Sale of Tranmere Rovers' former training ground crucial to development of sports academy, says new owner

THE new owner of Tranmere Rovers has said plans for the future of the club would be jeopardized if the sale of its former training ground for redevelopment is rejected.

Mark Palios raised his concerns a week before Wirral planning committee meets to consider the League Two club’s application to sell its Ingleborough Road site in Birkenhead, to make way for development of 90 houses.

The scheme goes hand-in-hand with a parallel application to create four full-sized football pitches plus one junior academy pitch and one training area on land near the Solar Campus in Leasowe.

A decision on the proposals was deferred by Wirral planning committee last month until site visits had taken place.

A final decision will be made when it meets on Thursday, with planners recommending approval.

The schemes have the support of the club's supporters' trust, who recently said development would be in the interests of the wider community and the club.

Mr Palios said: “We have already publically stated that our plans to make Tranmere Rovers Football Club self-sustainable are predicated on two planks.

“One is being a development club and the other is being more than a Football Club, with Rovers becoming a sports hub in the heart of the community.

“The move to Solar Campus is a central part of our thinking and if we fail to achieve this aim it will present a serious set-back to our plans.

“If we are unable to follow through on our plans to build a first class academy complex at Solar Campus, the club will find it impossible to provide the adequate training facilities required to retain our prized Category 3 Academy status.

“Failing to gain Category 3 status would mean Tranmere Rovers losing the crucial central funding provided to Football League clubs and this would put in jeopardy our ability to continue with our youth development programme.

“This would stop the current and future generation of youngsters achieving their dreams of playing professional football and also end the work the Academy does in the community in helping young people on the Wirral.”

He added: “The sale of players from our Academy has raised over £15m in recent years and income of that level is impossible to find in the current climate.

“So on several levels it is important for Tranmere Rovers and the Wirral community that we are successful with our plans to move to Solar Campus.

“We are truly excited about this project and the benefits it can bring to the area as a whole.”

But the scheme has sparked controversy, with campaigners calling it “disrespectful” to the memories of Wirral soldiers killed in the First World War.

Ingleborough field is a dedicated memorial to 88 former students of Birkenhead Institute, who lost their lives in the war, among them the renowned war poet Wilfred Owen, who was educated at the school.

Eighty-eight trees representing the fallen soldiers were planted around the field as a living memorial to the dead in the 1920s.

Among those against the plans is campaigner Dean Johnson. Speaking on behalf of Birkenhead Institute Old Boys, he told the Globe: "It is gratifying that new ownership at Tranmere Rovers has resulted in them finally breaking silence on the need to dispose of the Memorial Fields in this way.

"For the past two years, Peter Johnson has ignored our pleas for consultation and discussion with Birkenhead Institute Old Boys, who hold dear to the example of those of our number who have made the ultimate sacrifice for this Country.

"This is something which has caused a great deal of unnecessary upset. Had we had such an opportunity this could have led to other options being considered, in particular particularly in terms of the current inadequate proposals for a Memorial Feature.

"In the new spirit of openness which Mark Palios appears to be bringing to the Club, we hope that he will agree to meet us to enable such discussions to take place with the aim of finding a solution of which we all can be proud."

Comments

So far WBC has never done the right thing so I cannot see them starting now despite it being the Centenary of the start of the First World War.

So far WBC has never done the right thing so I cannot see them starting now despite it being the Centenary of the start of the First World War.water1lily

So far WBC has never done the right thing so I cannot see them starting now despite it being the Centenary of the start of the First World War.

Score: 0

Lurkinhead
8:31pm Mon 18 Aug 14

Hi Pollexfen.

I agree, you certainly do not need to make any apologies on behalf of Dean Johnson, as I am sure he is more than capable of recognizing himself where he has let himself down badly with his antics, and his agenda of self-publicity for his commercial interests.

Does he speak for a sizeable body of people though, as I thought you indicated during our previous correspondence (apologies, I haven't checked back, so will stand corrected if my recollections are letting me down) that whilst you admired him sticking his head above the parapet, so to speak, he was not a spokesman for BIOB, and you weren't taking a stance on his conduct during the whole debate? So just to be clear then, if Dean Johnson does speak officially for a body of people, who are they, and are they happy to associate themselves with some of his outlandish behaviour, such as photoshopping war graves, and wishing his opponents "A Pox Upon Thine House"? Incidentally, other opponent of the proposed development who have posted on these pages have been quick to disassociate themselves from the man's stunts and excessive behaviour, and been at pains to clarify that he did not speak for them.

Who knows, maybe Mark Palios will speak to BIOB inclusive of Dean Johnson, but what I was trying to suggest to you in my previous post was that as the man has become such a toxic distraction to the real issues, your very real and genuine concerns would be more likely to find an ear if he withdrew (or was withdrawn), but hey, at the end of the day, that is a matter for you.

Pollexfen, you have come across as a reasonable bloke during our previous interactions, but with respect, I believe you have let yourself down badly when you say:

"The memory of the Fallen is that which we all stand to lose from this outcome. You can’t put a price on that, but it may have unexpected consequences. Football supporters and players are superstitious people and I would have thought that it would have occurred to somebody that from the moment that the Club started showing such blatant disrespect to the dead, its fortunes have nose dived! "

Now to me, that sounds very much like you are suggesting some divine providence on your side of the debate, which is not only bizarre, but frankly has overtones of Dean Johnson's "A Pox Upon Thine House" nonsense. Are you suggesting God is on your side, as if you have the exclusivity on perspective re the Ingleborough debate, because if so, that is as arrogant as it is deluded? Personally, I am not religious, although I respect anybody's rights to their own beliefs, but when I look around the world, it is telling how many conflicts are as a result of some group or other claiming God is on their side, and I don't believe that to be healthy. More specifically, I believe it is entirely unworthy of this debate.

Equally, when you conclude by stating:

"but this is not going to go away for Tranmere Rovers if they bring shame on the citizens of Wirral, just because they have flogged off the ground and think they have moved on."

With respect, just because you suggest TRFC may bring shame on Wirral, doesn't make it so. That is your belief, but to me, that has been one of the main problems during this whole debate - i.e. there are various arguable standpoints, all worthy of respect - whereas one side has by & large claimed the absolute moral high ground, when at best it is an arguable point of view, and worse, condemned their opponents, simply for having the temerity to hold an alternative view. My take, for what it's worth, is that I perceive that the majority of the Wirral public, disappointly, simply don't care about Ingleborough Road one way or the other, and of those that do, some support the planning application and some don't. Surely that's fair enough isn't it, without getting all pious about stuff, as that really isn't helpful is it?

As regard this "not going away", for the sake of argument, if the planning application does go in Rovers' favour, what is it you intend to do? From my standpoint, as I have already stated, it would be my hope that a compromise could be reached over the scale and design of the intended memorial, and that dialogue between all parties who were prepared to listen to the opposing point of view without the necessity for outright condemnation or trying to seize the non-existent moral high ground, would follow. It is my belief that including a failed musician with a track record of stooping really low in his tactics does not fit that criteria. You, of course, may disagree.

Hi Pollexfen.
I agree, you certainly do not need to make any apologies on behalf of Dean Johnson, as I am sure he is more than capable of recognizing himself where he has let himself down badly with his antics, and his agenda of self-publicity for his commercial interests.
Does he speak for a sizeable body of people though, as I thought you indicated during our previous correspondence (apologies, I haven't checked back, so will stand corrected if my recollections are letting me down) that whilst you admired him sticking his head above the parapet, so to speak, he was not a spokesman for BIOB, and you weren't taking a stance on his conduct during the whole debate? So just to be clear then, if Dean Johnson does speak officially for a body of people, who are they, and are they happy to associate themselves with some of his outlandish behaviour, such as photoshopping war graves, and wishing his opponents "A Pox Upon Thine House"? Incidentally, other opponent of the proposed development who have posted on these pages have been quick to disassociate themselves from the man's stunts and excessive behaviour, and been at pains to clarify that he did not speak for them.
Who knows, maybe Mark Palios will speak to BIOB inclusive of Dean Johnson, but what I was trying to suggest to you in my previous post was that as the man has become such a toxic distraction to the real issues, your very real and genuine concerns would be more likely to find an ear if he withdrew (or was withdrawn), but hey, at the end of the day, that is a matter for you.
Pollexfen, you have come across as a reasonable bloke during our previous interactions, but with respect, I believe you have let yourself down badly when you say:
"The memory of the Fallen is that which we all stand to lose from this outcome. You can’t put a price on that, but it may have unexpected consequences. Football supporters and players are superstitious people and I would have thought that it would have occurred to somebody that from the moment that the Club started showing such blatant disrespect to the dead, its fortunes have nose dived! "
Now to me, that sounds very much like you are suggesting some divine providence on your side of the debate, which is not only bizarre, but frankly has overtones of Dean Johnson's "A Pox Upon Thine House" nonsense. Are you suggesting God is on your side, as if you have the exclusivity on perspective re the Ingleborough debate, because if so, that is as arrogant as it is deluded? Personally, I am not religious, although I respect anybody's rights to their own beliefs, but when I look around the world, it is telling how many conflicts are as a result of some group or other claiming God is on their side, and I don't believe that to be healthy. More specifically, I believe it is entirely unworthy of this debate.
Equally, when you conclude by stating:
"but this is not going to go away for Tranmere Rovers if they bring shame on the citizens of Wirral, just because they have flogged off the ground and think they have moved on."
With respect, just because you suggest TRFC may bring shame on Wirral, doesn't make it so. That is your belief, but to me, that has been one of the main problems during this whole debate - i.e. there are various arguable standpoints, all worthy of respect - whereas one side has by & large claimed the absolute moral high ground, when at best it is an arguable point of view, and worse, condemned their opponents, simply for having the temerity to hold an alternative view. My take, for what it's worth, is that I perceive that the majority of the Wirral public, disappointly, simply don't care about Ingleborough Road one way or the other, and of those that do, some support the planning application and some don't. Surely that's fair enough isn't it, without getting all pious about stuff, as that really isn't helpful is it?
As regard this "not going away", for the sake of argument, if the planning application does go in Rovers' favour, what is it you intend to do? From my standpoint, as I have already stated, it would be my hope that a compromise could be reached over the scale and design of the intended memorial, and that dialogue between all parties who were prepared to listen to the opposing point of view without the necessity for outright condemnation or trying to seize the non-existent moral high ground, would follow. It is my belief that including a failed musician with a track record of stooping really low in his tactics does not fit that criteria. You, of course, may disagree.Lurkinhead

Hi Pollexfen.

I agree, you certainly do not need to make any apologies on behalf of Dean Johnson, as I am sure he is more than capable of recognizing himself where he has let himself down badly with his antics, and his agenda of self-publicity for his commercial interests.

Does he speak for a sizeable body of people though, as I thought you indicated during our previous correspondence (apologies, I haven't checked back, so will stand corrected if my recollections are letting me down) that whilst you admired him sticking his head above the parapet, so to speak, he was not a spokesman for BIOB, and you weren't taking a stance on his conduct during the whole debate? So just to be clear then, if Dean Johnson does speak officially for a body of people, who are they, and are they happy to associate themselves with some of his outlandish behaviour, such as photoshopping war graves, and wishing his opponents "A Pox Upon Thine House"? Incidentally, other opponent of the proposed development who have posted on these pages have been quick to disassociate themselves from the man's stunts and excessive behaviour, and been at pains to clarify that he did not speak for them.

Who knows, maybe Mark Palios will speak to BIOB inclusive of Dean Johnson, but what I was trying to suggest to you in my previous post was that as the man has become such a toxic distraction to the real issues, your very real and genuine concerns would be more likely to find an ear if he withdrew (or was withdrawn), but hey, at the end of the day, that is a matter for you.

Pollexfen, you have come across as a reasonable bloke during our previous interactions, but with respect, I believe you have let yourself down badly when you say:

"The memory of the Fallen is that which we all stand to lose from this outcome. You can’t put a price on that, but it may have unexpected consequences. Football supporters and players are superstitious people and I would have thought that it would have occurred to somebody that from the moment that the Club started showing such blatant disrespect to the dead, its fortunes have nose dived! "

Now to me, that sounds very much like you are suggesting some divine providence on your side of the debate, which is not only bizarre, but frankly has overtones of Dean Johnson's "A Pox Upon Thine House" nonsense. Are you suggesting God is on your side, as if you have the exclusivity on perspective re the Ingleborough debate, because if so, that is as arrogant as it is deluded? Personally, I am not religious, although I respect anybody's rights to their own beliefs, but when I look around the world, it is telling how many conflicts are as a result of some group or other claiming God is on their side, and I don't believe that to be healthy. More specifically, I believe it is entirely unworthy of this debate.

Equally, when you conclude by stating:

"but this is not going to go away for Tranmere Rovers if they bring shame on the citizens of Wirral, just because they have flogged off the ground and think they have moved on."

With respect, just because you suggest TRFC may bring shame on Wirral, doesn't make it so. That is your belief, but to me, that has been one of the main problems during this whole debate - i.e. there are various arguable standpoints, all worthy of respect - whereas one side has by & large claimed the absolute moral high ground, when at best it is an arguable point of view, and worse, condemned their opponents, simply for having the temerity to hold an alternative view. My take, for what it's worth, is that I perceive that the majority of the Wirral public, disappointly, simply don't care about Ingleborough Road one way or the other, and of those that do, some support the planning application and some don't. Surely that's fair enough isn't it, without getting all pious about stuff, as that really isn't helpful is it?

As regard this "not going away", for the sake of argument, if the planning application does go in Rovers' favour, what is it you intend to do? From my standpoint, as I have already stated, it would be my hope that a compromise could be reached over the scale and design of the intended memorial, and that dialogue between all parties who were prepared to listen to the opposing point of view without the necessity for outright condemnation or trying to seize the non-existent moral high ground, would follow. It is my belief that including a failed musician with a track record of stooping really low in his tactics does not fit that criteria. You, of course, may disagree.

Score: 3

freebase
3:02pm Fri 15 Aug 14

how does dean johnson or the kopite loving globe know it would be a short term fix

One is being a development club and the other is being more than a Football Club, with Rovers becoming a sports hub in the heart of the community.

“The move to Solar Campus is a central part of our thinking and if we fail to achieve this aim it will present a serious set-back to our plans.

“If we are unable to follow through on our plans to build a first class academy complex at Solar Campus, the club will find it impossible to provide the adequate training facilities required to retain our prized Category 3 Academy status.

“Failing to gain Category 3 status would mean Tranmere Rovers losing the crucial central funding provided to Football League clubs and this would put in jeopardy our ability to continue with our youth development programme.

“This would stop the current and future generation of youngsters achieving their dreams of playing professional football and also end the work the Academy does in the community in helping young people on the Wirral.”

how does dean johnson or the kopite loving globe know it would be a short term fix
One is being a development club and the other is being more than a Football Club, with Rovers becoming a sports hub in the heart of the community.
“The move to Solar Campus is a central part of our thinking and if we fail to achieve this aim it will present a serious set-back to our plans.
“If we are unable to follow through on our plans to build a first class academy complex at Solar Campus, the club will find it impossible to provide the adequate training facilities required to retain our prized Category 3 Academy status.
“Failing to gain Category 3 status would mean Tranmere Rovers losing the crucial central funding provided to Football League clubs and this would put in jeopardy our ability to continue with our youth development programme.
“This would stop the current and future generation of youngsters achieving their dreams of playing professional football and also end the work the Academy does in the community in helping young people on the Wirral.”freebase

how does dean johnson or the kopite loving globe know it would be a short term fix

One is being a development club and the other is being more than a Football Club, with Rovers becoming a sports hub in the heart of the community.

“The move to Solar Campus is a central part of our thinking and if we fail to achieve this aim it will present a serious set-back to our plans.

“If we are unable to follow through on our plans to build a first class academy complex at Solar Campus, the club will find it impossible to provide the adequate training facilities required to retain our prized Category 3 Academy status.

“Failing to gain Category 3 status would mean Tranmere Rovers losing the crucial central funding provided to Football League clubs and this would put in jeopardy our ability to continue with our youth development programme.

“This would stop the current and future generation of youngsters achieving their dreams of playing professional football and also end the work the Academy does in the community in helping young people on the Wirral.”

Score: 0

Jack Boot
4:31pm Fri 15 Aug 14

If Palios does the decent thing to meet with Dean Johnson its imperative that the BI Old Boys are represented, Pollexfen who seems to have excellent knowledge on this issue would be a good start.

Otherwise this would be viewed as a local football club BUILDING ON A WAR MEMORIAL FOR PROFIT

If Palios does the decent thing to meet with Dean Johnson its imperative that the BI Old Boys are represented, Pollexfen who seems to have excellent knowledge on this issue would be a good start.
Otherwise this would be viewed as a local football club BUILDING ON A WAR MEMORIAL FOR PROFITJack Boot

If Palios does the decent thing to meet with Dean Johnson its imperative that the BI Old Boys are represented, Pollexfen who seems to have excellent knowledge on this issue would be a good start.

Otherwise this would be viewed as a local football club BUILDING ON A WAR MEMORIAL FOR PROFIT

Score: -7

Reremnart
4:55pm Fri 15 Aug 14

Oh look Dean Johnson again qand not for the first time supposedly representing the Birkenhead Institute Old Boys (I, myself, am an ex pupil of that school and I can assure you that he most definitely doesn`t represent me). I have asked several times who exactly these "old boys" are and if they are an official body but so far without reply and other than Dean Johnson I haven`t seen a single name mentioned. Me thinks it is just one "Old Boy" myself, that old boy being a certain publicity hungry failed folk singer and museum owner who just so happens to be a friend of the editor of this publication.

Oh look Dean Johnson again qand not for the first time supposedly representing the Birkenhead Institute Old Boys (I, myself, am an ex pupil of that school and I can assure you that he most definitely doesn`t represent me). I have asked several times who exactly these "old boys" are and if they are an official body but so far without reply and other than Dean Johnson I haven`t seen a single name mentioned. Me thinks it is just one "Old Boy" myself, that old boy being a certain publicity hungry failed folk singer and museum owner who just so happens to be a friend of the editor of this publication.Reremnart

Oh look Dean Johnson again qand not for the first time supposedly representing the Birkenhead Institute Old Boys (I, myself, am an ex pupil of that school and I can assure you that he most definitely doesn`t represent me). I have asked several times who exactly these "old boys" are and if they are an official body but so far without reply and other than Dean Johnson I haven`t seen a single name mentioned. Me thinks it is just one "Old Boy" myself, that old boy being a certain publicity hungry failed folk singer and museum owner who just so happens to be a friend of the editor of this publication.

Score: 16

uncatom
7:51pm Fri 15 Aug 14

Reremnart wrote…

Oh look Dean Johnson again qand not for the first time supposedly representing the Birkenhead Institute Old Boys (I, myself, am an ex pupil of that school and I can assure you that he most definitely doesn`t represent me). I have asked several times who exactly these "old boys" are and if they are an official body but so far without reply and other than Dean Johnson I haven`t seen a single name mentioned. Me thinks it is just one "Old Boy" myself, that old boy being a certain publicity hungry failed folk singer and museum owner who just so happens to be a friend of the editor of this publication.

Oh dear what bitterness, there are many that are against the sale of Ingleborough and the best you can do is slag off DJ again, in the meantime TRFC are picking which part of the Wirral will suit them best again without due consultation with the local residents ( I have a relative that lives adjacent to the new land grab) how long will it be before they decide it doesn't suit their requirements and is sold off ? it wont be long before TRFC have bought half of Wirral, given this is the third move over the past few years.

[quote][p][bold]Reremnart[/bold] wrote:
Oh look Dean Johnson again qand not for the first time supposedly representing the Birkenhead Institute Old Boys (I, myself, am an ex pupil of that school and I can assure you that he most definitely doesn`t represent me). I have asked several times who exactly these "old boys" are and if they are an official body but so far without reply and other than Dean Johnson I haven`t seen a single name mentioned. Me thinks it is just one "Old Boy" myself, that old boy being a certain publicity hungry failed folk singer and museum owner who just so happens to be a friend of the editor of this publication.[/p][/quote]Oh dear what bitterness, there are many that are against the sale of Ingleborough and the best you can do is slag off DJ again, in the meantime TRFC are picking which part of the Wirral will suit them best again without due consultation with the local residents ( I have a relative that lives adjacent to the new land grab) how long will it be before they decide it doesn't suit their requirements and is sold off ? it wont be long before TRFC have bought half of Wirral, given this is the third move over the past few years.uncatom

Reremnart wrote…

Oh look Dean Johnson again qand not for the first time supposedly representing the Birkenhead Institute Old Boys (I, myself, am an ex pupil of that school and I can assure you that he most definitely doesn`t represent me). I have asked several times who exactly these "old boys" are and if they are an official body but so far without reply and other than Dean Johnson I haven`t seen a single name mentioned. Me thinks it is just one "Old Boy" myself, that old boy being a certain publicity hungry failed folk singer and museum owner who just so happens to be a friend of the editor of this publication.

Oh dear what bitterness, there are many that are against the sale of Ingleborough and the best you can do is slag off DJ again, in the meantime TRFC are picking which part of the Wirral will suit them best again without due consultation with the local residents ( I have a relative that lives adjacent to the new land grab) how long will it be before they decide it doesn't suit their requirements and is sold off ? it wont be long before TRFC have bought half of Wirral, given this is the third move over the past few years.

Score: -6

Lurkinhead
9:04pm Fri 15 Aug 14

With no particular reference to Ingleborough Road, but just on Dean Johnson, seeing as he gets another prominent mention from his friend, Globe reporter Craig Manning, but as the man is desperately trying to drum up support for his flagship musical event, staged in his home borough, that very few people care about, here is a typical review, which perhaps illustrates why:

"The mark of a strong and lasting relationship is that one is prepared to forgive any transgressions and moments of weakness. It’s a rule that holds just as true for us lovers of theatre, but she can sometimes be a trying mistress.

On paper this musical interpretation of Wilfred Owen’s war poetry seems to have a lot going for it: musical contributions from Pink Floyd’s Dave Gilmour, script contributions by David Quantick and a narration by Christopher Timothy — albeit disembodied.

Owen’s story itself is a compelling tale. Forced to move from a comfortable house owned by his grandfather to the rougher area of Birkenhead, the young Owen showed determination, driven by his strong religious faith, to better himself. After a period of working as a teacher, he enrolled in the army and was soon plunged into battle in the First World War. The horrors he witnessed and experienced in the trenches inspired a body of work that now marks him as probably the greatest of the war poets.

Writer and director Dean Johnson’s play even makes quite a promising start with a title song performed by Lindsay Field that has a nice turn of phrase and infectious chorus.

Sadly after that the whole things goes rapidly downhill. Despite the best efforts of Chloe Torpey as Owen’s mother, what should be a heart-rending tale fails to engage either on a dramatic or emotional level. Unmemorable song follows unmemorable song until the brief sixty-minute running time begins to feel as long as the war itself.

Charlotte Roberts contributes choreography of little relevance that falls somewhat uneasily between contemporary dance and mime and only succeeds in tipping the whole affair into a rather embarrassing pretentiousness.

The life and work of Wilfred Owen has the potential to make a gripping and emotive piece of theatre, sadly this isn’t it.

Directed by Dean Johnson
Written by Dean Johnson
Music by Dean Johnson

Additional script contributions from David Quantick and Paolo Hewitt

Additional music by David Gilmour

Cast
Susan Owen​Chloe Torpey
The Figure​Charlotte Roberts
The Singer​Lindsay Field
Featured narration​Christop
her Timothy
The Homeless Veteran​Dean Johnson"

http://www.westendwi
lma.com/bullets-daff
odils/

Just for the record, I note that his "play" has been comprehensively outsold by such giants of the theatre as "Miss Giggles Entertains" and "Angelina Ballerina - The Mousical"! When is Dean Johnson going to take the hint I wonder?

With no particular reference to Ingleborough Road, but just on Dean Johnson, seeing as he gets another prominent mention from his friend, Globe reporter Craig Manning, but as the man is desperately trying to drum up support for his flagship musical event, staged in his home borough, that very few people care about, here is a typical review, which perhaps illustrates why:
"The mark of a strong and lasting relationship is that one is prepared to forgive any transgressions and moments of weakness. It’s a rule that holds just as true for us lovers of theatre, but she can sometimes be a trying mistress.
On paper this musical interpretation of Wilfred Owen’s war poetry seems to have a lot going for it: musical contributions from Pink Floyd’s Dave Gilmour, script contributions by David Quantick and a narration by Christopher Timothy — albeit disembodied.
Owen’s story itself is a compelling tale. Forced to move from a comfortable house owned by his grandfather to the rougher area of Birkenhead, the young Owen showed determination, driven by his strong religious faith, to better himself. After a period of working as a teacher, he enrolled in the army and was soon plunged into battle in the First World War. The horrors he witnessed and experienced in the trenches inspired a body of work that now marks him as probably the greatest of the war poets.
Writer and director Dean Johnson’s play even makes quite a promising start with a title song performed by Lindsay Field that has a nice turn of phrase and infectious chorus.
Sadly after that the whole things goes rapidly downhill. Despite the best efforts of Chloe Torpey as Owen’s mother, what should be a heart-rending tale fails to engage either on a dramatic or emotional level. Unmemorable song follows unmemorable song until the brief sixty-minute running time begins to feel as long as the war itself.
Charlotte Roberts contributes choreography of little relevance that falls somewhat uneasily between contemporary dance and mime and only succeeds in tipping the whole affair into a rather embarrassing pretentiousness.
The life and work of Wilfred Owen has the potential to make a gripping and emotive piece of theatre, sadly this isn’t it.
Directed by Dean Johnson
Written by Dean Johnson
Music by Dean Johnson
Additional script contributions from David Quantick and Paolo Hewitt
Additional music by David Gilmour
Cast
Susan Owen​Chloe Torpey
The Figure​Charlotte Roberts
The Singer​Lindsay Field
Featured narration​Christop
her Timothy
The Homeless Veteran​Dean Johnson"
http://www.westendwi
lma.com/bullets-daff
odils/
Just for the record, I note that his "play" has been comprehensively outsold by such giants of the theatre as "Miss Giggles Entertains" and "Angelina Ballerina - The Mousical"! When is Dean Johnson going to take the hint I wonder?Lurkinhead

With no particular reference to Ingleborough Road, but just on Dean Johnson, seeing as he gets another prominent mention from his friend, Globe reporter Craig Manning, but as the man is desperately trying to drum up support for his flagship musical event, staged in his home borough, that very few people care about, here is a typical review, which perhaps illustrates why:

"The mark of a strong and lasting relationship is that one is prepared to forgive any transgressions and moments of weakness. It’s a rule that holds just as true for us lovers of theatre, but she can sometimes be a trying mistress.

On paper this musical interpretation of Wilfred Owen’s war poetry seems to have a lot going for it: musical contributions from Pink Floyd’s Dave Gilmour, script contributions by David Quantick and a narration by Christopher Timothy — albeit disembodied.

Owen’s story itself is a compelling tale. Forced to move from a comfortable house owned by his grandfather to the rougher area of Birkenhead, the young Owen showed determination, driven by his strong religious faith, to better himself. After a period of working as a teacher, he enrolled in the army and was soon plunged into battle in the First World War. The horrors he witnessed and experienced in the trenches inspired a body of work that now marks him as probably the greatest of the war poets.

Writer and director Dean Johnson’s play even makes quite a promising start with a title song performed by Lindsay Field that has a nice turn of phrase and infectious chorus.

Sadly after that the whole things goes rapidly downhill. Despite the best efforts of Chloe Torpey as Owen’s mother, what should be a heart-rending tale fails to engage either on a dramatic or emotional level. Unmemorable song follows unmemorable song until the brief sixty-minute running time begins to feel as long as the war itself.

Charlotte Roberts contributes choreography of little relevance that falls somewhat uneasily between contemporary dance and mime and only succeeds in tipping the whole affair into a rather embarrassing pretentiousness.

The life and work of Wilfred Owen has the potential to make a gripping and emotive piece of theatre, sadly this isn’t it.

Directed by Dean Johnson
Written by Dean Johnson
Music by Dean Johnson

Additional script contributions from David Quantick and Paolo Hewitt

Additional music by David Gilmour

Cast
Susan Owen​Chloe Torpey
The Figure​Charlotte Roberts
The Singer​Lindsay Field
Featured narration​Christop
her Timothy
The Homeless Veteran​Dean Johnson"

http://www.westendwi
lma.com/bullets-daff
odils/

Just for the record, I note that his "play" has been comprehensively outsold by such giants of the theatre as "Miss Giggles Entertains" and "Angelina Ballerina - The Mousical"! When is Dean Johnson going to take the hint I wonder?

Score: 13

Pollexfen
10:54am Sat 16 Aug 14

Good morning all
First of all to say that when the Mark Palios statement was released yesterday, Dean was asked for a comment by the Liverpool Echo and he referred it to me. I do not know if it will be printed but this is what we as representing the Old Boys said:
"It is gratifying that new ownership at Tranmere Rovers has resulted in them finally breaking silence on the need to dispose of the Memorial Fields in this way. For the past two years, Peter Johnson has ignored our pleas for consultation and discussion with Birkenhead Institute Old Boys, who hold dear to the example of those of our number who have made the ultimate sacrifice for this Country. This is something which has caused a great deal of unnecessary upset. Had we had such an opportunity this could have led to other options being considered, in particular particularly in terms of the current inadequate proposals for a Memorial Feature.

In the new spirit of openness which Mark Palios appears to be bringing to the Club, we hope that he will agree to meet us to enable such discussions to take place with the aim of finding a solution of which we all can be proud"

I would like to believe that Mark will agree to this. To this end we have written a letter politely requesting a meeting and it was delivered yesterday. I must admit Lurkinhead that I did not write in that we would not bring Dean along but we did offer, that discussions could and if necessary would, be conducted in the strictest confidence.

I really hope that Mark will not be troubled by the same sense of ego that PJ clearly has and will truely have the controlling interest he says he has. He is right to want to put Rovers in the centre of the community but this needs to embrace as much of that community as he can and not just narrow section. Ratepayers of Wirral are in danger of being short changed over this and they may be perfectly happy to see this, but in addition it should be a matter of Pride with which we remember our war dead and not a matter of shame. You cannot carry a community where there is a section who are in resentment (especially when this can be resolved through simple negotiation).
If Mark Palios does respond however, I am sure that it will not be until after he secures the Planning Consent next Thursday which he will inevitably get. Even ther there are things that can be resolved.

Who are BIOB? Good question. Well it consists first and foremost of a social grouping of a large number of individuals and if Reremnart were an Old Boy (which I suspect he isn't) I could put him in touch with the Secretary. Within that group there is a subgroup of people actively opposed to what is on the table. I am one of a small circle within that again that are trying to find options other than the glorified 'skateboard ramp' which is on 'offer' and which has unanamous disapproval. As I have said before we are a broad church and when and if we have options to discuss it will be necessary to seek a consensus amongst our members, but it will be with a recommendation from the small active group.
This matter also requires active participation and leadership from the Council which is sadly missing.

Good morning all
First of all to say that when the Mark Palios statement was released yesterday, Dean was asked for a comment by the Liverpool Echo and he referred it to me. I do not know if it will be printed but this is what we as representing the Old Boys said:
"It is gratifying that new ownership at Tranmere Rovers has resulted in them finally breaking silence on the need to dispose of the Memorial Fields in this way. For the past two years, Peter Johnson has ignored our pleas for consultation and discussion with Birkenhead Institute Old Boys, who hold dear to the example of those of our number who have made the ultimate sacrifice for this Country. This is something which has caused a great deal of unnecessary upset. Had we had such an opportunity this could have led to other options being considered, in particular particularly in terms of the current inadequate proposals for a Memorial Feature.
In the new spirit of openness which Mark Palios appears to be bringing to the Club, we hope that he will agree to meet us to enable such discussions to take place with the aim of finding a solution of which we all can be proud"
I would like to believe that Mark will agree to this. To this end we have written a letter politely requesting a meeting and it was delivered yesterday. I must admit Lurkinhead that I did not write in that we would not bring Dean along but we did offer, that discussions could and if necessary would, be conducted in the strictest confidence.
I really hope that Mark will not be troubled by the same sense of ego that PJ clearly has and will truely have the controlling interest he says he has. He is right to want to put Rovers in the centre of the community but this needs to embrace as much of that community as he can and not just narrow section. Ratepayers of Wirral are in danger of being short changed over this and they may be perfectly happy to see this, but in addition it should be a matter of Pride with which we remember our war dead and not a matter of shame. You cannot carry a community where there is a section who are in resentment (especially when this can be resolved through simple negotiation).
If Mark Palios does respond however, I am sure that it will not be until after he secures the Planning Consent next Thursday which he will inevitably get. Even ther there are things that can be resolved.
Who are BIOB? Good question. Well it consists first and foremost of a social grouping of a large number of individuals and if Reremnart were an Old Boy (which I suspect he isn't) I could put him in touch with the Secretary. Within that group there is a subgroup of people actively opposed to what is on the table. I am one of a small circle within that again that are trying to find options other than the glorified 'skateboard ramp' which is on 'offer' and which has unanamous disapproval. As I have said before we are a broad church and when and if we have options to discuss it will be necessary to seek a consensus amongst our members, but it will be with a recommendation from the small active group.
This matter also requires active participation and leadership from the Council which is sadly missing.Pollexfen

Good morning all
First of all to say that when the Mark Palios statement was released yesterday, Dean was asked for a comment by the Liverpool Echo and he referred it to me. I do not know if it will be printed but this is what we as representing the Old Boys said:
"It is gratifying that new ownership at Tranmere Rovers has resulted in them finally breaking silence on the need to dispose of the Memorial Fields in this way. For the past two years, Peter Johnson has ignored our pleas for consultation and discussion with Birkenhead Institute Old Boys, who hold dear to the example of those of our number who have made the ultimate sacrifice for this Country. This is something which has caused a great deal of unnecessary upset. Had we had such an opportunity this could have led to other options being considered, in particular particularly in terms of the current inadequate proposals for a Memorial Feature.

In the new spirit of openness which Mark Palios appears to be bringing to the Club, we hope that he will agree to meet us to enable such discussions to take place with the aim of finding a solution of which we all can be proud"

I would like to believe that Mark will agree to this. To this end we have written a letter politely requesting a meeting and it was delivered yesterday. I must admit Lurkinhead that I did not write in that we would not bring Dean along but we did offer, that discussions could and if necessary would, be conducted in the strictest confidence.

I really hope that Mark will not be troubled by the same sense of ego that PJ clearly has and will truely have the controlling interest he says he has. He is right to want to put Rovers in the centre of the community but this needs to embrace as much of that community as he can and not just narrow section. Ratepayers of Wirral are in danger of being short changed over this and they may be perfectly happy to see this, but in addition it should be a matter of Pride with which we remember our war dead and not a matter of shame. You cannot carry a community where there is a section who are in resentment (especially when this can be resolved through simple negotiation).
If Mark Palios does respond however, I am sure that it will not be until after he secures the Planning Consent next Thursday which he will inevitably get. Even ther there are things that can be resolved.

Who are BIOB? Good question. Well it consists first and foremost of a social grouping of a large number of individuals and if Reremnart were an Old Boy (which I suspect he isn't) I could put him in touch with the Secretary. Within that group there is a subgroup of people actively opposed to what is on the table. I am one of a small circle within that again that are trying to find options other than the glorified 'skateboard ramp' which is on 'offer' and which has unanamous disapproval. As I have said before we are a broad church and when and if we have options to discuss it will be necessary to seek a consensus amongst our members, but it will be with a recommendation from the small active group.
This matter also requires active participation and leadership from the Council which is sadly missing.

Score: 4

uncatom
11:17am Sat 16 Aug 14

Come on Lurkin, prominent mention, his name is mentioned once in the whole article, the majority is about what TRFC need and want, looks like the hub of the sporting community in Prenton is soon to become the hub of the sporting community in Leasowe, along with the other two hubs That already exist next door, what happened to the hub of the community on Woodchurch ?

Come on Lurkin, prominent mention, his name is mentioned once in the whole article, the majority is about what TRFC need and want, looks like the hub of the sporting community in Prenton is soon to become the hub of the sporting community in Leasowe, along with the other two hubs That already exist next door, what happened to the hub of the community on Woodchurch ?uncatom

Come on Lurkin, prominent mention, his name is mentioned once in the whole article, the majority is about what TRFC need and want, looks like the hub of the sporting community in Prenton is soon to become the hub of the sporting community in Leasowe, along with the other two hubs That already exist next door, what happened to the hub of the community on Woodchurch ?

Score: -4

Lurkinhead
7:58am Mon 18 Aug 14

uncatom wrote…

Morning Lurkin, true words indeed from yourself, "a shrewd businessman" and that is what its all about in a nutshell, forget the hub of the sporting community lets look at how much money can we make, as I have mentioned before there is no sentiment in business, the memories of those that paid the ultimate sacrifice are at the bottom of the shopping list, still lets see what crumbs will be thrown to seal the deal.

To be honest uncatom, I am encouraged, both as a Rovers fan and citizen of Birkenhead, that Palios is not here to make a quick buck, and as a well respected ex-player who has a strong affinity to our area, intends to drive through some real community benefits. That said, time will tell I guess, and I can well understand your cynicism, given your standpoint.

Funnily enough, when you observe "there is no sentiment in business, the memories of those that paid the ultimate sacrifice are at the bottom of the shopping list", my first thoughts were that you were talking about Dean Johnson, and his desperate attempts to position himself as "Mr First World War" in order to make a profit out of The Fallen.

Did you go to the Floral Pavilion on Saturday by the way? I believe they got a crowd in of over 100 - don't know if they will view that as disappointing though, given that it was the flagship performance in his home borough, with loads of free advertising from the Globe, and with guest appearances from well-known local "celebrities£ Billy Butler & Jimmy Corkhill from Brookie. I reckon you would have loved the interpretative dance!

[quote][p][bold]uncatom[/bold] wrote:
Morning Lurkin, true words indeed from yourself, "a shrewd businessman" and that is what its all about in a nutshell, forget the hub of the sporting community lets look at how much money can we make, as I have mentioned before there is no sentiment in business, the memories of those that paid the ultimate sacrifice are at the bottom of the shopping list, still lets see what crumbs will be thrown to seal the deal.[/p][/quote]To be honest uncatom, I am encouraged, both as a Rovers fan and citizen of Birkenhead, that Palios is not here to make a quick buck, and as a well respected ex-player who has a strong affinity to our area, intends to drive through some real community benefits. That said, time will tell I guess, and I can well understand your cynicism, given your standpoint.
Funnily enough, when you observe "there is no sentiment in business, the memories of those that paid the ultimate sacrifice are at the bottom of the shopping list", my first thoughts were that you were talking about Dean Johnson, and his desperate attempts to position himself as "Mr First World War" in order to make a profit out of The Fallen.
Did you go to the Floral Pavilion on Saturday by the way? I believe they got a crowd in of over 100 - don't know if they will view that as disappointing though, given that it was the flagship performance in his home borough, with loads of free advertising from the Globe, and with guest appearances from well-known local "celebrities£ Billy Butler & Jimmy Corkhill from Brookie. I reckon you would have loved the interpretative dance!Lurkinhead

uncatom wrote…

Morning Lurkin, true words indeed from yourself, "a shrewd businessman" and that is what its all about in a nutshell, forget the hub of the sporting community lets look at how much money can we make, as I have mentioned before there is no sentiment in business, the memories of those that paid the ultimate sacrifice are at the bottom of the shopping list, still lets see what crumbs will be thrown to seal the deal.

To be honest uncatom, I am encouraged, both as a Rovers fan and citizen of Birkenhead, that Palios is not here to make a quick buck, and as a well respected ex-player who has a strong affinity to our area, intends to drive through some real community benefits. That said, time will tell I guess, and I can well understand your cynicism, given your standpoint.

Funnily enough, when you observe "there is no sentiment in business, the memories of those that paid the ultimate sacrifice are at the bottom of the shopping list", my first thoughts were that you were talking about Dean Johnson, and his desperate attempts to position himself as "Mr First World War" in order to make a profit out of The Fallen.

Did you go to the Floral Pavilion on Saturday by the way? I believe they got a crowd in of over 100 - don't know if they will view that as disappointing though, given that it was the flagship performance in his home borough, with loads of free advertising from the Globe, and with guest appearances from well-known local "celebrities£ Billy Butler & Jimmy Corkhill from Brookie. I reckon you would have loved the interpretative dance!

Score: 1

Lurkinhead
8:44pm Sun 17 Aug 14

Just for those that may be interested, here's another review of Bullets & Daffodils:

"Firstly – there is some poetry in the piece (only a little of it by Owen), but very little war: not in any real sense. There is also no interpretation as such. We have a male voice-over, giving us basic information about Owen's life – nothing we don't know already from our schooldays – alternating with more narration from the impossibly young Chloe Torpey as Wilfred's mother. This is a baffling casting choice, based on"“her elegance and quintessential Englishness", as we are told in the programme. But age and suitability clearly have nothing to do with it; looking barely out of her teens, she plays Owen's mother with a constant tic of the head in an apparent nod to old age, cavorting around like a girl, her dark hair cascading down her shoulders, saying her lines with teary eyes and some sort of genuine emotion, but worlds away from anything like the bereaved mother of a grown man. The programme tells us she "took the West End by storm", just after telling us that this is her first stage role.

What we see are three women dressed in something between boy-scout and gnome costume, with scarves around their necks, half and half t-shirts and squiggly tights. Dean Johnson wears the same thing, but thankfully desists with the tights. We get some basic, very illustrative and unskilled mime, choreographed by Charlotte Roberts, passed off as dance or "body poetry" in the programme. Charlotte also appears on stage as "The Figure", executing amateurish, literal and entirely superfluous movements along with Chloe, who breaks character to join her in some school-girlish mime/dance moves. There is also "The Singer", Lindsay Field, who appears on various occasions and sings a few numbers – some Owen's words, others not.

The show itself consists of narrative interspersed with a number of songs, most composed by Dean Johnson, who also directs, designs and appears on stage intermittently with a guitar like a scout-leader version of Kenny Rogers (the programme tells us he is a homeless veteran, but we wouldn't guess this just by watching the show). He sings mostly his own songs, often right after Owens' poems. His singing is pleasant enough, which would be okay at a gig in a pub – but it all sounds the same and most of the lyrics and the meaning are lost on us.

The programme gives a prominent credit to David Gilmour for "additional music": this turns out to be a recording of "There's No Way Out of Here" played loudly in the background as the girls do one of their mime/dance numbers.

This piece just might work as a school concert or perhaps a community performance... but "major musical theatre" it is not."

Hmmm, not the universally acclaimed smash-hit that the man would have us believe then!

Just for those that may be interested, here's another review of Bullets & Daffodils:
"Firstly – there is some poetry in the piece (only a little of it by Owen), but very little war: not in any real sense. There is also no interpretation as such. We have a male voice-over, giving us basic information about Owen's life – nothing we don't know already from our schooldays – alternating with more narration from the impossibly young Chloe Torpey as Wilfred's mother. This is a baffling casting choice, based on"“her elegance and quintessential Englishness", as we are told in the programme. But age and suitability clearly have nothing to do with it; looking barely out of her teens, she plays Owen's mother with a constant tic of the head in an apparent nod to old age, cavorting around like a girl, her dark hair cascading down her shoulders, saying her lines with teary eyes and some sort of genuine emotion, but worlds away from anything like the bereaved mother of a grown man. The programme tells us she "took the West End by storm", just after telling us that this is her first stage role.
What we see are three women dressed in something between boy-scout and gnome costume, with scarves around their necks, half and half t-shirts and squiggly tights. Dean Johnson wears the same thing, but thankfully desists with the tights. We get some basic, very illustrative and unskilled mime, choreographed by Charlotte Roberts, passed off as dance or "body poetry" in the programme. Charlotte also appears on stage as "The Figure", executing amateurish, literal and entirely superfluous movements along with Chloe, who breaks character to join her in some school-girlish mime/dance moves. There is also "The Singer", Lindsay Field, who appears on various occasions and sings a few numbers – some Owen's words, others not.
The show itself consists of narrative interspersed with a number of songs, most composed by Dean Johnson, who also directs, designs and appears on stage intermittently with a guitar like a scout-leader version of Kenny Rogers (the programme tells us he is a homeless veteran, but we wouldn't guess this just by watching the show). He sings mostly his own songs, often right after Owens' poems. His singing is pleasant enough, which would be okay at a gig in a pub – but it all sounds the same and most of the lyrics and the meaning are lost on us.
The programme gives a prominent credit to David Gilmour for "additional music": this turns out to be a recording of "There's No Way Out of Here" played loudly in the background as the girls do one of their mime/dance numbers.
This piece just might work as a school concert or perhaps a community performance... but "major musical theatre" it is not."
http://onestoparts.c
om/review-bullets-an
d-daffodils-tristan-
bates-theatre
Hmmm, not the universally acclaimed smash-hit that the man would have us believe then!Lurkinhead

Just for those that may be interested, here's another review of Bullets & Daffodils:

"Firstly – there is some poetry in the piece (only a little of it by Owen), but very little war: not in any real sense. There is also no interpretation as such. We have a male voice-over, giving us basic information about Owen's life – nothing we don't know already from our schooldays – alternating with more narration from the impossibly young Chloe Torpey as Wilfred's mother. This is a baffling casting choice, based on"“her elegance and quintessential Englishness", as we are told in the programme. But age and suitability clearly have nothing to do with it; looking barely out of her teens, she plays Owen's mother with a constant tic of the head in an apparent nod to old age, cavorting around like a girl, her dark hair cascading down her shoulders, saying her lines with teary eyes and some sort of genuine emotion, but worlds away from anything like the bereaved mother of a grown man. The programme tells us she "took the West End by storm", just after telling us that this is her first stage role.

What we see are three women dressed in something between boy-scout and gnome costume, with scarves around their necks, half and half t-shirts and squiggly tights. Dean Johnson wears the same thing, but thankfully desists with the tights. We get some basic, very illustrative and unskilled mime, choreographed by Charlotte Roberts, passed off as dance or "body poetry" in the programme. Charlotte also appears on stage as "The Figure", executing amateurish, literal and entirely superfluous movements along with Chloe, who breaks character to join her in some school-girlish mime/dance moves. There is also "The Singer", Lindsay Field, who appears on various occasions and sings a few numbers – some Owen's words, others not.

The show itself consists of narrative interspersed with a number of songs, most composed by Dean Johnson, who also directs, designs and appears on stage intermittently with a guitar like a scout-leader version of Kenny Rogers (the programme tells us he is a homeless veteran, but we wouldn't guess this just by watching the show). He sings mostly his own songs, often right after Owens' poems. His singing is pleasant enough, which would be okay at a gig in a pub – but it all sounds the same and most of the lyrics and the meaning are lost on us.

The programme gives a prominent credit to David Gilmour for "additional music": this turns out to be a recording of "There's No Way Out of Here" played loudly in the background as the girls do one of their mime/dance numbers.

This piece just might work as a school concert or perhaps a community performance... but "major musical theatre" it is not."

Hmmm, not the universally acclaimed smash-hit that the man would have us believe then!

Score: 0

Lurkinhead
7:39pm Sun 17 Aug 14

Hi Pollexfen.

If, as now seems likely, the planning application will be finally agreed, I too hope that Mark Palios will engage with yourselves and any other interested parties as regards the scale and prominence of the memorial on the new housing development.

However, without wanting to put words in Mark Palios's mouth, he is clearly a shrewd businessman, who has thrived and prospered in the City, and I can only imagine that he would have little time for the "symbolic" antics (photoshpped war graves etc) of Dean Johnson.

Indeed, you yourself stated on 31/07/14: "If BIOB received any communications offering meaningful talks but which as a precondition excluded Dean Johnson I don’t believe that this would be a barrier."

Consequently, I must admit that I am surprised you state above: "I must admit Lurkinhead that I did not write in that we would not bring Dean along but we did offer, that discussions could and if necessary would, be conducted in the strictest confidence."

At the end of the day Pollexfen, your own strategy moving forwards is a matter for you, but for what it's worth, my advice would be to make it absolutely clear from the outset that Dean Johnson would be specifically excluded from any discussions, as his actions over a prolonged period have demonstrated he is not to be trusted, and that he is prone to stoop to any underhand stunt that he considers may provide him with some personal publicity. The man has become a toxic influence in this whole issue, and I would respectfully point out to you that any spirit of compromise and (hopefully) agreement between yourselves and the club's new owners would be much more likely if he withdrew. Now as we all know, the man's ego does not suggest he will withdraw, so perhaps you need to consider the bigger picture and take it out of his hands, as no party in any discussion could reasonable rely on this man keeping things in confidence?

Other than that, I wish you well - what will be will be, and I am confident that there must be a solution that all parties can sign up to, even if it would not be their first choice of outcome?

Uncatom, I don't know what happened re the previous Woodchurch proposal, and as a local resident, am personally very unhappy about that. However, as stated to Pollexfen above, I guess we all have to make compromises.

Hi Pollexfen.
If, as now seems likely, the planning application will be finally agreed, I too hope that Mark Palios will engage with yourselves and any other interested parties as regards the scale and prominence of the memorial on the new housing development.
However, without wanting to put words in Mark Palios's mouth, he is clearly a shrewd businessman, who has thrived and prospered in the City, and I can only imagine that he would have little time for the "symbolic" antics (photoshpped war graves etc) of Dean Johnson.
Indeed, you yourself stated on 31/07/14: "If BIOB received any communications offering meaningful talks but which as a precondition excluded Dean Johnson I don’t believe that this would be a barrier."
Consequently, I must admit that I am surprised you state above: "I must admit Lurkinhead that I did not write in that we would not bring Dean along but we did offer, that discussions could and if necessary would, be conducted in the strictest confidence."
At the end of the day Pollexfen, your own strategy moving forwards is a matter for you, but for what it's worth, my advice would be to make it absolutely clear from the outset that Dean Johnson would be specifically excluded from any discussions, as his actions over a prolonged period have demonstrated he is not to be trusted, and that he is prone to stoop to any underhand stunt that he considers may provide him with some personal publicity. The man has become a toxic influence in this whole issue, and I would respectfully point out to you that any spirit of compromise and (hopefully) agreement between yourselves and the club's new owners would be much more likely if he withdrew. Now as we all know, the man's ego does not suggest he will withdraw, so perhaps you need to consider the bigger picture and take it out of his hands, as no party in any discussion could reasonable rely on this man keeping things in confidence?
Other than that, I wish you well - what will be will be, and I am confident that there must be a solution that all parties can sign up to, even if it would not be their first choice of outcome?
Uncatom, I don't know what happened re the previous Woodchurch proposal, and as a local resident, am personally very unhappy about that. However, as stated to Pollexfen above, I guess we all have to make compromises.Lurkinhead

Hi Pollexfen.

If, as now seems likely, the planning application will be finally agreed, I too hope that Mark Palios will engage with yourselves and any other interested parties as regards the scale and prominence of the memorial on the new housing development.

However, without wanting to put words in Mark Palios's mouth, he is clearly a shrewd businessman, who has thrived and prospered in the City, and I can only imagine that he would have little time for the "symbolic" antics (photoshpped war graves etc) of Dean Johnson.

Indeed, you yourself stated on 31/07/14: "If BIOB received any communications offering meaningful talks but which as a precondition excluded Dean Johnson I don’t believe that this would be a barrier."

Consequently, I must admit that I am surprised you state above: "I must admit Lurkinhead that I did not write in that we would not bring Dean along but we did offer, that discussions could and if necessary would, be conducted in the strictest confidence."

At the end of the day Pollexfen, your own strategy moving forwards is a matter for you, but for what it's worth, my advice would be to make it absolutely clear from the outset that Dean Johnson would be specifically excluded from any discussions, as his actions over a prolonged period have demonstrated he is not to be trusted, and that he is prone to stoop to any underhand stunt that he considers may provide him with some personal publicity. The man has become a toxic influence in this whole issue, and I would respectfully point out to you that any spirit of compromise and (hopefully) agreement between yourselves and the club's new owners would be much more likely if he withdrew. Now as we all know, the man's ego does not suggest he will withdraw, so perhaps you need to consider the bigger picture and take it out of his hands, as no party in any discussion could reasonable rely on this man keeping things in confidence?

Other than that, I wish you well - what will be will be, and I am confident that there must be a solution that all parties can sign up to, even if it would not be their first choice of outcome?

Uncatom, I don't know what happened re the previous Woodchurch proposal, and as a local resident, am personally very unhappy about that. However, as stated to Pollexfen above, I guess we all have to make compromises.

Score: 0

uncatom
7:40am Mon 18 Aug 14

Morning Lurkin, true words indeed from yourself, "a shrewd businessman" and that is what its all about in a nutshell, forget the hub of the sporting community lets look at how much money can we make, as I have mentioned before there is no sentiment in business, the memories of those that paid the ultimate sacrifice are at the bottom of the shopping list, still lets see what crumbs will be thrown to seal the deal.

Morning Lurkin, true words indeed from yourself, "a shrewd businessman" and that is what its all about in a nutshell, forget the hub of the sporting community lets look at how much money can we make, as I have mentioned before there is no sentiment in business, the memories of those that paid the ultimate sacrifice are at the bottom of the shopping list, still lets see what crumbs will be thrown to seal the deal.uncatom

Morning Lurkin, true words indeed from yourself, "a shrewd businessman" and that is what its all about in a nutshell, forget the hub of the sporting community lets look at how much money can we make, as I have mentioned before there is no sentiment in business, the memories of those that paid the ultimate sacrifice are at the bottom of the shopping list, still lets see what crumbs will be thrown to seal the deal.

Score: -2

Positive thinker
11:06am Mon 18 Aug 14

Looks like the TRFC horse is dead,won't be long before the
ground is demolished and the whole site is developed.

Let it die and stop whipping it

Looks like the TRFC horse is dead,won't be long before the
ground is demolished and the whole site is developed.
Let it die and stop whipping itPositive thinker

Looks like the TRFC horse is dead,won't be long before the
ground is demolished and the whole site is developed.

Let it die and stop whipping it

Score: -3

Pollexfen
11:28am Mon 18 Aug 14

Just a couple of things.
First of all to say that I do not need to make any apologies for or on behalf of Dean Johnson who speaks for a sizeable body of people and with whom I share a lot of synergy. A request for a meeting is simple and straight forward enough without adding too much complexity and in any event I don’t believe he is the reason why the Club refuse to speak to us. If THEY came back and said so we would consider our position as a group (its not up for me alone to decide).
The memory of the Fallen is that which we all stand to lose from this outcome. You can’t put a price on that, but it may have unexpected consequences. Football supporters and players are superstitious people and I would have thought that it would have occurred to somebody that from the moment that the Club started showing such blatant disrespect to the dead, its fortunes have nose dived! Of course in practice, this is largely because of Peter Johnson’s disinterest in both subjects but it makes you think?
Mark Palios would appear to have sentimental reasons for stopping the Club falling out of the League and that would provide some hope to those who (previously at least) wanted all good things for the whole community of Wirral, but hang on ... is your suggestion not, that there is no place for sentiment in business? In his statement Mark Palios says, that the academy “MIGHT” be lost...(that’s a threat? and not “WILL be lost”?). He also points to £15m having been raised through transfer fees over an (unspecified) period. Where has all that gone? All you ever hear about is the £6m owed to Peter Johnson and that figure NEVER goes down. Finally the new academy arrangements imposed by the Premier League mean that talent identified through an academy MUST be sold on at modest rates so that £15m windfall will never be repeated. The deal is so poor that many Clubs have opted out of providing an academy altogether, so is it really going to be the money spinner that Mark Palios is suggesting it will?
Mark Palios is said to have a ‘controlling interest’ in the Club. Do you remember when we thought Frank Corfe owned the Club? (Oh no he didn’t...Oh yes he did...!). In addition to the relatively small sum of money required to provide Portacabin City at Leasowe, the Club will realise a PROFIT of over £2m from the sale of Ingleborough. As I said before, where will that go? The fans are already starting to demand that Palios puts his hand into his pocket to strengthen the poor squad that the Club has (despite Jeremy Butler’s assurances that the team would not be allowed to consist of (failed) journeymen and youngsters). It would be tempting to dip into that £2m+ wouldn’t it? But its hardly the self sustainable model he talks about is it (its the expediency model) and it will take years to deliver the developed players he talks about. What’s to say that the Frank Corfe example won’t happen again.
I am sorry if my frustration at the situation has led to a comment more of conjecture than of fact, which is what I started off with. We shall indeed see what we shall see, but this is not going to go away for Tranmere Rovers if they bring shame on the citizens of Wirral, just because they have flogged off the ground and think they have moved on.

Just a couple of things.
First of all to say that I do not need to make any apologies for or on behalf of Dean Johnson who speaks for a sizeable body of people and with whom I share a lot of synergy. A request for a meeting is simple and straight forward enough without adding too much complexity and in any event I don’t believe he is the reason why the Club refuse to speak to us. If THEY came back and said so we would consider our position as a group (its not up for me alone to decide).
The memory of the Fallen is that which we all stand to lose from this outcome. You can’t put a price on that, but it may have unexpected consequences. Football supporters and players are superstitious people and I would have thought that it would have occurred to somebody that from the moment that the Club started showing such blatant disrespect to the dead, its fortunes have nose dived! Of course in practice, this is largely because of Peter Johnson’s disinterest in both subjects but it makes you think?
Mark Palios would appear to have sentimental reasons for stopping the Club falling out of the League and that would provide some hope to those who (previously at least) wanted all good things for the whole community of Wirral, but hang on ... is your suggestion not, that there is no place for sentiment in business? In his statement Mark Palios says, that the academy “MIGHT” be lost...(that’s a threat? and not “WILL be lost”?). He also points to £15m having been raised through transfer fees over an (unspecified) period. Where has all that gone? All you ever hear about is the £6m owed to Peter Johnson and that figure NEVER goes down. Finally the new academy arrangements imposed by the Premier League mean that talent identified through an academy MUST be sold on at modest rates so that £15m windfall will never be repeated. The deal is so poor that many Clubs have opted out of providing an academy altogether, so is it really going to be the money spinner that Mark Palios is suggesting it will?
Mark Palios is said to have a ‘controlling interest’ in the Club. Do you remember when we thought Frank Corfe owned the Club? (Oh no he didn’t...Oh yes he did...!). In addition to the relatively small sum of money required to provide Portacabin City at Leasowe, the Club will realise a PROFIT of over £2m from the sale of Ingleborough. As I said before, where will that go? The fans are already starting to demand that Palios puts his hand into his pocket to strengthen the poor squad that the Club has (despite Jeremy Butler’s assurances that the team would not be allowed to consist of (failed) journeymen and youngsters). It would be tempting to dip into that £2m+ wouldn’t it? But its hardly the self sustainable model he talks about is it (its the expediency model) and it will take years to deliver the developed players he talks about. What’s to say that the Frank Corfe example won’t happen again.
I am sorry if my frustration at the situation has led to a comment more of conjecture than of fact, which is what I started off with. We shall indeed see what we shall see, but this is not going to go away for Tranmere Rovers if they bring shame on the citizens of Wirral, just because they have flogged off the ground and think they have moved on.Pollexfen

Just a couple of things.
First of all to say that I do not need to make any apologies for or on behalf of Dean Johnson who speaks for a sizeable body of people and with whom I share a lot of synergy. A request for a meeting is simple and straight forward enough without adding too much complexity and in any event I don’t believe he is the reason why the Club refuse to speak to us. If THEY came back and said so we would consider our position as a group (its not up for me alone to decide).
The memory of the Fallen is that which we all stand to lose from this outcome. You can’t put a price on that, but it may have unexpected consequences. Football supporters and players are superstitious people and I would have thought that it would have occurred to somebody that from the moment that the Club started showing such blatant disrespect to the dead, its fortunes have nose dived! Of course in practice, this is largely because of Peter Johnson’s disinterest in both subjects but it makes you think?
Mark Palios would appear to have sentimental reasons for stopping the Club falling out of the League and that would provide some hope to those who (previously at least) wanted all good things for the whole community of Wirral, but hang on ... is your suggestion not, that there is no place for sentiment in business? In his statement Mark Palios says, that the academy “MIGHT” be lost...(that’s a threat? and not “WILL be lost”?). He also points to £15m having been raised through transfer fees over an (unspecified) period. Where has all that gone? All you ever hear about is the £6m owed to Peter Johnson and that figure NEVER goes down. Finally the new academy arrangements imposed by the Premier League mean that talent identified through an academy MUST be sold on at modest rates so that £15m windfall will never be repeated. The deal is so poor that many Clubs have opted out of providing an academy altogether, so is it really going to be the money spinner that Mark Palios is suggesting it will?
Mark Palios is said to have a ‘controlling interest’ in the Club. Do you remember when we thought Frank Corfe owned the Club? (Oh no he didn’t...Oh yes he did...!). In addition to the relatively small sum of money required to provide Portacabin City at Leasowe, the Club will realise a PROFIT of over £2m from the sale of Ingleborough. As I said before, where will that go? The fans are already starting to demand that Palios puts his hand into his pocket to strengthen the poor squad that the Club has (despite Jeremy Butler’s assurances that the team would not be allowed to consist of (failed) journeymen and youngsters). It would be tempting to dip into that £2m+ wouldn’t it? But its hardly the self sustainable model he talks about is it (its the expediency model) and it will take years to deliver the developed players he talks about. What’s to say that the Frank Corfe example won’t happen again.
I am sorry if my frustration at the situation has led to a comment more of conjecture than of fact, which is what I started off with. We shall indeed see what we shall see, but this is not going to go away for Tranmere Rovers if they bring shame on the citizens of Wirral, just because they have flogged off the ground and think they have moved on.

Score: -4

Jack Boot
6:28pm Mon 18 Aug 14

Watch out TRFC, the BI Curse could take you down again......

Watch out TRFC, the BI Curse could take you down again......Jack Boot

Watch out TRFC, the BI Curse could take you down again......

Score: -4

freebase
8:08am Tue 19 Aug 14

Dialogue from polarised viewpoints is never got great to happen

How can it

Biob want the status quo

Trfc want to move forward

Dean wants to sell more than 150 tickets not the capacity sell out he's claiming

Dialogue from polarised viewpoints is never got great to happen
How can it
Biob want the status quo
Trfc want to move forward
Dean wants to sell more than 150 tickets not the capacity sell out he's claimingfreebase

Dialogue from polarised viewpoints is never got great to happen

How can it

Biob want the status quo

Trfc want to move forward

Dean wants to sell more than 150 tickets not the capacity sell out he's claiming

Score: 4

Pollexfen
11:44am Tue 19 Aug 14

From what I can see there is a lot that Dean Johnson says that appeals in different parts and to different extents to different people and I’m sorry but I don’t think that is worth exploring. He is in an individual and entitled to his opinion (much of which has been credited to him personally)
What I am interested in is trying to reach a consensus where the majority of BIOB agree. This will still leave some unhappy as it is unlikely to be the case that we can save the fields themselves.
As for my own thoughts, I did sort of apologise for my grumpiness in straying off the facts onto conjecture and if it offends you Lurkinhead then I am intend sorry, but surely you can forgive me for my frustration (maybe more so if you only knew the extent to which I have tried to broker some common sense and leadership over these last 2 years) After all you indulge in plenty of grumpiness over Dean Johnson yourself.
Please allow me to add, that my comments regarding bad luck were intended to be taken tongue in cheek. I have an open mind on religion but superstition is something else. Maybe we should banish it from football altogether (and that’s a joke too?)
Personally for what it is worth, I don’t think many people are really interested in issues that do not directly concern them. I never fail to be amazed (and maybe this is my rose tinted spectacles) just how many people I have held in high regard, have gone on to disappoint me. I would like to think that Mark Palios will not join that list but what do you think?
I know you like the truth so let me just appraise you that under a Freedom of Information request we now know that TRFC are intending to put £1.4m aside from the £5m sale of Ingleborough Road for the work at Leasowe. This means that if as originally projected, they pay £0.4m to the Government in tax and £1.6m to Wirral Council (for release of the Restrictive Covenants) they will be left with £1.6m pure profit to be spent on..... (oh sorry the majority of the Wirral public don’t care do they?)

From what I can see there is a lot that Dean Johnson says that appeals in different parts and to different extents to different people and I’m sorry but I don’t think that is worth exploring. He is in an individual and entitled to his opinion (much of which has been credited to him personally)
What I am interested in is trying to reach a consensus where the majority of BIOB agree. This will still leave some unhappy as it is unlikely to be the case that we can save the fields themselves.
As for my own thoughts, I did sort of apologise for my grumpiness in straying off the facts onto conjecture and if it offends you Lurkinhead then I am intend sorry, but surely you can forgive me for my frustration (maybe more so if you only knew the extent to which I have tried to broker some common sense and leadership over these last 2 years) After all you indulge in plenty of grumpiness over Dean Johnson yourself.
Please allow me to add, that my comments regarding bad luck were intended to be taken tongue in cheek. I have an open mind on religion but superstition is something else. Maybe we should banish it from football altogether (and that’s a joke too?)
Personally for what it is worth, I don’t think many people are really interested in issues that do not directly concern them. I never fail to be amazed (and maybe this is my rose tinted spectacles) just how many people I have held in high regard, have gone on to disappoint me. I would like to think that Mark Palios will not join that list but what do you think?
I know you like the truth so let me just appraise you that under a Freedom of Information request we now know that TRFC are intending to put £1.4m aside from the £5m sale of Ingleborough Road for the work at Leasowe. This means that if as originally projected, they pay £0.4m to the Government in tax and £1.6m to Wirral Council (for release of the Restrictive Covenants) they will be left with £1.6m pure profit to be spent on..... (oh sorry the majority of the Wirral public don’t care do they?)Pollexfen

From what I can see there is a lot that Dean Johnson says that appeals in different parts and to different extents to different people and I’m sorry but I don’t think that is worth exploring. He is in an individual and entitled to his opinion (much of which has been credited to him personally)
What I am interested in is trying to reach a consensus where the majority of BIOB agree. This will still leave some unhappy as it is unlikely to be the case that we can save the fields themselves.
As for my own thoughts, I did sort of apologise for my grumpiness in straying off the facts onto conjecture and if it offends you Lurkinhead then I am intend sorry, but surely you can forgive me for my frustration (maybe more so if you only knew the extent to which I have tried to broker some common sense and leadership over these last 2 years) After all you indulge in plenty of grumpiness over Dean Johnson yourself.
Please allow me to add, that my comments regarding bad luck were intended to be taken tongue in cheek. I have an open mind on religion but superstition is something else. Maybe we should banish it from football altogether (and that’s a joke too?)
Personally for what it is worth, I don’t think many people are really interested in issues that do not directly concern them. I never fail to be amazed (and maybe this is my rose tinted spectacles) just how many people I have held in high regard, have gone on to disappoint me. I would like to think that Mark Palios will not join that list but what do you think?
I know you like the truth so let me just appraise you that under a Freedom of Information request we now know that TRFC are intending to put £1.4m aside from the £5m sale of Ingleborough Road for the work at Leasowe. This means that if as originally projected, they pay £0.4m to the Government in tax and £1.6m to Wirral Council (for release of the Restrictive Covenants) they will be left with £1.6m pure profit to be spent on..... (oh sorry the majority of the Wirral public don’t care do they?)

Score: -1

freebase
1:49pm Tue 19 Aug 14

Er paying off their overdraft to allied Irish bank

Did you not study hard in tollemache road

Er paying off their overdraft to allied Irish bank
Did you not study hard in tollemache roadfreebase

Er paying off their overdraft to allied Irish bank

Did you not study hard in tollemache road

Score: 3

freebase
2:50pm Tue 19 Aug 14

Interesting name by the way pollexfen anything to do with the double barraled pollexfen -****'s

Interesting name by the way pollexfen anything to do with the double barraled pollexfen -****'sfreebase

Interesting name by the way pollexfen anything to do with the double barraled pollexfen -****'s

Score: -2

Jack Boot
5:36pm Tue 19 Aug 14

oooh whats in a name Freebase? Errr lets look at your diagnosois

' A method of inhaling drugs by holding a flame under a metal spoon filled with cocaine or any crushed pill.'

You've obviously been indulging if you think this is a good idea, check out the rats with their pockets full if this gets rubber stamped..

oooh whats in a name Freebase? Errr lets look at your diagnosois
' A method of inhaling drugs by holding a flame under a metal spoon filled with cocaine or any crushed pill.'
You've obviously been indulging if you think this is a good idea, check out the rats with their pockets full if this gets rubber stamped..Jack Boot

oooh whats in a name Freebase? Errr lets look at your diagnosois

' A method of inhaling drugs by holding a flame under a metal spoon filled with cocaine or any crushed pill.'

You've obviously been indulging if you think this is a good idea, check out the rats with their pockets full if this gets rubber stamped..

Score: -2

Lurkinhead
6:47pm Tue 19 Aug 14

Jack Boot wrote…

oooh whats in a name Freebase? Errr lets look at your diagnosois

' A method of inhaling drugs by holding a flame under a metal spoon filled with cocaine or any crushed pill.'

You've obviously been indulging if you think this is a good idea, check out the rats with their pockets full if this gets rubber stamped..

DearJack ****

I think you will find the correspondent "freebase" uses that title as a reference to our local attention seeker, when involved in a Facebook conversation with his chums as to their favourites smells, indicated that he loves the smell of freebase in the morning.

Personally, I don't give a monkeys, other than to observe that a man who sees himself as the guardian of all that is just apparently has a liking for cocaine, unless of course, he was just telling tall tales again in a sad attempt to portray a "rock star" image of himself.

Thanks for bringing the subject up though, and I hope you find my reply informative? ;-)

[quote][p][bold]Jack Boot[/bold] wrote:
oooh whats in a name Freebase? Errr lets look at your diagnosois
' A method of inhaling drugs by holding a flame under a metal spoon filled with cocaine or any crushed pill.'
You've obviously been indulging if you think this is a good idea, check out the rats with their pockets full if this gets rubber stamped..[/p][/quote]DearJack ****
I think you will find the correspondent "freebase" uses that title as a reference to our local attention seeker, when involved in a Facebook conversation with his chums as to their favourites smells, indicated that he loves the smell of freebase in the morning.
Personally, I don't give a monkeys, other than to observe that a man who sees himself as the guardian of all that is just apparently has a liking for cocaine, unless of course, he was just telling tall tales again in a sad attempt to portray a "rock star" image of himself.
Thanks for bringing the subject up though, and I hope you find my reply informative? ;-)Lurkinhead

Jack Boot wrote…

oooh whats in a name Freebase? Errr lets look at your diagnosois

' A method of inhaling drugs by holding a flame under a metal spoon filled with cocaine or any crushed pill.'

You've obviously been indulging if you think this is a good idea, check out the rats with their pockets full if this gets rubber stamped..

DearJack ****

I think you will find the correspondent "freebase" uses that title as a reference to our local attention seeker, when involved in a Facebook conversation with his chums as to their favourites smells, indicated that he loves the smell of freebase in the morning.

Personally, I don't give a monkeys, other than to observe that a man who sees himself as the guardian of all that is just apparently has a liking for cocaine, unless of course, he was just telling tall tales again in a sad attempt to portray a "rock star" image of himself.

Thanks for bringing the subject up though, and I hope you find my reply informative? ;-)

Score: 0

Jack Boot
7:18pm Tue 19 Aug 14

Ha! and I smoke red herrings

Ha! and I smoke red herringsJack Boot

Ha! and I smoke red herrings

Score: -1

Positive thinker
7:57pm Tue 19 Aug 14

Hurry up and get them built,housing shortage in Birkenhead

Hurry up and get them built,housing shortage in BirkenheadPositive thinker

Hurry up and get them built,housing shortage in Birkenhead

Score: 1

freebase
8:44pm Tue 19 Aug 14

My name is a play on the title of my favourite pub from yesteryear

The free library

Sadly the poxy globe now stands on the site

Jack be nimble you've been smoked out pardon the pun

Now talking about dodgy deals expecting a knock from the charity commission anytime soon

Maybe not you but your friends shareholders may be held accountable

My name is a play on the title of my favourite pub from yesteryear
The free library
Sadly the poxy globe now stands on the site
Jack be nimble you've been smoked out pardon the pun
Now talking about dodgy deals expecting a knock from the charity commission anytime soon
Maybe not you but your friends shareholders may be held accountablefreebase

My name is a play on the title of my favourite pub from yesteryear

The free library

Sadly the poxy globe now stands on the site

Jack be nimble you've been smoked out pardon the pun

Now talking about dodgy deals expecting a knock from the charity commission anytime soon

Maybe not you but your friends shareholders may be held accountable

Score: 3

Lurkinhead
8:31pm Tue 19 Aug 14

Hi again Pollexfen.

You will forgive me if I am a little sensitive re claims of "divine providence", however tongue in cheek, as this is broadly how the Ingleborough debate has been conducted by many of those in the opposing camp to myself over the last couple of years, and with respect, it really isn't acceptable.

Look, I have always acknowledged that there are two (or more) honourable perspectives in this debate, all of which are worthy of respect, whether I or you personally agree with them or not. However, those of us who wish the planning proposal to proceed, for what we consider legitimate reasons, have been subject to language such as "shame", disgrace", and perhaps most memorably "a wave of revulsion will engulf Wirral". Now Polloxfen, can I ask you, do you really believe that this form of emotive hyperbole is helpful, because the way I see it, I could equally use such language and turn the debate into a pointless slanging match, where we all disappear up our own bottoms in moral indignation? Wouldn't it be better if we just debated on the issues, without all these references to God, or moral high ground seeking?

What did offend me was Dean Johnson wishing ill to befall me and my family simply because we hold a different viewpoint to his. By the way, "A Pox Upon Thine House" was a nasty little poem that used to feature prominently in the top ten of his youtube playlist, until he deleted it after criticism.

So, whilst we are on Dean Johnson, can you clear up for me who this man is a spokesman for please? Is he an official spokesman for BIOB or any other group, or are his views merely personal? To be honest, I would feel better if they were personal, as I wouldn't like to think groups such as BIOB wished to curse me or my family.

Jackboot, if you doubt my explanation re "freebase", why don't you put the question to the man himself, who can be contacted via his website, and see if he is prepared to deny publicly that he said that? The thing is, you see, proof exists that he did indeed say that, be it flippantly or in truth.

My point is this: If any person wishes to attempt to seize the moral high ground and position themselves as the arbiter of all that is true and just, then they really need to be whiter than white themselves, and certainly refrain from making silly comments on the internet, which then become a matter of record for those watching.

Hi again Pollexfen.
You will forgive me if I am a little sensitive re claims of "divine providence", however tongue in cheek, as this is broadly how the Ingleborough debate has been conducted by many of those in the opposing camp to myself over the last couple of years, and with respect, it really isn't acceptable.
Look, I have always acknowledged that there are two (or more) honourable perspectives in this debate, all of which are worthy of respect, whether I or you personally agree with them or not. However, those of us who wish the planning proposal to proceed, for what we consider legitimate reasons, have been subject to language such as "shame", disgrace", and perhaps most memorably "a wave of revulsion will engulf Wirral". Now Polloxfen, can I ask you, do you really believe that this form of emotive hyperbole is helpful, because the way I see it, I could equally use such language and turn the debate into a pointless slanging match, where we all disappear up our own bottoms in moral indignation? Wouldn't it be better if we just debated on the issues, without all these references to God, or moral high ground seeking?
What did offend me was Dean Johnson wishing ill to befall me and my family simply because we hold a different viewpoint to his. By the way, "A Pox Upon Thine House" was a nasty little poem that used to feature prominently in the top ten of his youtube playlist, until he deleted it after criticism.
So, whilst we are on Dean Johnson, can you clear up for me who this man is a spokesman for please? Is he an official spokesman for BIOB or any other group, or are his views merely personal? To be honest, I would feel better if they were personal, as I wouldn't like to think groups such as BIOB wished to curse me or my family.
Jackboot, if you doubt my explanation re "freebase", why don't you put the question to the man himself, who can be contacted via his website, and see if he is prepared to deny publicly that he said that? The thing is, you see, proof exists that he did indeed say that, be it flippantly or in truth.
My point is this: If any person wishes to attempt to seize the moral high ground and position themselves as the arbiter of all that is true and just, then they really need to be whiter than white themselves, and certainly refrain from making silly comments on the internet, which then become a matter of record for those watching.Lurkinhead

Hi again Pollexfen.

You will forgive me if I am a little sensitive re claims of "divine providence", however tongue in cheek, as this is broadly how the Ingleborough debate has been conducted by many of those in the opposing camp to myself over the last couple of years, and with respect, it really isn't acceptable.

Look, I have always acknowledged that there are two (or more) honourable perspectives in this debate, all of which are worthy of respect, whether I or you personally agree with them or not. However, those of us who wish the planning proposal to proceed, for what we consider legitimate reasons, have been subject to language such as "shame", disgrace", and perhaps most memorably "a wave of revulsion will engulf Wirral". Now Polloxfen, can I ask you, do you really believe that this form of emotive hyperbole is helpful, because the way I see it, I could equally use such language and turn the debate into a pointless slanging match, where we all disappear up our own bottoms in moral indignation? Wouldn't it be better if we just debated on the issues, without all these references to God, or moral high ground seeking?

What did offend me was Dean Johnson wishing ill to befall me and my family simply because we hold a different viewpoint to his. By the way, "A Pox Upon Thine House" was a nasty little poem that used to feature prominently in the top ten of his youtube playlist, until he deleted it after criticism.

So, whilst we are on Dean Johnson, can you clear up for me who this man is a spokesman for please? Is he an official spokesman for BIOB or any other group, or are his views merely personal? To be honest, I would feel better if they were personal, as I wouldn't like to think groups such as BIOB wished to curse me or my family.

Jackboot, if you doubt my explanation re "freebase", why don't you put the question to the man himself, who can be contacted via his website, and see if he is prepared to deny publicly that he said that? The thing is, you see, proof exists that he did indeed say that, be it flippantly or in truth.

My point is this: If any person wishes to attempt to seize the moral high ground and position themselves as the arbiter of all that is true and just, then they really need to be whiter than white themselves, and certainly refrain from making silly comments on the internet, which then become a matter of record for those watching.

Score: 2

Pollexfen
3:49pm Wed 20 Aug 14

For Reremnart, I would refer you to one of my previous answers (with apologies for not fully comprehending you were an Old Boy)
If what you say is true Lurkinhead, there is nothing further to be done about a meeting because some cat calling has been going on. The fact is that I have tried to speak for what I believe a good many want but I can only be true to myself ultimately and that is why I am continuing to do what I can against the odds to bring some peace and quiet.
What does it matter what I think? I have asked myself that so many times and there is an answer which involves a long debate. Do I wish a pox on you? No! Do I think the majority of BIOB (or anybody for that matter) wish a pox on you? How should I know but I doubt it and certainly hope not. I hope that makes you feel better. Truely.
I say this because I believe it but also because sometimes we all need to hold our hand up and say sorry sometimes so if that would make a difference to the situation, I'll stand first in line and take the kicking. Then having got that out of the way let's sit down and talk it through.
As regards the comment about my pseudonim, I don't understand it and am not interested in having it explained to me. I took it from the Roll of Honour and use it as a mark of respect for someone who was much more qualified and talented than than me but died before his time.

For Reremnart, I would refer you to one of my previous answers (with apologies for not fully comprehending you were an Old Boy)
If what you say is true Lurkinhead, there is nothing further to be done about a meeting because some cat calling has been going on. The fact is that I have tried to speak for what I believe a good many want but I can only be true to myself ultimately and that is why I am continuing to do what I can against the odds to bring some peace and quiet.
What does it matter what I think? I have asked myself that so many times and there is an answer which involves a long debate. Do I wish a pox on you? No! Do I think the majority of BIOB (or anybody for that matter) wish a pox on you? How should I know but I doubt it and certainly hope not. I hope that makes you feel better. Truely.
I say this because I believe it but also because sometimes we all need to hold our hand up and say sorry sometimes so if that would make a difference to the situation, I'll stand first in line and take the kicking. Then having got that out of the way let's sit down and talk it through.
As regards the comment about my pseudonim, I don't understand it and am not interested in having it explained to me. I took it from the Roll of Honour and use it as a mark of respect for someone who was much more qualified and talented than than me but died before his time.Pollexfen

For Reremnart, I would refer you to one of my previous answers (with apologies for not fully comprehending you were an Old Boy)
If what you say is true Lurkinhead, there is nothing further to be done about a meeting because some cat calling has been going on. The fact is that I have tried to speak for what I believe a good many want but I can only be true to myself ultimately and that is why I am continuing to do what I can against the odds to bring some peace and quiet.
What does it matter what I think? I have asked myself that so many times and there is an answer which involves a long debate. Do I wish a pox on you? No! Do I think the majority of BIOB (or anybody for that matter) wish a pox on you? How should I know but I doubt it and certainly hope not. I hope that makes you feel better. Truely.
I say this because I believe it but also because sometimes we all need to hold our hand up and say sorry sometimes so if that would make a difference to the situation, I'll stand first in line and take the kicking. Then having got that out of the way let's sit down and talk it through.
As regards the comment about my pseudonim, I don't understand it and am not interested in having it explained to me. I took it from the Roll of Honour and use it as a mark of respect for someone who was much more qualified and talented than than me but died before his time.

Score: -1

eviltwin
12:34pm Wed 20 Aug 14

uncatom wrote…

Reremnart wrote…

Oh look Dean Johnson again qand not for the first time supposedly representing the Birkenhead Institute Old Boys (I, myself, am an ex pupil of that school and I can assure you that he most definitely doesn`t represent me). I have asked several times who exactly these "old boysI would presume the alternative is to build a new training ground at Ingleborough, with all the increased traffic that would bring. There has been a great deal of consultation regarding the move. The Ingleborough 'memorial' is in fact a derelict shed and the new developers have promised to create a much more fitting memorial for the fallen. How is that bad?

DJ has his own agenda and seems happier to make vague claims about where Wilfred Owen may have visited in order to promote his own stage show (which is not for charitable purposes but to line his own pocket) than to honourably keep his memory alive. Can people not see that a thriving local football club is good for the community as a whole?

[quote][p][bold]uncatom[/bold] wrote:
[quote][p][bold]Reremnart[/bold] wrote:
Oh look Dean Johnson again qand not for the first time supposedly representing the Birkenhead Institute Old Boys (I, myself, am an ex pupil of that school and I can assure you that he most definitely doesn`t represent me). I have asked several times who exactly these "old boysI would presume the alternative is to build a new training ground at Ingleborough, with all the increased traffic that would bring. There has been a great deal of consultation regarding the move. The Ingleborough 'memorial' is in fact a derelict shed and the new developers have promised to create a much more fitting memorial for the fallen. How is that bad?
DJ has his own agenda and seems happier to make vague claims about where Wilfred Owen may have visited in order to promote his own stage show (which is not for charitable purposes but to line his own pocket) than to honourably keep his memory alive. Can people not see that a thriving local football club is good for the community as a whole?eviltwin

uncatom wrote…

Reremnart wrote…

Oh look Dean Johnson again qand not for the first time supposedly representing the Birkenhead Institute Old Boys (I, myself, am an ex pupil of that school and I can assure you that he most definitely doesn`t represent me). I have asked several times who exactly these "old boysI would presume the alternative is to build a new training ground at Ingleborough, with all the increased traffic that would bring. There has been a great deal of consultation regarding the move. The Ingleborough 'memorial' is in fact a derelict shed and the new developers have promised to create a much more fitting memorial for the fallen. How is that bad?

DJ has his own agenda and seems happier to make vague claims about where Wilfred Owen may have visited in order to promote his own stage show (which is not for charitable purposes but to line his own pocket) than to honourably keep his memory alive. Can people not see that a thriving local football club is good for the community as a whole?

Score: 0

Lurkinhead
4:26pm Wed 20 Aug 14

Quote Pollexfen:

"First of all to say that I do not need to make any apologies for or on behalf of Dean Johnson who speaks for a sizeable body of people and with whom I share a lot of synergy."

Hi again Pollexfen,

I'm still a bit confused about your earlier statement (above).

As previously asked, can you clear up for me who Dean Johnson is a spokesman for please? Is he an official spokesman for BIOB or any other group, or are his views merely personal?

The thing is, in view of his his curses etc, I think it is important to identify the "sizeable body of people" for whom he speaks, and clarify if all his comments are officially representative of their views, or whether some of his comments are merely his own, and if so, how can these be told apart?

Quote Pollexfen:
"First of all to say that I do not need to make any apologies for or on behalf of Dean Johnson who speaks for a sizeable body of people and with whom I share a lot of synergy."
Hi again Pollexfen,
I'm still a bit confused about your earlier statement (above).
As previously asked, can you clear up for me who Dean Johnson is a spokesman for please? Is he an official spokesman for BIOB or any other group, or are his views merely personal?
The thing is, in view of his his curses etc, I think it is important to identify the "sizeable body of people" for whom he speaks, and clarify if all his comments are officially representative of their views, or whether some of his comments are merely his own, and if so, how can these be told apart?Lurkinhead

Quote Pollexfen:

"First of all to say that I do not need to make any apologies for or on behalf of Dean Johnson who speaks for a sizeable body of people and with whom I share a lot of synergy."

Hi again Pollexfen,

I'm still a bit confused about your earlier statement (above).

As previously asked, can you clear up for me who Dean Johnson is a spokesman for please? Is he an official spokesman for BIOB or any other group, or are his views merely personal?

The thing is, in view of his his curses etc, I think it is important to identify the "sizeable body of people" for whom he speaks, and clarify if all his comments are officially representative of their views, or whether some of his comments are merely his own, and if so, how can these be told apart?

Score: 1

freebase
12:12pm Thu 21 Aug 14

Birkenhead Institute Whetstone Lane - demolished, site now a primary school and old peoples sheltered housing.

Birkenhead Institute Tollemache Road - demolished, site now a housing estate. Road named after former pupil, not that he ever wentto school at that site.

Birkenhead Institute Ingleborough Road school field - the last site associated with the school, planning permission for a housing estate.

So, three sites around the town, two of which have disappeared, the last which probably will. Unfortunately for Tranmere, there's an emotive tag on the last site, which they are hammering and hammering, in that is suppossed to be a memorial field for those that fell during the Great War.

Now, have you noticed that at no stage at all during these preceedings, have those that fell during the 2nd World War ever been considered or mentioned. The Old Boys don't seem to be bothered about them, they've never mentioned, and until prompted, 'pollexfen' was the first to actually name them, and in doing so, didn't name the fabled 88, it was 85 with one possible extra.

They still harp on about the 88 Poplar trees, ignoring the fact that neither are the trees round the field Poplars, there aren't 88 of them either. (The trees are around 30/40 years old, and some have been badly planted which would indicate that the fabled Poplars were changed while that field was still owned by BI!)

There appears to be no 'absolute' proof outside of what the school have said, that this field was ever a war memorial. Those that campaign agasint Tranmere have yet to proof, without question, that it is. Yet, at this time, it's an emotive subject. And it gives them an angle. They tell us that it'll bring shame to the Wirral, and you'd think that they've such a ground sweel of support. But when Johnson held a remembrance service there a couple of years back, you'd expect a good couple of hundred old boys to turn up wouldn't you, as we're told it plays such a pivotal role in their lives and school years. I make that just 12, including the photographer! http://www.wilfredow
enstory.com/imag...m
embrance2.jpg

One of their other points is that the arch over the gates has been removed, and no one knows where to. Apparently, the club have said it was in a dangerous condition, and it needed to be removed. You'd think this arch would state "Ingleborough Road Memorial Field" or something along those lines, but the reality, especially in later years, was that it just said "Birkenhead Institute" https://www.flickr.c
om/photos/birken...t
e/4855831523/ (There is also this, but it appears to be a drawing rather than a photograph, but where there further bits to the archway? https://www.flickr.c
om/photos/birken...t
e/4856454342/)

My gut instinct is that their campaign is given an emotive angle, but it's really about losing the last bit of their school, and nothing more.

Birkenhead Institute Whetstone Lane - demolished, site now a primary school and old peoples sheltered housing.
Birkenhead Institute Tollemache Road - demolished, site now a housing estate. Road named after former pupil, not that he ever wentto school at that site.
Birkenhead Institute Ingleborough Road school field - the last site associated with the school, planning permission for a housing estate.
So, three sites around the town, two of which have disappeared, the last which probably will. Unfortunately for Tranmere, there's an emotive tag on the last site, which they are hammering and hammering, in that is suppossed to be a memorial field for those that fell during the Great War.
Now, have you noticed that at no stage at all during these preceedings, have those that fell during the 2nd World War ever been considered or mentioned. The Old Boys don't seem to be bothered about them, they've never mentioned, and until prompted, 'pollexfen' was the first to actually name them, and in doing so, didn't name the fabled 88, it was 85 with one possible extra.
They still harp on about the 88 Poplar trees, ignoring the fact that neither are the trees round the field Poplars, there aren't 88 of them either. (The trees are around 30/40 years old, and some have been badly planted which would indicate that the fabled Poplars were changed while that field was still owned by BI!)
There appears to be no 'absolute' proof outside of what the school have said, that this field was ever a war memorial. Those that campaign agasint Tranmere have yet to proof, without question, that it is. Yet, at this time, it's an emotive subject. And it gives them an angle. They tell us that it'll bring shame to the Wirral, and you'd think that they've such a ground sweel of support. But when Johnson held a remembrance service there a couple of years back, you'd expect a good couple of hundred old boys to turn up wouldn't you, as we're told it plays such a pivotal role in their lives and school years. I make that just 12, including the photographer! http://www.wilfredow
enstory.com/imag...m
embrance2.jpg
One of their other points is that the arch over the gates has been removed, and no one knows where to. Apparently, the club have said it was in a dangerous condition, and it needed to be removed. You'd think this arch would state "Ingleborough Road Memorial Field" or something along those lines, but the reality, especially in later years, was that it just said "Birkenhead Institute" https://www.flickr.c
om/photos/birken...t
e/4855831523/ (There is also this, but it appears to be a drawing rather than a photograph, but where there further bits to the archway? https://www.flickr.c
om/photos/birken...t
e/4856454342/)
My gut instinct is that their campaign is given an emotive angle, but it's really about losing the last bit of their school, and nothing more.freebase

Birkenhead Institute Whetstone Lane - demolished, site now a primary school and old peoples sheltered housing.

Birkenhead Institute Tollemache Road - demolished, site now a housing estate. Road named after former pupil, not that he ever wentto school at that site.

Birkenhead Institute Ingleborough Road school field - the last site associated with the school, planning permission for a housing estate.

So, three sites around the town, two of which have disappeared, the last which probably will. Unfortunately for Tranmere, there's an emotive tag on the last site, which they are hammering and hammering, in that is suppossed to be a memorial field for those that fell during the Great War.

Now, have you noticed that at no stage at all during these preceedings, have those that fell during the 2nd World War ever been considered or mentioned. The Old Boys don't seem to be bothered about them, they've never mentioned, and until prompted, 'pollexfen' was the first to actually name them, and in doing so, didn't name the fabled 88, it was 85 with one possible extra.

They still harp on about the 88 Poplar trees, ignoring the fact that neither are the trees round the field Poplars, there aren't 88 of them either. (The trees are around 30/40 years old, and some have been badly planted which would indicate that the fabled Poplars were changed while that field was still owned by BI!)

There appears to be no 'absolute' proof outside of what the school have said, that this field was ever a war memorial. Those that campaign agasint Tranmere have yet to proof, without question, that it is. Yet, at this time, it's an emotive subject. And it gives them an angle. They tell us that it'll bring shame to the Wirral, and you'd think that they've such a ground sweel of support. But when Johnson held a remembrance service there a couple of years back, you'd expect a good couple of hundred old boys to turn up wouldn't you, as we're told it plays such a pivotal role in their lives and school years. I make that just 12, including the photographer! http://www.wilfredow
enstory.com/imag...m
embrance2.jpg

One of their other points is that the arch over the gates has been removed, and no one knows where to. Apparently, the club have said it was in a dangerous condition, and it needed to be removed. You'd think this arch would state "Ingleborough Road Memorial Field" or something along those lines, but the reality, especially in later years, was that it just said "Birkenhead Institute" https://www.flickr.c
om/photos/birken...t
e/4855831523/ (There is also this, but it appears to be a drawing rather than a photograph, but where there further bits to the archway? https://www.flickr.c
om/photos/birken...t
e/4856454342/)

My gut instinct is that their campaign is given an emotive angle, but it's really about losing the last bit of their school, and nothing more.

Ipsoregulated

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