There has been a lot of discussion over this trope in recent days. Some say the description should/should not include the grades, some say the description is too clinical/gushy, and some say there shouldn't be examples. This seems to be a big issue, so I'd like everyone to discuss.

I think the description is okay. The grades don't originate from TV Tropes, so they should still be there.

Of the three parts, socks, skin, and skirt, the skirt part seems to differ the most. Sometimes it's about shorts, and sometimes various swimsuits or leotards. I think it's okay as the purpose of it is to highlight by contrast the vulnerable skin on the upper thigh.

I don't think there's a problem with having examples. There's no silly stigma attached to it, like panties, so it comes off as less creepy.

It was mentioned before that some folks might have a problem with the clinical, tongue-in-cheek serious-business tone of the article (which I conjectured began from here). If true, then it's sensible to just change the tone, since it's only there as a joke.

Additionally, the "budding, innocent sexuality" bit is analytical and not central to the trope while being noticeably more... flavourful than the rest of the description.

I'm not bothered with it, but it's good compromise.

The words above are to be read as if they are narrated by Morgan Freeman.

I think we can trim the paragraph about "budding innocent sexuality" and well, although I don't personally mind, the inclusion of how "it's the most popular fetish in Japan" may be drawing a bit of the problematic bits.

Except both are very true. The first one it's the personality connected to this, which is why it is so common with Tsundere (Coupled with the innocent Twin Tails makes the extreme version knows as Grade S), The Ingenue, non extreme Tomboys (as in the ones that still wear girly stuff but play sports, rude and such.) some Tall, Dark and Bishōjo and Moe characters. (Depends on the characterization and the character designer's willingness to pander to the type.)

I disagree. Yes, the "most popular fetish" but is factual and can stay, but the first is just an interpretation of the trope which is by no means universal. I for one have never seen the trope in an "innocent" angle.

The words above are to be read as if they are narrated by Morgan Freeman.

But the titillation is precisely in the delicate balance between "innocent" and "sexual". The two are exclusive concepts, but the concept of this trope is on the very delicate and precise "sweet spot" a character designer needs to hit to use the trope effectively.

Remember, this began primarily in Japan, in which the concepts of innocence and sexuality are tied together.

which teaches the young ladies about "real" relationships and is meant to be outgrown eventually

Les Yay school girl types, or the extremely innocent but hopeful for a relationship Robot Girl Chachamaru in Negima! who has these built into her body (a trait she shares with Aigis in Persona 3 who follows the same arc) The extremely innocent and distant types who want to get into a relationship but cant like Sayaka from Madoka Magica. etc

BTW I personally was cool with it as it was, but due to all the debate, there needed to be a thread. @Kingzeal - yes, the reason it's long socks is that a)it can be worn with a school outfit without breaking protocol b) it doesn't seem as 'intentional' as say, Stocking Filler The intentionality is a sign of maturity.

I think we can trim the paragraph about "budding innocent sexuality" and well, although I don't personally mind, the inclusion of how "it's the most popular fetish in Japan" may be drawing a bit of the problematic bits.

While using the word budding seems a little off to me*

It makes me feel like someone is watching the girl and keeping tabs just waiting until they're old enough

, I'll note that the previous thread had consensus that that part of the article must be there as it was the core of the trope. What does this costume choice actually mean and what makes it a trope? If you want to get rid of that, you're probably going to have to attach some other significance to this costume/fetish trope. I don't think doing so would be a good idea, either, since what we have does appear to be symbolic in the sense we claim it does: You don't really see Zettai Ryouiki on adults much.

The main issues I have with the grades is that 1) they are specific to the anime fandom, and this trope is far from anime-only or even Japanese media-only and 2) they are exactly the same thing as unnamed types, which we are squishing with extreme prejudice elsewhere on the wiki.

The examples look clean right now because three moderators and an unknown number of others have all taken a turn at cleaning them. I should hope to hell they're thoroughly sanitary by now. What we really need is a full-time curator for this page, since it is (as Raso is wont to point out) a very popular trope.

We don't need to mention it's the number one fetish in Japan. It may be factually true, but it has nothing to do with the trope.

We do need to make the description less anime-centric. It may be popular in anime, but it is not exclusive to it and did not originate there.

We do need to move the information about the Trope Namer down, and the actual trope part up.

I don't think we need to cut the symbolism out, because this is the way I see it used (and I don't watch anime). However, we can work on the way it's worded if it's creepy.

It's been brought up that the grades are part of the symbolism, but this information is nowhere on the page other than "Grade S", which is when this trope intersects with others. If this is true, then it needs mentioning.

I'm sure there's other stuff I wanted to say, too, but it's not coming to me right now.

Ccoa: I assumed this was a Japanese costume trope that mostly caught on in the last decade or so. Could you cite a non Japanese example that contains the same symbolism? I know the costume itself can be seen elsewhere but I wasn't aware the same implications were attached to it.

^ I believe they're there specifically so we can tell people 'No, it's not this trope, go away and stop adding it.'

Mads put it better than I could for the origin of the trope, so I'll copy it here:

Long socks and short skirt with bare flesh showing in between them, as an indicator of sexuality is older than ZR, and Western in origin. It goes back to the 1920's in the US, when Flappers would wear their stocking unhooked from their garters and rolled down so that some amount of bare skin showe dbetween the top of the stockings and the hem of their dress. In the form of Thigh-high sheer or fishnet stocking and a short skirt it was a standard for "sexy" costumes by the early 70's in the US.

The biggest differences between that use and ZR is that it was almost always sheer or fishnet stockings in the west, rather than the opaque-style socks anime and manga popularized, and it was not something that a schoolgirl would wear. It certainly would never be officially part of a school uniform in anything but the very mildest "knee-high socks+ skirt hem slightly above the knee" form

As to Western examples, I'll re-cite the two I already mentioned:

Cassie, in Push, who is 13 but is sexualized in an innocent way by the movie.

Echo, in Dollhouse, an adult, but as a doll her default state is one of innocence. She's "dressed up" with a personality and outfit to suit the people who hire her out.

Going through the page, I see:

Supergirl in the 70s (predating the trope namer), who is a teenager, I believe.

Rose Walker from Sandman - men are attracted to her because her grandparent is Desire, but she herself is relatively innocent. She's incapable of actually falling in love in the arc that the costume is featured in.

All that makes me think this needs a serious re-write, and maybe even a rename. I didn't realize that this originated as a Western trope, maybe because I never gave stockings and skirts all that much thought. Now girls are wearing stockings and no skirts, but that's a whole different thing.

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