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behind the obvious

Reading these three lines, most people and myself, would be touched by the gentle heart and compassion of the monk-poet and find this very cute and kind and...

Yes, of course, it is about a night where Ryokan woke up very cold as his blanket was stolen by a thief.

And yet, it is an extraordinary poem about the consciousness during Zazen and the relatioship between sitting and living. Let me explain. The thief is the ego, willing to make use of Zazen, to milk practice, to take something from shikantaza into the life out there. Meanwhile , it misses the selfless brightness of the moon which stands for awakening, original and open shikantaza, which shine on phenomenas too. When zazen, zazen.When life, life. And of course, nothing but zazen for life is fully embraced. Do and create a bound or separation, a river to cross, some stuff and goods to smuggle, one shore to the next and... you end up with a blanket when you own the whole brightness of the universe...Attached to a single experience, we end up being the thief of a few rags . The moon, the window and and the fool waking up are always possible, always available every single moment of our life.

Re: behind the obvious

I've been thinking about the pointlessness of zazen a lot. I catch myself doing practice sometimes in the hope of attaining something better. Sometimes I whisper to myself before sitting that this is pointless just as a reminder. The ego is powerful, and I find it challenging to just let go to let the zazen take care of itself.

Re: behind the obvious

Sawaki Roshi said:

"When somebody asks me what zazen is good for, I say that zazen isn’t good for anything at all. And then some say that in that case they’d rather stop doing zazen. But what’s running around satisfying your desires good for? What is gambling good for? And dancing? What is it good for to get worked up over winning or losing in baseball? It’s all good for absolutely nothing! That’s why nothing is as sensible as sitting silently in zazen. In the world, “good for nothing” just means that you can’t make money out of it."

Making a Kesa can be Zazen, wouldn't you say? What would be more sensible than making a Kesa? Maybe sitting Zazen, I don't know.
One could perhaps put it all down instead, but if that seems impossible, making a Kesa may seem more feasible?

Re: behind the obvious

This is gonna sound like a kid's question, but why make anything?

Chet

Hello Chet,

although I'm not a qualified teacher, please allow me to offer you my two cents worth.

Making something is the perfect conscious expression of things as they are. Form is not just emptiness, but emptiness is the perfectly expressed form as well. Once we are beginning to see through the "looseness" of a reality previously considered firm and definite, it seems odd to see any worth in the "relative". But to stop there would mean to miss the mark. We affirm the deep truth of Sunyata, the marrow of the Prajna Paramita through actively expressing it, through e.g. making something.

Re: behind the obvious

Making a kesa is a full expression of what is said to be : bonno soku bodai, illusions become awkening. Rags become kesa. Chet becomes Buddha. Action. Gautama even without a word toys with a flower on Vulture peak. Out of non doing, doing bossoms. If nothing comes to nothing to nothing, this is a sunyata hangover which sticks and traps, It is one of the pitfalls that Nagarjuna points out. So making a kesa which is perfectly rags and yet Buddha's body at the same time is the practice of the guys that follow as much as they possibly can Sawaki 's Zen. Dogen's Zen ( read the shobogenzo and the capters about the kesa, consider the many kesa Dogen sewn). Mongen, deep bows. Chet, deep bows.

Re: behind the obvious

Originally Posted by Taigu

Making a kesa is a full expression of what is said to be : bonno soku bodai, illusions become awkening. Rags become kesa. Chet becomes Buddha. Action. Gautama even without a word toys with a flower on Vulture peak. Out of non doing, doing bossoms. If nothing comes to nothing to nothing, this is a sunyata hangover which sticks and traps, It is one of the pitfalls that Nagarjuna points out. So making a kesa which is perfectly rags and yet Buddha's body at the same time is the practice of the guys that follow as much as they possibly can Sawaki 's Zen. Dogen's Zen ( read the shobogenzo and the capters about the kesa, consider the many kesa Dogen sewn). Mongen, deep bows. Chet, deep bows.

gassho

Taigu

My posts were not criticisms. And I have nothing against the kesa, Dogen, or you.

Is a Buddha's body made or found? A glimpse of a question from Western philosophy.

Re: behind the obvious

Thank you Hans and Taigu for the explanations. I think they complemented each other very well. Thanks for laying out the subtle teachings of the Middle way.
If I were enlightened, I would probably go get some fabric right away and start sewing!
In my ignorance, my lazy ego believes it can wait until another day, some time in the future, when it suits me better! :roll: ops: :wink:

Re: behind the obvious

Originally Posted by Taigu

Chet ,

You ask why make anything, I give you my answer. I am not trying to pick up a fight but doing my very best to put down to words very subtle teachings.

gassho

Taigu

Re-reading your post, I think I have a better understanding of your intent. I can't find any flaw in it. And yet, the monk from the story did not immediately replace his shirt with even a kesa. Am I misunderstanding the story? Maybe the thief took the kesa too. It must be difficult to face the world naked (at least from the waist up).

I was confused about that story - I thought it was the Buddha who took the monk's shirt.

Re: behind the obvious

I was confused about that story - I thought it was the Buddha who took the monk's shirt.

This is the version of the story that I have seen in a few places, it's from Zen Flesh, Zen Bones:

One evening a thief visited Ry?kan's hut at the base of the mountain only to discover there was nothing to steal. Ry?kan returned and caught him. "You have come a long way to visit me," he told the prowler, "and you should not return empty-handed. Please take my clothes as a gift." The thief was bewildered. He took the clothes and slunk away. Ry?kan sat naked, watching the moon. "Poor fellow," he mused, "I wish I could have given him this beautiful moon."

The story is probably just an interpretation of Ryokan Taigu's Haiku:

The thief
Left it behind-
The moon at the window.

In other words, I think we may interpret it in any way we want. Clothes, shirt, Kesa, blanket, rags. I haven't heard the interpretation with the Buddha as the thief! :shock: :lol:

The message is, if I have understood Taigu Sensei correctly, is that we should let Shikantaza be Skikantaza and not become the thief in Ryokan's poem by stealing some rags, not noticing the real treasure, the beautiful moon. In other words, not try to use Zazen, take something from it into our lives, expect some use or reward from it. Instead of defiling it, we should let it be the pure manifestation of reality in this present moment, enlightenment, true nature, universal self or whatever we want to call it. Please correct me if I've misunderstood completely (again)!

Re: behind the obvious

Thank you Chet, and yes Pontus I was refering to this very famous story. I should have mentioned it. I assumed everybody kind of knew it. Mea culpa.
As to your understanding of what I am pointing at, it seems you are spot on.

Re: behind the obvious

I was confused about that story - I thought it was the Buddha who took the monk's shirt.

This is the version of the story that I have seen in a few places, it's from Zen Flesh, Zen Bones:

One evening a thief visited Ry?kan's hut at the base of the mountain only to discover there was nothing to steal. Ry?kan returned and caught him. "You have come a long way to visit me," he told the prowler, "and you should not return empty-handed. Please take my clothes as a gift." The thief was bewildered. He took the clothes and slunk away. Ry?kan sat naked, watching the moon. "Poor fellow," he mused, "I wish I could have given him this beautiful moon."

The story is probably just an interpretation of Ryokan Taigu's Haiku:

The thief
Left it behind-
The moon at the window.

In other words, I think we may interpret it in any way we want. Clothes, shirt, Kesa, blanket, rags. I haven't heard the interpretation with the Buddha as the thief! :shock: :lol:

The message is, if I have understood Taigu Sensei correctly, is that we should let Shikantaza be Skikantaza and not become the thief in Ryokan's poem by stealing some rags, not noticing the real treasure, the beautiful moon. In other words, not try to use Zazen, take something from it into our lives, expect some use or reward from it. Instead of defiling it, we should let it be the pure manifestation of reality in this present moment, enlightenment, true nature, universal self or whatever we want to call it. Please correct me if I've misunderstood completely (again)!

Gassho,
Pontus

First I thought the story was about the thief not seeing the real treasure. Then I thought it was about the imperturbable nature of the monk in the story (as an example worth aspiring to). Then I thought it was an illustration that the enlightenment of the Buddha was like being stripped naked under a full moon in the cold night; if you're not ready, you'll think something important was taken from you. Instead of being grateful, you'll curse when you could just as well be thankful.

Right now, I'm convinced that the third interpretation is correct - but I also know this: If I was the monk and the thief took my shirt, I wouldn't be able to see the situation clearly. Like a fish on a hook, I would likely try to chase down the thief thinking that something very important had been taken from me. This means that even if I can see the way, surely I haven't finished walking it yet.

I'd never thought of it as Taigu interpreted it because it never occurred to the monk to stop the thief, nor that the theft occurred because of carelessness.

Re: behind the obvious

Originally Posted by disastermouse

I'd never thought of it as Taigu interpreted it because it never occurred to the monk to stop the thief, nor that the theft occurred because of carelessness.

Thanks Chet for sharing your interpretation! I'm glad you have found one that speaks so strongly to you!
Maybe the thief could be the teacher helping his student to let go by stripping him naked..? (no, i'm not talking about disrobed Zen priests here! :twisted: )

Or maybe Ryokan was just a very loving, kind and compassionate man, never judging, wanting to give to this poor visitor without expecting anything in return, knowing they are not two, vowing to save all sentient beings before himself.

Re: behind the obvious

Thank you for this Taigu...I had never saw the parallel to ego & shikantaza before. I had always interpreted Ryokan's story from being caught up in temporal/material things that we miss our opportunity to see the limitless right in front of eyes.

Also great discussion from the sangha, I seem to always learn as much from the discussion and commentary as I do from the inital post!

Re: behind the obvious

Thanks Chet, I never thought about it from so many perspectives.

I always thought of it from the absolute perspective, as in you don't really own anything.

Also about being caught by the hook, I always get caught ... every day. Just yesterday, my wife was having a conversation with someone on the phone while I was doing Shikantaza, and I took my wife's "side" and I saw red... And I felt anger. That's my habitual response when I don't like something... anger!!!!

Going back to this story, I bet this old monk felt that way too; maybe, he's only painted so perfectly in a story to make a point about practice.

Re: behind the obvious

Thank you all. I saw the moon rise last evening. A waning moon, five days after fullness approaching its last quarter, rising up in the southeast; lying on it's back as if holding the cares of the world; a Bodhisattva! This morning's temperature is a bone-chilling -18ºC. As I let the dog out at 4:30, I was compelled to step out onto the deck clad only in pajamas and in bare feet, to gaze up at the same moon high in the sky, flooding the yard with its silver light. Just now, three hours later it struck me as I read Nigel's post, body and mind fall away while experiencing the magic of the universe, to endure the extreme conditions of nature. Fifteen years ago, seated bare foot in Shoukoji doing zazen, warmed only by a very small oil heater, I recall a similar realization. :lol:

Re: behind the obvious

Shokai I wrote the post after reading this from Keizan's Denkoroku.

Mind's activity smoothly rolling on is the form the mind takes;
How many times has the self appeared with a different face! (p106)

I don't know what happened but something fell away and I have been in joyous calm state ever since... even through 1 hour of zazen!
Perhaps I let the blanket slip!
Where else could Keizan jam with Ryokan jam with Taigu jam with all of us!!!?
Deep bows to everyone at Treeleaf!!