Quote: I find in interesting that no one is concerned by the fact though.

No one is concerned because you keep changing your argument everytime it is refuted. First it was 'Pro athletes would wipe the floor with MMAers'. Now it's 'Pro athletes can be competitve with MMAers'. That's a big difference my friend.

_________________________"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Quote:Sigh, you guys really don't get it, the point is he has NO training to speak of 2 months? Who can do what in 2 months?

I'll admit I stretched this but with that being said, not all MMA people had "10 years" of training to reach the top. Rich Franklin certainly didn't before he decided to experiment with MMA in his backyard/shed with some buddies and then hopped in the ring to try his hand, and he was a school teacher. And really, even if you gave somebody like Morton 10 years to train, that may not even make a difference. What you are forgetting is what you have been preaching, that some people have natural talent for things. Some people don't need years of training to be good fighters, they are naturally good fighters and why they fight. There are top MMA people getting beat by up and comers that have a quarter of their training and experience.

The thing with MMA is that they are not signed on million dollar deals guaranteeing them a spot in the limelight and their performance dictates if they fight. Yes football players that don't perform may not get to be on the first string but their performance can be affected by the others around them if they are playing well. In the ring/cage it is the fighter and only the fighter that they can rely on. They have more demands and I honestly believe stand the biggest to lose if they are boring or continue to lose. They can't keep collecting a hefty pay cheque or go to another team to try their hand. And as we all know that a hefty pay cheque in the UFC is peanuts compared to football.

NFL football players have 16 games a year only unless they make it to the play offs and Super Bowl, and a few preseason games. They are not on the field at all times and plays don't last but a few seconds to maybe a minute. They get breaks at the huddle or on the sidelines and depending on if they are actually the play maker or not dictates how much they have to perform. I have the greatest respect for football players as I've played and I am a big fan and it is my favorite sport of all time and always will be. But I don't buy in that the elite of the NFL with training are going to be top MMA fighters; they are two different sports and require different training and mindset. With the aggressive tendencies of the football players, I would bet very few have the fighting mentality which I think is one of the biggest things that perhaps a MMA fighter has.

I see things for how they are, not how I'd like to believe they are. Just like the old saying about which martial art is the best and we say it depends on the person, so does fighting in MMA. I don't care if you are a teacher, bouncer, football player, wrestler, martial artist or a stay at home dad, unless you have the fighting mentality and the skills to go with it then you won't perform well.

As for Bob Sapp, his pure size has always been a factor. I have seen Bob Sapp cry and his ring guys force him to fight when he didn't want to. Size does count but not always if you get somebody with the right mentality. Bob Sapp was a poor football player and only was in it for his size, unlike his brother who has actual talent. In professional wrestling he wasn't that great and got by on his size. I think the same thing for Bob Sapp is true in MMA. He needs more skill but for sure his size has carried him through. I will say one thing for this guy, he's a good actor as he was great in "The Longest Yard". I like the guy overall and if he can get by on his size then good for him. This just proves that natural talent is not necessary.

_________________________"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

Quote:Dude......Bob Sapp is a gigantic man. Of course he was knocking out people 2/3 his size. That proves nothing more than "bigger is better". And again, until Johnnie starts whupping the champions, that example is worthless.

Dude....these are professional fighters and this is Martial Arts. Sure size matters, if the fighters were close to equal in ability, but a professional fighter should be able to dispatch even a bigger opponent with low level skills.(some might say thats a major part of MA).

Dereck, first thank you for you thoughtful and well written post, it's nice when someone takes the time to explain their point, instead of just calling an opinion "invalid" with nothing to back up.

I have to admit I at times have overstated for effect, it's the curse of a forum.

Quote: There are top MMA people getting beat by up and comers that have a quarter of their training and experience.

This goes to my point about magnitude of people and development of the sport. In a professional sport if you have people like Rich Franklin coming on the scene and shooting to the top, you are not yet developed as a sport. This is not a knock it's simply the way things happen.

Your point about the fight mentality is well taken, but I think you find plenty of that in any decent football player,it's war on the field.

Football is not the same conditioning as MMA, I have never said MMA isn't very difficult and like boxing the action is constant, so conditioning needs to be modified for the sport you are doing, even an elite athlete needs to get in MMA shape.

But my overall point has always been the "caliber of athlete" and the guys who play in the NFL are extraordinary, they have to be to beat out all the other people who are fighting for those precious few roster spots.

Nobody is taking up football in their backyard then going to play in the NFL (well it kinda happened once and they made a movie about it).

I'm enjoying the debate, I needed something exciting on here to get involved in and this is a good start.

Quote:Your point about the fight mentality is well taken, but I think you find plenty of that in any decent football player,it's war on the field.

I wanted to address this point as I think that we can't debate the rest too much longer. I played football and on the field I was aggressive and loved to hit and be hit. In martial arts I like to grapple, I love to throw people and I like being thrown. Many sports I was very aggressive and if you came and trained with me everybody would certainly tell you the same. Many people thing I can be too aggressive. However I don't have that fighting mentality, or don't believe I have. I'm just an aggressive person that puts my all into things and has fun doing it but being beat up on the level that say a MMA fighter has to do, sorry I don't think I'm that guy. However the war on the field in football I loved and still would love. I work hard and play hard and why I am always so battered and bruised and it seems continually am having surgeries to repair things. We may disagree on this but the war on the field I don't see as a fighter's mentality. Both aggressive but I believe different.

Thanks for the debate.

_________________________"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

Quote: Sure size matters, if the fighters were close to equal in ability, but a professional fighter should be able to dispatch even a bigger opponent with low level skills.(some might say thats a major part of MA).

The vast majority of his opponents were either no-name fighters or 100lb+ less weight than him. So I direct you back to your intial statement here. Jerome LeBanner, with a mediocre fight record and a 100 lb weight deficit fought Bob to a draw. Fujita, with a 110 lb weight deficit beat Bob. Noguiera, with a 120 lb weight deficit, beat Bob.

So what was your point again?

Quote:instead of just calling an opinion "invalid" with nothing to back up.

BWAHA

Edited by MattJ (05/23/0705:19 PM)

_________________________"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

My apologies. I attempted to split this thread from the original "Mayweather" topic, and bungled it somehow. Only the posts responding to the one I split got moved, not all of them following, as I intended. I will get with the webmaster to see if he can re-integrate the thread.

Quote:Jerome LeBanner, with a mediocre fight record and a 100 lb weight deficit fought Bob to a draw.

This was the fight in question that Sapp was crying and wanting to quit. It wasn't your normal fight as the first and third round were stand up only, K-1 style where as the second and forth rounds were full MMA such as UFC/Pride. Sapp did not want to go back after the second round and was actually physically crying and his corner made him go back in. Bob was owned for the better part of these as he tanked after the first round and LeBanner should have been the clear victor ... dam judges.

_________________________"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

Second I have always said "with training" when I was referring to an athlete crossing over to MMA, I never said anyone could walk into the ring with no training and win.(even though it has already happened)

Bob Sapp should have been bounced out of MMA as soon as he got here by any professional fighter, he was not.

He was finally handled but it took one of the best fighter to ever come out of MMA.