The Old Gods certainly considered themselves superior to him during the first invasion. Of course we killed two of them and some of their strongest servants, since then. But during the war of the ancients, they certainly felt that all of them together could surely defeat a single Titan, in the Well of Eternity trilogy. Whether it's true is unknown. It took a Pantheon of Titans to take down the Old Gods. It's possible Sargeras has gained enough power to match the whole Titan Pantheon since his fall.

I like how you're making bull**** up. Just like most lore posers on forums.

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Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide

My first question would be why he's freeing them in the first place? :S
The Old Gods would literally devour Sargeras on his own if they were all free. He's strong but against 3/4 Old Gods, alone, he'd have as much chance as a mechanical rabbit would against Sargeras.

We actually have more proof that a Pantheon titan would wipe the floor with any number of Old Gods than the other way around. C'thun barely managed to defeat a 'normal' titan. No group of Old Gods could stand against a single Pantheon member. Algalon even stated the power of the Titans during his encounter in Ulduar.

"I have seen worlds bathed in the Makers' flames. Their denizens fading without so much as a whimper. Entire planetary systems born and raised in the time that it takes your mortal hearts to beat once." - Algalon

hehe the Fans proably care more about that lore than the devs themselves. I bet it will be retconned anything how they want it when its the right time, same procedure as every year.

I like the theory that an old god, probably much more powerful one than the ones on azeroth, made Sargeras mad and created all these demons before sargeras turned dark and insane and when he fought against them.

Somehow the madness of Sargeras needs to be explained more. Few minor demons couldn't drive him mad possibly, well most of the explanation given in the old lore sounds pretty lacking and lame. Every Titan should be a dark titan by now if thats all whats needed to become a chaotic evil Juggernaut.

I like how you're making bull**** up. Just like most lore posers on forums.

Well, there's a mature contribution to the discussion.

The source of the information you quoted, as stated, is in the War of the Ancients trilogy dealing with the Well of Eternity. I can copy some direct quotes from the book, as they are relevant to the discussion anyway.

Opening of Book 3, War of the Ancients. The Sundering.From his monstrous realm, the lord of the Legion prepared for his entrance into this latest prize. Soon, so
very soon, he would eradicate all life, all existence, from it…and then he would go on to the next ripe world.
But there were others waiting in growing expectation, others with dire dreams far older than even that of the demon
lord. They had waited for so very long for the means to escape, the means to reclaim what had once been theirs.
Each step of success by Sargeras toward strengthening his portal was a step of success for them. With the Well,
with the Demon Soul, and with the lord of the Legion’s might, they would open up a window into their eternal
prison.

And once open, there would be no sealing it again.
The Old Gods waited. They had done so for so very long, they could wait a little longer.
But only a little…

And from the same book, the perspective of the Old Gods themselves about a confrontation with Sargeras:They felt the nearness of their freedom quickly approaching. How ironic that it would be one who had once been
one of the hated Titans who would prove the instrument of their release! It had taken the combined might of many
Titans to even force them into captivity; after their triumphant return, there would be little effort needed to eradicate
this single, arrogant creature and turn his warriors to serving their cause.

Like I said, the Old Gods were convinced they could kick Sargeras' butt upon their release. We've robbed them of vital tools and servants now though, and took two of them out of the fight, at least for now.

And from the same book, the perspective of the Old Gods themselves about a confrontation with Sargeras:They felt the nearness of their freedom quickly approaching. How ironic that it would be one who had once been
one of the hated Titans who would prove the instrument of their release! It had taken the combined might of many
Titans to even force them into captivity; after their triumphant return, there would be little effort needed to eradicate
this single, arrogant creature and turn his warriors to serving their cause.

Like I said, the Old Gods were convinced they could kick Sargeras' butt upon their release. We've robbed them of vital tools and servants now though, and took two of them out of the fight, at least for now.

I would still call that speculative. The Old Gods are comparing Sargeras to the Titans who imprisoned them. They don't actually know Sargeras' true power. Sargeras was the Titans' greatest warrior (i.e. stronger than any of the Titans those Old Gods faced), but had left the Pantheon long before they fought the Old Gods. Sargeras has grown a lot stronger since he left.

Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-08-23 at 03:41 AM.

Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment

´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

Well this is just my thought but I think reason Titans didn't kill most of Old Gods was because they are needed to create living. They cause curse of flash and if they are killed that will end curse of flash aka will just put end to us. But at same time they are placing all around Algalon type structures to observe worlds if Old Gods are in place or no, if no then he just eradicate place and start everything from 0.

And when looking on Outland you don't need them to have on each planet but more like on one planet in each solar system. With that there will be enough to spread life across all planets near by.

We don't know how really powerful are Old Gods and Titans but we know that that Old Gods are very egoistic creatures which think they are the strongest ones and the most powerful ones. What could make them to overestimate there real strenght.

hehe the Fans proably care more about that lore than the devs themselves. I bet it will be retconned anything how they want it when its the right time, same procedure as every year.

I like the theory that an old god, probably much more powerful one than the ones on azeroth, made Sargeras mad and created all these demons before sargeras turned dark and insane and when he fought against them.

Somehow the madness of Sargeras needs to be explained more. Few minor demons couldn't drive him mad possibly, well most of the explanation given in the old lore sounds pretty lacking and lame. Every Titan should be a dark titan by now if thats all whats needed to become a chaotic evil Juggernaut.

The thing is Sargeras wasn't driven mad. He sunk into a depression after millenia of imprisoning demon horde after demon horde. He's still very sane; it's just a matter of perspective. Of course WE, the denizens of Azeroth, think he's insane, b/c he wants to wipe us out. However, look at it from his perspective. His main prerogative in life is to bring about order to the cosmos. What he found after millenia was that LIFE itself is chaotic and his current answer (imprisoning demons) to bringing order was insufficient. It was at this moment, he had an epiphany and realized to bring order to the universe, all life must be extinguished - only then could absolute order be obtained. This is where Sargeras' philosophy diverged from his brethren and led him to forsake the Pantheon and create the Burning Legion.

At then end of the day, Sargeras is still just trying to perform his main function - bringing order to the universe. Unfortunately for us, his answer is universal genocide.

Well yes, it's debatable if the Old Gods were right in feeling that would overpower Sargeras easily. All I'm stating is that according to the book, they certainly felt they would. Sargeras trying to emerge from the Well of Eternity using the Dragon Soul was all according to their plan of escape. Whether it was a smart plan, we may never know.

Well yes, it's debatable if the Old Gods were right in feeling that would overpower Sargeras easily. All I'm stating is that according to the book, they certainly felt they would. Sargeras trying to emerge from the Well of Eternity using the Dragon Soul was all according to their plan of escape. Whether it was a smart plan, we may never know.

Ask any boxer before a fight if they can beat their opponent, they say they will. The only way of knowing is after the fight :P

They felt the nearness of their freedom quickly approaching. How ironic that it would be one who had once been one of the hated Titans who would prove the instrument of their release! It had taken the combined might of many Titans to even force them into captivity; after their triumphant return, there would be little effort needed to eradicate this single, arrogant creature and turn his warriors to serving their cause.
The portal strengthened. The time when to usurp it fast approached. Most amusing, the pathetic little beings who fought the fallen Titan‟s warriors thought that they could take back the disk. Even now, the imprisoned entities could sense the dragons—the Titans‟ hounds—approaching the Well.

It's from War of the Ancients: Book 3: The Sundering.

It's from Knaak. As I said, that isn't canon? Unless I'm mistaken, I'm not being arrogant here. I think that is also from an Old God's perspective, as in they *thought* they could take Sarg with ease. I don't think it's directly stating what it's describing. If you understand me.

It's from Knaak. As I said, that isn't canon? Unless I'm mistaken, I'm not being arrogant here.

Like him or not Knaak's books are canon, and have shaped more aspects of the WoW universe than any other author. It's the Roleplay Game books that Blizzard has stated are no longer canon, but the literature books are as canon as can be. In most cases, the literature seems to be taken as more canon than events represented in the game. The game is based on the canon, but gameplay takes precedent over lore.

I agree with you of course that this is merely the old god perspective. They thought they could take on Sargeras with ease. They did seem to have the element of surprise in their favour, at least. It doesn't seem Sargeras feels his actions are planned and counted on, by another great force. We have no real idea about the true power of Sargeras. The Old Gods yet saw him as a Titan, with the power level of one.

The thing is Sargeras wasn't driven mad. He sunk into a depression after millenia of imprisoning demon horde after demon horde. He's still very sane; it's just a matter of perspective. Of course WE, the denizens of Azeroth, think he's insane, b/c he wants to wipe us out. However, look at it from his perspective. His main prerogative in life is to bring about order to the cosmos. What he found after millenia was that LIFE itself is chaotic and his current answer (imprisoning demons) to bringing order was insufficient. It was at this moment, he had an epiphany and realized to bring order to the universe, all life must be extinguished - only then could absolute order be obtained. This is where Sargeras' philosophy diverged from his brethren and led him to forsake the Pantheon and create the Burning Legion.

At then end of the day, Sargeras is still just trying to perform his main function - bringing order to the universe. Unfortunately for us, his answer is universal genocide.

Thats a good point, i wonder if blizzard is consistent enough to use this or it will be all retconned and he turns out to be just a chaotic demon spawn influenced by something else. There is so much corruption going on in those blizzard games and retcons.

Thats a good point, i wonder if blizzard is consistent enough to use this or it will be all retconned and he turns out to be just a chaotic demon spawn influenced by something else. There is so much corruption going on in those blizzard games and retcons.

I'm sure it'll all be retconned. In the end he'll just be another dick spouting shit throughout an encounter while we pillage his body for purples.

Like him or not Knaak's books are canon, and have shaped more aspects of the WoW universe than any other author. It's the Roleplay Game books that Blizzard has stated are no longer canon, but the literature books are as canon as can be. In most cases, the literature seems to be taken as more canon than events represented in the game. The game is based on the canon, but gameplay takes precedent over lore.

I agree with you of course that this is merely the old god perspective. They thought they could take on Sargeras with ease. They did seem to have the element of surprise in their favour, at least. It doesn't seem Sargeras feels his actions are planned and counted on, by another great force. We have no real idea about the true power of Sargeras. The Old Gods yet saw him as a Titan, with the power level of one.

It seems I am wrong, I always thought Knaak's books weren't canon when it came to proper lore. Although, yeah, the point still stands that it was an Old God perspective thing and not an X>Y in terms of power statement, which was what the original person I quoted was trying to say.

Like him or not Knaak's books are canon, and have shaped more aspects of the WoW universe than any other author. It's the Roleplay Game books that Blizzard has stated are no longer canon, but the literature books are as canon as can be. In most cases, the literature seems to be taken as more canon than events represented in the game. The game is based on the canon, but gameplay takes precedent over lore.

It's a bit tricky sometimes, though. Sometimes the books are more canon than the game because the game has to compromise lore for gameplay. The best example of this is Theramore. The novel is more canon than the scenario, especially the Alliance side. They originally designed the scenario to match the events in the novel, with the Alliance PCs assisting Jaina before the bombing. But they changed the scenario to take place after the bombing because it played better even though Jaina was actually alone in the crater.

Blizzard bounced back and forth between when to set the Alliance scenario. They chose to make it after the bombing because they thought it made for the best gameplay. WoW is a game, gameplay is king.

Originally Posted by Dave Kosak

Any chance of a complete redo of the theramore alliance side scenario to more closely match the events of the book?
Theramore went through several revisions. The version that took place 'during' the book was less fun, and was scrapped. (Source)

Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler

Sometimes it's too obv how little you care about the story/lore of the game.We care ENORMOUSLY about the story and lore. But we care about gameplay more. (Source)

Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment

´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

It seems I am wrong, I always thought Knaak's books weren't canon when it came to proper lore. Although, yeah, the point still stands that it was an Old God perspective thing and not an X>Y in terms of power statement, which was what the original person I quoted was trying to say.

The narrator says it not Old Gods. It also says that it took many Titans to subdue the Old Gods and it's not even clear if they were united. N'zoth as it seems was not defeated by The Pantheon and it's armies which makes him the biggest player in lore. Sargeras is small potato in this league.

The narrator says it not Old Gods. It also says that it took many Titans to subdue the Old Gods and it's not even clear if they were united. N'zoth as it seems was not defeated by The Pantheon and it's armies which makes him the biggest player in lore. Sargeras is small potato in this league.

Narrated from the perspective of the Old Gods... There is a deliberate break in the text separating this section and the tone completely changes. Nowhere in the book does an exclamation mark appear outside of dialogue or internal thoughts (and there are a lot of them), therefore, this passage must also be from the internal thoughts of the Old Gods.

They felt the nearness of their freedom quickly approaching. How ironic that it would be one who had once been one of the hated Titans who would prove the instrument of their release! It had taken the combined might of many Titans to even force them into captivity; after their triumphant return, there would be little effort needed to eradicate this single, arrogant creature and turn his warriors to serving their cause.
The portal strengthened. The time when to usurp it fast approached. Most amusing, the pathetic little beings who fought the fallen Titan's warriors thought that they could take back the disk. Even now, the imprisoned entities could sense the dragons—the Titans' hounds—approaching the Well.

It's still speculative. It's comparing Sargeras to the Titans who imprisoned the Old Gods. Sargeras was the Titans' greatest warrior (i.e. stronger than any of the Titans those Old Gods faced), but had left the Pantheon long before they fought the Old Gods. Sargeras has grown a lot stronger since he left.

Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-08-23 at 10:02 PM.

Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment

´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

The narrator says it not Old Gods. It also says that it took many Titans to subdue the Old Gods and it's not even clear if they were united. N'zoth as it seems was not defeated by The Pantheon and it's armies which makes him the biggest player in lore. Sargeras is small potato in this league.

Then the Old Gods are the end of a chip if Sargeras is a potato N'Zoth is defeated and chained, you're taking things the wrong way. If N'Zoth was left unleashed then there would be chaos everywhere.