adze

Well most if NZ towns and citys are ok with the jafa thing, and they don’t really care. The biggest noise comes from Wellingtonians who have an inferiority complex and a chip on both fucking shoulders.

Say what? I think you mean Cantabs (I know, I lived there in my yoof and bought into that whole anti-Akl culture until after I moved to the NI and grew out of it). Wellingtonians as a general rule don’t have a thing about Auckland; however Cantabs always used to call you guys “dorklanders”. It’s John Banks who has a thing against Wellington (or at least, he made a show of it while he was Mayor of the original Auckland).

reid

I have often mentioned here the clear and present danger of investing heavily in fossil fuel exploration and exploitation only to see those assets become “stranded” when the wold moves to the equivalent of a wartime programmme to combat disastrous climate change.

Luckily for the world Luc I can announce this won’t happen with 100% certainty.

The world is never going to do that, not in a million years. I mean, do you seriously think every single human being on earth is going to give up all their vehicles, lifestyle etc? Not going to happen.

Even if the atmosphere became hot like Venus and windy like Jupiter why then none of us would give a shit for we’d all be spirits by then surfing happily through the lead waves etc, since our material beings perished eons ago.

If we were suddenly driving our cars and it want all black and scawy then that’s not how it would happen, according to the scientists since its a gradual process over many decades.

If you think there’s a tipping point beyond which the hitherto normal climate plunges into the abyss then what human being hasn’t enjoyed living as they did right up till it happened, all throughout history? Why do you think this will be any diff?

So I recommend just relax and enjoy life and educate your children well so make this place a heck of a lot better with the technology we leave them, which we’re working on right now.

Either that or simply panic and buy a whole lot of organic everything, build yourself an Earth House somewhere and bask in your smug self-righteousness until you feel like joining the party again.

nasska

Seems that a bit of banter between me (a climate skeptic) & Griff (a climate warmist) has brought ‘bereal’ close to meltdown.

Funny thing about people…we form small groups (families), larger groups (communities) & so on until we become nations. Then we align with other nations with similar goals & ideals. Sometimes we even have, shock & horror a bit of fun & play rugby or cricket or netball using these groupings to form teams. This is often referred to as parochial pride

Occasionally we even have each other on about our weather & compare notes about how bad each others mayor is.

Last night I tossed a comment to Griff facetiously suggesting handing out pineapples grown on the top of the Tararuas while Auckland was submerged by rising sea levels. I guess that most people would have written it off as a joke, a frivolous comment, perhaps a stupid comment….who knows but one person has taken it on him/herself to interpret it as a lack of national pride.

reid

Luc you want to talk about Dotcom?

Quite agree. Despicable sychophancy in plain sight with not many people saying a damn thing about it. Fucking outrageous, in my view.

Why can’t people see that even tho this is being done by our govt that this isn’t the way we’d be doing things if it was purely domestic so why are we doing it this way now? This is the rule of law we are talking about, after all, aren’t we.

Why can’t people see that this is anomalous therefore wrong in terms of the rule of law and if they can, why the fuck aren’t they disturbed about it?

Perhaps they think cos it’s only Uncle Sam then that makes it OK?

If anyone thinks that way perhaps one could explicate that perspective because I don’t get it, seriously.

nasska

A young Wellington woman was so depressed that she decided to end her life by throwing herself into the sea, but just before she could throw herself from the wharf, a handsome young man stopped her.

“You have so much to live for,” said the man. “I’m a sailor, and we are off to California tomorrow. I can stow you away on my ship. I’ll take care of you, bring you food every day, and keep you happy.”
With nothing to lose, combined with the fact that she had always wanted to go to California, the woman accepted.
That night the sailor brought her aboard and hid her in a small but comfortable compartment in the hold. From then on, every night he would bring her three sandwiches, a bottle of red wine, and make love to her until dawn. Two weeks later she was discovered by the captain during a routine inspection.

“What are you doing here?” asked the captain.
“I have an arrangement with one of the sailors,” she replied. “He brings me food and I get a free trip to California.”
“I see,” the captain says.
Her conscience got the best of her and she added, “Plus, he’s screwing me.”

adze

fatnuts

The cantab anti Auckland thing died along with their rugby dominance. Ancient history. A big ‘who cares’ now. Far as I’m concerned a massive chunk of roading funds should go to Auckland, the infrastructure is an embarrisment. Even compared to the 3rd world roads we have down here now.

Nostalgia-NZ

reid 7.57

The value of the property seized is beyond the value of the claim. The claim, which should most likely have been a civil claim, is presented under criminal law in the USA. NZ have siezed goods which are reported to become forfieted to the NZ Government, even though there is no apparent intention to charge Dotcom with contravening any nz law.
The lives of Dotcom’s wife and family have been invaded, stripped of assets even though they face no charges here. Everything, probably including food, ability to pay their bills has been siezed – and this is called Justice?

Other_Andy

Energy policy based on renewables will win hearts but won’t protect their owners from frostbite and death due to exposure.

Windmills are a self-indulgent and sanctimonious luxury whose purpose is to make us feel good. Had Europe genuinely depended on green energy on Friday, by Sunday thousands would be dead from frostbite and exposure, and the EU would have suffered an economic body blow to match that of Japan’s tsunami a year ago. No electricity means no water, no trams, no trains, no airports, no traffic lights, no phone systems, no sewerage, no factories, no service stations, no office lifts, no central heating and even no hospitals, once their generators run out of fuel…….

As I sat basking in the knowledge that Tim Oz had huffed and puffed his way off to home, I thought I should post some kind of reply to Other_Andy’s diatribe.

This link give a good summation of why the so-called acceptance of the partition by Israel and refection by Arab states is just another myth. Rejection of being stripped off their land by the Western powers and handed to a bunch of invaders by Palestinians is, of course, understandable. However, nothing is as simplistic as Israel-firsters posit, so peruse this informative article at your leisure:

The Turkish occupation of Cyprus is an abomination. Turkey will not be admitted to the EU while it continues, but I fear Turkey’s desire in that regard has diminished.

I’m not aware of any UN mandated right of return in the other instances you mention, but I’m do support many other causes relating to dispossession and oppression, you just haven’t noticed.

Your points about Palestinian nationalism ignore the fact that we are talking of an indigenous people forcibly dispossessed of their ancestral lands. They, through their forbears, can trace their roots back to the West Semites, the original occupiers of the land.

In the UN negotiations leading to the Partition Plan, the Palestinian negotiators expressed their view that they saw themselves as Southern Syrians, an area that included Jordan, but they were precluded from that option. Already, resistance to British occupation had seen a nascent nationalism develop and that deepened with adversity. That’s human nature.

reid

Yes, it’s a USA Today story but it was linked from rense so maybe it’s not true but then, it’s USA Today isn’t it and surely that’s owned and run by “reliable people” isn’t it?

Crikey, who knows, these days? Anyway, isn’t it a shame lots and lots of those things are missing, especially when nothing at all needed to happen, except for Ghaddafi to leave because it wasn’t convenient to have him anymore. Strange isn’t it how a man who’d ruled his people peacefully for many decades and they prospered under him – look it up – and then all of a sudden he wasn’t convenient anymore and they not only had to kill him, they killed him brutally, with one report of him I’ve read said he was raped on the bonnet of a jeep before he was shot dead. Not to mention what’s still happening to all his supporters and their families now. But he was always like that, wasn’t he. The excuse they used to sell his taking out to the useful idiots I mean – he was a brutal dictator who tortured his own people. He never changed. Still, strange isn’t it he was left alone all those years and then suddenly for all sorts of geopolitical reasons which many of us knew about some decision was made and the media started talking about it and then a year or so you know, incident here, incident there, it’s all on isn’t it. Then special forces then NATO then, you know. But hooray, another bad guy bites the dust, isn’t that terrif.

And the oil agreements they’ve made with the US since and the Libyan Central Bank they setup within days of the fall I think even within a single day, a single day, had nothing at all to do with that, did it. It was just the good guys winning again to vanquish evil from the world and hooray for that, wasn’t it. Of course it was. Hooray.

Wetfootmammal

Reid:

I’m sort of agreeing with you. I don’t think the world leaders see the global system going on in its present form much longer, so many of the issues that seem to be of vital and immediate importance, are moot.

Politics as most people know it is just a shell game. Humanity has a destiny which is hidden to most, but not all and one day we will be shown. I’m still trying to figure out who the good guys and the bad guys are. What do you see Reid? The only real fracture point i see is Islam vs the Zionists/Freemasons, and know that the later get up to some horrific stuff. That said, it is a divine plan, and god works in mysterious ways.

Jeez Wayne, you blather on! Talking about setting up straw men! Nothing I have said even remotely points to what you wrung out of my words.

Think of wartime Britain and the way industry ramped up. Think of the Manhatten Project. That’s the spirit we may heed to harness again, and it will be up to the half billion of us in the rich countries who will show the way and save humanity.

fatnuts

Griff

Abomination (from Latin abominare, “to deprecate as an ill omen”) is an English term used to translate the Biblical Hebrew terms shiqquwts (“shiqqûts”) and sheqets, which are derived from shâqats, or the terms תֹּועֵבָה, tōʻēḇā or to’e’va (noun) or ta’ev (verb). An abomination in English is that which is exceptionally loathsome, hateful, sinful, wicked, or vile.

The Biblical words usually translated as “abomination” do not always convey the same sense of moral exceptionalism as the English term does today, as it often may signify that which is forbidden or unclean according to the religion (especially sheqets). Linguistically in this case, it may be closer in meaning to the Polynesian term taboo or tapu, signifying that which is forbidden, and should not be eaten, and or not touched, and which sometimes was a capital crime. The word most often translated “abomination” to denote grave moral offenses is Tōʻēḇā. This article examines the term as it is used in English translations of the Bible, and also the actual senses of the words which are being translated into this term in English

fatnuts

Nostalgia-NZ

Reid 8.15

The ‘capture’ and treatment of Ghaddafi was a moment in time that gave his countrymen, or even a single man, the chance to embrace peace and a just way forward. But no one took it. They took revenge and brutality instead.

Viking2

Wife was told by her management to start looking for another job at the end of last year (she has been there for ten years). Never had verbal or written warnings, and always exceeded sales targets.

Today she is marched into meeting with management and offered 3 months pay to leave, or they will start performance management.

What does her contract say?
Sounds like a case of constructive dismissal coming. Record everything said and done. Dates times places etc.

I imagine that her contract if she was given one has a redundancy clause they don’t want to pay out on. If she has no contract they are already outside of the law and better go get a good lawyer that knows the employment law.
FWIW

Other_Andy

I’m not aware of any UN mandated right of return in the other instances you mention.

Me neither. Which begs they question, why not.

But I’m do support many other causes relating to dispossession and oppression, you just haven’t noticed.

I haven’t noticed because you haven’t mentioned any.

Your points about Palestinian nationalism ignore the fact that we are talking of an indigenous people forcibly dispossessed of their ancestral lands.

Indigenous? Your ersatz people identified nowadays as the “Palestinians” are a collection of diverse Arab clans plus a smattering of other ethnic groups (such as Serbs — these are the so-called Bosnian Muslims who were Serbian Orthodox Christians before their forced conversion to Islam — as well as Circassians and Chechens, all imported by the Ottoman Empire from their lands of origin to the Middle East. Only since 1967 they publicly declared themselves to be a distinct ethnic nation named after those very same defunct Philistines — this despite the fact that the ancient Philistines were not even Arabs.
‘Palestinians’ have no identity other than as the instrument of Israel’s destruction. No history, no ancient kings, no ancient texts, songs, or dances and no distict language. Their modern heroes are famous for murder and destruction.
Forcibly? Some of them, but that is not the whole story… The Syrian Prime Minister in 1948­, has (Among others) admitted the Arab role in persuading the refugees to leave. “Since 1948 we have been demanding the return of the refugees to their homes. But we ourselves are the ones who encouraged them to leave. Only a few months separated our call to them to leave and our appeal to the United Nations to resolve on their return.”
You want to talk about refugees? The real refugees were the Jews, 900.000 of them were thrliving in muslim countries before 1948.About 140,000 Jews lived in Iraq; nearly 60,000 in Yemen and Aden; 40,000 in Syria; 5,000 in Lebanon; 90,000 in Egypt; 40,000 in Libya; 150,000 in Algeria; 120,000 in Tunisia; and nearly 300,000 in Morocco, including Tangiers – a total of almost 950,000 in ten Arab countries, and a further 200,000 or more in Iran and Turkey. Today, scarcely 40,000 out of almost 1,250,000 persons remain from these indigenous Jewish communities dating from biblical times – less than 4,000 in Arab countries, scarcely half of 1% of those in 1948.

They, through their forbears, can trace their roots back to the West Semites, the original occupiers of the land.

Did you make that up yourself? Most Palestinian Arabs are descendants of the 1845-1947 Muslim migrants from the Sudan, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, as well as from Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Yemen, Libya, Morocco, Bosnia, the Caucasus, Turkmenistan, Kurdistan, India, Afghanistan and Balochistan.
Arab migrant workers were imported by the Ottoman Empire and by the British Mandate for infrastructure projects: The port of Haifa, the Haifa-Qantara, Haifa-Edrei, Haifa-Nablus and Jerusalem-Jaffa railroads, military installations, roads, quarries, reclamation of wetlands, etc. Illegal Arab laborers were also attracted by the relative economic boom, stimulated by Jewish immigration.

reid

The ‘capture’ and treatment of Ghaddafi was a moment in time that gave his countrymen, or even a single man, the chance to embrace peace and a just way forward. But no one took it. They took revenge and brutality instead.

No the Libyan militia weren’t Libyan’s Nostalgia. Perhaps you’re been listening to too much Fox.

reid

I’m still trying to figure out who the good guys and the bad guys are.

We don’t have good guys and bad guys Wetfoot it’s them and us. This is critical to understand about this issue.

They call us useless eaters. They undermine our family values through things like feminism and they manipulate us like you wouldn’t believe.

Consider if politics were not real. It didn’t exist except as a puppet show, in that, in the US has Obama changed the tack which the US has been on, since Reagan? In terms of general decline? Has it? You look. Reagan did the Central Banking Interest Rate monetary reforms then Bush came in and BTW during Reagan, Bush was the driving force e.g. he was behind Iran-Contra and Bush 29 Jan 1991 even (by permission) announced the NWO in his State of the Union and invaded Kuwait. To an open mind there are a lot of problems with that operation but as always look at the attendant fallout for the motive: oil agreements, etc. Then Clinton came (check his Arkansas history it is amazing) with a dot-bomb bubble, Greenspan dropped interest rates to zero, the bubble transferred itself to the nascent real-estate market. At the same time the globalisation era (world govt?) began the off-shoring that has today hollowed out America’s engine so she has no motor for recovery apart from historical reputation and that’s transient. Then Bush 43 arrived and FFS, enough said. Now Obama who has more Wall-streeters in his Administration than ANY other president in history – gee the bailouts didn’t really happen, did they? That’s just a “conspiracy theory.” (Plus the fact he comes from nowhere, has questionable gay links (Specific to the skeptics with cognitive dissonance: What’s the matter, didn’t you know that? I would have thought Fox would have told you that. Look it up, dummy.) and apparently has birth certificate problems sufficient a Georgia judge told him to appear and produce he was no show and consequently could legally forfeit the Georgia ballot (think it’s Georgia).

Just imasgine if that had really happened. Would that mean both left and right were tanking their own country, or what. Or are they just really mental? The most senior politicians in the richest country in the world over a period of decades, were mental. It really seems

From what I have read and I don’t know if it’s true, their goal is a world government with 500 million humans with them as aristocrats and the rest of those who survive as slaves to them, in that, you are chipped, without which you don’t work, eat or live. The family doesn’t exist. You don’t breed without permission. Children are taken and raised by the state for their own purposes. Seven billion on this planet cannot be sustained. Therefore 500m is their goal. Simple as that.

The problem is, Earth isn’t like this, is it. And this is why most people don’t get it. The reason they don’t get it is the cause is a spiritual explanation here Wetfoot, not an Earthly one. This is why many, almost all in fact, fail even to begin exploring it. It’s tragic beyond words for they miss the most important truth of their lives and it’s right in front of them.

Wetfootmammal

Reid:

Agree that the US, in the macro-sense, is run by an oligarchy, with the left-right divide being a facade. What i meant was, it seems that the Iranian Ayatollahs, supported by other Sheit leaders in Pakistan, are the last stumbling block for the new world order. Both the Zionists and the Islamic fundamentalists are bent on playing out the events that precede their respective messianic prophecies, which means an end of times battle in the Syria-Israel-Iraq area. Following this, both sides want their own one-world state.

I agree that the Illuminati (what ever you want to call them) are intent on scooping out the soul of western society by degrading all that was once holy (sexuality, family, the human body etc). You could look at them as being satanists, providing their master with ever more souls to join him in hell. That’s why i think they’re ultimately the bad guys in the war. In contrast, the Islamic forces seem to be defending the human soul, so they could be seen as the good guys. Your thoughts?

Other_Andy

the California county passed a 37-page ordinance that prohibits “any person to cast, toss, throw, kick or roll” any object other than a beach ball or volleyball “upon or over any beach” between Memorial Day and Labor Day.
They’ve even gone as far as prohibiting anyone “digging any hole deeper than 18 inches into the sand except where permission is granted for film and TV production services only.”

reid

In contrast, the Islamic forces seem to be defending the human soul, so they could be seen as the good guys. Your thoughts?

OK Iran is the most God-fearing country on Earth if one accepts that the people of Israel are not the true Israelites and frankly, if Israel really is populated by the chosen people then why the fuck are they so brutal to their neighbours and don’t say it’s because they have to be, because rationally and realistically, Israel has had enough military strength to control all its neighbours ambitions for a hell of a long time now. Her existence is not under threat from a few bombs. So given this is in fact the stark clear and obvious human and factual reality and has been for decades, why the fuck, why the fuck, pray tell, does she act so very brutally, given she is supposed to be God’s “chosen people?”

Iran on the other hand has never invaded anyone. Ever. Iraq invaded her, not the other way round and Iran merely defended herself.

Now if one compares the two, which of the more likely is the G-d fearing one?

OTOH, you have the Biblical prophecies which are all about Israel and the seat of Jerusalem. You know the Rothschild’s paid for the Israeli Supreme Court building and there is masonic symbolism all over it. It’s unbelievable what is there. They paid for it on the condition the price never be revealed.

One of them used to be on the 500 Sheckel note. They’re revered there, apparently.

A key to understanding these people is they wish to destroy God’s credibility in the eyes of His people. Satan is not called the Slanderer and Deceiver for nothing. So if Israel is destroyed, if he can’t save his own people, then He doesn’t exist.

I’m not sure exactly how Iran fits into this, but a strong real possibility right now is Iran has an unhittable missile force. There are thousands of them and some of them whatever happens will be launched at Dimona and Tel Aviv etc etc also, Iran will I believe be accused of if not actually do, sink a US carrier in the gulf. Iran has missiles capable of taking out carriers, one of the Fifth Fleet’s carriers is on its last voyage before being sent to the carrier-knackers yard which is a billion dollar decommissioning process and frankly, much better if it simply sank in the gulf and we blamed Iran.

Cynical?

You bet. I’ve seen and read what these bastards have done. That would be nothing, to them.

I think it will go nuclear. But surgically as in neutron nuclear. You know, don’t damage the property…

I think it could trigger China/Russia response but that’s real hard to read.

Russia you see is NWO but Putin is resisting the pull. Whereas China is still to me but a black box, I haven’t cracked her yet.

Griff

The internet do not let them control it
the MSM is the main method of control
The whole celebrity, advertising, misleading News, fashion and corporate spin Thing is how the plebs get sucked in. The MSM sucks plebs into a fantasy world.

Parts of the net is outside of this witness the riots in England using face book etc to organize. Anonymous. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anonymous_%28group%29
We can now see any were in the world and make our own minds up from the truth. Social media allows ideas to spread instantly. If you are interesting in a subject You can easily access many sources of information.

adze

fatnuts

Reid, in my ever so humble opinion, it’s about Jerusalem. The most aggressive settlement activity blatanty annexes off the city. The laws on Palestinians living in the old city are blatanly oppressive, and obviously designed for their ejection. Ultra orthodox Jews openly call for the destruction of the Al-Aqsa Mosque to make way for the 3rd temple, which some beleive wold then ‘teleport’ down. They’d probably trade off much of the occupied West band, even Galilee, once Syria is neutralised. They did with Gaza. These places are shit holes, so no idea why any Jew wold want to live outside of Tev Aviv, or Haifa, which are lovely spots. It part of some grand plan.

Wetfootmammal

Reid – I don’t doubt that most of the people in Israel are genuine god-fearing Jews, good people. However, the Rabbinic tradition was corrupted by Satanic forces a long time ago. They learned magic/demonology/spirit possession from the Egyptians, arguably from the time of Moses onwards. Certainly from the time of Solomon onwards. Since then it has spread over the rest of the world like a virus, through the secret society networks, poisoning the hierarchy of most societies. Yes – many people will literally sell their immortal soul for power, astounding but true.

Not everyone will be fooled however. i.e. the Ayatollahs are savvy to it i believe, and Ayatollah Khomeini won’t travel outside Iran, or meet with foreign leaders. He has also publicly accused Ahmadinejad of practicing black magic – which shows he is aware of the reality that it truly exists. What do you think Reid.

Wetfootmammal

Williamson looked like a real drop kick on Closeup tonight. When is Key going to reply to John Scarry’s letter of Oct 2,009? It looks like these mongrels are going to dump everything on the CHCH city council.
Do people know that Canterbury Uni demolished a building because it was the same design as the CTV building?

reid

The grand plan I fear is a Muslim-Western war with China playing an unknown possibly neutral part.

Well it’s one of their grand plans. I’m just wondering which one it might be because the others aren’t much better.

The key at the mo is Iran because they are seen in the Muslim as the purist Islamic nation and attacking them is a dagger through the heart of Islam. Regardless of how we see it this is how the whole Islamic world will see it.

But don’t wait for the MSM to explain that, will you.

Not everyone will be fooled however. i.e. the Ayatollahs are savvy to it i believe, and Ayatollah Khomeini won’t travel outside Iran, or meet with foreign leaders. He has also publicly accused Ahmadinejad of practicing black magic – which shows he is aware of the reality that it truly exists. What do you think Reid.

Crikey. I think we should get some garlic and silver wetfoot.

And lots of crosses.

Seriously I read one story where this young Iranian guy’s dad told him when the Ayotollah took over that while the Shah wasn’t good news the religious nutters weren’t any better and this was and I believe still is the Iranian ‘street’ sentiment.

And if you think of Iran like that you see it as a serious, peaceful, modern, sophisticated, prosperous, powerful country. Why is that scary, to some? This to me is the puzzle.

Of course, if all one ever thinks about when one thinks about Iran at all, is the latest Islamic stoning or state beheading atrocity and one never thinks anything else about it until the next one comes along, well one is less than a wildebeast in one’s intelligence on what Iran is really like, isn’t one. Possibly a particularly stupid wildebeast.

There’s lot’s of them thar wildebeast out thar Wetfoot, this is the problem.

Wetfootmammal

Reid – fair enough on the garlic and silver.

I was a typical well-educated, hedonistic, agnostic lefty liberal up until a year or so ago (not saying you are). I would have laughed at the idea that black magic is a real and powerful force in this world. Then events in my life led me to a different understanding. It’s very real, and almost took my life. Of course it’s impossible to prove, but it’s at the crux of the whole spiritual/political issue of our time. The best i could do is direct you to a doco, which should get you questioning your position on the matter.

noskire

Thanks Nookin.

It’s a high-profile international company and she’s been shafted because she didn’t (or didn’t want to) fit into the “sub-culture” that exists in its Christchurch operation – an operation I suspect would surprise the God-fearing NZ CEO that is supposedly in charge.

Griff

The biosolar breakthrough has the potential to make “green” electricity dramatically cheaper and easier.
“This system is a preferred method of sustainable energy because it is clean and it is potentially very efficient,As opposed to conventional photovoltaic solar power systems, we are using renewable biological materials rather than toxic chemicals to generate energy. Likewise, our system will require less time, land, water and input of fossil fuels to produce energy”

The Universe wouldn’t be the same without the Higgs boson. This legendary particle plays a role in cosmology and reveals the existence of another closely related particle. “We have determined that when the Higgs condensate disappeared to make way for the particles that exist today, the equations permitted the existence of a new, massless particle, the dilaton,” explains EPFL physicist Daniel Zenhäusern.
‘It turns out that this new and as yet purely theoretical particle happens to have the exact characteristics to explain the existence of dark energy.”

Now I’m home from work, relaxing, less hurried, I’ll give O_A some more guidance, and hopefully catch up with him tomorrow to point him this way.

He accuses me of being unconcerned with other causes but the reply really should be, even if that was true, so what? We were all brought up with this conflict writ large in our homes. I was raised a Christian, of course, so the spiritual imperative should be obvious.

In addition, though, and primarily now, I recognise this as the last European colonisation project and we mainly agree these days that colonisation, all things considered, is bad for those colonised. This one is not complete and can be ameliorated, so we, as Europeans, have a responsibility to advance amelioration as favourable as possible to the Palestinians, without causing physical harm to Israelis.

So I’ll see his begging the question and raise a red herring.

Then he objected to my asserting Palestinians are the indigenous people of the land, and complained of immigration to the land.

Well, Andy, almost no ethnicity is pure, these days, and Palestine has seen a long line of conquerors come and go, but that does not diminish the claim to indigeneity, which is recognised at the United Nations and other international forums. Go argue with them.

Your paragraph beginning “‘Palestinians’ have no identity other than…” is just more Zionist trope. It’s proven lies, disproved especially by Israel’s own historians. You need to widen your reading, and a good start would be my reading list shown on my blog, albeit badly in need of updating.

The Jews in Arab states, Mizrahi Jews, were particularly hard hit by the despicable actions of the western powers in supporting the Partition Plan. Not only did they have to contend with the hostile actions of people they had lived with for thousands of years, they then suffered racist marginalisation in Israel, as they do to this day. It was only human nature for fellow Arabs to take the side of Palestinians, but the Jewish Arabs were victims, too, in more ways than one.

However, this is something that needs to be taken up with the Arab states as it has nothing to do with Palestinians or with a resolution that ends the occupation and the oppression.