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25 Domain Sales $25MM+

I have only sold 35 of my 6500 domains.

Porno.com $8,888,888.88

This was the 4th largest recorded cash domain sale ever!
(Purchased for $42,000 in 1997) It is important to note that this domain had career earnings in excess of $15 Million via pay per click earnings and never had adult content)

989.com $818,181.81 (registered for $100 in 1997)

899.com $801,000 (registered for $100 in 1997)

9595.com $180,000 (registered for $100 in 1998)

Teem.com Total $972.000 after Equity payout

Earlier sales….

Men.com $1,320,000 (bought from 3rd party for $15,000 in 1997)

eBet.com $1,350,000 (registered for $100 in 1997)

Property.com/Properties.com $4MM + Equity Stake
(Bought from 3rd party for $750,000 in 2005)

At first glance you may just laugh when I ask “Do you Know Which Domains in Your Portfolio are Worth $1 Million or More??” That is a VERY serious question. I have made a living off of those that don’t know the answer.

Let me be blunt. Most domainers would not get this one right. The ability to OBJECTIVELY pick the potential million dollar names is what it is all about. It is the #1 factor. It trumps every other.

I guess the point of my writings are that there are plenty of $1M domains out there when you know the elements to look for. When you see it through the eyes of others. When you have the PATIENCE to let the market catch up to what we already forgot.

You can apply that to $100,000 domains as well. Much easier to pick those. They stand out on a list like they were in neon lights. Flashing neon lights.

Folks, we are many years ahead of the masses. For some that causes frustration. For others they just endure day by day as they watch the world around them change and evolve and understand. They all look for what we have but are still putting the puzzle together. For that matter, so are we. But we are a few exits past where they are. And many will leap frog over us. That’s a GREAT thing.
Like I have said this year….the net may have been around for 25 years but this is the first year of the net in terms of the masses. 2010 got their interest. 2011 got them and now they are going to discover what we already have while uncovering things we never thought of. I call that progress. I call that exactly where we should be at this point in the history of the universe. Sprinkle a little luck along the way and don’t second guess what you do. Celebrate it!

I don’t often if ever tell folks I am a Mason. Been one for over 25 years. I don’t think I have ever written about it until today. I have never talked about this before. It was nothing secret but also nothing you speak about either.

I figured with the Internet as it is I would look some info up and see how much was still private. So I feel comfortable discussing it now.

The Mason’s have a long history and many famous members. Free Mason’s have been around since the 17th Century. Some say even before that. Many myths have been spread over the years. They are just that. Myths.

The Lodge I belong to was established in 1795 by Paul Revere. Many of the original members were direct descendants of the Pilgrims.

The interesting thing that the Masons have in common with the Internet is that it was based on your reputation, your character and trustworthiness. Have you ever heard the term “Black Balled”? That was taken from the Mason’s. There were only 2 types of people in the eyes of Mason’s. 100% trustworthy or not.

When you get involved and go through the exercise to become a Mason they have one night in which all the other members of that chapter vote and decide whether you have the qualities needed. They use white balls which means they approve and “Black Balls” if a member does not approve. If just one black ball is cast, the membership is denied. Just one.

So if you had one bad thing happen with just one member, you were rejected. Character and reputation is everything. It’s an ancient thing this “Honor” stuff.

It’s not a religion and there are a lot of misinformation out there. It’s a fraternity. Together they do great things. Charitable ventures and just good stewards of the community. The only requirement is that you believe in God. That is the beginning and the end of religion and the Mason's.

I don’t know if it is very popular today. Are any of you Masons? I bet some of your father's and grandfather's may have been. Maybe that is why I talk about walking west to find the sunrise. Mason's will understand this one.

Happy Easter! Happy Passover! Happy Whatever! At the end of the day, no matter who you are or what you believe, our job is to be the best person we can be and better tomorrow than today.

If you don’t have financial security, you don’t have your health either. Between worrying and maybe not enough cash for a medical emergency, your mortgage, etc. you are at the mercy of outside factors and other forces. So financial security is key.

There are thousands preaching one form of investment or other to protect and grow your assets. Reason being this is the #1 concern in life once you hit a certain stage or are struck with an illness that can take you out of the game. Or maybe a different challenge along the way.

I lived out of a suitcase for years. I could not afford to settle down or stop. I had to keep the sales and dollars coming in to get me to the next place let alone a home. The 1970’s were much worse than current conditions. There was so much less opportunity. Things moved slower.

Others based domain values on PPC and I never bought into that. It was flawed. Now everyone can see why and just how ridiculous that was. Now that did not mean you could not extract valuable data out of those numbers. Just not a way to base value. Guidelines and hints to the future.

I looked at it a bit different. If a domain makes $10 a day, how much would you have to have in the bank to earn $10/day? Whether it be PPC or Lead Gen or Lease or whatever.

$1000? Nope

$5000? Nope

$10,000? Nope

$100,000? Getting Closer

$365,000? BINGO

$365,000 @ 1% is $3650/Year

Sure, things can fluctuate. There are variables. Interest can go to 5%. So divide by 5 = $73,000

So a domain making $10 a day TODAY has a value somewhere between $73,000 and $375,000. Sell for less than that and you left a lot of money on the table.

But wait. That $10/day domain was making $50/day. It may return to those levels. Even exceed those levels. Consistency is key. Jack Rabbit earnings have to be looked at over a 365 day period to figure out a true daily level and that only if you JACK is still earning regularly.

Wait again. New opportunities can come up and make your domain even more valuable. So why sell just because you got an offer? You have the hardest asset in the universe to obtain. A profit making, income producing asset.

Buy income streams not domain names. All income streams are attached to a domain name however all domains are not attached to an income stream.

Yes, I know, there are no more type in domains. Fine. You win. Say that is true. That means the domains WITH type in traffic continue to have great value and I just proved it.

So the point is a type in domain with daily income is the single best investment on the planet today. Why would someone sell an income stream that may last forever? Because he wants to buy something RIGHT NOW. Pay off a note. Buy a toy. He has a “Circumstance”. That’s what makes the world go round. Circumstance. There is no more powerful motivator than circumstance.

Look, we all have varying degrees of portfolios. Junk today could be worth a big bounty tomorrow. So if you believe in something, don’t let it go. But never close your mind and eyes to new information. NEVER!

I am about to give you some.

Domaining is figuring out what OTHERS think and do. How OTHERS behave and what they buy. How OTHERS spend their time if given a choice. It ain’t about you and me, it is about everyone else. We are the only 2 people that really don’t count.

It’s about figuring out what others will do before they even know as things unfold.

THAT my friends is why it is about type in traffic. It was then, it is today and it will be about that tomorrow. That is what to aim for. You want at least 1 OTHER person out of 6 BILLION to think like you do. If not, you, me all of us are off the mark on THAT part of the equation. And I submit that is one hell of an important piece of the puzzle. Regardless of what some continue to doubt or understand and I am going to explain it in just a few paragraphs down.

Now that does not mean it is all about type ins. Most time I don’t care. I don’t care because I already know the numbers to one degree or another. The type in to me is like a validation stamp. Certified. One grade higher.

The next piece and maybe #1 are those that buy a domain that does not pass the radio test. Another CRUCIAL element of any domain name.

You have to aim for 6th Grade easy spelling that is unmistakable if possible.

Brandables are great. I have no problem with taking the biggest risk of all. But it still has to pass those tests described above or in my mind disqualifies that domain and limiting it's potential forever.

Domains are not stone even though they have facets like diamonds because they can sometimes be used in multiple ways. Not stone. They evolve. They age like fine wine. Grapes. They ripen at different stages and points in time. And some are worthless garbage. Pigeon Sh*t.

We are all pruning our holdings to get rid of those domains that serve no purpose or were perishable or that ship just never came in. Edwards2008.com is probably disposable. Lol

I look at a domain at what it could be. How it could be the best use. Who would be best suited to do that in a perfect world?

And the biggie for me, bigger than type ins. Bigger than any other piece of the puzzle. Could I see it advertised on TV, Radio, Billboards, etc? Could I see a campaign based around that domain name? Could what I have on it go viral and then will it be easy to use as a “Word of mouth” medium?

Lastly don’t chase yesterday, chase what will unfold tomorrow. With all the new stuff coming out, new sectors coming to market, new technology being released, there is opportunity for new veins and new sources of traffic. Type ins! Maybe you won’t find an ocean. But you can surely use some rivers and streams and creeks.

Since some consider me the biggest SOB in the Industry I wonder how many other SOB's are out there? My guess is a whole lot. At every level. In every office. In every family. In every situation. Every day. You tend to be an SOB to some when you protect what you love.

So I am happy to announce that the nicest guy in the industry (Mike Berkens) and the biggest SOB in the industry have teamed up to buy SOB.COM. An 'LLL' domain with traffic that means something and was cheap by today's standards at just $45,000 and negotiated by Andrew Rosener of MediaOptions.com who did a great job bagging this asset.

Those $$$ just seem a whole lot safer in domains than in my bank account. In 5 years that money will be worth much less in buying power than it is today while this domain will maintain value and increase with the tide at a bare minimum. That's before it is even activated.

Mike an I have several other domains that we have accumulated over the years. But this one I liked the instant I heard it. So from one SOB to another.....Have a GREAT Day!

Being FIRST to market is a big deal. But it ain’t the whole enchilada. When I look back at things, I was almost never first. Not even in domains. I came in on the 2nd or 3rd stage of this business. They were no longer free and only a fool like me who came in late would pay $100 a pop for these things when virtually nobody was online.

I look back further. The lighting product I marketed was around for 8 YEARS before I saw something unique and marketed differently. It ignited not only that factory, but several others with competing products. When I finally met the guy in Hong Kong, he was amazed at my youth at the time and knew I had made him a very wealthy man.

The Ad Blimps I sold were around for 50 years. I just did something a little different that allowed me to ship customized ones in 24 hours when others were 3 weeks. I copied everything the others did with that one twist. But when folks wanted this item, they wanted it immediately. I figured out the void and became a thorn to the other gys around for a long time.

With my Vanity 800 numbers I literally got in the game at the very end. But it was still life changing and without what I learned there, I may have never known about type ins. See they existed before they existed because human nature is predictable.

Everything I have done was never first. TRAFFIC was just a reinterpretation of other shows I had attended in my life and then just applied a few twists designed to bring an obscure industry to the attention of the universe. To bring like minded folks together where they could recharge and reenergize and see they were not alone. Not only were they not alone, but they were among some of the sharpest anywhere and they deserved a couple days to enjoy the fruits of their labor and grow their business at the same time.

So that brings me to domain development and the net. I am not looking to be first here either. I just want to copy well. That’s it. Let others blaze THAT trail. Then copy what works. I don’t need large market share to be successful. I need 1% from here and there. 5%. It all adds up.

Folks always wanted to know why I did not develop my gaming domains or why I never did a deal with any gaming sites that would pay a bounty or a percentage. In my mind that was simple, it was illegal and why risk everything for a few more dollars. Ain't worth it. Now look at the news.

Same in adult. I don't have to have content to make money. Why have the liability? But that does not mean you can't benefit. The slippery slope in adult comes down to one word and that word is different for everyone. The word, 'Obscene' is why I don't do adult the way most would with my domains. I could have made TENS of millions more but why take the risk?

I mean we are in a time on the Internet that would be like before they discovered the Arch in the real world. Or steel to build skyscrapers. We are little past the stone ages when compared to the real world. We may be entering the time of “Enlightenment” soon. But we are far from there. The caves are still cold and dark. But these companies I have been talking about the last few posts are changing that. We are beginning to realize the power and folks are starting to walk upright.

When I was in Furniture I met the greatest designer that ever lived. True! It was called the Polaroid Camera. Take a picture and duplicate the item. Make it better and cheaper. Deliver it faster and in one piece. That was the design department used by most factories. I am sure it hasn’t changed other than they use an iphone. Now and they can have it copied by the time I would drive back to the factory.

We may not live longer but we can do more in the time we have. I started the journey and there was no 'Express Mail'. No Fed Ex. No Kinkos. No Office Depot. No fax machines. No Computers. Not even Calculators. No Cell Phone. No Cordless Phone. No Speaker Phone. No VCR. No TIVO. No Cable. No Satellite. No Skype. No Internet. No SHIT! And I could go on for another paragraph.

Add to my list. It is simply amazing what has been achieved and now we get to build from there an entire new whatever this is that is starting to take shape for the first time. We are highly adaptable beings when you pay attention to what is happening.

We have millions of new tools now and we have yet to have the time to sit down and see how they are all connected and what cool things you can do with what is already out there. So while the economy sucks, innovation is running at a record pace and just be prepared to COPY what works. Go to sleep and wake up and look at the world with a fresh set of eyes. You will be amazed at what you see.

My original objective was simple. I wanted to create a “Revenue engine” that would be capbable of making me $2740 a day. $1M a year for the rest of my life. THAT was my objective and THAT is what I built. A financial bunker of sorts with a $1M moat during the worst of times and hopefully a little more in better times.

I started my journey at $1/day. Then $2/day, then $5 a day and so on. But I always focused only on the day. Like focusing only on the next step of a ladder. Others would make $100 one day and $0 the next day. That was not what I was looking to do. I was looking for consistency. I was building a foundation.

I was building a virtual engine with domains. Adding cubic inches as I added domains with traffic. I could make that engine any size because it was Virtual not Metal. But I just wanted that $1M a year before I even woke up in the morning. So some days I am retired and somedays I work until I fall asleep at my computer. But it was and is MY CHOICE every single day since then and even before then.

Funny thing happened on the way to that. I obtained the goal in late 1997. In January 1998 I sold all the traffic for $30,000 a week. $1.5M/year. Even better than my goal. After I sat around and goofed off for a a few months I asked myself what was stopping me from doing that again? Repeating what I had done. And so I did. In the next 18 months I built another revenue engine duplicating what I had done before. $1/day, $5/day, $10/day and so on. I finally did that one more time just as an insurance policy.

My goal was to create revenue streams and not work. Creating work would have been much more fruitful as many make much more. But I never wanted to be dragged back into a job. Into a commitment. My soul was paid for and the last thing I wanted to do was re-mortgage it. Retired and that was how I wanted to stay.

As for the domains, I knew they would skyrocket in value and that was another train that would come online with more gold on it. The biggest booty. Booty that would put what I already made in a shadow. I still believe that. My mission was to accumulate great domains and afford to renew them for 20 years.

Yes the days with those 3 duplicate revenue streams are over for now. But the moat is still in tact and then some.

Lastly, revenue since I am online has now crashed THREE times. In the adult world around 1999. In mainstream in 2003-2004 and as we are all witnessing 2010-2011. But each time the crash occurred, things ROARED back stronger than ever. That's the nature of things and I don't expect it different in the future.

All I can do is share the path I took as I don't know the other paths as I was not on them. But I did watch from afar as many fell off a cliff. They were much smarter with much more talent and know how than me. But they still fell off a cliff. I know that cliff and all I knew is I did not want to be anywhere near it. So I built a moat to keep me clear of that. Once I built that I knew I had the luxury of time on my side.

All the words in the world can say one thing and it won’t matter one iota if the numbers don’t match the words. My compass is numbers. Numbers don’t lie, people lie. Pretty simple starting point. Your job in life is to be skeptical, however, not to the point of dismissing new numbers, facts and discoveries. Numbers should be your friend. Your closest adviser. The determining factor in most cases.

I am a mathematician by hobby. SIMPLE MATH. Addition, subtraction, division, percentages and equations. I really sucked in Algebra until I became really good in Algebra. The rest really was made for the calculator. But somewhere along the way they drew that line way too low and many never learned the basics.

So while others use words with motives behind them as their compass, I use numbers that are not clouded by words. Not bent and bastardized by words. Not adulterated and whored by motives. Numbers paint one picture and words can paint another. A mirage if you allow yourself to do that. A Blue Sky.

Folks swallow bait instead of doing the hard work of finding out themselves. They use a calculator because they don’t know the multiplication tables. Never heard of the “Ben Franklin Method”. Don’t understand that in negotiations it is a game and anything goes. That “John Jones” has eyes and your job is to get into those eyes to see what he sees because what you see is meaningless if you want to sell them something.

Everyone in business MUST be a salesman. So if you never sold anything, the transition may be difficult. Every successful businessperson must wear a number of hats to succeed. Psychologist is one of them so you can relate and understand reactions and human nature and other emotions.

But through all that, numbers never lie and when someone says it is only a penny or a nickel or whatever, tell them that billions are made a penny at a time. When they say this or that does not count, then you know either are the words coming from their mouth.

Those that valued domains on a PPC multiple used a flawed and useless model. I am on record for years saying that. Now look. Who wants to use that model? Here’s the secret. It was NFG then and it is NFG now. It was based on something sure to fluctuate. That is what markets do. They go up, they pop and they go down and crash. Then they repeat the process.

If you feed the calculator the wrong numbers and you don’t know they are wrong and don’t know what the approximate answer should be, then you are lost. In a fog. No way to even realize what a wrong answer is and what a right answer is or anything even close. That is the same with opportunity. If you don’t know what to look for, there is little hope on grabbing it. Especially when opportunity usually is invisible and seldom if ever has a neon sign showing the way.

You can’t be first on the next thing until you clean that up. It will keep you boxed in of your own device forever. Don’t do that to yourselves. Make numbers your friends. They will never let you down and they will never lie to you.

Now let me tie the last 2 posts together as they are all related and it shows that Google is under siege. Now that is nothing new. What's new is it is now costing Google a LOT of money, a lot of customers and for the first time they are being reactive on their heals not their toes.

It was actually my brother that discovered Groupon just 1 year ago. And until this week, I have never actually used a Groupon or purchased one.

So Brother#1 buys a Groupon for 50% off a boat charter on a specific day. Brother #2 asks “What if it rains that day?” Brother #1 did not think of that. I don’t know if they have a rain check or not. But illustrated the first challenge. But the risk might be worth the reward for the customer. Just depends.

Now let’s fast forward to now. Last Sunday I had a Groupon for a place that served breakfast that I had never been to. So at the end of the meal I whip out my Groupon and the Owner whips out his list and we begin to talk.

I asked him how he liked the Groupon. He said he loved it. He said he sold 400 of them. I told him that was the first time I had been there after living in the area for 12 years and that it was working. He was thrilled and started telling me about all the new faces he was seeing and how good business was.

Point is he saw the results. He could measure everything. It was so simple. With Google, you can wipe that smile right off. He hates wasting his money. Etc Etc. So for those that think those are different dollars, I beg to differ.

If you have a $1000 budget, you have more choice now than before and when you are faced with that choice, Groupon wins. Newspaper, direct mail, Google, Yellow Pages, Radio, TV, Magazines, Billboards and now Groupon. It eats at ALL of their profits and bottom lines. They all compete for that $1000. or $100k or $1M or whatever.

What was in concrete for decades is now fluid. It's changing and when things change you have winners and losers. Groupon is the big winner and Google is the big loser. Many don't see the connection. I do and I just showed you why by just touching the surface of all this and it is much deeper and will play out on many levels.

This hole in the wall restaurant told me everything I needed to know. If it works for him, it can work for anyone that knows how to run and grow a business. The owner is back in control and he is online and cool and all the rest. I told 12 people about this place this week. Some knew, some did not. Some that go will share it with their friends on Facebook. So Groupon can become the nucleus of your marketing efforts if used correctly. Or Rue La la or Gilt or whoever is next. It does not matter. It matters that it WORKS! It matters that it deflects and disrupts dollars from going into one company pocket as opposed another pocket.

So as I wrote last year……I am happy Groupon resisted Google’s offer. That was a BOLD move and it illustrates how much they believe in what they have. Groupon gives you the power to open a business and effectively market it from day #1.

Yes, others can/will/have copied their model. They do that because it works and that only accelerates Groupon’s marketing efforts. You can't measure the effectiveness of Groupon the way many here do. You have to ask yourself how much is a new customer worth?? How many more times will he come in and pay full price?

Did you consider that you could create an INSTANT business with just one Groupon? Just think in terms of a grand opening where most give things away. There are 'Flash crowds', you could create a 'Flash Business'. Sell umbrellas when it rains.

This is what I wrote about Groupon on December 15th: Some folks did not understand where I saw this, now it should be more clear.

“Then in a year from now they are likely to really get down to comparing results and see that Groupon is really a much better buy than Google. Which would explain why Google wanted to buy them and Groupon said no. Thank you Groupon!! That was a bold move and a win for all of us whether you see or understand it or not. Google buys anyone they see as a threat so they can control everything. Our job is to help those that can challenge them and gives us all alternatives. So pray that Groupon and Facebook and Twitter and others stay independent. If you wake up one day and Google bought them, it will be a bad day.”

The world changed in the last months. Facebook, Groupon, Twitter, LivingSocial and others have changed the course of things and the Google Highway is off kilter.

So I salute all of these companies for changing the dynamics and the playing field. This is why I have been saying this is like the first year of the Internet, Because now there are things to copy and to build on. There are now more and more profitable working models and competing forces. This rose is blossoming and we are finding that Google may no longer be the center of the universe. That's a BIG change. That's a GREAT thing.

So I LOVE Groupon. I think Facebook is the Hula Hoop of our day. And Twitter is the soapbox we each have for whatever audience we have. There are so many more emerging it will be hard to keep up with.

But the bottom line is that Groupon is the FIRST truly great marketing concept that works for any size business doing about anything. Groupon is an INSTANT business if you look at it properly. Groupon is a great tool and there will be so many ways to take advantage of it. Sorry, but Google can't compete with that. They are so busy screwing over folks that the first alternative that came along would pull many away. So many in fact that Wall Street is not going to like what they see. This is just the begining of their problems. When they see just how vulnerable the 'Invincible' is, they are going to be shocked.

Now Google is not going anywhere soon. Matter of fact, some would say their best days may be ahead of them. But the Arrogant Google that said it would never split it's stock and was going to be like Berkshire Hathaway, well that Google.....is DEAD! That Google is not going to go where they expected. That Google is off course and just searching with them is becoming more and more painful.

Do I blame Amazon? Walmart? Verizon? Sears? Best Buy? Kmart? NextTag? Amazon? Target? Amazon? No, not at all. But Google may win the stupid award. Why? They may be making themselves irrelevant. When you keep serving up those results in half the things you search for, well that's just a list of national chains and some guys pay to be in the list twice. What happened to SEARCH? This is should be called the OBVIOUS ENGINE! Search you would expect a result you would not have already thought of. DUH!!

Things are moving so fast nobody can truly keep up with the innovations. Google can't keep up with the future which is changing faster than I can write this. Now Google is not Alta Vista. They have invested wisely. But Google may have lost their balance. The VC guys like Schmidt ran the company a certain way. ran it for Wall Street. And failed the last few years. But they did permanent damage and set a bad tone over those years. No longer that warm fuzzy company. What happened to a company folks used to love? My advice, get back to basics.

I enjoy looking at things in a number of ways and from many viewpoints. The way to do that is make a bold statement and then discuss. All relative points get added to the equation on either side of the argument and that always helps make things more clear no matter the subject. Many of you think there is no relationship whatsoever between these companies. I see an entire different picture coming. As always, time will tell. But I still see what I see and I am just sharing that with you the reader.

I am amazed that so many domainers do not understand why Groupon came out of nowhere to be where it is now and a threat to Google. Stop looking at things like a domainer. That is short sighted. Look at it thru the average consumer, the average small business. When you do that, everything looks different.

Let’s start here. More retailers on Main Street have tried Groupon in the first year than have used Google in 7 years. There is a reason for that. I can’t believe so many folks are missing that. Maybe they need to talk to the business owners that use and LOVE Groupon.

Results they can see, measure and make money with as they instantly grow their businesses.

Google for the first time is REACTING to both Groupon and Facebook and Twitter is still a tool. Google is no longer setting the agenda in the way they did just MONTHS ago. They are wobbling and a talent is leaving.

Will Google ever get back to $750/share? I sure as hell could make a case that it won’t happen. That the numbers a year from now will look terrible compared to their past growth. That Schmidt was brought in to raise the value and with his departure will go the stock price.

Groupon a fad? Could be. But fads have disrupted things before. A fad may only be a stopping point to something even bigger. But I don't think it is such a fad. It will last too many years to be a fad. By that time it permanently changed the landscape.

See, I have seen similar scenarios play out during my life. A cycle of sorts that repeats itself. The names change but the events don’t. Just different facades.

Google is being disrupted and now they are trying to disrupt. It shows a reaction as opposed to leading. It won’t lead where they expect and that opens up a can of worms that they can never control again. Knowledge is power and they are going to be met with opposition as the little guy embraces Groupon, Facebook and Twitter because they understand it better than they do Google. They see the results. They get it.

You can't be myopic on this. There are just too many things to look at and outside forces not in their control. As domainers we may look at it one way. Just keep in mind you are only looking at it in one way. But how does the retailer look at it? The manufacturer? The ma and pa businesses? The consumer? They count more. Google can make a bad decision somewhere along the way and it could end up doing more harm to themselves than even those companies mentioned could.