Welcome to the TiVo
Community Forum ArchiveThis archive covers threads on TiVo
Community Forum that have not been posted to from the start until June 30, 2004. Any
thread that has a post made to it between 7/1/04 and 12/31/05, that had not been posted to, will be found in
Archive 2.
This is a READ ONLY site.

Not much detail, as they aren't available yet. They are supposed to have a large capacity standalone and a DVD recorder hybrid unit. I think the expectation is that they'll be less expensive than the Pioneer options, being a Korean manufacturer.

They are also planning on selling a TV with some trick-play-like features, but they don't talk about it as using TiVo technologies.

People have been speculating that they could be the first to release an OpenCable TiVo, as they've apparently been working on OpenCable tuners and have shipping DVB (both satellite and terrestrial) receivers for sale overseas, but they've made no announcement to that effect.

Ethernet? No way. USB 2.0 is definitely the way to go, and I'm sorry, I don't buy the "dongle is too much trouble" thing. I'm running USB 2.0 Ethernet adapters on my three Series 2 DTivos and they work great.

quote:Originally posted by bsnelson Ethernet? No way. USB 2.0 is definitely the way to go, and I'm sorry, I don't buy the "dongle is too much trouble" thing. I'm running USB 2.0 Ethernet adapters on my three Series 2 DTivos and they work great.

Brad

This has been debated to death, and everyone is entitled to their opinion. I agree with Brad on many things, but on this one I have to disagree.

A dedicated Ethernet port is the way to go. This will free up the USB port(s)for any add-ons that may come our way. Still holding my breath...

A dedicated Ethernet port frees us up from the mind-numbingly slow software releases from TiVo. Where's the USB 2.0 drivers?

Dongles are too much trouble. They require extra space behind the unit, they cost extra $$$, and we're pretty much tied into the chip sets that TiVo decides to support.

quote:Originally posted by bsnelson Ethernet? No way. USB 2.0 is definitely the way to go, and I'm sorry, I don't buy the "dongle is too much trouble" thing. I'm running USB 2.0 Ethernet adapters on my three Series 2 DTivos and they work great.

Brad

No one is saying that they can't still have USB ports... just add a built-in ethernet port.

quote:Originally posted by bsnelson Ethernet? No way. USB 2.0 is definitely the way to go, and I'm sorry, I don't buy the "dongle is too much trouble" thing. I'm running USB 2.0 Ethernet adapters on my three Series 2 DTivos and they work great.

Brad

Tell that to all the people I know who bought ReplayTV instead of TiVo, even after I had explained why TiVo was superior, precisely because of the reasons that you dismiss, and for other reasons you chose to ignore.

Go read a lot of web reviews of TiVo where slowness of the initial setup over phone lines, and difficulty setting up networking, were the number one reasons why the reviewers recommended Replay or some other DVR or DVR/DVD-player/recorder, precisely because TiVo didn't think to make this a "no brainer" by simply adding an Ethernet port.

This is one instance where I can point to and show precisely how TiVo has lost potential sales and potential new subscribers. It simply isn't a debateable question anymore.

Add the d_mned Ethernet ports already. This has nothing to do with an "either/or" argument pitting Ethernet against USB. That's a red herring argument and always has been.

Let me try to explain the problem in terms that get us past this silly "Ethernet vs. USB" mindset.

Here's a real life example of me trying to convince someone to get TiVo:

Him: I'm going to get a DVR, and I understand why you say TiVo is superior, but I don't have a telephone landline, just broadband and a LAN. ReplayTV has an Ethernet port, so I'm going to get that.

Me: But you can add a USB dongle to connect your TiVo to your LAN.

Him: Will it work out of the box? Will it be up and working as quickly and easily as a ReplayTV?

Me: No, well, first you will have to connect to a phone landline and download your setup info and guide data...

Him: I don't have a phone line.

Me: Well, you could download the guide data at my house or somewhere else that has a phone line...

Him: And then it will work?

Me: Well, no, you will still have to wait, since TiVo 3.0 doesn't support a LAN connection, however....

Him: So it won't work....

Me: No, there are workarounds I think which work under 3.0, which...

Him: Uh-huh.

Me: ...which allow you to add some kind of prefix to allow you to "dial out" over your LAN under 3.0, which should work until you get 4.0 downloaded, but I don't know exactly how that works, but you can get the details from this neat web forum at www.tivocommunity.com...

Him: And then it will work?

Me: Yes, however as I was going to add, you can leave the TiVo at my house and wait for a 4.0 software update, or you can force another redial after the guide data is downloaded, and you should then get 4.0 software which will work with your LAN.

Him: And then it will work?

Me: Probably, unless you are using certain Ethernet or WiFi dongles which aren't supported or need new drivers loaded, but you can find more about that at www.tivocommunity.com...

Him: (eyes glazing over) Uh-huh.

One week later, and he has a ReplayTV unit installed and working fine. All arguments I make at this point about how TiVo is superior are now moot.

quote:Originally posted by dmdeane Me: Yes, however as I was going to add, you can leave the TiVo at my house and wait for a 4.0 software update, or you can force another redial after the guide data is downloaded, and you should then get 4.0 software which will work with your LAN.

Actually all new units shipping today come with 4.01 preloaded, so they would only need to complete the initial setup via the phone line. In fact, with the right wired adapter, they wouldn't even need a phoneline for that. (i.e. using the ,#401 backdoor)

Dan

__________________
Moderator: TiVo Coffee House, Help Center, HD Powered PVRs, Home Media Option & Happy Hour
4 TiVo branded Series 2 units
1 Pioneer 810H Series 2 unit
All with LifetimeNote: Two of the above TiVos actually belong to loopey, but I have access to them so I'm counting them

quote:Originally posted by Dan203 Actually all new units shipping today come with 4.01 preloaded, so they would only need to complete the initial setup via the phone line. In fact, with the right wired adapter, they wouldn't even need a phoneline for that. (i.e. using the ,#401 backdoor)

Dan

(N.B.: My dialogue - which is actually a composite conversation with several different people - took place before 4.0 was shipping preloaded, in case there was any confusion on that matter, not that I think any of them would care today about 4.0 since they don't want to buy a dongle after spending so much money for TiVo in the first place. It's really a moot point: no Ethernet means no sale to them, period, game over, end of discussion.)

The point of my dialogue posted above is that non-TiVo users aren't interested in hearing about our "backdoor" features, tricks, tweaks, and other excuses for why the dang thing just doesn't work out of the box like it should.

They want the box to work for them out of the box. They don't want to have to go to some web forum and search for this kind of info. Expect them to jump through hoops to get their TiVo working the way they want, when other DVRs make it easier for them out of the box, and they will invariably go for the other DVRs instead. TiVo loses another potential customer.

And I don't think they are being unreasonable in their expectations, either.

Sure, now TiVos are shipping with 4.0 software, but the horse has already bolted the stable and closing the door now isn't going to undo what has been done. TiVo has lost sales, gotten bad reviews, and bad word of mouth, because of this.

(N.B.: To forestall accusations of "crying over spilt milk", let me clarify here that my purpose is not to "cry over spilt milk" but to simply assert the fact that the milk has indeed been spilt. There are still a lot of people in denial over this point, who still haven't realized that this is indeed a mistake with some negative consequences for TiVo.)

And the point still stands that TiVo can't work out of the box for those who don't have landlines (without jumping through hoops, which they won't do), and that its initial set up is still painfully slow compared to what a ReplayTV can do with a broadband connection. This is a major stumbling block for many purchasers who don't have landlines. There are many more of these kinds of people now than you realize. Trust me, I have met them.

These people won't listen to our explanations or our "workarounds". They will simply buy a Replay or some other DVR. They aren't a huge number of people, but they are a significant portion of TiVos potential market right now and losing them doesn't do TiVo any good.

As long as we have to explain the "ifs, ands, or buts" about TiVo LAN functionality, TiVo loses potential customers. They aren't going to listen to our workarounds. They are going to go elsewhere. As long has we have to explain things and make excuses, we will get "uh huh" reactions and "eyes glazing over" looks, and we will lose them. Another potential TiVo convert lost.

All of this could have been avoided for a few extra dollars or cents per box with a built-in Ethernet port. "Support" costs for Ethernet are virtually nil. Ethernet has been around forever and simply works without any bugs or glitches.

Not including Ethernet ports and forcing new users to use a landline (or an obscure hack) for initial set up is simply bizarre. I understand if the current Series 2 production lines can't be changed to accomodate Ethernet now, but that restriction doesn't apply to TiVo's hardware partners.

I would hope Humax or someone else will step up to the plate and give us some choice in TiVo hardware options, rather than another "more of the same" copy of the existing TiVo standalone models. Humax, stand apart from the crowd, please! Give us some choice in TiVo hardware!

Sony provided us with some "extras" (list button, larger case and room for second harddrive, better save-to-VCR function with Sony VCRs, etc). Adding an Ethernet port would help seperate any new box from the rest of the TiVo herd, so here's hoping someone at one of the TiVo hardware partners is thinking along these lines.

quote:Originally posted by MediaLivingRoom I say forget the back door, just offer Broadband connection "option" from the start... and include a USB-TO-Ethernet adapter. They can always still connect using a POTS line.

Well, that's a thought, but it does add an extra expense to TiVo which only some of TiVo's customers will take advantage of.

If TiVo is going to spend the money anyway, it would be much cheaper in the long run to simply build in an actual Ethernet port to the TiVo hardware, rather than buying a more expense USB-to-Ethernet dongle and adding that to every TiVo box sent to retailers or customers.

So at best including a dongle with every TiVo would only be a temporary fix, until such time as all TiVos come with built in Ethernet ports as standard.

Given TiVo's push to extract extra dollars for HMO and TiVo-To-Go, both of which REQUIRE network access, IMO, it only makes sense for them to invest $2.50 or whatever a 10/100 port ethernet port costs up front to make these options simpler to acquire from a user standpoint.