Trouble logging in?We were forced to invalidate all account passwords. You will have to reset your password to login. If you have trouble resetting your password, please send us a message with as much helpful information as possible, such as your username and any email addresses you may have used to register. Whatever you do, please do not create a new account. That is not the right solution, and it is against our forum rules to own multiple accounts.

Yeah, watching his tortured soul deal with his inner conflicts in Zero is certainly making me further realise the weight behind some of the things he said (mostly to Shirou) in Stay Night. Stuff like him being revolted at Kiritsugu for being able to easily shape himself into good or evil according to the requirements of each situation... and especially stuff like this:

Spoiler:

He genuinely tried his hardest to live the path of a good man, but ultimately has to settle for evil in order to feel alive, and even when he does, he still wishes he could have been born with the ability to find happiness in good deeds rather than evil ones, thus envying those, like Shirou, that can.

He genuinely tried his hardest to live the path of a good man, but ultimately has to settle for evil in order to feel alive, and even when he does, he still wishes he could have been born with the ability to find happiness in good deeds rather than evil ones, thus envying those, like Shirou, that can.

This is exactly what elevates Kotomine Kirei from the random supervillain without capacity of goodness. His conflict, his self-awareness, his distaste at his own condition, yet at the same time, he could no longer deny the satisfaction that brought to him.

Small wonder why Gilgamesh finds him so fascinating. He's a really rare one.

__________________

"Who would understand you after I die? Who else would march forward by your side?"

Small wonder why Gilgamesh finds him so fascinating. He's a really rare one.

Indeed. A character evil to the core fully aware of the difference between good and evil and who wishes he could be good... you don't see that very often. I've always found Kotomine fascinating, but the tragic nature of his inner conflict is only fully hitting me now thanks to Fate/Zero.

Indeed. A character evil to the core fully aware of the difference between good and evil and who wishes he could be good... you don't see that very often. I've always found Kotomine fascinating, but the tragic nature of his inner conflict is only fully hitting me now thanks to Fate/Zero.

He's a rare treasure only the King can keep. Us, mongrels, should be privileged to catch a glimpse to his journey. On an unrelated note, it always amused me how Gil marked his spoon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanon

Best type-moon villain ever.

Easily. Then again FSN seems to build then deconstruct the idea of heroism in the routes. It does the same about the "villain" role.

__________________

"Who would understand you after I die? Who else would march forward by your side?"

That reminds me. We never see Tohsaka Aoi in F/SN so I'm guessing she dies too. I wonder how? She's not a normal target or near the battles. So maybe:
1. Kiritsugu targets her to get at Tokiomi.
2. Kotomine targets her to get at Tokiomi.
3. She dies through simple bad luck.
4. She intentionally heads into a danger zone for some reason.

In the OP it shows Irisviel oozing blackish liquid. Then I suddenly remembered: Kiritsugu, Kotomine, and Gil were hit with Grail mud. Kotomine and Gil knew the Grail was corrupted and could ooze curse mud.

IIRC, Ilya was used to bring out cursed Grail mud in Fate route. She was an imperfect grail activation because the Servants weren't all dead. Saber and Gil never really died in the Fourth War.

Adding it up and I'm seeing something like: Kiritsugu gets forced into a corner by Kotomine and Gil. Irisviel activates as an incomplete Grail to back him up and suddenly: curse mud and chaos everywhere.

One thing that doesn't fit in is: Saber didn't understand the true nature of the Grail. That's weird. How were Gil, Kiritsugu, and Kotomine close enough to be hit with Irisviel mud but Saber too far away to know the Grail is corrupted?

That reminds me. We never see Tohsaka Aoi in F/SN so I'm guessing she dies too. I wonder how? She's not a normal target or near the battles. So maybe:
1. Kiritsugu targets her to get at Tokiomi.
2. Kotomine targets her to get at Tokiomi.
3. She dies through simple bad luck.
4. She intentionally heads into a danger zone for some reason.

I don't remember if the game ever explained that. She could have died of natural causes after the war, so who knows.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grey

In the OP it shows Irisviel oozing blackish liquid. Then I suddenly remembered: Kiritsugu, Kotomine, and Gil were hit with Grail mud. Kotomine and Gil knew the Grail was corrupted and could ooze curse mud.

IIRC, Ilya was used to bring out cursed Grail mud in Fate route. She was an imperfect grail activation because the Servants weren't all dead. Saber and Gil never really died in the Fourth War.

Adding it up and I'm seeing something like: Kiritsugu gets forced into a corner by Kotomine and Gil. Irisviel activates as an incomplete Grail to back him up and suddenly: curse mud and chaos everywhere.

One thing that doesn't fit in is: Saber didn't understand the true nature of the Grail. That's weird. How were Gil, Kiritsugu, and Kotomine close enough to be hit with Irisviel mud but Saber too far away to know the Grail is corrupted?

I am really surprised they put that in the OP. I can understand them being in the muddy water but to show that... it hurts to watch!

Saber not remembering and how Iri activates... we will have to wait and see. Saber could not remember because of a unique Command Seal usage or something. Iri could activate by accident, not being able to contain the Servants. She is a lot older and is getting weaker as the war progresses.

IIRC, Ilya was used to bring out cursed Grail mud in Fate route. She was an imperfect grail activation because the Servants weren't all dead. Saber and Gil never really died in the Fourth War.

Adding it up and I'm seeing something like: Kiritsugu gets forced into a corner by Kotomine and Gil. Irisviel activates as an incomplete Grail to back him up and suddenly: curse mud and chaos everywhere.

The grail is (atleast since the third HGW) always corrupted with this evil mud. It doesn't really have to do with missing dead servants or something like this but with Ahriman/Angra Mainyu.

Actually, "the mud" is simply in a different form in HF, as in: the shadow.
The corruption of Angra Manyu basically is even more stronger due to Sakura's state being much closer to full assimilation in HF compared to the other routes.

The mud itself is the very essence of the content of the grail, aka all evil of the world. Therefore, it is an inherent part of the grail/great grail, and by extention within Sakura when she is in her dark form.
This is even more evident when Shirou uses Rule Breaker to cut the "contract" between her and Avenger: she is literally purged from that... "thing", instead of simply reverting to her "normal colors". Her body was basically engulfed and corroded by the shadow, which is the essence of the grail.

No, the mud is a result of the summoning. In HF there is no mud. But... this is Type-Moon so there really are no rules.

Ah yeah, you're right. There was this thing with the two grails in HF which I didn't remember correctly anymore. Just read it up again on TM wiki. Now I really want to know what exactly happens near the end of this war. But I won't read the LNs until the anime isn't finished.
About the novels by the way: I heard some rumors after the pre-screening of those two episodes in Japan that Urobochi considered letting them get an US release. Don't know any details about that and what the publisher is thinking, but I would really appreciate it if the LNs were buyable in english language.

Yeah, I look forward to seeing what Urobuchi does. I read here that they've been making small changes from the novel too. Like with Rin's adventure and Ryuunosuke's death. So that makes things even more interesting.

About the novels by the way: I heard some rumors after the pre-screening of those two episodes in Japan that Urobochi considered letting them get an US release. Don't know any details about that and what the publisher is thinking, but I would really appreciate it if the LNs were buyable in english language.

It was Sakuracon in Seattle, not Japan, where he said that. From what I read about the interview, they (he and one of the guys with him, not sure who he was exactly) said that they wouldn't allow it in the US for two reasons. One, they thought the US market for this sort of thing was non-existent, and two they didn't want to release the prequel when the original wasn't released.

They no longer believe number one to be true after visiting a Barnes and Noble and seeing how many manga and light novels there were (I guess they were expecting it to be just one of those spinning racks you sometimes find comics on, but instead found an entire section for them). And they're rethinking number two because of how much fan fervor there is from the anime. I think he even alluded to maybe trying to get FSN published (likely the Realta Nua version, if I had to hazard a likely guess) so the entire story was available.

Until you realize that Ilya's Berserker can move at a speed of sound and his attack is strong enough to crush people's skulls like tofu with only a tip of his swords grazing (at the speed of sound) pass their heads. :P

__________________

Fate/Zero: This was the tale of a man who, more than anyone else, believed in his ideals, and was driven to despair by them.

Madoka: This was the tale of magical girls whose wishes are pure and by them are driven to despair.