Box jounts

I didn t get much of a response so I am assuming there is little if any evidence but I ll try again. Does anyone know of any examples of the medieval use of

Message 1 of 14
, Aug 11, 2013

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I didn't get much of a response so I am assuming there is little if any
evidence but I'll try again. Does anyone know of any examples of the
medieval use of finger joints also called box or knuckle joints.

bsrlee

It is one of those grey areas to me, there is evidence in the form of surviving examples of the Roman use of both full dovetails in architectual pieces

Message 2 of 14
, Aug 11, 2013

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It is one of those 'grey' areas to me, there is evidence in the form of
surviving examples of the Roman use of both full dovetails in
architectual pieces (London waterfront)and something that is half a
dovetail and half a box joint - it has one side of the pin straight and
the other side of the pin is angled, with all the fingers from both
sides being equal as in a 'finger' or 'box' joint - in smaller boxes
(Rhine ship wreck and others).

There is a passing mention of a 'Viking','dovetailed box' in the wooden
objects volume York Archeology reports, now available online as a .pdf,
but I haven't found any illustrations of the original piece (it is not
from York).

After that it is pretty much straight on (with a big gap in evidence and
literature) to variously proportioned dovetail joints as we know them
today, with the straight sided, evenly spaced 'finger' joints not
appearing until the general use of machine tools which made them
relatively easy to manufacture. What is not dovetailed seems to be
either some sort of nailed and/or strapped butt/mitre joint
(Swallowcliffe Down box has mitred corners with narrow brass-oid straps
in grooves running around the corners and nailed on) or a variation on
draw bored mortise and tennon joints (clamp fronted chests).

Unfortunately most Archeologists are not woodworkers, so their
terminology if often imprecise - to a non woodworker a finger joint and
a dovetail are just the same thing, and if your spell checker refuses to
accept 'dovetail' then finger joint is just as good, and most of your
audience won't know the difference.

regards
Brusi of Orkney
Rowany/Lochac

On 11-Aug-13 5:13 PM, Jerry Harder wrote:
> I didn't get much of a response so I am assuming there is little if any
> evidence but I'll try again. Does anyone know of any examples of the
> medieval use of finger joints also called box or knuckle joints.
>
>
>

Jeff

The answer is that they didn t use box joints until the modern period - 20th century, when glues became stable enough to hold the jount together, without the

Message 3 of 14
, Aug 11, 2013

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The answer is that they didn't use box joints until the modern period - 20th century, when glues became stable enough to hold the jount together, without the mechanical help of the dovetail structuer. So, no, there is no evidence to use it for anything in the periods covered by the SCA.

Sorry

--- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Harder <geraldgoodwine@...> wrote:
>
> I didn't get much of a response so I am assuming there is little if any
> evidence but I'll try again. Does anyone know of any examples of the
> medieval use of finger joints also called box or knuckle joints.
>

Peter Ellison

Personally I have not seen this type of joint until machines started to make them. Working by hand they are no less effort than dove tails, since your going to

Message 4 of 14
, Aug 11, 2013

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Personally I have not seen this type of joint until machines started to make them.

Working by hand they are no less effort than dove tails, since your going to transfer the marks based cutting the first one you might as well angle the cuts so that even if the glue fails the joint will hold together.

Frame and panel, the frame is mortice and tenon joined with floating panels. (think door panels)

Depending on region and application dovetailed joints. (seem to be less common but they show up in strange places)

If your going to make a bunch of boxes and paint them it does not really matter since paint will cover the joint. If your doing it by hand and you have never made dove tails my suggestion is "just do it" it is not as hard and complicated as people make it out.

I didn't get much of a response so I am assuming there is little if any
evidence but I'll try again. Does anyone know of any examples of the
medieval use of finger joints also called box or knuckle joints.

Vels inn Viggladi

Serendipitously, I was doing a bit of digging on Cassone just now and came across this : http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O81200/cassone-unknown/ Enlarge the

Howdy! ... I don t agree with your interpretation. I m not happy with the view of the end, but what I see seems consistent with dovetails. A better shot of the

Message 6 of 14
, Aug 11, 2013

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Howdy!

On Sun, Aug 11, 2013 at 1:39 PM, Vels inn Viggladi <velsthe1@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Serendipitously, I was doing a bit of digging on Cassone just now and came
> across this : http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O81200/cassone-unknown/
> Enlarge the first image and the box joint is ridiculously evident.
> The piece is from Tuscany, circa 1430-1460. It's a good sized chest.

I don't agree with your interpretation. I'm not happy with the view of the end,
but what I see seems consistent with dovetails. A better shot of the end
should clarify the question.

Howdy! ... In fact, when I actually read their description, they clearly state that the sides are dovetailed into the ends, although not in the usual

Message 7 of 14
, Aug 11, 2013

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Howdy!

On Sun, Aug 11, 2013 at 1:39 PM, Vels inn Viggladi <velsthe1@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Serendipitously, I was doing a bit of digging on Cassone just now and came
> across this : http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O81200/cassone-unknown/
> Enlarge the first image and the box joint is ridiculously evident.
> The piece is from Tuscany, circa 1430-1460. It's a good sized chest.
>
In fact, when I actually read their description, they clearly state
that the sides
are dovetailed into the ends, although not in the usual configuration that keeps
the ends from popping off.

... Oh yeah... and looks sloppier than my first attempt. Shoulda looked through the rest of the images on that one. -V

Message 8 of 14
, Aug 11, 2013

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> > I don't agree with your interpretation. I'm not happy with the view of the end,> but what I see seems consistent with dovetails. A better shot of the end> should clarify the question.> > yours,> Herveus

Oh yeah... and looks sloppier than my first attempt. <grin> Shoulda looked through the rest of the images on that one.

-V

Hall, Hayward

If you go a few images in, the side shot shows they are dovetails. :( Cool box though. From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com

That s what I am finding but it had nothing to do with glue. I have been using medieval glue for years and they work fine.

Message 10 of 14
, Aug 13, 2013

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That's what I am finding but it had
nothing to do with glue. I have been using medieval glue for
years and they work fine.

On 8/11/2013 8:28 AM, Jeff wrote:

The answer is that they didn't use box joints until the
modern period - 20th century, when glues became stable
enough to hold the jount together, without the mechanical
help of the dovetail structuer. So, no, there is no
evidence to use it for anything in the periods covered by
the SCA.

Sorry

--- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com,
Jerry Harder <geraldgoodwine@...> wrote:
>
> I didn't get much of a response so I am assuming
there is little if any
> evidence but I'll try again. Does anyone know of any
examples of the
> medieval use of finger joints also called box or
knuckle joints.
>

Jerry Harder

Just finished the just do it a couple of days ago. Working on a lock design now before putting the box together.

Message 11 of 14
, Aug 13, 2013

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Just finished the just do it a couple
of days ago. Working on a lock design now before putting the box
together.

On 8/11/2013 9:37 AM, Peter Ellison wrote:

Personally I have not seen this type of joint
until machines started to make them.

Working by hand they are no less effort than dove
tails, since your going to transfer the marks
based cutting the first one you might as well
angle the cuts so that even if the glue fails the
joint will hold together.

Frame and panel, the frame is mortice and tenon joined
with floating panels. (think door panels)

Depending on region and application dovetailed joints.
(seem to be less common but they show up in strange
places)

If your going to make a bunch of boxes and paint them
it does not really matter since paint will cover the
joint. If your doing it by hand and you have never made
dove tails my suggestion is "just do it" it is not as
hard and complicated as people make it out.

I didn't get much of a response so I am
assuming there is little if any
evidence but I'll try again. Does anyone
know of any examples of the
medieval use of finger joints also called
box or knuckle joints.

Jerry Harder

Im not convinced. I think the front panel may have the pins and the sides have the dovetails. The view of the side is not really clear enough to tell.

Message 12 of 14
, Aug 13, 2013

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Im not convinced. I think the front
panel may have the pins and the sides have the dovetails. The
view of the side is not really clear enough to tell.