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Friday, June 10, 2011

In love with a sociopath (part 3)

The reader replies:

I do understand that I should never expect anything of him, and if he is being nurturing and sympathetic sometimes it's only because he enjoys the feelings which his rare sweetness awakens. I'm willing to go forward with this weird friendship. I'm not going to give up on him just because he is somehow different, after all he is a human being as well. Plus it gives some kind of drive.

I was thinking about sociopathy a lot lately and i came to a conclusion that such people are like tigers, wild animals, and trying to tame one takes skill. And the best part is that you will never fully tame one, today he loves you, and tomorrow he will bite your throat out. Being in this arena gives me a sense of life. I came up with a theory that people can be placed under 2 categories; the pets, and the wild animals. Sociopaths are more likely to survive -- I do believe they make good business people, because in situations where others would think twice before either breaking the law, or defying some other social norms (dont steal, dont cheat, bla bla) a sociopath wouldn't blink an eye. And they project a sense of power -- women are drawn to that. So maybe that's why I like the guy. For me its an honor to be within his close circle, and hopefully I can keep this place without being replaced. And I'm willing to become his perfect victim, and put him on a pedestal. Yes, this takes balls and courage, but I dont want to be replaced. He is free like the wind, and untamable, but he is my wild tiger, and I want to stay in the arena.

105 comments:

I would deem myself a sociopath, and honestly, even when my own mother was dying, i didn't pay her a visit in hospital. I've never bought gifts for my family members, never apologised, abused, beaten and stole from every woman i have ever dated, and i don't feel bad about it. This guy doesn't sound sociopathic or even narcissistic in the least, he may just have issues.

There's so much focus on the label and concept of the sociopath that people fail to see the unbelievable cruelty and horrors committed at the hands of people capable of empathy.

Plenty of killers, even serial killers, are not sociopaths and while diagnosed sociopaths indeed make up a much larger percentage of the prison population than the general one, the vast majority of prisoners are not sociopaths.

A close look at how racism and religious violence have manifested widely in populations have shown this countless times throughout history and is but one example. Anyone who has experience public high school should know of what I write about.

Too often people read of horrific crimes and automatically think "they must be a 'sociopath'. This is merely a way of trying to separate themselves from people who commit such crimes, to comfort themselves and try to make sense of something they are unwilling to face in themselves and those around them with delusions of "us" and "them".

It does not take a sociopath to murder or be a sadist. The capacity for guilt does not inoculate a person from the ability to do great harm and commit horrors. In fact, the facility for shutting of empathy is remarkably common. A doctor who creates a distance with his patient pain in order to treat them, a soldier or cop who learns to kill in order to survive are some examples.

While this is usually temporary, such a capacity means that while a sociopath may cause harm through out their lives, the people that are most likely to cause you harm are those capable of empathy and often choose not to feel it. The sociopath has no such choice and I ask you this, what is worse? The person who is incapable of empathy or the person who is and chooses not to feel it.

Most gangbangers and racists have antisocial personality disorder, they comform to a code and forget all other morality. Psychopaths appear completely normal, self assured and might even be charming, they do not care for anyone, can't connect.

A sociopath would not feel the need to rationalize a murder nor would they need anything to "forget all other morality".

Being capable of intense cruelty towards another, or premeditated murder does not require ASPD. Anyone who thinks it does is fooling themselves and has not looked at the actual clinical and statistical data.

So a convicted murderer who is told about the immense impact the murder he has commited attributed to the victims family, he smiles and says "so what?" then you wouldn't think he is a sociopath? That is a clear callous lack of remorse for a persons physical well being, which would indicate psychopathy. Your argument is flawed.

This guy knows what he's talking about. Every human being has the same psychological faculties as violent criminals; dehumanization, compartmentalization, rationalization, but not everyone develops them to the same degree. Environment can definitely play a big role. I wish I could remember the name of the guy, but some guy who has done a lot of research on the mind of killers came to the conclusion that they aren't so different from 'normal' people after all. In the military, they used to have a hard time getting soldiers to override their natural inhibition towards killing a member of their own species, but with training that develops their ability to dehumanize "fuck those (insert degrading label here)" and to compartmentalize "they're not like us, they're monsters from another country!" and to rationalize "they was gonna take our freedom!" and through this, along with conditioning, they have been able to get more soldiers to kill. I have a feeling that sociopaths have a permanent lock on these faculties, to an extreme degree. No matter what, its always them against the world (compartmentalization), no one else is as important as them, everyone is weak (dehumanization). They don't need to justify or rationalize because it is locked so intensely, if they hurt someone else, it doesn't matter, its not them, they don't understand why they should care about someone who isn't them, in the same way a 'normal' person doesn't think they should care about a murderer, the difference being the sociopath doesn't need to rationalize it in anyway. Its not the behavior that makes a sociopath, its the way they think.

"The person who is incapable of empathy or the person who is and chooses not to feel it."

People who possess true empathy can't just turn it off, lack of empathy from a 'normal' person is usually just self-rationalization of any act that society would deem heinous. This 'normal' person will almost certaintly feel some sense of guilt for their actions in the future. But then again there is the state of being in "bad faith," in which the 'normal' person will never feel guilty about some wrong action.

You recognize a sociopath by the diagnostic criteria distinguished by a lack of empathy, etc.

Actions and behaviors vary per person. While they can be a very good indicator, they are not the only way to determine sociopathy. As previously mentioned. NTs are just as capable of doing twisted shit.

In defense of self-diagnosis, if you actually have a PD you probably know something is up. I knew what my deal was almost a decade before I was diagnosed. However, yeah, generally children here are just playing dress up because the clothes seem cooler.

you know what it sounds like, reader? In trying to figure this out myself, having had the same relationship, it sounds like maybe you love to be motherly. He is a giant spoiled baby going around and coming home to Mommy. Think back for a moment all the times you lied to your Mom but realized she is your rock, and will never leave you. Do you need a son or an equal partner?Me ex would parade his Mom in front of me and say: Look. Look at her. Isn't she an angel? Then he's tell me how loyal she is. He was making me into a mother figure. He treated her like shit, too, but took care of her and protected her. But she would never leave. When I'd get the hell out for a break because he was being an impossible, childish douche to me, I'd hear from her "You deserted us." Us. And often she would come to my defense. -She was bored as hell with him, and would go into the other room and roll her eyes when he was being selfish. In those moments, he would sigh and agree - with MOM) But she is old, and has no choice. She gave birth to a man who never grew up. You have a choice as to whether you want to take care of someone who cares more about his own sustenance than yours.

@Wet... totally depends on whether they're High or Low functioning. Low functioners, absolutely. High... generally I can, but we can be very good at hiding it as is part of the nature of being high functioning. It's incredibly unlikely that anyone would run into me on the street at peg me as a beeper.

Anon... as previously stated. Yes, there is a lot of cross-over. However. The expression of thos traits differs between NPD and P/S. The motivations and intentions behind the expression of those same categorical traits are different. Intent matters.

I just did a post on Borderline Narcissism which is very different from the expression of NPD narcissism.

You may have built a wall after you got fooled by your ex but that doesn't mean it will prevent it from happening again. You are like a boxer before a fight, 100% certain that he will beat his opponnent, shadow boxing, pacing up and down, screaming. He gets into the ring and gets dominated, two rounds in and he has lost all hope, he is back to square one.

7:58... beepers are terrified of the people that are extremely close to them. Maybe some are terrified of everyone. Personally, if you're not one of a handful of people I'm close too, I could care less and odds are will actively push you out. I do not actually intimidate.

8:11... I do have a lot of walls. I've always had a lot of walls, before and after my narc ex. There's never a guarantee it won't happen again, but I know what to look for now, and I'm not an idiot so as to fall for the same schtick twice. The problem with your analogy is I actually am a fighter. And the reality of the ring is that there's always a winner and a loser. Both go in wanting the win, both go in believing victory will be theirs, neither is right every time, and there's always another round, or another match.

I like the tiger image on today's post. The wind metaphor is the most fitting since creating an effect on people is like an elemental power. Love and honor are on a pedestal for me for they are the two things you cannot hold in your hand yet we all strive to possess such intangibles or to inspire such in others. Admit it.

With 50 million sociopaths on the planet, I do not believe all seeking murder and destruction. And believe once one wrestles enough with your mortality and the destructive impulse the drive for creative has some breathing room for cultivation. It comes down to where one puts their focus and desire for broader impact.

People are just so damn complicated. And then they are not. Just remember Roy Horn of Siegfried and Roy and the tiger attack. Unpredictable yet a presentable risk.

Nietzsche sociopath? no way. I don't know why any s/p would take unpopular positions knowing it would lead to a poor life. My bet is on people like Kant, and who ever else is publicly morality righteous.

FOR HAVEN..just how bad was your narc ex? would you mind talking about it here? im new to this site, and think im with a narc but not sure? am so confused. just want him to leave me be.. but he wont! no matter what i say, and iv said horrible things to him... totally against my nature. i seem to be turning into a version of him and its rotten#

People really do get it all mixed up. I haven't posted here for the past year, but I've checked in periodically. It's always the same old thing. Many women believe they're involved with a sociopath, when the reality is, the relationship stopped suiting the guy's needs and he became an asshole. Instead of looking in the mirror, it's easier to scream, 'Socio!!!'

That said, I am involved with an exceptionally highly functioning antisocial. His exceptional I.Q. and charisma have served him well. He's smart enough to walk any walk, and slay his business opposition at every opportunity. He's got enough things to amuse himself that he doesn't require petty crap to fuel his imagination. He regards 99% of the population with disdain, and sees through crap as few normals ever could.

If he was abusive to me in any way, shape or form, I'd have nothing to do with him. What I provide is a safe haven for him to remove the mask. He doesn't need to pretend to be an altruist with me. The cold hard truth comes out. His viewpoints and brazen antics in the the world at large are creative entertainment for me, and more educational than anything I could possibly learn through 'normal channels'. But if he ever unleashed his crap on me, I wouldn't be writing sob stories here about my big, bad psychopath. I'd move on with my pride intact, knowing I made my choices, and attempt to find normalcy elsewhere in my life.

As for these women who attach themselves to men who chew up their resources and freeload, flipping here and there in business and crime... see a damn good therapist. You need one. So do I - for my own moral base has been somewhat skewed. But that's the price I've paid for my 'life education'

The above sounds like my relationship with my wife. There's always a little abuse with a sociopath, verbal or otherwise so you can't tell me that there is no abuse period. The author calls her boyfriend a tiger which is humorous because my wife calls me her lion. The comparison holds true because like lions we are lazy and soft one minute and the next we are ferocious predators.I have seen the same as openminded in the years on here. Nobody wants to leave their sociopath boyfriend. In all fairness why would they? How boring it would be to date someone else.You have to be realistic in any realtionship. If you are looking for a commitment you are fooling yourself, however if you keep things status quo he will most likely stay. If you try to press him to change the nature of the relationship he will leave.

Most of these stories are unrealistic. These women wrote these stories after reading about sociopaths (they have already chosen to label their ex as sociopaths). They have reconstructed their memory in order to fit that imagine. Less than 1% of the population is S/P. Read any text book on abnormal psychology, Sociopath = psychopath ≠ ASPD. So chances are your, and anyone like you, ex isn't a s/p. Have you considered that You are just a boring, ugly, selfish, envious, over barring, or too much nagging?

Less than 1% of the population is s/p! isn't it more likely that you are at fault here? I cannot imagine what kind of a person would be selfish and evil enough to label someone with a personality disorder to cover her own flaws. What surprises me is that after labeling him as a sociopath, rather than helping him with his mental illness you decided to use the label and demands society to ridicule him. You are worse than the Nazis who forced the jews to ware the start of David because they were just following orders where as you did it out of a need for revenge and hate. If a paraplegic accidentally hit you with his wheel chair, when it got out of control on a rainy day, you will probably yell out "crippled, look its a crippled?" A sociopath is an emotionally crippled person. He goes through life not being able to form any connections with anyone. If you want to know how he feels trying living life without parents, family, and friends. you cannot even imagine the loneliness and torture that he and other sociopaths live with each and everyday.

Imagine if you were disfigured and had to put on a mask each morning. He puts on a mask each morning just so that you might be able to accept him. Now that you have unmasked him and sees him for who he is, you rejected him. Now he will find it harder to trust anyone every again. It is people like you that made him this way.

If you want to still be able to call your self human you should go to him and apologize. Say to him that you are sorry for being insensitive to his needs and that you now know the damage that you have caused.

Anon 11:12... My narc-ex was abusive and made my life a living hell. I'm sure I "made it worse" by not allowing him to do whatever he wanted to (contrary to the assumptions made around here). He was a monster, but I'm not exactly pleasant when pushed so far. I'm more than willing to talk about my narc ex and to you. This board may not be very conducive to it though. Feel free to e-mail me at havennyx@gmail.com . Or jump over to my blog. I was actually just talking a bit about narcissism today.

Don't worry about turning into a narc though. You may just be getting extremely fed up and understandably angry

Tortured and lonely? Without friends and family? See I don't get these sad portrayals of the sociopathic life. Just because you control everyone around you doesn't make a socioptah miserable. People contemplate sociopaths thinking and try to place their emotional needs on them. Its not the case. We areperfectly happy as long as we have power. That's why broken sociopaths who end up serial killing or raping are all underachievers. They could not find any other path to achieve their neccessity of power.

Why because I'm not miserable like you? Let me tell you something about all these people who think being powerful is lonely and money doesn't make happieness. They are powerless and broke. The only reason people like Wet think being powerful is misery is to make themselves feel better about their lack of achievement in life.

i think some s's just enjoy rape and murder more than anything else, and holding a persons life in your hands, spreading fear across entire communities and being able to outsmart the police and leave them powerless to stop you seems like power too me...

I used to imagine I was a tiger - sometimes a panther - for a period when I was kid. Your analogy is well picked, and many have seen the same thing.

I do think you of all people have a great chance at being happy with this guy (in spite of, and because, he's a sociopath or a psychopath; to me he could be either), because you have two fundamental prerequisite features:

1. You're unusually open towards the unconventional - a very rare trait in 'normal' people - and are willing to not insist on a traditional relationship or even that the traditional kinds of emotions being involved from both of you.

2. You know he's what contemporary society calls a sociopath, a psychopath or AsPD'er, and you have the fundamental knowledge about what this means.

And there's a third thing I shoult include as a strength of yours:

3. You love him, and you also love some of the qualities in life that we (psychopaths and sociopaths) thrive on. In fact, we wouldn't last long without what psychology contemptuously calls "thrills" or "excessive stimulation".

Most 'normal' people prefer safety, a life that doesn't have too large waves too often. It can be great for a while, but if it continues most people begin to suffer from anxiety. The psychopath or sociopath are given the blame when it persists, not the 'normal' person who stays in spite of not liking that kind of life.

As you say, your man can be tamed to a point. It's an illusion, of course, he only seems like he gets tamed because he wants to play along. But why should that matter? The main thing is that you both are having fun.

i never really understood why the PCL factor 1 traits were indicative of both narcissism and of primary psychopathy.

ukan - you say nobody wants to leave their socio bf. girls who bother to find a website sympathetic to socios in order to understand them better don't want to leave their socio bf. there's a big difference.

This sheer crap! If all racists were psychopaths we'd be more like the norm, we'd make up the majority of people in the world.

Indeed, I've never even met a psychopath who was a racist. I've met a few who pretended to be racists, but that doesn't make them racists. You do know there's a difference between pretense and actual viewpoints, yes? (Of course you do. I think you've been hasty here).

Ans you haven't researched the definitions of the words you use.

they comform to a code and forget all other morality.

What you say here is about sociopaths, not psychopaths.

Psychopaths appear completely normal, self assured and might even be charming, they do not care for anyone, can't connect.

That is true. We can appear to be like your neighbor, or we can appear to be anything else. It all depends on what we want you to see at the time.

How can you know this last sentiment and still say that nonsense above?

The difference between malignant narcissism and psychopathy is first of all in what drives our behavior, which can seem very much alike - which is also the reason so many people think they're the same thing.

A Narcissist's behavior is driven by his need to be the best, the need to be admired, the need to be the strongest, i.e., though the need is foremost that others believe these things about him, only second that he really have the qualities.

You can easily find out if a person is a narcissist: He'll get hurt if you question or damage his public image.

A psychopath will merely move on. It truly doesn't touch us in any serious or profound way when we get 'unmasked' or outed.

@ Wet, yes - 1% are. Mine knows he is. I know he is. And let me tell you, it is his ability to make ruthless decisions that has landed him where he is. He's not some poor creature I've diagnosed. He's a power-player of the highest form, and I know enough about him to know precisely what he is. We don't tap-dance.

He's my lover. I am married (fire away, moral majority - if they exist here in any form) and our relationship works. He's safe to me. He'll never cling to me, encouraging me to leave my life. We are both aware of what we get out of it.

@UKan. Sure, there's always going to be manipulation and some form of abuse. He certainly manipulated me into our relationship and set the terms. In those days, I had normal expectations and it slayed me at times. But I'm a quick study. I enjoy the dance. And you are absolutely right - if you're with an exceptionally high-functioning sociopath (the highest levels of the corporate world and government have plenty in their midst) then nothing can be more intoxicating. I don't deny it. The man intoxicates me. I wouldn't have it any other way.

Ahhhh, openminded, you are married. And hubby is a cuckold to a socio-lover. How romantic and highly functional. I know this pattern well. I live kind of an "Anais Nin" life myself. My favorite historical model of the fruits of this kind of relationship is expressed between Émilie du Châtelet and Voltaire, in the 1700's.

Intoxication opens the mind=passion.

I have never loved or married assholes. Perhaps brilliant men, angry men, aspies or anti-social. Nobody's perfect yet when decorum is expected and affection expressed you realize true compassion is deep strength. Careful though, there are dangers in living outside societies expectations as much as freedoms.

ooooooooo.....marriage....like the concept has any meaning at all, only a fuckin' loser marries.....and gets had for cash......the marriage institution itself doesn't jive with human nature....and was only "created" so hos could feel "sluttier" when they cheat.......

"If you want to still be able to call your self human you should go to him and apologize. Say to him that you are sorry for being insensitive to his needs and that you now know the damage that you have caused"

LOL!

sadism rules!?

you cannot cause a sociopath damage unless his self-preservation was compromised ie: you gave him up to the police.

maaaaan i wish i had a beeper girl, it would be like a constant ego stroke....... ohhh hunnie please help me im dying okay ill save you :) okay bitch i am tired of saving you now its time to DOMINATE you slappy slappy slap slap

as long as she knows what time it is then i really don't see any problem. as long as she's not boo'hoo'ing and crying or being depressed over him or this or that or seeking self help books for the devastation he has caused or will cause then IT IS WHAT IT IS. mute point really.

This was an interesting read.I feel this relates to the way I feel in my current relationship;He plays his games and I simply stay for the show.Until recently I changed up the routine.I fought back.He didn't very well like that in fact.His mask cracked and he went into a state of panic.Ha so amusing..

This, is what needs to be explored and exposed in its deepest darkest depths. Everything else here is like flaying a dead horse already. Why are we so uncompromising in accepting contradiction and fogginess in the world of men? Isn't it odd how women have historically succeeded so well in avoiding this level of scrutiny whilst hardly remaining insignificant? Would those who can articulate, be willing to examine and debate about the evolution of their arsenal of survival and control attributes and the true breadth of their world? In my whole life including what I see here, the only self examination women have customarily engaged in, mostly relates to how they are being perceived. I mean seriously, how can that be all there is to it when almost all human 'states of being' critically rests upon them?

He has ultimately won. You think that he is a Tiger that can be tamed. You are on a sociopath forum talking with ME about your personal sociopath. ME gave advice, but you have chosen to disregard it because of how well you think you know this person. You are there utter slave. He could make you do anything. He owns you. He has accomplished all he wants with you. Now its just a matter of time. time = boredom. Your time will come. He will abandon you like he does everything. He will move on and kick you to the side. Thus is life. :)

Oh, honey child. I once felt as you do. You are so delusional. You may be able to romanticize the dynamic in this way for a little while, but it will turn on you one day, out of nowhere, and you won't know what hit you.

Then you will be singing a different song.

I will be sad for you in advance, because it is inevitable that you will fall, and fall hard. I hope you survive it.

I was in a five month relationship with what I deem a sociopath. He is good looking, charming and come to find out, a compulsive liar, thief, conman and excellent and telling me what I wanted to hear. I figure he must have taken man classes at school on just what to say and what not to say to women. I can't spell for shit and I wonder if he has some sort of learning disability which I have read on this site may be more common for sociopaths. When everything "went down" a few months ago and I told him that he is very good at the game, he stated, "yes I am good, very good and I don't even feel all that sorry about it." He has since moved on which is what they normally do, and I have since gotten him in trouble with the law and been a thorn in his side and will continue to be jut because....

It is true what anonymous says about the sociaopath never being tamed, always winning and than becoming bored and abandoning the so-called "Tiger". I did not realize I was in love with a sociopath until after the relationship ended. I than found out I was the only one who thought we were boyfriend and girlfriend. I had never met anyone so deceitful and so charming at the same time. He was someone I normally would not have gotten involved with. I had so much more going on than he did but he was so endearing and seemed to need my help. I found myself mothering him which is something I do not do in relationships. He used me for financial gain (as much as he could anyway, although I was very carefull in that department). He also could not spell, poor impulse control and was always either getting in trouble with the law for little things like petty theft or driving on a suspended license. He got caught in the majority of his lies. and in fact, there were times he would lie and didn't even need to. The drama was just too much. I still did not end it until I realized there must be some other woman in the picture. I would have done pretty much anything for him, and all I can say is, I am glad I was older and not in my twenties where I really could have been used and abused. It bothers me that he feels no guilt, and the only time he lets any of his actions get to him is when he gets caught. He has everyone who is not close to him and know of his antics bamboozeled. I think what bothers me is the fact that no one can believe, such as aquaintances he sees every couple of months at high school reunion get togethers etc...,that he could ever be capable of such behavior. Due to his charm and outgoiing personality he just keeps moving on from victim to the next victim. It has left me with bitterness and a lack of trust for any future relationships which is actually the biggest hurt of all.

"he is my tiger and I want to stay in his arena". Jesus you dumb bitch, you might as well be in the Colosseum in ancient Rome because you are going to be DEVOURED while everyone watches. and the worst part is that you volunteer for this. DO you have any sense of self?

Featured comment

Of course, my default is still to intuitively analyze every outcome and situation and achieve the best result, but it's more interesting to let people remain a variable and go in their own direction, rather than nudging them in the direction I prefer. Interacting with people WITHOUT trying to control them is a new paradigm for me.