The Republicans keep referring to the ACA as a bill. It's not. It's a law. The time to take it down was before it was passed and signed by the president. You're right. They opened the barn door and let out the horses. Now they want to shut down the whole farming operation until somebody brings all the horses back. And they want to blame the whole fiasco on somebody else so their rabid, ignorant, troglodyte base doesn't turn its appetite for destruction on them.

nice analogy, but i'd change Horses with Cats.... lol...

I am just tired of the GOP with this ****, I get it you don't like to LAW, so win some elections and convince the American Elelctorate you can do better... but between "we dislike immigrants, seld deport", their tagline "Maker and Takers" and wasting a year voting 42 times to Repeal the ACA LAW, I don't see them picking up alot of traction among Americans, espeocially those independents. The GOP has become about how bad stuff is, doomsday scenarios, and and longing for times well passed in our Nation.. I don't live like that, I live optimistic, that's why I don't vote GOP anymore.

that was well said. I still don't get to outrage, Americans have to buy insurance, and those who can't will get help to do so... why is that concept so dangerous really I think you can debate and change the details, like the device tax, but to kill an entire law that is going to really help millions of fellow Americans and is ready to go Midnight tonight, now, is foolish.

But you're right, if the ACA is doomday, Democrats will get killed 2014 and 2016... but Voters didn't see it that way in 2012, not by a close margin, and Romney ran on Repeal.. to me, Americans want a look under the hood... good for them.

The only way Republicans hold onto the House is because they gerrymandered the country into little fiefdoms they control. Without that, they would have already been tossed.

That graph does not show that spending is at the lowest. Actually, it shows that it's growing every year and is currently at its highest. It shows that spending under Obama is 1.4 times greater than the massive amounts racked up under the other presidents. There's a difference between slowest and lowest. This graph is showing spending at it's slowest growth rate, but it's still the highest it's ever been, not the lowest. If a car goes from 0-60 in 4 seconds, then eases off the acceleration as it goes up to 65. The car is still going the fastest it's ever been. It's not at it's lowest speed. It's never been faster as the speed continues to rise. Spending cuts are like brakes. We haven't applied the brakes at all. We've just eased up on the acceleration. We are currently hitting record speeds.

That graph does not show that spending is at the lowest. Actually, it shows that it's growing every year and is currently at its highest. It shows that spending under Obama is 1.4 times greater than the massive amounts racked up under the other presidents. There's a difference between slowest and lowest. This graph is showing spending at it's slowest growth rate, but it's still the highest it's ever been, not the lowest. If a car goes from 0-60 in 4 seconds, then eases off the acceleration as it goes up to 65. The car is still going the fastest it's ever been. It's not at it's lowest speed. It's never been faster as the speed continues to rise. Spending cuts are like brakes. We haven't applied the brakes at all. We've just eased up on the acceleration. We are currently hitting record speeds.

Okay?

It also shows that when it comes to growing spending, just like the ACA debate, the Republicans in practice have not provided an adequate alternative to the Democrats' policies, and in many cases, have made it worse.

It also shows that when it comes to growing spending, just like the ACA debate, the Republicans in practice have not provided an adequate alternative to the Democrats' policies, and in many cases, have made it worse.

Soooo...

What's your point, exactly?

To explain to Rigs that spending is still at it's highest because he thinks it's at the lowest it's been in years.

It also shows that when it comes to growing spending, just like the ACA debate, the Republicans in practice have not provided an adequate alternative to the Democrats' policies, and in many cases, have made it worse.

Soooo...

What's your point, exactly?

When they provide an alternative you fall all over yourself about it. Then when they don't follow through on it. you laugh at the lack of seriousness. This is why shutdown is necessary. At some point it has to be established that this is more than a game.

Infinite QE isn't working. Been calling the fed bluff they would ease it for many months now. I'm sorry for any friends that might lose their pay in the coming days or weeks but the system isn't functioning. Should be an interesting week ahead.

Well maybe Obama is looking forward to even more golf time. He'll still get paid along with the rest of his republican/democrat buddies.

Maybe if the Rs and Ds **** this up enough American's will wake up and give a third party a chance someday.

16 trillion and they are worried we are running out of money. Are you ****ting me? We ran out of money 16 trillion ago.

It also shows that when it comes to growing spending, just like the ACA debate, the Republicans in practice have not provided an adequate alternative to the Democrats' policies, and in many cases, have made it worse.

Actually I've brought up dozens of alternatives to make healthcare cheaper in the U.S., as have many other posters.

Obama and the Democrats picked the MOST expensive solution, and won't change ANYTHING (in the 2500 pages) until they're voted out.

This shutdown just proves we have a very poorly designed government. When a handful of radical anarchists can misuse procedure to stop the functions of government, you have some major design flaws, especially when you consider that the goal of anarchists is to bring down government. For them, this is success.

This shutdown just proves we have a very poorly designed government. When a handful of radical anarchists can misuse procedure to stop the functions of government, you have some major design flaws, especially when you consider that the goal of anarchists is to bring down government. For them, this is success.

You are much much smarter than this. Look at the real issue Ro. It's not obamacare. That's just a symptom. The cancer/debt is our problem.

You are much much smarter than this. Look at the real issue Ro. It's not obamacare. That's just a symptom. The cancer/debt is our problem.

I think you have to take in the whole context. Reagan cut tax rates for the rich by 50%. That trend has continued since then including huge cuts for corporations. That was part one for the neocon revolution. Clinton got an economic free ride due to the tech and housing explosion, but continued with the Reagan/Bush tax policy. Bush II then squandered the Clinton surplus with a trillion dollar, unfunded war. Meanwhile, Wall Street and the Banks were deregulated and turned capitalism into a casino. So, the rich have been on the gravy train for thirty years, and still are, raking in 95% of the profit from the recovery over the last year. The middle class has carried the load while their wages have stagnated. Then the crash of the casino and the burst of the housing bubble took down the middle class. Government kept spending, but was unable to raise taxes due to the radical tea party cabal in Congress. Instead, they engaged in creative accounting.

We have to do what California is doing to get out of their mess. Raise taxes, cut spending. The current crop of uber-wealthy in America are the richest people who have ever lived. Meanwhile, our country is collapsing. What does that tell you?

I think the Clinton Boom just proves the progressive case. Raise taxes on the rich. Change laws and regulations designed to bring jobs back. Get the people back to work and give them a much bigger piece of the pie. Spread the wealth around. The people produce more and they should get more of the benefit of that production, not work like serfs while the rich party. Get the economy up and running, benefiting the most, not the already wealthy few. In a few years, you're back in surplus.

On the other hand, blame it on the government (or Obama) and do everything you can to bring it down and throw out roadblock after roadblock, install more austerity and more tax breaks for the rich, and you will assuredly drive the U.S. into default.

I think the Clinton Boom just proves the progressive case. Raise taxes on the rich. Change laws and regulations designed to bring jobs back. Get the people back to work and give them a much bigger piece of the pie. Spread the wealth around. The people produce more and they should get more of the benefit of that production, not work like serfs while the rich party. Get the economy up and running, benefiting the most, not the already wealthy few. In a few years, you're back in surplus.

On the other hand, blame it on the government (or Obama) and do everything you can to bring it down and throw out roadblock after roadblock, install more austerity and more tax breaks for the rich, and you will assuredly drive the U.S. into default.

The debt issue didn't start until Reagan decided to say **** it and give his rich buddies a huge tax cut and then spend like a drunken salor.

For all the poo-pooing about democrats being the part of Tax & Spend, Reagan and the republicans ushered in the Borrow & Spend insanity that continues up to the present.

Wow. The polls really show how effective the GOP and Fox have been at selling their "Government is the enemy" ideology over the years. The majority of Republicans support the government shut down:

“Republicans support the federal government shutdown by a narrow 49-44 percent margin.” Democrats are against it 90-6 and so are three-in-four independents (74%-19%). The fact that the GOP is divided evenly on this shows the divide in the party and hammers home the point that it’s the party that’s united that wins these battles. On the debt ceiling, the poll finds that almost two-thirds (64-27%) are against blocking an increase in the debt limit as a way to stop the health-care law. BUT a majority of Republicans support doing just that by a 52%-39% margin, as opposed to 86% of Democrats and 62% of independents who do not. Democrats also lead on the congressional ballot by 9 points – 43%-34%, and while President Obama is at just 45% approval, congressional Republicans are at 17%.http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/2...-shutdown?lite

The thing propping up Reagan (and Carter)? The Baby Boomers coming into their prime. A big bump in demand and work force. Without it, Reaganomics likely would have resulted in a net loss of tax revenue, just like happened under Bush II.

It doesn't though. It was just another bubble in a series of unsustainable bubbles.

The market was inflated to a fat bubble, but otherwise, it was a boom time for business and a budget surplus. Clinton could negotiate and compromise with Newt......that's what's changed. We now have self serving, ideologues who think nothing of shutting government down to get their way. They care about their reelection, then party, then country.

The GOP leadership need to get control of their party again and restore some sanity into the opposition.

The market was inflated to a fat bubble, but otherwise, it was a boom time for business and a budget surplus. Clinton could negotiate and compromise with Newt......that's what's changed. We now have self serving, ideologues who think nothing of shutting government down to get their way. They care about their reelection, then party, then country.

The GOP leadership need to get control of their party again and restore some sanity into the opposition.

And don't forget demagogues.

But TJ only cares about "demagoguing" when it's not what he wants to hear. Much like every other conservative on the board.

Ok the floor is your democrats. Why on Earth are these two conditions worth shutting down the government?

Why is the government and its finances being held hostage by your GOP for what amounts to a policy difference?

Quote:

"Did you see the Giants game on Sunday? They lost 31 to 7. And you know what the Giants didn't say after that game: 'If you don't give us 25 more points by midnight on Monday, we will shutdown the ****in' NFL!' They didn't say that."

Ok FACTS are coming out now. The democrats had a chance to keep the government open with just two conditions. This was their final offer before the shut down. Just two conditions!

1)Families get the same 1 year relief as big business.
2) Congress has to follow the same rules on obamacare exchanges as their constituents!

I quoted this right from the US SENATE HEARING JUST NOW!

Ok the floor is your democrats. Why on Earth are these two conditions worth shutting down the government?

The purpose of this cluster**** isn't to delay, it's to kill the bill. In 11 weeks, we'll be going through the same nonsense again. The Tea Party are scared to death that ACA will actually work and give Obama a landmark bill.

Obama, not running again, has Obamacare as his legacy, he's not going to let it go.

Anyway, to answer is it worth shutting the government down?? Of course not, but the House is doing this, not Obama. The GOP opposed Medicare and SS, this is more ideology at work, not government.

The Tea Party are on a suicide mission and I wish them the best of luck and hope they succeed in their 'mission.'

I think when the people examine this, they'll see that it wasn't worth shutting down the government over a year delay and the repeal of a very unpopular tax. I'm not sure what Obama and Reid are thinking.

For my part, I'm comfortable with this. I feel like the Republicans offered a reasonable compromise to keep the government open and funded. If Obama and Reid don't want to give an inch, then this is on them.

Are you kidding? All Obama has been doing since he became president is compromising with with those lunatics in the house. Many of the Democratic base thinks he's so far right it's not even funny. It just goes to show you how far right the right has moved in the past 25 years.