Our dojo is pretty relaxed. No real formalities. Punishment, if thats what you want to call it is usually given out after you've been warned about something several times. Too much contact when sparring, talking while a Sensei is explaining something to the class. Things like that and then it's based on the individual. I'm not going to tell someone to do 100 pushups when I know they can only do 25.

Grading is more formal and you may do pushups or situps for leaning on the wall or resting on the floor on one elbow. Things like that.

First of all, let me apologize for being so "late" in replying to your post... I'll do my pushups at a later time...

Seriously...I issue all my students a handbook with all the rules and what's expected of them. In that set of instructions, I tell them that they are not to slide in "under the wire" to class, but be there early so that they can start and end on time. If I have a 6:30 class, I expect them there by 6:15... and they know it... so if they show up at 6:35... I reinforce my time instruction with a few pushups...

People who have to work, or are late because of someone else's tardiness don't get punished, but they are held off the mats until they receive an acknowledgement to be allowed to practice.

I did thousands of pushups when I was learning martial arts and it hasn't killed me yet... it did teach me to be there on time, and to follow the rules that the sensei set forth for me. Being ADD probably didn't help any, but it did create a learning tool that taught me to pay attention to the clock and to details of the instruction.

We consider our dojo a "benovelent dictatorship", where the rules are made and told to everyone, and then they are expected to follow them. I don't allow students to run in the door and "bob their head as they enter the school, regardless of how late they are... they're expected to enter, and take the time to do a proper bow, and then continue whatever they're doing... it's part of the discipline of training. If it isn't enforced, it will never ingrain itself into them.

The proof of that is found in people who hang around garages... if they never work on the cars, they talk a good game, but you can't have them fix your car because they don't know how... they've seen it... and watched it... but they've never done it... so it isn't one of their skills. Discipline is the same way...

It isn't done as punishment, but reinforcement of the rule... and if you have a problem with that, train somewhere else. There are lots of dojos out there that will take your money and you'll walk out the back door of the place just as undisciplined and untrained as the garage-watchers.

Part of the difference in "my training" and what we're discussing here, is that I understood that I was learning deadly skills... not just exercises and sport boxing skills. The discipline is necessary so that you don't turn around an slam someone's ST-9 because they surprise you or cause you pain... discipline is all about restraint and order... and this is a pretty painless way to teach it.

(I'm off to do my pushups for not reading this thread for many, many days and failing to reply in a timely manner...

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What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

I agree with wristtwister that is the way it should be and that is, after all, what many of the parents actually want when they sign their kids up for karate. They want the discipline. They want the difference because of some issue with their kid. This is one possible reason for choosing karate.

We have a set of rules and discipline issued to us. I try to stick to it for the most part. It is more layed back. Oddly enough, parents have complained when an instructor issues discipline. I am not the school owner. If I am working with one of the owners or any dan higher than me, I let them call the shots on discipline. If I am the highest dan, I try to find the middle muddle.

One practical observation of one of our owners that is wise for the middle muddle, is that it makes no difference whether you give a kid 100 push ups or 10. It is all the same to them. There is still the embarrassment of getting busted and singled out. 10 gets them back in class sooner and reduces the attention it attracts.

What are your feelings regarding the practice of a Sensei who deals out punishments to adult and child students? At what point do you protest or take leave of the dojo?

As long as its fair, I see no problem with discipline inside the dojo. Personally I don't discipline so sever that the whole class suffers unless thats my intent nor so that the persons whole class is consumed by the action. If its that server I just will suspend them from class for some time. Most of my discipline strategy are mind building or body building either push ups or six inches, pending their level sometimes it isometric kick holds with or /wo ankle straps. Or 100 punches on the makiwaria. Or Sanchin with body tempering.

Once a single Mom reported that her 5th kyu son had problems talking back to the teacher. She wanted me to handle it. I decided that at the end of class the Sanchin body tempering from his upper classmen was in order. I could check both their techniques.

The Child didn't mind it so much but the Mother freaked, even after the kid told her he was Ok. I just explained its what we do, its like letting a duckling swim in the lake by himself the 1st time.

As long as it fair, the class must have structure. Some of the parents use my method of discipline at home.

<<What are your feelings regarding the practice of a Sensei who deals out punishments

See my 02/25/06 12:23am comment, (finally said it well).

<<She wanted me to handle it.

Ok, I too hope we effect students elsewhere (because of what we offer/share with the children). But how does a child's impoliteness/insolence/impudence (whatever you prefer to label it) have to do with you??? Specifically when it is done elsewhere in a situation we did not observe...? How did that fall into "our" laps???

<<Sanchin body tempering from his upper classmen was in order.

How does this work???????? ("Tempering" done presumedly by other children forgive me that sounds hazardous to be polite...) Am I missing something (hopefully)???

<<its like letting a duckling swim in the lake by himself the 1st time.

<<First of all, let me apologize for being so "late" in replying to your post...

You have had other matters of importance to deal with... there is no harm.

<<I tell them that they are not to slide in "under the wire" to class, but be there early.

Despite the fact those children have no ability to alter their "fate"? They can whine, complain, have a massive hissy fit, or be ready in the car....regardless if I am on the phone with a client they have no say.

Rhetorically, is "late" or not training at all the ~higher path~ to your perspective?

<<they are held off the mats until they receive an acknowledgement, to be allowed to practice.

Makes perfect sense and IS the way ours is written too btw. I am not contending that it will kill anybody. I simply believe that punitive measures, even benign/healthy ones run the risk potentially of detracting from the end goal; studying, learning meaningful arts & practices. Class is not long enough to spend doing "PE class". A byproduct of study/practice certainly but not "the" goal...

Sigh, I am not framing this well...

<<Being ADD probably didn't help

As I think we have spoken before (???) some teachers (not implying you) hide behind the "discipline" issue as well. Confuse the forced group behavior with bone-fide self-discipline.

<<I don't allow students to run in the door and "bob their head as they enter the school, regardless of how late

You articulate this very well, and I appreciate-admire (sic. and we use) this approach. Your description in a strange way reminds me of T. Nakamura's book "the Human Face of Karate" where he spoke quite elliquently to the heart of the problem I see with a stiffer version (if you will) but that I cannot seem to explain sufficently well...

<<If it isn't enforced, it will never ingrain itself

What of the ~empty ritual~ issue? Compelled, forced it has the potential to be meaningless and insincere?

I too appreciate & acknowledge wristtwisters approach. I guess I have concerns for the "excess" or the shield if you will that some contend as discipline, the forced-compelled insincere actions solely by rote passing/pretending to be "discipline"?

<<after all, what many of the parents actually want when they sign their kids up for karate.

Absolutely... Yet when asked, ok... what exactly do you wish us to teach your child (eg "discipline"), you get some awfully weird/outright insane answers....

<<parents have complained when an instructor issues discipline.

Tell us more PLEASE ????????!!!!!!!![As for 10 rather than 100 pushups, with most normal children I agree.]

I noticed fairly recently (over the past few years) several children WANTING to do them. "...Johnny we asked you twice, and you are deliberately keep doing "X"... SIT OUT until we ask you to return... what, WHAT Sam, we'll get to you in a minute... what's that... you'd, you'd LIKE to do some push-ups (followed by the raising of hands/spontainously calling out by different younger kids "...can we do some too...")

It is a damned strange phenomina when it happens.... I suppose at the core I hold the belief (rightly/wrongly) that children learn the BEST when they are enjoying the learning....(sic. vs. a fear based approach).

I don't assign push ups to the kids I warn them first that they need to settle down or they can hold my hand. I have yet to have a boy willingly hold my hand! LOL the girls on the other hand have no problem with this so you have to think of something else for them.

Casey

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Ronin, let me make this simple...I don't look at most discipline as anything other than someone learning to "do as you're told" by someone who outranks them and as such has more knowledge of their art. It's an effort to teach someone that not everything is negotiable, which most people seem to think today. MA courtesy and discipline is military courtesy, i.e. following directions because your superior gives you an order.

Discipline has no measure of time... the idea of "bobbing your head" as you walk in the dojo is both discourteous and defeats the purpose of bowing as you enter the dojo in the first place. The dojo is "the place for learning the way", and regardless of your schedule, you're to acknowledge both those that have gone before you in training, and those that you train with now. I would suppose that it might take 5 to 10 seconds more to stop, do a proper bow, and then continue on your way... as opposed to running in the door, bobbing your head, and never even slowing down to get to the class (which you're probably already late for).

I went back to the dojo tonight, and it was like a madhouse... another 100 to 150 people have started taking MA there, (we had 650 before) and it was like a zoo. Our students were the standouts... they moved quietly and deliberately through the crowd, waiting to get onto the mats for class, and what was clearly visible was the difference in their demeanor.

Everybody else was in a hurry... either to come in or leave... and the parents of the kids were even worse than the kids. It was clearly something they were "trying to fit into their schedule" rather than a sincere desire to do anything positive, like reinforce the character of their children through MA practice.

We live in a world of "mealy-mouths" that say whatever they think is necessary to make them look good, and the "trendy" parents all want their kids "taking martial arts for discipline", when they have no discipline themselves and act worse than their kids in most cases. I don't usually teach children in my classes (except Judo) so hopefully any of them wanting to study jujutsu or aikido are old enough and smart enough to understand the inherit danger of the techniques.

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What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"