Grizzlies coach Lionel Hollins thinks the Grizzlies can succeed with Mike Conley as point guard, but that Conley needs to improve his game.

Say this for Grizzlies coach Lionel Hollins: He doesn't shrink from hard questions.

I thought of as many as possible. I posed them over lunch earlier in the week. Only twice did Hollins ask to go off the record. The rest was open and free-wheeling.

He does not think O.J. Mayo can play point guard. He does not think Hasheem Thabeet is a bust. He does not like the lame questions he often gets after games. He does not understand why anyone would be intimidated by him.

This is a transcript of the entire interview. Yes, it's long. If you care about the local NBA franchise, you'll read every word.

The man just signed a new three-year deal with the Grizzlies. Next to owner Mike Heisley, he may be the most influential person in the organization. He's also blunt. Refreshingly so. But, then, don't take my word for it.

GC: You signed the contract last week. It's three years. What do you want to accomplish in three years?

LH: I don't have any three-year goals. I just want to keep getting better and ultimately winning. I have no time frame on it. I thought we had a good season this year. In my mind, we exceeded expectations across the board. Fans, media, ownership and coaches. I don't think anybody thought we could make a 16-game jump. We were fortunate that our players came back and got better and then we got Zach Randolph, who gave us a bona fide rebounder and bona fide low post presence. So what we end up doing, we go from 30th in the NBA in rebounding to No. 2. We go from 20th in offensive rebounding to No. 1. We go from 30th in the NBA in points in the paint to No. 1 in points in the paint. So all those things helped because all of that added to more free throw attempts. Our scoring went up from 95 or whatever it was to 102. So being able to score probably gave us an advantage over a lot of teams. It's probably why we were able to make the huge jump.

GC: In your owner's vaunted three-year plan, this is supposed to be the third year. I don't know if you're supposed to be in the playoffs during your third year or be in contention. Do you think the playoffs are a reasonable goal for the coming year?

LH: I don't think it's reasonable for the group that we have. The West is really tough. Every team that made the playoffs won 50 games. The eighth team, we had our struggles against. The seventh team, we had our struggles against. The sixth team ... I mean, every one of them.

GC: And Houston is going to be getting Yao Ming back.

LH: Right. I mean, it's going to be tough. But I think if we add some pieces, we aren't that far away. But you have to compete against those teams that are in the playoffs in order to make the playoffs. There's other formulas, obviously. Oklahoma City won a lot of games against teams from the East. And for us, you know, we have to win more at home, too. We have to add some players to get there, in my mind.

GC: Do you expect Rudy Gay to be on the team next year?

LH: I do.

GC: If he gets a massive offer, something close to a max offer, is it a smart basketball decision to pay that much salary to a guy who is not a proven superstar? At some point, is there price where it's no longer a smart basketball decision to match it?

LH: There will always be a point where it's not a smart business decision but I don't know if it's not a smart basketball decision. See, there's a difference there. The basketball decision would be, where does that team go without him? Where does the fan base go without him? The business decision is what you just stated. From a basketball perspective, we've grown so much, we've invested so much in him to get him to this point after four years that it would just truly be a waste to let him walk and go to another team and now all of a sudden he blossoms into the player that everybody was hoping he could be.

GC: Do you think there's much more than that what we saw, for example, this past year?

LH: Of course. He's got a lot of ceiling left. He's just scratching the surface. And the reason he's just scratching the surface is because, for Rudy Gay, there's a skill level that still has growth. To be a more consistent shooter, to be a better ball handler so you can attack the basket better and increase your free throw shooting, but also, as a playmaker, and also thinking the game, making the right play, when to take shots, when to make the pass, understanding the situation. It's not all there.

GC: And yet the rap against Rudy has been the same rap as when you drafted him. He has this incredible athleticism and yet, somehow, what you get is always a little bit less. Is that changeable?

LH: I don't think no matter what Rudy Gay does, the media is always going to want more. It will be based on how much money he makes, what the expectation for Rudy is. It's the unfairness of this business but it's also the price you have to pay with the territory. I've always wanted more from Rudy. I think, with a player like Rudy, there's components that have to be all brought together. It takes time for guys who are just athletic. It's the mental toughness of the game, it's the physical toughness of the game, it's understanding the game from a winning perspective and not just a scoring perspective. That, to me, is why a lot of young teams don't win in the NBA. And then, the second part of that, why they don't win, is that there's not a pecking that's been established. One night, one guy gets 30. The next night, another guy gets 30. Now a third guy, now everybody thinks that they're the man because of one 30-point game. Not understanding that it's the consistency level of the scoring, but also the consistency level of everything else. Rudy can be a much better defensive player. He's come a long ways, got a ways to go.

GC: He's been in the league longer than Kevin Durant, longer than Derrick Rose, and yet those guys seem to be elevating their franchises in a way that, with Rudy, it's still, let's wait.

LH: Well, you've got two different talents there. Derrick Rose is a point guard but he's basically a penetrator/scorer and he's been that way his whole life. Durant has been a 30-point scorer his whole life. You know, Rudy has been an athlete his whole life. There's a big difference in all of that.

GC: And yet we're saying that Derrick will continue to be what he's always been, that Durant will always be a 30-point guy, yet Rudy the athlete will become something other that what he's always been?

LH: Durant led the league in scoring. He probably led his fourth grade team in scoring, too. He led Texas in scoring. He's always been a guy that could shoot the ball and score. And so his growth is going to come outside the scoring. He showed that this year with his shot blocking, his rebounding, his passing. That's all going to get better. Derrick Rose has improved his shot. He's improved a little bit on making other guys better but that's not his game and that's probably why he's struggled a little bit with how far Chicago has gone, that's just my opinion. Whereas, Rudy has just been one of the guys and when the game goes up and down he excites you. When it's a half-court game he doesn't excite you, but he's getting to the point where even in his half court play, he's getting better at it. When you're young, your focus is real narrow and it's usually on you. Versus seeing what the team needs and when it needs it. The guys who are super duper stars, they have that vision at a younger age.

GC: Let's go to point guard because that's one of the positions that people love to argue about. Do you need an upgrade at starting point guard?

LH: No. We need an upgrade in the guy we have. I think he needs to get better and he will. I mean, we look at the playoffs. You start talking about which point guards would you rather have. People have said that to me, and I'm, like, "Mike has had success against all those guys." He's had great success. It's just a matter of consistency. My feeling is this, and I've said it before, Mike may not be what everybody thinks he should be but we just won 40 games and he was a big part of that. When he was out, we struggled. And until someone comes in there that we draft or just falls in our hands, Mike's the point guard.

GC: But those are related, aren't they? In other words, if you think Mike is the point guard you're less inclined to go get Tyreke Evans, for example, just to go back and revisit an old one.

LH: Right, but is Tyreke a point guard? No. He's never going to be a point guard in this league. He's going to be a basketball player that kind of has the ball in his hands sometimes, but they better have a point guard with him when they want to run offense, or they want someone to run the ball.

GC: Is Chauncey Billups a point guard or a basketball player?

LH: I think he's more of a basketball player.

GC: But you don't need a point guard next to Chauncey Billups, do you?

LH: I think he's developed into a point guard. When he first came into the league you needed a point guard next to Chauncey Billups. That's why Chauncey has been on three or four teams. These guys bounce around, then all of a sudden they get it and then they run with it.

GC: It feels like Mike has become the focal point of criticism and you're always in the position of defending him. Do you get sick of that dynamic?

LH: It's part of the business but here's what I say. People have expectations of the point guard that goes out and get 30 points every night. Not every point guard goes out and gets 30 points every night and 15 assists but it doesn't make them a bad point guard. I mean, Jason Kidd now, Jason Kidd averaged about 12 or 13 points a game, somewhere in that area.

GC: He must get many more assists.

LH: Averages about eight assists a game.

GC: I guess, the question is, when you look at the playoffs and you see Deron Williams and you see Steve Nash and you see Rajon Rando and you see Derrick Rose. You see Russell Westbrook. Can Mike Conley compete at that level against those guys on the biggest stage?

LH: He's done it all year long. We don't beat those teams without Mike Conley competing against them. Now, again, everybody's role is different. Is Mike Conley better than the kid (Andre) Miller in Portland? Physically he's not. But he competes against him. Is he better than the kid at Golden State? He's competed against those guys. The guy at Sacramento, Beno Udrih. He's competed against all those guys. It's not like he's a hole and we're like, "We just hope he holds up when we play the games." It's not like that at all. We're expecting him to go out and have good games and lead us. It's just, for him, his whole career has been playing with great players and he's been the guy who brought the ball up the court, threw the ball to those guys and then played a little defense. In the NBA, you have to be more of an aggressor, you have to be more of an attacker at the point guard. I asked him today when I saw him, "Did you see the game yesterday?" He said, "Yeah." I said, "Did you see what Rajon Rondo did?" He said, "Yeah, that was a super game." I said, "He was attacking. He's not waiting on those other guys." Part of Boston's issue over the time that Rondo's been there is when to give him the ball full-time versus the Big Three.

GC: It's exacerbated by Mike's physical limitations. You have two guards right now who are, combined, on the low end physically. O.J. is small for his position and Mike is small for his position. Can you win that way?

LH: Can you win with Derek Fisher?

GC: If you've got Kobe.

LH: We were talking about Mike Conley first of all, but now you're expanding it. So let's expand it even further. Are we overmatched at the 4 position athletically? Are we overmatched at the 5 position? Yeah.

GC: So what do you do?

LH: We've got to go get better. If you go back to the Detroit Pistons before they became the Bad Boys, I happened to have played with them. (Bill) Laimbeer, Kent Benson, Kelly Tripucka, every night, were overmatched. What did they do?

GC: They got Isiah?

LH: Nope. They had Isiah already. They went and got John Salley and Dennis Rodman and those guys blended in and became the athleticism that helped balance their team. That's what it's about, you don't have to get a guy to replace a guy, you've just got to get guys that can help. You go back and look at the Lakers when they beat Philadelphia and Allen Iverson. The guy that was a big part of them winning that championship was Tyronn Lue. All he did was chase Allen Iverson all over the court for 48 minutes and made the guy shoot 38 percent.

GC: But you just said that you're overmatched at the 1, the 2, the 4 and the 5. At the 3, there may be other issues. Don't you need guys who don't just come off the bench to play that role of chasing people, but people in the starting lineup? Dennis Rodman was on the court all the time. John Salley was on the court much of the time.

LH: Neither one of them were starters.

GC: A lot of minutes. Dennis Rodman played a lot of minutes.

LH: Whether they played a lot of minutes or not, they balanced the team out. Dennis Rodman eventually became a starter and then he goes to Chicago and he is the starter. The Chicago Bulls didn't do anything until they got Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant.

GC: OK, so what's the Dennis Rodman you need on this team? What's that role? What's that player do?

LH: We need a guy that can stretch the floor. But going back to that overmatched, it's not every night that it's overmatched. Sometimes, it's pretty equal. What we need is to just draft a good player that we like at any of those spots and if they come in and they're better than the guy we have then they'll be the starter. Eventually, they'll be the starter. That's just the way it is in this league. But to go out and say, "We've got to change this and get this," if you change, take away this and put something else in there, and it turns out to not be as good, then you're screwed. You just try to keep building.

GC: You don't say this group is good enough to win, but not good enough to win big defensively? This group that we have here, they can score, they can certainly score in the paint, but they're not, as a group, good enough to win two playoff series someday? Because defensively they're never going to be.

LH: I think we're going to get better defensively. I played with the Detroit Pistons when they were scoring 150 points in games, you know, setting NBA records. And they go and turn around and became the Bad Boys and average 90 points a game. You look at the Celtics. Ray Allen never played defense in his life, neither did Paul Pierce.

GC: You go get Kevin Garnett and that changes.

LH: I think I kind of sense where you're going. You've made this comment before that it's dangerous for the Grizzlies to not make improvements, to think that this group is the group that can do it.

GC: I said that in the paper, yeah.

LH: I wouldn't disagree with that. But Jerry Colangelo used to say that people always want you to tear up your team because you didn't win a championship but there's only one champion. The objective is to be as successful as your talent will allow you.

GC: Right. And then get better talent the next year.

LH: And just keep trying to get better talent.

GC: When I made that point it was with respect to Hasheem Thabeet. I thought that part of the motivation for Hasheem was, listen, not necessarily that he was the best basketball player that you could have drafted there, but that he was a fit because you have guys that can't guard. So let's take a big guy and stick him there and maybe this will help. I thought that (approach) took for granted the fact that "We've got these guys." And so, instead of going to get whoever your view of the player most likely to make all-star games in the future, you drafted a piece to fit. And I didn't think this team was ready, or this core was good enough to be drafting that way. Your assessment of your core influences what you do going forward.

LH: I don't think anybody knew where we were. We had just had a little bit of success that year. As you go forward, you've got to give that group an opportunity to grow. Just like when I came in with Mike Conley. If we were going to make a decision with Mike Conley, I wanted it certainly to be a decision after we'd given him an opportunity to fail. And I don't think everybody else looked at it that way because I know that before I got here they were trying to trade him. And all of a sudden we found out that the kid could play a little bit, he could get better. So now we come to this year, he does get better. He takes a lot of criticism but he got better.

GC: Do you think that affects him?

LH: Sure. But I think, for Mike, the way the season started last year, with adding Zach and with adding AI, I think that in his mind he was supposed to retreat, that it was written in stone that this is the way it was going to be. Instead of saying, "No matter what they say, I'm going to try to show them." Once he started playing against him, then he saw that he should be competing. But it's only natural when you play with a great player like that.

GC: Back to the backcourt just for a minute. Is O.J. going to play in the summer league?

LH: He said he was going to. It remains to be seen if he will because it's not mandatory but I asked him at the end of the year and he said he would do that, he wanted to do that. And I want to do it for his benefit and for our benefit as an organization. Can he or can't he? He needs to know if he can, his people need to know if he can and we need to know. There's a lot of speculation. I have my opinion on it.

GC: Your opinion is he can't?

LH: Right.

GC: Why not?

LH: You see guys that are 6'2 or are 6'1 and they can never play the point. Why can't they play the point? It's the mentality of it. It's the mentality. O.J. has been a scorer his whole life. Now, can he at some time in the future? That's up to him and how he opens and grows mentally into the game. But the point guard has to make decisions for everybody else, not just yourself. The point guard has to know when to shoot and when to pass. Guys who play the two, they never think like that. They think the next shot is their shot.

GC: You played him a little bit -- you gave him a few minutes at the point, not a lot -- and he had some ball handling issues. You think it's more skills or more mentality? What's your reservation about it?

LH: It's both. You've got to have the mentality that when you get the ball, you're thinking pass. You're attacking but you're looking to see who's going to be open. When Steve Nash attacks, he's not attacking to score all the time.

GC: What does Derrick Rose do when he's attacking?

LH: And that's why Derrick Rose has a lot of growth left, because that's all Derrick Rose ever did.

GC: What's Dwyane Wade do? Isn't he one of those basketball player guys who you want the ball in his hands and figure good things will happen?

LH: All of those guys that can score, LeBron, Kobe, Joe Johnson, they all have their position but ultimately they have the ball in the hands at the end of the game. Most of the time, they're trying to make plays to score. There's a time when you can do that, we've done that with O.J. But through the whole course of the game, if you gave the ball to Joe Johnson through the whole course of the game, those other guys will never get off. And it happens even with Cleveland. When you give the ball to LeBron James the whole game, those other guys don't get opportunities.

GC: When you got here, you said you wanted to give Mike Conley a chance. Why not take the same approach with O.J. with minutes at the point during the season? Instead of asking him to miss USA basketball during the summer?

LH: He's not going to miss it. He's going to play the first two summer league games and be done. He's not going to play the whole summer league. He's going to come and take a couple games for yourself where you're playing for 40 minutes the point guard position.

GC: Are you doing this so he can prove to himself that he can't do it, more than for you to see whether he can do it?

LH: You said it: I gave him some minutes. So what I want to do is go out there and give him an opportunity to show whether he can or can't. Like I said, for his people, for us, so we can put it to rest.

GC: Would two games put it to rest? And you just said, "His people." It sounds like there's some pressure?

LH: No pressure for me. For him? I'm sure there's people telling him, "You're a point guard, you're a point guard." I think two games of 40 minutes will give you a barometer of where you are. And that's important. "OK, here we go. You want to play the point, here's this, this, this and this that you need to improve on. Can you do that? Do you want to do that?" Everybody thinks the point guard position is easier. They think the guys are smaller so he'll be able to score better than them. But that's not what the point guard is looking to do all the time. There's a balance.

GC: Are there things he could show you in those two games that would change your mind about him? Or would shape your view of him going forward? Is it just for him?

LH: It's for us, too. I want to see, are his ball handling skills good enough to be a point guard? Because a point guard is not just running up and down the court with nobody in front of you. Plus, you're in traffic a lot. Plus, you're running off pick and rolls. Can you make plays off the pick and roll without turning the ball over consistently? There's a whole lot that goes into it. Can you make the right pass to the right guy at the right time? There's a lot of nuances and some people have better feel for it. Dwyane Wade has a feel for making plays that Dwyane Wade didn't have when he first came into the league. But Dwyane Wade also can score against anybody.

GC: I think some of it with O.J. is that people see his physical limitations at the 2 so they want to make him a 1 because otherwise you're going to be overmatched at the 2.

LH: I understand that but it's easier said than done. And is that going to make us better?

GC: Who's your backup point guard next year?

LH: I don't know.

GC: Is he on the roster?

LH: No. We don't have any. All those guys are gone, they're all free.

GC: When it comes to the draft or any player acquisitions issues, what's your role? How much clout do you have?

LH: I don't have any clout. I have an opinion and a suggestion.

GC: How much do they listen to the opinion?

LH: Obviously, Mike makes the ultimate decision. So if he wants somebody then I have no opinion. If he's not sure, then my opinion matters. That's with the general manager as well. There's different types of situations. If we're talking about trading for player they'll call me and ask me if I like him. I'll say "yeah" or "nay." Now, they may leave it alone or they may say we think this guy can help us. And that's their opinion and that's their prerogative because they're over me. But I do get a chance to voice my opinion on almost everything.

GC: Was Hasheem a mistake?

LH: No.

GC: What's his upside?

LH: Let me ask you this, why do you think he's a mistake? Because he didn't have a good rookie year?

GC: Yeah. And because you watch him play and he can't catch the basketball. He cannot catch the basketball. That's why I think he's a mistake.

LH: Everybody would like to draft a player and have him be the greatest thing since sliced bread as soon as he steps on the court. It doesn't happen all the time. I played with Jim Paxson when he was a rookie. Jim Paxson was horrible. He shot air balls all the time, had no confidence, and he came back the next year and was a better player. He just kept getting better until he was an all-star, or close to one. Hasheem is so far away from being what we think he can be because everybody just exploited his size. And he got away with it in college because he gets to stand in the middle. If we had no illegal defense Hasheem would block a similar amount of shots in the pros than he did in college. But the fact that you've got to know when to be in the paint, know when to go, it's all a learning experience. The offense part, he's got a lot better. The game is still fast and quick and when you're not an offensive player you don't think that you're going to get the ball, a lot of times you don't want to get the ball. We're trying to take him to that level, too. But to say he's a bust after one year because, for whatever reason, I just think ...

GC: Well, I think, you look at his numbers. You look at the fact that the Rookie of the Year played right here in Memphis. Then there's a point guard in New Orleans who did pretty well ...

LH: Well, look where he was drafted, though.

GC: That even makes it worse. There's a point guard in Milwaukee that did pretty well.

LH: If Brandon Jennings didn't go 10 to Milwaukee he probably would have gone 20-something. People hated him.

GC:: But people would have been wrong. Your job is to be right, I hate to say it.

LH: This is what I'm going to say to you on that. If you say we should have taken someone else, that's cool, that's your opinion. But to say that ... is (James) Harden a bust?

GC: Bust? No.

LH: Is (Blake) Griffin a bust?

GC: No.

LH: Why not? Griffin didn't do (bleep).

GC: Well, he got hurt. He has a reason, he has an excuse.

LH: Well, what about Harden?

GC: Harden was a decent piece. Harden was on the court.

LH: And you don't think that Hasheem contributed to us winning?

GC: In one or two games.

LH: That's all? Just one or two?

GC: He was barely on the court.

LH: But even in those minutes that he was on the court, he changed momentum and affected other teams.

GC: You sent him to the D League.

LH: And you know what? I guarantee he won't be the last guy. You know why?

LH: I mean, the guy needs to play. And if we were a 16-win team, he would have played 30 minutes a night. And he would have had six or seven or eight rebounds, he would have had more blocked shots.

GC: Will he ever make an all-star game?

LH: I don't know. Can you ask that question about everybody in our starting lineup?

GC: But you want your No. 2 pick to be a guy of whom you can say, "Yeah, he might make an all-star game some day."

LH: Well, if he continues to improve and becomes the shot blocker and the rebounder he has the potential to be he will. But Zach Randolph was in the league for ten years or whatever and he never made an all-star game and he averaged 20 and 10 three times.

GC: Here's the other thing that bothers people about Hasheem. They don't get the sense that he wants to be great. From the outside, he seems to take a very casual approach to the game. Even you have questioned his intensity at different times.

LH: We have the same issue with the majority of our team. It's the new wave of player. It's not as important to these players anymore. They're already going to get paid. They're going to get a second contract before they're the player that they're going to be. So what's the motivation for you to go out there and bust your (butt) extra? We set up times before practice for guys to work and we set up times after practice for guys to work. Why do we have to set times? Because none of them will be in gym once that two-hour block of practice is over. They're not going to come early unless you make them, they're not going to stay late. That's the whole group, that's around the NBA. There's very few where you see guys like LeBron is in the gym four hours before a game. That's the exception, that's not the rule. We're dealing with a whole new group of young people who think they're entitled to stardom and money just because they've gone through the process. And it takes a few years to get them to play together and understand it's not about your numbers or his numbers but about the team's wins and losses and going out there and playing every night.

GC: Who gets that on your team?

LH: Marc (Gasol) is probably the No. 1 guy that gets it. And No. 2 would be right there, Mike Conley. They're 1 and 1A.

GC: Does it say something about American basketball that the guy who gets it better than anyone else is from Spain?

LH: It says a lot about our society and how there's no growth, there's no starting here and working your way up. As soon as one of these kids shows that he can score a little bit or can dunk on somebody or is faster than everybody, he's elevated to another level. And from that point on, he's allowed to do things or not do things that everybody else doesn't get. Look at the mid-majors. Why do they have such success against those high-powered schools? They have a higher skill level, they play together as a team, they stay around. Why would John Wall ever think about making a sacrifice for Kentucky? Why would (Eric) Bledsoe, why would (Demarcus) Cousins? There's no reason. "I'm only here for one reason, I'm going to be here for one year, I'm going to try to score as many points as I can so I can be drafted as high as I can." What does that say? Now he comes to the NBA and he wants to be a star, he gets drafted 1, 2, 3, 4, whatever it is. And now he goes to a team, and they've already got a lot of pieces, and they just want you to come and fit in. He wants to come in and be the man. Whoever it is, I'm not talking about John Wall personally, whoever it is. And now they're struggling and they're fighting the game and the media is saying, "Well, you should be doing this, you did this in college, and how come you're not doing this here?" So now he's going out and he wants to show everybody that he can. But he doesn't help the team win. And that's why you have to give Oklahoma City credit, they have great chemistry. But they also have a pecking order. Durant is the man, there's no question in anybody's mind that he's the man.

GC: What's your pecking order?

LH: We don't have one.

GC: Can you win without a pecking order?

LH: Yeah, if everybody is willing to make sacrifices. I think Zach is probably our pecking order. And then Rudy and O.J. are 2 and 2a, depending on the night. But all those guys made sacrifices. Rudy made great sacrifices, O.J. made great sacrifices, to allow the guy who helped us make the biggest improvement get established. Once he was established, they just felt in line. They knew he was the man who was going to butter the bread. So we do have a slight pecking order. But when you have a group of nothing but young players, that's a fight every day.

GC: So are you going to add veteran this offseason? Or just kids? You've got three firsts.

LH: I don't know what we're going to do. I really don't. I can't sit here and say, "We're going to do this, this and this." I just told them what I felt like our needs were.

GC: Shooters?

LH: We need a backup point guard, we need another 2/3 that's got size and length, we need a stretch 4 or, if not a stretch 4, another 4 that's athletic and can play above the rim, that can block shots and rebound, maybe even play some 5.

GC: Do you have any minutes at the 5?

LH: See, that's the other thing that hurts Hasheem. We play in the West. As soon as the game starts, everybody goes small. We've tried at different times and stayed with it and it's been effective for us, but you can't count on it every night. You play Portland, they take everybody out of the game and they play with Juwan Howard at 5 and Brandon Roy at 4, and they've got Andre Miller and (Martell) Webster and back then they had (Steve) Blake. And they're playing all these guys in the game. You can't play the way you want. The San Antonio Spurs found that up with the Suns these last two weeks. You can try all you want. They kept trying and those guys just kept torching them. Whoever they put (Tim) Duncan on, that was on the perimeter, he scored.

GC: You can say all you want about "dictating the game" but when they're dictating threes in your face it's no fun?

LH: It's not fun at all. You play New Orleans, they play David West at 5. Houston. All these teams. So it really restricts the amount of time you can play Hasheem. Even when Marc is playing, to keep Marc and Zach on the court at the same time is difficult. Marc made tremendous improvements in being able to go out and play some of the 4s. He even guarded Nowitzki, which allowed us to play him and Zach together. But if you can't guard that guy, you can't play those guys together.

GC: How often do you talk to Mike Heisley?

LH: Not very often.

GC: You joked about your negotiations with Mike. He tends to take a hard line. One of his quotes was something like, "If he gets a better offer, I'll pat him on the back and wish him well." With Rudy, he says he'll match anything. Were you disappointed, given the pretty darn successful run you've had here, that he said "Godspeed if you find a better offer, Lionel?"

LH: Well, if that were the case then I would have been allowed to be a free agent. That didn't happen. I don't think they wanted me to go out and get a better offer. If they had, they would have let my contract run out. They wanted that deal done. But, listen, disappointed is the wrong word. This is a business. Mike made a good comment to me. He said, "I don't begrudge you trying to get as much as you can. That's what you should be trying to do. And now that this negotiation is over, I don't have any animosity at all toward what you were trying to do." And I feel the same way about Mike.

GC: Why did you have Nikki Tinker represent you?

LH: She's a labor lawyer.

GC: She's sort of a controversial figure in town.

LH: But not with what we were doing.

GC: I was just wondering. You had an agent previously.

LH: I started out without an agent. I wasn't getting any job interviews so I went out and got one. I got job interviews, I still didn't get a job, but I still had to pay. And, then, the last two jobs I got, I got on my own. He didn't even do the negotiations. I just decided it was best for me in my situation to just get someone to negotiate the contract versus paying someone four percent. Why am I going to pay four percent when I can pay a lawyer hourly. And Nikki is a labor relations lawyer and some of that intrigued me as well. I thought she did a good job. It was very spirited between her and Stan (Meadows). I think that he gained respect for her over time. But it was simple. I didn't even think it was going to take as long as it took.

GC: When Tony Dungy came to town, you went to see him, you met with him, and then you talked about the need to filter out whatever thoughts you had about the game on the way to the postgame press conference. You are gracious to media generally, but after games you're the toughest that there's been here. There's no question. People didn't want to ask you questions, because you lay into them. Including Jarvis (Greer), of all people. Is that a failing on your part? Or what's happening there?

LH: I'm a competitor. It is something I have to grow on because most of the media are just trying to do their jobs. This is what I tell (media relations director) Dustin (Krugel), though: "Dustin, you need to put out a memo or a directive. If you want to ask me about the game, ask me about the game. If you want to ask me about somebody on an individual basis, call me tomorrow." You know, I'm in a press conference and somebody says, "Do you think Hasheem is a bust?" That's going to get me worked up right away. Or, "Do you think you can trade Mike Conley?" That kind of stuff really irks me. Or, like, the one guy, one night said, "This is just unacceptable. You had two days off and you come out here and play like this." They beat us! What the hell are you talking about? I resent that remark. They beat us. Two days, eight days, anyway you look at it, that team could have come in here and beaten us the way they beat us tonight. That's just basketball. You want to say it's an unacceptable performance?

GC: It feels like to me, honestly, that you feel like people are driving at something with their questions. It feels like you are anticipating where they are going with it, and so you're answering that question, and it's ticking you off.

LH: This is something I don't like. I don't like to be quoted and then have someone take three words, four words, out of my quote and put it in their story. And it's happened many times. In fact, that's what got me fined 25 grand. The guy wasn't even in the press room and said that I had an issue with the officials because Hasheem didn't get calls. If he had been in the press room, he would have known I was joking about the whole thing. And having been in the league as a player and a coach for as long as I have, there's a lot of guys that come innocent, that aren't innocent. Ric Bucher, out in San Francisco, everybody's gone, he comes back and starts chit-chatting, and then he throws out, "Didn't you feel like Allen Iverson wouldn't work? Didn't you know that?" And I was like, "Ric, I'm not going there. When I write a book, you can read about how I felt." And I knew where Ric was going. It would have been on national TV the next day. But he thought he could butter me up by being sweet and then asking a nice, innocent question in the quiet after the storm. I take a lot of criticism for how I answer questions, well, you know, a writer has a prerogative to ask whatever question he wants and I have the prerogative to answer it the way I want to answer it.

GC: You do. I'm not sure it serves you well. If you're winning, that's fine.

LH: I had to apologize to Jarvis, though. I cut him two or three times. It's just like, "Jarvis, you ask the dumbest questions every time. It's so obvious and you think it's the greatest question known to man."

GC: Putting up with us idiots is part of the job.

LH: I thought as the season wore on I did get a little better. I still had moments, but I thought I got better. Even before the games, I hate talking to (sideline guy Rob) Fischer and I hate talking to (radio voice) Eric (Hasseltine). I (bleeping) hate it.

GC: And it's nothing against them.

LH: I hate the questions. And then I answer the questions, and I get letters from fans that say, "I can't believe you're building up the other team that way, talking about how great they are. You should be focused on our team." They don't understand. That's how the pregame radio show is. I'm talking about why this other team is a viable opponent. But this is what I really hate. Someone will ask, "What do you think what Oklahoma City did?" I'll say, "Well, they did a great job, they got on the boards, they got out and ran, they turned us over and Kevin Durant was super. You know, he was shooting threes and driving to the basket. He really hurt us." The next question: "How did Kevin Durant hurt you tonight?" I'm already pissed off because he did torch us, and I've graciously given him his due, and now you come back and ask again.

GC: And yet every coach deals with it. Mike Fratello was no charmer but people didn't fear Mike Fratello the way they do you.

LH: Why do people fear me?

GC: I say fear, but it's ...

LH: No, no, that's not the first time it's been said to me. It's not even fear, it's intimidation. Who the hell am I to be able to intimidate anybody? I think too many people in society today are afraid to voice their opinion or say what they want to say out of intimidation.

GC: Do you take pride in how you handled the Iverson thing? You clearly were right. And the way you handled it was right.

LH: I do take pride in not beating Allen up. It's not my job to judge him. It's my job to figure out what's best for our team. I also told him in our meeting that I would never publicly beat him up in the media. In fact, Stephen A. Smith, I just talked to him on Friday, and he brought up Allen. I said, "It just didn't work." And that was it. You can analyze it any way you want, should we, was it a mistake, whatever. Everybody's had their opinion on that. But I told Allen, "I don't claim to be the best coach or the smartest coach. I've been a part of a lot of winning both as a player and as a coach and I know what it takes to win. And that's all I care about. If you got an issue with that, you got an issue with that. But that's how I feel." I just don't think that a lot of these players have any idea what respect is. I gave him his respect. He didn't think I did. He said I never talked to him? He didn't want to talk. Just like Jamaal Tinsley. Jamaal's people would call up and say, "You've got to talk to him, he's struggling, he doesn't know his role." I'm like, "that's BS." He didn't want to accept his role. That's when they go out and start talking that crap. I've been a player, I know how guys react. It has nothing to do with whether they've being communicated with, whether they're being coddled, whatever.

GC: It's what's being communicated to them.

LH: You have to be honest. They'll hate your guts for what you tell 'em but they'll hate your guts because you're honest. And that's all you can do. That's what I try to do with all the guys. Rudy Gay and I go at it. O.J. Mayo and I go at it. Mike Conley doesn't ever talk back to me, but I get on him pretty good. And I get on Marc pretty good. I get on Zach. Zach doesn't usually talk back either. Or Marc. But, in the end, all those guys will come back and say, "You were right." They don't want to admit it in front of their peers and I'm a firm believer that you can't always say something in private. At some point, the other guys have to know that you're going to hold people accountable. And that's just the way it is and they don't like it. They don't like to be called out, they don't like to be yelled at. My job as a coach is to make them go further than they think they can go and give more than they think they can give.

GC: I know you're a reader. Are you going to be able to read this summer? What are you reading now?

LH: No, way past that. "Pillars of the Earth." And there's a sequel to that, "World without End." I'm not a self-help book reader. I mean, I have Dungy's book and stuff. I like Tony Dungy. But I can't read self-help books. I read Pat Riley's book. I know Pat Riley.

GC: So much of it just seems like packaging.

LH: Right. That's why I can't read all that stuff. Everybody's kind of doing the same thing.

GC: So you're not going to be writing "Lionel Hollins's Keys to Turning a Franchise Around?"

LH: No. I have this friend, he's a gospel pianist. He's always texting me, "Save your notes, you've got to write a book, you've got a heck of a story." My life is a heck of a story. But I'm not sure that me writing a book is going to help anybody else's life be better, or that what I have to say would work for everybody else. They have to do what is best for them. When I mentor, I tell kids all the time, "All you want is an example of somebody who has done it, who looks like you and comes from where you are. Then you have to do it on your own."

GC: When you mentor, what's the central message you tell kids?

LH: It doesn't matter where you come from, what your life has been like. There comes a point when your past is your past and you're in control of what you do in the future. Everybody has a story. You watch any awards show, you talk to any successful person, and they'll tell you all the stuff they had to overcome to get to where they are. You go and talk to anybody that's failed or any bum and they'll tell everything that was in their way that kept them from succeeding. The choice is yours. You can talk about what you've overcome or what kept you from succeeding.