Birthers, Truthers and Deathers

Osama in Hell - Day 6

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Birthers, Truthers and Deathers, Oh My!

One of the things I find amazing about people is their propensity to take an issue, dissect it, cut it up in little pieces and then decide there has to be some kind of conspiracy behind it. The JFK assassination is a case in point. When I was in the U.S. Navy, back in the early 70s, I was of the opinion that Lee Harvey Oswald was a pawn, "a patsy" as he indicated he was in film of that era. I remember some rare words of wisdom that came from my father that day on November 22, 1963. "Just wait...people are going to make a mountain out of a molehill on this entire thing now. They are going to turn it into something that it isn't and just ignore the facts of the case." I was stunned by this comment. Not just because it came from my father. But, because he was so damn right (a rarity for him) about this. The JFK Assassination developed into something of a cottage industry over the years. They have conventions, seminars, tours of Dealy Plaza in Dallas, untold numbers of books and speeches given. All these people who bought into this failed to ask one basic question; how could this conspiracy be carried out with so many people responsible for the President's well-being (even back in those days)? They could have saved themselves some money.

The Birthers are not in a good mood lately because the long form birth certificate was finally presented. Predictably, it was cast as a hoax because it was "layered." I'm assuming people who say this have never used OCR software. Layers are common software scanning byproducts. But, they won't buy that either. Truthers must have their own special place in hell awaiting them. To assume some of the outright supernatural, mumbo-jumbo they believe in borders on insanity. I never understood why it was impossible to believe that jet engine fuel can ignite hot enough to melt steel beams arranged in such a way that they would all collapse on one another. Never let a good conspiracy theory go to waste, I suppose.

But, more in tune with current events, we now have something, apparently, called "Deathers" who do not believe Osama bin Laden is dead. None of the evidence convinces them "Unless they can see photgraphic evidence of a dead Osama bin Laden." Does anyone really think that photographic evidence will convince this new "Deather Movement" that Bin Laden is dead? Video of burial at sea could be a total fake. So could any photographic evidence be considered likewise. President Obama did himself no favors by producing that long form birth certificate. That just added more fuel to the fire for birthers. He caved in to Donald Trump. Instead of coming out looking like a winner, he looks like a loser. To the Democrats, liberals and socialists, he appears the victim of a "...vast, right-wing conspiracy." Now, Obama has stated he is not going to allow the horrific pictures of a dead Osama bin Laden be published. For one thing, if there are pictures of this, they will find their way into the press somehow. Money talks and....well, you know what walks. If enough money is put up, these pictures of Osama will find their way into the press. But, I believe even before this happens, President Obama will back down, once again, and allow those pictures to be published. The pressure is building. When the pressure gets too great, Obama either leaves town or backs down. I predict the latter of the two this time.

What is not being said about this new Deather Movement is that they have a belief that President Obama orchestrated this entire incident, involving U.S. Navy Seals, the CIA, FBI, NSA and other covert agencies that don't even have a name (and I learned during my time in the Navy's Top Secret Units that there are such agencies). He did this, if you believe the Deathers, to lift up his poll numbers that were in danger of going below 40% for a President who is going to face an excruciating campaign battle for his reelection bid in 2012. Announcing that "he" (as he basically did last Sunday night) was pleased to announce that Osama bin Laden has been killed by special forces of the U.S. military. President Obama used "I" a few too many times in that announcement Sunday night. It appeared as if "he" went to Pakistan, machine-gunned Osama bin Laden and flew the helicopter out of there.

I thought at that time some people were going to use that ("I")against him. It's not all about Obama. That has been his problem since he campaigned for President. His overinflated ego is a problem for him. It reared its ugly head Sunday night in what should have been a stream of words of appreciation to the U.S. military who have suffered and died for almost ten years since September 11, 2001. But, that is not the Obama way. It's all about him. So, in addition to dealing with birthers, now President Obama will have to deal with Deathers who do not believe bin Laden is dead. It doesn't matter that al-Qaida has now announced that Osama bin Laden is dead. It doesn't matter that thousands in the Middle East are protesting about the "illegal killing of Osama." All that matters is that another fringe movement was born this week. This time, I believe they probably consist of both elements of birthers and truthers. "Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive." That may well be the motto of the Deathers.

The main point I want to make here; isn't it time to move on? I seriously doubt there is anyone who dislikes Obama and everything he stands for more than me. But, focusing on the bizarre, the conspiracy behind every corner is nonsense. Believe it or not, you are helping President Obama with a second term by coming up with these "theories." And, that is exactly what they are; theories. Do I think he has violated the U.S. Constitution with Obamacare? Yes. That is not a theory, however. It is an opinion, an opinion shared by many other people far smarter than I am. The Deather Movement may have a double meaning in the months to come. If we continue down this slippery slope of accusing Obama of everything under the sun, he becomes the victim. Those that oppose Obama will look like extremists. The Republican Party and the Tea Party won back the House because they were able to convince one group of voters they were not extremists. That group, of course, are the independent voters. We lose the independent vote...game over.

Birthers, Truthers and Deathers

Birthers, Truthers and DeathersThis hub discusses mostly on the new "Deathers Movement" which is does not believe Osama bin Laden is actually dead. I make comparisons to birthers, truthers and deathers combined.

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AUTHOR

Writer David

7 years agofrom Mobile, AL

Tom, the Left has nowhere to go but come across with the race card. It use to bother me. But, not any longer.

Vinsanity and LuLu, thanks for your comments. I appreciate you visiting one of my hubs.

vinsanity

7 years ago

Personally, I think that there is too much violence and corruption in the world. It is getting to the point where a select few people run the world. That makes it difficult for everyone in the world to get what they want.

LULU SUE1987

7 years ago

These are all interesting and controversail subjects. Very interesting.

tom hellert

7 years agofrom home

Jt,

when you said this to David "However, this comment of yours may in-fact, show that you are a bit racist yourself. So, I UNDESTAND english pretty well but-Then you say to David-"I wasn't actually accusing you of being a racist, I was just saying that it seemed racist. "I have a severely compromised short term memory but I remembered what YOU said how couldnt you remember it???... Sorry j

I can't really trust anything else you could say... Are you running for office as a democrat???..When you outright contradict YOURSELF!!! Don't try that ol trick aboutI wasnt saying your a racist you just sounded like one- WHats the difference? I'm not calling someone an idiot someone just sounds like one... Do you think that make someone will feel like I didn't just call someone an idiot??? pLEASE-DONT PEE ON MY HEAD AND TELL ME ITS RAINING...i AM SOMETHING THAT STARTS WITH an R ITS REALIST NOT racist

wRITE ON DAVID...

TH

"

AUTHOR

Writer David

7 years agofrom Mobile, AL

jtler,

Then what kind of litmus test would you need to prove that Obama has racist feelings about whites? Do you expect me to provide you with a quote where he states, "I am a racist?" He's not stupid. The problem is that all the Obama supporters have placed him on a pedestal where he is considered saintly and god-like. He is not perfect. There are white racists, black racists, brown racists, yellow racists all over the world. Some are not quite so overt as the extremists (KKK and New Black Panther Party). Obama grew up in an era when white racism was considered the norm. I believe he still harbors deep resentment toward whites due to this. He even denounced his white grandmother as having racist beliefs http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/2008/03/obama_...

Obama is not pure as the driven snow is white. He is human. As a human being, he has faults just as we all do. And I did not pick two or three things that could be conveyed as his racist feelings, jtyler. I provided more and I can provide even more if you want them. But, you can believe what you want about him. He is going to fail you someday and I don't know if you are white, black, brown or whatever. It doesn't matter. Obama is not the second coming.

jtyler

7 years ago

First of all, I wasn't actually accusing you of being a racist, I was just saying that it seemed racist. Second, there still is no real reason to believe Obama is racist. He is a good president and a good person. He wasn't bragging when he saved those auto companies from bankruptsy despite what others have said, he successfully killed Bin Laden, and his policies are mostly good in general. Not everything he's done is perfect, but neither is everything else other presidents have done. I believe you took that last quote out of context. I can see what it would mean in the context it was originally used in (if I'm correct about that). Even if you can pick two or three things that 'seem' racist, you can't go as far as to claim that them man is truly racist.

AUTHOR

Writer David

7 years agofrom Mobile, AL

jtler, of course I am racist. Of course I am. I should never had stated that the white policeman who arrested my professor friend "acted stupidly." I should not pander to all whites to vote for me as president. My wife stated she is finally proud of America for voting me, a white man, in office. My pastor of 20 years, a noted racist and making racist rants against blacks, and someone i claim I never heard make a racist remark. so, I am a proud racist. In my book, Dreams of my father, I mention Frank Marshall Davis, a noted racist and my mentor, who I pattern myself after. Yes, I am a racist. As a senator, I introduced a bill that created a study intended to analyze the race of people who are stopped for traffic violations. So, yes, I am a racist. As a senator, I even voted against legislation that would have exempted gang members from being eligible for the death penalty if they killed someone to “help their gang.” I am a racist. My church, Trinity United Church of Christ passed a resolution in 2001 supporting reparations. I am a racist. As an ACORN attorney, I supported the reparations ideology. I am a racist. I nominated someone for the US Supreme Court who stated, "a wise Latina woman… would more often than not reach a better conclusion than a white male” So, yes, I am a racist.

Any other questions, jtyler?

jtyler

7 years ago

On what grounds do you assume that Obama hates whites? There is no logical basis that would support this conclusion. Every president gets votes against him, and nobody really likes it, but it's a part of the job. Assuming that Obama's racist because he's black is ridiculous. There is no reason to believe Obama is racist. However, this comment of yours may in-fact, show that you are a bit racist yourself.

AUTHOR

Writer David

7 years agofrom Mobile, AL

It seems I recall Obama saying, in his acceptance speech, where he also thanked those who did not vote for him. I noticed, just for an instant, he seemed to be a bit miffed. I thought at that time he is very thin skinned. He said he wanted to earn their trust (the millions who voted against him). But, I did not believe him then and still don't believe him. I do believe, in his heart, Obama still harbors deep racial hatred for Caucasians. He has not forgotten those who voted against him. I'll say this, and I hope history does not prove me wrong...the Obama we have seen in his first term will not be the Obama we will see in his second term (assuming he is reelected). I fear we will LONG for the Obama of 2008-2012 if he is reelected. I won't say why right now. But, I hope I am completely wrong about him. He must be defeated. No ifs, ands or buts about it.

JON EWALL

7 years agofrom usa

tom hellert

TH it's all kid stuff. The ones calling are the biggest racist who hide behind the bushes.

A family member joined the army ( 18years young ) out of high school. Many times in mess line (always 2 or more ) pushed themselves( intimidation) in front of him. Needless to say he reacted and later had mess duties. He was a regular in mess duties, he whipped up a lot of guys.He wasn't a racist, he just didn't take no s...t from the racist Why is it, you never hear the other side use the word or phase in any worthwhile discussion?

jtyler

7 years ago

The whole birthers thing is quite ridiculous. I have written a hub about that if you're interested in reading it. Good hub, by the way.

tom hellert

7 years agofrom home

All,

The problem with Obama and the prolitariot is the fact that Too many people are drinking the Koolaid -especially the guilt and white guilt flavors-Obama and hissupporters have done a masterful job of makin any of the whites who did not vote for Barry feel like racists.. i know folks who are known solid GOP types-were afraid to say the voted for McCain for being called racists-

that along wit the obvious intimidation of voters by the Black Panthers - that no one wants to admit because IF you do...YOUR A RACIST... intimidation does not have to be overt- It can be covert too...such as intimidation.

Back in High School we had one of the few semi-intigrated schools-we had a bunch of African American students (AA), the Aa students were on alot of the sports teams i listened to rap music and would talk about it in gymn and art classes with them.

So I went to one basketball game in my whole high School career, it was an away game- One of the white guys from the other school hit one of our AA players calling him the N word and worse-eventually there was a physical set of altercations after the game....I saw one of our guys getting worked on by two of their players so I ran over there and totally clocked the one guy I nearly knocked him out- he was down for quite a while. but his three buddies started attacking mer and the guy I helped that was tough but we were back to back and fought all 3 off till the rest of the guys and teachers/administrators arrived to break it up- arrived - I went back on the players bus-as a non player we told stories about the fight- i was given "propps" for totally Ko-ing that kid...

but now because I don't believe in a certain Aa's socialism i am back to being a racist or if I ascribe potentially dubious motives to the black panthers in military garb and night sticks-"keeping the peace"- I am a racist... Evidently my personal past is excluded- but my skin color and politics is allencompassing...

i "dated" an aa girl for a little bit in college but it was her freinds who made her feel- "like a sell out" not mine so she said good bye....

so somehow I am the racisrt because I oppose BHO and he or Sharpton or Jackson said if I do I am a racist... Screw that...

TH

TH

AUTHOR

Writer David

7 years agofrom Mobile, AL

Jon, it seems Obama is affiliated with far too many leftist groups. He stated prior to becoming President he wanted to do away with such labels as red state, blue state, conservative and liberal by bringing everyone together. Well, you are known by the company you keep. He surrounds himself with leftists, socialists and outright communists such as Van Jones. He's a hypocrite. But, that doesn't make him any different from any other politician. What sets Obama apart is that he tries to pretend he is different. He is not.

JON EWALL

7 years agofrom usa

Writer David

In Chicago he was a NEIGHORHOOD ORGANIZER affiliated with the Acorn group.Same group procecuted for voter registration fraud in the last presidential election.

Alem Belton

7 years agofrom New York

I agree with Writer, Obama can get back in, because America is full of people who will believe anything the government tells them is the truth.

AUTHOR

Writer David

7 years agofrom Mobile, AL

upal19,

Our country is noted for voting in lying politicans (lying politicians is redundant, I know). I think people expect politicians to lie to us. That is a sad commentary on the state of American politics. Whatever lies Obama has made, it's not going to hurt him. I think he can be beaten quite easily. The problem is that Republicans don't have a candidate that they can gather around and support. I don't expect to see a runaway election in either direction. It's going to be a close one...again.

Brent Stone,

Little is said of a religion that is based on sex. How can Islam get by that without the news media...oh...never mind. Islam is another victim that the leftists love to play with as much as possible. Osama is dead as judas iscariot. In fact, they are probably sharing a room on the ground floor of hell as I type.

AUTHOR

Writer David

7 years agofrom Mobile, AL

Tom, I'll get even with you. Don't worry...hehehe.

Naomi's Banner,

I wouldn't be too sure that Obama won't be reelected. He is an even better politician than Bill Clinton. He is a professional politician. I'm not saying that is a good thing. I'm not. The man has never held a job in the private sector. I'm not sure how someone like that has any idea how to create jobs. So, expect unemployment to hover around 9-10%.

Brent Stone

7 years ago

Either way dead or alive, Osama is no longer able to have input into his organization. It is a mute point really...as unfortunately the beast is operating without a head. There are plenty of zealots wanting to take his place. If he is dead...I wonder if he got his 70 virgins.

Ashraf Mir

7 years agofrom Dhaka

Druhepkins, He lied to the nation, waged war and ultimately undermined nation's economy. Now the consequences go to his successor. Pity on him.

Naomi's Banner

7 years agofrom United States

Honestly folks it is so hard to know what to believe anymore with "fake" being so easy to do but really folks does it really matter anymore...? Obama messed himself over so bad he isn't getting re-elected no matter how much money he 'gives' and spends. He is toast. He has done his damage that I believe he intended to do and at this point we are left picking up the pieces.

I am extrememly curious though....why didn't they save the body to study it a little further and gain the concrete proof everyone was dieing for. What was the purpose of throwing the body at sea and not bringing it back. We have never done that before...dont get it. Argue all you want about who will be president next its anybodies guess at this point...Trump may try to buy his way in but many have gone that route before and didn't make it Palen has probably lost her shot a long time ago and Huckabee who very well could have brought back a sense of integrity to the White House is not running soo...there ya have it. Hillary has the best chance ever to run and get it and at this point even though I am a staunch repulican I'm not sure that is a bad thing. wow can't believe I just said that one. Anyway, here we are disalutioned and getting worse by the day with our country. We have truely gone full circle to what we left in England. We really need to get the control of our government back to the people. Good Day!

tom hellert

7 years agofrom home

WD,

everyone gets cranky now and then- could be that time of the month for folks LOL- sorry D just bustin chops on ya.

TH

i know grow up tom grow up

JON EWALL

7 years agofrom usa

tHErEDpILL

You can believe it is FAKE, he was born in ?????

and he is a muslin!

Alem Belton

7 years agofrom New York

It's cool, I sounded a little crude too. I guess we will see what happens in the future. But I will be back if we get concrete proof that the birth certificate is fake! :)

AUTHOR

Writer David

7 years agofrom Mobile, AL

ED, I apologize if I sounded rather crude in that last reply. I'm just tired of all the conspiracy talk. I mean, REALLY tired of it. I understand you have your reasons for thinking as you do. I just don't see it or believe in it. To each his own. Again, my apologies also.

AUTHOR

Writer David

7 years agofrom Mobile, AL

ED...whatever,

First, I'm not your bro. Second, you must not have read my hub or just glanced over it. Nowhere did I say there was nothing "fishy" about Obama and the BC. My main emphasis in this hub is that it is all a waste of time when conservatives should be using that energy to focus on defeating Obama in 2012. As for Osama, I'm not going to waste my breath. I have little tolerance for Birthers and Truthers. I have even less for Deathers. I hope you get my subtle message there.

Alem Belton

7 years agofrom New York

Writer David do you know much about history? I apologize if I sound rude but we have been lied to many times before. To keep it in the last 20 years Nixon, Clinton, and Bush all lied to our faces. Do I need to quote the lies?

Alem Belton

7 years agofrom New York

Wow bro, really? If you believe that their is nothing fishy about Obama waiting forever to produce his birth certificate after he said he "didn't have time to find it" and Hawaii said it was lost, then you sir are lost as well. As for Osama, I hope your kidding when you say you believe this story. Honestly please read one of my hub, you might benefit from my hub titled "The Tube" I can't keep repeating myself it's easier to just read the hub.

druhepkins

7 years ago

Oh boy, I used to work for SEIU lol. Anyway David, personally I don’t hate Bush either. I actually find him likeable; I just think he was in over his head and may not understand the magnitude of what he did. You also have to look at it from and INTERNATIONAL perspective. He invaded a country that had nothing to do with anything, murdered its leader and his sons, which also resulted in the deaths of thousands of US soldiers and thousands of Iraqi citizens. All of this after he confirmed there were WMD’s and there weren’t any. This is fact and there is simply no way to minimize this, or try to match it up against Obama somehow. Sure, all politicians lie, and almost have to, to some degree. But a man can lie to his wife about going fishing instead of working late. Or he could be lying that he has a child with another mistress out of state. There are different degrees of lies, some may be criminal.

It just doesn’t stop with Bush. He also stunted scientific and technological progression stopping stem cell research and research in to alternative energies that would help liberate us from our oil consumption. Michael J. Fox and several activists of varying causes began to turn on him because he was misguided and standing in the way of science and progress.

His agenda also intended us to march into the Middle East for oil all along. War that he knew would cost billions daily. Our surplus evaporated. He’s a rich oil man, and he’d do whatever he needed to for the interests of his inner circle of pals and himself. He even stopped the prototype for the electric car. Bush also has a peculiar relationship with the Saudis. Bush is reviled internationally.

There was always more justifiable reasons to object to Bush than Obama. With Obama, it’s just a disagreement of direction and policy. And nothing that even failed yet, just a battle of premature opinions. Bush however is shrouded in death, war, oil, squander, and changed the world for the worst. His resentment is not unfair like the birth certificate fiasco or having to prove he’s Christian etc, it’s largely his own doing, and after he left office.

As for Obama, I don’t think we’re too far apart on that. I too respect him, but don’t always agree with him. I have both conservative and liberal views. However, I don’t think I’d be pleased with any of the characters attempting to be presidential lately either and I truly believe he’s the best option at the moment. I think he has class, he’s articulate, deliberate in his actions and I respect him. He was a young president with things to learn, but I always felt he was competent and a great ambassador for the country.

And thank you about the immigration hub. It’s an issue many choose to step away from. I’ll definitely find your hub about it and share my thoughts.

AUTHOR

Writer David

7 years agofrom Mobile, AL

druhepkins,

I don't see anyone calling President Obama a war criminal, a nazi or other names that I can't say on this hub. This is just some of the adjectives used in describing W by Code Pink, SEIU, and other leftwing groups. I think many people like Obama, the man. But, they hate his leftist ideology. I hate his view for this country. As far as lies go, Obama the Democratic Nominee said he would close Guantanamo (I support his not closing it). He said he would push for comprehensive immigration reform in his first year (again, I am glad this didn't happen...or ever will), he stated he would cut the national debt in half by his second year in office (not going to happen). My point is that all politicians lie, including President Obama.

Is Obama loved in the Middle East right now? Burning him in effigy in Pakistan. You think the people in the ME like him now that OBL has been taken out? Not if you believe what you read in the news media (which, granted, I take with a very large grain of salt). My reasons for not supporting Obama has nothing to do with him being our first black president. It has everything to do with his ideology. I simply can't find common ground on ever supporting someone as far left as he is politically. I respect him, but solely because he is the President of the United States. But, that sure as hell doesn't mean I can't castigate him for policies and principles that run counter to all that I believe in as a conservative. We'll just have to agree to disagree on him. I appreciate and respect your position. I just disagree.

On another note, I briefly read your most excellent hub on illegal immigration. When I get time, I intend to read it all and comment. I would like to get your reaction to my ideas of ending illegal immigration completely. This is m co-number one issue (along with the national debt) for this coming election year.

druhepkins

7 years ago

Hi Jon Ewall,

I’m not talking about Obama’s politics. Nor am I denying the democrats used to control the majority that enabled them to hold the chips and pass things through. But that doesn’t mean it was a quick and painless walk in the park. I’m simply saying there was much more ease and public decorum in pushing things through for Bush than Obama and that’s the undeniable truth.

Bush had little resistance from anyone even when the decisions were atrocious. He made decisions that benefited Oil companies with which he had ties, harmed the environment, created more debt, went to war and we let him do it all. You say Obama doesn’t listen to what the people want, but many of the things Bush passed weren’t what the people wanted either, including his election.

I’m not writing as an Obama fanatic, I’m an Independent making a clear observation. Obama resistance started before he sat down in the Oval Office. People who normally didn’t even have a clue about politics or current events were out protesting “Obama care” and a host of other things charged and sent out by right wing propaganda machines.

I’m just simply saying Obama had a rougher time than Bush selling anything. Of course he did Jon, it’s not propaganda. The man even had to schedule a special event for the American people just to prove he’s a legitimate American allowed to pass anything through.

Obama and the Democrat majority CONTROLLED Congress passed everything while they had 100% control of the government.

TRY TO GET BY THE WHITEHOUSE PROPERGANDA!

druhepkins

7 years ago

Obama didn’t release the long form at first because of integrity. The President of the United States who has been background checked to the highest degree and sworn in legitimately as Commander In Chief shouldn’t cater to such foolishness and baseless conspiracies. However, with Trump going all out on the issue, he was feeding the Birthers. Trump is one of the richest and most well known in our country who also gave the appearance that he was running---and he put a huge spotlight on him. Obama had no choice, on a national stage he was called out. To remain indignant and not produce the additional long form would inadvertently add more fuel to the issue and make him look even more suspicious. Even people who never believed it would start saying “why doesn’t he just show it!” And so he had to. It didn’t empower Trump at all. It made him look like a grandstanding bully, and factory of schemes and non issues. No politician with class would push the issue and ask the US president to show his ID when he himself knew he was a citizen.

As for Bush, I don’t think Bush is the most disrespected president, but I agree he’s definitely is the most disliked. But a lot of it is justifiable, some very serious things happened on his watch. We believed him and let him lie to us about everything, including stealing an election and lying about weapons of mass destruction. We went to all out war in the wrong country for no reason and killed countless civilians. He lied about everything---even his retelling of events and what he saw on 911. Many activists also hate Bush. For example, Bush stopped the production of the electric car in the 90’s in California after it received rave reviews because it threatened oil profits that he, his family and cohorts are in bed with. Oil--later leading to more gas hikes, pollution and spills in our waters. Bush will always live in infamy. He was really bad for the country and the evidence of that keeps piling up with each year. We didn’t disrespect him though. Internationally he was disrespected and hated, the 1st US president to have a shoe thrown at him. But the American citizens didn’t mistreat him while in office.

With Obama it’s the opposite. He’s loved everywhere he goes but we try to bury him here. Obama is smooth, intelligent, and articulate---we can’t nail him for the same reasons as Bush. But he’s the first president that we’re asking for crazy things, basically calling him and his family lairs in asking him to produce another birth certificate? Joe Wilson screaming “You Lie!” as the president of the United States is speaking on live TV? Once in a small US town, some local yokel nobody refused to shake his hand---the president of the United States?

Bush passed whatever he wanted and the public didn’t even know half of what he was doing---he just did it. Anything Obama wants, there’s opposition, town hall meetings, front page criticism and the works. He’s rendered powerless. With dislike, Bush definitely gets a bad deal, but Obama takes the cake with the unwarranted disrespect.

You do make another excellent point in that you respect the office. We Americans should be meticulously involved with whom we elect, and when the majority speaks we need to have class and respect for the commander in chief while in office. We do look bad divided and openly disrespectful of the presidency. You seem to be a perfect example. It's totally justifiable to disagree with this president, and not vote him, but perhaps the tone should change and the fervor should be calmed a bit.

AUTHOR

Writer David

7 years agofrom Mobile, AL

druhepkins,

I am just tired of all the conspiracy talk. There is far too much to concentrate on in defeating Barack Obama. The conspiracy theorists don't seem to realize they are helping the man by continuing this BS.

My point about Trump is that Obama would not have revealed the long-form birth certificate if Trump had not made it an issue. Why didn't he produce the form before Trump started in on this issue? I just think Obama wanted to get this issue out of the way now. But, it would be wrong to say Trump had no input into this happening. I don't think Obama would have ever produced it if not for Trump harping on it. That said, I believe Obama made a mistake by displaying the long form BC. The birthers immediately pounced on it as being a fake. Obama looked weak in doing this, in my opinion.

I also disagree with your statement that no president has been disrespected as Obama. I think that title goes to Bush 43. Inasmuch as I disliked the man, he didn't deserve the scathing remarks he got from the media and from the leftwing. I disliked both Bush and Obama. But, I do respect the office they hold. That is where I draw the line on criticism. I criticize Obama greatly. But, I dislike his policies, not the man.

Thanks for your comments. They are very interesting and refreshing.

AUTHOR

Writer David

7 years agofrom Mobile, AL

Jon, it is indeed a sign of the times. I fear that Obama will be reelected. In his second term, he will not feel any restraints of doing what he deems necessary by executive order. He loathes the legislative process. He prefers to rule by decree. The U.S. Constitution will not survive if Obama is reelected. No doubt in my mind about that.

Tom, I couldn't have put it any better.

druhepkins

7 years ago

Hi David,

Nice hub. I have to agree with you, these conspiracy theories are getting nuttier and out of control. It’ ok to not like Obama for policy or what have you, but people keep coming out of the woodworks suggesting more outrageous things but it always ends up working in Obama’s favor.

I totally disagree about Trump though David. I’m from NYC and Trump is politically dead in his own town, believe me. Obama didn’t release his long form birth certificate for the likes of Trump, he did it for the citizens and the public dis-rest----that yes, trump re-energized. Even though it’s stupid and misguided, Birthers were a growing number of American citizens who found it important. Trump helped bring the dead issue back into debate. As president of every American citizen, Obama finally did it to dismiss the issue once and for all. Trump had other things to say and didn’t win anything by grandstanding on that issue; he made himself a buffoonish spectacle who was the clown of the Correspondence dinner. Obama tore into him and I admit it was hysterical. Obama didn’t “cave in” to Trump. If anything, he helped make Trump completely un-electable.

Lastly, I’m independent and I don’t have a strong loyalty to any politician at the moment, but I do see that Obama is by far the most disrespected president. To disagree with his policies and agenda, sure. I have many of my own issues. But to second guess the man’s ID and everything he says including the death of Osama suggests a deeper, eerie problem with US citizens, and some US media, not him. Why would anyone lie about something that would easily blow up in his face. No one would claim an internationally infamous terrorist was dead if he wasn’t and could resurface again. It’s all so stupid.

Have a good one

tom hellert

7 years agofrom home

ALL,

welcome to the NEW Reichtag, Barack Obama Uber Alles,

TH

JON EWALL

7 years agofrom usa

Writer David

THERE IS some truth in what you say. Recently I attempted to contact Congressional Members of Congress via e-mail. Three different members, the emails gave me a 404 err even after re sending them. Another one I tried 6 times to use the id readings to forward the e-mail, gave up on the e-mail. Checking on a Fox News program the video was ok but the sound was scrabbled. Recently using a link address, what showed up was a Whitehouse page with a series of articles. It could have been because ‘’Barak Obama’’ was in the title of the article, don’t know.

It’s sad to think that the internet is being used for political purpose. Censorship of the public networks should not be tolerated by anyone.

IT’S THE SIGN OF THE TIMES! The transition of what America will be in the future.

T H YOU ARE WELCOME

tom hellert

7 years agofrom home

john I got the 2nd one now thanks

TH

AUTHOR

Writer David

7 years agofrom Mobile, AL

Jon, I use to make 2 or 3 hubs a week. I got down to 1 a week and now I rarely post hubs. With HP not really recovering (despite what they say) from the Google change and my lack of participation, my reads are way down. It just isn't worth my time to be here. This is their site. They can do as they wish. I only wish they would be honest about what they want here insofar as politics. They won't do that for one reason; Leftist politics is a failure in the marketplace. If they came out as the Huffington Post of Revenue Sharing Sites, their numbers would plummet even more than they are now.

The unfunded mandates atrocity is not surprising. We have a bunch of leftwing idealists who have no clue about how to balance books. We are going to collapse economically and spiritually if Obama is reelected. The 2012 Presidential Election is the most important in the history of this nation. If Obama is not defeated (and he is extremely vulnerable), then we as the United States of America will cease to exist. And that will make the leftists such as Obama, Reid and Pelosi rejoice. They must be stopped. The problem for the Right is there is no presidential candidate that excites the rank and file of the Republican Party. Obama can be beaten. I know the deck is stacked against someone trying to unseat an incumbent President, especially one as notorious and underhanded as Obama. But, it can be done with the right candidate.

JON EWALL

7 years agofrom usa

tom hellert

Did you get my 2 emails???

JON EWALL

7 years agofrom usa

tom hellert

It was reported today that the government has $50 trillion that's right $50 trillion in unfunded mandates which include medicare, medicaid and social security.

Wake up America get by the propaganda being fed to all the good citizens out there in wonderland

tom hellert

7 years agofrom home

So sayeth the wise EWALL...

There ya go guys right from the TOp....

United we stand divided we fall thANKS AGAIN JE...

TH

JON EWALL

7 years agofrom usa

tom hellert & hubbers

I have been attacked by some of the left wing hubbers, sometimes only because I write about the whole truth on a subject. They and Obama and company in most cases tell the truth BUT IN ALL CASES IT IS A HALF TRUTH. One must understand that they get most of their information from the internet blogs. Most of those blogs are radical forms of what the truth is in our society today.

Many of the news media, big business and the internet companies do have a close relationship with President Obama and company. It appears that many who are complaining about HP may have a legitimate complain as to their articles. I, too in the past have had some problems which were fairly criticized in one way or another and my responses were not published. Recently I have noticed that the link to tweeter on my hubs are no longer there. I haven't questioned why tweeter has been removed as yet. It could be because I have been using the link more often lately.

Open debate on hub pages is a good thing. One gets to understand in many cases the inner soul of some of the writers that are opinioned as to how our country is changing before our very eyes. Washington and our government today is all about power and control of the people.’’ Government for the people by the people…” somehow has been put on the back burner by our politicians. The Constitution and the law of the land is broken everyday by the politicians and select groups without fear of punishment.

The good people in America need to stand tall and speak out because we are definitely losing our freedoms everyday, day by day.

KEEP HUBBING ,your thoughts are always appreciated!

AUTHOR

Writer David

7 years agofrom Mobile, AL

Polly, I am not leaving as yet. I really don't see things improving around here. But, I am not going to be as active as I once was on HP. I made two hubs in the past 5 weeks. This hub was made five weeks ago and still going strong with reads. My other one is just getting off the ground. Never publish a hub on a late Friday afternoon. I am going to check out Technocrati. I was invited to start writing over there several weeks ago. I intend to check them out. I have an account with them. But, never really used them.

Joe, with a name like "Hummer," it doesn't surprise me in the least the guy supports left-wing candidates. I don't know anything about the Republican. He is either an old friend or RINO.

Well I really will hate leaving, I even liked Micky at one time when he first came here right after me, I thought he was a 15 year old kid or something and he made me laugh which at that time I really needed to do. It was a real shock then after all his God blesses joining Islams saying he didn't want a God that did the bad things our God did and that really everyone was going to heaven,,,well anyway I hope he gets help and I guess there are reason I know nothing about of bad things that happened to him so I try to put it out of my mind but the HP really are crazy with so many now talking about leaving and they don't seem to care. If it doesn't get worse I will be here off and on for the following but my plan is to get going on where I want my future and things I have fun with. Hope you won't leave completely either, actually I see people with very few hubs and high numbers they must be getting something. Good luck, V and peace, lol...really.

Polly

AUTHOR

Writer David

7 years agofrom Mobile, AL

Polly, it seems Mickey Dee has carte blanche to do as he damn well pleases on HP. I had one run-in with him. That's about it. They want all the conservatives to leave. That is the thing about socialists/liberals; they staunchly to defend the Bill of Rights. But, they only defend Freedom of Speech when you agree with their socialist agenda. Otherwise, they want you stifled in any way possible. In the real world, it's only going to get worse. The Violent Left is going to start making waves later this year in preparation for 2012. Remember who told you this.

Tom, something needs to be done. I can't believe HP is trying to run off everyone that is right of center. It only leaves a bunch of tree hugging, government cheese eating wimps to make hubs and forum messages. The Left doesn't do well in the market place. Just ask the former executives of Air America. HP should know this.

tom hellert

7 years agofrom home

Jon Ewall is a main hubb page guy he is a staunch conservative- not sure what he can or is willing to do about things-It does seem the lefty loons are starting to become a bitchy minority...

TH

Pollyannalana

7 years agofrom US

Oh Micky Dee and a slew of Islams got it in for me long time back and made a mark down game and smart remarks because I talked about Obama being a Muslim. Well I had the tapes that he said he was and it drove them nuts and the more I complained the lower I sank, I am way up there compared to then but I think they got wore out on it. I got over 800 hits i think on that one hub, it was way up there where they ran around telling everyone. I thought that was all over but maybe hubbosses are Muslims too, who knows? I have never understood this place really but I got my own two sites from it so I maybe should work more on those. Thanks for all the help and advice.

AUTHOR

Writer David

7 years agofrom Mobile, AL

Polly, all I know is that it seems someone really has it in for you. I would pester the hell out of them to find out what is wrong with your hubs. Even if it means calling them, I would get to the bottom of it before I leave. I'd at least have the satisfaction of knowing they are an amateur operation that moderates based on political bias. I posted another hub today. That makes 70. That may or may not be the end of it for me as well. I am looking also. I hate leaving all the good friends I have here. But, it seems we have no choice.

Well, the conservatives have no choice.

Pollyannalana

7 years agofrom US

Two more hubs down today, both with many reads, I just deleted them, they are hurting no one but themselves. I am seriously going looking, have heard of a couple more. My son is a technical writer, I think I am going to talk to him, his girlfriend writes for places, all so far not in this country and gets big money. They tell her what they want, like maybe for a product and she gets paid very well.

Pollyannalana

7 years agofrom US

That could be partly true but I know only a few years ago while in college I got the F I think I told everyone about, the college forcing the professor to give it to me and this was my first knowledge of illegal immigrants can you believe it? I had soooo much to learn but the thing in this one assignment brought it out about Mexicans in California claiming America and burning US flags and the words I gave were an article from the LA Times (which I gave credit to) not mine even! Many claim America is theirs! Well what about the Indian? What about the Caveman? I have been on the case since then not knowing illegals were right in my class (this one online) and it really made the professor mad too, he said he had never had a college come into one of his classes and demand anything. I was a straight A student and ended that way and made up my mind I was going to have my say, especially since I am in the right. Do not think I hate illegals, normal ones trying to better themselves, who could blame them but it is a law being broken and lives being put in danger and our country being destroyed so how could I possibly be for it and believe my all around me have new vehicles, live in the nicest houses and dress extremely well while we have old people and children homeless and hungry, and it is not right! At least do for ours as well as the illegals; who are carrying in diseases to wipe us out.

Also I have heard today although I have not checked it out yet that Obama seems to be working away from our all-time allegiance to the Jew. I have no idea if you are Christian or study scripture which I do but I can tell you it is looking like our time is short if this is true. Even non-Christians know the Jew's power in war, whether they know where it comes from or not. We are told to support them, our Forefathers knew and it has always been an unspoken rule but now I can only shake my head, seems all those videos I had here were right, but I will look further.

AUTHOR

Writer David

7 years agofrom Mobile, AL

Tom, I write right in the editor here on HP. I got tired of my paragraphs being created in mid-sentence. I just couldn't seem to get it formatted properly for whatever reason. I hope I don't come across as the"grammar and spelling nazi." I know I make mistakes. But, I try not to make the same mistake twice. Sometimes I will go back to ready my early hubs and I just cringe at what I have wrought.

Polly, an independent reporter from Brazil (don't ask me what he was doing there) at the Obama speech "safety at the border" stated secret service personnel whirled around to the sound of gunfire. I wish I could find the video. I am willing to bet someone has uploaded it already. The illegals are the group that are being taken advantage of in this whole sordid mess. They actually are not interested in becoming U.S. citizens. They want to work here, get the social benefits and then go back to Mexico when it is convenient. They all should be arrested as committing felonies. As long as Senor Obama is in office, they will never happen.

Pollyannalana

7 years agofrom US

I don't think it will be long until we find out what it is all about (thus the vacation) and I don't think the words that will be cut out will be cursing...more like you cannot say what you think. Look at the media, wasn't that you David who told me they never mentioned the gunfire sound all around Obama while he claimed how safe we were. I will feel safer with him out of office that is for sure! We know none of the warlords would harm their good friend and supporter Obama. People are just too blind to see it and when they do it will be too late. The illegals will be sorry too, they will see, being citizens will get them cut off everything or it better if they are a citizen as me!

tom hellert

7 years agofrom home

yes,

spelling and grammer- i sometime can't see my mistakes- it would be great to get the red or green squiggly lines under stuff- that is misspelled or is poor prose...

sign me up there. I have the poor vision I wouldnot mind writing in a bigger font but pub;ish it in whatever size they want-.

i am tired of writing things in word then cut n pasting - for large hubbs or responses

TH

AUTHOR

Writer David

7 years agofrom Mobile, AL

Polly,

You made a good point there. Someone is going to come along and make HP history, as you put it. There is one that is attempting to now. Technocrati use to be just a site for displaying your blogs. But, they are now going after writers to write original content on their site. I am thinking of going there. But, eventually, if there is a need for something on the internet, someone always makes it available in some form. HP is not very farsighted if they can't understand this. Some of the hubs I would simply be ashamed to put my name to due to being embarrassed. I know we are not here to make entries to Time Magazine or the National Review. But, just a little in the way of spelling, at least, would be helpful.

Pollyannalana

7 years agofrom US

TH -that really gets me too, my poems are really almost stories (not counting my stories) and I have seen many who scribble a few words not even God could understand (I feel)misspelled at that usually and stay ahead of me for months in score and gee I am not even after the money, why can't they be fair, someone will come along one day and make them history if they don't start doing people right! We that really put our care and souls into our work. Maybe they could feel sorry for us awhile. p

AUTHOR

Writer David

7 years agofrom Mobile, AL

Polly and Tom,

I honestly hate leaving HP. It has an easy interface (to me anyway) and seems professional looking. However, that is the best I can say about them right now. Their haphazard way of moderating hubs to suit their own agenda is just too much. Polly the only thing I can tell you is to stick to your guns. Do NOT change. There are plenty of revenue sharing sites that you can talk about your outrage...if you get my drift. Tom, you are making me want to start a hub on global warming now...oh, wait, it's "climate change" now, right? They really covered all their bases with that latest name change, didn't they? And people can't see through these morons?

tom hellert

7 years agofrom home

D n P,

I just don't get the reasons things get nuked i see poetry ALL tHE TIME with no substance, no pictures, no opinions, no punctuation, getting a pass all the time maybe if I switch my global warmings a fake hub into a poem it will pass through unfettered-;;; it was the second hub i did, I republisjed it without pictures the hub rating was still around 75 but it still got kicked back..

it ticks me off too....not sure what to do-

i think there are some globalwarmrs out there flagging all the anti glo warm hubs... damnd!ck$

TH

Pollyannalana

7 years agofrom US

You are saying what I hear many saying this place may not miss us buy I imagine people would like to read something else besides recipes all the commercial mumbo jumbo. I am looking into other things. I have had thousands of reads and although I try never have ads the main thing is it is pulling people here and I don't thing granny's garden or my boyfriend has acne is going to do it. If anyone with a brain set it up right...mmmm...I just don't know. I want freedom of speech and NO none will take that from me! Final on that. There is not one thing wrong with that hub but am I suppose to wait for a big company gets back from vacation to give me their OK? They are trying something to get more control over us I do know that. Someone said Triond is much like this but your hubs don's go in immediately and if there are any errors they fix them for you so one would merely have to be more careful. Besides adsense you get you get something else. impressions the tenth of very month, whatever that is. Worth looking at.

AUTHOR

Writer David

7 years agofrom Mobile, AL

Polly, you may or may not have noticed that I don't make as many hubs as I once did. There is a reason for that. I got hit for a low-grade hub. After constant complaining, I asked what was wrong with the hub. It was one on Political Musings that was posted last year! I take pride in my ability to write the English language. Someone complains about that, I want to know what was wrong. I never got an answer, of course. I could not find one damn thing wrong. I am infuriated about that.

Tom, I got a warning about one comment I made about global warming being a joke. That was the only damn time I have even mentioned that damn liberal scam. I am about sick of this place. My reads are down about 70% since the Google change. I don't see any reason why I should continue.

tom hellert

7 years agofrom home

Polly

ya my global warmings a lie hub got nuked as substandard,but my obamas a commy clown is still up there

i am not sure what is up-good luck figuring it out...

th

Pollyannalana

7 years agofrom US

Hi, just wondering are your comments section having discolored titles as if in plan for....something? I do and also one was down because of a picture I have had there almost a year so I knew it was OK to use so I made it smaller and the Hub went back up...then it said it might be considered commercial so I took out all links, them immediately it said it was substandard. I notice most of my hubs discolored might be political, so on most I took out pictures and links and will see what happens and made a copy of the closed down one with a date and comment in case it never goes back up. Just shut one down period. Myself. Is it hub people do you think or maybe Obama people flagging etc not liking what I say but they have been there so long ....? Election coming up. Just wondering if anyone else seeing this? (Wow, would sure hate to witness anything like that, don't know I would remember the vehicle.)

AUTHOR

Writer David

7 years agofrom Mobile, AL

Tom, as a case in point on your analogy...two years ago I was one of three witnesses to fatal hit and run of a pedestrian in my city. It was myself, a young lady, and elderly gentleman. It was late afternoon on a Friday. A man got impatient and refused to wait on the "walk" signal to come out to cross a busy downtown street. A dark blue Ford F-150 hit the man as he was attempting to cross, the man went flying in the air. He was most likely dead before he ever hit the ground. The Ford truck kept going. We were all interviewed separately. The young lady said it was a Chevy truck, dark green in color. The elderly man said it was a dark blue Nissan Titan. As it turns out, I was right on the mark. Just to illustrate your point, people are going to believe the truth. It's just their own version of the truth they will accept.

tom hellert

7 years agofrom home

Boys Gentlemen fellas n polly-

as long as man has been around- man has not trusted other men. that is for a good reason-if three people see an accident you can almost guarantee there will be 3 different versions the more people who see it the more stories that will be "created" and attacked and retread and knocked out, mocked and attacked.... Its the circle of life....Hakuna Mattata - any other Lion King reference i can thoss in there...

TH

AUTHOR

Writer David

7 years agofrom Mobile, AL

Oh Joe, you should know me well enough (if you read my hubs) I always speak my mind. hehehe. Just ask some of the more frequent visitors like Polly and Tom. I've said my piece. I'm just of the opinion that the government had no motivation to murder over 3,000 innocent men, women and children. Now, I can see where mistrust of the government comes in. I mistrust the government on any number of issues. But, when it comes to government conspiracies, I usually lack any interest in that unless there is concrete proof of such. Thanks for coming by. It has been an interesting thread.

joer4x4

7 years agofrom Philadelphia, PA

David - I fully understand your position and relax - say what you mean - your thought are important. It is a cringing thought to think that our government had something to do with it.

I am one of those who will take it to the next step because eliminating the possible leads to the impossible (at times). I question everything.

Another reason is that man can be and is often irrational. Emotions are very powerful and often come to play where they should not be. There are way too many in government today who use emotion to satisfy themselves and prey on others. Politicians use emotions to get votes and acceptance for what they want. I just don't think you can count out the dark side of man.

I like you want to know the truth. No offense taken. So relax speak your mind.

AUTHOR

Writer David

7 years agofrom Mobile, AL

Joe, you continue to bring up good arguments for your position. I don't deny it. We could argue this all day long. I'm not accusing you of being a truther. However the premise that the government participated or allowed 911 to happen is beyond my ability to even comprehend. I simply don't accept something that far out of the norm. And I will be even more blunt about it; it is ridiculous to even consider. There are a lot of strange things about the attack of Pearl Harbor in 1941. But, not many people at that time or even now see a conspiracy behind it. Yes, I have read the nonsense that FDR wanted it to happen so the USA could be dragged into WWII. My father even believed in it. He also believed man actually never landed on the moon also. I appreciate your educated responses. But, this was all the result of a madman...a dead madman now.

joer4x4

7 years agofrom Philadelphia, PA

Something I should have clarified...

When a disaster like 911 government forms its commission to investigate. But government commissions work for government and there is a good chance they are unwilling to upset the apple cart to get to the absolute truth for many reasons whether political or monetary.

For argument sake let's assume something was defective. If that was the case then government is the only resource who has the power to right a wrong because due to the weight of law.

The architects and construction companies are not going to volunteer for law suits let alone criminal prosecution.

So if the commission ignored or hid any data whether on purpose or by incompetence that would bring the truth to light then in effect they may have just as well blew up those buildings themselves. Government would be just as guilty as the terrorist who destroyed the twin towers and killed 3,000.

With the rampant government corruption that is so blatantly in the open today I can't help but to think someone knows something everyone else doesn't.

And if your career, income, or status depends on a secret, you'll have no problem keeping it to yourself. I don't buy the argument that too many people would know and it can't be kept secret. It's a power and control issue. Many unknowns have gone to the grave and there is no mystery as to the actions of man - only silence.

Sorry folks, I have no trust in politicians whether democrat or republican left. And I'm not really sorry.

Gentlemen...have a great day! A great hub and great conversation!

tom hellert

7 years agofrom home

Jeepers,

Jeepers Maybe you saw the same article i did...

There is another idea-the second tower fell first-It was hit a little lower=meaning more top weight was left- the planes had to weaken the structure enough- through heat that the top floors acted like a rock collapsing the floors below al I am saying it is plausible-etc who knows the prolonged tensile strength thatwas left after 50 years swaying and getting exposed to the elements

TH

joer4x4

7 years agofrom Philadelphia, PA

The maximum takeoff weight for a Boeing 707-320B is 336,000 pounds.

The maximum takeoff weight for a Boeing 767-200ER is 395,000 pounds.

The wingspan of a Boeing 707 is 146 feet.

The wingspan of a Boeing 767 is 156 feet.

The length of a Boeing 707 is 153 feet.

The length of a Boeing 767 is 159 feet.

The Boeing 707 could carry 23,000 gallons of fuel.

The Boeing 767 could carry 23,980 gallons of fuel.

Boeing 767 has a maximum range of 7,600 miles

The government said there was about 10,000 gallons of fuel on both planes. This is probably a good estimate since the planes had to travel only abount 3,000 miles. Planes are only loaded with enough fuel for the trip.

The cruise speed of a Boeing 707 is 607 mph

The cruise speed of a Boeing 767 is 530 mph

If you work out the math the 707 is the more dangerous plane, its faster, can take off faster, and would release more kinetic energy on impact.

You can work out the math for yourself. Denying the math is denying the truth. The math tells me neither fire nor impact caused those building to be pulverized.

I never could find a white paper on the design on the net and I wondered if they used bolts instead of welds in some places?

There are formulae that one can use to calculate the fall time and combined with collision theory that can give one a good idea of what the cause was but one would have to know some details about the material used.

Let me be clear - I have not accused the US government of anything but I am willing to entertain the possibility. I've done a lot of research from many sources over the years and talked to people where my son works (he paints steel beams) and all the evidence, math, an history says airplanes and fires don't bring down skyscrapers. People who build these things say if they could not handle it, an impact would be worst than 911.

They also said it is possible for a building to collapse like the twin towers but the core should have been in tact. Their take is something failed that should not have.

AUTHOR

Writer David

7 years agofrom Mobile, AL

Tom, I have to agree. Your scenario sounds more plausible to me, with regards to Joe. I do believe it was the north tower where the top half just fell over at the point of impact (or appeared to be). The bottom line in this entire discussion; there was not a concerted effort by the U.S. government to murder over 3000 people just to go to war if you believe what the truthers are saying. The federal government doesn't need an excuse. Obama's foray into Libya is a prime example.

tom hellert

7 years agofrom home

guys i founfdlie Robertson

"We had designed the project for the impact of the largest airplane of its time, the Boeing 707. The 767 that actually hit the WTC was quite another matter again. First of all it was a bit heavier than the 707, not very much heavier, but a bit heavier. But mostly it was flying a lot faster. And the energy that it put into the building is proportional to its square of the velocity, as you double the velocity, four times the energy. Triple the velocity, eight times the energy and so forth.

And then of course with the 707 to the best of my knowledge the fuel load was not considered in the design, and indeed I don't know how it could have been considered. But, and with the 767 the fuel load was enormous compared to that of the 707, it was a fully fuelled airplane compared to the 707 which was a landing aircraft. Just absolutely no comparison between the two."

The fuel capacity of the 737 was 900 gallons reater and the 737 that hit the ESb was at the end of its flight - i think- and the 737 flew faster-

again the external strength of WTC was greater but if you gut the insides melt them down- they will crumble down-In fact I am not sure what REALLY haPPENED but I do believe it is plausible for them to come down because their guts were gone...

Who knows

TH

joer4x4

7 years agofrom Philadelphia, PA

$1 million in 1945 dollars. About $12 million today using the consumer price index. But CPI ignores fuel and food amoung other things so its higher than that.

AUTHOR

Writer David

7 years agofrom Mobile, AL

Joe, I'm somewhat familiar with this incident involving the Empire State Building. The article I read said "heavy bomber." So, I'm guessing that was a B-24 since they were the main bomber by the end of WWII. I'm not sure how much damage the B-24 would have done to the WTC Vis-à-vis a modern jet airliner. I'm sure that B-24 was stripped since it was flying over commercial airspace of NYC. So, how much damage would it have done to the WTC? I don't know. That would take an engineer to figure out. I have doubts the B-24 could have caused as much damage as one of those jet airliners. Just my opinion.

Wayne, I think you may have seen that Trump has plummeted in the polls. If he stays in it will due to his overinflated ego. He would definitely hurt the GOP. But, it's always been about Trump anyway. His constant BS about Obama's BC made him a fringe candidate at best. Somebody needs to step forward and quick. Obama is extremely vulnerable. I really think Christie could beat him and maybe even handily. I just don't care for the man simply on his position on illegal immigration.

Wayne Brown

7 years agofrom Texas

David, I think you make a solid point although I fear that even with the theoretical issues, the right side of the aisle is now faced with a Perot-style vote splinter if Trump indeed throws his hat into the ring...especially if it is as an independent candidate. Trump stands to pull far more conservative and independent votes than liberal ones thus undermining the chances of any other serious candidate. I would hope that in the end he sees the writing in the tea leaves and moves on to other considerations...only time will tell. WB

joer4x4

7 years agofrom Philadelphia, PA

I don't have a degree either. But I can't believe they don't take aircraft into consideration. If they don't it's stupidity.

See the link below. The Empire State Building wasn't pulverized and it is reported its frame is much thinner than the towers were.

Joe, I don't have a degree in engineering or physics. But, aren't you underestimating the impact a jet airliner had on this building? I don't know what the top speed is of these things. I will guess and say in the 300-400MPH range. Isn't it conceivable to you that this kind of impact compromised the entire "joint" system of this building? I can see the building dropping down at the impact level (and I don't remember which floor(s) of each building had the impacts). The floors above, in turn, would also drop. But, not necessarily drop down like a a stack of cards. In fact, it seems that the section above the impact on the north tower dropped over, instead of dropping down.

joer4x4

7 years agofrom Philadelphia, PA

Tom:

"The jet fuel ignites at the low amount but fire still burns et fuel will ignite and burn at 950-980 degrees C while steel will melt at acording to the Iron-Iron Carbide phase diagram it will melt just above 700C 702.5 C"

In that case they used cheap steel (very low carbon) steel because that temperature the steel is still in tact. You can not cut decent quality steel at that temperature. To get an accurate clean cut you need to use an acetylene/oxygen torch to liquefy it (over 6000F).

The other thing is that steel does not get brittle at all except under very low temperatures where life cannot survive. That is why I don't buy the "rock" concept.

For those buildings to collapse the steel would have had to literally melt away and remain in a liquid state all the way to the bottom. There would have been a massive pool of steel on the ground that would have to be cut up for transport.

One Meridian Plaza caught on fire several years ago here in Philly and the evidence suggested it reached a temperature up to 1300F. The steel was in tact. They found melted aluminum and glass and lots of cracked granite. Temperatures around the perimeter were about 500F. The worst that happened is that one panel fell off the side of the building.

Tom, I always thought the 72 virgins thing was a bit weird also. A religion based on sex if you die for Allah? Damn.

If Obama wins reelection, just turnout the lights of this country. The party is definitely over.

tom hellert

7 years agofrom home

If obama wins in 2012 we all better hope the world does get hit by a earthkiller meteor-it will probably do less damage- at least we would all die withhin a year or 2... not killed over 4 before total breakdown of the USA.

better to get killed by a bullet- than die a painfull death from cancer...

tom hellert

7 years agofrom home

$x4,

jet fuel is not like gas it doesnt just burn off quick like gasoline or a lighter petroleum based compound,

its formulated VERY thick closer to honey in winter and goopier like PVC glue. it would explode in the areas of fuel that was near the outsides-or once it gets thinner and volatilizes more- as it thins out and further volatileizes as it goesdown the shafts... plane Air-Fue burns hot and could easily melt the steel internally in those old buildings-l is BUt the elevator shafts would have provided a way for the downward LINE OF INERTIA of the top floors hammering down on the floors below- The jet fuel ignites at the low amount but fire still burns et fuel will ignite and burn at 950-980 degrees C while steel will melt at acording to the Iron-Iron Carbide phase diagram it will melt just above 700C 702.5 C so ignition is at a lower temp but once it ets going- it burns hotter. My Rock metaphor was based on the top floors- coming down through brittle melted or partially melted internal beams that are weakened by the fuel that already fell through the centers in the elevator shafts - thus the rock metphor would be decent model for the tops falling through the middle to the bottom of the towers, the path of least resistance- the middle of the buildings became a like a sewer pipe where the builldings could fall the easiest...

TH

LRCBlogger

7 years ago

Joer, your sounding like one of those people I mentioned. If you get a GOP candidate talking about 9/11 conspiracies and 'Deather' Conspiracies, you might as well just give Obama another 4 years now.

joer4x4

7 years agofrom Philadelphia, PA

I did think about what Tom said but what bothers me is the fuel probably was mostly gone in about 15 seconds due to sparks caused by wing seperation on inpact. Forward momentum pushed most of it inside but for all we know a lot of it could have run down the side of the building. In any case I think the explosion occured on impact and it just wasn't big enough.

I think Tom would be right if the explosion was big enough to blow out some windows. A big bang like that could disloge some joints.

But steel won't react until about 1400 degrees F. Welds at around 600 degrees F. The left over rubble should have been littered with steel beams but there didn't seem to be what it took to put up the buildings.

Like a Rock? One could argue that but the towers had to hold there own weight. If any one floor collapsed it would still hold. I don't think the upper floors has time to "get up to a speed" for an impact that could cause the whole thing to collapse.

Laden is dead, I agree. But when? He's been out of the picture for a while now. Hey I could be thinking too much!

Dave, the Constitution is broken every day and I can point to thousands of laws that go againt the highest law of the land.

tom hellert

7 years agofrom home

WD,

the 72 virgin thing always seemed a lil creepy to me....

TH

AUTHOR

Writer David

7 years agofrom Mobile, AL

Tom, I knew there was something that smelled in that damn basement!

I wish that bastard was alive. I'd deal with him in ways he never dreamed of and it doesn't include 72 virgins either.

AUTHOR

Writer David

7 years agofrom Mobile, AL

LRC,

I must take exception to the "smart dude" part. Everything else I can live with as a rule. hehehe....thanks, glad to see you here again.

Joe, I don't fully understand the dynamics of jet fuel and the Ultimate tensile strength (UTS) of steel beams and joints. But, I got to believe that jet fuel was never figured into the equation when the twin towers were built. Just my layman's opinion. I really like what Tom said. It makes sense to me. As for OBL, he's dead. No ifs, ands or buts. I don't believe U.S. Navy Seals and all the security apparatus would circumvent the U.S. Constitution for any POTUS, including the present one.

tom hellert

7 years agofrom home

LRC does have a point David you are trained i heard you have a big basement ... great for hiding a certain Arabic Leader... i think he has cracked something here....

TH

tom hellert

7 years agofrom home

joe 4x4,

I have worked remediating/cleaning up all types of fuels- one thing about jet fuel-it is thick heavy and flamble when it gets exposed to air- it flashes at 100F and autoignits at 410 F.once the plane crashed the heavy jet fuel would have found a lower point, and ran- gooped down the floorswhere it thinned outand ignited exploding along the waydown the elevators exploding along the way so it is plausible to create an explosion and then- the top floors would have acted like a a rock falling down an empty exploded blown out elevator shaft....

As for bin laden being known in Pakistan... that country is so honest and open with the US who would have ever thought the Pakistanis were huding their hero-

The govt and many talk shows have been saying - osama's in P-stan... I am not shocked he was "living" there.

but still *shock*- he was in a country right near where we are fighting all his buddies *socker#2*

AS FOR THE non-killing of Osama-Far too many people would have to be in on it and even Al quada says he's dead- unless they are in on it too- I would not put it past Obama to be covertly working with Al-Quada.

oh well thats just my take for what its worth.

TH

joer4x4

7 years agofrom Philadelphia, PA

David - The more I look at 911 and Bin Laden the more questions I have. And I'm hardly a left winger and ten years after I am no longer emotionially attached.

Having worked in a lab testing all kinds of pipe for the commercial and nuclear industries all I can tell you it takes a tremedous amount of pressure to break steel and it will stretch quite a bit before it does. It just wasn't there that day.

Those aluminum aircraft didn't stand a chance and were pulverized upon entry. When the tops fell the underlying would have supported as it did for many years. The weight never changed and the impact of the collapse was too slow to put enough pressure on it.

Those buildings should be standing today unless they cut corners and left half the steel out, the steel was defective, or the other option is the conspiracy. Someone is not saying something they should.

Bin Laden has been anounced dead how many times? I think it was CBS (Dan Rather???) reported he was in a hospital in Saudi Arabia a while back during or before 911? I vagley remember that broadcast years ago.

A military base right down the block from where Bin Laden was shot? How did the choppers get past that and why didn't the Pakistan military do anything? Did Pakistan know or was Obama lying (again)? They may have flew in under the radar but choppers are noisey and 40 minutes is plenty of time for military personel to react.

What would you do if someone broke into your house? What would Pakistan do if it was India?

I can't help to think that Bin Laden would have been worth more alive than dead. Everyone else we ever killed was left there or blown to bits. If he was blown to bits all terrorists would have known it in a heartbeat! This whole thing seems so uncharacteristic of what we usually do. And after a bad start it came together so 'perfectly'?

There are so many conflicting reports in the details that right now I have to say "I don't know".

But then I think about how the EPA and the UN killed millions of Africans by banning DDT, who knows what government is capable of? Ouch that hurts!

I'll leave the answer to you...

LRCBlogger

7 years ago

WAIT!!!!! Writer David sure knows a lot about the death of Bin Laden (or supposed Death). Writer David is also militarily trained. Perhaps you DAVID have something to do with this cover up! I think you are hiding Osama....and thus a new conspiracy begins, ha ha

On a serious note, we do have different political views but I just love your hubs. You are such a rational and smart dude. There are a few others like you that give the GOP a good name but unfortunately for you, there are many others that do the opposite. As you said, if the GOP continues to be viewed as 'more extreme' due to the rise of the 'deathers' and the constant rebirth of conspiracies from 'birthers', they will alienate the more sane minded independents like myself who can swing in either direction when voting. (ok, to clarify, I lean left but have voted for Republicans many times...or at least several times)

I really do hope the GOP embraces a candidate that focuses on real issues. The fact that Donald Trump was leading the GOP in the polls (even for a short time) is a bad sign.

AUTHOR

Writer David

7 years agofrom Mobile, AL

Joe, you make valid points. I can understand the mistrust of the government. We were lied to about the reasons for going into Vietnam. I really think the mistrust started then. But, just using common sense, in regard, to whether or not OBL is dead or not should surpass any doubts about the government. I feel that it is safe to say al qaeda is involved in any conspiracy with Obama and the federal government. Nor are the many people in Pakistan demonstrating over the "illegal killing" of OBL. As for the truthers; I have decided that of the 3 groups I mentioned in this hub, they are the one that I will spend the least amount of time trying to figure out. Ask them one question about what the motivation would be for the government to murder over 3K people, you will get that the government needed a reason to go to war against Iraq. Right. As if the government ever needs a reason to do what they want.

joer4x4

7 years agofrom Philadelphia, PA

I think the real issue is that government has been caught lying so many times that there is a significant following out there who no longer have any trust in government.

On top of that government does a poor job in explaining things and presents conflicting data.

For instance in the case of the twin towers it is common knowledge that steel does not break but molts under high heat. If it didn't molt we would not be able to use it a construction material. In that case they would have found reformed molten steel in the ruins. If they did find that it was never mentioned.

One could argue that the steel joints broke down but the molting process may have fused the joints together.

As long as the story doesn't make sense, their will be disbelievers.

AUTHOR

Writer David

7 years agofrom Mobile, AL

Tom,

I suppose Obama has to run on his record in retrospect. He has no choice really. Obamacare could sink him if ONLY the Republican Party had a viable, popular candidate. None of the people thus far are dynamic and what this nation truly needs. I honestly don't see one that I think can beat Obama....yet. Things can change and Novmeber 2012 is a long way off.

Polly, the people who I deem as "Obama Zombies" are becoming increasingly disenchanted with him. The problem? They don't think he is liberal enough. They are furious he was not able to pass amnesty with a Democrat controlled House and Senate. He is not going to close Guantanamo Bay. He is trying, repeat, trying to cut back on spending. The socialists don't want that at all. I think we will see a very close race in 2012. But, I can't see Republicans winning unless they get someone who is popular coast to coast. Like them or hate them, Trump, Palin and Bachmann(sp) will guarantee another term for the Anointed One. I am just being realistic. I don't believe in pumping sunshine when it comes to politics. I don't like him, but I believe Christie of NJ could beat Obama. But, I don't see him running this year.

tom hellert

7 years agofrom home

polly-

i am still hopeful hoping that some day she will come free from her mental chains and feel brave enough to stand up to her captors and say- "no I wanna see my dad..." I have a hub forth coming about- these things in the "fake scinerio" or a hub that hides the names to protect the guilty...

TH

Pollyannalana

7 years agofrom US

David I don't even think it is a matter of calming down as much as giving up and looking every day at the people who almost worship a man that has only brought inflation I really do not believe we will ever recover from and insecurity,which puts each and every one of us from being blown to shreds at any time, taking away state right to keep people from protecting themselves and no one wonders about this man? What in the world is wrong with them? I know I have lost friends over him and I keep reminding them not only did I vote for him but he is as much white as he is black which they keep wanting to forget on both sides.

That's Ok TH, sorry about the daughter I have the same thing going on and I don't even care except being cheated from my small granddaughter. Another sign of the end. In my case anyway.

tom hellert

7 years agofrom home

WD-Polly sorry for the comment a few days ago- i was trying to be abstract- It was late and i was tired- the sun was in my eyes- i didnt eat my veggies, i found out my fav Tv show is ending in July or June, my cat threw up on the carpet , my shockra has been compromised, and my daughter has not talked to me in months..that one really does hurt...

but i am somewhat better now-

didnt mean to tick you off-

your pal

TH

tom hellert

7 years agofrom home

WD,

Sadly Bary will run on his record he will tout healthcare for all BUt the mean evil Op wants old people to eat cat food and die - when its really his policies that will force that if the elderly don't have to take a pain pill-

Unemployment- Anything under 10 will be sold as -"We brought the country back from the brink of "te mess George bush created and left"

Despite his desires as a senator and candidate- HE WILL TAKE CREDIT FoR OBL- "HE ALONE GAVE THE ORDER, HE HELPED CREATE THE PLAN" HE loaded the guns that shot OBL-He gave the order TO KILL!!

He will state HE punished the EVIL bankers He has opposed the evil Jan Brewer of AZ and her Racist law... that mimics-federal statute

He will speak in broken spanish and those poor foolish immigrant souls will fall all over him "Queremos ObAma por presidente"

He will still run against George Bush- even though he continued allot of the policies he ran against-

He has aquired a ton of cash and will use that money to smear his GOP opponant on every network including cartoon network

Michelle obama will be on there even more than now saying "OK kids eat healthy do your homework and tell your parents to vote for barrack- or the REpublicans will take the cartoons off the air"

Its going to get ugly- it will be the ugliest election in the history of the US i just hope a GOPer has the BALLS to call this Jacka$$ the liar, cheat and sneak he is- I am tired of the GOP bringing a limp-wet noodle to a knife fight

I called it keep this post so I can check things off as they happen- HA

TH

AUTHOR

Writer David

7 years agofrom Mobile, AL

Polly, calmed down a bit now? hehehe. We just disagree on OBL. There are too many people in the know who have said he is dead. I admit, Obama is a cause of a lot of the conspiracies that people tend to think because he is so secretive. I continue to reiterate, this is all by design. He is a complete, utter failure as president. He is fearful of playing the race card in the upcoming presidential election of 2012. He can't really run on his record, can he? So, what is left for a socialist? He is going to play the "woe-is-me-victim-card." People ganging up on him with the birth certificate (and he made a major blunder by showing a long form BC) and OBL are helping his cause. I don't want to do anything that will help get him reelected. Americans love to support someone they feel is being treated unfairly. Democrats will play that to the hilt with a friendly MSM. We can't do anything to help him. That is the point I hope you will remember about this thread.

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