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It works for me!

Posted on: September 7, 2008 - 5:51pm

Fonzie

Posts: 962

Joined: 2008-08-31

Offline

It works for me!

Faith in Jesus works for me - it's exciting. I love the Bible and believe all of it - though there is mystery. There is mystery everywhere though, right? I am a incredibly happy believer in Jesus. I'm not a theologian, I just believe in Jesus.

I understand you can't make anybody believe in Jesus and the Bible, and I don't personally try to do that. But I highly recommend it from my experience with it. I can't get enough of the Bible or Jesus. I can't imagine trying to navigate through life without it at this point in my life.

I don't think Jesus or God is a thing you can prove to somebody. I heard about it a large percentage of my life and it didn't mean anything to me until a certain point - then that all changed.

So do you guys think that I'm fooling myself, not really happy, you don't believe me, or do you really think I can't be as happy or enlightened as you - are you evangelistic in that sense or what? What is the purpose of this site? Do you have something better to offer? If so, what is your gospel?

I've found all kinds of atrocities, racism, sexism, rape, slavery, and complete contradictions, but I haven't seen any diamonds. Where are they?

Fonzie wrote:

Rightly seen and in context it is all diamonds and gold to me. True, the Bible tells it the way it is.

It certainly does.

If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property. Exodus 21:20

Say to the Israelites: "A woman who becomes pregnant and gives birth to a son will be cermonially unclean for seven days, just as she is unclean during her monthly period. On the eighth day the boy is to be circumcised. Then the woman must wait thirty-three days to be purified from her bleeding. She must not touch anything sacred or go to the sanctuary until the days of her purification are over. If she gives birth to a daughter, for two weeks the woman will be unclean, as during her period. Then she must wait sixty-six days to be purified from her bleeding." Leviticus 12:2-5

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 1 Corinthians 13:4-5

Beloved, let us LOVE one another: for love is of God; and every one who loves is born of God, and knows God. He who does not love does not know God, for God is LOVE. 1 John 4:7-8

Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me. And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. Exodus 20:5-6

If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. Deuteronomy 13:6-10

For all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy. Zephaniah 3:8

Anyone who blasphemes the name of the Lord must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. Leviticus 24:16

If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property. Exodus 21:20

"Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the Lord in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the Lord's people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. Numbers 31:15-18

butterbattle wrote:

Why do I like so many other books more than the Bible?

Fonzie wrote:

Your books fit the road you're on.

Mark Twain, George Orwell, Ayn Rand, Ernest Hemingway?

Aw, now you're making me depressed. You seem to be an incredibly kind person, and yet, you're throwing insults at me to dispel my question. I can easily imagine how a person might want something to be true so badly that it creates a placebo affect; this almost happened to me.

From my own experience, I assume you already understand all, or at least most, of the problems associated with your religion. If you're intelligent, the issue is not that you have failed to recognize these logical fallacies, it's just that the wonderful feeling that you receive eventually becomes so powerful that it overwhelms reason. This "faith," this "Holy Ghost," possesses the same affect as alcohol, caffeine or nicotine, you become addicted to it.

Do you think that a compassionate person can go to heaven without following Jesus?

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare

, so I don't have to clog these threads, THANKS always for your posts, past and future. LOL in appreciation, and please do fix my words, when ya can. YES, too slaying the dragon of religion, I salute you, and all my fellow atheists ....

Hmmm, I really like that paragraph I just wrote. Maybe I should make it in my signature.

Yeah.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare

How is it that science can come out with a totally new practice and condemn the old practices of the past? Why have they got it wrong again and again?

What?

1: That is not an argument.

2: That is fiction.

3: That has nothing to do with what I said.

4: You fail horribly.

Fonzie wrote:

No, I'm not. I'm consciously deferring to the Words and Precepts and Teachings of my God.

Wrong. You are your own god. You and only you determine your daily and future decisions. Stop trying to pass off your faults and gifts as something they aren't, belonging to something that doesn't exist.

Fonzie wrote:

That's not from the Scriptures. That is just a person's impression of something.

I didn't say it was from a scripture or some shit, now did I? Can you say anything of any value at all?

Fonzie wrote:

I'm trying to respectfully understand your perspective and be honest about it. I think you're able to take discussion about these things without being hurt - or...find the "off" button. I'm treating you like a man and I get the impression you're whining.

Yet another attack. What a little bitch you are. Get off your high horse and join reality.

Fonzie wrote:

I am honestly telling you my experience in Christ - you are honestly not accepting.

Your experience is a delusion.

Fonzie wrote:

You don't have to accept my experience as true, or as yours, but your not accepting doesn't change the fact that my experience of the truth of it is still 100% true to me.

And there are people in psychiatric wards who 100% believe that they are jesus or the Queen of England. I guess you belong with them.

Fonzie wrote:

There is my living experience with Christ. I have evidence within myself and it is ongoing.

Delusion. Not evidence. If you had evidence, you'd have presented it already.

Fonzie wrote:

Think about it. If you believed in God you would believe He could manage His book publishing.

Then why didn't he? Why did he leave it to a bunch of war mongering savages? The only logical assumptions to be made are: A: He's an immoral piece of shit who should be forgotten. Or B: He doesn't exist.

There is my living experience with Christ. I have evidence within myself and it is ongoing.

That is at the heart of your mistake.

Unless you can point to good evidence outside yourself, you have no ground for being "100% certain", because the human mind is inherently fallible and subject to error and delusion. Or are you actually claiming that you are truly infallible in at least this judgement, ie that the Bible is true and you really are experiencing contact with an actual spirit outside your own imagination? If so, you are being very arrogant. We can all be deceived, mistaken, about anything. You cannot honestly deny this.

Believers in many different traditions will say something similar to what you have said, especially when religious 'faith' is involved. They cannot all be true, and most likely, none of them is true. 'Faith' in this sense is the very opposite of true knowledge of any kind, it is willful self-delusion. There is simply no way that 'faith' provides any way to decide between different 'faiths' - even if you wanted to be a person of faith, without referring to evidence outside any particular faith, there is no honest way of having any confidence that you have made the 'right' choice, without using something involving external evidence and rational argument. Otherwise you are just 'choosing' based on either personal emotions, or perhaps pure ignorance of the existence of other faiths.

This is in stark contrast to how science strives to gain knowledge and understanding. It never assumes it is has found absolute truth, and a core aspect of science is that it recognizes that any one individual researcher can have major biases and blindness to ideas which he has not considered. So it requires any new idea to be checked independently, and the more the idea seems to be in some conflict with existing theories, the more ruthlessly it has to be tested, before it can achieve acceptance as a better approximation to the true nature of reality than the old one. You may have heard of the process of 'peer review', where other scientists also knowledgable about the same subject must examine the new idea and see if they can find any serious flaws in it before it can be even published in a reputable journal.

Rarely do new theories completely overturn old ones, they adjust and refine them, so getting us ever closer to 'truth' about how the universe is and behaves.

The evidence of how successful this approach is, is all around you, and in the very computer you are using to communicate with us on this board.

Well, which would be more efficient --- to use a map, or have to make your own?

But, uh... what? Errr... hmm... oh, wait! After a LOT of thinking, confused writing and erasing, I think I'm finally getting your point. It would have been much easier if you had just said it outright from the beginning, though...

Your argument seems to be that an atheist will just come to the conclusion that there is a god, and thus become a theist. Am I correct on this? If so, then, uhm, nope. I've been an atheist all my life, and the more I look, the more sure I become that it will not change. For example, I'm now completely sure that I will never be a christian, muslim, jew, hindu, buddhist or a follower of any other religion that I have ever heard of - something that I saw as a possibility before.

To sum it all up, if I understood your point correctly, you're just presupposing that you're correct and use that very same presupposition as an excuse not to look into if you really are. If I misunderstood your point, then I demand that you restate it, this time clearly without any metaphors, so that no more misunderstandings are made.

"Nobody will ever win the battle of the sexes. There's too much fraternizing with the enemy."

You've created a God in your own image if you believe this. Read John 6:35 on up to John 7, then read Romans 8 and 9. Christ in the Bible isn't some kind of super cosmic bellboy you can call on to forgive your sins; it wasn't as if, from God's eternal decree, He saw that man sinned and said "ah crap, hey Jesus, can you do Me a quick favor ..." That's not what the New Testament teaches at all.

Christ died to make the redemption of God's foreknown elect possible. Election and reprobation came before any sin was decreed, from the Fall on down. God became man to actualize the glorification of the elect; they were never lost at all for any moment in eternity, and God's decree of the Crucifixion and Resurrection was what made this so. That's Bible. Whatever spirit you have inside of you isn't the one preached by Christ and Paul.

"When the Lord Jesus Christ in His own words describes in some little detail that great drama that's the most important event in all human history, time, and eternity - this event, the great general judgment - the Lord Jesus Christ, then shall He say unto them on His right hand, 'Come ye blessed of My Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world, for when you had opportunity at one of Billy Graham's campaigns you went forward and took good ol' Jesus as your very own personal savior.' NO! GET REAL!" - Fred Phelps

It would not be an exaggeration to state that virtually every member of this forum has read huge chunks of the Bible. Many of us, not only read the entire Bible from cover to cover, but also studied extensively the Koran, Torah, Book of Mormon, the history of the scriptures, arguments from theists and atheists, etc. Furthermore, some of us are experts in comparative religion, philosophy, psychology, biology, physics, etc....

When Judas led the soldiers to give the kiss he knew the place. His knowledge of Jesus enabled him to be a certified traitor.

butterbattle wrote:

So, what exactly do you mean when you ask us to dig deeper into the scriptures? I didn't find any gold or diamonds in my Bible.

You didn't go through the Door and they are thus hidden to you.

butterbattle wrote:

Is it here?

"If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. Deuteronomy 13:6-10"

Maybe here?

"If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property. Exodus 21:20"

How about these?

"Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 1 Corinthians 13:4-5"

"Beloved, let us LOVE one another: for love is of God; and every one who loves is born of God, and knows God. He who does not love does not know God, for God is LOVE. 1 John 4:7-8"

"Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me. And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. Exodus 20:5-6"

"Anyone who blasphemes the name of the Lord must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. Leviticus 24:16"

"For all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy. Zephaniah 3:8"

Yes it is in all these Holy Scriptures rightlyunderstood in context. God is God. He dwells in Heaven and does what He pleases. What He does will be shown to be eternally right and just. This truth is anchored in what He has done to save us in Christ. You reject the gospel and your distrust of God searches for things you can assume you understand and use to support your unbelief - to your loss.

butterbattle wrote:

I've found all kinds of atrocities, racism, sexism, rape, slavery, and complete contradictions, but I haven't seen any diamonds. Where are they?

They are through the door of faith in Jesus and seen by the blind spiritual eyes restored by Him - along with the dead spirit raised to life in Him and with Him.

butterbattle wrote:

From my own experiences, I assume you already understand all, or at least most of the problems associated with your religion. If you're intelligent, the issue is not that you have failed to recogbnize these logical fallacies, it's just that the wonderful feeling that you receive eventually grows so powerful that it overwhelms reason.

"Feeling" is not an accurate word here. Feeling is comparable to surface weather. The conviction I am talking about is deep - like an earthquake.

butterbattle wrote:

This "faith," this "Holy Ghost," possesses the same effect as alcohol, caffeine or nicotine; you become addicted to it.

Actually the Scriptures use that analogy in a sense; that just as we formerly gave ourselves to snowballing destruction now we are to give ourselves wholeheartedly to the Spirit's fire. I am with you on this analogy - the difference is this addiction is profitable and applicable in every way positive in life now and forever.

Exactly. Many theists always make the assumption that morality comes from their respective religions; thus, non-religious people are homosexual, Satanic, baby eaters. (yum, for recipes, refer to Jonathon Swift) They completely ignore the fact that every religion has a different set of morals and none of them are even close to what the average person considers ideal. They just think, based on faith, that their book contains the "right" morals.

However, what even more suspicious is that the beliefs outlined in each holy text is exactly what you would expect if the texts were not divinely inspired, but invented by the people associated with it.

Old Testament-People living in the middle east thousands of years ago.

Quran-Mostly the same as above.

Book of Mormon-Joseph Smith

Fundamentals of Thought-Ron L. Hubbard

So you have some things to sort through honestly - without letting the thinking or influence of anything or anybody interfere with your examination as to what is right or wrong. It's important enough to make a priority.

(Oh, and I never were a theist either, so I never "went to America". I was simply lucky enough to be born free of it all. But perhaps I'm just misunderstanding your analogy completely, and this is completely irrelevant. I don't know. It's just too weird for me be sure of what you're trying to say.)

Not being born a "theist" is no barrier to examining the gospel of salvation in Christ. In a sense it makes you a good candidate. I would just encourage you to deal with your examination of it honestly with yourself - not letting anybody here or around you interfere. I think we all respect a lack of guile and the courage it takes to stand on what you understand to be true - knowing others aren't going to chime in and applaud. It takes faith in something to do that. To go deeper and push back views held for a long time and now on autopilt to consider from a new angle is shovel work for the mind.

And you've said less with each response, until the whole thing spirals into an empty metaphor.

You are making a judgment here on my statements - based on your frame of mind. I am using Scripture as my thinking reference, which I am totally confident is the Word of God. Your assessment of my statements doesn't disturb me. Show me where I am wrong or empty rather than using empty derision.

magilum wrote:

Basically, you're showing your typical Christian nihilism and passive-aggression. Subjectivity is the only safe place for a position as tenuous as yours.

As I understand nihilism it is a tearing down of something fundamental, like the pillars of society. The only application of that I see personally is that of tearing down my old fallen life of the flesh and straining toward my new life in the Spirit.

The way I understand passive aggression - to be aggressive about being passive - I don't think fits. If you mean I am aggressive about not hating those that disagree - that isn't an aggressive thing but rather a peacdeful thing from Jesus' Spirit and example.

As to subjectivity - I can see why you view subjectivity as a "last bastion" for a faker - an escape to an unknown unquestionable realm where I can say my spiritual experience is this or that in "safe haven" from your argument.

That's a reasonable answer to my claim and I think you are right in being skeptical. I am skeptical too about what others claim. If somehow you had faith in me as a friend it might start a bridge over that gap. I think it adds weight though that I am not wanting you to honor me but rather honor Jesus.

I use the Scriptures as my base for truth (totally confident there) and I am skeptical about anything else. The Scriptures have proved and are proving themselves to me as the truth they claim to be. The Living Christ of the Scriptures is also proving Himself to me constantly.

(Oh, and I never were a theist either, so I never "went to America". I was simply lucky enough to be born free of it all. But perhaps I'm just misunderstanding your analogy completely, and this is completely irrelevant. I don't know. It's just too weird for me be sure of what you're trying to say.)

Not being born a "theist" is no barrier to examining the gospel of salvation in Christ. In a sense it makes you a good candidate. I would just encourage you to deal with your examination of it honestly with yourself - not letting anybody here or around you interfere. I think we all respect a lack of guile and the courage it takes to stand on what you understand to be true - knowing others aren't going to chime in and applaud. It takes faith in something to do that. To go deeper and push back views held for a long time and now on autopilt to consider from a new angle is shovel work for the mind.

No one is born a theist. Theism is a process of indoctrination.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin

You said that you would not have done those good things without your belief. Are those good deeds done for a reward? And you're avoiding the 'bad' things to avoid punishment? That doesn't sound like goodness, it sounds like fear. Am I correct here?

No you are wrong. If I was doing good things to earn salvation that effort would be tainted from the start with self-interest. The reason I am doing good things is in gratitude to and love for Jesus and what He has done.

Initially there was fear yes and a problem forgiving myself. But I came to accept grace wholeheartedly. I only fear God now like driving on the interstate - I know I need to be careful and pay attention but I am not going down the road in fear and trembling.

darth_josh wrote:

Is this 'light of the scriptures' eternal? If so then why are there so many pieces taken away and/or added? Do you see a problem here?

The light of the Scriptures is eternal light - a fire that never goes out. I have no doubt whatsoever.

darth_josh wrote:

You asked me for a religion better than yours. I gave my response, but then you broke into sermon. If you want to continue a rational discussion about your beliefs then you're going to have to stop preaching and respond in kind. You said that you would look into a religion that I suggested was better than yours. What was so wrong with the native american ideology I presented to you?

You just ask me concerning "things left out". What you told me about had a lot left out.

By the way - how is it I was preaching but you werent? Is preaching defined as something you don't want to hear?

darth_josh wrote:

It has been my experience (including this one) that adherents of christianity are anything but humble with regard to their beliefs. Grabbing one's cross and marching down the street proudly to an alleged eternal reward seems inherently arrogant, not humble. Can you see that from my perspective?

Yeah I think I can. I have seen examples of that. Since you see that for what it is it shouldn't interfere with your honest examination of what Jesus is really like.

As far as certifying myself as humble you can see the problem there too. If I can see things as they are for me that's humility.

I am a guy taken from the landfill and adopted as son of the King - paid for by the blood of the King's son. This was not based on my merit but the King's qualities.

darth_josh wrote:

See? This phrase is blatantly arrogant:

Fonzie wrote:

being a fellow human being, being in all ways equal to others, in all ways guilty, except for the Blood of Jesus.

You set yourself above or just different from others while denigrating the human that is equal to others.

I said I am in all ways equal to others - Jesus is the One Who is above all and unique.

darth_josh wrote:

If you can read and think for yourself then why would these 'friends' be needed for your 'personal relationship' with christ?

The friends are also part of Jesus' body - He is the Head. The answer to your question by that analogy is - "why does the hand need the arm"?

Standing alone could become necessary at any time too however and you are right that should be expected.

darth_josh wrote:

Have you noticed a problem when you try to describe this 'devil' or 'evil one'? It always seems to take on attributes created by human minds?

No there's no problem. This is a great advantage having confidence in the Scriptuers - I base my understanding of the Devil and evil there. If the Scriptures say it - that settles it.

Life is too tricky to approach without the map of the Scriptures. Things are not as they appear on the surface.

The devil disguises himself as an angel of light. He is a roaring lion waiting to devour, a natural liar, he misrepresents God and misapplies Scripture. He isn't into glorifying God. In Christ he can be resisted. He can't be whipped by mere man.

darth_josh wrote:

You're just breaking into sermon every time I give you a 'hard' question. You asked for my honest participation yet I get the sense you are being duplicitous with me. The question isn't that hard. Why should we take faith in jesus any differently than we take faith in a politician?

I have trouble understanding what the line is with you - when conversation becomes preaching. If I was touchy I could view you as preaching couldn't I?

I'm not sure I can answer this question in a way you will consider isn't preaching but I'll try.

Jesus was uniquely qualified to die for our sins. Everything He did and said was and is perfect. He is the Lamb of God. I am moved by that. I have pursued and explored that message and found it to be true. I'm telling you it is true. That's why. I don't see that in any politician - it's not in the same realm.

darth_josh wrote:

So it would be safe for me to say that you WILL not accept the possibility that your god does not exist.

It would be totally safe. God is more real to me than anything - even things I see.

darth_josh wrote:

It seems important to mention that hinders you a little. Would you concur?

We are on opposite sides of that view as well. It's a extension of the view of Jesus - hot or cold. You remember He didn't like lukewarm - I'm complimenting you here. You think it hinders - I think it enables, motivates, inspires, guides, supports, enhances, accompanies.....

darth_josh wrote:

After all, I merely lack faith in your god whilst you rely upon it.

Right; plus you view that as "merely" while I view that as "amazingly".

darth_josh wrote:

If your god were proven to exist how would that change you, if at all?

God doesn't have to be proven to exist - He is. You notice that's the way the Scriptures start out. "In the beginning God" - assumes faith in God.

The coming change is going from being "in Christ" like I am now (re born in Christ, born of water and the Spirit), to beint "with Christ" (in His presence) - after my death or when He comes. Through the eyes of faith I see Jesus alive and King over all and present with me now.

darth_josh wrote:

Conversely, if a different god or no god at all were proven to be the case then what?

I hope the existence of God isn't as remote to you as that statement is to me, because I can't conceive that question in my wildest imagination - and I have a good imagination. That thought doesn't exist for me in this world - or the next.

There are a multitude of false gods and false trusts and false towers people try to use for shelter and defense. I've experience some of those and they are worlds apart from what I have now and have had for some time in Christ.

I've found all kinds of atrocities, racism, sexism, rape, slavery, and complete contradictions, but I haven't seen any diamonds. Where are they?

Fonzie wrote:

Rightly seen and in context it is all diamonds and gold to me. True, the Bible tells it the way it is.

It certainly does. If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property. Exodus 21:20Say to the Israelites: "A woman who becomes pregnant and gives birth to a son will be cermonially unclean for seven days, just as she is unclean during her monthly period. On the eighth day the boy is to be circumcised. Then the woman must wait thirty-three days to be purified from her bleeding. She must not touch anything sacred or go to the sanctuary until the days of her purification are over. If she gives birth to a daughter, for two weeks the woman will be unclean, as during her period. Then she must wait sixty-six days to be purified from her bleeding." Leviticus 12:2-5Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 1 Corinthians 13:4-5Beloved, let us LOVE one another: for love is of God; and every one who loves is born of God, and knows God. He who does not love does not know God, for God is LOVE. 1 John 4:7-8Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me. And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. Exodus 20:5-6If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. Deuteronomy 13:6-10For all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy. Zephaniah 3:8Anyone who blasphemes the name of the Lord must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. Leviticus 24:16If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property. Exodus 21:20"Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the Lord in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the Lord's people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. Numbers 31:15-18

True these disciplines of the Law of Moses and also accounts of secular historical cruelty are very grave. Do you think these things didn't happen or what?

Quote:

butterbattle wrote:

Why do I like so many other books more than the Bible?

Fonzie wrote:

Your books fit the road you're on.

Mark Twain, George Orwell, Ayn Rand, Ernest Hemingway?Aw, now you're making me depressed. You seem to be an incredibly kind person, and yet, you're throwing insults at me to dispel my question.

No, I'm not incredibly kind at all or insulting you. I think it is true that a person naturally would find reading, music, friends, whatever to accompany the road of life he/she is on. I think it's a principle, didn't mean it as an insult. If you were trying to pursue and follow Jesus - the Bible would be your favorite. It's a focus/ accompaniment thing in my opinion.

butterbattle wrote:

I can easily imagine how a person might want something to be true so badly that it creates a placebo affect; this almost happened to me.

I would be interested in that "almost" story if you were interested in sharing it.

butterbattle wrote:

From my own experience, I assume you already understand all, or at least most, of the problems associated with your religion. If you're intelligent, the issue is not that you have failed to recognize these logical fallacies, it's just that the wonderful feeling that you receive eventually becomes so powerful that it overwhelms reason. This "faith," this "Holy Ghost," possesses the same affect as alcohol, caffeine or nicotine, you become addicted to it. Do you think that a compassionate person can go to heaven without following Jesus?

I drive on the roads but didn't design them. The Scriptures say Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life - no one comes to the Father except through Him. I accept that totally. He is the stone rejected by the builders that became the chief cornerstone. There is salvation in no one else and there is no Name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved. It's clear (in Scripture) though not generally accepted that there is salvation by no One other than Jesus.

How is it that science can come out with a totally new practice and condemn the old practices of the past? Why have they got it wrong again and again?

What?

1: That is not an argument.

2: That is fiction.

3: That has nothing to do with what I said.

4: You fail horribly.

That is not an argument to you because you are not open to it. It is simply a comparison.

It was my answer to your question why Christians don't get it right the first time. It seems nobody does - including scientists, bike riders or roller

skaters.

Vastet wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

No, I'm not. I'm consciously deferring to the Words and Precepts and Teachings of my God.

Wrong. You are your own god.

How is it that you know this? Wouldn't it take a "god" to know this? Are you your own "god"? Is there any God above you?

Vastet wrote:

You and only you determine your daily and future decisions.

What about time and chance happening to us all?

Vastet wrote:

Stop trying to pass off your faults and gifts as something they aren't, belonging to something that doesn't exist.

If you were God - that would have some weight with what I start and stop. Instead I have to regard you with the same view I have of myself when I am wrong. I have to arrest wrong thoughts in the light of the Scriptures - those that can't show Scriptural backing.

That's just your faith and your message - not mine. I'm not my own God. I have learned I can't trust myself or my perspective. I make it my goal to understand and discover God's instruction and perspective and thoughts on matters and discard mine - and yours.

Vastet wrote:

I didn't say it was from a scripture or some shit, now did I? Can you say anything of any value at all?

One man's treasure is another's trash.

Vastet wrote:

Yet another attack. What a little bitch you are. Get off your high horse and join reality.

As little as I appear to you I might not be the one on the horse or on the attack.

Vastet wrote:

Your experience is a delusion.

That's your assessment of my experience. I don't put that much trust in my perspective to assess your experience. I would invite you to tell me that and i would tell you mine.

Vastet wrote:

And there are people in psychiatric wards who 100% believe that they are jesus or the Queen of England. I guess you belong with them.

You seem pretty confident of your position - how close to 100% would you say you are?

Vastet wrote:

Delusion. Not evidence. If you had evidence, you'd have presented it already.

You make confident statements without proof. I admit my confidence is based on faith in Jesus which I cannot prove to you - however I am proving it to myself and sharing it with those who are interested. If you arent, that's your right and I respect it.

Think about it. If you believed in God you would believe He could manage His book publishing. (Fonzie quote)

Vastet wrote:

Then why didn't he?

He did and He has.

Vastet wrote:

Why did he leave it to a bunch of war mongering savages?

He evidently has more confidence in men than you seem to.

Vastet wrote:

The only logical assumptions to be made are: A: He's an immoral piece of shit who should be forgotten. Or B: He doesn't exist.

God is merciful enough that He would let His only begotten Son be mocked like you are doing - while dying to pay the price for your sins. Jesus showed the royal nature of the "Prince of Peace" saying, "Father forgive them for they don't know what they're doing".

Know that though you make these statements about God you are loved in the face of the most painful death and insults - by God and His King Who is ready to accept you as friend. If you reject God's Grace in Christ the worm of regret won't die for eternity. You will always know you could have had it -= but refused.

Vastet wrote:

Your gold is fools gold.

The gold of the Scriptures is missed by fools - also discovered by fools who repent of their folly.

Vastet wrote:

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, & Gaming God.

Nothing heralds destruction more certainly than pride - nor honor more than humility.

There is my living experience with Christ. I have evidence within myself and it is ongoing.

That is at the heart of your mistake.

This is how I see your statement. Jesus told Nicodemus 'you can't even understand (you can't see the Kingdom of God) what I'm talking about unless you are "born anew" of the water and the Spirit'.

You are talking about something from the outside and your impression. I am experiencing it. It is real.

You don't believe me or the Scripture I just quoted - I'm guessing. You are talking about something from a remote position, a position that doesn't let you check it out or be credible in your evaluation of it.

BobSpence1 wrote:

Unless you can point to good evidence outside yourself, you have no ground for being "100% certain", because the human mind is inherently fallible and subject to error and delusion. Or are you actually claiming that you are truly infallible in at least this judgement, ie that the Bible is true and you really are experiencing contact with an actual spirit outside your own imagination? If so, you are being very arrogant. We can all be deceived, mistaken, about anything. You cannot honestly deny this.

You are right about the fact we can easily be deceived, mistaken about anything, yet can you admit man is looking for something - I mean a cow is satisfied with grass but man wants more. I have found what I want - I hit oil in my search and it is a daily producing well from outside myself but also within myself.

I can point to the evidence outside myself but it is seen with the eyes of faith. There is something about the Word of God that makes those eyes of faith come to life and see.

I didn't find what I was looking for in this world - things, my own thing, other people's thing, beautiful things, escape things. I did try some things but I hit the lottery with Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit and the Scriptures. The payoff hasn't stopped coming. But it is seen with the eyes of faith and experienced in the resulting new birth in Christ which includes the promised gift of the Holy Spirit within.

BobSpence1 wrote:

Believers in many different traditions will say something similar to what you have said, especially when religious 'faith' is involved. They cannot all be true, and most likely, none of them is true. 'Faith' in this sense is the very opposite of true knowledge of any kind, it is willful self-delusion. There is simply no way that 'faith' provides any way to decide between different 'faiths' - even if you wanted to be a person of faith, without referring to evidence outside any particular faith, there is no honest way of having any confidence that you have made the 'right' choice, without using something involving external evidence and rational argument. Otherwise you are just 'choosing' based on either personal emotions, or perhaps pure ignorance of the existence of other faiths.

There is a way to tell gold from "fool's gold". The thing you mention could be an excuse for not learning how to tell the difference. There are fake antiques and probably counterfeits for everything valuable. Solomon mentions a guy that won't go out and try because there might be a "lion in the street". Since lions usually aren't in the street - it could be just an excuse.

BobSpence1 wrote:

This is in stark contrast to how science strives to gain knowledge and understanding. It never assumes it is has found absolute truth, and a core aspect of science is that it recognizes that any one individual researcher can have major biases and blindness to ideas which he has not considered. So it requires any new idea to be checked independently, and the more the idea seems to be in some conflict with existing theories, the more ruthlessly it has to be tested, before it can achieve acceptance as a better approximation to the true nature of reality than the old one. You may have heard of the process of 'peer review', where other scientists also knowledgable about the same subject must examine the new idea and see if they can find any serious flaws in it before it can be even published in a reputable journal.

I am constantly studying and trying the Scriptures - with proven results. They prove themselves true, and that there is a true God and Savior backing them up.

BobSpence1 wrote:

Rarely do new theories completely overturn old ones, they adjust and refine them, so getting us ever closer to 'truth' about how the universe is and behaves.

I have had to make adjustments too. When I was first "born again" each Scripture was new and the pendulum swung too much with each new one discovered. Each was so great I over applied. Eventually they started balancing up.

BobSpence1 wrote:

The evidence of how successful this approach is, is all around you, and in the very computer you are using to communicate with us on this board.

I can easily go to any Scripture in any version. This computer is a great tool - but one is wise to not forget there are traps.

Well, which would be more efficient --- to use a map, or have to make your own?

But, uh... what? Errr... hmm... oh, wait! After a LOT of thinking, confused writing and erasing, I think I'm finally getting your point. It would have been much easier if you had just said it outright from the beginning, though...

Your argument seems to be that an atheist will just come to the conclusion that there is a god, and thus become a theist. Am I correct on this? If so, then, uhm, nope. I've been an atheist all my life, and the more I look, the more sure I become that it will not change. For example, I'm now completely sure that I will never be a christian, muslim, jew, hindu, buddhist or a follower of any other religion that I have ever heard of - something that I saw as a possibility before.

To sum it all up, if I understood your point correctly, you're just presupposing that you're correct and use that very same presupposition as an excuse not to look into if you really are. If I misunderstood your point, then I demand that you restate it, this time clearly without any metaphors, so that no more misunderstandings are made.

Just as you have gone down the wrong road and don't see yourself as turning back I am confident I am on the right road, using the Scriptures as the map. You are GPS - ing from your own mind, making your own map as you go. The Scriptures say is it not within man to do that - you didn't come with that added accessory. You think that you are proving the Scriptures wrong? They will prove you wrong.

You've created a God in your own image if you believe this. Read John 6:35 on up to John 7, then read Romans 8 and 9. Christ in the Bible isn't some kind of super cosmic bellboy you can call on to forgive your sins; it wasn't as if, from God's eternal decree, He saw that man sinned and said "ah crap, hey Jesus, can you do Me a quick favor ..." That's not what the New Testament teaches at all.

Christ died to make the redemption of God's foreknown elect possible. Election and reprobation came before any sin was decreed, from the Fall on down. God became man to actualize the glorification of the elect; they were never lost at all for any moment in eternity, and God's decree of the Crucifixion and Resurrection was what made this so. That's Bible. Whatever spirit you have inside of you isn't the one preached by Christ and Paul.

The gospel is very simple - there is no need to withhold the people's bread with eloquence. When man fell and forgot his God he was on the downhill slide. All men sinned and it snowballed - along with the cords and snares of it. Man's will was and is imprisoned without the freeing application of the gospel.

The gospel was planned before the world was created - thought it was a mystery even to the heavenly host, now revealed.

The elect are those God knew ahead of time would respond to the gospel of Christ. The Great Physician came to heal those who were sick, not those who were "well". Those who were "well" would and did and do insult and rebuff the Physician. When He knocks on the door He is insulted with, "nobody is sick here". I was sick in my sins. In Christ I am now well.

As far as the "elect - God is God. He does what He pleases. It may not please some men but it still is eternally right and wise for man to realize his position.

Caring Fonzie. I see monotheism, and it's religions and icons as revealing the slow hard process of abandoning all superstition idol worship. Scripture is this on going battle where we have the gnosis "gnostic" buddha like jesus saying all is one, no master, and the opposing christian pauline theology of making god and jesus an idol above, and separate from us.

Have you read the Dead Sea Scrolls? .... Basically to know you are god, as was the gnosis jesus message, is to know you are god and equal to jesus, and that is the "good word" to spread. Today it is called Atheism.

I am really disappointed, but not surprised, that my #57 - 65 post flew by you, as you replied, "Sir or Madam, I have no idea how to answer since - I don't understand your perspective, premise or application."

Umm, well good luck friend .... it's way way simple.

Hey is some "Gnosis Jesus" for ya, from a "Buddha" awakened perspective, of the same intuition that "knows" , all is ONE, all is god, as you, as me , and every particle of all the eternal cosmos is connected .... as even science says today, as the best gospel yet is thermodynamics!

Fonzie, this is what it comes down to for the believer isn't it, they have ultimately had some incredible experience or series of experiences which they have found totally undeniable as being the most direct contact with God.And backed up by your perception of the world thru 'the eyes of faith'.

The problem that we see from our perspective is that we hear very similar and every bit as heart-felt testimony form individuals with a whole range of 'faiths', which have varying degrees of incompatible details, including ones which definitely do not have CHrist and his sacrifice as part of their belief.

To further stir up the sand on which you have built your faith, there are quite a number of people who have been into a faith every bit as deep as you seem to be, who have actually, after further and even deeper study of the Bible, have had the scales of 'faith' fallen from their eyes and mind and seen that deep down, the belief system is built on nothing but wishful thinking.

So you either have to insist that all these people are deceived or are liars, or admit the possibility that you are experiencing exactly what they have, but have yet to work your way thru the 'faith' phase out into the clear light of honest dealing with the world as it is. You may well be happier in your comforting cocoon of faith, so perhaps we should just leave you alone.

In the immortal words of Jack Nicholson from the movie "A Few Good Men", 'You can't handle the truth!"

]When Judas led the soldiers to give the kiss he knew the place. His knowledge of Jesus enabled him to be a certified traitor.

Point?

Fonzie wrote:

You didn't go through the Door and they are thus hidden to you.

What is this Door? If I start with the assumption that God exists, Jesus is the Messiah, and the Bible is infallible, then everything will make sense, and I will be able to find the diamonds. Isn't this what you're saying?

Can you explain again what these "diamonds" are?

Quote:

You reject the gospel and your distrust of God searches for things you can assume you understand and use to support your unbelief - to your loss.

Why should I trust in the Christian God without having any plausible reason to do so? Why shouldn't I trust in Allah? I am not trying to support my unbelief, per se, but rather, I absorb it as I see it, from as a neutral perspective as possible. And, from here, I don't see why I should support a God that condones slavery.

Furthermore, don't I have to assume that I understand the Bible? After all, you also make the assumption that you understand the Bible, except you understand it as true. If I don't understand it, this means I should automatically believe in it? That doesn't make any sense either.

Why is this "to my loss?" Such a phrase is meaningless and irrelevant in a debate. Stop using pathos; nobody here is going to respect that appeal.

Quote:

They are through the door of faith in Jesus and seen by the blind spiritual eyes restored by Him - along with the dead spirit raised to life in Him and with Him.

Performing miracles isn't anything special. This happens in virtually every religious text in the world.

Please, answer this question, why should I believe in Christianity as opposed to any of the other religions in the world?

Quote:

"Feeling" is not an accurate word here.

It is if you are looking at the dictionary definition of it.

Quote:

Feeling is comparable to surface weather. The conviction I am talking about is deep - like an earthquake.

Why is that not just a strong feeling?

Quote:

Actually the Scriptures use that analogy in a sense;

This tells us a lot about the veracity of scripture.

Quote:

that just as we formerly gave ourselves to snowballing destruction now we are to give ourselves wholeheartedly to the Spirit's fire. I am with you on this analogy - the difference is this addiction is profitable and applicable in every way positive in life now and forever.

How do you know it's profitable? Why does it need to be addictive?

Quote:

without letting the thinking or influence of anything or anybody interfere with your examination as to what is right or wrong.

I don't think people should be condemned for eating shellfish. I don't let anyone interfere with this belief, unless they can give me a logical reason for why people should be condemned for eating shellfish.

darth_josh wrote:

Is this 'light of the scriptures' eternal? If so then why are there so many pieces taken away and/or added? Do you see a problem here?

Fonzie wrote:

The light of the Scriptures is eternal light - a fire that never goes out. I have no doubt whatsoever.

But, you didn't answer the question. Why are their so many different books pieced together? Why are some books left out? Why were the OT and NT written at different times? Why do some laws no longer apply? Etc. etc. etc.

Quote:

True these disciplines of the Law of Moses and also accounts of secular historical cruelty are very grave. Do you think these things didn't happen or what?

Excuse me? Exactly what about Moses following God by ordering all the Israelites to kill every woman and boy, but keeping all the virgins as sex slaves is secular?

In this area of the discussion, I am not occupied with whether or not these events happened, but that if God does exist, then He is a violent egomaniac.

Quote:

It's a focus/ accompaniment thing in my opinion.

Shouldn't everyone be able to see that the Bible is the best book?

Quote:

The Scriptures say Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life - no one comes to the Father except through Him.

So the answer is no. Good people that don't follow Jesus are going to hell.

"Hitler wanted to burn Anne Frank. For this, we call him evil. The christian god burns Anne Frank for all eternity. For this, christians call him 'just.'"

Quote:

I would be interested in that "almost" story if you were interested in sharing it.

It was really pathetic actually.

There was a girl, and, to this day, I still regard her as the only "true" Christian I've ever met. She was always incredibly nice, but not shy. She was moderate, meaning she didn't take the Bible literally and respected science, etc. Instead of preaching to people about her religion, she really led by example. Almost every other day, she had a shirt proclaiming some church or community service group, and she always carried her student Bible with her and frequently read it for pleasure. And, of course, she was attractive.

As a future physics major, I helped her with her math homework. She gave me a Border's Gift Card for helping her, which I used to buy the Bible that I still refer to today. I even started praying to God because of her, kind of like a prolonged experiment. What really scares me is that when I was praying, it's like I was trying to attribute any little thing to God. If some strange coincidence had occurred during this period, I might have converted to Christianity.

Basically, I was emotionally swindled. It took me years to return from a fence sitter to an agnostic atheist.

And that's why I wrote this, "from my own experiences, I assume you already understand all, or at least most of the problems associated with your religion. If you're intelligent, the issue is not that you have failed to recognize these logical fallacies, it's just that the wonderful feeling that you receive eventually grows so powerful that it overwhelms reason. This "faith," this "Holy Ghost," possesses the same effect as alcohol, caffeine or nicotine; you become addicted to it."

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare

You are talking about something from the outside and your impression. I am experiencing it. It is real.

This simply sounds like you experiencing an emotion. Love, perhaps? In any case, while it is "real" to you, it doesn't mean that the idea of god translates into a reality of gods existence.

Enjoy your visit here at RRS and stick around. There are a lot of knowledgeable people here who are great to learn from and discuss things with, even if you aren't wanting any change in your christian ways.

You are talking about something from the outside and your impression. I am experiencing it. It is real.

This simply sounds like you experiencing an emotion. Love, perhaps? In any case, while it is "real" to you, it doesn't mean that the idea of god translates into a reality of gods existence.

Enjoy your visit here at RRS and stick around. There are a lot of knowledgeable people here who are great to learn from and discuss things with, even if you aren't wanting any change in your christian ways.

But Wonko, it's not just a warm fuzzy experience...

It's a BIG warm fuzzy experience.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin

And yet, you say that your experience of Jesus is internal and not demonstrable.

ooops! You lose! Can you see the contradiction here? please explain how you reconcile this.

See, how can you say you put trust in Jesus when you can't be sure if you can trust yourself to pick the right things to trust in? How do you know you are trusting Jesus and not Satan?

you sound more like a Satan worshipper to me - and I trust myself and perspective.

Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly.
Isaac Asimov

(Oh, and I never were a theist either, so I never "went to America". I was simply lucky enough to be born free of it all. But perhaps I'm just misunderstanding your analogy completely, and this is completely irrelevant. I don't know. It's just too weird for me be sure of what you're trying to say.)

Not being born a "theist" is no barrier to examining the gospel of salvation in Christ.

Of course not, and I have. I have found it to be not only untrue, but downright silly, and in parts appalling.

Quote:

In a sense it makes you a good candidate. I would just encourage you to deal with your examination of it honestly with yourself - not letting anybody here or around you interfere. I think we all respect a lack of guile and the courage it takes to stand on what you understand to be true - knowing others aren't going to chime in and applaud. It takes faith in something to do that.

No, it doesn't. I don't have faith in anything, yet if I were put in a room full with creationists, I would still maintain that they're wrong and evolution is right.

Quote:

To go deeper and push back views held for a long time and now on autopilt to consider from a new angle is shovel work for the mind.

I have considered the theist's position. In fact, at one point in my life I tried to become one. But I failed, because no matter how much I tried, I could not choose my beliefs. I could not believe without evidence, and frankly, there is none - for any god. That's why I'm still an atheist today.

"Nobody will ever win the battle of the sexes. There's too much fraternizing with the enemy."

Fonzie, Faith doesn't and never worked for me ... please awake and understand, I am god, as the gnosis jesus did also say ... it's a no brainier, unless you are under the blinding spell of paulism, as meaning idol worship, as is Christianity, as meaning separate from g-o-d .... or whatever we wish to call the "oneness", of all connected reality. Faith is blindness to what we are. There is no master, as all is ONE.

Just because we are all in awe and unknowing of it all, why a need for faith ... a faith in what, a worship of what??? ... what was and will be and what is, just IS ... so WTF is this faith thing, it "WORKS FOR ME" crap??? ... as if there is some escape .... as if some faith as in a religious idol worship sense is worthy of some dogmatic worship thing for some higher sense of comfort of reality. Oh yeah, I know .... it feels good .... Well fuck that religion drug.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." ~ Carl Sagan

I never could understand them religious folks, as I was taught from childhood, that I and all is g-o-d, that me and that Jesus and that Buddha and you, and the star dust are one in the same. ~ me

Caring Fonzie. I see monotheism, and it's religions and icons as revealing the slow hard process of abandoning all superstition idol worship. Scripture is this on going battle where we have the gnosis "gnostic" buddha like jesus saying all is one, no master, and the opposing christian pauline theology of making god and jesus an idol above, and separate from us.

Have you read the Dead Sea Scrolls? .... Basically to know you are god, as was the gnosis jesus message, is to know you are god and equal to jesus, and that is the "good word" to spread. Today it is called Atheism.

I am really disappointed, but not surprised, that my #57 - 65 post flew by you, as you replied, "Sir or Madam, I have no idea how to answer since - I don't understand your perspective, premise or application."

Umm, well good luck friend .... it's way way simple.

Hey is some "Gnosis Jesus" for ya, from a "Buddha" awakened perspective, of the same intuition that "knows" , all is ONE, all is god, as you, as me , and every particle of all the eternal cosmos is connected .... as even science says today, as the best gospel yet is thermodynamics!

Fonzie, this is what it comes down to for the believer isn't it, they have ultimately had some incredible experience or series of experiences which they have found totally undeniable as being the most direct contact with God.And backed up by your perception of the world thru 'the eyes of faith'.

The problem that we see from our perspective is that we hear very similar and every bit as heart-felt testimony form individuals with a whole range of 'faiths', which have varying degrees of incompatible details, including ones which definitely do not have CHrist and his sacrifice as part of their belief.

To further stir up the sand on which you have built your faith, there are quite a number of people who have been into a faith every bit as deep as you seem to be, who have actually, after further and even deeper study of the Bible, have had the scales of 'faith' fallen from their eyes and mind and seen that deep down, the belief system is built on nothing but wishful thinking.

So you either have to insist that all these people are deceived or are liars, or admit the possibility that you are experiencing exactly what they have, but have yet to work your way thru the 'faith' phase out into the clear light of honest dealing with the world as it is. You may well be happier in your comforting cocoon of faith, so perhaps we should just leave you alone.

In the immortal words of Jack Nicholson from the movie "A Few Good Men", 'You can't handle the truth!"

Well Bob,

We don't know what a day wil bring forth - that's true - so I won't boast about what I will/won't do tomorrow.... but we do know we are all eventually going to die. That's a blessing because we can prepare for it. That's a way in which we are different than the cattle on the truck.

Jesus has rescued me from the prison of the fear of death - through faith in Him and spiritually discerning and experiencing His presence.

I am recommending this good news to you and anyone who will listen. You have obviously thought about these things and are in the process of choosing.

Does it interest you that the most controversial choice appears to be Jesus?

Fonzie, yeah, you've made your surrender to idol worship and separation from god clear , and I sympathize. Umm, and gnosis buddha Jesus wept over those as you under the devils spell of wrong thinking. Here again from Alan Watts,

Religion scholar Alan Watts wrote: "The religion of Jesus was that he knew he was a son of God, and the phrase "son of " means "of the nature of," so that a son of God is an individual who realizes that he is, and always has been, one with God. "I and the Father are one." .... and, "Let this mind be in you." that is to say, let the same kind of [rational] consciousness be in you that was in Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ knew he was God." [ as you and all are christ too, as to say 100% god. ]

"Wake up" [said a famous buddha] and find out eventually who you also really are [ god ]. In our culture of course, they'll say you're crazy or you're blasphemous, and they'll either put you in jail or in the nut house (which is the same thing). But if you wake up in India and tell your friends and relations, "My goodness, I've just discovered that I'm God," they'll laugh and say, "Oh, congratulations, at last you found out." ~ Alan Watts

The "Path", the "Way" to higher enlightenment can only be suggested, not taught.

One must always honestly challenge their beliefs as to continually start anew. A big part of Meditation is to return to the place of zero assumptions. In doing can come the realization that all is ONE.

Fonzie, this is what it comes down to for the believer isn't it, they have ultimately had some incredible experience or series of experiences which they have found totally undeniable as being the most direct contact with God.And backed up by your perception of the world thru 'the eyes of faith'.

The problem that we see from our perspective is that we hear very similar and every bit as heart-felt testimony form individuals with a whole range of 'faiths', which have varying degrees of incompatible details, including ones which definitely do not have CHrist and his sacrifice as part of their belief.

To further stir up the sand on which you have built your faith, there are quite a number of people who have been into a faith every bit as deep as you seem to be, who have actually, after further and even deeper study of the Bible, have had the scales of 'faith' fallen from their eyes and mind and seen that deep down, the belief system is built on nothing but wishful thinking.

So you either have to insist that all these people are deceived or are liars, or admit the possibility that you are experiencing exactly what they have, but have yet to work your way thru the 'faith' phase out into the clear light of honest dealing with the world as it is. You may well be happier in your comforting cocoon of faith, so perhaps we should just leave you alone.

In the immortal words of Jack Nicholson from the movie "A Few Good Men", 'You can't handle the truth!"

Well Bob,

We don't know what a day wil bring forth - that's true - so I won't boast about what I will/won't do tomorrow.... but we do know we are all eventually going to die. That's a blessing because we can prepare for it. That's a way in which we are different than the cattle on the truck.

Jesus has rescued me from the prison of the fear of death - through faith in Him and spiritually discerning and experiencing His presence.

I am recommending this good news to you and anyone who will listen. You have obviously thought about these things and are in the process of choosing.

Does it interest you that the most controversial choice appears to be Jesus?

Don't know if I've noticed that, usually Jesus is the one mentioned on this board by people coming on. What other prophets were you comparing him to?

What makes Jesus any better than Mohammed, Buddha, Vishnu, etc, etc.?

You didn't really address the point that many other people have felt just as strongly about Jesus as you appear to now, and found eventually that it DOES NOT 'work for them', ultimately. Maybe they value truth over comforting fiction...

]When Judas led the soldiers to give the kiss he knew the place. His knowledge of Jesus enabled him to be a certified traitor.

Point?

If you taste the heavenly gift and then turn away you are in worse shape than before.

butterbattle wrote:

What is this Door? If I start with the assumption that God exists, Jesus is the Messiah, and the Bible is infallible, then everything will make sense, and I will be able to find the diamonds. Isn't this what you're saying?

The only way to come to God and comprehend the Scriptures is by accepting Jesus.

butterbattle wrote:

Can you explain again what these "diamonds" are?

Diamonds are the metaphor for "precious", "most valuable" - facets of Jesus.

butterbattle wrote:

Why should I trust in the Christian God without having any plausible reason to do so? Why shouldn't I trust in Allah? I am not trying to support my unbelief, per se, but rather, I absorb it as I see it, from as a neutral perspective as possible. And, from here, I don't see why I should support a God that condones slavery.

You are rejecting your false impression.

butterbattle wrote:

Furthermore, don't I have to assume that I understand the Bible? After all, you also make the assumption that you understand the Bible, except you understand it as true. If I don't understand it, this means I should automatically believe in it? That doesn't make any sense either.

The Scriptures can produce faith. You do have an honest part in this though. While on earth Jesus ask certain people to follow Him - and they refused. Some had their excuses; some had their heart set on other things.

butterbattle wrote:

Why is this "to my loss?" Such a phrase is meaningless and irrelevant in a debate. Stop using pathos; nobody here is going to respect that appeal.

"To your loss" - If the Word of God is true, which It is, you are missing out on the most important thing in life.

butterbattle wrote:

Performing miracles isn't anything special. This happens in virtually every religious text in the world.

Please, answer this question, why should I believe in Christianity as opposed to any of the other religions in the world?

Why should you believe in Christ?

Because you are a rebel and an insurrectionist - and Jesus is your most controversial choice.

His is the most violent (spiritual) war with the most vicious opponent. His is the only challenge that will satisfy you eternally.

butterbattle wrote:

"Feeling" is not an accurate word here. (Fonzie quote)

It is if you are looking at the dictionary definition of it.

Would you say "pang of conscience" is a "feeling"?

butterbattle wrote:

"Feeling is comparable to surface weather. The conviction I am talking about is deep - like an earthquake." (Fonzie quote)

Why is that not just a strong feeling?

Because I'm talking about something different and unchanging - unlike feeling.

butterbattle wrote:

How do you know it's profitable? Why does it need to be addictive?

I know it's profitable because I'm living in the house built by the wisdom of Christ, established by understanding, and decorated by knowledge.

It's a cool house and I'm enjoying it.

butterbattle wrote:

I don't think people should be condemned for eating shellfish. I don't let anyone interfere with this belief, unless they can give me a logical reason for why people should be condemned for eating shellfish.

I agree and I don't condemn them.

butterbattle wrote:

Excuse me? Exactly what about Moses following God by ordering all the Israelites to kill every woman and boy, but keeping all the virgins as sex slaves is secular?

In this area of the discussion, I am not occupied with whether or not these events happened, but that if God does exist, then He is a violent egomaniac.

I'm looking here at your opinion of God and I'm looking at what God has done.

Some things He has done are not completely explained. Enough is explained for me to live comfortably with the mysteries.

You ignore great things that are simple to understand and clear - to rather focus on your excuse. Why is this?

butterbattle wrote:

Shouldn't everyone be able to see that the Bible is the best book?

Yes they should - and can if they honestly seek to (it's promised in Scripture, thus no one will ever be able to say before the universe that they cried out to God for insight and understanding and He didn't give it).

When John the Baptist was preparing the way, he preached repentance. Some don't want to do that first step - thus they don't have that much desire to find God in Christ.

Some might have to get off their own throne and humble themselves before God. There's nothing false about this. A man can see he is not God.

butterbattle wrote:

"The Scriptures say Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life - no one comes to the Father except through Him." (Fonzie quote)

So the answer is no. Good people that don't follow Jesus are going to hell.

The Scriptures say there is no other Name in heaven or on earth by which man can be saved.

It also says the things you mention - things men might regard as "good" are filthy rags and a few pesos before God. Our own righteousness won't hold up before God. We have to humble ourselves and accept the Righteousness of God - which is Christ's death.

That is the gospel which you reject, which you could have if you wanted. Instead you want to put confidence in "goodness" - or in the lie that God doesn't exist.

butterbattle wrote:

"Hitler wanted to burn Anne Frank. For this, we call him evil. The christian god burns Anne Frank for all eternity. For this, christians call him 'just.'"

I don't think you are capable of describing things from God's perspective. Neither was Job.

Just like Job you couldn't answer even one of God's questions. You need a less glorious view of yourself and your questions.

butterbattle wrote:

"I would be interested in that "almost" story if you were interested in sharing it." (Fonzie quote)

It was really pathetic actually.

There was a girl, and, to this day, I still regard her as the only "true" Christian I've ever met. She was always incredibly nice, but not shy. She was moderate, meaning she didn't take the Bible literally and respected science, etc. Instead of preaching to people about her religion, she really led by example. Almost every other day, she had a shirt proclaiming some church or community service group, and she always carried her student Bible with her and frequently read it for pleasure. And, of course, she was attractive.

As a future physics major, I helped her with her math homework. She gave me a Border's Gift Card for helping her, which I used to buy the Bible that I still refer to today. I even started praying to God because of her, kind of like a prolonged experiment. What really scares me is that when I was praying, it's like I was trying to attribute any little thing to God. If some strange coincidence had occurred during this period, I might have converted to Christianity.

Basically, I was emotionally swindled. It took me years to return from a fence sitter to an agnostic atheist.

And that's why I wrote this, "from my own experiences, I assume you already understand all, or at least most of the problems associated with your religion. If you're intelligent, the issue is not that you have failed to recognize these logical fallacies, it's just that the wonderful feeling that you receive eventually grows so powerful that it overwhelms reason. This "faith," this "Holy Ghost," possesses the same effect as alcohol, caffeine or nicotine; you become addicted to it."

No, this is a common mistake man makes - to try to carnalize spiritual things.

In other words, we tend to try to approach spiritual things in the worldly sense - such as tying them to our "feelings".

An old cathedral with high ceiling, old beams and pews, colored windows, flickering candles, sweet music might make a lot of people think they are having religious thoughts.

But the Scriptures would have us "lock on" to Jesus - Who is the same yesterday, today and forever - through faith.

In other words, we can have an unchanging relationship with the Living Christ through our spirit and the gift of the Holy Spirit in us - seen clearer and clearer through the eyes of faith.

This "spiritual life" has to be brought alive - from death to life by us being "born again" in Christ, by the water and the Spirit. Then, it (the gift of grace) needs to be maintained. Fire needs not only to be sparked and fanned into life but fed - with the Word of God and applied spiritual experience. You learn from the athlete that important things take dedication and focus and perseverance.

You looked at the idea, turned away, and now think you are qualified to regard it as bogus? That isn't reasonable to me. Take another look today. Today is the day of salvation.

And yet, you say that your experience of Jesus is internal and not demonstrable.

ooops! You lose! Can you see the contradiction here? please explain how you reconcile this.

See, how can you say you put trust in Jesus when you can't be sure if you can trust yourself to pick the right things to trust in? How do you know you are trusting Jesus and not Satan?

you sound more like a Satan worshipper to me - and I trust myself and perspective.

Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly.

Isaac Asimov

You have an ever so slight way of changing what I said. These things are recognizable: heart, mind, spirit - and the Word of God, the Mind and Heart of God revealed to us by the Spirit of God through the Scriptures and the gift of the Spirit of God in the "born again" believer.

Also, yes, there is the spirit of Satan and his demonic spirits.

Jesus has brought me from death to life in Him. I discern these things mentioned above.

My will is steward of this earthly real estate and I have decided that when it comes to a choice between what thought is in my mind versus what thought is in the Word of God - there is no contest. I trust the Word of God more than any of my thoughts.

The scenario of all this is a war zone, and there has been spiritual violence in the past among these - and casualties. And I am on guard ready for more violence if necessary.

Plans don't always work as smoothly as planned in war and seeing through the confusion you describe has been a struggle. Fortunately I discern a Shepherd, a Captain leading me in this battle. The intensity has been very high at times - examining the very things you mentioned, even being blindsided by them.

As far as ignorance; who is truly ignorant but the man who forgets his God?

Wisdom may be misrepresented to you as clever wording. Jesus didn't withhold the bread of life by hiding it in eloquence. He Who the world was created through and in Whom it holds together humbled Himself even to death on a cross.

There is a violent war of discernment concerning these things within us and without. The transforming power of faith in Jesus knows that if He says it - it's true. That ends all the doubts and questionings and speculation of men.

With this power from Him I am brought to life that is life indeed and led on to life eternal.

(Oh, and I never were a theist either, so I never "went to America". I was simply lucky enough to be born free of it all. But perhaps I'm just misunderstanding your analogy completely, and this is completely irrelevant. I don't know. It's just too weird for me be sure of what you're trying to say.)

Not being born a "theist" is no barrier to examining the gospel of salvation in Christ.

Of course not, and I have. I have found it to be not only untrue, but downright silly, and in parts appalling.

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In a sense it makes you a good candidate. I would just encourage you to deal with your examination of it honestly with yourself - not letting anybody here or around you interfere. I think we all respect a lack of guile and the courage it takes to stand on what you understand to be true - knowing others aren't going to chime in and applaud. It takes faith in something to do that.

No, it doesn't. I don't have faith in anything, yet if I were put in a room full with creationists, I would still maintain that they're wrong and evolution is right.

In order to take that confident a stand you have to have faith in something.

Proper Gander wrote:

I have considered the theist's position. In fact, at one point in my life I tried to become one. But I failed, because no matter how much I tried, I could not choose my beliefs. I could not believe without evidence, and frankly, there is none - for any god. That's why I'm still an atheist today.

Would you say the thought of eternity is in your mind - or are you like the cattle in the truck on the way to the slaughterhouse where Temple Grandin the famous autistic has designed it so that even there mercifully they don't anticipate what's coming?

If the answer to every question is 'faith' then why bother asking for our 'reasons' for our lack of it?

Faith is not the focus (not faith in faith). Faith is spiritual eyesight. The focus is on the living Christ. Through the eyes of faith one can see the present and living Christ. The focus is not on the eyes but what the eyes see.

Ya know, I was raised a theist, in a southern Baptist family no less. My friends and neighbors all followed similar paths. While a Christian, which I was for nearly 20 years, I saw my fair share of lies, thievery, adultery, greed, and hypocrisy in my fellow Christians. I wrote it off as human nature, and kept my faith. I was never militant about my beliefs, but they were present nonetheless.

In the autumn of my teens, I had a bit of a personal crisis which caused me to peer even deeper into religion in hope of answers to my problem. I attended a nearby college and studied theology. Unfortunately for my faith, the college didn't teach fundamentalist theology. Instead, I started learning troubling things that made me forget my problem for the moment. My comparative religious studies illustrated how much of the Bible, a book I in hindsight must have thought was written in a vacuum, actually had origins in older, pagan writings. To my dismay I found that the story of Noah was actually Sumerian. I was shocked to learn that the creation event in Genesis was hacked together from the Enuma Elish. I almost cried when I discovered that the Song of Solomon was ripped from Egyptian love poetry. The more I studied, the more I discovered that the Bible was nothing more than a plagerization of older pagan myths.

By age 20 I had dropped Christianity along with my aspirations of becoming a minister. I switched my major to Near Eastern history, and began looking into alternative religions. But my eyes had been opened already, and I found myself subjecting the latest religious dabbling with the same scrutiny that I had previously subjected the Bible to. They all fell short. I was a hopeful agnostic without a path. Ever reaching, never finding.

By age 30 I was comfortable in my agnosticism, married to a young lady with her children in tow. It was then that I, always an avid reader, chanced upon a copy of Carl Sagan's The Demon Haunted World. Ironically, this was the book that truly opened my eyes and gave me hope. I discovered a new way of looking at the world, a way that didn't involve blind faith, fantasy, or invisible sky fairies. I felt enlightened, illuminated, invigorated! It wasn't all smooth sailing, though. There were several nights that I would wake up in tears, thinking " Oh, shit! I'm gonna die someday, and when do, game over! ". But with the cold, grey light of dawn, I would realize that, while this was true, there really wasn't anything to become frightened about. After all, before I was born I didn't exist, and there wasn't anything scary about that. And after several false starts, I finally made the transition to atheist.

I read books on atheism, agreeing with virtually everything I read. I read books that argued against atheism, and dismantled their arguments piece by piece for the sheer joy of mental exercise. But, like my Christian self, I wasn't militant. I kept my mouth shut. I also had a stunning revelation at this time. Despite what I had been taught about atheism, I had not eaten a baby, had not ran amok through the streets killing, looting, and raping, and had not even cheated on my taxes! In fact, my ethical code had grown stronger as I found that I had no invisible sky daddy to blame my actions on.

Three years later I finally gave voice to my atheism in a local newspaper, in response to a fundamentalist minister's letter to the editor. Within a matter of days I had received death threats, had a brick thrown through my living room window, had my dog poisoned, and had child protective services called to my house on a claim that my wife and I were subjecting my stepchildren to Satanic rituals. Do you know what my crime was? The fundy preacher was petitioning to have the town officially change the name of Halloween to Noah's Neat Treat Night. When I read this in the paper, I unloaded on the idiot, explaining, with references, how his religion had already stolen Christmas and Easter from the pagans, and insisted that enough was enough.

Dozens of exchanges followed, with only two people coming to my defense, a Wiccan and a Catholic priest. The priest jumped in when the fundy, after responding to a comment I made about saint Brigid being a pagan goddess, stated that " Catholics aren't Christians! ".

When the smoke had cleared, there was nothing left but some broken glass, a cherished four legged member of my family dead, and a soiled reputation ( though the Satanic abuse allegations were found to be false, naturally. ).

Then and only then did I become a militant atheist. I began debating creationists, even at their doorstep, the Creation Evidence Museum in Glen Rose Tx for instance. I pushed the Campus Crusade for Cthulhu in mockery of the Campus Crusade for Christ. I found the debate rooms on MSN, and became an evangelical atheist. And the really sad thing is, none of this would ever have happened without the violence and hatred thrown at me by god fearing, evangelical Christians that were willing and ready to assault anyone that challenged their interpretation of the Bible.

I am not a blissfully happy atheist, but then again, I wasn't blissfully happy as a Christian. What I am is a better educated, more aware, and vastly more critically thinking person that has a vision of making the here and now a better place to live rather than squeezing shut my eyes and hoping for a glorious afterlife. I am more inclined to generosity because I don't believe that the poor will be rewarded in heaven. I don't harm others because I know that this life is all that they have. I don't lie because I feel that the corruption of information is the closest thing to a sin there is. All in all, I think that makes me an incomparably better person than I was as a Christian. It works for me, and thanks to my Christian neighbors, it makes me want to spread the good news to everyone so it can work for them as well. Who knows, maybe it will spare the life of someone else's dog!

It takes a village to raise an idiot.

Save a tree, eat a vegetarian.

Sometimes " The Majority " only means that all the fools are on the same side.

If you taste the heavenly gift and then turn away you are in worse shape than before.

Oh my, I must be in a terrible shape.

butterbattle wrote:

What is this Door? If I start with the assumption that God exists, Jesus is the Messiah, and the Bible is infallible, then everything will make sense, and I will be able to find the diamonds. Isn't this what you're saying?

Fonzie wrote:

The only way to come to God and comprehend the Scriptures is by accepting Jesus.

Ah, so your answer is yes. The reason I think this religion is ridiculous is because I'm not analyzing it from the right angle. I must first have faith in Jesus Christ and accept Christianity as true and then everything will make sense. Once I already believe in it, then I will be looking at it from the right angle. Otherwise, I'm too biased. ¿Verdadero?

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Diamonds are the metaphor for "precious", "most valuable" - facets of Jesus.

And I can't see these diamonds unless I accept the Messiah as my Lord and Savior first. I can find wisdom in Socrates's philosophies as well. What makes Jesus's teachings better? What makes them different from any other parable?

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You are rejecting your false impression.

Cough. Exodus 21:20

butterbattle wrote:

Furthermore, don't I have to assume that I understand the Bible? After all, you also make the assumption that you understand the Bible, except you understand it as true. If I don't understand it, this means I should automatically believe in it? That doesn't make any sense either.

Fonzie wrote:

The Scriptures can produce faith. You do have an honest part in this though. While on earth Jesus ask certain people to follow Him - and they refused. Some had their excuses; some had their heart set on other things.

Yuck! You're just playing dodgeball with my arguments like every other Christian. What would it take for you to actually respond to my stronger arguments?

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"To your loss" - If the Word of God is true, which It is, you are missing out on the most important thing in life.

Arrg, go put a sock in your Pascal's Wager.

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Why should you believe in Christ?

Because you are a rebel and an insurrectionist - and Jesus is your most controversial choice.

His is the most violent (spiritual) war with the most vicious opponent. His is the only challenge that will satisfy you eternally

What are you talking about? Challenge? Satisfy? Controversial? I don't give a shit about any of those things. Can you comprehend the idea that my political and religious positions are based on logic and reason?

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Would you say "pang of conscience" is a "feeling"?

What is a conscience???

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Because I'm talking about something different and unchanging - unlike feeling.

You're confusing feeling and conviction.

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I know it's profitable because I'm living in the house built by the wisdom of Christ, established by understanding, and decorated by knowledge.

It's a cool house and I'm enjoying it.

Why do you have to use a metaphor? Just explicitly state that it's an emotional crutch because that's you're really saying anyways.

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I agree and I don't condemn them.

The Bible does.

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I'm looking here at your opinion of God and I'm looking at what God has done.

Now you're appealing to ethos?

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Some things He has done are not completely explained. Enough is explained for me to live comfortably with the mysteries. You ignore great things that are simple to understand and clear - to rather focus on your excuse. Why is this?

Oh Allah, I hate this argument. Stop begging the question!

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(it's promised in Scripture, thus no one will ever be able to say before the universe that they cried out to God for insight and understanding and He didn't give it).

What happens if I do it?

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When John the Baptist was preparing the way, he preached repentance. Some don't want to do that first step - thus they don't have that much desire to find God in Christ.

Ugh, can't you make even one coherent, logical argument? Please?

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Some might have to get off their own throne and humble themselves before God.

Secular humanism. FTW!

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There's nothing false about this.

Except for the whole thing.

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A man can see he is not God.

Well, I'm not Jehovah, but I AM GOD AS YOU. (lol)

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The Scriptures say there is no other Name in heaven or on earth by which man can be saved.

Well, my scriptures say there is no other name in heaven or on earth by which man can be saved except the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Of course, it's completely your choice. You can choose to believe or not believe. However, His Noodleliness really hopes that you'll believe because if you don't, you'll be cast into Pastafarianism hell, where they only have American beer and the strippers have VDs.

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It also says the things you mention - things men might regard as "good" are filthy rags and a few pesos before God.

Our own righteousness won't hold up before God. We have to humble ourselves and accept the Righteousness of God - which is Christ's death.

*yawn*

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That is the gospel which you reject, which you could have if you wanted.

This is ludicrous. Whether or not I want to believe it is irrelevant. It simply depends on whether this gospel can logically establish its validity to the intellectual community. I don't give a shit what I WANT 2+2 to equal, only what it actually equals, which is four.

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Instead you want to put confidence in "goodness" - or in the lie that God doesn't exist.

Begging the question.

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I don't think you are capable of describing things from God's perspective. Neither was Job.

Oh, but YOU can.

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Just like Job you couldn't answer even one of God's questions.

I feel like you're using Star Wars to teach me physics.

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You need a less glorious view of yourself and your questions.

I need a less glorious view of my questions? This is very telling.

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No, this is a common mistake man makes - to try to carnalize spiritual things.

In other words, we tend to try to approach spiritual things in the worldly sense - such as tying them to our "feelings".

But you haven't even proven that there's a difference.

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An old cathedral with high ceiling, old beams and pews, colored windows, flickering candles, sweet music might make a lot of people think they are having religious thoughts.

But the Scriptures would have us "lock on" to Jesus - Who is the same yesterday, today and forever - through faith.

Uuuuhh, and the difference is???

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In other words, we can have an unchanging relationship with the Living Christ through our spirit and the gift of the Holy Spirit in us - seen clearer and clearer through the eyes of faith.

You haven't actually explained..........anything.

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This "spiritual life" has to be brought alive - from death to life by us being "born again" in Christ, by the water and the Spirit. Then, it (the gift of grace) needs to be maintained.

Fire needs not only to be sparked and fanned into life but fed - with the Word of God and applied spiritual experience. You learn from the athlete that important things take dedication and focus and perseverance.

*sigh* This is getting nowhere.

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You looked at the idea, turned away, and now think you are qualified to regard it as bogus? That isn't reasonable to me.

Uuuuuuhhh, non sequitur, much?

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Take another look today. Today is the day of salvation.

Hahaha.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare

If the answer to every question is 'faith' then why bother asking for our 'reasons' for our lack of it?

Faith is not the focus (not faith in faith). Faith is spiritual eyesight. The focus is on the living Christ. Through the eyes of faith one can see the present and living Christ. The focus is not on the eyes but what the eyes see.

Your eyes don't see Christ. You don't have faith.

Thanks for the compliment.

See you next Sunday for your weekly visit to remind yourself of your faith.