Recall Gee's ugly remarks about the SEC, along with his negative comments about Notre Dame, Louisville, etc.? This was not just about BIG fanfare and needling competition. There was frustration. The thought goes, the BIG wanted SEC cooperation apparently to extract further into the ACC and did not get it the way they wanted. From a particular view maybe the message was the SEC was being all stupid about it and did not acknowledge the benefits that could be derived from it. By default, BIG elements may have been conveying which ACC schools the SEC could pick. Talk about a prince dictating to a king?

Oh, most definitely. They did it to the PAC by saying the UMD and RU acquisitions were done as a result to B1G-PAC falling apart. 1) Bull****. 2) It looked totally classless the way the B1G threw the PAC under the bus. The B1G wanted it all, everything, and felt entitled to all of it because, to them, everyone won (of course, none as much as them).

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The ACC surviving is not an SEC worry. Where there's common turf, the SEC largely has an advantage.

I think they've got the best region for college football interest, but I bet they'd kill to get into western North Carolina and southwestern Virginia. It would definitely propel their worth definitively over the B1G's.

I have to wonder what might happen if Charlotte develops a decent football program and rediscovers its basketball strength. Not necessarily SEC-worthy, but maybe a future NC replacement in the ACC, should it EVER happen?

SEC03--Your thoughts on the Big Ten expecting the SEC to help kill the ACC when they added Rutgers and Maryland are spot on. Delany likely was trying to dictate to Slive which programs the SEC was going to get and pushing for the SEC to take programs that were low on their priority list just so the Big Ten could have the programs they wanted.

Florida St and Clemson would have been the opening salvo of dirty work--excellent programs but in existing SEC markets. I imagine the real sticking point was that the Big Ten was expecting the SEC to take VPI and NC St. I don't think Slive was at all happy about being expected to take the Wolfpack so the Big Ten could have the Tarheels and possibly the Blue Devils and was further peeved at the idea of the Big Ten stepping into the SEC's turf with a GT addition and that's where things broke down.

The threat of the SEC taking UNC and Duke would have destroyed the entire Big Ten plan. The ACC would still have VPI, FSU and Clemson as their backbone and UVA would not be able to or interested going to the Big Ten.

In short, the ACC will stick together at least until the GoR expires. Depending on what the money situation we could see Pandora's Box reopened.

SEC03--Your thoughts on the Big Ten expecting the SEC to help kill the ACC when they added Rutgers and Maryland are spot on. Delany likely was trying to dictate to Slive which programs the SEC was going to get and pushing for the SEC to take programs that were low on their priority list just so the Big Ten could have the programs they wanted.

Florida St and Clemson would have been the opening salvo of dirty work--excellent programs but in existing SEC markets. I imagine the real sticking point was that the Big Ten was expecting the SEC to take VPI and NC St. I don't think Slive was at all happy about being expected to take the Wolfpack so the Big Ten could have the Tarheels and possibly the Blue Devils and was further peeved at the idea of the Big Ten stepping into the SEC's turf with a GT addition and that's where things broke down.

The threat of the SEC taking UNC and Duke would have destroyed the entire Big Ten plan. The ACC would still have VPI, FSU and Clemson as their backbone and UVA would not be able to or interested going to the Big Ten.

In short, the ACC will stick together at least until the GoR expires. Depending on what the money situation we could see Pandora's Box reopened.

Muskie, that sounds close to what may have transpired. The situation in North Carolina was fundamental to the politics of it all.The BIG certainly looked at a model that could have included AAU members UVA, UNC, GT, which could have prompted ND. It would have been a contiguous line southward. That would have been a major market boost for the BIG.

Cutter mentioned UNCC.

All the NC university system schools are under one governing body. UNC is the flagship, thus the real prize. In many ways, NCSU in Raleigh could be a real plus for the SEC. But control and money impacts. NCSU could not be so autonomous in such an endeavor.

VPI could be a plus for the SEC as well, given the proximity to Tennessee, etc. The Roanoke area is a hub and growing market in Virginia. However, VPI's freshness to the ACC lingers, and it took a huge political play in Virginia to get them in the ACC. VPI is pretty central to the ACC's geography now.This is why splitting schools in North Carolina and Virginia are more complicated; and if another major conference was trying to make in-roads, help from another major conference would have been required. Maryland did not have such a situation with its decision.

I suppose politics is indeed local. Texas A&M wanted to separate from Texas to get in the SEC. Oklahoma-OSU, Kansas-KSU, etc., may not be conditioned for splitting. But in Florida, Georgia, SC, Kentucky, Iowa, for examples, splits of the major in-state schools in top conferences happened, with timing, development, circumstances, and history, unique with each situation.

Agree, had the BIG plan worked, the BIG would have the greatest gain. Sure the SEC could have extracted schools for marketing in NC & VA., but at what cost? Media coverage in the region gets more competitive along with recruiting and pie splitting. Plus, the image of settling for second choices gives an impression the flagships were unattainable, even though the real picks could be better for fb and related sports, and probably geography as well (VPI in SW VA; NCSU in the NC capital city). The SEC already took Mizzou, whom the politics of the BIG passed on. Nevertheless, a very smart SEC decision.

Then, there are those remaining in the aftermath--some former BE schools, Wake, maybe Duke and Miami, assuming FSU, Clemson, Louisville, possibly Miami, are forced to head for the Big12, or left with a gutted ACC to re-build on a lesser level (AAC situation).

If the SEC tried to add more now, given the GoRs', they'd be essentially some of the same schools the B12 could be pondering. Rice & Tulane who are private AAU schools in good regional city markets, but short on the depth of fans and histories of struggling to compete?

The BIG does have the option to close more in the northest with UConn, a school offering a little bit of everything the B1G may seek, but generally incomplete on any one given dimension.

True, these big conferences are going to sit back and wait some years to expand again. It may be what's best for the moment. I also don't want to see any of them going past 16 in the future. At that point, it's just an association with sub-entities.

As to the ACC itself, they missed on not taking WVU; and if they had that with ND all-sports, they would be more formidable all-around. A part of me says the ACC was too arrogant and strategically misguided, and deserved to be picked apart.

Seeing the ACC's special arrangement with ND defended in ACC territory by sources in the media is not unexpected. The ACC's PR network is going to act following some of the criticism out there, even from within.

It's the new bowl arrangements that are noted to highlight the justification.

Maybe, when again Swofford is sitting beside ND AD Swarbrick at the table in discussions and both voting with Delany, Slive, Bowlsby, and Scott, as they contemplate a new super-division in fb/college sports, and focus on more playoff details, they'll all feel confident and assured about the inclusiveness and balanced process?

With Notre Dame joining the ACC for this upcoming season, it looks like this makes the 3rd athletic conference affiliation in its athletics history as an all-sports non-football full member (with football STILL being an FBS Independent). The other two are the old Big East from 1995-96 to last season; and prior to that in the Horizon League (then, the Midwestern Collegiate Conference) from 1982-83 to 1985-86 and from 1987-88 to 1994-95; and on both conferences that ND was affiliated to, its football program was still in the D-I-A level, as an Independent. Within years to come, I'm sure that the Irish must be forced to join football along with its all other sports because they won't stay as an Independent for life. Just my opinion.

Well, they don't have to put any additional time in "purgatory" like Louisville and Rutgers, or Syracuse and Pitt before them, but I'm not entirely sold on ND "winning" this thing. We just don't know what kind of leverage an ACC with ND's full participation would have been worth to both its media partners and select bowls.

"It was unusual". --- No it wasn't. ND had essentially the same deal with the Big East.

Hehe, yeah. What will be "unusual" is if Notre Dame actually honors this arrangement. The Big East never got their 3-4 games per year from the Irish.

I still think this won't last. The ACC's arrangement for its five games will cause some in South Bend to gripe about "rigidity" and the lack of flexibility to schedule games it wants outside of the ACC. You toss that in with some resistance to playing true road games at some of these ACC venues, and the Irish will stir the pot once again. They want to play where the pros do.

"It was unusual". --- No it wasn't. ND had essentially the same deal with the Big East.

Hehe, yeah. What will be "unusual" is if Notre Dame actually honors this arrangement. The Big East never got their 3-4 games per year from the Irish.

I still think this won't last. The ACC's arrangement for its five games will cause some in South Bend to gripe about "rigidity" and the lack of flexibility to schedule games it wants outside of the ACC. You toss that in with some resistance to playing true road games at some of these ACC venues, and the Irish will stir the pot once again. They want to play where the pros do.

That's a good point. FSU and Clemson have stadium capacities & crowds that can match-up with what Notre Dame has. After that, it can go from the mid 60s'K to the lower 30s'k. Notre Dame has played at Wake and Duke, so they have done the smaller stadium situations before for easier wins it's assumed. Their thinking is that for every other year, they's have to do only 3 ACC road fb games. And even with that, they'll try to get bigger and more friendly venues where they can. Remember what they tried to pull with Rutgers a few years back? Rutgers told them no and the series got canned. It was the first time maybe, someone in the Big East stood up to them on a scheduling issue. UConn on the other hand, showed a willingness to be more accommodating with them.

Hopefully for the ACCs' sake, Swofford was smart enough to have the right safeguards and legal specifications in the agreement. Notre Dame shall exploit any opportunity, and "good faith" understandings are worthless in this regard.

Politically this time, Notre Dame will not have a group of bb-only, private Catholic schools to work with them in a bloc, or be a manipulator between factions as Notre Dame did so skillfully in the old Big East. On the other hand, the agreement, and with the GoR, assures Notre Dame can be fb independent with the exception of the rotating 5 game sceduling deal.Change will have to come from extensive complaints and/or the playoff system criteria develops in a way that Notre Dame shall have diminished opportunities. They already keep their seat at the table, at least equal to any commissioner.

It all sounds lovey-dovey right now between the ACC & Notre Dame as their honeymoon commences. But conflict shall occur in this relationship. And it won't take long.

Politically this time, Notre Dame will not have a group of bb-only, private Catholic schools to work with them in a bloc, or be a manipulator between factions as Notre Dame did so skillfully in the old Big East.

I would argue that Notre Dame does have a group of schools they can manipulate in the ACC. Everyone in the ACC knows that should the Irish leave the ACC (and presumably go to the Big Ten) that it would start a chain reaction of raids with at least one other ACC school going to the Big Ten with them and then probably another pair of ACC schools to the SEC since Slive won't stand to be one-upped by Jim Delany. Schools like Miami, WF, BC, Pitt, and Cuse who have no hope of going to better conference are going to be accomodating to the Irish--ironically the football schools they used to out-politic in the Big East will be the schools helping ND get what they want.

The Irish also have the ability to use the threat of going to the Catholic Big East for all sports and returning to complete football independence to influence the ACC. The Irish will continue to manipulate the members of any conference they are a part of.

I agree that schools like Pitt, Miami, BC, and Wake will probably not have problems with the Irish in terms of venues, as they have history. Probably not a problem for FSU and Clemson, either. I'm not as certain Syracuse and Georgia Tech play as nice now. It's one thing when games versus the Irish are hard to come by...it's another when they're now contractually obligated. Maybe those games go to the Carrier Dome and Bobby Dodd rather than the Meadowlands and the Georgia Dome respectively. I fully expect Notre Dame to ask for games in Charlotte, Landover, and RFK when it's time to play the other NC and VA schools. And what about in Louisville?

Something tells me some of these presidents, AD's and coaches expect the Irish to come to town and help out one of their home games, but Swofford misrepresenting the group and saying "hey, we're flexible on venues" to the Irish.

fighting muskie wrote:

The Irish also have the ability to use the threat of going to the Catholic Big East for all sports and returning to complete football independence to influence the ACC. The Irish will continue to manipulate the members of any conference they are a part of.

The C7 didn't want Notre Dame for even a year, and that would have made the conference a little more money than what they would be getting without. I don't think the Big East wants them. And seeing as how the splitting of the conference exposed three parts to the conference (basketball schools, football schools, and Notre Dame), I think the basketball schools, while maybe similar to Notre Dame institutionally, really didn't want these guys ever. Remember, it wasn't like Big East basketball got better because it got the Irish. It was totally the other way around.

Also, the ACC is on the clock to get their lacrosse conference together. Notre Dame will probably have something to say about that, too.

Another reason Notre Dame would not go to the reformed BE is that they are no longer in the fb business. Notre Dame, though fb independent, needs that connection with an all-sports conference for maintaining their high influence.

How Tobacco Road ends up assessing this relationship later on shall be interesting. Duke bb has already weighed-in a bit on this, before anything gets played.

I'm not sure Notre Dame can count on any real and loyal buddies. BC had issues with ND as they left the BE for the ACC earlier. That didn't stop the fb series, but was cited as a factor in why BC left the BE in the way they did.

Pitt shall accommodate ND. Pitt even dumped playing WVU with a preference to keep the Irish on schedule. Pitt has the venue (pro facility) already when hosting.

Some in the ACC will certainly be willing to meet ND in off-campus venues for bigger paydays. But most of the state schools high on fb, shall want those home field visits.

If it gets down to Notre Dame declaring they just couldn't work out the venue scheduling and times for certain games in an effort to have matters further their way, and thus retract from commitments, that nonsense shall not last long without a major blow-up.

Individual schools can agree with ND for a separate venue. However, short of that, it should be home to home as the rotation process flows. If Swofford did not have language in the contract to address this, then it was a big mistake by him and his cohorts.

Also, if ND plays the "no available dates" game, the ACC should not let that fly. The reply should be "cancel Southern Cal, cancel Navy, whatever, meet the commitment you signed with us" or "pay-up and go".

Another reason Notre Dame would not go to the reformed BE is that they are no longer in the fb business. Notre Dame, though fb independent, needs that connection with an all-sports conference for maintaining their high influence.

The same thing should apply for UConn (in case the Huskies leave The American to join another conference like the ACC).

Considering that a home game against Notre Dame will only come for an ACC school once every 6 years it would be pretty audacious for the Irish to expect the ACC members to give up their home field advantage and move the games to NFL venues. the only schools that would really make sense for are WF and Duke since their venues are significantly smaller than Bank of America Stadium.

As for the Irish and the Catholic Big East, I was under the impression that it was the BE who extended the one-yr offer and the Irish who balked at the idea. I think that as long as ND can maintain its special status as an independent within the playoff structure and any "division 4" realignment the BE remains a viable leveraging tool whenever they are bargaining with the rest of the ACC.

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