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Author
Topic: Another restaurant meal ruined (Read 6577 times)

So I took my partner out to dinner for his birthday at an upscale local restaurant - a real extravagance for us nowadays. We were seated, and ordered a couple glasses of wine. Within a few minutes the children at the table nearby began running around the restaurant yelling and carrying on. They climbed up on the banquet seating bench, running back on forth. Their parents were watching but said nothing. This continued for an extended period of time with the parents watching but saying nothing.

Finally, not willing to have our dinner interupted any longer I asked the parents in a calm polite tone "could you please get your children under control their behaviour is very disruptive".

Apparently startled by my speaking up, they corralled the children and had them sit down and behave for the rest of their meal.

However, later, upon leaving the restaurant the father came over to our table and shoved the restaurant menu into my face showing that it was "family night" (kids eat free when accompanied by an adult) saying that I was very rude to complain about his kids. I responded that I thought that he was very rude for putting other customers in a position where they had to complain about his kids. That it was his responsibility to teach his kids proper behavior in a public restaurant, and respect for other paying patrons.

When did it become acceptable to allow your kids to run around an upscale restaurant and stand on the furniture? This has become an all too frequent occurrence here - although it is the first time I have spoken up about it. I usually just suffer in silence.

Was I wrong to speak up? The two other patrons in the restaurant seemed to take the side of the family, but this is a very, very "family values" town. This incident effectively ruined our meal which should have been a special occasion.

Logged

"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."

that sucks dude. try again at another spot you and your partner enjoy. i guess there are 2 sides to this story. personally, i don't think either party was entirely wrong. children should behave in public but family night does allow for a little bit of leeway. i do think it sucked you were put in that situation and i think the resolution was crap.

Management should have advised you, as two adults without children, that it was family night when they greeted you at the host station up at the front door (or when you made the dinner reservation) -- that way you would have had the option to go elsewhere. If I had children and went on a "family night" I might get a bit miffed at what happened, but then again I don't have children, nor do I eat at restaurants that have "family nights."

So basically I would have faulted management and complained to them first. It's their job.

Management should have advised you, as two adults without children, that it was family night when they greeted you at the host station up at the front door (or when you made the dinner reservation) -- that way you would have had the option to go elsewhere. If I had children and went on a "family night" I might get a bit miffed at what happened, but then again I don't have children, nor do I eat at restaurants that have "family nights."

So basically I would have faulted management and complained to them first. It's their job.

I agree. The family menu was a separate menu, which we were not given, so we had no idea - otherwise I would have avoided the place like the plague. However, this was a vey upscale adult environment, not the kind of place that you would even expect to have a family night. But that type of behavior has become very commonplace around here whether there is a family night or not. The parents seem to let their kids run wild with little or no supervision whatsoever. And the staffing at most restaurants has been cut back to the bare bones so getting a managers attention to address the situation is nearly impossible.

Logged

"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."

Usually the hostess has the common sense to segregate "like" patrons together. I remember taking my sister's family to a large well-known seafood palace (yes this was one of the largest restaurants on the East coast). They had two young children so we found ourselves seated in the "play pen" surrounded by patrons all of whom had small children. The hostess should have seated two adults in an area that was a secluded as possible from patrons with children. You should have gotten at least a discount on the meal.

Several of my friends have children so we often go to restaurants on "kids eat free night." It can be very annoying when kids act up but I usually don't say anything because I sympathize and think "there but for the grace of God go I." Remember you only have to put up with them for an hour, those parents have to deal with them 24/7. I don't think you did anything wrong by asking the parents to control their children though.

But that type of behavior has become very commonplace around here whether there is a family night or not.

Family night or not, it's not acceptable behavior to let children do this under most any circumstance. I can see, say a "Chuck E. Cheese" kind of environment being the exception... but that's it..the EXCEPTION.

I would cut dad himself some slack because he was probably tired and dealing with it by letting the kids burn off energy, but it still doesn't excuse a thing.

I don't let my grandchildren misbehave at an I-Hop, so I don't agree with letting the children run wild at your meal either. That was just plain irresponsible. I understand parents being frustrated, but that doesn't excuse letting children do anything they please.

Logged

I've never killed anyone, but I frequently get satisfaction reading the obituary notices.-Clarence Darrow

As a parent myself, in NO WAY is "family night" an excuse to let one's children run wild in a restaurant. Family meals are an excellent opportunity to teach children manners and even more so when out in public. Even very young children are quite capable of sitting at a table. If parents bother to engage their children in appropriate meal-time conversation, they wouldn't be bored to the point of even wanting to run riot. A boisterous table of SEATED children is very different to - and much more acceptable than - children being away from their table, running not only around the other tables, but also ON the furniture.

And people wonder why so many of the youth of today are totally out of control? So many parents try to blame the schools, but learning manners and acceptable public behaviour starts from birth. My ex and I ALWAYS said please and thank-you to our daughter (for example) - yes, from birth. Every single teacher she had would tell us at parent-teacher nights that she was one of the most polite children they'd ever had. That doesn't mean she wasn't a chatter-box or that she never got herself in a bit of bother, but she always treated others with respect. Many of her teachers asked us how we did it - and the answer is simple. We taught her by example from the beginning. Never once did we lecture her on manners or respect - we never had to as she was always treated as we expected her to treat others. The old computer adage of "garbage in, garbage out" works for kids too.

Yeah, yeah, end of rant. People who let their kids run riot in restaurants and other public places really piss me off. Could you tell?

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

I agree Betty, family night is a great idea, it means a night off from cooking for Mum and the kids eat free, but that doesn't mean the kids have the right to run riot and spoil the night for everyone else, parents should be responsible, and that means making sure your kids are well behaved in public.

Was I wrong to speak up? The two other patrons in the restaurant seemed to take the side of the family, but this is a very, very "family values" town.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot. It seems to me that "family values" has become a euphemism for "we're a family and that means we can do what we want". It's that old "for us or against us" mentality that does nobody any good. To my mind, family values means teaching your children the skills they need to get on successfully in life. Letting your kids ruin a night out for others isn't teaching them anything other than disrespect. Family values my ass!

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

that sucks dude. try again at another spot you and your partner enjoy. i guess there are 2 sides to this story. personally, i don't think either party was entirely wrong. children should behave in public but family night does allow for a little bit of leeway. i do think it sucked you were put in that situation and i think the resolution was crap.

best, d

I don't agree with you. Family nite or children should behave in public. And running around restaurant without any reaction from their parents shows that this family did not belong there. Family night means free food for kids. No less no more.

Thanks all for this little bit of validation. I'm glad I'm not alone in expecting parents to at least make an effort to control their kids. I felt terrible about saying something, and it was very out of character for me. However, I just could not sit in silence anymore about it.

Kids will always be rambunctious, that's what kids do - I was as a kid. But you do expect that the parents will make an effort to teach them proper behaviour. That seems to be missing in the community we live in.

Ann, I totally agree with your "rant". In my neck of the woods there seems to be a militant form of "family values" that pratices an ethic of, "we have kids, we can do whatever we want, and you just have to put up with it". If anyone challenges that belief they're looked at like a heretic.

This is the fiirst time (and probably the last) that I have said something to the parents. But I've seen other people speak up and get the same type of reaction from the parents. It's unfortunate that it has become so common place.

Next year, a romantic dinner - at home.

Logged

"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."

When did it become acceptable to allow your kids to run around an upscale restaurant and stand on the furniture? This has become an all too frequent occurrence here - although it is the first time I have spoken up about it. I usually just suffer in silence.

Was I wrong to speak up? The two other patrons in the restaurant seemed to take the side of the family, but this is a very, very "family values" town. This incident effectively ruined our meal which should have been a special occasion.

You were not wrong to speak up. You are preaching to the converted here in this forum, I think. Probably you could have said something to the waiter or waitress and let him/her handle it. But parents should teach their children proper public decorum.

Discipline today is a joke, not only for the very young children, but for the older ones. My great neices and nephews (in their 20's) are rude to their grandparents, sit around during 'family visits' and text message their friends, and basically have no social skills whatsoever. It concerns me that we are raising a society of robots.

I applaud teachers today; they have a great burden to try to maintain any sort of discipline, mostly without parental cooperation. Personally, I wouldn't be a teacher for all the tea in China.

Logged

"Remember my sentimental friend that a heart is not judged by how much you love, but by how much you are loved by others." - The Wizard of Oz

I would have complained myself... if I stayed through the ordeal I would politely given my bill to the father who did not control his children and Thank him for paying... this happens too often... or before I ordered...I would have called the manager over to speak with the offending family and LEFT the premises... but, that's me...

My heart goes out to you! But sometimes I've been at restaurants where one or even two little kids w/parents were actually well-behaved. The obvious reason must be that they have been raised to do so!

Whether a restaurant, grocery or other retail store, and potentially worst of all, an airplane...children should be expected to behave themselves. I was on a "flight from hell" in the early 90s--Chicago to Portland OR--this woman had two kids about four. They were raising hell walking behind me down the jetway so I figured I was in for a bumpy ride, metaphorically speaking. Throughtout the flight the kids ran up and down the aisle, screaming, and constantly ringing the flight attendant call button.

I guess the flight attendants aren't allowed to intervene unless the behavior compromises safety regulations. The mother, of course, did nothing, and seemed if anything to think the kids' behavior was rather cute. I finally caught the mother's eye and gave her a look that could kill. When I got home I wrote to United Airlines about it and they sent me a $200 travel voucher (worth $800 in today's money? LOL) I don't know why infants or little kids have to be on airplanes anyway. They certainly can't have a business appointment. I guess the parent/s take it to see a grandparent or other relative. I swear...if I had ever had a child I would insist the relative do the traveling to see the kid, and spare 200-something passengers the hell of having to sit mute through these sorts of ordeals.

Back in the "old days" when I was a kid,children genereally weren't a problem in public. We were raised to be well-behaved, and we knew if we weren't, there would be consequences when we got home. Man have things sure changed!

I don't agree with you. Family nite or children should behave in public. And running around restaurant without any reaction from their parents shows that this family did not belong there. Family night means free food for kids. No less no more.

Lakis

Very well said! I'm also kinda curious about an 'up-scale' restaurant promoting kids... desperate measure in desperate times I guess! I worked in many very nice restaurants in the past and none particularly wanted kids. Sure, they bring a bit of business (due to the other family members), but things like 'family night' will keep away other customers. I know that it would keep me from spending my money there.

Well I have children. I think that this is NO excuse to have kids run around like lunatics. I know that they are kids, but as parents you need to teach your kids respect for other people.My kids, since they were kids, have always been able to go out to dinner with no problems and it is for respect of other people dining.

As a parent I have taught my kids manners not just for a resteraunt and it still drives me nuts to see kids act out like that. I think you had every right to ask for control as long as it is done right which sounds like you did.

Remind me to never invite any of you along when I take my niece and nephew out for a meal. To me 'family night' in a restaurant means danger, enter at your own risk. I kinda like cheeky bratty kids. Grumpy old people are bores.I'd be more pissed off with the restaurant for not telling you it was family night. Especially if it was an allegedly upmarket establishment. Such places generally do not have such nights and generally don't welcome kids. they really should have warned you.

I applaud teachers today; they have a great burden to try to maintain any sort of discipline, mostly without parental cooperation. Personally, I wouldn't be a teacher for all the tea in China.

I totally agree with you, Alan. One of my best friends was a teacher in a pretty tough town. A kid jumped on her back, and permanently injured her right hand. I wouldn't be a teacher either.

Children need to be taught how to behave in any social situation. There's a huge difference between being in, oh, a public park, where there's playground equipement, and a restaurant, where people are trying to enjoy a meal.

Logged

I've never killed anyone, but I frequently get satisfaction reading the obituary notices.-Clarence Darrow

To me 'family night' in a restaurant means danger, enter at your own risk. I kinda like cheeky bratty kids. Grumpy old people are bores.

And this is why I fear for the younger generation of today. Everyone thinks that it is "cute" or "cheeky" to have kids run amok. Some day they are going to need to understand that others matter too -- the world does not and SHOULD NOT revolve around them. The younger they are taught this, the better for THEM.

It is one thing to have "noisy" children in a restaurant -- god knows when I take my grandkids out that one of them is either crying, screaming or fighting with a sibling -- but they do it at our table, they would not dare start roaming/running around the restaurant. I would never take them to an "upscale restaurant" family night or not. AND.... if they really got too "noisy", I'd ask for some "to go" boxes and home we would go.The fact that I have children and/or grandchildren does not mean that I have the right to intrude on others enjoyment, in an extreme manner.

Hell, I doubt that I ever went to a restaurant more than 2 or 3 times a YEAR while growing up -- why parents take them out weekly -- or more -- I'll never understand. And before anyone tries the old standby of "no stay at home parent to do the cooking", my parents divorced when we were young, so my mother worked all day and then came home to parent (and cook).

Firstly, I salute and applaud you, bmancanfly for standing up to these morons, both big & small. It takes a real man to do what you did in these times of violence at the slightest provocation. Bravo.

Secondly, relevant & reasonable discipline for both young and old at any time is a given . Lack thereof of, simply reflects their family values. These are very basic social protocols. Lack of proper discipline grooming usually is the root for bad manners & behavior throughout adulthood.

And lastly, we are in an era of lawlessness and living in dangerous times. It's very very difficult to reverse these trends. Know your limits and tread carefully but still remain hopeful that you will make it through safely with those you love around you.

Even a bad choice is simply an experience to tell you to eat some where else next time! So barfly, stop flying into the same wire mesh kitchen door to leave the house, try the front door ya? Kapish?

I applaud teachers today; they have a great burden to try to maintain any sort of discipline, mostly without parental cooperation. Personally, I wouldn't be a teacher for all the tea in China.

Good teachers are underpaid & overworked and their school boards and education systems don't always support them. Plus, having a psycho student possibly pointing a Smith and Wesson (25 percent of all adults, and 40 percent of American households, owned at least one firearm) right at you for ticking them off is one real reason to not be a teacher. Any wonder on the chain reaction toward raising a society handmade for doom?

I think another main problem is that people don't realize that family night, in terms of the restaurant, isn't designed for them to bring in their children, so that they may act inappropriately. It's designed to make the restaurant MONEY. As in "Yeah, come on in, your meal will be cheaper for you and your family because it's 'family night'". It's not like if the same family came in the next day, someone would say "oh I'm sorry, your children can't jump around on our furniture and ruin other peoples' meals tonight, because it's not family night. You'll have to come back next tuesday."

Family night=Good meals at an affordable price for people with families, and more money for the restaurant. PLAYGROUNDS are for rambunctious time. That's why PLAYGROUNDS come with PLAYGROUND FURNITURE.

Case in point: You had every right to complain. Especially since the family night menu is a different menu altogether.

When did it become acceptable to allow your kids to run around an upscale restaurant and stand on the furniture? This has become an all too frequent occurrence here - although it is the first time I have spoken up about it. I usually just suffer in silence.

Hey Bman,

I don't really know much about family night but my guess is... It is a regularly slow night and the menu is completely different than the regular one because they would serve low cost, higher profit items and cater that night to people who would not ordinarily go to "upscale restaurant." To these folks, going to where the power lunch people go by day and the arrogant ones flock to at night. They may simply be out of their league and are frozen with fear.

The place may not normally have family night... If they have family night, they may be able to remain in business and provide jobs and services in your community and if they are really upscale, might have a bar where a couple could pass some time.

I haven't said this in awhile but something like... "I've never had sex in a restaurant before" can clear out a few families Have the best dayMichael(who knows you can write a review on YELP and can say, "upscale restaurant redefines the highway term, GAS< FOOD< LODGING")

I haven't said this in awhile but something like... "I've never had sex in a restaurant before" can clear out a few families Have the best dayMichael(who knows you can write a review on YELP and can say, "upscale restaurant redefines the highway term, GAS< FOOD< LODGING")

Hey, that gave me an idea. The next time I'm in a restaurant and meet obnoxious kids with clueless parents.

"Hey kids, gather round. You all are good with spelling right?"

"Right!"

"And you know how to sound out words, like C-A-T is Ccccaaaaaattt, right?"

"Right!"

"Well let me tell you a new word to chant at dinner in front of mommy and daddy .... F... U.... C....."

Okay it's pretty obvious I am lacking sleep. That would be a bit more obnoxious than the kids themselves.

Every past generation says that about the next one. They said it about my generation and the one before and the one before.

The world is falling apart, blah blah blah.

Like I said, you're one hell of a tough crowd.

You miss my point -- my fear for the next generation is not due to them -- it is due to the way they are being raised. Children are children and will always try to act as such -- it is the parent's job to show the proper way to behave -- in public and private. So many parents today are trying to be their children's "best friend" instead of their parents. They live in fear that their children may not "like them" because they make them stop doing something. Parent's should not be their children's best friend -- they should be their children's teachers, mentors and role models. That is how you show true love to your children.

Tough crowd?? Sure -- the sad part is that it should be the crowd that has to be tough -- it should have been the parents.

So many parents today are trying to be their children's "best friend" instead of their parents. They live in fear that their children may not "like them" because they make them stop doing something. Parent's should not be their children's best friend -- they should be their children's teachers, mentors and role models. That is how you show true love to your children.

Absolutely and it's not just that - some parents just can't be bothered and some don't really know any better as they were raised (dragged up) that way themselves. As I said earlier, children learn their most important behavioural lessons from their parents (and other adults in their world) - and that includes parenting skills. We're not born knowing how to parent a child, for the most part, it's something we learn at our parents' knees. I wish I had an answer to that problem.

And yeah, "tough crowd"? I don't think it's too much to ask that other patrons of a restaurant sit at their own table and keep things to a dull roar at the very least. It's one thing to go to a Chuckie-Cheese where children are encouraged to run around - and complain about rowdy children, but another thing entirely to go to a traditional sit-down venue and have to endure kids running back and forth past your table and jumping up and down in the booth behind you.

And yes, kids are getting worse. When I was a teenager, one RARELY heard of teens stabbing, shooting or otherwise killing and maiming each other. Nowadays, you can't pick up a newspaper without reading at least one article where some kid killed or seriously injured another.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

no bocker, i totally 'got your point' i just can't believe that everyone is getting their knickers is such a knot over a couple of bratty kids. you americans are all so uptight, take a chill pill or go eat a vegemite sandwich, there are far more important things to be getting upset about.

And yes, kids are getting worse. When I was a teenager, one RARELY heard of teens stabbing, shooting or otherwise killing and maiming each other. Nowadays, you can't pick up a newspaper without reading at least one article where some kid killed or seriously injured another.

Ann

fear of crime is getting worse but i think in most countries actual crime statistics have fallen or remained stable over time. don't ask me to get the evidence as it's late here and i have to go to the pub and glass a few people.

no bocker, i totally 'got your point' i just can't believe that everyone is getting their knickers is such a knot over a couple of bratty kids. you americans are all so uptight, take a chill pill or go eat a vegemite sandwich, there are far more important things to be getting upset about.

Yes, we are uptight. We just had 8 years of George Bush... you'd be uptight too. BTW, we don't have Vegemite over here (isn't that a New Zealand product?) Maybe that's the secret.

I don't consider it being uptight, or even unrealistic, for two adults to visit a high end dining establishment for a romantic evening, and not expect to have your evening influenced by the poor behavior of someone else's children.

Violent crime in the U.S. has been on a slight incline since 2005. And who do think are more prone to commit these crimes? Children who grew up with poor supervision and/or little to no discipline.

And yes, kids are getting worse. When I was a teenager, one RARELY heard of teens stabbing, shooting or otherwise killing and maiming each other. Nowadays, you can't pick up a newspaper without reading at least one article where some kid killed or seriously injured another.

Also, your article talks about crime in general. I was talking specifically about kids causing serious injury and even death to other kids. The death bit, certainly, was unheard of when I was a kid. Serious injury wasn't anywhere near as common as you hear of now.

And by the way, my knickers are not in a knot, thankyouverymuch. As someone who has also paid good money in a restaurant only to be made miserable by someone else's kids running wild, I can empathise with the OP. If I go into a restaurant and there's already kids running amok, I don't stay, but what is a person supposed to do when the cacophony only starts when you're on your first course? It's annoying as hell.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

no bocker, i totally 'got your point' i just can't believe that everyone is getting their knickers is such a knot over a couple of bratty kids. you americans are all so uptight, take a chill pill or go eat a vegemite sandwich, there are far more important things to be getting upset about.

I was in silent agreement with everything you were saying up to the point where you singled out a single nationality. That's very out of character for you, missy.

By the way, back on topic -- if the OP agrees that management should have informed him and his partner about the "family dining" before being seated, I would also state that it's important for him even after the fact to call said management and state his view. If diners do not inform management of such things they have no way to know that they should adjust their policy, etc. The debate over perceived generational changes in parenting skills is by nature subjective and ultimately a distraction.

I haven't said this in awhile but something like... "I've never had sex in a restaurant before" can clear out a few families Have the best dayMichael(who knows you can write a review on YELP and can say, "upscale restaurant redefines the highway term, GAS< FOOD< LODGING")

Since this was a romantic dinner I think some hand holding and a kiss or two would have parents reining in the rugrats.

When did it become acceptable to allow your kids to run around an upscale restaurant and stand on the furniture? This has become an all too frequent occurrence here - although it is the first time I have spoken up about it. I usually just suffer in silence.

Was I wrong to speak up? The two other patrons in the restaurant seemed to take the side of the family, but this is a very, very "family values" town. This incident effectively ruined our meal which should have been a special occasion.

When did it become acceptable to accost other patrons at a restaurant and criticize the behaviour of their family members?

Swimming against the tide here, yes, you were wrong to speak up in the manner that you dd. There is a time and a place for face to face confrontation and an upscale restaurant is not it. (Duelling, when fashionable was customarily reserved to isolated glades and the banks of the Hudson.

No matter how calm you think you were (although you mention you simmered for a while), the remark you made was inflammatory on its face and the reaction unsurprising.

As others have pointed out, your real "beef" (as it were) is with the restaurant management which did not provide the anticipated atmosphere of calm. The appropriate technique at an upscale restaurant is to summon the waiter and discreetly state the reason that you demand a new table and a refund. Starting quarrels with the other diners is considered déclassé.

no bocker, i totally 'got your point' i just can't believe that everyone is getting their knickers is such a knot over a couple of bratty kids. you americans are all so uptight, take a chill pill or go eat a vegemite sandwich, there are far more important things to be getting upset about.

If you think my point was about these "couple of bratty kids", then I KNOW you missed my point. I have 4 grandkids under the age of 8 -- it takes more than a couple of bratty kids to get my knickers in a knot. I was speaking in the larger context of bad parenting -- this thread merely provided an example. There are many other examples -- which I'll leave for another time.

Mike(who missed the news that we Americans invaded and claimed "The Rock" as our own -- welcome to the fold Ann -- at least you missed having W as your president -- and now that you are an American, you don't have to deal with your dear Queen's consort any longer. )

Mike(who missed the news that we Americans invaded and claimed "The Rock" as our own -- welcome to the fold Ann -- at least you missed having W as your president -- and now that you are an American, you don't have to deal with your dear Queen's consort any longer. )

Hehehehe... well, I am a Yank, just a displaced (misplaced?) one. I've been living on the Rock since spring of 1991 - so I guess I'm a Manx Yank now.

And yes, thank-goodness I missed W - his father was bad enough and don't even get me started on Ronnie Rayguns. The turn of the century was a very embarrassing time to be an ex-pat American abroad though, I can tell you. I suppose I'm lucky in a way - lots of people mistake me for being southern Irish or Canadian because my accent has morphed a bit over the years.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

C'mon Ann, i just got a mortgage - i can hardly affod to eat in anymore. lol

don't worry, i'm just being contrary. i'm finding the discussion quite amusing and if I didn't know any of you better I'd think you were all child hating grumpy ol' folk. Sorry, Philly - you are right, i shouldn't have singled out Americans - damn I disenfranshised my only empathetic ear. Truth be known, i couldn't care less (note the appropriate use of the phrase - not the non-sensical but accepted usage by my American friends 'i could care less')

but, i don't think bad manners extend just to youngin's - my experience is that very few people say please and thank you these days. where i buy my take away coffee in the city virtually noone asks for their coffee with a 'please' attached, and even less say 'thank you' when accepting their coffee. it astounds me. I always order with a please and thank the barista when collecting my coffee.

and who says thank you to the bus driver anymore as they get off the bus. i still do and people think i'm just weird... maybe i am.

and ever watch a pregnant woman or old person standing on a crowded bus or train. rarely do other office people in their 30's, 40's or 50's seem to give up their seats for them these days.

and, yes, i DID GET YOUR POINT BOCKER (shouting). hence my retort that every generation says that about the next generation - you know, kids of today and all that crap. gross generalisations of bad parenting, the youth of today etc etc. are borish and inaccurate.

and who says thank you to the bus driver anymore as they get off the bus. i still do and people think i'm just weird... maybe i am.

steve...when i was living in The City, I took the #5 Sutter to work every day. It was a great ride. Where I got on, I had the bus to myself and I sat in the back with the newspaper. But what made it great was the driver. Years after I had moved, i was at City Hall taking care of business. As the elevator door opened, the gentleman inside looked very familiar. We starred at each other for a second before he recognized me as his passenger and I knew him as my driver. We greeted each other with smiles and high fives.

It was a great feeling. Treating others with respect goes a long wayand the rewards last forever.