for whether there are women being ill-treated in porn, I’ll get to that next. I hate to say this, but there is no way to know for sure whether women were being abused in the porn you’ve watched. It’s statistically highly probable that you’ve unknowingly watched porn in which a woman was being coerced, whether she looked enthusiastic or not. Just because this is America doesn’t mean women in domestic porn aren’t being abused.

I also heard- though it may a rumour- that masturbation existed before porn was a click away from every idiot who has a computer. No really, I kid ye not. Men and women have managed to get themselves off without needing pictures of another human being’s humiliation. Imagine that!

It’s almost as if the ‘oh you hate masturbation you prude’ ‘argument’ is a attempt to shame anti-porn women into shutting up…. who’d have thunk it, eh?

Deuce, I need you to define what you mean by “coerced”. Your argument is eerily similar to that of anti-abortionists/birth control. A woman chooses to be in porn much in the same way that she chooses to use birth control or have an abortion. If we take away a woman’s right to be jackhammered by Rocco Sefredi, we might as well take away her right to have an abortion.

Hairylegs- What do you imagine while masturbating w/o porn? So many more variables are weighing in versus a 2-D image of a crotch and penis. To me, wacking w/o porn is more damaging (from a fidelity standpoint) than with porn. Again, it’s hard to explain but with porn, a person relies solely on the senses- and it’s about as detached from reality and possibility than any other form. W/o porn, a person is forced to recall from memory whatever/whoever it is that turns them on. Usually this “turn on” is going to be someone encountered since a person recalls that last time they “sensed” something erotic to get turned on. I hope you see where I’m going with this and maybe then you can see this could potentially become problematic.

“To me, wacking w/o porn is more damaging (from a fidelity standpoint) than with porn. ”

Oh bullshit. You’re in charge of your own behaviour, *you* control whether or not you are faithful, not your hand, not your cock, not your precious porn. Take responsibility, listen to the women who speak bravely about how porn has damaged them, and do the right thing.

Um, most accounts I’ve heard from women in the sex industry–porn OR prostitution–include some kind of statement that they got into it because it was great money. That tells me they obviously needed to make a lot of money. Economic coercion is still coercion. If the only way I as a woman can make a living wage and have something left over for long-term plans is to pimp myself out to the highest bidder, there is something seriously wrong with that. All a guy has to do is go learn how to lay bricks, and he doesn’t even have to worry about sexual harassment while he’s doing it, unlike the few women who try to break into construction.

I mean, that’s all society has for us. “Wanna make more than shit wages? Give it up, slut.” Pardon the pun, but screw that.

Nine Deuce–I think asking point blank whether a person wants to have sex or not can work quite well in a relationship. Works well for my boyfriend and I at least. It’s straightforward, unassumptive, and in my experience only helps build trust.

Drakkar–Please stop it with the gender essentialism. I guarantee you there are women out there who can more than keep up with your sex drive, however high it is. I may not be one of them, you may have never met one of them, but I guarentee you they’re there. Also, there are plenty of women who do not need emotional closeness or intimacy for sex. Please desist in getting your information about sex from Men are From Mars, Women are from Venus books. As I read the other day (I wish I could remember where), “there is nothing so much like a man as a woman. There is nothing so much like a woman as a man.”

I used to have a great sex drive. I probably could have kept up with Drakkar with no problem. It’s declined in recent years, but something about gaining a hundred pounds and being treated like shit (which was not because of the weight gain–the guy who did that to me is into fat women) kind of shut me off. I’m pretty sure I will be able to wake it back up when I get healthier, though.

I’m even visually stimulated–go figure.

Then again, I get angry and express that anger like society says guys are “supposed” to do. Have caught no end of crap from both men AND women about that one.

What do you know, we don’t all fit into our proper little pigeonholes.

Genevieve- I totally agree that asking to have sex builds trust- which is precisely why my wife and I agreed to it. If she does want sex, then the wooing and intimacy commences. It’s the best of both worlds.

I’m shocked to learn that some women don’t need closeness and have my sex drive. I speak in generalizations because I’m too lazy to write disclaimers and shit. So, yes, I realize there’s some Cambodian girl in Denmark that likes to have sex as much as me. I’m shocked that you didn’t read into that.

I needed closeness AND had your sex drive. Problem was that when I expressed the sex drive I was usually dumped, as 9-2 described. On the rare occasion I wasn’t, there was usually some other problem with the relationship, and with the guy, too.

You can want to screw someone’s brains out or get your own screwed out and still want to cuddle before and after. Man *or* woman.

Nine Deuce–Oh, I know. I was just pointing out that this method certainly works for some people.

Drakkar–I’m guessing it’s a bit more frequent than “some Cambodian girl in Denmark.” And you’re surprised that I didn’t read that you don’t believe your generalizations to be 100% true through statements like: “There’s no girl on Earth that could possibly want to have sex more than myself. No woman could ever keep up.” Seems like it’s pretty clear-cut in your mind. If you want to leave room for ‘exceptions’ to the ‘rule,’ don’t speak in absolutes.

First time on this blog, it’s great!
Alas, why do you people bother arguing with this Dick-I mean errr Drakkar idiot? He will never get it. Don’t bother.
Anyway, your posts are great. I would push even further and not say to men “at least think of how porn is bad for YOU, even if you don’t care about women.” How about this: let’s not address men who don’t give two shits about women, eh? Why give them positive attention or credit? If men aren’t putting women’s needs, emotions, and such above their incessant need to masturbate to imagery that essentially has nothing to do with women’s sexuality in the first place then they are frankly not worthy of existence on this planet, let alone a relationship with a woman. I mean, who cares about men when we already see how porn perpetuates the oppression of women anyway? Shouldn’t that be enough for men to stand up and oppose porn? I guess not, since their entitlement and power and privilege is more important and relies on women’s subordination. Hence certain males’ adamant defense of porn.
Your arguments about how porn ruins relationships are spot on. My sister once had a relationship with a guy who was using porn behind her back. He had a serious addiction, and it ruined their relationship and ate at her self-esteem, to sum up.

rychousmama – Thanks! As to my arguing with Drakkar, I still hold out hope that I can get a few people to think about things from new perspectives. I’m walking a fine line here, being a rad feminist and trying to convince non-rad feminists that my worldview is worth giving up their privileges and dearly held assumptions for. I may be driving myself crazy, but I may also be planting seeds in places I never expected to, know what I mean? I don’t expect Drakkar or any other porn user who frequents my blog to drop everything and join the cause, but I do hope I can make them reconsider the impact of their actions, if only for their own benefit. Even if that doesn’t amount to the end of the porn industry as we know it, it might someday, aggregated with other factors (we can hope!), amount to a decline in the relative acceptance which porn now enjoys in our society. Maybe I’m deluding myself, but I’m not ready to give up on all of them just yet (though you are 100% on point on the arrogance of their sense of entitlement to use images of women being exploited). I think my goal on this blog is to get women who don’t identify as feminists to consider doing so and to get men to think about their unexamined privileges, as well as to interact with other feminists, so it’s often difficult to know where to draw the line.

I think the best way to change the world of men is to no longer reproduce with men like Dakkar. Men are expert liars and sociopaths and will put up a nice front to spread that y chromosome. Though maybe when women look at their internet comment section posts and violent porn histories they’ll dump them.
Maybe this is will be the female version of natural selection

A lot of men think like Drakkar, but fortunately, good women with good sex drives don’t marry them…or sleep with them. I don’t think that Drakkar would be on a feminist blog arguing for his “right” to look at porn if he didn’t feel a little guilty and defensive. You’ve planted the seed.

Anyway, I appreciate this blog more than you could ever know. My man and I have a relationship built on trust and respect. I do believe he may very well be more radically feminist than me – “don’t worry about make-up,” and “I don’t care if your legs are shaved,” not to mention a disgust with porn (but a very, very healthy sex drive) demonstrate that.
Unfortunately, even some of the most feminist individuals I know still support porn without recognizing the damaging role it can play in a relationship. It’s good to get the message out there for both men and women that a healthy sexual relationship can exist entirely without pornography.

I’m sorry about this but I happened to stumble upon this blog and got very confused by it. What do you consider “Porn” Images specifically depicting sex? Or any image of a Nude female or male? It seems that you only communicate in generalizations that leave me very unclear as to what to think. I find the female form one of the most breathtakingly beautiful things in the universe to experience. Does that mean I get sexually aroused every time I see a depiction of a naked woman? No I do not. If I care to masturbate I often think of intimate encounters from my past moment frozen in my memory of particular passion or significance. So are these thoughts pornographic? Do they abuse the women I remember, is it objectification to hold on to those moments in time even thought the relationships are long past into history? I have further questions about what does sexually arouse me. I may see a woman walking with her child holding hands and the way she looks at her child will almost move me to tears I may feel a deep visceral longing for that kind of love to be in my life. I might see an old couple holding hands setting on a park bench smiling at one another as she carefully straightens his collar upswept by the wind. That leaves me painfully aware of what I do not have. My yearning for a companion someone to touch to love to grow old with is as powerful as any sex desire I can ever imagine. It leaves me empty and feeling guilty for the desire. Is this better or am I just as guilty as the man who sees nothing but the shell of a human and lusts after it.

Akotha – I’m using the term “porn” to refer to the vast majority of images and videos produced in the mainstream pornography industry. (I’ve elaborated on that a bit in the fourth post.) What you’ve described here doesn’t fit into my definition of porn at all. In fact, what you’re discussing are exactly the kinds of alternatives I point to when people ask me what they ought to do instead of using porn.

I totally understand what you mean Nina Deuce. Thanks for the response. I guess I wrote what I did because I’ve seen so many male commenters not willing to listen to women (unless said women believe in the things they do).
Oh, and I don’t mean to sidetrack the topic here, but I am curious about the banner picture at the top of the page. What is the significance?
Later!

I have to admit that it has little significance. I took the picture on a street in Lanzhou, China. They were doing a demonstration of a hair care product and people were crowding around as if there were celebrities present. The fascination with it just seemed bizarre, as does the fascination with the majority of women’s grooming products.

Drakkar, I’m just going to say that the only person of whom I could honestly say that I’d ever expect to wake up and see him leaning over my bed, covered in peanut butter and holding a hatchet, is also someone who absolutely and without question uses a lot of porn. Just sayin’. And yes, this guy exists.

Wow, so are there really guys out there who don’t watch porn? Given that they aren’t right-wing religious types who are probably either closet homosexuals or sadistic perverts? Maybe it’s because I’m 19, but I find it hard to believe that any average man with a healthy sex drive would turn down porn due to ethical issues. Even *I* look at porn for fun sometimes, despite knowing how degrading and rather disgusting it can be sometimes.

More male reversals and lies. Sorry male liberals, it’s already been proven that right wing types are the ones (secretly) watching the most porn. And there really is nothing more right wing then the Madonna/whore bullshit porn perpetuates.
And porn is associated with men’s violent and misogynist ideas about women. Which would lead to them becoming “sadistic perverts” not the ones NOT watching those images. There’s porn with men choking women almost to death. That’s not sadistic? I need to get off this website before i lose it,

I’m really interested in your feelings about bishonen and yaoi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaoi). Like the males in your first post, I watched it with girlfriends, and later watched it alone. It was interesting, because my boyfriend watches his “lesbian” porn and I watch my yaoi. We both don’t force each other to watch porn, and we have a good relationship.

I’d have to say I don’t have an opinion yet since I’m not familiar enough with the subject to form one. I will, however, say that lesbian porn for the most part is not really lesbian porn. Your boyfriend likes to watch straight women pretend to be lesbians for a male onlooker’s pleasure. I’m usually pretty leery of anyone being sexually excited by cartoons or computer-generated images of people that don’t resemble real humans. I mean, isn’t that a little unnatural? I think the natural state of things is for people to be attracted to people, not to dolls and cartoons, which is where porn and most media take us.

Like I said, read part 6. I’m not telling anyone what to do, so you two can get into whatever porn happens to make you happy. I’m just trying to get people to see beyond the appearances in porn and realize what it means for women’s place in our society.

I think something unstated is a theory that men require more visual stimuli. It is a common one in sexual psych. Its why blowjobs are better if you can see them happening. I look at porn myself and have a healthy sex life. Your posts also seems to rely on the condition that people are stupid. The effected people you describe all sound like idiots.
Akotha, porn depends on both the intent of the viewer and the producer. If the person making the images intends them to be sexualized they are porn. As a photographer I collect images I find inspiring or would like to try and mimic and occasionally find a picture hidden in porn that is actually a genuinely good nude. Though I could look at an image which was intended to be art and be very turned on by it.

Your words are very acurate. Acurate enough for me to stop watching porn. After a wank I’d be less interested in having sex. My partner and I don’t speak about it by I’m pretty sure she can tell (something to do with me pestering her less, no doubt). I want to have a child with her which means having as much sex as possible to fight against nature’s odds. She’s a wonderful woman and she does repeatedly say she feels unsexy. Whatever part porn has to play in that I have no wish for it to be a part of our lives anymore.

Thank you so much for articulating what I was trying to get across to my partner. He is well aware of my feelings regarding porn, and I was under the impression that an agreement had been reached based on mutual understanding and respect. But after catching him “red-handed”, I realised that he had only agreed to try not to get caught. Epic fail!
Worse, he attempted to trivialise the issue, which only added to my hurt. He refused to acknowledge exactly what had been done under the defence of “I was just having a wank! Sheesh!”
I was starting to doubt myself, and to wonder if I was over-reacting. Was I really just an insecure hysterical woman? I knew I had these awful feelings of betrayal and hurt but wasn’t able to express them articulately. Thank you for reigniting the fire that was dwindling under the blanket of self-doubt. I have a right to be hurt, to feel betrayed, to be angry and most of all, absofuckinglutely disgusted at the knowledge that the man I love and respect could “get off” on the objectification, exploitation and degradation of my gender. *retch*
He has read this too, and now understands (I hope!) the issue. Who knows really though. I trusted him to be honest, and not to keep major things like this from me. Without that trust, I guess I don’t really know if he is just playing lip service in the hope that I stop looking at him as though I am about to vomit on his feet.
I hope I can believe him, and I hope that he has really understood what you have written here. Thank you for putting into words what I was feeling.

Username – I am glad to have written something of use to you at such a time. I’ve been in your situation more than once and it isn’t cool. Don’t let anyone tell you your feelings aren’t justified, and don’t be afraid to insist on being treated with respect in your relationships. There aren’t a ton of dudes out there who understand this sort of thing, but they exist, and we shouldn’t tolerate the behavior of the ones who don’t.

Username – I forgot to suggest this in my last comment, but you might want to have your partner take a loot at some of Robert Jensen’s work on porn. Some dudes just haven’t given the whole thing a lot of thought. I know plenty myself who, after reading up on the industry and its effects on society and on people’s personal relationships, decide that it isn’t something they want to be involved in. But don’t take that to be me making excuses for men using porn. We should all feel free to duck out of these situations and find someone we don’t have to teach to respect women.

Aaaaahhhhhhhh! Man, after reading some of what Drakkar Noir had to write I’m too fucking exhausted to read the other comments. All I have to say is this. It’s sad that Drakkar somehow sees it necessary to watch porn to masturbate (OH THOSE POOR CAVEMEN BEFORE THE TIME OF MOVING PICTURES!). The one good thing about his comments is that it shows us how deep porn has embedded itself within the American psyche and how damaging it is to one’s state of mind; so damaging to the point that Drakkar NEEDS it to masturbate.

Thank you for writing this. You have no idea how much it means for someone to understand. your section on the woman who disocvers her partner has been using porn behind her back is the most scarily accurate thing i have ever read.

Reading what you say, it sounds like your idea of “real female sexuality” is “sex that is only and purely focused on women’s pleasure”.

Which, nothing personal, is not my idea of fun sex. Or even good sex. Just lousy sex.

Spending an hour and a half on foreplay designed entirely to please her (30 minutes of which is probably going to be something horribly boring like my face in her crotch), and then maybe a quick bit of vanilla penetration…yeah…no. Boring, uninteresting, and selfish on the part of the woman.

If it’s wrong for men to want their partners to do things to please them, explain to me why you think it’s right for women to demand the same thing?

Obviously, since you’re a woman, you have a vested interest in sex that only focuses on women, but guess what? While, for women, that might be ‘great sex’, for men? That’s terrible, boring, awful sex.

Frankly, if she’s only interested in her own pleasure, she can get a vibrator.

No one said it should be ONLY about the woman’s pleasure. It should be MUTUAL. And how do you know that pleasing a woman is boring; have you ever tried it? Sounds to me like you must be pretty disappointing in bed. I hate vibrators; they are extremely uncomfortable and never warm. Real, living flesh is so much better. I do not believe for a minute that you have ever known the intense pleasure of equal give and take. Sex is sooooooo much better when both parties are into it and into each other. I dated guys who were addicted to and obsessed with porn, and the sex was rare, lack-luster, short, and often painful because they saw no real value in foreplay are rarely attempted it. They would then complain that they didn’t enjoy it as much as they thought they should, and blame it on me, but the reality is they were just using me like one might use a blow-up doll; as a means to an end. I wasn’t really involved because all they wanted was to get off and it didn’t have anything to do with me, I was simply what was most ready to hand for their use. I was ashamed of my own sexuality because it did not seem valued, and because if I asked for anything it was treated as a “chore” that got in the way of the man’s orgasm.
I enjoy giving oral pleasure largely because of the reaction of my partner; it makes it fun. I enjoy receiving it as well, but it is best when the man realizes that if he really takes the time to put good effort into it the way I would when doing the same for him, he has fun with it as well, for the same reason that he likes tickling me when I’m so ticklish: the reaction is enjoyable. That and there’s a certain satisfaction in a job well done that most men never experience because they’re too focused on their own orgasms and reaching them as expediently as possible.

I wish there was more people in the world like you, Nine Deuce. Your article has truly helped me, especially now going through something like this. I just hope everything will end well and that he can change and stop with the lies.

Again, I’m late to the party, but you’re assuming that the kind of degrading, pornified actions mentioned here are the only way men can find pleasure.

Sticking your dick in something is not the only way to get sexual satisfaction.
Engaging in humiliating acts separate from “vanilla penetration” is not your God-given right as a Male Who Deserves His Pleasure.
Orgasm and ejaculation is not the end-all, be-all, and certainly does not equate to sexual satisfaction– as you yourself implied!

Men can get pleasure, although possibly not orgasm/ejaculation (depends on the man) from a number of erogenous zones around the body.
You don’t have to ejaculate on a girl’s face, thrust your cock down her throat, or stuff your dick up her ass in order to be sexually satisfied.

Ok, I’m probably gonna get flamed but oh well. Firstly, I’m female… I had a massive problem with my ex looking/fapping over porn he looked at on the internet. It caused many arguements between us and I repeatedly told him that I didn’t like him doing it, he went on to say that he wouldn’t do it again.. Yeah right, shock horror I caught him in the act many times after he said he wouldn’t do it and I ‘snooped’ through our computer history to see if he was still looking at porn sites. And after I found out that he was still doing it, I felt like he had betrayed my trust.. But then, I thought to myself, ‘Ive betrayed his trust by snooping through his computer to check up on him’. So I couldn’t use that arguement with him anymore. I just didn’t like it, it disgusted me..

However, my current partner, told me when we first got together that he likes porn, it’s ‘his’ time, his release.. And I’m ok with that. I don’t have any problems at all with him having his little fap sessions and sometimes I get included in these sessions… But I won’t go into detail. I think I’m so okay with it this time because he was completely honest with me, he doesn’t try to hide it from me, he ‘includes’ me in it etc etc. Oh, and he doesn’t look at any of the choking, slapping stuff even though I don’t mind a bit of ‘roughness’ myself. What he sees in the stuff he watches, he doesn’t try to ‘re-enact’ in the bedroom when he is with me, we have a more than healthy sex life as it is. Yes, he watches ALOT of porn but really, I think I’m more ‘open minded’ and ‘kinkier’ than him sometimes.

I do agree with some of the things that were mentioned in the post and I can fully understand why women feel the way they do, being female myself and I really do feel for all the women who have gone through so much suffering because of it.

I’ve accepted the fact that men will watch porn, fap whatever else no matter what. It doesn’t mean they love us any less. Even when we tell them that we don’t want them doing it. Why change the person you love?

You don’t have to accept that men use porn. And if they continue to use it after you’ve told them it hurts you, then it does mean that they don’t love or respect you as much as they ought to. I highly suggest you read part 8 of my porn series.

“I’d like to think that the reason was that my father cared for my mother’s feelings and didn’t want to do something that would hurt her.”

Ok I just had to comment on this…. perhaps the reason was more that your father learnt to hide it well? I mean, how many parents, regardless of watching or reading porn really leave it around for their youngsters to see? Your dad probably had a secret stash under his mattress… or maybe in his tool box…

I’ve been talking with a lot of women lately regarding porn vs. cheating.

I feel like an arbitrary line has been drawn between the two. Is knowing your partner is getting off to hundreds of different a women a day really not a big deal as long as he is not physically touching them?

Would anyone contend that casual sex has more of psychological impact on a relationship than regular porn use?

For me, if a woman is going to insist on commitment, that commitment has to encompass mind as well as body. That means that getting off to hundreds of women a day is still a violation of that commitment, regardless of whether men touch these women or not.

Eliot Spitzer was in the news a couple of days ago for some interview he did, and he is quoted as saying that hiring a prostitute is a lesser betrayal than an affair because the former lacks the emotional component. That is, having sex with a woman who does not want to have sex with him is less consequential than sex that resulted from a mutual, real attraction with another person.

Pornography is kind of the same thing. Women who do not want to have sex with the consumer are being paid to have sex with other men with whom they do not want to have sex. Men use this lack of desire for them on the women’s part, not to examine the political, economic and social inequality between the sexes and the fucked-up-ness of the resultant construction of sexuality, but to equate porn with masturbation. Yet the appeal of porn is that it erases the knowledge that these women do not want to have sex with the consumer or with the men in the film, so when men watch porn or when they defend the content of porn, they equate porn with sex. Thus porn becomes a kind of cheating that is mostly limited to men, which is not to say that it would all equal up if more women watched porn. As porn is a male-oriented product in a male-dominated society, women who watch porn are as apt to identify with the men in porn as with the women. So porn is very much reinforcing the current power structure where men feel entitled to women who do not want them.

Not only do men feel entitled to an unwilling partner, they prefer it. Nothing scares an insecure male more than a horny woman. Hence, slut-shaming was invented. All part of the plan to make a loser feel like a sex god (A “good girl” has nobody to compare him to).

Porn also sends men the message that they shouldn’t settle with a partner, it breeds discontent and contempt. The message society sends tells them they are allowed to view women as sex objects…. I dunno. It makes me uncomfortable. And it makes me mad at how *smug they are.

ND – or maybe your dad is just one of those men who has enough imagination to come up with his own masturbation fantasies. And maybe, just maybe, he was in love with your mother and didn’t have an interest in ogling other women.

I’ve greatly enjoyed reading your posts on this topic, as they are very insightful. I’ve been reading some great books on the subject, such as Jensen’s Getting Off (that you mention several times).
I have a theory, just a theory, no real basis beyond anecdotal evidence and talking to people. But men seem really, really defensive about porn. More so than their “right” to anything else. They defend it tooth and nail, sometimes at the expense of their relationships. There’s no doubt that the line between reality and fantasy is extremely blurred. Think about when you wake up from a horrible nightmare. It can actually feel traumatic. Add a visual to that, with the intense physical feeling, and that line becomes incomprehensibly blurry. I think to some extent, subconsciously, porn becomes the other woman. Not in the cheating sense, but in the emotional attachment, needing her sense. I think men defend porn much like they’d defend their mistress. It is their mistress. I think that’s why the incredible efforts to lie, hide, and defend things they know are wrong (wrong in the sense of deeply hurting their partner).
As well, orgasm is an emotional thing. It is not possible to have orgasms with someone else and not feel some sort of emotional attachment. That’s a common cause of violence towards prostitutes. The men buy her to use, and they want no strings, no connection, nothing. But then they feel something for her, and it makes them violently angry. I think many of these men, whether they admit it or not, have become truly emotionally attached to porn.

And to add to what I said earlier, an emotional attachment wouldn’t be so far beyond the realm of possibility. Have you heard the way some men feel about those scary realistic sex dolls? They don’t describe them like sex toys, they describe them like people. Women in are in fact real live people. It’s not so farfetched to think someone could subconsciously feel emotionally attached.

That sounds plausible…otherwise, why the need for visual stimulation at all?

Also, notice the prevalance of short pieces of text describing the women involved (the ones that find new and innovative ways to say “this slut is the sluttiest slut that ever slutted, she’s sick of slutting with all these ethnic stereotypes, she needs a real man LIKE YOU to please her, the slut”). Presumably they are they to help build a fantasy, and thus an emotional connection.

It would be an attachment, however, based on “ownership” of “willing” women, and that… no matter what way you spin it is unhealthy. There was a study saying that the parts of the brain that lit up while viewing scantily clad women was the same area that lights up when men use tools, and that their emotional centers shut down. Now whether or not this alludes to something that is innately “male” or the product of the society we live in is still up for debate, if it is however innately male I say lock ’em up because feminists were right, all men are potential rapists, and animals that can’t control themselves, if it’s a product of society we seriously need to rethink our principles (I already think we need to, but when is the wake-up call going to come for others)

There’s plenty of strong points made here but what really struck me was her final point about silencing.

Here, I’ll paste it:

“Our silence. The silence and the silencing of women. The creation of authority in the image of the male. Of god in the image of the male. Rape. The burning of witches. Wife-beating. Laws against women speaking in public places. Against women preaching. The imprisonment of suffragists. Force-feeding. Harassment on the public streets. Scorn for the women who dares to act like man. A woman’s love for another woman, unspoken, hidden. Our invisibility in history. The manuscripts of Sappho burned, the writing of women never published, lives of genius spent obscurely, or in domestic labor and child-rearing; the life of the mother, of the housekeeper, unimagined and unrecognized. Woman’s word pronounced full of gile. A woman’s testimony held suspect in court.

These several centuries of the silencing of women are a palpable presence in our lives — the silence we have inherited has become part of us. It covers the space in which we live; it is a blank screen, and onto this screen a fantasy which does not belong to women is projected; the silence of women is the very surface on which pornography is played. We become other than ourselves.

And the story does not end with this forced silencing. Just as silence leave off, the lie begins. This lie is not only the lie the pornographer tells, but the lie a woman begins to believe about herself, or even if she does not believe it, the lie a woman tries to mimic. For since all the structures of power in her life, and all the voices of authority — the church, the state, society, most likely even her own mother and father — reflect pornography’s fantasy, if she feels in herself a being who contradicts this fantasy, she begins to believe she herself is wrong. Wordlessly, even as a small girl, she begins to try to mold herself to fit society’s image of what a woman ought to be. And that part of her which contradicts this pornographic image of womanhood is cast back into silence.”

With porn becoming so much more ubiquitous (not to mention more hate-filled and violent) since this publication and interview, it’s very difficult for me to accept how silent women are on the subject, how little push back there is. Have we taken our dose of Soma and we’re in some daze of putting up and shutting up? What Griffin said three decades ago is eerily prophetic.

This blog is one of the few places where I can find intelligent and thoughtful critique that is current, so thanks again ND for having a strong uncompromising/uncompromised voice and for providing us this space to speak.

it could be viewed that the degradation of women in porn recently is a reaction to female empowerment. This greatly excites ‘men’ who fell disenfranchised by the new world of powerful women. These men are typically ‘losers’ and are not successful in the art of attracting ladies. By seeing women being broken-down (“humbled”) by men is the sexualized visual representation of their fantasy world

Annon, not only do I agree, many porn users agree. Though they claim it’s the sexual power that women have been abusing over them (yeah we’re so sexually powerful that we are the main targets of sexual violence and our sexuality is seen as obscene in movies) I believe the trend towards more violent porn is due to the fact that men feel their priviledge is being taken away from them by women who are now starting to be seen as equals. Some men refer to porn use as getting back at those uppity bitches.

Yeah, isme – the normalizing of pornography use among young people is so perplexing. I cannot for the life of me relate to the mindset and I have been trying – really. I generally find that trying to see things from an opponent’s perspective saves a lot of time lost to inane misunderstanding, but the appeal of mainstream porn to young women baffles and scares me.

On a related note, there is an excellent essay by Susan Faludi in the October issue of Harpers on the disconnect between 2nd and 3rd wave feminists – and how the “3rd wave” may just kill the movement altogether.

I would post a link, but it’s subscriber-only. I’d post the text, but it’s too long, I think.

Thank you for these posts Nine Duece. This really struck home with me and my struggle with this issue. I’d like to share some of my story and hope it helps some of you men understand what this can do to the woman you may love. My first experience was when I was probably around 5, I had discovered porn in my mom’s friends garage. That warped me on how men view and expect women to look even then. I became obsessed with how I should look even at that tender age. Skip a few years down the road, I think I was 10. I was living with my grandmother and her husband. I found the stash of Playboys under the bathroom sink we all shared. This Step Grandpa that was supposedly into real adult women then went on to molest me and my 2 sisters. They were 7 and 3. I really had no idea he was abusing my sisters too until my grandmother cought him red-handed with my 3 yr old sister in bed when she came home from work early. And she had even been warned because he had been arrested for molesting his almost adult daughter, but got off because no one believed her. He admitted to molesting me and my youngest sister, no one realized the 7 yr old had been abused until she started cutting herself when she was around 10 and was talking to the psychiatrist. Let’s skip to when I was 19. First serious relationship and we were in love. I know he didn’t watch or look at porn for the first year of the relationship. We got pregnant and about 3 months into the pregnancy I was putting clothes away and found the stash he had hid. I felt completely betrayed, we had made a commitment to each other. To me that is physical and mental. I told him I couldn’t handle it. And I admit I overracted screaming at him. I thought I made my point. He said he’d throw it away. I found it again a few weeks later back in the house. He got it out of the garbage. I felt ugly, fat (especially because my baby bump was quite noticable) and those women sure didn’t look like me. I felt he really just wasn’t attracted to me anymore. He also “accidently” stuck you know what up my A**. and it was very rough. I cried the whole time it hurt so bad. HE NEVER EVEN NOTICED! Come to think of it, around then he started telling me I wanted to much sex. Now I know why, he had already gotten off. So my needs weren’t even getting met. I spent every night for a month crying myself to sleep. When he tried to comfort me I couldn’t stand him to touch me because I felt like I just wasn’t enough and he disgusted me. He ended up breaking down crying and admitting that he started looking at the porn because since I got pregnant he got curious and wasn’t sure I was the one. I lost the baby shortly after and no one, no one can tell me that finding out about the porn and the stress it caused me didn’t make me lose our child. You guys think about that. I became quite dysfunctional after that and battled cocain, meth addiction and alcoholism for about 7 yrs after that, never having a real relationship. I’m quite beautiful and smart and get hit on practically 24/7 if I’m out and about, but every time I would start to date a guy I liked and he started to get attached I would run because I didn’t want it to happen again. I have 3 kids now with 3 different guys because I have refused to be in a relationship, even with guys I knew without a doubt loved me. I’ve been proposed to at least 7 times. My last child’s father and I have been dating over 2 yrs and are now about 10 weeks pregnant again and were considering marraige and moving in together, but since he changed it to porn this last weekend and then expecting me to touch him I don’t want anything to do with him. It’s made me rethink about everytime we had sex if it was me on his mind or what he just saw on tv. I know he tries to refrain from it because he knows he’s gonna get horny and he prefers the real thing, but now I can already tell he’s starting to get bored of me and needs more variety than what I can alone give. I guess I’ll never understand because I don’t sexualize any guy but him, not even Brad Pitt, I can’t get off without thinking about only him, and I’ve tried, he is just all I want. All his dreams about having the perfect family just went up in smoke because I know without a doubt my trust in him is forever broken.

i’m 19, female, & in my 2nd year of uni. I stumbled upon this series of posts you put up. just wanted to say you’ve really made me think about some of the things i took for granted in society. thanks so much for opening my eyes to feminism without the negative connotations of man-hating, hairy women. :)

Thank you, thank you so much. This is exactly how I feel about porn but I have never been able to articulate it.
A few years ago my dad told my family that he had been addicted to pornography since he was 16. He readily admitted that his porn use led to him have affairs with other women. Like 26 other women. He also admitted to being a desensitized asshole (we already knew that part). This has been utterly devastating for my mother and for all of us. He has been in therapy for a while now, and we all continue to hate/love him.
When people tell me that porn is okay and “healthy” I want to punch them in the face. Then I want to call my mom and have her come over so she can kick them in the balls. But now I can yell at them because now I know what to say.

I’m a pro sex heterosexual female….I’m in my thirties have had sex with roughly one man a year since age 18. That’s 20 odd men. I thought most of them weren’t “doing it right” until I began studying pornography, then I figured what the problem was in my late 20’s. They were all rein-acting stuff they had seen in porn. That’s why the sex was so bad. It is pretty much a guide on how not to have sex in a way that a woman will enjoy.
Hell i even had men go down on me in a weird way, and realised it was because they were making room for someone to see. These men were wonderful, lovely men, who had been ruined by porn. They were terrible in bed.
Before i knew why I thought I may be a lesbian……what else could it be? I’d tried everything, including everything they had seen in porn. Nope, didn’t turn me on. Eventually I had sexual relationships (2) with men who didn’t watch porn. OMG! It was incredible. it was like being in another world. what a difference. everything was different. I mean everything. It was such an incredible experience compared to even the long relationships I’d had, with men I loved very much. Basically, if you want to be a good lover, use your imagination, not anything you have seen in porn. I hope this helps from a practical point of view. Do the complete opposite, or stop watching porn and being trained to think that is what you want. You’ll have women fainting at your feet & being 100% more enthusiastic in the bedroom. I for one will never date a man who currently watches porn, and my sex life is soooo much better for it.

I just don’t know where to begin. On May 5, 2008 four years ago, someone called “I” posted a response to your entry “Porn: Part 3,” though I JUST read it today. Her comment said:

“Im this woman –> ‘What about the woman who believes she’s in a relationship with a man who cares enough about her feelings to stop using porn, only to find out he’s been lying to her about it?’”

I too am this woman, having recently (less than 3 months ago) learned the magnitude of my partner’s (unfortunately aka “husband’s”) “problem” and how his “acting out” went FROM jacking off to a TV or computer screen TO jacking off to a real live 3-D person, albeit without contact (thus, the justification that it wasn’t cheating as there was no contact), and how this had been going on for 4 years, before and during the marriage (that I was admittedly reluctant to enter into for reasons that are now concrete, clear, and all too real)… all the while keeping it secret, which is easy because I was respecting boundaries and privacy and not snooping or prying — which all came back a thousandfold. If only I HAD been, I would not have lost the years spent trying to bond with this person, or trying to get on with life, including having or adopting a child (none of which has happened yet, and all of it has ground to a sudden halt while I determine how to navigate my way through this).

All of this, thanks to the presence of pornography in this person’s household as a child (provided primarily via his mother, believe it or not), and continuing throughout the rest of his life.

Yes, I knew the sex with him was at best weird and at worst bad, but I did the classic *blaming myself* for not having the *right kind* of sex drive or taste, or simply thinking I wasn’t *hip* enough to grasp this odd sexual taste. Classic.

1) Thank God (yes, I do believe in one) for the likes of you, NINE DEUCE. I discovered your brilliant, coherent, eloquent, action-inciting web site about a week ago through a Google search using the search terms “porn ruins sex” and unwittingly hit the mother lode. Immediate relief eclipsed my pain as I read words that I couldn’t find on my own to articulate what I had been all along (and still am) feeling.

2) Thank God (again) for the likes of Robert Jensen, whom I only just learned about through a link on one of the comments on your site and whose words and writings am going to seek out further.

I see that I have an enormous amount of reading to catch up on. I just feel so compelled to say THANK YOU. Thank you SO much.

What about pornography which is NOT degrading to women? What about pornography in which women DO experience legitimate pleasure? What about men who enjoy such pornography?

I am a 24 year-old male and I consider myself a feminist, still on my road to enlightenment but farther ahead than most of my ‘peers’. And while I agree, wholeheartedly, that the majority of mainstream porn is disrespectful, I do *not* think that all of it is, and I don’t see the problem with that of it that’s not, unless you’re going to argue that by supporting any of it you’re supporting all of it, which is preposterous because studios/websites don’t share profits.

My measure for what makes ‘good’ porn is how genuinely the woman seems to be enjoying it, because I get off on my partner getting off, and the erotic appeal of porn for me comes from mentally putting myself in the male’s place; same reason why, for no racist reasons, I don’t enjoy porn with non-white men, or men who are built significantly differently from me. Women enjoying themselves is what I enjoy, and I seek out porn that fits that description. And I don’t mean porn star moaning and groaning; unless they’re REALLY REALLY GOOD (with body language as well as verbal utterances) I can tell the difference.

Porn that is degrading to women is anathema to my erection in fact, and I avidly avoid such things; but there is such a wealth of material out there that IS exactly down my alley that I never find myself wanting, and I feel like perhaps you’re either not aware of this material, or don’t feel that it’s any less disrespectful, in which case I’d like to ask why. The best kind of porn to me is very genuine, if the people having sex love each other it’s even hotter to me. But I feel like, because I like porn at all, I’m being written off into some ‘unthinking beast’ category by you and others with similar beliefs, and that doesn’t seem fair to me. On rare occasion, porn has entered into my love life, usually from my partner and I watching something together (frequently at her request, though I suspect someone will argue that she coerced herself into thinking I wanted it, or feels like I or some other man somehow coerced her) and deciding “hey, we should try that”. And we did, in the spirit of adventure and discovery, and sometimes it worked and sometimes we realized how silly it was, but the entire time we were respecting each other and exploring together.

As for men “needing” porn being such a terrible thing: I’m kind of on the fence about that. Psychological studies have shown that men are programmed to be more stimulated (in every way, not just sexual) by visual input over other forms, so it does make sense that there would be a focus in that direction that is not entirely societally based. I know many men who simply can’t get to orgasm without having something to focus on outside of their own head, and that also makes sense from a psycho-sexual sense; if you’re going on sensory input, like from your eyes, it’s a looser connection than actively trying to think of something. The amount of extra cognition necessary to maintain a fantasy can be enough to take people out of their bodies too much for them to fully realize themselves sexually. Some men aren’t that way; I can get off quite fine with images in my head. But I would like to ask again if you think it’s really worse for men to focus on (NON DEGRADING) visual pornography than on, say, a fantasy of their past lovers. Because I can tell you from experience, as much as we might *try* to stick to one particular thought, controlling where our brain goes while masturbating is a bit like trying to steer a camel. Sometimes you can point it in the right direction but mostly it just goes where it wants to and the best you can do is hold on.

Further, I do know some *women* who can’t get off masturbating without porn. Are they also baseless and socially corrupted, or have they just been ground down under the patriarchal regime? Or is there something socially wrong with them?

Do I disagree with all of what you’ve said? No, not at all. But I do feel like there are some generalizations being made just as broad as the ones that feminism is trying to combat, and I don’t think that making those sort of generalizations really helps your case, except to those who already believe as you do.

By all means, I welcome responses to this, and I wouldn’t have posted if I didn’t desire such. I really do seek understanding, not conflict, so I look forward to your reasonable and reasoned response(s).

“By all means, I welcome responses to this, and I wouldn’t have posted if I didn’t desire such. I really do seek understanding, not conflict, so I look forward to your reasonable and reasoned response(s).”

Well, that’s nice of you. Do you look forwards/back to these issues being covered and sent back in time? Because it would appear that might be what has happened.

“Well, that’s nice of you. Do you look forwards/back to these issues being covered and sent back in time? Because it would appear that might be what has happened.”

My apologies, I had looked through the comments but I didn’t see my points about non-degrading pornography being raised. Could you possibly be so kind as to link me to the specific comments referenced?

IrrelevantElephant, I second the recommendation of reading the rest of the series + comments. Actually, in the comments of this specific post, some guy already tried to pull the “men respond better to visual stimuli” BS. And as for the degrading part…no offense, but there’s no way we can just take your word for it. Men will pretend that licking semen off the floor isn’t degrading if it would get you to do it.

unless you’re going to argue that by supporting any of it you’re supporting all of it

No, I argue that supporting porn is, by definition, supporting the commodification of women, which means supporting women’s subordination.

I can tell the difference

Sure you can.

there is such a wealth of material out there that IS exactly down my alley that I never find myself wanting

There’s no shortage of commodified women out there. Who knew?

The best kind of porn to me is very genuine, if the people having sex love each other it’s even hotter to me.

Why are other people’s sex lives any of your business? Seriously, where do you get the idea that wanting to see people having sex entitles you to see people having sex (and by looking for porn, you are asserting that belief)?

As for men “needing” porn being such a terrible thing

Men do not need porn. Period.

men are programmed to be more stimulated

People are not “programmed” nor “hard-wired” nor any of the other buzz words that the pop evol psychos like to use. People are a complex interplay of their biology, their ontogeny and their environment.

Furthermore, whenever you read studies of sex differences, more often than not, you discover that the differences within a sex are greater than the differences between the sexes.

Finally, let’s assume for the sake of argument that men are “more visually stimulated” than women. So what? None of the claims that people try to support with that (such as Chris’s “men require more visual stimuli”) actually follow from that observation.

I know many men who simply can’t get to orgasm without having something to focus on outside of their own head […] Further, I do know some *women* who can’t get off masturbating without porn.

Why should I care more that some people are unable to orgasm than that we live in a society that commodifies women, that teaches women that their value lies primarily if not exclusively in their sexual appeal, and that leverages the inequality in social, political and economic power between the sexes to exploit women emotionally, economically and sexually (and which also likely plays some part in the anorgasmia of which you speak)?

Irrereventelephant, in addition to the points you have raised being answered previosuly, they are the sort of points used over and over to dismiss anti-porn objections by people who don’t want the problems acknowledged.

As well as that, men claiming some small knowledge of feminism are forever telling women with great knowledge of feminism they are wrong in regards to important feminist issues. Yes, sometimes that wouldn’t be uncalled for, but it happens again and again because many men claim to be feminist without understanding feminism means that they aren’t automatically going to know better than women.

Now, I’ve got no way of telling it you are trying to dismiss the feminists as unimportant, or impress them with your superior knowledge, or something else (and anything you say about the matter is only likely to dig yourself in deeper, don’t bother). But from the PoV of everyone else, odds are it’s a mix of those two.

If you really, actually wanted to learn about feminism the way you say you did, you could do worse than reading through this blog and the comments. Like you say, there’s a long road to enlightenment (which nobody ever trult reaches), at the moment you really seem like you have a long way to go, but that doesn’t mean you can’t keep going down the path.

I write this in the knowledge that I’ve written all this before many times, and if anybody read it, they must have been people who didn’t need to to begin with.

“Look at that, ladies! I bet I mentioned something there that all of you together have never considered in your years of engaging in feminist theory! If you have any response to my brilliant point the likes of which you have surely never seen before, nor anticipated in any way, I hereby grant you permission to answer me, but only if you do so with the grovelling befitting lowly women who should be grateful that I even deign to consider your man-hating and grossly generalised points. If you cannot be *reasonable* about it, see, then I am no longer obliged to justify my porn use to you.”

And after getting the fatigued response of “Nothing new; do your homework,” irrelephant tops off his major fail with another classic:

“If I am to believe what you say that my point is not so brilliant, you must do my homework for me and show meeeeee.”

You know what I *by all means* welcome, irrelephant? I look forward to the (not imminent) day when I have read my last inane comment from some clueless, entitled doucheface with some flimsy fucking excuse for why he should not be considered an integrity-free space for consuming porn.

Hint: when you call yourself a feminist and women don’t agree with you, you’re not a feminist.

Reacting with anger to a load of predictable, disingenuous horseshit is not generalising, and it is certainly not hate speech. You are defending a practice that is uniquely harmful to all of us, and then you throw a hissy fit when we castigate you for it. You disgust me, suggesting that your continued misogyny is our fault for not being nice to you after you took a steaming intellectual crap in our space.* Now how about you keep your word for once and shut up the way you said you would.

*@lizor: I am gratefully borrowing that turn of phrase from you, since it is apt here, once again.

Eh, you have the privilege of choosing not to understand if you wish, but you shouldn’t expect feminists to respect you if you choose not to.

Now, I know full well you are not going to take this on board, but if someone has admitted they don’t know much about a serious social issue that doesn’t effect them, and various others who that doesn’t apply to tell them they are totally wrong and offensive, it might possibly be true, regardless of whether or not that person was trying to be?

If you want to call yourself a feminist and be believed, you can’t dismiss feminists out of hand.

the bit where nearly everyone who replied to me strawmanned/ad hominem’ed me(fede, isme, Rian, and lizor all put words in my mouth), the bit where, as far as I can tell, simply for being a male who doesn’t humbly and obsequiously agree with how dreadful all of this is and how I and my kind all, universally, without-exception-apart-from-the-aforementioned-grovellers, are terrible and without possibility of redemption short of agreeing with you wholesale,

Stating a disinterest in repeating themselves for your benefit is not an ad hominem. And the only strawman I see is the one I just quoted — from you.

And how am I putting words into your mouth? You said yourself that you watch porn. Porn is a product. You are a consumer. You said that you like to watch video of women being fucked, er, “made love to”. Ergo, the fucked women are the real commodity. Do you think that because there are a few middle men in between that the women are somehow not commodified?

The intent of your original post was to assert that all porn is not bad (“What about pornography which is NOT degrading to women? What about pornography in which women DO experience legitimate pleasure? What about men who enjoy such pornography?”), and my question is how are the women in “nice” porn any less commodified than women in “degrading” porn? How does accessing “nice” porn show that men feel any less entitled to the labor, emotions and bodies of women? How is “nice” porn anything but a niche market in the seemingly endless pornographic marketplace?

Thanks so much for these great posts. I hope that my experience can help people! I have been hurt in a relationship with a man (husband) who swore off porn as he sees how it is harmful, but is “addicted” and sneaks it again sometimes. After being hurt, my reaction was something like, “If you can’t beat ’em, join ’em.” There is lots of great porn out there that objectifies men (gorgeous male underwear models, and limitless “gay male” porn sites that objectify cut, perfect-bodied men, Not that me watching this helps a relationship, but it let me feel that things were “even.” Women get off with porn as much as men do, and believe it or not it hurt the feelings of my husband who then wanted to work out and lose weight – join the hurt club! I’ve given it up again and we’re happier without it, appreciate each other’s bodies much more without the porn comparison. But if he relapses into it again then I will too, and we’ll both feel hurt together and go through the same thing together. I even made him watch a male porno with me with a gorgeous guy and told him how I got off on that amazing bod. Just tit for tad. It’s out there and might help.

New reader here loving this blog and series! You tell the Truth from all angles ND, I look forward to reading more and more.

To those who claim men “need” visual stimuli to get off: Talk to some blind men who I’m pretty sure masturbate and get off like any other guy but without the visual prop of women being dehumanized. If blind men can manage, so can sighted men, and sighted men can probably learn a thing or two from blind or other disabled people when it comes to sex. I’m sure some blind men masturbate to audio porn, but I’m also sure some don’t.

Nicole: Thanks for sharing your story. I’m so sorry you’ve had such terrible experiences with men and porn. :(

I get that this is a really old thread and that Drakkar may never see this, but Nine Deuce, you might at least be interested to know this little tidbit: An estimated 85% of “amateur” or homemade porn available on the internet is posted without the “model’s” consent or even knowledge. That’s right. Many of these porn-using men are whacking off to unsuspecting young girls (age is almost never verified, so they could be 18 or they could be 14…who ever knows?) who let their idiot boyfriends video tape their sex, and then became victims when that boyfriend became an ex and posted the tape, or both parties became victims when a third party stole the video from one of their computers. (Most often, the information is stolen from a computer, either remotely by hackers or sometimes by sickos working in computer repair.) I don’t have the source on me to cite at the moment, but it came to my husband in a newsletter via email – either a Cisco newsletter or a general Network Securities Engineering educational newsletter. He is a Network Securities Engineer for the U.S. Army, and before deployments, a warning is generally “whispered” to soldiers and families that sexy Skyping and emailing sexy videos and photos is not a good idea for this very reason.

Also, Drakko, how are you determining a woman’s citizenship status? By her race, I’m assuming? If she’s white, she must not be a sex slave? That’s about the most ignorant, bullshit thing I’ve ever heard. You have NO idea whether she is being threatened, traded, sold, abused, or is under aged. Human trafficking and sex slavery is happening right here in America, too, you know. It also happens in Europe which…you know…has white people in it…duh. White tourists have been abducted out of predominantly non-white countries and trafficked across countries. And human trafficking is not limited to forced prostitution. It also encompasses pornography and forced labor.

Nine Deuce: I want to thank you for having the strength and courage to stand up for women’s perspective on the pervasive and dehumanizing porn industry. It is SO hard to find literature out there on porn that conveys a women’s perspective in an intellectual way. I find that most blogs catering to this topic encourage women to “get over it” because participating in porn is something that “all men do.”

I have struggled with the porn issue for a very long time, and I think it is an issue that affects most women on a deep emotional level. Instinctually, we know that it represents a threat to our relationships and to our sense of humanity. Personally, I know that finding the evidence of an ex-boyrfiend’s foray into the world wide web of porn on MY computer was an incredibly distressing event that led to a chasm in the relationship and infiltrated my mind with images of his betrayal. While I realize intellectually that those women do not pose a threat to me, the very thought of the one I love – the one who I share my deepest intimacy with, and to whom I feel a deep sense of spiritual and physical connection – trolling through degrading images of women and using these images as a means to achieve personal satisfaction is a glimpse into the male psyche that I can live without.

I think that a woman’s perspective on porn is a very difficult thing for men to understand, for they have been so desensitized to sexual imagery, using this as a means for sexual satisfaction for years before their first sexual encounter. Thusly, they tend to dissociate any feeling of emotion with it. it is simply a “tool” for ejaculation. For men, interaction with porn is viewed as completely separate from interaction with the real women in their lives. They ignore the conflict that this causes for women, for they have been taught that this is an acceptable form of behavior and that the images they are masturbating to are “not real.”

I am currently in a new relationship, with a man whom I love with all my heart. He is one of the most respectful, caring, nurturing, and stable people that I have ever known, let alone dated. He is also a “lad’s lad” and having been a rugby player who almost went pro has spent a good portion of his life inside of locker rooms. He tells me of the escapades that his team-mates engaged in – auctioning “whores” to players (who had wives at home), hiring strippers to come perform. He also confides in me his discomfort with this behavior and that despite his surroundings, he never adopted a disrespectful attitude toward women. However, I am not blind, and I DO know that he has viewed (and enjoyed) pornography in the past. However, since being in a relationship with me, he has not felt the need to look at it. Am I scared that he will find the need to look at it again in the future? Absolutely. What if I become pregnant, and cannot be there for him sexually? What then? And how awful would it make me feel to think of him jacking off to some spray-tanned sexual Wonder-woman when I am sacrificing my body in ways unimaginable to him, in order to create new life, so that his genes may survive?! How horrendous! How awful to think that men can continue to mentally “spread their genes” after we have been put in this situation. However, I feel that I cannot ask him not to do masturbate. I cannot censor his access to the unlimited array of provocative material that is available at the tap of a finger. As shitty as it makes me feel, I feel that demanding he not look at porn would infringe on his privacy and introduce an element of control and manipulation in the relationship. I have, however, informed him how I feel about pornography, and told him that I would be very hurt to think about him masturbating to images of other women. I have asked him to consider the women’s perspective. And for now, this is all I feel that I can do.

thanks again Nine Deuce for helping me to work out the feelings I have in my heart against pornography.

Carmen – Thank you for your comment. I take issue with the idea that telling someone that using porn within a relationship is somehow controlling. Continuing to engage in a behavior one knows hurts one’s partner is emotional abuse. Men have developed such a sense of entitlement, and have convinced women of their entitlement, to use porn that it is now generally considered inappropriate for women to make the request that their mates not psychologically abuse them. That such a view is so widespread is indicative of the extent to which the porn industry has warped our society and relationships.

Carmen, I hope you don’t mind me offering my two cents, too. In your comment, you expressed many of the same thoughts I have had on the issue. I feel it really crucial to stress that the view of porn use as a private matter is deeply problematic. It is just not true that a man’s porn use is no one’s business but his own. If a man uses porn while in a relationship with you, it is very much your business, because he is deadening his sensibilities in a way that is detrimental to his sexuality. As his partner, you come into direct contact with his sexuality, and so you absolutely should have a say in what he does to it.
Apart from having that responsibility to his own partner, a man also owes all people the basic respect of treating them as human beings. Jerking off to images of a human being’s humiliation and subjugation is disrespectful to them, period. Are the performers in a porn movie enjoying themselves? Impossible to know and quite frankly not the likeliest scenario. Besides – even if a person does enjoy being degraded, this does not in any way excuse the person who enjoys to degrade them. If someone comes up to me and says, “you lucky person, I am going to allow you to cut off my fingers!” – am I not still a freak if I happily accept that offer? I don’t want to cut off a person’s fingers or in any way disfigure them. Just because they are willing to let me doesn’t mean I should want to. Same with porn.
You have every right to expect and demand that your partner not act like a callous, abusive freak.

I know this won’t be popular, so I give a warning first. I’m approaching this from a more basic principles perspective. One of the comments went like this, and I’d like to respond.

On whether or not porn is degrading, I leave that to other women to decide – I have no feelings either way. Many of the images disturb me, some turn me on – but I’m not a visual person sexually, it all goes on in my head. My boyfriend is extremely, almost exclusively visual. I know I find written erotica very stimulating, but he finds what I find sexually stimulating almost boring. I feel the same about imagery. I don’t know if this is biology or society, probably both, but it’s the reality for at least us two. I will note that my boyfriend claims that he likes vanilla porn minus the degradation, and from what I discovered this seems mostly true.

But I have to notice something in Fede’s comments that specifically bother me. I don’t know if anyone else noticed it.

“It is just not true that a man’s porn use is no one’s business but his own. If a man uses porn while in a relationship with you, it is very much your business, because he is deadening his sensibilities in a way that is detrimental to his sexuality. As his partner, you come into direct contact with his sexuality, and so you absolutely should have a say in what he does to it.”

As a woman, I have a problem with this. My boyfriend doesn’t own my sexuality. It may not be healthy for me to read romance novels, but shoudl I wish to do this, his opinion is UTTERLY IRRELEVANT as to whether or not I get off on this. if he feels this demeans his ability to be my lover, so what? Should he be able to control what I read or find sexually stimulating? Not that I like romance novels, but the idea applies.

As a woman, then, should I have ownership or a voting “stake” in his sexuality? Should I be able to decide what (monogamous) activities he engages in?

My mother thought masturbation was evil. She forbade my brother to engage in it. She once caught my father masturbating shortly after they were married, and four years of counseling ensued. However, she wasn’t todl to moderate her expectations; my father was essentially told by his (religious) counselor that he was absolutely forbidden to masturbate because it insulted his marriage. My mother’s rules were the only ones considered “correct”.

I originally felt the same way about my boyfriend and porn. When I sat back and thought about it, though, much of my emotional response was the same as my mothers: I felt like I OWNED my boyfriend’s sexuality and he was only allowed to expend it on me.

I also want sex a lot less than him – about once a week is about good, more than that and it’s just me playing to his needs – and he wants to have sex more or less constantly. He could have sex three times a day and not be sated.

I don’t want him stepping out on me. But I also don’t want to have sex all the time. What should I do? Just make him tolerate my much lower sex drive?

Do I OWN his sexuality?

Does he OWN mine?

You suggest this is the case. I dislike this notion, because if it applies in one direction, it applies in the other.

“Apart from having that responsibility to his own partner, a man also owes all people the basic respect of treating them as human beings. Jerking off to images of a human being’s humiliation and subjugation is disrespectful to them, period. Are the performers in a porn movie enjoying themselves? Impossible to know and quite frankly not the likeliest scenario.”

I hated porn for the longeast time. Then I investigated it further. The porn industry is almost wholly voluntary, and the “porn stars” – I hesitate to call them that – are not generally coerced, according to virtually all first-hand reports. So the issue isn’t whether or not they’re degraded, but whether or not other women are degraded.

I used to hold this opinion, that they were selling my sexuality short. Then I thought about it – their sexuality is not my sexuality. I would never have sex for money or in public; but this has nothing to do with me. Who am I to tell some other woman?

I came to this position because a friend of mine is in an open relationship. I find it disturbing. She has two lovers, both of whom know about each other, and there are others that come and go. They find this arrangement acceptable. I felt it degrading the idea of intimacy in sexuality, generally, it cheapened it and made it something like a commodity. She told me to butt out – that her sexuality was literally none of her business, and my judgment was boring and uninteresting. I’d never thought of it in this manner.

It’s not that I think porn isn’t degrading and objectifying, but I no longer feel so sure that it’s my place to judge others’ sexuality. Whatever people do voluntarily, more or less, etc. I was taught to view homosexuality as a problem, too.

I do unfortunately seem to find that sex for my boyfriend serves a pretty objectifying experience, too. He definitely objectifies me: I am an attractive woman. He seems to experience sexuality very differently than I do. That said, we meet in the middle. I’m not sure if this is a result of him being male or being socialized, but I’ve talked about this with friends, and they seem to describe the same thing, no matter how conservative or liberal they are.

“Besides – even if a person does enjoy being degraded, this does not in any way excuse the person who enjoys to degrade them. If someone comes up to me and says, “you lucky person, I am going to allow you to cut off my fingers!” – am I not still a freak if I happily accept that offer? I don’t want to cut off a person’s fingers or in any way disfigure them. Just because they are willing to let me doesn’t mean I should want to. Same with porn.”

This allows for a lot of sexual judgment beyond just porn. I would have previously agreed. But this kind of arguent was used to sexually oppress a lot of people.

Just some thoughts. I’m not comfortable with porn, really, but the suggestion in this response was that partners own each others’ sexuality. I really recoil from this notion. I think it’s a very, very bad argument against porn.

The point being made was that when you are in a mutually exclusive relationship, you should only partake in sexual activities with that person, not that they can only experience sexual things with you. Masturbation is a natural and healthy thing to do alone or together, and it sounds to me like your experience with family telling you what to do with your sexuality has affected how you feel you should view the matter with your partner. The fact is, he is using another woman in a sexual way to achieve orgasm. You don’t need to stop him doing ANYTHING outside the relationship; you have missed the point. Porn ruins relationships as it- well, as you’ve said, it is an objectifying experience for you. Do you orgasm often? For women, a large part of orgasm is mental, and I apologise if I am being too forward, but it sounds like your sex life leaves much to be desired in the emotional aspect.

You admit to being bothered by porn and that it affects your sex life AND that your partner objectifies you, and you still say that it doesn’t affect you? Yes, who are you to tell some other woman what she can and cannot do? But when it comes to your boyfriend then using what that woman is selling, it is exactly the same as him using a prostitute. Masturbation is a physical thing; your boyfriend, nor any other man, physically NEEDS porn to get off. If he is solely visual, he has made himself this way and can correct that, if he tries hard enough.

Also, I wonder at the first-hand accounts you talk about, as often these first hand reports are made by pornographers as a biography of their workers’ careers, and they will talk about their porn stars being in the industry willingly as a certain popular fast-food company will claim that their burgers are 100% beef. Somewhere on this blog someone mentioned (and I can’t remember your name, apologies!) that a lot of porn stars get into the industry for the money, and that economic coercion is STILL a form of coercion. That those who “choose” feel selling themselves is the best way to make a living for themselves and to give something to society says something in itself for how women are sexualised with socalisation as they grow up.

Also, you mention at one point that you do not feel comfortable asking him not to masturbate. I am not sure if that’s exactly what you meant but in case it is, there is a vast difference between asking someone not to masturbate and asking them not to support the porn industry, narrow and poison their own sexual response, hurt and betray someone they love and so on, by using porn.

It disturbs me that porn use is so frequently conflated with male masturbation. They are not the same thing. A man who can’t get himself off with his own imagination has an impediment. There is nothing natural about a need for porn and it should not be indulged as such.

Uh-oh. Another case of the disappearing comment. If this is posted twice, I apologize.

@ Carmen, what ND and Fede said.

Also, you mention at one point that you do not feel comfortable asking him not to masturbate. I am not sure if that’s exactly what you meant but in case it is, there is a vast difference between asking someone not to masturbate and asking them not to support the porn industry, narrow and poison their own sexual response, hurt and betray someone they love and so on, by using porn.

It disturbs me that porn use is so frequently conflated with male masturbation. They are not the same thing. A man who can’t get himself off with his own imagination has an impediment. There is nothing natural about a need for porn and it should not be indulged as such.

I appreciate all of your comments and am thankful to have support. I too find it disturbing that masturbation is so conflated with porn. When my bf (now fiancee) and I had this conversation, he found it confusing that I took porn so personally, and tried to convince me that it is simply a tool that men use for ejaculation. He brought in an example of a couple with disparate sex drives, and said that the man with the gf who doesn’t want sex more than once / month will likely use porn, but this has nothing to do with how sexy he finds his girlfriend, etc. When I asked him, “why does this hypothetical man have to use porn?” he replied, that, well, it makes it EASIER. My reply was, of course, ‘does that make it right?’

The thing that gets me is that my boyfriend confided in me that he didn’t even watch his first porno until age 18. He is now 33, and has never been a frequent porn user. In fact, I consider him pretty square (I would say that I probably have a more voracious sex drive than he and would be interested in trying new things, short of watching porn together). So this man, who has had very limited exposure to porn in relation to most men out their in the world, has been mentally corrupted by this industry to think that PORN = MASTURBATION. Given that my man is on the extremely healthy end of the sexuality spectrum, then, what is going on in the minds of the everyman who is viewing this smut? I need only open my web-browser to images of “porn” to see the disgusting result.

I guess I am still trying to get at the heart of what bothers me most about porn. I have looked at it myself for research purposes, and I think what I find most disturbing is the degrading images and violence depicted against women. Also, I think it is cruel that women are being forced to accept that men NEED virtually escape into a world where there are an abundance of sex slaves willing to please them. It seems obvious to me that viewing this will impact a relationship. I believe that it also frays away the bond created between a man and a woman. Having an orgasm creates an oxytocin release, which leads to bonding; it seems natural that this bond should be shared between two people rather than a man and some images on a computer screen.

Here I am rambling again. I’m debating whether or not to bring up this issue again with my bf (fiancee). He probably will think I am crazy (i think he considers this a non-issue, given that he has not looked at porn in so long). I am honestly still bothered by the last conversation we had.

@Carmen: I think what you’re saying is very far from rambling. This is such an extremely important issue, and yet people like yourself who recognise the fundamental inhumanity of porn are often pressured into doubting themselves. The popular idea of porn as a harmless personal aid is unbelievably toxic. One thing in your latest comment stood out to me:

“he found it confusing that I took porn so personally, and tried to convince me that it is simply a tool that men use for ejaculation”

Right there I see the single greatest problem regarding any discussion of porn. Heterosexual men – even good, decent, otherwise intelligent men – generally fail to grasp what should be painfully obvious: that their porn use is personally insulting and harmful to their girlfriends/spouses because it is insulting and harmful to all women.

I dare anyone to argue in good faith that the overwhelming majority of mainstream porn is not disrespectful of the women in it. And if it is disrespectful of the women in it, it follows that it is disrespectful of women as a class.

The disingenuous argue that women in porn somehow make up a special class of dirty women from which the “real women” in a porn-using man’s life are exempt. But the so-called sluts in porn are women (and girls) who have lives and backgrounds that the porn user knows absolutely nothing about. So how can he presume to judge them?

And hey – if those women in porn really are so despicable as to deserve all that hate, why the hell is he conditioning himself to get turned on watching them in the first place? Does it not speak to some dysfunction in his sexuality if he finds it “easier” to achieve orgasm when looking at women he despises?

The women who perform in porn are real people. Referring to them as “simply a tool” really illustrates the problem. Mainstream porn is the total commodification of women. And if commodifying someone isn’t hateful, nothing is.

In porn, sex is overwhelmingly portrayed as the degradation of the women participating. For men to condition themselves to associate women’s degradation with orgasm is utterly irresponsible and obviously poses a threat to all women. And that is why we take it personally.

When I asked him, “why does this hypothetical man have to use porn?” he replied, that, well, it makes it EASIER.

Uh, if men get as depraved and excruciatingly horny as they claim, why would they need ANYTHING to make it “easier”? What. The . Fuck? Seems pretty fucking forced, to me. I really do believe the majority of men are gay, and it’s a legit theory, if you think about all the hate they throw at us. If they need all this extreme stuff (especially the really degrading crap) just to get off, somebody is living a mighty fruity lie (and life).

Very interesting post, and I do agree that men who have actually though about the treatment of women in porn and continue to use it are a little messed up, especially if their female companion has expressed discomfort with it. But I think it is a large generalization that all men that watch porn will look at any women and see holes in which to pleasure themselves. I have had boyfriends that watched porn and at the time, I didn’t know enough about feminism or the porn industry to feel bad about them watching it, but they never treated me like men do in porn. They never asked me to do things they saw in porn, and they never acted like their pleasure was above mine. They still seemed equally concerned with my pleasure as well as their own. So, porn can and most often does hurt relationships. I wouldn’t feel comfortable having a boyfriend watch porn now, because it’s just glorified rape. But I don’t think it’s fair to men to assume they are all brainless penis driven apes that see something a few times and assume that their reality must match up. Give guys some credit.

[…]But I don’t think it’s fair to men to assume they are all brainless penis driven apes that see something a few times and assume that their reality must match up.

First of all, men have never been “fair” to women. The fact that most of them wander around looking like total shit, yet expect women to maintain a Fuckhole Goddess™ appearance at all times is just one of many examples of their entirely UNFAIR mentality.

Secondly, if they wish to not be perceived as “penis driven apes”, they might want to consider not acting like PENIS DRIVEN APES. I know it’s crazy & irrational, but I judge people by the way they actually behave…not how I wish that they would behave in a perfect world known as Candyland. Exceptions aren’t the rule; the rule is the rule.

FACT: Most men have a meat market mentality regarding women. The scant few men who do not think this way are too fucking cowardly to call the scumbags out on their sleazy behavior. I have yet to see so much as a single, solitary man chaining himself to the fence of any Government building, demanding an end to, say, sexual trafficking.

The words & actions of men says a great deal about them…but so does their silence.

I hate men because men hate women. I will continue to hate men until this changes.

You’re right, men have the duty to call each other on these things, and not be silent. One way to cure the problem of how men view women as a sex toy is to inspire a culture of respect among men. My personal opinion is that if we men set standards for each other, there will be serious change. We must be willing to confront those who talk behind women’s backs like they’re sex objects. I’ll be the first to admit that it’s not easy. Especially if you’re a guy who is outnumbered in a group of guys. But change must start with the individual.

Nothing is going to solve everything, but the culture CAN change if the cultural teachers (eg, TV, movies, school, institutions, advertisements) changes to favor respect for women. The popular culture teaches that a man should be dominant and controlling over women- but TV writers can change that. Let’s start today.

The male sex drive should not be viewed as uncontrollable. It is that sort of thinking that leads men to believe that they can’t control themselves. If the release of sexual desire is so celebrated, why can’t the control of it be celebrated, too?

With all things considered, education starts at a young age; men can change if society demands it. It is the obligation of every male who supports feminism to help other men realize that patriarchy hurts all of us. Once that happens, the world will start to change.

We must be willing to confront those who talk behind women’s backs like they’re sex objects. I’ll be the first to admit that it’s not easy. Especially if you’re a guy who is outnumbered in a group of guys.

Say what?

I have seen men confront, and utterly destroy, other men over everything from sports, to religious beliefs, to territorial disputes, to theft. and even fried chicken! So, why is it that men mysteriously lose their balls to confront one another, when it comes to the topic of misogyny? It’s easy for a dude to kill another dude because, say, he’s not of the same race, but it’s “not easy” to confront your buddies when they talk shit about women? *blink*

I respect your post. What I am saying is that it isn’t easy for us guys to speak up because patriarchy is rooted in our society. It’s a difficult task, like many things are difficult. (I’m not making any excuses thought). I admit that I need to work on this issue as a personal growth matter (ie, me being more outspoken on my support of feminism among men). I will work on that.

Men are willing to stand up for stupid things, like sports. True. Men are the ones who have largely screwed up this world. Anybody can pick up a history book or turn on the news and see that.

In any event, remember that men are not as brave as they may like you to think. I acknowledge that pointing out misogynistic attitudes is very important as a way to change people, and one has to know how to go about it. It must not come across as preachy or people will tune it out.

Teaching men to respect women requires a full multi-level social change. Film, TV, books, commercials, schools and the general culture all need to change. Boys grow up being taught that women are just there to be a sexual object and that boys are “cool” if they exploit women’s bodies. How about we teach boys that respecting women is cool? How about we teach that men having self control is cool. That would be a reversal in the attitude that boys are indoctrinated with. That would begin to change things. Let me know what you think.

I am very irritated by your cool and calm demeanor. There is no sense of urgency, no real understanding of the severity of the situation. I mean, look at your ridiculous concerns over being perceived as “preachy”. Are you serious? Nevermind the oodles of female suffering going down RIGHT NOW, we need to take it slow & easy so Joe Blow wont feel as if he’s being preached to. Yeah, uh, pardon me while I prepare to projectile vomit.

See now, this is what pisses me off about “male feminists”. This is what makes me want to tear out my own hair and eat it, every time I read their asinine comments. Freedom has never been won via hand-holding. I refuse to sit down with my enemy and help him to connect the dots. No other group in recorded history has been expected to take the soft & gentle approach with their oppressors, so why is it expected of women? I am not a roll of Charmin toilet paper; I will never be easy on any man’s ass.

The truth is, I come here to vent my frustrations, not promote “multi-level social change” or discuss the effectiveness of eggshell-walking in the presence of the average asshole male. Like most extreme liberals, I’m sure you have a laundry list of special programs in-hand, that you feel will slowly educate the troglodytes on how to not rape, not engage in job discrimination, or how to adjust their drool cups when the evil, pushy, preachy feminists demand a level of respect that even a common household pet would receive. You’re a man with a plan, but I don’t give a damn. :D Understand me when I say that nothing short of total war will alter this situation. Power is never given up willingly. That’s not how the world works.

Personally, I’m just waiting for a natural disaster to occur, so that the filth will be purged from this planet. Too many women are too busy playing footsie with men to dedicate themselves to the cause, so this matter is now in the hands of Nature herself.

“…I mean, look at your ridiculous concerns over being perceived as “preachy”. Are you serious?…”

I sure am.

If feminism is perceived as preachy, you will turn people against it. Things must be done in the appropriate way, or they will fail. I don’t want that to happen. It sounds like you are questioning my sincerity because I simply want to see change happen (in a way that I feel will be effective).

I agree that there is a need for urgency. But if you proceed in the wrong way, it won’t work. If you rush building a space shuttle and make mistakes, you’ll have a disaster. Do it the right way, and taste success.

The essential issue is doing something that really WILL change society, and that change must be so successful that it is permanent. You cannot change millions of people’s attitude overnight. The question is not whether we can change everyone’s attitude overnight; the question is how do we permanently change society overall so that women are treated better.

Starting a war and hurting innocent people is not the answer. Like I’ve said in other posts, the best method is to change society overall. As a man, I know I can change people’s attitudes on an individual basis. Where else are we going to start?

And no, I’m not the type that wants violent people to get lenient sentences in court. People need to be accountable. The prison system rarely turns people into better citizens. However, it serves as a potential deterrent and as an incapacitator.

Finally, let’s remember that the anti-feminist movement’s favorite thing is division among feminism. Unification is essential.

You are no different than any other man. You are on a feminist blog, lecturing a female person (ie. me) on how your way is the best way. You are arrogant & presumptuous. No woman would even DARE to enter, say, an MRA blog, and then proceed to tell them how to run things properly. Men NEVER tolerate disrespect like that from women, but you all expect us to bow down and take orders from you, because you’re the man. I’m sick of this shit.

Radical Feminism is by and for WOMEN, not men. So stand down and SHUT UP. Learn to have some fucking humility & respect for disadvantaged groups, and stop grandstanding with your brilliant ideas for “unification”. Did you EVER consider the fact that some women don’t want unity with men? Did you ever stop to think that, just maybe, we simply want to be FREE of your annoying presence? Did you ever stop to think that we’d like to be able to have a goddamned conversation on the internet without the dreaded input of a bossy male LIKE YOU? Do you know what BOUNDARIES are? My gawd, look at yourself!

This isn’t about what you want, or what you “feel” would be the correct course of action. You aren’t the boss of me…or any other woman. This isn’t the place to whip out your cock and mark your territory, so FUCK OFF.

More thoughts: I love how this guy thinks he’s helping the cause by arguing with me. Real brave. I wonder why he isn’t on AVoiceForMen.com or ReturnOfKings.com, taking those assholes to task for their blatant & disgusting displays of misogyny? It couldn’t have anything to do with him being a phoney, could it?

The tone argument? Catching more flies with honey than vinegar and all might seem to make logical sense, but it is wrong for any number of important reasons, not least because it doesn’t actually work.

There isn’t a way to tell someone that they have too much privilege that will cause them to want to hear it.

At any rate, it seems this Justin dude is just another ‘faux sensitive’ type. In many ways, they are so much more dangerous than the straight up macho dudes, for all the reasons you listed. It takes real malevolence to convince a woman she should just cross her legs in the lobby of oblivion as she collects cobwebs and sweetly waits for justice and equality.

In many ways, they are so much more dangerous than the straight up macho dudes[…]

Exact-a-mondo. Guys like Justin are the worst because they pretend to give a damn… and many gullible women fall for it. Nice Guys™ are hiding some mighty foul shit beneath that “sensitive & caring” exterior.

There are those who say that for a man to lend assistance in the feminist cause is demeaning to women… But be wary of that narrative.

I know who wants feminism to be splintered up.

***

Some people don’t trust men to be part of the feminist movement. It helps to have more people involved in the movement, and excluding half the population would be bad. Personally, I would never trust a person like that.

The misogynists’ best achievement will be to make everyone think that men can’t be feminists.

This sort of thing can come from men or women. Be on the lookout for it.

…..There are forces who wish to see women kept down. One method of keeping feminism weak is to make men think that they are unwelcome in feminism.

Justin is a perfect example of why I hate men. They are all dirty little snakes, desperate to turn women against each other. What trash! He shows how weak-minded he believes women to be when he assumes that his words will be taken seriously. As previously stated, no woman could ever enter an MRA blog and run their mouth like this. It would never be tolerated.

Justin, men cannot lead feminism. The decision as to whether men can be feminists (or any decision) cannot be made by men, that defeats the whole purpose. Doesn’t matter what the decision is, how obvious it seems, how good the intentions are, people in a position of privilege getting to decide for the oppressed is built on privilege and oppression.

Compare white people swanning in and believing they should tinker with cultures they don’t understand, if it helps.

Hi Justin. “Culture of respect” — I love this. I just wanted to say that I appreciate your comment and think that the world IS changing when women speak out like Nine Deuce did in this porn series, and when men like you continue speaking like you just did here, especially amongst other men, even if you’re outnumbered. It takes great courage, to go against groupthink, for any sex or gender; we must tap into our warrior selves to speak Truth, which is the greatest weapon.

Sugarpuss, I always love your comments, and I get a chuckle out of your sweet tooth as there seems to always be at least one reference to something sweet & sugary in all your posts lol. :)

I remember a recentish ad campaign along those lines, not targeting men saying or doing misogynistic things, but targeting those who see the problem but who are afraid to say anything, that there are other men around who’d back them up on this.

Lulz. Yeah, that did a lot of good, obviously. And it’s hilarious that you dickbags actually have to be told to act decent. My gawd, if that isn’t proof that females are the superior sex, I don’t know what is. All the males care about is legalizing pot & bunghole sex. Such pathetic creatures. LMFAO!

Oh, and men aren’t afraid of jack-shit. As previously mentioned, men kill each other over the most irrelivent crap, but you fuckheads expect me (or any other intelligent woman) to believe that you’re “afraid” to merely educate your piggish brethren on the basics of human decency?

PS I despise cowards. I’ve said many things to men, to their faces, that could have gotten me beat up. Guess what? I didn’t give a fuck. To be this way, and then hear some fucking man whine like a newborn puppy about how scared he is of the big, scary bro club…it just triggers such a profound feeling of disgust & loathing within me. I’m not big. I’m not strong, but I’m brave.

Cowardice is exactly the problem, and shame is one of the roots of male violence. Men don’t realize how truly strong and free they can be if they just man up and show some courage by challenging their lobotomized brethren who act like hyper chimps either running around with machine guns or pounding their chests at the strip club. Until this happens, I have much sympathy for hetero women. If man-children would just put their fragile egoes aside (the bigger the ego, the lower the self-esteem), they could learn so much from women who’ve protected/saved/healed themselves from internalized misogyny.

I admire your huge oves Sugarpuss, and Nine Deuce, and all other fierce women who speak out so clearly and coherently against porn/prostitution and the colonist rape cultures it plays out in.

I love this. This has truly made my day. It is also why we need more men standing up and doing what is right; it is male subcultures that tend to set norms for themselves, and women can only do so much when it comes to what men talk about behind closed doors, in their own social groups. I completely agree on celebrating sexual control. The idea that men’s sexual appetites are uncontrollable is a self-fulfilling prophecy of sexual exploitation and abuse, I believe.

I wish I could highlight one or two of your views on the subject, but it’s impossible: you have just described it so well throughout – and not only that: you have described my own struggles as a wife of a porn addict! What you said about porn addicts sucking in bed (no pun intended… :D) is a REALITY confirmed by a couple of friends of mine and testimonials from wives on the Web, who suffer with the same problem. There’s an emptiness to the act, they’re never really there with you, and yes, they do try to reenact what they’ve watched on porn! Porn addicts develp a disorder called “Sexual/Intimacy Anorexia”, and researching about this disorder felt like reading the story of my own life :.( . Appallingly, it’s becoming epidemic because of the easy and free porn availability on the Internet.
My journey started with your Porn Series months ago and knowing now what my perspectives are, I would like to thank and salute you not only for your work, but also for your beautiful character, which transpares on your writing.
Keep on with the good work!
And yes, 1985 was a great year! : )
Neglected Wife

Amen sister! Amazingly put and thanks for reminding me that I don’t have to “go along” with something that secretly destroys me. I have made it clear up front to my now boyfriend who just lied to me about it. His loss. He told me the other day, I didn’t meet any of his standards… But “most women don’t” and then went on to describe a porn star as his standard. I’m his first girlfriend at 26 years old and he definitely has deeply bedded issues with porn! I’m 29 and don’t need anyone elses problem! He nit picked at me about my physical attributes that I guess weren’t “porn” enough. Oh, and I’m 5’5″ and 118, but I guess he needs me to be 110 and my butt needs to get bigger. Well, screw him, moving on. We need to spread the word and convince women that they DONT “need to just get over it!”

Hi,
I’m very much anti-porn and consider myself to be anti-pornography.

However, my friend always asked this question and I never knew how to answer. I was wondering how you would answer?
“Men always have that inherent need to see women naked. And if they’re not getting laid – and there’s no porn – then they’ll turn to rape.”
I mean….I can’t help but feel that that might happen if porn were bad and I guess I feel a little worried about it, too.
Do men, also, have an inherent need to see LOTS of women naked? See, that I don’t agree with. I don’t think we NEED variety. But how would I know – I’m a woman?

Plus the fact that rape figures are higher than ever, despite the ready availability of porn and the fact that this should stop people doing naughty rapey things, surely? Plus, men are quick enough to say that about other men, but wouldn’t admit themselves that they’d rape someone if they couldn’t watch porn.

Amanda, when someone says that to you, you could point out that if, in fact, men are so unable to control themselves – if they are that inherently dangerous that they need to dehumanize large numbers of people through pornography or else they will inflict torture (I maintain rape is a form of torture) on female humans, then they are not capable of maintaining the responsibilities that go along with basic human rights. They should not be entrusted with the responsibilities of public office, of being in charge of anything and perhaps their right to vote should also be reconsidered.

I know I’m a bit late (just found this), but thank you for your posts. I’m the ex-spouse of a porn fanatic (meaning a 10+ hour a day habit including some pretty disturbing stuff), a radical feminist/gender studies grad student, and a woman who is now trying to navigate in the dating world I know is rife with porn users. These posts are tremendously helping me process the post-trauma of my previous relationship. I do want to disagree, though, with the statement that, “any woman can tell whether the man she’s sleeping with is a serious porn user.” I was with a man (9+ years) with a serious problem and genuinely had no idea because I had no sexual experience. I married him very young, when we were both evangelical Christians, and waited until my wedding night to have sex. This allowed me to become his pornified sexual toy. I had no idea how f***ed up this kind of sex was because I knew nothing else of sex. Probably needless to say, I’ve changed radically. Only after a shocking discovery on the computer (followed by a series of staggered disclosures) did I realize his problem and, upon lots of reading and reflection, begin to see the pornified nature of my sexual experiences. So, I wanted to respond just to speak for us genuinely naive women (proudly now a formerly naive woman). Those who don’t know any better really might not know if they’re in a relationship with a serious porn user. Looking back, I now can see lots of things I should have seen at the time as signs, problems…and that makes me feel stupid. I take reassurance and self-validation in remembering that I was conditioned by my evangelical upbringing into naivete; I knew no better sexually. I just want to validate that reality for some women, so they don’t feel like there’s something wrong with them for not knowing they were/are in a relationship with a serious porn user. Sorry for the verbosity; guess I’m using this comment option as trauma processing.

I just want to say thanks! Your blog has helped me gain the confidence and re-assurance with myself that I don’t have to be with someone who uses this degrading filth in place of love and what it means to make love.

Yeah, they’re awesome, but the tone of that article gets on my nerves. For some reason, be it animal, vegetable or mineral, the female is shamed for being “mean” to the “poor, poor male”. BUT, when a male lifeform behaves in a nasty fashion, the general attitude is “that’s just the way it is. nature is brutal like that. get over it”. I recall one of the comics on The Oatmeal being the subject of this very fish. The title? How male anglerfish get shafted. All men do is whine about nature when it doesn’t conform to their misogynistic, male-dominated bullshit ideals of “normalcy”. I hope all of the fucking toxic waste that science nerds are dumping in the ocean causes a female anglerfish to grow into Godzilla proportions, and she devours every single man on the planet.

Anyhow, the show looks hideous. First few seconds into the promo, and I’m being subjected to sexualized images of other females. Not my cup of tea. I don’t understand why women can’t be presented the same as men; simply human. Why must there always be some gross sexual undertone in literally every piece of media that contains a female presence? I really liked the film Baise Moi, but I was annoyed by the typical T&A objectification crap. Just can’t get away from it. It’s like a nightmare that never ends.

Well yes, that is a problem! I liked Baise Moi as well. The thing men are allowed, whether on TV or on the street, is anonymity. That is mostly achieved with the wearing of suits. Kind of like that awful new video ‘Blurred Lines’ by Robin Thicke, in which the girls are prancing around nearly naked while Robin and his buddies stand almost motionless in… you guessed it, suits.

I do think if I had a superpower, it would be that kind of unaccountable, faceless anonymity men have in this society. No wonder the temptation to do evil is so great for them. Not that that’s an excuse, mind you.

That’s a shame, it would have been interesting to see your critique. I found that it was pretty well thought out at least concerning some of the details involving life in prison. Not that I would know! But I do have a friend in the film industry who has been researching institutional life for his own potential series.

Okay, basically, the first thing I saw in the promo was some sexualized imagery & dialogue. Men have this pervy fascination with lesbian culture, so it figures that a women’s prison show would get the green light for production. What I am sick of is how a female person cannot exist in a film while being human. It always has to be tied to sex, somehow. It’s the long-held belief that women are boring (or worthless) without being presented in a sexual fashion, or talking about sex, or eating pizza as if it were a dick (or a vagina), or dressing “sexy”, or sex, and then sex, and then more sex….etc, etc, etc.

I’m so sick of this shit I could puke!

I think, what I find most irritating, is how “sexy” is always associated with a half-naked female person. Or just a female in general. Why is it such a crime to exploit men in this fashion? A billion cocksmokers wanna know!

There have also been some pathetic lawsuits from actors like Bruce Willis, who was unaware his wiener had been filmed in one of many of his very dull blockbuster movies.

Ugh! As if anybody would even want to see that mess. Not too long ago (a month or two, perhaps), I saw that ugly, old washed-up dickbag on the cover of GQ! Can you believe that? I guess this means we’ll be seeing Susan Sarandon on the cover of Maxim sometime very soon…NOT.

That tumblr is horrific. There’s dudes out in the middle of the fucking street, right now, who look better than that shit. YUUUUCK!

And why are they wearing clothes? Don’t get me wrong, I’m GLAD (nothing worse than a nude manorexic), but that’s not my idea of turning the tables via objectification.

This means you should leave him alone a while to get over his
pain. If your ex boyfriend has always been the type of man who preferred
male friends to female friends, you should see his reluctance to be your friend as a positive.

If your ex boyfriend perceives in your voice that you’re thriving as well as even better after the relationship ended,
it will feel like a fast kick to their personality.

I think you yourself are not understanding that a massive amount of women feel degraded, undermined, mistreated, hurt, angry, sad and more than anything heart ripped the heck out over the imagery that porn offers men. It is violating for many many reasons. And while you’re saying that it’s impossible for men to orgasm without porn (were all men masterbating in a bush to unsuspecting women changing clothes before cameras? Did they release to relatives or under age girls if no other women were found nude in a couple days? Or did they die from porn lack??) I find that for a great deal of women, having sex or a relationship with a porn consuming partner is either unattractive, unfulfilling or emotionally toxic. So I suppose that based on your insistance on the NEED for porn, millions of women are going to have to then reply to men with I’m sorry but we’re nesters. Having sex with you or having a relationship makes us feel horrible in the end and that’s not healthy either. So by this logic of “can’t help it I’m male/female” we’ll all go masterbate alone and let the species die out. Cheers for that porn.
And dude seriously. You saying that men need to release just as women need to have babies. This may blow you’re mind but women do not NEED to have babies. Women here in 2014 chose to have children. And even then a wholeeee lot choose to never have children. Either you think we need something we obviously do not or you’re saying men too can choose to never ever wank in their lives…..
Last thought. The women that men apparently have no choice but to masterbate to…. if you had a baby daughter and she grew up and became a porn actress herself. Would her being basically f**ked on camera so any man in the world can watch her and masterbate and cum while she’s either baring her breasts or being penetrated at a nice angle so the camera can show the viewer her clitoris… would this be something you would be okay with? Would you feel like this was a decent life for her and like a good father yourself? Or are those women not people just cum tools?
Think about it. Have a heart. If not get a brain and if those two don’t tell you porn is harmful. Then grow some damn balls and say no to being a Jerk. Off.

It helps men feel superior and dominant. The fact that porn/strip clubs came around the same time as women’s rights isn’t a coincidence. As long as men hate women porn will exist(unless women stop them somehow, or the y dies off in a plague).

I told my boyfriend that i don’t want him to watch porn especially the solo ones. He told me that he can do that. From time to time i ask him if he keeps watching porn or not and every time he said that he stopped watching it and never watched it since. Months later i found out that he never stopped and keep watching even the solo ones. I forgave him and i am still together with him. After reading this post i felt too bad. I agree with what you wrote. Should i broke up with him? I don’t want to leave him and i love him very much. Are there really men that don’t watch porn. What should i do?

You know what men do whenever they find a flaw or undesired behavior in a woman? They kick her to the curb. Instantly, as if they have burnt themselves on a hot potato.
Not only is he watching porn for his egotistical made up needs but he also lied to you, so does he love you or use you? Why do you put him before your needs when he isn’t doing the same? Here’s a reminder: it never gets better with men, only worse. It will get worse.

A thing I’ve noticed is that men ruin a woman’s character. Women who spend time with men start to think and talk superficial talk like men. They start to rate other women for their looks only because they’ve internalized the male gaze.
So you’re a woman with morals and empathy for other people and the man in your life is making you deal with pornography and bringing evil into your life. Men never make anything better only worse. Has anything good come out of doing what men want? Never.

Oh and when he’s done with you in a couple of months, he’ll move on like he’s never known you. Until then he will try to exploit you to the maximum.

This is so true. If a woman is not fun and flirty 100% of the time, even due to something beyond her control like anxiety/depression, men will distance themselves because she is considered ‘damaged goods’. Oh, but we should be understanding of their personal issues as always because they are truly human beings who deserve our sympathy. Gross.

Exactly, you’ll notice that men always come out as saints whatever they do thanks to patriarchy and the lie that men are good human beings who just “make mistakes”. They can’t help cheating and lying and doing drugs it’s just “male nature”. somewhere deep down there’s a good human being who will supposedly come out 30 years down the road after you’ve sacrificed your whole life and dignity for a scumbag who will happily drag you down with him if you let him.
A woman has to love unconditionally and do this and that to prove her love, yet a man’s love ends when she puts on 10 pounds or when she can’t function as a sex- and houseslave due to sickness anymore. And whoops they’re out the door because coincidentally you both “had issues for a long time” What a timing!
It’s an all-encompassing web of lies created to serve the men of the world and to exploit women. Women are sluts but the same man who had sex with her, just can’t help it. Men beat you up, but only because he loves you so much and aggression is the only feeling they’re allowed to have. Or, it’s natural that he has 5 women on the side because men need to have variety and they settle late so you have to try harder to make him choose you. SO MUCH BULLSHIT. THIS MADNESS NEEDS TO STOP.
I don’t know if to laugh or cry when I see articles like “How to make him fall in love with you” or see amazing women bend over backwards to keep an ugly worthless sociopath in her life. Ugh.

Get rid of him. Never forgive somebody that lies to you (especially men) because once a liar, always a liar. I honestly don’t know how you could love somebody like that. LOL Drop him like he’s hot (although he probably isn’t).

“men expect women to look enthusiastic about what’s being done to them in porn, or else it just isn’t fun”
This may have been true in 2008, or the earlier point when you watched porn. Now the new trend is for women to look scared, sad, upset, and in pain. Basically, the look of someone being assaulted/raped.

You said that your father didn’t own any porn and that might have been because your dad didn’t want to hurt your mother’s feelings, or that perhaps he perceived the women in porn differently after you were born. Did you ever consider the possibility that he just didn’t use porn? Maybe he just wasn’t into it. Why is that out of the question?

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