03/01/2018

animats Tries to Push RLV and BDMS on to the Public Roads of Second Life

Wow, I knew my instinct bout this creep was correct and now I see it's not just platformista crap driving him, but a desire to use RLV, the BDSM third-party viewer, as a "kludgy fix" for sim crossings -- and thus impose BDSM all over the mainland on the public roads, and of course enable this to be used by bad actors as even the awful Klytyna admits.

Yes, it's a day when hell is freezing over when I'd ever agree with Klytyna, but even she gets it about the awfulness of this imposition.

Only on land enabled for that experience. There are some LL-sponsored grid-wide experiences, but LL had to enable that. In the early stages of this, RLV seems to be the way to go. Or having the avatar wear an attachment which uses llTeleportAgent.

You are currently alpha testing a klunky kludge fix using a customised rlv relay (that you seem to know very little about rlv isn't encouraging, thiose comments about 'open relays').

LL will NEVER endorse or support an rlv/rlva based fix for vehicle crossings, nor will most vehicle makers be willing to rewrite all their scripts to use rlv on a custom channel, and such a channel will leak out and social undesirables will attempt to use it as a backdoor relay channel for nefarious purposes.

However, an experience based system could be something they would agree to implement on their "no perms asked for or needed" grid wide experiences, like the ones they use in their portals for example.

...

If you MUST use rlv/rlva, I'd suggest binningthe relay entirely. Worn attachments do NOT need relays to control the wearers rlv enabled viewer at all. so instead of trying to get rlv in all the vehicles, then using some lame ass custom relay to pick up on channel spam, just write an rlv hud that allows you to indicate the vehicle you are on and which will then attempt to resit you on that if you come off.

llRegionSayTo is limited to the current region. llShout can cross a region boundary. This problem always involves at least two regions, obviously.

You should only be trying to force sit an avatar on a vehicle when they are BOTH in the same region anyway, so that's not an issue or shouldn't be if you were doing this right.

In addition, regionsayto is PRIVATE, goes directly to the target alone... Shout goes to every scripted listener in 100 m range, which must then trigger listen events, and do the whole laborious process of checking source channel number, source authorisation and syntax parsing to see if what your channel spam is shouting is something they need to deal with.

Oh, and I am confident I've written a damn sight more rlv code than you have... If you plan on using rlv/rlva, try asking people who use it and code it regularly, people like Innula for example, or me.

I'm trying to diagnose the problem well enough that LL can fix it. Their resources are limited, they admit. This bug has been outstanding for years because it was hard to reproduce. Now it's easy to reproduce in a controlled test situation. This makes it a repeatable, testable bug. Such bugs are fixable.

I TOLD you what the lag problem in crossings was back on page 1 of the thread, when I outlined the process by which an avatar is moved from region to region. Part of it is basically the whole sorry business of rezzing your bald naked ruthed carcas, then sucking down your inventory list, and figuring which items are going to be attached, then starting up all the scripts in them using stored script memory states.

I've seen over scripted avatars (400 plus scripts running 1200 ms cpu time, push their cpu time to OVER 9999 ms on entering a sim, how much over is hard to say, my meter only ran to 4 digits, but typically, you can expect an avatar entering a new region to have its script cpu times run up to 800-900% over 'normal' while everything loads from the asset servers.

That's where your lag is coming from, the new region sucking down data from the asset server system so it knows what you have and what of that is actually attached and what state its in, EVERYTIME you cross a boundry, so driving in circles where 4 regions meet...

You are leaving one region before it's finished receiving you from the previous region... BOOM

It's time to STOP doing things the "31 flavours of Whinux" way and think SMART not HARD.

The big problem, as is well known, is starting a new region crossing before the previous one is finished. We can now do that without slowing down before the region crossing. I have a vehicle which, when it gets the "changed" event that indicates a vehicle region crossing, stops the vehicle hard by turning off physics. That holds the vehicle locked in place until the avatar has made the crossing and is re-seated. Then it turns physics back on and restores the previous velocity. Typical wait times at single region crossings are 40-150 milliseconds. The user sees this as a slightly longer region crossing pause than usual.

This avoids a too-fast region crossing without adding unnecessary delay. If the sim is slow or there's network lag, it will wait longer, as needed, until all the avatars catch up. If you're making an region crossing nowhere near another region boundary, we can probably skip the hold completely. Racers will want that.

It's possible to fail a double region crossing, but I have to add 1000ms of packet delay on the network, using network test tools, and slam into the center of the X where four regions intersect at above 50mph to break it. That creates a race condition where there are two region crossings before the "changed" event reaches the script and stops the vehicle. Then I get the "half-unsit" bug. An automatic slowdown when headed for a circle about 4-5m in radius around a region crossing should prevent this.

More testing is needed. Multi-passenger vehicles and aircraft need to be tested. But so far, so good. Works in the sandbox, works on the road.

More progress. Did about 15 sim crossings with two avatars on a bike. Sometimes there's a stall of about 1.5 secs while both avatars catch up, but then we go. The script for this pauses the vehicle until all avatars are properly seated after the region cross, so this should work for many-passenger vehicles. I need to load up a bus with avis and take video.

There is a difference between "two sim crossings too fast", and "two sim crossings that overlap". The first seems to be fixed by this, which waits for sim crossings to finish. For the second, you have to be within about 2-3 meters of the junction of four sims. More on that later. I may just force speed way down when very close to a junction. I'll know after more testing.

I have a retrofit script that I can stick in existing vehicles. You don't have to modify the existing scripts, just add this one. Possible aftermarket product.

The problem is that the Lindens LOVE this sort of "scientific experiment" and if it involves harassing everyone along the way like me, they only glory in it more.

Also note the fascinating co-morbidity between BDSM and rape RP -- a particular horrid form of BDSM -- and this way of thinking, scripting and imposing code on everybody on a platform as a platformista, operating at the "meta" level of the platform in disregard of those who want to live on sims without this platformism in their faces in the form of scripts, driverless cars, etc.

My reply

Re: You are currently alpha testing a klunky kludge fix using a customised rlv relay (that you seem to know very little about rlv isn't encouraging, thiose comments about 'open relays').

LL will NEVER endorse or support an rlv/rlva based fix for vehicle crossings, nor will most vehicle makers be willing to rewrite all their scripts to use rlv on a custom channel, and such a channel will leak out and social undesirables will attempt to use it as a backdoor relay channel for nefarious purposes.

Yes, this is one of those extremely rare cases when I'd agree with Klytyna

Why is BDMS coming out of the bedroom into the public roads? That's really the question to ask here.

Many people in SL, including myself, who repudiate BDSM as an ideology will still, in the name of individual freedom and choice, tolerate BDSM as an individual social choice by people for their private lives, including in a virtual world.

But they will not tolerate it being imposed on them in any way in the public sphere.

And that's what is happening here.

Often I see in RL as in SL a certain ideological gambit to normalize BDSM and impose it on the public sphere, where it begins to encroach on the individual rights of others -- by finding some means, such as with "50 Shades of Grey" of making it seem "okay". There's the issue, for example, of doms who parade around women in chains grovelling to them at various merchants' events or public events. That makes people uncomfortable for sure. But there's always that pushing of the envelope by some. And when they push their envelope, it's perfectly fine to push back and say the public sphere has to be free of coercion.

There's the other issue of people who view Second Life as a platform sandbox for them to implement their fantasies of platform influence and control, even as other people have a different immersive take on SL and seek to have a private live on a sim without platformistas harassing them -- this is an old debate that one can find on the old forums in 2004-2007.

There's also this: the Lindens have been working on sim seams since the dawn of time.

I recall Philip once explained to me in copious detail, using napkins at at lunch during the SL meet-up in Chicago, what the problems were in the sim seam challenge. You know child thingie looking into the next sim, a hand off thing, a this, a that, or -- as the Russian fairy tale characters say: go-there-I-know-not-where, fetch-that-I-know-not-what.

Remember, Philip had a degree in physics, he wasn't just a computer engineer.

Of course, Klytyna, as I know from repeated personal experience can shoot down somebody's idea or attempt to understand a thing or get action on it and newbies can suffer from this sort of hazing on the forums. But there's hazing in the other direction, too, when somebody thinks they can build a better mouse-trap AND impose it on the public. As animats has made clear, it's not just that he is experimenting with his own personal cars and scripts to explore -- that would be one thing. His aim is to add a fleet of driverless cars to roam around the sims, joining the other spam on the roads, and find problems and then alert residents or Lindens to fix them. And I for one find that as onerous, and I think others would, too. I think these concerns should be addressed in the form of a ticket to the Lindens, on a case-by-case basis, by those directly affected.

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The Lindens may close this down -- their heads may explose because they love Klytyna and they likely love animats too -- both are SO like certain furry techie Lindens -- but they may have to choose one over the other.

The problem with Klytyna, of course, who is BDSM herself evidently, is that she's not an honest broker on these issues as we've seen from numerous nasty interventions she's made not only harassing me (I'm not there much) but many others, especially new people.

She notes the issue of shouting of the scripts, too, which nobody needs. But then she's all too willing to figure out where this can "go". People like animats need to buy their own sims and put their BDSM RP crap on that sim and leave the public sphere alone. The end. The Lindens should ensure this.