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[ToB] Alternate Vindicators

Wee Jas is not the only deity to appreciate the Sublime Path. Here are variants for all the core deities and a few less-known ones who fit well. Each variant has a different name, different signature school, and different 5th level special ability. The hide skill is replaced in both the prerequisites and the class skill list with the key skill for the new signature school. Devoted Spirit, Stone Dragon, White Raven and the other special abilities remain available.

For example, a Cleric of Kord with 2 devoted spirit maneuvers and 4 ranks in escape artist, 4 in intimidate and 8 in knowledge(religion) could become a Sublime Brawling Vindicator, learn Devoted Spirit, Monkey's Paw, Stone Dragon and White Raven maneuvers, and gain powerful build at 5th level.

I tried to balance stronger disciplines with weaker abilities and vice versa and to make the battle-happy gods a little stronger while keeping everything flavourful, but it's hard to judge power. I hope I did well.

{table]Name|AL|Name|School|Ability
Kord|CG|Sublime Brawling|Monkey's Paw|Treat yourself as one size category larger than you are when it is beneficial to do so (e.g. weapons, grappling). This stacks with actual size changes but not powerful build.
Trithereon|CG|Needed Rebel|Army of One|Immunity to all hostile compulsions, fear effects and moral effects
Corellan|CG|Dancing Guard|Scarlet Rose|Channel spell 3/day
Garl Glittergold|CG|Fortuitous Scoundrel|Coin's Edge|Gain a +20 luck bonus on one skill check a day
Yondalla|CN|Enduring Warden|Dancing Leaf|As an immediate action, you may cause a willing ally within 30 ft to execute a counter you have readied (and granted if relevant). This also counts as the ally's immediate/swift action for the round. The maneuver is expended. Once you use this, you cannot use it again until you have rested for 5 minutes.
Olidammara|CN|Wise Fool|Oncoming Storm*|As a swift action, make sleight of hand check opposed by enemy's spot -- on success, enemy is flat footed against next attack
Procon|CN|Crashing Wave|Ocean Soul|You are unaffected by inclement weather
Erythnul|CE|Blood Encrusted|Infinite Torment|Whenever you kill a living creature with at least one hit die, you heal 1hp for each hit die it had
Gruumsh|CE|Conquering Warlord|Broken Blade|For one round a day, you may add your initiator level to your strength score as a profane bonus
Lolth | CE | Spinning Web | Chthonic Serpent | Gain a special 5th level Boost, Tainted Web, which may be readied and used as normal. This Boost does not count as any Discipline. As a Swift action, create and apply a poison (1d3 Str damage primary, 1 Str damage secondary, Fort save DC 15 + your Wis modifier) which is used against the next target you attempt a grapple check against while using the coated weapon. If the target fails his save against the primary damage, he applies this damage before rolling his own Grapple check.
Ehlonna|NG|Growing Leaf|Gentle Breeze|Animal Companion (as druid 1/3 of initiator level)
Pelor|NG|Burning Light|Desert Wind|Raise Dead 1/day as sla (no material components)
Boccob|N|Dread Scholar|Untamed Essence|Bardic Knowledge (uses initiator level)
Fharlanghn|N|Far Wandering|Setting Sun|Teleport at will
Obad-Hai|N|Wild Lands|Tiger Claw|Hide in plain sight in natural terrain
Mak Thuum Ngatha|N|Incarnate Madness|Far Realm|+2 to all saves you roll and all save DCs inflict you regarding confusion or insanity
Zuoken|N|Polished Blade|Diamond Mind|Proficiency with all Exotic Weapons
Nerull|NE|Death Lord|Narrow Bridge|Summon 6hd of zombies or skeletons as standard action sla 3/day
Vecna|NE|Lost Whisper|Dread Crown|Immunity to all mind reading (including detect evil, detect thought, discern lies, etc.)
Heironeous|LG|Bright Champion|Iron Heart|Divine Grace
Rao|LG|Serene Hero|Knowing Heart|Add Wis to all saves
Bahamut|LG|Standing Claw|Golden Saint|Pick a breath weapon you do not already have from a metallic dragon, use it once per day. Damage and save for a dragon with hit dice equal to your initiator level.
Moradin|LG|Steadfast Stone|Steel Mountain|When using a warhammer and a shield, you may treat the warhammer as two-handed
Murlynd|LG|Holy Six-Shooting|Black Rain**|Conjure 6 units of ammunition for the ranged weapon you are holding as a standard action at will
Wee Jas|LN|Ruby Knight|Shadow Hand|Armored Stealth
St. Cuthbert|LN|Eternal Retribution|Quicksilver Aegis|Karmic Strike
Hextor|LE|Dark Overlord|Ninefold Damnation|Summon 6hd of devils as standard action sla 3/day
Tiamat|LE|Stretching Bite|Rending Scream|Pick a breath weapon you do not already have from a chromatic dragon, use it once per day. Damage and save for a dragon with hit dice equal to your initiator level.[/table]

* In sillier campaigns, Wise Fool Vindicators use Falling Anvil, and their special ability is just feint as a swift action.
** Campaigns without firearms are advised to omit Murlynd altogether, as he is likely to invent them. If that isn't an option, substitute True Arrow and use truly magnificent crossbows.

Re: [ToB] Alternate Vindicators

Why is Zuoken getting Exotic Weapon Proficiency? And is that for a specific weapon? It seems a bit odd. I would have thought something psionic related or monk related, like getting to deal unarmed damage like a monk.

Also, if I can make a suggestion for another one: Mak Thuum Ngatha should have the associated discipline be Far Realm. But I'm not sure what ability would be thematically appropriate.

Re: [ToB] Alternate Vindicators

Originally Posted by JoshuaZ

Why is Zuoken getting Exotic Weapon Proficiency? And is that for a specific weapon? It seems a bit odd. I would have thought something psionic related or monk related, like getting to deal unarmed damage like a monk.

He's the god of monks, and monks use weird weapons. Even his favoured weapon (nunchaku) is exotic. The ability to pick up a psuedonatural gnomish triple hooked hammer (yes, I made that up) and know what to do with it seems very thematic. It isn't very powerful, but Diamond Mind is.

I hadn't heard of either of those deities, how's this:

{table]Deity|AL|Name|School|Ability
Mak Thuum Ngatha|N|Incarnate Madness|Far Realm|+2 to all saves you roll and all save DCs inflict you regarding confusion or insanity
Myrlund|LG|Holy Six-Shooting|Black Rain*|Conjure 6 units of ammunition for the ranged weapon you are holding as a standard action at will
[/table]

Re: [ToB] Alternate Vindicators

Never heard of Zuoken before, but if he favors Monks, then one reasonable hypothesis is that they get the exotic weapon proficiencies for all the exotic monk weapons (Sai, Siangham, Nunchaku, kama).

As for Mak Thuum Ngatha (who I also hadn't heard of), let me throw out a few ideas at random:Confusion as an SLA 1/day, but with the DC scaling as 10 + 1/2 IL + (Ability Score), rather than being fixed.
As above, but a strike rather than a ranged ability
Lose 2 points from all mental ability scores, but DCs for all Far Realms maneuvers increase by 3 (or more).

Re: [ToB] Alternate Vindicators

[QUOTE=DracoDei;7760132]Never heard of Zuoken before, but if he favors Monks, then one reasonable hypothesis is that they get the exotic weapon proficiencies for all the exotic monk weapons (Sai, Siangham, Nunchaku, kama).[QUOTE]

That seems to make sense. (Zuoken incidentally is a god of monks and psionics. Originally in the Greyhawk setting but also appears in some other settings. The SRD "Psionic Fist" monk/psion hybrid is actually the "Fist of Zuoken" from Expanded Psionics with the flavor stripped off.

As for Mak Thuum Ngatha (who I also hadn't heard of)

Destroyer of barriers. In Lords of Madness and shows up elsewhere. Is a god of far realm and aberrations related stuff.

Confusion as an SLA 1/day, but with the DC scaling as 10 + 1/2 IL + (Ability Score), rather than being fixed.
As above, but a strike rather than a ranged ability
Lose 2 points from all mental ability scores, but DCs for all Far Realms maneuvers increase by 3 (or more).

Hmm, all of those sound good. I like the last one particularly well since it fits in the flavor so well.

Re: [ToB] Alternate Vindicators

Originally Posted by dspeyer

He's the god of monks, and monks use weird weapons. Even his favoured weapon (nunchaku) is exotic. The ability to pick up a psuedonatural gnomish triple hooked hammer (yes, I made that up) and know what to do with it seems very thematic. It isn't very powerful, but Diamond Mind is.

I hadn't heard of either of those deities, how's this:

{table]Deity|AL|Name|School|Ability
Mak Thuum Ngatha|N|Incarnate Madness|Far Realm|+2 to all saves you roll and all save DCs inflict you regarding confusion or insanity
Myrlund|LG|Volatile Mind|Black Rain*|Conjure 6 units of ammunition for the ranged weapon you are holding as a standard action at will
[/table]

Re: [ToB] Alternate Vindicators

I just realized I left out the racial deities! Oops. Here are some:

{table]Name|AL|Name|School|Ability
Bahamut|LG|Standing Claw|Golden Saint|Pick a breath weapon you do not already have from a metallic dragon, use it once per day. Damage and save for a dragon with hit dice equal to your initiator level.
Tiamat|LE|Stretching Bite|Rending Scream|Pick a breath weapon you do not already have from a chromatic dragon, use it once per day. Damage and save for a dragon with hit dice equal to your initiator level.
Moradin|LG|Steadfast Stone|Steel Mountain|When using a warhammer and a shield, you may treat the warhammer as two-handed
Corellan|CG|Dancing Guard|Scarlet Rose|Channel spell 3/day
Yondalla|CN|Enduring Warden|Dancing Leaf|As an immediate action, you may cause a willing ally within 30 ft to execute a counter you have readied (and granted if relevant). This also counts as the ally's immediate/swift action for the round. The maneuver is expended. Once you use this, you cannot use it again until you have rested for 5 minutes.
Gruumsh|CE|Conquering Warlord|Broken Blade|For one round a day, you may add your initiator level to your strength score as a profane bonus
Garl Glittergold|CG|Fortuitous Scoundrel|Coin's Edge|Gain a +20 luck bonus on one skill check a day[/table]

Re: [ToB] Alternate Vindicators

Here are some other options to throw in with Skeletons and Zombies (not the Skins, or the Bladders when I do them though... just the mindless stuff).How to get a bunch of Undead out of one corpse: Zooming Brain: Fly past on barely controlled course damaging all mental abilities for a brief duration.

Fat Glob: Slow, weak, but LOTS of HD, and a fatigue effect if it hits.

Rolling Eyeball: Scouts, spies, and roving patrols. Zero offensive capabilities unless taken from something with a gaze attack or eye-rays.

Re: [ToB] Alternate Vindicators

I don't see it. Clerics of Trithereon are often going to be alone. Giving them a fighting style that depends on having followers, or even allies, seems rather dubious.

I could see giving Heironious Scarlet Bravura, and angel-summoning as a cleaner contrast to Hextor, but I'd need to reshuffle a bunch of other things and I'm not sure it would work out. Plus, I don't want to imply that White Raven is the evil version, when many more core-oriented players will still be using it.

I suppose I could bring in Lirr for Scarlet Bravura. I wanted to include her from the beginning, and she has the whole perform(oratory) thing, but it's pretty weak.

Re: [ToB] Alternate Vindicators

I'm glad that this has been done, but does this mean that sublime brawling vindicators get access to one fewer school than other vindicators (as ruby knight vindicators are listed as having access to stone dragon in ToB)

Re: [ToB] Alternate Vindicators

Originally Posted by Sereg

I'm glad that this has been done, but does this mean that sublime brawling vindicators get access to one fewer school than other vindicators (as ruby knight vindicators are listed as having access to stone dragon in ToB)

Good point... anyone got a suggestion for a replacement? I don't think Kord's champions should get short-changed like that, but nothing comes to mind right off the bat... should be something that allows unarmed attacks and/or grappling.

Re: [ToB] Alternate Vindicators

Originally Posted by DracoDei

Good point... anyone got a suggestion for a replacement? I don't think Kord's champions should get short-changed like that, but nothing comes to mind right off the bat... should be something that allows unarmed attacks and/or grappling.

Setting sun? I also think that the discipline currently on the first page (Perfect self) is supposed to be mainly unarmed. Fool's grip could also give the brawling feel.

Lolth | CE | Spinning Web | Chthonic Serpent | Gain a special 5th level Boost, Tainted Web, which may be readied and used as normal. This Boost does not count as any Discipline.[br][br]Tainted Web[br]As a Swift action, create and apply a poison (1d3 Str damage primary, 1 Str damage secondary, Fort save DC 15 + your Wis modifier) which is used against the next target you attempt a grapple check against while using the coated weapon. If the target fails his save against the primary damage, he applies this damage before rolling his own Grapple check.[/table]

Re: [ToB] Alternate Vindicators

Expletive! Long string of expletives that are inappropriate for this forum!

Thank you for catching that, Sereg. Better now than later. I misremembered RKV as having just Devoted Spirit and Shadow Hand. Rechecking the book, it also has Stone Dragon and White Raven. Kord and Hextor need new disciplines.

I like an unarmed or grappling discipline for Kord. I don't see the Fool's Grip you mentioned, but I did find Monkey's Paw. I don't know why that got omitted from Age of Warriors.

For Hextor, I don't see anything better than Ninefold Damnation. We can even keep the summoning power.

Re: [ToB] Alternate Vindicators

Originally Posted by DragoonWraith

{table=head]Deity | AL | Name | Discipline | Ability
Lolth | CE | Spinning Web | Chthonic Serpent | Gain a special Boost, Tainted Web, which may be readied and used as normal. This Boost does not count as any Discipline.<br><br>Tainted Web<br>As a Swift action, create and apply a poison (1d3 Str damage primary, 1 Str damage secondary, Fort save DC 15 + your Wis modifier) which is used against the next target you attempt a grapple check against while using the coated weapon. If the target fails his save against the primary damage, he applies this damage before rolling his own Grapple check.[/table]

I like it.

The one thing I might change is to make the DC 10 + initiator level + wis mod.

Re: [ToB] Alternate Vindicators

Well, I chose 15 because it's supposed to count as a 5th level maneuver. Forgot to say that in the description, though.

By the way, due to the weirdness of breaks in tables, you'll have to change the angle brackets in the <br>'s to square brackets. Unfortunately, they'll revert to angle brackets every time you edit the post, so maybe it'd be better just to take them out. *shrug*

Re: [ToB] Alternate Vindicators

Setting Sun is the wrong feel for Kord... it is thematically about using your enemy's strength against them. Kord is about being stronger than everyone. I agree that Fool's Grip is better. And you see I found you the link. Granted "Tumble" as the associated skill MIGHT be argued to be less Kord-like than "Sense Motive" but I can see a follower of Kord practicing their Greco-Roman wrestling with someone who is trying to get there next rank of Escape Artist, and has no interest in actually trying to win in the usual sense, then accepting when the slippery fellow offers to teach them how to do a somersault in return. Not sure if that is better than whatever else was found however, but I think it does have the "brawling feel".

P.S. And the entry for Lloth is good to go in my opinion. Very good work. Just for flavor, you might say that if Net isn't on the list for Cthonic Serpent associated weapons they can add it... of course that might mean they can ANIMATE the net with their own strength, but that applies almost as much to using a spiked chain at the extreme end of its reach with the grappling maneuvers of that discipline.