Matt, I'm sure you have much more exposure to the kayak end of things than anyone on this forum. Do you get the impression from any number of people from the kayak group that there is interest in racing or in catamaran sailing? I personally haven't heard of any instances where the sail-kaykers have expressed interest in joining in with the catamaran racing crowd. Is this something that Hobie Cat and/or the HCA is looking to persue (including kayak racing classes at HCA events)?

If there is interest from both sides in merging, then I could see the potential benefit. At this point, I personally haven't seen that interest, which makes me continue to question the value of including kayaks in the discussion about a new one-design class.

Yes, we have... as noted by a few here... seen Hobie kayakers express interest in both cats and in racing. It may to take years for these new sailors to develop interest in bigger and faster sailboats. As I noted... We have been developing interest in cats for over 40 years.

I don't think merging kayaks into the Hobie Catamaran Class is going to happen. I believe they are a separate World and we can cater to both interests.

I'll change the title of this discussion... to New Hobie Catamaran "One Design" Discussion to make it more clear as to it's focus.

... and you guys continue to miss the point. Optional hooter, optional jib, optional wings, high-tech A-Class... all neat stuff yet has no business in a ONE DESIGN class. You start talking about optional components or boats that belong to box rule or formula classes and the whole one-design concept vanishes.

SRM - Good point. I don't race much, 1 regatta a year and with Portsmouth numbers. My point is that you can make a one design and still have options for sailors who do not race. Similiar to the H17 SE and H17Sport. As you know I'm a H17Sport sailor who likes to sail fast and would not care to convert it to a slower SE (ooh, I'm gonna take a hit for that statement). From a marketing point of view, I should think Hobie would like to appeal to both racers and non-racers alike.

... and you guys continue to miss the point. Optional hooter, optional jib, optional wings, high-tech A-Class... all neat stuff yet has no business in a ONE DESIGN class. You start talking about optional components or boats that belong to box rule or formula classes and the whole one-design concept vanishes.

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I completely agree. No optional hooter, optional jib, optional wings, etc... Make a ONE DESIGN class cat similar to the A-Class but make it simple, fast & affordable.

I don't get the resistance to options. I LOVE options. Just because they are there, doesn't mean you have to get them, but they are available for those that do.

In the past, options/variations have apparently lead to the death of the "base" class. For example, the introduction of the 18 Magnum and 18SX splintered the 18 class and accelerated its demise, or so I've been told. There needs to be just one racing configuration for the new boat

Personally, I think having a few "options" for recreational use is a great thing. For example, wings: don't make them class legal for racing, but having a set of easily removed wings would go a long way in making the boat appeal more to the recreational sailor. If this boat is going to be successful, it needs to appeal to the recreational sailors (like the H14/H16/H17/H18) instead of just the racers (like the FX1/Wildcat).

However, I think no matter what the base boat needs to be competitive out of the box - that means that any "optional" parts can't be used while racing, and any options are easily removed.

My personal opinion is that this needs to be a much more durable boat than the Fx1/Wildcat/A-class. If I was buying a new boat, I would want one that I could drag up onto the beach at the end of the day without worrying about damaging eggshell hulls. As for sails, maybe a main/spinnaker configuration, sort of an updated H17? I think the doublehanded market is clogged up, with the H16 and the F18, but I feel like there's room for a boat that's faster/more advanced than the wave, but below the A-class.

I think history has shown pretty clearly that the more "options" that are offered, the more it takes away from participation of the base class. Optional jibs, optional third sails, optional wings, rig variations all take away from people that "might" otherwise participate in the class.

The Hobie 17 Sport is a perfect example. Someone who bought this boat might have otherwise been interested in racing at a casual level- checking out a divisional or fleet regatta. They may have even bought the boat with the expectation that they could convert it to class legal if they wanted. But unfortunately it will cost that person close to a grand to get their boat class legal, so they figure forget it, I'm not going to spend $1000 to "down grade" my boat just so I can see if I like Hobie racing- I'll just go fun sailing or race portsmouth. And so the class potentially loses a member.

Options are a slippery slope. On one hand, the more options offered, the greater the mass appeal and the more people are likely to buy the boat. On the other hand, the more options, the more the one-design class becomes diluted.

I think the days of one design are well behind us. Box rules have taken the main stage in beachcat sailing. It allows a class to change, to grow, and to adapt to technology and the market.

and the "arms race" that so many fear is very good for any class. The top sailors want the shiniest new toy, and that puts used boats on the market for those who don't want to drop $25k+ on a new boat.

I think the days of one design are well behind us. Box rules have taken the main stage in beachcat sailing. It allows a class to change, to grow, and to adapt to technology and the market.

and the "arms race" that so many fear is very good for any class. The top sailors want the shiniest new toy, and that puts used boats on the market for those who don't want to drop $25k+ on a new boat.

I'm not sure I agree. There's a bunch of us out there perfectly happy to race H16s because it's relatively affordable and the class rules keep it that way. I can't drop $25-35K on a new ride anytime soon, but I'd love to have a more modern racer to replace my old 16 if it's in the same ballpark. If everyone needed a tricked out Formula/ A-Class boat to get started cat sailing, I'm afraid the sport will be extinct in another decade. [at least in the US]

I can go to most Multi-hull regattas and count on racing against a handful of Hobie 16's. The Wave class seems to be pretty healthy as well. I would love to see a boat that could pull the H16/17/18 folks into a unified *affordable* performance class that was focused on the principals and fun of sailing vs. out-spending your competitors.

From what I can tell, the "Arms Race" folks are so busy splintering a small field of serious cat sailors with new designs, the Alter cup can't even agree on a format or get a half dozen of the same boats to show up. I'm not sure if that "Main Stage" is ultimately helping the sport.

I'm not sure I agree. There's a bunch of us out there perfectly happy to race H16s because it's relatively affordable and the class rules keep it that way. I can't drop $25-35K on a new ride anytime soon, but I'd love to have a more modern racer to replace my old 16 if it's in the same ballpark. If everyone needed a tricked out Formula/ A-Class boat to get started cat sailing, I'm afraid the sport will be extinct in another decade. [at least in the US]

I can go to most Multi-hull regattas and count on racing against a handful of Hobie 16's. The Wave class seems to be pretty healthy as well. I would love to see a boat that could pull the H16/17/18 folks into a unified *affordable* performance class that was focused on the principals and fun of sailing vs. out-spending your competitors.

From what I can tell, the "Arms Race" folks are so busy splintering a small field of serious cat sailors with new designs, the Alter cup can't even agree on a format or get a half dozen of the same boats to show up. I'm not sure if that "Main Stage" is ultimately helping the sport.

Exactly!!! We need a new affordable cat that is in-between a Hobie Wave & an A-class cat.