15. Path Knowledge It is followed immediately by knowledge that abides in that same Nibbana, which is void of formations since it is the cessation of them. This is called "path knowledge."[43] It is also called "purification by knowledge and vision."

16. Fruition Knowledge That again is immediately followed by knowledge that belongs to the final stage and continues in the course of its predecessor. It abides in that same Nibbana, which is void of formations since it is the cessation of them. This is called "fruition knowledge."

the next stage, knowledge of path and result (maggaphala-nana). In practice, what happens is that the meditator is practicing, every aspect of his meditation is subtle, clear and bright, and then suddenly there is a sense of falling-into (knowledge of insight leading to emergence) and then the lights go out. There is a momentary sense of nothingness, and then the lights come on. If the meditator checks the watch, he realises some time has passed - depending on the strength of his concentration, this could be anything from a few minutes to a few dayshttp://www.buddhanet.net/knowledg.htm

There are other descriptions from masters like Ven Matara Nanarama as well. It is also mentioned in the abhidhamma.

rowyourboat wrote: and then suddenly there is a sense of falling-into (knowledge of insight leading to emergence) and then the lights go out. There is a momentary sense of nothingness, and then the lights come on.

Who wrote this?

If this is true, then I must be at least a strean winner, and I have had a teacher tell me as much about the pitch black stuff and my experiemce of it, but the problem is I don't buy it.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.People live in one another’s shelter.

tiltbillings wrote:If this is true, then I must be at least a strean winner, and I have had a teacher tell me as much about the pitch black stuff and my experiemce of it, but the problem is I don't buy it.

Yeah, blackout cessations are just another passing experience (or non-experience). Just one more thing to be let go of. Certainly not a sign of stream entry. There is no "silver bullet" or "panacea" experience. Life-long dedication and unwavering commitment to practice is what is required.

rowyourboat wrote: and then suddenly there is a sense of falling-into (knowledge of insight leading to emergence) and then the lights go out. There is a momentary sense of nothingness, and then the lights come on.

Who wrote this?

If this is true, then I must be at least a strean winner, and I have had a teacher tell me as much about the pitch black stuff and my experiemce of it, but the problem is I don't buy it.

rowyourboat wrote:.....If you develop a samadhi, based on a samatha process...........If you develop vipassana, and this process...I am hesitant to write any further, but you must understand the process of vipassana as seen here:

so according to you the pitch black emptiness is a sign of attainment ?

is pitch black emptiness comparable to the state of unconsciouness ? (sorry just a wondering question)the cessation of consciousness seems point to nibbana, it is not the same as unconsciousness, but can one be misled ?.

anyway, the point is the state called "pitch black emptiness" understood by different people as not good for insight progress as reported is previous posts:

...After hitting this state several nights in a row, I told Ajaan Fuang about it, and his first question was, "Do you like it?" My answer was "No," because I felt a little groggy the first time I came out. "Good," he said. "As long as you don't like it, you're safe. Some people really like it and think it's nibbana or cessation. Actually, it's the state of non-perception (asaññi-bhava). It's not even right concentration, because there's no way you can investigate anything in there to gain any sort of discernment. .....

Jack Kornfield's reflections:In Mahasi’s model, enlightenment—or at least stream-entry, the first taste of nirvana—comes in the form of a cessation of experience, arising out of the deepest state of concentration and attention, when the body and mind are dissolved, the experience of the ordinary senses ceases, and we rest in perfect equanimity. We open into that which is unconditioned, timeless, and liberating: nirvana. Like Zen satori, this moment brings a whole new way of knowing. But there are a lot of questions around this kind of moment. Sometimes it seems to have enormously transformative effects on people. Other times people have this moment of experience and aren’t really changed by it at all. Sometimes they’re not even sure what happened.

Alexei wrote : Ven. Pa-Auk Sayadaw calls a similar state as "falling into bhavanga":......Both types of concentration have the pañibhàga-nimitta as their object. The only difference between them is that in access concentration the jhàna factors are not fully developed. For this reason bhavanga mind states still occur, and one can fall into bhavanga (life-continuum consciousness). The meditator will say that everything stopped, and may even think it is Nibbàna. In reality the mind has not stopped, but the meditator is just not sufficiently skilled to discern this, because the bhavanga mind states are very subtle.[...]The meditator will say that everything stopped, or may think it is Nibbàna, and say: ‘I knew nothing then.’ If he practises in this way, he can eventually stay in bhavanga for a long time. In any kind of practice, be it good or bad, one will achieve one’s aim, if one tries again and again. ‘Practice makes perfect.’ In this case too, if he tries again and again, in the same way, he may fall into bhavanga for a long time.[...]If a meditator thinks it is Nibbàna, this idea is a very big ‘rock’ blocking the way to Nibbàna. If he does not remove this big ‘rock’, he cannot attain Nibbàna. Why does this idea occur? Many meditators think that a disciple (sàvaka) cannot know mentality-materiality as taught by the Buddha. So they do not think it is necessary to develop sufficiently deep concentration in order to discern mentality-materiality, and their causes, as taught by the Buddha. Thus their concentration is only weak, and bhavanga mind states still occur, because the jhàna factors too are weak. The concentration cannot be maintained for a long time. If one purposely practises to fall into bhavanga, one will achieve one’s aim, but it is not Nibbàna.

In any case I would prefer not to have strong opinion that such unconscious states are nibbana, but just keep on practising (and not only in a formal way). It seems to be a "safe bet".

So I went to a Mahasi monastery and trained with a famous monk, Asabha Sayadaw, who was quite skillful in teaching meditation but nevertheless turned out to be a very problematic teacher. I began very ardently, the way young men do, sitting and walking twenty hours a day, with minimum sleep. I did this for nearly a year and a half. With his instruction, all kinds of cool things began to happen. My body would dissolve into light, and I had all kinds of classic insights into emptiness, just like in the old texts. My progress in insight grew, and my understanding of impermanence and emptiness deepened, and I thought, “Wow, I know this is what the Buddha meant.” But then I’d look out from the window of my cottage — he gave me the “nice” cottage near his, because I was a Westerner—and there he would be, Asabha Sayadaw, sitting with his feet up on the table, smoking his cigar and reading the paper, belching and yelling at the gardeners because they were doing the wrong thing, and throwing rocks at the dogs to get them to stay out of his garden. He obviously had deep meditation experiences, but by temperament and character he was a very coarse and, in many ways, not a terribly kind person. So I would be getting this refined meditation instruction from this teacher who really knew how to train the mind, then I’d look at him and say to myself, “Oh my God, even though I’m grateful, I don’t want to be like this person.”

What I saw reflected a dilemma inherent in the models themselves. The model of intensive meditation practice is that you seek to have a certain profound experience — stream-entry, a taste of nirvana — and the idea is that it transforms you forever, and indeed there is some basis for this in the Buddhist texts. In this model (I’m not going to say whether it’s true or not. I’ll leave that to your own experience), people were taught that they could have a profound opening to nirvana, be assured of beautiful rebirths, and then feel like they were basically saved and would never need to do retreat practice again, or at least not very much.

It isn’t a question of thinking in terms of becoming a stream-enterer or becoming an arahant, or wondering, ‘Have I attained stream-entry yet? Am I a non-returner? Will I ever become an arahant?’ This is the worldly mind grasping the concepts. Sometimes you hear people say, ‘This monk ― he’s a stream-enterer!’ and everyone goes ‘Ohhh! a stream-enterer!’ ‘And that one’s an arahant.’ ‘Wow, an arahant!’ (that’s like superman).

But the Pali Canon refers to these Four Stages in connection with the Ten Fetters, these Ten Fetters which I have found to be a very valuable reference point in relation to the Four Stages. The point is, it is easy to conceptualize stream-entry as some kind of attainment. The ego grasps the concept and the Western ego in particular tends to want to become what it grasps, looking upon such things as kind of achievements or goals.

If you have invested many years as a monk practising meditation, you want something to prove it has been worth it, you know! ‘Give me a title. After all these years I don’t know whether I’m a stream-enterer, or not!’ It is by investigating and recognizing the first three of the Ten Fetters, however, that you come to recognize stream-entry, and stream-entry is the path.

rowyourboat wrote:Aggregates cease/stop arising/emptiness ensues/consciousness ceases/'pitch black emptiness' for a moment (or two)(this is the culmination of the vipassana practice mentioned above. Detachment is at its highest. Insight/vijja is at its strongest. The lack of avijja ie- the cessation of avijja leads to the ...the cesation of consciousness as per paticcasamuppada)The object of meditation (and everything else) vanishes.

This type of blackout cessation is experienced by all sorts of yogis including those practicing non-Buddhist systems. Thus, it has nothing to do with the correct engagement of vipassanā. The cessation of unsatisfactoriness (dukkhanirodha) is the cessation of craving (taṇhā), not the cessation of phenomena. DN 22:

And what is the noble truth of the cessation of stress? The remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving.

What craving? Craving sensual pleasure (kāmataṇhā), craving existence (bhavataṇhā), and craving non-existence (vibhavataṇhā). The cessation of unsatisfactoriness is the cessation of very specific fetters pertaining to each of the four noble paths. There is no canonical support for your interpretation of nibbāna or saupādisesa nibbānadhātu (nibbāna element with fuel remaining).

rowyourboat wrote:Nirodha samapatti/Attainment of cessation This is a special state of cessation or nibbana which can be attained by Non-returners or Arahanths who have developed the formless jhanas. That is having done previous vipassana, thereby destroying the fetters of craving and aversion these ariyas are bound to samsara in a very 'weak' way- hence when they attempt to go into a higher jhana, than that of the highest arupa jhana, they end up in Nirodha- complete sensory cessation. Since each succeeding jhanic level of is more refined than the earlier/grosser ones, it stands to reason that the most subtle, is the highest bliss. ie Nibbana is the highest bliss.

Again, your interpretation isn't supported by the Pāli Tipiṭaka or even by the commentarial tradition. In keeping with the Kathāvatthu, the Visuddhimagga has to maintain that the cessation of apperception and feeling, which is also called cessation attainment (nirodhasamāpatti) is neither supramundane nor not-conditioned (asaṅkhata). Visuddhimagga 23.52:

As to the question: Is the attainment of cessation formed or unformed, etc.? It is not classifiable as formed or unformed, mundane or supramundane. Why? Because it has no individual essence. But since it comes to be attained by one who attains it, it is therefore permissible to say that it is produced, not unproduced.

It isn’t a question of thinking in terms of becoming a stream-enterer or becoming an arahant, or wondering, ‘Have I attained stream-entry yet? Am I a non-returner? Will I ever become an arahant?’ This is the worldly mind grasping the concepts. Sometimes you hear people say, ‘This monk ― he’s a stream-enterer!’ and everyone goes ‘Ohhh! a stream-enterer!’ ‘And that one’s an arahant.’ ‘Wow, an arahant!’ (that’s like superman).

But the Pali Canon refers to these Four Stages in connection with the Ten Fetters, these Ten Fetters which I have found to be a very valuable reference point in relation to the Four Stages. The point is, it is easy to conceptualize stream-entry as some kind of attainment. The ego grasps the concept and the Western ego in particular tends to want to become what it grasps, looking upon such things as kind of achievements or goals.

If you have invested many years as a monk practising meditation, you want something to prove it has been worth it, you know! ‘Give me a title. After all these years I don’t know whether I’m a stream-enterer, or not!’ It is by investigating and recognizing the first three of the Ten Fetters, however, that you come to recognize stream-entry, and stream-entry is the path.

I always cherish Ajahn Sumedho's words. Here too he makes a helpful point. There's just one thing. As followers of the Buddha's teachings, it seems we're a bit caught between a rock and a hard place. On the one hand, we read that unless we reach "stream-entry" we might be reborn in miserable states. Buuuut, who can tell us whether we've reached stream-entry or not? Isn't it somewhat important to know? If I could go to hell if I haven't reached it yet, for Pete's sake?? (St. Peter, guardian of heaven's gate...) Anyway, back in the Buddha's day, there did appear to be an evaluation of the stages by the Buddha and the great disciples. But today it seems nobody is going to do that job for us. Except possibly some Burmese-lineage teachers? But what if we don't have that sort of teacher? And even if we do, what if they're wrong? What if they misjudge? Isn't there some clear canonical standard we can use for ourselves?

I do take comfort in the teachings that both "faith-followers" and "dhamma-followers" (who are on the path to stream-entry, as I understand, but not stream-enterers yet) are assured of stream entry at the latest by the time of death. So we've got that at least.

Other than that, the powerful arguments on both "sides" here (maybe they are only apparently different sides) makes me want to pull my hair out a bit. But that's ok, my stubbornness keeps me going.

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

rowyourboat wrote: and then suddenly there is a sense of falling-into (knowledge of insight leading to emergence) and then the lights go out. There is a momentary sense of nothingness, and then the lights come on.

Who wrote this?

If this is true, then I must be at least a strean winner, and I have had a teacher tell me as much about the pitch black stuff and my experiemce of it, but the problem is I don't buy it.

Why not? Why didn't you find the teacher's determination convincing?

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

kirk5a wrote:Buuuut, who can tell us whether we've reached stream-entry or not? Isn't it somewhat important to know?... Isn't there some clear canonical standard we can use for ourselves?

Of course there is. The canon tells us that it is the cutting off and full extinguishment (parinibbāna) of the first three fetters. The Paṭisambhidāmagga:

How is it that the discernment of contemplating what is cut off is gnosis of liberation (vimuttiñāṇa)?

By the stream-entry path the following imperfections are completely cut off in his own mind: (1) identity-view (sakkāyadiṭṭhi), (2) doubt (vicikicchā), (3) mistaken adherence to rules and duty (sīlabbataparāmāsa), (4) the underlying tendency of views (diṭṭhānusaya), (5) the underlying tendency of doubt (vicikicchānusaya). Mind is liberated, completely liberated from these five imperfections with their modes of obsession.

How is it that the discernment of the termination of occurrence in one who is fully aware is gnosis of full extinguishment (parinibbāna ñāṇa)?

Through the stream-entry path he terminates identity view, doubt, and mistaken adherence to rules and duty.... This discernment of the termination of occurrence in one who is fully aware is gnosis of full extinguishment....

He causes the cessation of identity view, doubt, and mistaken adherence to rules and duty through the stream-entry path.

rowyourboat wrote: and then suddenly there is a sense of falling-into (knowledge of insight leading to emergence) and then the lights go out. There is a momentary sense of nothingness, and then the lights come on.

Who wrote this?

If this is true, then I must be at least a strean winner, and I have had a teacher tell me as much about the pitch black stuff and my experiemce of it, but the problem is I don't buy it.

Why not? Why didn't you find the teacher's determination convincing?

Though what I described to the teacher was in the context of vipassana practice, the experience of the rise and fall of what I was experiencing, particularly in terms of the "falling" away of experience. It was when the final bit experience seemingly fell away, nothing arising, leaving me in a with a period of just "being there" -- no arising of anything through the sense doors, no thought, no anything, just "being there."

The teacher said a bunch of stuff ending with: "You are now a stream-winner." My reply was: "No, I am not." I pointed out to him that this nothing more than an artifact of concentration and that I used to have the exactly same sort of experience when doing prayers as a Catholic as a kid.

That was in the early 80's, and in the intervening years, I can say that my experiences have proved me to be correct. I find it really problematic trying to tie awakening to these sorts of meditative experiences. At the very worst you end up with “arahants” who get angry, have sex, and in general suffer. And it is worth keeping in mind that anyone who would self-proclaim ariya status and jhana mastery should be regarded politely, but not as credible in those terms. I have yet to meet in person or on-line anyone who has self-proclaimed such status of themselves as being credible in those terms. It is all to easy to fool oneself with the safety of certitude.

While the maps of vipassana can be useful in a general sort of way, there is a real danger in trying to make one's experiences conform to them. It is all too easy after a certain level of experience to do just that, which is also a danger of jhana.

Geoff/Ñāṇa’s posts make it quite clear from a textual stand point that such “winking out” experiences are not necessary or even necessarily what some claim them to be. At their best such experience may indicate, for some, a certain level of experience, but even so, they are simply stuff of which one will need to let go.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.People live in one another’s shelter.

The experience of nibbana at the first stage does not entail any ceasing of the khandhas. In fact they arise and cease as always but citta momentarily contacts nibbana ( which is the element which doesn't arise and thus doesn't cease), after that other processes occur all entailing rise and fall. It is a high level of wisdom and obviously very different from something as deluding as a moment of pure ignorance ( like a momentary idea of nothing appearing)

This is from the theravda perspective and is not me making any boast - I haven't personally experienced nibbana - in case one of the moderators is going to again ask me whether i claim some high attainment like a stage of vipassana.

robertk wrote:The experience of nibbana at the first stage does not entail any ceasing of the khandhas. In fact they arise and cease as always but citta momentarily contacts nibbana ( which is the element which doesn't arise and thus doesn't cease), after that other processes occur all entailing rise and fall.

Source for this? And where is this nibbana element which contacted?

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.People live in one another’s shelter.

robertk wrote:The experience of nibbana at the first stage does not entail any ceasing of the khandhas. In fact they arise and cease as always but citta momentarily contacts nibbana ( which is the element which doesn't arise and thus doesn't cease), after that other processes occur all entailing rise and fall.

robertk wrote:The experience of nibbana at the first stage does not entail any ceasing of the khandhas. In fact they arise and cease as always but citta momentarily contacts nibbana ( which is the element which doesn't arise and thus doesn't cease), after that other processes occur all entailing rise and fall.

Source for this? And where is this nibbana element which contacted?

Theravada Abhidhamma, f.e. as summarized by van Gorkom.

Which Abhidhamma texts?

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.People live in one another’s shelter.

As I said you can read the summary in van Gorkoms Abhidhamma in Daily life, starting @ chapter 23.Nibbana[-dhamma] is a synonym in that context for asankhatta-dhamma which you can find f.e. in Dhammasangani at many places, usually translated as "uncompounded element".

Akuma wrote:As I said you can read the summary in van Gorkoms Abhidhamma in Daily life, starting @ chapter 23.Nibbana[-dhamma] is a synonym in that context for asankhatta-dhamma which you can find f.e. in Dhammasangani at many places, usually translated as "uncompounded element".

And what does "uncompounded element" mean? Does it exist out there somewhere?

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.People live in one another’s shelter.

Akuma wrote:As I said you can read the summary in van Gorkoms Abhidhamma in Daily life, starting @ chapter 23.Nibbana[-dhamma] is a synonym in that context for asankhatta-dhamma which you can find f.e. in Dhammasangani at many places, usually translated as "uncompounded element".

And what does "uncompounded element" mean? Does it exist out there somewhere?

My personal opinion on that questions the basic assumption of Abhidharma that cittas must have objects. In addition I think that the abhidhammic notion of sequential, momentary moments of awareness which - in Theravada - cognize single objects is maybe useless to explain the moment of realisation but for completeness [the nibbana-dhamma] had to be included.

Akuma wrote:As I said you can read the summary in van Gorkoms Abhidhamma in Daily life, starting @ chapter 23.Nibbana[-dhamma] is a synonym in that context for asankhatta-dhamma which you can find f.e. in Dhammasangani at many places, usually translated as "uncompounded element".

And what does "uncompounded element" mean? Does it exist out there somewhere?

My personal opinion on that questions the basic assumption of Abhidharma that cittas must have objects. In addition I think that the abhidhammic notion of sequential, momentary moments of awareness which - in Theravada - cognize single objects is maybe useless to explain the moment of realisation but for completeness [the nibbana-dhamma] had to be included.

Has it ever occured to you that what you said here is both bone dry and really does not say anything? Give me the suttas that deal with real life.

There is, however, an easy answer to my question, even from an Abhidhamma point of view.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.People live in one another’s shelter.