Yes, they are the same. One thing a lot of people seem to miss with the discussion, is that real guns are the same as well. The barrel of the gun, and the bullet type have everything to say with accuracy in the a real gun. The cartridge provides the force to propel the bullet down the barrel. People THINK that different guns are inherently more accurate, because they dont swap barrels, and/or they use a different cartridge type. But, really, the gun itself doesnt matter. It is just the loading mechanism.

In paintball, the barrel doesnt matter, as you dont want to impart spin on the ball. (the only reason that the barrel really matters in a real gun is to give it spin) A lot of people argue that the marker can effect the accuracy due to differences in air turbulence, and pressure consistency. The air turbulence is a moot point. Whatever small amount of difference you can make in the gun, goes right out the window once it gets to the barrel. Although the ball might be SLIGHTLY better off at the start of its movement, the gains are lost by the time the ball goes out the barrel. Variations in FPS can affect ball trajectory, but as long as your FPS is stable, you are good to go. A couple FPS here and there doesnt affect things, as you will never be shooting ball on ball, like you would with a real firearm. The physics just arent comparable. If you have a completely trash reg, which is spiking the FPS, then yes, I would say that in that particular instance, the gun is less accurate. But that is due to pressure fluctuation. All modern regs that I have come across manage at least +-6 fps over the chrono, and that is not enough to cause significant statistical differences in ball trajectory.

Now, obviously I am discussing if the marker is in a vice, shooting at fixed positions, etc. I am excluding the human variable. There ARE guns that people find easier to aim with, and therefore they become more accurate with that gun. No doubt about that. I find longer guns easier to point and follow people with, and find myself more accurate with them. But that is due to the fact that we dont use sights, and the longer barrel/gun makes it easier for our brain to guess where things are going to land. This is more important to people that flip guns a lot, as once you have had a gun for a while, your brain makes the calculations quickly, because it is used to it.

So after debating for a while in yet another accuracy thread, I thought I would pop in here quick and ask:

Paintball Markers do have identical accuracy, correct? Not counting barrels or anything like that, they do shoot the same accuracy and precision, right?

I guess your talking about the thread of David A.? Yeah, all guns do have the same accuracy, see he's misunderstanding the data thats being presented to him by punkworks and is thinking that reinforces his claim. Which is something along the lines of "More velocity = more accuracy" and "Old guns are worse than new ones" Or that is what i gathered about it.

they will shot within the margin of error of the paint and conditions. idk, in theory guns could be more or less accurate (depending on some factors) but, in the real world, with real world conditions, they will shoot the same patterns yes.

Edited by cockerpunk, 19 March 2012 - 12:45 PM.

The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

they will shot within the margin of error of the paint and conditions. idk, in theory guns could be more or less accurate (depending on some factors) but, in the real world, with real world conditions, they will shoot the same patterns yes.

But to what factor? A insignificant amount right? So little that the only marginal differences noticed without extensive research, is just a placebo effect? Wouldn't it be much simpler to say: "All markers have the same accuracy" While a generalization it still rings more true than to say otherwise?

they will shot within the margin of error of the paint and conditions. idk, in theory guns could be more or less accurate (depending on some factors) but, in the real world, with real world conditions, they will shoot the same patterns yes.

But to what factor? A insignificant amount right? So little that the only marginal differences noticed without extensive research, is just a placebo effect? Wouldn't it be much simpler to say: "All markers have the same accuracy" While a generalization it still rings more true than to say otherwise?

well im just saying, on some level guns could have different accuracy. but the whole "light, imperfect sphere with a seam, with some small spin, flying through air" pretty much covers anything up that the gun could do.

im just saying that when factors for accuracy are ranked, any effect the gun might have is covered up by other much much larger and important factors.

The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

they will shot within the margin of error of the paint and conditions. idk, in theory guns could be more or less accurate (depending on some factors) but, in the real world, with real world conditions, they will shoot the same patterns yes.

But to what factor? A insignificant amount right? So little that the only marginal differences noticed without extensive research, is just a placebo effect? Wouldn't it be much simpler to say: "All markers have the same accuracy" While a generalization it still rings more true than to say otherwise?

well im just saying, on some level guns could have different accuracy. but the whole "light, imperfect sphere with a seam, with some small spin, flying through air" pretty much covers anything up that the gun could do.

im just saying that when factors for accuracy are ranked, any effect the gun might have is covered up by other much much larger and important factors.

So after debating for a while in yet another accuracy thread, I thought I would pop in here quick and ask:

Paintball Markers do have identical accuracy, correct? Not counting barrels or anything like that, they do shoot the same accuracy and precision, right?

I guess your talking about the thread of David A.? Yeah, all guns do have the same accuracy, see he's misunderstanding the data thats being presented to him by punkworks and is thinking that reinforces his claim. Which is something along the lines of "More velocity = more accuracy" and "Old guns are worse than new ones" Or that is what i gathered about it.

Please re-look at my post, my velocity discussion is, " same velocity = more precission" . Some older or CO2 markers either un- regulated or with poor quality regulators have worst precission than markers markers that shoot a consistent velocity. What do you think?

Yes, consistency will affect your accuracy, but all modern markers and regulators give consistent FPS when properly maintained. A blanket statement for all guns doesnt work, but I dont think anyone ever really made a blanket statement. Same goes for barrels. They dont help or hurt your accuracy... Unless they are completely screwed up, and causing problems. Some older barrels that were not honed, or poorly honed, or something to that affect would likely have a negative impact. But barrels like that simply arent made anymore. Same goes for markers.

they will shot within the margin of error of the paint and conditions. idk, in theory guns could be more or less accurate (depending on some factors) but, in the real world, with real world conditions, they will shoot the same patterns yes.

Hi, you seem to be quite an authority on this subject. I noticed that you made a brief comment on my post, nothing nasty, nothing helpful either. I know my post my be long winded, will you take a few minutes to look it over and let me know what you believe is incorrect? It my be the paintball itself is such a poor and inconsistent projectile that even a modicum of consistency surpasses the significance of the weakest link? For sake of argument, let's assume great paint, like fresh Marbelizer or Ultra Evil...look forward to your reply.

Yes, consistency will affect your accuracy, but all modern markers and regulators give consistent FPS when properly maintained. A blanket statement for all guns doesnt work, but I dont think anyone ever really made a blanket statement. Same goes for barrels. They dont help or hurt your accuracy... Unless they are completely screwed up, and causing problems. Some older barrels that were not honed, or poorly honed, or something to that affect would likely have a negative impact. But barrels like that simply arent made anymore. Same goes for markers.

Someone did make the statement "all paintball guns have the same accuracy" if you look through this tread, it was repeated several times. I am not saying there is a big differance in all modern, well maintained, well regulated, resonable markers, just not "All markers..."

Someone did make the statement "all paintball guns have the same accuracy" if you look through this tread, it was repeated several times. I am not saying there is a big differance in all modern, well maintained, well regulated, resonable markers, just not "All markers..."

they will shot within the margin of error of the paint and conditions. idk, in theory guns could be more or less accurate (depending on some factors) but, in the real world, with real world conditions, they will shoot the same patterns yes.

Hi, you seem to be quite an authority on this subject. I noticed that you made a brief comment on my post, nothing nasty, nothing helpful either. I know my post my be long winded, will you take a few minutes to look it over and let me know what you believe is incorrect? It my be the paintball itself is such a poor and inconsistent projectile that even a modicum of consistency surpasses the significance of the weakest link? For sake of argument, let's assume great paint, like fresh Marbelizer or Ultra Evil...look forward to your reply.

more or less, yes, thats what our testing shows.

we have not found among guns like the ones your talking about, and even most barrels, there isn't a difference in accuracy. the paint, and the simple fundamentals of firing a non perfect lightweight sphere with a seam on it, through air at high speed is just not a recipe for accuracy. the air flow around the ball is so chaotic, i find it actually amazing we can hit anything at all.

so, i dont really disagree that having a nice consistent gun, a gun that doesn't put spin or bounce or lube or anything on the ball is ideal, but under normal conditions, the airflow around even a very good paintball, covers up any difference we could see in guns (or barrels)

links to airflow:[img]http://www.google.com/imgres?um=1&hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&sa=N&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&biw=1600&bih=771&tbm=isch&tbnid=bTAoEJvkK2L0pM:&imgrefurl=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%25C3%25A1rm%25C3%25A1n_vortex_street&docid=hnfgbxSdEbliPM&imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b4/Vortex-street-animation.gif&w=400&h=200&ei=tURpT4yoLcazsgLCxfCQCQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=144&vpy=164&dur=622&hovh=159&hovw=318&tx=178&ty=83&sig=103002807551233388401&page=1&tbnh=83&tbnw=166&start=0&ndsp=32&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0[/img]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%A1rm%C3%A1n_vortex_street

The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

Thank all of you at Punkworks for you explanations regarding accuracy in paint guns...I have a question,, if all the barrels have the same accuracy and all the markers have the same accuray, why do you continue to do accuracy test? If consistant FPS makes no difference, why then do you test for it report it and show SD like it means something? Why was FPS and SD only thing you showed on your G6R break-in test? Seems you might have been better off showing efficiency or recoil test? Or maybe something else that mattered...Look forward to you reply.

the reason they continued testing was to have a plentiful amount of data because surely someone would come along and go "but XXXX is more accurate" and they are saying that consistent FPS makes a difference if it is within i believe it is +- 15 fps any more than that and you can tell otherwise you won't notice any difference. and they also record the FPS and SD so that people can see all of their data and they are not just going "well we saw this so that is what it is" because no one would trust them without the data to support it.

FPS and SD was shown in the g6r break in test to see if there was a significant change in the performance as the gun had more cycles on it, the g6r test had absolutely nothing to do with accuracy. efficiency tests have been done and beat to death there is no point. punkworks did attempt to do one "recoil" test and the results if i remember right came out to there is so little difference it doesn't matter and the complex muscles in your hand adapt to those minute changes that "recoil or kick" really are non noticeable.

gordon or bryce feel free to correct me on this one, this is only off my memory from when the tests first came out.

Thank all of you at Punkworks for you explanations regarding accuracy in paint guns...I have a question,, if all the barrels have the same accuracy and all the markers have the same accuray, why do you continue to do accuracy test? If consistant FPS makes no difference, why then do you test for it report it and show SD like it means something? Why was FPS and SD only thing you showed on your G6R break-in test? Seems you might have been better off showing efficiency or recoil test? Or maybe something else that mattered...Look forward to you reply.

well the short answer is that we don't do much accuracy testing anymore.

but when someone makes a claim we have not tested yet (or something reasonably close), we would go out and do more testing.

we have been doing recoil, and efficiency tests.

in the break in tests, the FPS does show the efficiency, because we never changed a setting or the reg on the gun. if the FPS went up, the gun was shooting more efficiently.

The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

Thank all of you at Punkworks for you explanations regarding accuracy in paint guns...I have a question,, if all the barrels have the same accuracy and all the markers have the same accuray, why do you continue to do accuracy test? If consistant FPS makes no difference, why then do you test for it report it and show SD like it means something? Why was FPS and SD only thing you showed on your G6R break-in test? Seems you might have been better off showing efficiency or recoil test? Or maybe something else that mattered...Look forward to you reply.

well the short answer is that we don't do much accuracy testing anymore.

but when someone makes a claim we have not tested yet (or something reasonably close), we would go out and do more testing.

we have been doing recoil, and efficiency tests.

in the break in tests, the FPS does show the efficiency, because we never changed a setting or the reg on the gun. if the FPS went up, the gun was shooting more efficiently.

Again, thank you for your thoughtful answer. You and your Punkworks group are real asset to the paintball community and the sport, we are all lucky to have your ear, interest and efforts. I look forward to more discussions with you and your team in the future. I am a scientist myself and have access to some recourses, I may contact you for some advice on ideas and methodology. Nice discussing accuracy with you, we will discuss something else soon.

Thank all of you at Punkworks for you explanations regarding accuracy in paint guns...I have a question,, if all the barrels have the same accuracy and all the markers have the same accuray, why do you continue to do accuracy test? If consistant FPS makes no difference, why then do you test for it report it and show SD like it means something? Why was FPS and SD only thing you showed on your G6R break-in test? Seems you might have been better off showing efficiency or recoil test? Or maybe something else that mattered...Look forward to you reply.

well the short answer is that we don't do much accuracy testing anymore.

but when someone makes a claim we have not tested yet (or something reasonably close), we would go out and do more testing.

we have been doing recoil, and efficiency tests.

in the break in tests, the FPS does show the efficiency, because we never changed a setting or the reg on the gun. if the FPS went up, the gun was shooting more efficiently.

Again, thank you for your thoughtful answer. You and your Punkworks group are real asset to the paintball community and the sport, we are all lucky to have your ear, interest and efforts. I look forward to more discussions with you and your team in the future. I am a scientist myself and have access to some recourses, I may contact you for some advice on ideas and methodology. Nice discussing accuracy with you, we will discuss something else soon.

thats great to hear, stick around the forums, we always have something brewing around here!

The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

Certain markers are more precise than others but are still just as accurate. accuracy is the shooter's responsibility. Here is an image of an example of difference between accuracy and precision. http://withfriendshi...ion-picture.png

while left and right curves of paintballs only occurs from different barrels and imperfections of paint, different markers are more/less consistent than others. Poor consistencies cause paintballs to fly slightly shorter or farther because the balls leave at different speeds and, therefore, travel different distances.

other than that, different paintball guns have identical precision when they use identical paint, at identical temperatures, through identical barrels, with identical air sources, at identical velocity settings.

the only exception to this is shooting multiple shots in a row, which recoil and recharge rate has an effect on precision.

FPS and SD was shown in the g6r break in test to see if there was a significant change in the performance as the gun had more cycles on it, the g6r test had absolutely nothing to do with accuracy. efficiency tests have been done and beat to death there is no point. punkworks did attempt to do one "recoil" test and the results if i remember right came out to there is so little difference it doesn't matter and the complex muscles in your hand adapt to those minute changes that "recoil or kick" really are non noticeable.

gordon or bryce feel free to correct me on this one, this is only off my memory from when the tests first came out.

We did some kick testing with acceleromters. The problem was that we couldn't find a way to correlate the data we were collecting to perceived kick levels. We need more data for that. We have a test in mind.

Again, thank you for your thoughtful answer. You and your Punkworks group are real asset to the paintball community and the sport, we are all lucky to have your ear, interest and efforts. I look forward to more discussions with you and your team in the future. I am a scientist myself and have access to some recourses, I may contact you for some advice on ideas and methodology. Nice discussing accuracy with you, we will discuss something else soon.

Feel free to contact us - we're always willing to help other people do tests. In fact, part of the goal of PunkWorks was to get to a point where we wouldn't have to do any tests - just get the ball rolling and the community as a whole could crowd-source better work than we could produce.

Certain markers are more precise than others but are still just as accurate. accuracy is the shooter's responsibility. Here is an image of an example of difference between accuracy and precision. http://withfriendshi...ion-picture.png