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Exactly: address the issue not the poster. As Ken Knapp astutely observes and has stated previously problems always begin when members address what others are doing rather than what they are posting for content.

Just because some other member does not agree with your posting does not mean they are a “something”

Long time member BDB;

Using labels exhibits laxity of thought. It is an ad hominem argument, no better than name-calling, and lacks substance.

The quality of advice given is directly related to any poster's level of expertise. Posters tend to come and go. They get the information that they think that they need and move on. Genuine information runs the gamut. Some technical info given as gospel, has been gleaned from a very narrow frame of reference, some over a very long period of time. A snapshot of opinions today will vary from a similar query a few years ago or a few years forward and some info is just better than other info. I think it would benefit those making queries if those replying would also include their backround, especially if they are not a business per se. In this way, an opinion could be weighted according to the level of experience. As an example, some have proffered that asian pianos over 25 years of age are due for a rebuild, the tuning pins aren't tight and the bass strings are dead. My daughter as an example tried to sell her Kawai upright circa. 1970. When folks called her about it and found that it was made in 1970, they wouldn't even come out and try it because they said that on Piano World they heard that essentially the life of the piano was over.Years later she still has it, it's still in tune, the bass strings aren't dead and she hasn't been able to sell it...because of a pile of balderdash heard on this website. Never mind that Dad's hobby is pianos and it has a new set of hammers and it is in excellent regulation.

The presence of industry spies is a limiting factor - particularly when they can not agree with a realistic comment about their product.

As a result of bullying by one global company representative, there is one product which I won't make comment on now, despite the poor presentation and preparation of the samples provided. That then skews opinion in favour of that company.

The presence of industry spies is a limiting factor - particularly when they can not (handle a) comment about their product.

As a result of bullying by one global company representative, there is one product which I won't make comment on now, despite the poor presentation and preparation of the samples provided.

Agreed. I walked away from Kawai due to one representative here just as I was about to slap down $35K+ on one of their grands. Went with a famous German maker instead and am happier on all fronts.

If the representatives would stop pushing propaganda and vitriol, it would help.I like that the techs voice their experiences, opinions, and recommendations, but when the sniping begins, it is tedious. The threads bog down in lengthy off-topic blather.Stop attacking opinion as if it is fact. Just frame it properly as opinion.

MORE SOUNDS. This is a PIANO forum and almost no one posts sounds. "I've got an amazing sounding grand... here's a picture." Huh? "These Abel hammers sound incredible. (end of post)" Wha? I don't care if you mangle Chopsticks trying to show off the sound, and scr@w the critics, I'd like to hear the range of pianos and hammers and wires and everything. I suspect most would love this.

I wish there was more info about restoration and parts. More photos. It's hard to get a lot of detail about actions and hammers and so forth.

_________________________
Currently working on/memorizing..."It's You" from Robotech"He's A Pirate""Crazy Bone Rag""Claire DeLune (finally)"

#1975632 - 10/19/1210:38 AMRe: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better?
[Re: Steve Cohen]

pianoloverus
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 20371
Loc: New York City

The problem with posting recordings with the intent of using them to evaluate sound is that quality of the recordings and the quality of the speakers being used by the listener both have an effect on what one hears. I think the quality of the recording has the much bigger effect.

I also think the quality of the performer affects the sound somewhat, at least to the extent it can be hard to separate the sound from the skill of the performer.

If I'm not mistaken Larry Fine is in the process of getting recordings of different pianos posted but I don't know exactly where.

As far as the quality of advice goes, I think it is really impossible to improve on that on an internet forum. I wonder if there internet forums dealing with things other than pianos that have some way that they try to do this? The person reading the thread has to try as best as they can to decide on how knowledgeable and trustworthy the poster is and whether the poster has any agenda that would affect their advice. I have yet to read a single dealer post that says even the tiniest negative thing about a piano they sell. And most piano owners rave about their own pianos.

It would be fun if, just for a few days, all posters had to take a truth serum and say exactly what they were really thinking.

As far as the quality of advice goes, I think it is really impossible to improve on that on an internet forum. I wonder if there internet forums dealing with things other than pianos that have some way that they try to do this? The person reading the thread has to try as best as they can to decide on how knowledgeable and trustworthy the poster is and whether the poster has any agenda that would affect their advice. I have yet to read a single dealer post that says even the tiniest negative thing about a piano they sell. And most piano owners rave about their own pianos.

Pianoloverus, I agree you here… what you said makes a lot of sense to me.

On the other hand, Steve has a good point… I personally think anything that we have some control over, to any extent, can be improved in some way. I’m an advocate of Dr. Edward Deming’s philosophy of continuous improvement.

Also, keep in mind that the advice given here is free… and, at times, is worth about what it costs. Our system of checks and balances here are the many pros and experts that can counter any outright bad advice. (And some have countered my bad advice.)

With that said, I think any improvements in the advice given here on the Piano World forums would have to start with improvements from our members. As we experience our own self-improvement and grow, and mature, and get better at what we do, the improvements in the advice we give here will get better.

I, for one, know that I have only scratched the surface when it comes to knowledge about pianos and all things related. I think as I learn more I’ll be able to give better advice to others. And, even if my advice is not all that good, I can be a good motivator and encourager! Surely that counts for something.

Rick

_________________________
Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel

The problem with posting recordings with the intent of using them to evaluate sound is that quality of the recordings and the quality of the speakers being used by the listener both have an effect on what one hears. I think the quality of the recording has the much bigger effect.

The quality and settings of the sound card in the computer used to hear the recording also has a direct effect on what one hears.

Originally Posted By: pianoloverus

It would be fun if, just for a few days, all posters had to take a truth serum and say exactly what they were really thinking.

I believe that this forum exists to inform people about pianos, to promote the piano as a musical instrument and to encourage all piano players at every level of accomplishment.

Personally, my limited understanding and knowledge of pianos has been helped tremendously by my modest involvement in Pianoworld.

I find that the most credible, impartial responses about technical issues and problems with pianos come from the people who really know what they are talking about, the professional tuners and technicians.

Of course, we all have opinions about pianos, but we need to differentiate between what is fact and what is opinion. Again, the technical people on the forum seem to be better at this.

Negativity, especially in personal attacks and comments are a turn-off and moderators need to be vigilant.

It is a great forum and offers a wealth of information and lively discourse about pianos.

Whoops not that I am promoting myself at all Rickster; just finding solutions for one member’s dilemma.

Don't know that I've ever thought you were promoting youself here, Dan. I've always thought you were here to help in anyway you can.

It is folks like you, Robert 45, Del Fandrich, Supply (Jurgen Goering), Jerry Groot, Steven Cohen, Rich Galassini, and so many others that I have not named (but they know who they are), that make this forum such a wonderful place to learn about pianos (and lots of other things ).

By the way, what happened to PianoBroker (Tony Hamm?); We haven't heard from him in a long time.

Rick

_________________________
Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel

All in all, honesty is always a good policy no matter what, where, or when... I can't even begin to count the amount of dishonest people that I know, have met, continue to meet and seem to encounter pretty much everywhere I go! It seems that dishonesty, tends to be more prevalent than honesty in many instances. It's a "me me me" world and the other person doesn't count world. It is the way many people in today's society was raised. If, that way of thinking was reversed and people looked out for others, put others first and themselves second, did more for others, even volunteered somewhere, well, one person can make a difference. I know... That would make a big difference and would make everything, everywhere, including PW a better place.

One idea would be to some how allow newbies to know which posters have broad and deep experience in the industry. Maybe a designation of "certified advisor".

Your thread title reads: How can we make the advice on Piano World better? The "we" would seem to imply a collective effort to focus more closely on the advice asked for and not go beyond that by getting into subjective preferences and biases.

Your suggestion does not make the advice given here "better". It simply makes some of the advice given here appear to be 'better' than the rest.

Those who feel their advice should be given primacy over others' due to their credentials can get into those credentials in their tags by stating present and past affiliations, as well as years of experience in the piano biz. Introducing an arbitrary standard of certification just opens another can of worms.

Do those with many brand affiliations over the years post objectively to their total experience or feel a prevailing loyalty to their current suppliers (the hand that feeds)? In your case, I would bet on objectivity overruling current affiliations, but I would not bet on that in general, and I would only bet on that in your case due to reading many of your posts oover the last few years, not due to your many years of experience in the biz and your many affiliations. In other words, the actual post validates the résumé, not the other way around.

Opinions should be expresses as such, not as fact. Far to many opinions are expressed as facts. No amount of existential cleverness or wordy math topics changes the simple fact that, unless you have personally done the significant testing and/or research, it is in fact, just an opinion.

If you are repeating something you read or heard, then present the proper citations, remove yourself as the "expert" and defer to the source you speak from.

We have people here expressing their "facts"on such things as sound boards who have never installed one.

Others present hearsay on manufacturers they heard from an "industry" friend, as fact, rather than the hearsay it is.

Separate fact from opinion and identify sources.

_________________________"If I have seen further than others, it is by standing upon the shoulders of giants."Isaac Newton

Making an argument about the quality of recording ignores that most listeners here can cut through and excuse recording quality and attempt to understand what is heard due to how it sounds through misplaced mics and lacking speakers.

Insecurity on the part of the critic above would have a logical conclusion that there shouldn't ever be musical recordings because they don't match the experience in the moment of performance. All recordings are inherently inferior, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't attempt to display what is being described.

Imagine being on an illustration forum where they only write about how awesome the pictures are.

_________________________
Currently working on/memorizing..."It's You" from Robotech"He's A Pirate""Crazy Bone Rag""Claire DeLune (finally)"

#1976772 - 10/21/1203:25 PMRe: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better?
[Re: Rusty Fortysome]

pianoloverus
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 20371
Loc: New York City

Originally Posted By: Rusty Fortysome

Piano. Sound. It is just that simple.

Making an argument about the quality of recording ignores that most listeners here can cut through and excuse recording quality and attempt to understand what is heard due to how it sounds through misplaced mics and lacking speakers.

I doubt even a recording engineer could do that. I'm sure most average PW reader can't.