He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them. But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion … ...He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.John Stuart Mill

In this sutta the Buddha lays out a gradual path of practice for the householder including developing right livelihood, spending money wisely, faith, generosity, virtue and wisdom that "understands the arising and cessation (of the five aggregates of existence."

In this sutta the Buddha instructs his lay followers to develop the six recollections "while you are walking, while you are standing, while you are sitting, while you are lying down, while you are busy at work, while you are resting in your home crowded with children."

Dhammadinna SuttaNo known online translation

In this sutta the Buddha instructs his lay followers:

"Therefore, Dhammadinna, you should train yourselvesthus: 'From time to time we will enter and dwell upon those discourses spoken by the Tathaagata that are deep, deep in meaninng, suparamundane, dealing with emptiness." It is in such a way that that you should train yourselves."

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them. But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion … ...He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.John Stuart Mill

I havent been able to find an online translation. I copied the above out of my copy of Bodhi's Samyutta Nikaya translation pg. 1833-34.

Here is an abbreviated version of BB translation:

"Let the Blessed One, venerable sir, exhort us and instruct us in a way that may lead to our welfare and happiness for a long time."

"Therefore, Dhammadinna, you should train yourselvesthus:

'From time to time we will enter and dwell upon those discourses spoken by the Tathaagata that are deep, deep in meaninng, suparamundane, dealing with emptiness." It is in such a way that that you should train yourselves."

Dhammadinna then tells the Buddha:

We, Lord, are laymen who enjoy worldly pleasure. We lead a life encumbered by wife and children...[and that it would be difficult for them to meditate on emptiness.]

The Buddha then gives them the five precepts and proclaims all in attendance as being stream enterers.

To study is to know the texts,To practice is to know your defilements,To attain the goal is to know and let go.

On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling atBaranasi in the Deer Park at Isipatana. Then the lay followerDhammadinna, together with five hundred lay followers,approached the Blessed One, paid homage to him, and sat downto one side. Sitting to one side, the lay follower Dhammadinnathen said to the Blessed One: “Let the Blessed One, venerablesir, exhort us and instruct us in a way that may lead to ourwelfare and happiness for a long time.”

"Therefore, Dhammadinna, you should train yourselves thus:‘From time to time we will enter and dwell upon thosediscourses spoken by the Tathagata that are deep, deep inmeaning, supramundane, dealing with emptiness.’ It is in such away that you should train yourselves.”

“Venerable sir, it is not easy for us – dwelling in a homecrowded with children, enjoying Kasian sandalwood, wearinggarlands, scents, and cosmetics, receiving gold and silver – fromtime to time to enter and dwell upon those discourses spoken bythe Tathagata that are deep, deep in meaning, supramundane,dealing with emptiness. As we are established in the five trainingrules, let the Blessed One teach us the Dhamma further.”“Therefore, Dhammadinna, you should train yourselves thus:‘We will possess confirmed confidence in the Buddha... in theDhamma... in the Sangha.... We will possess the virtues dear tothe noble ones, unbroken... leading to concentration.’ It is insuch a way that you should train yourselves.”

“Venerable sir, as to these four factors of stream-entry taught bythe Blessed One, these things exist in us, and we live inconformity with those things. For, venerable sir, we possessconfirmed confidence in the Buddha, the the Dhamma, and theSangha. We possess the virtues dear to the noble ones,unbroken... leading to concentration.”

---The trouble is that you think you have time------Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe------It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

I have heard that at one time the Blessed One was staying at Vesali, in the Peaked Roof Hall in the Great Forest.

Then Mahapajapati Gotami went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, stood to one side. As she was standing there she said to him: "It would be good, lord, if the Blessed One would teach me the Dhamma in brief such that, having heard the Dhamma from the Blessed One, I might dwell alone, secluded, heedful, ardent, & resolute."

"Gotami, the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead to passion, not to dispassion; to being fettered, not to being unfettered; to accumulating, not to shedding; to self-aggrandizement, not to modesty; to discontent, not to contentment; to entanglement, not to seclusion; to laziness, not to aroused persistence; to being burdensome, not to being unburdensome': You may categorically hold, 'This is not the Dhamma, this is not the Vinaya, this is not the Teacher's instruction.'

"As for the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead to dispassion, not to passion; to being unfettered, not to being fettered; to shedding, not to accumulating; to modesty, not to self-aggrandizement; to contentment, not to discontent; to seclusion, not to entanglement; to aroused persistence, not to laziness; to being unburdensome, not to being burdensome': You may categorically hold, 'This is the Dhamma, this is the Vinaya, this is the Teacher's instruction.'"

That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, Mahapajapati Gotami delighted at his words.

"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332

This sutta describes in depth the virtue to be developed by the householder.

The first time I read the section in there about true friends and false friends it brought tears to my eyes -- I was going through a tough time and it really opened my eyes and made me appreciate those who had been there for me, and how I'd hurt myself by being undiscerning and putting my trust in the wrong persons.

Advice on the eight precepts with emphasis on the virtue of the five and not encouraging others to break the five, as well as on the Uposatha, dana to the monks, being dilligent, and attaining a fortunate rebirth among the "shining" devas.

I kinda thought that it was a little strange though, as far as this passage:

"Now I will tell you the layman's duty. Following it a lay-disciple would be virtuous; for it is not possible for one occupied with the household life to realize the complete bhikkhu practice (dhamma).

Of course we know throughout the Canon and the history of the dispensation many laymen and laywomen have attained, but apart from that statement it seems to suggest a good practice for both this life and the next.

Advice on the eight precepts with emphasis on the virtue of the five and not encouraging others to break the five, as well as on the Uposatha, dana to the monks, being dilligent, and attaining a fortunate rebirth among the "shining" devas.

I kinda thought that it was a little strange though, as far as this passage:

"Now I will tell you the layman's duty. Following it a lay-disciple would be virtuous; for it is not possible for one occupied with the household life to realize the complete bhikkhu practice (dhamma).

Of course we know throughout the Canon and the history of the dispensation many laymen and laywomen have attained, but apart from that statement it seems to suggest a good practice for both this life and the next.

Thoughts?

Hi andrew, it maybe better to start a new thread for any thoughts on this particular sutta as it would get more attention that way?but the quoted part is to do with the livelihood and precepts, not the attainments possible, a householder can not live by the rules of the mendicant communities due to the nature of the household life, how would a householder get by without money, or ability to shop for food, or the food requirements needed for certain work?it is in essence saying if you are going to be a mendicant be a mendicant, if you are going to be a lay person be a lay person, sure there are some precepts which can be addopted by lay people but the entire set of rules can not be.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them. But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion … ...He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.John Stuart Mill

Advice on the eight precepts with emphasis on the virtue of the five and not encouraging others to break the five, as well as on the Uposatha, dana to the monks, being dilligent, and attaining a fortunate rebirth among the "shining" devas.

I kinda thought that it was a little strange though, as far as this passage:

"Now I will tell you the layman's duty. Following it a lay-disciple would be virtuous; for it is not possible for one occupied with the household life to realize the complete bhikkhu practice (dhamma).

Of course we know throughout the Canon and the history of the dispensation many laymen and laywomen have attained, but apart from that statement it seems to suggest a good practice for both this life and the next.

Thoughts?

Hi andrew, it maybe better to start a new thread for any thoughts on this particular sutta as it would get more attention that way?but the quoted part is to do with the livelihood and precepts, not the attainments possible, a householder can not live by the rules of the mendicant communities due to the nature of the household life, how would a householder get by without money, or ability to shop for food, or the food requirements needed for certain work?it is in essence saying if you are going to be a mendicant be a mendicant, if you are going to be a lay person be a lay person, sure there are some precepts which can be addopted by lay people but the entire set of rules can not be.

Hi Citta,

I have to take a different interpretation of the statement in question than you. To me, "bhikkhu practice" means the threefold training culminating in liberation, not things like robes, eating donated food and so on. The reason I think this makes sense is because following that statement, the Buddha instructs the lay disciple in this sutta towards the end of being "virtuous" and in addition to the end of attaining a rebirth in the deva plane rather than, and falling short of, liberation. To me, this means he is saying "A layperson cannot complete the threefold training (because the household life impedes it), but, falling short of that, here is what he can do -- be virtuous and attain a heavenly rebirth."

I was pointing out that although we know the tradition says the household life is full of impediments to liberation, it's not impossible to attain it from within said. That's the discrepancy.

Nonetheless, I like the sutta; it's concise and shows how to be virtuous and attain a good (even "shining" or "radiant") rebirth, and I like the parts about dana to the sangha, supporting your parents, and not encouraging others to break the five precepts. Neat.

Just wanted to thank you, Cittasanto, for this thread topic, and Bodom and other participants for your selections. I found the Dhammadinna Sutta particularly inspiring.

Therefore, Dhammadinna, you should train yourselves thus: ‘From time to time we will enter and dwell upon those discourses spoken by the Tathagata that are deep, deep inmeaning, supramundane, dealing with emptiness.’ It is in such a way that you should train yourselves.”

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them. But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion … ...He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.John Stuart Mill

Cittasanto wrote:Hi andrew, it maybe better to start a new thread for any thoughts on this particular sutta as it would get more attention that way?but the quoted part is to do with the livelihood and precepts, not the attainments possible, a householder can not live by the rules of the mendicant communities due to the nature of the household life, how would a householder get by without money, or ability to shop for food, or the food requirements needed for certain work?it is in essence saying if you are going to be a mendicant be a mendicant, if you are going to be a lay person be a lay person, sure there are some precepts which can be addopted by lay people but the entire set of rules can not be.

Hi Citta,

I have to take a different interpretation of the statement in question than you. To me, "bhikkhu practice" means the threefold training culminating in liberation, not things like robes, eating donated food and so on. The reason I think this makes sense is because following that statement, the Buddha instructs the lay disciple in this sutta towards the end of being "virtuous" and in addition to the end of attaining a rebirth in the deva plane rather than, and falling short of, liberation. To me, this means he is saying "A layperson cannot complete the threefold training (because the household life impedes it), but, falling short of that, here is what he can do -- be virtuous and attain a heavenly rebirth."

I was pointing out that although we know the tradition says the household life is full of impediments to liberation, it's not impossible to attain it from within said. That's the discrepancy.

Nonetheless, I like the sutta; it's concise and shows how to be virtuous and attain a good (even "shining" or "radiant") rebirth, and I like the parts about dana to the sangha, supporting your parents, and not encouraging others to break the five precepts. Neat.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them. But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion … ...He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.John Stuart Mill