I noticed that Mirai does two jump combos that Yuna does. Triple Lutz Tripe Toe and double Axel and Triple toe combo with a spread eagle going in. She tried/succeeded them in the Olympics and the Worlds I believe. Mirai knows they are score getters for Yuna. I don't know of any other ladies who are trying that at this time. May be someone can name anyone else whose doing those.

Well, I dont know about other skaters right now, but I am sure we will be seeing tons of "wanna be Yuna" kids within 5 years.

I don't have to go to the protocols to look for Yuna's splendid speed she maintains throughout her programs. She is decidedly a unique skater in that field. Other ladies may build up speed for a particular move (e.g. spiral) but they have not shown the constant level of speed throughout their programs.

Laura Lepisto is another great skater who not only maintains her speed throughout the program but her stroking is among the best all time. There is a lack of stroking in todays skating. It could be because of the CoP. Just give me that old time flow across the ice.

Figure skating is a sport where the World Champion or the default #1 skater sets the tone. Just as Ito's arrival in the late 80's accelerated the demise of figures and pushed the ladies figure skating towards a triple jump competition today, the same can be said about Browning and Stojko, whose reign also brought about profound change in men's skating through Quad as well. If we look at the history of this sport over the course of the last 20 years or so, ladies today seem to lag behind technically compared to what they were once capable of in the early 1990's. Aside from the Triple Axel, ladies back then were doing Triple Lutz + Triple Toe almost as a prerequisite to be competitive. The changes brought by Ito and Yamaguchi seemed to take a different direction after Baiul's upset over Kerrigan in the 1994 Olympics, followed by two consecutive years of World Championship where the ladies title was won by women who were deemed 2nd best technically but won due to the artistic impression. From that point on, the ladies and men skating took a somewhat divergent path where the men pushed the envelope technically while the ladies trended towards the precision and more interpretive aspect of figure skating. Triple-Triple for ladies became a seldom occurrence, notwithstanding, Tara Lipinski's brief surge on the scene for about 1 year and half. Aside from the jumps, you can see the men doing so much more than ladies in virtually every aspect of their skating, such as difficult transitions into difficult jumps, fancy footwork, variation on jump's in air positions and etc. Seldom do you see ladies doing any of those.

In the early part of this century, both Olympic Champions in ladies skating, Hughes and Arakawa, were considered surprise winners and neither of them stuck around and thus, failed to provide any leadership in this sport. Arakawa for instance won in Torino with only 5 Triple jumps. Any chance of that happening in men? It is more likely that pigs will grow wings and fly before this happens. Kim's rise to the top of the Olympic podium in 2010 was widely anticipated with her growth alongside Japan's Mao Asada for several years prior to the Vancouver Olympic. Kim wouldn't be as influential as she is today without Asada being a formidable and long-run competitor that she is. Both ladies, in many ways, worked towards pushing the envelope once again for ladies skating.

After posting some 150+ scores in the Vancouver Olympics LP, Kim's record will serve to inspire the ladies to once again push the envelope technically as opposed to continuously drifting away from the men, who dominate virtually every technical aspect of this sport, which wasn't the case in the 1990's. Back then, many elite male skaters expressed apprehension to compete in the ladies' event knowing that there were women who can actually outjump and outskate them. Adam Rippon of USA recently joked that he finally beats Yu-Na Kim's SP scores at the most recent World Championship. It was a joke but it was also quite telling that elite male skaters once again found admiration for what their female counterparts can do whereas a few years back, men were fighting each over how many quads to land while ladies were struggling to hang on to a Triple Lutz + Double toe combo. The difference can't be more glaring.

When people asked me if I agree with Kim's 150+ scores in Vancouver and what do I think about my time there during the Vancouver Olympic, I tend to think of this question in a philosophical way because I know the significance of this score is not merely some petty arguments between certain fans over whether this is too high or justified or otherwise. The little girls working very hard in their way up in this sport today will look at this and aspire to be the next Yu-Na Kim. To this end, Kim's accomplishment likely have pushed these young kids whom you and I are probably not aware yet to challenge themselves and move the ladies figure skating forward again. I refuse to believe Kristi Yamaguchi and Midori Ito are once a 100 year occurence, just as I refused to believe Elvis Stojko was the only man who could land Quad+Triple even though it was difficult to envision any otherwise back in 1997 when Stojko first landed that combo and shocked the world. Kim's ability to push the envelope technically through her Triple Lutz + Triple Toe combos and as well as her unique ability to inspire and draw people to look at her while she is on ice will definitely inspire the young girls to change and to be like that. This doesn't mean Kim is a perfect skater, such perfection doesn't exist, every skater has their strengths and weaknesses. But changes in this sport takes leadership, not some non-existent perfection. 10 years from now, people are going to remember Kim won the Vancouver Olympics by posting 150+ in her LP but not the fact she didn't do a Triple Loop, which would be at best, a mere footnote in the book of history. It is that 150+ accomplishment that will inspire youngsters to challenge themselves and ultimately push the direction of ladies figure skating towards a new horizon.

I have nothing else to say but I'm still hoping that Yuna will continue to compete!

Then I guess you have never seen Stephane Lambiel. This guy can do Quads but not Triple Axel. So no, it is entirely possible for a man to win the Olympic without the Triple Axel, that is if you can put two Quads in there to replace the 3A like Lambiel did.

D'oh. I'd heard Stephane's reputation for struggling with 3A's but I didn't know his success rate with quads was higher. I only saw an older LP of his that had both 3A and quad.

Originally Posted by hurrah

I didn't mean it as a bait. Just forget it.

Oh? Then did you mean it as an earnest answer to the question posed by the original poster of this thread? Or merely as a swipe against YuNa? Any way I look at it: laaame.

Wallylutz, thanks for your thoughtful answers. If I get you right, basically what you're saying is that Yuna is a catalyst for the ladies competition to push the boundaries of technique once again. I think we're already seeing this to a degree, especially with the young Russian girls like Elizaveta Tuktamysheva already performing 3Lz+3T and 2A+3T plus Mishin wants to teach her 3A. I think what is also important is that Yuna has pushed the technical aspects of skating without sacrificing artistry and skating skills. I predict that the young Russian girls are going to be a force to be reckoned with at Sochi.

Oh? Then did you mean it as an earnest answer to the question posed by the original poster of this thread? Or merely as a swipe against YuNa? Any way I look at it: laaame.

Well, I asked for this. But it wasn't a swipe at Yuna so much as a swipe at the judging system. After all, it's not Yuna who judges her performances.

Just to be honest, let me reiterate that I am not Yuna's fan. However, I do recognize that she deserved her Olympic gold medal, and she's given alot to figure skating. And I think she's a great athlete. And her fortitude and courage is amazing.

Wallylutz, thanks for your thoughtful answers. If I get you right, basically what you're saying is that Yuna is a catalyst for the ladies competition to push the boundaries of technique once again. I think we're already seeing this to a degree, especially with the young Russian girls like Elizaveta Tuktamysheva already performing 3Lz+3T and 2A+3T plus Mishin wants to teach her 3A. I think what is also important is that Yuna has pushed the technical aspects of skating without sacrificing artistry and skating skills. I predict that the young Russian girls are going to be a force to be reckoned with at Sochi.

I don't know if these young Russian girls are necessary the future just as someone else thinks the 12 year old South Korean Champion in ladies is the next one. It seems to me, it's a little premature to make any such claim. Though one thing for certain, the seeds have been planted and it would definitely be helpful if Yu-Na Kim sticks around for a little longer.

In some ways, I regret the fact that ladies and men skating have took such a divergent path in the mid-1990s. When Quad was first landed by Kurt Browning, it took a while for this jump to be popularized among men. First, it led to the emergence of Elvis Stojko who was providing formidable challenge to Browning back home. Even then, it was run like a two men show with the other men kind of fearful about even trying this new trick. Most of them, by then, were well established veterans and nobody had the nerves to learn this big new trick. Then Browning retired / defeated by Stojko, passed the torch to him, Stojko being the "unmusical" / manly skater that he was, focused his career on that jump. He brought it up to the next level, an almost Quad+Triple attempt in the 1994 Worlds, then finally, landed it almost 3 years later, at the 1997 Champion Series Final in Canada or as we know today, the GPF.

It took approximately 10 years, between the time when the first Quad was landed until it becomes a staple in men's skating but there was no doubt that during this period, we had this young generation of men, including Plushenko, Weiss, Goebel and Yagudin who were all challenging themselves because of what Browning and Stojko have done.

Almost 20 years after the era of Yamaguchi and Ito, ladies skating, for the better or the worse, have gone to a different direction that I find almost boring. Sure, Michelle Kwan was a great champion and very respectable athlete but her own legacy is most likely shaped by her own experience in the early part of her career as well. As a 15 year old, she skated flawlessly in the Birmingham World Championship in 1995, yet still finished 4th, even though she outskated everybody else technically. From that experience, we saw a suddenly transformed Michelle Kwan with Frank Carroll immediately gave her heavy makeup the following season, to the point that even Dick Button almost didn't recognize it was Kwan beneath those makeup. Ladies skating has been focusing so much on the precision of the skating but less so on challenging themselves in part because the more subjective 6.0 system really didn't foster an environment where the leading women felt the need to do as much. All Kwan or Slutskaya had to do was go clean with 6 or 7 triples, the 2nd mark will take care of the rest. If Michelle Kwan had not been an American, I don't know how popular this sport would have been in the United States during that time.

I have a lot of respect for Midori Ito because I think she truly was the catalyst that made ladies skating a sport today as we know it. If anyone had the chance to see what the 1988 Olympic was like, it was a zzzzzzzzzzzz fest for the ladies competition - that is if you can call it a competition. Ito and Manley were the only exceptions. So if Ito is compared to Browning, then I think Kim and her rivalry with Asada would best represent the follow up equivalent to Stojko, albeit some 20 years later than the men.

Wallylutz I have another question for you. You posted an interesting analysis on the current trend in ladies figure skating.

Here's what you wrote:
"oh yeah, there are many young girls who are doing it but not seriously though. Joannie even tried to do quads in practice, but that doesn't mean anything. I have seen plenty of talented young girls doing all kinds of crazy jumps, doesn't mean they are anywhere close to put them in competition. But I do think we will eventually see more girls trying the Triple Axel, maybe in another 5~7 years is my guess. When Quad was first landed by Browning, it was like that fancy toy that most men liked to watch but didn't want to touch. It took Stojko to make it a staple of men's skating and standardize it. Between the time of Browning and Quad becoming a staple, it took approximately 10 years. Midori Ito introduced us to Triple Axel for women but nobody really followed her to make it a staple for women, by & large, because it was unnecessary. After Ito, ladies' skating sort of took a slightly different path vs. the Men's - whereas the men have followed the lead of their World Champions (aka. Stojko) and emphasized on jumps, the post Yamaguchi/Ito era, ladies have evolved to emulate Baiul, Chen and Kwan where they were known for their elegance and artistic impression. Tara Lipinski's brief surge didn't really interrupt that trend because she was on the world scene for barely 1 year before she suddenly retired. Even till today, the emphasis of ladies skating is still somewhat different to men's. In ladies, the emphasis is still on precision, hence someone like Yu-Na Kim who is a great precision skater excels in the SP and usually overwhelm her competitions before the LP even takes place. Asada on the other hand is a so so precision skater, hence her lower GOE and etc. She is trying to buck the trend, which you have to give her credit for that so eventually, there should be more women who will look like her but there will still be plenty who will follow Kim's style. We may be living a very interesting time in ladies' skating where there is a bi-polar trend so I am very curious as to what the future holds. My 6th sense is telling me Asada and Kim have introduced something to ladies skating that will have profound change in this sport beyond what we see today. "

My question is do you think the bi-polar trend will continue in the future or do you think it will eventually lean towards one style?

The saddest thing about the situation is that Arakawa was very technically capable e.g. she pulled off a 3-3-3 in practice, but I guess she and Morosov felt pretty confident she didn't need any 3-3's in the actual showdown.

As i recall, the scuttlebutt at the time went something like this. Shizuka had been "winning the practices" all week, and planned 3Lz+3Lo and 3S+3T combos in her long program. When Sasha fell, and Arakawa skated with only two skaters left to go afterward, Shizuka's extensive coaching team and brain-trust decided to play it safe, ensuring at least a medal. (Japan had won 0 medals up to that point.)

So they took out the 3Lz+3Lo and went with 3Lz+2Lo, but still planned the 3S+3T. However, in the actual skate, Shizuka did not land the 3S well enough and had to bail with 3S+2T.

Wallylutz I have another question for you. You posted an interesting analysis on the current trend in ladies figure skating.

[...]

My question is do you think the bi-polar trend will continue in the future or do you think it will eventually lean towards one style?

I wish I have a crystal ball but I don't. That's why I am curious too as to what the future holds. See, I don't always understand how a woman thinks, especially that of a female athlete. I can tell you how an elite male athlete would likely react in similiar situation, though sometimes, it's very difficult to compare the same sport between men and women. To me, the women have lagged behind so much in a sport where the best skater in the world may not necessarily be a man as is the case say in marathon, swimming and etc. But I do think that some young girls, especially those with the fire in them to win and succeed, will study all the great women before them and find a way to craft their own path towards triumph. I am still waiting to see that one person to blend in all the greats that we have seen in the past few decades into one individual. Maybe it's my own wishful thinking. It is my hope however the next generation of female skaters will have a little bit of everything. If I have a daughter and she wants to skate, I will teach her the blend of athletism and performance of Kim, the perseverance of Asada, the courage of Rochette and pray that she would somehow have the jumping talents of Ito while her feet are as quick and light as that of Sato. What the future really holds, we'll just have to wait and see.

I don't have to go to the protocols to look for Yuna's splendid speed she maintains throughout her programs. She is decidedly a unique skater in that field. Other ladies may build up speed for a particular move (e.g. spiral) but they have not shown the constant level of speed throughout their programs.

Laura Lepisto is another great skater who not only maintains her speed throughout the program but her stroking is among the best all time. There is a lack of stroking in todays skating. It could be because of the CoP. Just give me that old time flow across the ice.

Yes, the speed. Everyone speaks of Kostner and her speed. She is known for her speed but also not being able to use the speed in a way that works for her. As in helping her jump higher and further by using her speed. For her, all the analysts are saying her speed gets in her way (getting her too close to the board etc. that I hear).

Yuna has speed and she has consistent speed through out her program, and before and after her jumps. I think that is underestimated.

For most ladies skaters, they may have speed or may not, but most of them telegraph the jumps. Which is a normal thing I believe. But that is not what makes an Olympic champion.

IMO, what is most significant about her skating technically and often downplayed in discussions like this is her speed across the ice; executing each element in a blazing speed. Her speed is the engine of her skating. She gets her huge jumps from the momentum out of her speed. The grand scale of her dynamic skating also comes from her vast ice coverage during the performances. Besides her astounding jumps and excellent edge quality, this is another area Yuna clearly has competitive advantage over other skaters and where others have so much difficulty emulating. I am sure coaches and skating mums around the world hoping to raise a next Yuna will emphasize this to their kids in their training as much as jumps and other elements.

I think her biggest contribution to the sport so far in her rather short career is that she has shown the skating world how you can construct and perform a program in which you seamlessly blend the top notch technicality and artistry together; how you connect each technically demanding element with fluent transitions and movements and present the whole program as one body. Choreographers certainly plays a part in coming up with such programs, but it is the skater who actually puts everything together through her performance. No one in my memory has shown this possibility as bluntly as Yuna did.

She showed the young skaters how important it is to focus on improving quality of execution. Besides all the GOE's she garners from her jumps, she executes every other element very well; she doesn't have the best spins and spirals in the business, but she makes sure her quality in these elements are up there in the high rank so that she stays even-leveled with other skaters who are the best in these areas.

I wish I have a crystal ball but I don't. That's why I am curious too as to what the future holds. See, I don't always understand how a woman thinks, especially that of a female athlete. I can tell you how an elite male athlete would likely react in similiar situation, though sometimes, it's very difficult to compare the same sport between men and women. To me, the women have lagged behind so much in a sport where the best skater in the world may not necessarily be a man as is the case say in marathon, swimming and etc. But I do think that some young girls, especially those with the fire in them to win and succeed, will study all the great women before them and find a way to craft their own path towards triumph. I am still waiting to see that one person to blend in all the greats that we have seen in the past few decades into one individual. Maybe it's my own wishful thinking. It is my hope however the next generation of female skaters will have a little bit of everything. If I have a daughter and she wants to skate, I will teach her the blend of athletism and performance of Kim, the perseverance of Asada, the courage of Rochette and pray that she would somehow have the jumping talents of Ito while her feet are as quick and light as that of Sato. What the future really holds, we'll just have to wait and see.

Thanks for your detailed reply. I also hope future young skaters will strive to combine the styles left by past great skaters.

IMO, what is most significant about her skating technically and often downplayed in discussions like this is her speed across the ice; executing each element in a blazing speed. Her speed is the engine of her skating. She gets her huge jumps from the momentum out of her speed. The grand scale of her dynamic skating also comes from her vast ice coverage during the performances. Besides her astounding jumps and excellent edge quality, this is another area Yuna clearly has competitive advantage over other skaters and where others have so much difficulty emulating. I am sure coaches and skating mums around the world hoping to raise a next Yuna will emphasize this to their kids in their training as much as jumps and other elements.

I think her biggest contribution to the sport so far in her rather short career is that she has shown the skating world how you can construct and perform a program in which you seamlessly blend the top notch technicality and artistry together; how you connect each technically demanding element with fluent transitions and movements and present the whole program as one body. Choreographers certainly plays a part in coming up with such programs, but it is the skater who actually puts everything together through her performance. No one in my memory has shown this possibility as bluntly as Yuna did.

She showed the young skaters how important it is to focus on improving quality of execution. Besides all the GOE's she garners from her jumps, she executes every other element very well; she doesn't have the best spins and spirals in the business, but she makes sure her quality in these elements are up there in the high rank so that she stays even-leveled with other skaters who are the best in these areas.