It's worth mentioning that sacrificing a few of the more questionable DPS talents for utility might be a good trade off. Even ignite is less than a 4.5% DPS difference from an ignite-less build (although it should probably be the last non-core DPS talent you drop). Dropping Netherwind Presence of Early Frost for Ice Shards or Improved Cone of Cold is an even smaller DPS trade off.

I go to bed and now there's questions everywhere! Alright let's see... Wall of text incoming.

Originally Posted by Phovos

Kuni, I disagree with your glyph of frostfire in the primer as well as ignite.

I think you should probably touch on the other options for glyphs (Deep freeze), and certainly the other options for specs (arcane subspec).

Well written, though. Should be great reference.

Arcane sub-spec, there's nothing really to get outside of clearcasting. Assuming RNG doesn't hate you, FFB should be doing about as much damage as ice lance over the course of a (raid boss) fight. Adding 40% of that as extra damage just can't be beat by options in arcane. There's nothing to go for. 10% damage on an interrupt that you may or may not get every 24 seconds? Missiles doesn't proc in frost, TTW works for arcane only and improved blink is overkill in my mind. Not to mention the slight gain from frostfire orb crits ignite has going for it as well.

Glyphs, the deep freeze glyph is actually our most powerful, followed by frostfire bolt. Your only real options are frostbolt and ice lance. Both are very close in DPS gains, but frostbolt was found to beat out ice lance.

Originally Posted by Vorret

Thanks, great guide.
For someone looking to start a mage, would this talent tree apply or it's mainly for end game?

I wouldn't really call this a leveling build by any means. You'd more want things like maxed permafrost and improved cone of cold for maximum control over mobs. You don't get flame orb until 81, so frostfire orb talent is useless until then.

Originally Posted by Orpa

Does that power auras code thingy include an indicator for when my pets Freeze is off cd? If not can you help me make one <3 if its even possible :d

It doesn't include one, no. My reasoning was that if deep freeze was up, you could use the elemental's freeze to get your fingers procs for it. I'll add a small thing to it for one though.

Originally Posted by Torian kel

another point to Kuni, I'm sure you are a good mage, with solid knowledge, but getting crit capped is hard atm, adn you want us to be crit capped without glyphed molten armor ? Now, let me show you what is the best math atm, talent glyphs and all

I rule this way, and managed to get throw Magmaw, Omnotron, conclave of four winds, wyrmbreaker, Valiona, council and cho'gall without getting out of mana.

I'm not saying that your build is bad, just saying it's not perfect, others have ruled out different math getting more dps

Yes, it is entirely an option to use molten armour but it is a fair bit more work and frankly, I don't feel it's a safe way to play for most people. This is pre-DF glyph, so ignore the glyph choices, but this is a mana test for two mages using glyphed molten and mage armours on Al'akir. Vontre has said that molten is not sustainable for the fight lengths. Now given that Tyrian in the first link actually managed to do it, yes, it is an option. It is however something I feel that most mages, especially ones coming here for help, might not be able to manage quite as well as using mage armour and grabbing all the DPS talents. I'll add a note in the guide about it though.

Originally Posted by TowerTom

Surely it would be better to use Cold Snap when Icy Veins has ended, and you've just done a DF? Allows for a total of 40 seconds at 20% increased casting. Then again I could be talking out of my arse.

I've got you popping frostfire orb, icy veins, deep freeze, then cold snapping, doing frostfire orb and deep freeze again and icy veins after the first expires. It might not be clear, I'll revise that section for clarity.

Originally Posted by DirewolfX

I added a link to this guide in the Index sticky.

It's worth mentioning that sacrificing a few of the more questionable DPS talents for utility might be a good trade off. Even ignite is less than a 4.5% DPS difference from an ignite-less build (although it should probably be the last non-core DPS talent you drop). Dropping Netherwind Presence of Early Frost for Ice Shards or Improved Cone of Cold is an even smaller DPS trade off.

First of all, thank you for the place in the guide sticky!

These are true, yes. I will add notes for such. I hadn't given much thought to dropping talents for more utility. I'm used to the way frost was, and squeezing every last bit of DPS out of the spec.

I believe if you have an arcane mage in that group, and you tell him that you will always almost crit. Ask him to give you their 3% crit buff (Arcane Focus), so that would close it to 20.34%

Also true, but somewhat rare and relies on both having the lowest DPS mage spec in your group and convincing him to give it to you over someone else. Seems most people want the highest DPS, which is fire right now. Still true though, I'll add a note.

Why does glyph of frostbolt beat glyph of ice lance? I'd think a damage boost to ice lance would be beat out an extra chance to crit with frostbolt, which is like the weakest spell in your rotation barring oh say freeze.

Why does glyph of frostbolt beat glyph of ice lance? I'd think a damage boost to ice lance would be beat out an extra chance to crit with frostbolt, which is like the weakest spell in your rotation barring oh say freeze.

You would think, but all the simulators have shown glyph of frostbolt to be better. It's due to the fact that despite a damage boost to ice lance, you just cast frostbolt so much more that the crit bonus is slightly better DPS.

You would think, but all the simulators have shown glyph of frostbolt to be better. It's due to the fact that despite a damage boost to ice lance, you just cast frostbolt so much more that the crit bonus is slightly better DPS.

Yeah thats true. But since crit is pure luck does it REALLY make a difference? Like if ur unlucky u might never crit even with that glyph. And with lots of luck you might crit every frostbolt without the glyph. Does that extra chance SERIOUSLY make you do more deeps? :O

Yeah thats true. But since crit is pure luck does it REALLY make a difference? Like if ur unlucky u might never crit even with that glyph. And with lots of luck you might crit every frostbolt without the glyph. Does that extra chance SERIOUSLY make you do more deeps? :O

Yes, because 5% is 5% and means it requires LESS luck.
The closer you get to 100%, the less lucky you need to be.
You don't want to sit at 0.1% crit and then just say "I'll still crit, it's just luck :B" and then expect to do the same DPS, do you? :V

I'm having a blast as Frost in heroics and I hope to raid soon. I do about 8-9k dps in heroics, is that acceptable?
I've been Frost PvE in WoTLK as well (not really as a serious raider though) so I really notice the improvements for Frost PvE.

A few points I'd like to discuss:

Mirror Image: only useful to pop at the start of a (boss) fight when tank needs to build aggro in first seconds, agreed?

Deep Freeze: the damage works on quite a lot of non-boss elites as well, this is great!
On mobs that can be stunned: Should one continue normal rotation or use Deep Freeze as stun and spam Ice Lance 2 or 3 times? (during Icy Veins u can get 3 at least).
In general: Deep Freeze sometimes doesn't seem to do damage, is this bugged or working as intended? Like when it only says 'Immune' but there's no damage.

Mana can be an issue. I don't think I'll be using mana shield for a while. U need to always have mana gems available and in longer fights u gotta use Evocation sometimes.

I'm having a blast as Frost in heroics and I hope to raid soon. I do about 8-9k dps in heroics, is that acceptable?
I've been Frost PvE in WoTLK as well (not really as a serious raider though) so I really notice the improvements for Frost PvE.

A few points I'd like to discuss:

Mirror Image: only useful to pop at the start of a (boss) fight when tank needs to build aggro in first seconds, agreed?

Deep Freeze: the damage works on quite a lot of non-boss elites as well, this is great!
On mobs that can be stunned: Should one continue normal rotation or use Deep Freeze as stun and spam Ice Lance 2 or 3 times? (during Icy Veins u can get 3 at least).
In general: Deep Freeze sometimes doesn't seem to do damage, is this bugged or working as intended? Like when it only says 'Immune' but there's no damage.

Mana can be an issue. I don't think I'll be using mana shield for a while. U need to always have mana gems available and in longer fights u gotta use Evocation sometimes.

Mirror Image: It's part of the burst which is great early boss fight. The damage advantage is crazy since you can dish out about 200k dmg within 3 - 4 secs. You'll need to MI because of your threat generation. Refer to Kuni's OP to see how this is done. Utilising Cold Snap early gives you a chance to repeat the same combo later.

Deep Freeze: Yup. +Glyph = Insane.

On mobs that can be stunned: I don't use the deep freeze rotation personally. Never really tested. But from what I've done so far, I can still hit my 9k dps average on mobs. My current average ilvl is 342. instead of using freeze to blast your DF, you can use it to help your BF FFB or just 2 ILs if you aren't proccing.

Deep Freeze bug. Have heard of it, but never really got it myself.

As for mana, this is the only thing I have to dispute with you. I've never had a mana problem. Even in long fights like the first boss of H:SFK, I've never dipped low enough to use a mana gem or evocation. Frost's mana efficiency is really very good. So long as you have mage armour of course. In heroics, you don't need to hit 17% hit, so it's easier to reforge to hit soft crit cap. I run heroics with bear tank friend so all I need is 28.34% crit. Almost there. I'm assuming you are using Molten Armour - that's why your mana dips low.

Mirror Image: It's part of the burst which is great early boss fight. The damage advantage is crazy since you can dish out about 200k dmg within 3 - 4 secs. You'll need to MI because of your threat generation. Refer to Kuni's OP to see how this is done. Utilising Cold Snap early gives you a chance to repeat the same combo later.

Deep Freeze: Yup. +Glyph = Insane.

On mobs that can be stunned: I don't use the deep freeze rotation personally. Never really tested. But from what I've done so far, I can still hit my 9k dps average on mobs. My current average ilvl is 342. instead of using freeze to blast your DF, you can use it to help your BF FFB or just 2 ILs if you aren't proccing.

Deep Freeze bug. Have heard of it, but never really got it myself.

As for mana, this is the only thing I have to dispute with you. I've never had a mana problem. Even in long fights like the first boss of H:SFK, I've never dipped low enough to use a mana gem or evocation. Frost's mana efficiency is really very good. So long as you have mage armour of course. In heroics, you don't need to hit 17% hit, so it's easier to reforge to hit soft crit cap. I run heroics with bear tank friend so all I need is 28.34% crit. Almost there. I'm assuming you are using Molten Armour - that's why your mana dips low.

Thanks for reply. Yep I use Molten Armor + Glyph, I really missed crits. Will try Mage Armor when gear improves.
My item level is now 333 or so. I make 8-9k dps without Ignite and FFB glyph. I was using Ice Lance, Deep Freeze and Molten Armor glyphs.
I'm definitely trying the Ignite build and FFB glyph. Quick test shows it's an improvement indeed!

Should I hold onto one charge of FoF (unless it is just about to fall off) until Brain Freeze procs?
My thinking is that brain freeze does more damage and if I'm not letting it drop then I'm not actually losing any DPS by not casting it straight away.

The only problem I can see here is if I get two procs in short succession and can't spend the first fast enough to avoid wasting the second, but would having more FoF BF casts be worth that?

One question, regarding stop casting for FoF procs and Brain Freeze, do you macro those abilities with stop casting or carry on with the present FB until its fully cast?

Secound would be, are you aware of any deepfreeze macro that might be around (sorry if theres an easy option, ive had a look and cant see one)

#showtooltip
/cast Frostbolt
/cast !Deep Freeze

This doesnt seem to work, is it because I fail at macro writing, or is there another macro that does work does anyone know?

Cheers in advance.

John.

You should let your current frostbolt finish casting. A wasted GCD is a terrible thing.

I'm not amazing at macros, but if the ability to make that work exists at all, you'll have to put deep freeze first. Which of course then brings up the issue of it trying to cast when it's off cooldown but no fingers procs. I'm not entirely sure the macro will work as intended at all. I hope someone else with better knowledge of them can throw some info here.

Originally Posted by Imnick

Should I hold onto one charge of FoF (unless it is just about to fall off) until Brain Freeze procs?
My thinking is that brain freeze does more damage and if I'm not letting it drop then I'm not actually losing any DPS by not casting it straight away.

The only problem I can see here is if I get two procs in short succession and can't spend the first fast enough to avoid wasting the second, but would having more FoF BF casts be worth that?

In a perfect world you'll be getting more fingers procs than brain freeze procs, and shouldn't have to hold fingers procs for anything. In the real world, it has to do with reaction time. If you're holding one fingers proc, you've only got a buffer room of one charge instead of two. It's a lot easier to waste a charge by proccing a third charge when you're holding the first. This leads to a small DPS decrease, even with the extra frostfire bolts. Lhiv from EJ tried to simulate this, and I've tried it in actual use. It's quite hard to make sure you don't clip any charges and sometimes impossible.