When are games going to become more than just "games"?

When will the day come when one player who does X thing in a game will permanently change the way everyone else plays the same game? When will the day come when players actions will truly matter? When will we see players to truly feel the risk and thrill of their own choices that will permanently define them for who they are? When will we see a game that feels as much as important as real life?

A great game means a more peaceful and safer world. It also means a less polluted world. It also means a great way for individuals to meet someone that truly enjoy spending their time with. It also means less spending $ on other, far more costly hobbies for entertainment. It can also be an educational game, things people can actually learn that would benefit from in real life.

The problem we are facing today is the fact that building games costs $ and they solely depend on the private sector willingness to invest in them. What happens though when the private sector doesn't have the funds to invest, interest or ability to deliver this game? This happens. The state of gaming today as it is.

I see billions upon billions of government funds thrown in things that humanity as a whole does not benefit, from many space to military programs. Only when this game becomes reality the world will see the imminent impact on evolution as a whole for mankind.

I've consistently played games for decades which allowed me to think and solve problems. They helped me from the very first thing which was to understand and write the English language...Today, thx to meeting and interacting with thousands of players over the last 14 years I also know things I would never knew before. Most importantly gaming has helped me to have great social skills.

So, when are games going to become more than just "games"? When will the world become more involved in building, investing in them? What will it take from each individual gamer to push toward this goal? Well, I can think of few things, but anyways...I said enough for now.

Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 ATM.

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

Originally posted by KopogeroWhen will the day come when one player who does X thing in a game will permanently change the way everyone else plays the same game? When will the day come when players actions will truly matter?

We need to get you trying some of the non-EQ/WOW MMOs. You can already do that in quite a few, and have been able to for over a decade.

There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

Originally posted by GestankfaustAnd sorry...any example that would be posted would fall short of what the OP posted IMO.

"When will the day come when one player who does X thing in a game will permanently change the way everyone else plays the same game? When will the day come when players actions will truly matter? "

Some things that hit on at least those three:

Lawmaking in A Tale in the Desert

Bagball and the bagball arena in Ultima Online

Trade hubs in EVE

Barter systems (motes/keys as base units) in Asheron's Call

You could easily make a list of dozens of examples of emergent gameplay where the players did brought something to the game that either became canon or got coded into the game.

There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

"When will we see a game that feels as much as important as real life?"

NEVER.

That's why they called games and sould stay as that. Because they're just games, nice distractions that we use to escape from real life every now and then to have some fun. We don't need any more drama in our gaming experience. We allready have plenty of that on our everyday lifes.

Originally posted by KopogeroWhen will the day come when one player who does X thing in a game will permanently change the way everyone else plays the same game? When will the day come when players actions will truly matter? When will we see players to truly feel the risk and thrill of their own choices that will permanently define them for who they are? When will we see a game that feels as much as important as real life?A great game means a more peaceful and safer world. It also means a less polluted world. It also means a great way for individuals to meet someone that truly enjoy spending their time with. It also means less spending $ on other, far more costly hobbies for entertainment. It can also be an educational game, things people can actually learn that would benefit from in real life.

The answer is: hopefully never. The moment we start valuing games more than going to work or interacting with our families, that's when society breaks. Getting a game to where it's more appealing that real life, and at the same time culturally supporting that, is dangerous.

But going back to the first questions, which are more reasonable, the answer is: it's not likely to happen in general. You have Second Life, where what people do does matter to others. The world is what it is because players made it that way. Any truly sandbox game would have that. On the other hand, in a fully sandbox game players actions don't provide "risk and thrill" in the way that a game that has built-in conflict can have. In any game that players are expected to be heroes and fight enemies, there must be a constant state of strife, which is largely unaffected by players. Sure, it could be made to tilt in various directions depending on player actions, but it still needs to remain forever unresolved. In such a scheme nobody's actions truly matter.

Another problem, besides the given social ones like valuing games more than RL, is players want to achiev things and players can be jerks. Imagine a multiplayer game where the decisions would really matter and be final. Mobs would be extinct in no time, all woods would be cleared and the whole world would be a mess after a certain time, since all things were final. With every boss killed his/her peoples would be scattered (we are realistic, aren't we) and be hunted down by players. With every year new players would have less to do.

Then there's the catogy of players who will see what can be done, so they start digging wholes, reroute rivers, chopping down woods and see if whole populations of productive lifestock and material giving mobs can be killed. Given a certain playerbase the number of poeple interrested in possibilities will be big enough to have impact and change the game world's surface. Always remember: What can be done, will be done!

You would need to have systems in place that negate player choices, thus limit player freedom and the impact of choice, to keep the system intact and have something to do for new players. The most basic system usually in place is respawn. To have mobs to fight and skin they respawn, so the world wont be devoid of life. Respawn means to cancel a player's choice, since you killed that mob and it returns. This is just the most basic case.

Originally posted by GestankfaustOriginally posted by LoktofeitOriginally posted by GestankfaustAnd sorry...any example that would be posted would fall short of what the OP posted IMO.

"When will the day come when one player who does X thing in a game will permanently change the way everyone else plays the same game? When will the day come when players actions will truly matter? "

Some things that hit on at least those three:

Lawmaking in A Tale in the Desert

Bagball and the bagball arena in Ultima Online

Trade hubs in EVE

Barter systems (motes/keys as base units) in Asheron's Call

You could easily make a list of dozens of examples of emergent gameplay where the players did brought something to the game that either became canon or got coded into the game.

I thought the OP had grander ideas than this...maybe I read it wrong. These examples don't seem (and weren't when I played them) so "World Changing".

Well, then we go back to the question that someone asked before:

"when players actually want all those things instead of playing just some fun games?"

There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

Avalon (www.avalon-rpg.com) is founded on the basis that player actions matter. It's fully possible for the players to affect the game world in ways that redefine the gameplay of others and re-shape the world itself. Legion warfare plays a big part in this - these campaigns can last months or even years - and Springdale, our fourth city was completely destroyed after Thakria (another city, all led by players) used their army to invade and defeat the enemy army and wipe it from the map. In its place, the losers pooled all of their resources and desperately begged for an armistice and peace treaty to be allowed to rebuild a new city in its ashes.

The result: Silverfalls was born with player-driven government and autonomy but also bound by the iron fist treaty of the Thakrian military, limiting its actions and directing its growth potential for years to come.

Never will they become more than just a game.Well perhaps in another 100 years we might have full on virtual reality and game world decisions affect real life but maybe even a 100 years is too soon.

We have seen glimpses of it though as of right now,like players buying plots with real life money or selling something for huge amounts in the thousands of dollars with rl money.All we see for VR though is the talk of head sets,that is not going to add a single thing to VR it is only going to add a new perspective on visuals.

We are easily 15 years into MMORPG game design and i have yet to see a single developer create a resemblance of an ECO system and nobody has introduced a realistic factor "aging" into these games either.A very old single player Wizardry game did have a slow aging added to the game but not really significant to notice it.

We can't even get half the developers to understand exactly what XP is SUPPOSE to represent,most think it is just a number that needs to be increased so they add all kinds of stupid ideas to make sure it can be increased.Example ..."Oh i just stepped on a new pixel of land" "I feel like a much more experienced Warrior now" .../sigh.Point is i see a ton of developers that show no thought what so ever towards building a Virtual game,instead they are just code and look like just code.

Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

Later MMORPGs were much better games. They obliterated early MMORPGs in success and popularity.

The market shifted to supply the clear demand for game-centric MMORPGs. Games like GW2 and ESO continue to do pretty well for themselves.

So the answer is that the genre is shifting away from worlds (not towards them.)

The root of that comes from how players enjoy games, and you should read A Theory of Fun (Koster, 2003) if you want to learn about that. Basically: Games have skills to teach us, and we enjoy learning (even if the skill has no relevance to our lives.)

Virtual worlds do provide some entertainment, largely for the same reason (much of the reason players play them is to explore a new thing and gain mastery over it.) However existing offerings have been paled in comparison to game-centric games. It's not that the world is a wholly negative thing -- it does add one more way for players to explore and master things -- it's that world simulation typically comes at a harsh cost in moment-to-moment gameplay (one example being how you might spend your time travel (shallower gameplay) instead of immediately being at your destination engaging in the challenge there (deeper gameplay).)

"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

Originally posted by RedAlert539"When will we see a game that feels as much as important as real life?"NEVER.That's why they called games and sould stay as that. Because they're just games, nice distractions that we use to escape from real life every now and then to have some fun. We don't need any more drama in our gaming experience. We allready have plenty of that on our everyday lifes.

To me, games are just entertainment ... and i certainly won't waste time on one that pretends that it is as important as real life.

Investor puts money in a GAME publisher to finance a GAME, publisher contracts a developer to build a GAME, developer builds a GAME to publisher's priorities, publisher releases game to the public using GAME marketing, publisher operates the GAME.

And there's a reason to be surprised that the GAME is a GAME?

That doesn't make sense to me.

Isn't the real question, When will the MMO framework be used for more than gaming, for example: shopping, communications, education, etc?

Or am I missing the point (which I do frequently) ???

Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.

Maybe not the type of game OP might have in mind but to be honost for me it's Star Wars Galaxies that gave me that feel it was more then just a game. Unfortunaly it got bombed by those people who wanted excactly that...a GAME, it had to be more Star Wars which for me translated into "we need the game to tell us what to do"

So I doubt apart from some indie games we will see a high budget AAA MMORPG, because I believe the majority "needs" more game instead of relying on themselfs or even other players ingame. Notrhing wrong with that because they all enjoy themself and that's what matter. Only little problem is those of us wanting more world then game are in the minority.

Voxel based MMORPG's go to far for me but SWG had the perfect balance for me in how to craft/create/develop. Thats mainly that when I create I am to much like real life a perfectionist, I learned my lesson with Planet Explorer hehe. Spend weeks on a creating a vehicle but each time I wasn't satisfied with it's outcome and kept spending more time without actually "playing" the game besides it's building/creation part.