Liveblog: The Orange County District Attorney's Kelly Thomas Hearing [Breaking: Two Officers Charged with Second and Third Degree Murder]

The Orange County District Attorney's office will hold a press conference at 11 a.m. PST to announce whether it will file charges against the six Fullerton police officers involved in Kelly Thomas's beating last July. KFI 640 will carry the press conference live. We'll be liveblogging it here starting in a few minutes. (Time stamps are EST, fyi)

2:05 p.m. Orange County Dist. Atty. Tony Rackauckas is speaking. "The public has been crying out for justice for Kelly Thomas."

"We must do everything we can to protect this trust. Including, when necessary, prosecuting police officers who break the law."

[Rackauckas's office has interviewed 151 people since July 7.]

I'm charging Officer Manuel Ramos with one felony account for second degree murder and one felony count of felony manslaughter. If convicted he could do 15 year or more in prison.

Jay Cicinelli faces one felony count of manslaughter and one felony count of excessive force. Could face four years in prison.

Ramos knew Kelly Thomas from prior contacts. He did not believe Kelly Thomas posed him any risk. Thomas was shirtless with a backpack wearing a pants with no obvious bulges. The officers did not think he needed to be patted down. While Ramos's partner went through Thomas's backpack, Ramos gave Thomas instructions. His instructions were to sit with his legs out with his hands on his knees. It would be obvious to any reasonable observer that Thomas had cognitive issues and had problems following Ramos's instructions. After several minutes, Ramos escalated the contact into a physical altercation.

Ramos made a deliberate showing of putting on latex gloves in front of Kelly Thomas. He stood over Kelly Thomas and repeatedly said to put his hands on his knees. Thomas would put his hands back and fold his legs. Ramos stood over kelly thomas with a pair of latex gloves and he made a demonstration while he was standing over kelly thomas of putting on those gloves in a menacing manner. When he put the gloves on, he ordered Kelly Thomas, "put your hands on your f-ing knees." He leaned over Thomas in a menacing way. He made two fists. He put his fist in Thomas's face and said, "See my fists? They're getting ready to F you up."

By making this declaration of violence against Kelly Thomas, Ramos instilled in that victim fear for his life. Fear of a police officer who wanted to F him up with his fists. Police officers have a right to force. But citizens have a right to self defense in the face of excessive force. Ramos took this contact from lawful use of detention to unlawful use of excessive force when he raised his fist. Ramos then grabbed Kelly Thomas by his arm. Thomas started taking steps away from Ramos. Then a baton came out. Kelly Thomas put his hands up, palms out, in a defensive positions. Palms open. Ramos yelled at Kelly Thomas, "Get on the ground." The other officer came running out from behind his car to assist with the arrest that officer Ramos was doing. The evidence does not indicate that Ramos' partner had any involvement in the exchange, or that he had any knowledge that Officer Ramos was engaged in unlawful police conduct. The physical altercation began as Officer Ramos swung his baton and chased Kelly Thomas. He punched Thomas in the ribs several times on the ground. He put his hand on Kelly Thomas' neck for leverage. He held him for other officers to use their force on Kelly Thomas. Wolf (Ramo's partner) kneed him and tackled him. Cicinelli arrived at the scene at 8:45 p.m. and kneed Kelly Thomas twice in the head. He used his taser four times on Thomas.

Three of the times Cicinelli taser Kelly, he held the charge five seconds. The fourth time he tased him, he discharged darts, and shocked Thomas for approx 12 seconds. Cicinelli used the front of the taser to hit Kelly Thomas in the face eight times while Kelly Thomas was pinned to the ground with the weight of the other officers' bodies. There was no audible response from Kelly Thomas at this time. When Kelly Thomas didn't scream, it should have indicated to Cicinelli that Thomas was down.

The evidence does not show that responding officers actually beating Thomas.

Thomas' numerous please of "I'm sorry," "I can't breathe," "Help," "Dad," were all to no avail. Kelly Thomas not responding when the blows to his face occurred? No help. The growing pool of blood? No help. Ramos is charged with murder for creating this dangerous situation that placed KElly Thomas' life in jeopardy and for placing the responding officers in that situation.

Ramos had to know he was creating a situation where Kelly Thomas would fear for his life. Ramos knew that the other officers would come to his aid and assist in applying force to Kelly Thomas. Ramos knew when he did that that Kelly Thomas was going to be hurt. Badly hurt.

The cause of death was mechanical suppression of the thorax. Kelly Thomas could not inhale. Over time his brain was deprived of oxygen. He went into a coma and died. That is the primary cause of death.

It falls so fall short of professional police conduct.

2:22 p.m. Reporter asks if more charges will be filed. Rackauckas says he doesn't think so. Ramos and Cicinelli will be arrained at 2 p.m. PST today. No trial team has been selected. Rackauckas will be lead prosecutor.

KFI is no longer airing the presser, so I'll get y'all more as soon as I learn it.

Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Report abuses.

It’s not good enough. If you drive the get away car following a bank robbery where someone is shot and killed by the robbers you will be charged with murder same as the guy who pulled the trigger. That is a fact and I have a client whose brother is doing life at San Quentin for just exactly that.

The other three cops assisted in the murder and they should be charged with manslaughter. The other cop just watched. He should also be charged as an accessory.

They indicted the ones who actually hit the guy. The others stood around and watched. Under your gang banger scenario, all six of the gang bangers went there with the intent of committing a crime that could forseeably result in a death. They are therefore all responsible for any deaths that occur. In this case, the other cops did not go there to commit a crime. They went there to do their jobs and these two clowns committed a crime. The other cops are therefore not guilty in the same way the gang bangers are. Now, you could say they are guilty because they didn’t intervene. But that would be very dependent on the California laws regarding the duties of peace officers.

Sure R.C. If the defense can show they didn’t know that their other gang bangers intended to commit a crime, then no they are not responsible. As a prosecutor, I am going to have to prove that the other people in the car knew or should have known that a crime was going to be committed. That is the whole point. You have to show that to indict the cops as well. And that is going to be nearly impossible.

Sorry but I can’t agree. You shouldn’t indict anyone unless you are dead certain they are guilty. And when DAs do that just because they don’t like the defendant they are wrong. And they would be wrong in this case.

You shouldn’t indict anyone unless you are dead certain they are guilty.

Then lets see the police reports. Unless they’ve been altered, they should show exactly what transpired, along with the observations from the incident of the other non-indicted officers.

The amount of time the department took to get this story straight is the suspicious behavior, and is indicative that they were going to have to ‘sacrifice’ somebody.

Hell the DA even admits it in his comment to the media “The public has been crying out for justice…We must do everything we can to protect this trust.”

This is one of the institutional problems with the current justice system, and it needs to be addressed. That there is no other avenue for the other officers to relate the occurrences of the beating than ‘official channels’ means that every time this occurs, it will take massive amounts of public pressure to get a charge against the government.

Sorry, but I’m not impressed at all.

The Fullerton city council, along with Fullerton PD, should be completely disbanded.

You shouldn’t indict anyone unless you are dead certain they are guilty.

Funny how prosecutors never follow that standard unless police are involved.

Using R C Dean’s scenario, you can bet your ass that everyone in the gangbanger’s car would have been charged, whether the prosecutor could have established intent or not. Probably even if they knew they didn’t get in the car with an intent to commit a crime.

But because the police are involved, they are far more careful about choosing who to prosecute.

Get them for atleast failure to render aid or ahbetting the crime. Did they restrain Ramos or check on Thomas at all? No, well that’s atleast neglecting their duty. The public doesn’t pay them to protect each other, we pay them to protect us. Fire their asses at the very least.

Yes, at the very, very least… fire them. Isn’t enough that they got away with participating / abetting a murder? Do they really have to kick and scream about being fired. Doesn’t that seem a bit churlish?

But someone will whine about unions and contracts.

Here’s my idea… the next union contract is negotiated by a panel of citizens who have had loved ones murdered by cops that went unpunished beyond a paid vacation.

Here’s my idea. Disband the department and contract with another LE entity, but make sure that new entity understands that sovereign immunity must be determined by a citizen panel before it can be awarded.

All murder which is perpetrated by means of a destructive device or explosive, a weapon of mass destruction, knowing use of ammunition designed primarily to penetrate metal or armor, poison, lying in wait, torture, or by any other kind of willful, deliberate, and premeditated killing, or which is committed in the perpetration of, or attempt to perpetrate, arson, rape, carjacking, robbery, burglary, mayhem, kidnapping, train wrecking, or any act punishable under Section 206, 286, 288, 288a, or 289, or any murder which is perpetrated by means of discharging a firearm from a motor vehicle, intentionally at another person outside of the vehicle with the intent to inflict death, is murder of the first degree. All other kinds of murders are of the second degree.

…

To prove the killing was “deliberate and premeditated,” it shall not be necessary to prove the defendant maturely and meaningfully reflected upon the gravity of his or her act.

–

California Penal Code Section 205

A person is guilty of aggravated mayhem when he or she unlawfully, under circumstances manifesting extreme indifference to the physical or psychological well-being of another person, intentionally causes permanent disability or disfigurement of another human being or deprives a human being of a limb, organ, or member of his or her body. For purposes of this section, it is not necessary to prove an intent to kill. Aggravated mayhem is a felony punishable by imprisonment in the state prison for life with the possibility of parole.

Every person who, with the intent to cause cruel or extreme pain and suffering for the purpose of revenge, extortion, persuasion, or for any sadistic purpose, inflicts great bodily injury as defined in Section 12022.7 upon the person of another, is guilty of torture.

The crime of torture does not require any proof that the victim suffered pain.

–

California Penal Code Section 12022.7

(b) Any person who personally inflicts great bodily injury on any person other than an accomplice in the commission of a felony or attempted felony which causes the victim to become comatose due to brain injury or to suffer paralysis of a permanent nature, shall be punished by an additional and consecutive term of imprisonment in the state prison for five years. As used in this subdivision, “paralysis” means a major or complete loss of motor function resulting from injury to the nervous system or to a muscular mechanism.

First degree requires some pre-meditation, doesn’t it? I don’t think threatening someone moments before killing them is pre enough to go from second to first.

In fact, in general, it is.

There is a concept known as “instantaneous premeditation.” “Premeditation” does not require you to ruminate at length, analyzing the options, pros and cons, and then finally conclude, “OK, I’m going to kill him.”

It simply is a change of your state of mind from recklessness to intentional. Very generally, Second Degree murder is wanton and reckless – you acted with wanton and reckless disregard as to the outcome of your actions. The law school hypothetical used is shooting into an occupied building or vehicle, where the shooter’s intent was simply to shoot at the place, not to kill any particular person.

Now, maybe this guy was preparing to use excessive force to “discipline” this “wayward civilian” and “teach him a lesson,” but had no intent of any kind to kill him. Still, he acted with wanton and reckless disregard as to whether his serious shit-kicking of this guy might terminate his life. That doesn’t mean his intent was to end his life.

It is possible, however, for a person’s intent to change instantaneously – at some point, the intent to kick the guy’s ass might become an intent to kill the son of a bitch.

The problem is, murder defendants rarely come out and say, “oh yeah, I was trying to kill him.” So the court has to infer what the person’s state of mind was, based on the objective evidence.

They probably would be overreaching here if they went for First Degree murder, because of insufficient evidence to prove the required intent.

Pretty much what happened with Casey Anthony – she was found not guilty because the prosecutors got overly cocky and tried to nail her with First Degree murder. They should have gone for reckless or criminally negligent homicide, rather than intentional killing.

Ah, but there’s another theory for murder 1: the Felony Murder Rule. A cop acting in his official capacity, beating the shit out of a citizen would (or should) be a 42 USC 1983 violation, a felony. Commission of felony + resultant death = murder 1, baby.

42 USC ?1983 provides a civil remedy, not a criminal remedy AFAIK. DOJ probably could prosecute them for civil rights violations under another statute, like they did the cops involved in the Danzinger Bridge shooting after Hurricane Katrina.

The evidence does not indicate that Ramos’ partner had any involvement in the exchange, or that he had any knowledge that Officer Ramos was engaged in unlawful police conduct.

Other than the evidence of his fucking eyes that his murderous partner was about to go to work with a baton on a citizen. Apparently, a citizen that was well-known to the officers as not being a threat.

He held him for other officers to use their force on Kelly Thomas.

And those other officers, who were beating a man who was being restrained by one of their fellows, they were not indicted why, exactly?

RC you are changing the facts. In your scenario the third gang bangers knows his friends are committing a crime and goes there specifically to participate. If you can show me that the two cops who are indicted got on the radio and told the other cops they planned to beat up a homeless guy and the others should come watch, then yes the others can be indicted.

But that doesn’t appear to be the case here at all. The others showed up as backup to what they thought was a legal arrest. Now, once they got there they saw the crime being committed and did nothing. That may or may not be a crime. In some states peace officers have an affirmative duty to intervene in a crime. In other states they don’t. If they don’t have a legal duty to intervene and stop the crime, they are not guilty of the crime. And there is no evidence here they were accessories.

Maybe when groups of gangbangers do crimes, the DA carefully parses exactly what happens, and any of them who were present but didn’t actively participate in particular illegal acts are politely allowed to walk. I honestly couldn’t say.

“A more careful reading indicates that the only two cops who actually hit him were charged.”

No, it says that three cops beat him, and only two were charged.

The physical altercation began as Officer Ramos swung his baton and chased Kelly Thomas. He punched Thomas in the ribs several times on the ground. He put his hand on Kelly Thomas’ neck for leverage. He held him for other officers to use their force on Kelly Thomas. Wolf (Ramo’s partner) kneed him and tackled him. Cicinelli arrived at the scene at 8:45 p.m. and kneed Kelly Thomas twice in the head. He used his taser four times on Thomas.

Since, Wolf wasn’t charged, and the other two were, and these events occured before the other officers arrived, I would suspect Officer Wolf provided this account. I wouldn’t be surprised if he took a deal in exchange for testimony.

This is such a horrible case. I think all officers that were there and didn’t intervene should be held accountable for the death of Kelly Thomas equally. Time after time you will hear similar stories like this and it is just wrong that some officers think they can get away with such horrible crimes….who really is behind enforcing the law?!?!? Scary right? Once again I keep thinking about the Thomas family and my prayers go out to you. I hope justice will be served or should I say it better be served, please DA and your team put these guys away!!!!!

I think the reason there are only two indictments is because if you as a cop come running up on another cop beating someone to death, you’re allowed to join in if you did not directly witness the illegal police conduct that began the altercation.

I guess you’re just allowed to assume that the guy you’re beating to death deserved it, or he wouldn’t be there.

I’m being a little flippant about it, but I guess there is actually a tiny little bit of merit to that. If a crooked cop radios me and says that he’s being shot at and I drive to his location and shoot someone because I think a firefight is going on, I don’t become a murderer if it turns out that the crooked cop lied and there never was a shootout. I’m entitled to believe him. Right?

Yes. And also you are not a co-conspirator with him because you went there to do your job not commit a crime. It is all fact dependent. If the guy is obviously incapacitated and not a threat and they are still beating him, you don’t have a right to assume he deserves it and join in. You have to use your judgment regarding the use of force. I am not familiar enough with this case. Were there cops who joined in the beating but were not charged? If so, that seems wrong.

There’s a tiny problem with every ounce of force beyond that necessary to subdue a suspect being illegal.

So, just because you didn’t see the first blow, when the beating goes on and on, when the victim doesn’t respond to blows to the face and is lying in pool of blood, you lose your ability to say you didn’t know there was anything wrong with it.

Like I said above, we need to wait and see if 1) they cut some deal that drastically reduces the sentence, but lets them claim they punished them, or 2) if the prosecutor goes into court and just totally softballs it.

When the prosecutor starts going after these guys with a vengeance, then I’ll say “I didn’t expect that”.

In a similar set of circumstances, if a cop had crashed his car and died of his injuries while rushing to provide “back-up” the DA would file first-degree murder charges against the “unco-operative” suspect.

The best way to sum up my thoughts on this matter: I was hoping for more, but expected less. 15 years, and that’s if he’s convicted . . . what are the chances? And what are the chances that he serves even half of those 15 years if he’s convicted? The best we can hope for? Conviction, followed by jail time sufficient enough for him to be exposed to some serious ass-beatings . . . hopefully fatal. I expect the manslaughter conviction, no more than 5 years, with maybe 2 years total behind bars.

That is probably a good guess. If I were his attorney, I would offer a plea deal. Get the time down to less than ten years. He will probably get around five and be out within three. Of course he will be convicted felon with absolutely no employment prospects. And his time jail will be done in protective custody with mob rats and child molesters. Not enough true, but no picnic either.

Not so sure about that. “Angry cop beats mentally handicapped man to death” might just play very differently with a jury than “admitted pot smoker shoots innocent cop just for breaking down his door”. I’m not betting against conviction at this point.

Rodney King had just led them on a high-speed chase that involved helicopters and stuff. That, along with certain other factors that need not be named, probably bolstered the cops’ case in front of the jury. Not saying it’s right – I think those guys should be in prison to this day – but the two cases differ fundamentally, at least in the eyes of a jury being sweet-talked by a skilled attorney.

If a hypothetical DA decides to softpedal some hypothetical case there is nothing that can be done about it beyond hypothetically trying to hamstring his hypothetical political career (which might well simply mean he’ll be made a judge, hypothetically).

Real threats are not ideology, they are reality. I’ve had a gun pointed at me for trying to ask directions, had a friend beaten as a minor, had another friend have cops lie against him in court, have had a cop give me tickets for not having paperwork that I showed him.

I’ve also had cops save my ass.

My opinion? Still negative. Anyone at any time can have their lives ruined even if innocent. Doing their job and saving a few asses like mine doesn’t make up for it.

More like the rule of law advocates who understand that when a law gives a member of the government the power to commit acts that would be criminal if committed by a citizen, that that law is unjust. And when the justice system fails to deliver because the law is unjust, that the people have a duty to take justice into their own hands.

Yes, they’ve been charged. So what? My original point was that past experience demonstrates that, especially in a post 9/11 world where wearing a badge = super hero, that the chances of conviction with maximum jail time is practically nil. That’s unjust. So, to echo sarcasmic . . . He deserves MORE than what is coming to him, and it will be justice if he gets it.

the justice system (which is highly biased in law enforcements favor) will determine the guilt or innocence based on the evidence the cops managed not to hide. any conclusion reached outside this system is just crazy people talking jibberish.

The law gives you the power to take peoples’ property (stealing if done by a citizen) and initiate violence against them (assault if done by a citizen) when they have done nothing to you or another citizen. You know, victimless crime. Crimes against The State. Unjust laws. The only difference between you and a common thug is that there is nobody to ask for help when you take people’s shit and beat them into submission. I wouldn’t hate cops so much if you guys didn’t appear take so much smug enjoyment out of intimidating people into submitting to violations that would be criminal if done by a mere citizen.

The law gives you the power to take peoples’ property (stealing if done by a citizen) and initiate violence against them (assault if done by a citizen) when they have done nothing to you or another citizen. You know, victimless crime. Crimes against The State. Unjust laws. The only difference between you and a common thug is that there is nobody to ask for help when you take people’s shit and beat them into submission. I wouldn’t hate cops so much if you guys didn’t appear take so much smug enjoyment out of intimidating people into submitting to violations that would be criminal if done by a mere citizen.

The law gives you the power to take peoples’ property (stealing if done by a citizen) and initiate violence against them (assault if done by a citizen) when they have done nothing to you or another citizen. You know, victimless crime. Crimes against The State. Unjust laws. The only difference between you and a common thug is that there is nobody to ask for help when you take people’s shit and beat them into submission. I wouldn’t hate cops so much if you guys didn’t appear take so much smug enjoyment out of intimidating people into submitting to violations that would be criminal if done by a mere citizen.

The law gives you the power to take peoples’ property (stealing if done by a citizen) and initiate violence against them (assault if done by a citizen) when they have done nothing to you or another citizen. You know, victimless crime. Crimes against The State. Unjust laws. The only difference between you and a common thug is that there is nobody to ask for help when you take people’s shit and beat them into submission. I wouldn’t hate cops so much if you guys didn’t appear take so much smug enjoyment out of intimidating people into submitting to violations that would be criminal if done by a mere citizen.

Hey asswipe, I am actually pro-cop . . . when they’re not breaking the law. And that makes me pro rule of law. Except in cases where justice – the most critical component of the law – is unquestionably NOT served. Justice severed from the law is still justice, whereas law severed from justice is inherently unjust. Get it? What is more important? Justice, or the law?

But it’s not typical of commenters here. Most seem to simply want consequences for bad acts. Most distrust government and believe agents of the state using state authority given to them to deprive citizens of liberty is particularly odious as it smacks of tyranny, something America cannot abide.

And, frankly, you should pine for public trust. It would make your job easier.

Hey asswipe, I am actually pro-cop . . . when they’re not breaking the law. And that makes me pro rule of law. Except in cases where justice – the most critical component of the law – is unquestionably NOT served. Justice severed from the law is still justice, whereas law severed from justice is inherently unjust. Get it? What is more important? Justice, or the law?

I think I’m developing a liberals racist mind. When they said the one guy going in for murder out of all of those dudes was the one with a Hispanic name, I immediately thought, “Well boys, we’re not going to be able to get out of this one, so let’s minimize the damage and throw a spic under the bus. Maybe at least people will turn on him for not being fully white.”

The guineas don’t tend to all my home improvement and landscaping competently and at a competitive price, and provide me with dee-lisious food daily, because they’re all just lazy mobsters. I have a vested interest in keeping the latino population in the public’s good graces.

Actually, Jim, if you’re ever in Garland, there’s a halfway descent place called A Taste of Italy. I forget the cross streets, but it wasn’t bad when I went there a few years ago. There’s also a pretty badass pizza joint in the Shops at Legacy. Not fancy, just a good pizza joint.

Eh, I wouldn’t put anything past anybody. But yeah, I know; that’s why I was poking fun at myself and saying I thought I was developing the racist mind of a liberal, where everything that happens to anyone is seen through the prism of race. I was shocked to find that being my first thought *smacks self*.

again, we can devolve into the inevitable reasonoid response on every such thread “but the cops get special treatment and it’s so unfair waaaah”, but that’s been done. i’d rather discuss this case, then the endless meta-wanking

If the chief of police isn’t having his men refer an incident to the courts, then there aren’t going to be charges, are there?

There are two ways – that I know of – that a criminal prosecution starts. One is with a Grand Jury returning an indictment. The other occurs when the police refer evidence of a crime to the courts.

An irrationally combative mentally-ill homeless guy who dies from mechanical asphyxiation while resisting arrest in a fight that left two police officers injured, and there will be nothing more than a pro-forma investigation.

You know it, and I know it.

When you pretend otherwise, it fools no one and makes you look like an apologist for totalitarianism. You really should stop if you care about your reputation.

It’s done, rightly, in cases where an impartial jury cannot be impaneled in a location.

Take the Boxboro 6. The passions of the locals were so inflamed that there was very little likelihood of getting a jury free of people determined to ensure the niggers paid for their brutal assault on white womanhood.

People who are emotionally vested in a case make poor finders-of-fact and thus have no business being on a jury.

That’s the theory anyway. Like any system, the reality is often very different than the Platonic ideal.

Here’s a this-is-too-good-to-wait threadjack. It’s amateur hour again – this time at the UN. My first impression was that this had sort of the look of a photoshop but the pitying look on the face of the female diplomat behind him suggests it’s the real thing.

For the record- I want to see these guys (all six of them) put in prison with the general population, with no special treatment, privileges or protection.

Not because I want them to be beaten, or sodomized, or abused and dehumanized more than any other prisoner is abused and dehumanized; I want them to spend every day knowing they are no longer “more equal” than any of the other animals. And I want their friends and co-workers to know that, and conduct themselves accordingly.

That is what will happen. They won’t let them get raped in prison. The prison guards will take care of other cops. They will spend their lives in segregation with the rats and child molesters. But, the prison guards are the biggest petty assholes on earth. They may not let them get raped. But they will absolutely let them know they are no special anymore. I wouldn’t want to be them even if they are going to get off lightly.

The reason conditions in our prisons are what they are is because the good citizens of the nation can sleep soundly knowing that certain prisoners aren’t actually subjected to those conditions.

Frankly, the best thing we could do is have uniform conditions for all people sent to prison. Not minimum / medium / maximum security. No protective custody. ALL custody should be “protective”. When you make a man a ward of the state, the state should have the obligation to take responsibility for that man’s well-being.

If ALL criminals were in the same boat, maybe conditions would improve.

Sure fluffy, square that with your objection to the death penalty. How do you deter prisoners who have no hope of getting out of prison from victimizing other prisoners? The only way I know of is to lock them up in increasingly horrible conditions.

If we had a prison system where anyone who killed or raped another prisoner faced the death penalty, we would have a much more humane and just system.

That is actually not a bad idea. But people would have kittens over it. I would support corporal punishment in lieu of prison for some crimes. What good does it do to lock someone up where we have to pay to feed them and they can’t work to make restitution to the victims?

If you start by not locking up non-violent offenders subject to the drug war, you have alot less “victims” in prison. And then prisons are less crowded, which allows the “perpetrators” the anonymity to continue their abuse as blatantly and would allow guards more flexibility in isolating the absolutely rotten perps.

Ending the drug war would have so many benefits, its almost crazy to think that its still being prosecuted. But then again, we are a sick, sick nation right now that thinks there’s safety in war and prosperity in oppression.

That would certainly help. But even still there are lots of non violent people who need to be in prison. Thieves need to go to jail too. And regardless of the drug war, you are always going to have people who are too dangerous to ever be let out into society. Without a death penalty how do you deter these people from committing bad acts in prison? The way we do it now is to lock them up in increasingly horrible conditions or just let them victimize others. That is a pretty awful solution. Better would be to institute the death penalty for these people or maybe extreme corporal punishment.

There may be a handful of people in the world that are too dangerous to keep in prison for the rest of their lives, probably because they are twisted and genius, but most killers are just physically dangerous and not mentally. Those can be isolated from prison population as necessary. The majority of other violent offenders are not continuous threats and would be able to be monitored more closely with small prison populations.

As for theives, fraudsters, con-men and other non-violent assholes, smaller prison populations mean they don’t have to be housed with the violent rapists, murders and the like because there’s room for them at the minimum security prisons.

I’m not saying it solves everything or that there’s a perfect way to contain violent awful people without really awful punishment. All I’m saying is that we might be able to do better by reconsidering locking up the amount of people that we do.

Police truly concerned about the welfare of our society need to stand up against the wrongs of the system instead of excusing it “as part of their job”.

Just think:

No more no-knock drug raids, no more cops shot through doors of scared home owners No more random drug stops, no more violence escalation or crooked cop shakedowns No more drug war, more local cooperation against violent drug dealers (and eventually eliminating violent drug dealers)

Cops can go back to protecting people from violence, coercion, larceny and the like and be closer to their communities without the drug war. Bad cops won’t have such a wide ability to blackmail citizens.

OK. The only objection I have against the death penalty for someone who has been convicted of having taken another’s life; is that it doesn’t give you the opportunity to correct your mistake (if one is later determined to have been made).

What an excellent question. I don’t know, but classic felony murder would mean that everyone involved in the comission of a felony that resulted in death would get, I believe, first degree murder. The felony provides the necessary intent, is the theory.

And, it catches EVERYONE involved in the underlying felony, whether they were directly involved in the death or not.

Wiki tells me that CA law says any death caused during the commission of, among other things, mayhem, is first degree murder.

Sounds to me like an indictment for mayhem could have been handed down in this case. Its a little hard to say, because the victim fucking died before you could say for sure he had been “permanently disfigured or disabled.”

So, why not mayhem and first degree murder charges for Cuccinelli and Ramos?

What an excellent question. I don’t know, but classic felony murder would mean that everyone involved in the comission of a felony that resulted in death would get, I believe, first degree murder. The felony provides the necessary intent, is the theory.

And, it catches EVERYONE involved in the underlying felony, whether they were directly involved in the death or not.

Wiki tells me that CA law says any death caused during the commission of, among other things, mayhem, is first degree murder.

Sounds to me like an indictment for mayhem could have been handed down in this case. Its a little hard to say, because the victim fucking died before you could say for sure he had been “permanently disfigured or disabled.”

So, why not mayhem and first degree murder charges for Cuccinelli and Ramos?

I just saw the first show of the new Opeth tour and was a bit disappointed by the absence of any very heavy songs. All straight singing and like 5 acoustic songs in a set that wasn’t much longer than an hour. Had they announced beforehand that it would be a pussified tour? And Katatonia sucked. Opeth’s performance was still very good, but not what I expected and a bit disappointing.

My only hope is that this will mirror Damnation in that not only was it a non-metal album, but the corresponding tour was similar to the current one in which there were NO heavy tracks played. The big difference is that Damnation was AWESOME while Heritage sucks balls.

It’s not the Yes impersonation that is that bad. It’s the Rainbow impersonation (“Slither” is truly fucking terrible) and pointless noodling and use of spooky atmospherics in place of structure and melody that goes on from the horribly disjointed outro to the already fucking terrible “Slither” through “Famine” that really makes this album weak as fuck. “The Lines in My Hand” is a reasonably good hat tip to late 70s Rush, but if I want to hear late 70s Rush, I’ll put on some fucking late 70s Rush. There are only 3 pretty good songs on the album, and one that I would say could probably fit on other Opeth albums. Only for one or two fleeting moments can one say to oneself “This rocks!” (which shouldn’t be falsely correlated with hard or heavy – plenty of not heavy or hard stuff rocks). There is really nothing on this album that can appraoch anything on ANY of their other albums, particularly post-Still Life.

Unfortunately I’m devoted to 3 shows already (Louisville, Nashville, and Orlando), though I’ll only be going to 2, and the second only because I’ve already invested hundreds of dollars in to going and meeting a buddy of mine (I’ve already paid for flight and hotel). I’m skipping Nashville because there’s no way that I’m driving 7 hours roundtrip + gas + food + lodging to see this fucking setlist.

Opeth went from a band that I would buy anything they made sound-unheard (as I did with Heritage in both preordered albums – I ordered the vinyl box set, as well as concert tix with signed copies of the CD – and live tix to 3 fucking shows) to a band that I might buy after I pirate it to make sure it doesn’t suck. And all in 5 listening sessions and 1 glance at the setlist for the tour.

That’s fucking blasphemy!! I saw Katatonia in a dingy ass bar in south Louisville about a year ago (maybe 150 in attendance), and it was one of the very best concert experiences I’ve ever had. Shit was awesome.

I hadn’t heard much of Katatonia before. And I will back off a bit on the “sucked”. Their sound quality and performance was excellent; they are definitely telented performers, and I thought the guitar playing was very good. But I found the songs boring and all quite similar. As I don’t know much about them, I couldn’t tell you any song titles. Maybe I’ll give their albums a chance.

No. But being that I’m a nerd with no life and I’ve been highly anticipating both this album and tour, I checked as the show was in progress, and watched in slow motion as Opeth made sure that their tampon was in correctly.

There’s a lot of ways this could still turn to injustice but as a first step, I have to say good job Orange County DA. I could have wished for a little bit more, but this is FAR more than I expected. If police misconduct was ALWAYS handled like this (and assuming it doesn’t quietly get negotiated away), I would feel better about the system as a whole.

it’s really almost certainly going to be up to whether the defendants want to accept a plea or not. that’s almost always the case.

from a game theory perspective, the prosecutor knows that absolute certainty of punishment/guilty verdict (plea) trumps (whatever certainty there can be) about 12 individuals com9ing to a conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt.

I used to know a good cop. He filed a complaint aginast a couple bad cops in his department. He received retaliation in the form of harrassment, even from a neighboring department. He got pulled over on the way to work, in his patrol car, by an officer of another department who happened to be the former roommate of one of the guys he reported. The good cop recieved a reprimant for being late to work because of that.

Then one night he pulled over a stolen vehicle with four people inside. He called for back-up, and it never came. Three of the people in the car ran and got away. He was reprimanded again for failing to call for backup. His union rep advised him to quit before they could build a case to fire him, so he could at least get hired with another agency. So, he quit, but every other agency he interviewed with would call his old captain, and then tell him they weren’t interested. The last time I saw him he was waiting tables.

I don’t give a shit what they say. I care what they do, or rather what they don’t do. I care that they allow their comrades to beat someone to death, and do nothing. I care that they see comrades engaging in criminal behavior and, unless it’s caught on civilian camera and brought to the press, do nothing. They can talk all they want about these creeps being charged for murder, but deep down they know that they were one bad day away from doing the same thing.

So they only prosecute cops “when necessary” to quiet public outrage. Gothcha!

Unfortunately, that’s exactly what I read too. They only do it when necessary to quiet an impending public outcry. They don’t want justice, they simply want to placate, and do so via the minimum necessary to get the job done, double standard be damned.

It’s not a rubbish interpretation Dunphy. He came out and said in plain English that his motivation for filing charges was the public outrage. It doesn’t mean other prosecutors elsewhere wouldn’t charge officers for misconduct without public outrage. But you can’t argue that this one would… he tells you so himself. He actually seems kinda proud of it, for some reason.

I have personal friends who work in internal affairs for one of the largest police departments in the country. They prosecute officers that you’ve never heard of all the time. But mostly for things that don’t have anything to do with the line of duty – like shaking down drug dealers or raping prostitutes, stuff like that. When it comes to official duties it is usually administrative stuff like meeting up with a girlfriend at a motel while on the clock. Stupid, but not threatening to the public. (for some strange reason the officer’s boss can’t just fire him in those situations, they have to pay a team to do a full investigation and surveillance, the whole expensive 9 yards) A questionable shooting or beating? That would be pretty rare. They normally circle the wagons in those cases – mostly from a sense of “that coulda happened to any one of us”.

Sadly, a major part of their cases involve things like drug use by officers. Another place where legalization would allow the police to focus on something that actually impacts the public instead of off-duty recreational activity. I’d much rather see the police held to high standards on the initiation of force and searches and seizures than worry about who is smoking hash with his gay lover in their off hours.

And there was NEVER any indication whatsoever in his previous behavior on the job that something like this might happen.

“We were shocked- SHOCKED!- when we heard about this. He was always completely respectful of the rights of civilians, and a stickler for procedure. He was the guy who would give you the benefit of the doubt, and bend over backwards to help anybody who needed it.”

Here is why I find this inadequate. Kelly Thomas dies as a result of police action, and there is no credible investigation until after a month of public outcry? This is not criminal negligence? There are no legal consequences to supervisors or department investigators?

This is so much why some people do not trust law enforcement to police themselves.

In fairness, it happened on July 5th and we have an indictment on September 21st. That really is pretty quick for our justice system. Dunphy has a point. They indicted these guys. For once someone did the right thing.

I don’t dispute that. But that’s the Orange County District Attorney’s investigation. Fullerton PD stated they were conducting an internal investigation before that, which I also don’t dispute.

Almost a month after the murder, and some time after Ron Thomas released the infamous cell phone picture of his son, news media started making public records requests. At that time they were told two unnamed officers had been placed on paid leave. It doesn’t appear to me that any real investigation was taking place until the media asked questions, and they didn’t do that until they saw the picture.

I admit, maybe I’m wrong. Maybe it’s standard operating procedure to have video evidence of a crime, have the criminal standing in front of them, and continue to pay said criminal and let him go on his merry way while they investigate for evidence more compelling than the video evidence they possess.

I’ll believe that this DA gives an actual shit if he alters the charge to 1st degree murder, or, much worse but satisfactory given the difficulty of prosecution, if he carries through his current charges to the end without accepting any deals.

These suffocation deaths happen all the time and are completely preventable. DAs routinely charge regular citizens with manslaughter when it occurs. Why are the police not held to a higher standard? Where are the constitutional challenges to this lethal form of restraint?

I don’t understand why they don’t charge the two out the ying yang including first degree murder and the lesser includes. Or is it that during jury instructions that the State could include the lesser offenses, I.e. 2nd degree murder or manslughter?

First degree murder is a hard thing to prove. There are some pretty outrageous cases out there where a guy beat someone to death and didn’t get first degree murder because they could never proved he intended to kill with any one blow.

1st, I disagree that there isn’t enough evidence. Like what was pointed out upthread, it does’t take very much “pre” to get 1st degree murder.

Secondly there is a strategic reason to charge 1st degree murder. We all know that DA’s over charge like fuck in order to get the most out of the eventual plea offer that gets made to hang over the defendant’s head.

And it is wrong when they do that. I understand you desire to see the cops get screwed just like the average person. But, the solution is to stop over charging in all cases not demand it just to make two wrongs.

RC, I believe you’re wrong about that. Under the merger doctrine, lesser-included offenses merge into the higher-level charge and can’t be used as predicate offenses to support a felony murder charge.

Let me give you an example. If I accidentally kill someone while robbing a bank, I can be charged with felony murder, even though I didn’t intend to hurt anyone. The bank robbery is crime is otherwise unrelated to the homicide but is causally connected.

But assault, or the crime of mayhem that you bring up, are components of the bodily harm that results in the homicide that is the top-level charge. They are acts that are implied in the homicide itself and can’t be used to “charge up” a manslaughter or negligent homicide case into felony murder. That is, unless California law differs dramatically from the norm.

Let me put it more simply. Under your theory, RC, almost every single manslaughter or negligent homicide case could be magically turned into a felony murder case, since there is usually an assault & battery component that goes into a homicide. That is clearly not what the existing law says, nor should it be.

Ramos made a deliberate showing of putting on latex gloves in front of Kelly Thomas. He stood over Kelly Thomas and repeatedly said to put his hands on his knees. Thomas would put his hands back and fold his legs. Ramos stood over kelly thomas with a pair of latex gloves and he made a demonstration while he was standing over kelly thomas of putting on those gloves in a menacing manner. When he put the gloves on, he ordered Kelly Thomas, “put your hands on your f-ing knees.” He leaned over Thomas in a menacing way. He made two fists. He put his fist in Thomas’s face and said, “See my fists? They’re getting ready to F you up.”

To be a DA you must be after convictions. It doesn’t matter if you convict the guilty party, you need convictions. A high conviction rate raises the chances of moving up in the political world. Now if the guilty party is a member of government, or politically connected, your job changes. It is now to protect this person from conviction. They’re on your team. You protect your team.

AS SOON AS RAMOS IS BAILED OUT BY THE POLICE UNION. RAMOS WILL JUMP BAIL AND HIDE OUT IN MEXICO UNTIL THIS IS SQUASHED. THE COPS WILL BE OUT IN FORCE IN FULLERTON SHAKING DOWN THE CITIZENS FOR BAIL MONEY AND REVENGE.

Someone in this thread. Made a comment that charges were brought against the officers. IJust to make sure it is understood. Charge have been brought against the officers but until they are proven guilty it is still up in the air. Keep fighting that the officers WILL BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE