A federal appeals court gave the video game industry a big boost Tuesday, reversing a controversial lower court decision and ruling that games are protected by the First Amendment.

Last April, Senior U.S. District Judge Stephen Limbaugh ruled that computer and video games had "no conveyance of ideas, expression or anything else that could possibly amount to free speech" in a St. Louis County case that sought to limit children's access to mature video games.

The 8th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals disagreed, saying a "particularized message" is not required when it comes to the First Amendment.

"If the First Amendment is versatile enough to 'shield [the] painting of Jackson Pollock, music of Arnold Schoenberg, or Jabberwocky verse of Lewis Carroll,' we see no reason why the pictures, graphic design, concept art, sounds, music, stories, and narrative present in video games are not entitled to a similar protection," the court said in its ruling. "The mere fact that they appear in a novel medium is of no legal consequence."

St. Louis County had argued that stories are incidental in games, and players often skip straight to the action. The court acknowledged this, but noted the same could be said of today's action-packed movies, such as "The Matrix." Additionally, it said, home viewers of these films can easily skip to the action sequences using their DVD players or VCRs.

"The fact that modern technology has increased viewer control does not render movies unprotected by the First Amendment, and equivalent player control likewise should not automatically disqualify modern video games," the court said.

Experts say the ruling could have broad implications. Specifically, it could be a key factor in the upcoming appeal of Washington state's recently signed law banning the sale of certain violent video games to people under the age of 17.

That doesn't mean a Tomb Raider-like game can't come out with her, and what about Soul Calibur and Dead Or Alive?
Take offs on them can come out too.

Draco

06-10-04, 03:13

As long as it doesn't violate copryright laws, it is entirely possible.

New-Raider

06-10-04, 03:37

Originally posted by Draco:
As long as it doesn't violate copryright laws, it is entirely possible.Google "Food Chain Barbie"
A photojournalist was doing a thesis on the stereotypes of today's society.
In it the Mattel doll Barbie was posed nude in very violent and sexual situations.
Because the pictures were taken in the name of art for educational value, the judge ruled this legal.
Mattel would even have to pay a 1000 dollar fine to to the photographer, but that was settled out of court.

Draco

06-10-04, 19:40

Context is integral to court rulings in many cases. What were the dolls depicting that could be educational? And what is considered a violent and sexual situation?

New-Raider

06-10-04, 20:08

So theoretically, If an independent stole for instance Kasumi and Hitomi from DOA3, and Ivy and Taki from Soul Calibur 2, and made them talk to the screen (player) talking about their Culture, and then the narrator comes on announcing and pointing out their fighting moves while they're in action, we could see them in various states of undress and/or fully nude with genitals because it's for educational value, and neither Tecmo nor Namco could stop it! http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/thumb.gif
In addition, the mini games could be called interactive art, which protects the full game nudity aspect of it.

Kasumi was said to be 17, but her actual age is NA, so there is no chance of it being called "virtual kiddie porn".
I wonder what the guys that made the DOAX nude patch thinks of that?

The only thing one has to worry about, is a long dragged out battle in court.

New-Raider

06-10-04, 20:17

Originally posted by Draco:
Context is integral to court rulings in many cases. What were the dolls depicting that could be educational? And what is considered a violent and sexual situation?Every July 27th is Barbie In A Blender Day, for that is the picture one most remembers, representing free speech.
Another is a row of naked and topless barbies rapped up in burritos going into an oven.
These pictures are commenting on a mix of stereotypes like the working women who wants to be "the happy homemaker".
The phraise "barefoot and in the kitchen" takes on new meaning as she is stripped of her clothes, just like she is stripped of her dignity.

[ 06. October 2004, 21:27: Message edited by: New-Raider ]

Draco

06-10-04, 20:25

So in reality it is just another way to burn a bra.

I notice that once again nudity is pinned on as being bad. But the symbology doesn't escape me.

New-Raider

06-10-04, 20:32

Originally posted by Draco:
So in reality it is just another way to burn a bra.

I notice that once again nudity is pinned on as being bad. But the symbology doesn't escape me.Yes, that is sad, but it's the only way to get around it, such as Ansal Adams found out.

I can see unauthorized videogames where Lara Croft undresses as she points out the history of each artifact.
The more you dwelve into the history (Tombs Raided) the more she takes off.

[ 06. October 2004, 21:34: Message edited by: New-Raider ]

Thorn

06-10-04, 20:34

This might not be the direct topic, but it's related. I love violent games and I think it'd suck if a game I was expecting was banned. An example would be Manhunt. Sure it's very graphic but that's what the developers were going for. The game could be backed up better if it had a better storyline or something, but it doesn't. Bloodrayne is also very violent but the main character is killing off nazi's and such to save mankind. In Silent Hill you kill unreal creatures to survive. So many M rated games have a more realistic plot to the storyline besides pure violence.

New-Raider

06-10-04, 20:47

Originally posted by THORN:
I love violent games and I think it'd suck if a game I was expecting was banned.Then get ready for a dissapoitment if you're under 17.
The seller of videogames in your community, including Gamestop, Chips&Bits, Babbages, and Electronics Boutique, are now authorized to stop a minor from buying mature video games without consulting the parent first.
This means everyone who looks young could be carded in the store and online with digital age verification.
Carding is up to the store dealer, but it means they are fined $500 a customer if they don't, so expect a change in store purchaces next year.
Actually, the rule is selling games to minors which includes 17, so the ESRB might be in for a change as well, such as M = 18 and up, AO = 19 and up.

[ 06. October 2004, 21:50: Message edited by: New-Raider ]

Lemmie

06-10-04, 20:47

I have boycotted violent games since I heard an article about it on Radio Four. I was just sickened. And the weird thing is that all my friends love them, but I personally think there are much better things to do.
I heard about GTA Vice City being prosecuted by American lawyers and that the British Government were handling Rockstar Leith Enterprises in Scotland, I couldn't believe that the inspiration for such a tasteless, unimaginative game came from Scotland! Well, there goes the neighborhood.
I also heard that in their defence GTA were trying to use an amendment of the American Constitution that said something about Freedom of Expression. Hah! Don't make me laugh! http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/violent.gif :mad:

Lemmie

06-10-04, 20:54

Also just because the enemies are Nazi's doesn't make it any better. Had Hitler actually gone through with his plans, how long do you think it would've lasted? Once he was dead and buried everything would've come back to some assemblage of normality. And most Nazi soldiers, only did what they did because they were too weak to say 'no'.
Just because they're Nazi's doesn't make it any more acceptable in my view.

Draco

06-10-04, 20:55

Well I am anti censorship, but little good that does when people are worried about 'morality' and the 'good of the children'.

It's all a bit too socialist for me.

New-Raider

06-10-04, 20:56

Actually it was both GTA Vice City and GTA 3.
There was a famous case of 2 boys (brothers I think) who killed family and friends saying they got the idea from GTA3.
Actually, they only got the instructions of how to pull it off from the game, and were mentally unstable before hand, even if they didn't look it.

[ 06. October 2004, 21:59: Message edited by: New-Raider ]

janny_c.

07-10-04, 05:58

Censorship? This means putting tags for what audience game is for?!
as long as they don't ban...but then again I can buy from other countries via the Internet and they don't even know what age I am..teeheee, take that you banning bastar*!!!!!
Hey I'm
18 soon, so I don't mind http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/jumper.gif

laracroft8290

07-10-04, 13:45

Originally posted by New-Raider:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by THORN:
I love violent games and I think it'd suck if a game I was expecting was banned.Then get ready for a dissapoitment if you're under 17.
The seller of videogames in your community, including Gamestop, Chips&Bits, Babbages, and Electronics Boutique, are now authorized to stop a minor from buying mature video games without consulting the parent first.
This means everyone who looks young could be carded in the store and online with digital age verification.
Carding is up to the store dealer, but it means they are fined $500 a customer if they don't, so expect a change in store purchaces next year.
Actually, the rule is selling games to minors which includes 17, so the ESRB might be in for a change as well, such as M = 18 and up, AO = 19 and up.</font>[/QUOTE]Which means you can still buy them off of eBay, at resale and pawn shops with no problems whatsoever :D

Draco

07-10-04, 15:50

Originally posted by janny_c.:
Censorship? This means putting tags for what audience game is for?!
as long as they don't ban...but then again I can buy from other countries via the Internet and they don't even know what age I am..teeheee, take that you banning bastar*!!!!!
Hey I'm
18 soon, so I don't mind http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/jumper.gif Anything that limits knowledge based on an individuals ability to understand it is censorship.

LARAMANIAC

07-10-04, 16:05

Originally posted by Draco:
Well I am anti censorship, but little good that does when people are worried about 'morality' and the 'good of the children'.

It's a little too socialist for me.
Draco could you explain a little more what you mean by this, please? Don't think I understand what you are trying to say? :confused:

New-Raider

07-10-04, 16:20

Originally posted by janny_c.:
Censorship? This means putting tags for what audience game is for?!
as long as they don't ban...but then again I can buy from other countries via the Internet and they don't even know what age I am..teeheee, take that you banning bastar*!!!!!
Hey I'm
18 soon, so I don't mind http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/jumper.gif Originally posted by laracroft8290:
Which means you can still buy them off of eBay, at resale and pawn shops with no problems whatsoever :D Both of you are incorrect.
They thought of that already.
With VoIP eavsdropping (really meant for terrorists) it's eazy to lookup your age, just like Keyloging and Web beacons.
Popups (not necessarily ads) also includes an age estimate from your behavior online.
Another thing, eBay, Toys-R-Us, amazon.com, and ebgames.com were the first things they thought of when making this rule.
I'm suprized nobody asked me for the source of the article.

The House just passed it, and now the proposal goes to the Senate.
If all goes well, store carding will take place in the Spring of 2005.

[ 07. October 2004, 18:16: Message edited by: New-Raider ]

Draco

07-10-04, 16:59

Originally posted by LARAMANIAC:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Draco:
Well I am anti censorship, but little good that does when people are worried about 'morality' and the 'good of the children'.

It's a little too socialist for me.
Draco could you explain a little more what you mean by this, please? Don't think I understand what you are trying to say? :confused: </font>[/QUOTE]When someone is offended by something, they harp about the children so that people will feel bad for apposing the thing they want done.

Nowadays more stupidity is done in the name of children than God.

bumb1ebee

07-10-04, 17:40

Originally posted by New-Raider:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by janny_c.:
Censorship? This means putting tags for what audience game is for?!
as long as they don't ban...but then again I can buy from other countries via the Internet and they don't even know what age I am..teeheee, take that you banning bastar*!!!!!
Hey I'm
18 soon, so I don't mind http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/jumper.gif Originally posted by laracroft8290:
Which means you can still buy them off of eBay, at resale and pawn shops with no problems whatsoever :D Both of you are incorrect.
They thought of that already.
With VoIP eavsdropping (really meant for terrorists) it's eazy to lookup your age, just like Keyloging and Web beacons.
Popups (not necessarily ads) also includes an age estimate from your behavior online.
Another thing, eBay, Toys-R-Us, amazon.com, and ebgames.com were the first things they thought of when making this rule.
I'm suprized nobody asked me for the source of the article.

The House just passed it, and now the proposal goes to the Senate.
If all goes well, store carding will take place in the Spring of 2005.</font>[/QUOTE]If this is true, it's not going to work. To buy stuff online you have to use a credit card which is most likely from your parents if you're under 18. If the parents don't do anything about it (the items show up on the bill), then they really have no right to prevent kids from purchasing mature products.

"Estimating" your age based on your online activities is useless. If people were to guess my age based on what sites I visit, they'd think I'm 14 years old.

SEATTLE, Washington (AP) -- A federal judge Thursday struck down Washington state's ban on selling some violent video games to minors, calling it a violation of free speech.Click headline for more.

[ 07. October 2004, 19:01: Message edited by: New-Raider ]

laracroft8290

07-10-04, 19:10

Big woo...they refuse to sell to kids 17 and under...who buys most of those games anyways? The parents http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/whistle.gif

New-Raider

07-10-04, 20:31

Originally posted by laracroft8290:
Big woo...they refuse to sell to kids 17 and under...who buys most of those games anyways? The parents http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/whistle.gif That's what I say, but refusing to sell M games to minors violates the gaming free speech law in the first post, so 17 year olds can buy them, and if a 13 or 14 year old should choose it, they can't stop the kid from buying it.
AO stays the same.

What I'm wondering is if a person can make a game filled with all paraphilias in the name of free speech and lable the rating M.
"Singles: Threesome" (working title) is an EP/booster disk to Singles: Flirt Up Your Life that is filled with the stuff I can't talk about here.
It includes online play so preteens can play naked mini games when daddy is out.
FUYL will be in stores in a few days.

[ 07. October 2004, 21:37: Message edited by: New-Raider ]

New-Raider

07-10-04, 20:41

Hey, I'm glad your username doesn't have the initials Y.L.
LOL

mattioz

07-10-04, 21:41

phew its not the UK then, if it is there would be no more tomb raiders :( , or any other games we all like, games without vilence will be a bit sad, as all my ps2 and pc games are violent except the sims! we need 2 protest!!! lol http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/whistle.gif

janny_c.

07-10-04, 23:23

Originally posted by New-Raider:
"Singles: Threesome" (working title) is an EP/booster disk to Singles: Flirt Up Your Life that is filled with the stuff I can't talk about here.Oh my lord.
BTW,whoever said that by fallowing what sites you visit they can predict your age,that's bunch of bull. Also,I share this computer with family members, so they better not even think of judging my age!

janny_c.

08-10-04, 23:58

Thanx for the info NewRaider.
I know that singles:flirt up your life got some bad reviews because there was nothing else you can do except build a house,get two people together, and get it on...which gets pretty boring even if not pixilated http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/c-4.gif

I'm surprised they are doing the second one.I just heard this. It better have more features if they want sucesfull title on their hands.

I also don't know if this has been mentioned or not,but someone is thinking of puting R titles on more "controversial" and violent games. I think that's a bad idea.....for industry and all....for selling of the games. What would Rockstar do. I sure hope they reconsider, but checking someone age in shop for games like M-MA is a good idea that can probably control some of the young sickoes playing the games.

New-Raider

12-10-04, 02:00

Originally posted by janny_c.:
I also don't know if this has been mentioned or not,but someone is thinking of puting R titles on more "controversial" and violent games. I think that's a bad idea.....for industry and all....for selling of the games. What would Rockstar do. I sure hope they reconsider, but checking someone age in shop for games like M-MA is a good idea that can probably control some of the young sickoes playing the games.Cracks in the ratings leave parents in the lurch (http://csmweb2.emcweb.com/2004/0903/p12s01-almo.html).