D-Rock wrote on Oct 3, 2012, 09:04:Don't twist my words. The gay community can say anything they want and I never said they had to be "allowed" to do so. I'm of the opinion that it's ineffective at this point and will likely work against them.

I wasn't twisting your words, you stated that pointing out that they are different is going to call negative attention to themselves. Which is just another way of stating that people shouldn't call attention to the fact that they are different.

We've formed our stance on the matter and the percentage of people whose mind could be changed for the better by your constant attention drawing activities is miniscule. Stop drawing the line in the sand and start putting your efforts towards making the changes that truly affect you (don't ask don't tell, same sex marriage, etc.). Get involved in politics beyond just shouting. Call your congressman / woman. And at the very least - VOTE. Can you believe Prop 8 was allowed in the first place? In a state that's primarily democratic?!? I find that hard to believe. Get out and vote and do something productive with your time...

You're acting as if these ideas are contradictory. As if you can't both be politically active as well as standing up for yourself.

And, frankly, the fact you keep talking about voting (and ignored the huge section on non-rights issues) just proves you don't get it. You can't legislate opinions. If you want to be treated equally, you have to stand up and demand equality, because if you just sit there passive, people are going to walk over you.

Things like gay pride parades and this GaymerCon are a way for LGBT people to stand up and say "we're here, we're not going anywhere, and it's about time you got used to that fact". And considering the resistance to that fact that they get (especially in the US), it's a message that needs to be continually hammered home.

RollinThundr wrote on Oct 3, 2012, 09:16:Yep because one very wrong religious extremist speaks for every Christian. Like I said, attacks on religion are ok, unless it's Islam, but if you don't jump up and down for gay rights, you're an evil person.

No one asked you to jump up and down for gay rights, you're the one making it seem like you're being put out by someone else hosting a convention. Gaming is a hobby filled with homophobic phrases and slang due to immaturity and prematurely developed social skills, it's just a convention to promote the idea of an industry free from that. There are religious themed review sites, dating sites and even gaming conventions so the double standard here is staggering.

I find it amusing that religions are somehow in need of defense from anything but gay people are not. Most are not a minority representation and organized religions in general are voracious attackers of other minorities, most notably gay people.

Yep because one very wrong religious extremist speaks for every Christian. Like I said, attacks on religion are ok, unless it's Islam, but if you don't jump up and down for gay rights, you're an evil person.

Bhruic wrote on Oct 2, 2012, 18:26:Ah, yes, the old "you're allowed to be different as long as you don't tell anyone that you are different" line.

Don't twist my words. The gay community can say anything they want and I never said they had to be "allowed" to do so. I'm of the opinion that it's ineffective at this point and will likely work against them.

We get it. You have a different preference than the rest of the country. We've heard it time and time again. We've formed our stance on the matter and the percentage of people whose mind could be changed for the better by your constant attention drawing activities is miniscule. Stop drawing the line in the sand and start putting your efforts towards making the changes that truly affect you (don't ask don't tell, same sex marriage, etc.). Get involved in politics beyond just shouting. Call your congressman / woman. And at the very least - VOTE. Can you believe Prop 8 was allowed in the first place? In a state that's primarily democratic?!? I find that hard to believe. Get out and vote and do something productive with your time...

D-Rock wrote on Oct 2, 2012, 11:38:Nope, I'm just responding to your post.

Yes, you were responding to my post by attempting to suggest that systemic inequality is functionally identical to sporatic inequality. Which is a ludicrous position.

Don't generalize for any demographic, regardless of status.

Um, sorry, but generalizations are useful - as long as they are accurate. If most of the people feel or act in a specific way, then it doesn't matter if everyone does.

As a white middle class male I feel that what you said is disrespectful. How can anyone meet in the middle if they don't show respect for an opposing party (or an opposing viewpoint, like on a message board)?

Ok, and I don't care? I'm not trying to meet in the middle. The idea that this is some sort of compromise situation (again, what you were trying to suggest last time) is stupid. As someone else has already said, this isn't a case where both sides have somewhat valid arguments. One side is right, and one side is wrong. There is no middle to meet at.

Those are your words, not mine. I put 'make' in quotes because I'm referring to the attitude that you can 'make' people have a specific belief or opinion on something. Forceful and loud social agendas rarely do anything to change someones mind. People need to put time into standing up for their rights when they've been infringed upon. That is much more productive.

Oh, please, those are exactly your words. It doesn't matter if you put make in quotes or not, it doesn't change the meaning of your sentence. Forceful and loud social agendas aren't designed to change people's minds. They are designed to change society's attitudes. Racism was prevalent when it was acceptable. When people stood up, and said (loudly and forcefully, I assure you) that it wasn't, society changed. Does that mean racism disappeared? Of course not. It does mean, however, that racism is now socially unacceptable. The same goal can be accomplished for LGBTs.

Someone, please educate me on the benefits to same sex marriage. The only thing I could come up with is tax benefits. Is that really all it's about, or is there more to it than I'm aware of?

Someone's already mentioned the hospital situation, which is the tip of the iceberg there. Spouses have lots of legal rights for their partners that you don't otherwise have. Not being allowed to get married denies you all of those rights.

What other rights are there that gays do not have?

It's not simply about rights. It's about attitudes. There are almost no situations where you would get fired for admitting to being a heterosexual. That is not true for homosexuals. There are almost no situations where you would get kicked out of your apartment for being heterosexual. That is not true for homosexuals. There are almost no situations where your family would throw you out on the street and disown you if you told them you were a heterosexual. That is not true for homosexuals. There are almost no situations where you'd get beaten up and possibly killed by people because they knew you were a heterosexual. That is not true for homosexuals.

And the list could go on.

I just hope that people don't think that something like this will influence a political or social agenda for the better, or they will be disappointed. If you keep advertising that you are different and deserve recognition, you too have drawn the very line that you are trying to erase.

Ah, yes, the old "you're allowed to be different as long as you don't tell anyone that you are different" line.

RollinThundr wrote on Oct 2, 2012, 15:30:This is what I mean by twisting. Name one instance where I said I'm against gay marriage? I'll give you a hint, I never said that. I was nothing more than debating the need for this particular con since I don't remember reading any outbreak of anti gay slurs at gaming conventions in the past. Not from E3, or PAX, or the Tokyo game show etc etc. Hell I live in Mass, gay marriage is legal here and it doesn't bother me one way or another because 1. it's none of my business what two people do in the privacy of their homes. 2. What does it bother me if same sex couples want to file joint taxes (the most likely real reason the gay community is pushing so hard to redefine marriage)

But hey apparently there's a need to shed light that there are indeed gay gamers. YAY! Lets throw them a ticker tape parade too.

Stop being a hypocrite, there are religious gaming conventions and we don't hear you crying about those.

Wasn't aware, though I find the thought of that pretty stupid as well.

Beamer wrote on Oct 2, 2012, 14:46:Christians commit plenty of violence in the name of their religion. May not be suicide bombers, but ask your local abortion doctor what the 90s were like for him.

You can say there's no reasoning with me, in response to me saying it to you, but can you give me one non-bigoted reason to complain about gay marriage? Or, in the case of this, gay gaming conferences? How many people complain about the other themed gaming conferences? I already posted a Christian one, where are the pitchforks for that.

What's worse, RollingThunder, is you keep saying "I don't mind this" or "I don't mind that," but then what are you arguing with me about? About RailWizard's right to be annoyed by this? No one is saying he doesn't have the right, nor are we saying he doesn't have the right to call homosexuality a fetish. We're saying he's an idiot for doing so and clearly has some kind of anti-gay agenda. He denies it, but for godssake he called it a fetish. Maybe being a lefty is also a fetish?

This is what I mean by twisting. Name one instance where I said I'm against gay marriage? I'll give you a hint, I never said that. I was nothing more than debating the need for this particular con since I don't remember reading any outbreak of anti gay slurs at gaming conventions in the past. Not from E3, or PAX, or the Tokyo game show etc etc. Hell I live in Mass, gay marriage is legal here and it doesn't bother me one way or another because 1. it's none of my business what two people do in the privacy of their homes. 2. What does it bother me if same sex couples want to file joint taxes (the most likely real reason the gay community is pushing so hard to redefine marriage)

But hey apparently there's a need to shed light that there are indeed gay gamers. YAY! Lets throw them a ticker tape parade too.

No no no. Read my third paragraph - I said that you're claiming not to be against gay marriage. But then what are you arguing? Nowhere in what I quoted did I claim you're against gay marriage. However, given how you keep arguing with people that are for it and people that think this conference is no big deal, you're definitely arguing something, right?

And this gets back to my comment that you always seem to end up on the same side as RailWizard and Matshock (or whatever his name is) when you claim to have a much more neutral point of view than they do.

They're not asking for a ticker tape parade, they're asking to have a gay friendly game conference that they're organizing and paying for. You are expected to do absolutely nothing in this transaction. But it somehow still rubs you the wrong way...

Eh I'm more so indifferent really. Just don't really grasp the point of it to begin with aside from another soap box to look for attention for a particular special interest group.

Beamer wrote on Oct 2, 2012, 14:46:Christians commit plenty of violence in the name of their religion. May not be suicide bombers, but ask your local abortion doctor what the 90s were like for him.

You can say there's no reasoning with me, in response to me saying it to you, but can you give me one non-bigoted reason to complain about gay marriage? Or, in the case of this, gay gaming conferences? How many people complain about the other themed gaming conferences? I already posted a Christian one, where are the pitchforks for that.

What's worse, RollingThunder, is you keep saying "I don't mind this" or "I don't mind that," but then what are you arguing with me about? About RailWizard's right to be annoyed by this? No one is saying he doesn't have the right, nor are we saying he doesn't have the right to call homosexuality a fetish. We're saying he's an idiot for doing so and clearly has some kind of anti-gay agenda. He denies it, but for godssake he called it a fetish. Maybe being a lefty is also a fetish?

This is what I mean by twisting. Name one instance where I said I'm against gay marriage? I'll give you a hint, I never said that. I was nothing more than debating the need for this particular con since I don't remember reading any outbreak of anti gay slurs at gaming conventions in the past. Not from E3, or PAX, or the Tokyo game show etc etc. Hell I live in Mass, gay marriage is legal here and it doesn't bother me one way or another because 1. it's none of my business what two people do in the privacy of their homes. 2. What does it bother me if same sex couples want to file joint taxes (the most likely real reason the gay community is pushing so hard to redefine marriage)

But hey apparently there's a need to shed light that there are indeed gay gamers. YAY! Lets throw them a ticker tape parade too.

No no no. Read my third paragraph - I said that you're claiming not to be against gay marriage. But then what are you arguing? Nowhere in what I quoted did I claim you're against gay marriage. However, given how you keep arguing with people that are for it and people that think this conference is no big deal, you're definitely arguing something, right?

And this gets back to my comment that you always seem to end up on the same side as RailWizard and Matshock (or whatever his name is) when you claim to have a much more neutral point of view than they do.

They're not asking for a ticker tape parade, they're asking to have a gay friendly game conference that they're organizing and paying for. You are expected to do absolutely nothing in this transaction. But it somehow still rubs you the wrong way...

Beamer wrote on Oct 2, 2012, 14:03:or you think that both sides have some credible opinions (which isn't ok. This isn't something like abortion, in which both sides make statements that have validity, even if only in a vacuum. This is something where one side's opinion solely comes down to not liking the other.)

I disagree. Both sides have credible opinions. I'll agree that the 'against' side has some pretty weak arguments, but they are still entitled to those opinions, which should be heard and do go beyond "don't like".

-Religious -- Those against it for religious reasons don't necessarily not like it -- they just choose to support a set of values that doesn't allow for it and they feel it infringes upon their beliefs. I know someone like this and it definitely sounds contradictory, but who am I to judge her or her opinion on it? She has her US citizenship and she's entitled to it.

-Adoption -- It goes beyond the basic concept, but the question does come up -- some say children are healthier when raised by biological parents, or have a male / female role model. There doesn't appear to be enough data that points in either direction to say for sure what's healthy or not, but it does certainly seem to lean in the pro-gay direction.

Again, both weak arguments, but valid ones (that admittedly, I probably haven't presented well, but I don't really agree with them anyway).

It's obvious you've already made your decision on where you stand (DUH!) and if I had to decide I'm sure it's pretty clear where I would stand. I still think anyone is entitled to their opinion and I can't fault them for that.

You're right that your friend is entitled to her opinion. However, I'm entitled to my opinion that your friend is an idiot. Don't get too upset over that, I have some idiot friends and family members, too. As you said, they feel that gay marriage infringes on their religion, but that's an idiotic opinion as no one is forcing their church to conduct these marriages. They feel that gay marriage cheapens the concept of marriage but that's idiotic because their church allows for divorce and conducts 2nd and 3rd marriages. They feel that marriage should be about conception but that's idiotic because their church marries the infertile, the elderly, and people that use birth control.

RollinThundr wrote on Oct 2, 2012, 15:30:This is what I mean by twisting. Name one instance where I said I'm against gay marriage? I'll give you a hint, I never said that. I was nothing more than debating the need for this particular con since I don't remember reading any outbreak of anti gay slurs at gaming conventions in the past. Not from E3, or PAX, or the Tokyo game show etc etc. Hell I live in Mass, gay marriage is legal here and it doesn't bother me one way or another because 1. it's none of my business what two people do in the privacy of their homes. 2. What does it bother me if same sex couples want to file joint taxes (the most likely real reason the gay community is pushing so hard to redefine marriage)

But hey apparently there's a need to shed light that there are indeed gay gamers. YAY! Lets throw them a ticker tape parade too.

Stop being a hypocrite, there are religious gaming conventions and we don't hear you crying about those.

Beamer wrote on Oct 2, 2012, 14:46:Christians commit plenty of violence in the name of their religion. May not be suicide bombers, but ask your local abortion doctor what the 90s were like for him.

You can say there's no reasoning with me, in response to me saying it to you, but can you give me one non-bigoted reason to complain about gay marriage? Or, in the case of this, gay gaming conferences? How many people complain about the other themed gaming conferences? I already posted a Christian one, where are the pitchforks for that.

What's worse, RollingThunder, is you keep saying "I don't mind this" or "I don't mind that," but then what are you arguing with me about? About RailWizard's right to be annoyed by this? No one is saying he doesn't have the right, nor are we saying he doesn't have the right to call homosexuality a fetish. We're saying he's an idiot for doing so and clearly has some kind of anti-gay agenda. He denies it, but for godssake he called it a fetish. Maybe being a lefty is also a fetish?

This is what I mean by twisting. Name one instance where I said I'm against gay marriage? I'll give you a hint, I never said that. I was nothing more than debating the need for this particular con since I don't remember reading any outbreak of anti gay slurs at gaming conventions in the past. Not from E3, or PAX, or the Tokyo game show etc etc. Hell I live in Mass, gay marriage is legal here and it doesn't bother me one way or another because 1. it's none of my business what two people do in the privacy of their homes. 2. What does it bother me if same sex couples want to file joint taxes (the most likely real reason the gay community is pushing so hard to redefine marriage)

But hey apparently there's a need to shed light that there are indeed gay gamers. YAY! Lets throw them a ticker tape parade too.

yuastnav wrote on Oct 2, 2012, 13:55:Generally speaking having traditions is a bad idea because it implants a certain way of thinking and hampers the progression of society.

I disagree strongly. Anyone can create their own family tradition and it shows respect for previous generations. Traditions generally mean something to someone or a group of people. There is a time to let go of old traditions that mean nothing after time.

Thanks giving, Christmas, mothers day, bucks night are all traditions. Are these bad? No way.

Are you just saying traditions are bad because of religious traditions?[...]

Maybe I am just a bit disillusioned because people hold up traditions very high. What really gets to me is when people use this as an actual argument."Why are we doing this?""Because it's a tradition, of course!"NO! This is so irrational and wrong in my opinion. :/I just don't like this kind of reasoning, so I'm just a bit jaded in that respect. You can have traditions, of course, but there should be at least a reason for why you have this tradition other than that it's a tradition.I think what I wrote is rather extreme so I take it back a little bit, but I'll stay by saying that there better be a good reason for a tradition other than that it's a tradition.

[edit]Sadly I cannot rationalise all of my reasoning because I actually like christmas but cannot think of any non-religious reason why it should exist.A holiday for people to get together, have a good time, give each other presents and eat heartily is not a very good reason because everyone should be free to do so on any day they choose so I'm kinda stumped on this one. :/

netnerd85 wrote on Oct 2, 2012, 14:12:

yuastnav wrote on Oct 2, 2012, 13:55:[...]As that I am very opposed to the idea of marriage but it doesn't look like it's going away.

Why? What's wrong with marriage? What happened for you not to believe in the idea?

I just find it really strange that people need religious or governmental assurance that they live together. If people want to live together - that's fine! They can even have a ceremony and what not!But why do people need this assurance?For example there are people who may only want to live together for a certain amount of time but when they start their relationship they don't know that yet and marrying just adds another unnecessary layer i.e. when they finally find out they don't like each other they need a divorce and this just creates more problems.Or polygamous relationships. For some reason this is looked down upon in many societies (I myself don't like polygamy but that is just my preference, there is nothing wrong if other people are okay with it) and this also is not encompassed by marriage. And it would also be difficult to do so.People should be alive to live how they like and with whomever they like, so as long as all parties are comfortable with this arrangement, without having the need of such an, as I see it, artifical reassurance like marriage.

Beamer wrote on Oct 2, 2012, 14:03:or you think that both sides have some credible opinions (which isn't ok. This isn't something like abortion, in which both sides make statements that have validity, even if only in a vacuum. This is something where one side's opinion solely comes down to not liking the other.)

I disagree. Both sides have credible opinions. I'll agree that the 'against' side has some pretty weak arguments, but they are still entitled to those opinions, which should be heard and do go beyond "don't like".

-Religious -- Those against it for religious reasons don't necessarily not like it -- they just choose to support a set of values that doesn't allow for it and they feel it infringes upon their beliefs. I know someone like this and it definitely sounds contradictory, but who am I to judge her or her opinion on it? She has her US citizenship and she's entitled to it.

-Adoption -- It goes beyond the basic concept, but the question does come up -- some say children are healthier when raised by biological parents, or have a male / female role model. There doesn't appear to be enough data that points in either direction to say for sure what's healthy or not, but it does certainly seem to lean in the pro-gay direction.

Again, both weak arguments, but valid ones (that admittedly, I probably haven't presented well, but I don't really agree with them anyway).

It's obvious you've already made your decision on where you stand (DUH!) and if I had to decide I'm sure it's pretty clear where I would stand. I still think anyone is entitled to their opinion and I can't fault them for that.

Christians commit plenty of violence in the name of their religion. May not be suicide bombers, but ask your local abortion doctor what the 90s were like for him.

You can say there's no reasoning with me, in response to me saying it to you, but can you give me one non-bigoted reason to complain about gay marriage? Or, in the case of this, gay gaming conferences? How many people complain about the other themed gaming conferences? I already posted a Christian one, where are the pitchforks for that.

What's worse, RollingThunder, is you keep saying "I don't mind this" or "I don't mind that," but then what are you arguing with me about? About RailWizard's right to be annoyed by this? No one is saying he doesn't have the right, nor are we saying he doesn't have the right to call homosexuality a fetish. We're saying he's an idiot for doing so and clearly has some kind of anti-gay agenda. He denies it, but for godssake he called it a fetish. Maybe being a lefty is also a fetish?