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Enough with the 'Lets keep this team the same!' Crap!

I'm not singling anyone out, but I've read several, SEVERAL posts about keeping the Pacers team the same. I'm not sure you guys want a championship with this talk. It's like, it hasn't worked before, what makes you think it's gunna work now?

As much as I hate to say this, I'll say it, Jermaine O'neal is an important peice to this team. That isn't hard to admit for some, but I find O'neal's lack of trust in other teammates to be very aggrivating, but that's another story, another argument. Every good team needs a good big man, and O'neal is just that, a good big man. You guys all know his values.

Ron Artest is perhaps my favorite player on the court with his defense intensity and the fact that he brings consistancy and plays with more heart than anyone I've ever seen. I believe he's a changed man and I'm willing to bet that he'll take the nba by storm next season, being just as good as he was at the beginning of last season.

Jamaal Tinsley is exactly the point guard we need on this team. He's a great floor leader and runs the point exactly the way I think we need it. If you watch AJ run the point for a while, like we did, and then see Jamaal run the point again, like we did, you get to appreciate everything he brings to the table. He has court vision, which I don't think ANYONE else on this team does. He can find people open on the perimeter, as well as dump the ball to someone open downlow. I've got to believe that if this team has a shot to win it all, it's with Jamaal running the point.

Stephen Jackson is the most expendable player we've got on this team. And I'm not saying I don't like Stephen Jackson. I love the guy. I think he proved his defensive abilities against Tayshaun Prince in the playoffs last season. He's just to inconsistant for this team and his decision making is pretty crappy. But I'll be happy with him being on this team if there is no available deal for another impact player. But as far as the Pacers' key peices, Jackson has got to be the most expendable and attractive player to other teams.

Dale Davis. If DD re-signs, that is, I'll be happy with him starting again this season. But I don't think Dale can play that many minutes. I'm all for the grooming of Harrison to be the eventual starter, but I don't think Harrison will be ready for another year or two.

David Harrison, like I just said, I think Hulk will be the future for us at center. I like Harrison and feel that he'll be a better Eric Dampier. Maybe Dampier with offense and hair.

Jeff Foster. I love Frosty and feel that he's an important key for us to win a championship. I'm willing to bet that the Spurs would add him to their team if they could. He's a role player that bring energy off the bench, as well as play down the stretch. I think Foster is best suited off the bench. He's two underrated to trade though, so I'd like to go on the record to say that I think trading Foster is a retarded move to make.

Freddie Jones. I love Freddie. The highlight video I believe that soup posted has reminded me of the Freddie that makes shots and thunderous dunks. I think Freddie gets better every year and once he learns to play with consistancy and knock down the jumpers on a regular basis, we'll be on the right path. I think Fred can be one of those key, 'role players'.

Now I'm gunna get nasty.

Anthony Johnson. I think Johnson is a complete f**k @$$! Yeah, he's a decent player. But he's overrated and will never be more than a backup. What I hate about AJ is that he has zero court vision, and when Jamaal gets the Pacers on a role and are on their way to a blowout, AJ comes in, and all the momentum completely shifts and we're back into a drag it out, under 5 point victory/loss game. AJ is more of a shooting guard, and his stock is outragously high for his actual game, so if any deal happens, I hope to god that AJ is on his way somewhere else.

Jonathan Bender. I said in another thread that we should cut Bender... with a knife! I stand by it. Bender makes me wanna pull my hair out. Look up 'vagina' in the dictionairy, and I'm sure it'll say something about Bender. Every year, I think, Bender could break out and we'll be great. And every year, he gets hurt without being touched. If his knee is this bad, why not opperate? Why not put him under the knife before someone else does it without a doctor's license? It's aggrivating to think that we didn't re-sign Brad cuz he wanted to much money, and yet this punk who has done nothing but sit on the bench and waste all our time. DOWN WITH BENDER! DOWN WITH BENDER!

Austin Croshere. I think Croshere may be cut, but if he isn't, he should be. Croshere has one or two good games in a spand of 10. We can finally drop the, 'Isiah was racist against Austin' chant, seeing as Rick doesn't like playing him either. Hopefully, Croshere won't be here next season.

James Jones. Everyone here loves James Jones. Hurrah for James Jones. Well I don't. JJ to me, is overrated by Indiana Pacers fans. (except for me) JJ lacks any confidence at all, doesn't shoot that well from the field, and I feel he's only 'average' on defense.

John Edwards... will be not employed by the Pacers.

Eddie Gill. The best scoring pg we have. Also the worst defender we have. Gill is expendable, and even cutable. I don't think he'll ever have a defined role on this team with his defensive retardedness.

Scot Pollard... Yeah.... His contract is up next offseason, so he'll definetly be used in a trade. I like Scot more than I did last season, but I still dislike him to the extreme. Bah!

As for Danny Granger. I have yet to form an opinion of Danny, although I'm sure he'll be very good and I'll have nothing but good things to say of him. But I'm not going to jump the gun and get all horny about him until I see him play and see if he's durable, mentally strong, and will play the all-around game like I'm told he can.

Ok, what's the point of my rant? Only a few players like, O'neal, Jackson, Artest, Tinsley, Foster, are peices that should be kept. This team needs to be changed and if you guys keep saying, 'I'm fine with the team the way it is' your basically admitting that you don't want a championship. This team can't win a championship the way it is now, or atleast, I'm very much not on board with their chances.

I'd also like to say that I hope Chris Thomas makes this team. I think he's a fun player that would be a fan favorite.

Just my thoughts.. hate them or love them. Regardless, I still love you.

Re: Enough with the 'Lets keep this team the same!' Crap!

This years team really isn't "the same" anyways. We have never seen Ron, Jack, Tins, and JO all in the starting lineup together for an extended period of time. Personally I think we will be the team to beat next year because were due for some breaks and I'm VERY confident we will stay healthy this year. If were going to change anything up, I'd get rid of Rick if things go sour this year. We got the talent here to do special things.

Re: Enough with the 'Lets keep this team the same!' Crap!

Well your face is so stupid that it gave my computer calculator problems.

Chill out, Fig. You've been a different poster around here lately, and it hasn't been pretty.

Anyway, back to the thread, this is NOT the same team as last year. We are losing a 39-year-old SG, moving our former SF back to his natural position, and GAINING a defensive player of the year, and a back-up at his position who is capable of having an immediate impact on the team. Throw in a potentially-healthy Bender and this team is quite a bit different from the one we saw last year. Not to mention a full year with DD (hopefully).

A LOT of people seem to forget that this team looked like a title contender before the brawl last year.

Re: Enough with the 'Lets keep this team the same!' Crap!

I think that if the team isn't in first place at mid season then we need to make a trade or two. As for right now I think were in good shape, we are a different team than we were last year. JT & JO need to stay healthy, and you never know what a healthy JB will bring, even though Reg has a better chance of comming back for another 18 seasons than JB being healthy. Not to mention Ronnie, harrison, granger. Another thing is that our starters need to stay healthy and jel together. They never had a chance to play an extended peroid of time together. I think we need to give this team a chance but if it doesn't work then we can make a move.

Re: Enough with the 'Lets keep this team the same!' Crap!

You are perfectly happy with Foster and Freddie (as am I), stating that they are key reserves. You are very accepting of their backup roles.

Yet AJ, who is considered by most to be one of the best backup PGs in the league, gets knocked because "he will never be more than a backup".

Well, first of all, he was never intended to be anything more than a backup. However, when he started last season while Tinsley was out, his contributions we a significant part of the team's success. I'm very pleased with what AJ brings... not every PG is an excellent distributor of the ball, some just happen to be stronger in other areas.

Try to remember that it is the total contribution that a player brings to the floor. His ability to pass, his ability to shoot, his ability to defend, his ability to facilitate his teammates....

I would totally agree with you had you said that Tinsley's distribution abilities are exactly what the Pacers need at PG. That's a very true statement because we have so many decent offensive players in our starting lineup that all we need offensively from our PG is the ability to push the ball when necessary, limit the mistakes and especially to distribute the ball.

But Tinsley is not exactly the PG we need on this team. He is lacking in some very important aspects. His perimeter shooting is extremely inconsistent, there is some concern that he "breaks down" as the season wears on, he is subject to being mentally taken out of his game and his defensive abilities are adequate in his better defensive games.

What I'm hoping to see fron Tinsley is an improvement in all of these areas. If we don't get it, the Pacers can function very well without him. Both Jackson and Artest can distribute the ball fairly well, and Jermaine is improving in his passing abilities year after year. If he is not able to make the progress we need, I then would trade him for a defensive guru at PG who is able to hit an occassional shot and who has passing abilities on the order of AJ's or better.

Re: Enough with the 'Lets keep this team the same!' Crap!

You say we need a PG to distribute the ball. Then you knock Tinsley because he struggles somewhat on shooting. YOu do realize that that Makes ZERO sense. Besides Tinsley has improved his shooting the last 2 seasons. No reason to believe he won't again.

Re: Enough with the 'Lets keep this team the same!' Crap!

You say we need a PG to distribute the ball. Then you knock Tinsley because he struggles somewhat on shooting. YOu do realize that that Makes ZERO sense. Besides Tinsley has improved his shooting the last 2 seasons. No reason to believe he won't again.

No. I'm saying that this team needs a starting PG who is able to distribute the ball, but that ability is not the minimum requirement that I would establish for the PG of this team.

We've had a good view of what happens to this team offensively when it lacks consistent perimeter shooting threats, or in the case of Reggie, has a perimeter shooter who is not taking his share of shots. The offense bogs down, it becomes more difficult for Jermaine, and we get into a two man passing game between our PG and Jermaine.

Tinsley has improved his perimeter shot. But he is by no means a consistent perimeter shooter.... yet.

D4G you seem to think that distribution and other skills are mutually exclusive from one another. Why don't you tell that to Payton or Wade or Billups or Nash or Kidd or Parker or....

Why can't we have a PG who has several abilities are rolled into one? Just like I have suggested.

Re: Enough with the 'Lets keep this team the same!' Crap!

Lets see, Tinsley is a first rate passer, he's developed into a very effective penetrator which I didn't think he had in him, and his shooting is much improved. He'll never have the foot speed to be a great defender, but he tries.
Seems like at least 2 "very goods" 1 "adequate" and one "marginal". What other "several abilities" are you refering to?

Re: Enough with the 'Lets keep this team the same!' Crap!

Shade, I forgot to put up my, 'smiley', so I was accidentally taken seriously.

I HATE, HATE, HATE Anthony Johnson. I honestly feel he is one of the worst passers and ball handelers we've ever had. I would much rather have Freddie bring the ball down, and I'm a severe anti-Fred Jones running the point.

My posts will never be over with everyone. I have many points that differ from anyone, and no one can say that they 100% agree with me, because I'm different. I have a different perspective. I demand much more from a pg, then I do any other position. And while AJ had his most productive season as a pg last season, I don't see him has a 'championship' caliber pg. I hope we trade him.

Re: Enough with the 'Lets keep this team the same!' Crap!

Lets see, Tinsley is a first rate passer, he's developed into a very effective penetrator which I didn't think he had in him, and his shooting is much improved. He'll never have the foot speed to be a great defender, but he tries.
Seems like at least 2 "very goods" 1 "adequate" and one "marginal". What other "several abilities" are you refering to?

First of all, I apologize to Fig for getting his thread off-target from looking at a "general" question of whether to keep the team intact to honing in on one single player or a single position.fficeffice" />>>

But I will continue and try to answer your questions.>>

I agree Tinsley is a first rate passer. Without ranking, I'd say he might be a top 5 in this regard.>>

I would also agree that Tinsley is an effective penetrator, but I don't know that I'd call him a very "efficient" penetrator. To go that far would imply that such pursuits culminate in either Tinsley or a teammate “finishing” a pretty high percentage of the time. And I don’t necessarily believe that is the case.>>

Another ability that has not been mentioned is Tinsley’s ability to post his defender. Although PGs don’t often have that opportunity, with his strength Tinsley is a decent post player.>>

Even with improvement, I can’t give Tinsley an “adequate” with regards to his perimeter shooting. He’s just far too inconsistent.>>

Defensively, I agree that Tinsley is “marginal”. Folks can argue that he gets more than his share of steals, but he also gives up more penetration into the lane than any other perimeter player we’ve had since Mark Jackson… and maybe Jonathan Bender. Ron’s return should help cover for him.>>

I’d also appreciate a greater ability to remain physically healthy. I’ve yet to see an excellent passer win a game for his team when he is dressed in street clothes at the end of the bench.>>

I believe that Tinsley has removed a lot of the street ball from his game. To many that is a derogatory term, but for me that means that he has minimized his number of high-risk passes. But I still question his mental toughness… and that gets into a little bit of what a fundamentalist might call street-ball as well. There’s a lot of 1-on-1 crap that goes on in all playground pick-up games… one player trying to show up another in response to getting burned himself. Tinsley engages in this behavior far too often in critical points in games. We need a Q4 PG that we can trust, and so far, all Tinsley’s opponent has to do is to burn him a couple of times and talk trash in his ear. Under such circumstances, Tinsley often loses focus and is far too willing to engage in a 1-on-1 game, almost always resulting in harming the team.

Many talk about AJ losing leads while playing with the second unit. But what about Tinsley losing leads, and even costing us games, when he indulges in such stupid behavior?>>

Bottom line is, every position on the floor is played by a player who has faults. If you are lucky, other players on the floor help to cover those faults. Hopefully, Ron’s presence will help cover for some of Tinsley’s shortcomings.

I agree with your implication that it is rare to have a PG (or any player for that matter) that will satisfy you in all aspects. My general requirements for my starting PG would be that he be able to play 30 minutes or more game after game, that his team scores when he is on the floor, and that he does not actually hurt his team in its ability to prevent the other team from scoring.>>

I honestly believe that Tinsley will be able to provide all of these services. He just doesn’t do it yet. That’s why I would like to see some significant improvement.>>

What I ask of my backup PG is that he does these same things, but I accept that he will do so to a lesser degree. The backup PG will have a few more holes in his game. Because he often plays with non-starters, his overall influence on the team’s overall success is more difficult to gauge than the starting PG’s.>>

I also accept the fact that the backup PG is more likely to be “specialized” in certain talents than the starting PG, who should be better rounded. I think that is why you are more likely to see a backup PG who can defend very well, can hit the shot when called upon, does not make many mistakes, but is not necessarily a good distributor of the basketball. Something like AJ.>>

AJ is a better-rounded player than Tinsley. However, the offensive abilities of our other starters is served better by a player that excels at distributing the ball.

But let’s not go as far as saying Tinsley is the perfect starter for the team. There are many others in the league, although perhaps not available, who would provide a much better fit than Tinsley.

--------

On a side note.... foretaz.... see what influence you have on others. I felt compelled to challenge you for longest, most wordy post.

Re: Enough with the 'Lets keep this team the same!' Crap!

Well, I think that I have taken one of the most adament stands on the 'same team' issue, but it's not the same team as many have pointed out.

I agree with Fig's whole SJax being expendable, he is a very attractive prospect for other teams, I still want to keep him though. I also agree that his desicion making is not the best, but all in all I love the guy.

I don't agree with the JJ statement. I know that there is a whole JJ love vibe on the forum, and there is a reason for that, this guy has soooooooooooo much potential, looking at him is like a possible reincarnation of Reggie, which would make anyone on here salivate.

I still love Austin Croshere, can't help it.

I really really really like Scot Pollard the person and the player, but you know that he's going to be used in a trade.

Most know my feelings about JB , so no need to go there and get ranted on again.

I am similar to Peck with DD, I just love this guy, I'll never stop. I want Dale to finish out here so he can get the good bye from the Indiana fans, because this is probably the only place he'll get it.

I think that Fig totally totally underrated AJ, I think he did great in the playoffs.

Life without water is tough, life without air is hard,life with one leg only is wobbly, Life without Reggie Miller, is impossible.

Re: Enough with the 'Lets keep this team the same!' Crap!

I think that Fig totally totally underrated AJ, I think he did great in the playoffs.

What is so great about AJ? He has a good mid-range j, but that's just about it. He can't pass, can't dribble. He's a decent defender, but nothing special. I don't know what is up with all the AJ love, but I think he just plain SUCKS!

Re: Enough with the 'Lets keep this team the same!' Crap!

If he wasnt leading this team so good after the all-star break we wouldnt have even made the playoffs.

Leading the team?! You mean the, 'find who's hot and give them the ball' offense? AJ did about as good as any backup given a starters job would have. Face it, he's overrated by us Pacers fan like half the team is. AJ is only a decent backup and I don't think he does the team any favors on the offensive end of the floor.

Re: Enough with the 'Lets keep this team the same!' Crap!

Leading the team?! You mean the, 'find who's hot and give them the ball' offense? AJ did about as good as any backup given a starters job would have. Face it, he's overrated by us Pacers fan like half the team is. AJ is only a decent backup and I don't think he does the team any favors on the offensive end of the floor.

I think FIg is BoB Kravitz....... Just my opinion take it or leave it but i am
still posting.

Re: Enough with the 'Lets keep this team the same!' Crap!

Tinsley is the perfect point gaurd for this team and AJ is a great back up. The problem is come play-off time AJ has to log starters minutes because Tins cannot stay healthy. This forces the team to address the pg position.