M.Steiner wrote:Discord is a free chat app designed by gamers, for gamers.

It's very easy to join & use. Absolutely no set-up guide necessary.

Connect via your browser, the desktop client (PC & Mac with Linux to come) or even the free phone app (for both iOS & Android) to use whilst you're out & about or at work.

Instantly invite someone to our channel via a simple and short link.

Supports multiple channels for both text & voice chat, all connected to the same server window and only a mouse click away from each other.

In-game customizable overlay for voice chat.

Link embedding - Watch a YouTube video, view a screenshot or read a tweet that someone has linked in the channel without even leaving the chat window. You can even drag & drops screenshots direct from your PC to share in chat!

Receive a notification on your phone if someone (@) mentions you in chat or sends you a PM.

Full server-side chatlog which displays as you enter the channel, even for when you've not been online yourself.

See whether someone is online, offline, afk, playing a game or even streaming.

Twitch sub integration.

100% free.

Lots of other cool features too & more to come as well!

If you'd like to join us on Discord you can reach us by simply clicking this link!

Note: If you are wanting to give someone a link to our channel, please use shatteredstar.org/discord. This link has been set-up as a redirect (thanks, Anny) and will send people straight to our channel too, just with a URL that is easy to remember and convenient to pass out to people. You can swap .org for .com & .net too if you prefer to use those

The Discord widget can also be found on our site here too, via Community > Join us in Discord in the nav above.

I've created both a general & Star Citizen room on our channel (for both text & voice) and set a members role up as well which I'll assign to you all as you come across to try it, that way you can ban/kick/delete messages etc.

If there's any other channels you guys want making and think will be needed, just ask

First impressions - This does everything IRC does plus more. It combines voice, there's multiple easy ways to connect & invite to it and it's piss easy to use. I've been using IRC for over a decade like a lot of people here but at this moment? I see no reason for us to keep using it when we have this as a modern alternative. We'll see how it goes though, I expect it'll take a little while to get everyone moved across and trying it

[Edit]Here's what it looks like:

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If you don't like the text chat display (similar look to twitter) you can change it so it's like IRC. Can also change the theme from dark (as pictured) to light, if you prefer.

"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"Nothing beside remains. Round the decayOf that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,The lone and level sands stretch far away.

Not sure if you saw what I said in IRC, Anny, as you left the channel as I was speaking to you but to respond to your FB comment:

FBreply.jpg (80.38 KiB) Viewed 34840 times

18:23 @STR-MS • Anny, to your facebook question ("Why would we replace IRC? Works fine...")18:23 @STR-MS • viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8287 That's one reason.18:24 @STR-MS • IRC is <censored> old and people have to jump through hoops and follow a guide to figure out how to even join it. Discord is easy to use, modern and does everything IRC does but more.18:24 @STR-MS • Why would we replace IRC with Discord? - Why wouldn't we 18:24 @STR-MS • Come and try it18:25 @STR-MS › slaps STR-Anubis around a bit with a large trout18:26 • STR-Anubis has quit IRC

Not saying Discord IS now our replacement for IRC (who am I to say that?). Just asking us to trial it as a group and see how it works for us is all

Here's a pic with the compact (IRC like) chat display:

discord2.jpg (180.79 KiB) Viewed 34829 times

and the mobile app:

iOSapp.PNG (122.78 KiB) Viewed 34805 times

"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"Nothing beside remains. Round the decayOf that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,The lone and level sands stretch far away.

Sorry sorry, I was rushing out for Christmas Mass and family stuff earlier so didn't have time to read, let alone to reply, to anything in the channel (the idea of an Android app would actually be moderately useful for me in that regard).

I'll give it a look more tomorrow or Saturday as I get time. I'm far from convinced, but I don't like change much and am stubborn. So yeah, we'll see.

"Perhaps this is what I have always wished for since that day. The loss and destruction of all. That's right, one must destroy before creating. In that case, if my conscience becomes a hindrance to me, then I will simply erase it. I have no other choice but to move forward....therefore!" - Lelouch vi Britannia/Zero, Code Geass: Hangyaku no Lelouch

Anubis wrote:I'm far from convinced, but I don't like change much and am stubborn. So yeah, we'll see.

Yeah, try and put that aside (that you're stubborn & don't like change, as you say). Discord is superior in pretty much every way, there's no two ways about it really. Think of it from a web developing perspective and how much our sites have changed over the same years and how you've specifically gone back and rewrote/updated stuff before. IRC might work fine for some of us but it is dated too. It can be hard for some people to join (and is a barrier, really), is much more complicated to use & set up, has netsplits/disconnections left right & center sometimes, doesn't support voice, chat embeds for links/vids/pics etc etc. IRC doesn't really offer anything over Discord as a reason to us it over the other.

Voice chat is a mouse click away in Discord for those who want to use it. Without them having to launch & connect to a different client for it and they can still be in the text channel at the same time as well. You can easily share links out to other people for them to join easily, and at the click of a button and with no guides to follow. Hell, we've already had people in Discord who don't come on IRC

I wasn't even at my PC the other evening and I was still able to chat away on there. - Through experimentation it seems if you minimize and/or lock your phone it'll put you offline to others and you won't always see #general messages since you did that, to then reconnect you when you open it again, but if you open the app on your phone and just leave it on your screen it won't do that. The in-game overlay is coming soon (so you can see chat whilst you're playing your games if you want to) but I've also been using my phone as a second screen for that in the meantime. - Playing a game fullscreen on my monitor with my iPhone propped up in front of me with real-time chat from the STR Discord channel. It's fantastic.

[Edit 1]Lirik is using Discord for his Sub Hotline tonight btw, though you need to be a subscriber of his to get access.

There's a pre-made HTML widget for Discord which users can add to their sites too, which we could probably replace the IRC web Java with. I can give you the code for that if we want to use it.

Right now, the IRC Java thing is on /chat so rather than linking that to the Discord invite and then possibly having another page for the Discord widget, it might be easier for you to stick the widget on /chat and then have /discord link to our Discord channel instead. Just a thought but up to you. Whatever you think is easiest/quickest

As I said on IRC last night, I'm going to stop coming on IRC and just use Discord for now. We can't properly trial the latter if we're still going onto #STR IRC every day and having to spread our chat across two different channels & repeating shit we've said in one channel to the other for those who haven't come across yet. That's just silly. I'll still pop on IRC to see if there's anyone hanging about on there who hasn't been told of Discord yet (and has somehow managed to miss the topic message I left for them) but I don't plan to use IRC for chatting except as a backup. Same with BD.

I think most of our regulars have already made the move now bar a couple people which is good, and we're already seeing faces on Discord who we don't on IRC - this alone is a huge bonus imo. IRC isn't going anywhere so if, for whatever reason, we decided we'd rather go back to IRC (God Forbid), we could. I don't see why we ever would given how superior Discord is but ya never know.

Discord memberlist so far:

Anubis

Avapoppington

BlackDove

Chaos

Isileth

Kondratev

M.Steiner

NF

Ozone

QuantumDelta

Rah

Slacker

Whizbang

Winbrian

Zephir

If you're not on that list (which I'll keep up-to-date for a while), come over & try it with us. Just click here.

"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"Nothing beside remains. Round the decayOf that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,The lone and level sands stretch far away.

So, some of us have been using Discord for around a week now. How's everyone finding it? Does anyone legitimately believe that IRC offers enough (or any) pros over Discord and thus be reason enough for us to move back and not consider Discord our new home for chat?

Pros for me:- Easy to join, easy to set-up, easy to use and with a great, clean & modern UI. Very intuitive, you don't need to follow a guide for any of it.- In just 7 days we've already seen people in Discord who don't/can't use IRC and this alone is a huge bonus imo. My brother has said to me before that if I hadn't pre-setup IRC for him on his computer he wouldn't have bothered with it as it was too much of a hassle. I'll note too that even after a decade+ of using IRC I still have to consult a guide to do stuff sometimes.- Multiple channels within the server, all can have their own permissions. X game taking up a bit too much chat in #general? Can have its own text channel if needed. Ever need an out of game "officer only" chat for a particular game we're playing? Perfectly possible. A channel for STR news or announcements? Same.- Supports channels for both text chat & voice so we don't need to be spread across two different clients. Everything we need all under one roof. - Great sound quality, ability to mute, individually lower mics etc. You can be typing in #general whilst speaking in the Star Citizen voice channel, all from the same window. - Not a fan of voice chat? That's fine. You don't even have to touch those channels if you don't want, but they're only a mouse click away if you do.- Able to post videos, screenshots and links within the chat window which get embedded with a preview so you can see what you're clicking.- The ability to instantly invite people to our server at the click of a button and they can be in there within seconds if they're connecting through their browser. - If we could tie our invite URL to shatteredstar.org/discord or /chat we'd have a custom invite link which is easy to remember & pass out too. Can use this ingame, on social media, anywhere we like really.- Multiplatform support. You can connect quickly via your browser (and not install a thing), via the Discord client (for PC, Mac, and Linux is coming too) or even the phone app (for both iOS & Android). All free. All quick & easy to use. Out & about somewhere and fancy lurking in chat or popping in to say hi? - piece of piss. I've already been on Discord several times whilst I haven't been at my PC or my PC has been turned off. Sooo handy. I was even chatting from bed the other night lol. The app is great too.- If you have the app on your phone and someone @'s you or sends you a PM, you'll get a notification if you have them enabled for it.- Playing a game fullscreen but want to see chat as well? Just install the free app on your phone and use it as a second screen. I've been doing this all week! It's great!- Your IP address is protected so every bugger on the server can't see it.- Full chat history, not just from your previous visit. Logging on to your PC during the middle of a conversation? No problem. You'll automatically can see what has been said in the room just before you joined. Want to leave someone a message for when they next log on? Sure.- No frequent connection issues/netsplits like IRC and if your server does happen to go offline, you're automatically switched to a new one with minimal downtime.- Integrates with Twitch & YouTube, and you'll soon be able to link your Twitter, Facebook or Battle.net accounts to your Discord profile too.- Shows who's online, who's idle & who's offline, all with a little custom avatar. You can also allow it to show that you're currently playing a game.- The channel won't decide to de-register you and remove your channel permissions if you don't happen to log in for a while. Unlike IRC.+ Other features to come like the in-game overlays, bots which can post content from Twitter etc & lots more.

I've probably missed some stuff but I think we'd be mad to go back to IRC Everyone else as impressed as I have been? I love it.

"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"Nothing beside remains. Round the decayOf that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,The lone and level sands stretch far away.

I do not like how this has been handled one bit. By far it feels like an attempt to force people somewhere else, and the continuous drive by comments in the IRC channel only serve to reinforce this image.

Thunderbird wrote:I do not like how this has been handled one bit. By far it feels like an attempt to force people somewhere else, and the continuous drive by comments in the IRC channel only serve to reinforce this image.

Sorry if it has come across that way. If we're trialling this as a replacement for IRC then wouldn't it be better that all of us are actually trying it? So we can all share our thoughts, pros & cons etc in comparison to IRC? Rather than some of us trying it (I say some of us, the majority of us are now) whilst a few others stay behind on IRC on their lonesome? Didn't make sense (or seem fair) to me is all

[Edit]I've kept dropping by IRC like I said I would too but just to see if there was anyone hanging about on there who may not have read about the Discord trial and missed the channel message too (it happens). I did the same when we moved from #SSX to #STR. Coming across to IRC and seeing both you and Anny in there (who are our only IRC regulars yet to step foot in Discord) whilst there's a room full of us on Discord made me feel a little sad, and my drive by comments were just my attempt to encourage you both to come and join us is all. Sorry if it came across as forceful but would it have been nicer of me just to not say anything and ignore the fact that everyone else is on Discord but you two?. Just wanted to include you both and not leave people behind whilst we're testing.

"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"Nothing beside remains. Round the decayOf that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,The lone and level sands stretch far away.

Apologies but with Christmas I've been somewhat out of the loop on these discussions so I've been trying to catch up..

It's my understanding that we're definitely in a trial mode here - dipping our toes, so to speak - to see if another chat platform can bring something better to the table than IRC. From what I have seen Discord has gone down reasonably well.

Personally I can see the benefits Discord brings to the table. It's quite slick, has some nifty features for sharing images, links and video and the voice chat negates the need for maintaining a Teamspeak server.

With that all said IRC is a tried and tested platform that we've used the entirety of the life of SSX and even SSC. I also appreciate that for those who frequent other IRC chat rooms the thought of having two chat clients open simultaneously is going to be a pain in the backside.

(Interestingly though the Devs of Discord have suggested that once the APIs are released integration with IRC clients will be possible so this might be a way for us to please both sides.)

On Discord itself, its perfectly fine. I cant say I ever had a problem with IRC, it was no harder to connect to than this is, I prefer the cleaner layout of IRC but discord clearly has advantages with handling images and video, the fact it also keeps the chat history is probably the best feature it has.

At the end of the day I am perfectly happy with either one, they both work just fine.

Now onto the crappy side of things. We as a group really need to start discussing things before they are done. Looking back there have been a few occasions in our recent history this has happened and it always causes splits in the group. This was not a trial, a few people went ahead and did it and then put the rest of the group in a situation where they had to follow or get left behind. Even as I type this now there are comments being posted on discord where people are saying they have already made up their mind and wont be connecting to irc anymore. And even more than that there were comments posted in IRC before this thread was even started with certain members setting deadlines saying that after 1 week they would stop using IRC. It is quite clear that this has been pushed by a few people well before getting the group as a whole to look into it.

And I want to take this moment to be clear. I believe had this been done properly and a discussion been had beforehand the group would have backed switching over to discord by a big margin, possibly 90%+. Its basically the same as IRC but more modern. This isnt a post because im unhappy about the change because as I said above, either one does the job perfectly well as far as I can see, discord adds a lot of features I most likely wont use but it still seems to do the core jobs well.

But once again we have caused more problems than there ever should have been because of how this was handled. It seems recently rather than working together as a group we have individual members making decisions and then halfway through implementing them turning round and telling everyone else that this is the way things are now.

So to summarise, yeah discord is fine but lets try to discuss things first as a group in the future.

Reading of Ozone's struggle with IRC was what prompted me to set the Discord channel up when I did as he's not the first, and he'd tried the guide and he'd tried the java thing. It shouldn't be so difficult for someone to come & chat with us. Discord was something I'd already been considering putting forward as an idea for the group (and SL33PY has previously put forward other suggestions in the past too as an alternative to IRC) but I figured actions speak louder than words and now was as good a time as any.

IRC wasn't going anywhere but I was hoping we could get everyone to come across to Discord and try it as a group so we could hopefully all come to an agreement as to whether we could move to Discord and drop IRC, or just stay with IRC, and the only way such a decision could be made was if people physically came across and tried it for themselves. When I put the thread up I'd never used it before either. All but Anny & Tbird have of our regular IRC users and as I've said before, Discord has already removed the barriers of IRC for other people we've already seen in Discord who we wouldn't have seen on IRC otherwise.

IRC might be fine for those of us who have used it for a decade or more and idle in there most days of the week but for other people it's a hassle. It's hard to set up, complicated to use and it's <censored> old. If you're building a site or something don't you want it to be welcoming, easy to navigate and hassle free? Something which isn't going to give your guests a headache before they've even really got in? IRC is anything but. If you've just met someone ingame, on social media, in a stream or whatever and you want to invite them to chat on IRC, just how easy is that for someone who isn't familiar with it compared to passing them an instant invite to our Discord channel which they can simply open in a browser tab? So many steps they have to go through and the end result is simply not up to Discord's standards.

Discord offers everything we have with IRC but more, better & all of it is so much easier. To me it's a no brainer and I stopped "testing" days ago as it's clear as day to see. That's not my call to make though so I've been trying to encourage everyone to come across rather than leaving people behind on IRC whilst everyone else was over on Discord. That way everyone could see and judge for themselves, and share their thoughts here. Then to decide which we, as a group, stuck with. Hard to do when some people are still going on IRC each day and never stepping foot in Discord

So, I think the best course of action is probably;

If you want to stay back on IRC? - Fine.Want to move over to Discord too? - Great.Want to have 2 clients running & use both? - Sure, okay I guess..

Neither channel is going anywhere so you guys decide which you wanna use. All I'd suggest is if you're leaning towards staying on IRC but haven't been on Discord yet (or have only been on there for 5 minutes), please give it a chance. Unless you're living on another planet you will (hopefully) see all the benefits it has for us and hopefully we will all naturally adpot it as our new main in which case. Time will tell I guess...

Me? Discord offers too much over IRC both in features, usability and convenience to seriously consider going back to IRC over it. I'd like to hope that other people will see that too so we don't end up with a mixture of members across 2 different services, and I honestly think we'd be stupid to choose IRC over this. Having people split up is what I wanted to avoid but if it ends up that we do, maybe I'll one day end up using both but for now - Discord is where I'll be & Discord is where I will link people to as it's soooo much <censored> easier both for me, and for them

Request though: If we're going to have people on both IRC & Discord rather than 1 or the other, can we please have some Discord links on the main site alongside IRC too please. Would also be preferable to link this to a STR address like shatteredstar.org/discord

"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"Nothing beside remains. Round the decayOf that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,The lone and level sands stretch far away.

Well I wasn't going to post any of this up for fear of any argument it would cause, but it seems this has already made its way out into the open whilst I've been out tonight.

I feel Tbird and Isi have detailed very well my feelings on this matter. Namely that this has been handled very badly, caused resentment amongst more than a couple of us, and is not the way we should be handling business. The issue has come up a couple of times in IRC since this all started, and I feel my feelings are perhaps best described in what I've already written there:

Sunday wrote:[23:04] <STR-Anubis> I guess I'm talking to myself now but meh, I feel like saying it. I'm not really inclined to go over because of the way this is being managed and done. "Testing" doesn't include abandoning old platforms completely during the process, it's very clear BD and MS have made the decision already. [23:05] <STR-Anubis> Likewise, the "if you don't come do it you won't see us anymore since we're not coming back here" leaves a bad and insulting taste in my mouth. As have the pointed and disparaging comments every time I've looked back in here, when they're overtly pointing out they're not looking here and the rest of us are hindering them somewhat [23:05] <STR-Anubis> I was planning to set it up and see today but no real inclination now. Meh. Guess that's my venting done [23:06] <STR-Anubis> maybe I should post this up. We'll see

Wednesday wrote:[18:29] <STR-Anubis> I'm not really interested in being hounded onto it. Still feel much the same way as the other night. And they're supposedly still "testing" so I'll wait till it's official [18:30] <STR-Anubis> the more people swing by while I'm ingame, message me about it, and then logoff before I can see it and respond, the less inclined I am too......[18:36] <STR-Anubis> when they announce the obvious that they decided after half an hour that they were dropping IRC, will you stay with Discord? I guess I'm going to have to move eventually, but it would be sad (though I would be entirely unsurprised) if we lost people [18:38] <STR-Anubis> far as I'm concerned the argument of "new people turn up" doesn't stand if the people who've made the effort to be around for years go the other way [18:39] <STR-Anubis> I thought about writing this into a big long post and decided it wasn't worth the argument it would undoubtedly cause heh ......[18:42] <STR-Anubis> I don't object to the system, I've not tried it. I object to the way it's been/being done [18:42] <STR-Anubis> that's why I'm not going to join their "testing" project

I mean, what's really the point of having a discussion or vote on it since you guys have already decided you're not going back either way? As Tbird said, it's just an attempt to force people over by threatening them. Not the way we do business, and disingenuous to suggest this is even up for debate given your confirmation in your last reply that you're not going back regardless of what the membership may say in any poll.

I'm not really sure what my intentions are now, as I can't stand the way this has been done, and am very annoyed with the constant belittling IRC and those of us still using IRC have been subjected to in this thread, in the channel, and in the newspost. But I likewise don't want to lose contact with my friends. It's not a nice position to be in. For now I will be maintaining my decision of principle to avoid the system in protest. We'll see how I feel when I feel my point has been made, and the sooner that people stop with the above the sooner that will be.

And as Isi intimated, the sooner we get back to making decisions through debate and consensus, and away from this individual decree model that we seem to be working our way towards over the last few months, the better.

EDIT: Also, as I've said privately yesterday, if/when the announcement is made that Discord is official I'll be happy to look at integration into the website. But as we're still trialling it, that time is not now, and therefore we're not ready for that yet.

"Perhaps this is what I have always wished for since that day. The loss and destruction of all. That's right, one must destroy before creating. In that case, if my conscience becomes a hindrance to me, then I will simply erase it. I have no other choice but to move forward....therefore!" - Lelouch vi Britannia/Zero, Code Geass: Hangyaku no Lelouch

2:31 PMM.SteinerYa, hmm. No idea either looking at some of those instructions lol2:32 PMM.SteinerI'll stop going by IRC for now anyway. Just didn't sit right with me to not try & encourage Anny & Tbird to come across when they're the only two not in here. Just wanted to include them and have them come test with the rest of us.2:49 PMBlackDoveWe're not testing anything.2:49 PMBlackDoveIt's done.2:58 PMM.SteinerWell, I don't consider myself to be testing this now either as IRC has nothing on this, imo. I can't make that call for the whole group though so will help if others share their thoughts too.2:58 PMBlackDoveEveryone can choose for themselves.2:59 PMNFPersonally I'm on board with the move but we don't just make decisions for the whole group without a vote.2:59 PMBlackDoveWho is it making any decision like that?3:00 PMM.SteinerI tried to encourage Tbird & Anny to come & join us a few times since they're the only two who keep going on IRC but not on here, and didn't seem nice just leaving them alone on there. Tbird thought I was being forceful though so I'll quit with the comments and drivebys. Just wanted to include everyone and not leave people behind on there.3:00 PMBlackDoveDon't know about nice, but they know where we are.3:00 PMQuantumDeltain fairness.....3:00 PMQuantumDeltathe groups already voted really ;p3:00 PMBlackDoveMy point is, you're all free to leave.3:01 PMBlackDoveI'm staying.3:01 PMBlackDoveSame decision for each and every one of us.Suckers.3:04 PMM.SteinerI won't be leaving Discord either. It offers far too much and it's not a barrier for inviting other people in here with us like IRC is, which most people would have to follow a guide for unless they're familiar with it.3:04 PMM.SteinerIf it comes to it I'll go on IRC too and end up with 2 clients but I'd rather not 3:05 PMNFit's not that hard to setup IRC..3:05 PMBlackDoveIt's not even resource intensive.3:05 PMM.SteinerCompare inviting someone to our IRC channel to inviting someone to Discord though3:05 PMBlackDoveI just don't wanna run two, where one is archaic and missing most of the functions.3:05 PMNFAll I'm asking for is a bit of tact with this whole thing.3:06 PMNFWe go through this whole thing every time we want to make a change...3:07 PMBlackDoveBut nobody's being forced to make a change. Like IRC still works. People wanna use it, why not?3:07 PMBlackDoveWe won't be closing it down.3:08 PMM.SteinerWell, I've asked peeps to share their thoughts on the forum anyway (on how they're finding this), and comment on whether they think IRC offers enough positives over this for us not to make the move permanent 3:08 PMNFhmm.. fair enough..I guess3:08 PMBlackDoveI don't get the "permanent move" thing.3:08 PMBlackDoveIt doesn't apply to the situation.3:09 PMBlackDoveBut whatever.3:11 PMM.SteinerWell, when I say permanent. Take for example the main site nav and links. I spoke to Anny about adding some Discord links in the nav3:11 PMM.Steiner"Since you guys are just testing Discord at the moment, it wouldn't really be appropriate to put that into the Nav I don't think - since it's not an officially adopted thing."3:12 PMBlackDoveWell, you used the word "test", so I guess you need to define when we're done testing.3:12 PMM.SteinerWhich is true. I asked people to come & try this as a potential replacement for IRC. I believe we've found it, but I can't make that decision alone.3:12 PMBlackDoveI tested it for about a total of two minutes, then made my decision. I was done testing then.3:13 PMM.SteinerOh same.3:13 PMBlackDoveI had all the information I needed from the test.3:15 PMM.SteinerI do think the fact that this place already has more visitors than IRC has due to it being a bastard to join for some people, is telling enough. But whether it comes down to more comments in the thread being pro for staying here, or an actual poll if we have to make one, I can't speak for everyone is all I meant 3:15 PMBlackDoveWe need a poll?3:16 PMBlackDoveJust tell him the test's over, and he needs to put it into the nav, the end.3:16 PMM.SteinerI don't think we do but some may call for one3:16 PMBlackDoveBut what's the poll for? Whichever way it goes, nothing changes for me.3:17 PMBlackDoveOr any one of us for that matter.3:17 PMBlackDoveIs it a poll to put the thing into the nav?3:17 PMBlackDoveWe need polls for that now? Okay.3:18 PMNFif both IRC and Discord are going to be run together (specifically: we're not turning off IRC) then I see no issue with adding Discord links to site3:18 PMBlackDoveYeah, IRC should stay there.3:18 PMBlackDoveCause it's good as a backup if this has downtime3:19 PMNFDiscord Devs are also promising IRC linkups in future updates as well so hopefully we should be able to pull the two together at some point..3:19 PMBlackDoveSure, why not.3:20 PMM.SteinerMeant a decision as to whether we officially replace IRC with Discord generally speaking, rather than having some of us in here, some of us in IRC.3:21 PMBlackDoveOooooooooh, yeah, I don't give a damn about that.3:21 PMBlackDovePut em both up on the site.3:21 PMBlackDoveFreedom of choice and all that.3:21 PMNFAgree with BD there - people will just end up gravitating to where the conversation is3:22 PMM.SteinerI guess, would just be better to have us all in one place than divided us all 3:22 PMBlackDoveI have absolutely no problems or issues with conversations being on IRC, I just won't be a part of them, but it will always give me a warm and fuzzy feeling that I could be a part of it if I wanted to.3:23 PMBlackDovePER-SO-NAL RE-SPONSIBILITY3:32 PMM.SteinerSo would it be best if I renamed the thread? To our "IRC alternative" or something? Just let people use whatever they want rather than hoping everyone will just adopt this as our go-to place for chat?3:32 PMBlackDoveSure, why not. Though it appears like it's the other way around right now.3:33 PMBlackDoveBut who cares.3:33 PMBlackDoveAlso, I'm rather certain anyone desperate to get in touch with us trawling through the site, they're going to recognize "Discord" as the more friendly option, than the arcane step by step nightmare from hell the IRC thing is.3:34 PMM.SteinerYeah3:34 PMBlackDoveFor ease of use alone, and the fact it can be run in browser, Discord should be option #13:34 PMBlackDoveOther than that, I could give no further <censored>.3:34 PMM.SteinerDiscord is already picking up pace among gamers3:36 PMM.SteinerI'll edit the thread and make a new post when I go back to my PC - ask atm, something else I can't do with IRC 3:36 PMM.Steinerafk*3:36 PMBlackDove3:48 PMM.SteinerMakes life easier I suppose, just let everyone go wherever the <censored> they want. No testing or vote. Option is there to use both3:49 PMM.SteinerHow's that sound, @NF 3:49 PMNFFine with me3:51 PMM.Steinerkk

Walk on with hope in your heartAnd you'll never walk alone

[16:22] <SoulSeeker> i know its not the pc version but i kill kids for fun

And here's my point....for this being a test, we already have users declaring how things are going to be for the group. This had been mishandled since the beginning and has only brought about people unhappy with how the entire thing has been done. I can't say I blame them nor can I say that I'm particularly happy with how it has all unfolded. I'm only on Discord because of other groups that I participate with. If it were my choice, I would be lobbying for IRC as it is smaller, light weight, easy to manipulate, and I belong to way more chat groups in IRC than I do in Discord.

But that has nothing to do with where things stand currently with STR and this whole <censored>.

Some of the things that Discord is lauded for, are not used by those who are currently using Discord. You'd be better off handling two different setups for voice and text comms than you would one where half of the group ignore the functionality of the other. And the links? Honestly, how hard was it to click on links in IRC compared to now? OOOooooohhh, embedded video/audio links. Like that makes things that much better.

Seriously....you guys claimed trial and then shit on the word trial and just up and said that you weren't going back to IRC because Discord brought something 'better' to the game. But better isn't exactly functional in our situation. Scream SC or whatever you want, as of right now, Discord offers nothing new or groundbreaking that IRC did. I've spoken to those on both sides of the fence and I can honestly say that if you push this through and you force others' hands to use Discord, people will stop participating with the community, myself included. I'm sure there will be those who will have their fair share of shit to say and will try to disclaim how everyone else's opinion is irrelevant. And you can thank them when people stop coming and participating in an already struggling STR community.

I can't say I'm impressed with what I've seen with this 'trial' and to be honest will be leery when other 'trials' come through for the 'betterment' of the community...mainly because it doesn't seem like input is welcome but more the few want to force change through to try and change for changes' sake.

My words, take them for what they're worth. The rest who are critical, <censored> you.

Walk on with hope in your heartAnd you'll never walk alone

[16:22] <SoulSeeker> i know its not the pc version but i kill kids for fun

Anubis wrote:"Testing" doesn't include abandoning old platforms completely during the process, it's very clear BD and MS have made the decision already.

When I opened the Discord channel for us and posted this thread I had not made any decisions at all other than to create a potential new place for us to chat which would supposedly offer more than what we get from IRC and would hopefully be easier for us (and guests) to connect to, set-up and use. I'd never used it before either so I was neither one way or the other. I wanted people to come & try it with me. After using it all week? I think it does.I made my mind up fast that I love what Discord has has to offer but I don't speak for everyone, that's why I've been trying to get all of us in there to try it so we could hear what everyone had to say about it. Maybe this could have been handled better but having you two purposefully stay back and seemingly refuse to even try it hasn't really helped either. When all you had to do was click a link, didn't even have to install anything

Anubis wrote:the more people swing by while I'm ingame, message me about it, and then logoff before I can see it and respond, the less inclined I am too

I actually thought you were ignoring me and that's when I started to wonder whether I'd upset you or not. I'd slapped you on the main channel a few days before and didn't see a response when you were on there for 5-6? hrs, and then when I dropped by a day or two later and saw you in there again but not on Discord, not responding again. Did cross my mind. Also wondered whether you were busy in TW3 or just afk which is where my other comment came from that if you had the Discord app on your phone you'd not only be able to see the chat but get a notification on your phone that someone was talking to you as well. Was just trying to be lighthearted with the latter, but it's true. As for my other comments, I was just trying to encourage you both to come across & try with the rest of us rather than you being left out and sat back there on your own. Couldn't understand why neither of you had come across when you could have it open in a browser tab like any other website, so I tried to promote how easy that was. Didn't seem nice to ignore you both knowing you were sat there with the rest of us testing Discord.

Anubis wrote:Likewise, the "if you don't come do it you won't see us anymore since we're not coming back here" leaves a bad and insulting taste in my mouth. As have the pointed and disparaging comments every time I've looked back in here, when they're overtly pointing out they're not looking here and the rest of us are hindering them somewhat

I don't think I've ever said this myself up until after Tbirds post? I did say I'd stop coming on IRC whilst we were testing Discord (other than the flyby visits I said I'd do) as there didn't seem much point in joining both when the idea was for people to try this new thing, rather than trying to use both at the same time, thus splitting both the chat & our users. IRC wasn't going anywhere, I would have come back to IRC if the group had later decided (for whatever crazy reason ) that they preferred it over Discord and wanted to stay there as a group. - Since getting hands on with Discord too though I wouldn't be leaving that either.

So, and I'm not throwing my teddy out of the pram when saying this or having a go - My imput stops here. I try my best but I'm clearly not very good at trying to do things for the group as I usually seem to <censored> up one way or another or upset someone along the way. If you guys wanna have a discussion or poll on each and every thing we do as a group before we even do them, rather than have someone take the initiative to set something up for the group with the initial intention of us simply to try it. And I have always said to try it. Fine. Expect me to be taking more of a backseat from here on out.

We have IRC. We have Discord. Neither are going anywhere. Please consider trying the latter if you haven't yet. Use one, use the other, or use both. Each of you can decide what you want to use. Yes I love Discord now I've been using it this past week and would still remain on there too, regardless of whether we had chosen to remain on there as a group or not but all I've been asking for is for people to come try it as I did for the first time when I posted this thread, so we could reach such a decision as a group and either adpot Discord as our new main chat or stay on IRC, rather than having us split between 2 different STR channels. I didn't want us split but we can't do that when not all of us were coming across to test the damn thing and my "forcefulness" wasn't meant as such, but just to help promote us to do that and keep us all in one place whether we stayed there or came back. Together, even if some people still used whichever we left on an individual level. So, I will not force Discord on anyone and I will stop trying to encourage those of you (2) who were left behind on IRC to come and join us on there if you're happy where you are. If you're on Discord but you'd rather be using IRC?, I can't stop you. Use what you please, the decision is yours. This is just not how I wanted us to go about it but there you go. Just hope we don't end up here there and everywhere.... nn

"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"Nothing beside remains. Round the decayOf that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,The lone and level sands stretch far away.

I gave up maintaining the effort of having a voice comms and irc + forums + social media + phone + software platforms a while back.

I've basically turned my phone into a social media platform (the last non-new years phonecall made on my phone was.... to my insurance company at the beginning of december, before that, I'd actually have to look at my call log to tell you).Also, discord.Voicecomms has been replaced by discord too, on all but a few occasional, specific accounts where I have to go back to something almost as archaic as IRC is for voice comms (normally teamspeak ...).

IRC was the first to fall in this 'trimming back' on crap I maintain on my PC, for a number of reasons; showing it's age, unreliable servers, lack of activity/interest in the things I used it for... IRC for SSX was mostly an idlefest anyway when I stopped frequenting it. I stopped because I upgraded to a new PC and my mirc install got lost along the way, I hate the web browsers for irc and setting up another client / mirc was just frustrating.

I use Discord already for several other servers, so popping on when I was poked about this was a natural thing.

It's alright if you prefer IRC, however you should really bare in mind this statistic; "Over the past decade IRC usage has been declining: since 2003 it has lost 60% of its users (from 1 million to about 400,000 in 2014) and half of its channels (from half a million in 2003)"If you want to grow STR and recruit, irc isn't something to offer as a way to 'integrate and involve' new members.Sure, if they're 30-40 years old and been an online gamer most of their lives they might be okay with it, otherwise you're gonna get a funny look through your computer screen.

It's ultimately not going to effect me much either way, I was enjoying talking to some of you guys again, even had actual voice conversations with some of you guys (wow who'da thought).I'm not the only one in this situation, either. The literal 'one touch' join is superb, as is mobile support. The app is gaining functionality rather than losing it in dispating knowledge.

I'm in that position again where I feel like an involved outsider sticking my 2pence in, but I would strongly suggest that you not consider discord as an 'irc replacement', or yourselves being 'abandoned' by people moving on to that platform, but as a refresh and an opportunity. In the places where you do recruit it's going to be considerably easier to get them communally involved almost instantaneously.

When the SSC moved on to IRC it was the forefront of communications, it's probably the reason the group stuck to it so long and had so much success with it.It might be time to do that again, with a refresh.

That is entirely my perspective, however. I'm not here to tell anyone what's right or wrong.The only thing I would perhaps say... how many of you are currently active in the community anymore? Is it more than 14?

If not most people have been on discord already... hense my comments about voting.

Handled badly? Perhaps.

As a critical observation based on the things I've been involved in with this group "recently" though;

Being so resistant to change when the current formula isn't working for group growth or even maintaining it's current userbase is .....unproductive.

I would suggest getting out there, trying new things, creating new content. Build it, and they will come. Rest on your laurells in your basically 1998-esque format and ...well, it feels like you're where you'd end up already.

I really spent a while looking for a softer way to say that... I couldn't come up with one. You guys need interaction, engagement, and exposure.That is, assuming you're interested in group growth/survival (at this point, the people who are left are pretty diehard fans of the idea of the group, but it feels like there's too little a group for such hashed out arguments to keep being bounced back and forth in. More than discord, you need new input. Discord itself however, may be a small step towards getting you that. I don't have solid numbers but I reckon it's adoption is already higher than IRCs, for example.

That's all I got for ya though.

"Then, to hide their frailty, they hurt those who are kind.
I whisper farewell to this ugly world and dance nimbly with brilliant wings of red."

1) How the idea was proposed and implemented.2) The use of Discord over/with IRC

Starting with the first I do agree that the idea/trial was not as clear as it could have been. Nothing is going to change how it was handled so I suggest we learn from it. I have created a new thread in the members forum outlining some ideas around how to these types of decisions should be handled in the future. Have a look, throw in your two cents and lets nail down a way of doing this properly in the future.

Now on to the second point. First off I think it is worth clarifying that IRC is not being turned off and will remain available to all members who wish to use it. My understanding is that Discord has been proposed as an alternative communication method that people are free to use (or not) as they see fit.

Although I will admit that there is a risk of community fragmentation if we're using varying chat protocols I can't see it doing us any harm - especially considering the low numbers of people currently using each. If we get membership numbers up then perhaps this will be something we should revisit at a later date. For now though I see no issue with allowing people to make their own choice depending on their situation and personal preference.

I think QD is almost completely right here. I like IRC and feel that none of the things listed as advantages of Discord are things that we can't already do without it, but there is a very strong argument for Discord in its growth, appeal, and "relevance" with our audience. I haven't tried Discord as I've said, so I can't say which system I prefer or would back yet, but I see an argument there for sure.

But as far as I can see, the conclusion that some of us are clinging to the past or being resistant here isn't true - that's not the message that I'm seeing here. Mech is the only one in this thread who's used both and said he'd lobby for IRC (and he has his reasons, which I agree are good ones). I don't know if there are others out there who feel the same way, but I haven't seen any of the comments posted in this thread lobbying against the change or trying to block it.

As Isi said, if this had been handled properly without going round and metaphorically slapping people repeatedly in the face, then I'm pretty sure this would have been without drama and a likely quick approval. As it is, almost to a man everyone is upset with the process. That should not be construed as upset with the system. The chat log that Mech posted sums up EXACTLY what everyone is so unhappy about.

I was going to say that the big problem I have with the idea of "just use both" is that I feel that if we do that, longer term the community will die as it will have been fractured, meaning I don't therefore consider it a feasible option. But I'm glad NF has already raised that. I'm not sure I agree with the conclusion, but the Arbiter has spoken, I shall let that lie

Just to pick up on a couple of points specifically:

I actually thought you were ignoring me and that's when I started to wonder whether I'd upset you or not. I'd slapped you on the main channel a few days before and didn't see a response when you were on there for 5-6? hrs, and then when I dropped by a day or two later and saw you in there again but not on Discord, not responding again. Did cross my mind. Also wondered whether you were busy in TW3 or just afk

I've been playing Witcher 3 almost non-stop the last week while I've had free time (and have now finished it, expansion aside, but that's beside the point) which is why I haven't been responding to anyone in a timely fashion. I had wanted to reply saying that was why, and lay out some of the concerns mentioned here privately, but since you were never in the channel when I saw your messages, I didn't really have the chance.

My imput stops here. I try my best but I'm clearly not very good at trying to do things for the group as I usually seem to <censored> up one way or another or upset someone along the way.

I don't think that is what anyone is after here, or is necessary. Your ideas are good. Discord is a good idea to try. And I'm sure everyone would agree that you're suggesting them to try and improve things. The way they are presented though, that is what causes conflict - and that's not a "you" problem, we all are guilty of that from time to time. Hell, I used to be the worst offender. Hopefully NF's post in Members will help with that.

"Perhaps this is what I have always wished for since that day. The loss and destruction of all. That's right, one must destroy before creating. In that case, if my conscience becomes a hindrance to me, then I will simply erase it. I have no other choice but to move forward....therefore!" - Lelouch vi Britannia/Zero, Code Geass: Hangyaku no Lelouch

Anubis wrote:I'm not sure I agree with the conclusion, but the Arbiter has spoken, I shall let that lie

I agree it's not a solution that will please everyone but frankly I don't think there was a solution that would. To just expand on my thinking I see the forums as the primary communication channel for STR - this is where the key discussions and decisions are had and always have been. IRC, Discord, Steam Group/Chat, Teamspeak, Origin etc are all simply tools that facilitate instant communication and should be used as and when appropriate. Dictating a single tool seems more of a hindrance than a benefit in the long run.

In the end people will gravitate to where the conversation is, or what they find the better system. Eventually we might agree that Discord was the wrong choice or that IRC is no longer needed. Why not let it play out and see which people prefer.

I can't really speak for the way it was handled as I've had nothing to do with that.. I've literally just sat on discord talking to people I haven't talked to in ages, but...

Anubis wrote:But as far as I can see, the conclusion that some of us are clinging to the past or being resistant here isn't true - that's not the message that I'm seeing here. Mech is the only one in this thread who's used both and said he'd lobby for IRC (and he has his reasons, which I agree are good ones). I don't know if there are others out there who feel the same way, but I haven't seen any of the comments posted in this thread lobbying against the change or trying to block it.

You made a very critical logical flaw here, and I don't know how.

Every single person /on/ discord has used IRC, most quite externsively.

"Then, to hide their frailty, they hurt those who are kind.

I whisper farewell to this ugly world and dance nimbly with brilliant wings of red."

QuantumDelta wrote:I can't really speak for the way it was handled as I've had nothing to do with that.. I've literally just sat on discord talking to people I haven't talked to in ages, but...

Anubis wrote:But as far as I can see, the conclusion that some of us are clinging to the past or being resistant here isn't true - that's not the message that I'm seeing here. Mech is the only one in this thread who's used both and said he'd lobby for IRC (and he has his reasons, which I agree are good ones). I don't know if there are others out there who feel the same way, but I haven't seen any of the comments posted in this thread lobbying against the change or trying to block it.

You made a very critical logical flaw here, and I don't know how.

Every single person /on/ discord has used IRC, most quite externsively.

Ah, that wasn't what I meant -sorry, reading back I can see I wasn't clear

What I meant to say was that of all the people who have used both, Mech's the only one who's currently said he'd argue in favour of IRC. As in, it's not right we're all trying to cling onto the past as only one person is currently lobbying for the IRC option. Sorry for confusion!

And for the record I'd very much enjoy chatting with you and others who haven't recently used IRC again too, whatever the platform. I just don't want it to come about this way is all.

"Perhaps this is what I have always wished for since that day. The loss and destruction of all. That's right, one must destroy before creating. In that case, if my conscience becomes a hindrance to me, then I will simply erase it. I have no other choice but to move forward....therefore!" - Lelouch vi Britannia/Zero, Code Geass: Hangyaku no Lelouch

I echo the sentiments of Anubis, Mech, and Isi. I stayed silent on this issue because I brought up my concerns with the social media issue not long ago. I see this as a very similar situation, and I'm a bit disappointed. We hashed out concerns and came to a civil resolution about things at the time, but I'm saddened to see those sentiments weren't taken to heart.

Furthermore, my criticisms of this platform are similar to those I had when someone suggested a similar platform called Slack.

IRC is an open protocol. You can certainly access it via your mobile, or nearly any other device. We own our IRC server and control what happens with it. Discord is a walled garden service which is only accessible via their proprietary application. Furthermore, it is a blatant data-mining operation. They make their money by recording and selling your personal information. A few gems from their terms of service:

By uploading, distributing, transmitting or otherwise using Your Data with the Services, you grant to us a nonexclusive, transferable, royalty-free, sublicensable, and worldwide license to use Your Data, subject to the Company’s Privacy Policy.

Additionally, when you use the Service, your device’s operating system, Internet Protocol (IP) address, access times, browser type and language and referring Web site addresses are logged automatically. We also collect information about your usage and activity, such as number of clicks, pages viewed and the order of those pages, the amount of time spent on particular pages, and the date and time of this activity.

We may feature advertisements on our Service served by third parties. These advertisers may collect and use information about your visits to our Service in order to provide advertisements about goods and services of interest to you.

The Service may also contain third party tracking tools from service providers, an example of which includes the Facebook SDK. Hammer & Chisel may use these third parties’ APIs and/or SDKs in our Service, which may enable these third parties to analyze user information.

Problems with people using our IRC guide have to do with the guide focusing on the archaic mIRC client and a script that hasn't been in development since 2009. NNScript won't even run on semi-modern versions of mIRC. If you present people with a guide from 2004, of course they are going to have trouble getting things set up. Hexchat or browser-based clients like Mibbit are much easier to use than mIRC.

I do agree with a lot of what QD had to say about the growth of the platform and being able to adapt and reach people. I'll be happy to pop in to Discord while I browse the forums, but I just can't ever see it becoming something I use frequently.