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Sunday, January 24, 2010

More South of Citgo Witnesses Ignored by CIT

I'm shocked, shocked I tell you, to discover that the CIT-heads are full of it with regard to the account of Dawn Vignola.

At the time, there was only vacant land and buildings under construction in between their building and the Pentagon, and these did not obstruct their view of the heliport. Since then, shorter buildings have been built in that area, but they still can still clearly see the upper floors of the Pentagon. In person everything appears much larger and clearer than it does on the accompanying video; when the camera is zoomed in, it actually gives a better idea of how large everything appears in person. Dawn and Tim had a clear view of the impact side and the airspace over the Pentagon, and would have seen the plane fly over- or seen something else hit- if that had happened. In addition, Dan’s office across the Potomac River had a view of the airspace over the Pentagon; he was looking at it while on the phone with Dawn, and saw the black smoke rising, but did not see a plane flying over or away from the Pentagon.

Good job by Erik Larson, who is a "Truther", but is not delusional like the creeps from CIT.

In 2007, they were interviewed by Citizen Investigation Team (CIT), who attempted to discredit their testimony.

But not investigate them for anything... no they just want to discredit people without doing any real investigative work. And before Brian Good comes on and says asking questions to descredit is part of an investigation, or some other dumb shit like that, I will have to say no, that's bullshit. Part of an investigation is to gather information. Not qoute mine or engineer what's said to fit your insane theory.

blogger Steven Welch alleged that Tim was ‘coaching’ Dawn in her account, and claimed neither testimony could be considered credible.

Because her husband was in the background telling her what HE saw so she could relay that through the phone?

So when me and my wife were interveiwed by the police a year ago, and I was doing roughly the same thing Tim was.. that couldn't be taken as credible then..

Uh... it's sort of natural when an event like 9/11 happens, to want to tell everyone what you saw that you even talk over your wife or whoever else is near.

But no, this obviously means he's a paid shill for the government.

CIT insists they’re objective and have not done anything improper in their investigation and reporting.

Oh, so attempting to use an investigation to discredit someone isn't improper? Cue Brian Good.. "Billman. When the truth is concerned... blah blah blah."

From the blogger's site:In an effort not to succumb to the other side's heavy-handed tactics, I'll only allude

(because like all troofers, you're too chicken shit to make an actual accusation...)

with a subtle tap on the gentle reader's shoulder, by quoting Dawn's last observation,

"This was right, aimed right at it. But unfortunately I think it hit the heliport,and it didn’t look like it damaged too much of the Pentagon"This was followed by her prompter's (Tim Timmerman's) correction: "Fortunately."

You do get it don't you?

ZOMG! HAXXORS! I DO GET IT! IT PROVES 9/11 WAS AN INSIDE JOB! ...Somehow..

I'm not sure Ranke is delusional. I think he may simply be a very cynical liar. I wouldn't be surprised if his intention all along was to play an elaborate prank on the Truth movement, and once he got famous in the media as a truther he would reveal that the whole thing was a hoax. He just never got famous enough that anyone would care.

I'm not sure Ranke is delusional. I think he may simply be a very cynical liar. I wouldn't be surprised if his intention all along was to play an elaborate prank on the Truth movement, and once he got famous in the media as a truther he would reveal that the whole thing was a hoax. He just never got famous enough that anyone would care.

C'mon Pat. Why must you "lie?" It's obvious that anyone who says they witnessed the plane south of Citgo is a paid-off shill for the government.Hell, one CT nutjob once remarked that everyone at the Pentagon were 'Faithful Christians', just like Bish, and thus they could be relied on to keep quiet about a possible fly-over!

I wouldn't be surprised if his intention all along was to play an elaborate prank on the Truth movementDo you see conspiracy and elaborate tricks everywhere? Is it that hard to believe that there are actually people out there who believe insane things? Or are you just bothered by the fact that they all gravitate towards the "Truth" movement?

Pp, no it is not hard to believe that people believe insane things, and many of you who post here prove it every day.

Yes! Like the guy babbling about radio beacons and patsies and the US invasion of Canada and CIA heroin rings and pyroclastic flows and thermite and MIHOP and LIHOP together and smoldering carpets and nomadic fires and non-explosive jet fuel and.......

Craig is such a persistent liar, though, and such an ingenious sophist, that I suspect that it's very possible that he doesn't really believe any of what he says.

Good job by Erik Larson, who is a "Truther", but is not delusional like the creeps from CIT.

Anybody who is a "truther" is just as delusional as someone who believes fairies are about to fly out of their ass.

The Pentagon flyover theory pushed by the CITers is no more or less absolutely and completely insane than the "controlled demolition" of WTC7 using the magical fairy dust known as "super thermite" or any other stupid troother theory.

Heh, why do you kookloon ultra-nationalists keep insisting nano-thermite doesn't exist, referring to it as "magic dust" or whatever the mockery of the day is?

Clearly it existed (Tillotson et al, '99). You can debate about how much of it existed, how effective it was, how far DoD was with its research, yes.

But you can't pretend it doesn't exist or didn't exist before 2001. It did.

(Which is why Ryan Mackey openly discusses the thermodynamic properties of various nano-thermite formulations at JREF. He knows and admits it exists, only you kookloon flagsucking bootlickers don't, making it quite apparent how much it scares you)

"kookloon ultra-nationalists" that's a new one! I like it. Clearly only far-right jingoists dismiss truthers as nutcases. You know, far-right jingoists like Noam Chomsky and Bill Maher. Do any of the sane posters here know why nano-thermite's existence changes anything, given that the mechanism of structural failure of all three buildings at the WTC has already been explained over and over again? Do any on the insane side of the isle have a source proving the existence of "nano-thermite"?

KLU, the mechanism of structural failure has NOT been explained. The handwaving argument implicitly invokes Bazant's piledriver theory, but won't actually go so far as to assert it. NIST stops their analysis at the moment of collapse initiation, and thus fails to address the biggest mysteries: the faiklures' symmetry, totality, and speed.

Exercise that putrid walnut leftover of a brain of yours and actually read the source, you deceitful cretin. Is reading a bridge too far for you wide-eyed pseudoskeptic parade monkeys? Are you generally stupid or are you a full-time specialist?

"In addition, we developed a new synthesis route for preparing inorganic oxidizing gel networks from inexpensive hydrated iron salts. By adding a metal fuel (e.g., aluminum) to the sol prior to gelation, we were successful in synthesizing pyrotechnic nanocomposites(thermites, as shown in the figure)"

Pg. 181 (8-11)

Nano-thermite exists. It's as real as the trailer parks most of you drooling primates live in. Depending on the formulation, it can be used as propellant, igniter or explosive.In fact, it has even found uses in the medical industry in the same way nitroglycerin has.

This blog is Darwin's zoo. You folks.... are a standing refutation of intelligent life. One step down from plankton on the evolutionary ladder. Taking a break from rodeo and groping your sister for some reading is apparently too much to ask.

Wow. I'm starting to see why they don't even bother arguing with you morons anymore. Let me quote everyone else here: "Seek professional help, Brian." And stop projecting, you're the only unemployed prole who lives in a trailer park.

NIST stops their analysis at the moment of collapse initiation,Because that is what real structural engineers are concerned with. They want to know how the structural integrity failed. Explaining your hallucinations about the collapse is not their job, that is the job of the psychiatrist you should be visiting.and thus fails to address the biggest mysteries: the faiklures' symmetry, totality, and speed.As is obvious in any of the youtube videos you watch a hundred times a day, the collapse wasn't symmetrical. The speed of the collapse isn't a mystery to anyone who has passed middle school physics. Perhaps you can show us otherwise with your sophisticated rake-on-rake models? Or maybe a meatball and a fork?

"Anonymous said... Exercise that putrid walnut leftover of a brain of yours and actually read the source, you deceitful cretin. Is reading a bridge too far for you wide-eyed pseudoskeptic parade monkeys? Are you generally stupid or are you a full-time specialist?"

Insanity, n.1 : a deranged state of the mind usually occurring as a specific disorder2: a : extreme folly or unreasonableness b : something utterly foolish or unreasonable

Does anyone else think petgoat has developed multiple personalities? He posts a calm paragraph about how NIST fails to explain the (nonexistant) symmetrical collapse of WTC 7 then posts another ranting and raving about his trailer park and Darwin's zoo...

Anon at 14:06 can't be Krazee, it's grammatically sound writing and the writer uses unnecessarily large words in an attempt to sound smart but only reveals his lack of experience in a real academic environment. This is a fun game! Guess the troofer. Plus I thought Boron posts with that image... of what I think is a person.

You idiots. Has it occurred to you that the radio button "Anonymous" is available to more than just this imaginary "Brian" character you guys seem obsessed with? I came here specifically to school you incompetent hacks about nano-thermite. The issue at hand here is not whether nano-thermite was present in WTC dust. That is another discussion, one which I would also win. The issue at hand is that some of you ultra-nationalist loserkooks actually have the gall to deny the very existence of nano-thermite.

After quoting Tillotson (just one of multiple sources, but relevant because of the fact that Tillotson's experiments are often subject of discussion) multiple times, you underdeveloped numbskulls still can't get it through your trailer park pot heads that nano-thermite exists. Fine. Then I will quote Ryan Mackey, prominent pseudoskeptic cited often by Pat Curley.

(emphasis mine)

"The advantages of the nanothermite -- the real nanothermite made by Tillotson and his team -- are that it is more uniform and predictable, has a relatively fast reaction time, and has a substantially LOWER ignition temperature than normal thermite, yet high relative to some other compounds including explosives. However, it has an extremely low energy density, about 1/30th that of ordinary gasoline, and 1/3 that of TNT."

Has it occurred to you that the radio button "Anonymous" is available to more than just this imaginary "Brian" character you guys seem obsessed with?

You see, Brian, this is why I've asked you to pick a name like 20 times now. Not only does your insistence on "Anonymous" make your stupidity indistinguishable from other peoples' stupidity, but said others are claiming you don't even exist. You want to exist, don't you Brian? PICK A GODDAMN NAME. NOW.

The issue at hand here is not whether nano-thermite was present in WTC dust. That is another discussion, one which I would also win.By all means, please educate us poor ignorant sheeple.

Lab notes: Notice the word "win." This is consistent with the theory that truthers are really just concerned with "winning" arguments on blogs, fascinating. This subject is quite irate and is quite set on proving his vast intellect, consistent with the narcissism and superiority complexes prevalent among truthers. His repeated reference to trailer parks suggests economic insecurity on the part of the subject.The more we understand this disorder, the closer we come to a cure!

I dunno LL, this guy sounds a lot more assertive than Brian and keeps calling us "ultra-nationalists" and babbling on about trailer parks. But I'm confident that he's going to explain to us:A. How do you know it exists, and can you verify this with evidence?B. What is "nano" about nano-thermite?C. Where is the evidence that it was used to bring down which buildings?

Hmm.. "nano-thermite" does exist. Of course that proves absolutely nothing about 9-11. The Russians just built a thermobaric weapon (Father of all Bombs) using nano-technology. I'm eagerly awaiting an explanation as to how this technology was used to bring down the WTC.

By all means, please educate us poor ignorant sheeple.You're welcome. Just tune your arrogance to your knowledge level. (Hint: you're going to have to be modest)

Lab notes:Notice the word "win." This is consistent with the theory that truthers are really just concerned with "winning" arguments on blogs, fascinating. This subject is quite irate and is quite set on proving his vast intellect, consistent with the narcissism and superiority complexes prevalent among truthers. His repeated reference to trailer parks suggests economic insecurity on the part of the subject. The more we understand this disorder, the closer we come to a cure!

Your faux-psychoanalysis is all you have left, shanty town. Rest assured: winning is not a priority. Taking off the kid gloves with this particularly malignant, cultist and McCarthyist form of pseudoskepticism is. No Einstein-grade intellect is required, just brutal honesty. Honesty, you treasonous rat, do you know it?

I fail to see what is Mccarthyist about debunking conspiracy theories. You, and many others, make the incorrect assumption that people who do not agree with you are right-wing nuts. Why hasn't 9-11 "truth" caught on with even leftist thinkers like Chomsky? You seem much more intelligent than the usual truthers, and harder to provoke with faux-psychoanalysis (which I admit was my goal). You've already convinced me of the existence of nano-thermite, maybe you will now be able to prove that nano-thermite was used to take down the WTC?

Reality as the Debunker Cult tries to propel it! Arhoolie's the name, kicking your ass is what I'm all about.Poor,poor pitiful PornBoy is some kind of whiner,ain't he? Not one thread on leaky faucet Anthony Shaffer stepping up.Hmmm.

Anon, seriously, you're the first "member of the opposition" to appear on this site who is making any sense. I'm curious to hear your perspective and sources of information. Here, I'll even start. My alt-news sites include:http://www.isgp.eu/http://cryptogon.com/I avoid any site run by christian fundamentalists.

You fail to realize that some frequenters of this site are undecided. You've vented your anger and managed to convince at least one person (me) of nano-thermite's existence and that not all truthers are morons like Krazee. AT LEAST let me know where you get your news.

Nano-thermite exists. It's as real as the trailer parks most of you drooling primates live in. Depending on the formulation, it can be used as propellant, igniter or explosive.In fact, it has even found uses in the medical industry in the same way nitroglycerin has.

You haven't been coming here for very long, genius. Nanothermites have been around forever. WE here know this. They're used in fireworks, ammunition, etc... but they aren't used in any mega building destroying explosives (except in underwater demolitions).

NANOSTRUCTURED SUPER THERMITE does not exist currently. Nor did it back in 2001. It has been proposed as early as... 2005 I believe. But it still does not physically exist. And other nanostructured materials proposed that could have lead to the idea of the specific NANOSTRUCTURED SUPER THERMITE that you troofers believe in, were thought up in early 2001. But as for an actual product, it didn't exist then, and still doesn't now.

But the specific Nanostructured SUPER DOOPER MEGA THERMITE that jones claims exists, which is supposed to have properties that all other nanostructured thermites don't, DOES NOT EXIST.

(Secret) military R&D for the last fifteen to twenty years has mostly been focusing on creating sol-gels (xerogels, aerogels) of nano-thermite. Tillotson is one of the pioneers st LLNL.

Aerogels aren't an explosive (unless that something new they've decided to try to apply them to). They're lighter than air materials they are trying to use for space travel as an exteremly light weight thermal insulator. Now you're saying they EXPLODE?!!! WOW! Not much use as a thermal insulator if they fucking explode.

Not to mention.... The reason twoof morons are obsessed about "thermite" in the first place is Steve Jones' brain dead paper where he found it in dust samples supposedly collected from a crazy lady's apartment near WTC.

1) The chain of custody of his samples is a freaking joke.2) He claimed that the normal chemical signature of pulverized wallboard that he found had to be caused by "thermite" because he's a dumb stupid idiot.

Not to mention.... The reason twoof morons are obsessed about "thermite" in the first place is Steve Jones' brain dead paper where he found it in dust samples supposedly collected from a crazy lady's apartment near WTC.

1) The chain of custody of his samples is a freaking joke.2) He claimed that the normal chemical signature of pulverized wallboard that he found had to be caused by "thermite" because he's a dumb stupid idiot.

Jones is a moron.

Not to mention the chemical spectrograph he claims is "ZOMG! NANOSTRUCTURED SUPER THERMITE" exactly matches the chemical spectrograph of Kaolinite, I.E. the sulfur shit that's in wallboard.

P.S. I live in a nice city apartment. And you?Is that what they're calling the projects these days...I think I recognize this guy's hyper-aggressive style. He was on here a few months back claiming that David Shayler only went crazy because "they" made him. Of course it could be different tweeker. Truthers really hate this site don't they?

Why go to the trouble of risking an important black-op/fasle-flag/insert your crack-pot theory here mission using an experimental agent like Nanothermite (that probably doesn't exist)? If the plan was to bring down the WTC, and your plan involves a controlled demolition, then why not use a truck-bomb instead of hijacking commercial jets?

Or...

If you wanted to bring down the twin towers, and you have gone to the trouble of hijacking commercial jets to fly into each building, why would you risk discovery of your evil plan by lacing the building with a rare agent like nanothermite? Thermite leaves a trace, every demolitions expert will recognize it's trace on the steel beams. Also, anyone at Freshkills who had served in the US Army or USMC would als be able to spot the work of thermite from a mile away. Why risk your perfect plan with such a bonehead play?

I mean if it were me, I would have just flown a 767 into each tower because that would be enough to bring them down...wait a second...

KLU, the mechanism of structural failure has NOT been explained. The handwaving argument implicitly invokes Bazant's piledriver theory, but won't actually go so far as to assert it. NIST stops their analysis at the moment of collapse initiation, and thus fails to address the biggest mysteries: the faiklures' symmetry, totality, and speed.

Brian, just because you're too stupid/ignorant to understand the NIST report doesn't mean it doesn't explain everything it was supposed to explain.

Now I don't ever want to see you neocon lickspittles ask for "proof" or a "source proving" that nano-thermite exists ever again.

"Shanty town"? You know, you might be able to resolve some of your anger issues if you just lit up a joint and listened to some Desmond Dekker ("dem a loot, dem a shoot, dem a wail, in shanty town"). You might even get laid too.

"I came here for three reasons:

* To vent my anger at arrogant stupidity.* To call SLC frequenters names in various enjoyable ways.* To set the record straight about nano-thermite. It exists."

I have come here to kick ass and chew bubblegum....and I'm all out of bubblegum.

Maybe watching some John Carpenter movies (after smoking a joint) would help your anger issues too?

Does anyone know who the Truther with 'roid-rage was?

Maybe a CITer? They always appear in CIT-related posts and those posts only.

"Brian, just because you're too stupid/ignorant to understand the NIST report doesn't mean it doesn't explain everything it was supposed to explain."

Not knowing is a huge advantage for your average truther. If they knew exactly how controlled demolition are done, why they use shaped charges and detonation cord, why pre-cutting of the structure is done, and knew the physics involved it would throw too much doubt into their little fantasy. It's a religion in that way. Don't show me the fact or I may kill my faith.

You will never see a truther try and explain exactly how the use of any of their unconventional controlled demolition techniques would work. They default to the logical fallacy that because event "A" was not explained, ergo event "B" is true. Never mind the fact no one has even demonstrated "B" is feasible.

Originally Posted by adam syedneither dawn vignola nor erik larsen has been able to cite where cit misrepresented her account. Cit has never uploaded any audio of their discussions with dawn at all. They have never even quoted her from their discussions. Now you have to agree, it is pretty hard to twist the words of someone that you have not even quoted.

The entirety of their report from their experience with dawn vignola is in an article detailing their 2007 research trip here:

http://z3.invisionfree.com/cit/index.php?showtopic=26

you can clearly see that they did not say anything different about her account than what erik just reported. She has no basis to attack them at all.

She states:

"the last time i trusted someone in this sort of matter, in particular craig and aldo, i found my words being distorted, taken out of context, and/or insinuations that i meant something other than what i said.".

Yet she refused to give them an interview. This means she obviously she did not trust them nor did they "distort" any of her words. This is why neither she nor larson can cite a single example. Their experience with dawn was a full year after they obtained the interviews with lagasse and brooks and the pentacon had already been public for about 10 months.

In fact i was talking with craig, and he told me that dawn and her husband had told them over the phone that they watched the pentacon before letting cit into their home. So they knew full well what cit had uncovered and had already decided that she was not going to go on camera.

But it can not be disputed, as now confirmed by larsen, that they clearly would not have been able to see that critical final moment in the flight path where the plane flew north of the citgo. So whether vignola and timmerman were distracted by the fireball and missed the flyover, or whether there is something else going on here, we will never know. We do, however, know that they 100% can not refute the north side approach due to their pov. There is nothing cited in this long article demonstrating deception or misrepresentation on the part of cit.

They will eventually publish a formal response to this but in the mean time if erik wants to refute the north side approach evidence i suggest he focuses on witnesses who could actually see the citgo.

So NOW the bag of Bilbones says nanothermite DOES exist.Hmmm......And talk about a drawer full of socks!! There's no stopping the Debunker Cult! And thanks again,Bilbo,for informing us:"THAT"S NOT HOW AN INVESTIGATION WORKS!" Coming from the vanguard of the 9/11 Commission Report defenders,that's truly rich! The firefighting magazine that howled loudly over how the Ground Zero materials were quickly removed without investigation would most assuredly agree.Right?

When did I ever say Nanothermites did not exist, Arhoolie (aka Spacebar Boy). You and I have gone on for threads and threads now about how Nanothermites exist in Fireworks and primers for Ammunition.

It's NANOSTRUCTURED SUPER THERMITE specifically that DOES NOT EXIST. Nor do any nanostructured thermic materials currently in existance or proposed have the qualities that Jones requires for his theory.

You know all this. You're a retard if you think I'm gonna fall for your word changing.

Hmmm......And talk about a drawer full of socks!! There's no stopping the Debunker Cult! And thanks again,Bilbo,for informing us:"THAT"S NOT HOW AN INVESTIGATION WORKS!" Coming from the vanguard of the 9/11 Commission Report defenders,that's truly rich!

I have a private detective's license, so if you wanna argue with me how a real investigation actually works, feel free.

The firefighting magazine that howled loudly over how the Ground Zero materials were quickly removed without investigation would most assuredly agree.Right?

No. Fresh Kills landfill had plenty of the Ground Zero derbis (if not all of it) where it was investigated by FEMA, etc... so pull another lie out of your ass...

By the way, 250 tons of WTC steel were allegedly "stolen by the mafia" from Ground Zero.

and:

"In the month that lapsed between the terrorist attacks and the deployment of the BPAT team, a significant amount of steel debris—including most of the steel from the upper floors—was removed from the rubble pile, cut into smaller sections, and either melted at the recycling plant or shipped out of the U.S. Some of the critical pieces of steel—including the suspension trusses from the top of the towers and the internal support columns—were gone before the first BPAT team member ever reached the site. Fortunately, an NSF-funded independent researcher, recognizing that valuable evidence was being destroyed, attempted to intervene with the City of New York to save the valuable artifacts, but the city was unwilling to suspend the recycling contract. Ultimately, the researcher appealed directly to the recycling plant, which agreed to provide the researcher, and ultimately the ASCE team and the SEAoNY volunteers, access to the remaining steel and a storage area where they could temporarily store important artifacts for additional analysis. Despite this agreement, however, many pieces of steel still managed to escape inspection."

I'm glad you guys are starting to admit that steel was sent there. It certian cancels your arguments that no steel was ever inspected.

I wasn't aware of the Mafia story. That's pretty amusing. There is also a wharehouse full of steel that the government (or some private organization, I forget which) is giving away for free if you build a 9/11 memorial with it.

The point is, steel was availible for inspection (for explosives, thermite, unicorn death rays, etc...) and is STILL availible for inspeciton if you wish.

The only reason anyone talks about the steel here, Roid, is because troofers continue to chant "NO STEEL WAS EVER INSPECTED AND IT WAS ALL SHIPPED AWAY!"

My source is the FEMA report, you incompetent muppet. Do you read? No you don't. You think Al Qaeda sent the anthrax letters, you mentally disturbed kookloon heap of dung.

You've gone funny in the head. Seriously. You're desperately in need of help. I don't say this nonchalantly, or because I 'hate' you. There is nothing to hate. You've gone completely off your fucking rocker and you need therapy. Again, good luck.

Note: As of May 2002, of the 156 steel pieces listed in the spreadsheet, 41 are at the National Institute of Standards, 19 were discarded after coupons were taken, 45 are at the salvage yards, and the rest either were discarded after they were documented or were accidentally processed in the salvage operation before (!!!) or after being documented.

And then PornBoy the Weak said:blah blah woof woof.And then the typing dick,Bilbo,said:blah blah woof woof.The Debunker Cult:now they're saying the cleanup of the site was done "by the books"! Ah,there's no stopping this gang of circle jerking whackjobs.