Ирвинг против Липштадт

Transcripts

1MR IRVING: My Lord, finally, I come to the little bundle of 2documents. It is a rather arcane matter, but again 3I believe the Defence rely heavily on my choice of 4language. Your Lordship will remember the rather heated 5remarks I made about certain Jewish fraudsters and 6racketeer in the United States, Ivan Boesky, Michael 7Milken, and so on. I suggested they were hiding behind, 8they were insulating themselves from public criticism by 9the use of the Holocaust. This is what is now 10scientifically or academically referred to as the 11instrumentalisation of the Holocaust. This is one 12particular example which came to our attention. Mr Melvin 13Murmelstein, who may well be mentioned later on in the 14case, started a claim against the Hertford Insurance 15Company. His lawyers warned the insurance company that, 16as a survivor of Nazi concentration camps during World War 17II, this matter is extremely important to Mr Murmelstein. 18That is page 2, my Lord. On page 6, the insurance 19company's own lawyers warned them, warned the insurance 20company, to settle the $100,000 being claimed, saying, 21 "The lawyer argues that a jury will be sympathetic to a 22man who has survived a Nazi concentration camp", and so 23on. So this is the kind ---- 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is not quite the same point, is it? The 25point that I think you were making in that talk that we 26looked at on Thursday was that Jews who get up to some

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1sort of financial or other misconduct then used the 2Holocaust as a kind of shield against their own 3criminality. 4MR IRVING: My Lord, it may well be that I shall lead ---- 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: This is a slightly use or instrumentalization 6of the Holocaust. 7MR IRVING: It is an insulation which goes on. Perhaps it is 8automatic -- we all have the utmost sympathy with victims 9of the Holocaust, and that includes myself, and I want 10to say that here; but I want to get this one instance in 11now because of the rather ugly note we closed on on 12Thursday evening, and it may well be I will lead further 13evidence which will go more closely to the matter actually 14raised. With that, I end my submission, my Lord. 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: I will put these into, just so we know where 16they are going, J. I think we have got to 8, but there is 17a problem with these loose documents. 18 So that completes what you wanted to say about 19that, Mr Irving. 20MR IRVING: I have completed my submission, my Lord. 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Rampton, you do not want to say anything 22about this matter? 23MR RAMPTON: No, I do not want to say anything about any of 24them at the moment. I may have to come back to some of 25them in due course, but certainly not today. J8, my Lord, 26says Miss Rogers.

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1MR JUSTICE GRAY: Could I mention something that I would like 2to do, I think probably first thing tomorrow morning, if 3that is convenient, and that is to have a look and see 4what the future timetable is looking like, as far as one 5can judge it. I would appreciate there are witnesses to 6be accommodated. We might need to discuss what topics 7need to be cross-examined to and possibly some do not need 8to be. 9MR RAMPTON: I agree. 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: And timing generally. 11MR RAMPTON: I mean, I quite agree with that. One reason, if 12I may respectfully say so, I would say it was a good idea 13to do it tomorrow is that today is a bit uncharted, I am 14chartered, but I do not know where my charts will lead me 15today. But there is also the very good question your 16Lordship has raised on how much more of Evans do I have to 17do? Of course, essentially, that is a question for me, 18subject to being told not to. There are only, I think, 19two big topics left in Evans, that is ReichsKristallnacht 20 -- three, ReichKristallnacht early anti-Semitism of 21Hitler with the Nuremberg rules and Dresden. 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think there is another heading post 23Kirstallnacht, is there not? 24MR RAMPTON: Yes, but that is all part of the same subject. 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: All right. 26MR RAMPTON: My Lord, can I mention something which I think

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1I have mentioned before, which is this, that it would be 2convenient to us if we could have our reading day on 3Thursday rather than Friday of this week for the reason 4that Professor van Pelt has to go to Stockholm on 5Thursday. 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: For a day or for a weekend? 7MR RAMPTON: Only for a day. He is going in the morning and 8coming back in the afternoon, but there is a conference 9that he has been asked to attend and thinks that he 10should. So if we could possibly have ---- 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not see any problem with that. Does 12that cause you any difficulty, Mr Irving? 13MR IRVING: My Lord, we were going to call Dr John Fox as our 14expert witness on that day, but I can easily postpone him. 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is very accommodating. Thank you. We 16will do that first thing Thursday morning, if that is all 17right with both of you? So we can now press on with 18cross-examination. 19MR IRVING: My Lord, I am calling Mr Peter Miller as a witness 20tomorrow, but he will be relatively brief, I think, on the 21events in Moscow. 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: That raises a question that I have canvassed 23before. To what extent are we going to have to go through 24quite voluminous evidence on the Goebbels' diaries? To 25some extent I am in both of your hands. I have made no 26secret of the fact that whilst I understand, Mr Irving,

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1your complaint about it, and I have seen the way the 2Defence is put, in the end is it a topic that we benefit 3by spending a very great deal of time on? 4MR IRVING: On the Goebbels' diaries. 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: On the Goebbels' diaries and the breach of 6the agreement or whatever it was. 7MR IRVING: My Lord, I am accused of having breached agreements 8in Moscow. This is what I will certainly ask Peter Miller 9to evidence on. 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: This is really in a way addressed to 11Mr Rampton as he will understand. 12MR RAMPTON: There are really only two points left in Moscow. 13There is an admission that plates were removed without 14permission. The question, was there any significant risk 15they might be damaged? Second, how many plates? Now, 16whether that is more than about half an hour's 17cross-examination -- nothing more than that, I doubt. 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, well and good. That is, I think, all 19it really merits, frankly. 20MR RAMPTON: That is how I see it. There is the additional 21point, of course, that Moscow would be, if it fell 22anywhere in the case, a section 5 question. 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is what you say. 24MR RAMPTON: That is what I believe, and it may be against 25everything else I will take a view (and it will be my 26decision) that it pales into insignificance.