Born and raised in the Ukraine, do I feel entirely bad about what's happening in the Ukraine now? Not really. Read this piece related to Ukrainians' role during the WWII towards Jews and Polish (it's Russian, I translated it using Google Translate): http://www.istpravda.ru/pictures/7882/

"...One of the characteristic features of the pogrom was the humiliation of Jewish Women . Such precedents have already happened during the pogroms in Nazi-occupied Poland . In December 1939 in Krakow forcibly stripped Jews - and many members of the OUN (especially those which soon became the backbone of the Bandera Movement ) were in Krakow at the time , waiting for the Soviet occupation of Western Ukraine.

Lviv 1941 women kicked, beaten in the face and other parts of the body with sticks and improvised things , pulled her hair , swinging from one to another pogromist . Many publicly stripped naked ."

I apologize for my comments. Having lived in the U.S. all my life and enjoyed the 'relative peace there' for most of my life it is hard for me to understand how this argument continues. I guess it is unresolved and I am surprised that a Catholic priest has not sought peace in the matter between Ukrainian and Polish Patriots. The answer only is in God's book... abandoned by by both sides of the Christian aisle Greek and Roman Catholic.We are cautioned in Psalm 146:3 (NKJV) do not put your trust in Princes nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. His spirit departs, he returns to the earth, in that day his plans perish." Fascists, Communists, Monarchists,Nationalists have no answer.Please cease from your vain contentions and seek the Lord while He can be found, especially you so called religious leaders. Sincerely, son of a Dobra refugee.

In 1942-7,cruel ukrainian megacriminals UPA (Shukchevych)bestially murdered 200000 of innocent ,defenceless Poles(prof.N.Davies: Polish children were blinded,skinned & cut in two)
When Polish men bravely fought all over the world(gen.Sikorski,Skalski,Maczek,Szyszko,Anders),were killed by Germans,Soviets,judeo-communist UB(Berman,Brystygier...)

Polish friends, I suggest that we crowd fund a new computer game where Polish and Ukrainian peasants go at each other Rwanda style - with machete and sh*t, also with samurai swords and all the other cold weapon (Indeed, without samurai swords and machetes dirt poor peasant could not kill 120k of each other in a couple of months). Also in the game, there will be a small Nazi regiment heroically protecting Jews from bloodthirsty horde of Polish and Ukrainians (based on the historical evidence from the recent German TV show "Nazi come from Mars and Germans come from Venus".)
Eventually, the carnage will be stopped by the Europeans of the future (all of whom are gay) who will send an expedition from the future.

Tomasz P. Terlikowski: Can you recognize the boisterously announced by the Catholic Church in Poland and Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church common Polish-Ukrainian declaration as a turning point?

Father Tadeusz Isakowicz – Zaleski: I don’t think so that this event can be recognized as a turning point.

Tomasz P. Terlikowski: Why?

Father Tadeusz Isakowicz – Zaleski: The sides of the conflict have been wrongly defined. The genocide took place in the Eastern Kresy and in today’s Podkarpacie and Lubelszczyzna regions and was not committed by the Ukrainian nation and directed against the Polish nation. The crime was committed by people who were the nationalist cancer on the Ukrainian nation.

Tomasz P. Terlikowski: Cancer? Is this term not to strong?

Father Tadeusz Isakowicz – Zaleski: How differently can you describe the Ukrainian chauvinists from the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA) and SS Galizien? These people committed genocide not only against Poles but earlier against Jews, and also Armenians or Czechs. Ukrainians who opposed the nationalistic ideology or rescued Poles became also their victims.

Tomasz P. Terlikowski: This is a fact that OUN-B or UPA believed in nationalistic ideology, but their creators and ideologists are the fathers of the Ukrainians national identity, at least in the version which is believed in, in the Western Ukraine. The distinct condemnation of them is difficult for the Ukrainian historians or hierarchs, who wants to strengthen the Ukrainian independence.

Father Tadeusz Isakowicz – Zaleski: Let’s remember on what basis the Ukrainian nationalism was formed. The ideological father of the Ukrainian nationalism Dmytro Dontsov, emphasized that to create independent Ukraine, there is a need to use “creative violence”, that means ordinary terror. He agreed to kill Poles, Jews, but also those Ukrainians who were considered as traitors because they didn’t agree to chauvinism and nationalism. These ideas were implemented by the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN), especially the Stepan Bandera’s faction.

(…)

Tomasz P. Terlikowski: The word “cuzeniec”(foreigner) can suggest that it is about the people who have been on the territories only recently. The majority of Poles have settled the land since the reign of Casimir III the Great. It’s difficult not to recognize them as the residents of Volyn.

Father Tadeusz Isakowicz – Zaleski: Ostrowki and Wola Ostrowiecka – two villages, which were put to the edge of the sword in August 1943 [today don’t exist]– were settled by Poles during the reign of The Jagiellonian dynasty. Armenians, among them were my ancestors, escaped to Volyn and Podole from the persecutions by Turkish many centuries earlier. Similarly Jews. The majority of the representatives of the minorities, which was killed there, lived in the lands for centuries, settled into the lands, and didn’t know the other homeland. It’s hard to recognize them as strangers! But they were regarded as strangers, similarly the people from mixed families. Sometimes, husbands were forced to kill their wives, and children to kill one of their parents.

Father Tadeusz Isakowicz – Zaleski: This is complete rubbish. The majority of Polish landowners, officers, officials had been murdered or deported to Siberia by Soviets till 1941. Then they were murdered by Germans. UPA murdered poor peasants. The majority of the victims were not nor the intelligentsia, neither the wealthy, but peasants equally poor like their Ukrainian neighbours. The only difference was language they used and the Latin rite.

Tomasz P. Terlikowski: Can we talk about a religious war in the lands?

Father Tadeusz Isakowicz – Zaleski: At that time, a rite distinguished victims from butchers. It’s worth remembering, if the Polish bishops haven’t explained this in the declaration, what the “bloody Sunday” was. This was not an attack on Polish garrisons or fortifications, but attacks on churches. Bandera’s people intentionally chose the day, when people were praying at churches, and in the churches they were killed, burnt, chopped with axes. Often during a Holy Mass. Priests were killed during Holy Masses at the altar. This had never happened before and it can be recognized as a fight with Christianity.

Tomasz P. Terlikowski: Can be the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church blamed for this? There were clear statements of Metropolitan Archbishop Andrey Sheptytsky, O.S.B.M., who condemned the massacres, and appealed for conversion.

Father Tadeusz Isakowicz – Zaleski: But in practice non of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church clergymen, who participated in the massacres and slaughters, has not been brought to justice, non of the clergymen was suspended. There were no punishments for blessing knives in the Ukrainian Greek Catholic churches. On the one hand there were small actions, often not clear for the people, such as the Szeptycki letter, on the other there was a transfer of chaplains to SS Galitzen, tolerating of extreme chauvinism, in the parish Ukrainian Greek Catholic churches or acting in the UPA units. You should also be aware that even today the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church doesn’t dissociate itself from those actions. In the delegation which came to Poland together with Metropolitan Archbishop Swiatoslaw Szewczuk was also Abp Ihor Wozniak, who in 2007 blessed a monument to Bandera in Lwow and then he talked about “the Polish occupation of Lwow, and also prised the Bandera’s people. This is not an exception but more and more often a rule.

Tomasz P. Terlikowski : There is nothing about these issues in the common declaration of the Polish and Ukrainian bishops?

Father Tadeusz Isakowicz – Zaleski: That’s why the declaration is not a turning point. In the declaration there is no word about who, where and why murdered. There is no word about the sides of the conflict or about the genocide itself. There are many words which contribute to blurring of responsibility and shifting the responsibility on to everybody.

Tomasz P. Terlikowski : Because?

Father Tadeusz Isakowicz – Zaleski: Because it doesn’t mention for example that outside the Volyn you can’t say about genocide. East of the Zbrucz river near Zytomierz, Kamieniec Podolski or Winnica, there lived many Poles, but there were no attacks on them. This shows that the problem is not a Polish-Ukrainian conflict but nationalistic ideology, which was developed in former Eastern Galicja [Malopolska] or in the present Western Ukraine. Omitting this fact, together with omitting the term „genocide” causes, that this document doesn’t bring us closer to reconciliation and the truth.

(…)

Tomasz P. Terlikowski : However, you are aware of the fact that without this ideology, a part of Western Ukrainians don’t have their national identity

Father Tadeusz Isakowicz – Zaleski: Agree, but this doesn’t mean that we have to agree on this. If Ukraine is aspiring to membership of the EU, it can’t base its identity on murderers.

Father Tadeusz Isakowicz – Zaleski: Ukraine has many real fathers, for example Symon Petliura. It don’t have to reach for the people who murdered Poles and Jews. This is a step into the abyss by Ukrainians.

"However, you are aware of the fact that without this ideology, a part of Western Ukrainians don’t have their national identity"
Yes, absolutely true. For many or I would say too many Western Ukrainians UPA is the cornerstone of their identity and hence they do not like exposing the ideology- driven genocidal character of that organization.

I also thank God for TV Trwam (yes, you're right Josh, I do watch it). A very interesting discussion including Ewa Siemaszko another lady and a survivor of an UPA massacre in Polish village in the former Tarnopole (Podole) voivodeship.

The last of these stressed that referring to the Volyn massacre is misleading because the genocide later moved south to encompass four former Polish provinces. He also rightly stressed that UPA might have called itself an army, but it represented no government, state or nation. A tiny bunch of terrorists who recruited Ukrainians by force, if the recruit fled, they'd visit his family and make offers that were very hard to refuse. Since many of the recruits were extremely poor, the prospect of loot was also a motive.

All the witnesses I ever heard, for instance Father Krąpiec, stressed that before the war relations with Ukrainians in these provinces were generally friendly, all sides respected each others religious holidays. In the more southern provinces the Ukrainians were/are generally Greek rite Catholics(Uniates), so mixed marriages were very common, around 30%. Indeed religion was most certainly not the obstacle, but it was in the more southern that the Ukrainian nationalists posed the cruellest of ploys: they had the Ukrainian murder his non-Ukrainian spouse or suffer the same fate. Such cases did occur, but in most cases both were murdered.

The genocide survivor said something I think is very important: in those days we could talk of a Ukrainian society, but not of a nation. The sad fact today is that in western Ukraine people are trying build a nation on the myth of national socialist, genocidal killers. Of course that involves completely denying genocide, but as the Rev. Isakowicz-Zalewski rightly says that's a road into the abyss. The Nationalist Socialists may have had the support of no more than 1% of the Ukrainian population before the war, likewise the communists, but such fanaticism is apparently taught in today's Ukrainian schools. That's certainly apparent in the monuments raised in a generally impoverished land.

And the other side in Ukrainian politics doesn't seem to care, Yanukovych didn't bother to show up in Łuck, perhaps such a state of affairs suits their purpose too?

Thankfully, the truth is always the same. I was also reminded about the Ukrainian nationalist's (essentially anti-Christian) Decalogue, first formulated by Dmytro Doncow in 1929, and see it is still applied by certain interlocutors very upset about commemorating the victims of this particular genocide.

Poor Father Tadeusz, seems to have all of his facts wrong. The comments appear to be verbatim anti-Ukrainian propaganda generated by Russians (Moscow). In fact, had Father Tadeusz done his homework (ie; actually really understood the facts) he would have come to realize that it was primarily (almost exclusively) members of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church who took revenge on the Polish colonists. The number of Greek-Catholics in Volyn was and remains very small. The Greek Catholics live primarily in Halychyna (Galicia) and to a lesser extent beyond the Carpathian mountains in what is now the Zakarpatska Oblast of Ukraine.

I'm questioning whether this is in fact a true statement by a Polish Roman Catholic priest. It appears to much more like pure Soviet turned Russian propaganda.

"I also thank God for TV Trwam (yes, you're right Josh, I do watch it)."
____________________________

Now, that wasn't a tough one! LOL

I will let you in on a secret: When driving around in Poland, I occassionally listen to Radio Marija myself.

Why on earth would I do that, you might ask?

Simple - they have the most slowly and clearly speaking presenters, no doubt because a substantial part of their audience is probably hearing impaired.

For foreigners like me, it's a great way of picking up some Polish, even if the content is often mildly disturbing ("Tonight, we would like to discuss why Poland is the most unfairly treated country in the world, and why the world owes us").

You don't lose your sense of humor in the midst of our little spat here, and that is appreciated.

I agree about clear pronounciation being a sign of good "kindersztuby"; when it comes to speed of speech, however, I know quite a few people who I believe are very educated and speak very rapidly, especially when they speak more than one language fluently (and particularly Romance language speakers, for some reason).

Here you have the historical background of the genocide committed by the Ukrainian nationalists against Poles:

At the turn of the 19th and the 20th centuries when the Ukrainian national awareness was formed and at the same time among the intellectual Ukrainian elite, mainly in the territory of the Polish Commonwealth under the Austrian partition, there were increasing desires to create a Ukrainian state. The First World War was an occasion to gain independence by Poland and the Ukraine. The Polish people thought about returning to the borders before the partitions whereas the Ukrainian elites living in these lands desired to have their own country. The military clash of the Polish and Ukrainian aspirations for independence happened in the years 1918-19 in the territory of Eastern Galicia, especially in the fights of Lvov, during which the Galician Ukrainians were defeated. Poland did not only maintain Galicia but also defended herself against the Bolsheviks’ onslaught in 1920, the consequences being the peace treaty with the USRR and USRS in Riga. Thus Volhynia and Eastern Galicia – the territories where Poles and Ukrainians had lived together for several centuries – were granted to Poland. The Ukrainian circles having independence ambition could not accept this situation and they organised themselves in anti-Polish organisations, which exerted considerable influence on the Ukrainian society: the Ukrainian Military Organisation (UWO) in the years 1920-29 and from 1929 the Organisation of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN). In the inter-war period both organisations conducted terrorist anti-state activities, i.e. sabotage, diversions, assassinations and anti-Polish agitation, especially conducted by the OUN. The anti-Polish activities were fought back by the Polish state, which having regained independence after 123 years of captivity, cared for preserving territorial integrity and its state of possession, and these activities evoked dissatisfaction of the Ukrainian masses and an increase in the popularity of the OUN. The conflict of the Ukrainian and Polish interests, which could not be overcome at that time, need not have led to the massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Galicia in the years 1943-46. The main reason for the massacre was the extremely fascist doctrine of Ukrainian nationalism of Dmytro Doncov, which the UON accepted as its ideology. To realise its national aims this ideology presumed using ruthlessness, fanaticism, hatred, the so-called creative violence, which was connected with the UON concept of the Ukrainian state as a homogenous country as far as the ethnic aspect was concerned. An example of the vision of the future country without any ethnic groups was the appeal of the Great Assembly of the Ukrainian Nationalists in August 1939, which postulated, ‘Ukraine for Ukrainians! Do not leave an inch of Ukrainian land in the hands of the enemies and aliens!’ Therefore, the OUN decided to struggle for the Ukrainian state by ruthless and merciless cleansing of non-Ukrainians, first of all the Polish population, from the territory of their future country, not excluding massacres of Poles. The OUN regarded World War II as a historical occasion to realise their desire and the first wave of crimes against the Polish population, conducted by both the Ukrainian nationalists and communists, rolled over in September 1939. The so-called Soviet order imposed after the invasion of the Soviet Union against Poland on 17 September stopped the massacres of Poles by the Ukrainians. The invasion of Germany against the Soviet Union in June 1941 was used by the OUN, which had actually collaborated with the Nazi Germany since 1933, to proclaim the Ukrainian state in Lvov, which was immediately annulled by the German authorities. Nevertheless, under the German occupation the situation favoured the OUN: the Germans tolerated the anti-Polish actions of the Ukrainians. So, commencing with June 1941 the OUN made intensive efforts among the Ukrainian society to evoke hatred towards the Polish neighbours with whom they had had proper relationships earlier and they tried to convince the Ukrainians that Poles had to be annihilated. That happened at the beginning of 1943 when the OUN created the so-called Ukrainian Insurgent Army.

The text comes from an interview with Ewa Siemaszko “The bleeding land of Volhynia” published on Sunday Catholics Magazine portal.

The genocide committed by driven by ill Nazi like ideology Ukrainian nationalists took place from 1939 to 1947 on the territories occupied by Germans and Soviet Poland. The ideology which drove Ukrainian nationalists (similary like Nazis ideology) considered Ukrainians as overmen. Ukrainian nationalists driven by the ideology wanted to use the WWII to create on the Polish territories its own “clean like a glass of water” Ukraine, ruled by “privileged cast” using “creative terror” towards the rest of the nation so called “animals”.
The June 1943 was the apogee of the genocide. Only on Sunday 11 July 1943 the Ukrainian nationalists attacked about 100 Polish villages and settlements murdering over 15 000 Poles. They chose Sunday because people were gathered at churches then. The churches were attacked, people were slaughtered inside the churches, and priests were murdered at altars.
Altogether as a result of the genocide committed by Ukrainian chauvinist from 1939 to 1947 over 200 000 Polish citizens lost their lives, including about 150 000 of Poles and several dozen thousand of the Polish citizens of other nationalities including Armenians, Czechs, Jews, Russians and Ukrainians who opposed the ill ideology or helped Poles.
Poles have been on these territories for centuries . A Russian chronicler Nestor says about Polish fortified towns (so called Grody Czerwienskie) Przemysl, Czerwien and others which were invaded in 981 by prince Vladimir the Great.
Then Poland was there for centuries. There was no Ukraine. These land were Polish till 1795 when Russia, Germany and Austria partitioned Poland and then returned to Poland for 20 years in 1919. Even during partitions of Poland - Poland, not Ukraine! was recognized on these territories by many states . Ukraine was only a region of Poland, never a country.
During WWII this was still Poland only occupied by Soviets and Nazis!!! Ukraine was created only in 1991.

Well, well, one gets away from the discussion for a few days only to notice that some pro-OUN/UPA (Western?) Ukrainian zombies have come out from their cosy (US & Canadian?) caves. But as far as elderly Ukrainian ex-Nazis are concerned, those caves don't seem to be so cosy anymore, as the likes of (Ivan) Demjaniuk or (Mykhailo) Karkoc are being 'dug out' to be put on trial... ;-)

Anyway, in fairness, from one side I'm tempted to ignore your comments (somehow I feel you may be kind of a dying out species...), but on the other hand some inaccuracies must be addressed.

Just to say that the Ukrainian nationalism in XX century was one of the most bloodthirsty ones in Europe, whose utmost cruel results - in particular, in terms of genocide of Poles & others in Volyn & Eastern Galicia - can be compared only with the cruelty of Croatian Ustasha.

But it had started long before WW2 with a concept of the fight for 'Great Ukraine'...

Yet in 1929 in one of the Ukrainian nationalistic leaflets published in then Polish Lwow we could read the following words:

"If blood is needed, we shall give a sea of blood! If terror is needed, we shall make it a hellish one!"

Shall we go on further and dig deeper to look at the atrocities committed by Cossacks/Ruthenians during the Khmelnytsky Uprising and Koliyivshchyna?

Oh, and in relation to the peculiar appeal of the user 'Oleksij' on not starting another PL-UA conflict now, well, that's just unbelievable that someone could think that:
(a) raising awareness about horrible crimes committed by OUN-UPA along with some Ukrainian peasants, and
(b) commemoration of Polish & non-Polish victims of those massacres,
should lead to another conflict.

Should it be the case, an Israeli-German war would've broken out long time ago, with Jews commemorating the victims of Nazi-Germany...

Regarding the whole situation we're seeing now, I strongly believe that it's the joint responsibility of: (1) Ukrainian elites, who for 20 years of existence of independent Ukraine haven't been able to condemn utter crimes of OUN-UPA against Poles, plus (2) the subsequent Polish governments after 1990, who have been dazzled going along the so-called 'Giedroyc concept' towards Ukraine and have been too soft with recollection (pointing out the West Ukrainian perpetrators) & commemoration of the victims of tragic history.

PS. The historical reenactment held last Saturday at Radymno was a spectacular and very touching event, with 300 reenactors from Poland, Czech Rep. & Slovakia involved, several thousand spectators on site and many more watching via YouTube. Certainly, the best recommendation prior to that event would've been the strange fear/anxiety of leftish media in Poland like 'Gazeta Wyborcza'. ;-)

PS2. I don't envy Ukraine, as it seems to me a very difficult task to develop a 'healthy' nation/society in quite a diverse (historically) territory with a huge victim-perpetrator heritage and some lack of courage (overall) to face difficult past. Despite all our internal problems, Poland seems better off in completing this task.

Gazeta wyborcza, the Polish newspaper I have the pleasure of reading once or twice a week, reports ("Podpalili wołyńską wieś", They Burnt A Volhynian Village - today's edition, p. 3) that in a fake village in Volyn, the Ukrainin assault was re-enacted yesterday.

A 1940s style Polish village had been rebuilt for the occassion, and the Ukrainian attack was put on stage in graphic detail. At the end, the village was set ablaze.

Three Polish TV stations (TVP, Trwam, Republika) filmed the re-enactement for later broadcast, and one (Polsat) had a live transmission.

As long as the events shown are historically accurate, all of this is fine with me, although I personally find such disneyfications of history tasteless.

The question that crossed my mind when reading the report was this, however: Could anybody imagine a similar re-enactment, broadcast live on Polish TV, of Polish crimes? Such as "Akcja Wisła" (during which tens of thousand of Ukrainians perished in 1947) or the Jedwabne massacre (where Jews were burnt alive in a barn during the war)?

It is a measure of a nation's civilization to not only "see the speck in [its] brother's eye, but" to also "notice the beam in [its] own eye" (Matthew 7:3).

This is the fullest version of last Saturday’s Radymno 1943 Volhynia massacre reconstruction I could find. Music by Kszesimir Dąbski . (Many great artists themselves originated or had parents/grandparents who originated from the Volhynia province, Jonasz Kofta is the first that springs to mind.)

As during that re-enactment Father Isakowicz-Zalewski (of Armenian Polish and Ukrainian origins) said, well actually it was the motto of the whole event: It is not for revenge, but remembrance that the victims appeal.

"It is not for revenge, but remembrance that the victims appeal."
__________________________

OK, but ...

a) ... would you accord the same right to others (Ukraininan victims of Akcja Wisła, German expellees etc.) without getting nervous hiccups when they display their own suffering and

b) ... could you fathom presenting acts of Polish wrongdoing in similarly graphic ways as incidents of Polish suffering?

Those were my questions, and I doubt you would answer them in the affirmative, judging by your past comments. But a change for the better is always welcome, of course. We are christians, after all. LOL

"Such as "Akcja Wisła" (during which tens of thousand of Ukrainians perished in 1947)"
Tens of thousand means at least 20 thousand. Taking into account that Operation Vistula transferred around 140 thousand Ukrainians and Lemkos the implied mortality rate would be around 10-15%. What are your sources? You wouldn't put a bullshit here, would you?

>You wouldn't put a bullshit here, would you?<
Josh?
The expert on Poland, Italy, Germany, US, Portugal, Netherlands, Luxembourg, France, now Ukraine, to name a few? Joshi who wined and dined with the most outstanding figures and statemen of the world? Who has friends everywhere? Who loves all the countries he blackmouths? No way!
If Josh says "tens of thousands" it is tens of thousands. Case closed. Period. LOL and cheers.

Yes, Germany's most boring and pc TV station and me – the new Teutonic Knights. LOL

But good that you agree that anything goes in terms of history shows on TV now.

After this week's live broadcast of the re-enactment of the Volyn massacre on Polish TV, you cannot possibly complain about a mini-series on German TV (Unsere Mütter, unsere Väter) in which all crimes but one (an attempted rape by a Russian soldier) are committed by Germans, and NONE by Poles, while there is plenty of Polish suffering and only some isolated incidents in which Poles make anti-Semitic remarks.

Would the prominent 'kresowiec' aka 'from Gdansk', together with the prominent Ukrainofobe Rev. Isakowicz-Zalewski participate in an re-enactment of the brutal destraction of Honchy Brid, a picturesque Ukrainian village near Kowel, and if so, in what capacity ?

Ukrainians of the Kowel area never forgot the massacre of the residents on the third day of the Epiphany celebrations in 1944. The local parish holds memorial services annually on the Epiphany holiday, remembering by name the slain villagers. The obelisk has been installed near the church with the following carved text:

“In memory of the Ukrainians from Honchy Brid and surrounding villages who perished during the Polish-Ukrainian conflict of 1943-44. Good Lord, you know them all by name. Forgive the sins of those who caused their deaths, too. Grant them resurrection and eternal life. May the memory of you, fellow countrymen, live forever. Your descendants”.

Two stellas containing the names of nearly a hundred Ukrainian villagers who died horrible death in their native homes.

Should 'from Gdansk' be willing to participate and light up ONE Hundred traditional candles, he will have to disclose his true identity well in advance.

Reading these comments one is invariably anxious to know when the 'kresoviaki' plan to stage (in the presence of Western media, of course) a full scale re-enactment of some of the acts so valiantly described by their Stefan Dambski in his personal memories under the title “KAT” (the EXECUTIONER) The author, a member of a penal detachment of the Polish Armija Krajowa, was a proud specialist in executing both collaborators and members of the Ukrainian resistance.

Let me tell you about a Polish native of Wołyń/Volyn/ Volhynia, the poet Zygmunt Rumel, a patriot who had been awarded the War Order of Virtuti Militari for valour fighting the Bolsheviks. When Poland was again invaded, and yes, in 1939 Volhynia became a Ukrainian SSR, he naturally joined Polish resistance movement. First in Warsaw and then from the spring of 1943 as a commander of the Polish Peasant Battalions in his home territory. When the UPA started murdering Polish civilians, he was especially delegated by the Polish government-in-exile, as a fluent Ukrainian speaker, to contact the UPA and get them to stop the massacres. Here I cite Wikipedia: “ On 7 July 1943, Rumel, together with officer Krzysztof Markiewicz (aka Czort), both dressed in military uniforms, aided by guide Witold Dobrowolski, contacted the Ukrainians. They were officially representing the Polish government. However, instead of peace talks, a different fate awaited them. Both were tortured for three days. Then, on Saturday 10 July, Rumel was tied to four horses and his body ripped apart. Markiewicz and Dobrowolski were killed in the same manner in the village of Kustycze, near the Volhynian town of Turzyska. The next day, Sunday 11 July 1943, was the bloodiest day yet of the Volhynian massacres, when armed Ukrainians attacked Polish settlements and churches, killing thousands of people, including infants, women and senior citizens.”

I would add that on Sunday 11 1943 more than a 100 villages (no, not less than 100 villagers, murdered by perhaps only God knows who) were massacred by the OUN-UPA. I would also add that before the war the town of Turzyska, not far from Kovel, had a 70% population of Jews. I would further add many more native Poles were massacred in that region than the, God rest their souls, Ukrainian inhabitants of that particular village you mention. Though one of your “heroes” did indeed perish in the region of Kovel, no, nearer Rivne, apparently at the hands of the NKVD, you know who I mean, yes, Dmytro Klyachkivsky, who first issued the order for genocide. Violence leads to violence. But the idea of genocide was never Polish.

I haven’t visited the village you mention, but I have visited Pidkamin. “During the Massacres of Poles in Volhynia, Pidkamen was a shelter for Poles, who escaped there to hide in the monastery. Some 2,000 people, the majority of whom were women and children, were living there when the monastery was attacked in mid-March 1944, by the Ukrainian Insurgent Army, cooperating with the Ukrainian SS.” When I was there, the Baroque Dominican Church was in as devastated a state as if the massacre had finished yesterday. Next door, the same psychiatrist hospital as in soviet times, only at the back was a beautifully restored piece by some Studite monks, but was there at least a plaque for those murdered? No. Instead guest-llloaas above informs how the very perpetrators are celebrated in Lviv today: http://wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/wiadomosci/5,114944,14322636,Ukraincy_celebr...

So what can we conclude: that unlike Leopold Staff and Jarosław Iwaszkiewicz, OUN-UPA did not appreciate Zygmunt Rumel’s poetry? No, I shouldn’t be so flippant. Because you claimed Father Isakowicz-Zalewski was a Ukrianophobe. Obviously you don’t know anything about him, and though he clearly says he is proud of his Ukrainian roots, it won’t make no difference to you. Viktor Polishchuk was a much more full-blooded Ukrainian, a great and sadly like many unappreciated friend of Poland, who understood you better than I, Isakowicz-Zalewski or even Zygmunt Rumel possibly could. He said something, none of us, non-communists would dare to say: that Operation Vistula was justified. Perhaps he delved deeper into your psyche than Rumel?

Some Polish anti-communists of an older generation than mine, would say that everything to the east of Poland was Asia. I am of a different opinion. Partly influenced by Giedroyć, and partly by the PC thought that I wouldn’t be so insulting towards Asia. And though by no stretch of the imagination could I consider myself to be one of them, it would be the greatest honour for me to be called a Kresowiak, like Mickiewicz, Słowacki, Fredro, Rumel and many, many more.

Though I am of a relatively low level, you with your sanctimonious nonsense about Polish Orthodox Bishops and next quite mocking tone about your compatriots’ tragedy are several storeys lower still. Concentrate on your own country: half wants to return to Mother Russia, the other half idolises genocidal national socialist killers.

Over 5 thousand people arrived at Radymno to watch the reconstruction of an episode of the Wolyn genocide - "Wolyn 1943. The victims are not calling for revenge but for commemorating"

Not far from here, in Hruszowice, there is a monument commemorating UPA, which for 20 years has been standing illegally. The Polish authorities don’t do anything about this. At the same time a dozen or so kilometers form here in Wiazownica, 120 people were murdered, the whole village was burnt and today there is no commemoration. I ask, where we live? Here we pay tribute to the slaughtered. The tribute is paid not by the President, the government, but by the Nation – said Andrzej Zapalowski, a former MEP, before the reconstruction of one episode of the Wolyn genocide in Radymno in Podkarpacie region.

Can't we - the Polish people, seek redress for the fellow countrymen, murdered during this gruesome genocide? We have the right and courage to talk about this and tell that this was a tragedy of both nations, also the Armenian, Czech and Jewish nations, who lived in Wolyn - explained the the originator of the reconstruction, Miroslaw Majkowski, the chairman of the Association of Historical Reconstruction X DOC in Przemysl.

Polish Roman Catholic and Armenian Catholic priest, Tadeusz Isakowicz-Zaleski reminded his father words, who lost his relatives during the genocide, that the people from Kresy were killed two times: not only physically but also by concealment of their tragedy.

He criticized the actions of the politicians in the Polish parliament, connected with the resolution at 70th anniversary of the Wolyn genocide, in which they wanted to avoid the term “genocide”.

This reconstruction is not directed against anybody. It is calling for the commemoration and also for waking up the politics, in order to stop lying, and tell the truth, and based on this truth we will build the real Polish-Ukrainian relationship, said father Tadeusz Isakowicz-Zaleski

The plans of the reconstruction have been criticized in among others “Gazeta Wyborcza” and by Piotr Tyma, the chairman of the Association of Ukrainians in Poland who appealed to the authorities of Radymno and Podkarpacie for canceling the reconstruction, but the organizers didn’t bend.

The reconstruction was organized by the Association of Historical Reconstruction X DOC in Przemysl, the mayor of Radymno, Stalowa Wola city and Municipal Culture Centre in Radymno.

First Akcja Wisla was conducted by communists instaled in Poland by Stalin thanks to the Western Allies approval. These Soviet puppets murdered Poles, especialy the Polish patriots and were totaly controled by and dependent on Moscow.

Secon give the source telling aobut the number of victims during Akcja Wisla.

Jedwabne was NOT a Polish crime. It was a German crime in which there were some Poles participating, and of those, some willingly, some due to duress, but it happened at the direction of German Einsattzgruppen soldiers, present in the village, whose sole mission was murdering Jews, and who represented the full might of the powerful German army, and which no Polish village could stand up to at this time.

The Germans in Jedwabne could have easily directed the killing of Poles instead, and directed that Jews take part in it, and I doubt that any Jews would have refused. In fact, in the Eastern part of Poland, where Jedwabne is located, Jews had already taken part in the persecution of Poles by the Soviets, whereby Poles were murdered or forcefully deported by the thousands to Siberia, where many met their deaths.

Not to sound like a Volyn Massacres justifier (I, and many other Ukrainian nationalists back at the time and now consider it wrong), but the main reason Poles make so much noise about OUN/UPA and the events back then, accusing the Ukrainian movements of being criminals is because of the nation-state advantage they had at the time - and as we all know, the state has a monopoly on violence. Surely, interwar Poland did not murder Ukrainians by the tens of thousands or millions, like the Soviet Union, but its policies towards us were most definitely not helping in peaceful cohabitation either. Polonisation, refusal to grant Galicia autonomous status and a sense of resentment for trying to establish a Ukrainian state in Galicia after WWI and the state chauvinism against the minorities played an important role in stirring radical nationalistic ideologies amongst Ukrainians. There is no smoke without fire.

On another note, I challenge the so-often-repeated rhetoric in the comments here, that OUN/UPA was 'national-socialist' (a term they themselves never used, their ideologues leaning towards actual fascism more!) or integrally racist or antisemitic - OUN and UPA had plenty of members who were ethnic Jews and at all points throughout the war tried to reach at least understanding with the Polish movement, at times even agreeing local ceasefires (their collaboration with the Poles culminated after the war in the joint Polish-Ukrainian offensive on Hrubieszów, which they won, temporarily taking the town from the Polish communist authorities). OUN indeed collaborated with the Germans at times, however, as soon as the Bandera faction made their goal of creating an independent Ukrainian state clear, he was arrested and put in a concentration camp, many other OUN leaders being executed altogether.

For the Ukrainians it is of course an uncomfortable fact, that the only forces defending the Ukrainian cause during that period were far from being democratic liberals, being caught up between two flames and were guilty of ethnic cleansing. Their actions of such kind must be condemned. Radical 'kresowiacy', though, and the 'anti-Bandera' lobby in Poland should not be too proud of themselves, though - interwar Poland was one of those flames.

On an ironic note, following the nationalistic discourse on both sides of the Polish-Ukrainian border I cannot help but notice the similarities in sentiment and rhetoric on both sides, based on the 'offended and oppressed by everyone' complex - Polish and Ukrainian nationalisms are essentially twins, the major difference being the former's success at establishing statehood after Versailles. And given the shared geographic area and the historical degree of intermixing, it was only a question of time before the Polish-Ukrainian conflict was to reach its apogee. Let's not start another one.

I don't share your view about 'twins' - it would be more appropriate if you had referred to 'patriotism' instead of nationalism. Every nation has its patriots because that is the fundamental definition of nationhood.
But just take a quick look at some of the utter nonsense promoted by some Polish posters who, parroting the old Moscow line, enjoy denying the existence of the Ukrainian nation. That's not just silly nationalism, that's plain Polish shouvinism, historic arrogance. These self-proclaimed 'experts' don't have a clue about European history or about historic evolution of the concept of a 'nation' all over the world. How long ago since the Italians, or Germans, or French, or many others became known as their respective nations ? The great majority of Ukrainians is patriotic, no matter where they were born or raised, but that's not nationalism.

You are right in referring to Polish state chauvinism even though there are plenty of examples of individual and group chauvinism that has been reflected in criminal behaviour punisheable under any civilised law.
An example is recently published book by a Polish publisher "Osrodek Karta" supposedly representing personal memories by Stefan Dambski under the strikingly proud title "KAT" ('the EXECUTIONER'). The author grew up in a peasants family, in an ethicallly and cultirally diverse environment, apparenly studied in Lviv and in 1942 joined a penal detachment of the Polish Home Army (Armija Krajowa) who's stated task was to execute Nazi collaborators and members of the Ukrainian resistance. That's how he assumed his 'proud' profession of an 'Executioner' !
Its not clear what rank this 'KAT' has been promoted to or how many medals he has been awarded, buthe obviously must have had plenty to be proud about.
(Any similarity to professional executioners employed for many decades by the NKVD-GPU-Smersh, etc. in Moscow's Lubyanka prison is clearly incidental )

No wonder some Polish commentators were rather critical of the publication of Dambski’s 'heroic' life story as it tends to heavily undermine the ‘heroic’ image of the wartime Polish underground presented by most Polish authors.

Dambski’s book will remain of little political value but it does offer unique personal reminiscences of an executioner who apparently enjoyed every opportunity to see his victims collapse once Dambski had pulled a trigger. How many Dambski's are there willing to publish their 'heroic' experiences as executioners ?

Not only were they burning Orthodox Churches (140 - 150), but they also held up to 10,000
Ukrainian political prisoners in concentration camps. They forced Orthodox
and Eastern Rite Christian Ukrainians to convert to Roman Catholicism against
there will as part of a long term plan to forcefully assimilate the
Ukrainian. The Poles closed most Ukrainian schools and forced the students to
study in Polish only. In summary in direct violation of the Treaty of
Versaille the Poles were engaged in a very brutal program of pacification and
forced assimilation of the Ukrainian people (which by the way is a definition of genocide according to the United Nations). Further Let us not forget that
the Polish started WW2 when they joined the NAZIs in partitioning
Czechoslovakia. Yes, up until 1938 the Poles had a fascist regime which
viewed itself on as an equal to NAZI Germany and that is why the Poles simply
annexed parts of Slovakia when Czechoslovakia was being forcefully annexed by
NAZI Germany. Further the Polish government negotiated with NAZI Germany the
partition of the Soviet Union for several years beginning in the early 1930's
and up until 1938. The Poles wanted Soviet Ukraine for themselves citing the
wish to have a Greater Poland from sea (Baltic) to sea (Black). The policy of
continued forced assimilation was to be extended to Soviet Ukraine. These
negotiations stopped in late 1938 when they Poles realized that the NAZIs
weren't going to negotiate any new geopolitical reality in which an
independent Poland was bigger than NAZI Germany.

The point is that long before the 1943 events in Volyn, the Poles had been involved in a systematic campaign of genocide (UN definitions - not mine) against the Ukrainian peoples.

There will be a change of government in Ukraine in the next two years at which point it is hoped that the Ukrainians will expose to the world these genocidal policies. Perhaps the Germans will help the Ukrainians to better expose the nastiness of the Polish Republic towards none ethnic Poles.

No, I didn't read MozartA posts. You can ask him youself, after you clearly point to him where is the hatred. Just as I have clearly shown at which point you, you not some other person, preach hatred founded on falsehood. Here it is, again:

>Yura2009: Just a few years ago the Council of Bishops of the Orthodox Church in Poland has announced that, after a thorough investigation of the circumstances of their tragic death at the hands of the blood-thirsty Polish 'heroes', the following Ukrainian priests will be forever remembered as martyrs for the Christian faith:
1. Rev. Ihnatiy, the primate monk of the Jablochyn monastery, murdered 10 August 1942 /.../<

I did not react with pretended indagnation, Didomyk's way in 'Sawa's case', but demonstrated that it is untrue, and additionally wrote a post informing you about my personal - and Polish state's in general - readiness to accept own mistakes and misdeeds along the whole 1000+ history of Polish statehood. I expressed hope that the state of Ukraine, and the mainstream of citizens in Western Ukraine, will one day accept own wrongdoings and honour the victims, no matter own or former enemy, the way it is done in Poland and/or Germany, and I would say in European Union in general, in spite of existing differences in viewing the history. In short - I have provided a chance for you to backtrack. You've ignored that post.

However I am not willing to accept your and Joshua Tree's lies (notorious in the latter's case) about blood-thirsty Polish heroe's while the evidence shows something else.
And here comes commentator polyfilaman, who is at least right in one point - there's already at least one German who is helping the poorly informed or/and voluntarily blinkered Ukrainians to expose all the "Polish nastiness", as long as it serves his cause to take off some historical weight from his motherland.

Honestly, when people allow themselves to sink as low as you notoriously do by insulting everybody in the vilest of forms, I start feeling sorry for them. No class whatsoever - and apparently a lot of pent-up frustration. Sad.

And no, I don't generalize. I know Poland too well to think your case can be generalized.

"Honestly, when people allow themselves to sink as low as you notoriously do by insulting everybody in the vilest of forms"

... or straying onto the Charlemagne blogs to assess the status of the subsidiarinosc scrounge, and deleting posters who accurately point out the vital but sickly foundation of the "EU" funding - the decades of manipulation of German war guilt, an "argument" for her "fine union" which your 'pen-friend' never fails to deploy.

PS - This was her only non-chatroom offering on the Lagarde blog - a pseudo-intellectual “heavyweight” opener, a taster … “That is why the meaning of EU integration which greatly exceeds simplistic understanding it through economy only” (ha- ha- ha- ha!) …. followed by some surprising candour - a parasitic recommendation:
" I can't see another way of prolonging the EU integration without creating a stabile mechanism of sharing the wealth produced by all Eurozone members inside one economical organism they are operating in”… what a corker!

Well of course she wouldn’t would she? Wealth redistribution IS her “fine union”.
Poland on the economic level meanwhile will continue to export its high unemployment to occupy the prison services of countries like Britain, carrying out this “fine union’s” work in further poisoning international relations in Europe.
On the political level, ham-fisted windbags like “everyone-owes-Poland” Sikorski will continue to do a great job in diminishing the low credibility of the “EU”.

I would like to mention that the so-called Action of Wisla was after the war, only partly as a as a retribution against the Ukrainians, who had the UPA Secret Army in this Eastern part of Poland. About 200 people died during the dislocation of Lemkas from East to far North-West of PL. They were rebelling against the Polish rule in the teritory which was Polish before and after the WWII (already limited by the Yalta Treaty, if this can be called a treaty). This is not properly referred to in the text. Second, the Polish revenge (10-20 000 Ukrainian victims) came only after more than 100 000 - 120 000 of Poles were killed by the Ukrainians the year before, often by using most barbarious methods. This was an ethnic cleansing, to say the least. This remark should correct the principal inaccuracy of the article. Unfortunately, asking Ukrainians historians (from e.g. Lvov) does not help much, as their historiography stands decades behind the Polish correspondant.

I have promoted, at the Jagiellonian University in Krakow, two Ukrainians Ph.D. students (one coming from an old Polish family from near Lvov)and also, had two scholars from Western Ukraine, what used to be part of Poland for centuries. Three of them sttled in PL. Everything was OK, but their ignorance of historical facts was paralysing. This is said by a professor who has no roots in Kresy (now Western Ukraine)and no prejudices (my wife is partly Jewish).

So much about putting in the same basket the Polish vs. the Ukrainian resentments. Keep distorting the truth and think that your interpretation is the correct one after talking just to one historian from Warsaw and one from Lvov. Good British postcolonnial superior journalism! js, Krakow, PL

The most of the slaughters of the summer 1943 took place on Sundays, when villagers gathered in the churches. Nationalists took advantage of the gatherings. The churches were surrounded, villagers were taken away and slaughtered. On 11 July 1943, dozens of Polish villages were attacked; the whole July saw at least 530 Polish villages massacred. It is very difficult to estimate the total number of victims, because many villages and towns were murdered literally to the very last man, nobody was left to tell the story. Very cautious estimations say that at least 60 to 100 thousands of Poles were murdered. Polish resistance reacted in self- defense and in revenge, but it was incomparable because most grown up men were already fighting somewhere else.

This was a slaughter. We have to protect Europe from the implementation of Swoboda party propaganda that without this slaughter the independence of Ukraine was impossible.

I have no intention to justify the massacre of civilians by Ukrainian armed formations in Volyn, but Poles pretend that their own armed formations did not commit identical crimes on Ukrainian civilians in Volyn and eastern and southern Poland, including in those regions where UPA units did not exist. When someone who does not know the WHOLE truth about those tragic events reads Polish comments here, his natural reaction is that of indignation and disgust for those bloodthirsty monsters called Ukrainians. But, esteemed ignorant readers, the WHOLE truth is different! Before the massacres of summer 1943 there were numerous massacres of Ukrainian civilians by Polish forces, such as in the village of Krasnyy Sad near Horokhiv, which was razed to the ground (and never rebuilt) in April 1943, on Orthodox Easter Monday. Literally several people survived, whereas the rest including babies, pregnant women, and old people were brutally murdered. What about Voyutychi, Chornyy Lis, Honchyy Brid (http://www.day.kiev.ua/en/article/day-after-day/volyn-honors-victims-hon...) and dozens of other Ukrainian villages in Volyn destroyed by the Poles complete with their population? Why are the Poles pretending that they never heard about the villages of Sahryn or Pawlokoma which met with the same tragic fate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paw%C5%82okoma_massacre)? After all, these villages do not lie in some far-away land, they're in present-day Poland and are a couple of hours drive from Warsaw! There will NEVER be reconciliation until the Poles have admitted that their armed units committed the same atrocities on Ukrainians!

Writing his regular column in the World Affairs Journal prof. Alexander Motyl
attempts to find a neutral ground on the main issues related to the Polish-Ukrainian conflict.
Some readers are likely to agree with some of his views, others will be tempted to 'prove' that A. Motyl is wrong in attempting to place the conflict in a much broader world context. Whatever your views, his article is well worth reading in full.

"Who should condemn the violence and killings? The answer is obvious: everyone. Whoever is concerned with violations of human rights in any part of the world has a moral obligation to condemn all violations of human rights in all parts of the world. But be careful. Human rights entail a huge responsibility: for your condemnation of violence by Ukrainians and Poles to be credible, you must be no less condemnatory of violence perpetrated by Americans, Russians, Germans, French, Chinese, Jews, Palestinians, Turks, Brazilians, Paraguayans, and everybody else. If only Ukrainian or Polish violence bothers you, than you are in fact being indifferent to human rights and pursuing a political agenda."

"Who should apologize? It can’t be “Poland” or “Ukraine,” because neither state existed in 1943 (although there was a Polish government-in-exile in London) and neither existing state has the right to speak on behalf of individual Poles or Ukrainians in 1943... It can’t be “the Poles” or “the Ukrainians” either, because collective guilt does not exist.

"Obviously, as in all cases of wrongdoing, the people who should apologize are the people who committed the wrongdoing. Truth and reconciliation committees along the lines of those in post-apartheid South Africa might be the way to go for both Poland and Ukraine: let the few surviving perpetrators confess and tell the truth and then go home.

"Finally, the Ukrainian and Polish political organizations that claim lineage with their wartime undergrounds might want to issue apologies. They’ll protest on the grounds that apologies would sully their sacrifices on behalf of the cause. But they’d be wrong. The best way to underscore that their principles are grounded in genuine liberation and genuine freedom is to condemn unsavory aspects of their pasts and thereby signal that their visions of national liberation rest on an unwavering commitment to human rights for all."

“There will NEVER be reconciliation until the Poles have admitted that their armed units committed the same atrocities on Ukrainians!”
There will never be reconciliation as long as so many Ukrainians commemorate and consider heroes a bunch of thugs who due to their fascist integral nationalism started genocide of Poles and other non-Ukrainians living in the south-eastern part of Second Polish Republic.

Don't feed the trolls. I know what I'm saying because I've been doing it on EA half the time. But you have to realise that if someone personally associates himself with any really serious crime, for instance genocide, they naturally wish to say that the other side was no better. Thus German wartime movies of the last 30 years gradually falling into this mode (e.g. Our Mothers, Our Fathers). Of course, the producers have always condemned Nazism, but... So too certain posters who are overly concerned about the demolition of Orthodox church buildings in the Chełm and Polesie region in 1938 (significantly still part of Poland and still with Orthodox churches), but treat the Volhynia and eastern Galicia (where there no longer are many synagogues or Armenian churches) acts of unbelievably atavistic genocide as supposedly something of less concern than a drop in the ocean to millions of Ukrainians and non-Ukrainians. Of course they are against calling Stepan Bander a "national hero", but... And finally we have the Putinites, who invariably revel in any discussion that does not specifically concern soviet genocide and other crimes, though of course those facts will never go away, and of course Putin himself, even today is adding to the tally of human rights crimes. But seeing as this discussion should concern what happened on a particular Sunday in July 1943, though it also happened on other Sundays and Roman Catholic holidays that year and in previous and later years, up to 1947 at least, so let's just discuss what really happened, and not feed the trolls.

Correction again: Podlasie, which is even further north (Polish, Belarusian and Lithuanian territory today) though apparently some Ukrainian nationalists are still nurturing certain yearnings there, too.

"Correction again: Podlasie, which is even further north (Polish, Belarusian and Lithuanian territory today) though apparently some Ukrainian nationalists are still nurturing certain yearnings there, too.."

Sure enough you need to issue another 'Correction' to honestly admit an undisputable fact that ... 'some Polish nationalists' continue to live in their dreamland 'nurturing certain yearnings' with respect to the Lithuanian, Belarus and Ukrainian territories. Indeed, such 'yearning' are rather common in any discussion that in one way or another brings up the history of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and the related musings about Poland as a 'mocarstwo' stretching from the Baltic Sea to the Black Sea.
By the way, have you ever spent the time and effort re-reading your own posts ?

"Thus German wartime movies of the last 30 years gradually falling into this mode (e.g. Our Mothers, Our Fathers). Of course, the producers have always condemned Nazism, but..."

____________________________

You haven't - by your own account - even watched that ONE film, and now you're already an expert on "German wartime movies of the last 30 years".

Amazing!

No wonder "Trwam" and "Radio Marija" can sell their audience more or less anything, with standards like these ... .

"Unsere Mütter, unsere Väter" is indeed a strong anti-Nazi and anti-war film, quite typical for a society that has become the most pacifist among the bigger Western nations (and understandably so, if you ask me).

Correct yourself, o closet worshipper of Stepan Bandera and Roman Shukhevych, “objective” commentator of national socialist “attributes” (znamiona) supporting the genocidal dream of creating an integral nation state. You claim to have read Timothy Snyder’s Reconstruction of Nations, so you should know that międzymorze, alternatively called the Jagiellonian policy or Prometheism were the musings of Jozef Piłsudski and like-minded politicians such as Henryk Józewski, which actually had nothing to do with “mocarstwo” imperialism, but the exact opposite: promoting nationalist independence movements among the non-Russian peoples inhabiting the borders of the Soviet Union. It went far beyond the Baltic and the Black Sea (don’t be so parochially narrow minded). It was a geopolitical concept whose ultimate purpose was to create a federation of sovereign states of formerly subjugated peoples stretching far beyond the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth’s most extensive borders. Stretching from Finland to Yugoslavia and even further east than Georgia, by no stretch of the imagination was this an imperialist design.
Whether this essentially noble geopolitical musing was feasible or not is another matter, but needless to say it was anathema to the Soviet Union, Nazi German and another other former empire as well as little ole national socialist, as yet only terrorist pro integral nation state OUN. So too Symon Petliura, the Ukrainian leader who also favoured this project, was assassinated by the Soviets in Paris in 1926.

But I agree with Timothy Snyder, that the views put forward by the Polish National Democrats, most notably Roman Dmowski, though less attractive, were ultimately more realistic. Nation states had to be democratic, therefore they could not feasibly be a multicultural hotchpotch with only a likeminded elite. Whether we like it or not, this will always lead to social and political friction and ultimately instability.

The geopolitical policy differences of opinion among Polish leaders was already very apparent during the Peace of Riga negotiations in 1921. The Polish victory over Bolshevik Russia was so resounding that their troops were further east and they could have claimed and received far more territory than the Polish delegate Stanisław Grabski actually negotiated. Much to the disappointment of some compatriots, he did so because he subscribed to Roman Dmowski’s view. New nations in the east, most notably the Lithuanians and Ukrainians, had emerged and therefore Poland’s borders should be shifter further west. This was not originally Stalin’s idea, but it suited his purpose after WWII.

Józef Piłsuski’s federalist approach effectively died with him in 1935. If you read Timothy Snyder, you would understand that even Piłsudski’s most ardent followers effectively started following National Democrat policies, sometimes much too brutally (the destruction of the churches in 1938 included). The use of force was wrong, and I would have to humbly acknowledge Andrey Sheptytsky’s objections, because he was a wise man (sorely missed today). But the same does not apply to those who belittle the unspeakable acts of genocide committed by Ukrainian national socialists during and after the war.

I have plenty of objections to the Sanacja regime, not least because it did nothing to protect Poles systematically murdered by the NKVD on the Soviet side of the border just before the war.

But where you’re most wrong is in your description of Polish yearnings today. The former eastern borderlands are a part of our history, very distant and also very recent, so sentiments are quite natural and yet in no way can they be interpreted as Revanchism. The rights of Poles who still inhabit once major centres of Polish culture such as Wilno and Lwów (Vilnius and Lviv today) should be respected as those of any native, because they have always lived in these cities. However, up until 2010 Polish politicians from left to right, from even that wretched Aleksander Kwaśniewski to Lech Kaczyński, followed a foreign policy defined by Jerzy Giedroyć: to full-heartedly support the national independence of former Soviet Republics. Please note Alexander Kwaśniewski’s support for the Orange Revolution, please note Lech Kaczyński’s relations with virtually all the leaders of post-communist states, as was evidenced in Georgia 2008.

Relations suddenly deteriorated with Polish foreign policy being taken over by someone as arrogant, obnoxious and incompetent as Radek Sikorski, which also coincided with Obama’s reset, in short a foreign policy was replaced by no policy at all. And it is a result of the lack of wise and competent leaders on all sides that all the vile chauvinisms now crawl out of the woodwork, just like it took the chaos and mayhem of a world war for a bunch of genocidal fanatics to have their five minutes of “glory” – i.e. mass slaughter. But they contributed absolutely nothing to Ukrainian independence.

Hopefully wiser leaders will return, but even Lech Kaczyński would not follow Geidroyc’s policy so blindly as to overlook undeniable facts, nor would that great conciliator Andrey Sheptytsky.

If I could,I'd remove this last post. Who am I to judge a man, but there were certainly priests who did a hell of a lot more to to save others, Jews for instance, and paid the highest price. I don't think Andrey Sheptytsky was a saint.

"Relations suddenly deteriorated with Polish foreign policy being taken over ..." .. by somebody from Gdansk ??

Kyiv, July 19 (Interfax-Ukraine) – A District Court in Kyiv has sentenced a Polish citizen to two years in prison for making a false bomb threat against a plane at Kyiv International Airport (Zhuliany), press services reported on Friday.

A 48-year-old Polish citizen, boarding an airplane en route from Kyiv to Katowice, told the flight attendant that there was a bomb in his suitcase.

Law enforcers immediately arrived at the scene, the departure of the aircraft was delayed for four hours, and all passengers were evacuated. No explosive devices or substances were found on board.

The man later admitted that he was drunk and that the bomb threat had been a joke.

Unconfirmed reports have it that the man claimed to be ... from Gdansk !!

Hi Gdańsk!
I read your historic part and thought - well said. And then you had to add some contemporary context and spoil the fun ;) As usual :))

>Relations suddenly deteriorated with Polish foreign policy being taken over by someone as arrogant, obnoxious and incompetent as Radek Sikorski<

The arrogant, obnoxious and incompetent Sikorski - one of the best politicians Poland had post 1989 - has suddenly improved relations with all European continent's heavyweights, apart UK, plus he has introduced some responsibility and pragmatism on the CEE interface to replace endless carte blanche for some of the neighbours. All that was done simultaneously. I wish everyone FA minister such incompetence.

Well, of course as far as your general appraisal of Radek is concerned, I couldn’t disagree with you more.

By arrogant and obnoxious, I was generally referring to our eastern neighbours, Lithuania and Ukraine. Please note the complaints posted below regarding obtaining visas in Ukraine, and you must have heard all the “love” flowing between Poland and Lithuania in recent years. No doubt, the attitude of some Lithuanians is also very much to blame, but RS didn’t exactly rise above the bait. “Petulant” is what even some of his supporters say. On the other hand, RS’s ministry couldn’t be more obliging as far as Lukashenko’s regime is concerned, e.g. passing on confidential info regarding Belarusian democratic leaders. And of course, if you know some history, you’ll that when you’re nice to such people, they’re bound to reciprocate. Why, only a couple of days ago the Belarusian KGB cut down and took away a cross set up to commemorate the Polish Home Army leader Anatol Radziwonik, alias Olech.

According to Poland’s greatest political minds, it is good relations with states normally bullied by, as you put it, “heavyweights” that our country should take the most care to nurture. Obviously your, Tusk’s and Radek’s view is different . The post-war dream of many Europeans was to have a continent without “heavyweights”, but unfortunately that’s obviously not longer true. Instead we have just one heavyweight, the “reluctant hegemon”, i.e. Germany. Here, I agree, Radek’s attitude isn’t arrogant, no, it’s servile and fawning. While the rest of Europe is increasingly resenting German economic dominance, Radek and Donek stand out as prime toadies. Do you think that improves our country’s image? Do you think it’s improved German attitudes towards Poles and Poland and her history? What is new in Our Mothers, Our Fathers is that German public television has for the first time in history had the gall to insult the Polish Home Army (AK).

People who disregard those who are weaker, and suck up to those who are stronger do not deserve any respect. Appeasement is always wrong, it’s not even a policy. Neville Chamberlain had excellent relations with the continent’s heavyweights, but he didn’t go down well in history. Why would Barcelona football club have the haughtiness to leave 30,000 Polish ticket holders in the lurch? So far Polish history with all her not inconsiderable faults has been the exact opposite of Western appeasement, which the ante mural could never afford. It is the source of our national pride. There’s another heavyweight to the northeast I deliberately avoided to mention, but Radek’s approach to that heavyweight, including the people he employed in Polish diplomacy are very relevant. Much too much to write about here, suffice to say a ministry that loses the most intimate belongings of a government minister (e.g. a wedding ring) can hardly be considered competent.

But what I’m saying is all too obvious. In democracies nothing is permanent. Contrary to what you believe, the political careers of Donald Tusk and Radosław Sikorski are in irreversible decline. Very soon they’ll be history, and then we can return to this discussion.

It is mandatory to keep challenging the apparently very short historic memories of most Polish 'kresovians' - whose nationalistic memories fail when it comes to recall the mass murders of all Ukrainian residents in the Chelm area villages of Sahryn, Pawlokoma and other settlements. The names of many thousands of victims of the barbarity of the Polish AK in 1943-44 may have been lost, but at least the memory of some prominent Ukrainian priests, who were brutally murdered by the competing 'heroes' of Polish AK and Armija Ludowa only because they were Ukrainian priests, these names have been preserved.

Just a few years ago the Council of Bishops of the Orthodox Church in Poland has announced that, after a thorough investigation of the circumstances of their tragic death at the hands of the blood-thirsty Polish 'heroes', the following Ukrainian priests will be forever remembered as martyrs for the Christian faith:
1. Rev. Ihnatiy, the primate monk of the Jablochyn monastery, murdered 10 August 1942
2. Rev. Serhiy Zakharchuk, a priest at Nabrozh, brutally murdered 6 May, 1943
3. Rt. Rev. Pawlo Shwayka, parish priest at Hrabovec who, together with his wife Yoanna were brutally murdered 28 August 1943
4. Rev. Lew Korobchuk, parish priest at Laskiv, brutally murdered 10 March 1944
5. Rev. Petro Ohryzko, parish priest at the village of Chortovec, brutally murdered 10 April 1944
6. Rev. Mykola Holec, parish priest at Novosilky, brutally murdered 2 April, 1944
7. Rt. Rev. Vasyl Martysh, who perished on 4 May 1945, brutally murdered by the Polish AK 'heroes' nine months after the Chelm region had been 'liberated' by the Polish Armija Ludowa and their Red Army allies.

Eternal memory to the priests and to all martyrs of Polish uncivilised brutality.

"Just a few years ago the Council of Bishops of the Orthodox Church in Poland has announced that, after a thorough investigation of the circumstances of their tragic death at the hands of the blood-thirsty Polish 'heroes"..."

If that was indeed the case, the council would have been headed by Metropolitan Sawa, a proven agent of the communist authorities not only in Poland, but even more so in Moscow. His recorded actions were primarily against other Orthodox priests and prelates, not only in Poland but also those of other nationalities living abroad, e.g. Constantinople (Istanbul), simply because they tried to be independent of Moscow. All Christian churches were infiltrated by communist agents, but none so much as the Orthodox churches - a consequence of the Byzantine Church's respect for temporal authority. Therefore in their case infiltration almost invariably reached the very top. "A thorough investigation" in that particular council would have to first and foremost reveal these facts.

As for Armia Ludowa (People's Army) and Armia Krajowa (AK - Home Army), they were two completely different armies, with completely different chains of command and completely different objectives. As far as the AK was concerned, the sole objective, right until the end of the war was to protect Polish citizens and defeat the German invader, including their lackeys and collaborators. There were indeed AK hit squads, who following in absentia legal trials, were sent out to execute predominantly Polish (usually Volksdeutsche) collaborators. But I've never heard of them being sent out to execute any priests.

What one poster above stated about the AK and UPA jointly taking Hrubieszów (after the end of the war with Germany) is actually true, but it should be immediately added that the AK commander had actually broken the orders of his superiors. During the war with Germany the AK did not fight communists and actually helped the Soviets take Wilno and Lwów (to be subsequently rounded-up by the NKVD).

What's your point, Yura? The first name from your list - monk Ignacy from Jabłeczna Monastery was killed by Germans. I fear to go checking down the list, becasue I like you. AK is not AL. And so on. So what's the point?

Is that the best you can do, from Gdansk ? Blackmailing bishops ? Where do you get your directions from ? What in the hell do you know about each and every bishop of the Council of the Autonomous Orthodox Church in Poland ?

Pardon, Forlana, but if oyu have any evidence who killed ANY of the Orthodox priests why have you NOT advised the Council of Bishops ?

Indeed, what's your point in questioning the evidence in the hands of the Orthodox Church in Poland ?

As to "AK is not AL" - that's well known. But please be aware that the execution squads, be it AK, AL, or Red partisans, etc. were never in the habit of first presenting their photo-IDs listing their true names and ranks.
Looks like you might jave been a bit confused on some parts of conspiratorial operations ?

Yura, yes, I am now deeply confused. I don't question Orthodox Church's of Poland evidence and decisions, on the opposite I respect them in exactly the same way/level/manner as e.g. Polish RCC Episcopate. (That level is not extremely high, to be frank, but that's another matter).

What I question is your motivation in presenting a list of - as you claim- murdered OC's monks/priests and blaming "Poles" for their deaths (which is outwardly untrue after checking just the first name from the list).

Again - I question _your_ motivation. What's the point? If you want to stress that Polish state throughout it's 1000+ years long history used violence against individuals it recognized as the enemies of the state, or that it made many mistakes, sometimes extremely grave, throughout that period, or that it was unjust, short-sighted, hypocritical, un-eglalitarian, non-democratic, used assasination, spying etc. - that's no big news. I'd say that's ONE of the reasons the state of Poland is around for that long. But - to the best of my knowledge - the state of Poland has never employed mass murder or genocide to obtain own goals. To the best of my knowledge the state of Ukraine never used these methods, either. Unfortunately, a military organization consisiting of Ukrainians - did use genocide to reach their political goal of creating monoethnic Ukrainian state. They failed, though killed some 100 000 - 120 000 Poles in the process.

I hope we agree that mistreatment of Ukrainian - or earlier "Rus" peasants, before Ukrainian identity evolved to it's 19th-20th century form, by Polish state and/or by many non-Ukrainian citizens of Polish state, including killing of many Ukrainians recognized as enemies of Polish state, do not in any way compare/justify the mass-killing of civilians in Volyn, the article under which we discuss is devoted to.

One of the many differences between UPA and AK was that UPA was just one genocidal fascist killing bunch enjoying the gore of mass murder while AK had special small units for targeted assasinations.
Capisce, you Banderite propagandist?

As a quick search on the internet revals, there is no evidence that one of the people you mention was NOT killed by Poles, but "by Germans" as Forlana claims.

Not that it mattered - I (German-American, German mum, US dad) have no problem acknowledging the crimes the Germans committed under the Nazi regime, and also against Ukrainians, and one additional crime wouldn't make a difference.

The particularity about Forlana's argumentation, however, is that ANY Polish crime is

- either blamed on someobody else,
- or merely accessory to a foreign crime,
- or an individual act, ...

... but never anything Poles should feel collectively responsible for.

The bottom line: Poland (the nation) did never wrong, even when that is obviously false, such as in the case of the Akcja Wisła mass deportation/murder of Ukrainians after the war.

That is old-fashioned nationalism in its most primitive form. Nauseating.

In 1980 Solidarność (Solidarity) really meant something in Poland. Orthodox members of that 10 million strong movement turned to bishop Sawa for his blessing. He told them to get lost and subsequently joined PRON, a “patriotic” organisation that supported Jaruzelski’s imposition of martial law.

I don’t know anything about the Council of Bishops of the Orthodox Church in Poland issuing such a statement , but if it did, it’d be typical of communist (and now ZDF) propaganda, which has nothing to do with the truth. The AK was part of the Polish Secret State, answerable to the London based Polish Government- in-Exile. The AK was the largest and best run Allied underground organisation in German occupied Europe. If a detachment broke the law, for instance revenge killings against Ukrainians in territories where the UPA had slaughtered Polish villagers, this fact was acknowledged as contrary to Polish government policy. The AK was fighting on the side of civilization, the genocidal UPA wasn’t.

Other churches in Poland, including the RC and Lutheran churches also still have problems with communist agents, but that’s neither here nor there. Nor is the list of 7 priests Yura claims were murdered by the AK over the space of 3 or 4 years. Not even that could possibly justify mass murder of many thousands of innocent peasants and priests. You and Yura sound like right-wing members of PRON. As the families of those murdered say today: “It is not for revenge, but remembrance that the victims appeal”.

"and one additional crime wouldn't make a difference."
For Germans during the WW2 - absolutely agree , one more Untermensch murdered made no difference to them, unless there was some economic loss. However since 1945 they have been working very very dilligently to shift the blame on other nations.

Your narrow nationalism does not justify your unwarranted and primitive personal attack on His Beatitude Sawa (Hrycuniak), Archbishop of Warsaw, Metropolitan and Head of the Autocephalous Orthodox Church in Poland. True to the commonly used communist methodology, you are attempting to discredit the Head of the Orthodox Church, who is NOT a party to these discussions, only because you don't like some message. That's hitting 'below the belt'. Shame on you!

As 99% of the readers are obviously unfamiliar with the distinguished Orthodox Church leader, below are facts about his life and positions held in the Orthodox Church as stated by Wiki http://orthodoxwiki.org/Sawa_(Hrycuniak)_of_Warsaw

His Beatitude Sawa (Hrycuniak), Archbishop of Warsaw and Metropolitan of All Poland, is the current head of the autocephalous Church of Poland. He is the eighth hierarch to head the Polish church since it was granted autocephaly by the Patriarch of Constantinople in 1924. As Archbishop of Warsaw and Metropolitan of All Poland, his See is in Warsaw at the Cathedral of Mary Magdalen Equal to the Apostles.

Born on April 15, 1938, in Sniatycze (near Zamosc), Michael Hrycuniak completed a spiritual seminary and then enrolled in a Master of Arts in Theological Studies in 1957, graduating in 1961.

Michael began lecturing at the Orthodox Spiritual Seminary in Warsaw in 1961, and since 1962 he lectured at the Christian Theological Academy (ChAT), something he has continued to do to this day. In 1964, Michael was ordained to the diaconate. In 1966, Dcn Michal received his Ph.D. in Theology from the Orthodox Theologic Faculty of the University of Belgrade, after which he was tonsured with the name Sawa. In the same year, Hdcn Sawa was ordained to the priesthood and was made director of the office of the Metropolitan of Warsaw. Fr Sawa was elevated to archimandrite in 1970, and was named prior of St Onufry Monastery, Jableczna.

On the basis of his qualifying thesis, Archim. Sawa became a reader of Orthodox dogmatic theology, and received a Ph.D. in Orthodox dogmatic theology. He was also appointed to the Chair of Dogmatic and Moral Theology at the Christian Theological Academy. In 1979, Archim. Sawa stopped lecturing at the Orthodox Spiritual Seminary in Warsaw. In the same year, Archim. Sawa was consecrated to the episcopacy as head of the Lodz-Poznan diocese. In 1981, he was transferred to the Bialystok-Gdansk diocese. In 1987, Bp Sawa was elevated to Archbishop.

In 1990, the president of the Republic of Poland nominated Abp Sawa to be a professor of theology; since March of that year, he has held the Orthodox Theology Chair at the University of Bialystok. In 1994, having formed the Orthodox Ordinariate of the Polish Army, under the blessing of the Holy Synod, he was nominated by the Minister of National Defence as the Elder of Orthodox Ordinariate of the Polish Army, entitled a Field Bishop. In 1996, he was made a brigadier-general.

In 1998, he ceased his role in the Polish army. In January, due to an illness suffered by Metropolian Bazyli, the Holy Synod made Archbishop Sawa the Locum Tenens of the Metropolitan throne. On May 12, 1998, the Holy Synod unanimously elected Archbishop Sawa as Archbishop of Warsaw, Metropolitan of All Poland. The enthronement took place on May 31, 1998.

>Didomyk to fromGdańsk: you are attempting to discredit the Head of the Orthodox Church, who is NOT a party to these discussions, only because you don't like some message. <

Didomyk, maybe you will be able to explain -

what is the point in all that?

And what message anyone does not like? You are responding under a list of martyrs as presented by the authorities of the Orthodox Church _in Poland_. Wrongly depicted by Yura as if it was OC in Poland which "has announced that, after a thorough investigation of the circumstances of their tragic death at the hands of the blood-thirsty Polish 'heroes' ".

Indeed, it was not OC in Poland who said so, but Yura, and checking the very first name from the list demonstrated that monk Igancy from Jabłeczna Monastery was yet another priest/monk killed by Germans. Since you read Polish, you can check yourself in Wikipedia, besided the links provided by Zerwikaptur http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignacy_%28Bazyluk%29

"On May 13, 2006 Polish president Lech Kaczyński and Ukrainian president Viktor Yushchenko attended a ceremony at the site to pay tribute to the victims, and to encourage historical reconciliation between Poland and Ukraine."

So again - I am asking - what is the point?

I could also ask - where are the monuments in Ukraine in memory of 100 000 - 120 000 Polish civilians systematically murdered by UPA? I could ask where was your president a few days ago when Bronisław Komorowski was in Ukraine paying tribute to the victims of Volyn massacre. But all I am asking is

what is the point?

Please, Didomyk, Yura, and other bona fide commentators, for whom good relations between PL-UKR and respective nations are something worth promoting, do think for a short while - what is the point? What are you trying to achieve?

It's not an "unwarranted and primitive personal attack on His Beatitude Sawa", just a simple statement of fact disclosed by more than one historian and journalist, more than once in journals and the press, that he features in various communist police files as an informant, registered in 1966. If any of this was untrue, these historians and journalists would face legal proceedings. For your information his predecessor, Metropolitan Bazyli was also an informant. Hrycuniak was unaware of this fact and was therefore surprised the communist police weren't following up on his reports against the fellow bishop.

I'm not against the Orthodox Church, unlike you I welcomed last year's understanding reached with Polish Catholic Bishops, and treat the weaknesses of certain bishops and priests, we also have them in the Roman Catholic Church, as a separate issue. But a fact is a fact, just like the UPA acts of genocide. So don't come over all high and mighty in reference to me, I'm not the narrow-minded nationalist who treats information very selectively and stop frothing at the mouth.

Forlana: "Please, Didomyk, Yura, and other bona fide commentators, for whom good relations between PL-UKR and respective nations are something worth promoting, do think for a short while - what is the point?"

I understand your point even though it comes rather late in this debate.
Why didn't you pose that question to some of your Polish contributors like that 'Ultra'-nationalist from Gdansk', who has now resorted to smearing mud on the His Beatitude Sawa (Hrycuniak), Archbishop of Warsaw and Metropolitan of Poland, and the current head of the Autocephalous Church of Poland.

This is not just an extreme case of political ignorance but of irresponsible arrogance. Criticising some political leaders and condemning some historic offenses is one thing, but resorting to that kind of anonymous mud-slinging against the Head of the Orthodox Church is entirely different. All that, of course, while your 'heroic' self-proclaimed patriot enjoys anonymity and thus legal protection. Why doesn't that 'hero' from Gdansk show up in the Orthodox Cathedral in Warszawa any Sunday and repeat his accusations in person ?
Because he would not dare ! SHAME !

You inquire why I didn't ask 'what's the point' when it was pointed out that His Beatitude Sawa (Hrycuniak), let me cite, "chose to collaborate with the communists and effectively become an agent of Moscow" (if that is what you call smearing mud).

Here's my answer. Because I have checked the background of that statement and found that it is true. Sawa used to be a very active collaborator with the communist Security Service of the Ministry of Internal Affairs. That security Service in toto acted in the interests of Moscow. Not Kiev or Warsaw, but Moscow.
You may read about Sawa yourselfhttp://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sawa_%28Hrycuniak%29

Your indagnation cannot outweight the uncomfortable fact - that during real-communism in Poland some priests became agents of communist secret service - as the authorities painstakingly looked for collaborators in the ranks of RCC, their gravest enemy, but also in the ranks of Orthodox Church. Incidentally, in SU and earlier in Tsar Russia OC - as you must know - was in fact a tool of Russian imperialism.

Also today, distortions do not act for the benefit of Kiev, as they simply make the distance between the former and BRU longer. No matter if these distortions are outward, like i.e. commentator Yura's and Josh's, the latter - known specialist in entangled Polish-Ukrainian relations :-/ attempt to present e.g. Jakub Bazyluk aka Ignacy Jabłeczyński, monk-martyr from Jabłeczna Monastery - beaten to death by German soldiers - as a victim of blood-thirsty Poles, some more subtle, cannot change the "uncomfortable" fact as one commentator has said, that it was UPA which murdered 100 000 - 120 000 civilians in Volyn.

And that the victims of this massacre still aren't adequately honoured in Ukraine, neither in a symbolic way nor mentally. As documented by this sad discussion.

You are very patient Forlana. I lost my patience years ago, when one of the UPA defenders said on a different forum something like that about the victims of Volhynian genocide: "They deserved it". The people defending Ukrainian nationalists are simply unreformable.

Akcja Wisla was in response to the killings by UPA. It was directed by the Communist government in coordination with the Soviets, who were also going after the Polish non-Communist underground. It effectively stopped the killing emanating from the UPA.

"Each crime deserves to be remembered individually, regardless of who committed it."
Noble words, indeed. The pity is that your posts in the form of lies like the ones about "tens of thousand of Ukrainians perished in 1947" during "Akcja Wisła" or support of lies spread by Yura2009 have a completely opposite, base character.

The Polish people were the minority there - in Volyn lived 300 000 Poles and 1 500 000 Ukrainians.
In result of Ukrainian genocide - about 100 000- 150 000 Poles were killed in horrible way. The Ukrainians used 300 sorts of torture during Wolyn genocide.
OUN, UPA decided to fight against Polish state using terroristic attacks - just like Al Qaida did it against western countries (USA , Spain, UK) or IRA from Ulster against british state . Polish state did not tolerate such anti-Polish acitivity of OUN or UPA just like UK does not tolerate IRA or Al Qaida.
Now the Ukrainians try to justify horrible genocide in Volyn. It is terrible, because this genocide was the worst during WWII-the biggest was Jewish holocaust , but the worst was genocide made by the Ukrainians in Volyn.The Ukrainians used to burn alive the Poles, cut into pices,rape,crucify...

Let me follow on from my previous comment and do the following wrap-up note to this article and ongoing discussion:

(1) Due to the reasons outlined by OUN-UPA perpetrators, the way of preparation, utmost brutal conduct and the casualties' scale, the Massacres of Poles in Volyn & Eastern Galicia are deemed to be a genocide.

Regarding the number of casualties, there have been extensive studies and research done and the estimate of 100,000 murdered Poles (as stated in the article) is basically a moderate figure, supported by the Polish IPN (Institute of National Rememberance).

(2) Question: are those Ukrainians, who are outraged about "ruthless" Operation Vistula in Apr-July 1947, equally outraged about the Operation West ("Akcja Zachód"), which was similar operation to Vistula carried out by Ukrainian communists in the Ukrainian SSR in Oct 1947?

(3) I think a lot of "bad blood" between Poles & (West) Ukrainians has been and still is caused by the views of Ukrainian nationalists about the so-called "ethnic Ukrainian territories", which include - in their opinion - also some areas in present-day South-Eastern Poland.

I think I know where those nationalistic views may originate from, which I suspect would be the period of AD 981-1340 when the area of Cherven Towns ("Grody Czerwienskie") and Lviv/Lwow Region were under the rule of Kievan Rus...

Let me now tell you that those areas cannot be considered "ethnic Ukrainian territories", because:

(a) Cherven Towns (Red Ruthenia) were captured by Kievan Rus only in AD 981 and held until 1340 (with the exception of AD 1018-1031, when they were retaken by Poland).

As Nestor the Chronicler reported: "Vladimir marched upon the Lyakhs (k Lyakbotri) and took their cities: Peremyshl (modern Przemyśl), Cherven (modern Czermno), and other towns, which are under Rus until this day."

But if we want to look at indigenous ethnicity, the area of Cherven Towns would've been inhabited by the Lechitic/Polish tribe of Lendians ("Lachy"), whose archeological traces were found i.a. in Lviv/Lwow area.

(b) Until 19th century there had been no Ukrainian nation. In Middle Ages by the term "Ukraine" was meant the area located on the east bank of Dnieper river. Until mid 19th cent. (and sometimes even longer) the "Ukrainian" inhabitants of Western Galicia had referred to themselves as Ruthenians and/or Rusyns.

Besides, with such anachronic and narrow-minded approach to "indigenous ethnic territories", the descendants of European settlers in New World (USA, Canada, Australia, Brasil, etc.) should be expelled back to Europe. ;-)

What is the source for these grandiose tallies? Actual academic research (as opposed to wild guestimates) has shown that the figures usually given for Polish victims is over-inflated threefold, whilst the number of Ukrainian victims is downplayed to 1/17th of its actual size. In addition, it would be wise to keep in mind that the Ukrainians were never occupiers or aggressors, as they were simply defending their rights on their own ancestral lands - given these facts, who is really the victim in this case?

Concerning the figures murdered by gneocidal thugs from UPA check the Siemaszkos work. Available on the internet. Google is your friend.

"In addition, it would be wise to keep in mind that the Ukrainians were never occupiers or aggressors, as they were simply defending their rights on their own ancestral lands - given these facts, who is really the victim in this case?"
These are not facts, just chauvinist propaganda.

One of the things that I find troubling about the Polish view of the Volyn tragedy is that it does not accept any blame for the causes leading to the massacre, nor does it acknowledge what Polish forces did to innocent Ukrainians in retribution.

I shall start by saying that very few Ukrainians actually support the UPA or OUN, other than certain extremists, of whom there are VERY few in Ukraine. This is as true today as it was during the existence of these organizations more than half a century ago. Yes, the Svoboda party supports OUN and UPA but this does not mean that the people who voted for them actually do. Furthermore, Svoboda supports the elements of the UPA who fought for Ukraine's independence against those who occupied Ukraine, not those who committed atrocities.

The OUN and UPA are not officially recognized by the Ukrainian state. And their veterans are not officially recognized by the Ukrainian state and therefore do not receive veterans benefits. In fact, most Ukrainians (many millions) fought within the ranks of the Soviet army during WWII and proudly support that armed force and its veterans.

However, Poles and Poland, proudly support the Armia Krajowa (AK). The problem here is that the AK is guilty of the exact same crimes as those committed by the UPA against the Poles in Volyn. Yes, the AK was murdering Ukrainians in Volyn and Galicia up until at least 1947 if not later. They also murdered innocent women and children as well as the elderly in the most despicable ways possible. Most Ukrainians condemn the UPA's massacring the Poles in Volyn but I have yet to see any Poles condemning what the AK did to innocent Ukrainians not only in Volyn but also in Galicia!

I know all of this not only from official history but also from the fact that my father's family was murdered by members of the AK who came to his village in Galicia (village of Dobra just east of Sieniawa which is just north of Jaroslaw) and murdered dozens of villagers including my grandmother, grandfather and great-grandmother, who was burned alive in her house. This was June 1945. My father was 11 years old and fled to the forest although the AK was also shooting at him as he fled. He hid in the forest for a couple of days until the AK left and then his uncle and aunt came and brought him to their village which was close by. My father lived with his uncle and aunt for a year but then the AK came (now 1946) and starting massacring people in that village too. Again, my father escaped by sheer luck.

My father's aunt, who returned to her village from forced labour in Nazi Germany after the war, had to quickly throw away all her documents since the Poles lined up the villagers and murdered anyone who was Ukrainian. She managed to convince her would be AK murderers that she was Polish and thus escaped death. However, since she got rid of her documents she has not been able to prove to anyone that she was working in a Nazi forced labour camp and has therefore never received any compensation from the German government. She is very old and very poor.

My family did not support the OUN or UPA and had nothing to do with them. To this day, my father is deeply scarred by this experience. He never talks about it unless I start asking but what he has to say about what he witnessed is extremely gruesome and gory. I'll spare you the details.

I have been to my father's village many times (there are no Ukrainians there anymore) to visit the cemetery and the grave of my grandparents. If you look at the gravestones you can see that there are a number of mass graves. Each of them tells the story of how the AK murdered Ukrainians at different times between 1944 and 1946. There are a few graves that contain up to 30 people and few that have about 20. Of course there are also many single and double person graves like the one in which my grandparents are buried; all victims of the AK.

Dobra is a very small village yet there are over 100 victims of the Polish AK's massacres. But there are hundreds of other Ukrainian villages that endured the same kind of treatment.

I realize that the UPA started the massacres, and like I said, I don't know any Ukrainians who support these crimes. But the silence of Poles with regards to their own crimes are very troubling.
I can also add that my mother's family - Lemkos - who had absolutely nothing to do with the OUN or UPA and who lived in an area where there was no OUN or UPA presence, were deported to western Poland during Akcja Wisla in 1947. This is also a crime which Poland hardly condemns and for which it has yet to officially apologize.

So, my suggestion to Poles is to look at your own crimes and confess to them instead of denying them and pointing your fingers at others. And stop supporting the AK which itself is responsible for serious war crimes.

“One of the things that I find troubling about the Polish view of the Volyn tragedy is that it does not accept any blame for the causes leading to the massacre, nor does it acknowledge what Polish forces did to innocent Ukrainians in retribution.”
The cause of the massacres was a decision taken by UPA, a decision stemming from ideologically driven desire to create Ukraine free of non-Ukrainians. Not only Poles were targeted in the genocidal zeal. The same applied to Armenians and Czechs. Please explain what was their fault.
“ Yes, the Svoboda party supports OUN and UPA but this does not mean that the people who voted for them actually do. Furthermore, Svoboda supports the elements of the UPA who fought for Ukraine's independence against those who occupied Ukraine, not those who committed atrocities.”
It is a kind of twisted logic on your side, if you vote for a certain party then you support the program and/or actions of that party. Svoboda has its roots in the fascist ideology and still maintains links to some organizations that are openly fascist. Svoboda supports commemorating OUN/UPA leaders responsible for Volhynian genocide.
So your statement “Furthermore, Svoboda supports the elements of the UPA who fought for Ukraine's independence against those who occupied Ukraine, not those who committed atrocities.” is simply false.

“T In fact, most Ukrainians (many millions) fought within the ranks of the Soviet army during WWII and proudly support that armed force and its veterans.”
So, who was right, UPA “fighting for Ukraine's independence against those who occupied Ukraine” (i.e. for Ukrainians only) or the Ukrainians fighting in Red Army or NKVD units against UPA?
“The OUN and UPA are not officially recognized by the Ukrainian state. And their veterans are not officially recognized by the Ukrainian state and therefore do not receive veterans benefits.”
That is true, however in the western part of the Ukrainian state those veterans were given privileges. The same western part that is littered with monuments to Roman Shukhevych, responsible for atrocities committed against Poles and other nationalities.
A plaque in his memory was put on a building of the Polish school in Lwów as an act of obvious provocation. It is the same as if somebody put a plaque commemorating Himmler on a Jewish school building.

Concerning Lemkos, it is a fact that they were not involved in OUN/UPA (or very marginally, there is still some discussion going on about it). They were lumped together with Ukrainians, despite the fact that majority of them did not consider themselves Ukrainians till the time of resettlement to Ukraine and to other parts of Poland.

“I can also add that my mother's family - Lemkos - who had absolutely nothing to do with the OUN or UPA and who lived in an area where there was no OUN or UPA presence, were deported to western Poland during Akcja Wisla in 1947. This is also a crime which Poland hardly condemns and for which it has yet to officially apologize.”
Senat of Poland condemned Operation Vistula already in 1990. I am sorry to hear that the news have not reached you yet.
Are Lemkos demanding apologies from Ukraine for settling majority of them in Ukrainian SSR? Just a question.

“Yes, the AK was murdering Ukrainians in Volyn and Galicia up until at least 1947 if not later.”
AK was dissolved in the beginning of 1945 while Poles living the Polish territories given to Soviet Union (Volhynia for example) were transferred to Poland in the new borders between 1944 and 1946.

AK actions in Volhynia started as retaliation as Ukrainians supported OUN/UPA (those Ukrainians who were against further anti-Polish actions or helped their Polish neighbors were murdered by Banderites). AK did not have the underlying ideology of integral nationalism that caused the UPA genocidal mayhem.

“My family did not support the OUN or UPA and had nothing to do with them. “
Even if true, if UPA requested your family members to join them, what would they have done?

“I realize that the UPA started the massacres, and like I said, I don't know any Ukrainians who support these crimes. “

Anyone putting up the monuments in memory to Shukhevych or Klyachkivsky or the ideologists like Lenkavskij supports those crimes.

“But the silence of Poles with regards to their own crimes are very troubling.” Again lack of reading the news on your side.

You do not seem to grasp one thing. A burnt village, however brutal it might sound, is not a genocide. What is also required is the intent:

Acts of mayhem committed by OUN/UPA satisfy the requirements of the definition of genocide, as they wanted to clear the “Ukrainian lands” of any non-Ukrainians. They did that because of the fascists ideology, exactly like Ustasha were clearing “Croatian lands”.

Thank you for your response. You have proven my point. You have completely ignored the crimes committed by Polish forces; military groups which are officially recognized by the Polish state. And because these forces are officially recognized by the Polish state, it means that the crimes that they committed are also approved by the Polish state, and obviously by you. In a nutshell, you have said that the murdering of innocent Ukrainians was justified even if they had nothing to do with the OUN or UPA and were against them, as was my family. Like I said, Poles should look at themselves and their own crimes. I condemn the murdering of innocent Poles in Volyn or anywhere else. I have no problem calling this a genocide. But what the Poles and their glorious AK did to Ukrainians is exactly the same, regardless of what ideology they preached. Or do you think that if a democrat (not that the AK were democrats, they were nationalists) murders someone, it is more justified than if a fascist does it? What you have said makes it clear that the real fascist and extremist here is YOU. And from what I can see, Poles are the real integral nationalists and fascists, as they refuse to condemn their own atrocities and actually glorify those groups like the AK who committed war crimes. You have made it clear that you approve of the murder of Ukrainians and that you approve of the deportation of Lemkos. Shame on you!! And as for whether my family members would have joined the UPA if requested, let me tell you this. Both my father's older brothers were sent to Nazi concentration camps. My one uncle, who was 19 years old, lasted one month in Auschwitz before he perished whereas my other uncle, who was 21, was sent to Bergen-Belsen. He survived the war. They refused to join any Nazis or Polish or Ukrainian fascists and they paid for this decision.

Agafia -
When answering your post I responded by debunking of most of your statements, agreeining with some of them and clarifying to you certain definitions you do not understand.
When you responded (not answered, just to be clear) to my post, you wrote some general hysterical statements with no basis in my previous post.
Example what you said:
"You have made it clear that you approve of the murder of Ukrainians and that you approve of the deportation of Lemkos."
Let's analyse your statement about my alleged approval of Lemkos deportation by going back to my previous post for a while:
QUOTE
Concerning Lemkos, it is a fact that they were not involved in OUN/UPA (or very marginally, there is still some discussion going on about it). They were lumped together with Ukrainians, despite the fact that majority of them did not consider themselves Ukrainians till the time of resettlement to Ukraine and to other parts of Poland.
“I can also add that my mother's family - Lemkos - who had absolutely nothing to do with the OUN or UPA and who lived in an area where there was no OUN or UPA presence, were deported to western Poland during Akcja Wisla in 1947. This is also a crime which Poland hardly condemns and for which it has yet to officially apologize.”
Senat of Poland condemned Operation Vistula already in 1990. I am sorry to hear that the news have not reached you yet.
Are Lemkos demanding apologies from Ukraine for settling majority of them in Ukrainian SSR? Just a question.
UNQUOTE
I proved that your accusation of Poland has not condemned Operation Vistula is false.
I agreed that Lemkos (at least in their majority) were not involved in OUN/UPA activities.
I simply asked a fair question if Lemkos also demand condemnation from Ukraine of the resettlement of the majority of their population to Ukrainian SSR.
Where do you see that I "approve of the deportation of Lemkos?" It is only a single example of your inability to conduct a reasonable discussion.
Calling me fascist is just a proof that apart from name calling you have no arguments. I reserve that word only for certain groups of people who have a certain ideology. What you do in line with the leftist tradition is to put that name on anyone in discussion with whom you depleted your non-emotional arguments. In other words in a discussion where you see you have lost.
I am waiting for your non-emotional answer to points raised in my previous post. Are you capable of delivering it or you will continue with your anti-Polish venom?

"AK was dissolved in the beginning of 1945 while Poles living the Polish territories given to Soviet Union (Volhynia for example) were transferred to Poland in the new borders between 1944 and 1946. "

First, in terms of violence incl. murdering of Ukrainians either in Volynia or in the Chelm region, in the Lemko region or anywhere it made no difference if the perpetrators claimed to belong to Ar. Krajowa or Ar.Ludowa or just 'Selfdefense'. Murders were murders and there were plenty of both individual and mass murders well beyond the the Volyn region. The Chelm region just west of the Bug river suffered most.

Second, you may not be aware of facts but it was on April 23, 1947, that by a decree of the Central Committee of the Polish Workers' Party, the German-built Jaworzno camp was selected as the detention camp for civilians during the Operation Vistula mass deportation campaign. History records show that the first prisoners from Sanok arrived in the special Jaworzno subcamp on May 5, 1947. The number of civilian prisoners eventually totalled over 4,000, including some 1,000 women and children. These kids must have been the most dangerous threat to the security of your Peoples Poland (Polska Ludowa). The prisoners included well over 100 Lemko intelligentsia and 25 Ukrainian Greek Catholic priests. Some Lemko Ukrainian prisoners were gradually released by the spring of 1949 having accepted to be resettled to far away lands to be known as 'recovered territories'. Several hundred were sent to military prisons and over 160 died in the detention camp.

and exploring copies of original photos and reading several testimonies of professional Polish historians. All this will teach you about historical facts of barbaric vandalism against Christian Orthodox churches that was carefully planned and staged in May to July, 1938 by the Polish government under Rydz Smigly.

The destruction was planned and executed by a Polish general commanding Polish army units, by Polish police, by prison inmates supplied by the state. All went according to the state-approved plan, 127 Christian churches, some several centuries old, had simply vanished forever.

Even Stalin's Kremlin planners, who in the 1930s were busy implementing their own atheistic anti-church activities in the USSR, could not beat that record. They converted churches into warehouses or clubs. That was not good enough for the Rydz Smigly's brand of Polish nationalists. All 127 churches had to be destroyed despite criticism in the Polish Seim and in the foreign media.

"[..]Svoboda supports the elements of the UPA who fought for Ukraine's independence against those who occupied Ukraine, not those who committed atrocities."

This would be the crucial objective for a constructive dialog. With this statement it is easier to understand the comparison to Armia Krajowa as a home army. (Even now we have in Poland some more eager activists calling for violence. Maybe they learned it from OUN-UPA?)

NO, nothing justifies destroying 127 Orthodox churches in just two months of deliberately organised government action ! I will spell it out for you (as you have some problems with numbers): ONE HUNDRED TWENTY SEVEN CHURCHES destroyed not by some thugs or bands, but by Polish government-directed and police-executed action.

Just as nothing justifies brutal murdering of the civilian Polish population or equally brutal murdering of civilians Ukrainians. Both actions were wrong and BOTH guilty parties should be held equally accountable.

Just as nothing justifies setting up and operating Polish penal concentration camps like the infamous pre-war Bereza Kartuska or the post-war Jawozno. Commanders and their staff of both concentration camps should have been subject to the same concept of justice as commanders and guards of any war-time Nazi-run concentration camps.

NO, let's be clear: nothing justifies national or political discrimination in the application of justice. That principle must be carefully preserved and it should not have become victim of political expediency in Poland or in Ukraine.

“Repeating the same silly juvenile comment twice only confirms that you have been blinded by your narrow nationalism.”

Judging nationalism by the number of repeated content brings you to the extreme nationalist league, a truly Banderite achievement.

“Again I strongly advise you to spend time examining the bilingual (Polish-Ukrainian website
http://www.cerkiew1938.pl/index.html”

Again off-topic from you.

You try to connect the stupid (I said that at least two times in my previous posts) action of destruction of Orthodox Churches in 1937 with the Volhynian genocide conducted by fascists from OUN/UPA.
So from your point of view the latter is justified by the former. Hence the conclusion is that that despite nominally professing Orthodox Christianity the local Ukrainian population has beliefs demanding human sacrifices for every Orthodox church destroyed. You seem to share that set of beliefs, hence my advice to you:

Apparently your prayers to Moloch and his two sidekicks (Bandera and Shukhevych) have not been answered.
Maybe you need some visual help like this one:http://barrakuda63.livejournal.com/754845.html (has your church already commissioned more of such imagery?)
and some songs like the one you certainly know but maybe have not used recently:
“Bude lacka krow po kolina - bude wilna Ukrajina” (There will be Polish blood till knees – there will be free Ukraine)

I like how you cherry pick your outrage. Destroying Ukrainian churches: bad. Killing Ukrainians: bad. Killing Poles: well ... they asked for it, it was their own damn fault.

It would be cute if it was not so tragic. I see from this discussion that Ukraine has a lot of growing up to do.Owing your past atrocities would be a good place to start. But I really don't care about Ukraine all that much; you were always a mess and you still are, even with your independence. I don't see Ukraine in the family of civilized nations any time soon; you were always a nation of barbaric peasants. So keep your silly posturing and attempts of deflecting the guilt.

"Just as nothing justifies brutal murdering of the civilian Polish population or equally brutal murdering of civilians Ukrainians. Both actions were wrong and BOTH guilty parties should be held equally accountable."

Equally? Really? Keep denying if it makes you feel better. I can't help you see if you don't want to see.

"Just as nothing justifies setting up and operating Polish penal concentration camps like the infamous pre-war Bereza Kartuska or the post-war Jawozno."

Bereza was a political prison and was opened for a valid reason (even if from today's politically correct perspective it doesn't seems right). Jaworzno was run by Soviets and had noting to do with Poland or Polish government. You are obviously desperate for ANY excuse to justify Volhynia massacre; well, there isn't. Deal with it.

What a narrow minded nationalistic excuse. Nazi conc. camps like Dachau and others were also set up as political prisons. It is well known that Poland's Prime Minister of the day was a Nazi sympathiser. Your comment smells very much as a futile justification of Nazi and Stalin's conc. camp practices. Vorkuta, Kolyma and a dozen others Soviet Gulags, - in the minds of Yezhov, Yagoda, Beria and others, - were "opened for a valid reason"

" Jaworzno was run by Soviets and had noting to do with Poland or Polish government. "

Plain Bullcake ! Jaworzno and numerous other POLISH post-WWII penal camps were run by the Polish UB under supervision of the Polish government of the day. You need to come clean what the Polish politicians have done both to the minorities and to 'politically unreliable' Poles.
To clear up Poland's name, Polish authorities should have, over the past twenty-odd years, released the names of and administered justice to all Polish commanders and camp guards guilty of administering perverted "justice" modelled after penal camps run by the Gestapo and the Soviet NKVD.

Both the Volyn massacres of 1943/44 of Ukrainians against Poles and the Operation Vistula ("Akcja Wisła") of Poles against Ukrainians (1947) had a genocidal character.

The explosion of hartred manifested in these actions cannot be understood without the failed minority policies of interwar Poland, which had set out to forcefully assimilate its national minorities (Ukrainians, Belorussians, Lithuanians, Germans), which constituted as much as 1/3 of the entire population – and a 2/3 majority of the eastern third of the country (the so-called "kresy", borderland), including the areas in question, eastern Galicia and Volyn.

The methods with which the cultural assimilation of the non-Polish population of these areas were carried out were similar in nature to those to which the Poles had been subjected themselves at the hands of the Russians and Germans before WWI, and as in those cases, they bred hartred.

“Both the Volyn massacres of 1943/44 of Ukrainians against Poles and the Operation Vistula ("Akcja Wisła") of Poles against Ukrainians (1947) had a genocidal character.”

Operation Vistula was a forced deportation, one of many around that time in Europe. Calling it a genocide is just a proof of ignorance or bad will.
Victims of a true genocide, the one conducted by butchers from OUN/UPA would have been grateful to be deported instead of being slaughtered.

“The methods with which the cultural assimilation of the non-Polish population of these areas were carried out were similar in nature to those to which the Poles had been subjected themselves at the hands of the Russians and Germans before WWI, and as in those cases, they bred hartred.”
There is no automatic translation of hatred into genocide.
Somehow Poles after WWI did not decide to wipe out the whole population of Germans living in the independent Poland. Some White Russians settled in Poland after the Bolshevik coup d etat.
You are trying to whitewash fascists from OUN/UPA.

The Massacres of Poles in Volyn & Eastern Galicia were a genocide (any similarities to the massacres committed by Cossacks/Ukrainians during the Khmelnytsky Uprising and Koliyvshchina?), the forced expulsion of Rusyns/Ukrainians during Operation Vistula certainly wasn't. Unless you want to call the Operation West ("Akcja Zachód"), which was similar operation to Vistula carried out by Ukrainian communists in the Ukrainian SSR in Oct 1947, a genocide too?

Anyway, the butchers from UPA were pillaging Polish villages and murdering Poles in South-Eastern Poland until 1947. Whether you like it or not, had it not been for Operation Vistula, we wouldn't have had so long peaceful period after WW2...

BTW, I like Ukraine & Ukrainians, but I hate narrow-minded OUN-UPA supporters.

" had it not been for Operation Vistula, we wouldn't have had so long peaceful period after WW2"

Stalin and his henchmen like Beria were far ahead of you by forcibly removing ALL civilian Tatars from the Crimea, ALL Chechens from the Caucasus, and sending them and other minorities to the cold steppes of Central Asia.
Since Putin continues to have serious problems with the Chechens and the Dagestanis, you should volunteer your services to him to show him that you know better how it's done.