I was a huge Ash supporter and I was not happy he was let go. Fast forward 3 yers and I love that our coach is Choate. I think he is doing it the right way and I think this years team will be very good. It takes time to build a program the right way and you will have problems along the way. In this day and age players will always move on. I like our direction and I think he improved the coaching staff and the team this year. Every year should be better!

I couldn't disagree much more on Ash. Coach Ash was a poor head football coach in my opinion, despite his ability to run a clean program & his uncanny ability to amass wins in meaningless games early in the season.

Choate, on the other hand, is a very good head football coach & leader of young men. We are all blessed to have him at the helm. The biggest obstacle to Choate's program will be overcoming the loss of TG. I'm supporting him 100% on this, but overcoming this will be neither easy nor guaranteed.

I'm throwing a flag on this one. I will admit something happened to his team and the defense imploded, and I'm still scratching my head at how that happened. That said, you don't win the Big Sky three times in a row, make the playoffs and win playoff games, and get to the point where you're the number one team in the country, if you're a POOR head football coach.

Exactly. You don't win 3 Big Sky Championships in a row and lead MSU in coaching wins in that short of time without being a good football coach. I like both coaches (both had very different styles but each of them have different attributes that have won them games). I like where we are trending up so maybe some more Big Sky Championships and deep playoff runs are on the horizon.

Someone here posted a pretty good article not long after Choate was hired. It was an interview with Chris Petersen and he shed some light on this that I'd never before heard anyone mention.

He stated every single day as a head coach is a struggle, a real fist fight with everything. X's and O's, administration, leading a team, etc. He said the coaches who used to be good but don't have same level of success are just tired of the fight. It's not the game passing them by, not being able to relate to the young generation anymore, or any other excuse we've all heard or invoked ourselves.

I definitely believe that is what happened with Ash. He had been coaching a long time fighting the fight!

I agree, in 2 specific ways: he couldn't/wouldn't hold Jamie Marshall accountable when the defense began to fall apart 2) he allowed tim cramsey to foster discord between the offense and defense, given the former's success. But he was good here, our program grew and improved while he was here. We started to struggle in recruiting, especially on defense, towards the end. This new staff's prowess on social media, along with athletic department staff, has been a thing of beauty to behold. The team mentality is great; Ash's teams had it for a time, but the cramsey/prukop teams didn't. I appreciate what he did here, i'm excited for what choate is doing now.

I agree, in 2 specific ways: he couldn't/wouldn't hold Jamie Marshall accountable when the defense began to fall apart 2) he allowed tim cramsey to foster discord between the offense and defense, given the former's success. But he was good here, our program grew and improved while he was here. We started to struggle in recruiting, especially on defense, towards the end. This new staff's prowess on social media, along with athletic department staff, has been a thing of beauty to behold. The team mentality is great; Ash's teams had it for a time, but the cramsey/prukop teams didn't. I appreciate what he did here, i'm excited for what choate is doing now.
[/quote]

I will always be grateful to Coach Ash. He took over a program in turmoil - it was on acedemic sanctions and public perception of Bobcat football was not good because of a long series of legal issues involving players and coaches. He turned the ship around and produced a program we can be proud of.

I was a huge Ash supporter and I was not happy he was let go. Fast forward 3 yers and I love that our coach is Choate. I think he is doing it the right way and I think this years team will be very good. It takes time to build a program the right way and you will have problems along the way. In this day and age players will always move on. I like our direction and I think he improved the coaching staff and the team this year. Every year should be better!

I couldn't disagree much more on Ash. Coach Ash was a poor head football coach in my opinion, despite his ability to run a clean program & his uncanny ability to amass wins in meaningless games early in the season.

Choate, on the other hand, is a very good head football coach & leader of young men. We are all blessed to have him at the helm. The biggest obstacle to Choate's program will be overcoming the loss of TG. I'm supporting him 100% on this, but overcoming this will be neither easy nor guaranteed.

I'm throwing a flag on this one. I will admit something happened to his team and the defense imploded, and I'm still scratching my head at how that happened. That said, you don't win the Big Sky three times in a row, make the playoffs and win playoff games, and get to the point where you're the number one team in the country, if you're a POOR head football coach.

Exactly. You don't win 3 Big Sky Championships in a row and lead MSU in coaching wins in that short of time without being a good football coach. I like both coaches (both had very different styles but each of them have different attributes that have won them games). I like where we are trending up so maybe some more Big Sky Championships and deep playoff runs are on the horizon.

Someone here posted a pretty good article not long after Choate was hired. It was an interview with Chris Petersen and he shed some light on this that I'd never before heard anyone mention.

He stated every single day as a head coach is a struggle, a real fist fight with everything. X's and O's, administration, leading a team, etc. He said the coaches who used to be good but don't have same level of success are just tired of the fight. It's not the game passing them by, not being able to relate to the young generation anymore, or any other excuse we've all heard or invoked ourselves.

I was a huge Ash supporter and I was not happy he was let go. Fast forward 3 yers and I love that our coach is Choate. I think he is doing it the right way and I think this years team will be very good. It takes time to build a program the right way and you will have problems along the way. In this day and age players will always move on. I like our direction and I think he improved the coaching staff and the team this year. Every year should be better!

I couldn't disagree much more on Ash. Coach Ash was a poor head football coach in my opinion, despite his ability to run a clean program & his uncanny ability to amass wins in meaningless games early in the season.

Choate, on the other hand, is a very good head football coach & leader of young men. We are all blessed to have him at the helm. The biggest obstacle to Choate's program will be overcoming the loss of TG. I'm supporting him 100% on this, but overcoming this will be neither easy nor guaranteed.

Holy ****** you're a broken record... We get it, you like juggling Ty's balls....

Bahaha...touche. It's funny, nobody in this thread compared choate to ash, except to say (gtapp) that they were a fan of both coaches. That's kind of where i come down too, I like it when the bobcats win, so whomever can make that happen I like. Funny how FTG and a few others still feel the need to run coach ash into the ground, though. An argument that's been heard 1k times on this board, everybody knows their position, and everyone else's position, but they won't let it go. Like Rob beat up their dog, or something, which i'm sure he didn't because he's a good human being. Every coach has strengths, and all have flaws (except maybe Saban). Im excited about our current direction, and I appreciate the 70 wins ash had here.

I think a few Ash apologists are quick to point out any flaws the current staff may have because they are still sad about the departure of the choir boy. For this reason, it becomes important to remind them where we were headed.

Ash was a good guy but being nice doesn’t guarantee you a job in a performance based position. I think he was given more than enough time to prove himself and he proved that his ceiling was beating cupcakes and getting beaten like a cupcake when facing real talent.

I was a huge Ash supporter and I was not happy he was let go. Fast forward 3 yers and I love that our coach is Choate. I think he is doing it the right way and I think this years team will be very good. It takes time to build a program the right way and you will have problems along the way. In this day and age players will always move on. I like our direction and I think he improved the coaching staff and the team this year. Every year should be better!

I couldn't disagree much more on Ash. Coach Ash was a poor head football coach in my opinion, despite his ability to run a clean program & his uncanny ability to amass wins in meaningless games early in the season.

Choate, on the other hand, is a very good head football coach & leader of young men. We are all blessed to have him at the helm. The biggest obstacle to Choate's program will be overcoming the loss of TG. I'm supporting him 100% on this, but overcoming this will be neither easy nor guaranteed.

Holy ****** you're a broken record... We get it, you like juggling Ty's balls....

Bahaha...touche. It's funny, nobody in this thread compared choate to ash, except to say (gtapp) that they were a fan of both coaches. That's kind of where i come down too, I like it when the bobcats win, so whomever can make that happen I like. Funny how FTG and a few others still feel the need to run coach ash into the ground, though. An argument that's been heard 1k times on this board, everybody knows their position, and everyone else's position, but they won't let it go. Like Rob beat up their dog, or something, which i'm sure he didn't because he's a good human being. Every coach has strengths, and all have flaws (except maybe Saban). Im excited about our current direction, and I appreciate the 70 wins ash had here.

I think a few Ash apologists are quick to point out any flaws the current staff may have because they are still sad about the departure of the choir boy. For this reason, it becomes important to remind them where we were headed.

Ash was a good guy but being nice doesn’t guarantee you a job in a performance based position. I think he was given more than enough time to prove himself and he proved that his ceiling was beating cupcakes and getting beaten like a cupcake when facing real talent.

Here’s hoping Choate’s ceiling is much higher.

And did all that talent just conjure itself from thin air? Nobody is arguing the change shouldn't have been made, there's a couple of you that need to remind us that you really hated that damn Ash, any chance you get. And remember, I was defending choate in this thread about 2 of his prized wr recruits leaving 1 year in. Remember how much you guys would bitch about "retention" when a kid would leave before? Your lack of self-awareness is practically breathtaking. Whenever someone dares criticize anything this coach does, you insist on comparing him to the last one, yet none of the "ash apologists," as you call them, do the same. And the "beating up on cupcakes" thing is nonsense. Since we're doing this, again, because god only knows why, how many wins over playoff teams has choate had so far? 1? Incarnate word this year, right, a 6-win qualifier IIRC. His teams have played well in cat griz, no doubt about it, but those have also been mediocre griz teams. I'm not saying any of this to discount or discredit choate's talent, I'm a believer after that late season run, but merely to point out the stunning hypocrisy in your argument.

I think a few Ash apologists are quick to point out any flaws the current staff may have because they are still sad about the departure of the choir boy. For this reason, it becomes important to remind them where we were headed.

Ash was a good guy but being nice doesn’t guarantee you a job in a performance based position. I think he was given more than enough time to prove himself and he proved that his ceiling was beating cupcakes and getting beaten like a cupcake when facing real talent.

Here’s hoping Choate’s ceiling is much higher.

We all hope Choate's ceiling is higher, but that isn't a slam dunk - yet. Unlike you, I'm for any coach that can win us championships. As far as what Choate could have done with DM, Akpla, Bleskin, Minter, etc, I don''t believe any of those players were on the roster when Ash started. Apparently you think they just fell into his lap. I think Ash started on short notice in 2007. DM started at QB in 2010 - Ash's third year. Choate had every opportunity to find a DM and have him start in 2018 - his third year as head coach. We're going into Choate's 4th year and we don't even know what or who we'll have for a QB in 2019. Beating cupcakes or not, Ash won us a BSC championship in his third year. Were we BSC champs in Choate's third year? Ash was no longer winning us championships, so it was time for him to go. Choate needs to start winning championships soon. Next I suppose you'll go right for the "the cupboard was bare" blather.

I was a huge Ash supporter and I was not happy he was let go. Fast forward 3 yers and I love that our coach is Choate. I think he is doing it the right way and I think this years team will be very good. It takes time to build a program the right way and you will have problems along the way. In this day and age players will always move on. I like our direction and I think he improved the coaching staff and the team this year. Every year should be better!

I couldn't disagree much more on Ash. Coach Ash was a poor head football coach in my opinion, despite his ability to run a clean program & his uncanny ability to amass wins in meaningless games early in the season.

Choate, on the other hand, is a very good head football coach & leader of young men. We are all blessed to have him at the helm. The biggest obstacle to Choate's program will be overcoming the loss of TG. I'm supporting him 100% on this, but overcoming this will be neither easy nor guaranteed.

Holy ****** you're a broken record... We get it, you like juggling Ty's balls....

Bahaha...touche. It's funny, nobody in this thread compared choate to ash, except to say (gtapp) that they were a fan of both coaches. That's kind of where i come down too, I like it when the bobcats win, so whomever can make that happen I like. Funny how FTG and a few others still feel the need to run coach ash into the ground, though. An argument that's been heard 1k times on this board, everybody knows their position, and everyone else's position, but they won't let it go. Like Rob beat up their dog, or something, which i'm sure he didn't because he's a good human being. Every coach has strengths, and all have flaws (except maybe Saban). Im excited about our current direction, and I appreciate the 70 wins ash had here.

I think a few Ash apologists are quick to point out any flaws the current staff may have because they are still sad about the departure of the choir boy. For this reason, it becomes important to remind them where we were headed.

Ash was a good guy but being nice doesn’t guarantee you a job in a performance based position. I think he was given more than enough time to prove himself and he proved that his ceiling was beating cupcakes and getting beaten like a cupcake when facing real talent.

Here’s hoping Choate’s ceiling is much higher.

I think we're all hoping for that. I really hope Choate can match or exceed the success Ash had in terms of three Big Sky Championships in a row. That's damn hard to do. Also would love it if Choate can take us to the number one ranked FCS team in the country, even if it's short lived. That is quite impressive as well.

I think a few Ash apologists are quick to point out any flaws the current staff may have because they are still sad about the departure of the choir boy. For this reason, it becomes important to remind them where we were headed.

Ash was a good guy but being nice doesn’t guarantee you a job in a performance based position. I think he was given more than enough time to prove himself and he proved that his ceiling was beating cupcakes and getting beaten like a cupcake when facing real talent.

Here’s hoping Choate’s ceiling is much higher.

We all hope Choate's ceiling is higher, but that isn't a slam dunk - yet. Unlike you, I'm for any coach that can win us championships. As far as what Choate could have done with DM, Akpla, Bleskin, Minter, etc, I don''t believe any of those players were on the roster when Ash started. Apparently you think they just fell into his lap. I think Ash started on short notice in 2007. DM started at QB in 2010 - Ash's third year. Choate had every opportunity to find a DM and have him start in 2018 - his third year as head coach. We're going into Choate's 4th year and we don't even know what or who we'll have for a QB in 2019. Beating cupcakes or not, Ash won us a BSC championship in his third year. Were we BSC champs in Choate's third year? Ash was no longer winning us championships, so it was time for him to go. Choate needs to start winning championships soon. Next I suppose you'll go right for the "the cupboard was bare" blather.

I think a few Ash apologists are quick to point out any flaws the current staff may have because they are still sad about the departure of the choir boy. For this reason, it becomes important to remind them where we were headed.

Ash was a good guy but being nice doesn’t guarantee you a job in a performance based position. I think he was given more than enough time to prove himself and he proved that his ceiling was beating cupcakes and getting beaten like a cupcake when facing real talent.

Here’s hoping Choate’s ceiling is much higher.

We all hope Choate's ceiling is higher, but that isn't a slam dunk - yet. Unlike you, I'm for any coach that can win us championships. As far as what Choate could have done with DM, Akpla, Bleskin, Minter, etc, I don''t believe any of those players were on the roster when Ash started. Apparently you think they just fell into his lap. I think Ash started on short notice in 2007. DM started at QB in 2010 - Ash's third year. Choate had every opportunity to find a DM and have him start in 2018 - his third year as head coach. We're going into Choate's 4th year and we don't even know what or who we'll have for a QB in 2019. Beating cupcakes or not, Ash won us a BSC championship in his third year. Were we BSC champs in Choate's third year? Ash was no longer winning us championships, so it was time for him to go. Choate needs to start winning championships soon. Next I suppose you'll go right for the "the cupboard was bare" blather.

Good post, except 2010 was Ash's 4th year.

2007
2008
2009
2010 = 4th year

Choate made the playoffs his 3rd year, Ash did not, so let's give credit where it's due.

I think a few Ash apologists are quick to point out any flaws the current staff may have because they are still sad about the departure of the choir boy. For this reason, it becomes important to remind them where we were headed.

Ash was a good guy but being nice doesn’t guarantee you a job in a performance based position. I think he was given more than enough time to prove himself and he proved that his ceiling was beating cupcakes and getting beaten like a cupcake when facing real talent.

Here’s hoping Choate’s ceiling is much higher.

We all hope Choate's ceiling is higher, but that isn't a slam dunk - yet. Unlike you, I'm for any coach that can win us championships. As far as what Choate could have done with DM, Akpla, Bleskin, Minter, etc, I don''t believe any of those players were on the roster when Ash started. Apparently you think they just fell into his lap. I think Ash started on short notice in 2007. DM started at QB in 2010 - Ash's third year. Choate had every opportunity to find a DM and have him start in 2018 - his third year as head coach. We're going into Choate's 4th year and we don't even know what or who we'll have for a QB in 2019. Beating cupcakes or not, Ash won us a BSC championship in his third year. Were we BSC champs in Choate's third year? Ash was no longer winning us championships, so it was time for him to go. Choate needs to start winning championships soon. Next I suppose you'll go right for the "the cupboard was bare" blather.

Good post, except 2010 was Ash's 4th year.

2007
2008
2009
2010 = 4th year

Choate made the playoffs his 3rd year, Ash did not, so let's give credit where it's due.

Anyway - isn't this the Duru thread??

Oh sure, now in addition to trying to remember things I'm expected to pay attention to what I say and count things??? I'm a lost case. Woe is me.

I think a few Ash apologists are quick to point out any flaws the current staff may have because they are still sad about the departure of the choir boy. For this reason, it becomes important to remind them where we were headed.

Ash was a good guy but being nice doesn’t guarantee you a job in a performance based position. I think he was given more than enough time to prove himself and he proved that his ceiling was beating cupcakes and getting beaten like a cupcake when facing real talent.

Here’s hoping Choate’s ceiling is much higher.

We all hope Choate's ceiling is higher, but that isn't a slam dunk - yet. Unlike you, I'm for any coach that can win us championships. As far as what Choate could have done with DM, Akpla, Bleskin, Minter, etc, I don''t believe any of those players were on the roster when Ash started. Apparently you think they just fell into his lap. I think Ash started on short notice in 2007. DM started at QB in 2010 - Ash's third year. Choate had every opportunity to find a DM and have him start in 2018 - his third year as head coach. We're going into Choate's 4th year and we don't even know what or who we'll have for a QB in 2019. Beating cupcakes or not, Ash won us a BSC championship in his third year. Were we BSC champs in Choate's third year? Ash was no longer winning us championships, so it was time for him to go. Choate needs to start winning championships soon. Next I suppose you'll go right for the "the cupboard was bare" blather.

Good post, except 2010 was Ash's 4th year.

2007
2008
2009
2010 = 4th year

Choate made the playoffs his 3rd year, Ash did not, so let's give credit where it's due.

Anyway - isn't this the Duru thread??

He probably would’ve made the playoffs in 2008 , 2009 if the playoffs were at 24 teams instead of 16. Choate is one well timed timeout away from not making the playoffs!

I think a few Ash apologists are quick to point out any flaws the current staff may have because they are still sad about the departure of the choir boy. For this reason, it becomes important to remind them where we were headed.

Ash was a good guy but being nice doesn’t guarantee you a job in a performance based position. I think he was given more than enough time to prove himself and he proved that his ceiling was beating cupcakes and getting beaten like a cupcake when facing real talent.

Here’s hoping Choate’s ceiling is much higher.

We all hope Choate's ceiling is higher, but that isn't a slam dunk - yet. Unlike you, I'm for any coach that can win us championships. As far as what Choate could have done with DM, Akpla, Bleskin, Minter, etc, I don''t believe any of those players were on the roster when Ash started. Apparently you think they just fell into his lap. I think Ash started on short notice in 2007. DM started at QB in 2010 - Ash's third year. Choate had every opportunity to find a DM and have him start in 2018 - his third year as head coach. We're going into Choate's 4th year and we don't even know what or who we'll have for a QB in 2019. Beating cupcakes or not, Ash won us a BSC championship in his third year. Were we BSC champs in Choate's third year? Ash was no longer winning us championships, so it was time for him to go. Choate needs to start winning championships soon. Next I suppose you'll go right for the "the cupboard was bare" blather.

Good post, except 2010 was Ash's 4th year.

2007
2008
2009
2010 = 4th year

Choate made the playoffs his 3rd year, Ash did not, so let's give credit where it's due.

Anyway - isn't this the Duru thread??

He probably would’ve made the playoffs in 2008 , 2009 if the playoffs were at 24 teams instead of 16. Choate is one well timed timeout away from not making the playoffs!

Can someone please shut down this thread.....
In 2007 to 2009 we didn't finish the season in the top 25 on any poll.

I think a few Ash apologists are quick to point out any flaws the current staff may have because they are still sad about the departure of the choir boy. For this reason, it becomes important to remind them where we were headed.

Ash was a good guy but being nice doesn’t guarantee you a job in a performance based position. I think he was given more than enough time to prove himself and he proved that his ceiling was beating cupcakes and getting beaten like a cupcake when facing real talent.

Here’s hoping Choate’s ceiling is much higher.

We all hope Choate's ceiling is higher, but that isn't a slam dunk - yet. Unlike you, I'm for any coach that can win us championships. As far as what Choate could have done with DM, Akpla, Bleskin, Minter, etc, I don''t believe any of those players were on the roster when Ash started. Apparently you think they just fell into his lap. I think Ash started on short notice in 2007. DM started at QB in 2010 - Ash's third year. Choate had every opportunity to find a DM and have him start in 2018 - his third year as head coach. We're going into Choate's 4th year and we don't even know what or who we'll have for a QB in 2019. Beating cupcakes or not, Ash won us a BSC championship in his third year. Were we BSC champs in Choate's third year? Ash was no longer winning us championships, so it was time for him to go. Choate needs to start winning championships soon. Next I suppose you'll go right for the "the cupboard was bare" blather.

Good post, except 2010 was Ash's 4th year.

2007
2008
2009
2010 = 4th year

Choate made the playoffs his 3rd year, Ash did not, so let's give credit where it's due.

Anyway - isn't this the Duru thread??

He probably would’ve made the playoffs in 2008 , 2009 if the playoffs were at 24 teams instead of 16. Choate is one well timed timeout away from not making the playoffs!

That's a good point, the 2009 team was 7-4 and probably would've been in a 24 team field.

I was a huge Ash supporter and I was not happy he was let go. Fast forward 3 yers and I love that our coach is Choate. I think he is doing it the right way and I think this years team will be very good. It takes time to build a program the right way and you will have problems along the way. In this day and age players will always move on. I like our direction and I think he improved the coaching staff and the team this year. Every year should be better!

I couldn't disagree much more on Ash. Coach Ash was a poor head football coach in my opinion, despite his ability to run a clean program & his uncanny ability to amass wins in meaningless games early in the season.

Choate, on the other hand, is a very good head football coach & leader of young men. We are all blessed to have him at the helm. The biggest obstacle to Choate's program will be overcoming the loss of TG. I'm supporting him 100% on this, but overcoming this will be neither easy nor guaranteed.

Holy ****** you're a broken record... We get it, you like juggling Ty's balls....

Bahaha...touche. It's funny, nobody in this thread compared choate to ash, except to say (gtapp) that they were a fan of both coaches. That's kind of where i come down too, I like it when the bobcats win, so whomever can make that happen I like. Funny how FTG and a few others still feel the need to run coach ash into the ground, though. An argument that's been heard 1k times on this board, everybody knows their position, and everyone else's position, but they won't let it go. Like Rob beat up their dog, or something, which i'm sure he didn't because he's a good human being. Every coach has strengths, and all have flaws (except maybe Saban). Im excited about our current direction, and I appreciate the 70 wins ash had here.

I think a few Ash apologists are quick to point out any flaws the current staff may have because they are still sad about the departure of the choir boy. For this reason, it becomes important to remind them where we were headed.

Ash was a good guy but being nice doesn’t guarantee you a job in a performance based position. I think he was given more than enough time to prove himself and he proved that his ceiling was beating cupcakes and getting beaten like a cupcake when facing real talent.

Here’s hoping Choate’s ceiling is much higher.

And did all that talent just conjure itself from thin air? Nobody is arguing the change shouldn't have been made, there's a couple of you that need to remind us that you really hated that damn Ash, any chance you get. And remember, I was defending choate in this thread about 2 of his prized wr recruits leaving 1 year in. Remember how much you guys would bitch about "retention" when a kid would leave before? Your lack of self-awareness is practically breathtaking. Whenever someone dares criticize anything this coach does, you insist on comparing him to the last one, yet none of the "ash apologists," as you call them, do the same. And the "beating up on cupcakes" thing is nonsense. Since we're doing this, again, because god only knows why, how many wins over playoff teams has choate had so far? 1? Incarnate word this year, right, a 6-win qualifier IIRC. His teams have played well in cat griz, no doubt about it, but those have also been mediocre griz teams. I'm not saying any of this to discount or discredit choate's talent, I'm a believer after that late season run, but merely to point out the stunning hypocrisy in your argument.

I’ll give Ash credit for recruiting talent but he started off with a winner.

Kramer’s last season was an 8-5 finish. When you realize what Ash walked into I’m not sure it’s impressive that it took 4 seasons to turn 8 wins into the playoffs. Kramer had us gaining ground and we were trending up when he got the boot. Compare that to what Ash left Choate.

I also don’t recall anyone, especially myself, stating that we hated Ash. Ash was an incredibly nice man but this isn’t an exercise in likability. Players who knew that their potential was much higher than what they achieved would come forward just to be shouted down by the Ash crowd. How about DM? Does anyone remember how that ended? One of the greatest QBs in the history of MSU ended his career at odds with Ash. Even the players that are leaving early now have better things to say about Choate then many players who graduated under Ash.

Players want to win and they know the program better than anyone on here ever could. If you want to know the state of our program talk to the players. When guys like JP and Newell graduated they expressed regret that they couldn’t play another season or two to be part of what they knew Choate was building. That’s all I need to know. Those boys played for both coaches. You don’t have to be that great at reading the tea leaves to pickup on whether they think the coaching change was the right move.

One player leaving doesn’t amount to a thing. All programs experience some turnover and we’ve been dealt a bum hand when it comes to the QB position and yet look at what we’ve still accomplished. When Choate finds himself a QB whose even half of what McGhee or Lulay was we are going to be one hell of a football team.

You guys act like you are doing Choate a favor by acknowledging what is right in front of your face. We are improving at a steady pace and although Choate isn’t beating the powerhouse teams yet I can point to instances where we atleast competed which is something the last staff rarely did.

Last thing, this is a fan site. Comparing our current staff with the last one is about the most natural damn thing a group of fans could do and yet the mere mention of Ash enrages many of you. Why? For someone that is so “self aware” why is it that the mention of Ash sends you into such a free fall. If the comparison wasn’t so obviously pro Choate maybe you could deal with examining the details. You get defensive because you were wrong and instead of just admitting it and jumping on board you have to get pissy when someone points out the obvious. In all fairness to you Goldstone, you are one of the better Ash men but some on here look for every reason to criticize Choate because they can’t deal with the fact that the choir boy’s exit was good for the program.

I think a few Ash apologists are quick to point out any flaws the current staff may have because they are still sad about the departure of the choir boy. For this reason, it becomes important to remind them where we were headed.

Ash was a good guy but being nice doesn’t guarantee you a job in a performance based position. I think he was given more than enough time to prove himself and he proved that his ceiling was beating cupcakes and getting beaten like a cupcake when facing real talent.

Here’s hoping Choate’s ceiling is much higher.

We all hope Choate's ceiling is higher, but that isn't a slam dunk - yet. Unlike you, I'm for any coach that can win us championships. As far as what Choate could have done with DM, Akpla, Bleskin, Minter, etc, I don''t believe any of those players were on the roster when Ash started. Apparently you think they just fell into his lap. I think Ash started on short notice in 2007. DM started at QB in 2010 - Ash's third year. Choate had every opportunity to find a DM and have him start in 2018 - his third year as head coach. We're going into Choate's 4th year and we don't even know what or who we'll have for a QB in 2019. Beating cupcakes or not, Ash won us a BSC championship in his third year. Were we BSC champs in Choate's third year? Ash was no longer winning us championships, so it was time for him to go. Choate needs to start winning championships soon. Next I suppose you'll go right for the "the cupboard was bare" blather.

Good post, except 2010 was Ash's 4th year.

2007
2008
2009
2010 = 4th year

Choate made the playoffs his 3rd year, Ash did not, so let's give credit where it's due.

Anyway - isn't this the Duru thread??

Let’s look a little deeper....

Ash took over a team that went 8-5 the year prior.

Ash first year 6-5 (-2). Second year 7-5 (-1). Third year 7-4 (-1). Fourth year 9-3 (+1).

It took Ash 4 seasons to improve upon what Kramer had left him. It also took the arrival and emergence of DM to put Ash over the top. In some ways, you could argue that DM deserves as much credit as anyone for the success that Ash enjoyed at MSU.

Now Choate...

Choate took over a team that went 5-6 the year prior.

Choate first year 4-7 (-1). Second year 5-6 (even). Third year 8-5 (+3).

In just 3 seasons Choate has managed a drastic change in our success when it comes to wins. He’s done this without the emergence of a program changing QB and he’s managed to go undefeated against our rival to boot.

Of Ash’s 70 career wins 37 of them occurred during the DM era With DM as starting QB we went an incredible 37-13 winning 74% of our games. Without DM Ash’s winning percentage was 57%.

Those 3 straight conference titles had one thing in common, they all happened in the DM era. Of the 6 playoff games that Ash coached here DM was the QB for 5 of them. Ash won 2 playoff games both with DM under center.

We all know that DM was a great QB but the amount of impact he had is easy to forget. Ash owes his success to DM as much as anybody because his numbers look average when you take the DM years out of the mix. Pretty much everything that any Ash supporter brags about happened when #9 was the starting QB.

It took Ash 4 seasons to improve upon what Kramer had left him. It also took the arrival and emergence of DM to put Ash over the top. In some ways, you could argue that DM deserves as much credit as anyone for the success that Ash enjoyed at MSU.

Now Choate...

Choate took over a team that went 5-6 the year prior.

Choate first year 4-7 (-1). Second year 5-6 (even). Third year 8-5 (+3).

In just 3 seasons Choate has managed a drastic change in our success when it comes to wins. He’s done this without the emergence of a program changing QB and he’s managed to go undefeated against our rival to boot.

Exactly.

It must be understood in addition that Choate has done all this while simultaneously transforming the entire identity of our program while shifting the balance of power inside the state on who the REAL football program is now.

I will always be grateful to Coach Ash. He took over a program in turmoil - it was on acedemic sanctions and public perception of Bobcat football was not good because of a long series of legal issues involving players and coaches. He turned the ship around and produced a program we can be proud of.

No he did not. Ash took over a winning program and was able to keep winning predominantly meaningless games by landing some key out-of-state recruits while simultaneously getting owned by our in-state rival in humiliating fashion on an annual basis.

I would argue that this is one of the worst positions we could be in as a program since the coach is winning enough to justify his job while consistently failing to succeed in his most critical duty.

This was the hell of the Ash era & I for one thank the Good Lord every day that it is over.

You can spin it a thousand ways why Ash's teams consistently went downhill toward the end of every season, but the reality is this was the hallmark of his teams.

I would also point out that if Ash was such a great head coach then why is he no longer employed in this role for any other program?

There was very little market for Ash when he was let go by MSU. And for good reason. These are just the cold, hard facts of the situation.