http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081011/ap_on_el_pr/palin_troopergate;_ylt=ApqkfctE2P0SQMoc5sg2mCRh24c A

ANCHORAGE, Alaska - The politically charged investigation into Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin is over, and its conclusions are stinging. But the fallout, if any, might not come until Election Day.

A legislative investigator found that Palin violated state ethics laws and abused her power by trying to have her former brother-in-law fired as a state trooper.

The next move may be at the ballot box. The legislative committee that released the report Friday recommends no criminal investigation and has no authority to sanction the governor, the Republican vice presidential nominee.

"It is out of the Legislative Council's hands. It goes to anyone's hands who got a copy or clicks the link on the Web," said Democratic state Sen. Kim Elton, the chairman of the committee that released the report. "I can't tell you how the process ends."

If voters believe the report's finding and it tarnishes Palin's reputation as a reformer and a champion for good government, that could hurt Republican presidential nominee John McCain in the final weeks of the race.

...

The report notes a few instances in which Palin pressed the case against trooper Mike Wooten, but it was her husband, Todd, who led the charge. Todd Palin had extraordinary access to the governor's office and her closest advisers and he used that access to try to get Wooten fired.

Gov. Palin knowingly "permitted Todd to use the Governor's office and the resources of the Governor's office, including access to state employees, to continue to contact subordinate state employees in an effort to find some way to get Trooper Wooten fired," Branchflower's report reads.

this is a gem. while todd and palins kids are cruising around in the state jet, he's trying to get a police officer busted for dropping his kids off at school in the patrol car. :rolleyes:

For Palin, some pork is kosher

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1008/14471_Page2.html

Last year, when a Juneau Pentecostal church asked the Alaska state government for cash for a new youth center, Gov. Sarah Palin, who had recently started worshipping at the church, vetoed the legislative appropriation from the capital budget, explaining it was “not a state responsibility.”

But by the time this year’s budget negotiations rolled around, Palin had become very involved in the Juneau Christian Center, attending an increasing number of services there, touring the youth center with her family, citing the pastor as among her spiritual guides, and appearing with the pastor at a Martin Luther King Day celebration and a religious conference where he laid hands on her while praying.

During this year’s capital budget writing process, Palin penned a letter to lawmakers “in support of the Juneau Christian Center’s new state-of-the-art youth center,” and she approved $25,000 for the center in May, even as she sparked a backlash from officials around the state for slashing spending from projects they deemed crucial to their areas.

Her reversal on the church funding is one small example of what both her critics and supporters in both parties in Alaska say is a trend in Palin’s political track record: She supports spending taxpayer cash on initiatives that tickle her fancy, even as she rails against funding for other — sometimes similar — projects and does little to slow overall government spending.

It’s a pattern that runs counter to the cost-cutting, anti-pork crusader persona that Palin has fashioned for herself from the dawn of her political career in the hometown municipal politics of Wasilla, Alaska, through her 22 months as Alaska’s governor, and now in her surprise turn as John McCain’s running mate on the Republican presidential ticket.

On the campaign trail, Palin’s denouncements of wasteful government expenditures — and her boasts of vetoing “nearly a half a billion dollars in reckless spending” from Alaska’s capital budget — dovetail with McCain’s own pledges to veto pork barrel spending.

But Palin over the years has approved billions of taxpayer dollars for discretionary projects, including some to which she had personal, political or parochial connections.

....

On the campaign trail, Palin joined McCain in denouncing the bridge as epitomizing government waste. But Weinstein points out that Palin has not withdrawn her support for the Knik Arm Crossing, which has also been lampooned as a "bridge to nowhere,” but which would cut commute times for Palin’s neighbors in Wasilla and the surrounding Matanuska-Susitna — or Mat-Su — Valley.

...

She also managed to find at least $10,000 to help fund the snowmobile race her husband has won several times.
...

But during her tenures as both mayor and governor, operating budgets ballooned by 55 percent in Wasilla and 25 percent in Alaska.

It was easier — and splashier — for Palin to slash the capital budget than to rein in the operating budget, said state Sen. Bert Stedman, a Republican who co-chairs the Senate Finance Committee.

...

In 2007, Palin slashed funding from the capital budget for 40 sports-related projects, ranging from school baseball and soccer fields to $2.5 million in roof repairs at an Anchorage arena, because she asserted sports did not constitute an essential government service. Yet she approved cash for Wasilla’s hockey complex and several other sports projects in the Mat-Su Valley, including new lights at one high school field and new bleachers at another.

"She’s certainly in a position to favor those projects that she likes and that satisfy her personal interests,” said Botelho. “Every executive has that prerogative.”

lots of gems in this article. helps explain why she looks the other way while her state forces rape victims even though it is critical evidence the police and local govt. use to build a case. kinda disturbing being that alaska doubles the national average of rape victims.

also makes me wonder why earmarking some of this budget surpluss to clean up the toxic waste dump in her own back yard isnt more important, being that alaska has 2x the national average of children born with birth defects. i would think this one would especially be important to her.

Unfortunately, as governor of a state with a birth-defect rate that's twice the national average, and which has the gloomy status as repository of toxic chemicals from around the world, Palin has pursued environmental policies that seem perfectly crafted to swell the ranks of special-needs kids. It's true that Alaska's top leaders have placed industry wishes over environmental protection for years. But, instead of correcting this problem, she's compounded it. Peer into her environmental record, and Palin ends up looking a lot like George W. Bush.

so while shes out smearing obama, i think its important to ask who is the real sarah palin and why did mccain touch her with a 10 foot pole? she is the iceberg that will sink his ship. i still doubt her background was more than skimmed in the vetting process. shame on the campaign. mccain deserved better than this.

T&B fan

10-11-2008, 05:40 PM

the 2 partys are bad that is the reson you shoud vote for Ralfe Nadder

Mosca

10-11-2008, 05:45 PM

Wait, wait... let me continue this so that the others guys don't have to...

BUT OBAMA.... (fill in whatever deflecting crap you want to here).

GBMelBlount

10-11-2008, 06:00 PM

There are clear differences between these candidates. It doesn't say too much about someone whose vote would be decided because of something this minor when there is so much at stake this election.

cubanstogie

10-11-2008, 06:16 PM

this pales in comparison to hanging out with a known terrorist and racist. I wonder if Obama would pardon Ayers if he pulls this crap again. Pretty scary thought there.

Preacher

10-11-2008, 06:21 PM

Wait, wait... let me continue this so that the others guys don't have to...

BUT OBAMA.... (fill in whatever deflecting crap you want to here).

:rolleyes:

Democrats find a republican in violation, but no criminal act... which means, no real violation.

Oh yeah... did anyone hear about the officer's threats of death and violence toward the family? Kinda funny how that was missing in the newscasts around here.

I think that is reason for a trooper to lose his job, regardless of what a democrat led state investigation in a political year says.

tony hipchest

10-11-2008, 06:44 PM

There are clear differences between these candidates. It doesn't say too much about someone whose vote would be decided because of something this minor when there is so much at stake this election.

EXACTLY! which makes this even that much more confounding. why would the mccain camp spend the whole last week focussing on obamas meaningless association with ayers when there is so much at stake?

dont you see the hypocricy here? palins husband is a known secessionist and anti govt. and america, and it comes to light that even he has abused her position and tried to use it for personal gain.

all you righties who were weary of hilary clinton's alleged pull while she was should easilly understand why someone might be skeptical about "first dude" todd.

this article gives a nice little history and backdrop of sarah and her rise to the local politics. i know everytime a local article is posted about her that is written by an insider, all those call it sour grapes and evidence of a vendetta against her. this paints a much clearer picture, she seems to be the one with a vendetta.

sarah seems to be the one with an inferiority complex and seems to have a problem with anyone more educated than her, richer, or with a higher social standing. some might call it a napoleon complex, some may call it penis envy....

anyways this exerpt may show where first dude (and sarah?) became introduced to his anti US govt. movement.

http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=8c130fe3-adab-4cb3-8443-c363f085cf13&p=2
By 1996, a cultural shift in Alaska had emboldened Palin to take on Carney and Stein and enforce her own sense of right. Since it came online in the 1970s, Alaska's oil pipeline had attracted legions of Sunbelters--oil men from Oklahoma, Texas, and Louisiana. They were largely right-wing evangelicals who preferred Wasilla--where land was cheap, zoning was minimal, and taxes were low--to the more uppity environs of Anchorage. Their presence led to a proliferation of conservative churches and anti-government attitudes. By 1994, the same Republican tide that swept the Democrats from Congress had reached the Mat-Su Valley as the conservative hordes came of age.

In 1996, Palin was also asserting herself more and more. For example, she'd demand to know why Stein, the mayor, had "raised the budget." Stein and Carney tried to explain that he'd done nothing of the kind--that, when a city grows, businesses collect more in tax revenue, but that new residents also increase demand for public services. Palin wasn't appeased. She'd say things like, "'Oh, okay. Well, that's the way you think about it,'" Stein recalls. "I was thinking--these are things she should know better. Why is she asking me these stupid questions?"

Preacher

10-11-2008, 06:49 PM

EXACTLY! which makes this even that much more confounding. why would the mccain camp spend the whole last week focussing on obamas meaningless association when there is so much at stake?

dont you see the hypocricy here? palins husband is a known secessionist and anti govt. and america, and it comes to light that even he has abused her position and tried to use it for personal gain.

all you righties who were weary of hilary clinton's alleged pull while she was should easilly understand why someone might be skeptical about "first dude" todd.

this article gives a nice little history and backdrop of sarah and her rise to the local politics. i know everytime a local article is posted about her that is written by an insider, all those call it sour grapes and evidence of a vendetta against her. this paints a much clearer picture.

sarah seems to be the one with an inferiority complex and seems to have a problem with anyone more educated than her, richer, or with a higher social standing. some might call it a napoleon complex, some may call it penis envy....

anyways this exerpt may show where first dude became introduced to his anti gove movement.

Because Obama not understanding that giving terrorists.. even domestic terrorists legitmacy is crucial to how he will govern, especially when he chooses to meet with heads of state with "no precondition" which IS what he said.

You can choose to belittle that all you want... but in doing so, it just strengthens the argument that democrats have NO CLUE when it comes to keeping a nation physically safe.

43Hitman

10-11-2008, 06:49 PM

EXACTLY! which makes this even that much more confounding. why would the mccain camp spend the whole last week focussing on obamas meaningless association with ayers when there is so much at stake?

dont you see the hypocricy here? palins husband is a known secessionist and anti govt. and america, and it comes to light that even he has abused her position and tried to use it for personal gain.

all you righties who were weary of hilary clinton's alleged pull while she was should easilly understand why someone might be skeptical about "first dude" todd.

this article gives a nice little history and backdrop of sarah and her rise to the local politics. i know everytime a local article is posted about her that is written by an insider, all those call it sour grapes and evidence of a vendetta against her. this paints a much clearer picture.

sarah seems to be the one with an inferiority complex and seems to have a problem with anyone more educated than her, richer, or with a higher social standing. some might call it a napoleon complex, some may call it penis envy....

anyways this exerpt may show where first dude became introduced to his anti gove movement.

EXACTLY! which makes this even that much more confounding. why would the mccain camp spend the whole last week focussing on obamas meaningless association when there is so much at stake?

dont you see the hypocricy here?

I realize the associations appear meaningless to you but not to many including myself. Unfortunately, because so many people are spoon fed by the left wing media, everything that happens appears to be the fault of greedy capitalists and many of the ignorant, uneducated spoon fed masses buy the solution called big government. So, unfortunately, perhaps that may be McCain's only legitimate shot. :noidea:

tony hipchest

10-11-2008, 07:11 PM

:rolleyes:

Democrats find a republican in violation, but no criminal act... which means, no real violation. :rolleyes: no real violation? but obama knowing and associate is? this isnt about legal violations, its about throwing stones from a glass house, and being a hypocrite, and abusing power for personal gains.

Oh yeah... did anyone hear about the officer's threats of death and violence toward the family? Kinda funny how that was missing in the newscasts around here. probably because nobody is buying BS heresay to "CYA"

I think that is reason for a trooper to lose his job, regardless of what a democrat led state investigation in a political year says.the probe has been going on for much longer than anyone even knew who palin was

beautiful example of turning a blind eye. :applaudit: keep on saying how i "hate" palin though. theres plenty of reasons for anyone to dislike her and want her nowhere near washington.

DAVENPORT, Iowa (AFP) - Vice presidential hopeful Sarah Palin denied wrongdoing Saturday after a probe found she had abused voters' trust as Alaska governor, in a new blow to John McCain's trailing White House campaign.

Republican McCain was embroiled in turmoil of his own meanwhile, after he was booed late Friday by supporters and appeared to undercut his own campaign strategy by calling time on personal attacks on Barack Obama.

Alaska Governor Palin rejected the findings of a bipartisan legislative probe which found she violated ethics rules by letting husband Todd pressure top officials for the firing of her ex-brother-in-law, a state trooper.

Asked by a reporter in Pennsylvania if the charges were true, Palin replied: "No, and if you read the report you will see that there was nothing unlawful or unethical about it. You have to read the report."

The report said that Palin had "the authority and power to require Mr Palin to cease contacting subordinates, but she failed to act."

i bet mccain aint speaking much to palin these days other than telling her to STFU.

Preacher

10-11-2008, 07:23 PM

beautiful example of turning a blind eye. :applaudit: keep on saying how i "hate" palin though. theres plenty of reasons for anyone to dislike her and want her nowhere near washington.

Really?

Plenty of reasons?

Like what... being a Republican? :rolleyes:

BTW... The charges were much ado about nothing... I read about them when Palin was first mentioned... and no one challenged the fact that the cop was making death threats.

I guess it is ok to you for death threats to be made by a cop... right? BTW... COps... UNIONS... Democrats.

TELL ME you didn't see this coming... Tony, you may have to cut some of that hair because it seems to be getting into your eyes.

Try a mullet!! :chuckle:

Mosca

10-11-2008, 07:33 PM

:rolleyes:

Democrats find a republican in violation, but no criminal act... which means, no real violation.

Oh yeah... did anyone hear about the officer's threats of death and violence toward the family? Kinda funny how that was missing in the newscasts around here.

I think that is reason for a trooper to lose his job, regardless of what a democrat led state investigation in a political year says.

Yeah, you're right; let me fix it...

BUT CLINTON..... (insert deflection crap here)

Nice deflection, by the way.

tony hipchest

10-11-2008, 07:36 PM

Really?

Plenty of reasons?

Like what... being a Republican? :rolleyes:

:read the OP. i guess youre in favor of rape victims purchasing their own rape kits? i brought this up a while back, but of course it was ignored. how bout the way she proudly smirks when she whips her crowd into a hate filled frenzy?

atleast mccain is showing some class and character and finally trying to put out the fires.

Preacher

10-11-2008, 07:40 PM

Yeah, you're right; let me fix it...

BUT CLINTON..... (insert deflection crap here)

Nice deflection, by the way.

Seems like your the one that is bringing up Obama and Clinton.

I am looking at the charges, the people surrounding the situation, and the fact that she acted WITHIN HER AUTHORITY... and then laugh at the dems pointing fingers.

Remember when Clinton fired all those federal attorneys? That was absolutely find...

Clinton, Bush, Palin, ANY EXECUTIVE has the RIGHT to fire them because they serve AT THE PLEASURE of the executive.

Funny how you all forget that.

Preacher

10-11-2008, 07:41 PM

read the OP. i guess youre in favor of rape victims purchasing their own rape kits? i brought this up a while back, but of course it was ignored. how bout the way she proudly smirks when she whips her crowd into a hate filled frenzy?

atleast mccain is showing some class and character and finally trying to put out the fires.

And Both dems are in favor of destroy life through abortion.

Your point?

Preacher

10-11-2008, 07:45 PM

BTW....

if Palin VIOLATED state ethics laws, she would be PROSECUTED for it... but what was it that the commission said?

The report found that his refusal to fire the trooper was "likely a contributing factor" in Monegan's termination in July, but it also concluded that the governor's decision was "a proper and lawful exercise of her constitutional and statutory authority" to hire and fire department heads.

he's trying to get a police officer busted for dropping his kids off at school in the patrol car. :rolleyes:

There is a little more to it. The so called officer like to use his kid for target practice with his tazer. I don't know about you but I would have gone after the guy too, especially if it was your nephew. Just my two cents.

tony hipchest

10-11-2008, 08:03 PM

There is a little more to it. The so called officer like to use his kid for target practice with his tazer. I don't know about you but I would have gone after the guy too, especially if it was your nephew. Just my two cents.nobody elected or appointed todd to go after it. :noidea:

hence the title of the thread. violated state ethics law and abused her power.

todd is a hypocrite and a joke. yet the right wing fanatics act like obama is appointing ayers depatrment head of homelans security.

anyways this thread just serves as proof that palin has hurt mccains campaign in the past week a hell of alot more than obamas.

:noidea: not my problem.

Mosca

10-11-2008, 08:04 PM

The firing of the department head was lawful, the tampering to try to get the trooper fired was an ethics violation. Two different charges; guilty of one, not guilty of the other. The report I read said that if you read the commission's findings, the evidence is obvious that there was gross tampering to try to get the trooper fired. There were good people in the state of Alaska who recognized the abuse, and stood up to her. One of those people got fired, as was her prerogative.

But it is already obvious that there are people here who will defend anything that Palin has done, regardless. Because it's not about anything other than yapping. The fact that she isn't who you thought she was is too impossible to admit; the thought that McCain's selection of her is the one most glaring reason that he is going to lose the election is more than you can bear (I am witness to that; it was his selection of Palin that turned me from "undecided" to Obama).

So, whatever is said, you will always have stars in your eyes for the eternally perfect Sarah. She's immune to witches, btw. Oh; you knew that.

Preacher

10-11-2008, 08:05 PM

nobody elected or appointed todd to go after it. :noidea:

hence the title of the thread. violated state ethics law and abused her power.

todd is a hypocrite and a joke. yet the right wing fanatics act like obama is appointing ayers depatrment head of homelans security.

anyways this thread just serves as proof that palin has hurt mccains campaign in the past week a hell of alot more than obamas.

:noidea: not my problem.

I doubt very much the reason of this post was to serve as proof of Palin hurting McCain....

So I'll accept that post as you admitting that it IS much ado about nothing... thank you.

:wave:

MACH1

10-11-2008, 08:06 PM

nobody elected or appointed todd to go after it. .

No, But I can't blame the guy trying to help their nephew. :noidea:

tony hipchest

10-11-2008, 08:08 PM

And Both dems are in favor of destroy life through abortion.

Your point?
my point is youre either in favor of charging victims for their rape kits or youre afraid to stand up and take a stand against youre sweetheart palin.

take your pick, instead of messing around with the common, typical, tired deflection. :yawn:

whatsa matter? afraid to talk about the issues in this thread? sarah certainly is.

no wonder youre (and all her other defenders) are voting for the mud slinger.

an honorable man named mccain deserved better. now he's beginning to look like just a punchline.

Preacher

10-11-2008, 08:11 PM

The firing of the department head was lawful, the tampering to try to get the trooper fired was an ethics violation. Two different charges; guilty of one, not guilty of the other. The report I read said that if you read the commission's findings, the evidence is obvious that there was gross tampering to try to get the trooper fired. There were good people in the state of Alaska who recognized the abuse, and stood up to her. One of those people got fired, as was her prerogative.

But it is already obvious that there are people here who will defend anything that Palin has done, regardless. Because it's not about anything other than yapping. The fact that she isn't who you thought she was is too impossible to admit; the thought that McCain's selection of her is the one most glaring reason that he is going to lose the election is more than you can bear (I am witness to that; it was his selection of Palin that turned me from "undecided" to Obama).

So, whatever is said, you will always have stars in your eyes for the eternally perfect Sarah. She's immune to witches, btw. Oh; you knew that.
:pity:

But the eternally perfect Obama has done nothing wrong... not with Ayers, not with interferring with the presidents dealing with Iraq in a personal phone call ... not leaving HIS brother to rot in africa... though he says that we are to be our brother's keeper. Yeah, NOTHING wrong.

Please. Spare me the righteous indignation. It doesn't look good on a group of people that turns a blind eye to Obama's faults.

tony hipchest

10-11-2008, 08:17 PM

No, But I can't blame the guy trying to help their nephew. :noidea:no, i cant either. i get it. but i ask you this?

why didnt todd just go kick his ass then? because it would look bad on his wife.

why didnt todd call the police or child protective services?

why DID todd take the law (and the entire governors office) into his own hands?
the bigger question is why did sarah allow it? didnt she have the wherewithall to know it would make her look bad?

my theory is she thought she was above the law (her character and actions suggests as much) and thought she was untouchable.

as petty as it may seem it shows a "pattern".

sarah has been talkin alot about "patterns" this week at her mcclan rallys.

Preacher

10-11-2008, 08:17 PM

my point is youre either in favor of charging victims for their rape kits or youre afraid to stand up and take a stand against youre sweetheart palin.

take your pick, instead of messing around with the common, typical, tired deflection. :yawn:

whatsa matter? afraid to talk about the issues in this thread? sarah certainly is.

no wonder youre (and all her other defenders) are voting for the mud slinger.

an honorable man named mccain deserved better. now he's beginning to look like just a punchline.

If your too lazy to read my previous posts, I am not going to re-post them.

BTW... I disagree with her on rape kit victims.

Now answer my question about Obama and abortion. Or are you unable to say anything bad about Obama? Is he truly your political messiah?

Preacher

10-11-2008, 08:20 PM

no, i cant either. i get it. but i ask you this?

why didnt todd just go kick his ass then? because it would look bad on his wife.

why didnt todd call the police or child protective services?

why DID todd take the law (and the entire governors office) into his own hands?
the bigger question is why did sarah allow it? didnt she have the wherewithall to know it would make her look bad?

my theory is she thought she was above the law (her character and actions suggests as much) and thought she was untouchable.

as petty as it may seem it shows a "pattern".

sarah has been talkin alot about "patterns" this week at her mcclan rallys.

why didnt todd just go kick his ass then? because it would look bad on his wife.

why didnt todd call the police or child protective services?

why DID todd take the law (and the entire governors office) into his own hands?
the bigger question is why did sarah allow it? didnt she have the wherewithall to know it would make her look bad?

my theory is she thought she was above the law (her character and actions suggests as much) and thought she was untouchable.

as petty as it may seem it shows a "pattern".

sarah has been talkin alot about "patterns" this week at her mcclan rallys.

Was that purposeful?

Because if it is, it is despicable.

I guess the best way to justify your hatred for her is to project your hatred TOO her for someone else.

Sad. real sad.

tony hipchest

10-11-2008, 08:23 PM

:pity:

But the eternally perfect Obama has done nothing wrong... not with Ayers, .says the eternally perfect preacher...:wink02:

you obviously dont believe in american system. is ayers in jail? what did obama do wrong besides violate YOUR personal standards and unreachable ethics?

Preacher

10-11-2008, 08:29 PM

says the eternally perfect preacher...:wink02:

you obviously dont believe in american system. is ayers in jail? what did obama do wrong besides violate YOUR personal standards and unreachable ethics?

Talk about deflection, we are talking about your hatered of Palin and your psychological issue of projecting your hate to her to justify it.

Come on now Tony... stop deflecting and answer the question.

Preacher

10-11-2008, 08:30 PM

says the eternally perfect preacher...:wink02:

you obviously dont believe in american system. is ayers in jail? what did obama do wrong besides violate YOUR personal standards and unreachable ethics?

BTW...

I am far from perfect. However, I DONT hang around with known domestic terrorists.

Can you tell the difference?

tony hipchest

10-11-2008, 08:36 PM

If your too lazy to read my previous posts, I am not going to re-post them.

BTW... I disagree with her on rape kit victims. :applaudit:thats all you had to say, instead of interjecting this thread with all typical diversion and spin. :applaudit:

Now answer my question about Obama and abortion. Or are you unable to say anything bad about Obama? Is he truly your political messiah?im pro choice and pro capital punishment.

kind of a paradox, yet consistant. oh, and you can blame your sweetheart palin and the mccain campaign for making their tour stops look like hate filled clan rallies. kinda hypocritical for you to call me dispicable yet defend her.

i call it as i see it. i dont create it. :noidea:

Hammer Of The GODS

10-11-2008, 08:43 PM

Hey news flash!!!

This IS what politicians do! BOTH sides! They put thier own concerns ahead of the citizens they serve. Been going on longer than we've been alive.

POLITICIANS ARE SCUM!

That being said, I can NOT in good conscience vote for a man who may have radial muslim terrorists friends/associations. His past is too "grey" for me.

Christian / muslim / christian / muslim ????? What will he be when it counts? I don't give a damn what religion our president is as long as its not muslim! I would say the same thing about ANY religion who has a group within it whos only mission in life is to destroy the US! I personally think all organized religion is bunk. But at least I have respect for thier beliefs. A religion that believes that virgins await them if they strap a bomb to thier chest and blow up innocent people? How the hell do you respect that?

Blast away at my opinion if you want. Your comments don't scare me as much as another terrorist attack!

I am 37 years old and I have never voted. Was in the Marines the better part of my adult life and really didn't feel motivated by any politician to vote for him. That list includes both the Bush boys, and Clinton (although I do regret not voting against him 2nd time around) and all the douchebags that lost to them. Point is, you take the muslim out of the equation and I probobly wouldn't be voting again. That's how adament I am about not having a muslim in office. Say what you will about me not voting, my answer to you is....... Why should I vote for someone who I don't believe will get the job done? Terrorism trumps all else in my book, so my vote goes to the guy who served our country and the hottest chick to ever sniff the US presidency!

Don't like my reasons????? Thats too damn bad! It's my vote!

tony hipchest

10-11-2008, 08:46 PM

BTW...

I am far from perfect. However, I DONT hang around with known domestic terrorists.

Can you tell the difference?do you hang out with known secessionists?

im gonna ask you this honestly and hope you can answer w/o all the diatribe (perhaps i should ask you via pm again)

2) why is palin running a smear campaign when it seems so counter productive and hypocritical.

3) why does obama not bring up all the negatives such as mccain voting agains mt luther king holiday, palin on ethics violations or her husband wanting to secede?

4) why, to a barage of "boo's" does mccain announce to his followers that they have nothing to fear with obama as president?

Preacher

10-11-2008, 08:49 PM

im pro choice and pro capital punishment.

kind of a paradox, yet consistant. oh, and you can blame your sweetheart palin and the mccain campaign for making their tour stops look like hate filled clan rallies. kinda hypocritical for you to call me dispicable yet defend her.

i call it as i see it. i dont create it. :noidea:

You confuse the two much more than you think.

and the Klan is a terrorist organization...

So either way, a terrorist is getting into office... except that you called McCain honorable.

So I guess that just leaves one presidential terrorist candidate right?

Great logic!!!

I choose to think a different way. Choose not to judge a persons heart until I meet them personally. Guess you can see a persons heart a mile a way, or over a TV right?

I don't hate Obama. I distrust his judgement. but oh well to each his own. :thumbsup:

tony hipchest

10-11-2008, 08:54 PM

You confuse the two much more than you think.

and the Klan is a terrorist organization...

So either way, a terrorist is getting into office... except that you called McCain honorable.

So I guess that just leaves one presidential terrorist candidate right?

Great logic!!!

I choose to think a different way. Choose not to judge a persons heart until I meet them personally. Guess you can see a persons heart a mile a way, or over a TV right?

I don't hate Obama. I distrust his judgement. but oh well to each his own. :thumbsup:
mccain is honorable. i just distrust his judgement (or can ONLY you do that)?

yep, the klan is a terrorist organization, which is why palin drumming up a frenzy to the point of "hang him" and "terrorist" being yelled at the rallies is disgusting.

dont try to pin this on me while you defend her.

Preacher

10-11-2008, 09:01 PM

im gonna ask you this honestly and hope you can answer w/o all the diatribe (perhaps i should ask you via pm again)

Because there were procedural questions surrounding the gathering of evidence against him. Thus, the evidence was thrown out and what was left did not get a conviction. The lack of a conviction doesn't mean innocence. Just ask O.J. Simpson.

2) why is palin running a smear campaign when it seems so counter productive and hypocritical.

Smear campaign is not the right word. I don't accept that question. She has taken off the gloves, and yes, delivering shots under the belt. Smear would be saying he is a muslim terrorist taking money from Osama bin Laden. She is asking nasty questions trying to put him on the defensive... which is what BOTH parties do when they are behind, hence, the NEXT answer....

3) why does obama not bring up all the negatives such as mccain voting agains mt luther king holiday, palin on ethics violations or her husband wanting to secede?

Because he is not behind in the polls. If he were, and thought he had a good chance of losing, you better bet Obama would throw all of that up there.

4) why, to a barage of "boo's" does mccain announce to his followers that they have nothing to fear with obama as president?

Because the GOP feels like they have too long played by the rules while watching the dems shoot dirty pool in congress.

Whether you agree or disagree with that last sentence, that IS what MANY GOP feel.

Issues such as not forcing the filibuster by the dems... not going after the dems for holding up the judges, especially that... and then seeing McCain reach across the aisle to a party that is trying to control congress from the minority status.

Again, you may not agree... but that is the feeling in the GOP rank and file.

if the dems win it all, the GOp may, for the first time, REALLY take off the gloves, much like the dems did the first two years of BUsh's 2nd term.

Preacher

10-11-2008, 09:02 PM

mccain is honorable. i just distrust his judgement (or can ONLY you do that)?

yep, the klan is a terrorist organization, which is why palin drumming up a frenzy to the point of "hang him" and "terrorist" being yelled at the rallies is disgusting.

dont try to pin this on me while you defend her.

I am only using your system of argument... and finding it quite funny how you dislike it being used against you.

tony hipchest

10-11-2008, 09:07 PM

I am only using your system of argument... and finding it quite funny how you dislike it being used against you.i like (actually quite enjoy) the back and forth.

im not sure what "system of argument" you speak of.

if you mean simple logic then.... :thumbsup: thanks for finally jumping on board. we should be able to communicate much easier now.

tony hipchest

10-11-2008, 09:11 PM

Hey news flash!!!

This IS what politicians do! BOTH sides! They put thier own concerns ahead of the citizens they serve. Been going on longer than we've been alive.

POLITICIANS ARE SCUM!

That being said, I can NOT in good conscience vote for a man who may have radial muslim terrorists friends/associations. His past is too "grey" for me.

Christian / muslim / christian / muslim ????? What will he be when it counts? I don't give a damn what religion our president is as long as its not muslim! I would say the same thing about ANY religion who has a group within it whos only mission in life is to destroy the US! I personally think all organized religion is bunk. But at least I have respect for thier beliefs. A religion that believes that virgins await them if they strap a bomb to thier chest and blow up innocent people? How the hell do you respect that?

Blast away at my opinion if you want. Your comments don't scare me as much as another terrorist attack!

I am 37 years old and I have never voted. Was in the Marines the better part of my adult life and really didn't feel motivated by any politician to vote for him. That list includes both the Bush boys, and Clinton (although I do regret not voting against him 2nd time around) and all the douchebags that lost to them. Point is, you take the muslim out of the equation and I probobly wouldn't be voting again. That's how adament I am about not having a muslim in office. Say what you will about me not voting, my answer to you is....... Why should I vote for someone who I don't believe will get the job done? Terrorism trumps all else in my book, so my vote goes to the guy who served our country and the hottest chick to ever sniff the US presidency!

Don't like my reasons????? Thats too damn bad! It's my vote!

hmmmmm..... :scratchchin:

lets see-

up front, honest, not attacking me, not putting words in my mouth, not twisting what i say or take it out of context, an opinion not trying to be passed off as fact. :huh:

i dont know if im prepared for such a curveball! whether or not i agree or disagree, i see no reason why i (or anyone else) would wanna blast this post.

honestly i find it sort of refreshing.

:drink:

Preacher

10-11-2008, 09:12 PM

i like (actually quite enjoy) the back and forth.

im not sure what "system of argument" you speak of.

if you mean simple logic then.... :thumbsup: thanks for finally jumping on board. we should be able to communicate much easier now.

Tony.

Let's turn this positive then....

Can you find ANYTHING about Palin and then about McCain, that you can say positively about them?

up front, honest, not attacking me, not putting words in my mouth, not twisting what i say or take it out of context, an opinion not trying to be passed off as fact. :huh:

i dont know if im prepared for such a curveball! whether or not i agree or disagree, i see no reason why i (or anyone else) would wanna blast this post.

honestly i find it sort of refreshing.

:drink:

Funny, that is what I mean by "your system of argument" :rofl:

Preacher

10-11-2008, 09:15 PM

BTW... Tony...

you DO realize that you and I account for pretty much almost the entire thread right? :rofl:

We should have saved it for tomorrow since there is no Steelers game. :wink02:

GBMelBlount

10-11-2008, 09:16 PM

There were good people in the state of Alaska who recognized the abuse, and stood up to her. One of those people got fired, as was her prerogative.

But it is already obvious that there are people here who will defend anything that Palin has done, regardless.

You think the left is ANY different? That's how it comes across, that you think this is unusual or uncommon. It surprises me you would even type that sentence with the implications that you are obviously attaching to it.

revefsreleets

10-11-2008, 09:17 PM

I'll admit Palin abused her power....but every politician does.

I don't care for her anyway.

Is this really THAT big of a deal?

I see this as more of the same...straight partisan blinders. I took mine off a while ago...

Preacher

10-11-2008, 09:19 PM

You think the left is ANY different? That's how it comes across, that you think this is unusual. It surprises me you would even type that sentence with the implications that you are obviously attaching to it.

I am starting to learn that the only difference between the right and the left is that the lefft thinks the right is the only one who does it... the right knows both do it.

After all, in actual governing... they have both just turned into crooks for the most part.

Preacher

10-11-2008, 09:26 PM

I'll admit Palin abused her power....but every politician does.

I don't care for her anyway.

Is this really THAT big of a deal?

I see this as more of the same...straight partisan blinders. I took mine off a while ago...

:chuckle:

Be honest... I don't see much difference between Obama and McCain... they both are about equidistant from Reagan IMO

GBMelBlount

10-11-2008, 09:31 PM

The biggest difference with the right in my opinion, is you HOPEFULLY have a better chance of slowing the growth of the cancer that is killing this country...our government. It is out of control and it is hard to argue otherwise.

I didn't just completely change the topic did I?

tony hipchest

10-11-2008, 09:32 PM

Tony.

Let's turn this positive then....

Can you find ANYTHING about Palin and then about McCain, that you can say positively about them?

other than that? absolutely not. and believe me, ive looked. all of what has been advertised as her positives have already been debunked. i would like to say she is a great mom and a good wife but even that has been called into question.

seriously, what else is there? show me other of her positives that landed her on the ticket and i will show where it is bunk.

she was brought on to pick up die hard hilary supporters that may have been disenfranchised with the obama ticket.

why the GOP would wanna welcome hillary clintonites onto their bandwaggon for support still baffles me. it seems like a move that was doomed for failure.

really? the GOP relying on hilary supporters? :sofunny: OMFG!

i could (and have) said a ton of good things about mccain. too bad youve missed (or ignored) them.

im not trying to be sarcastic or dodge the question. i cant find nothing positive about sarah....

she likes guns and is anti abortion. :hunch: ive never held that against anyone. :noidea:

thats all i got.

revefsreleets

10-11-2008, 09:37 PM

:chuckle:

Be honest... I don't see much difference between Obama and McCain... they both are about equidistant from Reagan IMO

I see a huge difference between Obama and McCain. Socially and fiscally. More importantly, we run the risk of a liberally run Congress under Nancy Pelosi coupled with a liberally run Senate under Harry Reid with the capper of an uber-liberal President in Obama.

If the American people actually vote for that, they'll deserve what they get. If the war is abruptly ended, I have no idea what long-term repercussions we'll face ibn the Middle-East (it'll be BAD), but I'm sure that the deficit will double. If we stay it'll triple in the next 4 years. 20 trillion versus 30 trillion. And I expect it could get a LOT worse if we socialize medicine, which is VERY possible, maybe even within the first 100 days.

GBMelBlount

10-11-2008, 09:48 PM

I see a huge difference between Obama and McCain. Socially and fiscally. More importantly, we run the risk of a liberally run Congress under Nancy Pelosi coupled with a liberally run Senate under Harry Reid with the capper of an uber-liberal President in Obama.

If the American people actually vote for that, they'll deserve what they get. If the war is abruptly ended, I have no idea what long-term repercussions we'll face ibn the Middle-East (it'll be BAD), but I'm sure that the deficit will double. If we stay it'll triple in the next 4 years. 20 trillion versus 30 trillion. And I expect it could get a LOT worse if we socialize medicine, which is VERY possible, maybe even within the first 100 days.

Seriously, those are ALL very valid points. If the economy is so bad, you don't want to increase taxes by a trillion dollars and if healthcare sucks, socializing it will not make it better.

tony hipchest

10-11-2008, 09:49 PM

I'll admit Palin abused her power....but every politician does.

I don't care for her anyway.

Is this really THAT big of a deal?

I see this as more of the same...straight partisan blinders. I took mine off a while ago...
i respect the HELL out of the fact that youre the only mccain supporter here to admit that. :drink:

thats why i can hold your opinion so highly, even in disagreement (and no dan isnt telling me to write this :chuckle: )

is it really that big of a deal? i would say it is if winning the chair in the white house is the main objective for the GOP.

3 words- misappropriation of "funds".

the GOP selected palin for 1 reason. keep her under wraps and unleash the hound on the campaign stops, not to offer, substance, but to attack obama.

obama is like teflon to her attacks. it was a complete miscalculation, and the more we learn about palin the more we see she is all bark and absolutely no bite. the bull dog looks like nothing but an annoying chuihuahua at this point.

i will never be able to convince you guys im not trying to be mean, but i see things for how they are. she is a bust, and i say that knowing mccain still has a great shot of winning the election. if that happens it will be in spite of sarah, not because of her.

revefsreleets

10-11-2008, 09:59 PM

Actually, she was brought on board because of her record. McCain hoped to kill a few birds with one stone. Attack dog was only one of those birds....

These new "findings" won't hurt her that much because the people who liked her before will still like her, and the people who didn't will continue to not.

Mosca

10-11-2008, 10:02 PM

You think the left is ANY different? That's how it comes across, that you think this is unusual or uncommon. It surprises me you would even type that sentence with the implications that you are obviously attaching to it.

And this is an example of the "they're all alike" cynicism I wrote about in another thread, that shark and rev disavowed personally, but which permeates the right. (Nice deflection, by the way.)

Mosca

10-11-2008, 10:03 PM

:pity:

But the eternally perfect Obama has done nothing wrong... not with Ayers, not with interferring with the presidents dealing with Iraq in a personal phone call ... not leaving HIS brother to rot in africa... though he says that we are to be our brother's keeper. Yeah, NOTHING wrong.

Please. Spare me the righteous indignation. It doesn't look good on a group of people that turns a blind eye to Obama's faults.

BUT OBAMA!

Nice deflection!

tony hipchest

10-11-2008, 10:07 PM

Actually, she was brought on board because of her record. McCain hoped to kill a few birds with one stone. Attack dog was only one of those birds....

These new "findings" won't hurt her that much because the people who liked her before will still like her, and the people who didn't will continue to not.not true. her recors is minimal (practically non existant). you cant tell me she was brought on so she could advise mccain on foreign affairs (i hope you didnt buy that load of bs).

she was brought on to pick up disenfranchised hilary supporters, plus the GOP figured her extreme right views would counterbalance the moderate right ones of mccain thus galvanizing the party.

this is true- had obama selected hilary as his running mate, the GOP wouldve in no way placed palin on their ticket. thats why they waited for obama to select biden to make their selection.

in the world of football, this is called allowing the other team to dictate what you do as opposed to "playing your own game".

revefsreleets

10-11-2008, 10:11 PM

not true. her recors is minimal (practically non existant). you cant tell me she was brought on so she could advise mccain on foreign affairs (i hope you didnt buy that load of bs).

she was brought on to pick up disenfranchised hilary supporters, plus the GOP figured her extreme right views would counterbalance the moderate right ones of mccain thus galvanizing the party.

this is true- had obama selected hilary as his running mate, the GOP wouldve in no way placed palin on their ticket. thats why they waited for obama to select biden to make their selection.

in the world of football, this is called allowing the other team to dictate what you do as opposed to "playing your own game".

Her record showed her fighting her own party. There were 3-4 reasons McCain brought her on, not just 1-2. That's the message that McCain should have REALLY pushed but he dropped the ball. This will be remembered as the Presidential race where the guy who raced fast enough and far enough from the sitting President won. Obama did a better job of it...

Preacher

10-11-2008, 10:26 PM

BUT OBAMA!

Nice deflection!

It seems you want a discussion only focused on one side. Not sure how beneficial that is.

My very point... is that both sides are the same, and as blinded to the faults of their boy (or girl) as the other. Oh yeah... and around here.. I hear that a whole lot more from the left than i do the right.

Even in my attempt to show that... you choose not to see it, but rather charge me with deflection... which seemingly proves my point.

tony hipchest

10-11-2008, 10:32 PM

Her record showed her fighting her own party. There were 3-4 reasons McCain brought her on, not just 1-2. That's the message that McCain should have REALLY pushed but he dropped the ball. This will be remembered as the Presidential race where the guy who raced fast enough and far enough from the sitting President won. Obama did a better job of it...

ok. i'll give you that, but c'mon, a hot newscaster taking on small town republican schmucks of alaska?

i know small town and small state politics, and with that small of a voter base, im not overly impressed with her taking on her own party. her being elected there is akin to being voted ms orange county in los angeles. still a far cry from ms. usa.

Mosca

10-11-2008, 10:32 PM

It seems you want a discussion only focused on one side. Not sure how beneficial that is.

My very point... is that both sides are the same, and as blinded to the faults of their boy (or girl) as the other.

Even in my attempt to show that... you choose not to see it, but rather charge me with deflection... which seemingly proves my point.

"Both sides are the same"; there's that right wing cynicism that rev and shark disavowed personally, but that I claim permeates the right. It might not be true for ALL on the right, but nevertheless, it is what they believe.

Preacher

10-11-2008, 10:33 PM

not true. her recors is minimal (practically non existant). you cant tell me she was brought on so she could advise mccain on foreign affairs (i hope you didnt buy that load of bs).

she was brought on to pick up disenfranchised hilary supporters, plus the GOP figured her extreme right views would counterbalance the moderate right ones of mccain thus galvanizing the party.

this is true- had obama selected hilary as his running mate, the GOP wouldve in no way placed palin on their ticket. thats why they waited for obama to select biden to make their selection.

in the world of football, this is called allowing the other team to dictate what you do as opposed to "playing your own game".

OK Tony.. here are the discussions we used to have... and I enjoyed a heck of a lot better.

... I don't think she was brought in PRIMARILY and ONLY for the Hillary supporters. I think she was brought in... and please, lay off the "extreme" charge here, for her mainline conservatism which McCain lacks. But yes, I agree, her job was to galvanize the party, and in many ways, she did do that.

Had Obama selected Hillary, again, your right they would not have selected Palin. However, I think the reason for that was because it would have looked way to much like following the Democrats.

I think the question in foresight was, are the dems dictating the game, or is the GODP trying to exploit a weakness. It is a viable option. However, if you play that game and try to exploit a weakness, and it falls through, then you are caught in a game you don't want to be in.

Preacher

10-11-2008, 10:35 PM

"Both sides are the same"; there's that right wing cynicism that rev and shark disavowed personally, but that I claim permeates the right. It might not be true for ALL on the right, but nevertheless, it is what they believe.

So you beleive what? That the left does not run smear campaigns? That the left does not lie in politics? That the left does not take too much money from rich donors?

My contention is that both sides do it... and it is horrible on both.

Which is why, in another thread I started... I called to "throw ALL the bums out."

and as I edited into another post...

I hear (both sides do it) a whole lot more from the left than i do the right.

Preacher

10-11-2008, 10:37 PM

I see a huge difference between Obama and McCain. Socially and fiscally. More importantly, we run the risk of a liberally run Congress under Nancy Pelosi coupled with a liberally run Senate under Harry Reid with the capper of an uber-liberal President in Obama.

If the American people actually vote for that, they'll deserve what they get. If the war is abruptly ended, I have no idea what long-term repercussions we'll face ibn the Middle-East (it'll be BAD), but I'm sure that the deficit will double. If we stay it'll triple in the next 4 years. 20 trillion versus 30 trillion. And I expect it could get a LOT worse if we socialize medicine, which is VERY possible, maybe even within the first 100 days.

Notice I said equidistant... not equal.

I morally cannot vote for Obama. That leaves me, sadly and disturbingly, with one candidate to vote for.

Earlier in the race I searched for a third party candidate, but couldn't find one.

revefsreleets

10-11-2008, 10:56 PM

I find it interesting that by me applying critical thinking to this particular scenario, I'm being dubbed a cynic.

I think Pragmatist is a much more apropos term.

I do, however, expect that much disappointment lies ahead for those who think that Obama really will "change the world".

He doesn't understand the first principle of tackling a big problem: If you want to eat an elephant you do it one bite at a time. He's trying to swallow it whole.

He'll fail. He can't be everything to everyone, and his contradictory platform will eat him alive in the long-run.

God bless him though if he can find a way to be the first politician ever to truly have it both ways.

tony hipchest

10-11-2008, 11:15 PM

I find it interesting that by me applying critical thinking to this particular scenario, I'm being dubbed a cynic.

I think Pragmatist is a much more apropos term.

I do, however, expect that much disappointment lies ahead for those who think that Obama really will "change the world". .

that is a very EXTREME statement. very few people actually believe he is the biblical second coming.

it is the right wingers who believes this is common thought though, while those grounded in reality know obama is just offering a change from the failed past 8 years of bush (and republican) led politics.

i know you think all those who will vote for obamba are dumb and drink pabst, but the clip of mccain snatching the mic from the old lady in the red dress who thinks obama is an arab proves otherwise.

there are an equal ammount of morons on both sides no matter which one you find yourself on.

Preacher

10-11-2008, 11:20 PM

that is a very EXTREME statement. very few people actually believe he is the biblical second coming.

it is the right wingers who believes this is common thought though, while those grounded in reality know obama is just offering a change from the failed past 8 years of bush (and republican) led politics.

i know you think all those who will vote for obamba are dumb and drink pabst, but the clip of mccain snatching the mic from the old lady in the red dress who thinks obama is an arab proves otherwise.

there are an equal ammount of morons on both sides no matter which one you find yourself on.

First Tony, I applaud the fact that you recognize this fact... and hope you recognize it is true in the parties as well.

Second. and I Honestly want to know.. do you recognize how many loaded words you put in that post? How much rhetoric is embedded there? It makes it almost impossible to have a real conversation about an issue.

It is the same concept as if I was speaking to someone that believed abortion was a choice, and I kept calling them pro-death. It makes me ask if you really care about have these discussions, or are just doing this to stir the poo.

tony hipchest

10-12-2008, 12:10 AM

Second. and I Honestly want to know.. do you recognize how many loaded words you put in that post? How much rhetoric is embedded there? It makes it almost impossible to have a real conversation about an issue.

.of course i do. keep in mind i was responding to revs, and not the board in general.

perhaps i shoulda used quotation marks around all those "loaded words and embedded rhetoric".

i borrowwed "EXTREME" from revs commenting on mosca feeling obama would be shot.

i borrowed the pabst from revs insinuating that the only reason obama has this race won because ignorant pabst drinking fools are gonna vote for him.

i used biblical second coming in reference to revs having "change the world" in quotes. most Christians believe the only one who can truly change the world is Christ.

as for the old lady in the red dress... have you seen the footage? kinda difuses revs earlier assertion of why he thinks obama is gonna win this race.

you know, i like riddles and parables and stuff like that, and probably too often leave things too far in between the lines when i post. its my fault for assuming people will "get it" or even remember a post they read or wrote the day before.

no wonder nobody ever knows what im talking about. i'll have to work on that.

Preacher

10-12-2008, 12:23 AM

of course i do. keep in mind i was responding to revs, and not the board in general.

perhaps i shoulda used quotation marks around all those "loaded words and embedded rhetoric".

i borrowwed "EXTREME" from revs commenting on mosca feeling obama would be shot.

i borrowed the pabst from revs insinuating that the only reason obama has this race won because ignorant pabst drinking fools are gonna vote for him.

i used biblical second coming in reference to revs having "change the world" in quotes. most Christians believe the only one who can truly change the world is Christ.

as for the old lady in the red dress... have you seen the footage? kinda difuses revs earlier assertion of why he thinks obama is gonna win this race.

you know, i like riddles and parables and stuff like that, and probably too often leave things too far in between the lines when i post. its my fault for assuming people will "get it" or even remember a post they read or wrote the day before.

no wonder nobody ever knows what im talking about. i'll have to work on that.

:chuckle:

Tony, that explains quite a bit...

because there are a lot of times, I think you are actually being obstinate... or purposefully provocative, and I couldn't figure out why. That is actually where a number of my posts... and thus frustrations with you over the past few days and weeks have come from.... If I knew you were just cherrypicking quotes having fun, well, it makes me understand your posts a whole lot better!

:drink:

GBMelBlount

10-12-2008, 06:28 AM

Yep, that rascally, playful, fun loving Tony is at it again. :chuckle:

Mosca

10-12-2008, 08:19 AM

I find it interesting that by me applying critical thinking to this particular scenario, I'm being dubbed a cynic.

.

No, I took you and shark at your word and specifically excluded you both. By doing so I didn't intend to cast any doubt on it, and if the implication was there I'll take this opportunity to dispel it. I believe you when you say you are not cynical.

Preacher

10-12-2008, 09:26 AM

No, I took you and shark at your word and specifically excluded you both. By doing so I didn't intend to cast any doubt on it, and if the implication was there I'll take this opportunity to dispel it. I believe you when you say you are not cynical.

No, it seems it is me that he believes is cynical, instead of coming to my conclusions through an intellectually honest pursuit.

lamberts-lost-tooth

10-12-2008, 09:46 AM

No, it seems it is me that he believes is cynical, instead of coming to my conclusions through an intellectually honest pursuit.

Throws them everytime, Preacher.

Havik

10-12-2008, 10:09 AM

Palin is an idiot. All that comes out of her mouth is lies. If McCain gets elected and dies in office, we're in big trouble. As for as Obama "palling around with Ayers", they happen to live in the same neighborhood and worked together on different projects. Obama wasn't even aware of his past when Ayers introduced him to neighbors at his home in 1995. I would be concerned if Obama and Ayers were close, but they aren't. All Palin does is twist the facts to her advantage, and some people are ignorant enough to buy it. I should also mention that McCain has worked with Jesse Helms and Strom Thurmond in the past, both who were pro-segregation. I'm sure McCain was aware of the history of these two men, who attempted to uphold laws that oppressed fellow Americans who happened to be black. That doesn't mean McCain is a racist. I can say the same for Obama, just because he worked with Ayers in the past doesn't mean he ever supported his actions.

Preacher

10-12-2008, 10:33 AM

Palin is an idiot. All that comes out of her mouth is lies. If McCain gets elected and dies in office, we're in big trouble. As for as Obama "palling around with Ayers", they happen to live in the same neighborhood and worked together on different projects. Obama wasn't even aware of his past when Ayers introduced him to neighbors at his home in 1995. I would be concerned if Obama and Ayers were close, but they aren't. All Palin does is twist the facts to her advantage, and some people are ignorant enough to buy it. I should also mention that McCain has worked with Jesse Helms and Strom Thurmond in the past, both who were pro-segregation. I'm sure McCain was aware of the history of these two men, who attempted to uphold laws that oppressed fellow Americans who happened to be black. That doesn't mean McCain is a racist. I can say the same for Obama, just because he worked with Ayers in the past doesn't mean he ever supported his actions.

Cmon preacher...didnt you know this guy CANT be an Obama supporter?... Its poor Tony, Dan & Mosca against the WORLD....We dont have any more room for forum Martyrs. :crying01:

Position has already been filled.

Leftoverhard

10-12-2008, 01:32 PM

I looked all over to see if anyone posted this yet - hope this puts the Ayers thing to bed for some you. It's a letter to the editor of the NYTimes from the lead prosecuter of the Weathermen case. P.S. The end of his letter is a real kick in the pants.

As the lead federal prosecutor of the Weathermen in the 1970s (I was then chief of the criminal division in the Eastern District of Michigan and took over the Weathermen prosecution in 1972), I am amazed and outraged that Senator Barack Obama is being linked to William Ayers’s terrorist activities 40 years ago when Mr. Obama was, as he has noted, just a child.

Although I dearly wanted to obtain convictions against all the Weathermen, including Bill Ayers, I am very pleased to learn that he has become a responsible citizen.

Because Senator Obama recently served on a board of a charitable organization with Mr. Ayers cannot possibly link the senator to acts perpetrated by Mr. Ayers so many years ago.

I do take issue with the statement in your news article that the Weathermen indictment was dismissed because of “prosecutorial misconduct.” It was dismissed because of illegal activities, including wiretaps, break-ins and mail interceptions, initiated by John N. Mitchell, attorney general at that time, and W. Mark Felt, an F.B.I. assistant director.

William C. Ibershof

Mill Valley, Calif., Oct. 8, 2008

The source if you need it: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/10/opinion/l10ayers.html?_r=1&ref=opinion&oref=slogin

Preacher

10-12-2008, 05:20 PM

I looked all over to see if anyone posted this yet - hope this puts the Ayers thing to bed for some you. It's a letter to the editor of the NYTimes from the lead prosecuter of the Weathermen case. P.S. The end of his letter is a real kick in the pants.

As the lead federal prosecutor of the Weathermen in the 1970s (I was then chief of the criminal division in the Eastern District of Michigan and took over the Weathermen prosecution in 1972), I am amazed and outraged that Senator Barack Obama is being linked to William Ayers’s terrorist activities 40 years ago when Mr. Obama was, as he has noted, just a child.

Although I dearly wanted to obtain convictions against all the Weathermen, including Bill Ayers, I am very pleased to learn that he has become a responsible citizen.

Because Senator Obama recently served on a board of a charitable organization with Mr. Ayers cannot possibly link the senator to acts perpetrated by Mr. Ayers so many years ago.

I do take issue with the statement in your news article that the Weathermen indictment was dismissed because of “prosecutorial misconduct.” It was dismissed because of illegal activities, including wiretaps, break-ins and mail interceptions, initiated by John N. Mitchell, attorney general at that time, and W. Mark Felt, an F.B.I. assistant director.

William C. Ibershof

Mill Valley, Calif., Oct. 8, 2008

The source if you need it: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/10/opinion/l10ayers.html?_r=1&ref=opinion&oref=slogin

I think this man misses the point of my and many other people worry.

It is the worry that if Obama finds his political views acceptable company, then without knowing much about Obama himself (not long enough in the public eye), it makes one start asking questions about what Obama himself finds acceptable.

That is my worry about this association. That and the question of how easily can he dismiss past associations of people, because there are some people in power in foreign govts. that we should NEVER deal with based on their previous associations (Iranian president.... one of the leaders of the revolution and directly responsibible for the hostages).

Associated Press Writers
Tue Oct 14, 4:13 PM ET
ANCHORAGE, Alaska - Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin, whose reformer image took a hit in a report concluding she abused her powers to settle a family score, has skirted state ethics rules before for personal benefit and used her office to help friends and supporters, according to an Associated Press review of records.

Palin's first try at statewide office, after six years as mayor of Wasilla, was an unsuccessful run for lieutenant governor in 2002. To raise money, she improperly used her City Hall office and equipment, city records show. A year later she would make headlines by blasting a fellow Republican for, among other things, improperly using his government position to boost his campaign.

Then, in 2006, Palin won the governor's race with a vow to reform state ethics. But in less than two years, she has repeatedly taken actions that violated her own stated standards for ethical behavior — if not state law. In the process, the Republican vice presidential nominee has become much like the old-school politicians she attacked during her rise to power.

Some examples:

wow. tons of examples contained in link..... too may to list here.

JPPT1974

10-15-2008, 12:37 AM

Everybody is down Palin's throat, all of a sudden.
It is like, everybody is making her out to be the scapegoat!

Vis

10-15-2008, 06:37 AM

Palin vindicated?
Governor offers Orwellian spin

(10/13/08 22:02:58)
Sarah Palin's reaction to the Legislature's Troopergate report is an embarrassment to Alaskans and the nation.

She claims the report "vindicates" her. She said that the investigation found "no unlawful or unethical activity on my part."

Her response is either astoundingly ignorant or downright Orwellian.

Page 8, Finding Number One of the report says: "I find that Governor Sarah Palin abused her power by violating Alaska Statute 39.52.110(a) of the Alaska Executive Branch Ethics Act."

In plain English, she did something "unlawful." She broke the state ethics law.

Perhaps Gov. Palin has been too busy to actually read the Troopergate report. Perhaps she is relying on briefings from McCain campaign spinmeisters.

That's the charitable interpretation.

Because if she had actually read it, she couldn't claim "vindication" with a straight face.

Palin asserted that the report found "there was no abuse of authority at all in trying to get Officer Wooten fired."

In fact, the report concluded that "impermissible pressure was placed on several subordinates in order to advance a personal agenda, to wit: to get Trooper Michael Wooten fired."

Palin's response is the kind of political "big lie" that George Orwell warned against. War is peace. Black is white. Up is down.

Gov. Palin and her camp trumpeted the report's second finding: that she was within her legal authority to fire Public Safety Commissioner Walt Monegan. But the report also said it's likely one of the reasons she fired him was his failure to get rid of her ex-brother-in-law trooper.

That's not "vindication," and surely Gov. Palin knows it.

Gov. Palin does have a defense. She could have said:

"I'm gratified that the report confirmed what I said all along, that I had the authority to terminate Walt Monegan as public safety commissioner.

"I absolutely disagree that I violated state ethics law. In repeatedly complaining about trooper Mike Wooten, Todd and I were not pursuing a personal vendetta. We were trying to protect the integrity of the Alaska State Troopers from having an arrogant, almost-out-of-control law-breaker in their ranks. Because the action we were seeking was in the public interest, not purely our personal interest, there is no ethics law violation."

Gov. Palin and her husband felt so passionately about Wooten because the case was so personal to them. Their passion blinded them to any other considerations.

They had no sense that the power of the governor's office carries a special responsibility not to use it to settle family scores. They had no sense that legal restrictions might prevent the troopers from firing Wooten. They had no sense that persistent queries from the governor's office might be perceived as pressure to bend state personnel laws.

Gov. Palin and her husband were obsessed with Wooten the way Capt. Ahab was obsessed with the Great White Whale. No Wooten, no peace.

Has Gov. Palin committed an impeachable offense? Hardly.

Is what she did indictable? No.

But it wasn't appropriate, especially for someone elected as an ethical reformer. And her Orwellian claims of "vindication" make this blemish on her record look even worse.

Palin's response is the kind of political "big lie" that George Orwell warned against. War is peace. Black is white. Up is down.

Their passion blinded them to any other considerations....

They had no sense that the power of the governor's office carries a special responsibility not to use it to settle family scores.

Gov. Palin and her husband were obsessed with Wooten the way Capt. Ahab was obsessed with the Great White Whale.

her Orwellian claims of "vindication" make this blemish on her record look even worse.
.

Vis
Take a look at the highlights...and please explain how this peace is a fair and accurate news article...and not an op-ed designed for division.

Since you know that we are all made a pact...and are trying to stick to the facts and present our opinions without causing a flame-war...it would be appreciated by those on both sides of this election if you would use a little more discretion in the articles you post.

Leftoverhard

10-18-2008, 10:27 AM

Vis
Take a look at the highlights...and please explain how this peace is a fair and accurate news article...and not an op-ed designed for division.

Since you know that we are all made a pact...and are trying to stick to the facts and present our opinions without causing a flame-war...it would be appreciated by those on both sides of this election if you would use a little more discretion in the articles you post.

LLT - I think with the "pact" some of us made, it is open to interpretation what we do with that. Since we can't control what other people post, I think the onus is on each of us not to react as emotionally as some of us were before. I've seen plenty of posts since the great pact of mid-october ' 08 that could start a war. I understand where you're coming from.

lamberts-lost-tooth

10-18-2008, 10:36 AM

LLT - I think with the "pact" some of us made, it is open to interpretation what we do with that. Since we can't control what other people post, I think the onus is on each of us not to react as emotionally as some of us were before. I've seen plenty of posts since the great pact of mid-october ' 08 that could start a war. I understand where you're coming from.

...appreciate that.

I just hate seeing posts with no news value whatsoever...whose sole purpose is to incite and divide... nationally and on a smaller scale, in this forum. There are plenty of genuine news articles about the Palin report....and since this was obvious a flaming op-ed.... it makes one wonder what the purpose was.

MACH1

10-18-2008, 10:45 AM

Vis,
Not trying to blast you or start a war. This goes for anyone else also.
But that article is a wee bit biased. Try getting one with the whole story and facts. Hint: Its has little something to do with a tazer, 11 year old and a officer using the tazer for disciplining his 11 year old.

cubanstogie

10-18-2008, 10:56 AM

Palin disgusts me. I think McCain made a great move by picking her as a running mate. She can help ensure that he doesn't ever see the White House.

She disgusts you, why is that. She must hang out with terrorists, racists and associate with organizations that commit voter fraud. That would disgust me too.

cubanstogie

10-18-2008, 01:05 PM

Palin vindicated?
Governor offers Orwellian spin

(10/13/08 22:02:58)
Sarah Palin's reaction to the Legislature's Troopergate report is an embarrassment to Alaskans and the nation.

She claims the report "vindicates" her. She said that the investigation found "no unlawful or unethical activity on my part."

Her response is either astoundingly ignorant or downright Orwellian.

Page 8, Finding Number One of the report says: "I find that Governor Sarah Palin abused her power by violating Alaska Statute 39.52.110(a) of the Alaska Executive Branch Ethics Act."

In plain English, she did something "unlawful." She broke the state ethics law.

Perhaps Gov. Palin has been too busy to actually read the Troopergate report. Perhaps she is relying on briefings from McCain campaign spinmeisters.

That's the charitable interpretation.

Because if she had actually read it, she couldn't claim "vindication" with a straight face.

Palin asserted that the report found "there was no abuse of authority at all in trying to get Officer Wooten fired."

In fact, the report concluded that "impermissible pressure was placed on several subordinates in order to advance a personal agenda, to wit: to get Trooper Michael Wooten fired."

Palin's response is the kind of political "big lie" that George Orwell warned against. War is peace. Black is white. Up is down.

Gov. Palin and her camp trumpeted the report's second finding: that she was within her legal authority to fire Public Safety Commissioner Walt Monegan. But the report also said it's likely one of the reasons she fired him was his failure to get rid of her ex-brother-in-law trooper.

That's not "vindication," and surely Gov. Palin knows it.

Gov. Palin does have a defense. She could have said:

"I'm gratified that the report confirmed what I said all along, that I had the authority to terminate Walt Monegan as public safety commissioner.

"I absolutely disagree that I violated state ethics law. In repeatedly complaining about trooper Mike Wooten, Todd and I were not pursuing a personal vendetta. We were trying to protect the integrity of the Alaska State Troopers from having an arrogant, almost-out-of-control law-breaker in their ranks. Because the action we were seeking was in the public interest, not purely our personal interest, there is no ethics law violation."

Gov. Palin and her husband felt so passionately about Wooten because the case was so personal to them. Their passion blinded them to any other considerations.

They had no sense that the power of the governor's office carries a special responsibility not to use it to settle family scores. They had no sense that legal restrictions might prevent the troopers from firing Wooten. They had no sense that persistent queries from the governor's office might be perceived as pressure to bend state personnel laws.

Gov. Palin and her husband were obsessed with Wooten the way Capt. Ahab was obsessed with the Great White Whale. No Wooten, no peace.

Has Gov. Palin committed an impeachable offense? Hardly.

Is what she did indictable? No.

But it wasn't appropriate, especially for someone elected as an ethical reformer. And her Orwellian claims of "vindication" make this blemish on her record look even worse.

so unethical, much worse than getting a blow job by an impressionable intern and lying about it. Palin never denied the incident so its basically an objective opinion whether she abused position or looking out for constituents. Pretty petty this is all you could dig up.