New Phone Project (MiniMoko) : Which functionalities ?

New Phone Project (MiniMoko) : Which functionalities ?

Hi,

As you might have read, Always Innovating (A.I.), is opened to think
about a collaboration between them and us (Openmoko community) to
build a phone based on their MiniBook.

This device is a MID, without phone capabilities (except VoIP). So the
idea is to build something together on that basis.
I don't want AT ALL to shortcut GTA04 project, which is vital for
everyone, so the main idea would be to improve a bit the MiniBook,
generating a "lite" version of the GTA04. By "lite", I suggest not to
overload the bill & motherboard with extra features that GTA04 will
bring.

More, The MiniBook have to stay an A.I. product, this mean, it must be
linkable to the others as it does today.

There's nothing much to improve, nothing to remove, just adding GSM/3G
chip. Nikolaus Schaller pointed the OPTION GTM501, which is a brilliant
little chip ! And if we use the same one, the porting of
distros/software will be easier from one machine to another.

So, the first question is : What to add for this project being
interresting ? Those will be minimal functions (forget Wimax, 4G,
coffe machines or color printer ...).

Second question : Debian is able to run on such a device, but does
developpers of other distributions can tell if it would be possible to
port their on it ?

Third question : On the basis we have a 'paper' version of the phone,
is there anyone able to give a hand to AI for the integration of new
components on the board or do we let AI do the major part of the job ?
(this way, we only would be 'consultants' for them).

Re: New Phone Project (MiniMoko) : Which functionalities ?

As you might have read, Always Innovating (A.I.), is opened to think
about a collaboration between them and us (Openmoko community) to
build a phone based on their MiniBook.

This device is a MID, without phone capabilities (except VoIP). So the
idea is to build something together on that basis.
I don't want AT ALL to shortcut GTA04 project, which is vital for
everyone, so the main idea would be to improve a bit the MiniBook,
generating a "lite" version of the GTA04. By "lite", I suggest not to
overload the bill & motherboard with extra features that GTA04 will
bring.

More, The MiniBook have to stay an A.I. product, this mean, it must be
linkable to the others as it does today.

There's nothing much to improve, nothing to remove, just adding GSM/3G
chip. Nikolaus Schaller pointed the OPTION GTM501, which is a brilliant
little chip ! And if we use the same one, the porting of
distros/software will be easier from one machine to another.

So, the first question is : What to add for this project being
interresting ? Those will be minimal functions (forget Wimax, 4G,
coffe machines or color printer ...).

Second question : Debian is able to run on such a device, but does
developpers of other distributions can tell if it would be possible to
port their on it ?

Third question : On the basis we have a 'paper' version of the phone,
is there anyone able to give a hand to AI for the integration of new
components on the board or do we let AI do the major part of the job ?
(this way, we only would be 'consultants' for them).

Thanks for your interest.

Thomas.

I forgot to mention that it would be AWESOME to have some words in this
idea from Sean M.P. !

Re: New Phone Project (MiniMoko) : Which functionalities ?

On 6 October 2010 13:41, Thomas HOCEDEZ <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> As you might have read, Always Innovating (A.I.), is opened to think about a
> collaboration between them and us (Openmoko community) to build a phone
> based on their MiniBook.

> 3-dimensional accelerometer
> One 1500 mAh battery
> Bi-color silver/black case
> 64mm x 106mm x 9.3mm
> Secured attachment of the MID into a Touch Book Table
>
> There's nothing much to improve, nothing to remove, just adding GSM/3G chip.
> Nikolaus Schaller pointed the OPTION GTM501, which is a brilliant little
> chip ! And if we use the same one, the porting of distros/software will be
> easier from one machine to another.
>
> So, the first question is : What to add for this project being interresting
> ? Those will be minimal functions (forget Wimax, 4G, coffe machines or
> color printer ...).

Re: New Phone Project (MiniMoko) : Which functionalities ?

On 6 October 2010 13:41, Thomas HOCEDEZ <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> As you might have read, Always Innovating (A.I.), is opened to think about a
> collaboration between them and us (Openmoko community) to build a phone
> based on their MiniBook.

> 3-dimensional accelerometer
> One 1500 mAh battery
> Bi-color silver/black case
> 64mm x 106mm x 9.3mm
> Secured attachment of the MID into a Touch Book Table
>
> There's nothing much to improve, nothing to remove, just adding GSM/3G chip.
> Nikolaus Schaller pointed the OPTION GTM501, which is a brilliant little
> chip ! And if we use the same one, the porting of distros/software will be
> easier from one machine to another.
>
> So, the first question is : What to add for this project being interresting
> ? Those will be minimal functions (forget Wimax, 4G, coffe machines or
> color printer ...).

Re: New Phone Project (MiniMoko) : Which functionalities ?

Thomas HOCEDEZ <[hidden email]> writes:
> There's nothing much to improve, nothing to remove, just adding GSM/3G
> chip. Nikolaus Schaller pointed the OPTION GTM501, which is a
> brilliant little chip ! And if we use the same one, the porting of
> distros/software will be easier from one machine to another.

Re: New Phone Project (MiniMoko) : Which functionalities ?

On 10/6/10, Thomas HOCEDEZ <[hidden email]> wrote:
> So, the first question is : What to add for this project being
> interresting ? Those will be minimal functions (forget Wimax, 4G, coffe
> machines or color printer ...).
As for me I just want Voice Calls/SMS and thats all.

Even gprs/3G not important, because I can attach separate dongle
inside smartbook itself.

Similar about GPS. Quality of FR's GPS was much worse than in separate
devices, GPS inside MID might be even worse than in FR, implement nice
GPS signal in MID could be very hard task. I'll prefer use separate
GPS dongle.

> Second question : Debian is able to run on such a device, but does
> developpers of other distributions can tell if it would be possible to
> port their on it ?
MID is very similar to n900, we can say that SHR "already" supports
it, similar for all others distros which supports BeagleBoard.
Touchbook now supported by many OS'es. So it is a question which
distros have FSO support.

Andoid also could be a option, especially if AI's "multi-OS" support works nice.

For these to run well in a phone you need at least 480x800. The
Freerunner's 480x640 is definitly too small for most web browsing.

If I go one step further in size, I'm talking about tablets:

From personal experience with a SmartQ7 (now sadly broken), I attest
the following: 480x800 is *not* enough for displaying a more complex
document properly (eg, a PDF with readable text and pleasently
displayed), you need a bigger screensize.

So when you consider such small resolutions... it's definitely not for me.

Re: New Phone Project (MiniMoko) : Which functionalities ?

On 10/6/10, Timo Juhani Lindfors <[hidden email]> wrote:
> "Maksim 'max_posedon' Melnikau" <[hidden email]> writes:
>> Similar about GPS. Quality of FR's GPS was much worse than in separate
>
> What do you mean by quality? Just TTFF? Together with rtklib you can
> get great precision.
Sorry, I don't have skills in GPS, I just see that FR have a problem
with getting fix, and expect even more problems with gps(and gsm) in
device, which wasn't designed to have nice wireless compatibility.
Having lower GSM signal level isn't a problem - usually its very nice
in cities. But gps in such conditions(in cities) can just become
useless.

One more note,I'm looking at "MiniMoko" just as *part* of full SmartBook.
I really love this device in complex, its nice when I can have *same
rootfs* in laptop, in phone, in tablet, in mobile tablet device. So,
when people say that MiniMoko have small screen - I don't care, I
would attach it in "SmartTablet" and have big screen. When I'll want
keyboard - I'll attach keyboard and use SmartBook.

This is reason, why (imho) GSM/3G Voice is very important, and GPS is
less important for such device - just because GPS could be attached in
tablet part. GPS is smth that you sometimes want to be "always on" and
this is reason, why I want separate device - to keep battery.

If somebody want use navigation from MiniBook, may be its time for
them look at cell-nav projects once more? (openbmap, opencell and so
on)

Re: New Phone Project (MiniMoko) : Which functionalities ?

Le 06/10/2010 14:41, Thomas HOCEDEZ a écrit :
> Hi,
>
> As you might have read, Always Innovating (A.I.), is opened to think
> about a collaboration between them and us (Openmoko community) to build
> a phone based on their MiniBook.

IMHO, this is probably the best news since a (too) long time !
It's a really GREAT idea !

Re: New Phone Project (MiniMoko) : Which functionalities ?

As you might have read, Always Innovating (A.I.), is opened to
think
about a collaboration between them and us (Openmoko community) to
build a phone based on their MiniBook.

This device is a MID, without phone capabilities (except VoIP). So
the
idea is to build something together on that basis.
I don't want AT ALL to shortcut GTA04 project, which is vital for
everyone, so the main idea would be to improve a bit the MiniBook,
generating a "lite" version of the GTA04. By "lite", I suggest not
to
overload the bill & motherboard with extra features that GTA04
will
bring.

More, The MiniBook have to stay an A.I. product, this mean, it
must be
linkable to the others as it does today.

There's nothing much to improve, nothing to remove, just adding
GSM/3G
chip. Nikolaus Schaller pointed the OPTION GTM501, which is a
brilliant
little chip ! And if we use the same one, the porting of
distros/software will be easier from one machine to another.

So, the first question is : What to add for this project being
interresting ? Those will be minimal functions (forget Wimax, 4G,
coffe machines or color printer ...).

Second question : Debian is able to run on such a device, but does
developpers of other distributions can tell if it would be
possible to
port their on it ?

Third question : On the basis we have a 'paper' version of the
phone,
is there anyone able to give a hand to AI for the integration of
new
components on the board or do we let AI do the major part of the
job ?
(this way, we only would be 'consultants' for them).

GPS(I highly use it outdoors), 3G, 5-7 mpx camera(It would be nice
if you always have camera with you) on back, buttons for
increase/decrease volume. Better screen resolution is less
important, but I think 800x480 now is standard for such device.

Re: New Phone Project (MiniMoko) : Which functionalities ?

> Thomas HOCEDEZ<[hidden email]> writes:
>
>> There's nothing much to improve, nothing to remove, just adding GSM/3G
>> chip. Nikolaus Schaller pointed the OPTION GTM501, which is a
>> brilliant little chip ! And if we use the same one, the porting of
>> distros/software will be easier from one machine to another.
>>
> I read http://www.option.com/en/products/products/modules/gtm501/specifications/#start> that promises "Fully documented APIs".
>
> Do you have access to these documents?
>
>
> ____________________________
>

This is the chip used for the GTA04, but I'm not working on it. I can
ask the ones involved in the project if you want.
(or find Dr Nikolaus Schaller on this ML)

Re: New Phone Project (MiniMoko) : Which functionalities ?

> On 10/6/10, Thomas HOCEDEZ<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> So, the first question is : What to add for this project being
>> interresting ? Those will be minimal functions (forget Wimax, 4G, coffe
>> machines or color printer ...).
>>
> As for me I just want Voice Calls/SMS and thats all.
>
> Even gprs/3G not important, because I can attach separate dongle
> inside smartbook itself.
>
> Similar about GPS. Quality of FR's GPS was much worse than in separate
> devices, GPS inside MID might be even worse than in FR, implement nice
> GPS signal in MID could be very hard task. I'll prefer use separate
> GPS dongle.
>
>

--> So you wan the ability to plug some dongles on it ...?

>> Second question : Debian is able to run on such a device, but does
>> developpers of other distributions can tell if it would be possible to
>> port their on it ?
>>
> MID is very similar to n900, we can say that SHR "already" supports
> it, similar for all others distros which supports BeagleBoard.
> Touchbook now supported by many OS'es. So it is a question which
> distros have FSO support.
>
> Andoid also could be a option, especially if AI's "multi-OS" support works nice.
>

Re: New Phone Project (MiniMoko) : Which functionalities ?

On 10/7/10, Thomas HOCEDEZ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Similar about GPS. Quality of FR's GPS was much worse than in separate
>> devices, GPS inside MID might be even worse than in FR, implement nice
>> GPS signal in MID could be very hard task. I'll prefer use separate
>> GPS dongle.
>>
> So you wan the ability to plug some dongles on it ...?

I might be was misunderstood, I see on MiniBook as *part of*
Smartbook, and Smartbook already have a lot of space inside[1] where I
can I attach usb dongles, I don't want attach anything in MiniBook.
MiniBook for me, just should be able make calls. All other staff can
be attached to Smartbook tablet part.

Re: New Phone Project (MiniMoko) : Which functionalities ?

> Hi,
>
> As you might have read, Always Innovating (A.I.), is opened to think
> about a collaboration between them and us (Openmoko community) to build
> a phone based on their MiniBook.
>
> This device is a MID, without phone capabilities (except VoIP). So the
> idea is to build something together on that basis.
> I don't want AT ALL to shortcut GTA04 project, which is vital for
> everyone, so the main idea would be to improve a bit the MiniBook,
> generating a "lite" version of the GTA04. By "lite", I suggest not to
> overload the bill & motherboard with extra features that GTA04 will bring.
>
> More, The MiniBook have to stay an A.I. product, this mean, it must be
> linkable to the others as it does today.
>
> For information, MiniBook has already impressive specs :
>
> * TI <http://www.ti.com> cortex-A8 with 3D and video acceleration
> * 512MB (RAM) + 256MB (NAND) Memory
> * Main storage: 8GB microSD card
> * 480x320 3.5" capacitive touchscreen
> * 30fps VGA front webcam
> * Wifi 802.11 b/g/n, Bluetooth class 2.1
> * Video output HDMI HD
> * Two high-quality stereo speakers
> * Internal microphone
> * Headphone jack
> * 3-dimensional accelerometer
> * One 1500 mAh battery
> * Bi-color silver/black case
> * 64mm x 106mm x 9.3mm
> * Secured attachment of the MID into a Touch Book Table
>
> There's nothing much to improve, nothing to remove, just adding GSM/3G
> chip. Nikolaus Schaller pointed the OPTION GTM501, which is a brilliant
> little chip ! And if we use the same one, the porting of
> distros/software will be easier from one machine to another.
>
> So, the first question is : What to add for this project being
> interresting ? Those will be minimal functions (forget Wimax, 4G, coffe
> machines or color printer ...).

GPS - I wouldn't buy without it. It's just too useful for navigation.

3 axis magnetometer - from recent experience it is sometimes very useful to
know which way you're facing as well as where you are. 3 axis accel, gyro and
a pressure sensor would be nice but less important.

Daylight readable screen - again from recent experience in a sunny
environment. A transreflective screen, or one from PixelQi, would be better as
they would cut down on the power needed for backlighting in bright
environments. An ambient light sensor would be good to automate the backlight
level.

Better screen resolution - at least 640x480. It really does make the screen
more legible, and significantly broadens the number of apps that can be used
without gui porting.

USB host mode

Standard connectors for USB host/otg/device and charging. These could be in
place of the mini-HDMI and coax power connectors.

Given what's on the 40 pin connector an option might be to have a dockable
module that can go either on the end of the MiniBook or inside the SmartBook.
That would enable everything but the screen changes without changing the
existing MiniBook design, and seems similar to the DualScreen module in design
philosophy.

> Second question : Debian is able to run on such a device, but does
> developpers of other distributions can tell if it would be possible to
> port their on it ?

If debian can run on it there should be no problem porting to other distros.
Similarities to the beagleboard and n900 may mean other distros can already
work with it.

> Third question : On the basis we have a 'paper' version of the phone, is
> there anyone able to give a hand to AI for the integration of new
> components on the board or do we let AI do the major part of the job ?
> (this way, we only would be 'consultants' for them).

That probably depends on what they decide to do. On the hardware side they
should be more than capable of implementing anything suggested above. Pick the
right components and support may already be present either in the mainstream
kernel or other open drivers. See the FR Navigation Board[1] for some
examples, and n900 sensor support in the mainstream kernel for others.

Well SSH over Bluetooth personal area network works just fine, but
indeed I'd also like USB port for charging and connecting other
devices (host mode)

2010/10/6 Maksim 'max_posedon' Melnikau <[hidden email]>:
> Sorry, I don't have skills in GPS, I just see that FR have a problem
> with getting fix

It doesn't have a problem getting fix hardware-wise, probably just the
software you use is not similar in features to eg. separately sold
navigators. Which means that you have it always getting a fix starting
without any data, where it takes similar time (or less) to most
separate GPS devices. Basically the GPS hw on FreeRunner is quite
good.

I don't know what's the status of saving the GPS data and re-uploading
those when turned on. Is it implemented in some version of FSO/gpsd or
other software.