1 <Day 10. Wednesday, 26th January 2000. 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving? 3MR IRVING: My Lord, may it please the court. Two minor 4housekeeping matters: first of all, I have postponed my 5two witnesses until later because, obviously, we are in 6the middle of Professor van Pelt's cross-examination, and 7that is the witnesses Fox and Peter Millar. 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: I hope that does not cause problems. 9MR IRVING: Not at all, no. I dealt with them last night about 10this. So one of the things I gave to you in the bundle 11yesterday morning referred to the Millar. It is a section 12of the 1992 diary. It will presumably be in your ---- 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have it loose and I will keep it loose. 14MR IRVING: Keep it loose or put it in J. 15 My Lord, the other minor matter concerns once 16again the press. 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. 18MR IRVING: From today's press coverage -- particularly I am 19referring to the Times -- one gets the impression they are 20relying more on hand outs than on their personal 21experiences in the courtroom. 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: I saw the report. I did not read it. What 23about it are you concerned? 24MR IRVING: Purely, that there were things in the article which 25were not in the testimony yesterday, and I am not in any 26way pointing a finger at the Defendants on this. It may

. P-2

1well be there are third parties who are doing this and 2providing copies of the Professor's report or something 3like that to the press. This clearly disadvantages me. 4 I am aware of the fact that your Lordship is 5sitting without a jury, so this is of less moment, but if 6it in any way gradually affects or put wrong guidelines on 7public opinion and skews public opinion in some way, then 8this may indirectly be seen to be affecting the outcome of 9this decision. 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, I am afraid that really is a sort of 11fact of life that you just have to put up with. Really, 12what matters here for my purposes is whether I am going to 13be influenced by it and, as I have not read it, I will not 14be. 15MR IRVING: Very well, my Lord. Clearly, it would be improper 16for any of the parties in this case to start putting hand 17outs to the press in the way I appreciate the law is on 18contempt which would disadvantage the other party. 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: If anything that really does disturb you 20comes up, mention it, but at the moment I do not think 21there is anything that can usefully be done about what 22appeared or, indeed, should be done. So I think we might 23as well get on. 24MR IRVING: Very well, my Lord. It will probably assist your 25Lordship if I now just in one topic paragraph, so to say, 26outline what I intend doing ----

. P-3

1MR JUSTICE GRAY: I would find that very helpful. 2MR IRVING: --- for the next hour, shall we say? Firstly, 3there will be no more traps being sprung. I am sure that 4the Professor will appreciate advance notification. There 5are no more hidden booby-traps or mines, but I am going to 6be dwelling briefly on crematorium No. (ii) still for a 7while because I believe the Professor wishes to make 8certain comments on what I said yesterday. 9 I then want to have a look at the quality of the 10eyewitness evidence that the Professor was relying upon, 11in particular the witnesses Tauber and Bimko and Broad. 12Then we will move to Auschwitz, the main camp, and have a 13look at the alleged gassing facilities there. 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. Thank you for that. 15MR IRVING: If I can just recapitulate where we were when we 16ended yesterday and invite the Professor to state what 17comments he had on that. This was the fact that we had 18established, I believe (and I am sure the Professor will 19correct me when the time comes if I am wrong) that the 20evidence on which he based his contention that crematorium 21No. (ii), the mortuary No. 1 in that crematorium, the 22underground mortuary, was, in fact, a gas chamber, was 23entirely eyewitness evidence, what we would call anecdotal 24evidence from certain named eyewitnesses. 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think he would, accept but that may 26be what you are putting to him.

. P-4

1MR IRVING: He may wish to tell the court what other evidence 2he is relying upon. I shall certainly invite him to do 3so. If I may continue? The evidence then is that the 4roof has pancaked downwards, has remained relatively 5intact, sufficiently in tact that one can draw certain 6conclusions from its present condition, and that in its 7present condition it certainly shows no signs of the holes 8through which allegedly the murderers poured the cyanide 9capsules into the chamber below. They should certainly 10have been visible, in my submission. 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, that is the point we were on yesterday 12evening. 13MR IRVING: This is where we left it yesterday evening, my 14Lord. 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, absolutely. 16< PROFESSOR VAN PELT, Recalled17< Cross-examined by MR IRVING, continued.18Q.
[Mr Irving]
Professor van Pelt, do you disagree with any part of that 19brief summary? 20A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
My Lord, I do. 21Q.
[Mr Irving]
Right. With which part do you disagree? Shall we take it 22stage by stage? My contention that your belief that this 23building was a homicidal gas chamber rests solely on the 24eyewitness evidence of those named eyewitnesses? 25A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I disagree with that statement, and I can bring in some 26other evidence, if you would like to consider it?

. P-5

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
Was this other evidence contained in any of your reports 2or in your published book? 3A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
It is contained in a report. It is also contained -- it 4is basically a number of images I would like to introduce 5right now. 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can I just be clear? Are we talking about 7crematorium (ii) or generally? 8MR IRVING: We are still talking about crematorium No. (ii), my 9Lord, the one of which we had these large photographs. 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I just wanted to be clear. 11MR IRVING: We are talking specifically about the Leichenkeller 12No. 1. 13A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Or, even more specifically, we are talking about the way 14Zyklon-B was introduced in that Leichenkeller by means of 15wire mesh columns which above ground were capped with a 16kind of introduction device, a chimney like introduction 17device. 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
Rather like a funnel of some kind? 19A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Some kind of little chimney. 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
Was this introduction device made of wire mesh or was it 21made of concrete or do you have any evidence? 22A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Tauber describes it as a chimney with a concrete lid, but 23I would like at the moment, with your permission, just to 24introduce the evidence and maybe we can consider the 25evidence. 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
This is the eyewitness Tauber you are referring to?

. P-6

1A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. My Lord, I would like to go to core file Auschwitz 22, the trial bundle,. 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: K2 we are talking about? 4A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No. 2, K2, and I would like to go to tab 1 where it is 5called "Plans and blueprints", and I would like to go to 6page No. 10 and No. 10A. 7MR IRVING: Handwritten 10? 8A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I think it must be a handwritten 10. 10A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. It is 22 printed and 45 printed, but it is 10 and 1110A. That is how the numbers of the sequence in which 12these images are in the file. 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: These are photographs? 14A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
These are photographs, and what we see here is we have an 15image of the back of crematorium (ii) in February 1942. 16You see it is winter. The photo is very clear. There is 17snow on the ground. We are looking at the foreground is 18actually the construction site of the Klaranlage, the 19sewage waste, the sewage treatment plant. We look at the 20back of the crematorium, and we see there the main 21building with the roof and the chimney and then, jutting 22out from that building and it is clearer on the next page, 23we see the gas chamber, or the morgue No. 1 as a kind of 24box, a low box like structure, and on top of that we see 25four boxes. It is certainly three of them are very clear 26and maybe the fourth one to the left right under the

. P-7

1window. This would be the third double window from the 2left of the building. We see these box like, chimney 3like, structures which jut up from this low, this low box 4like structure, which is morgue No. 1. 5 This is a picture of the building as it was on 6the construction. Shortly after this photo was taken the 7gas chamber itself, or the morgue No. 1 itself, was 8covered with dirt, and so that the projection of the 9little chimneys above the level of the roof of the morgue 10in the final result would probably have been less, but we 11do not, of course, know if we look at the finished 12chimneys right now or if these were in some way still 13capped with another kind of structure. 14 So this is, I think, a very important piece of 15evidence because this is a photo taken by a member of the 16SS Bauleitung, Schaffuhrer Kaman. He was the only one 17allowed with a camera in the camp and this photo very 18clearly shows the structures. 19MR IRVING: Can I interrupt you at this point? 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, of course. 21MR IRVING: Right. I am anxious to let the witness have his 22say, but you refer to them as "chimneys"; of course, they 23are not. They are objects on this photograph. We do not 24know what the objects are. Professor, have you, 25presumably, in your life visited a building site? 26A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes.

. P-8

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
And have you seen flat roofs on building sites under 2construction? 3A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
Have you seen these roofs when they are being treated with 5some kind of substance to water proof them? 6A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
What does the substance come in? Would I be right in 8saying it comes in 40 gallons drums or something like 9that? 10A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I would not be able to comment on that. I mean, if you 11want to assert it comes in 40 gallon drums, I will accept 12that. 13Q.
[Mr Irving]
But it comes in drums, does it not? These drums stand 14around the roof while the men brush it up and down on the 15roof. This kind of thing happens? 16A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
That is quite possible. 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
And this photograph was taken in the winter of 1942? 18A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
At this time this particular building was under 20construction, was it not? They were stilling 21completing ---- 22A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
It was under construction. 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
It was under construction. Of course, if we cut straight 24to the bottom line in this, if we are to accept your 25hypothesis or theory that these were rather irregularly 26spaced openings in the roof, and these were some kind of

. P-9

1pipe on top of that, as I understand you are putting to 2the court, with some kind of cover on top, then we would 3expect to find the openings in the roof, would we not, or 4some trace of those openings in the roof even today? Here 5is the roof now, that is the very roof we are talking 6about, is it not? That has pancaked downwards. The 7underside of the roof is largely intact. You can see just 8where those columns would have been then, these openings 9would have been, and there is not the slightest trace of 10them, is there? 11A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I have said, it is in my report that one cannot observe 12these things, but I have also said before that when the 13gas chamber was dismantled before the destruction of this 14building, two months before the destruction of this 15building, it would have been a very likely, I mean, the 16obvious solution would have been to actually close these 17holes. Now, I have also mentioned yesterday ---- 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
I am going to question you on that in a minute. 19A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I wonder if I should go back to the discussion of 20yesterday or address straight the issue of the boxes with 21material, the alleged boxes with the material on the roof. 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
Well, we will come back to the alleged boxes with material 23on the roof, but I must hold up your statement to the 24court where you said that just before demolition of the 25building, workers were sent in with the instructions to 26fill the holes with cement or concrete or something?

. P-10

1A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
This is an inference on my side because you do not want 2these holes in the roof of a space to remain. When you 3have taken out the columns, it is an obvious conclusion 4that you would close these holes. 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
I can see his Lordship frowning and I think the whole 6court is inwardly frowning about this rather improbable 7story, implausible idea. 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, just for the record and for the 9transcript, I did not frown. 10MR IRVING: I am sorry, my Lord. 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us get on with the question. 12MR IRVING: Yes. The implausibility of the story, that before 13putting in packs of dynamite beneath the building to blow 14everything up so that the Red Army does not find any 15criminal traces, they send in workmen with buckets of 16cement and trowels and tell them to make good the holes in 17the roof. This sounds, I must say, totally implausible to 18me, and we know now that it never happened because the 19roof is there and there is not the slightest trace of such 20patchwork having been done on the concrete? 21A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
My Lord, it is at the moment impossible to see because of 22the state of the roof if there was patchwork or not. The 23roof is fragmented. The roof has weathered very, very 24badly over 50 years, and the colour of concrete in the 25roof is of a motley quality, to say, and there is a lot of 26growth has been on the roof. It is impossible to tell one

. P-11

1way or another. 2Q.
[Mr Irving]
We are talking about the underside of the roof, of course, 3and we have any number of photographs of the underside of 4that roof where you can actually see the original wood 5grain in the formwork on the concrete that survives, and 6that shows not the slightest displacement or interference 7or tampering with. This is the implausible part of your 8story. I appreciate that you are anxious to move on to 9other topics because, frankly, this blows holes in the 10whole of the gas chamber story. If there are no holes in 11that roof, no holes in that roof, there are no holes now 12and there were no holes then, and that totally demolishes 13the evidence of your so-called eyewitnesses? 14A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
My Lord, I have already yesterday pointed out that the 15column which remains and over which the room has been 16folded is the second column which was not the column where 17the column, the Zyklon-B introduction column was attached 18to, there were four of them, attached to column 1, 3, 5 19and 7. May I address ---- 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: I wanted to ask you -- may I do it now -- 21about the columns because I understood your evidence 22yesterday to be that jutting out, as it were, from the 23roof of the alleged gas chamber there were the columns as 24well as the metal apertures through which the Zyklon-B, 25you say, was poured? 26A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
The columns -- it is unlikely, my Lord, that the ----

. P-12

1Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Did I misunderstand that? 2A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
--- columns would be going through the roof completely 3because the columns themselves were wider. They had these 4three concentric layers, but what would have happened is 5that there were a hole through the roof, and then on the 6top of it you get a kind if chimney like structure, and as 7long as the hole is connected to the innermost, to the 8innermost kind of column inside and of the same width so 9that this little thing can be brought up and down which 10ultimately allowed people to retrieve the earth in which 11the Zyklon was absurd during transport. As long as that 12hole was the same as the diameter of the inner column, 13then whatever you do above the roof is irrelevant. 14I mean, you can have a box or you can have just a lid 15there. 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: I follow. But the question I am really 17trying to get at is this. If your evidence is that the 18pillars were protruding above the level of the roof ---- 19A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
You said the Zyklon-B introduction pillars? 20Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Well, that is what I am asking you. I thought you said 21that the pillars, the structural pillars, were 22protruding ---- 23A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No, the structural pillars did not and do not. 24Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Well, that was my misunderstanding of your evidence. 25A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
We have a blue print which shows those pillars and we can 26look at if you want.

. P-13

1Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Whilst I am asking you questions, I am not sure you have 2really responded to the suggestion that was implicitly 3being put to you by Mr Irving which is that these objects 4that one can see on the roof of the gas chamber, alleged 5gas chamber, are, in fact, drums containing some sort of 6sealant. You have not actually dealt with that 7suggestion. 8A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No, and I would like to deal with that, if it is 9possible? 10MR IRVING: Are you saying that all four of those objects were 11the pipes, as you call them? 12A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No, these would be, this would be the chimney. There 13would be some structure around the pipe, because if you 14just have a pipe coming up, you want to have probably some 15kind of insertion mechanism. If you take a tin of 16Zyklon-B, that probably there is a little funnel attached 17to, and also you want probably not the pipe to run 18straight through the earth, you probably want to have some 19kind of protection around that pipe. 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
My Lord, can I draw your attention to picture 10A in K2? 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. I still do not think, Professor van 22Pelt, you have really dealt with the suggestion that these 23are drums containing sealant. Could that be so? 24A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I would like to deal with it. 25Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Deal with it now. 26A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
First of all, we are coming, of course, in a -- the

. P-14

1problem is the exact dating of this image. If this image 2had been taken, let us say, in November, December, let us 3say December 1942, I think it could have been a plausible 4suggestion. I mean, we would have to look then in what 5shape of tins sealant is coming, but let us assume that 6this is, this is December, at that moment we know that 7there was construction activity on the roof. We also know 8that by the end of January, I mean, in fact, by the middle 9of January already, from correspondence, that the roof of 10morgue No. 1 had been completed, and one of the reasons 11for that we know that is the notorious Fergantung's letter 12of January 29, 1943. So, what is the reason that we know 13that this is not December 1942, but that this is or that 14we are already talking about probably February 1943. 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: I thought you said '42, I am bound to say. 16MR IRVING: November '42? 17A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
My argument is that Mr Irving's argument could be taken 18seriously at least for a moment until we have established 19what shape these containers come if this photo had been 20taken in December 1942. My argument is that the roof was 21already completed by January 1943. 22 My second argument is that one can, if one looks 23carefully at this photo, see that there is some kind of 24black line on the top of the chimney. There seems to be 25some soot on the top of the chimney which means that the 26chimney, as it is depicted in this photo, has had some

. P-15

1kind of activity already. 2 We know that there were trials, the first trial 3firing of the incinerators was, in fact, in late January 41943. That was the first trial firing of the 5incinerators. On the basis of that, it is very clear that 6this photo must be taken after the first trial firing of 7the incinerators. That is again the letter of 19, 29 8talks about the trial firing of the incinerators, 9otherwise there would be no soot on the top of the 10chimney. 11 On the basis of that, it is possible to date 12this photo at least after the end of January 1943 when the 13roof was completed and, therefore, would be no reason at 14that moment for any other kind of boxes with sealant to be 15on the roof. 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can I just ask one question and then I will 17stop? How do you date this photograph as February '43? 18A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Because we know that by early March '43, the whole 19building was completed and, by implication, the gas 20chamber would have been covered with dirt. We know also 21-- so that is the last date that is possible. I mean, 22these photos are not dated. 23 We also know that the first experimental firing 24of the incinerators happened in end of January 1943. So 25it must have been, this photo must have been taken after 26the end of January 1943 and before the official completion

. P-16

1of the building in early March 1943. This is why I say 2February. 3MR IRVING: Professor van Pelt, have you seen a photograph of 4that roof with just snow on it and no kind of 5protruberances at all, that flat roof? 6A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes, I think there is a photograph of that, yes. 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
What conclusions do you draw from examining that 8photograph? Those protruberances were moveable? 9A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
If you present me to the photograph, I will draw 10conclusions from it. 11Q.
[Mr Irving]
You say you have seen the photograph. If there is a 12photograph of that roof with flat snow on it, a pure sheet 13of white snow, and no protruberances on it, and that 14implies that the protruberances were mobile and could be 15carried around like drums of tar, for example? 16A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Mr Irving, I am not going to speculate upon a photograph I 17do not have in front of me. If you present the photo, I 18am very happy to explain that photo and I have an 19explanation for that photo. 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: Professor, actually I think you are wrong on 21this point because you have accepted there is such a 22photograph. You have seen it. Can you not help Mr Irving 23-- he obviously has not got the photograph -- by giving 24the explanation that you obviously have? 25MR IRVING: I have the photograph but not immediately 26available, my Lord.

. P-17

1A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
OK. Then the explanation is simple. What happens is that 2after the dirt was brought on top of the roof of the gas 3chamber or morgue No. 1, the protection of these chimneys 4would have been less. If we then had snow on top of that, 5it is very unlikely we would have seen much of these 6little chimneys. 7MR IRVING: I only have one more question going to these 8protruberances on the roof. You say the Germans are 9basically a very methodical and orderly kind of people 10when they design their buildings; they are not arty 11crafty. They do not put a pillar here and a pillar there 12and "Let us have two over there". They will put them in a 13straight line down the middle, as, indeed, we know they 14did in that very building, in the gas chamber, as you call 15it? 16A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
They are construction pillars we are talking about? 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, the construction pillars that go down the centre of 18the room, do they not, with one single reinforced concrete 19beam down the centre of the room? 20A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. 21Q.
[Mr Irving]
So these pillars go down the centre of the room. 22A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Not only Germans. I presume even English architecture and 23Canadian architecture do the same. 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
I am sure they do. Therefore, the wire mesh columns that 25you talked about which went up the side of the pillars 26would also be running down the centre of the roof, would

. P-18

1they not? 2A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No, not necessarily. I mean, you can put them either on 3the left or on the right side of the columns. 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
Can we have another look at that photograph, in particular 5the one on page 10A? Is it your impression that those 6four objects are evenly spaced? 7A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
It seems that the second object is slightly more, the 8second object from the right, seems to be slightly more to 9the left -- it seems to be at a different line than the 10first and the third. 11Q.
[Mr Irving]
Very well. Do they appear to you to be running down the 12centre line of that roof? 13A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No. 14Q.
[Mr Irving]
Or anywhere near the centre line of that roof? 15A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I do not know, near. It is very difficult to say in this 16photograph exactly where they are, but it seems to be in 17this perspective that the interpretation is that No. 1 and 18No. 3 maybe would be in line, but certainly No. 2 would 19not be on the same line as No. 1 and 3, going from the 20right, and No. 4 it is very difficult to determine exactly 21what that thing is. 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
Professor van Pelt, have you received just now a copy of 23this photograph of the underside of the roof? 24A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. I have it right in front of me. 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
You accept that the underside of that slab we are looking 26at there in the colour photograph, which is Leichenkeller

. P-19

1No. 1 of crematorium No. 2, is the room you identified as 2the room where 500,000 people were gassed to death? 3A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
Will you accept that we can indeed see a very large amount 5of the space of that underside of that roof? 6A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
It is very difficult from this photograph to say how much 7space it is. I have been under the roof and it is a very 8tight space when you go there, when you actually film it 9or photograph it, the scale becomes very difficult to 10determine. What we certainly see here is that, if indeed 11what we see in the front of this photograph is the bricks, 12and pieces of bricks, then actually we are looking in a 13very, very narrow space, because these bricks are this 14size more or less, so we are talking about a space here, a 15crawl space right now. 16Q.
[Mr Irving]
Like speediology, is it not, like cave hunting? It would 17be like going down into a very narrow cave, but all the 18same the people manage to get down there and take the 19photograph of that large area of roof space and you can 20see the lines of the formwork, the wooden lines where the 21concrete has been moulded into the wet concrete as running 22between the boards of the formwork? 23A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
You would expect therefore to find that interrupted in 25some way if there were these holes in the roof? 26A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I would like to point out to you that in fact, if we see

. P-20

1the kind of converging parallel lines of the formwork 2going from the top of the photo, then passing over at 3least two big kind of stains, which shows it is not very 4smooth, and then suddenly that formwork stops because 5there is actually a diagonal line going more or less from 6the top left of the picture to the middle of the right 7hand side, so the form work certainly not very regular, 8which it is very easy to see on this photo. 9Q.
[Mr Irving]
You do accept, do you not, that the whole of the story of 10the 500,000 people killed in that chamber rises or falls, 11rests or falls on the existence of those holes in that 12roof? 13A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No. 14Q.
[Mr Irving]
We only have the eyewitness evidence. 15A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I disagree with that. The whole story rises and falls on 16the evidence that this room was a gas chamber, which is a 17slightly different issue. 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
Well, setting that aside for a moment and we will come 19back to that other evidence in a moment, we still have not 20heard any other evidence than the eyewitness evidence we 21have heard about. 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, before you leave the photograph, 23took this photograph? 24MR IRVING: A number of, shall we say, revisionist researchers 25have gone down there and taken these photographs. 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: The professionals say it is revisionist

. P-21

1research. 2MR IRVING: It is revisionist research, my Lord, but the point 3I was about to make was, as your Lordship may apprehend it 4was, as it is now accepted and has been accepted for some 5years that the whole story rises and falls on the 6existence of holes, one would have expected the 7researchers at the other end of the spectrum to have been 8down frantically looking for those holes to prove us wrong 9and they have not. They have not bothered to scrape off 10the rubble on the top to look for the evidence on top of 11the holes. They have not bothered to make any kind of 12survey clearing aside this brick mess underneath, digging 13deeper in, looking for evidence that those holes exist and 14frankly, my Lord, I cannot accept the notion that the 15Nazis, in the last frantic days when we heard yesterday 16they were in a blue funk, blowing up buildings, taking out 17the equipment, dismantling everything nut and bolt, that 18they would have gone round with a bucket of cement filling 19in the holes of the buildings they were about to dynamite. 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is in the nature of a small speech and 21obviously you will be making that point later on, but for 22the time being press on with your questions. 23A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
My Lord, may I respond to this? Can I take the speech as 24a question? 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us deal with it slightly more 26evidentially. You are being asked for the evidence you

. P-22

1rely on apart from the eyewitnesses. 2MR IRVING: My Lord ---- 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: Just pause. You have your shout and I am 4going to have mine. You have identified the photographs 5which we have just been looking at, and I think we are 6going to want to know what other evidence you rely on. 7Mr Irving, that is not an inconvenient moment to ask that 8question, is it? 9MR IRVING: I was just going to ask one supplementary question, 10which is to your knowledge, Professor, have any 11investigations of the underside of that roof been made by 12the Auschwitz museum authorities or the Polish 13authorities? 14A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I do not know, my Lord. 15Q.
[Mr Irving]
Do you believe that, if there was any doubt as to the 16existence of those holes, or if there was any belief that 17those holes really existed, is it not likely that they 18would have made the most strenuous attempts to establish 19that fact? 20A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I cannot second guess the way the Auschwitz museum or the 21Polish authorities operate. What I do know is that they 22do not generally allow their research agenda to be set by 23revisionists. 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
Very well. 25A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
My Lord, may I introduce a second piece of evidence? 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. I would find it helpful, Mr Irving, to

. P-23

1know what other evidence. You started by asking what 2other evidence is there. 3MR IRVING: This is the question I asked earlier on and I did 4say that we would come back to that. 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: We have the answer now. 6MR IRVING: We have the eyewitnesses to whose integrity I shall 7be coming back later on this morning, but let us hear what 8else you have? 9A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
The second piece of evidence I would like to introduce is 10in tab No. 2, and it is circled photo No. 6, which is an 11air photo taken by Americans in the summer of 1944, which 12shows, if we look at that --, I do not know exactly how to 13turn it. If one looks at the photo from the side, we see 14crematorium (ii) to the right and crematorium 3 to the 15left. Now, one sees in this photo very clearly jutting 16out the undressing room. It is actually the entry at the 17end. It is like a little tab attached to it, and the 18morgue No. 1, and on morgue No. 1 there are four dots. In 19the same morgue No. 1 at crematorium 3 one sees those 20three dots. 21MR IRVING: You describe them as dots, Professor. Would you 22like to estimate how long those dots actually are? 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: The dots are going, as it were, in a line up 24to the top of the page. Are these the dots there? 25A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: I see.

. P-24

1MR IRVING: If I may point them out on this large colour map, 2my Lord, they go along this roof here, do they not, which 3is the alleged gas chamber? Right? 4A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
OK. 6A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
So that is a second piece of evidence, and I will leave it 7to this for the movement. I presume Mr Irving will 8challenge this and I will respond to his challenge. 9Q.
[Mr Irving]
I did ask you a question if you remember. This was, would 10you estimate on the evidence in front of you approximately 11how big those dots are? 12A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I find it very difficult. I do not know exactly how the 13shadow runs. 14Q.
[Mr Irving]
Is that a shadow or an object? 15 MR RAMPTON: My Lord, can I intervene to be helpful? There is 16an even clearer photograph, a medium enlargement, on the 17previous page in the bundle on the right-hand side. 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, that is a better photograph. I think 19that is helpful. 20 MR RAMPTON: It is even clearer. 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is it the same photograph? 22 MR RAMPTON: I do not know. The witness will know that. 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: More overexposed, as it were, than the other 24one. 25A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. It is not exactly. It was not taken from the same 26thing because you can see near crematorium 3, on the one

. P-25

1photograph you can see these lines going in, which 2actually were used for labels, attach labels to it, and 3when they were published in 1979 or so, and you do not see 4those lines pointing to crematorium 3, the morgue No. 1 5and the fence in the image on page No. 5, printed No. 4. 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: On page 5 crematorium (ii) is on the left. 7Correct? 8A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. Crematorium (ii) is on the left. 9MR IRVING: Are these the same photographs, Professor? 10A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No, they do not seem to be. I think they are the same 11photograph but they come from a different source. 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
I do not think they can be the same photographs Professor, 13because of course the shadow of the chimney is going in 14the different direction, unless I am wrong.. 15A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
The shadow of the chimney goes in the same direction. We 16see the shadow of the chimney going north west in both 17photos. 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think one may be the mirror image of the 19other but I am not sure it matters very much whether they 20are the same photographs? 21A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
So the question posed to me was the size of the objects. 22It is very difficult to determine the size of the objects, 23because of the way the shadow works. If one looks at the 24shadow of the chimney, one sees that the chimney really 25projects considerably out of the building, the shadow of 26the chimney. So it seems to be the sun is coming in this

. P-26

1case from the southeast. I do not know exactly what time, 2maybe it comes from the east more. 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: I would not build too much on that, because 4I think it could be the same photograph which has been put 5in the wrong way round, as it were. 6A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No, they are exactly the same. 7MR IRVING: I accept they are the same photographs. Would you 8agree that both the chimney of the crematorium and 9whatever these pipe like objects you say are would all be 10vertical? They would not be leaning in any one direction? 11A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
The object, you mean? 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes? 13A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
The chimney itself and the ---- 14Q.
[Mr Irving]
Both the crematorium chimney and the protruberances on the 15roof which you think these dots are, would they all be 16vertical? 17A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
So they would all cast shadows in the same direction, at 19the same angle, would they not, if that were so? 20A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes, that is quite likely. 21Q.
[Mr Irving]
On this photograph they clearly do not cast shadows in the 22same direction. The smudges or dots appear to be first 23one way and then another? 24A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes, that is the indeed true. 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
Are these dots visible on any of the other air photographs 26taken of that building?

. P-27

1A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes they are. 2Q.
[Mr Irving]
Either before or after? 3A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
Are you going to show these photographs to us? 5A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No. I just selected one. 6Q.
[Mr Irving]
Well, might I suggest that it would have been helpful to 7the court if you had produced the other photographs that 8you allege exist containing these dots? 9A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I thought that this was sufficient, but I presume the 10court can obtain them if they want it. But I think that 11these dots show very clearly that there are four 12introduction devices in morgue No. 1, or four something on 13top of that roof. 14Q.
[Mr Irving]
Professor, I strongly suggest that is a major quantum leap 15to suggest that a dot which on the face of it is about 15 16feet long on the roof of this crematorium building can 17have anything at all to do with the protruberances that 18you were talking about earlier, which at its largest 19extent in the eyewitness evidence that I have seen is of 20the order of 36 inches. 21A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Mr Irving, the whole of the width of what you call the 22alleged gas chamber I think is something like, what is it, 23a little less than 20 feet. So, if you look at the width 24of this room and you look then at the dots, we are 25certainly not talking about dots which are 15 feet wide. 26We are more looking at dots which are probably 3 feet

. P-28

1wide. 2Q.
[Mr Irving]
I strongly disagree. They are over one quarter of the 3width of that roof in all their versions and 4manifestations on these various photographs. 5A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I am not going to argue at moment about the width. 6Q.
[Mr Irving]
Moreover, they cast no shadow. 7A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
It is impossible to say what kind of shadow they cast. 8Q.
[Mr Irving]
They cast no shadow. 9A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Mr Irving, we are looking at an immensely enlarged image 10from a small negative. These negatives, by the way, my 11Lord, have been preserved. They are sitting all on a roll 12and they have been preserved. These photos have been 13analysed by two different parties. 14Q.
[Mr Irving]
Would you name those two different parties please? 15A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Mr John Ball in Canada and in British Columbia was the 16first one who analysed these photos in the early 1990s. 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
Is it not correct they were first analysed by a man 18called Mr Brigioni? 19A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes, the CIA. I am sorry, indeed the CIA published these 20photos in 1979. 21Q.
[Mr Irving]
About 1974, I believe? 22A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Whatever, 1974, 1979. 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
Are you aware of the fact that Mr Brigioni, the author of 24that publication of photographs, the CIA operative who, 25with a fellow author, first published these photographs, 26has recently published a book called Photo Fakery?

. P-29

1A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I am not. 2Q.
[Mr Irving]
In which he sets out chapter by chapter how easy it is to 3forge photographs, as we all know. Using modern computers 4and this kind of thing you can take people out of 5photographs and move people around. This same Mr Brigioni 6is an expert on photo forgery. Are you aware of that 7fact? 8A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I was not. I presume that, with today's computer 9technology, he indeed would be able to do this. 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: Are you suggesting, Mr Irving, that these 11photographs are forgeries? 12MR IRVING: I am not suggesting that per se, my Lord, but what 13I am suggesting is that one has to be alert to the 14possibility that somebody, for whatever reason, has put a 15smudge on these photographs. The National Archives of the 16United States, where the original photographs were housed 17in the cartographic division, at the time they were issued 18by the CIA, the National Archives issued a disclaimer 19saying these photographs, as they are housed in the 20National Archives Cartographic Branch, do not contain the 21labelling which the CIA has attached. They made no 22references to these actual dots or anything. They just 23dissociated themselves from the kind of treatment. 24A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
My Lord, may I continue? Because I was asked ---- 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. What question do you think you are 26answering?

. P-30

1MR IRVING: Do you have any opinion as to the integrity of 2these photographs? 3A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I have an opinion on the integrity of the photographs 4which is based on an analysis by Dr. Neville Bryant at the 5NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasodena done in 1996, 6and I actually was present in the room with him when he 7got his job. I was not present when he actually handed in 8the report. 9Q.
[Mr Irving]
Professor van Pelt, is this report of the Pasodena Jet 10Propulsion Laboratory in evidence before us? 11A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
It is not, but I have testimony of Mr Michael Schurmer, 12who commissioned the report, of the results and I just 13want do explain the position of Dr Bryant. He is the 14supervisor of cartographic applications and image 15processing applications at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory 16and he seems to be the most experienced analyst of air 17photos in the United States. 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
Is Mr Schurmer a friend of yours? 19A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No, he is not. We have met a couple of times. 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
Is there any reason why he would not have provided any 21written version of that testimony to you for the purposes 22you needed it for? 23A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I do not think that at the moment it is necessary to have 24a testimony by Dr Bryant in court. You will have to prove 25this is a fakery, Mr Irving. These photos are at the 26moment evidence as photos. If you want to say that this

. P-31

1is a fake, I would say prove it and then we can get the 2report of Dr Bryant. 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
Professor van Pelt, I think that his Lordship will educate 4you as to the burden of proof in an English defamation 5action. 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not sure that is really quite right. If 7you are not saying that these are fakes, and I think you 8just told me that you were not putting forward that 9positive case, then it does not seem to me that it is 10necessary for this witness to refer to the expert analysis 11at all. But, if you are saying it is a forgery or has 12been tampered with in some way, then it may be that we do 13need to see what the expert said. 14MR IRVING: In that case, my Lord, I think we ought to ask the 15witness as to the nature of the expertise given by the Jet 16Propulsion Laboratory, which did not go to the forgery 17aspect, as I understand it, but to the aspect of what 18those objects were and how large they were. Am I right, 19Professor? 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is that right? 21A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No. The question which was asked to Dr Bryant was very 22simple. The first question was: Had these negatives been 23tampered with? It was partly based on a suggestion by 24Mr Ball who had analysed them in 1990, using 25analogue machines, which means he did not use computer 26enhancement but he used analogue machine, in which Mr Ball

. P-32

1had said that in the CIA report things had been added to 2the photo, and this went very specifically to groups of 3prisoners being marched around the camp where at a certain 4moment one could see something like a little ---- 5MR IRVING: Brush marks? 6A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Brush marks which had been drawn in. 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is not these photographs, anyway, is it? 8A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
It is actually in these photographs, but it is too small. 9But that was one of the"proofs". It was that group of 10prisoners which is not seen in this enlargement. They are 11walking around in the camp. 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
Can we remain with these photographs, please? 13A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
They are in these photographs but not visual. I am just 14trying to explain the brief which Mr Bryant got. 15Q.
[Mr Irving]
Was he given the original negatives to look at or copies 16of the negatives? 17A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
The negatives are in Jerusalem. 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
The original negatives are in Jerusalem? 19A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes, there is a roll of negatives in Jerusalem. 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
How did the American government negatives come into the 21possession of the Jerusalem authorities? 22A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I have no idea. They are in the Abfashen(?) 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
Are you sure this is not just a duplicate made by the 24National Archives of the United States? 25A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I am not sure. I know there is a roll of negatives in the 26Abfashen and I have been always under the impression that

. P-33

1it is the original roll of negatives given to Israel 2because of the importance of this material. 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: What I think we are really looking for is 4what was the was conclusion at which Mr Bryant arrived? 5A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
What Dr Bryant did was analyse these images by using 6computer technology, and he said that the problem which 7occurred in marching these prisoners which were marching 8around is that the size of a head of a person is the same 9as the size of a grain in the negative, and that the 10result of that was that a morey effect which occurs when 11also in the newspaper when you photograph a picture which 12has been screened twice. This is one of the problems. 13When you go to the very small scale, it becomes very 14difficult to exactly understand the behaviour of these 15individual grains at that level. 16MR IRVING: Can we remain with the dots on the roof, please? Is 17there any morey effect visible on them? 18A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
We are basically talking about very small objects, and 19I do not know if there is morey effect on them. But the 20issue which Bryant had to address was that the so-called 21proof Ball had for the tampering with these photos were 22these lines of prisoners. Once Bryant showed that these 23had not been tampered with, that there had been absolutely 24no tampering with this image, then the issue of if they 25had been tampered with, the dots on top of the 26Leichenkeller No. 1, became in some way irrelevant,

. P-34

1because the issue which Ball had brought to him was based 2on those groups of prisoners. 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. So Bryant did not actually address the 4question whether these dots that we see on the 5enlargements were added, forged additions? 6A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No. He looked if there was any proof of addition to it 7and he had said no. 8Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Generally speaking? 9A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes, generally speaking. There is a second one and this 10is quite an interesting one. Again, the big problem with 11all of this of course is that nothing of this has been 12published. It would have been published by Schurmer if it 13was not for this libel case. People are waiting to see 14what the outcome of this libel case is. That is that 15these photos were taken in sequence, which means that it 16is a mechanical camera which starts running, and photos 17were taken for bombing raids on the Bunaplatz in 18Monowitz. So what happened is that, as the bomber starts 19to approach, this was probably taken by a Mosquito, the 20camera starts to run 10 to 15 minutes ahead of time, and 21starts taking photographs as it is approaching the bombing 22site. 23MR IRVING: It takes stereoscopic pairs, does it not? In other 24words, each photograph was a certain distance away from 25the next one in terms of seconds, so, when viewed through 26a stereoscopic viewer, you would get a stereoscopic effect

. P-35

1so that you could see if these objects were in fact just 2smudges on the roof of some kind, or plant growths, or if 3they were what you would call chimneys? 4A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I do not think that they were taken with the intention to 5be looked through a stereoscopic viewer. It was simply 6that the camera was running with a certain speed and, as a 7result of that, you can look at them with a stereoscopic 8viewer, which is a slightly different issue. 9Q.
[Mr Irving]
This was the system. They did not take two photographs 10simultaneously. They would take them at five second 11intervals to produce a stereoscopic effect? 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, I think we are straying a rather 13long way down a possibly unprofitable side alley. 14MR IRVING: In view of the fact that apparently, unless I am 15wrong, this is his only other evidence apart from the 16eyewitnesses. 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: We have not asked him that yet. I have the 18point. You are alert to the possibility that these may be 19forgeries. Dr Bryant apparently concluded they were not. 20MR IRVING: I have one more question to ask about the smudges 21on the roof as visible in the air photographs. What have 22you to say about the spacing of those smudges when you 23compare them with what I call the tar barrels on the roof 24in the other photograph? They are differently spaced, are 25they not? 26A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I cannot judge that. In the one photo we looking from

. P-36

1more or less ground level at these boxes, and now we look 2more or less straight from above and it is impossible to 3come to any conclusion one way or another. 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
I disagree with you. Would it not be correct to say that 5in fact there is a very uneven spacing in the four tar 6barrels visible from the ground, whereas the smudges on 7the roof appear to be admittedly irregularly spaced but in 8a totally different way. Therefore, they have no 9connection whatsoever with the protruberances that are 10visible from ground level. 11A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I have no comment on that. 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
Can we hear what other evidence you have that this 13building here, the Leichenkeller No. 1, of crematorium 14No. (ii) was a homicidal gas chamber, apart from the 15eyewitnesses and apart from the smudges on the roof? 16A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
These are the two images which confirm the eyewitness 17report, and then there are a number of drawings made by a 18survivor. 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
Mr Olaire? 20A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Mr Olaire, which are in tab No. 3. There are three 21drawings I would like to refer to. The first drawing is 22No. 1 printed 3. 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can you just remind me? Olaire was an 24inmate. Was he a sonderkommando? 25A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
He was a sonderkommando. 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: Drawing No. 3?

. P-37

1A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
It is circled in my horrible handwriting No. 1. 2MR IRVING: What tab are we under, please? 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: Tab 3? 4A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
It is a plan of crematorium No. (iii) which is the mirror 5image of crematorium No. (ii), so we have in some way to 6start to switch the left and right halves of our brain to 7understand this. What he has drawn in the room No. 3, 8which is, according to him, the gas chamber, are in fact 9four little blocks, four little squares, which are spaced 10from left to right, from left to right. They are labelled 11here, and of course they were not labelled at the time, as 12the Zyklon-B introduction openings. 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: Who did the labelling? 14A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
In the final publication of Olaire's drawings I think they 15were done by Klarsfelt or somebody who was working with 16Klarsfelt. 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: Did Olaire survive? 18A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Olaire survived, yes. He survived and he was very far 19from Poland when Tauber gave his testimony. He was 20liberated in Germany and then he went back to Paris 21immediately. So the chance of cross pollination, as 22Mr Irving calls it, is very little. There is a second 23drawing which is in 46, so we are now one year later. It 24could be a little bit more problematic except the fact 25that at that moment images of the crematoria were not yet 26published. I just would like to draw your attention to

. P-38

1drawing No. 5 which is an image of crematorium No. (iii) 2as people are coming in, and this was drawn in 1945 and at 3that moment ---- 4MR IRVING: Is that 1945 or 1946? 5A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
1945. 6Q.
[Mr Irving]
I do not have a date on mine. 7A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
OK, it says 1945. 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, it would not be 1946, would it? 9MR IRVING: These have been drawn from memory, am I correct? 10A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
These are drawn from memory. 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: I see. I thought he was drawing them whilst 12-- no, I see. 13MR IRVING: My Lord, this is very important you should 14appreciate these are drawn after the war. 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am afraid I had not, yes. 16A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
These are drawn from memory. What I would like to say 17that he seems to have a very good memory because the first 18time actually that either the plans or images of 19crematorium (ii) or (iii) was published was in 1946 in the 20book by Kraus und Kulgar. That is a very crude image 21which Kraus und Kulgar, they made a little model. The 22plans were not published by the Polish Commission in 231946. So we have here in 1945 someone who has been in 24that building, who lived in that building, who was a 25sonderkommando, who is a very, very experienced draftsman 26and painter, had a career before the war as a painter and,

. P-39

1obviously, has a good visual memory and who draws this 2building; and when one compares this building with the 3images of crematorium No. (iii), then in general one must 4say that, indeed, he remembered quite well. So I would 5say that this building suggests at least that he is at 6least knows what he sees and he is a credible witness as 7even when he works from memory. 8Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
What is it that you derive from photograph No. 5? 9A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Nothing, except that I want to show that it is remarkable 10that he is able to remember this building as well as he 11does without any visual aids. 12 Then we come to No. 6 which is a drawing he made 13in 1946 of the same building which is crematorium 14No. (iii). 15MR IRVING: Which is a mirror image of No. (ii), is that 16correct? 17A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. What he does there, there is one problem with this 18drawing because he has to try to represent something which 19is hidden, but we where see in the middle level, to say, 20that is the incineration hole with the ovens, the ovens 21which are labelled as No. H in this case, and we see 22No. I, we see the coke to the right, we see the little 23officers, the SS man sitting there with the window through 24which he looks at the incineration room, you see upstairs. 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
Which is the gas chamber in this building? 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: Bottom level, is it?

. P-40

1A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
At the bottom level, No. D. Of course, the gas chamber, 2taken from this perspective, would have been hidden by, 3when we see the soldier standing at No. C in the corridor, 4the gas chamber would have basically been running to the 5back out of the plain of the ---- 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: Towards the ---- 7A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Not towards, that would have been crematorium (ii). It 8runs away from us, if we go back to the original plan 9I showed you which was No. (i). So the problem he had of 10how to represent that gas chamber. So he drew it as if it 11is under the incineration room because there was no other 12way to really represent it, because he also wants to 13represent the undressing room which is No. A. You see 14there are basically two stairs, one stair to the left for 15people that are going down and we see the second stair is 16at No. B. 17MR IRVING: In other words, his memory was wrong; he drew it in 18a way it actually was not? 19A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No, his memory is absolutely right. 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
But you said that he drew it in a way that it is not 21because he wanted to represent it -- he could not do it 22otherwise? 23A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No, I mean, he had to represent the location of the gas 24chamber which is because the gas chamber jots out from the 25plain of the drawing. He now draws it under the 26incineration room, but, in fact, it goes, you know, it

. P-41

1goes to the back. I can do it, I mean, if this is the 2plain of the drawing, then the gas chamber would have gone 3like this, to the back. So he has to represent it one way 4or another and he does it a little bit in the way as 5probably somebody in ancient Egypt would have done it. 6Q.
[Mr Irving]
Was Mr Olaire ever interrogated or questioned? Did he 7provide eyewitness statements? 8A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No, I am happy to answer that he was not, but I would like 9to finish the drawing. 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, make your point on this because I have 11not understood it yet. 12A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
The major point is seen at No. E, one sees here in the 13drawing, and the photocopy is not very good, but E points 14at some shadow -- it is almost seems like a shadow going 15down from the roof of the gas chamber to the bottom, and 16then you see three others, and the most right one is the 17clearest one in this photocopy and these are the four wire 18mesh introduction columns. 19MR IRVING: This is in 1946? 20A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
This is in 1946. 21Q.
[Mr Irving]
You are saying that he has not heard any stories at all of 22what allegedly went on? 23A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I do not know exactly about the state of communication in 241945 and '46, but the eyewitness testimony about these 25introduction columns was given in May 1945 to Jan Sehn, 26but it was only published somewhere in 1946 and it was

. P-42

1actually the actual Kuhler document, and the actual, I 2mean, I mean the results were only published but the 3statements themselves were never published. 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
Am I not right in saying that Mr Tauber, when he gave his 5statements to Jan Sehn, there were many photo 6opportunities and his photographs were splashed all over 7the press with stories, the other eyewitness, and that 8would have been early 1946 or 1945? 9A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I do not know of any photo opportunities for Mr Tauber 10having been published in the press. If you can bring 11this, you know, I would be very happy to consider it. 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: Professor van Pelt, can I just make sure 13I have understood it, that when you say that these show 14the projections, whatever they may have been, you are 15talking about -- can you see -- that smudge there, that 16smudge there, that smudge there? 17A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No, that is actually, that is the installation which 18brings forced air into the ovens which actually, so that 19other little -- no, the smudges are going down. I tried 20to interpret what your finger is doing. 21Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
There? 22A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No, that is the door. That is the door. You are pointing 23now to the door. 24Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Hold up your plan and tell me where I am supposed to see 25evidence of these projections? 26A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Do you see the arrow with No. E?

. P-43

1Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Yes. 2A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
There you see where it just goes down, the arrow just 3points at a first line going down, but the most clearest 4one is the one ---- 5Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Oh, I see. 6A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
--- the clearest one is the one which is half a centimetre 7away from D Olaire, for his name. There are four of these 8columns quite literally drawn into this gas chamber going 9down. 10MR IRVING: But, in fact, he has it on the wrong side of the 11building. You accept that? 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, he has turned it 90 degrees on its 13axis, that is your evidence? 14A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. Then we have a third piece by Olaire which again is 15a drawing from 1946 which is No. 7. There we see two 16sonderkommandos who are collecting, as it says, gold teeth 17and hair in the gas chamber. Then we see in the 18background, we see one of those columns. 19MR IRVING: The cross-hatching, you mean? 20A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
The cross-hatching, yes. It is drawn in the same way ---- 21Q.
[Mr Irving]
Are you saying they actually did this job of removing the 22gold teeth and the hair actually inside the gas chamber? 23A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No. In general, they did it outside the gas chamber, but 24you must remember ---- 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
The picture says it is happening in the gas chamber, 26according to you?

. P-44

1A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
But you must remember that by the end of 1943 the gas 2chamber of crematorium (ii) was divided into two. There 3was a back gas chamber and there was a gas chamber in 4front. 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
Here is the wire mesh in the back of this picture? 6A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No, but there were two wire mesh columns in the back gas 7chamber and there were two wire mesh columns in the front 8gas chamber. 9Q.
[Mr Irving]
Coming out of these non-existent holes in the roof, is 10that correct? 11A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Whatever. What happened was that when the transports were 12smaller, one of the big problems in the gassing the 13Germans had was that normally they had to fill up the 14whole gas chamber for the gassing really to go efficient. 15So by actually dividing the gas chamber up into two, they 16could gas a group in the small gas chamber at the back, 17and then they could use the front room after the gassing 18for work which otherwise would be done in the much more 19tight confinement of actually the little porch or up at 20the exit of the elevator in the incineration room. 21Q.
[Mr Irving]
Can I ask what your source is for that statement? 22A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
The source for the statement that there were two gas 23chambers? 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: That they divided the gas chamber into two 25and used one half only for gassing? 26MR IRVING: Is this eyewitnesses again or do you have documents

. P-45

1that support that? 2A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No, there are eyewitnesses for that. 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. In other words, you do not have a document apart 4from these sketches from memory ---- 5A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I mean, at a certain moment if eyewitnesses say that the 6gas chamber was divided in two at the end of 1943, and 7Mr Bacon, for example, testifies to it that there has been 8a gassing in the Eichmann trial, that he came into the gas 9chamber to warm up, and that there has been a gassing in 10the second gas chamber right at the back, Mr Bacon did not 11need to prove one way or another about what was happening 12where. I mean, he was a kid who came into that gas, into 13that gas chamber. 14Q.
[Mr Irving]
Can we linger on No. 7 because I am very puzzled on this 15business of people extracting the teeth and cutting the 16hair inside the gas chamber with the bodies still piled 17where they lay? 18A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No, the bodies -- we do not know exactly ---- 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
He is telling us here in this picture, is he not? You 20yourself drew attention to what otherwise we might not 21have noticed -- thanks very much -- the wire mesh in the 22background? 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, I think the evidence is, and you 24may not accept it, that these bodies had been moved from 25the half of the gas chamber where they had been gassed 26into the other half where the removal of the hair and the

. P-46

1teeth took place. 2MR IRVING: And they just left this wire mesh column for no 3reason -- it was kind of left over from ---- 4MR JUSTICE GRAY: It was historical. I think that is the 5evidence. 6A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
The second gas chamber -- there were two gas chambers, 7they were right one behind the other -- the second one was 8used also when there were transports. We have a small one 9at the back. I mean, basically, half of the original gas 10chamber is used for small transports and the two are used 11for big transports. Of course, all the Zyklon-B 12introduction devices remain in that first room because the 13room is on occasions also used. 14Q.
[Mr Irving]
And you notice that none of these people are wearing gas 15masks of any kind, although they are handling bodies that 16have clearly been contaminated with hydrogen cyanide? 17A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I do not want at the moment to go into exactly ---- 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
Well, I do because this is an important point. 19A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
The testimony is that people were wearing gas masks when 20they went into the gas chamber itself to take the bodies 21out; that when these bodies were out, the dentists, the 22so-called dentists, did not need any gas masks any more to 23handle the bodies. 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
They had been subjected to doses of hydrogen cyanide, 25hundreds of bodies, and yet these people are just handling 26them like this?

. P-47

1A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
And the hydrogen cyanide by that time had been taken out 2of the gas chamber by ventilators. 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
How long did that procedure last then? I mean, we are 4trying to get some idea of the time scale of the operation 5involved. 6A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Around half an hour. 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
For all the hydrogen cyanide to evaporate off these bodies 8so these people could work on them quite harmlessly? 9A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
The ventilators, again eyewitness testimony says that the 10ventilators after the gassing that took around 20, 30 11minutes to take the gas out of the gas chamber. 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
Professor van Pelt, are you aware of a news item in the 13newspapers about two years ago, an American student had 14committed suicide with cyanide and when the rescue workers 15went in, the paramedics went in, nine of them were 16overcome by the fumes and were hospitalized afterwards? 17A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I did not read the Canadian papers, I am sorry to say. 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
This was an American newspaper and reported in the 19European press as well. I have the press clipping if you 20are interested. Nine of them were overcome by fumes from 21one body of a man who had committed suicide with cyanide, 22and they had to be hospitalized. So, on the face of it, 23this is quite an improbable picture we are looking at, if 24that is true? 25A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I think eyewitnesses will say that this is, indeed, what 26happened. People with gas masks go in the gas chamber to

. P-48

1remove the bodies and people without gas masks work on the 2bodies after they have been removed from the gas chamber. 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
Have you also read the testimony of some of the 4eyewitnesses, that they went in there smoking cigarettes 5and they went in there eating sandwiches, despite the gas 6masks? 7A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
My Lord, you will find my discussion on that whole issue 8in my expert report. Mr Irving at the moment is referring 9to an argument which has been made by Professor 10Faurisson. It is based on a complete falsification, 11misreading, misrepresentation, of the testimony of 12Mr Hirst. 13Q.
[Mr Irving]
Of Mr Hirst? 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: We can come to that in due course, no doubt 15---- 16MR IRVING: In other words, some eye witnesses we have to 17discount. 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- but at the moment, Mr Irving -- just 19listen to me; I would like to get some structure into it 20if we can -- we are taking Professor van Pelt through the 21reasons other than eyewitnesses for saying that ---- 22MR IRVING: This, of course, is clearly an eyewitness again, is 23it not? 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, will you just listen? We are 25taking Professor van Pelt through his evidence for saying 26that crematorium No. 9ii) was used as a gas chamber,

. P-49

1evidence apart from the eyewitnesses. We have seen the 2photographs. We have now seen the Olaire drawings. Can 3we move on and see whether there is any other evidence he 4relies on; if not, you can move on. 5MR IRVING: My Lord, I would like just to linger two or three 6more minutes with the Olaire drawings because I have not 7really had my say on them. 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: All right. 9MR IRVING: First of all, it is not correct that this is just 10another form of eyewitness evidence, if I can put it like 11that, Professor van Pelt? This is an eyewitness who has 12the capability of drawing as well as speaking about what 13he claims to have seen, is that correct? 14A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. 15Q.
[Mr Irving]
He is an eyewitness. Would you say that he is an 16eyewitness who is normally balanced and in command of his 17faculties or is there anything odd about him? 18A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I am not a psychologist. I think that these drawings, 19these drawings certainly seem to suggest, especially when 20we look at the architectural plans, when we look at the 21section of the building, that his powers of observation 22were perfectly in tact. 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
I must say there is a difference between the architectural 24plan which he provided in 1946 and the rather more lurid 25pictures and, of course, you know what I am talking about, 26earlier. Would you look at the picture No. 5 which is the

. P-50

1exterior of the crematorium with flames and smoke belching 2from the chimney. Now, would you agree that these 3crematoria, in which the Germans had invested a great deal 4of money in building, would have been built to the latest 5design standards? 6A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Design standards of what, Mr Irving? 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
For crematoria, following all the appropriate technical 8specifications? 9A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Mr Irving, we know very well that the Auschwitz crematoria 10did not follow the usual civilian crematoria design 11standards. 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
Is there one single photograph, apart from the forged one 13put by the Simon Wiesenthal Centre in their brochure 14(which they have admitted is a forgery) showing the 15chimneys of the Auschwitz crematoria smoking? 16A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
There is one ---- 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
Even smoking, let alone flaming like this one? 18A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
There is one photo, as far as I remember, in the images of 19the Hungarian action of 1944 which actually shows some 20smoke coming from a crematorium chimney. 21Q.
[Mr Irving]
This is the photograph I am referring to which the Simon 22Wiesenthal Centre have admitted now because they have been 23shown the comparison with the original, unretouched 24photograph. Can I describe this photograph to you? 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do you know about this? 26A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No, I do not know about the challenge to this photograph.

. P-51

1MR IRVING: Well, it is a photograph showing prisoners arriving 2from the Hungarian action in the foreground, and in the 3background can be seen a chimney of a crematorium. On the 4original photograph the chimney is not smoking, but in the 5version posted by the Simon Wiesenthal Centre in its 6publicity smoke has mysteriously appeared? 7A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I refer to the published version of the photo and the copy 8of the photo, which actually is a copy of the photo, a 9print of the photo, which I have seen in Auschwitz. 10I have never seen the Simon Wiesenthal publication. 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, the position is you will have to 12prove that in due course. 13MR IRVING: I will bring those photographs to court, my Lord. 14(To the witness): One more question about the Olaire 15pictures. Of course, have you seen all the Olaire 16pictures or just the ones you have produced at the court? 17A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I have seen all the Olaire pictures. 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, would it be right to say that he has a prurient 19interest in the female form? 20A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I do not know how this is relevant. I mean... 21Q.
[Mr Irving]
Concerning his mental balance. 22A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I think ---- 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
Or the purpose for which these illustrations were made -- 24let us put it like that. 25A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I think that if one would judge the ability of someone to 26bear witness on the basis of their interest in the female

. P-52

1form, I think that not many people would be able to give 2evidence. 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
Would you agree that in almost every single one of these 4pictures he has drawn, for whatever purpose -- there is 5another photograph that I have given there which is not in 6your collection -- there are naked women full frontal on 7to the artist's brush, so to speak, and that there is no 8reason whatsoever that he should have made these pictures 9in that way unless he intended to sell them. Is that a 10fair speculation? 11A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Mr Irving, I do not want to comment on what I understand 12your suggestion is that we are dealing here with a 13pornographer. I think it is absolutely not worth me to go 14into that. 15Q.
[Mr Irving]
I did not use the word "pornography". I said that his 16purpose in drawing these pictures was to produce a 17marketable item which he could sell in the media at some 18time? 19A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Mr Irving, you will have prove to me, if you want to me to 20comment on it, that he ever tried to sell these things in 21the media. 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
Let me put the question this way. Is it likely that 23nearly all the females who became victims of the 24bestialities of the Nazis in Auschwitz were nubile, young 25and attractive? 26A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No, it is not very likely.

. P-53

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
Not likely. Thank you very much. No further questions on 2this particular matter. I want to go back to the 3testimony of the witness Bimko, unless Professor van 4Pelt ---- 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can we just ask, is there any further 6material that you rely on, apart from the eyewitnesses, 7for saying that crematorium (ii) was used as a gas 8chamber? 9A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
We can go through the documents. If you want the 10construction documents of the crematoria, this will be 11quite a long exercise. 12MR IRVING: Are they explicit as to the use of the building? 13A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
We have documents which -- we have a document, for 14example, about the Vergasungskeller which you know well. 15We have a document about the ---- 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: We need not bother with that. We know about 17that. 18A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
--- the construction, the construction where at a certain 19moment we get an Auskleiderkellers in the basement. We 20talk about the introduction of hot hair into morgue No. 1, 21the proposition being made which breaks down very quickly 22after it has been introduced. I am happy to go in detail 23through those letters if you want me to. 24MR IRVING: We will deal, if you wish, with the introduction of 25hot air. We have dealt with the undressing room, 26I believe, earlier in this case?

. P-54

1A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Maybe you have dealt, Mr Irving, I have not dealt with it 2and his Lordship asked me if I wanted to introduce other 3elements. 4MR JUSTICE GRAY: I just want to get the full picture. I do 5not want you to spend very long on this, but you deal with 6this in your report, do you not, at some length? 7A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
In detail, yes. 8Q.
[Mr Irving]
So we could call this corpus of evidence the ---- 9 MR RAMPTON: My Lord, I do think that at some stage Mr Irving 10has to put it directly to Professor van Pelt what he says 11about the -- Mr Irving's thesis in cross-examination by me 12was that it was, indeed, a vergasungskeller, but that it 13was used for gassing lice or people that were already 14dead. 15MR IRVING: The way I put it was that it had alternative other 16uses. 17 MR RAMPTON: I do think at some stage Mr Irving has to allow 18Professor van Pelt to deal with that thesis which includes 19the references to "Auskliederkeller". 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: So no human killing but delousing? 21 MR RAMPTON: That was Mr Irving's response to my 22cross-examination and the evidence about the cyanide in 23the zinc covers and the word "Vergasungskeller", yes, 24indeed. They used it for gassing, clothes, people. 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: And objects. 26 MR RAMPTON: And objects.

. P-55

1MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think that is right. I do not when 2Mr Irving is going to come to that, but I think Mr Rampton 3is right in saying that that has to be put so that 4Professor van Pelt has the opportunity of dealing with it. 5MR IRVING: I certainly had not overlooked the need to do that, 6my Lord, but I was going to do it in a logical, systematic 7---- 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, you do it when you want to. 9MR IRVING: Yes, introducing two or three more documents before 10we got to that in which we have the word "vergasung", and 11so on, of a relatively harmless nature. 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: But what Professor van Pelt has said is that, 13in addition to the photographs and the drawings and so on 14which we have been looking at this morning so far, he 15relies also on what one might call the construction 16documents. 17MR IRVING: Yes, which he has just vaguely summarized as 18inferences to be drawn from them. But if we can just now 19go back to your reliance on the witness Bimko? Can we, 20please, have once again the reference in the bundle of 21documents, Auschwitz 1 or 2, to the Bimko testimony in the 22Belsen trial? While we are looking for it, can I confirm 23that that testimony is actually drawn in your version from 24the book by Raymond Phillips, the trial of Joseph Kramer 25and 44 others? 26A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes.

. P-56

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
So at the time you wrote your report, you had exactly the 2same pages in front of you that I have here which are 3pages 740 to 742 of the Phillips book? 4A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes, I presume so. I mean ---- 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 6A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
--- I presume it is only one edition. 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
Your contention is that you left nothing out of the Bimko 8testimony which was relevant to his Lordship and myself in 9evaluating the integrity of this witness? 10A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I have -- Mr Irving, I have said a couple of times 11yesterday that my intention in giving, in writing down 12that section was not to bring in Dr Ada Bimko as a major 13witness on whom I rely. The intention of that section, 14which contains also other evidence or other descriptions 15of the gas chambers and crematoria -- for example, the 16Polivoy account which was proven to be wrong -- was simply 17to show the development of knowledge about Auschwitz since 181942. It is in three sections. I start in 1942. I try 19to trace exactly how the knowledge became available and in 20what way. In that sense, of course, the Lunenberg trial 21had some importance, but much more importance because of 22the admissions of the people of Kramer and the others who 23were actually tried in that case. 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
Can I interrupt you at this point and say so, in other 25words, you concede that the Pravda account by Polivoy is 26totally or largely unreliable?

. P-57

1A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I have written in my report that is -- I do not think it 2everything, but it is a largely unreliable account as far 3as the description of the exterminations is concerned. 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
In other words, it is fanciful; it include things which 5never existed in Auschwitz. 6A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Oh, yes, I have no problem ---- 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
It is pure propaganda for the Allies or for the Russians? 8A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I do not think necessarily, Mr Irving, that this is 9propaganda for the Allies. We are dealing here with a 10writer, a correspondent, a war correspondent, attached to 11the Red Army who arrives in the middle of an offensive in 12a camp which shows, even of what remains there, it shows 13clear traces of a very big crime. 14 I think that we should remember that in 1945 15people had not yet experienced these kinds of 16installations; that these installations were in ruins and 17I think Mr Polivoy, partly probably on what he heard 18people say who had remained there which was largely sick 19people, and partly on the basis of his own imaginings, 20tried to imagine what such a place would have been. 21Q.
[Mr Irving]
Among the things the Russians found, was there a hospital 22full of sick people, including large numbers of sick Jews? 23A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
There were a number of lazarettes in the camp, yes. 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
Hospitals, yes. 25A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I do not think that a lazarette and a hospital are 26necessarily the same thing.

. P-58

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
A lazarette is a military hospital? 2A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
The lazarettes were barracks in which people were put. 3There was no medical equipment. There was nothing really 4to treat them. There were many descriptions of the way 5these lazarettes were operated. There are also documents 6relating to them. So I think I would not want to ---- 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
We do not need to go into the problems caused in the 8medical conditions in Germany. I am just asking, the 9Russians did find hospitals or barracks of a hospital 10nature in which large numbers of sick and unemployable 11people, including large numbers of sick and unemployable 12Jews, were housed, for example, the father of Anne Frank 13was there, is that not right? 14A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Mr Irving, when the camp was evacuated in the middle of 15January 1945, indeed, prisoners who were sick were men who 16could not make the march to the west remained behind. 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
But you appreciate the point I am making that, surely, the 18legend has it that the Nazis liquidated everybody who fell 19sick or who was unemployable? 20A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Mr Irving, in my report I think I have pointed out in 21response to things you have said about what happened to 22the Frank family, that by the end of 1944 the situation in 23Auschwitz had changed, that while until the end -- while 24throughout the history of the camp there were regular 25selections of sick, in the lazarettes of sick inmates who 26when they were considered to be incurable or too weakened

. P-59

1that they were taken to the gas chamber, that this policy 2had stopped -- first of all, it had been diminished in 3late 1944 and at a certain moment stopped. No gas 4selections were undertaken any more in the lazarettes in 5the end of 1944. This is one of the reasons that there 6were a relatively large amount of sick prisoners by the 7time the camp was evacuated. 8Q.
[Mr Irving]
So the Nazis are feeding large numbers of useless mouths 9who were Jewish and sick and they were in the jaws of 10death, they were in the heart of the extermination 11camp ---- 12A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Mr Irving ---- 13Q.
[Mr Irving]
--- and they were in hospital? 14A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
--- I would not want to infer any kind of thing about the 15regular procedures in the camp on the basis of what was 16happening there in December or January 1944 -- December 171944 or January 1945. 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
Do you now have in front of you the Bimko testimony? 19A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I do not have it right in front of me now. 20 MR RAMPTON: My Lord, it is H2(ii). It starts at footnote 404 21behind the tab 401 to 420. 22MR IRVING: You have conceded, in other words, that the Pravda 23account as an eyewitness account is largely unreliable? 24A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes, I have done that in my report so I have no problem 25with that statement. 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
So systematically we will now continue with the next

. P-60

1eyewitness. 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: Are we on Dr Bimko? 3MR IRVING: We are now on Dr Ada Bimko, as she was at that 4time. Her real name now, at any rate, Adassa 5Rosensacht(?) 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: She is still alive, is he. 7MR IRVING: I believe she is still alive. She is a leading 8figure, or was a leading figure, in the United States 9Holocaust Memorial Museum. She was an adviser and on 10their Library Council. (To the witness): Can we look at 11paragraph 1? 12A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Which footnote? 13Q.
[Mr Irving]
On page 740. Paragraph 1. This is, of course an 14eyewitness who is claiming to testify in a capital trial 15against captured Nazis who were on trial for their lives. 16She has made this deposition. At the end of paragraph 1, 17did you read the words when you were doing your research: 18"I have examined the records of the numbers cremated and 19I say that the records show that about 4 million persons 20were cremated at the camp"? 21A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
Have you any comment to make on the voracity of that 23statement? 24A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
It is unlikely that it happened, but I do not exactly know 25what record she was looking at. 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
Could she have looked at any records in Auschwitz and

. P-61

1found that 4 million people had been cremated? 2A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I do not know. I do not know exactly what records there 3were. The 3 or 4 million is very unlikely. 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. The figure of 4 million was, of course, the original 5propaganda figure put out by the Polish Government for 6whatever reason, is that correct? 7A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes -- it was a figure which was established actually, I 8do not say for propaganda reasons, it was a figure which 9was established by the Russians after they liberated the 10camp, the first ---- 11Q.
[Mr Irving]
But, of course, she is not testifying here that she has 12seen a figure put about by Russia propaganda; she says "I 13have seen the records and they show that 4 million people 14had been cremated"? 15A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
So, I mean, if you want to make a point, Mr Irving, that 16she is wrong there or that she maybe says something which 17she did not do, that is fine. 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
The point, obviously, which his Lordship will appreciate, 19as I am working towards this, you have had this document 20in front of you when you wrote this report. In the very 21first paragraph, when she is making this statement on 22oath, she has said a statement which, to your knowledge 23and to mine and to the court's knowledge now, is quite 24obviously untrue? 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think that is not actually right, is it? 26She is claiming to have looked at some records. We do not

. P-62

1know what the records were or what they show. She is not 2giving, as it were, false eyewitness evidence at that 3point in her statement, is she? 4MR IRVING: My Lord, I beg to differ. "I have examined the 5records of the numbers cremated." "I have examined the 6records and I say that the records show that about 4 7million persons were cremated at the camp". What other 8possible interpretation can you put on that statement? 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, I have just suggested one to you. 10Anyway, carry on with your questions. 11A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
My Lord, may I make a remark? 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. 13A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I think this would be an interesting exercise, and I do 14not want to judge it any further, if I had made use of the 15Bimko evidence in any way in relationship to did the gas 16chamber exist or not? I have never used -- I have just 17mentioned Bimko in this one particular context; the 18emergence of knowledge of Auschwitz. I have not used her 19anywhere else ever. I have not brought her here in as an 20eyewitness to the gassings, to the existence of Zyklon-B 21columns. 22MR IRVING: You just threw her in as a bit of spice? 23A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Sorry? 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
You threw her into your report as a bit of spice, did you? 25A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Not as a spice. 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
As one more statistic? So, instead of having four

. P-63

1eyewitnesses, you would have five? 2A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Mr Irving, I tried to give an impression of what was 3happening at the Lunenberg trial, what was said at the 4Lunenberg trial. 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
We know what happened at the Lunenberg trial. A large 6number of these unfortunates who were on trial were 7convicted and hanged on the basis of her testimony, 8including the person mentioned in the last paragraph, 9paragraph 8 on the next page: "On the day before the 10British troops arrived at Belsen", she said, "I saw Karl 11Flrazich [Francioh], who was a cook, shoot a man internee 12dead for stealing vegetables". Were you aware that in her 13oral evidence at the Belsen trial she said it was a woman 14that the man shot? 15A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Mr Irving, I did not know that, to be very honest, the 16witness Ada Bimko does not really interest me so much 17because I have not made use of her in reconstructing the 18history of any of the four crematoria. 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
So we are working towards the point where we do not have 20to strike off Mrs Bimko. There is one more thing I want 21to draw your attention to. At the beginning of paragraph 226, this woman who has medical knowledge -- she is a doctor 23-- writes: "Whilst at Auschwitz I saw SS male nurses 24Heine and Stibitz inject petrol into women patients". Are 25you aware, Professor van Pelt, that phenol injections are 26a standard treatment for typhus?

. P-64

1A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
In Auschwitz, I understand that phenol was used as a 2regular -- sorry, I will answer the question. I am sorry, 3for this. No, I did not know that. 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
Very well. So on top of the evidence we looked at 5yesterday where Bimko described cylinders of gas and pipes 6which you admitted was wrong, but possibly a 7misinterpretation of what she was -- you thought she might 8have seen the ventilation system -- we have no evidence of 9that. Bimko is, in other words, a totally unreliable 10witness and should not have been relied upon in any way, 11notwithstanding the fact that her evidence sent several 12men to the gallows in Lemberg? 13A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
My Lord, I do not want to judge the Lunenberg trial. 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, but do you accept that she is not a 15witness on whom reliance should be placed as to what did 16or did not take place at Auschwitz? 17A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I think that some of her statements are historically 18defensible and some of them probably not. This is also, 19of course, an issue of cross-examination. I do not think 20there was much of a cross-examination at the time. But 21I think this is with every, you know, with every witness, 22there always will be some things which will be wrong or 23will be mistaken. 24MR IRVING: Is there a possibility that with a witness like 25Bimko and Pauber who had suffered appalling indignities at 26the hands of the Nazis, that when the Allies came, in the

. P-65

1case of Bimko, it was the British Army who rescued here, 2that she saw her moment for revenge had come and she could 3take out a few of the hated Nazis? 4A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Anything is possible, Mr Irving. 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
I am trying to find some other reason why she should have 6deliberately lied in her depositions, sworn on oath in a 7capital case? You can suggest no alternative reason than 8that, that possibly her memory was wrong, she had a bad 9memory or she was imaginative? 10A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
There are many possibilities. It may be she was an 11habitual liar; maybe she was an habitual story-teller. 12Who knows? We cannot second guess the situation. The 13only evidence we have is right in front of us. 14Q.
[Mr Irving]
So of your five eyewitnesses, we have lost the Russians, 15we have lost the Pravda account, we have lost Bimko now? 16A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
But I never introduced Bimko, so I do not know how I can 17have lost Bimko. 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
Well, some bulk larger than others in your report. 19Mr Tauber you rely on quite heavily, do you not? 20A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Mr Irving, I rely on Tauber for the description of the 21operation of the crematorium and the gas chambers. I have 22never, never introduced Miss Bimko as a witness for this 23material. So I cannot see how I lost her because I did 24not introduce her as a witness. 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think the idea of "losing" somebody 26is a very helpful one, but it would help me if you

. P-66

1would ---- 2MR IRVING: Perhaps I should put a row of beans on the 3counter ---- 4MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, can you just let me complete my 5sentences sometimes? Would you for my benefit, Professor 6van Pelt, just tell me, really just enumerate, those 7witnesses, those eyewitnesses, who you say deserve some 8attention for what they have said in their accounts? 9A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
OK. Are we dealing only with crematorium (ii) or are we 10dealing with the ---- 11Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
With gassing, the extermination by gassing? 12A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Extermination by gas? 13Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Just the names so that Mr Irving knows who you do rely on. 14A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
An important one is Slova Dragon(?) who was one of the 15sonderkommandos. An important witness is Heinrich Tauber 16mentioned already before. An important witness is Pery 17Broad. An important witness is Hirst. Then we can take 18in also, both as a witness and his diary, Dr Kramer. 19These are either from the time itself or immediately after 20the war. Hans Almayer talks about gassings, but he is 21rather confused about many things so I would not want to 22rely too much one way or the other. 23MR IRVING: Explain to the court who Hans Almayer is, please? 24A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Hans Almayer was the Lager Fuhrer in Birkenhau in 1942 and 25early 43, but he left by the time these crematoria started 26to be in operation.

. P-67

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
By the time he was acting in effect as the deputy 2kommandant, is that right? 3A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. Let me just try to get back to my enumeration of 4witnesses. Then during the Lunenburg trial Kramer 5admitted to gassings but did not describe the procedure in 6detail. So at the moment I would leave it to basically 7build up a general picture, these witnesses I think 8produce a sufficient evidence to come to some kind of 9solid conclusion on that issue. 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you. That is extremely helpful. 11Mr Irving, do resume. 12MR IRVING: That is a relatively small number of eyewitnesses 13for a relatively large proposition, namely that the Nazis 14killed 500,000 people in that gas chamber with the 15collapsed roof. That is the only evidence that we have, 16apart from the sketches of Mr Olaire, and there is not a 17single document of any credible worth which explicitly 18bears out your case in all the hundreds of thousands of 19pages of paper found in the Auschwitz museum and in the 20Moscow archives. I am trying to summarize at this stage 21what the position is. 22A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
On which case? 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
On the case that that was a homicidal gas chamber. 24A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No. I think these are the principal -- these are people 25who basically give us the texture, who have describe the 26operation in some detail. One probably could have found

. P-68

1---- 2Q.
[Mr Irving]
If we can fault them in any significant way, if we can 3punch a hole in their testimony, if I can put it like 4that, then of course that rather collapses the entire 5value of the rest of their testimony. 6A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I do not think that is necessarily the case, but I am not 7a professional judge. I am an historian. Some of their 8testimony will be absolutely correct and there will be 9always some testimony where they are maybe confused. But 10I think that Faurisson's theory that, if you punch one 11hole in the testimony, all of testimony becomes irrelevant 12I think is an irresponsible way to work with the 13testimony. 14Q.
[Mr Irving]
Let Mr Faurisson fight his own battles. 15A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
But what you said was quite literally a quotation from Mr 16Faurisson. It is his thesis, his original thesis. 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. It may be his thesis, I am sure. It is such an 18obvious thesis that I appreciate that the Holocaust 19historians had maximum difficulty with it. If there are 20no holes in that roof now and we can satisfy the court 21that there were never any holes in that roof, then that 22demolishes the eyewitnesses and thereby demolishes the 23story of the homicidal gas chamber, because there is no 24other evidence. Even if I am wrong on that, as we say, in 25the alternative, I have justifiable reason for maintaining 26the position I did and it was not perverse to adopt the

. P-69

1position I did. 2A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I am not fighting this case so I cannot comment on that. 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
Can we proceed now to Mr Tauber? How big does Mr Tauber 4rank in your list of witnesses? Is he near the top in 5importance? 6A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
He is a very important witness. 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
So straight away Mr Tauber of course said that he saw the 8people pouring the cyanide in through the imaginary holes 9in the roof. He did not say imaginary but ---- 10A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Let us look at the text. 11Q.
[Mr Irving]
We read what he said. I think you will find it in your 12report Part 1 (iv) page 73 of your report. 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think your pagination is different from 14everyone else, Mr Irving. 15A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I have it right here. It is page 191. 16MR IRVING: Thank you very much. He says here right at the 17top: 18 " Through the window of the incineration room, I 19observed how the Zyklon was poured into the gas chamber. 20... They took the cans of Zyklon from the car and put 21them beside the small chimneys [the things that you 22described on the roof].... Then he closed the orifice with 23a concrete cover." 24 Was this the man who said he needed two hands to 25lift the concrete cover, that he saw the people using two 26hands to lift the concrete cover? This is Tauber, is it

. P-70

1not? 2A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I do not remember that he said it but, if you can point to 3the passage ---- 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
We went through the Tauber evidence in some detail 5yesterday. 6A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
We did not discuss the thing on top, people manipulating 7those covers. 8Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. If he talks of concrete covers with two handles, 9does this not rather contradict the story given by other 10eyewitnesses even of there being wooden lids on these 11openings, Holzblenden in German? They have not got their 12story straight, these eyewitnesses. They know a bit about 13the holes in the roof but they do not know quite what the 14covers were. They must assume that there were covers 15because otherwise the rain would get in. So one says 16concrete and another one says wood. 17A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
If you want to introduce that, I would be happy to comment 18on that. I do not even know which eyewitness you are 19talking about right now. 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
Tauber. 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, the ones who say they were wooden, not 22concrete. That is what you mean, is it not? 23MR IRVING: My Lord, we will probably stumble across them in 24the course of time. 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is not a very good way of 26cross-examining, if I may say so. Are you able to refer

. P-71

1to them now? 2MR IRVING: Not at this instant in time, my Lord. 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: All right. 4MR IRVING: If I was surrounded by research assistants, no 5doubt I would be bombarded with copies of that very 6document. Does Tauber not say --, I refer you now to 7Pressac page 483. Do you have a copy of Pressac? 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not. 9 MR RAMPTON: Your Lordship has the tab of Pressac at the back 10of H 2(vi). 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not have H 2(vi). 12 MR RAMPTON: Then somebody will get it for your Lordship. 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sorry, I do not have the supporting 14documents in court. 15 MR RAMPTON: I will find your Lordship the tab. It is tab 5. 16It folds out because Pressac is an oblong book. What has 17been copied here is just the Tauber chapter, I think. 18MR IRVING: Would you agree, reading this very detailed 19account, Professor, that it is likely that, when Tauber 20made this deposition to Jan Sehn, I believe it was made, 21they had in front of them the architectural blueprints to 22jog his memory? 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: We had this yesterday, that point. 24MR IRVING: Very well. I am just drawing attention to how 25detailed it was. Yet he says that on either side of these 26pillars, the central support pillars, there were four

. P-72

1others, two on each side. Now He is relying on his memory 2---- 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: Where are you now? 4A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
We are now back in the gas chamber? Where are we at page 5483? OK. We are at the top of 484, the first column to 6the left. 7MR IRVING: Thank you very much. 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have not got the pagination so there is no 9way I am going to find this. 10MR IRVING: It is over the page, the page beginning with the 11words "middle of its length". 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: I just do not have page numbers, that is the 13problem. They have all been cut off. 14MR IRVING: I will read it out. It says, "On other side of 15these pillars there were four others, C1 to C4, two on 16each side". Mr Pressac, who is quite an expert on this, 17says that Mr Tauber is mistaken, this arrangement is found 18only in the gas chamber of crematorium (iii). He is 19confusing things, is he not? 20A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Mr Pressac? 21Q.
[Mr Irving]
No. Mr Tauber is confusing things. 22A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I know that Mr Pressac thinks that. I do not agree with 23Mr Pressac. There is no evidence at all that Pressac is 24right on this issue. 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
That Pressac is sometimes wrong, in other words? 26A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Oh, yes. Pressac is sometimes wrong. I have had my

. P-73

1quarrels with Pressac in the past. 2Q.
[Mr Irving]
He says, and I am quoting again, "The gas chamber had no 3water supply of its own". 4A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Where are we now? 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
I only have extracts, unfortunately. Further down that 6same column, Pressac says that three taps were in fact 7installed in the room, according to the drawing? 8A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I am just trying to find this thing. 9Q.
[Mr Irving]
According to the inventory. 10A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I see the gas chambers, no water supply and so on, it is 11around two inches from the bottom, and the first column, 12the same column where the pillars were described. 13MR IRVING: Yes. 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not following why that is a criticism of 15Tauber at the moment. 16MR IRVING: Well, he has made another error. 17A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
There is a little note. It is followed by a little note 18which says ---- 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
Saying they were later taken out? 20A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes, so we do not know which day or date Tauber was 21referring to. 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. You yourself have confirmed that at the end of 1943, 23I believe, the gas chamber was divided into two by a brick 24wall? 25A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
So the small transports could be handled. Mr Tauber

. P-74

1confirmed this. He is the source of that information, is 2he not? 3A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No. There is also a Greek. Actually, in my report I 4mention a Greek Jew who was transported from Seloniki, who 5actually mentions also, he was quite specific in his 6description of that division of the gas chamber. 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
Another eyewitness? 8A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes, another eyewitness. 9Q.
[Mr Irving]
Is there any trace of that division in the ruins? 10A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
You cannot see that. That is the problem because the roof 11has collapsed on the floor of the gas chamber. 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. It would not make much sense, would it, to all the 13bodies that far because this small transports were gassed 14in the chamber furthest from the entrance, so the bodies 15would have been pulled the whole way down. Would that not 16have made gassing of large numbers like 2,000 at a time 17very difficult? 18A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
If you have the small chamber at the back, you would gas 19fewer people and, in fact, as we have seen in the Olaire 20drawing, it actually provides an opportunity for the 21so-called dentists among the sonderkommando and the people 22who cut the hair to actually do their work downstairs and 23not in the incineration room, as was usually the custom. 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
He also describes, does he not, the crematorium chimneys 25smoking? 26A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I presume that is crematorium chimney smoke, indeed, yes.

. P-75

1I would like to see it but I assume on your authority that 2the crematorium chimneys do smoke, yes. 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
From your memory, presumably you have read Mr Tauber's 4testimony in detail, is it right that he describes it as 5being possible to cremate five or eight bodies 6simultaneously in one furnace? 7A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I think that we can probably go to the passage itself. 8Q.
[Mr Irving]
Well, he does say that, does he not? 9A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Let us go to the passage, because he is very particular in 10his description. 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is this in your report at page 194? 12A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
194 yes. 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: I cannot see the bit at the moment. 14A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
194. We go to 192 and 193. I can read the whole passage, 15or Mr Irving can read the passage, starting: "The 16procedure was to put the first corpse with the feet 17towards the muffle, back down and face up". Then he gives 18a very detailed description of that procedure. 19MR IRVING: So he is the source of the information that five to 20eight bodies were cremated simultaneously or quickly? 21A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No. I think that Mr Hirst also talks about that, that 22more bodies are inserted in the muffles at one time. 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
Does Mr Tauber also describe the bodies of those gassed as 24being red with green spots? 25A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I do remember that he gives a quite a longish description 26of the ----

. P-76

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
If you remember it, there is no need to look it up. 2A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I do not any more remember if it is Tauber or any other 3sonderkommandos. 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
Do you know what a body that has been gassed with hydrogen 5cyanide looks like, what colour it turns? 6A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I understand it starts to look slightly reddish. 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
Like a radish? Red with green spots? 8A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No, reddish. 9Q.
[Mr Irving]
With green spots. Would you think that that is possibly 10the victim of some epidemic? 11A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I am not an epidemiologist. I do not know how people who 12have died from typhus or other epidemics look like. 13Q.
[Mr Irving]
Cyanide victims do not go red with green spots, not if 14they have just been gassed. If they have been left lying 15around for a few days, perhaps they might. 16A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I have no comment on that. I cannot possibly comment on 17that. 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
Does he describe a prisoner being dowsed with naphtha 19which is a flammable substance? 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: This is Tauber still? 21MR IRVING: This is Tauber, yes, and then being burned alive in 22a crematorium muffle, and then they let him out and he ran 23around screaming? 24A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
He has a particular incident. Again, I do not know where 25it is. 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is it in your report?

. P-77

1A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
It is in my report, yes. 2MR IRVING: Does he describe another prisoner being chased into 3a pool of boiling human fat, which sounds like an almost 4Talmudic kind of quotation. 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not quite sure, Mr Irving, perhaps you 6can explain to me. You are putting various things which 7you say Mr Tauber described. 8MR IRVING: Well, my Lord, the inference is ---- 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: With what object? Are you suggesting all of 10this is invention? 11MR IRVING: I am not suggesting they are all invention, but 12they test a reasonable historian's credulity, and one 13should therefore be inclined to subject this particular 14testimony to closer than normal scrutiny, if I can put it 15like that. 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us ask Professor van Pelt what he makes 17of that suggestion. 18MR IRVING: I have two more of these episodes to put to him. 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: Put two more and then answer the general 20question, would you? 21MR IRVING: The prisoner was chased into a pool of boiling 22human fat -- does he describe that? 23A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Mr Irving, if you give me the passage, I will---- 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
He is your principal eyewitness, or one of your principal 25eye witnesses. 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: He wants the reference, Mr Irving, which is

. P-78

1not unreasonable. I am trying to find it and I must say I 2cannot. 3MR IRVING: Certainly if I had read the Tauber report, I would 4be able to say yes or no to that. 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am looking in Professor van Pelt's report. 6A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Mr Irving, we are in a court of law here and whatever 7I say does matter. It means that I need to respond to the 8exact quotation of what Tauber says, and then I am 9prepared to say yes or nay. 10MR IRVING: Very well. We will look up the exact quotation in 11time for lunch. Let us proceed then to the final one. Do 12you agree that Mr Tauber also attests to the figure of 4 13million killed in Auschwitz? 14 MR RAMPTON: We thought we had found the passage in question. 15It is page 190 of the report. 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you very much. 17MR IRVING: Yes. This is the problem with writing with word 18processors. Things tend to go through the finger tips 19rather than through the memory and brain. In other words, 20he does have this rather lurid description of the man ---- 21A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Mr Irving, I do not deny that I put this in, and I do 22remember the incident, but I do not want to comment on a 23very general description you give of the incident when 24I do not have the text in front of me. 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
Can I read it to you? It is on page 190 of your own 26report. "When the shifts were changing over, they had

. P-79

1found a gold watch and wedding ring on one of the 2labourers, a man Wolbrom called Lejb. This Jew, aged 3about twenty, was dark and had a number of one hundred 4thousand and something. All the Sonderkommando working in 5the crematorium were assembled, and before their eyes he 6was hung, with his hands tied behind his back, from an 7iron bar above the firing hearths. He remained in this 8position for about an hour, then after untying his hands 9and feet, they threw him in a cold crematorium furnace. 10Gasoline was poured into the lower ash bin... And lit. 11The flames reached the muffle where this Lejb was 12imprisoned. A few minutes later, they opened the door and 13the condemned man emerged and ran off, covered in burns. 14... This fat was poured over the corpses to accelerate 15their combustion. This poor devil was pulled out of the 16fat still alive and then shot." 17 Does that sound to like a completely neutral and 18plausible account of an atrocity? 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: Leave aside "neutral". That is an unhelpful 20word. Do you think it is plausible? 21A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. 22MR IRVING: Very well. The figure of 4 million to which Tauber 23attested, do you call that also plausible at the time he 24testified? 25A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
The figure of 4 million? Not, because nowadays we have 26very detailed information on what actually the figure is

. P-80

1and it is more likely to have been around a million. 2Q.
[Mr Irving]
So would you agree that this is an example of what I call 3cross pollination? He hits on the figure of 4 million 4because that was the current figure at that time? 5A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I do think that we should look at how the figure of 4 6million originally arose. 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: So do I. Where do we find that, Mr Irving? 8If we do not find it in the report perhaps you could just 9quote in its context where one gets that estimate. 10MR IRVING: My Lord, with respect, if the witness agrees that 11Tauber attested to 4 million, we are only concerned with 12the figure. 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: He has made the point, which I think is a 14fair one, that he wants to see in what context and on what 15basis that 4 million figure was arrived at by Tauber. 16That is a reasonable thing for him to want to do, and I am 17simply asking you to identify where one finds it. 18MR IRVING: My Lord, I will have to adjourn that piece of 19information, the page number, until after lunch. If it is 20substantial, we can come back to it and retake it. 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can anyone on the Defendants side find that 22page? 23 MR RAMPTON: I am sorry? 24A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I can point to the page. It is page 178. 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: Of your report? 26A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
178 of my report, which goes back to Pressac 501. What he

. P-81

1says is that he came to this figure on the basis of 2conversations he had with various prisoners. Yes? If you 3allow me, I can probably quote the whole thing. I give 4the full quotation now from Pressac on page 501: 5 "I imagine that during the period in which 6I worked in the crematorium as a member of the 7sondercommando a total of about 2 million people were 8gassed. During my time in Auschwitz I was able to talk to 9various prisoners who had worked in the crematorium and 10the bunkers before my arrival. They told me that I was 11not among the first to do this work and that before I came 12another 2 million had already been gassed in bunkers 1 and 132 and crematorium (i). Adding up the total number of 14people gassed in Auschwitz amounted to about 4 million". 15That is what he says. 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: Half of it comes from other people? 17A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Half of it comes from other people. 18MR IRVING: This information is being taken by Judge Jan Sehn 19in whom you repose great trust? 20A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. I think that Sehn did a marvellous investigation. 21Q.
[Mr Irving]
Can you tell us something about these depositions were 22taken in communist countries? Would the man sit down with 23a pencil and paper and retire to a room and write it all 24out himself, or would it be summarized by the lawyers and 25he would be asked to sign it. 26A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I do not know what happened. I already told you

. P-82

1yesterday. I do not know what happened in that room where 2Jan Sehn was interviewing Mr Tauber. I know there were 3witnesses there because the original report mentions other 4people being present. That is all I know. 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
If I can just leap sideways to the name of Rudolf Hirst, 6the kommandant of Auschwitz, is it right that he was 7interrogated several times at Nuremberg? 8A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes, that is right. 9Q.
[Mr Irving]
And that, as a result of these interrogations, a 10deposition was taken or put before him for signature? 11A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes, that is right. 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
And you have now read these interrogations, I believe? 13A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I have read a copy of the interrogations, yes. 14Q.
[Mr Irving]
The verbatim interrogation transcripts? 15A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. I do not think I have read every one of them but, I 16have read them in general. 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
Have you managed to form an impression there of how the 18Americans obtained depositions from their witnesses? 19A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Maybe you can lead me on that, because I do not exactly 20know where ---- 21Q.
[Mr Irving]
Would I be right in saying that, on the basis of the 22interrogations, the Americans would draw up a deposition, 23confront the witness with it, and say, "Sign here"? 24A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I cannot conclude that on the basis of the interrogations 25I read. 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
Very well.

. P-83

1A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Certainly not. 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, have you left Tauber now. 3MR IRVING: I believe we have just one more point on Tauber and 4that is to look at page 481 of Pressac, where we do have 5four photographs of Pressac posing in various costumes, 6post war photographs taken by the Polish authorities who 7obviously regarded him as a star witness. 8A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
This is Heinrich Tauber? 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: You said Pressac. 10MR IRVING: My mistake. There are four photographs of him 11posing in the camp costume. 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: What is the significance of that? 13MR IRVING: That he was a star witness, my Lord, of the Polish 14prosecution authorities, he was being subjected to what we 15call now photo ops, and they were relying on him very 16heavily, and that no doubt there was a certain amount of 17privilege being granted to him by the Polish authorities 18in the way that he was cooperating with them. 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: So he was making it up to express his 20gratitude to the Polish authorities? 21MR IRVING: It is not an unknown phenomenon for witnesses to 22make things up. Your Lordship will probably recall that, 23at the end of World War II, the whole of Europe was in a 24very, very sorry state. You did not have food supplies, 25there were no consumer goods and this was something with 26which the people who were in authority, whether they be

. P-84

1Poles or Russians or Americans or British, were able to 2barter. 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: May I put the general question to Professor 4van Pelt which I invited you to ask a little while ago? 5That is this. Are there aspects of Tauber's testimony or 6account which cause you to doubt his plausibility? 7A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I think that Tauber is an absolutely amazingly good 8witness. I find his powers of observations very precise 9in general. I do not have any general reason to doubt his 10credibility as a witness. 11MR IRVING: May I ask a question on that, my Lord? 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: Of course, yes. I was only asking the 13question that seemed to me to be need to be asked. 14MR IRVING: Would your impression be, or would it not, that, at 15the time he was being questioned by the Polish authorities 16for the purpose of providing this deposition, he was being 17confronted or furnished with drawings, documents and so on 18to help jog his memory. His apparent precision may have 19come from this kind of prompting by the Polish 20authorities. 21A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
This is possible indeed but let us now just go back for a 22moment. Let us assume this happened, Tauber would have 23been confronted with blueprints which, sadly to say, for 2440 years after the these blueprints came in the public 25realm, most people were unable to interpret. These are 26very technical documents. These documents are not easy to

. P-85

1interpret. It is not so that, if the blueprints had been 2there, and a man who is not an architect or even, for that 3matter an historian who teaches in an architecture school, 4when they are confronted with that, it is not that they 5immediately are able to make up a story which matches 6point for point information in the blueprint of a very 7technical and specialist nature. 8Q.
[Mr Irving]
But they would know, for example, the difference of left 9from right, would they not? If for example they described 10a staircase being on one side of the building, or the 11rutsche, the slide, being on one side of the building when 12the drawing showed it on the other or vice verse, if they 13showed it on the side that the drawing showed it when in 14fact it was not built that way? 15A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
One of the things we have to remember is that Tauber gives 16a description of crematorium (ii). It is a general 17description. However, sonderkommandos of crematorium (ii) 18and (iii) had access to both buildings. Sonderkommandos 19have testified to the fact that they lived in these 20buildings but they shared facilities. So they would be 21allowed to actually cross that little path and go over to 22the other crematorium and back. So we have two buildings 23which are mirror images of each other, which left and 24right are completely turned upside-down, which both are 25used by the same people, but otherwise are identical. So 26if at a certain movement he gets left or right wrong.

. P-86

1I would not at that moment give such incredible 2evidentiary value to that, that he is making it up, or 3that he is totally confused. It is simply that these 4buildings were identical except for the left and the right 5of everything. 6Q.
[Mr Irving]
In your original book you made one claim about the 7position of the rutsche in a building which you then 8reversed in your report. Is that correct? 9A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No, I do not think so. 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
You stated that it was on one side of the building on the 11drawings, and that in fact it was somewhere else. 12A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I am happy to consider this and to discuss it with you, 13but again show me the passage in the book and show me the 14passage in the report. I will deal with it then. 15Q.
[Mr Irving]
This has all taken rather longer than I had hoped. I am 16sure his Lordship is getting impatient and we should move 17on. Can we move on now to the witness Pery Broad? 18Summing up on Tauber, one point, can I get you to make the 19following statement? Tauber described the cyanide being 20poured into the gas chamber of crematorium No. (ii) 21through holes in the roof. That is correct? 22A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes, that is correct. 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
If (and this is a hypothetical; it is one of Mr Rampton's 24if's) it should turn out there were never any such holes 25in the roof, then Tauber has lied, has he not? 26A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Then he would have lied, yes.

. P-87

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
Thank you. We now move on to Mr Pery Broad. P-E-R-Y 2Broad. This is, of course, a more general eyewitness 3because he is also of relevance to Auschwitz rather than 4Birkenhau, am I right? 5A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Most of his testimony on at least gassings relates to 6Sturmlager. And he only observed from a distance what was 7happening in Birkenhau. 8Q.
[Mr Irving]
Very briefly we are going to deal with Mr Broad. Pery 9Broad was employed by the British as an interrogator in a 10British camp; is that correct? 11A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I would wonder if you can be more precise about what 12"employs" means in this case before I can say yes or no. 13Q.
[Mr Irving]
Would it be reasonable -- your Lordship wished to say 14something, no -- to say that, in view of his special 15position within this prison camp, he was given special 16favours by the British, whether they be in the form of 17payment or accommodation or clothing or food or money? 18A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
He was an inmate who was used in the inmate administration 19of the camp. 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
Can you tell me what happened at the end to Pery Broad 21back in the 1960s? 22A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Pery Broad was tried in Frankfurt and he ---- 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
As a war criminal? 24A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
As a war criminal. 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
Eventually, he was put on trial by the Germans, is that 26correct?

. P-88

1A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
He was put on trial by the Germans. I think he was 2convicted to two years or two-and-a-half years in prison. 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
Am I right in saying that he was convicted for the war 4crime of having participated in shootings at block 11 in 5Auschwitz? 6A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I do not know exactly what the judgment, what were the 7reasons for his conviction, what crime he was convicted 8for and what crime he was not. 9Q.
[Mr Irving]
In other words, your eyewitness was a murderer who was 10going at some time to be prosecuted for war crimes by the 11Allies, quite rightly, and he had bought a certain amount 12of breathing space -- is this not a reasonable presumption 13-- by testifying in various cases that the British were 14bringing in Northern Germany? 15A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Let us go back to the situation in a British internment or 16in a prison of war camp in, I think it was, Meklenberg, 17Northern Germany, very far away from Auschwitz in May 181945. If Mr Broad had not come forward to say he had been 19in Auschwitz, I think nobody would ever have found out 20because many SS men at that time were, basically, sitting 21in allied prison of war camps and were sitting there until 22they were released. So, certainly, Mr Broad, if he had 23not volunteered the information about Auschwitz, I think 24would have had anything to fear at that time because there 25were in that camp no surviving inmates from Auschwitz who 26could have identified him.

. P-89

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
Well, the British had ways of identifying people. We had 2lists of names, we had the code breaking intercepts and so 3on. We knew who was who. 4A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Mr Broad was, as far as we know, a Rottenfuhrer. I do not 5think his name was very high on the list of people the 6British were looking for. 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
The fact remains that he had a guilty conscious because he 8had participated in shootings in Auschwitz concentration 9camp, and eventually he was put on trial, not by the 10British, but by the Germans. The British treated him in 11some special way, is this correct? 12A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
He was, he became an interpreter in the camp and then at a 13certain moment when he gave his evidence it was recognized 14that he was a very important witness. 15Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. He is one of your eyewitnesses for the existence of 16the pipes on the roofs, admittedly at a distance, but he 17described, if I remember his testimony in the Tesh case 18correctly, these pipes on the roof being opened and people 19pouring stuff in. He described six of them rather than 20four, is that correct? 21A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Again I think we should look at the material that is in my 22report, but I think at least I can say right now that what 23I remember that in the Tesh case he refers to a gassing 24happened in crematorium (i), that the particular incident 25you refer to. But again I think we should, before we have 26a final conclusion on that, look at the actual evidence

. P-90

1given in the Tesh case because I thought it was 2crematorium No. (i) he was talking about. 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
Is it known to you that Pery Broad was a Brazilian 4national? 5A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes, I know that. 6Q.
[Mr Irving]
In other words, he was not a German national, he was a 7Brazilian national. Was Brazil fighting on the side of 8the Allies in World War II? 9A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I think that ultimately Brazil joined, yes. 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
And yet he was wearing the uniform of the SS, of an enemy 11power and he was committing these crimes in the uniform of 12an enemy power? 13A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I would like to remind the judge that many people in the 14SS were actually Vorstattue who had passports from 15different countries, from countries other than Germany. 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: The significance of the fact he was Brazilian 17is escaping me at the moment, but... 18MR IRVING: I was about to say, would not the fact that he was 19a member of an allied nation fighting in German uniform 20have put him in precisely the same category as William 21Joyce or John Amery, and have exposed him to being put on 22trial in Brazil for treason? Was this not another threat 23that was hanging over his head at the time he was in 24captivity? 25A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I cannot possibly comment on that. 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
But you do agree that he was technically committing

. P-91

1treason by fighting in the uniform of an enemy power? 2A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I think that Mr Broad in May 1945 probably had other 3things on his mind than that particular issue of if Brazil 4was going to ask for his extradition. 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
Do you use the statement of a witness called Hans Stark as 6proof of the gassings? 7A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I have the statement in my report, yes. 8Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. In section 9, the Leuchter report of your report -- 9I am afraid again I do not know the page number -- you 10quoted from it and I will quote the passage that you have 11used, in your language: "As early as autumn 1941, 12gassings were carried out in a room in the small 13crematorium which had been prepared for this purpose. The 14room held 200 to 250 people"? 15 MR RAMPTON: 514, my Lord. 16MR IRVING: Thank you very much. I am indebted. I will begin 17again. 18A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
We are talking about Stark now, the Stark testimony? 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
The testimony of the eyewitness Hans Stark: "As early as 20autumn 1941" -- this goes more to the question of your 21treatment of sources rather than crematorium No. (ii). 22"As early as autumn 1941 gassings were carried out in a 23room in the small crematorium which had been prepared for 24this purpose. The room held 200 to 250 people, had a 25higher than average ceiling, no windows only a specially 26insulated door with bolts like those of an airtight

. P-92

1door." Is that your translation of that document? 2A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes, this is my translation -- no, this is actually an 3existing translation. If we go to the quote, we see it 4was done by Deborah Burnstone. 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
Deborah? 6A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Burnstone. 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
Does it also give the original German of the text? 8A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No, it is not. 9Q.
[Mr Irving]
Did you take any trouble to ascertain the original German 10of that text? 11A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No, I did not. 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
If I tell that you the word "airtight", the word 13translated as "airtight door", in the original German is 14Luftschutzer, is that how you would have translated it? 15A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
An airtight door as a Luftschutzer door? 16Q.
[Mr Irving]
In the original German of Hans Stark it is "Luftschutzer" 17which has been translated ---- 18A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
If you show me the passage, Mr Irving, I am happy to 19confirm or not that, indeed, that is the way ---- 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
I am putting one word to you. The original German says 21not "airtight door" in English, but "Luftschutzer" in 22German. Would you tell the court what "Luftschutzer" 23translates into in English? 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: "Airtight door", I would have thought? 25A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
"Luftschutz" in general, "luft" means "air raid". 26Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Air protection.

. P-93

1A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Luftschutz ---- 2Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
"Luftschutz", yes, I see. 3MR IRVING: Is an air raid and air raid [German], my Lord? 4Now, either inadvertently or deliberately, somebody and 5you say it is Burnstone has mistranslated that word from a 6totally harmless and, in fact, significant "air raid door" 7into the rather more sinister "airtight door"? 8A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
In the context of quite a sinister description, I would 9say. 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, look at the context. 11MR IRVING: I beg your pardon? 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: Look at the context. As I understand it, she 13actually said "like those of an airtight door", but this 14is in the context of gassings in 1941 and Zyklon-B being 15poured through holes in the roof. 16MR IRVING: My Lord, there are any number of eyewitness 17statements like that which are in the report. I am just 18looking here at the quality of the translation which is 19frequently tilted against or tilted in favour of the 20Holocaust definition. Your Lordship will remember that 21I have been trying to establish the case that these 22sinister door scattered around the camps at Auschwitz and 23Birkenhau were, in fact, provisions for the coming air 24raids and the Germans anticipated there were going to be 25gas attacks as well, as, indeed, did we, British, with our 26air raid shelters.

. P-94

1MR JUSTICE GRAY: I understand the suggestion, but what you 2cannot possibly say, Mr Irving, is that Hans Stark is 3describing an air raid shelter on the basis of this 4passage, can you? 5MR IRVING: I am concentrating here only on the door, my Lord. 6I have no other means of attacking the integrity of Hans 7Stark as a witness. I am looking here at the rather 8slipshod use of the word "airtight door" when the original 9is quite clearly referred to as looking just like an air 10raid shelter door of which we will be producing 11photographs to the court later on. 12 This is of significance because the Defence rely 13on a number of photographs of doors found scattered around 14the compound of Auschwitz and Birkenhau, and we will show 15that these are standard German air raid shelter doors 16complete with peep holes. 17 I think this is the time I would ask your 18Lordship to look at the little bundle of five pages of 19documents I produced this morning. 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, certainly. 21MR IRVING: I have not yet handed it to your Lordship. It is 22here. 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: Where are we going to put this? Shall we put 24it in ---- 25MR IRVING: J, I think, my Lord. 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- J?

. P-95

1MR IRVING: I have started a new numbering system which will go 2all the way through with consistent consecutive numbers 3from now on. 4MR JUSTICE GRAY: I gathered that was being done. That is very 5helpful. We got as far, I think, as about 14 maybe. 6MR IRVING: We started with 00, unfortunately. 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am only up to 11, so something has gone 8wrong. 9MR IRVING: The 0 now comes after the 11. The one I have given 10you should come after 11, my Lord. 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am going to put it for the time being -- 12actually it is 12. Yes? 13MR IRVING (To the witness): These are three or four Germans 14documents. They are significant because they refer to 15trips made from Auschwitz to Dessau to pick up Zyklon-B, 16truck loads of Zyklon-B. Are you familiar with this kind 17of signal or radio message? 18A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Well, I am not familiar with this particular one. 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
Not with this particular one? 20A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I have seen -- I absolutely do not doubt, I do not doubt 21the -- you know, the integrity of the thing. 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
If you will look at page 1 rather than the first one, page 230, if you look at page 1 as numbered at the bottom, you 24will see the signal at the bottom looks rather sinister, 25does it not? I have translated it on page 2. It is a 26message from Berlin to the Kommandant of Auschwitz,

. P-96

1effectively, giving driving permission. Every time they 2made a journey by truck because of the shortage of fuel, 3they had to have permission from Berlin. "Permission 4herewith given for one five tonne truck with trailer to 5Dessau and back for the purpose of fetching materials for 6the Jew resettlement. This permit is to be handed to the 7driver to take with him". It is signed Levehenshal who is 8at Berlin still at that time. What interpretation would 9you put on that message, October 2nd, 1942? 10A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
That a truck, a five tonne truck, is sent to Dessau to 11collect material for the Jews' settlement. Dessau, as we 12know from other telegrams and as we know also from the 13rest of the record, was the location where the Zyklon-B 14was being produced in one of the factories. So, the 15context of what we know also of the other messages shows 16that this is most likely a permission to collect in a five 17tonne truck Zyklon-B from the original manufacturer. 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
In fact, more than five tonnes because they are taking a 19trailer as well, are they not? 20A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
With a trailer, yes. 21Q.
[Mr Irving]
So they are collecting over five tonnes -- it would be a 22reasonable assumption, based on this document, that they 23are collecting over five tonnes of some material which is 24probably Zyklon-B cyanide pellets? 25A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. I mean, I do not know exactly the weight, but 26I think that in the document I have written (of which you

. P-97

1have a copy) on your suggestion more or less that I have 2dealt with this matter about how much the truck would 3have, most likely would have carried. 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
It is specified clearly in this report, in this telegram, 5that it is for the Jew resettlement, for the 6Judenumsiedlung? 7A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
For the Judenumsiedlung, yes. 8Q.
[Mr Irving]
That makes it even more sinister, does it not? 9A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Given the fact what the word "Judenumsiedlung" had come to 10mean in 1942, yes, this would be quite a sinister 11document. 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
Will you now turn over the page to page 3 which you can 13take it is a translation of the upper telegram on page 1? 14A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I am sorry? 15Q.
[Mr Irving]
Page 3 at the foot of -- you have no page 3? 16A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I have page 3, but I look at No. 1. 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 18A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
At No. 1, the upper telegram. 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
It is a translation of the upper telegram No. 1? 20A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes, OK. 21Q.
[Mr Irving]
This is from Gluks(?). Who is Gluks? 22A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Gluks is the Chief of the Inspectorate for concentration 23camps. 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
He has the rank of something like a Brigadier General, 25does he not? 26A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes.

. P-98

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
This again is a driving permit sent to Auschwitz 2concentration camp. 3A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
Answering a request: "Permission herewith given for one 5automobile", a car, "to go from Auschwitz to 6Lischmannstadt and back on September 16th 1942 for the 7purpose of inspecting the experimental station for field 8kitchens for Operation Reinhard. This permit is to be 9handed to the driver to take with him"? 10A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I think your translation is wrong there, Mr Irving. 11Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. Tell ---- 12A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
The "Dei Feldofen" in this case are "field ovens", and we 13know there is quite a documentation, not only eyewitness 14testimony, but quite an extensive documentation on this 15particular trip which was made by Kommandant Hirst and 16which also Mr Dejaco and Mr Hoessler, all were included 17and they were inspecting actually, they were going to 18Lischmannstadt to see the extermination site there, to 19actually look at the incineration grid, the incineration 20installation created by Studattenfuhrer Bloebel as part of 21Action 1005, to create a way to get rid of corpses which 22had been buried as a result of the killings in Chelmo. So 23this has nothing to do with kitchens, these Feldofen, 24but with incineration ovens to burn, to incinerate, 25corpse. 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
"Field kitchens" would be "Feldkuchens", would it not?

. P-99

1A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
That is more likely, yes. 2Q.
[Mr Irving]
So your submission is that this is a reference to going 3there to visit some kind of improvised grating, fire 4grating, of some kind ---- 5A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. 6Q.
[Mr Irving]
--- on a large scale? 7A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
They are actually -- we have Mr Dejaco, the chief of 8design in the Zentrale Bau, he actually made a sketch also 9of this incineration installation. It had been developed 10by Bloebel who was an architect in order to empty the mass 11graves which had been created in Chelmo as a result of the 12gassings there. 13Q.
[Mr Irving]
Bloebel had the very distasteful task of emptying out the 14mass graves and cremating the ---- 15A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes, he had the -- it was called Action 1005. He was 16going around sites where mass graves had been reacted in 17order to take out the corpses and to incinerate them so 18they were going to be no traces. 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
Why would it include the words an "experimental station" 20for the ---- 21A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Because they were just developing the technology to do 22this. 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
Does it take much technology to make a fire in the open on 24a grating? 25A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
The Germans had not done this before yet. Bloebel was the 26person who developed the technology. Until then, the

. P-100

1Germans had not yet emptied mass graves and incinerated 2corpses of people who had been buried for some time. We 3know that afterwards this, indeed, is going to happen in 4Auschwitz within weeks, the same procedure start to be 5applied in Auschwitz to all the people who are buried in 6the field of ashes next to bunkers 1 and -- bunker 2 in 7this case. 8Q.
[Mr Irving]
When I see the word "Versthutzstation", in my knowledge of 9German documents, I usually think of a place like 10Panamunda or Passodena. I do not think of somebody 11mucking around with fire grates in a field? 12A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I do not follow you, Mr Irving. 13Q.
[Mr Irving]
The word "Versthutzstation" does not tend to convey what 14you suggest in your evidence. That is all that we can 15usefully derive from that. 16A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I think that maybe even if I have these documents on the 17trip to Chelmo. It is very well documented. Apart from 18that, Dejaco was questioned on that in detail during his 19trial, and he confirmed what you probably would call the 20very sinister interpretation of all these documents, that, 21indeed, yes, he was there present with Bloebel at the 22incineration site. 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
And yet he was, of course, acquitted, as we have heard 24yesterday. 25A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
He was acquitted of the murder of one inmate who he was 26alleged to have drowned at a building site near

. P-101

1crematorium (ii). 2Q.
[Mr Irving]
And not charged with any further crimes after that, not 3recharged on any other crime? 4A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No, he was not, but then we have discussed already the 5nature of ---- 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, may I just ask you, whilst it 7occurs to me, who translated "ofen" as "kitchens"? 8MR IRVING: I did, my Lord. Normally, "field kitchens" is the 9only interpretation of [German - document not provided]. 10I am willing to be lectured by Mr Van Pelt on this 11alternative meaning. He claims he has these documents 12which bear out his meaning, translation, of the word, and, 13of course, I put the original German to him so that he can 14correct it if we are wrong. 15 If I can just finally carry on on that point, if 16Dejaco was present on this trip and no consequences flowed 17from it in the law courts afterwards, can we draw any 18conclusions as to the nature of these pits that were being 19excavated or not, these mass graves, what the victims had 20died of or had been killed by? I am in your hands here 21because I know nothing. You have seen the documents and I 22do not. 23A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
OK. I have one of the documents right here in my hand, 24so, I mean, I could give it to you, I could quote it, 25I could read, because we have the report of the trip of 2617th September.

. P-102

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
Very well. 2A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I do not want to spring this document on you, but since 3you raised the issue of the significance of it, it gives 4actually a description of the thing. 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
While you are looking, I can tell my Lord the translation 6was actually done at 2 o'clock this morning, so there is 7an element of stress. 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. Thank you. 9A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I think I have not answered the question yet, so maybe 10could the question be repeated because I ---- 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: Shall I repeat it? Can we draw any 12conclusion as to the nature of these pits that were being 13excavated or not, these mass graves, what the victims had 14died of or been killed by? In other words, could you tell 15whether they had been gassed or whether they had been shot 16or whatever? 17A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
These people had gassed in gas vans. 18Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Why do you say that? 19A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
We know that on the basis of the report created by the 20Polish Commission of investigation in 1945, which itself 21did a forensic excavation at the site and also took many 22testimonies on this. These people who were brought to 23Chelmo were Jews from the Lischmannstadt ghetto. They 24started in very late 1941 when Germany was being emptied 25of Jews. I just want to remind the court, for example, 26Berlin was officially Judenreiden in early 1943. When the

. P-103

1German Jews were transported to the East, one of the 2places where they were concentrated was in the Rusch or 3Lischmannstadt ghetto. In order to make place for these 4people who came in, because it was already terribly 5overcrowded, Polish Jews from the Lischmannstadt ghetto 6were in early '42 brought to a little castle near Chelmo. 7This castle in Chelmo was a place where they were brought 8to this castle and then there were gas vans in that 9compound and they were actually walked into gas vans. 10There was a description of the actual camouflage way in 11which they were brought in there, and then these gas vans 12drove from that castle to a forest which was a couple of 13miles away. By the time the gas vans arrived at the 14forest, all of the people in the back of these gas vans 15had died and then they were buried in that forest. So 16when the mass graves really had become very large there, 17because ultimately the Polish Commission established that 18around, I think, 180,000 people were killed in that way at 19Chelmno, Bloebel was given the task to start removing the 20corpses. 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: That does not appear to me to have much to do 22with the message, the radio message, of 15th September 231942. 24MR IRVING: We are rather branching out into other fields 25there? 26A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
It has a lot to do with that.

. P-104

1MR JUSTICE GRAY: This is Auschwitz, not Chelmno? 2A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No, but the people in Auschwitz at that time, what has 3happened is that at bunker 2 at that moment, which had 4been in operation since early July, they have been burying 5the people next to bunker No. 2. In the meantime, there 6is the Himmler visit to Auschwitz and, while there is no 7record of it, it is quite likely probably that he said 8this burying of people very close to the camp, because 9that is actually quite close to Birkenhau, is going to be 10an unhealthy business. So what happens then that 11immediately -- we are talking again at about the month of 12August and September when all these big changes are taking 13place in Auschwitz. So, in order to take counsel from the 14only man who is actually doing the incineration of buried 15corpses which is happening in Chelmno with this 16Studattenfuhrer Bloebel, the Auschwitz Kommandant, and 17this is a very high powered trip, the Kommandant, his 18adjutant Hoessler, and the chief designer, who ultimately 19must make sense of it on a practical, technological scale, 20all go for a whole day to Lischmannstadt, and it is not a 21small trip. They need to get special permission for that 22(because one always needs special permissions for these 23trips) to basically to see what Bloebel is doing there. 24 Then we have also another German, we have the 25original request from Auschwitz to Glucks, we have the 26permit now being produced and we have the final result, a

. P-105

1report of what happened during that trip. 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: So Lischmannstadt is close to Chelmno? 3A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes, Chelmo -- I mean, Lischmannstadt is a very big city. 4Chelmno is just a hamlet. 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is what I was missing. 6MR IRVING: Is it your submission, therefore, that this five 7tonne truck load of Zyklon-B which was fetched, I think we 8agree, the materials, from Dessau to Auschwitz, what was 9the five tonne truck of Zyklon-B, what were the materials 10to be used for? Just for gassing people? 11A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
OK, so we finished with this document now on the ---- 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
Well, would you answer my question? 13A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I just want to know if I still have to take that into 14consideration in the answer or not. 15Q.
[Mr Irving]
No, you do not, no. 16A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
OK. 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
We are back on the trucks going back and forth between 18Auschwitz and Dessau. 19A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
The trucks went back and forth to Dessau. They collected 20Zyklon-B and Zyklon-B was used in many different ways in 21the camp. 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
But five tonnes seems an awful lot. That is the point 23I am making. Over five tonnes? 24A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
But let us remember, just if we talk -- we do not talk 25about five tonnes Zyklon-B because when we ultimately talk 26about the way Zyklon-B is shipped, it is shipped in

. P-106

1containers and then the containers themselves contain 2earth in which the Zyklon-B is ---- 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
The largest tin was one kilogram, was it not? 4A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
The largest tin was one kilogram, one kilogram of 5Zyklon-B, but the original invoices from the shipping of 6the Daigash of Zyklon-B always gives the brutto weight -- 7I mean the gross weight of what a tin is and then 8ultimately also the net wet of Zyklon included in that. 9Q.
[Mr Irving]
But the Zyklon is the pellets; it is not just the 10cyanide? 11A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
The pellets too, so in order to -- basically, if you get 12five tonnes weight of tins with contents, the total weight 13actually inside of Zyklon, of hydrogen cyanide, will be 14less than a tonne and I can give you the exact figure. 15Q.
[Mr Irving]
You are saying that is the weight of the tin to be taken 16into account? 17A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
The tin and, of the course, pellets in which the Zyklon 18has been taken in, and all that information is available 19and I can give it to you if you just give me time to look. 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
Are you suggesting that Zyklon is another word 21for hydrogen cyanide? 22A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Zyklon is a commercial name for a product ---- 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
For the pellet containing the hydrogen cyanide? 24A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Containing the hydrogen cyanide. 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
You are not trying to make out that Zyklon is the hydrogen 26cyanide element in the pellets?

. P-107

1A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No, it is a commercial name. 2Q.
[Mr Irving]
So if five tonnes of pellets were picked up, then it is 3five tonnes of tins containing Zyklon-B pellets? 4A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. The truck is not going to carry more than five 5tonnes, whatever it is. So, ultimately, the amount of 6hydrogen cyanide which actually is carried by this truck 7will be closer to because it is more or less, I think 81/5th of the gross weight of a tin is actually hydrogen 9cyanide will be closer to a tonne than five tonnes. 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, are you putting forward a positive 11case as to what the materials for the Jew resettlement 12were if they were not Zyklon-B? 13MR IRVING: We are just going to move to document 0, my Lord, 14the first document in that next clip. 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: So that is going to answer the question, is 16it? 17MR IRVING: Which I hope will go a long way towards answering 18the question. This comes from exactly the same kind of 19source. It is the one which the Holocaust historians 20never quote. They frequently quote the other two or three 21which are in this clip. This is received in Auschwitz on 22July 22nd 1942, again from Berlin: "I herewith give 23permission for one five tonne truck to drive from 24Auschwitz to Dessau and back to fetch gas for the gassing 25of the camp to combat the epidemic that has broken out". 26 Now you can read that document whichever way you

. P-108

1wish, my Lord. It is quite possible, of course, that the 2Defence will submit that this is just camouflage. 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us ask Professor van Pelt. 4A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Absolutely I do not think it is camouflage. I think that 5in my book at a certain moment (and Mr Irving picked it 6up) I said that in the summer 1942 a lot of Zyklon was 7being used in the camp, to indeed, basically, how you call 8it, fumigate clothing and barracks because there was an 9epidemic. 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
We will just remain with this for two or three more 11minutes, my Lord. 12A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
But it does not mean it was the exclusive use of Zyklon-B. 13Q.
[Mr Irving]
Just before the adjournment -- this largely ends that 14matter -- in your section 5 called "Confession"s, you have 15reproduced the testimony of a man called Muka, who was the 16adjutant of the Kommandant of Auschwitz at this time. 17A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I do. Shall we turn to the particular page? 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
These permission slips to dispatch the trucks were 19frequently signed by Muka, were they not? 20A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Let us go to the page. I am happy, I know what you refer 21to, statements made in the Frankfurt trial, but I do not 22exactly know where it is right now. Do you have a page 23number. 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
Only that it is in (v) "Confessions". My pagination, 25unfortunately ---- 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think, as we have not got the reference to

. P-109

1hand, shall we deal with that at 2 o'clock? 2MR IRVING: Until 2 o'clock? Very well, my Lord. 3(Luncheon adjournment) 4MR IRVING: My Lord, might I ask that you remind those present 5that we are not sitting tomorrow in case some people make 6the mistake and come tomorrow and do not realize that we 7are not sitting? 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: You are quite right that we are not sitting 9tomorrow, but also on Friday, what I would like to do is 10perhaps start an half an hour earlier than normal and 11probably finish earlier than normal as well, so sit at 10 12on Friday. Yes. 13MR IRVING: From Dessau to Auschwitz, my Lord, but before I go 14on, can I remark on something in my translation about 15field kitchens? Firstly, as your Lordship is aware, 16I have never denied the killings in Chelmno and, if those 17documents are connected in any way, then I fully accept 18that and that is a logical interpretation. Secondly, my 19wartime German medical dictionary says "ofen" is a stove. 20That is a translation for it. So it is not actually in 21the form of a grating which would be gussen in German, 22I believe. So I think, although I am quite prepared to 23accept Professor van Pelt's interpretation of that 24document, not being aware of the surrounding foliage of 25the documents which Professor van Pelt has, this, your 26Lordship will appreciate, is rather the position I have

. P-110

1been in. Some of the documents, I have been aware of the 2surrounding document foliage which gives colour to 3particular translations. I am perfectly prepared to 4accept the interpretation of that word in any case. 5 We were looking at section 5 called 6"confessions" of your report. You quote the testimony 7given in a later trial of the man called Mulka, who was on 8Hess's staff, who assigned some of these driving permits. 9I do not know the page number. 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: Perhaps the defendants can help? 11 MR RAMPTON: We are going to try. 12MR IRVING: These permits were provided to the prosecution in 13the so-called Auschwitz Frankfurt trial. 14A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I have found the thing, by the way. It is page 320 in my 15edition. 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: 514 I was going to offer, but we will try to 17look at 320 first. 18MR IRVING: These were submitted as evidence in the Frankfurt 19Auschwitz trial and Mulka was cross-examined. The 20presiding judge on this occasion asked him about these 21slips: 22 "Accused Mulka, have you signed permissions for 23trips to Dessau? (Mulka) I only remember one occasion. A 24permission was signed by Glucks and at the left bottom 25countersigned by me. It concerned a disinfection means. 26(Question) Here it reads 'For the resettlement of the

. P-111

1Jews' -- one of documents which I produced, my Lord -- 2and 'In confirmation of the copy Mulka'. You knew what 3the resettlement of the Jews meant? (Mulka) Yes, that was 4known to me. (Q) And what were those materials for the 5resettlement of the Jews? (Mulka) (silently) -- I am not 6sure how one can do that -- Yes, raw materials. (Q) All 7right then. That was thus Zyklon-B? (Mulka) (even more 8silently) Yes, Zyklon-B". 9 Of course, that is a rather odd kind of 10examination by the presiding judge, is it not, Professor 11van Pelt? You would have expected, certainly if 12Mr Justice Gray had been presiding there, he would have 13asked the obvious follow up question, what was it going to 14be used for? Either it was not asked, or it was not 15recorded, or you did not tell us? 16A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Now. There are no dots in paragraph. The original page 17is in the binder so you can check the original page, if I 18have quoted the thing as a whole or if I have left 19something out, but I can assure you, my Lord, that 20I quoted the whole passage. So the third kind of option 21I would reject out of hand. I think that probably the 22problem in this court was that people knew too well what 23these words meant and what was implied by the question, 24and that they did not find it necessary to be very 25specific about it. If I had been the judge, I probably 26would have asked one more extra question, but the judge

. P-112

1did not do it. 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: In other words, there is some force in Mr 3Irving's point? I think you are conceding that? 4A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. 5MR IRVING: I am not for one moment implying, and I want to 6make it quite plain, that Professor van Pelt has omitted 7any response or any subsequent question which was material 8to this issue, but it is a rather odd kind of examination, 9that the presiding judge did not say, "And what were these 10materials to be used for to your certain knowledge", 11whereupon Mulka could either say, "Oh, they were going to 12be used for fumigation or they were going to be used for 13killing human beings". It is a negative piece of evidence 14and I will now ask Professor van Pelt, of these five 15tonnes of Zyklon-B pellets, or over five tonnes, that were 16picked up on a trip like this, in your estimation how much 17would be used for fumigation purposes? In other words, 18for innocent life saving purposes as opposed to homicidal 19purposes? What kind of percentage? 20A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
That is very difficult to say. I have submitted to the 21court a document in which I calculate, on the basis of the 22figures for 1943, the likely use of Zyklon-B in 23Auschwitz. This is the supplement to the expert's 24opinion. I am happy to go through those figures. 25 MR RAMPTON: My Lord, part I of the blue file. 26A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I am happy to go through those figures because, if you

. P-113

1want me to be very specific, I can be very specific, and 2I made quite detailed calculations. Of course the 3question depends on how large is the camp at the time, how 4many prisoners are there at the time, how many delousing 5installations are available in the camp at the time, what 6kind of transports are coming in, and so on. 7MR IRVING: Let us see if you can talk in round figures. If it 8was being used for fumigation purposes, it would be used 9for two fumigation purposes, would it not, for fumigating 10barracks and for fumigating clothing and objects, shall we 11say? 12A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes, you are right. 13Q.
[Mr Irving]
For that purpose they had a purpose built fumigation 14chamber in Auschwitz, the one that we have seen with the 15blue stains on the outside walls? 16A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
There are a number of them, in fact. There was one 17building ---- 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
B W 5? 19A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Also in Auschwitz I there was a building with two 20fumigation rooms but they were probably used consecutively 21in Auschwitz. Then there was a fumigation or delousing 22facility in Canada I which we discussed yesterday, where 23the hair was found and we have a fumigation capability in 24Zyklon, I am now talking only about Zyklon, in Birkenhau, 25in the women's camp. 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
What other kind of fumigation equipment did they have

. P-114

1apart from Zyklon? Did they have any other equipment at 2any time in Auschwitz and Birkenhau? 3A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Do you mean toxic equipment? 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
Any kind of methods of killing pests. 5A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
The preferred method, if they could do that, they would 6really prefer, was either by hot air or hot steam. 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
Would not hot steam have a bad effect on textiles? 8A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
That was one of many of the prisoners, inmates. They 9complained that always, when their prisoner clothing had 10been disinfected, had come back from the so-called 11Entwesungsanlage as they were called, indeed they had 12shrunk considerably. This is a continuous problem in the 13history of the camp. 14Q.
[Mr Irving]
So the entwesungsanlage is a familiar concept to you, 15then, that German word? It is disinfestation equipment? 16A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
Is it also familiar to you that, at a relatively late 18stage in the war years, the Siemens Company were 19installing an electrical system of pest killing based on 20microwave? 21A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes, kurzwelle Entlausungsanlage. 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
The short wave disinfestation equipment? 23A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
This was rather like a microwave cooker for cooking the 25insects basically? 26A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I do not exactly know the technology but I trust your

. P-115

1description. 2Q.
[Mr Irving]
This was basically a high voltage system using a lot of 3electric power that was going to be installed in 4Birkenhau? 5A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
It was going to be installed but, as far as I know, it 6actually never was installed. 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
It arrived. It was delivered. 8A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
It was actually meant for Auschwitz I. What happened was 9that in Auschwitz I a very large Zyklon-B delousing 10installation was created at the aufnahmegebaude which is 11the reception building for prisoners. There were 19 12standard delousing cells, each of 10 cubic metres which 13uses two hundred grammes of Zyklon-B, the smallest tin, 14and as this building was being completed, the SS decided 15to change the method of disinfection in those cells, at 16least in four of those cells. There were 19 so 15 would 17remain Zyklon-B, and four of them would be the Siemens. 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
What word would they use to describe that kind of room or 19building? Would it be a Vergasungsraum or a 20Vergasungskeller? 21A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
In general these rooms are called Gaskammer. 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
They are also called Gaskammer? 23A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. In 1944, however, I have to go because in 1944 24actually the language changes. They called them normal 25Gaskammer, which means on the type sheets which were 26produced by the SS and, if you allow me, my Lord, I will

. P-116

1just make ---- 2Q.
[Mr Irving]
Normal means standard, does it not, in that context? 3A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. The SS produced standard designs for concentration 4camps which were handed out to people who were building in 5the field. What happens is that these sheets were 6produced in 1941 to give a local concentration camp 7kommandant some guidelines of where to start when he was 8ordered to create a concentration camp. These designs 9include two designs for delousing facilities and in those 10designs these spaces are called Gaskammer, for example. 11Q.
[Mr Irving]
Would there be very much talk of these gas chambers 12amongst the prisoners, do you think? Would there be a lot 13of gossip about them? 14A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
May I complete the answer because we were talking about 15the name of the thing? They use Gaskammer. Then in 1944 16at a certain moment in Auschwitz they started to use the 17cells specially in relationship to the building where 18these four cells are being adjusted to the Siemens 19procedure. They start to call them normal Gaskammer, which 20means standard or normal gas chambers. So then the 21question is in relationship to what? Is it in 22relationship to an abnormal one, which is a homicidal one, 23which some people have concluded, or is it in relationship 24to some other gas chamber? 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
Professor van Pelt, you are familiar with the fact that 26the German world "normal" is not translated as "normal",

. P-117

1it is translated as "standard"? 2A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Standard. 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
"Normalfilm" is 35 millimetre film, for example. 4A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I think the first translation I give was "standard". 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
In other words, you cannot draw adventurous conclusions 6from the fact that they called something a standard gas 7chamber? 8A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I said some people have done that. I did not say I did 9myself. 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
Would it not be just a standard piece of equipment 11delivered by Degesch or by Tesh who actually manufactured 12gas chambers for precisely this purpose and they had 13standard sizes? 14A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
You interrupted me. My own conclusion was indeed that 15"normal Gaskammer" probably referred to the ten cubic 16metre standard Degesch gas chambers. 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
That has nothing to do with the fact that, because we are 18calling this one the normal one, therefore there were 19abnormal ones somewhere else in the camp. This was 20misleading for you to state that, was it not? 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: No. He said to the contrary. He does not 22himself subscribe to the theory that normal Gaskammer 23implies an abnormal Gaskammer where homicidal events took 24place? 25A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
If I can just finish this in one sentence, then another 26word is being used in Auschwitz at the time. We find it

. P-118

1on many bills and also documents by Degesh at the time in 21944 which actually is about the Zyklon-B gas chambers in 3Auschwitz I, and they used the word Begasungskammer. This 4is very unusual, but there are a number of documents which 5use the word Begasungskammer. 6MR IRVING: The sense of that would be the gassing chamber, 7would it not? 8A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. It is almost like adding gas, like applying gas to, 9the gas supplying chamber, maybe that would be a 10translation. 11Q.
[Mr Irving]
I agree with that, yes. 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sorry, I am interrupting as well. 13A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I have finished. 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is there any significance in the V E R at the 15beginning of Vergasungskammer as a German speaker? 16A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I am not a German. I am not a native German speaker. 17Dutch is still ---- 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
You seem fairly familiar with it. 19A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I would say no. Vergasung seems to be a transitive verb. 20I do not attach any particular significance to the fact 21that it is used like that. 22MR IRVING: My Lord, I will be putting to your Lordship a 23number of documents with the word Vergasung in, which 24obviously are completely innocent, in an attempt to 25persuade your Lordship in that direction. 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: Good.

. P-119

1MR IRVING: Professor van Pelt, have you seen invoices or 2delivery notes from the Degesch company relating to 3supplies of Zyklon-B shipments to the concentration camps 4at Auschwitz and at Oranienburg? 5A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. I think 12 of these invoices were submitted in the 6Nuremberg trials. 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
The original documents are there, are they not? 8A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. I have seen a number. All the invoices are for the 9same one amount, except one,, which is a slightly higher 10amount, so I have seen a copy of the standard amount and 11one for the higher amount. I have not seen all the 12invoices in the original. 13Q.
[Mr Irving]
Had you seen these at the time you wrote your book, or 14just between writing your book and writing your expert 15report? 16A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No. I have seen these earlier. 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
Before you wrote your book? 18A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. Did you do any kind of analysis of those invoices to 20see the rate at which these supplies were being delivered 21to Auschwitz as compared with Oranienburg? 22A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No. The invoices themselves, and I have made a particular 23comment on it once you raised the issue in your letter of 24December, I do not think are particularly important as 25evidence one way or another about the use of Zyklon-B in 26Auschwitz, because there are actually much better sources

. P-120

1available to us if one wants to raise that issue, which is 2the Tesh and Stabanov accounts of total deliveries of 3Zyklon B to Auschwitz in 1942 and 1943. 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
Am I right in saying that the chief accountant of the Tesh 5company had a pocket notebook in which he entered all the 6amounts that he supplied to Auschwitz and to various other 7armed force branches and so on on a monthly basis? He 8kept this notebook and it was introduced in evidence in 9that trial? 10A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
It was introduced as evidence. I think there were also 11supporting documents for that. 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
But am I right in suggesting that these invoices to which 13I refer, the delivery notes which were introduced in 14Nuremberg, the 12 delivery notes, relating to the supply 15of Zyklon-B quantities to Auschwitz concentration camp and 16to Oranienburg concentration camp, they are relatively 17random? In other words, first of all, they are 18sequentially numbered, and the deliveries are sequentially 19numbered? 20A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes, but ---- 21Q.
[Mr Irving]
They are in sequence so there is nothing missing? 22A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes, but these particular invoices come with a very 23particular history. 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
Are you implying that there is anything suspect about the 25integrity of these documents? 26A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No, I do not imply that at all, but I think the way they

. P-121

1were generated -- these were an appendix. They were 2handed over together with an account of how they came in 3the possession of the man who had it. 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
We will come to the man to whom they are addressed in a 5minute. 6A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
This man gives a record of the background of these 7particular invoices which had to do with a particular 8request which came to him from a certain Sturmanfuhrer 9Gunter in Berlin. 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
Who was Eichmann's assistant, am I correct? 11A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, can I ask you for my benefit 13because remember this is a completely new point to me. 14Can you put what you suggest one gets from the Oranienburg 15invoices in relation to the quantity of use of Zyklon-B 16there? 17MR IRVING: It is my very next question, my Lord. 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: Good. Thank you. 19MR IRVING: Am I right in suggesting that identical quantities, 20broadly speaking, of Zyklon-B were delivered to Auschwitz 21and Oranienburg over the time covered by those 12 22invoices? 23A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
The invoices talk about identical quantities to 24Oranienburg and Auschwitz. But the important question is, 25is this all the deliveries of Zyklon-B to Auschwitz? Then 26we have to go back to actually the origin of these

. P-122

1documents. 2Q.
[Mr Irving]
We are looking just at these 12 documents to start with? 3A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
If we only look at these 12 documents. 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
Can you remember my question, please, Professor van Pelt, 5where I said is it correct to say that the deliveries are 6numbered in sequence and that there are no missing 7numbers? 8A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I do not remember, but I will take your word for it. 9Q.
[Mr Irving]
Thank you very much. Am I right in saying that it has 10never been suggested that there were mass homicidal 11killings by gas chambers in Oranienburg? 12A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No, there were some experimental probably, accounts of 13experimental gassings of some Russians in Satzenhausen 14which was in fact a concentration camp in Oranienburg, but 15apart from that ---- 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: In 1944? 17A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
1942. 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: We are talking about 1944? 19A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I just want to be precise. The general question was posed 20and I do not want to say that there was never any Zyklon-B 21gassing. There are reports of that in that city. 22MR IRVING: Am I correct in saying that these invoices to which 23you are referring are from the early months of 1944? My 24memory says that. 25A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
Can you tell the court to whom these invoices were

. P-123

1personally addressed? 2A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
They were addressed to a man named Kurt Gerstein. 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
G E R S T E I N. What is on the next line of the address, 4can you remember, at Auschwitz concentration camp? 5A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I have a copy somewhere. 6Q.
[Mr Irving]
It seems important. 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: Berlin? 8A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I have it in my report after page 11. 9MR IRVING: Your Lordship will remember that Professor Evans 10said that I had not the slightest reason for saying that 11these were going for fumigation purposes in the camp. 12What does the next line read? 13A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
After his name? 14Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. Does it not say that it is going to the 15Entwesungsabteilung or words to that effect? 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: Not in my copy. 17A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No, it is not in the next line. It is actually in the 18invoice bit itself. 19MR IRVING: Yes? 20A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
It says we did send at the 8th March from Dessau with a 21Wehrmacht Vorbrief, which means an army kind of 22transportation voucher, of the jedestatt Verwaltung 23Dessau. 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
Administration? 25A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
At Dessau to the concentration camp in Auschwitz, the 26department of disinfestation and anzeufer is a plague.

. P-124

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
It is tortology, really. They are both the same thing are 2they not? 3A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No they are not exactly. 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
Disinfecting and disinfestation? 5A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Seuche is an epidemic so anti-epidemic department. 6Q.
[Mr Irving]
Epidemic control? 7A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Epidemic control department, yes. 8Q.
[Mr Irving]
This was in fact Kurt Gerstein's position, was it not? 9A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Not in Auschwitz. He was employed at the Hygienic 10Institute in Oranienburg. 11Q.
[Mr Irving]
Is it not significant that these huge quantities of Zyklon 12pellets are being sent to the office in charge of epidemic 13control at Auschwitz? What use is made of them 14subsequently of course is another matter. But this deals 15with the system again? 16A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
What is significant is who will receive Zyklon when it 17arrives in Auschwitz. Again, from my witness testimony, 18we know that it was exactly that department which 19controlled all Zyklon in Auschwitz, and ultimately that 20was one of the reasons also that doctors always had to be 21present when Zyklon was applied one way or the other. 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
Now that we are with the person of Kurt Gerstein, will you 23tell the court if he is one of your eyewitnesses in any 24respect when you write your report? 25A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No. Kurt Gerstein has made no statement whatsoever about 26Auschwitz or the gas chambers of crematoria 1, 2, 3, 4 and

. P-125

15. 2Q.
[Mr Irving]
Have you placed any reliance on Kurt Gerstein in your 3report? 4A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I did not need to place any reliance in my work on 5Auschwitz since he has never made any testimony about 6Auschwitz. 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
Although he made some very detailed allegations about how 8many people were killed in the gas chambers elsewhere, and 9he gave figures for the quantities killed in the other gas 10chambers in the other camps, you are not prepared to draw 11conclusions about the general reliability of this kind of 12eyewitness? 13A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No. I do not think that at the moment the statement you 14made can be supported. I think that Kurt Gerstein has 15made a detailed account of a visit to Treblinka where he 16came in the summer of 1942. He made a detailed 17description of that. 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
Professor Vananstiel, that is correct? 19A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Professor Vananstiel(?) Later Professor Vananstiel after 20the war confirmed that indeed he had been with Kurt 21Gerstein in Treblinka and confirmed more or less the 22account, except where it applies to his own role in this 23trip, a number of remarks he would have made while looking 24through the spy hole into the gas chamber, but apart from 25Kurt Gerstein has not made any calculations, as far as 26I know, I do not think he even made about Treblinka or

. P-126

1for that matter he never mentioned Auschwitz in any 2context of extermination. 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
I am only deal with the Gerstein report in the context of 4reliability of eyewitness evidence in general. This is 5the only reason I am going to ask the next few questions. 6Did Mr Kurt Gerstein, who was an SS officer, make any 7statements about the number of people who were packed into 8the gas chamber that he witnessed allegedly? 9A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I am not going to comment on that without the document in 10front of me. 11Q.
[Mr Irving]
You have not read the Gerstein report? 12A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Of course I have read various editions of the Gerstein 13report, both the French and the German, but I am not going 14to comment on what Kurt Gerstein may have said or may not 15have said when I do not have the document in front of me. 16Q.
[Mr Irving]
Are you aware that there seven different versions of the 17Gerstein report? 18A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I know there are various different versions. I did not 19know it was seven. 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
Are you aware that each successive version of the report 21became more lurid in French captivity and that the numbers 22grew larger like Topsy? 23A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Mr Irving I do not remember ---- 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
I should have asked how many versions of the report have 25you read? 26A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I have read three versions of the report.

. P-127

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
Did you notice any discrepancy between the figures and the 2general scale of the atrocity he was describing? 3A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No. The reports are longer and shorter, so I have not 4compared them on actual figures. In some reports he 5includes more information, and in other reports he has 6less. I have not made a comparative study of all the 7reports together because they do not apply to Auschwitz. 8Q.
[Mr Irving]
Very well. 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: Professor van Pelt, this part of the 10cross-examination started off, I think, on the topic of 11how much Zyklon B went to Auschwitz, how much of it might 12have been used for delousing and disinfecting and all the 13rest of it, therefore how much was left, if any? 14A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. 15Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Can you ---- 16MR IRVING: I was about to come back on to that main line with 17certain specific questions. 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: May I get the answer to my question, 19Mr Irving, first? 20A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Can you give me in broad terms an answer, so far as your 21conclusions on that question go? 22A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
OK. May I use the document for that? 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
Of course. I just thought it was a convenient way short 24circuiting? 25A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
There are two years on which we know, on the basis of the 26testimony of Alfred Sahen, supported by his notebook but

. P-128

1also other information available at the trial of 2distributors. They were not really distributors, people 3that allocate Zyklon-B. The amounts of deliveries of 4Zyklon-B to Auschwitz, that is 1942 and 1943. On page 22 5of my additional report, one can read that in 1942, seven 6and a half thousand kilos were delivered to Auschwitz, and 7in 1943 12,000 kilos were delivered do Auschwitz. 8MR IRVING: That is 12 tonnes? 9A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
12 tonnes were delivered to Auschwitz. I have done a 10calculation. In 1942 this seven and a half thousand kilos 11to Auschwitz comes out of 9,000 kilos to the whole 12concentration camp system. Again, I do not draw the 13conclusion but I want to say the conclusion other people 14have drawn is that, since Auschwitz received more than 15three-quarters of all the Zyklon-B, something like 80 per 16cent of the Zyklon-B, this meant of course this could only 17have been caused by the use of Zyklon-B as a killing agent 18and I do not agree such a simple jump. 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
Can we be quite plain that you do not agree with that? 20A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Not simply on the basis that there were seven and a half 21thousand kilos going to Zyklon-B, and 1,500 to the rest of 22the concentration camp system. I would not jump 23immediately to the conclusion. I think one has to be more 24careful when one comes to conclusions. 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
Can I ask you one question here? How many satellite camps 26were dependant on Auschwitz as their central distribution

. P-129

1headquarters? 2A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
In 1943 or 1942? 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
Shall we say 1944? 4A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
1944, 34, but many measures were very small. May 5I continue to answer the question his Lordship has asked? 6Q.
[Mr Irving]
This need not necessarily just have been going to 7Auschwitz itself, they would have been possibly shovelling 8it on to other places that needed it? 9A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes, but only few of those camps had actually delousing 10installations. Most of the delousing for the satellite 11camps were actually done back in Auschwitz. 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
When you delouse a barracks or a barrack room like this 13room here, do you need installation or do you just close 14all the doors and windows and do what the Americans call 15tenting? 16A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
My Lord, I am a little confused right now. 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. Come back to that, Mr Irving. I am 18getting an explanation of the total figures that went to 19Auschwitz. So you do not make the jump simply from 20relative quantities? 21A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No. I have made the calculation and ultimately what I do 22is that I am making the two ways actually to determine 23what is a normal use for Zyklon-B? The first is to look 24at other camps. What would a camp of the same size use 25compared to Auschwitz? That is the first exercise I did 26on pages 25 and 26. For example, we have information for

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11943 so that is why it is important to look at 1943. 2There is Satzenhausen in 1943 at 40,000 inmates, and it 3almost used 3,000 kilos of Zyklon-B that year. If 4Auschwitz would have been the same size as Satzenhausen 5because Auschwitz had an average of 60,000 inmates that 6year, it would have used four and a half thousand kilo if 7indeed we could take the Satzenhausen figure as a point of 8departure. In fact, Auschwitz uses 12,000. Then we look 9at other camps, how much do they get, and we start to 10basically priorate population figures. 11MR IRVING: These figures are quite meaningless because of 12course we know that Auschwitz was at the centre of one of 13the worst epidemics in history. 14A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Not any more in 1943. 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: That was summer 1942, was it not? 16MR IRVING: There was another epidemic in January 1943? 17A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
There was a smaller epidemic in January 1943, which was 18dealt with rather quickly, and the outbreak of an epidemic 19in the gypsy camp in the summer of 1942 almost had no 20deaths. 21Q.
[Mr Irving]
The whole point is that you use Zyklon B preemptively. 22You do not use it as a mopping up operation. You use it 23to stop it happening again. 24A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Mostly. 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
You fumigate barracks again and again and again. 26A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Survivors have testified to the fact that these barracks

. P-131

1were not very often fumigated. I have recently, but 2I will try to continue my arguments. But I will just 3finish this sentence. 4MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, it would be helpful to me at any 5rate if he can complete this answer and then you can of 6course cross-examine on it. 7MR IRVING: I am restraining myself but that was an important 8point to make I think. 9A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
OK. So, my Lord, so at the one side we can look at, kind 10of, the figures in other camps, and we then we look at 11Auschwitz. On page 26, I think demonstrates that the 12Auschwitz figure of 12,000 kilos is much higher than you 13would expect on the basis of deliveries to other camps if 14we take the different sizes into account. 15 Then the second kind of exercise one can do is 16to look at the way Zyklon-B could have been used in 17Auschwitz. So how much would have used in delousing in 18this year? This is, I start to do this on page 27 and it 19continues. It gets a very detailed kind of calculation. 20 I start out with -- the question is, where are 21the delousing rooms and what is the capacity of these 22delousing rooms? So in 1943, the total Zyklon B delousing 23space was 940 cubic metres. That is from the bottom of 24page 27. 25 Now, then we are going to look of how much, what 26concentration of hydrogen cyanide would have been used in

. P-132

1these rooms, and I refer back to a German war time 2document by the [German] which is the Health Institution 3of the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia in Prague, 4which instructs that one needs eight grammes of Zyklon-B 5per cubic metre for 16 hours to kill vermins, such as 6bugs, lice, flees, etc.. 7 Now, I assume that these delousing spaces would 8have, indeed, used that concentration. It is the only 9kind of basis I can work on, and that as a result of that 10is that if we have one gassing per day in each of these 11rooms -- now, this is very unlikely because there were 12large rooms actually in the Sturmlager in Auschwitz which 13eyewitness testimony says were only used irregularly, but 14now I am assuming for a moment that these eyewitness are 15wrong, and that they were used every day, I come to 16basically seven-and-a-half kilogrammes of Zyklon-B per day 17or 2,730 kilos of Zyklon-B per year if there is a 18delousing every day. So I have now in some way accounted 19at a maximum delousing capacity in the camp for 2,730 20kilos of Zyklon-B. 21 So now we are going to look at the average size 22of each barrack which is 12,000 -- and these are the 23barracks in Birkenhau right now -- 12,000 cubic metres, in 24which the barracks in the women's camp are slightly larger 25and barracks in building sector 2 are slightly smaller. 26They are around 1200. In the women's camp they were

. P-133

1around 1250 and in Auschwitz they were larger. 2 So if we take again the same concentration, this 3would be quite a high concentration for the delousing of 4barracks. One needs in Birkenhau six to 10 kilos per 5barrack, and in Auschwitz one where they are two-storey 6barracks, 12 to 20 kilos per barrack, which means that the 7complete delousing of all the 192 dwelling barracks in 8Birkenhau would take between 1200 and 1900 kilos, and all 9the 30 ---- 10MR IRVING: Each time, right? 11A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Each time, and all the 30 dwelling barracks in Auschwitz 12would take 360 and 600 kilos of Zyklon-B. Then there were 13also workshop storage barracks, and they would have taken 14240 to 400 kilos, which means that the complete delousing 15of the camp (and we are now talking about Auschwitz 1 and 16Auschwitz 2) would have taken between 1750 and 2,900 17kilos. 18 Now, on the basis of this comparison with these 19other camps, I had established that an amount of 9,000 20kilos for Zyklon-B for Auschwitz in 1943 would have been 21within the kind of range of the possible. It would be the 22high end, but I would not have been surprised to see so 23much. 24 This means that if we take that 9,000 as a kind 25of bench mark of what a normal -- Auschwitz under normal 26conditions would have used, then we can have at least two

. P-134

1complete delousing of all the barracks in the camp in 21943. 3 Now, I take two eyewitness testimonies which is 4one from Helen Zipitehau who was in the women's camp from 5-- a Slovac Jew -- 1942 until the liberation in 1945. 6She remembered three our four of these large delousings of 7the whole women's camp in her two-and-a-half year stay. 8Then Dr Ziegsmund Bendel in the Tesch trial declared that 9he has only one delousing of the barracks during his 13 10month stay in Auschwitz. This is the kind of practical 11information we have about how many times. I mean, I do 12not have any more information on that. 13 It seems then that the 1750 to 2,000 -- that 14this let us say two or three, maybe two delousings in 1943 15of the whole camp would still bring us below the 9,000 16kilos of Zyklon used after all the gas chambers have been 17working every day, the delousing gas chambers, and 18basically we have had the delousing of the blocks. 19 I must make one kind of -- a particular 20thing must be noted, that if in the German document 21sometimes there is talking about the "Entlausung des 22Blocks", it means that the people in the block are going 23to be taken to be deloused. There is particular things. 24It says that block 11 was "entlaust" which means everyone 25was taken to be BW5A, the delousing building in the 26women's camp, or so on.

. P-135

1 This means then when we go to page 29 that I say 2that 9,000 given these two, these very infrequent 3delousings of the whole camp, that those 9,000 kilos of 4Zyklon-B which I originally established on the basis of 5comparison with other camps seems to be on the high side 6but within the ball park of what Auschwitz would have 7needed for its normal concentration camp purposes. 8 So then the question is, what are these other 93,000 kilos of Zyklon-B going to be used for? What other 10kind of needs did Auschwitz have for Zyklon-B which were 11not to be found in other concentration camps? 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: That, I think, probably completes your 13answer. It is a long answer, but it was very helpful and 14very clear to me. So back to Mr Irving. 15MR IRVING: My first question is you have, of course, read, 16have you not, the testimony and supporting evidence in the 17trial of Bruno Tesch whose company was the main 18distributor East of the Elf for Zyklon-B? 19A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I told you before that I have read parts of the trial and 20part of testimony. In detail, they are the testimony of 21Alfred Zamm. 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
This question is not meant to be the least bit offensive, 23but you are not an expert in disinfestation, are you? 24A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No, I am not. 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
The company of Tesch and Stavanacht were, in fact, the 26leading disinfestation experts in the whole of Europe

. P-136

1which is why their Managing Director found himself on the 2end of a British rope in 1946? 3A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I do not think that is why he found himself on the rope, 4but they were the leading firm, yes. They developed the 5procedure. 6Q.
[Mr Irving]
The record of the trial shows that both he and his fellow 7convict, Weinbarer, repeatedly visited these camps and 8checked what was going on and trained the local staff in 9the proper application and use of these pesticides and 10fumigating agents, these materials, is that not right? 11A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I remember that in the transcript of what I read that, 12indeed, there is a mention of these visits, but I would 13not comment in detail since I do not have them in front of 14me. 15Q.
[Mr Irving]
Is it not right that during the trial, which is recorded 16verbatim -- it is in the Public Record Office, in fact -- 17the accountant of the company was required to produce the 18records on which you have partially based your 19calculations showing precisely what the deliveries of 20Zyklon-B to Auschwitz were during the years concerned for 21precisely the same exercise that we have been doing in 22court today? 23A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
That exercise has not been done. 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
In the Tesch trial? 25A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
At the trial, at the trial they did not do this exercise. 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
Have you read the letters of clemency that were submitted

. P-137

1to the court after the death sentences were passed? 2A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I have not. 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. Well, then we are in a difficulty. Will you take it 4Bruno Tesch, the Managing Director, when confronted with 5the figures of Zyklon-B delivered to the Auschwitz camp, 6and doing the calculation of how many sets of clothing had 7had to be fumigated on a regular interval, on a regular 8basis, and how many barrack buildings had had to be 9fumigated and disinfested, expressed astonishment that 10they managed to do the task with as little as 12 tonnes in 11that one year concerned? He said that on these figures 12they would have had nothing left whatsoever for any kind 13of sinister purposes, and that this is very clearly stated 14in the trial and in appeals for clemency? 15A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I cannot comment on what Mr Tesch said. What I can 16comment on is the fact that the amount of Zyklon being 17delivered to other camps was so much smaller than 18Auschwitz that I think this is a more interesting road to 19pursue. 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
That was, of course, the point of my interruption which 21his Lordship quite properly reproved me for, when 22I pointed out that Auschwitz was receiving very large 23quantities of pesticide for a certain reason which you set 24out so admirably in your first book, namely, that 25Auschwitz had been built in the middle of an area which 26had traditionally over the centuries attracted typhus

. P-138

1plagues, and it was the heart of a terrible typhus plague 2in 1942? 3A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I do remember what is in my book without actually having 4to consult it. I never say anywhere in the book that 5Auschwitz was a place which was suffering typhus plagues. 6I only mentioned the issue of climate actually in the 7discussion of an introduction of Jan Sehn to his report on 8Auschwitz where Jan Sehn makes a very big point of it, and 9where I say actually I disagree because Jan Sehn in some 10way tries to create a context of unhealthiness for the 11place as if the Germans had chosen Auschwitz with this in 12mind. I say this, obviously, is not supported by 13historical evidence. 14Q.
[Mr Irving]
Had Auschwitz ever been used as a disinfestation centre 15for transients in previous generations or before the Nazis 16came? Had they used it -- it was right on the border of 17the Austro-Hungarian Empire, was it not? 18A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. This is part of my research in the past has been 19actually on the origin of the camp, and the Sturmlager was 20originally created as a labour exchange. 21Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. It had all the appropriate installations there for 22fumigating the transients, did it not? 23A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
They had no installations whatsoever for the fumigation of 24transients. 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
Not for preparing them in this manner? 26A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I mean, one of the big problems was, of course, that

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1Zyklon did not exist at the time, at the time that when 2the camp functioned there were also no steam installations 3or hot air installations. 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
Have I read your book entirely wrongly then when you 5suggest that the transients were held in Auschwitz for a 6while and subjected to appropriate measures to make sure 7they were fit for travelling into a cleaner part of 8Europe? 9A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I have -- I think you are confusing two things. I can see 10where the confusion comes from. There is one quote I make 11a general, in the book, a general kind of description of 12the movement of Eastern European Jews who go to America 13and who cross the border and at a certain moment are going 14to be -- their clothing is going to be deloused one way or 15another. It does not say what way it is. It is an 16account of a girl called Mary Anton who panics ---- 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
I remember this, yes? 18A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
--- at this thing, so that is the one account which is 19there. The second account is about the use of ---- 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
Because they are taken off the train and sent in to be 21washed, am I right? 22A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes, and she gets very nervous about that. 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
She says, "Oh, my God, they are going to gas us"? 24A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No, "to kill us", not "gas us"; and those facilities 25existed, some of them at the border and also they existed 26in the harbours of Bremen and Hamburg.

. P-140

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
When was that? Roughly what year was that? 2A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
This was 1880s, 1890s. 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
So it has been a problem over the decades, there has been 4a problem in that region? 5A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I mean, the German ---- 6Q.
[Mr Irving]
It is a very swampy region, is it? 7A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No, I mean, but this was happening all over the East, that 8people who were, that Jews, migrants who were leaving the 9Russian Empire were subjected to German hygienic measures 10as they crossed the border or came into the harbours of 11Bremen and Hamburg where they were placed in quarantine. 12There were special areas of the harbour where these Jews 13were quarantined. There were these kinds of 14installations. However, Auschwitz was slightly different 15because while Auschwitz, at the one side, had these 16transmigrants who went over the border there, because it 17was a border town, the camp was not created with that in 18mind. The camp was created, the Sturmlager was created to 19very specifically house transmigrant workers who all 20converged on Auschwitz in March and April of every year 21looking for seasonal work in Germany. There were only 22three little hotels in the town, and the hotels said these 23people were living on the street, and there were 10 or 2415,000 people living on the street. 25 So, the Austrian Government decided to create a 26centre at the border where these people could be housed

. P-141

1and where then also German agents for the various 2employment opportunities, like the Jungkris(?) in the 3estates, could come, send people on and then the most 4important function there was to actually check if all the 5young men had done their military service and were allowed 6to leave the country. 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
And that was Auschwitz, right? 8A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
That was in Auschwitz. 9Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. Just to round off this topic of the Zyklon 10consumption figures, you have done very interesting 11calculations, and I have to admit they are admirably done, 12the calculations. You arrive overall at the end of these 13very lengthy and complicated calculations at a probable 14consumption of nine tonnes? 15A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Nine tonnes in the camp in 1943, yes. 16Q.
[Mr Irving]
As opposed to the 12 tonnes that we know to have been 17delivered. Is this a meaningful difference, in your view, 18in view of the fact that you are totally inexperienced in 19pest control? 20A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I invite other people to redo the calculations again. 21I thought that, as far as an historian, I must say that 22using the maximum delousing capacity of the camp and the 23maximum -- and how much it will take on the basis of 24German documents to delouse the whole camp ---- 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
Does it make any allowance for inefficiencies of any 26measures anywhere? Does it make your usual engineer's

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1allowance for inefficiencies somewhere or mistakes? 2A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I think that I have made a very generous assumption in the 3amount of Zyklon-B which was being used. 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
Or for quantities being sent on to the satellite camps? 5These are things which you did not -- in my submission, 6there is no significant difference statistically over that 7range of calculations and figures and, given the 8uncertainty of the starting points between nine tonnes and 912 tonnes, on the one hand, is that correct? 10A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Nine tonnes can be justified, but it is a very high number 11because I am assuming two complete delousings of the camp, 12of all the buildings in the camp, per year. 13Q.
[Mr Irving]
If you had assumed three, of course, you would have come 14over 12 tonnes, would you not? 15A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No, I would come over nine tonnes. 16Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. You said you were just assuming two? 17A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Not over 12 tonnes. But at a certain moment the question 18is how many delousings of the whole camp were operated. 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
We just have two eyewitnesses, is this correct, who 20suggests that -- one of them was one of the eyewitnesses 21to whom, I have to say, I attach little credence and the 22other one I may or may not be correct in saying she only 23records three or four, is that correct, in the time ---- 24A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
During her whole time in the camp. 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
--- during the whole time she was there? But against 26that, we set the evidence of Bruno Tesch in his trial, and

. P-143

1he is the acknowledged leading German expert on 2disinfestation who says, having been given the figures, he 3is astonished that they managed to carry out the 4fumigation of all these sets of clothing, given the number 5of prisoners, because he knew how many kilograms of 6Zyklon-B were needed for each 100 sets of clothing. That 7is the calculation he did. 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is that Tesch you are talking about now? 9MR IRVING: I am talking about Bruno Tesch, T-E-S-C-H. 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: May I ask Professor van Pelt a question about 11that? The prosecution against Tesch, presumably, involved 12the prosecution establishing that he knew what the 13Zyklon-B was being supplied to Auschwitz for? 14A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. 15Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
So he was likely to say that the quantity was the right 16amount to do the delousing? 17A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
The case, the evidence on which Tesch was ultimately 18convicted was not the quantity delivered to Auschwitz. It 19was actually a statement made by one of his employees who 20had said that Tesch knew about that what the Zyklon was 21being used for. 22MR IRVING: He said that he came back and he dictated a travel 23report on a trip which had indicated that he knew what was 24going on? 25A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
This was hotly disputed by other members of Tesch's staff

. P-144

1who knew the travel reports concerned, but he was hanged 2on the basis of that one witness? 3A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
You know, I do not want to redo the Tesh trial. I mean, 4it may have been true that Tesch knew about it or it may 5not have been true. But the issue was, the issue at stake 6in the trial was not the quantity of the deliveries. 7 Interestingly enough, if you go back to the 8trial documents, what really made people very, very upset 9about it is the profit they got out of the deliveries. 10There was constant talk about how many Reichs Marks 11actually were made out of his deliveries to Auschwitz. 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
I appreciate your Lordship's point and, of course, it is 13absolutely right, he would have had a motive for trying to 14minimize it, but against that is to be set the fact that 15whereas you and I are, no doubt, astonished to see nine 16tonnes of cyanide being delivered to any camp or any 17place, and you think, "Well, this can only mean one 18thing", the drift of my argument has been it could mean 19many things and it was by no means out of the ball park 20when you are looking at the other uses to which this 21domestic fumigant was very properly put. 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I understand. 23MR IRVING: Can I now proceed to a different topic, my Lord? 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, of course. 25MR IRVING: We have dealt with the eyewitness in some detail, 26Professor van Pelt. I must say I am left unhappy at the

. P-145

1notion that so far the mass extermination of 500,000 2victims in this building here, krammer No. 2, rests, 3apparently, on a number of very shaky eyewitnesses -- 4I think I have shaken two or three them -- and on certain 5other documents that we have not really properly 6explored. 7 Can you talk to the court, please, if I say to 8you what architectural drawings are there relating to 9crematorium No. (ii) and, in particular, to the alleged 10gas chamber in mortuary No. 1, can you tell the court 11about which one document in particular would be the one 12you would say was something close to a smoking gun -- if 13there is such a document, such a blueprint? 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do you mean Kuhler? Is he included in the 15question? 16MR IRVING: Kuhler we can come to later, my Lord. I am 17interested in Kuhler, obviously, because that will bring 18us back to the holes, and I am going to keep on driving 19holes in this case until your Lordship appreciates the 20significance of the holes, or their absence. So I want to 21do that kind of scattered throughout these two days. 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. 23THE WITNESS: So we are talking about blueprints? 24MR IRVING: We are talking about drawings, architectural 25drawings. If there is anything in any of those drawings 26which you considered to be very suspicious?

. P-146

1A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I have said in my report that the way the materials should 2be interpreted is as a convergence of evidence and not in 3terms of a single smoking gun. There are in the documents 4in Auschwitz, of course, documents which are more 5difficult to bring into harmony with the thesis that there 6would have been no gas chamber, no homicidal gas chamber, 7in crematorium (ii). For example, there is a letter, the 8notorious vergasungs letter, the keller letter of 29th 9January 1943; but since I am being asked about blueprints 10and I will limit my answer to blueprints, there is not one 11blueprint which by and in itself is a smoking gun. 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
But you have repeatedly talked in radio programmes on the 13BBC, for example, the Horizon programme, you said, "We 14have the blue prints", have you not? "We have the 15drawings"? I appreciate ---- 16A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
But we have to -- we have the blueprints as historical 17evidence and one can draw conclusions out of the 18historical evidence. 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
That is not the way you put it, of course. You were 20rather more specific. You said: "We have the drawings of 21the gas chambers". 22A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
But it allows us, these drawings allow us to reconstruct 23the history of these things, the way these things were 24constructed, and the history includes a certain amount the 25history of the use and the modification of these buildings 26as a killing machine.

. P-147

1 Now, there are certain drawings which certainly 2pop out of the bundle of drawings which is preserved. For 3example, a very, very important drawing, but again only 4seen in context, would have been the modification of the 5basement done by Walter Dejaco in December 1942. But 6again that drawing by itself does not say anything. That 7drawing has to be compared to the drawings that preceded 8that drawing. 9 So, you know, I am happy to go -- the problem is 10I do not know if everyone has the drawings -- I am happy 11to go through a very detailed explication of those 12drawings, but given the fact we already have difficulty 13with Olaire before, I do not really know to do that 14because I will have to point at these things which are not 15labelled and these are, you know, those blueprints 16are ---- 17MR IRVING: We can get the drift of what your arguments are 18going to be. I just wanted to establish, though, that 19when you said these things on this BBC Horizon programme 20(of which we have the transcript here) of course, you are 21not reading from a script, you are just talking from 22memory, so to speak? If you were writing it, you would 23not have said that? 24A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No, there was no script of that. There was no script. 25I do not exactly know what I said, so maybe you can read 26it to the court and I can have a look at it and, you know,

. P-148

1I can comment on it. 2Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. But the point I am making is that you are much more 3careful when you write than when you speak? 4A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
There is nothing really in the Horizon programme which at 5the moment I feel I would have to take back. I am quite 6comfortable with what I said in that programme. 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
Well, except that you also referred to a document, but 8I am not on documents at present in terms which were 9inappropriate because it turns out that what you said was 10not borne out by the document. Do you remember that 11document, the one relating to the electric supply not 12being adequate, and you reversed the order of killing and 13cremating? 14A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Mr Irving, in that document at a certain moment 15I transposed the word, I think, sonderbehantlung(?) and 16incineration from one to the other. 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, these things happen, do they not? 18A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
But the meaning, the meaning of what I said is exactly the 19same as the meaning of the document. 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. These things happen. It was not any perverse 21manipulation of the evidence in any way; it was just ---- 22A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Unlike what some people on the web suggest? No, it was no 23perverse manipulation. 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
I have not suggested that, have I ---- 25A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I do not know if you have suggested it. 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
--- on my web site, no? That is not the point I am trying

. P-149

1to make. 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: If that is not suggested, we can move on, 3can we not? 4MR IRVING: I am your Lordship appreciates the reason why I put 5the question. So what you are saying is there is no one 6drawing -- we have established that the eye witness 7evidence is two legged rather than five legged. We have 8now heard that there is no one drawing which supports the 9identity of that underground mortuary as being a gas 10chamber either? 11A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No, but we can look now at two or three drawings together 12and then we start to look, we start to observe some very 13weird things and some modifications made between one 14drawing and the other drawing which certainly starts to 15point out at a use of ---- 16Q.
[Mr Irving]
An unusual use? 17A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
--- morgue No. 1 which is used which is certainly not 18suggestive of either an air raid shelter or that of any 19other kind of non-genocidal use. 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
Can you tell us roughly what those discrepancies are on -- 21shall I feed clues? 22 MR RAMPTON: My Lord, I hardly think this is satisfactory. We 23have the plans in the folder. 24MR IRVING: Indeed, yes. 25 MR RAMPTON: It is quite a detailed exercise. I have been 26through it many times. It may or may not make sense, but

. P-150

1it is really ridiculous, in my submission, to ask this 2witness to try to do it ---- 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: You mean there is no such -- it is either the 4whole hog or nothing? 5 MR RAMPTON: Yes. You cannot do that from memory. 6MR IRVING: I am all for the whole hog in this case. Let us go 7the whole hog, but I thought that the Professor was saying 8it would be rather difficult to do this exercise in court 9with things as tricky as detailed drawings. 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, he was saying that, but if we have to 11do it, we have to do. 12MR IRVING: Yes. But if Mr Rampton objects, then by all means 13let us look at the individual drawings. 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: But let me get this clear, Mr Irving, first: 15we will go through the drawings, by all means, but ---- 16MR IRVING: Well, my Lord, I ---- 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- there is going to be no profit in doing 18so if, at the end of the day, you are going to put to 19Professor van Pelt, "Oh, well, that is all very well, but 20it was just a delousing chamber or disinfecting chamber". 21So I do not want to spend a lot of time and in the end for 22it to be in a sense purposeless. Do you follow me? 23MR IRVING: I agree, but your Lordship has heard the witness 24say that there are two or three specific things about the 25drawings which, when put together, can only lead to the 26sinister interpretation. I think I know what he is

. P-151

1alluding to. 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, well, I am looking at one, the following 3page 183 in your report ---- 4MR IRVING: I do not want to preempt him. 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- and I suspect that may be one of the ones, 6with the small holes along the top and bottom of the side 7walls. 8MR IRVING: If your Lordship feels this is inappropriate that 9we should continue on this? 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, well, I am in the difficulty, Mr Irving, 11as you will understand, I do not quite know that I know 12what the point that is going to be made is. 13 MR RAMPTON: My Lord, let me say straight ---- 14 MR RAMPTON: My Lord, may I make an intervention now? 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: We had better not all talk at once. 16 MR RAMPTON: No, I know, but I have foreseen this for 17sometime. I really think Mr Irving has to state his 18position now because otherwise, as your Lordship has just 19said, we could spend two hours going through the drawings 20and end up with the same conclusion as yesterday in 21cross-examination, "Yes, it was a gas chamber, but not for 22live human beings". 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is why I said what I said. 24 MR RAMPTON: If that is all that this examination is going to 25lead to, Mr Irving may as well come clean, say, "Yes, 26I accept it was a gas chamber. Now, Mr Van Pelt, how do

. P-152

1you deal with the suggestion that was for gassing corpses 2and clothes?" 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, I mean, that is the point that I 4have just put to you, Mr Irving. Can you tell us what the 5answer is? 6MR IRVING: I appreciate that Mr Rampton would prefer to 7conduct my cross-examination for me. 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: Just answer my question. 9MR IRVING: I will come clean and say precisely what points 10I am going for. Professor van Pelt has suggested that, 11because in one of the drawings there is a requirement for 12the vorwarmung or prewarming of the mortuary. This has a 13sinister connotation. Am I right, Professor? 14A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
This is not there was drawing. This is there was letter, 15so I did not in any of my discussion, when you asked me 16about drawings right now, include that particular 17document. I said I was specifically talking about 18drawings. 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
While we are on that document, can you tell me how 20important is that letter and how much reliance would you 21place on that as being halfway to the smoking gun? 22A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I do not know if I should answer this right now since 23another question was posed. 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is your answer because I am going to go back, 25that it is part of the convergent evidence? Is that how 26you put it?

. P-153

1A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
It is an important part of convergent evidence, yes. 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let's go back, Mr Irving. I am going to 3insist that we get this clear and then we know where we 4are going. 5MR IRVING: May I return to the prewarming later on, my Lord? 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: Of course you can return to it later on. 7What is your position going to be? Supposing that the 8evidence satisfies me that there is reason to believe that 9this was intended to be there was gas chamber and not an 10air raid shelter, is that something you accept or 11dispute? 12MR IRVING: It should be, with respect, my Lord, relatively 13easy for the witness to say there are two or three items, 14as he in fact said, which were to him, taken in 15conjunction with each other, adequate evidence that there 16was a sinister purpose. 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is as may be, but I would like an answer 18to my question because I think you must come clean as to 19your position. 20MR IRVING: I do not think I am equivocating. My position on 21this particular room is that it was never used in there 22was gas chamber sense, in the sense described by the 23eyewitnesses because of course the lack of holes proves 24that the eyewitnesses have lied. 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is getting close to an answer but it is 26not quite an answer. Are you accepting it was a gas

. P-154

1chamber in the sense that it had the facility for gas to 2be inserted by whatever means, but contending that humans 3were never killed by gas in that chamber? 4MR IRVING: Certainly on one occasion it was referred to as a 5Vergasungskeller and also referred to as a sonderkeller, a 6special cellar or special basement. That I also accept. 7What I do not accept is that it was going to be used for 8the mass killing of human beings by gas. This is a very 9clear statement. What I do postulate is that it was also 10simultaneously being held in prospect and even converted 11for use as an underground air raid shelter, being one of 12the very few subterranean buildings on the site in the 13event that mass attacks in this part of Poland also began, 14given the proximity of the IG Farben works. 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sure I missed it, but was part of that 16answer that yes, you do accept that it was there was gas 17chamber and that you accept that it was on occasion used 18for killing human beings? 19MR IRVING: I accepted it was referred to as there was gas 20chamber, my Lord, which is not quite the same thing and 21there are documents ---- 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: Are you accepting it was in fact there was 23gas chamber? 24MR IRVING: That I have not seen evidence for. 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: So you are not accepting that? 26MR IRVING: I am not accepting that part of the statement

. P-155

1because I have not seen any evidence that bears that part 2of the statement out. I have seen evidence that it was 3referred to by the German authorities as there was 4Vergasungskeller, there was room for gassing in. 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: But you still do not accept that it was in 6fact there was gas chamber? Is that the position? 7MR IRVING: That is precisely my position, my Lord. 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: Then we go through the drawings. 9MR IRVING: The drawings, but only in respect to elucidating 10this point. You said that you had two or three matters in 11the drawings which you thought would bear out this 12contention? 13A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I am just trying to make up my mind how to do this. We 14are going to go through there was complex exercise in 15which I have now to make up my mind how to work most 16effectively through this. 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: Just think. Do you want to adjourn for five 18minutes? 19MR IRVING: Alternatively, we could come back to this question 20on Friday, my Lord, which would give one whole day to look 21at the drawings and I could move on to the prewarming 22question, which is the next one logically. I would prefer 23to do that, frankly. 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think, since we have reached the point of 25the drawings and we have just had that exchange, I would 26slightly prefer to do it now.

. P-156

1A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
May I ask something? There are some ways this could be 2helpful because I am not completely unprepared for this 3thing. I have two ex students of mine make on the basis 4of all the blueprints there was computer model of 5crematorium No. (ii). This is only on the basis of the 6blueprints and whatever is added is very clear. For 7example, the only thing which is added are the Zyklon-B 8introduction columns which are clearly not in the 9blueprints, and there was speculative depiction in one of 10them of how the hot air system would have worked. This is 11all prepared. I have slides of this whole reconstruction 12by which we can actually translate the blueprints into 13something which laymen in architecture can read. I have 14them also as pictures that were printed out. 15 On Friday, with always the blueprint right next 16to it, I could give there was complete presentation of 17this building to show the important things which would 18maybe help your Lordship to get quicker into the gist of 19things. It is something I am prepared to do. I can do it 20without it, but it will be more of there was struggle to 21do without it. 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, do you have any objection to that 23being done as an exercise? 24 MR RAMPTON: That is what I would have proposed, my Lord. 25Given what I would submit is the relative collapse of the 26eyewitness evidence in relation to this building ----

. P-157

1MR JUSTICE GRAY: Just answer the question. Do not worry about 2the eyewitness evidence. 3MR IRVING: Then the answer is yes I think it would be very 4fair to Professor van Pelt. 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: We will do that on Friday. 6A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
In forms of slides or with the pictures? 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: Whichever is easier. Mr Irving is happy you 8should do it, so you do it in whichever way is the more 9informative for the court. 10A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I would like to do it then in slide form since it is a 11more public thing and I can point at things on the screen 12and it is always clear to what I am pointing. 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: If you are happy with that, Mr Irving? 14MR IRVING: Provided it goes strictly to the issues that we 15have delineated. The Professor said that there were there 16was number of points which, taken in conjunction, 17substantiate his beliefs and we do not just have a general 18cook's tour of the building. 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: No. This is designed to show that the 20blueprints have pointers within them which suggest the use 21of that chamber was as there was gas chamber. 22A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. 23MR IRVING: That can only be there was useful exercise. So we 24will leave the drawings for the moment, Professor, and we 25will continue just briefly with the documentary evidence. 26 MR RAMPTON: My Lord, again, I am puzzled. Mr Irving seems to

. P-158

1be under the impression that there were only two relevant 2eyewitness accounts so far as this witness is concerned. 3I am there was bit bothered by that. I could come back to 4it in re-examination but I think there may be a 5misunderstanding -- Mr Irving said it several times -- 6between Mr Professor van Pelt and Mr Irving. 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think Professor van Pelt has identified 8five camp officials. I think we all know that there are 9others. 10 MR RAMPTON: Yes. 11MR IRVING: These are the five principal ones on which he rests 12his case as far as the eyewitness are concerned and I do 13apologise if I gave the impression that I had only 14demolished two of them. 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us leave the debating points on one side 16and press on with the cross-examination croaks. 17MR IRVING: Professor van Pelt, prewarming of the mortuary. 18You have rightly raised your eyebrows on that and said 19this surely has there was sinister purpose. Have 20I summarized your position correctly? 21A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Shall we get the document maybe? It is in the bundle. 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: K 2. 24 MR RAMPTON: Yes, tab 4 of K 2. 25 MR RAMPTON: It is page 39, my Lord, in the handwriting. 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you.

. P-159

1MR IRVING: This is there was letter from Auschwitz to the Topf 2company, is it not? 3A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. It is there was letter sent on 6th March 1943, which 4is a little over there was week before the building is 5really taken into use. 6Q.
[Mr Irving]
Would you like to translate the first paragraph, or shall 7I? On the basis of your proposal this agency or this 8office is in agreement that the basement No. 1, this is 9the mortuary No. 1 with the collapsed roof, is that 10correct? 11A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
Should be prewarmed with the exhaust air from the spaces 13of the three extractor fans. Would that be correct? 14A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. Probably it is there was forced draft, yes. 15Q.
[Mr Irving]
They are going to have some kind of heat exchanger so that 16they can take heat from the furnaces in some way? 17A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. I can explain very simply what happens is that the 18ovens are connected to the chimney -- this was Topf's 19idea -- in order to get there was better draft from the 20ovens to the chimney, they thought to actually -- there 21are five ovens and then there is the waste incineration 22oven which was never built, to have one ventilator at 23every two ovens which was going to basically suck the 24smoke out of the oven into the chimney to put there was 25ventilator there. These ventilators were placed in small 26rooms. The idea is that of course there is going to be an

. P-160

1incredible heat built up in these ventilators because the 2smoke is very hot, that you could regenerate, and there 3were other plans also, that heat. This particular 4proposal is to use the heat built up in these little rooms 5in which the ventilators are, to bring that back into 6morgue number 1. 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
There was lot of the documents in fact do indicate there 8was desire to conserve energy, do they not? To extract 9the energy from the incineration plant and this kind of 10thing, use it for boiling water for the showers and so 11on? Am I right? 12A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. There are there some proposals. 13Q.
[Mr Irving]
What concerns you about the prewarming? Why should this 14room not be prewarmed, the mortuary? 15A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
What concerns me of course is that one would want to keep 16the morgue cool, and that to actually blow hot air into 17there was morgue does not make much sense if the space is 18going to be used as a morgue. 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
Is this your considered opinion as an architect, or as an 20historian, or as an archeologist? 21A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
As there was person who has common sense. 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
Bodies are cold, so why bother to warm them? Is that 23roughly it? 24A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
This is one of the reasons. You see, the practice in 25Auschwitz was that one has these underground gas chambers 26which are well insulated because they are covered with

. P-161

1earth, and that in these spaces there is there was more or 2less even temperature, as it was mostly in basements, and 3you get there was cool environment in which you store the 4bodies, and the bodies will not further deteriorate, or 5faster than necessary. 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: I suppose also one might say what is the 7point of warming the room if the people in there are going 8to be murdered and then they are going to be burnt? 9MR IRVING: My Lord, shortly all will be revealed. 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let me get the answer first. 11A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
The reason that this is problematic is that Zyklon-B, 12sorry hydrogen cyanide, will evaporate faster the warmer 13the room is. 14MR IRVING: Right. 15A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
So the killing of people in that room would be faster. 16MR IRVING: It is common sense that you would not want to warm 17a mortuary? 18A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
May I add something to this remark? It is not necessary. 19Even freezing temperatures you can just spread Zyklon B on 20the floor of a building and it will evaporate, but it goes 21slower. One of the particular elements of the standard 22Degesch delousing chamber, the ten cubic metre one, was 23that they could also be supplied not necessarily, but 24could be supplied with there was particular little heating 25element which was more or less like there was hair blow 26drier, and that the Zyklon-B tin was placed in the kind of

. P-162

1holder. Then from the outside there was there was tin 2opener, and then, as the Zyklon fell, it came down on 3there was little dish and this hot air was being blown 4over that dish. So the evaporation would be faster. 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
All very interesting, but assuming that the homicidal 6theory is correct, you are going to have 2,000 human 7beings stuffed into this room and, as we know from the 8design of the Millennium Dome, human beings heat up 9spaces. They does not need heaters, do they? 10A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
That was the experience in Auschwitz. Throughout the 11winter of 1942 they were gassing in bunker No. 2 and they 12did not need any heating. 13Q.
[Mr Irving]
We are not dealing with that. We are dealing with this 14particular bunker at present and the answer is, in other 15words, if your theory was correct, they would not need the 16heating. But that is not the particular path I am going 17down. 18A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
May I comment on this? 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes of course. 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: Briefly. 21A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
The issue seems to be that we are talking here about 22making the process more efficient. 23MR IRVING: Speeding it up? 24A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Speeding it up. 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
In and out rapidly? 26A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes.

. P-163

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
This building was a very expensive building, was it not? 2A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes, I think the budget around was 280,000/300,000 marks. 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
It is far more expensive to build underground rooms of any 4kind, is it not, than to build the same room above ground? 5A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
It depends of course what room we are talking about, but 6you need to do excavation in general for a building. 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
It needs special tanking, does it not, and special 8drainage provisions and all sorts of special -- it roughly 9increases the price by four or five fold to have the same 10things sunk into the ground. Am I right? 11A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Again, it is quite often difficult to build there was room 12above the ground than building under the ground, but of 13course you need to have some vapour barriers and other 14things. You need to keep the water out. I presume that, 15if one would build that room above the ground without any 16basement under, without any normal foundation there, it 17would probably be cheaper to build it above the ground. 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
So the Nazis had some reason for building these two 19chambers underground rather than at ground level? 20A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
The reason that they were built underground is because 21they were morgues. You see, the big problem was that, if 22you built a large crematorium as crematorium (ii), you get 23an incredible heat built up in the incineration room. So 24one of the things you have to do is to have the morgue at 25some distance from that. 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
And at right angles and so on, yes.

. P-164

1A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
The second thing is that the incinerators are very heavy, 2which means you cannot have a basement under the 3incinerators. So, if you want to have a morgue and you 4want to have preferably in a basement because there are 5less temperature differences in the basement, it is a more 6stable temperature environment, then of course you build 7them underground and not under the incineration room. It 8is the reason that these two morgues jut out from the 9building. 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
Hold it there for a moment, Professor. The building was 11built to the best building specifications. Because they 12were the SS, they were not able to wangle their way round 13the local building inspector, were they? They had to 14comply with the local building regulations? 15A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
For crematorium (ii), which was designed in 41 and it was 16designed in Berlin, it was there was design which 17ultimately came down to Auschwitz. Crematorium (ii) in 18relationship to the major elements of there was morgue did 19follow the rules. 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
They would not be allowed to start this building up. They 21would not be allowed to operate it for whatever purpose it 22was operated unless it had passed all the regulations, 23unless it complied with all the regulations. Even though 24they were the SS, and this was Auschwitz, and this was 25wartime, they still had to go by the book. They still had 26to comply with the red tape..

. P-165

1A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
They went by the book. One of the things is that one 2always can get exemptions, like in any planning regulation 3you can always have a variance to the particular code but 4you have to apply for it. 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
Professor van Pelt, we are talking about going by the 6book. Is this the book that they would have gone by? 7A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
This is not a building code of Germany, but this is there 8was design guideline which was available in the office, 9except in an earlier edition. This is the 1944 edition. 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
There is book called Neufert, which is still the standard 11German building code, is it not? 12A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
It is not there was building code. It is a guideline to 13architects of how to design, which means that, if you 14start a project and you want to know how large a minimum 15kitchen must be in which two people can still pass each 16other, you find the dimensions there. 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
It is very useful indeed and it is going to be useful for 18the rest for the rest of the afternoon because, if we look 19in this guideline book as you call it to see what the 20architects at Auschwitz were being told was the correct 21way to design, that answers quite there was lot of the 22questions that have arisen, does it not? 23A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
There is going to be something of there was problem 24because again, first of all, we are dealing with general 25guidelines and the general guidelines in Neufert only deal 26with there was civilian crematorium to be built in there

. P-166

1was city and it does not deal with there was crematorium 2designed either for specific circumstances outside the 3civilian context. 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
But the basic principles of design are going to be same, 5are they not? 6A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
On some elements they will and on some elements they will 7not. There are some things which you need in a civilian 8crematorium which you will not need in one which 9ultimately is going to be built and which will not be 10ruled by the building code. 11Q.
[Mr Irving]
But most people who went into SS uniform and worked in 12these offices were architects or engineers in civil life 13like Kammler. He was an engineer and they just happened 14to be wearing SS uniform. They knew what the rules were 15and they knew the codes. 16A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I object to your use of the words, the rules and the 17codes. Neufert is not the code. Neufert is a general 18guideline created by one architect to help other 19architects to get going on the job. 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
Will you tell the court if there was a copy of Neufert in 21the SS construction office at Auschwitz? 22A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
There was a copy of Neufert in the SS construction office. 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
Why did they have that if they did not feel that it was a 24good idea to follow what Neufert's guidelines were? 25A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Neufert has a lot of very useful information. I am very 26happy to go with you through the diagram which Neufert

. P-167

1provides for the civilian crematorium. 2Q.
[Mr Irving]
It is not the diagrams I am looking at. Would you turn to 3page 271 of your copy of Neufert, if you have it there? 4A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. I do not know if the judge has a copy? 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I do not. 6MR IRVING: I will translate it or Professor van Pelt can 7translate the appropriate paragraph if your Lordship 8permits. Does your Lordship consider it to be a useful 9line? 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not know what the points that you are 11going to make are. 12A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
271. 13MR IRVING: Your Lordship will remember we are dealing with the 14question whether the warming of a mortuary was appropriate 15or not, which I have to confess I, with all my common 16sense, would have thought completely absurd. If you look 17at the part where it comes to friedhurf und crematorium, 18that is the right hand page, which means crematoria and 19graveyards. 20A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Graveyards and crematoria. You make the same mistake now 21as I made in the horizon movie, Mr Irving. 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
The third paragraph down begins (German spoken - document 23not provided). 24A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
The temperature in the mortuary to be above or equal to 26two degrees and below or equal to 12 degrees, never under,

. P-168

1because frost causes the corpses to expand and burst. 2A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
Then it continues to talk about using the ---- 4A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Let us go to the next sentence. 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
-- central heating? 6A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Let us go to the next sentence now because the next 7sentence is also important. (German spoken - document not 8provided) which means ---- 9Q.
[Mr Irving]
Central heating? 10A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Not the central heating. 11Q.
[Mr Irving]
Central heating and cooling, air conditioning? 12A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
And air conditioning, yes. This temperature must be kept 13---- 14Q.
[Mr Irving]
Above all in summer. 15A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
-- must be kept steady with constant ventilation, 16especially in the summer. 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
We are not concerned with summer here. We are talking 18about Poland, which gets notoriously cold in the winter. 19A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
The point which is here is that the next sentence says 20there should be at a certain moment in this case some 21heating and cooling installation in this building, yes. 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 23A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I will leave it to you. You will spring another trap on 24me right now and then I will try to answer it. 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
No. This is not a trap. We are trying to educate the 26court. I have to admit that I have learned a lot out of

. P-169

1Neufert as I went along as well. But I think I have made 2the point that the provision of heating in a mortuary is a 3requirement, at least by the guidelines which were 4standard in all German architects' offices at that time, 5and no special significance can be read into the fact that 6they were trying to it in a cost effective way by using 7heat from the incinerators. 8A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
If that were to be the case, the heating installation 9would have been included in the original design of the 10crematorium. It is not. What actually it says here is 11why, why do you want to be able to keep the temperature of 12the morgue in that range of 2 to 12 degrees? It is 13because the corpses still have to be viewed by the people 14who are basically the family members. If we look at the 15diagram, I am very sorry, my Lord. I have a diagram and 16you do not, but there is actually a diagram which shows 17that there is a Leichenshauraum, which means a room to 18show or to look at the corpse. So this is a very usual 19thing in a crematorium. The body is stored. It happened 20to us very recently in my family. You go and before the 21final cremation you still have an opportunity to look at 22the corpse. You do not want to look at the corpse where 23ultimately frost has destroyed the corpse. This is the 24purpose for that particular thing. It has nothing to do 25with the mechanics or the physics of incineration. It has 26to do with a certain sense of decorum.

. P-170

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
The fact remains, does it not, that the guidelines say 2mortuaries have to be warmed and they are going to have 3the local building inspector from Kattowitz or Cracow 4coming round and he is going to say, ' Oy, you have not 5got heating in here, cannot switch on until you have the 6heating fixed"? 7A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
The fact of the matter, my Lord, is that these are merely 8guidelines. If the guidelines in Neufert had been 9followed by the Auschwitz central building office, they 10would have included the heating for the heating system and 11also probably the cooling system for the morgue from the 12beginning in the design. This has not been done. For a 13year and a half this design has been developed without any 14ability whatsoever to bring any heat in that morgue so it 15is absolutely, I think, nonsense to suggest that, with 16this Neufert in mind, the Auschwitz architects were 17designing their morgues. 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: By March 1943 how far advanced was the 19construction of crematoria (ii) and (iii)? 20A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
The building was finished and the design started in 21October 1941. 22MR IRVING: They could not switch it on because they had not 23made provision for the heating at this point. 24A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
They had forgotten it, but the inspector in Kattowitz 25obviously had also overlooked this one issue. 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
But the burden of the letter of course says this is a very

. P-171

1cost effective way of doing the heating. It is not saying 2you have forgotten the heating, it is saying let's do it 3by this way because that is going to save the Reich money 4or fuel or whatever. 5A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Please, Mr Irving, show me any other letter. I have never 6seen one. I am under oath, I understand, here. I have 7never seen any other letter talking about bringing any 8heating, any hot air, or any other means of heating into 9the morgue. 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
But fact remains that mortuaries have to be warmed, so our 11common sense for once is wrong. The audience is wrong in 12this particular question. The book gets it right. The 13book says it has to be kept in a range of temperatures 14between 2 degrees and 12 degrees, either by heating or by 15cooling. 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: What about crematoria 4 and 5? Was there any 17heating provided for that? 18A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
There were stoves in crematoria 4 and 5. 19Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
That was how they heated them? 20A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes, no cooling installation. 21MR IRVING: Would you now turn to page 255, please? We have 22now left the heating element. 23A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Sorry, my Lord, I would like to come back to this answer 24because I have made a mistake. The "them" you refer to 25were probably morgues. I refer to the gas chambers of 26crematoria 4 and 5.

. P-172

1MR JUSTICE GRAY: I was referring to the morgues or the 2mortuaries, yes. Did they have any heating? 3A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
There was a mortuary in crematoria 4 and 5 and they did 4not have any heating. 5MR IRVING: Will you now turn to page 255 of the architects 6guidelines? 7A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. 8Q.
[Mr Irving]
This shows halfway down on the right things that are 9needed for air raid shelters. Does this show a door 10opening outwards? Can you see the metal gas tight door 11with the typical heavy handles? 12A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Can you refer me to the particular passage? 13Q.
[Mr Irving]
Page 255, on the page called Luftshutz air raid protection 14ARP, and it has various sketched layouts of air raid 15shelters and various air raid protection installations. 16I am sorry, my Lord, I should have provided you with a 17copy. 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am following. 19MR IRVING: Do you agree that that shows a steel door or a door 20of some heavy substance designed to open outwards with 21handles on the outside? 22A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I do not see any steel door. That is the problem. Oh 23there is a door. 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. Two of them? 25A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. That is one. 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
(German spoken - document not provided) 4104. They

. P-173

1actually had a German standard, the equivalent of British 2standard, what a standard gas tight door looked like. I 3will make an enlargement of this and provide it to your 4Lordship because it is exactly like the doors that 5I believe the other side will produce pictures of. 6A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
OK. It is unclear to see what is in and out in this 7drawing. To be very honest, if this door is hung on the 8inside -- again it is a very technical matter and I am 9uncomfortable discussing this without you actually seeing 10the picture. 11 MR RAMPTON: I am also a bit uncomfortable trying to follow a 12cross-examination when I do not have the document. 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: I know, but let us try and do the best we 14can? 15A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Shall I draw what actually the picture shows and then I 16think we have a very quick answer. 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: You are saying that the drawing is equivocal 18about whether it opens inwards or outwards? 19A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No. It shows that this door actually turns towards the 20inside and there is a very easy way to substantiate that. 21MR IRVING: Do you wish to explain why. 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. If you want to, yes, do. 23A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
The door is on the inside of the wall, so there is a wall 24and the question is where would the door be hung. I am 25trying to think this through. 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: I cannot see that that would affect which way

. P-174

1it opened, but maybe I am missing something. 2A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
May I draw it? 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, of course. 4A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I have in my bag a lot of air raid shelter designs in 5Auschwitz. So there is a wall right here. There is a 6wall right there, and then the door is hung sitting right 7here, and the door is like that. The implication of 8course is that the door opens like that. 9MR IRVING: It is not going to open any other way. 10A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No. 11Q.
[Mr Irving]
It is going to come up against---- 12A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I just want to say that I am talking here, just trying to 13think out loud. I do not have anything more right now 14about it. 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think I know what you are going to say 16next. 17A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I have not seen this door and I have not inspected this 18particular shelter, but if indeed the door is fastened 19right here and right there, it would make sense to me to 20think that, if the hinges are right there, the hinges 21would be on the inside, not on the outside because, if 22they are on the outside, it would be easy to blast them 23off. That is all I can say right now if you want to 24determine what is inside and outside. I do not want to 25make any more specific statements on this. But we can 26look at documentation on doors and air raid shelter design

. P-175

1in Auschwitz and I am happy to do that to the court. 2MR IRVING: That is the actual copy. I have marked it with an 3arrow, my Lord. You will see the door rests on rims on 4the outside of the wall. 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I see. 6MR IRVING: I did alert the defence to the fact that I was 7going to take an interest in Neufert and I enquired 8whether Professor van Pelt had a copy of Neufert. I am 9sorry, I did not alert them to the specific matters that 10I was going to raise. Finally, is there anything further 11you wish to say on the subject? 12A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No. I think it is very difficult to come to any 13conclusion right now on the basis of that drawing. 14Q.
[Mr Irving]
But common sense suggests that, if you have 4,000 pound 15bombs blasting outside a building, you do not want a door 16that is going to come flying open into your face? 17A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I do not know. It is common sense that you do not want, 18if a building collapses and collapses over the air raid 19shelter, you do not want all the brick and rubble to be 20right in front of the door so you can never open the 21door. So you are inside there without able to leave. 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
Can I now in general ask you by what means the corpses 23were taken out of the gas chamber upstairs to the level 24where the furnaces were? 25A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
In crematorium (ii)? 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
In crematorium (ii) I am only interested in crematorium

. P-176

1(ii). 2A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I just have to redirect my mind. 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
I am only interested in crematorium (ii) because that is 4where you said this was where the 500,000 people were 5killed. You called this the centre of the atrocity. 6A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
They were brought up by elevator. 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
They were carried up by elevator. It is difficult to say 8where it was, I suppose, is it not? 9A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No it is actually quite easy. The elevator is right 10here. Actually the pit is still there. 11Q.
[Mr Irving]
The pit is still there? Do you know anything about the 12dimensions of the elevator shaft? 13A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
It would be a little over, I would say, 2 metres 30, one 14side, maybe 1 metre 40, 50 in the other. 15Q.
[Mr Irving]
In our language how many feet is that? Six or seven feet? 16A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes, eight feet by five feet, something like that. 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. Well 2 metres 30 is six feet, about seven feet. 18A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
We can check it on the blueprints, so why do we not do 19that? 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
This is quite an important point, my Lord. This is the 21bottleneck. We are looking at the bottleneck now. 22A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
We have actually the dimensions 2 metres 70 by 1 metre 43, 23so 2 metres 70. In the blueprints this is document 3B, 24tab 1, of the documents, it says in the enlargement to the 25right. So 143 would be 4 feet, 4 feet 10 inches and 2 26metres 70 would be ----

. P-177

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
Eight feet? 2A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No, it would be 9 feet, 30 centimetres per foot. 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
So, what, it is about as big as one of these table tops, 4is it, the shaft? 5A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No, 9 feet is longer than this table, and certainly it is 6much wider. This is less than a metre. 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
I am just trying to get an idea. Of course, that is not 8the area of the floor space in elevator itself, is it? 9A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
The elevator, we can go back to the blueprint. 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 11A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
It says -- the dimension is taken, the width is taken on 12the basis of the actual width of the platform. In the 13length I have to admit, at least in the design, the actual 14platform would have been slightly less than 2 metres 70. 15Q.
[Mr Irving]
Because of course you have got to have room for the 16counter weight to go up and down? 17A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No, the counter weight, there is a space for the counter 18weight right -- it is spared out to the side towards 19morgue No. 1. 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
Although it is not in any of these designs, in the Neufert 21designs the counter weight comes down inside the shaft? 22A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Are we referring to the plans of the crematorium or to 23Neufert? 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
You are saying there was an extra shaft to the counter 25weight? 26A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
There is quite a substantial space, I would say probably

. P-178

1one foot and a half, at the side of the platforms through 2which the counter weight could go. 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
Very well. So what was put into this? It was like a 4hospital lift, was it, in which bodies put or how would it 5normally be designed if this operating as a mortuary, what 6kind of insulation? Would a gurney or stretcher be 7wheeled in there carrying the bodies if it was a normal 8mortuary? 9A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I have no idea how lifts in normal mortuaries are. The 10information says "auf Zug", I presume that in this case 11this was designed for this building. This building 12obviously deals with mass mortality one way or another. 13So I think it is very unlikely that a gurney would have 14been wheeled into this thing, because I would not know why 15you would bring out a gurney into this morgue, and then 16load it on a gurney, put the gurney in the elevator and 17then immediately burn the body upstairs in a mass 18incineration facility. 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
First of all, we will start with the normal mortuary 20design because this was presumably a standard mortuary 21design which has been adapted for special conditions? 22A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No, Mr Irving, this is standard mortuary design. This is 23a rather unique mortuary design, probably unique in the 24world, in the history, no, it is not a standard. 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
But it was designed as a mortuary? 26A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Sorry, I stated it wrongly. You said "mortuary"

. P-179

1I meant ---- 2Q.
[Mr Irving]
The entire building was ---- 3A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
--- crematorium. 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
--- was originally designed for the purpose of acting as a 5joint mortuary crematorium? 6A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
But this crematorium was of a size and a capacity which 7has absolutely no precedent at all, or for that matter has 8never been followed by a crematorium of this size ever. 9There is no civilian crematorium at all of this size. The 10largest civilian crematorium so far as I know had three 11single muffle ovens and never had something like 15 muffle 12ovens. 13Q.
[Mr Irving]
Was that in wartime or in peacetime? 14A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
In Germany people built in peacetime and destroy in 15wartime. It is very unusual to build these kind of 16buildings in wartime. 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. You appreciate, do you not, that that lift shaft was 18the bottleneck through which all the victims of the 19Holocaust had to go, if we follow the standard version? 20A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I think most of the victims in the Holocaust died outside 21Auschwitz. So at least ---- 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
These 500,000 you talk about? 23A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
--- these people who went through that lift, that would 24have been a bottleneck between gassing and incineration. 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
I appreciate your earlier point. Of course far more 26people died than those 500,000 and I have never challenged

. P-180

1that point, let there be no doubt about that. We are 2looking at this building where, as you yourself said, more 3people died in this gas chamber than in any in other place 4on earth? 5A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
But bottleneck, of course, the bottleneck of course -- if 6there is going to be a bottleneck, let us say this door is 7going to be a bottleneck, a real serious bottleneck, if 8somebody screams "fire" in this room and we all try to get 9out as quickly as possible and some do not notice there is 10another room, another exit which says "fire exit" there, 11but if people file out, as they do at the end of these 12sessions, in a relatively orderly fashion, this is not a 13bottleneck. 14Q.
[Mr Irving]
If everyone here is dead, then they have a problem, then 15things slow down? 16A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
But the question is, the issue is, is it a bottleneck, 17also has to be considered in relationship to how long it 18will take to incinerate those bodies. So if at a certain 19moment it would take, let us say, 20 hours to incinerate 20the bodies of the people who have been gassed in the 21morgue, you have 20 hours to move the bodies upstairs. So 22then question is over that time would there be a 23bottleneck, yes or no, because the incineration room 24upstairs cannot also take all the 1500 bodies, whatever 25number of people were gassed downstairs. So only if you 26want to get all the bodies up simultaneously is this going

. P-181

1to be a serious bottleneck. 2Q.
[Mr Irving]
So they used the mortuary, however the people died, for 3the time being as a mortuary then? 4A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I mean corpses were removed in small batches from the 5mortuary to the incineration room to feed the 6incinerators. 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. Can we get some idea of the speed of the operation, 8because your eyewitnesses differ, do they not, as to how 9frequently this procedure was repeated? 10A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Which procedure? 11Q.
[Mr Irving]
The liquidation procedure, people being rammed into the 12gas chamber 2,000 at a time. We are looking at figures 13basically here. We not concerned with the "if". We are 14looking at how many. 15A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Again I am happy to discuss these testimonies when I have 16them in front of me. I thought we were talking about the 17elevator right now. 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
We are talking about the elevator. If the people are 19being rammed in at one time into the gas chamber and they 20are being liquidated and then they are being taken out 21through that one exit, up that relatively small lift 22shaft, this is the bottleneck which is going to be like 23the bottleneck in an hour glass. You cannot speed up the 24process? 25A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
But the bottleneck in an hour glass is only a bottleneck 26if you want all the sand to go down simultaneously. If

. P-182

1you want the sand to go down in an hour it is not a 2bottleneck. 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
But it is a controlling factor on the speed of the whole 4liquidation programme, is it not? 5A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
But there are much more important factors like the speed 6of incineration in the ovens. 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
You say it is more important, but let us look at the 8elevator. To make it absolutely plain, there was no other 9way of bringing the bodies from downstairs up to the 10furnace stage level? 11A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
There is another way. You could take the stairs, but that 12would have been very, very ---- 13Q.
[Mr Irving]
But that was not used? 14A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
--- it would be very inefficient and awkward. 15Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 16A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
My Lord, I presume that a question is coming. 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am presuming. I am waiting for it. 18MR IRVING: Yes. What do we know about the carrying capacity 19of that elevator? 20A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
There is a document for that. The elevator, this document 21in March for that, I think it is March 1943, they carried 22the original one which was installed for 750 kilos. 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
750 kilos. 24A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
They immediately asked to increase the carrying capacity 25of that elevator by providing extra cables to 1500 kilos. 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
What do we know about the provision of the motors for

. P-183

1those elevators? 2A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Again I do not want to talk about that right now. I do 3not have the document. But I do know, because I actually 4looked it up this morning, that they were adapting that 5particular -- it was a temporary elevator -- to a weight, 6to a carrying load of 1500 kilos. So I presume if they do 7that, that indeed there is a motor which will be able to 8hoist 1500 kilos. 9Q.
[Mr Irving]
This was made by Daemarg, I believe, the company? 10A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. 11Q.
[Mr Irving]
The provisional one. Why was there a provisional one 12installed, because the final ones were not ready? 13A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Because the SS, despite whatever they were doing in 14Auschwitz, were unable to get an elevator in early 1943. 15Q.
[Mr Irving]
They could not get the priority. 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: Anyway, carrying a load of 1500 kilos, that 17would be how many corpses? 18A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
An average one 60 kilos. It seems a little high, by that 19would be -- the theoretical carrying capacity would be, 20let us say, 20 corpses, so that would be 20, 25 corpses. 21MR IRVING: The same question of course is how many people you 22can pack into a telephone box, but packing them in takes 23time. It would be difficult to envisage having a working 24lift system with people piled four or five or six or seven 25high, because quite simply the doors would not close? 26A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
There were no doors.

. P-184

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
There were no doors? 2A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No. It was simply a platform which went up and down. 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
That would be even worse then. The bodies would 4presumably get jammed against the side of the lift shaft 5if they piled them too high. I am just looking at 6practicalities here, that although technically the final 7version of the lift, and I emphasise that, was going to 8have the 1500 kilogram capacity, in theory, when was that 9lift actually installed? 10A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
The 750 kilograms was installed by the time the building 11was finished and immediately they asked to double the 12capacity the oven. 13Q.
[Mr Irving]
And the 1500 one was not of course installed at this 14time? 15A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
It was not immediately, but they asked immediately for the 16increase in the carrying capacity. So obviously they 17wanted, whatever they were bringing up from the morgue, 18they probably wanted, they felt they needed more capacity 19for this lift. 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. It was not in fact installed until the end of 1943, 21the bigger the one? 22A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
The final one, no. This is only a modification to add 23extra cables. This is not the final elevator which is put 24in when finally the factory gets around to deliver them. 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
Is it not odd that once again the question arises here, 26that here is one of the most important killing centres in

. P-185

1the Third Reich and they just cannot get the stuff, they 2are not getting the priorities? 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: Shall we stick to one point at a time? You 4are on whether this was a bottleneck. 5MR IRVING: Can we now look at how long it took to make one 6round trip and load up? Have you any estimate of how many 7minutes or seconds it would take? 8A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
To load up how many corpses? 9Q.
[Mr Irving]
Well, this is the question. You have told us that it 10would take a large number of corpses, but I find this hard 11to believe if they had no doors and walls on this lift; it 12was just a platform going up and down? 13A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I think there are too many variables right now to stand 14here in court. I am happy to sit down and, like the 15Zyklon-B, spend a couple of days considering this 16question. 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
I am not asking you to do that. I am just asking you to 18do a back-of-an-envelope calculation which will help us to 19form some idea of how long it would take to raise 2,000 20bodies from this underground morgue to the furnace level, 21bring them in, stack them on, raise them up, unload them 22at the top level, bring the thing down empty again and 23repeat the cycle? 24A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I do not do a back-of-the-envelope and I would just want 25to do it as I am thinking out loud and nothing more. Let 26us say that it would take three to four minutes to load

. P-186

1this platform, that it takes another minute ---- 2Q.
[Mr Irving]
With how many? With how many bodies? 3A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Let us 10 bodies, 15 bodies, three to four minutes. Let 4me just make a note of it as I am going on. Then let us 5say it takes one minute and that is a long time for this 6platform to go up one storey. 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
No, because if it is a freight elevator in fact it takes 8twice as long. We know that from Neufert, do we not? 9A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
But we are talking one storey and we talk about a minute 10and a minute is a very long time. 11Q.
[Mr Irving]
A freight elevator does go slower than a passenger 12elevator? 13A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes, but we still talk about ---- 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: Come on much, not much turns on that, does 15it? We must keep an eye on realities. 16A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
We talk about 2 metres 50. We talk about 8 feet going 17up. Let us say it is another three, and I am very, very 18generous, you know, three, whatever, two, I mean less, one 19minute to unload the thing. 20MR IRVING: One minute to unload ten bodies? 21A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. A minute is a long time. 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
That is being very generous. I would suggest that the 23round trip, loading and unloading, would take about ten 24minutes each time? 25A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Ten minutes. So? 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
Then we have 2,000 bodies to process in this manner.

. P-187

1A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
So in your calculation we have, and I am slightly 2disgusted right now by the thing I have to do, but ---- 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
These are very rough calculations, but I am suggesting 4that we have a serious bottleneck which indicates that the 5figures that talk about have been inflated. I am only 6looking here at the figures. I am not looking at whether 7this happened or not. 8A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
It is going a little fast for me, my Lord, right now. 9I am happy to come back to this on Friday. 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: If you prefer to, as it is a new point to 11you. 12A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I am just trying to calculate in my head on the 10-minute 13basis, and, let us say we, what did we say, 10, 15 corpses 14on the thing, it would mean that in 10 minutes you 15get ---- 16Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
10 to 15. 17A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
It is one ---- 18MR IRVING: My Lord, I think it would be useful if he was to 19return to this after he has had time to do a calculation. 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: If you prefer. 21A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes, I would prefer to do that, because I think it seems 22to be a very important point. 23MR IRVING: It is a useful exercise. It is bottleneck in the 24operation which does give us a chance of arriving at some 25kind of concrete results. 26A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I would of course be quite pleased if somebody who knows,

. P-188

1if we got some more specific data about, you know, how 2long it would take for this elevator to come up, because 3obviously if we are 50 per cent wrong, then we suddenly 4have the bottleneck and there cease to be a bottleneck or 5not. 6Q.
[Mr Irving]
Just as in the calculation you made earlier on the Zyklon 7use? 8A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I took a very generous, very generous I think amounts for 9delousing. 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
We have those figures and I will supply them to you within 11the next 24 hours, the actual carrying capacity of the 12lifts, the various models, the size and so on and the 13actual speed in minutes and seconds that it would take to 14lift that distance. 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: We are comimg back to that on Friday. So let 16us leave that and get on. 17MR IRVING: My Lord, I just want to conclude by putting a 18number of general questions to the witness, if I may, 19which is, you will be glad to hear, off these very, very 20minute questions in the broadest possible terms now. 21 You had a colleague working with on your book, 22did you not, Deborah Dwork? 23A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
She is now a very famous Professor, is she not, at the 25Clark University? She has a Chair of Holocaust studies? 26A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Holocaust history.

. P-189

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
Holocaust history. Without wanting to sound tasteless 2about it, it has become quite an industry, a very well 3funded industry, has it not, this Holocaust education 4business? She writes in her own papers that she has 5received $5 million a year for funding her Chair and very 6enterprises? 7A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
She has been able to set up this Institute by this money 8donated by various donors, yes. 9Q.
[Mr Irving]
I am only asking these questions because you re one of the 10world's leading Holocaust scholars and you are probably in 11the best position to educate the court about these 12matters. It has become big business and it is not just 13I who say this; a number of other far more learned people 14than I myself have said this. The Chief Rabbi of England 15said it once. 16A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Mr Irving, I think that I am here as an expert on 17Auschwitz. If you want to have testimony as a member of 18the general public, and I am not one of the chief 19Holocaust historians, I am actually a cultural historian 20who was worked on Auschwitz, as a member of the general 21public I can answer. I do not know if the Judge will be 22very interested in my opinion. 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am interpreting this question as suggesting 24that your co-author was, effectively, delivering the goods 25on the Holocaust, that is to say exaggerating it, because 26she was being paid so well to do so.

. P-190

1MR IRVING: This is a very tactful way of putting it, my Lord. 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: It was not intended to be particularly 3tactful. 4MR IRVING: This was the inference I am trying to draw. I am 5trying to find the justification for the word that is 6frequently used about my own endeavours as being 7"dangerous". To what or whom am I being a danger? The 8only interpretation I can put on it is the fact that I am 9endangering people like Deborah Dwork who have made it 10quite a lucrative business, if one can regard being in 11education as being a business. Certainly she makes $5 12million a year for her Holocaust centre out of the 13Holocaust and the history of the Holocaust and teaching 14the Holocaust. There are all sorts of profitable side 15lines in publication of books and so on. This is what 16makes me into a danger, apparently, that if it turns out 17that this building here has no holes in the roof, then a 18large number of eyewitnesses have lied, and the whole mass 19extermination chamber part of the story collapses as 20securely as that roof has done. 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: Does Professor Dwork manipulate the evidence 22because she is making so much money out of her Chair? 23A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I will take your guidance on what I should answer and what 24not. 25Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Answer it shortly. 26A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
May I point out, first of all, that this is money she

. P-191

1raises for the Institute. 2MR IRVING: It is not for herself personally of course. I made 3that quite plain. 4A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. This is money which is raised to create Chairs. To 5provide students with scholarships, to build up a 6library. So in that sense I do not think that Professor 7Dwork at all profits from this. I also would like to 8point out that when Professor Dwork wrote this book with 9me, Professor Dwork was not a Professor of Holocaust 10history at Clark University. That in fact the sum total 11of support we got for this project to write the book on 12Auschwitz was 40,000 Canadian dollars which translates at 13the moment to £15,000 which I got from the Canadian 14Government, and that is all the support that went into 15writing that book. 16MR IRVING: The obvious question then is would she have been 17given a Chair in anything if she had not written the book, 18let us put it that way round? 19A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
My Lord, I do not see it is relevant. If you think it is 20relevant I will answer the question. 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: It has a sort of a relevance but not in terms 22of your evidence. 23MR IRVING: Yes. I will abandon that line of argument, my 24Lord. I just wanted to establish the fact somehow that 25I am considered to be danger to something, and the word 26danger is what puzzles me. I am not a member of the IRA.

. P-192

1I do not go round blowing up cars. So what am I danger 2to? I tried to put some flesh on to that particular 3matter. 4MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right. Next general question. 5MR IRVING: Next general question, have you had the opportunity 6to work in the Moscow archives? I do not know the answer 7to that. 8A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I have worked on the basis of the microfilms which were 9made at the same time that I had to work on this. 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. Have you worked in the national archives in 11Washington? 12A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I have been once there, but not really. I have not really 13worked in the national archives. 14Q.
[Mr Irving]
That really surprises me. You aware, of course, that the 15national archives in Washington have I suppose the largest 16collection of captured German records including in 17relation to the SS and Auschwitz? 18A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes, I am aware of that, and also I am aware that many of 19them have been made available. I am aware of the fact 20that one uses the archives which are useful for one's 21work. It happens to be that the archives, you know, when 22one works as an historian there are various particular 23things one researches for which one needs to go to the 24archives, because the documents are not available and one 25wants to see those particular archives. You want to see 26the documents in situ. In this case these are the

. P-193

1Auschwitz construction documents. Very important in my 2book, or in our book since the name of Deborah Dwork has 3been mentioned now, was the archive in Koblenz and to a 4lesser extent -- this is the German Federal archive in 5Koblenz and to a lesser extent, for example, the Berlin 6Document Centre and the archives of the court in Vienna. 7These were the archives where the unpublished documents 8were all stored. For other things, more general 9information, I rely sometimes on documents as they are 10produced in facsimile and sometimes even on documents as 11they are ---- 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
Can I halt this avalanche just there? We are still at the 13national archives in Washington. In May 1997 I believe I 14wrote you quite a lengthy letter? 15A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
You wrote it. I never received it. Yes. 16Q.
[Mr Irving]
You never received this letter I wrote to you? 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: What did it say? 18MR IRVING: It is a six-page peon of praise of his book, my 19Lord, drawing his attention to certain documents and 20archives and inviting his comment on matters of history, 21in the way that an historian should. I wrote to him -- 22your address is and always has been at all relevant times 23presumably the Head of the Department of History? 24A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No, I am not. 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
But you have been at the University Waterloo, have you 26not?

. P-194

1A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes, but I am in the architectural school. I am not in 2the Department of History. 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
If a letter is addressed to you at the University of 4Waterloo and properly stamped and posted, then there is 5every likelihood that it will reach you, is there not? 6A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I can only tell, and I am still under oath, that I never 7received this letter. 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: This is one question I am not going to 9decide. 10A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I only learned of it a year ago when people pointed it out 11to me on the web. 12MR IRVING: Are you aware that that letter has been posted on 13my web site for the last two years? 14A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
It happens that I am not very experienced with the web. 15Only somebody told me last year when I was already started 16to get involved in this case that it was posted on the 17web, and of course since I was already engaged on actually 18starting to work on this there was no way I could respond 19to it. 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
Are you going to make complaints at the University of 21Waterloo that letters properly addressed to you, properly 22addressed to your department, are not ---- 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think we have all got other things to worry 24about than this wretched letter, if I may say so. 25MR IRVING: Very well. Is it not a pity that the letter did 26not reach you in view of the fact that it contained

. P-195

1pointers to historical records that would have been of the 2utmost most information and assistance to you? 3A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
The book was published in 1996. So your letter is a year 4late after that. I do not know which particular documents 5you point to. If you want to provide me with a copy of 6the letter I will comment on these points. 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
There is a copy of the letter in the bundle which I gave 8his Lordship yesterday. If I can summarize without 9looking for it, it drew your attention, for example, to 10the interrogations of Rudolf Hirst which up to that point 11you had made no attempt to read in the national archives 12in Washington. You had written the book about Auschwitz 13but you made no attempt to read the verbatim 14interrogations of the commandant of Auschwitz? 15A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
May I point to your Lordship that these transcripts of the 16interrogations Rudolf Hirst were actually published in 17facsimile I think in 1970 and I did read those facsimile 18reproductions. 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
And yet there is not a trace of them in your published 20volume? 21A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
But it seems to be that as one would want to use Rudolf 22Hirst as a source, and I did not use every single word 23Rudolf Hirst said. There are much better sources than the 24interrogations. For example, his later memoirs and his 25essay on the Final Solution which he wrote in Poland are, 26in fact, places where he himself tries to put he whole

. P-196

1thing together. Certainly the Auschwitz book was not a 2history of what happened to the formation of knowledge 3about Auschwitz after the war. I do not deal with hat in 4the book. I did deal with it in this book, as you know. 5So I do not think that you can draw any conclusion of what 6is included in the book of what I consulted or not 7consulted. 8Q.
[Mr Irving]
Well, you gave very detailed footnotes indeed, did you 9not? You are writing a book about Auschwitz and yet you 10make no reference at all to having had in front of you, as 11you say, the entire transcripts of the integration of the 12Commandant? 13A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Mr Irving, I just want to ask you, if at a certain 14moment -- I have looked in making this book at 10,000 15documents and ultimately I used 1,000 of them in the 16book. You are not going to write 9,000 footnotes of 17actually mentioning the documents which you have not used. 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
I can sympathise with you because I am frequently in the 19same position, but sometimes there are collections of 20documents that are so important that I have to say you 21ought to have used them? 22A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Then I am very happy I am not your graduate student. 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let me try to break into this. My 24recollection is, I am probably wrong about, is that when 25you deal with Rudolf Hirst in your report you deal with 26the interrogations as well as what he says?

. P-197

1A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. 2Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
So where is this getting us? He was careless in the old 3days. That is the worst that can be said. 4MR IRVING: Careless in the old days? 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: Before his report. His report takes account 6of the integration of Rudolf Hirst. 7MR IRVING: But it also addresses the point of what attempts 8did I make to get further information. Here I have 9written a letter to one of the world's leading historians 10on Auschwitz and the Holocaust, inviting comments, asking 11his assistance, drawing his attention to documents, in the 12way that colleages do, and Professor van Pelt says he 13never received the letter. 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: I can see that your sending the letter may 15have some limited relevance, but his response to it seems 16to be me absolutely irrelevant. 17MR IRVING: I must admit, my Lord, that in asking these 18questions I was totally unprepared for the response that 19he had not received the letter. 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: Even if he said he had I do not think that it 21really matters what he did or did not do. Your point is, 22as I understand it, you wrote the letter, that shows that 23you were taking trouble to get your facts right. 24MR IRVING: There is one residual point, my Lord, and this that 25your Lordship will remember from the expert evidence 26I think of Professor Evans, or possibly even from the

. P-198

1expert evidence of this witness, that I am accused of 2having concealed the Altemeyer report until the solicitors 3for the Defendants went and investigated, and once I knew 4that they were on the trail I therefore blurted out the 5fact that I had it, which is of course an imputation that 6I find repugnant and I wish to try to investigate that 7allegation in view of the fact that I drew his attention 8to the Altemeyer report in this letter back in May 1997. 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: Then you ought to produce a copy of it. 10MR IRVING: Of the letter? My Lord, it was in the little 11bundle I gave your Lordship yesterday or the day before. 12 MR RAMPTON: I think it is in J11 of your Lordship's bundle. 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: J11. 14 MR RAMPTON: Yes. I do not have a J so I cannot help. 15MR IRVING: I think your Lordship is going to have the 16advantage on me. I can only rely on the letter as a fact 17because I do not have a copy here with me. 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, it is in J11. I am just going to find 19the reference to Altemeyer. I have flipped through it and 20I have missed it. 21A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I think Mr Irving is right. 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sure he is right. 23A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I think he is right. Actually again I will only say after 24I actually see it, but I think that indeed I remember him, 25when I finally read the letter, since I wrote something of 26a response to it, I think he actually mentioned Altemeyer,

. P-199

1but I do not see it either in this copy. 2MR IRVING: Will you now withdrawn the suggestion that I only 3made it known to people once it became known that the 4solicitors to the Defendants were on the trail. 5MR GRAY: That contains within it a number of assumptions, one 6of which is the assumption they were not on the trail as 7of May 1997. You are probably right. 8MR IRVING: My Lord, the imputation is that I was going to sit 9on that document and look at the wall and whistle until 10I realized that Mishcon de Reya had got on the trail of 11that document. 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I understand what the allegation is, but 13when did they get on the trail of Altemeyer? 14MR IRVING: As a result of the evidence they found out about 15Altemeyer. 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: So long after May 1997? 17MR IRVING: Presumably, my Lord, yes. 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: I cannot find Altemeyer. 19A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I found it. It is not numbered, but it is page 1. I do 20not know if we have the same format, 8: "Had you after 21visiting Washington", the eighth page, second paragraph. 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think I must have a different version. 23MR IRVING: It is the same version. 24A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I can read it to you. 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: Could you. 26A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
This is basically about all the things I did not do, but

. P-200

1it says: "Had you after visiting Washington flown on to 2London, England you could have used the many versions of 3the handwritten written memoirs of Hirst's erstwhile stand 4in Deputy Court Altemeyer written under similar conditions 5of duress. He too was no doubt deservedly hanged by the 6Poles. These pencil papers are held at the Public Record 7office, but Altemeyer does not even figure in your 8history. Is not such an original document 9written ... (reading to the words) ... rights for payment 10for profit-driven publishers." 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you. I want to track this down. 12I just want to see what the allegation is. It is in the 13Defendant's Summary of Case presumably? 14MR IRVING: My Lord, I believe it is in this witness's 15evidence, am I right, that you made the allegation that 16I did not reveal the existence of the Altemeyer document 17until I realized that Mishcon de Reya were on the trail? 18A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
From the discovery, and I think we can ---- 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
That being so, my Lord, it was entirely proper for me to 20mention this document. 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: Entirely proper. I am just tracking down 22what the allegation was so I can see whether you are right 23in saying that it is completely unfounded. Altemeyer is 24dealt with at 657 of your report. 25A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
657? 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
That is one of the places.

. P-201

1A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
This is 1992. What I say here: "The discovery of the 2Altemeyer material brought Irving in a very difficult 3position. While publication of it would once more 4demonstrate his ability to find interesting new archival, 5publication would discredit him as an analytical 6historian. Faced with this dilemma, Irving decided to do 7nothing. Suppressing his discovery, he buried a reference 8to it in a footnote of his book on Nuremberg", which is in 91996. 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: Where are you reading from, what page? 11A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Page 657. 12MR IRVING: There is another reference. 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have it. 14A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
So in my report I say that the first time he actually 15brings this one out is in 1996. 16Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Which is four years on? 17A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Four years on. 18MR IRVING: Then is must be in Professor Evans' report, my 19Lord, that the allegation is made. 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: So far as we have got, let us be clear about 21it, your letter in May 1997 to Professor van Pelt does not 22in any way detract from the point he makes, I am not 23saying it is a good point, that you sat on this Altemeyer 24evidence between 1992 and 1996. 25MR IRVING: That is not true, my Lord. In fact I drew it to 26the attention of other people like Professor Gerald

. P-202

1Fleming. 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is a different point. 3MR IRVING: Yes, but this is not the allegation I am trying to 4shoot down here. The allegation I am trying to shoot down 5here is the allegation that I did not move until 6Mishcon de Reya got on the trail and of course they did 7that thanks to my discover. 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us track that one down. 9MR IRVING: My Lord, that would be an appropriate point to 10stop? 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I think we have got to track this one 12down. If somebody can give me Altemeyer in Evans. 13A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Maybe I should go to ---- 14Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
You cannot do this, Professor van Pelt, because it is not 15your report. 16A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No, I am thinking maybe I am looking in my own report 17right now. If I come back to this. 18Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
It is a point that is made in Evans, but I do not think it 19makes it in quite the way that Mr Irving suggests. 20A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
It could actually have been me, but at a different thing. 21MR IRVING: It would not be very difficult for me to track this 22down at home, my Lord, because I can do it on my computer. 23 MR RAMPTON: My Lord, I have read paragraph ---- 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: We are trying to help you. 25 MR RAMPTON: My Lord, I have read paragraphs 37 to 40 on pages 26160 to 163 of Evans, and it is not what Mr Irving is on

. P-203

1about, that is for sure. 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is not what Mr Irving says, no. 3 MR RAMPTON: No. 4MR IRVING: It will be when I bring the chapter and verse, my 5Lord. 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: We have tracked it down as far as we are 7able. I think we had better move on to the next general 8question, Mr Irving. 9MR IRVING: I think I have come to the end of my general 10questions. I will have a quick look at my cheat sheet. 11Are you familiar with the evidence of Kasmir Smolen? 12A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Which evidence? 13Q.
[Mr Irving]
The various statements he has made to the effect that when 14working in the administration of the Auschwitz camp 15deliberate falsification of the records went on? 16A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I find it very difficult to -- deliberate falsification. 17I remember something but I do not really know exactly. 18I would not want to comment right now, because I do not 19know what records we are talking about and what utterance 20by Kasmir Smolen, but again I am happy to comment when I 21have it in front of me. 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
To your knowledge did prisoners not only arrive at 23Auschwitz but did they also leave Auschwitz? 24A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
There is one particular group of prisoners who left 25Auschwitz, yes. 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
But on a regular basis they went on to other camps?

. P-204

1A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Certainly that, yes. This is why there are survivors. 2Most of the Jews who survived Auschwitz who were not in 3the final evacuation actually were sent on from Auschwitz 4in 1944, when the decision was withdrawn that no Jews 5could be in the Reich so that they could work in 6concentration camps attached to factories in the Reich. 7This is one of the reasons, and I have explained that in 8our book in some detail, why Hungarian Jews were parked in 9Auschwitz. They arrived in Auschwitz. They survived the 10selection but were not numbered, were not actually 11admitted officially to the camp, and they were there for 12sometime before they were sent on to concentration camps 13in the Reich. 14Q.
[Mr Irving]
But would I be right in saying that to a certain degree 15Auschwitz was in fact a transit camp? 16A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
During the Hungarian action it took one of its many 17functions. It took on the function of a transit camp, but 18it only applied to a relatively small number of the total 19people who ever arrived there. 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
The Hungarian action involved how many people originally? 21How many people were deported from Hungary to Auschwitz? 22A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
About 450,000. 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
450,000? 24A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. That is a German figure. 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
What actually happened to those 450,000? Were they all 26gassed in some way or did some get sent somewhere else?

. P-205

1A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No. All these people, not even all the Hungarian Jews 2arrived in Auschwitz, the large majority, the great 3majority of them came to Auschwitz, I think the number of 4Hungarian Jews deported is even larger, but at Auschwitz 5we are talking about that number. These people were 6submitted to selection on arrival in Auschwitz. Then 7there were really three possibilities at that moment that 8could happen. Either one could be selected to die in the 9gas chambers or one could be selected to be admitted to 10the camp and given a number. There was a new numbering 11system created at the time to accommodate this and became 12a regular inmate of the camp or one of the satellite camps 13in Auschwitz. Or one could become durkhanstudent where 14one was housed temporarily in the camp without actually 15being officially admitted to the camp before being sent on 16to other concentration camps. 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
Where large numbers of these Hungarian Jews put to work in 18Germany? 19A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
The question is difficult to determine that, because there 20are different numbers of how many durkhanstudent there 21were, and this is in some way a point which certainly 22I would like to have seen, you know, more clearly 23established. One of the debates about the mortality 24during the Hungarian action of course ultimately has to 25relate, because when we know more or less how many 26Hungarian Jews were admitted to the camp and there are

. P-206

1only two ways to explain what happened, only two ways one 2can explain what happened to the people who were not 3admitted to the camp, either they were killed or they were 4sent to the West. So the issue of the mortality of the 5Hungarian Jews in Auschwitz ultimately is tied up to the 6number of durkhanstudent there were, and the Auschwitz 7camp, the numbers I remember of around 25,000 as to the 8number of durkhanstudent who went from Auschwitz to the 9West. 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
How many remained in the camp and were liquidated, in your 11opinion? 12A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I do not really want to give an opinion right now. I mean 13I am happy again to look at the figures. It seems to be 14that in May and June very high percentages of these 15transports were selected for death, but we are talking 16about hundreds of thousands of people who were killed in 17Auschwitz in the month of May and June. 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
Let us just for two minutes talk about Sturmlager, 19Auschwitz one? 20A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. 21Q.
[Mr Irving]
Which is now the big tourist centre, is it not? 22A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
This is where the reception building is where the film was 23shown and where there are exhibitions, yes. 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. They have a building there which they describe as 25the gas chambers and they show it to tourists as a gas 26chamber, is that right?

. P-207

1A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
There is a crematorium there and in the crematorium is a 2room which is described as a gas chamber. 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
There is a big chimney behind the building? 4A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
Which is not connected in any way whatsoever to the 6crematorium? 7A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
The chimney there which is right next to it is a 8reconstruction of the original chimney which was in 9exactly the same position which was connected like the 10chimney in crematoria two and three by underground flue to 11the crematorium building. This is a way to increase the 12draft of the chimney by leading the gas at basement level. 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not quite sure what the point of these 14questions is. 15MR IRVING: It is very brief, my Lord. The prisoner reception 16centre at Auschwitz one is where now the tourists arrive, 17am I right? 18A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
That is where the cafeteria is. 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
I have never been there, so I take your word for it. They 20are then taken into a building and at the end of the tour, 21"This is the gas chamber". They are invited to believe 22that this is the gas chamber, is that right? 23A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
One is not taken into building. One can either visit the 24building yes or no. 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
But they invited to believe hat this was the gas chamber? 26A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
There is a sign which says "crematorium and gas chamber".

. P-208

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
Was that building that is described as tourists as a gas 2chamber ever used as a gas chamber? 3A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes, it was used as a gas chamber. 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
This is not what you wrote in your book? 5A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
That is exactly what I wrote. I have a very long 6description in my book about the use of that space, and 7the space is not exactly the same as in the war. I have a 8very long quotation. A number of different places. 9Q.
[Mr Irving]
The space is what? 10A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
At the moment the space is one bay bigger than it was 11during of war. I have extensive descriptions in my book 12of the transformation of that space into a gas chamber and 13of the use of that space into a gas chamber. 14Q.
[Mr Irving]
If you go there as a tourist now and you ask the guides, 15they will admit to you that this was never used as a gas 16chamber, is that, is that right? 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is really worthless, is it not. 18MR IRVING: I beg your pardon? 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is worthless as a point. 20MR IRVING: The guides would know, my Lord. 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: They might or they might not. I should think 22probably they were born 30 years after these events. 23MR IRVING: My Lord, I will on Friday confront this witness, if 24I may, with what he wrote in his original book on 25precisely the building we are talking about, where he said 26in terms that this building is a fake.

. P-209

1MR JUSTICE GRAY: Even if it is, I just do not want you to 2build up a point that is not really at the moment 3impressing me enormously. Tell me if I am wrong. This is 4trying to convey to people, you call them tourists, all 5right, call them tourists if you want to, what things were 6like according to a lot of people's opinion. 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is there anything wrong with that? 8MR IRVING: Yes, it is called "passing off". The tourists are 9not told that is a fake. They are not told that this 10building was erected in 1948. 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, make of this point whatever you wish, 12Mr Irving. 13MR IRVING: My Lord, the point is quite clearly, of course, 14that later on you will be hearing how I have been fined a 15substantial amount for saying precisely this fact which 16turns out to be true. 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not concerned with what other courts 18have done, fined you or whatever. 19MR IRVING: It will be held against me by the witnesses, my 20Lord. 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, not by me which is perhaps more 22important. 23THE WITNESS: My Lord, may I just give Mr Irving one piece of 24advice as he prepares for this, that I know which sentence 25in the book you are going to refer to, but I also would 26invite you to read pages 293 and following of my book

. P-210

1which describes in detail the transformation of this 2morgue into a gas chamber and the operation as a gas 3chamber. 4MR IRVING: The transformation of the morgue into a gas 5chamber? 6A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. Page 293, in the late summer/early fall of 1941. 7Because I will come back to those pages when you are 8talking about my epilogue where the discussion is about 9the present condition of the building. I will refer back 10to this page, so we save each other and the judge a lot of 11time. 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
You are also discussing the integrity of the site, are you 13not? 14A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I am quite happy to discuss the integrity of the site. 15Q.
[Mr Irving]
In your book you did? 16A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes, I did. 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
And you complained that the integrity of the site has been 18tampered with and that it is no longer the same buildings 19and they are not being put to the same uses? 20A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
If you confront the same, the exact words, then I comment 21on it. My major discussion is on the prisoner reception 22building, and I deplore the fact that this building is not 23shown in its original state, but has been used for tourist 24purposes. 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
Why would the present Director of the Auschwitz State 26Museum in 1995 say to the French newspaper, L'Expresse,

. P-211

1"Toute y est faux", "Everything there is fake"? 2A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
This is -- I think I deal with it in my report and I am 3happy to go to my report, to the particular thing which 4was said. We are dealing here, certainly the one thing is 5that the person did not speak French and, if you want, 6I can go to my report and deal with this. 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have made my position clear. I do not 8understand where this gets anybody, this point. 9 MR RAMPTON: And I do not either and I, perhaps, in some 10sense have as much interest in this aimless ramble as your 11Lordship because the longer me and my team are in court, 12the more money it costs my clients. I am OK, but it is 13quarter past 4 and we are not sitting tomorrow, but if 14this start up again on Friday, I am going to have 15something to say about it. 16MR IRVING: Well, my Lord, we spent some time looking at the 17integrity of crematorium No. (ii) which has been held to 18be highly pertinent to this case. The other extermination 19centre is supposed to be Auschwitz 1 or the Sturmlager, 20and I hold that I am entitled to look at the integrity of 21that site too. 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, yes, as it originally was, of course, 23but whether it is a tourist reconstruction, which is, 24I think, how you like ---- 25MR IRVING: Or what I call a "fake". 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- or a tourist fake, whatever label you like

. P-212

1to put on it, seems to me not really to be the point. If 2you want to investigate what it was used for at the 3relevant period, 1942/43, that is one thing, but you are 4now investigating whether it has been described by the 5Superintendent at Auschwitz as being a fake. Well, so 6what? 7MR IRVING: This is of relevance only when we come to the 8political part of this case, my Lord, where I am accused 9of having said despicable and perverse things which could 10not possibly be true. For this reason, I was proposing to 11ask this expert on the Holocaust and on Auschwitz to what 12degree what I said was true. Your Lordship may consider 13this is totally irrelevant in which case, of course, 14I shall bow to your Lordship's ruling. 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, if that is what it is said to be 16relevant to ---- 17MR IRVING: I apologise for not having made that plain. 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- I would like to see quite what it was 19that you did say about Auschwitz being a tourist 20attraction or part of Auschwitz being a tourist 21attraction. 22MR IRVING: The actual sentence was: "The building which is 23shown to the tourist today is a fake built by the Poles 24after the war as a gas chamber". 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do you want to take that any further? I 26mean, you have the answer.

. P-213

1MR IRVING: Not at this moment, my Lord. 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: "No, it is not a fake because it was used as 3a gas chamber". That is what Professor van Pelt says. 4You do not have to accept it, obviously. 5MR IRVING: Except that I may wish very briefly confront him 6with what he himself wrote, if I may, but not at this 7moment, my Lord. 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: You will look at page 293 as well? 9MR IRVING: It may not be the page I am relying upon, my Lord. 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: I suspect it will not be. 11 Now, I think we have probably reached the end of 12the day. 10 o'clock on Friday. (To the witness): You 13are going to be able to be back? 14A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes, I will come back tomorrow night. 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, I think it might help everybody to 16know how much more cross-examination -- it is very 17difficult to estimate, I realize. 18MR IRVING: I have already informed leading counsel for the 19Defendants that I do not want anticipate having much more 20than about another half day of questions because I would 21like to think that Professor van Pelt can return over the 22weekend, given adequate time for re-examination where 23necessary. 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. Well, that is very kind of you to have 25given that indication. Mr Rampton, do you think that you 26will reach somebody else on Friday?

. P-214

1 MR RAMPTON: I have not got any witnesses. 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: You have not? 3 MR RAMPTON: No, not to bring on Friday, no, but I am not 4really doing my case. I am cross-examining Mr Irving. 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. Will you resume cross-examining him? 6 MR RAMPTON: I can easily do that. 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: Good. 8THE WITNESS: My Lord, may I just -- since I think that I still 9have to give the presentation on the blueprints, so 10I think that -- I do not know exactly how long it will 11take me, but I think it will take me an hour, an hour and 12a half to do that, to go through the material. 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: Will it really take as long as that? That is 14slightly gloomier, but that is no disrespect to you, but 15if you can present it more ---- 16A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
If you want it shorter, give me time and I will try to do 17it much shorter. 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, you are going to have a bit of time to 19think about it. 10 o'clock on Friday. 20< (The witness stood down)21(The court adjourned until Friday, 28th January 2000)2223242526