052 CF Suicide, Depression, and Recovery with Jorge Reyes- Transcript

Michael: Welcome back to the show. I'm here with Jorge Reyes, and we're talking about a very interesting subject. And it's very serious for some developers out there in ColdFusion which is ColdFusion suicide, depression, and recovery. And Jorge here has a very interesting story to tell of a couple of experiences he's had with this. But we're gonna start off the show with a quick true or false quiz for everyone listening. And we're also gonna look at if you have any friends who’ve either thought about suicide, or committed suicide, how you can deal with that. And we'll have some resources in case anyone's feeling suicidal, or knows someone who is. So, very important topic. Welcome Jorge.

Jorge: Thank you Michael.

Michael: So, you mentioned you put together a little quiz for me and the listeners; true or false.

Jorge: true or false

Michael: What are those questions?

Jorge: Yeah, because it is important that we kind of set in check some of the assumptions that people have about suicide, or people considering to commit suicide. So, I wanted to kind of access you and the audience with those.

Michael: I'm ready.

Jorge: yeah

Michael: I hope everyone listening has sharpened their pencils, or their fingertips on their keyboard.

Jorge: So the first one…

Michael: We’ll put it on the show notes too.

Jorge: Cool! The person with suicidal thoughts will have those thoughts all of his or her life. True or false, Michael.

Michael: false

Jorge: False, that is actually true. So suicide is actually a permanent solution for temporary problems. That is something everybody needs to know, right. Emotions and everything that goes around suicide is temporary, right. It's going to end someday. But if suicide is just a permanent solution that people take for something that could go away either soon, or later but it will go away. [Inaudible] [02:10] the right things and move in the right direction. And we're gonna talk more about that in a moment. So yeah…

Michael: all right

Jorge: True or false, suicidal thoughts shouldn't be talked directly. You will make the person kill him or herself faster; true or false.

Michael: I'll go false on that one.

Jorge: Why is that?

Michael: Because if you don't talk about it, how can they get out of the depression and suicidal thoughts?

Jorge: it’s true

Michael: I think talking helps. And if unfortunately they still kill themselves after they’ve talked with them, at least you tried, yeah.

Jorge: That's absolutely true. You need to actually address the issue directly, and don't cut around corners or anything. Just face hard facts and you can even block the ask questions, “Hey have you tried to kill yourself, are you thinking about it?” And cut to the chase, skip the small talk. It is very important to talk the issues directly with somebody you think is going through some suicidal thoughts, or depression, or any of the early stages of suicide, right?

Michael: Yeah, I mean I totally agree with that. We'll talk a little later about a ColdFusion developer who got in that situation, and did kill himself so. But let's carry on with the quiz.

Jorge: All right number three; four more to go. If a person already tried to kill himself or herself, a new attempt is less likely.

Michael: Well, that's a good one. I’m going to go false with that. I think the more times someone has tried to kill himself, the more times than likely to kill themselves.

Jorge: Yeah, and a new attempt is actually more likely. 80 percent of suicides are not on the first attempt. That is statistic from the US. 80 percent of suicides are not the first attempts. 20 percent of the time, people actually succeed the first time. They try to kill themselves and there that. 80 percent of the time is not the first time they tried it when they actually succeed. So, actually one of the risks groups with higher risk of committing suicide is somebody that already attempted once. All right, suicide happens without warning.

Michael: I'm gonna go false with that. I think if you look back on it, there is some warning.

Jorge: Yeah, is true and like you say, there is some warning. There warnings can be very, very different. And 85 percent suicidal people throw either an open, or a secret warning to somebody around them, right. So, they have the intention to send out direct or indirect message to somebody, right.

Michael: What's a secret…? An open warning is where you actually tell someone, right? You know you thinking of committing suicide.

Jorge: yeah

Michael: But what would a secret warning be?

Jorge: A secret warning would be like… I don’t know if you manage to see here at my back but I have an Eiffel tower there. So if somebody’s here and is looking at the tower saying, “If I jump out of there or from there, how long will it take me to get the route?

Michael: Oh, kind of indirect.

Jorge: So it's got an indirect is… He’s thinking about killing himself. He's not telling you, “You know what, I can’t deal with it, I want to kill myself.” But he's talking about it indirectly, right. Like thinking about scenarios and playing around with that. Or do you think somebody would miss me if I'm gone? Or things like that; talking about death, or in his suggestions, right. There also early warnings that come without saying anything.

Like depression, there are signs of depressions, and it's a vast topic. We did not cover here but it is very common, but depression leads to suicide, right. And on the later stages of somebody committing suicide, I mean sure before committing suicide, there are signs like saying goodbye in a weird way. Like saying goodbye to everybody. Like Michael, you’ve truly been a good friend, thinking about you I want to say thank you for everything. I love you. You know those kind of things. [That's not what I mean.]

Michael: I love you too, Jorge.

Jorge: But they really go [crosstalk] [06:58]

Michael: … right now okay. You trying to tell me something.

Jorge: Yeah, that happens in real life and other things that… Doctors were talking about is this necessity of being chaos to order. Some people before they commit suicide, they get into cleaning everything, they feel neat. They wear the best clothes and everything. So they prepare everything because they don't want to leave chaos behind them. So…

Michael: They fix all the bugs in their code.

Jorge: yeah

Michael: [Crosstalk] someone might be suicidal if they…

Jorge: They feel bad if they leave a bug there. They cannot kill themselves. So if you have a software filled with bugs, it’s not necessarily a bad thing. But this insight was actually given by a friend of mine. He had [inaudible] [07:53] that is a doctor. So suicide is a very interesting topic for medicine as well from the clinical perspective on everything, and people actually ignore a few facts that we’re reviewing today. All right, next question.

Michael: Someone bragging about… What is the questions? I lost it.

Michael: Someone bragging about killing him, or herself just wants to draw attention to themselves.

Jorge: Exactly! What do you think, true or false?

Michael: That's a common belief, isn't it? That’s like a cry for help or they want attention. Oh yes, false. I don't think that's true for everyone or anyone.

Jorge: Exactly, the issue is thinking everybody is doing it for calling attention, right. So, what a doctor is gonna tell you, or a human being will tell as well is that you should take every suicidal comment seriously, right because you don't know who you're dealing with. And something that I came across when I was researching suicide is that you should never underestimate all those people problems, or pains. And that kind of stuck with me because you know maybe tomorrow, I lose my job for me, is not a big thing.

So, if I see somebody in pain because they lost their job, I'm like, “What, what’s wrong with you? It’s only a job.” But then, every crisis that leads to a suicide is very subjective and it's experience at the individual levels, so it’s different for everybody. So what is something that will cost you serious pain maybe it's nothing for me, and vice-versa. And what will cause you to go into a crisis mode it's nothing for me, or vice-versa. So we should never underestimate all those people’s problems or pains. And with someone’s bragging about kill themself, take that seriously. So assume it is true until proven otherwise, right. All right, so…

Michael: The final question in this quiz.

Jorge: Yeah, people with suicidal thoughts, they absolutely want to die.

Michael: I think I'm gonna have to go false on that one because like just because someone's thinking about it doesn't mean they really mean to die.

Jorge: Yeah, it is true. It is correct. So, you score 100 percent Michael, congratulations.

Michael: wow!

Jorge: People with suicidal thoughts…

Michael: How are people listening at home doing? I wonder.

Jorge: good question

Michael: We'll have to know in the comments on the show notes.

Jorge: People with suicidal thoughts they don't want to die. You know why? Because it is unnatural. Wanting to die is unnatural and there's something called ‘The subjective moment’. What for every person that commits suicide. There's an interesting example of this of one of the Golden Gate bridge jumpers who actually survived. I don't know if you’ve seen it Michael, but…

Michael: no

Jorge: Go look it up.

Michael: yeah

Jorge: I can’t remember his name. He was like staring at the water, wanting to jump. And then he described this subjective moment which is a clinical term for what happens when you cannot separate yourself from reality.

Michael: oh!

Jorge: And it could be for a few minutes. Explains why when people talk about when they cut themselves they didn't feel anything. They were feeling like numb and all of sudden, pain kicked in. They didn't want to die and they rushed to the hospital, called somebody. But for this guy, the subjective moment lasted like for a millisecond.

Michael: wow!

Jorge: He was hanging from one hand like this, and he let himself go. And as soon as he let go, he said, “Oh my God! I don't want to die.”

Michael: oh!

Jorge: And he was in his mind thinking, “Oh my God, how could I tell somebody that I really want… didn’t want to die?” And he survived, so he’s alive and kicking, and has been able to tell that story. But at the end of the day, for suicide to happen which is something unnatural. Because you don't see animals killing themselves, do you?

Michael: No, I haven't seen that, no.

Jorge: It's not natural right, it’s unnatural so. This is a subjective moment where you kind of lose the perception of reality, kind of separate yourself from reality. Is basically the last [inaudible] in somebody committing suicide. In his mind, that's what happens Mike. But you and I both believe there's something more than the clinical part of everything, right?

Michael: There’s a spiritual side to things too.

Jorge: There's a spiritual side of it and I believe that there's a God-given desire to live, to appreciate life, to see how precious it is. So, it is unnatural. So, persons with suicidal thoughts; they absolutely want to die, completely false.

Michael: So, I think we should issue a little disclaimer here neither one of us are doctors and neither of us play a doctor on T.V. But we're going to give some resources to some stuff later in the show around who you can talk to… you know [crosstalk] [14:15]

Jorge: That's important to mention. Like you said we're just human beings talking through experience and observation, that’s all.

Michael: Yeah, so tell me about you and your ColdFusion developer who did commit suicide. Tell us about that.

Jorge: Yeah, actually

Michael: That's where this all started; your investigation into this matter.

Jorge: Yeah, this all started because at the beginning of this year, actually January, we train our group of developers. We were teaching them about code bugs and N.B.C. and all that good stuff. And we always do a follow up with the training groups. And sometimes, we get mixed groups you know, people from multiple companies at the same time. This was a private training, right; private virtual training. And when we did the follow up one month later, there was one missing. And we're like, “Where is this guy?” And then they told, “I’m sorry to tell you, but he killed himself so.”

Michael: wow!

Jorge: [Inaudible] [15:27] the key sense of that in my mind, I just couldn't stand the fact that I was actually talking to that guy four weeks earlier. And maybe if I would have mentioned something, then things would have been different. I don't know. But there's always that maybe, maybe, maybe, if, if, if, but I don't know. It felt weird. I didn't feel guilty or anything it was just it feels weird. Like there's something you could probably have done if you were thinking about it a little bit more actively. So we decided…

Michael: Was he… did he appear depressed in the training?

Jorge: No, not at all and that goes around the topic of the usual conversation levels that you have with people. Most conversations don’t go beyond a small talk. They just say it like that. Like we are not used to jumping into personal big talk issues right away; specifically not in a training session. But then we say why not, right? And that's what for our conference on code box, we created a section inspired on that saying, “Hey life is more than software. That's more important; why don't talk about it then?” So that's where it all started. And it's been uttered in experience from us because one thing is wanting to help and another thing is being prepared to do so, and we noticed that every situation is different.

People are actively seeking for help and need availability from people giving help. So there are some things to be considered before you say, “Hey want to help, come here, count me in, right.” So we decided to take the role of starting to talk about it. Talk about it bring it out there that this is a national issue, and there are people probably in the CFML community going through either early stages of suicide that could lead to suicide, or going through already thoughts of killing themselves. So that's why it's important to address them to say, “Hey, there is what you're experiencing. Don't be afraid to reach out those close to you. As you know, a shared burden is half the burden, right?

Michael: yes

Jorge: So it's not [inaudible] [18:16] or less.

Michael: Sharing it you know, actually helps reduce it.

Jorge: So I guess the message is for two major groups of people. Like I mentioned before to you personally is persons, or people going through suicidal thoughts or depression, and people actually are around these people who are getting depression or suicidal thoughts. They both have an active role to play in the story. And that's why I started with the true and false because if you would answer false, it basically takes responsibility of people around it.

When you answer true, you start to realize that, you know what? They say decides there are things that they share so it should be aware of people saying they're going to kill themselves. You can’t just discard them like, oh they're just bragging right. Is it happens without warning. No, it doesn't. You're really talking about stuff that it's probably not going to do it. No, he most likely will try again. So you need to intervene there, do something, right?

Michael: yeah

Jorge: Because what they're experiencing can happen to anybody. Can happen to you, can happen to me, and it's temporary.

Michael: Yeah, I imagine really every… I mean I certainly have been depressed in my life and I imagine everyone listening has had times where they were depressed. And to be honest Jorge, the career we picked working with computer software using ColdFusion. I mean you know it's fun and engaging. But we spend a heck of a lot of time not talking with other people and stuck in front of a computer screen. It's not exactly you know, if you're having a bad day, it's not like the computer is gonna listen.

Jorge: Yeah, that's what at least my friend who is a doctor called your anxiety and stress-free resources, right. So, when they assess a case of a suicidal person, they start asking what are your resources, right? One of the resources is your friends. You have friends, you have a hobby right. Because for example when I have stress and anxiety which is I mean certain levels of stress and anxiety are part of every person's state life. So you have this daily state of anxiety and you have resources to kind of deal with that. As you can see in the background, I have a punching bag. Not because I like to hit stuff, but because I like doing exercise. I play the guitar, that’s a resource. I have… I like reading.

Michael: I think it’s good to punch a punching bag, or a pillow.

Jorge: oh yeah!

Michael: You know get a baseball bat out and whack something inanimate. People do take boxing, or cardio, or do something to get the stress out you know.

Jorge: Yeah definitely, so the issue with somebody that's on depression is that for them, everybody has a threshold. There's only so much you can withstand with the kind of resources that you have. Like when one side of the stress level goes beyond the threshold where your resources can no longer counter effect the effects of the anxiety and stress. Then that's where you start losing control because you're… well nothing you do is changing anything right. And then is where you start trying to do new strategies, new researches, new things then that fails. Ana all of a sudden, all the resources are being used up one by one, one by one.

And adding to the stress and anxiety you consume all your resources, you're drained, you have no more energy, right. You have all the weight on your shoulders and like I say, this weight is very subjective. What is a light burden for me could be a huge burden for you, right. It’s very, very subject. So that's where this state of exception happens. You can’t do anything else. You feel you lost control of everything, and depression kicks in there at least chronically. Where you feel disappointment, you start blaming yourself. You know, oh it's raining outside, it’s my fault.

Michael: Well I wasn't gonna test say, but Jorge yeah, it is your fault.

Jorge: So there's an unacceptability of self, and that's where suicidal thoughts begin and it is an existential problem. And usually…

Michael: I think a lot of it comes back to should feeling ashamed you know and ashamed its root is the belief that you don't deserve to exist which of course means to suicide.

Jorge: Yeah, the paths to suicide are so different for every person that it is impossible to say. It's only because of shame, it’s only because of depression, it’s only because of this and not because there are too many if factors, but shame does play a role. And it was interesting when I was talking to my friend the doctor here.

Michael: yeah

Jorge: He was explaining to me that there is a will wired up with a fight or flee response when it comes to problems, right that's very well known. So this doesn't come to say when somebody committed suicide, hey you know what? That was a core thing to do, the easy way out. I don’t know if you’ve heard that.

Michael: yeah

Jorge: That’s actually true. According to my friend, this is actually their fight response. That’s their last resort. They don't know how to deal with it, and it takes a lot of courage to do it. It’s the fight response, so it is not actually cowardice. It is a shot of adrenaline, and cortisol, and everything you would get when you're fighting. So, that is…

Michael: corrected inwards

Jorge: Yeah, there could be…

Michael: Fighting themselves

Jorge: That sign of desperation.

Michael: right

Jorge: There's… they don’t know what else they could do. And like you say, there's an emotional factor of this. And people usually don't talk about it because when you're depressed, you get this feeling that there is something mentally wrong with you. I was talking to my… I have a cousin that was presenting this behavior; suicidal behavior. He was diagnosed with schizophrenia. It's one of the high risk groups because since he was like 13 years old, he abused drugs heavily. So like 18, he had tried everything and he diagnosed with schizophrenia, and during his medications, he would have small bursts of lucid types where he was a normal guy, you could talk to him, and he could see how he felt. That there was something terribly wrong with him and he didn’t know how to deal with it. And he was feeling ashamed.

Like I was mentioned to you before, it's not long ago that we call treatment centers madhouses, and things like that. So there's some stigma around it. He didn't want anybody to know he had schizophrenia because he was like you know, what are they going to say about my sisters and their sons that they can inherit this. And there is such a stigma and afraid of people rejecting and talking bad about that. But once someone shows up in this case me saying, “Hey, I'm not going to judge you, you know, here to help you.” Then he opened up and start sharing things, everything about himself. Once they see the opportunity to share, it's like they explode. They're so full of stuff inside that they want to share, that they’re suffering. Whenever they see the opportunity, they just burst. They take everything out and you’re like, “Wow! You've been dealing with this by yourself? I’m so sorry, didn’t notice before.” But it’s all about caring.

Michael: And it's not like you have to solve their problem. You can… just listening and being empathetic can really help.

Jorge: That is actually so true. I mean the emotional part of depression for example is the treatment for that or the best treatment is understanding and supporting. At the end of the day, you cannot cure that person. You cannot prevent him completely from killing himself. He may end up doing it. But the best way to treat the emotional part of depression is understanding them and supporting them, and being there. And open yourself up so they can share things with you. There's also the cognitive part of the treatment or how you can address this person.

So you can give them a structure to make decisions to solve their problems. Somebody could get for example depressed because they've lost a job and they have an economic crisis. So you kind of you know, “Hey, this is what you count with, maybe if you sell your house, or if you sell this, or if you do that.” You help them understand that none of it is their fault, and you give them a structure so they can make decisions. Sometimes, their thoughts are just scrambled eggs and they cannot make up their minds. So, you can help them. There's the physiologic part of it. One of them is for example sleeping well, doing exercise.

Michael: yeah

Jorge: I started actually…

Michael: I wrote down some things for the show notes that can help anyone who is feeling depressed. Yes, sleep is definitely… really helps.

Jorge: Yes, move muscular, you could teach them how to relax and release energy into… exactly where exercises come from massages and everything. And out of course, there’s a spiritual part of that that I think supersedes everything else. Like I said, my personal belief is that we all have a gut-given will to live. And if you don't believe in God, death can be daunting and by itself can be depressive. That’s my personally believe of course.

But if you think about it every minute, 100 people die. Every hour that’s 6,000 people. So at the end of a year, 54 million people die at the end of each year. So that's kind of the depressing. It's like I'm looking at a picture of my family, I'm like, you know what? My great grandfather died, my grandfather is dead, my parents are alive, but they're probably going to die. And that means I’m gonna die right after that. So that can be really depressing. And depression is the second leading thing in death from now among the youth before accidents.

Michael: really

Jorge: And if you see interviews, in case studies done to the youth about this. They're experiencing depression. They sometimes cannot explain why they're feeling depressed. Exactly like what we've been talking. It's like they feel there's something wrong in this kind of… there is an epidemic of suicide among the young I would say. And there are half a million suicide attempts in the US, 44,000 deaths in the earliest they’re bikes suicide.

Michael: Isn't I don't know the exact statistics, but I want to say suicide is one of the leading causes of death in the United States. It's not the top one but…

Jorge: yah

Michael: [Inaudible] [31:50]

Jorge: Yeah, I could say top ten, or 15 possibly.

Michael: Particularly among people who've been in the military. If they've been in… They've got P.T.S.D. – post-traumatic stress disorder.

Jorge: Oh yeah, veterans.

Michael: More soldiers die through suicide than die through bullets.

Jorge: Yeah, that is actually an issue, veterans.

Michael: Like three times as many you know.

Jorge: pretty awful

Michael: Not like… Yeah, it's very common the veterans commit suicide. So if you've been in the military, or you know someone who has this… what we're talking about here. And I know some CFers who've been in the military and have some P.T.S.D., and it’s serious shit.

Jorge: Yeah, it is. And at the end of the day, I used to watch Larry King for some reason because my grandmother. And he was saying once, “Hey, you know what? I cannot stand the thought of non-existence.” That is a depressing he said, [inaudible] you know what it is. If there's even you know exists or anything after you died, then life is futile. So, every single human being is been held prisoner to their fear of death all their life, yeah. So it's like they're enslaved, and actually not wanting to die. It's the most normal, most sane human feeling that you can have to want to preserve your most precious possession. Life is precious and that's something people forget because people is being taught that they are the result of mindless, unguided random process with no sense of purpose. And…

Michael: You only have to have… Whether you believe in God or not, you only have to go out for a walk in the mountains, or the woods, or do some exercise or whatever it is to come back to this connection with life.

Jorge: yeah

Michael: Or sometimes, live humans and talk instead of staring at your screen on your phone.

Jorge: Yeah, you would… It's easy like you say to understand, to get a grasp of the value of life. And to put in practical [crosstalk], I can ask you for example: would you sell your eye for 1,000,000 dollars Michael? Would you sell one eye for 1,000,000 dollars?

Michael: I’ll say no, no.

Jorge: Would you sell both eyes for 100,000,000 dollars?

Michael: No, no doesn't appeal. I mean and I'm not sure there's a money amount you could get to you know.

Jorge: Yeah, so how much more worth does a life that looks from those windows our pasts? It's like it’s invaluable. It doesn't happen. Cannot put a value to it about anything, and every person is unique. And you should cherish life, and we all go through difficulties. We just… people have different thresholds, and different resources to deal with them. But nobody's alone. We are social beings and we were meant to carry our burdens; in a group, as friends, as human beings. We have the responsibility.

Michael: I think it's a good thing to do to help other people out. I mean if you ever do, even in that situation a friend of yours, or a developer, or family member is depressed, or is talking about suicide. If you do something, you're going to feel a lot better about it. So, let's just talk about that because we talked a lot about people who have depression, suicide. What about if you were in a situation that you’re a friend of someone, another developer, or a family member who's depressed, or anxious, or suicidal.

Jorge: Yeah, kind of the quiz at the beginning was a little bit of the guidelines you need to follow. Once you see the warnings. You never discard a warning as something that other person is just trying to call attention; never do that. And if you're in that, you can miss your window. So this is all about time [inaudible] [36:41]. Because life goes on for everybody; for people doing well, for people doing badly. And for those doing badly, irreversible things can happen that they’re don't wanna regret. And people tend to be spectators. People like to be spectators. They are too busy being selfish, and thinking about themselves. And I use that word selfish because that’s kind of how the world is built about right now. Everything is about your dreams, and your goals, and what you can achieve; your health, and your productivity, and that's how the story line of the world is set.

You ought to be… so that everything revolves around you and your preferences, and your feelings, and everything. Well, you need to start looking outside of that. For me, true joy is being able to impact somebody else's life in a positive way. True joy comes from that. But you need to first of all start caring about that. Because if you don't start caring about other people's needs, then you’re not going to notice somebody was about to commit suicide because you're not… your antennas are not set up to detect those signals. You need to be aware, that's the first thing. You need to set up your mind and say, “Hey there's people struggling.” Even if you're struggling yourself, there is a lot of good things that can come up from helping somebody else. I remember hearing about just saying, you know what the best treatment for depression is?

Open your door, step out, close the door, lock it. And look to the other side of the street and see who needs help, and you help them. That's the best treatment for depression. So people around other people need to be aware that this is an issue. It's a serious issue. It's an epidemic. Suicide is there, it's real, and it can happen to anybody. And people actually living with suicidal thoughts are not going to go directly to you sometimes and say, “Hey, I want to kill myself. They’re gonna send sometimes secret messages, or behavior and in a way that could suggest they could do it. But you're not going to detect that if you’re not really paying attention. So whenever you meet with anybody, or with somebody, keep in mind that there are human beings, and they're probably struggling.

It would be safe to make that assumption. And be aware of that, of those early signs, or later signs when people are around you. In my case for example, this guy… We were trained this guy that committed suicide unfortunately. The way we had set up the training to happen, there was no way we could detect that. We do a presentation. What’s your name, what’s everything, and then we do the work. And that’s it, good bye. But now that we're aware of that, we're changing the structure to at least at the end, share a message about this. Not make it around this, but say you know what? We know this is real. If you’re experiencing something like that, here are the resources. You can contact this line or anything like that, or you can shoot us an e-mail. This issue is there, so be aware. They’ll be a mail that we share with the people in general.

Michael: That's a great suggestion. I'm so glad you've changed your training courses to open that up a bit. If it helps even one person or this podcast episode helps one person who's depressed or suicidal, I think we've achieved something.

Jorge: Yeah, most definitely.

Michael: So, I’ve got a tough question to ask you. But I'm not sure if now is a good time.

Jorge: It's always a good time because you don't know if I'm going to be alive.

Michael: I hope you are.

Jorge: I hope so too, but life is unpredictable. So, shoot it.

Michael: So, when you found out this developer had killed himself, how did you feel?

Jorge: I felt disappoint. I remember sending a message to [inaudible] immediately when I found out saying, “How could we miss it?” I mean there's no… I mean there value in what we do as a company, we build software. We actually build solutions for clients. We provide value for them, everything you want. But there is no transcendent goal [inaudible] that for us. I mean transcendental things are way above that. It's about helping others with their lives. And if the most precious thing was lost… I mean in my mind, I was saying, it is impossible you could have done anything about it; justify myself. But there was a part of me that was… we’re small but we’re strong saying, “You could have done something if you were paying attention.” So I felt deception, disappointment, and just sad.

Michael: yeah

Jorge: but I…

Michael: Did you get some help and support yourself or?

Jorge: Like I said, we all use the resources we have. And one of the resources I have is my faith. So, I have never used up that resource; never. It's like it is inexhaustible. So, it will always pick me up, and show me the way, and show me the purpose, and lead me. That's basically what happens with me all the time.

Michael: yeah

Jorge: I’m really thankful for it.

Michael: Yeah, great thing. So, if someone listening has had a friend who killed themselves certainly, if they have any religious or spiritual belief that can help reaching out to their friends. There are support groups that you can call too. You know if you're not… if you don't have that spiritual beliefs, there are still things you can do. So maybe it's time to share some… one of the resources. We’ll stick some other resources into the show notes. But you investigated one that’s available. Tell us about that.

Jorge: Yes, it’s called the ‘Suicide Prevention Lifeline’. It is free, it is completely confidential, and it's available for you to call 24/7. Should I say the number? Should I mention the number?

Michael: absolutely!

Jorge: Okay, so the number is 8002738255, or you can visit their website which is suicidepreventionlifeline.org. And they're available to support anybody who is dealing with depression, or suicidal thoughts. And I tried it already. I gave them a call, let them know why I was calling because not everything you see in the internet is true obviously. So I mean it's tested out. So you can try it and… But more importantly, if you're dealing with depression, if you're dealing with suicidal thoughts, please know that there is nothing wrong with you.

I mean you… Life is precious and what you're going through is temporary; completely temporary. Emotions come and go, problems come and go, and there's a way out of it. But it's not the one you're thinking about. So whatever you do, please, please I beg you, do not take your own life. It's a permanent solution for a temporary problem; remember that.

Michael: Yeah, it would sort of be, not to make light of this. But it would be sort of like if you had a bug in your program say taking out a hammer and smashing the laptop because you had a bug in the program. Kind of does solve the problem, but it's not really the best way to deal with it. It's better to debug the code and the same thing with depression or anxiety. There are things you can do that can solve this. You don't have to destroy.

Jorge: Yeah, and do not isolate yourself. It’s very important. So whatever reason, never draw yourself into isolation, that's only going to make things worse.

Michael: yeah

Jorge: There's always somebody there to listen to you; maybe not immediately. Depending on your situation. But there's always a relative, there’s always a friend, a counselor, or a professional counselor, a doctor, a colleague. There's always somebody willing to listen.

Michael: Yeah, the other thing I would say is don't use an addiction to cover up the depression or feelings. I used to do that when I was younger. I'd go and have a beer to cover up feeling I had, or I’d watch a whole bunch of TV to cover up feeling depressed or you know all… I mean humans have so many addictions we use to cover these things up.

Jorge: yeah

Michael: You know whether it's food, or shopping, or alcohol, or drugs or…

Jorge: It's interesting you mentioned that Michael because actually, one of the risk groups that this doctor shared with me is actually people have an issue with alcoholism, or drug addiction. He actually used a term that caught my attention that was a prolonged, or extended suicide; something like that. You’re actually killing yourself slowly.

Michael: sure

Jorge: It's a different way of achieving suicide, but in a long term. So people do not tend to think of it as suicide. But if it's hurting yourself, there's some factors there to suggest you're actually trying to commits suicide, but in a prolonged way. It's not always the case. Sometimes, it is always at a subconscious level, but this self-destruction, destructive behavior; it is deeply related to suicidal thoughts.

Michael: Yeah, well and I drank plenty of alcohol in my time. I stopped drinking it about nine years ago but because I was probably drinking more than was wise. And it was getting in the way of my spiritual connection as well. That was the real reason I gave it up. In retrospect, I can see I had a little bit of an issue with that and… You know alcohol is a depressant. It makes you more depressed. I mean we think it's something to make you happy, but really, it actually acts as a depressant. It really doesn't. If you’re depressed that start with drinking really doesn't help in my personal experience.

Jorge: But that's definitely. Just so people don't get confused on there. Because alcohol is a depressant actually all the drugs that are kind of contrary like cocaine which kind of contracts that depressed effect of alcoholism, or alcohol. That doesn't mean an addiction to that type of junk can lead to depression as well because at the end of the day, it's an addiction. And it's a temporary effect of the actual drug.

Michael: yeah

Jorge: But at least the psychoactive part of it. But the side effects yes, and your body, and your psyche, those are the real issues. Those are the ones that independently of any drug you’re taking, it could lead you to some serious issues.

Michael: Yeah, and there’s one other addiction I forgot to mention which is workaholism. Where you’re just are obsessed with working and you never take a break. And some of us in the ColdFusion community have that one too.

Jorge: I'm actually elated about a little bit. I relate to that a little bit Michael, it’s all truth.

Michael: Yeah, and that doesn't mean is not… There's nothing wrong with working hard if you're passionate about some coding project, or whatever you do. The point is if you're using it to cover up pain, or depression, or anxiety.

Jorge: That's true. It's all about balance. We have problems of course, but you know what's this no matter what we talk about, is healthy thing.

Michael: Yeah, so I know you've got a time constraint, and I think we've covered all the things. But I do want to ask you… I know you're going to C.F. Summit, right? Is that true or?

Jorge: I am going to C.F. Summit, yes.

Michael: So usually, I ask my guests what are you looking forward to at the conference. And I can certainly ask you that Jorge, if you like.

Jorge: yes sure

Michael: I also have a more important second question.

Jorge: Okay, do you want me [crosstalk]

Michael: What are you really looking forward to? And then, I'll land the second question on you.

Jorge: Well, this is actually my first time there. I have always followed C.F. Summit remotely. I did… well [inaudible] [52:35] takes care of that, and Brad and they're all based in the U.S.

Michael: So, is he speaking this year I think?

Jorge: Yes, speaking this year. Brad is also speaking this year.

Michael: yeah

Jorge: So I have no expectations in terms of previous experiences. But I'm looking forward to meet people who haven't seen the light. So I kind of evangelize them. And by that I mean leaving legacy hell. Those people there are held prisoners in the man-made legacy cages, and I want to help them. I really want to help them [inaudible] [53:15] help them because leaving a legacy hell is the absolute worst. And I've seen how people move away from it and how that changes even in their personal life because there is a sanity factor there when you … legacy.

Because if see it this way, you're always going to have restrictions no matter what you do, in whatever you do. But people dealing with none legacy or modern apps. They probably have to deal with restrictions of budget, management, intentions, or whatever. But legacy apps, they are limited by their own [inaudible]. And it’s… that could be madness. It's like sticking to a rotary phone instead of using a smart phone. Why would you do that, why, tell me? This smart phone has a camera, it has apps, from social media, online shopping, chatting, calendars, alarms.

I mean why… how do call a person… Not that I’m [inaudible]. But how would you call a person that prefers to use the rotary phones over a smart phone? I don’t even know. And now, you put it into a business perspective. You're not answering calls from your grandmother. You're actually trying to make a living at that rotary phone. So you need to put it to work and make it work in a profitable way. So if you cannot harness any of the goodness that is out there today with modern technologies, web libraries, marginal, tooling; whatever you want. You're actually spending more time trying to emulate the same function on it that you would get off the bat from what's already there. I will go insane to tell you the truth. So that's what I'm looking forward for C.F. Summit. Meeting people that are in need and offer them our help out of the situation there.

Michael: That's fabulous! So here's my more serious deeper question. I haven’t asked anyone else. I'm gonna ask you which… We've talked about this suicide and depression thing. What are you doing at C.F. Summit in relation to that? And if someone knows someone who's depressed or suicidal, or they themselves are, can they go to C.F. Summit? Can they say hello to you or?

Jorge: Yes, of course, and I’m actually… We’re printing some flyers though we’re gonna have at the [inaudible]. And unfortunately, didn't… so we didn’t do topics for C.F. Summit. I didn't know I was attending until… I had plans to go from the beginning, but I wasn't confirmed until probably a of couple weeks ago. So I didn’t have a slot there to openly speak about it. But I'm bringing a flyer with me that we will be sharing at [inaudible] [56:33]. And I'm always open for people around me to approach me to talk about this. And the most important thing for them to know is that they're not going to be judged, they're not going to be… nothing is gonna happen, but them being heard by somebody who cares and that goes for the entire industry.

Michael: That is a great gift that you are doing there providing. So, if people want to find you online, how would they do that?

Jorge: They can shoot me an email, or they can use slack CFML [inaudible] community in there. It’s J … and I can have them to their resources. They can send a message there. And I can then give them my phone for those who are actually interested in talking to me.

Michael: Yeah, we’ll put it in the show notes along with your Twitter and website [inaudible] solutions.com. Well, I really appreciate you talking about this issue on the podcast. I know it's been you know it's an emotional issue. It's a little tough to talk about. But I think it can help a lot of people to start this conversation. Maybe it'll save some lives. Certainly save some pain people are going through on their own when they really they can get some help.

Jorge: Yeah, I truly hope so though. This can help somebody out there strongly thinking there's no exit, thinking that they're at the end of their rope, but they're not; very not. Crises are subjective, and there's always a solution.

Michael: Well, thanks for being on the C.F. Alive podcast, Jorge.

Jorge: All right Michael, thank you for your time, and for your invitation.