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Re: Granger To Resume Practice

Just to be clear, though, 14-15ppg would make him the team's #2 scorer. Lance is averaging 14ppg, West and Hill are both under 12. That's not because they're not a threat, it's because the team is operating as a unit. I don't care about Danny's ppg nearly as much as his FG%.

Dannys not going to average 15 on this team. he doesn't have to. an 80% Granger with 25 minutes in a 5 game sample size is probably something like this at max as this team is constructed for success.

12, 18, 16, 10, 13. 13ppg at best for an 80% Granger on this roster. Were loaded.

Re: Granger To Resume Practice

Excellent points. Upgrading the bench with his expiring contract is a great idea. We have our starting unit. We have our backup PG. We could upgrade the bench with a young offensive talent. Maybe a wing or rim protector.

The problem with upgrading our bench is that any contracts we bring back are likely to make it so we can't afford Scola. I would imagine Scola is a better fit for our team than any other bench player we can bring in.

That's before you bring in the logistics of using an expiring contract to bring back manageable contracts. If people are trading for an expiring, they typically want to rid themselves of good players that are overpaid for multiple years. If Granger is good enough to net you both good players and cap flexibility, Granger is probably the better player this year and provides us the most cap flexibility.

My prediction: Solomon Hill is going to lead the team in Surprisingly Good Plays for the year. -10/29/2014

Re: Granger To Resume Practice

Just to be clear, though, 14-15ppg would make him the team's #2 scorer. Lance is averaging 14ppg, West and Hill are both under 12. That's not because they're not a threat, it's because the team is operating as a unit. I don't care about Danny's ppg nearly as much as his FG%.

I know that. If Granger was truly healthy he is a better shooter than all three of those guys. Not necessarily a better player, but certainly a better shooter. So...I think the 14-15ppg is a good number where 17ppg...like I said...is tops on a contender. Recall the dog teams he played on and averaged 20 or even more. Not a good comparison at all. I would be really, really surprised and happy if he averaged 17ppg for us this year and didn't hurt us in other ways by taking minutes from Lance.

Re: Granger To Resume Practice

The problem with upgrading our bench is that any contracts we bring back are likely to make it so we can't afford Scola. I would imagine Scola is a better fit for our team than any other bench player we can bring in.

That's before you bring in the logistics of using an expiring contract to bring back manageable contracts. If people are trading for an expiring, they typically want to rid themselves of good players that are overpaid for multiple years. If Granger is good enough to net you both good players and cap flexibility, Granger is probably the better player this year and provides us the most cap flexibility.

Here's how it works. We give them an expiring. They give us a semi-bad contract and a great prospect to replace Scola and ultimately West. Recall that Lance and PG don't hit prime for another 4 years when those guys are retiring.

Re: Granger To Resume Practice

Here's how it works. We give them an expiring. They give us a semi-bad contract and a great prospect to replace Scola and ultimately West. Recall that Lance and PG don't hit prime for another 4 years when those guys are retiring.

Re: Granger To Resume Practice

The problem with upgrading our bench is that any contracts we bring back are likely to make it so we can't afford Scola. I would imagine Scola is a better fit for our team than any other bench player we can bring in.

That's before you bring in the logistics of using an expiring contract to bring back manageable contracts. If people are trading for an expiring, they typically want to rid themselves of good players that are overpaid for multiple years. If Granger is good enough to net you both good players and cap flexibility, Granger is probably the better player this year and provides us the most cap flexibility.

great points. whats so phenomenal is there are zero bad contracts on this team. GG is gone! Ya I don't know what to think of what to do with Scola. hell if I was playing nba2k14 or whatever I would be up all nite with this teams roster. lol.

Re: Granger To Resume Practice

Here's how it works. We give them an expiring. They give us a semi-bad contract and a great prospect to replace Scola and ultimately West. Recall that Lance and PG don't hit prime for another 4 years when those guys are retiring.

hell w all that. were not giving up any players in the starting 5 or named scola.

Re: Granger To Resume Practice

I would be really, really surprised and happy if he averaged 17ppg for us this year and didn't hurt us in other ways by taking minutes from Lance.

Before the season started, I said I could see the Pacers winning the regular season without a single player averaging 18 ppg. Paul's explosion has made it unlikely that he'll go back to that scoring level, but I wouldn't be surprised if no other player on the team averaged 15ppg.

I'm just saying that points won't be an adequate metric for any player on this team. We could win a championship with David West giving us career low in PPG. Roy is looking great and not even averaging double digits.

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Re: Granger To Resume Practice

Here's how it works. We give them an expiring. They give us a semi-bad contract and a great prospect to replace Scola and ultimately West. Recall that Lance and PG don't hit prime for another 4 years when those guys are retiring.

How are we supposed to afford the semi-bad contract AND the prospect AND keep the starting 4 together AND resign Lance?

With the switch from Granger + Paul George to just George we only gain enough money to pick up a player on a minimum salary. Or are you saying it would be better to trade one of our starting unit away so we can have a project big man who may or may not work out? Because if we don't trade a starter away and we pick up a bad contract we don't have enough money to resign Lance.

Last edited by aamcguy; 11-15-2013 at 12:03 AM.

My prediction: Solomon Hill is going to lead the team in Surprisingly Good Plays for the year. -10/29/2014

Re: Granger To Resume Practice

Here's how it works. We give them an expiring. They give us a semi-bad contract and a great prospect to replace Scola and ultimately West. Recall that Lance and PG don't hit prime for another 4 years when those guys are retiring.

Four years, hell!

I don't know about your thoughts, but the Pacers are in win it all NOW mode. They are in that mode right now, they will be in that mode next season, the season after that, and so on. For several years, anyway. That means we aren't taking back any bad contracts, period. We can't afford to.

And we don't get rid of Scola. We keep Lance. If Granger proves worth keeping, we even pursue it, even while knowing it's nearly impossible. We keep all present starters, plus Scola and Watson. To make these things happen, we do as many of the following things as necessary to make it happen, in the order listed.
1. Dump Copeland.
2. Dump Mahinmi for a less expensive option at center.
3. Dump Solomon Hill for a future 2nd round pick.
4. Don't pick up the team option on Sloan.
5. Don't pick up the team option on OJ.

Even if we want Danny, but we know early on that we just won't be able to make it happen, then hopefully 2 through 5 above will not be necessary.

Re: Granger To Resume Practice

How are we supposed to afford the semi-bad contract AND the prospect AND keep the starting 4 together AND resign Lance?

With the switch from Granger + Paul George to just George we only gain enough money to pick up a player on a minimum salary. Or are you saying it would be better to trade one of our starting unit away so we can have a project big man who may or may not work out? Because if we don't trade a starter away and we pick up a bad contract we don't have enough money to resign Lance.

A trade could work. We would need to take an expiring from them as well to get it done (i.e. to match salaries within the pct necessary). But it could work pretty easily with the right trading partner if a expiring the size of the minimum were a big enough carrot along with rolling the dice with Granger. It would never involve the starters or Scola.

Re: Granger To Resume Practice

I don't know about your thoughts, but the Pacers are in win it all NOW mode. They are in that mode right now, they will be in that mode next season, the season after that, and so on. For several years, anyway. That means we aren't taking back any bad contracts, period. We can't afford to.

And we don't get rid of Scola. We keep Lance. If Granger proves worth keeping, we even pursue it, even while knowing it's nearly impossible. We keep all present starters, plus Scola and Watson. To make these things happen, we do as many of the following things as necessary to make it happen, in the order listed.
1. Dump Copeland.
2. Dump Mahinmi for a less expensive option at center.
3. Dump Solomon Hill for a future 2nd round pick.
4. Don't pick up the team option on Sloan.
5. Don't pick up the team option on OJ.

Even if we want Danny, but we know early on that we just won't be able to make it happen, then hopefully 2 through 5 above will not be necessary.

You completely misunderstood my post. There is no intention of moving West or Scola for years.

Edit: I thought that was clear from the context. I see how it could be read though.

Re: Granger To Resume Practice

I don't know about your thoughts, but the Pacers are in win it all NOW mode. They are in that mode right now, they will be in that mode next season, the season after that, and so on. For several years, anyway. That means we aren't taking back any bad contracts, period. We can't afford to.

And we don't get rid of Scola. We keep Lance. If Granger proves worth keeping, we even pursue it, even while knowing it's nearly impossible. We keep all present starters, plus Scola and Watson. To make these things happen, we do as many of the following things as necessary to make it happen, in the order listed.
1. Dump Copeland.
2. Dump Mahinmi for a less expensive option at center.
3. Dump Solomon Hill for a future 2nd round pick.
4. Don't pick up the team option on Sloan.
5. Don't pick up the team option on OJ.

Even if we want Danny, but we know early on that we just won't be able to make it happen, then hopefully 2 through 5 above will not be necessary.

1) okay w losing Copeland. tho I think he has value. get to this in a min.
2) lovin mahinmis work this year. not willing to give him up. need to add to the bigs not subtract. mahinhmi is busting his tail.
3) yall are down on solo ive noticed. all good. he's a wing they are replaceable.
4) like what I see from sloan so far. hes cheap
5) I like OJ. maybe limited but I like him. hes cheap.

down with moving cope,mahinmi, granger but were talkkng nba 2k here now. I certainly do not doubt Bird for a moment at all.

Re: Granger To Resume Practice

Trading Danny simply is not an option if you want to re-sign Lance. If Larry was able to pull off such a trade where we would still somehow able to keep Lance, it would be the greatest trade ever period. You only even consider trading Danny if you know there is no way you are able to re-sign Lance or Danny, and if that is the case then the right choice is to just ride them out and go for a championship. Otherwise it comes down to who can you afford Danny or Lance, and Lance's age is the tie breaker.

Re: Granger To Resume Practice

Points per game is never an adequate metric for any player on any team. It's as useful as pitcher wins or RBIs in baseball.

Basic stats tend to be way overrated, like steals, assists, and rebounds. They are easy to understand, but not always representative of reality. I don't care about how many total rebounds you get, I care about how many offensive rebounds you get and how many offensive rebounds you give up. I don't care about how many steals you got, I care about how well you prevent your opponent from scoring, and I don't care how many assists you got I care about if you made the right pass to the right person. These stats can be a simplistic representation of this, but often are not completely accurate. You can make the right pass every time, but if the shooter doesn't make the shot you don't get the assist.

Re: Granger To Resume Practice

...and the alternative solution is to let Danny walk and get nothing in return? It's been done I suppose...

Without Granger right now we have hibbert, west, PG, lance, hill, mahinmi, scola, and CJ playing. That is 8 solid rotational guys on your team assuming you resign lance. You also have cope, OJ, and Sloan. If we just keep our team intact we are stacked.

I men, you're looking around for a team in the league that wants an expiring. That apparently has value. Why is it not value for us? To me, the logical thing to do is wait until we need to replace west and then use the MLE to sign a starting caliber PF. Teams aren't falling over each other trying to give up good prospects for expiring contracts.

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My prediction: Solomon Hill is going to lead the team in Surprisingly Good Plays for the year. -10/29/2014

Re: Granger To Resume Practice

Basic stats tend to be way overrated, like steals, assists, and rebounds. They are easy to understand, but not always representative of reality. I don't care about how many total rebounds you get, I care about how many offensive rebounds you get and how many offensive rebounds you give up. I don't care about how many steals you got, I care about how well you prevent your opponent from scoring, and I don't care how many assists you got I care about if you made the right pass to the right person. These stats can be a simplistic representation of this, but often are not completely accurate. You can make the right pass every time, but if the shooter doesn't make the shot you don't get the assist.

Right, they provide no context. If a guy scores 20 a night clearly he's got some talent. But is he getting 20 a night by being Rudy Gay or by being Steph Curry? Baseball's well into their "advanced stats" revolution, basketball needs to get there. The fans I mean, the front offices definitely already are. The "advanced" NBA stats aren't even complicated, not like it's WAR or FIP or something. Just stuff like eFG% and rebound rates tell you far more about a player.

Oh, and this isn't some kinda rant on Anthem or anything, just an opportunity presented itself I guess. I just really hate basic counting stats.

Re: Granger To Resume Practice

...and the alternative solution is to let Danny walk and get nothing in return? It's been done I suppose...

Sadly that's the price of being all in now. Granger isn't going anywhere this year and it doesn't matter if he returns to all star form or doesn't play another game. There are any number of ways things can play out between now and the end of the season but the most likely outcome is that Granger will be gone after the run this year.

Re: Granger To Resume Practice

Dannys not going to average 15 on this team. he doesn't have to. an 80% Granger with 25 minutes in a 5 game sample size is probably something like this at max as this team is constructed for success.

12, 18, 16, 10, 13. 13ppg at best for an 80% Granger on this roster. Were loaded.

I would prefer lockdown defense 4 boards and 10 pts in 25.

If Danny returns to complete health with no limits then you'll eventually see PG and Lance lose a few minutes which is a good thing since they're both playing too many now and with that they'll both likely drop in ppg a little which can also be a good thing to have an even more balanced attack. I can see Granger being our 2cd. leading scorer in the scenerio. There are way too many unanswered questions to say what will happen yet and we're still only 8 games into a long season.

Re: Granger To Resume Practice

...and the alternative solution is to let Danny walk and get nothing in return? It's been done I suppose...

Which is worth more, the LT space or the players we'd get in return for him and not being able to pay Lance because we'd have extra contract years for that equivalent salary?

We do NOT "get nothing in return". We get the exact same salary space someone else would be trading for him to get. Why are people convinced he is hugely valuable in that fashion to another team but for us to take advantage of it would be a waste?

BillS

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