I say we dedicate this topic to some very fine foreign woman we've met in general.

Personally, I've always quite liked the international and exchange students we get at our school, though one girl always stands out in my memory, a quite nice British girl from London named Helen. Very lovely, and I've got to say, there's nothing that fits a beautiful woman better than a nice British accent.

PS: I like quite a lot else about Europe in general too, for that matter. It's just the stereotype of Americans that makes me sad. >_>

I've gone to class with/worked with some very nice European girls, including Russians, Germans, Bosnians, even one from Bulgaria. I tend to agree; girls with one of the varied UK accents positively kill me, but look anywhere from Anna Kournikova to Karolína Kurková and quickly figure out that former East Bloc girls are outstanding.

Just for the record; I've come to generally give the entire American 'stereotype' a major non-negotiable fuck-off. I will not apologize for being American or for America in general; just because we have a plethora of assholes in big business or government has nothing to do with me. As Americans we can be ambassadors for our nation when our leaders clearly are not up the task.

If you're outside US borders or new to them; I will expect you to be enlightened enough to recognize and respect the difference between We The People and the Establishment, or you won't get an ounce of my time.

On the Europe VS USA debate, what I often do notice (and that's from contact with average americans I meet over the web, not the "Establisment"), is that they always think of the USA be so very default. They often forget that not everyone on the web is an american.

This thread already is a good example. They way foreign is included in the message assumes everyone involved in this thread would be an american.

Another great example is the timezones. Americans use all kinds of fancy names for their timezones, PST, EST, whatever. I can tell you, any timezone in the world has a fancy name like that, most actually more than one. If everyone would use them, it'd be complete chaos, yet very few americans know their timezone in comparison to the international standard (GMT), expecting that people from other continents simply bother to learn theirs, while not even having the slightest clue when those people mention their own timezone ("Uhh, yeah, how much is that in EST?").

Another easy example is location. Just browse through the introduction threads on this board. Most people that are not from the US will post their country of origin, while those coming from the US mention their state, not even bothering to mention their country. Try imagining people from other countries mentioning their state or province without their country. Most of the time you wouldn't have a clue as to what it's about.

Now I don't consider this as actually intended to come over like that, but it does make americans appear as pretty full of themselves.

Another easy example is location. Just browse through the introduction threads on this board. Most people that are not from the US will post their country of origin, while those coming from the US mention their state, not even bothering to mention their country. Try imagining people from other countries mentioning their state or province without their country. Most of the time you wouldn't have a clue as to what it's about.

Now I don't consider this as actually intended to come over like that, but it does make Americans appear as pretty full of themselves.

Just my 2 cents.

You must be mindful that this effect stems from one of several reasons.

1) While America is far from economically or politically isolated, good sized chunks of it are culturally insular. What 95% of the world calls Football, they call soccer, and they just don't care if they're wrong.

2) Some Americans legitimately don't give a shit about what goes on outside US borders.

3) Some do get used to the vernacular here. Because of the morons in our department of education, metric was deemed too much of a hassle to convert US students over to. This first came up in the 1970's or 1980's; the irony is had they pushed the initiative then, we would now have an entire workforce generation that is just as fluent in metric as US standard measure, instead of being the only major nation that doesn't use it.

It's funny, but where the education system failed us, many of us gamers picked it up. In tabletop gaming and online wargaming, I routinely measure my range in meters and the weight of my weaponry in metric tons. 1.6 is permanently ingrained into my head as the conversion from kilometers to standard miles.

Likewise, we bother with internal vernacular, assuming that everyone knows the difference between Tennessee and Nevada. Now if someone starts spouting Canadian provinces I know those, and I'm aware a prefecture is very likely to be somewhere in Japan, but not all Americans have this working database in their heads.

4) Same with time zones; most have the capacity to correlate the four continental US time zones, but outside of this comfort zone they'll have issues. Unless we travel a lot, most of us can't/won't anchor ourselves on GMT for universal reference.

So, by definition America isn't always necessarily full of itself (well, except for Texas ), but America usually does what America does, and whoever else is paying attention just isn't an issue for many.

As an American, I know a lot of other American's who are "full of themselves". I try to avoid placing myself in that category. I know very little about GMT, or all of the areas of European countries. But that's because I suck at telling time (for real) and Geography in general, not because I'm so "full of myself" that I don't realize that there are other countries in the world. :p I didn't even realize that Canada and America aren't "all lined up" until a few days ago... lol

When I meet someone from another country/timezone, I generally ask: "what time is it where you are?" not "well what time is that in EST?" Or ... at least I don't think I do. And I rarely tell people from other countries what state I'm in unless they insist, a lot of Americans I talk to on the 'net don't even know where my state is or recognize it as a separate state (I live in West Virginia). *laughs* I think part of the reason why a lot of American's say that they are from such and such state, rather than America is because they identify more with being from their state than being from their country -- if that makes sense. And that's likely because more Americans, than people from the rest of the world might realize, dislike the country and the government as much as they do. Though it might be a little pretentious to think that people from the rest of the world give America enough thought to actually dislike it. *laughs*

Personally, I think Bulgarian girls are the cutest. :p I went to college with people from a lot of different countries (I think my university boasted with having students from 22 different nations). Very nice people from Europe, India, and Africa. Not to mention the Asian guys... *swoons*

Another easy example is location. Just browse through the introduction threads on this board. Most people that are not from the US will post their country of origin, while those coming from the US mention their state, not even bothering to mention their country. Try imagining people from other countries mentioning their state or province without their country. Most of the time you wouldn't have a clue as to what it's about.

This is because when the states came together to form the US, virtually everyone considered themselves a citizen of their state first and country second. This thought process is still prevalent today which is why you have people mentioning their state as their home rather than the US. It has less to do with them being US centric and more to do with the way in which the US was formed.

On topic though: I love accents. So European men and women are a win in my book!

I personally think many (not most, not all) Americans think they are better than everyone else. And the USA is the world's bully. (this is coming from an American!)

I would have to grudgingly agree with this, but only because you stipulated that not most and not all. :p I was just browsing, looking for the word that refers to the belief that your country is superior to all others (and I don't mean Patriotism or Nationalism or American :p), and found that when asked, "Are you proud to be from -insert country-?" Americans answer higher than other countries.

This is because when the states came together to form the US, virtually everyone considered themselves a citizen of their state first and country second. This thought process is still prevalent today which is why you have people mentioning their state as their home rather than the US. It has less to do with them being US centric and more to do with the way in which the US was formed.

On topic though: I love accents. So European men and women are a win in my book!

Exactly! I don't think of America as being all that united. Each state has its own culture with separate customs, points of pride, vernacular, food, dress, etc.

To be fair, you have to look at history and why this is. Western Europe is smaller then the United States, but consists of several countries, that have close to 2,000 years of history - from warring with each other etc. Every European country has had a powerful enemy at some point. The United States, on the other hand, has only had 200 years of History, is much larger, and really only has two neighbors, both of which have never been deemed a threat to the country. Not to mention living on the other side of an Ocean, in a country bigger then Western Europe - its very easy not to hear news about the world outside of the US and very easy not to care about it.

In Europe, given its history, you need to know about what your neighbor is doing. Not to mention relationships developed with those countries over hundreds of years, and personal experience in being the World Power/Bully. Portugal, Spain, England have all been 'the World bully' at points through out history, coinciding with their rise and fall on that stage. The United States rose to that status after WWII and is currently in its decline - its fall from grace - so 'ignorant' Americans are going to get a wake up call relatively soon.

EDIT: Look at how many diverse cultures there are in Europe too. USA also has hundreds of diverse cultures but is yet one country.

This is because when the states came together to form the US, virtually everyone considered themselves a citizen of their state first and country second. This thought process is still prevalent today which is why you have people mentioning their state as their home rather than the US. It has less to do with them being US centric and more to do with the way in which the US was formed.

On topic though: I love accents. So European men and women are a win in my book!

100% true. Tis one of the biggest reasons the Civil War occurred (Really did not have much to do with slavery, though the US federal government WANTED to abolish slavery, and used the force that was necessary to keep the southern states from succeeding as a means to do so effectively). What happened was the Confederacy believed firmly in states rights. They believed the states were pretty autonomous to the Federal Government and when teh Federal Gov, started to draft documents that would force the states that eventually succeeded into emancipating their slaves they balked at being told that they had to do so. They felt it should be States Right to decide whether or not to abolish slavery. (One must remember that in this time period Slavery was not considered repugnant unfortunately. I am in no way defending slavery, just that these people arent COMPLETE asshats that they really sound like....a case in example right now one usually believes that it is ok to own dogs as pets...however say 100 years from now it is discovered that dogs ARE cognizant and sentient (though they are not considered such today) then it would seem repugnant to the future for us to have had them as pets.) Again Not defending it..

Anywho, that is still how many (north and south) americans feel...tehy feel more loyalty to their states tehn their country..I would hate to think of what would happen if the states rose up against each other again.

You might have a point about the states, but the fact remains, that by merely posting the state without the country, you're basically assuming that other people know it's in the US. I certainly don't know the names of all the states of the US, or for that matter any country other than the Netherlands (if you can count provinces as states). I'm happy to know which continent a country is part of.

Only because they fail to include the name of the country makes me assume that they're from the US, just because people from most countries would've bothered to include that.

There's nothing wrong with Patriotism. You can be a Patriot and still respectfully keep in mind you're dealing with people that are not from the US, and don't base all their data on US standards.

What 95% of the world calls Football, they call soccer, and they just don't care if they're wrong.

2) Some Americans legitimately don't give a shit about what goes on outside US borders.

4) Same with time zones; most have the capacity to correlate the four continental US time zones, but outside of this comfort zone they'll have issues. Unless we travel a lot, most of us can't/won't anchor ourselves on GMT for universal reference.

So, by definition America isn't always necessarily full of itself (well, except for Texas ), but America usually does what America does, and whoever else is paying attention just isn't an issue for many.

I'm assuming you're talking from a general perspective here, because you seem to know a lot more yourself (Knowing the usefulness of metric for instance :)), but it's just that "We don't care" mentality that gives USA'ers the image of being full of themselves.

The use of the word America itself is already such a great example. You're talking about two continents there, not one country.

In Europe, given its history, you need to know about what your neighbor is doing. Not to mention relationships developed with those countries over hundreds of years, and personal experience in being the World Power/Bully. Portugal, Spain, England have all been 'the World bully' at points through out history, coinciding with their rise and fall on that stage. The United States rose to that status after WWII and is currently in its decline - its fall from grace - so 'ignorant' Americans are going to get a wake up call relatively soon.

Just remember, as you just said, there's thousands of years of history in Europe, as compared to just past two centuries for the US; how you define 'decline' means a great deal. Americans have been in the fire before, and have come through it stronger than ever. At present, we're languishing under an administration that doesn't know its ass from a hole in the ground, the education system needs to be overhauled, and the Dollar has slipped behind the Euro on the global market. Be that as it may, only a fool counts out the United States, we've been through much worse points in our history.

What I can say with absolute conviction is that I will not underestimate the inventiveness and tenacity of Americans.

I'm assuming you're talking from a general perspective here, because you seem to know a lot more yourself (Knowing the usefulness of metric for instance :)), but it's just that "We don't care" mentality that gives USA'ers the image of being full of themselves.

The use of the word America itself is already such a great example. You're talking about two continents there, not one country.

It is a general statement, many people here just don't keep abreast of things outside our borders. Ask some truck driver in Oklahoma what he thinks of the development of maglevs in Europe and you'll get only a blank stare, but he should care, because retooling our public transit in the face of rising fuel costs is critical. Revising our rail system will be part of it.

Typically we use America as in the United States of, as opposed to Americas, plural, to reflect both continents. Sounds egocentric perhaps but it's all relative to perspective. I do have a tendency to giggle when the British refer to London as being way down south in their country, being as the state of Georgia and Thirteenth Colony is slightly larger than the whole of mother England; travel that distance here and you never leave the south, but again it's all relative.

Just remember, as you just said, there's thousands of years of history in Europe, as compared to just past two centuries for the US; how you define 'decline' means a great deal. Americans have been in the fire before, and have come through it stronger than ever. At present, we're languishing under an administration that doesn't know its ass from a hole in the ground, the education system needs to be overhauled, and the Dollar has slipped behind the Euro on the global market. Be that as it may, only a fool counts out the United States, we've been through much worse points in our history.

What I can say with absolute conviction is that I will not underestimate the inventiveness and tenacity of Americans.

I'm not saying that the United States is headed towards total collapse...its headed to a shift in power as far as 'World Police'. Look at the British Empire - they did not collapse, and are still a very powerful country in World Politics, but they don't police the world like the US does anymore. They used to - with all their colonies etc. In the next 50 years, the US will continues its 'decline' and - with the way things are shaping up - China will become the next World Bully.

Maybe now that this thread has turned to this it should be moved to Politics and Religion sub forum where i will never ever visit. Nothing good comes from bickering about politics, this has Lithos's stamp of disapproval x.x

I'm not saying that the United States is headed towards total collapse...its headed to a shift in power as far as 'World Police'. Look at the British Empire - they did not collapse, and are still a very powerful country in World Politics, but they don't police the world like the US does anymore. They used to - with all their colonies etc. In the next 50 years, the US will continues its 'decline' and - with the way things are shaping up - China will become the next World Bully.

Without derailing this any further, I will say I tend to agree here; and the US stepping 'off duty' as World Cop would not be a bad thing at all.