BEIT SHEMESH (December 25) - The organization that administers Orot school in Beit Shemesh issued an apology yesterday for publicly burning a copy of the New Testament a student received from Christian missionaries.

"Everybody knows we made a mistake," said Jordana Klein, spokeswoman for Sha'alei Torah. "We wouldn't do it again. We don't think it's the right thing to do."

The book-burning took place in the school courtyard the week before Hanukka, after a teacher in the boys' school found that one of his sixth-grade students had brought in a Hebrew copy of the New Testament.

The student received it from local missionaries who, according to Klein, have been active in proselytizing Beit Shemesh children.

"The teacher said: 'God sent it and He gave us the privilege, and we'll be able to burn the New Testament," said Ariel Lesnick, 11, who is in the class.

The teacher consulted with the principal, Rabbi Yair Bachar, said Klein. After receiving approval, the teacher - whose name Klein refused to divulge - took his class outside.

Then, Lesnick said, "We took a few sticks and we burnt it." The teacher emphasized that the book-burning was an anti-missionary activity and not an anti-Christian one, Lesnick said.

After receiving calls from angry parents, Bachar reconsidered the decision, which Klein described as "too hasty." He consulted rabbinic authorities on the issue and decided to appoint Rabbi David Spector - rabbi of the Givat Sharet neighborhood of Beit Shemesh - as a permanent rabbinic decision-maker for the school.

Spector ruled that missionary material should be burned, but it is the sole responsibility of the owner to burn it and the burning should take place in private.

"It was appropriate to burn the New Testament in private," wrote Spector in his ruling. He cited traditional and modern rabbis, including Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, who wrote that he had burned missionary texts, which he called "books of incitement and brainwashing." Such burning is permissible even if the texts include the name of God, Spector said.

The teacher said that if missionary material were found in the school again, it would be thrown into the garbage rather than publicly burned, said Lesnick.

The Education Ministry was not aware of the incident, said spokeswoman Orit Reuveni.

"In principle, the ministry condemns book-burning as an educational act," she said. "We are not aware of this incident, but we will investigate the matter in depth."

Wayne Firestone, director of the Anti-Defamation League here, said the apology is a positive reaction to the school's "inappropriate" decision.

"The issue of conversion obviously is a sensitive one, and school officials are entitled to make requirements to try to protect their students from inappropriate materials entering the school," he said.

"At the same time, the symbolic and actual imagery of burning any books is really an inappropriate reaction to any offensive material. We're encouraged to hear that the school has issued an apology, and we hope that from the apology, they can send a better message to their own students about tolerance of other religions."

Since the burning, Bachar has addressed teachers, parents, and students - particularly the sixth-grade class - about the issue. He emphasized that the school is not against Christians but against Christian attempts to convert Jews, said Klein. The school is also planning programs to increase tolerance, she said.

The student who brought the New Testament in is not the only one missionaries have targeted. After the book-burning, one of the other students in the class said missionaries came to his home and hung a crucifix behind the mezuza, said Lesnick. The family told the missionary they didn't want the crucifix and returned it, he said.

"We obviously have a missionary problem," said Klein. "We weren't even aware of how big a problem it is in our school."

The students that missionaries approach are generally among the native Israelis and immigrants who make up about 40 percent of the student body and tend to live in old Beit Shemesh, said Klein. That section is poorer than the newer section populated mostly by Anglos, who comprise 60 percent of the student body.

The Anglo-Israeli divide may have contributed to a difference in the approach to burning the New Testament. Lesnick, whose family immigrated from New Jersey four years ago, saw that distinction among the boys in his class. "The Israelis thought it was the right thing to do, but for the Americans, you're used to seeing [non-Jews] every day, and you don't do that to somebody that's just a little different than you," he said.

His father, Marc, also noted the difference nationality may have made in the decision. The teacher, he said, is an Israeli who has never left the country. But as an American, he said, "This is not the type of education I want my kids to have. In America, they let you practice your religion, you let them practice their religion, and you kind of coexist."

Book-burning may also invoke different images for Anglos than for Israelis. "The idea of burning in general in our minds has to do with Kristallnacht and the KKK and so on," he said.

But once he brought the issue to the attention of the school, said Marc Lesnick, it "very quickly took the matter really seriously and dealt with it properly afterward."

Lesnick found out about the burning when Ariel came home from school. "My son got home from school that night, and he actually said to me, 'Dad, you know what we did today? Well, we burned the New Testament.' I said, 'You're joking,'" said Lesnick.

He discussed it with the teacher, and a few days later Bachar came to his home to talk about the incident. Lesnick is glad that they have told him they would "definitely not do this again."

Rev. Ray Lockhart, director of the Jerusalem-based Israel Trust of the Anglican Church, said burning the New Testament so publicly was "going over the top somewhat." Lockhart, whose organization focuses on ministry to the Jews, added that it's preferable to get a signed statement from parents before giving Christian scriptures to a minor.

"Clearly no Jewish person would want to see the Tanah being burnt, and would feel that whoever did it, it was an affront to their beliefs," he said.

But the school's apology, said Lockhart, mitigates the offense. "I think it shows that it's sometimes good to have second thoughts, and to recognize that we can all make mistakes in the way we make a response off the cuff without really thinking through all the implications."

The teacher said that if missionary material were found in the school again, it would be thrown into the garbage rather than publicly burned, said Lesnick.

Anyone doubts that a teacher in a Christian school wouldn't throw Jewish/Muslim or any other missionary material into the garbage?

This wasn't just "missionary material" but the New Testament of the Bible. If a Christian school threw a Torah or Koran into the garbage it would be (rightly) seen as an act of intolerance or hate, and an encouragement toward ignorance.

This attitude is more reminicent of Nazis than persons in a free democracy. It's too bad the Jews are so threatened by an established book.

No. The letter that you refuse to comment on, was comparing the usage of BC/AD to "smack in the face". Playing dumb, or being dumb? Who's forcing whom here?

So? For him its a smack in the face to use the name of a false prophet in the whatever Jewish text he was writing about? You yourself are acting like he smacked you in the face by not acceptiong your savior. The parallel is rather clear. You two can relate quite well.

Because I stated that it's the sentiment that is revealed.

Isolated case. Puuuhlease... someone on FR "suggested" something.. So? look at the history. If you want to talk about sentiments, I think I can find more on sentiments of people against Jews, then the other way around. Russia for example is historically anti-semetic. But I am not bringing it up till now, as to not to imply that I have pre judged you and that your sentiments were revealed to me because you are russian.

It's an attitude (confirmed by your scepticism about "historically Christian"), that is manifested in attempts to further secularize this country.

Scepticism? Where's my scepticism. I'll repeat for you again, because you appear to be slow. Most of the first americans were Christian. Yet, freedom of speech AND freedom of religion were the first american values. Going by your logic, this country is historically WASP, and you being Russian Orthodox... well, you get the drift.

You'll be very suprise to learn that many activists have Jewish names.

There are always many Jewish names on either side. Which allows people like you spin any issue in every each way. My grandmother's grandfather was killed by Petlurovzi. Some family on my father's side owned a factory prior to revolution and had to run to South America when communists took over. My mother's grandfather was a communist (with Kotovsky), he was killed by Stalin in 1939. A lot of my family was killed by the nazi's in WW2, etc. As you see, you can spin my family any way you like. Some ran from the communists, some ran with the communists, etc,etc,etc. Most families in russia, Jewish or not, had a communist in the family. In fact, if you listen to communists in Russia today, they will blame Jews for their failure... STILL TO THIS DAY.

By that I suggest that the overwhelming majority of top Bolsheviks were Jewish, and that they were driven by hatred to Czarist Russia with what they perceived was unfair treatment of Russian Jews.

Tops capitalists were and are Jewish as well. What's your point?

I offered you two instances on this thread. I am sure there is much more evidence available, and if you want I will be flagging you on relevant threads.

This is a very intersting thread. A lone teacher burns new testament because someone tried to preach Christianity to his student. And rightly you are outraged because no one should be burning a holy book. You are not however outraged that someone is trying to convert Jews in a historically Jewish state of Israel. Yet, some Jew in USA doesnt' want to use a Christian date, and you are outraged, that he is living in a (according to you) historically Christian country and etc.. You see the parallel?

Lets modify the scenario slightly. Say you are sending your kid to a private school here in America that stresses Christian, Conservative, Free Enterprise, traditional American values. A group comes to your community and starts handing out copies of the Communist Manifesto to your kids as a means of encouraging membership in the Communist party. Would it be as wrong for one of the teachers to burn a copy of the Communist Manifesto?

Yes. Let the ideas speak for themselves. If you believe in the first amendment, the truth will win out in the end. In the case of this poor school, their final decision is to "trash" any further New Testaments that they receive, so no student will have the opportunity to judge for themselves whether the Jesus of the New Testament is the Messiah prophesied in the Old. Likewise, with the Communist Manifesto, better to read it young and debate and discard its' tenets as false than to encounter it later in a less discerning environment.

I don't know how the fact that you accept it is relevant here, apart from not being very suprising in light of what I was saying.

Well. You asked me. I told you. If now you don't find your own question to be relevant, then you have in fact caught your own tail :)

The Bolsheviks destroyed almost all the churches in Russia. The grunt of oppression was on the church, after the Bolshevik revolution.

Oh? There were quite a few churches in Odessa, but not a single temple (keep in mind, that odessa was 30-40% Jewish at one point)

I asked to confirm my guess about you.

That's a very good guess. Shows that you know that there were no temples and no Jewish schools in USSR, yet you still attempt to show that Bolsheviks were anti Christian, where in reality they were more anti religion (any religion). My grandmother's grandfather was a Rebbe. Not a Rabbi - a Rebbe (for those who don't know, in Hasidic branch of Judasm, rabbi is more like a priest - someone who does service in the synagogue, where Rebbe is more like a Bishop - a regional authority figure on religious issues). My grandmother went to a Jewish school in Ukraine before the revolution, and her whole family was quite religious. The only reason that I am not is... surprise, the revolution. You can rest assured that my kids will be much more religous that I am. So, kopchenaya kolbasa and etc, is quite temporary, even those who shop on brighton manage to give their kids opportunities to become more Jewish (so to speak) then they had.. I don't remember participating in that discussion, because the quesion is a weasely one, used to disown "atheistic" Jews.

Not at all. Being Jewish is an ethnicity as well as a religion.. You are even trying to prove it by saying that Jews that are not religious have something else in common?

Neither the BCE/CE system or the BC/AD system have now or ever had a year 0. There is only 1 BC or 1 AD--its the same system thought up by a Christian monk (very likely wrong, as you state) in the 5th Century--however both are based on the "traditional" (and incorrect) estimation of the same date--namely Jesus birth. The reason it is the "Common Era" is due to the influence world wide of Christian culture...

To me it seems pretty disingenuous for academia for whatever reason to try to sanitize BC/AD since it really is the same Christian based and invented calender after all...

Would it be as wrong for one of the teachers to burn a copy of the Communist Manifesto?

Are we receiving $3 billion a year in military and foreign aid from a Communist country? Then I suppose we could burn the Communist Manifesto and not worry about offending anyone we depend on for our very national survival.

Because anyone who talks about some debt being due from this unpleasant incident need go no further than that to demonstrate that any 'bill' has been paid in full. If that is not enough for them, the full story would not change them either.

>>>That is probably why they said they were wrong, apologized, and set a process to avoid such mistakes in the future. Now when do you expect to see an apology from the Islamists massacring Christians in Indonesia on Christmas Eve?<<<

I'd like to see a thread sometime on why Jews don't proselytize. It's sort of unsettling for me, I guess, that there is that essential understanding of God's belief that all human beings are not created equal. A sort of Calvinistic or pagan belief in the inexorable fate that is being Elect or Depraved.

It's very interesting to me how the one major faith which does not (and, by all rights, should not) proselytize has such disproportionate influence in obtaining government decrees against the public display, even, of other faiths.

I guess their runner-up, as it were, would be the Patriarch of Moscow who -- somehow dissatisfied with the government proclamation that netted the rebuilding of his Cathedral and home with corporate funds -- petitioned and obtained a ruling from the State that only the State Faith could be practiced in public though other faiths were tolerated in private.

So? For him its a smack in the face to use the name of a false prophet in the whatever Jewish text he was writing about?

For him it's a smack in the face when someone else is using a Christian reference when "writing about a Jewish event", that is he's forcing someone to use BCE/CE. It's not about him not having a choice, it's about someone else not having a choice.

Isolated case. Puuuhlease... someone on FR "suggested" something.. So? look at the history. If you want to talk about sentiments, I think I can find more on sentiments of people against Jews, then the other way around.

Well, that's an interesting topic, too vast to discuss within this thread. You can join in in the future when something relevant comes up.

Russia for example is historically anti-semetic. But I am not bringing it up till now, as to not to imply that I have pre judged you and that your sentiments were revealed to me because you are russian.

If you accept that Jews are historically anti-Russian or anti-Polish, then your statment may be just an observation of a reaction. If you don't accept that, than your statement is self-serving.

Scepticism? Where's my scepticism. I'll repeat for you again, because you appear to be slow. Most of the first americans were Christian. Yet, freedom of speech AND freedom of religion were the first american values. Going by your logic, this country is historically WASP, and you being Russian Orthodox... well, you get the drift.

Since you are being slow, let me explain. This country was founded by Christians and while it wasn't legislated, that was the character of the country. With Christians being the majority, that has always been prefered by the majority of the population. WASP is not a religious phenomenon, and WASPs have a lot in common with other Christians from Europe. But because this is not legislated, militant minorities take advantage of that to impose their will of removing Christian references to suit their religious preferences.

There are always many Jewish names on either side. Which allows people like you spin any issue in every each way. My grandmother's grandfather was killed by Petlurovzi. Some family on my father's side owned a factory prior to revolution and had to run to South America when communists took over. My mother's grandfather was a communist (with Kotovsky), he was killed by Stalin in 1939. A lot of my family was killed by the nazi's in WW2, etc. As you see, you can spin my family any way you like. Some ran from the communists, some ran with the communists, etc,etc,etc.

Just because a large fraction of Russian Jews didn't like the Communists, doesn't change the facts, that Bolshevism was sympathized with by a large fraction of Jewish population and they saw it as saving them from oppression.

Most families in russia, Jewish or not, had a communist in the family. In fact, if you listen to communists in Russia today, they will blame Jews for their failure... STILL TO THIS DAY.

Commies today in Russia reflect the changing character of Communism in the Soviet Union, with it migrating from being represented by Jewish Bolsheviks of the Bolshevik revolution period, to a more nationalistic one. It was inevitable given the minority status of the Soviet Jews, and given that Stalin removed so many of them from positions of power. I don't see any contradictions. Communism was, on average, favored by the Soviet Jews at one time, and then eventually when it wasn't benefitial to them anymore, they became refusniks and anti-Communists.

Tops capitalists were and are Jewish as well. What's your point?

When Communism was "good for the Jews", they were Commies.

This is a very intersting thread. A lone teacher burns new testament because someone tried to preach Christianity to his student. And rightly you are outraged because no one should be burning a holy book. You are not however outraged that someone is trying to convert Jews in a historically Jewish state of Israel. Yet, some Jew in USA doesnt' want to use a Christian date, and you are outraged, that he is living in a (according to you) historically Christian country and etc.. You see the parallel?

I see that you still haven't comprehended that it's not a Jew who doesn't want to use a Christian date, but a Jew who doesn't want someone else to use a Christian date, because it's a "smack in the face".

Well. You asked me. I told you. If now you don't find your own question to be relevant, then you have in fact caught your own tail :)

You told me and started to theorize why I asked you. I find it kind of amusing how you misinterpert the simplest of things.

Oh? There were quite a few churches in Odessa, but not a single temple (keep in mind, that odessa was 30-40% Jewish at one point)

How many temples were there before Bolshevik revolution, and how many churches?

That's a very good guess. Shows that you know that there were no temples and no Jewish schools in USSR, yet you still attempt to show that Bolsheviks were anti Christian, where in reality they were more anti religion (any religion).

Bolsheviks were anti-religion, but what motivated them right after the Bolshevik revolution, was destroying the traditional Russian culture. Christians were persecuted MUCH MORE than Jews, with thousands of priests executed and churches destroyed.

Not at all. Being Jewish is an ethnicity as well as a religion.. You are even trying to prove it by saying that Jews that are not religious have something else in common?

You'd have to do better than quote from your memory.

Guy, you need to chill out with a nice cold bottle of Baltika

I have finally found someone from Brighton Beach, who emigrated from Odessa. Finally my stereotypical Ukrainian Jew is on FR!

By the way, since Jews in the Soviet Union, just like everyone else, were so thouroughly secularized and assimilated, you aren't very different from just about average person from the former Soviet Union. In fact, Brighton Beach looks like a street in a province in the Soviet Union.

It's ironic, that Brighton Beach residents may be more Soviet now than folks in Russia. Tell me, why do they dress like low-life "gopniks" in Russia would, in Adidas pants and leather jackets?

You either refuse to believe what you read, or you think people are too stupid. There are more than 1 person involved in the burning. And they had to consult a rabbi, after the outrage, whether they did anything wrong (no, it wasn't obvious to them). And as the rabbi pointed out, bibles should be burned in private.

I'd like to see a thread sometime on why Jews don't proselytize. It's sort of unsettling for me, I guess, that there is that essential understanding of God's belief that all human beings are not created equal.

Not created equal? Excuse me? That's exactly the kind of crap the breed anti semitism. If anything Christianity spreads that not all human beings are created equal. For one to be "saved" he has to become a Christian. How equal is that? There is nothing of sort in Judaism. If you want to convert to Judaism, that's fine. If it doesn't, then that's fine too, it doesn't affect anything. Easy as that.

For him it's a smack in the face when someone else is using a Christian reference when "writing about a Jewish event", that is he's forcing someone to use BCE/CE. It's not about him not having a choice, it's about someone else not having a choice.

Not having a choice??? Forcing? The guy suggested to the other guy. Did he put a gun to his head or threaten him? You are imagining things.

Well, that's an interesting topic, too vast to discuss within this thread. You can join in in the future when something relevant comes up.

It already did. Somehow Jews are responsible for BC/ACE stuff... Did you even research how it came about before you pointed fingers?

If you accept that Jews are historically anti-Russian or anti-Polish, then your statment may be just an observation of a reaction. If you don't accept that, than your statement is self-serving.

Elaborate.

Europe. But because this is not legislated, militant minorities take advantage of that to impose their will of removing Christian references to suit their religious preferences.

To suit their religious preferences? You were just telling me that non religious Jews do this?? What religious preferences do they have? You keep contradicting yourself..

Just because a large fraction of Russian Jews didn't like the Communists, doesn't change the facts, that Bolshevism was sympathized with by a large fraction of Jewish population and they saw it as saving them from oppression.

Kind of like russian peasants/workers so it as saving them from oppression?

I don't see any contradictions. Communism was, on average, favored by the Soviet Jews at one time,

Now you are being plain silly. And by the average it was favored by Soviet russians, so what's your point?

...and then eventually when it wasn't benefitial to them anymore, they became refusniks and anti-Communists.

Psychobabble. When communism was good for the russians, they were commies.. Putin was KGB, was he not?

I see that you still haven't comprehended that it's not a Jew who doesn't want to use a Christian date, but a Jew who doesn't want someone else to use a Christian date, because it's a "smack in the face".

And? As a republican I don't want democrats to do a lot of things to this country, what's your point? Him merely suggesting something to another Jew is just that.. a suggestion.. BC/AC and BCE/CE are currently two standards. USA is officially using BCE/CE... Now, this guy is writing stuff about Judaism to other Jews. What's wrong with the other guy suggesting that he doesn't use Christ, if he has an option not to? How does that offend you?

You told me and started to theorize why I asked you. I find it kind of amusing how you misinterpert the simplest of things.

Not theorizing at all. Merely stating facts as they happened.

How many temples were there before Bolshevik revolution, and how many churches?

Odessa was 30-40% Jewish at one point. It was proportionate.. Jews were pretty religious before the revolution. Yet, there wasn't a single functioning temple and quite a few churches when I was a kid.

Bolsheviks were anti-religion, but what motivated them right after the Bolshevik revolution, was destroying the traditional Russian culture. Christians were persecuted MUCH MORE than Jews, with thousands of priests executed and churches destroyed.

That's such bull and you know it. Russian traditional culture spread all through asia and was forced on other ethnicities that made up the Soviet Union. In fact, I have several friends who are from Uzbekistan.. And they are very surprised at how much more freedom of religion they had there, then Jews in ukraine/russia did. People on the whole were not anti semitic in Asian republics, and Caucus republics. What's interesting is that Armenians and Georgians, who are christian orthodox themselves, got along with Jews just fine. I had quite a few relative in Baku as well, and people from that region were not anti semitic at all.

I have finally found someone from Brighton Beach, who emigrated from Odessa. Finally my stereotypical Ukrainian Jew is on FR!

Great. I have finally found a good ol' stereotypical Russian. So, you didn't answer when I asked if you believed Protocols of Zion to be true or not... So do you?

By the way, since Jews in the Soviet Union, just like everyone else, were so thouroughly secularized and assimilated, you aren't very different from just about average person from the former Soviet Union. In fact, Brighton Beach looks like a street in a province in the Soviet Union.

Uh. That's the stupidest thing I heard. We have a completely different culture, don't beat our wives, and etc :). As I said, just because I am not as religous as others are, doesn't mean my kids won't be. I am bringing up my kids Jewish.

It's ironic, that Brighton Beach residents may be more Soviet now than folks in Russia. Tell me, why do they dress like low-life "gopniks" in Russia would, in Adidas pants and leather jackets?

Lame. Those are usually the russian relatives of the few Jews who marry ethnic russians.

Proselytizing minors is a criminal offense in Israel, where the population is about 80 percent Jewish.

Interestingly none of you is speaking out against these missionaries comitting crimes. What surprised me even more, is that those 2 american women who got arrested in Taliban, actually DID do missionary work for which they got arrested. No one even mentioned how stupid they were to go there and do missionary work when they KNEW it was against the law.

Not having a choice??? Forcing? The guy suggested to the other guy. Did he put a gun to his head or threaten him? You are imagining things.

A Jew complaining to a newspaper because they used a Christian reference in an article is not putting gun to someone's head, it's complaining and trying to force others not to use what Jews find offensive.

When they see Jesus, they'll wish they had read the NT and not burned it. This is nothing more than a bunch of arrogant Jews who are sure Jesus is not the Messiah. Besides, they content themselves with the fable that Jesus's body was stolen.

Fortunate for them Jesus said "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do." Even so, these people, and millions just like them have a lot of brass. "Hey Jesus," they shout, "in your face!"

Yeah, well, who knows, maybe the Lord Jesus, the King of the Jews will be in their face when it counts.

But, given my belief in Christ--the Messiah who rode an ass--the Jews were the Chosen Ones. (And I believe I can make a compelling case for their having held exactly that "special status" among the rest.)

It's just that the continued operation of "Chosen Ones" absent the incarnation of Jesus -- the Jew -- as Christ leaves them forever distanced somehow from the rest of the family of man (and susceptible to being used in a most calculated fashion, IMHO).

I cannot be a Christian without acknowledging the essential truth of the Jewish tradition and the absolute truth of their having been the Chosen People.

That said -- and though it's not for me to force my beliefs on another or fail to respect a man who loves and is obedient to the truth he knows (rather than culling and governing it as necessary for his own "personal values") -- it's almost painful there is no genuine avenue for, much less interest in, proselytization.

There is no way for me to become a Jew. At the essential heart of the matter, then, there is no way for me ever truly to be equal in the eyes of God.

I'll admit I've no interest in ever reading them cover to cover even if I have perused them looking for clues to the heart of darkness.

One thing that jumped out at me as I was flipping through the book? The way they echoed almost word-for-word Nechaiev's writings on the modeling of the Narodnaya Volya on the Jesuits. "Violence for the body, lies for the soul."

I found it extremely telling that both these so-called Elders AND one of the most militantly atheistic and hateful men ever to walk the planet both took for their own a skewed image of the Jesuits.

The Protocols are not just some bunkum propaganda ... I feel it's quite likely they are the same deadly issue as Nechiaev's Catechism.

If I were seeking an opinion or information on Judaism, I would go to the Jew I perceived was most faithful -- or obedient, in other words -- to the primary source of his faith. I would seek an Orthodox Jew, in other words.

I suggest you do the same where Christianity is concerned.

If you wish, the Catholic Catechism is online and will disabuse you of the misconceptions you have where the "personal opinions" of folks like Luther, Calvin and others are concerned.

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