[2] "As far as the sun & moon revolve, illumining the directions with their light, there extends the thousand-fold cosmos. In that thousand-fold cosmos there are a thousand moons, a thousand suns, a thousand Sunerus — kings of mountains; a thousand Rose-apple continents, [1] a thousand Deathless Ox-cart [continents], a thousand northern Kuru [continents], a thousand eastern Videha [continents]; four thousand great oceans, four thousand Great Kings, a thousand [heavens of the] Four Great Kings, a thousand [heavens of the] Thirty-three, a thousand [heavens of the] Yamas, a thousand [heavens of the] Tusitas, a thousand heavens of the Nimmanaratis, a thousand heavens of the Paranimmitavasavattis, [2] and a thousand Brahma worlds. And in that thousand-fold cosmos, the Great Brahma is reckoned supreme. Yet even in the Great Brahma there is still aberration, there is change. Seeing this, the instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with that. Being disenchanted with that, he becomes dispassionate toward what is supreme, and even more so toward what is inferior.

[3] "There comes a time when this cosmos devolves. When the cosmos is devolving, most beings head to the [heaven of] the Radiant. There they remain for a long, long time — mind-made, feeding on rapture, self-radiant, faring through the sky, abiding in splendor. When the cosmos is devolving, the Radiant Devas are reckoned supreme. Yet even in the Radiant Devas, there is still aberration, there is change. Seeing this, the instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with that. Being disenchanted with that, he becomes dispassionate toward what is supreme, and even more so toward what is inferior.

[4] "There are these ten totality-dimensions. Which ten? One perceives the earth-totality above, below, all-around: non-dual, [3] unlimited. One perceives the water-totality... the fire-totality... the wind-totality... the blue-totality... the yellow-totality... the red-totality... the white-totality... the space-totality... the consciousness-totality above, below, all-around: non-dual, unlimited. These are the ten totalities. Now, of these ten totalities, this is supreme: when one perceives the consciousness-totality above, below, all-around: non-dual, unlimited. And there are beings who are percipient in this way. Yet even in the beings who are percipient in this way there is still aberration, there is change. Seeing this, the instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with that. Being disenchanted with that, he becomes dispassionate toward what is supreme, and even more so toward what is inferior.

[5] "There are these eight dimensions of [mental] mastery. Which eight?

(i) "One percipient of form internally sees forms externally as limited, beautiful & ugly. Mastering them, he is percipient of 'I know; I see.' This is the first dimension of [mental] mastery.

(ii) "One percipient of form internally sees forms externally as immeasurable, beautiful & ugly. Mastering them, he is percipient of 'I know; I see.' This is the second dimension of [mental] mastery.

(iii) "One percipient of the formless internally sees forms externally as limited, beautiful & ugly. Mastering them, he is percipient of 'I know; I see.' This is the third dimension of [mental] mastery.

(iv) "One percipient of the formless internally sees forms externally as immeasurable, beautiful & ugly. Mastering them, he is percipient of 'I know; I see.' This is the fourth dimension of [mental] mastery.

(v) "One percipient of the formless internally sees forms externally as blue, blue in their color, blue in their features, blue in their glow. Just as a flax-flower is blue, blue in its color, blue in its features, blue in its glow, or just as Benares muslin, smooth on both sides, is blue, blue in its color, blue in its features, blue in its glow, in the same way one percipient of the formless internally sees forms externally as blue, blue in their color, blue in their features, blue in their glow. Mastering them, he is percipient of 'I know; I see.' This is the fifth dimension of [mental] mastery.

(vi) "One percipient of the formless internally sees forms externally as yellow, yellow in their color, yellow in their features, yellow in their glow. Just as a kannikara-flower is yellow, yellow in its color, yellow in its features, yellow in its glow, or just as Benares muslin, smooth on both sides, is yellow, yellow in its color, yellow in its features, yellow in its glow, in the same way one percipient of the formless internally sees forms externally as yellow, yellow in their color, yellow in their features, yellow in their glow. Mastering them, he is percipient of 'I know; I see.' This is the sixth dimension of [mental] mastery.

(vii) "One percipient of the formless internally sees forms externally as red, red in their color, red in their features, red in their glow. Just as a bandha-jivaka-flower is red, red in its color, red in its features, red in its glow, or just as Benares muslin, smooth on both sides, is red, red in its color, red in its features, red in its glow, in the same way one percipient of the formless internally sees forms externally as red, red in their color, red in their features, red in their glow. Mastering them, he is percipient of 'I know; I see.' This is the seventh dimension of [mental] mastery.

(viii) "One percipient of the formless internally sees forms externally as white, white in their color, white in their features, white in their glow. Just as the morning star is white, white in its color, white in its features, white in its glow, or just as Benares muslin, smooth on both sides, is white, white in its color, white in its features, white in its glow, in the same way one percipient of the formless internally sees forms externally as white, white in their color, white in their features, white in their glow. Mastering them, he is percipient of 'I know; I see.' This is the eighth dimension of [mental] mastery.

"These are the eight dimensions of mental mastery. Now, of these eight dimensions of mastery, this is supreme: when one percipient of the formless internally sees forms externally as white, white in their color, white in their features, white in their glow. And there are beings who are percipient in this way. Yet even in the beings who are percipient in this way there is still aberration, there is change. Seeing this, the instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with that. Being disenchanted with that, he becomes dispassionate toward what is supreme, and even more so toward what is inferior.

[6] "There are these four modes of practice. Which four? Painful practice with slow intuition, painful practice with quick intuition, pleasant practice with slow intuition, and pleasant practice with quick intuition. These are the four modes of practice. Now, of these four modes of practice, this is supreme: pleasant practice with quick intuition. And there are beings whose practice is like this. Yet even in the beings whose practice is like this there is still aberration, there is change. Seeing this, the instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with that. Being disenchanted with that, he becomes dispassionate toward what is supreme, and even more so toward what is inferior.

[7] "There are these four perceptions. Which four? One perceives the limited [ordinary perceptions]. One perceives the enlarged [the mind in jhana]. One perceives the immeasurable [the mind in the Brahma attitudes]. One perceives the dimension of nothingness: 'There is nothing.' These are the four perceptions. Now, of these four perceptions, this is supreme: when one perceives the dimension of nothingness: 'There is nothing.' And there are beings who are percipient in this way. Yet even in the beings who are percipient in this way there is still aberration, there is change. Seeing this, the instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with that. Being disenchanted with that, he becomes dispassionate toward what is supreme, and even more so toward what is inferior.

[8] "The supreme view-point external [to the Dhamma] is this: 'I should not be; it should not occur to me; I will not be; it will not occur to me.' Of one with this view it may be expected that '[the perception of] unloathsomeness of becoming will not occur to him, and [the perception of] loathsomeness of the cessation of becoming will not occur to him.' And there are beings who have this view. Yet even in the beings who have this view there is still aberration, there is change. Seeing this, the instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with that. Being disenchanted with that, he becomes dispassionate toward what is supreme, and even more so toward what is inferior.

[9] "There are some priests & contemplatives who declare the foremost purity of the spirit. [4] Now, of those who proclaim the foremost purity of the spirit, these are supreme: those who, with the complete transcending of the dimension of nothingness, enter & remain in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception and who, having directly known & realized this, teach their Dhamma. And there are beings who teach in this way. Yet even in the beings who teach in this way there is still aberration, there is change. Seeing this, the instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with that. Being disenchanted with that, he becomes dispassionate toward what is supreme, and even more so toward what is inferior.

[10] "There are some priests & contemplatives who proclaim the foremost Unbinding in the here-&-now. Now, of those who proclaim the foremost Unbinding in the here-&-now, this is supreme: liberation through non-clinging, having known, as they actually are present, the arising, the passing away, the allure, the drawbacks of, & the escape from the six sense-contact media. And when I teach that, when I point that out, some priests & contemplatives accuse me of being false, unfactual, hollow, vain, [saying,] 'The contemplative Gotama does not declare the full comprehension of sensuality, does not declare the full comprehension of forms, does not declare the full comprehension of feelings.' But I do declare the full comprehension of sensuality, I do declare the full comprehension of forms, I do declare the full comprehension of feelings. Unhungering, unbound, cooled in the here-&-now, I declare total Unbinding from lack of clinging."

Notes

1.The Rose-apple continent is an ancient name for the Indian sub-continent. Classical Buddhist cosmology regarded the world as arranged in four continents around Mt. Suneru. On the south was the Rose-apple continent; on the west, the Deathless Ox-cart continent; on the north, the Northern Kuru continent; and on the east, the Eastern Videha continent.2.The phrase "a thousand heavens of the Nimmanaratis, and a thousand heavens of the Paranimmitavasavattis" is in the Sinhalese edition of the Pali canon, but not in the Thai edition.3.Advayam.4.See Sn 4.11, notes 2 and 4.

Amazing Sutta. Can we open it up for discussion?

Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.” - Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:in mountain clefts and chasms,loud gush the streamlets,but great rivers flow silently.- Sutta Nipata 3.725

One question that comes to mind is the extent to which all these realms & totality of the world must be known, and if that might vary depending on ones ambitions or extent of buddhahood; or if witnessing all this in such a way, or another way is a requisite even for arahatship. This is the first time I've seen Kasinas mentioned in suttas, as well. There are other questions too.

Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php

If you read carefully, you'll see that Section 10 is granted the highest value and that all other sections prior to that finish with the following refrain... "there is still aberration, there is change. Seeing this, the instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with that. Being disenchanted with that, he becomes dispassionate toward what is supreme, and even more so toward what is inferior."

In other words, none of those other things are goals in and of themselves and if one pursue them, they may in time come to see their unsatisfactory nature.

Without knowledge of this totality, can the extent of the teaching be actualized?

Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php

convivium wrote:Without knowledge of this totality, can the extent of the teaching be actualized?

Yes. The extent of the teaching is the suffering of cessation.

In relation to any special knowledges or attainments "the instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with that. Being disenchanted with that, he becomes dispassionate toward what is supreme, and even more so toward what is inferior"

Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php

Yes. I can't remember which sutta it is but somewhere there is a sutta that says that people don't even need to be adept in the advanced stages of samadhi in order to attain arahantship. In part that's where the old "dry insight" debate comes in...

Yes. I can't remember which sutta it is but somewhere there is a sutta that says that people don't even need to be adept in the advanced stages of samadhi in order to attain arahantship. In part that's where the old "dry insight" debate comes in...

Metta,Retro.

"So just now, friends, didn't you make that declaration without having attained any of these Dhammas?"

Mahamanvantara (Sanskrit) “The Great Day.” A period of universal activity, as opposed to a Mahapralaya, a cosmic night or period of rest.

Mahakalpa (Sanskrit; kappa in Pali) Maha means "great." Kalpa is a reference to an extended expanse of time, an age, or a "day of Brahma." Traditionally, it is said that there are four kalpas: formation, existence, destruction and emptiness (each portion is called asamkhyeya-kalpa). All four together are the lifespan of a world, and collectively are a complete cycle, called maha kalpa. Each of the four principle kalpas is subdivided into twenty antara-kalpas, or "small kalpas." There are different distinctions and illustrations of kalpas. In general, a small kalpa is represented as 16,800,000 years, a kalpa as 336,000,000 years and a mahakalpa is 1,334,000,000 years. Yet, these numbers are symbolic, not literal.

Any thoughts come up on this?

Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.” - Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:in mountain clefts and chasms,loud gush the streamlets,but great rivers flow silently.- Sutta Nipata 3.725

“From the Mahakundalini (Cosmic Energy) the universe has sprung. In Her Supreme Form She is at rest, coiled round and one (as Chidrupini) with the Siva-bindu. She is then at rest. She next uncoils Herself to manifest. Here the three coils of which the Kundalini Yoga speaks are the three Gunas and the three and a half coil are the Prakriti and its three Gunas, together with the Vikritis. Her 50 coils are the letters of the Alphabet. As she goes on uncoiling, the Tattvas and the Matrikas, the Mother of the Varnas, issue from Her. She is thus moving, and continues even after creation to move in the Tattvas so created. For, as they are born of movement, they continue to move. The whole world (Jagat), as the Sanskrit term implies, is moving. She thus continues creatively acting until She has evolved Prithvi, the last of the Tattvas. First She creates mind, and then matter. This latter becomes more and more dense.” - Swami Sivananda, Kundalini Yoga

The Cosmic Night arrives when the ingathering of the perfect souls is complete, which means, when the Cosmic Day is absolutely perfected." - Samael Aun Weor, The Pistis Sophia Unveiled...

and said:

everyone eventually reaches the absolute.. After a certain number of cycles through the abyss, mechanically round and round the wheel of samsara 1000's of times, there essences finally are defeated after many eons of suffering on the wheel and in the abysses and they go to reside in the Absolute in Bliss.. But they are not self realized essences.. they do not have mastery..They are like fireflies and a master is like a GIANT sun to them..And this is already happened.. Tune into it and see...Time is a dream..Dimensions are changing moment by moment.. We are always entering new ones..

For me there is little understanding of these concepts, but in trying to understand this idea of the expansion and contraction of the universe of (mind and matter) via this "sexual" model, (yin yang, kundalini, etc.) is to see how in the way in which sentient beings are collectively relating to these forces, relates to the expansion and contraction of the universe... we can see the sexual degradation in society today from all it's suppression and also seem to be falling apart. It makes sense in this sense that within the world, expansion and contraction can exist on the macro as well as the micro level; as above so below. It's hard to grasp the "sexual" model. The inevitable enlightenment that results from aeons of this process, is a hindu notion. I don't know how this relates to other lokas (hell beings etc). There seems little neccesity for concern with the cosmological realities; only their practical applications. So in a sense, I am not sure what can be drawn from this in the context of the sutta, but ultimately even that brahma or absolute you speak about is not ultimate, and the ultimate end of all masters must be nibbana. Beyond therevada this sexual energy is used alchemically to create esoteric bodies on the bodhisattva path, i.e. http://www.sacred-sex.org/buddhism. The power in the sexual force is apparent and I seek to better acknowledge and understand it in the Therevada context... That we don't need to enter the Brahma realm or go beyond first jhana to attain nibbana without remainder, then perhaps it is not so directly a concern after all. then again, perhaps it depends on the extent to which we seek to serve other beings, seek knowledge, etc.

Last edited by convivium on Wed May 19, 2010 6:02 am, edited 3 times in total.

Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php

retrofuturist wrote:Yes. The extent of the teaching is the suffering of cessation.

Suffering Cessations Batman!

“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.” ― Ajahn Chah

convivium wrote:For me there is little understanding of these concepts, but in trying to understand this idea of the expansion and contraction of the universe of (mind and matter) via this "sexual" model, (yin yang, kundalini, etc.) is to see how in the way in which sentient beings are collectively relating to these forces, relates to the expansion and contraction of the universe... we can see the sexual degradation in society today from all it's suppression and also seem to be falling apart. It makes sense in this sense that within the world, expansion and contraction can exist on the macro as well as the micro level; as above so below. It's hard to grasp the "sexual" model. The inevitable enlightenment that results from aeons of this process, is a hindu notion. I don't know how this relates to other lokas (hell beings etc). There seems little neccesity for concern with the cosmological realities; only their practical applications. So in a sense, I am not sure what can be drawn from this in the context of the sutta, but ultimately even that brahma or absolute you speak about is not ultimate, and the ultimate end of all masters must be nibbana. Beyond therevada this sexual energy is used alchemically to create esoteric bodies on the bodhisattva path, i.e. http://www.sacred-sex.org/buddhism. The power in the sexual force is apparent and I seek to better acknowledge and understand it in the Therevada context... That we don't need to enter the Brahma realm or go beyond first jhana to attain nibbana without remainder, then perhaps it is not so directly a concern after all. then again, perhaps it depends on the extent to which we seek to serve other beings, seek knowledge, etc.

If you want to understand the Theravadin point of view, you need to let go of your notions and preconceptions and spend some time with the teachings and works of respected scholars and practice the Noble Eightfold Path. Ideas about cosmologies abd sexual energies are just a distraction from the main game, liberating oneself from greed, aversion and ignorance.

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.” - Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:in mountain clefts and chasms,loud gush the streamlets,but great rivers flow silently.- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Ideas true. we must come to understand forces beyond the chimerical. there's models and there's method. on the literal level i wonder the extent to which experience of the totalty described differs as taught by different traditions/masters. in the end of course it comes back to nibbana-ing; but to approach by keeping a chaste mind, w/ Brahmaviharas, altruism, humility, prayer, etc. seems within the eightfold path.

Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php

convivium wrote:One question that comes to mind is the extent to which all these realms & totality of the world must be known, and if that might vary depending on ones ambitions or extent of buddhahood; or if witnessing all this in such a way, or another way is a requisite even for arahatship. This is the first time I've seen Kasinas mentioned in suttas, as well. There are other questions too.

Very interesting discourse having to do with perception and beyond perception.

It is possible to attain Arahatship with the use of inferential logic. For example being disenchanted with the 7 stations of consciousness and 2 bases. If you can understand enough to understand that they are impermanent and you understand what is impermanent is sufferingthat could form a basis for a monastic to attain Arahantship here and now.

It can also be helpful for lay people to attain Stream Winner, Once-Returner, and Non-Returner. Using disenchantment to abandon the fetter of personality view.

9.Seven stations of consciousness and two spheres:There are beings with diversity of body and diversity of perception, such as human beings, some devas, and some beings in the lower realms. This is the first station of consciousness.

There are beings with diversity of body and singularity of perception, such as the devas of the Brahma hosts generated by the first [jhana]. This is the second station of consciousness.

There are beings with singularity of body and diversity of perception, such as the Radiant Devas. This is the third station of consciousness.

There are beings with singularity of body and singularity of perception, such as the Beautifully Lustrous Devas. This is the fourth station of consciousness.

There are beings who, with the complete transcending of perceptions of [physical] form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, and not heeding perceptions of diversity, [perceiving,] 'Infinite space,' arrive at the dimension of the infinitude of space. This is the fifth station of consciousness.

There are beings who, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of space, [perceiving,] 'Infinite consciousness,' arrive at the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness. This is the sixth station of consciousness.

There are beings who, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, [perceiving,] 'There is nothing,' arrive at the dimension of nothingness. This is the seventh station of consciousness.

The dimension of non-percipient beings and, second, the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. These are the two spheres.

— Maha-nidana Suttanta, DN 15

inferential logic? like locke? isn't that analogous to unverified superstition?

Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php