I think if the queen had been more involved with her children and grandchildren to begin with, a lot of things could have been avoided. I know she's the queen and has a very heavy workload--plus now she's 82 years old. I seem to remember a quote something about if the queen had been as involved with her children as she was with her horses and dogs, things would have turned out a lot better.

Perhaps; but once people become adults, they are responsible for their own actions.

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Originally Posted by murphy's mom

I think if the queen had been more involved with her children and grandchildren to begin with, a lot of things could have been avoided. I know she's the queen and has a very heavy workload--plus now she's 82 years old. I seem to remember a quote something about if the queen had been as involved with her children as she was with her horses and dogs, things would have turned out a lot better.

If the Royal Family in the U.K was streamlined like it is in other countries ie with the emphasis being on the Monarch, his/her heir and their children there wouldn't be this issue with Bea's security as she would be seen as a minor Royal, grandaughter of the Queen or not, and she simply wouldn't get it. In Britain ALL the children and grandchildren of the Queen with the HRH are somehow seen as being entitled to top V.I.P status at the taxpayers expense and it has to stop. I think the introduction of His/Her Highness rather than HRH for those not in direct succession would work well here as there would then be a clear demarcation of senior and minor Royals. It would also have meant that Sophie and Edward's children could have kept the titles of Prince/Princess without their parents taking the step they did to move them away, as it were, from having traditional Royal staus. An elected head of State has state protection for him/herself and their immediate family and that is it. Can you imagine if Barack Obama started demanding the same for his siblings and their kids? If a Monarchy is to be viable in the 21st century it has to be run along the same lines or it won't be tolerated.

Part of the problem, imo, is that these girls are not like everybody else. If they were, who'd care if they lived in a nightclub. I look at it like this, Pss B & E have been born (thus not their fault) into a world of immense priviledge and luxury. Short of the sort of revolutions that saw the demise (and murders) of the Russian and French royal families, these girls are "set for life." They don't have to worry about getting good-paying jobs, they don't have to worry about how they're going to pay their mortgages or if they'll ever go hungry, etc., etc. More-than-likely they won't have to sacrifice anything (except maybe a certain amount of privacy). And to top it off, the British taxpayer - many of whom are struggling at the moment - are footing the bill for this lifestyle (Prince Andrew's pension would in no way cover nearly half of these girls' expenses and he does not have a money-making venture like the Duchy of Cornwall). Once again, I say if the York girls took some of their time and worked, say in a hospital or something, or at least volunteered so many hours a week (yes, in addition to going to university - thousands of other kids their age do it) there probably wouldn't be such a backlash. If they want to enjoy a lifestyle that is so far removed from those in their community, then they need to give something back to the community. Perhaps they should read the biographies on Grandpapa Hilton or Gertrude Vanderbilt Whitney or even Bill Gates and learn a bit on enjoying vast wealth yet addressing the needs of others as well. (Hilton and Whitney, born into wealth like the York girls, began their charitable actions at about the age B & E are now, Gates - who earned his own fortune - came into his wealth a bit later in life but was involved w charities early on).

This is true, Bella, which is why we are critical of them and their actions. They need to be BETTER than Paris Hilton, Kim Kardashian et. all. They are part of the Monarchy. It's like our politicians and the endless scandals. Half the people cry "But they are humans too!" the other half say, "Yes, but they are supposed to be BETTER than the rest of us so that they may lead and set a good example."

Exactly. If I had a daughter in her teens, I wouldn't want her to have either of the York girls on a pedestal. However, I find Eugenie's behaviour particularly worrying. Visiting a lap-dance club is bad enough in itself, because some of the women who work in these places came from Eastern Europe and are forced into this kind of work by those who "help" them immigrate illegally.

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Originally Posted by Russophile

This is true, Bella, which is why we are critical of them and their actions. They need to be BETTER than Paris Hilton, Kim Kardashian et. all. They are part of the Monarchy. It's like our politicians and the endless scandals. Half the people cry "But they are humans too!" the other half say, "Yes, but they are supposed to be BETTER than the rest of us so that they may lead and set a good example."

Yes, PB and PE should set an example, wouldn't it be lov-er-ly if they were just a little more lady-like.

Unfortunately most girls learn how to be lady-like from their mothers and as much as I admire what Sarah has done to turn her life around since the divorce, she wasn't exactly the most shining light of lady-like behaviour before, or during, her marriage. As she also sees herself as the girls' friend, rather than as a mother (and I regarded my mother as my best friend when she died but at the ages the girls are now she was more a role model and someone to emulate rather than someone to hang out with and be 'best buddies' with), so she really isn't giving some of the direction that she should be giving - in my opinion only of course.

I'm hoping that "SuperGran," as Eugenie calls her, will be more and more of an inspiration as the princesses mature.

and Murphy's Mom

"I think we all need to remember that their role model is their mother, who loves nightclubs and partying, loves to take expensive holidays, and loves publicity."

That old adage comes to mind: "The apple doesn't fall far from the tree." I do hope the girls learn from their grandmother,and also learn something from their mother's mistakes.They are young and can enjoy themselves but that doesn't require partying too much and acting like airheads...Yes they do need a "Henry Higgins" to dole out some needed advice.But will the girls listen?

If the behavior of the York girls is so genuinely abhorrent, then it is time for the Queen to do something about it. After all, it is the Queen that they are representing as HRHs. If they are acting inappropriately or seen as shirking their royal roles, it should be up to the Queen to assign them duties and official engagements.

There are many who hold the opinion that either Beatrice or Eugenie are acting in a manner unfit for a royal. The fact remains that, if this is indeed true, someone dropped the ball in instructing them differently. Most of the criticism gets laid at the feet of their commoner, failed royal mother. Doesn't it make more sense to assume that instructing the girls in proper royal behavior should be the responsibility of the royal family?

Perhaps there's a feeling at the Palace that the Yorks aren't ready for any sort of official Royal role. At this point, if that is the official view, I believe it.

You'd think that over all those cups of tea with SuperGran, they'd have picked up something.

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Originally Posted by kimebear

If the behavior of the York girls is so genuinely abhorrent, then it is time for the Queen to do something about it. After all, it is the Queen that they are representing as HRHs. If they are acting inappropriately or seen as shirking their royal roles, it should be up to the Queen to assign them duties and official engagements.

There are many who hold the opinion that either Beatrice or Eugenie are acting in a manner unfit for a royal. The fact remains that, if this is indeed true, someone dropped the ball in instructing them differently. Most of the criticism gets laid at the feet of their commoner, failed royal mother. Doesn't it make more sense to assume that instructing the girls in proper royal behavior should be the responsibility of the royal family?

There are many who hold the opinion that either Beatrice or Eugenie are acting in a manner unfit for a royal. The fact remains that, if this is indeed true, someone dropped the ball in instructing them differently. Most of the criticism gets laid at the feet of their commoner, failed royal mother. Doesn't it make more sense to assume that instructing the girls in proper royal behavior should be the responsibility of the royal family?

They have always lived with their mother and never with the Queen, if they had,I have no doubt they would have turned out differently.
Their mother complained that Prince Andrew was never around, always out playing golf or something else so he may have been absent when any royal instruction should have been given.

Most of the criticism gets laid at the feet of their commoner, failed royal mother. Doesn't it make more sense to assume that instructing the girls in proper royal behavior should be the responsibility of the royal family?

I feel both parents are at fault, not just Sarah and no, IMO, it should not be up to the 'royal family' to teach them how to behave.

Parents are supposed to help their children become independent adults, who take responsibility for their actions. It is possible to be a parent and a friend, but parent must always come first.

They would perhaps have benefited from a governess or a stricter school regime, even a look at some of the pictures of themselves 'in a state' might help. With Mummy & Daddy apparently ignoring the bad behaviour, there is little hope for a change in the near future.

I certainly agree with you 100% Sky! I have often wondered if they ever read or look at the papers with their silly pics of themselves falling out of clubs (and Clothes!). Surely they must read at least Some of the negativism aimed their way. A shame that after all of the critism Sarah has endured over the years she did/does Nothing to help her daughters avoid the same mistakes. As for Andrew...he should be ashamed as well, as he was brought up to be royal from the day he was born! Did he forget everything that he was taught? I should think it would be ingrained in his very being and would be the one teaching his daughters the "Royal' way. Obviously I am wrong in my assumptions... :(

Perhaps there's a feeling at the Palace that the Yorks aren't ready for any sort of official Royal role. At this point, if that is the official view, I believe it.

I don't think the most effective way of getting teenagers to change their behaviour is to ignore it. They are certainly not going to get "ready" for a Royal role if no-one gives them any guidance.

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You'd think that over all those cups of tea with SuperGran, they'd have picked up something.

It's quote possible that they did, and they didn't like it. It is possible they think the royal ways are cold and stifling. It is also possible that over tea SuperGran is just Granny, and as I understand it Granny is known to avoid interfering in her family's personal lives.

__________________"That's it then. Cancel the kitchen scraps for lepers and orphans, no more merciful beheadings, -- and call off Christmas!!!"

I feel both parents are at fault, not just Sarah and no, IMO, it should not be up to the 'royal family' to teach them how to behave.

Parents are supposed to help their children become independent adults, who take responsibility for their actions. It is possible to be a parent and a friend, but parent must always come first.

They would perhaps have benefited from a governess or a stricter school regime, even a look at some of the pictures of themselves 'in a state' might help. With Mummy & Daddy apparently ignoring the bad behaviour, there is little hope for a change in the near future.

All in all I agree to your words. I only fear it is too late for Mummy & Daddy. At this age words go in and out. Unfortunatly Daddy was busy and Mommy wanted to be best friend when there was still time to change the behaviour. If you do not lay out the right behaviour early on, it becomes more difficult as time moves on and once the kidz are 18 it is too late anyway.

I think that the relationship between Eliza and Professor Higgins was left undecided at the end...at least in the movie. But then, I've only seen the movie once; and that was a few years ago.

For a long time I assumed Henry Higgins (and Lord Pickering, while you're at it) were gay. That whole "confirmed bachelor" thing . . . Edwardian term for 'not with the ladies.' But whatever. . .

B&E have been brought up with royal protocol and as members of the BRF all their lives. At their ages they shouldn't need someone to come in and show them how to behave. I think they've been spoiled and indulged since they were very young and they are now continuing to display that sort of behavior. Seems like they somehow feel that their HRH status gives them license to be tacky, obnoxious and, how do you say, it - Common. I def agree, the Apple does not fall far from the Red-headed Tree.