good stuff, kingsley -- BTW i'm hoping to get some of the nytimes guys out to see you et al at:
http://www.linkeddataplanet.com/index.php
perhaps the main use case for large content-centric (as opposed to big *concept*-centric, if you follow the distinction?) orgs like the BBC and NYtimes is aggregating content across content owners/silos...
identifiers and cross-domain equivalency relationships are the most pertinent problems to crack...
sure, Google News, et al, do this already, but it could be so much better with linked data and sem web annotations...
that's why i think we shouldn't be too precious about using Web-of-Docs imDB URIs, etc, to help us identify concepts/things... it's too valuable in terms of "tagging" content to ignore just because there's currently no RDF available...
here's a presentation i contributed to which tries to explain some of this. clearly, we are implicitly refering to Linked Open Data in this presentation...
http://www.slideshare.net/guest2c797e/wikipedia-as-controlled-vocabularyhttp://sells.welcomebackstage.com:5000/item/submithttp://ivanherman.wordpress.com/2007/10/12/wikipedia-uri-s-as-reliable-identifiers-for-the-semantic-web/
do let me know what you make of it, if you have time to have a look...
best--
--cs
-----Original Message-----
From: Kingsley Idehen [mailto:kidehen@openlinksw.com]
Sent: Sat 4/5/2008 2:26 PM
To: Chris Sizemore
Cc: public-lod@w3.org; Michael Smethurst; Silver Oliver; pepper@ontopia.net; Dan Brickley
Subject: Re: imdb as linked open data?
Chris Sizemore wrote:
> hmmm, kingsley, I'm not sure those labels are clear, actually... I think
> I understand the distinctions, but...
>
Chris,
I am saying that we communicate the essence of the matter (at the
current time): Linked Data Web as an adjunct to the current Document
Web, rather than lose our emerging audience -- a frequent occurrence
when using the broader term: "Semantic Web" :-)
I think this issue of description and language certainly needs
collaborative work via a Wiki article etc..
I am more or less done with the LOD Wiki Space
<http://community.linkeddata.org/MediaWiki>. Which can act an area for
us to finesse some of our descriptions and language.
The setup is explained at:
http://community.linkeddata.org/MediaWiki/index.php?VirtuosoWiki:About
Kingsley
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kingsley Idehen [mailto:kidehen@openlinksw.com]
> Sent: 04 April 2008 16:28
> To: Chris Sizemore
> Cc: Tom Heath; public-lod@w3.org; Michael Smethurst; Silver Oliver;
> pepper@ontopia.net; Dan Brickley
> Subject: Re: imdb as linked open data?
>
> Chris Sizemore wrote:
>
>> "I'm not sure the Semantic Web is hard; we've just got to be clear
>> about how we communicate it to people."
>>
>> agreed!
>>
>>
> Correct, this is why I start with: Linked Data Web or Web or Linked Data
> :-)
>
> Kingsley
>
>> --cs
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Tom Heath [mailto:Tom.Heath@talis.com]
>> Sent: 04 April 2008 14:27
>> To: Chris Sizemore; public-lod@w3.org
>> Cc: Michael Smethurst; Silver Oliver; pepper@ontopia.net; Dan Brickley
>> Subject: RE: imdb as linked open data?
>>
>> Hi Chris, all,
>>
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: public-lod-request@w3.org
>>> [mailto:public-lod-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Chris Sizemore
>>> Sent: 04 April 2008 13:38
>>> To: public-lod@w3.org
>>> Cc: Michael Smethurst; Silver Oliver; pepper@ontopia.net
>>> Subject: RE: imdb as linked open data?
>>>
>>> all--
>>>
>>> so, i was correct in thinking that imdb is interesting to the LOD
>>> community.
>>>
>>>
>> Correct :)
>>
>>
>>
>>> i agree that offering "what's a/the Sem Web business model?"
>>> is pretty important in order to get buy in... does anyone have any
>>> contacts in and around imdb?
>>>
>>>
>> I think there might be a Bristol connection here. Perhaps danbri can
>> help. Dan?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> ***************** forgive the following if it's controversial
>>> -- i'm honestly just trying to understand better ***********
>>>
>>>
>> Discussion is good. Bring it on!
>>
>>
>>
>>> however, on a more philosophical note, i DON'T think imdb neccesarily
>>>
>
>
>>> needs to explicitly opt into the Web of Data in order for the world
>>> at
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>> large to find Sem Web value in that data... i suppose it would be
>>> very
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>> desirable for imdb to officially provide Open Data/rdf of their
>>> content, but i don't think that's the only way for the Sem Web to
>>> gain
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>> value from imdb...
>>>
>>> basically, my premise is this: imdb is on the Web of Docs, and that's
>>>
>
>
>>> good enough for the purpose of answering the question to be posed
>>> here
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>> -- http://www.okkam.org/IRSW2008/ (the problem of identity and
>>> reference on the Semantic Web is perhaps the single most important
>>> issue for reaching a global scale. Initiatives like LinkedData,
>>> OntoWorld and the large number of proposals aiming at using popular
>>> URLs (e.g.
>>> Wikipedia's) as "canonical" URIs (especially for non informational
>>> resources) show that a solution to this issue is very urgent and very
>>> relevant.)
>>>
>>> at this point in my indoctrination to LOD (i'm a long time semweb
>>> fanboy, tho), i guess i disagree with: "From a SemWeb POV this
>>> [http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0088846/#thing
>>> <http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0088846/#thing> ] is pretty useless
>>> since
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>> the URI doesn't resolve to RDF data.
>>> Identifiers on the Web are only as good as the data they point to.
>>> IMDB URIs point to high-quality web pages, but not to data." --
>>> clearly i understand the difference between "data" and "web page"
>>> here, but i don't agree that it's so black and white. i'd suggest:
>>> "Identifiers on the Web are only as good as the clarity of what they
>>> point to..." i don't think there has to be RDF at the other end to
>>> make a URI useful, in many cases...
>>>
>>>
>> Chris, yes, I agree; been pondering this myself and for once I don't
>> agree with Richard; it's not so black and white. I was aiming for
>> something along these lines with URIs for Email Users:
>> <http://simile.mit.edu/mail/ReadMsg?listId=14&msgId=15205>
>>
>>
>>
>>> at this point, for example at the BBC, my view is that identifiers
>>> and
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>> equivalency relationships are more important than RDF... just barely
>>> more important, granted... having a common set of identifiers, like
>>> navigable stars in the sky over an ocean, is what we need most now,
>>> in
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>> order to help us aggregate content across the org, and also link it
>>> up
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>> to useful stuff outside our walled garden.
>>>
>>>
>> The navigable stars analogy is a beautiful one.
>>
>>
>>
>>> so, i'm one of those who feel that websites like imdb, wikipedia, and
>>>
>
>
>>> musicbrainz provide great identifiers for non-information resources
>>> even in their Web of Docs form. i know that most of you here will
>>> feel
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>> that this is lazy, too informal, and naive of me. but my argument is
>>> that, for sites like those i mention (not all websites, by any means)
>>>
>
>
>>> we may as well, for the purposes of our day to day use cases, use
>>> their URLs as if they were Sem Web URIs. on these sites, the
>>> distinction between resource and representation (concept and doc
>>> about
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>> concept) is not what's pertinent.
>>>
>>> i'm aware that most on this list will make a religious distinction
>>> between:
>>>
>>> http://dbpedia.org/resource/Madonna_%28entertainer%29
>>>
>>> and
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madonna_(entertainer)
>>>
>>> but i think that, by convention, and in the contexts they'd actually
>>> be used, we should treat them both as identifiers for the same
>>> concept, and that they are essentially sameAs's *in common
>>> practice"...
>>>
>>>
>> Hmmm...
>>
>>
>>
>>> in other words, as much as i love dbPedia and think it's a brilliant
>>> step forward, i personally was fine with WIkipedia URLs as
>>> identifiers. the incredible thing about dbpedia is the data mining to
>>>
>
>
>>> extract RDF, not the URIs or content negotiation.
>>>
>>> i KNOW that, technically, what i'm saying breaks all our rules -- and
>>>
>
>
>>> i followed
>>> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/httpRange-14/2007-05-31/HttpRan
>>> ge-14.html closely -- but philosophically i think there's something
>>> to
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>> what i'm saying... if the Web is easy and the Sem Web hard, must we
>>> insist on perfection? must we insist that imdb agree with us and
>>> explicitly opt in?
>>>
>>>
>> Perhaps the Web was hard in the early days as well though, we've just
>> forgotten? I'm not sure the Semantic Web is hard; we've just got to be
>>
>
>
>> clear about how we communicate it to people.
>>
>>
>>
>>> practically, tho, in an "official" LOD grammar sense, this works just
>>>
>
>
>>> fine for me:
>>>
>>> <http://dbpedia.org/resource/Madonna_%28entertainer%29
>>> <http://dbpedia.org/resource/Madonna_%28entertainer%29> >
>>> foaf:isPrimaryTopicOf <http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000187/
>>> <http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000187/> >
>>>
>>> <http://dbpedia.org/resource/Madonna_%28entertainer%29
>>> <http://dbpedia.org/resource/Madonna_%28entertainer%29> >
>>> foaf:isPrimaryTopicOf
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madonna_(entertainer
>>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madonna_(entertainer> )
>>>
>>> that seems useful and easy. to me, that's allowing a "sameAs"-like
>>> relationship between Web of Docs URLs and SemWeb URIs... i could
>>> really really run with that approach...
>>>
>>> but now, to stir things up a bit...
>>>
>>> given the above, thus:
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madonna_(entertainer
>>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madonna_(entertainer> ) owl:sameAs
>>> <http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000187/
>>> <http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000187/> >
>>>
>>>
>>> right? right? ;-)
>>>
>>>
>> No way. No way at all :D
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Tom.
>>
>> http://www.bbc.co.uk/
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--
Regards,
Kingsley Idehen Weblog: http://www.openlinksw.com/blog/~kidehen
President & CEO
OpenLink Software Web: http://www.openlinksw.comhttp://www.bbc.co.uk/
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