TuteTibiImperes:The 911 call recording has the operator telling Zimmerman that he doesn't need to Trayvon, but he does anyway.

No, what the call recording (it was the non-emergency number) has is an operator hearing Zimmerman exit his vehicle and take off running. The operator asks if Zimmerman is following and Zimmerman replies "yes". The operator then says "we don't need you to do that", to which Zimmerman replies "okay" and stops running.

So you see how you've just misrepresented the facts of the case, right?

Popcorn Johnny:gimmegimme: As I've said a number of times, the main reason I enjoy these threads is because I simply don't understand your inability to grasp---even if you still luv Zim---how Trayvon Martin could have been defending himself or how he could have been afraid of Zim.

I'm not sure if I agree with your conjecture that Martin was the aggressor, seeing as how Zim was the one on a lengthy armed pursuit (that seems pretty aggressive to me!), but I can at least hold the ideas you're saying in my head.

This is intelligence: being able to hold conflicting ideas in one's head.

We don't know who started the fight, I've said that many times in these threads. You keep saying "armed pursuit" and that's not what happened. Zimmerman was never perusing Martin, he briefly followed him around a corner. You seem to want to make it out as if Zimmerman was running through the neighborhood, gun drawn, in pursuit of Trayvon. The reality is that he ran for less than 10 seconds after exiting his vehicle when Trayvon took off running and disappeared around the side of one of the buildings. After that, there's no evidence that Zimmerman regained sight of Trayvon and followed, or chased after him.

I have never believed that Zimmy pursued Martin with gun drawn. You are having trouble with words.

Armed: Zimmy had a gun and knew it.

Pursuit: "carrying out of a plan, design, order, etc.; the action of proceeding or acting in accordance with a plan, method" Zimmy PLANNED to keep himself aware of Martin's whereabouts and acted in accordance with that plan.

Popcorn Johnny:gimmegimme: As I've said a number of times, the main reason I enjoy these threads is because I simply don't understand your inability to grasp---even if you still luv Zim---how Trayvon Martin could have been defending himself or how he could have been afraid of Zim.

I'm not sure if I agree with your conjecture that Martin was the aggressor, seeing as how Zim was the one on a lengthy armed pursuit (that seems pretty aggressive to me!), but I can at least hold the ideas you're saying in my head.

This is intelligence: being able to hold conflicting ideas in one's head.

We don't know who started the fight, I've said that many times in these threads. You keep saying "armed pursuit" and that's not what happened. Zimmerman was never perusing Martin, he briefly followed him around a corner. You seem to want to make it out as if Zimmerman was running through the neighborhood, gun drawn, in pursuit of Trayvon. The reality is that he ran for less than 10 seconds after exiting his vehicle when Trayvon took off running and disappeared around the side of one of the buildings. After that, there's no evidence that Zimmerman regained sight of Trayvon and followed, or chased after him.

According to this timeline there is a period of about 5 minutes between when the dispatcher told Zimmerman he doesn't need to follow Trayvon and when the fight broke out. Now, it's possible that Zimmerman was just hanging out on the sidewalk during those five minutes, but why would he do that when he was right by his truck? Why not get in and continue on his way? What seems more likely - that he just decided to chill out on the sidewalk or that he was still searching for Martin?

Popcorn Johnny:TuteTibiImperes: The 911 call recording has the operator telling Zimmerman that he doesn't need to Trayvon, but he does anyway.

No, what the call recording (it was the non-emergency number) has is an operator hearing Zimmerman exit his vehicle and take off running. The operator asks if Zimmerman is following and Zimmerman replies "yes". The operator then says "we don't need you to do that", to which Zimmerman replies "okay" and stops running.

So you see how you've just misrepresented the facts of the case, right?

TuteTibiImperes:What seems more likely - that he just decided to chill out on the sidewalk or that he was still searching for Martin?

I'm not saying that he didn't continue looking around the area for Trayvon. Seems like a bit of a coincidence that the altercation took place in pretty much the same spot Zimmerman was when he finished his call to police, but it could have happened. Even if he lingered in the area looking for Trayvon, what does that mean when it comes to his claim that Trayvon attacked him and that he was in fear for his life when he took out his gun and fired?

Popcorn Johnny:TuteTibiImperes: What seems more likely - that he just decided to chill out on the sidewalk or that he was still searching for Martin?

I'm not saying that he didn't continue looking around the area for Trayvon. Seems like a bit of a coincidence that the altercation took place in pretty much the same spot Zimmerman was when he finished his call to police, but it could have happened. Even if he lingered in the area looking for Trayvon, what does that mean when it comes to his claim that Trayvon attacked him and that he was in fear for his life when he took out his gun and fired?

I dunno. Zimmerman has a documented history of violence and a documented history of lying to the court; he's not very trustworthy.

gimmegimme:No, I am saying that Zimmy's "OK" does not prove anything. Why don't we stick to the facts of the case?

It does prove something, that he stopped running after the person on the other end of the phone said that he didn't need to be following. We also know that Zimmerman reported losing sight of Trayvon and that he stayed on the phone for almost two minutes after that.

How about you lay some facts out that prove that Zimmerman is guilty of murder, rather than defending himself from a violent assault? Remember, we don't need to prove that Zimmerman is innocent, we need to prove he's guilty. Now's your chance to do that.

Popcorn Johnny:gimmegimme: No, I am saying that Zimmy's "OK" does not prove anything. Why don't we stick to the facts of the case?

It does prove something, that he stopped running after the person on the other end of the phone said that he didn't need to be following. We also know that Zimmerman reported losing sight of Trayvon and that he stayed on the phone for almost two minutes after that.

How about you lay some facts out that prove that Zimmerman is guilty of murder, rather than defending himself from a violent assault? Remember, we don't need to prove that Zimmerman is innocent, we need to prove he's guilty. Now's your chance to do that.

Duder, I can speak the words "I had sex with Kristen Bell for several years in the early-to-mid 2000s," but that doesn't prove anything, does it? Zimmy lied to the court about how much money he had and that wasn't exactly true, was it?

And I never said that Zimmerman is guilty of murder; can we stick to the facts of what I'm saying?

Y U ACKNOWLEDGE ASSAULT OF MARTIN ON ZIMMY

BUT NO ACCEPT AT LEAST POSSIBILITY OF ASSAULT OF ZIMMY ON MARTIN, ESPECIALLY WITH FATAL GUNSHOT WOUND?

gimmegimme:Duder, I can speak the words "I had sex with Kristen Bell for several years in the early-to-mid 2000s," but that doesn't prove anything, does it? Zimmy lied to the court about how much money he had and that wasn't exactly true, was it?

What does the lying about his bank account have to do with what you're claiming in regards to Zimmerman remaining on the phone with the police for 2 minutes after he stopped running? Come on man, lets hear where you're going with this. Are you saying that the whole time he was on the phone, he had Trayvon in his sights and was just waiting to end his call before pulling out his gun and busting a cap?

Popcorn Johnny:gimmegimme: Duder, I can speak the words "I had sex with Kristen Bell for several years in the early-to-mid 2000s," but that doesn't prove anything, does it? Zimmy lied to the court about how much money he had and that wasn't exactly true, was it?

What does the lying about his bank account have to do with what you're claiming in regards to Zimmerman remaining on the phone with the police for 2 minutes after he stopped running? Come on man, lets hear where you're going with this. Are you saying that the whole time he was on the phone, he had Trayvon in his sights and was just waiting to end his call before pulling out his gun and busting a cap?

I am saying we don't know the facts. All we have is testimony from a demonstrably unreliable and obviously biased witness.

What worries me most is your lack of empathy. Even if you think Zimmy should walk free and clear, that's fine. But you should be able to understand the possibility that Martin was scared for his life.

gimmegimme:I am saying we don't know the facts. All we have is testimony from a demonstrably unreliable and obviously biased witness.

We also have an eyewitness that say Trayvon on top of Zimmerman throwing punches just before the gunshot was fired. In the end, that's all that matters.

gimmegimme:What worries me most is your lack of empathy. Even if you think Zimmy should walk free and clear, that's fine. But you should be able to understand the possibility that Martin was scared for his life.

If Martin was scared for his life, he would have been home long before Zimmerman even finished his phone call. You are aware that when Trayvon went running around the corner of the building, he was less than 100 yards away from home right? Aside from the proximity to his home, Martin didn't call 911, run around screaming for help, or bang on doors looking for help. There's not one bit of evidence that he was scared, and a whole lot that he wasn't.

Popcorn Johnny:gimmegimme: I am saying we don't know the facts. All we have is testimony from a demonstrably unreliable and obviously biased witness.

We also have an eyewitness that say Trayvon on top of Zimmerman throwing punches just before the gunshot was fired. In the end, that's all that matters.

gimmegimme: What worries me most is your lack of empathy. Even if you think Zimmy should walk free and clear, that's fine. But you should be able to understand the possibility that Martin was scared for his life.

If Martin was scared for his life, he would have been home long before Zimmerman even finished his phone call. You are aware that when Trayvon went running around the corner of the building, he was less than 100 yards away from home right? Aside from the proximity to his home, Martin didn't call 911, run around screaming for help, or bang on doors looking for help. There's not one bit of evidence that he was scared, and a whole lot that he wasn't.

If I'm being chased by a potential rapist or murderer, someone who is making me fear for my life, I'm certainly not going to lead that creepy weirdo to my loved ones.

Seriously, it's disturbing that you can't even understand how Martin could have been afraid, even if you don't think he was.

gimmegimme:By your logic, Zimmy was not scared. He did not stay in his car. He did not tell 911 where he would be waiting for the police.

If Zimmy no scared, Zimmy no self-defense?

See, now you're just being a moron. Zimmerman was being assaulted and had every right, even if he was the aggressor, to use deadly force to protect himself. If all you're interested in is trolling, find somebody else.

Popcorn Johnny:gimmegimme: By your logic, Zimmy was not scared. He did not stay in his car. He did not tell 911 where he would be waiting for the police.

If Zimmy no scared, Zimmy no self-defense?

See, now you're just being a moron. Zimmerman was being assaulted and had every right, even if he was the aggressor, to use deadly force to protect himself. If all you're interested in is trolling, find somebody else.

By your own admission, Zimmy left his car and "followed" Martin. You said he was just standing around for a while...that's fine. If you're scared of someone, do you just stand around? These are not the actions of a man who is scared. Martin ran away from Zimmy...this is something a scared person does, right?

I'm not trolling, I'm just trying to understand your inability to empathize. Your inability---even if you remain a Zim fan---to understand how Martin may have been defending himself.

gimmegimme:By your own admission, Zimmy left his car and "followed" Martin. You said he was just standing around for a while...that's fine. If you're scared of someone, do you just stand around? These are not the actions of a man who is scared. Martin ran away from Zimmy...this is something a scared person does, right?

So because Zimmerman wasn't too scared to leave his vehicle and follow Martin, he shouldn't have been scared while being assaulted? Is that what you're trying to say here?

gimmegimme:I'm not trolling, I'm just trying to understand your inability to empathize. Your inability---even if you remain a Zim fan---to understand how Martin may have been defending himself.

Even if he was, Zimmerman also has the right to defend himself, right? I see no evidence that Trayvon was anything other than a violent attacker. A scared kid had a lot of options, none of which Trayvon exercised.

Livingroom:gimmegimme: Popcorn Johnny: gimmegimme: Compared to a gunshot wound to the chest?

Yes.

Maybe Zimmy shouldn't have started a fight he couldn't finish...

Hey look, the people that know absolutely nothing about the case are here to make assumptions.

Friend, a random citizen took it upon himself to follow a kid around in armed pursuit in a vehicle and then on foot. The target didn't know if he was going to be raped or kidnapped or stabbed or shot in the chest from a few inches away.

But I suppose you wouldn't consider it starting a fight if someone did the same thing to you.

no, i wouldnt be wearing a goddamn hoody slinking through a rich neighbourhood at night IN THE SUMMER. that spells disaster, always has, always will.If you're black.

If you stalk someone, instigate a confrontation, and then shoot them when you start to lose the fight, you deserve to go to prison. I don't know for how long, but we all know Zimmerman wouldn't have said shiat to that kid if he wasn't packing heat.

Popcorn Johnny:gimmegimme: No, I am saying that Zimmy's "OK" does not prove anything. Why don't we stick to the facts of the case?

It does prove something, that he stopped running after the person on the other end of the phone said that he didn't need to be following. We also know that Zimmerman reported losing sight of Trayvon and that he stayed on the phone for almost two minutes after that.

How about you lay some facts out that prove that Zimmerman is guilty of murder, rather than defending himself from a violent assault? Remember, we don't need to prove that Zimmerman is innocent, we need to prove he's guilty. Now's your chance to do that.

Popcorn Johnny, an affirmative response (especially one as weak as OK) over the phone is not proof of anything. I can't see if someone complied over the phone. It certainly isn't definitive proof that he stopped following or even running after Trayvon. In fact, since Zimmerman ended up in an confrontation of some sort with Trayvon, there is an implication that he did not comply. This should be basic common sense.

You need to stop and re-evaluate your logical methods before contributing. As it is right now someone with your primitive understanding of cause and effect, and your tenuous grasp of the facts, need not comment.

Popcorn Johnny:gimmegimme: By your own admission, Zimmy left his car and "followed" Martin. You said he was just standing around for a while...that's fine. If you're scared of someone, do you just stand around? These are not the actions of a man who is scared. Martin ran away from Zimmy...this is something a scared person does, right?

So because Zimmerman wasn't too scared to leave his vehicle and follow Martin, he shouldn't have been scared while being assaulted? Is that what you're trying to say here?

gimmegimme: I'm not trolling, I'm just trying to understand your inability to empathize. Your inability---even if you remain a Zim fan---to understand how Martin may have been defending himself.

Even if he was, Zimmerman also has the right to defend himself, right? I see no evidence that Trayvon was anything other than a violent attacker. A scared kid had a lot of options, none of which Trayvon exercised.

Okay, let's try this. For the time being, forget the fatal confrontation, no matter who caused it. Just for now.

Zimmy did not go home. He left his car to figure out where Martin was and at some point stopped.

Behavior of someone who is scared? I dunno, 1-10?

Martin did not go home. He ran away, trying to elude the person who was "following him."

I don't think there is enough evidence to clearly show Zimmerman instigated the fight. All that matters is he was being attacked and defended himself.

Did he instigate it? Probably. Was he getting his butt kicked? Yes. Guns are the great equalizer, that's why they're perfect for self defense. All that will be be proven is he feared for his life and used his gun.

Less than stellar decisions were made by Zimmerman, but it's not illegal to follow someone (in this instance) and the 911 operator has no legal authority to give an order so he didn't break the law. I think he'll walk, second degree murder is a bridge too far.

Alunan:It certainly isn't definitive proof that he stopped following or even running after Trayvon.

That's just flat out ridiculous. A marathon runner wouldn't be able to carry on a phone conversation without the person on the other end of the line knowing they were running and you think it's possible for a chubby, out of shape guy to do it.

Alunan:In fact, since Zimmerman ended up in an confrontation of some sort with Trayvon, there is an implication that he did not comply.

See, this is more bullshiat speculation. All we know is that Zimmerman and Trayvon ended up meeting at some point after Zimmerman hangs up the phone and that that meeting happened very close to where Zimmerman was while on the phone.

DoomPaul:Less than stellar decisions were made by Zimmerman, but it's not illegal to follow someone (in this instance) and the 911 operator has no legal authority to give an order so he didn't break the law. I think he'll walk, second degree murder is a bridge too far.

Florida DA seem to have a real problem with trying to convict with a way too high of a charge with little to no evidence. Casey Anthony for instance. Oh she had something to do with her kid dying, no question, but she probably didn't plan it.

Livingroom:gimmegimme: Popcorn Johnny: gimmegimme: Compared to a gunshot wound to the chest?

Yes.

Maybe Zimmy shouldn't have started a fight he couldn't finish...

Hey look, the people that know absolutely nothing about the case are here to make assumptions.

Friend, a random citizen took it upon himself to follow a kid around in armed pursuit in a vehicle and then on foot. The target didn't know if he was going to be raped or kidnapped or stabbed or shot in the chest from a few inches away.

But I suppose you wouldn't consider it starting a fight if someone did the same thing to you.

no, i wouldnt be wearing a goddamn hoody slinking through a rich neighbourhood at night IN THE SUMMER. that spells disaster, always has, always will.

Electrify:Livingroom: gimmegimme: Popcorn Johnny: gimmegimme: Compared to a gunshot wound to the chest?

Yes.

Maybe Zimmy shouldn't have started a fight he couldn't finish...

Hey look, the people that know absolutely nothing about the case are here to make assumptions.

Friend, a random citizen took it upon himself to follow a kid around in armed pursuit in a vehicle and then on foot. The target didn't know if he was going to be raped or kidnapped or stabbed or shot in the chest from a few inches away.

But I suppose you wouldn't consider it starting a fight if someone did the same thing to you.

no, i wouldnt be wearing a goddamn hoody slinking through a rich neighbourhood at night IN THE SUMMER. that spells disaster, always has, always will.

Popcorn Johnny:Alunan: It certainly isn't definitive proof that he stopped following or even running after Trayvon.

That's just flat out ridiculous. A marathon runner wouldn't be able to carry on a phone conversation without the person on the other end of the line knowing they were running and you think it's possible for a chubby, out of shape guy to do it.

I would concede that point, but obviously he kept following Trayvon. Your inability to address the structural problems of your argument, and in fact exclusively concentrate on a non-critical fact, reinforces my earlier assertion that you shouldn't be part of this conversation.

You are incapable of comprehending the base logic necessary to contribute in a constructive way. At this point while you have a 1st Amendment right to free speech, you have an obligation to the community and society to refrain from exercizing it. Much in the same way someone with no medical experience shouldn't be shouting at a surgeon about the best way to make an incision.