Here are two reasonably good looking, popular guys who could probably have wild, consensual sex with just about any Stuebenville high school girl -- and they choose to poke the limp, unresponsive body of a girl who they assumed was pretty much dead. And videotape it.

How farking depraved is that?

It's not about the sex, it's abuse and power and privilege.

I'm saddened by the fact that they only get a year, but it's entirely just that anytime someone Googles these kids for the rest of their lives, "guilty of gang rape" is going to come up next to their names. Good luck getting a respectable job or girlfriend down the road, fellas.

Have you read about Halden prison? Worth a look if you have ten minutes to spare.

I don't have any time to spare on "reading assignments" - if you've something to say, and citation to support it, I'll be happy to listen.

It's a prison that treats the inmates as people, no matter what they've done to deserve prison time. They get a modicrum of freedom, education and worthwhile jobs all the while being given trust and respect from the prison staff.Even though they take in murderes and rapists violence is unheard of inside the prison walls and recidivism rates seems very low (although the prison is to new to give any sort of accurate reading of such yet). Inmates leave the prison as better people than they were when they went in. Seems like a good thing.

Halden holds 252 Norwegian prisoners at a cost of about $183,000 per inmate per year. Average cost of federal, state, and local U. S. inmates was about $30,600 each per year in 2007; $74 billion total. If all of those inmates were in Halden, it would have cost over $441 billion per year.

Plus the cost of building 10,000 Haldens: $22.5 billion up front.

"A cell includes amenities such as a television, a refrigerator, unbarred vertical windows that let in more light, and designer furniture. Prisoners share kitchens and living rooms every 10-12 cells, jogging trails, and a sound studio."

bigworld:Here are two reasonably good looking, popular guys who could probably have wild, consensual sex with just about any Stuebenville high school girl -- and they choose to poke the limp, unresponsive body of a girl who they assumed was pretty much dead. And videotape it.

How farking depraved is that?

It's not about the sex, it's abuse and power and privilege.

I'm saddened by the fact that they only get a year, but it's entirely just that anytime someone Googles these kids for the rest of their lives, "guilty of gang rape" is going to come up next to their names. Good luck getting a respectable job or girlfriend down the road, fellas.

My guess is that they have "performance" issues or are secretly gay...NTTAWWT.

I bet both of these kids went to some sort of church - not only should their parents be humiliated for raising sons like this, but also whichever priest/pastor/reverend/rabbi/iman/chaplain that was their "spiritual leader".

Bucky Katt:feckingmorons: GAT_00: bronyaur1: I find it curious that those who defend Fox journalism all of a sudden are outraged about this.

Meh, they have something legitimate to smear CNN with for a change. Of course, since nobody actually watches CNN, this is really not doing a whole lot, but they like to pretend they matter.

GAT_00: bronyaur1: I find it curious that those who defend Fox journalism all of a sudden are outraged about this.

Meh, they have something legitimate to smear CNN with for a change. Of course, since nobody actually watches CNN, this is really not doing a whole lot, but they like to pretend they matter.

I don't really watch any of the cable news stations (or broadcast news stations in the US for that matter) save the local cable one. Not that you can see this because you ignore opinions that are not in lockstep with yours.

BarkingUnicorn:I think rape is unique because of the element of consent. Investigations must determine if there was or wan't any. An unbiased investigation must explore both possibilities. A lot of people seem to have a problem with one of the possibilities being explored. Perhaps they don't want victims traumatized. Perhaps they don't want unbiased investigations.

The problem goes beyond police, though. Everyone thinks he/she is an investigator, even of things that happen on the other side of the farking planet.

Agreed- rape exposes a significant flaw in our legal system. To convict someone of a crime, there must be proof beyond reasonable doubt that the person committed the crime. In many instances of rape, especially if it was not obviously injurious, and doubly so if the victim does not seek medical attention or police action immediately, there may be little, if any, physical evidence. If the rape also occurred in a secluded location, then the only evidence available are eyewitness accounts, which, even if honestly recounted by the victim, have been repeatedly shown to be unreliable in stressful situations.

So how do we fix that flaw? We can't lock up people just because they are accused of rape- they are as entitled to due process as anyone else. Neither can we ignore the victims and let rape go unpunished. I don't think we solve any of the problems raised in this thread until we resolve this issue.

Future frat boys stopped before they entered the most fruitful hunting grounds for young rapists: college.

This scenario has been played out so many times without this level of media coverage. Hopefully it deters future bros from this kind of behavior, but I doubt it will since there will always be people out there who will white knight them to the death.

People will always get drunk and fark, but for christ sakes have some respect for others, and at least a shred of self respect.

Bit'O'Gristle:I hope you get gang raped in the ass in prison every night by a well hung tranny who is into inflicting pain, and sells you to all his butt buddies for a pack of smokes, and you end up skinny toothless cum guzzling homo's upon your release.

Anyone actually surprised by this? They were sports players, or ones with the potential to go pro, and now they won't and the town they live in actually supported them over the victim. That is sick enough. Having the news media weep more for them than the victim, that's almost expected at this point. There is an old joke I read once about how you know you've married a liberal when your spouse misses your funeral because they're protesting the harsh sentence received by your killer. That's what's happening here. It's embarrassing that we have a news media that in a rape event, is caring more about the attackers because they were potentially going to be great football players and their victim, by comparison, was a no body.

I am expecting follow ups about this woman being attacked and harassed for pressing charges.

At some point, I hope these boys realize that this conviction may be the greatest good they contribute to society.

Getting young women drunk and taking advantage has been extremely prevalent among student athletes, men of all ages and types, and the marvelous role models they have like Kobe, Ben R. and others don't help.

If you read it it seems like she is disappointed that they threw their young lives away. She is not saying that the rapists are good people or that they don't deserve what they are about to expect, nor does she say anything bad about the victim or show the victim in any negative light.

TLDR; she could have said it better

Why be an apologist for these 'journalists'? They insist on giving us opinion rather than news. Journalism is dead in this country, we have hand wringing actors who bring us snippets of news cloaked in opinion and maudlin sentimentality.

Apologist?

Motherfarker I am always biatching about the media being News Entertainment (coined in the spirit of Vince McMahon's Sports Entertainment) instead of real news.

Sometimes I want to string together the bits from your posts and flay you with them.

This isn't one of those times, and I'm finding myself agreeing with things you say far more often.

Am I changing as I grow older? Are you? Are we both?

/Maybe it's the second job and total lack of sleep after weeks without a day off.

Popcorn Johnny:I've yet to see any evidence that the two kids convicted were guilty of anything other than being douches. Another kid took the widely distributed photo of the girl being carried around and testimony in court said that the one teen stopped any sexual advances once he realized that the girl was unconscious.

Just so we're clear, the tweets talking about "you are so raped" were not sent by one of these two. One of these two did distribute a nude picture of the girl, so the child porn charge is warranted. Doesn't make him a rapist though.

I'll change my stance if somebody can show the evidence against these two.

I think it only fair you use your real name so the women in your life will know that, should they get drunk with you, they're in for a rape. Because they'll be asking for it, right?

rynthetyn:Genevieve Marie: rynthetyn: What pisses me off to no end is that the American media goes and acts like the US is so superior to India when covering the Delhi gang rape case, but then they turn around and do the exact same victim blaming and feeling sorry for the rapists that they love to point fingers about when it happens elsewhere.

You're not the first to make the comparison and it's most certainly a fair and accurate one. Anyone that denies we live in a rape culture isn't paying attention.

At least people in India are starting to admit they have a problem, most Americans are convinced that we're all find and dandy.

One of my friends (and occasional farker) took part in this demonstration in Delhi this week where men held signs apologizing and making the statement that the change starts with them. I'd be shocked to ever see something like that here in the US.

To some extent, yes, but the evolutionary psychology suggests that at some point in history, serial rapers were really good at spreading their genes. Abuse, power, and privilege may be what a (male) rapist is consciously craving, but the bottomline is that some part of his design information is telling his subconscious to do whatever it can to replicate itself. Not a popular or nice thought, and not an argument that should be used to condone rape, but it may help explain why it remains common amongst a large minority of the human population.

vudukungfu:Philbb: Just as an aside; would they have been talking about these boys ruining their lives if they were not football players? If they had been, perhaps, very good students and members of the school band?

The lack of interest in the victim doesn't surprise me at all. I've known that since the beginning of the Penn State scandal when so people were all broke up over losing a coach and had no sympathy for the alleged victims.

Football is big business. Therefore, members of the football community have acted with impunity in a culture of rape for many, many moons.Which is why I compare Football culture to Pakistani Culture. Both groups have the same mindset. Our cause is the greater cause and our people (male) can do no wrong. Women cannot play. But they can be used as chattel.Gooooooooooooooo Team!

Yes! All football players are rapists! Pakistani football players doubley so. I think that's where the term "rape rape" originated.

It's not football culture, it's team sports culture. In HS, these kids are often held up as athletes and begin to feel entitled. I've never heard a coach tell a team that "no means no", on the other hand i've never heard any one of them condone or suggest drugging a taking advantage of anyone.

vudukungfu:badhatharry: A big problem is that she was brought to multiple parties and nobody stopped them.

Who supplied the alcohol?If it had been Ecstasy or heroin, you better believe there would be an all out man hunt to find out where the impairment substances came from.Not One Word About where the alcohol came from.

Will you and all the other instant-karma types please wait for the grand jury that's been convened?!

They're lives weren't ruined when they were adjudicated delinquent (in juvenile court that is tantamount to a guilty verdict), their lives were ruined when they decided to be rapists.

They'll be in detention for a year or at most until they are 21.

Big fecking deal.

Do they have to register as sex offenders for the rest of their lives? Thats what will ruin their lives and any chance of decent employment.

I think the issue here is that it stops them from getting football scholarships. One of them even said it after the verdict. "Nobody will want me now" I don't think he was worried about getting a girlfriend though he'll probably have a tough time with that too. Will probably get to be the girl friend all he wants for the next year or so. If he wanted to salvage anything he would have plead guilt and said "I was drunk and stupid I deserve what I get" That I would have respected.

ginandbacon:How on earth does anyone object to the term rape culture? What else would you call the mores of a group that condone and minimize the horror of sexual assault?

How does her being intoxicated even come up in this discussion? I got plenty drunk at her age and nary a one of the guys I was partying with raped me. Usually they just stuck a pillow under my head and threw a blanket over me. Because they weren't, you know, rapists.That kind of behavior was frowned upon in the environment I grew up in. Sort of the opposite of a rape culture if you will.

The girl's family has received death threats. Because she reported an assault.

The authorities and adults in charge were complicit.

And assholes are lamenting the ruined futures of a couple of predators who kidnapped and raped a girl who had the audacity to break up with one of their teammates.

Yogimus:Most rape is predation. It is not a spontaneous event. The mark is chosen, groomed, separated from the crowd, and preyed upon. That whole "I thought she wanted it" is just a lie they tell after the fact, often to themselves as well as others.

You know, when you make valid points like this, it's difficult for me to ignore-list you over your habit of telling rape victims that they should have done more to stop their attackers.

I'm torn. As the father of two girls, I'd just as soon see these bastards castrated.

Then my "social conditioning" kicks in, and suddenly it's not so simple anymore. Poor guys, can't get any booty by honest means, have to resort to stealing it. Then we have all these conservative females, hoarding all the booty and unwilling to share it.

Maybe there ought to be a regressive "Booty Tax" to help out the less fortunate, so they don't have to resort to a life of crime?

BarkingUnicorn:Halden holds 252 Norwegian prisoners at a cost of about $183,000 per inmate per year. Average cost of federal, state, and local U. S. inmates was about $30,600 each per year in 2007; $74 billion total. If all of those inmates were in Halden, it would have cost over $441 billion per year.

If the Halden model rehabilitates criminals into productive members of society, and US prisons do nothing to limit recidivism and in fact foster an environment of career criminalism*, then what does it matter what their respective costs are. One works, the other doesn't.

The same way you teach people that might *does not* make right, in general.There's no shortage of behaviors that arise 'naturally' in less civilized, if not outright primitive or anarchic, settings. (theft, murder, cannibalism, slavery, etc.)These things can be taught, taught against or all-but-ignored and thus passively permitted.

Western Civlization, today, is pretty good about teaching against quite a few of them.Rape, however, still tends to fall under all-but-ignored and thus passive-permitted.Particularly when it involves "promising"/"prominent" individuals.

keylock71:The only thing these two little assholes were remorseful for is posting it online and getting caught...

They got off easy, legally, though, and I hope where ever they go for they rest of their lives, someone will be there to let these rapists' coworkers and friends know what they did.

THIS...

What I find sad is the notion that somewhere it was said that they didn't believe that they were doing anything wrong, that this was common practice.

Sad... but at some point I have to admit, I've noticed that there is a lot of online amateur crap that does this "scenario", so that they are desensitized is not really a big surprise. If I go with the online stuff, I'd have to believe that there is not a single attractive woman left in the US that isn't in one of these "home movies", especially college girls.

But the truth is that these kids don't appear to be the type to have been explained the difference between real and fiction, and right and wrong.

vudukungfu:Football is big business. Therefore, members of the football community have acted with impunity in a culture of rape for many, many moons.Which is why I compare Football culture to Pakistani Culture. Both groups have the same mindset. Our cause is the greater cause and our people (male) can do no wrong. Women cannot play. But they can be used as chattel.Gooooooooooooooo Team!

If they had not been prosecuted, they could have had a career as cops or political flunkies. Similar mindset.

It seems to me that a large part of the problem is how we, as a culture, approach the topic of sex, especially along gender lines. Sex is treated like a commodity, like a possession. Guys "get laid"1 and it doesn't seem too much of a stretch that a guy who feels he deserves this commodity will attempt to take it. But sex isn't something someone gets, has2, or is given. Sex is something two (or more, if you're into that) people do.

When my lady and I are intimate, we are engaging in a mutually pleasurable activity together, because we both want to.

I'm also troubled by the "sex = manhood" mindset. Whether or not I have engaged in sexual activity has nothing to do with whether or not I'm a Man. One is a Man when one behaves as a Man, and acts as a Man should (With honour, courage, and nobility, for a start). I don't want to threadjack this into a discussion of what makes a Man, so I'm not going to elaborate further, but "has experienced sex" doesn't appear anywhere in the list.

1. yes, I know some women use the same terminology, but that's a recent development, and an indication of a relaxation of moral standards than maintained women weren't supposed to be interested in sex, which is tangentical to what I'm talking about2. has as in possesses

HAMMERTOE:I'm torn. As the father of two girls, I'd just as soon see these bastards castrated.

Then my "social conditioning" kicks in, and suddenly it's not so simple anymore. Poor guys, can't get any booty by honest means, have to resort to stealing it. Then we have all these conservative females, hoarding all the booty and unwilling to share it.

Maybe there ought to be a regressive "Booty Tax" to help out the less fortunate, so they don't have to resort to a life of crime?

Are you comparing rape to various socialist policies? Or were you going for the wealth redistribution idea?

They're lives weren't ruined when they were adjudicated delinquent (in juvenile court that is tantamount to a guilty verdict), their lives were ruined when they decided to be rapists.

They'll be in detention for a year or at most until they are 21.

Big fecking deal.

Do they have to register as sex offenders for the rest of their lives? Thats what will ruin their lives and any chance of decent employment.

According to a Ohio lawyer friend of mine that did appellate work for sex offenders, yes, they would. Possibly as a Tier 3, which is tantamount to being found guilty of rape (or other serious sexual crime) as an adult.

Finally, an instance of the sex offender law that works exactly as it's intended to.

LiteWerk:So those sick people feel sorry for the PERPS rather than the victim? Really??!! I think they may deserve more jail time than they've been given. And to be clear, the arrogant, self-entitled little punks brought it upon themselves. Also, after they get out of jail, I expect them to give every female they encounter for the rest of their sorry lives the utmost respect in every situation, or else hopefully a bunch of bigger guys beats the crap out of them. Would also hope every young female they encounter refuses to have anything with their disgusting selves.

/they should be shunned for the rest of their lives

Is your world so black and white? It is possible to feel sorry for everyone involved you know. I don't feel sorry for any of them but I'm not a very empathetic person and honestly don't care much for my fellow humans so I guess I'm a bad person for not wasting the emotional energy.

Either way, it is possible to have empathy for everyone. It is okay to discuss that empathy even.

poot_rootbeer:BarkingUnicorn: Halden holds 252 Norwegian prisoners at a cost of about $183,000 per inmate per year. Average cost of federal, state, and local U. S. inmates was about $30,600 each per year in 2007; $74 billion total. If all of those inmates were in Halden, it would have cost over $441 billion per year.

If the Halden model rehabilitates criminals into productive members of society, and US prisons do nothing to limit recidivism and in fact foster an environment of career criminalism*, then what does it matter what their respective costs are. One works, the other doesn't.

(* don't know if either part of this is proven true)

This is a good point; the calculated "true" cost of a prison sentence should include estimates on reduction in recidivism rates. On the other hand, rehabilitating doesn't mean coddling. Prison education and work placement programs have been shown to drive down repeat offenses; I doubt the same can be said for giving inmates fridges and TVs.

Notice that what gives these Loverboys such a pass by these media cretins is that they were "promising star football players". Like as if that dirty slut destroyed some billionaire a couple of draft picks for his college football racket. Boo farking hoo hoo hoo! Seems this culture really needs a brain enema to flush out this football jock worship they have. Football is NOT everything.

rynthetyn:What pisses me off to no end is that the American media goes and acts like the US is so superior to India when covering the Delhi gang rape case, but then they turn around and do the exact same victim blaming and feeling sorry for the rapists that they love to point fingers about when it happens elsewhere.

Ok am I missing something here? I'll grant you I have given scant attention to this case, but wasn't this a situation wherein two guys fingering a passed out girl? When I read the article I was stunned that it referred to this incident as a brutal gang rape. Now you're comparing this to the Indian incidents. Do I not know something about this case or are there really people who don't grasp the huge divide between fingering a passed out girl and actual violent public bloody gang rape of a screaming woman who later dies from the injuries?

UnspokenVoice:LiteWerk: So those sick people feel sorry for the PERPS rather than the victim? Really??!! I think they may deserve more jail time than they've been given. And to be clear, the arrogant, self-entitled little punks brought it upon themselves. Also, after they get out of jail, I expect them to give every female they encounter for the rest of their sorry lives the utmost respect in every situation, or else hopefully a bunch of bigger guys beats the crap out of them. Would also hope every young female they encounter refuses to have anything with their disgusting selves.

/they should be shunned for the rest of their lives

Is your world so black and white? It is possible to feel sorry for everyone involved you know. I don't feel sorry for any of them but I'm not a very empathetic person and honestly don't care much for my fellow humans so I guess I'm a bad person for not wasting the emotional energy.

Either way, it is possible to have empathy for everyone. It is okay to discuss that empathy even.