Zero_Sum wrote:While me and Prismatic don't agree on much as an atheist I also believe that existence of God is impossible in terms of physical evidence existing separate from mind where faith or belief is not grounds of evidence at all.

As a theist, I agree.

Well if that is so, how do you trust and rely on faith alone? That would be my next question.

Zero_Sum wrote:While me and Prismatic don't agree on much as an atheist I also believe that existence of God is impossible in terms of physical evidence existing separate from mind where faith or belief is not grounds of evidence at all.

As a theist, I agree.

Well if that is so, how do you trust and rely on faith alone? That would be my next question.

You don't. Loyal to a fault; if you never doubt your faith, it's not faith and then it becomes faith in your own self, which is just as unreliable, and trust? Some times the only reason we trust is because we have no choice.

It's like relying on just one sense, take eyes, ears, nose, tongue, skin; let's talk about trusting your heart, or your wits, your gut or having a spine; having a pair. Rely on just one alone? What do you rely on when all are knocked out, what then but an invisible hand and what if that doesn't even cover at some times? What is it are you looking for?

(Reality isn't so kind. Everything doesn't work out the way you want it to. That's why...) As long as you don’t get your hopes up, you can take anything... You feel less pain.

(Right and wrong are not what separate us and our enemies. It's our different standpoints, our perspectives that separate us. Both sides blame one another. There's no good or bad side. Just two sides holding different views.)

What do you think? To tell you the truth... I worry too much about what others think of me. I hate that side of me... That's why I didn't want anyone to get to know me. I wanted to hide that side of myself. I hate it.

The Eternal Warrior wrote:You don't. Loyal to a fault; if you never doubt your faith, it's not faith and then it becomes faith in your own self, which is just as unreliable, and trust? Some times the only reason we trust is because we have no choice.

It's like relying on just one sense, take eyes, ears, nose, tongue, skin; let's talk about trusting your heart, or your wits, your gut or having a spine; having a pair. Rely on just one alone? What do you rely on when all are knocked out, what then but an invisible hand and what if that doesn't even cover at some times? What is it are you looking for?

Sounds like blind faith to me, if I am going to believe in anything I need something a bit more to reinforce my belief or commitment.

The Eternal Warrior wrote:You don't. Loyal to a fault; if you never doubt your faith, it's not faith and then it becomes faith in your own self, which is just as unreliable, and trust? Some times the only reason we trust is because we have no choice.

It's like relying on just one sense, take eyes, ears, nose, tongue, skin; let's talk about trusting your heart, or your wits, your gut or having a spine; having a pair. Rely on just one alone? What do you rely on when all are knocked out, what then but an invisible hand and what if that doesn't even cover at some times? What is it are you looking for?

Sounds like blind faith to me, if I am going to believe in anything I need something a bit more to reinforce my belief or commitment.

Honestly, you might be stuck thinking in base terms of a removal of all of these things, which is on the rare occasion and isn't 'blind'. At the point, it's being caught up in the motion of life and living and having it harder to explain how these components come into play during our lives and how we just keep going through whatever gets in our way whether we still feel like victim or survivor, etcetera, many different perceptions and many variations of situations. What I'm explaining is more like relying on all the senses and even the ones you can't and it becomes so much not being able to trust any single one of them or all of them or even any 'new' ones that might come up and having to, anyway.

(Reality isn't so kind. Everything doesn't work out the way you want it to. That's why...) As long as you don’t get your hopes up, you can take anything... You feel less pain.

(Right and wrong are not what separate us and our enemies. It's our different standpoints, our perspectives that separate us. Both sides blame one another. There's no good or bad side. Just two sides holding different views.)

What do you think? To tell you the truth... I worry too much about what others think of me. I hate that side of me... That's why I didn't want anyone to get to know me. I wanted to hide that side of myself. I hate it.

Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic HarmonyElseFrom THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is"..

Zero_Sum wrote:While me and Prismatic don't agree on much as an atheist I also believe that existence of God is impossible in terms of physical evidence existing separate from mind where faith or belief is not grounds of evidence at all.

Snark wrote:

Zero_Sum wrote:While me and Prismatic don't agree on much as an atheist I also believe that existence of God is impossible in terms of physical evidence existing separate from mind where faith or belief is not grounds of evidence at all.

As a theist, I agree.

It is not necessary to be an atheists or an antitheists or a theists in order to know that Prismatic is wrong.

with the right person and to the right degree and at the right time and for the right purpose, and in the right way -

that is not within everybody's power and is not easy. -Aristotle

In the above replace 'angry' with 'faith'.What is critical is 'degree.'

Even with Science which has the highest degree of objectivity and credibility, there is still an element of faith but in very low degrees, say 1-2%. The laymen [who did not participate in the proving] who trust the Scientists' theory use a higher degree of faith [say 20%] that Scientific theories are true.

OTOH, with theists [in psychological desperation] it is 99.9999% faith in their belief in a God-as-real when in fact God is an impossibility and there no need even to initiate any hypothesis to prove it.

I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.

God is impossible in terms of physical evidence existing separate from mind where faith or belief is not grounds of evidence at all

This is true: physical evidence is impossible due to the very nature of evidence. Faith or belief is not evidence, either, but I don't need evidence to conclude my toe hurts when it hurts.

How do you know your pain is not imaginary?

Recent studies have shown that pain-related areas of the brain can be activated without any injury -- only through verbal cues that create "psychological" or imaginary pain, writes researcher Tuukka T. Raij, MD, with the brain research unit at the Helsinki University of Technology in Finland.https://www.webmd.com/pain-management/n ... gined-pain

Faith and beliefs [unjustified] are never credible and reliable.Would you accept if a prosecutor [in a court] has faith and believed you are a murderer, rapists, and the likes?

I understand theism is a critical necessity for the majority at present [not future] and there are no easy alternatives at the present to deal with the inherent unavoidable existential crisis.Theism is not a significant issues if theists keep their faith and beliefs private and personal.

But theism and theists as a whole has the potential and had already committed the most abominable evils. This is because of certain [real to theists] God[s] deliver commands in holy books via messengers that contain evil laden elements [per evidences] that inspire SOME natural evil prone theists to commit terrible evils and violence on non-believers [glaring evidence].

These real terrible evils committed on non-believers and others and the potential of theism [re Islam] to exterminate the human species is grounded on what? - answer: a made-belief illusory God that is an impossibility.

The above are the reasons why humanity must critique and question theism.

I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.

PerfectionNo one has ever seen a perfect circle, nor a perfectly straight line, yet everyone knows what a circle and a straight line are. Plato utilizes the tool-maker's blueprint as evidence that Forms are real:[38]

... when a man has discovered the instrument which is naturally adapted to each work, he must express this natural form, and not others which he fancies, in the material ....

Perceived circles or lines are not exactly circular or straight, and true circles and lines could never be detected since by definition they are sets of infinitely small points. But if the perfect ones were not real, how could they direct the manufacturer?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of ... Perfection

I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.

If, as stated in P1, absolute perfection is impossible, then it must be impossible that the given proof is valid, because any truly valid proof is a perfect proof and thus must be impossible.

Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic HarmonyElseFrom THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is"..

Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic HarmonyElseFrom THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is"..

Absolutely, my syllogism is not absolutely [totally unconditioned] perfect because it is conditioned by the rules of logic and syllogism construction.

My syllogism is perfect within the rules of the framework of logic, syllogism construction, rational and philosophical.

My perfect [relative] syllogism is sufficient to rule out the possibility of the existence of an absolutely perfect God within empirical-rational reality. It proves the idea of God is a moot, a non-starter and an impossibility within empirical-rational reality.

I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.

Prismatic567 wrote:My syllogism is perfect within the rules of the framework of logic, syllogism construction, rational and philosophical.

Not even close. You cannot use unproven premises. And of course, you can't use nonsense phrases for statements either.

You proof is invalid from the get-go.

Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic HarmonyElseFrom THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is"..

Note that there is no conditional, but there is a "description of an ideal". So we are back to the fact that your definitions are screwy.

When I first explained that to you, you refused it, saying that such a definition involving an ideal is only "conditional". And yet right there from your own reference, it clearly states "absolute".

And as explained to you long ago, there is no "absolutely perfect" because that is redundant;

"absolutely conforming absolutely to the description of an ideal".

Nor is there a "conditionally perfect" as that would be an oxymoron;

"conditionally conforming absolutely to the description of an ideal."

But beyond that, the term "absolute perfection" has no descriptor or ideal mentioned. It is an incomplete thought. And thus certainly not a definition of anything.

So when you say,

"P1- Absolute perfection is impossible"

You have made a nonsense statement (as was explanation to you from the beginning). It is like saying;

"P1- Absolutely Larger than is impossible"

The first premise that you give is false

"P1- Absolute perfection is impossible"

And even if it made sense, you would not be able to prove it to be true. It would still be an invalid premise.

Thus your syllogism is INVALID.

And all of this was explained to you long ago. But now even YOU provided a correct definition which shows WHY you have been wrong this entire time.[/quote]

Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic HarmonyElseFrom THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is"..

Note that there is no conditional, but there is a "description of an ideal". So we are back to the fact that your definitions are screwy.

You are trying to pull a fast one here.I have highlighted your deception on this before.Why are you relying on only one meaning when there are so many other meanings, some which are relevant to the point?

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/perfectPerfectadjective1. conforming absolutely to the description or definition of an ideal type:a perfect sphere; a perfect gentleman.2. excellent or complete beyond practical or theoretical improvement:There is no perfect legal code. The proportions of this temple are almost perfect.3. exactly fitting the need in a certain situation or for a certain purpose:a perfect actor to play Mr. Micawber; a perfect saw for cutting out keyholes.4. entirely without any flaws, defects, or shortcomings:a perfect apple; the perfect crime.5. accurate, exact, or correct in every detail:a perfect copy.6. thorough; complete; utter:perfect strangers.7. pure or unmixed:perfect yellow.8. unqualified; absolute:He has perfect control over his followers.9. expert; accomplished; proficient:She will need a perfect driving teacher.10. unmitigated; out-and-out; of an extreme degree:He made a perfect fool of himself.

The highlighted meanings above are relevant to my use of 'perfect' in relation to God.

When I first explained that to you, you refused it, saying that such a definition involving an ideal is only "conditional". And yet right there from your own reference, it clearly states "absolute".

Explain what?Where I disagreed is because you are off point like the above where you refer 'perfect' to ONLY one meaning.

And as explained to you long ago, there is no "absolutely perfect" because that is redundant;

"absolutely conforming absolutely to the description of an ideal".

Nor is there a "conditionally perfect" as that would be an oxymoron;

"conditionally conforming absolutely to the description of an ideal."

But beyond that, the term "absolute perfection" has no descriptor or ideal mentioned. It is an incomplete thought. And thus certainly not a definition of anything.

As I had highlighted many times, perfection can be relative or absolute.Relative perfection is like perfect score in diving, ten pin bowling, gymnastic and other expressions of 'perfection' that are conditioned to a set of criteria or framework.

As for God which is claimed to of the utmost, any perfection or overall perfection attributed to God cannot be the same as those attributed to humans [fallible and conditional] thus whatever is attributed to God has to be totally unconditional - absolute, thus God is absolutely perfect and I had explained why God must be absolutely perfect to avoid kissing the arse of another more inferior God.

So when you say,

"P1- Absolute perfection is impossible"

You have made a nonsense statement (as was explanation to you from the beginning). It is like saying;

"P1- Absolutely Larger than is impossible"

Absolutely perfect is can only be thought of and reasoned using primal reasoning.Because an absolutely perfect god can only be based on reason, it is impossible for the idea of absolutely perfect [which God must be] to be real within an empirical-rational reality.What is wrong with this logic?

The first premise that you give is false

"P1- Absolute perfection is impossible"

As argued above, what is wrong with this premise?

And even if it made sense, you would not be able to prove it to be true. It would still be an invalid premise.

Thus your syllogism is INVALID.

And all of this was explained to you long ago. But now even YOU provided a correct definition which shows WHY you have been wrong this entire time.

I have proven it to be rationally true by reason. As I had defended above, I was not wrong but you were actually deceptive in ignoring the many other related and relevant meanings of 'perfect' above.It is me who raised the argument and premises, so it is up to me to decide what are the relevant meanings re 'perfect' not you. You can critique my interpretation but as above your critique is way off and using deception.

Since 'God is an impossibility' as proven true based on reason, it is a moot and a non-starter even to be considered as a hypothesis for empirical-rational reality. Thus there is no need to prove God is true and real within empirical-rational reality.

You keep imagining your are right and on target to prove my premises are invalid, but based on the above you are way off point.

Try again.

I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.

Prismatic567 wrote:Why are you relying on only one meaning when there are so many other meanings, some which are relevant to the point?

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/perfectPerfectadjective1. conforming absolutely to the description or definition of an ideal type:a perfect sphere; a perfect gentleman.2. excellent or complete beyond practical or theoretical improvement:There is no perfect legal code. The proportions of this temple are almost perfect.3. exactly fitting the need in a certain situation or for a certain purpose:a perfect actor to play Mr. Micawber; a perfect saw for cutting out keyholes.4. entirely without any flaws, defects, or shortcomings:a perfect apple; the perfect crime.5. accurate, exact, or correct in every detail:a perfect copy.6. thorough; complete; utter:perfect strangers.7. pure or unmixed:perfect yellow.8. unqualified; absolute:He has perfect control over his followers.9. expert; accomplished; proficient:She will need a perfect driving teacher.10. unmitigated; out-and-out; of an extreme degree:He made a perfect fool of himself.

The highlighted meanings above are relevant to my use of 'perfect' in relation to God.

All of those defining clauses are meant to agree. Why are you leaving out the two that contradict your nonsense claim? You are trying to use a limited clause so as to deceive the reader into nonsense.

Again,

Your syllogism is a deception, invalid.Apparently intentional now.

Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic HarmonyElseFrom THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is"..

James S Saint wrote:All of those defining clauses are meant to agree. Why are you leaving out the two that contradict your nonsense claim? You are trying to use a limited clause so as to deceive the reader into nonsense.

Again,

Your syllogism is a deception, invalid.Apparently intentional now.

Again you are insulting your own intelligence.Dictionaries provide a range of meanings to a word and some can related within a set and some can be totally contrasting and not related at all.E.g. "Gay" which could mean

1. homosexuality or 2. being lively, joyful

Therefore for any meaning one has to choose those that are related my intended meaning.

Why are you leaving out the two that contradict your nonsense claim? You are trying to use a limited clause so as to deceive the reader into nonsense.

Which two?The highlighted ones in blue?If so, not I did not leave them out in my earlier post, I did highlight them in bold.

As for the other meanings, they are not very relevant, e.g. 7 [umixed] and 9. But in this case, I can assign them to God in some ways without any contradiction.

I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.

By your own definition of "Truth", "intersubjective consensus", you are wrong because everyone here agrees that you are wrong.

Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic HarmonyElseFrom THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is"..

By your own definition of "Truth", "intersubjective consensus", you are wrong because everyone here agrees that you are wrong.

Everyone?? where is the proof?

Even if it is every one here [10+ or so posters] I am not bothered as long as my argument is rational and sound and has consensus [intersubjectively] within the greater philosophical community i.e. the giants and members of Western, Eastern, etc.

If Copernicus had succumbed to the 'truths' of the majority, we may still be believing the Sun physically revolves around the Earth.

I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.

Prismatic567 wrote:Even if it is every one here [10+ or so posters] I am not bothered as long as my argument is sound and has consensus [intersubjectively] within the greater philosophical community i.e. the giants and members of Western, Eastern, etc.

Oh, oh, I see. So do you have the poll of that exclusive community so as to prove that you are holy and right?

As long as you are here and saying those same things, HERE you are going to be wrong.

But you are correct in that YOU don't care.

We have all seen how arrogant and narcissistic you are with your sermons.

Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic HarmonyElseFrom THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is"..

By your own definition of "Truth", "intersubjective consensus", you are wrong because everyone here agrees that you are wrong.

As I had said many times, your philosophical views as posted here are very shallow and narrow.E.g. there are 10 meanings of 'perfect' in the dictionary, but you prefer the narrow and shallow path of merely choosing only one when there are so many related meanings which I had intended to use.

And as I told you, everyone one of those defining clauses are meant to agree. They are not different uses for the same word, merely varied ways of explaining it. You attempt to leave out the two that clarify the issue because they prove you wrong.

Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic HarmonyElseFrom THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is"..