Author
Topic: The Elder Scrolls Online - planned for 2013 release

Yeah, my first thought was "Huh. Tamriel's big and it might be interesting to freely explore more of that!", kinda expecting this to be like 3-7 Elder Scrolls games glued together. This newer information isn't really making this sound like anything more than a lame, far too late cash-in on WoW's popularity, and it becomes outright pathetic when that's the first screenshot. Not "this is a weird moment someone caught in a trailer", but the kind of image they think will make a good first impression. For fuck's sake.

Unlike DQX though I'm not exactly worried about single player (or at least non-MMO) Elder Scrolls: this started just after Oblivion, Skyrim was still developed, and Skyrim sold a fuckton. Only a complete idiot would turn their back on that entirely, though Bethesda's business side do kind of come off as imbecilic jerks at times.

I haven't exactly been reading a ton of shit about this, so bear with me if I'm asking an obvious question here: have they said anything about how large of a scale they're working with here? Because being able to roam one large Imperial province in MMO form would be pretty interesting, I think.

I've got a feeling they're gonna try to throw in the whole fucking shebang, though. West to east, north to south. It'll be disconnected zone after disconnected zone like Warhammer Online, and it will be horrible.

I don't understand that mentality, in all honesty. If anything, Bioware proved that you can provide the story-centric experience and accessibility of a single player game into an online game with Star Wars: The Old Republic. The game has its flaws, but that was par for the course with Bioware products. I don't see why this game would be any different. If anything, The Elder Scrolls games have been far less story-focused and more open-world, so this should be something of a dream come true.

I'm tired of so many series feeling that they need to cater to either an MMO or co-op multiplayer audience. Sometimes I just want to enjoy a game solo, you know? It's not so much the story that bothers me, I just ike having my OWN world to explore. I'm not saying anything is wrong with them doing an MMO, it's just not for me personally.

I agree. ToR only proved that you can stuff cutscenes into the MMO paradigm. Beyond that, it doesn't really feel anything like the single player Bioware games, if you ask me. Playing solo in an MMO still makes it an MMO. And part of the Elder Scrolls is that feeling of adventure and exploration, and the very nature of MMOs basically negates this, because there's always "content" you have to work towards.

And based on everything they've shown so far, this isn't anything like the Elder Scrolls games-- it's the hot bar-heavy clunkfest that is the MMO genre. I don't understand why he has to explain to you why he doesn't want it to be an MMO? MMOs feel disconnected and clunky when compared to single player-only games, and in no way function anything like a specifically single player experience.

FFXII is a terrible example because, yes-- it has god-awful MMO-style combat and wide open areas-- but also is engineered specifically to be played by a single person at their own pace, and has secrets and areas that don't have to respawn every 15 minutes so the other players can access their "content." What's more, MMOs typically have a disconnect between your inputs and your actions that single player games do not have. Guild Wars 2 is a step away from that, but even that game still has the disconnect.

ToR plays nothing like KOTOR, Mass Effect, or Dragon Age: Origins/2. It looks and feels like an MMO, and has that empty, soulless "full of 'cotent'" feeling that is endemic to the genre. I don't love Skyrim, but it feels nothing like an MMO, and Flamingrift is pointing out that it's likely we'll lose that 'Elder Scrolls' atmosphere in a game that is engineered to funnel players through its "content" to max level. It will in no way be the freeform experience that the other TES games are.

Logged

Friends, waffles, work. Or waffles, friends, work. Doesn't matter, but work is third.

I don't understand that mentality, in all honesty. If anything, Bioware proved that you can provide the story-centric experience and accessibility of a single player game into an online game with Star Wars: The Old Republic. The game has its flaws, but that was par for the course with Bioware products. I don't see why this game would be any different. If anything, The Elder Scrolls games have been far less story-focused and more open-world, so this should be something of a dream come true.

I'm tired of so many series feeling that they need to cater to either an MMO or co-op multiplayer audience. Sometimes I just want to enjoy a game solo, you know? It's not so much the story that bothers me, I just ike having my OWN world to explore. I'm not saying anything is wrong with them doing an MMO, it's just not for me personally.

I agree. ToR only proved that you can stuff cutscenes into the MMO paradigm. Beyond that, it doesn't really feel anything like the single player Bioware games, if you ask me. Playing solo in an MMO still makes it an MMO. And part of the Elder Scrolls is that feeling of adventure and exploration, and the very nature of MMOs basically negates this, because there's always "content" you have to work towards.

This is an absolutely ridiculous argument. The nature of MMOs is nothing more than creating a large-scale game where multiple people can play together. Your idea of what an MMO is seems to revolve around the Everquest/World of Warcraft model and nothing more. All I have to do is point to one of the first MMOs ever made as a perfect example of how this line of thinking is extremely limiting: Ultima Online. There was no "endgame" to work toward, and there was no carrot-on-a-stick gameplay model. While I have not played the game in a long time and have no idea what it is like now, it was a perfect example of what could be.

I look at the MMO as an evolving genre that has plenty of room for growth, just like every other genre of gaming before it. You compare the RPGs of the early and mid-80s where you had little to no narrative, harsh difficulty, and a ton of mindless grinding of levels to make any progress to the RPGs of today, and it's like night and day. MMO game design so far has mimicked a lot of the design that inhabited really old school games, but it is evolving, albeit slowly. Blizzard showed that you didn't have to make MMOs ridiculously difficult. Bioware showed that you can incorporate a larger amount of story. DC Universe Online brought in the button mashing of single player console action games. Baby steps, but it is progress nonetheless. Bethesda had the opportunity to take something like Skyrim and add in a multiplayer component, but they chose the easy way out and decided to play it safe by making a World of Warcraft clone.

Do not confuse a studio's lack of imagination with the inability of a genre to evolve.

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And based on everything they've shown so far, this isn't anything like the Elder Scrolls games-- it's the hot bar-heavy clunkfest that is the MMO genre. I don't understand why he has to explain to you why he doesn't want it to be an MMO? MMOs feel disconnected and clunky when compared to single player-only games, and in no way function anything like a specifically single player experience.

Sure, we know it's nothing like the Elder Scrolls games now. His post was made based off of the mere announcement of the title two days ago, hence why I argued.

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FFXII is a terrible example because, yes-- it has god-awful MMO-style combat and wide open areas-- but also is engineered specifically to be played by a single person at their own pace, and has secrets and areas that don't have to respawn every 15 minutes so the other players can access their "content." What's more, MMOs typically have a disconnect between your inputs and your actions that single player games do not have. Guild Wars 2 is a step away from that, but even that game still has the disconnect.

Nonsense, Final Fantasy XII was a fantastic example. The combat engine is just straight up Final Fantasy XI with tweaks, also featuring monsters respawning in the zones. Modern MMOs are specifically designed to be playable solo at your own pace with no forced partying with other players. As for the disconnect, are you referring to actual "I press a button and something happens on the screen" type disconnects, or are you referring to a disconnect in that "I did this and this is how the game world permanently changed" type disconnect? I suppose it doesn't really matter which it is, because if it's the former, that's becoming a less relevant statement with action-based MMOs out as proof, and the latter has already been addressed in the form of phasing, when implemented properly.

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ToR plays nothing like KOTOR, Mass Effect, or Dragon Age: Origins/2. It looks and feels like an MMO, and has that empty, soulless "full of 'cotent'" feeling that is endemic to the genre. I don't love Skyrim, but it feels nothing like an MMO, and Flamingrift is pointing out that it's likely we'll lose that 'Elder Scrolls' atmosphere in a game that is engineered to funnel players through its "content" to max level. It will in no way be the freeform experience that the other TES games are.

The idea that TOR plays nothing like the other Bioware games makes me laugh, especially when I look at Dragon Age and its gameplay mechanics. You have realtime combat with a hot bar where you press keys for abilities that have their own respective cooldowns, and you even have your standard MMO trinity with warriors that provoke/taunt enemies to hold attention... all courtesy of Everquest gameplay design from 1999. You have NPCs standing around waiting for you to do Fed-Ex runs or kill some monsters and then return for your reward. You create your character and you choose the dialogue in fully voiced cutscenes. The only real difference between Dragon Age and TOR mechanics-wise is that TOR drops the ability to switch party members in favor of mulitplayer support. They both have a defined beginning, middle, and end with their storylines. TOR will have more story content later as time progresses, but this is no different than Tales of the Sword Coast for Baldur's Gate. There's nothing wrong with expansion content.

As for the Elder Scrolls MMO and it lacking the freeform experience, I would agree. The information provided shows that the studio making it has chosen to play it safe and create an unimaginative World of Warcraft clone with Warcraft universe lore ripped out and Elder Scrolls lore shoved in. But your entire post implies that freeform MMOing isn't achievable, when that was achieved with Ultima Online at a basic level fifteen years ago. Bethesda had a chance to make a freeform MMO where you simply go on an adventure and explore the game world. They opted not to. Foaming at the mouth at the mere announcement of the game before any details come out was jumping the gun.

Eh. I'm mostly disappointed by this. I thought I could rely on the Elder Scrolls to stick to its 1-player adventure roots. Ultimately, as long as they continue working on the main series, I guess I don't mind.

That's all I said. I was simply disappointed about the series taking this route. I didn't even comment on the content of the game. I don't understand what has gotten you so riled up, Parn.

That's all I said. I was simply disappointed about the series taking this route. I didn't even comment on the content of the game. I don't understand what has gotten you so riled up, Parn.

It's a separate team though, this is less like being disappointed Dragon Quest X is an MMO and more like being disappointed that Theatrhythm was made. And Elder Scrolls to some extent DOES lend itself well to an MMO, which is why this has become massively disappointing for almost everyone else once details came out.

The game uses MMORPG genre standards such as classes, experience points, and other traditional MMORPG progression mechanics, but they try to present it "around the core fantasy presented by traditiona Elder Scrolls games" such as traveling around and righting wrongs or seeking riches

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For example, you don't necessarily pick up a quest to do the following, but if you kill all the necromancers in an undead barrow, a shade you free at the end will reward you.

That's all I said. I was simply disappointed about the series taking this route. I didn't even comment on the content of the game. I don't understand what has gotten you so riled up, Parn.

It's a separate team though, this is less like being disappointed Dragon Quest X is an MMO and more like being disappointed that Theatrhythm was made. And Elder Scrolls to some extent DOES lend itself well to an MMO, which is why this has become massively disappointing for almost everyone else once details came out.

I hear its not being made by Bethesda, which is probably for the best. I did watch a TGS podcast and a TB mailbox which had some info about it, and apparently it'll be a regular third person hotkey MMO that hasn't really got anything to do with TES games other than being set in the world of Skyrim 100 years prior to the events of the 5th one.

Truth be told, Im not particularly excited for it. If there's any MMO I have even the slightest urge to play, its TOR. Mainly because, as far as I know, its pretty much KotOR3 and can be played almost like a single player game.

I'm not overly excited for this either, really. Personally, I think the title lends itself better to co-op, having people come and join together in the pre-existing single player world. With the MMO, I just think it'll get too cluttered with all those "Chosen Ones' running amok, y'know?

However, story-wise and whatnot, I'm sure that'll be just fine in the MMO atmosphere, especially if they take a page from how I understand ToR does its thing. Plus, Skyrim, for example, is already chock-full of mindless sidequests and fetch quests, so, that's part of the work gone right there.

There is no reason this game shouldn't have a classless skill system and player housing... ...The fact that they think neither of those things work well or don't belong in an MMO annoys me.

Totally agree here. That's a bit disappointing indeed. I do loves me some classes, but I think the system Skyrim opened us to will be just dandy in an online setting, really. Perhaps they think it'll create too many variables for their systems to handle? I know nothing about serves and data and all that jargon, but I assume that storing that info for each character wouldn't be too over complicated to warrant railroading them into a set selection of limited variable?

The only thing I know about this game is that is going to be WoWish, which is an instant turn off. I really don't need an MMO Elder Scrolls game, I just to be able to adventure with a few friends in the elder scrolls world with its clunky gameplay and I would be content