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so you want an ak-47: unfs gun control or lack thereof party thread

so right, obvs america has an obsession (and a problem) with guns. clearly they are easy to access in the US. Most developed countries have somewhat stricter laws, but it's not massive red tape to access guns in Canada or the N. Ireland for instance, but the US seems to be a special kind of crazy, especially since they're hardly united states.

So this thread was inspired by the Trayvon Martin/stand your ground dramaz.

I have evolving thoughts on gun control. I think they're insane and best left out of the general public's hands, however living in a country with easy gun access coupled with prolific crazy, I can understand the desire of non-law enforcement persons to own gun(s). It seems to be the reality of the situation as, at least where I live, effective gun control isn't happening any time soon. That said, I'd prefer regulated access. In my dreamworld.

I'm usually way to the left on most things, but on guns, generally I'm center and I might even be right, except that the right has been hijacked by fucking crazies on this (and most other) issues. I guess I'm left on guns now because of the hard right turn the right has taken. While I don't believe in total, unrestricted access to all guns by every person, I generally believe non-criminals and the mentally stable should be able to have guns. Things like hollow-point bullets? No. Laying around a house with kids, loaded? No. Waiting period for a background check? Sure. But somehow, that became not enough for the NRA. Somehow it's not enough to not have a problem with gun ownership, but you have to be behind crazy-ass things like the Stand Your Ground movement. I don't get that at all. Stockpiling is creepy, regardless of whether or not it should be legal. Concealment laws aren't really ok with me either. It seems the extremists want to have everyone armed at all times and I don't want to live like that.

Well I'm not Frangi!, but in my view, semi-automatic weapons sold to the general public too often result in some crazy person shooting up a mall, a school, their place of employment, etc.

Suffice it to say that I'm not a huge fan of citizens owning guns because too often when they're in the hands of people who've been abusing substances (drugs/alcohol) or are mentally ill or just downright violent, people die or are permanently maimed. That said, there's the 2nd amendment, so as long as it exists, guns will be widely available for purchase. Gun control? Hah! Look at how many situations there are where people are pulled over for DUI or driving on a suspended license and the cops end up finding an illegally owned firearm in the car.

HOWEVER. If some nutcase was threatening my life, I cannot say with absolute certainty that I wouldn't buy a gun. What I can say is that I'm sure that if I did, I'd learn to fire it properly so I wouldn't end up shooting myself or some other innocent party should someone try to kill me. And the thing would be loaded at all times, or I don't see the point in having it - I never have children in my home, so that isn't an issue.

I'm completely against a blanket right to gun ownership and think it's an insane thing to have written into a constitution. Utterly insane. It is not the 1700's. It is not the "wild west". There are many other, better, ways to ensure your home and family are protected. People owning guns results in people using guns.

Then again, I live in a country where most of the police don't even have guns, nor do they need them because it's pretty damn hard to get a gun licence here - you apply to the Garda Superintendent of your District to get one, and it only is valid for three years at a time, and you have to show you have a need/specific purpose for it e.g. for hunting during the season.

You may discharge your firearm for the purposes for which it was acquired e.g. game hunting, pest control, clay pigeon shooting, target shooting etc.

its the legislation re: guns that infuriates me. "stand your ground" for instance is fucking ridiculous. what business does someone have leaving their house like a vigilante looking for trouble? (see trayvon martin). really none, and that its even a possible defense is shit. if you're not up to anything shady, i would think you could give a shit about waiting periods, background checks, limited variety (not having access to fully automatic weapons for instance). i think the severity of the right polarizes even those in the center.

i agree with you kala. despite many other countries having liberal gun laws, it's semi-automatic handguns that have been used in the majority of suicides and violent crimes. it's a problem. so is having a gun and not knowing how to use it, or not being INSANELY safe about their use. because, you know, a lot of people are fucking stupid.

ebs: i ultimately agree with you as well. imo, it would be much nicer to live in a society where guns were not so accessible and prolific where law enforcement didn't even carry them routinely. SO much nicer.

I kind of feel like gun ownership is a necessary evil, as long as we have it in the 2nd amendment that it is our right to keep and bear arms. Meaning that if the 'crazies' have guns, then there is a need for people to have guns to keep those crazies at bay. Personally, I do not own or carry a gun, but if I felt the need to defend myself for any reason I'd like to have the option at least to purchase a gun.

Whenever I visit NYC (which I love to do!) the machine-gun-toting police/guards/marines/whatever milling about places like Penn Station make me extremely uneasy. Yes yes, I know, maybe they are necessary, terrors and whatnot. It isn't necessarily an intellectual objection I have. It's just a big ol' heap of "you are in a very different country right now" served in a sudden and unmissable way. I find it terribly off-putting. It's actually quite a frightening moment. Maybe other members of the public take comfort in such heavily armed authority figures on display. I don't know. I would imagine if they opened fire with those things in such close, crowded quarters, there would be a spectacular amount of 'collateral damage.'

I think guns are good for hunting, and I tend to be pro-for-food-hunting (not trophy hunting!), so I suppose I am by extension pro-gun in that sense. Pro-hunting-rifle.

I have a bit of a concern with the "guns are OK for stable, sane people" argument because crazy isn't a forever thing. Sane, stable people can and do go crazy, for any number of reasons. What to do with that, I don't know.

I'm usually way to the left on most things, but on guns, generally I'm center and I might even be right, except that the right has been hijacked by fucking crazies on this (and most other) issues. I guess I'm left on guns now because of the hard right turn the right has taken. While I don't believe in total, unrestricted access to all guns by every person, I generally believe non-criminals and the mentally stable should be able to have guns. Things like hollow-point bullets? No. Laying around a house with kids, loaded? No. Waiting period for a background check? Sure. But somehow, that became not enough for the NRA. Somehow it's not enough to not have a problem with gun ownership, but you have to be behind crazy-ass things like the Stand Your Ground movement. I don't get that at all. Stockpiling is creepy, regardless of whether or not it should be legal. Concealment laws aren't really ok with me either. It seems the extremists want to have everyone armed at all times and I don't want to live like that.

This is pretty much exactly where I am.

I actually considered buying a pistol once, in case of society just fucking falling apart. But I didn't, and now my attitude is that I really don't care to survive an apocalypse. I'm not the zombie hunter type.

I'm completely against a blanket right to gun ownership and think it's an insane thing to have written into a constitution. Utterly insane. It is not the 1700's. It is not the "wild west". There are many other, better, ways to ensure your home and family are protected. People owning guns results in people using guns.

Then again, I live in a country where most of the police don't even have guns, nor do they need them because it's pretty damn hard to get a gun licence here - you apply to the Garda Superintendent of your District to get one, and it only is valid for three years at a time, and you have to show you have a need/specific purpose for it e.g. for hunting during the season.

Whenever I visit NYC (which I love to do!) the machine-gun-toting police/guards/marines/whatever milling about places like Penn Station make me extremely uneasy. Yes yes, I know, maybe they are necessary, terrors and whatnot. It isn't necessarily an intellectual objection I have. It's just a big ol' heap of "you are in a very different country right now" served in a sudden and unmissable way. I find it terribly off-putting. It's actually quite a frightening moment. Maybe other members of the public take comfort in such heavily armed authority figures on display. I don't know. I would imagine if they opened fire with those things in such close, crowded quarters, there would be a spectacular amount of 'collateral damage.'

I think guns are good for hunting, and I tend to be pro-for-food-hunting (not trophy hunting!), so I suppose I am by extension pro-gun in that sense. Pro-hunting-rifle.

I have a bit of a concern with the "guns are OK for stable, sane people" argument because crazy isn't a forever thing. Sane, stable people can and do go crazy, for any number of reasons. What to do with that, I don't know.

The funny thing is, that is exactly how I felt when I first traveled to Europe (Charles de Gaulle airport, with the machine gun-armed guards; who always patrolled in a pack of three for some reason). We did not have that in the US when I was little. That's pure post-9/11 hysteria.

About American gun culture: I think it's a function of racism, inequality and just in general a broken, atomized society. You don't see people clinging to guns in the same way in Canada or FInland, despite the fact that they have a lot of guns, because they are mostly egalitarian societies and people don't live in fear of their neighbors or the ev0l national government (who do crazy things like ensure that black people are able to vote).

I hate guns and it's utterly fucking ridiculous that people are allowed to have them.

It's completely bizarre that the USA spends billions slaughtering people in foreign countries who belong to an organisation which is responsible for such a tiny, tiny proportion of the murders of Americans, while the carnage continues back home and people say "yeah but the constitution, so".

If gun ownership wasn't in the constitution (and even that's arguable - it was states' right to their own militias that was supposed to be being protected, not individuals', wasn't it?) but was only regulated by law, would things still stay the way they are now? Would 'guns=freedom' proponents still be so uniquely powerful?

Is constitutional literalism even more harmful than biblical literalism?