Sex is the sugar coating on the drive to reproduce, and that drive is nearly overwhelming. It’s supposed to be; it’s the survival engine of the human race. Fighting it means fighting a basic bodily instinct, akin to fighting thirst.

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Humans are designed to reproduce in their teens, and they’re potentially very good at it. That’s why they want to so much.

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That’s not the case in America today. Instead we have an *artificial* situation which causes marriage to be delayed. The age that a man, or woman, can earn a reasonable income has been steadily increasing as education has been dumbed down. The condition of basic employability that used to be demonstrated by a high school diploma now requires a Bachelor’s degree, and professional careers that used to be accessible with a Bachelor’s now require a Master’s degree or more. Years keep passing while kids keep trying to attain the credentials that adult earning requires.

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We cultivate the idea of idyllic, carefree childhood, and as the years for education have stretched so have the bounds of that playground, so that we expect even "kids" in their mid-to-late twenties to avoid settling down.

No offense, but most of the 1st worlders who can't imagine raising and supporting a family without attaining a college education, "maturing" or making at least $60k a year are full of donkey crap. And if you don't believe me, then just drive through any Mexican-American neighborhood and 90% of the teenagers there will either be pregnant or already have kids because the Pope won't let them use contraceptives and because their mothers won't let them get abortions. The Mexican-American has mastered a way to raise six children as teenagers off of a $20k a year salary. Anyone who can't just isn't very creative, innovating and thrifty enough. If there's ONE good thing I learned from my parents, it's how to be cheap, economically creative and a wise spender.

No offense, but most of the 1st worlders who can't imagine raising and supporting a family without attaining a college education, "maturing" or making at least $60k a year are full of donkey crap. And if you don't believe me, then just drive through any Mexican-American neighborhood and 90% of the teenagers there will either be pregnant or already have kids because the Pope won't let them use contraceptives and because their mothers won't let them get abortions. The Mexican-American has mastered a way to raise six children as teenagers off of a $20k a year salary. Anyone who can't just isn't very creative, innovating and thrifty enough. If there's ONE good thing I learned from my parents, it's how to be cheap, economically creative and a wise spender.

I forget exactly how much older Frederica is than we are (my guess is about six years on me) but I notice that even she waited until she got out of college to get married. In my family the average generation is running over thirty years: my grandfather was born nearly a century before my eldest son. And I suspect it has always been that way in the educated classes, because if they didn't do that, they didn't get any education. I have read that in the middle ages long delays before marriage were typical because of the need to amass enough wealth to found a household (say, by buying some land). Frederica is in love with being a social iconoclast, which is why young, unmarried men shouldn't be taking her advice.

but most of the 1st worlders who can't imagine raising and supporting a family without attaining a college education, "maturing" or making at least $60k a year are full of donkey crap

Depends on where you live, but generally, I agree.

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And if you don't believe me, then just drive through any Mexican-American neighborhood and 90% of the teenagers there will either be pregnant or already have kids because the Pope won't let them use contraceptives and because their mothers won't let them get abortions

So its the Pope's and the mother's collective fault because the girls want to have sex and not deal with the repercussions of their actions? Hmmmm, seems legit

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"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

No offense, but most of the 1st worlders who can't imagine raising and supporting a family without attaining a college education, "maturing" or making at least $60k a year are full of donkey crap. And if you don't believe me, then just drive through any Mexican-American neighborhood and 90% of the teenagers there will either be pregnant or already have kids because the Pope won't let them use contraceptives and because their mothers won't let them get abortions. The Mexican-American has mastered a way to raise six children as teenagers off of a $20k a year salary. Anyone who can't just isn't very creative, innovating and thrifty enough. If there's ONE good thing I learned from my parents, it's how to be cheap, economically creative and a wise spender.

I agree with you. Born and raised in a third world country, I've seen people raise families on meager incomes. Problem in North America is consumerism. Daddy needs to be able to buy a new iPhone every year while paying for that elite Daycare which promises to make your kid into Mozart or Einstein. And you drive them to and from said daycare in an Audi A8.

It's funny because I was watching a news segment once on people going homeless because they can't afford that $1200 downtown apartment, or they stayed on said apartment for too long without a job that can afford it. While personally I know people who lived on $400 rent on someone's dinky basement. Some people just don't want to sacrifice according to their means.

Looking to myself I think teen pregnancy would be a horrible idea. How would I pay for it? How would I raise them? How would I deal with a wife 24/7? I'm not nearly adult enough for all that.

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Sex is the sugar coating on the drive to reproduce, and that drive is nearly overwhelming. It’s supposed to be; it’s the survival engine of the human race. Fighting it means fighting a basic bodily instinct, akin to fighting thirst.

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Humans are designed to reproduce in their teens, and they’re potentially very good at it. That’s why they want to so much.

LOL. She should speak for herself.

« Last Edit: January 24, 2013, 02:35:15 PM by Cyrillic »

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"Who wants to be consistent? The dullard and the doctrinaire, the tedious people who carry out their principles to the bitter end of action, to the reductio ad absurdum of practice. Not I."-Oscar Wilde, The Decay of Lying

No offense, but most of the 1st worlders who can't imagine raising and supporting a family without attaining a college education, "maturing" or making at least $60k a year are full of donkey crap. And if you don't believe me, then just drive through any Mexican-American neighborhood and 90% of the teenagers there will either be pregnant or already have kids because the Pope won't let them use contraceptives and because their mothers won't let them get abortions. The Mexican-American has mastered a way to raise six children as teenagers off of a $20k a year salary. Anyone who can't just isn't very creative, innovating and thrifty enough. If there's ONE good thing I learned from my parents, it's how to be cheap, economically creative and a wise spender.

I agree with you. Born and raised in a third world country, I've seen people raise families on meager incomes. Problem in North America is consumerism. Daddy needs to be able to buy a new iPhone every year while paying for that elite Daycare which promises to make your kid into Mozart or Einstein. And you drive them to and from said daycare in an Audi A8.

It's funny because I was watching a news segment once on people going homeless because they can't afford that $1200 downtown apartment, or they stayed on said apartment for too long without a job that can afford it. While personally I know people who lived on $400 rent on someone's dinky basement. Some people just don't want to sacrifice according to their means.

The problem in America is bigger than consumerism, I hope you'd have realized that. like the exorbitant rents or house prices. I work and live in the city. In a dinky basement. On my income i could not have kids and keep this job. But it's very likely I can get a job anytime soon. However I also know how not to raise the teen-pregnancy level to new heights. It's really simple. Unless, with the pope,one believes the cosmos itself is affected by a piece of rubber intervening in between the sex organs of the twain.

Looking to myself I think teen pregnancy would be a horrible idea. How would I pay for it? How would I raise them? How would I deal with a wife 24/7? I'm not nearly adult enough for all that.

But that's exactly the problem she's pointing out, our society delays maturity, prolongues adolescence, so that our lifestyles at given ages are out of synch with our physical maturity. This causes people to ask "why did God make me feel this way if I have to wait until I'm 30 to get married and act on my desires". The problem isn't the design, it's that our society has different priorities.

My parents' generation could live good lives with high school educations. They could finish at 18, and go out and live, and have families. Many did. Many of my professors recounted doing very hard bachelors degrees, having to do a thesis just to get a bachelors. It actually meant something, it had worth because it wasn't so easy anyone could do it. Some people, like those profs still went on to do grad school... but there was much less need. You didn't have to to have a good life.

Today, high school is dumbed down with the "leave no child behind" mentality. It has to lower the bar so that everyone can pass. Education becomes lowest common denominator. The result? A high school degree is worthless. You can't have a life with just that, you have to go do university or collage, so the minimum standard for maturity is delayed another 4 years over previous generations, and not because we're more educated, but because we've lowered standards, devalued education so that more is needed. Then, because you have to have a university education to do anything now a days, those who in pervious generations would have wanted to do a university degree because it suited them, today have to go on and do graduate school because their undergraduate degrees were so watered down so that all the people who need to do them to do jobs that previously could have been done with a high school diploma can still get through.

It's not that we should give up on education and all be ignorant so we can have children young. It's that if we made education challenging again and accepted that not everyone is cut out to have the same amount of education, stopped watering it down so we don't hurt people's feelings, then we could be as educated as we are today years younger, and there would be much less frustration from having to put off our natural and healthy desires until far too late in live.

And we are putting it off too late. 1/3 of couples now have fertility issues because we expect to have children at 35, because that's when it fits in with our society's expectation for establishing careers for a few years after excessive school (to learn very little, just to get the degrees to get jobs), before having kids.

We complain that we have desire too young, we ask, "why did God make me feel this way when I can't act on it", and then we ask, "why God, now that it's finally time for me to have a baby, am I having so much trouble?" We blame God because His design for our lives doesn't match with the society we've constructed, instead of asking why we've constructed a society that is so out of step with how we are clearly designed.

I'm not saying we should get married at 14. But if you look at the number of people who successfully wait until marriage at 18 or 22 or whenever, compared to the number of people who successfully wait until marriage at 32 or 35... There's a limit on how long people can delay our healthy and normal desires. We don't respect that in our society. It can be solved by decreasing consumerism, accepting giving up all the toys we love to be able to have kids younger, and by raising the bar on education, so that it doesn't take until 30 to be grown up, and ready to enter the world as an adult.

it's actually a nice article.i got married before finishing college (university in british english), and we were very poor (less than half of one poor man's salary between us) and the (protestant) church we were in arranged the free wedding with free food for us.guests also brought food and we had over 100 people present! all we had to buy were one second hand suit and the material for one 'made by kind friend' wedding dress. we also had to pay a small amount to the registrar as the church was not fully licensed for weddings.we partied with food and music for several hours and then went off on a free honeymoon paid for by a small group of very close friends.ok, it was 4 days close by in mid-winter (we had the exotic holiday 15 years later), but it's really true that our love kept us warm!

I agree that nature is often a good teacher, but we have to be careful because the natural order has still been partially corrupted by the fall. But it does seem that God designed our bodies to reproduce much earlier than our society deems appropriate. Personally, I think one of the failures of the Church is that we allow society to too often dictate the standards. I think we should have Orthodox schools that are free for all Orthodox children who can't afford it. I think we should cummunally culitivate Christian courtships and encourage early marriages for those whom the Church views may be ready for it. However, it is also good to teach our young people the value and importance of struggling against our fleshly desires. Even natural, healthy desires need to be supressed and disciplined from time to time. So, as I see it, we either need to cultivate true Christian communities that will make it possible and beneficial for people to marry at an early age, or else we need to do a better job of equipping our young people with the spiritual tools they need to resist temptations and keep these desire in submission. None of this is easy, and I don't pretend that it is. Just my thoughts.

Selam

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"There are two great tragedies: one is to live a life ruled by the passions, and the other is to live a passionless life."Selam, +GMK+

So its the Pope's and the mother's collective fault because the girls want to have sex and not deal with the repercussions of their actions? Hmmmm, seems legit

Using contraceptives IS a way of dealing with the repercussions of your actions because you are taking preventative measures. The Pope has caused a lot more harm by condemning contraceptives than he has good--just look at the transmission of HIV/AIDS in Africa because of him.

So its the Pope's and the mother's collective fault because the girls want to have sex and not deal with the repercussions of their actions? Hmmmm, seems legit

Using contraceptives IS a way of dealing with the repercussions of your actions because you are taking preventative measures. The Pope has caused a lot more harm by condemning contraceptives than he has good--just look at the transmission of HIV/AIDS in Africa because of him.

The Roman Catholic Church's position against artificial and abortifacient contraception is primarily meant for married, monogamous couples. If people are having sex with multiple partners, the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches have been against that since before condoms were invented--allegedly by the physician of English King Charles II.

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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

So its the Pope's and the mother's collective fault because the girls want to have sex and not deal with the repercussions of their actions? Hmmmm, seems legit

Using contraceptives IS a way of dealing with the repercussions of your actions because you are taking preventative measures. The Pope has caused a lot more harm by condemning contraceptives than he has good--just look at the transmission of HIV/AIDS in Africa because of him.

Nice, blame the Pope for people not keeping their own pants zipped. Good one.

The Roman Catholic Church's position against artificial and abortifacient contraception is primarily meant for married, monogamous couples.

Both Catholic and Orthodox churches teach that those are the only people who should be having sex to begin with.

That's hopelessly idealistic though. People know better any ways.

So the Church teaching should be changed to "These are the rules, but if you're going to break the rules, follow these rules for breaking the rules" or "sin is no longer a sin because it has become a cultural norm"?

Those who want laws restricting people's right to own guns somehow don't want to restrict the proliferation of condoms, abortifacients, and abortion clinics. People are going to kill people anyway, so why not equip people with guns that will make killing more efficient and less painful? I mean, it's hopelessly naive to think that we can stop people from killing each other.

(And for the record, I am not a supporter of "gun rights." I just laugh at the hypocrisy of those who want no restrictions on pornography, prostitution, and abortion but want to restrict guns.)

Selam

« Last Edit: January 26, 2013, 11:01:11 PM by Gebre Menfes Kidus »

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"There are two great tragedies: one is to live a life ruled by the passions, and the other is to live a passionless life."Selam, +GMK+

No offense, but most of the 1st worlders who can't imagine raising and supporting a family without attaining a college education, "maturing" or making at least $60k a year are full of donkey crap. And if you don't believe me, then just drive through any Mexican-American neighborhood and 90% of the teenagers there will either be pregnant or already have kids because the Pope won't let them use contraceptives and because their mothers won't let them get abortions. The Mexican-American has mastered a way to raise six children as teenagers off of a $20k a year salary. Anyone who can't just isn't very creative, innovating and thrifty enough. If there's ONE good thing I learned from my parents, it's how to be cheap, economically creative and a wise spender.

My wife was pregnant at 18 with our 1st daughter (we were married too).

Today we are raising our 5 children. Our home is paid off, our cars are paid off, our land is paid off. We have no debt. I never made close to 60k a year because I wanted to live in the country.

I'm not trying to boast. I'm just saying that you are absolutely correct. Being frugal, learning how to repair & build stuff, helping to provide yourself with food (chickens/eggs goats/milk), wife sewing, children content, wife & husband content, and you "use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without", it is possible.

Examples: My sons and I just built a heat exchanger for our fireplace made out of free exhaust pipe and a fan. Works better than 10 space heaters. Wood is free from the land, we pay nothing to heat. Solar water heaters, solar oven, etc. All home made foods, breads, buns etc. We build barns from scraps. Our animals eat only food god provides, grass, bugs, plants etc. We use CB radios instead of cell phones, and the cell we have is prepaid at $20 for 3 months. Magicjack is $20 a year. Internet is through long range wifi for free.

So many ways to be thrifty, still live quality, and not have to fuss so much.....

Of course I say this, and I'm typing on a "frankenstein" laptop that i had to piece together..... Why, because I didn't want to spend savings for a new one - and obviously, its here typing right now.

So yea, THINK - but there is nothing wrong with being a married teen having babies.

Those who want laws restricting people's right to own guns somehow don't want to restrict the proliferation of condoms, abortifacients, and abortion clinics. People are going to kill people anyway, so why not equip people with guns that will make killing more efficient and less painful? I mean, it's hopelessly naive to think that we can stop people from killing each other.

I've noticed that Roman Catholics tend to be the most different on this. The Vatican, for example, recently came out in support of our gun control talks, and of course are against contraception and abortion.

Those who want laws restricting people's right to own guns somehow don't want to restrict the proliferation of condoms, abortifacients, and abortion clinics. People are going to kill people anyway, so why not equip people with guns that will make killing more efficient and less painful? I mean, it's hopelessly naive to think that we can stop people from killing each other.

(And for the record, I am not a supporter of "gun rights." I just laugh at the hypocrisy of those who want no restrictions on pornography, prostitution, and abortion but want to restrict guns.)

Selam

Did you have pickled red herring for breakfast?

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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.