I use IDY......if I may, I am assuming you liked "a better finished crust" with the bulk fermentation, how come you stopped. Can you explain to me in words what you mean by a better finished crust?Thank youJohn

John,

By a better finished crust I meant the final pie that comes out of the oven. Perhaps it was bad terminology on my part.

Why did I stop? I thought I'd try it the other way to see if it produces similar or even better results. but so far I'm not a 100% convinced.

Hope that explains it.

Logged

Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new." - Albert Einstein

John, you have done a valuable service to us all. This was a really interesting experiment. I know I am going to pay more attention to when I reball the dough. Dough is sort of mystical in its properties, isn't it?

Thanks for conducting your interesting experiments! Do you think you would always use the bulk fermentation method with 12 hrs. bulk, balling, and 12 hrs. refrigeration? Wouldnít that be hard to control for someone that might want to use that method in a business? I wanted to also ask you if you liked these results better than some of the Reinhart pizza you made in terms of taste of the crust, texture, and bottom crispness? All your pictures are great, and the pizzas do look very good, but I would like to have your opinion on which pizzas you might prefer, between the Lehmann and Reinhart.

Norma

NormaAs to your first question...In this 4 day experiment, one pizza was monumental...the one which was bulk fermented 12 hours, balled and refrigerated another 12 hours. This could have been a fluke..I don't know..so I guess I will try to duplicate it....and if I can..that should lead to another series of experiments using the 12 hour bulk ferment and 12 hour refrigeration as the base...varying times and such to see what this does to dough. I was very excited to taste that particular pizza....but I was even more excited about this experiment when I found that up to a particular point in time, every single bulk fermented dough was better than the balled from the mixer dough. By the way, I still have some bulk fermented dough in the walk in, and today, I took a piece, balled it up, and 3 hours later we had an excellent pizza for lunch.Your question about using the 12 hour bulk, 12 hour fridge method in business gets right to the heart of what makes it so hard to run a restaurant. That is why more experimentation will be done. But, for the pizza maker at home...that's another story...for he or she knows exactly when dinner time is.

I was really excited to see that you asked about the Reinhart doughs. During dinner tonight I realized something kind of exciting to me. As you know I have been experimenting like crazy with Reinhart doughs over a year now...they have definitely been my favorites up till now...and you will recall you and I have had some conversations about the reballing of these doughs and of the necessity of the thing. I have even made the comment that without the reball, the doughs are unremarkable. Norma, take a look at one of Reinhart's recipes here:http://www.fornobravo.com/pizzaquest/instructionals/59-written-recipes/169-ny-style-pizza-dough.html

Did you see it....he bulk ferments his dough. Most of his recipes are the same. All this time, even though I didn't bulk ferment the dough, I found through experimenting, they had to be reballed...and then I worked at the different timings of the reball to get the best crust. so, all this time I fell in love with a dough, thinking the magic was in the recipe, or the magic was in the mixing method.....but, I'm certain now that I fell in love with the dough because of the marvelous texture which is achieved by timing the reballs correctly. In fact, when I thought I was done experimenting, I played around with a recipe much lower in hydration, but using the methods learned from the Reinhart experiments....and the texture was still there. And from there it was making doughs with poolish, which adds great flavor, but it's the Reinhart method which delivers the texture i love. Anyway, my favorites are now the ones I make with poolish...and now I know that I don't have to use a high hydration rate to achieve what I want...and this makes pizza making even simpler. Best wishesjohn

John, you have done a valuable service to us all. This was a really interesting experiment. I know I am going to pay more attention to when I reball the dough. Dough is sort of mystical in its properties, isn't it?

NormaAs to your first question...In this 4 day experiment, one pizza was monumental...the one which was bulk fermented 12 hours, balled and refrigerated another 12 hours. This could have been a fluke..I don't know..so I guess I will try to duplicate it....and if I can..that should lead to another series of experiments using the 12 hour bulk ferment and 12 hour refrigeration as the base...varying times and such to see what this does to dough. I was very excited to taste that particular pizza....but I was even more excited about this experiment when I found that up to a particular point in time, every single bulk fermented dough was better than the balled from the mixer dough. By the way, I still have some bulk fermented dough in the walk in, and today, I took a piece, balled it up, and 3 hours later we had an excellent pizza for lunch.Your question about using the 12 hour bulk, 12 hour fridge method in business gets right to the heart of what makes it so hard to run a restaurant. That is why more experimentation will be done. But, for the pizza maker at home...that's another story...for he or she knows exactly when dinner time is.

I was really excited to see that you asked about the Reinhart doughs. During dinner tonight I realized something kind of exciting to me. As you know I have been experimenting like crazy with Reinhart doughs over a year now...they have definitely been my favorites up till now...and you will recall you and I have had some conversations about the reballing of these doughs and of the necessity of the thing. I have even made the comment that without the reball, the doughs are unremarkable. Norma, take a look at one of Reinhart's recipes here:http://www.fornobravo.com/pizzaquest/instructionals/59-written-recipes/169-ny-style-pizza-dough.html

Did you see it....he bulk ferments his dough. Most of his recipes are the same. All this time, even though I didn't bulk ferment the dough, I found through experimenting, they had to be reballed...and then I worked at the different timings of the reball to get the best crust. so, all this time I fell in love with a dough, thinking the magic was in the recipe, or the magic was in the mixing method.....but, I'm certain now that I fell in love with the dough because of the marvelous texture which is achieved by timing the reballs correctly. In fact, when I thought I was done experimenting, I played around with a recipe much lower in hydration, but using the methods learned from the Reinhart experiments....and the texture was still there. And from there it was making doughs with poolish, which adds great flavor, but it's the Reinhart method which delivers the texture i love. Anyway, my favorites are now the ones I make with poolish...and now I know that I don't have to use a high hydration rate to achieve what I want...and this makes pizza making even simpler. Best wishesjohn

John,

I really donít think the one pizza that the dough ball was bulk fermented 12 hrs, balled and refrigerated another 12 hrs. was a fluke in that it was monumental. You are doing some very controlled experiments and you have been documenting all of what you have done.

I know you have been experimenting with the Reinhart doughs like crazy in the past year and I have enjoyed those results too! I didnít realize that Reinhart had been bulk fermenting his doughs before, until you pointed that out. I know when I experimented with different Reinhart dough I usually only made one dough ball at a time and you usually also balled the dough right out of the mixer. I think that is a big revelation in itself that you discovered that Reinhart really was bulk fermenting his doughs. I also found though my experiments that there usually was a reball needed, and the timing of the reball was crucial, as you also found out, but I never did a bulk ferment.

Great to hear that it was the Reinhart method that gave the great texture. I had always wondered about that.

I know in a professional environment it is always hard to replicate the same results because you have dough balls fermenting over many more hours than a pizza maker at home.

I need to ask you sometime about making a cracker-style dough, but will ask that in another thread. I still havenít made any real successful one to this date. For me that are one of the hardest doughs to make right.

Thanks for doing all the experiments! I always enjoy seeing your results.

With respect to your question about scaling the process that John described to a commercial level, you might recall that when I was playing around with the long-fermented dough that went out more than a couple of weeks, I wondered whether it would be possible to scale the process I used to a commercial level where, for ten-day old doughs, one could make dough every ten days. See, for example, my comments at the end of Reply 23 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg35370.html#msg35370. What I did not consider is that assuming that one had an average daily volume of 150 dough balls, that would mean that the pizza operator would have to make 1500 dough balls every 10 days. Since my method was based on keeping the dough balls as cold as possible, there would not have been a way to get the 1500 dough balls made fast enough to keep them all on the cold side, not to mention the large cooler capacity and efficiency that would be required to cool down 1500 dough balls. Maybe someone with a commissary with sophisticated temperature and humidity control could figure out a way to do this, such as a Papa John's or some other large operator, but it is unlikely that an individual pizza operator would be able to do it. In this vein, you might recall what you went through when you tried to make just five dough balls that would last eight days (Reply 241 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg85495.html#msg85495, and succeeding posts). Imagine if you had to make hundreds of such dough balls.

I raise the above only to point out that not all home regimens can be scaled to a commercial one. In fact, I would say that many, if not most, of the recipes on this forum, particularly those that require intervention at one or more points during the preparation and management of the dough, are readily scalable to a commercial level where hundreds of dough balls are needed (although A16 did something along these lines some years ago). In my case, I was using a straight dough method without any intervention, and even then it is highly unlikely that it would be scalable to hundreds of dough balls. But, as John notes, this is not an issue in a home setting where people can control their processes for small volumes of dough balls. Nor was John making a claim that what he has been doing is or should be scalable to a commercial level. The point I was trying to make is that there are practical advantages in a commercial setting to do the dough division up front rather than later.

With respect to your question about scaling the process that John described to a commercial level, you might recall that when I was playing around with the long-fermented dough that went out more than a couple of weeks, I wondered whether it would be possible to scale the process I used to a commercial level where, for ten-day old doughs, one could make dough every ten days. See, for example, my comments at the end of Reply 23 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg35370.html#msg35370. What I did not consider is that assuming that one had an average daily volume of 150 dough balls, that would mean that the pizza operator would have to make 1500 dough balls every 10 days. Since my method was based on keeping the dough balls as cold as possible, there would not have been a way to get the 1500 dough balls made fast enough to keep them all on the cold side, not to mention the large cooler capacity and efficiency that would be required to cool down 1500 dough balls. Maybe someone with a commissary with sophisticated temperature and humidity control could figure out a way to do this, such as a Papa John's or some other large operator, but it is unlikely that an individual pizza operator would be able to do it. In this vein, you might recall what you went through when you tried to make just five dough balls that would last eight days (Reply 241 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg85495.html#msg85495, and succeeding posts). Imagine if you had to make hundreds of such dough balls.

I raise the above only to point out that not all home regimens can be scaled to a commercial one. In fact, I would say that many, if not most, of the recipes on this forum, particularly those that require intervention at one or more points during the preparation and management of the dough, are readily scalable to a commercial level where hundreds of dough balls are needed (although A16 did something along these lines some years ago). In my case, I was using a straight dough method without any intervention, and even then it is highly unlikely that it would be scalable to hundreds of dough balls. But, as John notes, this is not an issue in a home setting where people can control their processes for small volumes of dough balls. Nor was John making a claim that what he has been doing is or should be scalable to a commercial level. The point I was trying to make is that there are practical advantages in a commercial setting to do the dough division up front rather than later.

Peter

Peter,

I forgot about that discussion on the Trail dough thread. You did post about bulk fermenting like Peter Reinhart uses sometimes. I try too many experiments and never really follow one though until the end. If I would have followed your advice, many I would have found out more in that thread.

You have done so many experiments that I also forgot about you doing the experiments on the 10 day dough balls. I did remember in that thread that you did many experiments, but canít remember them all. I do remember the experiment I tried on 5 dough balls that would last 8 days.lol I think I am a little more experienced now to know what to watch for and can control my doughs better. Do you think it would be possible for me to make a better pizza now using one of those methods, or bulk fermenting now? As you already know I am always trying to make a better dough and pizza for market.

I can understand the point you are trying to make is it is practical to do the division up front. I am not practical though.

I know you have been experimenting with the Reinhart doughs like crazy in the past year and I have enjoyed those results too! I didnít realize that Reinhart had been bulk fermenting his doughs before, until you pointed that out. I know when I experimented with different Reinhart dough I usually only made one dough ball at a time and you usually also balled the dough right out of the mixer. I think that is a big revelation in itself that you discovered that Reinhart really was bulk fermenting his doughs. I also found though my experiments that there usually was a reball needed, and the timing of the reball was crucial, as you also found out, but I never did a bulk ferment.

Norma

Norma, the point I was trying to make regarding this matter (in fact, I started a thread on this alone), was that scaling and balling high hydrated dough right out of the mixer was almost the same as bulk fermentation because so little action is used to actually try and tighten the ball...most of the time, I just try to get the weights right, and with oiled hands try to get one mass of dough in a container. If my assumption is correct, than the doughs I was getting had to be pretty close to the same had I really been bulk fermenting the dough. And also if my assumption is at least close to true, the experiments done with the Reinhart dough were mini experiments with bulk fermented doughs. So, what I call a reball in my case, was simply the balling process when using bulk fermention and this was called for per Reinhart.

Norma, the point I was trying to make regarding this matter (in fact, I started a thread on this alone), was that scaling and balling high hydrated dough right out of the mixer was almost the same as bulk fermentation because so little action is used to actually try and tighten the ball...most of the time, I just try to get the weights right, and with oiled hands try to get one mass of dough in a container. If my assumption is correct, than the doughs I was getting had to be pretty close to the same had I really been bulk fermenting the dough. And also if my assumption is at least close to true, the experiments done with the Reinhart dough were mini experiments with bulk fermented doughs. So, what I call a reball in my case, was simply the balling process when using bulk fermention and this was called for per Reinhart.

John

John,

Thanks for explaining the point you were trying to make was the scaling and balling of high hydration dough right out of the mixer was almost the same as bulk fermentation. I didnít understand that before.

Do you think it would be possible for me to make a better pizza now using one of those methods, or bulk fermenting now? As you already know I am always trying to make a better dough and pizza for market.

Norma,

I believe that you are better prepared today to repeat your prior test and thought to say so in my last post but I did not want to steer this thread in a new direction. However, I do think that you might be able to repeat what John has done with, say, five dough balls, although I don't recall seeing the sizes of pizzas that John has been making (I know you like thicker crusts for your NY style). But the dough formulation that John posted is really a version of the Lehmann NY style dough formulation, using a high-gluten flour, some sugar (which Tom recommends for long fermentations), and with an "effective" hydration of 61% when the 3% oil is taken into account.

In your case, where the dough has to be made entirely at market because of the market's rules, you might have to adjust the amount of yeast and add it late in the process if you are to make the dough one day at market and use it about a week later, also at market. In effect, you would be adapting the dough formulation that John posted to a longer window of usability by using some of the methods I described in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.0.html. There is also no reason that I can see why you can't take the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation that was adapted for use with a preferment and adapt it to take advantage of John's methods, especially the reballing. What I don't know is when you would be able to do the reballing after the bulk ferment. You would have to do that at some time where you are permitted to have access to the market. I also don't know if the end results would be better than what you are now getting at market with the preferment Lehmann NY style dough formulation. But, if a test along the lines discussed by John is doable, a few dough balls should give you the answer.

I believe that you are better prepared today to repeat your prior test and thought to say so in my last post but I did not want to steer this thread in a new direction. However, I do think that you might be able to repeat what John has done with, say, five dough balls, although I don't recall seeing the sizes of pizzas that John has been making (I know you like thicker crusts for your NY style). But the dough formulation that John posted is really a version of the Lehmann NY style dough formulation, using a high-gluten flour, some sugar (which Tom recommends for long fermentations), and with an "effective" hydration of 61% when the 3% oil is taken into account.

In your case, where the dough has to be made entirely at market because of the market's rules, you might have to adjust the amount of yeast and add it late in the process if you are to make the dough one day at market and use it about a week later, also at market. In effect, you would be adapting the dough formulation that John posted to a longer window of usability by using some of the methods I described in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.0.html. There is also no reason that I can see why you can't take the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation that was adapted for use with a preferment and adapt it to take advantage of John's methods, especially the reballing. What I don't know is when you would be able to do the reballing after the bulk ferment. You would have to do that at some time where you are permitted to have access to the market. I also don't know if the end results would be better than what you are now getting at market with the preferment Lehmann NY style dough formulation. But, if a test along the lines discussed by John is doable, a few dough balls should give you the answer.

Peter

Peter,

I donít want to take this thread off-topic either, but since John and you have posted about bulk fermenting or a longer cold ferment with or without reballing, (maybe giving me better results at market) after Christmas I will try an experiment out with 5 dough balls. I think when I did the experiment back at Rely 241 on your thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg85495.html#msg85495 I donít think I really understood enough about dough to be able to know how to change the results I was getting. Looking back to what I know now, I probably would have reballed those dough balls, added less yeast, or used a lower water temperature.

I will reread over your thread again at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.0.html because I have forgotten a lot of what is in that thread. I am not sure if I will go for a 8 day cold fermented dough again, but maybe a 5 day cold fermented dough with or without a reball on a Monday. I could also try a bulk ferment like John is experimenting with and reball the dough on a Monday, but wouldnít know when to make the dough to bulk ferment. When I am ready I will start a new thread so I wonít mess-up Johnís thread.

I understood that Mike....can you explain to me what makes it a better finished crust..can you give me a description of what it feels like, looks like etc.Thank youJohn

John,

A crust, especially the rim, that has an almost thin, egg-shell like exterior, a fluffy, airy and light interior and with the center crust of having a slightly crunchy bottom with a moist and light layer before it all melts into one goodness the minute you take a bite.

Logged

Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new." - Albert Einstein

I am not sure if I will go for a 8 day cold fermented dough again, but maybe a 5 day cold fermented dough with or without a reball on a Monday. I could also try a bulk ferment like John is experimenting with and reball the dough on a Monday, but wouldnít know when to make the dough to bulk ferment. When I am ready I will start a new thread so I wonít mess-up Johnís thread.

Norma,

My recollection is that you are permitted access to the market on Monday through Friday, but not on Saturday or Sunday. If that is correct, you could start the bulk dough on Thursday, ferment it until Monday (4 days) and do the division and scaling on Monday also. Then use the dough balls on Tuesday (5 days).

My recollection is that you are permitted access to the market on Monday through Friday, but not on Saturday or Sunday. If that is correct, you could start the bulk dough on Thursday, ferment it until Monday (4 days) and do the division and scaling on Monday also. Then use the dough balls on Tuesday (5 days).

Peter

Peter,

You are correct that I am only permitted access to market Monday through Friday, and not Saturday or Sunday.

I will mix a regular Lehmann dough (5 dough balls) on a Thursday to be bulk fermented until Monday, then do the division and scaling on Monday, then cold ferment until Tuesday. I want to see if I can get anywhere near the results that John is getting.

Do you have idea of how much yeast I should use when doing a bulk fermentation of 4 days, or should I just try to figure out what might work? Do you think the amount of IDY (0.50) John is using would be too much? I see John had a final dough temperature of 70 degrees F.

Do you have idea of how much yeast I should use when doing a bulk fermentation of 4 days, or should I just try to figure out what might work? Do you think the amount of IDY (0.50) John is using would be too much? I see John had a final dough temperature of 70 degrees F.

Norma,

Is your refrigerator case at market where you hold the dough balls more like a home refrigerator than a commercial cooler in terms of its operating temperature range?

Is your refrigerator case at market where you hold the dough balls more like a home refrigerator than a commercial cooler in terms of its operating temperature range?

Peter

Peter,

The deli case where I would be bulk fermenting the dough is now at 38 degrees F. Since it is colder in our area and at market during the week when there isnít market, the temperature stays constant because no one is opening and shutting the deli doors. At market most of the time lately is it about 52 degrees now where I would be mixing the dough.

I was thinking of a combination of about 0.25% IDY and a finished dough temperature of 75-80 degrees F. However, since I do not do bulk cold fermentations of dough, maybe John has an opinion as to the amount of IDY that you might use, given that he has made doughs with several days of cold fermentation in bulk. At the values mentioned above, I don't see a risk of overfermentation. And any weakness in the dough structure can be overcome during the reballing.

I was thinking of a combination of about 0.25% IDY and a finished dough temperature of 75-80 degrees F. However, since I do not do bulk cold fermentations of dough, maybe John has an opinion as to the amount of IDY that you might use, given that he has made doughs with several days of cold fermentation in bulk. At the values mentioned above, I don't see a risk of overfermentation. And any weakness in the dough structure can be overcome during the reballing.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for your suggestion to use 0.25% IDY and to get a finished dough temperature of 75-80 degrees F. I will wait and see what Johnís opinion or suggestions are. For the first experiment I will use the ADM Gigantic high-gluten flour like John did.

I understand that any weakness in the dough structure can be overcome during the reballing.

Peter and NormaI don't have an opinion about what percentage of yeast to use... I will tell you what I did, and also tell you there were no problems. I used .5% yeast, and i mixed up 520 ounces of dough. The whole dough piece was bulk fermented in a 5 gallon tub. I had a finished dough temp of 70 degrees, because I had to start somewhere, and knew this was a pretty big piece of dough. Your batch will be much smaller, and I just don't see you having a problem. I also believe Peter is correct in saying, that even if you do overferment the balling will take care of that. As for my experiment, I still had a piece of dough in the walkin today. (5 days old)....I took a 36 ounce piece, buttered up a 16 inch deep dish pan, let the dough warm up and rise in the pan, and we had an excellent snack after our dinner rush tonite.

A crust, especially the rim, that has an almost thin, egg-shell like exterior, a fluffy, airy and light interior and with the center crust of having a slightly crunchy bottom with a moist and light layer before it all melts into one goodness the minute you take a bite.

I think you nailed that Mike....would I be correct in saying you haven't achieved that texture doing it your new way??