**please read the instructions and information before you make your vote**

You guys should know the drill by now

But here are a few changes:

-I will stop accepting votes for this poll the following day of the OP date @ 11:59pm

-If you vote, PLEASE in turn post in thread 1) Who you voted for 2) Who you would like to be added to the next poll

-Thread is open to discussion about anything pertaining to the rankings. You may respectfully disagree with someone's selection, but please do not "bash" or criticize someone for making a selection. I would like each selection to be made purely off of opinion, no pressure

-If you are a fan of another team just dropping by, feel free to submit a vote or join the discussion. Outside perspective is always welcome

-I will keep this going until we 1) Complete a 30 man roster 2) or interest drops off to the point where the process loses its function, in which cases the amount will be rounded off. At the end i would like to get this stickied as the official 2013 Seahawk player rankings

Interesting. Mebane appears to be living off of his name and "underrated" label at this point. Did he have a good season? Sure, but for a guy that's not getting to the passer, you'd hope he'd have more of an impact on the running game down the stretch where we were the worst team in the NFL.

Not saying Mebane is a bad player, but let's not pretend he's without blame.

I think Chris Clemons is easily better at what he does. Not only is he our main source of pass rush (and a consistent one at that with 3 straight seasons of 11+ sacks) but he's also one of the most underrated edge run defenders in the league due to the stigma that he's a pass rush specialist.

Other players that I could easily make an argument for being above Mebane include (in no order) Bobby Wagner, Michael Bennett, Antoine Winfield, and Kam Chancellor. Kam might be the toughest to argue for, but I think the other 3 guys are pretty cut and dry.

Wagner showed to be one of the best, versatile young LBs in the league and put up a DROY type campaign in 2012.

Bennett and Winfield appear to be getting the Harvin treatment. Since we haven't seen these guys play as much as our own players or playing for our own team, we underrate them for whatever reason. I don't see a single reason for Mebane being ranked higher than Bennett or Winfield. Bennett was among the league leaders in Stuffs the past two seasons, something Mebane cannot say despite playing on the interior. Not only is Bennett one of the best run defending DEs, but he also brings a tenacious pass rush and can play both DE and UT. Winfield had some of the best metrics in the league last season, albeit at the Nickel position, but with that position's growing importance I don't see why we should devalue it. Winfield is definitely better at what he does than Mebane is at what he does.

Maybe I'm putting too much stock into how Mebane looked at the back half of 2012, but I don't think he's a top 10 player on this team anymore. And I think that speaks more about the talent on this team than Mebane regressing._________________

DudeWhat?? wrote:

If I am a starting QB and my back up is Kellen Clemens..i would only have one question...."Turn up for what?"

I just remember how bad we are everytime mebane isn't playing. He does his job well and is extremely reliable.

Winfield above him at this point in his career is kind of a joke IMO. Arguably bennett as well. We'll see, but Mebane has proven it time again with this team and there are far more high points than lows when it comes to him. If i had to choose someone out of those 3 to stay on this roster, with the others leaving, it's mebane 9/10 times...with the 10th being bennett.

Clemons would have been my choice, but that injury scares me. It's the second of his career and he's about to turn 32 this season. Modern medicine has come a long way, but your age upon being inflicted with a ligament injury plays a huge part._________________

I'm not even looking at Clemons injury. I can only assess him from what I've seen on the field and what I know definitively. I have no idea how he'll recover and come back from the injury, so I don't see a point in trying to quantify it. He deserves to be higher on this list just like he deserved to be higher than Mebane on our Top 100 players list. Injuries don't change a thing about that.

I'm ready to catch flak for talking bad about Mebane. He's the homegrown guy that's always been great at what he does, doesn't talk out of line, and has led his unit since he's been here. I still think he's underrated by the general public, but I also think he's overrated (now) by the Seattle fanbase. I could definitely see a case for him being this high after the 2009 or 2011 season's (if memory serves me) but I don't see the reason now. You say we've been bad every time he's not on the field. When was the last time he wasn't on the field? I don't think he's missed a game since 2010, so I don't see why that's a point of importance when we're evaluating these guys in 2013.

Why is Winfield a joke? Please read this and tell me that Winfield being above Mebane is a joke. The real joke is that we're underrating players that we've never seen play for our team. In 2012, Winfield was THE BEST nickel defender in the entire league. He's a pitbull in the slot that stops the run like a linebacker.

Quote:

Against the run Winfield’s grade was almost twice as good as any other corner. On the season he made 44 stops (tackles that constitute an offensive failure), which was a dozen more than the next best player. Of those stops, 26 were in the run game, logging one on 7.3% of his run snaps, again the top mark by a corner by some distance and one that is actually closer to the norm for linebackers than it is among corners.

Michael Bennett led all 4-3 DEs in stuffs, while also nearing double digit sacks. You're telling me that's not a better showing than Mebane? Bobby Wagner led THE ENTIRE NFL in run stoppage % for his position, are you telling me that's not a better showing than Mebane?

I think the only joke is if this forum votes Mebane as the 8th best player on this team._________________

DudeWhat?? wrote:

If I am a starting QB and my back up is Kellen Clemens..i would only have one question...."Turn up for what?"

I'm not even looking at Clemons injury. I can only assess him from what I've seen on the field and what I know definitively. I have no idea how he'll recover and come back from the injury, so I don't see a point in trying to quantify it. He deserves to be higher on this list just like he deserved to be higher than Mebane on our Top 100 players list. Injuries don't change a thing about that.

I'm ready to catch flak for talking bad about Mebane. He's the homegrown guy that's always been great at what he does, doesn't talk out of line, and has led his unit since he's been here. I still think he's underrated by the general public, but I also think he's overrated (now) by the Seattle fanbase. I could definitely see a case for him being this high after the 2009 or 2011 season's (if memory serves me) but I don't see the reason now. You say we've been bad every time he's not on the field. When was the last time he wasn't on the field? I don't think he's missed a game since 2010, so I don't see why that's a point of importance when we're evaluating these guys in 2013.

Why is Winfield a joke? Please read this and tell me that Winfield being above Mebane is a joke. The real joke is that we're underrating players that we've never seen play for our team. In 2012, Winfield was THE BEST nickel defender in the entire league. He's a pitbull in the slot that stops the run like a linebacker.

Quote:

Against the run Winfield’s grade was almost twice as good as any other corner. On the season he made 44 stops (tackles that constitute an offensive failure), which was a dozen more than the next best player. Of those stops, 26 were in the run game, logging one on 7.3% of his run snaps, again the top mark by a corner by some distance and one that is actually closer to the norm for linebackers than it is among corners.

Michael Bennett led all 4-3 DEs in stuffs, while also nearing double digit sacks. You're telling me that's not a better showing than Mebane? Bobby Wagner led THE ENTIRE NFL in run stoppage % for his position, are you telling me that's not a better showing than Mebane?

I think the only joke is if this forum votes Mebane as the 8th best player on this team.

Because part of what weigh's into the importance of this poll for me is team impact and depth-behind (in the event of an injury). Which was both the criteria and the reason for me giving Thomas the nod as our best player.

I don't think Winfield is a joke, i think his placement at #8 or higher would be. What he did last year is all well and good(apologies if it sounds like I'm writing him off, he's actually my favorite new addition), but it wasn't for seattle. Same with Bennett. It takes an adjustment period for players to come in and perform. Only a handful of our best players previous to this year weren't drafted by us (Lynch, Clemons, Rice, and Miller beig the ones still here). Miller and Rice were the only players that have been truly dominant before arriving here and they have had rocky starts (and have recently started coming around) and are still considered overpayed. That's enough for me to be hesitant. We know how good these players are, you're not the only to research their production, but it doesn't account for team impact and position value respectively until I see what they do on the field.

It may not be your method, but it's the way I go about voting this.

We're going to see chancellor and bryant drop because they were injured most of last year as well, especially red. They had a huge drop off being banged up. For me, it's the same with Clemons. The injury being a repeat, severe, and coupled with his age are cause for legit concern. This isn't the top 100. This is ranking our players going into this next season, not just last year_________________

Because part of what weigh's into the importance of this poll for me is team impact and depth-behind (in the event of an injury). Which was both the criteria and the reason for me giving Thomas the nod as our best player.

I don't think Winfield is a joke, i think his placement at #8 or higher would be. What he did last year is all well and good(apologies if it sounds like I'm writing him off, he's actually my favorite new addition), but it wasn't for seattle. Same with Bennett. It takes an adjustment period for players to come in and perform. Only a handful of our best players previous to this year weren't drafted by us (Lynch, Clemons, Rice, and Miller beig the ones still here). Miller and Rice were the only players that have been truly dominant before arriving here and they have had rocky starts (and have recently started coming around) and are still considered overpayed. That's enough for me to be hesitant. We know how good these players are, you're not the only to research their production, but it doesn't account for team impact and position value respectively until I see what they do on the field.

It may not be your method, but it's the way I go about voting this.

We're going to see chancellor and bryant drop because they were injured most of last year as well, especially red. They had a huge drop off being banged up. For me, it's the same with Clemons. The injury being a repeat, severe, and coupled with his age are cause for legit concern. This isn't the top 100. This is ranking our players going into this next season, not just last year

Don't mean to be rude, but I think that's all a load of crap. Maybe I don't understand the purpose of this series, but I thought it was to rate the best players on the team. Not the most valuable, not the guys at the most important positions, not the guys that have shown up for the Seahawks, but the best players. Everything outside of "who's the best player" is a bunch of intangible, subjective measures that don't really solve anything. Hell I could make a case for Golden Tate being the 8th best player on this team based off of those prerequisites.

You're talking about depth. Our depth behind Mebane is a very promising Jesse Williams and an underrated role player in Clinton McDonald. Who's our backup UT after Bennett? Jaye Howard? Jordan Hill (who the team admitted they overdrafted)? And who's the backup Nickel CB? As far as I'm concerned, no one proven and no one that left us comfortable enough to not sign Winfield.

I think it's silly that you can write-off Winfield's season just like that. I don't think you understand what it means to be BY FAR the best at your position at your specific role, and that's just what Winfield was. So far I've offered tangible evidence for why I think these players are better than Mebane, and in return you've given me nothing more than "Mebane has done it for the Seahawks and they haven't".

Red's drop is due to his play on the field (as result of injury). We have something tangible to assess Red's play with. When it comes to Clemons, you have nothing tangible. The way players have been dealing with ligament damage lately, you have no idea how he'll come back. So where does it stop? Where do we rank Clemons? I'm genuinely curious where you think he belongs on this list based off of the subjective manner in which you wish to approach it.

Don't mean to come off close-minded or arrogant, I'm just questioning the overall logistics._________________

DudeWhat?? wrote:

If I am a starting QB and my back up is Kellen Clemens..i would only have one question...."Turn up for what?"

Because part of what weigh's into the importance of this poll for me is team impact and depth-behind (in the event of an injury). Which was both the criteria and the reason for me giving Thomas the nod as our best player.

I don't think Winfield is a joke, i think his placement at #8 or higher would be. What he did last year is all well and good(apologies if it sounds like I'm writing him off, he's actually my favorite new addition), but it wasn't for seattle. Same with Bennett. It takes an adjustment period for players to come in and perform. Only a handful of our best players previous to this year weren't drafted by us (Lynch, Clemons, Rice, and Miller beig the ones still here). Miller and Rice were the only players that have been truly dominant before arriving here and they have had rocky starts (and have recently started coming around) and are still considered overpayed. That's enough for me to be hesitant. We know how good these players are, you're not the only to research their production, but it doesn't account for team impact and position value respectively until I see what they do on the field.

It may not be your method, but it's the way I go about voting this.

We're going to see chancellor and bryant drop because they were injured most of last year as well, especially red. They had a huge drop off being banged up. For me, it's the same with Clemons. The injury being a repeat, severe, and coupled with his age are cause for legit concern. This isn't the top 100. This is ranking our players going into this next season, not just last year

Don't mean to be rude, but I think that's all a load of crap. Maybe I don't understand the purpose of this series, but I thought it was to rate the best players on the team. Not the most valuable, not the guys at the most important positions, not the guys that have shown up for the Seahawks, but the best players. Everything outside of "who's the best player" is a bunch of intangible, subjective measures that don't really solve anything. Hell I could make a case for Golden Tate being the 8th best player on this team based off of those prerequisites.

You're talking about depth. Our depth behind Mebane is a very promising Jesse Williams and an underrated role player in Clinton McDonald. Who's our backup UT after Bennett? Jaye Howard? Jordan Hill (who the team admitted they overdrafted)? And who's the backup Nickel CB? As far as I'm concerned, no one proven and no one that left us comfortable enough to not sign Winfield.

I think it's silly that you can write-off Winfield's season just like that. I don't think you understand what it means to be BY FAR the best at your position at your specific role, and that's just what Winfield was. So far I've offered tangible evidence for why I think these players are better than Mebane, and in return you've given me nothing more than "Mebane has done it for the Seahawks and they haven't".

Red's drop is due to his play on the field (as result of injury). We have something tangible to assess Red's play with. When it comes to Clemons, you have nothing tangible. The way players have been dealing with ligament damage lately, you have no idea how he'll come back. So where does it stop? Where do we rank Clemons? I'm genuinely curious where you think he belongs on this list based off of the subjective manner in which you wish to approach it.

Don't mean to come off close-minded or arrogant, I'm just questioning the overall logistics.

You always bring up tangible evidence, except you always ignore it when it's presented to you.

Quote:

Only a handful of our best players previous to this year weren't drafted by us (Lynch, Clemons, Rice, and Miller beig the ones still here). Miller and Rice were the only players that have been truly dominant before arriving here and they have had rocky starts (and have recently started coming around) and are still considered overpayed.

Only a small amount of our best players have come from other sources than the draft. That is a tangible FACT. Just because that holds less water in SoS' mind doesn't mean it doesn't hold water. I know you don't mean to appear vain in your argument (just as I didn't mean to write off winfield...as I clearly wrote), but you've been unsuccessful in your attempt. It's a flaw in the way you debate, over time. You weigh history and tangible evidence as if it's an end-all, be-all. At the end of the day, however, your predictions are just as off as everyone else's and they come off very inconsistent from year to year.

You'd have a much harder time arguing Tate as the #8 overall player, because his impact, talent and value as a starter are not strong enough. That wouldn't be subjective, that would be ridiculous. And ridiculous is how you seem to classify anything that doesn't follow the blueprint of history. Even though history is made and defied every season

The way i go about making my opinion is subjective more times than not. It takes less time, is somewhat inconsistent and makes me look bad when I'm wrong. The bonus to glorifying the objective, is looking more intelligent in the moment and having a hedge-scheme in the end when your wrong ("I merely based my predictions on history"). I just can't invest that time that some other's do on this site without the benefit of a career or output from it down the road. This is my down-time site, and our views and debating tactics will almost always derive from an opposing spectrum as a result. Just felt i needed to get that out of the way because Objective/Subjective has made many appearances in our discussions as of late.

Anyway, this is an opinion based vote and wouldn't have much purpose if we all agreed. I think this discussion really sparked off of my saying "winfield being higher is a joke", which was probably too severe a phrase for my intention. I apologize. But I disagreed with Antoine Winfield being in the top 10 to such a degree that it was the first thing to come to my mind and I wrote it. We have different reasoning for why we vote players where we do, let's just leave at that._________________

I just feel like there's a lot more validity when someone uses history, facts, stats, and whatever else. I feel that debates such as these should have a foundation of tangible evidence and should be based off of factual statements that hold relevance to the discussion.

Which leads me to this. Is your statement that most of our successful players are via the draft and not outside FA acquisitions factual and tangible? Absolutely, no denying that. But here's the thing, MOST teams' successful players are via the draft and not outside FA acquisitions. In fact, the best teams are built through the draft and sprinkle FA acquisitions to supplement holes on the roster.

Let's look at the Giants. Eli, Nicks, JPP, Tuck, Prince, Wilson, Cruz, and plenty of other guys I'm not mentioning were acquired via the draft process. The Patriots have built around Brady, Solder, Mankins, Vollmer, Ridley, Gronk, Hernandez, Chandler Jones, Wilfork, Hightower, and McCourty just to name a few. Now, they've sprinkled in FA/trade acquisitions over the years like Randy Moss, Wes Welker, and Aqib Talib. Does that make any of those three players less valuable because they weren't drafted by the Pats and most of the Pats good players were drafted? I certainly don't think so.

I can't judge Percy Harvin based off of what he might do here. I can't base Winfield off of what he might do here. I can't base Clemons off of how he might recover. Maybe you can, but I try to eliminate that type of subjectivity from my evaluations because I don't really see a fit for it.

So rather than using a generalization such as "our drafted players are more impactful than our outside acquisitions", let's look at this as Mebane vs Winfield vs Bennett vs Wagner vs Kam. Let's look at the players as individuals, since this list is comprising the best players as individuals. When you do that, I don't really see a case for Mebane being higher than several of the guys listed. And I'm not trying to make this some "my way or the highway" type of dialogue. I was very open to people ranking Unger over Okung, because Unger brings an element to the game that I personally cannot quantify, but I know is there. I was very open to people voting Wilson over Harvin, because I realize that the QB position is valuable and that Wilson had a historic second half of the season. I would be very open to someone having either Winfield, Bennett, or Wagner here, but I simply don't see an argument for Mebane. I am asking you to shed some light on just why Mebane should be slotted here._________________

DudeWhat?? wrote:

If I am a starting QB and my back up is Kellen Clemens..i would only have one question...."Turn up for what?"

And at the end of the day, I'm just sticking up for our offseason acquisitions. I think the guys we've brought in are getting seriously devalued on these rankings simply because we've seen more of the other players and we've seen them in Seattle uniforms. If Percy did what he did last year in Seattle blue and green, he's a top 5 player on this list if not top 3. If Michael Bennett did what he did last year in Seattle blue and green, he'd likely be leading the poll for this slot._________________

DudeWhat?? wrote:

If I am a starting QB and my back up is Kellen Clemens..i would only have one question...."Turn up for what?"

Brandon Mebane is the Anchor in our defensive line, the foundation of our team. Almost everything is built around what he is able to do in the front 7. Elite run defender and gap shooter at DT. The success of guys liek clemons, branch and bryant have been amplified and impacted by his presence.

In 2010 when Brandon Mebane missed time (weeks 5-8 ), Chris Clemons had 1.5 sacks in 4 games. By far his worst output over another 4 game stretch in 2010 (meaning weeks 1-4, 9-12, 13-16). In fact, that projects to just 6 sacks for the entire season. Very average output. As we all know, Clemons averages 11 sacks a season for seattle, meaning he projected to half his usual output when mebane went absent. That's the only stretch where Brandon has been absent in the last 3 years, making it a small sample size, but also effective in showcasing his impact on the line. That same 4 game stretch yielded a horrendous showing by the defense in which we gave up 239 yards on the ground to the Raiders. One of the 2 highest ground totals we have yielded in the last 4 years. The other? A sunday night in san fransisco where we surrendered two 75+ yard runs to frank gore. Guess who also didn't play in that game?

That's the only stretch where Brandon has been absent, making it a small sample size, but also effective in showcasing his impact on the line.

Maybe in 2010, but it's 2013 now and all of that is living in the past. If Mebane played like that in 2012, I'd have no issue with him being #8 on this list.

But now that it's 2013, I'll bring up some recent numbers. For a guy who is the "anchor of our defensive line" and the "foundation of the team", it's weird to think that in the second half of 2012 teams averaged 5.3 YPC against us, which ranked last in the NFL. It's weird to think that 5 of the last 8 teams we faced gained over 100 yards rushing as a team, and one of the 3 times we didn't was the blowout win versus Arizona.

I'm not buying Mebane being as good as you think he is with present day numbers such as that. You can say that reflects poorly on the team, but if you're going to label a guy as the "anchor in our defensive line", it reflects poorly on him._________________

DudeWhat?? wrote:

If I am a starting QB and my back up is Kellen Clemens..i would only have one question...."Turn up for what?"

That's the only stretch where Brandon has been absent, making it a small sample size, but also effective in showcasing his impact on the line.

Maybe in 2010, but it's 2013 now and all of that is living in the past. If Mebane played like that in 2012, I'd have no issue with him being #8 on this list.

But now that it's 2013, I'll bring up some recent numbers. For a guy who is the "anchor of our defensive line" and the "foundation of the team", it's weird to think that in the second half of 2012 teams averaged 5.3 YPC against us, which ranked last in the NFL. It's weird to think that 5 of the last 8 teams we faced gained over 100 yards rushing as a team, and one of the 3 times we didn't was the blowout win versus Arizona.

I'm not buying Mebane being as good as you think he is with present day numbers such as that. You can say that reflects poorly on the team, but if you're going to label a guy as the "anchor in our defensive line", it reflects poorly on him.

When teams adjusted to trap run plays that the niners exposed us with, it was on Gus Bradley for not making, or being able to come up with, the adjustment. I'll find the article that showcased how much more trap runs were used against us after week 7 (if i can). They're designed to take the interior lineman out of the play and free up another purposely._________________

Russell Wilson Fan since July 2012

Last edited by imani on Fri Jun 21, 2013 5:56 pm; edited 1 time in total

That's the only stretch where Brandon has been absent, making it a small sample size, but also effective in showcasing his impact on the line.

Maybe in 2010, but it's 2013 now and all of that is living in the past. If Mebane played like that in 2012, I'd have no issue with him being #8 on this list.

But now that it's 2013, I'll bring up some recent numbers. For a guy who is the "anchor of our defensive line" and the "foundation of the team", it's weird to think that in the second half of 2012 teams averaged 5.3 YPC against us, which ranked last in the NFL. It's weird to think that 5 of the last 8 teams we faced gained over 100 yards rushing as a team, and one of the 3 times we didn't was the blowout win versus Arizona.

I'm not buying Mebane being as good as you think he is with present day numbers such as that. You can say that reflects poorly on the team, but if you're going to label a guy as the "anchor in our defensive line", it reflects poorly on him.

When teams adjusted to trap run plays that the niners exposed us with, it was on Gus Bradley for not making, or being able to come up with, the adjustment. I'll find the article that showcased how much more trap runs were used against us after week 7 (if i can). They're designed to take the interior lineman out of the play.

Here we go. This is some good stuff and this is what I wanted out of the debate. I'd love to read the article. I read that KJ Wright had never even seen a trap play prior to the 49ers game, so you actually have a foundation there._________________

DudeWhat?? wrote:

If I am a starting QB and my back up is Kellen Clemens..i would only have one question...."Turn up for what?"

That's the only stretch where Brandon has been absent, making it a small sample size, but also effective in showcasing his impact on the line.

Maybe in 2010, but it's 2013 now and all of that is living in the past. If Mebane played like that in 2012, I'd have no issue with him being #8 on this list.

But now that it's 2013, I'll bring up some recent numbers. For a guy who is the "anchor of our defensive line" and the "foundation of the team", it's weird to think that in the second half of 2012 teams averaged 5.3 YPC against us, which ranked last in the NFL. It's weird to think that 5 of the last 8 teams we faced gained over 100 yards rushing as a team, and one of the 3 times we didn't was the blowout win versus Arizona.

I'm not buying Mebane being as good as you think he is with present day numbers such as that. You can say that reflects poorly on the team, but if you're going to label a guy as the "anchor in our defensive line", it reflects poorly on him.

When teams adjusted to trap run plays that the niners exposed us with, it was on Gus Bradley for not making, or being able to come up with, the adjustment. I'll find the article that showcased how much more trap runs were used against us after week 7 (if i can). They're designed to take the interior lineman out of the play.

Here we go. This is some good stuff and this is what I wanted out of the debate. I'd love to read the article. I read that KJ Wright had never even seen a trap play prior to the 49ers game, so you actually have a foundation there.