All Americans as well as some others on this forum probably know that the contest for the 2008 Democratic presidential nomination is between Hillary Clinton & Barack Obama. This is considered a big cultural change because HC is a woman & BO is black. But there's another, much less obvious, cultural change that's likely to result from this campaign, especially if HC wins. What is it??

Anything to do with Democratic Party policy V republican policy? Will this arise as a result of an election promised being fulfilled (however likely that is)? Or is it simply something to do with the candidates themselves? Anything to do with religous backgrounds? educational? their families? when they were born?

Will this cultural change be felt across the US or just in specific states?

Can i take it that sex and ethnic origin have nothing to do with this puzzle or am I FAing?

Does it have anything to do with presidential inheritance? I.e. There have been distant cousin, Father/son presidents... now there'll be husband/wife presidents? We've only had one other case of a husband/wife governor.

Does it have to do with how people vote? I.e. no longer voting for the "tallest" candidate? Does the change have to do with voter turnout?

Posted on Tuesday, April 08, 2008 - 1:58 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Anything to do with Democratic Party policy V republican policy? no Will this arise as a result of an election promised being fulfilled (however likely that is)? no Or is it simply something to do with the candidates themselves? yes Anything to do with religous backgrounds? noeducational? no their families? noish when they were born? no

Will this cultural change be felt across the US or just in specific states? the former

Can i take it that sex and ethnic origin have nothing to do with this puzzle no. you can't or am I FAing? you're FAingDlcygnet (Dlcygnet) New member Username: Dlcygnet

Post Number: 1246 Registered: 6-2005

Posted on Tuesday, April 08, 2008 - 4:52 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Does it have anything to do with presidential inheritance? no I.e. There have been distant cousin, Father/son presidents... now there'll be husband/wife presidents? We've only had one other case of a husband/wife governor.

Does it have to do with how people vote? no I.e. no longer voting for the "tallest" candidate? noDoes the change have to do with voter turnout? no

Will the change only arise if the Democrats win the White House in November? Or is the competition for the nomination itself enough to create the change?

If the competition was for the Republican nomination would the change occur? Or are Democratic policies specifically relevant?

Liberalism/conservatism relevant? Maybe more conservative people who have voted Democrat before will now vote Republican? Or the whole country might shift slightly towards a more liberal outlook?

Are racism and/or sexism relevant? People who might feel that one or the other of the candidates might not make a good leader because of their sex/race? Is it relevant that people might feel they can't criticisethe candidates because they will be accused of sexism or racism?

Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2008 - 9:39 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Will the change only arise if the Democrats win the White House in November? Or is the competition for the nomination itself enough to create the change?

If the competition was for the Republican nomination would the change occur?It could occur in any case but is both likely & likely to be more extteme if the Democrats win Or are Democratic policies specifically relevant? no

Liberalism/conservatism relevant? no Maybe more conservative people who have voted Democrat before will now vote Republican? no Or the whole country might shift slightly towards a more liberal outlook? no

Are racism and/or sexism relevant? noPeople who might feel that one or the other of the candidates might not make a good leader because of their sex/race? no Is it relevant that people might feel they can't criticisethe candidates because they will be accused of sexism or racism? no

Are people's beliefs likely to be changed? Their thoughts on race/gender issues? Is prejudice relevant?

The reason why the change is more likely in HC wins: Because more people are uneasy with the thought of a female president than are uneasy with the thought of a black president? Becuase having a female president could be seen as a more radical change than having a black president? Because her husband has already been President?

Is there anything relevant about Obama other than his race? Is his race relevant? Is there anything relevant about Clinton other than her gender? Is her gender relevant?

Are either of the two candidate's backgrounds relevant? Their previous political careers? Their beliefs and policies? Their reputation? Their popularity?

Is the change likely to be lasting? Would evryone consider it a change for te better? Some people? Would whether you consider it good or not depend on your politcal beliefs?

The reason why the change is more likely in HC wins: Because more people are uneasy with the thought of a female president than are uneasy with the thought of a black president? noBecuase having a female president could be seen as a more radical change than having a black president? noBecause her husband has already been President? no

Is there anything relevant about Obama other than his race? no Is his race relevant? noIs there anything relevant about Clinton other than her gender? yes Is her gender relevant? yes

Are either of the two candidate's backgrounds relevant? no Their previous political careers? no Their beliefs and policies? no Their reputation? no Their popularity? no

Is the change likely to be lasting? yes Would evryone consider it a change for te better? noSome people? yes Would whether you consider it good or not depend on your politcal beliefs? no

So is it only the fact that Clinton is campaigning which would bring about the change? If she was campaigning against a white man would the change still be likely? If there was no competition for the nomination and she had definitely got it?

Are people's views on women likely to change? Are women likely to succeed better in employment, or be seen as higher status, because Clinton proved that women can be successful leaders?

The relevant thing about Clinton, is it to do with politics? With who is likely to support her? Or not support her? Her family? Appearance? Is it something that most people would know about her?

Posted on Friday, April 11, 2008 - 9:48 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) So is it only the fact that Clinton is campaigning which would bring about the change? yesIf she was campaigning against a white man would the change still be likely? yes If there was no competition for the nomination and she had definitely got it? yes

Are people's views on women likely to change? noish Are women likely to succeed better in employment, or be seen as higher status, because Clinton proved that women can be successful leaders? no

The relevant thing about Clinton, is it to do with politics? no With who is likely to support her? no Or not support her? no Her family? no Appearance? no Is it something that most people would know about her? yes

Posted on Friday, April 11, 2008 - 10:29 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Relevant that we'll have a former First Lady as president? no That a former president will be First Man? no That we'll even have a First Man? no

Anything to do with pronouns? The use of He vs. She or Madame vs. Mister?

Is the something else about her that is relevant... A characteristic of her? (If so, physical? Mental? Personality?) A decision she has made? An action she has taken/will take? An assumption made about her? An association or cause she is associated with?

Posted on Monday, April 14, 2008 - 2:34 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Anything to do with pronouns? no The use of He vs. She or Madame vs. Mister? no

Is the something else about her that is relevant... A characteristic of her? yes (If so, physical? no Mental? no Personality? no) A decision she has made? noAn action she has taken/will take? no An assumption made about her? no An association or cause she is associated with? no

Posted on Tuesday, April 15, 2008 - 9:57 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) I read something which theorised that Clinton's campaign could lead to a surge in the number of women becoming feminists, is that relevant? noGourami (Gourami) New member Username: Gourami

Posted on Monday, April 21, 2008 - 3:34 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Anything to do with the "Clinton Health plan" which she unsuccessfully tried to get through when she was first lady? no

Any other cause she supported relevant? no

Hilary was a memeber of the republican party in the 60's is this relevant? no

Posted on Monday, April 21, 2008 - 3:34 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Anything to do with the "Clinton Health plan" which she unsuccessfully tried to get through when she was first lady? no

Any other cause she supported relevant? no

Hilary was a memeber of the republican party in the 60's is this relevant? no

If, say, Jackie Kennedy had stood for President, would you expect a similar change to have come about? If Hillary Clinton were in the race against another woman, would you expect the same change to come about? To be more extreme? Less extreme? Are any of Clinton's policies relevant? Is any sort of modern technology relevant? Is the relevant characterstic of Clinton something to do with her husband? her past actions? Some inherited trait?

Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 7:24 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) If, say, Jackie Kennedy had stood for President, would you expect a similar change to have come about? possibly but it would be less likely & probably less pronouncedIf Hillary Clinton were in the race against another woman, would you expect the same change to come about? yesTo be more extreme? noLess extreme? noAre any of Clinton's policies relevant? noIs any sort of modern technology relevant? Is the relevant characterstic of Clinton something to do with her husband? no her past actions? noSome inherited trait?possiblyish--I don't actually know

Just to check, if (when?) Hillary loses the democratic nomination to Obama, you would still expect the same change to come about, right? but to a lesser extent? Because she would already have been involved in a major election campaign? Is it something to do with a default assumption that candidates are male that can no longer exist in the future?

So it is relevant that Hillary is a woman, and something else is also relevant: That she's a mother? Her age? Something to do with her appearance? Is this other charecteristic something that could also be true of a man? Is true of Obama?

Posted on Friday, April 25, 2008 - 1:48 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Just to check, if (when?) Hillary loses the democratic nomination to Obama, you would still expect the same change to come about, right?yes but to a lesser extent? yesBecause she would already have been involved in a major election campaign? noIs it something to do with a default assumption that candidates are male that can no longer exist in the future? no

So it is relevant that Hillary is a woman, and something else is also relevant: That she's a mother? no Her age? no Something to do with her appearance? noIs this other charecteristic something that could also be true of a man? yes or yesish Is true of Obama? no

Posted on Saturday, April 26, 2008 - 2:59 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Is it a social minority thing? no(I know women aren't exactly a minority, but they've been marginalized.) EEEEEEEK!! I may be (am) a (knee-jerk?) liberal, but I'd rather hear chalk squeak on a blackboard than see PC jargon like 'marginalized'. But to each his (ooops, her? own.

The characteristic isn't true of Obama but the change would still occur if he won (and McCain didn't)? yes. But the change will be stronger & more likely the more successful HC is, i.e. if she gets the nomination & even more so if she wins the election.

I need to think some more about this one. I eagerly await the results!!

Is it relevant that she would be the first female president? Relevant that other countries have already had female leaders?

Is there anything relevant about America to make this puzze work (except perhaps the previous lack of female presidents, as stated above)? Would this work in another country, provided it had a similar democratic system? Would it work in Britain? Would it work in Britain if there had never yet been a female Prime Minister?

Posted on Saturday, April 26, 2008 - 8:55 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Is it relevant that she would be the first female president?noish or yope Relevant that other countries have already had female leaders? no

Is there anything relevant about America to make this puzze work (except perhaps the previous lack of female presidents, as stated above)? yes Would this work in another country, provided it had a similar democratic system? someWould it work in Britain? yes Would it work in Britain if there had never yet been a female Prime Minister? yes & even if there had been

If it were perfectly commonplace for the President to be female, would the effect still occur? To a lesser extent? Not at all? What if there had been other female presidents but it was still not the norm?

Is it relevant how the president of America is elected? Are any other presidents? Or politicians? Or just other people? relevant other than Hillary Clinton?

Is the relevant thing about America to do with its political system? Typical attitudes and beliefs? Language?

Posted on Saturday, April 26, 2008 - 9:12 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) If it were perfectly commonplace for the President to be female, would the effect still occur? yes To a lesser extent? possibly Not at all? no What if there had been other female presidents but it was still not the norm? yes

Is it relevant how the president of America is elected? noAre any other presidents? yope Or politicians? yope Or just other people? yesrelevant other than Hillary Clinton? yes

Is the relevant thing about America to do with its political system? no Typical attitudes and beliefs? yope Language?yesish or yope

Posted on Saturday, April 26, 2008 - 9:28 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) I realised that I left my previous question a little vague...if it were normal to have a female president, would the effect have already happened? possible but very unlikely Or would it still only occur with Clinton's campaign? much more likely

Could this occur in all English-speaking countries? yes Only those countries? yes Are male vs female words relevant yes (him vs her, he vs she etc)? not the ones you list

Would a traditional term applied to the President, or to a political candidate, not apply to Clinton because of her gender? Something similar to Bill Clinton being First Man when there hasn't been one before (I know you said that wasn't relevant, but anything along those lines)?

Posted on Saturday, April 26, 2008 - 10:41 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Would a traditional term applied to the President, or to a political candidate, not apply to Clinton because of her gender? no Something similar to Bill Clinton being First Man when there hasn't been one before (I know you said that wasn't relevant, but anything along those lines)? no

Are any trappings of being president relevant? e.g. Will Camp David be renamed camp Daphne? (THAT'S A JOKE) But seriously will some common terminology change as a result of Clinton's or Obama's victory?

Posted on Sunday, April 27, 2008 - 1:10 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Are any trappings of being president relevant? no e.g. Will Camp David be renamed camp Daphne? no (THAT'S A JOKE) But seriously will some common terminology change as a result of Clinton's or Obama's victory? noish

Anything to do with the make-up or potential make-up of their cabinet?

If Hilary wins is another women slated to be appointed to a position that no women has held before? Likewise for Obama is a black person favourite to be appointed to a position that no black man has held (apart from Obama becoming president of course)

If Hilary wins is another women slated to be appointed to a position that no women has held before?no Likewise for Obama is a black person favourite to be appointed to a position that no black man has held (apart from Obama becoming president of course) no

Does this have to do with the language that is used for documents and oaths and how people speak? I.e. "All men are created equal..." Are are *ahem* people using the term people more often rather than men to refer to humankind in general. Does this have to do with the emasculating of society?

Does this have to do with the language that is used for documents and oaths and how people speak? no I.e. "All men are created equal..." Are are *ahem* people using the term people more often rather than men to refer to humankind in general. irrel Does this have to do with the emasculating of society? no--whatever "emasculating of society" is supposed to mean

Are the relevant nouns some kind of appellation? Mr? Mrs? Dr? Ms? Miss? Man? Woman? Chairman? Chairperson? Spokeswoman? Is there a finite number of nouns we need to discover? Or is it a more generally applicable concept?

Did a similar cultural change occur in 1979 in the UK when Mrs Thatcher was elected?

If Hillary wins the next election but loses horribly to a reactionary Republican in the following one, will the cultural change be reversed? If so, will it be reversed utterly? Partly?

Are the relevant nouns some kind of appellation? yes Mr? no Mrs? no Dr? no Ms? no Miss? no Man? no Woman? no Chairman? no Chairperson? noSpokeswoman? noIs there a finite number of nouns we need to discover? yesOr is it a more generally applicable concept? no

Did a similar cultural change occur in 1979 in the UK when Mrs Thatcher was elected? no

If Hillary wins the next election but loses horribly to a reactionary Republican in the following one, will the cultural change be reversed? no If so, will it be reversed utterly? no Partly? no

Are we looking for one appelation? Two? More? Would the applelation(s) refer to Hillary herself? If so, now? When/if she becomes the Democratic nominee? When/if she becomes President? Does it refer to another politician? Does it refer to one person? A few people? Many people? Is it currently only a male word(s)? A female word? A word with different gender forms (eg waiter/waitress)? As a result of the cultural change, would the word(s) be changed? Dropped out of usage? A new form of them be used? Apply to someone/something they had never previously applied to?

Posted on Saturday, May 03, 2008 - 9:03 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Are we looking for one appelation? yes Two? noMore? noWould the applelation(s) refer to Hillary herself? yes If so, now? yes When/if she becomes the Democratic nominee? yes When/if she becomes President? yesDoes it refer to another politician? Possibly, but none that I know ofDoes it refer to one person? noA few people? no Many people?fairly many Is it currently only a male word(s)? no A female word? no A word with different gender forms (eg waiter/waitress)? yopeAs a result of the cultural change, would the word(s) be changed? no Dropped out of usage? noish A new form of them be used? no Apply to someone/something they had never previously applied to? no

Is the word we are looking for a title? Would it make sense to say "______ Hillary Clinton"? "Hillary Clinton is ________"? "Hillary Clinton is a _______"? Are there both men and women who are referred to by the appellation? Could it refer to people of any job? Any race?

Posted on Saturday, May 03, 2008 - 9:35 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Is the word we are looking for a title? Would it make sense to say "______ Hillary Clinton"? no "Hillary Clinton is ________"? yes "Hillary Clinton is a _______"? yesAre there both men and women who are referred to by the appellation? yes Could it refer to people of any job? yes Any race? yes

I'm having trouble imagining what the word could be, so... Did it apply to Hillary from the moment she was born? From the moment she became a politician? From the moment she married? From when she first got elected to an office? From when she became First Lady? From when she announced she was running for President? From when she became a serious contendor?

Posted on Saturday, May 03, 2008 - 10:25 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) I'm having trouble imagining what the word could be, so... Did it apply to Hillary from the moment she was born?yes From the moment she became a politician? see previous answer From the moment she married? ditto From when she first got elected to an office? ditto From when she became First Lady? ditto From when she announced she was running for President? ditto From when she became a serious contendor? ditto

Does this word also apply to Bill Clinton? To Obama? To Chelsea Clinton? George Bush? Margaret Thatcher? Britney Spears? Thomas Mallory? Is the phrase "Mister President" relevant? Would this change result in different language being used to describe the president? to describe something related to the presidency? Would the new language be more accurate? More "PC"?

You say you wouldn't welcome this change if it occurred - but would it actually be unwelcome to you? Or are you fairly neutral about it?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Does this word also apply to Bill Clinton? To Obama? To Chelsea Clinton? George Bush? Margaret Thatcher? Britney Spears? Thomas Mallory? it doesn't apply to any of themIs the phrase "Mister President" relevant no? Would this change result in different language being used to describe the president?no to describe something related to the presidency? noWould the new language be more accurate? no More "PC"? no

You say you wouldn't welcome this change if it occurred - but would it actually be unwelcome to you? no Or are you fairly neutral about it?yes

Does this have anything to do with refering to candidates by first name?

Which reminds me... will we be calling her "President Hillary" if she wins, since she's trying to separate herself from her husband's name as much as possible?

P.s. Emasculation of society encapsules how politically correct we've become, "sesitivity training," and how laws overwhelmingly favor females to the point where a guy can be arrested for abuse for punching the wall if a woman is in the room, while a woman can rape/beat her boyfriend/husband and nothing will happen to her (guy just gets laughed at).

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nouns... Names? yes First name? yesDoes this have anything to do with refering to candidates by first name? yope

Which reminds me... will we be calling her "President Hillary" if she wins, since she's trying to separate herself from her husband's name as much as possible? Who knows? But if we do, that will intensify the change

P.s. Emasculation of society encapsules how politically correct we've become, "sesitivity training," and how laws overwhelmingly favor females to the point where a guy can be arrested for abuse for punching the wall if a woman is in the room,How often has this acxtually occurred, if at all?? while a woman can rape/beat her boyfriend/husband and nothing will happen to her (guy just gets laughed at) ditt. This sounds like the flip side of feminism: the other sex gets all the breaks while "mine" is oppressed}

Is the name "Hillary" relevant? Relevant that she spells it with 2 "l"s instead of the more usual Hilary? Relevant that she claimed to be named after Edmund Hillary? Will more people call their children Hillary? Hillary will become more popular than Hilary? Hillary will be considered more a first name than a surname? Will it be considered more a female name than a male name (though as far as I know it's not a male name)?

Hilary is a name that (in my country at least) may be given to boys and girls in equal measure. It means simply "cheerful", from the Latin (cf. "hilarious"). As I remarked on this very forum a few years ago, well it was said by the bard:

G stands for Gnu, whose weapons of Defence Are long, sharp, curling Horns, and Common Sense. To these he adds a Name so short and strong That even Hardy Boers pronounce it wrong. How often, on a bright autumnal day, The Pious People of Pretoria say "Come, let us hunt the... " Then no more is heard But Sounds of Strong Men struggling with a word. Meanwhile the distant Gnu, with grateful eyes, Observes his opportunity - and flies.

MORAL

Child, if you have a rummy kind of Name, Remember to be thankful for the same.

Posted on Friday, May 09, 2008 - 4:39 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Is the name "Hillary" relevant? yes Relevant that she spells it with 2 "l"s instead of the more usual Hilary? see below Relevant that she claimed to be named after Edmund Hillary? noWill more people call their children Hillary?see below Hillary will become more popular than Hilary? ditto Hillary will be considered more a first name than a surname? no Will it be considered more a female name than a male name yes (though as far as I know it's not a male name)? In the US, with 2 l's it's a female name, with one, it's a male name. The male name has been on the way out, & Hillary Clinton as President or even as Democratic nominee will probably finish it offWoubit (Woubit) Moderator Username: Woubit

Post Number: 255 Registered: 5-2007

Posted on Friday, May 09, 2008 - 11:17 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Hilary is a name that (in my country at least) may be given to boys and girls in equal measure. It means simply "cheerful", from the Latin (cf. "hilarious"). see above As I remarked on this very forum a few years ago, well it was said by the bard:

G stands for Gnu, whose weapons of Defence Are long, sharp, curling Horns, and Common Sense. To these he adds a Name so short and strong That even Hardy Boers pronounce it wrong. How often, on a bright autumnal day, The Pious People of Pretoria say "Come, let us hunt the... " Then no more is heard But Sounds of Strong Men struggling with a word. Meanwhile the distant Gnu, with grateful eyes, Observes his opportunity - and flies.

MORAL

Child, if you have a rummy kind of Name, Remember to be thankful for the same.

**** SPOILER ************ As I said above, In the US, 'Hillary'with 2 l's is a female name, with one, it's a male name. The male name has been on the way out, & Hillary Clinton as President or even as Democratic nominee will probably finish it off. Thanks for sticking with it, everyone, & for solving it, Enjay, & please check out my new puzzle at the bottom of the page