It's been framed as a black man who wanted to kill white people. Sometimes the narrative is what it is.

I guess I'm the first American to comment.

I'm sure that eventually the narrative will change to one of justification saying that the perpetrator was motivated by recent incidents involving police shootings and therefore can be understood and even excused.

Mor Ephrem is a nice guy. Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

I'm going to go out on a limb here, theoretically-speaking, to discuss violence and race.

First, however, I ask that you all take the time to watch this rather interesting video from Nikolas "Lindybeige" Lloyd, the YouTube star. In it, he discusses how military training has effectively created more 'killers.' Lloyd's presentation is spot-on. I've read some of the literature behind it.

Police training has largely been influenced by military training. That's not surprising, since many police officers are veterans. However, the additional shared territory is the use of firearms.

Up until fairly recently, the preferred 'instrument' of the average beat cop was his night stick. Even famous lawmen such as Wyatt Earp and Bat Masterson were known to most beat criminals into submission (even armed ones, knowing that most armed criminals go through the same process Lloyd describes in his video).

The plain truth is that most people do not want to kill, and that only a very small percentage actually do.

But, there is a greater problem of human violence, and how cultures interpret it. What I see happening is a widening gap in how Black America and White America interpret violence.

White America has been, in the last century, largely become completely uncomfortable with physical violence. Schoolyard fights result in punishment, and school marms punish 'aggressive' behavior in children. Thus, when physical aggression rears its head, against all of the modern conditioning of 'anger management' and 'use your words,' it is seen as truly threatening.

Black America does not play by those rules. African Americans are a lot more out-in-front with their emotions, body language, and willingness to be confrontational. I am not saying it is wrong, but I am pointing out that it is diametrically the opposite of where White American culture is. Almost all of the communication elements are opposite, from tone to physical proximity.

In schools, Black kids get in trouble because White culture is the normative theme, and that's mostly because it works well with large rooms full of children. Passive kids are easier to manage. Aggressive kids require more one-on-one attention. White kids learn that too much attention is bad. Black kids are not raised that way.

Now you move this to the streets. White police are trained, after years of conditioning to be passive, to become more accustomed to violence in the streets. It is totally alien to them, as is most Black culture and being able to 'read' when someone is being just emotional or when they are aggressive. It does not come naturally to them.

At the same time, most Blacks do not understand how hard it is for the average White person to 'get' his or her behavior. Some think all the emotion is all aggression, while others take it as a sign of weakness or immaturity (don't we tell children with emotional outbursts to "grow up"?).

When police screw up, we advocate more 'training.' What we don't realize is that most of the training reinforces the officer's already 'split personality' of having to go from passive 'listener' to 'active' shooter. It is a switch, and once it is flipped, it does not go back and forth so easily.

This is why suspects, who lead police on a long and dangerous pursuit, find themselves getting beaten after they decided to 'tap out' of the fight. The same is true when someone resists arrest.

The resisting arrest and failure to comply with the officer's instructions is, in White culture, tantamount to violence. In Black culture, it is part of the 'negotiation' between people.

Resisting arrest, which is where 90% of police violence occurs, is where the collision between two worlds occurs.

The problem we have now is that we don't seem to be able to have a discussion about this. If White people want to talk about their problems with reading Blacks, they are labelled 'racists.' The same is true when Whites find themselves having moments of discomfort because they do not want to offend a Black person: the discomfort is interpreted as 'judgment' or 'hatred,' when it is actually human concern.

These are real issues that ought to be discussed in the open. Both Blacks and White need to change. Yes, I said Blacks need to change as much as Whites. As they say, it "takes two to Tango."

We all need to become more aware of the realities of the cultural gap.

It's been framed as a black man who wanted to kill white people. Sometimes the narrative is what it is.

I guess I'm the first American to comment.

Thank you, although I was just tuned into mostly GMA on ABC morning, it seems the media is calling it like it is, not spinning it, for a change. I sense most people are concerned it all come to this

I'm afraid we are becoming a balkanzied nation

Have no fear, this has been going on for a long time. There are deep injustices committed in this country along with classes of people who refuse to take responsibility for themselves along with increasing financial pressures as wealth stratifies eliminating the middle class.

If you watch the footage from the LA riots, you'll see black people dragging white people out of their cars and beating them down far worse than Rodney King was beaten by police. The only thing those white people did was get in their truck to drive delivery and had to go through a riot area. And watch the interview of one of the men who held a truck driver down by the throat with his foot while his buddies put the boots to the rest of his body. When the truck driver tried to get up, they would come back over and kick him in the head until he went down again.

This many years later, the guy feels absolutely no remorse for his actions on that day. They got a slight little tap on the hand, did a little jail time for nearly killing that poor man who lives with permanent disability.

We just had a black President for goodness sake. That would never have happened even a hundred years ago.

This guy is a screwball who gets all the attention, whereas there were a lot of people peacefully protesting police brutality instead of acting like a bunch of thugs. So far, there is great improvement that we aren't having riots, but I haven't tuned into the news today.

Logged

A nation is not conquered until the hearts of its women are on the ground.

Then it is done, no matter how brave its warriors nor how strong their weapons -- Cheyenne proverb

I'm going to go out on a limb here, theoretically-speaking, to discuss violence and race.

First, however, I ask that you all take the time to watch this rather interesting video from Nikolas "Lindybeige" Lloyd, the YouTube star. In it, he discusses how military training has effectively created more 'killers.' Lloyd's presentation is spot-on. I've read some of the literature behind it.

Police training has largely been influenced by military training. That's not surprising, since many police officers are veterans. However, the additional shared territory is the use of firearms.

Up until fairly recently, the preferred 'instrument' of the average beat cop was his night stick. Even famous lawmen such as Wyatt Earp and Bat Masterson were known to most beat criminals into submission (even armed ones, knowing that most armed criminals go through the same process Lloyd describes in his video).

The plain truth is that most people do not want to kill, and that only a very small percentage actually do.

But, there is a greater problem of human violence, and how cultures interpret it. What I see happening is a widening gap in how Black America and White America interpret violence.

White America has been, in the last century, largely become completely uncomfortable with physical violence. Schoolyard fights result in punishment, and school marms punish 'aggressive' behavior in children. Thus, when physical aggression rears its head, against all of the modern conditioning of 'anger management' and 'use your words,' it is seen as truly threatening.

Black America does not play by those rules. African Americans are a lot more out-in-front with their emotions, body language, and willingness to be confrontational. I am not saying it is wrong, but I am pointing out that it is diametrically the opposite of where White American culture is. Almost all of the communication elements are opposite, from tone to physical proximity.

In schools, Black kids get in trouble because White culture is the normative theme, and that's mostly because it works well with large rooms full of children. Passive kids are easier to manage. Aggressive kids require more one-on-one attention. White kids learn that too much attention is bad. Black kids are not raised that way.

Now you move this to the streets. White police are trained, after years of conditioning to be passive, to become more accustomed to violence in the streets. It is totally alien to them, as is most Black culture and being able to 'read' when someone is being just emotional or when they are aggressive. It does not come naturally to them.

At the same time, most Blacks do not understand how hard it is for the average White person to 'get' his or her behavior. Some think all the emotion is all aggression, while others take it as a sign of weakness or immaturity (don't we tell children with emotional outbursts to "grow up"?).

When police screw up, we advocate more 'training.' What we don't realize is that most of the training reinforces the officer's already 'split personality' of having to go from passive 'listener' to 'active' shooter. It is a switch, and once it is flipped, it does not go back and forth so easily.

This is why suspects, who lead police on a long and dangerous pursuit, find themselves getting beaten after they decided to 'tap out' of the fight. The same is true when someone resists arrest.

The resisting arrest and failure to comply with the officer's instructions is, in White culture, tantamount to violence. In Black culture, it is part of the 'negotiation' between people.

Resisting arrest, which is where 90% of police violence occurs, is where the collision between two worlds occurs.

The problem we have now is that we don't seem to be able to have a discussion about this. If White people want to talk about their problems with reading Blacks, they are labelled 'racists.' The same is true when Whites find themselves having moments of discomfort because they do not want to offend a Black person: the discomfort is interpreted as 'judgment' or 'hatred,' when it is actually human concern.

These are real issues that ought to be discussed in the open. Both Blacks and White need to change. Yes, I said Blacks need to change as much as Whites. As they say, it "takes two to Tango."

We all need to become more aware of the realities of the cultural gap.

Oh, black people are aware of it, have been a long time. Most mothers I know school their young men to be absolutely passive when in the presence of a police officer. They already know what happens, but some choose to act out anyway.

Police also behave the same way with white people, not to say there isn't racism in the ranks of the police, but they can be brutal to just about anyone. They are famous around here for gunning down the mentally ill.

I'm so glad you post here Father.

« Last Edit: July 09, 2016, 12:27:43 PM by Velsigne »

Logged

A nation is not conquered until the hearts of its women are on the ground.

Then it is done, no matter how brave its warriors nor how strong their weapons -- Cheyenne proverb

Oh, black people are aware of it, have been a long time. Most mothers I know school their young men to be absolutely passive when in the presence of a police officer. They already know what happens, but some choose to act out anyway.

Police also behave the same way with white people, not to say there isn't racism in the ranks of the police, but they can be brutal to just about anyone. They are famous around here for gunning down the mentally ill.

I'm so glad you post here Father.

Yes, but there is a profound difference between 'schooling' someone for an occasional encounter and a regular part of one's own normative approach. That's what leads to young people not listening to mom and taking things in a direction they are not entirely understanding the consequences of.

For example, I don't think most people who resist arrest understand that the officer may very well think you are trying to kill him just by lifting your hand off of the hood during a search. When you watch the genuine surprise in the face of someone getting pounded into the pavement just because he refused to obey a single command, you can see that he's never encountered that kind of consistency before.

I remember in school watching Black teachers deal with Black students. They had a tolerance for disrespect, back-talking, and disobedience that was unmatched. I would have pulverized some of those kids, but they took the time to argue them down. In a few cases, they also laid hands on them in a way that would have gotten a White teacher fired, except that the Black kids didn't complain. They understood what was going on. Of course, that was 30 years ago.

So, I don't think Black Americans necessarily get White Americans any more than the opposite way. In fact, I think very few people can successfully go back and forth between two different cultures. I watch my parish's immigrant children really struggle in that area.

From growing up in a mixed race environment (and presently living in a minority-majority community), I had to learn how to at least not give off offensive behaviors. I learned to 'lean in' and match tone. It diffuses a lot of misunderstandings.

Yesterday, I was standing in line in a shop. The cashier and a customer were chatting (both Black women) and discussing hair care products and complimenting one another's hairdos. They were also eye-balling the shaggy-bearded, long-haired, biker-looking guy (me) and whispering. I knew what was up. I was scaring them (I'm even scarier in a cassock).

I leaned over the counter and said, in a loud voice, "You know, nobody ever asks me about my hair, except to ask how long this took to grow!" I tugged my beard. The whole store burst out in laughter. Instantly, we were friends. I would never do that around White folks.

Now, you are right about 'The Switch' getting flipped with Whites as well. Police are now trained to how and when to flip the switch. We need to have a real discussion about how and why police are trained the way they are. Frankly, I think it should be a part of every school's curriculum.

The problem we have now is that we don't seem to be able to have a discussion about this. If White people want to talk about their problems with reading Blacks, they are labelled 'racists.' The same is true when Whites find themselves having moments of discomfort because they do not want to offend a Black person: the discomfort is interpreted as 'judgment' or 'hatred,' when it is actually human concern.

These are real issues that ought to be discussed in the open. Both Blacks and White need to change. Yes, I said Blacks need to change as much as Whites. As they say, it "takes two to Tango."

We all need to become more aware of the realities of the cultural gap.

I think a contributing problem for a lot of white people is that they can't or don't conceive of racism as existing as anything other than an intentional hatred or intentional actions towards someone because of their race, and of course if that is true, then racist = bad person. People want to be good people. So thinking of racism as an institutional problem or something someone can unknowingly engage in without being evil or a bad person is a huge stumbling block to a discussion. Thinking of it in only moral terms makes people defensive, because again, no one wants to be anything other than a good person.

The problem we have now is that we don't seem to be able to have a discussion about this. If White people want to talk about their problems with reading Blacks, they are labelled 'racists.' The same is true when Whites find themselves having moments of discomfort because they do not want to offend a Black person: the discomfort is interpreted as 'judgment' or 'hatred,' when it is actually human concern.

These are real issues that ought to be discussed in the open. Both Blacks and White need to change. Yes, I said Blacks need to change as much as Whites. As they say, it "takes two to Tango."

We all need to become more aware of the realities of the cultural gap.

I think a contributing problem for a lot of white people is that they can't or don't conceive of racism as existing as anything other than an intentional hatred or intentional actions towards someone because of their race, and of course if that is true, then racist = bad person. People want to be good people. So thinking of racism as an institutional problem or something someone can unknowingly engage in without being evil or a bad person is a huge stumbling block to a discussion. Thinking of it in only moral terms makes people defensive, because again, no one wants to be anything other than a good person.

I think that's because race and culture have become confused.

I think a lot of Black people think of their culture as being an inherent part of their 'racial identity,' whereas the common White narrative is that culture and race a separable. This is a critical distinction that often does not get discussed.

So, what most Whites think is that Black are intentionally counter-cultural. There are some Blacks who are, but there are also plenty more who have been raised that to be born Black means one must comply with the culture of Black Americans.

I think most White Americans feel that it is OK to question or dislike aspects of Black culture, but not attribute it to Black people themselves. On the Other hand, I'm not entirely sure that this is understood by all African-Americans, who may feel judged as persons for what questioned about their larger culture.

The problem we have now is that we don't seem to be able to have a discussion about this. If White people want to talk about their problems with reading Blacks, they are labelled 'racists.' The same is true when Whites find themselves having moments of discomfort because they do not want to offend a Black person: the discomfort is interpreted as 'judgment' or 'hatred,' when it is actually human concern.

These are real issues that ought to be discussed in the open. Both Blacks and White need to change. Yes, I said Blacks need to change as much as Whites. As they say, it "takes two to Tango."

We all need to become more aware of the realities of the cultural gap.

I think a contributing problem for a lot of white people is that they can't or don't conceive of racism as existing as anything other than an intentional hatred or intentional actions towards someone because of their race, and of course if that is true, then racist = bad person. People want to be good people. So thinking of racism as an institutional problem or something someone can unknowingly engage in without being evil or a bad person is a huge stumbling block to a discussion. Thinking of it in only moral terms makes people defensive, because again, no one wants to be anything other than a good person.

I think that's because race and culture have become confused.

I think a lot of Black people think of their culture as being an inherent part of their 'racial identity,' whereas the common White narrative is that culture and race a separable. This is a critical distinction that often does not get discussed.

So, what most Whites think is that Black are intentionally counter-cultural. There are some Blacks who are, but there are also plenty more who have been raised that to be born Black means one must comply with the culture of Black Americans.

I think most White Americans feel that it is OK to question or dislike aspects of Black culture, but not attribute it to Black people themselves. On the Other hand, I'm not entirely sure that this is understood by all African-Americans, who may feel judged as persons for what questioned about their larger culture.

Mor Ephrem is a nice guy. Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

These are real issues that ought to be discussed in the open. Both Blacks and White need to change. Yes, I said Blacks need to change as much as Whites. As they say, it "takes two to Tango.

So what are you saying?

Do whites need to act more infantile or do some blacks need to join the rest of civilization?

Because all this "tolerance" nonsense is getting us nowhere.

Except dead.

I think that the 'tolerance' movement has shown to be 'intolerant.'

So, Whites need to speak up in a way they are not used to. It means being 'rude' at times. I think we need to say what is on our minds, like "If you wrestle with a police officer, we are OK with you getting shot." That's what a lot of White people are thinking, even though they won't admit it. I think a lot of Blacks simply object to the fact that we won't just admit it.

And then we point out that those are the rules of the 'street' anyhow. Don't be afraid to show how rap music encourages that same kind of behavior, and ask why it is OK for gang members but not for police. You can't expect police to defend you against violent people if they are not violent men. We need to get rid of the idea that police are anything other than the brute force of society against its most brutal elements.

I'm also all for using the Russian model: the traffic police are different from the law enforcement police. Lots of problems arise from traffic stops, and I think that by differentiating these tasks, you create a different atmosphere. Traffic police just write tickets and don't make arrests.

I also think that Africa-Americans need to loosen up a little bit with their own sense of obligation to defend or excuse those members of their community who are bad. Whites are expected to immediately denounce racists, and so they should disown those who embarrass the community.

I think Whites would feel a great deal better about BLM, for example, if it didn't flip out in response to "All Lives Matter." Yes, everyone gets that you are upset, but when you go back to the 'it is just about us' thing, you are undermining the message of Martin Luther King, which essentially embarrassed and inspired White America out of the Jim Crow mentality. It worked. But, now that it is being abandoned, the Civil Rights Movement has essentially ground to a halt.

If the BLM movement said, "how you treat Blacks is really about what you think of yourselves," I think it would cause a lot of soul-searching. The problem is that the message has become 'partisan,' and so it will go nowhere.

I think a lot of Black people think of their culture as being an inherent part of their 'racial identity,' whereas the common White narrative is that culture and race a separable. This is a critical distinction that often does not get discussed.

Amd yet the common Black narrative on White "culture" and race is that it is inseparable . As I have grown up around black culture as well, I know all too well of Whites from their vantage point.

Quote

So, what most Whites think is that Black are intentionally counter-cultural.

Actually, growing up (I think were close in age) it was the other way around. We were more or less taught that it wasn't intentional but more of their upbringing and nature.

Quote

There are some Blacks who are, but there are also plenty more who have been raised that to be born Black means one must comply with the culture of Black Americans.

This is absolutley true from my experience. the minute they didn't they were treated as "Uncle Tom's".

Quote

think most White Americans feel that it is OK to question or dislike aspects of Black culture, but not attribute it to Black people themselves.

How in the world do you separate the two? I'm being honest here. Or, reverse that statement. does it ring the same? Seems ALL whites are being judged these days by a few rogue cops or what happened somewhere down South by a few plantation owners, yet we're all being held accountable by the mere fact of being "white" (whatever that it) ourselves.

Quote

On the Other hand, I'm not entirely sure that this is understood by all African-Americans, who may feel judged as persons for what questioned about their larger culture.

I think a lot of Black people think of their culture as being an inherent part of their 'racial identity,' whereas the common White narrative is that culture and race a separable. This is a critical distinction that often does not get discussed.

Amd yet the common Black narrative on White "culture" and race is that it is inseparable . As I have grown up around black culture as well, I know all too well of Whites from their vantage point.

Quote

So, what most Whites think is that Black are intentionally counter-cultural.

Actually, growing up (I think were close in age) it was the other way around. We were more or less taught that it wasn't intentional but more of their upbringing and nature.

Quote

There are some Blacks who are, but there are also plenty more who have been raised that to be born Black means one must comply with the culture of Black Americans.

This is absolutley true from my experience. the minute they didn't they were treated as "Uncle Tom's".

Quote

think most White Americans feel that it is OK to question or dislike aspects of Black culture, but not attribute it to Black people themselves.

How in the world do you separate the two? I'm being honest here. Or, reverse that statement. does it ring the same? Seems ALL whites are being judged these days by a few rogue cops or what happened somewhere down South by a few plantation owners, yet we're all being held accountable by the mere fact of being "white" (whatever that it) ourselves.

Quote

On the Other hand, I'm not entirely sure that this is understood by all African-Americans, who may feel judged as persons for what questioned about their larger culture.

That works both ways.

When I was in college, we had a number of 'Orange County Blacks,' a reference to African Americans whose families moved to the prosperous sections of Orange County south of Los Angeles. Their parents were successful upper-middle-class people, and moved into exclusively white neighborhoods.

These kids were African-American via DNA, but that's about it. They went to school with Whites, and that's the only culture they knew. When they got to USC, they simply could not hang out at the Black Student Union. It was actually rather sad, because they got more grief from fellow Black students than they did from the most 'insensitive' Whites, who usually got verbally pounded by their White friends if they said something stupid.

In high school, we had the reverse: White kids who grew up in South Central LA and were bussed in. They were completely 'enculturated' in Black culture and avoided any contact with other White students. If they spoke from behind the door, you would not be able to tell them apart from their Black friends.

So, there are other examples: I went through Boot Camp with a Korean-American guy who was adopted and raised by White parents. He thought kimchee was disgusting.

SJWs will have problems to explain this shooting, I'll be waiting anxiously for their reaction. I also forsee someone singing 'Imagine' in the place of the shooting.

No, they won't. According to them, all white people, especially white cops, getting killed by a black man will be totally justified and excused to make up for past injustices.

I happen to be a SJW who is largely sympathetic to the Black Lives Matter movement (and by largely, I mean totally). I also work for a law enforcement agency, so guess again.

so you have other issues.

Social justice is the vice of envy trying to pass itself off as virtue.

« Last Edit: July 09, 2016, 02:48:32 PM by ialmisry »

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Mor Ephrem is a nice guy. Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.