meat0918:Draco was just a child, and his father used his child to save his own hide.

It has been a while but it is my recollection that Draco was actually saving his family. If my memory serves, the Mafloy family(Lucius, Narcissa and Draco) was basically on the brink of being executed by V for various failures. Draco was put in the position of having to save them. V didn't really expect him to successful engineer a means of getting through Hogwartz defenses. Lucius, I think, came to realize that V was much more dangerous than he initially believed and was trying to save his family from V but had to rely on his son to do so.

Gergesa:meat0918: Draco was just a child, and his father used his child to save his own hide.

It has been a while but it is my recollection that Draco was actually saving his family. If my memory serves, the Mafloy family(Lucius, Narcissa and Draco) was basically on the brink of being executed by V for various failures. Draco was put in the position of having to save them. V didn't really expect him to successful engineer a means of getting through Hogwartz defenses. Lucius, I think, came to realize that V was much more dangerous than he initially believed and was trying to save his family from V but had to rely on his son to do so.

And narcissa hated him for it, and Draco couldn't handle the pressure. For all his bark, Draco was not actually evil.

Yeah, Draco just wanted to prove himself, really. He never had it in him. Even when he became a Death Eater to try and show everyone how tough he was, he still couldn't even carry out the task of killing Dumbledore, which Dumbledore was well aware of anyway. He could still see the good in Draco. I think Draco just wanted everything back the way things were, with a stable and happy family, but deep down knew siding with Voldemort was never going to be the means to that end anyway. But he had no choice. Once Voldemort died he seemed to pretty much hide away and the family kept to themselves. It's telling that Draco and Harry ended up in much the same way - married with kids (or one kid, in Draco's case). That's all Draco really wanted - a quiet, stable home life.

lyndsayj:Yeah, Draco just wanted to prove himself, really. He never had it in him. Even when he became a Death Eater to try and show everyone how tough he was, he still couldn't even carry out the task of killing Dumbledore, which Dumbledore was well aware of anyway. He could still see the good in Draco. I think Draco just wanted everything back the way things were, with a stable and happy family, but deep down knew siding with Voldemort was never going to be the means to that end anyway. But he had no choice. Once Voldemort died he seemed to pretty much hide away and the family kept to themselves. It's telling that Draco and Harry ended up in much the same way - married with kids (or one kid, in Draco's case). That's all Draco really wanted - a quiet, stable home life.

A family-rich guy (old money) who initially believes that his own cunning and guile were the causes of his success is revealed to be a sap for a higher power, who eventually turns on him, and is left a broke and broken husk whose only options are to save his own ass?

thecptI really didn't like that the malfoys weren't in hogwarts in the last scene like in the book.

I thought them walking away after Voldemort mocked the side-changing Draco was a good move given how they changed the finale and left out most of what Harry is saying to Voldemort (like rubbing Voledmort's not existing nose into the fact that Voldemort's killing of a ready-to-sacrfice-himself-for-the-others Harry meant that everybody was protected from Voldemort, master of the Elder Wand or not)

IIRC the movie focused more on the ownership of the Elder Wand during the showdown.Voldemort having driven away the Malfoys shortly before worked pretty well with Harry explaining Draco's role to Voldemort and Voldemort realizing how he might have won had he treated Draco and his parents differently and that he would have had to kill the now-out-of-reach Draco instead of Snape.

thecpt:I really didn't like that the malfoys weren't in hogwarts in the last scene like in the book.

There were some changes to the ending that I thought worked better in the film (and as much as I like the films, I'm pretty damned critical about the differences), but that bit really irked me too. For all of their treachery and acting as though they were wizard royalty, in the end, they just wanted their son safe and to be done with all of it. It added some humanity to the characters. Honestly, I pitied them throughout that book.

Isaacs was perfectly cast. Hell, he might've made for a great Snape as well.

The Voice of Doom:(like rubbing Voledmort's not existing nose into the fact that Voldemort's killing of a ready-to-sacrfice-himself-for-the-others Harry meant that everybody was protected from Voldemort, master of the Elder Wand or not)

Huh, having not read the books, I never thought of that. Makes sense given the whole origin story for Harry Potter. Harry sacrificing himself for everyone would put the same protective spell on them as it did on him when his parents sacrificed themselves for him.

Kind of a big hole in Voldemort's power though if every time someone sacrifices themselves for other people that he can't touch the people they sacrificed themselves for.

Dr Dreidel:A family-rich guy (old money) who initially believes that his own cunning and guile were the causes of his success is revealed to be a sap for a higher power, who eventually turns on him, and is left a broke and broken husk whose only options are to save his own ass?

LrdPhoenix:The Voice of Doom: (like rubbing Voledmort's not existing nose into the fact that Voldemort's killing of a ready-to-sacrfice-himself-for-the-others Harry meant that everybody was protected from Voldemort, master of the Elder Wand or not)

Huh, having not read the books, I never thought of that. Makes sense given the whole origin story for Harry Potter. Harry sacrificing himself for everyone would put the same protective spell on them as it did on him when his parents sacrificed themselves for him.

Kind of a big hole in Voldemort's power though if every time someone sacrifices themselves for other people that he can't touch the people they sacrificed themselves for.

Yep. Old Voldy was never capable of love, nor of understanding the power of love. That's why every step he took along the way just alienated his supporters and galvanized his enemies.

1. Voldy threatened Lily Potter, so Snape turned on him and became Dumbledore's man through and through.2. Voldy killed Lily and she died to protect her son, giving Harry special resistance to Voldy's killing curse.3. Years later, Voldy completely alienates the Malfoys by setting up Draco to fail at murdering Dumbledore. a. And because he set Draco on Dumbledore, Draco became the Master of the Elder Wand rather than Snape as Dumbledore had intended. b. If Snape had been the Master, Voldemort would have succeeded in taking the Elder Wand. Oops.4. Snape's love for Lily directly lead to V's defeat, thanks to the Sword of Gryffindor.5. The Malfoys abandon Voldemort because of how he treats them. If he'd not been such a dick, he could have taken the Elder Wand.6. Harry sacrifices himself to keep his fighters safe the same way Lily's sacrifice kept him safe.7. Narcissa chooses Draco over Voldemort when she doesn't tell Voldy Harry is still alive.8. And, the lynchpin in the battle, Harry choosing to save Draco's life in the Room of Requirement meant that when Narcissa asked if Draco was alive, he'd be able to say yes. If Harry had let Draco die, all would have been lost, but Harry knew Draco was being pulled by forces outside his control. Draco may be a dick, but he wasn't evil, and he was just as much a victim of circumstance as Harry was.

For so-called "children's literature," the Harry Potter series has some really deep plots and twists, and the characters (aside from Voldemort) are all very well-rounded.

It's criminal that Jason Isaacs is "Actor who played Lucius Malfoy." That guy acts circles around most of the casts in those movies. Go watch the Showtime show Brotherhood to see probably the best work he's ever done. One of my favorite shows from start to finish.

LiQuid!:It's criminal that Jason Isaacs is "Actor who played Lucius Malfoy." That guy acts circles around most of the casts in those movies. Go watch the Showtime show Brotherhood to see probably the best work he's ever done. One of my favorite shows from start to finish.

Name one adult actor he acts circles around. Now, I'm not saying Jason Isaacs sucks. He's brilliant. But the Harry Potter movies have been graced by some of the most talented actors of our time. He's a good fit for the ensemble.

The Voice of Doom:(like rubbing Voledmort's not existing nose into the fact that Voldemort's killing of a ready-to-sacrfice-himself-for-the-others Harry meant that everybody was protected from Voldemort, master of the Elder Wand or not)

My mind is blown. She spent a lot of time coming back to this little tidbit regarding Harry and his parents too.

Mike Chewbaccaa. And because he set Draco on Dumbledore, Draco became the Master of the Elder Wand rather than Snape as Dumbledore had intended.b. If Snape had been the Master, Voldemort would have succeeded in taking the Elder Wand. Oops.

Actually, the way Harry explained it to Voldemort, the intention wasn't to make Snape the master of the wand.The intention was to break the wand's power by leaving it without a master to beat and win it from:Snape didn't want to kill Dumbledore, Dumbledore asked Snape to do it against Snape's will; so, while Snape killed Dumledore, he was only acting on Dumbledore's orders, i.e. he killed Dumbledore without defeating him and thus he wouldn't have become the new master of the wand.

The Voice of Doom:Mike Chewbaccaa. And because he set Draco on Dumbledore, Draco became the Master of the Elder Wand rather than Snape as Dumbledore had intended.b. If Snape had been the Master, Voldemort would have succeeded in taking the Elder Wand. Oops.

Actually, the way Harry explained it to Voldemort, the intention wasn't to make Snape the master of the wand.The intention was to break the wand's power by leaving it without a master to beat and win it from:Snape didn't want to kill Dumbledore, Dumbledore asked Snape to do it against Snape's will; so, while Snape killed Dumledore, he was only acting on Dumbledore's orders, i.e. he killed Dumbledore without defeating him and thus he wouldn't have become the new master of the wand.

LrdPhoenix:The Voice of Doom: (like rubbing Voledmort's not existing nose into the fact that Voldemort's killing of a ready-to-sacrfice-himself-for-the-others Harry meant that everybody was protected from Voldemort, master of the Elder Wand or not)

Huh, having not read the books, I never thought of that. Makes sense given the whole origin story for Harry Potter. Harry sacrificing himself for everyone would put the same protective spell on them as it did on him when his parents sacrificed themselves for him.

Kind of a big hole in Voldemort's power though if every time someone sacrifices themselves for other people that he can't touch the people they sacrificed themselves for.

if I remember correctly, that only applied to Harry. Voldemort went after Harry because he believed Harry was the boy in the prophecy that was told to him (completely overlooking Neville as a possibility). So when Lily sacrificed herself to save Harry that magic that was created through her love also created a bond between Harry and Voldemort. Hence the Parseltongue and Harry being able to view Voldemort's thoughts and experience his emotions (also assuming Voldemort was able to do the same to Harry).

Lily inadvertently created a shield and a bond between the two of them.

911Jennya bond between Harry and Voldemort. Hence the Parseltongue and Harry being able to view Voldemort's thoughts and experience his emotions

I'm pretty sure the connection was explained with Harry accidentally becoming another Horcrux; that a piece of Voldemort's soul latched onto Harry as the only living thing in the room when the killing curse backfired.

LrdPhoenix:Kind of a big hole in Voldemort's power though if every time someone sacrifices themselves for other people that he can't touch the people they sacrificed themselves for.

I guess there weren't that many people who made the choice to die willingly without fighting back. For example, there's always talk about how the sacrifice of Harry's mother saved him, but Harry's unarmed father dying to buy them time didn't protect them.

But it seems like the strength of the protection varies (maybe with the strength of the love or the number of people):In the book Voldemort was able to silence the Hogwarts' crowd with a spell while he was gloating, but he had to do it several times because, while the spell worked, it always wore off quickly.The same happened with the spell Voldemort used to paralyze Neville: it did paralyze Neville, but Nevile was able to move again and kill the snake by the time Voldemort had sent the snake forward to finish the (not) paralyzed Neville.

Harry also still felt the need to actively protect his friends:Another thing that they changed for the movie in this context besides e.g. how the snake was killed, was that Harry didn't just jump up like "Haha, still alive, biatches!" for everybody to see.

In the book, when everybody is distracted by Neville killing the snake and all hell is breaking lose with the Centaurs and the people of Hogsmead joining the defenders, Harry just disappears under his invisibility cloak unnoticed (*) and, still presumed dead by everybody, he joins the battle invisibly by casting shields from the cover of his cloak (e.g. he protects Neville from Voldemort's revenge for killing the snake while Neville is still out in the open between the armies).Harry only reveals that he's still alive in the Great Hall at the very end of the battle when he casts an enormous shield to save Mrs Weasley from Voldemort's wrath for having killed Bellatrix. He then drops the cloak and challenges Voldemort directly.

After using the resurrection stone for courage and comfort and before the business with the wands when dueling Voldemort, using the third of the Hallows to fark things up royally for the baddies without being noticed was a touch that rounding things up nicely.

(*)He has the cloak with him, because in the book he needs it to leave the castle in secret without having to tell anyone (especially not Ron&Hermione, unlike in the movie) that he's about to follow Voledmort's demand and sacrifice himself, knowing he won't be able to go through with it otherwise. He only reveals himself briefly to Neville to make sure that there's a third person besides Ron and Hermione who knows about the importance of killing the snake

/only being able to play the verbose expert here because I happened to reread the book two weeks ago before finally getting around to watching the last movie for the first time

born_yesterday:Mike Chewbacca: For so-called "children's literature," the Harry Potter series has some really deep plots and twists, and the characters (aside from Voldemort) are all very well-rounded.

born_yesterday:Mike Chewbacca: For so-called "children's literature," the Harry Potter series has some really deep plots and twists, and the characters (aside from Voldemort) are all very well-rounded.

This. Just like Twilight.

A little late to the thread. If you had done that yesterday I'm betting you would have bagged your limit with that one.

Zombie Eater:There were some changes to the ending that I thought worked better in the film (and as much as I like the films, I'm pretty damned critical about the differences), but that bit really irked me too. For all of their treachery and acting as though they were wizard royalty, in the end, they just wanted their son safe and to be done with all of it. It added some humanity to the characters. Honestly, I pitied them throughout that book.

Yeah, I really wanted Draco to suddenly understand what was wrong and fight with Harry, because it seemed to just lead up to something like that. But, what actually happened with his whole family turning against Voldemort seemed like a good turn of events. There were a lot of good anti-heros in the series, with Snipe being my favorite one.

I could imagine Harry did his best to revive Snipes good name after the fall of Voldemort. After all, he named his son after him.