A great one time event. Use this as part of a long term seasonal local program that gets all tracks involved within a region involved to attract more people. Locals just aren't represented like NCNCA road bike events such as I posted above. The ABA is a National sanction. The locals need their own under that umbrella. No sanction wars, just something more direct.

RCain

Jun 17 2012, 11:49 AM

QUOTE (thebondtrader55 @ Jun 16 2012, 08:52 AM)

R, I'm going to write something now that will probably make you mad but I want you to know that I write it with the utmost respect and admiration for what you and all others like you do. It is not acceptable for you and the other great TO's to sit on your mountain and say "I'm doing fine - if you want to be successful do it yourselves." This is the core problem with BMX and it has been for many years. This type thinking is guaranteed not to expand anything. One poster on here wrote that there is too much distance between tracks for him to race as he wants. YES! YES! YES! So how do we fill in the gaps? R, you and the other master TO's do it. The town next to you has to have a track. The town next to them has to have a track. And so on and so on and so on. As I've written here many times if a town is big enough to have a football team and a LL series it is big enough to have a BMX track.

B.T., That doesn't make me mad in the slightest because I'm not telling anyone that they have to do it all alone. There is a huge support system in place even aside from resources that ABA offers. I have put it out there and said many times that anything I can do to help is only a phone call away (My ph# is published in every issue of the BMXer and Pull magazines, I'm easy to reach.) I've spoken to many T.Os and perspective T.Os over the years, some local, some all the way across the country and I'm sure that most T.O's are more than happy to share with others the things that have made their programs work.Up until 2 years ago the closest track to us was 200 miles away. We were successful despite this. I have been very involved the past 5 years in getting a track started in Spokane Wa. I still hold a seat on their Board of Directors despite some of the "Business" people there that seem to think my involvement is a conflict of interest. That track is now doing quite well and on their way to being huge.In other words, I'm not on a mountain telling anyone to "Do it themselves" I am standing in a trench, in the valley, willing to do what I can (which is usually limited by distance.) to help them out. The first thing I tell all perspective T.O's is "Call the ABA".I have also spoken to perspective T.O's in Moscow Id, Lewiston Id, Sandpoint Id, and Saint Maries Id. (Most of those within 50 miles of Cherry hill, my home track) Despite years of desire to build a track, none of those cities has gotten past Phase 1 (Talking about it) Except for St. Maries which built a track in 2010 and has yet to hold a race. the track is there (ABA sent a guy over to build it.) There is just no one left that is interested in running it. The long process burned out the original T.O.

The problem is not nearly so easy as just having help, there has to be someone there willing to actually do it, having great info and someone that you can call on the phone doesn't get it done, It takes local involvement They have to be willing to actually do the hard work themselves. Nothing that the sanction could possibly do is going to get tracks built (and actually holding races.) in those towns short of them hiring a guy to live there and run it. (Impractical, with little hope of any ROI)Its not as easy as someone saying "I want to build a track" Spokane took almost 20 years of negotiations with the city, Coeur'd Alene (Cherry Hill) took 7 years of negotiations. Something that a guy at a desk in Az. could not have done.

One of the biggest commonly heard fallacies in bmx is "If you build it they will come."... No... They won't! After you build it, you have to promote it, then endlessly recruit to keep the noobs coming in through the revolving door.

The problem with failing tracks is not that they don't have anyone helping, showing or telling them what needs to be done. It's that they simply aren't willing or capable of doing those things. Of course this is simplifying the problems, there are many many obstacles involved with building a track and many more involved with making it successful.

-R.

Elvis

Jun 17 2012, 05:40 PM

QUOTE (Bill Curtin @ Jun 16 2012, 11:23 PM)

and I almost succeeded!

And you'd of got away with it too, if it wasn't for those meddling kids.

Nice post Randy.

CWracer

Jun 18 2012, 02:41 AM

I don't really get this thread. We have NAG chasers on the gate every week here.

I think it was Elvis earlier who said 'don't force them to come. Make it so attractive that they'll want to come'. I'm guessing that's what we have here. Jake our TO is at this track nearly every single day working on it, keeping it in great shape, refining it. He's been involved with this track since the time I was a kid just getting started in BMX. I know from experience, he doesn't sit around and delegate. He is the first one digging in and getting his hands dirty.

And it's not promotional advertisement that makes our track successful either. Our track is scarcely known outside of our circle. It's not advertised in any way. It's all word of mouth that brings the riders in.

If our track is in any way exceptional from the norm in it's ability to keep NAG riders racing and practicing on it, all credit is due to the TO who keeps it a track that these riders *want* to ride.

JAF2

Jun 18 2012, 05:47 AM

QUOTE (CWracer @ Jun 18 2012, 03:41 AM)

I don't really get this thread. We have NAG chasers on the gate every week here.

I think it was Elvis earlier who said 'don't force them to come. Make it so attractive that they'll want to come'. I'm guessing that's what we have here. Jake our TO is at this track nearly every single day working on it, keeping it in great shape, refining it. He's been involved with this track since the time I was a kid just getting started in BMX. I know from experience, he doesn't sit around and delegate. He is the first one digging in and getting his hands dirty.

And it's not promotional advertisement that makes our track successful either. Our track is scarcely known outside of our circle. It's not advertised in any way. It's all word of mouth that brings the riders in.

If our track is in any way exceptional from the norm in it's ability to keep NAG riders racing and practicing on it, all credit is due to the TO who keeps it a track that these riders *want* to ride.

It is always good to hear and learn about a successful local program. As stated in many of the postings in this thread, people (TO's and voluteers) make the difference. But, the TO position is at best, a part time job and a difficult one at that. Finding and keeping good TO's is a major challenge in itself.

Although some of the challenges in running a successful local program are similar from track to track, each track has it's own set of challenges in terms of attracting and keeping riders racing. To get a better perspective of the problem of reduced rider/moto counts, visit some tracks outside your home track and talk to the TO's.

It is apparent from the views and responses of this thread that for some participating, this is a real problem. For others it is not as they are focused on their individual local scene. I have the unique opportunity to visit multiple tracks in multiple states on a monthly basis, exposing me to this issue on different level.

AshHill

Jun 18 2012, 12:18 PM

QUOTE (RCain @ Jun 17 2012, 01:49 PM)

B.T., That doesn't make me mad in the slightest because I'm not telling anyone that they have to do it all alone. There is a huge support system in place even aside from resources that ABA offers. I have put it out there and said many times that anything I can do to help is only a phone call away (My ph# is published in every issue of the BMXer and Pull magazines, I'm easy to reach.) I've spoken to many T.Os and perspective T.Os over the years, some local, some all the way across the country and I'm sure that most T.O's are more than happy to share with others the things that have made their programs work.Up until 2 years ago the closest track to us was 200 miles away. We were successful despite this. I have been very involved the past 5 years in getting a track started in Spokane Wa. I still hold a seat on their Board of Directors despite some of the "Business" people there that seem to think my involvement is a conflict of interest. That track is now doing quite well and on their way to being huge.In other words, I'm not on a mountain telling anyone to "Do it themselves" I am standing in a trench, in the valley, willing to do what I can (which is usually limited by distance.) to help them out. The first thing I tell all perspective T.O's is "Call the ABA".I have also spoken to perspective T.O's in Moscow Id, Lewiston Id, Sandpoint Id, and Saint Maries Id. (Most of those within 50 miles of Cherry hill, my home track) Despite years of desire to build a track, none of those cities has gotten past Phase 1 (Talking about it) Except for St. Maries which built a track in 2010 and has yet to hold a race. the track is there (ABA sent a guy over to build it.) There is just no one left that is interested in running it. The long process burned out the original T.O.

The problem is not nearly so easy as just having help, there has to be someone there willing to actually do it, having great info and someone that you can call on the phone doesn't get it done, It takes local involvement They have to be willing to actually do the hard work themselves. Nothing that the sanction could possibly do is going to get tracks built (and actually holding races.) in those towns short of them hiring a guy to live there and run it. (Impractical, with little hope of any ROI)Its not as easy as someone saying "I want to build a track" Spokane took almost 20 years of negotiations with the city, Coeur'd Alene (Cherry Hill) took 7 years of negotiations. Something that a guy at a desk in Az. could not have done.

One of the biggest commonly heard fallacies in bmx is "If you build it they will come."... No... They won't! After you build it, you have to promote it, then endlessly recruit to keep the noobs coming in through the revolving door.

The problem with failing tracks is not that they don't have anyone helping, showing or telling them what needs to be done. It's that they simply aren't willing or capable of doing those things. Of course this is simplifying the problems, there are many many obstacles involved with building a track and many more involved with making it successful.

-R.

This conversation is great but needs its own thread. Its getting a little off base with just encouraging bigger racers to go home - meaning giving them points for racing at home - benefiting them first and foremost and then helping out the less experienced riders..

I'd enjoy a thread devoted just to opening and maintaining a healthy track

AshHill

Jun 18 2012, 01:08 PM

QUOTE (RCain @ Jun 16 2012, 11:48 PM)

Great day at the races today! Signed up 6 one day free memberships and 5 full new members. (The 5 new members were last weeks freebies, next week we'll convert 4 or 5 out of the 6 we let ride free today.)

Since we decided a hug fest was in order I'll share a little something that will give you some insight into where I'm coming from.

3 weeks ago I invited a friend from work to bring his 8 yr old son out to the track, he came out when my son and I we're working on the track and riding. "Ashton" had a dept store bike way too big for him. He watched my son Cam (28x) ride for a while and was in absolute awe, His dad told me later everything he talked about all night was Cam this and Cam that. He signed up that weekend on a first race free membership, He crashed HARD 10 feet out of the gate his first ever moto. He immediately got up, road rashed and bleeding and finished his lap. He finished last in the rest of his motos. The next days race was our Race for Life, (No membership required.) He raced his old bike again and finished last all three rounds. I talked to his dad and he said that they could probably start racing in July sometime when Dad could afford a helmet and membership. I pulled an old Redline Jr out of the shed that we have used as a loaner and handed it to him, "Pay for it $5 a week, or better yet, don't even worry about it." then I let Ashton grab a helmet out of the big box of old helmets that we have. I sent him over to the bmx shop owned by our tracks V.P.. Terrance hooked up Ashton with one of his sons old team uniforms. His Dad took him to the track every day the next week. To say the least, he was stoked when he showed up last week, he battled and beat all of the kids that had beaten him the previous week. During the break Cam and I were talking and Ashton walked up to Cam with a huge smile on his face and asked "Did you see my races?" "Yeah", Cam said. "you know what?"..."You're a racer!" and threw down the fist bump.This morning Ashton beat the class by almost a full straight every moto.

That is why I do what I do, I want to make racers, I'm proud to see kids that grew up in our program move on to do well nationally. I don' give two rips from a circus monkeys arse who's making money or how much they are making. I don't care if I make money doing this, I have another job that pays me just fine. Any money above overhead that the track takes in I use to buy used bikes and recycle them into the program. I run, what some businessmen would cringe and call "A charitable organization."A wise old man (He's older than me, so yeah, old.) once shared with me a personal mantra that I wrote down and pinned to the wall above my desk for 5+ years, my wife finally tossed it out, but by then it was burned into my memory. It was simply this.

That's my goal. bring the benefits of bmx to as many people as possible. I honestly don't care how many races the sanction holds, or who owns it, or how much money they make, or how many hoops the Nags have to jump through to get a plate. I have no personal control over those things, they simply don't apply to my goal or are outside my realm of influence.

I've talked on the phone with a lot of the sanction guys, met a few briefly in person and they seemed like real nice guys, always helpful. I'd like to see them keep there jobs after the takeover. (Except that Curtin fellow, after his attempt a few years ago to destroy bmx, maybe he could be in the mail room or someplace where damage can be minimized.) But ours is a business relationship, What I need from them is affordable insurance, everything else they offer is a bonus (When you consider that I'm getting those bonuses, and there are plenty, for less than an independent policy would cost me, it's a pretty good deal.)

I run a track to make racers. Not money, not sanction policy.I want to make bmx as big as I can within the limits of those things that I can control. What I can't control I don't worry about, those things are what they are. Would it be nice if someone showed up at my door with a big bag of jellybeans, a trick vintage muscle car and simple easy to understand answers to all of my recruiting and retention concerns?Hell yeah it would!But in the mean time, I'll do what I know works. Building up bmx 1 or 2 riders at a time.

This weeks score:

Randy = 5 new full members.

This Thread = 0 new full members.

I appreciate your diplomacy Bond Trader in taking responsibility for our getting off on the wrong foot, in truth I am a sarcastic prick and certainly retain most of the culpability. I really do wish you well in your pursuit of some day owning the sanction. but please, one thing. There is something that the current ownership have fallen short of providing. A recent bmx internet poll has shown that a vast majority of its users would like to see monkey cannons. For cris'sake get us some monkey cannons.If I hear about the boys hanging a for sale sign in the window over in Arizona You'll be the first person I PM.-R.

Your a part of this thread are you not?.... This thread is soley about growing and maintains our sport. Not to compete with one another on who has the best idea or best track.

AshHill

Jun 18 2012, 01:14 PM

This thread almost needs to be renamed...

This is what I do, what do you do??!!

JAF2

Jun 18 2012, 01:32 PM

QUOTE (AshHill @ Jun 18 2012, 02:14 PM)

This thread almost needs to be renamed...

This is what I do, what do you do??!!

OR, mine is bigger than yours.

RCain

Jun 18 2012, 02:03 PM

QUOTE (AshHill @ Jun 18 2012, 12:08 PM)

Your a part of this thread are you not?.... This thread is soley about growing and maintains our sport. Not to compete with one another on who has the best idea or best track.

I'm not competing for best idea or track, I'm saying that we are successful at what we do. I'd like every track to be equally or more successful. There are plenty of resources available to help.I'm also saying that those who are asking the sanction to make some rule change to "save" local bmx are doing so with a very superficial understanding of what it takes to make make a local program successful.

Keeping score of the noobs is my way of pointing out the fallacy of the premise that local bmx is dying while also pointing out that, as of yet, this thread has lead to little change in UASBMX policy, and hasn't yet created growth. I understand it takes time, and I'm a patient man. I'm just sayin' if were talking growth and ya'll want to catch up, you're going to have to position yourselves away from this whole "Get the NAGs back/The sanction should do something." idea.I understand if you'd rather I didn't publish the scores.

Elvis

Jun 18 2012, 02:53 PM

It is impressive when those wish to engage in a freewheeling conversation only to find that the freewheeling was not the freewheeling they had in mind and then somehow declare everyone else is doing it wrong.

Which, come to think of it, states a great deal about this thread, probably more than intended.

JAF2

Jun 18 2012, 04:52 PM

QUOTE (RCain @ Jun 18 2012, 03:03 PM)

I'm not competing for best idea or track, I'm saying that we are successful at what we do. I'd like every track to be equally or more successful. There are plenty of resources available to help.I'm also saying that those who are asking the sanction to make some rule change to "save" local bmx are doing so with a very superficial understanding of what it takes to make make a local program successful.

Keeping score of the noobs is my way of pointing out the fallacy of the premise that local bmx is dying while also pointing out that, as of yet, this thread has lead to little change in UASBMX policy, and hasn't yet created growth. I understand it takes time, and I'm a patient man. I'm just sayin' if were talking growth and ya'll want to catch up, you're going to have to position yourselves away from this whole "Get the NAGs back/The sanction should do something." idea.I understand if you'd rather I didn't publish the scores.

This thread was created to stimulate conversation/ideas/opinions on diminishing moto/rider counts. It has been successful at doing exactly that. It was not created to change USABMX policy nor has a formal request to change USABMX policy been submitted to USABMX by myself. My observations are from a riders perspective who visits more tracks in a month than most visit in a career.

Then by all means continue to persue that angle, be sure to let us know how it works out for you.

Bikemonkeys

Jun 19 2012, 06:39 AM

QUOTE (woodybmx86 @ Jun 18 2012, 06:32 PM)

but they sure as heck won't hurt, and in fact, would help. You cant argue that.

That's not what the new kids say. They're way more intimidated by the "National" riders than just being at the track. And kids being kids and all, Johnny Newby rolling a Wally World bike quickly feels like a fish out of water, never mind when the "National" riders buzz by them in the air while they struggle up the jumps.

RCain

Jun 19 2012, 09:35 AM

QUOTE (woodybmx86 @ Jun 18 2012, 04:32 PM)

...You cant argue that.

Did you forget where you are?

thebondtrader55

Jun 19 2012, 12:41 PM

QUOTE (justafather @ Jun 16 2012, 11:55 AM)

Bondtrader you're right but you make this way too complicated.

USABMX business model pitch:

Here's the plan. 1. You start a track. that will take enormous effort but YOU can do it! We'll even help you if you ask.

2. You sign up new riders to be part of my sanction. Most of that money comes to me of course, but this is my sanction afterall.

3. You run races and charge a small fee to cover the expenses of running your track. Now the key is, you need to get people, including yourself, to volunteer because the income you get won't cover much more than track operations. Obviously you may have to come out of pocket sometimes, but remember this is for the kids.

4. Now we here at the sanction will run BIG races 32 weekends each year. Now our races will work because we can draw riders from 100 tracks. So even if no one track is doing that good we can make this work! Here's how:

A. We'll just commandeer a track each weekend. If that's your track we'll throw you a few $100 and you can take concessions. If it's not your track then that weekend may suck for you, but remember this is for the kids, right?

B. What's great is because we'll get in so many riders there will be classes for everyone and it will seem like a big deal. That being the case we'll be able to charge 4-10 times your fees 3x each weekend and bring in some decent cash. Pretty cool, huh? But, we'll need that cash because our people sure as hell aren't going to volunteer to do this, that's YOUR JOB. Remember those kids man!

C. Now if this all works sure I'll be able to afford a $4.3 million home in beautiful Arizona and your life won't change at all, but remember this is FOR THE KIDS! So, if your in this for the money then your in this for the wrong reasons.

D. When would you like to join us?

Brilliant man! BRILLIANT! To be honest, my hats off to USABMX for being able to pull this off. If only I could convince my distributors to work for free and let all the profits flow through to me I'd be Warren Buffet rich, so fast it wouldn't even be funny. Like it or not, these guys are geniuses for pulling this off. I admire genius.

Well, that's it, isn't it?

In the bad old days when we could just pick low hanging fruit we saw some of this type thing. We don't see it very much anymore (very rare in fact) for one simple reason - people just won't go for it or put up with it anymore.

Very nice job! I've printed this off for refernce in the future.

Thanks for sharing it!

thebondtrader55

Jun 19 2012, 01:05 PM

QUOTE (RCain @ Jun 16 2012, 09:48 PM)

Great day at the races today! Signed up 6 one day free memberships and 5 full new members. (The 5 new members were last weeks freebies, next week we'll convert 4 or 5 out of the 6 we let ride free today.)

Since we decided a hug fest was in order I'll share a little something that will give you some insight into where I'm coming from.

3 weeks ago I invited a friend from work to bring his 8 yr old son out to the track, he came out when my son and I we're working on the track and riding. "Ashton" had a dept store bike way too big for him. He watched my son Cam (28x) ride for a while and was in absolute awe, His dad told me later everything he talked about all night was Cam this and Cam that. He signed up that weekend on a first race free membership, He crashed HARD 10 feet out of the gate his first ever moto. He immediately got up, road rashed and bleeding and finished his lap. He finished last in the rest of his motos. The next days race was our Race for Life, (No membership required.) He raced his old bike again and finished last all three rounds. I talked to his dad and he said that they could probably start racing in July sometime when Dad could afford a helmet and membership. I pulled an old Redline Jr out of the shed that we have used as a loaner and handed it to him, "Pay for it $5 a week, or better yet, don't even worry about it." then I let Ashton grab a helmet out of the big box of old helmets that we have. I sent him over to the bmx shop owned by our tracks V.P.. Terrance hooked up Ashton with one of his sons old team uniforms. His Dad took him to the track every day the next week. To say the least, he was stoked when he showed up last week, he battled and beat all of the kids that had beaten him the previous week. During the break Cam and I were talking and Ashton walked up to Cam with a huge smile on his face and asked "Did you see my races?" "Yeah", Cam said. "you know what?"..."You're a racer!" and threw down the fist bump.This morning Ashton beat the class by almost a full straight every moto.

That is why I do what I do, I want to make racers, I'm proud to see kids that grew up in our program move on to do well nationally. I don' give two rips from a circus monkeys arse who's making money or how much they are making. I don't care if I make money doing this, I have another job that pays me just fine. Any money above overhead that the track takes in I use to buy used bikes and recycle them into the program. I run, what some businessmen would cringe and call "A charitable organization."A wise old man (He's older than me, so yeah, old.) once shared with me a personal mantra that I wrote down and pinned to the wall above my desk for 5+ years, my wife finally tossed it out, but by then it was burned into my memory. It was simply this.

That's my goal. bring the benefits of bmx to as many people as possible. I honestly don't care how many races the sanction holds, or who owns it, or how much money they make, or how many hoops the Nags have to jump through to get a plate. I have no personal control over those things, they simply don't apply to my goal or are outside my realm of influence.

I've talked on the phone with a lot of the sanction guys, met a few briefly in person and they seemed like real nice guys, always helpful. I'd like to see them keep there jobs after the takeover. (Except that Curtin fellow, after his attempt a few years ago to destroy bmx, maybe he could be in the mail room or someplace where damage can be minimized.) But ours is a business relationship, What I need from them is affordable insurance, everything else they offer is a bonus (When you consider that I'm getting those bonuses, and there are plenty, for less than an independent policy would cost me, it's a pretty good deal.)

I run a track to make racers. Not money, not sanction policy.I want to make bmx as big as I can within the limits of those things that I can control. What I can't control I don't worry about, those things are what they are. Would it be nice if someone showed up at my door with a big bag of jellybeans, a trick vintage muscle car and simple easy to understand answers to all of my recruiting and retention concerns?Hell yeah it would!But in the mean time, I'll do what I know works. Building up bmx 1 or 2 riders at a time.

This weeks score:

Randy = 5 new full members.

This Thread = 0 new full members.

I appreciate your diplomacy Bond Trader in taking responsibility for our getting off on the wrong foot, in truth I am a sarcastic prick and certainly retain most of the culpability. I really do wish you well in your pursuit of some day owning the sanction. but please, one thing. There is something that the current ownership have fallen short of providing. A recent bmx internet poll has shown that a vast majority of its users would like to see monkey cannons. For cris'sake get us some monkey cannons.If I hear about the boys hanging a for sale sign in the window over in Arizona You'll be the first person I PM.-R.

Thanks R, I appreciate your views. I suspect I'll have to wait for the sport to be stuck in the ditch again to acquire it but ya never know. Possibly after the O's yet again have no effect that means anything to guys like us. 2014???

R, there is no way on this planet for BMX racing to be successful without guys/gals like you. In fact one of the key ingredients for acquisition in my field is strong management throughout the firm that will remain in place. This means no more or less than I am acquiring the assets to back the initial purchase and the experts to operate it after I own it. If the local talent isn't on board - no deal.

Thumbs up on the monkey cannons - we'll get them from Elvis!!!

Thanks

thebondtrader55

Jun 19 2012, 01:12 PM

QUOTE (JAF2 @ Jun 18 2012, 04:52 PM)

This thread was created to stimulate conversation/ideas/opinions on diminishing moto/rider counts. It has been successful at doing exactly that. It was not created to change USABMX policy nor has a formal request to change USABMX policy been submitted to USABMX by myself. My observations are from a riders perspective who visits more tracks in a month than most visit in a career.

Agreed, J.

Good stuff from all points of view. I have a new appreciation for the viewpoint that things are fine as they are.

I'm always so darn busy trying to bundle up things to make them bigger and more profitable that I sometimes forget that a lot of folks don't want to be bigger.

And that's one perfectly honorable way to look at it.

Thanks for starting the thread and nursing it along as you have!

All the Best

woodybmx86

Jun 19 2012, 09:10 PM

QUOTE (RCain @ Jun 19 2012, 04:35 PM)

Did you forget where you are?

LOL!!!

Brett Middaugh

Jun 20 2012, 06:40 AM

QUOTE

1. You start a track. that will take enormous effort but YOU can do it! We'll even help you if you ask.

2. You sign up new riders to be part of my sanction. Most of that money comes to me of course, but this is my sanction afterall.

3. You run races and charge a small fee to cover the expenses of running your track. Now the key is, you need to get people, including yourself, to volunteer because the income you get won't cover much more than track operations. Obviously you may have to come out of pocket sometimes, but remember this is for the kids...... etc...

LMAO! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, soooo true...it's like owning a McD's and not making any money.

JAF2

Jun 20 2012, 02:06 PM

QUOTE (RCain @ Jun 19 2012, 05:33 AM)

Then by all means continue to persue that angle, be sure to let us know how it works out for you.

Will do on both accounts.

JAF2

Jun 22 2012, 08:33 AM

Current Poll Results: 70%+ for requiring locals to qualify for a NAG plate.

MeredithJL

Jun 22 2012, 10:45 AM

I voted no, assuming you mean those local scores would be included on top of points earned at nationals.

Making locals mandatory would affect some people's NAG points positively (those who have a class or those who get to beat up on slower riders as a result of combining), and others would end up at a disadvantage. People like the six expert going in with older kids or a 50 year old cruiser rider (of either gender) getting combined with much younger and faster opponents.

I certainly don't mind racing people younger and faster than me, but if it means I'm going into the Grands at a disadvantage based on that particular reality of my local scene, then I'm not for local races counting towards NAG points. I also don't want to be the beneficiary of easy wins as a result of being combined with younger and/or less experienced riders.

If you're saying "race a minimum number of locals and get a fixed amount of bonus points regardless of your finishes, then I wouldn't care.

Bmx Prof

Jun 22 2012, 11:48 AM

Meredith

They are suggesting making a certain number of locals mandatory for NAG riders to increase the local scene. Thus the only way that it would impact you was if you raced less than 10 local races.

I voiced my position on it already... but requiring me to race a certain number of locals will not entice me one way or the other. If I was in contention for a NAG... I simply wouldn't get it. At this point, I am not motivated by local races, nor am I motivated by the gray plate... rather the competition that I can race against in the National series.

And as several have pointed out, you should race locals just because you love to ride your bike. BUT we don't need to race to ride.

Again, I am not against boosting rider counts or the local scene, I just don't see the benefit to forcing someones hand. And, I am simply saying that for me, forcing my hand will not give the desired result, unless you are try to push people out of the sport. I appreciate the conversation on this board, and I will agree to disagree with those supporting it. I am ok with being in the minority on this point.

They are suggesting making a certain number of locals mandatory for NAG riders to increase the local scene. Thus the only way that it would impact you was if you raced less than 10 local races.

I voiced my position on it already... but requiring me to race a certain number of locals will not entice me one way or the other. If I was in contention for a NAG... I simply wouldn't get it. At this point, I am not motivated by local races, nor am I motivated by the gray plate... rather the competition that I can race against in the National series.

And as several have pointed out, you should race locals just because you love to ride your bike. BUT we don't need to race to ride.

Again, I am not against boosting rider counts or the local scene, I just don't see the benefit to forcing someones hand. And, I am simply saying that for me, forcing my hand will not give the desired result, unless you are try to push people out of the sport. I appreciate the conversation on this board, and I will agree to disagree with those supporting it. I am ok with being in the minority on this point.

Elvis

Jun 22 2012, 07:25 PM

QUOTE (JAF2 @ Jun 22 2012, 09:33 AM)

Current Poll Results: 70%+ for requiring locals to qualify for a NAG plate.

Teh Internets has spoken.

Also, monkey cannons in '13, they voted, it's on.

Bmx Prof

Jun 22 2012, 08:17 PM

Monkey Cannons actually received 100% of the vote. By my calculations that is roughly the same number of people who voted against the NAG requirement. HMMMM.... I think NAG riders should ride all locals with a monkey cannon on their handle bar.

AshHill

Jun 25 2012, 08:06 AM

QUOTE (Bmx Prof @ Jun 22 2012, 01:48 PM)

Meredith

They are suggesting making a certain number of locals mandatory for NAG riders to increase the local scene. Thus the only way that it would impact you was if you raced less than 10 local races.

I voiced my position on it already... but requiring me to race a certain number of locals will not entice me one way or the other. If I was in contention for a NAG... I simply wouldn't get it. At this point, I am not motivated by local races, nor am I motivated by the gray plate... rather the competition that I can race against in the National series.

And as several have pointed out, you should race locals just because you love to ride your bike. BUT we don't need to race to ride.

Again, I am not against boosting rider counts or the local scene, I just don't see the benefit to forcing someones hand. And, I am simply saying that for me, forcing my hand will not give the desired result, unless you are try to push people out of the sport. I appreciate the conversation on this board, and I will agree to disagree with those supporting it. I am ok with being in the minority on this point.

You would receive NAG points for your top 10 local races. It's not a punishment. The riders interested in jumping into the NAG scene may get the encouragement to race more nationals to make a run for the NAG plate if they feel they don't have to "points chase"... It goes both directions. I can probably assure you that a good percentage of NAG chasers would enjoy the idea of getting points in their back yard. After the first year, it will help bring more competition home. These riders won't be choosing local over national... No one races every national! And tracks in every state race during the week during the year (usually the summer).

Forcing isn't a very nice word. If that were the case the ABA is forcing riders to race a certain number of nationals and the grands... In the older women's groups they don't even have enough riders to fill their NAG plates based on the requirements. They are actually giving them to riders who don't meet the requirements.

Not trying to conquer the issues. Just trying to get more races involved in the NAG title.

Bikemonkeys

Jun 25 2012, 08:12 AM

If local points counted, it would mess up how National points are won. A kid that wins at small nationals but has a big class at home could out point a racer that wins big nationals but has a small local class.

AshHill

Jun 25 2012, 08:14 AM

QUOTE (RCain @ Jun 18 2012, 04:03 PM)

I'm not competing for best idea or track, I'm saying that we are successful at what we do. I'd like every track to be equally or more successful. There are plenty of resources available to help.I'm also saying that those who are asking the sanction to make some rule change to "save" local bmx are doing so with a very superficial understanding of what it takes to make make a local program successful.

Keeping score of the noobs is my way of pointing out the fallacy of the premise that local bmx is dying while also pointing out that, as of yet, this thread has lead to little change in UASBMX policy, and hasn't yet created growth. I understand it takes time, and I'm a patient man. I'm just sayin' if were talking growth and ya'll want to catch up, you're going to have to position yourselves away from this whole "Get the NAGs back/The sanction should do something." idea.I understand if you'd rather I didn't publish the scores.

Not really sure why you think this thread was meant to save the sport... The conversations amongst some of us have turned to that. The thread is meant to ask the question "why not get the NAG riders back by giving them a reason. You can not deny that more experienced riders at your track give back to your newbies -thus you...It's not about the money, it's about the experiences they receive. I remember what it was like as a new rider-I was 4... The TO's didn't make me the national champ -the experienced riders helping me learn to jump and pass did.

AshHill

Jun 25 2012, 08:21 AM

QUOTE (MeredithJL @ Jun 22 2012, 12:45 PM)

I voted no, assuming you mean those local scores would be included on top of points earned at nationals.

Making locals mandatory would affect some people's NAG points positively (those who have a class or those who get to beat up on slower riders as a result of combining), and others would end up at a disadvantage. People like the six expert going in with older kids or a 50 year old cruiser rider (of either gender) getting combined with much younger and faster opponents.

I certainly don't mind racing people younger and faster than me, but if it means I'm going into the Grands at a disadvantage based on that particular reality of my local scene, then I'm not for local races counting towards NAG points. I also don't want to be the beneficiary of easy wins as a result of being combined with younger and/or less experienced riders.

If you're saying "race a minimum number of locals and get a fixed amount of bonus points regardless of your finishes, then I wouldn't care.

Your right. Other racers are the same situation. May instead of making it mandatory, have it a bonus point system like you said. You race 10 you get X, race 20 you get X, race 30 you get X... For any non national, championship, redline cup race.

MeredithJL

Jun 25 2012, 08:57 AM

QUOTE (AshHill @ Jun 25 2012, 08:06 AM)

Forcing isn't a very nice word. If that were the case the ABA is forcing riders to race a certain number of nationals and the grands... In the older women's groups they don't even have enough riders to fill their NAG plates based on the requirements. They are actually giving them to riders who don't meet the requirements.

Ok, then. I dont support the idea of requiring 10 local races. And you're saying my 'top 10', as in how i finished. Like I said before: some people don't have enough to make a class locally, and this type of requirement would work against them. A six Expert who races 8 experts (and while this is good training, its not a guarantee he would win, right?) locally versus a six expert who races other experts his age and wins. For me, if I race cruiser locally, I'm racing out of class against a 12 year old and her mom. I'm not interested in receiving extra points for beating up on them ten times. It doesn't help them to lose by half a track, and it makes me feel like a jerk. But that's just me.

As for the older women's cruiser classes having riders who didn't meet the requirements for receiving a NAG plate, what requirements are you referring to? The NAG plates are rewarded based on points alone. You are not required to have six nationals nor are you required to race the Grands. So in the smaller classes, sometimes a rider has the points regardless of the number of nationals attended.

JAF2

Jun 25 2012, 10:33 AM

QUOTE (MeredithJL @ Jun 22 2012, 10:45 AM)

I voted no, assuming you mean those local scores would be included on top of points earned at nationals.

Making locals mandatory would affect some people's NAG points positively (those who have a class or those who get to beat up on slower riders as a result of combining), and others would end up at a disadvantage. People like the six expert going in with older kids or a 50 year old cruiser rider (of either gender) getting combined with much younger and faster opponents.

I certainly don't mind racing people younger and faster than me, but if it means I'm going into the Grands at a disadvantage based on that particular reality of my local scene, then I'm not for local races counting towards NAG points. I also don't want to be the beneficiary of easy wins as a result of being combined with younger and/or less experienced riders.

If you're saying "race a minimum number of locals and get a fixed amount of bonus points regardless of your finishes, then I wouldn't care.

Although the question of a required minimum number of locals was not drilled down to what the potential value would be, a value would have to be determined and how it could most fairly be applied.

RCain

Jun 25 2012, 01:50 PM

QUOTE (AshHill @ Jun 25 2012, 07:14 AM)

Not really sure why you think this thread was meant to save the sport... The conversations amongst some of us have turned to that. The thread is meant to ask the question "why not get the NAG riders back by giving them a reason. You can not deny that more experienced riders at your track give back to your newbies -thus you...It's not about the money, it's about the experiences they receive. I remember what it was like as a new rider-I was 4... The TO's didn't make me the national champ -the experienced riders helping me learn to jump and pass did.

As pointless as this is going to be, I will try one more time.We keep being told what this thread was "meant" to ask, in re reading the topic header/poll questions I'm seeing something different.The title starts out with a statement "Weak local rider counts across the country". It is stated as fact. It it a logical fallacy.it is followed by a question that has no shown statistical relationship to the original statement, it is left for the reader to assume that the reason local bmx is "Dying" is because the NAGS aren't showing up. It is in effect a strawman fallacy in that it sets up a false reason why bmx is dying then offers a solution to "fix" the non existing problem, therefore "saving" bmx. The first poll question assumes that reader agrees with the original statement.The second question assumes that the reader has agreed to both the logical fallacy and the strawman argument.

QUOTE

You can not deny that more experienced riders at your track give back to your newbies

You use the same tactics here in prefacing your statement by telling me "I have to agree with you." I don't have to, despite your insistence.I agree that experienced riders are a benefit to local programs, but that in itself does not address the issue here. I do not agree that all experienced riders are NAG chasers, nor do I agree that all NAG chasers are avoiding local races, nor do I agree that requiring NAG racers to attend locals will produce the kind of benefits that others in this thread assume would occur.

Is this thread about growing locals? or is it about requiring NAGS to get in a set number of local races in? The latter I have no further interest in discussing, so far there is nothing leading me to believe that there is a causal relationship between the two.

QUOTE

It's not about the money

I'm pretty sure I covered my position on that in an earlier post.

Brett Middaugh

Jun 25 2012, 01:51 PM

This thread is NAGging at everyone...

Elvis

Jun 25 2012, 01:59 PM

QUOTE (Brett Middaugh @ Jun 25 2012, 02:51 PM)

This thread

... is beginning to play in my head like bad Kabuki theater (but with less flutes, alas).

JAF2

Jun 25 2012, 03:30 PM

QUOTE (Elvis @ Jun 22 2012, 08:25 PM)

Teh Internets has spoken.

Also, monkey cannons in '13, they voted, it's on.

Elvis, you really hate this topic but continue to chime in. Do you have anything of value to add?

JAF2

Jun 25 2012, 03:44 PM

QUOTE (RCain @ Jun 25 2012, 02:50 PM)

As pointless as this is going to be, I will try one more time.We keep being told what this thread was "meant" to ask, in re reading the topic header/poll questions I'm seeing something different.The title starts out with a statement "Weak local rider counts across the country". It is stated as fact. It it a logical fallacy.it is followed by a question that has no shown statistical relationship to the original statement, it is left for the reader to assume that the reason local bmx is "Dying" is because the NAGS aren't showing up. It is in effect a strawman fallacy in that it sets up a false reason why bmx is dying then offers a solution to "fix" the non existing problem, therefore "saving" bmx. The first poll question assumes that reader agrees with the original statement.The second question assumes that the reader has agreed to both the logical fallacy and the strawman argument.

You use the same tactics here in prefacing your statement by telling me "I have to agree with you." I don't have to, despite your insistence.I agree that experienced riders are a benefit to local programs, but that in itself does not address the issue here. I do not agree that all experienced riders are NAG chasers, nor do I agree that all NAG chasers are avoiding local races, nor do I agree that requiring NAG racers to attend locals will produce the kind of benefits that others in this thread assume would occur.

Is this thread about growing locals? or is it about requiring NAGS to get in a set number of local races in? The latter I have no further interest in discussing, so far there is nothing leading me to believe that there is a causal relationship between the two.

Mr. Cain,

Declining local rider/moto counts are not a fallacy. I am currently traveling from ATL to LA and will race tonight at Bellflower, tomorrow night at Apple Valley, and Wednesday night at Orange Y. This Friday I will hit a local at Oak Mountain in Pelham, AL and stay over for a Redline Cup and a State Qualifier over the weekend. I am more than certain that I have visited and raced at more tracks than you (do you race?). My first hand experience is that local rider/moto counts are declining.

You point to your great local program and I congratulate you. I will be more than happy to support it in any way including putting my money where my mouth is. I wish you, your program, and anyone who volunteers to run the tracks across America the best. I said it before and I will say it again, I AM GRATEFUL TO THE PEOPLE RUN TRACKS FOR THE OPPORTUNITY THEY GIVE ME TO RACE ON THEM.

Joe Finelli

I'm pretty sure I covered my position on that in an earlier post.

As have I, mulitple times.

Elvis

Jun 25 2012, 03:59 PM

QUOTE (JAF2 @ Jun 25 2012, 04:30 PM)

Elvis, you really hate this topic but continue to chime in. Do you have anything of value to add?

Geez, I'd hate to break thread continuity....

woodybmx86

Jun 25 2012, 04:18 PM

here's my take. local numbers are not good. comparatively thoughout the last 20 years, they have steadily declined. Overall, yearly numbers. Not this one track, or my scene, or last year, or whatever. Big picture, BMX isnt dying, it really cant... but its not healthy. In most of the tracks i have gone too, which are quite a few in the midwest, and most national riders I know, they dont race locals. so, if we accept the premise that Nag chading riders are a benefit to have at the local track, then it wold be good to get them there.that being said.... RACING your locals, as in, places and points for them, shouldnt be added to a national score. BUT... added bonus points for a Nag rider racing locally would ba a good thing. I cant see the negative for the sanction... its not forcing a rider to do something, and its rewardimg a rider to do something that benefits the local track, AND the sanction... more riders at locals, and more PR for newbies seeing those good riders there. just not seeing the negatives in THAT scenario.

RCain

Jun 25 2012, 11:43 PM

QUOTE

Declining local rider/moto counts are not a fallacy. I am currently traveling from ATL to LA and will race tonight at Bellflower, tomorrow night at Apple Valley, and Wednesday night at Orange Y. This Friday I will hit a local at Oak Mountain in Pelham, AL and stay over for a Redline Cup and a State Qualifier over the weekend. I am more than certain that I have visited and raced at more tracks than you (do you race?). My first hand experience is that local rider/moto counts are declining.

Logical fallacy: Appeal to authority.

"Fallacious arguments from authority often are the result of failing to meet at least one of these two conditions. (1) The authority is a legitimate expert on the subject. (2) A consensus exists among legitimate experts on the matter under discussion.

Specifically, when the inference fails to meet the first condition, this is sometimes called an "appeal to inappropriate authority". This occurs when an inference relies on individuals or groups without relevant expertise or knowledge.

Secondly, because the argument is inductive (which in this sense implies that the truth of the conclusion cannot be guaranteed by the truth of the premises), it also is fallacious to assert that the conclusion must be true. Such an assertion is a non sequitur; the inductive argument might have probabilistic or statistical merit, but the conclusion does not follow unconditionally in the sense of being logically necessary."

There are nearly 400 USABMX tracks, for someone to have appropriate knowledge of these tracks declining ridership one would have to travel to enough of them over a long period to get a truly representative number to compare.

Hitting a few So Cal tracks is not representative of the overall health of bmx in the U.S. It has been a long held assertion that So. Cal. and its issue of 150 riders showing up to practice and 100 of them leaving when motos are posted is a localized problem.

JAF2

Jun 26 2012, 06:07 AM

QUOTE (RCain @ Jun 25 2012, 11:43 PM)

Logical fallacy: Appeal to authority.

"Fallacious arguments from authority often are the result of failing to meet at least one of these two conditions. (1) The authority is a legitimate expert on the subject. (2) A consensus exists among legitimate experts on the matter under discussion.

Specifically, when the inference fails to meet the first condition, this is sometimes called an "appeal to inappropriate authority". This occurs when an inference relies on individuals or groups without relevant expertise or knowledge.

Secondly, because the argument is inductive (which in this sense implies that the truth of the conclusion cannot be guaranteed by the truth of the premises), it also is fallacious to assert that the conclusion must be true. Such an assertion is a non sequitur; the inductive argument might have probabilistic or statistical merit, but the conclusion does not follow unconditionally in the sense of being logically necessary."

There are nearly 400 USABMX tracks, for someone to have appropriate knowledge of these tracks declining ridership one would have to travel to enough of them over a long period to get a truly representative number to compare.

Hitting a few So Cal tracks is not representative of the overall health of bmx in the U.S. It has been a long held assertion that So. Cal. and its issue of 150 riders showing up to practice and 100 of them leaving when motos are posted is a localized problem.

Excellent use of Google. Maybe you should try out for Jepardy.

geharrison

Jun 26 2012, 07:32 AM

JAF2, I count you as a friend and appreciate your passion for the sport of BMX Racing. I do NOT know RCain, but I have read his posts on this board for several years and typically find his wit and logic worthy of reading the next post. We are all on this board because we share a passion for BMX Racing. While we all share the passion, we do NOT share a singular vision. To that end, a debate like this can go on without conclusion...

I do agree with JAF2's assertion that "experienced" riders generally help less experienced riders (NAG chaser or not).

I do NOT believe "requiring" a certain number of local races out of a small number of riders (NAG chasers) will make a meaningful impact on BMX Racing at the local level.

I do believe that creating a fun atmosphere on Race Days/Nights & Practice Days/Nights will attract & retain riders.

I do NOT believe there is a parent in the stands on Race Day to watch the 19-27X Main (or any race other than their kid's). The parent showed up to see their kid race, seeing the faster more proficeint racers is just a bonus. If you don't believe me, head down to the baseball field and look at all the folks showing up to watch their kid play Rec League baseball; there is not a Professional Baseball Player or a "Travel/Elite Team" Player in the park.

Race on everbody. See you at the track...

Bmx Prof

Jun 26 2012, 08:52 AM

QUOTE (geharrison @ Jun 26 2012, 01:32 PM)

I do agree with JAF2's assertion that "experienced" riders generally help less experienced riders (NAG chaser or not).

I do NOT believe "requiring" a certain number of local races out of a small number of riders (NAG chasers) will make a meaningful impact on BMX Racing at the local level.

I do believe that creating a fun atmosphere on Race Days/Nights & Practice Days/Nights will attract & retain riders.

I do NOT believe there is a parent in the stands on Race Day to watch the 19-27X Main (or any race other than their kid's). The parent showed up to see their kid race, seeing the faster more proficeint racers is just a bonus. If you don't believe me, head down to the baseball field and look at all the folks showing up to watch their kid play Rec League baseball; there is not a Professional Baseball Player or a "Travel/Elite Team" Player in the park.

Race on everbody. See you at the track...

Greg is it people like you that are killing our sport. BMX is dying because of you!!!

Elvis

Jun 26 2012, 09:05 AM

It's a human thing to get a little testy when one's ideas are shot down. It shouldn't be, in the pure realm of intellect. Instead there we'd be able to separate ourselves from our ideas and let that thing take flight or fall on its own. But we're not creatures of pure intellect (well y'all aren't, I am, but that's another issue) so getting a little up in the back is the price of doing business.

Plus we as a group have so much passion for BMX that we're willing to spend hours in text-based exchanges debating the nuance of ours or another's given idea as it sails or is overcome by gravity. That, right there, is the good news/bad news joke of BMX: We, the hardcore, have so much passion for it.

woodybmx86

Jun 26 2012, 09:23 AM

Im still waiting for someone to "shoot down" awarding bonus points to riders who hit their local tracks. its a simple thing to monitor. and my point... who cares if the parents are there to see the nag riders or not.... the kids are. riders are. the participants themselves want to see the "big dogs" of the track riding and doing stuff. They are the ones who ask questions and say watch me and learn.

I just think it would be an awesome idea, would get more good riders to racde locals, would be better for local programs, and at theleast, would reward those nag riders who DO go out or their way to support local tracks. because, really, there is no reward necessarily for it, unless the TO goes out of their way to provide for those riders via money opens or whatever.

Bmx Prof

Jun 26 2012, 09:26 AM

Greg, I take it back.... Elvis is ruining BMX.

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