The West did not need "more canons". Those from the Quinisext was quite sufficient, but the west chose to not implement them.

Since the entire Council of Trullo seems to have been little more than an exercise in Byzantine triumphalism, which is certainly how almost all of the Latin West perceived it at the time and forever after, it's no surprise they never implemented its canons.

In fact, wasn't Trullo around the time that Rome and Constantinople started having an endless tit-for-tat struggle over whose traditions were better? Eventually culminating three centuries later with the active Latinizing of Southern Italy and Byzantinizing of Constantinople's Latins.

Like probably thirty percent of all.North American Orthodox Christians today, my ancestors in Europe were pious, faithful Eastern Catholics for centuries. They didn't wake up one day and say, "Yurko, let's stop being Pravoslavs today and submit to that Pope guy in Rome. " "OK, Vasil, sounds good to me." Nor did the reverse occur in the late 19th through middle 20th centuries when a crisis in faith caused a large shift to return to Orthodoxy.

I mention this because all of my life I've put up with the well intentioned (I presume) but tone deaf proclamations of "This or THAT is not Orthodox -enough!" Churches came over to Orthodoxy from the Unia intact, many with tiered altars and new ones, built as the faithful remembered them from Europe , often as a labor of love, by simple hard working people who not only chose to leave family and parishes they built twenty years before. They weren't retrofitted to.meet some arbitrary schedule.

To say it was disheartening for them to hear other Orthodox stand and condescendingly judge them as being "inferior" or not really Orthodox is an understatement. Like it or not, that attitude hardened feelings for generations and has much to do with our continuing lack of unity today in North America.

First Communion morphed into First Confession as a familial and cultural rite of passage. New facilities built across the OCA, ACROD and the UOCUSA reflected a correct vision of culture and faith as the people's understanding of why and how blossomed. Service books were gradually brought into compliance with Orthodox norms.

Thousands though who came to Orthodoxy but who were discouraged and disgusted by the unwelcoming "embrace" of the naysayers gave up and returned to the Greek Catholic faith.

Thanks be to God for wise and patient leaders like Patriarch Athenagoras, Archbishop Iakovas and the Metropolia' s Metropolitan Leonty and others, including hard working priests (who had to learn and adapt at the same time they led) who had the wisdom to know that Rome wasn't built in a day and a teaching patience would bear fruit in future generations.

Leave these people be to the pastoral counsel of their God fearing priests and Bishops as they learn to know and love Orthodoxy. Stop being like BOTH the Latinizing Romans and the judgmental Orthodox who played the role of the Pharisees in my story. Give them a break.

Also, in Slavic, non Russian tradition floral adornment of churches, including altar areas, is a small t tradition through the Carpathian lands including Romanian, Rusyn, Lemko,Slovak and Ukrainian Christians - both Orthodox and Eastern Catholic. Likewise one will find ornate hand embroidered vestments and altar covers with both floral and geometric regional patterning in such communities as well.

Personally, too many Orthodox Catholic churches which adopt an occidental liturgy look Eastern in both look and feel. I understand that these parishes often have few resources, but the Western rite is in severe need of liturgical renewal and beautification.

I have a deep and profound love of icons, do understand that. I carry a small one portraying the events of Whitsunday (Pentecost) in my pocket every day without fail. However, the practice of iconography is foreign to the West, and therefore, I am not too sure as to the role icons can or should have in Western liturgies. What needs to be enriched and cultivated is the usage of traditional Western liturgical elements such as chant in all its forms, the organ, and hymns. Let the Western use churches celebrate what is part of their cultural patrimony. That means allowing statues, correct colour liturgical vestments (blue used liturgically in the West during Advent only, not on feasts of the Blessed Virgin like in the East), and stopping Byzantisations.

« Last Edit: March 28, 2014, 12:44:02 PM by Jules_Grant »

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"Those who fear the Lord do not disobey his words, and those who love him keep his ways."

Apparently "Western" equates with "post-reformation Roman Catholicism". Which is of course a fairly silly idea. Icons have always been part of Western christianity whereas wide use of statues are of more recent origin.

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But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.Leviticus 19:34

Apparently "Western" equates with "post-reformation Roman Catholicism". Which is of course a fairly silly idea. Icons have always been part of Western christianity whereas wide use of statues are of more recent origin.

It hasn't been for quite some time, and until I discovered Orthodox Catholicism, icons were foreign to me. Icons, to put it plain and simple, have no place in traditional Western liturgical worship, or at least have not for some time. Icons are very much Eastern, not Western. Maybe it's my liturgical taste, but icons and the West seem to be things that have no relationship to one another.

« Last Edit: March 28, 2014, 12:55:04 PM by Jules_Grant »

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"Those who fear the Lord do not disobey his words, and those who love him keep his ways."

You might be suprised if you made a pilgrimage to, say, Spain and Italy. Or frankly any other Southern European country.

There are two icons, one of the Theotokos and one of Christ, in Westminster Abbey in London. Icons are beautiful, indeed so, but if they are to be used in the Western churches, I would like to see them incorporated smartly into the design of the church, not placed on the choir screen so as to recreate an iconostasis. Anything of substance that can adore the sacraments with beauty should be explored, whether it be a mass setting by Schubert, stain glass, hymns, or a cantata by Bach.

On that note, is there an iconography tradition that is organically Western in nature?

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"Those who fear the Lord do not disobey his words, and those who love him keep his ways."

Oh, those are considered icons? There is a Western iconographic tradition!

I would think this stricter in appearance, but it seems to be of the type of design the Orthodox Catholic Church would prefer.

I don't know about the style of that icon in particular, but I've read that the Antiochian Archdiocese has deemed Romanescque icons to be the preferred style of Western Rite parishes. Do a Google search for "Romanesque icons" and you'll see quite a few examples, modern and ancient.

When in Rome two years ago, my brother was amazed at the number of pre-schism Roman basilicas and neighborhood churches with extant examples of first millenium iconography - where it was preserved as a tradition from prior to that of the eastern iconoclasts.

Commissioned in the ninth century, here is one 9th century apse mosaic commissioned by Pope Paschal I in the Church of Santa Maria in Domnica in Rome :

Don't forget that there are a lot of inter-faith marriages between Roman Catholics & Orthodox.

How does this affect Orthodox liturgical practice? More to the point, why should it affect Orthodox liturgical practice?

Well, I have heard some of the "Roman Catholic godparents" say that they are going to take their godchild to the Catholic Church for their First Confession and First Communion. And then we tell this RC Godparent that the child has just received Baptism, Chrismation, and First Holy Communion as an Orthodox Christian. And their response: "Well they should still participate in the First Communion Ceremony, like a coming of age ceremony."

Which has precisely no bearing on proper Orthodox liturgical practice, and neither should it. The honest ignorance of certain people should never trump what is right and proper.

What is "right and proper" has varied widely from time to time and from place to place. It doesn't make sense to absolutize current Byzantine practice as normative for all Orthodox. East and West have both changed a great deal over time, including pre-schism time.

As a student of art history, I assure everyone that the latin rite art and architecture from the years 300 AD to 1200 AD was consistently unified and similar, as far as the prototypes. The only way it which it has diversity was through localized variation which occured mostly because of the different tribes that had invaded and conquered the western roman empire. This means that "insular" or so-called barbaric , more primitive artistic expression existed with also the more refined late antique roman/hellenic influence, which never disappeared in Italy.

It lacked profound diversity. between 950 and 1200 statues became known, but for veneration purposes, it was rare to find very many in a single church until later. Athough after 1150 in the early stages of gothic/norman architecture the use of 3d statuary for decorative purposes came to be more common.

While I sympathise that iconography and images of the latin west from the earlier middle ages are often not known to the average person in the united states in anglican or roman catholic churches, they did in fact once exist more prominently .Yes the west and western iconography was always unique and always different than the east, but not in such a profound way, not in such a drastic way as perhaps it became in the later middle ages and present age. So yes, a distinct latin rite iconography that is ancient is worth reviving. It is easy to find examples from the past and it compliments byzantine traditions quite nicely, even if it is not always neatly canonical or perfectly according to councils such as trullo, it is historically what was used. All westerners owe it to themselves to have more familiarity if they are so priviledged with time or resources/.

"and for all who are Orthodox, and who hold the Catholic and Apostolic Faith, remember, O Lord, thy servants" - yet the post-conciliar RC hierarchy is tolerant of everyone and everything... except Catholic Tradition, for modernists are as salt with no taste, to be “thrown out and trampled under foot

It is easy to find examples from the past and it compliments byzantine traditions quite nicely, even if it is not always neatly canonical or perfectly according to councils such as trullo, it is historically what was used. All westerners owe it to themselves to have more familiarity if they are so priviledged with time or resources/.

As I said before, the presence of uncanonical imagery in pre-Trullo churches is a matter of history. Any "revival" must not include such imagery. Iconography is a matter of expressing proper doctrine. Period.

The latter seems very, very Latin. What's the background of the parish? Was it born as a WRO parish or did it convert from some other denomination?

It's a Spanish-language Cuban parish. This is patron saint feast day, so they process outside all around the neighborhood, with instruments and singing. It's a typical Latin parish, and these are their customs.

It's kind of odd to see clergy vested as Eastern Rite clergy in a Western Rite service! In one of the pictures by Nephi, a priest wears an epitrachelion, and a deacon and subdeacon are vested in the Eastern manner.

These are visiting clergy from the Miami area invited to attend the Parrish's patronal feast day. There was an outdoor procession, so they look like they were dressed appropriately

The "first communion" business on the second site is just wrong, wrong, wrong.

The caption on the photo says "First Confession and Communion", which, to me, doesn't necessarily imply "First Communion". If the WRO have the same practice as the rest of the Orthodox re: communing infants and children, perhaps this is just a way of bringing in as much of a type of popular, cultural rite of passage as possible?

There is no first Communion at this or any AWRV parish. I went to this parish for a year, so I know.

The latter seems very, very Latin. What's the background of the parish? Was it born as a WRO parish or did it convert from some other denomination?

It's a Spanish-language Cuban parish. This is patron saint feast day, so they process outside all around the neighborhood, with instruments and singing. It's a typical Latin parish, and these are their customs.

One of the few books I enjoyed reading last semester was on Hispanic spirituality/theology (with nice detail of Holy Week practices), so I think it's great seeing such a sight in a AWRV parish.

Well, compared to American Catholics, they have a very distinct religious culture that shows from their homes, to how they celebrate feast days, to their processions, Holy Week observances, etc. St. Juan Diego and his interactions with Our Lady of Guadalupe have a significant importance for Hispanic Catholic practice and theology, although I'm not sure how much this would carry over into the AWRV.

Well, St. James DID evangelize the Iberian peninsula and his relics are at Santiago de Compostella. This spirituality has its roots in Spain.

I fail to understand what this has to do with my question. Please elaborate.

Also, please note that I'm not criticizing the idea of Hispanic spirituality. I just don't understand it what it means.

I guess not. There has been Hispanic spirituality since apostolic times was my point. An apostle buried in Spain, for crying out loud. The things previously described are the direct descendants of that spirituality. So I guess I fail to understand what your "Hispanic spirituality?" means. I was pointing that it's been around since almost time that there was even a Church.

I fail to understand what this has to do with my question. Please elaborate.

Also, please note that I'm not criticizing the idea of Hispanic spirituality. I just don't understand it what it means.

I guess not. There has been Hispanic spirituality since apostolic times was my point. An apostle buried in Spain, for crying out loud. The things previously described are the direct descendants of that spirituality. So I guess I fail to understand what your "Hispanic spirituality?" means. I was pointing that it's been around since almost time that there was even a Church.

I think Alpo just wonders what is distinct enough about Hispanic spirituality to speak of it separately from other forms of spirituality. I.e., what makes "Hispanic spirituality" different from just "Catholic spirituality" or something along those lines.

I fail to understand what this has to do with my question. Please elaborate.

Also, please note that I'm not criticizing the idea of Hispanic spirituality. I just don't understand it what it means.

I guess not. There has been Hispanic spirituality since apostolic times was my point. An apostle buried in Spain, for crying out loud. The things previously described are the direct descendants of that spirituality. So I guess I fail to understand what your "Hispanic spirituality?" means. I was pointing that it's been around since almost time that there was even a Church.

I think Alpo just wonders what is distinct enough about Hispanic spirituality to speak of it separately from other forms of spirituality. I.e., what makes "Hispanic spirituality" different from just "Catholic spirituality" or something along those lines.

Hispanic spirituality is simply devout catholic spirituality that comes from a country that has always been Catholic.Catholics in the USA that speak english inevitably have more protestant influence today because the USA is still a rather anti-Catholic/anti-Orthodox protestant nation, as far as faith goes. This is especially true today, the further back you go the more the catholics were in their own ghettos or had less protestant influence in the USA.

One of the interesting things I've noticed is that the bulletins from the some of spanish masses sometimes have far superior private prayers on them than the english bulletins from the exact same church. Even though the spanish mass is in the new "spirit of vatican II" protestant influenced liturgical form, the sermons are often very good, more intense and expressive, like saint augustine. And despite mediocre guitar music, they occasionally carry on a few more stronger catholic traditions , such as "The Churching of Women". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Churching_of_women

Here is one of the prayers that i saved from a the spanish mass bulletin.This is exactly as it was, with this exact same picture printed in it.

(flawed translation from google: O Virgin Mary, Mother of God and Mother of sinners and also special protector of those who wear your Scapular sacred , so you magnified the Divine Majesty , escogiéndote for his true Mother , I beg you reach your beloved Son , forgiveness my sins , amendment of my life, the salvation of my soul , the remedy of my needs , the comfort of my afflictions and the special grace I ask in this Novena , if appropriate for your greater honor and glory and the good of my soul, and to me, Madam , to get me worth of your powerful intercession . Want to have the spirit of all the angels, holy and righteous in order to worthily praise and uniting my voice with its affection , I greet you a thousand times saying : Three Hail Marys ..

Blessed Virgin of Carmen , I wish that all without exception, draw near to your shade of your Holy Scapular and everyone is united to You My Mother , by the close ties of love and your beloved this badge.

Oh Beauty of Carmel ! Watch us prostrate before your sacred image reverent and grant us thy loving protection benign . I entrust the needs of our Holy Father the Pope and the Catholic Church , our Mother , as well as my nation and around the world, my own and those of my family and friends . Look with compassion so many poor sinners, heretics and schismatics , how offend your Divine Son and how many infidels moan in the darkness of paganism . We all love you and become , My Mother , as I want to love you now and for all eternity. Amen .)

This is a completely pre-vatican II style prayer, talking about "how many infidels moan in the darkness of paganism" and "Look with compassion so many poor sinners, heretics and schismatics" (you know what this means!) it is very orthodox and beautiful. This is Catholic spirituality at it's best. Most of the english prayers for the Virgin of Carmel that I have seen are mediocre and lack the depth of this one. For some reason the devotions that survive among Catholics in other countries weren't able to be altered as much as they were in the US or english speaking world. The hierarchy could tinker with the mass and largely succeeded making a mess of it, but they couldn't tinker with the private devotions as easily, Thank God.

« Last Edit: March 30, 2014, 07:02:23 PM by Christopher McAvoy »

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"and for all who are Orthodox, and who hold the Catholic and Apostolic Faith, remember, O Lord, thy servants" - yet the post-conciliar RC hierarchy is tolerant of everyone and everything... except Catholic Tradition, for modernists are as salt with no taste, to be “thrown out and trampled under foot

The icon on this document is the Yakhromskaya, or the very similar Yaroslavskaya, both exquisite examples of the Tenderness (Umileniye) type of icons of the Mother of God.

Unfortunately one of the loveliest of icon types has been tweaked in a way which debases it: the presence of the scapular in the Virgin's left hand, and her pointing to it, signifying that it is the way to salvation.

This is just wrong, wrong, wrong.

If the RCs want to have scapular devotions, fine. Just leave perfectly good icons alone out of respect for them, and not denigrate them by such "creative" additions which distort their theology.

If the RCs want to have scapular devotions, fine. Just leave perfectly good icons alone out of respect for them, and not denigrate them by such "creative" additions which distort their theology.

Wow! I've never seen anything like that in popular Latino culture in the US. This looks almost like a Greek icon.

What are 'scapular devotions'? I tried to look it up on wiki but I'm wondering what it all means (as usual). It looks like a club or group thing? Is there anything with which it could be compared in Orthodoxy?

What does the writing '...MITIS' mean? Looks like other writing on the other edge of her garment as well. I've never noticed that in Orthodox icons.

I think Alpo just wonders what is distinct enough about Hispanic spirituality to speak of it separately from other forms of spirituality. I.e., what makes "Hispanic spirituality" different from just "Catholic spirituality" or something along those lines.

Correct.

« Last Edit: March 31, 2014, 12:29:23 AM by Alpo »

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But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.Leviticus 19:34

It's kind of odd to see clergy vested as Eastern Rite clergy in a Western Rite service! In one of the pictures by Nephi, a priest wears an epitrachelion, and a deacon and subdeacon are vested in the Eastern manner.

The picture at the Shrine of Regla Western Rite Church was taken at the conclusion of a Byzantine liturgy on St John Chrysostom’s day.

Flowers have their roots (hehehe) in the Old Testament Temple. The flowers serve to remind us of the Garden of Eden and the glory that was lost. The walls in Solomon's temple were lined with carvings of palm trees and flowers.

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"God became man, so that men might become gods." -- St. Athanasius

"His was the word that spake it,He took the bread and brake it,And what is word doth make it,That I believe and take it." - Queen Elizabeth I

What does the writing '...MITIS' mean? Looks like other writing on the other edge of her garment as well. I've never noticed that in Orthodox icons.

Since the last two letters of the preceding word are ER I assume it says "Mater mitis" which is Latin for "Mother mild" or "Tender Mother," which are the first two words of the second line of the Flos Carmeli, a hymn used in the Carmelite Rite:

Mater mitis sed viri nescia Carmelitis esto propitia stella maris."Mother mild, but not knowing a man, be merciful to the Carmelites, O Star of the Sea."

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Woe is me, that I have read the commandments, and have become learned in the Scriptures,and have been instructed in Your glories, and yet I have become occupied in shameful things!

Statues are not traditionally to be used liturgically. Nothing wrong with them otherwise but IMO they shouldn't have any liturgical function.

Blue is used on Marian feast days, like this one.

That seems more like turquoise than blue. Not that there would be anything wrong with turquoise but that caught my attention. I haven't seen turquoise vestments before this.

pActually HH Ignatius Zakka Iwas of Blessed Memory had a turquoise or azure phayno with gold trim, in which he celebrated one of his final liturgical engagememts in Germany. Google him and a picture of it will turn up. However it was of a much richer and more exquisite design than the turquoise vestment depicted in this photo set, having been made in the sumptuous style of West Syriav vestments from the tailors of the Malabar Coast. In contrast this vestment looks a bit cheap. There is an inactive blog called Bad Vestments which specialized in chronicling this; one Byzantine Rite priest got included with a dreadful Santa Claus or Frosty the Snowman phelonion.