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Not sure if troll thread, or serious.... This is LoTRO, unlike WoW, we have a LORE. Tolkien had no GUNS in his BOOKS, so, due to LORE, there are no GUNS in LOTRO. Glorgnorbor

Having read The Silmarillion, The Hobbit, The Lord Of The Rings, Unfinished Tales and parts of the History Of Middle Earth I am struggling to find any reference to Rune-Keepers or Riding Goats, or Wardens, Pumpkin Masks, Pirate Festivals, etc.

Perhaps you could point me to the LORE that deals with those aspects of the game.

Thanks.

For the record I think guns is a big no-no, for rather obvious reasons.

But an appeal to "LORE" is not sufficient reason in and of itself given how far Turbine/WB have deviated from LORE so far.

Having read The Silmarillion, The Hobbit, The Lord Of The Rings, Unfinished Tales and parts of the History Of Middle Earth I am struggling to find any reference to Rune-Keepers or Riding Goats, or Wardens, Pumpkin Masks, Pirate Festivals, etc.

Perhaps you could point me to the LORE that deals with those aspects of the game.

Thanks.

For the record I think guns is a big no-no, for rather obvious reasons.

But an appeal to "LORE" is not sufficient reason in and of itself given how far Turbine/WB have deviated from LORE so far.

All The Best

rune keepers- i agree, but turbine had to add some class. adding another warrior or archer would be boring, so they added another magic class, things which MMOs pretty much require. it's not that bad like guns.
goats, wardens, pumpkin masks, pirate- it's not that impossible; goats can be tamed and maby ridden on if they are big enough, it's not that anti lore. wardens are just javeling throwing soliders, what's the problem? pumnkin masks, again, isn't something bad. we got to have festivals, also for holidays, it's like that in all online games. pirate is pretty anti lore, but not as bad as guns. it's silly, but ok. if this things aren't spesificly written in the books, it doesn't mean that they don't exist.

If its true that the game has black powder than why don't we have guns like WoW RoM?

Black powder was discovered in 9th century China. Fireworks were invented soon after, but it took almost 400 years for the Chinese to develop the first, primitive firearms.

The Lord of the Rings pulls from many periods in history, with each "nation" operating at a different technological level. Black powder essentially serves as a "future technology", introduced by one mad wizard to tip the balance in his own favor. As a general rule of siege warfare, the attacker must outnumber the defender ten to one to achieve victory. Castles and similar fortifications thus afford great strategic advantage to the holder. If you add up the numbers, orcs lack such a massive numerical advantage at Helm's Deep. Saruman cheats--uses black powder--to tip the scales to his advantage.

In summation, the author uses gunpowder as a surprise element, not a technology in general use. Adding firearms and related warfare would dramatically change the historical setting and undermine the author's purpose.

Lore discussions are alot like law discussions. You have the letter and you have the spirit. No one except for Tolkien himself (and even then not all the time) was able to match the letter of the lore. Every iteration, from LotRO to Jackson to Bakshi have all added their own touches to what Tolkien wrote. You pretty much have to, because it is impossible to fully realize a massive book to any other medium going word for word.

In the spirit of the lore, I think Turbine has done a good job. Rune Keepers and Lore Masters are not specifically mentioned in Tolkien, but they came about because people wanted a "wizard" class. Now as we know there were five wizards in Middle Earth. Turbine knew people wanted magic and gave them a "lesser magic" that could sell the product without destroying the lore. Goats were the same thing. You needed a mount in Moria, but Tolkien specifically says that horses won't enter the mine. It took me quite a while to wrap my head around goats... in fact, I still choose to run in Moria, but it is within the realm of possibility. After all people have historically ridden everything from oxen to elephants; I don't see why some form of primordial goat couldn't have been domesticated in the same way. Pumpkin masks? There were much stranger festivals in our real Middle Ages that could have been added in. Pirates? A stretch, but for a couple days a year... could be much worse.

All this, however, is beside the point. Guns are not in the spirit of the lore. They never have been and never will be, not just in LotRO, but in anything that had anything to do with Tolkien.

While I agree that guns in Middle Earth just don't seem to fit, there is much more precedence for a primitive gun being used by a person in Middle Earth than something like dwarves running around shooting Sith lighting out of their fingers.

There is a clear and established precedent for black powder being used as a propellant in Middle Earth. (Fireworks)

In real history, primitive firearms were used much earlier than a lot of people usually realize. There is some evidence showing the Chinese may have been using some type of "hand cannon" in the 1100s or before. It is thought some Mongols may have been armed with primitive chinese firearms and black powder bombs "grenades" in the 1240s. There is documentation from the 14th century of Muslims using some sort of hand held cannon in battle, and there have been some big cannons found from the 14th century as well.

No doubt there would have been people in Middle Earth experimenting with the chemicals and elements found in the ground. We know Saruman did and came up with some sort of Blasting Powder. Whether or not Tolkien intended it to be black powder or not, I don't think anyone knows but the similarities are enough.

Something similar would have been used for Gandalf's fireworks. We know ME to be a "low magic" type of place. Nothing to overt. Gandalf and Saruman seemed to me to be much more akin to an alchemist than a wizard in many respects, when comparing to "Wizards" from other story universes.

History shows us that the Chinese and others were relatively (in the grand scheme of things) quick to go from discovery of black powder, to being able to fire a projectile using it as a propellant. One would think the lore masters of Middle Earth would come to the same conclusions and possibilities.

Helm's Deep Devamp killed my long time toons. Currently bouncing around between post-HD newbie alts (a warden and champ) and other games. Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu!http://cruciblegaming.com

It's also worth noting that the only person that used something that could be construed as black powder for the purpose of weaponry was evil. The Third Age alone was over three thousand years long. In our history that would be going from Homeric combat to nuclear weapons and everything in between. Tolkien, however, mentions the same arms and armor from the First Age battles of the Silmarillion all the way to the end of his writings. Glamdring was around six and a half thousand years old when Gandalf found it.

Simple answer: black powder / blasting powder is still too new or exotic of a development to have advanced to the point where personal firearms are possible. The explosive device the orcs used was little more than a crude bomb. They only had one of those devices, so the blasting powder was obviously not something available in any large quantity to them.

Cannons have not been developed yet in Middle-earth, and that’s a necessary step between black powder and personal firearms. First, you make a device that goes boom. Then you make a device to channel the boom in a specific direction. Finally, you make the boom-stick small enough to carry around.

I would not find it unreasonable to think that some sort of primitive personal firearm like a musket or blunderbuss would be developed sometime during the Fourth Age, however.

Ya but... saruman did have black powder and the game makes up all sorts of "top of the head" stuff like Skorgrim and the Dourhands, The brigands, characters, Most factions such as the lossoth of Forochel and the Eglain, Monsters/bosses, Cities, events, even most of the epics are made all up! There are more than even I can come up with! How is making a new class/weapon actually based on Sarumans black powder when lots of stuff is completely Turbines idea copyright?

You are forgetting, that Turbine has to get an "ok" for their interpretation of the lore. And it is a huge difference between filling a not so exactly written part of middleearth with life and inventing a completely new technic which would change everything.

Only saruman is using this misterious powder - and just for an explosion. Even in the real world there where hundreds of years between inventing blackpowder and the first appearance of the hand cannon.

Yes an no. I just looked it up in my (german) book - so excuse me for a rough translation.

The book is lacking Sarumans part - Wormtongue is thrown out of town, Gandaly leaves and the others head to Helms Deep - When battle was rising suddenly the wall breaks and they call it "Sarumans devilry" or "the fire of orthanc" - the source is not revealed. No running Uruk with a torch and no giant bomb. The whole blackpowder is an interpretation for the sake of the movie (like the helping elves)

While I agree that guns in Middle Earth just don't seem to fit, there is much more precedence for a primitive gun being used by a person in Middle Earth than something like dwarves running around shooting Sith lighting out of their fingers.

No, in point of fact there's precedent for neither.

There is a clear and established precedent for black powder being used as a propellant in Middle Earth. (Fireworks)

Yes, by Gandalf. But he's a Wizard, you know? Knows lots of clever stuff. That doesn't mean it's going to be common knowledge even among loremasters. (No more than it was in Europe in Roger Bacon's time).

In real history, primitive firearms were used much earlier than a lot of people usually realize. There is some evidence showing the Chinese may have been using some type of "hand cannon" in the 1100s or before. It is thought some Mongols may have been armed with primitive chinese firearms and black powder bombs "grenades" in the 1240s. There is documentation from the 14th century of Muslims using some sort of hand held cannon in battle, and there have been some big cannons found from the 14th century as well.

Middle-earth's got a persistent 'Dark Ages' Western European ambience - hence, for example, the lack of crossbows in the books - and that means no firearms, either. Out of context. Too early.

No doubt there would have been people in Middle Earth experimenting with the chemicals and elements found in the ground. We know Saruman did and came up with some sort of Blasting Powder. Whether or not Tolkien intended it to be black powder or not, I don't think anyone knows but the similarities are enough.

Saruman isn't 'people', he's another Wizard, a Maia of Aulë and that's why he has a thing for technology (just as Sauron does - he used to be one of Aulë's folk, too). And as I said earlier, the use of such technologies in war is portrayed as something evil which is why it's firmly limited to the bad guys. So plot-wise there is no real scope for any of the good guys to be weaponising it.

Even as they spoke there came a blare of trumpets. Then there was a crash and a flash of flame and smoke. The waters of the Deeping-stream poured out hissing and foaming: they were choked no longer, a gaping hole was blasted in the wall. A host of dark shapes poured in.

'Devilry of Saruman!' cried Aragorn. 'They have crept in the culvert again, while we talked, and they have lit the fire of Orthanc beneath our feet. '

And then later:

'But the Orcs have brought a devilry from Orthanc,' said Aragorn. 'They have a blasting fire, and with it they took the Wall.'

But as others have pointed out: The only references to explosives in canon seem to align them with the Wizards - either they are used by Saruman for rudimentary explosives, or in Gandalf's fireworks. In both cases, there might well be a supernatural element to it. And note the use of "devilry" in both passages; it seems unlikely that King Elessar is going to direct the Gondorian Academy of Sciences to recreate this invention.

And while LOTRO does indeed contain elements that aren't in the books (although the fact that OP cites both Sharkey and the Lossoth as examples makes me suspect someone hasn't read the books), at least some of which people object to, introducing firearms would make the existing canon illogical. As someone else said, before there were muskets, there would have had to be cannon. Muskets sound antiquated from today's point of view, but they rely on previous technological developments; they weren't invented just out of the blue.

And if there were cannons in Middle-earth, they would be used in warfare. Sauron wouldn't need Grond, as any fortress - including Helm's Deep, Minas Tirith, and possibly even Isengard could be taken easily. Even more blatantly, the existing types of warfare just would not work as described. The Riders of Rohan could be stopped by any other power that could build or buy movable cannon in sufficient numbers to stop their charges, which means that their entire culture would not make sense. None of the battles described in quite a lot of detail in the books could have taken place the way it's described.

All in all, firearms just seem out of place in LOTR. I've seen a mixture of pre- and post-gun technologies in other fantasy environments, but those often tend to have a "steampunk-like" environment. One of the major themes of LOTR is that machinery of a higher complexity is seen only in the way it's misused by antagonists. Having elves run around with guns would just feel wrong.

so a musketeer is a great idea and isn't to hard to fit in Tolkien lore.

It's not hard, it's impossible.

Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"Continuing the never ending battle to keep Lobelia Sackville-Baggins in check

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No black powder, really? Well then, let me show you something!

Quest: Lobelia's fireworks

Direct quote from Hyacinth Took after pick up the quest from lobelia and go to her...

"If Lobelia really wants fireworks for her party, there will be a lot of purchases she has to make. There's charcoal, saltpetre, brimstone, and iron fillings to buy, among other things. So you go back to Lobelia and make sure she's willing to pay for all this."

Note that brimstone is now refered to as sulfur and potassium nitrate is also called saltpeter.

Its also possible that black powder was also used in helms deep now that we know it is used in fireworks. All official sources I find don't really say whether it was black powder or magic anyway.

Let us never forget the north downs quest line with Trotters Task, Defending the Bridge, Black fire, and Half Orc Schemer.

Quotes (all quests)

"The other night I was keeping watch on this side of Cirith Núr, and I saw dark figures carrying a pair of crates out of Nan Wathren.
'I loosed a fire-arrow at them, to signal the town-guard. The arrow struck one crate, and those carrying it dropped it and ran. Soon after, there was a sound like thunder and a ball of fire! The others hastily retreated carrying the other crate."

"I'm sure the Orcs have plenty more Black-fire. I'm going to ask you to find and destroy it all. That means you will have to go deep into Nan Wathren."

"It seems that open flame causes this foul powder to explode, so it would be wise to use fire to destroy the crates."

Explodes with flame and black in color, sounds suspiciously like black powder to me!

I guess that really proves my theory, doesn't it?

On top of that, its not just wizards who make it!

Quote (half Orc Schemer)

'The more I think of it, the more convinced I am that this Lugbas the half-orcs spoke of is behind the Black-fire. He's probably a half-orc himself and leads the ones you slew before.

So non-magic people can make "black fire" too? Well then its not really that magic now is it?

Ok, now I'm pretty sure its black powder, don't you think?

I also heard someone say that you need cannons before firearms. Well the thing is I don't think lotro is out there to make an accurate depiction of historical events. It wants to blow your socks off! So I think Turbine would skip the cannons to the guns. Even if it were different, they probably just make cannons first then guns, right? Either way theres guns in the end.

The thing for you guys is you all thing it would hurt the lore aspect of the game, and I understand. I assure you that if lotro would be to make weapons they would find a way to present them in a lotro way. Turbine isn't stupid enough to ruin the game with something totally out of place. That also may help to slip them under the license!

Like I said before about the licence, primitive firearms aren't as bad as pirates and Skorgrim (I know what you all said about him. But remember how you said he could have been evil due to gold. Well he wasn't even after gold! Also he was evil before the library collapse so it wasn't the ghost possession either, HA!) Dwarves can't be evil so that indicates the boundaries are bigger than you expect. The book didn't even say Dourhand so I guess lotro shouldn't have to much trouble with the primitive guns.

May I remind you that I'm not asking for AK-47s or M16s. I mean the old flintlocks that you see in pirate and musketeer movies! (there already pirates in lotro, so It shouldn't be too improbable to have guns)

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I disagree, guns would make the game more interesting, another thing to spice up the game eh. Give it some elvish engraving and an elegant brass plate job. finally throw in some glowing runes and there ya go. It will fit right into the game setting!

Having read The Silmarillion, The Hobbit, The Lord Of The Rings, Unfinished Tales and parts of the History Of Middle Earth I am struggling to find any reference to Rune-Keepers or Riding Goats, or Wardens, Pumpkin Masks, Pirate Festivals, etc.

Perhaps you could point me to the LORE that deals with those aspects of the game.

Thanks.

For the record I think guns is a big no-no, for rather obvious reasons.

But an appeal to "LORE" is not sufficient reason in and of itself given how far Turbine/WB have deviated from LORE so far.

All The Best

The Rune keeper was a little to far from lore for me...but what ever...

but the pumpkin festival mask? a random hobbit could have made a mask shop and sold fun masks for hobbit children... the warden is a guy with a shield and weapon and throws javelins...that`s VERY similar to the riders of Rohan actually

A goat is a bit weird...as I have NEVER heard of a giant goat but I never read the simirlian and I don`t even know how it`s spelled...lol

and the pirate festival? there WERE pirates in middle earth known as the Back Corsairs and they were GOING to attack minas tirith but the king of the dead showed up.

So the only lore breaking thing that I worry about are the Rune Keepers

as for what this post is about with guns? if they added that I would stop playing as it would be WAY beyond breaking lore for me...

WOW, seriously?

Wow, I'm not sure, I hate playing P2P games and I used to play and I had issues. I was so addicted I pouted every time i was forced off by my parents ( I was 9 at the time, this was in 2007 before the 3rd expansion. I have no Idea about the lore so...) Not into it. Besides the Pandaria thing seems weird. I like LOTRO but a garrison of dwarven riflemen or a knightly musketeer like mercenary faction would be nice in this game.

Wow, I'm not sure, I hate playing P2P games and I used to play and I had issues. I was so addicted I pouted every time i was forced off by my parents ( I was 9 at the time, this was in 2007 before the 3rd expansion. I have no Idea about the lore so...) Not into it. Besides the Pandaria thing seems weird. I like LOTRO but a garrison of dwarven riflemen or a knightly musketeer like mercenary faction would be nice in this game.

Look guns will never be added to the game. Skorgrim isn't lore breaking since tolkien never said dwarves can't be evil he said they can't be corrupted. The dourhands were mentioned in The Hobbit when they were entering the misty Mountains. Also just, because it wasn't mentioned in the book doesn't mean it didn't happen or exist. By your past attempts at saying the game broke lore by the lossoth or sharkey my bet is you have never read the books, or seen the movies for that matter. Good Day sir.

Guns just don't fit in the spirit of the game, just as flying mounts don't.

Let's forget lore, let's talk about gameplay. Can you imagine how everyone would accuse Turbine of being so desperate that they actually introduced guns to make the game more like WoW? That just seems like negative publicity to me.

The more I think of this, the more I disagree with it.

Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"Continuing the never ending battle to keep Lobelia Sackville-Baggins in check