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Re: An open honest discusion about the Pacers....

I think this thread is a good idea, but perhaps 2-3 weeks premature. Does the "patience will right the ship" choice mean that we should "T.O." Artest and get nothing for him? Does the "one good trade" option include the Artest trade or not? I apologize if I too dense to realize that this was explained.

On to my thoughts of the team:

Globally:

Every great team at it's core needs 3 players of "impact" and at least 4 other players that know exactly what their job is and know how to do the job without fail. The (minimum) 3 central players are like a tripod. It's stable and strong. Take one leg away, and it doesn't stand up.

The team was rotten at the center the day we traded for Ron Artest. That's hindsight talking. In 02-03 I thought he was a knucklehead. In 03-04 I came around to like him until the post season stories came out. Then it all went to hell and we've suffered a year and a half without the proper foundation on our house.

On the dark side:

Jermaine Oneal cannot be our only star. Not even Shaq, Garnett or Duncan can pull that off, let alone JO. We need a major complimentary star, and we need one badly. It disappointed me to read today that Donnie does not want to do a mega-trade that includes 3-4 Pacers. That told me that he isn't going to bring in a talent the likes of which we need.

On the bright side:

I still think this is a 50 win team. The majority of NBA fans out there are fans of teams that will not reach that mark. For that reason, we are very lucky.

What I would do:

I would trade for a mid-carreer star, preferably a 2-guard, but I'll take a point guard also. Pick one, but it has to be a name. I would pay any price but Granger, Harrison, JO and Sarunas. I would also trade for a very high draft pick. That's right - two major trades.

Those four men listed above should be starting (or at least they should be getting HEAVY minutes) along with our new star shooting guard. Croshere coming off the bench with 20-24 minutes at PF is not a bad idea. I think that this can all happen without dropping below 45 games won. Those guys could clobber the weaker teams and steal wins from upper-level teams.

Then, over the summer, I would trade Jermaine O'Neal while he's still young, healthy and desirable and really start over. He's one more shoulder dislocation from becoming the next Alan Houston with that contract, and I fear our future with him more than I fear our future without him.

“Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” - Winston Churchill

“If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning.” - Catherine Aird

Re: An open honest discusion about the Pacers....

Sorry I'm not UB, but my thoughts, speaking purely from an offensive perspective...

I think to spread the defense you need the threat of scoring in the low post by ideally two guys and also two perimeter threats IMO, with one or two of them being able to get dribble penetration.

Most teams don't have a small forward who can seal off defenders and demand a double team in the post. The Pacers did. Because of this, in the we didn't miss the fact that Foster brings no offense. The fact that his opponent always left him to double on Ron or Jermaine made him an effective offensive rebounder (not blocked out). He could set picks, just react to the ball, and be somewhat effective without ever having a semblance of an offensive move.

Now only Jermaine has any desire or ability to post up anybody at all. I have a pipe dream that DH might someday be the second post-up threat, but that seems mighty iffy.

This is right on the money, and I will add one more think to what Tom and Buck have said abou this. Artest could usually guard the pf or center for the opponents for a possession here or there. As the defense had to rotate he gave us one more player that could body up with the power players on other teams. Obviously, this doesn't make Foster a better defender one on one, but it does limit the options the other team has for creating mismatches in their offense.

Re: An open honest discusion about the Pacers....

Hicks your post makes a lot of very good points, but I dont agree that Rick is holding DG back. He has played him at crunch time at on the road in two recent games. At NY and at Cleveland. Why doesn't he just start DG. Let's see what happens Friday night, I expect a change in the lineup and I'll be interested to see what changes are made.

I hope you're right that we do see a lineup change Friday, but I'm not holding my breath. I'll just be happy if we've gotten our new player(s) by then.

It's not that I feel he's holding DG back this second so much as I feel this is as far as Rick will go with Danny, and soon that won't be enough. I'm not happy with the idea that for the rest of this season he'll play 80% of his minutes at PF, and off the bench. Yes he can play there, but he'll be at his absolute best as a SF nightmare for everyone else, and he can play there just as well, but with more going in his favor. And I think for us to get the most out of him as quickly as possible, he needs the majority of his minutes at 3, and since we are not playing for a championship I'd rather he play those minutes against starters to up the learning curve I feel he's intelligent and mature enough to handle. Sure, he'll struggle, but he'll adjust as well as any high-prospect rookie has.

Re: An open honest discusion about the Pacers....

Impact rookies - young players who will make an impact - make an impact right away - a consistent impact. Even DD had 10 plus rebounds a game his rookie year. Our rookies are just not that good.

Woah, woah, woah. You think Danny Granger is "just not that good"? What games have you been watching? He's at least as good as any rookie we've had in a decade. If you gave him starters minutes he'd probably contend with JO being the leading rebounder. He already can guard just about anybody thrown at him, and he's finding the shooting touch he had in college (44% from 3 his senior year). Combine that with his high basketball IQ, and already decent passing, and this kid has the goods.

Re: An open honest discusion about the Pacers....

Woah, woah, woah. You think Danny Granger is "just not that good"? What games have you been watching? He's at least as good as any rookie we've had in a decade. If you gave him starters minutes he'd probably contend with JO being the leading rebounder. He already can guard just about anybody thrown at him, and he's finding the shooting touch he had in college (44% from 3 his senior year). Combine that with his high basketball IQ, and already decent passing, and this kid has the goods.

Maybe my malaise with this team has tainted my view - I will take a step back from that comment - for now.

BUT saying he is our best rookie in a decade is not really saying that much

Re: An open honest discusion about the Pacers....

I really am starting to doubt whether Rick's the right coach. He is an AMAZING coach but our team has so much potential that he doesn't utilize. Jack gets a lot of heat on this board but I don't think he's a bad player. I think he's forcing a lot of things because when Rick doesn't call plays for him he just gets frustrated. Yes, you can blame that on Jack as a player but Jack has the potential to be a good 16-20ppg scorer with good shooting if we cater to his needs because he is not a lazy player or a bad defender. Just bad habits he's picked up from I don't know where.

Foster. I am sick and tired of Foster being criticized. The guy even said he was going to struggle but he'd come back early because the team was struggling. This is our starting center. He'll get back in playing shape soon enough and when he does that bandwagon will be full soon enough. Isn't this the same guy who outplayed defensive player of the year and all-star Ben Wallace while being the key in our two victories in a series where I seriously thought we'd be swept? Yes it is. Be patient. Please.

Carlisle got it right with Prince. He brought him in towards the end of the rookie season where he then became a key player in the playoffs but I have to agree, he only delayed his development. Granger needs minutes. And I don't understand why he won't get them. He rebounds, hustles, at least tries hard. Also, did those two clutch free throws at the end of the cavs game impress anyone else? BTW, his defense on LeBron wasn't bad either and Rick rewarded him by giving him 12 minutes at SA because he had a bad outing at Dallas?

Anthony Johnson? Oh boy. Saras at SG? J.O. at C? Too easy. I will say one thing though. I used to think that he was being overly harsh with Harrison...but Harrison just isn't ready yet. Not a huge surprise tho. He's a big guy. They take a while and this is only his second year. Again, not worried about him.

Tinsley is being misused. I hate seeing alone on the fast break. We have the potential to run with him but we don't. Rick puts small ball lineups out there and doesn't utilize them! Granger, Jack, and Freddie can run VERY well with JT and J.O. isn't exactly slow; he's usually much faster than the other team's center. But now, we have to play-call.

I used to be of the opinion to not change the style if it's working but I think it's starting to really **** the players off. Jack shows it in his style of play. Ron showed via trade demand. Freddie shows it by being confused. Saras shows it by chucking up the ball when he shouldn't. I'm not saying we should coddle the players but we should play to their strengths, not the coach's because he don't just have a decent team...we have a good team.

Re: An open honest discusion about the Pacers....

Lots of good things posted on this thread.

A brief summary for me is as follows:

We were a darn good basketball team at the beginning of the year last year. We were playing at a high level and it looked like this team had improved enough to start turning some heads. I mean we were playing the defending world champions and kicking their butt when the Brawl happened. Yes, I know it was only on game, but that illustrates the level we started off 2004 with.

The only conclusion I have been able to come up with, as to why this team is so much worse than last year's team, is that Reggie Miller meant alot more to this team then most thought he did (including me.) All we heard about was how he should come off the bench, retire already, etc. However, we were a much better basketball team with him then without him. Why you ask? I really don't know, but we were. Since Reggie was injured before the brawl when we were playing well, I have to think his lockerroom presence was as key as anything.

Some may argue it was losing Brown to Cleveland or that we would have regressed last year, but I'm sticking with the Reggie argument.

So, that is why I personally have not been ready to blow up this team. I don't think we were collectively this bad until now. Did we have flaws? Yes. Was I worried that Ron could blow a gasket again? Yes. But, I thought it was a good enough team, and they were playing well, so why not give it a shot?

When a team is playing this much out of synch, either the players or the coaches need to change. I put Rick in the top 5 of coaches in the league, so now you have to look at players. In my wish list of people to go in order:

1. Artest.
2. Jax
3. Tinsley

I still think everybody else has some value. Lose your 3 most emotional Thunderbolts and move on. I don't know if you call that drastic or moderate, but that is where I would start. Croshere and Austin each bring some value to the table. Sure, they have their limitations, but they will play team ball.

You keep JO and build the nucleus around him. You could trade JO for a superstar, but I wouldn't do it. I have given JO some grief before, but he has impressed me more and more each year. He's a very good player, but he needs some help.

What we need in order of what I consider to be our top priority:

1. A post presence. Strong rebounder/defender.
2. A shooting guard who can shoot.
3. A good perimeter defender, particularly if we lose JAX.
4. A PG with a handle.

Everybody feels like Saras should be our PG, and I like that most of the time. However, neither AJ or Saras has the dribbling skills of JT. If we lose JT, and don't improve our backcourt, we will lose to teams who athletically press us like Boston did in the playoffs.

Rome wasn't built in a day, so we don't have to do it all at once. But, some definite changes need to happen.

Re: An open honest discusion about the Pacers....

Please understand that right up front I know I have no credibiltiy in this & it is akin to U.B. asking for us to take back Artest, but I have to wonder.

In hindsight now,does anybody wish we would have gone ahead & swallowed Dale Davis's salary for the next couple of years?

I can't help but think that his veteran leadership (respected in last years locker room by all accounts) & even some of his on court play would be of immense value to our team now.

Remember at the time the signing occured I made a post saying I totally understood why it happened & that I didn't blame anybody. Well I still don't & I still undertand why the Pacers chose to go that way.

But now I truely think it was a mistake.

Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

Re: An open honest discusion about the Pacers....

Please understand that right up front I know I have no credibiltiy in this & it is akin to U.B. asking for us to take back Artest, but I have to wonder.

In hindsight now,does anybody wish we would have gone ahead & swallowed Dale Davis's salary for the next couple of years?

I can't help but think that his veteran leadership (respected in last years locker room by all accounts) & even some of his on court play would be of immense value to our team now.

Remember at the time the signing occured I made a post saying I totally understood why it happened & that I didn't blame anybody. Well I still don't & I still undertand why the Pacers chose to go that way.

But now I truely think it was a mistake.

I think when Regie left Dale was going to leave no matter what the Pacers offered.

Re: An open honest discusion about the Pacers....

Please understand that right up front I know I have no credibiltiy in this & it is akin to U.B. asking for us to take back Artest, but I have to wonder.

In hindsight now,does anybody wish we would have gone ahead & swallowed Dale Davis's salary for the next couple of years?

I can't help but think that his veteran leadership (respected in last years locker room by all accounts) & even some of his on court play would be of immense value to our team now.

Remember at the time the signing occured I made a post saying I totally understood why it happened & that I didn't blame anybody. Well I still don't & I still undertand why the Pacers chose to go that way.

But now I truely think it was a mistake.

It's easy to say that he left for the money. But my gut tells me that it was more than that. I think he just didn't want to be here.

I also think that Reggie didn't want to be here either. I think they both are breathing a sigh of relief as they watch our season unfold.

so to answer your question: he's the KIND of player we really could use, but he himself would not have wanted to be here, and therefore he wouldn't be that big of a presence behind the scenes and perhaps not even on the court as well.

“Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” - Winston Churchill

“If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning.” - Catherine Aird

Re: An open honest discusion about the Pacers....

Even if Dale played zero minutes (like he is in Detroit) I would have favored signing him for his leadership - but not at the expense of Saras - that would have been as stupid as trading away an all-star center to reward a 37 year old shooting guard who had stopped shooting with too rich of a contract

Re: An open honest discusion about the Pacers....

What we have here is the fact that we are without one of our two premier players. Two all stars were here, now we have but one- that's the difference between a really good team and a so-so team. Take Shaq or Wade away from the Heat and the same would happen over the long haul (although our stable of unstables make the situation somewhat more combustable!)

Every weakness has been exposed. Without getting a star in return (doubtful) we will be forced to watch this train wreck / circus. It kind of makes me sick. I still think Dan will be a great one, but he isn't even allowed to start. I think Rick is afraid of a pouting Jax, just as he's afraid of a pouting Tinsley behind Cabbage.

Re: An open honest discusion about the Pacers....

b.

Pacertom hit on the fact that a spread offense allows a weaker center to do more than he might if the defense is able to collapse or even concentrate on him (heck, look at what bad perimeter shooting is allowing teams to do to JO, who is at least a decent center).

As for the rest, well, I just don't have time for the arguments about who should have known that Freddie's work last year was a fluke or that Jax was really not a 2 guard even though he played one pretty well in Atlanta. I don't have time to discuss whether Rick is using Saras wrongly or AJ too much or dissing David "Mr. Brick Hands" Harrison.

The fact of the matter, as stated often by Unclebuck, is that the team was built around JO and Ron, and with Ron out there will be a long period of adjustment that really can't take place until we know what the final pieces are.

As I've said in other threads, we need a consistent outside shooter in the starting lineup. I wouldn't mind seeing a true Center but the fact of the matter is one is simply not available that gives us much more than what we have now - I'm not willing to take back another injuryfest or stiff just so we can say we got a center, nor am I willing to trade Ron to an Eastern Conference contender because he is perfectly capable of straightening out for the rest of the season (for someone else).

I don't want to see Rick suddenly give the players their way on offense, because we'd shoot even worse than we are now and play no defense at all (anyone want to see us getting beat by 40 points while shooting 20%?)

BillS

"Every time I pitched it was like throwing gasoline on a fire. Pkkw! Pkkw! Pkkw! Pkkw!"
- Ebby Calvin "Nuke" LaLoosh

Re: An open honest discusion about the Pacers....

Please understand that right up front I know I have no credibiltiy in this & it is akin to U.B. asking for us to take back Artest, but I have to wonder.

In hindsight now,does anybody wish we would have gone ahead & swallowed Dale Davis's salary for the next couple of years?

I can't help but think that his veteran leadership (respected in last years locker room by all accounts) & even some of his on court play would be of immense value to our team now.

Remember at the time the signing occured I made a post saying I totally understood why it happened & that I didn't blame anybody. Well I still don't & I still undertand why the Pacers chose to go that way.

But now I truely think it was a mistake.

I most definitely wanted us to re-sign Dale, and it has hurt us. He alone would probably solve some of our mismatches. JO would play 4. Which meant least time there for Granger, who would (in theory) play more 3, with Jackson playing more 2, and Sarunas more 1.

Re: An open honest discusion about the Pacers....

Yes and I think we need to start over. This team was built around Ron and JO and you take just one of those guys away and it is time to rebuild.

Along with Ron I would trade Tinsley, Jackson, and Foster.

Tinsley needs to go. He isn't durable and you can't have your starting point guard getting injured all the time if you want to win a championship. Plus he needs the ball alot to be effective. We need to get some guys who don't need the ball so much, IMO.

Jackson should go because he is so inconsistant. He is way to streaky. I can not stand it. I don't know how else to put it.

Foster can also go. I like what he gives us but we need a good starting 5. Foster is a nice guy to have off the bench but we do need an upgrade at the 5 or 4, whichever JO isn't playing. I think since Foster is our most valueable big man, besies JO of course, he needs to packaged up with either Tinsley, or Jackson or both so we can get a good starter who stays healthy.

As for Dale Davis I wanted him re-signed but now that I see we are not going to be championship material for another 2 years he wouldn't have been much help to us right now.

Re: An open honest discusion about the Pacers....

It disappointed me to read today that Donnie does not want to do a mega-trade that includes 3-4 Pacers. That told me that he isn't going to bring in a talent the likes of which we need.

That told me that too, but then I put on my hat and decided to pretend that was all spin to increase our trade leverage and of course he'd do a mega-trade.

I can pretend that until Mike Wells announces the arrival of the new team mascot we got from some NBA team in trade for Artest. Then we can discuss how this new mascot will be able to help Boomer now that Bowser is so out of condition and 'dogging' it on time-outs (times out) these days.

-Bball

Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

------

"A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

Re: An open honest discusion about the Pacers....

Just a little screwed. To my measure two good trades are in order.
One involving the obvious, sg/sf, the other one i have been convinced
on, the defending pg. With Saras developement and clear ability to lead
i see him being the back up under Tinsley barring a trade.
The consistent scorer at either sg or sf is a must. Jax has
proved to everyone that he isn't it and the trade of Ron
had better involve offense. The most important trade i think we can do is appease RC with
a defender at the point. He can be a sg or a pg to me but
as long as we get some disruption from perimeter our interior
defense should hold its ground.I like FJ, i like Tinsley and Jax
but we are here to build a team and their strengths don't
mask the others weaknesses.

Re: An open honest discusion about the Pacers....

How much of the turmoil right now is beause the Artest thing is up in the air.

Very little...

We weren't all that good of a team before Artest bailed. UB was already talking about it but saying he couldn't put his finger on what the problem was. We all had some question marks. The Artest thing has just overwhelmed and overshadowed everything else.

BTW... I'd like to add a longer response to this thread when I have more time later tonight. I'm not dodging the question(s).

-Bball

Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

------

"A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

Re: An open honest discusion about the Pacers....

Problem is that our players don't mask the others weaknesses.
We have a good passer in Tinsley but slashers who think
they don't need it. WE have no spot up shooter, no consistent 3
point threat. Slow defense on the outside. Average at best
rebounding and one post up player. This isn't a team you
can win with. A good defender on the perimeter and a good shooter
from anywhere on the floor will cure some ill's. That probably
won't be one guy like Artest but that means you can move
more head cases for some talent to fit RC scheme which i am
not sure he has one with this current team.

Re: An open honest discusion about the Pacers....

I don't buy for a second that Rick is holding DH back, DH is doing it to himself. That is enough about him. I hope he's traded along with Ron, Jax and Tinsley as I said 12/13.

I don't understand how you can still say this. What have we seen out of Rick this season that suggests that if a player is playing big minutes, he has earned them, and vice versa? This is the guy that has completely abused Sarunas is favor of Anthony Johnson. Danny is the best and only SF on our team yet he isn't starting. (Limited minutes yesterday too) And he continues to play an absolutely horrible Jeff Foster (started yesterday even).