Monday, November 2, 2009

I think that since I've started playing WOW, my use of the phrase WTF has increased (perhaps even exponentially Jess). Today, a good WTF and a bad WTF.

Good WTF: You guys are impressive

I think that I've mentioned before that once you start blogging, comments become like crack, dangerously addictive. Well, I will admit here that another piece of blogging that I quite enjoy checking up on from time to time is my site statistics. Specifically, I am intrigued by those of you who choose to check out this blog. And do you know what I find? I find that you guys work at the world's top universities, banks, technology companies, consulting firms, and government agencies.

Its very very impressive, though I mean come on, of course you folks are smart if you choose to read this blog (hahahaha). I've had Blizzard addresses pop up as visitors, which is always interesting. I've also had more scary addresses pop up, including the FBI and IRS. I swear! I'm current on my taxes and I am totally innocent!

But seriously, when the media or general public talks about gamers being these depressed and overweight losers playing in their parents basements, I kind of want to show them how widespread we are in society, at some very very impressive institutions. We are taking over the world! Muahahaha.

Bad WTF: Chromosome beat down

That first subject was sort of a good WTF, this is a more WTF WTF. Let me just show you a screenshot from the recruiting info of one of the top guilds in the world:

Ok first you notice the guild name, then you see the first requirement, "Have a Y chromosome (seriously, no chicks allowed)". Seriously? Guilds still purposely exclude female players? Why? Is it really around pure skill or are they so scared about girls creating drama? Girls oohing and aahing over the pretty kitten or the dress? The boys getting distracted by the female on vent? Or are they really scared that we will actually outplay them?

I really really just don't get it. I am not a serious 25 man raider, but its still a slap in the face to see something like this. I wish my second X chromosome could kick these guys' Y chromosomes asses.

63 comments:

2) I suspect no girl would want to be in that guild. I suspect the girl hate is strong in that one.

3) I work at a bank. I usually feed read your blog making it easier to gather all the info I need in one place. Plus, I don't want to be pulled in for questioning when the FBIRS comes for you. Oh..wait.

Not defending NCA, as I don't agree with that sort of stuff, but aren't there female-only guilds out there like Daughters of the Horde and Daughters of the Alliance, or are those in name only? I believe that's the case.

http://www.dota-guild.com/

(full disclosure - my wife's in DotA and DotH, but I'd heard of them before)

I tend to notice that a lot of high end guilds are extremely elitist and picky in general, but I bet they would have a hard time denying an amazing female WoW player just because of her gender.

I would bet 800g that the GM of No Chicks Allowed started the guild as a joke between friends, not in hopes of becoming a super elite raiding guild, which would explain the pretty silly name.

As a girl, I'm not too offended by that. It's not as if they're the ONLY good guild on that server. Like I said, if they're really hurting for an amazing resto druid, I'm sure you would get a desperate whisper, regardless of gender.

There's this guild on my server called "Affirmative Action", and I seriously hope that it never becomes a serious raiding guild, because I would literally never walk around major cities with that horrible tag under my name. But, there's no telling which guilds will be great and which ones won't.

@For the pie: Don't worry, I will not mention your name if the FBI/IRS comes questioning.

@Grimmtooth: Here is what I see as the difference. Dota and Doth seems to be centered on sisterhood and girls playing together... guilds like this seem to have the feeling of overtly excluding women. To me there is a difference.

@Tristan: I agree with the first comment on your post, that if you're ok with it, then so be it.

Re: Andy's comment, here is a perfect example of why regardless of explanations like those of Tristan, the attitude of guilds such as NCA irritate me.

What exactly is Andy trying to say here? Is he publicizing the fact that NCA has achieved Tribute to Insanity? But by making that point on my post, a post that questioned their no female policy, is he saying that they got this achievement because there are no females? Justifying the policy? Because females would make Tribute to Insanity unachievable?

@Meagan: I question whether such guilds are really joking about their policy. I do not think NCA would accept a female whatsoever.

These guilds joke around about this policy. But I don't think I've ever seen one serious or justifiable answer around it. Folks often say well that is the guild's policy but I don't agree with it but I'm still in the guild.

@Members of NCA: I guess I should not be surprised that you'd come across this post and that you'd post it on your guild forums (geez I love that statcounter)

I'm wondering whether NCA's forum post linking to this post is something of the effect of: "Haha guys, look at this silly little girl who is bitching about NCA. She's so jealous. I bet she sucks as a resto druid anyway. Oh but nice publicity"

Actually, my response was pretty much the same as the comment I made here with the added statement: "In an anonymous world, male and female do not mix."

And that's what it comes down to. Sure, in my experience I've come across many inadequate female players, though I'm not nearly sexist enough to base a recruitment policy strictly on that. But, anytime I've raided in a coed environment, it turns into one of two things: an attention whoring female begging for people to look her way or half the raid making sexual innuendo anytime a female speaks. Neither of these is a something I desire in a raid environment both for progression reasons and personal enjoyment.

But I'd hate to disappoint: "lolzzzzz this bitch must be so bad at druid"

@Tristan: And you're saying not one response to your original post had any of my suspected sentiments? Screenshot or it didn't happen. Just kidding.

I think I've read your posts before. You seem like a nice guy. Again, its your prerogative whatever guild you decide to join. However like you said in your explanation post, its my prerogative to feel the way I do about it.

"Simply because an issue is a stereotype doesn't necessarily make it incorrect."

Hmmm... so you're saying that the stereotype that girls can't play at the top levels is correct. Right? You've just said outright your book mirrors the cover I've "attempted" to call you out on.

Honestly though, this isn't strictly about NCA... I know there are a ton of other guilds with the same policy. Its just the first guild that caught my eye when I checked out the world of raids recruiting page.

While I do not think (or maybe I hope) that members of such guilds hold such view in real life, I wonder why its ok in game. Because its just a hobby? Because its not "real"? Even though the massively multi-player of it is a huge part of this game?

A very very smart person put it this way to me:

***********************************Replace "chicks" or "girls" or whatever with, say, "black" or "Jews" or "Asians" or "Gays" for that matter and ask oneself if it still sounds reasonable to have a "no ______ allowed" policy for the same reasons (e.g., "in my experience _____ causes drama", or "it doesn't bother me if a guild doesn't allow ____", or "_____ would distract our players").*********************************

"Hmmm... so you're saying that the stereotype that girls can't play at the top levels is correct. Right?"

I never once said that at all.

"You've just said outright your book mirrors the cover I've "attempted" to call you out on."

Since I've never said what you purport I've said, how did you come to this conclusion?

"Because its just a hobby?"

Would you be crucifying a group of guys who choose to have a "guy's night out" for not inviting girls? That would entirely defeat the purpose.

"Because its not "real"?"

It is a virtual reality game after all. You've already stated that you hope we are normal, decent people in the real world; clearly there must be some sort of separation between the two. If we can handle that, why can't you?

"Even though the massively multi-player of it is a huge part of this game?"

That's a very nice and valid point; unfortunately, it has absolutely nothing to do with a female-free guild. Massively multiplayer, as you've mentioned, ensures other options exist.

"***********************************Replace "chicks" or "girls" or whatever with, say, "black" or "Jews" or "Asians" or "Gays" for that matter and ask oneself if it still sounds reasonable to have a "no ______ allowed" policy for the same reasons (e.g., "in my experience _____ causes drama", or "it doesn't bother me if a guild doesn't allow ____", or "_____ would distract our players").*********************************"

Try "guys" instead of "gays", a policy which you've already said you're okay with "because there is a difference". Right?

No one has a right to be in any guild they want, and it's the guild leader's choice whether or not to recruit someone. If they want to be prejudice towards a specific race or gender then that's their problem.

It's not like NCA boasts about the fact that they're successful BECAUSE there's no girls. They simply just don't have them and don't want them.

Plenty of successful guilds have girls, and plenty don't. If a girl is so upset about not being able to join such a guild then look for something better that accepts girls, don't complain about it your blog.

@Anonymous: So what exactly were you referring to when you said "Simply because an issue is a stereotype doesn't necessarily make it incorrect"?

Here's the difference for me. DoTA and DoTH focus on the idea of sisterhood and females wanting to play with each other. Likewise it would be perfectly fine if guilds focused on brotherhood and wanting to play with other guys. The difference in the policy is around the intent.

My issue around guilds like yours arises when the fact that the guild is all male stems from the belief that girls are "terrible and slow" (comment posted by a guildie of yours... does it not bother you that folks you raid with feel this way?) ... a policy that is intended to keep these terribad girls out of the guild.

Another reason that was posted here for your policy was that girls are either "attention whoring female begging for people to look her way" or that "half the raid making sexual innuendo anytime a female speaks".

So because you've been in guilds with guys who can't help themselves but make sexual innuendos to every female, that's why you don't want girls? Because you have these kinda guys? I've heard this explanation before.... and I'm sorry, it's lame.

Finally I guess these guild has never ever had any guild drama whatsoever right? Because only girls create drama? Right? Riiiight.

As a fellow female player, I'm going to be completely honest here. You seem like one of those girls who's exactly the reason why they don't want females in the guild.

1. You appear to like to type really cutesy (and I'm getting the impression that you seem to think very highly of yourself - after all, you do blog for everyone else to see your thoughts). I'm surprised there's no smiley faces plastered throughout your posts.

2. You like to argue, and you probably think you're right, no matter what happens or what is said.

3. You seem to be playing to the fact that you're a female who plays video games, and I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that you do this a lot. "Look! This guild doesn't want female players! Pity my sisters and I because this is so so unfair!"

4. No Chicks Allowed is actually a pretty funny guild name, sorry if you take offense. I find it rather hilarious, and I'm not sure why you or any other female should be up in arms about this. Don't like it? Start your own guild and name it whatever you want. 'No Dix Allowed', perhaps? Haw haw u c wut i did there?

There's been other guilds, such as Nihilum, that haven't allowed females into their guild. People get over it; NCA isn't the first and they aren't going to be the last, either.

5. There's worse guild names. 'Sapped Girls Cant Say No' is pretty offensive, any guild name with NAGAZ in it is more offensive. There's no harm or slur going on by not allowing girls in their guild.

6. I can say, with confidence, the vast majority of female players are in fact terrible. Stereotypical? Yes. But it's also true.

tl;dr: lighten up and calm down. I understand where you're coming from but you're way up in arms about it.

@Anonymous: OMG you exposed my ruse! I am Snottydin! But seriously, ask any of my guildies or anyone I raid with... cute and K could not be further from each other.

When a female explains their side or views on this... she's a bitch who likes to argue. I've been amused by how defensive the folks in NCA are over this. I would almost rather you just outright own it, "Girls suck and cause drama" instead of trying to hide that sentiment.

And bloggers who knew we all thought so highly of ourselves by blogging? lawl

For the No Chicks Allowed thing, yeah. My boyfriend and I were looking at new guilds cross-realm a couple months back and we ran across the guild. Perfect times, great raids, sound like a all-around great guild...except the portion where I have less of something down below and more of something up top.

However, back when my priest was level 58 and ZG was all the rage, I had a guy who lead one of more successful raids on the place pull me along - a lowbie. I didn't know it was because I was the only female in the "raid" and half the group had a crush on my young-sounding voice.

K - I can see where you are coming from, and 100% agree with you. However, you also need to understand that everyone should have the freedom of expression. If there are a bunch of 12 year old boys who are intimidated by being outplayed in a computer game by girls (yes, boys are intimidated by girls at that age), then things like NCA get formed to help them cope. It is how they express themselves. Yes, it may seem discriminatory on the surface, but it's usually just how they cope with low self esteem. You won't be able to talk sense to them. The more you counterpoint, the more they will fight back for the sake of argument rather than discussion. You just have to wait for them to grow up. /shrug

@Anonymous: Heh, I'm not mad, quite amused by all of this. Quite amused by the 15 members of NCA needing to check this post every 30 minutes. Quite amused that a female actually expressing concrete points on her point of view makes her defensive and needing to calm down. Quite amused that when I respond to snarky comments with snarky responses, I'm a heated bitch.

If you were to actually read all the comments, you'd see where I think they are being defensive. Though I thought you said tl;dr? Did you even read everything? But we are clearly not going to agree with each other, so whatever.

@Nico/Apparati: Aww. Nico's just being his sweet self, though he already knows that I do not need a e-knight.

Though if by bitch, you are referencing a female who doesn't take any crap and can actually rationally express her views, which (shock!) do not agree with you, then I wear that label very proudly.

@Nianal: Definitely more of something up top ;)

@p45qu4l3: http://www.worldofraids.com/recruitment/guild.html#VJX;

@YJMark: Ya, I totally agree that everyone has the right to their opinion. And that includes my opinion, which calls bullshit on such policies.

But the sad part is that I do not think these guilds are full of 12 year old boys. Its easy to dismiss them as such, but I really don't think they are.

I honestly think that half of them are adults who do not think girls can play well and that girls cause drama (even when much of that drama is due to inappropriate behavior from the guys). The other half are guys who don't quite agree, but go along with it because its a top guild and don't really care that their guildies hold such views.

Finally, I know I'm not going to change their minds here. But given that I'm sure there are a ton of comments on their private guild forums regaling me with tags like stupid bitch, they comment here on my blog, I'm gonna speak my mind. Ask my guildies... I'm difficult like that.

The only derogatory comment on our forums thus far has been made by Gaffer, out of frustration for you not responding to his first couple of posts.

Also, the name of our guild is not "Girls can't play video games," "Girls are inferior," or anything else defamatory. Every girl in the guild out of which NCA was formed, was terrible at her class and/or (in most cases 'and') was a source of bullshit drama. When Wrath started, we cleaned the slate - and cut several male players as well.

On this server at least, and at least in our experience on this server, while all girls may not be terrible, the vast majority have proven to be sub par. It's a more efficient strategy from our standpoint and considering the level of play to which we try to hold ourselves and our guild name, to forego trying out 25 extra applicants out of whom empirical evidence suggests 23 will be a complete wash.

Plus, the name NCA gives something for other guilds and players to focus their time and attention on addressing while we kill internet dragons.

You can blame K for this, or you can look at the other three fingers pointing back at.... yourselves!

I'd stop with the (non-lolbutamused) grin there, but I can't help but also say: If you think pointing out immature, rascist or otherwise offensive guild names are reasons why NCA 'isn't so bad' is laughably poor logic. Those guild names should be banned. NCA is, well, still an inappropriate name and an inappropriate guild policy, and pointing at other guilds doesn't change that.

Hi K! For those of you who do not know K, she is a very smart, funny woman who is also an excellent WoW player. The best tree I know! I do not appreciate how she has been talked to or treated here.

I think that the guild we are talking about and others like it are ridiculous, but I also think they have a right to exist. I am a woman who plays WoW, and I know I can play just as well as anyone in these guilds. And as a matter of fact, I know many top guilds who are full of women. There are good and bad players and it isn't based on whether or not you have a penis. I do think you should be comfortable in your guild, and if these men are more comfortable without women then thats fine, really too bad for them, but fine.

I think its best to agree to disagree here, I'm not sure anything can be solved when words like bitch start getting used. I think the guild has spoken for itself by concerning themselves with this blog and trash talking someone, and someones friends for having a different opinion.

@Rickyho: I did not respond to Gaffer's first comment because it was just a sarcastic joke. I did refer to what he said in his second comment in subsequent comments of mine by quoting specific lines, thinking he'd comment back.

But I'm so sorry Gaffer has felt left out.

So @Gaffer: tell me this. Without females, you've never ever had guild drama right? Because only females cause drama right?

@Hinenuitepo: Forums type drama... lol. Sigh but lol.

@Beru: I was definitely interested in hearing what you thought about this as a top raider yourself. But yeah... you start putting down thoughts/comments and you start spinning in circles. And nooooo! Don't keeeelll meeee!

@Rappie: You're right, of course these guilds have a right to exist. I guess I called such guilds out on their policies because well I am a troublemaker. /sigh

Well, so many of my thoughts here were somewhat angry from the way some of posters were treating you on YOUR BLOG...I mean how dare you post YOUR thoughts on YOUR BLOG, right?!?!

The level of rudeness made me fairly hot under the collar...and sometimes when I'm mad I find it best to just bite my tounge =)

However...I did a post related to this back in June where I dealt with the issue of discriminating guild membership based on age and gender. If you want to get a bit of a feel for where I stand, you can find it here: http://fallingleavesandwings.wordpress.com/2009/06/05/this-guild-has-been-rated-nc-17/

The post is old...so if anyone gets it in their mind to troll it, it's likely that there will not be any response from me...so don't waste your time.

@Beru: I do feel bad that I singled out NCA as a guild on this post. That was not my intention. I just happened to see that guild recruitment page and just instinctively blogged about it. In retrospect I probably should have talked in more general terms because there are a number of other guilds who run themselves the same way.

I love Tam's last comment on that post of yours that said that we should just all be trees. That Tam cracks me up.

Speaking of Tamarind, I amuse myself by the fact that I've been described as a Snottydin of sorts on this comment thread. lol lol lol! girl irl! :):):):):)

When I found out about NCA, yeah, I was a little annoyed. But I figured that if part of their reasoning was "half the raid would be hitting on the girls" then I wouldn't want to be in a raid like that anyway, and the only girls who would are the ones included in their other half of the reasoning, the attention-seeking dramatics. I've personally been on the receiving end of such attention, and it's annoying as hell when I'm trying to give strategies or explain assignments.

The sad thing is, they possibly could have met some very good girl players, but they would never know. I certainly don't announce my gender to the WoW community at large (hell, most of the time I'm referred to as "dude" or "man" or "guy" by pugs and the only correction they receive is from other people), and unless I'm in a vent of majorly friends or I'm leading a raid, I don't speak. I even have a bunch of male characters (love my Tauren and Undead).

It's a shame their solution is to exclude the potentially innocent person being targetted by the drama rather than those who create the situations. That's probably the underlying issue here; not that girls aren't allowed, but rather because some guys won't mature and some girls don't know when to stop flirting and DPS.

Did make me laugh a bit to see some of them getting all hot and bothered over a simple blog post. I'm not quite sure who's trying to convince who of what, but I do know that neither side is really going to be convinced of anything. The debate is going on too long, and it's not really even a debate; you have to have the possibility of change for a real debate to occur. It's just people firmly entrenched on "their side" trying to convince someone they're wrong.

I'm glad you've written this, K, and I'm glad you're not letting anyone push you around about what you can or cannot write or how you can or cannot feel about this.

For the record, I am one of the officers and the raid leader of DotH, one of the two females-only guilds that were mentioned by Grimmtooth initially. I think NCA's name is stupid, but of course it's their prerogative what kind of guild members they allow.

It just boggles my mind that it's because females are subpar players. I can understand the drama argument, when genders collide it can get awkward. In DotH, we have very very little drama, so if hardcore guilds complain about girls bringing drama, I think hormones on both sides are to blame. :P

I know plenty failwhale male players, I know plenty fantastic female players. To categorize girls as lesser players is unfair and not based on reality. It just means they lack the patience to run girls through their trial sieve.

Ahh K. You are stirring up another hornet's nest eh??? Thank you, it made my lunch hour much more entertaining.

NCA is a stupid name. The assumption that females cannot play WOW effectively is an ill informed view that probably masks issues of personal/ego insecurity (notorious in males...there is my stereotype ;>} ). Regardless, I think they have the right to it. At the same time, they should expect to be called out on it given that it's such a ridiculous name and premise for a guild.

And a comment for all of you Anons....You nutless wonders, ball up to your opinions. K may be a female, but at least puts her cajones out there when she posts.

I am late to the controversy party! Alas! It probably goes without saying that I agree with you - and I do believe there's a genuine difference between female only guilds and male only guilds. First of all, I can completely understand why female gamers would want a safe space from all this *fucking bullshit* but as the dominant group, and the priviledged one, male gamers have no right to protest that they are justified in perpuating the very behaviours that make gaming such an unequal space.

And on other a note, I am hopping mad that some pustulent wanktard of an anonymous commenter has come to your blog and dared to, well, yes, accuse you of being Snottydin. I'm glad that you're amused, and, on one level, yes, it is kind of amusing in the sense of being a judgement so patently unfounded it's ludicrous but ... my mind is totally boggled.

Lol, that anon guy is so right! Keredria is totally the sort of girl they wouldn't want. I mean, she doesn't blush or flirt with the boys to make them feel better about themselves or anything. I bet if they met me they'd totally change their policy. I can solo-heal just about anything. *shy smile*

I found this post from a link through critical QQ, sorry for the necro.

"Here is what I see as the difference. Dota and Doth seems to be centered on sisterhood and girls playing together... guilds like this seem to have the feeling of overtly excluding women. To me there is a difference."

There are good and bad female wow players. There are good and bad male wow players. NGA states they will not allow females to join. DOTA pushes the message of females playing together. BOTH are excluding membership based on gender. The intent may be different, but both these guilds exclude people based on gender, so you cannot handwave away DOTA as being different.

Sexism is is the belief or attitude that one gender or sex is inferior to, less competent, or less valuable than the other. So, NGA might be a sexist guild and DOTA might be a non-sexist guild (it is quite difficult to exactly know someones true beliefs). However, since both guilds exclude members based on gender, both are practising sexual discrimination.

Can't believe that a guild would exclude female members! I am a male, but I live and play very happily in a guild run by a woman with quite a few female officers.

Oh, and as to taking over institutions all over the world, this would be being posted from the IP of a major transplant hospital in Melbourne, Australia, except that they block access to "games". It really annoys me that I can't read about my hobby on down-time between cases or during night shift, but my colleagues who follow sport or practice underwater basket weaving can check all the blogs and news sites they like about their hobbies. Hmm - that wasn't meant to turn into a rant. Sorry

Wow, looks like im kinda late to this party, but for what its worth, here's my take on this...

I find the idea of exculding a certain player-base on the assumption that they are "sub-average" or "below-par" to be ammusing and self defeating beyond belief.

However, without wishing to simgle anyone out i find tamarinds statement that "i do believe there is a difference" between a guild that accepts only females on the basis that it creates an environment that is "free of this bull***t" to be equally narrow-minded and offensive.

Women create drama. Men create drama. I'm an officer in Australian guild who has only seen one major piece of drama unfold -- it was by a male directed towards the other males in the guild. Us girlies aren't the only ones who have the ability to cause drama.

We have an extremely balanced guild of males and females. The sexual innuendo flows from both sides.... the difference is we're mature enough to let it all flow in general chatter.

The people who don't have the maturity (whether it be men or women) to be able to handle this without screwing up their raid functionality will probably have issues no matter who they exclude from their guild to "fix the problem".

Personally any guild (whether it be male or female) who excludes the opposite sex just makes things worse.

...and in regards to the "good" wtf of this blog, this is coming from a player who works in management for a lead genetics facility in Melbourne.

What people say about our guild are:4. "Teen boys cause all the drama."

This is what I have personally against DOTA. Stereotyping is NOT cool by anyone. Just because some stereotype against you, does not mean that you have the right to do the same to them. (top part can be found at http://www.wow.com/2009/12/01/15-minutes-of-fame-amazon-grace-how-sweet-these-guilds/)