I wouldn't put it past the Roman Catholic Church ,By embellishing this church and possibly other churches ,with Orthodox Icons probably just another Sheep Stealing Tactic....Must be alot of orthodox in that neighborhood...Fr.Ambrose mentioned once somewhere on this forum about Israels russian jews. that were actully russian orthodox christians,,And the Eastern Catholic were there prepared to sheep steal them away.

And that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand. But groundless, nonsensical remarks seem ever so common... The Roman Catholic Church has a history of iconography too, of which, it was common with Orthodoxy for a thousand years.

Please, back on topic, or warnings/moderation will occur swiftly.

-- Nebelpfade

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As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.-- Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS

I wouldn't put it past the Roman Catholic Church ,By embellishing this church and possibly other churches ,with Orthodox Icons probably just another Sheep Stealing Tactic....Must be alot of orthodox in that neighborhood...Fr.Ambrose mentioned once somewhere on this forum about Israels russian jews. that were actully russian orthodox christians,,And the Eastern Catholic were there prepared to sheep steal them away.

And that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand. But groundless, nonsensical remarks seem ever so common... The Roman Catholic Church has a history of iconography too, of which, it was common with Orthodoxy for a thousand years.

I wouldn't put it past the Roman Catholic Church ,By embellishing this church and possibly other churches ,with Orthodox Icons probably just another Sheep Stealing Tactic....Must be alot of orthodox in that neighborhood...

Oh, I'm sure Fr. Rutler had just that intention in mind. After all, Park Ave in Midtown Manhattan is obviously chock-full of Orthodox Christian sheep...

Getting back on topic... Douglas, the Lancelot Andrews edition of the Monastic Diurnal is actually approved for Western-rite Orthodox use.

It's an interesting question---the Western-rite Orthodox Mass is in a post-schism form (tacked-on Byzantine epiclesis or not). So post-schism devotions and practices are not out of the question, at least for Western-riters. Of course, the Rosary as commonly practiced today is also in a post-schism form. Perhaps the branch cut from the tree can still bear some fruit (though perhaps it is more like a graft than a branch being cut).

The soul that will go to Confession and receive Holy Communion shall obtain complete forgiveness of sins and punishment.

Any devotion that encourages Confession and receiving Holy Communion can't be totally wrong. After being Orthodox over 25 years, I am still discovering a wealth of Orthodox devotions...enough to keep me busy until I stand before the Lord in judgment. One Orthodox bishop when asked about Eastern meditation said, "Why look elsewhere? Orthodoxy has everything you need."

Personally, I find myself agreeing with the many who have already told you that Orthodoxy is so complete in its traditions of prayer that you just don't need to look to outside traditions for anything they might offer. The Chaplet of Divine Mercy may not pose any theological problems to us whatsoever, and if a Catholic wants to pray the prayer, we may encourage them to do so. But you're not a Roman Catholic. What spirituality can an RC practice offer you that Orthodoxy hasn't offered already?

Hi, this remains a convert issue for me because in my search for the truth, I want to know where God is at work. I am prepared to accept that Orthodoxy is the fullness of the Gospel but does that mean that God does not draw people to himself in other traditions like the RC or my own current Church of the Nazarene? In my view, to say God is NOT at work in them is to say they are all going to hell. And if God does work in other tradtions, albeit incompletely, than cannot a person, even an Orthodox person, grow through the wording of the Chaplet of the Divine Mercy, even if the visions are suspect?

Personally, I find myself agreeing with the many who have already told you that Orthodoxy is so complete in its traditions of prayer that you just don't need to look to outside traditions for anything they might offer. The Chaplet of Divine Mercy may not pose any theological problems to us whatsoever, and if a Catholic wants to pray the prayer, we may encourage them to do so. But you're not a Roman Catholic. What spirituality can an RC practice offer you that Orthodoxy hasn't offered already?

Hi, this remains a convert issue for me because in my search for the truth, I want to know where God is at work. I am prepared to accept that Orthodoxy is the fullness of the Gospel but does that mean that God does not draw people to himself in other traditions like the RC or my own current Church of the Nazarene? In my view, to say God is NOT at work in them is to say they are all going to hell. And if God does work in other tradtions, albeit incompletely, than cannot a person, even an Orthodox person, grow through the wording of the Chaplet of the Divine Mercy, even if the visions are suspect?

I look forward to any comments that might help me.jim

Well... there is the famous quote from St Theophan the Recluse on the matter: ""You ask, will the heterodox be saved. Why do you worry about them? They have a Saviour, Who desires the salvation of every human being. He will take care of them. You and I should not be burdened with such concern. Study yourself and your own sins. I will tell you one thing, however, should you being Orthodox, and possessing the Truth in its fullness, betray Orthodoxy and enter a different faith, you will lose your soul forever." In other words... we do not KNOW for a certainty that the heterodox WILL be saved but we assume that God the Father in His love and mercy will look after this. BUT we can say with assurance that we who are Orthodox and have the fullness of the revelation and the truth had better not be deviating from that truth. In short, for me it means that I am not about to mess around with the devotional practices of heterodox Christians for two reasons: 1) I'm Orthodox and the Orthodox Faith lacks nothing so it's pointless for me to go rooting around in the practices of other Christians and 2) We have no assurances that these devotional practices are "orthodox" in nature. I'm not Protestant... meaning, I do not pick and choose what serves me. The Church provides me with the direction I need. What I see here in this thread and other threads like it is an array of Orthodox believers telling me that they are in a position to do that picking and choosing. What this says to me is that they are still harboring a Protestant mindset. We must seek guidance from the Church (and that is not an online consensus of opinion) meaning our priest and bishop. This is the Orthodox way.

Well... there is the famous quote from St Theophan the Recluse on the matter: ""You ask, will the heterodox be saved. Why do you worry about them? They have a Saviour, Who desires the salvation of every human being. He will take care of them. You and I should not be burdened with such concern. Study yourself and your own sins. I will tell you one thing, however, should you being Orthodox, and possessing the Truth in its fullness, betray Orthodoxy and enter a different faith, you will lose your soul forever." In other words... we do not KNOW for a certainty that the heterodox WILL be saved but we assume that God the Father in His love and mercy will look after this. BUT we can say with assurance that we who are Orthodox and have the fullness of the revelation and the truth had better not be deviating from that truth. In short, for me it means that I am not about to mess around with the devotional practices of heterodox Christians for two reasons: 1) I'm Orthodox and the Orthodox Faith lacks nothing so it's pointless for me to go rooting around in the practices of other Christians and 2) We have no assurances that these devotional practices are "orthodox" in nature. I'm not Protestant... meaning, I do not pick and choose what serves me. The Church provides me with the direction I need. What I see here in this thread and other threads like it is an array of Orthodox believers telling me that they are in a position to do that picking and choosing. What this says to me is that they are still harboring a Protestant mindset. We must seek guidance from the Church (and that is not an online consensus of opinion) meaning our priest and bishop. This is the Orthodox way.

As a protestant, and a former fundamentalist, I can relate to this line of reasoning. Fundi's believe that unless you have Jesus as "your personal Lord and Saviour" you will be going to hell. I am no longer a Fundamentalist and I do believe that all men are saved through Christ BUT I have no idea what God does with everyone else. I guess that is God's business. I am by no means a universalists but is it not possible that God is working through other "sects" and, if so, can we, without abandoning Orthodoxy, embrace that which is useful and not endanger our souls? Are you so afraid that you would lose "orthodoxy" much like a bible fundamentalist is afraid of "losing his salvation" if engage in anything that is not orthodox in origin yet not unorthodox in it's esence? Cannot God, who desires of the salvation of all mankind, use what ever He wants to?

Douglas, I thank you for your answer. It was thoughtful and, while being a "strong" answer did not come across as disrespectful or arrogant. I only say that because when discussing such issues, some people go overboard.Peace,Jim

"Eternal Father, I offer You the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Your dearly beloved Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, in atonement for our sins and those of the whole world."

Mimics the prayer said by the priest when offering the Holy Gifts:

"Thine own of thine own we offer unto thee on behalf of all and for all."

It is not the part of the people to utter this prayer but the priest. To use a prayer so closely related gives the idea that the people have the power to offer apart from the priest and the Liturgy, which is opposed to Eastern liturgical theology.

Fr. Deacon Lance

This was my understanding as well. I felt uncomfortable about it for this reason when I was a Latin Catholic.

In Christ,Andrew

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"I will pour out my prayer unto the Lord, and to Him will I proclaim my grief; for with evils my soul is filled, and my life unto hades hath drawn nigh, and like Jonah I will pray: From corruption raise me up, O God." -Ode VI, Irmos of the Supplicatory Canon to the Theotokos

It is not us who offers Christ to the Father, it is He who offers Himself (and Him who receives, along with the Father and the Holy Spirit). We offer up ourselves (our hearts) and the gifts of bread and the wine. These become united to Christ's eternal sacrifice; i.e. they are brought together into one.

"Eternal Father, I offer You the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Your dearly beloved Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, in atonement for our sins and those of the whole world."

Mimics the prayer said by the priest when offering the Holy Gifts:

"Thine own of thine own we offer unto thee on behalf of all and for all."

It is not the part of the people to utter this prayer but the priest. To use a prayer so closely related gives the idea that the people have the power to offer apart from the priest and the Liturgy, which is opposed to Eastern liturgical theology.

Fr. Deacon Lance

This was my understanding as well. I felt uncomfortable about it for this reason when I was a Latin Catholic.

My mother is strong believer in the Divine Mercy devotion and tries to spread it around amongst here family and friends. I have nothing against it and have prayed the chaplet before. There is an interesting mixture of Eastern and Western prayers and themes contained in the various chaplet prayers (including the Trysigon). This may be explained by the devotions origination in Poland, which is on the border between Eastern and Western Christianity.

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Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.-- Gustave Flaubert

My mother is strong believer in the Divine Mercy devotion and tries to spread it around amongst here family and friends. I have nothing against it and have prayed the chaplet before. There is an interesting mixture of Eastern and Western prayers and themes contained in the various chaplet prayers (including the Trysigon). This may be explained by the devotions origination in Poland, which is on the border between Eastern and Western Christianity.

You can imagine my surprise the first time I attended a Byzantine Liturgy several years ago and learned that part of the liturgy came from the Chaplet of Divine Mercy. (note the "winky face")

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

My mother is strong believer in the Divine Mercy devotion and tries to spread it around amongst here family and friends. I have nothing against it and have prayed the chaplet before. There is an interesting mixture of Eastern and Western prayers and themes contained in the various chaplet prayers (including the Trysigon). This may be explained by the devotions origination in Poland, which is on the border between Eastern and Western Christianity.

You can imagine my surprise the first time I attended a Byzantine Liturgy several years ago and learned that part of the liturgy came from the Chaplet of Divine Mercy. (note the "winky face")

I don't think Christ God appreciates all this back stabbing and arguing. It is exactly what the evil one wants us to do. How many inquiorers will convert to Orthodoxy if they saw argument and anger among us? We need to show a sense of unity and a pious, prayerful Christian Church! May the Lord have mercy on us all!Lani