If you owned one of Kimura's master pieces would you try to foist it off as your own work, or would you make sure everyone knew it was a Kimura master piece? This entier discussion would mean nothing if it was totally about the tree, but it's not.

Vance if I bought the tree, it would then be mine to do as I want with! Is this not so?
If I chose to give it away or set it on fire the tree belongs to me! Yes?
I do not care who has styled the tree nor who created which branch!
My care is only for the tree!
And if I were to list the creator of the tree I think it would start a war between Christians and non christians!
I am in Bonsai because I love the wee trees I do not care for shows!
To me, shows are like golf! Why would anyone hit the ball to chase after it just to hit it again! Where is the joy of sharing Bonsai? Where is the companionship with helping a friend along the way? In order for a person to grow in Bonsai they must always be willing and eager to be the student as well as the teacher! If not,it becomes just another hobby!
These are just my views! It does not matter who agrees or disagrees. The beauty of any object is only in the eye of the beholder!
My views do not change because someone else does not see what I see.
Irene

Irene, this is about the trees.This is also about who created the trees.Di Vinci's last SupperMonet's Water LilliesWalter Pall's Japanese MapleWhy should there be a difference?When I looked at The Mona Lisa in person for the first time, my first thought was how small it was in real life, I expected it to be bigger. I studied the picture for some time, not once did I think of the artist, I enjoyed the art, it was all about the painting.In the end though, Di Vinci still gets the credit. And that is all this is about, giving proper credit to the actual artist, what is wrong with that?

Will

Di Vinci is dead! The trees are not!
Walter may change the maple or not, but the tree is alive! As is Walter who may decide to burn it! It is his to do with as he so chooses!
To me it is like giving your pedigree to everybody!
Hi, my name is: fill in the blank________.
I was created by: List parents here________.
It does not make sense!
Irene

Vance if I bought the tree, it would then be mine to do as I want with! Is this not so?If I chose to give it away or set it on fire the tree belongs to me! Yes?

Absolutely, however giving credit to the artist that created the tree is a demonstration of moral integrity. To acquire a tree, give it a manicure, claiming as your work is not unlike pledgerism. It is done all the time and condemned.
In "true" bonsai spirit, credit is never claimed where it doesn't belong.

Forgive me if someone else has already stated this:If as you say this is about the artist Please explain why you are taking pictures of the trees?Why not just a picture of the Artist/Creator?Bonsai is about the trees not the persons, not the pots, not the stand, not the scroll, not the rock, etc. etc.Irene

Irene,I believe in order to grasp the full concept of this discussion you need to read the entire thread from the beginning. Should this have been done, I believe you have missed the point somewhere in the discussion.Although opinions will vary, it is about giving credit where credit is due.

Vance if I bought the tree, it would then be mine to do as I want with! Is this not so?If I chose to give it away or set it on fire the tree belongs to me! Yes?

Absolutely, however giving credit to the artist that created the tree is a demonstration of moral integrity. To acquire a tree, give it a manicure, claiming as your work is not unlike pledgerism. It is done all the time and condemned.In "true" bonsai spirit, credit is never claimed where it doesn't belong.

How many bonsai artists will buy a finished or completely styled bonsai? Yes, not many. How many patrons are going to enter a bonsai in a show and say they did it, not many. Is this really a big problem?
Just a guess but I would think that most of the visitors to this site love to create bonsai from any means they can whether from seed or collected material or like the second photo of this article imported stock from Japan. Which leads me to ask how much did the two artists change this tree upon the first styling and was it the first styling. Was the real artist the grower in Japan? In the caption it states the tree was first styled by them both one of them owned it then sold it to the other. Why does it say this was styled by Mauro should it not say bonsai by Mauro and Enrico. The first photo, bonsai by Janet Roth then goes on to say Boon supervised and Michael wired and restyled it last. No offence to Janet but how can it be said ?bonsai by Janet?. Will, did you pick these bonsai and word the captions to generate controversy and discussion?
Styling is also only one aspect of bonsai. Keeping a tree alive and maintained in good condition is also very demanding and does take considerable knowledge and skill. If not cared for properly it will lose it?s form and look like crap. No one can argue this. So no matter at what stage one acquires a tree it must become theirs at some point. I do feel in a judged competition the owner or the artist should not be mentioned. If either of their egos need to be stroked that can happen after they win if the need is that great. The judging should be done on the bonsai (or display), and then the artist or owner can take credit or give credit where it is due.
This argument seems pointless to me. If a patron wants to put a great purchased bonsai into a competition so be it. Every one else will know he did not style it. If a patron wants to call it his or her own, who cares? If he lies and tells us he did all the work we will know and this person will be looked down upon.
The artist hopefully will learn of his styling success and we will all enjoy the bonsai.
Cheers
Chuck

How many bonsai artists will buy a finished or completely styled bonsai? Yes, not many. How many patrons are going to enter a bonsai in a show and say they did it, not many. Is this really a big problem? Just a guess but I would think that most of the visitors to this site love to create bonsai from any means they can whether from seed or collected material or like the second photo of this article imported stock from Japan. Which leads me to ask how much did the two artists change this tree upon the first styling and was it the first styling. Was the real artist the grower in Japan? In the caption it states the tree was first styled by them both one of them owned it then sold it to the other. Why does it say this was styled by Mauro should it not say bonsai by Mauro and Enrico. The first photo, bonsai by Janet Roth then goes on to say Boon supervised and Michael wired and restyled it last. No offence to Janet but how can it be said ?bonsai by Janet?. Will, did you pick these bonsai and word the captions to generate controversy and discussion?Styling is also only one aspect of bonsai. Keeping a tree alive and maintained in good condition is also very demanding and does take considerable knowledge and skill. If not cared for properly it will lose it?s form and look like crap. No one can argue this. So no matter at what stage one acquires a tree it must become theirs at some point. I do feel in a judged competition the owner or the artist should not be mentioned. If either of their egos need to be stroked that can happen after they win if the need is that great. The judging should be done on the bonsai (or display), and then the artist or owner can take credit or give credit where it is due.This argument seems pointless to me. If a patron wants to put a great purchased bonsai into a competition so be it. Every one else will know he did not style it. If a patron wants to call it his or her own, who cares? If he lies and tells us he did all the work we will know and this person will be looked down upon.The artist hopefully will learn of his styling success and we will all enjoy the bonsai.CheersChuck

Chuck,
Perhaps the Ego's should be checked at the door!
Can you have Pride in what you have achieved? Yes!
But if a person needs all the back patting perhaps they need a Doctor more!
Irene

If all the egos were checked at the door the room might be close to empty. ;-)
Yes Irene, if one does not take pride in what they are doing it will never be as good as it can be, bonsai or anything else.
As for the egos, well, every time I viewed the Us against Them photo contest I had to chuckle, ?best overall bonsai?, best this, best that. Got to have an ego if you really think your bonsai is the best.
Some people do need stroking more than others but I do not think a doctor is required. Winning a contest would be nice but recognition from your peers, to me, would be the best flattery. If I have my ego stroked it feels good and I would feel pride. This does not mean that I or others have to have a pat on the back.
Chuck

As for the egos, well, every time I viewed the Us against Them photo contest I had to chuckle, ?best overall bonsai?, best this, best that. Got to have an ego if you really think your bonsai is the best.Chuck

Not everyone entered with the expectation of winning. In fact I will be greatly surprised if my trees aren't the bottom three entries. I entered as a learning experience and in expectation of some constructive criticism.

Sorry Larry but it was a contest to see if We were better than Them.
This seems silly to me but it was set up to compare "world class" bonsai from North America and Europe. There is a forum for critiquing. I assumed the entries were to compete in this category, "best of".
I am opinionated but did not mean to hurt your feelings, sorry again Larry.
Chuck

No need to be sorry, my feeling weren't hurt. It's just some people don't believe in the concept that if your not first your a looser. This seems to be the way sports have gone. Gone are the days when you play for fun and you consider it a privilege to be allowed to compete.

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