<quoted text>Regina told me over the telephone a number of time that she knows and has changed those icons.And you know darn well I cant prove it cause your not going to admit it.Lying is a sin...I don't pray for you total destruction or annihilation.I don't pray for you at all....you think but repeat that that it would cause a reaction from me.lol Well your wrong...a lot has changed IN ME since we were once friends.I see that your still the same.It is you that harbors those negative feelings towards me..and trust me you of all people would be the last one in my fantasies...lol....

Lying is nothing new for Regina. She stated to me that she has never cussed at anyone on this forum. I produced the post and she went into hiding for a few months and now she's back. Regina is your typical catholic. Religious, goes to church, tries to be the best she can be, follows church rituals and rules but at the end of the day, she has no born again experience.....none

<quoted text>Do you presume to know what Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit can and cant do.Do you presume to know the exact guidelines and limits by which Christ will save us. Do you open and close the highways by which the Holy Spirit travels. Does your Pope? Does your Church? Christ so surpasses us and our Church's knowledge of Him that if we truly understand Who Christ is and what He did and does for us, we should become in relationship and union with Him and quit lecturing people about THEIR church.

Why so testy, Nick?? All I did was post an explanation of the teaching of the Orthodox Church. Just because you don't agree with your church doesn't mean you should mislead others with your personal opinions. Perhaps it would be best if you prefaced your remarks with a disclaimer of some sort whenever you're offering your opinion as opposed to actual Orthodox teaching.

No, this article does not go into depth on salvation outside the Orthodox Church, but that doesn't mean that I'm not fairly well acquainted with at least some of Orthodox teaching and the theology behind it. Also, a lot of what you think is in direct opposition to the Church is actually very close if not exactly the same theology. After all, we were the same church until you broke away in 1054. From what I've been reading, there's a lot of misinformation about the Church in Orthodox circles. They know very little about Catholicism, yet claim just the opposite. I don't pretend to be an expert on the Orthodox Church, but I do recognize when you state something they don't subscribe to, such as your denial of the Real Presence and that it's not the true church.

So...sorry to contradict you, but the Orthodox Church does teach that under ordinary circumstances there is no salvation outside the Orthodox Church. The way it's put is that she knows where salvation is, she does not know where it is not. She knows where the Church is, she does not know where it is not. Other Christians do not have the fullness of the truth, and may or may not find salvation apart from Orthodoxy. Sounds familiar, huh?

<quoted text>PadPeaceIf God is present through the Holy Spirit and in the Revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, then there is no reason not to have symbols upon which to reflect, and expand one's knowledge, increase one's faith and commitment to God through prayer.The question of "must have symbols", is negligible since all of Creation can be a reflection, and all its parts of the glory of God....Peace

Sorry I did not see your post sooner.You respond with respect and I appreciate that.May the Lord bless you and your family.

I see your point and I know that there is something mystical about beautiful objects and so on.We view great sculptures,and admire the sculptor who fashioned the image.The world is full of fantastic art and whatever.I do not argue that, what men do to enhance things and bring originality and whatever. The fact that the RCC has done this for centuries is so taken for granted,that it seems totally ridiculous to even bring up the use of statues and pictures in regards to Catholic life in general.

But it remains a matter of conscience as to what is understood from the 10 Commandments,and how the Lord instructed His people not to make any image of celestial beings,either above the earth,from the heavens or below the earth.Idols yes are gods and goddesses.But the making of those things and using them in worship remained a Commandment for the Jews,because the LORD abhorred all of it.He knew that people would stare at those things which were created by men,and would connect with them.

You cannot tell me that many RCs do not connect with certain statues and venerate them.I have heard all my life of people who kept a certain statue as a protective element,and loved to pray before it,as they saw the person the statue represented.That is not what God intended,as the Scriptures denounce the use of images altogether.

When I was growing up,my grandmother had some statues that were so life-like,and she would spend hours praying before them,lighting candles,saying the rosary. My grandfather use to get angry with her at times and called her st.annie,he cheated on her,she supposedly never knew it.My grandmother for years went to mass everyday.All of her sons and daughters went weekly to mass,but lived quite freely often getting drunk and committing all kinds of sin.Yes I am a sinner.But what I am saying is that my grandmother rejected reading the Scriptures only that which was mentioned in the Missal.She thought that the Bible would corrupt her.

When I became a n evangelical she was my strongest critic,and I appreciate that,but she rejected the Word so strongly because I did not venerate what she venerated,it was obvious that she held so strongly to those statues and those practices of the Roman Church,it divided us ,even though we made it a point to love each other regardless of church affiliation.

Aside from all that,I see that Christians who pray and seek the Lord,and worship Him through the Word,and without the embellishments of statuary and so on have a freedom and an insight that I rarely see in Catholics.

<quoted text>I asked for a specific statement by "God" or as you now state, the HS.Please post this passage.If you don't have one or do not know, just admit it honestly.

Come on."The Holy Spirit guided the Church in determining the canon of Scripture." is not in the Bible. What are you Bible-alone now?

Do you want me to ask God for a note in which He confesses that He guided the Church, complete with His signature, so I can bring it to you for you to examine? And so what if I did, you wouldn't believe it anyway.

Faith is a gift.

It's been said that there are 3 types of people:1) One who has sought God and has found Him2) One who is seeking Him and hasn't found Him yet3) One who doesn't seek Him at all.

New Age Spiritual Leader wrote:People chose and continue to choose on what to believe.Yes - Judaism does not believe Jesus was the "Messiah".Whether or not he was an actual "messiah" has never been determined.IMO - Jesus never actually stated he was any religion's messiah, but did state much about how the Spirit lives after we die, and his message should be accepted. Some folks took it to the extrememand consider him to be that "Messiah" that has yet to arrive for Judaism.<quoted text>Then post the proof you have to prove that, instead of something created in the past five years.A YouTube video is not proof, but only an opinion.Also, books = opinionYou aren't proving anythign JS....c'mon, stop trying to appease men.

You really want me to post an entire book on topix?

You are just playing games, is all. If you were really interested in the proof, you would have ordered the book by now.

Instead, you swipe it all away with the back of your hand and claim no proof has been offered. Very insincere.

<quoted text>Regina told me over the telephone a number of time that she knows and has changed those icons.And you know darn well I cant prove it cause your not going to admit it.Lying is a sin...I don't pray for you total destruction or annihilation.I don't pray for you at all....you think but repeat that that it would cause a reaction from me.lol Well your wrong...a lot has changed IN ME since we were once friends.I see that your still the same.It is you that harbors those negative feelings towards me..and trust me you of all people would be the last one in my fantasies...lol....

Yes, I once told you exactly what I posted here today...anyone can change them, just as we've been explaining to you. It's no big deal, not sure why you're making it one, and no idea why you insist that I'm the one who's doing it. I told you I very seldom use them anymore. If they bother you so much, maybe you shouldn't come here. Lots of people lurking on these boards, Sera. You admitted doing it for months. Now take your hate somewhere else, it's ugly and tiresome.

New Age Spiritual Leader wrote: I think you are just making up things now

June VanDerMark wrote:

<quoted text>Making things up is the basis of the religious game.

...and you are right there on top, doing just that. And you think you are an Atheist because you do?

June VanDerMark wrote:

<quoted text>If you don't like one theology you go to another, and if that doesn't prove the test of personal gain ... you make up your own theology.

Sounds like you are getting pretty good at it.

June VanDerMark wrote:

<quoted text>38,000 denominations of Christianity later ... and theologians are still busy writing and re-writing to suit their own agendas.

Imagine that, just like you.

June VanDerMark wrote:

<quoted text>The gods are learning at last to do what they are told by the theologians. It's about time too. It took those gods a long time to learn that what humans dictated the gods MUST believe ... is true.:)

How is it that you know what gods can or cannot do? Did you get some sort of "decoder ring", whereas no one else did?

<quoted text>First of all the 1727 Council of Constantinople was local- not spokesman for position of the Orthodox Church.SOMEHOW DUST STORM LEFT OUT:

LOL...IThis Orthodox Confession was drawn up in Russian by Peter Mogila, the Metropolitan of Kieff (among other theologians) and was translated into Greek. It was then approved by the following Orthodox councils and Patriarchs --

(1) the Council of Jassy in 1642

(2) the Patriarchs of Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem in 1643 (all the Eastern Sees)

(3) and the Council of Jerusalem in 1672

The Orthodox Confession of 1640 reads --

"Christ is now in heaven only and not on earth after that manner of the flesh wherein He bore it and lived in it when He was on earth; but after the sacramental manner, whereby He is present in the Holy Eucharist, the same Son of God, God and Man, is also on earth by way of TRANSUBSTANTIATION [kata metousiosis]. For the SUBSTANCE of the bread is changed into the SUBSTANCE of His holy body, and the SUBSTANCE of the wine into the SUBSTANCE of His precious blood.

"Where it is fitting to WORSHIP and ADORE the Holy Eucharist even as our Savior Jesus Himself.

"The priest must know that at the moment when he consecrates the gifts the SUBSTANCE itself of the bread and the SUBSTANCE of the wine are changed into the SUBSTANCE of the real body and blood of Christ through the operation of the Holy Ghost, whom the priest invokes at that time, consecrating this mystery by praying and saying,

'Send down Thy Holy Ghost on us and on these gifts set before Thee, and make this bread the precious body of Thy Christ and that which is in this cup the precious blood of Thy Christ, changing them by Thy Holy Ghost.'

Read slowly I know its hard for you to think. lol

"For immediately after these words the TRANSUBSTANTIATION [metousiosis] takes place, and that bread is changed into the real body of Christ, and the wine into His real blood. ONLY THE SPECIES WHICH ARE SEEN REMAIN, and this by the ordinance of God, first, that we may not see the body of Christ, but may believe that it is there....

"The honor which it is fitting to give to these awful mysteries is of such a kind as that which is given to Christ Himself....This mystery is also OFFERED AS A SACRIFICE on behalf of all orthodox Christians, both the living AND THOSE WHO SLEEP in hope of a resurrection to eternal life; and the SACRIFICE shall never fail until the last Judgment.

"The fruits of this mystery are these: first, the commemoration of the sinless passion and death of Christ....secondly....this mystery is a PROPITIATION AND ATONEMENT WITH GOD FOR OUR SINS BOTH OF THE LIVING AND OF THE DEAD....thirdly....that each Christian who shall frequent this SACRIFICE and partake of this mystery may be delivered by means of it from the temptation and danger of the devil." (Stone, page 177f)

<quoted text>You are on the wrong page...I never have questioned the teaching that God is the Holy Trinity...the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit..Which, as stated, is contradictory.....If Christ is the Son of God, and if Emmanuel means "God with us", that is saying Christ is God????!!!!!Try this: Since there is only one God....who is God in "God with us"????

<quoted text>What's first-hand about the account of Thomas??? That is simply another regurgitated myth that travelled through 2000 years plus of morphing ... that just happens to suit YOUR gnostic religious tastes for fiction.

In the least, Thomas was a first gen-Apostle, thus it can be considered a first-hand account.

Now if we were to compare that text with something by "Paul", who was a third generation disciple, you can now understand the difference between the two accounts.

<quoted text>Lying is nothing new for Regina. She stated to me that she has never cussed at anyone on this forum. I produced the post and she went into hiding for a few months and now she's back. Regina is your typical catholic. Religious, goes to church, tries to be the best she can be, follows church rituals and rules but at the end of the day, she has no born again experience.....none

Oh, Charles, stop being such a baby. I didn't cuss at anyone and you never proved I did...because I didn't. See how that works? Liar.

But I'll bet you call me or another Catholic a name any minute now. It's what you do, it's how you operate. You see, that was my original point which you so deceptively deflected by turning the attention on me and accusing me of cursing at someone. It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

Yeah, but but they arent me the great Herme the voice of the entire Orthodox church and my wife who became a schismatic 3 years ago and posts trash because she is all about forgiving and I the Great Herm am the voice of God and...

NO PROTESTANTS have any Grace and MUST be baptized thrice in a Herme approved church and those other Orthodox who disagree well pffffhhhh they are not really Orthodox. lol

What a phony loser you are. You are a joke and incapable of telling truth. You are nothing but a vile hillbilly who likes to argue from ignorance and doublespeak. I do think you are a Protestant who likes to mold Orthodoxy to your own opinions, but you are an idiot and a proeven liar not worth arguing with.

<quoted text>You should know, since you were raised Catholic, that it is not the image that is venerated, it is the person whom the image represents. This should not be a difficult thing to understand.Don't you have pictures of your loved ones in your wallet or on your walls? Do you mistake the photo for your wife? Do you mistake the photo for God? When you look at the photo of your wife are you worshipping her? When you visit your parents' graves and talk to them, are you worshipping their grave markers?

Human reasoning is fine if that is a far as you want to go Just Sayin,but the truth is I know that a statue is not a person.But Catholics form attachments to statues,especially if they pray before them,reciting rosaries and praying rote prayers before them,candles and all.Not many Catholics do such,but I have seen those that did.

As I told Human Being the whole matter of argument with a Catholic concerning the use of statues is rather redundant,because you are all so protective of them.YET,the LORD God of Israel abhorred them and despised seeing them especially amongst His people.

Idols I know are gods and goddesses,but really a statue of the Sacred Heart of Christ represents the GOD and Savior of us all Jesus Christ.You do not see anything wrong with that,but GOD commanded in the first commandment,and the 2nd NOT to made such things.READ the Ten Commandments in the King James. You have to realize that such a command is embedded in the conscience of those who believed and now believe as well.I take the Word seriously,and reject human reasoning when God says"You will not have any gods before me"And He elaborates,I find Catholic reasoning for statues to be quite unique in that it so resembles the paganism of Rome,and it rejects God's commandment to the Hebrews(Jews).

Think about this,no matter what your reasoning to have statues,God said He abhors and despises them,do not use them,or make them,or set them up in your presence.The COMMAND demands Obedience,so if we cannot obey God no matter what our reasoning,than we already are found disobedient and breaking His Law.

Adam and Eve saw that fruit,it was no doubt very sumptuious to them,they wanted it so bad,knowing God told them it was forbidden.The SERPENT reasoned with Eve,told her that the fruit was good,it would meet her desires,and it was good for her,both evil and good would be known to her as well.

Adam and Eve reasoned within themselves,and their reasoning seemed practical and wonderful,but they disobeyed the Father,He told them later.But it is no different for us,a statue in and of itself would seem so harmless,it cannot hear or speak.It is beauritful to look at,but GOD,BUT G O D, told His people never to make them.How is it okay for the followers of Jesus His Son to make millions of such things,adorn their churches with them and venerate them with great pomp,rituals,songs,canticles and so on? That escapes my reasoning as a believer."as for me and my household we will serve the Lord." I quote this to confirm that we will not have such things in our midst,nor will we worship where they are mounted on the main altars of churches.

It is a powerful thing to serve the Lord,dear ones,and often we are required not to go along with the flow,even if it seems ridiculous!

<quoted text>Yes, I once told you exactly what I posted here today...anyone can change them, just as we've been explaining to you. It's no big deal, not sure why you're making it one, and no idea why you insist that I'm the one who's doing it. I told you I very seldom use them anymore. If they bother you so much, maybe you shouldn't come here. Lots of people lurking on these boards, Sera. You admitted doing it for months. Now take your hate somewhere else, it's ugly and tiresome.

NO! You once told me that YOU knew how to change them and did so...that's my point and only that! They don't bother me your, lying bothers me more. I never admitted to LURKING here.Maybe that's what YOU have been doing these past few weeks.Stop trying to super impose you on to me.Be responsible for your own actions please..and your right about hate being ugly and tiresome. I don't hate you...

<quoted text>And you do not have priests who are only pushing the practices to appease the Church,but yet they themselves personally reject them? That minister sounds like a spineless jelly fish,and he does not represent the whole evangelical movemment. Just like those priests of modern relativity do not represent fully the RCC,being the only voice for it.YET the trouble is we all have charlatans in our churches,as Satan works overtime with his hords of demons to diminish even by one iota the truth through ministers and priests,and other religious.I believe that the LORD is working in all the Christian churches and denominations,but that He has those who are half-hearted,and end up serving TWO Masters.The Apostles warned us of false apostles,teachers and ministers.Nevertheless in spite of our differences in Christ we can be united.He alone is the Savior the one who makes all things NEW. His Spirit is able to change a human mind and heart.The fact that you may think all of what the RCC does is perfect and the basis of being the true church is your opinion,based on years of following it,and believing.But the things you so take for granted are not universal as it were with all Christians.We have every right to reject statues,the wearing of miraculous medals,scapulars,and the recitation of the Rosary.We have every right to reject the Apparitions of the RCC,and all the doctrines concerning the Blessed Mother.Because the Bible especially the New Testament does not for one verse of word support any of those things.At the same time we have been instructed by Christ to love the brethren,and sisters who are in Christ.We must love one another,for Love is the greatest PROOF of the reality of the Godhead(Trinity).To hate you as a Catholic is to lie to God,for I was called to encourage and build up the church not tear it down.Just because we do not accept your practices,it does not mean we do not accept you as a believer,and what God has done in your life for His Glory.There is much today in the way of Christians coming together,but in Christ we are one,not in affiliations,which really will be obsolete when JESUS comes again in full glory.He will rule with a rod of iron,and He will also rule in Righteousness and Truth,that is our HOPE! All these other things are mere distractions.

It is true that satan works his evil where ever he can and always tries to corrupt what is good, righteous, and true. The Catholic Church is by no means perfect in all that She does. She is only infallible in teaching matters of Faith and Morals. Certainly, like every other group of people, there are sinners of all stripes. That, if nothing else, unifies the entire world.

I am aware that not everyone believes the things the CC teaches, nor do they worship the way the CC does. You are free to not accept the Apparitions and all other private revelations. You are free to not wear the scapular, pray the rosary, fast, and give alms. You are free to refuse to venerate the saints. You are free to reject the Sacraments. You are free to reject all spiritual authority which is over you. You are certainly free to skip Church on Sunday's as well. You are free to reject any and all doctrine which has been taught and believed since the time of Christ. You are absolutely free to reject anything you choose to reject and tailor make "christianity" to suit yourself. (Just saying that is what so many people do. I'm not accusing you of these things.)

Something to think about though: Oxbox steadily claims he is Christian, yet he doesn't believe that Jesus is God the Son. So, the question is...how much "Christianity" can you throw out before you are no longer "Christian"?

When the Lamb broke the Fourth Seal, I heard the fourth living being say,“Come!” I looked up and saw a horse whose color was pale green. Its rider was named Death, and his companion was the Grave. These two were given authority over one-fourth of the earth, to kill with the sword (war) and famine and disease (plague) and wild animals.

Remember - Christ is our peace with GOD - "It is because of Him (The Father) that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us Wisdom from GOD--that is (Christ Jesus is), our righteousness, holiness and redemption."

<quoted text>Oh, Charles, stop being such a baby. I didn't cuss at anyone and you never proved I did...because I didn't. See how that works? Liar.But I'll bet you call me or another Catholic a name any minute now. It's what you do, it's how you operate. You see, that was my original point which you so deceptively deflected by turning the attention on me and accusing me of cursing at someone. It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

You're pathetic...I proved it and you know it. Lets why you've been gone for a few months. Now go to your priest and confess.

<quoted text>Yes, I once told you exactly what I posted here today...anyone can change them, just as we've been explaining to you. It's no big deal, not sure why you're making it one, and no idea why you insist that I'm the one who's doing it. I told you I very seldom use them anymore. If they bother you so much, maybe you shouldn't come here. Lots of people lurking on these boards, Sera. You admitted doing it for months. Now take your hate somewhere else, it's ugly and tiresome.

Yes it is tiresome. Regina they do not have a sincere bone in their body. They have told so many lies its dispicable. It is so obvious they are spiteful and have no forgiveness and toss truth aside just so they can be happy in fogged victory in their small minds. Pray for those who are in leadership to diligently study and strive for commonality. Obviously these two just want to babble nonsense and slander. I find them to be beyond detestable. They have the great Apostle Preston and Ox. I would love for Seres so called Catholic friend to come here and see what they are all about. Sad and pathetic.

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