For this Cause He came for that which was LOST....Amazing Grace comes to mind.

Yet again we see those under law ,..Still carnal in their thoughts...for ever learning but never percieving, just how many times do scripture show us this....

We have all been DEAD, Born dead if you will but made alive BY HIM in us.

Jhn 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.Jhn 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Taffy, what was lost was the whole Adamic race of MAN, even Jesus's saints, those born from above, were here in the valley of the shadow of Death with no way out. No one could deliver his own soul from the Darkness for all fall short of the Glory of God, which is in Jesus Christ. As the prophet said:

Isaiah 26:17Like as a woman with child, that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O LORD.

18We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen.

19Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

The Lord knew always that He would have to deliver His family, His body from Death.

Isaiah 59:15Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment.

16And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.

17For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloak.

Isaiah 45:21Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

And so He came and delivered us, by perfectly obeying ALL the laws and statutes even to the thought of evil.

1 Peter 1:19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

21Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Vengence is the Lord's, against the Darkness, his agents, the angels who left their former estate, and his children the tares, who are called the generation of vipers. Vipers are poisionous, and deaf and can hear nothing.

Romans 12:19Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

The Saints of the Lord are scattered throughout the nations of the world, not knowing what tribe they are of. What is called Israel is not Israel, but the saints are.

15Look down from heaven, and behold from the habitation of thy holiness and of thy glory: where is thy zeal and thy strength, the sounding of thy bowels and of thy mercies toward me? are they restrained?

19So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.

20And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.

21As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

H1350גּאלgâ'algaw-al'A primitive root, to redeem (according to the Oriental law of kinship), that is, to be the next of kin (and as such to buy back a relative's property, marry his widow, etc.): - X in any wise, X at all, avenger, deliver, (do, perform the part of near, next) kinsfolk (-man), purchase, ransom, redeem (-er), revenger.

rodm

OK here is my 2 cents: Sorry its so long, but Thought I might as well jump in with both feet, and cover a lot of territory:

True and False Christianity...Both have been produced by the Bible.

Christians will answer that God, preserved the bible for us, and it is a miracle.

I have an opinion, based upon my miniscule understanding of Scripture...Everything is contrast (light, dark, evil, good), or it's to express God's glory...

The contrast in Christianity is the true church, the ecklesia -vs- the large visible body of people on every church corner. The wheat, and the tare. The good seed, and the bad seed. The Pharisee, and Jesus. This modern day replay of the life of Jesus in HIS body plural is so close, that it could even fool the elect....

So how does God establish the tare? It all started with two trees. The tree of life, and the tree of knowledge. We see the essence of these two trees, in many forms. One is wheat and tare.

They exist and are sustained by the visible, tangible, written word (Bible). They find themselves at home with the text, they can control it, they build laws, rules, and doctrines, they also remove God, who is Spirit out of their midst by these same issues of control.

While most of the members of this group are wonderful people and well intentioned, they are still like the Pharisees of old. They search the scriptures daily, but won't come to Christ, that they might have life.

The true body, the ecklesia exist by "the word", the hidden walk, knowing the masters voice.

This has got to be the common denominator throughout time, since many could not read, and the few that could read, didn't have a copy of the bible.

Yet the Ecklesia flourished, in the dark ages, and in countries that never allowed sacred texts, like China, and Russia...

Today both flourish, and this thing called church, or churchianity, has said to all, we represent God. But they do not, and God is getting ready to show this world, his true ecklesia….God's mercy and the world demand such an event, to rid God, of the stain, caused by all the TV preachers, and all the pain caused to so many in the name of God.

Now of course many may disagree, and I could be wrong, BUT I don't think so, and these are simply my opinions.

I think God is separating HIS people "The Ecclesia from this thing called church, which is churchianity.

He is building his kingdom, it is on the inside. That is what Jesus says.

There is no way for light and darkness to fellowship together and there is NO way all those people in all these churches are truly born again via an encounter with Christ. That encounter must take place...

So there is no way they can fellowship with one another. You might as well go to a Safeway store and try and do church with all the people there.

As in my sheep hear my voice, man shall not live by bread alone, the word of the Lord came unto, peter rise and eat. You see what I mean

"The word of the Lord" "The scriptures" can become a fresh word to you, but, we can not use the terms "The word" and "the bible" interchangeably.

The point I'm making is, there is a lot written in the NT about hearing, hardly anything about reading.

Everything written in the bible was spoken, before it was written. Genesis was spoken, and then written by Moses.

We must come to a common denominator, for people to receive Christ, the message, or to experience Christianity, and it cannot be the bible.

Still I love the scriptures, and they are true, they are God inspired. They have just been elevated to a place where they have taken the place of God, in many circles today.

Also to express my point, do this: Every place in the scriptures where it says, "the word" or "the word came unto" replace every instance with "The bible"....

It just will not make sense... As far as people studying "The word" vs studying "The scriptures"

I see a big difference between the two. One is heard, one is read. Many can read, few can hear. One is always spoken, and one is written, but can be made alive to you, and become a spoken word.

Thus we have interchanged the two, elevating "The bible" above God, and the leading of the Spirit, and "The Word"…

I wonder, could we say that we love the scriptures, and that they are inspired, but God never meant for us to live by them, but instead by the Spirit of promise, leading us into all truth?

We would have two types of church. Those led by the Spirit, and those seeing and leading only on "The book".I love the scriptures, and I have several bibles. BUT we must not elevate the bible above God, and I'm afraid that is what many churches (people) have done.

Concerning experience:

I agree God has a basic foundation of truth; His character, TRUE experiences, and TRUE interpretation, go hand in hand.

God has asked people in the Old Testament, to do / say something's, that the present day Christian institution would condemn...

We cannot put God in a box, and try and make Him acceptable to our doctrines.

The "Word" and "The bible" are not one and the same...

The common denominator throughout time Has been God reaching out to man, possibly by a sunset, or a person "LED" of the spirit witnesses to you, or God speaks to you, but God is not at all times used the bible. Of course there are times that the Spirit moves someone, through the use of Scripture, but that is not my point.

What do we say of the first 3000 yrs of man, until Moses wrote the torah, where was God? He was doing what he has always done, personally interacting with man.

The faith we have is more than intellectual knowledge, it IS LIFE...Two trees were in the garden; today don't we face that same thing? "Knowledge" OR "Life"

I know this is an old topic, and has been fairly beat to death, BUT, as a former subscriber of the Seedline Doctrine, I want to say a thing or two. I say again, I used to believe much as Peacetroll seems to, but at some point I gave it up as false. A Christian minister whose newsletter I used to get also came out of the mindset, and laid out all the problems and dangers inherent in the seedline assumptions. The minister in question is James W. Bruggeman, and to get his name right, I pulled a random issue of his newsletter "Kingdom Journal." The lead essay of this particular issue was part two of three of "Eve: Did She? or Didn't She." That is the very essay in which he laid out the problems and dangers. Folks, seedline theology takes you into some dangerous theological [theo-illogical?] territory! I would advise any of you not to delve into it.

Peacetroll sez:"The son of perdition, Cain and a wife,were on the ark with Noah. Seven of the clean, two of the unclean. Noah being the eigth clean person.

Cain and a wife were on the arc with Noah. Noah had seven clean persons and he was called the eigth clean person meaning Noah. He also had two of the unclean, meaning Cain. If this were not so there could have been no kenites[son's of Cain] after the flood. They attached themselves to the tribe of Judah, and became jews. Look it up. Research it.

I don't say anything that isn't backed up with two or three scriptural witnesses. I get back answers that have one witness here and there and most times none to back what the argument against what I post is."

Laz sez:Pardon me, but this "Cain on the Ark" idea is not backed up with ANY scriptural witnesses! Peacetroll, where did you get the idea? Look at the Book of Jasher, chapter II, which states that Cain was killed by Lamech. The Book of Genesis does not contradict the Jasher account, so I accept it as is. BTW, the Book of Jasher is mentioned twice in the Old Testament, so there is the double witness Peacetroll requires. Owned!

Now, since Cain was killed before the great flood, and could not, therefore have been on the Ark, I will state boldly that the Kenites could not have been descendants of Cain. They must have been descendants of Ken. Simple. The only way for the Cainite line to have been preserved was for one of the daughters of Noah's sons being a Cainite, but Genesis, and the rest of the Bible, is silent on this issue as far as I know.

Logged

Socrates taught Plato. Plato taught Aristotle. Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon. This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people. That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth. He blessed the poor. He healed the sick. He even raised the dead. He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another. That's religion.

I mention for those not acquainted with this seed of Satan doctrine, that it has some popularity with those who believe not saveable "junk" people can be racially identified.

An authentic Christian does not believe in "junk" people, right?

Logged

Socrates taught Plato. Plato taught Aristotle. Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon. This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people. That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth. He blessed the poor. He healed the sick. He even raised the dead. He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another. That's religion.

I think you are wrong there LS.I've seen Christian interpretations that the Bible is for white people only.Calvinism teaches the majority of people are junk people which are predestined for the garbage incinerator.

Logged

1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

I think you are wrong there LS.I've seen Christian interpretations that the Bible is for white people only.Calvinism teaches the majority of people are junk people which are predestined for the garbage incinerator.

Can't locate the post on this forum; but it was posted in my early days on TM. But I found a few links that at least point to racial thoughts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpent_seedAdherents of the white supremacist theology known as Two-Seedline Christian Identity hold that white people are descendants of Adam and are hence the chosen people of God. The Jewish people are said to be descendants of Cain and thus of Satan. This belief was developed by Wesley A. Swift, Conrad Gaard, Dan Gayman[28][29] and William Potter Gale among others.[30] The opposing faction is called One-Seedline Christian Identity and holds that all people are descended from Adam, but only Aryans (here meaning Northern Europeans) are truly God's people.[1][2][31][32]http://www.wildernesschurch.com/articles/TwoSeedsHeresy.html

Before we get into exposing this false doctrine as the heresy it is, I will layout the basic points of the belief. The doctrine of the two seeds is an important teaching in the Christian Identity movement who holds the belief that the White Race are the descendants of Israel and that the gospel message is only for them. And also, those who claim to be Jews today though white, are not true Israelites but actual descendants of the devil..........Non-White Races are "primate races" which existed before AdamThe White descendants of Abel are the true Israelites

Non-White Races are "primate races" which existed before Adam

These groups of "sub-human" people have no soul and do not need salvation

That there is a great "Jewish Conspiracy" to steal true Israel's heritage from them

Since the Gospel is only for "White Israelites" they believe that the "Gentiles" of the New Testament were really members of the lost Tribes of Israel

The Church of God is composed of Whites only - thus the "Christian Identity" movementRead the rest. Google "Serpent Seed". But I think the above is enough support for my claim....The doctrine can be summarized as: Jesus came for humans. Every non white is an animal.....

Logged

1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Dipsinsationalism is a stronghold of racism. Taking up an identity and judging Divine qualification by racial status is nullified by the undeniable counter truth of how God's chosen people are identified. He gives them the Holy Spirit. That defines and qualifies who are the chosen of God: He gives them the Holy Spirit.

Logged

I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program! JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!! MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

I think you are wrong there LS.I've seen Christian interpretations that the Bible is for white people only.Calvinism teaches the majority of people are junk people which are predestined for the garbage incinerator.

Um, I think that's why I said "authentic."

As to salvation and going into the Kingdom, we are all equal. As to rank in that Kingdom, I think we will not be equal - we have the 144,000 and the bride of Christ for instance, and I believe that all Israelites (the real kind) will make up the bride. I think the Bible hints broadly that all will not be equal in the Kingdom.

Logged

Socrates taught Plato. Plato taught Aristotle. Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon. This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people. That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth. He blessed the poor. He healed the sick. He even raised the dead. He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another. That's religion.

I think you are wrong there LS.I've seen Christian interpretations that the Bible is for white people only.Calvinism teaches the majority of people are junk people which are predestined for the garbage incinerator.

Um, I think that's why I said "authentic."

Define authentic and/or Christian.Why are those wacko's less authentic Christians than many many other wacko denominations?

Logged

1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

He probably means the true sheep who hear their Shepherd's voice and follow Him wherever He goes vs. those who only say Lord, Lord, but don't do what He says.

In that case why use the word genuine?There are only 2 groups. Christians and others. Sheep of His flock and sheep of the other flock.

Logged

1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

I will take the challenge of what you believe in the intepretation of the wheat and the tares.

I simply believe as you do the wheat are what you say they are, they have beeen predetermined before the foundation of the world this is the firstfruits of the harvest, those called to be kings and priest for our God with jesus Christ, the tares are the imitations, by their fruits you shall know them?

At the end of time he gathers those for the lake of fire, so I will not say that Ephesians 2 has anything to do with it for those who have been set free from darkness were already the wheat, predestined.

So where is this all leading us, I saythe obvious that the tares will be gathered up and burned with fire, and I ask you for what purpose will they be burned with fire? This is wherre i believe the appropiate teaching of UR should have been explained that the fire of God id the refining fie for God doesnot wish any to perish but come to the knowledge of the truth; then is God our Soveriegn redeemer too late to save what is lost and whats more why did he predestine but a few, you have missed the point and many on this sight have missed it too. It is Gods will to save a few to save the many and that is the resurection hope that in the millenial kingdom he will bring the rest of mankind back to life, even though many resist, he will never give up on what he created for everything is good, the new heavens and new earth, says he will wipe the tears from everyones eyes neither will their be death no more or pain or sufferering anymore the former things have passed away :)