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the benchmark for successful treatment is getting a viral load that's consistently around 50 copies, not one that is undetectable on whatever test you've taken.

Various studies on resistance and treatment intensification have shown that a peripheral blood viral load of 50 is where the virus gets put to sleep. No-one can say whether than magic number is 40, 50 or 75. The reason the studies took 50 as the cut-off was because this was the limit of accuracy in routine tests when they were done. No decent studies have shown particular benefit of having a viral load lower than 50, or indeed particular harm if it's marginally above.

A viral load of 55 used to be undetectable. You don't need to be concerned with 55.

i know but thats how i am.. i freak out about everything and go to the worse place - in my mind now i am gonna get full blown aids soon and die..tho my ID doc said today its not even a blip.. its like .03% higher. she aint worried..

the other thing my doc said is i need to drink more water (ugh... so i'll have to pee all day? LOL)

good thing she doesnt know i dont eat fruits.. (yes i know we should esp with the meds etc..) but i dont like.. (yea i know who doesnt like fruits).. i dont.. dont like the taste, texture.. eat it yur still hungry..

good thing she doesnt know i dont eat fruits.. (yes i know we should esp with the meds)

Why? It makes no massive difference.

If your doc is saying this and the water thing in respect of HIV, they's just giving you a hard time.

Obviously fruit and water are healthy but they make no difference to HIV treatment outcomes, and in terms of cancer risk (for that is the fruit eating's reason for being) you need to eat loads for it to count (10 portions of fruit and veg a day, but the thought that a non seller to the general public). Plus what is +5 years at 85?

If your doc is saying this and the water thing in respect of HIV, they's just giving you a hard time.

Obviously fruit and water are healthy but they make no difference to HIV treatment outcomes, and in terms of cancer risk (for that is the fruit eating's reason for being) you need to eat loads for it to count (10 portions of fruit and veg a day, but the thought that a non seller to the general public). Plus what is +5 years at 85?

- matt

i think in over all health.. by the i'm co-infected so minus a few years from the 85

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

If your doc is saying this and the water thing in respect of HIV, they's just giving you a hard time.

Obviously fruit and water are healthy but they make no difference to HIV treatment outcomes, and in terms of cancer risk (for that is the fruit eating's reason for being) you need to eat loads for it to count (10 portions of fruit and veg a day, but the thought that a non seller to the general public). Plus what is +5 years at 85?

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

NOTHING right now.. i have time.. liver in good shape.. LFTs elevated but steady. dont want the C treatments cuz i dont want to be sick for days and i have depression too. hopefully when i NEED to start C treatment something better will have come along..also i dont feel the chances of C treatment is worth the gamble right now.. isnt there like only a 50% or something chance it'll work

NOTHING right now.. i have time.. liver in good shape.. LFTs elevated but steady. dont want the C treatments cuz i dont want to be sick for days and i have depression too. hopefully when i NEED to start C treatment something better will have come along..also i dont feel the chances of C treatment is worth the gamble right now.. isnt there like only a 50% or something chance it'll work

The best time to treat hep C is when you don't "need" to and (if coinfected) when your hiv is under control. It also depends on what hep C genotype you have how well you'll respond to treatment. The side effects aren't nice, but they're well worth putting up with if you can take hep C out of the equation.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

The best time to treat hep C is when you don't "need" to and (if coinfected) when your hiv is under control. It also depends on what hep C genotype you have how well you'll respond to treatment. The side effects aren't nice, but they're well worth putting up with if you can take hep C out of the equation.

thanks.. maybe so.. but two docs (ID and Gastro) concur - about me having time and waiting..

The best time to treat hep C is when you don't "need" to and (if coinfected) when your hiv is under control. It also depends on what hep C genotype you have how well you'll respond to treatment. The side effects aren't nice, but they're well worth putting up with if you can take hep C out of the equation.

i dont mean to start anything ann but why did you suggest this? what is yur medical background? i DID talk to TWO doctors (ID and Gastro) before WE made this decision.

I only suggested it out of first-hand personal experience. It was my doctor's philosophy and it made sense to me. That's why I treated when I did and was lucky enough to get a sustained response. I've been hep C free since 2002, about ten weeks into the start of treatment.

At that point I'd had hep C for eighteen years and hiv for five. Hiv will accelerate hep C progression and I was having many hep C related problems, like joint pain and brain fog.

I suppose the fact that you haven't had hep C for as long as I did - and correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you've been poz for long either - probably means that you are in better shape than I was, so of course even my doctor may have taken a different approach with you.

That's why it's important to always take what is said here as mere suggestions and something to talk over with your own doctor. You have to do what is right for you and your individual situation.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

I only suggested it out of first-hand personal experience. It was my doctor's philosophy and it made sense to me. That's why I treated when I did and was lucky enough to get a sustained response. I've been hep C free since 2002, about ten weeks into the start of treatment.

At that point I'd had hep C for eighteen years and hiv for five. Hiv will accelerate hep C progression and I was having many hep C related problems, like joint pain and brain fog.

I suppose the fact that you haven't had hep C for as long as I did - and correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you've been poz for long either - probably means that you are in better shape than I was, so of course even my doctor may have taken a different approach with you too.

That's why it's important to always take what is said here as suggestions and something to talk over with your own doctor. You have to do what is right for you and your individual situation.

By bad genotype, I take it you mean 1b? I was lucky - I had 3a, one of the easier to treat types. Saying that, my ex also has 3a and he didn't get a sustained response like I did although he does not have hiv. He still has hep C.

I got hep C through sharing needles with my ex in my wild youth. I got hiv the old fashioned way, through sex back in '97.

That site I linked you to is the best one I've ever found for coinfection with either hep. Hope you like it.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

By bad genotype, I take it you mean 1b? I was lucky - I had 3a, one of the easier to treat types. Saying that, my ex also has 3a and he didn't get a sustained response like I did although he does not have hiv. He still has hep C.

I got hep C through sharing needles with my ex in my wild youth. I got hiv the old fashioned way, through sex back in '97.

That site I linked you to is the best one I've ever found for coinfection with either hep. Hope you like it.

i honestly dont remember..just remember them saying it was the bad kind

A viral load of 55 used to be undetectable. You don't need to be concerned with 55.

ok i'm still freakin out about 55... yea i know lol.. but what causes a "blip" i take all my meds as prescribed. the combo i am on has worked before and they genotyped my virus and i can take any of the meds..

ok i'm still freakin out about 55... yea i know lol.. but what causes a "blip" i take all my meds as prescribed. the combo i am on has worked before and they genotyped my virus and i can take any of the meds..

oh and who i Gino Type LOL

Your body is a very dynamic system. You have millions of bacteria and viruses in and outside your body. You eat different foods, drink varying amounts of liquids, absorb different amounts of the medications you intake, experience physical and emotional stressors, are exposed to different types of naturally occurring radiation, get different kinds of rest and sleep. It is amazing that are bodies are as stable as they are. That the amount of a particular kind of virus is going to fluctuate is to be expected.

It is important that you keep track of your health but I learned a long time ago not to live by your lab work. I'm being totally honest when I say a viral load of 55 is perfectly fine.

Your body is a very dynamic system. You have millions of bacteria and viruses in and outside your body. You eat different foods, drink varying amounts of liquids, absorb different amounts of the medications you intake, experience physical and emotional stressors, are exposed to different types of naturally occurring radiation, get different kinds of rest and sleep. It is amazing that are bodies are as stable as they are. That the amount of a particular kind of virus is going to fluctuate is to be expected.

It is important that you keep track of your health but I learned a long time ago not to live by your lab work. I'm being totally honest when I say a viral load of 55 is perfectly fine.

ok ok i'll try not to catastrophize and think omg i'm dying of aids next week.my doc said she aint worried but we'll re-test next month.i'll try not to thin omg it'll be worse lol..

but let me ask a tangential question: do meds (when taken properly) ever just stop working?

but let me ask a tangential question: do meds (when taken properly) ever just stop working?

When taken properly? Rarely. It is highly unlikely that is happening to you.

Neither the tests themselves nor the lab workers who run them are ever going to be 100% perfect. Sometimes blips just happen and aren't usually anything to worry about. In fact viral load tests aren't recommended for diagnostic purposes for this very reason - all too often they come back with false positive results. In other words, they come back registering a viral load that could not possibly exist because the person does not actually have hiv.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

When taken properly? Rarely. It is highly unlikely that is happening to you.

Neither the tests themselves or the lab workers who run them are ever going to be 100% perfect. Sometimes blips just happen and aren't usually anything to worry about. In fact viral load tests aren't recommended for diagnostic purposes for this very reason - all too often they come back with false negative results. In other words, they come back registering a viral load that could not possibly exist because the person does not actually have hiv.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Mainly to put everyone's mind at rest - it's routine, standard of care. The vast majority of the time here in the forums when someone posts about having a blip, they have gone back to undetectable when they test again in a month's time. Particularly in people like yourself who have been adherent.

You said in your OP that this is exactly what happened last year - in fact at the same time of year. Maybe the staff at your lab has hangover issues in December with all the Christmas/end of year parties.

Know what else? I hate to disappoint, but even if by some remote chance - some odd quirk of fate - you are at the beginning of treatment failure, there are still plenty of other meds for you to go on so you're still not going to be dying of aids any time soon. Hope that doesn't interfere with your plans too much.

Hope you manage to put this worry aside and enjoy the holiday tomorrow. Give yourself a break already.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Mainly to put everyone's mind at rest - it's routine, standard of care. The vast majority of the time here in the forums when someone posts about having a blip, they have gone back to undetectable when they test again in a month's time. Particularly in people like yourself who have been adherent.

You said in your OP that this is exactly what happened last year - in fact at the same time of year. Maybe the staff at your lab has hangover issues in December with all the Christmas/end of year parties.

Know what else? I hate to disappoint, but even if by some remote chance - some odd quirk of fate - you are at the beginning of treatment failure, there are still plenty of other meds for you to go on so you're still not going to be dying of aids any time soon. Hope that doesn't interfere with your plans too much.

Hope you manage to put this worry aside and enjoy the holiday tomorrow. Give yourself a break already.

see in my mind that fact she wants me to test again means she is expecting something..yes this happend last year but only 48 up to 50 not 55nice try i get tested beginning of the month not endi have been poz since 4-2004 and always been on meds and they geno typed the virus and (suppoedly) any meds will work for me. (why these arent working anymore dunno..) was on a atripla but that has psych side effex.. (i'm bipolar, depression and anxiety (no really we couldnt tell LOL) and severe ADHD. (in addition to the hiv and hep) i'm totally ok with this but tmrw i'll be alone - prolly go to a movie .. i'd rather do that an hang out with my homophobic famlly.. (did you know i'm going to hell for being gay and hiv and hep is god punishing me for being gay)..i hope you know am partly joking about the dying of aids thing but i am very concerned abut the 55 and needing to retest

i'm freaking over the 55i'm supposed to have elective surgery.. freaking out about not waking up gen anes (yes i know its very safe blah blah)i want to do yoga to help with the anxiety and depression - freaking out that if i go to a class.. i wont know what to do - never did it before in my life - and afraid i will just be left standing there not knowing what to do.

i want to do yoga to help with the anxiety and depression - freaking out that if i go to a class.. i wont know what to do - never did it before in my life - and afraid i will just be left standing there not knowing what to do.

Where are you? Look into the yoga centers where you live in order to find one that's suitable for a beginner. Avoid ones that are merely aerobics with a little bit of yoga "window-dressing" (for example those at most gyms.) Serious yoga centers often have "pre-beginner" or "gentle" classes which might be a good place to start. Another idea might be first to get a book about yoga so that when you go into an actual class you'll already have a basic idea of what to expect.

Another good idea is to use the first lesson or two simply to sit and watch instead of trying it yourself. It makes no sense for a teacher to say "watch me and do what I do" if the first step involves getting into a position from which you can no longer see what the teacher is doing! Remember the whole idea of yoga is to reduce stress. To stress out about the fact that you are not doing the postures properly (something I often find myself doing) is to defeat the purpose!

if all this is a no worry not a prob, why does doc want to me re-test next month instead of my usual 3 months?

probably to quell the anxieties of an angst-ridden patient (that would be YOU LOL )

If you plan to live and deal with HIV very long, you're going to have to realize that a one-off test result means nothing (especially in cd4s, but really in either test). No one is going to die from a blip of 5,000; but the likelihood of a lab error sending back that result is something to always consider. If you have 3 viral load tests in a row going up then you'd have the right to call that a "blip"; but going up <10 in one test means absolutely nothing.

ah, I remember the days long ago (hmm, about two years ago ) when anything under 100 was considered undetectable. Back in those days, I went through 3 blips (over 1500) in 2 yrs and the doc and I didn't hardly bat an eye.

Hang in there, I can guarantee you that your 7-pt "blip" isn't going to ruin Christmas or New Years for you (unless you let it LOL).

ignoring my own advice as the ComputerTutor (my job/business over the last 6 yrs; think BestBuy's Geek Squad but a helluvalot cheaper), I didn't compose my response offline, and with a session time-out and click of the back button, whoops! I lost the reply I had typed. Plus I had a really big reply to type up in another thread. LOL So here goes again:

You mean all the jagged lines in the first half of my chart? Umm, harsher meds, quitting meds from terrible side effects, growing resistance, waiting on new meds to become available, OIs, depression/PSTD from losing friends and the death of my partner - you know, all the usual crap that came from getting an AIDS diagnosis in the later 80s - early 90s.

Those jumps in my viral load don't really count as "blips" though as those were actual treatment failures - or more accurately "treatment quits". You see in the early days of treating AIDS, more than nowadays, sometimes a patient had to consider QUALITY of life over QUANTITY of life. Those are always hard decisions not made lightly. Thank goodness that sort of issue rarely happens to people who have been able to start on HAART and/or start earlier than before becoming very sick.

In discussing my blips, I would instead refer you to this enlarged graph of the last 5 years. You see, it took me over 10+ years to first reach undetectable and to see my cd4s reach over 200. During these last 5 years of so then, my counts have been nearly stable compared to those early years (thanks to reyataz/norvir/videx! w00t!) Oddly proving that stress is not always the factor one thinks (tell that to my re-occuring herpes zoster outbreak LOL), my numbers have held most stable and at their highest levels (barely over 300 cd4 results three times now in 20 years of testing!) starting from when my late second partner went into the hospital and passed away 69 days later. I kept expecting the stress to show up on the graph with some more jaggy lines; but instead I ended up with just this series of small blips which are actually hard to see in that graph showing my entire history.see how the enlarged area actually looks pretty flat here in the last half of the full graph? crazy huh? But that high green line (cd4 between 240 and 311) and low nearly flat red line (viral load near undetectable) is the way a good graph should look.

So you can see, in the enlargement/selected years of just the past 5 years, that I have had a few true blips (5600, 3900, 2500, etc) going on. You'll also notice that there are several months - with 2-4 undetectable results - between those blips. That kind of data does not scream treatment failure; but rather watch and monitor. Though each blip is of concern, the following testing trend was back to undetectable. As I have stayed adherent to these better meds, there never was a satisfactory reason for these blips.

Needless to say having seen blips of over 1000 (and lived to tell about it LOL), your 7-pt rise barely over 50 (especially when through the years I've seen undetectable be defined as 100 to 75 to 50 and now coming up on 20) doesn't seem like anything to worry about at all.

to get the awesome graph first I plug in my numbers into the AidsMeds "Graph My Labs" tool, then I graph my labs.next I take a screen shot, resize it, and upload it to a photobucket acctthen I insert the image (using the IMG tag) here under my profile information into my sig line.

if you need any help, ie detailed instructions, on any of that, let me know (and yes I saw the question you posted about the messed up graph LOL) and the ComputerTutor will write them up (offline of course, so as not to lose them in a time-out issue again) and will fire them off to you.