To Jkoga & Chen Zen Comment that Kata are a waste of time, if you think that fighting is just in the ring swing and countering as hard as you can maybe.

Katas IMHO are just a a dictionary of techniques stored in patterns, but if analayzed can be used for defense in real situations. But not in the pattern of the Kata, you draw the meaning out with the use of the technique used.

For example all my years (not many really) boxing, wrestling or just street fighting neither taught me a counter for attack from behind. In this one incident a person arms around my shoulder prepare to choke. The technique (taught in many KATAS )elbow and punch over the shoulder knocked him back and staggered him so I gained the advantage from his attack from the back. Now after facing him any skilled I had attained could have finished him but instantly doing this KATA technique gave me the advantage.Defense against a weapon like a stick or using these skills to enhance PR-24 development etc.., taken to the street. Taught to others and used successfully All by use of Kata.

Boxing is a face to face SPORT, that can be used successfully in a street encounter. But Karate and all its elements prepares you for the unsuspected and unusually attacks that can happen. As in defense while on the ground or once grabbed etc..

Boxing training is excellent but what could a boxer do attacked from the back except run or try to turn around. Sure he could makes something up that Might work, but he wasn't trained for it. Or teach others to use tools of the trade to defend instead of deadly force/gun. NO.

Lets not put all things that we don't fully understand into a "Does it work in the ring concept" everything that works in a ring is not good. Like having a referee get someone off your a$$, that don't happen in a real situation, You got to do it yourself.

I see Kata no different then Shadow boxings(not as free but the same but really more), its a wealth of information if you know how t use it. Just like a dictionary. Shadow boxing is invaulble and its done by yourself using your imagination to inspire your movements. I shadow box using all ranges even grappling & ground fighting by myself (not in public because I don't want anybody calling the people with straight jacket) it looks pretty ridiculous but I understand what I'm doing. And yes I use a lot of combos that from various Katas in my SB.

Katas are far more valuable then listening to 40-60 yr. old boxers telling the young guys on the bag what their favorite combination was or watching them work a heavy bag. Or still thinking they could fight for a Championship. Off topic but I do get tired of hearing it.

Neko, We have stolen this thread. I invite you to finsih this on another thread. You could call it the "Chen disproves and destroys kata " thread. Just kidding. I dont wish to be to disrespectful to the karateka in their own forum so if you would feel ok doing so we can have the discussion in the JKD forum. Or Here. I leave the choice up to you friend. Be ready.

_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be." Lao Tzu

Their's something I've been wondering for a while that's related to this whole thing:

Everyone's always talking about how the punches in boxing are so powerful and simple and such, however I've never heard someone talk about the advantages of the straight and reverse punches used in Karate and TKD. Could anyone fill me in on the pros and cons of this style of punching?

Everyone's always talking about how the punches in boxing are so powerful and simple and such, however I've never heard someone talk about the advantages of the straight and reverse punches used in Karate and TKD. Could anyone fill me in on the pros and cons of this style of punching?

The potential for power with the typical reverse punch is decent. The drawback is that these are usually trained off the hip which is only going to get you knocked the F' out in a real fight. People who train to actually FIGHT keep their hands up.

I see Kata no different then Shadow boxings(not as free but the same but really more), its a wealth of information if you know how t use it. Just like a dictionary. Shadow boxing is invaulble and its done by yourself using your imagination to inspire your movements. I shadow box using all ranges even grappling & ground fighting by myself (not in public because I don't want anybody calling the people with straight jacket) it looks pretty ridiculous but I understand what I'm doing. And yes I use a lot of combos that from various Katas in my SB.

HI NekoPerforming kata is a means of remembering the techniques.If I could draw a vague parrellel with a sentence from Renzo Gracie who I think is a great fighter. He talks of "The importance of shadow fighting". Kata is a set of techniques on parr with muscle memory. Shadow fighting is practicing solo with all techniques found in the free movement phase in BJJ.

Everyone's always talking about how the punches in boxing are so powerful and simple and such, however I've never heard someone talk about the advantages of the straight and reverse punches used in Karate and TKD. Could anyone fill me in on the pros and cons of this style of punching?

The potential for power with the typical reverse punch is decent. The drawback is that these are usually trained off the hip which is only going to get you knocked the F' out in a real fight. People who train to actually FIGHT keep their hands up.

-John

So if performed correctly a reverse punch has the potential for more power than a boxing punch?

Everyone's always talking about how the punches in boxing are so powerful and simple and such, however I've never heard someone talk about the advantages of the straight and reverse punches used in Karate and TKD. Could anyone fill me in on the pros and cons of this style of punching?

The potential for power with the typical reverse punch is decent. The drawback is that these are usually trained off the hip which is only going to get you knocked the F' out in a real fight. People who train to actually FIGHT keep their hands up.

-John

Yeah and people who train real karate keep their hands up and in front of them when they fight. You assume a lot, still. Most of the older karate guys boxed, wrestled/grappled, played lots of football, fought for real on the streets and so on. Many of them were BBs or high ranks in arts like Judo, fought Golden Gloves, or boxed in the 'hood their entire young lives.

So some person who didn't do any of these things and all of a sudden did an art like JKD or fighting karate or whatever MA/sport thinks they can fight for real? Trust me they are delusional.

This is the truth- you can either fight or you can't. You can either draw or sing or you can't. Most just can't. They don't have a realisitic view of their strengths and weaknesses. They can win in a ring sport, but when confronted with an altercation where there is the element of surprise and no weigh-in, fan-fare or preparation they freeze up and get KO'd by some construction worker from Osaka. 'Nawmean there tough guy...

Get real and quit lumping every TMA type into the category of wackling who can't squabble. You are just as clueless as the folks who thought having a BB in karate or kung-fu meant you could fight. Most that go to learn how to fight without that in them, environmentally implanted in them, will still be weak when it comes to the real deal.

So to reiterate: you can either fight or you can't. Certain activities may enhance your skill-set, but nothing will make a grown person who is past their neurologically/biologically most plastic stages of life a real fighter. Fighters are born, bred then groomed, but if it ain't innate and learned at a young age the best you can hope for is to be in good shape and to learn some combat principles. Luck is your best weapon in a self-preservation scenario if all you do is practice limited fighting and ring sport. It's been proven over and over.

If you'd like to debate, that's fine. Just don't be an ignorant pr*ck and make personal attacks. Think you can handle that? I appreciate your opinon. Unfortunately the way you are presenting it makes it damned near impossible to read, or want to read.

I AM being civil, if I am saying things that you might not want to hear. Try being so yourself and you might get somewhere on this forum. Otherwise, enjoy your short membership.

If you'd like to debate, that's fine. Just don't be an ignorant pr*ck and make personal attacks. Think you can handle that?

-John

What's personal? Where's the attack? And aren't you a mod? Why are you calling me a phallus? Doing the exact same thing you did got me booted from FA.com. What's up with the double standard mods?

Look I never said anything about you specifically. If what I posted hit home and your conscience is calling you out then so be it, but don't blame your self-esteem issues on me. Where I grew up we call that "showing your a--".

I can gandle ANYTHING anyone on here, even you, dishes out. Beyond that I looove to debate. Bring it on...