The precedent being set would pretty much legalize murder in about 30 states.

Even if after seeing a kid who was only suspicious because of his race, ignoring the dispatcher, and "legally" following TM, I still don't know why GZ's only recourse was to shoot. It's bullshit. Take your fucking beating, that you earned, like a man.

The precedent being set would pretty much legalize murder in about 30 states.

Except it quite possibly didn't happen that way, not to mention the precedent was already set in Fla.

You fail to understand how fluid self defense can be, as explained in this case, but you keep on telling others when they can feel the need to defend themselves in the heat of a moment.

The current precedent says you don't have to run if attacked. It does not green light stalking someone while carrying a loaded gun and then being bitch slapped to the point you have to fire that gun to survive.

Zimmerman knew the law and did what he had to do for it to escalate into a fight so he had an excuse to execute a black kid he didn't like strolling around his neighborhood.

Again, the guy with the gun started the process. For some strange reason, he got into a fist fight while carrying a loaded gun. After he got out of his car. After he called police. After a dispatcher advised him to stay in his vehicle.

Does anyone know if police were dispatched after the 911 call? Seems like a lot of "stuff" happened between the call and arrival, no?

Orenthal wrote:btw the Westpark area of Cleveland is somewhat diverse, though also somewhat segregated. I would not be terribly scared to do that in his neighborhood. Quite different in East Cleveland.

Albanians don't stand a chance on the west side.

Know your place OJ.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

The precedent being set would pretty much legalize murder in about 30 states.

Except it quite possibly didn't happen that way, not to mention the precedent was already set in Fla.

You fail to understand how fluid self defense can be, as explained in this case, but you keep on telling others when they can feel the need to defend themselves in the heat of a moment.

The current precedent says you don't have to run if attacked. It does not green light stalking someone while carrying a loaded gun and then being bitch slapped to the point you have to fire that gun to survive.

Zimmerman knew the law and did what he had to do for it to escalate into a fight so he had an excuse to execute a black kid he didn't like strolling around his neighborhood.

Again, the guy with the gun started the process. For some strange reason, he got into a fist fight while carrying a loaded gun. After he got out of his car. After he called police. After a dispatcher advised him to stay in his vehicle.

Does anyone know if police were dispatched after the 911 call? Seems like a lot of "stuff" happened between the call and arrival, no?

He wasn't even arrested. "Execute" lmao.

"When a man with money meets a man with experience, the man with experience leaves with money and the man with money leaves with experience."

The precedent being set would pretty much legalize murder in about 30 states.

Except it quite possibly didn't happen that way, not to mention the precedent was already set in Fla.

You fail to understand how fluid self defense can be, as explained in this case, but you keep on telling others when they can feel the need to defend themselves in the heat of a moment.

The current precedent says you don't have to run if attacked. It does not green light stalking someone while carrying a loaded gun and then being bitch slapped to the point you have to fire that gun to survive.

Zimmerman knew the law and did what he had to do for it to escalate into a fight so he had an excuse to execute a black kid he didn't like strolling around his neighborhood.

Again, the guy with the gun started the process. For some strange reason, he got into a fist fight while carrying a loaded gun. After he got out of his car. After he called police. After a dispatcher advised him to stay in his vehicle.

Does anyone know if police were dispatched after the 911 call? Seems like a lot of "stuff" happened between the call and arrival, no?

Just like being asked a question, being stopped or being followed doesn't give a green light to attack someone.

So I take it you're of the extreme position that GZ went out that night with intention to kill a member of the black race?

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

The precedent being set would pretty much legalize murder in about 30 states.

Except it quite possibly didn't happen that way, not to mention the precedent was already set in Fla.

You fail to understand how fluid self defense can be, as explained in this case, but you keep on telling others when they can feel the need to defend themselves in the heat of a moment.

The current precedent says you don't have to run if attacked. It does not green light stalking someone while carrying a loaded gun and then being bitch slapped to the point you have to fire that gun to survive.

Zimmerman knew the law and did what he had to do for it to escalate into a fight so he had an excuse to execute a black kid he didn't like strolling around his neighborhood.

Again, the guy with the gun started the process. For some strange reason, he got into a fist fight while carrying a loaded gun. After he got out of his car. After he called police. After a dispatcher advised him to stay in his vehicle.

Does anyone know if police were dispatched after the 911 call? Seems like a lot of "stuff" happened between the call and arrival, no?

Just like being asked a question, being stopped or being followed doesn't give a green light to attack someone.

So I take it you're of the extreme position that GZ went out that night with intention to kill a member of the black race?

I certainly think that's possible. At least after he saw the kid strolling where he had no business strolling. He was in the GZ black kid strolling zone and GZ had put up with enough of these black kids just thinking they can walk wherever the fuck they want to walk.

Of course it was possible it went down that way mo, just like it was possible that TM turned and told GZ to fuck off and then clocked him, which is no more justified and much more illegal than GZ following TM (if the latter actually did happen).

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

FUDU wrote: So I take it you're of the extreme position that GZ went out that night with intention to kill a member of the black race?

"Fucking punks. These assholes - they always get away." - George Zimmerman on 26 February 2012

Right, that's what he said to LE. Your point is a legal one, or one that sheds light on GZ character?

ETA: transcript of call:

Dispatcher: Sanford Police Department. ... Zimmerman: Hey we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy, uh, [near] Retreat View Circle, um, the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about. Dispatcher: OK, and this guy is he white, black, or Hispanic? Zimmerman: He looks black.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

FUDU wrote:Of course it was possible it went down that way mo, just like it was possible that TM turned and told GZ to fuck off and then clocked him, which is no more justified and much more illegal than GZ following TM (if the latter actually did happen).

So, I guess if there is nobody there to see what happened for sure you can never hold anyone responsible. Free for all. Fantastic.

No matter who was the agressor during the final confrontation, there was one dude that night who took his gun and went looking for a confrontation.

FUDU wrote:Of course it was possible it went down that way mo, just like it was possible that TM turned and told GZ to fuck off and then clocked him, which is no more justified and much more illegal than GZ following TM (if the latter actually did happen).

So, I guess if there is nobody there to see what happened for sure you can never hold anyone responsible. Free for all. Fantastic.

No matter who was the agressor during the final confrontation, there was one dude that night who took his gun and went looking for a confrontation.

I agree that there is a level of accountability that could very well escape this case, a flaw in our system possibly?

The angle of who the aggressor was is extremely relevant in the context of self defense, but again it can change and we have some degree of reasonable standards of justifiable and proportional force. Which can apply to both parties in an altercation.

Not to mention, you again make the presumption that GZ grabbed his gun looking to kill someone that night. If so why wouldn't GZ just shoot TM from his truck and drive off? It was dark and raining, he actually might have driven off and never been identified ever. To take the chance of doing this face to face amid hand to hand combat, and get caught and go to jail forever....that's just stupid, no mo?

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

FUDU wrote:Of course it was possible it went down that way mo, just like it was possible that TM turned and told GZ to fuck off and then clocked him, which is no more justified and much more illegal than GZ following TM (if the latter actually did happen).

So, I guess if there is nobody there to see what happened for sure you can never hold anyone responsible. Free for all. Fantastic.

No matter who was the agressor during the final confrontation, there was one dude that night who took his gun and went looking for a confrontation.

I agree that there is a level of accountability that could very well escape this case, a flaw in our system possibly?

The angle of who the aggressor was is extremely relevant in the context of self defense, but again it can change and we have some degree of reasonable standards of justifiable and proportional force. Which can apply to both parties in an altercation.

Not to mention, you again make the presumption that GZ grabbed his gun looking to kill someone that night. If so why wouldn't GZ just shoot TM from his truck and drive off? It was dark and raining, he actually might have driven off and never been identified ever. To take the chance of doing this face to face amid hand to hand combat, and get caught and go to jail forever....that's just stupid, no mo?

I thought it was pretty well established that George was a wanabe cop who was familiar with the stand your ground law. Dude was on neighborhood watch with a registered gun. TM turns up with a hole in the back of his head it wouldn't be too tough for even Barney Fife to connect those dots.

He was a wannabe cop/neighborhood watch guy, I completely agree. That doesn't remotely translate to being illegal nor substantiate an intent to kill somebody that night. The "registered gun" angle is pretty moot as well, he was legal to own and legal to carry from everything I remember reading. Did GZ stick his nose too far in someone else's business, and want to, sure, I can see that angle.

Hole was in TM's chest, not the back of his head, a pretty significant distinction in regards to the crux of this trial, the argument of self defense.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

FUDU wrote:He was a wannabe cop/neighborhood watch guy, I completely agree. That doesn't remotely translate to being illegal nor substantiate an intent to kill somebody that night. The "registered gun" angle is pretty moot as well, he was legal to own and legal to carry from everything I remember reading. Did GZ stick his nose too far in someone else's business, and want to, sure, I can see that angle.

Hole was in TM's chest, not the back of his head, a pretty significant distinction in regards to the crux of this trial, the argument of self defense.

I was responding to your "why wouldn't GZ just shoot TM from his truck and drive off? It was dark and raining, he actually might have driven off and never been identified ever" query.

FUDU wrote: So I take it you're of the extreme position that GZ went out that night with intention to kill a member of the black race?

"Fucking punks. These assholes - they always get away." - George Zimmerman on 26 February 2012

Context. His neigborhood is violent and "people" had been breaking into homes. It is easy to say he went out there to execute TM, its possible, but I find it highly improbable. Why risk the beatdown. Prolly easier way to kill a darky if you are so inclined.

"When a man with money meets a man with experience, the man with experience leaves with money and the man with money leaves with experience."

He might go to jail, IMO he probably will (for MS) and I have little problem with that b/c of the dead body. I just hope if he does go to jail that it is b/c he lied and it was not self defense. Bottom line is justice can easily not be served with any verdict here.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

FUDU wrote:The angle of who the aggressor was is extremely relevant in the context of self defense, but again it can change and we have some degree of reasonable standards of justifiable and proportional force. Which can apply to both parties in an altercation.

I think I just went blind, either that or I straight up died. I can't decide which.

FUDU wrote: So I take it you're of the extreme position that GZ went out that night with intention to kill a member of the black race?

"Fucking punks. These assholes - they always get away." - George Zimmerman on 26 February 2012

Right, that's what he said to LE. Your point is a legal one, or one that sheds light on GZ character?

ETA: transcript of call:

Dispatcher: Sanford Police Department. ... Zimmerman: Hey we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy, uh, [near] Retreat View Circle, um, the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about. Dispatcher: OK, and this guy is he white, black, or Hispanic? Zimmerman: He looks black.

Why not include THE ENTIRE TRANSCRIPT? It's all over the interwebs. I mean if you are all about the legal merits of the self defense claim then why did you leave out the part where GZ admits TM ran away? Or the part where GZ complains "these assholes always get away."? Seems like we, the jury, should have at our disposal the entirity of the unbiased facts, and not be prejudiced by your failure to present all of the evidence.

I don't need to be patient, they're going to be shit forever. - CDT, discussing my favorite NFL team

If they stick w/ 2nd degree murder the Tubby Avenger likely walks. Minially a hung jury or a mis trial. There's so much reasonable doubt they'll never get a conviction. Not enough evidence settinga side all the name calling. The State never had enough evidence.

If they stick w/ 2nd degree murder the Tubby Avenger likely walks. Minially a hung jury or a mis trial. There's so much reasonable doubt they'll never get a conviction. Not enough evidence settinga side all the name calling. The State never had enough evidence.

Fuck my life, you are probably right. We have a games in the Sanford Ghetto this week Sun-Wed-Thurs all at 11:00 AM. Then our next games aren't until the 22nd-23rd but one is a 7:00 game. I need some kind of plan here.

My newest car is a 2004 Impala with some body damage I've never fixed. I also have 2002 Chevy MiniVan and 2001 POS Jetta so I shouldn't stand out too badly and I think every car needs engine work, so even if they take it who cares.

I've been leaning towards going through town disguised as a Muslim. Trouble is pulling it off. Do I lay on some fake Chechnyan accent or just act white? Or would it better to splatter my cars quickly with Obama bumper stickers?

If they stick w/ 2nd degree murder the Tubby Avenger likely walks. Minially a hung jury or a mis trial. There's so much reasonable doubt they'll never get a conviction. Not enough evidence settinga side all the name calling. The State never had enough evidence.

I don't necessarily disagree with this and it is a far fairer stance than racist FUDU trotting around with his Nancy Grace law degree and proclaiming fairness in shooting someone that hits you after you start a fight being all good.

There is a lot of contradiction in what the witnesses had to say and that alone can cause reasonable doubt enough to get you a hung jury or mistrial.

If they stick w/ 2nd degree murder the Tubby Avenger likely walks. Minially a hung jury or a mis trial. There's so much reasonable doubt they'll never get a conviction. Not enough evidence settinga side all the name calling. The State never had enough evidence.

I don't necessarily disagree with this and it is a far fairer stance than racist FUDU trotting around with his Nancy Grace law degree and proclaiming fairness in shooting someone that hits you after you start a fight being all good.

There is a lot of contradiction in what the witnesses had to say and that alone can cause reasonable doubt enough to get you a hung jury or mistrial.

I agree with this, and this might be kinda out there, but it has crossed my mind that they introduced lesser counts in order to convict the guy of SOMETHING. Cause if they don't, JB is correct in his initial post, it ain't gonna be a pretty site in several Florida neighborhoods.

Unfortunately, there just isn't enough judically to convict the guy ILO.

If they stick w/ 2nd degree murder the Tubby Avenger likely walks. Minially a hung jury or a mis trial. There's so much reasonable doubt they'll never get a conviction. Not enough evidence settinga side all the name calling. The State never had enough evidence.

I don't necessarily disagree with this and it is a far fairer stance than racist FUDU trotting around with his Nancy Grace law degree and proclaiming fairness in shooting someone that hits you after you start a fight being all good.

There is a lot of contradiction in what the witnesses had to say and that alone can cause reasonable doubt enough to get you a hung jury or mistrial.

If they stick w/ 2nd degree murder the Tubby Avenger likely walks. Minially a hung jury or a mis trial. There's so much reasonable doubt they'll never get a conviction. Not enough evidence settinga side all the name calling. The State never had enough evidence.

Fuck my life, you are probably right. We have a games in the Sanford Ghetto this week Sun-Wed-Thurs all at 11:00 AM. Then our next games aren't until the 22nd-23rd but one is a 7:00 game. I need some kind of plan here.

My newest car is a 2004 Impala with some body damage I've never fixed. I also have 2002 Chevy MiniVan and 2001 POS Jetta so I shouldn't stand out too badly and I think every car needs engine work, so even if they take it who cares.

I've been leaning towards going through town disguised as a Muslim. Trouble is pulling it off. Do I lay on some fake Chechnyan accent or just act white? Or would it better to splatter my cars quickly with Obama bumper stickers?

Get one a them Somalian war lord 80's vintage pick ups with a machine gun turret on back by the weekend.

If they stick w/ 2nd degree murder the Tubby Avenger likely walks. Minially a hung jury or a mis trial. There's so much reasonable doubt they'll never get a conviction. Not enough evidence settinga side all the name calling. The State never had enough evidence.

I don't necessarily disagree with this and it is a far fairer stance than racist FUDU trotting around with his Nancy Grace law degree and proclaiming fairness in shooting someone that hits you after you start a fight being all good.

There is a lot of contradiction in what the witnesses had to say and that alone can cause reasonable doubt enough to get you a hung jury or mistrial.

Yep.

The issue isnt whetrher Trevon died. The issue is intent.

Thats why to ensure time the state should go with MS.

Before they lose.

I'm with you, and I've stated that all along, GZ has accountability in this. The system is F'd up if he just walks with no penalty, even though his life is over regardless.

David Webb has made some comments in the past few days that really summarize this whole story well.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

If they stick w/ 2nd degree murder the Tubby Avenger likely walks. Minially a hung jury or a mis trial. There's so much reasonable doubt they'll never get a conviction. Not enough evidence settinga side all the name calling. The State never had enough evidence.

I don't necessarily disagree with this and it is a far fairer stance than racist FUDU trotting around with his Nancy Grace law degree and proclaiming fairness in shooting someone that hits you after you start a fight being all good.

There is a lot of contradiction in what the witnesses had to say and that alone can cause reasonable doubt enough to get you a hung jury or mistrial.

Yep.

The issue isnt whetrher Trevon died. The issue is intent.

Thats why to ensure time the state should go with MS.

Before they lose.

I'm with you, and I've stated that all along, GZ has accountability in this. The system is F'd up if he just walks with no penalty, even though his life is over regardless.

David Webb has made some comments in the past few days that really summarize this whole story well.

The best thing that happened to GZ was that he was charged with murder. The political ferenzy forced that hand.

If you watch CNN, garregos is pretty much laughing at everything the satate has done.

Stan Van Gundy was on Lebatard's radio show, as he sits in once a week. And is fantastic, by the way. Anyways, he says since he has no job, he pretty much watches court TV all day. Down there it's on every local affiliate wire to wire. He pretty much said batten down the hatches if he's aquitted, as race relations in that area don't have the best track record. Guys worried about the local neighborhoods.

leadpipe wrote:Stan Van Gundy was on Lebatard's radio show, as he sits in once a week. And is fantastic, by the way. Anyways, he says since he has no job, he pretty much watches court TV all day. Down there it's on every local affiliate wire to wire. He pretty much said batten down the hatches if he's aquitted, as race relations in that area don't have the best track record. Guys worried about the local neighborhoods.

I love that instead of watching Summer League like most NBA Coach Style People would be SVG is chilling in some bar, no doubt wearing an unbutton Hawaiian shirt and watching the Zimmerman trial.

SVG was out there at school board meetings and in the public eye trying to get a bond passed for the local school system even though his kid was at Lake Mary Prep. Whether I agree or disagree with the bond, I had a lot of respect for him trying to do something at the local level like that. A lot of times these guys that want to get involved jump right to the higher level political arena which as we all now is fraught with socio-paths, it's good to see a guy trying to work at that level.

leadpipe wrote:Stan Van Gundy was on Lebatard's radio show, as he sits in once a week. And is fantastic, by the way. Anyways, he says since he has no job, he pretty much watches court TV all day. Down there it's on every local affiliate wire to wire. He pretty much said batten down the hatches if he's aquitted, as race relations in that area don't have the best track record. Guys worried about the local neighborhoods.

leadpipe wrote:Stan Van Gundy was on Lebatard's radio show, as he sits in once a week. And is fantastic, by the way. Anyways, he says since he has no job, he pretty much watches court TV all day. Down there it's on every local affiliate wire to wire. He pretty much said batten down the hatches if he's aquitted, as race relations in that area don't have the best track record. Guys worried about the local neighborhoods.

I love that instead of watching Summer League like most NBA Coach Style People would be SVG is chilling in some bar, no doubt wearing an unbutton Hawaiian shirt and watching the Zimmerman trial.

If they stick w/ 2nd degree murder the Tubby Avenger likely walks. Minially a hung jury or a mis trial. There's so much reasonable doubt they'll never get a conviction. Not enough evidence settinga side all the name calling. The State never had enough evidence.

I don't necessarily disagree with this and it is a far fairer stance than racist FUDU trotting around with his Nancy Grace law degree and proclaiming fairness in shooting someone that hits you after you start a fight being all good.

There is a lot of contradiction in what the witnesses had to say and that alone can cause reasonable doubt enough to get you a hung jury or mistrial.

Yep.

The issue isnt whetrher Trevon died. The issue is intent.

Thats why to ensure time the state should go with MS.

Before they lose.

I'm with you, and I've stated that all along, GZ has accountability in this. The system is F'd up if he just walks with no penalty, even though his life is over regardless.

David Webb has made some comments in the past few days that really summarize this whole story well.

The best thing that happened to GZ was that he was charged with murder. The political ferenzy forced that hand.

If you watch CNN, garregos is pretty much laughing at everything the satate has done.

Sunny is as unwatchable as nancy Grace.

Cooper's panel is pretty decent IMO, Mark and Sunny are the two extremes and for my money Sunny is almost unbearable in her blowing of the prosecution. She tries to play off of her female and mother role as if it makes a difference in how this case is viewed. Toobin and Denny are the best on that panel IMO, smart, quick and able to see pts scored from the side they are not buying into.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

So, what I get from that article is that if you even have a thought that there is reasonable doubt, you hate black people.

In a nutshell, this is what is aggravating about the case from both sides. The close mindedness is numbing. 90% of opinions being spewed on TV coulda been said before they knew 10% of what is out there known now.

For the record, I think he's committed a criminal act - I don't think by the letter of the law that he'll get convicted of anything close to murder.

As many of you've read from me before, I'm a big fan of behavin' and minding my own business. Whatever negative come Georgie's way, he deserves. He went lookin for trouble, and got in over his head. Maybe it was as simple as f'in with the wrong guy, but that guy's dead, at his hand, and he should pay.

And just cause I have this view - that I'm not gung ho that God be damned, this guy should hang at sunrise - doesn't mean I hate black people.

These aricles written by cats who want to label people as racists, while painting with a broad brush themselves.....

One jack wagon is dead and one jack wagon is headed to prison. After reading about each guy I'd say there's nothing surprising about it and it could just as easily be reversed as to where each ended up.

I'll say this in terms of where I come out on the whole thing: if GZ doesn't go Bronson then none if this happens. IMO he's the proximate cause of the entire clusterfuck. Whether the letter of the law delays his imminent prison death I have no idea. I expect them to at worst split the baby. If they find him guilty there will not be death sentence. If they find him guilty of lesser count he still gets double digit years in prison. CNN is rubbi g its collective hands in the hopes they find him innocent altogether.

You know how many people are going to follow FUDU around town just waiting for him to turn around and say something so hey can pop a cap in his ass? Someone will be selling tickets to get in that line.