I know Ribs just signed that contract extention in the off season, but I'ld like to see more ozuna at short and 3rd base. He's more consistant at the plate than the other 2, he's fast, and heads up base running; solid overall player.

Thank godness he saved us form wilson valdez

LuvSox

06-21-2005, 01:43 PM

I know Ribs just signed that contract extention in the off season, but I'ld like to see more ozuna at short and 3rd base. He's more consistant at the plate than the other 2, he's fast, and heads up base running; solid overall player.

Thank godness he saved us form wilson valdez

Exactly. He has talent, just needs to get in there.

samram

06-21-2005, 01:47 PM

No, he's being used as he should be now. I don't think he's good enough to play more than once or twice a week. I know people fall in love with guys who play well in short spurts, but I doubt he would put up good numbers if he got more than 300 at-bats.

LuvSox

06-21-2005, 01:50 PM

No, he's being used as he should be now. I don't think he's good enough to play more than once or twice a week. I know people fall in love with guys who play well in short spurts, but I doubt he would put up good numbers if he got more than 300 at-bats.

Where is the proof of that? Can he hit better than Crede? More than likely.

samram

06-21-2005, 01:59 PM

Where is the proof of that? Can he hit better than Crede? More than likely.

Where's the proof of that? They're 47-22 with Crede playing everyday. Why should they make a change?

kittle42

06-21-2005, 02:21 PM

Ahhh, the return of the "Ross Gload/Tony Graffanino argument."Pablo Ozuna is a good utility infielder. He is being used just fine.

FloridaSox

06-21-2005, 02:27 PM

Where is the proof of that? Can he hit better than Crede? More than likely.

The proof is that Pablo Ozuna is a 30 year old career minor leaguer with no power, low OBP (he never walks) and a career OPS of .668, far below Crede's .736 and and Uribe's .734. Pablo is a valued bench player because he can fill in at four infield and two outfield positions...but nothing more.

ondafarm

06-21-2005, 02:30 PM

Ozuna is playing fine in his current role. I would like to see him get a hair more playing time but he's not going to replace Crede or Uribe, unless either one of them goes down.

Wilson Valdez was basicly thrown to the wolves and has suffered because of it. He's had a hard time hitting lefties well but continues to be played against them. I think were he protected, like Ozuna is here, he'd be doing a lot better.

I love Ozuna's speed and would like to see him in more for that, but Ozzie seems to have taken Torborg's approach of always fielding the best defensive team possible.

I think Ozuna may be starting next year or thereafter.

hold2dibber

06-21-2005, 02:31 PM

Where is the proof of that? Can he hit better than Crede? More than likely.

Why "more than likely"? Ozuna is a career minor leaguer who has never had the level of sucess Crede had in the minors and hasn't been as good during his limited time in the majors. Virtually all of the evidence suggests that Crede is and will continue to be a better hitter than Ozuna.

JB98

06-21-2005, 02:40 PM

The Friends of Pablo have already forgotten the series in Colorado, where Ozuna butchered two plays at third base in the same inning. We win with pitching and defense, and we need our best gloves on the field. IMO, Crede and Uribe are the two best defensive players on our club. I don't care if they hit .240 or .250, as long as they catch the ball.

I'm glad Ozuna is on the team. He is an upgrade over Wilson Valdez in that utility role. However, that's all he is: a utility player. Ozzie is using him properly.

Just like the back-up quarterback on a football team, the utility guys on a baseball team are often very popular among fans. People need to understand the guys who fill those roles are in those roles for a reason.

MtEverett

06-21-2005, 02:42 PM

I know this is a stretch, but another career minor leaguer was scottie pods.
I think ozuna has some ability and all it takes the oppurtunity, which he hasnt gotten yet at the big league level. Now, I am not saying plug him in full-time, but when uribe and crede are going through their 0-40 streaks, lets get him in there alittle more often.

BaseballTonyght

06-21-2005, 03:30 PM

The proof is that Pablo Ozuna is a 30 year old career minor leaguer with no power, low OBP (he never walks) and a career OPS of .668, far below Crede's .736 and and Uribe's .734. Pablo is a valued bench player because he can fill in at four infield and two outfield positions...but nothing more.

Great post - that sums it up perfectly.

maurice

06-21-2005, 03:30 PM

Virtually all of the evidence suggests that Crede is and will continue to be a better hitter than Ozuna.

We'll see about that, but IMHO there's very little evidence that Crede ever will be an average-or-better MLB hitter. It's becoming increasingly clear that his "success" after repeating minor league levels < hill of beans. IMHO, Ozuna is at least as good as Crede offensively right now (less power but far more speed; neither player walks much). Crede's D gives him the edge on a pitching + defense team. However, he's hanging on to his starting spot by the skin of his teeth, mostly because KW couldn't find an adequate upgrade . . . yet. As PHG is fond of saying, Crede gets to start only because Iguchi plays 2B and not 3B.

In how many at-bats? *****. IF Ozuna was even close to starting line-up material, would he have been available to the Sox as a non-roster invite? Just because Ozuna can run the bases doesn't mean he should replace Crede. Remember that AWFUL game for Ozuna at 3B?? I'm sorry, but your logic sucks. Crede is a vastly superior defensive 3B and a better hitter, period.

And Crede's offensive numbers are dropping? Which Joe Crede are you watching? Not the Joe Crede who plays for the Chicago White Sox...

Joe Crede this month (june):
.294 / .368 / .588 with 4HR / 9RBI

Rocklive99

06-21-2005, 04:04 PM

He's being used fine now, he's a nice bench player. Did you forget when he almost cost us the game like 3 times a couple weeks ago, I forgot the game, but the Sox hitters picked him up so it was forgotten, but it was getting to the point where Oz would've had to sub for him in the middle in the game if one more mistake was made

mdep524

06-21-2005, 04:16 PM

I know this is a stretch, but another career minor leaguer was scottie pods. I think this is a great point that gets overlooked often. Just because a guy is career minor leaguer doesn't mean he will never amount to anything more than a bench player in the majors.

I don't think Pablo should start every day, but the Pods point shouldn't go unnoticed.

maurice

06-21-2005, 04:34 PM

In how many at-bats? *****.

My post says "in limited action." I'm just spelling out the available "evidence" folks keep refering to. It does not support the pro-Crede arguments contained in this thread. If you object to the sample size, you probably shouldn't have relied on Crede's numbers over the past 3 weeks.

IF Ozuna was even close to starting line-up material, would he have been available to the Sox as a non-roster invite?

Ozuna's a marginal major leaguer because he has not proven that he can hit consistently at the major league level. This also describes Crede, who probably has a future as a non-roster invitee when he's Ozuna's age.

Remember that AWFUL game for Ozuna at 3B??

Now you're working with a sample size of one ****ing game? Yeah, MY logic sucks, and you're a fountain of logic.

Let's take a closer look at that allegedly "awful" game. IIRC, posters objected to the following 2 plays:
- a barehand pickup on a bunt followed by a quick throw that ended up about 4 feet from the 1B bag and sailed down the line as Paulie shouted "ole."
- a diving stop of a rocket down the line that Ozuna double-clutched and barely missed throwing out a speedy runner on the opposite side of the diamond.
This from a SS playing out of position after riding the pine for about 100 consecutive games. Most 3B never even field either of those balls. Yeah, that was really awful.

Besides, who is contesting that Crede is better defensively? You beating a strawman. Again, my argument was:
There's very little evidence that Crede ever will be an average-or-better MLB hitter. . . . Ozuna is at least as good as Crede offensively right now (less power but far more speed; neither player walks much). Crede's D gives him the edge on a pitching + defense team.

Crede is . . . a better hitter, period. And Crede's offensive numbers are dropping? Which Joe Crede are you watching? Not the Joe Crede who plays for the Chicago White Sox...

Anybody who defends Crede for his offensive production is out of his mind, period. Crede offensively is among the worst starters in baseball. His initially mediocre numbers have been in freefall on an annual basis since he entered the league at an age when players are expected to improve. Look it up.

DaleJRFan

06-21-2005, 04:43 PM

blah blah blah

Fine. Start Ozuna and bench Crede. 12 days time, you'll be calling for Ozzie's head. You refute your own argument with the following:

This from a SS playing out of position after riding the pine for about 100 consecutive games.

Bench the 3rd baseman and replace him with a utility infielder. Awesome idea. While you are at it, put Harris at short since Uribe's offensive numbers are worse than Crede's. Look it up. Gag me with your self-righteous blather.

maurice

06-21-2005, 05:04 PM

Fine. Start Ozuna and bench Crede.....

Are you illiterate or just conceding that you have no meaningful response to anything I actually said?

Sxy Mofo

06-21-2005, 05:07 PM

The Friends of Pablo have already forgotten the series in Colorado, where Ozuna butchered two plays at third base in the same inning. We win with pitching and defense, and we need our best gloves on the field. IMO, Crede and Uribe are the two best defensive players on our club. I don't care if they hit .240 or .250, as long as they catch the ball.

I'm glad Ozuna is on the team. He is an upgrade over Wilson Valdez in that utility role. However, that's all he is: a utility player. Ozzie is using him properly.

Just like the back-up quarterback on a football team, the utility guys on a baseball team are often very popular among fans. People need to understand the guys who fill those roles are in those roles for a reason.

i won't forget that game. He made those two bad third base plays, albeit they weren't routine, but he also was thrown out on the basepaths a couple times. Which led to my shouted comment the next time he reached base: "don't steal!"

those were my only three sox games this year. *sob*

Buehrle > Wood

06-21-2005, 06:42 PM

Should Pablo be starting at 3rd or SS? No. Should he get some more playing time? Yes. Anyone who is going crazy defending Crede missed the point of this thread me thinks.

whitesoxfan

06-21-2005, 06:45 PM

Pablo is starting tonight...Uribe scratched due to a sore back.

MtEverett

06-21-2005, 06:48 PM

Be careful what you (I) ask for; am1000 just said ozuna is playing SS tonight because ribs has a strained back. Hope uribe is OK
:uribe: I am a poor man's miguel tejada

maurice

06-22-2005, 12:03 PM

1-3 with 2 RBI.

:gulp:

Tragg

06-22-2005, 12:39 PM

Anybody who defends Crede for his offensive production is out of his mind, period. Crede offensively is among the worst starters in baseball. His initially mediocre numbers have been in freefall on an annual basis since he entered the league at an age when players are expected to improve. Look it up.
His mediocre (or worse) hitting is hardly in a freefall, as he's had 2 full seasons and his second was a 9 point OBP slip from his first but with more home runs; this season, he's on pace for his best obp full season yet (not by much) and about the same power as last year.
So I'd say he's basically the same offensive player.
And his D is very good.
And many players have been mediocre or worse hitters their first few seasons in the majors but then improved - Everett comes to mind.

And frankly, Uribe's a big liability at the plate as well.

MtEverett

06-22-2005, 12:42 PM

:cleo My tarot cards show pablo leading off with uribe still sidelined with the bad back.

maurice

06-22-2005, 12:55 PM

As I've posted here many times, Crede's AVE, OBP, SLG, and (obviously) OPS dropped for each of the past 3 years. Until recently, he was on pace for a 4th consecutive drop, though the final numbers are TBD. Nonetheless, even his current numbers for AVE, SLG, and OPS are less than his craptacular career averages. Underperforming bad career numbers is not a sign of improvement.

many players have been mediocre or worse hitters their first few seasons in the majors but then improved - Everett comes to mind.

:?:
Crede is 27 years old with 1,507 career ABs. At the same age and with significantly fewer ABs, Everett posted .296 AVE, .359 OBP, .482 SLG. His numbers had consistently improved over each of the previous 2 seasons. Probably not coincidentally, this was the 1st season after he was traded from the Mets.

Tragg

06-22-2005, 01:12 PM

Crede is 27 years old with 1,507 career ABs. At the same age and with significantly fewer ABs, Everett posted .296 AVE, .359 OBP, .482 SLG. His numbers had consistently improved over each of the previous 2 seasons. Probably not coincidentally, this was the 1st season after he was traded from the Mets.

Everett - you're using age, I'm using full or at least seasons with significant time. At an equivalent level of ML experience, Everett was a better hitter than Crede is now, but not nearly what he (everett) was later. He improved greatly. And like Crede, his production went DOWN each of his first 3 seasons in which he had signficant PT. Then he took off.
Will Crede follow a similar pattern of performance. I have no idea. Sure I'd like an upgrade. But I don't want to give him away either (which is what we'll do if we trade him) nor get stuck with some immense contract like Chavez has for another 5+ seasons.

maurice

06-22-2005, 01:25 PM

Everett - you're using age

But at the same age, Everett had less MLB experience than Crede.

At an equivalent level of ML experience, Everett was a better hitter than Crede is now, but not nearly what he (everett) was later.

"Better" is the understatement of the year. Crede would give his left nut to hit .296 / .359 / .482. BTW, those numbers are better than Everett's career numbers. He only had 2 years that were significantly better.

And like Crede, his production went DOWN each of his first 3 seasons in which he had signficant PT.

This is not true. Everett's OPS between the ages of 24 and 27 went as follows: .788 - .633 - .728 - .840. That's not a 3-year decline. It's a 1-year decline followed by 3 consecutive years of dramatic improvement. Crede's pattern is rather the opposite, despite significantly more PT.

Will Crede follow a similar pattern of performance.

Obviously not. It's just a bad comparison.

Look, I don't want to give him away either and never said so. I'm as wary of big contracts as anybody on this site. Crede is your starting 3B until KW finds an improvement, and that may not happen for a long time. Just don't try to tell me that he's a good offensive player when he blows.

batmanZoSo

06-22-2005, 01:31 PM

Ozuna's definitely not an every day player, but it wouldn't hurt to give him just a little more time. He's a good bunter, he's fast and he's a smart baserunner. Whenever Crede looks to be overmatched or is really struggling and needs a day off, I'd put Ozuna out there. It would probably help Crede, too.

Tragg

06-22-2005, 01:42 PM

This is not true. Everett's OPS between the ages of 24 and 27 went as follows: .788 - .633 - .728 - .840. That's not a 3-year decline. It's a 1-year decline followed by 3 consecutive years of dramatic improvement. Crede's pattern is rather the opposite, despite significantly more PT.

I was looking just at OBP (which was a 3 year decline), but using your numbers, it IS a 2 year decline and what looks to me a similar pattern as Crede has, with the fourth year remaining to be seen. A lot of ML hitters have blossomed in their late 20s after a few years of experience (I'll spare the names - some might have been steroid enhanced, but you still have to get the bat to meet the ball, roids or not).
I think there's a reasonable chance that he develops into a decent hitter. It's probably not enough for 3rd base - but his strength, power, is something you want at third. And let's see how we spend our money next year. In a year or 2, Dye and the Cubans will roll off the payroll (Konerko too), presumably we'll sign some players to fill holes, hope others are filled internally (Sweeney/Anderson/maybe a SP). We may or may not want a FA 3rd sacker.
And I think GMs would like to have Crede because they figure they can get him for some grizzled mediocre veteran who isn't very good either, but better than Crede right now, while Crede just may improve and has a good glove even if he doesn't. No thanks to that. I know you're not advocating that, but if we move him, that's what we're going to get.

As for Chavez, if Beane will take the equivalent of what he gave us for Durham, maybe so (although that is still a sucky contract) but no more.

maurice

06-22-2005, 04:15 PM

using your numbers, it IS a 2 year decline and what looks to me a similar pattern as Crede has

Sorry, but I don't see a "2 year decline" for Everett or a "similar pattern" for Crede.

Change in OPS for Everett between age 24 and 27: down (-.155), up (+.095), up (+.112).
Change in OPS for Crede between age 24 and 27: down (-.085), down (-.024), TBD (about the same so far).

We may or may not want a FA 3rd sacker.

Agreed. A trade or FA move is possible but not likely, IMHO. KW may opt to stick with Crede for the next few years, even if he doesn't improve . . . or he may replace him with an in-house option like Fields or Schnurstein. We'll see.

DaleJRFan

06-22-2005, 04:21 PM

Sorry, but I don't see a "2 year decline" for Everett or a "similar pattern" for Crede.

Yea... didn't Everett spend the first half of his career as a bench guy and broke out later on around 29-30???

I'd love to think that Crede is a stop gap for Fields, but from what I have seen and heard, Fields isn't exactly setting the world on fire. But, then again, Crede was Captain America when he was down on the farm.. and he ended up being a disappointment to a lot of people.

maurice

06-22-2005, 04:23 PM

Fields has been terrible lately, but he's got plenty of time to turn it around. I suspect we'll have Crede the rest of this year and all of next year at a minimum.

DaleJRFan

06-22-2005, 04:39 PM

Fields has been terrible lately, but he's got plenty of time to turn it around. I suspect we'll have Crede the rest of this year and all of next year at a minimum.

Crede is arb. eligible after this season. The Sox could non-tender him, as they did with Schoeneweis, and find a new 3B.

lostletters

06-22-2005, 05:25 PM

"I know this is a stretch, but another career minor leaguer was scottie pods.
I think ozuna has some ability and all it takes the oppurtunity, which he hasnt gotten yet at the big league level. Now, I am not saying plug him in full-time, but when uribe and crede are going through their 0-40 streaks, lets get him in there alittle more often."

Exactly. Plus I do not think Ozuna is the type of hitter that goes 0-40. He may not walk much, but he has the type of speed where he can get quite a few infield hits. Additionally he is consistant. The speed of Ozuna allows for consistency that Crede simply lacks.

He may not have the power of crede, but he is easily the second fastest player on the team after Pods. While there may be a defense advantage to crede or uribe, there is definately a speed advantage to Ozuna. He is the type of hitter that will hit a steady .280, maybe .300, and he has alot of speed.

It brings in the philosophy of making your #9 guy an additional leadoff hitter. A guy who can bunt for hits and steal bases. This is something that crede cannot do.

Sorry, but Crede is a very streaky hitter. Ozuna is very consistant. He is the type of player that makes things happen. While Crede does have power, he is a very one dimensional hitter in the batters box, and very streaky.

I will give the edge to Uribe, because he does have speed and while streaky as well, I rather have him out there then not. Tell you truth I would love to see Uribe at third and Ozuna at short. As good as Crede is at third, Uribe is better. Additionally Uribe can do things as a hitter that Crede cannot do, such as bunt and hit sac flies consistantly.