The image showed the model lounging on a staircase, wearing a black fur coat and a bikini top, naked from the waist down. After Instagram removed the photo, Rose posted a second photo, this time featuring only her face and cleavage, with the caption, “When IG deletes ur fire ass feminist post but you really don’t give a fuck because everyone picked it up already #amberroseslutwalk#bringbackthebush.” She then shared the deleted photo on Twitter.

For those who haven’t followed Rose, the 33-year-old’s SlutWalk event and social media presence has focused heavily on “slut-shaming,” as well as what liberals have labelled “body positivity.” In April, over at Refinery29,Michael Hafford wrote:

“Amber Rose has always been a spokesperson for body positivity. Lately, she’s been no different. Even though The Amber Rose Show is maybe-or-maybe-not coming back, she hasn’t let her feminist message slip one bit.

Indeed, Rose’s Instagram page features numerous images of her objectified body, and back in 2014, she made waves after posting a video of herself twerking online, supposedly for her then-boyfriend, Wiz Khalifa. Naturally, American liberal media has celebrated all this as “feminist,” because, well, she’s offering up the exact same images the sexist media does, but is calling it “empowerment.” Hafford explains:

“While some sex-negative people consider women putting their bodies on display as an example of self-objectification and subjugation to the male gaze, Rose has always made the distinction clear. The producer of the image and the image’s intent have always been the most important things when considering whether or not a woman is being objectified. If she produces the image, stars in the image, controls the distribution of the image, and helps drive conversation with the image, then there really isn’t a coherent argument to make that said image is anti-feminist.”

Thanks bud! Solid tip.

To be clear, the argument here is that if we choose to present our bodies as sexualized objects that exist for public consumption, the objectification aspect is nullified. (The argument is also that people who criticize objectification hate sex — because bullying women into celebrating porn culture is totally feminist.)

Unfortunately, this logic doesn’t fly. The thing about images is that you generally cannot force the viewer to read the mind of the subject. So what Rose may be thinking inside her head about feminism while photographing her amped up cleavage doesn’t actually impact what her audience sees… Which is just amped up cleavage… Beyond that, I’m gonna go right ahead and disagree with the idea that if you simply think a thing is “feminist,” it becomes feminist, even if that thing is replicating the same old pornographic imagery men have produced and jacked off to since forever.

But let’s get back to the bush. Because, this time, that’s what everyone is freaking out about. In a since-deleted Instagram post, Rose wrote:

“Amber Rose challenge anyone? [P]ost your version of my picture and hashtag #AmberRoseChallenge behalf of feminism, body positivity and not conforming to society norms of how we should live, what we should wear and where we should shave.”

Since then, then hashtag #BringBackTheBush exploded, paired alongside #AmberRoseChallenge. Many of the images posted are jokey, while others are similarly objectifying. Either way, her message falls flat.

Online, Rose has been hailed by young women and men alike as the future of feminism.

Hello Giggles explained that “the Internet has been freaking out about the state of Rose’s natural pubic hair,” failing to notice that there is in fact nothing “natural” about it. Waxed and trimmed and oiled up to the max, Rose’s bush has been tidily coifed. The shock and awe is at the fact she has pubic hair at all, a look rendered unpopular for a good while there, as porn culture dictated a trend towards the Brazilian or no hair at all. Both of those looks are gross and prepubescent-looking, yes, and certainly I’m all for women keeping body hair that exists to protect their bodies from things like infection. I also fully support women pushing back against male gaze-oriented pressure to remove their natural hair more generally, because fuck that. But Rose’s image doesn’t “challenge” anything.

For starters, pubic hair is back, alongside a retro 70s “natural” look. This is a trend (one that I like, but a trend nonetheless — one that has been embraced in pornography, at that). Women’s body hair in general is experiencing a moment, as young women have started (yet again) to let their armpit and leg hair grow. All Rose’s pubic hair says is that she is keeping up with the times, in a very controlled, sexualized, and intentional manner.

Attached to this is the fact the the self-objectified imagery Rose is producing is wholly rubber-stamped by the porn industry. In response to critiques of Rose’s post, Hustler tweeted (then later deleted):

“Why is it that when a women embraces her body, she is called an attention whore? Men do it all the time. Love the skin your in! Embrace you!”

These kinds of images, whether posted by Kim Kardashian, Halle Berry, or Amber Rose are not only self-promotional and almost always have some kind of marketing angle, but also send the very message pornographers like Hugh Hefner have tried to sell the public for decades. Florence Rush noted this particular form of cooptation in an essay published in 1990, in The Sexual Liberals and the Attack on Feminism. She wrote:

“The simultaneous emergence of the sexual revolution… became a convenient, though erroneous, synonym for ‘feminist revolution.’ It offered some free thinkers the comfortable illusion of tolerating feminism without depriving men of their legacy of sexual privilege. They could support issues favoring birth control and abortion; these issues eased sexual access to women without the responsibility for unwanted pregnancy. They could, with good conscience, enjoy Playboy and Penthouse as women-loving feminist publications and still retain the identification of women as sexually available playthings.”

In other words, Rose’s message is one of sexual libertarianism, not feminism. The notion that self-objectifying and producing our own pornified versions of our bodies will challenge the male gaze and the sexist ideas connected to porn culture is naive at best, and destructive at worst.

While I have nothing against Rose and certainly think she means well, having been personally hurt by misogynist men who’ve attacked and shamed her as a “slut,” the message she is sending her fans (many of whom are young women) online and via her SlutWalk event does not advocate an end to patriarchy (i.e. the cause of sexual violence and what some call “slut-shaming”). Instead, it’s an advertisement for neoliberalism that says “choosing” to do whatever we want, whenever we want, will somehow liberate us from violence and oppression. It says pornography, the male gaze, objectification, and capitalism can empower us, if we choose to embrace these systems, ideas, and industries.

Truly, so long as our culture believes women’s bodies are commodifiable products and that they exist to be looked at, we will never overcome the sexualized harassment, violence, and abuse inflicted on us.

Founder & Editor

Meghan Murphy is a freelance writer and journalist. She has been podcasting and writing about feminism since 2010 and has published work in numerous national and international publications, including New Statesman, Vice, Al Jazeera, The Globe and Mail, I-D, Truthdig, and more. Meghan completed a Masters degree in the department of Gender, Sexuality and Women’s Studies at Simon Fraser University in 2012 and lives in Vancouver, B.C. with her dog.

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Thank you! I saw an article about this Amber Rose photo earlier today and was shocked that people were thinking that it in any way advanced the feminist cause. You articulated all the thoughts that were bouncing around my head! Thanks for being a great voice for feminism! 🙂

Atheist

Is that K-Fed grabbing his crotch in the upper right? LOL

Seriously though I’m torn about how to respond to this, mostly because I recently heard of a young black woman who was escorted out of a mall because someone complained she dressed “too slutty.” Her outfit was just fine. IMO it was both sexist and racist. I suspect the asshole who complained about her was trying to punish her for her natural hair, not her outfit.

On one hand, I don’t think nudity or sexualization is empowering. On the other hand, I’m sick of women being shamed for what we wear (or don’t wear), or that the female body is somehow so offensive it must be covered from head to toe or else consequences. I’m really sick and tired of society constantly policing women and everything women do while men run rampant and out of control committing violent crimes and destroying the world. As I write this, the United States is experiencing and unprecedented political and presidential scandal, but nobody is *actually outraged* about that because they’re too busy complaining about Melania Trump’s 50k fashion choices and calling her a wh***. They’d rather it around and talk shit about Melania and Ivanka than demand our lawmakers arrest and jail Donald Trump for admitting he fired James Comey to ease pressure from “the Russia thing.” He admitted this on NATIONAL TELEVISION and is somehow walking around a free man.

It’s a sad day in American when a young black woman from Michigan has been punished more severely for simply existing than Donald Trump after he basically admitted to obstructing justice.

I agree that women should never feel pressured to be nude or sexualize themselves. On the other hand, the double standard of nudity needs to be challenged. If a man walks down the street naked, people either laugh or assume he’s crazy. If a woman walks down the street naked, everyone assumes she’s asking to be raped. Men’s nudity is “funny” and women’s nudity is “asking for it.” That’s a double standard worth fighting against, even if I don’t 100% agree with how the libfems are doing it.

Fanny

Looking at the picture, I actually think the woman was kicked out because she wasn’t wearing a bra under her top (it seems ; I might be wrong). It wouldn’t surprise me, cause not wearing a bra under “regular” clothes is worse than being hypersexualized for most people sadly.

Cassandra

Really good comment, again.

Sue

This picture does nothing for the cause. You want respect from people the show them you know how to earn it. Showing off your naked body won’t earn you that respect your looking for.

Atheist

But that’s just it. Nudity doesn’t have anything to do with having respect or losing it. If John McCain were to suddenly disrobe and talk a walk around the block in the buff, everyone would be asking if the poor man had a stroke. They wouldn’t be questioning his sexual proclivities. A woman doing it would be seen as inappropriate and asking for rape. Women lose their jobs because they’ve been discovered to have worked in the porn industry. Do you think this is acceptable? I don’t. I oppose pornography on principle but I do not believe in punishing women for it.

Hanakai

Well, I think an employer has a perfect right not to hire people who do not share her values. Look, if a woman is involved in making pornography, her values and mores are such that I would not want her teaching or influencing children. I own and operate a business and my employees represent me and my company, and I would not want my company associated in any way with the porn industry. Our clients expect us to take care of their business and to exercise good and prudent judgment on their behalf. Choosing to perform in porn or choosing to post naked and porno pictures of oneself all over the Internet is not a sign of good judgment.

So, if a woman has participated in the porn industry, or has done the millennial thing of posting drunken or naked images on the Internet, she is not going to be hired to work for my firm, or for other companies that care about their image. That is the reality of the job market: employers want employees who are good reflections on the company. I also choose to hire very bright and capable young women who chose to develop their intellects and the young women who choose to engage in porn (because it is so empowering) are just not that bright, or they would understand that what you do follows you, that porn performing is not going to gain you points on a resume or cv, and that lots of employers will not want porn performers working for them.

Young moderns waste half their lives posting on social media and should have figured out by now that postings can have real-world consequences. Harvard just revoked the admission of ten students after finding their gross sexist and racist on-line postings. Law firms fire lawyers who they learn had porn careers. Criminal charges were brought against a young woman who posted the photo of a naked 70-year-old in a gym locker room. What you do has consequences in the real world.

Now, for women who have been trafficked or otherwise forced into the porn industry, there are organizations working to rehabilitate such women and get them mental health services to help with the trauma they carry, and help them with employment. And there needs to be more of this, there are so many women brutalized and traumatized by the sex industry. One wonders why so many yougn owmen think porn and porn performing is cool and wonderful. Very sick culture.

Wren

Young women don’t go into the sex industry cause they “aren’t that bright,” but rather due to extenuating circumstances, and if anything the industry preys on girls that are impressionable, troubled, and facing limited options due to these problems combined with difficulty in school. It’s really fucking tragic. The hot-headed ditzy porn star is the image the industry creates (as well as the business savvy power porn star). But as porn culture takes over our society, more and more women start to perform this way. Young women need more opportunities to work in environments where they aren’t required to act like pseudo porn stars.

Cassandra

Well said. I can’t stand it when people equate NOT taking off your clothes with “earning” respect. That’s conservative bullshit. *That’s* what these dipshit libfems think they’re pushing back against. It’s really muy triste.

Tired feminist

Respect, unlike disrespect, should not need to be “earned”.

lk

This whole idea of earning respect never sat well with me….Do you have the right to just automatically be disrespectful until I have done specific things to earn respect? Shouldn’t it be the other way around?

And the idea of earning respect always seems to be thrown at women and girls.

Men just get respect. Women have to work for it and earn it.

Retorter

Indeed. That’s still saying that one needs to *prove* themselves in order to be respected. Men have been saying this a long time about women: that women don’t deserve respect b/c of all the ways we do things wrong, that if we’d just change ourselves in a certain way, then we’d get it (see “if you would just be a little nicer about it, then men would listen to you and respect your point” argument for prime example of this b.s.). It goes w/o saying that those goalposts are moved once you get anywhere near them – you will never get respect from those men, b/c they don’t consider you a whole human being.

corvid

“Feminism is putting our pussies in their faces till they show respect.”

Infinite respect to you Meghan for making the same arguments with such skill and patience, over and over, year after year, and facing the same wall of stupidity and assholery every time.

Hekate Jayne

I can’t believe that they don’t know how stupid they sound.

“Yeah! We will show all of the rapey dudes! By showing them pics of us naked! And shoving our pussies in their faces! That will earn us all of the respect! And they will just throw our rights at us! Because dudes really love it when we respect ourselves with naked sexy pics! That always works!”

Sabine

Yep. Naked, sexy pics have earned women sooooooooooooo much respect and equality over the years! Men will simply continue to wank away over images that look exactly the same as all the other sexualized, “lookatmeiamsohot” photos of (increasingly young) women plastered absolutely everywhere. Does this exhibitionist truly believe leering men will give a shit about whether she feels “empowered?” Posed, pornified, naked flesh does not equate to any kind of liberation for women. I don’t really know who she is but this Amber person just comes across as yet another vacuous celeb who is absolutely in love with herself and gets off on her own objectification.

cday881@gmail.com

Ms. Wallace, putting your pussy in men’s faces is more likely to lead to cunnilingus than respect.

cday881@gmail.com

Also, if they don’t show respect, do they get more pussy in their faces? Someone might be failing guy psychology.

Nudity isn’t about respect and it’s not about losing respect. That’s the kind of mentality that gets women fired if they have a past in pornography.

Hanakai

It is so sad to see how modern young women have denigrated womenhood and feminism by accepting the patriarchal pornographic view of alleged female liberation and progress. Were our foremothers wasting their time trying to get votes, education, opportunities, rights for women, trying to get women viewed as humans and respected as people and for their intelligence and kindness and humor and uniqueness instead of as sex objects.

Men lust after women, regardless. It is not necessary to take off one’s clothes in public.* I do not get why young women think they need to present themselves as sexually available in order to attract males or get male approval. Heck, in Saudi Arabia, men lust after women who are clothed in full body bags.

I know so many amazing, remarkable women: doctors who are serving women and children, physicians and public health workers helping to bring health care and vaccines to Third World countries, lawyers fighting for the environment, wildlife and the rights of the oppressed, bioengineers and inventors working to improve the world, writers and historians and researchers who are discovering truths, activists working for the greater good — instead of celebrating the amazing women, who does popular culture elevate as the vanguard of feminism: strippers who need mental health treatment, twerkers, porn performers, women who appeal to porn culture and who perpetuate the sexual objectification of women. The Slutwalks play right into the patriarchal and misogynistic views of women. Ugh. Porn culture.

In the US, government data has 1 in five women being a victim of rape or sexual assault (though that figure is likely low) and a rapist has less than a 2% chance of spending any time behind bars. In many lands; 10-year-old girls are getting married off to be enslaved wives and domestic servants to old men; when girls get pregnant too young, their bodies often suffer horrible childbirth injuries, including fistulas through which they leak urine and feces after which they are often exiled to a hut outside the village; in Saudi Arabia women are jailed and have their children taken away from them for the crime of driving; in some countries women are kept covered from the crown of the head to the toes in basically burlap sacks and have no more rights than do cattle and goats; that girls have no access to education, even basic education, in much of the world; that 20,000 children die of starvation every day — the injustices are endless. Let us vow to end them.

In light of the work ahead for real feminism, this whole Amber Rose & Kim Kardashian & flaunt your ass & present as a sex object celebrity sickness primate-in-heat is retrogression. Who is financing this? Who is making money off this? How can the money be cut off or threatened?

Poor Amber, started working for the sex industry as a stripper at age 15. She does not need Slutwalk, she needs therapy and an education.

* Lest I be accused of prudery, let me clarify that in proper circumstances, nudity is fine and good. Indeed, among my people, skinny-dipping and sun-bathing are sacred traditions.

radwonka

“we embrace all derogatory labels”

What about people who embrace those labels?

And why are oppressive slurs used as political emancipation? Especially since, if a man thinks that women are “sluts”, banalizing the word won’t change how men see women (ex: 3rd wave feminism exists since the 80s, yet the porn industry still uses derogatory slurs to hurt women and men are still empowered by that, I bet Rose isn’t bothered by that at all)

“The producer of the image and the image’s intent have always been the
most important things when considering whether or not a woman is being
objectified.”

They just contradicted themselves: on one hand they can decide that we are mean “sex negative” even though our “intent” has nothing to do with conservatism, then they describe us as evil even though they claim to not like “shaming”(as long as nothing is “slut shaming”, aka porn shaming, they don’t care if people shame and degrade women). And also, we “choose” to be against patriarchy, choice that they dont respect even though they claim that any choices is “empowering” and that any choices can’t be clearly analyzed since the only thing that matters is what happens in our head… looks like they only support some kind of choices… Yet, they say that as long as a woman does something, if in her head it has no impact on society, then she’s right, and any kind of scientific analysis of social norms is wrong but they obviously didn’t explain how that works exactly.

So…

“All Rose’s pubic hair says is that she is keeping up with the times, in a very controlled, sexualized, and intentional manner.”

Exactly, she is still sexualising her body and sending the message that hypersexualisation should be banalized. Where is freedom when you have to control every inch of your body as if the body as a disease or something?

Aylune B. Papyrus

“The producer of the image and the image’s intent have always been the
most important things when considering whether or not a woman is being
objectified.”

That jumped at me too. It makes no sense. They are basically acknowledging in this sentence that objectification is something women have no control over and that is being done to them, through use of the passive tense (“wether a woman is being objectified”) but… also claim that the woman’s ”intent” is what determines wether objectification is taking place or not ?
Which is it ?

If objectification is something that is being done to us, how can our thoughts on the matter be relevant in any way?

Does he think that men somehow magically know how to tell the difference, and respect that difference ? ”Oh, she CLEARLY didn’t mean to be objectified and she totally chose to present her body to us like a piece of meat… okay, will see her as a human being with hopes and dreams then !”

(Not to mention the rather awkward question that sprungs up when it comes to the woman’s intent : WHY would a woman choose to present her body in a pornified manner that appeals to the male gaze in the first place ? Why would she choose to present her body to a large public at all ?)

Kris

If you ask about the woman’s intent to essentially objectify herself, (or what they might call “expressing themselves” which again only begs the question of expressing what to whom?) then suddenly it becomes a personal, private matter that is none of our business.

Yes indeed, it is a personal private decision to PUBLICLY expose yourself. All these public displays of “expression” are part of a conversation only those who will validate said expression can join. Because requiring validation from the public at large and shutting down any analysis and criticism is empowering.

radwonka

“Does he think that men somehow magically know how to tell the
difference, and respect that difference ? ”Oh, she CLEARLY didn’t mean
to be objectified and she totally chose to present her body to us like a
piece of meat… okay, will see her as a human being with hopes and
dreams then !””

IKR?! And they seem to imply that if you are technically objectified but don’t want to be objectified at the same time, then people around will not see you as objectified anymore which… doesnt make sense, since the same people will say that 1. everyone has “agency” thus no one can influence each other (which should include the idea that our thoughts can’t change what others think) and 2. how can personal feeling define what is objectified or not? Since when do personal feelings replace materialistic measures and why? If they think that personal opinions define actions, then why do they always stigmatize women who don’t objectify themselves without asking if they feel objectified or not?

Since they are pro relativism (ie “everything is subjective, even objectification”), they shouldn’t be moralistic, yet their argumentation is always policing (ie “if you see her as objectified then you are wrong!”) and controlling (ie “if Amber says that she is not objectified, then you should believe her!”).

In other words Agency and personal feelings are not really protected, only some people (those who conform to patriarchal standards) benefit from that circular reasoning. Circular reasoning that is more a political tool to have political immunity (ie doing whatever you want without being questioned or criticized) rather than being a logical argument which would explain why this social norm exists (as you said, they never explain why something exists, they are rather essentialist, so they probably think that social norms are natural (or should be natural), which is why their world is rather stereotyped: you are either a catholic prude or a “free” pornified woman. I guess it’s important to always point out that these people claim to be pro freedom, pro relativism, pro diversity, pro personal opinions, etc etc yet always choose which personal opinions matter (and which ones don’t) and love to use personal attacks and ad hominem to silence opponents… so much freedom and respect lol).

Morag999

“Waxed and trimmed and oiled up to the max, Rose’s bush has been tidily coifed.”

This sentence made me laugh! Because when I saw the photo I was thinking: Bush? Where’s the bush? I’m surprised she didn’t have some blond highlights put in.

As for empowered anti-feminist feminism, it’s been 14 years since The Onion published its widely-read mockery of female (un)empowerment:

Yet the pussy-power farce shows no signs of slowing down. Much like male dominance and violence.

Cassandra

I’d never seen that Onion piece. Hi-fucking-larious. Sad that nothing’s changed.

Somewhat off topic, I’m up late tonight nearly giddy with empowerment because I’m being laid off tomorrow—something I have wanted for oh so long—as my boss is a privileged white male douchebag patriarch in his 70s with an ego the size of the grand canyon. He’s old enough to be my father and yet can’t understand why I never wanted to sleep with him. He haz confused! I am somehow not impressed with his Brioni suits and sports cars and teeny tiny little man hands. No skin off his nose though, as he found a subordinate employee just a couple of years older than I am who’s more than willing to sleep with him for promotions and raises. I mean talk about empowerment! She’s SUPER empowered!

Seriously though, I truly am so happy to be getting out; I shan’t sleep tonight!

Sabine

Fourteen years! Dear god…it could so easily have been written this week. The ridiculous just kept on getting more ridiculous and here we are.

Rachael

It pisses me off enough that I have to stumble across photos like that online when I’m going about my day nevermind having to see people justifying it under the “feminist” label. I find it interesting that they now feel they must justify – perhaps the tides are turning.
Either way, fab article as usual! Thank you

Milku7

I can’t agree more! I’m so tired of this type of “feminist” it looks like a joke to me. Even more tired of some women telling me that objectifiying myself is empowering, sorry honey but I don’t feel empowered at all for showing my boobs on Instagram.
And freedom isn’t doing whatever we want, whenever we want, that’s only inmaturity and selfishness. We live in a society like it or not, we have to have more empathy towards others when it comes to acting, especially when our actions can have an impact or influence on an oppressed group.
I don’t see how showing up your pussy (in a very photoshopped photo..) can help oppressed women around the world, I don’t think it’s going to change anything either.
Sadly this is the type of feminist that sells, of course, because in reality it doesn’t challenge patriarchy at all it only reinforces it.

Sabine

Women are being duped into believing that giving men hard-ons and “making” them want to fuck them equates to holding some kind of power. That’s what this kind of “empowerment” is about: enjoying a mistaken, illusory sense of “power” over men’s boners, male desire. There ain’t no such thing as all of us here know….If these women knew what was *actually* going through these men’s heads when they were wanking to their images they would probably never even consider serving themselves up like slabs of meat ever again.

Hekate Jayne

You said:
“Women are being duped into believing that giving men hard-ons and “making” them want to fuck them equates to holding some kind of power.”

I agree.

But the really interesting thing about it is that males have been using this exact line of thinking to escape responsibility for decades. They claim that we have the most important power, the “pussy power”.

They are helpless because we are so powerful when we are sex objects. Lots of them use that excuse for rape.

It’s typical male reversal. It’s total bs. But some women get a huge payoff from patriarchy by perpetuating this shit. Amber is one of them.

esuth

When I was sexually assaulted as a teenager my immediate response was to
retreat, cover my body with as many layers as I could find, and not
talk about it. Then after a few years I entered a phase where I got
really brash and sexually aggressive with boys and men. I did whatever
violent sex my boyfriends wanted me to do, and I honestly enjoyed it at
the time. Coincidentally, that was the period in my life when I believed
that “slut-shaming” was a thing. Now that I’ve discovered radical
feminism I can see clearly that I was sexualizing myself as a shield
against the sexual trauma I’d experienced as a kid. I couldn’t beat ’em
so I joined ’em. And what I called ‘slut-shaming’ was actually the fact that I knew that the sexuality I was performing was not my own.

Wren

Right! Women perform the way they are brutally trained to, as disposable fuckable dolls, and then “shamed” for it. In this sense, I understand Amber’s point: the world has treated her as a sexual object under men’s sovereignty and control, and then they punish her for it. Well fuck them. I’m not excusing her, but I seem to feel more pity and compassion for her then I do hate. She’s cashing in on it, so it feels doubly empowering, but it’s a hollow victory. I hope she pulls a Rose McGowan someday.

If you enjoy the attention that you get from presenting your body in a sexy way in the internet, fine. But stop calling it feminism or empowering…stop encouraging other women and girls to do the same.

The thing with liberal feminism is that it can never answer the how question.

Liberal feminists defend everything from the burqa to prostitution, but they can never explain how doing these things will help improve the material situations of women as a class.

(I also find that liberal feminism does an awful job of answering the why question…like why would a woman wear a niqab or heels that she can barely walk in?..Well, because male dominated society demands she does things. But liberal feminism will just say it’s choice…without even engaging with why women make certain choices..)

How does showing my cleavage on the internet help women? How does posing for playboy, stripping, help women?

They just repeat mantra’s about choice, empowerment, biology and feelings.

Hekate Jayne

Well, I am old and a prude, apparently. And those 2 things define my “choices”.

And you know what my choice is? My choice is that I understand that my attention, my time, and especially my body, are MY privileges and I *choose* who gets the privilege of any of these things.

I don’t speak to males unless I absolutely have no choice. Like my mechanic. Or the guy that cuts my grass. And then, I speak only what I have to. There’s no exchange of pleasantries outside of an initial hello.

When I go to a store or the bank or wherever, I seek out women. I will wait in a long cashier line for a woman before going to the open line of a male. I avoid males in public. It’s a time and energy saver, since every interaction with a male amounts to me attempting to determine if they are a threat or just an inappropriate asshole.

To me, that’s a little empowering. I *choose* to avoid any male interaction that I can. And conversely, I pay extra attention to the women that I interact with.

So this whole “empowered by providing pics for dudes to wank to” is really extra foreign to me. I refuse to give that kind of privilege to the male public at large. They won’t get anything from me, unless they forcibly take it.

I don’t know if my attitude is intrinsically feminist, or not. But I agree with you, that whatever this is that amber is doing is NOT feminist. And it hurts us all for her to present it as such.

That, and it’s just idiotic. But CHOOSEY CHOICEY CHOICE.

Cassandra

“But liberal feminism will just say it’s choice…without even engaging with why women make certain choices..)”

Yes. Class analysis and context are anathema to them.

Meghan Murphy

What I am arguing here is not necessarily that women shouldn’t shave (though I’d prefer if we didn’t try to reach standards of hairlessness and ‘sexiness’ dictated by men and porn culture), but that stripping and shaving and self-objectification doesn’t equal ‘feminism’.

Also, waxing and shaving your vulva to make it look like that of a prepubescent girl, thereby leaving you vulnerable to infection, is a gross trend, yes. I’m not attacking women who’ve done it — I’ve done it myself, when I was younger — but the trend and practice is gross, yes.

Hekate Jayne

Is posting pics like this of yourself an aspect of power?

Can you explain how it’s an aspect of power? I’m genuinely asking. Because I can’t seem to find the power.

All I see is pandering to males. And I don’t see any power on that. Not even a little.

Sabine

“All I see is pandering to males. And I don’t see any power on that. Not even a little.”

My thoughts exactly.

Tired feminist

Oh come on now, be honest. You wouldn’t shave your vulva (or any part of your body, really) if you hadn’t been conditioned to find body hair gross. I certainly wouldn’t.

As for body positivity… it’s your decision, sure. But you can also be SURE that’s not the reason why men will look at your pictures.

Tired feminist

And people will also mock her for that, for becoming “a prude” after having been “a slut” for most of her life. And so they won’t take her points seriously. Whenever she dares to make a critique of porn culture they’ll throw her past on her face. I’ve seen it happen many times too.

Claudia Manion

Exactly. Pamela Anderson comes to mind as recently attacked for her criticism of porn culture.

Petya

“I would like to declare that @DaRealAmberRose is the future I want.”

Well, if THAT is the future, please, shoot me NOW.

The fact that creepy, misogynistic Hustler supported Amber says it all, not a single word more needed.

I am all for sister solidarity but some women are just stupid, egoistic, harmfull …. well, if that’s what they want to be called, why not oblige them…. sluts.

Tired feminist

Get out of here, troll.

Atheist

Yes women can flawed and many are even outright misogynists (see your use of the slur sl*t).

It doesn’t mean it’s okay to participate in public displays of misogyny against them, either.

Sabine

Erm….NO. Clearly you are not “all for sister solidarity”.

Laura

I think this is emotional and short sighted on your part. Calling any woman a slut, even if she’s a scammer like Rose, harms all women.

radwonka

Exactly, how can something be degrading (as you said, they admit that it is degradation that turns them on) and not degrading (ie they will say “it’s just a word!”) at the same time?
I bet that deep down it’s really the degradation that they want to keep since neutralizing slurs was never part of their program (and even if it was, it was probably a lie to push the ”reclaim slurs uwu” agenda).
Which kinda makes sense: they want to keep both the slur and its meaning for men because they want women to be submissive (young girls will grow up thinking that there is nothing wrong with MVAW basically).

3rd wave feminism is full of inconsistencies and projections: they claim that it is radicals who degrade women yet have no problem with men who really degrade women (and also say that there is nothing wrong with degradation in itself lol). Just like when they say that radicals are just like patriarchal men, yet are the ones who promote MVAW. Or last example: they say that we don’t support “all” choices, yet they will only support pro patriarchal norms and will simply stigmatize those who don’t (that’s really hilarious comin from a movement whom main (if not unique) slogan is “support women’s choices without shaming/questioning them” lmao); they will say that we police and control them, and yet constantly oppress and degrade radicals, promote patriarchal norms (ie teaching young girls that their body exists for the male gaze and beauty norms) and are always the first ones who will decide what is feminism and what is not…. And the worst part is that their arguments are really weak…

It’s not even interesting to discuss with them. They can’t stay consistent and don’t even realise it: their feminism is just a tool that means: “I like something, but I don’t know how to banalize it, can’t explain why I like it, don’t tell me what is culture, culture doesn’t influence me, can’t explain why, I don’t care if you like different things, you deserve to be humiliated for that, and don’t care if my actions have consequences nor do I care if Im inconsistent, also what I like should always exist because… idk… agency… idk”.
Seriously, why do people support that? Even highschool students are smarter than that.

Hekate Jayne

If a woman chooses to take and post naked pics of herself. ……FEMINISM.

“3rd wave feminism is full of inconsistencies and projections…”
Yes! It is all blatant projection.

FierceMild

Many people also eat velveeta cheese and prefer it to actual food are you going to argue that calling velveeta gross is offensive as well?

Magenta

Thank you for this article. It amazes me how women think that doing exactly what men want (seeing them naked) is empowering… It sure looks empowering… for men. Why can’t they see that men never need to get naked to proof they’re powerful.

antrenteau

One thing that puzzles me with the first picture (from Instagram?) is why does “MAN” has to be there at all? Why have a apparently heterosexual man alongside women and homosexual people? Why have the word “MAN” be the only one in capital letters and have it followed by:
“We embrace all the derogatory labels that are thrown at us”
Since when does “man” is a derogatory label exactly? What is this planet Amber Rose is?

It’s almost like if all this vocabulary comes out of nowhere, is said by unremarkable people, without it having a meaning and place in any sort of systemic oppression (which is yet to be mentioned). To see “man” in this list just scream of a total absence of political analysis and of absence of perspective. There’s so little in it’s kinda appalling, and then what are those capital for…?

It’s most certainly taking a short text too seriously, but since there’s nothing to do but talking about words in those (well this and pornographic-ish pictures that is).

Tired feminist

My first thought when I read that was “who are the man haters again?”

will

Yeah, doing something that is biologically unhealthy so that men can pretend that you are a child and not an adult when they have sex with you is gross. That is different from saying the person or their body part is gross, which you have incorrectly read into Meghan’s very clear writing.

And seriously – have you seen the outside world lately? If a perfectly rational statement about an extremely irrational cultural practice offends you, you must spend all of your waking hours in a state of disgust, given that there is so much happening right now to be truly offended about.

Katka

I prefer both male and female partners shaved especially for oral sex. (Never told them what to do with their hair though, its their choice.) Never pretended they are children either. 🙁 Thats disgusting.

Tired feminist

Katka, seems that feminist criticism of so-called “choice” to engage in femininity is new to you. I suggest you click on the tag “Choice Feminism” at the bottom of the page and read a few articles.

You’re welcome to disagree and discuss, just please try to understand first what our position is.

radwonka

I guess it is useless, once women are into liberal feminism, it’s really hard to discuss with them, beyond libfem concepts (“slut shaming” “I like it” etc) they just don’t know what to say, as if they don’t want to read and understand our position :/

will

This is a cultural critique in the context of a political movement for justice and social change, not a conversation about personal preferences.

Katka

I know “choice feminism” and I criticize it often. Thanks!

I’m not saying our choice are free. Not at all. I’m not saying we shouldnt discuss how those decissions are made and influenced. I’m just saying this article seems too judgmental and one sided to me. Yes, I believe there are legitimate reasons to trim or shave you pubic hair. And that theres nothing ‘gross’ about it or about a person who does it.

I was clear in my comment that nudity or sexualization doesn’t have anything to do with power. I was discussing the perception of nudity based on a hypothetical situation and how people respond to it.

The response to women’s nudity is downright dangerous. The mere existence of our physical, biological bodies is deemed a target for male brutality.

I agree with the points you’re making, I’m just not sure what it has to do with my post.

Wren

Yes, and libfems think that if we ACT like men, we will be EQUAL to men, which is why the fight for “equality” seems to get us nowhere.

Cassandra

Yup. How can we be equal to something that needs us to be less than it to be what it is?

Hekate Jayne

And what is with the shinyness?

Is it extra sexay to look as if you would slide off of furniture because of the grease?

I don’t understand anything about anything anymore.

Wren

I was wondering how she managed to stay on the stairs, lol.

Hekate Jayne

Velcro? A non-slip rubber grip of some kind?

If I greased myself up like that, I would end up explaining to emergency workers sooner rather than later. Non greasy is tricky enough most days. Not going to invite trouble.

Aylune B. Papyrus

”Non greasy is tricky enough on most days” I’m with you, sister 😉

Just Passing Through

“I don’t understand anything about anything anymore.” lol… same here.

corvid

“Feminism is putting our fists in their faces till they show respect.”

There! Fixed it! 😀

DeColonise

I might be getting old but I have never understood how one can claim to “reclaim words” when those words have never had any positive meaning ever nor do I understand why someone should embrace derogatory words unless one have somehow managed to turn being violated and bullied and so on into a kick for themselves.

I can’t see how that have helped anyone that has been victims of bullying or abuse and so on.
What if prisoners in the nazi deathcamps had started to embrace the slur/term undermensch? how had that helped them at all. How had that been empowering them in any way shape or form…

I just don’t get it.

Sabine

You’re not the only one. It simply does not make any sense at all. Words like “slut” or “whore” have only ever been vile and misogynistic. They are not words that once had beautiful, respectful meanings that have been hijacked by the patriarchy. So what, exactly, is being “reclaimed”? It’s just more nonsensical libfem bullshit.

Sabine

I agree with you except for the part where you say pictures like the ones Amber Rose is putting out there represent an “aspect of power”. I don’t see any power in it at all.

Sabine

Sadly, yes.

FierceMild

The name ‘slut’ is itself a misogynist slur. No matter who uses it the ultimate end is a put down of women.

I see your point and hear your outrage and she certainly should be critiqued for what she’s doing and has done, but there isn’t a way to use the word ‘slut’ against a woman that doesn’t diminish us all.

Hekate Jayne

That post was annoying to me, also. Especially the part about “values and mores”.

Needing to eat, pay for medical care, pay rent, maybe for raising kids, needing money to survive is a fine “value” as far as I am concerned.

I am of the opinion that if a woman has any other choice at all, that she would not be involved in porn or prostitution. I assume lack of choice is the cause. As such, I can’t look down on women that have been or are in porn/prostitution.

Liz

yep. There are jobs that involve killing people, for goodness sakes.

Petya

It’s not about earning respect but about tolerating disrespect. So many women take BS from men and they continue to disrespect them because they can, no other reason.

Meghan Murphy

Excuse me? I suppose racism happens because people of colour ‘put up with it’ too???

Wren

Yes to all of what you wrote and thanks.

A woman’s arrest history definitely prevents her from getting back into normal life. In some states (including where I live) there are efforts to legislate to expunge records after certain lengths of time, but of course that time might be years and the woman is struggling. I was lucky with the arrests (I was arrested but the charges were dropped, was out of state from where I now live, etc).

These are nice model programs to emulate should I ever win the lottery!! My favorite is Thistle Farm.

lk

The body positivity movement no longer seems to be about women being comfortable in their bodies, but about encouraging ALL women (young, old, fat, skinny, white, black…etc) to believe that their worth comes from being viewed as sexy by men.

If you look at the instagram, twitter or fb photos of women who are big on body-positivity…they are usually extremely sexualized, focused on cleavage, butts, lingerie, high heels, etc weird poses..not to mention that they are often airbrushed, photoshopped, filtered, never show any stretch marks, cellulites or scars.

There is nothing revolutionary or new about the idea that women’s value comes from how we look..

Aylune B. Papyrus

I know… :'(

The truly revolutionary idea would be : hey you know what ? Fuck your looks. Yes, you’re probably ugly, yes, you gained three pounds, yes, you have creases. That’s great. Congratulations. You have a human body. Can we move on now ?

Think of the incredible sense of power and confidence all women would feel once they realize that meh, maybe I’m ugly. WHO CARES.
Patriarchy would lose an extremely powerful weapon and we’d forego a huge source of misery and insecurities.
(Yes, I know, it’s SO MUCH EASIER SAID THAN DONE. Doesn’t mean we shouldn’t strive for it, god damn it.)

”Everyone is beautiful” is a lie, anyways. There IS a standard of beauty and most of us just won’t make it. We will always have too big noses or too big butts or greasy hear… or… I don’t know… be human. Sure, you can argue that this standard is bullshit (and it is) and everyone is beautiful ”in their own way”, but… what purpose does it really serve ? It’s much less powerful that ”Beauty ? Ain’t nobody got time for that ! I gotta stop the US from building a missile base in South Korea !”

ptittle

Actually, it might be easier than you think. Like any habit, the first couple weeks are hard, but after than? WHO CARES. Now let’s talk about South Korea.

corvid

“Probably because “subversive” sex positivity allows you to get away with anything.”

That’s likely right. The trans crowd, with its contingent of porn-obsessed dudes, loves pornified vaginas. It’s when we start being “sex-negative,” i.e. radical, that the accusations of “biological essentialism” come out. Pretty telling isn’t it, as though silencing porn-critical feminists were a major unspoken goal of the trans movement.

FierceMild

I will, actually, I don’t have so many radfem friends and associates that I can afford not to care about one. Eve if we’re only online associates.

Cassandra

Awww, thanks Fierce. Right back at ya.

snapcracklepop

Great article, and I agree with the posts about women’s shaving of their vuvlas as pandering to men, as conditioned by the patriarchy. However, I’d like to point out that it’s not uncommon at all for younger lesbian women to do the same, and that needs highlighting in this discussion. Interested in any thoughts.

FierceMild

Lesbians still live and grow up in a porn-saturated Patriarchy. There is no side-stepping the aesthetic of your own culture.

lk

I think the criticism still holds for lesbian women as well, because all women (straight or not) grow up in a world where the beauty standards we see are about what is attractive to men.

Women (for the most part) do not set the larger cultural expectations for what is sexy/attractive..men do.

Retorter

So, if a young girl, an adolescent, has been overwhelmed by the message that ‘choosing’ something is empowering, no matter how damaging, then do you think it’s no prob at all that a man pay to rape her if she erroneously ‘decides’ that being *prostituted* is something that empowers her? Seems like your logic is a convenient excuse to insult and abuse women you simply don’t like.

Katka

I see diference between criticizing things and calling other peoples bodies gross. Critique is ok and necessary of course.

Meghan Murphy

Sorry but sexualizing girls/pedophilia IS gross. I was not calling women’s vaginas gross.

radwonka

Did you even read what I write?

” calling other peoples bodies gross.”

wut? and also, Citation needed.

will

Why do you keep talking about “calling other peoples [sic] bodies gross”? It has been pointed out to you repeatedly now that nobody did that and still you are on about it.

ptittle

Mainstream feminism established that. Back in the 70s.

Then it got kicked out of the mainstream by other fake feminisms. Not quite sure how that happened or when or why…

Tired feminist

It was postmodernism. I have yet to find anything in postmodernist philosophy that is not verborragic bullshit.

Meghan Murphy

“Judging people’s bodies” is not the same thing as criticizing porn culture.

Tired feminist

“saying shaving is gross is just as bad in my opinion…”

But why, exactly? The reason why feminists find it gross is because it’s a trend that comes from porn (one of the grossest things that exist) to make women look as much as possible like prepubescent children (the only people who naturally don’t have pubic or armpit hair). Now, what is the reason why people find women’s body hair gross? Are the two opinions really equivalent?

“never heard shaving legs would make us look like a child”

They won’t say it, of course. But that’s the only explanation that makes sense re: why women are required by porn culture to remove body hair.

(Yes, children do have leg hair, but much thinner and almost imperceptible.)

radwonka

“the men who paid these women for sex are still working their decent paying jobs”

Indeed, even when the police stop pimps, they won’t stop johns – (even if it is sex slavery). Which doesn’t make sense, because johns are rapists, but they are rarely condemned. I guess this is because most of men are pornsick males and thus don’t want to condemn their bros. They know that if they start condemning their bros (especially bros that contribute to institutions that gives them power like prostitution), patriarchy won’t be strong anymore.

This is why I don’t trust the police or the military when it comes to stopping sex slavery: they won’t stop anything, and they will ruin our politics so they can later say “see? We couldn’t do anything! we can’t stop johns and pimps! legalize prostitution now! and also let us be clients!”. (In my country, there is a police man who is a captain who supports the sex lobby, he goes to universities to say “lol sex trafficking doesn’t really exist, and we can’t stop pimps anyways lol legalize pls” smh)

All this talk about “honor” and “bravery” has always been BS, none of these men will fight against MVAW.

I wish we had a radfem unit, because if we had one, I’m quite sure that they would be more effective (and thus show that police men are purposely uneffective and lazy).

It’s a shame that we have to rely on institutions (I mean the police and the military) that have a long history of MVAW, colonialism and abuse, to push our politics. And as I already said, they won’t do anything so…. :/

Not only for the reasons you listed, but because many of those men probably participate in vaw (through purchasing prostitutes, abusing women in the prison system, etc) or think its really no big deal. I would be curious to know what percentage of men who are involved in policing or in the military use or have used prostitutes? I would guess a good amount of them.

I’m willing to bet a lot of police forces think spending money, time and manpower on convicting johns, pimps, traffickers, etc…is not a good use of police resources.

I think a female-only unit division of police forces that focus on sex-related crimes would be amazing!!

Cassandra

Well, the stress of having this particular job actually outweighs the stress of not having any particular job. I feel as if I will land on my feet. I appreciate your empathy, however, and I’m sorry you were so stressed out. I hope things are better now?

radwonka

False equivalence: washing your hair and your body is hygienic, whereas shaving has nothing to do with health.

But at least you admit that you just internalized that norm, maybe we are getting somewhere…

“But saying shaving is gross is just as bad in my opinion”

can you at least explain why? You said many things, moralizing peoples’ opinions (without even giving counter arguments), but didn’t even bother to explain why our opinions are bad, you just compared our opinions to a norm that objectifies women and that’s all (false equivalence again). You just say “but I like so” (I already explained why it is a logical fallacy, but you didn’t answer my point), “some people like it so”, “what you said is bad” but won’t justify your position.

Can you make some logical arguments or are you just here to demonize our position?

Minori Wisti

I am genuinely confused, can someone point me to some background reading? Specifically the idea (or whatever I can grasp of it, like I said, confused) that we can’t make autonomous choices because we’re too steeped in patriarchy to really know what’s good for us? Is this a theory that works by asking us to disregard that we don’t live in a perfect vacuum? It seems entirely impractical, so any further reading would be great.
Also, it’s disappointing that you shame not having any pubic hair? How is shaming another woman feminist?
I do see where you’re coming from, to an extent, critiquing amber rose’s type of feminism. But I don’t think this is the time to tear that down. It’s kind of inevitable that this would happen- an initially intense reaction to all the repression. My hope is that in the future there won’t be such a need to, I don’t know, be sexy and show that it’s fun for you also (for lack of a better term) , and that we can just be. And that that will be enough. And that will be revolutionary. I just hope this doesn’t turn into a polarization where we angrily shake our fists at men and treat them how we remember being unfairly treated.

Meghan Murphy

What she is doing is not feminism… It’s sexual liberalism + capitalism.

lk

Meghan’s article is not shaming anyone…Meghan is critiquing the idea that embracing misogynistic slurs, focusing on individual choice without examining the contexts of those choices and presenting our bodies as sex objects to be publicly consumed does nothing to help women as a class.

“Specifically the idea (or whatever I can grasp of it, like I said, confused) that we can’t make autonomous choices because we’re too steeped in patriarchy to really know what’s good for us?”

No, the article is not saying that women cannot make choices. The article is highlighting the fact that from birth we are shaped and influenced by a male-dominated culture that often encourages women to only see themselves in terms of men (i.e., we need to be sexy to get a man, our goal in life should be to get married have children, be submissive and etc).

We are looking at the context of choices and why women make the choices we do. Why do women wear high heels, shave all their hair, have plastic surgery, get lip injections and so on? These choices are not really good for women, nor are they driven by biology….they are choices that we have been groomed to make since we were children.

Oh I think I remember learning this point before- that capitalizing on patriarchy can be beneficial for the individual but not women as a whole. That makes sense. I still don’t care if the woman next to me is a stripper, I think she she could still be a really great feminist. I suppose it’s about being aware of what you’re doing and having boundaries that you get to define.
I just thought the shaving your vulva thing seemed a little shamey, as she was calling it gross, but that’s an opinion anyone is entitled to. It just seemed a little besides the point and alienating but if you want to preach to the choir on that one, that’s fair (sincerely!). I don’t do it personally but I know people who do and i know they don’t have problems being good feminists. A lot of these points just seem to be, while not unimportant, for the most priveleged to ask each other, at least for now. I feel like a lot of the points in this article could be completely valid, but also we are at a time where it’s important to not alienate each other. Which is way easier said than done!
Thank you to everyone who gave me a thoughtful reply.

Meghan Murphy

I don’t understand what your argument is, here? That because she is mixed race (Black/ Portuguese/ Irish and Italian) and did some modelling (she really hasn’t done all that much in hip hop… like a few appearances in music videos — most of the work she’s done in modelling was just, like, regular modelling), after she left stripping, the self-objectification is somehow feminist?

And hip hop is no more misogynist than the modelling industry as a whole or strip clubs, for goodness sake. We don’t say that pro-sex work arguments are feminist just because the person making them spent time in the sex trade. Your argument just doesn’t fly.

Cassandra

Thank you!!! Solidarity, sister, and you’re all important to me, too.

Wren

Exactly. It’s mighty convenient for men that women must turn to the sex trade to survive economically. Gosh, if we had better paying jobs and REAL child support, we might never sell ourselves!! It’s almost like it’s part of THE MASTER PLAN TO FUCK OVER WOMEN.

Minori Wisti

Hi Rachael. Which part are you upset about?

Minori Wisti

I think Ik helped me clear the confusion a little. I’m not sure if you were trying to go anywhere with this comment? Thanks

Danielle Matheson

I call it gross when people when people don’t wash their hair all the time. Perhaps you’re not listening hard enough. But again, it’s an optional action that’s being discussed here, not her actual body. It’s stated rather fucking clearly in the article.

ExceptionallyAnonymous

Very very true

MermaidJayne

That’s intense. I wish you the best for finding a healthy life with where you don’t attract these losers anymore.

But I don’t think it’s your fault or your patterns that attract these men. Almost all women seem to have such stories. Which implies it’s men not women and their patterns that are the source of this. I genuinely think like 95% upwards of men are abusive on some level.

Some women luck out with the small minority of men who aren’t, but most women either have heaps of experiences with abusive guys and just decide to build a “life” with them as well. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

I think the best way to survive is honestly to really live your life and enjoy yourself. Forget men and throw yourself into sports, hiking, art, music, career, whatever your personal interest is.

So many men try to deal with their own unhappiness by abusing and making the lives of women around them hell. Finally, for the first time in millenias we have the choice to just forget men and live our own lives to a large extent. I think we need to grasp that.