She sure is a great singer. I've never thought someone has a terrible singing voice just because they're ugly. Just look at my old music teacher! The sad thing is that people like this don't get famous just because they aren't the best looking, it really doesn't matter about your voice. It's all about the eye candy in the music industry which is very shallow. I've never actually seen a female fronted rock/metal (or otherwise) band where the singer is not really fit. That's because all the ugly female singers haven't made it because no one wants to watch a band where the singer is ugly. Maybe the world would have been a better place if MTV had never existed.

The sad thing is that people like this don't get famous just because they aren't the best looking, it really doesn't matter about your voice. It's all about the eye candy. Maybe the world would have been a better place if MTV had never existed.

I think Eddie, you touched upon an important and much much larger point about society in general.

There is such a powerful unwritten societal code about looking good, dressing well, being articulate and presentable. Being 'TV- friendly', 'Sound-bite friendly' at the expense of depth and quality and integrity is quite easily acceptable by us all.

We seem to glorify shallowness and instant gratification.

Has Paris Hilton cut a CD yet? I'll bet she'll sell a few hundred thousand copies more than ol mum in the clip with the same marketing team.

I think Eddie, you touched upon an important and much much larger point about society in general.

There is such a powerful unwritten societal code about looking good, dressing well, being articulate and presentable. Being 'TV- friendly', 'Sound-bite friendly' at the expense of depth and quality and integrity is quite easily acceptable by us all.

We seem to glorify shallowness and instant gratification.

Has Paris Hilton cut a CD yet? I'll bet she'll sell a few hundred thousand copies more than ol mum in the clip with the same marketing team.

Who says life is unfair. Its unpardonable.

........

Yes, she has. I think it did quite well. But look at William Hung. There is a whole population of people who are not the prettitest, and who aren't hung up on shallow superficialities, so there is a huge market if it is marketed right. He did quite well and he didn't even have any talent.

To my understanding Susan Boyle has been offered a record contract, and I think that she will do quite well because she has touched on a very huge nerve. It's not only here appearance, it's her age. Look at the way Simon looks when she says she is 47. And it is also the fact that here is a woman with not only a pretty voice but a very unique voice that has just never been given a chance. Most of the people can identify with that, a lot more than any other marketing scheme that someone can come up with; it is real. Reality could be a powerful thing if people would give it a chance.

Yes, she has. I think it did quite well. But look at William Hung. There is a whole population of people who are not the prettitest, and who aren't hung up on shallow superficialities, so there is a huge market if it is marketed right. He did quite well and he didn't even have any talent.

Well yeah i grant you there are a few ugly famous people in bands, but they're mostly men. I was really on about women more. As i said, try to find an ugly FEMALE singer. There are certainly none that i can see in our "female rock voices" thread. Also most of the female singers we have are in their 20s and 30s, some are even still teenagers. you have a few people like madonna who is getting on a bit, but she certainly doesn't look it! Yes you could market a turd as a BMW and get £20 grand for it but the point is that sex makes the marketing man's job a hell of a lot easier.

Quote:

To my understanding Susan Boyle has been offered a record contract, and I think that she will do quite well because she has touched on a very huge nerve. It's not only here appearance, it's her age. Look at the way Simon looks when she says she is 47. And it is also the fact that here is a woman with not only a pretty voice but a very unique voice that has just never been given a chance. Most of the people can identify with that, a lot more than any other marketing scheme that someone can come up with; it is real. Reality could be a powerful thing if people would give it a chance.

Yeah okay so she got a contract, but that's just because people felt bad about prejudging her. It's like the fact that we give loads of money to charity on red nose day and world vision day or whatever but we would never do that normally. It doesn't change the fact africa owes us 4x more than we give them in charity or that most people seem to think we should just let them die. If this woman had tried to "make it" through the normal channels of music then she'd have been laughed off stage/out of the studio.

And aydee i agree with you. We were talking about this in english once about how in the news, the men don't have to be particularly good looking and can wear a suit whereas the women have to have loads of make up and wear some bright dress and be about 30 or whatever.

Yeah okay so she got a contract, but that's just because people felt bad about prejudging her. It's like the fact that we give loads of money to charity on red nose day and world vision day or whatever but we would never do that normally. It doesn't change the fact africa owes us 4x more than we give them in charity or that most people seem to think we should just let them die. If this woman had tried to "make it" through the normal channels of music then she'd have been laughed off stage/out of the studio.

And aydee i agree with you. We were talking about this in english once about how in the news, the men don't have to be particularly good looking and can wear a suit whereas the women have to have loads of make up and wear some bright dress and be about 30 or whatever.

I think that you miss the point, and that is there is more than appearance to market. Many years ago some pretty 20 something was on VH-1. she said, "People shouldn't complain that the music industry is youth oriented because 33% of the record buying public are under 25." Well, duh, what about the other 67%. Do you really think that a 65 yeard old woman buying a CD cares how pretty the singer is? There are whole segments of the population that are forgotten, and after all, isn't that what art is about? Communicating to people? In a world that is on the verge of financial ruin while celebrities and CEO's making millions and governments balance their budgets on the backs of working people, I think a message that we are not giving everybody a chance to participate is a lot more powerful than meets the eye.

I think that you miss the point, and that is there is more than appearance to market. Many years ago some pretty 20 something was on VH-1. she said, "People shouldn't complain that the music industry is youth oriented because 33% of the record buying public are under 25." Well, duh, what about the other 67%. Do you really think that a 65 yeard old woman buying a CD cares how pretty the singer is? There are whole segments of the population that are forgotten, and after all, isn't that what art is about? Communicating to people? In a world that is on the verge of financial ruin while celebrities and CEO's making millions and governments balance their budgets on the backs of working people, I think a message that we are not giving everybody a chance to participate is a lot more powerful than meets the eye.

I think you've not listened to a single thing i said. I already explained that there are a lot of ugly people in music, usually more "real" music like metal and acoustic. The fact is though, that they're all men. The fact is, a woman doesn't stand a chance in the industry unless they're a demi-godess in terms of looks. The voice is pretty much irrelavent.
As for music that older people buy, well i think that a large proportion of it will probably be older music but of course older people will buy new music as well. However, that's irrelavent. You'd be surprised at how middle aged and older people can be just as shallow as teenagers and twenty-somethings. Maybe some older people would be more inclined to buy records from a less good looking singer. But think about it, they're not exactly not going to buy new music just because the singer is a piece. So why would the record companies alienate the younger and shallower people (who are not all young people by any means) just to sell to an older market. And think about it this way as well: how many record companies would want to say "we make music for OLD people!" Don't think so, somehow.

If you think that an ugly woman can make it as a performing musician, then i think you're being very naiive. It's like me or you being a solo drummer trying to make it, the general record-buying public just aren't interested. It would be great if everyone was more like the people on here, and appriciated music for the actual musical talent and creativity rather than what they look like and how much money their hotel chain owner daddy has but the fact is that 90% of the music buying public are NOT. As i've said talent is marketable, but sex is a hell of a lot morseo and that means more money for the record companies.

I
If you think that an ugly woman can make it as a performing musician, then i think you're being very naiive. It's like me or you being a solo drummer trying to make it, the general record-buying public just aren't interested. It would be great if everyone was more like the people on here, and appriciated music for the actual musical talent and creativity rather than what they look like and how much money their hotel chain owner daddy has but the fact is that 90% of the music buying public are NOT. As i've said talent is marketable, but sex is a hell of a lot morseo and that means more money for the record companies.

Me being navie, now there's a new criticism.

Do you know that many of the major television networks in the states are trying to get this woman on their shows? What does it mean to make it? Your idea of making it will be very different than the next guys idea of making it. Working as a musician for many is making it. Here in NY I go see top ranked talent in small dives with 50 people watching them. Have they made it? Charlie Parker was one fo 'those guys.' Too bad he never made it.

A wealth of creative potential is squandered because people cannot think out of the box, and then they claim as naive those that can.

Do you know that many of the major television networks in the states are trying to get this woman on their shows? What does it mean to make it? Your idea of making it will be very different than the next guys idea of making it. Working as a musician for many is making it. Here in NY I go see top ranked talent in small dives with 50 people watching them. Have they made it? Charlie Parker was one fo 'those guys.' Too bad he never made it.

A wealth of creative potential is squandered because people cannot think out of the box, and then they claim as naive those that can.

I think you are being naiive. Just because one woman has been signed from coming on BGT who isn't the best looking, you think that somehow that signals a change in the entire music industry from being shallow and sex driven, to being proper talent making real music, regardless of looks? I don't think so.

I think you don't quite see where i'm coming from here, I would absolutely love it if the music industry was about proper people making proper music. I'm on the same side as you here. The difference is that i'm being a bit more realistic. All i'm saying is that the music industry is heavily comerciallised, I'm insulted quite frankly that you think value music for anything but creativity and originality and talent, I would love to see the current music industry stop being about sex and be about music for a change but the fact is that's it's gonna take a lot more to change the minds of the 95% of people who don't care about proper music. That's why i think you're being naiive.

The female judge, Amanda?, put it best. It was a privilege to hear her sing. Where has she been hiding, and Razor you took the words out of my mouth, as I watched the clip before reading any of the posts, one cannot tell a book by its cover. Todays lesson has been taught. There will be a quiz every day for the rest of your life. Don't fail.

__________________
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Yeah guys, but charisma will trump looks every time. Janis Joplin was the prime example of that.

Great point. I kept thinking of Janis too while reading this thread. KD Lang is another amazing talent that comes to mind.

A lot of blame seems to get heaped on the music industry and certainly some of it is deserved, but I tend to look more at the public that is actually spending the money. If they didn't speak with those dollars then maybe the industry wouldn't be what it is. I don't have the power to control everything the music industry does but I do control where my money is spent and I'm careful to support what I consider to be good artists.

Maybe it's kind of like the papparazzi that everyone loves to hate. They get portrayed as parasites feeding off of invading celebrity's privacy, but would they be doing that if millions of people weren't wasting their money on ridiculous tabloids?

I think you are being naiive. Just because one woman has been signed from coming on BGT who isn't the best looking, you think that somehow that signals a change in the entire music industry from being shallow and sex driven, to being proper talent making real music, regardless of looks? I don't think so..

No, I am not being naive. You seem not to be able to comprehend that you are stating the obvious. The whole reason why this is an issue is because of the way the industry is and the way historically woman have been treated in the industry. You also don't seem to understand that you are not thinking out of the contraints of your own value system.

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Originally Posted by Pavlos

Great point. I kept thinking of Janis too while reading this thread. KD Lang is another amazing talent that comes to mind.

A lot of blame seems to get heaped on the music industry and certainly some of it is deserved, but I tend to look more at the public that is actually spending the money. If they didn't speak with those dollars then maybe the industry wouldn't be what it is. I don't have the power to control everything the music industry does but I do control where my money is spent and I'm careful to support what I consider to be good artists.

Maybe it's kind of like the papparazzi that everyone loves to hate. They get portrayed as parasites feeding off of invading celebrity's privacy, but would they be doing that if millions of people weren't wasting their money on ridiculous tabloids?

I was thinking of KD as well, and there are a whole host of woman in the lesbain community who would fit that bill, and woman buy the product. In the days of Holly Near and Meg Christian, the idea of a woman in music was still a bit taboo never mind a lesbian. What about a person with a disabiltiy, a person with autism, Parkinson's?

So is it the pubilc or is it the media, or is it the industry. It's a great question. It reminds me of the line in The American President where the asst, Michael J. Fox, says that people drink sand in the desert because nobody is offering them water, and The prez, Michael Douglas, says "they drink the sand because they don't know the difference."

I think you need to have creative marketing. It would be nice if the the industry were socially responsible. Why in this day and age have we not cultivated the value that enterprises need to have a sense of social responsibilty? From where I am standing, that seems to be a given.

look more at the public that is actually spending the money. If they didn't speak with those dollars then maybe the industry wouldn't be what it is. I don't have the power to control everything the music industry does but I do control where my money is spent and I'm careful to support what I consider to be good artists.

Maybe it's kind of like the papparazzi that everyone loves to hate. They get portrayed as parasites feeding off of invading celebrity's privacy, but would they be doing that if millions of people weren't wasting their money on ridiculous tabloids?

Good comment. The issue really is "whats coming at the public ?" Is everything thats out there really within your reach?

And the "what" is controlled by powerful vested interests who are singularily interested in getting the biggest bang for their buck.

Ideally one would want to live in a system ( applies to any system actually-our schools, universities, science research, music, art, finance... etc etc ) that has a filtration mechanism that encourages the quality to rise to the top. And encourages the new, the unfamiliar, the uncomfortable..
Now thats a progressive,creative setting.

But when opportunism grabs at the possibilities and manipulates the system, squeezing out and killing everything thats not a sure bet, then everything gets messed up as we saw recently on Wall Street.

Sure there are exceptions to every theory and for every 20 Paris Hiltons there will be a Norah Jones.
Nevertheless, our avenues to discover 'new music' are also largely controlled by the same people who produced Paris Hilton in all likelihood. The digital medium circumvents that to some extent, but not entirely.

Your point about paparazzism is a good one too, but with an ethical twist to it. There is profit to be made by the exploitation of all basic human instincts.

No, I am not being naive. You seem not to be able to comprehend that you are stating the obvious. The whole reason why this is an issue is because of the way the industry is and the way historically woman have been treated in the industry. You also don't seem to understand that you are not thinking out of the contraints of your own value system.

I really don't get it, you seem to have absolutely no grasp of reality whatsoever, yet you seem to think it's me who is being closed-minded? I'd love it if there was no prejudice or discrimination in the world. I'd think it was great if pain and wars didn't exists. I'd be over the moon if the next party to get into no 10 was someone other than labour or tories. But guess what? The 60's are over, man. Martin Luther King Jr is dead. Prejudice is still very much alive and it's going to be with us as long as we're all still humans on this earth. If you seriously think that some stupid TV show is going to change 95% of people's opinions of women being nothing more than sex objects then fine but don't accuse me of having a closed mind because i think you're the one with the problem in your thinking here, "dude".

This is just a bad try to copy or remake the Paul Potts sensation two years ago - who brought everyone to tears.

Even the judges are the same - and the same surprise in their faces, when singing starts.

Very lame - the singing is really not very special - historical moments can't be reproduced - as ugly as someone might look...lol.

Ah, your a cynical man Bernhard - but I wholeheartedly agree. It's also very amusing to read all these personal revalations; everyone's suddenly realising it's wrong to judge a book by it's cover. I'm sure they're back doing it ten minutes later.

This is just a bad try to copy or remake the Paul Potts sensation two years ago - who brought everyone to tears.

Even the judges are the same - and the same surprise in their faces, when singing starts.

Very lame - the singing is really not very special - historical moments can't be reproduced - as ugly as someone might look...lol.

The moment was marketed, yes, that is the idea. The clip is art in itself from that perspective, one part truth, one part manipulation. Everything from the viewing of the audience and Simon's facial expressions to the way the choice of song and now the way the story is told is controlled. How do we know any of it is true? Does it matter?

There are parts in this video that you just can't script lke when she innocently walks off the stage after singing and then gets called back and kind of climbs back to her spot with those large horse like steps not missing a breadth. The fact that she doesn't collapse when she gets this roaring ovation is also classic. she maintains her poise. It is her moment. she bring th audience in to it and takes them with her. .

I think that the singing is special in the sense that she is an unadulterated talent. It is just a unique natural voice. Very akin to the Alan Lomax idea where he went into the back woods of America and found these pure, uncultivated talents and brought them back for Folkways records. They are going to continue to market her that way, as a small town girl who took care of her aging mother, never had a date nor was ever kissed and was not ever given a chance, and people can really relate to that no matter what she looks like, esp in these days of political and economic curruption. In that sense, creative marketing can be very affective and be an art in itself.

The story is not unique. the same thing happened here in NY after 9/11 where there was a fireman, don't remember his name, and he wanted to be a singer. He sang at the 9/11 memorial and it launched his career. He really wan't anything special either.

Everything from the viewing of the audience and Simon's facial expressions to the way the choice of song and now the way the story is told is controlled. How do we know any of it is true? Does it matter?

There are parts in this video that you just can't script .

Again, Deltadrummer, i'm not sure if you saw the original clip with Paul Potts:

Well, it's not really a copy; but the formula for these shows is pretty well-scripted. You have the person with no talent who thinks they have talent, the person who needs to be molded, and the person who just blows everyone away. The thing I liked about Susan Boyle was that of all the people I've heard on these shows, even the winners and Paul Potts, she was the first person that ever sang in pitch. :) (besides the lower range, which could have just been from singing in pubilc. The adrenaline raises the range of the voice. See all the maketing and not one person who had the knowledge of the human voice to tell her that. )

I dislike these types of shows and I never watch them! They are seeded and scripted for the amusement of the audience. To me it is a far cry from the billing of "Reality TV".

I think we would be remiss to not say that these shows offer people the promise of instant success. But the idea of being a drumer or an opera singer for example, and not wanting to put in the years of training, sacrifice and study that it requires to really cultivate the art seems a bit short-sided. It's like those studetns who want to study drums but don't want to buy a book, to do any exercises and don't want listen to what anyone else says. They don't understand why you just can't make them sound like David Silveria or Brann Dailor. "Sorry, I forgot my magic wand today." :)

I'm surprised it hasn't been exported over there. It's one of the simon cowell PLC judge shows. It's really just as crap as all the others. Defnietly not got the "X factor" as far as i'm concerned (sorry)