March 29, 2010

Nine members of the Christian militia group Hutaree have been indicted on multiple charges involving an alleged plot to attack police, including seditious conspiracy and attempted use of weapons of mass destruction, the U.S. Attorney in Michigan announced this morning.

"Six Michigan residents, along with two residents of Ohio and a resident of Indiana, were indicted by a federal grand jury in Detroit on charges of seditious conspiracy, attempted use of weapons of mass destruction, teaching the use of explosive materials, and possessing a firearm during a crime of violence," according to the government's press release, which you can read in full below.

From the government's own press release:

The indictment further alleges that the Hutaree planned to kill an unidentified member of local law enforcement and then attack the law enforcement officers who gather in Michigan for the funeral. According to the plan, the Hutaree would attack law enforcement vehicles during the funeral procession with Improvised Explosive Devices with Explosively Formed Projectiles, which, according to the indictment, constitute weapons of mass destruction.

Assuming these allegations are true, this is indeed a nefarious plan and it's great that these people were caught. But I must also say that it's interesting to see that Improvised Explosive Devices with Explosively Formed Projectiles, which, according to the indictment are "weapons of mass destruction." That blows a big hole in the notion that there weren't weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.

333 comments:

Ummm... No, it doesn't blow a big hole in the notion that there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Unless, of course, you are being facetious, knowing full well that the government has here made an especially loose and liberal and dramatic and stupid definition of what a WMD is.

Lemmmeeee get this straight. So the new explanation is, we invaded iraq to seize the weapons of mass destruction that hadn't yet been built and deployed by insurgents, the insurgents that didn't coalesce into groups until after we invaded?

This takes "premptive strike" to a whole nother level. Bush was infinitely wise AND psychic.

If everything is a weapon of mass destruction, then nothing is. Historically, the term WMD referred nuclear, chemical or biological weapons designed to inflict mass casualties (as in thousands, tens of thousands, or even millions).

By what passes as the current definition of WMD, Iraq was filled with them.

There were lots of "weapons of mass destruction" in Iraq. Our troops found a whole lot of old chemical stuff and paraphernalia and shells for delivery and what-not.

It just wasn't big new stuff... not active chem production or active nuke facilities. Saddam was doing a smoke and mirror thing to make himself appear to be stronger than the West and those countries who were trying to control him. A psych job.

We also found mass graves... graves of past mass destruction...

And we know that he had in the past used chemical warfare on his own people... which sort of implies that if he wasn't bluffing about having WMDs, that he'd be the sort to go ahead and use them.

Since we didn't find significant new construction some people like to pretend that Saddam wasn't a risk, or that the intel and reports were a lie... a set up.

But a person has to figure... you've got an administration that is able to, in less than a year, orchestrate 9-11... how hard could it have been to "find" a nuke facility? Really?

Alpha, you really need to look at the big picture. I can understand your confusing the Minutemen with terrorists, you are after all, a liberal.

But even you should see that it is not wise to use an article about the Minutemen closing up shop to raise them as an example of right wing extremists. It makes you look like you are frothing over nothing, and it reminded me of when you said that tea partiers were shouting mean things to voters. I watched that video too, and one person made an offhand remark.

I suggest you stop the wild exaggerations if you want to persuade anyone.

That's an awful lot of dangerous-looking wording to describe an amateurish pipe bomb cobbled together by some idiot Yooper out of schedule 40 pipe, Pyrodex, spit, and paranoia.

Gosh, I wonder why they'd want to make these goofballs seem more dangerous than they actually are. And I wonder why these raids went down right now, right at this moment, with media attention focused on those violent right-wing teabaggers.

There were no IEDs in Iraq prior to the invasion. Saddam just used meat grinders on his opponents or other creative methods thought up by Udai.

I am sure this is one of the groups that Janet Napolitano was referring to when she described home grown terrorists. Well if true, good, I am glad they were arrested and hope they get convicted. Just put a similar effort into tracking down Mexican drug cartels who are terrorizing the boarder, Muslim terrorist groups and lone wolfs, and other threats to our country.

"But, as I was about to put a 10mm slug in this pig’s head, the last thing he said was [mimics squealing pig], which is pig for “where is my healthcare?” They’re pigs Neal. We gotta kill the pig. And, in November we gotta vote the pigs out of office, because this is a redistribution of wealth. This is the Communist-Mao-Che agenda of the Communist-Mao-Che fans in the White House. They’re pigs Neal!"

The right wing violence has been growing and growing. The McVeigh wing of the Republican Party is growing and growing.

As for the Michigan thing... it's morons, completely, using the term WMD to mean an explosion meant to kill a number of people at the same time. Weapons of mass destruction are nuclear, chemical or biological.

And anyone who thinks that Althouse wasn't pointing out the absurdity of using that term by comparing it to Iraq is firmly in that club of morons.

There is something here that does not seem right. These types of groups are more supportive of their local cops than the average individual. If they had a beef with the Feds, they would take their bombs to Washington. Remember the junk we were told about Waco and Ruby Ridge.

As to weapons of mass distruction, in Iraq, even Saddam thought they were there. If the leader of a country is convienced of the existance of the weapons, then why shouldn't we? Besides, I have no problem with invading the country to get the oil and destablize the region.

Here it comes. The US Government is now joining in with the Media's slander as sub-humans of whomever is not in agreement with the ruling collective's exercise of unconsitutional powers. But after the next election, just wait until theys tries to turn their heads. It's the white women like Sarah Palin that will overwhelm the Fifth columnists.

Conservatives have fragile minds so when they use words like Obama uses it's *different*. .

I actually thought I was agreeing with you in referring to these Hutaree people. I guess you won't have that no way no how.

And this event causes so many to show their true racist and anti-democratic colors:

traditionalguy rants racist: Here it comes. The US Government is now joining in with the Media's slander as sub-humans of whomever is not in agreement with the ruling collective's exercise of unconsitutional powers. But after the next election, just wait until theys tries to turn their heads. It's the white women like Sarah Palin that will overwhelm the Fifth columnists. .

Wait, wait, don't tell me. The only wrong thing about racism is when someone points it out!

If these people are actual criminals, then they should certainly be prosecuted.

But I haven't read anything about them actually, you know, ever DOING anything. They're apparently just a group of pitiful paranoid twits who liked to picture themselves as some sort of resistance, and "train" in the techniques that would someday be necessary.

Which is sort of sad and potentially dangerous (mostly to themselves); but the last time I checked, not illegal.

I'm sure that they'll be arraigned on some sort of (second-amendment-defying) weapons charges, and I'm sure that the press will describe their illegal sawed-off shotgun as an "assault weapon" and their few cases of 5.56 ammo as a "huge weapons cache capable of killing thousands".

There are a lot of criminals out there who have actually killed someone who should probably have been given slightly higher priority than these clowns. But these clowns fit the daily narrative.

"Six Michigan residents, along with two residents of Ohio and a resident of Indiana, were indicted by a federal grand jury in Detroit on charges of seditious conspiracy, attempted use of weapons of mass destruction, teaching the use of explosive materials, and possessing a firearm during a crime of violence,"

This description of WMD is this indictment has been in federal law for some time. That said, the left would never had recognized anything less than a shiny nuclear missile pointed directly at the USA as WMD in Iraq. No amount of precursor chemicals for chem warfare, yellow cake, etc. would have ever met their standards.

That said again, it seems there was some troll bait in the Professor's last sentence which worked quite well.

WMD do not include IED's with explosively formed projectiles. In fact, including biological and chemical weapons into the same category as nuclear weapons by calling them WMD was itself a pretty weak association.

Sounds like too many politicians or poliitcal wannabes are involved here.

Certainly these people needed to have plans such as this thwarted if they were real, but to call the method WMD is absurd.

"I actually thought I was agreeing with you in referring to these Hutaree people. I guess you won't have that no way no how."

Really?

After a mini-rant about violent "punch them back twice as hard" language from "Republicans" and your sad, concerned, assertion that you've been linking to "right wing" violence, and then you say it preys on weak minds?

This is agreement? This is some sort of "yeah, sure, obviously these guys are wack jobs?"

Liberals are supposed to be better at interpersonal stuff than this. What's wrong with you?

Hate to say it, but I think Ann is off the map on this one. Synova has the right take on it. Given that there's plenty of evidence the Russians trucked all that stuff into Syria just before the shooting started, it can be argued forever. Colin Powell and Holbrooke were the ones who thought the case for WMDs was the strongest, so I wonder why all our resident Alinskyites are crawling out of the woodwork today without mentioning them.

I know!! Criticizing Colin Powell would be RAACIIST.

AJ Lynch said...

They will do a little more jail time than Bill Ayers and they will be banned for life from working as a law professor unlike Bernadine Dohrn.

Don't forget Ayers is now a "distinguished educator" and a graduate of the Columbia University School of Education, whic has given us the public school system we've had the last twenty years or so.

But your point is well-taken. Take away the religious component and they sound a lot like The Weathermen. Especially their preferred weapon. Anybody remember Fort Dix?

And, in case Alpha missed the bulletin, Conservatives did not rally round his terrorist attack, but were repelled by it. Alpha and garage trying to use Uncle Saul's rule of making the other side live up to it's rules by castigating people for not condemning crimes they never heard of.

As christians we all are a part of the Souls of the Body of Christ, the one true church of Christ. Not any specific man made building or any man controlled organization. This is the belief of the Hutaree soldier, as should the belief of all followers in Christ be.

We believe that one day, as prophecy says, there will be an Anti-Christ. All christians must know this and prepare, just as Christ commanded. Luke 22:35-37, And He said to them, “When I sent you without money bag, knapsack, and sandals, did you lack anything?” So they said, “Nothing.” 36, Then he said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one. 37, “For I say to you that this which is written must be accomplished in me: ‘And He was numbered with transgressors,’ For the things concerning Me have an end.” This clearly states the reason for the training and preparation of the Hutaree.

Jesus wanted us to be ready to defend ourselves using the sword and stay alive using equipment. The only thing on earth to save the testimony and those who follow it, are the members of the testimony, til the return of Christ in the clouds. We, the Hutaree, are prepared to defend all those who belong to Christ and save those who aren’t. We will still spread the word, and fight to keep it, up to the time of the great coming.

Being Hutaree is to stay the Testimony of Christ alive, and follow a motto, John15:13, “Greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.” We are hoping that through this website we can reach out to those who have not the word of God and those who are lost in there ideas of Christ. Many of the things Christ said would happen have happened and some things are still in the works of happening.

We all must know that we all carry a cross and a soldiers cross is just as heavy as any other. Just as Jesus did we must also carry our cross to our destination our life abounds us to. All people are givin a destination by God’s will and have to continue there walk to there own golgotha. But many people, even christians don’t agree with the things we do but all we have to say is, we will not argue over the Bible, read it for what it is. We believe only what the Bible says and not on only philosophy, as many christians of this day do. Christ is our king of kings and top general of all things, for we are not of this world but we live in it.

The Hutaree will one day see its enemy and meet him on the battlefield if so God wills it. We will reach out to those who are yet blind in the last days of the kingdoms of men and bring them to life in Christ. Daniel 11:32-35, “Those who do wickedly against the covenant he shall corrupt with flattery; but the people who know their God shall be strong, and carry out great exploits. 33, “And those of the people who understand shall instruct many; yet for many days they shall fall by sword and flame, by captivity and plundering. 34, “Now when they fall, they shall be aided with a little help; but many shall join them by intrigue. 35 “And some of those of understanding shall fall, to refine them, purify them, and make them white, until the time of the end; because it is still for the appointed time.”

I think it's pretty clear this is a separatist group. While Fundamentalist can probably be used in a pejorative sense, the trouble with using it in this context is that the pejorative and historical meanings are too mixed together. Fundamentalist in a historical sense means something specific in Christian studies--holding onto the "Fundamentals" of the Christian faith, as defined in the set of essays written by Princeton professors and others collected in The Fundamentals.

These people appear to be rather theologically distinct and condemning the rest of the church as falling a false theology. So, they are "fundamentalists" as the term is applied widely as meaning, essentially, religious extremists. But they are not linked to historic or even contemporary fundamentalism as it's more accurately applied.

And they certainly are not related to contemporary Evangelicalism which the ignorant and the malicious like to describe as fundamentalist.

And if anyone wants to talk about WMD in Iraq, I'll tell you that if you include biological and chemical weapons in the definition of WMD (which is sadly considered correct) then of course we found them there. There was no end of the old bio and chem artillery shells that were there in all their old ammo storage areas.

The thing is that such weapons are terrible but at nowhere near the same level as nuclear weapons.

"WMD do not include IED's with explosively formed projectiles. In fact, including biological and chemical weapons into the same category as nuclear weapons by calling them WMD was itself a pretty weak association.

Sounds like too many politicians or poliitcal wannabes are involved here.

Certainly these people needed to have plans such as this thwarted if they were real, but to call the method WMD is absurd."

While I agree that a IED is not WMD as most people understand it, a chemical weapon that could sicken and/or kill thousands and a biological weapon that could sicken and/or kill tens to hundreds of thousands over time certainly meets that description.

Kill the pig? Hey Alpha, you cute little purple pooch; Nugent was only parodying your people's phrase. Kill the pig(s) came out of the left whacko movement- Ayers, Dohrn, Bobby Rush, the criminals who committed the perfect crimes.

If you do not believe me, ask Althouse. We were around during those times.

Ah, yes, the memories. leftist terrorists making bombs in basements, blowing them selves up. Placing bombs at U of Mich., killing an innocent researcher, smashing windows during protests, spitting on the police, throwing urine and feces, bricks and bottles.

Rioting in the streets. Advocating death and destruction. Terrorist and assassination plots abounding. Alliances with European and Palestinian terrorists.

Yes, the 1960s and 70s, when the peace movement left went to war. Hee, hee, hee, you hypocrite.

They are fundamentalists like Fred Phelps Family and Westboro Church are "fundamentalists."

Now. What was AL saying about Bill Ayers and Dohern?

(And Paddy -- how come a Catholic is so well versed about the Princeton episode? I know you've been a theology student, but that seems like a bump in the road that nost Protestants don't know about ....)

You keep trying to do that "squirrel!" thing and say, "Hey, look over there!"

Bill Ayers. Same song different ideology.

Just say it.

Just say that Bill Ayers should be behind bars and should not be teaching at University... that what he did was wrong and that he should never have gotten off and barring a public conversion and repentance he is still the same violent wack-job he ever was.

Or else say that these new "terrorists" with their bomb plot are no big deal at all and certainly not a threat and we shouldn't worry about them *teaching*.

People didn't stock up on ammo when Micheal Steele or Condi Rice or Colin Powell were put into positions of power.

The only reason you are fabricating all these incidents of right-wing violence is so that you can justify the violence you intend to commit. We know how your feeble mind works. Get some help. Because you're too stupid to pull it off.

"But I must also say that it's interesting to see that Improvised Explosive Devices with Explosively Formed Projectiles, which, according to the indictment are "weapons of mass destruction." That blows a big hole in the notion that there weren't weapons of mass destruction in Iraq."

Not in the least. It demonstrates with chilling clarity how easily the government redefines terms to serve its purposes, (as when two people or more planning a public protest may be charged with "racketeering" under elastic use of the RICO statutes).

For the record, I never said that. I said efforts to play "I'm rubber and you're glue" with this thing be comparing it to Ayers are wrong on the facts.

These people were making plans to commit mass murder. Ayers did not make plans to commit mass murder, nor did he claim to be acting on God's behalf, to my knowledge.

Why you seek to trivialize conspiracy to commit mass murder, Synova, is a question you may want to reflect on. --------------And I want to preserve this defense of racism by Pastafarian:Alpha, you're going to have to help me out here. I'm stupid. Where's the racism in either of those comments? I see a mention of race.

Does that now qualify as racism? Any mention of race, by someone of the wrong race? .

But Kirk, if I remember correctly, that group of miscreants possessed several machine guns.

Of course, they were ancient semi-functioning water-cooled Brownings from WWI, and their owners were collectors of such antique weapons, and had all the necessary licenses...but still, they're AUTOMATIC weapons.

Thank goodness for the BATF, they really saved us from a massacre there.

@AlphaLiberal, who finally admitted:"These guys were planning on murdering police. Ayers and the Weathermen, to their discredit and shame, planned on destroying property and fucked up and killed an innocent person."

So you admit that Barack Obama's friend is a domestic terrorist who killed innocent people to advance his radical ideology?

You admit that the Weathermen actually committed their acts. That they were not just planning terrorism, but actually executed their plans and actually did generate a body count.

You admit these things, finally, do you Alpha?

Obama's friend, the domestic terrorist Bill Ayers, killed an innocent people with their terrorist bombs, according to AlphaLiberal.

It appears that the Obama administration has captured eight suspected terrorists, and prevented a deadly attack. Putting aside whether the right would give the administration credit for stopping terrorism before it happens, will we have to endure the same inane questions from the usual suspects, or do those rules not apply when the accused are white Christians? .

Good job by the Obama Administration in capturing these terrorists before they could kill.

Do you all support waterboarding them to find other such terrorists plots before time runs out?

@AlphaLiberal,who wrote: "A Philadelphia Democrat has been charged with threatening to murder Rep. Eric Cantor and his family. Cantor is a Republican. The 33-year-old - Norman Leboon - made the threats in a YouTube video. The video has since been taken down, but FBI agents included a transcript of the threat in a sworn affidavit."

Oh wait no ... it wasn't AlphaLibera who revealed this actual arrest of Democrat Party terrorists.

He can't be bothered to report those facts when Democrats are arrested for video threats that aren't third-party hearsay.

Alpha Liberal...Please do not become too offended by my mentioning that Sarah Palin is a white woman.Calm down. She wont re-establish Jim Crow laws. She will just avoid the automatic presumption from Progressives and the Media that white men are angry rascists who are too blind to see all the good in the other ethnic groups like Hispanic, Asian and African Americans. There is good and bad in all ethnic groups. The labeling of white men as the eternal enemy was not my idea. It was and is your only idea.

"Do you all support waterboarding them to find other such terrorists plots before time runs out?"

Barack Obama doesn't that's for sure. But he does support murdering them from 20,000 feet with a drone flown safely from Florida, even if that means taking out innocent women and children bystanders as collateral damage.

"I missed that part of the indictment, where these Yooper brain-doners had some sort of Dr. Evil laboratory in their bunker, and they were close to perfecting their genetically-engineered biological weapon."

My comment about chem-bio weapons had to do with a comparison to nuclear weapons, not anything specific to this group under discussion. Chem-bio weapons in general, whether they kill a hundred or ten thousand, are in my mind WMD thus my statement that not every WMD results in a mushroom cloud.

I specifically said that IEDs do not fit the normally understood definition of WMD, although they do fit the long-standing definition in federal criminal law. I also think any comparison between the WMD we were looking for in Iraq and normal IEDs is silly. Then again, I think the Professor was just laying some troll-bait in her post and is now sitting back and enjoying the show (I know I would be).

Finally, it doesn't take some "Yooper brain-doners" to make a weapon that does indeed cause mass destruction. Timothy McVeigh is one example.

While we're on the subject, it should be noted that the FBI nabbed another Democrat Party terrorist this morning, arresting Barack Obama donor Norman LeBoon.

Leboon, a Democrat and donor to Barack Obama, was arrested by the FBI after posting video threats to kill a Jew's family, according to a post at TalkingPointsMemo - an internet website frequented by known domestic terrorists.

Will the ACLU find that some element of this case is an infringement on the civil rights of every American? Will Alpha Liberal make an effort to explain how this is just a small group of fanatics and how wrong it would be to stereotype all Christian fundamentalists from this miniscule fringe group?......My own thread: The minority Sunni Muslims in Iraq killed the majority Shiites in a brisk way. Saddam even had a machine--a machine!--for dipping the nether regions of his opponents into acid. I think it is fair to say that the Sunnis were more violent and corrupt in their oppression of the downtrodden than, say, the whites in Rhodesia. The Sunnis, like the whites, are now living in exile. The exiled Sunnis are understood to be victims of American imperialism. The white farmers are understood to have received their comeupance for past sins.....It is said that from the twisted timber of humanity no straight structure was ever built. From the twisted timber of liberalism you couldn't even make the seat to an outhouse toilet.

Hey stop calling these people Yoopers. Yoopers - by definition – live in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan (i.e the U.P.) This folks are from the lower Peninsula (L.P. or Mitten). That makes them – by definition – trolls. Why trolls? Because they live below the bridge (The Mackinac bridge).

Alpha,If you were around during that time, you are about as old as I am. Or you were a small child. Either way, if you are middle aged, you still act like a hormonal teenager on meth. You never evolved into adulthood.

Sinclair Lewis wrote a very good book about this back in 1938 or so. It was about how easy it was for the Fascists and NAZIs to take over the US. (Remember that the founder of Fascism, Mussolini was a hardcore Marxist till the day he died. And than Hitler and his crowd always called themselves "National Socialists" Never NAZIs)

Time for all to read the book again. Download it as a text file and it can be easily read on any phone.

It's the same government that declared that people who read and discuss the writings of the founders of the country are likely to be domestic terrorists. It's the government who told us that veterans returning from Iraq and Afghanistan were likely to be domestic terrorists.

It's the government who told us that Tea Party activists are racists and domestic terrorists.

I believe we will be seeing more and more armed assaults against American citizens, dressed up as anti-terrorism or law enforcement operations.

In fact, including biological and chemical weapons into the same category as nuclear weapons by calling them WMD was itself a pretty weak association.

While I agree that chemical weapons are unlikely to do anything like the degree of damage that nuclear weapons easily could, the same is not true for biological weapons — which, possessing the biological capability of growth, could as an out of control pandemic potentially kill many times the people that even a considerable quantity of nuclear weapons might be capable of.

It's worth noting in this regard that Saddam's Iraq had a fully functioning and completely hidden biological warfare program until the mid-1990's, well after Gulf War I, until two of Saddam's brothers-in-law defected carrying word of the project to the West (Saddam later had the two executed).

Saddam had also secreted away critical parts and documentation for his atomic bomb project, ready to be recovered and used to instantly resume work on nuclear weapons once the post-Gulf War heat was off. This has been documented by Saddam's chief nuclear scientist Mahdi Obeidi in his book The Bomb in My Garden, published since the 2003 invasion.

Moreover, pace AL's claim, George Bush didn't claim that Saddam's nuclear threat was imminent, but rather stated explicitly that it was not imminent, but that action had to be taken before it became so — and I agree.

The FBI has been engaged in this sort of crime busting for a long time. Some groups are left, some are right and this has always been the case. Trying to settle on one group without mentioning the others is another Alinsky dodge.

Alpha's problem is that he has the White House talking points, but all the overt violence is on the Left.

Sorry about that.

PS for Peter V. Alpha claims to have been an undergrad in the 90s, but, yes, he does sound like he's our age.

Perhaps the Feds should investigate Amazon. I just checked and they have dozens of books on explosives. How to make them, how to use them.

Someone mentioned their kids making IED's. My cousin and I, back in the 50's when we were 10-12 years old used to do this too. We would go to the hardware store, buy shotgun shells for the powder. We would then fashion various kinds of bombs. Not terrible explosive but probably enough to legally be WMD/IEDs today.

I still have a scar on my neck as a result of throwing a handful of 22 cal blanks in a fire to see what would happen. It was very exciting but once was enough.

:Ann said: " That blows a big hole in the notion that there weren't weapons of mass destruction in Iraq."

I'm sorry, Ann. It must be very disappointing to see so many here unable to get the obvious sarcasm. Iraq is still so juicy, that some would rather assume you a fool than pass on a chance to argue it again.

Well of course the use of WMD have become rather slippery since they went missing in Iraq and have been conveniently redefined as needed. Much like the phrase "imminent threat' which was not directly used by Bush, but first stated in The National Security Strategy of the United States in 2002,and implied and then stated directly by Ari Fleischer. I suspect Ann is having a little Saussurian fun, but at whose expense?

Julius Hoffman -"Unless, of course, you are being facetious, knowing full well that the government has here made an especially loose and liberal and dramatic and stupid definition of what a WMD is."

I think that is precisely Althouse's point. You have a pack of stupid civilian lawyers attempting to redefine what a WMD is so they can pad their precious criminal justice charges into far more severe terrorism penalties to boost the pressure for a plea bargain to get their precious career enhancing conviction! Without a thought given to how dumb it is to legally equate a bomb with a store of 5 pounds of weaponized anthrax.And what if we one day find someone with 4 NORK nerve gas shells smuggled in when we have "majestic civilian court precedent" that the penalty for someone using a WMD "deadly propane cannister" in a bomb or attempting to construct or deploy a EFP weapon that can take out 6 people is worth 5 years extra jail time...which the lawyers can then argue the nerve gas terrorist should also get, at the max?

Does the military then have the ability to expoit the redefinition these brainless lawyers are making about what a WMD is? If a propane cannister or a EFP is a WMD, then surely any heavy artillery shell or machine gun is. And then the military can used relaxed rules of engagement - and "take out" more people...

Mind you that few of these lawyers have served. The Republican contingent of such clueless ones sought to charge Padilla and his plan to use cooking gas in an apartment as "a plot to use a WMD". The democrat contingent of civilian lawyers likely thinks a M-16 is a WMD.

International military law and NPTs are very clear. There are 3 categories of WMD. Nuclear. Chem. Bio.

They are so deadly and control of them is so critical and keeping a lid on them so growingly difficult that the best thing civilian prosecutors can do is butt out and stop trying to expand the list to far less serious things like jet planes, cooking gas, EFPs, .50 cal rifles. You expand the list and make cooking gas or homemade bombs the legal equivalent of a nuke weapon - you not only look like idiots - you may hurt efforts to check real WMD by expanding the "forbidden list".

"Yes, the 8 kiloton nuke weapon got through, and that is very regrettable. But the focus on homemade bombs got the Heroes of Law Enforcement several major indictments and several convictions so far!

mariner wrote: "I believe we will be seeing more and more armed assaults against American citizens, dressed up as anti-terrorism or law enforcement operations."

I wish I did not share your fear. If that does happen, then more and more citizens will indeed rise up and misbehave. They will continue with peaceful meetings for awhile, but they will eventually return force for force.

I do not think that the folks in Washington understand this. Maybe some of them are being clued in, those getting the actual death threats are I bet. But I worry that things will get ugly and blood will be spilled.

Explosive WMD, oh come on. More like WAD, as in shot by a few White Asses (unintentionally in service to) Democrats.

This small group of civil anarchist "patriots" will be equated with all fundy Christianists, who will be conflated with small government Tea Partiers and, next thing we know, all outspoken opposition to the current government will be thought of as Chechyan terrorism.

And in other news:"A Philadelphia man was charged Monday with threatening to kill House Minority Whip Eric Cantor, a week after the Virginia Republican said his campaign office was shot at in the aftermath of the health care bill passing Congress. ...."

That nutjob on Youtube who threatened Cantor is beautiful. He's actually kind of convincing. It's entirely believable that the 12th Imam would show up on Youtube in his bathrobe looking like he's sporting a hangover and refusing to grant us mercy for taking down his videos. It's got to be in the scripture that this would happen.

That's an awful lot of dangerous-looking wording to describe an amateurish pipe bomb cobbled together by some idiot Yooper out of schedule 40 pipe, Pyrodex, spit, and paranoia.

No, if they were really making EFPs, then this isn't your average pipe bomb. EFPs are relatively difficult to make, since you need a mill. And they're not the right tool for the job, which makes me think this was probably a bunch of guys shooting off their mouths and not a serious plot.

Pastafarian - "I'm sure that they'll be arraigned on some sort of (second-amendment-defying) weapons charges, and I'm sure that the press will describe their illegal sawed-off shotgun as an "assault weapon" and their few cases of 5.56 ammo as a "huge weapons cache capable of killing thousands".

Pathetic, if it wasn't so true.

IN my neck of the woods, some guy beat up his wife in a domestic dispute. (She was turning tricks and had been arrested the day before with other women working for an escort service).

Cops then arrested the guy and reported seizing an "arsenal of weaponry and ammunition". The reporter declared it a "grave menace", and that Deputy Chief Brenda said included "multiple deadly firearms of several makes and "over 1,000 rounds of ammunition". And, had an entire area turned into a place to make homemade ammunition and several containers of explosives related to that were safely removed from the house.."Turned out the guy was a duck hunter, had a .22 and a deer rifle that had been in his family for 3 generations. The "arsenal of ammo"mosty consisted of two 500 round boxes of .22 ammo, supplanted by a few boxes of shotgun shells and ten rounds of 30-30. The "place to make homemade ammunition" stocked with "explosives", that Law Enforcement hero Brenda mentioned was his shotgun reloading kit.

All that came out when he sued to get his weapons back, saying that he did not beat his wife up, but had slapped her once.Then a lawsuit to recover value of 1 shotgun and the deer rifle because they somehow got sold at auction.....

==================Robert Cook - "But I must also say that it's interesting to see that Improvised Explosive Devices with Explosively Formed Projectiles, which, according to the indictment are "weapons of mass destruction." That blows a big hole in the notion that there weren't weapons of mass destruction in Iraq."

Robert responds - "Not in the least. It demonstrates with chilling clarity how easily the government redefines terms to serve its purposes, (as when two people or more planning a public protest may be charged with "racketeering" under elastic use of the RICO statutes)."

Sometimes Mr Cook will post with something of unusually good truth and clarity. This is such a time. It is not a habit with him, but such rare occasions of insight should be appreciated by all.

Many lawyers believe law is not black and white, but a flexible instrument in a good lawyers hands. That the real excitment is in exploring and expanding those gray areas lawyers may flourish at. It means more money and power to them.

Beria - "Just show me the person, Comrade Stalin, and I can find the charge. Our laws are that useful to us."Accounting consultant testifying to Congress during IRS hearings in 1997. "Part of the problem, Mr. Chairman, is the Federal Tax Code has expanded over the years into something that even tax lawyers cannot give a confident answer to. I would say that most of our business clients and I daresay much of the American public can do their tax reporting honestly, and still be fined or prosecuted criminally. If the IRS agent or other members of law enforcement make a fair or purposeful but not so fair because the person is targeted for prosecution for unrelated offenses - different interpretation.

Ann, I defend Bush to this day on the WMDs, but more as an honest mistake than to pretend that IUDs are WMDS.

I think the best way to understand how not finding them still justifies the invasion for WMDS, is this metaphor.

Imagine a man approaches your car and points a gun at you and your family. So when he is distracted, you pull out a gun, too and shoot him deal. The cops come later and they look over his gun and discover that actually it was unloaded. Does that mean you go to jail? Well, Ann certainly knows the answer, but for the benefit of everyone else, the answer is no. You had a reasonable believe that you and your family was in danger, so you were justified in shooting.

In other words, the act is not justified by the truth, but by the facts as best as you could ascertain at the time. And contrary to revisionist history, everyone thought saddam had them. 15 nations of the UN agreed he had them in resolution 1441.

Besides, i said before even a shot was fired, "what was the worst that could happen? we liberate a country and get nothing out of it. i can live with that." and all these years later, you know what? i still can.

btw, that has nothing to do with the legal case, either, which is about 100 times simpler. do you know how the first gulf war ended? with a cease fire agreement. now, i know this is very complicated legal stuff, but try to follow along, my liberal friends. under a cease fire agreement, you must... cease firing. if either side starts to fire, then the agreement is off, and the war is back on. And guess what saddam did? he kept firing? he kept targeting our planes and trying to kill Bush Sr. once he did that, we had ever legal right to go after him. it was just a matter of when we chose to do so.

While I am in no way an expert on explosives I do know enough to understand that you use different bombs to achieve different things.

Nail bombs contain shrapnel and are designed to kill and maim; they do not do much damage to property (relatively speaking). In other words they are designed to be used against people.

Now let us look at the facts:

-Ayers' group built a bomb primarily designed to maim and kill.-They planned to use it during a social event in which officers, their wives/girlfriends, and the staff running the event would all be in close quarters and not spread out.

You either have to be stupid or lying if you claim that they only wanted to harm property.

The Queen - "But I must also say that it's interesting to see that Improvised Explosive Devices with Explosively Formed Projectiles, which, according to the indictment are "weapons of mass destruction." That blows a big hole in the notion that there weren't weapons of mass destruction in Iraq."

Good lord...is there anything you or the other wing nuts here won't throw out there to muddy the waters of common sense?

First of all, they didn't find squat in Iraq, including any weapons that were remotely resembling WMD..."as represented by the Bush administration." Or don't you remember the bullshit claims of chemical wagons or huge quantities of Anthrax or aluminum tubes designed for the production of nuclear missiles?

But just for the hell of it, what would you or any of the other wing nuts here call a "Explosively Formed Projectile," filled with a deadly chemical, that was fired into an airport terminal like LAX or O'Hare?

Would that be massive enough for you?

Your comment is just the standard right wing drivel your fat radio friend loves to throw out there to stir up the mini-minds of the tea bagger crowd.

"Ayers and Dohrn were credibly accused, in classified testimony before a Senate subcommittee in 1974, of involvement in the murder of a police officer in San Francisco, as well as an attempted (and unsuccessful) anti-personnel bombing in Detroit."

"Ayers and Dohrn were never prosecuted for their alleged involvement in Weatherman terrorism because of government misconduct in gathering evidence against them. But Ayers has freely admitted to involvement in Weatherman bomb plots, and he has said he does not regret planting bombs. Ayers has defended his actions, arguing, 'The reason we weren’t terrorists is that we did not commit random acts of terror against people.'"

Please note that since the actions planned were not "random acts" therefore they were not "terrorism."

Mmm. Is there any evidence that the flying of the planes into the WTC and the Pentagon were "random" acts?

First of all, they didn't find squat in Iraq, including any weapons that were remotely resembling WMD..."as represented by the Bush administration." Or don't you remember the bullshit claims of chemical wagons or huge quantities of Anthrax or aluminum tubes designed for the production of nuclear missiles?

Of course those several hundred chemical weapons were absolutely NOTHING, please move on...

You do remember that WMD's were only ONE reason for the war, right? Civil rights violations and non-compliance with the UN resolutions were also reasons?

And that folks such as Hillary Clinton, Bill Clinton, AlGore, and John Kerry, a veteran of Vietnam, IIRC, ALL claimed that Saddam had WMD's...right? From 1998 until 2002, LONG BEFORE Chimpy McBusHitler LIHOP'd/MIHOP'd 9/11 to leverage American Empire into the Muslim World.

Joe, anybody who is still defending out invasion of Iraq, based on WMD is an uneducated, uninformed dolt.

And the "several hundred chemical weapons" you mention were found in Iraq in the aftermath of the 2003 invasion is a crock.

NOTE:

Document 39: Statement by David Kay on the Interim Progress Report of the Iraq Survey Group (ISG) before the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, the House Committee on Appropriations, Subcommittee on Defense, and the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, October 2, 2003. Unclassified.

And please...the ridiculous notion that George W. Bush (the anti-nation builder), went into Iraq because he just wanted to help those poor people out...is just that...ridiculous.

*Oh, and anybody who's taken the time to read anything objective about the skewed intelligence Bush used to sell everybody on the fiasco he created knows it was created by the neocons (ever hear of "Curveball?) and then dished out to make Americans believe the lies that got us into the mess.

Ask Colin Powell if he still believes in that Anthrax crap he was instrumental in spoon feeding the world.

The Queen - "But I must also say that it's interesting to see that Improvised Explosive Devices with Explosively Formed Projectiles, which, according to the indictment are "weapons of mass destruction." That blows a big hole in the notion that there weren't weapons of mass destruction in Iraq."

Good lord...is there anything you or the other wing nuts here won't throw out there to muddy the waters of common sense?

I hate to tell you, but, as far as the indictment is concerned, Mrs. Meade was being droll. She was criticizing it. It appears to have gone over your head.

If you want to argue Iraq, then we have to haul in your boy, William Jefferson Blyth III, and his CIA director. You remember Operation Desert Fox, don't you? The one that was supposed to "degrade" Saddam's capacity to make WMDs.

Joe, anybody who is still defending out invasion of Iraq, based on WMD is an uneducated, uninformed dolt.

So there WEREN'T WMD's found?

And pleazse note I didn't base my support wholly on WMD's as neither did the POTUS nor the COngress, but I do note that many Progressive Icons, AlGore and J F Kerry all believed that Saddam possessed WMD's...and it wasn't just Chimpy McBusHitler, was it? Or even his Administration?

Joe - drag your head out of your ass and try reading something before posting inane comments about the WMD that were discovered in Iraq after the 2003 invasion.

For a change...

Once again:

Document 39: Statement by David Kay on the Interim Progress Report of the Iraq Survey Group (ISG) before the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, the House Committee on Appropriations, Subcommittee on Defense, and the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, October 2, 2003. Unclassified.

Hey Jeremy please note AlGore in 2002 and 1998, or John F Kerry in 1998, or Bill Clinton in 1998...get back to me.

Also please examine the AUMF and note that WMD's were only ONE set of reasons, UN non-compliance and Human RIghts Violations also figured intot he mix...

Drag your head out of YOUR @rse and note the First Gulf War, waged by Iraq v. Iran, and the SECOND Gulf War waged by Iraq v. Kuwayt, and the actions of the Iraqi Gov't in Kurdistan and Shi'i Iraq, during the First, Second, and the aftermath of the Second Gulf Wars.

All of which provided cause for war. now you might not want to discuss them, because that takes away from the spittle-flecked hatred of Boooosh, but they remain nonetheless, within the AUMF.

If hadn't know you weren't such a strong supporter of Iraq War, I would have assumed you were joking. By your definition, every country in the world has "weapons of mass destruction" but I don't think that justifies invading and installing new regimes in any country we choose.

And please, I don't need the blather relating to anything anybody "thought" they had or how wonderful Bush really was...just tell me when and where the WMD destruction you claim were found...were found.

I'm not a lawyer, but if Ayers indeed murdered somebody, why aren't they dragging him into court right now and trying him for the crime?

Wikipedia: “Due to the illegal tactics of FBI agents involved with the program, government attorneys requested all weapons- and bomb-related charges be dropped against the Weather Underground, including charges against Ayers.”

Document 39: Statement by David Kay on the Interim Progress Report of the Iraq Survey Group (ISG) before the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, the House Committee on Appropriations, Subcommittee on Defense, and the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, October 2, 2003. Unclassified.

The lawmakers pointed to an unclassified summary from a report by the National Ground Intelligence Center regarding 500 chemical munitions shells that had been buried near the Iranian border, and then long forgotten, by Iraqi troops during their eight-year war with Iran, which ended in 1988.

The U.S. military announced in 2004 in Iraq that several crates of the old shells had been uncovered and that they contained a blister agent that was no longer active. Neither the military nor the White House nor the CIA considered the shells to be evidence of what was alleged by the Bush administration to be a current Iraqi program to make chemical, biological and nuclear weapons.

Clever, but stupid, all at once. As a lawyer, do you really assume that just because so prosecutor has charged IED's as statutory weapons of mass destruction that means that they such are within the meaning of the statute? As a citizen. would the fact that IED's fit a statutory definition of WMD and that Iraq had or could make them be enough to justify a wildly costly (in blood, treasure and internatonal standng)adventure like the invasion of Irag if Iraq had no nuclear capacity and no capacity to deploy major biological agents--as was in fact the case? The "big hole" if any is in your logic.

In the aftermath of Operation Iraqi Freedom, coalition forces failed to uncover production facilities for, or stocks of, weapons of mass destruction." Which may or may not be true...but does not bear on the EXISTENCE of WMD's in Iraq. Which ALSO true....

Please read your OWN eveidnece with a view towrds reading comprehension and see what it SYAS, not what you THINK it says.

And still no discussion of the UN Resolutions made in 1991/92 and the later ones....or the Human Rights Violations cited by the AUMF.

Nor a discussion of AlGore or Clinton in 1998...

Now Cookie doesn't have to do this, he opposed(s) the War(s) in Iraq, 1998, 2003, and on....he gets a pass on the silliness, because, though he's WRONG, he's at least consistent, unlike say you.

As a citizen. would the fact that IED's fit a statutory definition of WMD and that Iraq had or could make them be enough to justify a wildly costly (in blood, treasure and internatonal standng)adventure like the invasion of Irag if Iraq had no nuclear capacity and no capacity to deploy major biological agents--as was in fact the case? The "big hole" if any is in your logic. or the bombing of the country in 1998? To degrade these "capabilities?" It's a vital question to determine if you're merely a Leftwing Hack or at dedicated Leftwinger, who doesn't mind a little genocide.

Also from Wikipedia: "Some media reports and political critics have suggested that Ayers, Dohrn or the Weathermen were connected to the fatal 1970 San Francisco Police Department Park Station bombing but neither Ayers nor anyone else has been charged or convicted of this crime."

Also from Wikipedia: "Some media reports and political critics have suggested that Ayers, Dohrn or the Weathermen were connected to the fatal 1970 San Francisco Police Department Park Station bombing but neither Ayers nor anyone else has been charged or convicted of this crime."

Btw, we did find some WMDS. we found 500 shells of chemical weapons. not nearly as much as advertised, but there is that.

we also found yellow cake in a secret facility just below the tigris river.

which is not to say bush wasn't wrong, but wrong and lying are two different words. reread 1441. 15 nations of the security counsel, including syria, china and russia, all agreed that iraq had wmds.

Bush was mistaken, but not lying. And i would rather him mistakenly believe someone has wmds, and knock down a dictator who was only trying to kill our pilots and ex-presidents, than mistakenly believe he was not, and wake up with a nasty surprise.

on bush's watch we liberated 23 million people on a mistaken belief that their ex-dictator had wmds.

“Wildly costly”? The Iraq war has cost fewer casualties than almost war against a significant opponent in American history. Compare with Vietnam: 58,000 U.S. soldier deaths. Korea: 36,000. World War II: 416,000. The Civil War: three-quarters of a million soldiers died (out of a population one-tenth the present size). It's only because so many folks today have no sense of history that they think fewer than 4,000 troops killed over seven years of battle is enormous.