Comments

I'd say yes they do - however, I don't think the comparison to film is a valid one. Early film borrowed a lot from theater, in terms of staging, and in terms of stories. A lot of Fritz Lang's stuff (particularly "M") and the work of other directors expanded on that by going "What if I put the camera here?" "Rather then telling this piece of information through dialog, I'll do a shot of a newspaper headline." "Rather than having the score tell us who the villain is, I'll have him whistle a piece of music and let the audience figure it out - they're not stupid." Etc.

However, we needed to first work from that foundation in theatre. Video Games, on the other hand, basically came about from scratch - they weren't necessarily working from the foundation of either Role-Playing Games or Board games, until much later. And as far as power fantasies are concerned, while they don't need to go away entirely, ultimately, game designers have to balance creating a deep and meaningful story, with a game that's fun to play, and, ideally, one that people will want to play over and over again. Additionally, thanks to the efforts of Jack Thompson and various legislators, it's difficult to actually tell a deeper, mature story without running into problems of, basically, the Moral Minority/Majority complaining about a game being made that's not for kids.

I think the majority of the games that fit her critera that have been made have been horror games - because you have a main character who is not empowered (or even depowered) there and have an audience who will approach the game and will go along with it, and because anymore horror has become a not-for-kids genre, so mature themes can be explored without offending people (see the Silent Hill series). The other genre that comes to mind that addresses these themes is Role-Playing Games, as there you've got a 40+ hour long game, so you have plenty of time to address those themes in the game, either directly, or in a roundabout fashion to they can get crap past the radar.

Hopefully that was semi-coherant, as I'm writing this right after I wrote up, and before I've had coffee.

EDIT: Oh, and if any game designer were able to appropriately fit bawdy humor of the same level and quality as Shakespeare's into a game, and any politicians found out about it - there would be congressional inquiries again.

Why is that almost every response saying "No, video games don't need to grow up" state that movies and books need to 'grow up'?

Am I the only one that realizes that the state of movies and books is irrelevant to the state of games and whether or not they should become mature?

"Shit people, wake up and realize video games are for FUN! FUN FUN FUN!!!!!!!!!! The minute any of these political jackasses spew their crap about how bad kids having FUN is, that's when you know it's bullshit.

It amazes me that society says it's ok to want to participate in a sport where the objective is to cause the most physical damage to the opposing team and it's also ok to watch and idolize everyday people sell out their lives and their family lives for 15 minutes of fame!!!!!

So to anyone that voted "Yes" and plays video games and actually enjoy their time playing the games and have FUN while playing, I respectfully say "FUCK YOU YOU FUCKING HYPOCRITE!!""

I don't see how I am a hypocrite for thinking that most games have the narrative depth of Transformers and that it would be good for it to change (which is not to say that Tranformers is bad, just that the story has as much depth as a Saturday morning cartoon for children).

Also, condemning people for doing actions that they view as fun, while saying that no one should condmend games because they are just "FUN! FUN FUN FUN!!!!!!!!!!" is the definition of hypocrisy. Most people playing sports or performing in reality TV are doing it for fun.

Sports are often seen as the realm of intellectually lazy people though. Barbarians, thugs, grunts, what have you. There are many news stories of the American public viewing athletes as somewhat socially retarded or bizarre too, violent animals, etc. See the OJ Simpson and Kobe Bryant situations, amongst others. I wouldn't be surprised if this Chaplin lady believed many sports fans were in need of "growing up" too.

just because the majority of video games don't correspond with her limited view of what it means to be "adult" doesn't make her opinion valid.

and i'd like to see how movies incorporate responsibility, introspection, intimacy, and intellectual discovery in ways that a game can't.

honestly, hasn't anyone whose actually had an emotional investment in a game gone through the same experience that watching a powerful film or reading a good book invokes? haven't games taught anyone anything about life? of course they have. like any medium, they can take fantasies and use the fiction to reflect real world issues, and they often do. and like any medium, they can be completely pointless and just fun to mess around with.

in conclusion, this woman obviously has deeper issues against males and male-dominated society as a whole, and given her position, video games seem like the obvious target to project her womanly rage.

I'm still trying to decide if Heather needs a "nooner" or a "hummer". Either way she needs to relax a little. Maybe play a little Call of Duty? Get some aggression out that she's clearly been repressing?

FYI Heather, even the "grow up" men are still boys inside, most are just better at hiding it.

How is this even a debate? Am I missing something here? I could have sworn there is one constant in just about every product ever made and sold, and that is to MAKE MONEY!!!!

Who cares if there are half naked women with axes, if it sells then they will keep making it!

Who cares if you think a game has pointless killing of aliens, if it sells, they will keep making it!

Personally, I do care about storyline and what not, which is why I read the official Novels of the Halo and Gears of War universes. But at the same time, video games create a "perfect" world for us where we can do whatever we want and still remain unharmed. But at the same time, I will play wolfenstein 3D just because I can run around and KILL FUCKING NAZIS!!!! THAT IS SO FUN!!!!

Why are ppl in this discussion bringing their own preferences for game types into their reason why the gaming industry needs to "grow up" that is the dumbest thing! Just because you like WoW and RPG's with very deep stories, doesn't mean that the Duke Nuken FPS games should become a friggen soap opera!

Shit people, wake up and realize video games are for FUN! FUN FUN FUN!!!!!!!!!! The minute any of these political jackasses spew their crap about how bad kids having FUN is, that's when you know it's bullshit.

It amazes me that society says it's ok to want to participate in a sport where the objective is to cause the most physical damage to the opposing team and it's also ok to watch and idolize everyday people sell out their lives and their family lives for 15 minutes of fame!!!!!

So to anyone that voted "Yes" and plays video games and actually enjoy their time playing the games and have FUN while playing, I respectfully say "FUCK YOU YOU FUCKING HYPOCRITE!!"

I agree with you. On your point baout people and their favorite genres, there's a reason we have different genres, it's because different people like different things. Some REALLY want story driven content (hello adventure, rpg, mmorpg) others just want to kill stuff. Neither is wrong they are just different.

Frankly she is correct, a LOT of games are childish and immature in their dealings with serious topics. But so are a lot of movies books and tv. There are games that are lawded for their dealings with serious topics, and as far as serious dealings with hard topics go games are often targetted by other groups for even attempting to deal with these topics on a serious basis. After all, games are still only for children in a lot of people's eyes.

That being said I support games becoming a more mature medium with more depth and thought put into them, but I don't believe there is a problem with them now.

I voted no. Anyone remember the brilliant Wing Commander series, or the Total War series or even World in Conflict. All great mature games, no random blowing stuff up, it all has a meaning in terms of the story the game is trying to tell.

I'm 18. I was playing violent video games since I was 5 years old, and I think what Cho Seung Hui, Steven K, and the Columbine Boys all did was downright horrible. Sometimes I would come home from school and boot up Metroid Prime (before my Wii went kaput) and pump some Space Pirates full of hot plasma.

Okami, Beyond Good and Evil, Indigo Prophecy, and many others challenge her claims as video games being just shooting zombies and the such. I do agree with her that many companies are making games that focus on such events, but do you know why they do?

Look at the sales figures of the games I listed. Truly awesome games, wonderful examples of the video game industry. But if they aren't going to sell and make a profit for a company that makes video games for *gasp* financial gain, then why should they venture too far from a formula that works frequently. The industry does pump out great games, but the really inovative titles are much slower coming out because they are a risk and most of the time they don't pay off.

The industry is doing a fine job of catering to the wants of its customers, in my personal opinion.

Ban home video game entertainment, and make them all come back to the cabinets that they were once on. Then will games "Grow Up". Having less access to them would be a much better prize and will force developers to make actual, good games!

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"Because this town is under the stranglehold of a few tight eyed Tree Huggers who would rather play Hacky Sack than lock up the homeless" -- Birch Barlow

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"Because this town is under the stranglehold of a few tight eyed Tree Huggers who would rather play Hacky Sack than lock up the homeless" -- Birch Barlow

I agree with her. There's a whole lot of 'not my responsibility'-ism in our media industries. Well, like it or not they're in a position where they have sway over this generation. They should use it responsibly.

Some of the game companies teach morals that are as nasty, albeit liberal, as the ones JT espouses.

We are all a product of our societies and cultures. There is no escaping this. If you are raised in a house of racists, you will have to make conscious effort to overcome racist thinking. If your father is a womanizer, you will have to watch yourself to not become one.

What you allow into your life influences you, whether blatant or subtle.

Why should morals come into the private sector? So now idiot politicians and fake news anchors should dictate what kind of games I have to choose from? I'm in my mid 20's, I have already been laid off from 2 jobs and I am clinging to this one because there's not much else for me at this stage in life. So if I want a pointless game of shooting off the heads of ALIENS(!!!! not humans....ALIENS) then by g0d let me kill some fucking arrangements of 1's and 0's.

Of course, there are plenty of ppl out there like me that give the gaming industry such a good financial backing. The minute that all the games in the world are based off of "Moral" suggestions from parents/politicians/media then the entire industry will FAIL, simply because no one over the age of 8 will want to play games anymore.

"I agree with her. There's a whole lot of 'not my responsibility'-ism in our media industries. Well, like it or not they're in a position where they have sway over this generation. They should use it responsibly."

Define "responsibly" please. Because last time I checked, if an 8 year old got their hands on GTA 4 and the parent just let them play it, then hmmmmmm the responsibility is ON THE PARENT!!!!! NOT THE DEVELOPERS!!!! WHY?!?! THOSE GAMES ARE FOR MATURE AUDIENCES.

So if you are going to want ALL games to be "E for EVERYONE" friendly, then goodluck trying to make money!

Keep in mind. The video game industry is thriving despite current economic conditions, now think about your mindless restrictive ideas.

What, because "grown up" means sex? You'll find a lot of "grown up" films with low certificates, because they contain no sex or violence. "Grown up" doesn't equal sex, violence or bad language although this is what the games industry seems to think, which is why she was correct in saying that it's run by a bunch of oversized kids (ie they have no idea what adult situations actually are).

Totally agree, also, what the fuck does GROW UP mean? does it mean act like a "Grown up?" Are they fucking serious? I could have sworn the CEOs of all the companies that fucked us over are "Grown Ups" but its ok because it's better than killing fake aliens.

Some guy in Hollywood tried what she wants once. I think he was (originally) a director. Anyhow, somehow he got hired to run one of the big studios and tried to put out more "serious", "artistic", "mature"....movies instead of the typical commercial, violent, sexy... stuff. He was a hero to journalists and critics, but he lasted about a year or so. His movies just about bankrupted the stuidio.

This woman is tilting at windmills. She needs to learn about how markets work.

So it has to be all or nothing? There is no middle-ground? You can't have some thoughtful games, and some bog-standard games? You can't put some intelligence into a game? You can't add some sort of decent writing to games like Gears of War?

It seems like people asking for the growing up are making it all or nothing. There are plenty of great games that make you think, and deal intelligently with their themes. But not all, and people tend to choose shoot-em-ups and the like. Why do people insist on making it all or nothing?

Y'know, people talk about how GTAIV has 'consequence' and 'responsibility'. While true to a certain extent, there's a lot more that could be done with this.

Why not have the entire game revolve around that theme? An ending to a videogame that I would like to play would involve the player character being locked up in a max security prison for life. No, there would not be an escape sequence, he would not kill the guards and go out in a blaze of glory. That would be the end. A fade to black on somebody who made a lot of mistakes in their life.

Of course, I have no idea of the story that would lead up to that point, but I'm sure somebody could come up with something good.

Of course games need to grow up, just about every game out there is about a "Chosen one" who must save the Earth etc. Very few games actually look at human emotion, the games many people here consider to be "art" (even though she didn't talk about art, just maturity) show how little gamers know about drama. Mass Effect (whilst an excellent game) is a typical sci-fi shooter, it does have its moments of characterisation (but these a few are far between) and the ability to have sex does not make it a mature title. Ico and Shadow of Colossus can both be considered art (they are beautiful games), but mature? No and tend to have the bog-standard plot of a game.

Fahrenheit has been the closest at being a mature title, focusing on characters and emotions (yet was let down with the ending, once again going into stereotypical "chosen one" story mode).

Bioshock played around with the idea of what it means to be a game (but it still had stereotypical story game elements in it).

GTA4, a game many think to be dumb (shows how much gamers know about film genres and such) had a lot of satire and critiques on American culture. Compare this to Saints Row 2 (one of the most childish games around, swearing and crudeness does not make one mature) and you can see that Rockstar are trying to do something more with a game than other game makers.

But still games lag way behind film and TV with actually dealing with mature films. Games have a power like no other medium to really explore humanity and to really get into a person's head, due to their interactive nature. This so far have never really been explored in games. Gamers will no doubt say that they don't want maturity in games, but it's not a though mature games will be the only games available, TV and film balance the serious with the stupid, why not games too?

Telling video game to "grow up" in the way it is described here is like telling sci-fi movie producers to stop putting exploding spaceships in their movies and make the scripts more like sci-fi books. I don't really read sci-fi but sci-fi plots in books seem to be more niche than sci-fi plots in movies. If we go by the books and make softer sci-fi that doesn't rely on special effects, sad but true, they'll become even less acceptable by the mainstream if you do that. People still DO want to see exploding spaceships, or robots beating the crap out of each other. Or at least expect to. There are still a few movies in many genres that can nail a suspenseful plot right without relying on a lot of violence.

The people that want more intelligent plots will look for them on their own and won't always follow the box office charts. Same for video games. There's a lot of clever stuff out there, but it fails to make a splash same way. Big misses that more people should've heard about are stuff like Beyond Good & Evil and Psychonauts.

The thing is, video games, being displayed as VIDEO, lean more towards fast-paced action. That's why people prefer to be a magic-spewing wizard, a space marine spraying bullets or a hulking Greek warrior confronting destructive gods. This goes back to the movies and books comparison. Movies are typically going to rely more on visual effects to stimulate your senses (on the other hand I'm curious to know what the content of Halo books is like).

Most of these games may have ham-fisted stories but I consider the gamer's experience to be the real story. Stories about how you narrowly missed that life-killing attack on your last health pack, how you pwned the noobz with your overpowered skills, or how you cut corners to break that speedrun record. These stories are exchanged among gamers and make conversation fodder. With movies, conversation pieces are limited to the plot and the actors around them. With video games every experience is different and can produce seemingly endless stories to tell.

I think of all the entertainment industries, video games need to grow up less than most. Look at movies; there's not a lot of movies with real artistic value these days. And no one bitches about that; even though we keep having Judd Apatow-directed movies come out, movies with so little plot and mostly long strings of drug and sex jokes, no one complains. Never mind that the few 'outstanding' movies often smack of groomed for oscar bullshit (once again, Slumdog Millionaire, which is a shitty movie that was made just so the director could get an oscar out of it). There are no more movies like we used to see, things that really were groundbreaking, be it Monty Python or History of the world Part I for comedy, Apocalypse Now or Black Hawk Down or Saving Private Ryan for war movies, what have you, we don't really set the bar very high in movies anymore. Music's even worse; I swear to God, I turn on the radio and I can't tell the difference between what's on the rock stations most of the time. I stopped listening to 'alternative', once the genre defined by groups like Nirvana, now filled with cookie-cutter crap. Look at books these days; when's the last time a really good book made it to the top 20? Hell, I went into Barnes and Nobles the other day and half the books on their suggested reading rack were Barack Obama puff pieces, that's really artistic and High-brow, to be sure.

Then we have video games, constantly pushing boundaries everywhere. Sure, we have some studios that release crap like Eat Lead, but then we have games like Portal, Left 4 Dead, Legend of Zelda, Final Fantasy, Condemned (one of the creepiest games I have ever played), Bioshock, Half Life 2, Team Fortress, the list just keeps going! What about Dead Space, a great horror game? What about Mass Effect, a great sci-fi story?

But no, Video Games obviously need to grow up. Yeah, what the fuck ever. I think the average American needs to grow up; when we have 80% literacy, I'll agree its time for media to grow up.

Is someone asked me if movies and books need to grow up i would also say yes.

yes, books need to grow up. Tons of perfectly family friendly books have been ruined because of 1 paragragh that contains sexual content. Usally it can be taken out without any change in the story. But the fact that it is there makes me not trust the authors for any of their other books.

-- Currently doing a research project on the short-short term effects SWBF:2 has on peoples abilities to focus.

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Currently doing a research project on the short-short term effects SWBF:2 has on peoples abilities to focus.

I voted no. As I said in the prvious thread, while I like my Mortal Kombat, GTA, Gears of War, God of War, Doom and what have you, I also appreciate more substantial games as well, and they're out there. I don't think games need to "grow up" or at least be held to a certain timetable that they do right now. They should be allowed rather to evolve at their own pace, which I think they're doing. Maybe not in the way Ms. Chaplin would like, but they're doing it.

I put not sure. But the journalists who said video game industry needs to grow up. They already did over the generations. Video game had a lot of limitations and restriction long time ago. Now look at today video game, the industry had evolved (grown up) since the 1970's. I've seen how video game evolved:

1972-Magnavox Odyssey became the first video game console ever. Most video game before 1972 you have to play them at the arcade.

1980-even though before Xbox Live, PSN Network, or SEGA channel. There was early online gaming, but not as great as now. This is evolution.

1979-before DS and PSP, there was the Microvision from Milton Bradley (even though, we should credit Mattel Auto Race which was created in 1978). Without those we wouldn't have DS, PSP, or Iphone today.

1991 and 1992-Sega Mega CD or Sega CD was the first console to use CD as another format. SEGA CD was able to play not games from CD but also Audio CDs (The Playstation wasn't the first).

Intresting fact: Did you know the Playstation would have been a Nintendo Product not Sony, if these 2 haven't broke relationship. If they didn't, then the Playstation 3 and the Wii would have been combined forming a powerful video game console.

2000-Playstation 2 became the first console to play back DVD movies.

2001-Xbox became the first console to have a internal HDD and you can store music in there. It also had a perfect online services.

2006-Playstation 3 became the first console to use Blu-Ray disc, and using a program called Folding@home.

2005-Xbox 360 became the first console where you can download movies, TV shows.

This is how video game grown up and evolved. It'll evolve more and more in the future.

I don't think games like Gears of War should go away or change, but I also don't think they should be held up as the paragon of gaming and what it represents. There's room for both what Chaplin's talking about as well as the inane stuff.

there are plenty of "power fantasy" books and movies, but they're okay?

storytelling is storytelling. sometimes the story is stupid, sometimes it's great. we don't yell at children's book authors or people making Die Hard 67, so it's a little hypocritical to bitch about games.

I said "no," but I freely admit there is room to grow. Just not in the way a forty-year-old man needs to grow up and move out of his mother's basement. There are games trying new things and tackling deeper topics, they just get a bit overshadowed by some of the games that... well, don't. It takes time, and it also takes people accepting different games. Honestly, some people can afford to make whatever they want, but companies have to make games that will sell too. Otherwise they go bankrupt, and that would seriously suck.

I voted a partial yes. I already wrote my piece on the other article, but just to summarize:

[The other mediums (TV, music, literature, and film) are a heck of a lot older than video games, so the point she's trying to raise is moot. There is sexism in the world of entertainment, but trying to fault video games as the most immature is quite wrong.

Truth is, we haven't found a way to translate "responsibility, introspection, intimacy, and intellectual discovery" into video games. I don't see how this could be possible in the near future, and the closest thing I probably have ever seen this happen is in one of the old school RPGs, namely Fallout 1 and 2 and Baldur's Gate 2.

Games function on the realm of fantasy, and any life lesson that you want to transmit to your player will get lost as soon as he/she stops playing. Getting a game to have the concepts she mentioned above is going to take a lot of effort, and a heck of a lot more time.]

I dunno why everyone brings up those three games as something "immature" shure it's easy to see Gears as some bloodfest, but there are some messages about the War in Iraq, human resource consuption, and so on. GTA is the strangest of those that I see come up because out of every game in the entire library of video games, GTA 4 stands out as a game with so many messages about Americian life and the Americian Dream. The moral choices are more powerful than any other game I have encountered next to KOTOR 2, because what they are saying is "there is no "good" choice or "bad" choice, it's a crappy situation and whatever you choose will be a crappy outcome, who dies is up to you."

I don't understand the question, or at least why it's being asked. I play grown-up videogames, and I play childish videogames. Similarly, I watch grown-up and childish TV and movies, read grown-up and childish books.

Why single games out? This is like all the nonsense about trying to make comic books "literature" in the public eye. It's a useless exercise, and quite needless.

I think they do, but the thing is, is everyone is trying to do so at the same time. Look at every mainstream game today, Halo, Metal Gear, Resident Evil, Modern Warfare, even Gears of War. If you look closely, all those games have some mature theme or message to them. Halo is just a modern reinterpertation of Noah's ark, Metal Gear has tons of messages spanning from genetics, nuclear proliferation, and war economy, Resident Evil has themes of colonialism, African explotation, and darwinism, Modern Warfare has themes of pro-war and anti-war agenda's as well as facism. And Gears of War has themes of resource consuption and Iraq War comparasons.

The thing is, is there are some games that get it right like Metal Gear, Halo, and Modern Warfare, yet there is a bunch of games that try to get their message and fail at it miserably by either being too subtle or being too preachy, for example Haze, Too Human, Gears of War (particularly 1), and Resident Evil 5.

Games just need to display these messages better to succed becoming an important medium of art.

The video gaming world has already grown up a hell of a lot, especially in the last few years. What more do we really need?

If anything, it needs a little regression. Today, it seems to be all about "How much power i have" and "How many games i have where i can shoot things." Don't get me wrong, shooting things is good. But not if it's almost being used as the template for ANY game that the mindless masses will even pay attention to. That's why i applaud the remake and compilation efforts going on right now. Mega Man 9, Final Fantasy 3 and 4, Dragon Quest 4-6, Sonic's Ultimate Genesis Collection, and so on. More of those games need to be made, and more of the franchises people loved need a true revival. (Star Fox, Zelda: NOT Spirit Tracks)

Games don't need to grow up. The market does... and so do the critics. And this is true for 99% of all media, as well.

As it stands, games have about the same sort of 'hit ratio' that movies do, if not better. Of *course* Gears and the like aren't deep games - as others have said before, they're like summer blockbusters. Sure-fire feel-goods meant to prop up the bottom line and enable deeper projects meant for your 'Oscar bait' releases.

Unfortunately, as it stands, it's not just the market and the designers who need to grow up. The critics bring up Gears of War... but those aren't the games they *really* go after. Any time a game attempts to bring in something a little bit deeper/more out of the ordinary, they pounce on it. Positive (or even neutral) portrayals of homosexuality in games, anyone?

Ultimately, everybody needs to grow up a bit more, in respect to the games. I, for one, would *love* to see more subjects addressed, and the games put more effort into making people think... but until that sells, and until you can get away with it without the Thompsons of the world jumping on your head and trying to snap it off, it's not going to happen.

Infophile: @Matt: Apparently Dan Aykroyd actually is involved. We don't know how yet, though, but he's apparently going to be in the movie in some way.08/02/2015 - 4:17am

Mattsworkname: I still hold that not having the origonal cast invovled in any way hurts this movie, and unless the 4 actresses in the lead roles can some how measure up to the comic timing of the origonal cast, i just don't see it being a success08/02/2015 - 12:46am

Mattsworkname: Mecha: regardless of what you think of it, GB 2 was a finanical success and for it time did well with audiances ,even if it wasnt as popular as the first08/02/2015 - 12:45am

MechaTama31: I think they're better off trying to do something different, than trying to be exactly the same and having every little difference held up as a shortcoming. Uncanny valley.08/01/2015 - 11:57pm

MechaTama31: Having the original cast didn't do much for... that pink-slimed atrocity which we must never speak of.08/01/2015 - 11:56pm

Mattsworkname: Andrew: If the new ghostbusters bombs, I cant help but feel it'll be cause it removed the origonal cast and changed the formula to much08/01/2015 - 8:31pm

Andrew Eisen: Not the best look but that appears to be a PKE meter hanging from McCarthy's belt.08/01/2015 - 7:34pm

Mattsworkname: You know what game is a lot of fun? rocket league. It' s a soccer game thats actually fun to play cause your A Freaking CAR!08/01/2015 - 7:02pm

Mattsworkname: Nomad colossus did a little video about it, showing the world and what can be explored in it's current form. It's worth a look, and he uses text for commentary as not to break the immerison08/01/2015 - 5:49pm

Mattsworkname: I feel some more mobility would have made it more interesting and I feel that a larger more diverse landscape with better graphiscs would help, but as a concept, it interests me08/01/2015 - 5:48pm