I didn't realise the extent of Dan Vettori's influence on the picks for RCB.He seems to have loaded the squad with Kiwi players.Tbh, I wouldn't mind that at all, if it didn't upset the balance of the squad.

Now they have Corey Anderson (still gingerly and rusty), CDG (who I like a lot, but don't find reliable), B Mac (past it, just living on past reputation), Southee (not a death bowler, more a swing bowler)....so what was the thinking behind this?

I agree that Woakes, while he might not be in the Russell league, needs to be given an opportunity to throw his bat around. He did it effectively in ODIs recently. His potential is being curtailed - and that, in a side that is screaming for runs beyond No.5.

Washington Sundar is a waste of space - as is Sarfaraz Khan.Why is it that the domestic players RCB picks up, paying big bucks for, end up as non-performers?

And MI picks up unheard-of names like Markande - and they immediately start delivering?Same happened with Bumrah a few years ago, and with Krunal Pandya.

For all my dislike of MI (that comes mainly cos of Mumbai's domination in cricket for as long as I can remember), I have to honestly admit they do thorough homework before each auction. So they end up with a very good squad.

Cricbuzz:"RCB will have to be careful now, having lost three out of four games. They have a task on their hand, but they don't have to look far for inspiration with the likes of VK, AB, Baz in the side."

Paddles wrote:Ugh, Raja, can we have the live match thread separate from the IPL discussion thread.

During match discussion will lose general talking points of interest after someone has taken a wicket or scored a 50.

If you want 2 threads instead of 3, how about putting the predicitons into the live match thread?

The predictions needs to be a separate thread.

Reason I merged the other two threads was that in the live match thread too, we discuss more than just the match, so there'd be a spillover between content of both threads. It's not that strict a delineation.

But if others too feel that we should have two, will go with that opinion.

I didn't realise the extent of Dan Vettori's influence on the picks for RCB.He seems to have loaded the squad with Kiwi players.Tbh, I wouldn't mind that at all, if it didn't upset the balance of the squad.

Now they have Corey Anderson (still gingerly and rusty), CDG (who I like a lot, but don't find reliable), B Mac (past it, just living on past reputation), Southee (not a death bowler, more a swing bowler)....so what was the thinking behind this?

I agree that Woakes, while he might not be in the Russell league, needs to be given an opportunity to throw his bat around. He did it effectively in ODIs recently. His potential is being curtailed - and that, in a side that is screaming for runs beyond No.5.

Washington Sundar is a waste of space - as is Sarfaraz Khan.Why is it that the domestic players RCB picks up, paying big bucks for, end up as non-performers?

I don't think RCB was well managed. I don't know how much is Dan's doing. But it will be his head on the chopping block at the end of the day and not Kohli's. Someone has brought Kirsten into help DV, so someone else clearly thinks there is room for Kirsten's involvement to improve the situation.

The large Kiwi contingent is possible fuel for criticism by discontent RCB fans should RCB keep losing. And there are a lot of limitations with the players that he has brought in that don't fill many holes when combined with the rest of the squad. If you analyse teams in three areas, top order, middle order, bowling unit, RCB so far has a weak middle, lacks a death bowler, and the top order while looking impressive with VK and ABDV alone, QDK as a keeper while talented, maybe isn't so deserving of being picked ahead of a talented Indian Keeper bat, of which there are plenty, and BMac, well you said, "past it and on reputation".

SRH - used to be a strong top order with Warner, Shikar, KW or Moises, Karthik, weak middle but unlike RCB - strong bowling. Now Moody has kept the top order strength (despite losing Warner he had KW already as a replacement), replaced Karthik for Saha, brought in Yusuf Pathan to add punch into the middle order and also brought in Shakib and Nabi (last year) to keep the bowling strong, but strengthen middle order, which could be further strengthened by Brathwaite, and kept an excellent bowling unit.

If they had Warner this year still, they would be a stronger and better team than they were in 2016 when they won it, despite losing the Fizz, who they benched last year for R Khan with great success. To me, SRH's biggest limitation is KW instead of Warner (or buying Root). That is why I am so keen on watching SRH and KW succeed and develop his t20 game. And lets not forget, Moody bought KW before Warner got suspended and KW would have been expecting more bench time like the past 2 years. So he really put together a strong squad with the salary cap as everyone esle, with Warner on maximum dollars. SRH may not win it this year, but if they had Warner still, I would have given them the shortest odds if I were a bookie as the start of the tournament.

Last edited by Paddles on Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:45 am, edited 7 times in total.

"Your inclination to assume and contradict is typical of Narcissism which is nothing about being pretty like the Narcissus fable."

Paddles wrote:Ugh, Raja, can we have the live match thread separate from the IPL discussion thread.

During match discussion will lose general talking points of interest after someone has taken a wicket or scored a 50.

If you want 2 threads instead of 3, how about putting the predicitons into the live match thread?

The predictions needs to be a separate thread.

Reason I merged the other two threads was that in the live match thread too, we discuss more than just the match, so there'd be a spillover between content of both threads. It's not that strict a delineation.

But if others too feel that we should have two, will go with that opinion.

I've no problem either way.

I'd prefer two as well as the prediction thread that you want seperate. The live match thread is often separate from general discussion as wickets and runs in a game, or silly things commentators say, will cloud the discussion over more general issues not necessarily related to the current match. That is why we have typically have a live match thread, and a general discussion thread for many countries and this tournament. But I do like the general discussion thread being in the "live" section of the forum as against where general threads often go as this is a live tournament in progress.

Last edited by Paddles on Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

"Your inclination to assume and contradict is typical of Narcissism which is nothing about being pretty like the Narcissus fable."

It is quite uncanny , but the philosophy of the owners rubs on the employees and stays that way despite the personnel getting changed. So it never surprises me that RCB lose more than they win no matter who plays for them.

DD are another team similar to RCB.

No wonder then that these are the two teams that have never won IPL and they have mostly remained at the bottom of the table years after years.

squarecut wrote:It is quite uncanny , but the philosophy of the owners rubs on the employees and stays that way despite the personnel getting changed. So it never surprises me that RCB lose more than they win no matter who plays for them.

DD are another team similar to RCB.

No wonder then that these are the two teams that have never won IPL and they have mostly remained at the bottom of the table years after years.

It isn't that uncanny if the desires of the owner are pressured onto the coaches who pick the squad members.

I am unaware of the RCB and DD owners, or what their philosophies are.

But lets say that DD is owned by a penny pincher or someone who wants to make a profit or not lose a lot of money from owning an IPL franchise. So he instructs the coach and management to penny pinch on player salaries. Well in a salary cap environment, they may well be under, or end up with a bigger squad, say the max 25 instead of the min 18, but they havn't bought the best players for a team from all players available to pick from, assuming all players are rated equally by the various franchises.

Lets say RCB is owned by a flashy person who wants to rub shoulders with the biggest superstars of cricket. So the owner instructs that he was the 2 biggest names in t20 world cricket plus the biggest name in Indian cricket. Again, in a salary cap environment, that does not leave a lot of coin to form the rest of the squad with as against the various franchises.

Lets say SRH is someone who doesn't care about fancy player names, just results. So instead of penny pinching, the coach buys reserve players in the class of KW, Brathwaite and Nabi, leaving room to strengthen the team in case of injury or suspension. The team doesn't care about cricket celebrity, so the biggest name the team has BK or Dhawan, a far cry from the lofty heights of RCB's Indian king of cricket VIrat Kohli or the Indian prince of limited overs in MI's Rohit Sharma. No matter how good BK and Dhawan are.

So where you suspect that the owner's personal philosophy is visible in the team, chances are that the owner is overplaying their hand with the team management of which team members to pick and how the team should play. Or a coach is simply executing the owner's expected vision for the team according to the philosophy the owner likely expressed as wishes.

It is a commonly complained about problem in USA sports. Where many owners like being celebrity, and the way to do that is often to sign the next big thing that is getting all the media attention before the drafts, or a current superstar but at overs or losing too many good players for that superstar leaving the rest of the team more weakened. Alternatively, it is because the franchise is running at a loss or below expected profits, and the owner did not buy a sports franchise to lose money and so instructs the team owners to spend less. The last is totally understandable for General Managers* and Coaches in a rational environment, whether it may be hard for the fans to accept. While the former may be rational for the owner and not just an ego trip as he may side ventures that benefit from his increased standing in the community that comes with celebrity, it is the same problem. Not all team management is getting interefence on how to do their jobs from the owners to the same degree.

*In many USA sports, there is a General Manager who oversees squad recruitment and handles the signing and re-signing, as well as trading and firing.

The coach is the person who trains the team and decides the plays, and when to execute them. The GM gives the team of players to the coach to coach with a general overview of the style he wants the team to play based on the player attributes of those that he has picked. Obviously the coach should try and work hand in hand, but the GM decides who will and will not play for the club. The coach ultimately answers to the GM, who answers to the owner. In some ways this makes sense to split the roles even if doubling the salary cost, given the GM's responsibility is to know who the players are in his league, and the levels below like College and minor leagues, (obviously he has scouts to help in the lower levels) so to know who to buy. The coach has to worry about what his own players are doing, and their next opposition, which would keep him busy enough without worrying what the rest of the league and and the levels below are doing.

And sometimes of course the most important player on the field for the team often has too much sway over the coaches and management. And may talk to the owners giveing them details about what players and style he wants the team to execute or he will find a new club. Or not make himself as available to and for the owner.

Wherever social structures are, there is politics. Mankind by nature is a political animal. And those that hold sway, typically get their way. It is more typically top down on the Owner >GM>Coach>Player, but rare and high in demand talent be they players, coaches, or GM can sometimes push sway from lower down to up.

"Your inclination to assume and contradict is typical of Narcissism which is nothing about being pretty like the Narcissus fable."

squarecut wrote:It is quite uncanny , but the philosophy of the owners rubs on the employees and stays that way despite the personnel getting changed. So it never surprises me that RCB lose more than they win no matter who plays for them.

DD are another team similar to RCB.

No wonder then that these are the two teams that have never won IPL and they have mostly remained at the bottom of the table years after years.

It isn't that uncanny if the desires of the owner are pressured onto the coaches who pick the squad members.

I am unaware of the RCB and DD owners, or what their philosophies are.

Lets say RCB is owned by a flashy person who wants to rub shoulders with the biggest superstars of cricket. So the owner instructs that he was the 2 biggest names in t20 world cricket plus the biggest name in Indian cricket. Again, in a salary cap environment, that does not leave a lot of coin to form the rest of the squad with as against the various franchises.

Considering that you are unaware of the owners, you have hit the nail bang on target.

RCB is owned by a person who cannot keep his finances in order. His airline has been grounded because that was running in loss (while other private airlines of India are making profits). He failed to repay his loans taken from Indian banks and he is now a fugitive from Indian law.

Paddles wrote:It isn't that uncanny if the desires of the owner are pressured onto the coaches who pick the squad members.

I am unaware of the RCB and DD owners, or what their philosophies are.

Lets say RCB is owned by a flashy person who wants to rub shoulders with the biggest superstars of cricket. So the owner instructs that he was the 2 biggest names in t20 world cricket plus the biggest name in Indian cricket. Again, in a salary cap environment, that does not leave a lot of coin to form the rest of the squad with as against the various franchises.

Considering that you are unaware of the owners, you have hit the nail bang on target.

Indian Premier League founder Lalit Modi predicts players in cricket's wealthiest league will soon be earning more than $1m per match and that it could expand into a four-day test format.

The London-based Modi gave an exclusive interview to The Telegraph that had some chilling views for the game's traditional hierarchy.

Players are already on multi-million dollar IPL deals for brief 14 match seasons in the T20 competition.The focus of the India cricket fans has shifted from traditional formats ton the IPL.

The focus of the India cricket fans has shifted from traditional formats ton the IPL.

But Modi believes if the IPL's US$12m (NZ$16.4m) salary cap is relaxed, a bidding war for talent will see the best players move into the top earners in world sport.

Sunrisers captain Kane Williamson of New Zealand has become a key player in the Indian Premier League.

With test and one-day loyalties already being tested, the mega-money in an independent league would have huge ramifications for the International Cricket Council and national bodies.

"The IPL is here to stay. It will be the dominant sporting league in the world. We have one and a half billion people in India that are dedicated to the game of cricket," Modi told The Telgraph.

"The income levels of the Indian population are rising, you will see international and domestic brands wanting to target the Indian consumer. Where are they going to go to do that? They are going to go to only one product, the IPL. Why? Because it gives consistent ratings, it delivers, it has a great fan base and nothing is better than the IPL for advertisers because they get value for money. If that happens then the IPL will overtake the NFLs of this world.

"Going forward you will see an IPL match grossing not less than $200m a day in terms of revenue, each match. If you have a season of 60 matches the value will be billions. It would have been reached already if there had not been infighting in the BCCI [Indian board] but it will get there eventually.Ad Feedback

"Remember the BCCI does not pay for players. The IPL council does not pay for players. It is the owners that pay for the players' purse. What happens if the IPL loosens that purse and gets rid of the salary cap making it a free market? It is going to go like Premier League football. The salaries will be out of whack. You will see players making $1-$2m a game. It will happen sooner rather than later. That will change players' psyche and loyalty.

"At the end of the day it is great for the players. They will make a hell of a lot of money. If you are a good cricketer in the world you can rest assured you will be picked up by the IPL. If you are good you will make millions. If you are even second-rate you will be picked up. It will become a great sport for them.

"The percentage of the overall income for a player annually will be 80-90 percent from the IPL. In a free market the person with the deepest pockets will win. The players will gravitate towards who pays the biggest salary. Boards will have to live with that fact. It will be unfortunate for them but it will be a bonanza for players."

Modi believes international cricket is becoming increasingly irrelevant, particularly to the Indian audience.

"It is of zero value to the Indian fan. First it was the Indian team then everything else. Now it is the IPL first, then everything else. Tomorrow you will see bilateral cricket disappear. Big series will happen once every three or four years like the World Cup," he told The Telegraph.

"The ICC will become an irrelevant body. It will be full of fat lugs who have no power. They can scream and shout now and in the future they will threaten to throw India out if they try to expand the IPL but India has the power to stand on its own feet. It does not need anybody. They have a domestic league that it is going to be 20-times the size of international cricket.

"At one time international cricket was the bread and butter of the Indian board. You will see it dwindle down to a single digit in terms of revenue, less than 10 percent will be from ICC and international events. I guarantee that. IPL will be more than 90 percent of business for BCCI going forward. No other board will be able to compete with that because they do not have the domestic market. They have the players but not the domestic market. That is the key, your domestic market."

Modi felt a window for test cricket and a world test championship could survive if all nations got together and made it a proper tournament. But it had to be a championship.

Modi also had some advice for the English scene as they look to revamp their domestic Twenty20 league. He said they ahd to follow the IPL formula rather than that of Australia's Big Bash and private ownership was a key to that.

"If they do not have teams owned by private owners they are finished. If it is going to be owned by the board and the counties it will not work," he said.

"You have got to have the money from the owners. If you have ten billionaires sitting at a table who all have big egos, want to win and the best players, they will pay for it. Then you compete with IPL.

"If they copy the Big Bash with teams owned by the board then it will always remain a small player.

"The Big Bash is a fly to be swatted on the wall compared to IPL. Its revenue is negligible to the IPL. ECB will be the same. It will make a little bit of noise but when it comes to players the big money will be in India. Boards relying on TV revenue is not enough, they have to have private investors."

This guy talks a lot of nonsense.

Firstly, what the IPL and BBL have shown us is that fans will watch their domestic with a few international imports even if they're not teams consisting of the best international cricketers. You don't actually need the best cricketers, because the tournament rules have already dictated that the best will not play. Heck, we'll even watch former international cricketers as the stars.This is called parochial support of regional based teams. The IPL doesn't even permit Pakistani players. The BBL doesn't even have the local test team players playing most of the summer and the ODI season clashes with the finals rounds and finals of the BBL.

Secondly, in a salary cap environment, private ownership or Board ownership of the franchises, does not effect player salary levels, unless someone is cheating the salary cap.

Thirdly, boards may rely on tv revenue to pay salaries, if they need to throw their own money into it, it is a business that is losing money. Why do we need all the franchises losing money to pay most wealthy players even more that what they'll play for already?

Fourthly, and this is what Modi does not seem to understand, he gets that the IPL is for Indians, but he doesn't get that the BBL is for Australians and the EWCB T20 comp will be for Brits. Like the IPL, it will be successful with a lot of local players, and many international superstars appear each year in county cricket in one form or another. Admittedly fewer BCCI players than what Safrica, Australia, NZ, WI, Pak, et al send each year. And you know what, Indian Pay tv will still buy it.

Fifthly, and someone with a business degree should realise this, the very differences of the market in that India has no competition to cricket, but the UK has competition to cricket in rugby league, tennis, and golf (as well as football starting up beofre the end of summer), is more than enough reason to not assume the what worked in India will work in the UK, especially as Australia has competition to cricket in tennis and football.

Sixthy, if the Boards owns the teams and get them up and running like the BBL has, it can then subsequently sell the teams for much more money. Perhaps Modi wants to distract people from the fact he did not think of that in 2007 when he took the ICL idea and made the IPL for BCCI.

Seventhly, the best players in the world do not even play in the EPL. They typically play for European glammour clubs like Barcelona and Real Madrid in La Liga but further leagues such as the Italian or German leagues too. So it is possible to have the highest earning sports league, without the best players. And unlike those leagues, in t20, people may play in many leagues.

Eigthly, the BBL is not in competition with the IPL. The IPL is in April and May in India and the BBL is in Dec and Jan in Australia. If the EWCB schedules outside April and May, it won't be either.

I suspect that if the IPL grows to NBA or NHL sporting dominance size, it will either still restrict foreign players allowing cricket to continue on outside of it globally missing its stars. Or it could unrestrict the foreign players, which will decrease the local Indian fan enjoyment and make it more appealing to the global audience. Presumably then global cricket carries on much like global basketball does now with leagues and domestic teams in many countries, despite there being only one premier 'national' league in the world - and Indian cricket fans will still want to see India play in at least the World Cups which means international cricket involving India will continue and the international global game, with or without India playing tests, still has funding.

The problem revealed by the businessman Modi, is he sees the cricket countries in competition with each other for the cricket viewer revenue. While this is a commercial reality that Boards need revenue to sustain, it overlooks the facts that unlike suppliers of products of services, a monopoly on international cricket is impossible for anyone country to achieve, there has to be an opposition. Now Modi may reply, that a country may have a monopoly on domestic cricket, and that is true, but then it has the lost its international flavour. He may reply that the IPL could be like NBA, which has a virtual monopoly on the best basketball players. And this is true. But the NBA does not need to restrict import players as so many are already American. The IPL is different, India does not prevelently supply the best cricketers in the world as against England, Safrica, Australia let alone combied with what NZ, SL, WI, Pak, and AFG produce. So it really is not as cut and dried as he may think.

Finally, the BCCI is not a corporation. It is a charity. It's responsibilities is for spreading and advancing cricket in India. There are no shareholders who want a return on investment. This negates their need to return profits at the cost of want theIndian cricket fan wants. Ultimately, it isn't the size of the Indian cricket market that matters like Modhi believes, it is what does the Indian cricket fan want. And I suspect, they still want to see India playing England and Australia, fairly often much more so than a 4 day game, 6 month championship of domestic cricketers with some imports, with scheduling that will no doubt mean that not all games are able to be televised. Seriously Modi. Cricket is a sport at which India is world class at and source of Indian Pride, and unlike the USA with its North American centralised sports platform, which unlike India has the Olympic dominance to bring sporting unity to the country for sportsfans (this dominance is paid for by the College tv broadcasts of the North American sports as the College students are not allowed to be paid so the money funds Olympic and individual sports through scholarships- how ironic!)

The real issue that Modi should be claiming, is what is preventing the Indian fans from wanting more IPL rounds and continuing into June or July. And the answer is nothing. If the fans want it, there is no way to stop it. And it may mean that South Africa when touring England are missing ABDV, or that NZ when touring England are missing KW. Alternatively, the IPL may start earlier in February and March, which would have an impact on the quality of local teams in Safrica in NZ for their international summers. But they still have November, Decemeber and January. The T20 leagues will take some of the very best players out of the international game as salaries increase. But this is not new for cricket, county cricket has been doing that to NZ and SA forever.

So the biggest and most immeadiate problem is if and when to schedule IPL round expansion, but I think that the BCCI and the ICC will work together on this to ensure the least encroachment into the international game. And Modi overlooks that the BCCI is still susceptible to a Kerry Packer type revolution to cash in on the Indian fan base. American sports history is littered with dual and rival sports leagues.

Last edited by Paddles on Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:06 am, edited 3 times in total.

"Your inclination to assume and contradict is typical of Narcissism which is nothing about being pretty like the Narcissus fable."

Paddles wrote:Cricket is a sport at which India is world class at and source of Indian Pride, and unlike the USA with its North American centralised sports platform, which unlike India has the Olympic dominance to bring sporting unity to the country for sportsfans (this dominance is paid for by the College tv broadcasts of the North American sports as the College students are not allowed to be paid so the money funds Olympic and individual sports through scholarships- how ironic!)

I am hoping that something like this will happen in India as well and that may happen ten years from now.

Paddles wrote:Cricket is a sport at which India is world class at and source of Indian Pride, and unlike the USA with its North American centralised sports platform, which unlike India has the Olympic dominance to bring sporting unity to the country for sportsfans (this dominance is paid for by the College tv broadcasts of the North American sports as the College students are not allowed to be paid so the money funds Olympic and individual sports through scholarships- how ironic!)

I am hoping that something like this will happen in India as well and that may happen ten years from now.

I think you will be waiting a lot longer than ten years. With the physical demands of cricket being much less than Gridiron, Baseball and even Basketball (though many leave College early, or try to skip College and goto straight to the pro's if so skilled and physically developed enough already) the likes of Tendulkar became international and professional cricketers at 16, Rashid Khan at 17, there is no College gap of 18 to 22 year olds building their bodies up to the pro level so as to excel. Even fast bowlers burst on the international scene in their teenage years if good enough.

Cricket isn't a power game requiring intense muscular development so as to excel. While it certainly benefits t20 6 hitters like Dre Russ, there is still a lot more room for hand eye coordination, skill/finesse and twitch fibres.

Further remember, US sporting rivalry started with Colleges, and the professional leagues followed later when someone realised that 22 was too young for sports fans to stop wanting to watch a Heisman trophy winner playing the game.

"Your inclination to assume and contradict is typical of Narcissism which is nothing about being pretty like the Narcissus fable."

They are at different times of the year (or can be suitably tweaked to be) - and while each one strives to be the tournament of pride for a tennis player (to attract the best talent) - they don't compete so much with each other, as with other sports that clash in the same time-frame. Or, going beyond even sport, with other entertainment options that aim for the same viewer dollar.

A tennis player can choose to take part in whichever tennis tournament he wants to (if he qualifies, of course). Much like a much-sought-after T20 player would choose which T20 leagues he'd like to play in.

If each league can create its own unique ecosystem (like French Open = clay, Wimbledon = grass, and so on), you could have cricketers judged on how they performed in different leagues.

If a player scores most runs in each of every league in a particular 12-month period (so orange cap in all (or whatever colour cap)), he could be said to have won the cricket league Grand Slam.

That way players will be motivated to play in all leagues - and excel in all.

This doesn't mean playing for one's country will not happen.

Even in tennis, you have the Davis Cup. Yes, top players sometimes give it the miss - but it need not be so. (I happen to think the Davis Cup is very poorly marketed).

The reason I'm comparing cricket leagues with Grand Slams and not with football leagues (like EPL) is purely duration.

You can have a cricket league (like the IPL) wrapped up in 45 days. A football league (mainly cos of sheer number of teams) takes many months.

On the other hand, if cricket leagues also got bigger in terms of teams and duration, resembling football leagues, the comparison would make more sense.

They are at different times of the year (or can be suitably tweaked to be) - and while each one strives to be the tournament of pride for a tennis player (to attract the best talent) - they don't compete so much with each other, as with other sports that clash in the same time-frame. Or, going beyond even sport, with other entertainment options that aim for the same viewer dollar.

100% agree as observed in my previous post at point 8.

raja wrote:A tennis player can choose to take part in whichever tennis tournament he wants to (if he qualifies, of course). Much like a much-sought-after T20 player would choose which T20 leagues he'd like to play in.

If each league can create its own unique ecosystem (like French Open = clay, Wimbledon = grass, and so on), you could have cricketers judged on how they performed in different leagues.

If a player scores most runs in each of every league in a particular 12-month period (so orange cap in all (or whatever colour cap)), he could be said to have won the cricket league Grand Slam.

That way players will be motivated to play in all leagues - and excel in all.

This doesn't mean playing for one's country will not happen.

Even in tennis, you have the Davis Cup. Yes, top players sometimes give it the miss - but it need not be so. (I happen to think the Davis Cup is very poorly marketed).

The reason I'm comparing cricket leagues with Grand Slams and not with football leagues (like EPL) is purely duration.

You can have a cricket league (like the IPL) wrapped up in 45 days. A football league (mainly cos of sheer number of teams) takes many months.

On the other hand, if cricket leagues also got bigger in terms of teams and duration, resembling football leagues, the comparison would make more sense.

But the principle is the same.

There is one major difference between tennis and T20 leagues, and that is the 7 to 9 forced local player rules at the various leagues. I am not sure the ICL had any such restriction at all. This makes the current t20 league format deliberately designed to cater for the local region where hosted. Whereas a good French tennis player may not be very good on clay or a Brit not good on grass.

The ATP is the same people at the tournaments going around the world. While some may say the same of DJ Bravo, BMac and Dre Russ, the foreign player quotas are totally different to the ATP, where only the small tournaments have a few spots for wildcards that significantly favours locals.

Had the ICL format been replicated globally of no player quotas if indeed it was so, then your analogy is more apt. But it would have been a better way of safe guarding rival leagues ever being established. At the end of the day, regional parochialism in a domestic competition is the underpinnings of the IPL. And foreign tournaments do not share this between them.

When I watch the IPL, I am more keen on seeing my Kiwi players do well more than anything else.

"Your inclination to assume and contradict is typical of Narcissism which is nothing about being pretty like the Narcissus fable."

squarecut wrote:I am hoping that something like this will happen in India as well and that may happen ten years from now.

I think you will be waiting a lot longer than ten years.

No, I did not mean that I am hoping Indians to play the same games as Americans. India too have games that are of immense interest in India and some other countries. I hope their league picks up. For instance, Kabaddi is a native game of India and neighboring countries. It is an extremely interesting game (somewhat similar to Rugby, but without any ball). Starsports, the channel that shows IPL has been promoting a PKL (premier Kabaddi league) for the last three years. This is getting extremely popular. We are in our fifth season and the sixth season will begin in june just after IPL is over. We have 12 teams there. Though most players are Indians (India is the strongest country in Kabaddi), we also have players from Iran (the second or third strongest Kabaddi playing nation), Bangladesh, Korea (surprise surprise) etc. Pakistan too is a strong kabaddi playing nation but like in IPL, they have been isolated from PKL as well.

I have become a convert of PKL. My wife is a bigger convert.

A kabaddi match lasts 40 minutes and two matches get played every evening which is just ideal watching for someone watching TV in primetime. PKL is already the second most popular sporting event on Indian TV behind IPL, and it will get bigger. Kabaddi players are becoming stars among Indians. PKL is already being telecast in some one hundred odd countries. With the kind of population that India has, I am quite sure that PKL will become a hugely popular sporting event and kabaddi may well become a global sport. It is already played in Asian games.

Paddles wrote:I think you will be waiting a lot longer than ten years.

No, I did not mean that I am hoping Indians to play the same games as Americans.

I didn't think you did, but this reply made me chuckle. Thanks. I thought you meant cricket.

I can see how Kabbaddi with its physical requirements would be a sport which requires physical development through college years so as to get to the pro level and would be an option if Indians are keen on watching the younger generation participate on some regional or alma mater basis on tv for college funding of participants in all Olympic sports and get the vital funding for the sportspeople's training and development that medals all too often require in this day and age.

You made your point well. Excellent post.

But it is nothing like rugby. It is closer to wrestling. Real wrestling, not the WWE type version.

"Your inclination to assume and contradict is typical of Narcissism which is nothing about being pretty like the Narcissus fable."

Was just looking at the RCB squad and I find a guy called Pavan Deshpande in there.He's a left-handed batsman, and has an SR of 145 in his 11-match T20 career so far.Why not give him a try?Maybe in place of Sarfaraz, if not someone else?

That he's a left-hander, in a side loade with right-handed batsmen, might make just that small difference.I want to see more players get chances - not just for RCB but even otherwise.Maybe give Aniket Chaudhary a chance too.I remember he had a blow-hot-blow-cold season last year.Got taken for a few in some games, but did ok in others.

lol. my reply is for raja. but paddles has an answer for everything. T20 and county cricket were two different animals from two different planets. who cares about county cricket ? the buzz for IPL is 10 times greater. duh!

Going South wrote:lol. my reply is for raja. but paddles has an answer for everything. T20 and county cricket were two different animals from two different planets. who cares about county cricket ? the buzz for IPL is 10 times greater. duh!

Who cares about county cricket? British cricket fans.

Indian cricket only ten times the buzz? The cricket fan population in India is safely more than 10 times that if Britain. There's over a billion people in India where football and rugby and rugby league are irrelevant. Not so in Britain.

Put simply - Indians care about IPL.

Brits care about EPL. Then rugby and cricket.

The peculair thing about former British colonies all over the world, is that we more readily adopted the sports of their wealthy, the and ones they invented - their rugby* and cricket. NZ celebrates when we beat England in rugby. Australia and India when they beat them in cricket. And so many colonials forget that these are the sports of their wealthy privately educated people. The sport of Britain, the mainstream, their true national sport, isn't one they invented, but soccer, and shared by their neighbours and most of the world; and most Brits care far more about beating Germany in the football, and don't follow rugby nor cricket that much. I am sure the quality of the EPL is a point of English pride when compared to rival leagues in Europe that it competes for global playing talent with as the seasons overlap.

I get Indians not quite understanding this. Just as I get many of my fellow Kiwis not quite understanding that Australia cares less about rugby union than it does AFL or rugby league.

It is like colonials are undertaking a sports war with Britain, that most Brits don't share, let alone even know about, let alone give two hoots about. The West Indies, former colonies, did this in cricket previously also.

My father is English, born and raised there, even he after all his years in NZ does not quite understand the colonial obsession wtih sports and is typical with private school UK persons and thust this elite sports rivalry isn't one shared as widely in Britain. And yet we colonials persist. Even if this rivalry that we colonails share against England in sports is not shared back.

It is like former colonials like Australians in the Ashes, or Indians like Modi with T20 cricket, or NZ'ers with rugby, are waging a sporting war with English people, that most English people have no idea about nor care a less about.

For the record, NZ voted to keep the Union Jack on its flag via referendum, and is far less likely to bcome a republlic like India before Australia is. NZ still uses and follows the Queen's honours list. But this is readily explained in that India and Australia share a more coercive colonial history that NZ does not.

Put simply, if you want to compete and piss the most Brits off via sport, beat them in football. Retaining the best cricket or rugby players in the world, does not affect them in the least. Heck, they don't even the best football players in the EPL, which is still the highest valued football league in the world.

*The professional split between amateur and professional that was also observed in county cricket within teams manifested itself in rugby to professional rugby league also which Australia adopted far more readily than NZ. Australia ended up with 15 full time professional rugby league clubs, NZ one. Whereas in rugby, NZ is the global colossus of the sport more than Brazil is in football.

Last edited by Paddles on Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:06 am, edited 2 times in total.

"Your inclination to assume and contradict is typical of Narcissism which is nothing about being pretty like the Narcissus fable."

There are 2 old T20 pro's who are getting closer to retirement being imposed on them, rather than by them. I suspect both are now in the career downturn, the variable is what the slope of the decline will be.

In fact, in some T20 leagues, they have been teammates.

Brendon McCullum and Chris Gayle.

These guys with Malinga, despite their varying success in all forms of cricket, just scream T20 professionals and perhaps by some been derided as mercenaries.

But this year, RCB let Gayle go, in fact, he was not picked up at all in the Auction, until KXI picked up for his base price (2 cr). BMac was hired by Gayle's former club, RCB for a much healthier price having attracted some bids (3.6cr).

So, who got the better deal? Which player will best turn back the clock, and rain down sixes and get their teams off to good starts?

I think it may well be KXI's Gayle.

Gayle 2.

Bmac 0.

Heard it here first folks.

"Your inclination to assume and contradict is typical of Narcissism which is nothing about being pretty like the Narcissus fable."

Going South wrote:lol. my reply is for raja. but paddles has an answer for everything. T20 and county cricket were two different animals from two different planets. who cares about county cricket ? the buzz for IPL is 10 times greater. duh!

County cricket 4 day game Bonanza was the prime reasons which was Gone from home page

errr. you logic on colonials aka india love to beat england is flawed. today Indians give importance to win Australians than the english. next spot goes to winning over pakistanis. after that they love watch india play bangladesh and bash them. strange but true. there is lot of bad blood and ego hurt with dhoni’s severed head etc stupid stuff that give the tilt. i mean if there are 4 matches on 4 tvs in a tv showroom with indians playing australia, bangladesh, pakistan & england where do you think more crowds be? definitely not with india with england matches. they would be last preference. get it ? that colonial mind set is more with australians and newzealanders but not with indians when it comes to cricket or any sport hence i say your logic is flawed.

Going South wrote:errr. you logic on colonials aka india love to beat england is flawed. today Indians give importance to win Australians than the english. next spot goes to winning over pakistanis. after that they love watch india play bangladesh and bash them. strange but true. there is lot of bad blood and ego hurt with dhoni’s severed head etc stupid stuff that give the tilt. i mean if there are 4 matches on 4 tvs in a tv showroom with indians playing australia, bangladesh, pakistan & england where do you think more crowds be? definitely not with india with england matches. they would be last preference. get it ? that colonial mind set is more with australians and newzealanders but not with indians when it comes to cricket or any sport hence i say your logic is flawed.

Lol. Even if what you say and true and accurate, (and that rating 4th is exclusive of waging a sporting war), that wouldn't be a logical flaw. It would be a factual error.

But seeing I did not refer to "all Indians" and simply said "Indians like Modi", I do not think I have erred.

Especially since Modi does not refer to the Bangladeshi Premier League. He refers exclusively to the BBL and EWCB.

But I agree with you that India's most important 'must win' opposition is Pakistan, but India is reguarly at actual war with them currently. So their players are banned from India's IPL.

And yet again, Modi does not even refer to the PSL.

Australia are a leading force in cricket as most often the best on field, made the Packer day/night revolution first and were at one time a financial force in cricket; and through on-field issues with sledging, their crowds also at times racially sledging, have made bitter rivalries. So they're an important series for a lot of teams.

But just in case you missed it, read what Modi wrote again.

The Big Bash is a fly to be swatted on the wall compared to IPL. Its revenue is negligible to the IPL. ECB will be the same. It will make a little bit of noise but when it comes to players the big money will be in India.

Modi is declaring Indian victory over things in Australia and England that are not even in competition. So he is quite proud of the sporting war won by India that most Brits are not aware even existing. Whether all or most Indians share his view, is irrelevant to me. Whether there is a widespread "former colonial mind set" and where it is strongest felt, be it the Carribbean, Aus and NZ, or the Sub-Continent, is also not relevant to me.

Now if Modi had said that English food is crap compared to Indian food, I wouldn't have raised an eyebrow.

"Your inclination to assume and contradict is typical of Narcissism which is nothing about being pretty like the Narcissus fable."

i picked on you. not modi. you go in circles but lost the whole point of discussion. modi also said T20 would turn into 4 day circus? i see that he had lost his marbles staying in london as a fugitive.

Going South wrote:you go in circles but lost the whole point of discussion.

GS, when you claim someone is logically flawed, and then factually correct them instead of logically correct them by pointing to a fallacy, I am not sure that you ever got the whole point of my discussion.

Going South wrote:modi also said T20 would turn into 4 day circus? i see that he had lost his marbles staying in london as a fugitive.

Well this would also explain Modi's opinion.

What could happen in the future in the importing of 1 or 2 foreign players into 4 day domestic cricket in India like what happens in English County Cricket. But I am not sure that the BCCI or local first class team administrators would want to make such an investment into foreign players with no viable financial return. Mind you, England does it still, and it could help develop a bit more interest in the first class domestic scene in India if the likes of KW, Smith, and ABDV played some first class games there.

"Your inclination to assume and contradict is typical of Narcissism which is nothing about being pretty like the Narcissus fable."

that’s against business interest of BCCI as if it allow BCCI players play in england’s domestic T20. who gets benefit ? ECB & players. what’s in it for BCCI ? it’s golden goose’s world interest would be diluted starting with star players preferring to play for ECB instead of IPL. big no no for BCCI. So they won’t allow it and rule players with iron fist of bush doctrine on indian players either you are with me or against me. unless there is a guaranteed steady income from ECB for rest of their lives no indian player would play for ECB domestic tournaments & without indian players, indian viewers won’t pay to watch, thus BCCI supremacy on indian market is maintained. That means modi is either day dreaming, or perhaps just doing a con on his english bosses to please them with a wish of him managing english domestic leagues with his “experience” so that he get stay in england too without deportation issues? never trust a con man. they always have ulterior motives.

Going South wrote:that’s against business interest of BCCI as if it allow BCCI players play in england’s domestic T20. who gets benefit ? ECB & players. what’s in it for BCCI ? it’s golden goose’s world interest would be diluted starting with star players preferring to play for ECB instead of IPL. big no no for BCCI. So they won’t allow it and rule players with iron fist of bush doctrine on indian players either you are with me or against me. unless there is a guaranteed steady income from ECB for rest of their lives no indian player would play for ECB domestic tournaments & without indian players, indian viewers won’t pay to watch, thus BCCI supremacy on indian market is maintained. That means modi is either day dreaming, or perhaps just doing a con on his english bosses to please them with a wish of him managing english domestic leagues with his “experience” so that he get stay in england too without deportation issues? never trust a con man. they always have ulterior motives.

Where was Modi talking about Indian players in the EWCB?

"Your inclination to assume and contradict is typical of Narcissism which is nothing about being pretty like the Narcissus fable."

190+ score, the chance for a captains innings at the fore. A poor start by both openers, and he and Pandey set a partnership.

But, an overall 130's SR by both Pandey and sadly KW both with 50's allowed the RRR to get to close to 14 by the time KW was dismissed. That is not unacceptable with wickets in hand chasing the score he was. But KW still just has not evolved to the Warner levels of chasing and setting these scores. It was a pretty flat pitch, as observed during Gayle crunching Khan for 6's even if KXI have Mujeeb and Tye.

Oh well, this will be a learning experience for KW, and he is probably improving, but I want him to be one of the best t20 bats by the World T20 in 2020 because NZ will most likely and very dearly need him firing at some stage in that tournament.

"Your inclination to assume and contradict is typical of Narcissism which is nothing about being pretty like the Narcissus fable."

Going South wrote: modi is either day dreaming, or perhaps just doing a con on his english bosses to please them with a wish of him managing english domestic leagues with his “experience” so that he get stay in england too without deportation issues? never trust a con man. they always have ulterior motives.

I agree that Lalit Modi is one hell of a con man, but I like that he always talks straight.Doesn't shirk questions, even if his answers raise eyebrows at times.He says what's on his mind - and with a lot of conviction (at least he's convinced).

In this respect, he's miles better than Srinivasan, his arch-enemy.Srinivasan was the archetypal BCCI crook - used his influence to become a BCCI bigwig, and then milked that position with no accountability to anybody. Even changed the rules to allow him to own an IPL franchise (CSK) AND be head of BCCI. Refused to accept there was conflict of interest!

Anyday give me Lalit Modi to Srinivasan.And now Lalit Modi is the fugitive, while Srinivasan is probably comfortably enjoying life in Chennai.

Lalit Modi is the ultimate dreamer too - always dreams big, talks big.And if you look at IPL success today, you've got to admit he's more than just a dreamer.He was key to making it happen, even if ICL started it first.Every IPL opening ceremony, they should start with an ode to Lalit Modi.Without him, there would be no IPL.

It doesn't mean I agree with his views.I don't trust him one bit.

But in the murky world of Indian cricket administration, he has at least SOMETHING to show.More than something actually - the prized crown jewel of BCCI, the IPL.

I made a comparison earlier between a T20 league and a tennis Grand Slam event, saying that players can choose to take part in events as they please (if they qualify).The big error in this analogy is that unlike in tennis, where players are freelancers, in cricket, until now at least, they are employees of their Board.

So the Board dictates their scope and extent of participation.

I think this might also go in future. At least I hope it will.

Just cos you're an Indian, you have to become an employee of BCCI? Why?

If your skills are valued across the world, monetise them wherever you want.

Don't be tied into employment with BCCI - for an annual salary that makes you bonded labour.

We already see this happening with Gayle and Pollard vis-a-vis WICB - could happen in future with Indian players and BCCI too.

Of course you have to be truly international gold for this to happen, supremely confident in your ability to earn much more through freelancing than being an employee.

With WICB it was easy - they pay peanuts compared to Gayle's earning ability through freelancing.

BCCI pays its players well to keep them from feeling like bonded labour. Pampers them too. Plus there's security later in life too. BCCI takes care of ex-players.

So it's unlikely a superstar Indian cricketer will go against BCCI terms and play elsewhere.

More likely that BCCI will make an exception and work out a deal with the player.

raja wrote:Put him in charge of England's T20 competition - he will revolutionise it!

god, you sure loath ECB & english cricket, don’t you?

Seriously, with his business acumen, he could take England's T20 competition to a totally different level.Right now, it's a typical English venture - lacks the aggressiveness that Modi would bring to it.

Of course I have a vested interest in this too.If England's T20 competition becomes very attractive for England players, they will start neglecting the longer format of the game.That will help Australia win Ashes series in the future.

Of course, this is only if Australia itself doesn't lose focus on Test cricket.It's a case of a race to the bottom.

Seriously, with his business acumen, he could take England's T20 competition to a totally different level.Right now, it's a typical English venture - lacks the aggressiveness that Modi would bring to it.

Of course I have a vested interest in this too.If England's T20 competition becomes very attractive for England players, they will start neglecting the longer format of the game.That will help Australia win Ashes series in the future.

Of course, this is only if Australia itself doesn't lose focus on Test cricket.It's a case of a race to the bottom.

Hopefully Lalit Modi stays away from Australian cricket.

It isn't T20, it is 100 balls.

They've set it up for a countdown from the first ball to appeal to non-cricket fans and it will be broadcast for free on the BBC.

Some of the ideas are commercially quite smart, if upsetting to cricket purists. I am not convinced that I am a fan of the Wildcard over, as it favours teams to keep spending on batsmen, and only have 1 high quality bowler, who will singlehandely bowl 28% of the deliveries instead of 20%. But some leading bowlers might be happy that their value just went up, even at the expense of the rest of the bowlers.

"Your inclination to assume and contradict is typical of Narcissism which is nothing about being pretty like the Narcissus fable."

Rajastan royals and kings XI should be forced to change their name as they are odd balls that don’t follow a city name. whatever home ground they got should add that city in name. if not disqualify them.

Gayle only having played 3 games is of course the dominant batting force of this IPL thus far. But Rahul is providing a talking point for Indian cricket given his runs are at the top of the order, and at a fantastic SR.

Narine again leads the bowlers, but look at the all round contributions of Shane Watson.

Talking point of the bowlers for me is Rashid Khan being smashed in two games in a row now. Are batsmen going to continue to take him on? Mujeeb is flying under the radar by not taking wickets, but don't think that the cricketing world outside IPL commentators is not watching this 17yo phenom bowling many cheap overs in this year's IPL. He is going for 7.05 runs per over, with 4 wickets, only bettered by Narine in the table above for economy.

From a Kiwi perspective: While I am pleased KW is establishing his name further in India, I want to see him make winning runs at a high SR, and not just a lot of losing runs or easy assumulations in easy wins. Boult is playing standout cricket for a weak team. It would be good to see Adam Milne get a chance for MI soon instead of McClenaghan who is leaking runs.

From an Afghan perspective:While Khan is going for runs of late, his class is still established. Nabi's is too even if on the SRH bench. And now Mujeeb is starring. Afghanistan now has 3 high quality limited overs spinners. There is no denying this fact. With their wicketkeeper and batting star Muhammad Shazhad, they have 4 world beaters. But where are their batting and seam bowling stars? They really ought to send seamers Zadran and Naib along with batsman Rahmat Shah to county cricket for development to continue their fast tracking up the global cricket ranks (which saw them beat WI in the WC qualifiers ahead of ZImbabwe).

Last edited by Paddles on Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:12 am, edited 3 times in total.

"Your inclination to assume and contradict is typical of Narcissism which is nothing about being pretty like the Narcissus fable."

Tinsel wrote:Gayle will be out early if opposition's give Bowling early to Morris

Morris used to be a very good bowler.

But Morris bowled pies in England last year.

Morris is still bowling pies now.

And while I may be wrong, I am not sure he did much good in the home season vs Australian and Indian cricketers.

I am not sure what the story is with him re comming back from injury, but he has lost his radar, and is possibly down on pace as well.

And with the South African fast bowler and all rounder talent production machine in full effect of late, coupled with quotas, I am not sure he will remain on the world stage much longer unless he sorts this out quick smart.

"Your inclination to assume and contradict is typical of Narcissism which is nothing about being pretty like the Narcissus fable."

Rahul, Krishnappa Gowtham, Shreyas Gopal and Karun Nair have all done well. Or at least not embarrassed Karnataka.Manish Pandey could do better - SRH desperately need him to.Uthappa too has only been average.Stuart Binny - good that expectations from him are zero, so that he never lets you down. Nor does he exceed them. :-)

Vinay Kumar, highly-regarded Karnataka captain and hero of many a domestic game for them, is the nazar battoo. :-)(if you don't know what it means, google it.:-))