My idea of a "compromise" would be to allow sportsmen (hunters/trappers/anglers) floatplane access to the interior of the Adirondacks (yes, Wilderness areas) during the trout and big game seasons. As for Glacier, I've been there and having mule deer eat out of my hand isn't exactly a "wild" experience.

In Mr. Dweller's vision if I'm tracking a buck in the Wilcox Lake Wild Forest and it goes over to the Siamese Ponds Wilderness I'd have to give up the track. Not only is that a bunch of crap but it's also discrimination. There's a few users of the Forest Preserve I prefer not to encounter but they have as much of a right to be there as I and we must tolerate each other.

As for thinking you'd see more wildlife if more predators were hunting them instead of humans; you are in Disneyland. In the past two decades coyotes have become more prevalent in all three of my main Adirondack hunting areas. I'm still successful at finding deer, but I have to work to see them as they are more skittish then ever. Even the deer around my home do not come out into the open the way they used to and fawn recruitement is way down. So, be careful what you wish for.

The Adirondacks are not perfect, but I'll take them the way they are and I see all kinds of wildlife (deer, bear, turkey, coyotes, fox, fisher, marten, mink, eagles) all year long; especially during hunting season. The only thing I rarely encounter are bobcats, but they are there. Perhaps you should work on your woodsmanship skills if you want to see more wildlife.

forest dweller

09-28-2016 12:03 PM

They have roads in national parks...yes, enough to give you some access, but the backcountry is protected AS wilderness - EVEN MORE SO than actual designated wilderness on national forest land or BLM land, where they allow hunting. I PREFER the backcountry in national parks because to me that is MORE pure wilderness...you're not allowed to kill the things that live there. And YES I know that Wrangell St Elias is a preserve AND a park - but at least they have PARK (no hunting) and PRESERVE (hunting allowed primarily because there aren't too many supermarkets around to by beef).

The Adironacks should have both also. I know this is new thinking and new thinking scares old conformist authoritarians, especially if they are biased and like doing something somebody else thinks we ought to stop doing...but you're a big boy and should be able to think outside the box.

montcalm

09-28-2016 12:11 PM

I'm not a hunter or angler... but I have to think of it from this perspective.

If I was living a somewhat simple, subsistence-based life as some do in more remote areas, the Adirondacks being a prime example in the east, I would hunt and eat meat. Why? There aren't exactly supermarkets everywhere and why put more strain on the rest of the world and their meat production industry (which don't even get me started) when you could eat the most natural meat known to man. Also it's just way, way cheaper.

Again, why are we protecting deer and not the moss? Seems arbitrary. If the deer populations are not so low as to threaten the population, its really no different. Except somehow it is?

montcalm

09-28-2016 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by forest dweller
(Post 251345)

They have roads in national parks...yes, enough to give you some access, but the backcountry is protected AS wilderness - EVEN MORE SO than actual designated wilderness on national forest land or BLM land, where they allow hunting. I PREFER the backcountry in national parks because to me that is MORE pure wilderness...you're not allowed to kill the things that live there.

So adding roads that fragment the animal populations but allows YOU more access is OK, but hunting is not?

forest dweller

09-28-2016 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buckladd
(Post 251344)

As for Glacier, I've been there and having mule deer eat out of my hand isn't exactly a "wild" experience.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buckladd
(Post 251344)

As for thinking you'd see more wildlife if more predators were hunting them instead of humans; you are in Disneyland.

You may not realize it but you did in fact just contradict yourself.

forest dweller

09-28-2016 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by montcalm
(Post 251347)

So adding roads that fragment the animal populations but allows YOU more access is OK, but hunting is not?

Nobody would accept zero roads in parks, you put a minimum amount in to get some reasonable access.

And yes, lots of hunters kill more wildlife than a FEW roads do.

Combine the two, animals accidentally killed by cars and animals deliberately killed by people and it is probably an unacceptable amount...to people that don't like animals being killed.

montcalm

09-28-2016 01:00 PM

Still avoiding my other questions... but I suppose that's just for YOUR convenience.

One glaring fact: People hunted these lands long before there were ever roads and when they were in fact true wilderness.

Just because you don't like hunting, doesn't mean it doesn't have a place in Wilderness lands.

I'm not sure for the reasons why hunting is limited in NPs, but I tend to think it is more along the lines of human motivation i.e. tourism rather than actual wildlife conservation.

Buckladd

09-28-2016 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by forest dweller
(Post 251349)

You may not realize it but you did in fact just contradict yourself.

If the zoo-like encounters with mulies at Glacier picnic areas is what you want in the ADK back country, then, yes, it's a contradiction.

Buckladd

09-28-2016 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by montcalm
(Post 251346)

I'm not a hunter or angler... but I have to think of it from this perspective.

If I was living a somewhat simple, subsistence-based life as some do in more remote areas, the Adirondacks being a prime example in the east, I would hunt and eat meat. Why? There aren't exactly supermarkets everywhere and why put more strain on the rest of the world and their meat production industry (which don't even get me started) when you could eat the most natural meat known to man. Also it's just way, way cheaper.

Exactly, but there are so many reasons people hunt or fish. For me it is my family heritage and my earliest experiences outdoors were at streams, woods and deer camps. Hunting changed my life when I was a young person and maybe going in a questionable direction. I can't imagine not hunting or someone trying to control when and where I do it beyond current regulations.

As for the localvore thing, we like that too. My wife and I both enjoy venison, wild turkey and certain fish I bring home. I'll eat bear but she won't. But mostly we use venison as a supplement and a good one at that. We also share with our friends who don't hunt but like venison, and there are a lot of them. I've got a crockpot of venison chili going right now! I'm just about out of last year's supply; just in time for the upcoming deer season.

Gman

09-28-2016 03:29 PM

So you still have Venison left from last season...almost a year. Way too long for this guy.

Every year I do a bass trip in late June with a bunch of guys. Every year I smoke a brisket, some ribs and chicken. One guy brings a bunch of frozen venison and every year the hunters all go: Mmmm I'm really looking forward to a feed of venison. Well every year we're stuck with an uneaten heaping platter of venison. It gets wrapped up and someone says I'll take it home but I bet it ends up in the garbage. Makes you wonder what the deer died for.

montcalm

09-28-2016 03:50 PM

Interesting. I don't eat it anymore, but I recall when I was kid we'd eat venison all year round. We'd also eat pork too and I'm sure we didn't have pigs butchered more than once a year.

I do recall there was an order in which you wanted to eat things. I think towards the end it was all ground and stew meat.

Buckladd

09-28-2016 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gman
(Post 251360)

So you still have Venison left from last season...almost a year. Way too long for this guy.

Every year I do a bass trip in late June with a bunch of guys. Every year I smoke a brisket, some ribs and chicken. One guy brings a bunch of frozen venison and every year the hunters all go: Mmmm I'm really looking forward to a feed of venison. Well every year we're stuck with an uneaten heaping platter of venison. It gets wrapped up and someone says I'll take it home but I bet it ends up in the garbage. Makes you wonder what the deer died for.

The benefits of a food saver/vacuum seal. We eat it like crazy during the hunting season when it's fresh, then we back off during the holidays. I always save some for ice fishing and summer camping trips. That is, assuming we have a good year. We also make venison cube steaks, which are incredible. Venison is much better for you than beef and the deer I hunt are mostly living off what they eat in the mountains. It's the best, in my opinion.

Neil

09-28-2016 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by forest dweller
(Post 251350)

Combine the two, animals accidentally killed by cars and animals deliberately killed by people and it is probably an unacceptable amount...to people that don't like animals being killed.

I would bet that parasites, predators, starvation and the elements kill way more wildlife than hunters and cars put together.

I respectfully submit that legal hunting is not a prominent issue in considering wildlife numbers in the ADKs. In the Pocono region of Pennsylvania, we have more deer, bears, and turkeys than you can shake a stick at, as well as a bountiful load of hunters each year.

The more telling factor is what the local habitat can support. We have tons of acorns for wildlife, for example, and not nearly the harsh winters that deep freeze the ADKs for months on end.

Illegal hunting, though, may be another story especially when done over baited stands.

forest dweller

09-29-2016 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neil
(Post 251367)

I would bet that parasites, predators, starvation and the elements kill way more wildlife than hunters and cars put together.

Then they have to deal with that in addition to hunters and automobiles.

Buckladd

09-30-2016 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by poconoron
(Post 251457)

I respectfully submit that legal hunting is not a prominent issue in considering wildlife numbers in the ADKs. In the Pocono region of Pennsylvania, we have more deer, bears, and turkeys than you can shake a stick at, as well as a bountiful load of hunters each year.

The more telling factor is what the local habitat can support. We have tons of acorns for wildlife, for example, and not nearly the harsh winters that deep freeze the ADKs for months on end.

Illegal hunting, though, may be another story especially when done over baited stands.

Most illegal hunting such as baiting, jacking and hunting out of season are done in areas that are easily accessible. The participants are not considered hunters, just takers. I agree it is a problem and pretty much always has been. It would be a much bigger one if legal hunting ceased to exist. These days fish and wildlife agencies don't manage wildlife, they manage people.

Schultzz

10-01-2016 02:17 AM

I know some Native Americans (Indians) who hunt deer year round. I have pulled several deer out for them with my quad. (They don't hunt within the Blue Line). That's the way they were raised and they use pretty much the whole deer. They make crafts and gifts from the animal but the meat, they eat. I wouldn't say they hunt only on the rez, but they see nothing wrong with that.

yayabrazie

10-01-2016 08:40 AM

When I was working with the forest rangers they said that the moose abundant moose population was located in Franklin County. This was up near Gold Smith Rd on your way to Plattsburg from Saranac Lake. If you ever go that way I would highly recommend going down this road.
Ive seen moose tracks almost every time. My first moose sighting was in Paul Smiths of May 2015.

You want to see a bear? I would recommend the Whitney Wilderness area (Last time I saw them there was Thanksgiving). Or Old Forge

poconoron

10-01-2016 11:34 AM

I've seen moose tracks in the Perkins clearing area above Speculator nearly every time I've been there.