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Oh, he means it all right. Not as much as he makes it seem (that's one of the points of Disappearance), but he does have problems with Haruhi, almost more in volume than in nature, aside from her odd sociopathic Kick the Dog moments here and there. She's largely rectified the situation herself by dialing it down from 11, but she still has her lapses now and again. I'm willing to bet that's why Tanigawa gradually introduced the Anti-dan to take part of Haruhi's role in the plot, since Haruhi has gradually been moving from antagonist to McGuffin.

I beg to differ. As much as Kyon may bitch and moan and try to get out of dealing with things, when it gets down to it, he's usually right there at the end resolving the issue at hand. Whether it's killing Haruhi's latest collateral damage-creating buzz, or figuring out what to get Yuki or Itsuki to do to solve the problem (since they rarely act on their own unless it's to stage a problem), or running out into the street to save a little kid and by extension the existence of Mikuru, or changing/ensuring history, or taking a knife in the gut, he's earned his keep. No doubt. The fact that he has flaws only makes him a more interesting character.

I think if Yuki had changed certain things less, primarily herself, he might have considered staying. It wasn't just the SOS-dan members he missed, because he ended up gathering them all up anyway. what he missed were his SOS-dan members, the moe moe Mikuru, the tacit alien bookworm Yuki, and even the force of nature Haruhi. Itsuki he probably liked better as the Yukiverse version... ^_^

Don't let them get you down on the man. He's just a flawed person like the rest of us (his entire point of being). They're just all upset because he's his own primary cause of shipping failure... ^_^

Think about the way existence must seem for Yuki. You are aware of things on a level that is not even conceivable to the human mind. You are constantly in contact with a mind-bogglingly LARGE existence, only it's not so much "in contact with" as on several levels you are it. Now you're about to drop your own considerable existence into the mind of a real human. I'd say it's the equivalent of cutting away your cerebrum, crawling into a thimble, and welding it shut behind you, but that doesn't begin to describe it. The idea of that has to absolutely terrify her, only to be topped by the realization that she can't stop herself from doing it. Wouldn't you want a familiar face around, one who at least on some level can relate to what you're going through?

And she couldn't stop Ryoko any more than Mikuru(small) would have been able to. Tell me that watching that wasn't the icing on her horror cake...

I don't remember that line about Koyouen. I remember a line about the school, but can't remember if they were saying it became co-ed recently or had always been, but there's no reason that memory changes couldn't be part of the Yukification of the world. May not be able to change the fact that 366 days ago it was an all-girls school, but you can certainly change everyone's memories from 365 days ago of it ever having been an all-girls school.

Wow. What is with all the Kyon hate? That's a massive Flanderization based on one incident in Volume 7 where he was a little too busy saving the world (as usual) to realize that Yuki might have taken an invitation to the library a little more seriously than he did. Granted, it took Mikuru(small) to point it out (obvious much?), but it's quite an exception.

When I said that I didn't like Kyon as much as I had it was moreso that he was my absolute favorite anime character, but now that I've looked at aspects of the other members (and even Tsuruya-san) thanks to discussions last fall on this board, I find myself admiring their characters more and less. When you're at the top, there's nowhere else to go but down. I do like the guy still, in fact I prefer him over Yuki and Asakura (I tried to get an Asakura avatar/signature image trend going, but alas failure). I believe right now is just a period where fans aren't particularly fond of Kyon due to the 2009 episodes where it took him eight episodes to end the loop and then almost punched Haruhi for (in the anime) a minor occurrence of getting Mikuru drunk and tapping her on the head. Yuki made her world perfect for trying to capture Kyon's heart for herself, but there was one thing that prevented that from happening: Haruhi Suzumiya in both worlds. If it wasn't for the Kouyouen Haruhi taking action, Kyon wouldn't have been able to go back. If it wasn't for the memory of Haruhi from the normal world, Kyon wouldn't have raced to find that Haruhi.

As for Yuki, I picture her as an organic computer when she was first made that's grown to experience life as a human and all that's come with it. I don't want to give too much away to try and entire people to read my post, so I'll stop my point there. I do agree that seeing Ryoko stab the person you're falling for and not being able to do anything about is a gutwrenching feeling. Just look at how Mikuru couldn't even see straight when that happened. I think that's possibly why she refused to synchronize with the December 18th version; to try and say "I'm not going to make this mistake happen again. He's decided and I'll protect him from now on."

Here's the line from B-T's translation:

Quote:

"If I'm not mistaken, she's enrolled in the high school at the bottom of the hill, just in front of the station. She's already a bright person, so it's only natural that she would study in such an elite high school."

Elite school?

"Is Kouyouen really that good? I thought they were a girl's school for the rich and famous."

Taniguchi looked at me with pitiable eyes and said,

"Kyon, I don't know what they told you in junior high, but that school's always been co-ed. Not to mention it's one of the top schools in university entrance rate in this prefecture. To have such a school in our district really pisses me off!"

Kaisos, your line made me laugh. Evidently Haruhi's power is the power of plot devices! If you have no objection, I may use that in my post tomorrow.

Wow. What is with all the Kyon hate? That's a massive Flanderization based on one incident in Volume 7 where he was a little too busy saving the world (as usual) to realize that Yuki might have taken an invitation to the library a little more seriously than he did. Granted, it took Mikuru(small) to point it out (obvious much?), but it's quite an exception.

I meant that he really doesn't consider her in the same way he does Mikuru or Haruhi, after she starts fading into the background of the plot again.

That is, even after he promises to stop relying on her to solve everything, that's exactly what he continues to do book after book.

And did I say I hated Kyon? I don't. He's my second favorite character after Koizumi. It's Yuki that I don't like.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ultimatemegax

Kaisos, your line made me laugh. Evidently Haruhi's power is the power of plot devices! If you have no objection, I may use that in my post tomorrow.

Location: Shitty old London. They must've been on drugs when they built this place, WTF were they smoking!!!

Age: 31

Something just came to mind...
To those of you who have a good memory (its been a while since I read the novels), did it at any point say whether present Nagato (at least up to just before vol.4) retains memories of vol.4 Kyon and adult Mikuru visiting her place shortly after putting vol.3 Kyon and Mikuru in frozen state?

So really my question is, did she already know she was going to alter the universe right from the beginning of the series? I know she tried to connect with her future self but was denied, but she still learns of the reality change in the future.

Standing there was the figure of the last person to come visit me, Nagato Yuki.
As usual, Nagato said without any emotion,
"I am responsible for everything that has happened."
For some reason, I felt nostalgic at hearing this calm voice.
"My punishment is currently being assessed."
I lifted my head and asked,
"Assessed by whom?"
"The Integrated Data Sentient Entity."
Nagato said calmly, as though it had all happened to someone else instead.
Of course, Nagato had long known she would create a ruckus on the morning of December 18th.
Because I had gone to visit Nagato three years ago with the adult Asahina-san. She knew all
along, and she tried her best to prevent it from happening. Yet there was no way to stop the tide.
Sometimes even if you knew what was about to happen, you just couldn't avoid it. No, it was
possible to avert it...
I suddenly thought of the behavior and mannerisms of Nagato after summer, which were slightly
different from before,
"But," I interrupted her, "If you knew you were going to go astray three years ago, you could've
told me any time, couldn't you? Whether it was after the school festival, or before the baseball
tournament. In that case, I would've been able to take action earlier in that specific time on
December 18th. Then all that would've needed to be done would be to call everyone out and
travel back to three years ago again,"
Nagato's expression was as cold as ice, there was hardly a smile,
"If I had told you beforehand, my astray self would still have been able to erase all your
memories concerning the incident and change the world. Besides, no one can guarantee that
something that hasn't happened will ever occur. The best I could do was to keep you in your
original state when December 18th arrived."

That largely depends on how you look at things. If you look at it from the perspective that the time line was "fixed," then there would be no way for her to have those memories, as she never experienced them in the first place. If you look at it from the perspective that what Kyon experienced is what really happened during the three day period and everyone else has false memories of those days, then it's possible she remembers those events.

In an effort to make things short: Probably not.

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Actually, going by the timeline here, post-Disappearance Yuki will retain the memories of the alternate December 18-20 timeline. It was never mentioned that Alt!Yuki got erased/deconstructed, or that her memories got altered.

Actually, going by the timeline here, post-Disappearance Yuki will retain the memories of the alternate December 18-20 timeline. It was never mentioned that Alt!Yuki got erased/deconstructed, or that her memories got altered.

Actually, "Kyon is the only person with memories of having experienced BOTH versions" pretty much says that Nagato doesn't retain any memories of it.

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Location: Shitty old London. They must've been on drugs when they built this place, WTF were they smoking!!!

Age: 31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ice Block

Actually, going by the timeline here, post-Disappearance Yuki will retain the memories of the alternate December 18-20 timeline. It was never mentioned that Alt!Yuki got erased/deconstructed, or that her memories got altered.

Yeah this is pretty much what I thought as well, but just wasn't 100% sure. I wanted to see what everyone else makes of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane

Actually, "Kyon is the only person with memories of having experienced BOTH versions" pretty much says that Nagato doesn't retain any memories of it.

But it was never really explicitly mentioned that she doesn't retain memories of those three days.

I was more pointing out that the timeline Ice Block had linked to specifically states Kyon is the only one who remembers the other 18th through 20th.

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Haruhi's ability to outright create data is what the IDTE is interested in, and to them, everything is data.

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To put it in simple physics terms, Haruhi is able to violate the Conservation of Energy/Mass principle, by creating matter/energy from nothing.

The IDTE on the other hand can only convert existing matter into other forms.

Thank you for putting it in those terms. That was how I'd been thinking of it, but had been unable to come up with the right words to articulate it to myself. I feel like a great weight has been lifted, because now I can go "aha, physics conservation laws!" and not have to do an hour of mental circumlocutions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by darksassin

So, that means IDTE can erase someone from existence and replace it using the same data?

Right. It's like, in a way, http://www.fancyfastfood.com or using the pieces from one mosaic to create a completely different picture/pattern, for two very general and broad and not entirely accurate examples, since data can change form, too. Kind of like turning a pair of blue jeans into a sheet of paper, except the IDTE wouldn't need all the in between steps or extra things like water or paste. Or, actually, I forget how jeans get made into paper besides shredding them and using a window screen and water, it's been ages since we did that in elementary school.