how are rogues these days?

warrior main, rogue co-main, was leveling my warrior first as i keep hearing grumblings of "warrior is awesome now/rogue sucks" but haven't spent much time checking the rogue out yet as i've been leveling the warrior and was wondering if anyone could give me the cliff notes on the current state of rogues.

obviously last season of cata rogues were pretty amazing, high dps in raids, #1 dps in arena, legendaries, etc. but i see most big name rogues are assasination now (not sub)? i liked mut spec from wotlk so it's not the end of the world for me going back to it (especially with the ability to shadowstep, etc.) but found sub fun, but much of what i enjoyed about it is available outside of sub now too. having a hard enough time transitioning to the new abilities/lack of familiar abilities on my warrior, haven't had time to figure it all out on my rogue too.

Yesterday night, I was doing my dailies. Random warrior walks up to me.
"If you can kill me, I'll give you 200k. I'll just stand still and use some of my defensive abilities every now and then."
I took him on as Assassination and went full PVE on his ass for maximum damage.
I was on him for a good 15-20 seconds or so, before I hit the 20% hp remaining mark.
At that point, his HP simply stopped moving. Neither Vendetta nor Shadow Blades enabled me to out-damage that passive healing of his.

in pve rogues are boring and pretty much middle of the pack. in pvp im not quite sure yet but as far as i know they were nerfed damn hard. i'm a long time rogue player but i'm about to change my main now. not because we are no fotm anymore but because i fall asleep playing my rogue. nothing that makes me smile anymore (like big crits, burst, proccs anything).

Second Wind is not a rogue issue. It's a HUGE issue, but not a rogue issue. We need a few weeks of arena before the devs eat crow. Ghostcrawler has publicly defended this OP bullshit like twice or thrice since its inception, so I suspect the devs have some ego wrapped up in it.

"It's fine that you can never die solo, because you might die in arenas."

Yesterday night, I was doing my dailies. Random warrior walks up to me.
"If you can kill me, I'll give you 200k. I'll just stand still and use some of my defensive abilities every now and then."
I took him on as Assassination and went full PVE on his ass for maximum damage.
I was on him for a good 15-20 seconds or so, before I hit the 20% hp remaining mark.
At that point, his HP simply stopped moving. Neither Vendetta nor Shadow Blades enabled me to out-damage that passive healing of his.

A little part of me died inside.

I stopped PvP after Cata and won't start it for a long time, but shouldn't you be using pvp power? Or was that just irony? ^^

I stopped PvP after Cata and won't start it for a long time, but shouldn't you be using pvp power? Or was that just irony? ^^

I'm sure he can gear up, but so can the warrior. Lets assume damage outpaces second wind eventually- what item level do you think you would have to have over the warrior before your full pve rotation can get through his one talent point?

The gear-point is a moot one. It's rather irrelevant. The points you should focus are these:

- I was geared and partially forged with PVE in mind.
- I was given zero resistance; Full dps-uptime
- I was using all my resources on raw damage; no cheap shots, no kidneys, nothing. Just pure damage.
- With all that in mind, it still took me about 20-ish seconds to actually get him low enough for Second Wind to activate.

These are impossible conditions in any given PVP scenario. This, literally, cannot happen. And yet, my damage just wasn't sufficient. 20+ seconds to down a target that provides no resistance is atrocious.

EDIT: At one point (after I had mercilessly tried to kill him after getting him sub 35%) he turned around and started auto attacking me. Would've taken him about 30, maybe 40 seconds or so to kill me.

PvE: seems fine, i have found Sub to be very fun both in solo and in heroics - probably sticking to it and combat as secondary (cleave is too good to pass)

PvP: i have done some random world pvp. The only "fair fight" i have found was against another rogue and even if he won (i'm not that good) i had a good time. For the rest, it seems i cannot hit a hunter despite being in melee while he can obviously still shot at me (i know about no more dead zone) or can be a threat for any other class even with CD up - this while my arcan mage friend throws random 130k+ bolts killing anyone in 2 or 3 spells.

Well, at least i get my dailies done fast

EDIT: started to mess with my pala for mining so i can skill up easily JC/ENG. Full tank gear and a green weapon from the first quest in JF and i'm nuking everything out while it took a lot more with the rogue.

I want to see some numbers of how many 90s of each class there is once the raiding and the PVP season are "in session".

Shadow Walk : Significantly increases Stealth effectiveness for 6 sec, but causes Stealth to be nerfed to justify its usage. In addition, it uses old Enveloping Shadows icon and has no sound, animation or spell effect to show that the skill is actually doing something.

It will very likely end in "rogues get some fix for 5.1" and "rogues are OP WAAAHH in 5.2"

It's not about power though, it's about fun and stuff. I'll start a thread about something related now.

Shadow Walk : Significantly increases Stealth effectiveness for 6 sec, but causes Stealth to be nerfed to justify its usage. In addition, it uses old Enveloping Shadows icon and has no sound, animation or spell effect to show that the skill is actually doing something.

you wont be able to kill anything apart another rogue . rlly everything else its pure fantasy .

Been pretty much my experience.

What bugs me, is that yet again this was predicted and reported in beta, and nothing came of it. Rogues need some serious work, in both balance and fun-factor (something that is, in my opinion, at an all time low).

What bugs me, is that yet again this was predicted and reported in beta, and nothing came of it. Rogues need some serious work, in both balance and fun-factor (something that is, in my opinion, at an all time low).

well im having fun with it tbh , but they need to make some changes to oure class , not rework or reinvent the wheel .

We suck as dmg both pvp and pve , so buff it , affect abilities which arent used in pve to fix pvp .
I mean mages there is a problem they do dmg , cant nerf one without messing up the other , frost was great in pvp and up in pve , buffing it for pve results even BETTER in pvp , and so on .

Rogues on the other hand are bad in both so fixing one wont make much trouble in other stuff ... oh well lets hope . Rlly looking forward to play it

PvE: seems fine, i have found Sub to be very fun both in solo and in heroics - probably sticking to it and combat as secondary (cleave is too good to pass)

PvP: i have done some random world pvp. The only "fair fight" i have found was against another rogue and even if he won (i'm not that good) i had a good time. For the rest, it seems i cannot hit a hunter despite being in melee while he can obviously still shot at me (i know about no more dead zone) or can be a threat for any other class even with CD up - this while my arcan mage friend throws random 130k+ bolts killing anyone in 2 or 3 spells.

Well, at least i get my dailies done fast

EDIT: started to mess with my pala for mining so i can skill up easily JC/ENG. Full tank gear and a green weapon from the first quest in JF and i'm nuking everything out while it took a lot more with the rogue.

How's energy and cp gen as sub? I just dinged recently an have like an ilvl of439 (quite crappy I know, had no luck with normal instance drops) and as assa energy regen is just horrendous. Found combat to be a lot smoother not to mention I can actually see some burst with Ad+Sb.

Rogues are fine, there is a huge difference between a good rogue and an average one. People always seem to forget that rogues are possibly the most gear dependent class in the game. We scale amazingly. So every expansion I see "boo hoo, I'm a terrible player and if my class isn't OP I suck" and then a patch or two later everyone thinks we are OP again even though nothing changed.

It happens for most classes but rogues are especially big crybabies. I've been a rogue main since TBC even though I had to play spriest for a while because my guild needed it. I have never, since the middle of BC (when I hit max level on rogue the first time) thought the class was broken in a bad way. PVP was stupid for a while, particulalrly when 3.0 hit prior to wrath but PVP has been horribly unbalanced since the end of s3

Hi aeser, i'm not at level 90 yet but I believe my point is still valid.
I'm having a ton of fun on my rogue and so far haven't had problems in random BGs even if I play against players who outgear me in their MoP gear. Rogues have utility, so even if what everyone says about rogues at 90 is true (regardin' dps), we still have a lot of utility which is enough reason to play a rogue.
I love my rogue and would suggest anyone to play a rogue. PvP isn't about 1 vs 1 it's about 2+ vs 2+ anyway, so even if you aren't able to kill shit you're able to lock down, control and determine the flow of the game more or less.