Your description of your pilgrimage to Tommy's coupled with the photos really helps me to visualize the pizza. Looks like a good Midwestern cracker-style crust (cut into squares, of course)

You said the sauce was not that noticeable and you thought it was from a very concentrated tomato product (paste?). Anymore you can tell us about that component? Flavor? Was it less noticeable because of the amount or because of the flavor?

You said the sauce was not that noticeable and you thought it was from a very concentrated tomato product (paste?). Anymore you can tell us about that component? Flavor? Was it less noticeable because of the amount or because of the flavor?

Thanks, ME.

Your questions are pretty tough to answer. Yes, I did mean paste or something similar to paste, diluted to some extent. I guess the only other answer I can provide is that I just have a feeling or a hunch; an educated guess. For one thing, when you take the first bite of any piece of Tommyís pizza, you donít pull the whole cheese/topping layer off the crust like you would with a moderate-to-heavily sauced piece of pizza. But also there just isnít any real presence of tomato flavor. The crust has a very distinct flavoróvery unsalty and fermentedówhich blends nicely with the saltiness above it (from the cheese), but I just donít taste much of anything in between the crust and the cheese. (Consciously I donít taste any sauce, but I know itís there.) Also, Tommyís is a very dry pizza, which is another indication that they use heavily concentrated, pasty sauce.

To answer your last question (if I havenít been clear), I think it is less noticeable both because of the amount and the flavor.

In my attempts to replicate Tommyís, which Iíve based on memories that were a few years old, I went moderately heavy on the sauce. For my sauce, Iíve tried two different products: 1) San Marzanos (slightly pulpy and drained well enough to not be wet); and 2) Escalon 6 In 1 with a little basil added. Now that Iíve re-familiarized myself with Tommyís by eating there yesterday, I can just tell that they use a much thicker sauce than I use, but they also use much less of it. I mean, just look at my pics compared to the actual Tommyís pics; I think you should be able to almost feel the difference. Neither the taste nor the color of Tommyís sauce resembles either the taste or color Iíve gotten from the two different types of sauce Iíve used in my attempt to replicate Tommyís. So, considering each of my sauces came from very fresh, unconcentrated (canned) tomato product, I think itís safe to say Tommyís uses some kind of concentrated, pasty tomato product (which is also considerably cheaper than the tomato products Iíve used).

For the record, I prefer my attempted clones over the actual Tommyís pizza, partly because Iíve used larger quantities of better quality tomato product than they use at Tommyís. Iím still going to keep trying to replicate Tommyís, though, first of all because itís helping me learn, but also because I really like their crust. I think a Tommyís crust with higher quality sauce, cheese, and toppings would be freaking phenomenal.

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

OK, having just eaten the leftovers, I need to take back a couple things I said today or yesterday. First of all, there's no noticeable saltiness to Tommy's pizza. Not in the crust, nor in the cheese. So just forget I said that. Also, I tried to pay more attention to the sauce as I ate the leftovers, and I'd say it was relatively bland and slightly sweet. Not sugary sweet, though. I wouldn't say anything different than I've already said about the sauce. If you want a Tommy's-style sauce, I'd still say to start with a heavily concentrated tomato product, thin it out (but still keep it pretty thick), and add just enough basil to taste. I didn't notice any other distinct flavors in the sauce, except perhaps a hint of green bell pepper.

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Having made many pizzas using doughs with high sugar levels, such as Papa John's clones, I have found that I detected the sweetness more in the reheated leftover slices, not in the original pizza slices. I have no explanation for the phenomenon. But, as a result, I now try to compare my clones with the originals as freshly baked.

Having made many pizzas using doughs with high sugar levels, such as Papa John's clones, I have found that I detected the sweetness more in the reheated leftover slices, not in the original pizza slices. I have no explanation for the phenomenon. But, as a result, I now try to compare my clones with the originals as freshly baked.

That's interesting because I usually donít taste sauce when I reheat leftover pizza. This time, however, I did taste sauce on the leftovers, even though I didn't notice it on the fresh pizza yesterday.

I will soon be making some pretty big changes to my best yet formula. The changes will be: a considerable decrease in salt, considerable decrease in oil, elimination of sugar, and probably a considerable increase of yeast. I'll also decrease the bulk-rise from 24 hours to no more than 6 hours, in addition to the new lamination technique I havenít described yet.

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Great of you to do this. I have fond memories of eating Tommy's all through my childhood. Sadly, it didn't live up to my expectations last time I had it. I agree with your assesment.

Love the fermented smell & crunch of the crust. Love that they use provolone (a Columbus thing?).

I always thought they used tomato paste in their sauce. What do you think? I've tried using it to thicken a typical San Marzano based sauce & liked the result. (EDIT....I just re-read post #51. Again, spot-on).

Thanks Chris. It's cool to get a little feedback from people who have had Tommyís before, especially when it confirms that Iím on the right track (or if it corrects me when I may be wrong).

I just made a batch of dough, using a much different formula than my best yet formula. As you will see below, Iíve made some pretty drastic changes in the percentages of yeast, salt, oil, and sugar. Iím also going to limit the bulk rise to 6 hours or less, rather than 24 hours (partly due to the fact that Iíve doubled the yeast, but also because 24 hours was giving me some borderline overfermented doughs). What I think will really make my next Tommyís clone great, though, is the new lamination technique, which I intend to outline in a follow-up post very soon (as well as in pictures, once I actually try it).

Iíll probably use Cento crushed tomatoes (with a little added basil) for sauce. I just tried this product for the first time a few weeks ago, and itís really good. I bought it with the sole intention of using it to make a pasta sauce, assuming it would be a little chunky. However, it turned out to be a puree thatís just about the perfect thickness for pizza sauce. And it tastes good, too. Since I havenít made any pizzas in at least a few weeks, I havenít tried this as a pizza sauce yet, but I think it will be very good. It wonít be like Tommyís sauce, but it will be more like Tommyís sauce than the other tomato products Iíve used.

First I added the salt and oil to the flour, then mixed it all up a little. (Even though my formula says 0% sugar, I did use a pinch of sugar just to prove the yeast.) When the yeast water was ready, I poured it into the dry ingredients, then I immediately poured the rest of the very warm water (about 115 degrees) into the dry ingredients. Next I mixed everything by hand for several seconds, just to give the dough hook something solid to grab onto. I then mixed the dough in a Kitchen-Aid mixer with a spiral dough hook for just long enough to bring everything together (probably 3 or 4 minutes). There was still a little bit of loose flour in the mixing bowl when I stopped mixing.

Following the bulk ferment (which I now suspect will only last 3 hours, tops), I will divide the dough into dough balls. I will not round the dough balls, though, because I donít want to overdevelop the gluten. Instead, Iím just going to scale the dough into smaller pieces and shape them as if I was making a snowball. (As Iíve already been doing, I will use two separate dough balls for each dough skin.)

I donít want to get too far ahead of myself, so Iíll stop now. Much more to come.

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Here are a couple more pics of the pizza I bought at Tommy's a few days ago. The second pic shows what I was trying to show in Pic 5 and Pic 6 of Reply 49. Looking at this pic, the first thing you should see is that Tommy's crust has two distinct layers. But you should also be able to see that each of the two layers consists of several laminates (probably nine laminates in each layer). This is what produces the flaky characteristic Briterian and I have alluded to, in addition to a texture that's crispy, crunchy, and chewy all at the same time. To me, these are the main characteristics (along with the fermented flavor) that make Tommy's stand out from other thin, sheeted pizzas. This is what makes Tommy's great.

I'll put up another post very soon, with a detailed description and pics of how I laminated the dough for last night's attempt at cloning Tommy's.

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Regarding lamination of Tommyís pizza: As I mentioned in a recent post, I am now 100 percent positive that Tommyís laminates their dough, ending up with two distinct layers. This is evident in the profile of their pizza (where the pizza has been cut), but it is also very clear when you look at the outer edge of their crust. The edge of Tommyís pizza looks pretty much like the pic in reply #35, except the two layers of Tommyís pizza do not separate as much as mine did.

Each distinct layer of a Tommyís pizza appears to be made up of multiple laminates (probably nine laminates within each layer). So instead of using just one dough ball per skin, you need to use two dough balls of equal weight.

Letís say weíre making a 10Ē skin. Ideally this skin will weigh 8.5 to 9 oz when itís ready to use, but since weíll be rolling it out larger than 10Ē, then trimming it, we need to start with considerably more than 9 oz of dough. I think 13 oz is an appropriate amount of dough to start with for a 10Ē skin. But instead of scaling one 13-oz dough ball, you need to scale two 6.5-oz dough balls.

To begin, roll one of the dough balls into a thin, roundish skin (as in Pic 1), then fold it into thirds (Pic 2 and Pic 3) and roll it again as thin as you can. (I forgot to take a picture of this, but the rectangular dough skin will be very long and narrow after this step.) Now fold the length of the skin into thirds (Pic 4 and Pic 5), making it essentially square, then roll it to about an 8Ē square (Pic 6). (With all the folding and rolling, this will take a lot of work.) Once youíve managed to roll the dough to about 8Ē or so, set it aside and repeat this process with the second dough ball.

After repeating the procedures from the previous paragragh, using the remaining dough ball, the second skin should be the same size as the first skin (about 8Ē square). Now set one skin on top of the other and roll them together. NO MORE FOLDING! All you want to do is roll the two dough skins together until you have about an 11x11-inch dough skin. At this point, place a round 10Ē pan on the dough and cut out your 10Ē dough skin with a pizza wheel. Once you position your skin on the dark, perforated 10Ē pan, youíre done with the dough. (Do not dock the dough.)

As I mentioned in the previous post, Iíve already made a pizza with the new dough formula, using these lamination procedures. (Iíll put up a couple pics shortly; it was a good-looking pizza.) Even though the crust was too soft and bready (mostly because I used way too much yeast), I can tell Iím heading in the right direction. With the next batch of dough, Iíll cut the yeast back to its previous level and let it bulk ferment overnight.

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Here are a couple pics of the pizza I made last night, using my revised dough formula (expressed in Reply #56) and my revised laminating procedures (outlined in Reply #58). For this 10" pizza, the skin weighed about 9.2 oz. It was topped with 2.25 oz of sauce, 4.5 oz of cheap mozzarella, and 2 oz of pepperoni. The crust was definitely too thick (it probably should have been more like 8.5 oz), but the sauce and cheese seemed just about right for a Tommy's pizza. The pepperoni weight was probably about right, too, although it's hard to say for sure because I used a much different pepperoni than they use. I baked the pizza for about 14 minutes on the lowest rack of a 500-degree electric oven (with the stone moved to the top rack).

The dough was definitely way too young and had way too much yeast. The soft, bready crust didn't blister, nor did it taste fermented or have any real character. However, as you should be able to see in the second pic, the layers and laminates bear quite a resemblance to the Tommy's pics, so that's cool.

I think it's going to be almost impossible to make a great Tommy's clone without a sheeter. First of all, I'm almost positive that the dough needs to be stiffer than the dough I used last night. Second, I think the dough needs to be sheeted cold, and we all know how hard it is to roll out cold dough by hand. Regardless, I'll keep trying.

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

looks really good ,you nailed the crust as far a getting the laminated texture. they probably use straight provolone for their cheese.

Thanks thezaman. My most recent Tommy's clone attempt (the one in the two recent pics) was a long way off, but I'm getting there. I'll figure it out pretty soon (once I start feeling healthy enough to start making/eating pizza again).

One thing I've been thinking about for the last several days is the fermented flavor of the crust. I really don't think you can get that kind of flavor with a straight dough. I'm thinking they get this flavor by adding the previous day's dough scraps (which may already be a couple days old) to each new batch of dough. I think the dough scraps function pretty much like a preferment. I'll give it a try soon.

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Well, Iím back at it, and Iím trying some new procedures, along with some minor formula changes. Yesterday I mixed up a small batch of dough, which I allowed to bulk-ferment at room temperature for 21 hours. This dough will function as a preferment (or simulated scraps). I feel pretty sure this is an important step in re-creating Tommyís because Tommyís crust has a very strong alcohol presence, yet it doesnít look or taste overfermented. Hereís the formula I used for this dough:

As I already mentioned, I mixed up a small batch yesterday (using 8 oz of flour), then I let the dough bulk-ferment for 21 hours at room temperature. Iíll call this batch of dough ďscraps.Ē Today I made another batch of dough, which Iíll call ďdough.Ē This batch used the same formula, but it was based on 16 oz of flour (rather than 8 oz).

Before mixing todayís dough, I cut yesterdayís scraps into approximately 1x1x1-inch cubes. I added about half of the cubes to the dough as soon as I began mixing (in a Kitchen-Aid mixer), then I gradually added the remainder of the cubes to the dough while the dough mixed. I estimate the total mixing time to have been about 5 minutes, which was just long enough for the stiff dough to come together.

Right now the dough is bulk-fermenting in the oven on ďdough proofĒ mode (100 degrees). Iím going to leave it alone for at least a couple hours (or more likely 3 or 4 hours). At this point I will roll out a couple skins, each of which will consist of two layers. Each layer will consist of 9 laminates. I will employ the lamination procedure that I used in Reply #58 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12446.msg128774.html#msg128774). However, this time I will use some bench flour, in an attempt to keep the 18 distinct laminates from merging into one layer while the skins retard in the fridge.

Iíll put both skins in the fridge immediately after rolling them (if I have any strength left to carry them). Iíll probably use one of the skins tonight, then the other one tomorrow.

Iím also going to take a stab at re-creating Tommyís sauce this time, even though my own sauce makes a better pizza. In trying to re-create their sauce, I plan to start with tomato paste (yuk!), to which I will add some basil after diluting with water. (Itíll still be pretty thick, though.) Donít know if Iíll add anything else to the sauce. Iíll just wait to see how it tastes with only basil.

I donít expect the first pizza to end up with the characteristics Iím looking for, so donít expect any pics tonight. However, I think the second pizza might come pretty close, since it will sit in the fridge for an extra day, already sheeted. I expect the extra day in the fridge to produce some blistering on the bottom of the pizza, which to me is a signature characteristic of Tommyís.

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Well, that tells me Tommy's dough must have a much higher hydration than the dough I've been using (which currently calls for 37.5% hydration). Second thing it tells me is that the dough must have been sitting on the pan for a while before baking (probably in a cooler).

At 37.5% hydration, my dough has no chance of taking the shape of the pan. So I'm thinking I should try about 45% (which I'm about to do). I'm going to let it bulk ferment for about 8 hours before shaping into dough balls and retarding for a couple days. After that, I'll roll it out into two layers of 9 laminates, trim and pan, then leave it in the fridge for a few hours before topping and baking.

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

I think I've finally done it. The pizza I just ate was AWESOME!!! It was almost identical to Tommy's.

The one thing that really took this one over the top was my new lamination procedures. Instead of doing two layers of nine laminates, I did two layers of four laminates. Don't know why it took me so long to try it that way, but it changed everything.

I took a few pictures, which I will post later. I hope they turned out all right.

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

I just now noticed your thread in trying this style without a sheeter. Here's the deal, if you use a rolling pin you need to get it thin fast without a lot of rolling. The rolling action is developing the dough. With a sheeter this is achieved in 2-3 passes, very fast. But with a rolling pin, the more you have to roll, the more you develop it, the less layering and bubbles you'll see. So that's why you are achieving better success with less laminations, you're simply developing the dough less.

The pain of doing this style by hand is that most of these doughs are very low hydration. The lower the hydration, the harder it is to roll by hand. So you're probably best off striking a balance between a low-mid hydration and something that is manageable to roll. Even if a drier dough would give better results for what you're after, you're going to kill it by trying to roll it out and laminate it.

Another approach to this is rolling a few skins thin independently, then simply laying them on top of each other and "lightly rolling" it to finish it off. This works quite well but takes a lot a time. Even having a sheeter I find this style just takes a lot of time to produce. It's a 2-3 day process and the sheeter is just one of the tricks in the bag.

You've done well doing this by hand. I am very impressed with your perseverance. Cook on!

I've come really close to cloning Tommy's pizza, but there's one characteristic I still can't seem to reproduce: the blistered bottom of the crust, as shown in the pictures below. Can y'all give me some ideas on what I may need to do to get these blisters?

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

You're right; it does. (I assume you're talking about Briterian's upskirt pic.) I'd never thought about it like that. Maybe I should spray the pan next time and see what that does for me. It might get me a step closer.

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

You're right; it does. (I assume you're talking about Briterian's upskirt pic.) I'd never thought about it like that. Maybe I should spray the pan next time and see what that does for me. It might get me a step closer.

Blisters are a combination of long/overferments and refrigerated dough.

That's the school of thought I've been using all this time, but I still can't get it to blister like the real Tommy's pics (or your beer crust). The last Tommy's clone I made (same batch of dough as my most recent pictures, but two days older) was four days old when I used it. Also, the dough was cold. However, when it was all done, there was only a hint of blistering; nothing like what I'm trying to get. The funny thing is that I think I used to get blisters on the crust in my early days of making pizza (NY style)... Uh oh, light bulb...

In those early days, I always used a preferment of about 100% hydration, which I would allow to rise and fall before adding the salt, oil, and the remainder of the flour, then mixing.

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

I made a huge accidental discovery this evening by using what I considered very underfermented dough.

In the mid-afternoon I mixed 23 oz of Tommy's-style dough, to which I added 19 oz of scraps that remained from the previous batch. After letting the dough bulk-ferment for only about 2.5 hours, I divided it into six dough balls. Using two of the dough balls, I made one skin with two layers of 4 laminates. After rolling and trimming the skin, I put it in the fridge while the oven heated up. I then topped and baked the pizza as soon as I removed it from the fridge.

Even though I was just trying to make a quick dinner, this ended up being possibly the AHA! pizza. The texture of this crust was more like Tommy's than any other pizza I've made. Now I know it's because their dough is almost completely unleavened when they use it.

You may ask: If Tommy's crust is essentially unleavened, why does it have such a pronounced fermented flavor?

I didn't say unfermented. I said unleavened.

I now suspect that Tommy's leaves the previous day's scraps out at room temperature all night, then they make dough in the morning, adding the scraps while the dough mixes. After a very short bulk-ferment, they sheet/laminate the dough and trim the skins. Immediately they put the skins in the cooler. Finally, they use the skins straight out of the cooler, with no proof time.

At least that's my hypothesis.

Since I still have enough of today's dough left to make two more pizzas, it'll be a few days before I get a chance to test my hypothesis, but I feel very confident that I'm down to the last few pieces of the Tommy's puzzle. I did take one picture of today's pizza, and I'll post it soon if it's in focus and everything.

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Not a great pic, but it's the only one I took. Compare this pic to the real Tommy's pics on the top of page 1 and the middle of page 3. I think you'll see that I'm getting really close to making an almost perfect clone. I should have more pics coming within a few days.

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.