Npret wrote:OP it's fine to share your experience. Sorry it has been not what you expected from a professional school.

There was a thread here a few years ago where a then current student was extremely harsh about the school but for other reasons. So you are not alone in expressing unhappiness with this school.

In case I wasn't clear, I absolutely believe your experience is worth sharing. I just wanted to contextualize what I read because some of the claims are pretty incendiary.

I agree, but seriously, if you're looking for diversity, specifically on an international level, what the heck are you expecting at Minnesota? I don't have much sympathy for those who graduated six figures in debt from Cooley due to a lack of research and I don't have much sympathy here, either. It seems to me that OP didn't do much research before attending and is now *shocked* that UMN has fewer international students and less inclusion than a school in a larger city on a coast.

I'm sorry you have had a bad experience, but if you wanted diversity and a warm climate.. well, I'm not sure why you're at MN.

You could blame me. Your conclusion may also be correct. "if you wanted diversity and a warm climate.. well, I'm not sure why you're at MN."

Give up UMN, many people let you give up.

I'm not trying to blame you. I sincerely apologize if you have been a victim of racism or discrimination because that is not acceptable on any level. Like others have said, I truly hope there is not a systematic problem and if there is, the school's administration should be working to fix it.

However, you also need to be realistic. If you wanted to be surrounded by international students, again, why would you go to Minnesota? I don't blame you, but I also think it's rather silly to expect sympathy when a smidgen of research could have quite possibly avoided you the problems you seem to be having.

Thank you.First, as I said, the racism is rare here.Second, I am not expecting sympathy, and my purpose is simple, please read my other posts:

"1. The purpose of this article is to give advice to OTHERS. So others (International Students, African American, Asian, Latino students) would know even without your so-called 'smidgen of research.'

2. However I would have researched, I could not have imagined that here many local JD students barely talk with international JD and LLMs, not to mention other inclusion matters."

UVA2B wrote:I'm sorry you haven't felt included as an international student at UMN, that really sucks. And I sincerely hope there isn't some level of systemic racism prevalent there, because institutional racism categorically sucks. But in all fairness to the institution, what you've described is mostly a sour personal experience that colors everything you see. You could be spot on, but from what I just read, you are describing an anecdotal experience in your law school community. This is akin to posting online how your ex (or mom, or dad, etc.) has treated you poorly. It's sad, but it's hardly suggestive of some endemic problem at UMN.

I respect your feeling of not being included at UMN and in Minnesota, but this post feels too personally motivated to ring true on a structural level. I'm sorry you feel this way though, sincerely.

Thank you very much for understanding and I agree that those experiences are quite anecdotal. Some of the experiences do not hurt my feeling about other local students who are kind and open, do not see people with color.

However, If you ask 10 international students (I have actually discussed with quite a few, not just me that is "colored"), I would say 8 out 10 would not agree that inclusion is good here. I simply hope the law school could do more to care about inclusion instead of letting the law school goes with singled culture.

I'm sorry, are you trying to politicize my use of the word "color?" All I meant by that is you're seeing your experience through your own lens, and as such you might see things differently based on your own experience. I didn't say you're wrong, and I didn't affirm you're right, I just pointed out that it's possible your negative impressions are personal to you. If you have substantive opinions from others that international students are treated poorly at UMN, that's different and worth this public service announcement.

All I'm asking for here is you quantifying actual instances where you were mistreated by fellow students or by the institution. If the experience of international students at UMN is that bad, you should have ample specific examples to prove that point to reinforce your claim.

Thank you for the explanation. Appreciate it.

Just wanna say many international students as well as students of other ethnical groups share the same view.

Do you see how this is not persuasive? I asked for specific instances where your experience is endemic of the overall culture, you responded with, "don't worry, other international students and students of other ethnic groups share the same view," while providing nothing substantive. It's hard to take you seriously when you're given every opportunity to point out the wrongs being done to international students and other minority groups. I realize not everything is quantifiable, and never would I suggest the inability to flesh out how the institution discriminates against you means no discrimination exists. But you're disparaging an entire academic institution with no basis for it, and that's equally problematic from an institutional level.

UVA2B wrote:I'm sorry you haven't felt included as an international student at UMN, that really sucks. And I sincerely hope there isn't some level of systemic racism prevalent there, because institutional racism categorically sucks. But in all fairness to the institution, what you've described is mostly a sour personal experience that colors everything you see. You could be spot on, but from what I just read, you are describing an anecdotal experience in your law school community. This is akin to posting online how your ex (or mom, or dad, etc.) has treated you poorly. It's sad, but it's hardly suggestive of some endemic problem at UMN.

I respect your feeling of not being included at UMN and in Minnesota, but this post feels too personally motivated to ring true on a structural level. I'm sorry you feel this way though, sincerely.

Thank you very much for understanding and I agree that those experiences are quite anecdotal. Some of the experiences do not hurt my feeling about other local students who are kind and open, do not see people with color.

However, If you ask 10 international students (I have actually discussed with quite a few, not just me that is "colored"), I would say 8 out 10 would not agree that inclusion is good here. I simply hope the law school could do more to care about inclusion instead of letting the law school goes with singled culture.

I'm sorry, are you trying to politicize my use of the word "color?" All I meant by that is you're seeing your experience through your own lens, and as such you might see things differently based on your own experience. I didn't say you're wrong, and I didn't affirm you're right, I just pointed out that it's possible your negative impressions are personal to you. If you have substantive opinions from others that international students are treated poorly at UMN, that's different and worth this public service announcement.

All I'm asking for here is you quantifying actual instances where you were mistreated by fellow students or by the institution. If the experience of international students at UMN is that bad, you should have ample specific examples to prove that point to reinforce your claim.

Thank you for the explanation. Appreciate it.

Just wanna say many international students as well as students of other ethnical groups share the same view.

Do you see how this is not persuasive? I asked for specific instances where your experience is endemic of the overall culture, you responded with, "don't worry, other international students and students of other ethnic groups share the same view," while providing nothing substantive. It's hard to take you seriously when you're given every opportunity to point out the wrongs being done to international students and other minority groups. I realize not everything is quantifiable, and never would I suggest the inability to flesh out how the institution discriminates against you means no discrimination exists. But you're disparaging an entire academic institution with no basis for it, and that's equally problematic from an institutional level.

Do I need to name the students who said me so? Will there be a hearsay problem? It is not a trial. You could definitely not believe me.

The student board, the lack of efforts on inclusion and the snickering are facts. Do I need to provide testimony of them to be "persuasive?"

UVA2B wrote:I'm sorry you haven't felt included as an international student at UMN, that really sucks. And I sincerely hope there isn't some level of systemic racism prevalent there, because institutional racism categorically sucks. But in all fairness to the institution, what you've described is mostly a sour personal experience that colors everything you see. You could be spot on, but from what I just read, you are describing an anecdotal experience in your law school community. This is akin to posting online how your ex (or mom, or dad, etc.) has treated you poorly. It's sad, but it's hardly suggestive of some endemic problem at UMN.

I respect your feeling of not being included at UMN and in Minnesota, but this post feels too personally motivated to ring true on a structural level. I'm sorry you feel this way though, sincerely.

Thank you very much for understanding and I agree that those experiences are quite anecdotal. Some of the experiences do not hurt my feeling about other local students who are kind and open, do not see people with color.

However, If you ask 10 international students (I have actually discussed with quite a few, not just me that is "colored"), I would say 8 out 10 would not agree that inclusion is good here. I simply hope the law school could do more to care about inclusion instead of letting the law school goes with singled culture.

I'm sorry, are you trying to politicize my use of the word "color?" All I meant by that is you're seeing your experience through your own lens, and as such you might see things differently based on your own experience. I didn't say you're wrong, and I didn't affirm you're right, I just pointed out that it's possible your negative impressions are personal to you. If you have substantive opinions from others that international students are treated poorly at UMN, that's different and worth this public service announcement.

All I'm asking for here is you quantifying actual instances where you were mistreated by fellow students or by the institution. If the experience of international students at UMN is that bad, you should have ample specific examples to prove that point to reinforce your claim.

Thank you for the explanation. Appreciate it.

Just wanna say many international students as well as students of other ethnical groups share the same view.

Do you see how this is not persuasive? I asked for specific instances where your experience is endemic of the overall culture, you responded with, "don't worry, other international students and students of other ethnic groups share the same view," while providing nothing substantive. It's hard to take you seriously when you're given every opportunity to point out the wrongs being done to international students and other minority groups. I realize not everything is quantifiable, and never would I suggest the inability to flesh out how the institution discriminates against you means no discrimination exists. But you're disparaging an entire academic institution with no basis for it, and that's equally problematic from an institutional level.

Do I need to name the students who said me so? Will there be a hearsay problem? It is not a trial. You could definitely not believe me.

The student board, the lack of efforts on inclusion and the snickering are facts. Do I need to provide testimony of them to be "persuasive?"

Frankly, yes, you need to be more specific here. I'm not asking for you to name students, and I'm not asking for a criminal presentation. All I'm asking for is things like, "while I've been here, students actively avoid conversations with me because I'm an international student. Additionally, I was prevented from joining (insert X, Y, Z group), and I suspect it was because I'm an international student." It's still anecdotal, and deserving of scrutiny, but you're effectively calling an entire academic institution racist and xenophobic toward students they've admitted to that institution, but you continually refuse to catalogue the ways that the institution has discriminated against you personally. That's really bad.

UVA2B wrote:I'm sorry you haven't felt included as an international student at UMN, that really sucks. And I sincerely hope there isn't some level of systemic racism prevalent there, because institutional racism categorically sucks. But in all fairness to the institution, what you've described is mostly a sour personal experience that colors everything you see. You could be spot on, but from what I just read, you are describing an anecdotal experience in your law school community. This is akin to posting online how your ex (or mom, or dad, etc.) has treated you poorly. It's sad, but it's hardly suggestive of some endemic problem at UMN.

I respect your feeling of not being included at UMN and in Minnesota, but this post feels too personally motivated to ring true on a structural level. I'm sorry you feel this way though, sincerely.

Thank you very much for understanding and I agree that those experiences are quite anecdotal. Some of the experiences do not hurt my feeling about other local students who are kind and open, do not see people with color.

However, If you ask 10 international students (I have actually discussed with quite a few, not just me that is "colored"), I would say 8 out 10 would not agree that inclusion is good here. I simply hope the law school could do more to care about inclusion instead of letting the law school goes with singled culture.

I'm sorry, are you trying to politicize my use of the word "color?" All I meant by that is you're seeing your experience through your own lens, and as such you might see things differently based on your own experience. I didn't say you're wrong, and I didn't affirm you're right, I just pointed out that it's possible your negative impressions are personal to you. If you have substantive opinions from others that international students are treated poorly at UMN, that's different and worth this public service announcement.

All I'm asking for here is you quantifying actual instances where you were mistreated by fellow students or by the institution. If the experience of international students at UMN is that bad, you should have ample specific examples to prove that point to reinforce your claim.

Thank you for the explanation. Appreciate it.

Just wanna say many international students as well as students of other ethnical groups share the same view.

Do you see how this is not persuasive? I asked for specific instances where your experience is endemic of the overall culture, you responded with, "don't worry, other international students and students of other ethnic groups share the same view," while providing nothing substantive. It's hard to take you seriously when you're given every opportunity to point out the wrongs being done to international students and other minority groups. I realize not everything is quantifiable, and never would I suggest the inability to flesh out how the institution discriminates against you means no discrimination exists. But you're disparaging an entire academic institution with no basis for it, and that's equally problematic from an institutional level.

Do I need to name the students who said me so? Will there be a hearsay problem? It is not a trial. You could definitely not believe me.

The student board, the lack of efforts on inclusion and the snickering are facts. Do I need to provide testimony of them to be "persuasive?"

Frankly, yes, you need to be more specific here. I'm not asking for you to name students, and I'm not asking for a criminal presentation. All I'm asking for is things like, "while I've been here, students actively avoid conversations with me because I'm an international student. Additionally, I was prevented from joining (insert X, Y, Z group), and I suspect it was because I'm an international student." It's still anecdotal, and deserving of scrutiny, but you're effectively calling an entire academic institution racist and xenophobic toward students they've admitted to that institution, but you continually refuse to catalogue the ways that the institution has discriminated against you personally. That's really bad.

I personally do not wan to say much about specifics while I am still at school. Please understand.

For the stuff inside your quotation mark, I do hear both of them from a few students, though not many. I think xenophobia is more prevalent than racist, but who knows...and I don't like to link everything to racism. It is boring.

The fact is, I hope more inclusion, I hope more inclusion, I hope more inclusion. Maybe I can post more after graduation.

UVA2B wrote:I'm sorry you haven't felt included as an international student at UMN, that really sucks. And I sincerely hope there isn't some level of systemic racism prevalent there, because institutional racism categorically sucks. But in all fairness to the institution, what you've described is mostly a sour personal experience that colors everything you see. You could be spot on, but from what I just read, you are describing an anecdotal experience in your law school community. This is akin to posting online how your ex (or mom, or dad, etc.) has treated you poorly. It's sad, but it's hardly suggestive of some endemic problem at UMN.

I respect your feeling of not being included at UMN and in Minnesota, but this post feels too personally motivated to ring true on a structural level. I'm sorry you feel this way though, sincerely.

Thank you very much for understanding and I agree that those experiences are quite anecdotal. Some of the experiences do not hurt my feeling about other local students who are kind and open, do not see people with color.

However, If you ask 10 international students (I have actually discussed with quite a few, not just me that is "colored"), I would say 8 out 10 would not agree that inclusion is good here. I simply hope the law school could do more to care about inclusion instead of letting the law school goes with singled culture.

I'm sorry, are you trying to politicize my use of the word "color?" All I meant by that is you're seeing your experience through your own lens, and as such you might see things differently based on your own experience. I didn't say you're wrong, and I didn't affirm you're right, I just pointed out that it's possible your negative impressions are personal to you. If you have substantive opinions from others that international students are treated poorly at UMN, that's different and worth this public service announcement.

All I'm asking for here is you quantifying actual instances where you were mistreated by fellow students or by the institution. If the experience of international students at UMN is that bad, you should have ample specific examples to prove that point to reinforce your claim.

Thank you for the explanation. Appreciate it.

Just wanna say many international students as well as students of other ethnical groups share the same view.

Do you see how this is not persuasive? I asked for specific instances where your experience is endemic of the overall culture, you responded with, "don't worry, other international students and students of other ethnic groups share the same view," while providing nothing substantive. It's hard to take you seriously when you're given every opportunity to point out the wrongs being done to international students and other minority groups. I realize not everything is quantifiable, and never would I suggest the inability to flesh out how the institution discriminates against you means no discrimination exists. But you're disparaging an entire academic institution with no basis for it, and that's equally problematic from an institutional level.

Do I need to name the students who said me so? Will there be a hearsay problem? It is not a trial. You could definitely not believe me.

The student board, the lack of efforts on inclusion and the snickering are facts. Do I need to provide testimony of them to be "persuasive?"

Frankly, yes, you need to be more specific here. I'm not asking for you to name students, and I'm not asking for a criminal presentation. All I'm asking for is things like, "while I've been here, students actively avoid conversations with me because I'm an international student. Additionally, I was prevented from joining (insert X, Y, Z group), and I suspect it was because I'm an international student." It's still anecdotal, and deserving of scrutiny, but you're effectively calling an entire academic institution racist and xenophobic toward students they've admitted to that institution, but you continually refuse to catalogue the ways that the institution has discriminated against you personally. That's really bad.

I'm following the examples given. I'm not sure why you can't? Maybe OP wants to maintain a bit of anonymity? I haven't seen UM students saying it isn't true. All I see are people saying OP should have known better.

OP's message is getting lost because his/her choice of UMN for LLM itself is highly questionable. And there is something to be said about LLM as such and why LLM students have the kind of experiences they do, even at top schools. But that's for another time.

I take no issue with the anonymity, and I don't hold any value in the "should have known better" logic. And more than anything, I just wanted actual instances, even if vague, that outlined the claims the OP was making. I understand the importance of anonymity for these types of claims, but I guess the claims don't hold much value to me in proving the problem if one doesn't accept their claims without a sliver of proof.

To frame this differently: what is stopping a random new poster from making the exact claims about any institution without any basis of support that is credible? I want to believe the OP that they are speaking truthfully, but they haven't given me enough yet to believe they are. Perhaps I'm cynical and perhaps I'm missing something that lends credibility to these claims, but I personally wanted more to prove these claims. If OP doesn't want to provide that, I understand, but I remain skeptical. In my perverse way, I guess I was encouraging the OP to outline the problems, but I understand that might not be possible.

Npret wrote:I'm following the examples given. I'm not sure why you can't? Maybe OP wants to maintain a bit of anonymity? I haven't seen UM students saying it isn't true. All I see are people saying OP should have known better.

Because I want to be thorough: what examples? Lacking inclusion? Vague ideas of discrimination against international students without actual evidence? I guess I'm seeing it as confirmation of a bias against the OP vice proof of a bias. It's probably semantics, but nothing I've read so far is actual evidence of problems. I believe it's possibly there, but nothing I've seen here dispositively proves a problem.

I'm following the examples given. I'm not sure why you can't? Maybe OP wants to maintain a bit of anonymity? I haven't seen UM students saying it isn't true. All I see are people saying OP should have known better.

People know each other and it does not feel right. Perhaps I should report to the law school directly. This thread is getting lost questioning my originally choice...

Last edited by lichtblickz on Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

Npret wrote:I'm following the examples given. I'm not sure why you can't? Maybe OP wants to maintain a bit of anonymity? I haven't seen UM students saying it isn't true. All I see are people saying OP should have known better.

Because I want to be thorough: what examples? Lacking inclusion? Vague ideas of discrimination against international students without actual evidence? I guess I'm seeing it as confirmation of a bias against the OP vice proof of a bias. It's probably semantics, but nothing I've read so far is actual evidence of problems. I believe it's possibly there, but nothing I've seen here dispositively proves a problem.

True. You can discuss with me privately without publishing it if you want.

Npret wrote:OP it's fine to share your experience. Sorry it has been not what you expected from a professional school.

There was a thread here a few years ago where a then current student was extremely harsh about the school but for other reasons. So you are not alone in expressing unhappiness with this school.

In case I wasn't clear, I absolutely believe your experience is worth sharing. I just wanted to contextualize what I read because some of the claims are pretty incendiary.

I agree, but seriously, if you're looking for diversity, specifically on an international level, what the heck are you expecting at Minnesota? I don't have much sympathy for those who graduated six figures in debt from Cooley due to a lack of research and I don't have much sympathy here, either. It seems to me that OP didn't do much research before attending and is now *shocked* that UMN has fewer international students and less inclusion than a school in a larger city on a coast.

I'm sorry you have had a bad experience, but if you wanted diversity and a warm climate.. well, I'm not sure why you're at MN.

You could blame me. Your conclusion may also be correct. "if you wanted diversity and a warm climate.. well, I'm not sure why you're at MN."

Give up UMN, many people let you give up.

I'm not trying to blame you. I sincerely apologize if you have been a victim of racism or discrimination because that is not acceptable on any level. Like others have said, I truly hope there is not a systematic problem and if there is, the school's administration should be working to fix it.

However, you also need to be realistic. If you wanted to be surrounded by international students, again, why would you go to Minnesota? I don't blame you, but I also think it's rather silly to expect sympathy when a smidgen of research could have quite possibly avoided you the problems you seem to be having.

I don't think the OP wanted to be surrounded by international students. Rather, he probably wanted to feel like a part of the larger law school community and to make "domestic" friends. And he's saying that did not happen.OP, I am an international (JD) student at a big city T-14. For what it's worth, while I do have some "domestic" law school friends and while I probably would have a few more had my personal circumstances not prevented me from socializing more, I know what you're talking about. It's a bit like the class issue that has recently been debated a lot here, i.e., by virtue of having a pretty different background, you're (un)intentionally excluded from some conversations, which then leads to you seeming awkward/Aspie, which then leads to you maybe not being invited to the next whatever... and so on. It's hard to explain and hard to understand if you haven't been through it, which is why I think that people on this thread--although well-meaning--cannot understand why you can't provide specific examples of "discrimination"/bias/being excluded. Although I will say this: no one can tell me that they have taken a class with an outspoken LLM with a strong accent (excluding British--do those even count?--and maybe French ones) and not seen a JD or two make faces while they speak. It's sad and disappointing, but oh does it happen... (I mean, even this board likes classes full of LLMs because (paraphrasing) "they will occupy the bottom of the curve as their English is not great.")

Npret wrote:OP it's fine to share your experience. Sorry it has been not what you expected from a professional school.

There was a thread here a few years ago where a then current student was extremely harsh about the school but for other reasons. So you are not alone in expressing unhappiness with this school.

In case I wasn't clear, I absolutely believe your experience is worth sharing. I just wanted to contextualize what I read because some of the claims are pretty incendiary.

I agree, but seriously, if you're looking for diversity, specifically on an international level, what the heck are you expecting at Minnesota? I don't have much sympathy for those who graduated six figures in debt from Cooley due to a lack of research and I don't have much sympathy here, either. It seems to me that OP didn't do much research before attending and is now *shocked* that UMN has fewer international students and less inclusion than a school in a larger city on a coast.

I'm sorry you have had a bad experience, but if you wanted diversity and a warm climate.. well, I'm not sure why you're at MN.

You could blame me. Your conclusion may also be correct. "if you wanted diversity and a warm climate.. well, I'm not sure why you're at MN."

Give up UMN, many people let you give up.

I'm not trying to blame you. I sincerely apologize if you have been a victim of racism or discrimination because that is not acceptable on any level. Like others have said, I truly hope there is not a systematic problem and if there is, the school's administration should be working to fix it.

However, you also need to be realistic. If you wanted to be surrounded by international students, again, why would you go to Minnesota? I don't blame you, but I also think it's rather silly to expect sympathy when a smidgen of research could have quite possibly avoided you the problems you seem to be having.

I don't think the OP wanted to be surrounded by international students. Rather, he probably wanted to feel like a part of the larger law school community and to make "domestic" friends. And he's saying that did not happen.OP, I am an international (JD) student at a big city T-14. For what it's worth, while I do have some "domestic" law school friends and while I probably would have a few more had my personal circumstances not prevented me from socializing more, I know what you're talking about. It's a bit like the class issue that has recently been debated a lot here, i.e., by virtue of having a pretty different background, you're (un)intentionally excluded from some conversations, which then leads to you seeming awkward/Aspie, which then leads to you maybe not being invited to the next whatever... and so on. It's hard to explain and hard to understand if you haven't been through it, which is why I think that people on this thread--although well-meaning--cannot understand why you can't provide specific examples of "discrimination"/bias/being excluded. Although I will say this: no one can tell me that they have taken a class with an outspoken LLM with a strong accent (excluding British--do those even count?--and maybe French ones) and not seen a JD or two make faces while they speak. It's sad and disappointing, but oh does it happen... (I mean, even this board likes classes full of LLMs because (paraphrasing) "they will occupy the bottom of the curve as their English is not great.")

Thank you my friend. That is true. I know what you are saying.

There are more facts and stories to tell beyond "making domestic friends." (I have very good domestic friends while selecting not to speak with many who just don't want to say a word with you because of your background.) Some of the stories, which some friends say they suspect as discriminative, I do not hope to disclose. What would my friends think if they know I posted it here?

As said, I would say only if the discussion is private and does not go public.

If it's racism, that is terrible. I go to a t20 school that brings in a ton of LLMs every year to try and make up for all the scholarships thrown at JDs. From my understanding, it's not the race or ethnicity differences that create the separation, rather its how the LLM degree is viewed by the JDs, faculty, and school in general. JDs know that taking a class with a lot of LLMs practically guarantees them a top spot on the curve just because of differences in writing ability. Faculty actively try to keep LLMs out of their classes. School administration set policies that try to keep LLMs paying for as long as possible. The truth is that LLMs are treated as a commodity to boost revenue. And I think that mindset trickles down from the administration to the students.

Then there's of course the awful reality that USA jobs for LLMs do not exist. I'm surprised ATL hasn't written anything about the LLM degree, because it really is a scandal to allow so many students to graduate without a usable degree.

SemiReverseSplinter wrote:If it's racism, that is terrible. I go to a t20 school that brings in a ton of LLMs every year to try and make up for all the scholarships thrown at JDs. From my understanding, it's not the race or ethnicity differences that create the separation, rather its how the LLM degree is viewed by the JDs, faculty, and school in general. JDs know that taking a class with a lot of LLMs practically guarantees them a top spot on the curve just because of differences in writing ability. Faculty actively try to keep LLMs out of their classes. School administration set policies that try to keep LLMs paying for as long as possible. The truth is that LLMs are treated as a commodity to boost revenue. And I think that mindset trickles down from the administration to the students.

Then there's of course the awful reality that USA jobs for LLMs do not exist. I'm surprised ATL hasn't written anything about the LLM degree, because it really is a scandal to allow so many students to graduate without a usable degree.

SemiReverseSplinter wrote:If it's racism, that is terrible. I go to a t20 school that brings in a ton of LLMs every year to try and make up for all the scholarships thrown at JDs. From my understanding, it's not the race or ethnicity differences that create the separation, rather its how the LLM degree is viewed by the JDs, faculty, and school in general. JDs know that taking a class with a lot of LLMs practically guarantees them a top spot on the curve just because of differences in writing ability. Faculty actively try to keep LLMs out of their classes. School administration set policies that try to keep LLMs paying for as long as possible. The truth is that LLMs are treated as a commodity to boost revenue. And I think that mindset trickles down from the administration to the students.

Then there's of course the awful reality that USA jobs for LLMs do not exist. I'm surprised ATL hasn't written anything about the LLM degree, because it really is a scandal to allow so many students to graduate without a usable degree.

I agree with pretty much everything you said. LLM programs are cash cows and more or less useless for getting US jobs. An important thing here/for this thread, however, is that the OP is a JD student.*

*This is just a general remark, not directed at you specifically. It seems that most people replying are somehow inferring from the OP's international status that he is an LLM student.

More general rambling b/c I can't sleep: I've met quite a few international students whose written English is significantly better than their spoken English (and no, I am not talking about myself), so I don't necessarily think that the writing ability gap between them and American students is that huge, esp. when you see (for example) what an A exam written by Desert Fox looks like ( ). (I swear there is a thread with one or more his exam answers somewhere. Very solid analysis, IIRC, but kind of atrocious English.) Plus, LLMs usually get more time on exams (unlike non-native speaker JD students, which is fair, IMO). OTOH, I've also met quite a few international students whose English is just not very good, so ultimately idk... I guess we'll never know for sure unless profs start putting up everyone's name + score/grade on a bulletin board (which is what they typically do in Asia/Europe ).

lichtblickz wrote:1. The purpose of this article is to give advice to OTHERS. So others (International Students, African American, Asian, Latino students) would know even without your so-called "smidgen of research."

Your premise is flawed. People will have to search for this thread or this site to find this post. While the info may be slightly different than wikipedia, it certainly is not done without similar research methods.

I understand where you're coming from, OP, having lived and worked in other countries for 7+ years. Your perspective is your reality and others in your situation will likely benefit somewhat from your testimony even if this is likely not the most immediately receptive audience for your posts. Do you think it would be different if you were of a different foreign ethnicity? I know the twin cities has super high populations of some immigrant groups, Hmong for instance. Is it a broader community issue or more of a school specific thing?

Last edited by AJordan on Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

lichtblickz wrote:1. The purpose of this article is to give advice to OTHERS. So others (International Students, African American, Asian, Latino students) would know even without your so-called "smidgen of research."

Your premise is flawed. People will have to search for this thread or this site to find this post. While the info may be slightly different than wikipedia, it certainly is not done without similar research methods.

Pleas tell me how it is flawed. A simple question to you: will wiki tell you how students of different ethnical groups feel?

AJordan wrote:I understand where you're coming from, OP, having lived and worked in other countries for 7+ years. Your perspective is your reality and others in your situation will likely benefit somewhat from your testimony even if this is likely not the most immediately receptive audience for your posts. Do you think it would be different if you were of a different foreign ethnicity? I know the twin cities has super high populations of some immigrant groups, Hmong for instance. Is it a broader community issue or more of a school specific thing?

I have been to Europe and other colleges before. I have also talked with people of different ethnic groups (middle america, asia, africa and students of different ethnic groups from the state, Euro OK - I can list them if you keep confidential and message me), especially from middle east, who have even stronger feeling than me.

I think it is a school-specific thing: 1. As far as I know, other schools are better on this, and the general population in twin cities seems more open to different cultures. 2. it is mainly about the academic environment of the school or law school community.

Last edited by lichtblickz on Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:32 pm, edited 3 times in total.

This thread is becoming a FLAW LSAT question and seems everyone is trying to find the answer. Even so, I am confident about my view because I know many people, from same and different ethnic groups, share the same feeling with me.

I personally have no grudges with any specific student or professor or administrative staff. However, as many people share the same view, why keep it secret?

lichtblickz wrote:1. The purpose of this article is to give advice to OTHERS. So others (International Students, African American, Asian, Latino students) would know even without your so-called "smidgen of research."

Your premise is flawed. People will have to search for this thread or this site to find this post. While the info may be slightly different than wikipedia, it certainly is not done without similar research methods.

Pleas tell me how it is flawed. A simple question to you: will wiki tell you how students of different ethnical groups feel?

I just did, you dunce. Both of your questions are answered in my post if you would actually read the entire point rather than just the first sentence.

lichtblickz wrote:1. The purpose of this article is to give advice to OTHERS. So others (International Students, African American, Asian, Latino students) would know even without your so-called "smidgen of research."

Your premise is flawed. People will have to search for this thread or this site to find this post. While the info may be slightly different than wikipedia, it certainly is not done without similar research methods.

Pleas tell me how it is flawed. A simple question to you: will wiki tell you how students of different ethnical groups feel?

I just did, you dunce. Both of your questions are answered in my post if you would actually read the entire point rather than just the first sentence.