Justicebringer vs. Lothar's Edge

I raid ToC 25 as our token ret paladin, and I was searching for potential upgrades from the ilvl 245 version of Justicebringer, my current weapon.

Apart from the heroic ilvl 258 version of Justicebringer, I happened across Lothar's Edge, another ilvl 245 axe that drops from the Tribute Chest in 10-man heroic ToC.

Doing a quick comparison, you determine the following: You give up 82 ArPen, and 1 Crit rating moving from Justicebringer to Lothar's, but you gain 4 Str, 78 hit, and a red socket. As I'm already over the hit cap purely from gear and ArPen isn't that great anyway, I'd have to run these two items through Rawr to see which is superior, but the stat allocation made me question the overall budget for both items.

I don't profess to be an expert on stat budgets, but this example seems out of line for two items of the same ilvl. Is this an error in item budget on one of these axes or is ArPen weighted vastly more than hit rating when it comes to stat budgets?

Re: Justicebringer vs. Lothar's Edge

Originally Posted by Relentless

I don't profess to be an expert on stat budgets, but this example seems out of line for two items of the same ilvl. Is this an error in item budget on one of these axes or is ArPen weighted vastly more than hit rating when it comes to stat budgets?

Maybe it's because the 10 man item has "heroic" on it (and most of the Heroic Items in TotC have + 1 socket slot :>)
Without the gem they'd be pretty much equal in budget.

Re: Justicebringer vs. Lothar's Edge

If your only asking about the ilvl budget, then I don't have any answer for you, but if your asking if Lothar's Edge is better than the Justicebriger that you have, then yes it is. Even with all that hit, it will allow you to change out parts of your gear more easily in the future that will help you increase your dps.

Re: Justicebringer vs. Lothar's Edge

Originally Posted by Nillo

Maybe it's because the 10 man item has "heroic" on it (and most of the Heroic Items in TotC have + 1 socket slot :>)
Without the gem they'd be pretty much equal in budget.

I thought the main benefit to "Heroic" items from their respective raids were the increase in ilvl of the items. Unless they added a separate "tier" of "heroic epics" (i.e. Legendary > Heroic Epic > Epic) that change the allowable stat budgets, I would think that the budget would still be a constraint on two items of the same ilvl. Stranger things have happened though.

And @ Eurytos:

Yes, my main question was the ilvl issue. I suspected that Lothar's would be the superior item in any case, mainly due to the additional socket, but Rawr takes most of the guesswork out of that. I just hadn't had the chance to run the app from my current location. Thanks for the post, regardless.

Re: Justicebringer vs. Lothar's Edge

So where RAWR runs the numbers (and since you are over the hit cap) armor pen gives more dps than hit rating beyond the cap.

I'd still grab loathar's edge though to allow for more flexibility in gear.

When running RAWR try not to swap out only one piece at a time, but change up your set....for instance equip loathar's egde then switch out one of your hit rating pieces to get you closer to the cap and see where that puts you dps wise.

Re: Justicebringer vs. Lothar's Edge

After looking at the two weapons, I would agree that there is a budget issue here. I am not surprised because there is another clear misallocation of points between [Reckoning] and [Fordragon Blades]. 2 sockets and very similar stats with the exception of the attack power and stamina. This appears under budget.

Edit: The polearm has 155 Stam while the sword has 103. Using the current stat conversion of 30 Stam=40AP, the sword should have 69 more AP than the polearm. This is not the case. This doesn't even account for the fact that the polearm has less Agi (-2) than the sword.

Re: Justicebringer vs. Lothar's Edge

I recently picked up the Horde version of Lothar's Edge and after playing around in rawr for a while trying to come up with the best possible set up with the gear I had laying around, Lothar's Edge was a significant increase in almost any set up I could create even if I was well over the hit cap. Fortunately I was able to move enough items around to not have that issue. The extra socket plus the base strength increase will push it ahead of Justicebringer given the relatively weak value of ArP in relation to most other stats even if the hit is wasted. To make things short, grab Lothar's Edge if you can. It is a better overall choice.

Re: Justicebringer vs. Lothar's Edge

It appears that Lothar's Edge is the clear winner for a ret paladin in all circumstances, so at least that's settled.

With regard to the iLvl issue, I appreciate the EJ link. I started sorting through the information there and, while I haven't found an answer yet, seems like it may have an explanation buried in the formula section somewhere, at least in respect to my original post and stats vs the socket.

The post by Prentice highlighting Reckoning vs Fordragon Blades is even more telling than my original example, though, and really demonstrates that there must be an item budget error or some other explanation for these discrepancies, possibly an increased budget for "heroic" epics as mentioned above.

I found another possible answer as well. In the EJ post, one of the posters mentioned that on the original PTR for 3.2, some weapons had DPS equal to an iLvL 251 item as opposed to 245, but that this had been later corrected. As much of the new arena gear is iLvl 251, that's not surprising. I'm wondering if these items have the weapon DPS of a 245 weapon but the stats of a 251 weapon in error. In any case, I'll do some more research and post anything I find here.

Re: Justicebringer vs. Lothar's Edge

Originally Posted by Relentless

The post by Prentice highlighting Reckoning vs Fordragon Blades is even more telling than my original example, though, and really demonstrates that there must be an item budget error or some other explanation for these discrepancies, possibly an increased budget for "heroic" epics as mentioned above.

I wish that reasoning worked but it doesn't. Both of the items I linked were from ToGC10 and both are heroic.

Re: Justicebringer vs. Lothar's Edge

Originally Posted by Prentice

I wish that reasoning worked but it doesn't. Both of the items I linked were from ToGC10 and both are heroic.

You're quite right; I missed that. I suppose that leaves us with the guess that some items are still running around with an iLvl 251 budget. Maybe after I sort through more of that EJ post, I'll be able to figure out the math and determine if Reckoning is budgeted as a 251 vs a 245.