Woody, bit of a cheap shot to put the 'w' in Wales as lower case. However, we need to win and that's as good a team to do it. Have to say I'm a bit worried about Patchell though I think he will be under far more pressure than last week!

"Im really interested to see how rubbish Mike Brown needs to get to not get picked."

In fairness - and I don't have any great interest in being fair to Mike Brown, because i'd have dropped him years ago - he came in a bit rusty last week, and will very likely be less rubbish this Saturday.

How you can be as good an all-round footballer as Jack Nowell and still see Mike Brown ahead of you is a million miles beyond me.

shipwreckedWoody, bit of a cheap shot to put the 'w' in Wales as lower case. However, we need to win and that's as good a team to do it. Have to say I'm a bit worried about Patchell though I think he will be under far more pressure than last week!

I was just racing to be first, Cowshed Denizen will be after me again...( so far I've resisted querying the cow element)

Optimist"Im really interested to see how rubbish Mike Brown needs to get to not get picked."
In fairness - and I don't have any great interest in being fair to Mike Brown, because i'd have dropped him years ago - he came in a bit rusty last week, and will very likely be less rubbish this Saturday.

How you can be as good an all-round footballer as Jack Nowell and still see Mike Brown ahead of you is a million miles beyond me.

Maybe ive been a bit harsh on him, i think those 2 times he passed the ball on the Argentina tour are still talked about in hushed terms in rugby clubs around the world

I am a little surprised given that I think England looked a lot better when Watson moved to 15 and Nowell came on and played well.

I suppose in Eddie's reckoning though is that Watson is such an excellent finisher that I am not sure whether we would have got his two tries last week if he had been at 15 and Nowell on the wing. Nowell for as good as he is doesn't have the same top speed of Watson and you'd then have Watson hitting dummy lines which was essentially Brown's role in several 1st phase moves which seems a waste!

By keeping Watson on the wing and moving the ball as they did last week he's hoping he will still get plenty of ball out there and give him opportunities to score as he did last weekend. For as flashy a backline as England could put out you do still need a grunter who is willing to take a hard line into traffic or be missed out in moves which Brown does do to be fair.

Don't really agree with that last bit Big Dog, I can do the grunting bit no problem and I am happy as Larry to be missed out in any flashy, risky moves close to the defence line but I ain't had no call from Eddie. He must be looking for something more

I think we have to keep Wales honest. They have a few players, like Evans and the open-side, who need to be put under real pressure. Play it tight for the first 20 and kick to the corners. Wales will want it loose.

Agree with you Gaz - honest grafters are for the Championship or filthy January afternoons. At the elite level surely you want elite level skill? I don't see anything that Brown can do that Nowell can't.

He'll probably have a blinder tomorrow - Twickenham does seem to love him

Well let's be fair, Brown is still an elite professional player. He's just not as "flashy" as Nowell or Watson or Solomona etc who are more highlight reel players!

He's still far more than a blunt instrument and he does the basics very well. EJ I suspect likes him more because of his mental fortitude than his physical capabilities at times. He's also the only player above like 26 in that England backline so brings experience at this period whilst a lot of the others are still growing into international rugby - albeit only to a certain degree now as I appreciate a lot of them now have 30 plus caps!!

Big DogWell let's be fair, Brown is still an elite professional player. He's just not as "flashy" as Nowell or Watson or Solomona etc who are more highlight reel players!
He's still far more than a blunt instrument and he does the basics very well. EJ I suspect likes him more because of his mental fortitude than his physical capabilities at times. He's also the only player above like 26 in that England backline so brings experience at this period whilst a lot of the others are still growing into international rugby - albeit only to a certain degree now as I appreciate a lot of them now have 30 plus caps!!

He has been superb for England in the past but I don’t see that now. Still good but could you see him anywhere near the All Blacks side whereas most of our players, whilst not first choice selections, wouldn’t be too far away.

OptimistAgree with you Gaz - honest grafters are for the Championship or filthy January afternoons. At the elite level surely you want elite level skill? I don't see anything that Brown can do that Nowell can't.

Billix, so that's why I ain't had the call from Eddie, time I guess to get boots out from depths of garage and into the bin!

But yeah, agree Opti and the only reason I can think of why Eddie isn't trying other options at 15 in search of the elite is that it would be a step too much change and a risk too many whilst he tries to nail his first choice 13 and Brown is just about good enough

shipwreckedWoody, bit of a cheap shot to put the 'w' in Wales as lower case. However, we need to win and that's as good a team to do it. Have to say I'm a bit worried about Patchell though I think he will be under far more pressure than last week!

I was just racing to be first, Cowshed Denizen will be after me again...( so far I've resisted querying the cow element)

To be honest, it was the appalling use of the term 'finishers' rather than 'replacements' that irks me more about that post...

shipwreckedWoody, bit of a cheap shot to put the 'w' in Wales as lower case. However, we need to win and that's as good a team to do it. Have to say I'm a bit worried about Patchell though I think he will be under far more pressure than last week!

I was just racing to be first, Cowshed Denizen will be after me again...( so far I've resisted querying the cow element)

To be honest, it was the appalling use of the term 'finishers' rather than 'replacements' that irks me more about that post...

I think EJ's concept and use of finishers is the best thing he has brought to England. Games are often won in the final 15 minutes and certain players are better when there is more space. Nowell would be a good example. Just look at England's last two games against Italy.

The term 'finishers' is nothing more than a bit of psychology on Eddie's part to make subs feel better about themselves.

Not a single player has been picked for their specific ability in the last 15 minutes of a game. They've been picked because they are the best mix of cover for all eventualities, and they are the next cabs off the rank.

If Eddie really thought of it as a concept, he'd have picked Wigglesworth to start.

The term 'finishers' is nothing more than a bit of psychology on Eddie's part to make subs feel better about themselves.

Not a single player has been picked for their specific ability in the last 15 minutes of a game. They've been picked because they are the best mix of cover for all eventualities, and they are the next cabs off the rank.

If Eddie really thought of it as a concept, he'd have picked Wigglesworth to start.

All with the potential exception of T'eo who is just so different in style from the person(s) he would replace that it gives another angle (that angle being out to in rather than JJs in to out according to Jamie Roberts this week). Hard to say who is 'better' between those two. Possibly same case with May and Nowell.

Sure - but you could just as easily form an argument for starting with Te'o (bash them up) and finishing with Joseph (use his pace against tiring legs). You could just as easily form an argument for starting with Nowell over May. Surely Nowell's renowned 'work-rate' would be better used over 65 minutes and May's deadly finishing in the last 15.

I disagree. I think that were the rules different about replacements, then George would be the starter and Care might start ahead of Youngs. Wigglesworth is not at the same level as Care, so that argument does not hold.

I think that we have only just begun to understand the importance of these finishers and EJ is ahead of his time in this regard.

OptimistSure - but you could just as easily form an argument for starting with Te'o (bash them up) and finishing with Joseph (use his pace against tiring legs). You could just as easily form an argument for starting with Nowell over May. Surely Nowell's renowned 'work-rate' would be better used over 65 minutes and May's deadly finishing in the last 15.
Te'o covers both 12 and 13. Nowell covers 13, 14, 15.

Yes, I always think that when people make these statements they can always be flipped

cb2I disagree. I think that were the rules different about replacements, then George would be the starter and Care might start ahead of Youngs. Wigglesworth is not at the same level as Care, so that argument does not hold.
I think that we have only just begun to understand the importance of these finishers and EJ is ahead of his time in this regard.

Perhaps, but there are a few NH countries who simply don't have the 23 top class internationals and struggle to find 15! So having the luxury of top drawer players to finish a game is not an option

Optimist‘were the rules different about replacements’ - like how, for example.
And tell me how the bench would differ personnel-wise if Eddie thought of them as ‘the guys who come on when the starters either tire or get jinjured’.

ideally there would be 2 benches; the guys who come on when the starters either get tired or get injured and these guys never come on just to finish off the game, and the other bench who are specialist finishers who come on only if nobody gets injured but its near the end.

As we're discussing subs/finishers etc:
Is bringing on half a new team with 20-30mins to go really good for the game?
Doesn't it favour the bigger counties too much?
Does it mean more injuries when a fresh body hits a tiring one?
Does it promote physical bulk over aerobic fitness?

How about a system more like Wendyball, where you can have big bench but you can only make 3 (or 4, or 5) substitutions, either tactical or for injury.

Totally agree Jayeatman. Under the current laws, i sometimes wonder why England don't just swap 7 players at half-time. In terms of quality, there's virtually no drop-off. With 14 of your team playing no more than 40 minutes, you could have a big net increase in energy level across the course of the match.

Even the most impactful of subs can find 15 minutes passing them by, and it's pretty hard to 'leave it all out there' in 15 minutes.

jayeatmanAs we're discussing subs/finishers etc:
Is bringing on half a new team with 20-30mins to go really good for the game?
Doesn't it favour the bigger counties too much?
Does it mean more injuries when a fresh body hits a tiring one?
Does it promote physical bulk over aerobic fitness?

How about a system more like Wendyball, where you can have big bench but you can only make 3 (or 4, or 5) substitutions, either tactical or for injury.

I do agree, but in a dull-contact game, you have to allow for injuries too.
How about 8 man benches, but only 5 substitutions. Any injury replacements have to sit out the following week.

BathBurgerAnyone else feeling a bit nervous about this one? Maybe not that comparable but Patchell has been tearing it up for Scarlets and looked very comfortable last weekend.
Hope we win but it's ours to lose and Wales are riding a wave of confidence.

Yes, I agree about Patchell but Wales have to be dominant up front and I don't see that happening. Patchell won't crumble but overall I think England are better.

If Bath can beat Scarlets you have to think England can as I don't think Bath are close to international standard yet.

It's right to spread them around, but play Wales close to Wales (Wuss, Gloucs, Bath) and you'll get some away support. Play it 250+ miles away and you won't. Save Newcastle for when they play Scotland (next season).

I think the last 20 were closer than they needed to be; and it think it came from the halfbacks. Anscomb was a clear step up on Patchell, whilst Ford came off about 30s before Farrell lost his legs/lungs. Care on the other hand, had also run himself out, but a knackered Care with 65 minutes of rugby in his legs was still a massive step up on a fresh Wigglesworth.

Wales will moan about the TMO decision - if that had gone their way they'd have lost by 4 instead of 6

Yep Garland having a big moan about the disallowed try in an interview, probably over stepping the line. Eddie wouldn't say that if he was in that position, he would have said ' hey, look, we had the rest of the game to get a win'.

Optimist I don't see anything that Brown can do that Nowell can't.
He'll probably have a blinder tomorrow - Twickenham does seem to love him

I never mind being right Shipwrecked!

Except I didn't think he was that great. He stood out for England because it was such a scrappy game and he took his catches. But that's a bit self-fulfilling. It might not have descended into a scrap if Brown had an ounce of pace, vision, or footballing ability. Some of Wales' kicking was pretty sho1te - Ant or Daly might have had a field day.

I agree entirely with Johnny Wilkinson. We need to score points. I think after that spell, and i know I thought it, we thought it might be one of those days.

To their credit, it wasn't and a more potent attack and Wales would be winners.

What concerns is that the two phases felt disconnected. May and Nowell were great going forward but bad in defence (May hovers to far forward - usually the mark of an uncomfortable tackler - and Nowell isn't quick enough to leave so much room outside).

Likewise, Simmonds. For all his carrying (and it's good he targets the weak shoulder), his tight game was bad.

But then players like JJ excelled in defence but couldn't provide a spark and Teo needs to work on his tackling technique.

Good photo in here if the disallowed try, only a freeze frame, but suggestive. Looks to me like the tmo got it right, not what I thought at the time. His he's not holding the ball, so downward pressure is required, it's at the side so no downward pressure. Certainly not as clear cut as I first thought.

Te'o looks better starting, smashing it up the middle and aggressive in the tackle. He reads the attack very well tbf.

Coming off the bench he doesn't seem to add much apart from tiring out a team that will already be tired to some extent. Strange as a year ago he was a bit of an offload specialist who was aggressive in all the right ways. Hope for his sake he returns to that style of play asap.

England were very lucky to win that game. Even though they say it is a sign of a good side to win when playing badly, we squeezed a win by 2 bits if Farrell inspired play, and never really threatened the Welsh by back play and managed to break down their defence. England looked knackered and if they had to play another 5 minutes they would have lost as the Welch are fitter than us. Also their handling and passing through out their team was/is infinitely better than the English can muster.

EJ is delusional if he thinks we can win the World Cup with performances like that. The AB's would hammer us.

Farrell IMO was the outstanding player and apart from his passing and vision setting up the tries, his tackljng and covering was absolutely first class.

May's defence is dreadful and apart from Launchbury and occasionally Lawes and Underhill, we were outplayed up front. I wish Shindler had an English parent as he is an absolute star performer.

What do people think about Vunipola's scrummaging and also Cole's whose replacement Williams looked much more comfortable and contributed much more as well?

Well the circus goes on with probable 2/3 week or longer injuries to Watson and Simmonds.

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