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Take care of your animals, share all the love you can give with them, and help others however you see fit. Then go home, happy in the knowledge that you've made a difference. Isn't that really what it's all about? This is how the Crusades began, I bet... Diversity is one of the best things about this board, it's not all sniveling whiners, it's not all holier-than-thou pros, it's not divided by social class, it's just a group of people who love their horses. Embrace that, or at least accept it. Otherwise, go somewhere else. If you want everyone to agree on something, go to the PETA BB (or the anti-PETA BB) I'm sure they're out there.

Well, Winglet, that's nice, but this is more than a diversity is cool issue, because:

the cash horselovers send to PETA is being questioned by the FBI AND the Congress of the United States AND by consumer advocate groups such as the Center for Consumer Freedom.

Three groups right there are suspicious of how ELF is using that money no matter what PETA says.

"But the Center for Consumer Freedom says PETA donations to the ELF, even if intended to be used for lawful purposes, still fund a terrorist organization.

"If PETA had used its tax-expemt donations from the public to make a sizable gift to Al Qaeda, Hamas or the Irish Republican Army, we would not be having a discussion about whether or not it is technically possible to make a donation to terrorists without intending the funds be used to conduct terrorism," wrote Richard Berman, executive director of the D.C.-based advocacy group, in a letter to McInnis."

Winglet, I only care what people make when they get salaries from tax-exempt organizations, because then as an American taxpayer I am subsidizing their salary. And, as a consumer, I don't really get the logic of donating my money to a cause when their directors all make way more than I do.

Remember ELF burned 70 years of forestry research in a PA when they torched a building. That's a lot of blood sweat and tears (& bug bites!). Not to mention that those kinds of long-term data sets are our best chance to understand how particular ecosystems work and how climate change and other stressors effect every living being on earth. They are few and far between.

In the book 1,001 Ways To Save The Planet it is quoted that an acre of rain forest is chopped down every second. Let's check the numbers:
1 acre=1 Second
60 seconds per minute= 60 acres per minute
1 hour is 60 minutes= 3600 acres per hour
24 hours in one day= 86,400 acres per day
365 days per year=31,536,000 per year.
Those are pretty big numbers for anything. Now I want you to consider this: the book was written in 1990. By her figures we have lost
378,432,000 acres of rain forest by now...
last I heard the rain forest is still around though.
Makes you think about statistics eh?

I guess what I'm saying is that PeTA (or any ar/aw org that had a few trust issues) wouldn't have a problem with fixing thier own statistics to "show" where thier (YOUR!!) money went to, including that $5000 hammer they gave to "M. Munny". The only stats I believe when it comes to where my money goes are the ones I make myself from Quicken. Think about these numbers the next time you hear a statistic (from ANYONE). Definitly a case for a local org, rather than a nat'l because people are so easily corrupted. I give money to local charity. I don't even give to Hooved Animal Humane Society anymore for personal reasons. You can always look at it this way: anyone who works is already donating every 2 weeks when they get paid.

"I ain't got a dime but what I got is mine; I ain't rich, but Lord, I'm free."

Because at the point where you can comprehend how incomprehensible it all is, you\'re about as smart as you need to be. - Trudy The Search For Signs....

My point was that if you doubt where the money is going, don't give it to them. If someone else has too much money on their hands, it's their business what they want to blow it on.
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Yes, it is their business. But when the groups they give it to blow up SUVs, set fire to forestry research stations & ski resorts, it BECOMES my business. People are going to get killed soon. When the FBI and Congress get involved, and they are getting involved, it becomes the business of every citizen to sit up and take notice.

It's hard to believe people learn that the FBI, Congress, and consumer advocate groups are concerned about this money and they just go on merrily writing checks to these groups and other people keep saying fine by me. Yes, you're right, we are all free to give our money to whomever we wish and I would never want that to stop. What amazes me is that now that we've learned where it goes, people are still happy writing those checks. Free to do it yes, and I won't stop them, but at least admit what you're buying.

P.S. LOVE that George Bush quote. That was hilarious! In a way you made the PETA-donating people sound just like him: they mean well, but they are being fooled.

I think perhaps you've never seen PETA or HSUS fund raising materials. They are designed to make you think you are supporting (in the case of HSUS) shelter, spay neuter, etc. programs. In reality, they don't do any of that. Their fund raising materials are extremely misleading and are not accurate representations of where the money is going.

The Washington Post (and maybe the WSJ - I can't remember) did a huge story on HSUS and where the money was and wasn't going a few years back. It's fine to pay qualified President's and CEOs of for-profit organizations like they folks are paid. It's awful and actually partially frauduant in their case to do so as they were.

And yes, you are right, it is extremely important for those giving to charities to know and understand where their money is going before they give.

On another thread I was criticized for saying that I support PETA. After reading AnneFS's well-stated opinions, and others who posted, I'll say that it's made me re-think my position.

However, I will say that I NEVER believed my PETA money was going to direct "save the animals" programs. The only reason I ever gave them money was because I believe they perform a very important function --

They get people's attention about animal rights/welfare/protection. I think that's immensely valuable. The only reason they're ridiculous is because that's what it takes to get the media to cover these issues (yes, it's a general statement), and for the average, non-aware person to sit up and take notice and start to THINK -- that's all I ask.

There are times when horseback riding conflicts with some of the beliefs that I support. Same for pet "ownership." I'm an evolving project, like we all are.

My "friends" like to poke fun at me and point out the inconsistency in my ideals about the treatment of animals versus my "exploitation" of horses. That's OK, it makes me think. Maybe one day I will decide that it's unfair to the horse. That kind of introspection SHOULD take place. So I have no fears that "animal right-ists" will "ruin" my sport.

Putting aside all animals in their current situations and going on to a broader concept, I don't think humans have a right to mess with nature and put any animal in lab situations, factory farming, etc. Yes, an animal may meet a horrible, painful death as part of the food chain in the wild, but you know what? . . .

I HAVE THE ABILITY AND THE CHOICE TO ABSTAIN FROM DOING THINGS I BELIEVE CONTRIBUTE TO SUFFERING . . .

Therefore, I don't eat meat, fish, poultry, always for reasons revolving between "AR," the environment and my health. I've changed a lot of my lifestyle practices. I don't subscribe to the "but we treat them nice" camp, or the "that's the way it's always been" camp. I don't condemn those who do, but I would appreciate it if meat-eaters thought about their practice every once in a while. (By the way, I liked whoever's comment about the voles, mice, etc. killed in harvesting!)

I can't escape the fact that I'm part of the food chain, but I can control the amount of needless suffering I inflict, directly or indirectly. The field mice, voles, etc. at least hopefully lived out a life as they evolved to live it; not confined in tiny battery cages and subjected to de-beaking, or whatever most farming methods/labs/etc. do to animals.

Just a slice of my current place on the philosophical evolutionary scale. I hope to kep up with this topic, but my schedule makes it hard! Thanks especially to Hoodoo for standing up for your beliefs! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

Industrial farming came into being, because ever increasing numbers of people live in the city and suburbs where they can't or won't keep aniamls like chickens.

The farmers have to find a way to produce ever increasing amounts of food for less and less money, while at the same time still feed their own families and pay their mortgages and loans.
As long as a dozend eggs costs under a dollar, there will be hens in batteries laying eggs. The size comes from long years of experience, any larger, and they hack each other to death, any smaller and they don't lay any eggs...

The farmers have to use chemicals because they don't make enough as it is, they can't pay a bunch of people picking weeds...

Research...
I have to admit, I carrye a douple standart, and for most parts I am OK with it!
I would not stick any of my pets into a lab, but I sure enjoy the benefits of the results.
Heartworm prevention, one-point flea treatments and - last but not least - vaccinations, or I would ahve had to put both my dogs down a few years back when they found a rabied bat! And yeah, let's not forget the Veterinarians who gave them boosters and tried to cheer me up.

I hate the thought of where we would be without it. Would you like to be the one telling a parent:"Well, maybe we could treat your baby's ailment, but a bunch of rats are more important!" ?!

I know folks who never look at the dog they keep teethered in the yard or let their *pets* starve.
More dispicable than research.

I think, it is not right to be critizising *Industrial Farming* while enjoying cheap grosseries. And please remember, the stores can sell you the stuff 2 for the prize of one and still make money that does not leave much for the farm.

I have nothing against farmers: they're victims of our current societal attitudes and lifestyle practices. It's the demand and unwillingness to change habits and expectations that fuels factory farming. Also, the lack of objection from the consumer. This is a big-picture issue, covering civilization in general. I, for one, believe most of our products are far too cheap dollar-wise; the difference is made up in the cost to animals, our environment, our health, exploitation of human labor, etc.

As for lab testing, I don't feel my life is more important than any other creature's. Just my opinion. I know lots of people justify testing by valuing human lives over animals', but I don't think one is more valuable than another. I recognize it's a tough issue; all we can do is share opinions. I think that if our civilization tries, alternative testing means can be found, though, but I honestly haven't had time to research greatly into this topic.

Yes, by using almost everything in society today (medicine, cosmetics, etc.), I am benefiting from the lives of past lab animals. I can't extract myself from this very easily without practically dropping out of society completely -- even non-animal tested stuff probably enjoys a former base of animal research. But I can maybe have input as to where we go from here.

I don't trust anyone else to look after my mottley crew of dogs cat and worn out horses. sorry pt.You'LL just have to go down with the rest.See you Monday. tar rah. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

fernie fox
"I have lived my life-it is nearly done-.I have played the game all round;But I freely admit that the best of my fun I owe it to Horse and Hound".

\"I have lived my life-it is nearly done-.I have played the game all round;But I freely admit that the best of my fun I owe it to Horse and Hound\".

Interesting........Many animals will fight to the death to protect their lives while others would kill and eat you if given the chance. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

Nice to know that if we're ever on a Titanic, you won't object when I grab the last lifejacket.
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No, I won't, because it was probably made somehow by exploiting animals (actually, I wouldn't even be on the Titanic! Think of the environmental degredation that a cruise ship causes to the little fishes' environment!) I'll wait to connect with a dolphin soulmate to be rescued! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]