MARSHALL: Now, you got interested in, uh, well, it was just a natural interest,

uh, you, you, you, when you got here, you got interested in the history of Ypsilanti.

ROACH: Well, I didn’t get interested in history, uh, when I first came.

MARSHALL: Mm.

ROACH: I got interested in, in history was when I have, uh, bought, before I

bought the—I discovered something, after I bought this [piano] on the place, I9:00discovered. Well, I, aw, I was working with some lawyers, a lawyer,

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

ROACH: And uh, then, I, y’know, I didn’t, when I bought my place, I

didn’t have no lawyer to help finish, I just paid them off. I don’t meanwhen I [trying] when I first bought it. Uh, the real estate man, that’s all Ihad, and the, the people that at real estate, well, they had a letter written,and the people, two people I bought it from,

MARSHALL: Uh-huh.

ROACH: Two ladies. So, after that, anyway, [the final was wrecked] for

these—this lawyer, I thought I’d ask him now because I didn’t have nolawyer, I asked him, think after I after I think everything, I asked him, doyou think everything will be all right, ’cause I didn’t have a lawyer when Ibought the place. When I bought the place, what I asked him then, do you want tosee the abstract, do you want to see the abstract, not the abstract but thecontract, so I let him see the contract, when he—when I let him see thecontract, he tell a lot of dirt. He, he, he discovered what the contract was10:00saying. Then I had told him about, [uh, a second,] I told him how, let’s see,I told him about the place, buying the place. But anyway, he got to [ramming],searching, you know, he found a lot of problems. What it was, I have my originaldeed and, uh, abstract, was 25,000 acres, [hot pat and a plot].

MARSHALL: Oh yeah.

ROACH: So he got to [ramming and milling], you know, seeking, I, searching, you know,

MARSHALL: Uh-huh.

ROACH: searching everything, all those, I had a copy, I had an old original

deed, had a copy, what all the whole state [I’m] probably, 25,000 acres.

MARSHALL: Uh-huh, uh-huh.

ROACH: 25,000 acres. And that’s how he got to searching, so,

MARSHALL: Uh-huh.

ROACH: trying to find—he told a lot of dirt, too.

MARSHALL: Uh-huh.

ROACH: Then he got Vanzetti helping, dig up more dirt.

MARSHALL: I see.

ROACH: It’s a shame what he done, but I don’t know what a, think I reckon

it work out all right for him or not, I don’t know. Anyway, uh…after I haddiscovered what is happening, I don’t know why, God showed a lot of things. I,I don’t mean no harm,

MARSHALL: Uh-huh.

ROACH: but a lot of things was shown at me and, and just, it’s the truth, he

ROACH: So her daughter was setting up [this heart]. She was setting up this for

her and her sisters.

MARSHALL: Uh-huh.

ROACH: And so, she was [the one] with sending primary receipts for payments and

everything. And signed a contract, who I had to sign each time. The contract.Every time I make a payment,

MARSHALL: Yeah.

ROACH: she would sign the contract. And so, anyway, uh, I told her, she asked

me before [too it in on] times what did I want. I said, well, I want a warranteedeed. I want a warrantee deed and all the original papers. I told her that. Andshe know I told her that.

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

ROACH: I want all the original papers. So she wanted to find out before I

close, to see what I wanted. And I told her what I wanted. So when the time cometo close, I thought I’d get a lawyer. She said, well, my, I would get thepapers to the—my lawyer, my lawyer will give them to you, your lawyer. Talkingabout me.

MARSHALL: Uh-huh.

ROACH: I said, OK, that’s, y’know, that’s what I expect.

MARSHALL: Yeah.

ROACH: That’s what you get a lawyer for, to help you.

MARSHALL: Yeah.

ROACH: Instead of work against you. I’d have never have got one, if I knew he

work against me.

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

ROACH: And so, so when time come, he’s, I went out to see Van’s daddy. So

13:00he was…so he asked me, I don’t know exactly what, I got to, I don’t, well,then I got this deed again, but I got a lot of things written down, what I saidand everything, but I have to find them.

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

ROACH: I don’t [have witness more], I think I put them in a safe place,

MARSHALL: Uh-huh.

ROACH: call myself safe place,

MARSHALL: Uh-huh.

ROACH: have to get them, [call them out]. And so, anyway, he, uh, he told me, I

asked him a lot of questions, I said, now, I want to make sure that this, thesepapers are all right. I said I don’t want nothing against the place,

ROACH: So he told me to go [file it this, by God, here] look, it don’t look

like it here.

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

ROACH: But he told me everything’s paid, and everything’s all right, he

told me. He made me so many promises. And not that you could sue him for breachof promises.

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

ROACH: He really done it.

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

ROACH: And, uh, but if my kids every agree[ment], that they don’t go in, get

and fool with it,

MARSHALL: Uh-huh.

ROACH: they don’t want to spend no money.

MARSHALL: Yeah.

ROACH: So that’s why I haven’t done anything.

MARSHALL: Yeah.

ROACH: I tried to do something, but they don’t help me [sitting up here,

running to Floridas]. And so, anyway, even when he, uh, I told him, I wanted to,14:00I told him about original papers, and, from, the latest that he would give, shewould give to her lawyer, her lawyer would give them to him. So a time come, hehad to, abstr—I still wrote him an abstract, I didn’t think of the deed, theoriginal deed, at the time that I was talking to him about the paper.

MARSHALL: Uh-huh.

ROACH: So I told him, uh, I wanted the, original deed, I wanted the original

deed, so he had the original deed. I want you to see it, it was [opp toe septic],

MARSHALL: Uh-huh.

ROACH: oh, it was something, it was really something else.

MARSHALL: Mm.

ROACH: It was from the beginning, of 1823 up to 1957. And 1957, after that,

should have been all recorded, in 1974, in my name, y’know,

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

ROACH: a copy of the deed,

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

ROACH: but he didn’t do it.

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

ROACH: I thought I’d try to get him to do it, he never did do it.

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

ROACH: And so, so he—when I went back, he had the original deed there. So I

took and looked at it, he put the type of something, I can’t think of what-allit was he typed, I gotta read it [now and then]. [And then he typed up, what istyped up, so I got scared so] y’know, [was prepped] the abstract. I don’t15:00know where’s the abstract. So I didn’t have time before he got back, Ididn’t have time to look at everything, you know, ’cause it’s too thick,and so I got, I got the, the first deed and the second deed, and I saw a fewmore, but I can’t remember all of them.

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

ROACH: But I really got the dates of the, I remember the dates of the first

deed, and the second deed, that’s the main thing I wanted,

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

ROACH: ’cause it’s two which you want.

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

ROACH: And the first deed was, this land was given to Mr. Eric—Gabriel

Godfroy, in 1823, by the U.S. government, and uh, signed by James Madison,

MARSHALL: Oh yeah.

ROACH: in small writing, It was written, really written in his real

handwriting. 1823. So I think I got two of each one of them. Two of them. Ithink it was two of each one, so. Anyway, the next one, then Mr. [Beerdrum] soldhis land to Mr. A. B. Woodward.

MARSHALL: Oh yeah.

ROACH: You see, they got them, there that there Woodward, you see. Mr. Woodward

was the man that named the street.

MARSHALL: Yeah.

ROACH: He’s the one they sold the land to. Mr. A. B. Woodward. Woodward. And,

16:00uh, there was two days of those, I think it was two, ’course, why I can’tremember two, I think it was two, I know at least two, [at least it was those]and that was 18…that was, that’s, let me see, did I tell you the date of theother one?

MARSHALL: 1823.

ROACH: Yeah, I didn’t tell you the date [go], though.

MARSHALL: No.

ROACH: Uh, August the 3rd,

MARSHALL: August 3rd.

ROACH: 1823. And the date of the second one, September the 12th, 1825. That’s

two years’ difference. He just kept it—he just had the land two years, thenhe sold it to Mr. Woodward.

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

ROACH: And um, so those were the first two deeds. And then from all came on

down, those old people. Why I know the names of the old people.

MARSHALL: Yeah.

ROACH: They had those days, y’know. So, he wanted to give them my abstract,

but he kept my abstract. He probably gave—it was given to somebody. I feelthat. ’Cause, John Murphy, and Wine, the Wine, Mr. Wine was the lawyer I first had.

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

ROACH: That led the papers. He know all about it, you see. He probably checked

ROACH: And, so, um, the original abstract had [a may] two times, so last time,

oh, I remember the last time to get the abstract, thought he done, had did it,second time you know, last time do it, I make sure I do it, I thought I couldtrust the man. He’s working for me, I thought.

MARSHALL: Yeah.

ROACH: But he wasn’t.

MARSHALL: You mean you couldn’t get your deeds back, then?

ROACH: He didn’t give them back to me, he wouldn’t give them back to me. He

kept them and sell them, do what he want to, whether he let somebody [havethem], probably give them to somebody, so I think. I feel like it was. So Idon’t know.

MARSHALL: Well, what kinds of papers do you have?

ROACH: I wish you see what I got here. I got some, just a recent, some papers,

some old modern deed, not the old, old deed.

MARSHALL: Not the old deed.

ROACH: Not the old one, the first ones. The eight—1800s. I [got] none of the

1800s. They all came down I think nineteen-something,1940, I think, somethinglike that. And hurt me so bad, when I got home and checked the thing. I didn’twant—I shouldn’t have took it. But I thought—I told him, I said, I, I kind18:00of saying like I told you, [another like I], I said, that’s not the deed thatI had [in telling] that’s not the deed that I had [money on me to] abstractthat I had in my hand, the original abstract. He said, oh yes, I did, yes, well,I just had to tear it apart and do it, y’know, fix it over. ’Course, itwasn’t thick enough, and some of the papers had, was, some were turned, onewas turned bottom side up. He done it so quick I rushed out, said, why did ittake you so long to get these? He said, I’m done. And he, I guess he had itdone, he just—oh, it’s just a shame what he did, did what he done, it’s a shame.

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

ROACH: So I, I, I didn’t, I tried, I got to tell you something, lawyer, but I

never could get none to help. See though, they had this all planned.

MARSHALL: Yeah.

ROACH: Feel like this—whoever wanted these papers, had [onto] all the lawyer,

not [happening].

MARSHALL: Hm.

ROACH: I feel like. ’Cause they wouldn’t, wouldn’t do it, any of them.

MARSHALL: Ah.

ROACH: I even called a lady in Ann Arbor, she’s a [jury] now.

MARSHALL: Uh-huh.

ROACH: She says she won’t fool with it, y’know. So that’s why I

don’t—I really don’t have my pap—my original papers.

MARSHALL: Yeah, mm-hmm.

ROACH: So all I got is some junk to give. But I know what they done; I know

what was in there. I know, y’know, some of the deeds, y’know, I know that.And I told them that, at the county, I mean the City Hall out there, [I mish19:00think] out there, [an original].

MARSHALL: Now, you say now that, you say now that this was the beginning of your

ROACH: That’s the beginning of the history.

MARSHALL: interest in the hi-history. Started off in the history of your own place.

ROACH: Guess I got the thing about it, uh, I don’t have no thing about it, I

felt suspicious about something so I have, I, I wrote a special person too aboutit. So he told me what to do. He told me be sure to have my place recorded whenI pay for it at, at this, at the county.

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

ROACH: And so, I know he should know. He was a main person of the state, so

anyway. I did it. So I took on suspicion, I said now [say something, I play]I’m just going to try it—excuse me, [press thing gonna do] [GETS UP TO WALKAWAY] [TAPE RECORDER RESTARTED?] Something, somebody’s trying to do somebody,[or turn trying to go] I felt suspicion, you know?

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

ROACH: So anyway, I wrote this man and told him what do you all do? So he told

me what to do, and I paid for him to—see, I, one thing, Vanzetti gonna [miss]my, my abstract of [black] past, I wish I had tracked that back down, ’causesurely gonna give it to them,

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

ROACH: y’know, act like he should. You come hand me that little piece of

thing, I’m, oh, you can look at it, I’ll show it to you, what he got here.It’s that—it’s not the [really], not the old one, it’s just all some]20:00[most a resolution], stuff like that, y’know, mortgages, things in here. Wassuch a man, that’s a shame, [took a] map, had another piece of map in there,with a map drawn up in there.

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

ROACH: He had another piece of map, so it’s all right, it’s just tore but I

can keep it together. It’s just a shame, he got [nothing true], [got all, andthe last] the lady that, well, these two ladies [of patient all] he gotsomething, he got two, [just got something her, uh, her, is uh, whatchacallit]like number one

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

ROACH: He got, two sets of my maps. I read that and I say, I would definitely

have no this [police story] the truth. That’s wrong…[had I had I begin andgone in the truth] [wonder]21:00

MARSHALL: Y’know, I think, uh, this part here that deals with, uh, United

States to Gabriel Godfroy,

ROACH: Mm-hmm. That’s not right.

MARSHALL: This is typed.

ROACH: I know it’s not, it’s not true, either.

MARSHALL: Ah, the thing I wondered is who typed it, because they didn’t have

typewriters in 1823.

ROACH: Is that [the old one], or is that, is that [the old one]. Well, I tell

you, they didn’t have them in 1823, I tell you about that. Yeah, some of it,it’s been typed, it wasn’t, it wasn’t probably handwritten.

MARSHALL: Oh, it wasn’t originally, uh-hmm.

ROACH: It wasn’t handwritten, you know. It was original too, [or for we have

a] but it was, it was signed by, uh, that man, his handwriting,

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

ROACH: it was really signed, by his, what’s his name, James Madison?

MARSHALL: Yeah.

ROACH: That was his signature on there. They could have had some kind of

typewriter, because that sure was his signature.

MARSHALL: Yeah, well, this is the thing I was wondering, because this can’t

possibly be the original, because they didn’t have typewriters in 1823.

ROACH: Well, I mean, I’ve been there but sure, he [shows his hand, and]

signed it, and that’s the handwriting.

MARSHALL: Well, I mean, I’m, I’m so—but typewriters didn’t come until

about 1870. So everything—I’ve seen, I’ve seen, some, um, some, some deeds22:00going all the way back to 1823, but this one is, this one got me because it’s typed.

ROACH: No, I haven’t checked with him, but I, I had found, when I found out

where my deed was, um, I told, I went up to the museum, told the lady that. My[uh, these amazing] did you all [put it] I said that my deed is there, I got aprac—place right here and everything. Put an [apartment] in there.

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

ROACH: At the City Hall, at the—well, it was at the, name, I got the

[cross-written] name written down somewhere. Now I can’t think of the [howprize here].

MARSHALL: You mean the, the, where the museum is?

ROACH: Where the—no, yeah, where the, no, not—well, no, no, the house. I

24:00got that written down somewhere here. Where it’s [not normal brad in awe,it’s on my branding] You know the name of the houses down there, old houses?

MARSHALL: I don’t know them by name. I just know, I just know, um, the, the,

the, the museum is right next door to where the old City Hall was.

ROACH: I think I seen [I saw it in all these books]. I, thought [writing]

something wrong, I’m not sure, now I thought I saw that, in one of these books.

MARSHALL: Oh.

ROACH: Archives.

MARSHALL: Well, that would be the only thing I thought I’d have, because I

have seen some originals.

ROACH: Mm-hmm. I told her all this—

MARSHALL: And they are written.

ROACH: [I mean there are]. I told them—

MARSHALL: You see, all of these are typed.

ROACH: Well, that first one, now, this here, I remember little black print. It

was not, had,

MARSHALL: Yeah.

ROACH: It was not, it was not typewritten. I remember that.

MARSHALL: I just think that’s where it is, I suspect it’s down there at the museum.

to get it to somebody. And mister, I think mister, [Dad low go] mister, [misterain’t go back] I think. Hm. [Ain’t call it in]. Oh, gee. [oh, that statement25:00there, he must have a] lawyer in there.

MARSHALL: Oh, the lawyer, I don’t know the lawyer. I just know Miss [Dudly].

ROACH: Jean, what’s her name, Jean [Hart]? [I don’t, I think I can call her

hope I want to]. [May come too]. He had, he was their lawyer. I think he had, Ireally had that original abstract. Don’t think Vanzetti ever got his hands on[me]. That abstract [go on]. Deed.

MARSHALL: The deed.

ROACH: Vanzetti had the abstract.

MARSHALL: Yeah. Uh-huh, uh-huh.

ROACH: And so,

MARSHALL: Well, I would say, I would be willing to bet you that the original is

at the Historical Society.

ROACH: It probably is, yeah, it probably on down there. I tell you, I think

it’s somebody I think [vetted] a [forgiveness] for. And they think they’reselling land, or they probably think I made money, uh, what’s [her] name,this, uh, this uh, at the [mallah, at the] lawyer [Dallah] used to work for, Mr.Wines, his wife Nancy who came in, Murphy, John Murphy, he was, he was, I thinkhe was [African], [see, he said for some reason] he may have it, or he don’t,if he don’t have it, the Historical have, uh, Museum may have it.

MARSHALL: Uh-huh.

ROACH: [but remember he, I think they were one, they were one episode]. Anyway,

even though they try to sell all this land, y’know, make money from it,that’s what they did.26:00

MARSHALL: I don’t think they could do anything like that.

ROACH: Oh yes, yes, they done it.

MARSHALL: I don’t think they could do that.

ROACH: Yes, ’cause I know, uh,

MARSHALL: If your, where your deed

ROACH: No, I told them about it. See, all they’d get, [all that’s ready to

get me just is like] the house.

MARSHALL: Oh, I see.

ROACH: See, he ain’t got none of the rest of that at all.

MARSHALL: I see, yeah.

ROACH: Well, there may be two, maybe, uh, some acres, two, that’s right,

there’s some acres I think.

MARSHALL: Yeah, yeah, uh-huh.

ROACH: But there’s not 25, 25,000 acres.

MARSHALL: Yeah, uh-huh.

ROACH: Yeah, but this land—I read some history, [right, and it ran into old Howell],

MARSHALL: Oh yeah.

ROACH: Mm-hmm. And, uh, I thought I meant to ask you.

MARSHALL: Well, I guess the thing that I’m trying to get at now is, uh, when I

came in you was saying something about the history which had been written andwas so incorrect.

ROACH: That’s right.

MARSHALL: And I guess that’s that I’m trying to get after.

ROACH: That’s what I want, make sure you get it straight.

MARSHALL: I want to know,

ROACH: Make sure you get this straight.

MARSHALL: what, when you talk about the incorrect history,

ROACH: Mm-hmm.

MARSHALL: just what are you talking about?

ROACH: [Well,] I mean at the beginning first.

MARSHALL: OK. 1823?

ROACH: Yeah, 1820—and, and this is about this Wood—Mr. Woodruff, [said a]

MARSHALL: Maybe some of his descendants, but Woodward never lived in Ypsilanti.

He was a judge,

ROACH: That’s what they tell you-all.

MARSHALL: He was a judge, at the time, at this particular time, and he lived in Detroit.

ROACH: Detroit, yeah, Detroit.

MARSHALL: And he had a lot of land here,

ROACH: he lived in Detroit.

MARSHALL: because he was a speculator.

ROACH: How about I can hold all of those papers if he didn’t live in this house?

MARSHALL: He didn’t have to live here, to have, to have,

ROACH: Somebody, he he let somebody have it somebody lived here, those papers.

You see that? He let somebody have those papers. How would they know, how wouldwe know? You see? And another thing, you have been misled, so, people have beenmisled, that’s why I want to get the history straight.

MARSHALL: You—and then what you’re saying then,

ROACH: People have been misled.

MARSHALL: is that you’re saying that Woodward lived here in Ypsilanti.

ROACH: Woodward, [I really] I, I, I don’t know, I just, I just feel like

Woodward lived here in Ypsilanti. This is, this—

MARSHALL: Well, how is he going to be a judge in Detroit if he live here in Ypsilanti?

ROACH: Well, this is, maybe this is, this could have been, uh, he could have

been judge before he came o—got this part of Ypsilanti. He could have been29:00judge there. It could have been after, too, but he could, he could live here andthen been judge there too, probably.

MARSHALL: No, he was the judge at the time Ypsilanti was established.

ROACH: He was the judge. But he [won’t] have the land.

MARSHALL: Well, then he came in here as a speculator and bought up a lot of

property, but he didn’t live here.

ROACH: Oh, he wasn’t, he wasn’t no spec—

MARSHALL: Because he was still a judge—yeah, he was a speculator.

ROACH: He was a speculator but still he owned this property.

MARSHALL: Yeah. Well, a speculator, that’s what a speculator does. He comes in

and buys up property.

ROACH: That’s what he done.

MARSHALL: And then he sold the property to other people.

ROACH: He didn’t sell it all. He didn’t sell it all at one time.

MARSHALL: He didn’t sell it all at one time, but he cut it up into lots.

ROACH: The paper said [that thinks he sold 12] yeah, 253 lots, it was deeded.

MARSHALL: Yeah, he sold a lot of lots

ROACH: Yeah, some probably never have sold.

MARSHALL: Yeah, probably so.

ROACH: Some never sold. You take this down here, what they’re talking about,

uh, French Claim, down here on West Michigan, down here on the right side?

MARSHALL: Yeah?

ROACH: That could not have been sold,

MARSHALL: Uh-huh.

ROACH: You see?

MARSHALL: Well, you may be right there.

ROACH: I, I, I know. Now, I know what the paper said, I’m looking right at

it, I’m reading it,

MARSHALL: Well—

ROACH: and this is the first deed, was little black print, and that man hand

was signed, because somebody asked me one day, Mister, uh, Doctor, oo, uh,Harris, I know he [done] seen it. He asked me, was it, that was a hand, a big30:00handwriting or a small one. I told him it’s a small one.

MARSHALL: Uh-huh.

ROACH: He didn’t say nothing. You know [though he had art all day and] he

didn’t say nothing. He think, I, want to make sure I seen enough. That’swhat he’s after, he said. See,

MARSHALL: Well, now,

ROACH: he could have, he could have [got you on] this land.

MARSHALL: OK. Now, you’re saying then, what you’re saying is wrong with the

history is that—

ROACH: The beginning is not correct. What I’m trying to tell you now. The

ROACH: Well, see, all those deeds was in that abstract I had, all those deeds.

[Whole bunch a papers someone a lend to] Mr. Woodruff, uh, oh, then I can’tthink of all the names now, all names. [Sticks]. [Bacambrey]. Oh, just a lot ofnames. There’s a lot of—I tell you, somebody el—else a, was a, should be abig important part in this, in this history, in this city. The Francois.

MARSHALL: Who?

ROACH: Francois should be.

MARSHALL: Yeah, but he didn’t come here until 1940.

ROACH: No, I—

MARSHALL: By nineteen thir—thirty

ROACH: What was, what was he from?

MARSHALL: Louisiana.

ROACH: Well, Francois name was in the, in, in some of the old deeds, Francois.

ROACH: I think that they, I think this man you’re talking about, he did have

a nickname. And then I wrote that thing, I wrote that down.

MARSHALL: That nickname, “Old Black Sam.”

ROACH: I think, I’m not sure,

MARSHALL: Now he and his family were the only Afro-Americans living here.

ROACH: I think that’s right.

MARSHALL: In the census of 1840. Because they did not live in the city.

ROACH: Yeah, they, they did, ’cause—

MARSHALL: When they came here, when Day started his shop, this other guy, I

can’t recall his name at the moment, but anyway, he tried to run Day out oftown. He went to his shop, jumped on him, fight him [soo], and then they wherehe was taken to court, where he had to pay a $10 fine and the damages that hedid to the man’s shop. And the second, the next Negro to come here came herein 1842. That was a family by the name of Morton, and there’s still some38:00Mortons around.

ROACH: I think I [ran off, sickle back to], I saw that somewhere, I saw that

somewhere, I…

MARSHALL: There’s a Morton in Ann Arbor. Well, that could have been something

that I wrote, I don’t know.

ROACH: No, I saw this in, no you didn’t write this, [or rass so] I can’t

remember. I wrote down a lot of stuff, I produced a lot of things.

MARSHALL: Well, see, I’ve been going back to the old census records, the old records,

ROACH: You been to Ann Arbor? [any going back?]

MARSHALL: Ann Arbor and Ypsilanti. I was in Ann Arbor yesterday.

ROACH: You [don’t even] let me see those groups?

MARSHALL: Hm?

ROACH: You going to let me see now [eighteenth throne, Traderick Brouk?]

MARSHALL: What?

ROACH: They won’t let me see it! I’d like [get] to have it. But I was

wondering, I have a letter [rough for the call] it was either they have it or[in the cola less].

MARSHALL: 1823.

ROACH: Mm-hmm.

MARSHALL: What book?

ROACH: Uh, census book. Census, I’m not, census, whatchacall?

MARSHALL: Oh, eighteen—no, your census is every 10 years.

ROACH: Yeah, census, not census, but you know—

MARSHALL: Census every 10 years.

ROACH: the books that they got the record of. That’s what I’m talking

about. Where they put the record.

MARSHALL: I’m don’t know what record you are—now, what I looked at was

census records.

ROACH: I don’t know what the records are, but these records are [all

they’re real] old, they’re about so practically so old they’re about tobreak, y’know.

think of nothing. But from the beginning, and, and the records there, I,somewhere, in the, was that in the, in that, uh, abstract I had, they said thatsome of this was done in Detroit, some of these records was done in Detroit,before Ypsil—when there was no Ypsilanti, Ann Arbor, you know. So Mr.Woodward, when he down here, what he done, that my abstract told me that, thathe did that in Detroit. What year I think it was and everything.

MARSHALL: Well. I know they don’t have all the records at any one place, so,

but I find that—

ROACH: They’re, they’re, they’re,

MARSHALL: I can’t find them in Ypsilanti, then

ROACH: They, they, done so put the record there.

MARSHALL: I go to Ann Arbor, and sometimes I have to go to Detroit to see.

ROACH: Uh-huh. Well, anyway, they [did] submit those records, so many records,

somebody in my family, yeah, even the national, know what they done, years backat the time when I first began to get interested in history? They done somethingoh—done away with this James Madison [whoa]. What he done, in the UnitedStates. Done something with that, they couldn’t find that.

MARSHALL: But you have it.

ROACH: That was [down soam], that was, they had,

MARSHALL: Thought you know they had it.

ROACH: What they had, they had all of the others. I’m sure they had his, when

he was the President.

MARSHALL: Not necessarily. Not necessarily.

ROACH: Oh, I [would think they had it], but anyway, they must have had it,

’cause when they [say about they did], old TV, I heard her say that. Oh, this,that James Madison book had been something, had, mis, misplaced. They had it,way it sounded, had been misplaced. That was announced over TV. Oh yeah, they,they-uh, they [done a lot of parcels on] me, had to find out about this land,[the top that I had to really rehearse], they tried to do something about it.Yeah, they, and—

MARSHALL: Well, let me see now, I guess that’s all interesting, but that’s

not really what I’m interested in.

ROACH: Well, I don’t know too much about black history, that’s what

you’re talking about, black history,

MARSHALL: I’m just writing about black history.

ROACH: Well, I, I [sohm may] you say you maybe what you after, I say, well, I

41:00want to learn black history but I thought you meant history, period, y’know.

MARSHALL: No, I’m interested in the black history. I’m interested in, you

see, in the history of Ypsilanti, in the history of Ypsilanti, uh, none of themhave indicated any contributions made by blacks. The only thing that they say inthere about any contributions made by blacks is McCoy.

ROACH: McCoy is a black man. McCoy…[right].

MARSHALL: Elijah McCoy.

ROACH: I’m trying to think. Seems like I saw that somewhere in, um, the

abstract, and I thought it was a white man, and uh, something about his place,was out here, I read it somewhere, a place somewhere I [this] or he was back outthat way, his place was right back out that a way.

MARSHALL: No, back this way.

ROACH: Well, one all the way in the country somewhere, I don’t know where it was.

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

ROACH: And, so, I was riding along one day, [really got awful mean] out there,

my [aunt said], you don’t where the McCoy place was? I thought we know, now.Tell he would tell him we know, Mc—McCoy place was. I told him what I sawabout there about the McCoy place. He didn’t know.42:00

MARSHALL: No, McCoy, George McCoy, had been a slave in Kentucky.

ROACH: Mm.

MARSHALL: And he escaped, well, he didn’t escape, he bought his freedom. But

then he fell in love with a girl who was a slave. And he didn’t have the moneyto purchase her freedom, so they escaped,

WOMAN: [MURMURS QUESTION TO MS. ROACH]

ROACH: [I told her yesterday here what to do, how come he back up, and carry

her back upstairs?] My brother’s he’s old, and he can’t tell his [somefeckish] from his nose.

MARSHALL: So they escaped by way of the Underground Railroad,

ROACH: He come back down though.

MARSHALL: through Ypsilanti, into, into, into Canada.

ROACH: Yeah, I know.

MARSHALL: But he had learned how to make cigars in Kentucky. He came back to

Ypsilanti, and started raising tobacco, and making cigars. Now, that was in the1850s. So, that was really the second business you had in Ypsilanti, operated by43:00blacks. He had quite a, quite a big tobacco factory, cigar factory.

ROACH: Now where’d you get that from, [day of meshing].

MARSHALL: I don’t know.

ROACH: You mean you searched around different places.

MARSHALL: I got it in various places.

ROACH: [I tell someone ever mention mar, this is modern]

MARSHALL: I’ve been, actually, I’ve been thinking this stuff out for four or

five years, see?

ROACH: [someone’s been mod—modern, there too] Here’s my brother here.

MARSHALL: How are you doing, sir? How are you?

ROACH: Mr. Marshall.

MARSHALL: Nice to know you. [laughs] I’ve been thinking this out for so many

years now, I, I can’t always tell you

ROACH: I need. Come on up and I might find it.

MARSHALL: exactly what I found. But I have copies, I have it all down. I have a

file. But anyway, uh, uh, uh, McCoy was, McCoy was also a conductor on theUnderground Railroad.

ROACH: Well, I know, I heard about the Underground Railroad. I read—

MARSHALL: Well, he was the conductor on it. He had a son named, his name was

Joy. But he had a son named Elijah. Elijah wanted to be an engineer. Well,meantime, another family that was interested in the Underground Railroad were44:00these people who had just come here by the name of McAndrew, and they had justcome here from Scotland.

ROACH: Uh-huh.

MARSHALL: Mrs. McAndrew had gone to New York and had become a doctor, and had

come back—meantime, she’d had two children.

ROACH: Mm-hmm.

MARSHALL: The McCoys and the McAndrews knew each other,

ROACH: Mm-hmm.

MARSHALL: so when the McAndrews heard that McCoy had this son who wanted to be

an engineer, and there was no place for him to go to school in the UnitedStates, they helped him to find a family in Scotland, that’s why he went toScotland, and he was apprenticed over there. And he stayed over there untilafter the Civil War was over. Then he came back here and he worked for the oldMichigan Central Railroad, here in Ypsilanti. And that’s where he made hisfirst invention. Now, he is known as an inventor. And what they, when they say‘the real McCoy,’ it was people who were going to the store to buy the oil45:00cup, they didn’t want any imitations, they wanted the real McCoy. Now hestayed here until about 1876 or 1877, and the reason he left, he had tried tostart a business to, to manufacture the things that he invented. He invented alot of things. He had about 50 different things that he invented.

ROACH: Patented.

MARSHALL: But he left here and went to Detroit after his business failed here.

He couldn't get financial backing. He went to Detroit and he still didn’t getfinancial backing, and he died in Detroit in 1929.

ROACH: Wouldn’t give him a chance at all.

MARSHALL: Huh?

ROACH: They wouldn’t give him a chance at all, trying…

MARSHALL: Well, I would say he didn’t get, he didn’t, yes, he, yeah, he was

unable, yeah, he, he was unable to get the money to, to do it. Now, you also hadin the meantime, you had a lawyer practicing down here, on Michigan Avenue. That46:00was around 1880.

ROACH: What’s his name?

MARSHALL: Fox. Fox. He didn’t live very long, he died [in life] think he was

around 36 years old when he died. He was here also. And then you had some Bowshere who were in business. There’s still some.

ROACH: Some Bows here, yeah.

MARSHALL: And uh, uh, they had a grocery store down here on Washington Street,

not far from here. And it wasn’t just a Negro grocery store, it was a grocerystore that served everybody. But uh, that’s the phase of history that I’minterested in.

ROACH: Yeah, that’s good.

MARSHALL: I’m trying to show that in the development of this town,

ROACH: Mm-hmm.

MARSHALL: Black folks made contributions and can be proud, too, of what they

have done. And, uh, I haven’t really gotten into it, and in fact I’m notreally interested in getting into the

ROACH: Well, I thought maybe you want the complete history, because it’s not,

it’s not, it’s so messed up, people don’t tell the truth about it. I thinkit’s some old people here, they [act and do] things for themselves and doingthem for their children. They don’t [argue] even know about it. ’Cause Iknow. I know some of these old people, and I know what they’re after. Used towork for them.

Partial Transcript:MARSHALL: Now, you got interested in, uh, well, it was just a natural interest, uh, you, you, you, when you got here, you got interested in the history of Ypsilanti.

ROACH: Well, I didn’t get interested in history, uh, when I first came.

MARSHALL: Mm.

ROACH: I got interested in, in history was when I have, uh, bought, before I bought the—I discovered something, after I bought this [piano] on the place, I discovered. Well, I, aw, I was working with some lawyers, a lawyer,

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm

Segment Synopsis: Versa describes her difficulties with a property lawyer and her interests in Ypsilanti history sparked by the history of the deed on her house. She discusses how her property was passed to speculators in the beginning and wonders about its legality. A.P. Marshall and Mrs. Roach have a disagreement about Ypsilanti history.

Partial Transcript:ROACH: Well, see, all those deeds was in that abstract I had, all those deeds. [Whole bunch a papers someone a lend to] Mr. Woodruff, uh, oh, then I can’t think of all the names now, all names. [Sticks]. [Bacambrey]. Oh, just a lot of names. There’s a lot of—I tell you, somebody el—else a, was a, should be a big important part in this, in this history, in this city. The Francois.

MARSHALL: Who?

ROACH: Francois should be.

MARSHALL: Yeah, but he didn’t come here until 1940.

ROACH: No, I—

Segment Synopsis: Versa and A.P. Marshall discuss the early history of African-American Ypsilanti and the first black residents of the city. A.P. Marshall discusses the story of the McCoy's family flight to freedom and life in Ypsilanti.

The interviews, transcripts, indexes, and photographs contained herein may not be reproduced or altered without the permission of the Ypsilanti District Library and the Ypsilanti Historical Society. Short excerpts may be used for the purposes of promoting the archive or the project, or in scholarly work with appropriate references.