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EchoStar's new MPEG-4 compression algorithm to be compatible with MPEG-2 receivers.

In remarks made recently to an industry group, EchoStar's Director of Engineering said that MPEG-4 AVC, the company's soon-to-be-deployed compression algorithm will be "reverse-compatible' with DishNetwork's existing installed base of MPEG-2 receivers.

It was said that DishNetwork will launch a new product line with MPEG-4 capability and MPEG-2 reverse compatibility, with both HD and SD outputs. He said that Dish will introduce new HD content in MPEG-4 and will launch more local city digital broadcasts in MPEG-4, Dish will also migrate SD content to MPEG-4.

EchoStar's new MPEG-4 compression algorithm to be compatible with MPEG-2 receivers.

In remarks made recently to an industry group, EchoStar's Director of Engineering said that MPEG-4 AVC, the company's soon-to-be-deployed compression algorithm will be "reverse-compatible' with DishNetwork's existing installed base of MPEG-2 receivers.

It was said that DishNetwork will launch a new product line with MPEG-4 capability and MPEG-2 reverse compatibility, with both HD and SD outputs. He said that Dish will introduce new HD content in MPEG-4 and will launch more local city digital broadcasts in MPEG-4, Dish will also migrate SD content to MPEG-4.

How would that work??? If MPEG-2 receivers can process this MPEG-4, what would be the point of MPEG-4 receivers? This does not make sense unless they found a way to software decode MPEG-4 on existing receivers.

Interesting. I've been wondering how they planned to handle the transisition. Seems really complicated. If you bring out MPEG4 receivers before content, who would buy them. If you bring out MPEG4 content without backward compatability, who could watch it.

Aside from that, I've been excited about getting local HDTV, since I'm in the Chicago market, which will be one of the first, I susupect. Then I got to thinking about it. Our local cable has Chicago HD locals for ABC and NBC. They haven't been able to get permission to carry Chicago FOX in HD and they don't have Chicago CBS in HD either because they can't get permission or because WBBM is still broadcasting a weak signal on channel 3 that gets interference from other Chicago channels. So maybe DISH won't really be able to offer Chicago locals in HD afterall.

From the lips of the director of engineering himself. I personally viewed (watched) his presentation as broadcast on HDNET and recorded it to my new Scientific-Atlanta HD DVR.

I'd like to believe it, but I'm having a REALLY hard time envisioning how it could work. Sounds like another marketing guy promising the moon. I think it's more likely that he means the new (MPEG-4) product line will be backward-compatible with the old MPEG-2 signals.

I understand your skepticism, Mikey, but you must admit, you wouldn't believe "good news" from Dish if it jumped up and bit you on the ass!

First, the information I have posted comes directly from E*'s director of engineering, not exactly some "marketing guy", as you say. Secondly, I'm passing on what I consider to be "big news" to Dish subs. Whether you choose to believe or not is irrevalent, and whether the compatibility of M-4 with M-2, or vice versa, will work is unrelated to your ability to understand the concept. If the top engineer of E* says it works, how much more of an expert are you to say it won't just because you're admittedly having a "hard time envisioning" how it works?

I think they mean that mpeg 2 programing can be seen on a mpeg 4 receiver

I tend to agree ... although that is referered to as backward compatability, not "reverse".

There is always the possibility that they have come up with something 'not quite MPEG4' that can be done through software on MPEG2 boxes to improve throughput. But true MPEG4 requires a larger upgrade. It looks like they are talking about the 411 etc more than than upgrading on current boxes.

In remarks made recently to an industry group, EchoStar's Director of Engineering said that MPEG-4 AVC, the company's soon-to-be-deployed compression algorithm will be "reverse-compatible' with DishNetwork's existing installed base of MPEG-2 receivers.

Makes me think of the Athalon and Celeron processors ... not quite the full processor but some stripped down version that is not as good. Not full MPEG4 but MPEG4 lite.

"MPEG4 AVC alogrithm works on MPEG2 receivers." I hope that part is right.

Back to the top:Makes me think of the Athalon and Celeron processors ... not quite the full processor but some stripped down version that is not as good. Not full MPEG4 but MPEG4 lite.

"MPEG4 AVC alogrithm works on MPEG2 receivers." I hope that part is right.

JL

I really hope they don't try some half-baked software decoding that will let MPEG-2 receivers read the MPEG-4, but not at quite the same level of PQ as a true hardware decoder. This would give Dish an excuse for not upgrading us because we can view the added channels (just not quite as sharp).

They'll do exactly what D* is doing. Swap out MPEG-2 receivers for MPEG-4, in phases.

So E* may have smarter engineers who have figured out how to "blend the fuels, rather than change out the engine in which it is used".

It would be immensely more valuable, to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars, for Dish to figure out a way to imbed a proprietary codec in the M-4 stream so that tens of millions of existing M-2 recevers could decode the signal, rather than to make new M-4 STB hardware "backward" compatible with an obsolete, soon-to-be-abandoned M-2 compression scheme.

So E* may have smarter engineers who have figured out how to "blend the fuels, rather than change out the engine in which it is used".

It would be immensely more valuable, to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars, for Dish to figure out a way to imbed a proprietary codec in the M-4 stream so that tens of millions of existing M-2 recevers could decode the signal, rather than to make new M-4 STB hardware "backward" compatible with an obsolete, soon-to-be-abandoned M-2 compression scheme.

Actually there is a company that did that several years ago. I forwarded the white sheet to dish. It is technically possible for them to add a chip set to current receivers to decode MPEG4 and MPEG2. An example of its use is red laser high definition DVDs. Instead of swapping out 25 million receivers with 25 million receivers they could add chip sets and work on some type of rotation from existing receivers. Any way you look at it, the process is going too cost Dish and Direct a ton of money. But when survival of the industry is at stake, it is a necessary step.

Means the existing receivers won't hiccup when they see Mpeg4 H.264 in the stream, not that the existing receivers will decode it and make a picture.

That's the crux of what I'm reading.

And Nick, to put the full faith in E* engineering because they are not marketing is foolish at best. Look what E* engineering has been responsible for; 921, 942 and the L280-281 software updates. Look at how the 811 has lived a less than stellar product life. I'm sure you can think of more engineering faux-pas than this.

To date, the 942 is claimed to be the pinnacle of achievement for E* engineers, and yet it is still experiencing major problems.

The existing MPG-2 receivers will not show the MPG-4 program streams. Bank on it.

Actually there is a company that did that several years ago. I forwarded the white sheet to dish. It is technically possible for them to add a chip set to current receivers to decode MPEG4 and MPEG2. An example of its use is red laser high definition DVDs. Instead of swapping out 25 million receivers with 25 million receivers they could add chip sets and work on some type of rotation from existing receivers. Any way you look at it, the process is going too cost Dish and Direct a ton of money. But when survival of the industry is at stake, it is a necessary step.

Precisely. In this presentation, Dish also stated that the chipset required to do this is essentially a miniature silicon computer, which, even if the cost could be reduced to only $10, would still cost E* billions to swap out 25 million receivers.

Means the existing receivers won't hiccup when they see Mpeg4 H.264 in the stream, not that the existing receivers will decode it and make a picture.

You'd think. Compatible certainly doesn't necessarly mean capable. But notice the use of words when he says "soon-to-be-deployed compression algorithm will be 'reverse-compatible' with DishNetwork's existing installed base of MPEG-2 receivers" and "launch a new product line with MPEG-4 capability and MPEG-2 reverse compatibility". If you take the first statement and apply it to the second statement, it means that the new MPEG4 signal will be READ by the current MPEG2 receivers. Perhaps the new MPEG4 compression algorithm is MPEG2-hardware friendly by software and requires a new piece of hardware for the MPEG4 receivers to read MPEG4 in full compression. I don't know, I'm not an EE so that's my guess on what's being said.

So E* may have smarter engineers who have figured out how to "blend the fuels, rather than change out the engine in which it is used".

It would be immensely more valuable, to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars, for Dish to figure out a way to imbed a proprietary codec in the M-4 stream so that tens of millions of existing M-2 recevers could decode the signal, rather than to make new M-4 STB hardware "backward" compatible with an obsolete, soon-to-be-abandoned M-2 compression scheme.

The new MPEG-4 receivers WILL be backward-compatible with MPEG-2 because the chipset in the receiver will be backward-compatible. There is no downside to making the new receivers MPEG-2 compatible. http://www.broadcom....7411-PB04-R.pdf

Your MPEG-2 chipset in the current receivers has no idea how to decode MPEG-4. What IS feasible is re-cycling the motherboards in the receivers, either with a pin-for-pin replacement of the MPEG-2 chips, or an entirely new motherboard that fits in the same chassis. That way E* could take the MPEG-2 trade-in receivers, retrofit, and send them out as MPEG-4 receivers.

You can't "blend the fuels" in this vehicle without swapping out the carburator.

Very interesting thread indeed. I am also skeptical that Dish could make a MPEG4 stream work on a MPEG-2 decoder. I am also very confident that the MPEG4 receviers will be MPEG2 compatible. This would have to be the case to make a MPEG2 to MPEG4 transition possible unless you plan on creating exact MPEG4 mirror copies of your MPEG2 stream. Huge waste of bandwidth and I am sure they do not plan to do it.

Nick was what the show on HDNET. I would like to record it and hear it from the source. If Dish has successfully done what you mention in your first post, this has huge ramifications for a number of subs hoping for a box swap with MPEG4.

I am sure there is a lot of skeptism here and I fully understand why. Very interesting indeed....

<strong class='bbc'>New Member of the 9K club & 922/612 User<br /></strong><span style='font-size: 8px;'>"A release is not a release until it is released." - Me. <br />"To the true believer, no proof is necessary. To the non believer, no proof is sufficient." - Peter James (Derived from a Stewert Chase Quote)</span>

When Dish starts broadcasting MPEG4, current customers with MPEG2-only receivers will not be cut off. They will continue to get all the channels they get today with no interruption.

New channels will be added in MPEG4, and the new receivers required to receive those channels will be both MPEG4 and MPEG2 so that once you are upgraded you will be able to receive all the new channels and all the old ones that are still in MPEG2.

What I didn't read, but have always assumed is...

Once they get all receivers in the field swapped by one method or another, they will eventually cut off all the MPEG2 and only be using MPEG4 across the board for all channels. But during the process of conversion they don't want to lose customers so they will keep both technologies active as long as they can.

Sometimes, telling people too much detailed information when they don't understand how things work anyway, just adds confusion where there didn't have to be any.