Brown

No its not absurd to say Islam is a way of life. It has a rule for everything and dictates how you deal with day to day stuff. It is also political as a religious block as opposed to individuals within it having personal political views. We don’t see Christian political parties because individuals within Christianity have varying political views and they finish up bickering like everyone else. Christianity is expressly apolitical while Muslims overwhelmingly want Sharia law. In this they stand apart from everyone else at a practical level.

To a believer it is the ONLY way to live. Period. It is THE way of life.

The Pew research published shows the actions of these killers are not reviled by the vast majority of Muslims…. far from it. The research shows sharia is the way Muslims want to live. And history shows, quite clearly, that Muslims will use violence to impose sharia when they can.

Christianity a thousand years ago was very similar. But Christianity is not a dominant force in Western life anymore, its influence has faded dramatically in the face of the enlightenment and scientific advancement.

All the equivalence arguments are quite specious.

I have meet and work with a few Muslims in a tech heavy industry. Nice people in the main. Individuals are not really the issue. Its the ideology and its zealots

Even if the West was totally disengaged from the Middle East it won’t bring the conflict to an end. Its just beginning. And when you are at war you don’t invite the enemy inside the walls – the Romans destroyed their civilisation in Western Europe by doing exactly that

Brown

Roman Catholicism was and that still distinguishes it from orthodox Christianity. Power allows control and the RC’s did that well as does Islam because they are after political power. RC’s are getting confronted and dragged into the enlightenment but the brutal Islam you see is just Islam.

Missy

Pete, Islam IS a way of life for all Muslims, not just the jihadis, I hear it daily. Muslims calling in saying that being Muslim is about Islam and living life as per the teachings of the prophet. Even those that I imagine you would class as moderate believe this, they don’t believe in secularism, they don’t believe that national laws should trump sharia law, but they understand that national laws do and will until they are living in the perfect state where sharia law and the teachings of the prophet are able to be practiced with no interference from the state. They view secular Muslims in the same way as they view non-Muslims.

These are what MODERATE Muslims are saying in the UK, they are British born, but they are not radicalised, yet still believe in the same principles as those in ISIS.

You show an incredible naivety and ignorance of how Muslims really think. The longer I am in the UK the more I am hearing about how many young Muslims think – not just the men, women believe the same, and somehow they have managed to brainwash liberals into believing the narrative of moderate and peaceful Muslims, many would happily stone a woman to death for the sin of being raped, most have excused and justified the grooming gangs raping young white girls, and the ones that claim to be disgusted by it are feeding the liberals view of Muslims by saying the right things, though many dismiss their disgust because the communities KNEW that it was happening.

There is a problem with the Muslim community, and Muslim men in particular, it is time to face up to the fact it is with the religion as much as the individuals. Islam need to go through a renaissance and (as I have heard it put) a secular revolution, in order for them to move past the fundamental problems with their religion.

Gezza

I agree with Corky. It’s not so much that Islam is a way of life, as that the way of life of Orthodox Islam is antithetical to other ways of life once the muslim community is large enough to demand the society they’ve settled into adjusts to & accommodates their restrictive & repressive way of life. Look at Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, UAE, Iran. Look at the experiences of European countries with large & growing muslim communities. Not good.

Blazer

start with…’where does ISIS ..come from’?ISIS is a reaction to destruction and despair in the ME.As Al Queda and other manifestations of muslim resistence become neutralised an even more militant,extreme ‘state’ was created, with a compelling message to an ever bigger audience.Ignoring the root cause and looking to address the calamity of terrorism ,guerilla warfare cannot work.Look to the Irish troubles for a lesson in defiance and longevity.

The Irish Troubles show that the Irish have the world’s longest memories. I have great trouble telling people why the Orange Marches go through the Catholic areas….

My mother’s first reaction to hearing that My husband was Eastern Orthodox was ‘Oh well, t least he’s not a Catholic.’ Those were her exact words. My ex-partner had names like Michael Joseph (a Catholic sounding name) which didn’t go down too well until I convinced them that he wasn’t one.

Not all Irish RCs were/are IRA supporters.

Not all Muslims are ISIS supporters, although the closed-minded bigots will never believe this. My GP is Muslim and so, I expect, is the tall, dark and handsome black man who is another of the GPs there. The one who owns the practice is English and I don’t know what the fourth one is. I have had nothing but kindness and care from Muslim doctors and nurses. I have had many pleasant conversations with local Muslims.

To assume that they are all ISIS, regardless of where they come from, shows incredible ignorance. Islam and ISIS are not synonymous.

Yes, Islam is a way of life-but not the ISIS way of life, any more than loony extremist Christians are the norm in Christianity. I cannot understand how anyone can’t see that. Does anyone assume that the Tamakis with their intolerance, greed and hypocrisy represent all Christians ?

Blazer

Kitty Catkin

I do know about the Troubles (they have a capital) as my parents were from Ulster. My grandfather and stepfather were Orangemen. However, the religious thing did play a large part & it’s all but impossible to seperate them. Going out with someone from the wrong religion was likely to lead to repercussions like knee-capping. You will be looking for a while to find a Protestant IRA member. The two sides lived in different areas in Belfast and probably still do. Someone I know was discreetly warned by a pub landlord that the song he was humming unconsciously would lead to trouble if anyone heard it ( I forget whether it was a Catholic or Protestant pub)

Blazer

Kitty Catkin

David

I am afraid I agree with Corky but saying being a Muslim is a way of life is not to disparage what is a choice for many. Having said that until more Muslim leaders and countries reform they allow some to take a literal version and lob gays off buildings, chop thieves hands off, murder totally innocent people and then be celebrated as true adherents. Islam needs its reformation and it probably needs to be pushed hard to start that process and not calling Islam out is not helpful.
Shape up or ship out because your ways have no place in our tolerant countries like our ways have no place in your repressive countries and arent tolerated.

Corky

David

Do you think that would be still true if Muslims were 70% of the population and held all the political power? How tolerant would the country be then. Can we perhaps look at the most tolerant Muslim countries with a majority of Muslims and even in the best case, the answer is not very tolerant at all.

Missy

Most of the British Muslims seem to be more tolerant of others as well.

The men in the Muslim grooming gangs were reportedly good neighbours and very tolerant of others – well except for white girls that is.

Those that call into the radio to support ISIS seem to be more tolerant of others, but they still say that the world should be ruled under a caliphate, Britain should have sharia law, white girls and women are easy meat.

The Muslim guy who I pass in the square seemed tolerant of others too Pete, but then when I am on my own & no-one in hearing distance he abuses me and calls me a white whore, and makes some of the most disgusting suggestions to me. Real Tolerant.

They are very good at deceiving with their appearance Pete. Operation Trojan Horse is a great example of it.

Sigh. It is now a typical post-Islamist terror ritual, for commentators to rush to assess whether the bulk of Muslims are moderate or terror-friendly; and, to what extent.

The reality is that there is only one Islamic nation in which an independent, secular legal and justice system has been practiced, where women are regarded as equal and where freedom of speech is encouraged. That country WAS Turkey. Sadly, their constitution is slowly but surely being undermined by a fervent Islamist leader intent on implementing his staunchly held view of Islamic nationalism. Erdogan’s purging the courts of secular judges, jailing of journalists and opposition politicians is slowly but surely turning the only example of a relatively tolerant liberal Islamic state into the same repressive regimes that every other Islamic state lives under.

The West has had considerable Islamic migration and for decades it was assumed that assimilation would happen seamlessly and that they would embrace secularism and freedom. That has not been the case. Isolation, (discussed at length) is more often the norm and religion both an anchor and the binding commonality between the isolated. Until host countries work a plan to effectively implement some cohesion this terrorism will continue. As for “outside” attacks such as 9/11 we are quite unable to influence these. Hundreds of millions of children are being brought up by profoundly fundamentalist religious parents. Hundreds of millions of children are being taught their religion alone makes them superior, to see others as infidels, and taught an abject hatred for the profane values of the West.

The wise words of Ataturk.

“He is a weak ruler who needs religion to uphold his government; it is as if he would catch his people in a trap. My people are going to learn the principles of democracy, the dictates of truth and the teachings of science. Superstition must go. Let them worship as they will; every man can follow his own conscience, provided it does not interfere with sane reason or bid him against the liberty of his fellow-men.” ~Mustafa Kemal Ataturk

Missy

Traveller, search out Maajid Nawaz on LBC Radio, listen to what he has to say about Islamism and Islamic terrorism. I think you might find him interesting, he is not the norm in the left or Muslim communities (he is both), he understands the connection between the religion and the terrorism, and he says it is time we talk about that. He also acknowledges that many Muslims who may be seen as moderate by the left / politicians / media are not necessarily moderates, and they are Muslims who – if conditions were right – would happily live in a caliphate with a literal translation of the Koran.

He also argues that the current fight is not Muslims v Christians, nor is is Islamic world v Western world, he said it is literalists (his word for Muslims who believe in the literal translation of the Koran) and secularists – and be sure when he talks about that he is talking about Muslims as well as Christians, but mainly Muslims. He said that Muslims have to go through their renaissance & reformation, not too dissimilar to what Christianity went through hundreds of years ago.

A very interesting person, I don’t agree on a lot of his politics (Remainer Lib Dem), but on this he is very good, and is not afraid to face up to the evil in his community and label it as it is – Muslims killing in the name of allah.

Missy

He identifies as a secular Muslim, I am not sure exactly if he has fully apostatised himself or just distanced himself from the more conservative aspects of Islam, and I think it is more that many Mosques won’t let him in as opposed to him choosing not to go to Mosque. I get the impression he still believes in the faith, but not the literal and conservative elements of it, so maybe he has semi apostatised himself as opposed to fully. Maybe like a lapsed Catholic, still believes just doesn’t go to church.

Enjoy your weekend. 🙂

Very busy, and I have family visiting as well so won’t be able to follow as closely as I would like in the next couple of months, but will do what I can.

Missy

Pete, not all Muslims are complicit with ISIS and ISIS terror attacks, but you cannot separate Muslims from ISIS, in the same way that people did not (and could not) separate Catholics from the Paedophile priests.

Maajid Nawaz is a radio presenter in the UK, he is also an expert on this subject, he has a degree in arabic, and he has studied the koran, as well as having gone through the radicalisation process – and subsequent de-radicalisation process, (though not to the extent of actually committing a terror act), he started a foundation that works on stopping radicalisation and working to de-radicalise those who have been radicalised. He says it is not an issue that can be separated from the Muslim community.

A lot of time this week has been spent looking at Muslims and the evil that some in their community do, first around the grooming gangs, and today around terrorism, and it is without fail mainly white liberals who call up excusing the terrorists as well as some Muslims. But interestingly there are a growing number of Muslims who are starting to get the confidence to speak out, and to recognise that the problem is in their community, and they understand until something is done within the community they are all complicit. This is the view of some Muslims in the UK.

Maajid Nawaz talks about literalists, those who want to interpret the Koran in a literal sense, this is what drives the grooming gangs to a degree (the belief that it is not wrong to have sex with children), and it is what drives ISIS. But what is scary is that there are so many of those so-called moderate Muslims that actually do not think ISIS are completely in the wrong. For example, today a Muslim man called in to speak to MN, he started out condemning the actions of ISIS and the terror attack in Barcelona, but during the conversation some of what he said apparently rang a warning bell with MN (though to be honest to me nothing in particular stood out that would make me think he was anything but moderate), MN asked some questions of this man after quoting relevant parts of the Koran, what came out was that this ‘moderate Muslim’ was in favour of Sharia Law, and the more barbaric forms of punishment (e.g.: lashing for fornication, chopping off limbs for theft) if the conditions were right, when we lived in what he called the perfect world. This man was upset and angry that MN did not believe this, and he accused MN of wanting to re-write the Koran, and not being a true Muslim because MN believes that Muslims must stop being literal with their book and should modernise their religion.

Pete, you are naive if you think Muslims are not complicit in what ISIS do, no not all, but a majority are complicit via their silence, they don’t speak up against hate preachers, they don’t report radicalisation – despite it happening in almost every mosque, they don’t speak out against Human Rights breaches, essentially they let it go because underneath their alleged moderate outlook they believe the same.

Missy

No, the onus is on the so-called Moderate Imams to condemn the extremists, this is because in the Muslim community the Imam holds a lot of power and influence.

I would not expect the Muslim who lives up the road to go out on the street and publicly denounce ISIS, just as I would not expect the Catholic down the road to condemn the priests. The people with influence and power are the ones that should condemn them, unfortunately when they do speak out against ISIS they get abuse from the so-called moderate Muslims, so no wonder those that are truly moderate won’t when their own community will tell them they aren’t real Muslims.

However, on your point on white supremacists, 1. In the UK at least when anything happens that the left labels ‘far right’ they expect Tommy Robinson to condemn it, along with the Conservative Government (apparently they are far right), Nigel Farage, and all other ‘far right’ (according to the left) people – so it does seem to cut both ways. 2. I notice you don’t expect ‘moderate’ leftists to condemn the far left. I have seen no-one call for the democrats or Labour (UK) to condemn the violence and thuggery of AntiFa, just as I don’t see the majority of people here calling for ordinary moderate Muslims to condemn ISIS.

Missy

Not sure how that is relevant to what I posted since I never mentioned Mt Roskill, or condemning ISIS when discussing the silence of Muslims. But I will play.

No, they are silent if they know the local mosque is preaching hate and jihad and refuse to speak to authorities, they are silent if they know of someone planning an attack and don’t report them, they are silent if they know that there may be illegal sharia courts being conducted and don’t report it, they are silent if they know of Muslim mean who beat their wives and don’t report it.

And based on UK experience there are far too many in the Muslim community that are silent.

Corky

The biosecurity system prevents or manages risks from harmful organisms, like pests and diseases. The biosecurity system helps protect New Zealand’s economy, environment, human health, and a range of social and cultural values. It does this by:

Stopping pests and diseases before they arrive
Dealing with any if they do enter the country.”

Corky

sorethumb

Empirical evidence supports Muslim exceptionalism. They are the only migrant group in Australia who are given a risk management categorisation. Analysis of the Quran reveals that calls to violence are fresh (as distinct from an Old Testament ).

Context – A list of all terrorist incidents within the last 8 years in Australia.

4 August 2009 – Planned Attack Holsworthy Barracks terror plot – Five arrested for an Islamist terrorist plot uncovered in August 2009 targeting Holsworthy Barracks—an Australian Army training area with automatic weapons. Given lengthy prison terms, the judge called them an ongoing threat to society as long as they were unrepentant of their jihadist attitudes. Connected with the Somali-based terrorist group al-Shabaab

23 September 2014 – Endeavour Hills stabbings – 18-year-old Numan Haider stabbed two counter-terrorism officers in Endeavour Hills, a suburb of Melbourne, Victoria, Australia. He was then shot dead. He had just recently had his passport canceled for fears he would join ISIL. Haider was carrying two knives and the Black Standard flag.

15 December 2014 Hostage Crisis and Shooting – 2014 Sydney hostage crisis – Man Haron Monis, a lone gunman, held hostage ten customers and eight employees of a Lindt chocolate café located at Martin Place in Sydney, Australia. The Sydney siege lead to a 16-hour standoff, during which 3 gunshots were heard from inside over a period of time. The first two shots were fired in the general direction of fleeing hostages and were left unopposed by on scene police command, however police officers from the Tactical Operations Unit stormed the café after reports the third shot was the execution of hostage Tori Johnson. Hostage Katrina Dawson was killed by a ricocheted bullet fragment in the subsequent raid. Monis was also killed. Three other hostages and a police officer were injured by police gunfire during the raid.

10 February 2015 Planned Attack Fairfield Raids – police in Sydney were tipped off two Islamic jihadists preparing terror attacks, arrested after observed purchasing weapons. They had already made a martyrdom video.

2 October 2015 – Parramatta shooting – 15 year old Farhad Khalil Mohammad Jabar, an Iraqi-Kurd, shot dead Curtis Cheng, a civilian employee of the New South Wales Police, before being shot dead by a New South Wales Police officer during a shootout.[16]
10 September 2016 Stabbing 0 2 2016 Minto stabbing attack: A 22-year-old man inspired by Islamic State stabbed a man before being arrested and charged with attempted murder. He also incurred minor injuries on a nearby shop owner.

7 April 2017 – Stabbing. Queanbeyan stabbing attacksOn 7 April 2017, a pair of 15 and 16 year old boys entered a service station in the small town of Queanbeyan in NSW and stabbed a 29-year old Zeeshan Akbar of Pakistani decent and Zeeshan soon died at the scene. Three other men were also attacked and injured at the scene. The 16-year old’s mother had told police that she believed that her son had been radicalised in recent weeks and that he sympathised with Islamic State and had also posted concerning posts on Facebook.

5 June 2017- Hostage taking, shooting. Yacqub Khayre killed one Chinese-Australian man in a serviced apartment complex and took an escort worker hostage in Brighton, Victoria. Three police officers were injured in a gunfight with the suspect before Khayre was shot dead. ISIL claimed responsibility for the attack and Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull described the incident as terrorism, however Victoria Police warned that there was no evidence to suggest he was acting on orders given from overseas. Khayre had previously been charged in relation to the Holsworthy Barracks terror plot but was acquitted in trial. He had recently been released on parole.

28 July 2017. 5 men arrested at addresses in Sydney. Plot to ‘bring down’ plane foiled by counter-terrorism police in Sydney. The attack was to target the Australian aviation industry at a major airport, police said. Colvin said there was no evidence that security at Australian airports had been compromised. “Terrorists are becoming very ingenious about ways to defeat our security mechanisms,” he said.

Blazer

‘7 April 2017 – Stabbing. Queanbeyan stabbing attacksOn 7 April 2017, a pair of 15 and 16 year old boys entered a service station in the small town of Queanbeyan in NSW and stabbed a 29-year old Zeeshan Akbar of Pakistani decent and Zeeshan soon died at the scene. Three other men were also attacked and injured at the scene. The 16-year old’s mother had told police that she believed that her son had been radicalised in recent weeks and that he sympathised with Islamic State and had also posted concerning posts on Facebook.

Elements within the MSM in the USA have alarmingly said that the Spanish terrorist attacks may have been influenced or even a “copy cat” version of the “Charlottesvile” murder.

Can anyone here explain their interpretation within the context of the liberal/conservative meinung or the conversation here, where PG says

“Some people blame everyone who they think aren’t like them, or all of a group they don’t like.”

I had to use a Fox video as I couldn’t find an individual link to the MSNBC piece, so apologies to sensitive sausages in advance 😫

Not much shocks me about CNN and MSNBC, but it is stretching their credibility, their judgement and it is profoundly disingenuous and Amerocentric to equate Spain with Charlottesville. It’s almost as if there had never been hundreds killed the world over in countless car attacks by Islamist terrorists.

Corky

Missy

This is an odd spin on it all, and seems to be the Americans once again thinking everyone follows them, my guess would be the Charlottesville killer copied what was happening in Europe.

There have been 7 vehicle attacks in Europe this year, 9 since the Nice attack. It is a growing phenomenon.

The reporting here (from Spanish authorities) is that they were planning an attack with bombs and explosives – most likely on the Cathedral, but due to them blowing them all up accidentally on Wednesday they reverted to a less sophisticated attack. The authorities are suggesting they were influenced by the previous attacks in Europe.

MaureenW

Kitty Catkin

I wouldn’t say that they are all lunatics, but I have discovered since my husband died of cancer that many (most) of the ones I know do not practice what they preach. Even people I have known for many years and had considered to be friends don’t want to know me now that I am on my own (and I mean on my own-no family of any kind in NZ, except some second cousins whom I haven’t seen since I was 15) It’s as if I had leprosy.

None of them seem to have the Book of James in their Bibles (This is pure religion…to visit the widows and orphans in their affliction)

But why people can’t see that Muslims vary as much as any other religion is beyond me. Nor can I see how they imagine that Muslims who are being and have been attacked by ISIS are members and supporters of it !!!!