Are Short Women More Desirable Than Tall Women?

In particular, are short women more desirable as girlfriends? Note I used the word desirable, and not “attractive”, which bears an important distinction. Female desirability encompasses more than physical attraction, such as femininity, selflessness, loyalty and temperament. There is evidence that short women are more feminine than tall women because estrogen levels, which inhibit bone growth, are higher in them.

traditional girl writes:

High levels of estrogen halt bone growth. Have you ever noticed that shorter, more finely boned women are (on average) kinder, less competitive, and more feminine? Tall, muscular women with sturdy skeletons and jaws are more likely to have low levels of estrogen and high levels of testosterone.

In any case, it seems to me that in our ancestral environment, a woman’s kindness, sexual loyalty, cooperative spirit and fertility would have been more important to her mate than her physical strength. She would have been too busy with pregnancies and infants to slaughter a bear.

As an aside, as a heterosexual women, I greatly prefer small-boned, large-breasted women for friendship. They’re more likely to be loyal, sweet, and share my values. I try to avoid tall, large-jawed, small-breasted women. I always get the “I want to screw around, break up relationships and eat babies” vibe from them.

Men are attracted to a woman’s looks first and foremost, but after a while — a few weeks to a few months — a woman’s other assets become important to men, especially men seeking long term relationships. Is she sweet and affectionate? Does she like to cook him dinner? Is she nurturing and does she coo over other women’s babies? Is she an animal lover? Does she prefer to avoid getting into arguments? Does she frequently cede decisions to her man? Does she shy from logic and debate? Is she quick to tear up during sad movies?

Most men, their curmudgeonly ribbing to the contrary notwithstanding, really do love these attributes of the feminine woman. Yes, we may complain about a woman’s runaway emotions, her focus on seemingly trite household matters, or her bleeding heart worldview, but we love them for it. The alternative — dating a woman with a man-like personality, ambition and outlook, however sexy she may be — leaves us feeling like we’re dating an alien impostor, and our instinct to protect and provide for an intrinsically vulnerable lover is muted with such masculine-essenced women.

Looking back on the women in my life, I think there is something to this. The shorter women have been, with few exceptions, more feminine and sweet-natured than the taller women I have dated. (And also more full of charming neuroses.) The short girls were the ones begging me to return to bed after sex so they could get their cuddle fix, while the tall girls would jump out of bed first after getting their rocks off. Hey, if I have things to do, I don’t mind a girl occupying herself after sex, but in the big picture I greatly prefer — and I suspect most men do too — a woman who acts like a stereotypical woman in and out of the bedroom. Unfortunately, women like this are running out in the West.

So maybe estrogen explains why everyone isn’t over six feet tall. Men of all heights are drawn to the feminine allure of shorter women with higher levels of estrogen, and have families with them, rejuvenating the next generation with shorter descendants. Perhaps men also choose these shorter women for family formation subconsciously knowing that they are less of a cuckolding risk than masculinized tall women.

Not that tall women don’t have their advantages. You’ve gotta love those long legs wrapped around you, for one. And if you’re a tall man you don’t have to prop up a tall woman’s behind for easier doggy-style access. Plus, tall women make for more striking arm candy as long as they meet a minimum beauty threshold. It’s just too easy for a hot short girl, sexy though she may be, to get lost in the crowd.

The flipside to this is that really tall women are easier to pick up for me — they get less hit on by guys (even ultra tall guys).

I have a gal pal who is a solid 8 who is a total 5 cent slut who will leave a bar if there are too many women shorter than her there. She knows it’s a losing venture to try to compete with the shorty spinners.

Short girls are harder to get than tall girls, if you’re a tall guy. I’m 6 foot 1. I have a 1 in 3 chance if there are only 3 guys taller than her. I have a 1 in 10 chance if there are 10 guys taller than her.

I’m 5’8″ (actual, although I’ve grown about 3/4″ in the past 2 years oddly) and I’ve mostly dated on the edges of the bell curve (4’10” to 6’0″ dames). A man’s height absolutely CAN reduce the number of direct hits as a percentage, so shorter guys just need more attempts.

A friend of mine is 6’6″ and a total beta and he gets women walking up to him asking to buy him drinks every time we go out together. Once he opens his mouth though (unless he’s already tanked), they typically lose interest FAST.

Completely untrue. One of my business partners I go out with a lot is 5’6″ at best, not muscular or skinny, and he gets women throwing their numbers at him without him requesting or showing interest. He’s a funny, cocky bastard and goes out to have fun with his guy friends, and the women get wet just talking to him for 5 minutes when they open him to talk.

“Likewise, evolution may have led women to prefer taller men. Women will take just about any shortcoming in a man, except in the height department, according to Andrea McGinty.

McGinty helped ABCNEWS put together an experiment to test just how willing women are to date shorter men. We brought together several short men and asked them to stand next to taller men. We invited groups of women to look at the men and choose a date. To see if the women would go for short guys who were successful, ABCNEWS’ Lynn Sherr created extraordinary résumés for the shorter men. She told the women that the shorter men included a doctor, a best-selling author, a champion skier, a venture capitalist who’d made millions by the age of 25.

Nothing worked. The women always chose the tall men. Sherr asked whether there’d be anything she could say that would make the shortest of the men irresistible. One of the women replied, “Maybe the only thing you could say is that the other four are murderers.” Another backed her up, saying that had the taller men had a criminal record she might have been swayed to choose a shorter man. Another said she’d have considered the shorter men, if the taller men had been described as “child molesters.” The desire for tall men begins very young, apparently. ABCNEWS gave elementary school students a test, asking them to match a small, medium or large figure of a man with a series of words. The kids overwhelmingly linked the tall figure to the words strong, handsome and smart. The linked the short figure to the words sad, scared and weak. More than half of the kids also chose to link the short figure to the words, dumb and yucky.”

[Editor: There’s little argument that short men have it tougher than tall men in the dating market, but the comparison to fat women is off. Fat women are utterly and completely sexually worthless once they reach a weight classified by the CDC as obese. Only the most degenerate loser men with no options would deign to dump a fuck in a fat whale. Short men, by contrast, are simply operating with an SMV deficiency that can be overcome with compensating traits. And, despite this study’s methodology, listing your resume of accomplishments is not a compensating trait. Few women are viscerally turned on by a glowing resume, but many women are turned on by a man with tight game.]

“Short men, by contrast, are simply operating with an SMV deficiency that can be overcome with compensating traits. And, despite this study’s methodology, listing your resume of accomplishments is not a compensating trait. Few women are viscerally turned on by a glowing resume”

Women say all kinds of shit when they are being “researched”.

If asked, most women will say they want a guy that’s a tall, model, Nobel Prize winner, billionaire, Aryan-mandingo, athlete, who doesn’t mind that they’re fat.

How do you explain short guys like Tom Cruise and Sly Stallone? OK these guys are famous actors…but at one time they were just short guys trying to make a go of it…and make a go of it they did despite their shortness.

One of my brother’s best friends is 5’2″ at best, black guy, 180 lbs, RIPPED to SHREDS, gets more pussy than he can handle. It’s all ATTITUDE. No doubt being short is a handicap, but it’s like being a short running back – you can be short and fucking awesome.

@Alec , there is a certain genre of caucasian women who prefer black cock or at least want to experiment and sample some black cock. So even if the fellow was short, women who want to sample black cock will do so anyway. This is like comparing apples to oranges- for those specific women-they are only interested in black cock whether short or tall-so you cant really compare with those black men with the rest of us-from a black cock loving woman perspective. This is why when I lived in Sydney (Australia) if I wanted to pick up I would generally go out with a black friend.+

I think it’s safe to say, as has been repeated already, that barring other remarkable traits (e.g., ‘180lbs RIPPED to SHREADS’… try not to organism, there’s a good fellow) short men are indisputably at a disadvantage.

As far as ‘black cock’ goes, Arnie sounds like he’s even more into it than the skank mud sharks he mentions.

Supermodels are tall and leggy (usually 5’9) & are what most consider desirable/feminine. Shortness in women is not as celebrated or notable in terms of being “ideal”. IMO a woman that is 5’7 or 5’8 is perfect. She’ll have longer legs, better porportions.

I think its the tall muscular women who may come off as more masculine.

Neecy,
Short when the person is stumpy (man or woman) is generally unattractive–the extreme example is dwarfism.

But when the person is small and well proportioned they can look great. This is especially true for women.

While you do hear about the unusually long, tall, slender, leggy woman being being described as such, there are equally descriptions of small women that we hear all the time: “she’s a cute little thing, or “she’s tiny” or “petite slender little lady”. (Come to think of it I did hear this more in Texas and parts of the South).

A taller woman in photos will always look slimmer if she’s already slim. Shorter women, in photos, even if slim, tend to look heavier.

I’ve dated models (actually, am seeing one now) and in person they look emaciated or weird or gangly. On camera, they look fantastic.

Just because society’s definition of photographed beauty points to a specific height and body type does NOT mean that those same beauties will look good in real life.

In today’s society, it is just as hard to find a fit size 2 gal who is 5’4″ as it is to find a fit tall gal. Shorter women are hit on more, that’s for sure. A truly dominant male cares little about a woman’s height compared to him.

The biggest problem for a shorter guy like me in dating taller women is sex: missionary sex is based on the comparison of a man’s shoulder to hip height versus a woman’s shoulder to hip height (man should be taller there). Tall women have TONS of legs, typically, so if I doggie-style them, I have to practically stand on a telephone book to get the right angle.

“Just because society’s definition of photographed beauty points to a specific height and body type does NOT mean that those same beauties will look good in real life.”

I agree with this. And honestly I *personally* don’t find the supermodels ideal in terms of the kind of beauty I admire (i prefer and admire more girl next door, girly but can be a bombshell with a few tweaks kind of beauty). I like relatable very girly type beauty.

But it seems the most celebrated women are the tall supermodel types. I’m not going to lie, I would sell my right hand to have very long legs. But being an avid women’s magazine reader, I do find myself feeling that not being a tall slender woman is a disadvantage. *shrug*

neeecy, you seem to bring out the dickweeds around here. Ignore them. (I’ve also just poked their little egos by saying so, which should get some hilariously pathetic responses.) Here’s the deal: I’m well over 6′, and love tall women. I also love reasonably short women, which is good because a LOT of the dancer/actor types I gravitate to are around 5’3″. There are a lot of kinds of beauty, and sexy happens in lithe little dancers as easily as in statuesque amazons. Too small and we look weird together and have slow, careful sex, both of which gets old. Outside of that, I have no real preference.

LOL These stray dog stalkers on here don’t phase me one bit! They are pure entertainment for a girl like me. they won’t be getting fed from me here on out:)

Anyway,
Like you I have dated both tall and short. You have an advantage being over 6 ft., b/c even the tallest woman at 5’9 is shorter than you. Its good you at least have given both a try. Some people don’t even try anything before they start denouncing it. My strong preference is for taller males, but I have also had great experiences with guys my height (5’6). I have had friends who were height nazis and missed out *shrug* Actually the best guy in bed was my little short skinny b/f shockingly. He was sooo cute and I didn’t want to date him b/c he was so skinny and short. But he had so much character and confidence I couldn’t resist even when I tried. LOL! He handled this sold girl pretty darn well – I was very shocked. haha. I think most people if they find a person they click with, can overlook some of the more superficial things. I am not necessarily a height nazi, 6ft or taller is wonderful to have but if I don’t get that and find a decent guy with good qualities whose shorter, I’m game.

Thank you for actually saying what I hoped. not all men take for granted a woman’s POV just like i don’t take for granted a males POV on some things. I was simply giving my view on what I consider admirable beauty and how that plays a role in how I personally strive to achieve that look for myself. I look at pics of the women, i want to emulate in terms of make up and style. I look at old pics of Pam Anderson and Carmen electra (when they were at the height of their beauty) b/c that is the look I like to achieve for myself – a mix of girl next door with some bombshell thrown in (make up wise/style). i also like bohemian style and look as well – so that’s what I emulate.

And yes, most women can be good judges of beauty as long as they can seperate any insecurities they may have against another woman who may be more attractive or desirable than they are. If women didn’t have a say in another woman’s beauty, then you men wouldn’t have variety. That is how women determine looks and styles for themselves. Some women emulate more classic sophisticated beauty, others like more bombshell/porn star beauty, some emulate girl next door beauty and so forth. So yes its important for women to judge other woman’s look so they know what they like for themselves.

Women have no taste in other women. They’re hard-wired to like guys, so the cute ones with choices tend to do girls that look like guys. I ‘ve done a lot of swinging, and on several occasions was with cute girls that ended up having sex with fat old women. So even if they do girls, what they think is irrelevant.

Look, girls don’t think about doing other girls (unless they are gay), but that doesn’t mean that we don’t like (or are jealous of) beautiful girls. Women have a lot of taste in other women. We might not be so centered on youth and beauty (I actually am …), but we definitely notice a beautiful girl.

Exactly Maya. I know I am not gay but I often (especially now since I am trying to transform myself physically) look at pics of the women I consider beautiful. I look at their hair, make up and style. Not b/c I wanna get in the bed with them, but b/c I like their look and want to steal/emulate some of their beauty secerts and looks. When I see an attractive or beautiful woman that strikes me, I’m not hating or lusting, i’m looking at her to see what i could steal and use for myself. LOL

so you claim that women have no ability to recognize which woman is beautiful and which is not?

(btw, Neecy just said what she likes on other women, she’s not trying to force you that you have to have the same taste or that you have to care about what she thinks – I really don’t know why posting her opinion made you so angry?!)

Yes. totally agree with this premise. I see it in business all the time.

i work in outside sales, and it seems taller women are able to command much more attention from customers than ones shorter than they are. Its similar to the blonde bruenette thing. it seems brunettes are often looked at as more credible while the blonde reps are often kind of brushed off when they try to appear serious.

I will say, it is an advantage being short with male bosses. male bosses are more partial and forgiving to the shorter “cute” girls. I’ve seen this with my own eyes. My old boss and another rep (who was taller than he was) would go head to head ALL THE TIME. They hated each other.

I agree, taller women are seen as more special when I see how people interact with them. Its almost like they are in awe.

While I know any woman no matter her height can be attractive, I guess I say “desirable” b/c often times this is what we are made to believe that’s what is IDEAL (tall, leggy, model like) based on who and what we see as ‘desirable” in society/media.

A woman – with her innate advantages in outside sales (people actually want to talk to a woman) – who can apply the principles of game to her behaviour (a prerequisite for any male salesman, even the naturals) – has the potential to be an unstoppable force.

I also work in sales, and it’s sad to see how many women work in it, who are good at the job, but have no idea why. I’m thinking you might be that rare exception.

You are right Aurini. Women’s innate advantage in outside sales is I think we are perceived as less aggressive and threatening and more trusting to decision makers. Therefore, their guard isn’t up intially as much as with a male sales rep. Men in sales are hardcore. lol Although i do think males in outside sales have another kind of advantage that women don’t – they are perceived as more credible and knowledeable. Often when i am with my manager or another male rep, they balance out some of the credibility that some docs or dentists or male decision makers may not see with a woman. I could be saying the samething they were saying, but sometimes hearing it from a male makes them more comfy. lol

All my bosses in sales have been male (thank GOD! Women managers are nuts and I am thankful i have never had one *knocking on wood*). I do notice males are often more able to close some of the more difficult sales/accounts that I wasn’t able to. I find i am really good at penetrating and building relaitonships with my customers, but when I have difficulty closing them and getting the deal I call my boss and he is able to do it.

Are long legs not considered feminine? I always thought that was *one* among many of the hallmarks of femininity – long legs.

I have never heard a man say he doesn’t like long legs or “leggy” women. I think supermodels *can* be feminine – i.e think more Victoria’s Secret catalog models – although I wouldn’t quite put them with the atypical runway model that looks skeletal..

Let me clarify. i am not saying long legs are a “feminine” trait, but that growing up I have always seen and heard males saying how long legs on women are attractive. A guy who is tall and has long legs is certainly not feminine in anyway.

Absolutely, long legs are considered feminine. My take is the most important thing is proportions. Get the proportions ideals and you cant go wrong(like Jessica Alba-perfect proportions).
Having said that, I generally dont find overly short women , say below 5’1′ very attractive-this may be why Iam not all that attracted to asian women-but that’s just me-I am 5’9″(without heels!)
Its good you are participating in this exclusively male domain to give us a feminine perspective- but always remember your opinion on the relative physical attractiveness of women will always be taken with less weighting than a man’s opinion.
Speaking hypothetically, I mean if i ask my secretary to go out on the street to select a girl for me for the night, I would have very little faith she wont bring me one who is muscular etc-her taste and what is attractive to her! Same as if you tasked me with this job, I will probably get you a man who is too feminine for your liking , because feminine is whats attractive to me.

Not all the time Arnie. Some women know what their male friends like and will hook them up accordingly (even if the girl doing the hooking up doesn’t resemble that kind of woman). Women can and often do make ridiculous claims about what men like – usually those women are insecure and just want to hate on other women that men consider attractive. Nothing irks me more than a woman jumping in a male convo about women and telling the men they are “crazy” for finding a particular girl/woman attractive. I hate HATERS!

I was simply outlining the kind of beauty I find admirable and that drives me to emulate for myself. secure women use judging other women’s beauty as a way to attract men. IOW’s if certain kind of woman is considered very desirable, some women look to that as a way to use some things for herself or teach other women how to achieve that.

I was at a bar and I saw a woman climbing ontop of a barstool and kneeling on it to only still be shorter than the man she was talking to. The guy had mega game and I gave him a jolly laugh because of the scene

Maybe b/c i don’t hang in bars I don’t see this. I don’t see men in general weeding out women based on height. Most men appreciate attractive women. How many successful very rich men are with and married to very tall women – a lot. So it seems there is a good stigma attached to a tall woman – except on Roissy…..I don’t care either way, I’m right in the middle and happy with that 🙂

Same for me, because it’s rare in a high heel environment I get an enormous power in me. I don’t know if I would have the same level of feeling were I always taller. I should wear lifts to test that theory

“Is she nurturing and does she coo over other women’s babies? Is she an animal lover? Does she prefer to avoid getting into arguments? Does she frequently cede decisions to her man? Does she shy from logic and debate? Is she quick to tear up during sad movies?”

—————–

I do not view these as good qualities. I’d find the cooing thing extremely annoying. As for the rest, I don’t want a 50s doormat.

[Editor: Feminine != doormat. Hope this clarifies.]

As much as I mock the Jizzabel types, I’m actually attracted to sarcastic, decidedly non-sweet types. I don’t really care about height.

Btw, what’s wrong with the chick jumping out of bed straight after? That’s the perfect setup.

Precisely this. I dated a 5’9 blond beauty (solid 8) for three months before tiring of the aura of masculinity she inherently brought into our relationship. I maintained the frame, fended off every shit-test, but the entire experience was wearying. Yeah, there was the arm-candy thing, but as a typical DC career girl, she was a recovering feminist (with my constant assistance), only wore pants and blouses (again, I had to drag her into dresses) and couldn’t cook to save her life (I gave up on that one… she couldn’t boil water, and I had no patience to teach). Beauty and bangability is indeed awesome at the outset, but I realized I could get the same hotness in a shorter, more pre-domesticated package.

Because men haven’t figured out what they want in early life. I have a theory:

After years of observing guys, I’ve concluded that they desire a situation in which they have three girlfriends/wives:

Girl A: A short, chubby fuckbox that they have secret, shameful sex with behind closed doors. The guy ensures that he’s never seen with this girl and their relationship is confined to middle-of-the-night booty calls. She never meets his family or friends. If they’re in the same public place, he’ll never acknowledge her. Even though her body type gets his sexual juices flowing, she’s not the type of girl that’s idealized in Western society.

Girl B: Now this is the girl that he can’t wait to introduce to his friends, family and rivals. She’s tall, slim, modelesque, statuesque etc. in addition to being pretty in the face. Her body type comes with a seal-of-approval from society in general and especially the media. Alas, her skinny, boyish body and relatively flat chest and ass means that she doesn’t really get her man sexually excited.

Girl C: Think Natalie Portman in Garden State. Somewhat of a cute, kooky female best friend who leads observers to wonder ‘are they or aren’t they’? This is the one that ‘gets’ you. You don’t mind being seen with her because she’s gorgeous (in an adorable way) and slim. She’s also the most likely of the three to be intellectually minded. You probably don’t see her in a sexual way at all. More like a little sister. She can be thought of as an emotional girlfriend.

So there you are, the trinity for the modern man consists of:

The secret fuck-pig, the tall, model-like official girlfriend and the cute, petite and adorable emotional girlfriend.

I saw you post that before and still disagree 100%. Girl A sounds gross, chubby girls don’t get my juices flowing. Girl B sounds like she has no personality and Girl C sounds like a sister. You are a weird person.

In my opinion a dream girl is short (5’3″ or shorter) and slender (size 0 or 2) girl who is feminine and submissive (especially in bed) who has medium to large tits for her frame and a very little bit of muscle/tone on her (but NOT bulky or jacked). Nothing makes a girls ass look fantastic like a little bit of weight lifting. I hate boning frail girls cause I feel like I will break them.

Well, you nailed it. Recently I had two girlfriends, Girl B and Girl C. They didn’t get me very sexually interested, but they and my feelings toward them fit your description. I know Girl A would. So thank you for your theory.

I never hear people going on about shorter petite.
—I have never heard men as a majority extoll or attack a woman’s height or lack thereof. Sure, occassionally one guy will say he only likes tall girls or petite spinners, but that’s the same percentage that say they like black girls.

Well, just enough to get you to marry them and play daddy to their alphaspawn anyway.

Seriously, White guys are living in the glass house when it comes to picking on Black women. We don’t profit as much from the brave new feminist world. We didn’t create the monsters that your women have become.

So don’t go talking trash about ghetto queens while your women are running around sucking every Black cock they can get ahold of, having slut walks, defending baby killers, and using your tax and charity dollars to fund genocidal nutjobs abroad.

I’m a petiteophile. For some reason, fellow guys are afraid to come out and say they are, too, especially around taller women who they don’t want to insult. Guys are considerate that way; women have no problem obnoxiously pronouncing their preference for tall guys when they are around short guys, even when there is no purpose in doing so.

Let’s just say finding out that many men (at least the ones who post here) typically lean more towards shorter women is surprising to me (not so much the petite part) but the height. I don’t understand why a taller woman would get upset about a man’s preference for shorter petite women and vice versa. only an insecure person would be upset at someone else’s preferences. They are what they are *shrug* I do feel media leads us to believe that taller women are the ideal to most men. But then media and day to day life are 2 complete different worlds. Either way I don’t think any attractive woman is going to suffer without male attention regardless of height.

I’ve been party to conversations where taller women have gotten offended by my mention of a preference for short women. It goes something to the effect of an unpleasantly posed question such as, “so you wouldn’t mind me attractive?!”

Women like that are just sad. Usually these kinds of women you described are very masculine and competitive and need to have reinforcement for everything. Its like if someone has a preference for a woman that doesn’t fit their profile then they are offended. Entitlement….

I wouldn’t say tall women have lower sense of self worth (I’m almost 5’8″ and my self esteem is fine). They are generally not considered as feminine as shorter women and therefore less appealing to a lot of men. I’m guessing towering over a woman makes a man feel more masculine. I even sometimes feel protective of petite women.

Nah, Lara, women have a hang up about not dating men that aren’t taller than them.

At a certain point, most men learn this (prolly late high school/early college) and stop trying for marginally good-looking but taller-than-them women, since the risk/reward ratio is poor. Then tall women get insecure about not getting hit on. So a late college tall girl/post college is more hungry for male attention than her smaller counterparts (if hotness is equal).

5’8″ isn’t that tall. The average height of a man is between 5’8″-5’10”. I’m thinking women 5’10” or taller–taller than the average man.

I’ve only known one man to say a woman, in all seriousness, was too tall for him, but that was because he was massively insecure and had a bunch of hangups—he was afraid of any and all rejection, and so rarely dated.

5″8 isn’t that tall. I had a 6″1 FB (I’m 6″3) recently and boy did she work hard in bed. Lovely long legs to wrap around and spoon too. The next one I did was 5″0, actually prefer taller ones now after thinking for years I preferred petite.

True if the guy is tall, not true if the guy is short. I’m 5’9″; most tall girls hate me. There are exceptions, but they’d rather die than give me the satisfaction of going out with me. But I’ve always done well with cute petites.

Another observation: I’ve noticed shorter, more finely-boned women are more likely to be married to men with stereotypically high-testosterone features and protective, leading personalities, while taller, more thickly-boned women are more likely to be married to men with softer features, less facial hair, and more submissive personalities. Moreover, I believe that more is at play than simple SMV sorting.

Anecdotally, it seems that men with protective, leading personalities really do find shorter, more finely-boned, soft-chinned women to be more attractive; likewise it seems that men on the other end of the spectrum really do prefer taller women with sturdier skeletons and more angular jaws — they’re not just settling.

I can only imagine what evo-psych phenomenon is at work here…

Perhaps we each subconsciously know what strengths and weaknesses we might bring to a family unit and search accordingly for a mate whose physical attributes signal that they their personalities might complement us?

I want a man to treat me like a doormat, but I’m not going to train anyone how to do it :S He has to have the self confidence to do it by himself.
I’ll try to be beautiful and feminine and if this will help to awaken an asshole in my future boyfriend, than fine. If it won’t help (because of my age or my education), than I’ll remain single (forever).
I don’t know where you got this idea of ‘training’ from … Would you choose to train a promiscuous feminist into a sweet girl?

:)) Oh no, don’t get me wrong 🙂 please. Maybe ‘doormat’ is not a right word. I plan to keep my self confidence (it’s getting better, actually), but I still want to have a man who will behave like a man, in traditional way.
Maybe ‘doormat’ is not the right word, I think we mentioned ‘stray dog’ somewhere – this is better.

Oh my little Maya 🙂 .. ok…Basically you want a dominate man to balance your ultra femininity? Its Just that word doormat/stray dog frightened me there for a minute. But I think I get what you’re saying now….i think..

Interesting notion, but “self seeking like” mating probably occurs more often than an “opposites attract” style of mating. This means that taller than average women choose to bang / date / marry tall men. And vice versa.

Human beings always tend towards the average though, this is why you may see extremely tall men with very petite girls. Assortative mating ensures that extremes get bred out.

I’m 6’2″, broad shouldered and have a permanent 5 o’clock shadow. I’m definitely the protective type with a leader personality.

Of the women I’m seeing, the one in whom I have the most interest is as you describe (5’4″, fine featured and a generally “girlish” appearance) and very, very feminine.

She’s head over heels in love with me and constantly mentions how she used to fight constantly with the men she dated before me yet she’s always tractable and submissive with me (not groveling or lacking in her own identity, though).

Now, having been born in one of America’s worst cities and having worked in law enforcement for years, I’m able to assert dominance pretty easily in nearly any situation. But she falls in step – happily, from her body language and responses – faster than any other woman I’ve ever dated whenever I draw a boundary or tell her she’s out of line.

We ended up fitting one another far better than either of us expected, so allow me to back your assessment with my personal experience.

I’m the same way with my top lady, who always stays in line if I have to reprimand her for doing something that is obviously a test of my mettle. She knows that I don’t give a fuck what anyone actually thinks — as long as I’m providing for a need and not defrauding or committing any act of violence against someone, they have every option to GTFO and leave me if they can’t accept that I only trust my own methods and rules. Of course, this ends up with me dating women who have typically been fighters or arguers, but they won’t do that with me because I don’t hide the fact that I have options and will merely back burner them rather than dump them outright.

I’d love to know what your shoulder to hip height is in inches and what hers is — I bet they’re closer than you’d guess, considering the height difference.

Sounds like you have a great gal there, and options. Don’t get Oneitis.

* Sounds like you have a great gal there, and options. Don’t get Oneitis.*

I’m glad you say that; thanks.

I don’t believe in throwing bullshit (in real life or online) so I’ll be the first to admit I am an Alpha born but a Beta raised.

I know this because I’ve always had plenty of men willing to take a bullet for me (literally and figuratively) but I’d always screw up fast with women after a brief, successful start. My road to recovery has been long and distance remains before me still – but I’m riding onward with fervor.

Very welcome, but don’t forget that avoiding Oneitis is also for HER sake, not just yours. I’m sure you’ve noticed that women love it when their man has options — it reinforces the woman’s choice to herself, and shows her she she’s desirable because she’s with a desirable man.

Yes, but masculinity or femininity is not only genetic, it’s a consequence of environmental factors, too. Like, lifting weights or eating more protein, maybe. (I made it up, I don’t know if these two really help). But anyway, your theory sounds interesting. I was thinking about becoming more masculine myself (like with lots of weight training, testosterone patch maybe) to get rid of my alpha-male obsessions. I really will try that. Maybe when I will feel more powerful I won’t be attracted to high-T men anymore and I’ll start noticing normal, more girlish guys.

I might confuse things a little … I should say ‘boyish’ instead of girlish. At my age guys still look and behave more like boys than like men (and boys do look more feminine than men do, you have to agree) and this is very normal. Justin Bieber also looks very normal – for his age.
Do you understand now what I wanted to say?

I’m 5’11” and recently started wearing lifts in my boots, making me an apparent 6’1″. The number of women opening me doubled overnight. A good chunk of women ARE attracted to height when all other things remain equal.

I do find more maneaters among the tall chicks than the short ones. I prefer the shorter ones as long as they are frail. Unfortately, in the US, short women are so often overweight.

If you are a guy for instance that is **only** 5’8″ (i.e most of us) then what is more important is carrying yourself in your body language as if you **are** 6’2″. I.E an Alpha is still an Alpha and a Beta is still a Beta no matter what their height.

I don’t disagree with anything you said and it isn’t in conflict what what I’m saying i.e. all things remaining equal, tallness helps attract women. I’m certainly not implying it’s the most important thing, and it’s certainly nowhere near as important as having good game and confidence.

I’m 5’8″ and tend to wear dress shoes which normally have an inch or two of lift by default — but I’m also very athletic in body shape and have to get all of my clothes tailored, and a great tailor knows how to cut shirts, slacks, jackets and even T-shirts to elongate a body. When I meet people that I’ve only met online (I have a pretty good run of fans online who I meet with when I’m in their cities), they’re always shocked that I’m not 6’3″ or whatever.

I have one pair of lifts that offer about a 4″ or so increase — I use them for court dates. On the rare occasion that I actually wear them out of court, I can agree that my attractiveness to the average woman goes up quite a bit. On the other hand, I’ve only been openly denied a phone number or a date based on my height a handful of times in 2 decades of dating — and I appreciate someone’s honesty for saying so.

Would I rather be taller? Sure, but I know way more beta tall guys than alpha tall guys, and in the end I prefer being a man in character, not merely in appearance.

This because we men that are more physically intimidating get double the Beta-inculcation. I believe it’s a mass, early attempt by women at keeping society “safe” the only way they know how.

That’s how it happened for me. My whole life I’ve been more imposing physically than my male peers (Hell, even my law enforcement ID photo got constant comments like “You look way more like a criminal than a cop!”) so growing up I was given double – triple, actually – helpings of “Be nice. Don’t be aggressive. Respect women. Watch your temper.’

The most Beta guys I know could, with just a change of wardrobe and body-language, come off as seriously bad-ass biker-gang members.

I neglected to mention that the two guys I’ve met closest to being Omega were the the two men I knew that, if they dressed as Hell’s Angels, would clear a room with fear. Both were about 6’6″ and, with only a little time in a gym, would look like professional wrestlers.

In fact, this phenomenon is why ♠A (the poker abbreviation for the Ace of Spades) is my handle here. It’s a Motörhead song (a band beloved by both myself and bikers).

Can we define what we mean by ‘tall girl’. I would have said tall is – roughly – six feet and over; but I say that as anything over six foot would be taller than me.

As it would appear to be the case that tall women are less desirable to most men, this in my experience is probably why they seem to have great character, so as to compensate for their physical attributes. The converse is true of men, where short men tend to exhibit greater aggression and pushiness, so as to be noticed.

The greater advantage that tall women have over short women (and the same goes for men) is that excessive weight is far less noticable.

[Editor: The average American female height is 5’4″. I would classify tall women as 5’7″ and above.]

A short girl with high heels on – doesn’t attract much attention. Flashing neon sign is needed for me to take note of their sexy heels, and those tiny legs do those sexy heels no justice.

A tall girl wearing high heels, sashaying down the street – BOOM! gawking galore! There’s a reason Victoria Secret Models are long-legged and hot – that is what men fantasize about when they’re looking doooowwwwn, way down at their tiny little girlfriends.

As long as we’re on the topic of female phenotypes and personality, it is interesting to note that in Roissy’s “Dating Market Value Test for Women,” the following item appears:

18. How high is your forehead?

Low: -1 point
Average: 0 points
High: +1 point

I’m not sure exactly what is meant by a “high” forehead here. Perhaps Roissy is referring exclusively to skull shape? In any case it is fascinating to note how closely the height of a woman’s hairline seems to correlate with aggression in her personality, which is to say that the farther back her hairline begins on her forehead, the more aggressively she is likely to behave. There are a number of complex factors at work influencing men’s hairlines, but hairline height is closely matched with testosterone levels in women.

And if you, like me, are a bit sentimental about the decline of female facial beauty in the west, take a look at the changing hairlines of female movie stars over the decades. You guessed it: contemporary female movie stars are much more likely to have hairlines so high as to look as if they’re balding.

I really can’t wrap my head around why women look so different now than they once did. (Sure, feminine, stay-at-home wives believe they are being punished financially in today’s cultural climate compared to their careerist counterparts, and so believe they’re being “responsible” by not have more than one or two children, while their working upper middle class sisters feel free to have three or more and let them be raised by a nanny/ preschool… but this cannot possibly account for the seismic shift in female appearance and personality we’ve seen within the last five decades.)

I thought it was just the opposite: high forehead=feminine, low=masculine.

[Editor: Forehead height and hairline are separate facial traits. A high forehead can have a forward hairline and a low forehead a receding hairline. Feminine women tned to resemble infants, that is, they are neotenous, and the halmarks of such a face are large wide-set eyes and a high forehead.]

And, as a correction, in the above I should have implicated testosterone/estrogen ratio, not absolute testosterone level. (But this ratio is in fact usually what we are really referring to when we talk about a “high-T” woman, etc.)

I believe one reason you might see less sweetly beautiful faces on actresses these days is because there is more focus on her body and so they are being selected for that. Someone wrote that on here once and it seemed like a good explanation.

Throughout my teens and college years, not a single one of my friends could understand why I had no sexual interest in the most girly and petite females. This pattern was especially perplexing to them because my exterior is for the most part highly masculine, so they couldn’t attribute my eccentricity to “settling.”

They concluded that I was simply a harmless freak, and so too does typical sociobiology, which as Trad Girl notes, concludes that the most feminine women and masculine men are the mating game’s sole winners, and anyone else was resigning themselves to the the left-overs. It’s now my view that my attraction to tall, smart, intellectual and stoic women is my genes’ way of compensating for the feminity my friends couldn’t see in me: lack of competitiveness, pathological emotional sensitivity, extreme fickleness. My genes can’t afford for my sons to have these traits to a greater extent than I do, so they’re pushing me away from girls who are likely to be as feminine in their neurons as they are outwardly.

This is true. Not all men like a very feminine girly woman I suspect. This also exlains why i am turned off by aggressive overly dominate males. Its like a balancing of scales. I tend to like more easy going laid back men maybe b/c my personality is so out there. i will talk to anyone, anywhere and people (strangers and kids) will also just start talking with me out of nowhere. But I found most my successful relationships are with men who are pretty laid back and easy going and somewhat reserved.

You will also talk about yourself as often as you can and take offense when someone says to stop drooling on this website.

Stop drooling on this website.

You know who else is wired to try and interject in every conversation that could possibly relate to them? Adolescent girls. They feel the need to get a word in every conversation they can because at that age their brain is wired towards learning how to focus social attention on themselves. What’s your excuse? At least try and throw in some analysis. “I tend to like more easy going men maybe b/c…” … did you develop past middle school?

Okay. I have not said anything about this until now but it has to now be said. Neeecy can you please GTFO? Noone here gives a fuck about what you think. All your posts are “I… I… I…” Noone comes here to listen to your crap so please leave.

Ask me if I care ???? PLease.. ask me..This is the internet. Act like a BIG BOY or BIG GIRL and use your arrow key (know where that is?) and SCROLL (do you know how to do that?). Yes, its that easy!!!!

I’ll give you partail credit – you did log in under a name unlike the other Anon stalker cowards (and I suspect some hating biatches). There seems to be an obession with me here, yet “nothing I say is important” LOL

I *will* hold my breath waiting for a response (especially from my obsessed anon stalker(s)) b/c I know you will come and continue posting to me and following behind me like stray dogs looking for a meal.

th@gmail.com,
I’m actually the type of woman you’d probably like. My husband isn’t effeminate, but he is mild mannered and not dominant. He is harder working than a lot of “alphas” I know which I always admired. Anyway, for my sons’ sake I’m glad I’m not super feminine. I think my genes will serve them well.

A probably related phenomenon is that your type of woman likes me. And thankfully so, because in a world solely populated by the pixies Roissy prefers, I’d still be a virgin, even if these waifs were throwing themselves at me (which they sometimes do.)

BTW, looking at Natalie Portman’s exquisitely feminine face does gives me pleasure, but of a no more sexual nature than the aesthetic tickles I get from listening to great music or gazing at a Frank Lloyd Wright building.

> Yes, we may complain about a woman’s runaway emotions, her focus on seemingly trite household matters, or her bleeding heart worldview, but we love them for it.

Rubbish. Try spending decades of your life with this sort of person without your feelings drifting toward contempt. We ignore and tolerate these things so that civilization (however rotten) can continue.

> The alternative — dating a woman with a man-like personality, ambition and outlook, however sexy she may be — leaves us feeling like we’re dating an alien impostor

This is a problem? Bang her for what sexiness she has and leave. This she-male is not the only alternative. You can find feminine women with sense. They are rare, but they do exist.

I know short women who are very athletic and presumably high T. Most of them are Latins of some variety. Tough girls, brutally honest. They bark a lot which suggests they’re overcompensating. Can anyone comment on what they’re like in bed? I’m guessing that they skew either toward overly frantic or excessively sentimental. If so, not my thing. I prefer the steady and delicious.

5’11” here. All the best lovers and girlfriends I’ve had are about 5’9″ and fit. No exceptions — but then, none are ever permitted.

In any case, it seems to me that in our ancestral environment, a woman’s kindness, sexual loyalty, cooperative spirit and fertility would have been more important to her mate than her physical strength.

True, but radical sexual dimorphism tends to take a long time to evolve. Tall athletic women tend to pass on their tall athletic bodies to their sons. Short, fine-boned women tend to pass on those traits to their sons.

I myself am torn between the tall athletic type and the small fine boned types.

Most men, their curmudgeonly ribbing to the contrary notwithstanding, really do love these attributes of the feminine woman.

And a lot of men don’t. Particularly nerds. “Why can’t a woman be more like a man?”:

Yes, short women are more sexy than tall women. Like you said taller women have higher T and less estrogen. They are combative and not as good looking as their more shorter feminine counter parts. I have high T women as friends but I cant stand them in relationships.

They are combative and ready to argue at the drop of a hat. I have no problem competing against men or women outside a relationship in the outside world, but I HATE HATE HATE having to compete and fight constantly with a women I’m in a relationship with. Not to mention even the highest T women still has higher levels of estrogen than any man, and thats a bad combination. You get the whining, pettiness, and nagging from the estrogen and the high T just makes it all that much worse.

What is tall? I’m 5’8″. I can be tall in heels which some men might find intimidating.

I’ve had to heighten my alluring, feminine, mysterious side, rather than the sweet, homely, likes to cook and have babies girly side, because the men I date tend to have pre-commitment freak out if you go all coo-ey on them.

I find for taller girls like me, the nonchalant, calmer, more mature, Veronica Lake style of elegance works better than the sweet, petite housewife melarky. It’s what gives tall the girls the edge, we have to stand out from the short girls.

I’m only 5′ 9″, so your comment about having to prop them up during doggy cracked me up. I’ve been with several where I had to kneel on something or get in a standing crouch to pull off normal doggy with them on all fours. that shit sucked.

Tall women, other things being equal, will bear tall sons who might tend land better quality mates themselves. But I guess what’s more important is to avoid shorter than average women, who would tend to bear shorter than average sons. Average height is OK, but less than average height is not something I would wish on my sons.

Having kids with shorter women than yourself will not necessarely shorten your progeny.

I dont know in America, but in Brazil is quite common among whites to have sons much taller than themselves. Among blacks its not uncommon too. And among amerindians and moorish families down here, tall people is quite rare.

In defense of tall women, we can’t pull off the cutesy girly stuff that petite women can. We have to go for a more aloof, refined, classic feminine style. Being all naive, bright eyed and bushy tailed makes tall women look rather clumsy and stupid.

No prob Lara. I’m quite tall for a Chinese girl so people have always commented and I was always taken as being older than I was, even from teens. Obviously, it affected the way I acted. So, perhaps that has something to do with shaping a tall vs short girl’s character.

Haha, that’s a great neg, yes 🙂 When someone said that to me, I immediately thought how high-value this guy must be if I’m not pretty enough to ‘enchant’ him (=make him unable to see any flaws on me). This was some time ago … If today a guy told me I look tired I’d secretly start to panic about whether he really thinks that I look tired (tired=too old–>nobody will ever be able to fall in love with me —> I’ll never have sex nor kids —>I’ll die alone) and I would probably be offended! So I think it’s better to use it only on very young girls, who still look as fresh as possible.

Taller women are easier to pick up in my experience because of the fact that MOST men are betas and are already afraid enough as it is to ask a gal out, so they try to corral all the strengths they can over women, i.e. specifically talking to short ones believing that their taller height will give them a larger ego. Sure, it works, but as a shorter guy myself, I’ve rarely had issues picking up very tall women. I’d say my percentages with tall women are maybe 2-3X as likely to go out with me than a shorter woman.

That’s not to say that I specifically only approach tall women to increase the chance of getting a phone number — I don’t, but a pretty gal is a pretty gal regardless of height, and I’ll approach anyone of any height if I think they’re attractive enough to talk to for a few minutes.

I don’t always think a woman’s height is the main contributing factor to their sons tallness or shortness. I mean if you look at the Nordic/Scandanavian countries where tall men over 6’0″ are AVERAGE I don’t believe the women are as tall. Not sure but i have never heard any real evidence of Nordic /Scandanavian women being much taller than the average female anywhere – although their men are quite tall on average.

Also I read that tallness is equated to environment and standard of living. Socities where there are higher standards of living often produce taller offspring males. Socities (3rd world countries) that lack higher standards of living generally have shorter males. i read this online sometime ago. Not sure how accurate that is. But i would think its the male that drives the height – no?

My father is of norse (troender) and swiss (noric) heritage. He is quite short (170cm) considering his genetic background. But he is no high-T, and was very poor (so you can say he lacked a standard of living). My mother being a mix of south spaniards and alpine germans, is short from all sides of family (there is no a single tall person, both women and men are short in her side of the family).

Me, I was born into a much better standard of living than my father (thanks to my old man), and surpassed him in 3 or 4 inches.

I am 5’7″ and my height bothered me for a time but once I got past it, I never had trouble attracting nice looking women of all heights. Game for a shorter guy IMHO is simply understanding that if a girl rejects you for any reason you don’t fixate. You move on. Eventually you’ll find women who want to be with you (even if it’s only for a night). That’s an important piece of game. Just move on.

[Editor: True. Fixation on women’s judgments is a leading indicator of betaness.]

Both parents contribute genetically to their children’s height. A rule of thumb they taught us in med school was to average the two parent’s heights, and then add two inches for a boy, or subtract 2 inches for a girl, to obtain the predicted height of the adult child. More often than not this will be very close to the actual height.. It’s only a rule of thumb, so I’m sure someone can provide glaring exceptions.

There is a Golden Mean in human proportion and every figure artist is looking for it. It has nothing to do with height, it has to do with the standard of 7 to 7.5 “heads” high. A model that fits within that mean, whether male or female, will absolutely fill up whatever frame you present them in: canvas or film. That’s why a teeny Holly Hunter can carry a scene in a big way, or a leading man can actually be quite slight in person.

While visiting the Vatican I could have never imagined what would happen to me ( 5’2″ ). Our guide was a Rome native older and experienced. Walking through the crowds I needed to position myself advantageously in order to have any chance of viewing anything so I walked with urgency. I was able to stand in front of everyone to capture the view. However, the one time I was well positioned, this LADY sped up and stood right in front of me. I wanted to ask her to please shift to one side a bit, but before I could say anything, the guide SCREAMED out ” HEY YOU….. you need to move behind her (me) because you’re too BIG and TALL. WOW!!! Everyone looked shocked including me. From that point on. NO one, I mean NO ONE dared to stand in front of me. hee! hee! Even walking, NO one walked if I…MOI…..did not walk. lol!!

At the end of the tour, people asked me “How much $$$$ did you give him?” hahhahha!!

I do think that from my experience taller women tend to be bitchier and more aggressive/competitive. On a superficial level though I’m kind of attracted to this within reason. 5’8-5’9 athletic brunette type women are ones I’m probably most attracted to but I can’t imagine dating one; they really are cunts a lot of the time, though can be fun to just hang out with and certainly fun to fuck. Just about the hottest girl in my law school is like this, but of course she’s a complete bitch.

I’m really not attracted to women under 5’3 or so. and my preferred would probably be 5’6-5’9; I’m 5’10. Not sure why that is – I guess it’s that I like a challenge and that I’d subconsciously like faily tall kids. Also, taller women can sometimes be easier pickups because lots of guys are intimidated. So for marriage I’ll probably split the difference and look for 5’6-5’7 or so.

I’m a tall guy 6’5” and i personally prefer tall girls, 5’8” or above. Of course i would bang a short girl if she attracts me, but for a LTR i always go for tall girls. If i go out with a short girl it seems to me that she cannot hear me while walking, and the kissing is awkward too. But for the most part i prefer tall girls because doing it doggy-style to a short girl is complicated.

Slightly wrong — having arm candy in the way of a hot gal pal that you LJBF’d matters to one group of people: other women. Social proof is still important, and nothing helps as much as having a pretty gal on your arm in public when it comes to getting the typical woman’s brain clouded as to WHY you do.

I am a tall guy but I’m also a lightweight. 6’3 and 180lbs. I’ve never hung out with a woman over 5’8. I don’t want to look like I’m banging my daughter so I can’t really hang out with a chick that is too short. But tall women, women over 5’9, that would be interesting. Never done it. I imagine the sex would be out of this world, especially when she puts the scissors on ya. But over 5’10…thats getting a little amazonish for my tastes.

“You know who else is wired to try and interject in every conversation that could possibly relate to them? Adolescent girls. They feel the need to get a word in every conversation they can because at that age their brain is wired towards learning how to focus social attention on themselves. What’s your excuse? At least try and throw in some analysis. “I tend to like more easy going men maybe b/c…” … did you develop past middle school?”

Why are you so effin OBSESSED with me!? You anons love running behind me and stalking me (yet “nothing I say is important”)? LOL The more you insist my opinions don’t matter, the more you respond to every single post I make, the more I know you are OBSESSED with me and everything I say.

LOL you still stalking/posting to me!??? hahahaaaa. OMG its insane. You absolutely are obsessed with me. I don’t know if I should be flattered or afraid. And… yes its the SAME LIGHT BLUE anon avatar. Get a fukin life pathetic stalking obsessed loser!

As someone who received spankings from both mom and dad when I was younger I have to say I hope I do not have to go there with my children (especially if they are girls). I have plainly made up in my mind that no female child of mine will ever receive physical punishment. not even a tap on the butt or whatever. Boys – well I am still on the fence about that.

1.So now we know whats drives this person, she likes spanking A LOT!!!
2.She loves to hurt little boys.

As someone who received spankings from both mom and dad when I was younger I have to say I hope I do not have to go there with my children (especially if they are girls). I have plainly made up in my mind that no female child of mine will ever receive physical punishment. not even a tap on the butt or whatever. Boys – well I am still on the fence about that. ”

So not only she likes spanking, a lot! She also likes to hurt little boys.

I’m Scandinavian, 6’ 4” so clearly above average height around here. Norwegian average height for males I believe is 5’ 11” and 5’ 6” for women, less for other Scandi/Nordic countries. Everyone in my family line is tall (my mom was 5’ 11” and dad’s I think 6’ 3” still though he’s getting old).

And guess what. Lots of fairly beta guys being raised in our family, by very masculine, tall mothers. Even when most of them are honestly feminine in the sense that they sincerely care about children and people in general instead of running after careers and money, there’s just not an iota of the pretty attractive female “shyness”, being intimidated by some things that really aren’t intimidating to a man, and being “insecure” when it’s not needed and things like that. That’s in some ways a good thing, for them, at least. For an example, I’d guess most short-ish women would panic or scream when some… foreign-looking guy comes and tries a grab at their purse on the street late in the evening with not many other people around to help. My sister just decked the guy right in the face with her fist, right there, and the guy stumbled off like a little bitch. Now that’s feminine for you, lol. And that’s the instinctive reaction. No screaming, just face-punching.

All the tall women I know (I know a lot, because there are a lot of them around here) exhibit, to some extent, this same masculine “boldness” and aggression, lacking a better word. They’re really not coy, cute or shy in any way, really in-your-face, just like a guy, and many of them will in fact hit you if you dick with them. Not slap you. Punch you. Some are even pretty good at it. And this isn’t something new that was created by feminism, my grandmothers that were already alive and kicking back during World War 2 were exactly the same, tall and bold, even when being farmer’s wives. It’s just how they are. Granddad used to tell me how granny used to chase off thieves from the farm with an axe or some other nasty implement like that.

Now, by contrast, the short women (5’ 4” and less) I know are far, far more feminine and many of them completely lack the aggression and bold responses to challenges or dangers. It’s immediately noticeable. And they are lots more desirable and attractive to me and pretty much all the guys I know well enough to discuss such things with. It’s a little like dogs, I think. Those little dogs just don’t feel like proper dogs. And tall women feel like there’s something missing – that’s to say, the “fragility” the male mind tends to associate with women, the stuff that’s partly responsible for making you want to protect them.

Finally, my two cents about the “tall sexy supermodels” thing. Bah. I know of no man here that actually thinks those skinny, over-stretched, high-school-boy-with-breast-implants looking women are hot, compared to a short or average height girl with feminine curves (no fat, thank you). That’s just the homo-pedo fashion people speaking. And while many women around here buy that kind of ideal for feminine beauty, practically none of the guys do. Something to consider, ladies.

True, many have nice, feminine faces. But the bodies are a problem, and unlike fat, you can’t diet away your excessive height or eat or train yourself a feminine figure if you really don’t have it in your genes. And surgery is just kind of sad.

My tiny friends get hit on before I do, and I get hit on before my taller friends, pretty consistently and we’re all similar levels of attractiveness.

I’m not technically “tall” by Heartiste’s standard but I’d like to appear more petite so I can attract the attention of more masculine guys — the little SWPL emo boys looooooove me. Sigh.

I’m 5’5-and-a-half” and I love weight lifting. I can put on feminine (not bulky jacked) muscle easily on my medium frame and I have large breasts but low bodyfat -BMI is 22 and I’m working on getting it down to that ideal 20.7. I have wide shoulders and hips but a tiny waist, so a traditional hourglass.

My question for any guy that feels like answering: should I keep lifting weights and cultivate the athletic look or should I just eat lightly and do tons of cardio until I look frailer/littler?

When I’m at 127 pounds I have a 20.7 BMI with perky D-cups and 36-24-36 measurements. My waist is my saving grace. I’d look dykey without it to be sure. Don’t some men make allowances on sturdier bones when there’s a good WHR?

I’ve dated a gal long distance off and on for years who is really athletic, but she’s not muscular per se. She has a flat belly with hints of abs, great arm definition but not bulging, and she’s probably in the 19-20 BMI range. I absolutely love her body, and when she had a year that she had gained some weight I saw my own drive for her plummet a bit.

Don’t do cardio, fuck that malarky. Stick to weight lifting, maybe add in some rock climbing, you’ll be fine. Getting your weight down another 10 pounds will do a lot of justice, and if you can rock a dress well and do your hair and makeup properly, you’ll do great with the right alpha guys.

HIIT is *not* cardio — it’s about maximizing your heart rate for short bursts, versus cardio which is about keeping your heart rate elevated for a long period of time, washing your bloodstream with bad cortisol.

Considering your WHR and that a lot of your excess weight is in your tits, I think you’re at least decent. How bulky are your shoulders, that’s the question. Muscular legs are just fine on a woman, but big shoulders are associated with masculinity.

Men have a visceral reaction to WHR, not BMI. So even a girl who is a little chunky, can push those primitive horny buttons in a man’s brain if her WHR is good. The same can’t be said for a girl with a 19 BMI but the body of a male marathon runner.

You have a point there. I’m currently a bit over 25 BMI so definitely on the chunky side (the infamous LTR laziness has struck me ;s), but my hourglass proportions and thus WHR have stayed the same as when I was slip of a girl of 22 BMI or so. Nor do I get hit on any less, actually in some settings men approach me MORE than when I was smaller, which was quite surprising to me, at first. Guess they think I might be easier, being chubbier? Also I suppose “the girls” do be pretty impressive, for a certain type of man, lol. My man, for example, claims to prefer me this way, bless his heart.

Tits weigh almost nothing, considering how big they can look. My friend who wears a 36H has slightly less than 10lbs of breasts. Your average size pair of boobs weighs less than 3 lbs (according to wiki and plastic surgeons).

Ambition is certainly the arena of men but I’m having problems understanding how ‘outlook’ is masculine given that mothers have a responsibility to prepare for their childrens futures and always have. When Pandora let lose all the evils upon the world hope stayed with her. Hope (which necessarily looks to the future) is the arena of women. How can a woman have hope for a future she never contemplates?

Easy. You do what you do, but don’t ever let it become a higher priority than your family. Simple as that.

Plan for a career that allows you to be at home with your kids, or get a partner who can be a stay at home dad and keep his manhood at the same time. They do exist. Many of them are artists, musicians, and others who planned for careers that wouldn’t take them away from their children.

Just don’t let strangers raise your children. Start thinking about that early and working towards that goal so that by the time the kids come, you’re ready.

I’m not sure if I agree with this post, it sounds pseudo-scientific at best. I’m tall and slim (5’9″, #130) as my mother and grandmother were, and we’re all very feminine and have all the traits on your list (cook, nurture, coo at babies etc.) I know lots of other tall girls, mostly dancers or yoga lovers, who are equally graceful and feminine. On the flip side, I’ve noticed lots of short women with loud, abrasive, “look at me” attitudes, especially at work. It’s like they make up for being less visually imposing with imposing personalities.

It’s true that tall girls get approached less, especially if they’re pretty. But the men who do approach tend to be more confident and alpha than average – flashy guys who like the “arm candy” effect. For some tall girls scaring off the betas is a good trade-off. Short guys also pursue me aggressively, usually cocky alpha gym rat types (can’t speak for all tall girls, but others have told me the same). I think it’s a status thing for them, just like being with a little spinner might be for a taller guy. Men always seem to chase the ones who are “out of reach” so to speak.

Anyway, my feelings are hurt by the suggestion that tall girls are universally loud, man-jawed sluts. It isn’t true.

Spiralina,
It’s too much of a generalization in my opinion. I know plenty of tall, feminine women and many short, abrasive ones. I just think short women are less physically imposing which may be why men feel this way. Anyway, I’m glad I’m on the tall side and I’ve found short men do like us. I think subconsciously they want taller sons.

I prefer that height moreso for the leggy look. i would still want to keep my boobs and booty. Either way all women should be happy with what they have and do the best they can with it. This is the first time i am ever hearing that tall women are considered masculine. i’ve never seen or heard that outside of here.

Yeah, I don’t know many men who have height preferences IRL. I know a few guys who explicitly prefer shorties and a few who go for the amazons, but it seems to be an equal split and they’re outliers – the vast majority of men I’ve met don’t seem to care about height either way, as long as the woman is hot.

Many guys here have a long checklist of specific traits they want in a woman. Some of them are genuine and some are keyboard jockeying (i.e. I won’t touch anything below a 9 – and not even a 10 if her kneecaps are too sharp!) IRL any woman in decent shape with a pretty face and a nice attitude can find a good man. Who cares if dudes on the internet think you’re too whatever? It’s not a numbers game for us.

“(i.e. I won’t touch anything below a 9 – and not even a 10 if her kneecaps are too sharp!)”

Yes, I’ve heard guys talking almost like that in real life, too. I’ve read it somewhere that this is because they are exposed to lots of very beautiful girls in the media today and that’ s why they are not content with the real women around them.
Guys who talk like that are usually the ones who don’t have much to offer, but still they expect perfection from their women.

I agree. Its pure entertainment when reading these boards. Its also quite eye opening at how delusional and damaged some men can be.

As you said in THE REAL WORLD most guys just want an attractive girl – height doesn’t matter as long as she is not abnormally tall. I don’t see tall girls ever short of attention nor short girls. Men like variety. I do still think the media pushes a more tall, slender ideal but at the end of the day people go with what they like.

For me a shorter man has to have a lot more to offer than a taller one for me to choose him. It sounds like that holds true for most women. Therefore shorter men who want to improve the quality and quantity of women they attract will have to work harder at their other attributes.

So taller guys, in “coasting too much on their height” are pretty much laid back and rarely have to display other qualities (By this l mean personality). This then probably makes them more attractive to the opposite sex by being mysterious and aloof.

(stupid computer won’t let me post directly in the tree for some reason)

Lara,

I don’t necessarily want to be toooo skinny. I would love to keep my boobs and some booty but man i would love being 5’9 and 130-140.you ‘ve got much room to play around with when you’re tall and people just stare at you in awe. Honestly 5’8 is perfect but i wouldn’t turn down 5’9 at alll. LOL

I don’t necessarily want to be toooo skinny. I would love to keep my boobs and some booty but man i would love being 5’9 and 130-140.you ‘ve got much room to play around with when you’re tall and people just stare at you in awe. Honestly 5’8 is perfect but i wouldn’t turn down 5’9 at alll. LOL

I’m 6’3″ and I like tall girls, around 5’7″-6’1″ I guess. Partially for the supremely narcissistic reason that they look more natural next to me, but also for practical reasons. Walking at the same speed, not having to bend over to hug/kiss/etc.

Criticisms toward tall western women are totally warranted; however, I live in Japan, and tall Japanese girls tend to be more attractive than average (I haven’t seen a bad-looking tall Japanese gal yet.) Height in women is not a desirable trait in Japan, so they also tend to be more insecure and act more feminine to compensate. Score!!

Makes sense, since most women are naturally inclined to want taller men for protection. But a shorter buff guy can also put in some work when it comes time to protecting. Although tallness is males is very desirable to many women, its his confidence level either way that does it. A muscular short guy is confident.

(stupid computer won’t let me post directly in the tree for some reason)

@ Lara,

I don’t necessarily want to be toooo skinny. I would love to keep my boobs and some booty but man i would love being 5’9 and 130-140.you ‘ve got much room to play around with when you’re tall and people just stare at you in awe. Honestly 5’8 is perfect but i wouldn’t turn down 5’9 at alll. LOL

One reason why shorter women tend to seem more feminine than taller women is that apparently contemporary young women do not learn to cultivate feminine traits in their body language.
Such as, when a woman walks or sits down, it is feminine to carry herself as if she is very lightweight. That is so simple. How difficult could it be to learn to do that consistently? Why isn’t it obvious to more women today?
Yet so many women today walk and sit down as if they are so heavy — ‘clomp clomp clomp, whump’ … etc. What a turn off.

Yeah, a lot of tall women have poor posture, and poor posture is going to affect behavior negatively. I’m 6’1″ and had a first drink date with a 5’10 girl last week. She had on a black sundress, was thin but not too much and had great posture. Pure pleasure. Got some auxiliary laughs from some shortie girl nearby throwing me dirty looks for god knows what reason.

Hannah
Yes, indeed, guys care about the strength of a girls bone-structure. I mean, do you have any idea what it is like to be a guy when a girls body begins to break down in the middle of a fuck?
Try to imagine the inevitable conversation with the E.R. Docs. Or the homicide police if your luck was completely lapsed.

In bed I favor women who are around 5 foot 7 inches. However I do think shorter women around 5-2 are more family oriented. Even more important than that is the size of their feet, I hate women with big feet.

The same self delusion applies to fat chicks. They are ashamed of looking bigger than men, but express it by saying “it’s hard to find men that are any good” (ie large enough to make their own bloated bodies look small in comparison).

Completely true. I’m short and couldn’t care less about a woman’s height and have dated girls from 4’11” – 6′. However, women very much care.

My best friend in college was 6’4″ and dated a girl 6’1″. She was very open about the fact that she mostly was with him because she’d be embarrassed to be with a shorter guy. Pathetic. Felt bad for him.

I prefer longer girls. More sexy and the ones I know are just as feminine as short ones, but are indeed less likely to do drama and neurosis. Most short girls i have been with were intolerable for LTR because of their emotionality and hypersensitivity

And to those who don’t want small because the girl will look like a kid, I say, if she ACTUALLY looks like a child, this is a huge kink factor.

You know how they say that arousal of any sort gets interpreted as sexual, with a girl? Take her bungee jumping and to horror movies, and such? If you are a walking sexual fetish that freaks people out, and you play it up by dressing her in a mini skirt and a dog collar, she will be in a constant state of arousal, and attribute it to you.

Micro mini little girls are the bestest times 100.

My current is under 5 feet, but looks like an adult. That can work too.

Interesting. I keep hearing how very masculine men like the very feminine women the most, and vice versa. And it sounds like some less masculine men like less feminine women here, to make up for their own lack of manly traits. But does anyone know if this means the less feminine women will like their men less masculine? Prefer/tolerate betaness better? I’m only 5’6 but both my parents are taller, and I have some feminine traits and some masculine ones. And I also don’t like men to be too masculine or alpha.

Emma, men/women are attracted to their reciprocal. Very masculine to very feminine. Very feminine to very masculine. Neutral to neutral. I am 3:1 masculine to feminine men and I am attracted to 1:3 women.

Attractive female athletes? There’s only maybe a handful of them that any guy would date over, say, a cheerleader or a model. Also, pro athletes have some of the most rigid schedules in the world. Who else are they gonna date besides other athletes? It’s not like they’re meeting a lot of men outside sports and sponsors.

Most male athletes would rather date models and movie stars than WNBA or PGA players. I think this actually argues in favor of the original premise.

The trick for cerebral, ambitious and independent girls like yourself, or for the emo artsy guys you like, is to find a partner who brings out the feminine essence of the woman and the masculine nature of the guy. Otherwise you guys become roommates instead of soul-mates. Unfortunately, it’s a lot harder than just finding the biggest dude or the shapeliest girl in the room.

Just curious: despite having a strong masculine side, as you say, aren’t you in fact more sexually attracted to someone like Daniel Craig than Johnny Depp?

Thanks for the advice, and I think you’re right about finding a partner who brings out the feminine essence for the woman, and masculine for the guy. I’ve never dated a man who was more feminine than me, so it haven’t been a problem. As for Daniel Craig and Johhny Depp, I think they are both good-looking, but I’ve seen many more movies of the latter and think more warmly of him.

Kyle, I’m in Japan too and agree with you about the convenience of having a small height differential. I’m 5′ 11″ (180 cm) and my better half is 5′ 5″ (165 cm), and I often wish she were just a little taller when holding her hand and that kind of thing.

On the other hand, one reason I’m glad she’s not so tall is that her imperfect body (well, *she* thinks it’s imperfect) makes her put in a lot of effort to look better. Her torso is long and her legs are short, and she’s pretty sensitive about that. To keep people from noticing her short legs, she *never* wears pants — I don’t think she even owns a pair — and almost always wears medium- or high-heeled shoes. Shorter-than-average skirts and dresses all the time. She wears stockings or tights every day (with the season dictating the color) so that her legs will look a little thinner and more shapely, and it works.

I wouldn’t have it any other way. Her body and fashion are perfect; I’m so glad she never got caught by the feminist bug. Instead, she recognizes where she could improve, and does what works. She doesn’t understand why I admire her for being like this — to her, it’s just natural!

“generalization” comes right out of the bailiwick of gender equal-ism. General trends still exist. Now that we live in a multicultural society, we need Jesus to spit mud in our eyes. We are getting ever so blinded to sexual dimorphism covered in layers of environmental adaptation.

I believe one reason you might see less sweetly beautiful faces on actresses these days is because there is more focus on her body and so they are being selected for that. Someone wrote that on here once and it seemed like a good explanation

I don’t agree. The thing is, vulgar smiles and actitudes are much more acceptable today, while sweet faces aren’t as much, so you see perfectly sweet looking chicks posing in the most vulgar/deformed ways.

He likes to tower over me. In heels I am about 3 inches shorter, but without them there is a bigger difference. I like it too. Although with friends and when going out I do wear heels. Can’t wear a minidress and flats, yuck.

The shorties are almost always a lot more fun to be around. Since females start puberty sooner than boys, most tall females you meet as an adult were likely relatively taller than their peers starting as early as age 11, and they have been hit on frequently ever since. They don’t try as hard, because they rarely had a need to develop sparking personalities to attract male attention. Short girls are forced to learn how to attract in other ways.

The tall gorgeous ones try to be fashion models (who are boring as dirt). The short gorgeous ones want to be actresses.

All the cute, fun, smart-ass, outgoing girls who are able to have a normal conversation I have ever dated have been 5’6″ or less.

The only problem with shorties is that they can become fat so easily. Ten extra pounds on a woman who’s 5’10” doesn’t mean nearly as much as ten extra pounds on someone who’s 5’2″.

I’ve also noticed that the really short ones (5’4″ and under) are very easily threatened physically. You have to take extra precautions not to frighten them with unintentional physical intimidation. In my experience, they don’t like hanging out in bars and meeting random strangers, and generally prefer meeting through friends and in other safe situations, where they can relax and be charming.

“I’ve also noticed that the really short ones (5’4″ and under) are very easily threatened physically. You have to take extra precautions not to frighten them with unintentional physical intimidation. In my experience, they don’t like hanging out in bars and meeting random strangers, and generally prefer meeting through friends and in other safe situations, where they can relax and be charming.”

i’m 5’11 and the tallest girl i’ve been with was 6’5″ (a model, slender but not skinny) and incidentally one of the most feminine women i’ve ever known.

the social proof of walking into a venue with a tall hot goddess on your arm is staggering. women will want to get with you and men will want to be you. even just walking down the street, people stop and stare.

shortest girl i’ve been with was about 5’1. i think that’s my lower limit. any shorter than that and i’ll feel like i might step on her by accident or i won’t be able to find her without a microscope. also, shorter girls need to watch their weight more carefully. a 5 pound gain on a short girl isn’t the same as a 5 pound gain on a taller one.

Short girls are better, my wife is 7″ shorter than me. I know she likes it since women want to be dominated!

I’ve been reading alot here. i realize i am not a total beta loser i thought it was, but i do have some terrible beta tendencies. I’m surprised I’ve been married this long looking back at my past beta moments of weakness.

Thanks for the great website, my sons will not suffer the same fate of betaness.

Yes, also women like to feel “small” even if it is just comparatively.

Hey, can anyone shed light on this body type? I am small but have long limbs and my loooong Gollum fingers which make my hands almost as big as my husbands. I learned to high five people with my hands turned to the side, no joke. I have super long skinny feet too. Size 8.5. Measurements: 35, 25, 36. Broad shoulders and big head comparative to body size. Athletic looking.

Hmm. I think you may be hourglass but with very small bones (even though they are long). I only say hourglass b/c of your measurements 35, 25, 36. But it seems you just have longer more skinnier limbs. It doesn’t sound like you are pear or apple shaped.

I’m still thinking hourglass. There are 3 main female shapes that I know of (could be more). Hourglass, Pear and apple. Many pear shaped women do have very long limbs outside but carry weight on their lower half. You sound evenly porportioned from chest, hip, wasit.

Long skinny limbs to me signals small bone *structure*. I’m pretty solid myself and At my normal weight I have your measurements (36,26,36) but i don’t have long skinny fingers or feet which to me says my bone structure is not small like yours. Its funny how people can be the same shape but some will have different bone structures.

Just my own experience: I have found that short busty, i.e. high estrogen, women gave me crappy sex compared to taller flatter, i.e. high testosterone, women. But that is based upon ONS or FB sex.

The busty shorties want the attention more than the sex and don’t want to do it all night long or just fuck for fun, they are often looking for a relationship, while it is the flat chested taller ones who love to fuck for the sex itself and don’t get tired or attached. I am sure the testosterone gives them sexual patterns that are more man-like.

Visually, I love looking at boobs, a nice rack always catches my eye, but I have found boob size to be somewhat inversely correlated with sexual performance.

Of course, all such statements are generalizations, and individual people can vary. Your genetic makeup just gives you tendencies, experience and social programming shape these tendencies a lot.

Old Guy — It’s a pretty broad generalization, but I’ve noticed the same pattern. Busty girls tend to be more passive in bed, while flat-chested ones just work harder.

My theory is that Big Tits are so fetishized and constantly being ogled, that their owners begin to self-fetishize. So when breasty girls get into a sexual situation, they have this mentality of “I’ve given him access to my glorious tits, my work here is done.”

On the other hand, a flatty maybe has the notion that she’s an “incomplete woman” gnawing at her self-esteem, and she has to make up for it by being a really good lay. Seems like the flat girls tend to also offer ‘special service’, i.e. deepthroat, anal, fetishy stuff, etc.

(I’m more of an ass-man, and have had busty girls complain that I wasn’t paying enough attention to their tits. I love the look of nice sized tits under clothing or lingerie, but when it comes to the actual sex, most of them don’t ‘stand up’, and honestly sometimes seem in the way. But being kinda disinterested makes it easy to notice how much psychological gratification some girls get from having their boobs displayed and played with. It’s like it justifies their existence as a Sex Object moreso than the actual sex. )

Hmm, you may be right as an average…definitely noticed a correlation. Shorter girls seem to be more feminine, polite, and caring but it could be environmental as well.

But with everything, there’s always exceptions. The last two girls I’ve dated (including current girlfriend) have been around 5’7″-5’8″ and are some of the sweetest, most feminine girls I’ve ever met. Just remember to be open and not let your first impressions taint your view.

I would also like to say on the subject of height, that being averagely tall and naturally well proportioned, I have never felt either too tall or too short, and as Lara rightly says later on tall men do not have to make an affort, however, I have noticed, that whether with men or women, I feel comfortable provided I do not have to raise my gaze to meet theirs, however if someone is say even an inch taller than me so that my gaze raises to meet their eyes, I feel instinctively uncomfortable. I instinctively mentally reject a woman taller than me as a freak much as I might reject a midget. I would guess that there is some genetic or evolutionary reason for this. Is it possible that one reason women wear high heels is to compensate for a similar feeling of inferiority?

I do think you are onto something with evolutionary reasons why men/women seek mates who possibly may balance out what they have. Some others here mentioned it. But I have noticed quite a few wealthy men (in media) who are short but typically have taller wives. Not sure about this match up but curious as to what the draw is.

re heels. I believe women wear heels b/c (1) it does make the legs and feet look quite sexy/feminine. (2) it does add to height which does make the legs look longer and slimmer. (3) some women feel being taller is more ideal in some instances. (4) heels can help create slightly more muscular legs for some women (who seek this) b/c some heels are so high it causes you calf muscles to flex and also makes some other parts look more definded (booty). (5) men love to see us in them! ;0)

A relevant story from a couple of decades ago: Four friends talking before out noontime hoop run. I’m 6’6″ and the shortest of the group, the others are 6’7″ to 6′”9. The question comes up: What is the tallest girl you would date? The consensus: 5’10”.

The tallest guy married a girl 5’0″, and he was a supreme alpha (former major league pitcher) The rest of us married women around 5’8″. I am 58 married to a 46 yr old who is a true alpha 10, according the Roissymeter. You don’t see women like my wife in day to day life. Of course it is my 2nd marriage. Tall guys tend to be pretty beta the first go round. My youngest son is 6’7″ and clueless around women, but still in his teens. His time will come.

Argh. Short women are more feminine? Really? That leaves out many women who were tall, at least by the averages of their time – like Audrey Hepburn (5’7″), Sophia Loren (5’8″); Farrah Fawcett (5’7″); Christie Brinkley (5’7″); Nicole Kidman (5’10”); Uma Thurman (5’11”). On the other hand, it also overlooks many short women who were considered sexy, but would also seem slightly mannish today: Joan Crawford; Gloria Swanson; Carole Lombard; Bette Davis, and others. The former were known for being a bit fragile, while the latter were known to be tough, stubborn women for whom career meant everything.

Stereotypes may have some validity, but they can confuse rather than illuminate their users in situations where intuition won’t work. Beware…

If talking about marriage and family ..in general forget the narcissistic which in general means forget US women and most women who come from a priviledged background.

@hanna – focusing on what other people think is attractive will surely make you miserable ..develop your inner self while staying physically healthy..not the answer you want to hear ..but ..when your 40 you will be glad if you listened

*shrug* I don’t know, possibly. But anything that adds a positive aesthetic to something or someone is going to be embraced. I think heels do, offer that and that is why women wear them. fortunatley, women today have the choice to not wear heel if they don’t want to.

I wasn’t *shruggging* off your point at all. i was shrugging at the idea that women are programmed this way, b/c I don’t think women care or realize it. There are a lot of things women are programmed to do to attract the opposite sex. Heels *may* be one of those b/c of the aesthetic pleasure it brings to most mens eyes. I don’t wear heels soley for men, i wear them also b/c flat shoes kill my feet and b/c I like the way the way heels accentuate the feet and legs and tighten other parts. There are plenty of women who agree. Men also do things aesthetically to attract women that could be possibly “superficial”. Like adding in hair plugs, getting penis enhancements lol I’m sure there are other things.

But I am interested in reading anything you know of that suggests this “programming” of women wearing heels. I think that would be a great read :0)

I also observe that, as the saying has it ‘ the taller we stand girls the slimmer we look’ and this is perhaps another reason for shorter women wearing high heels – though it can be overdone. High heels also has the effect of thrusting out the breasts, which may be another motivation.

There’s been a good deal of discussion about the extent to which a child’s height (particularly a son’s) is heritable from the mother. Remember, genes and environment interact throughout development, and there are factors other than genes (even in a nutritionally ideal environment) which would influence a mother’s height.

For instance, the ever-controversial evolutionary psychologist Satoshi Kanazawa published an article hypothesizing, among other things that a woman’s height can be influenced, in nearly “real time,” by cultural factors: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16174352

(In this case, his example was that a female’s shorter stature might be caused by early menarche brought on by polygyny cues — i.e. a girl’s body is cued that she finds herself in an environment in which there is especially fierce competition for mates, thus menstruates earlier, and is therefore shorter.)

But one can imagine other cultural scenarios influencing female height. For instance, a contemporary girl might, rather than stay home and learn homemaking and mothering skills with female relatives, be pushed to excel in manly pursuits — intellectual competition, sports, self-promotion — and thus her body is cued that, in this particular environment, a high testosterone to estrogen profile is called for. Lo and behold, she turns out taller, while her genes remain unchanged.

What things do women do to attract men ? Is it grooming, and what they wear ? But what else ? I’ve heard stories of women returning to supermarkets over and over, in the hope meeting that smiling stranger again.

You really want me to tell you our secrets?! LOL Of course you know the grooming and style thing. But women do lots of body movements/language, looks when we are around a guy we are attracted to or want to attract.

Some women stick out their butts, poke out their chests, flip their hair, create a seductive laugh, stand a certain way, move a certain way, place themselves in a position where you can see her best assests, open their eyes and mouth really wide when something is even slighty funny or “shocking”, slightly tilt our heads to the side, put the tip of our finger/fingernails between our teeth looking around (like we’re lost or thinking really hard about something lol), looking confused and/or lost with our fingernail/finger between our teeth (this works wonders!!!) The possibilities and list are endless!

According to several books on body language, it is the female who “opens” the negotiation for sex/romance, and she does this 95% of the time via body language. Read “The definitive book of Body Language” by Allan and Barbara Pease, “What Every Body is Saying” by Joe Navarro, and “Undercover Sex Signals” by Llowndes. They describe everything from The Jewelry Tug to The Dangling Shoe.

Personally, I like short ones (being vertically challenged myself), but I have dated plenty of tall ones as well. Zero correlation in my personal life. Plenty of femmy tall ones and grouchy peach-fuzzed short ones. There are a variety of amazon who seem to be particularly dude-like, but I have about as much interest in them as I do in other dudes: none, whatsoever.

I am amused and surprised at the number of people on this board with doctorates in genetics and evolutionary biology! Darwin is rolling over in his grave. Seriously, the notion that a feminine guy is attracted to a tall masculine woman because evolutionarily she will give him more masculine children, and other similar nonsensical theories – well, my head spins.

If men prefer shorter women (and clearly this thread indicates that guys’ preferences are all over the map) I suspect it’s that we are a bit hardwired to want to be dominant in all aspects of life, particularly in our sexual relations. Women also intuitively are attracted to men who are just a bit dominant, and that’s often expressed in the man’s superior size and strength.

‘Course, I’ve been married twice and both the women were slightly taller than me and my current GF is my exact height, so what the hell do I know!

A question for the ladies. What is your “ideal” body type, height and build. As a man, IMO, the most esthetic height for a dude is around 6′- 6’1″, and weight approximately 180-190, muscular, but not overly bulky.

I won’t argue with that at ALL. That sounds perfect to me. Although I would say 6′ -6’4 is “ideal” although not a deal breaker if he’s below that. AS much as I prefer taller men, i am not a height nazi. I also have strange tastes. i’ve dated short & skinny (Ironically he had the biggest you know what and was the best in bed lol) and I’ve dated middle and tall with sturdy build. *shrug* I just love men! And there are a lot of other girls out there who are the same. They have a preference but would be willing to adjust it for the right guy.

My ideal is shorter and much thinner than that. 190 is nearly double my weight, that’s huge. I am barely 5’5″, and I find height differences beyond 4-5″ awkward. I don’t want to have to throw my neck out to kiss my guy. Plus most taller guys don’t have good proportions; small heads, short legs.

The man I am crushing on right now is probably 5’10”, 150, very lean, gorgeous facial and skeletal bone structure (gorgeous everything),

I am an American man, and I have decided to boycott American women. In a nutshell, American women are the most likely to cheat on you, to divorce you, to get fat, to steal half of your money in the divorce courts, don’t know how to cook or clean, don’t want to have children, etc. Therefore, what intelligent man would want to get involved with American women?

American women are generally immature, selfish, extremely arrogant and self-centered, mentally unstable, irresponsible, and highly unchaste. The behavior of most American women is utterly disgusting, to say the least.

This blog is my attempt to explain why I feel American women are inferior to foreign women (non-American women), and why American men should boycott American women, and date/marry only foreign (non-American) women.

BOYCOTT AMERICAN WOMEN!

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The more I value and cultivate my masculinity, the more I am drawn to overly sweet, feminine and petite women. On a conscious or subconscious level I perceive tall women as being in competition with my masculinity rather than complimenting it. It just doesn’t work. I am 6 feet tall and usually go for women that are 5’1-5’5, 5’7 is my cut off. Having a woman look up at you with adoring eyes is something every man should experience.

@Alec , there is a certain genre of caucasian women who prefer black cock or at least want to experiment and sample some black cock. So even if the fellow was short, women who want to sample black cock will do so anyway. This is like comparing apples to oranges- for those specific women-they are only interested in black cock whether short or tall-so you cant really compare with those men with the rest of us-from a black cock loving woman perspective. This is why when I lived in Sydney (Australia) if I wanted to pick up I would generally go out with a black friend.

Regarding short women, overly short is not at all attractive to moi, for example 4’11 , 5′ etc completely escapes my radar. In my case from say 5’2 upto where my head is level with her boobs is ok! I guess this is one of the reasons I dont usually have the hots for far east asian women( eg chinese , Japanese , Koreans etc) though of course there have been exceptions.

1. if you are 6’1 or over, tall chicks are easy to pick up because they dont date short men, rulling out 85% percent of men shorter than 6″2. 5’8 and taller prefer 6’1 and taller. intelligent tall women are desperate because between iq and height, 95% of men are ruled out.

2. short girls are fugly. their legs are stumpy and poorly proportioned. this is why models are always 5’9 or taller. they age poorly and lose their looks by 30.

1.Neecy, stop being a hamster. It makes me embarressed.
Ah, well that’s enough of the numbers… Okay, so I’ve noticed that my tall friend gets hit on more, yet her relationships tend to be more shallow, I’m 5’3 and I get on less, but my relationships tend to be deeper. Also, she flirts like crazy, but isn’t crazy in the bedroom, I don’t flirt like crazy, but I really do enjoy making my guys groan lol Truthfully though, this is a debate that won’t get far, what really matters is this “It doesn’t matter if she’s short or tall, if she’s fat and ugly, she won’t get any at all” lol also, I’m worried, I’m studying to be a doctor, but I want to start a family before I’m 28.. I love cooking and taking care of my boyfriend, but he is put off with my career choice, is it possible to still be in college and be a housewife?

I suspect estrogen levels have about as much effect on women’s height as humanity has on global climate…sure evidence shows that the characteristic could have an effect but other influences dwarf (hehe) its influence.

What has a bigger influence on how effeminate women are is the feminazi training they receive in all walks of life today.

One of feminaiz’s draws is that it offers rejected women a way to get back into society. Big women aren’t rejected on looks and body ratios, though. Instead there rejection comes from the fact that most men prefer women who are smaller than them, because taller women make them feel submissive.

Tall women are naturally limited by this fact, they feel rejected since fewer guys from the availability pool are attracted to them. This forces them to adopt a feminazi belief so they can have an influence on society because they would be otherwise ignored.

That feminazi act further causes men to reject them.

It takes a stronger man, not necessarily a taller man, to harness one of these Amazons, but the reward for those that do is phenomenal.

I can understand the cutesy pull of shorter women, but to be honest, as stated above, slender, tall women in heels win every time. We stand out in a crowd and are willowy and graceful. Also, huge over-generalization that all tall women are unfeminine–but to be fair, I think tall women tend to fall into two types a)future CEOs/professionals and B)graceful, willowy, free-spirits. Also, as stated above, we tend to be more sophisticated and classically beautiful (e.g. Audrey Hepburn).

I’d also like to point out that saying that pointing to the average height shows that more guys prefer short men is kind of silly. It’s the average, meaning being tall is on the margins. There are tons of reasons that could explain this.

I also think this idea that short women are more feminine is silly because you forgot the wonderful short-female counterpart–the overly tanned, loud-mouthed, obnoxious Snooki-esque promiscuous women/future hen. These types of women are way worse than any high-strung professional IMO. At least you don’t have to interact with these types of women/probably don’t, but the little buzzing Snookis are a public nuisance and/or noise pollution.

At any rate, this whole post silly. People like what they like. I think most people can agree that regardless of height, you need to be physically attracted to someone, and being fit, regardless of height, is a good start, and you need to like their personality, that is, they need to be a good person.

You said tall girls are more of a cuckolding risk and I 100% DISAGREE with you. I beta backslide a lot and it’s the taller girls that give me second chances.

It is with the tall girls I date out of my league, punch above my weight.

I made out with a short girl, the night I met her. We went out, but I was distracted by the Mavs Heat game. I saw her the next weekend but she was noticeably indifferent. A week later on Friday I tried to set plans with her, and she left open the possibility. I considered her a good prospect. The next day at noon her Facebook status changed to in relationship. Thinking this was a mistake I asked her and she said it was no mistake. She’s 5-3, he’s 5-6, and I’m 6-1. She said she recently met him and they hit it off.

The same thing happened to me with a different girl. She’s 5-5; we went out on a Thursday, got to second base. A week later I see her holding hands with a short 5-7 guy during the pride parade. He must be her gay best friend. Nope!

There is more competition for short girls since the requirement “guy taller than me” includes every guy.

Give me the tall girls. That’s my son in the NBA. You’ll see me with the model at the beach.

Also, I’m not quick to discuss hbd, but the gap in height between men and women is smallest in Asians and largest in blacks. Whites as usual in the middle. Shaq had a 5 foot tall wife. Interpret as you wish.

1. shorter girls date the highest status guys. The partners of short girls is a better judge of who and what is alpha than the partners of tall girls.

2. You are more likely to see interracial dating with taller girls.

3. Taller girls have a lower count than shorter girls.

4. Shorter girls are more repulsed by beta than taller girls. Not only do short girls have more guys to choose from, but short girls need a strong partner to protect her. A tall girl can protect herself.

5. A beta is better off with a tall girl.

It’s not often I read new things, but this was new.

I’m still not sure I agree that short women are nicer. When I’ve passed the threshold with short girls, their behavior changed as you’ve observed above. It was nice, while it lasted. However when I turned beta I was cut off and unceremoniously dumped. Taller girls are more even keeled and act within a tighter range of emotion. They are the same before and after sex. There is less shit testing. Tall girls give me second chances.

All that said, it seems like taller girls have fewer options and must be more desperate. I’d assume they form tighter bonds with the guys they’re involved with.

The shortest girl I’ve been with is maybe 5-5 or 5-6. For my money, I’m betting on the tall girls.

Let me qualify my interracial dating remark: I refer to black men with white women, when the woman is attractive and would seem to have other options. Think Victoria Secret models Doutzen Kroes and Kate Upton.

White guys like Asian women (most common form of interracial) because, by definition, they are shorter and more feminine than white women.

@Ohio Stater,
Have you considered this from the Asian woman’s perspective? Asian women are very, very attracted to caucasian men, and to any other sort of men, because in many cases their men are not as big physically. The attraction runs big time both ways.
I find asian women generally too short for me, and maybe its because I’am not an alpha guy who has excessive testesterone as you say. Quite an informative opinion may I add, Ohio stater. I tend to agree with what you saay at 8.32pm.

Arnie asks, “Have you considered this from the Asian woman’s perspective?”

In The East, the West, and Sex: A History, Richard Bernstein writes:

“Though every sort of combination does take place […] the general trend of recent years has been that the overwhelming percentage of Chinese-foreign pairings involves foreign men and Chinese women rather than foreign women and Chinese men. Several explanations for this are commonly given […] But almost everything in this picture relates to the experience of colonial power, which has always enhanced the prestige and glamour, and therefore the aura of masculinity of Western men while reducing that of Asians.”

[Editor: That sounds like a pat, deconstructivist explanation intended to obscure the full truth well known to readers of this blog.]

White men have more testosterone than Asian men. White men have larger testicles than Asian men. (See Sex at Dawn, etc.) But it can only help the white man looking to get with an Asian woman that his very race is a symbol of power and privilege.

@Traditional girl,
I’am afraid I couldn’t agree with what you have read there. Asian women have a thing for caucasian men, though they would not ever say it aloud in public.
Its just the same way some white women have a thing for black men and would not sleep with any other man. For example , Barrack Obama’s step mother(not his own mum)-she met Barrack’s father in New York, and after just 6 weeks she went to Kenya, and married Barrack’s father(though he already had 2 previous wives). Then after 10 years, because Barrack Obama senior used to beat her up to discipline her,as you do when women don’t know their place(just kidding),she divorced him and married another black man , this time from Tanzania. Not to mention Barrack’s own mum.

With Asian women -caucasian men pairings, the percentage of asian women who would like a caucasian man is far greater , I would say than white women who exclusively sleep with black men only. I think its exclusively a biological attraction thing, it has little to do with colonialism. I live in Australia , and there is a large number of asian women here, from various asian countries, some of those countries never having been colonised by white people, so I wouldn’t give much credence to the colonial deconstructivist argument. It basically boils down to lust , both from an asian woman’s perspective and a white man’s perspective.
Lust is the prime directive and lust is best!

Shortness is *associated* with high estrogen, not caused by it. Shortness is an evolutionary adaptation to a malnutritioned environment, so short women are probably more likely to be descended from lower classes and thus, of low intelligence. Roissy is giving bad advice with this one.

The “desirability” of short women vs. tall women is all relative. I believe that it depends on who you’re asking. I have been in several long term relationships (one was a marriage) with men who range from 5’6″ to 6’5″, all relatively fit and attractive. I am 5’8″.

Being tall hasn’t stopped men from hitting on me. I’m not bragging, I mean I have my own insecurities. Shorter girls sometimes have a tendency of ragging on taller girls because they are insecure, thus making the taller girls insecure. Tall girls want to be short, short girls want to be tall. It’s a vicious cycle.

I think desire is directly related to your own personal standards and insecurities.

I think this is a crock of BS. I am 5’8″ and I am one of the least competitive women I know. One of the nastiest, manliest little bizooches I have ever met is just a shade over 5 feet. Actually short women, like short men, often seem like they have a chip on their shoulders, like they have something to prove.

All tall men think they are superior to short men
and nearly all women want to be doiminated by big strong men.
A woman’s height does not matter much.

Don’t kompletely kid yourselves, though.

While male height is certainly a desirable trait — there are plenty of passive, insecure and/or very beta dudes to be found among tall(er) males — especially in modern-day AmeriKwa.

In fact, as another online commentator has said, if a guy is tall and has no (or weak) game (or just genuine confidence) — it is harder, not easier for him to get respect from a woman (or others in general) than it would be for a short(er) man — since it is assumed that the taller guy in this comparison would be a super-beta.

Point is, there are pros and cons with all types of people; and secondly, don’t judge a book by it