Well, I've read The Satanic Bible, and I have to say that nearly all of it is in tune with who I've already been for years. I just have a couple concerns that maybe someone could address.

First, the whole magic bit about halfway through the book lost me. Not lost in the sense that it was confusing or too heady for me. I'm just not into that stuff, and never will be under any cirumstances. I am a man of science, period. If this disqualifies me as a Satanist, so be it, as I'm not one to lie to myself about my beliefs and values. It's one of the reasons Christianity and other religions are such a turn-off to me: too much of what I call "hocus pocus." In my opinion, the ritualistic side of any religion is counter-productive and a waste of time, as much as praying is. If I want something, I take sensical, earthly actions to achieve it. To me, Satanism is a philosophy, not a religion. Throughout my whole life, it's always the philosophies (Satanism, Taoism, etc) that have attracted me, NOT religions.

Second, on the topic of compassion. I'm a person who believes we're all born a clean slate. Any hereditary mental/physical disabilities aside, we are a product of our environment and our upbringing. I believe everyone has potential to be successful and to achieve a level of greatness (whatever that may be for that person). The Satanic Bible talks of the "strong" and the "weak," but being a big advocate of relativism, I have to argue: who defines those terms? What one person defines as strong, others might consider weak. As I understand TSB (and I may be interpreting it incorrectly), the homeless would be considered weak, and we should just leave them to die. Is this correct? Obviously, being a person who is capable of objective and logical thought, I can say that many homeless are where they are due to pure laziness. But that may not always be the case. Is it possible that a powerful CEO could one day be homeless, due to whatever circumstances? Absolutely. I've always had a soft spot for the homeless, I'm not sure why. It pains me to think that there are people who have no roof over their head. Yet I am wary of the portion of the homeless who are nothing more than leeches. Recently, I was in a gourmet popcorn store in the city, and an apparently homeless guy walked in and asked if I could buy him some popcorn. Sure, why not? I won't give them money ever, but my policy is, once in a while I'll buy them food. So I buy this guy a bag of popcorn, and he walks off, WITHOUT EVEN A THANKS. Mother-fucker!! And I'm sure many of you are reading this, chuckling and thinking "I told you so." You're right. I extended myself to this guy, and he was a fucking ingrate. If I wasn't concerned with him physically harming me in a dark alley, I would've planted a big fat footprint on his ass and told him to go to hell. So, do you ignore the homeless who ask for money or food? Is it within the Satanist's beliefs to do so? What if it's winter out, and you see a homeless woman and child on the steps of a building, freezing their asses off. Then what? Is it different from the homeless guy who's asking for something? I guess a good question is, at what point would a Satanist say to him/herself, "I know my life is about me and my loved ones first and foremost, but damn..these people need help." That's something I could probably never give up. If I see someone who needs help and it costs me nothing to help them, I'll do it. In the section of TSB where LaVey talks about psychic vampires, he very eloquently states that you have to weigh the give and take in your relationship with someone. If it costs me nothing to pick up a baby toy off the ground and go up to the mother twenty feet away and say "You dropped this," I'll do it. If she's already opening the door to her car in the parking lot 150 feet away, forget it. If I then see a note on the baby toy, "$100 reward if returned," then I'll find myself bolting to her car before she drives off.

Now, all that being said about me helping strangers and whatnot, there's a catch to it. If I help someone out and they show no appreciation, they are an ass. Whereas a right-hand pather might blow this off, I say bullshit. Everyone is capable of expressing gratitude. And if I fix someone's computer and they offer no thanks, I'm likely to discreetly fuck it up again on purpose, then decline when they ask for help again. I also refuse to help people who I perceive to be lazy or slackers. People who I know are intelligent and motivated, I have no problem helping, and I get a certain level of satisfaction teaching things to people who are receptive to learning and actually show progress. I'll also help people who reciprocate in some manner.

Enough of the whole compassion thing, I think I've beaten it to death. Essentially, although The Satanic Bible struck a chord in me, I don't know if I really fit the profile. Do I need to? Of course not. Anyone can take on the title of Satanist, or Buddhist, or Sikh, or whatever. But I refuse to label myself something I'm not. The whole point of this post is not for validation. I couldn't give a shit whether I'm a Satanist or not. I will continue happily living my life the way I have for years now, helping those who need it and appreciate it and grow from my help, rather than helping those who remain stuck and useless. I'll continue to indulge in everything and anything I damn well please, as long as it doesn't harm others. But I'll never refer to myself as a Satanist unless I really fit the bill, because a poser I am not.

Thanks for reading, and thanks for your time. Pardon any ignorance in my post, I'm still gauging my understanding of Satanism and weighing it against my own values.

As far as magic is concerned, you are trying to look at it from what you've been told by pseudo-Satanists, wanna-be-occultists and Christian heretics. It takes some time to grasp, but the concept of magic is an applied psychology. A way to vent your desires or frustrations into a productive channel to meet your ends. The ritual in itself is for drama effect. I would suggest reading the magic part in the Satanic Bible a few times, as it seems most people miss the point the first time reading through it. It does not require a literal belief in an external deity called "the devil" that you are trying to summon. Satan is a force in nature. If you ask how I know this, I only ask you to apply the Satanic principles to your life and see it's effect on your world. Whether these prove positive is ultimately up to the individual.

Actually, I'm not looking at magic from that perspective at all, I was just going by my gut feeling as I was reading that section. I'm just not a ritual person. I don't believe casting spells or throwing curses really does anything, and I understand the whole psychology aspect of it, *and* I see its importance, but I can just as easily sit here and close my eyes and envision an enemy burning to death, rather than setting up an altar, and performing a physical ritual. I only do what feels natural to me. And magic and rituals has never been something I've ever been into. It's just not my bag.

I forgot to mention another thing. I remain agnostic in the aspect of life after death. I accept that I don't know what happens.. I don't subscribe to any notions of reincarnation or the idea that life just ends and you're dead. I simply don't know, and right now I don't care. I'll find out when I die.

Quote:I'm just not into that stuff, and never will be under any cirumstances. I am a man of science, period.

Being a man of science shouldn't prevent you from being a man of drama, too. It may help you to grasp the spirit of magic if you consider the references Magus Gilmore sometimes makes to it in interviews, as "psychodrama". The object is to make yourself into a creature of your own art, by drawing on ritual and theatric techniques.

This, of course, is only the beginning, but you may find it helpful. Many of us have found a great deal of practical and emotional gain in some level of ritual. You may get a lot out of studying the rites of ancient and primitive cultures (eg., the festivals to Dionysus at which Oedipus Rex was first run; or the cannibal dances of the Pacific Northwest tribes like the Kak'wakwa).

But as for your Big Question:

Quote:So, do you ignore the homeless who ask for money or food? Is it within the Satanist's beliefs to do so?

This is a complex question.

Satanism does not have any particular politics associated with it. That is a question of your own discretion in applying Satanism to your own life.

The Satanic Bible has nothing to say about homeless people that I can remember.

But "strong" and "weak" are not just matters of interpretation.

What matters MOST, above all, is whether YOU have power over your OWN life.

Your introduction suggests you're basically a pretty competent guy, and can look after yourself financially. That's part of "strength".

Another part is whether you're morally, spiritually, or psychically beholden to anyone else.

Whether you're a generous or compassionate person isn't quite as important to us as whether you are compassionate as an indulgence, as an appreciation of your own success -- or as a compulsion, as a response to fend off guilt or shame at your own success.

That's the issue. Only you can answer that.

The Church of Satan isn't going to tell you what your political or social beliefs should be.

I'd say that a large number of Satanists initially have the same impression of magic/the "supernatural"/occultism as you. Many experiment with ritual, and find it to be surprisingly gratifying and useful. Others never quite take to it.

I would say that a Satanist must be willing to doubt, experiment, and cultivate a sense of wonder, all at once. It's all about testing to see what works, and what's true, without knee-jerkedly adhering to a standard of gullibility nor a method of hard-line skepticism.

Once you've researched Satanism more and tried it on for size, I'd recommend that you try doing a sincere ritual. If anything, you may find that it's a good emotional release.

The Satanic Bible talks of the "strong" and the "weak," but being a big advocate of relativism, I have to argue: who defines those terms?

That is a very good and very important question to ask.

When I was a green young Satanist, I wrestled with this issue quite aggressively, because I'm someone who would be considered by Neo-Nazis and staunch eugenicists to be physically weak and possibly genetically flawed. I wanted to make sure that Satanists were not going to hold me to some asinine or arbitrary standard.

I found that, for the most part, what determines weakness or strength to most Satanists is an individual's ability to use what they have and reach their full potential for thriving and surviving, while avoiding the principle Satanic Sins.

You are correct that people are complex, so that a person who is weak according to one standard is strong according to another, and that people who languish in one field can flourish in another.

But, I think there are some people one could safely say are generally impressive and admirable, and there are certain people one can safely call weak, stupid, ineffectual, pathetic, or disgusting.

More importantly, and more helpfully, there are actions, attitudes, personality types, and behaviors that one can typically call "good" or "bad," in terms of whether they promote strength and overcome weakness.

As I understand TSB (and I may be interpreting it incorrectly), the homeless would be considered weak, and we should just leave them to die. Is this correct?

Generally, yes, although Satanists will of course differ in their interpretations of these kinds of issues, sometimes in very subtle ways.

I might tend to say that most homeless people, period, are weak simply because they have shown that they're unable or unwilling to rise up from circumstances that they usually despise. I don't necessarily say this with hate or derision, mind you, because I feel a bit sorry for the authentically handicapped or mentally ill, the battered women on the run from abusive husbands, the teenagers escaping abusive parents or guardians, and the starry-eyed young people whose stocks took an abrupt dive.

But, if strength is being able to rise above bad circumstances, turn liabilities into assets, and not become a casualty of natural selection, then, the proof's in the pudding.

As for "deserving to die," sometimes Satanists will assert that the homeless actually deserve to die because they're leeches and eyesores, and sometimes Satanists will just say that deserve it or not, many homeless will die simply because that's what usually happens to you if you live that hard-knock life. (Often, both points will be made simultaneously.)

So I buy this guy a bag of popcorn, and he walks off, WITHOUT EVEN A THANKS.

And that is exactly why many people--and many Satanists--can't stand the homeless.

My main peeve is with the "quasi-homeless." These are the kids who like to bum around for fun and then ask you for money. Little shits, they are.

Anyway, I digress. Well, at least you can say you learned some kind of a lesson from this, and it only cost you some gourmet popcorn. I'd say, the lesson is not to stop doing kind things for people. The lesson here is to be more careful about who you're kind to, and stop to think and to read the signs before doing that good deed.

o, do you ignore the homeless who ask for money or food?

1) I avoid eye contact.

2) I say, "Sorry, can't help you."

I guess a good question is, at what point would a Satanist say to him/herself, "I know my life is about me and my loved ones first and foremost, but damn..these people need help."

When a Satanist really, truly cares about a group, a person, or an issue, then he or she should do something about it.

From there, you can ask yourself, "What does my cause/group/issue of choice really need to thrive and succeed in the long term? What can I do to help make that happen, without hurting or cheating myself?"

If you're worried about the homeless, I imagine there are many things you can do without giving them money straight up on the street, or buying them food when they demand it. You could give to a reputable shelter or charity, or donate time at a soup kitchen. You could devise your own program--social, religious, political--aimed at helping the homeless, or killing whatever you think the roots of homelessness are.

Just be sure to not complain about any burdens or assholes to which you needn't subject yourself. If you see your time, energy, or money going down the drain, and you hate that, then stop doing the things that cause that problem for you.

_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

For any others reading this thread I suggest two comments by Anton LaVey:

Regarding magic:

"Magic works in harmony with nature. Bearing that in mind, I can assure you that I have stumbled onto something. Magic works. I would do it whether people attended the Church of Satan and did it with me or not."-(page 98, The Devil's Avenger)

Regarding compassion for strangers (homeless or otherwise):

"Responsiblity to the responsible."

The above quote represents my attitude toward the author of this post.

Really well-put. Thank you. To answer that, my compassion is something that I just have within me. I do NOTHING out of guilt or obligation, I broke free from those chains years ago. Hell, even if my own family tries to pull crap on me, like "Oh that's fine, go ahead and do <such and such>," I just say "Okay, I will, thanks!" I love my family but I let them know, along with everyone else in my life, that I don't operate on those levels. I don't take hints either, if someone wants a favor, they had better come out and just ask me.

So when I help someone, I do it for the right reasons: just because I feel like helping someone who's in a bind, as long as it doesn't impose too much on me. This rule of mine applies to animals, too.

I find myself having similar feelings to Zephirus regarding Satanism with respects to Ritual. I find formalized ritual unappealing. If I want social interaction, I prefer the informal ritual of dinner and drinks. If I want to focus my mind, I prefer to do it through the ritual of taking a walk or petting my cats. Formalized religious ritual, regardless of whether or not there is supernatural appeal being made, does not hold appeal. It is one of the things preventing me from joining CoS despite considering it on and off for many years. Another is my lack of interest in accepting the notion that someone is my better based on organizational title (I balk at this in the work I do in order to pay for my otherwise nice life, why would I take on more heirarchy socially?). I do not consider anyone to be my better, and do not accept what someone says to be true simply based on their role as a formal authority figure (and I do find myself not in full agreement with some of the writings of CoS leadership).

Regarding compassion and altruism, while I certainly don't purport to speak for anyone else, my own reconciliation with such drives and my own sense of self value is that I acknowledge that I perform such acts in order to achieve self satisfaction and other personal reward may give you a path to consider for yourself. I do not lie to myself that I have some Xtian duty to a higher power to promote loving kindness. I accept that when I help someone, it is for a reason. When I help a friend, it is because they are part of my chosen family and have already established a history of deserving my help or else they would not be my friend. If they violate that trust, they stop being my friend. I do not forgive them undeservingly, they would need to re-earn my trust and love. When I stand for some social cause, it is because I feel that by doing so I promote some benefit to myself: social stability, defense of rights against dogmatic Xtian incursions, erosion of the power of undeserved and unearned elites, and so on. I share your idea that people are born with a clean slate and should not be a priori dismissed as worthless without being given a chance to prove their worth. I disdain social structures which retard people's chances to prove their worth, and am disgusted at talent wasted by a system which rewards cloying toadies and sycophants, hiding behind weak claims of being a meritocracy. My assessment of many situations is that compassion and altruism benefit me, and in those cases I am happy to help. When I am wrong, I stop helping.

Whether or not you decide to call yourself a Satanist is your own decision and not something I claim to have any insights into, but I wanted to put forward the idea that not all compassion and altruism comes from blind faith and stupidity. It can be something you accept as a strategic or tactical necessity, or even for some people as fetish/religion in and unto itself.

>>I am a man of science, period. If this disqualifies me as a Satanist, so be it, as I'm not one to lie to myself about my beliefs and values.

Then all the more reason to utilize magic.

All science was once seen as magic.

I am a man of sciences myself. I view magic as one of those amazing aspects of life that is hard to a draw conclusion on but is nevertheless there and is quite useful.

Don't throw a useful tool out just because mainstream scientists have no sense of creativity and depth.

>>In my opinion, the ritualistic side of any religion is counter-productive and a waste of time, as much as praying is.

Praying is a waste of time because you place your desires and needs in a fictional deity. That is like rubbing a lamp hoping a genie will pop out and grant you three wishes.

Rituals on the other hand are very useful. I would be surprised if you have never ritualized before. I ritualize when I paint, compose music, work out, make love, and when I do many other such intimate situations. Ritualizing is a part of what it is to be human and it is a very powerful tool which can achieve astounding results.

You need to study, practice, and don't look a gift horse in the mouth. They bite!

_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

Nemo, I wanted to tell you, I appreciate your welcome in my introduction thread. And please note, my comment you pointed out in this thread was not meant to insult. My point is, I don't care what labels are put upon me, I am what I am. I wanted to make it clear that I am not here seeking approval. There are plenty who would seek out Satanism because it's "cool" (pseudo-Satanists). I just wanted to emphasize that I'm not one of them, hence the quotation you referenced. I know it didn't quite come across right, sorry about that. What I should've said was, if, by the tenets of Satanism, I'm not a Satanist, then that's okay, I won't lose sleep over it.

First, the whole magic bit about halfway through the book lost me. Not lost in the sense that it was confusing or too heady for me. I'm just not into that stuff, and never will be under any cirumstances. I am a man of science, period. If this disqualifies me as a Satanist, so be it, as I'm not one to lie to myself about my beliefs and values. .......If I want something, I take sensical, earthly actions to achieve it. To me, Satanism is a philosophy, not a religion. Throughout my whole life, it's always the philosophies (Satanism, Taoism, etc) that have attracted me, NOT religions.

There are certainly those who would label themselves Satanists who do not practice Greater Magic, or ceremonial ritual. That is one of the best things about Satanism, it is a religion of individuals. As long as you agree with the key points of Satanism.

I would point out, however, that you are practicing Lesser Magic if you "take sensical, earthly actions to achieve" whatever is your desire.

Quote:Second, on the topic of compassion. I'm a person who believes we're all born a clean slate. Any hereditary mental/physical disabilities aside, we are a product of our environment and our upbringing. I believe everyone has potential to be successful and to achieve a level of greatness (whatever that may be for that person). The Satanic Bible talks of the "strong" and the "weak," but being a big advocate of relativism, I have to argue: who defines those terms? What one person defines as strong, others might consider weak.

By "clean slate" do you mean "equal"? Humans are all produced in the same manner, but I would submit the equality ends there. Obviously we are not all born equal. You have already pointed out some of the differences. It is not necessarily what you are born with as much as what you do with what you are born with.(and I include enviromental factors here also) Those who are born to be elite in some manner will rise to the top in spite of their origins, they are obviously not weak.(Just look at the origins of some of the most famous scientists, authors, actors, musicians, etc.)

Conversely, there are always those born with every advantage who just wallow in their own shit. They will never amount to anything either, despite their origins. I don't see stratification as cut and dried as the nuture thing as much as being born with the hutzpa to rise above others.

If you see everyone as being successful, even if, in their minds, that simply means learning to keep their mouths shut so they don't drool, then we simply would not be recognizing the elite. They are still there, but you just refuse to recognize they are somehow stronger. Yeah, the droolers can be proud of themselves if they want, but that does not erase the fact that they are not at par with say...Ben Franklin. Obviously there are levels of stratification.

Quote:As I understand TSB (and I may be interpreting it incorrectly), the homeless would be considered weak, and we should just leave them to die. Is this correct? Obviously, being a person who is capable of objective and logical thought, I can say that many homeless are where they are due to pure laziness. But that may not always be the case. Is it possible that a powerful CEO could one day be homeless, due to whatever circumstances? Absolutely.

Sure, a CEO can one day be homeless, but if he got to be a CEO on his own merits and not by virtue of his father giving him the job or what have you, then he will pull himself back up and do what it takes not to be homeless. If he is a slackard by nature then he is where he deserve to be.

Should we let the homeless just die? For some that would be doing themselves and the rest of society a favor, in my opinion. You answer this question yourself later in your post, see my next response.

Quote:I've always had a soft spot for the homeless, I'm not sure why. It pains me to think that there are people who have no roof over their head. Yet I am wary of the portion of the homeless who are nothing more than leeches.

I see it that homeless people do not need to be homeless. There are always ways to get off the streets, in this country anyway. I have worked with many clients who have been homeless and destitute, but have worked hard to better themselves. That is the key. You have already pointed out that a lot of these people just want handouts and are not willing to do anything to help themselves. They are weak and lazy and do not deserve your time or concern. How many bags of popcorn do you buy ingrates before you say "fuck this". If, on the other hand you derive some pleasure from helping the mother and child on the steps go ahead and do it. The important thing is that you are not doing it out of some kind of moral obligation to the human race. You are doing it out of pure pleasure on your part. If it is a burden to you and it will hurt you or your loved ones in some way, then think at that time in terms of self preservation, which is what that homeless person should be thinking about.

Quote:I also refuse to help people who I perceive to be lazy or slackers. People who I know are intelligent and motivated, I have no problem helping, and I get a certain level of satisfaction teaching things to people who are receptive to learning and actually show progress. I'll also help people who reciprocate in some manner.

Bingo! You are deriving a certain amount of pleasure because you know these people are possibly deserving of your attention. That is the key.

Quote:Essentially, although The Satanic Bible struck a chord in me, I don't know if I really fit the profile. Do I need to? Of course not. Anyone can take on the title of Satanist, or Buddhist, or Sikh, or whatever. But I refuse to label myself something I'm not. The whole point of this post is not for validation. I couldn't give a shit whether I'm a Satanist or not. I will continue happily living my life the way I have for years now, helping those who need it and appreciate it and grow from my help, rather than helping those who remain stuck and useless. I'll continue to indulge in everything and anything I damn well please, as long as it doesn't harm others. But I'll never refer to myself as a Satanist unless I really fit the bill, because a poser I am not.

Only you can answer these questions. Being true to yourself is the important thing, whether you label yourself Satanist or not. It is good that you are thinking about these things and studying Satanism rather than rushing ahead and just taking on a label that may have no meaning to you.

Hail Satan!

_________________________
"It does take an exceptional mind and a still more exceptional integrity to remain untouched by the brain-destroying influences of the world's doctrines, the accumulated evil of the centuries-to remain human, since the human is the rational." Dr. Akston in Atlas Shrugged

As has been stated, many Satanists consider Greater Magic to be simply psychodrama that helps one to vent harmful emotions relating to this or that or the other so one can tackle the matter more reasonably. And Lesser Magic is of course simply applied psychology, NLP, etc.

On homeless people:

Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it, instead of love wasted on ingrates!

Satan represents responsibility to the responsible, instead of concern for psychic vampires!

I have no pity for homeless people begging etc. I have, also, been homeless, due to unfortunate circumstances, for about a month when I was 18. During that month, I encountered Hell on Earth, and yet I never begged. Nor did I ever lose pride in Myself. I was the most presentable homeless person around. I passed by other homeless people and they asked Me if I could spare some change. I looked into their pitiful pleading eyes, looking into their sad little paper cups holding coins, smiled, and told them, truthfully, that they had more money than I had. I travelled across Europe, actually, and met lots of interesting people, many of whom voluntarily offered Me transport, food, drinks, shelter, money, new clothes, all kinds. I was a dinner guest of quite a number of families, and one family actually had Me stay at their house for a few nights to recover a bit (I was ill, hungry, blistered, it was midwinter, I was crossing the Alps to get from France to Italy). I never asked for any of that charity, and yet I received it gratefully. I clawed My way back up into society with Nietzschean will and Machiavellian style. I charmed My hosts and they felt their lives enriched to have met such a remarkable individual, someone who had all these physical discomforts and yet was cheery and pleasant and asked for nothing.

Hello Zephirus, I think that may you need to be a little more critic with your actions, so you can't help someone when that someone didn't ask you for help, and you just think that he need it. Who can tell what is to be a poor person, it is relative.

The problem when you help somebody is that you never do that because you need a retribution, like a thanks, this is risk. The really need in compassion is do anything for other person without recive anything.

Magic, for me, is that feeling of be in change, every moment, with every step I take in any discipline. Sometimes people confuse magic with ritual, they are not the same, but sometimes they need each other.

Quote: Only you can answer these questions. Being true to yourself is the important thing, whether you label yourself Satanist or not. It is good that you are thinking about these things and studying Satanism rather than rushing ahead and just taking on a label that may have no meaning to you.

Yes, of course.. I'm an intelligent person. As some of you will find out, I do slip up and say stupid things once in a while But I've got brains. Otherwise I wouldn't be where I am today.

Thanks to everyone else who posted, too. Your responses have been extremely insightful and helpful to me!

You found yourself in an bad situation, but gradually worked your way out of it, and did the best you could to cope and thrive in the meantime.

Actually, if I don't sound too idealistic, it sounds like you had quite the adventure. If I were homeless, I'd definitely take the opportunity to travel where I wished and see the sights. (Sure as hell beats standing on a median with a stupid sign, like most homeless seem to do.)

_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

Quote: Only you can answer these questions. Being true to yourself is the important thing, whether you label yourself Satanist or not. It is good that you are thinking about these things and studying Satanism rather than rushing ahead and just taking on a label that may have no meaning to you.

Yes, of course.. I'm an intelligent person. As some of you will find out, I do slip up and say stupid things once in a while But I've got brains. Otherwise I wouldn't be where I am today.

Thanks to everyone else who posted, too. Your responses have been extremely insightful and helpful to me!

Ave Satanas!

I do hope that didn't come across as condescending. I recognize that you are a person with some brains, I did not mean to intimate otherwise. Good luck with your studies.

Hail Satan!

_________________________
"It does take an exceptional mind and a still more exceptional integrity to remain untouched by the brain-destroying influences of the world's doctrines, the accumulated evil of the centuries-to remain human, since the human is the rational." Dr. Akston in Atlas Shrugged

Awesome story, man. That's great that people helped you out like that. There are a lot of shitbags and scum out there, but there are some really solid, quality people as well, who make it all worth while.

Quote: Only you can answer these questions. Being true to yourself is the important thing, whether you label yourself Satanist or not. It is good that you are thinking about these things and studying Satanism rather than rushing ahead and just taking on a label that may have no meaning to you.

Yes, of course.. I'm an intelligent person. As some of you will find out, I do slip up and say stupid things once in a while But I've got brains. Otherwise I wouldn't be where I am today.

Thanks to everyone else who posted, too. Your responses have been extremely insightful and helpful to me!

Ave Satanas!

I do hope that didn't come across as condescending. I recognize that you are a person with some brains, I did not mean to intimate otherwise. Good luck with your studies.

Hail Satan!

No no.. no worries! I didn't feel you were condescending at all. Thanks again for your input!

I am very much alike the thread starter as well. I just can't assert myself into the whole magical portion and/or ritual portion of Satanism. I'd need empirical evidence that it is actually beneficial to me or results in something I'd determine worthy for further use.

And I also tend to not be as harsh (or as how I perceive TSB to have put it) to those less responsible. I've not ever given a homeless person money, but I haven't necassarily shunned them or been utterly rude to them. I'm just apathetic to their situation.

Overall I agree with most of the tenants of Satanism, as I see it much more as an ideal than a religion.

Quote:(Sure as hell beats standing on a median with a stupid sign, like most homeless seem to do.)

Because of the fabulous weather, San Diego has a lot of homeless people. Most of them are either mentally ill, drunken degenerates, or both. One beautiful day while waiting at a stoplight we saw one of the drunken degenerate variety sauntering toward the corner. First, he paused at a large bush, rifled through some of those cardboard signs until he found just the right one for the day, and then proceeded to the median with sign in hand.

(1) Real science does not rule out what we call Greater Magic in Satanism while scientism does.

Posturing bigots who claim to be able to "rule out" the effects of magic are thereby also claiming to be omniscient - a quality of the Judeo-Islamic-Christian God.

These are the true know-it-alls who don't.

Those who do not aspire to such heights of self-deluded hubris and take the name "Satanist" are willing to test and use tools that do work and do not care if ten thousand priests in white coats proclaim what "cannot" be.

What is, is.

Those of us who have discovered, as did Anton LaVey, that magic works will not try to convince others through argument or debate.

We are engineers of the real.

We are not evangelists for magic.

Usually we are very quiet about it.

It is a powerful tool and a secret weapon.

If you do not wish to avail yourself of tools that can go beyond what the current day technology offers, that is your choice.

The brainwashing of the masses to subservience works well in those who will not (as Aristotle suggested) look into the horse's mouth to count the number of teeth.

At this outer (public) level we do not discuss the details of what some forty years of magical experimentation has produced in terms of effective tools.

I will only simply state that like Anton LaVey, I know that magic works and will continue to use it because it does.

Those who do not wish to do not trouble me.

Neither do I bother to attempt to waken them from their deep sleep.

(2) "Responsibility to the responsible."

The bum who does not express gratitude for charity was molded to be that way by his "environment" as much as everything else that has "victimized" him?

That is merely an extension of the argument that charity should be offered to the chronically incompetent.

Another view is that each individual has free will and chooses how they will respond to anything that happens - internally and externally - whether due to genetics, politics or anything else.

We define as heroic those who courageously follow their inner will despite the "odds". So too does Satanism hold in contempt the man or woman who does the opposite and merely collapses and whines.

Anyone can have a run of "bad luck".

How they respond to it is what matters.

There is either a "ghost in the machine" who is worthy of judgment for their actions and choices, or all of humanity are merely mindless lumps of clay molded by the random machinations of a mechanical universe.

Satanism goes for number one as I see it.

This is a brutal and honest view of life.

It is not without heart. It has the greatest compassion for the heroic but also the greatest rejection of the vile.

If this appeals to you then you are of us.

If not then the world offers six billion variations on altruistic fairy tale claptrap to which you are welcome.

I charmed My hosts and they felt their lives enriched to have met such a remarkable individual, someone who had all these physical discomforts and yet was cheery and pleasant and asked for nothing.

But who initiated this exchange? Unless there's more to Linguascelesta's story, it seems these strangers offered him help without anything offered to them up front. And this is the kind of thing I like to see in humanity.

I'm very analytic myself and do not subscribe to magic. I vent my frustrations through visualizations much as you do. I did spend a considerable time as a Buddhist, so meditations and visualizations come fairly easily to me. I have a very narrow definition of what is and isn't science, and to me magic does not fall within the realm of science since it cannot be empirically tested and verified through the scientific method. Actually... It can, but I've yet to find a magister/magistra who would submit to such a thing. Prayer has been subjected to scientific investigation and has been found to be useless (big surprise.) I do believe in paranormal activity that is outside our current understanding of science, but until someone is able to propose a quantifiable experiment and find willing participants then the question of magic will remain one of faith for the individual practitioner. I've also been a very compassionate person my whole life, so I can relate there as well. My experience is that those who have nothing, earned nothing. If I gave money to every outstretched hand, I'd be broke in no time. Bums on the street, telemarkets for charities, collection plates in churches, infomercials on TV... the list goes on and on. I simply reply to bums that I don't carry cash on me (which is true enough.) There are a few handicapped people who can't help being what they are, but many people choose this lifestyle willingly and knowingly. I've found, time after time, that most of the helpless have no gratitude for any sort of assistance. Finding no tangible benefits in helping random people, I now limit myself to assisting those who may prove useful in the future and who I know will feel a debt of gratitude for what I've done for them. I believe that a Satanist is not a follower of LaVey, but a kindred spirit. We don't try to be like LaVey. LaVey just published a book which expressed what we've always known to be true. The big issue when it comes to being a Satanist or not is, "Are you having fun?" Really that's the whole point. I personally feel a kind of excitement wearing a pentagram under my shirt around a group of Christians. I get a kick out of the whole secrety cloak and dagger thing. Just a personal fetish of mine. It's my opinion that one should accept themselves as a Satanist only if doing so enriches their lives and makes the whole womb to grave experience more enjoyable.

I wish that I could have jumped in sooner. I always seem to come to late!

Quote:Unless there's more to Linguascelesta's story, it seems these strangers offered him help without anything offered to them up front. And this is the kind of thing I like to see in humanity.

I find this last statement somewhat disturbing. It begs the question of why. Why is this the "kind of thing" you want to see in humanity? Most of the time when people say something to this effect it is because they are either deluded about the nature of humanity or because they are parasites. I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt until you explain yourself.

I think this post of Magister Nemo's is just about the crux of the matter. Little more needs to be said and it elucidates perfectly who and what we would see as worthy of compassion or not.

Quite frankly, having compassion for those who show themselves to be wastrels serves absolutely no purpose anyway. And I cannot accept the argument that it simply makes one feel good. It makes me feel a lot better to show compassion to those who deserve it.

It is indeed not without heart:

A while ago I heard a story about a former world champion boxer who was now in retirement and enjoying his millions. He is walking in London and on a whim stops to offer a beggar a little money. Then he looks at the beggar and says "don't I know you?"

Turns out they used to go to school together. The beggar had been a highly ranked naval officer who had experienced a run of bad luck. His life had fallen apart - and he had let it.

To cut a long story short the boxer kitted him out in some new clothes and put him up in a good hotel and said this was "until he got himself back together."

The beggar got himself a job and in time payed the boxer back every penny. They remained good friends.

Now that is "kind of thing I like to see in humanity."

You might say, who initiated this exchange?

Well, perhaps the beggar had employed a spot of magic.

We all have a bit of good luck every so often. What counts is what we do with that luck. It's what we do with the magic.

Charles Bukowski said it best - "what matters most is how well you walk through the fire."

_________________________
"Unsparing, brave and laced with pathos and truth. u.v.ray is one of the more vivid voices shouting from the sidelines today."

See UVRAY's post above mine for an explanation of what I meant by "what I like to see in humanity." He illustrated my point perfectly. It is this reciprocal, even exchange (give and take) that I like to see in humanity, *NOT* the privileged filling the pockets of leeches. I think you must've misunderstood me, Maya. I'm for people helping people, not people helping parasites. And I'll pretend you never implied I was one.

I would and do fault those who beg and never attempt to then better their situation.

I condemn those who want to only blame others.

It is a brutal and selfish philosophy and religion.

Requiring people to take responsibility for themselves, and to take action in order to better their own lives, seems neither brutal nor selfish to me. What is selfish, from my viewpoint, is someone who blames another for their situation and expects them to provide support whilst doing nothing to deserve it. A complainer may be accurate in some part of their complaint, but what good is being "right" unless one has the will to take responsibility for oneself and do something about it?

Do not shrug off ritual as useless, just because you have no empirical evidence that it is worthwhile. You may be stubbornly clinging to your pragmatic view, only because you are entrenched in your scientific belief system. Science and ritual are not mutually exclusive. Just because we cannot adequately analyzed and verbalize the phenomena produced by ritual behavior, does not negate its existence. Evan a die-hard Scientist would not proclaim that there is nothing yet to be discovered. There is more to be discovered about the Mind, than we now claim we know conclusively at present.

I was raised without any adhered-to family religion, and never witnessed or experienced ritual in the traditional form before I tried it as a realized Satanist after maturity. I DID utilize formal ritual as described in TSB, after a powerful event in my life. I tried it with an open mind and focused passion, even though at that time, I had not yet understood its real potential, being a practical and skeptical person. But by focusing on my strong emotions in the ritual chamber, the force we call “Greater Magic” does concentrate and crystallize (if metaphorically) into a REAL and tangible phenomena. No, I cannot explain it….language is inadequate to do so. It has merit, whether you believe it or not at the moment. (And I am not asking you to have “faith”!)

Although it may not happen regularly, I assume you have experienced strong emotion at one time or other in your life. At those key moments, there is a chance to harness an incredible internal power to focus your will to productive ends. No, it is not new, and Dr. LaVey didn’t invent it….many others have utilized similar methods, such as many martial artists, yogis and shamans, etc. But please do not scoff at this until you have actually given some honest attempts at empowering yourself with it. You may be amazed at what you have so long ignored!

The way I see it, your compassion is just unfocused ritual. If you used ritual properly (There IS a Compassion Ritual in TSB), you would not be so compelled to randomly dole out help to the poor and downtrodden. You could then save your empathy for a truly deserving individual.

Thanks, Nadine. Going forward, I will keep an open mind on the topic of magic and ritual. I was just stating that right now, the concept is kind of odd/foreign to me. Certainly doesn't mean I'll always feel that way!

>>I'm just not into that stuff, and never will>>be under any cirumstances. I am a man of science,>>period.

Sounds like you take quite a dogmatic, conformist approach to science, not to mention being so sure of what you will or will never take interest in at any point in your life. I find that the people who are the most insistent on "not being able" to formally ritualize are those who are too self-conscious with the idea. They say "I'd feel silly doing that" even with nobody else in the room. They're afraid of willingly entering a subjective state, even if they'd still be in control in the back of their mind. They usually lack the concept of aesthetics too, and would just as well have no clue how to behave at a wedding or funeral.

>>In my opinion, the ritualistic side of any religion>>is counter-productive and a waste of time, as much as >>praying is.

The Satanic Bible makes it pretty clear why praying, with its apprehensive nature and all, is counter-productive. However the importance and benefit of organized ceremony is also explained. Are you sure you read that whole chapter "Some Evidence of a New Satanic Age"?

Also out of curiosity, tell me: are you one of those people who can't watch a movie without analyzing every scene, and telling everybody else in the room why one thing or another "couldn't happen"? Just wondering.

>>To me, Satanism is a philosophy, not a religion.

No, Satanism is a religion, not a philosophy. Religions include ceremony and dogma; philosophies do not. The fact that Satanism is non-theistic is irrelevant.

>>The Satanic Bible talks of the "strong" and the "weak,">>but being a big advocate of relativism,

Except when it comes to treating the scientific method as absolute dogma for reality, right? Anyway...

>>I have to argue: who defines those terms?

Nature, for the most part. Othertimes it's largely the self. Granted, "The Strong" and "The Weak" are not so finely defined and objective that every person or entity (businesses, restaurants, etc.) can be neatly placed in one category. But you can certainly look around this world and find two people where one is clearly inferior to the other. At some point you'll find two people where the differences are so great that it just defies common sense to say everybody is equal in ability and accomplishment.

>>As I understand TSB (and I may be interpreting it >>incorrectly), the homeless would be considered weak,>>and we should just leave them to die. Is this correct?

If a Satanist wants to give money to a bum, that's his or her own prerogative. Of course, we're not obligated to either. To paraphrase from The Satanic Bible, "There are some people who aren't happy unless they're helping others. Many of us, however, do not fit into this category." And with regards to the popcorn story, some concepts that are corollaries of The Satanic Bible are the 9 sins, and solipsism (in this case meaning projecting certain feelings and expecting things in return) is one of them.

Not being able to explain something doesn't mean it isn't there. Since I have not applied it, I do not know whether or not Satanic ritual allows one to focus their mind to harness an undescribed phenomenon or not.

For me, if someone describes a phenomenon as inhrently unknowable and then proceeds to give me a litany of specific details regarding the unknowable (which is what Xtianity does), I don't trust it for a minute. Heaven exists beyond all human knowing save after death, yet here is a list of entry requirements? Yeah, whatever.

However, I am much more open to "we're not sure why this works, but there is an observable impact on the universe you can see and feel when you do this thing." At least it's not "do this thing, and when you're dead, it'll totally pay off."

"But I don't have to know an answer. I don't feel frightened by not knowing things..." - Richard Feynman

The idea that by ritual (or certain other circumstance) one can enter a frame of mind where you become capable of things you didn't previously believe possible is not scientifically impossible. My preferred language for understanding such things manifest is also the language of science, and I am skeptical of any description which purports for a phenomenon to be inherently beyond understanding. I am not skeptical of the idea that there are things we don't yet understand, I'm just skeptical of any idea which claims to provide understanding until I've verified it for myself.

"What I cannot create, I do not understand." -- Feynman again

However, I think there are a lot of things about the universe we don't understand yet and am not totally dismissive of the idea that ritual may play a role in our access to and understanding of some of these phenomena (though I admit that my initial reaction to prevailing antirationalism in our society is to be resistatnt to the idea that ritualism and rationalism can be reconciled).

I do want to know why things work, to the fullest extent of my ability to do so, and thus remain Skeptical of any explanation which I can not explain, and dismissive of ones which claim I couldn't ever possibily hope to understand them because the mystery is just too great.

"The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing." -- Einstein

Scientific, rational understanding is a fetish for me. Whatever observable phenomena others may ascribe to ritual, magick, and the preternormal, however tangible the phenomenon, I will attempt to discover and understand the reductionist, mechanistic explanation for. I don't think there is only one way to describe understanding of and interaction with the universe, but for me I find the aesthetics of scientific understanding to hold great appeal. I will still use a tool I don't understand if it works when I apply it, but that won't stop me from trying to analyze its operations.

"Whenever a theory appears to you as the only possible one, take this as a sign that you have neither understood the theory nor the problem which it was intended to solve." - Karl Popper

(Quotations from physcists and philosophers are another fetish of mine, clearly.)

>>The idea that by ritual (or certain other circumstance) >>one can enter a frame of mind where you become capable of >>things you didn't previously believe possible is not >>scientifically impossible.

Even if we disregard the whole concept of Greater Magic, just for the sake of the argument here, it's clear that humans have always made use of ritualized expression, whether for religious or secular means. There is no "scientific" reason why we should watch a descending sphere on January 31st, shoot 21 guns into the air at certain events, or use our breath to extinguish flaming sticks on the anniversary of our date of birth. But there are reasons why we humans do these things, and it's not just for "tradition". Likewise, as the Satanic Bible mentions, Satanism recognizes both the science of psychology and the benefits of emotionalizing through ritual and dogma.

>>I don't think there is only one way to describe >>understanding of and interaction with the universe,>>but for me I find the aesthetics of scientific >>understanding to hold great appeal.

I do too, speaking as a mathematician myself. Though that's also what I love about the second half of The Satanic Bible. LaVey took an Occam's Razor to the occult world, and tried to see what works, why it works, and most importantly what it truly means for a ritual to "work". The first sentence of the Book of Belial brilliantly sums up so many things.

Quote: Another is my lack of interest in accepting the notion that someone is my better based on organizational title (I balk at this in the work I do in order to pay for my otherwise nice life, why would I take on more heirarchy socially?). I do not consider anyone to be my better, and do not accept what someone says to be true simply based on their role as a formal authority figure (and I do find myself not in full agreement with some of the writings of CoS leadership

If the hierarchy were merely some kind of mystical clique, then I would agree with you- however, I believe that NOT to be the case. Nor did any invisible god/friend put them there by divine right to rule. They did not get there by large charitable contributions. They got there by living ,by studying, by accomplishing. As you view the social interactions between really active members like BillM, UVRay, Virus9 ,Daark(these are NOT the only ones) and the general population of the board at all levels of experiance and learning,I think that process becomes evident in the level of response.Even more so, when the Magisters such Nemo and Svengali fine tune what has been said by all-or offer direction to where a clue of an answer might be found.

Quote:(and I do find myself not in full agreement with some of the writings of CoS leadership).

I am sure that you saw this coming. I admit being curious about this statement.Which ones?

I occasionally get the half-baked ones who try to rant to me about how it sucks to be homeless, until I walk off.

There is one homeless person I'm always happy to see, back where I go to school. He's always well-dressed, with a coat and quaint little cap, and he knows nearly everything about everything. He referred me to the film Iphegenia, gave me a brief history of the exploits of General Zhukov, and just generally shared fascinating (and, when I fact-checked them, startlingly accurate) facts about history and philosophy. I could scarcely retain it all.

Oh, and there's one woman I often see near the pedestrian promenade where I live, who is not homeless, but is one of those people who lives on the edge. She's morbidly, extremely obese, and wheelchair-bound, so it looks like she can't work or something, because whenever her rent is about due, she's out there, singing for change. She has the most amazing voice! Granted, it's not the best situation for her to be in, but I am at least impressed that she's found some way of getting by and using her skills, unlike the fully able-bodied kids who saunter up, shake their filthy dredlocks, and ask for change.

_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

He sounds like a very fascinating person. I would venture that you are one of the few he has met that can appreciate his intellect.

There is a common tactic that is used by the homeless in the beach areas down there. One afternoon I was approached by a guy with a dog and he was asking for change to buy dog food. So, I went into the corner market, bought a can of alpo, and told him to feed the dog.

Quote:First, the whole magic bit about halfway through the book lost me. Not lost in the sense that it was confusing or too heady for me. I'm just not into that stuff, and never will be under any cirumstances. I am a man of science, period. If this disqualifies me as a Satanist, so be it, as I'm not one to lie to myself about my beliefs and values. It's one of the reasons Christianity and other religions are such a turn-off to me: too much of what I call "hocus pocus." In my opinion, the ritualistic side of any religion is counter-productive and a waste of time, as much as praying is. If I want something, I take sensical, earthly actions to achieve it. To me, Satanism is a philosophy, not a religion. Throughout my whole life, it's always the philosophies (Satanism, Taoism, etc) that have attracted me, NOT religions.

Magic is not what you are thinking. It is not "hocus-pocus," voodoo, mumbo jumbo. Rituals are more like plays that are specifically geared for a certain type of feeling or emotion, just like in plays, they have comedies, tragedies, and melo-dramas, rituals target compassion, destruction, and lust.

It targets that emotion, trys to stir up psychodrama, in order to cause progression within the Satanist psychologically, and subconsciously.

Its like personal therapy if you will; so being a "man of science," has nothing to do with being against Satanic rituals, because they involve nothing that hinders science, however in the ritual room it works better to embrace the illusions.

I personally use the smoke and mirrors that Hollywood has so graciously doted upon the Satanist, because I find it adds to the fun, and aesthetics of the ritual experience.

Quote:Second, on the topic of compassion. I'm a person who believes we're all born a clean slate. Any hereditary mental/physical disabilities aside, we are a product of our environment and our upbringing.

So your saying a lion, if it's raised lovingly will always be sweet and tame, and never turn on the humans or smaller animals around it? Certainly not.

Quote:I believe everyone has potential to be successful and to achieve a level of greatness (whatever that may be for that person).

True; but Satanists tend to be "ahead of the curve," if you will, .

Quote: The Satanic Bible talks of the "strong" and the "weak," but being a big advocate of relativism, I have to argue: who defines those terms?

Nature; there is strong and there is weak, there is predators, and there is is prey. Social Darwinism is all around us, whether you choose to see it or not, is up to you.

Quote:What one person defines as strong, others might consider weak.

That is because society has a distorted view of what is strong and what is weak.

Nature however has the exact and precise definition of what is strong and what is weak. The strong thrive and survive, and the weak are ruled by the strong, are at the their mercy, and usually perish before their natural time.

Quote: As I understand TSB (and I may be interpreting it incorrectly), the homeless would be considered weak, and we should just leave them to die. Is this correct? Obviously, being a person who is capable of objective and logical thought, I can say that many homeless are where they are due to pure laziness. But that may not always be the case. Is it possible that a powerful CEO could one day be homeless, due to whatever circumstances? Absolutely. I've always had a soft spot for the homeless, I'm not sure why. It pains me to think that there are people who have no roof over their head. Yet I am wary of the portion of the homeless who are nothing more than leeches.

Why is it any concern to the Satanist, whether or not, drug-users, drunkards, and the mentally ill have a roof over there head? Is their not shelters for these people?

Quote: Recently, I was in a gourmet popcorn store in the city, and an apparently homeless guy walked in and asked if I could buy him some popcorn. Sure, why not? I won't give them money ever, but my policy is, once in a while I'll buy them food. So I buy this guy a bag of popcorn, and he walks off, WITHOUT EVEN A THANKS. Mother-fucker!! And I'm sure many of you are reading this, chuckling and thinking "I told you so." You're right. I extended myself to this guy, and he was a fucking ingrate. If I wasn't concerned with him physically harming me in a dark alley, I would've planted a big fat footprint on his ass and told him to go to hell. So, do you ignore the homeless who ask for money or food? Is it within the Satanist's beliefs to do so?

Judging from your experiences, what do you think?

Quote:What if it's winter out, and you see a homeless woman and child on the steps of a building, freezing their asses off. Then what?

What could you possibly do for them?

Now regarding the general nature of compassion, I see no problem helping out the deserving every so often, however my code is the following;

Much of what I have to say has already been stated, so I will sum up my ideas with a couple of short sentences here.

On Magic: Rituals are tools, they do not conflict with science. The two are not mutually exclusive. Ritual is simply using belief to elicit the desired emotion and effect from yourself, so that your will may be done, whatever it might be at that time.

On homeless people: Responsibility to the responsible. Linguascelesta's situation is a prefect example of how willpower and action can get you where you want to go. Doing so, however, is not always easy. Weigh the options. Which seems the most useful? Which seems least? Which one has the best balance in terms of usefulness over those results that hinder you? Decide, then act.

Quote:If the hierarchy were merely some kind of mystical clique, then I would agree with you- however, I believe that NOT to be the case. Nor did any invisible god/friend put them there by divine right to rule. They did not get there by large charitable contributions. They got there by living ,by studying, by accomplishing.

I don't doubt their accomplishments, I just don't defer to someone simply because they are accomplished. I respect accomplishment infinitely more than empty title, but even so, for me, someone being "right" is determined on an point-by-point basis. In my career, I work with some of the best and the brightest. However, if they make a point I don't agree with, after careful reconsideration if I still disagree their title won't cause their argument to have any further weight. I lose a measure of respect if they try to use their title to suppress dissent without even hearing it, or to enforce their will to flaunt their power even if their decision is to the detriment of accomplishing the shared goal of they and their subordinates. I accuse nobody here of doing that, I am just wary of it generally being a trait of heirarchal organization.

Quote:

Even more so, when the Magisters such Nemo and Svengali fine tune what has been said by all-or offer direction to where a clue of an answer might be found.

They are intelligent and well-spoken (well-written, I suppose), and I find their postings interesting (though taht doesn't mean I'm going to agree with them on every or perhaps even most things).

Quote:(and I do find myself not in full agreement with some of the writings of CoS leadership).

I am sure that you saw this coming. I admit being curious about this statement.Which ones?

Having baited my own trap, I am now obligated to step into it. Let me preface it by saying that I find that all the CoS leaders who have written on the CoS website have said at least some things I agree with, so I am not targeting any particular person at all.

I will limit myself to a couple statements, both on the official CoS website.

Perhaps the 5th point of Pentagonal revisionism I don't necessarily disagree with, but require clarification before deciding. It reads at first like a call to unrealistic isolationism. The use of the word polyglot seems to me to be an attack on multiculture (rather than a perhaps more deserving attack on Multiculturalism). What's wrong with different languages? Learning about how different languages afford different kinds of expressive capability is interesting. The multiculture has brought me sushi, burritos, curry, kung-fu movies, taiko drumming, and an array of other sensual delights I'm not willing to surrender for the abstract ideal of isolationism, which doesn't work anyway. No matter how isolated you are, someone will find you and bother you, so it is best to be prepared for that. However, if all it means is that people should be able to self-affiliate with others they find interesting, that's fine. I just think that totally withdrawing from the larger world and avoiding everyone who is not like-minded is unrealistic. The statement of this principle in "Satanism: The Feared Religion" is more compellingly phrased, for me, in terms of pleasuredomes and theme parks. I find that presentation of the idea more realistic.

Quote:While there are provable biological differences between the races and statistically demonstrable performance levels in various activities, it is quite irrational to think that someone can be elite or not simply because of the color of their skin. Even if one comes from promising genetic stock, and by that we mean from ancestors who have proven their abilities to be superior in performance, this does not guarantee an individual's advancement.

I fully agree with the sentiment that genetic stock does not guarantee advancement. However, whether one's ancestors are proven to have superior performance abilities depends on ones metric. If someone values physical prowess over intellectualism, they may claim one group of genetic ancestors superior to another. Even in the intellectual realms, if one's value system prefers, say, edifice building to hunting ability, or shipbuilding to herbalism, there will be a different selection of which ancestors are more promising. There appears to be an implication (perhaps I am reading it "incorrectly") that the measure of superiority of genetic inheritance is objective, and that so is the Satanic assessment of Elite accomplishment. I think assessment of someones worth as a fellow Elite very much reflects one's internal value system and not an objective measure of universal performance. Just because I prefer European or Asian aesthetics and sciences, and consider people Elite based on their abilities in applying them, does not make them objectively superior. A wide variety of abilities and accomplishments, some of which I personally would find uninteresting, are possible. And, there are plenty of Western achievements I find dubious, which in some academic circles rampantly displace other ideas simply because they are Western. Here's one example: Christianity.

I'm fairly certain there are more things I could quibble with, as I'm pretty certain about my own ideals and ethics and have found universal agreement on them with nobody (so far). But honestly, I'm starting to get tired of being on the Internet right now, so I hope those will suffice to satisfy your curiosity about at least the kinds of statements I don't necessarily agree with.

Forgive me if I don't reply to everyone at once, it's the 4th and we've got activities to indulge in.

Bill_M:You're half-right about your assessment about my feelings of ritual. I guess I would feel a bit silly. But you're wrong about my concept of aesthetics, and I do know how to behave at a wedding, funeral, etc. I'm not as closed off to the supernatural as you'd think. And no, I don't analyze movies as you suggest. I simply watch and enjoy. Sometimes I take it a bit further. Watching the movie "Suspect Zero" actually made me buy a couple books on astral projection. Is that a shocker? So, I suppose it has to do with the fact that I'm partaking in a religious ritual. I am *not* a religious person and never have been. This is why I can fully explore things like astral projection, but not rites of magic: because there is no religion attached to astral projection. But hey, I didn't choose Satanism, it chose me. Its philosophies match who I am very well. So whether I delve into ritual at some point or not, I still consider myself a Satanist.

As far as strong vs. weak, my point is that there's always a bigger shark out there. Show me two people, side by side, one who is a total loser and slacker who just leeches off everyone, and the other who has a job at a store and is self-reliant. So guy #2 is "stronger" than guy #1. Now, I'll put next to *him* a person who used to be poor and worked hard to pay for his own education, built himself from nothing, and now makes six figures. Now who's strong? The new guy in this equation can look at guy #2 and call him weak because he's working at a store when his true dream job is working for himself as a freelance architect, and he's making no efforts to make that dream come true. See my point? Strong/weak is relative.

I think weles and I are on the same page right now. I recognize the tenets of Satanism in myself, but I'm a bit apprehensive about the ritual side of things, until I actually see it work for me. Not sure how much of that weles agrees with, but that's how I feel. And to be honest, I suppose I'm not open-minded enough to just jump right in. For this kind of thing, I have to approach it slowly. Nemo knows what I'm talking about.

Ares:I think using the lion is not a good analogy. Certain animals are born with instincts to prey on certain types of animals. Humans are born with instincts of self-preservation, and pleasure-seeking. Humans are very much a product of their environments. Given two babies of equal mental and physical qualities, drop one into a crime-ridden ghetto, and drop the other into a highly educated, well-to-do area, and check up on them in 20 years. Do you think that strength and drive is innate? If so, do you think the baby who is raised in the ghetto will have the ability to reject the values of his fellow citizens and rise above it to make his life into something better? Just food for thought.

As far as what I've learned from the popcorn parasite, yes. I sure did learn a valuable lesson there. I can admit my faults. I'm too idealistic. To a fault. It's obviously something I need to work on.

One more question on ritual. Let's say someone has wronged me in a big enough way that is beyond me just shrugging it off. Rather than perform a ritual, isn't it more productive (and possibly more Satanic) to plot a way to really fuck with this person? Wouldn't it be better to go pour chemicals all over their car to destroy the paint, than to perform a ritual, for example? To me, that's true revenge. Performing a destruction ritual against someone who's wronged me just seems more reactive than proactive.

Quote:Wouldn't it be better to go pour chemicals all over their car to destroy the paint, than to perform a ritual, for example?

Of course, that would be vandalism, which is illegal, so no, it really wouldn't. Remember to weigh the pros and cons to each possible course of action.

Good point, Valek. This is what many do not understand for some reason. The ritual's purpose is to vent your anger towards that person so you no longer are concerned with them. Commiting illegal acts will not help you, but will put your own life at stake, and that is quite counter-productive.

Quote:Ares:I think using the lion is not a good analogy. Certain animals are born with instincts to prey on certain types of animals. Humans are born with instincts of self-preservation, and pleasure-seeking. Humans are very much a product of their environments. Given two babies of equal mental and physical qualities, drop one into a crime-ridden ghetto, and drop the other into a highly educated, well-to-do area, and check up on them in 20 years. Do you think that strength and drive is innate? If so, do you think the baby who is raised in the ghetto will have the ability to reject the values of his fellow citizens and rise above it to make his life into something better? Just food for thought.

That is not a good example, because that only reflects the concrete, and artificial cocoon that humanity has built around itself to shield us from nature. However if human class conditions out of the picture and raised them in the wild, you would get very different results which would reflect the true instincts of the subjects.

For a civilized society to exist, humans had to give up natural instincts to maintain it, so thus the bulk of our natural instincts have been suppressed.

Quote:One more question on ritual. Let's say someone has wronged me in a big enough way that is beyond me just shrugging it off. Rather than perform a ritual, isn't it more productive (and possibly more Satanic) to plot a way to really fuck with this person?

Doing a destruction ritual, would allow you to destroy any emotional or psychological power the person has over you, thus giving you perspective.

Quote: Wouldn't it be better to go pour chemicals all over their car to destroy the paint, than to perform a ritual, for example? To me, that's true revenge. Performing a destruction ritual against someone who's wronged me just seems more reactive than proactive.

Ruining someone’s means of transportation, breaking laws, and risking possible fines, or jail time, seems more constructive, than severing any if all feelings regarding the incident and moving forward?

Okay, let me put it another way. If I had a way to physically get revenge with absolutely no chance of consequences on my side, why wouldn't I do it? Let's say some asshole outside a bar is giving me a hard time and being a real ass, insulting my friends and family, and as he walks off, he drops his wallet. I wait a moment. He's long gone, no one's around. I know the Satanic rule about not taking something that doesn't belong to you unless the owner begs you to. Does this rule apply for people who deserve revenge to be taken upon them? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I'd steal his wallet. I'd probably just leave it there, that's damage enough to this asshole. Someone else will steal it probably, and either way, he's out of a wallet. Maybe I'd give it a nudge with my foot so it fell into the gutter.

I know this is corny, but just now, the image of that final scene in Batman Begins popped into my head, where Batman says: "I won't kill you...but I don't have to save you."

Quote:Ruining someone’s means of transportation, breaking laws, and risking possible fines, or jail time, seems more constructive, than severing any if all feelings regarding the incident and moving forward?

Severing any feelings and moving forward? What happened to the Satanic concept of revenge?

>>You're half-right about your assessment about >>my feelings of ritual. I guess I would feel a bit >>silly.

Which in turn, seems quite silly to me. But moving on...

>>But you're wrong about my concept of aesthetics, >>and I do know how to behave at a wedding, funeral,>>etc.

Like I said, in my experience most of the "I can't understand this second half of The Satanic Bible" types share those traits. It sounds like you can appreciate the beauty and strength of ritualistic trappings. So, what's the issue?

>>And no, I don't analyze movies as you suggest. I >>simply watch and enjoy.

If you can suspend objective judgement in front of 90 minutes of video (yet still having "this is only a movie" in the back of your mind, no matter how intesne the movie gets), what makes you so sure you couldn't do it for 10 minutes in front of a Sigil of Baphomet and a couple of candles?

>>So, I suppose it has to do with the fact that I'm >>partaking in a religious ritual. I am *not* a religious >>person and never have been. This is why I can fully >>explore things like astral projection, but not rites of >>magic: because there is no religion attached to astral >>projection. But hey, I didn't choose Satanism, it chose >>me. Its philosophies match who I am very well.

Satanism IS a religion, whether you like it or not. You seem suspiciously afraid of being considered a "religious person". I see no problem with adhering to a religion whose dogma reflects what one truly feels inside. But even if you choose to view Satanism as the 7-Up of religions ("The UN-religion!"), which I wouldn't say is invalid, it begs the question as to why you'd have such a big problem with Satanic ritual. To quote The Satanic Bible, "If he accepts himself, but recognizes that ritual and ceremony are the important devices that his invented religions have utilized to sustain his faith in a lie, then it is the SAME FORM OF RITUAL that will sustain his faith in the truth--the primitive pageantry that will give his awareness of his own majestic being added substance."

>>So whether I delve into ritual at some point or not, >>I still consider myself a Satanist.

You're not obligated to formally ritualize. However, I find that those who seem so defensive about not ritualizing are largely those who don't understand how it fits in, or still have irrational feelings of self-consciousness and thus can't "let go" of themselves in a controlled environment, and/or don't have the self-discipline or creativity to pull it off. Again, that's been my experience with many (read: not all but quite a lot) of the people who say they loved the Book of Lucifer, but not much else out of The Satanic Bible.

For sure. Landing myself fines or jail time goes against self-preservation, I agree. But if I can take some measure of revenge (physical, corporeal; not ritual) that won't cost me anything, I'll do it. And if I feel it's worth my time and energy, which in most cases, it's not.

Personally I think it would be more fun to watch someone be undone by their own "misfortune" and instead of knowing why this is happening, watching them pleading for help from their own god while they sink into nothingness.

>>Another is my lack of interest in accepting the notion >>that someone is my better based on organizational title

I don't view COS members with higher titles as being immediately better than me. I see the titles for what they are: recognition of the work that the Satanists has done. We may all identify ourselves as Satanists, but the bottom line is some members are better at representing the organization better than others, and some clearly have more accomplishements that relate to the principles of Satanism.

I have met some Satanists who are not members yet certainly have a thorough understanding of Satanism. I've also run into members, even in the priesthood, that I flat-out could not stand, and would loathe being in the same room with. Though even in these latter cases, I could look at what they've done and have no doubt they were Satanists, let alone worthy of the titles they were given. But we're not expected to all get along. That's an inevitble by-product of having an organization that champions individualism.

>>(and I do find myself not in full agreement with >>some of the writings of CoS leadership).

Again, neither do I. Hell, there are even essays of Dr. LaVey's that I disagree with. However, The Satanic Bible is another story. I have no disagreements with that. When two Satanists diagree on something, it's almost always in the application of Satanism, not Satanism itself. You'll find, for example, some Satanists who like using multi-channel surround sound and see great benefits of it for total environments, and others who are audiophile purists and hate any audio technology beyond vinyl. Neither is necessarily less of a Satanist than the other.

I'm not really sure how I can suspend disbelief for a movie, but not ritualize, Bill. Good question. I'll have to ponder on this a while and try to figure out what my hang-up is. I guess it just boils down to the fact that I don't believe in the stuff. I understand that the ritual aspect is psychodrama as many people have said, and nobody expects an actual sick person to be healed due to a ritual being performed. In the end, it's up to me to decide how deep into the rabbit hole I want to go.

As always, thanks for everyone's valuable feedback, and for the stimulating discussion.

Quote: Another is my lack of interest in accepting the notion that someone is my better based on organizational title (I balk at this in the work I do in order to pay for my otherwise nice life, why would I take on more heirarchy socially?). I do not consider anyone to be my better, and do not accept what someone says to be true simply based on their role as a formal authority figure (and I do find myself not in full agreement with some of the writings of CoS leadership).

You are assuming titles have no basis in merit.

By that logic, why would you seek the consultation of an MD, or a Lawyer, or Professor? Since you somehow automatically are their equal.

Being a Magister doesn't mean much if something goes wrong with my car that I can't fix, unless the person I go to happened to be made a Magister in recognition of his success as a mechanic.

CoS titles are given in recognition of a) the individual's grasp of Satanism, and b) application of the same in their chosen field of endeavor. Quality control is a good thing. That "everyone is the equal" nonsense turns the world into shit.

Don't buy into egalitarian fallacies.

_________________________Live and Let Die."If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant."Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito MussoliniMY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

Quote: I lose a measure of respect if they try to use their title to suppress dissent without even hearing it, or to enforce their will to flaunt their power even if their decision is to the detriment of accomplishing the shared goal of they and their subordinates. I accuse nobody here of doing that, I am just wary of it generally being a trait of heirarchal organization.

Wariness is a good trait. I have no arguement with questioning authority under the right circumstances. But I also have experiance with grand titles(elsewhere) who have the educational capacity of a flea, the patience of a Tazmanian Devil and believe that their bank account or cronism buys them astute wisdom of the ages. That has not been evidenced here- my experiance has been take it or leave it what you see is what you get among all that I have encountered under this banner over the years. But, I feel, that it IS your loss if you donot advantage yourself of some of the knowledge and experiances that so many offer here freely.It is also your choice. One that I respect- for it is your life.Enjoy the journey-Thank you for responding to my curiosity. It is sated for the moment.

Quote:While there are provable biological differences between the races and statistically demonstrable performance levels in various activities, it is quite irrational to think that someone can be elite or not simply because of the color of their skin. Even if one comes from promising genetic stock, and by that we mean from ancestors who have proven their abilities to be superior in performance, this does not guarantee an individual's advancement.

I fully agree with the sentiment that genetic stock does not guarantee advancement. However, whether one's ancestors are proven to have superior performance abilities depends on ones metric. If someone values physical prowess over intellectualism, they may claim one group of genetic ancestors superior to another. Even in the intellectual realms, if one's value system prefers, say, edifice building to hunting ability, or shipbuilding to herbalism, there will be a different selection of which ancestors are more promising. There appears to be an implication (perhaps I am reading it "incorrectly") that the measure of superiority of genetic inheritance is objective, and that so is the Satanic assessment of Elite accomplishment. I think assessment of someones worth as a fellow Elite very much reflects one's internal value system and not an objective measure of universal performance. Just because I prefer European or Asian aesthetics and sciences, and consider people Elite based on their abilities in applying them, does not make them objectively superior. A wide variety of abilities and accomplishments, some of which I personally would find uninteresting, are possible. And, there are plenty of Western achievements I find dubious, which in some academic circles rampantly displace other ideas simply because they are Western. Here's one example: Christianity.

You are reading it incorrectly. The quoted passage was talking about general probability. Stratification is a natural process.

When considering the role of Christianity in history, you have to consider who is was bad for, who it was good for, and why.

_________________________Live and Let Die."If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant."Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito MussoliniMY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

>>(and I do find myself not in full agreement with >>some of the writings of CoS leadership).

Again, neither do I. Hell, there are even essays of Dr. LaVey's that I disagree with. However, The Satanic Bible is another story. I have no disagreements with that. When two Satanists diagree on something, it's almost always in the application of Satanism, not Satanism itself. You'll find, for example, some Satanists who like using multi-channel surround sound and see great benefits of it for total environments, and others who are audiophile purists and hate any audio technology beyond vinyl. Neither is necessarily less of a Satanist than the other.

Another good point, Bill_M. Satanists, as individuals, do not agree on everything. If we did we wouldn't be much of individuals! We simply share a common understanding of our religion set forth in The Satanic Bible which explains what Satanism is.

For the most part, I would say, do not give them money, unless you've observed them and can mostly tell that they are legit, or unless they are providing a service of some kind--music, entertainment, education. "Naiively" take them at their word, and give them food, give them dog food, yada yada, if you're going to give them anything.

(My only sometimes-exception to the rule is when they ask for bus fare. I'm so enthusiastic to maybe, hopefully get rid of them--if only for the day--that I'm more than willing to pony up a nickel or two .)

I also do not give ANYTHING, ever, to anyone whose sign reads "God Bless" or has any reference to religion, Jeebus, or a higher power. If that higher power is so fantastic, let THEM feed and shelter you, says I.

_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

Why is it any concern to the Satanist, whether or not, drug-users, drunkards, and the mentally ill have a roof over there head? Is their not shelters for these people?

You asked, so I'll give a Satanic third-side answer.

It's not because THEY deserve good treatment, it's because we do.

Drunkards, druggies, poor people, and bums ruin the scenery, chew away at the infastructure, raise the crime rate, and lower the property values.

Certainly, I don't want hardcore schizophrenics running around as they please.

So, one potential solution (though I never said it was foolproof) is to raise their quality of life so that they don't continue to piss on society.

Of course, part of the problem there is that while some people will take a hand-up and use it well, others are so incompetent that they will propel themselves back into the gutter, and end up wasting tax dollars, charity, and hard work in the process, again and again.

_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

A friend of mine once went to one of those hand-out-free-clothes-at-the-soup-kitchen-on-xmas type things. As he was giving out the stuff, one of the whinos said he wanted to have his coat. My friend of course refused, saying it was his. The whino proceeded to throw a hissy-fit, the ungrateful fuck. That is one reason you will never catch me at a hand-out-free-clothes-at -the-soup-kitchen-on-xmas type thing.

When it comes to soup kitches, apparently a lot of the work includes more than actually handing out the food to the homeless. I've read stories of some people volunteering with this task in mind, and are pissed when it turns out that they've been assigned to move crates around in the back room or some other job where they don't actually see the homeless people. Talk about a Good Guy Badge!

>>Zephirus >>Banned

Those debating-for-the-sake-of-debating types do get on my nerves. I just hope they don't go all leave with the false sense of satisfaction that somehow they've "stumped" us, when they haven't.

In most if all cases, if one must ask 'am I to ___ to be a Satanist' or 'I agree with Satanic philosophy except _____', the answer is inevitable.You are barking up the wrong tree. Satanists know they are Satanists.

_________________________ "One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike and yet it is the most precious thing we have." - Albert Einstein
--------------------

Quote:You are reading it incorrectly. The quoted passage was talking about general probability. Stratification is a natural process.

My point was that the general probability of success is relative to the metric. By picking a particular metric, one can get different clustering of ability in their results. There is ample evidence for this going all the way back to the work of Franz Boas, at least. If the statement I quoted previously is meant to be in agreement with that idea, I overlooked that element. I will reread the whole article from which it was quoted.

Quote:When considering the role of Christianity in history, you have to consider who is was bad for, who it was good for, and why.

I understand quite a bit aboute the role of Christianity in history. I was using Christianity rather as an example of a dubious Western achievement which is promoted by academics regardless of its merits relative to other current thinking. It served its purpose for Westerners, as may have non-Western ideas which people find dubious replacements for Western ones in education, but now both may be of dubious value academically. For me, living right now, I don't care if an idea or aesthetic came from "the West" or not as a criteria for dubiousness, only whether or not it is interesting and/or useful to me.

I'm assuming that peoples' reactions to titles often confer upon them more merit than they may actually warrant, and that many titled officials encourage this response. This is based on my life experiences, though it is a bias I'm open to having proved not to be relevant to CoS.

Quote:By that logic, why would you seek the consultation of an MD, or a Lawyer, or Professor? Since you somehow automatically are their equal.

Relative equal and absolute equal are different issues. An MD, Lawyer, or other professionaly may be my relative superiour in their field, and yes I would seek their consultation. But, what they then do with that consultation is relevant. When a professional offers me their advice or prescription, I do my own research about what they have said. By doing so, I have severed my relations with incompetent professionals and sought-out new relations with better ones. Merely their title was not enough to suggest I should just obey their advice and not take an active role in solving the issue for which I had consulted them. Even with a title, my respect is earned through interaction.

There are physicians, lawyers, etc. I have met (having worked on the technical staff of both a hospital and a law firm) whom I would consider to be my inferior, despite their reified title, as they were merely mediocre at their chosen profession and abysmal in everything else I knew about them. Other physicians and lawyers I worked with excelled in their fields, and were otherwise interesting. In them I recognized elite qualities. I excel in my field, and many find me otherwise interesting as well. At these workplaces, I was able to work as a peer with the other professionals. They recognized my areas of expertise, and I theirs. As far as I am concerned, titular achievement is neither a necessary nor sufficient condition for true merit.

A problem I have seen in other organizations, even ones of freethinkers and individualists, is an automatic deference to the titled leadership on all matters. I haven't been on these boards long enough to know the degree to which that happens here, but I am wary of it because many leaders encourage it.

Quote:CoS titles are given in recognition of a) the individual's grasp of Satanism, and b) application of the same in their chosen field of endeavor. Quality control is a good thing. That "everyone is the equal" nonsense turns the world into shit.

On the issue of Satanism theory and practice, someone with a title obviously has more experience. I'm willing to conceed their expertise on the matter and give their ideas respect and commensruate consideration, but I for one will not bow before anyone or otherwise accept the idea they are absolute rathter than relative betters.

Quote:Don't buy into egalitarian fallacies.

Egalitarian fundamentalism says everyone is absolutely equal. Though I do think anyone I encounter deserves an unprejudiced chance to prove their merit, I don't think everyone is ultimately equal. I do think that nobody is absolutely superior to *me*.

Quote:. But, I feel, that it IS your loss if you donot advantage yourself of some of the knowledge and experiances that so many offer here freely.

I am quite happy to hear the words of knowledge and experience on any topic that interests me, and respect those who offer it. I am wary of titles, and don't easily give alliegiance even to titled masters, but I'm not an ingrate when someone with experience is willing to offer their perspective.

My own observation of and experience with interactions here, modulo accounting as best I can for what Bill M has said about this board not being isomorphic with CoS as an organization. That combined with ongoing reading of all the public documents from CoS possible, to determine what titled officials seem to think their title confers upon them based on whatever I can learn of their actions as a nonmember (mostly through their writings).

I would say, because the perceptions of good and bad are different varying from each individual, I think that if it makes you sleep better at night and feel good and happy about yourself, You're in the green.

As far as magic and ritual go, it is not necessary to your existance. After all, there are many people who get by day in, day out, making good money who don't need magic. In my opinion, the act of ritual itself is a waste of energy. Obviously many other magic practicing religions may create effects, but within the science of it all, as it is something to affect your will in order to enact a change within yourself, so why is a certain breed of magic better than the other? Why not simply skip the ritual and enact the change with simply your will, if it is to be an internal change, and if it is to deal with something like money or love, just do what you feel is right (In your own personal sense, of course.).

_________________________
"There is a beast in man that should be exercised, not exorcised." ~ Anton Szandor LaVey

How would it be a waste of energy if that energy is put into something you desire to take place? If that desire manifests into reality, I would not consider that a waste in the least. Ritual and magic are a very important part of Satanism. As LaVey himself said, "Humanism is not a religion, without ritual and dogma". There is a big distinction between Satanism and humanism. It is magic.

Quote:Even if we disregard the whole concept of Greater Magic, just for the sake of the argument here, it's clear that humans have always made use of ritualized expression, whether for religious or secular means. There is no "scientific" reason why we should watch a descending sphere on January 31st, shoot 21 guns into the air at certain events, or use our breath to extinguish flaming sticks on the anniversary of our date of birth. But there are reasons why we humans do these things, and it's not just for "tradition". Likewise, as the Satanic Bible mentions, Satanism recognizes both the science of psychology and the benefits of emotionalizing through ritual and dogma.

FANTASTIC!! I love the analogies you've given here, very well put! HS!

_________________________"Good and Evil liveth only in men's minds,"Ragnar Redbeard

Quote:I'm just not into that stuff, and never will be under any cirumstances. I am a man of science, period. If this disqualifies me as a Satanist, so be it

I think the "never under any circumstances" part disqualifies you as a man of science, not as a satanist.

_________________________
"The truth is, as every one knows, that the great artists of the world are never Puritans, and seldom even ordinarily respectable. No virtuous man- that is, virtuous in the Y.M.C.A. sense- has ever painted a picture worth looking at, or written a symphony worth hearing, or a book worth reading, and it is highly improbable that the thing has ever been done by a virtuous woman."
..........H.L. Mencken
" mmmmmm... sacreligious" - Homer J. Simson

This is an oversimplification, and just my take on things...but, for me, magic is the poetry of life. Yes, many of us are very intelligent.; but, there will always be those things that can't be reduced to a scientific formula. That is how I see the force in the universe that is magic.

>>I think that if it makes you sleep better at night and>>feel good and happy about yourself, You're in the green.

You're responding to somebody whose name is in the black. They're gone. So who are you responding to?

>>In my opinion, the act of ritual itself is a waste of >>energy.

So you don't comprehend, at the very least, the entire second half of The Satanic Bible?

>>so why is a certain breed of magic better than >>the other?

"If the shortest distance between two points is a straight line, then established occultists would do well as maze-makers." Anton LaVey, on the other hand, took an Occam's razor to the occult world (as one writer put it), throwing out the scavenger-hunt and hypocritcal aspects to get right down to what people truly mean by "magic", and how to most directly utilize that.

I see on your website that you drew a picture of Kirk Hammet. Why do that, when you could just tear out a photo from a magazine or CD bootlet? As long as we're throwing out ritualized expression, why not art too? After all, putting paint on a canvas is just a waste of time. Artists should be able to go express their will through direct means instead, right?

It is an interesting point of view you may have, but could I say as I have (and Still am) in contact with an inmate in prison who is a keen Wiccan, the theory and enjoyment which magick and ritual (whether it exists or not) gives my friend something to hold on to as he is locked up 23 hours a day and has very little to sustain him but his belief in Meditation and the hope of eventual release.

I have helped the best I can, but it is DIFFICULT maintaining your belief (in a religion)when others are against you and ridicule you at every turn. As a determined Satanist, whilst in prison my belief in Satanism was ridiculed by certain prison officers who only wanted to hear about the sexual orgies??!!..

Get a grip. If he knew that your heart beats 3 (three) times as fast when having sex over a period of time, he woould'nt be so keen on sex as it would really nacker him somewhat!!

My point lays in paradigm. I feel it would be far easier to design your own kind of magic, rather than adopt somebody elses. It's in that paradigm based on old methods may actually be more useless now, rather than evolving methods and creating new ones to better adapt for changing times.

Christianity hasn't changed in two-thousand years, and look at how it's doing. I would rather not see magic become as stagnated as the rolling paper pages of the bible.

_________________________
"There is a beast in man that should be exercised, not exorcised." ~ Anton Szandor LaVey

Quote:Why not simply skip the ritual and enact the change with simply your will, if it is to be an internal change, and if it is to deal with something like money or love, just do what you feel is right (In your own personal sense, of course.).

Awhile ago, while working at a hotel, a man came in telling me that his wallet and credit cards and cash had been stolen from him at a hotel in a town over 100 miles away. He told me that he had hitchhiked and walked all the way to this town, and although his job he was heading to was in Colorado, he only needed a place to sleep for awhile and a shower. I found numbers to Salvation Army, a homeless shelter, and a few other places that helped people in need. Including the police, who told me that there were no places in town that could help him. After watching this man walk all over town and looking for a place to stay or some organization that would help him, I decided that I wasnt risking my job too much by giving him a room and just not writing it in the books. I felt better helping him, and he got a job locally with a carnival the next day to save up some money to go to Colorado. I think if you receive any kind of gratification from helping someone else, that's all that should matter. As far as magic, I agree with you. I may not be a woman of science, but I have never felt comfortable with magic in any way. Magic, spells, prayer and other "trappings" of other religions have always made me turn away from those paths. I agree with you that the philosophy is what I focus on the most. I know that magic and the "intellectual decompression chamber" as LaVey stated, is vital for some people. I am just not one of those people. I don't think you have to fall into any "pattern" or "mold" to be a Satanist, I think that understanding and living the philosophy should be enough. That magic, Lesser or Greater, should be a requirement, is not how I understood it. Thank you for your post, it was very informative and I appreciate that others may feel the same as I.

Ok, now I feel a bit silly, I must have missed that part about what your name being in black means. I didn't realize that poster had been banned. I still liked the post though, and my reply still stands. Sorry..