MARSHALL: Yes, right. Uh-huh. Well. Now you see, I didn’t—I, I know Mrs.

Roberson but I didn’t know—

NEELY: Mm-hmm.

MARSHALL: Y’know, I hadn’t connected the two.

NEELY: Well, I’m 80 years old.

MARSHALL: Yeah, I, I was about to ask you, uh, wh—when, how, about to ask you,

when was your birthday?

NEELY: Eleventh of November.

MARSHALL: Eleventh of November, and you were born—

NEELY: 1900.

MARSHALL: 1900. Eleventh of November, 1981, you’ll be 81 years old.

NEELY: That’s right.

MARSHALL: I had an uncle who was, let’s see, his birthday was July, then his

2:00birthday was July 5th, uh, 1900, and he died last year [laughs]. But, um, Ifigured you’d been around quite a while. And, uh, real—really, uh, oh, whatI want to ask you, the next thing I want to ask you is, uh, the things—whenyou—about the time you came to Ypsilanti, the time you came to Ypsilanti,could you tell me what, uh, situ—what circumstances were, so far as, [tupelo]so far as black people were concerned?

NEELY: Well, most black people in Ypsilanti when I came here called themselves

Canadians because they said their parents were Ca—were from Canada. And, uh,well, we, the newcomer black man…why, I heard, uh, one lady in particular call3:00a, speak, speak of me “all those southern Negroes.”

MARSHALL: Yeah.

NEELY: Her nephew and me were in a fight—just kids.

MARSHALL: Uh-huh.

NEELY: My father was a deacon in the Methodist Church and I attended Sunday

School at the Methodist—A.M.E. Methodist Church.

MARSHALL: Where, where we are now.

NEELY: [ ] place was built, 1905 I think.

MARSHALL: Yeah, right.

NEELY: Does that answer your question?

MARSHALL: Well, that’s, that’s part of it, and then, and now, keep, just

keep right on talking. I am interested in, uh, I’m interested in, what did thepeople, what, what, what was the general attitude of the people?4:00

NEELY: The general attitude of the people was everyone—there was no renters.

Ev—everyone owned their own home. My, we, my family, when they came here, myfather was a construction worker.

MARSHALL: Oh yeah.

NEELY: And of course, he came, he first stopped in Detroit. He was only in

Detroit a day and a half before he was out here.

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

NEELY: And, uh, he roomed with a family called the Upthegroves, and they lived

on Hamilton Street. The, the Upthegrove house is still there. And, we roomedwith them for a while, then we moved from the Upthegroves over to a, the5:00relatives of the Richison group, which was the Bowles family.

MARSHALL: Oh, the Bowles. Solomon Bowles.

NEELY: Solomon Bowles. We, we lived with Solomon Bowles

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

NEELY: for a long time.

MARSHALL: It was at that time Solomon was in the moving business.

NEELY: Solomon was a, was a house mover.

MARSHALL: Yeah, yeah.

NEELY: He was with Egbert Bowles.

MARSHALL: Egbert, right.

NEELY: Uh, about that time, uh, we was going to, going to school, too, my

brother and I, and uh, we lived with, we lived, we, we lived with Egbert Bowles, y’know.

NEELY: And of course I, worked around with Ypsilanti as a porter at the, in the

fraternity houses in Ann Arbor for awhile.

MARSHALL: Uh-huh.

NEELY: And after I got through with that, I wind up with a, I was trying to

find myself because I—

MARSHALL: Mm.

NEELY: I was not a, not a construction worker [but I didn’t make any, make].

MARSHALL: Yeah, uh-huh.

NEELY: And uh, but I, but I got to work with a man by the name of Cain. He was

a dry cleaner.

MARSHALL: Was that K-E-E-N-E?

NEELY: C-A-I-N.

MARSHALL: Oh, C-A-I-N, OK.

NEELY: Yeah. And it was, he called Cain’s Cleaning and Dying, he and I began

to, to work together.

MARSHALL: That was here in Ypsilanti.

NEELY: That was here in Ypsilanti, yes. And uh, we were cleaning and pressing,

that was about, around 1921, 22. And uh, and then on we, we, mm, let me think8:00about that. Then we were doing quite a bit of that—the cleaners and dyers thenwere just beginning to get, get themselves together.

MARSHALL: I see.

NEELY: And then see, I was in the position when I had to leave school on

account of family conditions.

MARSHALL: Sure, mm-hmm.

NEELY: And, uh, very poor. My dad, when he was doing no, nobody was making any

money, and of course you had to, had to have something.

MARSHALL: Yeah.

NEELY: So I had to produce the best I could

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

NEELY: and that’s the way it was. So I, I worked with Cain and I, I began to

pick up on the dry cleaning business and I begin to get ahold of periodicals ofit, things to read about it, what it is,

NEELY: So he figured that I would take it and I did too, because I was

determined to see to it that he made it. I couldn’t

MARSHALL: Yeah, uh-huh.

NEELY: make it, so I’ll see to it that the other fellow can.

MARSHALL: Yeah.

NEELY: So I was [had it] that he graduate with flying colors.

MARSHALL: Uh.

NEELY: And uh, I come through with that, let me see if I can connect the—

MARSHALL: How long did you stay in the cleaning business?

NEELY: Oh, I stayed in the cleaning business for the rest of my life.

MARSHALL: Oh yeah.

NEELY: But I, but I had to go, see Goldman, at the time, I was to go, going,

doing pretty good. Goldman and Green and a couple of other young kids keptcoming into town and you see, they were white, they had more money than I did,and they had a cleaner’s war between the two of them. But in that cleaner’swar, I got wiped out.

MARSHALL: Oh.

NEELY: Well, I couldn’t take it.

MARSHALL: Yeah.

NEELY: So I had to go to work. So I, then I went back and forth to Detroit from

12:00here to work for awhile. And that, uh, then at the, time of 19, I think it wasFriday, in 1929 with the Stock Market Crisis.

MARSHALL: Yeah, yeah.

NEELY: That was the—you could, you remember that?

MARSHALL: Yeah, I remember that.

NEELY: It was that, it was a Friday evening,

MARSHALL: Uh-huh, sure was.

NEELY: And I was uh, I was at New Todd’s Cleaners and Dyers on, way out on

Jefferson Avenue.

MARSHALL: Yeah.

NEELY: I was getting into the high price cleaners as a presser,

MARSHALL: Yeah.

NEELY: spotter, cleaner, ’cause I wanted to see how they did it.

MARSHALL: Sure.

NEELY: Not so much

MARSHALL: Yeah.

NEELY: [until] the enterprise,

MARSHALL: Yeah, yeah.

NEELY: get in there. See how they did it. And that’s because the, the, the,

the Cleaners and Dryers school would not admit me.

MARSHALL: I see.

NEELY: They would not train me.

MARSHALL: Mm.

NEELY: And the white cleaners, at that time, around here, would not hire a

black spotter. They would hire a black presser, but they wouldn’t have a black spotter.

MARSHALL: Mm.

NEELY: He could clean, but he wouldn’t let, wouldn’t let him spot

MARSHALL: Mm, mm-hmm.

NEELY: because the spotter was the highest-priced man.

MARSHALL: Sure, yeah.

NEELY: The spotter was getting anywhere from eighty-five to a hundred and fifty

NEELY: I, ’cause I, I married her because I was the kind of fellow I didn’t

like the w—the way that the young girls were dressed.

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

NEELY: And,see, I’d get a woman, ’cause I needed somebody who’s going to

help me get ahead.

MARSHALL: Sure.

NEELY: so I married her and her four kids. But I made a mistake.

MARSHALL: Mm.

NEELY: [That one too, but go ahead.]

MARSHALL: Mm. Mm.

NEELY: Yeah, but the kids all liked me

MARSHALL: Yeah, yeah.

NEELY: but me and her, we couldn’t make it.

MARSHALL: Uh-huh.

NEELY: Until I married, I’ve been married to [ ] for 40 years. And, uh, so,

uh, I’m married to, I separated from her; I kept on going for myself, I—

MARSHALL: Mm.

NEELY: And I worked at, uh, Trojan Laundry for 32 straight years. I went down

there around, went down there around a hundred and, a hundred and 1930-something.

MARSHALL: Uh-huh.

NEELY: I went down there as a, as a presser, to—just to get in there

MARSHALL: Yeah.

NEELY: ’cause it was a good—get to started here. I started at 45 cents an

hour. At noon, they gave me 50 cents an hour and, at fifty, and in the evening,15:00they raised me to 60 cents an hour.

MARSHALL: Ohhh.

NEELY: They figured they’d hire the first Negro

MARSHALL: Yeah, yeah.

NEELY: man in the pressing field down there

MARSHALL: Uh-huh.

NEELY: and just see what, what I could do.

MARSHALL: Yeah.

NEELY: But they found that I was quite ex—well experienced

MARSHALL: Yeah.

NEELY: and knew exactly what I was doing

MARSHALL: Yeah.

NEELY: and when I did a job, it was right.

MARSHALL: Yeah, yeah.

NEELY: So they, they was making every effort to g—get ahold of me. ’Cause

the man that they hired there at the head of the thing, he wasn’t part of theUniversity of Michigan

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

NEELY: but that’s all he do, is what he, what he read some books over

MARSHALL: Yeah, yeah.

NEELY: there. And they didn’t teach nothing about dry cleaners.

MARSHALL: Yeah, yeah.

NEELY: But he was just the head of the thing and I was the man doing the work.

MARSHALL: Yeah.

NEELY: So that just give me a full swing at that, to do my way, to do things my way.

MARSHALL: Uh-huh.

NEELY: And I was doing it. And I was getting away with nay—with doing it.

MARSHALL: Yeah.

NEELY: I was putting them over but I was learning for myself

MARSHALL: Sure.

NEELY: finally. And I had come, I’d come on time too as time grew on. Uh, I,

uh, He, he married the, the owner, called the Washington Laundries[coughs]—the Washington Laundry from Ann Arbor—married the spotter that was16:00working down there. So he, it was decided, they decided to go to California andhe recommended me to take his spot, ’cause he out there in person.

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

NEELY: So they, they didn’t, they was being cheap, y’know. They, they give

me, they started me off then at a hundred dollars

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

NEELY: per week, and uh, for I to, to do the job that he was doing.

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

NEELY: But I—there wasn’t nothing to do, you got to do it anyway before he

left there.

MARSHALL: Yeah, yeah.

NEELY: Nothing I wasn’t doing.

MARSHALL: Yeah, uh-huh.

NEELY: I was just, just, just you just, you could do it the same thing, there

wasn’t no—one less man.

MARSHALL: Yeah.

NEELY: So, I kept on going with that until finally, after the, the war, and

they started to have these little schools for, for teaching dry cleaning. Agroup of people, E., uh, Mar—, E., I think it was E. E. uh, not E. E. but aman by the name of Marshall in Detroit that was on the school board there,George Porter—uh, he was the biggest cleaner, Negro cleaner in, yeah, and, uh,17:00Alfred E. Philum, he was the, the editor of the City of Detroit Sun,

MARSHALL: Oh, uh.

NEELY: so, he uh, after he got he put up a school like that, [he strike on]

MARSHALL: Mm.

NEELY: Well, then he watch and pick me up.

MARSHALL: Yeah, yeah.

NEELY: I was making myself a hundred dollars a week they come and offer me a

hundred and fifty.

MARSHALL: Yeah, yeah.

NEELY: Naturally, I went down there and got

MARSHALL: Sure.

NEELY: the hundred and fifty.

MARSHALL: Yeah, mm-hmm.

NEELY: And of course, uh, I was down there until that closed. All that gave me

NEELY: Y’know, since then, since ’68 right on up until now, my health has

been slowly receding.

MARSHALL: Yeah.

NEELY: Right now, I can’t walk, uh, two city blocks, uh, well, I can’t

walk. Go there and back there two, three times I’m out of wind.

MARSHALL: Yeah, yeah.

NEELY: Yeah.

MARSHALL: Now, now, now, during that particular time, of course you you you you

you covered a period there when, uh,

NEELY: I covered a [that’s] twenty or thirty years.

MARSHALL: black folks started waking up.

NEELY: Oh, yes.

MARSHALL: Now, I, I, I always say we started waking up right after the second

world war. Up to that time we were just sleeping. But, uh, those guys who cameback here from, uh, from being in the war, at least, I wasn’t part of it, butI was in the war. And I, I know, I know what we did back where I was, I was inNorth Carolina, by the way. Uh, so I mean, I’m interested in the, what washappening in Ypsilanti, particularly during that time.21:00

NEELY: Yeah, I see what [it is]. Them folks have been telling you about the

MARSHALL: And they—people were probably critical of you then and they’re not

anymore. You know that.

NEELY: Yeah, oh yeah.

MARSHALL: I mean, this is one of those—’course, I go through some of the

same things.

NEELY: Yeah.

MARSHALL: So I, so I understand that.

NEELY: Well, I tell you. The, the idea of unionization started right around

until then. Everything out here was unorganized. It was day labor, anything theywanted to pay them. Kicking them around. So the Amalgamated Clothing Workersstarted to, organizing the laundry workers. And of course they came to theTrojan Laundry first. The Amalgamated Clothing Workers are a white group, aJewish group, and of course, they started working with the white people down at22:00the laundry. Now, I don’t know this, all I’m doing is down there trying tomake a reputation, a name for myself, and putting out a good job. But, they was,they were, they was secretly, that whole group, laundry group—whites, mostly,there was about 10 colored, or, 10 blacks in the whole laundry, rest of ’emwas white—and they, they decided that they would organize if they would get,Ben Neely would join them. Yeah. Now how that got out, how they happened to havesuch an opinion of me, I don’t know.

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

NEELY: But anyway, that’s what they told me. I said, well, I, I believed in

unionism, but I suggest the question is, will it stick? ’Cause I don’t wantthem to get me out there, get them to where I get my neck out in WashtenawCounty, ’cause I won’t be able to get a job nowhere around here. ’Causeif they got to that place where they found that I was secretly organizing people—

MARSHALL: Yeah.

NEELY: and I was!

MARSHALL: Yeah.

NEELY: And of course I, I couldn’t have got, couldn’t get a job at

Golman’s, I couldn’t get a job at Green’s, I couldn’t get a job at uh,uh, Forbes—none of those places.23:00

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

NEELY: And, uh, even Jackson’s, ’cause, we’d stay away from him.

MARSHALL: Yeah, yeah.

NEELY: And Trojan’s couldn’t fire me because if they did, if they did, it failed.

MARSHALL: Yeah [laughs] Oh…

NEELY: So they kept it going like that for over a long period of time. Uh,

Ypsilanti was one of the most—Ypsilanti was, and is now one of the mostprejudiced spots you can find in Michigan. But it’s more subtle now than itever was before. Uh, during when I first came here, there were two theaters. Onewas the Martha Washington. No blacks could go there at all at the time when Ifirst came here. And the other was at the, what they call the Wuerth Theater.You couldn’t go to the, go to the downstairs there but you could go up in theceiling, upstairs there. That’s where the theaters for years, be like that.24:00

MARSHALL: But we went, didn’t we?

NEELY: Oh yes, we went. Finally, a man by the name of Marshall Scott uh, went

and, went downstairs. They put him out, and he sued them. And uh, he had, theyhad a battle and he won his fight. They had to open up that bottom, and allowcolored people to go downstairs. And later on, they had to open up the MarthaWashington so they could go there. And they could eat at no restaurantsdownstairs but one, but one little place where that uh, they could, that blackpeople, they had very little work that they could do in Ypsilanti.

MARSHALL: Yeah.

NEELY: They had to either go to [mister] Ford’s or some place out of town to

work because there was no jobs in Ypsilanti. And so you see they had what theycall crews to drive me until Ford began to build out, out here.

MARSHALL: Yeah.

NEELY: I uh, I worked for a short time at Ford’s, but I, I just wasn’t

25:00that, wasn’t that kind of a construction work—I mean, a, a factory worker. Iwas, I’d go for waiting tables or something on that order. Something that [goaway] you feel clean; I didn't like to feel, to be dirty.

MARSHALL: Yeah [laughs]

NEELY: for some reason. But I, but I figured if I could wait tables, I could

work to make enough money.

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

NEELY: And of course, uh, you managed to get on the school, you know how [our

waiters] were getting into classes there,

MARSHALL: Yeah.

NEELY: doing them things, they would get to working,

MARSHALL: Yeah.

NEELY: they, they know how to get ahold of things, too, y’know.

MARSHALL: [Laughs]

NEELY: And of course I, I had, I, I was in that group that elected Mayor

Orville Hubbard of Dearborn. That, that crew paid me $15 that night for waitingon them and serving them whiskey.

MARSHALL: Well now, well now, when you, when you, when you got interested in

26:00this union business, how much support were you actually getting from the other blacks?

NEELY: Good support.

MARSHALL: That good support.

NEELY: Good support. Uh, that was, that was, there’s where we made our

biggest, biggest haul. You see, we had to get the blacks so that they would takeus because, see, blacks was against unionists to an extent. Uh, I uh, I went toschool with them for a while. They, they sent me to different conventionsincluding in Chicago,

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

NEELY: and I think we, we went to, to the camp a couple of times to see what

the union was doing. We studied how they, how they operated, how they, how theyto attack an organization, and how to use tactics to persuade people to dothings, and how to uh, uh, to evade you may say the, the, the uh, way of the27:00management had of trying to put a special person in your midst.

MARSHALL: Yeah.

NEELY: But we, we were, figured out that, instead of, uh, I guess that was my

NEELY: [Laughs] So we, [ ] and we were accepting it and we would take it back

to him, but in the meantime, he thought he was going to ask for their, for their benefit

MARSHALL: Yeah.

NEELY: and we were poisoning management

MARSHALL: Yeah, yeah.

NEELY: at the same time. But finally they, y’know, that got exposed and they,

they, well, they fired him all right, but they couldn’t fire us, we wouldn'ttake the guy because we knew he wasn’t for us.

MARSHALL: Yeah.

NEELY: So, it was just, and, uh, what that did, that meant that the, the, the

white union members and the black union members, they [just look at the benefitsand leave, see what benefit about it]

MARSHALL: Yeah.

NEELY: What he think. That’s, let’s, let’s, let’s all get together. And

we’d together just figure out something, and then we’d, we’d spot our man,28:00and see what, see how it got to the other guy. Then we’d know exactly how itgot there. And we’d cook up things and send to them.

MARSHALL: So…[laughs]

NEELY: In other words, I was what you’d call a double-crosser.

MARSHALL: Well, that’s one of those things white folks forced us to do.

NEELY: Well, that’s what they thought they were doing. But I was, I was organizing.

MARSHALL: While you’re getting yourself together, this, just, just the other

day, somebody, I mentioned Ben Neely and somebody said, “Well, you need totalk to Ben Neely because Ben Neely was lead—was leading protests around herewhen the rest of the blacks were perfectly happy with their status quo.”29:00[Laughs] That’s what they said about you. They said, they were talking aboutblacks in Ypsilanti protesting, and they were just saying that, “Well, BenNeely was leading protests when nobody else was interested.”

NEELY: That’s right, that’s right. Yep. You see, that was during the time

when the depression was on and they wasn’t feeding the people. They’d givethe whites what they, anything they wanted, and give the blacks practicallynothing. So I decided then what you call outright, put it, put it on the spot.They wanted to brand me as a Communist. But I wasn’t a Communist. Mm-mm, Inever was Communist. And I never fought the Communists either. Because he wasfighting my battle too. So I’d, I’d accept, I’d accept what help I couldget from him

MARSHALL: Sure.

NEELY: but I didn’t have to get, have my name on his roll because I know that

in America, Communism can’t win in America. But their, but their protest,their activity could help me win,

MARSHALL: Sure,

NEELY: so I’d take it there, just take away where you could get it.

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

NEELY: So I would work with the protests. And, uh, Foster Fletcher hates me,

30:00hates me today because he was, they even done sent the I, the I, the,

MARSHALL: The F.B.I.?

NEELY: The F.B.I., they sent them down to Trojan Laundry to try to get me to

join the Communist Party, yeah, want to get me to join the Communist Party sothat I would report to him. I tell him uh-uh. Said I’m no stool pigeon fornobody! So you, I know who you are, you were, there was no way you could come tome with that. And I’m not telling you, on you, and you tell anything you wantto tell on me, but I’m not joining.

MARSHALL: Mm.

NEELY: You tell ’em that.

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

NEELY: [ ] don’t bother me no more.

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

NEELY: But Bobby Dennis—poor fellow—he was the, he was the, he was a member

of the Eastern Michigan [two] school.

MARSHALL: Dennis?

NEELY: Yeah, young Buddy Dennis, you probably don’t know him.

MARSHALL: Nah.

NEELY: He was up, he, he graduated from there before you got into there.

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

NEELY: But, yes, but, uh, he was, he joined the Communist Party. He was going

NEELY: but ah, he wouldn’t do it. I could have used him but I had to get away

from him.

MARSHALL: Yeah [laughs]

NEELY: because he was, he was poison.

MARSHALL: Well now, what were you doing? They were setting up these soup

kitchens to feed people and, and, providing people with, uh, food, and, stufflike that, and not—and ignoring the blacks? Is that what happened?

NEELY: That was, that was later. That was all, I wasn’t in it then.

MARSHALL: Oh.

NEELY: But I was where you had to go to people, they had to give you an order

for go to the grocery store.

MARSHALL: Oh.

NEELY: And get you the food that you wanted.

MARSHALL: I see.

NEELY: And, uh, and uh, you could get, you would go there and uh, they’d have

meat, ham, and everything else that you’d want, and, uh, give it to you,during the, during the time, I remember, I know once that Thomas was supposed tobe taking care of supplying meats, foodstuffs to the poor, to the poor peopleduring 1929, 30, and 35, in through there. Uh, the, the blacks would go down32:00there to get something, they didn’t have nothing, so they had to go away. SoI, I got a group of people together and I said, “Now we’re going to get somefood today. I’m going to tell you what’s liable to happen. The policedepartment is liable to come down here and want to drive us away. If they tellyou to go, don’t tell them no you’re not going, move! We run away. But soonas the cop goes away, come back to the same spot. And he will tell you to moveagain, go ahead, but as soon as he moves, you move.”

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

NEELY: “Just keep it back and forth. Do as he tell you all the time. If, if,

if you, you can’t be there, he can’t either, ’cause he got to be where,where you are to keep you there.”

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

NEELY: So it was, that thing, and in the meantime, the rest of them was begging

Thomas for food. Pretty soon it pretty near drove Thomas mad—he, he rushed outand he said, “Give these goddamn people anything they want! Give them thewhole damn thing, ’cause I don’t want no part of it no more!” Negroeswalking out of there with whole hams, sacks of flour, 5 pound bags of sugar.They couldn’t get a 2 pound bag of sugar before!33:00

MARSHALL: Yeah, yeah.

NEELY: They cracked it wide open.

MARSHALL: Uh-huh.

NEELY: Well…

MARSHALL: Now you keep saying Thomas. Is that Thomas Grocery? Where they getting

MARSHALL: Oh, I see. This was not a grocery store, but this was a, sort of a

[wows]. Yeah. I see.

NEELY: No. This was the beginning of this thing. No. It was a—yeah.

MARSHALL: I see.

NEELY: Yeah, this was a, this was a first, a first beginning of this thing.

See, there’s been two depressions: the first great depression and the secondone. The second one was at, at the, at, at the uh, war, the Vietnam War. But yousee, after the World War I, there was a depression.

MARSHALL: That’s what I’m thinking, yeah, I thought that was what you were

NEELY: the first world war. Yeah, that was a rough one. I mean that. There,

y’know, and of course there over the river, when they was organizing overthere, that was one of the most subtle things—even the, even the union waskind of smothered in, in a little bit there, with the—there was one group overthere did save me. We, yeah, called the White Tower. Now they wouldn’t serveno blacks, but I’d go along with the union brothers over there, over there andeat my breakfast along with them. I don’t realize that they had made anagreement with them to allow me to come in because the union wouldn’t allow no discrimination.

MARSHALL: Yeah, yeah.

NEELY: They would, they would allow, allow me to eat over there as long as they

were with me. I don’t realize that, though, they didn’t tell me about it; Iwent over there by myself one day to get something to eat. I know this womanlooking at me, never said nothing. Pretty soon she told me no, she wasn’tgoing to serve me. I said, “Why?” “You know you ain’t supposed to comein here.” I uh, so I called the police to get my order, get my, uh, come down35:00here and arrested me. Yeah. Y’know? They put me in jail. The union had to comeget me out of there.

MARSHALL: [Laughs]

NEELY: That’s something; that’s when the cat got out of the bag.

MARSHALL: Yeah.

NEELY: Then the union had to come on out and fight this, fight my battles.

MARSHALL: Yeah, yeah, so.

NEELY: Oh, man, I tell you, I, you see, all kinds of dirty tricks were pulled

on me. Every time I got one—didn’t make no difference who it was—I’dexpose it.

MARSHALL: Yeah, yeah.

NEELY: That was in, that was before Walter Reuther took power.

MARSHALL: Yeah, mm-hmm.

NEELY: After Walter Reuther took power, it kind of straightened it out. All

through that, ’course, now in this case with the White Tower, one of thepolicemen, they, they come out there, one of them was going to beat me up, butI, I turned my back and was walking away and he hauled off and hit me. I turnedaround and knocked him out.

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

NEELY: You see, knock a policeman out, you know,

MARSHALL: Yeah.

NEELY: he put his gun on me—I tell him, I tell him to move it or shoot it!

36:00[Laughs] I was getting ready. Then I hauled off to him and I was, I was crazy! Ididn’t have good sense.

MARSHALL: Oh yeah.

NEELY: Nobody, nobody but a darn fool would have done that but me.

MARSHALL: [Laughs] Oh, sure.

NEELY: Sure, now, that’s what they wanted to tell you about—them wild days

of mine.

MARSHALL: Uh-huh.

NEELY: when I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t take no for an answer. You hit me, and

I’m going to hit you back. You kill me, I’m just a dead, another dead man.

MARSHALL: Yeah. [Laughs]. Ah, sure. Was things like that that s—that moved us, though.

NEELY: Oh, yeah, they, they said that—

MARSHALL: Things like that that got us where we are today.

NEELY: And of course we, uh, let me see, uh, that’s all I can think of right now.

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

NEELY: ’Course, I, it had become time when we thought it to get, to work politically.

MARSHALL: Oh yeah.

NEELY: Oh yeah. Fellow by the name of Elliot Jordan and me were organizing for

37:00to uh, get the Negro to vote properly. Changing him over from the solidRepublican to vote either ticket—whichever one serves, serves him best.

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

NEELY: And at this time, we felt that, that the Democratic Party was the best

thing for us.

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

NEELY: But now our women was a trouble maker for us, for us, and for the black

man, black, uh, union man because our wages were so low that she could not, shecould not see the idea of him out there walking on the, on the, line drawing nomoney, and she’s suffering for food in the house for the children. But we had,we had to convince her that in order to, to get the greater re—get results andto make things better for us, we had to suffer a little bit more extra. ’Causeif we win this battle, we had the good battle made.

MARSHALL: Yeah.

NEELY: and we can get it, y’know. But Elliot Jordan and I, we sat down at

38:00that time in every home in Ypsilanti where Negroes lived, and every home inWillow Run, where Negroes lived,

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

NEELY: and talked to those people. And we’d go out into Willow Run, evening,

and do, dramatize everything.

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

NEELY: Just as the sun was setting, they’d had that song, ‘Hurry Up

Sundown, Let’s See What Tomorrow will Bring.’

MARSHALL: [Laughs]

NEELY: And just as that sun was setting, we’d be playing that piece pulling

into there.

MARSHALL: Mm.

NEELY: ‘Hurry Up Sundown, Let’s See What Tomorrow Brings.’ You’d see

the heads of them popping out and I’d get on the microphone and talk to thewomen, to support your husband in his efforts, and to organize because it’sfor your benefit. Sure, you’ll suffer. You might be a little hungry—so arewe. But help us starve our way into the success

MARSHALL: Yeah [laughs]

NEELY: and we’ll win. You know, them women got in there, took that fight,

took that bait, got in there, I mean, they went to town!

MARSHALL: Yeah.

NEELY: When Harvey Holmes was in the, the City Clerk, I was down there. It had

39:00got so they wouldn't let the Negro go down and register no more. So I went downthere to find out why. I, he said, “Who are you?” I said, “I’m the,I’m the organizer for the union and I want to know why these people can’tregister. You tell them they can’t register and I tell them they can!” Now,[after I told him that] I told them, “Now here, try to get you, get aregistration there. Let them turn you down.” He didn’t turn them down either!

MARSHALL: He didn’t turn them down [laughs]

NEELY: No, he didn’t turn them down. ’Cause I had a witness. If he’s been

turning down a man, wouldn’t let them register, [cause I was right port man] Icould get the International on that.

MARSHALL: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You ain’t no [buck] then, either.

NEELY: Mm-mm, noooo…

NEELY: They hated me,

MARSHALL: Uh-huh.

NEELY: and they had the policemen spotting me for everything.

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

NEELY: But I, but I, I come through. And they, and they, they don’t like me

too well yet because I don’t like Jimmy Moore. They all right I guess,’cause I, I’ve never had, never had no trouble with them since.

NEELY: but you see, we blacks are divided. Our educated blacks feel that

they’re our leaders and we’re supposed to take their word and have nothingto say about it. See, I don’t have the education that those people have41:00

MARSHALL: Yeah, mm-hmm.

NEELY: but I have common sense. And I feel that common sense along side of

education will get you by.

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

NEELY: They can give you method—give you a thing like that and how to do

things and get things done—but anything you know, you come and tell me andI’ll do it for you.

MARSHALL: Yeah, mm-hmm.

NEELY: And, uh, you do as I say and I’ll use you as my trooper to put me

over. Well, uh-uh. Do it right, do it to help mankind, make the best for all ofus instead of helping me and then you suffer right on. I couldn’t see that soI just, I let them think that they got me

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

NEELY: but I never joined them. And I haven’t joined them yet. And I don’t

think I will join them because I, well, you know, I, uh, when I make up my mind

MARSHALL: [Laughs]

NEELY: And I know that, and I’m going to call the man’s name: Spencer

Washington. The poor fellow is dead now. But he was, he was, he wast—terrific. He was always telling me, “Don’t get on wrong now, don’t get42:00on wrong.” And then there was another man that I tried to talk with. Now wewas electing John Burton and somebody, and Mr. Reeves was running in there atthat same time. I was leading the, leading the political group at that time. Isaid, “Mr. Reeves, we haven’t got anything against you. You, you, you seemto be pretty good with us.” I said, “But we didn’t know about you when weput John Burton up.” No, Frank Seymour think it was. When we put him, when weput him up. “But now if you’ll just stay up a little while, we’ll take youon the next round, we’ll put you over.” Now he looked at me ’cause he wasthat group, you know, well he was like me, [little use].

MARSHALL: Mm.

NEELY: So he kept saying that he was, that I was supposed to listen to him

because he knew what he was doing. So I backed off a little bit and told him, Isaid, “Well, Mr. Reeves, I’m sorry to say this…”

NEELY: No, no, Reeves—we had the following but Reeves was trying to cut in

there, to get people to vote for him.

MARSHALL: I see, yeah, I see.

NEELY: But you see, I was the leader of our group.

MARSHALL: I see. I got you.

NEELY: I was the man who, who was whe—guiding, guiding the, the, uh, the group

MARSHALL: Yeah.

NEELY: for the, uh, political action, in the first ward. Say in other words, I

was the CIO, was the political PAC man—

MARSHALL: Yeah.

NEELY: Political Action Committee.

MARSHALL: Yeah, uh-huh.

NEELY: I was the head of the Political Action Committee.

MARSHALL: Uh-huh, uh-huh.

NEELY: And I was on political action.

MARSHALL: Yeah, uh-huh.

NEELY: So I said, uh, “We’ll, we’ll pick you up and we’ll put you over,

but we can’t carry the two of you right now.”

MARSHALL: Yeah, mm-hmm.

NEELY: So he said, “Why can’t you put him down?” I said, “Well, we

didn’t know about you but we got this man and we, we, he’s, and he’s[proofed] in our way.” Because Frank was a worker

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

NEELY: and Mr. Reeves was not.

MARSHALL: Yeah.

NEELY: So he said, “No, I’m going to—I said, I don’t need your help

anyway.” I said, “you don’t?” He said, “Nope.” It was a shame whenthe election came up.44:00

MARSHALL: [Laughs]

NEELY: It was a shame.

MARSHALL: Yeah.

NEELY: In fact, I felt sorry for the man myself.

MARSHALL: Uh-huh.

NEELY: I actually did. ’Cause it looked like, it looked like [whipped]. You

see, it just, it just outright murdered the man politically.

MARSHALL: Uh-huh.

NEELY: ’Cause, uh, I don’t think he got 50 votes.

MARSHALL: Yeah.

NEELY: And I think something like 800 or 900 was cast.

MARSHALL: Uh-huh. Well, tell me now, now, Seymour,

NEELY: Frank Seymour?

MARSHALL: Frank Seymour,

NEELY: Yeah, he dead now.

MARSHALL: Died here, two or three years ago. Frank Seymour, then, in your

recollection, was the first black elected to City Council.

NEELY: Uh, I think Harris Starks was first.

MARSHALL: Well, now, this is the reason I’m asking this question. Somebody

somewhere told me about somebody, and I was trying to think if it was Starks,that told me that there was a black once elected to City Council, but after hewas elected, he was never informed. And he didn’t know that he had beenelected until the end of his term,45:00

NEELY: I didn’t know

MARSHALL: so he never served.

NEELY: I don’t—

MARSHALL: It was a white person that told me that.

NEELY: That could have been, that could have been Harris Starks.

MARSHALL: I believe it was. I believe it was. Now, you see, you’re not the

first Negro that I’ve asked about that but the Negroes don’t seem to knowanything about it.

NEELY: No. If I had, I don’t, uh, I had, it would have been, he would have

been on it. It would be—

MARSHALL: [Laughs]

NEELY: [ ] know somebody if I know somebody.

MARSHALL: Well, this is what they told me, they said this guy was actually

elected but they just decided they weren’t going to say—do anything about itso they didn’t tell him.

NEELY: Yeah.

MARSHALL: And that he never knew it, he didn’t find out about it until after

his term was over.

NEELY: I bet that was Harris Starks.

MARSHALL: That was, they said that, they said that this happened before Seymour.

NEELY: Yes, because you see, we were trying to get Harris Starks in there first.

MARSHALL: Yeah, yeah, uh-huh, uh-huh.

NEELY: Yeah, that was who it was.

MARSHALL: But I—they, they were tricky.

NEELY: Yeah.

MARSHALL: Oh gosh, they were tricky. [Laughs] Ah, shucks. And then of course,

uh, by the time you got uh, by the time you got Washington in, well, and ofcourse, after Seymour, then John Burton got in.

MARSHALL: Francois started? Francois started a newspaper. That was way—that

wasn’t too long ago,

NEELY: No.

MARSHALL: way after, that was after the second World War. And that was somewhere

around 1950, wasn’t it?

NEELY: Right around there. I think I got a copy of that around here somewhere.

MARSHALL: If you can find, you know, I haven’t been able to find a copy.

NEELY: No?

MARSHALL: And I think the old lady, Francois’ wife, is just so evil. I think

what one of the things she did, I think, I think when Francois died, there was astack of papers, in the garage or something, and I think she’s thrown themaway and she never want to admit it. But I haven’t been able to find a copy ofthat paper anywhere. If I just get one copy, see how it looks. So I mean if you,not today, but if you’re ever able to put your hands on a copy, I would liketo see a copy. And then there’s another little paper, that little paper that48:00was put out by this woman, there was a woman that used to put out a little…

NEELY: Miss, Miss, oh, I know

MARSHALL: Simpson.

NEELY: Simpson, yeah.

MARSHALL: Yeah. I haven’t been able to find any of hers, either. [Laughs] But

evidently this is about as close as Ypsilanti has ever come to having a black newspaper.

the Method—the, uh, Baptist choir to Chicago for, for, uh, if they would come53:00out and vote for him during the, during the next election. And he was, PeteBrooks, he was having Pete Brooks sponsor that thing. Well, I knew and I got awind of it. And so they, they, somebody said, “We can get, I think we can getBen Neely to join into that.” So Pete Brooks, Pete accepted their bid becauseI told him, was going to tell him I’ll join for that.

MARSHALL: Uh-huh.

NEELY: ’Cause I wanted to get my group in there and expose what Dick [was].

So we invited Dick down. They didn’t know I was going to expose him.

MARSHALL: Yeah.

NEELY: So we met down Miss Clark’s. And he went down and he outlined his

whole plan. How much he [ ] to give them two hundred dollars, so as, so as toget all the Negroes together so they can take them down and, and vote ’em. Andthen I, then I said, I laid across and I said, “Now, friends, you see what weare up against here. Here it is plain. You’re going to deceive yourself and godown and vote your rights away instead of going down and vote for the thingthat’s going to do you good in the end. It’ll hurt you and the next man toyou. But it’ll help you in the end. Now here’s what, here’s our own man,54:00going to sell us out for a, for a mere two hundred dollars, when there’sthousands of dollars and thousands of ways it could, it can hurt us [and thefact is]” And Dick Elliott’s face was almost purple! And Pete was all, hewas so mad. And he was, he was going to give me a whipping! I told the group,said, “uh-huh. You can’t whip all of us. If you lay a finger on you [then]we’re [going to] fight.”

MARSHALL: Uh-huh.

NEELY: But you see, Pete never did have no political power after that

MARSHALL: Yeah.

NEELY: because I’d exposed him right open in the dirty way. I just laid and

put it all out there.

MARSHALL: Uh.

NEELY: I just laid it, I just come on out and told him,

MARSHALL: Uh-huh.

NEELY: whole truth about it. Oh, I was a dirty rascal sometimes.

MARSHALL: Well, well, well, uh, I guess, I guess I’m, I, not just from talking

to you, but from talking to a lot of different people in town, I’ve gotten asimilar kind of a picture that you’ve got. And that is, [trump], and this isgenerally speaking.

unfortunately, a group of people, and it’s largely dominated by the educated people

NEELY: Yeah.

MARSHALL: who seemingly, in order to push themselves,

NEELY: Yeah.

MARSHALL: they were ready to sell all their people down the road.

NEELY: That’s what I’m talking about.

MARSHALL: And this has been, this has been true here, uh, as, as well as other places.

NEELY: Sure.

MARSHALL: And I guess one of the—and, and this, this leads me to something

else. One of the things that I began to notice when I came here, of course, whenI came here in 69, you know, used to live not many blacks up there.

NEELY: No.

MARSHALL: I came here as a kind of a token black. I knew it when I came. But I

came here as a director of their library, you see, and there were no, there areno black administrators before I got here. But I guess the first thing that Istarted finding out is that the few that they had, except for those who were56:00janitors and a few of those who really weren’t equipped to do anything

NEELY: Mm-hmm.

MARSHALL: They have actually, actually been taken no interest at all in the community.

NEELY: Mm-hmm.

MARSHALL: Not in the black, in the black community. I came out here and started

working on Brown Chapel, and people were just, people were still standing by looking.

NEELY: Mm-hmm.

MARSHALL: They can’t believe it. And I, well, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s,

it’s, it’s, it’s funny to me. But then when I looked at it, and then Ibegan to learn about Francois, and all of that group, you know, of people whowere here, and they often were doing things where whenever they would do thingsit seems that they were always doing before they only…

NEELY: Francois started doing that same thing, after [kit]. I helped Francois,

NEELY: And uh, Francois never did like me after that, because he saw that I, I

saw what happened.

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

NEELY: And, well, I covered up everything and changed it all around,

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

NEELY: I never said anything to him, never told him how dirty I thought he was

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

NEELY: trying to kick my father around after I had helped him so much.

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

NEELY: And, that, but anyway, yeah, he, until my father died, he had a deed to

sell my father’s property and he, he, he knew I was going to call for itsooner or later, so he sent it to me. So…

MARSHALL: Mm.

NEELY: And then of course, I know when the, when him and Gertrude was getting together,

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

NEELY: I never will forget, seeing him out in front of the, of the, the Jew

store, in a car there with [Day], talking.

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

NEELY: Anyway, I haven’t got a thing against him, and I’m for—not into

any kind of a politics now.

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

NEELY: I’m just fading slowly out.

MARSHALL: Wow. I guess you might say everybody—

NEELY: Is doing the same thing.

MARSHALL: does, well, everybody does something as he goes through life. And it

59:00depends upon his point of view whether it is beneficial to others, or whether itis detrimental.

NEELY: Yeah.

MARSHALL: And you always have that pull. Some people are doing things that are detrimental,

NEELY: Mm-hmm.

MARSHALL: and it seems like there’s always another power over here that’s

trying to do the good. And sometimes the detriments are stronger [laughs]. Andthen in other times, it seems over here you, you seem to be winning, but justabout the time it look like you winning, there come along someone, something[guys] that come on over here and try their best to tear your piece up. And Imean even, I mean even here in Ypsilanti, I bet some experiences like that were,you think you’re doing alright, you think you’re doing something—

Segment Synopsis: A.P. Marshall discuss the background and personal history of Benjamin Neely, his family and their arrival in Ypsilanti from Gastonia, North Carolina in 1914. Mr. Neely describes his early memories of the city.

Partial Transcript:NEELY: And uh, but I, but I got to work with a man by the name of Cain. He was a dry cleaner.

MARSHALL: Was that K-E-E-N-E?

NEELY: C-A-I-N.

MARSHALL: Oh, C-A-I-N, OK.

NEELY: Yeah. And it was, he called Cain’s Cleaning and Dying, he and I began to, to work together.

Segment Synopsis: Benjamin Neely describes his self-taught way into the dry cleaning industry and the limitations white racism placed on his getting training and work. Mr. Neely describes how his own Ypsilanti cleaning business opened and failed. Mr. Neely also briefly describes his married life.

Partial Transcript:NEELY: Well, I tell you. The, the idea of unionization started right around until then. Everything out here was unorganized. It was day labor, anything they wanted to pay them. Kicking them around. So the Amalgamated Clothing Workers started to, organizing the laundry workers. And of course they came to the Trojan Laundry first. The Amalgamated Clothing Workers are a white group, a Jewish group, and of course, they started working with the white people down at the laundry. Now, I don’t know this, all I’m doing is down there trying to make a reputation, a name for myself, and putting out a good job. But, they was, they were, they was secretly, that whole group, laundry group—whites, mostly, there was about 10 colored, or, 10 blacks in the whole laundry, rest of ’em was white—and they, they decided that they would organize if they would get, Ben Neely would join them. Yeah. Now how that got out, how they happened to have such an opinion of me, I don’t know.

Segment Synopsis: Mr. Neely discusses joining the Amalgamated Clothing Workers of America and organizing local African-American laundry workers into the union during the 1920s and 1930s.

Partial Transcript:MARSHALL: While you’re getting yourself together, this, just, just the other day, somebody, I mentioned Ben Neely and somebody said, “Well, you need to talk to Ben Neely because Ben Neely was lead—was leading protests around here when the rest of the blacks were perfectly happy with their status quo.” [Laughs] That’s what they said about you. They said, they were talking about blacks in Ypsilanti protesting, and they were just saying that, “Well, Ben Neely was leading protests when nobody else was interested.”

NEELY: That’s right, that’s right. Yep. You see, that was during the time when the depression was on and they wasn’t feeding the people. They’d give the whites what they, anything they wanted, and give the blacks practically nothing. So I decided then what you call outright, put it, put it on the spot. They wanted to brand me as a Communist. But I wasn’t a Communist. Mm-mm, I never was Communist. And I never fought the Communists either. Because he was fighting my battle too. So I’d, I’d accept, I’d accept what help I could get from him

Segment Synopsis: Benjamin Neely describes the situation for African-Americans during the Great Depression and some his organizing. He also retells his run-ins with locals police standing up to segregation in Ypsilanti businesses. .

Partial Transcript:NEELY: ’Course, I, it had become time when we thought it to get, to work politically.

MARSHALL: Oh yeah.

NEELY: Oh yeah. Fellow by the name of Elliot Jordan and me were organizing for to uh, get the Negro to vote properly. Changing him over from the solid Republican to vote either ticket—whichever one serves, serves him best.

Segment Synopsis: Benjamin Neely discusses his work as a leading local activist during the World War Two period and divisions within Ypsilanti's African-American community. Mr. Neely and A.P. Marshall also discuss the case of Harry Starks, a Black man apparently elected to city council, but never informed.

Partial Transcript:MARSHALL: I know what you mean. Um, well, I guess I wanted to ask you something about what’s the effect of this newspaper that uh,

NEELY: Oh, the black—

MARSHALL: Francois started? Francois started a newspaper. That was way—that wasn’t too long ago,

Segment Synopsis: Benjamin Neely describes his views on the class divisions within Ypsilanti's African-American community, including over which political party to vote for. Mr. Neely remembers some of the struggles he has had with other members of Ypsilanti's Black community because of his political opinions.

The interviews, transcripts, indexes, and photographs contained herein may not be reproduced or altered without the permission of the Ypsilanti District Library and the Ypsilanti Historical Society. Short excerpts may be used for the purposes of promoting the archive or the project, or in scholarly work with appropriate references.