stiletto_the_wise:I'm not sure if "how many times someone was accused of something in the past" is admissible as evidence in a court.

I only have a GED in law, but I think most of the time it isn't. But what it can do is prompt a more thorough investigation to check back over the old cases to see if anything is missed, think extra hard about if there's anything else that you can do.

Thunderpipes:She wanted the guy relocated and a type of restraining order on him. Don't prance around and pretend this has no impact on the guy because it is not in the court system.

I don't entirely agree with Genevieve, but I do think she has a point there. Those are non-criminal sanctions, they do have a different burden of proof, and what's more, that's rightfully so because the consequences are very different. Don't pretend like the university saying "you get that dorm over there" (heck, we didn't even really get absolute pick of what dorm we wanted) and perhaps some type of restraining order (I don't remember seeing that in the articles, but whatever) are similar to being thrown in jail.

The legal system is based around balancing acts between the rights of the accused and the rights of the accuser. When the consequences are substantially less severe for the accused, to shift the balance back the accuser gets a lower burden of proof.

OgreMagi:So did the (alleged) victim file charges, or is she just going around accusing her ex-boyfriend of rape? If she was raped (and I'm not saying she wasn't), then the police need to be involved. If she's not willing to go through the legal process (maybe she's just a psycho ex-girlfriend), then she is committing slander and libel which damn well is an honor code violation.

Exactly. Most people here just assume the guy is guilty, and no harm done. Can you imagine how tough it would be for a college guy to be known on campus as the raper? That is exactly why there needs to be real legal system action. If he is guilty, he will be punished, if she is just a biatch, she will be outted as such. Right now he is just screwed.

BarkingUnicorn:UNC's feeble defense seems to be, "We didn't do anything; a totally independent student organization did it. We even gave them A WHOLE DAY of training!" Not going to wash; for one thing, the student court has a faculty adviser who was responsible for monitoring the court. For another, UNC relieved the court of jurisdiction over sexual assaults shortly before this complaint was filed, establishing that it does have control over the court.

The one thing I didn't see in this story is whether or not the girl has retained a real farking lawyer yet. I'm pretty sure even some shiatty ambulance chaser could put the fear of god into these people.

ExperianScaresCthulhu:ciberido: Cataholic: There are likely scores of men sitting in prison who were falsely convicted of rape (not because they are the wrong man, but because no rape occurred). There are also thousands of women who have been raped and for which no person has been convicted of doing it. Why does anyone feel the need to pick one side over the other instead of supporting a system that would reduce both?

Ah, the good old "false accusations of rape are just as big a problem as rape itself" argument. I always enjoy the classics.

gilgigamesh:yeah, I figured something like this was the real "honor code violation" before I even clicked. She's being punished for making the school look bad. Keeping the epidemic of campus rape hush-hush is the only priority, and the result is: surprise! More rape.

I get that rape is bad. WHY is rape handled by the university and not the local police?Is this one of those "the local cops would be worse than campus cops" things?Do schools report their reported rape numbers along with other stats when advertising their schools?Do women look at those numbers and pick low rape schools??

Abacus9:ExperianScaresCthulhu: ciberido: Cataholic: There are likely scores of men sitting in prison who were falsely convicted of rape (not because they are the wrong man, but because no rape occurred). There are also thousands of women who have been raped and for which no person has been convicted of doing it. Why does anyone feel the need to pick one side over the other instead of supporting a system that would reduce both?

Ah, the good old "false accusations of rape are just as big a problem as rape itself" argument. I always enjoy the classics.

evaned:stiletto_the_wise: I'm not sure if "how many times someone was accused of something in the past" is admissible as evidence in a court.

I only have a GED in law, but I think most of the time it isn't. But what it can do is prompt a more thorough investigation to check back over the old cases to see if anything is missed, think extra hard about if there's anything else that you can do.

Thunderpipes: She wanted the guy relocated and a type of restraining order on him. Don't prance around and pretend this has no impact on the guy because it is not in the court system.

I don't entirely agree with Genevieve, but I do think she has a point there. Those are non-criminal sanctions, they do have a different burden of proof, and what's more, that's rightfully so because the consequences are very different. Don't pretend like the university saying "you get that dorm over there" (heck, we didn't even really get absolute pick of what dorm we wanted) and perhaps some type of restraining order (I don't remember seeing that in the articles, but whatever) are similar to being thrown in jail.

The legal system is based around balancing acts between the rights of the accused and the rights of the accuser. When the consequences are substantially less severe for the accused, to shift the balance back the accuser gets a lower burden of proof.

But in this case, the guy is considered guilty by pretty much everyone around campus, and he will suffer real problems. It is her right to accuse him, but if she hurts him and he did nothing wrong, he needs to be able to sue her, and the University if it is involved.

OgreMagi:If she's not willing to go through the legal process (maybe she's just a psycho ex-girlfriend), then she is committing slander and libel which damn well is an honor code violation.

I think you need to look up what slander and libel are. Hint: there are more than those two options, and the burden of proof required to establish each comes up again. (Even if the guy was found not guilty, it would not be a foregone conclusion that she would be committing slander.) Also: she was barely even defaming him by any stretch, as she hasn't publicly named him.

And as others have said many times, this article is less about the rape, and more about the quality of the school's response, and even more about the possible retaliation on the part of the school to the DOE charges. We've only seen one side of the story, but potentially UNC could be the next recipient (after PSU) of The Catholic Church Award For Distinguished Institutional Response to Sexual Crimes.

I don't even argue with that one anymore, it's too obnoxiously disheartening to fight with someone who thinks that forcible sexual violation of a woman's body is just not that big a deal compared to the horror that some people might think a man is a bad person if he's not.

thorthor:ExperianScaresCthulhu: thorthor: Ok haven't read every comment because the trolling of this subject makes me ill. Some things just aren't funny. My personal feeling is that rape, especially violent rape, Proven in a court of law should be eligible for the death penalty where it applies.

evaned:OgreMagi: If she's not willing to go through the legal process (maybe she's just a psycho ex-girlfriend), then she is committing slander and libel which damn well is an honor code violation.

I think you need to look up what slander and libel are. Hint: there are more than those two options, and the burden of proof required to establish each comes up again. (Even if the guy was found not guilty, it would not be a foregone conclusion that she would be committing slander.) Also: she was barely even defaming him by any stretch, as she hasn't publicly named him.

And as others have said many times, this article is less about the rape, and more about the quality of the school's response, and even more about the possible retaliation on the part of the school to the DOE charges. We've only seen one side of the story, but potentially UNC could be the next recipient (after PSU) of The Catholic Church Award For Distinguished Institutional Response to Sexual Crimes.

Or, the university could be completely in the right. Almost everyone here is operating under the assumption the college is doing something wrong. What are they doing wrong? They don't agree with some of the women? They didn't allow some women to get special treatment in class, leave from class, etc? I would have to think to go through the "clown court" as someone put it, you sign a form saying you agree to their rulings and let them hear the case.

What if the facts come out, the chick is insane crazy, and the board heard the case(s) and came to logical conclusions?

You mean what if the facts come out and she's crazy, and so other the other 64 rape survivors participating in the complaint against the university, and so is the former assistant dean who resigned because of the way the university was choosing to handle the case?

bigwf2007:evaned: bigwf2007: BarkingUnicorn: Oh, it's much bigger than that. She is only one of many who signed the complaint. A pattern of covering up rape is alleged. If proven, UNC can join Penn State.

Three is many?

No, but 67 is: "On Wednesday, Pino and UNC alumna Annie Clark, supported by fellow UNC student Landen Gambill -- all sexual assault survivors -- filed a formal complaint with the U.S. Department of Education's Office of Civil Rights on behalf of themselves and those 64 other victims, whose names are being kept confidential."

There are then only three names on the complaint. Five according to some other reports. That's still not many.

For rape? Rape that gets covered up by administrators? Yes, three is "many."

Well, mostly. Rape cover-up is kind of standard for colleges. It's not some anti-woman agenda, of course, it's just the lie that all universities tell, that their campus is "safe."

Which is probably what this is actually about. She's making noise that gets the school bad press, and now she's making MORE noise which will probably lead to them backing down, then finding a quiet way to make her go away.

Abacus9:thorthor: ExperianScaresCthulhu: thorthor: Ok haven't read every comment because the trolling of this subject makes me ill. Some things just aren't funny. My personal feeling is that rape, especially violent rape, Proven in a court of law should be eligible for the death penalty where it applies.

I don't even argue with that one anymore, it's too obnoxiously disheartening to fight with someone who thinks that forcible sexual violation of a woman's body is just not that big a deal compared to the horror that some people might think a man is a bad person if he's not.

So you have no problem with a guy spending 20 years in prison and later being cleared? No big deal, right?

Look at the damn headline of this article here. Perfect example of why your attitude is scary.

Student charged with an honor code violation for "intimidating" her rapist by speaking publicly

Her rapist. Already guilty.

Not one single person I have ever heard of doesn't think rape is a big deal. It is. But ruining a guy's life is a big deal too. From the article, sounds like an angry crazy chick without enough evidence to go to the police.

evaned:So what do you do? It seems like a lose-lose situation. I don't like the idea of convicting someone in a case where almost the sole evidence for an essential component of the crime is what a witness says happened, even if that witness appears very credible.

Gee, I don't know. It's a puzzler. Maybe somebody should do a study or something.

Genevieve Marie:I don't even argue with that one anymore, it's too obnoxiously disheartening to fight with someone who thinks that forcible sexual violation of a woman's body is just not that big a deal compared to the horror that some people might think a man is a bad person if he's not.

Oh that's too much of flamebait for me to not respond to. Do you really think that's all that it is? No acknowledgement that even a failed false accusation could lead to tens of thousands of dollars in legal bills and significant problems getting a job for years? (I had a friend who faced the latter issue after not being convicted of anything.) That a successful one will lead a decade or two of prison, during which with a depressingly high probability (and a depressingly low amount of care from most people) the accused will face the very crime he was convicted of?

I don't want to minimize the crime of rape; it's traumatic mentally and often physically. But, at the same time, there are lots of women out there who, 5 or 10 years after a rape, are leading happy, productive, healthy lives; who are starting families and working on their careers. How many people convicted of rape can you say that about?

I don't want to comment about what the overall balance society-wide should be between the accuser and accused, or whether rape or false accusations are worse at that level. But you being dismissive of the damage caused by a false accusation is no less ridiculous than a lot of the stuff you are replying to.

Thunderpipes:I would have to think to go through the "clown court" as someone put it, you sign a form saying you agree to their rulings and let them hear the case.

That agreement is probably hidden in all the orms that you sign in the registrar/financial office when signing all the papers for enrollment, Pell grants, scholarships, loans, housing, etc. ad infinitum.

Do you read all that crap?

/I do, unless I'm already familiar with it, then just scan, esp. the revision # at the bottom. Have pissed off many bankers/realtors/ain. agents by "wasting their time".

evaned:OgreMagi: If she's not willing to go through the legal process (maybe she's just a psycho ex-girlfriend), then she is committing slander and libel which damn well is an honor code violation.

I think you need to look up what slander and libel are. Hint: there are more than those two options, and the burden of proof required to establish each comes up again. (Even if the guy was found not guilty, it would not be a foregone conclusion that she would be committing slander.) Also: she was barely even defaming him by any stretch, as she hasn't publicly named him.

And as others have said many times, this article is less about the rape, and more about the quality of the school's response, and even more about the possible retaliation on the part of the school to the DOE charges. We've only seen one side of the story, but potentially UNC could be the next recipient (after PSU) of The Catholic Church Award For Distinguished Institutional Response to Sexual Crimes.

The article didn't make it clear if she was naming him or not. If she was, but had not gone to the police, then there is a potential for a slander/libel case. In which case telling the truth, no matter how bad it makes the guy look, being an absolute defense. And even if she did not state the guy's name, she made it clear it was her ex-boyfriend, which is probably just as good as naming him.

As for the university's stance. The girl is going around saying someone raped her. There is no police report, there is no case, there are no charges. I think the university is right in their stance so long as the girl is not following through the proper legal process and getting charges filed. However, if the girl does get charges filed and the university does not give her the proper support, then her claims against the university would be true.

At this time when a woman screams "rape" or "child abuse", there is an automatic assumption of guilt, even when the evidence shows the exact opposite (Duke Lacrosse, anyone?). I want rapists in jail. I also want people who make false charges in jail. Since she has not filed charges, I'm going to have to go with the "psycho ex-girlfriend" story. I'm ready to change that stance depending on how things play out.

Genevieve Marie:And there are laws against perjury if someone lies under oath and it's proven they did it. You're arguing for laws that already exist in that instance.

But if someone reports rape to the police and the police don't believe them? That doesn't mean it didn't happen and that doesn't mean they should be prosecuted. It just means either the rapist is going to walk, or the innocent man isn't going to be prosecuted and is free to move about his life.

Believe it or not, very rarely does a false rape charge that doesn't end in conviction get so much media attention that the man's life is ruined.

Are we FINALLY starting to collect some data so that we can answer these questions?I know that some jurisdictions do a better job of investing all rape claims, even the ones where the claim is withdrawn.You would think by now that we would be doing a TINY bit better on this problem.

Rumney notes that some officers seem to "have fixed views and expectations about how genuine rape victims should react to their victimization." He adds that "qualitative research also suggests that some officers continue to exhibit an unjustified scepticism of rape complainants, while others interpret such things as lack of evidence or complaint withdrawal as 'proof' of a false allegation."FFS

Stewart, in one instance, considered a case disproved, stating that "it was totally impossible to have removed her extremely tight undergarments from her extremely large body against her will"WTF?!!!

Genevieve Marie:Thunderpipes: What if the facts come out, the chick is insane crazy

You mean what if the facts come out and she's crazy, and so other the other 64 rape survivors participating in the complaint against the university, and so is the former assistant dean who resigned because of the way the university was choosing to handle the case?

That seems likely.

It actually is just as likely as not. The complaints seem to be the college is not giving victims of real, reported rape, and "clown court" accusations special treatment (leave from class, etc.). Courts will have to decide if the college policies are discriminatory. I agree the clown court is a stupid idea, but the chicks all had the option of the real courts. Could be a good case. If a girl claims rape, does not go to the police, has no evidence, should the University be punished for not giving special treatment? What special treatment should victims of assault get? Who decides what a victim is? Has to be a real court case? Just a word?

pudding7:BarkingUnicorn: China White Tea: HoratioGates: IgG4: Are you drunk? Look if you get raped you go to the cops and press charges then you let the DA take it from there. You don't file a complaint with the US Dept of Ed Office of Civil Rights. When you do that you look like an activist with an axe to grind, which in this case I think she probably is. How that makes me a psychopath I have no idea.

That's not how campus law works. There is a 'legal' system in place and most campus issues are resolved there. It's like binding arbitration, only with more rape.

Is this actually the case? Sure, they have their "Honor Court", but I'm pretty sure they can't actually deny anyone who has the good sense to blow off some shiatheels looking for resume fluff and bring in the professionals.

Most universities have their own campus cops. They're the first cops that a victim will turn to because a) they're handy and b) the victim knows and trusts them. Their main job is to steer victims into the campus "justice" system. Universities hammer into students' heads that these "resources" are all students need.

I guarantee you these women had conversations something like this:

"Hello, campus cop! I want to report a rape."

"Well, honey, I'm here for you... go ahead."

"No, I wanna report it to the city police!"

"You don't want to do that. Them rape exams suck. It will take months. Defense attorney will drag you through the mud. We can handle this faster and make it much easier on you. We don't even have to tell your parents!"

In that scenario, what does "we can handle this" mean to both parties? What does "justice" look like to the victim in this hypothetical where the real cops aren't involved?

The worst student court can do is recommend expulsion. Short of that, it could put the offender on probation, issue a reprimand, levy a small fine, or some other silly shiat. This girl may have concluded that she could get him out of her life through the "kinder, gentler" student court without giving him a criminal record.

And she probably had a lot of "help" coming to that conclusion from the school. I find it significant that the assistant dean of students in charge of sexual assault matters is on this girl's side in the Dept. of Ed. complaint, after recently leaving her job due to disagreement about how it should be done.

evaned:Genevieve Marie: I don't even argue with that one anymore, it's too obnoxiously disheartening to fight with someone who thinks that forcible sexual violation of a woman's body is just not that big a deal compared to the horror that some people might think a man is a bad person if he's not.

Oh that's too much of flamebait for me to not respond to. Do you really think that's all that it is? No acknowledgement that even a failed false accusation could lead to tens of thousands of dollars in legal bills and significant problems getting a job for years? (I had a friend who faced the latter issue after not being convicted of anything.) That a successful one will lead a decade or two of prison, during which with a depressingly high probability (and a depressingly low amount of care from most people) the accused will face the very crime he was convicted of?

I don't want to minimize the crime of rape; it's traumatic mentally and often physically. But, at the same time, there are lots of women out there who, 5 or 10 years after a rape, are leading happy, productive, healthy lives; who are starting families and working on their careers. How many people convicted of rape can you say that about?

I don't want to comment about what the overall balance society-wide should be between the accuser and accused, or whether rape or false accusations are worse at that level. But you being dismissive of the damage caused by a false accusation is no less ridiculous than a lot of the stuff you are replying to.

Well, in this particular case, no legal charges were filed and the young man in question has not had to hire any lawyers or face arrest, trial or anything of the sort. And the original comment I was responding to was related to this case.

But honestly? I still don't see how legal bills and difficulty finding employment even begin to compare in awfulness to having your body forcibly sexually violated. Don't get me wrong, still terrible. Still not more terrible than rape, not even by a long shot.

Genevieve Marie:Thunderpipes: So you have no problem with a guy spending 20 years in prison and later being cleared? No big deal, right?

You're conflating accusations of rape with convictions for rape, which is particularly stupid when the victim in question has not sought criminal charges against the abuser.

You're also mixing up the details of a few different cases.

Thumbs up to Genevieve. I sometimes wonder how many people really are confused about the issue or are determined to confuse the issue. Seems the real point of this conversation has been derailed anyway. It isn't about the rape victim, it is about the school that might be systematically covering up rape. Then again, easier to say that slut lied than to white knight the school. No, I didn't read through the whole thing, made it to pagination 6 or so but this thread escalated fast in posts.

I don't even argue with that one anymore, it's too obnoxiously disheartening to fight with someone who thinks that forcible sexual violation of a woman's body is just not that big a deal compared to the horror that some people might think a man is a bad person if he's not.

Just so you know, that's not me you were quoting, I was quoting someone else and you quoted my quote (yo dog...).

ParagonComplex:Am I an asshole for wondering how said rape transpired? More specifically, if it happened at a frat party, she got too much to drink, and things went sour? If so, although still a terrible thing, live and learn, own up to your own shortcomings, and carry on. If not, sue these mother frakkers for ... no, not "for all they're worth", because pieces of trash like this aren't worth much, but sue them for more than they're worth, get out of that piece of garbage school, and educate people so something like this never happens again.

Thunderpipes:Almost everyone here is operating under the assumption the college is doing something wrong. What are they doing wrong? They don't agree with some of the women? They didn't allow some women to get special treatment in class, leave from class, etc? I would have to think to go through the "clown court" as someone put it, you sign a form saying you agree to their rulings and let them hear the case.

Did you read the accusations? It's far from a matter of "I didn't like the outcome." The very investigation done by the university's group was (allegedly) belittling to the people bringing the cases, that the university did not follow through with its agreements, and there's a charge that probably meant that the group violated student privacy laws by forwarding information about the assault to the person's parents.

Rape kits often don't prove anything, because they don't speak to consent. (At least in the common case.) Polygraphs don't have enough signal-to-noise, and are often inadmissible for good reason.

ciberido:Gee, I don't know. It's a puzzler. Maybe somebody should do a study or something.

I feel very strongly that overall statistics like that should have essentially no bearing on individual court decisions. If you reach decision X is a rape trial, you should reach that decision in today's society, in one where false accusations happen 1/10th as much, and in one where they happen 10 times as much. Your evidence should come from the trial.

Genevieve Marie:Thunderpipes: When the Duke Lacrosse team is let out of prison?

The Duke Lacrosse team was exonerated, very publicly, and was not sent to prison.

It was also one case. Does it not strike you as odd that it's the only false accuser story people ever bring up?

Not really, because it was a huge, fairly recent case. Also, it took a long time for it to be accepted as a false accuser case. Did Nancy Grace eat a bullet for the time she continued to accuse the students even after it became clear that they did not rape the stripper?Also, you are leaving out the bigger case of say, Tawana Brawley. I do not condone rape, but I also do not condone fake rape allegations. Oh no, that's two high profile cases. I'm sure there are no others.

I don't even argue with that one anymore, it's too obnoxiously disheartening to fight with someone who thinks that forcible sexual violation of a woman's body is just not that big a deal compared to the horror that some people might think a man is a bad person if he's not.

Just so you know, that's not me you were quoting, I was quoting someone else and you quoted my quote (yo dog...).

Oh I know. I was agreeing with you. It just didn't quote the whole exchange.

Genevieve Marie:Also, this is a story of exactly what can happen when universities fail to take allegations of stalking and harassment seriously: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Yeardley_Love

That sucks, and yes, that should be taken seriously. A chick just shot a dude, stabbed him 27 times, and slit his throat. She had all kinds of weird emails and text messages. Does that mean all women are suspect?

I could link a bunch of stories about guys in prison for years because of false accusations of rape. Would you agree false accusations need to be taken seriously and the rights of men protected as well?

Sounds like to me, correct me if I am wrong, you think any woman, without evidence, should be able to have physical conditions and other punishments inflicted on a man and the man should have no right to a trial, because men are evil and dangerous. If anyone disagrees, then the DOJ should step in and crush them.

Fano:Genevieve Marie: Thunderpipes: When the Duke Lacrosse team is let out of prison?

The Duke Lacrosse team was exonerated, very publicly, and was not sent to prison.

It was also one case. Does it not strike you as odd that it's the only false accuser story people ever bring up?

Not really, because it was a huge, fairly recent case. Also, it took a long time for it to be accepted as a false accuser case. Did Nancy Grace eat a bullet for the time she continued to accuse the students even after it became clear that they did not rape the stripper?Also, you are leaving out the bigger case of say, Tawana Brawley. I do not condone rape, but I also do not condone fake rape allegations. Oh no, that's two high profile cases. I'm sure there are no others.

Fake rape accusations may exist and nobody can determine the absolute number of how many occur, but last I saw one of the most under-reported criminal acts is rape.

Thunderpipes:Genevieve Marie: Popular Opinion: Genevieve Marie: Popular Opinion: how about perjury?

If someone lies under oath, sure. Do you know how rare it is for false accusations to make it to a court room?

how rarely is some innocent person put to death in prison?not that often, but enough that people are against it.

And there are laws against perjury if someone lies under oath and it's proven they did it. You're arguing for laws that already exist in that instance.

But if someone reports rape to the police and the police don't believe them? That doesn't mean it didn't happen and that doesn't mean they should be prosecuted. It just means either the rapist is going to walk, or the innocent man isn't going to be prosecuted and is free to move about his life.

Believe it or not, very rarely does a false rape charge that doesn't end in conviction get so much media attention that the man's life is ruined.

Employer does a Google search.... Sorry Rapey McRapems, we aren't hiring. Does a background check.... Sorry Evil Guy, arrest in Chickville in 2006 for rape. We are not hiring. What, you could not afford a $100,000 legal bill to get things expunged?

BarkingUnicorn:And she probably had a lot of "help" coming to that conclusion from the school. I find it significant that the assistant dean of students in charge of sexual assault matters is on this girl's side in the Dept. of Ed. complaint, after recently leaving her job due to disagreement about how it should be done.

FFSWhy isnt the NUMBER 1 issue reporting the crime to the police and DA and assisting with the investigation of the crime?Why isnt the NUMBER 2 issue collecting data and making it public so prospective students can properly assess the risk of one university vs another.(this school has 2.9 reported rapes per 1000 students, this school has 0.1 per 1000, etc.)(of course, this might cause more cover ups instead of factual reporting)(of course, schools found guilty of lying and covering up rapes could lose all federal funding, which would solve everything)(of course, tons of people would have all kinds of problems with this)(where did the slashes go??)

evaned:Thunderpipes: Almost everyone here is operating under the assumption the college is doing something wrong. What are they doing wrong? They don't agree with some of the women? They didn't allow some women to get special treatment in class, leave from class, etc? I would have to think to go through the "clown court" as someone put it, you sign a form saying you agree to their rulings and let them hear the case.

Did you read the accusations? It's far from a matter of "I didn't like the outcome." The very investigation done by the university's group was (allegedly) belittling to the people bringing the cases, that the university did not follow through with its agreements, and there's a charge that probably meant that the group violated student privacy laws by forwarding information about the assault to the person's parents.

Abacus9: How is it not provable? Rape kits, polygraphs, etc.

Rape kits often don't prove anything, because they don't speak to consent. (At least in the common case.) Polygraphs don't have enough signal-to-noise, and are often inadmissible for good reason.

ciberido: Gee, I don't know. It's a puzzler. Maybe somebody should do a study or something.

I feel very strongly that overall statistics like that should have essentially no bearing on individual court decisions. If you reach decision X is a rape trial, you should reach that decision in today's society, in one where false accusations happen 1/10th as much, and in one where they happen 10 times as much. Your evidence should come from the trial.

The privacy matter might be legit, the rest literally is, they didn't like the outcome, how it was worded. Even if it is poor taste, asking uncomfortable questions isn't illegal.

I am against the clown court, think it is a bad idea, specifically because of stupidity like this. This is a police matter. Hopefully colleges in the future stop all programs of this nature.

OgreMagi:The article didn't make it clear if she was naming him or not. If she was, but had not gone to the police, then there is a potential for a slander/libel case. In which case telling the truth, no matter how bad it makes the guy look, being an absolute defense.

Yes, that's right. But a lack of a conviction -- or even pressing charges or a police report -- isn't really evidence in the guy's favor.

OgreMagi:I think the university is right in their stance so long as the girl is not following through the proper legal process and getting charges filed. However, if the girl does get charges filed and the university does not give her the proper support, then her claims against the university would be true.

Again, the university's "stance" is not the problem. If it was just that they said "go file a police report or there's nothing we could do", then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Genevieve Marie:But honestly? I still don't see how legal bills and difficulty finding employment even begin to compare in awfulness to having your body forcibly sexually violated. Don't get me wrong, still terrible. Still not more terrible than rape, not even by a long shot.

If I had the choice between being ass-raped in a way that I knew wouldn't cause significant permanent physical damage or spending a decade in prison, I'm going with the ass-raping. That's not even a remotely hard decision for me. And don't think that it wouldn't be traumatic; I have no interest in that.

Maybe you'd choose differently, but I also think that you should understand where we're coming from.

ciberido:This is not the first thread in which ExperianScaresCthulhu has been derpy about rape.

I've been coming to Fark for about 9 1/2 years. (Actually longer, but I registered 9 1/2 years ago.) ExperianScaresCthulhu seriously just won the very impressive honor of, I think, being the first person I've ever put on my ignore list.

Abacus9:Thunderpipes: Genevieve Marie: Popular Opinion: Genevieve Marie: Popular Opinion: how about perjury?

If someone lies under oath, sure. Do you know how rare it is for false accusations to make it to a court room?

how rarely is some innocent person put to death in prison?not that often, but enough that people are against it.

And there are laws against perjury if someone lies under oath and it's proven they did it. You're arguing for laws that already exist in that instance.

But if someone reports rape to the police and the police don't believe them? That doesn't mean it didn't happen and that doesn't mean they should be prosecuted. It just means either the rapist is going to walk, or the innocent man isn't going to be prosecuted and is free to move about his life.

Believe it or not, very rarely does a false rape charge that doesn't end in conviction get so much media attention that the man's life is ruined.

Employer does a Google search.... Sorry Rapey McRapems, we aren't hiring. Does a background check.... Sorry Evil Guy, arrest in Chickville in 2006 for rape. We are not hiring. What, you could not afford a $100,000 legal bill to get things expunged?

Perhaps you missed the part in bold...

No, perhaps you can't read. Media attention has nothing to do with it. Arrest records are always available, and court documents are available, and even unintentional "media coverage" will be there, such as day in court notices. Regardless of how big a case it is, unless a person has tons of cash, getting an arrest of that nature expunged will be very tough.

Thunderpipes:Genevieve Marie: Also, this is a story of exactly what can happen when universities fail to take allegations of stalking and harassment seriously: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Yeardley_Love

That sucks, and yes, that should be taken seriously. A chick just shot a dude, stabbed him 27 times, and slit his throat. She had all kinds of weird emails and text messages. Does that mean all women are suspect?

I could link a bunch of stories about guys in prison for years because of false accusations of rape. Would you agree false accusations need to be taken seriously and the rights of men protected as well?

Sounds like to me, correct me if I am wrong, you think any woman, without evidence, should be able to have physical conditions and other punishments inflicted on a man and the man should have no right to a trial, because men are evil and dangerous. If anyone disagrees, then the DOJ should step in and crush them.

Yea, I'm done responding to you after this because I think I'd rather watch Jennifer Lawrence interviews on YouTube and chat with people whose worldview doesn't suck. But I'll answer your questions here.

No, not all women should be suspect because of the crimes of one woman. Nor should all men be suspect because of the crimes of one man. However? If someone reports stalking and harassment from a former boyfriend to a university authority (or if it happens in reverse, which is rare but has happened) the university has an obligation to try and keep the student safe. Is it inconvenient for the young man to have to change dorms? Sure, and I'm sorry if that happens to an innocent person. Is it inconvenient for the young man to have his class schedule arranged to keep him away from the woman who has accused him of stalking? Sure, and once again, if that happens to an innocent guy that sucks and I sympathize.

But do these inconveniences pale in comparison to what can happen when people report stalking and nothing is done to try and protect them? Absolutely. And yes, I would rather a hundred students have to deal with switching dorms and rearranging their schedules than see one student murdered. I don't think any reasonable person would disagree.

And as I've said before- filing false charges IS NOT THE SAME THING as "false accusations". I think perjury should be prosecuted, absolutely. I don't think a woman writing a blog post, or telling her friends or her peers that she was raped violates anyone else's civil rights. Once more with feeling: no one has an inalienable right to a good reputation.

Now- that's a terrible, hideously immoral thing to do to someone if the accusation is false. BUT ONCE MORE WITH FEELING: that is relatively rare. Believe it or not, most women don't like to be called psycho biatch liars out to smear a good man's name for shiats and giggles- and that's what most rape victims go through, even when the accusations are true, which they are most of the time.

And the DOJ? Is not going to step in and crush this young man. He is actually totally immaterial to this case. This case is about how the university handled sexual assault claims in this case and in the case of 64 other victims who all have support of a former assistant dean who resigned because of the way these people were treated.

"Engaging in conduct, or inciting others to engage in conduct thatimproperly restrains freedom of movement, speech, assembly, oraccess to premises or activities by any individual who is a memberof the University community or guest of the University or of anyof its organizations in connection with that individual's performance of legitimate activities or duties within or at theUniversity."

liquidsiphon:Fano: Genevieve Marie: Thunderpipes: When the Duke Lacrosse team is let out of prison?

The Duke Lacrosse team was exonerated, very publicly, and was not sent to prison.

It was also one case. Does it not strike you as odd that it's the only false accuser story people ever bring up?

Not really, because it was a huge, fairly recent case. Also, it took a long time for it to be accepted as a false accuser case. Did Nancy Grace eat a bullet for the time she continued to accuse the students even after it became clear that they did not rape the stripper?Also, you are leaving out the bigger case of say, Tawana Brawley. I do not condone rape, but I also do not condone fake rape allegations. Oh no, that's two high profile cases. I'm sure there are no others.

Fake rape accusations may exist and nobody can determine the absolute number of how many occur, but last I saw one of the most under-reported criminal acts is rape.

Well, the solution for that isn't overconviction, just to make sure you aren't letting any of those under-reported jokers get away with something. I'm sure that's not what you were implying with your post. Let's increase the reports of rape. I'm for that.