I know, this is the "Speculation" forum, where *anyone with an opinion (and they all have one) can vent their thoughts using either of their noise-and-wind-emitting orifice's (and its often hard to tell *which one they are using) without any supporting rationale, logic, evidence or any sort of sense at all. And clearly, they all do.. regularly and repeatedly. The stench makes it obvious.

The question you should be asking yourself is .. *Why* would they ?

Do you *really think that they're all just motivated by the milk of human kindness and desperately just want to prevent some random strangers from making a stupid mistake with their money by shouting their opinions on some little 2-bit forum in a back corner of the internet ? That they arent either butt-hurt dumpers, paid-fudsters, wanna-be manipulators or just self-important ("I *know _people_ sonny, you should *listen to *me) blowhards

Hah, right. "Quick, Sell, you will "loose" everything if you dont !", "No, HODL !, We're going to the moon tomorrow, next week/month/year", "You will be broke and shamed", "You will be a billionaire in 5 years", "You will kick yourself for *not selling/buying now".

Yap Yap Yap.

I have yet to see a *single one of them put their own money where their mouth (keyboard) is. They're quick enough to shout "SEE, I Wuz Right !" when it swings their way.

They have super-sure secret insider information ? Great, Go make a bet, short some coins, or do something that shows that they believe in their opinions. Show us their financial acumen by proving how right they are. Nope, they spend their time yapping here and trying to stampede people who are (stupidly) looking for wisdom in a place where any idiot can get up on stage and harangue the n00bs.

First of all, isnt it *obvious that any market that can go from $30 to $270 and back to $90, then to $1200 and back to $350 in a matter of months is being driven *primarily by *SPECULATION ? Duh, its only the name of the sub-forum. If it *does go up to $2000 by Christmas, isnt it *obvious that it can equally as easily come back down again just as fast ?

Get-rich-quick wanna-be's trying to panic the mobs with their talk of Choo-Choo-Trains, Rockets, missed Boats, Beanie Babies, Tulips, Ponzi's and any emotionally-laden historical analogies they can flap about the place.

If you choose to buy a ticket to a roller coaster, *Expect it to be a wild ride. It goes up and down you know. Thats its nature. If you're a scaredy, don't get on. Or take a punt, buy your lotto ticket and go away for a year or so. worst case, you lose it all, best case you make a lot. Dont spend what you cant afford to gamble and you don't have to worry.

Bitcoin *IS* a world-changing technology. There is and has been *nothing like it in the history of the world. It wasn't even *possible until the global internet (which itself is only 20-odd years old as far as the masses are concerned) enabled the reliable high speed interchange of data amongst the average joes. Its the first *new form of stateless money with highly desirable characteristics in millennia.

It Is *very useful in many ways not possible previously. (not going to list them all here). But it *is going to take time for it to settle down and find its place. Collapsing Fiat Currencies, the usual financial shenanigans by stupid governments, the media and the world banking industry are all going to try and make its adoption as slow and difficult as possible, because it *doesn't benefit them, whereas the current system that they own does (at your expense).

Short-sighted idiots who see it purely as a shortcut to their own personal get-rich dreams and speculate wildly will all help to keep it unstable until its market cap reaches the point (billions to trillions) where they can only make little ripples, not big splashes by throwing a few million in and out to panic the gullible and fearful.

I see it primarily as a *Freedom-Tool. My own personal wealth is literally secondary to that. I already live my life comfortably, so would I be significantly happier with a Ferrari in the driveway ? Not in my opinion. Enough is a feast.

But, would I like to be able to save/buy/transfer and do whatever I want with my money without middlemen everywhere taking their cut and telling me what I can and cant do ? Absolutely.

*Thats what Bitcoin offers long-term, and why I believe in it. It is the first form of money that is owned by the people who use it.

Every day, new positive things are happening. People are building new systems based on it. New apps and platforms are being created constantly. Adoption is rising. Its all looking very positive to me.

"Then Why is it going down ?" whine the speculators who bought while it was high. "Because of people like *YOU, who do nothing except buy and sell in the interest of short-term gain, increasing the volatility and doing nothing to contribute to its adoption".

Gamblers trying to climb on top of each other and focussed purely on trying to increase their own personal wealth by predicting movements or trying to fool others into doing so are so short-sighted its both laughable and pathetic.

Do your research, decide if you think it has potential, make your own decision and stick with it. Be patient, help it grow and be more useful. *use it and ignore the emotional price-tickers and the shouters on the street corner.. Anything else leaves you vulnerable to manipulation by panic-merchants with their own agendas.

We now return you to your usual program of Evangelists and Mouth-Frothers preaching their Gospel's for your entertainment. Pass the popcorn.

I have yet to see a *single one of them put their own money where their mouth (keyboard) is. They're quick enough to shout "SEE, I Wuz Right !" when it swings their way.

This forum was warned of the final capitulation since $680, this is the time that we sold the rest of our stash and exited the market. So I'm not sure what you mean when you say that nobody around here follows up on their statements. We sold because it was becoming very clear what was in store, and we were proven right. It's hard not to write a small, "see, told you so" when you're ostracized by the majority of the user base here as a troll for merely attempting to warn others ahead of time.

Should have listened to fallllling! Anyone who did would be much better off now. You can call him a troll all you want, but doesn't change the truth he has been right all along!

You didnt even read what I just wrote did you ? Or at least, you didnt *think about it, just took your opportunity to repeat your "See, Told Ya So, We're right, Im out, shoulda listened to <x>" blather.

Are you really that stupid, or just hoping to derail my attempt to encourage people to think instead of "believe" (ie, act without thought on unsubstantiated advice) by repeating your "Nyah Nyah, I won, follow me" garbage.

You didnt even read what I just wrote did you ? Or at least, you didnt *think about it, just took your opportunity to repeat your "See, Told Ya So, We're right, Im out, shoulda listened to <x>" blather.

Are you really that stupid, or just hoping to derail my attempt to encourage people to think instead of "believe" (ie, act without thought on unsubstantiated advice) by repeating your "Nyah Nyah, I won, follow me" garbage.

I read it, line after line of the same cliches and useless platitudes that the bulls toss around to convince each other that everything is all right, and that it's no problem that they're losing money every day.

ie.

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Dont spend what you cant afford to gamble and you don't have to worry.

gee, how original. this coming from the guy who encourages others to "think for themselves"

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Bitcoin *IS* a world-changing technology. There is and has been *nothing like it in the history of the world.

this is the same dribble posted by bulls constantly, and it means jack shit if the public doesn't have interest. The distributed ledger is a new technology, but it solves a problem that nobody has. Don't believe me? Look at the market. Nobody buying, everybody dumping.

I am *not what most people would consider a bull. I am *not advising anyone to "buy in", or Hold. All Im saying is *make your own decision based on whatever evidence you decide is pertinent.

If some people consider the advice of some random nobody on a forum to be "Good" advice, then so be it. I recommend that they find sources of information more reliable than an anonymous person who has nothing except "see, I was right" on their C.V.

You responded with nothing more than a "See, We warned you, we were right" and point to the current market action as evidence that nobody needs bitcoin, as if the current price is proof of your correctness. Like it makes any difference.

So, you are either too stupid to realise that the price has nothing to do with its usefulness at this stage of adoption, where speculators going "all in" and "dumping" are the dominant price influencers, or you dont like my attempt to encourage people to think about it, and not just follow whichever spruiker shouts the loudest.

I dont care if people "make money" or "lose money" by speculating on it. If thats all you think bitcoin is good for, then you have clearly missed the whole idea behind it.

You responded with nothing more than a "See, We warned you, we were right" and point to the current market action as evidence that nobody needs bitcoin, as if the current price is proof of your correctness. Like it makes any difference.

... you're proposing there's a superior method to gauge the value of bitcoin other than the market exchange rate...?

Usefulness for sending money to others? as a store of value ? a speculative asset ?a non-debaseable-currency ?a way of accepting payments from anyone without having to sign up with a middleman ?

If you define "Value" as "What people think it is worth right now", then fine, thats certainly what the current price shows, but people (en masse) are usually wrong about most emerging technologies "value" in the long-term

If the head of one of the worlds largest tech companies can totally fail to see the emergence of the smartphone/tablet market and dismiss it as too complicated. ("There’s no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant market share. No chance." - Steve Ballmer) then what makes you and your supposed other guru's able to see the future with perfect clarity and confidently announce Bitcoin isnt useful or is over valued ?

Again, I am *not claiming that it *will succeed, I honestly dont know. It looks promising, but there are many hurdles to jump yet.

All I am stating is that basing your investment decisions significantly on the advice of someone anonymous on a forum whos only claim is "See, I was right about this short-term prediction !" (down OR up) is utterly foolhardy.

Usefulness for sending money to others?the market segment that is willing to convert to a new currency (for a fee, mind you) send it to their family or fiends, who will then need to convert it once again to their local currency (again, at a fee) all while the exchange rate could (and probably will) drop, and nothing is insured if the sender fat fingers an address, etc, is very small. People WANT assurances.

as a store of value ?an asset that drops 70% in ONE YEAR is hardly a good store of value. I can't imagine a worse store of value on earth, aside from keeping all your assets tied up in Halloween Jack-O-Lanterns or something perishable.

a speculative asset ?Again, an asset that drops 70% in value in one year is a pretty shitty speculative asset.

a non-debaseable-currency ?bitcoin can easily be debased, but nobody really cares enough to even try this.

a way of accepting payments from anyone without having to sign up with a middleman ?See my point above. People WANT a trusted third party, even if it means there's a fee involved for that service. People -- especially when it comes to money -- don't want to worry about fucking something up, and want ASSURANCES. This is human nature.

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If you define "Value" as "What people think it is worth right now", then fine, thats certainly what the current price shows, but people (en masse) are usually wrong about most emerging technologies "value" in the long-term

This isn't really an "emerging technology" more than a speculative instrument and a mobile payment system, amongst a sea of many. Bitcoin fanatics tell themselves that they're early adopters, because it's all part of the PR package that "you're getting in on the ground floor of something huge". The reality is, lots of people have heard of bitcoin and have a basic understanding of what it is, and they don't need it or want it.

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If the head of one of the worlds largest tech companies can totally fail to see the emergence of the smartphone/tablet market and dismiss it as too complicated. ("There’s no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant market share. No chance." - Steve Ballmer) then what makes you and your supposed other guru's able to see the future with perfect clarity and confidently announce Bitcoin isnt useful or is over valued ?

If Steve Ballmer said that, he's an idiot. I remember a pretty significant demand for the original iPhone, and within a couple years everyone either had one or knew several people who did. Bitcoin is on... year 5 now...? And unless you have a lot of geek friends, you probably don't know anyone who owns any. A smartphone is cool and useful. Bitcoin is just something you hold in the hopes of getting rich. And that's not very cool, when the price has been tanking ALL YEAR.

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All I am stating is that basing your investment decisions significantly on the advice of someone anonymous on a forum whos only claim is "See, I was right about this short-term prediction !" (down OR up) is utterly foolhardy.

Short term? We have warned you all since $680, which was months ago. This bear market is likely to continue for several more months still, and our latest figures are now showing a strong possibility of breaching <$100 again in 2015. We have been right this entire time, in a sea of bullish predictions. It is your choice to ignore our wise advice, but don't blame us when those bitcoin bags get heavier and heavier.

Once again your statements boil down to "We told you so, should have listened to us"

You also indicate poor comprehension skills, Where did I say that *I recommended any of those applications ?

I asked you what *your definition of "value" was and provided some possible examples that people *might find Bitcoin useful for, and you come back at me with your pre-rehearsed anti statements saying why they arent good ones. All referring to the last 9 or 10 months of activity as if "Well, that about wraps it up for Bitcoin" is a done deal.

So. What *is a good indication of value. "What people will pay for it" is the usual simple answer, but that means if people are buying at $1200, then its worth 1200, no ? Clearly not in your book, so you must have a better definition or way or determining it ?

I like the way you claim to know what people need or want too.. Clearly you have missed your calling, why aren't you advising some Fortune 500 company on what products they should make since you seem to have a direct line into what people will find useful.

Is Bitcoin extremely useful to the average Joe in the street *right now*. No, not very. It has some useful applications, but you probably wouldn't use it to buy a loaf of bread when the local scrip is easier (provided you dont hold onto it for two long.. once upon a time 20c would get you a cup of coffee now its more like $5).

Does that mean "*Noone* wants it". Hardly. I know quite a lot of people who will happily take it from you in exchange for their goods and services, who arent "Fanatics", so your statement is clearly false.

Your insistence on focussing on the present-day requirements of "lots of people" is very short sighted. 10 years ago, 80% of the population didnt "need or want" the Internet. A single decade later and most business are more concerned if their Internet or Website is offline than they are if their phones are out of order.

Long-Term (talking in years-to-decades here, not months), thanks to its unique properties that no other form of money has, Bitcoin *may well become a *lot more useful to people who suddenly find that their fiat currencies arent worth more than the paper they are printed on.

Oh, "Months ago" is *long-term* is it ? You have been warning us for *months".. Oooo. How could I possibly have neglected your advice which is clearly based on *extensive experience and superior knowledge. Silly Me.

Right now, most of the first worlds fiat currencies aren't devaluing fast enough to overly concern most of their citizens who generally have attention spans measured in less than election term months.

But some who have bothered to look into the history of practically *all fiat currencies in *actual long-terms (years to decades) have noticed this

which usually leads to this.

and concluded that maybe, just maybe, a form of non-fiat money might be a good idea to try. But hey, dont worry, you can always keep warm by burning your paper money.. But that wont worry you, you will get out of them too at the right time thanks to your insider-information friends ?

Tell me, do your "friends" who are presumably big "market-movers" (They must be, you *knew this was coming, they told you right ?) know that you are spoiling their chances to "get out" with more money by telling all us poor ignorants of their intention to continue selling (Sorry, "Dumping", it sounds scarier) and driving down the price, and thus giving us a chance to sell before they sell more ?

Oh, I know, They're already "All out" and you're just here to save us all from our own stupidity. right, got it.

You responded with nothing more than a "See, We warned you, we were right" and point to the current market action as evidence that nobody needs bitcoin, as if the current price is proof of your correctness. Like it makes any difference.

... you're proposing there's a superior method to gauge the value of bitcoin other than the market exchange rate...?

Look up the words "value" and "price" in a dictionary. I know it will be hard for you to believe you were wrong about something, but trust me. It will improve your English.

http://haschinabannedbitcoin.com"A purely peer-to-peer version of electronic cash would allow online payments to be sent directly from one party to another without going through a financial institution" - Satoshi Nakamoto

I know, this is the "Speculation" forum, where *anyone with an opinion (and they all have one) can vent their thoughts using either of their noise-and-wind-emitting orifice's (and its often hard to tell *which one they are using) without any supporting rationale, logic, evidence or any sort of sense at all. And clearly, they all do.. regularly and repeatedly. The stench makes it obvious.

The question you should be asking yourself is .. *Why* would they ?

Do you *really think that they're all just motivated by the milk of human kindness and desperately just want to prevent some random strangers from making a stupid mistake with their money by shouting their opinions on some little 2-bit forum in a back corner of the internet ? That they arent either butt-hurt dumpers, paid-fudsters, wanna-be manipulators or just self-important ("I *know _people_ sonny, you should *listen to *me) blowhards

Hah, right. "Quick, Sell, you will "loose" everything if you dont !", "No, HODL !, We're going to the moon tomorrow, next week/month/year", "You will be broke and shamed", "You will be a billionaire in 5 years", "You will kick yourself for *not selling/buying now".

Yap Yap Yap.

I have yet to see a *single one of them put their own money where their mouth (keyboard) is. They're quick enough to shout "SEE, I Wuz Right !" when it swings their way.

They have super-sure secret insider information ? Great, Go make a bet, short some coins, or do something that shows that they believe in their opinions. Show us their financial acumen by proving how right they are. Nope, they spend their time yapping here and trying to stampede people who are (stupidly) looking for wisdom in a place where any idiot can get up on stage and harangue the n00bs.

First of all, isnt it *obvious that any market that can go from $30 to $270 and back to $90, then to $1200 and back to $350 in a matter of months is being driven *primarily by *SPECULATION ? Duh, its only the name of the sub-forum. If it *does go up to $2000 by Christmas, isnt it *obvious that it can equally as easily come back down again just as fast ?

Get-rich-quick wanna-be's trying to panic the mobs with their talk of Choo-Choo-Trains, Rockets, missed Boats, Beanie Babies, Tulips, Ponzi's and any emotionally-laden historical analogies they can flap about the place.

If you choose to buy a ticket to a roller coaster, *Expect it to be a wild ride. It goes up and down you know. Thats its nature. If you're a scaredy, don't get on. Or take a punt, buy your lotto ticket and go away for a year or so. worst case, you lose it all, best case you make a lot. Dont spend what you cant afford to gamble and you don't have to worry.

Bitcoin *IS* a world-changing technology. There is and has been *nothing like it in the history of the world. It wasn't even *possible until the global internet (which itself is only 20-odd years old as far as the masses are concerned) enabled the reliable high speed interchange of data amongst the average joes. Its the first *new form of stateless money with highly desirable characteristics in millennia.

It Is *very useful in many ways not possible previously. (not going to list them all here). But it *is going to take time for it to settle down and find its place. Collapsing Fiat Currencies, the usual financial shenanigans by stupid governments, the media and the world banking industry are all going to try and make its adoption as slow and difficult as possible, because it *doesn't benefit them, whereas the current system that they own does (at your expense).

Short-sighted idiots who see it purely as a shortcut to their own personal get-rich dreams and speculate wildly will all help to keep it unstable until its market cap reaches the point (billions to trillions) where they can only make little ripples, not big splashes by throwing a few million in and out to panic the gullible and fearful.

I see it primarily as a *Freedom-Tool. My own personal wealth is literally secondary to that. I already live my life comfortably, so would I be significantly happier with a Ferrari in the driveway ? Not in my opinion. Enough is a feast.

But, would I like to be able to save/buy/transfer and do whatever I want with my money without middlemen everywhere taking their cut and telling me what I can and cant do ? Absolutely.

*Thats what Bitcoin offers long-term, and why I believe in it. It is the first form of money that is owned by the people who use it.

Every day, new positive things are happening. People are building new systems based on it. New apps and platforms are being created constantly. Adoption is rising. Its all looking very positive to me.

"Then Why is it going down ?" whine the speculators who bought while it was high. "Because of people like *YOU, who do nothing except buy and sell in the interest of short-term gain, increasing the volatility and doing nothing to contribute to its adoption".

Gamblers trying to climb on top of each other and focussed purely on trying to increase their own personal wealth by predicting movements or trying to fool others into doing so are so short-sighted its both laughable and pathetic.

Do your research, decide if you think it has potential, make your own decision and stick with it. Be patient, help it grow and be more useful. *use it and ignore the emotional price-tickers and the shouters on the street corner.. Anything else leaves you vulnerable to manipulation by panic-merchants with their own agendas.

We now return you to your usual program of Evangelists and Mouth-Frothers preaching their Gospel's for your entertainment. Pass the popcorn.

You responded with nothing more than a "See, We warned you, we were right" and point to the current market action as evidence that nobody needs bitcoin, as if the current price is proof of your correctness. Like it makes any difference.

... you're proposing there's a superior method to gauge the value of bitcoin other than the market exchange rate...?

"Prediction: Outside the rigorous context of science, the term "prediction" is often used to refer to an *informed guess or opinion. A prediction of this kind *might be inductively valid *if the predictor is a knowledgeable person in the field *and is employing *sound reasoning and accurate data*.

Hmm, nope, Sorry , what you are doing is called "Guessing". You want a medal, gratitude or humility for guessing correctly ?

If you had posted opinions backed up by verifiable data, and not unsupported personal opinions - without even asserting your qualifications to make such guesses except vague references to "knowing people" - THEN you might be deserving of some credit. As it is, you called a toss correctly, woohoo, may I kiss your feet ?

"Nobody in the real world gives a damn about Bitcoin" huh ?

So I suppose Senates are calling Inquiries, Major players are making opinion statements every day, Tax Departments are ruling on it, businesses are accepting it all over the place, Stock Exchanges are listing its price on their tickers, People are being paid in it, Some countries are lauding it, some are warning against it, and people are living purely on it to prove it can be done..