And hip-hop... don't get me started on the worst musical style since elevator music was invented.

Hip-Hop has it's legends, just like any genre of music. If you judge it from the stuff you hear on the radio nowadays, you are missing out on a whole lot of really good music. You mentioned Wu-Tang yourself, try checking out some of the really big names in hip-hop, A Tribe Called Quest - De La Soul - Nas - D.I.T.C - DJ Premier and MC Guru - KRSOne - Rakim and Eric B. I'm sure you would change your mind about Hip Hop being the worst genre of music ever.

You said you liked Jazz? Hip-Hop is really not that far from jazz, check out MC Guru's soloproject Jazzmatazz or basically anything with A Tribe Called Quest, they constantly sample old jazz records, and use saxophones or trumpets for the beats.

Just don't ignore hip-hop solely based on the stuff you hear on the radio, like Soulja Boy, Lil' Wayne or G-Unit (Sigh, MOP used to be great, why did they sell out?!), wether or not you fancy the genre is irrelevant, i'm sure you can appreciate the musical quality and skill of the MCs and DJs of the early 90's, this is really not a subjective question, it's a fact imo.

06-12-2008

indigo0086

Jazz is not even close to Hip-Hop. I'm not dismissing it, but just sampling a song of another genre doesn't connect the two. By that account rock is not far from rap since some producers sample rock songs. It's just not happening.

06-12-2008

Mario F.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo1

i'm sure you can appreciate the musical quality and skill of the MCs and DJs of the early 90's

I'll check some of those names you mentioned. I have no doubt, I've missed out. The 90s where mostly a period where my interests where centered on alternative, gothic rock and instrumental styles. Everything from Procol Harum to Nick Cave, Bauhaus and Tom Waits. I've also gained then an interest in rap, but missed out on hip-hop.

06-12-2008

indigo0086

doesn't that whole "rap is the artform, hip-hop is the culture" come into play anymore?

06-12-2008

Mario F.

Not anymore, as far as I can tell. Hip-hop is today completely off its turntable origins. I'm not even sure what is tagged today as hip-hop is indeed hip-hop. It is certainly a culture still though and one I don't want my daughter associated with in any way other than listening.

As for Rap... my opinion is it's dead. With only a very few exceptions, it's no longer what it used to be. Current rappers are unskilled, provide incipient lyrics (or messages if you may), and are constantly swayed towards a much more successful hip-hop money-wise. So much in fact, that you can't hear rap anymore, but instead emceeded hip-hop.

06-12-2008

Neo1

Quote:

Originally Posted by indigo0086

Jazz is not even close to Hip-Hop. I'm not dismissing it, but just sampling a song of another genre doesn't connect the two. By that account rock is not far from rap since some producers sample rock songs. It's just not happening.

Guru did Jazzmatazz in 4 volumes, check out any of those, they are basically jazz with lyrics. Same goes for for Pete Rock and CL Smooth, they had one major hit called When they reminisce over you, which also has alot of similarites with jazz. Hell, Nasir "Nas" Jones's father was a jazz musician, you can clearly hear that when listening to Illmatic or any of his early works. Or how about From 93 'till infinity, with Souls Of Mischief? Or anything that the Hieroglyphics laid their hands on.

The list goes on...

As for the whole "Hip-Hop Is Dead" thing, i agree, it's mostly a dead art. Although some alternative rappers and the underground are still releasing quality material, the mainstream segment has turned into a horrible mash-up between RnB and poor rapping. Common and Talib Kweli are both still kicking, same goes for Jedi Mind Tricks (They peaked with Violent By Design in 1999 though (iirc), but still worth listening to). And rumor has it that The Pharcyde is reuniting at this years Rock The Bells :)

06-12-2008

indigo0086

Jazz with lyrics is also called jazz. I'm just saying if you listen to jazz it's much more than a riff repeated over and over liek samples are. These "similarities" to jazz come about because they're sampling jazz music. I can appreciate the sound, but they are two totally different genres.

06-12-2008

Neo1

Quote:

Originally Posted by indigo0086

Jazz with lyrics is also called jazz. I'm just saying if you listen to jazz it's much more than a riff repeated over and over liek samples are. These "similarities" to jazz come about because they're sampling jazz music. I can appreciate the sound, but they are two totally different genres.

Hip Hop is "black man's music", just like jazz was. Hip Hop is directly related to funk, soul and disco. 3 genres that again, is not too far from jazz, i'm sure that we can agree?

I'm not saying it's the same thing, but considering how many of the classic MCs that uses jazz components in their music, i'd say they are definetly related.

Jazz, largely developed from the blues, originated around the beginning of the 20th century. Improvised jazz singing, called vocalese, is often compared by musicians and music critics to the freestyling of rappers within hip hop. Freestyling has also been said to derive from the art of improvising songs that often distinguishes jazz. Jazz has influenced hip hop greatly throughout its entire history; the scat singing of jazz could be heard in the seminal 1979 old school hip hop song "Rapper's Delight" by the Sugarhill Gang. To this day, jazz musicians such as Herbie Hancock collaborate with rappers, creating a sound that blurs genre lines.

06-12-2008

indigo0086

I don't believe so. I think what makes two genres related are their inherent structure. Rap does not have the same structure as jazz. And Jazz as nebulous as the term is, has basic elements such as improvisation, solos, harmony ad chords that most rap wouldn't have if jazz wasn't sampled. I think you're using the term relate incorrectly.

Also rap is no longer a "black man's music" considering how many producers and rappers are non-black. The same with jazz, jazz encompasses a lot of sub-genres like straight-ahead jazz, bop, swing, Latin-Jazz etc.

The closest relation jazz has to rap I think is fusion. But that's just a genre that was just a composition of several genres.

06-12-2008

Neo1

Quote:

Originally Posted by indigo0086

I don't believe so. I think what makes two genres related are their inherent structure. Rap does not have the same structure as jazz. And Jazz as nebulous as the term is, has basic elements such as improvisation, solos, harmony ad chords that most rap wouldn't have if jazz wasn't sampled. I think you're using the term relate incorrectly.

Also rap is no longer a "black man's music" considering how many producers and rappers are non-black. The same with jazz, jazz encompasses a lot of sub-genres like straight-ahead jazz, bop, swing, Latin-Jazz etc.

The closest relation jazz has to rap I think is fusion. But that's just a genre that was just a composition of several genres.

Hmm, hip-hop DOES have improvisation, very much so.

But regarding the term relate, all i'm saying is that hip-hop has been greatly influenced by jazz, to the point where many of the tracks that are considered classics of the genre, uses sounds and instruments that are otherwise rarely seen outside of jazz, and even goes so far as to sample old jazz records, and collaborate with jazz musicians, such as Bob James and Herbie Hancock.

I used relate as the term to describe this connection, but now that you've mentioned it, i'm no longer sure that was a very good choice of words. Whatever, i hope you know what i mean now.

Quote:

Also rap is no longer a "black man's music"

Well, i'd reckon that around 95% of professional rappers are black. I can only think of a few white rappers of the top of my head atleast, but then again i am by no means an expert on this subject, so i might be wrong..

06-12-2008

lightatdawn

The state of music today? That's something that is constantly on my mind these days as well. There's no doubt that there are some very talented people making some very awsome tunes, but it's fewer and farther between, in my opinion. If you're starving for new music, of recent and great interest to me have been Coldplays new album Viva la Vida (I know, coldplay? But it's worth checking out for sure), Weezers the Red Album, Wintersleep, and Death Cab for Cutie.

As for Hip Hop, I can't help you much there as the Genre has only the odd artist to interest me. I too share your pain on the mindless state of the lyrics. Take solace in the fact that sometimes we all enjoy a pointless little ditty and it's likely that your daughter takes nothing away from it other than a little head bobbing.

06-12-2008

abachler

Quote:

Originally Posted by indigo0086

Your refusal to reference jazz in a music thread makes me vomit ;p.

Never been much of a fan for jazz, I prefer Blues

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo1

Hmm, hip-hop DOES have improvisation, very much so.

I think he means in the musical sense, not the 'made ........ up as you go' sense. just because you can say something that rhymes that isnt necessarily improvisation (again, in the musical sense).

Jazz is related to rap in that both styles were meant to appeal to the masses without necessarily striving for artistic quality. Not to say that either style is entirely lacking in quality, just that that wasnt the main focus of their inception. But as for any deeper connection, I have to disagree, they are two completely different artistic styles. Saying they are related because they both come from 'black culture' is like saying heavy metal and gregorian chant are related because they both come from 'white culture'.

06-13-2008

jEssYcAt

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mario F.

What I would like to know is what you think of the current situation in the music industry or if it is as healthy as it always was and I can't just seem to grasp (much like my parents did) the new age.

I cannot hope to have you answer the second question. But I'm trying to gain some insight as to better understand this generation tastes and with it better follow my daughter own experiences, by exploring this and other themes.

I think there are a number of factors that have made me, my parents, and their parents react with "Today's music is garbage!"

Consider that it has gotten much easier for any Joe Schmoe to produce "music" and get it out to the public. And since we tend to remember the bad things more than the good things, we see more bad stuff out there, hence the music of today being "garbage". There are plenty of talented artists producing good music, you just have to wade through the bad stuff (or the stuff you just don't like) to find it.

Plus, kids don't have the same experience as adults do, and don't see things the same way. Did you ever watch a cartoon as a kid and then watch it again as an adult and wonder "How on earth did I like this??" Nostalgia also plays a role in music, and listening to certain songs is pleasant because it reminds you of things you were doing when you heard it (Alice in Chains "Rooster" reminds me of hanging out with friends and playing D&D, Collective Soul songs remind me of working at a convenience store, etc.).

And then there's simply differences in musical taste. I like a lot of the "repetitive brain injury crap that is typical club music", especially while I am at work doing data entry, or on the rare occasion that I support the legalization of marijuana. ;)

06-13-2008

Neo1

Quote:

I think he means in the musical sense, not the 'made ........ up as you go' sense. just because you can say something that rhymes that isnt necessarily improvisation (again, in the musical sense).

What exactly is the difference? Coltrane improvises with his soprano saxophone, Big L does it with his mouth and a microphone?

How is freestyle rapping not improvisation in the "musical sense"?

Quote:

But as for any deeper connection, I have to disagree, they are two completely different artistic styles.

Well, i have nothing more to add really. If you feel that the musical similarities between the two are just coincidences, then that's up to you.

06-13-2008

P4R4N01D

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mario F.

I listen to today's music and I vomit.

Not all recent music is that bad. Some great music produced afew years ago: Red Hot Chili Peppers, Pendulum's old drum and base (esp granite). I like techno, now and a great beat I should never be able to get sick of. Disagreeable but I feel that lyrics ruin some songs: a good beat is sufficient to make some of the best songs, all the lyrics do is help to remember the beat, like I feel people ruin photos. Rock is good too. I do agree that there isn't much good music coming out. Oh well, thanks to keygenmusic I have plenty of music to keep me going for ages.