As you can see, his numbers have been improving, and that is considering Bosh is still making his 20/10 each night. What more if you take away that 20/10 of Bosh and give his touches to Bargs?

Bargnani's numbers have mostly increased because of an increase in minutes. His per minute numbers have barely gone up, especially between 2009 and 2010. In fact they were nearly identical. And Bosh would have most likely increased his scoring and rebounding regardless if Vince left.

In Bosh's 4th season, his per 36 mpg numbers were 21.1 ppg on 14.8 shots per game.
In Bargnani's 4th season, his per 36 mpg numbers were 17.7 ppg on 14.7 shots per game.

In their fourth seasons, both player were taking virtually the same number of shots per minute. Bosh played 3 more minutes per game than Bargnani.

The problem with saying that Bargnani would get Bosh's touches is that Bargnani simply can't create a shot like Bosh can. Simply giving him the ball more doesn't mean he's going to score more. It may mean he takes more contested shots and shoots with even less efficiency than he does now. When Bosh was out this past season, Bargnani's shot attempts actually went down, in part because Bosh was not there attracting the defense, and in part because the teams best big defender could focus on Bargnani. Bargnani needs better scorers around him to create scoring opportunities for him.

mo-sales wrote:

Question, hypothetically this trade goes down, Bosh leaves for sure and now the raps have no big men. I'm very sold on Rubio and the small list of point guards i'd rather have him over would upset a lot of people, but I don't know how I feel about jettisoning both our twin towers, no matter how faulty they may be.

Also, can BC use his Euro clout and Cheneyesque right hand man Maurizio to get Rubio over here next year? That would be the big selling point because for those of you who unaware of Rubio's once in a generation skill set, he is a direct descendant of the European James Naismith who invented and then perfected the alley oop. The dizzying array of oops to Derozan, Weems and Johnson would be worth the price of admission no matter the final score.

I don't know if Bosh leaves for sure, but he very well could. In that case, the Raptors try to re-sign Johnson and either draft another big man or sign one. The point, though, is not how the Raptors are going to do next season. If this trade goes through, Bosh leaves and Rubio doesn't come until 2011, the Raptors are going to be a pretty poor team, but if Bosh leaves, they're going to be pretty bad, anyway. It's just a matter of degrees. Worst case scenario if this trade happens, Bosh leaves and the team wins 18 games next season and get a high draft pick in the 2011 draft. Between Rubio, DeROzan, Weems, hopefully Johnson, whoever the Raptors get in exchange for Bosh and TUrkoglu, the 13th pick this year and the top 4 pick next season, the team has a much brighter future than it has right now. In 2011, the Raptors basically get two top 5 picks (Rubio and their own). All for suffering through one bad season watching the current young players develop.

rap of the day. i totally agree with this, most raptors fans do too. this year we will have a real TEAM , not a prima dona in overrated bosh

If most Raptors fans truly wish for Bosh to depart, then this year, Raptors fans might actually get to re-experience their first several expansion years.

That's all depending on what we get back for Bosh, Turkoglu, et cetera, et cetera, of course. Provided we get some young, exciting talent to watch grow, while tanking in the appropriate year a la the Cavs and the Magic, and not so much the Clippers or the Hawks, a 27-55 season could be enjoyable.

If most Raptors fans truly wish for Bosh to depart, then this year, Raptors fans might actually get to re-experience their first several expansion years.

That's all depending on what we get back for Bosh, Turkoglu, et cetera, et cetera, of course. Provided we get some young, exciting talent to watch grow, while tanking in the appropriate year a la the Cavs and the Magic, and not so much the Clippers or the Hawks, a 27-55 season could be enjoyable.

itz gonna be an awesome season IF bosh leaves. all he cares about is money and personal fame, we gotta move past that kind of selfish attitude and foster a team oriented mentality. the young guns, bargs, even our two main pgs right now all get it. smooth passing, always lookin for the extra pass, and supporting their teammates. if BC wanted bosh then why have they ripped all his promo posters down in the acc. as jack would say, get that gaaaaaabage outta here. ps, leave minnesota's trash in minnesota.

itz gonna be an awesome season IF bosh leaves. all he cares about is money and personal fame, we gotta move past that kind of selfish attitude and foster a team oriented mentality. the young guns, bargs, even our two main pgs right now all get it. smooth passing, always lookin for the extra pass, and supporting their teammates. if BC wanted bosh then why have they ripped all his promo posters down in the acc. as jack would say, get that gaaaaaabage outta here. ps, leave minnesota's trash in minnesota.

I agree it will be awesome if you mean X years closer to drafting the next LBJ.

All he cares about is money? I don't see how you mean. If Bargnani gets it, why didn't sign a cheaper extension? It's still arguable whether the next few years will be a bargain; how long 'til his salary cap crippling contract dubs him selfish as well? If he was anywhere near the player Bosh was, he'd be asking for the same and you know it. This is a business, and your salary reflects your status. If you want people to perceive you as a superstar, you better be serious as one. It's easy to criticize other people for how much they make, but if it was anyone of us in their shoes, we'd do the exact same. How would you feel if your employer came up to you and said, "hey we know you're one of the best in the industry, so let's start you off with a pay decrease"? You'd do the same thing Joe Torre did to the Yankees IF you had a choice, and most of us don't.

Always looking for the extra pass? Point guards are supposed to facilitate for the team. Your star is supposed to score for the team. I honestly don't see how our team's best scorer bar none was being selfish. 9th highest points/40 minutes in the league. One of the highest in points per FGA. Constantly trying to draw a foul, rather than shy away from contact. Yes, he was no LBJ or Wade with the ball, but that wasn't his skillset.

Take Bargnani, for example. I hear plenty about him being a black hole on offense, yet the other half complains he's too afraid to take shots, often passing the ball to a more inferior offensive option. So I guess if Bosh takes those shots, he's selfish, and if he passes them up, he can't be the man.

"if BC wanted bosh then why have they ripped all his promo posters down in the acc."

One is not synonymous with the other. BC could want Bosh, but could also know the chance of Bosh staying is slim. It may not even matter and might just be standard operating procedure. You're reading too much into it and reaching for ways to back your argument.

I agree it will be awesome if you mean X years closer to drafting the next LBJ.

All he cares about is money? I don't see how you mean. If Bargnani gets it, why didn't sign a cheaper extension? It's still arguable whether the next few years will be a bargain; how long 'til his salary cap crippling contract dubs him selfish as well? If he was anywhere near the player Bosh was, he'd be asking for the same and you know it. This is a business, and your salary reflects your status. If you want people to perceive you as a superstar, you better be serious as one. It's easy to criticize other people for how much they make, but if it was anyone of us in their shoes, we'd do the exact same. How would you feel if your employer came up to you and said, "hey we know you're one of the best in the industry, so let's start you off with a pay decrease"? You'd do the same thing Joe Torre did to the Yankees IF you had a choice, and most of us don't.

Always looking for the extra pass? Point guards are supposed to facilitate for the team. Your star is supposed to score for the team. I honestly don't see how our team's best scorer bar none was being selfish. 9th highest points/40 minutes in the league. One of the highest in points per FGA. Constantly trying to draw a foul, rather than shy away from contact. Yes, he was no LBJ or Wade with the ball, but that wasn't his skillset.

Take Bargnani, for example. I hear plenty about him being a black hole on offense, yet the other half complains he's too afraid to take shots, often passing the ball to a more inferior offensive option. So I guess if Bosh takes those shots, he's selfish, and if he passes them up, he can't be the man.

"if BC wanted bosh then why have they ripped all his promo posters down in the acc."

One is not synonymous with the other. BC could want Bosh, but could also know the chance of Bosh staying is slim. It may not even matter and might just be standard operating procedure. You're reading too much into it and reaching for ways to back your argument.

Come on dude, now you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. Furthermore, all of your points are totally wrong. Bosh cares about money and fame and endorsements. Of course he can get the money here in Tdot. He hasn't earned the fame but some fool of a GM somewhere will pamper his ego with the big bucks in a major US city.

Also, your notion that Bosh constantly tries to draw contact is absolutely ridiculous. Do you even watch the Raptors? Dude falls back on his jumper 9 times out of ten. And he DOES NOT pass, he is terrible in assists.

Bargs is a much better passer, and fed CB on the block and down low as much as possible. Too bad CB never returned the favour.

Come on dude, now you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. Furthermore, all of your points are totally wrong. Bosh cares about money and fame and endorsements. Of course he can get the money here in Tdot. He hasn't earned the fame but some fool of a GM somewhere will pamper his ego with the big bucks in a major US city.

Also, your notion that Bosh constantly tries to draw contact is absolutely ridiculous. Do you even watch the Raptors? Dude falls back on his jumper 9 times out of ten. And he DOES NOT pass, he is terrible in assists.

Bargs is a much better passer, and fed CB on the block and down low as much as possible. Too bad CB never returned the favour.

If BC trades Bargs for Rubio, Bosh is splitsville, but i'm over his hostage crisis anyways. The guy should be begging us to resign him or S&T not the other way around. The guy is worth 20 million like Ron's new album is going platinum.

If the trade went down, raps likely hit the tank for the season, but if they could land Harrison Barnes next year it would be all worth it. It would also kickstart a firesale. Get Indy's pick for Jose, maybe Clippers pick for Turk and hopefully stock pile another pick or two from the Bosh S&T. I think people underestimate how quickly a team can rebuild if it has the right captain steering the ship.

Triano looked great with the young guns this past year, plus I support shedding all big contracts until the CBA is resolved and then using the freed up cap space to sign player's to deals they can be held accountable for.

Tank next year with the youth movement, get lucky in the draft and they could be ready to take off just as Rubio's plane lands.

Come on dude, now you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. Furthermore, all of your points are totally wrong. Bosh cares about money and fame and endorsements. Of course he can get the money here in Tdot. He hasn't earned the fame but some fool of a GM somewhere will pamper his ego with the big bucks in a major US city.

Also, your notion that Bosh constantly tries to draw contact is absolutely ridiculous. Do you even watch the Raptors? Dude falls back on his jumper 9 times out of ten. And he DOES NOT pass, he is terrible in assists.

Bargs is a much better passer, and fed CB on the block and down low as much as possible. Too bad CB never returned the favour.

All hail the 2010-2011 Bargs All Star Raptor Team!

Your comment that "Bosh cares about money and fame and endorsements" is an opinion and that's all. If you want people to take your argument seriously, I suggest you refrain from stating your opinions as if they are fact. I've never brought up anything other than what I see on the court in a discussion about Bargnani because I realize it would be foolish to do otherwise. I have no idea whatsoever what motivates either Bosh or Bargnani and neither do you. It's pure conjecture and it's annoying when people bring it up in a discussion. You might as well have an argument about what you think his favourite colour is. It does appear that Bosh enjoys money and fame, but so did Michael Jordan. That didn't stop him from caring about winning, too.

As Bosh's game, the fact that he was 7th in the league in free throw attempts per game shows that your statement about him not drawing contact is incorrect. Probably not best to bring it up in a discussion about Bosh and Bargnani since Bosh is far, far superior at drawing contact than Bargnani is. For every 100 shots Bosh takes, he gets to the line 51 times. A very good rate. Bargnani, on the other hand, only gets to the line 20 times for every 100 shots he takes. That's poor for a scorer and awful for a big man.

And I'm also not sure why you brought up passing, since neither Bosh nor Bargnani are very good at it. Bargnani's 1.2 apg is certainly nothing to brag about.

Your comment that "Bosh cares about money and fame and endorsements" is an opinion and that's all. If you want people to take your argument seriously, I suggest you refrain from stating your opinions as if they are fact. I've never brought up anything other than what I see on the court in a discussion about Bargnani because I realize it would be foolish to do otherwise. I have no idea whatsoever what motivates either Bosh or Bargnani and neither do you. It's pure conjecture and it's annoying when people bring it up in a discussion. You might as well have an argument about what you think his favourite colour is. It does appear that Bosh enjoys money and fame, but so did Michael Jordan. That didn't stop him from caring about winning, too.

As Bosh's game, the fact that he was 7th in the league in free throw attempts per game shows that your statement about him not drawing contact is incorrect. Probably not best to bring it up in a discussion about Bosh and Bargnani since Bosh is far, far superior at drawing contact than Bargnani is. For every 100 shots Bosh takes, he gets to the line 51 times. A very good rate. Bargnani, on the other hand, only gets to the line 20 times for every 100 shots he takes. That's poor for a scorer and awful for a big man.

And I'm also not sure why you brought up passing, since neither Bosh nor Bargnani are very good at it. Bargnani's 1.2 apg is certainly nothing to brag about.

Tim/Brasky- we all know Bargs is better. You guys are just sad cuz CB is selling out the team and the city. It's ok, you will forget about it once the exciting new season starts. You know that Bargs' passing is laser sharp, and that Bosh RARELY makes the pass. When we have had success is when he did trust his teammates and pass.

Did you read that fool's comments on ESPN today? Talking about how he likes Toronto because they always put the ball in his hands and expect him to lift the team? Bwhwhhhaaa, right. So, where has his "leadership" got us. All it has done is stagnate the growth of his teammates and the franchise. Adios muchacho, don't worry I'm sure Tim W and Brasky will follow you on the Miami Heat blog and spare us their incessant whining!

Tim/Brasky- we all know Bargs is better. You guys are just sad cuz CB is selling out the team and the city. It's ok, you will forget about it once the exciting new season starts. You know that Bargs' passing is laser sharp, and that Bosh RARELY makes the pass. When we have had success is when he did trust his teammates and pass.

Did you read that fool's comments on ESPN today? Talking about how he likes Toronto because they always put the ball in his hands and expect him to lift the team? Bwhwhhhaaa, right. So, where has his "leadership" got us. All it has done is stagnate the growth of his teammates and the franchise. Adios muchacho, don't worry I'm sure Tim W and Brasky will follow you on the Miami Heat blog and spare us their incessant whining!

Why is it that whenever you lose an argument, you just start telling other people what they think instead of trying to debate the facts? Oh, I guess it's because you've lost your argument.

i am not going to read this entire long-assed thread but, firstly, why do you all keep feeding these fool ass trolls like multipaul? i can't imagine anything he's posting is serious, so stop taking it seriously.

anyhow, to the matter at hand, i'd do all three of those trades in a millisecond. problem is i think minny prefers to trade jefferson, whom i wouldn't give up bargs for.

i really love rubio, and put him on par with the likes rose, rondo, or wall in terms of being franchise point guards to build around for 10+ years. my only reservation about him (that i don't think has been brought up yet) is that i've read he's not likely to come to the nba until 2012, not 2011, on account of him having a player option for one more year with his current team and the possibility of a lockout in 2011.

and if he does come in 2012 he's not bound to a rookie scale contract, so we'd hold his rights but he'd command free agent money. say 10 million a year. personally i think he's worth it (hell what are we paying jose? like 9.8 or something?) but it's still a pretty big risk to take on a player who's never played an nba game.

Also, your notion that Bosh constantly tries to draw contact is absolutely ridiculous. Do you even watch the Raptors? Dude falls back on his jumper 9 times out of ten. And he DOES NOT pass, he is terrible in assists.

Bargs is a much better passer, and fed CB on the block and down low as much as possible. Too bad CB never returned the favour.

All hail the 2010-2011 Bargs All Star Raptor Team!

Arguing for the sake of arguing usually means I would agree with you, but for my need to argue. That's not actually the case here. So I disagree with you and that's arguing for the sake of arguing; what does that make you when you disagree with me? Truth? LOL.

Bosh apparently drew enough contact to be one of the top in going to the line, especially considering his lower FGA than other top scorers, but apparently you think people were falling out of the sky to foul him as he faded away on 90% of his FGAs.

I also apparently didn't say anything about Bosh being a good passer -- in fact, I said "he is no Wade or LBJ with the ball" -- so I guess you're just arguing for the sake of arguing now. Regardless of Bargnani's passing prowess, true or not, he is at this very moment in time nowhere near the player that Bosh is, and this is coming from someone who actually LIKES Bargnani. Stop acting like it's a crime to like someone, but also like someone else better.

My first preference would be the draft pick, the second Rubio and the third Love but they are all excellent assets. I like Cousins with the draft pick, a low post scoring center + tough rebounder. A nice talent as a building block.

anyhow, to the matter at hand, i'd do all three of those trades in a millisecond. problem is i think minny prefers to trade jefferson, whom i wouldn't give up bargs for.

i really love rubio, and put him on par with the likes rose, rondo, or wall in terms of being franchise point guards to build around for 10+ years. my only reservation about him (that i don't think has been brought up yet) is that i've read he's not likely to come to the nba until 2012, not 2011, on account of him having a player option for one more year with his current team and the possibility of a lockout in 2011.

and if he does come in 2012 he's not bound to a rookie scale contract, so we'd hold his rights but he'd command free agent money. say 10 million a year. personally i think he's worth it (hell what are we paying jose? like 9.8 or something?) but it's still a pretty big risk to take on a player who's never played an nba game.

Yes, I've read the same reports, which seem to contradict what I'd read earlier in the year, that they want to keep Jefferson and trade Love. Personally, I think that is much smarter, as I'm not a big fan of big men who don't play defense, but I still wonder if they are still a good target for Bargnani.

I don't know if Rubio is still bound to his rookie contract. I was under the impression he was. Anyone care to help out?

Yes, I've read the same reports, which seem to contradict what I'd read earlier in the year, that they want to keep Jefferson and trade Love. Personally, I think that is much smarter, as I'm not a big fan of big men who don't play defense, but I still wonder if they are still a good target for Bargnani.

I don't know if Rubio is still bound to his rookie contract. I was under the impression he was. Anyone care to help out?

Seems you're right. Tiago Splitter is rumoured to be possibly getting most, if not all, of the Spurs MLE, so that backs it up, as well. He was a first round pick, but from three years ago.

Financially, it makes more sense to wait until 2012. Whether he wants to wait that long, and whether he can be persuaded to come before that, is the question. Either way, I think now is the best time to try and get him for the Raptors.

And someone being your best player by default is not a good reason for making him untouchable. It's probably easier to build a team around Love (good passer, good rebounder) or the #4 draft pick (Favors or Cousins) and if we can clear salary in a hurry, we could try to aim for the next big off-season. I'm not 100% sure about Rubio, but mostly because he would no longer be on an affordable rookie scale contract.