Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 9:45 pmPosts: 26Location: United States of America

Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 8:49 pm

Derigin wrote:

Witcher wrote:

Knjaz_Milos wrote:

Noisenoir wrote:

What I found rather ironic is the people of Kosovo celebrate their independance waving american and albanian flags..??..

Shows their real goal: one great Albania, or aka a Mafia-rogue state in the middle of Europe.Something in the interest of the US: they can have a military base there, and the Albanians continue to destabilize Europe with their drugs/arms/people-trafficking and the development of a extremist Muslim-state inside Europe.

Hence the US flags...

I am wondering if the Western world would also applaud an independent Hawaii, Scotland, Kurdistan or Basque Country, to only name a few??

Not to speak about the fact, that the Serbians in Northern Kosovo will never recognize the Albanian central government. You have other potential Palestina there.

It would be interesting to watch, if all the Mexicans living in California would crete and uprising to show their true heritage and to demand renewed sepearation from the U.S.A. and union with Mexico for historical reasons.

If the United States committed war crimes and ethnic cleansing of those Mexicans, and say the United States was a weak and unpopular power, than it's more than likely that the major powers in the world would be more willing to allow a separation. The reality with that example is that the United States is a strong sovereign power, and if there would be war crimes they would be hidden, masked to save face, or condemned with little power to do anything about it. The American people may lose faith in their government, but the state wouldn't fail.

In many way, it's a number of conditions which separate Kosovo's separation from those of other secessionist movements. Firstly, Yugoslavia had been an unpopular and weak state, compared to the rest of the world. Secessionist movements had already occurred. Throughout Yugoslavia there had been violence, and - despite a decent army - the government chose policies that were not well received by the rest of the world.

Secondly, because of how close Yugoslavia is to the rest of Europe, and of historical precedent in previous wars, any violence in Yugoslavia is a concern to the rest of Europe - especially given the situation after the fall of the Soviet Union. NATO would've been called in regardless. If this had been Africa, few governments would do anything about it. If this had been in the heart of Western Europe, North America or South America, the secessionist movement would've been squashed or universally condemned. More than likely, any violence would be considered terrorism, and the movements would be more inclined to be peaceful. The Balkans, being on the borderline of Europe, did not have that option. There were concerns that violence would spread outwards towards its neighboring weak states and into the rest of Europe.

Lastly, and most importantly, Yugoslavia used violence, war crimes and to a degree ethnic cleansing to try to solve the problem. Serbia now must contend with the blemish of such acts. Given the prior conditions, it's not tolerated. It's this which outweighs all historical or religious importance that Kosovo may have for Serbia. It's also what tends to separate most other secessionist movements (although, in strong states with high popularity there are cases of this, but they're usually downplayed for the sake of stability). It's for this reason, regardless if Russia pouts and other states are concerned, that an independent Kosovo is a reality. The West could not tolerate allowing Kosovo back into Serbia, especially given the majority (92%) do not want that. Nor would it necessarily be desired to have Kosovo and Albania 'formally' combine. Doing so would suggest the West wants to (publicly?) direct the sovereignty of other states.

As for the 4% of leftover Serbs. Despite many of them being poor and old, what will more likely happen is that North Kosovo will gain some autonomy within the state of Kosovo. The other majority enclave of Serbs, Štrpce, would more than likely be overrun by Albanians in little time.

You obviously don't know much about Yugoslavian history and especially about its position during the Cold War when it was not aligned with the Eastern Powers. Your arguement is pretty weak unless it concerns post 1990 Yugoslavia, which is Serbia and not real Yugoslavia...

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Noktorn wrote:

One time I was listening to Gorgoroth and then the police beat me for being black, so I guess that sort of counts.

The ethnic Albanians were correct to do so on the grounds of ethnic self-determination. I would like to see this happen many more times throughout the world (and especially the US).

Albanians have already their own ethnical national state - Albania. The principle of self-determination was always applied in the past to exclude minorities living in an already established state with different majority nations. In the past, those were mainly African states, where already some tribal areas of control, tribal chiefs rule or kingdoms existed, before they were colonized by Europeans. And it was always by the will of ethnically homegenous or closely related inhabitants living on this area.
You would like to see the Mexican uprising in California??

The ethnic Albanians were correct to do so on the grounds of ethnic self-determination. I would like to see this happen many more times throughout the world (and especially the US).

Albanians have already their own ethnical national state - Albania. The principle of self-determination was always applied in the past to exclude minorities living in an already established state with different majority nations. In the past, those were mainly African states, where already some tribal areas of control, tribal chiefs rule or kingdoms existed, before they were colonized by Europeans. And it was always by the will of ethnically homegenous or closely related inhabitants living on this area.You would like to see the Mexican uprising in California??

He'd like to see an independent Texas basically.

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Panopticon at Flag Burner, Torch Bearer wrote:

Tonight all flags must burn in place of steeples. Autonomy must return to the hands of the people!

I'm afraid the Balkans will go through much turmoil in the days to come and the N.A.T.O. expansion the U.S. promotes to include Albania, Kosovo and F.Y.R.O.M. will have serious impact to the region's stability and neighboring relations.

Sensitive theme, not pick on anyone, these are facts. Neither Slovakia, neither Romania (neither the rest of the winners) can't accept the fact, that they got the hungarians with those lands as well, and anyhow hard those hungarophobe governments are trying to eliminate them, and rewrite the history, it won't works.

Man, first of all, you won't get your territories back unless my country bears a civil war. Then, your country won't disappear if you don't get those territories back. Third, your minorities have no problem. They have the opportunity to learn Hungarian as well, unlike the Romanian minority who was forced during Austro-Hungarian days to learn only Hungarian, tell their prayers in Hungarian and so on.
Eh, guess I'll just stick to what mors_gloria said. The best for us would be that we get along. I'm not guilty for what governments decide, and neither are you, so it gets useless to argue over hundreds of years.

Regarding Kosovo, I'm wondering what this Medvedev guy will have to say about Kosovo. Will he be diriged by Putin and maybe try to heat things up even more?

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invoked wrote:

Remember kids, retardation exists across all races, nationalities, and universities!

What I found rather ironic is the people of Kosovo celebrate their independance waving american and albanian flags..??..

Shows their real goal: one great Albania, or aka a Mafia-rogue state in the middle of Europe.Something in the interest of the US: they can have a military base there, and the Albanians continue to destabilize Europe with their drugs/arms/people-trafficking and the development of a extremist Muslim-state inside Europe.

Hence the US flags...

I am wondering if the Western world would also applaud an independent Hawaii, Scotland, Kurdistan or Basque Country, to only name a few??

Well we will just have to see what will happen. Either what you said will happen or this will turn out to be something else. Who knows, and do not say you do because you cannot see into the future.

Um, Hawaii has been a United State since the presidency of Dwight David Eisenhower. Why would we let it go? A more reasonable claim would be "why not let Vermont be independent?" because they are a socialist republic and want nothing to do with the United States. Scotland, well the Crown must look differently I guess.

People have been campaigning both peacefully and violently for a Basque Country for probably centuries. It's not happening any time soon.

Kurdistan should happen though. It's the only stable part of Iraq and Iran doesn't give a shit about them so they should just let them be. Though you cannot blame those Turks for fighting back, considering the PKK routinely go out of their way to massacre thousands of innocent Turks yearly.

You obviously don't know much about Yugoslavian history and especially about its position during the Cold War when it was not aligned with the Eastern Powers. Your arguement is pretty weak unless it concerns post 1990 Yugoslavia, which is Serbia and not real Yugoslavia...

The Yugoslavia I'm referring to is, up to recently, modern Yugoslavia. It is inevitably that Yugoslavia - the one that existed from the 80s onwards - which matters in this issue more than any historical variants. This is the variant in which many 'western' perceptions have been formed around.

*Stay on topic. Threads dealing with complex subjects are apt to spark several different strains of discussion, and the focus of a thread may shift from one point to another over time. This is natural and acceptable. However, picking up and perpetuating discussion of a largely unrelated topic, such as a conversation about scuba gear or leisure diving in the midst of a thread about a disastrous flood, will likely be considered inappropriate. Harmless occurrences will likely only result in split threads, but constant "threadjacking" habits may result in harsher consequences.