I haven't been through this entire thread yet. This is probably discussed, but I am about 5'9.5" and I wear 29 length pants.
I have an opportunity to test ride a small Krampus. It has 175mm crank arms and a set back set post.
Am I too tall for a small?

I'm 5'8" with 30ish pants inseam. Medium was perfect, thought it would have been too big, but it works.

I haven't been through this entire thread yet. This is probably discussed, but I am about 5'9.5" and I wear 29 length pants.
I have an opportunity to test ride a small Krampus. It has 175mm crank arms and a set back set post.
Am I too tall for a small?

I'm 5'7" 33.5 inch cycling inseam. (So, 35 inch pant inseam. I'm female, btw, so different proportions from most Krampus riders since it's more a guy's bike). I have a small Surly Krampus. Should have gotten the medium, though the small works with a 100 cm, 17 degree stem angled up.

The small Krampus actually comes with a 60 cm stem. Putting such a long stem on it, to me, means I should have gone up a size. But I built it from a frame set, and am more accustomed to road bike sizing.

Besides, the small only has one set of water bottle bosses.

Caveat. I apparently have short femurs, ride a zero-offset seat post on all my bikes, this brings my saddle about 4 cm forward. Which means I can ride a larger bike than expected for my torso length. Even so, I checked into this thoroughly before getting my frame set, too. I'd say size medium would be better. Your torso is more than 6 inches longer than mine, I guess. (And based on that, I would try to find a large surly to test, too).

Wow, I know women have different proportions than men but I'm 6'1" and have a 32" inseam measured at 34" for cycling.
Isn't yours backwards? Your cycling inseam should be longer than your pants inseam.

Wow, I know women have different proportions than men but I'm 6'1" and have a 32" inseam measured at 34" for cycling.
Isn't yours backwards? Your cycling inseam should be longer than your pants inseam.

Pants wih a 35 inch inseam fit me well wearing shoes. My PBM IS 33.5. Most women's pants are 32 inches, and they make me look like Steve URKLE.

Very petite women sometimes have insanely long legs in proportion to their heights. Like someone who is 5'2 or 5'3" May have a 30" measurement. I think after a certain height, the torso is more often longer in proportion. 40 inch legs would be problematic. (I'm picturing Joint problems that probably wouldn't happen with someone smaller. In fact, my sister is 5 inches taller than me, so six feet, but her legs are not anywhere near 38.5 inches long).

@croatiansensation, that's good advice. I had someone else set up my tires tubeless. Actually two different someones. The front tire kept air for a few months and then failed. The rear tire failed, twice, overnight. In the case of the front, and perhaps the rear as well, probably more sealant would have been better.

Surly Krampus

Thanks Hugo guys for the help. I've got a wheelset coming and will attempt to setup the cheapo Innovas on them. Stan has never failed me yet - I may need more sealant for these things - but for 35 bucks it is worth a try.

Do you know a good shop online or I can order a Bontrager Chupacabra because here in France these tires are unfortunately unavailable !
I search also a good headset to mount on my Krampus, what model and what brand (cane creek, Hope, etc...) do you recommend ?

Do you know a good shop online or I can order a Bontrager Chupacabra because here in France these tires are unfortunately unavailable !
I search also a good headset to mount on my Krampus, what model and what brand (cane creek, Hope, etc...) do you recommend ?
Thank you !!

I don't know about the tyres but my Krampus headset is Chris King InSet i1 beacause of the colour. Little bit expensive but no broblems so far (about for a half year hard driving).

Trek has a French site. Not sure if you can get the tires, but worth a try.

I live in Switzerland and I've checked here with one shop and a buddy checked in Germany as well. It seems that the whole of Trek Europe has no Chupacabras in the program for 2015. They told both shops that it might happen for 2016 but we would have to wait and see. It sounds like we'll have better luck getting the new Panaracer tires instead. There's also a new Geax/Vittoria that I'm attempting to get my hands on. If I find out anything, I'll pass on the info.

I haven't been through this entire thread yet. This is probably discussed, but I am about 5'9.5" and I wear 29 length pants.
I have an opportunity to test ride a small Krampus. It has 175mm crank arms and a set back set post.
Am I too tall for a small?

I am 5' 9" with about a 30.5 inseam. I felt fine on a medium, but don't have much stand over clearance. I wondered a little about a small fitting me. I know I had an absolute blast on the medium! I haven't come across a small to try. At 260 lbs, I may be better off with a medium.

I am 5' 9" with about a 30.5 inseam. I felt fine on a medium, but don't have much stand over clearance. I wondered a little about a small fitting me. I know I had an absolute blast on the medium! I haven't come across a small to try. At 260 lbs, I may be better off with a medium.

I am 175cm (apparently 5' 8 and 5/6") and riding a small Krampus OPS with a 55mm stem and no setback. Fits me fine, a bit compact maybe, but makes it nice and playfull.

Surly Krampus

Awesome ride, the enve fork rides like a dream - removed some of the sluggish steering. Stiff, stiff, stiff though, but not jarring. Tracks straight and true when braking hard and going fast into corners. Complements the beefy tires when gobbling up trail chatter. Just wished that I had more traction up front. Seems like the lower A-C did not throw off the geometry, made it a playful XC bike with monster tires. I also need to compensate for the lighter front-end.

I live in Switzerland and I've checked here with one shop and a buddy checked in Germany as well. It seems that the whole of Trek Europe has no Chupacabras in the program for 2015. They told both shops that it might happen for 2016 but we would have to wait and see. It sounds like we'll have better luck getting the new Panaracer tires instead. There's also a new Geax/Vittoria that I'm attempting to get my hands on. If I find out anything, I'll pass on the info.

Awesome ride, the enve fork rides like a dream - removed some of the sluggish steering. Stiff, stiff, stiff though, but not jarring. Tracks straight and true when braking hard and going fast into corners. Complements the beefy tires when gobbling up trail chatter. Just wished that I had more traction up front. Seems like the lower A-C did not throw off the geometry, made it a playful XC bike with monster tires. I also need to compensate for the lighter front-end.

Your bike looks great! I've been thinking hard about getting the Enve fork for mine. Are you running it with the 44mm of 52mm offset? I plugged some numbers into a trail calculator and came out with the trail only being 1mm smaller for the Enve set to 44mm. The head angle should steepen by about 0.5 degrees and the wheelbase should shorten by about 7mm.

Your bike looks great! I've been thinking hard about getting the Enve fork for mine. Are you running it with the 44mm of 52mm offset? I plugged some numbers into a trail calculator and came out with the trail only being 1mm smaller for the Enve set to 44mm. The head angle should steepen by about 0.5 degrees and the wheelbase should shorten by about 7mm.

Thanks! It was actually an impulse buy - I have been looking at the Whisky No. 9 fork for the longest time but no timetable of availability in my corner of the world. I was about to go for the Niner RDO fork but the loud graphics did not go well with the flat / matte finish of the bike. Then when I paid a visit to this LBS to rebuild my Krampus wheels, what seemingly sounds like an innocent question "can I have a look at your enve 29er forks" led to "you need to put this in my bike!" and viola! No regrets so far - I'd say go for it.

I'm running the stock 52mm offset, figured that it would be closer in geometry with the stock build in the sense that the shorter A-C compensates for the longer offset. Like you, I usually put in numbers to determine geometry changes when replacing parts, but since this was an impulse purchase no chance of doing that. I'm curious of trying the 44mm offset though, I'm assuming it would make the geometry more XC-ish? We'll see.

Surly Krampus

That Enve sure is slick and purty...

I'm a huge fan of my Carver 470 fork. I'm honestly not sure about the offset, but the 13mm shorter A:C really makes the Krampus even more fun... In fact, so many of my friends have raved about the handling and ride characteristics, that someone here in ATX is building a clone of my bike. Just saw the Doppleganger at Cycle Progression on Friday.

Surly Krampus

I have a large framed Krampus and want to buy a revelate Tangle bag. I'm wondering what size bag to buy; medium or large. If anyone knows what size fits the large frame, I'd appreciate the info. Thanks

I have a large framed Krampus and want to buy a revelate Tangle bag. I'm wondering what size bag to buy; medium or large. If anyone knows what size fits the large frame, I'd appreciate the info. Thanks

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They are 17", 19.5", and 21" for small, medium, and large. So measure the inside distance of your top tube and get the one that fits.

I have the size small for my CAADX with a 53.5 tt. Fit is perfect, but tight. Seems like the underside of the tt was 18 inches, but I'll get back to you. I believe my size small Krampus was an inch shorter than the CAADX. Might not work on the Small Krampu; mostly because th top of the triangle by the head tube is so tight.

i just measures my small tangle bag, the top portion is exactly 17 inches, but the ends make it more like 18 inches altogether. So figure the bags are about an inch longer than stated. The underside of the tt measures about 18 .75 inches. Perfect fit.

I have a large framed Krampus and want to buy a revelate Tangle bag. I'm wondering what size bag to buy; medium or large. If anyone knows what size fits the large frame, I'd appreciate the info. Thanks

Must I choose my tires for my Krampus and I hesitate between the 3 models available here in France it is , Maxxis Chronicle, Vee Rubber Trax Fatty or Surly Knard 120tpi (27 tpi is much too heavy for my taste..), depending on your experience for dry, slightly sandy grounds and a tire that remains quite "wheelchair" that would you recommend?

Sizing question: I'm 6'1" x 34 inseam and ride technical east coast trails. Do I want the large or extra large? I'm currently thinking large so that I can eventually run a suspension fork without banging me nuts.

Sizing question: I'm 6'1" x 34 inseam and ride technical east coast trails. Do I want the large or extra large? I'm currently thinking large so that I can eventually run a suspension fork without banging me nuts.

What other mountain bikes have you owned recently and what size(s) were they? Compare reach and effective top tube lengths between the bikes you are comfortable on and the L and XL Krampus dimensions. The standover height is over an inch higher for the XL so if you don't have real long legs you might be hurting your nuts with a longer axle to crown dimension.

Sizing question: I'm 6'1" x 34 inseam and ride technical east coast trails. Do I want the large or extra large? I'm currently thinking large so that I can eventually run a suspension fork without banging me nuts.

I'm 6'2 with a 34" inseam and ride the same terrain. I've been happy with the Large. Even happier since I put the Float 34 on it!

Thanks Mpolka and seabass. I went with the large because ETT was closer to my monocog flight and I want something I can huck around on. Picked it up this weekend. Hit it with some frame saver and might make it ghetto tubeless before it's first ride. What's the trick to get rear wheels off with these new fangled derailurs? ?

I turned the clutch off and pulled the skewer. Came out pretty easy after that. I eventually went SS on mine so it's easier now.
Ghetto setup is easy. I just put in my ribbon of choice, used one wrap of gorilla tape, and then used a 26" split tube. Some use a 24" tube. I had 26"s on hand so I went with those. Make sure you get tubes with removable cores. Makes it much easier to seal the bead with the compressor as you can get a lot more air in. Then I used 3 oz Stans and trimmed the skirt with a razor.

Wich casing for my Chronicles to come?
I use to ride hard, in muddy or rocky trail, with my 27tpi Knards in tubeless, but I want a more agressive tire... 120tpi Exo? Is it ok with 10psi like with my Knards? Front or rear?

I turned the clutch off and pulled the skewer. Came out pretty easy after that. I eventually went SS on mine so it's easier now.
Ghetto setup is easy. I just put in my ribbon of choice, used one wrap of gorilla tape, and then used a 26" split tube. Some use a 24" tube. I had 26"s on hand so I went with those. Make sure you get tubes with removable cores. Makes it much easier to seal the bead with the compressor as you can get a lot more air in. Then I used 3 oz Stans and trimmed the skirt with a razor.

fwiw, no need to use a split tube to run rabbit holes tubeless.

i used one wrap of gorilla wide tape and the knard seated with a floor pump. going strong for over a year.

Pants wih a 35 inch inseam fit me well wearing shoes. My PBM IS 33.5. Most women's pants are 32 inches, and they make me look like Steve URKLE.

Very petite women sometimes have insanely long legs in proportion to their heights. Like someone who is 5'2 or 5'3" May have a 30" measurement. I think after a certain height, the torso is more often longer in proportion. 40 inch legs would be problematic. (I'm picturing Joint problems that probably wouldn't happen with someone smaller. In fact, my sister is 5 inches taller than me, so six feet, but her legs are not anywhere near 38.5 inches long).

Okay, at the the risk of sounding creepy here, I need to see a picture of you beside your small Krampus to be able to put this in perspective. I'm the same height as you, but your legs are 6" longer than mine. I also ride a small, and have a 300mm seat post that is nearly to the max height. By my math, you would need a 450mm seat post, right?

Must I choose my tires for my Krampus and I hesitate between the 3 models available here in France it is , Maxxis Chronicle, Vee Rubber Trax Fatty or Surly Knard 120tpi (27 tpi is much too heavy for my taste..), depending on your experience for dry, slightly sandy grounds and a tire that remains quite "wheelchair" that would you recommend?

I will warn that my experience is limited to a few hours riding, but the Krampus with Knards is very good in very loose dirt and egg sized rocks, also at smoothing out small bumps. I rode at 10 psi and was amazed. They are excellent all around tires, although I've heard not so good in mud. They are not at all bad on pavement, either.

I got to ride some Maxxis Chronicles 29+ on a Chumba Ursa demo bike on sandy, hilly, slightly wet trails, only 5-6 miles though. They were fantastic and I felt like I could plow over anything. I slipped once, that was in 3 in. of pure loose sand. I tried to ride these same trails on my 29er with 2" tires and gave up after a few hundred feet! I came away very impressed with the Chronicles and the 29+ format. I don't have any experience in riding "true" fat bikes in these same conditions, but the performance was very impressive!

i have a question re. frame size. i sort of hastily bought my krampus, a large, because it was a really good deal and i was bikeless at the time (read: desperate). i have been riding it for a while and it has been fine, but definitely on the large side for me. i am wondering what size you guys ride compared to your height, reach, inseam, etc and how you like the fits. im 5'9" on a good day with pretty long legs for my height. my main concerns are standover and wheelbase.
here is a pic of my current set up for reference:

Okay, at the the risk of sounding creepy here, I need to see a picture of you beside your small Krampus to be able to put this in perspective. I'm the same height as you, but your legs are 6" longer than mine. I also ride a small, and have a 300mm seat post that is nearly to the max height. By my math, you would need a 450mm seat post, right?

Center of crank to top of saddle is 73 cm, 350 is fine, 400 would probably be a bit better.

Your inseam is only 27.5 inches at 5'7"? My actual inseam is 33.5, not 35. Pants with a 35 inch inseam fit well. Though it depends on the brand, i think here is a lot of variability in how they measure.

I know some mountain bikers raise the saddle quite a bit higher. Mine is set to the same degree of flexation as my road bikes. I'm new to mb, so may do things a little differently.

the reach isn't too bad. ive even got a setpack post on there. i could put the orginal bars on with a shorter stem and switch to a non-setback post and the reach would be even less.
it's more the wheelbase and standover which bug me. like the overall size

It's funny how we want to go lean and mean with a handlebar roll and a seat bag, but then we find out we need more space and we add a gas tank, a frame bag, a couple of snack bags, and Anything Cages. I'm not casting aspersions on you, bmike. My bikepacking rig is the same, except I can't fit a seat bag on the bike, so I have a homemade saddlebag instead.

It's funny how we want to go lean and mean with a handlebar roll and a seat bag, but then we find out we need more space and we add a gas tank, a frame bag, a couple of snack bags, and Anything Cages. I'm not casting aspersions on you, bmike. My bikepacking rig is the same, except I can't fit a seat bag on the bike, so I have a homemade saddlebag instead.

I hear you. I love my Krampus. But the triangle is more limiting than on my Fargo.

This was a shoulder seasons cold weather trip. I have a 0° down bag in the seatbag. Full kitchen with me, insulated sleeping pad, 70oz of water, filter, first aid kit, camp clothes (luxury), and a pillow. Along with full rain gear, tubes and tools. Folding saw, headlamp, camera, GPS, spot, personal meds, glasses, etc.

I can get this kit way more lean and mean. But for an overnight with friends and a chance of being cold I toured in relative luxury.

This kit with re supply and a couple of alterations would be good for perpetual touring.
And I didn't bring a backpack.

I'm doing the Divide this summer, and other than the folding saw, I'll be bringing everything you list. Well, OK, the sleeping bag will be a 20 degree bag, but other than that... I'll be gone for a long time, and I would get cold if I tried to go lean and mean.

I'm doing the Divide this summer, and other than the folding saw, I'll be bringing everything you list. Well, OK, the sleeping bag will be a 20 degree bag, but other than that... I'll be gone for a long time, and I would get cold if I tried to go lean and mean.

I'm doing the Divide this summer, and other than the folding saw, I'll be bringing everything you list. Well, OK, the sleeping bag will be a 20 degree bag, but other than that... I'll be gone for a long time, and I would get cold if I tried to go lean and mean.

I did it in '12 and it changes you in ways you wouldn't expect. FYI - I'm not sure that a stove is needed unless you are even more of a caffeine junkie than I am. There are a lot of places for resupply. Lets put it this way, I never went to bed hungry. Shoot me a msg if you have any questions. Happy to help out.

For those of you that run a suspension fork, or anyone really, do you find the BB height to be too high? with the extra girth of the tires, it seems like an abnormally high BB even stock, with a 120mm fork i feel like that would be quite a bit too high.

For those of you that run a suspension fork, or anyone really, do you find the BB height to be too high? with the extra girth of the tires, it seems like an abnormally high BB even stock, with a 120mm fork i feel like that would be quite a bit too high.

Nope. I've never once wanted a lower BB. Works great stock and with a 130mm fork.

For those of you that run a suspension fork, or anyone really, do you find the BB height to be too high? with the extra girth of the tires, it seems like an abnormally high BB even stock, with a 120mm fork i feel like that would be quite a bit too high.

I have not finished building my Krampus yet, but I have tried it on a Mukluk with the same BB drop and 29+ wheels. I think the BB height is pretty close to right for riding off-road. I am putting a suspension fork on mine. I would like a higher BB to give me better clearance for the 190mm long cranks I like to run, but that is not a failing of the bike.
if I wanted more road-like handling, I would probably think more about the ECR

Hey all! Looking to join the Krampus crew as soon as I can figure out which size to get. I'm about 5'10' with an inseam of 31.25 inches and 21 inch arms. I currently ride a Large Karate Monkey with Salsa Woodchipper bars and a stem of about 65 mm.

Surly says that if you ride a large in one of their bikes than you should be fine in a large on any of their other bikes. Looking at the geometry of the Krampus and KM makes me think otherwise, or at least confuses me. The ETT of a Large Km at 24.3 inches is only a smidge longer than a Medium Krampus at 24.0 inches. Maybe surly factors in the length of the stock stem that comes with the bikes? If thats the case than the overall distance from saddle to handlebar would be similar between same sizes of the Krampus and Karate Monkey because the Krampus comes with a shorter stem.

Anyhoo I'm leaning towards a medium based on ETT length but not sure and need some pushing to give me confidence that i'm making the right(ish) choice XD.

I'm 5' 10" with a 31" cycling inseam and a ride medium with a 60mm stem and 750mm low rise bars. I've got a good fit, but wouldn't mind trying a short stem for kicks. I've had a medium KM in the past and liked it too, other than the HT angle.

You need to look at effective tt, head tube height, stack, and reach to determine which is the same size as the large KM.

There is a tangential formula you can use to compare bike sizes with those numbers (I think along with HT angle, if I remember correctly, but it's pretty easy to compare bike size just by looking at the raw numbers.

What would be the best way to get myself into a more upright seating position?

I'm not trying to turn my Krampus into a beach cruiser, but I definitely have some significant wrist pain and numbness after a few hours of riding. I'd like to take a bit of that pressure off my wrists (and also arch my neck less, thus improving my neck comfort).

I understand the aggressive trail bike nature of the Krampus, and I certainly appreciate that and use it for the purpose. However, most of my time is spent in more of a bikepacking mode. I do some gravel roads, fireroads, etc. I'm more likely to do some stream crossings with a bit of modest up- and downhill, versus jumping over logs and doing super technical rock gardens and that sort of thing.

So losing some of the benefit of the aggressive, bent-over geometry isn't a HUGE concern for me.

Having said all that, would you guys recommend spacers, a riser bar (and if so, is there a certain model that seems most popular?) or something totally different? Thanks a lot for any insight you can give me!

What would be the best way to get myself into a more upright seating position?

I'm not trying to turn my Krampus into a beach cruiser, but I definitely have some significant wrist pain and numbness after a few hours of riding. I'd like to take a bit of that pressure off my wrists (and also arch my neck less, thus improving my neck comfort).

I understand the aggressive trail bike nature of the Krampus, and I certainly appreciate that and use it for the purpose. However, most of my time is spent in more of a bikepacking mode. I do some gravel roads, fireroads, etc. I'm more likely to do some stream crossings with a bit of modest up- and downhill, versus jumping over logs and doing super technical rock gardens and that sort of thing.

So losing some of the benefit of the aggressive, bent-over geometry isn't a HUGE concern for me.

Having said all that, would you guys recommend spacers, a riser bar (and if so, is there a certain model that seems most popular?) or something totally different? Thanks a lot for any insight you can give me!

Jones Loop for me. I have them on the Pugsley and the Krampus. I have the Jones bend on the family hauling Yuba Mundo.

The wrist angle is more natural for me. I did not change out the stem.

What would be the best way to get myself into a more upright seating position?

Having said all that, would you guys recommend spacers, a riser bar (and if so, is there a certain model that seems most popular?) or something totally different? Thanks a lot for any insight you can give me!

A new uncut Krampus fork is ~$110 with it you could put the bars at a fairly high position without dealing with a fork steerer extender or new bars. Only comes in black.

Surly Krampus

Get a Carver 490mm fork for $250 and you'll get some height and loose 350 grams. Edit: I'm planning on trying the Carver to gain height and loose some weight and will report back. The front feels a bit low to me too, but causes no problems.

What would be the best way to get myself into a more upright seating position?

I'm not trying to turn my Krampus into a beach cruiser, but I definitely have some significant wrist pain and numbness after a few hours of riding. I'd like to take a bit of that pressure off my wrists (and also arch my neck less, thus improving my neck comfort).

I just built a Krampus and did not like how the stock version felt either. (70mm stem/15mm spacers/stock fork/flat bar) Besides being set up with a suspension fork, I am running a 60mm stem, 15mm of spacers and a 38mm rise bar.

The handlebar is a Deity CZ38 and it features a 9.5 degree sweep. It is the only handlebar available with that much rise and sweep. For me, more sweep on the bar has helped with comfort and I really like the 760mm width for bike control. There are now more high rise bars on the market from Raceface, Easton, Renthal and soon ENVE. These bars all happen to be carbon and have various geometries, but all give 38-46mm of rise.

Another thing you can do to make yourself more upright is push the saddle forward. My Krampus is for bikepacking, and I find it more comfortable to get the saddle quite forward. It helps with seated climbing as well. When my saddle was further back, I found the front wheel wanted to wander on steep climbs.

I found the upright posture I desired on the ECR. I too use the bike primarily for backpacking and long rides so I chose ultimate comfort over the trail ripping qualities of the Krampus. I have/had other bikes that are better suited for fast singletrack and have been happy with this decision. I've also found that the ECR has no trouble moving fast on rocky singletrack.

While I wait for my buddy to post a ride report from our 3 day trip a couple weekends ago. Here is a shot of my Krampus in action. This is its 3rd season as a bikepacking rig and I love it! The combo of the big 29+ Knard tires which roll so well and perform better in the traction department than they have any right to given the minimal knobs mixed with the Krampus's geo makes it awesome for a go anywhere touring rig.

From rough steep mountain hiking trails to GDR style logging roads and even all day pavement stretches to connect dirt - the Krampus delivers.

I have been tempted by some of the new fancy 29+ options, but I keep thinking I'll spend a bunch of $$ and not get the same awesome ride experience as I already have so I stay the course with the Big K.

I will add that if I was not 6'6" and using the bike for bikepacking I'd be rolling a Krampus as well. Tall fellers that want the bars to be level or near with the saddle may want to look at an ECR.

I have yet to buy a complete Surly, but if you are buying frame/fork there is no difference in steerer length [260mm] between a Krampus fork and an ECR fork when uncut so the bars can be placed at the same height.

With the completes I am not sure how long Surly is leaving them for each model of bike.

I have yet to buy a complete Surly, but if you are buying frame/fork there is no difference in steerer length [260mm] between a Krampus fork and an ECR fork when uncut so the bars can be placed at the same height.

With the completes I am not sure how long Surly is leaving them for each model of bike.

The Axle to crown length is different, so handlebar height should be different. The ECR max handlebar height relative to the ground all else equal is shorter.

To me, the higher bb bike is more fun and more stable (takes longer to fall over with higher c.o.g.). Bicycle stability is complex, so some will say lower c.o.g. is more stable.
With ECR It's easier to put your feet on the ground while riding an ecr and staying in the saddle. If you're bike packing up a hill at <1mph, the lower bb may be helpful. Hitting your pedals on the ground when riding in ruts would be a good bit worse on ecr.