We already had some discussion under another topic and ran away with it.

I was just wondering what all your opinion is about "preservation" and/or what it means to you. What do you feel sbould be preserved? Will manmade labels influence you, and if so, to what degree? Will the definition Blue Star or Blue List be detrimental to your breeding decisions? Please answer in fairness, respecting each opinion issued.

ThanksHansi

jerelkerby

May 9 2012, 07:42 PM

Preservation of a 'good and long legacy' not just of our horses, but of each other and ourselves...... please do not let this digress into an argument. They say we can not control others and the only control we have is over ourselves. Jerel

HLM

May 9 2012, 08:00 PM

QUOTE (jerelkerby @ May 9 2012, 09:42 PM)

Preservation of a 'good and long legacy' not just of our horses, but of each other and ourselves...... please do not let this digress into an argument. They say we can not control others and the only control we have is over ourselves. Jerel

Yes Jerel, that's why I said "be fair". I strongly believe in preserving the Asil Arabian Hoprse, regardless of manmade label, but only the best. Best means, if you can say I can ride on this horse from your home to Los Angeles without walking backon foot. To clarify this, it means the horse must have conformation to do difficult tasks, must have the stamina, speed ,endurance and courage to tackle anything and be safe for the rider, which means a good attitude.

Those were the Arabians imported by many nations to improve their breeding programs. By and large these were and are master breeders and I see their foresight and knowledge in many. What did not cut the muster through testing, was not alowed to breed. this BTW went on in most all warmblood breeds as well and is still done by and large.

Yes, the legacy must be preserved, as well as the good horses.This takes knowledge/experience and the willingness to try,test and sacrifice, this is not for the faint hearted either.It WILL ALWAYS BE TRIAL AND ERROR AND LEARNING FROM IT, AS WE ALL WILL TO THE END OF OUR LIVES. that's the ingredience I feel.

However, there are horses of all breeds which still serve a purpose, for the handicapped,the children, the oldies,who simply enjoy riding or driving them around the block, so to speak. I deeply respect those kind of horses, so willing,understanding and forgiving. Therfore, each quality has a purpose or can have one..Arabvians with their super intelligence are possibly the best suited ones.

Your idea of having that coffee meeting is wonderful and I pray it be of great help.

Take careHansi

Marilee

May 9 2012, 08:11 PM

To me, what needs to be preserved is the spirit and ancestry of our horses, and what attracted us to them in the first place. What sets them apart, how they are different from others--whether it is SE or EB/ER or any sub groups or other breeds. Sometimes a pure or straight anything IS a better horse;sometimes it is NOT. Sometimes the outcross or the hybrid vigor of the cross creates something again different and special, a blending of the two parents, or maybe an expression of a grandparent or another visual combination of ancestors (genotype vs phenotype). I think we all have our own preferences, but we do need to accept what else is out there, for fear of only teaching and showing and marketing to ourselves, and therefore closing in the circle of available genetic power.

Many years ago as a kid, I read lots of horse books, but thought that Arabians were pretty fiery, and pretty much out of my league (I guess financially). I found out that was not true, that there were exceptions to everything, and that through education and study of other's successes and failures, watching the show ring (but not believing everything I was seeing), I refined my eye for a horse......still liking many horses of many different breeds and types, but seeming to zero in on some bloodlines, which usually had the traits I preferred (beauty, intelligence, heart, athleticism, longevity, good ambassadors for the public). I ended up with some quite awesome horses, but have not been able to preserve them due to things that have happened in my life, not due to their importance to me or their characteristics or their rarity of genetic combinations.

If everyone liked the same type of horse, there would be no need or want for preservation of other groups or types. Genetic variation is great. In today's economy many excellent horses are not being reproduced or replaced, preservation or not. It is very hard to find others to carry on one's dream or passion with the horses, either within your own family or outside of it.. Money does not equal dedication or belief in one's horses. So to me preservation should be about trying to save or saving as many great horses as possible that are in danger of becoming "extinct" bloodlines. Sometimes that cannot occur, due to loss of the stallion or mare through death or injury and not having replacements for them to carry on. Sometimes (especially from get of stallions, not SE) lots of horses are produced, more because of money or to attract buyers/sales rather than to create quality. Again the economy has played a huge impact on this. Restoring the respect for our horses to the public, and continuing to educate honestly against other breeds (why the Arabian was so instrumental in creating other breeds and in giving outcross blood), is part of this preservation. If one truly loves the horses one has, and respects them, there should be no need to disrespect other breeds or preservation groups. There is room out there for all of us, and we have far more in common than in difference.

Caryn Rogosky

May 9 2012, 08:20 PM

QUOTE (Marilee @ May 9 2012, 09:11 PM)

To me, what needs to be preserved is the spirit and ancestry of our horses, and what attracted us to them in the first place. What sets them apart, how they are different from others--whether it is SE or EB/ER or any sub groups or other breeds. Sometimes a pure or straight anything IS a better horse;sometimes it is NOT. Sometimes the outcross or the hybrid vigor of the cross creates something again different and special, a blending of the two parents, or maybe an expression of a grandparent or another visual combination of ancestors (genotype vs phenotype). I think we all have our own preferences, but we do need to accept what else is out there, for fear of only teaching and showing and marketing to ourselves, and therefore closing in the circle of available genetic power.

Many years ago as a kid, I read lots of horse books, but thought that Arabians were pretty fiery, and pretty much out of my league (I guess financially). I found out that was not true, that there were exceptions to everything, and that through education and study of other's successes and failures, watching the show ring (but not believing everything I was seeing), I refined my eye for a horse......still liking many horses of many different breeds and types, but seeming to zero in on some bloodlines, which usually had the traits I preferred (beauty, intelligence, heart, athleticism, longevity, good ambassadors for the public). I ended up with some quite awesome horses, but have not been able to preserve them due to things that have happened in my life, not due to their importance to me or their characteristics or their rarity of genetic combinations.

If everyone liked the same type of horse, there would be no need or want for preservation of other groups or types. Genetic variation is great. In today's economy many excellent horses are not being reproduced or replaced, preservation or not. It is very hard to find others to carry on one's dream or passion with the horses, either within your own family or outside of it.. Money does not equal dedication or belief in one's horses. So to me preservation should be about trying to save or saving as many horses as possible that are in danger of becoming "extinct" bloodlines. Sometimes that cannot occur, due to loss of the stallion or mare through death or injury and not having replacements for them to carry on. Sometimes (especially stallions, not SE) lots of horses are produced, more because of money or to attract buyers/sales rather than to create quality. Again the economy has played a huge impact on this. Restoring the respect for our horses to the public, and continuing to educate honestly against other breeds (why the Arabian was so instrumental in creating other breeds and in giving outcross blood), is part of this preservation. If one truly loves the horses one has, and respects them, there should be no need to disrespect other breeds or preservation groups. There is room out there for all of us, and we have far more in common than in difference.

Marilee, I love your post. I agree on all points -- thanks.

Marilee

May 9 2012, 08:34 PM

Some of this passion comes from my mentor Julia Byfield, and from her horse to me---Macho REA (Ansata Ibn Sudan X Ann---three lines to Fadjur), himself an outcross of hybrid vigor, a product of thoughtful breeders from the past who did understand preservation of bloodlines, but who also appreciated the outcross.......

Caryn Rogosky

May 9 2012, 09:38 PM

QUOTE (Marilee @ May 9 2012, 09:34 PM)

Some of this passion comes from my mentor Julia Byfield, and from her horse to me---Macho REA (Ansata Ibn Sudan X Ann---three lines to Fadjur), himself an outcross of hybrid vigor, a product of thoughtful breeders from the past who did understand preservation of bloodlines, but who also appreciated the outcross.......

Julia Byfield was a remarkable person, she mentored me as well when I first got involved with SO horses. She was smart, informed and very passionate about preservation. I miss her very much. I think that we are both very lucky to have known her.

Marilee

May 9 2012, 09:51 PM

Yes, and that is the other part of preservation, one can have the horses to preserve or attempt to preserve, but one needs the person with the knowledge and the passion to do so. And who is the next generation?

Dieter

May 9 2012, 10:20 PM

QUOTE (HLM @ May 9 2012, 02:47 PM)

(snipped)I was just wondering what all your opinion is about "preservation" and/or what it means to you. What do you feel sbould be preserved? Will manmade labels influence you, and if so, to what degree? Will the definition Blue Star or Blue List be detrimental to your breeding decisions? Please answer in fairness, respecting each opinion issued. ThanksHansi

First and foremost for the Arabian breed on the whole, a good, solid, overall well balanced, well structured horse with a sound mind needs to be preserved. A horse that can be put under saddle and rise to any occasion. One might think that would be the goal of all breeders and therefore a good horse alone would not need to be labelled as a "preservation" effort. Unfortunately, this is not true. There is no preservation label that can justify a horse crippling before it's time, the passing of mortal disorders, the creation of more disorders or a host of other unacceptable deficits whether that is Polish, Russian, Crabbet, Spanish, Egyptian, Domestic, Blue List, Blue Star, Sheykh Obeyd, Heirloom, Al Khamsa or what have you. If it's not a good horse with less than three major faults, or a host of genetic disorders, or an unsound mind then it needs to be removed from the breeding pool. Each breeder has the opportunity to preserve their own unique type, their own label", so having different types of horses is preserved as created by breeders regardless of not having a preservation label. No man-made label will influence me from continuing to preserve a good horse FIRST or from advocating breeders old and new breed a good horse FIRST regardless of labels. Though the label of pure Egyptian horse is my preference to breed forward, it is not the label that others slap on it that I breed - it is first a good horse. At any point, if I find I cannot breed the pure Egyptian forward without adding faults to my herd, I will look outside the pure Egyptian bloodlines to continue to breed forward a good horse. The choices narrow with each passing generation as our leadership has been derelict in their guardianship efforts.

Kind Regards,Liz DieterJEVA Farms LLC

Caryn Rogosky

May 9 2012, 11:10 PM

QUOTE (Marilee @ May 9 2012, 10:51 PM)

Yes, and that is the other part of preservation, one can have the horses to preserve or attempt to preserve, but one needs the person with the knowledge and the passion to do so. And who is the next generation?

That's a tough one, and a concern that many of us share. There are some young breeders out there who are intelligent, knowledgeable and passionate about breeding both great Arabians and preserving what remains of those who trace to exclusive desertbred ancestors. But are there enough? I don't know. Preservation breeding has always been a particular challenge, given that one is working within a limited genepool, and as breeding has waned in general over the past years the loss of endangered source blood within the Asil population grows more and more possible. Nontheless, Al Khamsa is doing an excellent job at drawing more people into the fold, even during these tenuous times -- thanks to the outstanding, dedicated people who are at the helm.

Fairfax

May 9 2012, 11:36 PM

Preservation breeding has always been with us. It started when Europeans (Asians or anyone outside of Saudi) iimported Arabian Horses to their country. They bred them for the sole purpose of improving local horse flesh. They needed purebred Arabians who could breed TRUE to type. There was a criteria during those centuries as the horse was the vehicle.

Due to isolation, inbreeding and line breeding occured. Failures were simply shot and fed to the dogs. Weak horses met the same fate. Performance proved the value of the line.

In North America the same principles were applied. Due to high costs, purebreds were produced with consistency in mine. Whitmore Arabian Stud of Salt Lake City and their stallion Seneyn. They defied people to visit and be able to differentiate mares from each other....like peas in a pod. Al-Marah based their program around Raffles sons and daughters. Jimmy Wrench around Abu Raseyn, Tish Hewitt on Geym, Alice Payne on Raffles to the extreme.

They were BREEDERS who bred with a goal in mind to improve each generation while maintaining its genetic prepotency.

Very few understand that Alice Payne had made arrangements to import a Polish Stallion to use on her inbred daughters of Raffles..Celeste was by Raffles as was her mother as was her mothers mother.

The met at shows and competed against each other as sportsmen but it did not deter them from their goal of breeding. Denny Terrel did that with the Gulastra line through Binis. When they bred themselves into a corner, they sold those horses to other breeders who would cross them in a different manner.

There were a lot of domestic Arabians...hence importers (at great expense) brought to North America straight Polish, Spanish, Egyptian, etc and they were going to be bred within their gene pool so they could upgrade domestic bred Arabians and also give vigor.

Since AI, ET and travel are now only pennies on the dollar..anyone and everyone can breed to any horse...hence few actually TRAVEL to view the horse before purchasing semen. They check the show records. THAT is where they acquire their breeding information.

I have always been a preservation breeeder in Afghan Hounds, Arabian Horses and Saddlebreds. I choose the genetics and sometimes will use a not near perfect specimen in my program.

I am neither swayed by the show ring nor trainers as to what I should breed.

For those who don't think I have followed S E breeding ..here is a copy of a letter I discovered that I sent to Sha Ronb Arabian Farms around 1971.

Please excuse the typing spelling error (which is why I had this copy) but it states:

My impossible dream is also a pure Egyptrian filly--for many reasons. I first became interested in the Egyptian Arabian Horse after corresponding with several people in Egyhpt. One in particular was the Understate Secretary of Egypt and through him my enthusiasm for their type, style and general beauty really developed. I am really very happy to see more and more people becoming interested in their blood lines.

I was 21 years old then.

Preservation and beauty is in the eye of the beholder and the tolerance for physical faults, likewise.

The answer is also in culling...but that is also another thread.

Leo

HLM

May 10 2012, 12:12 AM

QUOTE (Fairfax @ May 10 2012, 12:36 AM)

Preservation breeding has always been with us. It started when Europeans (Asians or anyone outside of Saudi) iimported Arabian Horses to their country. They bred them for the sole purpose of improving local horse flesh. They needed purebred Arabians who could breed TRUE to type. There was a criteria during those centuries as the horse was the vehicle.

Due to isolation, inbreeding and line breeding occured. Failures were simply shot and fed to the dogs. Weak horses met the same fate. Performance proved the value of the line.

In North America the same principles were applied. Due to high costs, purebreds were produced with consistency in mine. Whitmore Arabian Stud of Salt Lake City and their stallion Seneyn. They defied people to visit and be able to differentiate mares from each other....like peas in a pod. Al-Marah based their program around Raffles sons and daughters. Jimmy Wrench around Abu Raseyn, Tish Hewitt on Geym, Alice Payne on Raffles to the extreme.

They were BREEDERS who bred with a goal in mind to improve each generation while maintaining its genetic prepotency.

Very few understand that Alice Payne had made arrangements to import a Polish Stallion to use on her inbred daughters of Raffles..Celeste was by Raffles as was her mother as was her mothers mother.

The met at shows and competed against each other as sportsmen but it did not deter them from their goal of breeding. Denny Terrel did that with the Gulastra line through Binis. When they bred themselves into a corner, they sold those horses to other breeders who would cross them in a different manner.

There were a lot of domestic Arabians...hence importers (at great expense) brought to North America straight Polish, Spanish, Egyptian, etc and they were going to be bred within their gene pool so they could upgrade domestic bred Arabians and also give vigor.

Since AI, ET and travel are now only pennies on the dollar..anyone and everyone can breed to any horse...hence few actually TRAVEL to view the horse before purchasing semen. They check the show records. THAT is where they acquire their breeding information.

I have always been a preservation breeeder in Afghan Hounds, Arabian Horses and Saddlebreds. I choose the genetics and sometimes will use a not near perfect specimen in my program.

I am neither swayed by the show ring nor trainers as to what I should breed.

For those who don't think I have followed S E breeding ..here is a copy of a letter I discovered that I sent to Sha Ronb Arabian Farms around 1971.

Please excuse the typing spelling error (which is why I had this copy) but it states:

My impossible dream is also a pure Egyptrian filly--for many reasons. I first became interested in the Egyptian Arabian Horse after corresponding with several people in Egyhpt. One in particular was the Understate Secretary of Egypt and through him my enthusiasm for their type, style and general beauty really developed. I am really very happy to see more and more people becoming interested in their blood lines.

I was 21 years old then.

Preservation and beauty is in the eye of the beholder and the tolerance for physical faults, likewise.

The answer is also in culling...but that is also another thread.

Leo

What you state Leo is correct. I always respected the breeders of any breed for their accomplishments, non Asils or Ses.. Those are the very Arabians we compete against, which is often not that easy. I myself bred hundreds of None SES, ,many shown became champions, and one can look at Khofo's record, when out of c.254 foals only about 67 werre Ses.As a rider, and that since young childhood, I will always be looking for a good horse and recognize such when I see it.Never mattered to me if owned by a friend or foe.

It is not easy for anybody to always produce a top horse, and the work it takes everyone of us has.So the heartaches and the joys. I truly is not for the faint hearted.

My objection has always been against flooding a market with low quality individuals, but making them valuable in the eyes of a newcomer or ignorant is worse. Eduction offered and given by many of us old timers has helped some and hopefully this will continue. While I have my own standards, I respect those of my collegues.

My idea of preservation is to preserve an Asil Arabian horse of high quality, which incase of need would save our lives.We know that there can only be ONE winner in a class or race (unless its nose on nose) and it does not mean that the others are bad. I could be a lucky day for some and an unlucky one for other. And in the showring we are at the mercy of the judges, which in some cases pinned the wrong winner in my opinion.

However, we all can work together, and with it be happy.

Hansi

.

Helgrit Hepner

May 10 2012, 02:42 PM

First and foremost we should always preserve the good individual. Pedigree is very important, of course. However, I don't think we should perpetuate horses that are not good , to the exclusion of everything except that they may have, many generations back, a so called rare ancestor.

HelgritSARACEN FARMS

alythlong

May 11 2012, 05:36 AM

QUOTE (Helgrit Hepner @ May 10 2012, 04:42 PM)

First and foremost we should always preserve the good individual. Pedigree is very important, of course. However, I don't think we should perpetuate horses that are not good , to the exclusion of everything except that they may have, many generations back, a so called rare ancestor.

HelgritSARACEN FARMS

A great subject of conversation!! I think we are all agreeing with Helgrits thoughts. I have always thought that there are good, bad and indifferent in every group, and that includes each category of Arabians. So the first thing to preserve is the best in each group and diminish the group of "bad". And imo as Hansi says (as well as others who agree!) the best way is to prove by testing. With my own horses I would not breed from them until they had proved themselves to be tractable riding ponies.....good temperament, sound in mind and body!! This should be the norm, especially in todays economic climate where horses of all breeds are being abandoned and/or neglected and there are fewer and fewer people becoming interested......By the way Helgrit - Saracen Karim was one of my pin up boys!!Alyth

MARSHALL NZ

May 11 2012, 11:26 AM

QUOTE (alythlong @ May 11 2012, 05:36 PM)

A great subject of conversation!! I think we are all agreeing with Helgrits thoughts. I have always thought that there are good, bad and indifferent in every group, and that includes each category of Arabians. So the first thing to preserve is the best in each group and diminish the group of "bad". And imo as Hansi says (as well as others who agree!) the best way is to prove by testing. With my own horses I would not breed from them until they had proved themselves to be tractable riding ponies.....good temperament, sound in mind and body!! This should be the norm, especially in todays economic climate where horses of all breeds are being abandoned and/or neglected and there are fewer and fewer people becoming interested......By the way Helgrit - Saracen Karim was one of my pin up boys!!Alyth

I have to reply as I grew up with Saracen Karim... how fortunate am I.... read The Black Stallion Series... rode what many described as the White Ghost (Saracen Karim) who most certainly represented what should be preserved... very tractable, athletic quality/ability and screaming "Arabian" every breath he took... very proud but oh so humble in the presence of inocense... no fool or foolish... for ever my dream come true... a picture of an Arabian is beautiful but realising the beautiy of the Arabian in reality is life changing.

Helgrit Hepner

May 12 2012, 03:00 PM

I have to give you and your father a lot of credit for the success of Karim. Your father purchased him sight unseen from 2 very marginal photos as a weanling.He was counting on his great pedigree and he was proven correct. I think good genes plus a great environment make for a succesful horse. Ruminaja Ghalima, his dam, certainly had all those traits, beauty, tractability and Arabian type, without which we can fold our tents and go home.

HelgritSaracen Farms

HLM

May 12 2012, 04:11 PM

QUOTE (Helgrit Hepner @ May 12 2012, 05:00 PM)

I have to give you and your father a lot of credit for the success of Karim. Your father purchased him sight unseen from 2 very marginal photos as a weanling.He was counting on his great pedigree and he was proven correct. I think good genes plus a great environment make for a succesful horse. Ruminaja Ghalima, his dam, certainly had all those traits, beauty, tractability and Arabian type, without which we can fold our tents and go home.

HelgritSaracen Farms

Hi Helgrit

I saw Ruminaja ghalima at the Jamisons when she was about a yearling, very nice filly which turned into an excellent broodmare. I can only see her prodicing one MARE AND 7 sons., all but one by shaikh Al Badi. I saw some of the sons breeding on in my database. Jamessons always had good horses and bred good ones.

Take carehansi

Robert 1

Aug 9 2012, 02:06 PM

Hi Hansi,This is a great topic, what needs to be preserved?I am not against Non- Straights, there are many great Non-Straight Arabian horses. After having, I would guess, about forty horses over my lifetime. I support the idea of a good horse is a good horse. Heck, one of my best horses I ever had was from a Hollywood movie set in California, his name was Alamo, this horse taught me to ride way back in the sixties, we would ride for hours in the mountains of Pennsylvania, several days a week for years and he wasn't even an Arabian but, he was a gelding.IMO this is what I see as the problem with the Arabian breed as a whole whether it is SE, SO, ASIL, AK or Non-Straight, far too many Arabians are thought and left to be a stallion and then used for breeding when they have no business being a stallion in the first place.Someone once stated that there is one Arabian Stallion for every two breedable Arabian mares, I find this hard to imagine.A breeding stallion is specifically bred for the purpose of breeding.Many of these Arabians that are left as a stallion need to have been gelded and used for riding, getting the youths involved and more adults in the saddle to demonstrate what great horses the Arabian is and how versatile they truly are for everyone to enjoy and to serve more of a purpose than to simply be locked in the back of the barn squelling his head off.Even a great stallion who produces a good number of foals in his lifetime, in most cases only sires a handful of colts that are as good or better than himself, that could be used for breeding. To make matters worse sometimes these colts are used on fantastic mares to try and prove themselves and a great producing mare winds up foaling a lesser foal than she is capable of having, thus lessoning her name as a great producing mare.More Geldings equals, more riding.

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ZITAT(HLM @ May 9 2012, 08:47 PM)

Hi all

We already had some discussion under another topic and ran away with it.

I was just wondering what all your opinion is about "preservation" and/or what it means to you. What do you feel sbould be preserved? Will manmade labels influence you, and if so, to what degree? Will the definition Blue Star or Blue List be detrimental to your breeding decisions? Please answer in fairness, respecting each opinion issued.