“Trump’s grand and vulgar self-absorption is inviting all of us to examine our own selfishness. His ignorance calls us to attend to our own blind spots. The fears that he stokes and the isolation he promotes goad us to be braver, more generous.” - James S. Gordon.

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

Mr. G wrote:
I don't mean to sound crass, but Roach's group is not your traditional or standard Tibetan Buddhist organization. But yes, it is quite sad.

Well, having read Michael Roach's statement linked to from the buddhism.about.com site I am not sure how much can be led directly at his door for this tragedy. They do seem to have acted reasonably in the bizarre events that seem to have led up to the death of Ian Thorson. Having said that though, this was not by any means a conventional 3 year retreat as would be recognized by nearly any other mainstream Tibetan Buddhist organization, I think. And, based only on the videos I have seen of her on the internet, Christie McNally does not appear to me to be the kind of person who could lead a 3 year retreat (or be indeed called "Lama"). I have met several Western leaders (including two women) of successful 3 year retreats and they all give off a much more grounded and altogether less flaky vibe than she does. But maybe without knowing her personally that judgement is unfair. I think perhaps too Michael Roach might do well to consider whether he has the skills to run a 3 year retreat on his own.

I will be remembering all concerned in my prayers as I'm sure everyone else is too.

“Trump’s grand and vulgar self-absorption is inviting all of us to examine our own selfishness. His ignorance calls us to attend to our own blind spots. The fears that he stokes and the isolation he promotes goad us to be braver, more generous.” - James S. Gordon.

It's a very sad and perfectly avoidable situation that comes as the result of crazy people doing crazy things under the guise of Dharma practice. The worst part about this, I fear, is that somehow they believe they are actually practicing Dharma instead of fast traveling down insanity lane.
I can only wish that people open their eyes and step out of their fantasies, learning how to recognize a proper Dharma teacher and a Sangha conducive to Dharma practice.
It's disturbing to realize how people can destroy their lives due to very poor choices that, if correctly made, could have helped them being so much happier.
It's very saddening.

"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

conebeckham wrote:This is very sad and unfortunate. But, frankly, didn't we see some sort of trainwreck coming with regard to these folks?

I have not really followed the story with Michael Roach and Christie McNally in recent years. I remember when Roach came on the scene first being excited that at last there were now Westerners with a full traditional academic training and not just ones like Ole who claimed some supernatural authority for their role. But then he went off on this self-indulgent sidetrack and brought this girl along with him into lala land. I thought it a pity - at the time - but I never thought that his group was likely to see a tragedy like this. The weird posting she made from retreat (how does that work?) shows she was in a very strange state of mind - I hope she recovers. It does prove that the Mara of Spiritual Pride (dga' brod bdud) is very real and very vicious.

“Trump’s grand and vulgar self-absorption is inviting all of us to examine our own selfishness. His ignorance calls us to attend to our own blind spots. The fears that he stokes and the isolation he promotes goad us to be braver, more generous.” - James S. Gordon.

I just hope this is enough to persuade others to stay away from this group.

Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

They didn't know how to live in the desert but perhaps thought they did, they may have wanted to get through a retreat period and thought they could, they apparently didn't know how to gauge their hydration. Being in the southern desert, even in a place they might have thought was safe, is immediately life challenging for anyone, including people who grew up there and know how to live there, - anyone without adequate shelter and resources. It takes some planning and then you always have to plan for the worst case, which can still happen irrespective of planning.

If he died as a result of environmental factors then this is just the Christopher McCandless story revisited.

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

Karma Dorje wrote:Ancillary to this very sad situation, why is it that crazy seems to gravitate to Arizona? It's not such a long time since the James Ray sweat lodge debacle.

It's an odd phenomena.
I live in AZ and it is a beautiful and dare I say powerful place.
It's my feeling that people are drawn to the natural beauty and power but do not know how to deal with it properly leading to tragic outcomes such as this, the sweat lodge thing, and the AZ political landscape.

Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

It's WAY cheaper than California. So it's easier to try things like Arcosanti, which contributes to the alternative lifestyle vibe over time.

Because of Sedona and the pop-culture buildup around Native American spirituality... well, AZ is mixed up in that. If you're inspired to wander around with "feathers and bells and a book of Indian lore," what better place than the home of the Navajo & Hopi nations?

Tucson is a good place to get coffee, even though it's also a good place to get your car stolen.

I get a horrible feeling this may have been at least partly caused by this group's weird view of emptiness - that if you imagine hard enough and have good enough karma & devotion you can change the things you experience to something else that you want/need. This whole group has been a tragedy for a long time.

Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumalthe modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell

gad rgyangs wrote:this shit is getting to be Jim Jones tier. I actually had Christie pegged as the saner of the two of them. guess not.

Aw, come on. It's not Jim Jones or anything like it. Jim Jones convinced his 900 followers to commit suicide and murdered those who wouldn't. Roach and McNally are clearly deluded about their understanding of Dharma and what it takes to practice in the high desert but they are not psychotic mass murderers. This is a tragedy of human vanity and stupidity.

“Trump’s grand and vulgar self-absorption is inviting all of us to examine our own selfishness. His ignorance calls us to attend to our own blind spots. The fears that he stokes and the isolation he promotes goad us to be braver, more generous.” - James S. Gordon.

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde