THERAVADA VERSION OF THE TWO TRUTHSY. KARUNADASA Visiting Professor Centre of Buddhist Studies, University of Hong Kong(Emeritus Professor, University of Kelaniya, Sri Lanka)http://skb.or.kr/down/papers/094.pdf

with mettaChris

---The trouble is that you think you have time------Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe------It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

tiltbillings wrote:Just out of curiosity, you two-truth pooh-pooh-ers (Alex123, Daverupa, retro)) what do you see is wrong with the two-truth notion? Gives us a bit more than simple pooh-poohing.

As for me, the question goes the other way, tilt - of what use is such an idea? What, from the SuttaVinaya, is made clearer?

"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

You were asked as simple question, and I got dodge in response. You tend make snide and dismissive remarks about various teachings with which you disagree and when asked about what you are saying you just refuse to explain your remarks, and so it goes here, again.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.People live in one another’s shelter.

tiltbillings wrote:You were asked as simple question, and I got dodge in response.

You were asked a simple question as well - which isn't a dodge, it actually cuts to the chase, but you'll see what you want.

tiltbillings wrote:snide and dismissive remarks

tiltbillings wrote:you two-truth pooh-pooh-ers

Indeed.

"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

And these terms do not even need to be interpreted as saying about two truths.

Last edited by Alex123 on Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

tiltbillings wrote:Just out of curiosity, you two-truth pooh-pooh-ers (Alex123, Daverupa, retro)) what do you see is wrong with the two-truth notion? Gives us a bit more than simple pooh-poohing.

I won't be engaging with such an immature question, thank you.

Metta,Retro.

If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding: Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)

Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7

tiltbillings wrote:I asked you first, and as matter of curtesy, your answering the question would be the way to go, and in turn then asking me question.

AN 4.42 wrote:"There are these four ways of answering questions. Which four? There are questions that should be answered categorically. There are questions that should be answered with an analytical (qualified) answer. There are questions that should be answered with a counter-question. There are questions that should be put aside. These are the four ways of answering questions."

"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

tiltbillings wrote:I asked you first, and as matter of curtesy, your answering the question would be the way to go, and in turn then asking me question.

AN 4.42 wrote:"There are these four ways of answering questions. Which four? There are questions that should be answered categorically. There are questions that should be answered with an analytical (qualified) answer. There are questions that should be answered with a counter-question. There are questions that should be put aside. These are the four ways of answering questions."

Okay, then let mne simply say that I'll be happy to address your question when I understand what your objection is to the tweo truth notion. That is what I want to address. It may be that your objection is quite valid. I do not think that one must accept the two truths notion, but I a curious about the dismissal of it beyond what very little that has been said here by those are dismissing it.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.People live in one another’s shelter.

daverupa wrote:As for me, the question goes the other way, tilt - of what use is such an idea? What, from the SuttaVinaya, is made clearer?

As I said above: viewtopic.php?f=29&t=10184#p155954 I think the contrast between "slicing up experience into bits" and "talking about beings" is rather obvious in the Suttas.

So, I can't really agree with this statement:

retrofuturist wrote:That's a slightly different spectrum though to the distinction between sutta language and paramattha dhammas.

since I see paramattha dhamma as simply an extension of the khandha/sense bases/elements/etc slicing of phenomenological experience. Just a more thorough classification of phenomenology (which may or may not be particularly necessary, but that's a different issue).

1. responding with reference to the OP's question, 2. in the context of the Early Buddhism sub-forum, 3. in a topic entitled "Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?"

Accordingly I'm not in this sub-forum to talk about the merits or usefulness (or otherwise) of that which clearly isn't "early" and what the Buddha didn't teach. That would be...

... so the different issues will be left to the side.

Metta,Retro.

If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding: Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)

Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7

retrofuturist wrote:Accordingly I'm not in this sub-forum to talk about the merits or usefulness (or otherwise) of that which clearly isn't "early" and what the Buddha didn't teach.

I beg to differ:

1. I've explained how I see the "two truth" thing plays out very obviously (to me) in the suttas, so I don't agree with your assertion that "The Buddha didn't teach it." 2. "Early Buddhism" is (to me) about the various early schools. So the various Abhidhammas/Abhidharmas and commentaries are relevant.

mikenz66 wrote:I see paramattha dhamma as simply an extension of the khandha/sense bases/elements/etc slicing of phenomenological experience.

Metta,Retro.

If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding: Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)

Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7