I like them and wish they would stay. That said, they make sense at the start of an x-pac while levelling and as heroics between hitting max lv and the first raids.

I do like more 5 mans a sthe xpac progresses (like ICC and HoT) but it feels like there is no clean solution what purpose they serve.

- should they be ball breaking hard so only hardmode raiders can crack them and drop raid equivalent loot?
- should they be somewhat hard, doable for Pugs and drop raid equivilant loot as a catch up mechanism - and be a slap in the face of all raiders?
- should they drop sidegrades and badges?

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Originally Posted by Magnesiam

YES please. Go back to the ICC way / Cataclysm way. Hell even remove LFG and have us make the groups. That would be great. Just dont make me have to gear my alts trought a random change of getting loot in a wipe fest LFR like thing.

I may be pointing out the obvious, but you still have the option to form your groups, and avoid the "wipe fest LFR like thing" - and that is called flex raiding.

I will admit that there are no hard 5 mans, but being able to form your own group has always been there.

problem with scenarios is the rewards isn't worth it, 5 mans do at first then become pointless in MoP, miss levelling my alts & gearing them up in 5mans, trying out different specs etc, had a blast in wotlk & even cata, sure healing in cata for the first time after all the heal nerfs took a bit of getting used to but I enjoyed a bit of CC, tanks having to use their cd's, plan ahead on pulling mobs & healers being prepared & watching mana.

The only reason why HC Scenarios are popular is because they are fast and grant A LOT more Valor than heroic dungeons. If they made Heroic Dungeons reward a bit more (since they're longer than scenarios) or at least the same amount of Valor as Heroic Scenarios, everyone would be doing them.

For me, Scenarios are meh, because there is no loot, but on Tuesday evenings when I need to cap my Valor, they're by far the fastest way to cap it.

Heroic Dungeons need to be brought back each tier and need to have the same ilvl of gear as LFR. The HDs should be like BC difficulty to reward the higher difficulty while there will also be normal dungeons rewarding lower ilvl loot. There needs to be an alternative to LFR to catch up an alt or gear him up each tier. Blizzard has said LFR is 'tourist' mode and so people should have an alternative. There would also be less burn out of the main raid because people wouldn't be running it as often because of the dungeons there also.

Forget Jin'do, what about… hell anything in Grim Batol or Corborus and Ozruk in Stonecore?

Basically pre-nerf any Cata Heroic dungeon. I mean, the ones who leveled to 85 in 1-2 days were quite good people, but we still struggled a lot in Random groups, and getting tanks with half DPS gear with no clue how to tank didn't help either most of the time.

Cata Heroics would be a nice difficulty level for something like "Mythic Dungeons", which upon completion would have like a 30% chance to drop an epic quality item(not random stat bullshit, actual items from a big pool of items) from a chest at the end of the dungeon, also they would give a lot more VP, gold and also random chances for non-combat pets/mounts also from the end chest.

Basically all we miss now are actually hard dungeons with rewards. Challenge modes are complete garbage when it comes to rewards, transmog set that nearly every raider has, and can be bought for gold if a casual wants it? A useless mount and title? Come on. I haven't done all of them in gold, but the ones I did were incredibly easy and didn't require much thought from the tank/healer in terms of gameplay, instead of pulling stuff carefully, you just speed run it like a Heroic dungeon.

Five man dungeons should become a more important factor of the game again. Even though Challange Modes are a great thing, I hope that the 5 man dungeons will be a more vital part in the gearing process. Dungeons like Maraudon, BRD, The Sunken Temple have been such epic experiences. I wish we would get to that level again. Having Dungeons witch can be completed within 20 minutes is okay, but it shouldn't be all such a linear rush-through.

In my oppinion Dungeon instances = Raid instances, just smaller. They can make them feel epic enough (TBC hcs, ICC hcs) to be good. I personaly hate that scenario fiasco so much that i want to puke when someone tell me "wanna do hc scenario?". I dont see any purpose in them except the lore part of them like legendary quest scenarios or Isle of Thunder scenarios.
No matter how old they are, how easy they are or how outgeared they are i always run atleast 5-6 a week and i have a lot of fun ( well i dont find them fun where there is like 2 other dpsers with SoO gear because then they just become trainwrek steamroll - nothing survaive long enough to do some dps on them).
This expansion I really missed the adding of new dungeons with each tier.

And no i dont find CM fun. They were worth only to get the gold achivments, the mount and the gear, but thats it! I never did them again, even on another toon. From my PoV CM are like you run the HC mode for the first time - same difficulty and after that they are total waste of time once you do them (again this is my opinion)

"What if I fail?" I asked myself... "What if I succeed?" I answered myself

The only reason 5 mans are obsolete at the moment is because A) Their reward structure is obsolete (463 blues + JP are both useless in 5.4) and B) They're insanely trivial because they're tuned for ilvl 450ish groups, not ilvl 550ish groups. I finished Scholomance with 5 DPS in 4 minutes tonight. FOUR MINUTES!

If Blizzard correctly rewards 5mans and releases more difficult 5mans as the expansion goes on, you'll see a resurgence in dungeon grinding. I personally vastly prefer dungeons to scenarios, though I prefer to do Heroic Scenarios now because 150 VP and a possible 516 item for 5-8 mins work is far better than 80 VP and no items for 5-15 mins work. Honestly I'm surprised that Heroic Scenarios reward so much valor and heroic dungeons reward so little. I'd change them to 100 VP for heroic scenarios (125 with the bonus) and 125 for a heroic dungeon.

I hate scenarios, I like getting extra 5 mans as the expansion moves along. MoP has been very disappointing in this regard. 5 mans have just been crap this entire expansion, TBC and Cata got it right for me. Vanilla had the best 5 mans.

I guess you could say challenge modes was a good attempt, but with rubbish rewards (at least for my classes). No reward meant I didn't really want to go out my way to do them and my friends weren't interested either.

The dungeons definitely should stay, I still run them with my main character, despite outgearing them by a mile (for JPs for heirlooms, and easy bit of reputation with one faction or another, VPs don't hurt either obviously), and I have never touched a HC scenario, and not going to, that's how much I dislike them (never touched the majority of scenarios on normal, either).
The only scenarios I have even remotely enjoyed, were single player ones, where I knew what they are about, had time to stop and listen to NPC(s) talking, etc. - they were quite nice actually, but scenario as a group experience sucks big time IMO.
Otherwise it just felt, in many cases, like getting tossed in, not knowing what the hell is going on story-wise and why am I there, no time to find out, just go go go, kill things, because others rush ahead without me (and if I stay to listen, they'll progress ahead and I won't get to experience the whole story anyhow, and/or they might opt to vote kick me for not helping, even rightly so, but the point is, that it doesn't make scenarios enjoyable for me in the slightest).
While for dungeons, I usually knew what they are about, more or less, because quests leading to them allowed me to find out, and some scripted NPC dialogue here and there (usually not skippable, think Siege of Niuzao Temple) fills me in some more.

So yeah, as far as I'm concerned, dungeons > scenarios, anytime.

(that said, it's fair if someone else enjoys scenarios more, and I wouldn't go as far as calling to remove them, I'll just continue not doing them, like with any stuff I find unenjoyable/dull/etc)

They don't grasp the potential of 5mans since TBC. It's THE content for casuals - give them a dungeon set and meaningful upgrade options (make 2+ upgrades this ilvl equal to LFR items as well!), make challenge modes + maybe some nice questchains to something that can upgrade those sets like t0,5 as well and suddenly an entire tier of content was created. LFR is the biggest problem of all - it eliminates all other catchups since it has superior items + an much higher itemlevel with every tier. Instead they should focus to exploid 5mans & scenarios + some nice quest chains to give a far better alternative to LFR. Take LFR from the catchup - Todo list (LFr is ONLY about items as it is in the game, sorry) and the alt / casual game might become a better one again. And it will last since casuals aren't that progress driven / new players will always use this instead of skipping things that have become old and never doing 5mans with current gear and so on...

You mean that place plenty of tanks dropped as soon as they got it as a random? :P

And aside from difficulty, HoR was rather boring, plenty of trash and two bosses in the same room, meh.
Escape from Arthas was a little better, but still, half of the instance run spent in the same room ain't much fun.

I'm fairly certain that the next expansion, blizz has said that they will have dungeons, lvl 100 versions of said dungeons, THEN heroic mode (with a difficulty akin to TBC-esque heroics, that you will have to find a group for to enter), and THEN challenge modes (which will continue to offer high valor rewards+vanity things), with the overall progression being scenarios=lvl 100 (lets call it normal) version of dungeon->>heroic modes->LFR raid->normal->heroic->mythic.

Do you have a source for this? I sincerely hope it isn't true, because if they require a premade group AND drop worse gear than LFR there will be no reason for anyone to ever run them. They will just be ghost towns and we will fall back into the MoP treadmill of farming LFR every week for gear, and then in the next expansion they might just remove 5 man dungeons entirely because "No one ever ran them in WoD!"

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Originally Posted by Demoneq

You mean that place plenty of tanks dropped as soon as they got it as a random? :P

I did that, but not because of the dungeon, rather because the attitude of the players who blamed everything that went wrong on the tank or healer.

If anything this attitude has gotten worse since then, and now I just que for LFR as a DPS despite the fact that I am perfectly capable of tanking it because I know that the first time anyone makes a mistake I will have a dozen people howling for my blood.*

*For example, this week in LFR I saw multiple people tell a tank they hoped he "got cancer and died slowly and painfully in real life" because one of the DPS ninja pulled a trash pack and the tank didn't pick it up fast enough to prevent several players deaths.

it's hard to realize that you are too bad to clear a heroic dungeon, isn't it? do you really have more fun doing pet battles and other panda stuff?
sure there were no alternatives for fast valor capping, but with current set of activities available for bad players, blizzard could make dungeons harder (i hope they'll do)

Do you have a source for this? I sincerely hope it isn't true, because if they require a premade group AND drop worse gear than LFR there will be no reason for anyone to ever run them. They will just be ghost towns and we will fall back into the MoP treadmill of farming LFR every week for gear, and then in the next expansion they might just remove 5 man dungeons entirely because "No one ever ran them in WoD!"

i kept doing h dungeons in cataclysm even in full DS gear simply because i liked tanking them, i tanked them on 3 different classes actually
in MOP i don't even bother with dungeons, not fun not entertaining not challenging, useless content, and challenge modes are very niche content, and i can't come home from work get some beers and queue for CM.

i kept doing h dungeons in cataclysm even in full DS gear simply because i liked tanking them, i tanked them on 3 different classes actually
in MOP i don't even bother with dungeons, not fun not entertaining not challenging, useless content, and challenge modes are very niche content, and i can't come home from work get some beers and queue for CM.

Some people might, but they would be a very small minority. I would personally like do them once or twice, but I don't think they would hold my long term interest if they offered no real reward.

I know I would love to do challenge modes, but no one I know ever wants to run one because they "offer no rewards" or because "normalized gear nerfs my character" and as there is no automated que for them I have no way to ever run one besides spamming in trade chat for hours on end (and the skills of your average trade chat pug are no better than those in LFG).