D-Nice: Hi, long time listener. First time caller. I've watched your posts with interest for some time. Thank you for your continued dedication to these forums, and thanks in advance for tackling my questions below.

Like many I am trying to decide between the 800U and 5020FD/111FD (looking at about ~$4k, $5k, ~$6k respectively when all is said in done here in Canada (hopefully less).

I saw you stated that you planned to purchase an 800U a few posts back. I'm very interested to know (as I'm sure many readers are) how you came to this decision. Especially given your apparent admiration and extensive knowledge of the comparative advantages of going Kuro Elite with the picture processing, blacks, CR, 24p, Pure Mode, Calibration advantages, just to name a few. And your chastizing of Panasonic for it's CR numbers -- which I believe you described as extremely insulting to the consumer. As well as your belief that the 9G's Kuro Elite is the best and the 800U won't come close in many respects.

Can you please help the rest of us better understand how you came to your decision to go with an 800U (instead of a Kuro or Kuro Elite)? Do you already own any Kuro models? And can you shed light for those of us looking at the cost/value analysis between the two ends of the spectrum -- 800U and 111FD?

Do you figure the 800U is 'good enough' for now and better to save the added price of a 9G Kuro for future purchases? Do you think someone who purchases a 9G Kuro Elite for ~$2k more than an 800U is getting good value for that $2k, can you elaborate a bit on that?

What features are important to you that the 800U is adequate enough at or does well? Do you think there is much better technology coming down the pipe in the short term (say in 2-3 years) that would lead you to believe that laying down the additional cash for a 9G Kuro/Elite, is a poor investment at this time? (Q3 08) (ie. ECC Kuro, Panasonic+Pioneer, 2160p, 10G+ Kuro, etc.)

Issues that are keeping me from an 800U include reported poor 24p processing (48hz flicker reported), ghosting, CR, blacks, and of course, knowing that there is a (much?) better TV out there -- what do you think about the impact of these issues? (And do you have anything to add about the reports of 24p being flickery and noticably 'off'; compared 72hz Pure Mode of a 9G Elite?)

How can you live with second best being such a videophile and knowing what you know about the make, quality, design and features of these two panels. I'm very interested to hear you tackle these questions as I think it will help the rest of us thinking this through as well. Thanks for letting me pick your brain!!

D-Nice Realize these are probably very basic questions, and your support is always appreciated ! ! !
Regarding your post on the cable card slot being stripped on the 9Gs:
1) What purpose will an internal High Def Tuner serve without a cable card to allow a directly connected cable signal to pass to?
2) Is this HD tuner removed also resulting in the depth reduction?
3) Will an HD over the air tuner still be included in the Elite?
4) I am trying to understand if I will need a crap Comcast HD Box with the 9G Elite?
5) Bottom line: Will I just be able to hook cable directly to the 9G Elite and get HDTV like one can with an 8G and a cable card (realize it is only one way, but thought this was the only path to get HD channels without a box)?

D-Nice: Hi, long time listener. First time caller. I've watched your posts with interest for some time. Thank you for your continued dedication to these forums, and thanks in advance for tackling my questions below.

Like many I am trying to decide between the 800U and 5020FD/111FD (looking at about ~$4k, $5k, ~$6k respectively when all is said in done here in Canada (hopefully less).

I saw you stated that you planned to purchase an 800U a few posts back. I'm very interested to know (as I'm sure many readers are) how you came to this decision. Especially given your apparent admiration and extensive knowledge of the comparative advantages of going Kuro Elite with the picture processing, blacks, CR, 24p, Pure Mode, Calibration advantages, just to name a few. And your chastizing of Panasonic for it's CR numbers -- which I believe you described as extremely insulting to the consumer. As well as your belief that the 9G's Kuro Elite is the best and the 800U won't come close in many respects.

Can you please help the rest of us better understand how you came to your decision to go with an 800U (instead of a Kuro or Kuro Elite)? Do you already own any Kuro models? And can you shed light for those of us looking at the cost/value analysis between the two ends of the spectrum -- 800U and 111FD?

Do you figure the 800U is 'good enough' for now and better to save the added price of a 9G Kuro for future purchases? Do you think someone who purchases a 9G Kuro Elite for ~$2k more than an 800U is getting good value for that $2k, can you elaborate a bit on that?

What features are important to you that the 800U is adequate enough at or does well? Do you think there is much better technology coming down the pipe in the short term (say in 2-3 years) that would lead you to believe that laying down the additional cash for a 9G Kuro/Elite, is a poor investment at this time? (Q3 08) (ie. ECC Kuro, Panasonic+Pioneer, 2160p, 10G+ Kuro, etc.)

Issues that are keeping me from an 800U include reported poor 24p processing (48hz flicker reported), ghosting, CR, blacks, and of course, knowing that there is a (much?) better TV out there -- what do you think about the impact of these issues? (And do you have anything to add about the reports of 24p being flickery and noticably 'off'; compared 72hz Pure Mode of a 9G Elite?)

How can you live with second best being such a videophile and knowing what you know about the make, quality, design and features of these two panels. I'm very interested to hear you tackle these questions as I think it will help the rest of us thinking this through as well. Thanks for letting me pick your brain!!

D-Nice Realize these are probably very basic questions, and your support is always appreciated ! ! !
Regarding your post on the cable card slot being stripped on the 9Gs:
1) What purpose will an internal High Def Tuner serve without a cable card to allow a directly connected cable signal to pass to?
2) Is this HD tuner removed also resulting in the depth reduction?
3) Will an HD over the air tuner still be included in the Elite?
4) I am trying to understand if I will need a crap Comcast HD Box with the 9G Elite?
5) Bottom line: Will I just be able to hook cable directly to the 9G Elite and get HDTV like one can with an 8G and a cable card (realize it is only one way, but thought this was the only path to get HD channels without a box)?

dam no more cable card slot so i guess i have to keep my ugly cable box then. or better yet get a HD one from cablevision then...

I saw you stated that you planned to purchase an 800U a few posts back. I'm very interested to know (as I'm sure many readers are) how you came to this decision. Especially given your apparent admiration and extensive knowledge of the comparative advantages of going Kuro Elite with the picture processing, blacks, CR, 24p, Pure Mode, Calibration advantages, just to name a few. And your chastizing of Panasonic for it's CR numbers -- which I believe you described as extremely insulting to the consumer. As well as your belief that the 9G's Kuro Elite is the best and the 800U won't come close in many respects.

I originally planned on getting one 46PZ850u for my daughter and have now decided to go with two 42PZ800u. Reason?

One 42PZ800u is going to one my daughters and she is only 3. She doesn't need a Kuro Elite. The second 42PZ800u will go into the guest bedroom....unless the 32" Vizio plasma is as impressive as others say it is. The non-Elite's oversaturated cyan, reds, and greens will not allow me to bring one home.

The THX mode on the 800u is suppose to give very accurate colors and I'll take a hit in black levels for more accurate colors.

LCDs can do nothing for me besides show the internet and/or Windows Vista.

I know that Samsung has much better colors than Panasonic. However, I do not buy Samsung products as I dislike the entire company.

After this year, I'm not allowed to purchase any new TV unless one breaks and cannot be repaired under warranty.....So I cannot wait on a 10G 42" Pioneer Kuro.

Keep the peace between Pioneer and Panasonic owners.

And yes I chastised Panasonic for their utter BS contrast ratio claims. I'll do the same for Pioneer, if they go the route of Panasonic.

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Do you already own any Kuro models?

I currently own a 1150 Elite Kuro.

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And can you shed light for those of us looking at the cost/value analysis between the two ends of the spectrum -- 800U and 111FD?

I don't get into these type of exchanges as you should evaluate both and see which one is more pleasing to your eyes....and checkbook (if money matters).

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Do you figure the 800U is 'good enough' for now and better to save the added price of a 9G Kuro for future purchases?

That is something you are gonna have to decide on your own.

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Do you think someone who purchases a 9G Kuro Elite for ~$2k more than an 800U is getting good value for that $2k, can you elaborate a bit on that?

Why do you think someone would have to pay 2K more for an Elite 9G Kuro?

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What features are important to you that the 800U is adequate enough at or does well?

For the specific applications the 800u will be used in my home, the only thing that matters is color reproduction and "acceptable" black levels. 0.009fL is acceptable in my book, but only for specific applications.

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Do you think there is much better technology coming down the pipe in the short term (say in 2-3 years) that would lead you to believe that laying down the additional cash for a 9G Kuro/Elite, is a poor investment at this time? (Q3 08) (ie. ECC Kuro, Panasonic+Pioneer, 2160p, 10G+ Kuro, etc.)

There is always something better in the development pipeline. If I could continue to upgrade every year I would. However, I've been told no...HELL not to be exact. The 9Gs will be a very good option for someone who plans to keep the TV greater than 4 years.

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Issues that are keeping me from an 800U include reported poor 24p processing (48hz flicker reported), ghosting, CR, blacks, and of course, knowing that there is a (much?) better TV out there -- what do you think about the impact of these issues? (And do you have anything to add about the reports of 24p being flickery and noticeably 'off'; compared 72hz Pure Mode of a 9G Elite?)

The "issues" you have pointed out are valid flaws. The 800u would not be my personal HT plasma due to said "issues". However, those things may be acceptable for someone else. Just like the buzz, streaking, and blotches "issues" some Kuro owners are having and cause them to return their panels for something else (my panel doesn't exhibit any of said issues).

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How can you live with second best being such a videophile and knowing what you know about the make, quality, design and features of these two panels.

It all boils down to application usage. I won't be using the 800u for any critical viewing or as a main display. As I've stated before, I'll take a hit in minimum luminance levels for more accurate colors (800u with THX mode only).

D-Nice Realize these are probably very basic questions, and your support is always appreciated ! ! !
Regarding your post on the cable card slot being stripped on the 9Gs:
1) What purpose will an internal High Def Tuner serve without a cable card to allow a directly connected cable signal to pass to?

To tune digital and free HD channels that do not need a cable card to decode them.

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2) Is this HD tuner removed also resulting in the depth reduction?

The QAM tuner isn't being removed. The cable card slot is. It does not play a role in the depth reduction.

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3) Will an HD over the air tuner still be included in the Elite?

Yes

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4) I am trying to understand if I will need a crap Comcast HD Box with the 9G Elite?

More than likely you will...unless you do not care for premium channels (HBO, Starz, Cinemax, ESPN, etc).

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5) Bottom line: Will I just be able to hook cable directly to the 9G Elite and get HDTV like one can with an 8G and a cable card (realize it is only one way, but thought this was the only path to get HD channels without a box)?

I am literally just some guy who has read this forum for a long time and registered because I wanted to get inside D-Nice's brain on the 800U vs 9G Kuro issue given his extensive experience and knowledge. I respect his opinion and would like to help myself make a better buying decision between these two sets.

Being familiar with Auditors posts -- because I read the 800U / 9G Kuro threads, lurking and soaking up the information as a great many readers do -- I am actually quite offended at the suggestion, on my first day as a member of this forum, in response to my very first post, that I am some troublemaker, especially given the genuine nature of my inquiry...

What in my post would indicate I am that person? As opposed to him, I'm asking a bunch of totally valid relevant questions in a constructive, polite and considerate way, for a constructive end, that will hopefully add substance, information and clarity to this forum -- completely the opposite of what Auditor does. I don't see any resemblance.. where did that come from...? :S

I expect an apology. :P Feel free to PM me your phone number and I can provide additional verification that I am just some nobody who registered to participate in this forum; and have absolutely no connection/relation/knowledge/sympathy/time for Auditor.

Not sure what the true 111FD MSRP will be in Canada. Some have said 5500, yet Frédéric Bourgeois of Pioneer Canada was quoted yesterday as saying USA and Canada MSRPs will be the same.

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It all boils down to application usage. I won't be using the 800u for any critical viewing or as a main display. As I've stated before, I'll take a hit in minimum luminance levels for more accurate colors (800u with THX mode only).

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The 800u would not be my personal HT plasma due to said "issues"

I guess that says it all. Doesn't it. Count me in for a big 'me too'.

Ok. So it's safe to say if you could/were allowed /had to upgrade your main set this year your answer would be different on the question of 800U vs Kuro? If you could buy a main/critical use panel for this year, is there any doubt that it would be the 9G Kuro Elite?

The last TV I bought was a Sony SXRD 60A2000 last spring, I thought it sucked and returned it. I'm glad I did because I'll be using that money I saved to buy a plasma this year. I'm still wrestling over which I will be most happier with given the financial implications, but it's hard to put a price on happiness. Right? (Thanks for responding btw! your input is appreciated and you answered most of my questions.)

Not sure what the true 111FD MSRP will be in Canada. Some have said 5500, yet Frédéric Bourgeois of Pioneer Canada was quoted yesterday as saying USA and Canada MSRPs will be the same.

Ahh, you're Canadian. They don't give discounts on Pioneers north of the border?

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Ok. So it's safe to say if you could/were allowed /had to upgrade your main set this year your answer would be different on the question of 800U vs Kuro? If you could buy a main/critical use panel for this year, is there any doubt that it would be the 9G Kuro Elite?

I'm upgrading my main set this year to a 9G Kuro Elite (or Signature). My 1150HD will go in the master bedroom (unless I can figure out how to get 2 9G Elite Kuros). Nothing in the PDP market this year will be acceptable for my main screens except a Kuro.

Ahh, you're Canadian. They don't give discounts on Pioneers north of the border?

Ya eh? didn't ya notice ya hoser? Yes poor unwashed Canadians. Somehow, despite the USD and CAD being at virtual par (and ours being above in the past..) Canadians suffer from a much less competitive marketplace because of the smaller market and national boundaries. It's common for Plasma's to cost 500-2000 more here, you'd think we were in Siberia or something and not just a few hours from New York.. Unfortunately, this kind of situation, people just pay the price. I had the owner of an authorized Pioneer dealer here in town tell me to my face that "he didn't need" my business when I tried to get a lower than MSRP price, and that he was selling plenty of panels to other suckers in town with (infinitely) more money than brains, that he didn't need to deal with me at all.. Can you imagine being treated like this in the USA?

Hopefully this price parity disparity is coming to an end, according to that Pioneer Canada rep I cited, he said that Canadian and USA MSRP should be at par with the 9G's (it would be a first, which is why I'm not holding my breath) BUT the fact that this guy is employed by Pio Canada and put his name on such a claim in a public forum, setting those consumer expectations either means he's incredibly stupid, or he's right. Time will tell. I hope it's the latter.

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I'm upgrading my main set this year to a 9G Kuro Elite (or Signature) ... Nothing in the PDP market this year will be acceptable for my main screens.

Sorry if I misunderstood but didn't you just contradict yourself? It wasn't clear, going from "Upgrading my main set to 9G Kuro Elite this year" to "nothing in the PDP market is acceptable as a main screen this year". Is the Kuro Elite good enough for you or not? :P lol and if not please tell me what you're buying next because it's tough keeping up with the D-Nice Jones' of the world lol here's hoping for a bank error in your favor so you can afford the extra 9G K.E. (and one for me too)

Sorry if I misunderstood but didn't you just contradict yourself? It wasn't clear, going from "Upgrading my main set to 9G Kuro Elite this year" to "nothing in the PDP market is acceptable as a main screen this year". Is the Kuro Elite good enough for you or not?

If this is true... it sound like when a panel does not pass the test to be a signature series... they will use it in there elite and non elite TV's.

so maybe now would be the time to get a regular Elite before they filter out the best panels for the signature series coming out this Fall.

I don't like the fact that I may be getting a pannel that was rejected because of a flaw that didn't pass the Signature series test.

You may already be too late to get a non-reject Elite. I would speculate that the reason the Signature line is coming out later is to give Pioneer some time to build up stock of cherry-picked panels from earlier prodution runs to finish building out as Signature Elites.

The non-Elite's oversaturated cyan, reds, and greens will not allow me to bring one home.[*]The THX mode on the 800u is suppose to give very accurate colors and I'll take a hit in black levels for more accurate colors.

Is this mean that the panny 800u will have more accurate colors then the non-elite 5020 ?

Jeff, I find that fascinating and very revealing. It may explain in a nutshell why some, like myself, are totally convinced that CS1 provides better results. Of course I've seen many many 8g Pioneers and the magenta sky issue with CS2 always seems to be there regardless.

I agree...it would seem that even with an elite, there is the risk of not getting one's money's worth. Ken, you're the only one I've seen who is very pleased with the non-Elite PQ. It's the direction I'm leaning (mainly due to price concerns) as well.

You may already be too late to get a non-reject Elite. I would speculate that the reason the Signature line is coming out later is to give Pioneer some time to build up stock of cherry-picked panels from earlier prodution runs to finish building out as Signature Elites.

This is not directed to the Poster, but to the concept that Pioneer takes "rejects" and dumps them into the non-Elite products. If the part is "rejected" ... it will be thrown out!!!

The cost to the reputation of the Brand, and the cost of Warranty work, would make using "rejected" parts a costly mistake.

They may 'claim' to "cherry-pick" parts for the Signature Series ... but that is something that sounds good to the consumer, and may get a premium price for the unit's, but makes no sense from a Corporate perspective.

For what it's worth, I've only seen 1 Non-Elite owner second guess himself because he did not spend the extra money on the Elite. 99.99% of the people who bought a 5010/6010 said they were "blown away" by the picture quality and know they made the right decision.

The Elites are better, but that doesn't mean the standard models are "bad" by any stretch.

I agree...it would seem that even with an elite, there is the risk of not getting one's money's worth. Ken, you're the only one I've seen who is very pleased with the non-Elite PQ. It's the direction I'm leaning (mainly due to price concerns) as well.

On a side note, where can I go to find out about a reputable ISF tech in the NY tri-state area? (Robert...Vashti...anyone else)

The callibrator I know and will use is Jeff Meier (whose forum name is umr) of accucalhd.com. He is not in New York but does callibration tours and comes here several times a year. His next NY tour will be in August. I know there are others. I haven't really tracked them because of my good experiences with Jeff. Htwaits has collected reports on lots of callibrators in a link under his signature. This can also be a good resource.