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01-21-2018 07:39 AM

The Citra team have recently announced their new Nintendo Switch emulator - yuzu. This emulator does not run commercial games yet, though does run one homebrew game - space game - albeit badly. I personally enjoy watching emulators progress, so therefore have added this to my system. Of course, that required a module which is supplied in this thread.

As the yuzu emulator is based on citra, I used the citra module as a base. Everything as far as the module is concerned works. Please remember that this emulator is literally weeks old, and does not yet run commercial games.

Those guys are just begging for a cease and desist from Nintendo, aren't they. Doesn't matter if they (Nintendo) have any legal ground or not - the Citra team is actively trying to emulate two systems that aren't even dead yet. If they actually get a commercial game working, I will be very surprised if Nintendo doesn't do something, and they kinda have it coming.

Pardon my self righteous bs but personally, that goes against my principles. If the system is still making a company money, it doesn't seem right to encourage piracy.

But then on the other hand, if their switch emulator works as well as Citra does, I don't think Nintendo is in any real danger lol. Maybe the Citra team ought to work on making a decent 3DS emulator before they try tackling something else.

Expressing opinions are fine but yours aren't backed by any facts. They have no reason to fear a cease and desist because as you mentioned they aren't doing anything wrong or illegal. So insinuating they have it coming doesn't make any sense at all.

Your morals about not emulating current systems is fine but then you go on to say the devs/emu encourage piracy (moreso before you edited your post) which is complete nonsense. As with any other emu devs they don't allow any talk about pirating roms and give you the steps to make backups of your own games. Emus are huge for homebrew scenes and preservation. Will people use it for piracy? Of course. But that's not their job to police and that shouldn't deter them from continuing their completely legal work. People misuse things for illegal/immoral things all the time and that's on the individual. Saying the emu enables piracy would've been more accurate.

Then you take a shot at the Citra devs simply because you don't agree with development of a Switch emu. Citra is far from perfect but it's certainly decent and under constant dev. Your entire post felt like a bitter rant based on faulty logic finished with an insult.

When I insinuated they have it coming, what I meant is, Nintendo has historically went after anyone they perceive as an enemy. Would you actively and publicly develop emulators for both of Nintendo's current systems? I would not - that is a judgement call, based on what I would expect Nintendo's reaction to be, and empirical evidence. Nintendo has money, I don't. If I am right and they are wrong, they can still make my life miserable. I could have worded it better - to say they 'have it coming' is a bit ridiculous. I think what they are doing is unwise, and they should know better. If you persist down a dangerous path knowing the potential consequences, on some level, yeah, I do think you kinda 'have it coming,' whatever it is - but that's not the right way to say it.

When I say that they encourage piracy, consider Nintendo's flagship 'Breath of the Wild' that was just recently released, and is already emulated by Cemu. Honestly, that singular event made me rethink the entire thing, and take a step back. There is an ethical line in here somewhere. If you are actively working to provide the emulation community with the means to flawlessly play Nintendo's current flagship games without purchasing them, you are encouraging it. I'd have to do some serious mental gymnastics to see it differently, and I just can't do it. I look at the situation, and that is what I see, because it is the simplest explanation. Everything you said in opposition to this view I completely agree with, unless it is a platform that is still active. It isn't about preservation, when you can go to Wal-Mart right now and buy all of the games new.

I also respectfully disagree with the stance 'it isn't their responsibility.' From where I'm standing, everything is everyone's responsibility. Most of the evil that occurs in the world is due to apathy, not maliciousness. Meth/heroin dealers blame the addicts, because they don't care. That is a more extreme example, but the principle still applies. If you provide a means for people to play games that are still being sold, you (when I say 'you,' I mean 'they') can hide behind completely innocent or even morally grey motivations all you want, but the end result is, what have you contributed to the world? You have contributed a means for people to play pirated flagship games. It matters. This 'individual responsibility' that you speak of is not invalid, of course. But believing everything is black and white is part of the problem - everyone tends to see the 'white' as everything that's easy, or what they're already doing, and everyone tends to see the 'black' as 'everyone else's responsibility' to get right. It doesn't matter to me that a drug addict is responsible for their addiction - I won't sell him/her drugs, because I am actively contributing to their self harm.

My shot at Citra's devs was based on my perception of the current state of their emulator, not because I didn't agree with the development of it. I was being a dick for sure, but there was no bitterness behind it.

Nintendo has a history of going after sites/groups distributing their copyrighted material like rom sites and fan games, not emus because they don't break copyright. I'm sure the devs are smart enough to know the potential dangers of what they're doing so again your first paragraph doesn't really make much sense.

Just because an emulator is being developed for a system still on the market doesn't mean it's not about preservation. If anything it's the best time to start development and research since interest in the system will be high meaning plenty of user feedback to improve functionality and for open source projects, more potential devs to contribute. The availability of the games in stores also means it's easier for devs (and users) to legally acquire the games for use with the emu.

Nope, still not the dev's responsibility at all and there's nothing they can do about it even if they wanted to w/o sacrificing the accuracy/quality of the project. The goal of the emu is mimic the functionality of the original console. That means running genuine game images. A valid dump is a valid dump so there's no way to discern whether someone dumped an image from the game they personally purchased or if they're using the one they obtained from their friend or some random person upped to the net. Your drug dealer example isn't even remotely comparable to emulation in the slightest.

Nintendo has a history of going after sites/groups distributing their copyrighted material like rom sites and fan games, not emus because they don't break copyright. I'm sure the devs are smart enough to know the potential dangers of what they're doing so again your first paragraph doesn't really make much sense.

If ever there was a time for Nintendo to reconsider that stance, it is when a group is actively trying to emulate both of their current gen systems simultaneously. I'm certain they know the potential dangers too - that's precisely the point. Try to see this from Nintendo's point of view. If they perceive this group as a big enough threat (they most certainly perceive them as *a* threat), at a certain point, they're going to take steps to protect their interests. Morality and technical legality take a back seat in the courtroom, where money is power. If Nintendo decides to throw enough money at this to 'make an example out of them,' it could wreck things for the entire emulation community, because then others will fear developing new emulators. All Nintendo, Sony, and Microsoft need is one case of legal precedent, and then we're all screwed. Don't you think it would be wiser to develop this emulator behind the scenes, then release it after Nintendo comes out with a new system?

Again, there's a line there somewhere. It doesn't even have to be a 'moral' line, it can be one of 'common sense' if you prefer. These guys are walking right up to it with impunity and sticking their right foot over it, just to see how far they can take it. If we can't agree that testing and pushing the boundaries until they eventually and inevitably break as a potential problem, then there's no point in discussing the matter further. The companies will eventually fight back, and they have every right to when their interests are threatened in a very real way. They may even collaborate to make it happen. I don't feel passionately about it either way - it's just how I see it.

Originally Posted by agent47

Just because an emulator is being developed for a system still on the market doesn't mean it's not about preservation. If anything it's the best time to start development and research since interest in the system will be high meaning plenty of user feedback to improve functionality and for open source projects, more potential devs to contribute. The availability of the games in stores also means it's easier for devs (and users) to legally acquire the games for use with the emu.

Valid points.

Originally Posted by agent47

Nope, still not the dev's responsibility at all and there's nothing they can do about it even if they wanted to w/o sacrificing the accuracy/quality of the project. The goal of the emu is mimic the functionality of the original console. That means running genuine game images. A valid dump is a valid dump so there's no way to discern whether someone dumped an image from the game they personally purchased or if they're using the one they obtained from their friend or some random person upped to the net. Your drug dealer example isn't even remotely comparable to emulation in the slightest.

Let me speak plainly, no disrespect intended. All I hear is "I don't care about the potential harm that this project could cause, I am not responsible for contributing something that I know people will use to cause harm, I don't care about Nintendo's interests, I have the right to do whatever I want to do." This is exactly the kind of stuff that drug dealers say. So yes, it is comparable. It is turning a blind eye to everything bad your actions could cause (albeit indirectly), in favor of selfish pursuits.

Attributing the well being of society entirely to individual responsibility is a copout at best. At worst, it is completely selfish, bordering on sociopathy. It was never black and white. It doesn't come completely down to personal responsibility or social responsibility, it's a combination of the two. If you recognize that you have a personal responsibility, then you own up to your own role in the mess that YOU caused in your life, and you don't make excuses or try to cast all of the blame on others. If you recognize that you have a social responsibility, then you own up to a responsibility to knowingly not bring harm to society and others.

Hypothetically speaking: If the Citra team develops a perfectly functioning emulator, and as a result, Nintendo Switch dies a fast and early death, do you feel nothing about that? Is that ok?

This entire moral dilemma could easily be avoided by drawing a line, and then respecting that line. That is not happening here. The boundaries are being pushed, and they will eventually break. It's not an invalid argument, it's only a matter of time.

@SupraKarma - itís not a stance on Nintendoís part. Iím sure they are pissed. That said, neither of Citras emulators use any proprietary code, therefore Nintendo has no legal argument to stop development.

I do not know that I am completely right or completely wrong, all I have is a point of view. My point of view changes when I have more information, when I realize I am wrong, and when I am presented with sound logic. You've made some good points Agent but you haven't changed my mind. It goes deeper than emulation and piracy for me.

Apologies from me also Tones, I was a bit of an ass in my first post. Glad you enjoyed the debate.

The Citra team have recently announced their new Nintendo Switch emulator - yuzu. This emulator does not run commercial games yet, though does run one homebrew game, albeit badly. I personally enjoy watching emulators progress, so therefore have added this to my system. Of course, that required a module which is supplied in this thread.

As the yuzu emulator, is based on citra, so I used the citra module as a base. Everything, as far as the module is concerned, should work. Please remember that this emulator is literally weeks old, and does not yet run commercial games.

Apologies - I screwed up the module notes. Everything works fine - just don't use yuzu-cli.exe as the previous module notes suggested. Just use yuzu.exe as emulator exe, and 'nso' as file extension for home-brew games. Updated module at link below and in original post - it is only the notes section that has been updated though.

I do not know that I am completely right or completely wrong, all I have is a point of view. My point of view changes when I have more information, when I realize I am wrong, and when I am presented with sound logic. You've made some good points Agent but you haven't changed my mind. It goes deeper than emulation and piracy for me.

Apologies from me also Tones, I was a bit of an ass in my first post. Glad you enjoyed the debate.

I love the passion.

Not trying to derail the thread again, the conversation just reminded me of this interesting article I had read about this very subject and thought I would share here in case you guys haven't read it yet.

"Stay out of ethical trouble, and the rest of the emulation community can hopefully stay out of legal trouble, too."

That nails it. People assume emulation will always be legal, because of a few lost court cases. But again, all it takes is one case of legal precedence, and all logical/ethical/legal discussion is over. What Citra team is doing just seems like a huge slap in the face to Nintendo, and I know I'm not the only one that feels that way. If they get sued and most of the jury sees it as a huge dick move actively working on both of Nintendo's current gen systems, while accepting donations to do so, there's your legal precedence right there. But I don't see it ever playing out that way if they'd just wait a few years to release it publicly. A little bit of respect goes a long way, and perception is reality.