One method you may want to check into is this: if you see that 1 priest is serving a large number of parishes (there's an instance of this that comes to mind in Alberta, where 1 priest is listed for 5 or more), you should probably reduce that number to 1 (as if all those parishes were combined into one).

In light of the ongoing thread concerning Metropolitan Methodios and jurisdictional overlap, I thought I'd revive this thread, as it had Cleveland's excellent discussion of what would go into adminstratively working out the problems with overlap (and probably being the sole thread on this forum about unity that didn't manage to turn into a discussion about culture).

« Last Edit: March 31, 2008, 01:45:02 PM by Veniamin »

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From the beginning I should note that this proposal would be possible either by being autocephalous, autonomous from Constantinople, or autonomous from New York. Also, I used the Slavic usage of styling hierarchs, (i.e. Metropolitan, Archbishop, Bishop, Vicar Bishop) not the Greek. In many cases, I borrowed from my own jurisdiction, as it is of those in Canada, the only jurisdiction self-contained in Canada answering direct to Constantinople.

Canadian demographics do not allow for an even distribution of parishes among the dioceses. Each diocese corresponds easily into geographical boundaries except in Ontario, with the Diocese of York and the Diocese of Ontario. The Diocese of York, being the Greater Toronto area has 2 Cathedrals, 37 Parishes, 8 Missions and 2 Monastic Communities. As a result, the Diocese is the largest in the country with 4 Cathedrals, 56 Parishes, 12 Missions, and 2 Monastic Communities.

Metropolitan of Canada, Archbishop of Winnipeg and the Central DioceseArchbishop of Edmonton and the Diocese of AlbertaArchbishop of Vancouver and the Diocese of British Columbia and the NorthArchbishop of Ottawa and the Diocese of OntarioArchbishop of Montreal and the Diocese of the EastArchbishop of Toronto and the Diocese of YorkBishop of Saskatoon, Vicar Bishop of the Central DioceseBishop of Calgary (Future), Vicar Bishop of the Diocese of AlbertaBishop of Kamloops (Future), Vicar Bishop of British Columbia and the NorthBishop of Hamilton, Vicar Bishop of the Diocese of OntarioBishop of Mississauga (Future), Vicar Bishop of the Diocese of YorkBishop of Halifax (Future), Vicar Bishop of the EastBishop of Windsor, Publications and CommunicationsBishop of Toronto, President of Toronto Orthodox Theological AcademyBishop of Regina, Domestic and Overseas Missions

So the Synod would at some point, have 15 hierarchs. Those marked “Future,” are locations which do not currently have a Cathedral. I realize the number is high, but I wanted to give all Cathedrals a Bishop, and really if all the jurisdictions work together, it would be justified. Additionally, Canada is more spread out and this allows for the workload to distributed more evenly.

In terms of monastic communities, although every diocese has at least one, the Diocese of the Midwest and the Diocese of Alberta both do not have a full monastery but rather hermitages, sketes or the like. Give that the desire is to have hierarchs come from the diocese itself, this needs to change.

In terms of the Prairie provinces, the Church should also begin a large sacel permanent deacon program, in order to rejuvenate the tiny country churches. This program would be the keystone of the Church’s mission work in Canada.

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I think that while the GOA model might have had the possibility of working (Ligonier), it is clear the EP will not allow it. It may take all of the bishops who met at the Antiochian HQ a few weeks ago to find another way.

As long as GOA dominates with numbers and $$$$$, expect the EP to accept the jurisdictional status quo as He convinces other jurisdictions to go under His omophorion. Notice the GOA Billionaire who gave $5 Million to HCHC - can any of the other jurisdictions publicly match that kind of financial clout?

As long as GOA dominates with numbers and $$$$$, expect the EP to accept the jurisdictional status quo as He convinces other jurisdictions to go under His omophorion. Notice the GOA Billionaire who gave $5 Million to HCHC - can any of the other jurisdictions publicly match that kind of financial clout?

If OCA and other jurisdictions gain numerical and $$$$$ advantage, then unity could become more practical since the numbers will even each other out.

It is possible that other jurisdictions will gain the numbers...and possibly have an evangelical fervor that the GOA is still not up to speed with yet. I have been in the Antiochian Archdiocese my whole life and I can honestly say that I can feel the acceleration of faith and mission picking up speed with each passing year. Also, if the idea of tithing becomes a central part of funding in a growing archdiocese you can bet more things will happen like Ancient Faith Radio. We won't have to rely on just a few wealthy Arab families to set up funding foundations when we will have whole parishes tithing and doing mission work.

I think that while the GOA model might have had the possibility of working (Ligonier), it is clear the EP will not allow it. It may take all of the bishops who met at the Antiochian HQ a few weeks ago to find another way.

I don't think "won't allow it" is accurate... maybe "won't allow it on the terms we dictate" is a better one.

As long as GOA dominates with numbers and $$$$$, expect the EP to accept the jurisdictional status quo as He convinces other jurisdictions to go under His omophorion. Notice the GOA Billionaire who gave $5 Million to HCHC - can any of the other jurisdictions publicly match that kind of financial clout?

How many members does the GOA by marriage each year as opposed to the Antiochians and OCA through converts? I wonder.

Even if the GOA is getting no new members, they are somewhat more accurate in their reporting. The OCA claims a million but has 20,000 members that commune regularly (1/50 what they claim in other words). The Antiochians claim 500,000 but had 48,000 the last time I asked someone from the chancery (one tenth). The GOA on the other hand claims 2 million but has about 400,000 actual members (1/5).

The idea that the OCA and Antiochians even united could push the GOA in any direction is a bit naive in my opinion.

I think the Orthodox in America will be ready for unity and autocephaly sometime around 2100 to 2150.

I believe I addressed the topic based on my understanding of unity. There are more GOA parishioners than the other jurisdictions combined. The GOA is also wealthier than the other jurisdictions; I dare not say combined because there are wealthy US Orthodox in other jurisdictions as well. While the EP has the Archons and the Antiochians have the Order of St. Ignatius, I'm not sure what the other jurisdictions have if anything.

There are more GOA parishioners than the other jurisdictions combined. The GOA is also wealthier than the other jurisdictions;

You might want to check your facts. While there are 542 parishes listed in the GOA database I wouldn't call all of them parishes. The OCA has well over that number in just their diocese parishes (close to 575) and then there are 135 parishes in the ethnic vicariates that exist in the OCA system. If you add the 266 that the Antiochian Archdioceses has you come up with a number that is nearly double the size of the GOA and that is just 2 of the dozen or so jurisdiction that exist outside the GOA.

As for wealth, I would not be holding up the GOA who is still struggling with the effects of being millions of dollars in debt after Archbishop Spyridon's reign as Archbishop. A bigger budget doesn't always equate to larger wealth.

Another cleveland vs Tamara rivalry! The gloves are OFF people! And to think, tickets are free!

I hate to disappoint you Deacon Anastasios but don't think we are too far apart on what we believe with Orthodox unity. I agree with much that Cleveland has written on Orthodox unity. But I just don't see the EP showing any interest in forming one Orthodox Church in America, whether that would be the best model or not. I think the jurisdictions who are independent of the EP will be the ones to lead. I think they may come up with a model which will work. SCOBA isn't becoming a North American synod and the OCA is in turmoil. Another way has to be found. I believe it will be multi-jurisdictional plan that will provide a new way. Let the Holy Spirit show us the way is what I say..

You might want to check your facts. While there are 542 parishes listed in the GOA database I wouldn't call all of them parishes. The OCA has well over that number in just their diocese parishes (close to 575) and then there are 135 parishes in the ethnic vicariates that exist in the OCA system. If you add the 266 that the Antiochian Archdioceses has you come up with a number that is nearly double the size of the GOA and that is just 2 of the dozen or so jurisdiction that exist outside the GOA.

Well, if you're going to disqualify a number of GOA parishes because you don't think they're really parishes, we could get started on the nearly-dead OCA mining- and steel-town parishes, and the plethora of 25-50 family parishes. The numbers I provided a page ago in my breakdown not only come from the SCOBA directory system, but the OCA number includes the ethnic vicarates (Romanian, Albanian, etc.).

Each of the major jurisdictions has at least one state with 10%+ of its parishes (OCA: Alaska - 16.7%, GOA: New York - 11.5%, AOA: California - 11.8%).

The major jurisdictions only have minor holes in their national coverage. The number of states which each jurisdiction has 0 parishes: AOA - 5, OCA - 6, GOA - 1 (North Dakota).

Each jurisdiction is contributing a number of hierarchs proportionate to its population, except the OCA which seems to have more hierarchs per person than the others by a large degree, and the Antiochians (who are growing quickly). The number of Ruling Hierarchs: AOA - 7, GOA - 9, OCA - 9, Serbian - 3, Ukranian - 3 (oops, now 2), Romanian - 2, and the others 1 each. Only the GOA (2) and the OCA (2) have auxiliary bishops.

As for wealth, I would not be holding up the GOA who is still struggling with the effects of being millions of dollars in debt after Archbishop Spyridon's reign as Archbishop. A bigger budget doesn't always equate to larger wealth.

Eh, the debt is manageable. I still don't think it's a pertinent part of this discussion, but oh well.

Unfortunately, what is not manageable are all the lawsuits hitting the GOA and OCA due to clergy sex abuse cases (ex:Katinas, Blummentritt, etc many others). The GOA may have alot of wealthy patrons but the cases that provoke these lawsuits will eat away at the church. There have to be a better ways of dealing with these problems.

As for wealth, I would not be holding up the GOA who is still struggling with the effects of being millions of dollars in debt after Archbishop Spyridon's reign as Archbishop. A bigger budget doesn't always equate to larger wealth.

GOA will claim at upcoming Clergy-Laity Conference that their net worth is now $15-$25 Million thanks to donations made by Archons and Leadership 100 to pay off the debt.

There's a 10 page list of Archons published in the 2008 GOA Yearbook. Many of those names are millionaires. A few are even billionaires. EP/GOA has plenty of wealth available at their disposal; I will not speculate on how such donations are made.

Unfortunately, what is not manageable are all the lawsuits hitting the GOA and OCA due to clergy sex abuse cases (ex:Katinas, Blummentritt, etc many others). The GOA may have alot of wealthy patrons but the cases that provoke these lawsuits will eat away at the church. There have to be a better ways of dealing with these problems.

At one point earlier this decade, 2 sex abuse suits would have been enough to bankrupt the GOA. Note how many RC dioceses have gone into bankruptcy due to the sex abuse settlements.

Unfortunately, what is not manageable are all the lawsuits hitting the GOA and OCA due to clergy sex abuse cases (ex:Katinas, Blummentritt, etc many others). The GOA may have alot of wealthy patrons but the cases that provoke these lawsuits will eat away at the church. There have to be a better ways of dealing with these problems.

They've been working on it. One of the good things that came out of our trip to the Archdiocese as seniors was insight into the process they're using to investigate all allegations of misconduct. The two hurdles they still have to overcome that will be tough in the upcoming years are the cases that came up during the period when they weren't sensitized to the problem, and the cases where our hierarchs want to be merciful on the offenders. The latter issue came up already with Katinas' case. Fortunately there are a good number of people who see the (relatively new) process and support it, and have supported the Archdiocese financially to offset debts incurred in the litigation.

I still don't see wealth of parishioners as being a discussion germane to the subject of North American Unity.

There's a 10 page list of Archons published in the 2008 GOA Yearbook. Many of those names are millionaires. A few are even billionaires. EP/GOA has plenty of wealth available at their disposal; I will not speculate on how such donations are made.

The most wealthy donor to the EP is the Government of Greece - trust me, the Archons have nothing on them. As for the GOA - we do have kind-hearted folks who donate, some from their plenty, some from their little.

Political Independence that was not tied to administrative unity within the country? I still don't see the relevance.

The explanation for lack of US Orthodox Unity lies in the history of how modern Greece freed herself from Ottoman rule only to find herself ruled by German Kings who didn't care one iota about the Orthodox faith. In 1922, Greece tried to take over Asia Minor with disasterous results in the next to last attempt to resurrect the Byzantine Empire under German Kings. The final attempt was Cyprus in 1974.

I'm taking a geopolitical approach to the unity problem because the Orthodox do not have a secular instution in the Vatican.

The explanation for lack of US Orthodox Unity lies in the history of how modern Greece freed herself from Ottoman rule only to find herself ruled by German Kings who didn't care one iota about the Orthodox faith. In 1922, Greece tried to take over Asia Minor with disasterous results in the next to last attempt to resurrect the Byzantine Empire under German Kings. The final attempt was Cyprus in 1974.

I'm taking a geopolitical approach to the unity problem because the Orthodox do not have a secular instution in the Vatican.

Worse, we have a captive patriarch. Much of his antics of late mirror those of the pope of Rome during similar (though less dire) circumstances during the Dark Ages, during which what we find so objectionable about the Vatican developed.

Actually more likely to happen without GOA money. The recent article on the donation to the seminary noted that it was because of the promotion of Orthodoxy AND Hellenism (not even Greek culture).

« Last Edit: May 27, 2008, 12:59:24 PM by ialmisry »

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The OCA model is not really the best model for unity. We could say the primate rule with Synodal approval is a good model, but the OCA still has far too much papal resemblance in it's administrators to seriously be considered an American model.

What we need for an American Orthodox Model is:

1) An American Patriarch (sorry the EP 1000 some miles away doesn't fit this bill)

2) a Synod made up of the heads of the OCA, GOA, AOAA, etc. under the Patriarch. (essentially make the different jurisdictions into "diocese")

3) The elimination of ethnic nationalism (e.g. I don't want to be ruled by a greek bishop or I don't like the serbian bishop, I want a russian bishop)

4) Separate the Church/Theological/Liturgical functions from the business functions. In other words, run the liturgical portion of the church like a church with the priest/bishop/patriarch in charge and run the business portion of the church like maintenance, finance, membership administration, etc like a business with the Parish Council acting as the board of directors and the clergy only having a vote on matters, not oversight. Don't let priests make the budget, sign checks, have access to accounting records with the ability to change data, etc.

Those are what I think are necessary to make the idea of an American Orthodox Church even remotely plausible.

His predecessors were captives (and ethnarchs) under the Ottomans. There's a Mosaic of Sultan Mehmet bestowing the title of ethnarch to the first Patriarch elected after the fall of Constantinople. There was no Enlightenment in 1456. Many of the Patriarchs remained faithful to the ministry of Christ - up until the influence of the Enlightened Pharnariotes.

Much of his antics of late mirror those of the pope of Rome during similar (though less dire) circumstances during the Dark Ages, during which what we find so objectionable about the Vatican developed.

I'm not aware of any anti-Patriarchs who would oppose Patr. Bartholomew. Patr. Alexei is definitely not an anti-Patriarch.

Modern Greece is still split between Church of Greece and EP because Church of Greece received autocephaly when more than half the country remained under Ottoman Rule; hence, EP jurisdiction. Church of Greece and EP now have concurrent jurisdiction over the rest of modern Greece.

Actually more likely to happen without GOA money. The recent article on the donation to the seminary noted that it was because of the promotion of Orthodoxy AND Hellenism (not even Greek culture).

Hellenism is ancient Greece as romanticized by Enlightenment thinkers. The ancestors of the Ottomans were somewhere in China during the Age of Pericles. Wow, now I know why the EP and MP are fighting over China because the same problems impacting US Orthodox Unity will affect Orthodoxy in Asia.

First, it's my understanding that the structure of the OCA, to its credit. was never intended as a final "model", but only as a temporary operating mechanism until these issues are resolved inter-church.Second, I need a better definition of the current "model" for both the OCA and GOA as used here to make any sense of this thread.

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"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

First, it's my understanding that the structure of the OCA, to its credit. was never intended as a final "model", but only as a temporary operating mechanism until these issues are resolved inter-church.Second, I need a better definition of the current "model" for both the OCA and GOA as used here to make any sense of this thread.

Yes. Maybe we should say the model of the Metropolia, not the OCA. The Metropolia operated as a diocese of the Russian Church, but the idea was that it would one day become independent. It also had auxiliary bishops (not sure if that was their technical title, St. Rafail was the one for the Arabs, and the first Orthodox bishop ordained in the New World) to handle the recent immigrants (somewhat what the Albanians, Bulgarians, and Romanians have now. During the Cold War it outlived its use, as the immigrants dried up. That's changed now), the idea was that a native synod would arise from that.

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Worse, we have a captive patriarch. Much of his antics of late mirror those of the pope of Rome during similar (though less dire) circumstances during the Dark Ages, during which what we find so objectionable about the Vatican developed.

Really, you think so? Start a thread on this, and let's see you develop your line of thinking on this.

1) An American Patriarch (sorry the EP 1000 some miles away doesn't fit this bill)

I still think this is unnecessary to American Jurisdictional Unity. You can have an autocephalous church without a Patriarch. You can have an Autonomous Church that is truly administratively united. And God help us if proximity is a disqualifier, since the people in NY have no clue about what life is like in California - I've seen and heard it firsthand.

Hellenism is ancient Greece as romanticized by Enlightenment thinkers.

No, real Hellenism is 1700 years of Christian Hellenic Culture that flourished. Christianity's sanctifying effect is to perfect what existed before and make it truly whole (Holy Water, blessing of the loaves, blessing of food at Pascha). True Hellenism is Christian Hellenism.

No, real Hellenism is 1700 years of Christian Hellenic Culture that flourished. Christianity's sanctifying effect is to perfect what existed before and make it truly whole (Holy Water, blessing of the loaves, blessing of food at Pascha). True Hellenism is Christian Hellenism.

So, Hellenism came into its own after St. Constantine made Orthodox Christianity the official religion of a now defunct Empire which has not existed for almost 6 Centuries? By his conversion, St. Constantine succeeded, where Alexander the Great had failed 6 centuries earlier, in spreading Hellenic culture throughout the world, including the heterogeneous USA?

No wonder there will never be North American Orthodox Christian Unity.

Definition of Hellenism:a body of humanistic and classical ideals associated with ancient Greece and including reason, the pursuit of knowledge and the arts, moderation, civic responsibility, and bodily development

Based on the above definition, that would describe AHEPA rather than Holy Water, blessing of loaves and blessing of food at Pascha.

I still think this is unnecessary to American Jurisdictional Unity. You can have an autocephalous church without a Patriarch. You can have an Autonomous Church that is truly administratively united. And God help us if proximity is a disqualifier, since the people in NY have no clue about what life is like in California - I've seen and heard it firsthand.

That's true, except a trip from New York to California commonly occurs for around $400 or less. Does the EP hop on a plane for $400 or less? If I recall correctly, the EP has only visited the US twice in the existence of the church in America. Further, an American Patriarch would eliminate the fact that:

1) The EP is under "house arrest" in a primarily non-christian country2) Is not permitted to travel in public wearing any clerical identification3) Is required to be a Turkish citizen (eliminating a large number of possible candidates)4) Would be able to minister to more than the 2000 people he currently has in Turkey.

Worse, we have a captive patriarch. Much of his antics of late mirror those of the pope of Rome during similar (though less dire) circumstances during the Dark Ages, during which what we find so objectionable about the Vatican developed

why would the GOA model DEFINITELY not work? I have always thought it is the most realistic. Perhaps we differ on the use of the term "model."

Let's use the extreme example in Sweden, so to make it clear:

In Sweden the various ethnic groups got together and set up a national Orthodox organization, and placed it in the hands of the EP. What did he do? Make it into the Hellenic (not Greek) Orthodox exarchate, and tell the other, disenfranchised groups to set up their own national ghettos.

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I still think this is unnecessary to American Jurisdictional Unity. You can have an autocephalous church without a Patriarch. You can have an Autonomous Church that is truly administratively united. And God help us if proximity is a disqualifier, since the people in NY have no clue about what life is like in California - I've seen and heard it firsthand.

At least they recognize it. Unlike the idea that any Greek (oops, sorry, Hellene) any where can be exchanged anywhere.

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No, real Hellenism is 1700 years of Christian Hellenic Culture that flourished. Christianity's sanctifying effect is to perfect what existed before and make it truly whole (Holy Water, blessing of the loaves, blessing of food at Pascha). True Hellenism is Christian Hellenism.

Actually, no. It was Romaic, not Hellenic (which meant "pagan")

« Last Edit: May 27, 2008, 02:46:31 PM by ialmisry »

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Is there an example of a current autocephalous Orthodox jurisdiction without a Patriarch?

Greece for one.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth