Some names! Only the founding head of the Cheka, his successor and his successor as heads of the OGPU: three of the most powerful and influential men in the country. I'd have assumed instant familiarity on your part of these people. If you were unaware of who they were...well, that speaks for itself!

Originally Posted by making waves

...and ignore the fact that the powerbase built by the Stalinists within the Communist Party was based on old Tsarist administrators, NEPmen and elements of the wealthier peasantry. The face that the Stalinists included some old Bolsheviks does not negate this point - most of the leadership of the Bolshevik Party in 1917 were in opposition to the Stalinists and were 'liquidated'

That is an assertion, nothing more. What foundation exists for it?
Meanwhile some more friends of Stalin:Budenny, Mikoyan, Voroshilov, Ordzhonikidze. More Tsarists, eh?

Originally Posted by making waves

Where have I ever argued that Trotsky did not implement repression - during the civil war and in response to White Terror. Trotsky opposed blah blah blah...bureaucracy.

We've been over this before. I'm not wasting my time repeating myself.

Originally Posted by making waves

And you are at the same stuff here again - creating paper castles to knock down -
1. I never argued that the Black Hundreds were in a position to or capable of attaining power - I claimed that the Black Hundreds were a fascist party that had a pre-WW1 existence.

I never said a word about the Black Hundreds attaining power. Now I see you're brazenly lying about things that I said which is blatantly stupid as I can easily quote your post.

Originally Posted by making waves

. I never made any claim for Payne about the Black Hundreds - the reference to Payne was to refute your allegation that fascism was a post-WW1 phenomenon - Payne clearly outlines that fascist ideology emerged in the 1880s and the first fascist organisations emerged before the turn of the century.

Are you a complete imbecile? I have read Payne, He says no such thing. Show me the quotation (Good luck with that!) What he did say was this...."Russia before 1914 was too underdeveloped to harbor all the stimuli and forces which would soon bring fascism to life in central Europe. (quoting from, Laqeuer 'Black Hundred') "Though it was moving in the direction of Fascism , the URP was as yet very far from reaching this indistinct goal".
Are you suffering from dementia. I quoted this one page back!

Originally Posted by making waves

Now - if you want to continue this debate I suggest that you do it in an honest fashion rather than constantly attempting to refute claims that I never made.

Claims like....

Originally Posted by making waves

The Black Hundreds were the fascist party in Russia dating from the 19th century - and they had representatives in the Tsarist Duma.

Originally Posted by making waves

Fascism in Russia dates to the 1890s.

And finally...

Originally Posted by making waves

The Black Hundreds were a fascist party.....As for providing evidence....Stanley Payne, A History of Fascism, (London, 1995)

So. You brought up Payne's book and yet the only quotation relating to the Black Hundreds from it does not support-it contradicts it, in fact-your assertion. Your use of materials shows either senility, stupidity or delusion. If this is the way you work I think we can take it as read that every reference you have made or are making is either a complete misrepresentation or a complete lie. Of course, you dug yourself into this hole as you never imagined that I could access a copy of Payne's book and thought you could go on your merry way lying about the contents of books that you claim to be referencing. Of course,there are other books on Fascism. None of them (Arendt, Nolte to name two) support your eccentric notion.

Originally Posted by making waves

I was wondering how long it would take for some far-right nutjob to regurgitate this urban myth.

So you have evidence to the contrary, I take it?

Originally Posted by making waves

As yes - Churchill - the man who ordered civilians be bombed with poison gas during the Russian Civil War.

Ah. "Ad Hominem" which, as everybody knows, doesn't invalidate the point.https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/19/o...man-agent.html
" The evidence assembled by Kerensky’s justice department, much of which has only recently been rediscovered in the Russian archives, was damning. No matter Lenin’s real intentions, it is undeniable that he received German logistical and financial support in 1917, and that his actions, from antiwar agitation in the Russian armies to his request for an unconditional cease-fire, served the interests of Russia’s wartime enemy in Berlin".
We look forward to historians making use of these documents with bated breath.

About Politics.ie

Politics.ie is one of Ireland's leading politics and current affairs discussion websites with more than 600,000 visitors a month. Founded in 2003, Politics.ie has one of the most engaged, respected and influential politics and current affairs communities.