Excerpted
and updated from the The Barbarian Keep, Issue No. 1: a magazine published
by the Robert E. Howard United Press Association for mailing #144.
Copyright 1997 by Edward Waterman - presented with permission.

On
February 27th, 1997, I had the honor of interviewing Mr. Jody Samson,
who is one of the world's most renowned sword makers. The interview
was informally conducted outdoors, at the back of the building and
behind the formal showroom, where his shop is located. Jody Samson
is one of the world's top six master knife and sword makers, and is
most widely known for making the swords featured in the movie Conan
the Barbarian. However, his reputation as a master sword maker was
considerable years before he landed the job for Conan. Born and raised
in California, Mr. Samson learned his trade from the late John Nelson
Cooper, who was a giant and pioneer in the knife-making field. Beginning
in 1969, Mr. Samson apprenticed with Cooper during his spare time
while he was studying art at a local college. In 1974, Mr. Samson
opened his own shop and began to make swords and knives for a living.
First and foremost an artist, Mr. Samson thrives on the ability to
create one of a kind custom swords, which he calls "sculptures
in steel."

Mr.
Samson sells his knives and swords primarily to the movie and television
industry. However, he still makes swords and knives for individuals
as well. Each of his swords are hand made. His keen eye and steady
hand is a testament to his masterful skill. Every line is straight,
and every surface is immaculately polished to a mirror finish. He
uses no measuring tools to achieve this, but eyes each blade and shapes
each sword with a master's touch. Mr. Samson takes great pride in
his work.

Mr.
Samson's workshop is a surreal fantasy-land. From the doorway, it
seems like a small 10x10 garage, but as soon as you walk inside it
is like being transported to another world. Piled on the center table
are several candle-holders carved in the likeness of dragons, bobcats,
skulls, and other gothic and dark artifacts. All three walls are covered
with belts, swords, shields and walking sticks that Mr. Samson carved
and sculpted himself. Many are carved in very odd forms resembling
snakes or skulls. There is a small statue of a dragon embryo in the
center of the table that he takes considerable pride in, and rightly
so. It is a magnificent piece of artwork. At both sides of the shop
are tables supporting grinding, sanding, and polishing equipment.
Littered throughout the shop are various hand tools, blades, pins,
and other pieces of swords. A small desk sits in the far right corner,
cluttered and piled with papers. A movie poster from Conan the Barbarian
hangs prominently on the adjoining wall. Any visitor would be awed
by the eclectic mix of fantastic oddities decorating Mr. Samson's
shop. It is certainly an artist that works here.

Mr.
Samson looks a bit like a Viking of old. Looking like a man in his
mid-forties, he sports a grizzled beard and long dark hair speckled
with gray which is drawn back into a pony tail. He seems strong, perhaps
a result of his craft, but more unsettling is his demeanor. There
is a sense of wild ferocity about him. Perhaps his fierce eyes, or
the quiet manner in which he speaks and muses, belying a living volcano
beneath. It is obvious that he is a man of great intensity. An artist.
And yet, he is uncommonly modest. He dislikes talking about himself
or "bragging", as he puts it, about his work.

The
questions and answers that follow have been re-organized and in some
cases paraphrased for accuracy and simplicity:

How
did you get into the business?
I went to buy a knife from a knifemaker who lived in Burbank, John
Nelson Cooper. He made a lot of knives for Hollywood and was a very
famous knife maker. We got to be friends and he showed me how to make
knives. The first thing I did was start making swords! And I just
started doing it. I was an art major in college, so I worked with
everything, in any media I could. Sculpting and drawing. I've been
painting since the beginning of my life.

I
liked fantasy when I was a kid. I read all the Conan books. You know,
Robert E. Howard was a good writer. There's very few people who can
paint a picture as well as he did. Maybe Tanneth Lee. She's done some
nice work, but Howard was good! I was also into Renaissance Fairs.
It just seemed like sword making would be fun to do. So it all just
came together and I simply started making swords.

It
can be difficult to get into the business. Well first, there's not
that many sword makers. A couple hundred sword makers, and maybe half
a dozen good ones. There's a few thousand knife makers. Most of the
guys, I'd say about 80% of the people have another job and do it as
a hobby, or they're retired. The full-time guys that have been doing
it for a long time are kind of rare. And it takes a long time to build
up a reputation. You have to go to a lot of shows, which I used to
do, to have people judge your work.

Have
you heard of Dr. Jim Hrisoulas; he's one of the world's foremost experts
on ancient swordmaking and steelmaking?
In his first book [The Complete Bladesmith], there was a guard
on the cover, I did that. He said they forgot to give me credit for
it. But I've known him for years and years. I've been doing it, I
think, a little longer. He used to come by my shop, and we would buy
steel together.

What
do you think of those inexpensive swords made in India or Taiwan?
Well, they are all right to carry around or have at the Renaissance
fair. But there's a lot more to swordmaking than making something
that looks like a sword. There's balance and flexibility, and other
things that you'd want to control. The use of the sword also determines
what you do to the blade to have it function in the way it should.
Like a rapier would be more flexible. And depending on the guy's style
of fighting, you can make the sword so that it would bend toward the
tip or in the center. More flexible, less flexible. For thrusting
you can make it so it's very strong and it will pierce something even
as tough as a steel drum. And you can totally control the weight and
balance everything. Whereas the swords that you buy at the mall
are just spit out, and they don't have any real balance. Half the
time they don't have any real temper because they're designed as a
mass market item.

What
do you mean when you refer to balance?
The way it feels in your hand. How well the sword moves. Even though
I'm a contemporary sword maker, and I do mostly my own designs, I'm
making weapons and not just useless ornaments. I'm making a balanced,
usable weapon; and the same sword, if it went back in time, could
be picked up and used just like the swords they used at that time.

Do
you have a favorite kind of sword?
I don't have any. A sword is for fighting, so I would choose my sword
depending on how many people were attacking me, how much space I had
to maneuver and swing a weapon, how they were dressed (in armor or
not), and if they were armed.

Do
you make other weapons or anything other than swords?
Sure. Swords, knives, axes, spears, any of that. Anybody can have
anything they want. I'd love to make it. Once, I took a casting of
the Father's sword used in Conan the Barbarian and made a belt buckle
out of it for one guy. For that, I had to change the design considerably
to keep from infringing on copyrights. I added smaller horns, took
out the medallion, added longer and sharper teeth, etc., but it looked
very nice when I was done. I just like making stuff. If someone comes
up with a drawing, I can make it! If you've got a one of a kind sword
made for you, which is made by me, you will probably have a collector's
item 50 years from now. I'm in books and well known. Not to brag or
anything, but it is a fact. A sword that is custom made for you can
be a legacy, a gift to your descendants. Sort of like a family heirloom
type thing as opposed to something you got at the local mall.

Do
you make weapons out of anything other than steel?
Well, I do a lot of stuff for the movies in aluminum. You can't tell
what kind of metal they're made of on the screen. Quite a few weapons
and swords that you see in the movies are made out of aluminum. I
did some swords for Beastmaster III, the one that went directly
to video. I made two sword blades out of steel and then 3-4 out of
aluminum for the fighting scenes in Beastmaster. Aluminum is a little
safer, it's a little lighter, it's less expensive. Aluminum is pretty
easy to dent, but you can fix it quickly. You know, you can clean
it up easily. And when it's polished you really can't tell the difference.
In Beastmaster, I could tell when the hero was using the aluminum
sword or the steel one, but most people can't tell.

What
do they use to make the sparks fly in the movies, when two swords
hit each other?
Special effects. Metal doesn't spark against metal. It's just like
the ringing sounds you hear in the movies when the swords clash. I've
rented sword-blanks out, because when you hit them they'll make a
nice ring. And then they just put that into the movie. A sword-blank
is what you call the blade before you work on it. And aluminum rings
also. It rings very well. It's plenty strong too. The swords I did
for Universal Studios, for the Conan stage show, were aluminum. Aluminum
swords don't last very long. Exactly how long they last depends on
the grade of aluminum that the swords are made out of. Universal Studios
ended up using low grade cast stuff, and the swords were lasting about
oh a show. The swords I made were aircraft aluminum and they
were lasting 7 days on the average. I made those for just the first
2-3 months, and then Universal switched over to the cast aluminum
swords because they were a lot less expensive. As long as it looked
like a sword they were happy because it was just a show and the sword
didn't need to be a real weapon.

For
the movie Conan the Barbarian, I made four swords of each.
Four of the Father's swords and four of the Atlantean swords. Tim
Huchthausen is the guy who did the handle carving on the Atlantean
sword, and I ground the blade. The Father's sword was all mine, the
one with the skull. Well, Ron Cobb actually designed it. He and some
production people gave me blueprints to work off of, and I first carved
it in wax. Centuries ago, Cobb used to write for the LA Free Press,
he was a cartoonist, and now he's a designer. He does some good work.
I've got a wax of the Father's sword and we've got an Atlantean sword
up front in the showroom.

The
swords we made for Conan the Barbarian weren't practical swords,
they were just good looking swords. They were heavy. The Father's
sword, with the skull on it, was about 6.5 pounds and the Atlantean
sword was 8.5 pounds. A real sword would be about 2.5 pounds. Swords
are very exaggerated in the fantasy movies. Think about a really good
athlete, like a boxer. He's got 16 ounce gloves and he has to stop
every three minutes and rest. So if you've got a 6-7 pound sword,
you can't fight with it. Speed kills. Speed is critical in a swordfight.
And swinging around a heavy sword would wear down your speed pretty
quickly. You don't cut down stone pillars with real swords either,
or cut through chains and all that. It doesn't work. Only in the movies.

Why
does the guard on the Atlantean sword extend up along the blade? Isn't
that unusual?
Well generally speaking, all we did was link from the handle in front
of the guard. They designed the handle to go in front of the guard
so you could reach forward, but in real life, if it was a real sword
meant for fighting, it would just have a long handle.

Who
holds the copyrights to the Conan swords?
I hold statutory rights for the three-dimensional sculpting, but I
think Universal holds the copyrights to the swords. Ron Cobb probably
holds some design copyrights. I'm really not sure though. It is possible
that in about five years the copyrights will not be renewed, and I'll
be able to make the Conan swords for people. But unfortunately, there's
no way I can do that at this time.

Do
the hieroglyphs carved on the swords mean anything?
The Father's sword's hieroglyphs read, "Suffer no guilt ye who
wields this in the name of Crom". The Atlantean sword's markings
are meaningless. The script they used to write it is not real, they
made it up.

Did
you make Valeria's sword too?
No. Valeria's sword was cast in aluminum. They brought it to me and
I reground it to clean it up, and I polished it to make it look like
steel.

In
the beginning of the movie Conan the Barbarian, there is a
scene where Conan's father is forging his sword. Is that how a real
sword would be forged?
Well, you can, but you wouldn't heat it up red hot and throw it in
the snow because it would shatter. And usually when you quench something,
that's what cooling it is called, the oil temperature is about 120
degrees, and you'd want to quench it slowly. And you wouldn't be engraving
the little words, letters, in the blade. And he cast it, you wouldn't
do that. Ancient sword makers just got something that looked like
metal and poured it into the mold. You can't believe anything you
see on the screen. What I do is just buy the steel, it's flat stock,
and I cut out the profile and then grind it. The spring steel we have
today is homogenous and it's almost exactly what they had in their
best steels during ancient times. It's similar in what we have in
leaf springs in cars, underneath the wheel. Leaf springs flex like
a bizillion times a day and they never break, which is ideal for a
sword. It's more important than holding an edge. Everybody says, "Oh
it's got to be sharp!", and I say no! You can defend yourself
with a dull sword very well thank you. If it breaks you're in trouble.

It
always seems like the top experts in any field all know each other.
Is that true for swordmaking as well?
Yes. In fact, I recently went to Warner Brothers just to work with
Terry English. He's they guy who did the armor for Mr. Freeze in the
new Batman movie, and I helped a little with that. He also
did the sword for Excalibur (Editor's note: Jim Hrisoulas forged
the blade for Excalibur, Terry English made the hilt).

Do
you like Star Trek?
I don't watch a lot of TV but when I do it's either a Star Trek thing,
or X-files, or Babylon 5. I've had some swords in Babylon 5, for the
King Arthur episode with Michael York. I did the sword blade, and
Tony Swatton did the handle. He was also the guy in the suit of armor
who kills Michael York in the episode.

Arnold
Schwarzenegger wasn't quite what I visualized as Conan. He just didn't
have the same essence that Robert E. Howard gave to Conan in the stories.
It's important for there to be a kind of tension in the person, in
the way they move. Maybe somebody like Jack Pallance. When he was
in Barabbas and driving the chariot, he had the madness and the energy.
Or Yul Brynner in The Ten Commandments. When he was walking around,
he was smooth and fluid, and he had an energy about him. Arnold to
me seemed a little funky. I would have chosen the guy who played his
father, William Smith. When he was younger he was the guy! Because
he had the cheekbones. He was in this movie Piranha, with Peter
Brown, where he played this mad hunter guy in the wilderness in the
Amazon. Totally crazy, he had this "look". And that's how
I pictured Conan. You know, really smart nobody's fool. Besides,
he had black hair.

Albion
Armorers is pleased to present this interview with Jody Samson,
discussing the production of the original Conan movie swords, and
the new editions that will be available through FilmSwords.
This interview was conducted by Jason Dingledine in Mr. Samson's shop
in Burbank, Ca.

AA:
How did you end up being the maker of these swords? What were the
challenges you faced?

JS:
I was anxious to get the work and agreed to take the project on
before I could take any time to really think about it. After the studio
people left, I sat there thinking "I've never done anything like this
before!" I have to admit that I panicked a little. I had done a lot
of sculpture before and made hundreds of knives and swords, but had
never combined the two, or even carved a single guard for casting.
The principles seemed to be the same as doing sculpture, so I figured
I'd give it a try and see what happened.

AA:
John Milius (Director of Conan the Barbarian) has graciously
offered to loan Albion his original swords from the film. How many
of each sword were made, and approximately how long did take to create
each sword?

JS:
There were three of each, and I worked on them over six months. That's
kind of amazing, usually six weeks is a long time to work on a movie.
There were also fiberglass versions made for fight scenes, and I understand
that a company in Spain, due to time constraints, was asked to make
additional copies in steel for some other scenes during filming.

AA:
Popular myth has it that these swords were very heavy -- some
sources say as much as 12 pounds, and that weight had to be added
to them so that Arnold Schwarzenegger could "feel" them. How much
did each of the original swords actually weigh? Would you consider
them usable swords?

JS:
Film swords are in a category to themselves - usually they have
to look "larger than life" in order to translate on the silver screen.
But these swords were actually much smaller than they might appear
on screen. The Father's sword weighed around 6.5 lbs and the Atlantean
weighed around 8 lbs, which is nowhere near 12 lbs. (laughs) and no
weight was added to them, for any reason. Besides, most of the swords
you actually see in the film were fiberglass castings -- like in the
fight scenes -- which weigh hardly anything at all. The real swords
were only used in "beauty shots" -- the close-ups, etc. As to weight
in general -- I make real swords, and most of my pieces are very light.
But these were heavier than usual because I was working from Ron's
production designs and I wanted to replicate those as closely as possible
-- and remember, Ron was designing for the big screen.

AA:
Were the blades on the original swords permanently mounted in
the hilts, or could they be disassembled?

JS:
They could be disassembled. The blade had a short tang, to which I
welded a threaded rod. The pommels were drilled and threaded to match
and then screwed on.

AA:
What kind of steel did you use?

JS:
Because these were only intended to be used as props, I used 440C
stainless. It takes a nice mirror polish, but it is not a steel I
would use on a functional sword. Our new versions will be of 5160,
which is what I use most often.

AA:
What were the original hilt components made from, and did you
finish the hilts completely, or did the studio?

JS:
Well, the castings were bronze, and yeah, I did the finishing
work. I antiqued them and then buffed the highlights, giving them
the "worn" look John Milius was looking for. The grip cores were made
from brown canvas micarta which I didn't polish, but left rough. The
only thing I didn't do was wrap the handles. The wrapping was done
by the prop department.

AA:
When you started work on the hilt components for the Father's
sword, how many versions where prototyped before the studio accepted
the final design?

JS:
Two versions.

AA:
I believe that in another interview it was mentioned that the original
carving was a low relief?

JS:
Yeah, it was real flat. Like a medallion. They wanted it higher.
So I carved the skull hollow, to lessen the weight.

AA:
How was that done? Isn't it difficult to cast something that is hollow?

JS:
Actually, the waxes were molded in two separate pieces (each side
of the guard) and put together. Then the guard was investment cast
as a whole in bronze.

AA:
Besides these two hallmark swords, did you create any of the other
weapons or armor for the film?

JS:
No.

AA:
Tim Huchtausen carved the hilt components for the Atlantian sword
-- was it difficult fitting the blade to a hilt that you did not design
yourself?

JS:
Not too difficult. I made a pattern for the sword blades first,
and Tim worked from the pattern. Tim carved them in clay (Mr. Samson
usually works in machinist wax when carving his hilts), and I ground
the blades while he (Tim Huchtausen) was doing the castings. Those
castings unfortunately weren't as good as this (Mr. Samson reaches
for an Albion Crom casting on a table behind him), especially on the
inside. This (Crom casting) requires just a little bit of clean-up,
the others took quite a bit of fitting. The arms on the Atlantean
alone took me several hours each just to clean them up. One reason
that our new versions of the swords will actually be better than the
original fillm swords is because the bronze foundry we now work with
is much better. There will actually be finer detail - detail that
was supposed to be on the originals but was lost in the casting process.
On film that doesn't make much difference, but in person you can really
see it.

AA:
Were any of the swords that were kept by the cast and crew members
after the film brought back to you for sharpening?

JS: (Mr. Samson smiles) Yeah, John had me sharpen his original
Father's sword - then he sent it back to me a few days later to unsharpen
it -- it was too dangerous to leave around his house like that. When
I sharpen something, it's very sharp.

AA:
In Conan the Destroyer, Conan carried an Atlantean that
looked different. The grip and the ricasso extensions looked longer,
and the lines of the blade did not seem as well defined. Why is that?

JS: I didn't work on Conan the Destroyer, so I am only
guessing here. It looks to me as though the swords used in that film
are fiberglass copies that do appear to have some modifications made
in them.

AA:
For the 5 Atlantean swords that you were allowed to recreate
a few years ago, for Arnold Schwarzeneggar to display at Planet Hollywood
-- were there any differences between those and the film originals?

JS:
Well, I ground the blades for Tony Swatton. Tony put on handles
that were longer than the ones that I made for the movie. John (Milius)
loaned him one of the swords to make the molds from for the hilt components.
However, since they were molds made from the poor castings on the
originals, they were not very detailed. The runes were also only shallow
surface etched from a new pattern, and the lines of the design were
much thicker. The lines and runes on the original swords were taken
directly from Ron Cobb's drawings and are finer, and etched as deep
as 1/32 of an inch. That's what we are doing on the new ones as well.

AA:
Are there any kind of nostalgic feelings or memories that you
think will come back, as far as you handling the originals and creating
the new limited editions?

JS:
No, a sword is a sword. (laughs) I'll be a little more nervous this
time than I was that time. Back in 1979 when I started making these
swords the first time, this was just another job in a string of such
jobs, and I didn't think it would have the impact that it has had
on my work.

AA:
With the recent approval for the production of Conan 3, do you look
forward to the opportunity to work with Mr. Milius again?

JS:
Always! I hope that I do get that opportunity - and that Ron and
Tim are involved as well. It has been great to work with them all
on recreating the swords from the first film, and it would be even
greater to work with them on creating swords for a new film.

AA:
In the 20 years since you created the movie originals, has there been
any major equipment changes that have caused you to change the way
will make the new Limited Editions?

JS:
No, I'm using the same equipment. I bought my BurrKing just before
I got the job, and it was one of the newer products on the market
at the time. Previously I had used stone grinders, but these are better.
The BurrKing is getting rather old, but I think it is fitting that
the last thing I should do with it is remake these swords with the
same machine. By the way, the first knife that I ever made was done
by hand with a file. Cooper (John Nelson Cooper) wanted to see how
dedicated I was to doing this. (Jody laughs) I guess I was.

WWW
http://jodysamson.com

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