Just in our area alone I know of a St. David's Roman Catholic Church, Our Lady Help of Christians Roman Catholic Church, St. Hillarys Roman Catholic Church, Immaculate Conception Roman Catholic Church, St. James [the Greater] Roman Catholic Church, St. Albert the Great Roman Catholic Church. All using the term Roman in their name and are chartered as such so they dont think it a bad thing.

Folks from this area are from the old school and refer to themselves as Roman Catholics.

Same here. In the old Austro-Hungarian realm, where east and west 'touched' each other, it was common for there to be villages, towns and cities with Latin-rite and Eastern-rite Catholic Churches. Those who followed the Greek rubrics and traditions were hence - Greek Catholic and those who were western Catholics were - Roman Catholic. Simple.

This is a fairly minor question, but it doesn't seem to fit an existing thread, so I figured I would go off the handle and start yet another thread ...

A lot of you refer to Latin Catholics as Roman Catholics. I have, at various times, heard various and sundry explanations for this; but is there a standard explanation?

This is a fairly minor answer, but the ecclesiology of the Roman Catholic communion of which all in union with the Vatican are a part revolves around Rome. Your supposed catholicity is verified by your union with Rome, not Rome's union with Bkerke, Alqosh, Antioch, etc. So, forgive me, but it seems silly to me to protest calling the Vatican-united "Roman Catholic" when the reality of your existence is so heavily tilted toward Rome in the first place. If all (Latins, Byzantines, Chaldeans, Maronites, etc.) treat the Roman Pope as their head, then they are Romans in that sense even if they follow another liturgical custom that differs from that of the standard Latin mass.

Just in our area alone I know of a St. David's Roman Catholic Church, Our Lady Help of Christians Roman Catholic Church, St. Hillarys Roman Catholic Church, Immaculate Conception Roman Catholic Church, St. James [the Greater] Roman Catholic Church, St. Albert the Great Roman Catholic Church. All using the term Roman in their name and are chartered as such so they dont think it a bad thing.

Folks from this area are from the old school and refer to themselves as Roman Catholics.

Same here. In the old Austro-Hungarian realm, where east and west 'touched' each other, it was common for there to be villages, towns and cities with Latin-rite and Eastern-rite Catholic Churches. Those who followed the Greek rubrics and traditions were hence - Greek Catholic and those who were western Catholics were - Roman Catholic. Simple.

This is true in Romania and yet it's also not entirely accurate. For instance in my wife's home town there is one church described as Romano-Catolica and one Greco-Catolica, which at first glance would appear to back up what you're saying until you realise that catolic is only ever used to describe those that I refer to as Roman Catholic. The Catholic Church of the Creed is Biserica Soborniceasca not Catolica.

If I were to accurately translate, therefore, the descriptions of those two churches into English it would be much more appropriate if I said Roman (perhaps Latin, to avoid the odd doubling) Roman Catholic and Greek Roman Catholic. If you were to look up the word catolic in a Romanian dictionary such as the DEX you'd find the definition to be clearly and only pertaining to those in communion with Rome.

James

« Last Edit: June 26, 2012, 08:47:01 AM by jmbejdl »

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We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos

When I first discovered the history of the term "Roman Catholic", its usage bothered me. As I understand it, the communion to which I belong is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Hence, it would seem best to refer the the Church as just "Catholic". However, my interaction with Byzantine and other Eastern Catholics modified my view. Since not all of them practice the traditions of Rome, I have felt, at times, that it would be appropriate to refer to the "Latin Church" either as Latins or Romans, and the other Churches by their specific names, such as the "Ruthenian Catholic Church". My interaction with Eastern Orthodox Christians has modified my view further. Ridiculous debates, debates in which I have participated willfully, have lead me to believe that the whole discussion over names is simply pointless. There are those who, no matter what, will call catholics "papists" or who will refer to the Catholic Church as "The Vatican" (which is nothing but nonsense born of prejudice). However, I choose not to further particapte in games with those whose only goal in life is to express biggotry against Christ's Bride. So call us "Catholics;" call us "Romanists;" call us whatever you please. It matters little to those who believe that the churches in communion with Rome form the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church founded by Jesus Christ.Battles about what we call ourselves and what some outside our communion call us, do little to save souls.

So, forgive me, but it seems silly to me to protest calling the Vatican-united "Roman Catholic" when the reality of your existence is so heavily tilted toward Rome in the first place.

Thing is, some Orthodox would complain if I were to refer to everyone in communion with the Pope as "the Roman Catholic Church", but other Orthodox would complain if I were to refer to everyone in communion with the Pope as "the Catholic Church". Kind of a catch-22.

The fact that some use "Roman Catholic Church" to mean only the Latin Church just makes things worse.

So, forgive me, but it seems silly to me to protest calling the Vatican-united "Roman Catholic" when the reality of your existence is so heavily tilted toward Rome in the first place.

Thing is, some Orthodox would complain if I were to refer to everyone in communion with the Pope as "the Roman Catholic Church", but other Orthodox would complain if I were to refer to everyone in communion with the Pope as "the Catholic Church". Kind of a catch-22.

The fact that some use "Roman Catholic Church" to mean only the Latin Church just makes things worse.

“You can please some none of the people Orthodox all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people any of the Orthodox all of the time”.

Why even concern yourself with what Orthodox call us? Who cares?? If you're grounded in your faith you and others with whom you share communion know what and who you are.

Maybe one day, when we are all re-united with each other, in Christ, all divisions between and amongst Catholics and Orthodox will fall away and the name "Catholic", "Orthodox", or whatever will become totally irrelevant.

The Eastern Orthodox Church has always considered the Roman Catholic Church the "Church of Rome," and all the "rites" associated with His Holiness the Pope of Rome, not-with-standing the regions of its geographic embrace. And much of the Orthodox Church accepts its claim to universal (Catholic) jurisdiction, and the Orthodox concept that its teachings embrace all matters Catholic

Do you consider the Byzantine rite to be one of the rites associated with the Pope? That would seem pretty strange if you did, considering that's the rite that most Orthodox use.

Yes, I consider the "Byzantine Rite," the "Byzantine Rite of the Roman Catholic Church," as it is a rite under the Pope of Rome.

The Eastern Orthodox Church has always considered the Roman Catholic Chrurch the "Church of Rome," and all the "rites" associated with His Holiness the Pope of Rome, not-with-standing the regions of its geographic embrace. And much of the Orthodox Church acceopts its claim to universal (Catholic) jurisdiction, and the Orthodox consept that its teachings embrace all matters Catholic

Eastern Orthodox? East of what?

If the Roman Catholic Church gets their title, I demand my church be called the Orthodox Catholic Church, or just the Orthodox Church. You know, it's ACTUAL name.

No doubt, the Orthodox Church is the Orthodox Catholic Church; the Ecumenical Synods of the first millennium refer to the Church as both the Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church.

But, the Orthodox Church is the Church of the East; it was founded on Earth in Jerusalem, thus, our church altar's face East; from Alexandria to Moscow, the Orthodox Church is the Church of the East, though it is Catholic and is "in all the world."

Use of the preface "Eastern" is a reaction to the 17th century or so practice initiated by the revolutionary movements of the Orthodox who were under Ottoman suppression and began use of their ethnicity in connection with their Orthodox Churches, i.e. Romanian, Bulgarian, Greek, etc., to promote their ethnicity, their individuality within the Ottoman Empire. The Church's use of Eastern was a manner of demonstrating the oneness of the Orthodox Churches. Somewhere at the Ecumenical Patriarchate, there is an old sign that states in Greek "Anatolikien Orthodoxie Ecclesia," "Eastern [or Anatolian, Oriental] Orthodox Church." But as Fr. John Meyendorff has written, ask any Orthodox Christians in these areas to which religion they adhere, the answer in their ethnic tong is "I am Orthodox."

Note too, the Orthodox Church is as much "Apostolic" as it is "Catholic."

I do not take issue with a parish referring to itself as "Orthodox Catholic," because it is both "Orthodox" and "Catholic," but our Church is the "Eastern Orthodox Christian Church."

The Eastern Orthodox Church has always considered the Roman Catholic Church the "Church of Rome," and all the "rites" associated with His Holiness the Pope of Rome, not-with-standing the regions of its geographic embrace. And much of the Orthodox Church accepts its claim to universal (Catholic) jurisdiction, and the Orthodox concept that its teachings embrace all matters Catholic

Do you consider the Byzantine rite to be one of the rites associated with the Pope? That would seem pretty strange if you did, considering that's the rite that most Orthodox use.

Yes, I consider the "Byzantine Rite," the "Byzantine Rite of the Roman Catholic Church," as it is a rite under the Pope of Rome.

Because it is done differently (Latinized) in communion with Rome than it is done in Orthodoxy?

Well, if you talk to them but disregard what they say back, that's not much of a conversation.

You only need disregard what they call you. And any other irrelevancies.

If the quality or depth of your conversation depends on whether or not you *care* what they call you, or if the conversation becomes solely *about* what they call you, then Schultz has got it pegged in his post above.

There is no big deal. Peter J needs to get off the internet and stop worrying about the contentious ramblings some mouthbreather sitting in front of a computer surrounded by icons and/or "religious paintings" in his parents' basement (whether in reality or because such a person hasn't matured past adolescence). The only people who are offended by or insist on using the term "Roman Catholic" to differentiate it from the term "Orthodox Catholic" are people who need to shut up, grow up, grow a pair, and go live life and pray instead of reading about both.

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"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

So, forgive me, but it seems silly to me to protest calling the Vatican-united "Roman Catholic" when the reality of your existence is so heavily tilted toward Rome in the first place.

Thing is, some Orthodox would complain if I were to refer to everyone in communion with the Pope as "the Roman Catholic Church", but other Orthodox would complain if I were to refer to everyone in communion with the Pope as "the Catholic Church". Kind of a catch-22.

The fact that some use "Roman Catholic Church" to mean only the Latin Church just makes things worse.

I don't know what you're talking about. I don't know who these Orthodox are who would complain about you referring to yourselves as the "Roman Catholic Church" (that's what literally every Orthodox person who I personally knows calls you, to the extent that the RCC comes up in our conversations, which is almost never). That's stupid. They're probably pedants and I would ignore them, as J Michael has counseled you to.

For my part, I absolutely do not care what you or any other non-Orthodox would call me. "Monophysite", for instance, is just a handy way for me to know that I can immediately stop listening to you (really, I almost want to thank people who use that term; it's saved me a lot of time), and anything else ("schismatic", "heretic", "Nileist", etc. ) is just icing on the 'monophysites and Eutychians and bears, oh my!" crazy cake. There are legitimate and understandable differences that may be the cause of our friction. This arguing over what we officially or morally should be obliged to refer to the others' churches as is not one of those things that should be so important. The Roman Catholic Church is not Orthodox in its faith, and that's all that I care about. You can call yourselves the most Truest of the True Christian Fullness of Truth Church of Rome and the Whole Universe Under the Bestest, Most Infallible King Pope of the World Ever, and I'd still say "hmm...yeah, but they're un-Orthodox, so anything that they claim is trumped by that fact." If you really believe in Roman Catholic claims, you should be able to say something similar about others, and hence not worry about such silly things.

There is no big deal. Peter J needs to get off the internet and stop worrying about the contentious ramblings some mouthbreather sitting in front of a computer surrounded by icons and/or "religious paintings" in his parents' basement (whether in reality or because such a person hasn't matured past adolescence). The only people who are offended by or insist on using the term "Roman Catholic" to differentiate it from the term "Orthodox Catholic" are people who need to shut up, grow up, grow a pair, and go live life and pray instead of reading about both.

There is no big deal. Peter J needs to get off the internet and stop worrying about the contentious ramblings some mouthbreather sitting in front of a computer surrounded by icons and/or "religious paintings" in his parents' basement (whether in reality or because such a person hasn't matured past adolescence). The only people who are offended by or insist on using the term "Roman Catholic" to differentiate it from the term "Orthodox Catholic" are people who need to shut up, grow up, grow a pair, and go live life and pray instead of reading about both.

You're on a roll, today, Schultz! Thanks for making my day!

Interesting. I guess I never fully comprehended your opinion of me before.

So, forgive me, but it seems silly to me to protest calling the Vatican-united "Roman Catholic" when the reality of your existence is so heavily tilted toward Rome in the first place.

Thing is, some Orthodox would complain if I were to refer to everyone in communion with the Pope as "the Roman Catholic Church", but other Orthodox would complain if I were to refer to everyone in communion with the Pope as "the Catholic Church". Kind of a catch-22.

The fact that some use "Roman Catholic Church" to mean only the Latin Church just makes things worse.

I don't know what you're talking about. I don't know who these Orthodox are who would complain about you referring to yourselves as the "Roman Catholic Church" (that's what literally every Orthodox person who I personally knows calls you, to the extent that the RCC comes up in our conversations, which is almost never). That's stupid. They're probably pedants and I would ignore them, as J Michael has counseled you to.

What I said was that some Orthodox would complain if I were to refer to everyone in communion with the Pope as "the Roman Catholic Church". And it's true, they would.

Schultz is always on a roll. He's generally right about things (see: this thread), and his signature constantly cracks me up (Abp. Fulton Sheen was a favorite of mine when I was RC, and that really hasn't changed now that I'm Orthodox). What's not to like?

There is no big deal. Peter J needs to get off the internet and stop worrying about the contentious ramblings some mouthbreather sitting in front of a computer surrounded by icons and/or "religious paintings" in his parents' basement (whether in reality or because such a person hasn't matured past adolescence). The only people who are offended by or insist on using the term "Roman Catholic" to differentiate it from the term "Orthodox Catholic" are people who need to shut up, grow up, grow a pair, and go live life and pray instead of reading about both.

You're on a roll, today, Schultz! Thanks for making my day!

Interesting. I guess I never fully comprehended your opinion of me before.

Schultz is always on a roll. He's generally right about things (see: this thread), and his signature constantly cracks me up (Abp. Fulton Sheen was a favorite of mine when I was RC, and that really hasn't changed now that I'm Orthodox). What's not to like?

Schultz is always on a roll. He's generally right about things (see: this thread), and his signature constantly cracks me up (Abp. Fulton Sheen was a favorite of mine when I was RC, and that really hasn't changed now that I'm Orthodox). What's not to like?

There's nothing not to like !

Even when he's putting me in my place, Shultz is the top five when it comes to reasonable posters here at oc.net. I respect him quite a bit.

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

There is no big deal. Peter J needs to get off the internet and stop worrying about the contentious ramblings some mouthbreather sitting in front of a computer surrounded by icons and/or "religious paintings" in his parents' basement (whether in reality or because such a person hasn't matured past adolescence). The only people who are offended by or insist on using the term "Roman Catholic" to differentiate it from the term "Orthodox Catholic" are people who need to shut up, grow up, grow a pair, and go live life and pray instead of reading about both.

Harsh. At a meeting at church a priest asked what our religious backgrounds were. I said "Catholic" and was corrected by the priest. Everyone else who used to be Catholic said "Roman Catholic." And I can guarantee I'm far closer to your description than any of them or the priest.

Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

No doubt, the Orthodox Church is the Orthodox Catholic Church; the Ecumenical Synods of the first millennium refer to the Church as both the Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church.

But, the Orthodox Church is the Church of the East; it was founded on Earth in Jerusalem, thus, our church altar's face East; from Alexandria to Moscow, the Orthodox Church is the Church of the East, though it is Catholic and is "in all the world."

Use of the preface "Eastern" is a reaction to the 17th century or so practice initiated by the revolutionary movements of the Orthodox who were under Ottoman suppression and began use of their ethnicity in connection with their Orthodox Churches, i.e. Romanian, Bulgarian, Greek, etc., to promote their ethnicity, their individuality within the Ottoman Empire. The Church's use of Eastern was a manner of demonstrating the oneness of the Orthodox Churches. Somewhere at the Ecumenical Patriarchate, there is an old sign that states in Greek "Anatolikien Orthodoxie Ecclesia," "Eastern [or Anatolian, Oriental] Orthodox Church." But as Fr. John Meyendorff has written, ask any Orthodox Christians in these areas to which religion they adhere, the answer in their ethnic tong is "I am Orthodox."

Note too, the Orthodox Church is as much "Apostolic" as it is "Catholic."

I do not take issue with a parish referring to itself as "Orthodox Catholic," because it is both "Orthodox" and "Catholic," but our Church is the "Eastern Orthodox Christian Church."

Reaction to a 17th Century practice?

Point proven, I'll stick to being called the Catholic Church, or the Orthodox Catholic Church.

Not this new modern hooballoo, not to mention the Eastern moniker is so exclusive to us Westerners.

If I use Roman Catholic or RC I mean all of those in communion with Rome regardless of rite. The only reason I would use Latin Catholic is if it was important that I make distinctions based on rite. I'll never refer to Roman Catholics as just Catholic because from my point of view the Catholic Church is Orthodox.

James

In my experience, however, many if not most of the times that "Roman Catholic" is used on this forum, it is understood to mean only those in the Latin Church. In fact, the heading of this section says

Quote

Discussion of issues which unite and divide the Orthodox Church and the Roman/Eastern Catholic churches (in Communion with Rome).

Just in our area alone I know of a St. David's Roman Catholic Church, Our Lady Help of Christians Roman Catholic Church, St. Hillarys Roman Catholic Church, Immaculate Conception Roman Catholic Church, St. James [the Greater] Roman Catholic Church, St. Albert the Great Roman Catholic Church. All using the term Roman in their name and are chartered as such so they dont think it a bad thing.

Folks from this area are from the old school and refer to themselves as Roman Catholics.

C'mon guys. Get real.

I am a Byzantine Catholic in communion with the papal Church whose papal see is in Rome. Years ago I was a Roman Catholic, a Catholic of the Roman Rite.

Converts nonwithstanding: Most Orthodox parishes are still pretty ethnic and reflect Eastern European, Eastern Mediterranian, Middle Eastern ethnicities. However, converts from all walks of life have changed the complexion somewhat but the not to any great extent, in my experience of 10yrs in the Church. Most changes are in the OCA parishes.

I don't like the term "Roman Catholic" because it was invented by Anglicans in an attempt to claim that their catholicity is on par with ours. The Anglicans say "we're Anglo Catholic and you're 'Roman Catholic'." Nope. Sorry. Doesn't work that way. You were Catholic. You broke away from the Catholic Church. Of course they are welcome to believe whatever they want, but this is the reason why many of us find the term "Roman Catholic" offensive. It is attempting to set their catholicity as equal to ours, which we will never accept. We believe we are the Catholic Church only...if we did not, then we would belong to a different church, but we do not...nor do we subscribe to branch theory.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.