Inside Information, p. 233-4 wrote:'There he lay, a vast red-golden dragon, fast asleep; a thrumming came from his jaws and nostrils, and wisps of smoke, but his fires were low in slumber. Beneath him, under all his limbs and his huge coiled tail, and about him on all sides stretched away across the unseen floors, lay countless piles of precious things, gold wrought and unwrought, gems and jewels, and silver red-stained in the ruddy light.

Smaug lay, with wings folded like an immeasurable bat, turned partly on one side, so that the hobbit could see his underparts and his long pale belly crusted with gems and fragments of gold from his long lying on his costly bed.'

Pretty self-explanatory, the first description of the great dragon and his gem-encrusted belly.

Inside Information, p. 236 wrote:'Thieves! Fire! Murder! Such a thing had not happened since he first came to the Mountain! His rage passes description - the sort of rage that is only seen when rich folk that have more than they can enjoy suddenly lose something that they have long had but have never before used or wanted. His fire belched forth, the hall smoked, he shook the mountain-roots. He thrust his head in vain at the little hole, and then coiling his length together, roaring like thunder underground, he sped from his deep lair through its great door out into the huge passages of the mountain-palace and up towards the Front Gate.

To hunt the whole mountain till he caught the thief and had torn and trampled him was his one thought. He issued from the Gate, the waters rose in fierce whistling steam, and up he soared blazing into the air and settled on the mountain-top in a spout of green and scarlet flame.'

More self-explanatory, Smaug is not someone you would want to make angry.

Inside Information, p. 237 wrote:'They had barely time to fly back to the tunnel, pulling and dragging in their bundles, when Smaug came hurtling from the North, licking the mountain-side with flame, beating his great wings with a noise like a roaring wind. His hot breath shriveled the grass before the door, and drove in through the crack they had left and scorched them as they lay hid. Flickering fires leaped up and black rock-shadows danced. Then darkness fell as he passed again.'

In case you didn't realize yet that his fire is hot

Inside Information, p. 240-1 wrote:"Old Smaug is weary and asleep," he thought. "He can't see me and he won't hear me. Cheer up Bilbo!" He had forgotten or had never heard about dragons' sense of smell. It is also an awkward fact that they can keep half an eye open watching while they sleep, if they are suspicious.

Smaug certainly looked fast asleep, almost dead and dark, with scarcely a snore more than a whiff of unseen steam, when Bilbo peeped once more from the entrance. He was just about to step out on to the floor when he caught a sudden thin and piercing ray of red from under the drooping lid of Smaug’s left eye. He was only pretending to sleep!'

Creeping up on a dragon asleep, or trying to hide from one, would be a difficult task it seems.

Inside Information, p. 243 wrote:'Bilbo was now beginning to feel really uncomfortable. Whenever Smaug's roving eye, seeking for him in the shadows, flashed across him, he trembled, and an unaccountable desire seized hold of him to rush out and reveal himself and tell all the truth to Smaug. In fact he was in grievous danger of coming under the dragon-spell.'

Much of a dragon's magic stems from their eyes, both in this example and from several involving Glaurung, and is seen dangerously effective even against a race as magic-resistant as Hobbits. For an unwary adversary, Smaug could probably just look 'em in the eye and tell them to kill themselves, if not worst.

Inside Information, p. 244 wrote:'Now a nasty suspicious began to grow in his mind - had the dwarves forgotten this important point too, or were they laughing in their sleeves at him all the time? That was the effect that dragon-talk has on the inexperienced. Bilbo of course ought to have been on his guard; but Smaug had rather an overwhelming personality.'

Trying to talk to a dragon is, obviously, not a good idea Whether this ‘dragon-talk’ is magical in nature is questionable.

Inside Information, p. 245 wrote:"Revenge!" he snorted, and the light of his eyes lit the hall from floor to ceiling like scarlet lightning. "Revenge! The King under the Mountain is dead and where are his kin that dare seek revenge? Girion Lord of Dale is dead, and I have eaten his people like a wolf among sheep, and where are his sons' sons that dare approach me? I kill where I wish and none dare resist. I laid low the warriors of old and their like is not in the world today. Then I was but young and tender. Now I am old and strong, strong, strong, Thief in the Shadows!" he gloated. "My armour is like tenfold shields, my teeth are swords, my claws spears, the shock of my tail a thunderbolt, my wings a hurricane, and my breath death!"

The text hints at several things besides the "my armour is..." passage. One, the light from his eyes can obviously get bright enough to illuminate a large hall. Two, laying low the "warriors of old" would indicated he's fought against Elves and Edain, perhaps even fought in the War of Wrath versus the Host of the Valar, which makes him very old. Three, advanced age actually makes a dragon stronger rather then weaker, so one can imagine how powerful Ancalagon would be had he lived for a few thousand years...

Inside Information, p. 245-6 wrote:"I have always understood," said Bilbo in a frightened squeak, "that dragons were softer underneath, especially in the region of the - er - chest; but doubtless one so fortified has thought of that."

The dragon stopped short in his boasting. "Your information is antiquated," he snapped. "I am armoured above and below with iron scales and hard gems. No blade can pierce me."

"I might have guessed it," said Bilbo. "Truly there can nowhere be found the equal of Lord Smaug the Impenetrable. What magnificence to posses a waistcoat of fine diamonds!"

"Yes, it is rare and wonderful, indeed," said Smaug absurdly pleased. He did not know that the hobbit had already caught a glimpse of his peculiar under-covering on his previous visit, and was itching for a closer view for reasons of his own. The dragon rolled over. "Look!" he said. "What do you say to that?"

"Dazzlingly marvelous! Perfect! Flawless! Staggering!" exclaimed Bilbo aloud, but what he thought inside was: "Old fool! Why, there is a large patch in the hallow of his left breast as bare as a snail out of its shell!"

Classical dragon weakness, and Smaug's answer to with his diamonds and other gems. Though it would be interesting to know for sure which one is harder then which – dragon scales or gems?

Inside Information, p. 246 wrote:'It was an unfortunate remark, for the dragon spouted terrific flames after him, and fast though he sped up the slop, he had not gone nearly far enough to be comfortable before the ghastly head of Smaug was thrust against the opening behind. Luckily the whole head and jaws could not squeeze in, but the nostrils sent forth fire and vapour to pursue him, and he was nearly overcome, and stumbled blindly on in great pain and fear.'

Can shoot fire not just through the mouth but the nose as well.

Inside Information, p. 252 wrote:'And not a moment too soon. They had hardly gone any distance down the tunnel when a blow smote the side of the Mountain like the crash of battering-rams made of forest oaks and swung by giants. The rock boomed, the walls cracked and stones fell from the roof on their heads. What would have happened if the door had still been open I don't like to think. They fled further down the tunnel glad to be still alive, while behind them outside they heard the roar and rumble of Smaug's fury. He was breaking rocks to pieces, smashing wall and cliff with the lashings of his huge tail, till their little lofty camping ground, the scorched grass, the thrush’s stone, the snail-covered walls, the narrow ledge, and all disappeared in a jumble of smithereens, and an avalanche of splintered stones fell over the cliff into the valley below.'

Smaug's tail is quite powerful and tough to be able to smash apart solid rock; imagine what he could do to a normal castle.

Fire and Water, p. 268 wrote:'Amid shrieks and wailing and the shouts of men he came over them, swept towards the bridges and was foiled! The bridge was gone, and his enemies were on an island in deep water - too deep and dark and cool for his liking. If he plunged into it, a vapour and a steam would arise enough to cover all the land with a mist for days; but the lake was mightier than he, it would quench him before he could pass through.'

Another weakness of Smaug and, probably, other fire-breathing dragons. Also interesting that he tried to assault Lake-town from the ground at first; even with his armoured belly, better to 'play it safe' perhaps? What follows is expected: Smaug flies around, burning Lake-town while arrows uselessly bounce off his belly until:

Fire and Water, p. 269-71 wrote:'But there were still a company of archers that held their ground among the burning houses. Their captain was Bard, grim-voiced and grim-faced, whose friends had accused him of prophesying floods and poisoned fish, though they knew his worth and courage. He was a descendant in long line of Girion, Lord of Dale, whose wife and child had escaped down the Running River from the ruin long ago. Now he shot with a great yew bow, till all his arrows but one were spend. The flames were near him. His companions were leaving him. He bent his bow for the last time.

Suddenly out of the dark something fluttered to his shoulder. He started - but it was only an old thrush. Unafraid it perched by his ear and it brought him news. Marveling he found he could understand its tongue, for he was of the race of Dale.

"Wait! Wait!" it said to him. "The moon is rising. Look for the hallow of the left breast as he flies and turns above you!" And while Bard paused in wonder it told him of tidings up the Mountain and of all that it had heard.
Then Bard drew his bow-string to his ear. The dragon was circling back, flying low, and as he came the moon rose above the eastern shore and silvered his great wings.

"Arrow!" said the bowman. "Black arrow! I have saved you to the last. You have never failed me and always I have recovered you. I had you from my father and he from of old. If ever you came from the forges of the true king under the Mountain, go now and speed well!"

The dragon swooped once more lower than ever, and as he turned and dived down his belly glittered white with sparkling fires of gems in the moon - but not in one place. The great bow twanged. The black arrow sped straight from the string, straight for the hallow by the left breast where the foreleg was flung wide. In it smote and vanished, barb, shaft and feather, so fierce was its flight. With a shriek that deafened men, felled trees and split stone, Smaug shot spouting into the air, turned over and crashed down from on high in ruin.

Full on the town he fell. His last throes splintered it to sparks and gledes. The lake roared in. A vast steam leaped up, white in the sudden dark under the moon. There was a hiss, a gushing whirl, and then silence. And that was the end of Smaug and Esgaroth, but not of Bard.'

The Death of Smaug. Call it Fate, or Destiny, or Deus Ex Machina, but Bard's Black arrow would seem to be magical, given its supposed Dwarven origins, its unnerving accuracy, and by the very force it drove itself into Smaug, "smote and vanished, barb, shaft and feather, so fierce was its flight". Also Smaug has quite the voice if it can truly split stone.

Last edited by Balrog on 2008-10-17 02:08pm, edited 21 times in total.

'Ai! ai!' wailed Legolas. 'A Balrog! A Balrog is come!'
Gimli stared with wide eyes. 'Durin's Bane!' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face.
'A Balrog,' muttered Gandalf. 'Now I understand.' He faltered and leaned heavily on his staff. 'What an evil fortune! And I am already weary.'
- J.R.R Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring

Bilbo of course ought to have been on his guard; but Smaug had rather an overwhelming personality.'

Trying to talk to a dragon is, obviously, not a good idea Whether this ‘dragon-talk’ is magical in nature is questionable.

I'd say that the context shows it as the product of the sheer "Krisma" of the dragons personality.
I.E Dragons are charismatic in a way that simply overpowers normal people (Rather like many human leaders but apparently the effect is even more noticeable and potent).
I think that Saruman must have taken some elocution lessons from a Dragon (Yes, I know that this is impossible due to a variety of reasons).

Outstanding work, this will be very useful for me (I love dragons , The Hobbit is one of if not The first "Real book" I ever read ) and your dedication to supplying analyzations of Tolkien's work is as always superb .

PhotographyGenius is always allowed some leeway, once the hammer has been pried from its hands and the blood has been cleaned up.
To improve is to change; to be perfect is to change often.

Balrog wrote:Trying to talk to a dragon is, obviously, not a good idea Whether this ‘dragon-talk’ is magical in nature is questionable.

Think about what Glaurung did to Turin Turambar. It's well-known that hobbits are psychologically tougher than humans (e.g., Frodo and the Ring vs Boromir), but I don't doubt that, given a dragon's ability to psychologically overwhelm, Bilbo was lucky Smaug didn't ... well, overwhelm him. Perhaps it requires eye-contact, which didn't occur, since Bilbo was wearing the Ring?

Balrog wrote:Trying to talk to a dragon is, obviously, not a good idea Whether this ‘dragon-talk’ is magical in nature is questionable.

Think about what Glaurung did to Turin Turambar. It's well-known that hobbits are psychologically tougher than humans (e.g., Frodo and the Ring vs Boromir), but I don't doubt that, given a dragon's ability to psychologically overwhelm, Bilbo was lucky Smaug didn't ... well, overwhelm him. Perhaps it requires eye-contact, which didn't occur, since Bilbo was wearing the Ring?

Yes, Bilbo was wearing the Ring while talking to Smaug, which is why Smaug could never actually see the Hobbit. What happened to Turin could also simply be Glaurung's personality (will try and get some info of him on here soon), or they both could be examples of magic; either way, a dragon's voice is still very deadly.

Besides smell, something I forgot to post was another of his senses: when Smaug ate the party's Lake-town ponies, he could tell that Dwarves had been riding them by taste alone.

'Ai! ai!' wailed Legolas. 'A Balrog! A Balrog is come!'
Gimli stared with wide eyes. 'Durin's Bane!' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face.
'A Balrog,' muttered Gandalf. 'Now I understand.' He faltered and leaned heavily on his staff. 'What an evil fortune! And I am already weary.'
- J.R.R Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring

Could the ring have protected Frodo from Smaug just by it's very nature and not because it was keeping Frodo invisible? It does tend to dominate the personalities of it's bearers eventually so it could have added protection to Frodo's mind. It also wouldn't have been in the ring's best intertest to become a part of a dragon's horde. How many more centuries would it have remained lost then?

I can't imagine it would have been any better if Smaug knowingly possesed the ring. He was already very possessive about his hoard now add the ring paranoia onto that (assuming the ring would work on him) and things could be pretty bad.

I would also have hated to be the one who told Sauron that the location of the ring is known but unfortunately it's inside of Smaug because he ate the last ring bearer while the ring was on his person. Supposedly dragon fire isn't enough to destroy the ring but who knows what long term exposure to the insides of a dragon will do to it.

The ring being inside Smaug wouldn't exactly be good news for everyone else either since they really only defeated Sauron's forces because of the destruction of the ring.

I'm currious about how tough the underside of a normal dragon is. The Hobbit sort of implies a couple of different things. It almost seems like dragons are relatively soft in the chest region but then it also makes it out that Smaug was killed by a magic arrow and even that had to hit Smaug in a non jewel encrusted spot. I'm speculating that without his extra armor Smaug would still have done okay against regular arrows. At the very least, given his size, it would take a shit load of arrows to do enough damage to even serious injure him in time to save the people firing the arrows.

Is it possible that the real vulnerability of a dragon's chest had to do more with the amount of armored scales and how they did or didn't overlap, especially when a dragon is flying? I keep thinking of the movie Dragonheart where Draco lifted up some of his chest scales like a flap so he could be killed. If the chest scales are like those, somewhat free hanging, then relatively bare gaps could be exposed when a dragon is flying or rearing up. Still not exactly unarmored but a better target than the rest of the dragon.

That Smaug first attempts to attack the lake town by ground makes it seem like he's still concerned about exposing his underside even with the jewels but it could be a personal preference of sorts or maybe he's just tired of flying at that point.

Personally when/if Peter Jackson actually does a Hobbit movie I really hope they go to town on Smaug.

By the pricking of my thumbs,
Something wicked this way comes.
Open, locks,
Whoever knocks.

Tsyroc wrote:Could the ring have protected Frodo from Smaug just by it's very nature and not because it was keeping Frodo invisible? It does tend to dominate the personalities of it's bearers eventually so it could have added protection to Frodo's mind. It also wouldn't have been in the ring's best intertest to become a part of a dragon's horde. How many more centuries would it have remained lost then?

Wrong Hobbit
I have doubts that the Ring played that big a role in the Smaug confrontation

I'm currious about how tough the underside of a normal dragon is. The Hobbit sort of implies a couple of different things. It almost seems like dragons are relatively soft in the chest region but then it also makes it out that Smaug was killed by a magic arrow and even that had to hit Smaug in a non jewel encrusted spot. I'm speculating that without his extra armor Smaug would still have done okay against regular arrows. At the very least, given his size, it would take a shit load of arrows to do enough damage to even serious injure him in time to save the people firing the arrows.

Given the location of where it hit him, the arrow probably pierced his heart, which is probably why he died to it so quickly. A lesser arrow vs. an unarmored belly probably wouldn't have caused an insta-kill in the same way, what with his size and stature. As to the gems vs. dragon scales, can't say for sure

Is it possible that the real vulnerability of a dragon's chest had to do more with the amount of armored scales and how they did or didn't overlap, especially when a dragon is flying?

Maybe, information on that is slim, though I've always thought about it as just being "normal" reptilian skin, though tougher, then the Dragonheart scales.

'Ai! ai!' wailed Legolas. 'A Balrog! A Balrog is come!'
Gimli stared with wide eyes. 'Durin's Bane!' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face.
'A Balrog,' muttered Gandalf. 'Now I understand.' He faltered and leaned heavily on his staff. 'What an evil fortune! And I am already weary.'
- J.R.R Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring

I have my doubts about the Ring affecting the confrontation that much; Bilbo hadn't had the Ring all that long, and it isn't described as taking any part in it besides the invisibility (though of course when Tolkien wrote it he had no idea that this ring would be the Ring)

'Ai! ai!' wailed Legolas. 'A Balrog! A Balrog is come!'
Gimli stared with wide eyes. 'Durin's Bane!' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face.
'A Balrog,' muttered Gandalf. 'Now I understand.' He faltered and leaned heavily on his staff. 'What an evil fortune! And I am already weary.'
- J.R.R Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring

Well, to mess with Bilbo's mind, I presume that Smaug would at least need to see him in order to focus his efforts on him. I can't recall anything about dragons having particularly exceptional hearing, but I might be wrong on that count. n\

And mind you, Gandalf indicates in LotR that hobbits are particularly hardy (Gandalf talking about Frodo's resistance to the Morgul blade, I believe), which would also extend to mental strenght, methinks.

Of Aulë and Yavanna wrote:‘“O Kementári, Eru hath spoken, saying: “Do then any of the Valar suppose that I did not hear all the Song, even the least sound of the least voice? Behold! When the Children awaken, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared. For a time: while the Firstborn are in their power, and while the Secondborn are young.” ... But in the forests shall walk the Shepherds of the Trees.”

Then Manwë and Yavanna parted for that time, and Yavanna returned to Aulë; and he was in his smithy, pouring molten metal into a mould. “Eru is bountiful,” she said. “Now let thy children beware! For there shall walk a power in the forests whose wrath they will arouse at their peril.”

“Nonetheless they will have need of wood,” said Aulë, and he went on with his smith-work.’

The origin of the Ents. The last bit I find particularly funny, since Yavanna had be fretting about Aulë's dwarves chopping down her trees.

Treebeard wrote:‘A large knob-knuckled hand was laid on each of their shoulders, and they were twisted round, gently but irresistibly; then two great arms lifted them up.

They found that they were looking at a most extraordinary face. It belonged to a large Man-like, almost Troll-like, figure, at least fourteen foot high, very sturdy, with a tall head, and hardly any neck. Whether it was clad in stuff like green and grey bark, or whether that was its hide, was difficult to say. At any rate the arms, at a short distance from the trunk, were not wrinkled, but covered with a brown smooth skin. The large feet had seven toes each. The lower part of the long face was covered with a sweeping grey beard, bushy, almost twiggy at the roots, thin and mossy at the ends. But at the moment the hobbits noticed little but the eyes. These deep eyes were now surveying them, slowly and solemn, but very penetrating. They were brown, shot with a green light. Often afterwards Pippin tried to describe his first impression of them.’

First description of an Ent, namely Treebeard, and the general characteristics of an Ent, though we'll find out they're not all the same.

Treebeard wrote:“For I am not going to tell you my name, not yet at any rate…For one thing it would take a long while: my name is growing all the time, and I’ve lived a very long, long time; so my name is like a story. Real names tell you the story of things they belong to in my language, in the Old Entish as you might say. It is a lovely language, but it takes a very long time to say anything in it, because we do not say anything in it, unless it is worth taking a long time to say it, and to listen to.”

Old Entish - for when you want to bore your audience to death

Treebeard wrote:“I do not understand all that goes on myself, so I cannot explain it to you. Some of us are still true Ents, and lively enough in our fashion, but many are growing sleepy, growing tree-ish, as you might say. Most of the trees are just trees, of course; but many are half awake. Some are quite wide awake, and a few are, well, ah, well getting Entish. That is going on all the time.”
…
We are tree-herds, we old Ents. Few enough of us are left now. Sheep get like shepherd, and shepherds like sheep, it is said; but slowly, and neither have long in the world. It is quicker and closer with trees and Ents, and they walk down the ages together. For Ents are more like Elves: less interested in themselves than Men are, and better at getting inside other things. And yet again Ents are more like Men, more changeable than Elves are, and quicker at taking the colour of the outside, you might say. Or better than both: for they are steadier and keep their minds on things longer.”

The nature of Ents and trees in Middle-Earth; one wonders what a bunch of trees would talk about all day...

Treebeard wrote:‘Treebeard lifted two great vessels and stood them on the table. They seemed to be filled with water; but he held his hands over them, and immediately they began to glow, one with a golden and the other a rich green light; and the blending of the two lights lit the bay, as if the sun of summer was shining through a roof of young leaves.’

Treebeard using magic? Or just the nature of things in Fangorn forest, like Ent-draught that makes you grow?

Treebeard wrote:“The trouble is that there are so few of us left,” he said turning towards the hobbits. “Only three remain of the first Ents that walked in the woods before the Darkness: only myself, Fangorn, and Finglas and Fladrif…”

“Why are there so few, when you have lived in this country so long?” asked Pippin. “Have a great many died?”

“Oh, no!” said Treebeard. “None have died from inside, as you might say. Some have fallen in the evil chances of the long years, of course; and more have grown tree-ish. But there were never many of us and we have not increased. There have been no Entings – no children, you would say, not for a terrible long count of years. You see, we lost the Entwives.”

“How very sad!” said Pippin. “How was it that they all died?”

“They did not die!” said Treebeard. “I never said died. We lost them, I said. We lost them and we cannot find them.”

Ents must be immortal if someone like Treebeard can remember a time before Morgoth came; that puts him around the same age as Galadriel, probably older. Plus, why there are no new Ents playing about these days.

Treebeard wrote:‘Several Ents had already arrived. More were coming in down the other paths, and some were now following Treebeard. As they drew near the hobbits gazed at them. They had expected to see a number of creatures as much like Treebeard as one hobbit is like another (at any rate to a stranger’s eye); and they were very much surprised to see nothing of the kind. The Ents were as different from one another as trees from trees: some as different as one tree is from another of the same name but quite different growth and history; and some as different as one tree-kind from another, as birch from beech, oak from fir. There were a few older Ents, bearded and gnarled like hale but ancient trees (though none looked as ancient as Treebeard); and there were tall strong Ents, clean-limbed and smooth-skinned like forest-trees in their prime; but there were no young Ents, no saplings. Altogether there were about two dozen standing on the wide grassy floor of the dingle, and as many more were marching in.

At first Merry and Pippin were struck chiefly by the variety that they saw: the many shapes, and colours, the differences in girth, and height, and length of leg and arm; and in the number of toes and fingers (anything from three to nine). A few seemed more or less related to Treebeard, and reminded them of beech-trees or oaks. But there were other kinds. Some recalled the chestnut: brown-skinned Ents with large splayfingered hands, and short thick legs. Some recalled the ash: tall straight grey Ents with many-fingered hands and long legs; some the fir (the tallest Ents), and others the birch, the rowan, and the linden. But when the Ents all gathered round Treebeard, bowing their heads slightly, murmuring in their slow musical voices, and looking long and intently at the strangers, then the hobbits saw that they were all of the same kindred, and all had the same eyes: not all so old or so deep as Treebeard’s, but all the same slow, steady, thoughtful expression, and the same green flicker.’

Very descriptive text on Ents. Availible in all shapes and sizes for a limited time only Though I was hoping for a mention of willow Ents, I always liked how they looked in the movie.

Treebeard wrote:‘Bregalad stood for some time surveying the hobbits solemnly, and they looked at him, wondering when he would show any signs of ‘hastiness’. He was tall, and seemed to be one of the younger Ents; he had smooth shining skin on his arms and legs; his lips were ruddy, and his hair was grey-green. He could bend and sway like a slender tree in the wind. At last he spoke, and his voice though resonant was higher and clearer than Treebeard’s.

“Ha, hmm, my friends, let us go for a walk!” he said. “I am Bregalad, that is Quickbeam in your language. But it is only a nickname, of course. They have called me that ever since I said yes to an elder Ent before he had finished his question. Also I drink quickly, and go out while some are still wetting their beards. Come with me!”

The closet you'll ever get to meeting a 'hasty' Ent; no wonder they turn into trees.

Treebeard wrote:‘Before long they saw the marching line approaching: the Ents were swinging along with great strides down the slope towards them. Treebeard was at their head, and some fifty followers were behind him, two abreast, keeping step with their feet and beating time with their hands upon their flanks. As they drew near the flash and flicker of their eyes could be seen.

“Hoom, hom! Here we come with a boom, here we come at last!” called Treebeard when he caught sight of Bregalad and the hobbits. “Come, join the Moot! We are off. We are off to Isengard!”

Not a lot of Ents, but then again there's always the hundreds of angry Huorns to contend with (more on them later).

“Ho, hm, well, we could, you know! You do not know, perhaps, how strong we are. Maybe you have heard of Trolls? They are mighty strong. But Trolls are only counterfeits, made by the Enemy in the Great Darkness, in mockery of Ents, as Orcs were of Elves. We are stronger than Trolls. We are made of the bones of the earth. We can split stone like the roots of trees, only quicker, far quicker, if our minds our roused! If we are not hewn down, or destroyed by fire or blast of sorcery, we could split Isengard into splinters and crack its walls into rubble.”

Pretty self-explanitory, definitive comparison against Trolls (which are pretty damn strong in their own right).

Flotsam and Jetsam wrote: “But arrows are no use against Ents. They hurt them, of course, and infuriate them: like stinging flies. But an Ent can be stuck as full of orc-arrows as a pin-cushion, and take no serious harm. They cannot be poisoned, for one thing; and their skin seems to be very thick, and tougher then bark. It takes a very heavy axe-stroke to wound them seriously. They don’t like axes. But there would have to be a great many axe-men to one Ent: a man that hacks once at an Ent never gets a chance of a second blow. A punch from an Ent-fist crumples up iron like thin tin.

When Treebeard had got a few arrows in him, he began to warm up, to get positively ‘hasty’, as he would say. He let out a great hoom-hom, and a dozen more Ents came striding up. An angry Ent is terrifying. Their fingers, and their toes, just freeze on to rock; and they tear it up like bread-crust. It was like watching the work of great tree-roots in a hundred years, all packed into a few moments.”

Tough to kill, incredibly strong, and immune to poison; you do not want to get on an Ent's angry side. Being unaffected by poison probably means they just don't have a circulatory system like most living creatures.

Flotsame and Jetsame wrote:“They roared and boomed and trumpeted, until stones began to crack and fall at the mere noise of them. Merry and I lay on the ground and stuffed our cloaks into our ears. Round and round the rock of Orthanc the Ents went striding and storming like a howling gale, breaking pillars, hurling avalanches of boulders down the shafts, tossing up huge slabs of stone into the air like leaves. The tower was in the middle of a spinning whirlwind. I saw iron posts and blocks of masonry go rocketing up hundreds of feet, and smash against the windows of Orthanc.”

Again more impressive feats of strength, throwing stones hundreds of feet in the air suggests as much.

Your Middle Earth threads are usually very good reference material and I'd say that this one can be one of the best. Now to make some actual contribution, I'll point that you might want to add to the Ent list that when they stay still they are extremely hard to identify from a distance, even for elves.

Do you intend to include things from the Unfinished Tales, Lost Tales and other less known of Tolkien's works, btw?

Murazor wrote:Do you intend to include things from the Unfinished Tales, Lost Tales and other less known of Tolkien's works, btw?

Opps, didn't see this, sorry but yeah, any info from any of Tolkien's works will do.

Anyways, short little update:

Beorn

Queer Lodgings, p. 127-8 wrote:"If you must know more, his name is Beorn. He is very strong, and he is a skin-changer."

"What! A furrier, a man that calls rabbits conies, when he doesn't turn their skins into squirrels?" asked Bilbo.

"Good gracious heaves, no, no, No, NO!" said Gandalf. "Don't be a fool Mr. Baggins if you can help it; and in the name of all wonder don't mention the word furrier again as long as you are within a hundred miles of his house, nor rug, cape, tippet, muff, nor any other such unfortunate word! He is a skin-changer. He changes his skin: sometimes he is a huge black bear, sometimes he is a great strong black-haired man with huge arms and a great beard. I cannot tell you much more, though that ought to be enough. Some say that he is a bear descended from the great and ancient bears of the mountains that lived there before the giants came. Others say that he is a man descended from the first men who lived before Smaug or the other dragons came into this part of the world, and before the goblins came into the hills out of the North. I cannot say, though I fancy the last is the true tale. He is not the sort of person to ask questions of.

"At any rate he is under no enchantment but his own. He lives in an oak-wood and has a great wooden house; and as a man he keeps cattle and horses which are nearly as marvelous as himself. They work for him and talk to him. He does not eat them; neither does he hunt or eat wild animals. He keeps hives and hives of great fierce bees, and lives most on cream and honey. As a bear he ranges far and wide."

First description of Beorn, his supposed origin and his powers. Pretty self-explanitory.

Queer Lodgings, p. 130 wrote:'Soon they reached a courtyard, three walls of which were formed by the wooden house and its two long wings. In the middle there was lying a great oak-trunk with many lopped branches beside it. Standing near was a huge man with a thick black beard and hair, and great bare arms and legs with knotted muscles. He was clothed in a tunic of wool down to his knees, and was leaning on a large axe. The horses were standing by him with their noses at his shoulder.

"Ugh! here they are!" he said to the horses. "They don't look dangerous. You can be off!" He laughed a great rolling laugh, put down his axe and came forward.

"Who are you and what do you want?" he asked gruffly, standing in front of them and towering above Gandalf. As for Bilbo he could easily have trotted through his legs without ducking his head to miss the fringe of the man’s brown tunic.'

Beorn's size had been discussed here earlier, and as pointed out there's two different heights for Beorn (horses' noses at his shoulder vs. Bilbo walking under his tunic). Since Beorn can apparently change the size of his bear form, perhaps he can also change his size while as a man too.

The Return Journey, p. 313-4 wrote:'But even with the Eagles they were still outnumbered. In that last hour Beorn himself had appeared - no one knew how or from where. He came alone, and in bear's shape' and he seemed to have grown almost to giant-size in his wrath.

The roar of his voice was like drums and guns; and he tossed wolves and goblins from his path like straws and feathers. He fell upon their rear, and broke like a clap of thunder through the ring. The dwarves were making a stand still about their lords upon a low rounded hill. Then Beorn stooped and lifted Thorin, who had fallen pierced with spears, and bore him out of the fray.

Swiftly he returned and his wrath was redoubled, so that nothing could withstand him, and no weapons seemed to bite upon him. He scattered the bodyguard, and pulled down Bolg himself and crushed him. Then dismay fell on the Goblins and they fled in all directions.'

When the movie version of The Hobbit comes out (and it will), this scene better be given proper justice

The Return Journey, p. 318 wrote:'Yule-tide was warm and merry there; and men came from far and wide to feast at Beorn’s bidding. The goblins of the Misty Mountains were now few and terrified, and hidden in the deepest holes they could find; and the Wargs had vanished from the woods, so that men went abroad without fear. Beorn indeed became a great chief afterwards in those regions and ruled a wide land between the mountains and the wood; and it is aid that for many generations the men of his line had the power of taking bear's shape, and some were grim and bad, but most were in heart like Beorn, if less in size and strength.'

Beorn's powers are apparently genetic, though, as is common with the theme of the Third Age, is weakening.

The Black Gate Opens, p. 870 wrote:'At its head there rode a tall and evil shape, mounted upon a black horse, if horse it was; for it was huge and hideous, and its face was a frightful mask, more like a skull then a living head, and in the socket of its eyes and in its nostrils there burned a flame. The rider was robed all in black, and black was its lofty helm; yet this was no Ringwraith but a living man. The Lieutenant of the Tower of Barad-dûr he was, and his name is remembered in noe tale; for he himself had forgotten it, and he said: "I am the Mouth of Sauron." But it is told that he was a renegade, who came of the race of those that are named Black Númenóreans; for they established their dwellings in Middle-Earth during the years of Sauron's domination, and they worshipped him, being enamoured of evil knowledge. And he entered the service of the Dark Tower when it first rose again, and because of his cunning he grew ever higher in the Lord's favor; and he learned great sorcery, and knew much of the mind of Sauron; and he was more cruel than any orc.'

Though it is the only descriptive paragraph about the MoS, it is fruitful in various details. First is that the MoS is old; efforts to rebuild Barad-dûr began in 2951, and assuming he started working for Sauron that year he's been on the job for nearly a century (~78 years), and didn't show any signs of advanced aging. Either his Númenórean background or some dark art of Sauron has kept him fit. Second is that "magic" in LotR, at least the evil variety, is not just limited to divine beings and such; it can be taught to the likes of Men and such. To what exact extent the Mouth can use sorcery - whether he could, for example, create phantoms or command the dead like Sauron or WK can - can only be guessed at. Being the Lieutenant of the Dark Tower would put the Mouth in a very high position, probably just below the Nazgûl themselves, and that he was suppose to take over Isengard should Mordor have won would have set him up in his own little kingdom to rule.

The passage also offers hints about other Sauron-related areas: he rewards those who exhibit his own personality type (cruelty, cleverness) with command positions and some of his teachings; the variety of beasts in his service include, for lack of a better word, 'devil horses' (last I checked horses don't snort fire from their nostrils); and that, presumably, there are other Black Númenóreans in his employ

Balrog wrote:Though it is the only descriptive paragraph about the MoS, it is fruitful in various details. First is that the MoS is old; efforts to rebuild Barad-dûr began in 2951, and assuming he started working for Sauron that year he's been on the job for nearly a century (~78 years), and didn't show any signs of advanced aging.

There is some speculation that Sauron may have given him one of the Rings of Power recovered from the dwarves, which would explain how he aged so well. Given enough time and the recovery of the One Ring, this man might have become a tenth Nazgul.

"This is supposed to be a happy occasion... Let's not bicker and argue about who killed who."
-- The King of Swamp Castle, Monty Python and the Holy Grail

"Nothing of consequence happened today. " -- Diary of King George III, July 4, 1776

"This is not bad; this is a conspiracy to remove happiness from existence. It seeks to wrap its hedgehog hand around the still beating heart of the personification of good and squeeze until it is stilled."
-- Chuck Sonnenburg on Voyager's "Elogium"

Being the Lieutenant of the Dark Tower would put the Mouth in a very high position, probably just below the Nazgûl themselves, and that he was suppose to take over Isengard should Mordor have won would have set him up in his own little kingdom to rule.

Not that I doubt this is true, but where'd you find that?

Stuart: The only problem is, I'm losing track of which universe I'm in.
You kinda look like Jesus. With a lightsaber.- Peregrin Toker

Being the Lieutenant of the Dark Tower would put the Mouth in a very high position, probably just below the Nazgûl themselves, and that he was suppose to take over Isengard should Mordor have won would have set him up in his own little kingdom to rule.

Not that I doubt this is true, but where'd you find that?

Good point. What was Saruman supposed to get, if not Isengard (assuming he wasn't smote for being a traitor)?

"This is supposed to be a happy occasion... Let's not bicker and argue about who killed who."
-- The King of Swamp Castle, Monty Python and the Holy Grail

"Nothing of consequence happened today. " -- Diary of King George III, July 4, 1776

"This is not bad; this is a conspiracy to remove happiness from existence. It seeks to wrap its hedgehog hand around the still beating heart of the personification of good and squeeze until it is stilled."
-- Chuck Sonnenburg on Voyager's "Elogium"

Being the Lieutenant of the Dark Tower would put the Mouth in a very high position, probably just below the Nazgûl themselves, and that he was suppose to take over Isengard should Mordor have won would have set him up in his own little kingdom to rule.

Not that I doubt this is true, but where'd you find that?

Good point. What was Saruman supposed to get, if not Isengard (assuming he wasn't smote for being a traitor)?

He was, and it comes up in the conversation between MoS and the Captains of the West, how the Mouth talks about Isengard getting a new commander and them figuring it was him. If I could I'd edit that passage in when I have my books back.

'Ai! ai!' wailed Legolas. 'A Balrog! A Balrog is come!'
Gimli stared with wide eyes. 'Durin's Bane!' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face.
'A Balrog,' muttered Gandalf. 'Now I understand.' He faltered and leaned heavily on his staff. 'What an evil fortune! And I am already weary.'
- J.R.R Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring

There's also been speculation that the Mouth of Sauron may have been in the service of Sauron since the "rebuilding" of the Dark Tower after the Fall of Numenor, having prolonged his life by some unnatural means. I think the reason for this is the idea of the Lieutenant having forgotten his own true name making little sense if he's less than a hundred or so. In HoME, he was apparently earlier a 'renegade of Gondor' and before that, "captured as a youth became a servant of the dark tower" which was presumably excised in favour of his deciding to become a servant of Sauron on his own to avoid making him seem empathetic.

Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth

Since I enjoy these so much, I figure I'd give you a hand with that passage you wanted.

The Black Gate Opens wrote:
'These are the terms,' said the Messenger, and smiled as he eyed them one by one. 'The rabble of Gondor and its deluded allies shall withdraw at once beyond the Anduin, first taking oaths never again to assail Sauron the Great in arms, open or secret. All lands east of the Anduin shall be Sauron's forver, solely. West of the Anduin as far as the Misty Mountains and the Gap of Rohan shall be tributary to Mordor, and men there shall bear no weapons, but shall have leave to govern their own affairs. But they shall help rebuild Isengard which they have wantonly destroyed, and that shall be Sauron's, and there his lieutenant shall dwell: not Saruman, but one more worthy of trust.'

Looking into the Messengers eyes they read his thought. He was to be that lieutenant, and gather all that remian of the West under his sway; he would be their tyrant and they his slaves.

It should also be noted that the Mouth uses Saurons name, something which is supposed to be (inconsistently) forbidden to servants of Mordor. (most say "Lugburz" or speak vaguely of "The Black Tower")

NecronLord wrote:There's also been speculation that the Mouth of Sauron may have been in the service of Sauron since the "rebuilding" of the Dark Tower after the Fall of Numenor, having prolonged his life by some unnatural means. I think the reason for this is the idea of the Lieutenant having forgotten his own true name making little sense if he's less than a hundred or so.

Perhaps; I always supposed he forgot his name because all the sick and twisted things he's done in Sauron's name would have some negative impact on the man's psyche, but if he was given one of the Dwarven rings that'd work too. And thanks Vaporous, wish I'd checked this thread first before going off to find that quote myself

'Ai! ai!' wailed Legolas. 'A Balrog! A Balrog is come!'
Gimli stared with wide eyes. 'Durin's Bane!' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face.
'A Balrog,' muttered Gandalf. 'Now I understand.' He faltered and leaned heavily on his staff. 'What an evil fortune! And I am already weary.'
- J.R.R Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring

Vaporous wrote:It should also be noted that the Mouth uses Saurons name, something which is supposed to be (inconsistently) forbidden to servants of Mordor. (most say "Lugburz" or speak vaguely of "The Black Tower")

One explanation is that it was previously forbidden, but no more, somewhere in the chronology, IIRC, Sauron starts to 'declare himself openly.' Another idea that's been proposed is that it's just for ordinary plebes, and that the Mouth is important enough to get away with it.

Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth

Vaporous wrote:It should also be noted that the Mouth uses Saurons name, something which is supposed to be (inconsistently) forbidden to servants of Mordor. (most say "Lugburz" or speak vaguely of "The Black Tower")

One explanation is that it was previously forbidden, but no more, somewhere in the chronology, IIRC, Sauron starts to 'declare himself openly.' Another idea that's been proposed is that it's just for ordinary plebes, and that the Mouth is important enough to get away with it.

Or perhaps the "lower" servants of Mordor aren't worthy of speaking Sauron's name, or are afraid to for fear of attracting his attention.

Stuart: The only problem is, I'm losing track of which universe I'm in.
You kinda look like Jesus. With a lightsaber.- Peregrin Toker

Vaporous wrote:It should also be noted that the Mouth uses Saurons name, something which is supposed to be (inconsistently) forbidden to servants of Mordor. (most say "Lugburz" or speak vaguely of "The Black Tower")

One explanation is that it was previously forbidden, but no more, somewhere in the chronology, IIRC, Sauron starts to 'declare himself openly.' Another idea that's been proposed is that it's just for ordinary plebes, and that the Mouth is important enough to get away with it.

They use 'The Eye' as well when referring to him. I must admit I've thought of Peter Jackson's interpretation of Barad-Dur as an exotic periscope; the flaming Eye is separate from Sauron himself, merely an massive symbol of himself that the Orcs can fixiate upon it watching them always. In any case, carry on...

Helm'd Deep wrote:‘The land had changed. Where before the green dale had lain, its grassy slopes lapping the ever-mounting hills, there now a forest loomed. Great trees, bare and silent, stood, rank on rank, with tangled bough and hoary head; their twisted roots were buried in the long green grass. Darkness was under them. Between the Dike and the eaves of that nameless wood only two open furlongs lay. There now cowered the proud hosts of Saruman, in terror of the king and in terror of the woods.’

There must be a large number of Hurons if they can fill in Deeping-coomb, leaving only 1/4 a mile between themselves and the Dike.

The Road to Isengard wrote:‘But late in the night the watchmen cried out, and all awoke. The moon was gone. Stars were shining above; but over the ground there crept a darkness blacker than the night. On both sides of the river it rolled towards them, going northward.

“Stay where you are!” said Gandalf. "Draw no weapons! Wait! and it will pass you by!”

A mist gathered about them. Above them a few stars still glimmered faintly; but on either side there arose walls of impenetrable gloom; they were in a narrow lane between moving towers of shadow. Voices they heard, whisperings and groanings and an endless rustling sigh; the earth shook under them. Long it seemed to them that they sat and were afraid; but at last the darkness and the rumour passed, and banished between the mountain’s arms.’

Away south upon the Hornburg, in the middle of the night men heard a great noise, as a wind in the valley, and the ground trembled; and all were afraid and no one ventured to go forth. But in the morning they went out and were amazed; for the slain Orcs were gone, and the trees also. Far down into the valley of the Deep the grass was crushed and trampled brown, as if giant herdsmen had pastured great droves of cattle there; but a mile below the Dike a huge pit had been delved in the earth, and over it stones were piled into a hill. Men believed that the Orcs whom they had slain were buried there; but whether those who had fled into the wood were with them, none could say, for no man ever set foot upon that hill. The Death Down it was afterwards called, and no grass would grow there. But the strange trees were never seen in the Deeping Comb again; they had returned at night, and had gone far away to the dark dales of Fangorn. Thus they were revenged upon the Orcs.’

The crazy speed of the Huorns; the distance from Fangorn to Helm's Deep is some eighty miles, and they crossed it in a single night. Assuming it took them all night, that's easily 10mph as a low-end speed. They could very well strike out anywhere in Middle-Earth they wished and return to Fangorn in a day, without any warning for a defending foe.

Flotsam and Jetsam wrote: “It was the Huorns, or so the Ents call them in ‘short language’. Treebeard won't say much about them, but I think they are Ents that have become almost like trees, at least to look at. They stand here and there in the wood or under its eaves, silent, watching endlessly over the trees; but deep in the darkest dales there are hundreds and hundreds of them, I believe.

“There is a great power in them, and they seem to be able to wrap themselves in shadow: it is difficult to see them moving. But they do. They can move very quickly, if they are angry. You stand still looking at the weather, maybe, or listening to the rustling of the wind, and then suddenly you find that you are in the middle of a wood with great groping trees all around you. They still have voices, and can speak with the Ents - that is why they are called Huorns, Treebeard says - but they have become queer and wild. Dangerous. I should be terrified of meeting them, if there were no true Ents about to look after them.”

Possible Huorn origins, numbers and their abilities made plain. Also, when they went to Helm's Deep, they were escorted by some Ent sheepards. This would imply either that A) Ents can move just as quick B) The Huorns 'carried' them along or C)The Huorns simply left them in the dust. The first seems much more likely IMO.

Flotsam and Jetsam wrote:“But, though I could not see what was happening in the dark, I believe that Huorns began to move south, as soon as the gates were shut again. Their business was with Orcs I think. They were far down the valley in the morning; or at any rate there was a shadow there that one couldn’t see through.”

Another example of the Huorn 'shadow' effect.

Flotsam and Jetsam wrote: “As soon as our attack began, the few remaining rats in Isengard started bolting through every hole the Ents made. The Ents let the Men go, after they had questioned them, two or three dozen only down at this end. I don’t think many orc-folk, of any size, escaped. Not from the Huorns: there was a wood of them all around Isengard by that time, as well as those that had gone down the valley.”

Again indications of a very large number of Huorns, to be able to completely surround Isengard and fill in the Wizard's Vale.

Flotsam and Jetsam wrote:"But there was a rending, tearing, noise of work going on inside [the northern part of the woods surrounding Isengard]. Ents and Huorns were digging great pits and trenches, and making great pools and dams..."

Hurons contribute to destruction of Isengard. Relative strengths appear similar if both can accomplish the feats required for such massive construction projects on such a short scale.

Flotsam and Jetsam wrote:"Mists or shadows blotted out everything like a great blanket all around us. The air seemed hot and heavy; and it was full of rustlings, creakings, and a murmur like voices passing. I think that hundreds more of the Huorns must have been passing by to help in the battle."

"Hundreds more" Huorns in addition to those around Isengard, their numbers could very well be in the thousands.

NecronLord wrote:Another idea that's been proposed is that it's just for ordinary plebes, and that the Mouth is important enough to get away with it.

Or perhaps the "lower" servants of Mordor aren't worthy of speaking Sauron's name, or are afraid to for fear of attracting his attention.

That's what I meant.

Huorns

Treebeard also mentions trees that can become 'entish' which may also be Huorns...

Treebeard, some more wrote:. And yet again Ents are more like Men, more changeable than Elves are, and quicker at taking the colour of the outside, you might say. Or better than both: for they are steadier and keep their minds on things longer. 'Some of my kin look just like trees now, and need something great to rouse them; and they speak only in whispers. But some of my trees are limb-lithe, and many can talk to me. Elves began it, of course, waking trees up and teaching them to speak and learning their tree-talk. They always wished to talk to everything, the old Elves did. But then the Great Darkness came, and they passed away over the Sea, or fled into far valleys, and hid themselves, and made songs about days that would never come again. Never again.

Entirely supposition: There's somewhere in the Silmarillion, I think it's after the Dagor-nuin-Giliath, where the Noldor chase orcs into a forest, and they're promptly destroyed. I like to imagine hurons doing that too (Treebeard's quote above seems to suggest that talking trees existed some time before the elves were first summoned to Valinor). Moving trees shrouded in magical darkness tearing orcs to pieces are a very satisfying concept...

Ents presumably should be in any 'finished' Silmarillion, given that Gandalf says "A thing is about to happen which has not happened since the Elder Days: the Ents are going to wake up and find that they are strong.'" in TTT; My imagining of the War of Wrath includes them tearing trolls to pieces and stomping orcs in grand style.

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