If anyone wants to read a very vivid, descriptive and engaging account of the fall of Constantinople by a historian of great repute, I commend to all of you Sir Steven Runcimann's The Fall of Constantinople 1453. It is extremely readable and accessible to the layman and scholar alike. Very recommended.

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I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

If anyone wants to read a very vivid, descriptive and engaging account of the fall of Constantinople by a historian of great repute, I commend to all of you Sir Steven Runcimann's The Fall of Constantinople 1453. It is extremely readable and accessible to the layman and scholar alike. Very recommended.

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Is it true that Latins and Greeks fought side by side and celebrated liturgy together just before the fall?

Yes.

Tragically beautiful.

Emperor Constantine XI was a supporter of the reconciliation of East and West at the council of Florence.

Yes, he and his brother preceding him were of the 'war group' who favored military confrontation with the Turks and both of who foisted the false Union of Florence upon the Church pursuant to that end (They different from their father Manuel II, unfortunately). On the fateful last day of the Roman Empire the last emperor hedged his bets in the eternal life by confessing and receiving Holy Communion from a Greek bishop, a Latin bishop, and an Armenian bishop. Union, so to speak for all the wrong reasons. But, for a fleeting instant in our time, all Christiandom was united. When we unite in true (orthos) belief (doxia), we will be unconquerable.

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"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

Is it true that Latins and Greeks fought side by side and celebrated liturgy together just before the fall?

This man would be the one to ask about that subject in general:Nicetas Choniates, 1204 A.D.

Memory Eternal to all the Martyrs of Constantinople!

Um.. you got the dates mixed up. Papist's question was revelant to the Fall (1453), not the sacking(1204).

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There is no more evident sign that anyone is a saint and of the number of the elect, than to see him leading a good life and at the same time a prey to desolation, suffering, and trials. - Saint Aloysius Gonzaga

It really does tear at my heart reading about the Fall. It was a sad day for Christendom.

Memory Eternal

« Last Edit: May 29, 2009, 05:33:04 PM by ChristusDominus »

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There is no more evident sign that anyone is a saint and of the number of the elect, than to see him leading a good life and at the same time a prey to desolation, suffering, and trials. - Saint Aloysius Gonzaga

Is it true that Latins and Greeks fought side by side and celebrated liturgy together just before the fall?

Weren't there supposed to be more Latins there to help defend the city? Didn't the Pope back out and watch the city fall, securing Old Rome's place as the sole heir to rule over global Christendom (aside from Russia)? I have read many historians argue that Old Rome wanted New Rome to fall, as they had been competitors for some time, each side vying to head Christianity as its global representative.

Is it true that Latins and Greeks fought side by side and celebrated liturgy together just before the fall?

Weren't there supposed to be more Latins there to help defend the city? Didn't the Pope back out and watch the city fall, securing Old Rome's place as the sole heir to rule over global Christendom (aside from Russia)? I have read many historians argue that Old Rome wanted New Rome to fall, as they had been competitors for some time, each side vying to head Christianity as its global representative.

I do recall reading there were many, if not mostly, Latins in the last defense of the nearly totally depopulated city.As to the rest, I don't think the pope was ever "there" in the first instance to be charge with abandoning the city. He, along with the rest of the west, just watched. (And I am not commenting on that either as condemnation or as anything else - just as a fact).

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"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

Is it true that Latins and Greeks fought side by side and celebrated liturgy together just before the fall?

Weren't there supposed to be more Latins there to help defend the city?

Yeah, and they died fighting. Or did the Muslims say, " all Latins are free to go except for the Greeks" ?

« Last Edit: May 29, 2009, 06:59:56 PM by ChristusDominus »

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There is no more evident sign that anyone is a saint and of the number of the elect, than to see him leading a good life and at the same time a prey to desolation, suffering, and trials. - Saint Aloysius Gonzaga

On the fateful last day of the Roman Empire the last emperor hedged his bets in the eternal life by confessing and receiving Holy Communion from a Greek bishop, a Latin bishop, and an Armenian bishop. Union, so to speak for all the wrong reasons. But, for a fleeting instant in our time, all Christiandom was united.

Didn't Russia stay out of the union? Could this explain why they didn't help Constantinople?

On the fateful last day of the Roman Empire the last emperor hedged his bets in the eternal life by confessing and receiving Holy Communion from a Greek bishop, a Latin bishop, and an Armenian bishop. Union, so to speak for all the wrong reasons. But, for a fleeting instant in our time, all Christiandom was united.

Didn't Russia stay out of the union? Could this explain why they didn't help Constantinople?

Bishop Isidore of Kiev was present at the council and advocated for the union. After the council he returned to Russia where he was arrested and imprisoned.

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"When you give food to the poor, they call you a saint. When you ask why the poor have no food, they call you a communist". - Archbishop Hélder Pessoa Câmara

It was a "reunion" as I understand it; not a conversion. However, it's my understanding that the faithful of Constantinople, likewise, rejected the reunion, overwhelmingly. The agreements of the so called "Council of Florence-Ferrara" (sp) amounted to a capitulation of Eastern Orthodoxy of its disputes with the Roman West, i.e. Filioque, Claims of Papal authority, etc., except that the liturgical practices and clerical marital discipline of the East could be retained. It was the blueprint for the shortly thereafter implemented unia.

Um.. you got the dates mixed up. Papist's question was revelant to the Fall (1453), not the sacking(1204).

No. I did not get the dates mixed up. You really don't see the relevance of the fact that Constantinople (Greeks) were horrendously, brutally sacked by the Latins in 1204 (when they were supposedly there to help defend the Greeks against the Islamic military!) in regards to the issue of whether or not Latins were “co-defending” that same city with Greeks against Islamic forces barely two centuries later? It’s great and all that the Latins eventually got around to helping the Greeks,... but not exactly that great. As the saying goes: Too little too late.

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"Disputes merely about words must not be suffered to divide those who think alike."-St. Athanasius (†444)

Is it true that Latins and Greeks fought side by side and celebrated liturgy together just before the fall?

Weren't there supposed to be more Latins there to help defend the city? Didn't the Pope back out and watch the city fall, securing Old Rome's place as the sole heir to rule over global Christendom (aside from Russia)? I have read many historians argue that Old Rome wanted New Rome to fall, as they had been competitors for some time, each side vying to head Christianity as its global representative.

Quote

Constantinople had become the gold mine which supplied Latin Christendom.The wealth was so great that the looting continued for sixty years.

Did the Greeks submit to the pope and convert to Roman Catholicism (for as long as the union lasted) or did they simply reach a compromise?

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In April 1204 the crusdaers carried out a second attack on Constantinople. For three days the soldiers ran riot, forgetting their oaths not to harm women or attack churches or monasteries. Constantinople was shared out... The city was very wealthy and enormous amounts of booty were shared out between the new rulers.

The crusaders had become rich and Constantinople was now part of the Western Empire. But within 60 years the city was recaptured by the Greeks and re-established as the head of the Eastern Empire. The Greek Orthodox Church refused to submit to the Pope, and blamed him for what had happened.

Um.. you got the dates mixed up. Papist's question was revelant to the Fall (1453), not the sacking(1204).

No. I did not get the dates mixed up. You really don't see the relevance of the fact that Constantinople (Greeks) were horrendously, brutally sacked by the Latins in 1204 (when they were supposedly there to help defend the Greeks against the Islamic military!) in regards to the issue of whether or not Latins were “co-defending” that same city with Greeks against Islamic forces barely two centuries later? It’s great and all that the Latins eventually got around to helping the Greeks,... but not exactly that great. As the saying goes: Too little too late.

O.K., I'll respond with a question; what's the title of this thread? The fall of Constantinople? or the sack of Constantinople? Sheesh! All I wanted to say was Memory Eternal. I can sense your animosity towards Catholics. I'll pray for you

« Last Edit: May 29, 2009, 10:10:06 PM by ChristusDominus »

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There is no more evident sign that anyone is a saint and of the number of the elect, than to see him leading a good life and at the same time a prey to desolation, suffering, and trials. - Saint Aloysius Gonzaga

Is it true that Latins and Greeks fought side by side and celebrated liturgy together just before the fall?

Weren't there supposed to be more Latins there to help defend the city?

Yeah, and they died fighting. Or did the Muslims say, " all Latins are free to go except for the Greeks" ?

I can’t really imagine Nicetas Choniates being too impressed.

And the events that occurred in 1182? Who did they impress?

« Last Edit: May 29, 2009, 10:03:02 PM by ChristusDominus »

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There is no more evident sign that anyone is a saint and of the number of the elect, than to see him leading a good life and at the same time a prey to desolation, suffering, and trials. - Saint Aloysius Gonzaga

"O God, the heathen are come into Thine inheritance, they have defiled Thy holy temple, O Lord. They have made the dead bodies of Thy servants to be food for the birds of heaven, the flesh of Thy saints for the beasts of the earth."

If anyone of you are interested in knowing how Constantinople was fallen. I highly recommend you to read Yorgios Sfrancis's Journal(Kronikon Mikron). Though there's sth important to be watched for there are two journals in the history written like that. Kronikos Mikron is a day by day journal written by Yorgios Sfrancis, but there's also one called Kronikon Maius which was written after 200 years from the fall of Constantinople by Makarios Melissinos. Kronikon Maius has exact same lines from the Maius, Makarios has used some of Sfrancis's sentences. Kronikon Maius doesn't really have a chronologic order but Maius does.

"O God, the heathen are come into Thine inheritance, they have defiled Thy holy temple, O Lord. They have made the dead bodies of Thy servants to be food for the birds of heaven, the flesh of Thy saints for the beasts of the earth."