Russia trucking off the 777 parts with missile impact and penetration contact marks. The bodies with SA-11 warhead shrapnel will never be found or recovered. Of course the airline will have a seating manifest and the missing bodies will be the ones all sitting together in the locations the missile or missiles struck and the same locations missing pieces of the jet cut up by the Russians and taken away. Of course the pilots are missing as well since the cockpit was hit by shrapnel, but managed to come down in one piece after the SA-11 buzz-saw cut it off. Surprised the Russians have not claimed the center fuel tank exploded. Worked for Bill Clinton in TWA 800.

“So the 28 nation NATO, has lost the ability to interact with Ukraine because Russia is more powerful than all of us combined now?”

Russia is already on a war footing, their troops are on their borders ready to go. NATO has nothing ready to go. When the US wanted to do their 10,000 troop surge several years ago, it took more than 90 days to put it together.

NATO troops arriving would be read by Russia as an invasion force to aid Ukraine in ethnic cleansing of Russians from eastern Ukraine. That is the excuse Russia would use, and the logistics are all on Russia’s side, it is literally their back yard.

You mean the U.S. and the other NATO nations don’t have anybody in NATO anymore, they all went home, they can’t even secure a crash site in a friendly nation today?

I don’t know what kind of silliness you are trying to promote, but arguing that Russia so powerful that it has total control over European affairs, is silly, your man is not the 800 pound gorilla in charge of Europe.

This is an interesting technique, trying to intimidate the world like you are.

Other than being an overt act of war, why cant NATO conduct an exercise from Ukrainian territory and secure the crash site? Stupid question, I know, so flame away.

No sort of military action of any sort is useful in this situation. But there is a non-military response that would have immediate and long lasting positive effects.

This incident affects every airline and every country which travels worldwide; Also, obviously, nationals of every country who travel regularly or even occasionally. The threat is universal.

Both the International Airlines Associations, and the International Pilots Union (and all national FAA equivalents,) should issue the following declaration :

a) Civil and Commercial flights will be suspended to and from any country which does not allow immediate access (no minimum time restriction) to an accident scene, by the Airline(s) involved, and one other competent accident investigation team, each, of their choosing.

b) Further, The entire accident scene shall be secured and no disturbance will be allowed of its debris, remains of victims, the victims' property, instruments, all flight recorders.

Further, this sanction shall extend to all flights of all airlines whose previous stop are anywhere within the accident site country, or whose flight will continue to the accident site country. No interference, physical, political or military will be allowed with accident investigators. The responsible country is the ultimate party responsible for preventing violations of the rules above.

If there are violations of rules a)or b) the sanction to and from the responsible country will be in force until the accident investigation is satisfactorily concluded.

The beauty of this approach, is that no military action whatsoever needs to be contemplated, unless the responsible country requests it.

In areas of ongoing non-conventional warfare, military aid shall not be allowed from any "sponsor" of either side of the ongoing insurrection, civil war, etc.

Food for thought. I didn't feel it necessary to mention the uselessness of allowing the U.N. to have any role in airline accident investigations.

“Well, for starters, one could determine whether it was an air-to-air missile versus ground-to-air. Which, in turn would make the Russians shut up about some of their conspiracy theories.”

We already know it was a ground to air missile. The Ukraine had them as well as the separatists.

Apparently Ukraine military jets escorted the airliner until 3 minutes before the shoot down. Don’t you find that odd? Could this perhaps trick the separatists into thinking it was a military aircraft? None of this evidence is going to come from the crash site.

At some point, as with any investigation, we have to ask who had the motive. Who would most likely gain from this?

Would it be the Ukraine, NATO, Russia or the separatists? I don’t trust any of them, but you know who I trust the least? You got it... Obama.

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