Good to hear that it will be advertised a bit more. I only stumbled upon it after buying a couple other games here.

There's nothing really niche about the space 4x genre. I read a lot of gaming stuff over on reddit and there are tons of people who play 4x's and most of those like space stuff, but very few have even heard of DW. The second hurdle is of course the price. Even at the current discount it's far more expensive than anything else in the genre. It's no surprise something like Stardrive/Sins/Endless Space, all on Steam, all advertised on gaming sites, all for a fraction of the price, are more popular.

That said, I've gotten my dollars worth out of it, and won't be buying any other space strategy type of game since nothing else can really compete.

I would not say niche as its a space 4x but not as shallow as endless space. If there is one thing endless space has done right in my humble opinion, its the fact that I love how they did a background story for the races and events and I really "feel" them and its how space games should give their race/events stories and background, other than that the game is just too shallow for my taste.

I reckon that DW is just not mainstream enough like those games displayed on steam that most people just heard about it. Now this reminded me of a funny story, Someone asked at gamefaqs if there are strategy games that are better than Total war and I was like there are a lot and mentioned distant worlds, Europa Universalis 3, Dominions 3, Crusader Kings 2, etc that were great games but sort of only known in its own circle of people. The poster just said what the heck are those games and he/she haven't heard any of those. I just told him/her that the serious strategist have their own secret circles and games that are only known to them and its really a great game.

I am hoping a lot of people would see how beautiful DW is though. Its just a thing of beauty and as far as I know there is not a single space 4x game that gives me a DW feeling. I consider it to be a space game equivalent to Paradox grand strategies.

ORIGINAL: parkas3 It matters a lot. It means bigger community and more extensive modding. It also means more revenue for Codeforce and faster developement of patches/expansions/DW2. Games like Crusader Kings II, EU sell great despite being complex and pretty ugly. Look at Minecraft, it has very bad graphics and earned millions. I play very different games, from Dirt 3 to Distant Worlds (including Paradox titles) there are many people like me. Problem is I found DW by accident after researching 4x games, not by reading gaming sites.

To be fair, you can't quite compare EU3 and CK2 to DW. EU3 and now CK2 are Paradox main games, and they are Paradox most simple and easy games. While it can be hard and daunting to play a small nation at first, it becomes easy fast. Victoria 2 and Hearts of Iron 3 on the other hand are much more complex games and for that fact they receive somewhat less attention than CK or EU. East Vs West, for examples, which promises to be an awesome game has been delayed so it not launch close to EU4, Paradox next big game.

While I do agree it's not a niche game, I also share the worry that other forumites have that to appeal to a wider audience, you'd have to take away complexity, one of the game main highlights.

It actually is marketed quite a bit, though I understand that you may not be seeing the marketing. Now that Shadows is released, there will be much more in terms of paid advertising and other marketing to raise awareness. We've made preview builds available to all members of the press and review sites as well as players who've made Let's Play videos, etc. for about six weeks before release, sent out several press releases with batches of screenshots, preview video, features, and so on. We find that paid advertising/marketing is more effective once a release is available - before release we try to raise awareness through other means.

Regards,

- Erik

Hmm Erik,

Let me start by saying this game is not a multiplayer or an MMO. So us gamers do not really have a vested interest in marketing your game to others. Other than have you seen this great game, to your buddies.

That being said I love 4X games. And space games in general. I started with Stars! and VGA planets. I have played lots of space games since including the latest EVE. I frequently search the internet for info on games I like to play to find out more about the game I am playing or about other games I might like. I can tell you Eric I have never before heard about this game. Distant Worlds has never crossed my radar in any form ever. Never saw any adds nothing. I never even stumbled across a lets play on you tube till I searched for them specifically.

Now you might wonder how I found out about this game? Well I went to matrix games looking for info on Harpoon an old game I had to see if there was a remake of it. And I found out there is on your website. And I found a bunch of other games Grigsby's second front series and other war games and this game Distant worlds which I bought and love it. In fact I am the type of player that loves all of these type of games which just fell off the Earth or so I thought. But now I found them all at Matrix games. It is home to many games I like. Which I never new until recently. And I consider myself better than most at finding good games via internet searches.

I will bottom line it for you. There are a lot of older generation gamers that love these type games out there. But most do not have the time to search the internet to even find matrix games. Most do not know you guys exist. So what ever marketing you are doing is not working to reach your target audience. That would be me. I never saw and still have never seen any marketing of Distant Worlds anywhere I frequent on the internet.

The spill over onto other forums about matrix games or Distant Worlds is also non existent. I wish more people knew about this place and would have clued me in a long time ago. Happy I am home now. But had to stumble my way here on my own. Take this feedback for what it is worth. I hope it does you some good.

For example track EVE advertisements on the internet. You guys should be having some market presence in those same places. World of Tanks is another one. The matrix war games will sell well to that crowd if they knew about you. So Matrix should advertise in those World of Tanks locations as well.

You can lower the price of original DW all you want now and it probably won't matter because, frankly, original DW is a drag to play. I would suggest to stop selling DW as a standalone and roll the first 2 expansions into it officially, because without the enhancements they provide the game will turn players off to the series. The price should be more reasonable too, because you won't attract new players with big budget pricing on a game with graphics from the 20th century.

Don't get me wrong, I love this game and have been on board from the beginning... but the sad truth is that it had a very rough start and the original DW is still highly flawed (personally I would not recommend original DW to anybody); and the game as a whole doesn't have a fantastic presentation. For most gamers "problems fixed in expansions" is not going to justify the pricetag.

I will also agree with what the guy above me said about marketing. If you're only interested in attracting diehard 4x fans then good job because the only reason I know about DW is because I frequent a couple of forums dedicated to space sims. I'm certain that I've never seen an actual ad for the game, despite spending unhealthy amounts of time browsing gaming sites, forums and YouTube.

I'm sure this post isn't going to change anything but I hope the feedback was at least considered.

From my short time here with DW, I agree with FerretStyle's post. I'd bundle it up into a "gold" version of some kind, present it at a reasonable price and get this sucker up on Steam asap. There is a market for this kind of game but they have to know it exists first! Then if you are feeling adventuresome get DW 2 going, even using Kickstarter if you need too, you might be pleasantly surprised by the results.

I have both DW and Endless Space, and IMHO DW is a better game. I have nothing against Steam, since I have as many games there as I do on Matrix (about 30 games each). I haven't played Endless Space for a long while, but I remember not playing it for very long before putting it aside. I only bought DW when the Shadows expansion came out, and I had not bought the original because I had the wrong impression that it was too much micromanagement (I never really got into MOO for that reason). Perhaps the advertisements should insist on the fact that one can automate AS MUCH of the game as one wishes - that is what I probably missed.What is difficult to convey in advertisements is how DW, contrary to most (if not all) other 4X games, is the wide variety of strategies possible, and that fast expansion is not always the best strategy and can even be fatal.

Perhaps a demo and a walkthrough tutorial with short fixed objectives could help a lot: for example a tutorial on how to find resources, one on how to colonize, one on how to prepare an invasion and so on (I could use some of them myself).

The videos are a GREAT help, but the problem may be to get potential buyers to look at them.What could be useful for beginners is a tight list of recommended tutorial videos and the order in which they should be watched. The problem is that this list could become obsolete very fast.

ORIGINAL: AstroCat I'd bundle it up into a "gold" version of come kind, present it at a reasonable price and get this sucker up on Steam asap.

*facepalm*

You really don't think that would drive sales and awareness of this game in a very positive way? I am sure it would, 100%.

It's been argued ad nauseum. It's not a good deal for Matrix and Code Force. Erik (et al) has discussed distribution with Steam and concluded it was not in their interest.

Regardless of your 100% certainty, Erik has examined the business prospects of Steam distribution with full knowledge of all the facts available to reach his decision. He is less certain. Unless you have new information, I suggest the topic join the all-too-fresh hole which is filled with horse-meat hamburger (not a European meat quality allusion) and broken, worn out whips.

_____________________________

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens

Well being new to the DW scene, I was not aware it's an old discussion around here, although I did assume I couldn't have been the first to bring it up. Whatever works best for the success of DW is what I would support, although I'm still convinced Steam would be a great fit for a game like DW. But of course I'm just a player of the game and not anywhere close to those who have a real monetary vested stake in the game. So whatever works for them is best.

Well being new to the DW scene, I was not aware it's an old discussion around here, although I did assume I couldn't have been the first to bring it up. Whatever works best for the success of DW is what I would support, although I'm still convinced Steam would be a great fit for a game like DW. But of course I'm just a player of the game and not anywhere close to those who have a real monetary vested stake in the game. So whatever works for them is best.

It's come up again and again and again. Here's one thread - there are many more. They all follow much the same pattern. Basically it starts with someone calling for Steam distribution and promising a veritable cornucopia of cash and sales. That's followed by people (usually me and a few others) asking for them to cite their sources and cost-benefit analyses. A few more pipe in about the alleged land of milk and honey that Steam is for gaming companies. Which is again confronted by calls for sources and plans. It goes back and forth with no sources cited, not a single profit analysis - and degrades into a flame war... and Erik finally locks the thread.

Not very interesting, unless you find assertions without any proof or analysis to be funny. In which case, they're an absolute gas.

_____________________________

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens

I am not going to take the time to do your marketing research but I promise you there is a reason Steam is a success and boon for many indie and smaller game developers. If you look yourself you'll find some of the information you are looking for. And, the last thing I read they were still keeping an open mind towards Steam and other distribution sources, GoG perhaps.

AstroCat, you are fighting against the orthodoxy of this board, because many of the members who are arguing against Steam don't like the service at all to begin with, so they would be very hard to convince that having that platform selling this game would be of benefit. For example, Kayoz was very critical of Steam as a platform in the past, and he is well within his rights to do so.

Some also mistake Steam and Steamworks, which are two related, but different things (one is the store where people want to buy the game instead of Matrix so that it is in their library), the other is if every copy of the game required Steam, which I don't think anyone is really arguing for).

I don't think anyone is saying that everyone should be forced to use Steam or any other digital platform. I think people just would like the option.

I used to be very much like Kayoz, and it was just a few years ago that I would have totally been on his side about having discs and the original files... and then I started using Steam a bit more and I've totally changed my mind about that particular service because it makes it easier to manage my library of games, expansions and DLC.

I don't know if Matrix is still selling their games in brick and mortar retail outlets, but if I am to believe Eurogamer about the percentage of profits that publishers generally get from selling in those locations (30% but that is for console titles), that seems like a much lower figure than the much bandied about ~70% that the publisher gets from Steam. If I took the LA Times/OnLive's word for it, the publisher is pulling in $27 from a $60 boxed retail game or 45%.

And I think the reason why people keep bringing up the impact on sales that just being on Steam has is due to the fact that there are many, many stories about sales figures for games that include numerical data. I am going to start with two for now since this is getting to be a long post for this thread. For instance, when you look at the first 6 months of sales for The Witcher 2, it sold 240,000 copies. 195K of those sales were from Steam. The other 45K were from GoG.com (which is run by the company that released the game and sold 35K of that remainder) and the other digital distribution sites, all of whom were selling it DRM-free. When given the choice, 81% of people chose to buy it from Steam over a DRM-free version, which in GoG.com's case was even more egregious because their version had additional content that the Steam version still does not even at this moment.

AI War Fleet Command is a niche space title that Matrix distributes as well that isn't just doing a little bit of business... it is doing extremely well because of Steam. And given the fact that the revenues that Arcen is making on that game (especially those generated by the massive sales on the title they regularly have) is not only fueling development of additional content for that title but also partially funding new projects, why wouldn't someone who sees that happening for one developer in the Matrix stable, especially after you've also seen the initial sales figures for competing 4X games that were released relatively recently.

Of course, I am pretty sure that everything that I've just said has been said elsewhere on this forum so I am going to stop for the moment.

I am not going to take the time to do your marketing research but I promise you there is a reason Steam is a success and boon for many indie and smaller game developers. If you look yourself you'll find some of the information you are looking for. And, the last thing I read they were still keeping an open mind towards Steam and other distribution sources, GoG perhaps.

Maybe so, but then you lose customers like me who refuse to use STEAM and be forced to use online DRM to play my single player games. I like Matrix Games business model just like it is, I buy my game, type in my serial code and I play the game. No DRM checks, no not being able to play if I lose internet, no having to worry about Wi-Fi if I installed it to a laptop.

Also, I don't mind paying more if it means I'm not treated like a criminal even when I've done nothing wrong (IE Always Online DRM).

ORIGINAL: historyis I used to be very much like Kayoz, and it was just a few years ago that I would have totally been on his side about having discs and the original files...

Just to clarify my position...

It's a business decision whether or not Matrix decides to use Steam. I don't have the market/business information necessary to comment on what's right or wrong with Matrix's decision. I'd prefer if they didn't - but my personal preference is irrelevant. They should do what is financially most rewarding for them and Code Force.

_____________________________

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens

Maybe so, but then you lose customers like me who refuse to use STEAM and be forced to use online DRM to play my single player games. I like Matrix Games business model just like it is, I buy my game, type in my serial code and I play the game. No DRM checks, no not being able to play if I lose internet, no having to worry about Wi-Fi if I installed it to a laptop.

Also, I don't mind paying more if it means I'm not treated like a criminal even when I've done nothing wrong (IE Always Online DRM).

Well... Steam doesn't require you to be online, so there goes that argument. Most games that aren't designed exclusively for Steam can be launched just by running the executable directly from the steamapps folder, too (alternately, you can launch it and then close Steam and keep playing).

I used to hate Steam, and then I spent 5 minutes figuring out how to fix the problems I had with it. Now it's great.

Maybe so, but then you lose customers like me who refuse to use STEAM and be forced to use online DRM to play my single player games. I like Matrix Games business model just like it is, I buy my game, type in my serial code and I play the game. No DRM checks, no not being able to play if I lose internet, no having to worry about Wi-Fi if I installed it to a laptop.

Also, I don't mind paying more if it means I'm not treated like a criminal even when I've done nothing wrong (IE Always Online DRM).

Again. If the game was on Steam, that doesn't mean you have to have anything to do with Steam. Steam the storefront, where SOME people would be able to buy it is separate from Steamworks.

In this scenario, your DRM-free version that you bought here at Matrix exists and always will. No one is suggesting denying you that version and you would be completely free to never use Steam. So in no way does a version being made available on Steam negatively affect your ability to play the game DRM-free because again, the game being on Steam does not automatically mean that it is also Steamworks.

Put it this way, when AI War and Unity of Command started being sold on Steam, Matrix and other digital retailers didn't suddenly start making you play those games on Steam. Most games that are on Steam are available in DRM-free versions (or use some other DRM scheme instead).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kayoz I'd prefer if they didn't

Now, just out of curiosity, if Matrix happened to one day make the business decision to make their titles available on Steam, but you never had to install it, use it or have any dealings with that business... it was just an additional venue that their games were available at, would you still find it objectionable and if so why?

Because I do understand the objection if you HAD to use Steam... there are a few games I won't buy because they are on Origin and I refuse use that service. But if you don't have to use Steam and someone else wants to, then how is that negatively affecting you and your enjoyment of your DRM-free version of these games.

ORIGINAL: historyis Now, just out of curiosity, if Matrix happened to one day make the business decision to make their titles available on Steam, but you never had to install it, use it or have any dealings with that business... it was just an additional venue that their games were available at, would you still find it objectionable and if so why?

Why not? I said I would prefer not to use Steam, but I did not put my foot down and absolutely refuse to purchase a game from a publisher/developer that chooses to use Steam. I do have some Steam games. All bought and paid for. I simply added no-Steam cracks, which is legal where I live.

If it's optional, I would take the non-Steam alternative, of course.

I'm not sure what you mean by "objectionable". If I don't have to deal with Steam - then why would it be objectionable? If you say that I must wear a black suit or whatever I choose - and I don't like black suits - then why would I bothered with the choice, much less if some people choose to wear a black suit?

quote:

ORIGINAL: historyis But if you don't have to use Steam and someone else wants to, then how is that negatively affecting you and your enjoyment of your DRM-free version of these games.

My enjoyment would be unaffected. I wouldn't care. If others choose to shackle themselves to Steam out of choice, then so be it. I'd simply pay my money to whatever vendor is offering a Steam-free version.

_____________________________

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens

Maybe so, but then you lose customers like me who refuse to use STEAM and be forced to use online DRM to play my single player games. I like Matrix Games business model just like it is, I buy my game, type in my serial code and I play the game. No DRM checks, no not being able to play if I lose internet, no having to worry about Wi-Fi if I installed it to a laptop.

Also, I don't mind paying more if it means I'm not treated like a criminal even when I've done nothing wrong (IE Always Online DRM).

Steam does not actually require you to be online, even for Steamworks enabled games. If you are offline, or simply do not wish to connect to the Steam servers (for whatever reason), then you can run Steam in offline mode. You only lose access to Steamworks features and other server-based features (chat, achievements, cloud saves, etc), but not your games.

My enjoyment would be unaffected. I wouldn't care. If others choose to shackle themselves to Steam out of choice, then so be it. I'd simply pay my money to whatever vendor is offering a Steam-free version.

I think my confusion was due to the fact that when you said "I'd prefer if they didn't," it sounded like you were categorically stating that you preferred that they never have anything to do with selling on Steam rather than you preferred that they not force you to use it, and since I took your earlier statement as the former rather than latter, it made me curious about that stance.

Sometimes it is easy to read more into 5 words than are there, and if I have misinterpreted your feelings, then I apologize.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ucchedavada

Steam does not actually require you to be online, even for Steamworks enabled games. If you are offline, or simply do not wish to connect to the Steam servers (for whatever reason), then you can run Steam in offline mode. You only lose access to Steamworks features and other server-based features (chat, achievements, cloud saves, etc), but not your games.

Again, the game being available on Steam would not prevent the current version of the game and its expansions from being sold here. It isn't a zero-sum game, a case of it being one or the other. It would be a state of both existing.

Now, is anyone troubled that the game has been out for almost 2 weeks and there are still no reviews up... reviews that would entice new players to buy this game while the price point is currently at its most appetizing?

ORIGINAL: AstroCat I am not going to take the time to do your marketing research but I promise you there is a reason Steam is a success and boon for many indie and smaller game developers. If you look yourself you'll find some of the information you are looking for. And, the last thing I read they were still keeping an open mind towards Steam and other distribution sources, GoG perhaps.

Of course it is easy to find indie game success stories, because there are so many games on Steam, and you google specifically for positives. But it's just a small percentage of the games actually on Steam. It doesn't mean your game will be an automatic success just because you put it on Steam.

And you know that Steam has a filter called "greenlight" to sort out indie games that don't have hype and popularity? Which means they only take in games that show a certain amount of following. Noble of Steam, not letting unknown rabble getting in. I mean all those games are probably bad just because they are unknown.

Is there any chance DW will come to Steam? There are some fairly complex and good strategy games like Unity of Command, Hearts of Iron and other Paradox titles that seem to have done well on Steam without any dumbing down.

Again, the game being available on Steam would not prevent the current version of the game and its expansions from being sold here. It isn't a zero-sum game, a case of it being one or the other. It would be a state of both existing.

Oh, I'm not suggesting that DW should become (or would become) a Steam exclusive. I was merely pointing out that the online component is nowhere near as bad as Shark7 seemed to think.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Buio

And you know that Steam has a filter called "greenlight" to sort out indie games that don't have hype and popularity? Which means they only take in games that show a certain amount of following. Noble of Steam, not letting unknown rabble getting in. I mean all those games are probably bad just because they are unknown.

You might be interested in knowing that Gabe Newell agrees with you: gamasutra.com/blogs/JoolsWatsham/20130417/190704/

I was suggesting "in addition to" not "in place of" for the selling of DW. I just can not see the downside of adding a game like this to Steam.

Ok, a simple what if:

Scenario 1: Game is not on Steam. Matrix sell 10 copies of DS at a profit of 1 unit per copy Total Profit = 10 units

Scenario 2: Game is on Steam and available elsewhere. Matrix sell 0 copies of DS via non-Steam sources. Matrix sell 10 copies of DS via Steam at a profit of 0.5 units per copy (Steam's cut being 0.5/copy) Total Profit = 5 units

Yes, I made these numbers up, and this example is simplistic, but the point is that it's very easy to imagine scenarios in which selling on Steam as well as through other sources would reduce your profits. The point is that we do not have the information needed to make a judgement. Presumably Matrix do (I hope!).