Gladiator or Skater

If Mr. Luhrs wants to know what Mr. Hledenís thoughts are on the Arnesonís then maybe he should ask Pete before posting a view on his behalf? If Pete though they were as bad as you, then why does he have drives on order?

You think an Arneson is difficult to dock, and mind you that would only be an issue if were true and the boat was only used for continuous docking, but itís a B.S. statement. Drive one and see for yourself. There are Marinaís all over the world with boats in their slips and Arnesonís on their transoms.

Want some experience with a new style 32í Skater with Arnesonís, call one Mr. Jeff Munchen in Cincinnati OH, 513-678-1320. He has this exact boat. Or ask Merlin 540.

As for fixing the drives and using a rudder, step into the new millennium. There has never been a more irrational beast made than a cat with a rudder, regardless of whose device turns the propellers. Docking? Turning? Slow speed maneuverability? Not!

The rhetoric of they are fine for a turbine but bad for a piston engine is an oxymoronic statement to say the least. The boat does not know what is inside the sponsons so why would the drive not work with a piston engine but work extremely well with a turbine?

Think they donít work well with a turbine? Call ITS, in New Jersey call Mr. Fusco, or Mr. Copeland or Mr. Callan. There are far too many success stories to be considered a one off fluke.

You need to look at the exact issues you stated, the steering geometry has been changed, the boats dock well and they run well with or without the aid of Rocker Plates. Hell they even work on a Chris cat! (Mark Cooper out of Vassar MI)

By the way, I sell 99% of my Rocker Plates to Mercury outdrive customers!

Now if Trader1 wants to use a Mercury product, then fine. It will cost more $, eat more HP, weigh more, place the vertical CG another foot higher in the boat and still not steer or handle any better than an Arneson.

[i] But, I can not believe the 36 and 40 Skaters were running hard and couldnt keep up. [/B]

The difference was this wasn't a race (technically) it was a Poker Run. I didn't say the Skaters were running hard, we actually don't know how they were running. I'm sure they were running somewhat hard, but not like they would in a real race. They had a boatload of people in their boats also. Most people run their boats hard when only 2 people are in the boat as opposed to having a full boat. That could make the difference.

Originally posted by Rik If Mr. Luhrs wants to know what Mr. Hledenís thoughts are on the Arnesonís then maybe he should ask Pete before posting a view on his behalf? If Pete though they were as bad as you, then why does he have drives on order?

You think an Arneson is difficult to dock, and mind you that would only be an issue if were true and the boat was only used for continuous docking, but itís a B.S. statement. Drive one and see for yourself. There are Marinaís all over the world with boats in their slips and Arnesonís on their transoms.

Want some experience with a new style 32í Skater with Arnesonís, call one Mr. Jeff Munchen in Cincinnati OH, 513-678-1320. He has this exact boat. Or ask Merlin 540.

As for fixing the drives and using a rudder, step into the new millennium. There has never been a more irrational beast made than a cat with a rudder, regardless of whose device turns the propellers. Docking? Turning? Slow speed maneuverability? Not!

The rhetoric of they are fine for a turbine but bad for a piston engine is an oxymoronic statement to say the least. The boat does not know what is inside the sponsons so why would the drive not work with a piston engine but work extremely well with a turbine?

Think they donít work well with a turbine? Call ITS, in New Jersey call Mr. Fusco, or Mr. Copeland or Mr. Callan. There are far too many success stories to be considered a one off fluke.

You need to look at the exact issues you stated, the steering geometry has been changed, the boats dock well and they run well with or without the aid of Rocker Plates. Hell they even work on a Chris cat! (Mark Cooper out of Vassar MI)

By the way, I sell 99% of my Rocker Plates to Mercury outdrive customers!

Now if Trader1 wants to use a Mercury product, then fine. It will cost more $, eat more HP, weigh more, place the vertical CG another foot higher in the boat and still not steer or handle any better than an Arneson.

Originally posted by dreamboater Sounds like it was a fun ride, any pics?

I have some video footage from a helo.

To answer your other questions about the cats, I am not sure how hard they ran that day. We passed the 36' tall deck Skater and did not see him again. He is running 500's for the record. He ended up breaking a drive sometime after we passed him. The 40' I never saw. I actually was expecting to get passed by him, but it never happened. I saw him at the start and that was it. i know some of the cats decided not to run to the island because of the rough water. They run up the coast to the third stop instead.

I have run at Havasu with both of the above boats in other poker runs, and they have always run hard. I would think this run would have been no different.

I don't know what else to tell you, that is what happened that day. It was rough enough that I snapped off both of my bilge pumps. Some of the other boats had interior pieces that were broken. Rough day for sure.

Originally posted by Rik If Mr. Luhrs wants to know what Mr. Hledenís thoughts are on the Arnesonís then maybe he should ask Pete before posting a view on his behalf? If Pete though they were as bad as you, then why does he have drives on order?

You think an Arneson is difficult to dock, and mind you that would only be an issue if were true and the boat was only used for continuous docking, but itís a B.S. statement. Drive one and see for yourself. There are Marinaís all over the world with boats in their slips and Arnesonís on their transoms.

Want some experience with a new style 32í Skater with Arnesonís, call one Mr. Jeff Munchen in Cincinnati OH, 513-678-1320. He has this exact boat. Or ask Merlin 540.

As for fixing the drives and using a rudder, step into the new millennium. There has never been a more irrational beast made than a cat with a rudder, regardless of whose device turns the propellers. Docking? Turning? Slow speed maneuverability? Not!

The rhetoric of they are fine for a turbine but bad for a piston engine is an oxymoronic statement to say the least. The boat does not know what is inside the sponsons so why would the drive not work with a piston engine but work extremely well with a turbine?

Think they donít work well with a turbine? Call ITS, in New Jersey call Mr. Fusco, or Mr. Copeland or Mr. Callan. There are far too many success stories to be considered a one off fluke.

You need to look at the exact issues you stated, the steering geometry has been changed, the boats dock well and they run well with or without the aid of Rocker Plates. Hell they even work on a Chris cat! (Mark Cooper out of Vassar MI)

By the way, I sell 99% of my Rocker Plates to Mercury outdrive customers!

Now if Trader1 wants to use a Mercury product, then fine. It will cost more $, eat more HP, weigh more, place the vertical CG another foot higher in the boat and still not steer or handle any better than an Arneson.

I have spoken to Peter and he.....Like Fabio Buzzi..and others ........is always looking for an alternative to Mercruiser......Hence his forays into Sage drives..and etc. The bottom line after all of the above is simply this..... From a service, trim range, simplicity, and resale perspective....a buyer will be better off with #6's than Arnesons. I stand by my statement about the docking ability...and the rocker plates. Originally, the key selling point for the Arnesons was simplicity..... to me that has been negated by their dependence on rocker plates...and whether they work or not is irrelevant (and no doubt..they do) ...it is the NEED for them in the first place that points out the lack of "up trimability" in the Arnesons.

I agree that fixed Arnesons, Buzzi drives, BPM's or direct inboards are a better choice for Turbines...for the reasons I stated..........(In fact we used fixed drives in the 4 engine Jesse James 50 footer for the same reasons).... But, for general pleasure boating, with normal power...I'll take a Mercruiser.....and the 60 year commitment, service network, engineering, and experience they bring to the party.

Finally.......I don't sell Mercruisers.......nor any other drive..... Am I right in assuming that "Rik" is a salesman for Arneson? If so........ objectivity and profitability MAY create a conflict in this dialogue.

One more thing......... Why aren't we discussing drive options in the Cigarette...... After all ..."what's good for the goose......"

Originally posted by cigracer38 More like T2x doesn't know everything...

Nothing is worthy besides the ellusive Shadow Cat to Rich. No bias there...

Actually.....I passed on a chance to get a Shadow Cat for restoration...in favor of my 28 Skater. I have never stated that nothing is as worthy as a Shadow Cat...it was simply one of the first successful offshore cat designs(but is now outdated.....like me)...and anyone who can read knows my slogan on OSO has always been...... "Buy A Skater". It's interesting that even as the builder of the Shadows, I am open minded enough to accept that other designs have eclipsed it. Funny how Cigarette "loyalists" lack the same objectivity.

For the record...the Arneson drives came out at the same time as the Shadow Cat...The #6 drives were introduced 6 years later....and, once Weismann dry sumped them..... the gear drag efficiency issue was basically solved.

T2x............. At this point, I will bow out in favor of the "experts"

Originally posted by T2x Actually.....I passed on a chance to get a Shadow Cat for restoration...in favor of my 28 Skater. I have never stated that nothing is as worthy as a Shadow Cat...it was simply one of the first successful offshore cat designs(but is now outdated.....like me)...and anyone who can read knows my slogan on OSO has always been...... "Buy A Skater". It's interesting that even as the builder of the Shadows, I am open minded enough to accept that other designs have eclipsed it. Funny how Cigarette "loyalists" lack the same objectivity.

For the record...the Arneson drives came out at the same time as the Shadow Cat...The #6 drives were introduced 6 years later....and, once Weismann dry sumped them..... the gear drag efficiency issue was basically solved.

T2x............. At this point, I will bow out in favor of the "experts"

Understand that myself and others value and enjoy having your extensive experience here to clairify gaps in the past and first hand knowledge in this exclusive sport.

Your opinions clearly point to the fact that if its a vee, it's a joke. When it comes to cats you barely give credit to most cat builders as well, even Skater. Maybe it's just the way you type it, but that is the message I receive.

As a Cigarette "loyalist" I am very objective much to your disbelief. Obviously when I want something new I look at all of the boats in Cigarettes class and compare. I am on my third one, meaning no one has shown me a reason to switch. Although, my friend Terry Sobo makes it hard at times .

No one wants you to bow out. We know your an expert. We just don't need to be reminded every time you post.

You have missed my point; the Arneson's do not require the use of the Rocker Plates in order to work effectively. The Rocker Plates are mostly used as a more efficient means of lowering the bow in the rough water conditions than a bow lifting device. Simply put they donít cost the boater as much speeds as a conventional trim tab and the bow lift can be a good at times.

The Spectreís, Nortecís, Skaterís, Hustlers and such are not using any Rocker Plates; instead they are using the Mercury K-Planes. (How can that not be considered a Band Aid is a totally different issue)

Now up trimability, there is no positive trim on an Arneson, but this is true for any surface drive in the world today. Once a propeller is at the surface you cannot trim it higher to gain a mechanically leveraged positive position in the water. This applies to Bravoís, Buzziís and Arnesons fixed or steerable.

With the SSM#6 drives as well as Arnesonís , when the drive is trimmed higher than the surface level, the propeller comes out of the water and they merely start slipping or blowing out as some refer to it as.

With todayís boats having been designed to run more efficiently with a higher X dimension and not needing to rely upon ďPositiveĒ trim from an outdrive, they really have designed a boat that runs very well with an Arneson Surface Drive in the process. This no more so obvious as with Fountain Powerboats, but with others as well.

Catamarans have historically run well with out the dependence of positive trim, hence the reason people say the Arnesons work well on Cats. On a Skater with SSM#6ís you will find that the fastest speeds are obtained with the drives in negative trim position. Mr. Gilbreath will even confirm this. This is basically the same propeller shaft angle as an Arneson. Go figure??

While it is true I own Arneson Industries and there is an obvious bias but not negativity towards others products. Your History with Mercury has shaped your opinion more strongly.

Through our relationship with Twin Disc, we also have a world wide presence for serviceability. Believe me, with the Internet and UPS the world is getting very small.

This thread is about the objective advantage/disadvantages of two boats. Seeing as he designed it, I wonder what Mr. Peterís thoughts are on the Cig with Arnesons???