There is nary a single thing about Buddy's pizza that has gone undetected by the members of this forum and especially what Norma and I have been doing in this thread over the past two months or so. That includes the ovens that Buddy's uses and the bake temperatures and times plus a hundred and one other things. To help get you up to speed on this subject, you might take a look at Reply 126 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81436.html#msg81436, including the links referenced therein. Since you were last on the forum, I have updated Reply 126 several times through the use of edits to make that post the master post on the subject of Buddy's pizzas. But to really capture the essence of the Buddy's pizza in its full glory, one has to read this thread in its entirety.

Peter

Yes, I figured that Norma and you had everything covered, but then Norma asked me about the oven. But having just reread what Norma said, I realize that she was asking not what kind of oven Buddy's "uses," but what oven I remember them using 30 years ago.

Yes, I figured that Norma and you had everything covered, but then Norma asked me about the oven. But having just reread what Norma said, I realize that she was asking not what kind of oven Buddy's "uses," but what oven I remember them using 30 years ago.

Gene,

I addressed the oven question you posed. To answer Norma's oven question, back in 1946, when Buddy's started making pizzas, they had to use a deck oven. Even today, there are pizza operators who specialize in the Detroit style pizza who use deck opens, including the Detroit Style Pizza Co, Loui's, Klausie's (in Raleigh, NC), and Via 313 (in Austin, TX). I'm sure there are others.

I'd be curious to know if there is any Buddy's location, such as the original one, that is still using the original deck oven or replacement deck oven.

No, I donít think you should bulk rise the dough and then only pull off a piece and then bake and dress it. The dough needs to temper in the steel pan until it rises enough. I am still learning on this thread with Peterís help what is best methods for me to try. That is why I did the experiment yesterday, because I want to try and cold ferment my dough in steel pans. I then might need to use a proofing unit to get my dough to temper enough in the steel pan for my earlier customers. I still donít have all of this right in my methods after experimenting for awhile. Buddyís has all this figured out from the history of their sales and from making their pizzas for many years.

Norma

How much time does the dough need to rise in the pan? The emergency dough presumably needs just one hour - or at least the version I made. Obviously, that's a lot more efficient than dealing with an overnight dough. Does the overnight dough taste that much (noticeably) better? I'm not talking about Peter and you, just the average customer. If average customers won't know the difference, then I would do the one-hour rise (more yeast) version.

Do pizzerias that use brick cheese instead of mozzarella do so because of the taste, or is the brick cheese cheaper, or perhaps it is both tastier and cheaper.

I addressed the oven question you posed. To answer Norma's oven question, back in 1946, when Buddy's started making pizzas, they had to use a deck oven. Even today, there are pizza operators who specialize in the Detroit style pizza who use deck opens, including the Detroit Style Pizza Co, Loui's, and Via 313 (in Austin, TX). I'm sure there are others.

I'd be curious to know if there is any Buddy's location, such as the original one, that is still using the original deck oven or replacement deck oven.

Peter

From what I've seen in NYC pizzerias (the "New York slice" guys, not the high end wood-fired oven places, where pizzas bake in 90 seconds), I definitely would go with conveyor ovens for high volume, such as I remember at Buddy's, for consistent bake times if nothing else: you set the conveyor speed for, say, 12 minutes, feed the pans in one end and then they come out at the other in exactly that time. With deck ovens and high volume, where you're putting a pizza in the oven every few seconds, it's really hard to time them; when you have several pizzas in the oven that were put in at different times, you have to keep opening the door and judging visually when a pizza is done.

I wonder if anyone has heard of Singa's Famous Pizza (http://goo.gl/D5X1I), a popular chain in the area, though mostly outside Manhattan. What's unique about them, at least at the location I visited, is that they bake their pizzas in round cake pans and bake them in a deck oven. As I recall, they had only one size pizza.

From what I've seen in NYC pizzerias (the "New York slice" guys, not the high end wood-fired oven places, where pizzas bake in 90 seconds), I definitely would go with conveyor ovens for high volume, such as I remember at Buddy's, for consistent bake times if nothing else: you set the conveyor speed for, say, 12 minutes, feed the pans in one end and then they come out at the other in exactly that time. With deck ovens and high volume, where you're putting a pizza in the oven every few seconds, it's really hard to time them; when you have several pizzas in the oven that were put in at different times, you have to keep opening the door and judging visually when a pizza is done.

I wonder if anyone has heard of Singa's Famous Pizza (http://goo.gl/D5X1I), a popular chain in the area, though mostly outside Manhattan. What's unique about them, at least at the location I visited, is that they bake their pizzas in round cake pans and bake them in a deck oven. As I recall, they had only one size pizza.

Gene,

I am still experimenting with how much time the dough needs to rise in the steel pans using different methods, including using my Hatco Unit to temper some doughs, so I am not really sure of what answer to give you. I can set the Hatco Unit (basically a pizza holding cabinet that can have heat and humidity) to different temperatures, but I still havenít figured out what temperature to do that at either.

At home with the last experiment I did with 1% IDY and a higher final dough temperature it took a shorter amount of time than I thought it would for the dough to temper in the steel pan. I still have a lot of experimenting to do at home and at market. I sure donít have all of this figured out yet.

I agree with you if you can get your dough to rise in the steel pan in an hour, you are doing very well. I also agree with you that it is more efficient using an emergency dough like Buddyís does, than trying to cold ferment a dough like I am trying to do for market. To answer your question about if an overnight dough tastes much better when it is baked, I canít say it does, but for me that might be the way I need to go, instead of trying to make emergency doughs. I am not sure what I am going to do yet. For me the flavors of the melted cheese, or cheeses, caramelized edges, soft and airy texture of the crumb, caramelized edges and crispy bottom crust is what I really like about the Buddyís clone pizzas that turn out right for me.

To answer your question if pizzerias used brick cheese instead of mozzarella for the taste, I would say yes. As I posted before a mild white cheddar and mozzarella blend also give the Buddyís clone pizza almost the same taste as using brick cheese alone. The mild white cheddar does have a higher fat content like brick cheese. I am not sure if the brick cheese purchased though a foodservice is cheaper or not. I am wondering about cheese prices since I saw on the news about milk prices might really be going up. I really donít know what the prices of brick cheese are from a foodservice distributor. I havenít found one yet in my area.

What I am really trying to do is produce an ďold schoolĒ Buddyís pizza like when they baked in a deck oven, but I really donít know how they tasted back then, so really I might not achieve what I want.

Are you planning on selling Buddyís clone pizzas commercially in your area?

Well, the roads were sure slippery in some places going over to market today where the snow was drifting from it being so windy. Some stretches of the road were dry and other stretches of the road for a long distance were slippery and had a lot of snow on them. My van did slip a few times. I am not crazy about driving on snow covered roads, even if it is only to market.

There was some good news though today. The processing caps do fit on my larger steel pans, in addition to the smaller steel pans, the Buddyís clone dough was easy to mix and it was warmer at market today while I was working. Last week two stand holders had taken a saw blade and put the thermostat up, by sticking it in a small spot in the locked box. I guess market people didnít see how hot it was back in our area and didnít turn it down since last week and neither did the two stand holders that had turned the thermostat up. Thankfully I wasnít involved in doing that. It was 72 degrees F at market today without me even having to turn my small heater on.

I tried for a final dough temperature of about 90 degrees F with 1% IDY and no salt, and a hydration of 72% today. I did use really warm water, but still am not sure what my final dough temperature was because now my digital thermometer is broken. I had to use my one other thermometer I had at market and really couldnít tell what final dough temperature I had, but it looked to be a little over 90 degrees F. I have no idea what will happen with that.

The Buddyís clone dough mixed easily on speeds 1, 2 and 3 with only the flat beater. The dough really wasnít sticky and I didnít need to do any stretches and folds. The mix in the Hobart is very fast for a Buddyís clone dough using this method. At home my Kitchen Aid mixer does also mix fast with the flat beater, but not as fast and or good as when using the Hobart mixer. Until I divided, scaled, and formed dough balls the dough was starting to get dry. The one picture of the dough right after the picture of one dough ball with the poppy seeds on it, it can be seen on that picture of how fast the dough wanted to get dry. It had some cracks on it until I formed more dough balls. Of course included also in this time frame was when I oiled the steel pans with Canola oil. I donít know if I will have to oil the pans first before I mix the dough or not in the future. The poppy seeds were placed on the one small dough ball to watch how it ferments until tomorrow. One large dough ball was just oiled and put into the pizza prep fridge so I could also see what happens with that one dough ball and maybe compare how these two methods might work. The rest of the dough balls were place into the steel pans and put into the deli case. I would have room for more pans in the deli case if these methods work out. Hopefully tomorrow things will work out okay.

I am still experimenting with how much time the dough needs to rise in the steel pans using different methods, including using my Hatco Unit to temper some doughs, so I am not really sure of what answer to give you. I can set the Hatco Unit (basically a pizza holding cabinet that can have heat and humidity) to different temperatures, but I still havenít figured out what temperature to do that at either.

At home with the last experiment I did with 1% IDY and a higher final dough temperature it took a shorter amount of time than I thought it would for the dough to temper in the steel pan. I still have a lot of experimenting to do at home and at market. I sure donít have all of this figured out yet.

I agree with you if you can get your dough to rise in the steel pan in an hour, you are doing very well. I also agree with you that it is more efficient using an emergency dough like Buddyís does, than trying to cold ferment a dough like I am trying to do for market. To answer your question about if an overnight dough tastes much better when it is baked, I canít say it does, but for me that might be the way I need to go, instead of trying to make emergency doughs. I am not sure what I am going to do yet. For me the flavors of the melted cheese, or cheeses, caramelized edges, soft and airy texture of the crumb, caramelized edges and crispy bottom crust is what I really like about the Buddyís clone pizzas that turn out right for me.

To answer your question if pizzerias used brick cheese instead of mozzarella for the taste, I would say yes. As I posted before a mild white cheddar and mozzarella blend also give the Buddyís clone pizza almost the same taste as using brick cheese alone. The mild white cheddar does have a higher fat content like brick cheese. I am not sure if the brick cheese purchased though a foodservice is cheaper or not. I am wondering about cheese prices since I saw on the news about milk prices might really be going up. I really donít know what the prices of brick cheese are from a foodservice distributor. I havenít found one yet in my area.

What I am really trying to do is produce an ďold schoolĒ Buddyís pizza like when they baked in a deck oven, but I really donít know how they tasted back then, so really I might not achieve what I want.

Are you planning on selling Buddyís clone pizzas commercially in your area?

Norma

I'm a commercial real estate broker in NYC. A couple of my customers expressed interest in starting a business with me. For me, it's decide what I want to do and then find a suitable location, but one of my partners owns/operates multiple concepts, so for him it's find a good location and then decide on a menu. He, like me, is from Detroit, so I'm sure he's open to offering Detroit style pizzas, but it depends on the location. The other two are the "money guys" (and have great experience and track records as food operators; I'm really a real estate guy), so they have the most say. If we find a great store that happens to be next to a pizza stand, then we probably wouldn't want to do pizza, too, but would offer something different, such as burgers or espresso. And so on. Not so easy finding a great space that three people will agree on!

I showed what I think is a great cafe spot and showed it to another potential partner, who agreed with me, but I have to work with him on his own needs first and then the landlord is not eager to have a food use in the space (currently, it's a hair salon), so we have to convince the landlord, and even then, we might have to bid against other potential tenants. And then I have to bake a Detroit style pizza for my potential partner and see if he likes it...

I agree with you if you can get your dough to rise in the steel pan in an hour, you are doing very well. I also agree with you that it is more efficient using an emergency dough like Buddyís does, than trying to cold ferment a dough like I am trying to do for market. To answer your question about if an overnight dough tastes much better when it is baked, I canít say it does, but for me that might be the way I need to go, instead of trying to make emergency doughs. I am not sure what I am going to do yet. For me the flavors of the melted cheese, or cheeses, caramelized edges, soft and airy texture of the crumb, caramelized edges and crispy bottom crust is what I really like about the Buddyís clone pizzas that turn out right for me.

I think it's important to keep in mind that a Buddy's dough cannot produce much flavor by itself. Remember that a Buddy's dough comprises only flour, water and yeast. There is no sugar or oil (by their admission) and, I contend, no salt or an imperceptible amount of salt. The flour itself has a protein content of 12.2%, which offers only a modest amount of flavor. Moreover, after only 1-2 hours of room temperature fermentation, there aren't going to be a lot of byproducts of fermentation to contribute to crust flavor. So, the predominant crust flavors will be those of natural wheat and yeast and any flavors attributable to the baking process itself (mostly the effects of the Maillard reactions).

Where the flavors of the pizza come into play are the flavors due to the brick cheese, especially the crispy cheese edges, and the flavors contributed by the sauce and toppings. They will provide the saltiness and other flavors. To its credit, Buddy's has chosen to use high quality ingredients, from the flour, to the cheese (brick cheese), to the Stanislaus tomato products, and to toppings like the Margherita coarse grind pepperoni.

It seems to me to be axiomatic that using a prolonged cold fermentation will add considerably more flavor to the crust itself than will a brief room temperature fermentation. That apparently is what the Hunt boys at Via 313 do. Norma may discover the same benefits.

I'm a commercial real estate broker in NYC. A couple of my customers expressed interest in starting a business with me. For me, it's decide what I want to do and then find a suitable location, but one of my partners owns/operates multiple concepts, so for him it's find a good location and then decide on a menu. He, like me, is from Detroit, so I'm sure he's open to offering Detroit style pizzas, but it depends on the location. The other two are the "money guys" (and have great experience and track records as food operators; I'm really a real estate guy), so they have the most say. If we find a great store that happens to be next to a pizza stand, then we probably wouldn't want to do pizza, too, but would offer something different, such as burgers or espresso. And so on. Not so easy finding a great space that three people will agree on!

I showed what I think is a great cafe spot and showed it to another potential partner, who agreed with me, but I have to work with him on his own needs first and then the landlord is not eager to have a food use in the space (currently, it's a hair salon), so we have to convince the landlord, and even then, we might have to bid against other potential tenants. And then I have to bake a Detroit style pizza for my potential partner and see if he likes it...

Thanks for telling me what all would be involved if you and your friends decide to maybe try some kind of food concept in NYC. I agree that it wonít be easy to find a great space that three people would agree on. It would be interesting if you and your partners decided to open a Detroit style pizzeria in NYC. I wonder how people in NYC would like that style of pizza. It sounds like Detroit style pizza businesses have taken off in other areas of the US though. I have been to NYC many different times and tasted different pizzas there.

Lol, I never heard of a Detroit style Coney Island hot dog, but did eat at Nathanís at Coney Island different times. Thanks for the link!

What worries me about my dough balls in the steel pans is that I wonder if they might over ferment and rise too much until tomorrow morning. While I was cutting, scaling and balling before I put the dough balls in the steel pans, the dough did feel like it was fermenting already. When I balled the dough balls, I could see and feel bubbles in the dough. Until I got everything together to oil the steel pans and then cut, scaled, balled and oiled the dough balls it was probably about 45 minutes until they got into the steel pans and got their processing caps on. It was then straight into the deli case, but after just a little while the whole tops of the processing caps were full of moisture and cloudy on the top of the processing caps.

I guess I could punch down the dough balls, then let them temper again and hope for the best tomorrow if the dough balls ferment too much.

I wonder if anyone has heard of Singa's Famous Pizza (http://goo.gl/D5X1I), a popular chain in the area, though mostly outside Manhattan. What's unique about them, at least at the location I visited, is that they bake their pizzas in round cake pans and bake them in a deck oven. As I recall, they had only one size pizza.

Gene,

I never heard of Singaís Famous Pizza, but many pizzas are baked in pans in a deck oven.

I do make Greek style pizzas at market with some pictures being at Reply 462 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,691.msg208300.html#msg208300 and other pictures of mine scattered throughout that thread and they are something like Detroit style pizzas. being they are made in a steel pan and the edges are caramelized and the bottom crust is crispy, but the texture of crumb from the same recipe I use for my NY style Lehmann dough doesnít get the same as the Buddyís clone doughs. Another Reply 448 of mine was at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,691.msg196025.html#msg196025 That dough is also proofed in a pan. I use a round heavier steel pan for the Greek style pizzas. I really also like different recipes for Greek style pizzas in that thread, even though I donít use those recipes for my Greek style pizzas, because it is just easier to use my same Lehmann dough for those Greek style pizzas.

I think there are many kinds of pizzas that are made in steel pans. I also made Sicilian pizzas in a steel pan like I posted at Reply 448 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18281.msg206200.html#msg206200 and other places on that thread. Those Sicilian pizzas almost look like Detroit-style pizzas, but are also not as light in the texture of the crumb. I think the Sicilian pizzas I made are more like a Jetís pizza, but donít really know since there was never a final dough formulation for a Jetís pizza on the Jetís thread.

I never heard of Singaís Famous Pizza, but many pizzas are baked in pans in a deck oven.

I do make Greek style pizzas at market with some pictures being at Reply 462 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,691.msg208300.html#msg208300 and other pictures of mine scattered throughout that thread and they are something like Detroit style pizzas. being they are made in a steel pan and the edges are caramelized and the bottom crust is crispy, but the texture of crumb from the same recipe I use for my NY style Lehmann dough doesnít get the same as the Buddyís clone doughs. Another Reply 448 of mine was at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,691.msg196025.html#msg196025 That dough is also proofed in a pan. I use a round heavier steel pan for the Greek style pizzas. I really also like different recipes for Greek style pizzas in that thread, even though I donít use those recipes for my Greek style pizzas, because it is just easier to use my same Lehmann dough for those Greek style pizzas.

I think there are many kinds of pizzas that are made in steel pans. I also made Sicilian pizzas in a steel pan like I posted at Reply 448 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18281.msg206200.html#msg206200 and other places on that thread. Those Sicilian pizzas almost look like Detroit-style pizzas, but are also not as light in the texture of the crumb. I think the Sicilian pizzas I made are more like a Jetís pizza, but donít really know since there was never a final dough formulation for a Jetís pizza on the Jetís thread.

Norma

Singa's is owned by Indians, so maybe there's an Indian pizza? The one time I went was with an Indian guy, who raved about the cheese and jalapeno pie. Anyway, it's interesting that cake-pan-in-deck-oven style is popular, or at least known, in so many places. To my knowledge, Singa's are the only ones who do it that way in the NYC area and I think they have only one location in Manhattan, with the rest in the boroughs, New Jersey, etc.

Definitely a difference in crumb between Sicilian and Detroit style. Sicilian, at least those I've had in NYC and Detroit, are heavy and "bready." Detroit style definitely lighter; I'm guessing it's because of the higher hydration? And then there's the crust.

My impression/understanding is that NYC Sicilian pizza is just the the regular round-pizza dough, spread out in a pan and given time to rise in the pan; certainly, that's the case with all the other bread-based items, again, at least in NYC. Garlic knots, stromboli, calzones - all made with the same dough they use for the pizzas.