How have you seen membership change over the years?

It seems to me that it is taken for granted that karate clubs are nowadays coming up against stiffer competition than before. An instructor recently spoke in a class about how membership was down because karate was being squeezed on one end of the spectrum by things like tai chi, and on the other end of the spectrum by MMA. As well as that there are more martial arts in general competing for the same people, for example Judo, BJJ, TKD, and Capoeira.

The university club that I used to train in was once the only martial arts club, and was incredibly busy. Then came Judo, then TKD, and now many other similar clubs. These days the karate club is far smaller both in terms of beginners starting and staying, and also new members coming in with training already. I remember one year having enough black belts join as freshers to form new men's and women's kata teams immediatly, which formed a core for a few years.

I have my own theories on this, but I wanted to ask what people thought. Is there more pressure now than there was before? Have you noticed a difference? Should anything and can anything be done to address this?

Good topic! There is definitely a wider choice when it comes to martial arts today. However, when it comes to the membership levels of individual clubs there are many other considerations including how well what is being taught is being taught, what is the focus of training and does that match with how a given demographic want to train, the quality of the facilities, expense, etc, etc. Ultimately, if you are teaching well, are able to reach your target group, and are able to convince your target group that you will deliver results, you’ll always have a successful dojo.

People talk about the popularity of MMA; but there needs to be a marked distinction between those who watch MMA events, those who want to train non-competitively in it, and those who want to compete. A friend of mine runs an MMA group and, despite the popularity of MMA, they struggle for numbers. The reason being that the focus of the group is on producing competitors and in the words of my friend, “MMA is one of those things that people like the idea of doing, but don’t like doing.”

Watching the UFC, wearing a Tap Out t-shirt and telling people you train in MMA is one thing. The gut-busting training for actual competition and then stepping into the cage is something .

I also know someone who ran a successful karate dojo and, in an attempt to “cash in” on the MMA boom, he got other instructors in and rebranded his facility as an MMA gym. The result was all the children, families, and people over 35 left (because they had differing training goals) and he was left with a small number of males in their early 20s – who typically have very little disposable income – and it effectively crippled his business. A small number of students paying small amounts meant he started to really struggle to stay afloat.

Another friend of mine started teaching karate based fitness classes, and he regularly gets around 90 people per class! Conversely, his karate classes typically have less than 10 people in. He likes teaching both, but acknowledges that his students who train in karate in-depth are a different breed to those who enjoy his fitness based teaching.

As we all know, there are many different types of karate and differing approaches will appeal to differing people. Some of the better run dojo I am aware of appreciate this and try to cater to everyone’s needs through focused instruction such that they have self-defence based classes, kata only (i.e. Martial ART), point sparring classes, kick boxing classes, etc.

For those who stick to a more “focused” single prong approach, I can point to karate dojo that are booming, and others that are failing, regardless of the particular focus of their school; quality of instruction and organisation of training being the determining factors it seems.

There is a view that “real karate” will always attract small numbers in comparison to it’s more watered down modern-day counter part; but I would disagree. There are plenty of people out there who want hard, focused training; we just need to ensure that we reach those people so they know we exist.

rafanapa wrote:

Should anything and can anything be done to address this?

There is place and a demand for all the differing takes on the martial arts. Therefore it’s not so much about what we do, but aspiring to do what we do better than anyone else.

For me I am happy with the size of my class a few more members would be nice but its not the be all and end all.

I'm a martial artist not a business man. i have never claimed a salary in all my years teaching. the only thing that the club pays for is my Insurance and training equipment or courses i need to attend etc.

Its a not for profit school so costs are at break even.

I agree that the Tippy tappy non contact schools will alway have more content in them as (stated previously) everyone likes the idea of being a karate (martial art) black belt but doesn't wnat to accure the bruises and injuries that can occur when one trains in semi or full contact karate/martial art where you actually get hit for real.

One of my Black belts also holds a class for another school (an "offshot" of Go Kan Ryu) and he does it for the money (hates the quality of people grading as its turn up and then get a new belt regardless of actual passing the grade or not)

i know my school is via a nieshe market and only a certain type of person will attend and train and stay the test of time. I don't do egos, I don't force anyone to compete but if they want to I will assist to get them into the competition circuit

I was engaged in conversation a while with someone that had the attitude that karate was losing ground to other styles, and that it was a case of "adapt or die". There has been a lot of discussion about the olympics over the last few years, and a lot of people think that it is a necessity for karate to get in the olympics to compete with other styles.

I know some teachers who are adamant that what they are doing is the "proper" training as taught by sensei such-and-such, but their classes are decreasing and they refuse to countenance any change. Where is the boundary between a teacher training for their own sake and enjoying it if anyone shows up, or taking a look at their class and think "People aren't coming. Am I doing something wrong?".

I guess it comes back to another conversation I'm having on here about people testing themselves. Perhaps if someone doesn't claim to be "proper" and trains on their own, then that is one thing. If they claim to be the future and spectator-friendly and olympics-ready, but no-one is coming, then that is different.

One thing I think we need to be mindful of here is seeing a half empty dojo as being a good thing i.e. “No one trains at my class because we do proper karate”!

An empty dojo is not a sign of quality or virtue! Adopting this mindset means you accept that high quality karate is doomed to eventual extinction! It’s a very defeatist view in my opinion. I would also suggest that the art you purport to love needs you to think differently.

If what you are doing is so off putting to the beginner then I would suggest that a look at how you teach beginners is required. Training should be demanding and difficult, but it should also be structured and gradually increasing in intensity. If you have people fighting full on and full contact from day one, they are going to leave. But if you have a structured development in place – that will gradually develop the skills and confidence needed to fight all in – then you should be able to keep students no trouble at all. The demands we place on students should be commensurate with the skills they have developed.

My dojo does have small numbers; not because we are some “uber-kick-ass: only for the super tough" school, but because I don’t put enough energy into promoting the dojo as my time is largely spent elsewhere. We do OK through word of mouth and we have a pretty high retention rate, but if I wanted the dojo to be full to bursting, I could have that … without having to reduce standards!

We do have a structured development so students are never “thrown in at the deep end”, but are nevertheless always just out of their depth. We have high standard and people enjoy training with us. If I wanted more people, then I need to work more on promoting the dojo. To suggest I’d have to reduce standards to increase numbers is nonsense in my view.

As it is, my time and efforts are largely focused on macro level and I try to have a positive influence through this website, the podcasts, my seminars, etc. My club is a fun thing for me and my friends. We have small numbers, not because we are good, but because we don’t do enough to entice larger numbers through the door.

In my view it is a very unhelpful myth to say that good dojo must always have small numbers, and bad dojo are the only ones who can get people through the door. If you’re teaching good karate you don’t get off that easy!

To promote the art you love, and to ensure it has a healthy future, you need to get out there and make sure you provide the alternative to poor quality martial arts. Why simply “give up” and hand over the majority of practitioners to the poor instructors?! That’s hardly the martial spirit.

I know bad instructors who closed down within a few months of opening the doors. I know of bad instructors who have thousands of students. I also know of good instructors who closed down within a few months of opening the doors. And good instructors who have thousands of students. The conclusion therefore has to be there is no firm link between quality and numbers!

It’s common sense that a good quality product should dominate the market place. If you look at Apple, they do a great job of promoting their products to the masses, but that alone is not enough. They also produce great quality items and it is that combination that ensures their dominance.

Likewise, it should be good quality martial arts that are dominating … and if that’s not the case, then it’s not the poor quality instructors that are to blame, but the good instructors! The good instructors are failing to get the message out and to provide that alternative … and if they did that, the mix of good quality instruction and professional practice would see the poor instructors pushed to the sidelines and see them with the half empty dojo.

Seeing low numbers of students as a “virtue” is helping poor quality martial arts and the charlatans dominate. That mindset needs to be challenged and changed if the martial arts are going to have a healthy future.

If you are a good instructor with a half empty dojo, you need to put that right instead of bemoaning your lot or turning your lack of success into a virtue.

If you are a good instructor with a half empty dojo, you need to put that right instead of bemoaning your lot or turning your lack of success into a virtue.

Hi Iain,

As always I enjoy your writing and you make very intresting points.

But this kind of statement is only relevant, if the good instructor- gives a damn.

I have around 10 adult students, and we have been operating for about 8 years now, I don't teach children. We are non-commercial focused, very badly administered in fact. I will and have paid the hall fee's myself, it simply is not an issue, I certainly lose money in relation to martial arts each year.

We need to keep in mind we all have different motivaitons, and asses success in different ways. Granted I don't think I have ever seriously moaned about lack of students, I get disapointed if regulars move on elsewhere etc.

I/we do not compete with anyone, we do what we do, and if it's right for someone, thats great and if its not thats great to. I am very happy to advise a student where they may get on better etc.

I have to say that every large group training I have ever been involved in, has not been as good as a small group training. But theres a so many variables to be certain about such statements.

Our half empty dojo is a good thing IMO, I get to spend more time with each student in relation to their personal needs and development.

I have to agree with Shoshin here, I know there's a few people on here who've made a successful living with money in the bank out of Martial Arts. But most of the Instructors here have classes with just enough for the club to be self sufficient. For me if my class is half FULL then great I got more time to spend with each student.

I understand the point Iain Sensei is making here, and absolutely agree that quality Karate must be promoted. I consider my Sensei to be a high quality Karate instructor. He has been running a group of clubs for over a decade now. At its peak one of the childrens classes had around 50 students a few years back, now its about half of that. Its never made him any real money, and he does it for the love of the art. As he was saying to me today, 50 young students, from white belts to brown/black belts is very difficult to manage.

For me as an aging (50+) student who wants to get his shodan next year, the less students there are the better. In fact the best tuition I get is one to one in private lessons.

My Sensei trained with Kanazawa many years ago, and whilst he has the greatest of respect for Kanazawa as a Karateka and as a person, the actual training in a large hall with a large number of other students was very limited, mainly consisting of marching up and down the hall doing basics - is that quality Karate? I'm certainly not critising Kanazawa, as I've read books on him and bought DVD's of his (and yours Iain!), but if money is put to one side, there must be an optimum size class/hall, where the student gets the benefit of working with different partners, and has sufficient space, and gets the benefit of his Sensei's time.

Karate has definitely lost it's mainstream popularity..if you want that though you could still package yourself as "mixed martial arts", just bring in another arts instructor lol. I've seen a bunch of places like this, and some, in fact eventually seem to end up training MMA fighters even!

Beyond that though, it's going back to how it used to be, smaller groups with more focus..it's sad to see it be seen as such a joke in the mainstream, but you can still end up with the right people if you put yourself out there right way...I think.

Also if you get brand new people through the door and you do something genuine, and act genuine (this is advice from my own teacher that has turned out to be very true), people see it and they develop some loyalty. Not fake "YES SENSEI" loyalty either, the kind of loyalty you have for a friend who has shared something of value with you. For the right class of people, Karate is actually a perfect fit..it's just finding that class of people, and matching them with what you do.

As Iain mentions, people that really want to make money for their dojos (which I fully support BTW, people have to pay the bills and that should not be looked upon as a bad thing at all, or contrary to good martial arts), seem to do pretty well with fitness classes.

from my point of view i see my sensei teach a good class,mixed and varied and he is one of the better ones with beginners,but he works for an association and they are in charge of the advertising and pricing.the guy who is head of the association is a incredabilly old fashioned mind,doesnt even use email.he constantly sends flyers/cards down to be given out rather than use facebook or twitter.all info is via a leaflet and even the fairly new website has dust on it.one of the venues we use has another 2 big clubs using it and there numbers dwarf ours for no other reason than advertising.we are getting to the point where we have no new blood passing thru the ranks and although the die hards will continue to attend will our old fashioned mind want the club when its not generating enough revenue

I run a "small" club that I started ten years ago on my own. I work full time and for various reasons have no intention at this stage of going full time in Martial Arts. I advertise a little, have web site and a Facebook group. I reckon 99% of students have come from work of mouth. For precisely this reason the demographic of my adult class has changed radically over the years whereas my junior class is pretty consistent. In ten years our membership has troughed and peaked and currently we're plateauing. I won't lie that I'd like some more adult students but I have just the right number of juniors. At one point I had a waiting list for juniors! I can't really take any more juniors without students getting a diminished quality of tuition. I'm not sure how I could get any more adults.

My adults at one point were mostly 18-20 year olds just because one or two new students of their age came along and spread the word. My adults are now quite random with some 17 year olds but also parents of junior students.

I've continued to evolve my Martial Arts and I'm sure I teach very differently to how I did ten years ago. I'm continually critiquing and our syllabus and appending to it. This may have some bearing. I suspect not.

One tip for struggling clubs: increase your prices! A few years ago my club was troughing and so I increased our prices because I had to. Within weeks we were full to bursting. I'm told by several sources that it's because there was a perception that I had a higher quality "product." I've set out to make huge profits, just put a bit in the club bank account.

All this said, for my "small" start up with three students on the first night... I now have sixty students in three clubs. I have one club run by two of my students. Sixty is way insufficient for some people making a living out of Martial Arts but I know people who would be extremely envious of this number. It's all relative.

The reason I cite all of this is that the point made above is very true: success is a personal thing. It depends on your objectives. I am currently successful beyond what I originally intended or imagined. I'm extremely proud of what I've achieved. For some people I'd be a royal failure. I still believe that my numbers are such that I have energy on the may which inspires me to be the best Sensei that I can be, but I'm also able to produce what I believe to be a high standard of student.

Our half empty dojo is a good thing IMO, I get to spend more time with each student in relation to their personal needs and development.

Black Tiger wrote:

For me if my class is half FULL then great I got more time to spend with each student.

Let’s not confuse class sizes with over all dojo numbers. I think “full” should be defined as the maximum number of students you can effectively teach as opposed to hall capacity. I’d taken that as a given. A good teacher to student ratio is vital and if you have more students than you can effectively teach then you are going to have to split things up and teach more classes. It’s a good problem to have! By teaching more classes, you will be able to introduce more people to the high quality karate we all wish to promote.

However, if you instead go, “I’m having no more than 15 people in my class, and I’m not prepared to teach more classes” then you can’t complain when the person who would have been the 16th member of your group, but who you turned away, goes to the McDojo down the road. It’s a choice – and it may be the right choice for you – but it does kind of bar you from then bemoaning the fact that the poor quality dojos have all the students … because your choice contributed to your own small numbers and the McDojo’s increased numbers.

If people want to do martial arts, they will find a place to do it and I feel the good guys don’t do enough to provide the alternative to the McDojo.

As I mentioned in my previous post, I too have a small group because I’ve made a choice to focus most of my time teaching on the macro level. I think I’ve made a worthwhile contribution to karate as a whole in doing so (others may disagree). The fact is though that my small dojo numbers are entirely down to me not spending the time and resources to promote the club locally. It’s not the fault of other instructors providing an easy alternative. It’s a result of my choice to not spend enough effort attracting those students in the first place.

Back to my main point, if you want more people in your dojo then it’s up to you to make that happen. It’s also not healthy for karate overall if we take the view that small groups are only ever the ones who are teaching “real karate”. If everyone took that view then the McDojos win because the good guys refused to provide the alternative.

If you don’t want bigger numbers though personal choice, that’s fine. But be thankful others are fighting the battle for you. There are good people out there with very successful groups and it is because of them that karate has a future. If we do take small numbers to be a sign of good karate and point the finger the champions of the future then we are part of the problem. We help the McDojos by tearing down the good people who provide the alternative.

A small group is never a virtue; it can be a choice that fits with personal circumstances, but it is never an infallible sign of quality. Someone has to provide the alternative to the McDojos and we should all help those who do provide that alternative as much as we can. The trend of falsely believing a club that is making money and has healthy numbers is somehow automatically inferior to the dojo with no one it in and that is making a never-ending loss is not healthy.

Thinking small numbers automatically makes a group better is not good for karate. As I say, it can be a totally valid choice, but, for me at least, it is not something I admire in a group because it is entirely irrelevant to how good they are and what they are doing for karate as a whole. It does worry me that this self-defeating trend is so engrained in our collective thinking.

I agree to a point with what you say Iain but I don't think there's many Instructors who will turn away a student, I wont.

Tthe only students I will not accept are those with too much ego to get through the door, or anyone who any of my other students don't feel confortable are around, especially the children.

I am nearly full with regards to the size of the building I use in each class but I will still accept new students as they come in because not all of them will reach Blackbelt (statically only 1:1000 will grade to 1st Dan) and maybe one of them will become my best and most loyal and trusted student.

I don't think there's many Instructors who will turn away a student, I wont.

I have. And yes I probably lost students to what I would consider I less good class. I'm not 100% happy about that but I know that in the broad scheme of things it was the best outcome for all. I think any clubs that my prospective students would go to are still excellent... it's just that I believe my "product" to be the superior. Why wouldn't I?

It is indeed the choice we make and much as I hate to admit it there are factor aside from Martial Arts at work. I love Martial Arts. I intend doing them until the day I die and then again in the next life. BUT at the moment for a number of reasons I'm choosing to not give up my secure, paying career (in which I'm also find success and fulfillment.)

I could take on every student but I know that I'd then not be giving my students the attention that they need and are paying for. I wouldn't be happy with that. So I have a maximum number. I could choose to open more classes and go professional. As it stands, I make that considered decision and don't complain.

I agree totally Iain..also, much of what you're saying applies to the "you should never make money of Karate" tendency that often occurs along with the "we small because we're so good " tendency. Neither one has anything to do with quality, and people shouldn't convince themselves otherwise...IMO.

I agree totally Iain..also, much of what you're saying applies to the "you should never make money of Karate" tendency that often occurs along with the "we small because we're so good " tendency. Neither one has anything to do with quality, and people shouldn't convince themselves otherwise...IMO.

Totally agree! That attitude leaves good instructors penniless and powerless. I did a podcast on that not too long ago for those who maybe have not heard it:

One of the best things I've learned (from places like 24fighting chickens, 7 habits, etc) is that whenever there is a problem it's best to look at yourself first. If you can only train 20 people the way you want maybe your training method isn't very effective. If you look at the instructor training section at 24fighting chickens there are tons of articles on how to more effectively manage a class. Are you helping students set goals (do you even know why there really there), are you providing good feedback, communicating well, planning training sessions, etc.

If you don't know what person is there for you can't really help them and you can end up wasting a lot of time trying to get them to do things they are not interested in. When both you and the student set goals you can more effectively help them achieve them (to your standard presumably). I think Rob is right, you don't get to decide what the student is there for or why they want to learn karate. Just do what Ian recomends, make sure they are clear on what they are training for (ie where they are on the martial map) and what you require from them for you to accept the accomplishment of a goal.