yaco wrote:Most of what you post is well considered and correct - Sky flaunt their arrogance every day of the week but the behaviour of the French public is disproportionate and many levels above the Giro and the Vuelta - Of course some poster's agenda will support this type of behaviour - The people who lose out are the riders who don't get to enjoy the pleasures of riding the TDF.

A few idiots have certainly gone too far - whether or not they were French I don't know. And intimidation, whether of riders, staff or fans, is not on. But I have no problem with booing - it's part of sport, and it causes no physical harm. I believe there can be justifications for it, within reason.

As I alluded to, I think for the French the thing is that the Tour is a national pride event, a big deal, a sacred relic, a showcase of France to the world. This is not the case to anywhere near the same extent with the other GTs. So there is a feeling, rightly or wrongly, that Sky are disrespecting and damaging the race, and therefore by extension France itself. This manifests in anger and voiced displeasure and dislike, which indeed is partly nationalistic. No question the French at least partly reap what they sow - doping has been tolerated and winked at in cycling and the Tour for decades; Sky are just the latest successful proponents of it, and can hardly be blamed for that in and of itself. But the arrogance, sense of superiority and pompousness that comes with it, tinged with a barely veiled British jingoism, must be hard to take.

It's bubbled away for a few years now, but seeing Froome this year beat an adverse test on very questionable grounds, compounded by Brailsford's seeming determination to rub it in and pleading of complete wonderment at how people could possibly be cross with Sky, has been too much. To dominate is one thing, to be arrogant whilst doing so is something more, but then to seemingly operate on an unfair and corrupt playing field is something else again. There's a fine line between legitimate voicing of dislike and dangerous aggression, and the race has seen a few too many skirting the latter, but the actually causes of that disgust are to me perfectly understandable.

I distinctly remember Froome getting booed at Jafferau as he approached the finish line. The crowds are more sparse and less tourists congregate at the Giro but make no mistake there were definitely boo's.

Really?? I don't remember that at all, and i was literally on the finish line...well just to the right hand side of it

samhocking wrote:So really it's a WADA and UCI governance issue at its heart Hog, not a Froome/Sky issue as such.

Just a UCI issue. The UCI still has total authority over sanctioning an athlete. This is the case for all Olympic sports. The IOC formed WADA to act as a kind of complicated system that hides the fact federations still permit doping. WADA is only a standards body.

However, WADA's standards are actually quite good. The science used in blood testing is quite good. It's that the system is ignored by federations when they feel the need. And then the federations that keep telling the lies about WADA's authority.

That maybe true, but that still suggests WADA told UCI what they wanted to hear if you think Froome really did AAF and WADA covered it up for UCI to say no violation? What is messed up, is generally this decision is under Lappartient who sees very little pressure from fans really. To aim it at Sky is like blaming a driver you think is driving too fast because the council put the wrong speed limit on the road. It's all back-to-front logic to me.

I distinctly remember Froome getting booed at Jafferau as he approached the finish line. The crowds are more sparse and less tourists congregate at the Giro but make no mistake there were definitely boo's.

Really?? I don't remember that at all, and i was literally on the finish line...well just to the right hand side of it

Measured and calm response, Lappartient is clearly the most mature in this situation.

Lappartient to AFP: Brailsford should not "pour oil on the fire" and "he does not serve his riders well when he is sheltered inside the car or bus ... I can understand he is annoyed the fans are not enthusiastic about his team, but that is no reason to attack the French public"

It seems like unless you dance to his tune he just can't accept it. He must be living in a sheltered bubble where I honestly don't think he gets the anger of many withing the cycling world. Every time he opens his mouth he just end up making things worse.

LOL. Sir Dave is unable to resist kicking the hornets' nest. I would say he has not reduced the likelihood of adverse fan reactions to his boys in week 3 of the Tour.

The press, social media (oops!), Hinault, etc. .. all did their part to whip (some) French fans into a frenzy.

It’s a sporting event, FFS ... and Sky riders are having piss thrown at them. For what???

Dave just calling it as he sees it. Some French fans could do a lot better; Italian fans did.

“Passionate French Fans” is just a euphemism (and smokescreen) for .... over zealous, sick behaviour.

Good for Brailsford for sticking up for his team.

This question must have been asked over and over again, but I have yet to see a satisfactory answer: The Tour being an international event with fans lining the roads from all over the world....how do they know that all of these disgruntled fans are French?

yaco wrote:I don't have much time for Brailsford who can be pompous and arrogant at times,but on this occasion he is stating the obvious - Sky receive a generous welcome in the Giro and the Vuelta, compared to the TDF - Sometimes the truth hurts.

Truth or not (more than a grain of it in my opinion, but thats beside the point) it does seem remarkably ill-judged. To complain about your employees being put in danger and then pretty much accuse the people putting them in danger of being a nation of backward half-wits doesn't seem very responsible to me.

I really think he knows his time is up before long and he just can't be arsed even trying to rebuild bridges.

I posted that Brailsford is pompous and arrogant - It still doesn't change the issue of the unsavoury and uncouth behaviour at the TDF, compared to the Giro and the Vuelta.

Is it possible that the fans (not just the French) found it all quite suspicious that the fact that Froome was banned from racing days before the Tour by ASO (since his case was still pending) and days later after months of deliberation he was suddenly cleared?

ontheroad wrote:It's visible from the TV screens that crowds are down and it was never more obvious than on Alpe d'huez. Interest in the tour has significantly waned since Sky have turned it into a borefest with their grinding style and general poor behaviour and arrogance. And that's before any of the doping problems that have surfaced over the last 2 years.

Dave Brailsford is simply upset that people have not swallowed his style of bullshit whole. The fact that he played the Xenophobic card is simply another diversionary tactic since he knows his audience is now almost an exclusively UK based jingoistic one. Most rational cycling fans are not prepared to continue to have their intelligence insulted and it should be a source of pride that spectators at the TDF (many of whom are not even French) have a lower propensity for bullshit than at other events.

I'd agree the crowds are the smallest i've ever seen on Alpe Duez this year. I wasn't at that stage in person, but have been on a few others this year and numbers seem much less. In the Roubaix stage you could even drive your car on some of the section two hours before they were so empty.How much of that is down to Sky and how much of it is down to ASO, UCI & WADA d!cking about with Froome's case decision i'm not sure though. Sky basically followed the rules to the letter on this, so i'd argue the damage is not really anything Sky had control of preventing. They likely didn't leak the AAF and they didn't clear Froome either, so is peoples issue really with those that govern the sport and anti-doping? The fact Lappartient stated in no uncertain terms Froome had the money to buy his innocence was perhaps the most damaging aspect of the case, but for some reason nobody is really very angry at UCI or WADA at least on the road side for allowing that to be possible if it is true and no evidence a guilty verdict was made innocent either. Where are the UCI & WADA suck Froome's b*lls for $$ flags? Everyone just wants it to be a Sky problem only so they can't win it seems, which it clearly isn't, rather than dealing with the core issue which a lack of believable anti-doping power and weak/gullible/corrupt UCI governance issue, perceived or real beyond social media banter.

Strangely it is being ignored that this hostility towards Sky is not just something that sprang up out of the ground in 2018. It has been a snowball slowing rolling down hill since Sky and Brailsford began with their bs initiative, an attitude that pretty much insulted the intelligence of anyone that has been following the sport for an extended period of time. The outrage by Brailsford that cycling world wasn't immediately bowing down to his "genius" has him dumbfounded and with his massive ego and delusional sensibilities can't fathom how that is possible. They have their faithful followers but anyone that isn't is seen as anti-British, or anti-anglo by these followers. The comments sections of many of the stages is a broken record of bashing Cycling News, the traditional nationalities that the sport is based on (France, Italy, Spain and Scandanavia), with the reasoning being that they are all jealous of Sky's success

Since Armstrong this has gone beyond doping. This is about politics and the ritual humiliation of France as a nation by Anglo-Saxons. Before it was just a bunch of disparate cheats in lycra and even the ludicrous Nadal is just a cottoned version of that tradition. Armstrong and now SKY have taken it to this new level. Who needs Steve Bannon causing trouble in Europe by complaining about “elites” when SKY are doing a much better job at p1ssing off the indigenous peoples?

samhocking wrote:That maybe true, but that still suggests WADA told UCI what they wanted to hear if you think Froome really did AAF and WADA covered it up for UCI to say no violation?

The UCI does the covering up. In theory, WADA is only a standards making and auditing body. Reedie has been very impressive in his efforts to permit doping and corruption while lying for the federations. It wasn't always like that.

The very important point is the federations are the ones actively burying some positives. Go back a few years to the infamous Martial Saugy. FIFA, IAAF and the UCI used Saugy to bury positives at the direction of the federation.

The analogy I used to use was WADA/NADOs are the equivalent of mall cops, observe and report.

Wow! SirDooshBag is quite a piece of work. I think some of the behaviour is way over the top at le Tour. I think it always has been ... the big deal event where people get drunk long before the riders arrive. But making comments with a racist slant about the host nation is really just grade A pr1ck territory. And it certainly doe not moves in the right direction.

yaco wrote:I don't have much time for Brailsford who can be pompous and arrogant at times,but on this occasion he is stating the obvious - Sky receive a generous welcome in the Giro and the Vuelta, compared to the TDF - Sometimes the truth hurts.

Truth or not (more than a grain of it in my opinion, but thats beside the point) it does seem remarkably ill-judged. To complain about your employees being put in danger and then pretty much accuse the people putting them in danger of being a nation of backward half-wits doesn't seem very responsible to me.

I really think he knows his time is up before long and he just can't be arsed even trying to rebuild bridges.

I posted that Brailsford is pompous and arrogant - It still doesn't change the issue of the unsavoury and uncouth behaviour at the TDF, compared to the Giro and the Vuelta.

Is it possible that the fans (not just the French) found it all quite suspicious that the fact that Froome was banned from racing days before the Tour by ASO (since his case was still pending) and days later after months of deliberation he was suddenly cleared?[/quote

Continue to blame others for the sins of the French. There are international tourists at all GT's, albeit a greater number at the TDF. Reading your post makes me think few French people live in France. At the end of the day the behaviour of the public at the TDF makes the race unpleasant for the riders.

buckle wrote:Since Armstrong this has gone beyond doping. This is about politics and the ritual humiliation of France as a nation by Anglo-Saxons. Before it was just a bunch of disparate cheats in lycra and even the ludicrous Nadal is just a cottoned version of that tradition. Armstrong and now SKY have taken it to this new level. Who needs Steve Bannon causing trouble in Europe by complaining about “elites” when SKY are doing a much better job at p1ssing off the indigenous peoples?

New level...Maybe you should listen yesterdays podcast from Armstrong and Hincapie to hear what they actually thought about Brailsford.

Lappartient and Brailsford have not spoken to each other since the Frenchman became UCI president in the autumn of last year. Instead, their relationship has been crystalised by a tit-for-tat exchange in the media.

What?! Somebody call Dr. Phil or someone, because that's ridiculous.

"Are you going to believe me or what you see with your own eyes?"

“It doesn’t matter what I do. People need to hear what I have to say. There’s no one else who can say what I can say. It doesn’t matter what I live.”

Lappartient and Brailsford have not spoken to each other since the Frenchman became UCI president in the autumn of last year. Instead, their relationship has been crystalised by a tit-for-tat exchange in the media.

What?! Somebody call Dr. Phil or someone, because that's ridiculous.

Lappartient makes a good point that Brialsfraud gets the protection of the team bus the riders don’t. It’s foolish to put his riders at risk like he does.

When Froome was under investigation, Brailsford said they could not give the information to prove he was clean until it was ended. And now they don't want to give it for any reason. That is sure that is the French who are responsible of that unfair boooooing

yaco wrote:I don't have much time for Brailsford who can be pompous and arrogant at times,but on this occasion he is stating the obvious - Sky receive a generous welcome in the Giro and the Vuelta, compared to the TDF - Sometimes the truth hurts.

Truth or not (more than a grain of it in my opinion, but thats beside the point) it does seem remarkably ill-judged. To complain about your employees being put in danger and then pretty much accuse the people putting them in danger of being a nation of backward half-wits doesn't seem very responsible to me.

I really think he knows his time is up before long and he just can't be arsed even trying to rebuild bridges.

I posted that Brailsford is pompous and arrogant - It still doesn't change the issue of the unsavoury and uncouth behaviour at the TDF, compared to the Giro and the Vuelta.

Is it possible that the fans (not just the French) found it all quite suspicious that the fact that Froome was banned from racing days before the Tour by ASO (since his case was still pending) and days later after months of deliberation he was suddenly cleared?[/quote

Continue to blame others for the sins of the French. There are international tourists at all GT's, albeit a greater number at the TDF. Reading your post makes me think few French people live in France. At the end of the day the behaviour of the public at the TDF makes the race unpleasant for the riders.

...and where do I blame others? I question the French being solely responsible when on the climbs you see flags flying for quite a few of the nationalities that make up the peloton. Foolishly laying all the blame on the French seems just as unfair as what you appear to be accusing me of.

poupou wrote:When Froome was under investigation, Brailsford said they could not give the information to prove he was clean until it was ended. And now they don't want to give it for any reason. That is sure that is the French who are responsible of that unfair boooooing