Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the
world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to
over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a
wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history,
humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced
features available, you will need to register first. Registration is
absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them

Or is could be using their idea of what is happening to blend with them.

I train in aikido. Aikido principles, including mind and body being one, happen in every sport and activity everyday. Human beings thrive because they have learned to be fully present and active and alive in the moment.

Aikido training enhances movement as do other activities.

In a free style with 5 ukes or even 3 ukes, it is best to be nage the whole time. By this I mean being the leader...not controlling the situation yet allowing it to happen in a way so it is beneficial for all involved. To extend ki, have a quiet,open mind and let the event happen. Brute strength and forcing will on others works for some...I prefer blending and moving with my ukes.

Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them

Quote:

David Soroko wrote:

I think you confuse information with evidence.

If you have relevant evidence please lay it out in a coherent manner in support of a clearly defined proposition. Surely its in your interest to present your case in the most clear and unambiguous way possible, why let the uninitiated wade through years and megabytes worth of information with uncertain results?

Let me point back to what I said, "Other people just state that this is their definition and when asked for any research ... Well, historically, the discussion gets turned to personalities, word definition, and them asking for spoon fed research."

So, I pointed directly to Morihei Ueshiba, the very founder of Aikido, on video, using aiki against attacker's and stated that what he is doing on video is not even remotely close to a receiver evading tackles. Two videos used to provide support for "aiki". One is an American football receiver running the ball, deliberately evading people. The other is Morihei Ueshiba, founder of Aikido, actually running towards attackers and using "soft power" to spontaneously create techniques.

Regarding "evidence"... You said:

Quote:

David Soroko wrote:

To be constructive I respectfully offer that an internet forum is not a good format to stage supporting evidence, state a position and argue it from the evidence. At this day and age it should cost about 0.0$ to establish a small web site to host all that, and it seems that there is enough cognitive firepower to create the content. There will be less ambiguities and passive aggressive "I did my research, now you do yours".

Aikiweb then can be used to openly discuss the evidence and the arguments.

I stated there is a ton of info here on Aikiweb. Failing that, there is a whole lot more on Aikido Journal and the back issues that are now on DVD in PDF format. Then you have Ellis Amdur's books. Topping all that off is Chis Li's translation blogs.

Let's go back to what you stated, "Surely its in your interest to present your case in the most clear and unambiguous way possible, why let the uninitiated wade through years and megabytes worth of information with uncertain results?"

This isn't directed at you but at the readers:
People love Cliff Notes. It saves them from doing the hard work and they can slip by with an edited, abridged version of things. Well, the Aikido World has done that for 40 + years and what has it given us? No Ueshiba's, No Shioda's, No Tomiki's, No Shirata's, No Mochizuki's, etc. Isn't it time to stop using the heavily edited version of aikido and start looking at what Morihei Ueshiba was *really* doing? If you're (plural you, not singling anyone out) just some hobbyist in aikido, sure, no need to bother. But, if you're just a hobbyist, then why are you trying to tell other people, who aren't hobbyists, what aikido is or isn't?

Back to the sujbect at hand:
Chris stated he was a professional aikido teacher. That places him in another area completely. Where did he get his definition of "aiki"? Why is it so completely different than Morihei Ueshiba's defintion of aiki?

Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them

FWIW, I have a hard time believing that if you showed Ueshiba that video or other similar videos that he wouldn't happily proclaim "Ah, that's aiki", because I watch videos of him in the last 10 or so years of his life and I see his expression of "aiki" often being quite similar. Though I fully believe that HIS aiki was based entirely on internal skills, the reality is that it is his external expression that we've all been emulating and he seemed, for the most part, ok with people working backwards towards it. Do I believe that one can really do what he was doing without first getting the internal skills? No, I do not, but I'm not entirely convinced that he was too terribly upset about those that were trying in that direction. It seems to me that his aiki, what he considered aiki, both evolved over time and was pretty leniently defined. We probably have as many examples of him giving rank and/or praise to some random person for demonstrating aiki as we do of him freaking out that "this is not my aikido". He seems to have found aiki in all sorts of places, including people using timing, deception, and external blending to off balance someone else.

I guess my point is that it's not hard to see why there are so many opinions about what aikido IS... FWIW.

Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them

A research can not be *spoon fed*, it is either presented or not. You *state* that you made a research and it seems that you are happy with your conclusions, whatever they may be - we don't know. This is not the same as *presenting* in a coherent and clear manner. Here is an example how one can go about this

The recognition of a historical problem or the identification of a need for certain historical knowledge.

The gathering of as much relevant information about the problem or topic as possible.

If appropriate, the forming of hypothesis that tentatively explain relationships between historical factors.

The rigorous collection and organization of evidence, and the verification of the authenticity and veracity of information and its sources.

The selection, organization, and analysis of the most pertinent collected evidence, and the drawing of conclusions;

Perhaps it is more accurate to say that after reading Aikido Journal, various books and blogs you formed some sort of personal opinion. There is nothing wrong with that, but don't expect people to accept your opinion as a fact.

Regarding "hobby", as in "An activity done regularly in one's leisure time for pleasure", I think that most of the members of this forum fall into this category (including you perhaps) so the remark about "hobbyist" doesn't make much sense to me.

BTW, the common theme to the videos is "leading the actions of opponents", the strategic goals are different off-course, but hopefully you can see the similarity.

Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them

Quote:

David Soroko wrote:

A research can not be *spoon fed*, it is either presented or not.

Glad you noted that. By your definition, my research has been presented. I guess I'd have to say, then, that *your* due diligence into finding my research is lacking. "your" being plural and addressing all those people who have not done the proper looking into threads here on aikiweb for this research.

Quote:

David Soroko wrote:

You *state* that you made a research and it seems that you are happy with your conclusions, whatever they may be - we don't know. This is not the same as *presenting* in a coherent and clear manner. Here is an example how one can go about this

Without actually taking the time and going through Aikiweb, how is it that you can state so clearly that the research is *not* there?

Quote:

David Soroko wrote:

Perhaps it is more accurate to say that after reading Aikido Journal, various books and blogs you formed some sort of personal opinion. There is nothing wrong with that, but don't expect people to accept your opinion as a fact.

Actually, no, it isn't a "personal opinion", but then again, you'd know that if you'd taken the time to research aikiweb for the relevent research. Or taken the time to read through the back issues of Aikido Journal, Black Belt magazine, Aikido Today, aikido books, etc. Why should we accept your opinion that you think what I've done is "personal opinion" when I've done all the research and you haven't?

Quote:

David Soroko wrote:

Regarding "hobby", as in "An activity done regularly in one's leisure time for pleasure", I think that most of the members of this forum fall into this category (including you perhaps) so the remark about "hobbyist" doesn't make much sense to me.

Let me try to clarify. Hobbyist meaning someone who trains aikido 1-2 days a week on average but puts many other things in his/her life above aikido. Someone who only trains when they go to the dojo. As opposed to professional teachers who teach aikido for a living, people who train 3 or more days a week, or people who put in training time outside the dojo trying to excel at aikido.

Quote:

David Soroko wrote:

BTW, the common theme to the videos is "leading the actions of opponents", the strategic goals are different off-course, but hopefully you can see the similarity.

Actually, there is no similarity there. The receiver does his utmost best to not get grabbed. The receiver does his best to not have physical contact. The receiver uses feints to trick defenders into stepping anywhere else than where the receiver wants to be.

Morihei Ueshiba moves to the attacker and initiates physical contact. Ueshiba uses that physical contact to direct (with "soft power") the attacker elsewhere. Ueshiba takes the attacker's power away from them such that the attacker cannot defend against Ueshiba's "soft power". There is no feint and there is no evading such that Ueshiba doesn't get touched.

The differences in the two videos are like night and day. One is Ueshiba's aiki while the other is good football strategy via athleticism. Completely and utterly different.

Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them

Quote:

David Soroko wrote:

Got it; no similarity, three times a week and "research aikiweb for the relevent research".

Just occurred to me, your research is hidden in plain site! :-)

It sort of is.

For example, Tenryu tried to push Ueshiba over and could not. Why couldn't Tenryu move Ueshiba? Ueshiba's answer was that Tenryu failed because he (Ueshiba) knew the secret of aiki. The secret of aiki is used in push tests to remain stable. Now, compare that with the video of the US football receiver. Where in all of that is there any indication of the receiver being pushed on in any manner? Secret of aiki, remember is used in push tests.

Search YouTube for Kaz Tanahashi (I think that's spelled right) and how he talks about how Saito and his people used to push on Ueshiba all the time.

Now, compare how Ueshiba viewed push tests as part of his aiki with the US football receiver dodging and evading attacker's and that definition of "aiki". The two are nowhere near each other. Hence, my posts to Chris on where he learned this definition of "aiki" as it clearly is opposite what Ueshiba has stated.

Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them

Quote:

David Soroko wrote:

I think you confuse information with evidence.

Sigh

Not really. That information is evidence if you are conversant and competent in it, you understand it.
Certain evidence in court is beyond the ability for a judge or jury to understand, so a court calls in experts to review. I have not met or seen, or have heard...of a an expert in Aikido who ever came forth to:

Explain what Ueshiba meant

Where and how it ties in to other cultural references to the same work

Why the same exact terminology keeps showing up across generations and oceans.

Demonstrate Ueshiba's exercises and show and teach how they have a dramatic effect... on the spot.

Demonstrate his power.

So ...when it comes to evidence, were that judge looking for an expert for the material we are supposedly debating, who could he go to within Aikido? In other words, our communities lack of understanding of what Ueshiba said,(by their own admission) what it meant, where it comes from and how it applies does not one thing to invalidate it as evidence does it? The only evidence that remains is that it is plainly evident that the teachers in the art do not have an answer. We are the ones showing up with the better translations (hell some of it was never translated), the origins and cultural comparisons, the explanations for the terminology and....wait....actual ability to demonstrate unusual power.
And you have come up with no one, no one at all, to counter anything, much less demonstrate unusual power?

For what reason (other than from time to time to write in to correct people) should I care about opinion about this evidence from people who have never even heard of it, don't know where it comes from, what it means and can't demonstrate anything unusual at all?
In law, evidence is argued by bought men more interested in winning, then in truth. If you enter a court room looking for truth, you're a fool. We are talking about Budo, not law and one level of evidence that remains compelling to the experts in Budo that is so far, beyond reproach: I touch hands with them.
Magically, the debate over evidence.....ends, truth arrives, friends are made.

The only place the debate has any life is on the net. Face to face, no one has presented anything that proved successful against what we are presenting. At this point I am fairly convinced that there isn't anyone who is able to demonstrate a counter to what we are discussing, in terminology or skill.
It really makes a clear statement that a 100% conversion rate has had little effect in the argument. I can only imagine what wold happen if 100% of the people who tried Aikido....were converted to doing Aikido. Aikido-ka would be shouting that from the roof tops. That alone makes a statement about bought men looking to win at any cost, and not caring about the truth.

I keep looking toward the future. That future is standing in rooms with Aikido Shihan and other teachers, who are stadning i rooms with teachers from so many other arts I lost count all sharing, laughing and genuinely, and earnestly seeking truth. A truth without attachment, where honesty and sincerity prevail over factions and protecting the status quo.

I have never seen such a diverse range of teachers from so many different arts all standing in the same room learning. I am told by many teachers it does this more than the Aikido Journal demonstrations even did.
We are going to change the face of modern Aikido, one dojo at a time. This is not a fad. It is Ueshiba's vision of aiki, re-emerging and it is as compelling as he was.

Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them

Quote:

Mark Murray wrote:

It sort of is.

Now, compare that with the video of the US football receiver. Where in all of that is there any indication of the receiver being pushed on in any manner? Secret of aiki, remember is used in push tests.

In the same interview the founder says:

Quote:

When an opponent comes to attack you, you just move your body slightly to avoid his attack, and let him go wherever he wants. This is Aiki. In other words, you give him freedom.

I find that this sits well with the football video. Are you cherry picking your quotes Mark? In a research?

Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them

Quote:

David Soroko wrote:

In the same interview the founder says:

I find that this sits well with the football video. Are you cherry picking your quotes Mark? In a research?

Considering that I have correlated hundreds of items from interviews, articles, and books - and posted it here, I think "cherry picking" would certainly be very hard to prove. Now, if someone were to just post one small snippet of one interview to bolster their opinion, why, that might certainly be "cherry picking". Wouldn't you agree?

Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them

Quote:

Mark Murray wrote:

Considering that I have correlated hundreds of items from interviews, articles, and books - and posted it here, I think "cherry picking" would certainly be very hard to prove. Now, if someone were to just post one small snippet of one interview to bolster their opinion, why, that might certainly be "cherry picking". Wouldn't you agree?

Well, in all fairness, I can see where the below statement could be construed to represent an external movement to avoid contact to someone not familiar with the internal concepts and principles of Ueshiba's Aiki. However, if looked at from the internal perspective, the statement also supports the IP/IS concepts - as in, slightly move internally to set up dual opposing spiral in you so on contact the aggressor's attack is sent off in a tangent thus avoiding the attack and the attacker can go his own way, or you can help him along; your choice

Quote:

When an opponent comes to attack you, you just move your body slightly to avoid his attack, and let him go wherever he wants. This is Aiki. In other words, you give him freedom.

I wanted to look more at the source of that statement for proper context, but there was no proper reference provided by the poster other than is was part of an interview you quoted; which were many from what I could see.

Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them

Quote:

Greg Steckel wrote:

Well, in all fairness, I can see where the below statement could be construed to represent an external movement to avoid contact to someone not familiar with the internal concepts and principles of Ueshiba's Aiki. However, if looked at from the internal perspective, the statement also supports the IP/IS concepts - as in, slightly move internally to set up dual opposing spiral in you so on contact the aggressor's attack is sent off in a tangent thus avoiding the attack and the attacker can go his own way, or you can help him along; your choice

I wanted to look more at the source of that statement for proper context, but there was no proper reference provided by the poster other than is was part of an interview you quoted; which were many from what I could see.

Greg

Would it be helpful if people started making a distinction between external and internal aiki? I get the feeling some might say there is no such thing as external aiki, and if that's the case, maybe for the sake of discussion it's time we invented it.
Might we look at David's quote as applying in different ways depending on the individual's ability? Many students will probably reflect a more external expression of move out of the way and let aite go where he wants than someone with a strong internal development (something which has been described as very hard to develop to a significant degree). I don't get the impression O Sensei thought everyone ought learn the internal perspective I assume he had, so, based on that at least, I don't see it as "bad" where people don't.

Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them

Quote:

Matthew Gano wrote:

Would it be helpful if people started making a distinction between external and internal aiki? I get the feeling some might say there is no such thing as external aiki, and if that's the case, maybe for the sake of discussion it's time we invented it.

I hear what you are saying and understand it to a point. Aiki as a simple term can be applied to many different things in an energy blending, harmonious, joining, or avoiding type of context - however, when speaking of Ueshiba's aiki, more and more independent information has been surfacing in the last few years that is painting a different picture of what many in modern Aikido have been told was Ueshiba's aiki. So for any party to state this is the true Ueshiba aiki without providing detailed documentation supporting their view point does not carry much weight - IMO, I think the IP/IS crowd has done a fair job of providing detail to support their position, but the only thing I keep hearing from the other side is that they are all wrong because that is not what their teacher taught them. In addition, the IP/IS crowd is starting to show people developing unusual power in their Aikido as well as other arts the group is involved in; where are the modern Aikido teachers with the same level of unusual power approaching Ueshiba's?

If someone is not interested in the type of stuff we do and wants to keep their Aikido the way it is, that is fine - just don't say we are wrong and you are right without experiencing both approaches - everyone in the IP/IS group has extensive experiences from being on the other side at one time - how many from the non IP/IS group can make the same claim?

Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them

Quote:

Mark Murray wrote:

Considering that I have correlated hundreds of items from interviews, articles, and books - and posted it here, I think "cherry picking" would certainly be very hard to prove. Now, if someone were to just post one small snippet of one interview to bolster their opinion, why, that might certainly be "cherry picking". Wouldn't you agree?

I think that me agreeing or disagreeing is not important. The important thing is that your work has integrity. More to the point, will you revisit your take on what is and isn't aiki in the light the quote?

Here it is again

Quote:

When an opponent comes to attack you, you just move your body slightly to avoid his attack, and let him go wherever he wants. This is Aiki. In other words, you give him freedom.

Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them

Quote:

David Soroko wrote:

I think that me agreeing or disagreeing is not important. The important thing is that your work has integrity. More to the point, will you revisit your take on what is and isn't aiki in the light the quote?

Here it is again

Quote:
When an opponent comes to attack you, you just move your body slightly to avoid his attack, and let him go wherever he wants. This is Aiki. In other words, you give him freedom.

Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them

Quote:

Greg Steckel wrote:

I hear what you are saying and understand it to a point. Aiki as a simple term can be applied to many different things in an energy blending, harmonious, joining, or avoiding type of context - however, when speaking of Ueshiba's aiki, more and more independent information has been surfacing in the last few years that is painting a different picture of what many in modern Aikido have been told was Ueshiba's aiki. So for any party to state this is the true Ueshiba aiki without providing detailed documentation supporting their view point does not carry much weight - IMO, I think the IP/IS crowd has done a fair job of providing detail to support their position, but the only thing I keep hearing from the other side is that they are all wrong because that is not what their teacher taught them. In addition, the IP/IS crowd is starting to show people developing unusual power in their Aikido as well as other arts the group is involved in; where are the modern Aikido teachers with the same level of unusual power approaching Ueshiba's?

If someone is not interested in the type of stuff we do and wants to keep their Aikido the way it is, that is fine - just don't say we are wrong and you are right without experiencing both approaches - everyone in the IP/IS group has extensive experiences from being on the other side at one time - how many from the non IP/IS group can make the same claim?

Greg

I agree talking about "true Ueshiba Aikido" is...problematic. And I think we'd all have an easier time if we avoided that issue more. The OP couched the video in terms of his understanding of aiki, which may or may not be right (in terms of "pure" Ueshiba aiki), but I thought the point was less about what aiki is than what he saw as good movement when being pursued by multiple people; I can see how he might have just been referencing the fact that his idea of aiki is different from what is very often mentioned on AikiWeb these days (a version I personally put a lot of stock in...as far as I can understand it, at any rate). I see that as an honest way of framing the basic premise made here that this video is a good example of aiki (aikido-like behavior).
That all said:
A similarity I see between that idea (exemplified by high level athleticism) and the old Asahi film is that O Sensei never stays in the middle of all those people; at some point he moves away from them, finding a safer space to reorganize. If aikido (not necessarily aiki itself) was "always" about engagement I would think he would stay in the thick of it rather than moving away from it. As I currently interpret things, aiki is about how one engages themselves (i.e. a meta-operating system) which then affects how interactions will manifest. Using the intent of the attacker against him is good aikido, even if perhaps it's not sufficient to be called pure internal aiki. So rather than getting caught up in the language, which I would agree is an important topic on its own, I'd just rather see more engaging of the valid points being made that are salient to the common training experience.

Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them

Quote:

Mary Eastland wrote:

Thank Chris...I especially loved when he pulled up and they ran into each other.

Yeah, I was pretty impressed by that myself!! What a great idea, using their force against them, all the ball carrier had to do was to understand what the attackers wanted to do, and he used their minds against them, effortlessly! This is the kind of thing that makes Aiki, and Aikido so interesting to me!!

Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them

Quote:

David Soroko wrote:

In the same interview the founder says:

Quote:

Quote:
When an opponent comes to attack you, you just move your body ***slightly*** to avoid his attack, and let him go wherever he wants. This is Aiki. In other words, you give him freedom.

I find that this sits well with the football video. Are you cherry picking your quotes Mark? In a research?

No...there is no comparison.
Are you cherry picking sentences? Do you know why what he said is relevant to this:"Not a feather can be added, nor can a fly alight that doesn't induce rotation."
Do you know how it fits perfectly with his other comments in many other areas. They all fit together once you understand how to move the body. If you don't you...well...you end up moving like the average guy.
Obviously you don't understand how it fits together, hence the confusion you have about Ueshiba's statements, training exercises, power and aiki, but your confusion...is not my confusion.

I lay it all out for people, start to finish, complete with his exercises, and why they worked and how to do them and what they were for, and then tie it back to his sayings and how they, tie into other work. Then...I actually demonstrate unusual power created from them...and...teach.
Oh well.
Dan

Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them

Quote:

Dan Harden wrote:

"Not a feather can be added, nor can a fly alight that doesn't induce rotation."

Thank you, Dan! I hadn't read this with the last 4 words included yet. I had wondered about the partial quote I read before...still wondering, but in a differet way. Thanks again!
p.s Happy Holidays and New Year to everyone. Off to dinner...

Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them

Quote:

Gary Welborn wrote:

David
Are you saying that aiki is only getting out of the way? Or is only blending and timing? Does IP/IS play no part in all of this in your world?

Gary

For whatever its worth, I think that throughout his life, the founder used aiki to describe different aspects of his practice. Given the quote in this thread that included "move your body slightly to avoid his attack, and let him go wherever he wants"

Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them

Quote:

Christopher Li wrote:

What I'm asking for is that if someone says "this is what I'm calling Aiki" then they at least show some evidence of a link to what Ueshiba stated as Aiki.

I'm out of town, and I only have Budo Renshu with me, but here are a few quick quotes I found from Ueshiba, describing his art.

"Thinking I am in front of him, the enemy raises his sword to attack, but lo I am already standing behind him"

"Drawing out the attack of the perverse enemy, my body stands behind him and cuts."

I also have "Aikido" by Kisshomaru Ueshiba with me. In that there is a story-

" A young naval officer and kendo teacher came to his [Ueshiba's] Dojo. The jujutsu man [Ueshiba] tried to explain the theory of his "Aiki" to the Kendo man but it seems that the visitor had come for a fight. In the end, Ueshiba consented to having a match. The officer dashed forward to attack with his wooden training sword but each time Ueshiba was able to dodge the weapon with ease. Finally the challenger sat down without once touching him."

So here we have two poems where Ueshiba himself describes his art, and how using it means convincing your attacker you are in one place, when in fact you are behind him.

Then we also have a story, recounted by the founders son, where he describes Ueshiba, when pressed to show "Aiki" simply dodges all of the swords mans attacks until the swordman is to tired to continue.