astro_zombie wrote:i disagree... to me you are saying "this is the belt for the guys in PWG that arent as good as Super Dragon or Kevin Steen"

That's exactly what it'd say. And that's a good thing.

Wrestling companies always have guys who aren't booked as top-level guys. Scorpio Sky, T.J. Perkins and Disco, for example, have been regulars since the beginning of the company and have never received title shots. That's fine. There's only so many top spots, so the rest of the guys have to be given something else to do. A LHW belt would help with that.

Honestly, do you feel that the Intercontinental has been a negative for the WWF? Was the TV title a negative for ECW? Was the Cruiserweight Title a negative for WCW? Has the IWGP Jr. Heavyweight Title been a huge waste of time all these years? Companies have secondary belts. IWA-MS does. CZW does. ROH does, albeit a kind of stupid one. Rev Pro did.

People have a knee-jerk reaction to the idea of there being "too many belts" in a wrestling company. It's really only relevant to two companies at two different times: mid-to-late-'90s WCW, with its World/US/TV/Cruiser/Tag/Women's/Hardcore flood of belts, and Invasion-era WWF, with the mess of WWF and WCW belts all over the place. Those were bad things. There *is* such a thing as too many belts.

But you can't find a single example in wrestling history of a company that was hurt by having a *secondary* singles belt. It's only a positive. And considering PWG's wealth of entertaining, skinny non-top guys, it's a perfect company for a light heavyweight belt.

ok, i guess what i should have asked was, "Should PWG have some sort of mid card singles title?" Since the weight divisions was obviously a bad idea. But what kind of title would that be? I do believe there should be one so like onlxn said, wrestlers on the under card actually have something to do.

See... I dunno. Here's the problem with a secondary title with all the same rules.

Historically, feds have used secondary titles largely because their world champ didn't defend the belt at every show. World title matches were a big deal, and didn't happen all that often... so there'd be a worker belt, an IC/US/TV belt, that got defended more often. You had the exalted, hard-to-get-a-match-against world champ and the hard-working, down-in-the-trenches secondary champ.

PWG can't do that, because the PWG champ defends the belt at every show. It doesn't make sense to have two belts that are open to everybody that get defended equally often. You'd have a PWG IC title defense early then a PWG Title defense later on the same show... you'd start wondering, "Well, what the hell? These two guys are here every show. Why don't they just unify the stupid belts?" It would just devalue the PWG Title.

Look at ROH. They've often tried to present their Pure Title as equally important as their World Title. That was really stupid. It just muddied their whole title picture and made Aries's reign look inferior to Joe's Pure reign. Now they've slapped the belt on Nigel and he's having silly fun with it in the midcard. Guys decide whether they want to go for the Pure Title or the World Title, and it's all very arbitrary as to who considers which belt more important. It's really been a mixed bag for the company, and if they could do it over again, I'm pretty sure they'd have gone in a different direction with their secondary title.

TNA's having a similar problem. Joe's X-Division reign has been awesome, but it only highlights how superfluous Jarrett's title has become. The lack of X-Division weight limits has really forced them into a corner, and they're going to have to unify those belts soon.

Conversely, IWA-MS has a Jr. Heavyweight Title that really adds a great extra element to their shows. Rev Pro had that. People talk about it somehow hurting the lighter workers, but other than maybe in New Japan, I really can't see any evidence of that. Bad booking hurts lighter workers. A separate division helps lighter workers, because it showcases and highlights them. The problem with TAKA's WWF run wasn't that he was light heavyweight champ -- it was that they had Jarrett squash him while he had the belt. You need to protect your secondary champ, but the PWG brass know how to do that.

With a truly restricted secondary title, you have a storyline reason why this second belt has to exist. It's for the guys who are smaller, younger, less experienced, whatever, so it's clear that the PWG Title is still the ultimate prize. That doesn't mean that smaller/younger/whatever guys can't challenge for the PWG Title. But it means that the midcard guys have their own title to fight over, and the Joes and Dragons aren't going to come in and mess up all the fun. You'd get why this belt was in the midcard. If there are no restrictions whatsoever, and it's defended at every show, then it's really just the same as the PWG Title, and that just hurts the aura of that belt.

I'm not exactly sure why people would have a problem with the weight limit thing. The only midcard guy it'd affect would be Ronin, and really size is the primary difference between the mid-carders and the top-carders. But other restrictions would work too. Guys who are under 25. Guys who've been in the business less than four years. Guys who live in California. I've actually always thought it'd be kind of awesome for PWG to revive the Rev Pro Jr. Heavyweight title. That's a belt with some So-Cal history in it, and it'd mean they wouldn't have to pay for a new belt to be made. But *some* restriction would help.

onlxn wrote: I've actually always thought it'd be kind of awesome for PWG to revive the Rev Pro Jr. Heavyweight title. That's a belt with some So-Cal history in it, and it'd mean they wouldn't have to pay for a new belt to be made. But *some* restriction would help.

This mid-carder belt doesn't necessarily have to be a singles title. Since 6 man tags have a strong presence in PWG, why not make a 3-man tag team title? This way 3 mid-carders can experience the spotlight at the same time. These titles won't overshadow the heavyweight title and it allows possibilities for innovative spots, like the 6 man suplex/powerbomb/neckbreaker moves you'd see during TNA battle royals.

Ole, Ole Ole Ole! wrote:This mid-carder belt doesn't necessarily have to be a singles title. Since 6 man tags have a strong presence in PWG, why not make a 3-man tag team title? This way 3 mid-carders can experience the spotlight at the same time. These titles won't overshadow the heavyweight title and it allows possibilities for innovative spots, like the 6 man suplex/powerbomb/neckbreaker moves you'd see during TNA battle royals.

its not a terrible idea... but i think it has the potential to get old real quickly... but if they could find a way to make that and the regular tag titles work, without taking away from the rest of the card id say give it a go

it allows possibilities for innovative spots, like the 6 man suplex/powerbomb/neckbreaker moves you'd see during TNA battle royals.

Yeah, because TNA guys came up with those spots first.

While onlxn brings up good points about titles, I really don't think a new title is needed. Right now, PWG doesn't have the kind of roster that is steady(as in available for every show) like ROH does. Plus the current belts always seem to change up once in awhile and there isn't a set that hasn't been changed, so PWG should make getting a solid set of belts(thanks Joe Price, you asshole!) they could use for long term use before getting new ones. If PWG did get a new title, a lightheavyweight belt wouldn't work because nearly everyone on the roster would be able to challenge for it, and it wouldn't be special. A SoCal title would be nice if it was only open to guys from the area. Either way, I like the current system with all the singles workers working their way up the ranks to get to the PWG Championship.

SoCalAndy wrote: I like the current system with all the singles workers working their way up the ranks to get to the PWG Championship.

same here... i think the way its set up makes it so anyone can really have a shot at getting the PWG title... it puts more emphasis on the importance of the belt... something that many companies lack nowadays (cmon, wwF has TWO championship belts, TWO tag title belts... makes each belt worth less[worthless?])

SoCalAndy wrote:Right now, PWG doesn't have the kind of roster that is steady(as in available for every show) like ROH does.

This is true... but there are a bunch of reliable local midcard guys. A Scott Lost or a T.J. Perkins holding a midcard belt would stabilize the company's direction, if anything.

If PWG did get a new title, a lightheavyweight belt wouldn't work because nearly everyone on the roster would be able to challenge for it, and it wouldn't be special.

See, I just don't think that major fed weight limits have anything to do with anything. The only true non-juniors who have held the PWG Title are Pearce and Steen; SD, AJ, Joey and even Frankie are juniors, through and through. That hasn't affected the PWG belt as a *heavyweight attraction* at all. Weight doesn't matter; booking does.

WCW and WWF's junior weight limits being around 220 has got nothin' to do with nothin'. If you set a PWG junior belt weight limit at 180 pounds, a lot of guys could go for it (T.J., Scorp, Tornado, Quick, Topgun, Excalibur) and a lot of guys couldn't (Ronin, Disco, Sabin, B-Boy, any of the top-carders). If the midcard guys had a belt to fight over, with feuds and build-up and mic time, no fans would be complaining about weight.

Either way, I like the current system with all the singles workers working their way up the ranks to get to the PWG Championship.

Fair enough. But the problem with that is, as with every wrestling company, most guys *aren't* going to work their way up the ranks. Scorpio, Excalibur, T.J., Disco, Talwar and Scott Lost are all long-time PWG mainstays who've never gotten a shot at the PWG Title... Quicksilver, Tornado and Generico have each gotten one token shot. That's a lot of guys who've failed to work their way up the ranks. It's not because they aren't entertaining -- it's because you can only have so many topcarders.

So you then have two options: you can keep the midcarders without a belt, saying that their goal is a main-event belt they'll never even get a shot at... or you can give them something to wrestle for. You make it so just about every wrestler in the company has a belt that he's plausibly in contention for. Just like that, the middle of your shows are more interesting, and you have a new tool to push people with.

I think the current shittiness of the WWE is making us forget what a great thing secondary titles have been to companies over the years. As wrestling fans, I don't think any of us regret that Shawn and Razor fought for a "midcard belt" instead of angling to fight Yoko. The Malenko/Guerrero classics for the ECW TV belt wouldn't have been quite as fun if they were just vying for shots at the Sandman. It's not a burial of midcard guys -- done properly, a secondary belt *elevates* midcard guys.

jamianity wrote:Almost every fucking wrestler is below 200lbs so why bother having a junior heavyweight division.

Did you actually read the post above yours? He said set it at 180lbs so not everyone could go for it.

There would still not be enough difference to warrant a new title. Most wrestlers are around the 180lbs mark or under so what would be the gain. I'd say my point still stands. You may aswell just call it the title Super Dragon, Joe, AJ, Daniels and Sabin can not hold.

I'm all for a secondary belt, because I think it would be a great elevation tool- a guy like Scott Lost could really benefit from a strong singles run in that type of situation- but I don't really care for the weight restriction idea, since as stated most of the guys are around the same size.

I'd rather PWG give a new belt some goofy name (or go even further and give somebody a giant spiked bat like HUSTLE did) to further PWG's offbeat image.

This is true... but there are a bunch of reliable local midcard guys. A Scott Lost or a T.J. Perkins holding a midcard belt would stabilize the company's direction, if anything.

That is true, a midcard belt can help a guy like Scott Lost a lot. The points about weight I'm trying to make is that things are a little to cliche and weight limits are pretty lame as they limit the chances of talented workers to gain something because of their size, but a midcard belt can do some good. You're spot on about giving the midcarders something to work for, and I'm just going to have to agree to disagree since we both have different views about the subject. And the Michaels/Hall Makenko/Guerrero examples where good points you brought up. I'm not opposed to a midcard title, just a weight class title. I also think there are more important things PWG needs to focus on rather than getting a new belt.

One point I kinda have to steer away from the belt conversation though. The booking does make/break people, you're right about that, but I don't think the booking would effect the live crowds reactions to things. Lately the crowds at shows seem to care less about storylines and the way wrestlers are being booked and just want to see guys do jaw dropping spots or big names or trash talking about other fans who come dressed up in WWE gear. Booking seems important to ROH crowds and some long time SoCal smarks, but now it just seems less important to the new crop of fans.

SuplexMonthlyJay wrote:I'm all for a secondary belt, because I think it would be a great elevation tool- a guy like Scott Lost could really benefit from a strong singles run in that type of situation- but I don't really care for the weight restriction idea, since as stated most of the guys are around the same size.

agreed.

jamianity wrote:There would still not be enough difference to warrant a new title. Most wrestlers are around the 180lbs mark or under so what would be the gain. I'd say my point still stands. You may aswell just call it the title Super Dragon, Joe, AJ, Daniels and Sabin can not hold.

I'm not going to get into the middle of the belt talk as I have no real opinion on the matter, but it's funny that the choice with the most votes is the one calling the kid who made this a retard. Classic.

Just like that, the middle of your shows are more interesting, and you have a new tool to push people with.

I disagree with this. As mentioned above, fans lately don't seem to care about smart booking and logic anymore. Case in point, the Cape Fear vs. Dark and Lovely tag match. It was a fine match, but when they tried to play off the story people seemed to take it more as comedy instead of seeing what the booking was ment to be going for. When the guys started to bust out the highspots the fans seemed to care more. A creation of secondary title would probably apeal more to the smarter fans(like you, me and other people on the boards) and see things for the way they are made to be. However, the live fans would probably just not care much for it after awhile once the first champion has been crowded after a tournament.

Even if there was a new belt created, I'd like to see it be unique like the ROH Pure Title instead of another weight limit belt. A unique spin to the new belt could do wonders if given to the right worker.