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The October 8th Broadcast

We’ll have more up before Friday, but here’s a spot to discuss the broadcast on this site. What were your reactions? How many people were there? Have you checked out the Church’s new site for Yes on 8 materials?

As with all things at MfM, honest, thoughtful comments are welcome, but please be polite and considerate of one another, of folks who disagree with you and of folks who are still trying to figure out where they stand and come to terms with some hard-to-digest information.

Tags: commentary, fact-checking, politics, prop 8, reaction

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27 Responses to “The October 8th Broadcast”

1admin3on 09 Oct 2008 at 4:31 pm

Dave had some interesting thoughts about the broadcast, which we’re moving over here so everyone can find the discussion:

So I attended the broadcast last night. I behaved myself. Didn’t speak to anyone and wasn’t approached by anyone. Didn’t hand out articles or anything like that. I took lots of notes. I could regurgitate them, but I don’t think that’s necessary.

I would estimate there were approximately 300 in attendance at this Stake Center. Average age was probably around 45-50. Not really very many young adults in attendance which surprised me because the presentation was geared toward young adults and I believe there is a young adult ward within this Stake. Not much diversity in the congregation; mostly white anglos. Since there are a lot of hispanics in this area, I was expecting to see a large proportion, but really didn’t see any at all. One black family that looked out of place. I guess I’m not really surprised because this is typically how all Mormon congregations look in Utah, but I was expecting a little more diversity here.

It was a pre-taped presentation with Elder M. Russell Ballard, Elder Quentin L. Cook and Elder L. Whitney Clayton giving the presentation. They were sitting around a small round table and reading from teleprompters, with no live audience which made it look “robotic” at times. The presentation didn’t seem inspiring and it didn’t appear to me that those attending felt inspired.

Much of the presentation was geared toward young adults and even Elder Ballard (who admitted he didn’t understand what it meant) was encouraging them to “go viral” on the internet. On more than one occasion they implored the conversations and web chats, etc. to not be antagonistic. They showed a sample of YouTube videos and encouraged those with the know-how, to post their own. A portion of the presentation was college age students asking an Institute Director, questions about the proposition and it’s consequences.

It was obvious that the Church has gone full bore political machine on this issue with all the attendant lies, half-truths and exaggerations in an attempt to spread FUD to get people to vote yes. They laid out the schedule of “phases” up through election day, and it looked like any other political campaign strategy. (I’ve been involved in a few myself, so I know what they look like.)

I was curious to see if they would bring up any of the “six consequences if Prop 8 fails”. Sure enough they brought up the first three several times. Although they added the disclaimer that these consequences wouldn’t all happen right away, they nevertheless emphasized these consequences will surely befall us. I was a little surprised that two of the Apostles would compromise the integrity of the Quorum of Twelve by repeating these lies and encouraging members to repeat these lies in their “Get out the vote” campaigns. As I said, It was obvious that the Church has gone full bore political machine on this issue with all the attendant lies, half-truths and exaggerations in an attempt to spread FUD to get people to vote yes. But as they say, Politics is Politics and apparently the only way to get your side heard is to lie. After all, the Church is clearly on the wrong side of equality on this issue and they have to present some sort of scary story.

One other tactic was mentioned which I believe borders on unethical. They asked if people know someone who is not currently living in California, that they make sure they vote. I could have been reading this wrong, but it seemed the subliminal message was to get your friends and relatives throughout the country to register and vote in California. As I said, I may have read that wrong but I wonder how many people had a light bulb turn on at that moment.

It could be that the Church feels they are justified to pull out all the stops – a take off on “it is better that one man perish than a whole nation dwindle in unbelief” attitude, but I believe the message last night compromised the Quorum.

Being there with three hundred saints was sort of a melancholy experience for me. These are the people I spent the first thirty years of my life with and I would have been right there with them in my previous life. It is hard to describe, but I believe I felt compassion for them. They were there firmly believing that they are about the work of the Lord. I wish them no evil. I believe most of them are probably very kind and gentle people and probably would be heartbroken if they really understood the turmoil they are causing for some of the young (and even some of the older) members in their midst. And I felt sad. Sort of how I felt at the end of Stepford Wives.

2Kevinon 09 Oct 2008 at 9:17 pm

Dave,

i appreciate your concern for those faithful members of the church who sustain the prophet and apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators. I believe you are genuine. I want you to know that i was at a stake center on wednesday to watch the prop 8 broadcast. It was filled with over 300 young adults. There are so many of us young adults who support prop 8 and who believe that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God.

I do not believe that the general authorities of the Church were lying.

And finally, I want you to know that there have only been a few times in my life when i have felt more inspired than I felt last night. I know I felt the truth of their message, and i was inspired to act in support of prop 8. I know that the Apostles and other general authorities are acting in truth and under the direction of God. I hope and pray that the small efforts we make as faithful church members will preserve marriage and our society.

3Johnon 10 Oct 2008 at 12:56 am

Some clarification about the comments about CA voters living out of state. This was referring to legal CA residents who are currently not physically in the state such as someone in serving in the military (who may be in Iraq), or a student, or someone temporarily on a business assignment who ARE legally California residents and have the right and even duty to vote in the state of CA.

4Natalieon 10 Oct 2008 at 7:20 am

What is the church’s new site for Yes on 8 materials? They actually have their own website?

5admin2on 10 Oct 2008 at 8:40 am

The new church site is:
http://www.preservingmarriage.org/

6Dave Hoenon 10 Oct 2008 at 12:00 pm

Kevin –

Clearly your expectations of an inspirational experience are different than mine.
– Does it bring more love to our existence here on earth or does it take some away?
– Are the hungry fed, the naked clothed or those in prison, visited?
– Are those in pain or maybe even contemplating taking their own life, comforted?
– Is there a reverence as if Christ himself is present?

I did not feel that and I did not see that in the faces of those present or those presenting on Wednesday night.

I believe that every Mormon on both sides of this argument should read Carol Lynn Pearson’s account of Stuart Matis, “I Would Really Rather Be Dead” and the Newsweek article about him. Both of those can be found on this website at:

I believe that if Wednesday night’s meeting had simply been reading the account of Stuart Matis, those attending would have left inspired to bring more love to our existence here on earth, instead of taking it away.

7Captain Moronion 10 Oct 2008 at 3:20 pm

I went to the http://www.preservingmarriage.org/ and there was basically nothing there. The did have some bullett points on the left making “Six Consequences..” type statements. I addressed some and asked them to remove them since they were deceitful. I cut and pasted most of my responses from Morris’ rebuttal to “Six Consequences”. I called on the to repent. Check it out –

As a recommend holding LDS, I am dismayed by the bullett points listed on the left hand side of the page. I know that I and others have addressed them on the blogs. Please consider these thoughts and remove those items from the page. We LDS continue to suffer from those who speak lies, half-truths, etc…We should not be using those tactics ourselves.

* Proposition 8 will not hurt gays.
In California, the law provides for marriage-related benefits to be given to civil unions and domestic partnerships. Proposition 8 does not diminish these benefits. Failure to pass Proposition 8 will hurt children.
CM – Having separate schools, separate drinking fountains, separate restrooms, etc.. treated Blacks as second class citizens. Most claimed that Blacks aren’t harmed since the water in both the White and Black drinking fountains was equally cold and clear and that the back of the bus gets to the bus stop just as fast as the front of the bus. “Where’s the harm?”, they ask. Do we LDS REALLY want adopt the cruel logic of those bigots?

* Failure to pass Proposition 8 will hurt children. If gay marriage remains legal, public schools will put it on equal footing with traditional marriage. Children will likely receive “age appropriate” information about sexual relations within heterosexual and homosexual marriages.
CM – The CURRENT LAW in CA, Education Code (51933), deals with comprehensive sexual health education and HIV/AIDS prevention. It provides that instruction shall be age appropriate and medically accurate, shall teach “respect for marriage and committed relationships”. Since it pushes other types of committed relationships (other than traditional marriage), kids will still be taught those things whether or not Prop. 8 passes.

* Failure to pass Proposition 8 will hurt churches.
The court’s decision will inevitably lead to conflicts with religious liberty and free speech rights. Society will become more and more hostile to traditional beliefs about marriage and family.
CM – The California Supreme Court ruling on gay marriage cannot have any federal tax consequences, and the Court so noted explicitly in its decision. The Supreme Court also noted that!its ruling would not require any priest, rabbi or minister to perform gay marriages, which should be self evident because of the First Amendment’s guarantee of freedom of religion.!!!!!

CM – As representatives of Christ, we have to be completely honest, candid and without guile in communicating with others. The bullett point on your page do not come close to the standards the Savior expects of His Church and disciples. Please repent of this deceitfulness and remove them.

Thank you.

8Lauraon 10 Oct 2008 at 3:37 pm

Dave, I am saddened by your accusations of lies and deceit of the apostles. If you truly sustain the the apostles, seers, and revelators, do you not think they have a greater understanding and view of the consequences of this Proposition? Right-wing groups push at the edges of the law all the time to get what they want. Just because some of the consequences spoken of in the presentation won’t happen tomorrow, doesn’t mean they won’t happen at all.

Also saddened by your comment: “the Church is clearly on the wrong side of equality on this issue”. Did you hear the comments given on tolerance? It has nothing to do with equality. It’s not a fact of life, it’s a choice of behavior. We can be tolerant, but don’t need to condoning. Love the sinner not the sin. If these teachings aren’t ringing true to your soul then I’m unsure why you’re a church member at all?

God, through his Prophets, draws the line in the sand. If you’re not on his side of the line, you’re on the other.

9LDS4gaymarriageon 10 Oct 2008 at 10:01 pm

Laura – Dave, I am saddened by your accusations of lies and deceit of the apostles. If you truly sustain the the apostles, seers, and revelators, do you not think they have a greater understanding and view of the consequences of this Proposition?

CM – I think SCRIPTURE knows best of all and SCRIPTURE condemns Prop. 8 and AZ’s Prop. 102. The words of the scriptures overrule the words of the prophets…according to the prophets.

10Davidon 11 Oct 2008 at 12:18 am

Just some clarification on the earlier comments about the Institute Director in the Wednesday night broadcast. That was not an Institute Director, it was Elder David A. Bednar of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.

Thanks.

11Guy Berryessaon 11 Oct 2008 at 10:29 am

I, too, dropped in on the broadcast the other night, mostly attended (not too well, thankfully) by young families in our local chapel in San Francisco, as I was trying to better understand why the church is working so hard for Prop 8 and exactly what they’re doing. I missed the earlier part of it, including Elder Ballard’s talk (my partner was back East on business and our young daughter refused to go in when we stopped by to inquire about the start time, etc.–and I was afraid to have her hear awful things said about how evil her parents are, so found a neighbor to watch her so I could go). What struck me most was the warnings of how urgent this was to fight for “to protect children and families”, etc., to prevent same-sex marriage (some youth in their video said this was the most important thing they could possibly do in their lives) and then hear an apostle say how vitally essential marriage and raising children are, that it is the purpose of life and the key to a happy life, yet they can’t seem to see the irony of fighting so diligently (and unfairly in deceitful ads, etc. they’re largely helping pay for) to try to prevent that happiness or opportunity for a minority of their brothers and sisters, many of whom are, despite greater odds, already in loving, committed relationships and raising children, including many Mormons like my partner and I and many of our friends. Why is marriage so important for them and yet so important that WE never have it? It seems to me that some blind, extreme prejudice must be behind this crusade, not divine, loving inspiration from a God who I must believe loves all children and all families. I can’t believe God would not support ALL loving families and want us, also “to do all we can” to protect OUR children and the validity of our relationships, just as they think they are protecting theirs from gays destroying marriage and family. Frankly, most of the damage to families I’m seeing these days is caused by the torment the church is causing LDS families with gay members, dividing them bitterly over this issue as they pit them against their own family members, fighting to deny them rights at the behest of the church, and also the families of gay parents, like our own growing family and those of many of our closest friends. Why don’t OUR beloved children deserve the benefits and legal protection that marriage can provide? Many of them were born to straight parents who, for a variety of reasons, were unable or unprepared to raise them and we are blessed to have them join our families. Do the brethren really think they’d be better off left with them, with any mother and father, any two people of opposite gender? Or in foster care? If only they knew the families I know and the love these children share in their families. Or maybe they do know some and are just don’t really care about these kids. Whatever their motivation, it makes me ill to think of the consequences. And, honestly, since when can LDS leaders speak of the tradition of marriage of one man and one woman with a straight face? History is apparently quickly forgotten (or denied). Their very misguided, in my opinion, efforts me sad and angry, certainly frustrated. By the way, I felt like an alien sitting there watching the broadcast…among “my people” on one hand and yet a possibly feared, despised outcast on the other, knowing they may fear for their children interacting with me there, if only they knew who I was! Their fear makes so little sense to me. Sorry for the rant, it just brings up so much…

12Jeanieon 11 Oct 2008 at 11:36 am

Guy,

Thanks for the post. When I hear such stories and reactions, it just furthers my resolve to keep fighting for families like yours. It reminds me that the time spent is worth it. Keep sharing!

13Natalieon 11 Oct 2008 at 12:12 pm

Apparently at this event, they announced a church-wide fast for “Yes on 8″ to take place tomorrow.

Please join me and others in a fast for “No on 8″ tomorrow, Oct. 12. We are hoping to have large numbers of people participate in this fast tomorrow for enlightenment, understanding, and Christian compassion.

Feel free to look here for more information. http://www.new.facebook.com/profile.php?id=620183&ref=name#/event.php?eid=29716898910&ref=mf

14Franon 11 Oct 2008 at 12:33 pm

I’m breast feeding and won’t fast at all…, but if I could, I think I’d fast that EVERYONE can get over themselves and stop painting those with opposite views as bad, evil, unfair and with ill intentions, and that as we all try to love one another, and be believing, and faithful, and follow the spirit to the best of our knowledge, all will be made right…

I feel that I can see both sides of the debate. I can see the pros and the cons regarding gay marriage. But I tire of the lack of tolerance and compassion on both sides of the debate.
Why is it so hard to just believe that everyone has the best at heart and that maybe we all have a different understanding right now of what is the right thing/best thing to do?

I think that in reality none of us really know where the future will take us, and what the actual consequence (or lack thereof) of proposition 8 passing will be. The Church may end up being right. They may end up being wrong…but really, no one knows, neither those who support or oppose it. Only time can tell what the future holds.

15Jeanieon 11 Oct 2008 at 3:19 pm

Fran,

For many of the No on 8 people, its because we have personally experienced the loss of loved ones through suicide, disownership by our families, alienation and even excommuncation from the church of our youth. It’s not as trivial as just getting along. To say that no knows what will happen in the future…many of us have already experienced what happens “in the future” because of the Church’s involvement is something that is a civil rights issue.

16Dave Hoenon 11 Oct 2008 at 10:34 pm

You are right, that was Elder David A. Bednar of the Quorum of Twelve in the video presentation with the college age students. That now makes it three members who have compromised the integrity of the Quorum by asking members to beguile voters on this proposition. Where are the Apostles akin to Elder Hugh B. Brown to stand up and say, “This is without honor! If we can’t stand on our own truths, then we should not participate.” Perhaps there are some Apostles like Elder Brown, but they’ve been overruled. (See Hugh B. Brown in Wikipedia who favored ending the “Negro doctrine” within the Church, nine years before it finally was, but was overruled and seemingly punished for it.)

So where is the honor in using lies, half-truths and exaggerations in obtaining a victory? See Barry Bonds. If proposition 8 passes, it will be a hollow victory for the Church and I know of at least three apostles who might consider doing some repentin’.

17Chino Blancoon 12 Oct 2008 at 8:24 pm

A transcript of the October 8 broadcast has been posted here:

http://kolobcafe.com/wiki/index.php/Talk:Prop8Recording/Full

18Ludlowon 14 Oct 2008 at 2:49 pm

Speaking of Tolerance:
I TOLERATE people with freckles. I understand that it may be something beyond their control whether they get freckles or not. But they could stay out of the sun/light and possibly live a freckle-free life. I want people with freckles to have the same civil rights as everybody else. But people with freckles are just different from everybody else.

I would not be surprised if because of some comment in the Bible about how spots are unclean, that my church would want to limit the salvation options of people with freckles. I would support that whole-heartedly.

Now that being said, do you think for one moment I consider people with freckles to be equal to everybody else?

All the talk of tolerance just highlights how the church considers gayness ‘less than’ or ‘worse than’ the rest.

The church has every right to determine who should be worthy of a temple recommend and that won’t change just because gays can marry, but it has no right to limit the civil rights of Californians. And it ought to stop acting like it’s not being on the wrong side of civil rights, which in my book is an Evil.

19erikon 20 Oct 2008 at 6:02 pm

After reading several of the comments posted above, I’m truly confused at some of the positions expressed. Regardless of all that we don’t know about God’s plan, there are some things that according to our faith we do know. Central to our religion is the fundamental link between God and man through holy inspired prophets. Scriptures are the material evidence of this primary connection, they being written by prophets under the inspiration of God. It is by scriptures and the mouth of prophets that we come to know the will of God.

That being said, this is a church of faith. Just as Jesus required the faith of the sick that they could be healed in his day, he requires our faith so that he can heal us today. Following the prophets is essential for the Kingdom of God to be established in any dispensation. It is not a matter of blind obedience, but rather faithful dedication.

Perhaps the hardest test we face in this life is following the counsel of our priesthood leaders, even when we do not understand or know all of the reasons behind they actions. Our identity as Latter-day Saints is defined by our belief in the restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ through divinely appointed prophets and apostles. Though imperfect they may be, when acting in the name of the church the Lord has promised us we will not be led astray.

If we believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet, truly called and ordained by God, we must necessarily believe that the doctrine that he taught is true, that the line of prophets and apostles from his day to ours has remained unbroken, and that Thomas S. Monson is a true and living prophet today, bound be the Lord to speak the truth, nothing wavering. To try and separate these truths and believe that we can sensor the words of the prophet is to deny the faith, the church, and the doctrines for which it stands.

20Lauraon 20 Oct 2008 at 8:52 pm

Amen Erik.

21MarcLuxon 21 Oct 2008 at 5:24 am

Erik:

Surely you can’t believe that in the unbroken line of apostles there have not been revelations that have been changed and even overruled over time. See Hugh B Brown for starters. Men are human, and can make mistakes even with what appears to be revealed truth.

22admin3on 21 Oct 2008 at 9:11 am

We must be getting close to election day, because with the heated emotions, folks seem to be forgetting our comment policy.

Just a reminder folks that we can debate issues without attacking one another, issuing calls for repentance, or swearing. If you want your posts to get through, please keep that in mind.

We’ll keep this thread open as long as people can treat one another with the respect they deserve as sons and daughters of Deity.

Let us do what we can now to help one another by listening and reading with open hearts and minds, by speaking and writing about our beliefs with respect and by being true under-shepherds for Christ, searching out and comforting those who need it the most.

23Bryanon 21 Oct 2008 at 9:51 am

That revelations appear which show the Lord’s expectation of changed behavior (e.g. the fulfillment of the Law of Moses with the resurrection of Christ, and the consequent change in practices) does not mean that any preceding revelation is/was false. If Hugh B. Brown spoke out against what he thought was a bad Church policy does not absolve us of the responsibility of abiding the counsel and instruction of our Church leaders. The Lord revealed his will definitively in due time. That’s the essence of Church membership. If you don’t believe that, that’s fine. But as Erik alluded, you either believe in the unbroken line of priesthood authority or you don’t. Being a Mormon, but casting aside the Apostles is something of paradox.

The First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve are instructing us to support Yes on 8. Not just a few rogues. I sympathize with those of you that have suffered and watched others suffer because they have grappled with temptation and sin. Surely the Lord is conscious of the pain. But so is the Adversary, and he is, evidently, making the most of it.

24Erikon 21 Oct 2008 at 10:54 pm

MarcLux:

I only mean to state what I understand to be some of the most fundamental beliefs of the Mormon faith.

“We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.” –Article of Faith 9

After the death of Joseph, the quorum of the twelve led the church under the direction of Brigham Young. Eventually, Brigham and the entire quorum were gathered at the same place long enough to meet together, and Brigham proposed that they re-establish the first presidency. Wilford Woodruff was uncertain of the initiative and there was some debate over the issue. At last, in a unified effort, the quorum sustained Brigham Young as President of the Church. The quorum of the twelve has the right and even the responsibility to question and discuss decisions that most be made regarding the Lord’s church. However, when action takes place, it is only by unanimous consent. Hugh B Brown’s position in favor of rescinding the “negro doctrine” was not in opposition to President McKay or the Lord. The prophets had gone to the Lord for decades asking about the issue, and the Lord had not spoken yet. And when the Lord had spoken, the change was promptly made.

Unlike the circumstances surrounding Hugh B Brown, the Lord has spoken on the issue of marriage as stated in The Family: A Proclamation to the World. The Apostles acting on assignment are doing so in unison according to the truths that have been revealed.

25Natalieon 22 Oct 2008 at 9:12 am

Erik,
I think that history has shown that certain announcements by the church often fall by the wayside. For example, the Proclamation on the Family was not the first such proclamation issued by the church. Back in 1875, they issued the Proclamation on the Economy. Part of it states:

“One of the great evils with which our own nation is menaced at the present time is the wonderful growth of wealth in the hands of a comparatively few individuals…. If this evil should not be checked, and measures not taken to prevent the continued enormous growth of riches among the class already rich, and the painful increase of destitution and want among the poor, the nation is likely to be overtaken by disaster; for, according to history, such a tendency among nations once powerful was the sure precursor of ruin. ”

This was signed by all members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve, and was also sustained by the general body of the church; this makes it official doctrine. But how many saints are heeding those warnings? I would love to see these doctrines enacted more fully. I think poverty is a much more serious moral issue than gay marriage. Why has the church stopped speaking up on these important issues? Why don’t members live up to these standards?

Many saints want to claim that gay marriage will tear apart society and bring about the downfall of our country. For myself, I have much more fear for the twin evils of greed and want. Many of us feel dismayed that the church, which has the potential for so much influence, has chosen to direct that influence towards something that takes away the freedom of others.

I find it immensely hard to believe that homosexuals having equal rights is the greatest threat to our morality at this time. Perhaps I wouldn’t be so put off by the church’s stance on Prop. 8 if they were devoting equal attention to other moral political causes that affect far more people.

26Erikon 23 Oct 2008 at 9:41 am

Natalie,

Though I cannot comment with any great knowledge about the specific case which you bring up, I must agree that there are many issues that the prophets have spoken on that we have not lived as a people to their perfection. If it were otherwise, the saints would have established Zion in Missouri and we would never have been required to endure the exodus west.

However, our failure to adhere to the prophets words in one area do not dismiss or justify or failing to do so in another.

27Marieon 04 Nov 2008 at 1:10 pm

Bro. and Sis.

I came to this site to better understand feelings and thoughts that accompany the opposition to Prop 8 from members in the church. I do not live in California, but if I did I would be voting for Prop 8. While I can not speak for others like myself, who would vote like wise, I can speak for myself; and say I WOULD NOT vote, if given the opportunity to vote, for Prop 8 out of hate or malice. Rather I would vote for Prop 8 because I desire to do what the Lord has asked of me. This issue is a delicate one, cutting to the very core of our beliefs, one where there can be no fence sitting. If one understands the mind of GOD and Christ then one can better understand Gods will. If one understands his mind then one understands that HE has appointed leaders to use HIS resources in defending HIS purposes. While I am not in the heads of those who have posted here, from what I have been reading it seems to me that many have forgotten that this IS Gods church NOT the worlds or mens. What the Lord desires of us will not, in most circumstances, be popular or politically correct. God has appointed mouth pieces to speak for him in the form of our First presidency and 12 Apostles. We have also sustained them to their specific callings. The Lord WILL NOT! allow them to lead us astray. If they were to try to do so HE would immediately remove them from their spot. That said I also know that I can personally talk to God and have confirmed by the Spirit those things which I have been taught by my leaders to do. Just as the Lord confirmed to Nephi the dream that his Father had had. When Nephi asked to know and understand what his Father had been shown the Lord did not say “no, I don’t think so you’re just going to have to rely on what I told your Father”. He taught Nephi, through the Spirit, what he had taught his Father. Keywords being “through the Spirit”. Which would imply that the petitioner would need to be prepared to receive and listen to the Spirit and its promptings. My point being, that so far as knowing whether supporting prop 8 is truly the mind of God all one has to do is EARNESTLY pray to God and then PONDER over in their hearts to receive the burning in their bosom(chest) if this is Gods will. If then having received this confirmation it still can not be understood why the Lord would want one to vote for something that seems to be hateful, ignorant, outdated or any other number of other terms that could be used; one must then ask themselves do they trust him or not. I respect that this is a very personal decision and that in the end all will vote their mind and/or their conscience but I pray that those who who read this post will be open to accepting my challenge and ask the Lord for themselves in voting for Prop 8 if it is right and then asking for the strength to vote based on their response