"Why am I doing this and what do I want out of it?". Just for fun, taking THIS to mean here... to better understand myself, see what it feels like to have someone see through me (narcissistic? was going to hedge around that), and play.

What I wrote was that no one see thru me here but me (Zoe me). I was playing around with the concept.

Words are dead things until we give them meaning and it's a bit like looking in the mirror, being willing to do so, and avoiding the narcissistic and delusional trips along the way, avoid turning it into a funhouse. writing is like meditating for me, theraputic. I like ME's posts. so for now I am here.

The diagnostic criteria for Borderline fits me well, for the most part. I really don't mind being alone, though, nor am I suicidal. Most of the time, I'm happy with who I am, but I wish I could be more consistent.

At least three of the following must be present, one of which must be (2):

1. marked tendency to act unexpectedly and without consideration of the consequences; 2. marked tendency to quarrelsome behaviour and to conflicts with others, especially when impulsive acts are thwarted or criticized; 3. liability to outbursts of anger or violence, with inability to control the resulting behavioural explosions; 4. difficulty in maintaining any course of action that offers no immediate reward; 5. unstable and capricious mood.

Pan you're just another attention seeking twerp who is unable to control his Internet dribbling. Why are here all the time? Stop dreaming up ever more exotic excuses (now you're borderline huh) why you haven't put your face in the wind. Pathetic, Peter.

The real truth, to find others like me. I don’t connect with most people, and I think the only reason I have close friends at all is due to the large amount of effort I put into finding people I relate to. I’m always looking. It’s become a habit. I will try almost anything once and am drawn to anything challenging or extreme. I’ve worked my way through a lot of friendships. Looking back, it was worth it. Compared to the alternative.

I am pretty good at reading people. The hard part has been learning not to, learning what was meant to be seen and what wasn’t. In an effort to not be misunderstood, or maybe to feel a connection, I would become them. It always felt wrong, disgusting somehow, to wear someone else’s skin like that, and was always a relief to get away afterward. It took a while but I can now be around others and hold my own, for the most part.

Being able to see through people is an advantage, but I think you risk becoming delusional to the point where you think you can control everyone, or that you must, that it’s your responsibility. If you have a sense of a real self, it’s lonely – it was the reference to this in one of ME’s posts that drew my attention. That resonates.

The fear of being discovered doesn’t. I just don’t get that. I feel that whatever I do, I can always undo. That’s a bit delusional, though, I guess.

I just realized today for the first time that the reason I find communicating online like this so terrifying is that it requires giving up that control. Here, I’m going in blind. I’m not used to that. Playing with metaphors, playing around, makes it easier, and is a way for me to feel things out. I always knew it was the fear that drew me, the need to get the better of it, but had no idea where it came from, what it was about. I can’t believe how slow I am sometimes.

"I am pretty good at reading people. The hard part has been learning not to, learning what was meant to be seen and what wasn’t."

"What was meant to be seen and what wasn't." I never want to know when someone is lying but there is always a click inside me which tells me something's off. It fucks with my head and makes me want to not trust and disengage. Because I dont want to always to keep pretending and believe what they say. I mean if they believe what they say, or they think they have to lie, who am I to call them on it and become "sensitive" and "paranoid" I dont want to be sensitive OR paranoid

Being able to see through people is an advantage, but I think you risk becoming delusional to the point where you think you can control everyone, or that you must, that it’s your responsibility. If you have a sense of a real self, it’s lonely – it was the reference to this in one of ME’s posts that drew my attention.

THis is how I feel when I am feeling a sense of self. Is lonely. I try to even go into flexible self mode, because I can, in order to separate and to enjoy. I have to play pretend, and this is also lonely, just lonely with other people around.

If you never want to know when someone is lying, does that mean you *want* to be a victim? You aren't supposed to want to trust someone who's lying to you. Just how are you controlling anyone if you're letting them deceive to you?

You do not know what I'm saying. I am just trapped in my childhood drama here.

I connect. I connect fine. This intimacy fantasy I chase is wrapped up in some childhood wishes.

I associate intimacy with crying jag and being held. It feels wrong for adults in romances.

I lie to myself if i see their lying face with words like "it is ok i am not going anywhere."You can see their eyes LOOKING at the door. Sometimes they stay sometimes they dont. In the moment of something like this crazy shit, almost everyone lies.

Well, I'm definitely a schizoid based on this-which is actually pretty accurate. I don't understand a lot of the things on this site because I tend to be remarkably apathetic (to the point where the sociopaths on this site actually seem overly emotional to me, lol). I find a lot of comments on here to be petty, over-analytical, and superfluous. I'm not very observant (of others or myself), so all the psychological games on here seem horribly pointless and I can't figure out why anyone would even care enough to manipulate someone. I don't have enough energy for that...but I do think the sociopath's is an interesting perspective (although somewhat obnoxious). I'm pretty unempathetic, but I feel absolutely no need to harm people (emotionally or otherwise) because of that...I don't think that logically follows from a lack of empathy. What I'm basically saying is: I don't understand even remotely the sociopath's motivations (or anyone else's for that matter, lol).

ZoeEyes can lie. The effect of people's actions on other people is an example of what I look at when judging people. Actions actions behavior behavior. ACTUAL behavior,;which can be hard to observe for most people. Look at people with great distance and upclose, when those pictures are very different ask yourself why.

And O above: ehm no point in manipulation?! If you dont get that you are bound to be used hard some day. lol. And it can be a game without harming other people to really.

Eyes can lie. The effect of people's actions on other people is an example of what I look at when judging people. Actions actions behavior behavior. ACTUAL behavior,;which can be hard to observe for most people. Look at people with great distance and upclose, when those pictures are very different ask yourself why.

Okay good point. I observe actions too, but I can’t always tell if something is off by pure observation. There is too much information there. I wouldn’t be able to tell you what it was only that it was, that something doesn’t add up. I’ve tested it out, ignored the intuition now and then, and it’s always been dead on. People get played because they see what they want to see. The times that I have been fooled, I’ve fooled myself because I wanted what I wanted what I wanted and no amount of logic could divert me.

But it’s still good to watch the eyes. Are they cold and fixed, deep mysterious pools, looking away, boring through you, or jumpy? Is what’s in them out of context? How does it make you feel? Is there something in them that flinches, ripples, or slithers away when you look back? And body language. Too close, too touchy, too far? Do they inhabit their body or live in their heads, carrying the rest around like some unfortunate luggage? And the voice. Playful, whiny, monotonous, or too smooth? Do the signals all add up or do some contradict?

When you have to interact with someone at work and don’t have a choice, all of that lets you know more about who you are dealing with and how best to approach things.

"But it’s still good to watch the eyes. Are they cold and fixed, deep mysterious pools, looking away, boring through you, or jumpy? Is what’s in them out of context? How does it make you feel? Is there something in them that flinches, ripples, or slithers away when you look back"

1. cold and fixed, angry, dull, no life, boring through you, not really seeing you – predatory narcissist or predatory sociopath though I’m betting narcissist 2. glassy, not cold, not looking right into you, no sparkle, looking inwards – probably narcissist3. deep pools, maybe a ripple now and then of something below the surface, leaping out at you, intense, warm or cool, like you could fall into, looking right into your soul, something watching you – could be sociopath or sociopathic type (eyes of people I’ve dated, known, and a friend who once convinced someone he was the devil (they deserved it)) 4. empty, abyss, swirling fog, pulling you in, like you’re standing on the edge of a cliff and about to fall - schizophrenic (the ones I’ve met)5. jumpy, flinches, something rippling or slithering – could be lying, hiding something or just nervous 6. warm, calm, not leaping out at you or hiding, you feel relaxed, at ease – probably ok, someone to get to know further 7. waves, glowing, excited, eager, begging, very alive, inviting – emotional types, could be okay or annoying

But I agree with you Disney, ultimately it's the actions that give people away.

Zoe 9:48Great info!I heard a joke about how a shrink can diagnose his patientsIf the patient arrives early, he is an approval seeker. If he arrives on time, he is obsessive. If he arrives late, he is defiant.

there is something to that joke. in general i'm late for work, always dead on time for meetings, and way early if i'm going some place unknown or new or some event i'm looking forward to whether it's work or not.

for me arriving early is a control thing and a necessary buffer for the unknown, arriving on time is obsessive (time is precious), and arriving late is when i'm comfortable, confident, when things are under control.

Haven you are right. I had to go midline a LOT in this test. And if we are both borderline personality, and i say mine is mixed with narcissism and you say your is notsomuch, how is it possible you get the higher narc score and i get the higher mach and psycho?

There is a small glint of light, fueled by love( as is, always,the case) It is like the first crocus in spring. There is, always, joy when you are a child, as if the crocus bloomed, just for you or the chocolate covered graham was waiting for YOUR mouth, so you could melt the chocolate off, just right.

If you are too sweet, the wolves devour you. If you are too sour, you make a prison, which you carry like a snail: it's home affixed to it's back. Maybe, that is the life riddle. How to maintain the small child with just enough prickles to ward off predators.

Some game was played on you, where you were turned around so many times, a la pin the tail on the donkey, that you didn't know which end was up. You had a huge switch-er -roo. You were being spun to disorient you, but you are still spinning, waiting for someone to tell you where the fucking donkey's ass is, so you can pin the tail on it.

It blows, but the fact is, you still can't figure out which way is straight and which is backwards. You need to go back to the game, let yourself be spun around. then scream, "NO MORE". I will find the fucking donkey tail with my own mind and my own hand" Then, stick the assholes with the pin, if they complain. You have to think that way. Thinking is believing.

I read that post a couple days ago, but it makes more sense now - this is the difference between descriptive psychiatry and dynamic psychiatry. Based on behavior, I could be labeled as one of several different diagnosis depending on the bias of the clinician, and that's neither encouraging nor helpful.

I liked this, in the first paragraph, "Ya, you should avoid labels altogether... To be honest, you don't need to ask people to confirm whether or not you are different or how you are different and what category you fall under. I mean, if you can't form relationships with people, or you can but you couldn't care less whether they dissolved or not, then you probably got a personality disorder of some sort; not a big deal."

They say that the only treatment for psychopathy / sociopathy is the school of hard knocks, but I can't find anywhere a description of what 'improvement' looks like. If over time you could divorce yourself from an obsession with power, you still wouldn't be neurotypical - so would you present like someone with schizoid then? I guess if the definitions don't matter you would just deal with things that seemed like problems as they come, but it would be nice to have a roadmap.

You have to take your own death sentence and throw it out the window. Why were you, really, killing yourself, again? You better go back to that place where you had some sense. It is under that huge pile of leaves, way at the bottom. Have you ever raked a pile of leaves? At the very bottom, the leaves are wet and limp. Sink to the bottom and get the funkiest ones. All leaves matter, even the squished ones which have become akin to mush. Even a bruised leaf is a leaf. It's story may be the one the world needs to hear, or one person, at the very least.

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Of course, my default is still to intuitively analyze every outcome and situation and achieve the best result, but it's more interesting to let people remain a variable and go in their own direction, rather than nudging them in the direction I prefer. Interacting with people WITHOUT trying to control them is a new paradigm for me.