I have found the teeth to make no difference. the anodizing on the reverso3 makes the device extra slippery, especially on newer ropes. I do notice that when belaying a second, the BD version and the reverso when clipped in to the anchor are oriented perpendicular to each other, not sure which is better, since I only have the one. I prefer chicken ramen noodles over the beef.

I have found the teeth to make no difference. the anodizing on the reverso3 makes the device extra slippery, especially on newer ropes. I do notice that when belaying a second, the BD version and the reverso when clipped in to the anchor are oriented perpendicular to each other, not sure which is better, since I only have the one. I prefer chicken ramen noodles over the beef.

My wife is way too light, I have to feed the rope when I lower her or other lighter people. I have purposely avoided devices with teeth for this reason, itís completely unnecessary unless you have no grip strength or a limp wrist. I even went out and bought the fattest locker I could find to make it run smoother and it helped but not enough. If you want or need teeth fine I just wish there was an option without.

Oh I see what youíre saying. Yeah I could do that for regular belay but I also donít like the amount of friction in the autoblock mode. Maybe Iím just bitching about something that doesnít matter but personally I really donít like it and would rather think about other things like eating or enjoying the scenery then fighting with my belay device when Iím three four pitches up. Iíve only used it in autoblock mode a couple of times so far and really donít like the resistance compared to my original reverso but thatís too worn out now and I donít think they sell them anymore. Maybe Iíll just make my own (donít tell my wife I just said that, I told her today I wanted to make my own skis, sheís ok with the craziness so far but I donít want to push it).

I have found the teeth to make no difference. the anodizing on the reverso3 makes the device extra slippery, especially on newer ropes. I do notice that when belaying a second, the BD version and the reverso when clipped in to the anchor are oriented perpendicular to each other, not sure which is better, since I only have the one. I prefer chicken ramen noodles over the beef.

My wife is way too light, I have to feed the rope when I lower her or other lighter people. I have purposely avoided devices with teeth for this reason, itís completely unnecessary unless you have no grip strength or a limp wrist. I even went out and bought the fattest locker I could find to make it run smoother and it helped but not enough. If you want or need teeth fine I just wish there was an option without.

So you're saying that you should be using it on the low friction side and your wife should use it on the high friction side?

Oh I see what youíre saying. Yeah I could do that for regular belay but I also donít like the amount of friction in the autoblock mode. Maybe Iím just bitching about something that doesnít matter but personally I really donít like it and would rather think about other things like eating or enjoying the scenery then fighting with my belay device when Iím three four pitches up. Iíve only used it in autoblock mode a couple of times so far and really donít like the resistance compared to my original reverso but thatís too worn out now and I donít think they sell them anymore. Maybe Iíll just make my own (donít tell my wife I just said that, I told her today I wanted to make my own skis, sheís ok with the craziness so far but I donít want to push it).

Too much friction in auto-block mode? The whole point is that the rope won't move....it's blocked.

I bought the Reverso3, but i like the ATC guide better. What do you guys think?

I think that yellow is a nice color, and I think my truck needs a camper shell, but not as badly as I need a real job.

I think that I love my camper shell on my truck, and if you get one, you won't need a real job because you won't need to pay rent as often. I think yellow is a colour for nancy boys and small children.

I've used both and I think each has its own merits. When belaying the second in autoblock mode, you can clip a Petzl Spirit biner through the hole on the bottom of the Reverso if you need to and use that to lower out/give slack. The hole is there on the BD, but you have to tie cord to it to get a biner through.

It is hard to belay up two seconds using fat ropes with the Reverso. I've heard it's easier with the BD but haven't used it for that purpose so I don't know.

It is hard to belay up two seconds using fat ropes with the Reverso. I've heard it's easier with the BD but haven't used it for that purpose so I don't know.

yes, and it's easy enough to just loops a skinny sling or cord through the hole in the guide. if yu are lowering your second that much get a cinch (my favorite singe rope belay device after the guide) or a grigri

I've used both and I think each has its own merits. When belaying the second in autoblock mode, you can clip a Petzl Spirit biner through the hole on the bottom of the Reverso if you need to and use that to lower out/give slack. The hole is there on the BD, but you have to tie cord to it to get a biner through.

It is hard to belay up two seconds using fat ropes with the Reverso. I've heard it's easier with the BD but haven't used it for that purpose so I don't know.

The nose of a hotwire works well in there too.

I had to bring seconds up at the same time with two 10.2's with my Reverso 3. It was a workout.

you mean the device that's a cheap ripoff of the old petzl reverso- the one that tends to turn into a knife over time? there's a reason petzl changed the design- even if they wont actually say that in press releases.

So you're saying that you should be using it on the low friction side and your wife should use it on the high friction side?

My wife has her own belay device.

granite_grrl wrote:

Too much friction in auto-block mode? The whole point is that the rope won't move....it's blocked.

Perhaps just give the Guide to your wife and learn to use a munter.

Do you know how these devices work? Or perhaps you donít understand what I mean; Iím not talking about lowering in autoblock mode Iím talking about pulling slack. Iíve used an autoblock for years, I just donít care for the way these devices work. Iím sure some people find it useful I personally donít like it.

I canít buy Kong, I donít have a rational reason for it I just canít. Is the B52 and autoblock? I didnít know that. Madrock has the same downfall the old reverso had. And I donít care for the Toucan either. A friend of mine has one and Iíve used it once, I just didnít like it. I think the ATC guide without teeth is exactly what I want but itís just not made.

Edit: I just read up on the B52 and see how itís an autoblock. I like the ability to lower that petzl and BD have put on their devices and the B52 does not have this.

Edit: I never looked at the Madlock before, is it even an autoblock? It doesnít look like it has an autoblock mode just a bottle opener.

I bought the Reverso3, but i like the ATC guide better. What do you guys think?

The main difference is that the attachment point that you use in 'reverso mode' is angled 90į differently. The way I built anchors and hook it up doesn't work with the BD, but works well with the Petzl. But this might be the other way around for you.

I've used both and I think each has its own merits. When belaying the second in autoblock mode, you can clip a Petzl Spirit biner through the hole on the bottom of the Reverso if you need to and use that to lower out/give slack. The hole is there on the BD, but you have to tie cord to it to get a biner through.

It is hard to belay up two seconds using fat ropes with the Reverso. I've heard it's easier with the BD but haven't used it for that purpose so I don't know.

Not necessarily. Usually you can just use a carabiner, but it has to keylock instead of notched.

you mean the device that's a cheap ripoff of the old petzl reverso- the one that tends to turn into a knife over time? there's a reason petzl changed the design- even if they wont actually say that in press releases.

you mean the device that's a cheap ripoff of the old petzl reverso- the one that tends to turn into a knife over time? there's a reason petzl changed the design- even if they wont actually say that in press releases.

yeah? but it opens beer bottles.

Dude, the newspaper opens beer bottles other bottles open botlles, rocks, knives, lighters and teeth. This has been discussed at length a 100 times do a search you NooB!

So you're saying that you should be using it on the low friction side and your wife should use it on the high friction side?

My wife has her own belay device.

granite_grrl wrote:

Too much friction in auto-block mode? The whole point is that the rope won't move....it's blocked.

Perhaps just give the Guide to your wife and learn to use a munter.

Do you know how these devices work? Or perhaps you donít understand what I mean; Iím not talking about lowering in autoblock mode Iím talking about pulling slack. Iíve used an autoblock for years, I just donít care for the way these devices work. Iím sure some people find it useful I personally donít like it.

I haven't used a reverso, but the BD guide isn't too smooth with the fatter ropes. I was just messing around with it in guide mode using a 10.5 rope. Seems like it would be quite the workout. I threw in another biner just to see if it would be smoother, not too much...

I haven't used a reverso, but the BD guide isn't too smooth with the fatter ropes. I was just messing around with it in guide mode using a 10.5 rope. Seems like it would be quite the workout. I threw in another biner just to see if it would be smoother, not too much...

That's all I was saying.

I don't buy Kong and I don't shop at Kmart. Maybe Kong has improved their products since the last time I looked at their catalog but it always looked like cheap shit to me.

It appears to have the characteristics you are looking for. If you think it looks like cheap shit, then I'll be superlatively curious on what you think make the Black Diamond ATC Guide and the Petzl Reverso 3 any different.

The Kong looks okay, it does somehow look cheap. Biggest thing for me is I am not a big fan of metal on metal. You could use something like a dmm belay master, but the metal there might pop that plastic spacer right out. I would hate to see some of the twist action that thing could do on a gate. May not be a problem, but it does remind me on an eight.

Does the kong have any sort of lowering feature for belaying a second?

My climbing partner is the opposite. After have a keeper cord break on him, he prefers to have a metal loop. When the original Petzl Reverso first came out he happily switched over to it and has been using it ever since.

Travis_22 wrote:

You could use something like a dmm belay master, but the metal there might pop that plastic spacer right out.

How does using a DMM Belay Master, or the DMM Belay Master 2, avoid the metal on metal scenario?

Travis_22 wrote:

I would hate to see some of the twist action that thing could do on a gate. May not be a problem, but it does remind me on an eight.

Sorry, you've lost me.

Travis_22 wrote:

Does the kong have any sort of lowering feature for belaying a second?

I don't know for sure. But from looking at the photos of the Kong Ghost, I think it would be easy to use the metal loop (where the belay biner goes - the part that usually a coated wire on other belay devices) for leverage.

Well, the grigri and most all the auto locking are a little different, with its smaller slot. The revers(ino?) has a wider metal piece.

What i was talking about with the belay biner, there had been some bad things going on with the figure eight belay. Seems that someone died because the metal eye got positioned over the gate and the metal on metal (twist action I suppose) broke the twisty ring to lock the biner. Apparently, with most biners it only takes a few hundred pounds to break the gate with an inward force. This couldn't happen with a regular atc. Kinda scared me from using my 8, but I probably still will, I just need to watch it. I have noticed a few times using the figure 8 that the eye can easily be positioned over the gate.

It just seems to me that a soft connection is a much better idea. I am allowed to have my own opinion, I hope. The kong (and other models) have wider eyes, which would make it a lot safer methinks.

Yeah, I guess you could use that loop to lower someone. Just girth a sling on her.

The last time I looked at Kong gear was about 8-9 years ago when I first started climbing and was building my rack. I had friends that had some of their cams, nuts, bineers, and even a funky ass belay device and all of it looked like shit kinda like Gear4Rocks does now. I ended up buying Trango Flex cams which the old school cams didnít look as clean and professional as other cams or as they do now but after buying one and using it I didnít care. After playing with a Kong cam I was convinced Iíd never own one. Iíve never had anyone defend Kong when I said it was shit before so I never looked at their stuff since but I just went to their web site and I admit it looks a hell of a lot better than it used to. So now my complaint against the Kong Ghost is it doesnít have a built in way to lower.

I guess Harbor Freight would be a better example than Kmart but I do shop at Harbor Freight for some things, the difference is I donít hang my life on them.

Someone said above that I should grind the teeth off and Iíve thought about that but I think Iíll just make a device that has everything I want rather than try to modify one that exist.

Well, the grigri and most all the auto locking are a little different, with its smaller slot. The revers(ino?) has a wider metal piece.

What i was talking about with the belay biner, there had been some bad things going on with the figure eight belay. Seems that someone died because the metal eye got positioned over the gate and the metal on metal (twist action I suppose) broke the twisty ring to lock the biner. Apparently, with most biners it only takes a few hundred pounds to break the gate with an inward force. This couldn't happen with a regular atc. Kinda scared me from using my 8, but I probably still will, I just need to watch it. I have noticed a few times using the figure 8 that the eye can easily be positioned over the gate.

It just seems to me that a soft connection is a much better idea. I am allowed to have my own opinion, I hope. The kong (and other models) have wider eyes, which would make it a lot safer methinks.

Yeah, I guess you could use that loop to lower someone. Just girth a sling on her.

Alright, think i'm done talking.

Thank goodness. I don't think I've ever read so much by someone who doesn't really know what he's talking about.

The last time I looked at Kong gear was about 8-9 years ago when I first started climbing and was building my rack. I had friends that had some of their cams, nuts, bineers, and even a funky ass belay device and all of it looked like shit kinda like Gear4Rocks does now. I ended up buying Trango Flex cams which the old school cams didnít look as clean and professional as other cams or as they do now but after buying one and using it I didnít care. After playing with a Kong cam I was convinced Iíd never own one. Iíve never had anyone defend Kong when I said it was shit before so I never looked at their stuff since but I just went to their web site and I admit it looks a hell of a lot better than it used to. So now my complaint against the Kong Ghost is it doesnít have a built in way to lower.

I guess Harbor Freight would be a better example than Kmart but I do shop at Harbor Freight for some things, the difference is I donít hang my life on them.

Someone said above that I should grind the teeth off and Iíve thought about that but I think Iíll just make a device that has everything I want rather than try to modify one that exist.

ALL of these type auto blocking belay devices have the simplest of lowering methods intrinsic to their nature. And here it is, clip a sling to the blocking carabiner, thread sling through a higher anchor, KEEP BREAK HAND ON BREAK SIDE, KEEP BREAK HAND ON BREAK SIDE, pull down on sling and lower.

I read a lot of responses and was surprised to see that no one has mentioned the weight. The Petzl Reverso is much lighter than the ATC Guide. I believe it's 105g for the ATC and 75 for the Reverso, or something like that.

Also, as a few people have mentioned, you can stick the nose of pretty much any keylock biner in the lowering hole of the Reverso... not sure it's that easy with the guide, although you could use a nut tool for either.

They are oriented differently in AB mode... 90* difference but I can't see why that would make any difference.

The middle of the ATC sticks out lower than the outer two walls, so it "rocks" on the biner when belaying two seconds. The Reverso doesn't do this and I've heard that it is easier to lower one person when belaying two seconds with the ATC but I've never actually done it so I can't be sure.

I'm sure that's sarcasm (I think), but what I meant is difficult to "unbreak" in autoblock mode when a second has fallen. ie., that little hole that you take a carabiner or cord to release the tension.

Meh, I'll go ahead and actually add something to this thread, since I own and have used both thoroughly (the reverso3 was a gift).

My advice is to get whichever one is cheaper. Honestly. There is very, very little difference between the two. That being said, I have a slight preference for the ATC-Guide for a couple of reasons.

1. I've had it longer. It's been loved, and it shows. I don't like shiny gear.

2. It feeds slightly more smoothly in both modes.

3. The reverso3 has this weird tendency for the brake side of the rope to flip over the side rail, rather than stay in its groove, when being used in normal mode belaying. Even more so with twisty ropes.

4. Contrary to popular belief, you can actually get quite a bit of stuff into that little brake release tab/slot, including some very small 'biner noses, cord, skinny slings, etc. And even if you couldn't, do you really need to? You just don't use it in guide mode if you expect to have to lower someone. In a few years using this device, I can only recall one time where I needed to briefly release tension on a weighted ATC-Guide in guide mode. It was exceedingly easy.

That being said, if I'm going to be using super skinny lines (sub 9.5 singles) all day long, I might whip out the reverso3. It does tend to have a little more braking power with skinny ropes. Anything above 9.5, though and it's just a little stickier in comparison to the guide, which can be annoying.

That being said, if I'm going to be using super skinny lines (sub 9.5 singles) all day long, I might whip out the reverso3. It does tend to have a little more braking power with skinny ropes. Anything above 9.5, though and it's just a little stickier in comparison to the guide, which can be annoying.

Sort of interesting that, it is a perception thing I guess! Iīve done lot of pull tests with both the XP Guide and Reverso ≥. Holding falls the ATC is the more powerful of the two for all sizes of rope by about 5% and when you get to really thick (10,5 and up ) ropes the Reverso falls away badly as the V slots are so narrow the rope canīt get in and brake properly. By then it doesnīt really matter anyway as there is plenty of power for most situations. Abseiling the situation is reversed and the Reverso≥ is more powerful unti 10mm where the V problem occurs again, in real life this is probably irrelevant. Pull through the Reverso is the stickier on average of 8% especially over 9.5mm. Neither is as powerful as the ATC XP. (And after a lot of abuse you will notice the centre rib of the Reverso is too narrow and starts to become damaged by the karabiner).

I didn't realize this was scrutinizemypostsformispellingsthensayi'msorry.com.

Next time I'll run any posts through a proofreader so I can avoid the public shame.

Can we return this thread to actually talking about climbing? I clarified my original post, I didn't ask for a lesson on spelling or the application of words, I just wanted to talk about the ATC/ Reverso.....Jeezzzz

I didn't realize this was scrutinizemypostsformispellingsthensayi'msorry.com.

Next time I'll run any posts through a proofreader so I can avoid the public shame.

Can we return this thread to actually talking about climbing? I clarified my original post, I didn't ask for a lesson on spelling or the application of words. Jeezzzz

Good grief, take the criticism and quit whining. Spelling matters when you communicate in the written form. I read your post and didn't understand your point because you used the wrong word. So I called you out on it. Deal with it.

Scotty1974. This is a forum on gear. So if you have nothing to contribute, you should go post somewhere else. You obviously are not suited for this discussion. Actually don't care what you have to say, but thought it comical that Shoo actually had some usefull input, and you are the one that is wasting everyone's time. Not that this thread makes any difference in the world. It's more for people with a mechanical background, obviously you do not understand.

Scotty1974. This is a forum on gear. So if you have nothing to contribute, you should go post somewhere else. You obviously are not suited for this discussion. Actually don't care what you have to say, but thought it comical that Shoo actually had some usefull input, and you are the one that is wasting everyone's time. Not that this thread makes any difference in the world. It's more for people with a mechanical background, obviously you do not understand.

Dear Luke, Scotty and I have long reconciled our differences. Since then, we have discovered a mutual love for small furry animals. They are delicious. To cut a long story short, we got married and have had two children. They're about your age, now.

Dear Luke, Scotty and I have long reconciled our differences. Since then, we have discovered a mutual love for small furry animals. They are delicious. To cut a long story short, we got married and have had two children. They're about your age, now.

I love it! I knew there was something weird going on. Don't want anyone to choke on small animals. Sorry if i offended you lovebirds. These forums get ridiculous sometimes (plus most everyone up here is a little nuts!).

I do not see how it looks any different in quality compared to the Black Diamond ATC Guide or the Petzl Reverso 3. Perhaps it's the non-studio quality of the photos on Storrick's site?

<SNIP>

I can't be the only one who doesn't SEE a difference in quality when looking at these photos.

When I still maintained my site, I reduced all photos to 72dpi. Reducing their size allowed me to keep the web site within the size limits that I was paying for. Now that my site is gone, I feel that the "non-studio quality" issue is irrelevant.

Photos aside, I don't see an obvious "quality" difference in the "looks" of my samples of these two devices.

I own three of the above mentioned devices, purchased about a year apart from each other. The BD is heaviest and I didn't like the orientation as much as the other two for belaying up the second(s). I find both the BD and Reverso3 suck with bigger ropes, so I went and tried the Ghost with slightly better results. The one thing about the Ghost I don't like, is the annoying cowbell sound it creates when not in use, and a slightly higher likely hood of it getting dropped if I am not careful. On smaller ropes (sub 10mm) I prefer the Rev3, larger ropes the Ghost wins.

I've used both and I think each has its own merits. When belaying the second in autoblock mode, you can clip a Petzl Spirit biner through the hole on the bottom of the Reverso if you need to and use that to lower out/give slack. The hole is there on the BD, but you have to tie cord to it to get a biner through.

It is hard to belay up two seconds using fat ropes with the Reverso. I've heard it's easier with the BD but haven't used it for that purpose so I don't know.

You don't need to tie anything through it... thread a #6 stopper through and clip a biner to that.

I've used both and I think each has its own merits. When belaying the second in autoblock mode, you can clip a Petzl Spirit biner through the hole on the bottom of the Reverso if you need to and use that to lower out/give slack. The hole is there on the BD, but you have to tie cord to it to get a biner through.

It is hard to belay up two seconds using fat ropes with the Reverso. I've heard it's easier with the BD but haven't used it for that purpose so I don't know.

You don't need to tie anything through it... thread a #6 stopper through and clip a biner to that.

or use any of the mini-biners made post-atc-guide, the new Nano, FS Mini, and Neutrino all fit in there. Id suspect quite a few others do as well.