Stone Meadow:HotIgneous Intruder: No. Because everything you print that you didn't design yourself is a copyright violation.

You're not that far off from the truth. A couple of makers of high end 3d printers own the patents for high-fidelity printing, which they refuse to license to consumer grade devices. It's as if home computers were still stuck using 286 chips and floppies.

... except, aren't those patents being challenged, with a good chance of being overturned?

Eh, the initial statement isn't really accurate anyways. As I understand, Thingiverse is full of designs with vary degrees of open-ended rights attribution. There is a whole lot of things that you can print that you didn't design, that isn't a copyright violation.

And it's not like you need a lot of skill to design stuff to print anyways. You can use Google's old Sketchup app to make things to print. You can scan real world 3d object and use them as models with everyday devices. Maybe you can print a plastic version of what you scanned freely (of, say, an antique chess piece or whatever, that has no existing copyright on it), or maybe you can't, but want to print something that can be used with it - scan in your iPhone and your favorite tripod, and print a custom case that mounts to your tripod.

Point is, there are more uses for this sort of thing than you or I can list.

wildstarr:When was the last time you did any research on 3D printers, 2003? Everything you said does not apply to 3D printers today.

It depends, what price point are we talking about? After all the cheaper the machine, the worse the extruder is. Shapeways (as an example) aren't making stuff using the cheap end of the spectrum so looking at their output and figuring "that's the quality of an $800 3D printer" will leave you exceptionally disappointed when you fire it up.

We can "explore" space from the comfort of our computer chairs. We won't colonize Mars or build asteroid deflectors. What is difficult to understand or believe about this? "Space tourism" is a joyride for rich people to stare out a Plexiglas porthole for a few minutes in the upper atmosphere. We ain't Starfleet yet. What is difficult to understand or believe about this? It's the same elements all across the universe. Rocks and sand, we have plenty of pictures. We even have Moon rocks. And? This still ain't Star Trek. What is difficult to understand or believe about this?

The species doesn't care, and physics won't let you anyways. The delusions about space are what annoy me.

Stone Meadow:I do agree with you wrt current consumer grade 3d printing...they're toys.

Yes, and the endless hype and bogus uses people come up with them is tiresome. Clearly they've never used one. They think they press a button and they'll be buried in high-quality figurines or something.

Then the usual excuses of "yeah but some expensive industrial process that requires three-phase power and a staff of engineers to run is like 3D printing, therefore my glue gun on a stepper motor at home is just the same!" are equally absurd. What is difficult to understand or believe about this?

Quantum Apostrophe:I love how I'm portrayed as technophobe as I'm sitting between two oscilloscopes...

Yeah, that was kind of weird. There's a laundry list of things you could justifiably be called (and I've used a few of them), but technophobe & Luddite aren't on the list.

I never was a fan of calling those things "3D printers" because I suspected that eventually that term would be used to describe something useful that has very little in common with a printer. The concept of a "custom part fabricator" has merit although it clearly ain't done cookin' yet. I'm curious to see what it evolves into in the next 50 years or so.

Quantum Apostrophe:What is difficult to understand or believe about this? "Space tourism" is a joyride for rich people to stare out a Plexiglas porthole for a few minutes in the upper atmosphere. We ain't Starfleet yet. What is difficult to understand or believe about this?

What you never understand is that people aren't saying "lets goto Mars today", they're saying one day in the future we might be able to goto Mars. Now hush.

Stone Meadow:That said, I do agree with you wrt current consumer grade 3d printing...they're toys.

They're toys now. Ten years ago they weren't available to the hobbyist, and five years ago they'd have cost $10,000, not a few hundred bucks. Those of us with a little foresight can see an awful lot of similarities between home 3d printing and the way home computers changed between the late 70's and the early 80's. And people like you and QA sound an awful lot like this:

"When the computer revolution was unofficially announced in the early 1980s, all indications were that it would change the world. Experts predicted that within five years, every household would have a computer. Dad would run his business on it. Mom would store her recipes on it. The kids would do their homework on it. Today only 15% of American homes have a computer - and the other 85% don't seem the least bit interested. There is a general feeling that the home computer was a fad and that there is really no practical purpose for a computer in the home" -Commodore Magazine, September 1987 edition

We can "explore" space from the comfort of our computer chairs. We won't colonize Mars or build asteroid deflectors. What is difficult to understand or believe about this? "Space tourism" is a joyride for rich people to stare out a Plexiglas porthole for a few minutes in the upper atmosphere. We ain't Starfleet yet. What is difficult to understand or believe about this? It's the same elements all across the universe. Rocks and sand, we have plenty of pictures. We even have Moon rocks. And? This still ain't Star Trek. What is difficult to understand or believe about this?

The species doesn't care, and physics won't let you anyways. The delusions about space are what annoy me.

Gunther:Stone Meadow: That said, I do agree with you wrt current consumer grade 3d printing...they're toys.

They're toys now. Ten years ago they weren't available to the hobbyist, and five years ago they'd have cost $10,000, not a few hundred bucks. Those of us with a little foresight can see an awful lot of similarities between home 3d printing and the way home computers changed between the late 70's and the early 80's. And people like you and QA sound an awful lot like this:

"When the computer revolution was unofficially announced in the early 1980s, all indications were that it would change the world. Experts predicted that within five years, every household would have a computer. Dad would run his business on it. Mom would store her recipes on it. The kids would do their homework on it. Today only 15% of American homes have a computer - and the other 85% don't seem the least bit interested. There is a general feeling that the home computer was a fad and that there is really no practical purpose for a computer in the home" -Commodore Magazine, September 1987 edition

There...I highlighted the relevant words above, so you won't miss them the second time around.

Quantum Apostrophe:3D printing at home is a ridiculous notion, just needs a few more disappointed people and it'll be over. Too bad I'm a realist, eh?

I hope you are wrong in so far as a hobbyist I would absolutely love to have a decent 3D printer. Frankly the current extruder format printers are too crude for my liking and frankly not where i think the technology is going to go. I am much more interested in the ones that "print" the 3D image using an inkjet type head with a resin onto a surface of which is then dusted with the material. This seems like a much more reasonable approach if you want to be able to do anything with any sort of quality.

I agree with you that I do not see this going beyond hobbyist or rapid prototyping anytime in the foreseeable future.

3D printing would be fun, but then there's the cost of a CAD program*, the cost of materials, the cost of the printer itself... that all adds up pretty quickly. Then again, any technologically-oriented hobby tends to turn into a money sink, whether it's 3D printing, R/C models, audio and/or video recording, etc.

* There are some free CAD programs out there, but if you want AutoCAD it's going to cost you.

Speaking as someone who has used AutoCAD for the last 12 years or so on a daily basis, you probably only want to go the AutoCAD route if you feel that you need more stress in your life or perhaps you haven't cast enough expletives at your computer lately.

I just installed a 1997 version of Cadkey on a retired co-workers computer. He preferred that to a current version of AutoCAD. The only thing AutoCAD has going for it is ubiquity.

Stone Meadow:The problem is...you aren't the best. You just type faster than you think.

I don't actually know what your problem is with my post because you're doing the "I won't tell you what my argument is, that way you can't defeat it! I'll just smugly dance around it instead!" thing.

I assume you're gonna claim that you said current 3d printing was a toy and weren't remarking on its future potential, ignoring the fact that you also said you agreed with QA, who's on the record as believing 3d printing is doomed.

Agreed, I did feel it was a crock of shiat and I did contact the mod and was told I should just place him on ignore...

Yeah, because ignoring does any damn thing to stop threads from smelling like shiat due to you guys quoting him. I rightly call him an intellectual coward and get my entire post deleted, while he gets to continue shiatting over and entire tab.

No, I don't. You seriously think sending people to Mars is exploring? We have machines, they're getting better all the time. We're not. Explore from the computer chair. You don't need to actually go there to explore it. This should be obvious. Unless the real goal of "exploring" is some Indiana Jones notion that you'll go there with your Fedora and plant grass on Mars or something.

Do you seriously not understand the hostility of space, or the barrenness of a dead dry rock (but but but but there's ppb of water! Which we found out by sending a machine! Oh...) with no magnetosphere?

What, Venus? Jupiter? Mercury? The asteroids? Put down the sci-fi, it ain't happening.

We can send cameras. We won't send people.

Loki009:Quantum Apostrophe: 3D printing at home is a ridiculous notion, just needs a few more disappointed people and it'll be over. Too bad I'm a realist, eh?

I hope you are wrong in so far as a hobbyist I would absolutely love to have a decent 3D printer. Frankly the current extruder format printers are too crude for my liking and frankly not where i think the technology is going to go. I am much more interested in the ones that "print" the 3D image using an inkjet type head with a resin onto a surface of which is then dusted with the material. This seems like a much more reasonable approach if you want to be able to do anything with any sort of quality.

I agree with you that I do not see this going beyond hobbyist or rapid prototyping anytime in the foreseeable future.

I spent about a year at a local geek club during which time I saw more interest in the machines when they were broken. Which makes sense given what the output looked like. Towards the end they started getting pretty good at not breaking down. I gotta say it was fun watching it print out a main drive gear. However you can get similar plastic gears from any Lego Technic kit or Tamiya or hobby shop or smallparts.com...

And they are cheaper and better.

I realized this was just geek masochism. Doing it yourself just because you can. Sure, I get it. I used to etch my own PCBs, but I didn't think people will etch their own PCBs at home to make their own electronic devices.

This was 20 years ago. I simply send out for my boards to be made professionally these days. Sure, I could get a milling machine and a XY plotter and turn it into a CNC drill machine, but who has the time? And more importantly, who cares?

I just think the overlap of people with the skills and money to effectively use 3D printing is miniscule. These people are already doing it.

Some people will use commercial services to get their models done the right way.

Still won't be this massive sea change. It's delusional to think we'll 3D print full size functional cars at home. People who think that are clueless hipsters who have no idea of the complexity that's behind even simple objects, never mind something like a car.

I just don't see the massive need for this, beyond the ego stroking or the geek masochism. I don't think there are piles of VCRs and DVD players just waiting for a new 3D printed main gear or something.

way south:KellyX: way south: KellyX: Summoning QA to shiat all over this thread... 3... 2... 1...

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Careful, Mod banned me for a day for posting that, told me it was harassing him by doing that *rolls eyes*

I try to be respectful of everyone, but when a guy comes in and commanders every jesus 3d tech thread to the point where nothing gets discussed but his own thread shiatting... Yea, they deserve a jab in the ribs.

/Its understandable that theres always someone who won't like things that others like./but you gotta know when to say your piece and bow out.

Do, sort of like what's happening here without the aforementioned person?

Gunther:I assume you're gonna claim that you said current 3d printing was a toy and weren't remarking on its future potential, ignoring the fact that you also said you agreed with QA, who's on the record as believing 3d printing is doomed.

I don't have to CLAIM anything. I'll just repeat what I wrote: "I do agree with you wrt current consumer grade 3d printing...they're toys."

What's wrong with your reading comprehension? No part of that agrees generally with QA about 3d printing. It is clearly defined as my assessment of current consumer grade 3d printing. I happen to own a prototyping shop with in-house CNC equipment, so can claim to speak with reasonable knowledge of the field.

Built 3d printer from scratch, getting a kick, etc. Fun to build and use, but I don't delude myself and think I'm going to be printing medical implants or spare tires for my car. It's largely a novelty, but I do find it incredibly useful on occasion when working on other projects. Need an oddly shaped part? 30 minutes in openscad + 30 minutes printing, k that'll work. The parts don't look half bad to me, and are fairly strong if you plan it correctly. If you put too much force in the wrong plane, though, they'll shear pretty quickly...

I think my total cost was on the order of $300. To me it's worth that much for the utility alone, not to mention I found the entire process of building it very entertaining.

wildstarr:Vaneshi: wildstarr: Players of games that use miniatures, Warhammer, 40K and the like, would also love one.

Games Workshop have a C&D in the post to you as I type, they don't even want you thinking about that let alone trying it.

Lol! Oh yeah, that thought wasn't far from my mind. As long as you don't try selling a whole army online and call it "3D printed Tyranid army" you should be fine. I agree that the detail might be too much for a "home" printer now anyway.

I was thinking GW should start a program for their dealers where they lease out the 3D printers and the designs. That way the stores get print on demand and GW still gets its cut.

Quantum Apostrophe:I realized this was just geek masochism. Doing it yourself just because you can. Sure, I get it. I used to etch my own PCBs, but I didn't think people will etch their own PCBs at home to make their own electronic devices.

This was 20 years ago. I simply send out for my boards to be made professionally these days. Sure, I could get a milling machine and a XY plotter and turn it into a CNC drill machine, but who has the time? And more importantly, who cares?

Printing will never come to the home or small business because your Epson/HP hobbyist toy just can't compete with a Heidelberg.

C'mon, when you need to print 5 of something, do you use your home inkjet/laser, see if you can buy paper that already has the right words on it, or send a copy of your master off to a printer to have plates made and a press brought up?

/I'll give you injection molding > FDM though//Then again, SLA is a great way to make the masters for injection///If only the resin was cheaper

Uncle Tractor:As we all know, 3d printers will forever stay at the level they are right now. There will be no further advancements of that technology.

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As we all know, further advancements in technology will not make 3D printing obsolete.

ProfessorOhki:C'mon, when you need to print 5 of something, do you use your home inkjet/laser, see if you can buy paper that already has the right words on it, or send a copy of your master off to a printer to have plates made and a press brought up?

Funny how we always end up comparing completely different things. Putting drops of paint on a piece of paper was easy. Do you not see the difference here? How much structural integrity is demanded from a 2D printout?

How many people still even use printers that much in the era of iPhones and tablets and e-ink and whatnot?

Funny how when technology advances it makes certain things obsolete....

But not 3D printing. We'll live in a solid-state digital world with no moving parts because moving parts are so old-fashioned and obsolete...

Quantum Apostrophe:Then the usual excuses of "yeah but some expensive industrial process that requires three-phase power and a staff of engineers to run is like 3D printing, therefore my glue gun on a stepper motor at home is just the same!" are equally absurd. What is difficult to understand or believe about this?

Since when is three-phase power not a household thing? Also, it's clear you're not an engineer.

Quantum Apostrophe:Funny how we always end up comparing completely different things. Putting drops of paint on a piece of paper was easy. Do you not see the difference here? How much structural integrity is demanded from a 2D printout?

Speaking of talking about different things... I use the 2d printing analogy not because they're accomplishing the same thing but because it's a device where the home version is always outdone by the professional version, but it has a place in the way we go about tasks. Perhaps them both having "printer" in the name was too confusing. Maybe I should have asked why they still bother selling sewing machines. I mean, you can just buy a shirt at the store or send a pattern off to a factory to have it made. Why would anyone ever need to sew anything at home? The answers' pretty much the same as 3d printing - it's a fun hobby, it's cheaper for small runs, it's amazing for prototyping, there's a niche industry in pattern creation, and it allows you a large degree of freedom in making things.

Quantum Apostrophe:How many people still even use printers that much in the era of iPhones and tablets and e-ink and whatnot?

Modern commerce, of course, being primarily accomplished through means of hand-written labels.

Quantum Apostrophe:But not 3D printing. We'll live in a solid-state digital world with no moving parts because moving parts are so old-fashioned and obsolete...

No, by all means, come up with a solid state 3d printer. That'd be pretty neat. I mean, I guess you could do SLA via a DLP chip. You'd still have to shift the fluid level though. Maybe a piezoelectric pump? You could get pretty good precision out of it too.

/You're counting MEMS as "solid-state" right?//I mean, you said iPhone

But not 3D printing. We'll live in a solid-state digital world with no moving parts because moving parts are so old-fashioned and obsolete...

Except for 3D printers! Then moving parts are fun again!

I understand your point, QA, but don't jump to conclusions too quickly. As someone pointed out above, wrt to 3d printing we are about where we were with PCs 30 years ago. A more prosaic example of technological persistence is the automobile. Here is a Ford from a century ago...yes, a 1913 Ford Model T.

And here is the control suite of a 1913 Model T...

A driver from a century ago could climb into a 2013 Ford Focus (a modern Model T, arguably) and drive away in it without more than a moment of instruction on how to start the engine. Sure, a lot of the underlying specifics have changed, but the device as a whole is so universally useful that it continues to be made, used and improved upon ubiquitously.

I have a strong feeling computers and, yes, 3d printers will prove as durable.

Dracolich:Quantum Apostrophe: Then the usual excuses of "yeah but some expensive industrial process that requires three-phase power and a staff of engineers to run is like 3D printing, therefore my glue gun on a stepper motor at home is just the same!" are equally absurd. What is difficult to understand or believe about this?

Since when is three-phase power not a household thing? Also, it's clear you're not an engineer.

In 'murica. AFAIK, it's three phase LV grid, but with single phase 240V drops to homes, split with neutral mid. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

And that's what makes him a lost cause, ladies and gentlemen. He's got his head so far up his ass he can't even tell when he's being an asshole anymore. You simply cannot make it clear that he is a combative, condescending bag of shiat. His crusade is too holy, too just. Surely his attitude is justified by his correctness, and it's everyone else's fault for being so stupid and making him be an asshole...

AdrienVeidt:Yeah, because ignoring does any damn thing to stop threads from smelling like shiat due to you guys quoting him.

This. We didn't even need him here, the idea of QA threadshiat has become too strong. It's out of control and has pretty much ruined this tab. But of course, don't hurt his feelings, he's got a firm grip on mod cock or something.

And yet in my lifetime we've gone from XeroxTM machines the size of a Model T (see what I did there?) that cost tens of thousands of dollars to the color laser sitting on my desk right now that set me back a couple hundred. The technology advanced to the point where it was feasible to commoditize it. If you're betting against technological progress you'll lose, nearly every time.

I'll argue that Luddism applies, albeit of a strangely narrow-focused sort. What sets QA above the usual anti-science troll is the unexplainable vehemence of his crusade. You can be counted upon to show a towering frothing passion in your arguments, and a mighty unwillingness to allow any dissenting opinion to tarnish your rage.