Millions of Jews were murdered in the Holocaust and this terrorist fuck claims it never happened. Check out how he twists the question when presented with photographic evidence by Katie Couric.

Yet the UN continues to grant this POS legitimacy. How is he not the next Sadaam? If the Israelis hadnt blown up Iraq's nuclear reactor in '83 this world would be much worse off, yet we allow this monster to advocate an agenda of terrorism, openly threatening America and Israel. The world has gone so liberal as to allow people to mock the idea of freedom with no repercussions.

CAVSTRIBEBROWNSin07! wrote: If the Israelis hadnt blown up Iraq's nuclear reactor in '83 this world would be much worse off, yet we allow this monster to advocate an agenda of terrorism, openly threatening America and Israel. The world has gone so liberal as to allow people to mock the idea of freedom with no repercussions.

So you recommend what?

Going to war with Iran? Brilliant idea! I'm sure we have all the money and soldiers needed for that.

Not discounting the continued problems posed by Iran...but to go off on another "IT'S ALL THE LIBERALS FAULT!!!" screed without any logical suggestions is RightWingNut hysterics personified.

IOW, calm the fuck down. Israel is never going to let Iran have a working nuke. Iran is being watched closely by EVERYONE...including Russia and China...since both of them realize that there is no way they could stop Israel from going apeshit, and that doing so would be a giant pain-in-the-ass to both of them as well.

As far as that loon once again spouting of his Holocaust denials? Sticks and stones.

Do you share as much hatred towards Pat Buchanan and other Hitler appologists and Holocaust deniers in America?

Brilliant idea! I'm sure we have all the money and soldiers needed for that.

Stop throwing trillions of dollars at pointless shit and use it on a legitimate world-helping purpose: Nipping these fuckers' plans in the bud.

Israel is never going to let Iran have a working nuke.

Please tell me, how is Israel supposed to stop them? Their hands are tied - by the UN, by the EU, by the lefties within Israel itself. Most of the world is content to sit back and watch Palestinian / Iranian / Lebanese etc. extremists murder and maim Israelis on a daily basis, only raising an uproar when Israel retaliates by blowing up a terrorist stronghold, which oh so conveniently usually happens to have children in the building with which to feed the propaganda machine which the world so blindly swallows. It's well documented that these sickos will actually plant children near wherever they think Israel will attack next.

Iran is being watched closely by EVERYONE...including Russia and China

Russia has been providing Iran with weapons for years. A few comments last week about enforcing sanctions doesn't hide their true intentions.

As far as that loon once again spouting of his Holocaust denials? Sticks and stones.

True, but it still rightly bothers me.

Do you share as much hatred towards Pat Buchanan and other Hitler appologists and Holocaust deniers in America?

Or if you are unable do to age (as opposed to just being too scared)...then I'm assuming you're all for a 25-50% raise in your taxes to fund it.

Oh wait...if we'd just do away with "worthless shit"...like infrastructure, medicare, social security, civil defense, and things like that (along with the expense of two other wars going on right now)...I'm sure we'd have TONS of money to pay for this.

Also, please illustrate how Iran is an immediate threat to the security of the United States, and why it is that we are in such a position as to where we cannot wait any longer, and must initiate a full scale war on a country that is much better armed and defended than Iraq and Afghanistan combined.

I love how Internet Generals are always so willing and able to see young me die just to make themselves feel better.

NO. I want NOTHING to do with a war with Iran. It's bad enough we're fighting a two-front war as it is. This ain't Risk. We have limitations.

Please tell me, how is Israel supposed to stop them? Their hands are tied - by the UN, by the EU, by the lefties within Israel itself.

You think the Israelis would be worried about the UN if Iran constructs a functioning nuclear program? They're going to strike and take their obligatory UN horsewhipping in stride. Militarily there is nothing Iran can do if the Israelis decide to blow up their nuclear facilities. That's all that matters, not the UN.

Please tell me, how is Israel supposed to stop them? Their hands are tied - by the UN, by the EU, by the lefties within Israel itself.

You think the Israelis would be worried about the UN if Iran constructs a functioning nuclear program? They're going to strike and take their obligatory UN horsewhipping in stride. Militarily there is nothing Iran can do if the Israelis decide to blow up their nuclear facilities. That's all that matters, not the UN.

+1

Anyone thinking that Israel wouldn't send in surgical strikes from Hell upon Iran to knock out anything that poses a real threat because they are "worried about what the rest of the world would think" is obviously ignorant of Israeli history and mindset.

Israel does not have the ability to "take out" Iran's nuclear program. Their sites are spread out all over the country and ringed with sophisticated Russian SAM and radar sites. Could they they damage it? Sure, but at the expense of valuable aircraft and pilots. Israel can't suffer big losses to their airforce and still be ready for the retaliation that would likely come from the Muslim world.

Iraq in 81 was a horse of a different color. 1 site lightly guarded. People also forget how upset Reagan was with that attack. The Israelies embarrassed him, we had just sold them the F-16's they used in that strike, with the condition that they only use them in country.

It's not as simple as turning Israel loose and the problem is solved. If attacked, Iran can retaliate in horrifying ways, they still have alot of Hezbollah terrorist in Lebanon, they still have a large conventional military. In country, they have 25,000 Shah'eeds, people who will strap on bombs and die for the regime. That makes me concerned for our guys in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Edit. It should also be pointed out Israel lacks pure Hi Altitude bombers and have no Stealth Aircraft (they have purchased F-35s, but they don't have them). Neither the F-16 or F-15 can carry out bombings in Iran without the need for mid air refueling. They have roughly 400 fighter aircraft

Last edited by Cerebral_DownTime on Fri Sep 25, 2009 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Israel does not have the ability to "take out" Iran's nuclear program. Their sites are spread out all over the country and ringed with sophisticated Russian SAM and radar sites. Could they they damage it? Sure, but at the expense of valuable aircraft and pilots. Israel can't suffer big losses to their airforce and still be ready for the retaliation that would likely come from the Muslim world.

I'm not so sure the Israelis would face any large-scale retaliation from Muslims for bombing Iranian nuclear sites. First off, Iran is minority Shi'ite, not majority Sunni. Secondly, Iran is not an Arab country. Third, I doubt the Arab countries in the region- particularly Iraq and Saudi Arabia- want the Iranians to have a nuclear arsenal any more than the Israelis do. I think if the Israelis decide on military action, they'd do so with the tacit permission of the Arab countries they would necessarily have to overfly.

I'm not necessarily advocating an Israeli strike, although I wouldn't condemn them if that's the approach they take. Just that I don't think there'd be much in the way of blowback. Sure, the usual suspects would perform the usual tub-thumping at the UN, the usual fanatics would use the same soundbytes, fly the same banners, burn the same flags- but that's about it.

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Israel does not have the ability to "take out" Iran's nuclear program. Their sites are spread out all over the country and ringed with sophisticated Russian SAM and radar sites. Could they they damage it? Sure, but at the expense of valuable aircraft and pilots. Israel can't suffer big losses to their airforce and still be ready for the retaliation that would likely come from the Muslim world.

I'm not so sure the Israelis would face any large-scale retaliation from Muslims for bombing Iranian nuclear sites. First off, Iran is minority Shi'ite, not majority Sunni. Secondly, Iran is not an Arab country. Third, I doubt the Arab countries in the region- particularly Iraq and Saudi Arabia- want the Iranians to have a nuclear arsenal any more than the Israelis do. I think if the Israelis decide on military action, they'd do so with the tacit permission of the Arab countries they would necessarily have to overfly.

I'm not necessarily advocating an Israeli strike, although I wouldn't condemn them if that's the approach they take. Just that I don't think there'd be much in the way of blowback. Sure, the usual suspects would perform the usual tub-thumping at the UN, the usual fanatics would use the same soundbytes, fly the same banners, burn the same flags- but that's about it.

Maybe. But there will be blowback, make no mistake, Iran will retaliate. Our guys would be caught in the middle.

All that aside, Israel still cannot carry out such an attack without suffering heavy losses to an already small defense oriented Air Force.

That's a country smaller than New Jersey with a population less than NYC. Their military is made up of the same people who man their police force, , drive their buses, run their banks, teach, raise crops and produce electricity in the country.

Quick, surgical strikes are their only option as they cannot withstand a drawn out affair. And they're fucking good at it too. They are in the middle of the hell in that region but they're extremely well-prepared, mobile and violent when it comes to their military.

Their special ops and intelligence units are amongst the very best in the world. Those jobs are some of the only full-time military jobs in the country.

The reason that Netanyahu hasn't been prime minister for 10 years is tied to the above. Their form of government needs to be as mobile and effective as their military. They cannot afford a hawk or a dove for etended period of time and daily events often change the need from one to the other.

They can make those moves and they often have to.

Leave them alone, they're fine. They can and do facilitate effective means of preserving themselves. They do so knowing when the shit hits the fan they will have the support and forces of the US behind them.

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Maybe. But there will be blowback, make no mistake, Iran will retaliate. Our guys would be caught in the middle.

All that aside, Israel still cannot carry out such an attack without suffering heavy losses to an already small defense oriented Air Force.

Problem is that many will want to eliminate an Iranian nuclear capability. The Arabs don't want them to have it. The Turks don't. It might be possible for us to strike them from Turkey. The Arabs and Turks won't let the Israelis do that, but they would likely let us do it. And we do have the capability to do so.

A large part of the problem is that we didn't take decisive action against the current regime when dissent started after their last "election". A lot of this has to do with the Russians not wanting to participate in anything, though there would have been a few ways to make Iran hurt and make their government pay at the hands of their citizens.

The only real option to come closest to eliminate the Iranians nuclear ability would be US airstrikes. And I guarantee you that the Iranians have positioned many facilities near where large numbers of civilians are so that if we do attack that we can be called butchers and murderers of children.

I don't see the Turks getting involved in that. They let us attack Iran from Turkish soil and within 72 hours Hezbollah will be setting off massive car bombs in Istanbul. I also think most of Iran's uber sensitive Nuke sites are away from big populations, to avoid prying eyes. They same way we did with the Manhattan Project.

We can't fight a 3rd war. We don't have the money or the man power to fight another conventional war. Anything less than a full assault on Iran would be a tactical mistake.

There's no doubt that Russia and China are going to try to block or drag their feet when it comes to Iran. They have too much money tied in with the Mullahs and that troll Ahmadinejad.

Several years ago, I had the opportunity to train with a team of Israeli Commandos, along with one of our Seal Teams (for anyone who might have heard of former Seal Dick Marchinko/Rogue Warrior) and I have to say that the Israelis are a team of Bad MoFos......One of the finest tactical units I had ever seen.

It's incredible to see men/women training to fight not just for their country but for their heritage/history/religion and way of life. It's a trademark of the Middle East. Unfortunately, it's also how most of the radical Muslim world trains and fights, too.

And.....on a lighter note:

Tim: All right, it is cavity time. Ah, here we go. Which reminds me, did you here the one about the rabbi and the farmer's daughter? Huh?Jerry: Hey.Tim: Those aren't mahtzah balls.Jerry: Tim, do you think you should be making jokes like that?Tim: Why not? I'm Jewish, remember?Jerry: I know, but...Tim: Jerry, it's our sense of humor that sustained us as a people for 3000 years.Jerry: 5000.Tim: 5000, even better. Okay, Chrissie. Give me a schtickle of flouride.

Peeker643 wrote:That's a country smaller than New Jersey with a population less than NYC. Their military is made up of the same people who man their police force, , drive their buses, run their banks, teach, raise crops and produce electricity in the country.

Quick, surgical strikes are their only option as they cannot withstand a drawn out affair. And they're fucking good at it too. They are in the middle of the hell in that region but they're extremely well-prepared, mobile and violent when it comes to their military.

Their special ops and intelligence units are amongst the very best in the world. Those jobs are some of the only full-time military jobs in the country.

The reason that Netanyahu hasn't been prime minister for 10 years is tied to the above. Their form of government needs to be as mobile and effective as their military. They cannot afford a hawk or a dove for etended period of time and daily events often change the need from one to the other.

They can make those moves and they often have to.

Leave them alone, they're fine. They can and do facilitate effective means of preserving themselves. They do so knowing when the shit hits the fan they will have the support and forces of the US behind them.

I have never seen such a concise, informative, and dead-on explanation of Israel ever. That is great work, Peek, and I hope everyone reading this thread paid attention to this post.

Peeker643 wrote:That's a country smaller than New Jersey with a population less than NYC. Their military is made up of the same people who man their police force, , drive their buses, run their banks, teach, raise crops and produce electricity in the country.

Quick, surgical strikes are their only option as they cannot withstand a drawn out affair. And they're fucking good at it too. They are in the middle of the hell in that region but they're extremely well-prepared, mobile and violent when it comes to their military.

Their special ops and intelligence units are amongst the very best in the world. Those jobs are some of the only full-time military jobs in the country.

The reason that Netanyahu hasn't been prime minister for 10 years is tied to the above. Their form of government needs to be as mobile and effective as their military. They cannot afford a hawk or a dove for an extended period of time and daily events often change the need from one to the other.

They can make those moves and they often have to.

Leave them alone, they're fine. They can and do facilitate effective means of preserving themselves. They do so knowing when the shit hits the fan they will have the support and forces of the US behind them.

I have never seen such a concise, informative, and dead-on explanation of Israel ever. That is great work, Peek, and I hope everyone reading this thread paid attention to this post.

Peeker643 wrote:That's a country smaller than New Jersey with a population less than NYC. Their military is made up of the same people who man their police force, , drive their buses, run their banks, teach, raise crops and produce electricity in the country.

Quick, surgical strikes are their only option as they cannot withstand a drawn out affair. And they're fucking good at it too. They are in the middle of the hell in that region but they're extremely well-prepared, mobile and violent when it comes to their military.

Their special ops and intelligence units are amongst the very best in the world. Those jobs are some of the only full-time military jobs in the country.

The reason that Netanyahu hasn't been prime minister for 10 years is tied to the above. Their form of government needs to be as mobile and effective as their military. They cannot afford a hawk or a dove for an extended period of time and daily events often change the need from one to the other.

They can make those moves and they often have to.

Leave them alone, they're fine. They can and do facilitate effective means of preserving themselves. They do so knowing when the shit hits the fan they will have the support and forces of the US behind them.

I have never seen such a concise, informative, and dead-on explanation of Israel ever. That is great work, Peek, and I hope everyone reading this thread paid attention to this post.

Thanks J.

Always found their methods intriguing and interesting.

IMO, their military is overrated. They're good urban warfare fighters and their Intel Services are solid. They don't really fight a strong enemy. They fight guys throwing rocks at tanks. They beat unskilled militia and terrorist fighters who lack any type of advanced equipment. It doesn't prove much when you can shoot a missle into a crowd of people to kill one guy. Irsael uses gunships, fighter jets, and tanks on people that have none of the above. Palestine has long been on it's knees.

As for Netanyahu, the real reason he isn't the leader of Israel has nothing to do with having a mobile goverment, It's because he's a corrupt douche bag that alot of Israelis can't stand. Their politicians make Boss Tweed and Tammany Hall look like Eagle Scouts.

Peeker643 wrote:That's a country smaller than New Jersey with a population less than NYC. Their military is made up of the same people who man their police force, , drive their buses, run their banks, teach, raise crops and produce electricity in the country.

Quick, surgical strikes are their only option as they cannot withstand a drawn out affair. And they're fucking good at it too. They are in the middle of the hell in that region but they're extremely well-prepared, mobile and violent when it comes to their military.

Their special ops and intelligence units are amongst the very best in the world. Those jobs are some of the only full-time military jobs in the country.

The reason that Netanyahu hasn't been prime minister for 10 years is tied to the above. Their form of government needs to be as mobile and effective as their military. They cannot afford a hawk or a dove for an extended period of time and daily events often change the need from one to the other.

They can make those moves and they often have to.

Leave them alone, they're fine. They can and do facilitate effective means of preserving themselves. They do so knowing when the shit hits the fan they will have the support and forces of the US behind them.

I have never seen such a concise, informative, and dead-on explanation of Israel ever. That is great work, Peek, and I hope everyone reading this thread paid attention to this post.

Thanks J.

Always found their methods intriguing and interesting.

IMO, their military is overrated. They're good urban warfare fighters and their Intel Services are solid. They don't really fight a strong enemy. They fight guys throwing rocks at tanks. They beat unskilled militia and terrorist fighters who lack any type of advanced equipment. It doesn't prove much when you can shoot a missle into a crowd of people to kill one guy. Irsael uses gunships, fighter jets, and tanks on people that have none of the above. Palestine has long been on it's knees.

As for Netanyahu, the real reason he isn't the leader of Israel has nothing to do with having a mobile goverment, It's because he's a corrupt douche bag that alot of Israelis can't stand. Their politicians make Boss Tweed and Tammany Hall look like Eagle Scouts.

He must be a conservative.

It's his second term. A probable case of relying on the evil you know as opposed to that which you don't.

It's his second term. A probable case of relying on the evil you know as opposed to that which you don't.

We certainly have no monopoly on shady politicians in the US.

I think you dislike him because Clinton did.

Heh. Not a big Clinton fan. I dislike Netanyahu because he's A) corrupt as shit and B) He has no interest in pursuing peace or a 2 state solution. He wants no part of the "Roadmap to peace", one of the things Bush promoted that I agree with. Benny boy also loves the idea of Israeli settlements in what is clearly Palestinian lands. He wants the whole region for Israel. He's a douche.

It's his second term. A probable case of relying on the evil you know as opposed to that which you don't.

We certainly have no monopoly on shady politicians in the US.

I think you dislike him because Clinton did.

Heh. Not a big Clinton fan. I dislike Netanyahu because he's A) corrupt as shit and B) He has no interest in pursuing peace or a 2 state solution. He wants no part of the "Roadmap to peace", one of the things Bush promoted that I agree with. Benny boy also loves the idea of Israeli settlements in what is clearly Palestinian lands. He wants the whole region for Israel. He's a douche.

I don't have enough interest in American politics to argue sensibly CDT, and I certainly have less in regard to the Israeli political machine. I do know enough to tell ya that the average PM in Israel serves less than two years because of the varying 'peace plans' and corruption. The sentiment there ebbs and flows depending on what transgressions one side takes that the other counters.

Netanyahu is a hawk. Clearly of "the best defense is a great offense" mind. If he postures for or takes what is not his that's further that someone has to encroach to get to what is actually Israel. If he were an American he'd be a high rolling plaintiff injury attorney- "Start ridiculously high and settle for the upper end of reasonable".

As to their military, quick, overwhelming and unforgiving as to who is in the blast radius is demoralizing to an enemy. It's a sd way to have to live (or die) but it's not changing any time soon. As an aside, many people would argue that rocks and RPGs are all the US is facing in Afghanistan as well.

Peeker643 wrote:I don't have enough interest in American politics to argue sensibly CDT, and I certainly have less in regard to the Israeli political machine. I do know enough to tell ya that the average PM in Israel serves less than two years because of the varying 'peace plans' and corruption. The sentiment there ebbs and flows depending on what transgressions one side takes that the other counters.

Netanyahu is a hawk. Clearly of "the best defense is a great offense" mind. If he postures for or takes what is not his that's further that someone has to encroach to get to what is actually Israel. If he were an American he'd be a high rolling plaintiff injury attorney- "Start ridiculously high and settle for the upper end of reasonable".

As to their military, quick, overwhelming and unforgiving as to who is in the blast radius is demoralizing to an enemy. It's a sd way to have to live (or die) but it's not changing any time soon. As an aside, many people would argue that rocks and RPGs are all the US is facing in Afghanistan as well.

As for Afghanistan, the Taliban and AQ are well trained and funded compared to what Palestine has. Israel has just about complete control over everything that leaves and enters Gaza and the West Bank. All i'm sayin is I were a Palestinian, i'd probably hate Israel too. most Americans don't care to look at it from that point of view, because we don't like the notion of being little guy. Israel has a policy of demolishing the homes of the family of suicide bombers and terrorists. What would be the response here if we destroyed the homes of McVeigh and Nichols' family after the OKC Bombing?

Peeker643 wrote:I don't have enough interest in American politics to argue sensibly CDT, and I certainly have less in regard to the Israeli political machine. I do know enough to tell ya that the average PM in Israel serves less than two years because of the varying 'peace plans' and corruption. The sentiment there ebbs and flows depending on what transgressions one side takes that the other counters.

Netanyahu is a hawk. Clearly of "the best defense is a great offense" mind. If he postures for or takes what is not his that's further that someone has to encroach to get to what is actually Israel. If he were an American he'd be a high rolling plaintiff injury attorney- "Start ridiculously high and settle for the upper end of reasonable".

As to their military, quick, overwhelming and unforgiving as to who is in the blast radius is demoralizing to an enemy. It's a sd way to have to live (or die) but it's not changing any time soon. As an aside, many people would argue that rocks and RPGs are all the US is facing in Afghanistan as well.

As for Afghanistan, the Taliban and AQ are well trained and funded compared to what Palestine has. Israel has just about complete control over everything that leaves and enters Gaza and the West Bank. All i'm sayin is I were a Palestinian, i'd probably hate Israel too. most Americans don't care to look at it from that point of view, because we don't like the notion of being little guy. Israel has a policy of demolishing the homes of the family of suicide bombers and terrorists. What would be the response here if we destroyed the homes of McVeigh and Nichols' family after the OKC Bombing?

The Israeli citizens are conditioned to all of it CDT. Right or wrong, they understand their survival depends on it as unpalatable as it may be. Not to mention they all serve in the military

People here would be more prone to support such things if their city buses were being blown up by the McVeigh or Nichols family.

I like this practice as well (in theory anyway- I'm sure it's bastardized by corruption as well)

Going through the demands and rigors of army life on a totally egalitarian basis forges a common identity that totally transcends social and economic groupings. With a handful of exceptions, every senior officer has worked up through the ranks. Israel does not produce officers through academies, rather commanders rise through the ranks solely on the basis of their leadership and command capabilities.

Your 3rd favorite flask? Those sons of bitches. But you were smart enough to leave the top 2 flasks at home.

People here would be more prone to support such things if their city buses were being blown up by the McVeigh or Nichols family

I get what you're saying, but don't you think it's misdirected anger to destroy the homes of people who had nothing to do with it? I see what Israel's plan was, to deter further bombings by punishing the family of the dead guy, but it backfires when they see those armored bulldozers coming down the street. All Hamas has to do is say "hey look, those animals are punishing innocent people!". Then they have a whole new group of young people to brainwash with their garbage. All i'm sayin is there's two sides to this coin, the Israelis are not always right and the Palestinians aren't always wrong. But for the most part, that's how it's portrayed over here, Israel is loveable kid brother and the other guys are just dirty terrorsits.

I want Israel to be safe. They should have security, but as long as Palestinians live in utter poverty with no freedom, they won't have it. Beating on a beaten people isn't going to make them hate you less. You give Palestine a state a chance to live out from under the thumb of Israel, support for Hamas will melt away.

Regardless of which side you think has a greater grievance, Israel needs to recognize that keeping a group of people as refugees, controlling their entire lives, killing thousands of innocents, and never allowing them to rise out of poverty is an untenable situation. The Palestinians are no threat to overrun and conquer Israel; to pretend that Israeli sovereignty depends on a permanent apartheid, continued expansion of illegal settlements, a total blockade, and complete control over a group of people who were displaced is idiotic and shortsighted at best, evil at worst.

Both groups of people live there now; neither can or should be ignored or subject to violence or aggression. Both should have the opportunity to live a peaceful life. Thinking that one or the other can be trampled over and pushed into the shadows without repercussions is akin to believing in unicorns.

Israel makes me ashamed to be a Jew. It would seem that we have learned nothing over the past 3000 years except how to be vicious and treat those weaker than us the same way we were treated.

As a separate comment, I wouldn't read much into Israeli politics. It is fucked up beyond belief. The country is a mess politically, economically, and culturally. Someone once made the comment to me about all that the Jews have accomplished in the arts, entertainment, the sciences, politics, and business and how almost none of it has been by Israeli Jews.

I know more about pizza than you. Much more in fact. - Cerebral_DownTime

How'd we get to displaced palestinians when discussing the flexibility of Israel's military and political machines. I remember why I try and avoid the NHB. It's circular arguments that make my head hurt when they go tangential. Like fighting a war on multiple fronts.

I'm not talking about whether they're oppressed or oppressive Aoxo. I hear ya and agree about freedom and happiness. I'm saying militarily and politically they nimble enough to spin on a dime and they are extremely effective in that regard. Yes, a great deal of that effectiveness is based upon the fact they have no concern over collateral damage. They'll tell you it's for their survival. Others will tell you it's out of control. Either way, Iran has every right to be concerned about the Israelis.

Peeker643 wrote:That's a country smaller than New Jersey with a population less than NYC. Their military is made up of the same people who man their police force, , drive their buses, run their banks, teach, raise crops and produce electricity in the country.

Quick, surgical strikes are their only option as they cannot withstand a drawn out affair. And they're fucking good at it too. They are in the middle of the hell in that region but they're extremely well-prepared, mobile and violent when it comes to their military.

Their special ops and intelligence units are amongst the very best in the world. Those jobs are some of the only full-time military jobs in the country.

The reason that Netanyahu hasn't been prime minister for 10 years is tied to the above. Their form of government needs to be as mobile and effective as their military. They cannot afford a hawk or a dove for etended period of time and daily events often change the need from one to the other.

They can make those moves and they often have to.

Leave them alone, they're fine. They can and do facilitate effective means of preserving themselves. They do so knowing when the shit hits the fan they will have the support and forces of the US behind them.

Peeks, good work sir. Good information. Had a college prof who had come from Iran, had us read a book by a guy who worked for the Mossad, one of the best books I have ever read (didn't even have pictures )

Only thing I would disagree with is that the U.S. will come to Israel's aid, not going to happen, in my opinion.

"It's all about winning for me, and I think the Cavs are committed to doing that," he said. "But at the same time I've given myself options to this point, and like I said before, me and my team, we have a game plan that we're going to execute, and we'll see what we get."

"Thousands of innocents?" Please. I've read in places that there were more Palestinians killed in one week by King Hussein's army during Black September in 1970 than by the Israelis during the entirety of the Second Intifada. Compared to what some countries would do- China, for instance- the Israelis treat the Palestinians with kid gloves.

The Palestinians are no threat to overrun and conquer Israel

Not true. Demographically they are the ultimate threat to overrun and conquer Israel. To be perfectly honest, I would advocate the expulsion of the bulk of the Palestinian population from west of the Jordan, if I thought the Israelis could get away with it.

Israel makes me ashamed to be a Jew. It would seem that we have learned nothing over the past 3000 years except how to be vicious and treat those weaker than us the same way we were treated.

So you're one of those Jews who feels there's some kind of glamour in being a victim?

I'm one of those Jews who feels it's a hell of a lot better to wield the hammer than to be on its business end.

Besides, the Arabs are a garbage civilization. If they weren't, they could have kept a bunch of pasty-faced European Jews from coming along and ganking their country right out from under them in the first place. Israel is a superior society to Palestine, they should have the upper hand.

Besides, the Arabs are a garbage civilization. If they weren't, they could have kept a bunch of pasty-faced European Jews from coming along and ganking their country right out from under them in the first place. Israel is a superior society to Palestine, they should have the upper hand.

Right, because Israel was founded by European Jews alone, it's not like there were Western Powers backing them or anything. Without the British (who had been begging for a Jewish state since 1917) aid and training the Haganah would've been slaughtered. They've never been superior to shit, only lucky to have powerful friends. Without Western money they'd be nothing. If the US cut them off from their yearly $3 Billion dollars in aid, their economy would collapse, they aren't self sufficient. It's like an international welfare state. Shit.... Talk about a garbage civilization, too weak to survive without other peoples' money.

What about all those groups throughtout history that had the "upper hand" on the Jews? Were they right in what they did? Alot of them thought they had the "superior society", and used it to enslave and murder Jews.

Right, because Israel was founded by European Jews alone, it's not like there were Western Powers backing them or anything. Without the British (who had been begging for a Jewish state since 1917) aid and training the Haganah would've been slaughtered. They've never been superior to shit, only lucky to have powerful friends. Without Western money they'd be nothing. If the US cut them off from their yearly $3 Billion dollars in aid, their economy would collapse, they aren't self sufficient. It's like an international welfare state. Shit.... Talk about a garbage civilization, too weak to survive without other peoples' money.

So Israel is an international welfare state. So what? They've built a first-world country on handouts. The Arabs are sitting on God only knows how much of the most valuable natural resource on earth and they're too fucking stupid to even get it out of the ground without Western know-how. You want to cut off aid to the Israelis, I wouldn't object. They're an educated, industrious populace; they'd adapt. They'd still have the upper hand over the Arabs, that's for sure. Christ, the Rhodesians stuck it out for 15 years under international sanctions, landlocked, and consisting of 5 percent of the population of the nation they were attempting to govern. The Israelis could and would survive for a hell of a lot longer than that.

But I do like how your reflexive liberal anti-Westernism kicks in, CDT. I figured it would for someone. NOOOOO!!!!! BROWN PEOPLE GOOD!!!!! WHITE PEOPLE BAD!!!!! ARAB GOOD!!!!! ISRAEL BAD!!!! You guys just can't help yourselves.

BTW, you're wrong about the British "begging for a Jewish state." The British got buyer's remorse about two minutes after the Balfour Doctrine was printed off. Actually, they were whispering sweet nothings to a lot of different peoples at around that time- whatever it took to win the war, you know. They made a lot of BS promises to the Italians, Greeks, Arabs, Kurds, etc. as well as the Jews. Me, personally, I don't attach any importance to the Balfour Doctrine as a justification for Israeli statehood. The only justification the Israelis need is their control of the land. That's it. Might makes right.

What about all those groups throughtout history that had the "upper hand" on the Jews? Were they right in what they did? Alot of them thought they had the "superior society", and used it to enslave and murder Jews.

But I do like how your reflexive liberal anti-Westernism kicks in, CDT. I figured it would for someone. NOOOOO!!!!! BROWN PEOPLE GOOD!!!!! WHITE PEOPLE BAD!!!!! ARAB GOOD!!!!! ISRAEL BAD!!!! You guys just can't help yourselves.

Now you get it! Kill Whitey! Wait.... Nevermind. I don't like that idea at all.

lol. That's why I like reading your counter argurments. Despite my liberal nature, I have no t-shirts or posters of Che Guevara.

I don't really think Israel is a garbage civilization. Just spewing bile to fight bile.

I like Israel and I want them to be safe, I just disagree with some of their methods. If I had the power i'd wipe out every terrorist group on earth with the wave of my hand. I still think if you give Palestine their own state and let them get out from under Israeli domination, support of Hamas and their tactics will disappear. Especially now that Arafat is rotting in a hole.

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I still think if you give Palestine their own state and let them get out from under Israeli domination, support of Hamas and their tactics will disappear. Especially now that Arafat is rotting in a hole.

One of the reasons I'm so hardline on the Palestinians, other than my ethnic biases and chauvinism, is because I know they have a legitimate beef. I'd be pissed off too, on a multi-generational level, if I were them. I would consider the entire Land legitimately mine, if I were them, including the coastal areas, the Galilee, the Negev- all of it. And I don't know if I would settle just for the West Bank and Gaza- or at any rate, I'd consider those areas as simply forward bases to be eventually used as springboards to conquer the rest of the country.

I think the Palestinian argument with Israel- the Arab argument with Israel- is far more existential than just a matter of giving them this and that piece of land and getting them out from under foreign domination and letting them make money. I think the very presence of Israel is an intolerable affront to the Arabs and again, I can't fault them for having this attitude. So I'm not optimistic in regards to a two-state solution.

And no, never read Dore Gold. Heard of Dore Gold, never read Dore Gold. I do have some titles on the conflict from varying perspectives.

HermanFontenot wrote:.And no, never read Dore Gold. Heard of Dore Gold, never read Dore Gold. I do have some titles on the conflict from varying perspectives.

Do yourself a favor and pick up Hatred's Kingdom. His works on the Wahabbist and the Ilkwan were pretty good. Sure he's a biased Israeli, but I thought he was somewhat fair, no different than if a Palestinian wrote a book on the history of Judaism. I think if it was up to Gold, we never would've helped the Saudis in the first Gulf War.