About the Stonetalon quest i think is overall speculation, Garrosh is not stupid, but not a fine plotter and schemer too, he's not the kind of character that thoughtfully study a malicious plan in his throne room.

Well, he was schemer enough to plan or at least agree to somebody else's plan of murder of blue dragons and way to fool Kalec, did he?

Plus Thrall's "faults" and inner conflicts
Wsnt that the whole point of the Elemental Bonds quest line in 4.1?

It was, but that was also an occasion for Thrall's undying haters to see his desire to have a family like something TOO HOLY, GOOD, SWEETY CRAP and so he's still a mary sue (???)

Originally Posted by Florena

The novel Thrall: Twilight of Aspects I think handled it better. The problem with Elemental Bonds in 4.2 was that it was a glaring case of the writers failing the premise of 'show don't tell' when it comes to character traits. We don't see those flaws affecting his actions or affecting his life. We see them shouted from the rooftop only for Aggra to help him overcome those flaws in the very same questline they're introduced in. Take Garrosh for example. We don't need his subconscious manifesting to tell us that he's ruthless and proud to a fault. For that questline to work, it would have needed to set up those character flaws in advance.

I think that the Elemental Bonds chain wasn't handled in the best way. However, different characters are different; some characters are supposed to sucumb to their flaws, others not; Thrall's way of handle them was to acknowledge them, not belive that he doesn't have, and then try to overcome them for follow a path in which he couldn't let himself be plagued by fears and doubts; so it's normal that beside the Elemental Bonds we don't see anymore a Thrall doubting all the time what he have to do, otherwise he would have miserably failed.

However, grave consequences of bad choices took by him from the past still linger nowdays with the whole matter of Garrosh. In the 5.1, when he aids the Darkspear from the Kor'kron's roflstomping, he have doubts again, about which was the right choice to do, because he doesn't belive that kill his people until they miraculously change idea is the best thing to do, and in the 5.3 these doubts are again shown, reason for which he decides to go to Orgrimmar, for belive and be sure that not all the orcs sustain Garrosh.

He didn't return saying "Haa haaaaa, Garrosh you dumbass sucker, i saved the world and i'm a perfect and flawless person now, i'll show you which is the coolest and right orc, you misbigotten whelp!"

---------- Post added 2013-05-19 at 02:28 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Sci

all you spineless Garrosh hating pansies take your cuddly ideals and go join the alliance... take your bloodelves with you

HELLSCREAM!!!!

You can take all your lust of dominance and mindless pride and join the Dark Horde. You'll miss the harsh desert of Durotar when you'll arrive at the Blackrock Mountain...

Another reason people hate his 4.2 chain is that it derails the restoration of Nordrassil plot so it can end with Thrall's wedding, and that Staghelm's only major appearance outside of the raid was having him thrown a Thrall because lolprophecy rather than giving him any development with Malfurion, instead only having the Guardians of Hyjal encounter a character they made up for the patch in Leyara.

I second this. He was already coming across as an incompetent prick in Cata.

He was.

But at least he was trying.

Now he doesn't even have that going for him. All his principles and redeeming qualities were tossed right out the window like a shotput. He's no longer the brash but hoinourbale and principled orc, he's 100% raging douchenozzle.

I don't particularly see Thrall as a Mary Sue. I see him, in contrast to Garrosh, simply being a more neutral character, which is different from a Mary Sue. Garrosh tends to go to extremes - we've never seen him just act neutral about anything. He has his extreme sadness, to extreme domination, to extreme prejudice, to extreme daddy issues. Thrall is more centered, but he does have emotions, doubts, and flaws. the Elemental Bonds questline simply tried to show that to players, but didn't do it that well, because in the end it didn't matter anyway. He still allowed the Alliance to help him, even after showing his anger toward Varian. He still allowed Garrosh to become Warchief, even though he felt that he had doomed the Horde by doing so. It simply could have been executed more elegantly, and more often to reaffirm the notion.

I would consider Anduin more of a Mary Sue. His mindset is always "do the right thing" about everything. He has no plans for revenge or malice. The worst he's done is disobey his father in the Twilight Highlands pre-quests, and Jedi mind-control Sully in Jade Forest to get his way. But, he did both of those things for the betterment of the world. He isn't a very multi-faceted character at all, and doesn't have much of his own personality in my opinion. He has even taken the role of Jaina pre-MoP in his ongoing quest for everyone to get along and be neutral. He isn't even mad that Garrosh, like, broke his entire body.

Compare both Thrall and Anduin to Garrosh, now. He, as well, isn't a multi-faceted character. He is completely controlled by his emotions at all times. We have been shown time and time again that he wants power, land, and approval. Thrall and Anduin both want Azeroth to be safe. The difference now is, Thrall has choices to make regarding his own mistakes, and acknowledges his mistakes in the Elemtal Bonds questline, in 5.1's quests, and the things we'll see in 5.3. Thrall has emotions, but he isn't (always) controlled by them. A Mary Sue, in essence, has no other feelings than "I hope everyone is happy. "

3 hints to surviving MMO-C forums:
1.) If you have an opinion, someone will say that it is wrong
2.) If you have a source, there will be people who refuse to believe it
3.) If you use logic, it will be largely ignored
btw: Spires of Arak = Arakkoa.

Well, he was schemer enough to plan or at least agree to somebody else's plan of murder of blue dragons and way to fool Kalec, did he?

It's probably a Malkorok's plan. When there is something handled in a smart and dishonorable way, that guy it's probably behind it, Garrosh simply agrees because the more the war goes on the more machiavellic he becomes. But agree with somebody else's plan is a thing, have the malicious mind for elaborate it is another. Plus, the ambushed party was just a group of blue dragons, not enemies, but not even friends or allies too.

Another reason people hate his 4.2 chain is that it derails the restoration of Nordrassil plot so it can end with Thrall's wedding, and that Staghelm's only major appearance outside of the raid was having him thrown a Thrall because lolprophecy rather than giving him any development with Malfurion, instead only having the Guardians of Hyjal encounter a character they made up for the patch in Leyara.

Yeah but don't give to Thrall the fault of all the evil in the world, it's growing annoying. If any kind of development between tha two was going to take place, then that should have happened in the Firelands/Molten Core and 4.2 patch in general. It is not just fault of the Elemental chain and the "lolprophecy", that was still possible in all the rest of the 4.2, where Thrall will never show his face again, after the chain. Still, i think that the story of Leayara and her tie with Staghelm has been handled decently well.

---------- Post added 2013-05-19 at 03:06 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Dreknar20

what bout that one part?

"king Varian...you wish to make war on my people..you shall have your war human! You shall see the fury of the Horde rage through your cities. You shall see your throne split in two! This I swear!"

BUT THEN HE DIDN'T SAY THAT ANYMORE AND DIDN'T MAKE NOTHING !!1!11!!!11!

Garrosh simply agree because the more the war goes on the more machiavellic he becomes. But agree with somebody else's plan is a thing, have the malicious mind for elaborate it is another. Plus, the ambushed party was just a group of blue dragons, not enemies, but not not even friends or allies too.

I guess the phrase "Desperate time call for desperate measures" apply here?

Plus Garrosh does have a mind for something other than straight up frontal charge such as Theramore. Even in the Shattering it showed him having a fallback plan, something not very common amongst "typical" Orcs.

Before mop I really hated Garosh.
I still hate him but less. I think he is moving in the right direction, my only problem is that he is just not brutal enough for me.
Here is what I would love to have seen; Invading pandaria; mass genocide; mass enslavement (slave ships going nonstop back to bladefist bay);
Slaves = Resource. The issue with letting pandas join the horde is simple, just make those few pandas joining the horde into traitors either as sell-swords or slave enforcers over their own kind.

He definitely comes across to me as someone who has lost sight of the cause, and of the greater good, of his faction... under Garrosh the horde feels closer to being 'evil' than it ever has.

The stuff with Theramore, Vol'jin, etc etc... he needs to go. Even if he's just defeated and imprisoned (which is unlikely), Garrosh has entered into 'no turning back' territory and even in my limited exposure to Horde lore (I'm an alliance player) he definitely feels like a borderline-psychotic warmonger.

I've always found myself more towards the Alliance and only playing Horde because all of my friends play it. I've never really liked Garrosh and personally think it's time for someone new at the Horde top. But lately I think the Horde storylines are just way more developed than the Alliance ones. I will go with the change and am very excited for what's to come.
I don't play "Lore Patches" (as I like to call 5.1 and 5.3) on the PTR so I don't know what exactly will happen in the Barrens but we will se

I don't play "Lore Patches" (as I like to call 5.1 and 5.3) on the PTR so I don't know what exactly will happen in the Barrens but we will se

Horde players kick off the civil war by aiding Vol'jin, Thrall, and Chen Stormstout, Alliance players help SI:7 pit the Darkspear Rebels and the Kor'kron Loyalists against each other. After the story culmination, Varian and Vol'jin strike up a loose alliance with the Alliance Player acting as the Alliance representative, and the rebels and the Alliance take out Kor'kron supply depots and protect caravans to get food, oil, and other necessities from Thunder Bluff and Ashenvale to Vol'jin for war production. You can farm the goods yourself by killing Kor'kron NPCs and finding gather nodes for 'em, and turn in a bajillion of each for some nifty stuff like a set of Kor'kron gear (designed to match your spec when you get a latent item and combine it with an item you get for the weekly quest, which can also drop off elite Kor'kron spawns, and which looks like dungeon set 2 for the Vanilla classes, a recolor of the DK blues you leave the starting zone with for DKs, and the level 40 quest greens for monks).

I guess the phrase "Desperate time call for desperate measures" apply here?

Pretty much, but still this proves how little personality Garrosh have.

Garrosh is, basically, a poser. You know, the guys that, for example, look at the metalheads and dress like them beliving that is cool and so on; but they are not truly metalheads, they just dress and habit like them. And the reason for this is that they don't have a defined personality, they search what they are in the others, not in themselves.
And Garrosh is almost the same. In Stonetalon he talked like Saurfang would have talked because he tries to be like him, like he tries to be like his father, all that he does is basically emulates, because in the end he doesn't know who he is, he doesn't have defined ideals and convinctions by his own, he tries to assimilates the others and make them his own.
In Stonetalon he cites Saurfang, beliving he have fully understood what the old man meant, but he did not. Saurfang with that sentence meant that no matter how bad, dramatic and dire a battle, a war will become, NEVER forsake honor, because survival doesn't mean nothing if you lose yourself and all in which you belived. But it's pretty clear that Garrosh doesn't belive in nothing by himself: he just tries to learn ideals by others, beliving to understand them, by failing to do so.

Garrosh is essentialy empty inside.

Plus Garrosh does have a mind for something other than straight up frontal charge such as Theramore. Even in the Shattering it showed him having a fallback plan, something not very common amongst "typical" Orcs.

Indeed, but all his tactics are fashioned in the same way. In Tides of War, Malkorok shows up, and suddenly these kind of tactics become extremely malicious and "cowardice", like Garrosh would love to call them; then we understand that Malkorok is the kind of person that doesn't value honor at all, and he's pretty efficient in doing dirty works like preparing "incidents" and bullying people like a Gestapo lieutenant. And THIS guy is the most prominent Garrosh's advisor. 2+2=4

Meh i guess understand people not liking "flawless" characters, but hate?

I mean im kinda similar, my favorite character in Cataclysm was Hellscream and he was far from perfect. And a character like Anduin will never win my vote3 as favorite character.

Anduin is simply too soft for a world like that of Warcraft, even Wrathion says that.

"king Varian...you wish to make war on my people..you shall have your war human! You shall see the fury of the Horde rage through your cities. You shall see your throne split in two! This I swear!"

Well, it would be nice if Thrall actually kept his word on that one. I could totally live with Garrosh dying if so. But then it kinda defeats the purpose of killing Garrosh anyway, when Thrall simply becomes Garrosh #2.

I guess post-MoP the war between the Horde and Alliance becomes kinda awkward, since if the Horde goes on the offense there will be obvious similarities with Garrosh and if they just sit around and do nothing people will be upset as well.

Well, it would be nice if Thrall actually kept his word on that one. I could totally live with Garrosh dying if so. But then it kinda defeats the purpose of killing Garrosh anyway, when Thrall simply becomes Garrosh #2.

I guess post-MoP the war between the Horde and Alliance becomes kinda awkward, since if the Horde goes on the offense there will be obvious similarities with Garrosh and if they just sit around and do nothing people will be upset as well.

From interviews with Metzen that took place shortly after the MoP press tour, it seems that the plan is to go back to the Vanilla cold war where there's an uneasy ceasefire between the armies, but there are border clashes and resources slugging matches that get overlooked by the top brass, until things flare back up again in the future.