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Then yuri must be suffering an extreme case of Misaimed Fandom, because I know far more lesbians who read yaoi than I know ones who read yuri, and every yuri convention I've ever heard of has been packed with smelly basement otaku neckbeards.

And now I'm being dragged going to a yaoi convention in October even though I don't have the slightest interest in yaoi, simply because I know there might actually be other girls there...

Maybe I should just give up on trying to make friends with other anime and manga fans...

Firstly, I had already read the English wiki page. Secondly, did you read what I posted?

The reason I regard it as an East/West divide is because I went to a convention in Australia last year where they still predominantly used the term 'yaoi' rather than 'BL'. Most of the people I know who are actually aware of the term 'BL' are Asian or of Asian descent, and the main term used on the June manga website is still 'yaoi'.

Did you read the English wiki page properly?

Spoiler for tl;dr:

Whether created by male or female authors, BL is, by definition, created for women/female audiences. There are guys who read BL works, but they are not the target audience. Titles about homosexuality that are created for men (usually gay men) fall under the genre known as bara, as the wiki clearly points out. And guess what? It's listed under media aimed at homosexual audiences on the Japanese wiki.

I also never said that all yuri was aimed at female audiences: note the word "most"?

Finally, remember what I said about how the terms used in the West are confusing? I have already said that some BL works are also aimed at josei audiences, but really, most of them aren't and appear in manga magazines that are specifically aimed at BL audiences. Granted, most people who buy these magazines are probably older teenagers/women, but it IS a separate genre from 'ladies comics' or 'josei manga'. And there are actually a few other features to keep in mind for 'ladies comics' / 'josei manga' - I never said 'fantasizing' could never be a feature, but titles published in these magazines do tend to be more 'realistic/mature'.

Basically, in terms of manga, yaoi/BL is predominantly aimed at female audiences (specifically, at fujoshi), and so is yuri, though a small proportion of yuri is aimed at male audiences.

Yes, I did. But your previous post stated that BL encompasses Yaoi and shōnen-ai, even though the latter is a Western convention which you said wasn't used by the Japanese. I'm also aware that Yaoi is generally for females and never said otherwise (disliking the facts and denying them are separate), while you said that most Yuri is for females and not shōnen or seinen, which contradicts the existence of Yuri Hime S. And all I said about Josei was that it is merely a demographic; age and maturity are not mutually inclusive and I never said Josei manga did not have a tendency to be more mature. Finally, I find it intriguing that you bring up a personal experience for the East/West divide while having also criticized the anecdotes of others.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

That said, a lot of Otaku Bait "harem" shows would have similiarly narrow appeal, however I'd say the male Otaku demographic is a much more proven spender then the fujioshi side.

Interestingly enough, the sales figures for harem/ecchi shows are actually not that impressive. The highest profits seem to go to shows where the sensuality isn't really all that high, but I still have a hunch that the anime industry is male-centric regardless. Although, the manga side doesn't appear as skewed...

__________________

I want to know more, it's a wild night
let's delve into the dreams
I want to know more, it's a wild ride
so let's have a shocking party
dancing, dancing, don't stop my dancing
dancing, dancing, let me do

Interestingly enough, the sales figures for harem/ecchi shows are actually not that impressive. The highest profits seem to go to shows where the sensuality isn't really all that high, but I still have a hunch that the anime industry is male-centric regardless. Although, the manga side doesn't appear as skewed...

They're certainly not impressive, but they are consistent. A studio can put a minimum of effort into them, and have a fair certainty of getting a return. I don't think that level of consistency exists in the female market, furthermore, the anime side of things definitely has more male consumers then manga.

Yes, I did. But your previous post stated that BL encompasses Yaoi and shōnen-ai, even though the latter is a Western convention which you said wasn't used by the Japanese.

I was just explaining the terms being used in the East vs. those used in the West. Perhaps I should have said something along the lines of "'BL' is the term used in Japan for what most Western fans know as yaoi/shounen ai" to be clearer?

(Rhetorical question, you don't need to answer if you don't want to).

Spoiler for continuing...probably tl;dr for everyone else:

=====

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akito_Kinomoto

I'm also aware that Yaoi is generally for females and never said otherwise (disliking the facts and denying them are separate), while you said that most Yuri is for females and not shōnen or seinen, which contradicts the existence of Yuri Hime S.

My point was actually this: you said that "there is yaoi that targets male audiences". There isn't. It's a completely different genre.

And please tell me, how does saying something along the lines of "most yuri is written for women" contradict the fact that there is yuri written for male audiences?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akito_Kinomoto

And all I said about Josei was that it is merely a demographic; age and maturity are not mutually inclusive

"Josei" isn't a demographic. I'll admit I haven't been very clear on this idea, but the "Josei (manga) target audience" is a demographic, whilst "josei manga" is a category/genre. And where did I ever say that age and maturity were mutually exclusive?

But why in the world are we debating what the target audience for josei manga is? That wasn't the important point: the point I was trying to bring up to Solace and anyone else comparing BL/yaoi with josei manga is that most BL stuff is too romantic and cliched to fit under the characteristics of "josei manga". Which is why I said the following:

Quote:

Originally Posted by karice67

"most yaoi feels like shoujo romance" <= I'd completely agree with that
"most yaoi feels like a josei story" <= completely misleading about both the BL and josei (manga) genres.

=====

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akito_Kinomoto

Finally, I find it intriguing that you bring up a personal experience for the East/West divide while having also criticized the anecdotes of others.

Please tell me, how have I criticised others' anecdotes? I'm trying to correct some misconceptions people have about distinguishing between types of works by explaining the different terms being used and how their usage has varied (and continues to do so) even amongst different groups of English speakers. Let's face it, to answer the questions you posed in your opening post, people should probably be a bit clearer on exactly what it is they're talking about. Unless you don't want proper, well-reasoned answers of course, which is fine by me, since there are probably things I would be better off doing than trying to explain misconceptions that people have about the genres in Japanese media.

You were trying to correct me for something I had already posted (i.e. that 'yaoi' is also known as 'BL' amongst English speakers). In response, I merely brought up my own observations about their usage in the English-speaking fandom to support my argument that 'yaoi' is still the predominant term used in the West. And in the past (not sure about now), there used to be a clearer shounen ai vs. yaoi distinction used in the English-speaking fandom.

=====

And since I went back to the J-wiki to check

Quote:

Originally Posted by Usami_Haru

The word yaoi only refers to works based on already existing works. (NarutoxSasuke doujinishi and such.) while BL is a term that covers all kinds of manga that has boy's love, even if it just subtext.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

errr no... really...

Usami_Haru is actually correct wrt Japan (well, except perhaps for the 'subtext' bit. e.g. Uraboku has plenty of subtext...but it's a fantasy/adventure, not BL). This is one, 'narrow' usage that the term 'yaoi' has taken on in the Japanese fandom. Though it is (apparently) still used by some people as a way of distinguishing between titles with 'no peak, no point, no meaning' and titles that actually do have some substance other than the so-called 'yummy bits'. Most people just stop at 'BL' though, rather than breaking it down into smaller categories.

__________________

You must free yourself from that illusion,
from the illusion that a story must have a beginning and an end.

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- Patrick Stokes

The whole term confusion is based on the Western meaning of the terms "boys' love" and "girls' love," which were adopted by pedophiles and pedophilia apologists. So people in the West (especially America) run away from those terms really fast. It's bad enough that every other evangelical Christian already considers gay people to be child molesters... we don't want them to have any more ammo!

I don't think there's anything wrong in having different genre classifications for manga here compared to Japan. We each come from differing perspectives.

I think it's generally considered (in the west) that Yaoi is explicit BL, and Yuri is explicit GL.

What I'd like to consider more is Yuri. A lot of people here think that Yuri is a more female oriented genre. I've always felt that Yuri (and Girl's Love) is more heavily male. Though it is true the roots of Yuri lie in Shoujo works like Rose of Versailles, I've always thought that the greater part of it these days is aimed at guys. Similiar to how Moe (as a very male thing) also has much of it's roots in Shoujo. But maybe I'm wrong here.

If there is actually "male oriented" and "female oriented" Yuri, what's the main difference between the two?

I don't think there's anything wrong in having different genre classifications for manga here compared to Japan. We each come from differing perspectives.

I think it's generally considered (in the west) that Yaoi is explicit BL, and Yuri is explicit GL.

What I'd like to consider more is Yuri. A lot of people here think that Yuri is a more female oriented genre. I've always felt that Yuri (and Girl's Love) is more heavily male. Though it is true the roots of Yuri lie in Shoujo works like Rose of Versailles, I've always thought that the greater part of it these days is aimed at guys. Similiar to how Moe (as a very male thing) also has much of it's roots in Shoujo. But maybe I'm wrong here.

If there is actually "male oriented" and "female oriented" Yuri, what's the main difference between the two?

It's not as straight forward as dividing them into male and female oriented yuri, it also depends on what type of male/female audience it's aimed at.

For example, shoujo magazines with mostly hetero stories (very) occasionally have yuri stories, which are generally notable for one or both of the girls having a troubled childhood and/or a mental illness, and often though not always having a tragic ending. Also, male characters are far more likely to feature as supporting characters than in other types of yuri.

These are different than the kind of stories you'd read in a magazine aimed at lesbian women, or in one targeted specifically at yuri fans.

I think it's generally considered (in the west) that Yaoi is explicit BL, and Yuri is explicit GL.

If you mean 'explicit' as in not 'subtext' within another genre like fantasy/moe, then I agree.

Frankly, I don't really care if people use "yaoi" or "BL", and "shoujo" or "josei" or whatever. Just as long as you are aware of the conventions of such works at least in the Western fandom.

And reading the English wikipedia on these topics has me itching to join up as an editor. (>_>)

Quote:

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

Then yuri must be suffering an extreme case of Misaimed Fandom, because I know far more lesbians who read yaoi than I know ones who read yuri, and every yuri convention I've ever heard of has been packed with smelly basement otaku neckbeards.

I'd hazard a guess they're the fans who like yuri subtext in the shows/manga they consume, and thus read yuri doujinshi based on them?

__________________

You must free yourself from that illusion,
from the illusion that a story must have a beginning and an end.

"No, you are not entitled to your opinion... You are only entitled to what you can argue for.”
- Patrick Stokes

If you mean 'explicit' as in not 'subtext' within another genre like fantasy/moe, then I agree.

Well I don't think another particular genre is necessary, but you're about right. To my mind, BL or GL could be mistaken as just being "very intense friendship", while Yaoi/Yuri actually shows them in love, usually undertaking activities like kissing or sex of some kind. Or even just referring to the fact they're in love with one another.

My point was actually this: you said that "there is yaoi that targets male audiences". There isn't. It's a completely different genre.

And please tell me, how does saying "most yuri is written for women" contradict the fact that there is yuri written for male audiences?

"Josei" isn't a demographic. I'll admit I haven't been very clear on this idea, but the "Josei (manga) target audience" is a demographic, whilst "josei manga" is a category/genre. And where did I ever say that age and maturity were mutually exclusive?

But why in the world are we debating what the target audience for josei manga is? That wasn't the important point: the point I was trying to bring up to Solace and anyone else comparing BL/yaoi with josei manga is that most BL stuff is too romantic and cliched to fit under the characteristics of "josei manga". Which is why I said the following:

=====

Please tell me, how have I criticised others' anecdotes? I'm trying to correct some misconceptions people have about distinguishing between types of works by explaining the different terms being used and how their usage has varied (and continues to do so) even amongst different groups of English speakers. Let's face it, to answer the questions you posed in your opening post, people should probably be a bit clearer on exactly what it is they're talking about. Unless you don't want proper, well-reasoned answers of course, which is fine by me, since there are probably things I would be better off doing than trying to explain misconceptions that people have about the genres in Japanese media.

You were trying to correct me for something I had already posted (i.e. that 'yaoi' is also known as 'BL' amongst English speakers). In response, I merely brought up my own observations about their usage in the English-speaking fandom to support my argument that 'yaoi' is still the predominant term used in the West. And in the past (not sure about now), there used to be a clearer shounen ai vs. yaoi distinction used in the English-speaking fandom.

=====

And since I went back to the J-wiki to check Usami_Haru is actually correct wrt Japan (well, except perhaps for the 'subtext' bit. e.g. Uraboku has plenty of subtext...but it's a fantasy/adventure, not BL). This is one, 'narrow' usage that the term 'yaoi' has taken on in the Japanese fandom. Though it is (apparently) still used by some people as a way of distinguishing between titles with 'no peak, no point, no meaning' and titles that actually do have some substance other than the so-called 'yummy bits'. Most people just stop at 'BL' though, rather than breaking it down into smaller categories.

In the last post from you that I quoted, you said that Yaoi is predominantly aimed at female audiences, and the contradiction on the Yuri side was your comment on it not being shōnen or seinen. And Josei manga merely refers to the demographic; someone could very well be in their late teenage/adult years and have the mindset of a typical nine-year-old, or be a fujoshi. And if BL are too trite to be classified as Josei manga, keep in mind that it--Josei manga--can portray realistic relationships, but it does not always have to be. Finally, your posts in this thread came across to me as being critical; how one words things can make a difference between perceived as civil and not being viewed as such. And in actuality, I've been a yuricon for as long as I've been an otaku, which was part of the reason I made this thread. So I'm trying to put aside definition issues in favor of more general opinions. I did not and do not expect responses from more, er, versed people. In fact...

Quote:

If you mean 'explicit' as in not 'subtext' within another genre like fantasy/moe, then I agree.

Quote:

Well I don't think another particular genre is necessary, but you're about right. To my mind, BL or GL could be mistaken as just being "very intense friendship", while Yaoi/Yuri actually shows them in love, usually undertaking activities like kissing or sex of some kind. Or even just referring to the fact they're in love with one another.

...I actually do try to make that distinction, but I don't imagine others doing so. If I wanted more *AHEM* specialized answers, I would have asked somewhere else.

__________________

I want to know more, it's a wild night
let's delve into the dreams
I want to know more, it's a wild ride
so let's have a shocking party
dancing, dancing, don't stop my dancing
dancing, dancing, let me do

As I said before, "most" does not mean "all".
Although I should definitely have written that "all BL/yaoi works are written for women/female audiences" rather than using "predominantly".

And "Josei manga" does not refer to a demographic (yup, this wiki article needs editing). It's a genre that is meant to appeal to a particular demographic, i.e. girls/women after more intellectually stimulating stories. Doesn't mean that its only readers are women past a certain age, or that all women past a certain age read it, but it does mean that works that are published as "josei manga" have particular characteristics that aren't found in a large proportion of yaoi/BL works.

This is the definition that I'm contesting with you and a few others (I think we all generally agree on what yaoi/BL and yuri are, though possibly not who they're aimed at), because my main interest is actually Josei manga, and the understandings I've seen of the genre is this thread have quite a lot a misperceptions. If you go back to my very first post, that's where I started.

Lastly, if I sound critical, it's probably because I dislike having to repeat myself or point out things I've said previously (e.g. this now being the third time I've pointed out that "most" does not mean "all").

__________________

You must free yourself from that illusion,
from the illusion that a story must have a beginning and an end.

"No, you are not entitled to your opinion... You are only entitled to what you can argue for.”
- Patrick Stokes

And "Josei manga" does not refer to a demographic (yup, this wiki article needs editing). It's a genre that is meant to appeal to a particular demographic, i.e. girls/women after more intellectually stimulating stories. Doesn't mean that its only readers are women past a certain age, or that all women past a certain age read it, but it does mean that works that are published as "josei manga" have particular characteristics that aren't found in a large proportion of yaoi/BL works.

Cool. I've been trying to say that for Josei manga's demographic, and I thought I was communicating that clearly, but I guess not. Still, age and maturity are not mutually inclusive. And by the way, it's generally considered poor form to call certain information from a source as being incorrect when you had no problem using saidsource first. But hey, if one thing is wrong then there's a chance everything else we've discussed is meaningless. Excellent work and sayonora.

__________________

I want to know more, it's a wild night
let's delve into the dreams
I want to know more, it's a wild ride
so let's have a shocking party
dancing, dancing, don't stop my dancing
dancing, dancing, let me do

And by the way, it's generally considered poor form to call certain information from a source as being incorrect when you had no problem using saidsource first. But hey, if one thing is wrong then there's a chance everything else we've discussed is meaningless. Excellent work and sayonora.

So "needs editing" means that the entire article is inaccurate? Ok...

Meaningless? That's up for each person to decide for themselves, isn't it?

But yes, adios. I hope I have at least gotten across the point that most yaoi/BL really doesn't feel like "a Josei story in different packaging" but if anyone wants to continue feeling that way, *shrugs*.

__________________

You must free yourself from that illusion,
from the illusion that a story must have a beginning and an end.

"No, you are not entitled to your opinion... You are only entitled to what you can argue for.”
- Patrick Stokes

Read a yuri manga like Girl Friends and it's hard to see much in the way of exploitation there... except maybe an exploitation of kickbacks for bath and beauty product placement.

Eh, Yuri is less overt, but it might still be exploitation in the way "cute girls doing cute things moe" is exploitation. It's emotional exploitation, though I can see lesbians being far more accepting of Yuri then gays of Yaoi.

You have gotten across the point that you chose to ignore the fact that this thread is asking for people's own thoughts on the subject, focused on the semantics, cherry picked from Wikipedia at your leisure and contradicted yourself several times. In thesetwo posts you refer to Josei as a demographic, but here you refer to it as a subgenre that somewhat overlaps with BL and falls under Shōjo manga. Using Wikipedia, you also said that Yaoi targeted at males is a different genre entirely, but dismissed Wikipedia's entry on Josei as a demographic. Furthermore, you have continuouslydisregarded the fact that age and maturity are not mutually inclusive, via your statements of Josei targeting more mature female audiences and girls/women after more intellectually stimulating stories. Finally, stating that a Wikipedia entry needs to be edited implies that something is incorrect, and now this does not stop anyone from saying that another Wikipedia entry is also in need of editing; I could just as easily look at the information that says that Yaoi targeted at males is a different genre entirely and say that it also needs editing, or the entry on most Yuri being aimed at girls/women as requiring an edit as well. If one piece of information from the source is incorrect, there is nothing retarding the possibility of the other information from the source as being wrong as well; who is to say that most, if not all, of what we have cited is false?

You have also ignored the fact that this thread is asking for people's own thoughts on the subject when you criticized (protip: writing in a larger font size comes across as critical and it is only your second post) the anecdotes of others in favor of pushing the meaning/definition, and then brought in your own personal feelings/experiences: I'd say they're different? The reason I regard it as an East/West divide? I did not know that one who tries to be objective should state anything subjective, nor was I aware that your personal thoughts and observations held more weight than the other people who have posted in this topic. So not only have you contradicted yourself, cherry picked from Wikipedia and "created" the possibility of most, if not all, of the information we have cited as wrong, but have also reprimanded the opinions of others and favored your own viewpoint while also attempting to be factual. Now do you realize what you have done throughout this topic?

__________________

I want to know more, it's a wild night
let's delve into the dreams
I want to know more, it's a wild ride
so let's have a shocking party
dancing, dancing, don't stop my dancing
dancing, dancing, let me do

The only reason why more yaoi mangas were scanlated than yuri ones because yaoi obviously not a popular genre anywhere else. If you go to any DVD stores and asked the clerk who working to find some yaoi DVDs, I don't think he or she know what you are talking about.