No offense, but I don't think speed is the issue it's feel and showmanship, Feel being something that Virgil Lacks. I think that speed is something that can be mstered easier these days... look at the WFD competitions you got guys who you have never heard of scoring pretty high in the speed category. The drummers mentioned above have speed.

Your take on speed is right on the money.. but saying that Virgil Donati lacks feel is a ridiculous statement. If you judge all of his work, then you should see that somewhere down the line that Virgil has feel.

Someone claiming either Virgil is only about speed (or about speed at all) or he lacks feel or doesn't groove just can't be taken serious in a discussion, period. At this level musically spoken it's all about taste, and technically spoken he is definitely top notch :D!

Why is it that it is reguarded as being "unmusical" to play complicated music? Odd time signatures and polyrhythms are viewed upon as unatural, mathematical and pathetic for listening use. The truth of the matter is, it is more musical to play these complex patterns.

Now I realised a statement like that obviously seems barbaric, so let me explain. People listen to the complicated rhythms and say they are unmusical, but as a matter of fact, they use more music theory, knowledge and understanding to play, composed and execute them perfectly. Why is it that old Joe playing in the pub down the road has more feel then a giant like Virgil because he plays what every other drummer plays, that laid back groove. So many of you "groove guys" look at the same grooves over and over and think, "wow, he is so musical." But the problem is most of these grooves are unoriginal, have been played thousands of times over and generally playable in the hands of 2-4 year drummers (years playing, that is.) Obvious exceptions include Garibaldi, Weckl, and Colauita.

So when Virgil Donati comes onto a stage and plays rhythms with stick twirling showmanship and vast musical techniques such as dynamics, rhythmic modulating, accents, contrast and multiple tempos, he is not being unmusical. He is pushing the conceptual view of what drums are meant to do to other drummers. People state, "you couldn't put a song to what he plays." Well of course not, its a drum solo. That entitles the artist to perform what ever he or she wishes.

Added to this, those of you- Particularly Finn, advise us, "I have listened to his stuff, the videos and the planet x blah blah. He doesn't groove." Look at some of the videos of him playing with Steve Vai or Tina Arena. He completely lays back and lets the leads shine while he compliments the music with subtlety. But the interesting thing is, even though he is playing that simple, uncomplicated, repetitious (these are all the words that apparently make something musical) groove, you can still tell its Virgil Donati playing. And its because he has gone further beyond the ballistic patterns and phrases to also create himself a unique sound, the true work of a musician.

So please, before the comments come rolling back saying, "but... it would sound better as a drum machine/ this stuff should be left offstage etc." really think about what I have just said. What Virgil is playing is a very fine genre of music. It is not popular, nor is it widely accepted by even drummers (the head of rhythm), but because of its mathematics it is unmusical? Maths, science and music were considered the same thing in ancient greece!

Virgil is pushing the limits of music. If it isn't your taste to listen to the music then fair enough, but to say that a man who has been globally recognised for pushing the boundaries of music isn't very musical, that seems pretty absurd, doesn't it?

Anyone remember the Southern Sons?? (Mediocre Aussie oufit in the early 90's). No odd time signatures or complex polyrythms there......yet Virgil was musical as hell playing with them. In fact, he was the ONLY reason I decided to see them live.

Yep, there's not a lot Virg can't do. His technicality is mind blowing, but I've never seen cause to doubt his musicality either. Seen him live a couple of times.....the man has got the goods!!

Interesting point, Ben.
I still think guys who flame Virgil the most only know bits of his playing from drum clinics and solo performances. Besides being hard to follow in this situations, I can understand musicians who don't see that as specifically "musical", as I suppose meant in the sense of "telling" something, including tension and release phrases, overall dynamics etc. Even as a big fan of Virgil's I have to say, those alien solo performances lack a bit of those things. He could lay down more accessible performances by playing simple grooves and forms, and build up to complicated stuff from there. He could approach it more as a "telling stories" thing.
But for the record, I second: Virgil has great groove, sense of time and sense of musicality. And he has absolutely no problem playing simple 2 and 4 beats, as he states himself, and as he's proven a lot.

I picked up his latest DVD of a clinc in Portugal as part of a bootleg series. I have to say, I love watching him playing along to the PlanetX stuff, I really love Matrix Gate, Poland and Kingdom of Dreams.

People who flame Virgil are morons. He was the greatest teacher I ever had and I saw him play many many styles. When any of these idiot flamers play with someone like Steve Vai and Frank Sinatra, maybe then I'll pay attention.

Until then they are just a joke.

Sadly the world is overly populated by try hards and jealous fools. Never mind. They do not matter.

But for the record, I second: Virgil has great groove, sense of time and sense of musicality. And he has absolutely no problem playing simple 2 and 4 beats, as he states himself, and as he's proven a lot.

May I just add - now that you mention that - one thing people do tend to forget is Virgil's level of mastery in regards to time keeping. He knows how all of his complicated patterns, modulation etc. all relate to each other on a level that I have not see many other drummers display. He can start grooving at a given tempo, modulate all over the place and come back to that tempo he started at. He really excels at this and he does master time in that sense.

__________________
"Absorb what is useful, discard what is not, add what is uniquely your own."
- Bruce Lee

A friend sent me a youtube link of Southern Sons and that was it. I became a fan instantly. The music was so good and the fact that made it better was that Mr. Donati was at the helm :) To bad they split.

I've ordered his "Double Bass Drum Freedom" and can't wait for it to arrive!

EDIT
I have it now. Haven't started working on it yet but I've read one third of it - great material for countless practice hours. Really tricky stuff the more you progress into the book. I like his symmetrical approach to the feet, encouraging to practice left foot lead, but also switching between main and x-hat / cross-handed vs. open style. Exactly to my taste.

A friend sent me a youtube link of Southern Sons and that was it. I became a fan instantly. The music was so good and the fact that made it better was that Mr. Donati was at the helm :) To bad they split.

lol. This brings back memories. Saw them twice......never cared for the band or their music, but couldn't wait to see Virg do his thing on both occasions. It's rare I go to see any band I'm not into just to see a single member, but that is the drawing power of Donati I guess.

And to think I was reading in another thread recently where someone said he was too complicated to just "lay it down"......obviously they never saw Southern Sons. :-)

Hey guys. I'm the one that put in the other thread that Virgil "couldn't lay it down." That was not my opinion, I was just relaying what a guitar player that had played with Virgil a few times told me. That was his opinion. That was also a long time ago. Virgil would have been in his 20's at that point. Just like the rest of us, I'm sure he overplayed when he was younger. I don't think I've ever heard Virgil play anything other than little solo clips on YouTube. I don't have an opinion on his groove playing one way or another.

Hey guys. I'm the one that put in the other thread that Virgil "couldn't lay it down." That was not my opinion, I was just relaying what a guitar player that had played with Virgil a few times told me.

Fair enough. I just reread the post. I note he was talking in the context of a country gig. Never heard Donati play country so perhaps he was unsuited. Can't imagine it as he's a pretty well rounded player.....even back then. Was sought after on the local scene for many years before he cracked it internationally because of it.....much of it around the time frame your guitarist was talking about. But still, I wasn't there so who am I to doubt him.

But yeah, lay it down simply he can certainly do. I've heard too many recordings of Oz artists where Virgil played the sessions to believe otherwise. Straight 4/4, top 40 pop/rock....not a polyrhythm or other complicated pattern to be found. :-)

+1
It's a shame such a superb drummer is bashed - and in his own thread. Why don't those grumblers just save their time & energy and stay away from this thread?

He's playing at a level 99.9 % of us will never be. Arts - and music being an element of it - is always subjective. It's just so pointless to elaborate in detail why person x doesn't like what person y does. Go find drummers you like more and praise them on the respective threads.

If I were Bernhard I would apply a firmer hand. He shows A LOT of patience with some guys here.

Forgive me, I have been playing drums most of my life, I am 48 now. I dont think I have heard Donati play, unless maybe the bootleg Steve Vai tape I have is him. I have read he is 50 years or so old, and still commits to an insane practice schedule. Sounds like he traded his life for the pursuit of the instrument which is the ultimate sacrifice. I just reserved to tickets, Mar 26/2012 for his drum clinic and Mar 27/2012 for a band show with holdsworth and haslip. It is at cosmo music in Toronto and i think it is a venue which only seats about 250. So this is going to be unforgettable and intimate. I have been a Holdsworth fan since Metal Fatigue, (mid 80's???). I heard of this on this site around New Years and the store just announced it now, I phoned and reserved faster than an exlax induced bathroom run. So now I have 6 weeks to gather some Donati material and get familiar with his playing.

You've opened up the floodgates; I think you're going to get more material on Virgil than you bargained for :)

And to the thread in general:

It's a dangerous area to tread whenever the term "Greatest Drummer in the World" gets bandied about. And this isn't in response to anyone on here specifically, it's just my own thoughts. But in the pantheon of Greats, Virgil has his place.

He takes it to another level, not just in complexity, but in depth of feel while he's playing those complex patterns. I would love to see a trio with Virgil, Vinnie and "Smitty" Smith trading fours.

Forgive me, I have been playing drums most of my life, I am 48 now. I dont think I have heard Donati play, unless maybe the bootleg Steve Vai tape I have is him. I have read he is 50 years or so old, and still commits to an insane practice schedule. Sounds like he traded his life for the pursuit of the instrument which is the ultimate sacrifice. I just reserved to tickets, Mar 26/2012 for his drum clinic and Mar 27/2012 for a band show with holdsworth and haslip. It is at cosmo music in Toronto and i think it is a venue which only seats about 250. So this is going to be unforgettable and intimate. I have been a Holdsworth fan since Metal Fatigue, (mid 80's???). I heard of this on this site around New Years and the store just announced it now, I phoned and reserved faster than an exlax induced bathroom run. So now I have 6 weeks to gather some Donati material and get familiar with his playing.

Hi there!

I met Virgil back in 1996 and since 2000 I've been involved with his website. He's a great guy, really down to earth and I think you'll have a great time seeing him for the first time. Be prepared to catch your jaw :).

If you have 6 weeks, I'd recommend the 2 Joel Hoekstra albums 'Undefined' and 'The Moon Is Falling', Virgil's own On The Virg 'Serious Young Insects' and Planet X 'Moonbabies' to get to know him a bit. Joel has put all his stuff on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/joelhoekstravideos

Thanks, After reading the previous 7 pages, I gathered you were an involved fan of Virgil. I only watch videos on my work computer because we are on a wireless service at home and it is too easy to go over our allotted usage, criminal internet providers, but I will check the links and Virgil's site and let you know how it hits me.

Virgil is a real pioneer on the drums. If there is a criticism I've heard it's that he can focus on showmanship to the extent where the playing suffers - a drum student of mine (that I respect) told me of a gig he went to where Donati lost the beat because of showmanship antics.

It's a shame because it gives people the opportunity to overlook what a massive talent he is. I was knocked out by his playing when I saw him with Vai.