Rock wrote:Its not impossible to meet people in colder cultures, just more challenging. You gotta put-in more work and take things more slowly. For example, I've been told by some Korean hands that many S. Koreans are very cold but that once you secure a friendship or relationship, it tends to be very solid and long lasting. My Swedish friend told me a similar thing about Sweden.

This is why I believe some people are actually more compatible with people who are colder on the onset. The asian-american women I dated back home were ice princesses but I was able to jive with their personality. They were also Korean-American. It's too bad none of them worked out in the long term but they were definitely closer to my ideal. The Taiwanese girls I have met (my cousin is married to one) fit this profile as well. Most NE Asian girls are like this expect for maybe mainland Chinese who have more natural variation due to population size.

SEA girls expect you to be this constantly smiling and happy go lucky superficial guy who is entertaining. "Thai sanuk" is completely banal and uninteresting. I enjoy sardonic dry wit and irony. Women who appreciate that certainly don't come from Thailand or probably SEA in general.

Rock wrote:2. Regarding your second set of questions, I think you are oversimplifying the scenarios. Many girls will straddle segments - can date locals, foreigners, and/or ABCs depending on circumstances and guy. I know of many Taiwan girls who have dated both locals and whites, or locals and ABCs, or whites and ABCs or all three. There are often preferences depending on the girl. But at the end of the day, its the individual that usually determines her decision. Of course, the most effective strategies and approaches may vary between groups. For example, whites can get away with breaking the social codmore easily than locals and probably ABCs. On the other hand, locals and ABCs will often be taken more seriously by the girl's family if a long term relationship leading to marriage is being considered.

Winston is literally the only ABC i've heard of that has had major problems in Taiwan dating. All the ABCs I know of had a ball doing things like love boat (when they were younger) and then going back to Taiwan for long stay work-holidays dating and hitting the night life.

This all comes back to the major reason I suspect Winston doesn't have much luck.. I would say he's considered _very_ unattractive by most Taiwanese women because he really does look like the prototypical middle aged Chinese uncle. I don't know of any women that wants to date a mirror image of their uncle. If he dressed or resembled someone older and sophisticated like Tony Leung he would not have a problem.

Winston, I believe that the advice other's are giving you here is on the right track. Also, even though you've been living all over, and are not fully Taiwanese yourself, there is likely something about you which Taiwanese woman can easily see through/call out, or become immediately wary of. If you're not getting the response you want, try something different. I talked to an ABC friend of mine and he said it's pretty hard for all Taiwanese guys in Taipei, unless you have lots of cash. Sometimes teaming up with a foreign friend can help, but likely you're going to need to stand out (in the right way).

I've also noticed since being back that different cities in Taiwan vary a LOT in how approachable women are. Here in Taichung women seem much friendlier/approachable than Taipei (esp Zhongshan area- daytime- not bars). After spending some time in Taipei last few days, I was left longing for the 'glory days' (20 some years ago) when foreigners were referred to as 'big-nose' and everyone pointed at us and smiled. It was super easy back then to connect with women. Nowadays people (in Taipei) seemed very on guard, so serious, and lacking joy. Riding the MRT I was surrounded by many beautiful gals, but seemingly, most revealed little personality and many had deadened faces. Very difficult to get any eye contact there... maybe I was out of my element, but seemed to be more than me.

This strongly contrasted with my arrival in Taichung where I got immediate lots of eye contact, 'hello's and smiles walking down the street. Will report back soon.

dragonboy wrote: After spending some time in Taipei last few days, I was left longing for the 'glory days' (20 some years ago) when foreigners were referred to as 'big-nose' and everyone pointed at us and smiled. It was super easy back then to connect with women. Nowadays people (in Taipei) seemed very on guard, so serious, and lacking joy. Riding the MRT I was surrounded by many beautiful gals, but seemingly, most revealed little personality and many had deadened faces. Very difficult to get any eye contact there... maybe I was out of my element, but seemed to be more than me.

Just curious but what age range are you in and how old is your ABC friend? The venues and type of women you go for certainly vary with age as does the attention. Taiwanese (and Thai) girls are really into metrosexual looking guys. Clean cut, slender, lanky, and well dressed with fashionable clothing and a boyish handsome face is the usual ideal profile. Some guys go to Taiwan and expect it to be like Thailand where they are going to date a bevy of beauties that are half their age but not many guys are going to be able to carry that off without serious money or looking like George Clooney/Tony Leung.

dragonboy wrote:Winston, I believe that the advice other's are giving you here is on the right track. Also, even though you've been living all over, and are not fully Taiwanese yourself, there is likely something about you which Taiwanese woman can easily see through/call out, or become immediately wary of. If you're not getting the response you want, try something different. I talked to an ABC friend of mine and he said it's pretty hard for all Taiwanese guys in Taipei, unless you have lots of cash. Sometimes teaming up with a foreign friend can help, but likely you're going to need to stand out (in the right way).

I've also noticed since being back that different cities in Taiwan vary a LOT in how approachable women are. Here in Taichung women seem much friendlier/approachable than Taipei (esp Zhongshan area- daytime- not bars). After spending some time in Taipei last few days, I was left longing for the 'glory days' (20 some years ago) when foreigners were referred to as 'big-nose' and everyone pointed at us and smiled. It was super easy back then to connect with women. Nowadays people (in Taipei) seemed very on guard, so serious, and lacking joy. Riding the MRT I was surrounded by many beautiful gals, but seemingly, most revealed little personality and many had deadened faces. Very difficult to get any eye contact there... maybe I was out of my element, but seemed to be more than me.

This strongly contrasted with my arrival in Taichung where I got immediate lots of eye contact, 'hello's and smiles walking down the street. Will report back soon.

Hey dragonboy, so glad you could join the discussion. Welcome! You sound like someone who has some interesting Taiwan experience. Please share more when you can.

Yes, Taipei is probably colder than a decade or two before and probably colder than Taichung as well. But screw the eye contact. I think its still very doable for many. For example, if you come as an exchange student and go to clubs and nightspots, you will meet a lot of students at your school and another set of people at night. Your new friends will likely include many interested females from both groups. So Taipei is probably still great for western exchange students. And the right type of 30 something westerner can pull a lot of attractive student types. A decent to good-looking and youthful mid 30s westerner with a good personality and proactive nature can do surprisingly well, even with some hot young students or part-time work girls. I've seen it done by at least two such guys in Taipei in the last 18 months. As for ABCs, I don't want to comment because I just haven't observed enough. I mainly know that world from what my local friends tell me.

Also, I bet you must appreciate the infrastructure and quality of life improvements you see in Taipei today. And people are generally more polite, gentle, and seemingly educated IMO than what you see the 'hospitable' south and center. Too bad it rains so much more in Taipei though.

Rock wrote: as for ABCs, I don't want to comment because I just haven't observed enough. I mainly know that world from what my local friends tell me.

Rock, you've been in Taiwan awhile how come you don't know many ABC's? I mean I have problems _not_ running into Thai-Americans everywhere here in Bangkok. I figured Taipei would be similar in some respects. Do you hang out in mostly western pick up venues with western expats?

Also, do you know any foreigners there that use the internet to speed date? In thailand expats do this quite a bit with fairly good results. I remember years back when I used msn personals and got good responses from Taiwanese girls.

dragonboy wrote: After spending some time in Taipei last few days, I was left longing for the 'glory days' (20 some years ago) when foreigners were referred to as 'big-nose' and everyone pointed at us and smiled. It was super easy back then to connect with women. Nowadays people (in Taipei) seemed very on guard, so serious, and lacking joy. Riding the MRT I was surrounded by many beautiful gals, but seemingly, most revealed little personality and many had deadened faces. Very difficult to get any eye contact there... maybe I was out of my element, but seemed to be more than me.

Just curious but what age range are you in and how old is your ABC friend? The venues and type of women you go for certainly vary with age as does the attention. Taiwanese (and Thai) girls are really into metrosexual looking guys. Clean cut, slender, lanky, and well dressed with fashionable clothing and a boyish handsome face is the usual ideal profile. Some guys go to Taiwan and expect it to be like Thailand where they are going to date a bevy of beauties that are half their age but not many guys are going to be able to carry that off without serious money or looking like George Clooney/Tony Leung.

OK, Taiwan may not be the older man's paradise. But I do think Taiwan women can be very forgiving on looks. Now a lot of white guys have bad taste plus they often make the mistake of trying to find gfs mainly in clubs popular with westerners. Often they limit themselves just to those who speak very good English too. So don't be surprised when you see some western guys (even good looking ones) walking hand-in-hand with, IMO, substandard local girls.

But I've also seen some westerners who are quite particular find much better looking girls. And some just end up with a hottie by accident. For example, about 6 years ago, I had a neighbor (short dumpy looking but mild mannered mid-30s Brit) who had met an early 20s local girl on some chatroom several months back. They developed a relationship online and he moved over to Taiwan be with her so they could live together. He got some job as an editor at a local company making around NT$50,000 (about US$1,500 at the time) a month. Anyway, this girl was 5'8", very attractive, had great sexy body, and was shy and innocent (virgin like). I never saw her anywhere in the neighborhood without him over the months, the two were inseparable. They ended-up getting married, moved away, and that's the last I heard.

On the flip-side, one of my other friends, another mid-30s short and unattractive type, white American, played the role of serial dater looking for sex. He would often approach strangers with thick skin and a fairly lame approach. Rejection didn't phase him too much. Online, he would blast-out emails to dozens of local profiles at a time. He played numbers game using sloppy methods but high volume. He got a lot of dates and sex and the quality was all over the map cus he didn't seem to care too much. Sometimes I saw him with really ugly and low class looking girls, IMO. But I also saw him with very young cuties and in some cases, the girls were really hot.

Rock wrote:OK, Taiwan may not be the older man's paradise. But I do think Taiwan women can be very forgiving on looks. Now a lot of white guys have bad taste plus they often make the mistake of trying to find gfs mainly in clubs popular with westerners. Often they limit themselves just to those who speak very good English too. So don't be surprised when you see some western guys (even good looking ones) walking hand-in-hand with, IMO, substandard local girls.

That's kind of like Thailand, heh. I have noticed some peculiarities with this. Young good looking european men (usually from France, Italy, etc..) have pretty good taste in women. They tend to go for the hot girls (tall, thai-chinese classy looking) with decent results. White men from the english speaking countries tend to get ugglies a lot (short, brown, and round). I think it's just differences in perception and willingness to learn the local language. The young european guys I know usually speak Thai decently on top of that.

I still see the hottest girls with Japanese guys though. I don't know if they are p4p I suspect half of them are but some of them are just drop dead gorgeous, certainly not out of any p4p venue i've been to. I used to live in a serviced apt that had a high amount of Japanese traffic and some of the girls were ridiculous.

On the flip-side, one of my other friends, another mid-30s short and unattractive type, white American, played the role of serial dater looking for sex. He would often approach strangers with thick skin and a fairly lame approach. Rejection didn't phase him too much. Online, he would blast-out emails to dozens of local profiles at a time. He played numbers game using sloppy methods but high volume. He got a lot of dates and sex and the quality was all over the map cus he didn't seem to care too much. Sometimes I saw him with really ugly and low class looking girls, IMO. But I also saw him with very young cuties and in some cases, the girls were really hot.

That sounds like what some expats do here with thailovelinks, facebook, and camfrog. The shotgun approach does seem to work, it works for telemarketing after all .

I'm more concerned with leveraging my attributes for the highest possible quality. Since i'm actually semi-serious about finding a real quality partner and not some club cum dumpster or closet hoochie mama.

Rock wrote: as for ABCs, I don't want to comment because I just haven't observed enough. I mainly know that world from what my local friends tell me.

Rock, you've been in Taiwan awhile how come you don't know many ABC's? I mean I have problems _not_ running into Thai-Americans everywhere here in Bangkok. I figured Taipei would be similar in some respects. Do you hang out in mostly western pick up venues with western expats?

Also, do you know any foreigners there that use the internet to speed date? In thailand expats do this quite a bit with fairly good results. I remember years back when I used msn personals and got good responses from Taiwanese girls.

Here's the deal. I've had a gf for last few years and have been on a kind of social lock-down. I rarely go out alone in Taipei. The gf sticks to me like glue. So as you may have figured out from my posts, I've been experiencing things vicariously through others as of late.

Pre-gf era, I did know several ABCs, quasi ABCs, or Americanized locals well as friends including a few from work or work connections. And a few months ago, I wrote about (on this forum) a quasi-ABC friend who visited me from Shanghai. One quasi ABC co-worker (born in Beijing but grew-up in States) was pretty slick. He was late 20s, had an ABC wife in USA still in school, and would sometimes come out with me and another white expat to clubs, etc. He was well received and would sometimes bring girls home to release stress. I think he and his wife had an understanding. Once this guy seduced one of my female friends right from under my nose while the three of us were together. He took her to his nearby crib to watch a movie less than an hour after meeting. And it had taken me several dates to get her to my place before that. He was not at all aggressive or outwardly competitive. Just smooth. I had to applaud his skill.

More generally, the bulk of my personal friends in Taiwan have been local females and their circles. I've had a handful of good male friends and they are usually white Americans. And of course, I had a lot of work contacts. I've generally done my best to keep work life completely separated from personal life with the exception of a few closer work mates. I always avoided girls from the office unless they were temps and would wait until they left the company before I saw them socially. If they had been around long enough to be connected to office pipelines, I would avoid them too.

When it comes to meeting girls, I've tended to act as a lone wolf. When I see someone I like and she's alone or with a female friend or two, I often approach and give it my best shot. Sure, if I hit the clubs with friends, we may work together a bit. But often, you see the best girls during day or evening in the most random places when you least expect it. If they are not working at a location (just passing through like you), you only get one shot cus you probably will never see her again. If she rejects you, so what. You won't have to face her again. But if you fail to try, you will kick yourself later with regret. That's the way I see it anyway.

Rock wrote: as for ABCs, I don't want to comment because I just haven't observed enough. I mainly know that world from what my local friends tell me.

Rock, you've been in Taiwan awhile how come you don't know many ABC's? I mean I have problems _not_ running into Thai-Americans everywhere here in Bangkok. I figured Taipei would be similar in some respects. Do you hang out in mostly western pick up venues with western expats?

Also, do you know any foreigners there that use the internet to speed date? In thailand expats do this quite a bit with fairly good results. I remember years back when I used msn personals and got good responses from Taiwanese girls.

One more thing Repat. Bangkok is a lot more cosmopolitan than Taipei these days. You see a lot more of about any foreign group there and that probably includes American born locals. Perception wise, Taiwan is just not a very sexy destination for up-and-coming career ladder climbing Asians. For ABCs, China is probably the number 1 go to place. Some of the finance guys still go to HK and SP. But Taiwan probably falls way behind so its not like ABCs are all over the place there. You see them in certain clubs including the ones popular with white guys. But if you don't make a special effort, its likely that you won't cross social paths with any of them.

Rock wrote:One more thing Repat. Bangkok is a lot more cosmopolitan than Taipei these days. You see a lot more of about any foreign group there and that probably includes American born locals. Perception wise, Taiwan is just not a very sexy destination for up-and-coming career ladder climbing Asians. For ABCs, China is probably the number 1 go to place. Some of the finance guys still go to HK and SP. But Taiwan probably falls way behind so its not like ABCs are all over the place there. You see them in certain clubs including the ones popular with white guys. But if you don't make a special effort, its likely that you won't cross social paths with any of them.

That's true. With the people i've talked to (mostly other Chinese) there's a general sense that Taiwan's heyday has come to an end or is diminishing due to the rise of China. SE asia remains vibrant because of the emerging markets boom. SE Asia, Latin America, etc.. is just hot because of the perceived opportunities in a developing market. I guess with that kind of energy in the air you naturally attract active young people.

I guess this is a more personal question but do you regret getting involved in a long term relationship there? It seems like it would have been better to play the field indefinitely until you found an absolute one in a million type of girl.

Rock wrote:One more thing Repat. Bangkok is a lot more cosmopolitan than Taipei these days. You see a lot more of about any foreign group there and that probably includes American born locals. Perception wise, Taiwan is just not a very sexy destination for up-and-coming career ladder climbing Asians. For ABCs, China is probably the number 1 go to place. Some of the finance guys still go to HK and SP. But Taiwan probably falls way behind so its not like ABCs are all over the place there. You see them in certain clubs including the ones popular with white guys. But if you don't make a special effort, its likely that you won't cross social paths with any of them.

That's true. With the people i've talked to (mostly other Chinese) there's a general sense that Taiwan's heyday has come to an end or is diminishing due to the rise of China. SE asia remains vibrant because of the emerging markets boom. SE Asia, Latin America, etc.. is just hot because of the perceived opportunities in a developing market. I guess with that kind of energy in the air you naturally attract active young people.

I guess this is a more personal question but do you regret getting involved in a long term relationship there? It seems like it would have been better to play the field indefinitely until you found an absolute one in a million type of girl.

Hey Repat. Congrats on your promotion lol.

One important point not to forget. Just because Taiwan is not perceived as a 'sexy' destination by Asian focused students and young professionals from the States doesn't mean there isn't a lot of sexy girls there, especially in the trendy areas of Taipei. Also, remember what I wrote a few months ago about my Jewish American friend's comparison between girls in Taipei and Shanghai - he preferred the Taiwanese cus he felt that they tend to be cleaner, more cultured and educated, and much more innocent/tame (no obvious material agenda like Shanghainese). He also thought they are better looking on average. And he said that its much easier to find girls with voluptuous curves in Taipei than in Shanghai. Shanghai girls probably eat less western style food, drink less milk growing up, and tend to go for the very thin look, occasionally combined with big breasts but not the hips and ass to match. I think my friend is a credible source of info on this subject cus he's spent years in both places and has dated around some, speaks good Mandarin, and has discriminating taste.

Taiwan's economy has been slow and uninspiring over the last decade or so making it look to some as a has-been. And maybe they're right, especially when contrasted to China which has recently come of age. But still, Taipei's general infrastructure has become well-developed, the population is relatively well educated and disciplined, middle class is large, and cost of living is low. There's still plenty of wealth in the country as evidenced by the abundance of busy high-end shopping malls and expensive property. So you're gonna see a lot of classy and refined girls around town. Also, IMO, a lot of the girls from blue collar/working class backgrounds there have solid values and could make good partners, even if they and/or there family members may seem a bit rougher around the edges. A significant portion of these families are US$ millionaires too, especially if they own some local property.

When I got involved with my current gf, I actually had another gal who had been dating me for a few months and trying to get with me steady, someone I met on a random approach one day walking past Asiaworld Dept. Store. On paper, that other girl looked perfect for a LT relationship - mid 20s, 5'9", very well curved, sweet, innocent, and very attractive face, flawless light skin, and great smile. For my spec, her only physical flaw, and very minor at that, was that her legs were a bit short in proportion to her body. And, she had such a mild mannered and easygoing nature and would let me be the boss and decision maker for everything. She wanted to be with me too outside of work 24/7 and live with me as her family did not control her. But, she was just so darn easy that I got kind of bored with her as the months passed. Then along came my current gf, very young at the time, with her spicy, sassy, strong personality, wide range of interests, and clear opinions and ideas about everything. Perhaps she didn't look as good. But she challenged and stimulated something in me. I lost control and got sucked in emotionally. I gave the other girl up just like that and cut-off contact with my big list of 'female friends' at her insistence. In the early days, I strayed a few times but she somehow always caught me and put me through hell each time. I adjusted and became a new man. Don't wanna say I regret. But its been a rough ride with high opportunity cost.

For a LT relationship, be very careful before you get involved with anyone who has a strong personality or the potential to frequently nag or complain. I'm not saying it can't succeed. But you will pay a big price - high stress, frequent power struggles, loss of freedom, etc. With a lot of hard and smart work, you may be able to mellow her or even dominate her in some areas. But she still has her strong nature which will never disappear entirely. On the other hand, that nice boring girl who happens to fall int your lap might just grow on you if you give her enough time, especially if she's pleasing to your eye.

Repatriate wrote:I still see the hottest girls with Japanese guys though. I don't know if they are p4p I suspect half of them are but some of them are just drop dead gorgeous, certainly not out of any p4p venue i've been to. I used to live in a serviced apt that had a high amount of Japanese traffic and some of the girls were ridiculous.

Hmm, you should talk to these guys and find out what their secret is. After all, they aren't much different than you - NE Asian but w/out home-court advantage or native local language skills.

Or does it just boil down to money? Are they rich or on a Japanese corporate expat packages tossing around their highly inflated Yen notes?

These are important issues to figure out. Learn from the guys who do it best.

For a LT relationship, be very careful before you get involved with anyone who has a strong personality or the potential to frequently nag or complain. I'm not saying it can't succeed. But you will pay a big price - high stress, frequent power struggles, loss of freedom, etc. With a lot of hard and smart work, you may be able to mellow her or even dominate her in some areas. But she still has her strong nature which will never disappear entirely. On the other hand, that nice boring girl who happens to fall int your lap might just grow on you if you give her enough time, especially if she's pleasing to your eye.

Yeah, a lot of Chinese women have the propensity to be nags later in life especially. There's enough of them in my extended family that i'm pretty wary of it. If wanted a domineering personality trying to compensate for not being born with a penis i'd try to marry an asian-american woman. The nice boring girl is closer to what i'm looking for but i'm looking mainly for someone above average in looks (doesn't have to be smoking hot), quality education, good personality. That sounds like every man's ideal but a lot of guys are looking for just the sexiest and easiest lay they can muster or a trophy wife. I'll settle for someone tolerable and stable.

I guess i've been through a full spread of decent looking girls without the education or personality in Thailand that I really desire much more than that. The full package (IMO) is very difficult to find in Thai girls especially since beauty has been commodified to a great extent here and prostitution is rampant. Even a lot of attractive "good girls" have some sort of side or "mia noi" agreement with wealthier Thai men. It's pretty amazing really when you dig a little deeper into this society as to what goes on.