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WriterSPNerContributor

My behaviour over the last few weeks is vexing me, it is causing me concern.

I did not join this forum to correct others, or impose my view of Sikhism on another, I did not join to discover answers to my own questions and then force others to accept my answers, yet I increasingly find my posts becoming quite forceful, sarcastic, to those whose views I do not agree with. In particular I am finding myself more and more frustrated by the growing Hinduism within Sikhism, and I find myself getting quite irritated by views that I feel are misplaced and misguided, I am getting to the point where I just want to get along with everyone and respect the individuality of all, and the views of all, but how can I do this when such views, I feel are tainting the opinions of people coming into Sikhi, looking for answers, and who am I to set a standard, or even uphold a standard, when there is so much difference of opinion.

Is it Sikh like to defend what I feel is right, even though they remain my own personal opinions, or is it Sikh like to police opinion so that it is in line with what I believe in

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ੴ / Ik▫oaŉkār

I believe in a simpler version of what it is that we stand for or a Sikh stands for?

Recognizing wisdom in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and using it to develop ways for living among rest of creation in consonance.

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We need to recognize that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is not a recipe book and lot of the issues come when people treat it so. People see name of a Hindu God, a reference to Hell or Heaven, a reference to many or 8,400,000 life forms. Right away it starts to go tangential. The logic being if if it is mentioned then it creates confirmation of such existence. When one does not relate to wisdom but to words and in generally out of context, lot of bad things happen and it is basically a way to diminish the wisdom in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and slowly sow seeds for its marginalization.

As Sikhs I do not believe it is for us to diminish or undermine other religions. In the same token, if Guru ji in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji have clarified misconceptions whether religious or not, we cannot simply ignore these either to be politically correct. This specially applies in discourse, posting, expressions in different media. Sikhism is like Salmon in pool full of huge sharks or traditional religions. Sikhism maneuvers around these sharks who are bent on destroying it in a meal. Even when the sharks recognize the beauty of Salmon because they believe in their arrogance of bigness, it matters not. People are not blind of thought, they choose not to see or accept. It is OK for such people at personal level. However if they are going to show up as pious of the pious and bad and you can see right through it, such need to be called.

Sikhs, Guru ji and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji stands for something. If we are thankful for the blessing we have received from Guru ji and in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, it behooves upon us to be at least minimally thankful so that it does not go by the wayside. Being thankful is declaring your learning, lsitening to criticism and defending as appropriate. Sikhism is not a passive or submissive state of mind although with the practices and injections of exterior influences large number of people are moving towards the easy way out and forgetting what it means to be a Sikh.

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I think its really important foremost to acknowledge our own incompleteness, our own flaws first. Everyone has them, as people. And imo, thats what you should look at when looking at another; the person, the intent of their heart, not just what they're screaming at the top of their lungs. You screaming back does nothing but take YOU out of your conviction. And that conviction should not be so prone to emotion, so insecure that just anybody can set it off, your not a puppet. Second, Sikhi itself is a greater force than any individual person can claim, rely on that rather than thinking or attempting to defend or carry the ideology on your own.

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ੴ / Ik▫oaŉkār

Navdeep88 ji I greatly dislike this one line not because you post it but it is a general line used in many Kathas and by many Kathavachiks. So please nothing personal with you.

I think its really important foremost to acknowledge our own incompleteness, our own flaws first.

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This line creates a mental picture of disgrace, I seen young people listening just turn into passive blobs, this is the most damaging trend supported by the passivity is Sikhism approach. Sikhism is uplifting. It does not need to hanker on or belittle Sikhs of a focus on finding own faults and about how bad they really are. Sikhs need to take pride in how well off they are and how blessed and relatively better off they are in spirituality thanks due to Guru ji and SGGS.

Such situations bother me a lot and I feel helpless and I usually get up and leave.

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Navdeep88 ji I greatly dislike this one line not because you post it but it is a general line used in many Kathas and by many Kathavachiks. So please nothing personal with you.

This line creates a mental picture of disgrace, I seen young people listening just turn into passive blobs, this is the most damaging trend supported by the passivity is Sikhism approach. Sikhism is uplifting. It does not need to hanker on or belittle Sikhs of a focus on finding own faults and about how bad they really are. Sikhs need to take pride in how well off they are and how blessed and relatively better off they are in spirituality thanks due to Guru ji and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Such situations bother me a lot and I feel helpless and I usually get up and leave.

Just some thoughts.

Sat Sri Akal.

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Oh really, I feel its not about feeling bad about who you are, but about humility. you however are free to take it as you like, not my problem. i wrote what i wrote from my heart, if that somehow irks you or makes you uncomfortable, you're free to ignore it.

like i said let bygones be bygones, i have no issue being a bygone for you. chao.

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ੴ / Ik▫oaŉkār

Navdeep88 ji I generally find Sikhs as an ocean of humility bar some of course. At perhaps on par with Buddhism pacifists. So I honestly believe that the focus on good and great in Silks is missive and that is what bothers me. This is not make others feel bad but to make self in a state of mind that creates positive energy to do much positive.

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ੴ / Ik▫oaŉkār

"Such situations bother me a lot and I feel helpless and I usually get up and leave."

I'm about to say something that may come off as hurtful so apologies in advance. maybe you feel that way b/c you're afraid of your emotions.

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Not at all. My feelings are genuine and did not develop in one visit but over very many years. I can put such elements of Katha aside but feel for others. May be I should not and they may be doing what I do. I am not an Amritdhari Sikh whose interjections would be much appreciated if I spoke up at such times. That is my handicap. That is all.

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WriterSPNer

Reading both Navdeep's and Ambarsaria's views I think I can understand both points.
In your own sense, you are both correct.
I believe it has a lot to do with PERSONALITY. We all have different personalities, strengths and weaknesses. If we didn't, life could be pretty boring.

It is these differences in personalities that play a huge role in how we get along with one another. We have to make room for each other, a little give and take along the way.

I mean, if me and my wife had the exact same personalities, let's say we both liked same colours, food, music, cars, art, I mean we both had the exact same habits. We would eventually find it difficult to get along. Our life would become quite boring, there would be no give and take.

Just like in the above posts, we mention humility
Now to many of us, certainly me, being humble and conquering my EGO becomes easier if I keep reminding myself 'I'm no good, everyone else is better' etc......etc..... However, some (Ambarsaria ji) don't like to think this way..They can be humble and conquer their own ego's in a different manner.. THIS IS GOOD.
As this positive attitude keeps you in a good mental and physical shape. Staying well away from neagtivies. It brings confidence and keeps you away from your own fears(negativity). I say fears, as I think our personal fears have another huge role, conquering your fears also brings positive, success and generally the best out of your own personality
.
Navdeep mentions 'being afraid of your emotions'- This is correct, it's very similar to, being afraid of your fears, and we overcome this by A) not allowing them to dominate or come into the limelight, by staying in the opposite more positive direction (Ambarsaria's comment) or B) facing them, accepting them and then convincing ourselves that the FEAR is JUST A PERCEPTION, that we have self created. Thus by lowering self esteem, trying to be humble, convincing one-self that I am not as worthy as those around me etc.. etc ....-then eventually the person overcomes this perception of fear.

Humilty,ego and fear all go hand in hand. There is no right or wrong way of conquering your ego and fears.

This is just my personal view, it is not learned and may well be wrong.

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HARRY HALLAR Ji,
Read SGGS as many times as you can and only try to listen what GuRu is saying.
I am sure you will come out of this confusion of your own.Since this will be your own conviction thru GuRu.You will never feel diturbed at all.
P.S..If possible read Gurmukhi version of SGGS .

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SPNer

HARRY HALLAR Ji,
Read Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as many times as you can and only try to listen what GuRu is saying.
I am sure you will come out of this confusion of your own.Since this will be your own conviction thru GuRu.You will never feel diturbed at all.
P.S..If possible read Gurmukhi version of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji .

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SPNer

I know exactly where you are coming from. I have read all your posts. I agree with 99.9 of what you say. Again efforts are made by others divert and distract you because you speak the truth. Keep up the good work, its really appreciated :blueturban:

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ੴ / Ik▫oaŉkār

I know exactly where you are coming from. I have read all your posts. I agree with 99.9 of what you say. Again efforts are made by others divert and distract you because you speak the truth. Keep up the good work, its really appreciated :blueturban:

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BaljinderS veer thanks. People do treat us as babies sometimes, which is unfortunate for them. :lame:

Another line of distraction is "just read Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and do nothing". You can see its application by Prakash.S.Bagga ji often. While inherently obviously not wrong statement. It puts all actions of practical nature into oblivion and perpetuates the mess for eternity and waits for the perfect moment when everyone would have read and understood Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and problems will go away by itself. I think another name I can give to it is "live in Hell and wait for Utopia".

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I hope the persons contributing their views for sharing in the Forum are well educated in their respective fields.It is certainly expected that such pesons should be sharing their views to present the views of GuRu as envisaged in SGGS.
When it is felt that people start evaluating what GuRu is saying is like this or not.What authority we have to evaluate the thinking of our GuRu.We should rather respect what GuRu is saying.
And for this reason it is important for every one on this Forum to be well conversant with the views of GuRu. as envisaged in SGGS.
Well ,I do not find whatever is presented is well supported from SGGS .It is all wordly interaction of views which do not meet the GuRmati requirements.
No one should feel offended only make self retrospection in this regard.
Prakash.S.Bagga

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ੴ / Ik▫oaŉkār

I hope the persons contributing their views for sharing in the Forum are well educated in their respective fields.It is certainly expected that such pesons should be sharing their views to present the views of GuRu as envisaged in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
When it is felt that people start evaluating what GuRu is saying is like this or not.What authority we have to evaluate the thinking of our GuRu.We should rather respect what GuRu is saying.
And for this reason it is important for every one on this Forum to be well conversant with the views of GuRu. as envisaged in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
Well ,I do not find whatever is presented is well supported from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji .It is all wordly interaction of views which do not meet the GuRmati requirements.
No one should feel offended only make self retrospection in this regard.
Prakash.S.Bagga

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Prakash.S.Bagga ji in a sister thread destruction of Sikhi is flagged. You said the following,

Unless we are absolute clear about Basic concepts as given in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji .No change can take place.There seems to be no Locus Standi in real understanding of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji .

Sikh philosophy is trapped by Hindu Philosophy in India whereas Abroad ithe philosophy is trapped by the concept of Abraham GOD.
The Basic concept of the word GURoo is complelty missing.
So where is the scope of improvement .Nevetheless we should always be hopeful as Guroo will set everthing in own ways.
Prakash.S.Bagga

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Dear veer tell me how these in any practical fashion help solve specifically each of the issues like from other thread as,

1.Leaders-With makker sarna badal who needs enimes. Almost all are big leaders have been found to be corrupt and misusing Gurdwara funds.

2.Granthis- Not prepared with enough education to teach. Most granthes arent teaching the young Sikhs punjabi Gurbani and katha keertan.

3. So called Satguru Ram Singh Chair setup at Guru Nanak University. Do i need to say more.

4. Castes- This deisase even though our faith is against this this problem has not gone away.

5.Sects- Like Radhaswami, Namdhari and Jootha are converting Sikhs to there faith. If we count all the Sikhs who go to these deras then how many less Sikhs are there in punjab who accully believe in Guru Sahib and dont belong to these groups. Thousands of deras distorting Sikhi and elevating themselves equal to Guru Maharaj Ji.

6. Sikhs dont teach about there faith to people for the benefit as Guru Nanak Sahib taught people of other faith to believe in God. Gurdwaras are only built because of the Sikh population

7. Not enough teaching instutions- Little has been done to open Sikh Schools in every town to pass on the teaching of the Gurus.

8. No unity among ourselves- A cartoon of Muhammad is drawn muslims from every part of the world are upset meanwhile Beadbi of Guru Granth Sahib is done over and over again. The Genocide of 1984 and we still dont have justice and the culprits are free on the street.

9. Sant Baba- The corrupt babas have used the public <nobr>for money</nobr> and there desires. Saying they have baptized millions of people even though most of the punjab are baptied. If the corrupt self proclamied Sants are right all of punjab would be

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Veer you used six months to a year repeating ad nauseum "Gur GURU, Guroo". Now you have picked another phrase to throw around,

Well ,I do not find whatever is presented is well supported from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji .

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You don't provide details just paint with a brush. It is very tiring on eyes. I know you can can contribute, so please contribute with specifics and not generalizations. I saw you quoting Geeta the other day, so you definitely have studied much.

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Moderator

WriterSPNerContributor

I mentioned this to my wife, What should the response be to those that try and inflict their views on us, why cannot there be discussion that leads to greater understanding, Why is it that a Hindu and a Sikh cannot just share what is in common and embrace the common points,.

My dear wife whilst taking a urine sample from Alfie and without looking up said the following

"would you post your list of meat recipes on a vegetarian forum and expect to be lauded?"

errr no

"What about writing an article on Range Rovers on a cyclist forum?"

errr no

"Maybe an article about the benefits of Whaling on a Greenpeace forum"

ok ok ok ok

"and if you were a member of a Greenpeace forum, and you saw a post about the benefits of Whaling, would you not be quick to defend the stance of the forum?"

Yes

"So what exactly are you bleating about?"

to be fair, Alfie had just managed to get quite a bit of urine on my wife's head, and I was supposed to be holding him, not reading the PC screen, so I guess I deserved the last line

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AMBARSARIA Ji,
I think you are going to chalk out an action plan for tackling the various issues.
Let your action plan come in the forum I may contribute a little to justify what I have said.
These issues are not that easy as easily presented.You also know this quite well.
Nevertheless we should not leave the hope. I assure you I would be doing my best for these issues if asked for.
Prakash.S.Bagga

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