Here is a good precept study on CHANGING GODS LAWS:Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, Daniel7:25 And he shall.. think to change times and laws:

COMPARE THIS WITH:

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

You are not understanding Scriptures. The Holy Apostles never mandated the observance of ANY day, including the Jewish Sabbath. Gentile Christians did not have to observe the Jewish Sabbath. However, we DO have evidence in Scriptures and Church History that Christians have always celebrated the Divine Liturgy on the first day of the week (Sunday).

You simply can not provide any Scripture that support the erroneous belief that observance of the Jewish Sabbath (or even Old Jewish laws concerning diet, such as not eating Pork) is required for those entering into the New Covenant.

No man changed the laws of God, however, the Cross ushered in the New Covenant and with the New covenant the Old Covenant became obsolete. Hebrews 8:13 is very clear on that issue and also clear that with a change in the priesthood there was a change in the Law. 7:12

Francis - When will you have eyes that see the truth? You really do not understand what constitutes a covenant do you?

You are right. The Holy Apostles didn't sanctified any specific day per se. ---Ignatius on 12/1/10 Thank you.Do you realise that you are saying that MAN ( the apostles) changed the LAW OF GOD? So whcih apostle do you think changed Gods Laws?

//I DARE YOU GIVE ME ONE VERSE where God, Paul, peter, jesus, james, john, matthew, or any apostle blessed the first day and sanctified it.

I dare you to tell us where either of these people mandated that Christians are to observe the Old Jewish Sabbath.

Francis, if you are to obey the Jewish Sabbath, THEN you need to obey ALL OT laws. Today is the start of Hanukuk. Will you be obedience to the law and observe it? - after it is as Jewish as is the weekly Sabbath.

Forget not not that sin is a violiaton of the law. However not all OT laws are appicable to the church.

"I DARE YOU GIVE ME ONE VERSE where God, Paul, peter, jesus, james, john, matthew, or any apostle blessed the first day and sanctified it." (franics)

You are right. The Holy Apostles didn't sanctified any specific day per se. However, it is clear from their own writings and those who succeeded them that Sunday was norm for the celebration of the Divine Liturgy in the Ancient Apostolic Church.

According to Saint Paul, one is not obligated to observe any day or any feast (Romans 14), and each should be persuaded in his own mind.

We simply are not given any commandment to observe the Jewish Sabbath in the New Testament Francis.

francis will not see the light without the Lord's help.Prayer should be first and foremost on our hearts.Some more issues with believers meeting in the synagogues especially on the sabbath:The unbelieving Jews chase Paul from their midst regularly, not to mention persecuting believers.The only time Paul goes to the synagogues is when first arriving to a town."and lo we turn to the Gentiles", "to the Jew first"This is also confirmed by the first fathers but francis will have none of these truths.

-IGnatius on 12/1/10 What you have failed to realize is this:1: Gentile cnverts to christianity ( from judism)called religious proselytes were already keeping the sabbath2: Isaiah 56 says everyone jew and stranger must keep the sabbath so not jews were already keeping sabbath3: Most important in this context> there is not one scripture that says sunday was sabbath, and that meeting was a saturday evening meeting.

Acts 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to houseThis text makes your arguement seem childish. If ONE sunday makes every sunday a sabbath, why does not daily meeting make every day sabbathTEXT PLEASE

"So when the God fearing gentiles wanted to hear the gospel, it HAD to be NEXT SABBATH DAY" (Francis)

And it is not the reason so obvious? The Holy Apostles spread the Gospel to the Jews first (for did not Christ said the Salvation is of the Jews?). And where else could the Jews hear the Gospel but on the Jewish Sabbath, in the Temple?

However, Gentile Christians would meet on the first day of the week (Sunday) to celebrate the Divine Liturgy (Acts 20:7, Co 16:2).

Sorry francs, but we Christians do not have follow in your Jewish footsteps, obeying old Jewish customs.

I have given Scriptures outlining the difference the percepts of the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. Why do you still wish to live under the Old? Is the Old better than the New? Why do you wish to enslaved us Christians under percepts of the Old Covenabnt, such as the observance of the Jewish Sabbath?

You would do well to read Hebrews (especially chapter 4 and 8) and Galatians. You should read Acts 15, Romans 14, and Colossians 2:16-17.

The New Testament is clear: Christians do not have to observe any Jewish Holy Days, such as the Jewish Sabbath. Why say you different? Are thou a Messianic Jew Francis?

Francis, you just don't get it, the Christian Sabbath is on Sunday's. ---Mark_V. on 12/1/10 pure foolishness1: No text in the bible ever says jewish or christian sabbath is it always THE SABBATH OF THE LORD2: I did NOT make the 7trh day a law GOD DID

The rest of your post is just plain nonesense, no biblical bases whatsoeverI DARE YOU GIVE ME ONE VERSE where God, Paul, peter, jesus, james, john, matthew, or any apostle blessed the first day and sanctified it.

While Jewish believers continued in the Mosaic tradition of the Sabbath, Gentile churches did NOT.

Francis - here is your proof.

Ac 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow, and continued his speech until midnight.

Co 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

And then church history clearly verifies that the Gentiles observed the Christian Sabbath, NOT the Jewish Sabbath. Of course, you and most SDA refuse to study church history as it does NOT support your errant beliefs.

The council acknowledged:Acts 15:9 GOD put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.and thus:Isaiah 56:7 mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

And all belivers in Jesus ( Hebrew and none hebrew) met every sabbath dayActs 13:43 many of the Jews and proselytes...continue in the grace of God.

According to ACTS 13:43 none hebrew who had accepted Jesus and the hebrews who had accepted jewus, worshiped every sabath day along with unbelieving Jews.God fearing gentiles were also in the area.So when the God fearing gentiles wanted to hear the gospel, it HAD to be NEXT SABBATH DAY not next day

Francis, you just don't get it, the Christian Sabbath is on Sunday's. It is not a law. Many churches have it on other days. What you want is Saturday. No matter what. You make it a law, and if someone does not do it, they are breaking the Ten Commandments, but you are wrong. You have not moved from the law to Grace. And insist for everyone to do what you do. Sorry, but no Saturday was mentioned by God Himself. That was man's tradition to use Saturday. You are welcome to use Saturday if you want. Jesus Himself worked on Saturday. He didn't see anything wrong.

Do you follow all the laws as outline in the written and oral Torah or just some? Are you a Messianic Jew or a Neo-Judaizer? Are you going to answer these two question or simply ignore them once again?

"are you saying that to be a TRUE christian in the new covenant, i must reject these laws" (Francis)

What say Christ? Did He not say "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."? (Matthew 22:36-40)

Since Christians live under the New Covenenat, the Jewish Sabbath, the Levitical Dietary Laws (such as not eating Pork), and other ceremonial laws, are made void. Please read Saint Paul's Epistle to the Hebrews to see how the New Covenant supersede the Old.

"OK be honest, are you saying that to be a TRUE christian in the new covenant," (franics)

A careful studying of the New Testament will show that those who enter into the New Covenant because of the "precious Blood and Death of Christ Who died for all, and [who] saved us from all evil, and was the giver of the spiritual circumcision, whereby we gain that we are joined to God Who is over all" (Saint Cyril of Alexandria) are no longer require to follow the Jewish Sabbath.

Why then do you wish to enslaved us once again in the Jewish religion? Who have bewitched you (Galatians 3:1)?

-Ignatius here we go AGAIN. OK be honest, are you saying that to be a TRUE christian in the new covenant, i must reject these laws:

1: Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. (Matt 4:10) 2: Neither be ye idolaters. (1Cor 10:7)) 3: The name of God not blasphemed.(1Tim 6:1)4: For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day. Acts 15:21 5: Honour thy father and mother (Eph 6:1-3) 6: Do not kill (James 2:11) 7: Adulterers God will judge.(Heb 13:4) 8: Let him that stole steal no more(Eph 4:28) 9: Lie not one to another (Col 3:9) 10: Be without covetousness, (Heb 13:5)

Christians are not under the Old Testament Covenant, but a New Covenant, much better than the former (Hebrews 8). The former has been made void (Hebrews 8:14), and a change of law occurred (Hebrews 12). The former could not saved, but only made us aware of our need for a Redeemer (Romans 7:7-22 & Galatians 3:24).

Why do you not wish to live under the New Covenant, whom those who are in have "liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free...." (Galatians 5:1) but instead wish to entangled those who have been redeemed with percepts of the Old Testament?

Are you a Messanic Jew or a Neo-Judaizer that wish to live in both worlds? Why do you live in the shadows of the Old Covenant?

What you and LEEJ have failed to see is that the law which you claimed to have changed was a TEACHING TOOL/ SCHOOLMASTER until christ came. The blood of goats and bulls did not take away any sin did they? All they did was TEACH the plan of redeemption. That for the remission of SIN death/ blood was required. Has that truely changed? When did anyone get saved by the blood of any animal?

// While you attack the Roman Church because of the Papacy (and rightly so), you are ignorant of the fact that SDA follow a false goddess.

What I have found within Adventist churches is that they spend all their time damning those that are Roman Catholic and declare those who do not belong to them as being step sisters of Roman Catholicism.

It all goes by to the deceptive and specious reasoning that if everyone else is wrong in their doctrine, that leave them with correct doctrines.

It is both sad but shameful for them as they really cannot see what they are doing in labeling and cursing other who have different & defensible viewpoints.

What we can truly expect from both Jerry & Francis to attempt to diverse the subject matter to some other topic that they feel they can defend. And this is usually what happens when a person lacks both knowledge of the Bible and church history.They will never comment on the existence of the Eastern churches, preferring to blame the church of Rome for all the bad doctrines.

It is no wonder that millions have left the SDA during the past few decades and we can expect to see more testimonies from those who have found the truth.

Theirs is a different gospel than what is found within the Bible and simply not defensible.

And what was Ellen G. White but a false goddess? While you attack the Roman Church because of the Papacy (and rightly so), you are ignorant of the fact that SDA follow a false goddess. However you want to slice it, Ellen G White was a poor, spiritual delusional, false self proclaimed prophetess that preyed on the innocent. But then again, it is not her fault that she experienced a serious head injury in her childhood leaving her delusional.

Anyone who studied Scriptures will see that the Jewish Sabbath and Old Testament Dietary Laws (such as not eating Pork) are not longer applicable to Baptized/Christmated Christians.

Neither did the east and west, nor distance of place deuide the church, but both the eastchurch and westchurch, the Grekes and Latynes made all one church. And albeit there were then 5. Patriarchall Seas appoynted for order sake, differing, in regions, & peraduenture also in some rites one from another, yet all these consenting together in one vnity of catholicke doctrine, hauing one God, one Christ, one fayth, one baptisme, one spirit, one head, and lincked together in one bond of charity, and in one equality of honor, they made altogether, one body, one church, one communion, called one catholicke, vniuersall, and Apostolicall church.

////As a matter of fact, there is not ONE reference to any of these churches in the index of her writings.

Yes it is easy to see that neither Jerry nor Francis knows enough about church history to really comment on this. White simply was almost totally ignorant of other Christian denominations and took advantage of religious prejudice against Catholics to benefit from her own errant beliefs.

She was deceited as are her followers who are dedicated to stay ignorant and in the dark as far as the truth is concerned.

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Hebrews 13:9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines

The doctrines and precepts of God never changes, so that those who have a sincere desire to learn of God will pause whenever anyone teaches them any precept that seems different from OT to NT ( yesterday today and forever)

Here we have a church in the NT search the OT to see if these thngs were so. That could never be possible if God changed his precepts. doctrine Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

"White took full advantage of religious prejudice among the ignorant who believed the early church was totally Roman Catholic. She apparently never heard of the Eastern Orthodox churches, the Nestorian church or the Coptic churches...." (leej)

Her ignorance of Church History was typical, even among the Reformers, who didn't had a complete knowledge of Eastern Christianity. White preyed on the naive. Very True.

"Sorry Jerry but Christ ushered in the New Covenant that did not mandate physical circumcision or observance of the Jewish Sabbath."

Very true. But you must understand that Francis and Jerry are both either Jews or Neo-Judaizers. What the New Covenant teach is irrelevant to them.

francis //.. jesus said any different from this, then he would HAVE BEEN a false teacher.SO it is your missunderstanding that is flawed.

The major flaw in your belief system is your stand that the New Covenant is merely a rehash of the Old and that the Jewish system of belief such as the Sabbath & dietary laws pertained also to Gentile converts. If you knew what the decree of the Jerusalem council in Acts 15 was, you would know that Gentiles were not obligated to observe the laws of the Mosaic system.

Until you can get that correct, your exegetics of Scripture will never be correct. 2 tim. 2:15

Your beliefs are an minority opinion since they have the least of all support.

Jesus made it very plain that it is not what goes into the stomach that defiles one but what come out of the heart. Mk. 7:18f.---leej on 11/28/10

Now this is what I am talking about.

This is the worLeviticus 11:42 .. all creeping things that creep upon the earth, them ye shall not eat, Leviticus 11:43 Ye shall not make yourselves abominable with any creeping thing that creepeth, neither shall ye make yourselves unclean with them, that ye should be defiled thereby. Isaiah 66:17 .. eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.

If jesus said any different from this, then he would HAVE BEEN a false teacher.SO it is your missunderstanding that is flawed.

Jerry //The RC Church claims to have transferred solemnity from the Sabbath to Sunday, but they are not God. Are you a Catholic?

White took full advantage of religious prejudice among the ignorant who believed the early church was totally Roman Catholic. She apparently never heard of the Eastern Orthodox churches, the Nestorian church or the Coptic churches who never were under the jurisdiction of Rome and who never observed the Jewish Sabbath.

Sorry Jerry but Christ ushered in the New Covenant that did not mandate physical circumcision or observance of the Jewish Sabbath. Acts 15

Are all non-Adventists Roman Catholics?

Sorry Jerry but your dedicated ignorance of both the Bible and church history is very evident.

//---leej on 11/26/10If you believe God who never changes in His nature (attributes) but deals with man in accordance to covenants then it is clear that there are changes.// Amen, Anianas and Sapphira in Acts 5 probably wished he had changed His dealing earlier

God does not change, but His commands do.Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. ---micha9344 on 11/26/10 I like you take on the diet thing. But Gods command on diet never changed. Man was to continue to eat plants, God ADDED flesh. Not changed, but ADDED

You priesthood having changed is good, but what did it change from, and what did it change to? Who lamb slain from the foundation of the earth, which priest killed it and why?

Lee: "from the resurrection of Christ, was changed into the 1st day of the week, which, in Scripture, is called the Lord's Day, ...the Christian Sabbath."

What a crock! Show the scripture which commands the change of the Lord's Day - Saturday, the seventh day Sabbath - into the "Venerable Day of the Sun." The Bible only calls one day holy, and that day is the Sabbath. It was made holy by God. The RC Church claims to have transferred solemnity from the Sabbath to Sunday, but they are not God. Are you a Catholic?

Kay Arthur's Bible study is based on inductive logic. Really most bible stuidy involves inductive logic. It is the kind of logic that you have to "fill in the blanks." This makes the Bible the winnowing fork.

The most effective way to correctly interpret the Bible is context. however, this logic always leaves the back door open.

Kay Arthur did "Christian" conferences with Tony Campolo and Josh McDowell. Tony Campolo is into mysticism that is not of Jesus Christ. By way of induction, you decide.

Genesis 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which [is] upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which [is] the fruit of a tree yielding seed, to you it shall be for meat. Genesis 9:3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you, even as the green herb have I given you all things.Genesis 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only [son] Isaac,...offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of. Genesis 22:12a he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him...God does not change, but His commands do.Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

A precept is a principle: a rule, instruction, or principle that guides somebody's actions, especially one that guides moral behavior.

one principle is depicted in the Westminister Confessions.

XXI:VII. As it is the law of nature, in general, a due proportion of time be set apart for the worship of God, so, in His Word, by a positive, moral, and perpetual commandment binding all men in all ages, He has particularly appointed 1 day in 7, for a Sabbath, to be kept holy unto him: which, from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, was the last day of the week: and, from the resurrection of Christ, was changed into the 1st day of the week, which, in Scripture, is called the Lord's Day, ...the Christian Sabbath.

For God changed His actions towards man through time. ---Mark_V. on 11/22/10

Psalms 100:5 his MERCY is everlasting, and his TRUTHendureth to all generations.Psalms 102:27 But thou art the same, and thy YEARS shall have no end. Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Be not carried about with divers and strange DOCTRINES. Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not, therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. Psalms 18:30 [As for God, his way [is] perfect:Psalms 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul:

Numbers 23:19 God [is] not a man, that he should lie, neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do [it]? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar,

MARKV PROOVE TO US THAT For God changed His actions towards man through time USE SCRIPTURES

Francis, without readying your book, I already know it is wrong. For God changed His actions towards man through time. He Himself does not change for He is the same yesterday, today and forever, but His works change as Scripture unfolds to all of us. The commands on one covenant change with a better covenant. That was His plan. I think you should rewrite your book and put down that His nature, character and attributes do not change, but His actions towards sinners did change.

trying to go back over the study for colossians that i have from the class but hard for me to interpret what is said in the chapters - i typed it up and then i go back in chapter on computer to fill it it - easier that way - worksheets dont have lines to write on - trying to fill in charts is hard - not enough room to write in narrow columns - wish i could find one filled out on the precept website - maybe i am not just understanding what i am reading - not young anymore

i took precept class 2 years ago on colossians and really liked it but i hesitated in marking up bible - my daughter had gotten me a inductive study bible - now i have bought one of my own and would like to put the notes from colossians in it just dont feel like marking bible all up

I did my first Precept study in 1987 and began leading them in 1994. It is the only method I use to teach and to study. I have taught Old and New Testament using Precept materials and am just finishing Colossians this spring. As PMI says, "Learn truth for yourself".

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine?

them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, and there a little: Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh, 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith:

On the one hand, it's been providing a very rich look into the scriptures, something I haven't had for a very long time. I've benefitted from the word studies and the usually inductive approach.

Usually. I can't tell yet. I hope I am wrong. It seems like a lot of the study is set up to perpetuate the pre-mil, pre-dis position, "using" the scripture as a launching pad to present and promulgate this position.

It's sad to see the instructor participating in blatant proof-texting to present this position . . . when that's not even anywhere near the emphasis of the text under study.

I have not done a study on Biblical precepts, but would be interested in hearing of studies that others have done and feel they have learned from. Which study did you do, and what is the training you are doing to prepare to lead?

Yes, I have. When I was a young believer. Precepts are hard without Bible tools. In class people did better than I did. And that's when God said you need some Bible tools. And believe it or not, that's all I remember about the experience.

Done many Bible studies and Precepts is one of them. The discussion groups can go "all over the place" with a topic and the Scriptures seem to get lost. I think the leader could set bounderies and direct the discussion to be more focused, keeping out opinons that have no Bible bases. Have an outline where you want the discussion to go and have informed information. Add some applications. Any study is great with Scriptures. I pray you become a great leader! The main word is "focus".

Hi, I've done the Precepts Course covering Creation. Found it very good, but VERY hard going. Somedays you can feel very demoralised because you can't get to grips with the topic. But having said that I'd love to do another course sometime.

Personally, I prefer the Biblical form of precept study found in Isa 28:10 "For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:" Check out Amazing Facts. They offer free precept studies on line.

Precepts or Mores were given to address the many civil issues in society, but they are not considered more adhering then God's primary directives or commands. For example, the Ministers asked if divorce was lawful because Moses affirmed it. But Jesus said, "For the hardness of your heart Moses wrote this precept, but from the beginning it was not so...for the two have become one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate." Mark 10:2-12.

Beth Moore wrote a book on the precepts and it had many good harhitting ideas that apply to our daily lives. You can find her on Amazon. I know you will learn and enjoy this study as it ties in so many ideas in an easy to follow sequence.