This is what scripture says:Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

Not two baptisms (water and fire), but just one (fire). First the physical, then the spiritual. The water baptism is a shadow of the fire baptism to come.

Hi Legoman I am sort of confused by your statement above , though one baptism by the Lord is fire I do see the water baptism that comes first , in everyone that comes to Christ , Paul is speaking of those in Christ already ,, to the church / Body of believers in Ephesius of the Holy Spirit and fire Baptism , the water baptism its is the fruits meet for repentance we have to do these first works first .... or do you believe this is only for the Jews ? some say Jews only , but I am not certain it is just for Jews because we all have to repent first before we are even able to recive the Holy Spirit baptism

Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto [them] all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

here Paul speaks of both

He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

And when Paul had laid [his] hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

for me we all goe though the water first and than the fire

maybe thats the twice dead that in Jude we can see a little better they were not undergoing the baptism of repentance nor the same baptism of Death in the Lord ?

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death:that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father,even so we also should walk in newness of life. I will consider your reply thanks here is the twice dead they never repented nor have suffered for doing Gods will like Jesus in glorifying God just some thoughts to consider ..

Jud 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds [they are] without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

I have prepared a sort of questionaire to Universalists - Answer me please;

1) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And If Eve ate of the forbidden fruit, [Gen 3:6] in the garden, it must have been God's will.

2) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And If Eve gave to her husband, Adam, and he did eat, also, [Gen 3:6] it must have been God's will.

3) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And if cain killed Able, [Gen 4:8] it must have been God's will.

4) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And if the sons of God came in unto the daughter's of men, [Gen 6:4] it must have been God's will.

5) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And if every thought of man's heart was only evil continually,[Gen 6:5] it must have been God's will.

6) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And if the men of the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were exceedingly wicked before the Lord, [Gen 13:13] it must have been God's will

Yes these were all God's will.

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7) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And If Saul disobeyed God, to spare the Amelekites, [1Sam 13:13-14] it must have been God's will. (Note:"...for now would the Lord have established thy kingdom upon Israel forever. But now thy kingdom shall not continue. The phrase "for now WOULD the Lord is the same as "it WAS the Lord's WILL. Saul's disobedience CHANGED the Lord's will for Saul; But it was God's will that his will be thwarted.

God does not will something to happen that will frustrate his will. That would make God completely contradictory to Himself. However, God does will things to happen that appear to be contrary to His end goal. God intends this to happen. For example (see Romans 11:32) God intends us all to be disobedient, so that He can have mercy on us and show the riches of His glory (see Romans 9). But God does not intend for us to be disobedient forever - in fact NO ONE will be disobedient forever. God's goal is that all will be obedient.

It is important to note there are two things that are being talked about in verses like the above. There is God's ultimate will - let's call it the goal, and his immediate will, let's call it the plan. God's plan sometimes appears to run contrary to the goal. For example, say that the goal is that no one ever sins. Yet God knew we would all sin. In fact you might say God even intended us to sin (but He didn't intend for us to sin forever) - God prepared the lamb before the foundation of the world to save us from sin, God put Adam & Eve in the garden right next to the tree of knowledge, God didn't stop the serpent from tempting Eve... etc. So if God ultimately doesn't want anyone to sin, why would His plan include us sinning right now? Because it is necessary. In order for us to understand goodness, we need to understand evil. In order for us to ultimately never sin again, we must first partake of sin (partake of the apple)... we must experience it, we must be tempted, we must realize its fruits, we must see how sin destroys and how sin is evil. If we didn't sin we would never know that. Us experiencing sin now is the plan that will later lead to us understanding good and evil which will ultimately lead to us being made in the image of God and never sinning again.

God does follows through on His intentions and achieves His plan.

Hope that made sense.

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8) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And If David committed adultry with Bath-sheba, [2 Sam 11:4] it must have been god's will.

9) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And If, of all the many thousands who came out of Egypt, in the great exodus, only two made it to the promised land, (Joshua and Caleb)[Num 14:30,38] it must have been God's will.

10) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And If Moses came down off the mount, and saw the children of israel dancing around a God they had made for themselves, [Num 32] it must have been God's will.

11) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And If all men sin and come short of the glory of God; [Rom 3:23] it must have been God's will.

Yes these are all God's will. Just so we are crystal clear, it must have been God's will that people sin in this earth... to say otherwise is to suggest God's creation ran amok - it did something God didn't want it to do - essentially God must have made a MISTAKE. Since it is impossible that God would make a mistake, we can safely conclude that God intended the world to be the way it is.

Again the whole reason for this world is to understand good and evil, so we can learn goodness. To do that we have to experience evil. From the CLV:

Eccl 1:13 It is an experience of evil Elohim [God] has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it

God is giving us an experience of evil. Think about the ramifications of that.

Another way to look at is like this:Heb 2:10 In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering.

Did you catch that? We are made perfect through suffering. God is making us perfect through suffering. So in order to make us perfect, God first has to create the suffering. What do you think the suffering in this world is for? God has a reason for everything.

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12) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And if the Jews always resist the Holy Spirit, [Acts 7:51] it must have been God's will.

13) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And if the Jews stoned Stephen, [Acts 7:60] it must have been God's will.

14) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And if evil men put you out of the synagogue, and even kill you, they will think they do God a service, [John 16:2-3] but it must have been God's will.

15) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And if the Jews rebelled against God, and cast down his law behind their backs, and slew the prophets, and wrought great provocation, [Neh 9:26] it must have been God's will.

16) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And if Pharoah slew all the male children of Israel, [Exo 1:16] it must have been God's will.

17) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And if Herod slew all the children of Bethlehem, and in all the costs thereof, from two years old and under, [Mat 2:16] it must have been God's will.

18) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And if Ananias lied to the Holy Spirit, [Acts 5:2-3] it must have been God's will.

19) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And if Sapphira, his wife joined him in his deed, [Acts 5:2-3] it must have been God's will.

20) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And if Satan was a liar from the beginning, [John 8:44] it must have been God's will.

21) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And if Peter betrayed his Lord with denial, [Mat 26:75] it must have been God's will.

Yes these are all God's will too.

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22) And If God's will cannot be frustrated, and I preach about a god of vengeance, why do you correct me, and say that my God is a God of hate? It must be God's will that I so teach! And for you to intervene in any way; for you to not aid me in my task, is to go against God's will; which can't be done?

"why do you correct me" you say. Why not? Because God has given me a heart to search out the truth and preach the gospel, that's why! Remember God's will does not frustrate His own will. God sets us up in disobedience, puts us through suffering, so He can have mercy on us later, show His glory, and perfect us as sons.

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23) And if God's will cannot be overturned, or thwarted, why should wives submit to their own husbands, children obey their parents, murderers be punished, and etc. ad nauseum? God's will is, after all, behind it all.

24) And if God is love, and I preach that he is a God of vengeance, what difference does it make to you, it is God's will.

25) And If God's will cannot be frustrated, he becomes directly responsible for all the sin, murder, adultry, lying, cheating, stealing, every evil thing man has ever done. there can be no "repentance, (which God wills that every man repent), because how can a man 'repent" of doing god's will

Here your questions have changed a bit. The reason we should do what God says, and not sin, is because that is what God has commanded. Yet people will still sin until they have a change of heart. And that change of heart only comes from the father (John 6:44, 6:65).

I think what you are missing is that this life is the experience of evil that God intended it to be. He created many vessels of dishonor, and some vessels of honor. He intends for the vessels of honor to eventually overcome, while the vessels of dishonor will be destroyed. The destruction will bring about a change, so that all vessels will be made in a new creation. This life is all about EXPERIENCE. We were doomed to futility, but God will liberate us. That is our hope. It is not a hope for God because God knows He will do it. But it is our hope because we must have faith that God will do what He says.Romans 8:20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

Now if you don't believe that God will liberate the creation from bondage to decay, then you do not have hope, and you don't believe Romans 8:21. Doesn't mean God won't do it though.

Not sure if I answered your questions or confused you more, but I welcome your response!

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Do you begin to see just a wee crakc in the doctrine, yet? There is plenty more where this came from. Because, after all, it is God's will that I break down this doctrine, and so I must. And for you to intervene, is to frustrate God's will.

Like I said, there are no cracks. Its really just perspective. God intends for us all to be frustrated for a time. That is what you and I experience every day: frustration. Yet God will liberate us. Just have faith that He will do what He says He will do.

This is what scripture says:Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

Not two baptisms (water and fire), but just one (fire). First the physical, then the spiritual. The water baptism is a shadow of the fire baptism to come.

Hi Legoman I am sort of confused by your statement above , though one baptism by the Lord is fire I do see the water baptism that comes first , in everyone that comes to Christ , Paul is speaking of those in Christ already ,, to the church / Body of believers in Ephesius of the Holy Spirit and fire Baptism , the water baptism its is the fruits meet for repentance we have to do these first works first .... or do you believe this is only for the Jews ? some say Jews only , but I am not certain it is just for Jews because we all have to repent first before we are even able to recive the Holy Spirit baptism

Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto [them] all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

here Paul speaks of both

He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

And when Paul had laid [his] hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

for me we all goe though the water first and than the fire

maybe thats the twice dead that in Jude we can see a little better they were not undergoing the baptism of repentance nor the same baptism of Death in the Lord ?

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death:that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father,even so we also should walk in newness of life. I will consider your reply thanks here is the twice dead they never repented nor have suffered for doing Gods will like Jesus in glorifying God just some thoughts to consider ..

Jud 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds [they are] without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

Its just my take on it.

What happens in the physical is just a type or shadow of what will and must happen in the spiritual.

If you are baptized in water, but don't have a change of heart, then all that happened was you went down dry and came up wet.

The water baptism symbolizes what must happen in the spiritual. We will be covered by the living water of Christ. The fire baptism symolizes what will actually happen - trials by fire, purging by fire, etc. The baptism by fire is the real deal, the baptism by water is the shadow. The baptism by fire is what the holy spirit puts us through so that we will actually be made righteous by purging out all the junk in our life.

Baptism by holy spirit -> same thing as baptism by fire I guess? Baptism into Christ's death? Baptism into repentance? These are all the same thing. There is only ONE baptism, according to Paul. I don't have much time to look into it right now, but like I said this is "just my take on it".

that the water on is temporary the Fire one does change us this is pretty good summary of it here Strong's G907 - baptizō 1) to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)

2) to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one's self, bathe

3) to overwhelm

"Note on Baptism in Ac. Baptism in water (such as John's) is distinguished from baptism with the Holy Spirit (i. 5, etc.). Those who receive the latter, however, may also be baptized in water (cf. xi. 16 with x. 47); and there is one example of people who had previously received John's baptism receiving Christian baptism as a preliminary to receiving the Spirit (xix. 3 ff.). John's was a baptism of repentance (xiii. 24; xix. 4), as was also Christian baptism (ii. 38), but as John's pointed forward to Jesus (xix. 4), it became obsolete when He came. Christian baptism followed faith in the Lord Jesus (xvi. 31 ff.); it was associated with His name (ii. 38; viii. 16, etc.), which was invoked by the person baptized (xxii. 16); it signified the remission (ii. 38) or washing away of sins (xxii. 16); sometimes it preceded (ii. 38; viii. 15 ff.; xix. 5), sometimes followed (x. 47 f.) the receiving of the Spirit." (F. F. Bruce. The Acts of the Apostles [Greek Text Commentary], London: Tyndale, 1952, p. 98, n. 1.)This word should not be confused with baptô (911). The clearest example that shows the meaning of baptizo is a text from the Greek poet and physician Nicander, who lived about 200 B.C. It is a recipe for making pickles and is helpful because it uses both words. Nicander says that in order to make a pickle, the vegetable should first be 'dipped' (baptô) into boiling water and then 'baptised' (baptizô) in the vinegar solution. Both verbs concern the immersing of vegetables in a solution. But the first is temporary. The second, the act of baptising the vegetable, produces a permanent change.

Strong's G908 - baptisma 1) immersion, submersion

a) of calamities and afflictions with which one is quite overwhelmed

b) of John's baptism, that purification rite by which men on confessing their sins were bound to spiritual reformation, obtained the pardon of their past sins and became qualified for the benefits of the Messiah's kingdom soon to be set up. This was valid Christian baptism, as this was the only baptism the apostles received and it is not recorded anywhere that they were ever rebaptised after Pentecost.

c) of Christian baptism; a rite of immersion in water as commanded by Christ, by which one after confessing his sins and professing his faith in Christ, having been born again by the Holy Spirit unto a new life, identifies publicly with the fellowship of Christ and the church.

In Rom 6:3, Paul states we are "baptised unto death" meaning that we are not only dead to our former ways, but they are buried. To return to them is as unthinkable for a Christian as for one to dig up a dead corpse! See also discussion of baptism under the previous Strong's number (907).

Theo Book

This topic is a bit on the "trollish" side, ...but because we at Tentmaker are a welcoming bunch, it deserves to be addressed in the name of welcome...

Btw... before I begin... Welcome to Tentmaker, TB ... God has brought you here to LEARN... the big question is... will you?

Basically the answer to ALL your questions is -- YES -- and in your endeavor to "trip" the truth (as was attempted by the Pharisees with CHRIST), shall your "attempt" herein, fail...

And if you bother to completely read my answer to you, ...you will in all likelihood, become frustrated because your attempt to refute the Salvation of ALL, herein fails... but, as I have already suggested to you --- an OPPORTUNITY is given you, for GOD has led you here to LEARN... ...and we here at TM shall hope you "have your EARS on" as freely as you have "OPENED your MOUTH"...

The question I have for you, TB... is shall you LEARN from this failure to refute "UR", or will you attempt to sidestep it?

Just one question for you WH...

What would your reaction be to my post if I started out with "God sent me here to teach you guys..."

This topic is a bit on the "trollish" side, ...but because we at Tentmaker are a welcoming bunch, it deserves to be addressed in the name of welcome...

Btw... before I begin... Welcome to Tentmaker, TB ... God has brought you here to LEARN... the big question is... will you?

Basically the answer to ALL your questions is -- YES -- and in your endeavor to "trip" the truth (as was attempted by the Pharisees with CHRIST), shall your "attempt" herein, fail...

And if you bother to completely read my answer to you, ...you will in all likelihood, become frustrated because your attempt to refute the Salvation of ALL, herein fails... but, as I have already suggested to you --- an OPPORTUNITY is given you, for GOD has led you here to LEARN... ...and we here at TM shall hope you "have your EARS on" as freely as you have "OPENED your MOUTH"...

The question I have for you, TB... is shall you LEARN from this failure to refute "UR", or will you attempt to sidestep it?

This topic is a bit on the "trollish" side, ...but because we at Tentmaker are a welcoming bunch, it deserves to be addressed in the name of welcome...

Btw... before I begin... Welcome to Tentmaker, TB ... God has brought you here to LEARN... the big question is... will you?

Basically the answer to ALL your questions is -- YES -- and in your endeavor to "trip" the truth (as was attempted by the Pharisees with CHRIST), shall your "attempt" herein, fail...

And if you bother to completely read my answer to you, ...you will in all likelihood, become frustrated because your attempt to refute the Salvation of ALL, herein fails... but, as I have already suggested to you --- an OPPORTUNITY is given you, for GOD has led you here to LEARN... ...and we here at TM shall hope you "have your EARS on" as freely as you have "OPENED your MOUTH"...

The question I have for you, TB... is shall you LEARN from this failure to refute "UR", or will you attempt to sidestep it?

I suppose you think yourself the "1st" of your kind to come to this forum, eh?

Bringing with you some "new enlightenment" to the membership of Tentmaker?

Failing to KNOW that we all came OUT of the place [babylon] you are IN today...

Just so's ya know... I was active and held MEMBERSHIPS of -- 20 YEARS in the Salvation Army, and of -- 5 YEARS in the SDA church, not to mention MUSIC MINISTRY affiliations with organizations such as, the Assembly of God, ...Healing Rooms International, ...Catholic and Episcopal... not to mention several "non-denoms"

ALL which teach either HELL or Annhilation...

ALL of which teach the SORROWFUL news of LOSS instead of the VICTORY of the CROSS...

ALL of which are centered upon SELF in their doctrinal stands...

ALL of which are numbered as MANY, not few...

NONE of which teach to the WORLD that GOD SO LOVES [with an ETERNAL and UNCHANGING LOVE] -- it is ETERNALLY INVALUABLE, rather teaching it to be ETERNALLY EXPENDABLE

NONE of which observe the SPOKEN WILL of GOD which is UNWILLING that ANY PERISH... teaching instead, that the CLAY dictates itself to the POTTER...

NONE of which teach the SAVED are as the STARS of Heaven, and SAND of the Sea --- INNUMERBLE...

You are hardly the 1st, nor shall likely be the last to come here thinking you shall bring a message which shall DETER our belief, which IS the TRUTH... and IS the GOSPEL... FULL of JOY, FULL of VICTORY, FULL of COMPLETENESS which IS the meaning of PERFECTION...

Arguing the UNREASONABLE and FRUITLESS fleshly vengence of EYE for EYE, [i.e. HELL/eternal punishment] in the place of the GRACE of DIVINE LOVE... and VICTORIOUS FULFILLMENT of that LOVE in ALL...

This topic is a bit on the "trollish" side, ...but because we at Tentmaker are a welcoming bunch, it deserves to be addressed in the name of welcome...

Btw... before I begin... Welcome to Tentmaker, TB ... God has brought you here to LEARN... the big question is... will you?

Basically the answer to ALL your questions is -- YES -- and in your endeavor to "trip" the truth (as was attempted by the Pharisees with CHRIST), shall your "attempt" herein, fail...

And if you bother to completely read my answer to you, ...you will in all likelihood, become frustrated because your attempt to refute the Salvation of ALL, herein fails... but, as I have already suggested to you --- an OPPORTUNITY is given you, for GOD has led you here to LEARN... ...and we here at TM shall hope you "have your EARS on" as freely as you have "OPENED your MOUTH"...

The question I have for you, TB... is shall you LEARN from this failure to refute "UR", or will you attempt to sidestep it?

(3) you do not understand what a DISCUSSION is --- which involves that

[1] YOU ask questions -- which you did --> # = 25, ...WE answer them (which I DID!) --- and then,

[2] WE ask questions and YOU answer them (which YOU have NOT)

You therefore admit that you are unable to answer my questions of you, eh?

Even though you do not see it, ...in this post, you have answered your own question of me... One which purposes to SPEAK ONLY, and which endeavors to TEACH, not to LEARN... and is about "IMPOSING" his viewpoint/opinion on a given subject, rather than "DISCUSSING" it...

HERE are questions you have NOT ANSWERED (just in case you decide to discuss!):

(1) use or translation of the word "forever" is INVALID, for until one can COMPLETELY define the word -- (which includes WITHOUT BEGINNING -- by explaining how something has NO BEGINNING, to include why and how that, ...IS?)... Use of the word FOREVER by any finite which does not comprehend said meaning, is therefore INVALID.

8) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And If David committed adultry with Bath-sheba, [2 Sam 11:4] it must have been god's will.

YES (see #1) -- also... man devises his way (as did David in this example), but GOD orders the STEPS of man -- Prov 16:9 -- Prov 20:21 -- Jer 10:23 -- will you BELIEVE what the WORD, PLAINLY states in MULTIPLE verses, bringing its LIGHT, ...TB? Or shall you cling to your own darkened "opinions"?

9) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And If, of all the many thousands who came out of Egypt, in the great exodus, only two made it to the promised land, (Joshua and Caleb)[Num 14:30,38] it must have been God's will.

YES (see #1) -- also... how do you continue to think that the DIVINE WILL of the ALMIGHTY can be neutralized by His own Creation? What "faith" is seen in this? The prerequisite NUMBER which eventually PHYSICALLY entered the "promised land" is not specified is it?

Where is the Prophecy noted that only TWO of the entire nation of ISRAEL should enter the promised land? Also... MOSES was not one of them... is this your conclusion as well, TB? That because MOSES did not enter PHYSICALLY, ...he therefore SHALL NEVER ENTER?

What of this, TB? --->Rom 11:26 -- and so ...ALL ISRAEL shall be SAVED, as IS WRITTEN, there shall come out of Zion, the DELIVERER and shall turn AWAY ungodliness from JACOB...

This includes the ENTIRE nation which did NOT enter into the PROMISED land. Only those CHOSEN to ENTER into the Kingdom [promised land] IN this life, shall do so IN THIS LIFE... It does not say that those who do not enter, shall NEVER enter.

10) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And If Moses came down off the mount, and saw the children of israel dancing around a God they had made for themselves, [Num 32] it must have been God's will.

YES (see #1) -- If it is WRITTEN in the WORD (which it IS!) ...which preceeds the event, then it WAS to BE so, ...well BEFORE it actually occured... are you getting the CLEANSING SPIRITUAL picture yet, TB? Or shall you continue wallowing in the CARNAL RELIGIOUS mud, given you? Must I continue this?

12) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And if the Jews always resist the Holy Spirit, [Acts 7:51] it must have been God's will.

YES (see #1) -- also... you only display YOURSELF and your RELIGION by noting this, bro... You must therefore NEGATE the words of PAUL in Rom 11:26 -- in order to continue to facilitate this belief.

"ALWAYS" in this context, simply means that:

(1) these have YET to be drawn to the SON and,

(2) shall remain so until their DUE TIME -- 1 Tim 2:6 -- and,

(3) are therefore YET to bow at the KNEE and CONFESS with the tongue -- Phil 2:10-11 -- John 6:44

It cannot mean "ALWAYS" in the sense you propose, for the word ALWAYS is a word such as NEVER, and FOREVER... meaning that PRIOR to being stiffnecked, these were stiffnecked... -- for they were "ALWAYS" stiffnecked, eh?

Will you answer these? Probably NOT... mostly because if you are honest with yourself, you came here not to discuss, in which you might LEARN... you are here to preach the FRUITLESSNESS of what most here, have long ago abandoned...

I have prepared a sort of questionaire to Universalists - Answer me please;

1) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And If Eve ate of the forbidden fruit, [Gen 3:6] in the garden, it must have been God's will.

2) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And If Eve gave to her husband, Adam, and he did eat, also, [Gen 3:6] it must have been God's will.

3) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And if cain killed Able, [Gen 4:8] it must have been God's will.

4) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And if the sons of God came in unto the daughter's of men, [Gen 6:4] it must have been God's will.

5) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And if every thought of man's heart was only evil continually,[Gen 6:5] it must have been God's will.

6) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And if the men of the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were exceedingly wicked before the Lord, [Gen 13:13] it must have been God's will

Yes these were all God's will.

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7) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And If Saul disobeyed God, to spare the Amelekites, [1Sam 13:13-14] it must have been God's will. (Note:"...for now would the Lord have established thy kingdom upon Israel forever. But now thy kingdom shall not continue. The phrase "for now WOULD the Lord is the same as "it WAS the Lord's WILL. Saul's disobedience CHANGED the Lord's will for Saul; But it was God's will that his will be thwarted.

God does not will something to happen that will frustrate his will. That would make God completely contradictory to Himself. However, God does will things to happen that appear to be contrary to His end goal. God intends this to happen. For example (see Romans 11:32) God intends us all to be disobedient, so that He can have mercy on us and show the riches of His glory (see Romans 9). But God does not intend for us to be disobedient forever - in fact NO ONE will be disobedient forever. God's goal is that all will be obedient.

It is important to note there are two things that are being talked about in verses like the above. There is God's ultimate will - let's call it the goal, and his immediate will, let's call it the plan. God's plan sometimes appears to run contrary to the goal. For example, say that the goal is that no one ever sins. Yet God knew we would all sin. In fact you might say God even intended us to sin (but He didn't intend for us to sin forever) - God prepared the lamb before the foundation of the world to save us from sin, God put Adam & Eve in the garden right next to the tree of knowledge, God didn't stop the serpent from tempting Eve... etc. So if God ultimately doesn't want anyone to sin, why would His plan include us sinning right now? Because it is necessary. In order for us to understand goodness, we need to understand evil. In order for us to ultimately never sin again, we must first partake of sin (partake of the apple)... we must experience it, we must be tempted, we must realize its fruits, we must see how sin destroys and how sin is evil. If we didn't sin we would never know that. Us experiencing sin now is the plan that will later lead to us understanding good and evil which will ultimately lead to us being made in the image of God and never sinning again.

God does follows through on His intentions and achieves His plan.

Hope that made sense.

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8) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And If David committed adultry with Bath-sheba, [2 Sam 11:4] it must have been god's will.

9) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And If, of all the many thousands who came out of Egypt, in the great exodus, only two made it to the promised land, (Joshua and Caleb)[Num 14:30,38] it must have been God's will.

10) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And If Moses came down off the mount, and saw the children of israel dancing around a God they had made for themselves, [Num 32] it must have been God's will.

11) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And If all men sin and come short of the glory of God; [Rom 3:23] it must have been God's will.

Yes these are all God's will. Just so we are crystal clear, it must have been God's will that people sin in this earth... to say otherwise is to suggest God's creation ran amok - it did something God didn't want it to do - essentially God must have made a MISTAKE. Since it is impossible that God would make a mistake, we can safely conclude that God intended the world to be the way it is.

Again the whole reason for this world is to understand good and evil, so we can learn goodness. To do that we have to experience evil. From the CLV:

Eccl 1:13 It is an experience of evil Elohim [God] has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it

God is giving us an experience of evil. Think about the ramifications of that.

Another way to look at is like this:Heb 2:10 In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering.

Did you catch that? We are made perfect through suffering. God is making us perfect through suffering. So in order to make us perfect, God first has to create the suffering. What do you think the suffering in this world is for? God has a reason for everything.

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12) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And if the Jews always resist the Holy Spirit, [Acts 7:51] it must have been God's will.

13) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And if the Jews stoned Stephen, [Acts 7:60] it must have been God's will.

14) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And if evil men put you out of the synagogue, and even kill you, they will think they do God a service, [John 16:2-3] but it must have been God's will.

15) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And if the Jews rebelled against God, and cast down his law behind their backs, and slew the prophets, and wrought great provocation, [Neh 9:26] it must have been God's will.

16) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And if Pharoah slew all the male children of Israel, [Exo 1:16] it must have been God's will.

17) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And if Herod slew all the children of Bethlehem, and in all the costs thereof, from two years old and under, [Mat 2:16] it must have been God's will.

18) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And if Ananias lied to the Holy Spirit, [Acts 5:2-3] it must have been God's will.

19) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And if Sapphira, his wife joined him in his deed, [Acts 5:2-3] it must have been God's will.

20) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And if Satan was a liar from the beginning, [John 8:44] it must have been God's will.

21) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And if Peter betrayed his Lord with denial, [Mat 26:75] it must have been God's will.

Yes these are all God's will too.

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22) And If God's will cannot be frustrated, and I preach about a god of vengeance, why do you correct me, and say that my God is a God of hate? It must be God's will that I so teach! And for you to intervene in any way; for you to not aid me in my task, is to go against God's will; which can't be done?

"why do you correct me" you say. Why not? Because God has given me a heart to search out the truth and preach the gospel, that's why! Remember God's will does not frustrate His own will. God sets us up in disobedience, puts us through suffering, so He can have mercy on us later, show His glory, and perfect us as sons.

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23) And if God's will cannot be overturned, or thwarted, why should wives submit to their own husbands, children obey their parents, murderers be punished, and etc. ad nauseum? God's will is, after all, behind it all.

24) And if God is love, and I preach that he is a God of vengeance, what difference does it make to you, it is God's will.

25) And If God's will cannot be frustrated, he becomes directly responsible for all the sin, murder, adultry, lying, cheating, stealing, every evil thing man has ever done. there can be no "repentance, (which God wills that every man repent), because how can a man 'repent" of doing god's will

Here your questions have changed a bit. The reason we should do what God says, and not sin, is because that is what God has commanded. Yet people will still sin until they have a change of heart. And that change of heart only comes from the father (John 6:44, 6:65).

I think what you are missing is that this life is the experience of evil that God intended it to be. He created many vessels of dishonor, and some vessels of honor. He intends for the vessels of honor to eventually overcome, while the vessels of dishonor will be destroyed. The destruction will bring about a change, so that all vessels will be made in a new creation. This life is all about EXPERIENCE. We were doomed to futility, but God will liberate us. That is our hope. It is not a hope for God because God knows He will do it. But it is our hope because we must have faith that God will do what He says.Romans 8:20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

Now if you don't believe that God will liberate the creation from bondage to decay, then you do not have hope, and you don't believe Romans 8:21. Doesn't mean God won't do it though.

Not sure if I answered your questions or confused you more, but I welcome your response!

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Do you begin to see just a wee crakc in the doctrine, yet? There is plenty more where this came from. Because, after all, it is God's will that I break down this doctrine, and so I must. And for you to intervene, is to frustrate God's will.

Like I said, there are no cracks. Its really just perspective. God intends for us all to be frustrated for a time. That is what you and I experience every day: frustration. Yet God will liberate us. Just have faith that He will do what He says He will do.

So basically, you're saying it is God's will that some sin and some do not so that some can go to heaven immediately upon death, but others are to suffer hell-fire for a temporary time before going to heaven for a temporary time?

I have prepared a sort of questionaire to Universalists - Answer me please;

1) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And If Eve ate of the forbidden fruit, [Gen 3:6] in the garden, it must have been God's will.

2) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And If Eve gave to her husband, Adam, and he did eat, also, [Gen 3:6] it must have been God's will.

3) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And if cain killed Able, [Gen 4:8] it must have been God's will.

4) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And if the sons of God came in unto the daughter's of men, [Gen 6:4] it must have been God's will.

5) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And if every thought of man's heart was only evil continually,[Gen 6:5] it must have been God's will.

6) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And if the men of the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were exceedingly wicked before the Lord, [Gen 13:13] it must have been God's will

Yes these were all God's will.

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7) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And If Saul disobeyed God, to spare the Amelekites, [1Sam 13:13-14] it must have been God's will. (Note:"...for now would the Lord have established thy kingdom upon Israel forever. But now thy kingdom shall not continue. The phrase "for now WOULD the Lord is the same as "it WAS the Lord's WILL. Saul's disobedience CHANGED the Lord's will for Saul; But it was God's will that his will be thwarted.

God does not will something to happen that will frustrate his will. That would make God completely contradictory to Himself. However, God does will things to happen that appear to be contrary to His end goal. God intends this to happen. For example (see Romans 11:32) God intends us all to be disobedient, so that He can have mercy on us and show the riches of His glory (see Romans 9). But God does not intend for us to be disobedient forever - in fact NO ONE will be disobedient forever. God's goal is that all will be obedient.

It is important to note there are two things that are being talked about in verses like the above. There is God's ultimate will - let's call it the goal, and his immediate will, let's call it the plan. God's plan sometimes appears to run contrary to the goal. For example, say that the goal is that no one ever sins. Yet God knew we would all sin. In fact you might say God even intended us to sin (but He didn't intend for us to sin forever) - God prepared the lamb before the foundation of the world to save us from sin, God put Adam & Eve in the garden right next to the tree of knowledge, God didn't stop the serpent from tempting Eve... etc. So if God ultimately doesn't want anyone to sin, why would His plan include us sinning right now? Because it is necessary. In order for us to understand goodness, we need to understand evil. In order for us to ultimately never sin again, we must first partake of sin (partake of the apple)... we must experience it, we must be tempted, we must realize its fruits, we must see how sin destroys and how sin is evil. If we didn't sin we would never know that. Us experiencing sin now is the plan that will later lead to us understanding good and evil which will ultimately lead to us being made in the image of God and never sinning again.

God does follows through on His intentions and achieves His plan.

Hope that made sense.

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8) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And If David committed adultry with Bath-sheba, [2 Sam 11:4] it must have been god's will.

9) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And If, of all the many thousands who came out of Egypt, in the great exodus, only two made it to the promised land, (Joshua and Caleb)[Num 14:30,38] it must have been God's will.

10) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And If Moses came down off the mount, and saw the children of israel dancing around a God they had made for themselves, [Num 32] it must have been God's will.

11) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And If all men sin and come short of the glory of God; [Rom 3:23] it must have been God's will.

Yes these are all God's will. Just so we are crystal clear, it must have been God's will that people sin in this earth... to say otherwise is to suggest God's creation ran amok - it did something God didn't want it to do - essentially God must have made a MISTAKE. Since it is impossible that God would make a mistake, we can safely conclude that God intended the world to be the way it is.

Again the whole reason for this world is to understand good and evil, so we can learn goodness. To do that we have to experience evil. From the CLV:

Eccl 1:13 It is an experience of evil Elohim [God] has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it

God is giving us an experience of evil. Think about the ramifications of that.

Another way to look at is like this:Heb 2:10 In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering.

Did you catch that? We are made perfect through suffering. God is making us perfect through suffering. So in order to make us perfect, God first has to create the suffering. What do you think the suffering in this world is for? God has a reason for everything.

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12) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And if the Jews always resist the Holy Spirit, [Acts 7:51] it must have been God's will.

13) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And if the Jews stoned Stephen, [Acts 7:60] it must have been God's will.

14) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And if evil men put you out of the synagogue, and even kill you, they will think they do God a service, [John 16:2-3] but it must have been God's will.

15) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And if the Jews rebelled against God, and cast down his law behind their backs, and slew the prophets, and wrought great provocation, [Neh 9:26] it must have been God's will.

16) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And if Pharoah slew all the male children of Israel, [Exo 1:16] it must have been God's will.

17) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And if Herod slew all the children of Bethlehem, and in all the costs thereof, from two years old and under, [Mat 2:16] it must have been God's will.

18) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And if Ananias lied to the Holy Spirit, [Acts 5:2-3] it must have been God's will.

19) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And if Sapphira, his wife joined him in his deed, [Acts 5:2-3] it must have been God's will.

20) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And if Satan was a liar from the beginning, [John 8:44] it must have been God's will.

21) If God's will cannot be frustrated; And if Peter betrayed his Lord with denial, [Mat 26:75] it must have been God's will.

Yes these are all God's will too.

Quote

22) And If God's will cannot be frustrated, and I preach about a god of vengeance, why do you correct me, and say that my God is a God of hate? It must be God's will that I so teach! And for you to intervene in any way; for you to not aid me in my task, is to go against God's will; which can't be done?

"why do you correct me" you say. Why not? Because God has given me a heart to search out the truth and preach the gospel, that's why! Remember God's will does not frustrate His own will. God sets us up in disobedience, puts us through suffering, so He can have mercy on us later, show His glory, and perfect us as sons.

Quote

23) And if God's will cannot be overturned, or thwarted, why should wives submit to their own husbands, children obey their parents, murderers be punished, and etc. ad nauseum? God's will is, after all, behind it all.

24) And if God is love, and I preach that he is a God of vengeance, what difference does it make to you, it is God's will.

25) And If God's will cannot be frustrated, he becomes directly responsible for all the sin, murder, adultry, lying, cheating, stealing, every evil thing man has ever done. there can be no "repentance, (which God wills that every man repent), because how can a man 'repent" of doing god's will

Here your questions have changed a bit. The reason we should do what God says, and not sin, is because that is what God has commanded. Yet people will still sin until they have a change of heart. And that change of heart only comes from the father (John 6:44, 6:65).

I think what you are missing is that this life is the experience of evil that God intended it to be. He created many vessels of dishonor, and some vessels of honor. He intends for the vessels of honor to eventually overcome, while the vessels of dishonor will be destroyed. The destruction will bring about a change, so that all vessels will be made in a new creation. This life is all about EXPERIENCE. We were doomed to futility, but God will liberate us. That is our hope. It is not a hope for God because God knows He will do it. But it is our hope because we must have faith that God will do what He says.Romans 8:20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

Now if you don't believe that God will liberate the creation from bondage to decay, then you do not have hope, and you don't believe Romans 8:21. Doesn't mean God won't do it though.

Not sure if I answered your questions or confused you more, but I welcome your response!

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Do you begin to see just a wee crakc in the doctrine, yet? There is plenty more where this came from. Because, after all, it is God's will that I break down this doctrine, and so I must. And for you to intervene, is to frustrate God's will.

Like I said, there are no cracks. Its really just perspective. God intends for us all to be frustrated for a time. That is what you and I experience every day: frustration. Yet God will liberate us. Just have faith that He will do what He says He will do.

So basically, you're saying it is God's will that some sin and some do not so that some can go to heaven immediately upon death, but others are to suffer hell-fire for a temporary time before going to heaven for a temporary time?

No that's not what I'm saying at all. We ALL sin. But anyway, look, here is what scripture says:

Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

If God wants to create Hitler for one purpose and Mother Teresa for another purpose, that is His right. God makes both Pharaoh and the great apostle Paul for His purposes. His purposes are ultimately good (for all) and ultimately restorative (for all).

I'm not sure where you are getting the "hellfire" and "heaven for a temporary time" stuff. This life is not about making a choice to "get to heaven" or avoiding "hell". This life is about learning how to love and how to overcome evil. This life is about being made into the image of God, which is LOVE (God is LOVE).

Some things for you to think on: - if we are to be made in the image of love, we need to learn how to love (all of 1 Cor 13 - patience, kindness, always forgiving, always protecting, overcoming evil, never failing, etc)- if we need to learn how to forgive, we need something to forgive people of- if we need to learn how to protect, we need something to protect people from- if God makes us perfect through suffering, wouldn't God need to create the suffering in order to make us perfect?- if we are to learn how to overcome evil, wouldn't God need to create evil for us to overcome?

Man thinks God created him,.. {well some don't even think that}.. put him here and left him to figure everything out all by himself. There are many translated Bibles with words that are mistranslated. There are hundreds of different beliefs out in the world not one that is a hundred percent right, yet man thinks God expects us to get it right or our Father who loves us more than we love our own children will burn us continually.

There is something wrong with this kind of thinking, yet man cannot see it, weird huh?

Theo Book

You know what Theo, God did send you here to teach us something and you to learn something also. I believe we learn from all sources.

You can bet your bottom dollar you are here for some reason that only God knows at this time.

By the way Theo, I don't believe I read what your beliefs are. If you have said I must have missed them. Just what do you believe about punishment and salvation?

CHB

If you will study the use of "aiwnios" in scripture, you will see that the same form of the same word is used to designate both salvation and damnation. I do not understand how one can say aiwnios means eternal when addressing salvation, but only an age when addressing torment. It is the same form of the same word. (did I mention that?")

For different forms of the same word-compare this - II Thes 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe because our testimony among you was believed)in that day."[aiwnion = accusative masculine singular form of aiwnios]

With this - II Thes 2:16-17 "Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, 17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work." [everlasting = aiwnian = accusative feminine singular form of aiwnios]

And they can argue all day long about "eternal hell" not being in scripture, this verse speaks of eternal fire, not hell. fire comes from the greek "pur."

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into [to (definite article) pur accusative neuter singular noun "fire"] to (definite article) aiwnion accusative neuter singular form of aiwnios] everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

So it would not be amiss to translate it:Mat 25:41 "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the everlasting the fire [the fire that is everlasting], prepared for the devil and his angels:"

I think there are an awful lot of arguments being offered to prove what is not provable, about wordsw that are not significant to the issue. It does not matter if "hell" is mistranslated, or if sheol, hades, and gehenna are misunderstood, fire remains comprehensible. I don't care if the eternal fire is in hell, grave, or imagination, if it is eternal, it will be around for a very long time. If it will NOT be eternal, then neither will the salvation of promise be, for it is described by the same adjective, and in many cases, the same form thereof.

Theo,Both the punishment and life have a beginning, right? So how can either one of them be eternal, everlasting, or forever? Have you looked up these words to see what their meanings are? They all do not have a beginning or end.

The eternal life that Jesus talked about was the life in the earthly kingdom which will have an end. When all is in all then time won't exist. The word aion means an age or ages and will not exist after all is in all. Therefore both punishment and aion or age lasting life will have an end.

"Because the life we may be raised to could be a type of life that then could change. Immortality is the absolute sense of the nature of our life. We can be immortal and have different types of existances.

Concerning the word aion and aionios they are in the absolute sense temporary references..."

If you will study the use of "aiwnios" in scripture, you will see that the same form of the same word is used to designate both salvation and damnation. I do not understand how one can say aiwnios means eternal when addressing salvation, but only an age when addressing torment. It is the same form of the same word. (did I mention that?")

Theo,Both the punishment and life have a beginning, right? So how can either one of them be eternal, everlasting, or forever? Have you looked up these words to see what their meanings are? They all do not have a beginning or end.

The eternal life that Jesus talked about was the life in the earthly kingdom which will have an end. When all is in all then time won't exist. The word aion means an age or ages and will not exist after all is in all. Therefore both punishment and aion or age lasting life will have an end.

CHB

CHB , that was about the clearest and shortest summary on the ages and eternal I have ever read ! Good word Sis !

Hbr 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing [that is] not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.

For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 1Cr 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. sounds right to me

the age of Grace that Jesus is ruling since the cross to now even this is the Day of the Lord or 1000 year reign , 1000 years is a Day etc .that is a time or each to be drawn by Gods Spirit being poured out on all flesh and each in their own order ...

Theo,Both the punishment and life have a beginning, right? So how can either one of them be eternal, everlasting, or forever? Have you looked up these words to see what their meanings are? They all do not have a beginning or end.

The eternal life that Jesus talked about was the life in the earthly kingdom which will have an end. When all is in all then time won't exist. The word aion means an age or ages and will not exist after all is in all. Therefore both punishment and aion or age lasting life will have an end.

CHB

CHB , that was about the clearest and shortest summary on the ages and eternal I have ever read ! Good word Sis !

Theo,Both the punishment and life have a beginning, right? So how can either one of them be eternal, everlasting, or forever? Have you looked up these words to see what their meanings are? They all do not have a beginning or end.

That is the general misunderstanding. "Eternal" for example, does not mean backward time, only forward. for example, we have the promise of eternal life, but that does not mean we are promised life before we were born. That would represent time travel.

"Age lasting" is directional, only forward ages, not backward.

The fact of God being eternal in backward time is unique to him, and does not apply to us, as we have a beginning in time, he does not. (I know, you know this, just reviewing facts). Another mistake common to man is thinking God created time,. He did NOT. He created sun, moon, stars as tools whereby we can measure time, but time has always been and will always be. The verb "to be" REQUIRES a time in which to be. God "IS" - present tense of verb "to be." In the beginning "God was;" past tense of verb "to be." In future tomorrows, God "shall be;" future tense of verb "to be."

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The eternal life that Jesus talked about was the life in the earthly kingdom which will have an end. When all is in all then time won't exist. The word aion means an age or ages and will not exist after all is in all. Therefore both punishment and aion or age lasting life will have an end.

I guess I was right then, you folks don't believe in etrnity, nor an eternal God. That will have to be covered in a later post. I'm getting tired now and will call it a day. God bless you and keep you all. And let us find where truth walks in our own day.

Theo,Both the punishment and life have a beginning, right? So how can either one of them be eternal, everlasting, or forever? Have you looked up these words to see what their meanings are? They all do not have a beginning or end.

That is the general misunderstanding. "Eternal" for example, does not mean backward time, only forward. for example, we have the promise of eternal life, but that does not mean we are promised life before we were born. That would represent time travel.

"Age lasting" is directional, only forward ages, not backward.

The fact of God being eternal in backward time is unique to him, and does not apply to us, as we have a beginning in time, he does not. (I know, you know this, just reviewing facts). Another mistake common to man is thinking God created time,. He did NOT. He created sun, moon, stars as tools whereby we can measure time, but time has always been and will always be. The verb "to be" REQUIRES a time in which to be. God "IS" - present tense of verb "to be." In the beginning "God was;" past tense of verb "to be." In future tomorrows, God "shall be;" future tense of verb "to be."

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The eternal life that Jesus talked about was the life in the earthly kingdom which will have an end. When all is in all then time won't exist. The word aion means an age or ages and will not exist after all is in all. Therefore both punishment and aion or age lasting life will have an end.

I guess I was right then, you folks don't believe in etrnity, nor an eternal God. That will have to be covered in a later post. I'm getting tired now and will call it a day. God bless you and keep you all. And let us find where truth walks in our own day.

What CHB is saying to me anyhoo , is that everything is subject to the Lord Jesus Christ and is reigning and all things are subdued in Christ

till the time of the END , Than the eternal God is all in ALL this is what GOD IS Eternal Spirit .. its complete

Hbr 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing [that is] not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.

For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 1Cr 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. sounds right to me

the age of Grace that Jesus is ruling since the cross to now even making all things subject to Him /judments etc lasting life etc .

than the End is

Rev22 1Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb

2through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

3 No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him.

4 They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads.

5And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever.