Originally posted by Surtur No, it's like wanting to try to self proclaimed handy man because a bunch of potential corruption and scandals surround the professional.

And maybe, if you wanna stick with that example, lets throw in the "professionals" forgetting very basic protocols they should have known when it comes to the job that might raise alarm bells. Then let us assume those meant to hold the professionals in check are shady as f*ck too and not to be trusted.

Now that example sounds a bit more like what we were dealing with, IMO.

There were indeed better candidates.

I'll have to disagree again, Surtur. Most other candidates were not plagued by scandals like Trump and Hillary were, and a few were much more in tune with the core values of each of their parties. On top of alleged sexual assault/harassment, bankruptcies, and spreading conspiracy theories, Trump was being sued for fraud, for ****'s sake. He was clearly the most corrupt candidate who ran for president in 2016.

Sure, people were tired of career politicians like Hillary, but you and almost 63 million other Americans took a gamble on the one candidate who was not only less qualified and experienced, but was also much shadier than them all. It wasn't a safe bet, nor was it a smart one.

Trump claimed to have quick and easy fixes for everything from the economy, to healthcare, to illegal immigration, to terrorism...in spite of the lack of experience and qualifications, and the fact that none of those issues are as simplistic as he implied them to be. Almost a year in, he's proven himself ineffectual in those areas, has divided several groups in the country with his polarizing viewpoints, and is being investigated for collusion with the Russian government for tampering with the election, along with the rest of his cabinet.

Originally posted by Surtur Lol, after the Golden Globes people now want Oprah to run in 2020. Identity politics ain't going anywhere. And we both know if she ran and lost racism would be blamed.

Both sides do it. Trying to appeal to Christians or the middle class is identity politics, it is just not as utterly blatant and obnoxious as when the Dems pull their shit.

Regarding Oprah, it's like I said with Trump and Hillary...they've developed a cult of personality, and Americans seem to eat that shit up more than anyone else on the planet.

I don't think identity politics and blind party loyalty are going away anytime soon, either...but they need to if any real and significant changes which benefit most, if not all, Americans are going to be made.

Personally, I find it that much more sickening when Republicans use their Christian beliefs to pander to the Christian voter base, and when implementing it in their legislation.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol I'll have to disagree again, Surtur. Most other candidates were not plagued by scandals like Trump and Hillary were, and a few were much more in tune with the core values of each of their parties. On top of alleged sexual assault/harassment, bankruptcies, and spreading conspiracy theories, Trump was being sued for fraud, for ****'s sake. He was clearly the most corrupt candidate who ran for president in 2016.

Sure, people were tired of career politicians like Hillary, but you and almost 63 million other Americans took a gamble on the one candidate who was not only less qualified and experienced, but was also much shadier than them all. It wasn't a safe bet, nor was it a smart one.

Trump claimed to have quick and easy fixes for everything from the economy, to healthcare, to illegal immigration, to terrorism...in spite of the lack of experience and qualifications, and the fact that none of those issues are as simplistic as he implied them to be. Almost a year in, he's proven himself ineffectual in those areas, has divided several groups in the country with his polarizing viewpoints, and is being investigated for collusion with the Russian government for tampering with the election, along with the rest of his cabinet.

Regarding Oprah, it's like I said with Trump and Hillary...they've developed a cult of personality, and Americans seem to eat that shit up more than anyone else on the planet.

I don't think identity politics and blind party loyalty are going away anytime soon, either...but it needs to if any real and significant changes which benefit most, if not all, Americans are going to be made.

Personally, I find it that much more sickening when Republicans use their Christian beliefs to pander to the Christian voter base, and when implementing it in their legislation.

You bring up good points. So from the GOP side of things, who would you have voted for, if they made it to the general election? Rand Paul? He seemed to be fairly scandal free.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol I'll have to disagree again, Surtur. Most other candidates were not plagued by scandals like Trump and Hillary were, and a few were much more in tune with the core values of each of their parties. On top of alleged sexual assault/harassment, bankruptcies, and spreading conspiracy theories, Trump was being sued for fraud, for ****'s sake. He was clearly the most corrupt candidate who ran for president in 2016.

Sure, people were tired of career politicians like Hillary, but you and almost 63 million other Americans took a gamble on the one candidate who was not only less qualified and experienced, but was also much shadier than them all. It wasn't a safe bet, nor was it a smart one.

Trump claimed to have quick and easy fixes for everything from the economy, to healthcare, to illegal immigration, to terrorism...in spite of the lack of experience and qualifications, and the fact that none of those issues are as simplistic as he implied them to be. Almost a year in, he's proven himself ineffectual in those areas, has divided several groups in the country with his polarizing viewpoints, and is being investigated for collusion with the Russian government for tampering with the election, along with the rest of his cabinet.

Regarding Oprah, it's like I said with Trump and Hillary...they've developed a cult of personality, and Americans seem to eat that shit up more than anyone else on the planet.

I don't think identity politics and blind party loyalty are going away anytime soon, either...but they need to if any real and significant changes which benefit most, if not all, Americans are going to be made.

Personally, I find it that much more sickening when Republicans use their Christian beliefs to pander to the Christian voter base, and when implementing it in their legislation.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol I'll have to disagree again, Surtur. Most other candidates were not plagued by scandals like Trump and Hillary were, and a few were much more in tune with the core values of each of their parties. On top of alleged sexual assault/harassment, bankruptcies, and spreading conspiracy theories, Trump was being sued for fraud, for ****'s sake. He was clearly the most corrupt candidate who ran for president in 2016.

It wasn't my intention to suggest every candidate was corrupt. Rather I was talking about Hilary and those around here, mentioning protocols was referencing the email scandal, and the shady thing was about her and those around her.

I don't think Bernie was corrupt, for instance. Nor Ted Cruz.

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Sure, people were tired of career politicians like Hillary, but you and almost 63 million other Americans took a gamble on the one candidate who was not only less qualified and experienced, but was also much shadier than them all. It wasn't a safe bet, nor was it a smart one.

Some people were fed up with the way things were going, I don't blame them. All I am saying is it's not hard to see why this happened and how to stop it from happening again.

Neither candidate was a smart bet, it turns out. And before someone comes in screaming "she's better!" my point is to look at what is happening now. Multiple investigations reopened. You can say it's a distraction tactic, but I think they'd still do this if she had won the presidency, and either way we potentially would just be dealing with various scandals, no matter how warranted or not they might be.

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Trump claimed to have quick and easy fixes for everything from the economy, to healthcare, to illegal immigration, to terrorism...in spite of the lack of experience and qualifications, and the fact that none of those issues are as simplistic as he implied them to be. Almost a year in, he's proven himself ineffectual in those areas, has divided several groups in the country with his polarizing viewpoints, and is being investigated for collusion with the Russian government for tampering with the election, along with the rest of his cabinet

Indeed. I will argue I think he accomplished a not shitty amount of things, it's just he is his own worst enemy and mouths off and so any achievement is immediately undone.

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Regarding Oprah, it's like I said with Trump and Hillary...they've developed a cult of personality, and Americans seem to eat that shit up more than anyone else on the planet.

Indeed they do. And if people think America is already a joke, Oprah vs Trump in 2020 will push us even further into that territory.

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I don't think identity politics and blind party loyalty are going away anytime soon, either...but they need to if any real and significant changes which benefit most, if not all, Americans are going to be made.

Bingo.

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Personally, I find it that much more sickening when Republicans use their Christian beliefs to pander to the Christian voter base, and when implementing it in their legislation.

Neat, personally I find it all just as sad. Religion is just another way to manipulate people, just like the gender or race thing.

Originally posted by Surtur It wasn't my intention to suggest every candidate was corrupt. Rather I was talking about Hilary and those around here, mentioning protocols was referencing the email scandal, and the shady thing was about her and those around her.

You're still sticking to that 'it's a choice between Hillary who is corrupt and Donald who says means things' narrative you've built in 2016, which of course completely ignores the reality of [back then] Donald Trump.

Originally posted by Robtard You're still sticking to that 'it's a choice between Hillary who is corrupt and Donald who says means things' narrative you've built in 2016, which of course completely ignores the reality of [back then] Donald Trump.

It's more or less just both were shitty, and people needed decided who they thought was shittier.

Originally posted by dadudemon You bring up good points. So from the GOP side of things, who would you have voted for, if they made it to the general election? Rand Paul? He seemed to be fairly scandal free.

Thanks, DDM. It's obviously harder for me to identify with the GOP candidates, but if I were to support them, my vote would have been a toss up for either Kasich or Paul, but leaning more toward Kasich.

I don't agree with either's pro-life positions.

I agree with a few of Kasich's stances on climate change and the environment, and oppose him on things like the Keystone XL pipeline and his idea that the EPA should not regulate things like carbon emissions. I don't know Paul's environmental viewpoints.

I highly disagree with Paul's idea of keeping vaccinations optional and up to the child's parents.

I agree with Paul that the war with Iraq left a power vacuum which allowed ISIS to gain power and influence in the destabilized region, and for opposing sanctions against Iran and Russia.

I respect Kasich's positions on gun control more than Paul's call for no gun control.

I also respect that Kasich attempted to bridge the rift between Ohio police and the communities they serve, as well as for supporting the use of body cameras to better hold them accountable.

Originally posted by Robtard I know you're partial to Rand Paul, but imo you'll be hard pressed to find someone better suited for POTUS on the Right who ran in 2016. Policies, history and how they handled themselves.

No, not really to Rand Paul. More like, "he's not terrible." I agreed with Gary Johnson more than Rand Paul on policies.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol Thanks, DDM. It's obviously harder for me to identify with the GOP candidates, but if I were to support them, my vote would have been a toss up for either Kasich or Paul, but leaning more toward Kasich.

I don't agree with either's pro-life positions.

I agree with a few of Kasich's stances on climate change and the environment, and oppose him on things like the Keystone XL pipeline and his idea that the EPA should not regulate things like carbon emissions. I don't know Paul's environmental viewpoints.

I highly disagree with Paul's idea of keeping vaccinations optional and up to the child's parents.

I agree with Paul that the war with Iraq left a power vacuum which allowed ISIS to gain power and influence in the destabilized region, and for opposing sanctions against Iran and Russia.

I respect Kasich's positions on gun control more than Paul's call for no gun control.

I also respect that Kasich attempted to bridge the rift between Ohio police and the communities they serve, as well as for supporting the use of body cameras to better hold them accountable.

This is a very nice summary on positions. Please post more things in the GDF.

We agree on a majority of your positions, as well.

I think there is a real "primed environment" in the GOP to have a candidate that appeals to Democrats, appeals to Libertarians, and appeals to many GOP. That candidate would be better than anything any party has to offer. But that candidate would be hurt running with a D or and R in front of their name.