Buffy-verse Faves Face Off, Heroes and Once Upon a Time Villains Collide, in Bad Boy Bracket

Yes, folks, in a battle of Buffy the Vampire Slayer favorites, we’ve got Angel versus Spike, plus a showdown between Sylar from Heroes and Rumplestiltskin/Mr. Gold from Once Upon a Time.

Every day for the next several weeks, we’ll kick off a new set of matchups in a single-elimination format that will whittle our field of 64 down to one ultimate champ. So make sure the right choice is made by heading down to our polls to vote for your favorites (Round 2 voting will be open for 72 hours), and hit the comments to justify your picks.

If you’re wondering what criteria we used to pick our players, we cast our net rather wide — including fellas who are dark and a little bit dangerous, truly good guys with naughty, maybe even promiscuous streaks, and actual evildoers who are nevertheless tough to root against. (We also put a cap of two cast members per show for the bracket, which meant some fan favorites had to warm the bench this time around.)

Angel was tall, dark, mysterious, angsty, brooding, with a desire for redemption
AND
tall, dark, mischevious, a bad-ass evil with a flair for torture & manipulation in his Angelus incarnation.

Best of two worlds: Angel/Angelus was the most complex male hero in Buffy/Angelverse.
It’s the reason Joss Whedon & Co. decided to give the spinoff to him as the lead. There was a spinoff show only for Angel. And it lasted for 5 years.

There was supposed to be one for Faith, and would have if Eliza Dushku hadn’t decided to do Tru Calling instead. There were also plans for a Giles (Ripper) spinoff or movie, and a Spike movie – after the end of BtVS.

Angel was a really interesting character on AtS – less so on BtVS, but let’s face it, the other reason why he got a spinoff, besides being an interesting character, is that they really didn’t know what to do with him in BtVS after season 2 – even in season 3 he was mostly doing nothing – and he wasn’t nearly as interesting on BtVS as Buffy’s love interest as he was later on AtS, where they could do so much more with him. On the other hand, Spike, just like Willow, had great development and arc on BtVS, so I always see Spike as a BtVS character first and foremost, and Angel as an AtS character.

Anyway, Angel is a great character, I love him a lot… I just love Spike more. ;)

* Whedon saw Angel as the character with the biggest potential for popular success, and Boreanaz as the one who could carry his own show as a leading man * Turns out, he was right.

* Joss could have given Spike/Masters his own show when ‘Angel’ ended. Masters was willing to do it * Whedon, the Network and the Studio decided not to. TV producers have a keen eye: they know who, what may be a success and who, what won’t.

* Fact is: a decade after, Boreanaz is the most successful TV actor (man) from Buffy and Angel. (as Fillion is from Firefly).

Joss wanted to have an Angel spinoff for a long time before it happened. Because of David Boreanaz’s performance in “I Only Have Eyes For You” in season 2, Joss said that he wanted David to have his own series.
Angel’s story arc in Season 3 was not him “mostly doing nothing.” He had such tremendous obstacles to overcome after coming back from Hell and two more things:
1) The Scoobies never would have been able to take down the mayor without Angel
2) His emotional journey through Season 3 really set up for his character’s journey in the Angel spinoff

Yes, I like Spike and think that he had a great arc on the show, but he had nowhere near the mystery, heart of gold, and sex appeal that Angel did.
Spike’s great and super funny…..but I will always love Angel more. And his past as Angelus combined with his tortured path to redemption is what makes him the ultimate bad boy in my eyes.

@lisa- Marsters was offered LOTS of series he turned down in the immediate aftermath of Angel because he didn’t want to be away from his son for months at a time. His ex-wife lives in Los Angeles, so series offers for series to be shot in say, Toronto, he turned down because he didn’t want to miss his son growing up. His son is college-age now so Marsters is finally free to take any role he wants. I’m proud of him for putting family first.

@Lisa.
Way to make this about the actors’ personal life, something none of us can really know, thereby draw accurate conclusions on. Congrats on being a moron. *Sigh*

David Boreanaz and James Marsters are both fabulous actors which is why, after all these years, we still debate Spike vs Angel. Ultimately, it just comes down to personal preference. I love both of them. They both yearn to redeem themselves and approach it from different places in themselves and with different motives. I happen to fall on Spike’s side in the Spike vs Angel debate but that doesn’t take anything away from Angel being an in-depth and fascinating character.

Joss also thought Kennedy was a fine character and thought Kennedy/Willow should be the one happy couple when BtVS ended. He came up with dreck like S7 of BtVS and S4 of AtS. And oh yeah, Dollhouse. The guy is good, he isn’t god. Joss’ opinions/tastes are not infallible.

Angel IS Angelus, it’s called a dichotomy.
And Michael Slezak probably thought about Angelus, the ultimate bad guy, when he put his name in this poll, ’cause Angel was the good guy trying to atone for his evil alter-ego’s sins.

I’m pretty sure that “Angel” means both Angel and Angelus (c’mon, they ARE the same guy). We aren’t differentiating between soulless and souled Spike here, are we? So why would we for Angel?

And you’re really wrong, Angel has proven he can be really bad with a soul – have you watched AtS seasons 2-5? In fact, Angel has done far more problematic things with soul than Spike has while he has had a soul.

Yes, I’ve seen every episode of BtVS and Angel. But I don’t think Angel and Angelus are the same. There is a huge metaphysical discussion to be had about whether the soul makes a person who they are, but I’m not going to go into it in these comments. Just know that I’ve decided a soul does make a person, so to me Angelus and Angel are not the same person. Spike went by the same name, but when I voted for him, I was thinking of soul-less Spike.

I agree. If this was spike vs angelus id have gone for angelus…angel was too busy brooding over the past and feeling sorry for all his wrongs….much like the season7 spike….shall we blame buffy for the fall of spike? But yeah….id vote angelus over all but spike over angel because spike got over it in s5 of angel

I love David Boreanaz, but sorry, man. Spike was just WAY better. Angel was always either evil, the kicked puppy, or a controlling jerk. Spike was often evil, too, but he was hilarious! His character went through the most transformation throughout the series. Spike was awesome! (And let’s face it. Those cheekbones are to die for!)

BANGEL was the most gothic romantic vampire lovestory of the ’90 and the source of inspiration for Meyer’s ‘Twilight’ and Harris’ ‘True Blood’. BANGEL made history as far as vampire stories go. Angel-Buffy is the classic starcrossed love, Spike-Buffy is just a twisted variation, not the original. Not to mention trying to rape Buffy made the cool Spike absolutely the biggest douchebag jerk in Whedonworld.

“BANGEL was the most gothic romantic vampire lovestory of the ’90 and the source of inspiration for Meyer’s ‘Twilight’ ”

If that’s true, it’s hardly something to brag about, you know… ;-)

“Angel-Buffy is the classic starcrossed love, Spike-Buffy is just a twisted variation, not the origina”

Spike/Buffy is far more original, interesting, complex, more mature, edgier, riskier and deeper than Bangel ever was. (In Joss Whedon’s words, Angel/Buffy was a “classic kiddie romance”.) I liked Angel/Buffy as a story of a doomed first love gone wrong, but Spike/Buffy went so much further than that, exploring the very nature of love and sexuality, unlike Angel/Buffy which was about that teenage love when you fall for someone without even knowing them all that well.

And, for that matter, Angel/Darla on AtS was also much more interesting than Angel/Buffy.

“Not to mention trying to rape Buffy made the cool Spike absolutely the biggest douchebag jerk in Whedonworld.”

Really? So it’s worse than Angel murdering people, including Jenny Calendar, torturing Giles physically and mentally, intentionally tormenting Buffy for months by hurting and threatening her friends and family, and trying to destroy the world? Spike without a soul never came anywhere near being such an evil douchebag jerk that Angel was Not to mention that Spike felt guilty for the attempted rape and went to GET himself a soul and fought for it, which made him the more evolved character (in the words of Joss Whedon) than Angel – who hated the idea of being re-souled and killed Jenny to prevent it. And who was CURSED with a soul, both times – he never choose to have it while he was soulless (but did intentionally try to lose it once while he was souled, in AtS season 2).

Read Whedon’s statements, listen to Masters on youtube: Spike’s attempted rape on Buffy was meant to show how bad Spike was for her, that Spuffy was wrong. Masters himself said it on many occasions that Spike was the horrible boyfriend and theoretically Angel should have been Buffy’s choice in the end. Check youtube. Fans delusions are shattered by Masters himself and he is fully aware of.

It doesn’t matter what anybody says because the creator of the show himself has gone on record saying Spuffy is the preferred romance in the show. WHEDON IS HIS OWN WORDS:

Asked in an interview which of Buffy’s relationship he preferred, Joss Whedon said: “You know what, I liked Spike. With Angel it’s too “Romeo and Juliet”. Which means, as soon as it happens you’re bored. Riley, you know he was a well-adjusted person who loved her in a much, much healthier way than the other two guys. Nobody wants to see that. With Buffy and Spike, they had a real Beatrice and Benedick kind of relationship, in “Much Ado About Nothing”

Sorry Bangel fans but this is straight from the horses mouth. Spuffy FTW!

Master’s opinion isn’t the one true fact. He is entitled to have his feelings about the relationship, but he didn’t write the show. Don’t totally disagree with whatever he may have said, but I stil prefer Buffy & Spike over Buffy & Angel.

Have you actually WATCHED the shows? Because you’re forgetting
A. Vampires raped and killed girls, that was in their nature. Angel and Spike were no exceptions. Of course I’m talking about the era before Buffy.
B. Angel, according to the California law (and Buffy was living in California) RAPED and underage girl. Buffy was 17 and he shouldn’t have taken advantage of her, since she wasn’t an adualt.
C. Angel, according to the writer of the episode and the commentaries, actually raped Darla. The didn’t exactly show it to us, because they were scared of what something like that could have done to the reputation of the show and of course its numbers.

Spike-Angel was actually a tie – mainly because Boreanaz was in deep pain from the knee surgery and couldn’t do the fight at his best abilities. James Masters told the story many times at comic cons and applauded David B. for doing the fight as best as he could under so much pain.

Spike-Angelus, on the other hand, never really happened. Or else Spike would have been turned to dust in a matter of seconds.

LOL what? You do understand that it was fiction, right, and that Angel is not Boreanaz and he wasn’t really fighting with Marsters – that they were acting? And that some people wrote a script for them to act? Angel lost because the story was about Angel losing (in fact, it was David Fury who suggested that Angel had to lose that fight). If the story had been about Angel winning, he would have. What does any of that have to do with Boreanaz’s physical condition? If those were really fights, Sarah Michelle Gellar would be getting her ass kicked all the time by the big guys whose ass she’s kicking because the script says so. It’s not like Buffy’s or Angel’s or Spike’s physical strength depends on the strength of the actors who play them!

“Spike-Angelus, on the other hand, never really happened. Or else Spike would have been turned to dust in a matter of seconds.”

Actually they used to fight all the time when they were soulless. But oh wait, that was actually Spikelus-Angelus, right? ;-) Because neither of them had a soul at the time. You’re right that “Angelus” – “souled Spike” never happened, but I have no idea why that’s important.

And you’re just being silly with “Spike would have been turned to dust in a matter of seconds.” Unless you have a crystal ball, Angel(us) just as well might have been turned to dust in a matter of seconds. It’s not like Angel (Angelus, whatever) was ever shown to be a better fighter than Spike.

Excuse me………….. Are you aware it was a STAGE fight with STUNT DOUBLES. DBs injuries or lack of had nothing to do with it. It was WRITTEN that he bloody lost.. These are NOT real entities youknow, they’re ACTORS following a SCRIPT.

Spike was charming and sexy and strangely lovable even when he was at his most evil. Angel as “Angelus” was just an utter evil jerkwad without an ounce of likeability. With evil soulless Spike, it was “why do I like him so much when I shouldn’t?” while with Angelus, I just felt “DIE DIE DIE!”

Spike was also tortured and forbidden fruit, only in a more interesting way, he was never either the guy who broods or the eeeevil guy, he could be funny and scary and annoying and sweet and murderous and loving and vulnerable and snarky and sexy and sappy and silly and smart and bad and good- all AT THE SAME time, within the same episode or even the same scene. He could be a punk rebel and a dorky Victorian poet and a dark demonic lover one moment and a bloke who’s into watching soaps the next one…He was a far more unconventional and unpredictable character than Angel.

Angel, IMO, was at his best when he wasn’t the “broody do-gooder” cliche or the superevil superjerk, but when he was more morally ambiguous, as in AtS after season 1 (particularly in season 2).

You are delusional when you say “Angel as “Angelus” was just an utter evil jerkwad without an ounce of likeability”.

This is NOT what a few MILLIONS of viewers felt. During season 2 of BtVS, Angelus became the most popular character, the charming but chilling “evildoer who is nevertheless tough to root against” :D. People were crazy about him.

The moment “Buffy” became an undeniable success was the two-parter episode in which Angel “loses his soul in Buffy” and becomes Angelus – one of the best twists in modern TV history. It was the moment when BtVS peaked and the reason “Innocence/Surprise” are on Whedon’s favorite episodes list.

Nobody wanted Angelus to die, everybody (except Xander and you ;) ) wanted Willow to succeed in reverting him to Angel. Hence the heartwrenching moment in the finale when Buffy has no choice but run the sword through him in order to stop Acathla.

Well and there are the facts that season 3 and season 2 of Buffy were the highest rated in it’s run. Ya know, the ones with Angel. And the Spike heavy seasons of 5, 6 and 7 were not. And the fact fact the big Spike and Spuffy redemption tour that was S7 was the series’s lowest rated season. Lower even than the first season.

So seems like in terms of interest, just by overall numbers, the Angel years were better ratings wise, than the Spike years. No judgement, just numbers.

Agreed! People always forget about that chip. If Spike never got the chip in his head he never would have fallen in “love” with Buffy or tried to get his soul back.
And that is why I will always pick Angel over Spike. I get frustrated when people say “But Spike is better because he CHOSE to get his soul back”
Spike wanted to be the big bad, always. But sadly he was neutered and could no longer do so. So he joined the Scoobies for survival which broke him down to the Spike who saved the world.
Don’t get me wrong, I still love Spike and I ADORE James Marsters. But I love Angel/Angelus much better.
When Angel turns into Angelus, he is the nastiest, coldest, most evil SOB in the world. Spike’s lines of good/bad blur around the boundaries of soul/no soul and this is why I believe he is a “watered down” bad boy.

I also believe that the only reason Spike went to get his soul back is because Buffy was head over heels in love with Angel who had a soul. He knew that a soulless baddie like him wouldn’t get her to be with him. So, as he said, he was giving her “what she deserves”
And even that didn’t really work in the end. Yes, she cared for him a lot and he gave her much comfort but even Spike admits that she doesn’t love him “but thanks for saying it.”

It is ALWAYS Spike! The moment he stepped out of his car in “School Hard,” I said: “Oh sweet Lord! Angel who? I want HIM!” I never looked back; I’m a die-hard Spike girl, but I won’t go on and on about the Big Bad turned Champion by CHOICE. ‘Nuff said.

Totally Sylar over Rumples! He had the evil AND the crazy, with TONS of both! And it doesn’t hurt that he’s a hot kind of dangerous… ;)

Spike, a man from the Victorian era who went mad because of his dying mother so goes on a rampage and kills people by driving railroad spikes through their head, then he gets sired by his insane girlfriend and becomes one of the coolest vampires ever who kills a bunch of slayers… Simples.

This is actually a common misconception. Whedon made a point to show how historical documents are a twisty cavern of half truths. As a vampire, William adopted the name Spike; Giles believed that both the nickname and his former title as “William the Bloody” derived from his practice of torturing people with railroad spikes. The episode Fool for Love reveals the true origin of these nicknames: one listener to William’s poem in the flashback comments that he would rather have a railroad spike driven through his head than listen to any of William’s poetry, and notes that William is referred to as “William the Bloody” because of his “bloody” awful poetry. Regardless of the comical origins of his name, it is implied that Spike may have literally acted upon the violent allusions as revenge once he became a vampire.

That doesn’t mean that he didn’t get his name for driving railroad spikes through people’s heads. We just know that he decided to call himself Spike. Yeah, the guy said he’d rather have a railroad spike driven through his head than listen to any of William’s poetry, but how would the Watchers know that?

I’ll tell you how I think they knew that: William learned what that guy was saying about him, and when he became a vampire, one of the first things he did was get revenge on people who mocked him as a human (we saw in the flashback that he told Drusilla they would show those people now). I think he probably found that guy and said “So… you said you’d rather have a railroad spike driven through your head, eh? Wish granted!”…

Angelus was the baddest but Angel was just a bit whiney…spike was bad but in a funny way…he was after all Angelus’ prodigy…spike had soul even without one….Angel..weeeeell….hit and a miss…funny tho…but thats down to the great Joss Whedon….hail Joss

spike all the way. although angelus was the best buffy villain ever- angel was SO much more entertaining as angelus. he was so evil even soulless spike hated him! but i’d still want to hang out with spike, with or without a soul, lol

Spike was definitely a bad boy thru and thru. He knew he was bad. He told Buffy once ” you know what I am, who I am.” Angel was good. He could be bad ass. Angelus was the bad one. He didn’t care who he hurt. He took pleasure in it. Come to think of it spike had more of a soul before he actually got one than Angelus ever did. Spike learned to be good even before the soul. But he still retained his badass attitude :)

Spike runs right in front, away from the Angel. After he met Buffy, Angel became a good boy. Spike not. He even fell in love with Buffy, remained a very bad boy, very sarcastic, quarrelsome and dangerous vampire in the neighborhood. Spike has always been a bad boy!

Why is Angel against Spike already?! This is pure nonesense. It should be one of the last ten rounds or something, jeez. Also, where the hell is Wesley?! Did anyone see the badass transformation he went through? Anyhow, Spike, hands down.

Spike! Why ate angel fans so bitchy on spike and over the top? Oh yeah Cas they 13. Angel was crap Cas the acting for first 3 series was not as good as later it just wasn’t even producers and writers and fans admit it was bad but so bad it was funny. Angel fancied a vapid air head buffy spike loved a strong tortured powerful woman who had to face dibs and real world loss that made her hard but a real person. Spike loved buffy through his evil and fought to be a better man. Angelus was far more evil and yet never as funny or able to read people like spike who was bad sweet and funny angel was never funny. Spike appealed to women older than 16 who liked buffy later angel is typical pretty teen pop boy and that’s just really true, feature wise masters is genetically superior they look same age in series 5 angel but marsters is over 10 years older than David. Look how much weigh David gained vomited aren’t meant to be ageless.

Besides being illiterate, Carissa seems also retarded: How could any fans of Buffy, Angel etc.etc. be… 13? The series started in 1997 (probably way before Carissa was born ;) ), meaning 15 years ago!! If they were teens at the time, they are in their late 20s or early 30s now.
The statements make no sense whatsoever, it’s just a grammar complete mess. Like Carissa’s mind.

Not defending the grammar, but it’s not as if BtVS and AtS aren’t readily available on DVD. They still pick up new fans all the time (the thirteen-year-old son of a friend of mine recently became a huge Buffy fan). So yes, today’s teens can still be Buffyverse fans. The ones with good taste, that is.

And as for Rumple vs Sylar… I thought Rumple would win easily. Zachary Quinto was great in the role, but let’s face it, much as I loved him in Heroes, the writing for his character made no sense whatsoever. Or writing for any character, for that matter.

On the other hand, Rumplestilskin/Gold is great all around, well-written and superbly acted.

Finally, someone with some sense. Sylar is probably the lamest major villain on any show I’ve ever watched as an adult. So he murdered a bunch of people and felt guilty about it in two episodes. He’s just a murderer with an inferiority complex, just like Akira. A bad boy’s redeeming qualities are supposed to offset their negative ones.

Angelus was the ultimate bad boy… vampire… which is EXACTLY what this poll is about
Just as per TV Line’s description: “we cast our net rather wide — including fellas who are dark and a little bit dangerous, truly good guys with naughty, maybe even promiscuous streaks, AND ACTUAL EVILDOERS WHO ARE NEVERTHELESS TOUGH TO ROOT AGAINST” . It’s virtually Angelus description.

I found Angelus very entertaining but I never had the slightest trouble rooting against him, considering that he was usually trying to destroy the world, and/or murder Buffy’s (or Angel’s) friends one by one…

Angel, Angelus – same guy. Nobody is asking “is it soulless or souled Spike”, so why make the distinction with Angel?

(For the record, everyone on the show kept calling soulless Angel “Angel” in season 2 – it’s only in season 3 “Enemies” that they started the habit of calling his soulless alter ego/version “Angelus”.)

Honestly, it’s all a personal preference but I look at it like this: Would you rather be with a painfully earnest, dramatic (some say melodramatic), brooding, occasionally evil, melancholy guy who treats you like you’re the only thing that matters? Or, would you be with a guy who like to have fun, is frequently self-destructive, impulsive, has poor decision making skills but is (apparently) insane in the sack and loves you to distraction? 6 one way half a dozen another, in my opinion…Also Angel is insipid, wears lifts and has stupid hair.

Had to go for Rumpelstiltskin on this one. Sylar goes beyond being bad to just being truly psychopathic and frightening. And I have a soft spot in my heart for Robert Carlysle ever since The Full Monty. Plus his character just feels a bit more layered to me than Sylar ever was.