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Goo (Gelatinous Goo)

After spending some time with the game and checking trough the revisions out there, I got the impression that AHQ could have been one of the best dungeon crawlers ever, unfortunately, some flaws brewed into the game mechanics may spoil the fun if a couple of tweaks are not implemented.

From what I've read online, seems to me that the main and most criticized flaw is the “doorway exploit” as I named it, and I assume that everyone knows what I'm typing about. Given the above, I would even dare to assert that such culprit is often considered as the main fun breaker, preventing AHQ from receiving the proper recognition it deserves. Even tough the need for such a remedy, I haven't been able to find (most probably I'm missing something) a mod rule that deals effectively with this issue, providing a decisive solution to the matter.

So, I'm proposing the following rule to deal with the so called “doorway exploit” issue. Of course it's just an idea and hopefully it will be improved with feedback from more experienced players, as I just recently discovered this interesting game.

All I can say at this point is that the fix has improved my game experience so far, and has given the game the added difficulty and risk I was looking for, although testing is still in progress.

Looks daunting I know, I probably wrote more lines than needed but it actually becomes pretty simple once you get the hold of it. At the end of the day it's all about forcing the Heroes inside the room and exposing them, no more hiding.

This rule addresses a very specific aspect of gameplay, it wont mess with anything else. My ultimate goal is to keep things as close to the original experience as possible, just fixing the broken details, the doorway exploit was at the top of my list.

Slev wrote:

Plus there is very little to stop the heroes merely falling back through the door for a better position.

As I wrote under Notes:

RECIVS wrote:

When their turn comes, Heroes can choose to exit the room and position themselves to use the “doorway exploit” but not without having suffered some wounds.

It´s a dungeon crawler experience after all, dungeons are supposed to be dangerous and deadly, Heroes are expected to perform heroically and chances of survival should be minimal. If the players want to simply fall back and take advantage of an exploit that makes things easier for them, then no rule could ever prevent them from doing exactly that, that`s not a matter of flawed rules to begin with, it´s a matter of attitude towards the game and no house rule can change that. This rule of mine, however, leaves the decision to the player, the exploit can be used or not depending on your mood and circumstances. The player can still take advantage of the exploit, but not without having suffered a couple of wounds, I believe it balances the scale a bit anyway.

Hoonuff wrote:

I use warhammer quest doors because they are 2 wide, pretty much fixed the problem.

I'm aware that such a solution constitutes a simple fix, though IMHO it does not tackle the core issue: the heroes are still fighting trough a doorway, they´re still getting cover, fighting from a relatively comfortable position (specially if they have diagonally attacking weapons) there´s no exposure, no sense of risk and danger even tough they´re supposed to be the surprised ones.

If you think about it, how proper and "realistic" is for a dungeon crawler to allow the heroes to reveal (without magic) the contents of a room without even entering? Monsters are supposed to be blocking the entrance and therefore the LOS, not mentioning the stress of battle and surprise. I know that, realistically speaking, it can be done depending on the doorway´s position, room layout and other circumstances, but you would need additional fine tuning rules to model that adequately, though I guess it would end up being another type of game.

What part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?

Don't you open that trapdoor!

This is why I gave all figures diagonals and the long-weapons the ability to attack past a friend. Mix in some monsters with ranged weapons and such, and add the two-space doors and the whole combat is blown wide open.

That was exactly my point. I know your revision solves the matter by changing some mechanics, which I find very interesting and I'm convinced they infuse new life to the system. I keep interest in this game mostly because those revisions are available to experiment with, the game isn´t dead yet.

However, with this rule you don´t have to mod or change anything for movement or attack, it just fixes one evident flaw brewed into the rules, it lets you experience the original game without it´s most criticized glitch, but at the same time leaves you the choice of exploiting it or not. I couldn´t think of something simpler than that

My idea was to fix, not to mod yet. I'm looking for the original experience without the hassle of coming up with new movement and attack rules, that would have been more complicated than simply forcing the Heroes to go inside a room. I know there are more simple fixes (like the expanded doorway) but as I wrote previously, those are not solving the core of the issue IMHO.

I'm still playing around with the original mechanics, I'm in the middle of my first quest and exploring some of your material along the way, everything seems very cool but there's so little time...anyway I'm pacing things together and going step by step, this is a game I'm interested in. I´ve just received the big map pack btw,the new quest rooms are real nice, more choices, tends toward the RPG side of the line if you ask me, and overall it´s becoming really interesting

Euhm, I've always felt the doorway "exploit" was correct. If YOU were armed with only a sword and shield, and had to cope with 10's of Orks or Skaven, would you run into the room? NO. You would take stance at the doorway, because there you fight one-to-one. It's realistic. It's like that. And that's the way it is.

Often Heroes will abuse the power of doors or small gaps,As a Dungeon Master I could never understand how one hero can literally block ten skeletons in aroom all by himself waiting to knock them down one at a time at his convenience, while the furiousopponents wait in line. Consequently the following rule was devised that can not only solve theproblem but also create a bit of fun.

Note that this rule can be used by heroes and monsters.

Assume the situation where there are five Skeletons in a room and in the doorway there is a warrior who is fighting one of the skeletons. The other four skeletons are stuck in the room and can do nothing.

New rule:The new rule is that as an ACTION you can try to push an enemy one space instead of making an attack. Or you can try to push one friendly character into an enemy to push them both one space. So the skeleton in the doorway can try to push the warrior back one space allowing the other skeletons out of the room. Or one of the other four skeletons can push the skeleton in the doorway into the warrior pushing them both one space once again allowing the skeletons out of the room.

You resolve the push by rolling a Dice and adding your Strength value, the enemy does the same and the one who obtained the highest number wins.

In the example above

>> If the warrior won he keeps his footing and nothing happens, >> If the skeleton won then the warrior is moved back 1 space and the skeleton moves one space forwards. (either into the warrior’s original space or pushing a skeleton into the warrior’s original space)>> If the values were identical then the skeleton has fallen directly into the warrior’s weapon, this means that the warrior can take an immediate attack against the skeleton. (or the skeleton pushed into the warrior)

Note:If the pushed character cannot move back because of a wall then he moves sideways to an empty space at the character owner’s discretion.If the character is pushed back into another character then the owner of that character must move him one square out of the way in any direction he wants (to an empty space). If there is no empty space he may move into an occupied space and the character in that space must move too. And so on....

How about a forced retreat rule like in melee where if the figure blocking the door is wounded and inflicts no wounds on his attacker in the room, the attacker in the room can force the wounded figure to retreat 1 space and can immediately move in to occupy the space vacated. I'll have to try this.

As a Dungeon Master I could never understand how one hero can literally block ten skeletons in aroom all by himself waiting to knock them down one at a time at his convenience, while the furiousopponents wait in line. Consequently the following rule was devised that can not only solve theproblem but also create a bit of fun.

Man, I had the exact same feeling! Ultimately the idea is have fun while fixing a rule.

pirtrom wrote:

New rule:The new rule is that as an ACTION you can try to push an enemy one space instead of making an attack. Or you can try to push one friendly character into an enemy to push them both one space. So the skeleton in the doorway can try to push the warrior back one space allowing the other skeletons out of the room. Or one of the other four skeletons can push the skeleton in the doorway into the warrior pushing them both one space once again allowing the skeletons out of the room.

You resolve the push by rolling a Dice and adding your Strength value, the enemy does the same and the one who obtained the highest number wins.

This mechanic is indeed very interesting. I have to try it to see how it plays, it´s clearly a new option available to the monsters against the doorway ambush. Now that I´ve spent more time with the rules I see that something like this was implemented by the designers in the form of the "vacated hex advance", where the attacker can occupy the empty square left by the dead target. However, seems to me that the strength roll in this rule would make things more agile and faster.

LerkerX wrote:

How about a forced retreat rule like in melee where if the figure blocking the door is wounded and inflicts no wounds on his attacker in the room, the attacker in the room can force the wounded figure to retreat 1 space and can immediately move in to occupy the space vacated. I'll have to try this.

Interesting, please keep them coming! I know we can come up with lots of ideas to improve this great game

I feel the best way to "fix" this is to just adapt as the game goes as DM.

If the Heroes try the door grinder one too many times then the "protracted fighting in the corridors brings reinforcements racing to the noise ready to fight."

This forces the Heroes to be a bit more Heroic and burst into rooms occasionally!

A few Wandering Monsters can break up the Hero formation or at least give them something else to think about without wiping them out!

I totally agree, as a matter of fact I was arriving to the same conclusion, giving the GM some room to fix things is actually the best way to go.

That would be the case in multiplayer games, though I mostly play solo so I needed an effective remedy for the "doorway exploit" situation and the EZ (or ZOE) fix is proving to be the solution I was looking for! it´s realistic and evens things up, taking the initial advantage from the heroes if they want to pull the doorway ambush, improving the fun at the end. It´s a good way to simulate a GM with a slight advantage when the Heroes are surprised in solo mode. It´s actually the only way I know of modeling a REAL monster ambush on the Heroes in Solo games.

Something very similar actually works in WHQ, I rarely see people complaining about how monsters appear in WHQ; on the contrary, I have read some negative comments against the monsters doing nothing after they appear. This is not the case with the EZ (or ZOE) fix, monsters behave like in a REAL ambush.

Your wandering monsters idea is actually great! I have to give it a try. I'm thinking in something like: If the Heroes remain in the corridor for 3 turns then a group of wandering monsters is generated. They could re-spawn every 3 turns if the Heroes remain in the corridor, or something along those lines.

Your wandering monsters idea is actually great! I have to give it a try. I'm thinking in something like: If the Heroes remain in the corridor for 3 turns then a group of wandering monsters is generated. They could re-spawn every 3 turns if the Heroes remain in the corridor, or something along those lines.

I think that would work great in solo mode. Alternatively you could dice for it each round and check to see if Wandering Monsters turn up rather than give an arbitrary number.

Something like 1 Turn in Corridor Wandering Monsters turn up on 11-12. 2 Turns 9-12, 3 Turns 7-12 etc. You could even change the number depending on how deep in the dungeon the heroes are!

Your wandering monsters idea is actually great! I have to give it a try. I'm thinking in something like: If the Heroes remain in the corridor for 3 turns then a group of wandering monsters is generated. They could re-spawn every 3 turns if the Heroes remain in the corridor, or something along those lines.

I think that would work great in solo mode. Alternatively you could dice for it each round and check to see if Wandering Monsters turn up rather than give an arbitrary number.

Something like 1 Turn in Corridor Wandering Monsters turn up on 11-12. 2 Turns 9-12, 3 Turns 7-12 etc. You could even change the number depending on how deep in the dungeon the heroes are!

I agree. Adding the throw is also a great idea!

I'm realizing that this "wandering monsters" solution is a very painless and practical fix for the doorway issue, also for modeling a real ambush situation that favors the monsters, the way it works originally just places the heroes in an advantageous position. I'm going to try this, some combat in passageways is expected though, something I wanted to avoid initially but 2 squares are better than 1, it could work. I just need to adjust the reinforcements roll accordingly

The "Ambush" GM token allows you to roll a new group of monsters from the wandering monster table and ambush the heroes from behind. In solo play don't forget to roll each monster phase to see is reinforcements arrive!

I think more sentries create much more dynamic encounters, as they open doors to try to outflank the heroes. Each monster archetype should have sentries; orcs, chaos, undead (in the form of ghouls). The lack or sentries and specialist monsters for everyone but skaven is disappointing, but easily remedied by the GM.

I developed this solution, though it has yet to be play-tested. It is similar to your rule as it is also inspired by WHQ.

If the GM wins the surprise roll, he moves each hero/henchman into the room a number of spaces equal to the difference in the scores. After doing so the Heroes may move each of their figures one space. Then the GM then places the monsters in any available squares in the room. If there are not enough squares the remaining monsters are lost

Also I've altered the exploration charts to include the occasional double-wide doors. In theory, these changes plus the addition of more sentries, should greatly improve my games.

Since the rule above is not suited to solo play, so your rule is a great alternative for me in that situation. Thanks!

I think more sentries create much more dynamic encounters, as they open doors to try to outflank the heroes. Each monster archetype should have sentries; orcs, chaos, undead (in the form of ghouls). The lack or sentries and specialist monsters for everyone but skaven is disappointing, but easily remedied by the GM.

Interesting, I like sentries, I bet this hasn´t been properly discussed. Have you developed any character? They do provide options and tactical challenge.

wrote:

I developed this solution, though it has yet to be play-tested. It is similar to your rule as it is also inspired by WHQ.

If the GM wins the surprise roll, he moves each hero/henchman into the room a number of spaces equal to the difference in the scores. After doing so the Heroes may move each of their figures one space. Then the GM then places the monsters in any available squares in the room. If their are not enough squares the remaining monsters are lost

Nice! It´s basically the same concept: forcing the Heroes to go inside the room and exposing them to monsters for 1 turn; which I believe is the way a real ambush works, being also unpredictable enough for a solo game.

The simple part of this concept is that no change to movement or any attack rule is needed, no changes are made to characteristics, no new abilities or actions are introduced, no doorway modifications were intended.... it works simply by getting the Heroes inside the room.

It´s a minor tweak but it considerably enriches by itself the game-play experience for a solo player IMHO, and can be used concurrently with other modifications like the ones you mention; double doors are certainly on my list, and all the changes one could come up with, though my first intention was to address the "fighting in corridors" issue as well, looking for "heroic" battle settings within rooms and trying to avoid combat in corridors as much as possible. I´ve realized that some passage combat is also part of the game after all

Your alternative though, provides an interesting twist for multiplayer games, which I find very smart and compelling: the GM moves the Heroes first according to the difference in the scores.

wrote:

Since the rule above is not suited to solo play, so your rule is a great alternative for me in that situation. Thanks!

Any time I'm glad you found it useful.

EDIT: I think this excellent idea could also be implemented in solo games, maybe advancing each hero into the room according to the difference in scores and as far from the door as possible? maybe rolling 1d6 each?

If you want it to look more like WHQ, a random position mechanic for the Heroes could be done easily. I was thinking that maybe with 2D10 and assigning coordinates to squares inside rooms? 5x5 and 10x10? maybe with a placement zone at the center of the room, just like the ZOE? I´ll run some tests over the weekend and let you know

Interesting, I like sentries, I bet this hasn´t been properly discussed. Have you developed any character? They do provide options and tactical challenge.

I was only able to run one short AHQ campaign after introducing a group to HQ first. It did not last long enough for me to need to start creating new character types, but all the warhammer units could be represented easily. Sentries are much simpler, just remove some armor and adjust stats accordingly. Except undead, in that case I would consider ghouls, or necromancer novices with the sentry rule. Ghouls have stats in the TiTD expansion, I'd just add sentry to every one-in-4 encountered.

RECIVS wrote:

EDIT: I think this excellent idea could also be implemented in solo games, maybe advancing each hero into the room according to the difference in scores and as far from the door as possible? maybe rolling 1d6 each?

If you want it to look more like WHQ, a random position mechanic for the Heroes could be done easily. I was thinking that maybe with 2D10 and assigning coordinates to squares inside rooms? 5x5 and 10x10? maybe with a placement zone at the center of the room, just like the ZOE? I´ll run some tests over the weekend and let you know

What would the D6 roll be for in your suggestion?

When I used to play solo, I would place all monsters using an x/y axis random roll. Made things more fun. If I were to do it again I would use my surprise rules if the monsters win, and random placement if the heroes win.

I guess it would be simple enough in solo play to just move the heroes as close to the center of the room as possible, while trying to maintain the same formation.

When I used to play solo, I would place all monsters using an x/y axis random roll. Made things more fun. If I were to do it again I would use my surprise rules if the monsters win, and random placement if the heroes win.

I guess it would be simple enough in solo play to just move the heroes as close to the center of the room as possible, while trying to maintain the same formation.

The D6 roll could be used to determine how many squares each Hero moves into the room IF you want it to look more like WHQ (using D6s) I proposed a D6 since the score difference from the surprise roll could be 1-2, which still means that the monsters won the surprise roll but still not enough to get all the Heroes into the room, which is the core concept of this fix to begin with. Maybe multiplying the original difference score by 2 if it´s less than 4 or something?

I still think that the surprise score difference makes sense, it´s in fact a very good idea to me. Moving the Heroes as close to the center as possible and then using the 1on1 rule for monster placement is the simplest yet smartest option I see for solo games as you propose. It´s even logical that if the difference as minimal as 1, then the Heroes could most likely stay outside the room.

My only comment would be that this way the game plays like WHQ, something I wanted to avoid initially, but I have an open mind. The 1on1 rule in this case could not be considered as borrowed IMHO it´s in fact pure applied common sense and original AHQ rules, monsters in WHQ simply won´t ambush unless specifically provided, on the contrary there are specific AHQ rules that cover ambushes when monsters win the surprise, giving them the initiative for that single turn, we´re just fixing Heroes´ position so they can become exposed for that single turn, of course in solo games the 1on1 becomes irresistible.

I´ve focused on a mechanic for placing the Heroes inside the room when surprise is lost; it was my mistake when I wrote that random position for the Heroes would look more like WHQ, what I meant is that if you DON´T want it to look like WHQ, a random position mechanic would make some difference. That´s why I was reluctant to place Heroes at the center of the room initially.

I haven´t really considered about changing the original rule for monsters being placed randomly when surprise is won by the Heroes, sounds fun though, adds more challenge, sometimes your heroes won´t be able to reach a randomly scattered monster. I have to try this one also.

To tell the truth, my initial plan was to avoid borrowing mechanics from WHQ, keeping AHQ´s original rules as much as possible. I didn´t want AHQ to look and play like WHQ, I wanted this game to be played more like an RPG as it was originally intended. This "doorway issue" needed a fix anyway, Im glad there are some very good solutions already provided in this thread, that was the idea, I hope there´s more to come

Hmm, The way I see it, if the monsters win by 1 point they can move one hero into the room which is still very dangerous for the poor guy opening the door! They can get three attacks (possibly more if armed with spears) before the heroes can react. I think having varying degrees of advancement into the room creates more diverse encounters, and should not make the game to much like WHQ. I too take issue with WHQs method of hero placement in the exact center of the room every time, which makes every monster encounter the same.

I assume the heroes are being as quiet and cautious as possible to avoid detection at all times. But, i think that some effects to increase the chance of getting all heroes into the room would add excitement and realism. If the heroes seem to win all the time perhaps a surprise roll penalty is in order.

If a battle occurs, and the very next room also contains monsters, they should pretty much always win the surprise roll! Maybe a +10 to surprise roll for following encounters, reduced by one for each tile separating the previous encounter.

The concept of stealth is something not yet experimented with in AHQ. All that heavy armor clanking around, as well as a large accompaniment of henchmen can't make it easy to sneak up on monsters. A surprise roll penalty of 1 for each 2-3 points of movement penalty due to worn armor could simulate this as well, and would take into account henchmen. Smaller groups could get a bonus to surprise rolls, +1 per member fewer than 4.

Extending the stealth idea further, if the heroes win the surprise roll, and monsters are placed and faced randomly as I suggested above, you could run through a dungeon as a thief trying to sneak by monsters! This would be a major change to game but a fun challenge to try. It would require monster alertness rules and random movement. This is getting way off-topic though!

Very good ideas indeed! The stealth part seems doable to me, it would open a wide range of options.

That´s what I like about this game, it has plenty of room left for improvements and custom rules.

Now that the "doorway issue" is not bugging my games I'm feeling that I have to do something with hand-to-hand combat, using the same attack every time is not my concept of the perfect hacknslash dungeon crawler. I´ve seen that the revisions out there offer different attacks and traits, I believe now it´s time to try them out before messing with the combat rules.

Now that the "doorway issue" is not bugging my games I'm feeling that I have to do something with hand-to-hand combat, using the same attack every time is not my concept of the perfect hacknslash dungeon crawler.

I agree. I have been reading about (but do not intend to buy) Descent 2nd edition, and the idea of Surges intrigues me. If you are unfamiliar with the game, basically some combat dice facings have icons on them that can be used to add extra damage to an attack, or add special effects like blast radius for magic, stunning monsters, etc...

Extra damage is already handled in AHQ with the rules for critical hits/damage. The possibility of stunning, pushing, distracting, and tripping enemies might be fun to look at. Maybe critical rolls could be applied with a dice roll on an effect chart rather than always being more damage dice. Maybe heroes could buy skills allowing them to convert critical hits/wounds into especial effects. The possibilities are exciting.

I have on my HDD a 2 page PDF named "Death Damage". I cannot find it online, so have no idea where i acquired it. It adds negative wound levels and has charts for location specific debilitating damage. Seems like a lot of bookkeeping when applied to henchmen and monsters, but watching your heroes become horribly mangled sounds fun!

Extra damage is already handled in AHQ with the rules for critical hits/damage. The possibility of stunning, pushing, distracting, and tripping enemies might be fun to look at. Maybe critical rolls could be applied with a dice roll on an effect chart rather than always being more damage dice. Maybe heroes could buy skills allowing them to convert critical hits/wounds into especial effects. The possibilities are exciting.

Very nice! I like the buying option better, involves more strategy. I was actually looking into Descent 2 for new combat actions and comparing mechanics. D&D4 offers a wide spectrum of options though, it´s actually AHQ on a steroids overdose but Im playing around with the revisions first before considering the once per encounter mechanic for AHQ

wrote:

I have on my HDD a 2 page PDF named "Death Damage". I cannot find it online, so have no idea where i acquired it. It adds negative wound levels and has charts for location specific debilitating damage. Seems like a lot of bookkeeping when applied to henchmen and monsters, but watching your heroes become horribly mangled sounds fun!