I've tried to reject this argument out of hand for a long time, but man, it has to come from somewhere. TV and video games have long been the substitute babysitters, and parents that care so little about their kids that they would exile them to TV and video games wouldn't be overly concerned about what they see or what they play. Is it so unreasonable to believe that at least some of the grotesque violence kids are exposed to regularly would have an effect on them?

No, no study, anywhere, has ever shown this.

Bad parenting, pure and simple.

So behavior is learned, but it cannot be learned from television or video games, only from bad parents or other living influences?

Yes, to an extent. Some is innate of course.

Studies have shown this. A bad parent tends to make their kids bad. Video games and TV have absolutely no effect. Studied to death. Thought you liberals were supposed to be smart, why do you ignore science? And normally, it is the idiot conservatives going all anti-TV and video game.

Adolf Oliver Nipples:TV and video games have long been the substitute babysitters, and parents that care so little about their kids that they would exile them to TV and video games wouldn't be overly concerned about what they see or what they play.

sendtodave:Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: sendtodave: Are we operating under an assumption that mammals don't know how to copulate without being taught?

No, it's the violence aspect to it. They were hurting her, they knew they were hurting her, and they told her to be quiet. And there were two of them: a brother and sister. That means it's not just one kid who's a psychopath, and they're coming from the same home.

I'd just chalk that up to "kids are horrible."

Because kids are horrible. They hurt each other all the time, just for lulz.

There is data that shows inappropriate and overt sexual behaviour displayed by very young children, is directly linked to those children having been victims of sexual molestation. The influence of tv, video games etc is, as far as I know, still just speculation by people on the internet. I've yet to see any data on that.

Thunderpipes:Thought you liberals were supposed to be smart, why do you ignore science?

Weird that I, of all people, would be asked this in this manner. I have been accused of all manner of things, from being a bleeding-heart liberal to an arch-conservative. I am neither. It's OK, you're just the most recent person to assume incorrectly, but man, it gets tiring when people try to put you in a neat little box. I am about as centrist as they come, and I reject nothing. Perhaps you would direct me to some of these studies you referenced?

cygnusx13:sendtodave: Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: sendtodave: Are we operating under an assumption that mammals don't know how to copulate without being taught?

No, it's the violence aspect to it. They were hurting her, they knew they were hurting her, and they told her to be quiet. And there were two of them: a brother and sister. That means it's not just one kid who's a psychopath, and they're coming from the same home.

I'd just chalk that up to "kids are horrible."

Because kids are horrible. They hurt each other all the time, just for lulz.

And adults don't?

Adults are the ones suggesting that in order for kids to learn not to hurt other kids, they have to be hurt by still more kids.

/yes, this actually is Fark's solution for bullies//not that these little rapists are simply bullies

Nidiot:There is data that shows inappropriate and overt sexual behaviour displayed by very young children, is directly linked to those children having been victims of sexual molestation. The influence of tv, video games etc is, as far as I know, still just speculation by people on the internet. I've yet to see any data on that.

So I'd be looking closely at what went on at home.

There is no link. Real simple reason why too. Even young children can tell the difference between reality and make believe. Not sure why people don't understand this. If we did not, and had access to the arsenals we did as kids, we all would have Tom and Jerry'd ourselves to extinction.

I haven't read the thread but is that even possible? I don't think I even got an erection until 12 years old. I know for a fact that I didn't at eight though. What the hell is going on out there these days?

LadySusan:sithon: Ambivalence: I don't even want to think about how screwed up a kid has to be in the head to rape a girl at 8 and 10 (and the sister was as much involved as the brother).

I'm going back to my happy place and I'm not coming out.

/la la la...can't hear you. they are probably victims of sexual abuse themselves. What 8yo boy even knows what a penis is for ? other than peeing through.

This. Also, can 8 year olds get erections, have orgasms, jizz? Ewww, it's gross thinking about it. When's puberty anyway? I thought it was around 11 or 12 or something like that. Get off my lawn, can't remember.

Well, all it takes is walking in on your parents (or the babysitter and her bf in my case) having sex. Common enough. One of my friends had to explain, that yes, mom had sex, and that's what sex is like between men and women. That was after her daughter sat at the top of the stairs apparently and watched mom get busy with her date.

The worst thing was her two year old ending up saying, over and over, what she heard the nine year old say: 'You had sex last night!' repeatedly, and loudly most of the day, much to her embarrassment.

As far as 'does it work?' for a guy that age, partially. You can get an erection, and even have an orgasm, but the rest of the plumbing doesn't necessarily work at capacity.

Phelon Hardtimes:I haven't read the thread but is that even possible? I don't think I even got an erection until 12 years old. I know for a fact that I didn't at eight though. What the hell is going on out there these days?

One thing is, and yes, this is backed up, research anyone... the incredible amount of nutrition (and fatness associated) available to kids today is making them hit puberty far faster in many cases then not too long ago.

cwheelie:Let's hear you explanation.The courser & courser public dialogue and behavior gets the more we hear this stuff and everyone acts SHOCKED but no one wants to have a dialogue about where this comes from

There was a story going around among my friends of a group of neighborhood brothers who did something similar to a mildly retarded 13 year old neighbor girl (one of our friends hung out with the brothers and confirmed that the 10 year old youngest brother was coaxed into having sex / raping her).

No one had any trouble believing it happened, because those boys were known to be a bunch of freaks who were capable of nearly anything.

This was in 1982, so I doubt that PONG or a particularly risque episode of Three's Company had any bearing on their behavior.

Phelon Hardtimes:I haven't read the thread but is that even possible? I don't think I even got an erection until 12 years old. I know for a fact that I didn't at eight though. What the hell is going on out there these days?

Apparenlty it is possible, but the sad bit is that the kid would normally not have any idea to then go and do such a thing with it, unless some seriously ugly abuse has been happening at home.

I am a psych nurse, and we have 2 floors of children that are victims of sexual, physical, and emotional abuse. 8 out of every 10 children i have taken care of sexually acted out. It is a learned behavior.

Nidiot:Phelon Hardtimes: I haven't read the thread but is that even possible? I don't think I even got an erection until 12 years old. I know for a fact that I didn't at eight though. What the hell is going on out there these days?

Apparenlty it is possible, but the sad bit is that the kid would normally not have any idea to then go and do such a thing with it, unless some seriously ugly abuse has been happening at home.

While I won't discount abuse, I won't jump right to that. Witnessing your parents, or the babysitter and her bf, having sex is common enough for kids.

TomD9938:cwheelie: Let's hear you explanation.The courser & courser public dialogue and behavior gets the more we hear this stuff and everyone acts SHOCKED but no one wants to have a dialogue about where this comes from

There was a story going around among my friends of a group of neighborhood brothers who did something similar to a mildly retarded 13 year old neighbor girl (one of our friends hung out with the brothers and confirmed that the 10 year old youngest brother was coaxed into having sex / raping her).

No one had any trouble believing it happened, because those boys were known to be a bunch of freaks who were capable of nearly anything.

This was in 1982, so I doubt that PONG or a particularly risque episode of Three's Company had any bearing on their behavior.

Decades after school, I can see why some kids were all messed up.Across the spectrum of demographics. Very wealthy kids that 'dropped out' of private schools and children of Housekeepers.I'm pretty sure I know the physically abused and the ones with "Funny Uncles" (for lack of a better term).

This one time, on a band trip, a girl freaked out when I just wanted to kiss. She told me later about some nasty stuff. First I had any first hand knowledge that this happened. I was very sad. She was a nice girl.She married some guy that beat her up. She will talk to me on the beach but never go out on the boat.

sneako:I am a psych nurse, and we have 2 floors of children that are victims of sexual, physical, and emotional abuse. 8 out of every 10 children i have taken care of sexually acted out. It is a learned behavior.

This is a very real issue. And this is what bugs me about people who try to blame TV or video games. Even infants know the difference between real stuff and video. When something bad happens to you, it affects you. Watching a video screen does not.

Thunderpipes:Phelon Hardtimes: I haven't read the thread but is that even possible? I don't think I even got an erection until 12 years old. I know for a fact that I didn't at eight though. What the hell is going on out there these days?

One thing is, and yes, this is backed up, research anyone... the incredible amount of nutrition (and fatness associated) available to kids today is making them hit puberty far faster in many cases then not too long ago.

I could see that and hormones doing that I guess. Still, that's crazy to me.

Nidiot:Phelon Hardtimes: I haven't read the thread but is that even possible? I don't think I even got an erection until 12 years old. I know for a fact that I didn't at eight though. What the hell is going on out there these days?

Apparenlty it is possible, but the sad bit is that the kid would normally not have any idea to then go and do such a thing with it, unless some seriously ugly abuse has been happening at home.

If not at home, certainly somewhere that they've been exposed to it.

WTF people? Kids under 14 shouldn't even have those thoughts in their heads. And rapey thoughts? That's crazy shiat there.

Testicular_Falcon_Punch:"I'm not blaming just the kids," she said. "I blame the teachers, the people who are supposed to protect our kids when they're at school.'

/Seriously? You're blaming the teachers for not being everywhere at once? Try blaming the scumbag kids who raped and assaulted your child. Idiot. And the sad thing is, she will sue the school and win millions, and the kids who did it are too young to be tried in court.

How about blaming the scumbag parents? If a child is a rapist at 8 years of age, he is being or has been horribly abused by either a parent or another guardian.

Thunderpipes:sneako: I am a psych nurse, and we have 2 floors of children that are victims of sexual, physical, and emotional abuse. 8 out of every 10 children i have taken care of sexually acted out. It is a learned behavior.

This is a very real issue. And this is what bugs me about people who try to blame TV or video games. Even infants know the difference between real stuff and video. When something bad happens to you, it affects you. Watching a video screen does not.

I have to agree. Nursery rhymes and old fairy tales are horrid, gruesome, tales of torture, murder and abuse, and have been told to kids for centuries. Video game violence is nothing new or special. Kids know the difference between "real" and "pretend".

Phelon Hardtimes:Kids under 14 shouldn't even have those thoughts in their heads.

14? Seriously? Am I the only one here who had sexual thoughts at a very young age, or am I just the only one who remembers? I mean, not rapey thoughts... but I distinctly recall wanting to have sex with girls at 7 or 8. Hell, I had actual, real sex for the first time at 13.

sneako:I am a psych nurse, and we have 2 floors of children that are victims of sexual, physical, and emotional abuse. 8 out of every 10 children i have taken care of sexually acted out. It is a learned behavior.

This. The physiological response is at all ages. the understanding and acting out is learned. I've heard my 6 y/o use profanity in context with no understanding after hearing it at a baseball game.

Acting out and understanding that it is wrong, especially if they were forced to endue it themselves before any concept of reason, is very hard to deal with. There are 3 victims here and justice is punishing their abusers.

At risk of setting myself up as an expert (I'm not) I would bet my last penny that the two kids are victims of sexual abuse themselves. Either actual sexual abuse, or exposure to explicit material. That's how children learn how to do these things with no understanding of their meaning or harms.

Spuddy345:At risk of setting myself up as an expert (I'm not) I would bet my last penny that the two kids are victims of sexual abuse themselves. Either actual sexual abuse, or exposure to explicit material. That's how children learn how to do these things with no understanding of their meaning or harms.

Z-clipped:Phelon Hardtimes: Kids under 14 shouldn't even have those thoughts in their heads.

14? Seriously? Am I the only one here who had sexual thoughts at a very young age, or am I just the only one who remembers? I mean, not rapey thoughts... but I distinctly recall wanting to have sex with girls at 7 or 8. Hell, I had actual, real sex for the first time at 13.

Don't get me wrong here and I might be the odd man out but I didn't know what sex was at 7 or 8. I thought girls were cute and stole a kiss or two around 10 years old but I wasn't thinking about sex at all. To be fair I grew up in a religious household and didn't have sex until I was 16. I am 38 now so I don't know if younger folks are just farking younger now *shrugs*

I want all the kids involved to get some serious counseling. They can recover, maybe. The parents? I want them to spend the rest of their lives in jail. After having every goddamned tooth knocked out of their mouths with a socket wrench. With a few extra whacks just to make farking sure.

You need a license to drive a car. You need a license to catch a farking fish. But any incompetant asshole can have as many kids as they want and ruin dozens and dozens of lives and somehow that's protected.

This planet farking sucks anymore. But I don't think for a second we didn't somehow earn it. There's two things you can do when something's broke. You can fix it, or you can throw it away. So the question is, how can we fix it? What the hell do we do?

Am I the only one thinking that abuse isn't the only way the kids got like this? It's entirely possible they saw dad putting mom in her place like this, and figured it's a good way to get what they want too.Obviously, it's still a farked up home life in this scenario

Cpl.D:I want all the kids involved to get some serious counseling. They can recover, maybe. The parents? I want them to spend the rest of their lives in jail. After having every goddamned tooth knocked out of their mouths with a socket wrench. With a few extra whacks just to make farking sure.

You need a license to drive a car. You need a license to catch a farking fish. But any incompetant asshole can have as many kids as they want and ruin dozens and dozens of lives and somehow that's protected.

This planet farking sucks anymore. But I don't think for a second we didn't somehow earn it. There's two things you can do when something's broke. You can fix it, or you can throw it away. So the question is, how can we fix it? What the hell do we do?

It could be the parents. Then again it could also be an uncle, cousin, grandparent, or family friend. Hopefully this will be investigated fully, and if these kids are being abused(which they likely are) their abusers should be punished for both the crimes against the rapist children, and for the crimes perpetrated upon the girl they raped.

Baloo Uriza:neongoats: /ex moved there to be a meth head//good riddance

Wow, wrong O-state. I moved from Oregon to Oklahoma to get away from the hardcore tweakers, and succeeded overwhelmingly.

/Seriously wouldn't be surprised if this happens in Portland Public Schools all the time, but doesn't get reported because the police don't want to negatively affect their stats...

I would be surprised "if this happens in Portland Public Schools all the time". The District takes mandatory reporting very seriously. People have been fired and teacher tenure broken for failing to report questionable cases. District policy is to report to the police and CPS immediately and to follow up on the initial report.

sendtodave:Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: Benevolent Misanthrope: I was tempted to ask, "When does a kid that age even learn about such things???" Then I remembered what's on TV, in games, and everywhere you care to look. Like it or not, kids learn about sex and violence pretty-much in the crib. Most, though, also learn about acceptable and unacceptable behaviour - though that line keeps moving, too.

I'd bet money the kids were sexually abused themselves and just re-enacting what was done to them as a coping mechanism.

Are we operating under an assumption that mammals don't know how to copulate without being taught?

Cpl.D:I want all the kids involved to get some serious counseling. They can recover, maybe. The parents? I want them to spend the rest of their lives in jail. After having every goddamned tooth knocked out of their mouths with a socket wrench. With a few extra whacks just to make farking sure.

You need a license to drive a car. You need a license to catch a farking fish. But any incompetant asshole can have as many kids as they want and ruin dozens and dozens of lives and somehow that's protected.

This planet farking sucks anymore. But I don't think for a second we didn't somehow earn it. There's two things you can do when something's broke. You can fix it, or you can throw it away. So the question is, how can we fix it? What the hell do we do?

This is a good post.

The answer is obvious, but will never happen. Have to pass a serious test to have kids. Income, background, psych, everything.

anuran:Baloo Uriza: neongoats: /ex moved there to be a meth head//good riddance

Wow, wrong O-state. I moved from Oregon to Oklahoma to get away from the hardcore tweakers, and succeeded overwhelmingly.

/Seriously wouldn't be surprised if this happens in Portland Public Schools all the time, but doesn't get reported because the police don't want to negatively affect their stats...

I would be surprised "if this happens in Portland Public Schools all the time". The District takes mandatory reporting very seriously. People have been fired and teacher tenure broken for failing to report questionable cases. District policy is to report to the police and CPS immediately and to follow up on the initial report.