Sega: PC market is bigger than you think

Sega reckons that the PC market is a lot bigger than most people think it is, as proven by the success of Total War.

Sega may have built it's reputation with consoles like the Mega Drive and through console games like Sonic, but it's actually gone on to become one of the most important and biggest PC publishers of recent years - a market which Sega's UK director John Clark says is a lot bigger than is often reported.

In fact, Clark reckons that many of the facts and figures that publishers rely on to understand the PC platform may be a bit misleading because they often don't take digital distribution fully into account.

“The PC market is third in terms of its year-on-year performance with a decline of 26 per cent, but this doesn’t really reflect the full picture,” said Clark in a comment to MCV.

“The PC digital download business is now a viable sector but somewhat invisible as it’s not yet covered by Chart-Track. The PC market overall is actually performing much better than is currently reported and remains a vital and strong sector to be involved in.”

Sega as a company may not be synonymous with the PC, but it's important to remember that the publisher owns developer Creative Assembly, who put out the Total War titles. They also publish Football Manager and the Aliens vs. Predator games.

“Napoleon: Total War, Football Manager 2010 and Aliens vs Predator are three different styles of game from three different genres. They can all drive a strong, community fan base with the ability to consistently deliver endless hours of gameplay. Incidentally, they are all developed in the UK."

The reason they conveniently ignore the digital marketplace is because if they were to include it, it would be much harder to justify all the saber rattling about piracy and then they wouldn't be able to push crappy drm down our throats. Greedy pigs.

Not to mention the ridiculous notion that they should have the power to ban peole from the internet.

I've taken my son to LAN party's on occasion hosted by older adults. Yesterday he went to one being hosted by kids his age. I was dumbstruck, thinking what are teenage boys doing having a PC LAN party? I thought it was all about consoles for them. I saw it as PC gaming on the upswing (becoming popular) again.

Hmmm I switched from console to pc about a year ago, so too did a couple of my mates as they watched what I was doing. Dont really know why except I started tinkering with the computer and then reading more and more on it on the web... Alongside games there's a whole plethora of tech to get buried in, which makes it a hobbie as well as a pastime- like learning to overclock properly and the satisfaction of making ur pc stable and knowing how and why. Lookin forward to my second 5870 vapour x to arrive next week and seeing how smooth things run after. Definately think the market is returning to the gamestores for new releases due to high online prices as there are more copies of new released pc games on shelves fir the last few months

I think, as the current-gen of consoles becomes older PC gaming IS becoming more popular.

Especially as Sony And Microsoft (apparenly) Have no plans for a new console until 4 or 5 years time, Meaning the 360 will be 10 years old by the time it gets an upgrade, and 10 years is a long time it hardware land.

As far as "most of the PC game sales are old games" I agree, I think this is mainly due to our wonderful steam sales.

Originally Posted by mastorofpuppetzFIZZBAN are you for real? You must be retarded, because what you posted was a large pile of wrong. Educate yourself about how massive the PC game library is idiot.

FIZZBAN, do you even PC game or are you just trolling? Don't forget Capcom jumped on the PC side recently. Historically console devs supporting PC gaming now, hmmm. Believe them or Fizzan? Or course the same can be said for companies like EPIC jumping from PC to console but they IMHO where bought out by Microsoft aka sellouts.

Seriously when you look at consoles they really don't have much going for them when it comes to actual unique games. They are riding on PC gamings coat tails. The huge majority of hits are from PC (some ex) gaming developers and also are FPS which if compared side by side the majority of gamers would pick the PC version. Unfortunately console gamers need to be educated about the PC gaming platform. PC gaming has no champion to promote it. IT survives on its own word of mouth.

There have been so many great PC games released over the past couple years I cannot keep up. I'm still looking at buying 4 or 5 just released in the past couple months. I have a half dozen I've bought still unwrapped sitting on my desk. I used to at least unwrap them, install and play for 10 mins. I don't even have time for that now. :)

Originally Posted by mastorofpuppetzFIZZBAN are you for real? You must be retarded, because what you posted was a large pile of wrong. Educate yourself about how massive the PC game library is idiot.

FIZZBAN, do you even PC game or are you just trolling? Don't forget Capcom jumped on the PC side recently. Historically console devs supporting PC gaming now, hmmm. Believe them or Fizzan? Or course the same can be said for companies like EPIC jumping from PC to console but they IMHO where bought out by Microsoft aka sellouts.
Why is it that everytime someone disagrees with something here they're a "troll"? You CLEARLY ignored the fact that they said "The PC market is third in terms of its year-on-year performance with a decline of 26 per cent". The ONLY market he's talking about is the "digital download market" where Valve has over 90% of. The market is DOMINATED by the console, and this will continue into the forseeable future. Nvidia just released a new $500+ video card with no games that even justify it's purchase...it's a joke! The card is sold out if I'm not mistaken! Lol!! Capcom critized the PC because of piracy. I agree with FIZZBAN, it's full of old ass games. Just look at the top ten chart! How long has Sims 3, Football Manager, been there? WoW "just" fell off. The ONLY thing happening on the PC... is the console. Believe "you" or Fizzban...I believe Fizzban

Quote:

Seriously when you look at consoles they really don't have much going for them when it comes to actual unique games. They are riding on PC gamings coat tails. The huge majority of hits are from PC (some ex) gaming developers and also are FPS which if compared side by side the majority of gamers would pick the PC version. Unfortunately console gamers need to be educated about the PC gaming platform. PC gaming has no champion to promote it. IT survives on its own word of mouth.

If anybody is trolling here it is you. It's like you're "TRYING" to start something. PC gaming is not some hidden, underground way to game. EVERYBODY knows about PC gaming that has a PC, and even those that don't. They just choose to game on consoles because it makes more sense. Hell, PC gamers choose to game on consoles because it makes more sense. But this doesnât really reflect the full picture, as there are more multi-platform gamers here on bit-tech than is currently being reported.

Quote:

There have been so many great PC games released over the past couple years I cannot keep up. I'm still looking at buying 4 or 5 just released in the past couple months. I have a half dozen I've bought still unwrapped sitting on my desk. I used to at least unwrap them, install and play for 10 mins. I don't even have time for that now. :)

Sure there have, most of them console ports, but still good games. You're a "game collector" not unlike the DVD collected who has 10,000 DVDs in a 10ft tower, doesn't watch them but keeps buying them!

Originally Posted by mastorofpuppetzFIZZBAN are you for real? You must be retarded, because what you posted was a large pile of wrong. Educate yourself about how massive the PC game library is idiot.

Why is he wrong? Note: I'm neither for nor against either platform, but I'm curious if you can offer a rebuttal grounded more in reason and logic and less in petty name calling.

In recent newspaper ads, I've seen a growing push for certain laptops/media center hubs. Personally, I think the long-term trend is for consoles and PCs to become nearly indistinguishable. The PS3 already acts more as an interface between movies, on-line content, television, and games, and I don't think the other console developers are content to let Sony simply walk away with a device that has so many functions. Could a computer device with 6 cores and 8GB of RAM play a game on one monitor, stream a wireless TV signal to another, and run a VOIP application in the background? I think that's where the industry is headed.

With wireless connectivity getting better every year, and as more devices become integrated into the wireless home environment, I can see generic media centers becoming more common. Will it be the next generation of consoles? Will it be the PC? Will it be a hybrid of the two?

Is PC gaming dieing? Is console gaming dieing. Is one or the other actually on the rise? The answers are: yes, yes, and yes.

Originally Posted by Warrior24_7PC gaming is not some hidden, underground way to game. EVERYBODY knows about PC gaming that has a PC...

I can't really comment on your own experience. But in the UK and London, most people do their 'high-end' gaming via consoles, whereas AAA level PC gaming is like some kind of "hidden, underground way to game".

Some people I know who work in various high street stores, such as PC World, can also confirm the general lack of public awareness about PC gaming.

Of course, everyone already knows about popular PC casual games like Solitaire, MSN games, and Facebook games. So in that sense, everyone does know about PC gaming. But very casual gaming.

AAA level PC gaming has almost zero advertizing for the general public and relies mostly on word of mouth.

When it comes to AAA level gaming, people may walk into a PC World store looking to buy what they see 24/7 on TV: XBOX or PS3.

Even if they accidentally notice a PC version of Call Of Duty on the shelf, they don't normally know what to think of it, because nobody has explained it to them. They don't know, for example, how it's gonna play and whether it will be as good as the console versions. So they automatically think it can't ever be like an XBOX game.

Most customers don't stand there thinking: "Should I get the game for PS3, XBOX or PC?"; "Should I get the digital download version of the game from Steam?"; "Should I upgrade my PC's graphics card for this game?"; "How much is an exact 'XBOX-equivalent' PC graphics card gonna cost".

No. They are more likely to only be thinking of XBOX or PS3, because that's all they really know about.

My own experience has proven that once people are educated about all of their choices and not just the ones heavily advertized on TV, I have been surprised how easy many people have gotten into PC gaming, and more and more console gamers are asking me to build them a Gaming PC. I'm not saying everyone is going to rush towards PC gaming. But the fact here is that the general lack of public awareness about higher-end PC gaming is a much bigger reason for most living rooms being console-only than any other factor.

The article talks about digital download versions of PC games and how the focus on the year-on-year reduced PC sales can mislead you into thinking that less and less people each year are buying games for PC. I don't know what the real true world statistics are.

However, over the years, I have bought less and less boxed retail PC games, and I have contributed to the year-on-year PC game declining statistics. Instead, I have purchased most games for digital download from online stores, such as Steam, Metaboli and EA download store.

Originally Posted by Warrior24_7PC gaming is not some hidden, underground way to game. EVERYBODY knows about PC gaming that has a PC...

Quote:

I can't really comment on your own experience. But in the UK and London, most people do their 'high-end' gaming via consoles, whereas AAA level PC gaming is like some kind of "hidden, underground way to game".

Some people I know who work in various high street stores, such as PC World, can also confirm the general lack of public awareness about PC gaming.

First off, what is AAA level PC gaming? Define this. Is it playing console ports like Assassin's Creed, Call of Duty, or Bioshock on the PC? What is it?

Quote:

Of course, everyone already knows about popular PC casual games like Solitaire, MSN games, and Facebook games. So in that sense, everyone does know about PC gaming. But very casual gaming.

Exactly, so when they realize that they must "upgrade" their internet PCs they refuse and buy the console version. When I told a few people this (in-laws) they actually became upset! "Why?" "Thats too much money!", "well the kids can bring their games over here then!"

Quote:

AAA level PC gaming has almost zero advertizing for the general public and relies mostly on word of mouth.

Really? Everytime I see a multi-platform game advertised on TV it's PC version is standing right along side whatever console version is being advertised. WoW has commercials as well ("Mr T" anyone?) , is very well known, and has to be the most popular PC game of all time, except for maybe the Sims.

Quote:

When it comes to AAA level gaming, people may walk into a PC World store looking to buy what they see 24/7 on TV: XBOX or PS3.

Even if they accidentally notice a PC version of Call Of Duty on the shelf, they don't normally know what to think of it, because nobody has explained it to them. They don't know, for example, how it's gonna play and whether it will be as good as the console versions. So they automatically think it can't ever be like an XBOX game.

The first thing that they need to know is if their PC can even handle the game. It's quite frustrating to go into a store to buy a game and end up having to pay for extra stuff just to play it. This, I believe turns alot of people away form PC gaming.

Quote:

Most customers don't stand there thinking: "Should I get the game for PS3, XBOX or PC?"; "Should I get the digital download version of the game from Steam?"; "Should I upgrade my PC's graphics card for this game?"; "How much is an exact 'XBOX-equivalent' PC graphics card gonna cost".

Why would you buy an "exact xbox equivalent" PC graphic card if you already have an Xbox? Just to play the exact same game? It's stupid. See, when actually helped by an individual who is willing to tell them the truth, vice trying to sell them something, or listening to a fanboy sales pitch, the customer can make "his" own choice. I am this type of customer.

Quote:

No. They are more likely to only be thinking of XBOX or PS3, because that's all they really know about.

Again, I disagree since the PC has a penetration factor of just about every modern household. It's just that "casual" gamers prefer the casual games on the PC. More people play solitaire than Assassin's Creed PC!

Quote:

My own experience has proven that once people are educated about all of their choices and not just the ones heavily advertized on TV, I have been surprised how easy many people have gotten into PC gaming, and more and more console gamers are asking me to build them a Gaming PC. I'm not saying everyone is going to rush towards PC gaming. But the fact here is that the general lack of public awareness about higher-end PC gaming is a much bigger reason for most living rooms being console-only than any other factor.

I disagree, so called "hardcore" PC gaming is dead IMO (what is that anyway). I think of it as big expensive rigs and such. Yes there are those that still do it, but the trend and gaming in general is going more and more casual. Look at the 3rd gen PS3 and 360 games coming out now. There is literally no PC equivilent now or in development at this time, no matter what video card you're pushing. Even then, the cost to go DX11 is what $300, $400, $500!

"The world of video games is changing and the companies involved in it have to adapt to a broader and less hardcore market"

"The audience is moving beyond males. The platforms are becoming mobile, social and online-connected. And the play style is moving from hardcore to casual. The business models are in flux as well."-Rich Hilleman, the chief creative officer of Electronic Arts.

I agree with this line of thinking wholeheartedly.

Quote:

The article talks about digital download versions of PC games and how the focus on the year-on-year reduced PC sales can mislead you into thinking that less and less people each year are buying games for PC. I don't know what the real true world statistics are.

They do, because they keep track of these. That is why he said there was a 26% decline. They also know how many "digital downloaded copies they sell as well.

Quote:

However, over the years, I have bought less and less boxed retail PC games, and I have contributed to the year-on-year PC game declining statistics. Instead, I have purchased most games for digital download from online stores, such as Steam, Metaboli and EA download store.

That is a personal choice, I choose to have the physical media in my hand. I also buy console first to get around all of the PC type issues with the games (limited installs, DRM, ect). Again a personal choice. Just because "Sega" said it's performing better than being reported doesn't mean $h!t really.

Quote:

These are what the article refers to as 'invisible' PC sales.

There is no such thing. Sega, Steam, EA and any other dev or publishers "knows" how many game got sold and how many were stolen. If not how would they get paid properly...exactly!! Just because some tracking company isn't asking Steam or EA what it sold, doesn't mean that they don't know. Piracy is the main concern on the PC and is often reported over what was sold.

Originally Posted by Warrior24_7 so when they realize that they must "upgrade" their internet PCs they refuse and buy the console version. When I told a few people this (in-laws) they actually became upset! "Why?" "Thats too much money!", "well the kids can bring their games over here then!"

Anyone would get upset if they heard you of all people trying to promote PC gaming.

You are well known to deliberately exaggerate the cost of PC gaming and tell people that they must have at least a $500 graphics card, so it's no surprise that you have had the complete opposite experience to the positive experience I have had.

I don't lie to people, I tell them as it is.

I tell them about minimum specs as well as what I would recommend they go for. I show them what their games will look like at each level. I show them the sharpness of true PC native resolutions compared to upscaled console resolutions. I show what advanced PC Anti-Aliasing and high PC frame rates do and they are sold.

From what I have seen, most people who are heavily into games such as The Sims or WOW, are usually not the same people who will have higher-end rigs and are interested in playing games like Crysis. In fact, a few WOW gamers I know only ever play WOW and nothing much else. I know of one particular whole family (brothers, sisters, dad, mum, uncles) who are hooked on WOW. Most of them have never heard of Crysis until I mentioned the game to them.

I have also recently started to hear console-only gamers talk to me about Crysis, only now after they read about the multiplatform Crysis 2 in a console game mag.

I have never seen the PC-exclusive original Crysis advertized anywhere that the general public can be notified about its existence.

But everyone has seen TV commercials for the XBOX-exclusive FORZA.

I also see the same multi-platform commercials you are talking about as well:

In terms of the commercials promoting the PC version, it usually means nothing more than: showing you the PC version's game cover with the other platform versions at the very end of the commercial.

Most people watching these commercials don't sit there thinking "Why would I play an exact XBOX port on a PC?" - even if they managed to properly notice that crucial one second moment in time when the PC game cover was displayed.

In terms of certain multiplatform game commercials directly 'pushing' people to buy one platform version over another, there are more than plenty of those.

At the end of the multiplatform commercial, you may witness an aggressively styled voice telling you to get the game now on XBOX 360. They will even show you the XBOX 360 console and its retail price, 'pushing' the viewer to walk into a high street store and buy a new XBOX 360 to play this game.

I would be very interested to know if you have ever heard them tell you to get the PC version and then show you an awesome gaming PC rig with a side window and all types of lights and guns hanging off the sides. Have they ever shown say an ALIENWARE with an cool alien-styled voice saying "Let the invasion begin" and telling the viewer to go to alienware.com ? :D

Again, I disagree since the PC has a penetration factor of just about every modern household. It's just that "casual" gamers prefer the casual games on the PC. More people play solitaire than Assassin's Creed PC!

Every time a new multiplatform game is coming out, I always have someone ask me if I am going to get this new game. If I say yes, the next question they ask is whether I am getting the XBOX 360 version or Playstation 3 version. If I say I'll be getting the PC version, 9 out of 10 of them did not know there was a PC version. These people watch the same TV commercials, but don't notice a PC version. These console gamers are also the very same people who also own PCs at home.

So contrary to what you are saying, PC penetration in every home does not automatically promote PC gaming.

Of course, people will play a casual game of Solitaire (I even play it sometimes) because it's there.

A lot of people get introduced to Facebook games when they log into their Facebook.

However, most of these people are never going to hear about Crysis or the PC version of Call Of Duty automatically just because they have a PC at home.

If you go into the Windows 7 games folder, you will see a link at the top of the page under "Game Providers" for "More Games from Microsoft". This link takes you to a world of more casual games. But you will notice that there is no such link to Steam or Microsoft's "Games For Windows" site which would have made sure you at least become aware of hardcore PC gaming.

Also, you talk like hardcore gaming is dying when 'most' of the console gamers I have ever met would class themselves as hardcore gamers.

Casual gaming is indeed growing, and especially with the Wii console, more females are getting into casual gaming.

Most console gamers I know laugh at any game with crap graphics, and they want the best graphics to push their console to its limits.

They prefer to play hardcore games like GTA, FORZA, Gran Turismo and Call Of Duty. They usually only play casual games, such as on a cellphone, when they haven't got access to hardcore games. They are now getting excited about Crysis 2.

These hardcore console gamers (along with hardcore PC gamers) are part of a very large market that is not going to disappear. They need to be catered for.

More games publishers will be smart to take advantage of the growing casual and internet social gaming trends.

But that doesn't mean these companies are planning to miss out on the solid hardcore gaming market.

Originally Posted by mastorofpuppetzFIZZBAN are you for real? You must be retarded, because what you posted was a large pile of wrong. Educate yourself about how massive the PC game library is idiot.

I'm fully aware of how vast the PC gaming library is. I've spent the best part of my life playing it. But I wasn't talking about that. Go read the article and then my post again. You can of course disagree, but keep your lame insults to yourself.

Originally Posted by Warrior24_7 so when they realize that they must "upgrade" their internet PCs they refuse and buy the console version. When I told a few people this (in-laws) they actually became upset! "Why?" "Thats too much money!", "well the kids can bring their games over here then!"

Quote:

Anyone would get upset if they heard you of all people trying to promote PC gaming.

You are well known to deliberately exaggerate the cost of PC gaming and tell people that they must have at least a $500 graphics card, so it's no surprise that you have had the complete opposite experience to the positive experience I have had.

First off, I don't "promote" PC gaming, in fact I don't "promote" gaming at all! People know I game, they know my whole family games, and if they have a question they ask. In this case it was family (grandparents) who wanted "to get the biggest video card there was!" Why? So the kids can play games. Now these people are old, play poker and solitaire, they have a very old PC that can't handle modern games at all. What did "I" do? I, "we", went onto the internet and looked at the biggest video card there was at the time (the GTX 280, and it's clones). Thats when jaws drop and eyes widen. We looked at everything, ram, mobos, CPUs,ect. We even went on gaming PC sites and looked at pre-built systems. Bottom line is that they needed a new PC from the case on up! "They" said it wasn't worth it, not I. Why? Because they didn't want the damn thing in the first place, they thought it was cool for the kids...and I knew this. The first thing you need to ask someone is what they already have (I already knew this) and what they intend to do. If you don't ask those questions "first", then you're selling them something that don't need and may not want, because they don't understand and have all of the facts.

Quote:

I don't lie to people, I tell them as it is.

You "promote", hence "you SELL them like it is".

Quote:

I tell them about minimum specs as well as what I would recommend they go for. I show them what their games will look like at each level. I show them the sharpness of true PC native resolutions compared to upscaled console resolutions. I show what advanced PC Anti-Aliasing and high PC frame rates do and they are sold.

Did you ask what they already had? Nope! Did you ask what they were intending to do? Nope! Did you ask what they're price range was? Nope! Did you ask what games they like? Nope! What kind of resolution did you show them? What was the screen size...Exactly!! Why did you compare anything to a console? Did they ask about the console? Did you ask if they already have a console? Nope! Did you tell them of the price difference, and show them? Nope! But "you" did tell them what "you" recommend they go for! You "SOLD them like it is".

Quote:

From what I have seen, most people who are heavily into games such as The Sims or WOW, are usually not the same people who will have higher-end rigs and are interested in playing games like Crysis. In fact, a few WOW gamers I know only ever play WOW and nothing much else. I know of one particular whole family (brothers, sisters, dad, mum, uncles) who are hooked on WOW. Most of them have never heard of Crysis until I mentioned the game to them.

It's 2010 now, let Crysis rest in peace right where it is...in the bargin bin. Did you tell them what type of rig you need to run it properly? Nope!

Quote:

I have also recently started to hear console-only gamers talk to me about Crysis, only now after they read about the multiplatform Crysis 2 in a console game mag.

Who are these people? They heard of Crysis 2, not Crysis one...in a magazine? What magazine was this? There has been like "1" very exclusive interview of the game in a "PC" mag, that showed like 2 pictures!

Quote:

I have never seen the PC-exclusive original Crysis advertized anywhere that the general public can be notified about its existence.

[QUOTE]I also see the same multi-platform commercials you are talking about as well:

In terms of the commercials promoting the PC version, it usually means nothing more than: showing you the PC version's game cover with the other platform versions at the very end of the commercial.

Quote:

Um..let me get this straight, if the multi-platform game is advertised, and it's for the PS3, and ALL THREE BOXES are being displayed AT THE SAME TIME, at the end of the commercial. That would suggest to anyone who is NOT a door knob, that the game is available on all three platforms.

Quote:

Most people watching these commercials don't sit there thinking "Why would I play an exact XBOX port on a PC?" - even if they managed to properly notice that crucial one second moment in time when the PC game cover was displayed.

Yes people do say that. I've said that. I am a multi-platform gamer so there are certain games I'd buy for certain systems. If all you have is one or the other then your choice is simple.

Quote:

In terms of certain multiplatform game commercials directly 'pushing' people to buy one platform version over another, there are more than plenty of those.

At the end of the multiplatform commercial, you may witness an aggressively styled voice telling you to get the game now on XBOX 360. They will even show you the XBOX 360 console and its retail price, 'pushing' the viewer to walk into a high street store and buy a new XBOX 360 to play this game.

If it's an exclusive game so be it. If it's multi-platform then all versions will be shown. It's up to "you" to know what "you" have an to make an informed consumer choice. For some it's difficult, because they don't see the dancing jewel cases with the arrows pointing at their version of the game. If you don't know...ask! Stupidity is no excuse.

[QUOTEI would be very interested to know if you have ever heard them tell you to get the PC version and then show you an awesome gaming PC rig with a side window and all types of lights and guns hanging off the sides. Have they ever shown say an ALIENWARE with an cool alien-styled voice saying "Let the invasion begin" and telling the viewer to go to alienware.com ? :D

They used to sell Alienware in Best Buy (thats where I first seen it!) , they still do sell gaming PCs and Laptops. People just don't buy them. They had ibuypower gaming PCs in Walmart as well as Linux PCs too. They didn't sell and Walmart dumped them. People aren't buying this stuff. It was there, they see it and walk away from it. The PC market isn't declining 26% per year for nothing!

Actually I am not a professional salesman actively promoting PC gaming. Hence why some of my long time friends have only recently gotten into PC gaming only after either seeing one of my PC builds or by gathering enough information from me regarding their curiosity about why I usually get the PC version of multiplatform games.

Contradicting your conclusions, they were already hardcore console gamers, so I did not need to 'sell' them the consoles that they already had.

Whenever people, family or friends, ask me these types of questions, I can't help but to be honest. It's the truth. Why am I buying the PC versions of games when I have the consoles and can buy the versions that most of my friends prefer me to buy. I have to give honest answers.

If it's for the advanced PC framerates or to take advantage of high def FRAPS game recording, then I am not gonna lie.

When the PC version of Dirt 2 demo was released last year, one of my friends who rarely visits sat in the room the first time I fired up the demo on the PC. The first comment he made when he found out I was loading on PC and not PS3 or XBOX, was: "It won't look good, will it?". Anyway, as soon as the game loaded, he said "The picture looks so clear." His exact words. Now, to cut a long story short, I have since built him a PC. He could have upgraded his original, but would have been advised to change his case and power supply at least. He chose to keep his existing PC for another room and go for the option of all new parts including bluray recorder. I never told him to get a Level 10 case, but he wanted one. He thinks Level 10 are a work of art. His choice. The system is doubling up as a HTPC in his living room connected to two screens (a small monitor and 50inch HDTV). Other people have since seen his system and there's this thing called word of mouth.

Now for the real exciting part: :D

I will explain to you why most of my friends have only recently heard of Crysis. Get ready for this ... It's because .... wait ... first ... it is ... first, they don't look at the PC section of game websites. Second .... wait ... Gametrailers does not broadcast on live TV to the general public, so has nowhere near the same level of affect on the general gaming public as a website anyway. Third, we have various popular Console Game Magazines in the shops that are dedicated to reviewing and previewing console games. The latest editions are all going on about Crysis 2 and how good the graphics will be. Now as these gamers are hardcore gamers who are sold on anything with good graphics, the game is already a win. The magazines mention that Crysis 1 was PC exclusive. So guess what... they come to people like me and ask me if I have heard of Crysis. They don't even remember when I originally asked them about Crysis. Some of these people regularly visit Gametrailers and never heard of Crysis before.

2 years ago, when I asked some of these same people if they have heard of the game Crysis, they seriously thought I was talking about 'Time Crisis' for the Playstation. The only people I have ever met who heard about Crysis at the time were some existing hardcore PC gamers who already had it.

About ALIENWARE, they sell them in PC World stores. They used to also sell Dell XPS machines before Dell replaced them with their ALIENWARE brands. They also have others, such as the Acer Predator systems. These machines sell. Obviously not anywhere near the regular PCs.

They would shift a lot more ALIENWARE if PC gaming was not some kind of "hidden, underground way to game".

These machines are not going to be purchased by the average casual gamer looking to play Solitaire. A potential buyer usually needs to understand what type of games are available to play on a gaming PC, which is why some PC stores are displaying the latest PC game titles on the same shelf right next to the gaming PCs.

Originally Posted by tronActually I am not a professional salesman actively promoting PC gaming. Hence why some of my long time friends have only recently gotten into PC gaming only after either seeing one of my PC builds or by gathering enough information from me regarding their curiosity about why I usually get the PC version of multiplatform games.

Contradicting your conclusions, they were already hardcore console gamers, so I did not need to 'sell' them the consoles that they already had.

If you're a "hardcore" gamer, then gaming on all platforms is quite natural.

Quote:

Whenever people, family or friends, ask me these types of questions, I can't help but to be honest. It's the truth. Why am I buying the PC versions of games when I have the consoles and can buy the versions that most of my friends prefer me to buy. I have to give honest answers.

If it's for the advanced PC framerates or to take advantage of high def FRAPS game recording, then I am not gonna lie.

If thats why "you" buy PC games, then so be it.

Quote:

When the PC version of Dirt 2 demo was released last year, one of my friends who rarely visits sat in the room the first time I fired up the demo on the PC. The first comment he made when he found out I was loading on PC and not PS3 or XBOX, was: "It won't look good, will it?". Anyway, as soon as the game loaded, he said "The picture looks so clear." His exact words. Now, to cut a long story short, I have since built him a PC. He could have upgraded his original, but would have been advised to change his case and power supply at least. He chose to keep his existing PC for another room and go for the option of all new parts including bluray recorder. I never told him to get a Level 10 case, but he wanted one. He thinks Level 10 are a work of art. His choice. The system is doubling up as a HTPC in his living room connected to two screens (a small monitor and 50inch HDTV). Other people have since seen his system and there's this thing called word of mouth.

"You are well known to deliberately exaggerate the cost of PC gaming and tell people that they must have at least a $500 graphics card, so it's no surprise that you have had the complete opposite experience to the positive experience I have had."-tron

Orily?!!

"He could have upgraded his original, but would have been advised to change his case and power supply at least. He chose to keep his existing PC for another room and go for the option of all new parts including bluray recorder. I never told him to get a Level 10 case, but he wanted one."-tron

Bwahahahaha!!! Some friend you are. A level 10?!!! The leaning tower of Pc-za? He went from needing a case and PSU to...THAT?!! You have the nerve to accuse "me"? How do you go from not knowing $h!t, to a level 10?!! Lol!

"Actually I am not a professional salesman actively promoting PC gaming."-tron

What?!! Really? Wow, you really worked your buddy over good. As for my "conclusions"...they stand. Damn thats funny. That is EXACTLY what I'm talking about, he could've done better and cheaper there if he was advised properly. He wasn't.

Quote:

Now for the real exciting part: :D

Please...no more...doubled over...so funny!

Quote:

I will explain to you why most of my friends have only recently heard of Crysis. Get ready for this ... It's because .... wait ... first ... it is ... first, they don't look at the PC section of game websites. Second .... wait ... Gametrailers does not broadcast on live TV to the general public, so has nowhere near the same level of affect on the general gaming public as a website anyway. Third, we have various popular Console Game Magazines in the shops that are dedicated to reviewing and previewing console games. The latest editions are all going on about Crysis 2 and how good the graphics will be. Now as these gamers are hardcore gamers who are sold on anything with good graphics, the game is already a win. The magazines mention that Crysis 1 was PC exclusive. So guess what... they come to people like me and ask me if I have heard of Crysis. They don't even remember when I originally asked them about Crysis. Some of these people regularly visit Gametrailers and never heard of Crysis before.

Again, the "clueless hardcore gamer". Maybe our gamers over here are a little more savy or something. I can't call these people hardcore anything, if they don't even know the biggest or best games being launched or played on PC or otherwise. If you're into "gaming", then you know these things. There is just too much information and advertising out there to be so ignorant, and "hardcore" at the same time. Sorry, not buying it.

Quote:

2 years ago, when I asked some of these same people if they have heard of the game Crysis, they seriously thought I was talking about 'Time Crisis' for the Playstation. The only people I have ever met who heard about Crysis at the time were some existing hardcore PC gamers who already had it.

Well since Crysis was already in the bargin bin at that time, I don't doubt this.

Quote:

About ALIENWARE, they sell them in PC World stores. They used to also sell Dell XPS machines before Dell replaced them with their ALIENWARE brands. They also have others, such as the Acer Predator systems. These machines sell. Obviously not anywhere near the regular PCs.

Or anywhere near what consoles do, probably in the same store.

Quote:

They would shift a lot more ALIENWARE if PC gaming was not some kind of "hidden, underground way to game".

They're not shifting these PCs because people are not buying them! The same thing happened here. They're sitting on the shelves in OBVIOUS plain view of the customer. You act like "nobody" knows about PC gaming, and if they ONLY knew. No, people know, they just don't care.

Quote:

These machines are not going to be purchased by the average casual gamer looking to play Solitaire. A potential buyer usually needs to understand what type of games are available to play on a gaming PC, which is why some PC stores are displaying the latest PC game titles on the same shelf right next to the gaming PCs.

Exactly! I bet the iPad outsold Alienware this month at launch!! That is the point. The mainstream people are casual gamers at best, and they're NOT going to spend that kind of money on a PC. Numbers don't lie, -26% per year is real. Pc gaming is niche, or fast becoming so.

Um, many things sit on the shelf...ever been to Walmart? Most things aren't noticed unless there's some advertising going on.

Yes I have been to Walmart, thats why I know what I'm talking about. They had those PCs in there and removed them. Best Buy removed their gaming (desktop) PCs as well. I think they might carry Velocity Micro. They even moved their PC games away from the console games on the other side of the store.

Originally Posted by EltonThen it's clearly apparent that PCs aren't getting their fair share of attention.

Yeah, from the customers. They were properly displayed. This is a business, they "do" want to sell them, and they're not hidden. I saw them, there were people around looking at "other" PC stuff. I saw the move of the PC games away from the console area as a way to give the PC games "more" attention as they are right in the PC section and don't have to compete with console games...it's not working.

Originally Posted by Warrior24_7Yeah, from the customers. They were properly displayed. This is a business, they "do" want to sell them, and they're not hidden. I saw them, there were people around looking at "other" PC stuff. I saw the move of the PC games away from the console area as a way to give the PC games "more" attention as they are right in the PC section and don't have to compete with console games...it's not working.

I'll believe that they're given the utmost advertising when they give a gaming PC a chair, and an actual demo display of any game.

You see Warrior, this is what happens when you lose all your ability to properly refute the opposition's arguments: You begin to argue against your own self.

What you are doing now is like school playground tactics. Like when a kid says, "yes it is". The other kid says, "No it aint". Then it goes back and forth, "Yes it is / No it aint / Yes it is / No it aint", with no real intelligent debating. This is why people on forums get confused into thinking you are a small child.

I spoke about MY experience of being asked to build PCs. How did you respond? You started inventing your own conclusions out of thin air:

Quote Warrior - "Did you ask what they already had? Nope! Did you ask what they were intending to do? Nope! Did you ask what they're price range was? Nope! Did you ask what games they like? Nope! What kind of resolution did you show them? What was the screen size...Exactly!! Why did you compare anything to a console? Did they ask about the console? Did you ask if they already have a console? Nope! Did you tell them of the price difference, and show them? Nope! But "you" did tell them what "you" recommend they go for! You "SOLD them like it is"."

But what's really funny is that even after I came back and explained that these people have their own minds, and the example with the TT Level 10 PC case was all HIS choice, rather than move on, you then began the 'schoolboy' playground tactics again. Just arguing for the sake of arguing. My friend has absolutely no regrets with this case. In fact, the amount of positive attention it gets by others in his living room is incredible. Whether you hate it or love it, it's quite impressive to look at. Like something of a classic artwork displayed in a gallery. Which doesn't really matter anyway. I shouldn't even have to explain all this. What really counts is that HE saw the previews, HE loved it, HE pre-ordered it, and HE is now enjoying it. Facts. Even if I COULD have stopped him, What kind of a friend would I be to stop him from getting HIS dream case.

When you spoke about YOUR own personal experience about upsetting your relative with the cost of upgrading their PC, I wasn't surprised they got upset. Nobody on this forum would be surprised. You came back, explained yourself and, even though I'm still not surprised they got upset, I still moved on and left the argument there. Because there's no point going round and round in circles 24/7 :)

I explained the general lack of public awareness about Hardcore PC gaming, not only from direct feedback, but also from speaking with people I know who work in certain stores and can confirm similar public ignorance.

Most customers don't know they can hook their PC up to the TV, for example. Most people can't name more than one AAA PC game. But even people who haven't yet purchased a console, can name game titles that may also appear on the PC platform.

Just because World Of Warcraft ads are on TV all the time, does not mean people should automatically be knowledgeable about hardcore PC gaming. Or knowledgeable about Crysis.

Don't get me wrong, I am also surprised that so many people are so ignorant about hardcore PC gaming. I still meet people who are totally unaware that they can use their XBOX controllers on their PC. For every one person who knows, there's at least 9 who don't know.

I have heard the most ridiculous questions from gamers asking about the PC. One person thought hardcore PC games were about the actual XBOX discs being installed on a PC. No lie, this is recently. A work colleague. He has an XBOX, and when I told him I was playing a certain game on the PC platform, he asked me how can he also get to play HIS xbox games on his PC. He asked if He should just put the disc in. Then I had to explain that PC versions of these games are actually different games for windows format that you buy specifically for the PC. Now just as shocked as you are to hear this, I was shocked as well.

You can say it's because PC gaming is a kind of ... how should I describe it ? ... a "hidden, underground way to game". The ignorance is out there. And there are reasons why it's out there. You think ads about World Of Warcraft are enough to educate people.

In TV advertizing, there is a big difference between the audience seeing something and actually acknowledging it. This is how certain multiplatform ads fail to properly get through to the masses about hardcore PC gaming. In the split second that the PC box may be displayed on the screen, most people will take that time to look for the box / icon / logo that relates to the platforms that they already expect to get the game on. Maybe there's another explanation. However, on a general public gamers level, somehow, the ignorance continues. Which could be further explained by the fact that many ads for multiplatform games. Yes the multiplatform games, end the ad by showing the viewer one of the consoles and telling them to get the game now on that platform.

There are no such direct PC supporting ads for hardcore games. So psychologically, this increases public ignorance further, and would explain why the same viewer will walk into a PC World store the next day looking for the same console for their hardcore gaming needs. They are told that hardcore gaming = XBOX or PS3. This is why people who have noticed PC versions of certain hardcore games like GTA will usually mentally skip past it. Because they are constantly being recommended to get the consoles by TV ads that broadcast on main channels primetime nationwide to an audience of 20 million or so viewers.

From my own direct experince, once a lot of these graphics-hungry hardcore console gamers see a hardcore PC rig playing their favorite games with better graphics, that's when I can confirm how ignorant they previously were, and how quickly they become interested in hardcore PC gaming.

This brings me back to the issues some stores are having when selling high end gaming PCs. The reaction that people have is generally very positive when they look at the awesomeness of the actual PC hardware. But at the end of the day, most potential buyers, don't really know how the experience will be when they get home compared with hardcore consoles.

All the TV ads are recommending consoles because the game publishers are given incentives by Microsoft and Sony to promote them. Most people don't know about Steam. Most people have only heard of a very small number of PC games like World Of Warcraft, which doesn't appeal to everyone.

The public ignorance is further compounded by Microsoft who do not want any hardcore gaming attention taken away from the XBOX and given to the PC, due to the obvious money they will lose on XBOX sales and lost XBOX game sales if much more potential customers were properly educated about hardcore PC gaming and how you can get graphics even more 'hardcore' than the console versions. Plus all the other PC specific benefits.

Again, this would explain why Microft would not dare to include a link within the 'game provider' section of the Windows 7 Games Folder to their hardcore PC gaming store: "Games For Windows". But they don't mind providing a link to their MSN for causual gaming. No matter how popular PC casual gaming gets, it will never take away potential XBOX sales. Why? Because most people who buy XBOX 360's are people such as my friends who prefer hardcore gaming.

Microsoft will only promote PC gaming so far, such as showcasing the latest Direct X at an exhibition. They want to give an extra benefit of Windows over Mac: Gaming. But where Microsoft will stop promoting PC gaming is well before it eats into any real XBOX sales. They don't mind more PC gamers getting into XBOX gaming. But not the other way round. Hence why the Games For Windows website has a link at the bottom of the home page to the XBOX website. But the XBOX homepage has no such link to the Games For Windows site. Microsoft are scared of the potential lost XBOX sales, and prefer hardcore PC gaming to be a "hidden, underground way to game" :)

Originally Posted by EltonI'll believe that they're given the utmost advertising when they give a gaming PC a chair, and an actual demo display of any game.

The other day I walked into a large Curry's MegaStore. As you walk in, they had the console game shelves located right beside the actual console stands that were playing the latest games for people to walk in and play.

The PC game section was on the side of the console section with absolutely no PC hardware in site. Guess what? The actual PCs were at the complete opposite side of the building. When I managed to find the gaming PC section, they had an impressive line-up, including the new Alienware Aurora. But guess what? It wasn't even switched on. There wasn't a single PC that was playing any PC games. And this example I have given is quite typical accross the nation. Then one wonders why there's so much lack of public awareness. :?

You see Warrior, this is what happens when you lose all your ability to properly refute the opposition's arguments: You begin to argue against your own self.

What you are doing now is like school playground tactics. Like when a kid says, "yes it is". The other kid says, "No it aint". Then it goes back and forth, "Yes it is / No it aint / Yes it is / No it aint", with no real intelligent debating. This is why people on forums get confused into thinking you are a small child.

"The other kid says, "No it aint".-tron
So I guess you're the other little kid, there is no confusion there now is it.

Quote:

I spoke about MY experience of being asked to build PCs. How did you respond? You started inventing your own conclusions out of thin air:

Oh, you mean like these conclusions?

"Anyone would get upset if they heard you of all people trying to promote PC gaming."-tron

"You are well known to deliberately exaggerate the cost of PC gaming and tell people that they must have at least a $500 graphics card, so it's no surprise that you have had the complete opposite experience to the positive experience I have had."-tron

Quote:

"Did you ask what they already had? Nope! Did you ask what they were intending to do? Nope! Did you ask what they're price range was? Nope! Did you ask what games they like? Nope! What kind of resolution did you show them? What was the screen size...Exactly!! Why did you compare anything to a console? Did they ask about the console? Did you ask if they already have a console? Nope! Did you tell them of the price difference, and show them? Nope! But "you" did tell them what "you" recommend they go for! You "SOLD them like it is".

Well... at least I was right!:D

Quote:

But what's really funny is that even after I came back and explained that these people have their own minds, and the example with the TT Level 10 PC case was all HIS choice, rather than move on, you then began the 'schoolboy' playground tactics again. Just arguing for the sake of arguing. My friend has absolutely no regrets with this case. In fact, the amount of positive attention it gets by others in his living room is incredible. Whether you hate it or love it, it's quite impressive to look at. Like something of a classic artwork displayed in a gallery. Which doesn't really matter anyway. I shouldn't even have to explain all this. What really counts is that HE saw the previews, HE loved it, HE pre-ordered it, and HE is now enjoying it. Facts. Even if I COULD have stopped him, What kind of a friend would I be to stop him from getting HIS dream case.

Like something of a classic artwork displayed in a gallery huh? Then why don't "you" think so?!!
"It isn't the most beautiful case IMHO. From some angles, such as directly looking at the front, it can look a bit ugly. But the case is definitely different - but then, "different" doesn't necessarily automatically = good."-tron

"I have recently done a build with this case and it leans like the one in the photo."-tron

This is what I'm talking about. Here is a guy (according to "you") who visits "rarely". Who had no intentions of buying anything when he came! Sees you playing a "demo" game of all things and asks about the game. After listening to your advice, he goes from only needing a PSU and a case, but comes out of it with an $800, overpriced, monstrosity the size of a small child, that leans like palm tree in a storm! This guy IS NOT a hardcore gamer and never even heard of a Level 10 before, and now all of a sudden this is his dream case?!! What "else" did you put in this case tron?!! What kinda friend are you?!! Friends don't let friends waste money! You could've advised him better than that. You didn't. Didn't "you" say that you tell people which way to go?!!

Quote:

When you spoke about YOUR own personal experience about upsetting your relative with the cost of upgrading their PC, I wasn't surprised they got upset. Nobody on this forum would be surprised. You came back, explained yourself and, even though I'm still not surprised they got upset, I still moved on and left the argument there. Because there's no point going round and round in circles 24/7 :)

Be surprised, I WILL NOT/DID NOT take advantage of their ignorance about PC hardware just to see them get an overrated PC that they did not need.

Quote:

I explained the general lack of public awareness about Hardcore PC gaming, not only from direct feedback, but also from speaking with people I know who work in certain stores and can confirm similar public ignorance.

These people are not gamers.

Quote:

Most customers don't know they can hook their PC up to the TV, for example. Most people can't name more than one AAA PC game. But even people who haven't yet purchased a console, can name game titles that may also appear on the PC platform.

Most people can't hook a PC to their TV! Whats a AAA PC game anyway?

Quote:

Just because World Of Warcraft ads are on TV all the time, does not mean people should automatically be knowledgeable about hardcore PC gaming. Or knowledgeable about Crysis.

Don't get me wrong, I am also surprised that so many people are so ignorant about hardcore PC gaming. I still meet people who are totally unaware that they can use their XBOX controllers on their PC. For every one person who knows, there's at least 9 who don't know.

If people were interested in that game, it could lead them into playing other games. All games don't get advertising. Gamers who dumped the PC are tired of the PC and it's issues. Why do you keep bringing up Crysis. The game is old now, VERY old. PC gamers don't care about it, so why should the general gaming public care. The game's graphics have been bested by the console for sometime now so there is no real reason to keep looking back at that game anymore unless yuo think this 3 yr old game is the best thing that the PC has going for it? If that the case, then no wonder people are migrating away, there is nothing here to keep them! Where is that PC exclusive blockbuster?!! Exactly.

Quote:

I have heard the most ridiculous questions from gamers asking about the PC. One person thought hardcore PC games were about the actual XBOX discs being installed on a PC. No lie, this is recently. A work colleague. He has an XBOX, and when I told him I was playing a certain game on the PC platform, he asked me how can he also get to play HIS xbox games on his PC. He asked if He should just put the disc in. Then I had to explain that PC versions of these games are actually different games for windows format that you buy specifically for the PC. Now just as shocked as you are to hear this, I was shocked as well.

Well, these people aren't gamers to begin with, let alone hardcore. Just because someone has a particular platform and a few games doesn't give him/her hardcore status. He is just as ignorant about his console as he is about the PC.

Quote:

You can say it's because PC gaming is a kind of ... how should I describe it ? ... a "hidden, underground way to game". The ignorance is out there. And there are reasons why it's out there. You think ads about World Of Warcraft are enough to educate people.

People have PCs, they just choose to game elsewhere like consoles. PCs have failed to capture the casual market in a way that makes it mainstream. There is no interest outside of the truly hardcore. PC gamers have moved away from this platform and embraced consoles as well, or dropped the PC altogether . You have so why can't you understand that? You added to the growth of consoles.

Quote:

In TV advertizing, there is a big difference between the audience seeing something and actually acknowledging it. This is how certain multiplatform ads fail to properly get through to the masses about hardcore PC gaming. In the split second that the PC box may be displayed on the screen, most people will take that time to look for the box / icon / logo that relates to the platforms that they already expect to get the game on. Maybe there's another explanation. However, on a general public gamers level, somehow, the ignorance continues. Which could be further explained by the fact that many ads for multiplatform games. Yes the multiplatform games, end the ad by showing the viewer one of the consoles and telling them to get the game now on that platform.

They don't want the games, its as simple as that. The games that are in the top ten chart are games that were purchased...in stores. Bit-tech includes the Steam chart, but why, to inflate the level of PC popularity? I never understood that. Thats like charting who buys what on Xbox Live, who cares?

Quote:

There are no such direct PC supporting ads for hardcore games. So psychologically, this increases public ignorance further, and would explain why the same viewer will walk into a PC World store the next day looking for the same console for their hardcore gaming needs. They are told that hardcore gaming = XBOX or PS3. This is why people who have noticed PC versions of certain hardcore games like GTA will usually mentally skip past it. Because they are constantly being recommended to get the consoles by TV ads that broadcast on main channels primetime nationwide to an audience of 20 million or so viewers.

There is no intrest! Only hardcore gamers really play PC games now, thats it. All your big times devs fled the platform and are now making games for consoles! They're advertising the same games so don't give me that nobody knows, it's more like nobody cares.

Quote:

From my own direct experince, once a lot of these graphics-hungry hardcore console gamers see a hardcore PC rig playing their favorite games with better graphics, that's when I can confirm how ignorant they previously were, and how quickly they become interested in hardcore PC gaming.

I believe the analysts that track sales and trends for a living, and trust their views more than fanboy based accounts. I'm sorry, thats just that facts. This decline has been going on for years. They say that for various reasons, migration away from PC gaming by "PC gamers" like..."you", who realised how ignorant they previously were, purchased consoles. This trend is continuing and thats why you see the -26%growth. With epic, cinema style quality games, that can't be found anywhere on the PC, like God of War III and Uncharted 2 feed these graphic hungry, hardcore, console gamers and are an indictment against these big expensive power hungry machines that continuously fail to live up to the hype.

Quote:

This brings me back to the issues some stores are having when selling high end gaming PCs. The reaction that people have is generally very positive when they look at the awesomeness of the actual PC hardware. But at the end of the day, most potential buyers, don't really know how the experience will be when they get home compared with hardcore consoles.

Well the big box electronic stores don't sell these gaming PCs here. You can buy a gaming laptop, but thats about it. If you want one of those then build it yourself or buy it online! I checked again yesterday and Best Buy had an AMD quad Core "gaming PC" with intergrated graphics for $700!!

Quote:

The public ignorance is further compounded by Microsoft who do not want any hardcore gaming attention taken away from the XBOX and given to the PC, due to the obvious money they will lose on XBOX sales and lost XBOX game sales if much more potential customers were properly educated about hardcore PC gaming and how you can get graphics even more 'hardcore' than the console versions. Plus all the other PC specific benefits.

Now you're attacking M$? Why? It was PC gamers who attacked Games for Windows and Windows Live relentlessly before it even got off the ground! So blame youreselves for that. Now that the 360 has huge sale numbers, a huge install base, and Xbox live is the biggest and best online service on any platform, they're not looking back! You have to remember something, M$ charges for their service and they're still the biggest and the best! Nobody else does this, not Sony, Nintendo or Steam!

Quote:

Again, this would explain why Microft would not dare to include a link within the 'game provider' section of the Windows 7 Games Folder to their hardcore PC gaming store: "Games For Windows". But they don't mind providing a link to their MSN for causual gaming. No matter how popular PC casual gaming gets, it will never take away potential XBOX sales. Why? Because most people who buy XBOX 360's are people such as my friends who prefer hardcore gaming.

M$'s vision was to marry up console and PC gamers. PC gamers did not want this so they just concentrated on the 360 and let PC gaming fend for itself.

Quote:

Microsoft will only promote PC gaming so far, such as showcasing the latest Direct X at an exhibition. They want to give an extra benefit of Windows over Mac: Gaming. But where Microsoft will stop promoting PC gaming is well before it eats into any real XBOX sales. They don't mind more PC gamers getting into XBOX gaming. But not the other way round. Hence why the Games For Windows website has a link at the bottom of the home page to the XBOX website. But the XBOX homepage has no such link to the Games For Windows site. Microsoft are scared of the potential lost XBOX sales, and prefer hardcore PC gaming to be a "hidden, underground way to game" :)

Sorry to break the news to you, but the the PC can't do anything to the 360. There are many more reasons why the PC is failing than just blaming M$. Start looking at PC gamers themselves.

Warrior I don't think you realize this but Console sales DO in fact affect PC sales and vice versa. Microsoft makes TONS more off the licensing on 360 games than they do on PCs, so as any logical person would, they'd take the path that makes more money.

As for GFWL, well, they did provide a service, but one that was:

1. Badly implemented
2. couldn't top the current competition(Steam)
3. Would've worked except for #1

If you've used GFWL and then use Steam, it's almost no doubt you'd stick with Steam. It's not that we don't want to play games with 360 owners, it's that the platform to do so was so badly done that it isn't worth considering.

Quote:

I believe the analysts that track sales and trends for a living, and trust their views more than fanboy based accounts. I'm sorry, thats just that facts. This decline has been going on for years. They say that for various reasons, migration away from PC gaming by "PC gamers" like..."you", who realised how ignorant they previously were, purchased consoles. This trend is continuing and thats why you see the -26%growth. With epic, cinema style quality games, that can't be found anywhere on the PC, like God of War III and Uncharted 2 feed these graphic hungry, hardcore, console gamers and are an indictment against these big expensive power hungry machines that continuously fail to live up to the hype.

What hype? The last commercial I saw on TV about awesome PC graphics was....well I can't remember. At any rate, the decline can be attributed to 2 things:

1. Consoles haven't moved on to new tech yet; if you didn't notice, when the 360/PS3 came out with their new and shiny hardware, PC games took a HUGE skyrocket, and incidentally that was the end of the previous console gen's lifetime. So in other words, the trend for PC games and hardware is:

Peak at end of a Console's generation, lowest in the middle, and still high during a new console's induction.

2. The lack of advertisement and the costs of producing a game, with consoles having a higher exposure to the public at large, the developers don't have to worry so much, and seeing as they don't need to work on different hardware it's less costly to develop. With that said though, that means nothing if you really want to approach the graphics side of things. The PC is entirely capable of extreme graphics per-se(just look at BFBC2 on PC v Console) it's just that with a more centralized market that focuses on consoles, it's a big wonder why the PC market is smaller.

Quote:

They don't want the games, its as simple as that. The games that are in the top ten chart are games that were purchased...in stores. Bit-tech includes the Steam chart, but why, to inflate the level of PC popularity? I never understood that. Thats like charting who buys what on Xbox Live, who cares?

Who are you to say who wants what and who doesn't? You can thank the publishers for making store bought PC games more of a PITA than Steam versions...
As for BT including Steam sales...well let's see: I'm sure it constitutes as sales don't you?

Quote:

M$'s vision was to marry up console and PC gamers. PC gamers did not want this so they just concentrated on the 360 and let PC gaming fend for itself.

Actually I think we all did, it's just that if you were to use GFWL or WL you'd rip out your hair at the problems that it still hasn't addressed. And they concentrated on the 360 market not because we told them how much GFWL sucked, it's because the 360 makes more cash.

Quote:

If people were interested in that game, it could lead them into playing other games. All games don't get advertising. Gamers who dumped the PC are tired of the PC and it's issues. Why do you keep bringing up Crysis. The game is old now, VERY old. PC gamers don't care about it, so why should the general gaming public care. The game's graphics have been bested by the console for sometime now so there is no real reason to keep looking back at that game anymore unless yuo think this 3 yr old game is the best thing that the PC has going for it? If that the case, then no wonder people are migrating away, there is nothing here to keep them! Where is that PC exclusive blockbuster?!! Exactly.

Let's address all your points.

First of all the whole gamers getting tired of the PC, that's a conclusion and feeling you have not everyone else so don't use that as fact.

2ndly Crysis is old yes, but we still do like the game, just as people like TimeSplitters 2 or Goldeneye64. And as for it's graphics being bested, perhaps by 1 or 2 games, but the majority of console games are still beaten by a 3 year old game, and if all else fails, PC gamers can point in the direction of BFBC2 for more graphical goodness.

And yet again you forget that Crysis isn't the best that PC gaming's got, people never really migrated, just more people got into the consoles(w/o getting into PCs mind you) due to the mass media exposure of them.

As for the next PC blockbuster: Ask the publishers, they're more focused on milking money so...yeah. Although you can't blame them for being financially sound.

Quote:

There is no intrest! Only hardcore gamers really play PC games now, thats it. All your big times devs fled the platform and are now making games for consoles! They're advertising the same games so don't give me that nobody knows, it's more like nobody cares.

I know a bunch of not-hardcore(exactly what defines this anyways?) that play PC games, hell I know a bunch of people who play Morrowind. As for the big time devs who left, well you can't stop them nor blame them, consoles rake in more money. As for advertisements; bah don't give me that no one cares garbage, I have not seen a single ad in 4-5 years about a PC game.

IIRC Doom 3 didn't even have ads, and that was quite a while ago.

I told myself I wasn't going to argue with you this time...but oh well.

A special step-by-step guide to understanding how someone can go from not knowing anything about PC cases to knowing a lot

Duh 1: First, you may not know much. No problem, everyone starts here.

Duh 2: Then you may get introduced by a friend to certain websites that sell PC cases.

Duh 3: You read the specs and compare the ones you like the look of the most.

Duh 4: You check the prices and see if they are acceptable to YOU.

Duh 5: What if you pre-order a case that has no reviews due to the fact it is not released yet? Don't worry, you may choose to wait, or even pre-order it. If you don't like it, send it back.

DISCLAIMER: THE FOLLOWING CONVERSATION IS FICTIONAL

Warrior says: "Duh! I have a problem. I have this strange tendency to call other people "DOOR KNOBS". But what if I read your step-by-step instruction and I STILL don't understand basic logic? Should I panic?"

Tron says: "DON'T PANIC !!! I can translate the guide into a special coloring book for you. You don't need to rush it. Just take your time and color in the pictures one by one"

Well, these people aren't gamers to begin with, let alone hardcore. Just because someone has a particular platform and a few games doesn't give him/her hardcore status. He is just as ignorant about his console as he is about the PC.

Hardcore Versus Casual

We can have another debate about what is the difference between "hardcore" and "casual" games.

You were trying to make it sound like hardcore PC gaming is dying because less and less gamers want to play "hardcore" games.

Yet the best selling PS3 and XBOX games are the very same type of games that many hardcore PC gamers with high-end rigs are playing.

Such as Killzone is a similar type of "shooter" to Crysis. Halo on XBOX is quite a similar game to Halo PC.

Regardless of how popular casual gaming gets, such as "Wii Sports" (60.69 million copies sold), not many people buy XBOX 360s or Playstation 3's for casual gaming. They buy them for high graphics 'hardcore' gaming. That's why those consoles were made with higher processing power than the Wii.

My personal experiences of seeing 'console-only' gamers get into PC gaming is extremely unpalatable for you, and it completely goes against everything you want to believe. This is why you choose to smokescreen the facts and make a big issue out of whether or not I like a particular PC case that someone else chose.

I don't like the looks of the Playstation 3, at least when it's laid down and you're seeing it from the viewing angle of the front and optical drive bay under the curved top. It looks horrible. But that doesn't mean I would try to prevent one of my friends from getting their dream PS3's. I have a PS3 as well. But to be honest, if all games were available on PC, I probably wouldn't have a PS3. This is what happens unfortunately: PC gamers are 'forced' away from the platform.

Crysis Versus Killzone

You want to know why I keep on mentioning Crysis?

It's to remind you that it's not 'universally' classed as a 'casual' game, just like 'Call Of Duty' and many other 'hardcore' games that push XBOX and Playstation sales.

Killzone 2 (sold 2 million) - an over-hyped PS3 exclusive game that advertized 24/7 on national TV. Not bad.

Crysis (sold 1.5 million) - Considering the PC hardware specs required, and the fact that PC gaming is a kind of "hidden, underground way to game", Crysis (the PC exclusive with almost zero advertizing) sold extremely well.

Now imagine if Crysis was advertized like Killzone 2.

This is the type of thing that YOU fear, and this is the type of thing that MICROSOFT also fears.

The hidden, underground way to game

You mentioned how Gaming PCs are not selling in your local stores.

It doesn't surprise me at all.

These stores 'sell' PC gaming similar to the way YOU would sell it: -

Let customer walk into store and be greeted in face with 'consoles' playing all the latest games for everyone to gather around and try - But let 'Gaming PCs' be put to the back of the store without even being switched on and having any demos playing. Then scratch head and wonder why they're not selling. :)

[QUOTE=tron;2271038]A special step-by-step guide to understanding how someone can go from not knowing anything about PC cases to knowing a lot

Quote:

Duh 1: First, you may not know much. No problem, everyone starts here.

Duh 1.5: Thats why you get smart before purchasing ANYTHING, and don't rely on anyone "showing" you what to purchase. Hehe!

Quote:

Duh 2: Then you may get introduced by a friend to certain websites that sell PC cases.

Duh 2.5: See Duh 1.5

Quote:

Duh 3: You read the specs and compare the ones you like the look of the most.

Duh 3.5: What about price, performance and reviews? "Don't worry about that right now, you like the way it looks riiiiight!;)

Quote:

Duh 4: You check the prices and see if they are acceptable to YOU.

Duh 4.5: See Duh 1.5 and Duh 3.5!

Quote:

Duh 5: What if you pre-order a case that has no reviews due to the fact it is not released yet? Don't worry, you may choose to wait, or even pre-order it. If you don't like it, send it back.

Duh 5.5: See Duh 1.5

DISCLAIMER: THE FOLLOWING CONVERSATION IS FICTIONAL

Warrior says: "Duh! I have a problem. I have this strange tendency to call other people "DOOR KNOBS". But what if I read your step-by-step instruction and I STILL don't understand basic logic? Should I panic?" Because they seem to have a steep "leaning" *er* "learning" curve.

Quote:

Tron says: "DON'T PANIC !!! I can translate the guide into a special coloring book for you. You don't need to rush it. Just take your time and color in the pictures one by one" But before we do that, I have some PC cases I'd like you to look at!

So as expected, Warrior thinks he was being a smart boy to quote MY personal opinions of someone else's dream PC case. Duh!

Those are "your" words, not mine. What? You mean that you didn't want anybody to know? Hmmm...I wonder why? You just said how you felt!

Quote:

It seems there was too much bandwidth of information for him to understand the fact that the case was not bought for me, but by a friend for himself, who was absolutely determined to get this case.

He was after that fantastic special leaning feature!

Quote:

The case's unique 'leaning feature' was not advertized when he pre-ordered it.

Of course not, do you think they're stupid?!!

Quote:

Only after it was built, did I notice this fantastic special leaning feature.

So that is what you sold him on, the "fantastic", "special", leaning feature? It's a "lean", mean computing machine" literally!

Quote:

It doesn't even require a kick-stand, because the aluminium frame was specially designed to take the weight and show off the extra feature.

It leans like a pimp on a cane!

Quote:

Even without a built-in or third party kick-stand, my friend STILL thinks the case is the best and I still think it looks like an artwork you may see in a gallery :)

No you don't. ""It isn't the most beautiful case IMHO. From some angles, such as directly looking at the front, it can look a bit ugly. But the case is definitely different - but then, "different" doesn't necessarily automatically = good."-tron

We can have another debate about what is the difference between "hardcore" and "casual" games.

You were trying to make it sound like hardcore PC gaming is dying because less and less gamers want to play "hardcore" games.

No, less and less gamers want to game on the PC! They're still playing the same games, but playing them on something else. PC gamers are leaving the system and migrating to consoles, simple as that. You're one of these people.

Quote:

Yet the best selling PS3 and XBOX games are the very same type of games that many hardcore PC gamers with high-end rigs are playing.

This is exactly what I've been saying all along. Expensive high end rig, same damn DX9 console game! How many people have high end rigs? EXACTLY!!! How many people want or can afford highend rigs? EXACTLY!!! It doesn't take a highend rig to play todays games. Thats why you don't see, AND WON'T SEE any high profile PC only games.

Quote:

Regardless of how popular casual gaming gets, such as "Wii Sports" (60.69 million copies sold), not many people buy XBOX 360s or Playstation 3's for casual gaming. They buy them for high graphics 'hardcore' gaming. That's why those consoles were made with higher processing power than the Wii.

What are you talking about, you're not making any sense! The Wii is LEADING in console sales despite being inferior in ability. This is the problem, you put hardware before software. In console gaming the games come first! The software sells the hardware! The PC has it backwards. Here you have a $500, DX11 Fermi card and no games! The best looking games right now are on the console, no matter what video card you have! A DX9, 720P, console game like GoW 3 blows everything else out of the water! DX11, $500? So far, meh!

Quote:

My personal experiences of seeing 'console-only' gamers get into PC gaming is extremely unpalatable for you, and it completely goes against everything you want to believe. This is why you choose to smokescreen the facts and make a big issue out of whether or not I like a particular PC case that someone else chose.

Why would you think that? I came to PC gaming remember? I'm just not getting my moneys worth. You promoted, and sold him on a case he never even seen or heard of. You took advantage of his ignorance just to promote your version of PC gaming. It was a selfish move.

Quote:

I don't like the looks of the Playstation 3, at least when it's laid down and you're seeing it from the viewing angle of the front and optical drive bay under the curved top. It looks horrible. But that doesn't mean I would try to prevent one of my friends from getting their dream PS3's. I have a PS3 as well. But to be honest, if all games were available on PC, I probably wouldn't have a PS3. This is what happens unfortunately: PC gamers are 'forced' away from the platform.

No you're not. You're not "forced" to do anything. The PS3 has better games than the PC. Games that you can't play anywhere else, the PC doesn't have games that make you want to buy a gaming PC. There is "NOTHING" on the PC that begs you to play it...nothing!

Quote:

Crysis Versus Killzone

Killzone 2? What happened to HALO 3 and COD 4? The two games that took turns abusing it after launch. Lol!!! Scared?!! Hahahahaha!!!

Quote:

You want to know why I keep on mentioning Crysis?

I know why, because there is nothing else to point to! Nothing!! There has been nothing happening on the PC since it's release! Everything is coming off of the console! Where is the Crysis 2009, 2010 or 2011? What game? This was the most hyped game of 2007! Everything was about Crysis. The game was suppose to be a graphical show case for the PC, the HALO killer. The game launched and fell flat on it's face! It fired straight out of the cannon with a loud boom and landed 2 feet away! IT WAS A DUD! Now Crysis is on the console giving no incentive to play it on the PC. In fact, it'll play better on the console too boot. No DRM or compatibilty issues and thats a fact! EVERY console owner will have the same experience

Quote:

It's to remind you that it's not 'universally' classed as a 'casual' game, just like 'Call Of Duty' and many other 'hardcore' games that push XBOX and Playstation sales.

It reminds me of monumentous failure. The most hyped game of the year...sucked! There is no denying that, numbers don't lie, it's a fact. The console games HALO 3 and COD4 owned the game outright and embarrassed it!

Killzone 2 (sold 2 million) - an over-hyped PS3 exclusive game that advertized 24/7 on national TV. Not bad.

It totally outsold an overhyped, and overrated PC exclusive game, that recieved 12 months of continuous hype, that totally disappointed it's user base and sent it developer running for the cover of console development. Not bad? Nah, it was easy.

Quote:

Crysis (sold 1.5 million) - Considering the PC hardware specs required, and the fact that PC gaming is a kind of "hidden, underground way to game", Crysis (the PC exclusive with almost zero advertizing) sold extremely well.

It sold like $h!t. COD 4 sold 1.5 million units in 30 days, Crysis sold less than 90,000. This is the PC's "best" game too. It's a joke.

Quote:

Now imagine if Crysis was advertized like Killzone 2.

As I said before, you can't polish a turd. PC gamers flushed this thing, advertising didn't. Not even a year after it's release it was in the bargin bin, with everybody playing HALO 3 and COD 4! Get serious!

Quote:

This is the type of thing that YOU fear, and this is the type of thing that MICROSOFT also fears.

PC gaming scares no one. It's actually being ignored by devleopers and basically mocked by gamers! A platform that loses -26% per year is a threat to no one, but a disappointmet to many as they've seemed to have wasted their money.

The hidden, underground way to game

Quote:

You mentioned how Gaming PCs are not selling in your local stores.

You want a gaming desktop, then you go online or build it yourself.

Quote:

It doesn't surprise me at all.

These stores 'sell' PC gaming similar to the way YOU would sell it: -

You're right, they don't. And neither do I, because I don't have to. I let the games sell themselves! Take one look at GoW 3 and you'll buy a PS3! It's a system seller, a "killer app", and the PC doesn't have one of these. Thats why "you" must "promote", "sell" and "convince" a complete noob on PC gaming to the point he purchased an over hyped, over priced, and overrated PC case. Then you mocked his purchase after he did it. It's a damn shame. So no, you shouldn't be surprised, and neither am I.

Quote:

Let customer walk into store and be greeted in face with 'consoles' playing all the latest games for everyone to gather around and try - But let 'Gaming PCs' be put to the back of the store without even being switched on and having any demos playing. Then scratch head and wonder why they're not selling. :)

I was hoping you would try to come with some response a little bit better than the ones above, so that I could have a bit more of a challenge. But you failed.

So here's the deal

I will now lay in silence and watch your predictable response (waits for dog to return with bone).

I will filter out all the predictable 'noise' and see if there's any valid argument under the smokescreen from you that's worthy of a response.

That means any mention of an aftermarket kickstand (hehe) will be filtered out as wasted noise based on no facts.

Any other highly-predictable noisy response such as: "I am not the one retreating - you are. Because I spoke last and you didn't respond. Boo hoo" will be filtered out.

Then we will see what we're left with ... MEH ...

The truth is undeniable

So far, the best arguments we have had above are: -

Quote from Tron - "Killzone 2 (sold 2 million) - an over-hyped PS3 exclusive game that advertized 24/7 on national TV. Not bad. Crysis (sold 1.5 million) - Considering the PC hardware specs required, and the fact that PC gaming is a kind of "hidden, underground way to game", Crysis (the PC exclusive with almost zero advertizing) sold extremely well."

Now let's analyze your response, which was, quote Warrior "It (Killzone 2) totally outsold an overhyped, and overrated PC exclusive game, that recieved 12 months of continuous hype, that totally disappointed it's user base and sent it developer running for the cover of console development. Not bad? Nah, it was easy."

Ask yourselft this question. Be serious now, be serious .. Was that a valid answer meant to disprove the point that Crysis outsold Killzone in terms of the relative rate of sales to the money the publisher spent on advertizing Killzone round the clock over the world on expensive TV ads targeted at millions of gamers and potential gamers? Be serious now.

Scratch your head and think about it carefully ...

You mentioned that Crysis was hyped 12 months leading up to its release. But you failed to mention two important points: 1) What type of hype was it? Was it TV ads to millions? No. I suppose that's why most of the gaming public who are interested in hardcore games of the same genre of Crysis didn't know of its existence. Exactly, because it was only hyped on Crytek's own developer website, and the PC section of a few trailer sites, and on some PC enthusiast forums. 2) Killzone 2 also had the same type of 'hype' during 12 months leading up to its release. So try to smokescreen yourself out of this one. Considering the general lack of public exposure that Crysis had, it should never have sold as well as it did. Now that hurts doesn't it? RETREAT !

Another of your arguments go like this: -

Tron said - "You mentioned how Gaming PCs are not selling in your local stores."

Warriors attempt at responding was - "You want a gaming desktop, then you go online or build it yourself."

So tell me Warrior, do you seriously think that your response actually answered the point I was originally making, or is this another of your attempts at talking just for the sake of showing that you have managed to respond.

Let's take a closer in-depth look at your response: -

You originally tried to prove that PC gaming is dying and nobody wants to buy prebuilt gaming PCs in their local stores.

I then said I am not surprised because those stores are not advertizing the gaming PCs properly. So it's no wonder they are not selling.

Your response to that is, "You want a gaming desktop, then you go online or build it yourself." - huh !

You also later said that hardware doesn't sell games and the PC has it the wrong way round.

So according to you, games sell hardware. I'm so glad you said that.

So using your own logic, you would not fail to understand that if all the stores greet the customer as they enter the store with consoles playing demos of Call Of Duty, yet the Gaming PC is switched off and left at the back of the store for people just to stand there and marvel over it's awesome looks. Then read the specs and use their imagine of how good it could be. No 'call Of Duty' game is playing to sell the hardware. If games sell hardware, then the PC should be running a game. If it's not even switched on, and PC games (minus one game W.O.W.) are seldom advertized on TV to the general public, then What does your own logic conclude.

You can't handle the facts that prove that PC gaming is a "hidden, underground way to game".

Any mention of a console gamer getting interested in PC gaming, your response to that is: "Oh, they must have been mislead or something". So according to you, it is not possible for PC gaming to sell unless someone is 'tricked' into it.

You also think that PC gaming cannot sell itself in equal situations where it has a side-by-side level public exposure alongside consoles. An example would be for PC World stores to have Gaming PCs at the shop entrance beside the consoles playing games like Call Of Duty and Just Cause 2.

Why would YOU fear this? Hmm I wonder...

Is it because you know that a potential buyer will look at a side by side comparison of the ultra sharp resolution of the PC version versus the 'upscaled' console version?

Or is it because the Playstation 3's lack of processing power to use a suitable amount of anti-aliasing samples and rid the screen of the noticeable jaggies?

Or is it because the customer will notice a wider range of peripherals on the PC platform, such as keyboard & mouse or gamepad controller to suit the whole family's needs?

Is it because they may notice the PC version seems to be running a smoother framerate, such as 60 solid fps versus the same game on console running at 25 to 30 fps with the occasional infamous console slowdown?

You see, this is how the PC sells itself when only given the same exposure that consoles are given.

The facts are undeniable: PC gaming is a "hidden, underground way to game" :)