If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

If what you are saying is that if someone truly believes, they believe (and if they waiver, they will go to the Lord and repent for their waiver as well---like the man who said to the Lord that he believed but asked Him to help his unbelief) and will put their lives on the line for it, lose it if that is what it comes to, they will never recant their salvation, period, willing to suffer for the Lord no matter what comes their way and just absolutely trust that the Word of the Lord is true and never turn from Him, then that is absolutely true.

They are not sealed by the Holy Spirit though. That is only for the Church. The 144,000 are the only ones said to be sealed in Revelation 7:3. The scriptures never say that any other believer is sealed during the Tribulation, though I know that the Left Behind series depicts that they have a mark on their forehead by the Lord. The two witnesses are said to be given authority (Rev 11:3). With all that fire breathing and turning water into blood and shutting off the rain and striking plagues on the earth, they seem to have their situation under control through these things the Lord has given them quite well! There are quite a few mentions of the patience/perseverance of the Trib saints throughout Revelation.

Do we agree now?

I'm not speaking of protection as in a seal. I'm saying that those that accept Christ in the Tribulation will not lose their salvation. To teach otherwise is unBiblical. There is no scripture that supports this thought. Those that accept the mark and worship the beast were never saved to begin with.

I believe that the Holy Spirit will be here during the Tribulation but will operate in the same way as He did during the OT, Tribulation Saints will not be sealed but may be guided and "assisted" by the Holy Spirit. If a person takes the mark then they can't be a Tribulation Saint so that doesn't support your claim that Tribualtion Saints (those that accept Christ during the Tribualtion) are not preserved through the Tribualtion. A person will ONLY become a Tribulation Saint by accepting Christ's work on the cross and NOT accepting the MOB, if the person claims to be a believer but takes the MOB then they were never a believer to begin with therefore not a Tribulation Saint.

When the MOB is presented, it's true purpose will also be presented. When people take the MOB they will know that it's purpose is to show allegiance to the AC, people will not be taking it unknowlingly or without knowing the reason behind taking it so if someone takes it they are not nor have they ever been a Tribulation Saint. I believe that the only thing that will make a person a Tribulation Saint is their "endurance to the end" meaning they either lose their head for not agreeing to worship the beast or God protects and carries them through the Tribulation into the MK.

I'm not speaking of protection as in a seal. I'm saying that those that accept Christ in the Tribulation will not lose their salvation. To teach otherwise is unBiblical. There is no scripture that supports this thought. Those that accept the mark and worship the beast were never saved to begin with.

razberry, yes we are sealed but we are sealed with the Holy Spirit and this being during the age of grace. In Footsteps of the Messiah, Fruchtenbaum says the age of grace carries through till the end of the Tribulation, others believe it ends after the Rapture, either way during the Tribulation, the only ones that will be sealed are the 144 thousand but they will be sealed with a mark upon their forehead, it will be visible. In order to be sealed by the Holy Spirit it would mean the Spirit resides within you but that can't happen if the Holy Spirit is removed (or at least the restraining capacity is removed), therefore a Tribulation Saints eternal destination will depend solely upon whether they take the MOB or not, it's all about the MOB. If they don't take the MOB, they won't be allowed to just run and hide and worry about being caught later, if they don't take the MOB they will be beheaded. There will be believers that don't get caught (in other words are protected by God) and make it into the MK, these will be the ones that re-populate in the MK.

A person's "salvation" will depend solely on whether they take the MOB or not. What works will there be to do in the Tribulation? Go out a preach the Gospel? From my understanding the only ones that will be protected from death will be the 144 thousand that are sealed upon their forehead (minus the 2 witnesses that die and are raised up again and taken to Heaven by God). So what "works" will there be to do? The final straw will be whether or not a person takes the MOB because the MOB will be explained so when people choose to take it they will in other words be saying yes to worshipping the beast, those who say no thanks to the MOB will be those who are declaring they will not worship the beast but Christ instead.

So when Revelation 14:9-10 says "Any man who worships the beast....." it is correct that any man who takes the MOB (in other words worships the beast) they will drink of the wine of the wrath of God.....that's exactly it, at that point, regardless of what you called yourself up to that point (Trib. believer or not) it will be the MOB that decides your eternal fate. You can claim to be a Trib. believer before that but nothing is in stone until you either take the MOB or you don't, that is when your fate will be sealed. Endure to the end means you either make it to the MK (with God's help) or you die for your resistance to taking the MOB.

I happen to really like the Left Behind series and am reading them for the 2nd time (on book 8). They are fiction and I take them as that. Nothing more. If I want to really know how it will be during the Tribulation I read the Bible, not a fiction book.

Wow, lol, this is my second time too and I'm on book 7.

Like many have said, everyone needs to remember that they are a work of fiction. However, I do believe the framework is biblically sound.

About having children... I'm sure people will, after all children are all taken during the rapture yet when the antichrist marches on jerusalem there will be women with nursing children.

At the risk of children getting the mark of the beast, I see two scenarios. 1, By God's hand, humans will no longer reproduce children. I'm sure they try, but women will no longer birth children. Or 2, women birth children, only to have them snatched away by either angels or God's hand to heaven where they will not endure the suffering of the tribulation.

At the risk of children getting the mark of the beast, I see two scenarios. 1, By God's hand, humans will no longer reproduce children. I'm sure they will copulate. But women will no longer birth children. Or 2, women birth children, only to have them snatched away by either angels or God's hand to heaven where they will not endure the suffering of the tribulation.

Doesn't explain the fact that the faithful remnant will be fleeing Israel and will have infants among them.

At the risk of children getting the mark of the beast, I see two scenarios. 1, By God's hand, humans will no longer reproduce children. I'm sure they will copulate. But women will no longer birth children. Or 2, women birth children, only to have them snatched away by either angels or God's hand to heaven where they will not endure the suffering of the tribulation.

Humans will indeed reproduce and birth children after the rapture. See below Scripture references:

Matthew 24:19

And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

Luke 21:23

But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

Mark 13:17

But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

I never saw anything in Scripture that says children will be snatched away and spared from suffering during the tribulation. When you look at Scripture from the Old Testament, children weren't snatched away or spared during bad times.

At the risk of children getting the mark of the beast, I see two scenarios. 1, By God's hand, humans will no longer reproduce children. I'm sure they will copulate. But women will no longer birth children. Or 2, women birth children, only to have them snatched away by either angels or God's hand to heaven where they will not endure the suffering of the tribulation.

Small children neither buy or sell, nor do they worship. The mark won't be necessary for them. Again, the mark is a choice Satan will offer. It will be a clear cut choice: Jesus or antichrist.

Maybe I'm not explaining myself very well. Wouldn't be the first time.

The way I see it, being sealed, as we are, means we are saved and eternally secure, bought and paid for with a price, we belong to Jesus and NOTHING can snatch us from His hand. I believe sealed means the same for the 144,000, plus they'll have a visible sign. We and the 144,000 are/will be sealed with the Holy Spirit. I tend to believe the restrainer is the Church, not specifically the Holy Spirit.

During the trib, believers will have to have faith AND refuse to take the mark in order to be saved. That's what I meant by faith and works. They're not simply saved by having faith but also by enduring to the end by either dying for their faith in Jesus or actually making it thru the 7 yrs without taking the mark (which is highly unlikely for the vast majority). This means it's a new dispensation, imo.

As far as one's salvation being totally dependent on whether or not they take the mark during the trib, there could be some who have absolutely no faith in Jesus yet still refuse the mark. (Rebels against the NWO perhaps. There are many of them out there now just like this. They hate world gov't but have no faith whatsoever in God.) They'll still die for their rebellion against the AC and they'll still go to hell for their rebellion against God. Simply refusing the mark won't save them. They must have faith and they must refuse the mark in order to be saved.

I guess I disagree with Fruchtenbaum on this point.

Again, point to scripture that states believers during the tribulation after accepting Christ can lose their salvation. There is no scripture that states this. Those that knew the Gospel and take the mark were never saved. The Old Testament is clear that once the heart was circumcised in God it could not be reversed, so why would the tribulation be any different??? You are stating that salvation during the tribulation will be contingent upon works, which goes against scriptural teaching of salvation.

I believe the answer to this lies with Daniel 11:32-33 -

32 With flattery he will corrupt those who have violated the covenant, but the people who know their God will firmly resist him.

33 "Those who are wise will instruct many, though for a time they will fall by the sword or be burned or captured or plundered.

Those that truly know God will not be tricked or seduced by the antichrist. Again, those that took the mark never knew God.

Yes, there will be judgement upon works, but salvation is not based on works. We will all be judged upon the works that we did in God's name. The Goats are not Christians. That was my point to Razberry. The notion that salvation can be lost is not found in the scriptures.

Again, point to scripture that states believers during the tribulation after accepting Christ can lose their salvation. There is no scripture that states this. Those that knew the Gospel and take the mark were never saved. The Old Testament is clear that once the heart was circumcised in God it could not be reversed, so why would the tribulation be any different??? You are stating that salvation during the tribulation will be contingent upon works, which goes against scriptural teaching of salvation.

I believe the answer to this lies with Daniel 11:32-33 -

32 With flattery he will corrupt those who have violated the covenant, but the people who know their God will firmly resist him.

33 "Those who are wise will instruct many, though for a time they will fall by the sword or be burned or captured or plundered.

Those that truly know God will not be tricked or seduced by the antichrist. Again, those that took the mark never knew God.

I have a Complete Jewish Bible. One reason I bought it was to see how a Messianic Jew would translate the New Testament, and I had just gotten started on word studies and looking into the original languages. Stern translates faith many times as trust. Many.

I did a word study on it, and indeed, trust can be a replacement to mean faith. I was surprised, and spent a lot of time thinking about this. Why is that? Well, for example, when we have had a personal conversion experience with the Lord and been reborn and we read His Word and know Him, what happens? He authors our faith and we trust Him, or alternatively said, we place our faith in Him. Same idea completely--two words to convey the same meaning. Do you have both faith that a chair will hold you up if you sit in it even if you are not sitting on a chair right now or are even anywhere where there is a chair in sight? Is that because you know that a chair will hold you up based on a prior experience with sitting in a chair, even if you cannot see one right now? Sure, you trust that a chair will do it again, even if you are not presently in the vincinity of a chair.

Salvation is always the same. It is through faith, trust that He is exacty who He says He is and did exactly what He said He did. OT Saints were saved by faith on credit, so to speak. The MK will be full of only believers, but as soon as they start having children, they will have to demonstrate their faith by their works. If they do not do the works, it is because they do not have faith, even though Jesus is right there. In other words, they don't want to sit in the chair or even try it out. They like their way of sitting and doing things instead. It doesn't include a chair. Not a perfect illustration---the Lord is so much more than a chair--but the best I can do right now.

Believing in the Lord is the work that demonstrates faith. It is the work the Lord calls for in John 6:29. If you don't believe, you don't have faith or trust. When you believe and have faith, you repent and receive the Lord.

To say that this---that salvation is always by faith in the Lord----is not the case dismisses where we are told in the Bible that Satan will be loosed again at the end of the 1000 years for a short time and a band of unsaved human rise up with Satan to oppose Jesus, which will not last long, and then we go into eternity. They don't believe it and they like their way better than the Lord. If they believed, then they would have faith.

Demons and Satan do know who Jesus is and they know God well. But they don't place their faith in Him or His ways. They still believe that they can outsmart Him and will until they are in the Lake of Fire forever. If they believed, then they would repent.