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—“Can you have reason without logic, and language without placeholder/tautology?”–Dmitry Chernov

We conflate the terms a great deal, but reasoning consists of both wayfinding (via positiva free association ) and what we call ‘logicAL’ operations (via negativa dissassociations) that test constant relations between states.

But if we are to avoid conflation, reasoning consists of informal free association and dis-association (dissociation), while the LOGICS consist of formal grammars by which we perform via negativa disassociations by tests (falsifications) of associations (constant relations).

A grammar consists of rules (patterns really) of continuous disambiguation. The logics study and catalog subsets of constant relations (dimensions) such as time.

When we ask, can we have language without referrents (Names) – well, we are capable of non-liguistic reasoning so yes. And we are capable of sign language. but we must have a grammar in both cases to communicate.

And as for ‘natural grammar’ that appears to be nothing more than the same thing neurons do in large numbers: associate and disassociate by a process of continuous disambiguation (category formation) and the recursive differences in state as we ponder it.