Ok... I shoulda known better than to post an analogy... of course you responded to that and not the real issue, as always.

Let's make this direct as possible for the world to see :

WHY DOES THE NETWORK NOT SHUT DOWN #CC-POWER

Freedom of speech? Even freedom of speech has it's limits when it involves ILLEGAL activity that's illegal in every nation on the globe.Answer that one direct question, from the perspective of the network.

Stealing is, but the trading is a grey area, since in the end all they are trading is a bunch of numbers and names, what is illegal is making use of those numbers and names to steal. so in the end my question still stands, what makes talking about it illegal?

Ok let's see..123 replies, 7492 views over something that doesn't need more that 10 posts & some logic to be worked out

It's really funny what xplora thinks about Stealing being illegal, but "trading" isn't.. Dude, I wonder if you use that prespictive outside Undernet too, like if you think using narcotics is illegal, but exchanging & trading them isn't

For god's sake, do you really think you made any sense ??

Ah i also think your question that's still standing needs to sit down n get some modification with the "talking about it" part, coz they don't just "talk" about CC's in such channels, they exchange them n cash them out, and they get exchanged for roots and hacked boxes wich doesn't make this network any better either, actually this is making the thread's name (How can we improve undernet?) sounds really pathetic..

Bottom line is: I totally agree with SeeknDistroy about reporting the whole issue to whome it might concern =)

Ok let's see..123 replies, 7492 views over something that doesn't need more that 10 posts & some logic to be worked out

It's really funny what xplora thinks about Stealing being illegal, but "trading" isn't.. Dude, I wonder if you use that prespictive outside Undernet too, like if you think using narcotics is illegal, but exchanging & trading them isn't

again bad example narcotics are a physical item, trying to claim that trading credit card numbers is illegal is like saying this conversation is illegal, see my point now? no ok try this I'll give you this number 32457 for $5, is that illegal? now do you see the legal problems, I'm forced to ask YET again, "what makes talking about it illegal?"

SplitFire wrote:

For god's sake, do you really think you made any sense ??

Do now think you are making sense?

SplitFire wrote:

Ah i also think your question that's still standing needs to sit down n get some modification with the "talking about it" part, coz they don't just "talk" about CC's in such channels, they exchange them n cash them out, and they get exchanged for roots and hacked boxes wich doesn't make this network any better either, actually this is making the thread's name (How can we improve undernet?) sounds really pathetic..

Bottom line is: I totally agree with SeeknDistroy about reporting the whole issue to whome it might concern =)

The problem is they are trading again, numbers, and basic communication, as I pointed out before, there is nothing illegal about me trading the word apple with you for the word pear, what is illegal is what they do with what has been traded.

FYI, whom it might concern = Bank's, Credit Card suppliers, FBI, and other legal authorities, and something I have pointed out before, closing down the channel doesn't stop a thing, at most it creates a blow for freedom of speech, a blow to the law enforcement agencies that ARE monitoring the channel, and a blow for undernet's unmoderated status, trust me, Undernet does not want to lose that status, because that is the same status your local Telephone company uses to stop from being shutdown just because 2 criminals discuss illegal activities over the phone.Undernet does not have the resources to start moderating the network, if it were to start, it would become legally responsible for everything we all say, which means governments could have the network shutdown and then we all lose, this is how far down the road I am looking. Are you?

it is not a bad example, if you woke up one day finding out X,000$ have been cashed out of yer credit card, you gonna be physically/psychologically/financially affected and you'll be running around banging your head against walls, specially if your money were the last you had or were saved for something really needed & critical. You never know who the victim might be, or what circumstances he's being through, but let me assure you this; even Bill Gates would be enraged and frustrated if some jerk on IRC cracked into his CC to cash out a penny

About the 'freedom of speech'; this ain't no freedom of speech dude, coz freedom of speech has got limits, otherwise it'd turn into riot. If your prespictive of 'freedom of speech' was everyone else's, people would have been trading and exchanging national security secrets freely, cussin' at each other on streets and/or national television freely, abusing every single equipment of communications freely, all under the Freedom of speech title.

If you think this whole thing is legal, well that's your own point of view, and it doesn't necessarily have to be true, however, if you want a solid proof about it's being illegal, why don't you walk over to the nearest bank or FBI office, tell them you're running an IRC channel for exchanging & trading CC's/roots/hacked hosts and see what happens ?

it is not a bad example, if you woke up one day finding out X,000$ have been cashed out of yer credit card, you gonna be physically/psychologically/financially affected and you'll be running around banging your head against walls, specially if your money were the last you had or were saved for something really needed & critical. You never know who the victim might be, or what circumstances he's being through, but let me assure you this; even Bill Gates would be enraged and frustrated if some jerk on IRC cracked into his CC to cash out a penny

Problem here is the event that resulted in the missing money did not happen on the channel, yet again a bad example, the event happened when the information was used fraudulently either before or after the "trade" that may or may not have happened on the channel.

SplitFire wrote:

About the 'freedom of speech'; this ain't no freedom of speech dude, coz freedom of speech has got limits, otherwise it'd turn into riot. If your prespictive of 'freedom of speech' was everyone else's, people would have been trading and exchanging national security secrets freely, cussin' at each other on streets and/or national television freely, abusing every single equipment of communications freely, all under the Freedom of speech title.

If you think this whole thing is legal, well that's your own point of view, and it doesn't necessarily have to be true, however, if you want a solid proof about it's being illegal, why don't you walk over to the nearest bank or FBI office, tell them you're running an IRC channel for exchanging & trading CC's/roots/hacked hosts and see what happens ?

Microsoft has cleaned over 9 MILLION IRC-based bots off their customer's computers since 2005.Now go check the stats for all the anti-virus companies and add them up.Come on ppl this crap is serious.

Xplora - The trading of certain information in any form is illegal. The transfer or sale of things such as CC lists is illegal in almost every country on the globe. Not just the use of such list, the transfer or sale of it! I used to work at hotels where I had access to millions of CC numbers in a list... the criminal charges for selling or trading such a list are HUGE.

Just this year MS alone has removed over 1.4 million IRC-controlled bots from their customer's PC's. The number are probably in the tens of millions when you add all the a/v companies together.

This network makes it WAY too easy for *anyone* including children (and often is) to find and learn illegal things.

Here's a list of what those IRC-based robots are doing to ppls computers (from link I posted at top of post) :

* Saved passwords may be stolen * Keystrokes may be recorded * Credit card data may be stolen * Software licenses and serial numbers may be stolen and pirated * Identity may be stolen * Email accounts may be compromised * Spam messages may be transmitted * Denial of service attacks may be initiated against other servers on the internet * Pirated software, music, and pornography may be hosted and distributed

They are using YOUR network as their control network many times.If they aren't controlling them here, they almost surely learned to do it here.The worst part about all this is allowing so many people to be easily introduced to it all.Many even think it's OK since the network doesn't seem to care, right?

SplitFire

Post subject: Re: Undernet Drones

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 10:35 am

Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2008 7:34 amPosts: 5Location: NeverLands

xplora wrote:

Problem here is the event that resulted in the missing money did not happen on the channel, yet again a bad example, the event happened when the information was used fraudulently either before or after the "trade" that may or may not have happened on the channel.

You do know yer talking absolute NONSENSE and you really gotta stop with being sophisticated. See, when you find a dead corpse - covered in blood - with a smashed skull, and a sledgehammer few feet away, you'd only assume the victim chocked on popcorn if yer a mental retard with an IQ below 60No matter what happened where, all the damages are/were originated from the so-called trade that took place on Undernet.It's as simple as this: You'd be charged with hiding/supporting a felony convict in your place if you let him use your backyard, wich makes Undernet guilty as charged for hosting channels likr CC-power and keeping them open and active

SeeknDestroy wrote:

If they aren't controlling them here, they almost surely learned to do it here.

Problem here is the event that resulted in the missing money did not happen on the channel, yet again a bad example, the event happened when the information was used fraudulently either before or after the "trade" that may or may not have happened on the channel.

You do know yer talking absolute NONSENSE and you really gotta stop with being sophisticated. See, when you find a dead corpse - covered in blood - with a smashed skull, and a sledgehammer few feet away, you'd only assume the victim chocked on popcorn if yer a mental retard with an IQ below 60No matter what happened where, all the damages are/were originated from the so-called trade that took place on Undernet.It's as simple as this: You'd be charged with hiding/supporting a felony convict in your place if you let him use your backyard, wich makes Undernet guilty as charged for hosting channels likr CC-power and keeping them open and active

SeeknDestroy wrote:

If they aren't controlling them here, they almost surely learned to do it here.

They call it logic, xplora

Ok so you are obviously in favour of shutting down all forms of communication on the planet, because based on your logic, undernet, all other chat networks (not just irc, but MSN, ICQ, etc), all mail servers, all telephone companies should in fact moderate everything that is communicated on their systems, this would be quite a feat, for any of those services, most would shutdown before even bothering to try, others would try and fail and get shutdown for failing to do it properly, shoot while you are at it, why not anyone that provides any form of communication, there goes the isp's, all forms of radio, hang Television and wow, wouldn't you know, printed media too...

You are the one talking nonsense, since quite obviously the damages did not start on undernet, they started with the felon that collected the data in the first place, try thinking before you type, logic is the basis of everything I've said so far, where is you logic?

Something worth repeating, Undernet has been specifically ASKED by legal authorities to leave such channels alone, undernet does not provide support for those channel in any way whatsoever, such channel(s) merely exist, they do not have X, they get no support from C, none from irc op's either, they are left like this for the legal authorities to track abusers, and actually attempt to arrest the traders, thieves, collectors. Undernet chooses not to obstruct justice, which if you check you will find is also against the law.

Huh... if those channels are not involved in any illegal thing , why those channels are not helped by #zT , #nastrand , #reop , why those channels are locked by #cservice (Locked = NOREGISTER) ? Why ? Why do you protect them ? Those channels should be locked ! Those channels creates a bad image to the network , "THOSE CHANNELS" , i found a simple answer .. nobody cares! But we do , we are users of this network , we kinda love it so you guys should clear the network of 1. hackers , 2. drones , 3. bots , 4. "illegal" channels 5. Some staff guys that doesn't care about undernet.

Best regards , `Dan

_________________#Nastrand and #Class member.

SeeknDestroy

Post subject: Re: Undernet Drones

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 3:29 pm

Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2006 7:02 amPosts: 42

I'm pretty sure I already posted this, but what the heck, let's do it again.

E-Mail servers DO filter out viruses and spam to protect their users. If they didn't, your inbox would be 99% spam. E-mail may not monitor illegal trading of CC lists, but they definitely filter out "known" viruses and spams, just as this IRC network should.

Forums and Message Boards... when administrators receive complaints of abuse and illegal activity, they act upon them, removing and blocking threads, and taking necessary actions based on the type of activity.

Stop acting like no other place on the planet filters out drones, spam, and illegal activity. It takes place on almost every communication form on the internet in some way or another. You don't exactly see advertisements on TV for cashing out your list of stolen CC numbers either do ya? Oh yeah, I guess they monitor and control that too, don't they, to some extent? Same with the radio... that's all your excuses right out the door.

When it comes to IRC, I offer DalNet (altho you may not like the network, respect it for what it is and what they did) as a prime example. They used to be just like Undernet, overrun with abusers and illegal activity. One day they decided enough is enough, and created the tools necessary to clean the network. When they did actually clean it, all those groups they harbored DDOS'd the hell out of them for doing so... but to this day, they're still in the top10 list, and they're still there.

Undernet gives up before it even tries. Makes excuses for things they simply don't want to try. Excuses, excuses, excuses (I said that before too).

xpl0ziv

Post subject: Re: Undernet Drones

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 9:11 pm

Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 3:21 pmPosts: 6Location: Galati / Romania

I dont agreed with anyone of you folks , not with xplora not with `Dan or anyone als that posted something on this topic and i franctly dont understand why do you bother sow much to change something that wont be changed .I belive that the real reason why channels like cc-power are not closed is because its alot more easy to supervise the tief then to hunt it and i think now you will see why #cc-power is not closed or any other channel like it . Sow stop blaiming the admins/ircops/helpers for not doing what they are here to do and try to think before you say/do something.

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