Since the bass and Clave have a relevance for the percussionists. I'm bringing this subject to this forum...Since the mid 1800's the musicians in the Orquestras Tipicas in Cuba find out the more dynamic interaction of the Bass, when being played with the fingers instead of the bow,(this observation was later incorporated iduring the Rag/Time and Jazz).At the begining the musical phrase of the bass was simple,marking what it could be the 1,2,and 3 beat of the 4/4 time signature,later with the incorporation of the "Cinquillo into the Danzon,(what it was called Cake Walk in New Orleans),it was modified,and later the musical phrase of both, the Bass and Piano,would become more sophisticated in relation to the musical skils of the players...in the Habana,the Son/Genre was modified,(with the leadership of Ignacio Pineiro),in its lyrics,harmony and structuration of the songs in..The Clave was incorporated into the Guaguanco from the 'Coros de Clave',(it was their time signatue),later introduce in the 'Trios 0f Guitars', Sextet and Conjuntos,and the musical phrase would be builded around it,(Clave)...But ater,(in Cuba),the Bells replaced the Claves as time keeper during the development of new musical/genres like, Changui,Guaracha,Mambo,Cha-Cha-Cha,Pilon,Dengue,Bata-Cha,etc..Now with the development of the Jam/Block a new attention to the Clave is taking place with Timbaleros which could play the Clave,and at the same time performing the Cascareo,(on the side of the Timbales),or the Timbales Bells Riff.Dr. Zaragemca

zaragemca wrote:.But ater,(in Cuba),the Bells replaced the Claves as time keeper during the development of new musical/genres like, Changui,Guaracha,Mambo,Cha-Cha-Cha,Pilon,Dengue,Bata-Cha,etc..

Zaragemca,Are you referring to the folkloric changui from Guantanamo, the ancestor of modern son? Clave is not an element of changui. perhaps you meant Elio Reve's modern son-based music which he called "changui"?-David

zaragemca wrote:Saludos, Changui is not the ancestor of the modern Son...The Danzon is...

sorry Zaragemca, but you are absolutely wrong about this. The son predates Danzón by several decades and was born in the eastern end of the island ("Oriente"). There are references of son going back to the mid-1800's. Changui is the oldest known form of son, (or son prototype if you prefer). The first danzón was composed in Matanzas in 1879. Nearly every time the danzon (and its descendants) was modernized. it involved borrowing elements from son. -David

David the only thing which predate the Danzon are the Bolero and the ContraDance,(which is from were the Danzon evolved),all the structuration of what could be called Son,took place in the Habana,what did evolve in Oriente, and was brought to Occidente was 'La Decima' and the 'Punto Guajiro',.The Danzon, (as for that name), evolved in 1879, but there were in Cuba Orquestas Tipicas since 1800's,.. In 1824 and Orquesta Tipica from Cuba came to New Orleans already, the point is that at that time the music from Cuba was called 'Habaneras'.(but they were Danzas,ContraDanzas,Boleros,Waltz,Mazurkas,etc.Dr. Zaragemca

Zaragemca,I agree with the general point of your last post. However, danzón and son are two separate branches from the same Afro-Cuban tree. In other words, they were born and evolved separately until the early 20th Century when the son traveled to Havana from the Oriente.

The French contradanza was "Cubanized" in the 1800's, resulting in the danza, later the Habanera and finally the danzón. Son was not a part of that lineage. It evolved separately on the other end of the island and came from a lower economic demographic.

We can still observe these two branches in Cuban popular music (or "salsa" if you prefer) with the string-based charangas and the horn-based son conjuntos.-David

Brother David,I never said that the Son and Danzon did grow toguether,neither I said that the Son was part of what it was called 'Habanera',(I especifically point out the genres for accuracy)...Habanera is not an specific genre of music,(that's the way they called (out side of Cuba), what was coming from there),but the name Habanera was not of used inside Cuba...And again what came from the Oriente was the "Punto Guajiro,and 'La Decima', the whole structuration of the Son,(in its Lyrics,Harmony,Percussion,and Integration of the musical instruments which did define it), took place in Habana....The Danzon took from the Son the dynamics,and singing,(becoming a Danzonete),...The Son took from the Orquestras Tipicas, the structuration,the harmony,the instruments,(Bass,Trumpet,Clarinet,and later the piano,and Timbales,etc.).Dr. Zaragemca

zaragemca wrote:Changui is not the ancestor of the modern Son...The Danzon is.

...I never said that the Son and Danzon did grow toguether

...the whole structuration of the Son,(in its Lyrics,Harmony,Percussion,and Integration of the musical instruments which did define it), took place in Habana....

The Danzon took from the Son the dynamics,and singing,(becoming a Danzonete),...The Son took from the Orquestras Tipicas, the structuration,the harmony,the instruments,(Bass,Trumpet,Clarinet,and later the piano,and Timbales,etc.)

Zaragemca,Lots of points to respond to here. When earlier you stated "Changui is not the ancestor of the modern Son...The Danzon is", I thought you meant to say that danzón is the ancestor of the modern son. Did I misunderstand you?

Changui from the Oriente is indeed the ancestor of the modern son. Are you disagreeing with that? The fundamental son instruments tres and bongo (as well as marimbula) originated in the Oriente. Yes, the piano, bass and wind instruments were added to the son in Havana. The son "migrated" from the Oriente in the arly 20th Century. It appears you contest that point as well. -David

Saludos brother David,again there some misinformation,the fundamental instruments of the Son are the Clave,the Guitar and the Bongos,the Tres was incorporated for dynamics/harmonies with the Guitar and soloing,...said that, both the Bongos and the Claves are from Habana,( I don't really know who might said to you that the Bongos and Claves are from Oriente)...Changui was just another name they used at that time, some people called it 'Guajira', also it happenned with the Mambo and Cha-Cha-Cha, at the begining a lot of people were calling Mambo to the Cha-Cha-Cha and Cha-Cha-Cha to the Mambo,(there are recordings out there to prove it),I listen to them and have LoL , Dr. Zaragemca

Zaragemca,I don’t expect to convince you of anything, but thanks for helping to clarify where we disagree. However for the record, if you re-read my posts, you will see that I didn’t say that "Claves are from Oriente".

Now, as far as misinformation, I’m compelled to correct you again.

o Changui is not 'Guajira'. Changui and its variants negrón and kiribá are predecessors to the son which appeared in Havana in the early 20th Century. There is though some dispute as to whether these early son prototypes have enough distinct qualities from say, Sexteto Habanero that they deserve their own genre classification.

o The bongos come from the Oriente (Eastern end of Cuba), not Havana

I’m kind of surprised that you don’t know this since you know quite a bit about the history of Cuban popular music. A recent article "The Changüí Genre of Guantánamo, Cuba" in The Journal of the Society for Ethnomusicology by Dr. Ben Lapidus (an excellent tresero and jazz guitarist) Vol. 49, #1, Winter 2005 is just one of many sources where one can learn about the music of the Oriente, changui and the birth of son. Here’s just a little excerpt from that article:

"For Cuban music scholars such as Danilo Orozco, Olavo Alén, Argeliers León, María Teresa Linares and others, negrón and kiribá are really variants of son and should be classified, along with changüí , as such and not as distinct genres. …Similar to the status held by the Mississippi Delta as birthplace of the blues in the United States, Oriente is viewed as the birthplace of Cuban son."

Brother David,I don't know how you are reading this article,but I said that Changui was another name used for the Son and that's what the article just said...also it is known all over Cuba that 'Guajira', was another name for the Son,( and it is stated in some recording)...And again the Bongos and Claves,Have never been rooted in Oriente,the foundation of the Carabalies,(Abakua),roots was in Habana and later a seed was planted in Matanzas..being the first one the Brikamo Itia Fondoba in 1862, and they were funcioning in Habana since 1832.(and this is from where the using of Bongos and Clave for the Afrocuban music come from)..The rustic Bongo and Claves were used first for the Yambu/Guaguanco, later for the 'Trios of Guitar' and the Son,...and take it to Oriente and the rest of the country. ..From the article which I did about the Afrocuban Percussion which is here ,(all the bongoceros which started recording and playing it, are from Havana and except the minors, all are member of the Abakua Brotherhood.Dr. Zaragemca

Actually you said: "Changui is NOT the ancestor of the modern Son" (June 09 2006). That statement is false as any number of Cuban musicologists will tell you. Just listening to changui makes the connection apparent as well.

>>>Zaragemca : "the Bongos …… are from Habana" (June 12 2006) "Bongos ….. have never been rooted in Oriente" (June 13 2006). "….rustic Bongo …. were used first for the Yambu/Guaguanco" (June 13 2006) ???

Feel free to quote any authority in Cuban music to back up your statements. I can’t imagine that you can though, because it’s common knowledge that bongos originated in the changui of the Oriente, not Havana, nor were they a part of traditional Yambu/Guaguanco.

From "The Changüí Genre of Guantánamo, Cuba" in The Journal of the Society for Ethnomusicology:

"The bongó de monte was originally made from two BOKUS that were attached by a rope and slung over the drummer’s knee…(Fernadno) Ortíz writes that the bongó of Guantánamo is the progenitor of other bongó-type instruments in Cuba."

Bongos evolved from the Oriente BOKU drum and had nothing to do with Abakua, brikamo or rumba.-Dr. Clave

I have a question which is unrelated to the actual topic, but related to the subject at hand...

David,

I remember asking Ben Lapidus about the rhythmic structure of the bongo de monte, and was wondering where did it come from, is it a palo derivate or tumba francesa or other?

What's your opinion on it?The rhythm played by the bongo in Changui is unlike the typical martillo that is obvious and the position in playing is opposite that of your son bongo, but where does the rhythm come from?

Hi Ralph,I can only offer some semi-educated guesses. Did Ben have an answer to your question? All the palo I've heard is in 6/8 and changui is in 4/4. I'm not sure if the Oriente even has their own indiginous palo, as that rhythm is always identifued as coming from Havana and Matanzas. The Oriente is known for their Haitain connection. They have Congolese and Fon music, but it came via Haitian vodú in the early 1800's.

In the BBC documentary "What is Cuba Playing At?" a Cuban folklorist talks about a connection between changui and tumba Francesa. They then show some scenes of a group of musicians and dancers performing first tumba Francesa and then changui. The dance steps definitely correlate and the drum riffs have some similarities. I bought it.

Changui and early son in general really strikes me as pure Cuban hybrids. The drum language of the bongo de monte (changui-style bongos) is not that unlike early quinto, in that it centers around a rhythmic motif, while occationally breaking out with longer phrases. There's a very clear example of this on "Ritmo Changui" from the CD "Drum Jam", which I produced.

As the son developed more in the area of melody and harmony, the cross-rhythmic elements were toned-down. I believe that the martillo's ascension in son is related to this de-emphasizing of rhythmic tension. In salsa bands you here bongo players go back and forth between the steady "marcha" of the martillo and the older improvisational "language" of bongo.

I probably haven't said anything you don't already know, but that's the best I can do.-David

Saludos I could see the problem,I did say that the Changui was not the ancestor of the Son,(for being just another name like, 'Guajira'), and isn't older than the Danzon and Bolero...In the Bongos Affairs,they could call it Bokus and any other name in Oriente,but they aren't going to be able to put a Bongocero playing that instrument and Claves before the ones from Habana,and which was not from the Carabalies,(Abakuas),brotherhood....If they have that information I want to see it...Dr. Ortiz recognized himself that he was wrong in a lot of his analysis...And finally my ancestors knew more than all of those Scholars together..Dr. Zaragemca