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View Poll Results: Is Billups good enough for this team for the next 1 or 2 years?

A sample size of 8 or even triple that means nothing. Further this gem totaly invalidates the poll considering its an unknown based off of your hopes.

This question is based on the possibility of us not resigning him for 14 mil but rather a lower salary for 1 or 2 more years.

I already stated I would resign him if we could do it for cheap and fill other needs. I know you created this thread to try and prove something to me and for that I am honored but it fails for this reason:

Originally Posted by TR1LL10N

Fair points and at 2-3 mil a year I have no problems with Billups. My issue is what we do moving forward. I would take Billups running the point another year or so at 2-3 milif the saved money allowed us to fill other needs. A pass first PG is certainly not our only need. I just hope Amare doesn't suffer from Billups score first mentality.

I could care less about "next year" when we're on the verge fighting in the playoffs.

We have a CHAMPION running the PG position with a boat load of playoff experience & even championship experience in Billups. Excellent team leader. Fights like a true playoff warrior. Knows how to control & lead an offense through the TOUGH playoffs & has NEVER had two elite superstars to work with. The sky is the limit for us this year with CB. CB, Melo & Amare WILL compete with ANY triple-threat.

Whats all this talk about "not paying" Billups 14M? Not even Kobe, Nash, Kidd, KG or Duncan would get 14-15M right now.

It's foolish to even TALK about CB getting 14M this offseason when anyone with half a brain knows he's not getting anything close to that. Has Melo got an extension from NY? Of course. Has Billups got a 14M extension yet? Exactly. Because he was never expected to get one to BEGIN WITH...

I could care less about "next year" when we're on the verge fighting in the playoffs.

We have a CHAMPION running the PG position with a boat load of playoff experience & even championship experience in Billups. Excellent team leader. Fights like a true playoff warrior. Knows how to control & lead an offense through the TOUGH playoffs & has NEVER had two elite superstars to work with. The sky is the limit for us this year with CB. CB, Melo & Amare WILL compete with ANY triple-threat.

Whats all this talk about "not paying" Billups 14M? Not even Kobe, Nash, Kidd, KG or Duncan would get 14-15M right now.

It's foolish to even TALK about CB getting 14M this offseason when anyone with half a brain knows he's not getting anything close to that. Has Melo got an extension from NY? Of course. Has Billups got a 14M extension yet? Exactly. Because he was never expected to get one to BEGIN WITH...

What are you talking about? An extension is different than a team option dude.

Billups Buy-out

This is my understanding of Billups' contract terms. The Knicks have the right to buy him out of next year's $14.2M contract for $3.7M. If we buy him out, the $3.7M will count against our cap -- at least under the current CBA. I believe that we have to exercise our buy out rights within 5 days after the basketball season ends. This is a very short window.

if we do not buy him out, we will be about $3M over the current $58M CBA cap for next year. We will have zero room for any meaningful free agent. If we buy him out, we save about $10.5M which will put us around $7M under the cap.

Turiaf is an asset with a player option and contract for next year at $4.360M. Douglas is another asset with a team option at $1.145M. Fields is an asset at a bargain basement price. I expect we want to keep these assets, though perhaps Turiaf could be used as a chip in a trade. We have no other real assets. Presumably we want to sign Shawne Williams and that will put us further over cap.

If we keep Billups and a new CBA is little different from the current and there will have been no lock-out, then we are going to have essentially the same team we currently have plus a draft pick and perhaps a mid-level exception.

But I think there is a good chance of a lockout for perhaps an appreciable part of next year. When there is finally a new CBA worked out, there may well be forced extensions for players like Billups who will have lost significant amounts in their last contract year. Despite all his talents, I think we have to buy out Billups and then when the dust settles on a new CBA perhaps begin a new negotiation or otherwise use whatever cap sapce we might have. We just do not know what the new CBA will look like. I would prefer to go into a new CBA without a $14.2M fixed price for Billups.

As for the argument that if we keep him we will have a valuable expiring contract to deal before the 2012 trade deadline -- well, those things have not worked out so well for us in the past. Also, I believe it may be possible to trade Billups within that 5 day window after the season ends. His contract would be Dampier like. The team that takes him gets a $14M contract, perhaps by giving up a $14M or so contract, but then can exercise the buy-out and save $10M. Consider this, both Camby and Kaman have contracts expiring in 2012, one at $9.2M and the other at $12.2M. Of course, I might well be totally wrong on the viability of such a transaction.

I could care less about "next year" when we're on the verge fighting in the playoffs.

We have a CHAMPION running the PG position with a boat load of playoff experience & even championship experience in Billups. Excellent team leader. Fights like a true playoff warrior. Knows how to control & lead an offense through the TOUGH playoffs & has NEVER had two elite superstars to work with. The sky is the limit for us this year with CB. CB, Melo & Amare WILL compete with ANY triple-threat.

Whats all this talk about "not paying" Billups 14M? Not even Kobe, Nash, Kidd, KG or Duncan would get 14-15M right now.

It's foolish to even TALK about CB getting 14M this offseason when anyone with half a brain knows he's not getting anything close to that. Has Melo got an extension from NY? Of course. Has Billups got a 14M extension yet? Exactly. Because he was never expected to get one to BEGIN WITH...

A sample size of 8 or even triple that means nothing. Further this gem totaly invalidates the poll considering its an unknown based off of your hopes.

I already stated I would resign him if we could do it for cheap and fill other needs. I know you created this thread to try and prove something to me and for that I am honored but it fails for this reason:

^^That was posted before this lame thread was created.

Wait wait wait-a-minute
At first you were talking about his skills...

Originally Posted by TR1LL10N

There I said it! Crucify me if you wish but I simply don't like his game at 35 years of age. He does not facilitate the offense competently, pulls up for too many bad shots and seems to be turning the ball over at an alarming rate. This guy is a champion and future Hall of Famer but to me it looks like one of two things:

Then it was his age (which you were off by a year)

Originally Posted by TR1LL10N

1. He has lost his game at the age of 35.

and although you sounded reactionary (and hypocritical),
you took it here with speculation (as you love to point out)...

Originally Posted by TR1LL10N

2. His heart is not in it for NYC and he is already looking for the nearest exit back to his hometown for a front office job.

then this... you contradict yourself on so many levels (because you were emotional following a bad outing)

Originally Posted by TR1LL10N

Either way, our offense looks stagnant and Amare has been less effective due to the lack of orchestration coming from the PG position. People thought STAT needed Nash and Felton proved otherwise but STAT does need a pass first PG who is going to allow Amare to finish or give him the ball in his sweet spots.

and finally the icing...

Originally Posted by TR1LL10N

Billiups will hopefully turn it on in the playoffs and may even win a game or two for us in the post season but as of now Billiups has been a big disappointment and the biggest reason we are struggling.

One or two games? Hello!

So you tried to qualify your emo rant with nonsense- and continue to do so for pages with spin technology?

Ladies and gentlemen... LETS END THIS NOW.

we'll have to make a distinction between the casual fan, and the knowledgeable ones.

I think a realistic outcome if we're gonna pursue the buyout & re-sign route is Billups getting at least a 3 year $30M type offer after a buyout. That would reduce his cap hit on the payroll by $4M for next season which might open up enough space to sign a legitimate C, which is our biggest need. That would be the biggest benefit of working a deal with Billups like this. The Knicks would benefit in a big way if you look at it in those terms.

But there also needs to be some kind of incentive overall gain for Billups to agree to a buyout & re-sign with this team. If the net gain for him is only 2 extra years at around a midlevel type salary for the '12 & '13 seasons, then he really stands to gain nothing out of the deal, so we need to go higher than that to get him to play ball IMO.

and although you sounded reactionary (and hypocritical),
you took it here with speculation (as you love to point out)...

then this... you contradict yourself on so many levels (because you were emotional following a bad outing)

and finally the icing...

One or two games? Hello!

So you tried to qualify your emo rant with nonsense- and continue to do so for pages with spin technology?

Ladies and gentlemen... LETS END THIS NOW.

we'll have to make a distinction between the casual fan, and the knowledgeable ones.

You're a tool trying to play a game of gotcha instead of actually debating me on the merits of the topic. Failing by the way. How about you spend your limited intellect and energy on the topic rather than going to extreme lenghts to attack the messenger?

None of those statements contradict each other and fall in line with an overall critique of Billups. So yes, I have issues with:

His current skill level at his age and the obvious decline since his prime
I questioned his desire to be in NYC and still do
I questioned his style with regards to maximizing Amare and still do
I question his worth at 14mil a year and still do

Whats funny is that you quote multiple things from the same post and try to make them seem like I am changing or contradicting myself as if the only way to lay out an indictment were to state every issue in one long run on sentence.

P.S. Oh and I stand by my pragmatic approach that the Knicks have more needs than just a pass first PG so if we can have Billups for cheap and use the saved money to fill other needs such as a rebounding/defending center than I am fine with Billups being a stopgap at 2-3 mil a year until we can find a replacement.

You're a tool trying to play a game of gotcha instead of actually debating me on the merits of the topic. Failing by the way. How about you spend your limited intellect and energy on the topic rather than going to extreme lenghts to attack the messenger?

None of those statements contradict each other and fall in line with an overall critique of Billups. So yes, I have issues with:

His current skill level at his age and the obvious decline since his prime
I questioned his desire to be in NYC and still do
I questioned his style with regards to maximizing Amare and still do
I question his worth at 14mil a year and still do

Whats funny is that you quote multiple things from the same post and try to make them seem like I am changing or contradicting myself as if the only way to lay out an indictment were to state every issue in one long run on sentence.

P.S. Oh and I stand by my pragmatic approach that the Knicks have more needs than just a pass first PG so if we can have Billups for cheap and use the saved money to fill other needs such as a rebounding/defending center than I am fine with Billups being a stopgap at 2-3 mil a year until we can find a replacement.

You can't fool me. I know its frustrating, but you should be use to superior intellectuals pointing out your short-comings by now.

We know you have trouble admitting when you're wrong. We also know its easier and masculine to be able to do so instead of backtracking and spinning. No matter how much you argue or prove me right about you, no matter how many quotes and pages you write instead of considering your limited basketball knowledge...

your reputation as an argumentative nerd is solidified. You've been made to look foolish for pages and still can't accept that.

A wise man (Red- yes I'm referring to myself in the 3rd person) once told you to chill because you look foolish, and you did exactly what you do that has led many to have little respect for your bb knowledge...

Kept on being a clueless nerd with a need for validation on a forum.smh

As I said, I've already exposed you and your female tendancies as an arguer. What's funny is you're so enamored and insistant on arguing (not debating or discussing) you didn't even realize when some posters actually agreeing with you- you idiot.

You were so hell-bent on being an argumentative female, it went right over your head when no one disagreed with you.

Check your chromosomes, consider you may be a hermaphrodite, idk, but please stop the girly nerd sh*t. If you're a man, act like one and admit everything isn't win or lose, and in this case you can admit you were wrong.

You can't fool me. I know its frustrating, but you should be use to superior intellectuals pointing out your short-comings by now.

We know you have trouble admitting when you're wrong. We also know its easier and masculine to be able to do so instead of backtracking and spinning. No matter how much you argue or prove me right about you, no matter how many quotes and pages you write instead of considering your limited basketball knowledge...

your reputation as an argumentative nerd is solidified. You've been made to look foolish for pages and still can't accept that.

A wise man (Red- yes I'm referring to myself in the 3rd person) once told you to chill because you look foolish, and you did exactly what you do that has led many to have little respect for your bb knowledge...

Kept on being a clueless nerd with a need for validation on a forum.smh

As I said, I've already exposed you and your female tendancies as an arguer. What's funny is you're so enamored and insistant on arguing (not debating or discussing) you didn't even realize when some posters actually agreeing with you- you idiot.

You were so hell-bent on being an argumentative female, it went right over your head when no one disagreed with you.

Check your chromosomes, consider you may be a hermaphrodite, idk, but please stop the girly nerd sh*t. If you're a man, act like one and admit everything isn't win or lose, and in this case you can admit you were wrong.

So a whole long post about me and not the topic... I'm not surprised since it's clear you are obsessed with me.

If I am wrong you should have no problem quoting me and actually providing a rebuttal. Sadly, you have yet to do so and would rather chop up one post into multiple quotes and try to paint them as contradictory simply by asserting it. Well I assert you have a bleeding vagina. Does that make it fact?

I find it funny that you have the gaul to call anyone argumentative when you have created one emotional thread after another often about the same topic. I create one thread giving my opinion and you straight lose it! Pages of rants and distortions and when thats not enough to quell your raging emotional fire you go and create a completely new thread on the same subject! A thread dedicated and inspired by me, a thread designed to get my attention. A thread designed to draw me into another one of your emo driven non-sequitur pseudo debates that revolve more around me then the actual topic. You are a silly transparent red nosed clown who is still trying to settle the score months later.

I know you feel you have a battery in your back because my opinion on Billups is in the minority. That is fine, continue to beat your drum my pink bunny and take solace in the warmth of the majority opinion. I will continue to be the KO nerd who brings facts, well thought out points and stats to the debate and you can continue to be an emotion driven female with hot flashes because of too much estrogen.

If you actually care to discuss the topic I will be glad to debate you. If any of these points are wrong prove it:

His current skill level at his age and the obvious decline since his prime
I questioned his desire to be in NYC and still do
I questioned his style with regards to maximizing Amare and still do
I question his worth at 14mil a year and still do

I don't think Trill has limited basketball knowledge. All of us can get it wrong every now and again..

That said, Trill, you almost roasted yourself w this Billups madness. Almost.

I think deep down you know you were mistaken in your assessment of him by:

1. Saying he's basically washed up at 34.

Many players still play at a very high level at that age. And, it's clear he was injured @ the time you created your thread about him.

& 2. By saying his hearts not in it.

Billups then came out a couple days later saying he'd like to say in NY ,lol. He's also a truely classy, professional that will give his all no matter what team he plays for, unless he's precluded from giving 100% due to something like an INJURY..

I think you'll continue to be proved wrong about the above as we get into the playoffs and Billups shows what heroic performer he can be.

I don't think Trill has limited basketball knowledge. All of us can get it wrong every now and again..

That said, Trill, you almost roasted yourself w this Billups madness. Almost.

I think deep down you know you were mistaken in your assessment of him by:

1. Saying he's basically washed up at 34.

Many players still play at a very high level at that age. And, it's clear he was injured @ the time you created your thread about him.

& 2. By saying his hearts not in it.

Billups then came out a couple days later saying he'd like to say in NY ,lol. He's also a truely classy, professional that will give his all no matter what team he plays for, unless he's precluded from giving 100% due to something like an INJURY..

I think you'll continue to be proved wrong about the above as we get into the playoffs and Billups shows what heroic performer he can be.

Once the playoffs come around... Billups is a problem..

Meh. You agree with my MAIN criticism about his style of play and almost every one agrees he is not worth 14 mil a year. Most people value him at around 2-3 mil which is fine. At this point in his career he is a 2-3mil dollar caliber player.

BTW, lets look at this part of my original post on this subject:

Billiups will hopefully turn it on in the playoffs and may even win a game or two for us in the post season

^^So again, another point we agree on.

I think my opinion while in the minority is not unreasonable. It is not based on my gut, emotion or personality and has always been based on production and style of play.

P.S. Billups did indeed state he wants to play in NYC but that was after being traded and after clearly being on record stating more than once that he wanted to stay in Denver. Only players that are headcases ever overtly say something negative about their current team especially when just joining it. Further, Billups is due 14mil next year, do you think he wants to lose 12 of that for the sake of venting his feelings? Of course not!

P.P.S. This is always about what to do moving forward because we are in a post season push after the trade deadline. Hence why I hope and acknowledged he can prove valuable in the post season. Again, its what to do moving forward.

P.P.P.S. I also knew when writing my original post that I would be in the minority hence why I sated at the beginning about crucifying me. I don't expect everyone to agree with me and I am happy to debate the subject. Sadly some would rather attack, distort and troll rather than debate. (not you)