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Truth About After-Life

Bible Truth About The After-Life

There are many doctrines today that proclaim various different teachings about the after-life. Some say that we go to heaven or hell when we die. Others say we go to a “waiting place” or purgatory when we die where we can still work our way up to heaven. Some even say that we can gain salvation after death, causing many to sin in this life and await a “second chance” when they are dead. While many of these doctrines ease the minds of men, how can anyone know which one is true? After all, they can’t all be right. For this reason, we encourage you to consider the entire testimony recorded in the holy scriptures. Remember, God’s word is like a two-edged sword, and is sometimes hard to take in.

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.” ~ Ecclesiastes 9:5

“Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.“~ Ecclesiastes 9:10

We will refer to these verses again later in this article. This page will examine scripture and what it has to say about the life of “Man”, and what to expect in death. Though there are many doctrines and assumptions about life after death in the Christian world today, we are warned by the Prophet Isaiah:

“To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.” ~ Isaiah 8:20

For this reason, it is necessary to diligently study the testimony found throughout the bible in it’s entirety that gives us the truth on this subject. If we are to understand clearly how everything works in the after-life, we first have to understand the make-up of man, created by God. According to the bible, man is made up of three key components- Body, Soul and Spirit:

“And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” ~1 Thessalonians 5:23

“For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.” ~ Hebrews 4:12

So we can all agree and establish that man is made up of these three things, but what does that mean? What is the difference between body, soul and spirit? They all must play a role, or represent something specific, but how can we know? Again, looking to scripture as a whole, we can see what these things represent in us. Below we will research what scripture has to say about each component of man.

BODY

The Old Testament uses the word “Basar” in Hebrew meaning “flesh” or “body”. The New Testament uses the greek words “Soma” meaning “body”, and “Sarx” meaning “flesh”. According to Genesis, we were formed out of the earth from dust, and God breathed life into us and man became a living soul. We are also advised in the bible that after death, the body returns to the earth:

We can deduce that this speaks of our body in the flesh that returns to the earth after death, but are there other types of “body” that we should know about? When studying biblical “Resurrection”, this has to do with the rising of the body back to life in some form. When looking to the bible- it documents two types of “Resurrection of the dead”- the first can be found in the book of John Chapter 11, with the raising of Lazarus from the dead- not into a glorified body, but rather into the same mortal body he had before. In other words, Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, but Lazarus would again die someday. A second type of “Resurrection of the dead” found in the bible indicates being raised to an enhanced “Spiritual body”. Let’s examine 1 Corinthians 15:39-54, where Paul gives some extensive insight into the different types of “Body” that exist:

“All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead.It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. …... Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, (NOTE: This can carry two meanings. First this could mean that if God has a special purpose for one of his servants, he could assign to him a “Spiritual body” upon death, so that he does not “sleep” in order to fulfill God’s purpose- whatever that might be. This would explain the appearance of Moses and Elijah with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration, or the “taking-up” of Enoch so he did not die. The second meaning could be referring to the saints that remain living at the end of the age that are alive in the flesh body when Jesus returns- regardless, the dead and the living both will be “changed” or receive the immortal body promised to us by Christ all at the same time. This is tremendous insight into the spirit world) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (NOTE: This verse you should mark, as it reveals to us when the return of Christ will be- “At the last trump.” Notice in the book of Revelation, the sounding of the seven trumpets)

So you can see, we have resurrection into the “mortal body” like in the case of Lazarus, and we have resurrection into the “spiritual body” at the last trumpet. The difference in these two types of bodies is one of the quality of the body. As you read the beginning of the verse, you will see the many different kinds of bodies, celestial, terrestrial, flesh, and you get the point.

There are six instances of actual resurrection of the dead recorded in the Bible prior to Jesus being risen from the dead: the widow’s son from Zarephath (I Kings 17:17-23); the Shunammite’s son (II Kings 4:17-37); the widow’s son from Nain (Luke 7:11-16); the daughter of Jairus (Matt. 9:18-25; Mark 5:22-42; Luke 8:41-55); Lazarus (John 11:1-45); and the saints raised in Jerusalem when Jesus died on the cross (Matt. 27:50-53). However, although they all preceded Jesus, He is called the firstborn from the dead (Col. 1:18; Rev. 1:5) and the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep (I Cor. 15:20). This is because he is the only human ever to be brought back to life and given an immortal body. This won’t occur again until the resurrection of the saints at the last trumpet (I Cor. 15:50-54).

Let’s now clarify what we’ve learned about the component referred to as “body.” Body can refer to the natural body/flesh made up of the elements of this world, or could also be a spiritual body not of this world. Angels are examples of beings that posess a spiritual body. The body that Christians seek, is the immortal body that Christ received upon his resurrection that does not die. The immortal body lives forever and never dies. Upon death of the fleshly body, it returns to the dust of the earth and to the elements from which it came. This is why it is said, “Ashes to ashes, dust to dust, earth to earth.” Now let’s explore the meaning of Spirit.

SPIRIT

The human spirit is the non-physical part of man. It comes from God and returns to God or a place called Sheol after death. We will learn more of this place later on this page. It is the human counterpart to the Holy Spirit- or the “mind of God” which is the teacher, comforter etc. Spirit has to do with our breath, life and essence. The verse below gives us some indication about how the “spirit of man” and the “spirit of God” aka Holy Spirit functions:

“But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ. ~ 1 Corinthians 2:9-16

You can see here that the “Spirit” of man, has to do with his knowledge and thinking: “For the man knoweth the things of man, save the spirit of man which is in him”- and the Spirit of God or Holy Spirit- searches the deep things of God and represents the mind of God. When we as Christ’s believers receive God’s “Holy Spirit”, he teaches us and reveals to us things of the mind of God. We can compare spirit with the terms “mind” or “heart”. It is referred to in the Scriptures in several places as the “mind” (Deu. 30:1; I Chr. 22:7; Psa. 26:2; 73:21) or “heart” (Gen. 6:5; Job 17:4; Dan. 2:30; Mark 7:21; Heb. 4:12) figuratively. “Spirit” comes from the Hebrew word “Ruach”and the Greek word “Pneuma”. These words can also mean “breath” or “wind,” things that like the spirit, can be felt but not seen (John 3:8). When the body dies, the bible tells us that the spirit then returns to God who gave it to us:

“Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.” ~ Ecclesiastes 12:7

“Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.” ~ Matthew 27:50

“When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.” ~ John 19:30

You can see, that in these examples, they aren’t yielding up their “souls”, rather they are yielding up the spirit, which goes back to God who gave it in the first place. There is no mention of the soul leaving the body, rather it is the “spirit” portion of our make up that returns to the Father/Sheol. The spirit, or the breath of God as mentioned in Genesis is necessary for life to be possible. Without the spirit, the body is dead:

“For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.” ~ James 2:26

This verse is clear, that the body without the spirit is dead, and both are necessary for life as the spirit through interaction with our physical brain becomes our mind and heart. Only when these two components are united, is “soul” established. Without a living “body” (either flesh/mortal or spiritual) for the “spirit” to interact with, according to the bible we are dead- or in a state of sleep or unconsciousness as we know it. As you read further on this page you will see a huge amount of scripture that explains the different “states” of death further. For simplicity, we can relate to death using the example of a computer that doesn’t have software. Without software to tell it what to do, it is dead and doesn’t function. The “spirit” can be compared to the software, and the computer can be compared to the “body” whether it be a mortal body, or a spiritual body. Spirit and body need to be united with each other to create life. In the example below, we can see that in the end, God will reunite our spirit with either a mortal body or the immortal glorified body so that we can arise to life. Also please note, that in certain instances in scripture, the dead experience a form of consciousness that can’t be conclusively known or understood by the living, which we will discuss later in this page. Now let’s look at another example of Jesus raising someone from the dead:

“And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.” ~ Luke 8:55

So again here you can see another example from Jesus- it wasn’t her soul that returned to her body, rather her “spirit came again”, and was reunited with her body to create life. We can conclude that “Spirit” is the key component to life, in that it comes from God, and the body can’t live without it. Now let’s examine the meaning of “Soul.”

SOUL

It appears throughout scripture, that the “soul” is the combination of the Body and the Spirit, when they are joined together. The soul could be characterized as the personality, nature, disposition etc. that is created when spirit and body are joined together. According to scripture, man doesn’t “have” a soul, rather man “IS” a soul:

“And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.” ~ Genesis 2:7

“All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils“ ~ Job 27:3

“The burden of the word of the Lord for Israel, saith the Lord, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.” ~ Zechariah 12:1

You see here- God formed the flesh from the earth, then God provided the spirit via the “breath of life”, and man “became” a living soul- in other words, the living man “IS” a living soul. To explain further, you can’t separate the soul from the man, because the living man is the soul. There are many teachings today that indicate that the soul lives on after the death of the body, yet as you will see further down on this page, the soul dies along with the body, leaving only the spirit which returns to God, or a place known in the bible as Sheol. You can also see that in Zechariah, God formed the “spirit of man within him” not the soul. To summarize: When God puts a spirit within the flesh of a person, they become a living soul. When a person dies, that spirit is taken back by God, and because the spirit and the body have been severed, the soul also experiences death.

“Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.” ~ Ecclesiastes 12:7

“Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.” ~ Psalm 104:29

Below, we will list some verses that explain where the bible indicates that the “Soul” does die, so that you can see that the spirit remains and returns to God or Sheol, but the soul and the fleshly body experience death.

“Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.” ~ Ezekiel 18:4

“The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.” ~Ezekiel 18:20

“And will ye pollute me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to my people that hear your lies?” ~ Ezekiel 1:19

“And they took it on that day, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein he utterly destroyed that day, according to all that he had done to Lachish.” ~ Joshua 10:35

“And they smote all the souls that were therein with the edge of the sword, utterly destroying them: there was not any left to breathe: and he burnt Hazor with fire.” ~ Joshua 11:11

“For what is the hope of the hypocrite, though he hath gained, when God taketh away his soul?” ~ Job 27:8

“All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.” ~Psalms 22:9

“He made a way to his anger; he spared not their soul from death, but gave their life over to the pestilence.” ~ Psalms 78:50

“Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.” ~ 1 Peter 3:20 (Indicates that the remainder of the souls on the earth during the flood perished or died)

“And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.” ~ Revelation 16:3

These texts reveal- “Soul” is represented in the unity of “Body & Spirit”. Without either one of these components, the soul dies. Without “Spirit”, both body and soul will die. Without Body, Soul is dead and Spirit is returned to God via Sheol. Consciousness as we know it is tied to the “Soul”, the uniting of a body (whether natural or spiritual), and spirit. A spirit without a body is “sleeping” or at rest because of the fact it has no body or brain to interact with, and the bible has many references to death as a state of sleeping or “rest”. This rest takes place in a place called Sheol. When we die- our soul remains in a state of death until our bodies are resurrected, transformed and reunited with our spirit in the end of the age. Irenaeus of Lyons, and early Christian writer also explains this biblical concept of body, soul and spirit, and teaches what it means to “walk in the spirit.” His writings come from 185-190AD, and Irenaeus was a Bishop in Lyons France. He grew up listening to the Bishop Polycarp, who was discipled directly by John the Apostle:

“…..there are three things out of which, as I have shown, the complete man is composed-flesh, soul, and spirit. One of these does indeed preserve and fashion [the man]-this is the spirit; while as to another it is united and formed-that is the flesh; then [comes]that which is between these two-that is the soul, which sometimes indeed, when it follows the spirit, is raised up by it, but sometimes it sympathizes with the flesh, and falls into carnal lusts. Those then, as many as they be, who have not that which saves and forms [us] into life [eternal], shall be, and shall be called, [mere] flesh and blood; for these are they who have not the Spirit of God in themselves. Wherefore men of this stamp are spoken of by the Lord as “dead; “for, says He, “Let the dead bury their dead,” because they have not the Spirit which quickens man.” ~ Irenaeus of Lyons- Book V, Chapter IX. Verse 1.

Are We Conscious in Death?

As we explore a massive amount of scripture, it seems the consensus according to the majority of God’s word in the bible is that death is an “unconscious” state of being. It is also known in the bible as “rest” or “sleeping”. There are however a few key sources that indicate cases of consciousness in death, which we will discuss later on in this page. The righteous consistently are shown in a state of unconsciousness, peace and rest in death, while the unrighteous dead are shown to have a form of consciousness in that they experience pain and torment. We can get a glimpse into the unconscious state of death beginning in the book of Job 3:11-19:

“Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly? Why did the knees prevent me? or why the breasts that I should suck? For now should I have lain still and been quiet, I should have slept: then had I been at rest, With kings and counsellors of the earth, which build desolate places for themselves; Or with princes that had gold, who filled their houses with silver: Or as an hidden untimely birth I had not been; as infants which never saw light. There the wicked cease from troubling; and there the weary be at rest. There the prisoners rest together; they hear not the voice of the oppressor. The small and great are there; and the servant is free from his master.” ~ Job 3:11-19

Job was a righteous man of God. Here, Job is wondering why he was brought into this world. He was suffering and figured- the sleep that is found when the spirit is not united with the body is a nice quiet place. In this place, the wicked “cease from troubling”, and the weary “be at rest”- showing that there is no interaction between the wicked and the righteous. The text also indicates “They hear not the voice of the oppressor”, in other words- again there is no interaction between the oppressed and the oppressor. There is no decisions to be made, no persecution, rather all of the righteous whose spirits have returned to the father are at a state of rest. According to this text, both wicked and righteous, and both small and great are in this place together. Job 14:10-14 reads:

“But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up: So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.” ~ Job 14:10-14

Here you can see, Job is saying he will remain at rest until the appointed time- when as he puts it: “my change come”. In other words, he is referring to the time when we are changed and our spirit is united with our new immortal bodies at the last trumpet. In this scripture reference, Job also indicates “till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.” Job is even viewing the grave as a good place to be while God’s wrath comes upon the earth. He prefers rising after God’s wrath is completed. Notice he isn’t just speaking of himself, but of “man” in general. This word of Job is prophetic and forgotten. But this also indicates that death is a place of sleep, and they will not awake or be raised out of their sleep until that “change” comes- the receiving of a new body whether it be mortal unto death, or immortal unto everlasting life. Let’s look at Job 19:25-27:

“For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.” ~ Job 19:25-27

Here again Job speaks of the resurrection in the end when we will all be risen and see God in our transformed bodies in the “latter day”, or at the end of the age. Notice- “in my flesh shall I see God”- in other words, the spirit reunites with a body in order for consciousness as we know it to come into being- to see, hear, touch, feel, taste, etc. Another indication that there is a state of unconsciousness after death is in Ecclesiastes 9:2-5, where he mentions “the living know that they shall die, but the dead know not any thing”:

“All things come alike to all: there is one event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as is the good, so is the sinner; and he that sweareth, as he that feareth an oath. This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead. For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing,neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.” ~ Ecclesiastes 9:2-5

A KEY INDICATOR- that there is no work to be done in death, and that there is an unconscious state that exists in death until the Resurrection at then end of the age, comes from Ecclesiastes 9:10:

“Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.”~ Ecclesiastes 9:10

So you can see, work, device, knowledge and wisdom all require interaction with “body”. In death, according to this verse all of these things cease, and this scripture reference warns us to do everything with all our might while we are alive in the flesh. This does suggest that salvation is to be realized during life, not death. Even in the biblical cases of consciousness after death that we will discuss later on this page, there is no indication of salvation after death, but rather there is a clear message that salvation must be attained in life on this earth. Bishop Clement, a bishop in Rome ordained by Apostle Peter, also had something significant to say on this topic which can be found in early Christian writings:

“For after that we have departed out of the world, we can no more make confession there, or repent any more.” ~ 2 Clement 8:3

Let’s investigate further by learning about this “place of the dead” Sheol.

What Is Sheol?

Sheol in the original Hebrew bible represents the place of the dead, and there is a large amount of scripture that describes what it is, where it is, what it’s like, etc. It is also referred to in scripture as Hades, Hell, the Pit, the Grave, and Dust. Because of the large amount of scripture involved, we will just list the characteristics along with the bible verses for your own study. Then we will take a look at what the Book of Enoch has to say about Sheol.

God also has the power to save the pious from Sheol if He so wishes (Psalms 16:10, 59:16)

When someone is revived, it is described as ascending from Sheol, or being lifted up from it (1 Samuel 2:6; Job 7:9; Psalms 30:4; Isaiah 14:11,15)

Others may have the power to lift someone from Sheol (although this is referred to in scripture as forbidden, sin and an abomination to God), in the case that Samuel was called by the witch of Endor (1 Samuel 28)

In general, Sheol does not give up her inhabitants, as they seem to be held captive with ropes (2 Samuel 22:6; Psalms 18:6)

The Book of Enoch

While the majority of the bible indicates no consciousness in death, there are three sources that do indicate some form of consciousness in certain cases. These can be found in the Book of Enoch, in Jesus’ parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus, and in Revelation’s mention of the martyrs under the altar. The Book of Enoch gives us some very valuable insight into Sheol. Remember, that the Book of Enoch was widely available to the early Christians, as Jude of the bible refers to this book and the prophecies of Enoch in Jude Chapter 1. According to the Book of Enoch, there are four separate chambers of Sheol:

“And thence I went to another place, and he mountain [and] of hard rock. And there was in it four hollow places, deep and wide and very smooth. How smooth are the hollow places and deep and dark to look at. Then Raphael answered, one of the holy angels who was with me, and said unto me: ‘These hollow places have been created for this very purpose, that the spirits of the souls of the dead should assemble therein, yea that all the souls of the children of men should assemble here. And these places have been made to receive them till the day of their judgement and till their appointed period [till the period appointed], till the great judgement (comes) upon them.’ I saw (the spirit of) a dead man making suit, and his voice went forth to heaven and made suit. And I asked Raphael the angel who was with me, and I said unto him: ‘This spirit which maketh suit, whose is it, whose voice goeth forth and maketh suit to heaven?’ And he answered me saying: ‘This is the spirit which went forth from Abel, whom his brother Cain slew, and he makes his suit against him till his seed is destroyed from the face of the earth, and his seed is annihilated from amongst the seed of men.’ Then I asked regarding it, and regarding all the hollow places: ‘Why is one separated from the other?’ And he answered me and said unto me: ‘These three have been made that the spirits of the dead might be separated. And such a division has been make (for) the spirits of the righteous, in which there is the bright spring of water. And such has been made for sinners when they die and are buried in the earth and judgement has not been executed on them in their lifetime. Here their spirits shall be set apart in this great pain till the great day of judgement and punishment and torment of those who curse for ever and retribution for their spirits. There He shall bind them for ever. And such a division has been made for the spirits of those who make their suit, who make disclosures concerning their destruction, when they were slain in the days of the sinners. Such has been made for the spirits of men who were not righteous but sinners, who were complete in transgression, and of the transgressors they shall be companions: but their spirits shall not be slain in the day of judgement nor shall they be raised from thence.’ Then I blessed the Lord of glory and said: ‘Blessed be my Lord, the Lord of righteousness, who ruleth for ever.’ ~ Enoch 22:1-14

Enoch indicates 4 distinct and separated chambers, so that the “dead may be separated”:

Chamber 1– Reserved for the Righteous spirits of souls of men, where also there is a bright spring of water.

Chamber 2– Reserved for sinners when they die and judgment has not been executed upon them in their lifetime. This place is referred to as a place of great pain, and torment for the spirit.

Chamber 3– Reserved for spirits who make their suit, who make disclosures concerning their destruction when they were murdered in the day of sinners. These are those that have been wrongfully murdered.

Chamber 4– Reserved for men who were not righteous, but sinners who were complete in transgressions and of the transgressors they shall be companions. These will remain where they are, and will not even rise at judgment day in the end.

The angels through Enoch revealed a rare glimpse into the inner workings of Sheol. Here we can see in some cases, consciousness, but to what extent we can’t know. Chamber 2 refers to pain and torment of the spirits there, meaning that even with the limited to non-existent consciousness, there must be some level of pain and discomfort there. One can only know exactly what this means if they actually go there. Chamber 3 is the most convincing case of consciousness, where the dead that have been murdered are claiming suit against those that murdered them. Again, to what level of consciousness, it remains unknown. Chambers 1 and 4, reveal no indication of consciousness, although if I had my choice, I think I’d pick Chamber 1. According to the book of Enoch, these spirits are bound to their respective chamber, and are not free to move between the different chambers of Sheol. Jesus also gave us some insight into the afterlife, with his parable of Lazarus and the rich man.

Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man

“There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house:For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.” ~ Luke 16:19-31

There are several things that we can conclude from Jesus’ parable here.

The place of Lazarus is referred to as “Abraham’s Bosom”, and sounds like a very peaceful place of rest.

Lazarus doesn’t speak, only Abraham addresses the rich man. This indicates the state of “rest” of Chamber 1.

The rich man was in a place of torment and heat. This indicates some form of consciousness similar to Enoch’s Chamber 2, but not one that I’d like to be a part of.

These places were separated by a gulf, and they were not permitted to go from one place to the other, or vice versa. They remain separate.

The rich man was bound to his place, and though he seemed to be in a state of repentance, it didn’t matter. He remained where he was and Lazarus remained where he was.

Abraham’s message to the rich man regarding sending a warning to his family- is that if they won’t listen to Moses and the prophets (Old Testament), then they probably won’t heed the word of a dead man that is raised to life (which would later be Jesus).

The message of Moses & the prophets, and the message of Jesus are one and the same- repent and obey God.

This description in Jesus parable is strikingly similar to the description of Sheol’s chamber 1 and chamber 2 in the Book of Enoch. This reveals to us our potential future, should we die before the return of Christ. The only chamber that seems to consistently indicate there is no consciousness, is the Chamber of the Righteous. This parable in no way indicates that one can attain salvation after death, rather the rich man is stuck where he is in pain and torment. It does however indicate that his family would have to come to salvation during their lifetime on the earth.

The “Martyrs Under The Altar”

In Revelation, according the the fifth seal, there is an indication of a form of consciousness in the martyrs that are under the alter. Let’s read what Revelation had to say:

“And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.” ~ Revelation 6:9-11

This was a vision given to the Apostle John and we must keep in mind that it was a vision. However, this description of those murdered for the testimony of Christ bares a striking similarity to Enoch’s chamber 3 which holds those that were murdered and declare suit against their murderers. That is exactly what these martyrs are engaged in doing in this text. They ask “how long Lord before you avenge our blood”, which is a declaration of suit. This does indicate a form of consciousness within this chamber. There is a mention that John saw the “souls” of these, which is inconsistent with the entire bible’s meaning of soul. According to the vast majority of texts in the bible, it is the spirit that enters into Sheol, however the spirit is unseen by the human eye. Remember it is felt, but not seen. We can assume due to the overwhelming amount of scripture referring to “spirits in Sheol”, that these martyrs were revealed to John as souls in the vision, so that he could see them and understand. Please note this is the only mention of spirits in Sheol as “souls” in scripture, while a vast amount of scripture makes clear it is the spirit that resides there.

Some interesting additional bible verses about Sheol:

“As the cloud fades and vanishes, so those who go down to Sheol do not come up.” ~ Job 7:9

“They spend their days in prosperity, and in peace they go down to Sheol” ~ Job 21:13

“Who can live and never see death? Who can escape the power of Sheol?”Psalms 89:48

This last verse from Isaiah indicates that we all go down to the Pit/Sheol when we die, yet those in Sheol can’t hope for the faithfulness of those that are are still alive. This indicates that there is no hope in Sheol, and is also a possible indicator of unconsciousness there. Let’s now examine the case of Jesus on the cross with the two criminals, and the topic of “Paradise.”

Paradise

There is one more point we must make- and that is regarding the saying of Jesus when he was hanging on the cross next to the two criminals on either side of him. He mentioned to the one criminal as it is written in the NKJV of the bible:

“And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” ~ Luke 23:43

This verse has led many to believe that when believers die, they immediately go to paradise, or heaven. When we look at the entire testimony of the bible, a very different story is told- as when Jesus died, he did not go to heaven, rather he “descended”, to speak to the “spirits in prison” (which we will explain later on this page), then Christ rose from the dead, and then he ascended to his father in heaven so that he would “fill all things.”

“Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)“ ~ Ephesians 4:8-10

So then what does this verse in Luke 23 mean? To find the answer, we have to go back to the original Greek text. In the original Greek text, there is no punctuation. The punctuation that you see in all of today’s translations was inserted by translators and isn’t a part of the original text- and as you know punctuation can totally distort the meaning of any sentence. According to the Greek with no punctuation, it should read:

“And Jesus said to him “Assuredly I say to you today you will be with Me in Paradise.” ~ Luke 23:43

Do you see the difference? Jesus wasn’t telling him that this same day they would be together in paradise, rather Jesus was telling him a very different message- to make clear the effects of punctuation, let’s move the comma- “Assuredly I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise.” Do you see the completely different meaning when comparing the original text in Greek with the translations derived from it. Of course the Greek has no punctuation in the original text, and because punctuation was inserted, a major deception has transpired. Knowing from scripture that Jesus didn’t go straight to the Father in heaven, we can see that Jesus was making a promise to this man for a future date, and based on the remainder of scripture we can assume this man would go to Sheol to rest, until the time when we all rise to meet Jesus in the air at the end of the age.

Additional Bible Texts

There are many other references in the bible concerning this topic, and we’d like to share with you a few more relevant pieces of scripture:

“The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.” ~ Psalm 115:17 (Note- again this indicates the unconsciousness of death)

“Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.” ~ Psalm 146:3-4– (Note- This clearly indicates unconsciousness as thoughts cease to exist during that time period)

“For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand.” ~ Acts 2:34– (Note- Speaking of King David, this indicates he did not “ascend into the heavens” like Jesus did, therefore showing us that we don’t go to heaven either when we die.)

“And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.” ~ Acts 7:59-60 (Note- Notice even though Stephen saw into heaven, he didn’t go there, rather he “fell asleep”)

“But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.” Daniel 12:13– (Note- Even Daniel who God loved was appointed to “rest” in the unconscious until the “end of the days” when we all rise. It is obvious that Daniel is not “working” in death, rather at rest.)

“And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” ~ Daniel 12:2 – Again revealing the “awakening” / resurrection at the end of days.

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” ~ John 5:28-29– Jesus also tells us what Daniel had already told us

Jesus “Preached to the Spirits In Prison”

Many doctrines site the following verse as evidence that salvation can be received after death:

“He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.”1 Peter 3:19-20

Many Christian groups have used this to support a “salvation after death” doctrine. However, when looking closely at scripture and the history of the spirit world, a different story is revealed. To summarize quickly- When God created man, he assigned angels to be “Watchers” over man, yet many of these Watcher Angels lusted after human women because they were beautiful. They came down to earth and took them as wives and mated with them in disobedience to God’s rules, making God very angry. Their offspring were “Giants” that were exceedingly evil and they devoured man. This was the reason that God sent the flood in Noah’s time, as he was disgusted with what creation had become. The result, was that the dead spirits of the exceedingly evil giant offspring of Watcher Angels and women who were killed in the flood, were bound to the earth as “evil spirits” and “demons”. They were hybrid and wicked spirits because angels and woman weren’t created to mate. The Watcher Angels were bound in chains in what is called “The Deep” or the “Abyss” due to their blatant disobedience to God. So in the time of Noah, the widespread death on the earth created evil spirits and demons that roam the earth to this day, and fallen watcher angels that are bound in chains in prison. Please note: These Watcher Angels, demons and evil spirits are not the same as Satan and the other fallen angels. To briefly clarify- Satan and his fallen angels rule over this earth. Demons and evil spirits are bound to roam this earth, and the Watcher angels are chained in the Abyss in prison. This will be explained in detail soon on this website. Let’s look at some references to these disobedient Watcher Angels:

“And the angels who did not keep their own position, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains in deepest darkness for the judgment of the great Day.” ~ Jude 1:6

“For indeed God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down in chains of darkness into the low regions and delivered them to be kept for the judgment of torment.” ~ 2 Peter 2:4

We can also see references to these things in the Book of Enoch:

“And all the others together with them took unto themselves wives, and each chose for himself one, and they began to go in unto them and to defile themselves with them . . . And they 3 became pregnant, and they bare great giants, whose height was three thousand ells: Who consumed 4 all the acquisitions of men. And when men could no longer sustain them, the giants turned against 5 them and devoured mankind. And they began to sin against birds, and beasts, and reptiles, and 6 fish, and to devour one another’s flesh, and drink the blood. Then the earth laid accusation against the lawless ones.” ~ Enoch 7:1

“And the Lord said unto Michael: ‘Go, bind Semjaza and his associates who have united themselves with women so as to have defiled themselves with them in all their uncleanness. And when their sons have slain one another, and they have seen the destruction of their beloved ones, bind them fast for seventy generations in the valleys of the earth, till the day of their judgement and of their consummation, till the judgement that is for ever and ever is consummated. In those days they shall be led off to the abyss of fire: and to the torment and the prison in which they shall be confined for ever” ~ Enoch 10:11-14

So you can see, when Jesus was preaching to the spirits from “Noah’s time” that were in “prison”, these weren’t human beings. Rather these were fallen Watcher angels that were bound in chains in prison. Notice that Jesus didn’t speak to the spirits from the time of Moses, the Judges, King David and the kings, The prophets etc though all these had also died. Rather he specifically is mentioned as speaking to the spirits in prison from the time of Noah. Note that Jesus didn’t preach to these Angels while he was alive in the flesh and body, rather when he was in spirit after he had died so that he could fill all things. This discounts the doctrines that ministers of today are able to minister to any being in the spiritual realm while in the flesh of this life. There is not a single case found in scripture where the original Apostles interacted with the spirits of the dead. Please also understand, the fallen angels of Satan, the evil spirits, and demons of this world are fully aware of the Abyss and it’s misery. We can see this in the example where Jesus cast out many demons in the book of Luke:

“Then they sailed to the country of the Gadarenes,which is opposite Galilee. And when He stepped out on the land, there met Him a certain man from the city who had demons for a long time. And he wore no clothes,nor did he live in a house but in the tombs. When he saw Jesus, he cried out, fell down before Him, and with a loud voice said, “What have I to do with You, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg You, do not torment me!” For He had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. For it had often seized him, and he was kept under guard, bound with chains and shackles; and he broke the bonds and was driven by the demon into the wilderness.Jesus asked him, saying, “What is your name?” And he said, “Legion,” because many demons had entered him. And they begged Him that He would not command them to go out into the abyss. Now a herd of many swine was feeding there on the mountain. So they begged Him that He would permit them to enter them. And He permitted them. Then the demons went out of the man and entered the swine, and the herd ran violently down the steep place into the lake and drowned.” ~ Luke 8:26-33

You can see here that the demons were terrified of being cast into the Abyss, indicating it is probably a most unpleasant prison. We hope that this clears this passage up for you and we encourage you to study further. We will soon post a page dedicated to Angels & Demons, explaining the history of the spirit world according to scripture.

Below is an interesting documentary on the Fallen Angels/Nephilim:

Baptism for the Dead?

There are several Christian churches that believe that the dead are able to receive baptism in Sheol, and in turn can receive salvation. The text that is used to justify this doctrine can be found in 1 Corinthians 15:

“Otherwise, what will they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all? Why then are they baptized for the dead? And why do we stand in jeopardy every hour? I affirm, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. If, in the manner of men, I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantage is it to me? If the dead do not rise, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die!”Do not be deceived: “Evil company corrupts good habits.” Awake to righteousness, and do not sin; for some do not have the knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.” ~ 1 Corinthians 15:29-34

This text is used in several doctrines to substantiate calling up the dead for the purpose of baptising them. After studying this entire chapter in context, you will see a very different meaning. In context, Paul is scolding the people because some of the Corinthians no longer believed in the resurrection of the dead. He is saying to them- if you don’t believe in resurrection of the dead, than you must not believe that Christ resurrected and your faith must be empty. Then he goes on to say- Why are we baptized for the dead if the dead not rise at all? Why then are they baptized for the dead. In other words, why are these Christians baptized in the place of Christians that have perished and died, if they don’t even believe in the resurrection. What’s the point, is what he is saying. This entire chapter is Paul scolding the people because of their lack of faith that we will live again and be resurrected just as Christ did. He goes on to say that- hey if we don’t believe in the resurrection, why don’t we just eat and drink and then we die- in other words, just be merry, do whatever, sin it up and then we die. This is nothing more than Paul scolding the Corinthians for thier disbelief in resurrection, and it doesn’t at all indicate or substantiate calling up the dead for any reason. We encourage you to study this chapter in detail so that you can see the truth of Paul’s entire message here. Also please understand, that the act of calling up the dead or “necromancy”, is strictly forbidden throughout the bible. In addition, consider the fact that there isn’t a single case in scripture of any of the original Apostles calling up the dead for any reason.

Gospel Preached to the Dead?

The final text used to justify a salvation doctrine for the dead in Sheol comes from the Apostle Peter:

“For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.” ~ 1 Peter 4:6

While this at first glance seem pretty clean cut and dry, to understand this saying we have to study it closely and in context. Let’s look at the verses leading up to this text:

“Therefore, since Christ suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind, for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin,that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God. For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries. In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you. They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.” ~ 1 Peter 4:1-6

Reading the text in context, we can see that Peter was speaking of the sins that the Gentiles walked in, and that the Gentiles that didn’t receive God’s word would have to give an account to God who is ready to judge the living and the dead. He even lists these sins out- lusts, drunkenness, drinking parties, idolatries, etc. This gives us insight into what Peter is referring to when he says “living” and the “dead”. When examining this text in context, Peter is referring to the Gentiles that walked in sin, as those that were dead because as he indicates “for this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead.” In scripture, those that haven’t accepted Jesus Christ, and actively walk in sin refusing to follow Him are referred to as “dead.”

“Now it happened as they journeyed on the road, that someone said to Him, “Lord, I will follow You wherever You go.” And Jesus said to him, “Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head.” Then He said to another, “Follow Me.” But he said, “Lord, let me first go and bury my father.” Jesus said to him, “Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and preach the kingdom of God.” ~ Luke 9:57-60

Here Jesus indicates that life is found in following Him, and preaching the kingdom of God. He refers to the rest of man as “dead”. Paul also refers to those that are physically living but are dead:

“And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.” ~ Ephesians 2:1-3

“Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)” Ephesians 2:5

Here Paul not only says that they were all dead in their past, but he explains why. It was because of their trespasses and sins, the lusts of their flesh, and the fulfilling the desires of the flesh and the mind that they were dead. They walked in sin before, but became alive through Jesus Christ and they no longer walk in sin.

“Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light. See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, Redeeming the time, because the days are evil. Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.” ~ Ephesians 5:14-17

Here Paul indicates God’s chosen are called to “arise from the dead”, and they then walk as wise, not fools, understanding the will of the Lord. This indicates that it happens in this life, not after death. Paul is speaking to the living Ephesian congregation. In Colossians we read:

“Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;” ~ Colossians 2:12-13

Paul in a letter to Timothy also writes:

“But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.” ~ 1 Timothy 5:6

This clearly points out for us that many that choose to live in pleasure and sin, are “dead while they livith.” There is another reference to the “dead” in Romans:

“Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.” ~ Romans 6:12-13

Here again, we see that living in sin is also known as being dead. There are other references that you can study pertaining to those that are dead in sin, and we encourage you to do so. We hope that you can see that Peter is not speaking of the actual dead in Sheol, but rather he is speaking of the time in the past that the gospel was permitted to come upon the Gentiles who were living in sin. This is why close study of the bible is necessary to understand these sayings. Also taking all scripture of the bible into account, you can better understand the true meaning of this text. Please consider, that none of the original Apostles in scripture ever addresses the actual dead in a sermon or letter. Remember, “living” is tied to soul, the unity of body and spirit. The last phrase of the text says “live according to God in the spirit”. This is referring to those that posess body and spirit on this earth, not the spirits of the dead in Sheol. Even God’s righteous- Job, David, Stephen- are asleep in Sheol, and are not alive. Scripture is consistant that after death, our life doesn’t come again until we are risen at the end of the age according to Jesus, either to everlasting life, or eternal damnation at the judgment.

Conclusion

There are many more examples in the bible referring to death, and we encourage you to diligently study. This should give you a good starting point. Please study God’s word in the bible and consider it’s entire testimony. We can conclude from this study that there are 4 chambers of the dead in Sheol, those that are righteous upon death remain in a state of rest or unconsciousness until they rise at the end of the age to eternal life and an immortal body. Those that die and are unrighteous maintain a form of consciousness in pain and torment until they rise again at the day of judgment. Those that were wrongfully murdered can claim suit in a form of consciousness, against their murderers. There is also a group of spirits of men that have already been judged and will not rise again as they are “complete” in their transgressions/sin. It is the Spirit part of man that is taken into Sheol, while the Body and Soul die. Salvation also must be attained while you are alive, as the state of your Spirit and the location it is sent in Sheol is determined upon the exact moment of your death. The spirits of Sheol are not permitted to move around to different chambers, rather they remain in the chamber they’ve been placed until the end of the age. No work is done in Sheol, rather a waiting for the end of the age when we rise to either eternal life or everlasting damnation. You can see that the scriptures are extremely consistent in their representation of the after-life when you take into account scripture as a whole. It is like a giant puzzle with many pieces, only completed when scripture is examined and closely studied in it’s entirety. Using only a part or piece of scripture to develop an entire doctrine, results in the distortion of the full truth that is available to God’s people through His inspired word.

“Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine?….For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little.” ~ Isaiah 28:9-10

Many deceptions about the after-life have caused an uncountable multitude of people to disobey God in this life with the hope of obeying God and receiving salvation in the after-life. These deceptions are in many cases taught generation after generation, with only a remnant that searches God’s word to see if these teachings are true. We are given one life to live, and then the judgment (According to Apostle Paul). Please do not judge those that follow various afterlife doctrines not taking into account the entire message of the bible, as they believe and speak of what they’ve been told, and these teachings go back hundreds of years. As already mentioned, soon we will post a page to clarify further the “Spirits in Prison”, and we will examine scripture pertaining to Satan, the fallen angels, the angels bound at the abyss, and the difference between an angel and a demon- it is significant. Understanding the spirit world will help us to navigate the natural world for Christ, as we see it for what it truly is. Don’t take my word for it- search the scriptures to see that these things are true. This knowledge is being given out of the grace of God. Pray that he continues to show his wisdom to all of us, and guides us to be his final witnesses on this earth. Remember there are no second chances- please don’t allow salvation to slip away from you. We’ve been given a tremendous gift through Christ- please don’t let it go to waste. For more guidance- please read the “God’s New Covenant”, and “Why Follow the Commandments” pages of this site.

The following is a video interview of Roger Morneau. This man in the 1940’s became a part of a high society satanic cult and was mentored by the satanic high priest himself. After learning many intricate details of Lucifer’s plan for the world, he fled the cult and became a sabbath keeping Christian. This is his testimony and I encourage you to listen. You will see that one of Lucifer’s ultimate deceptions for our time is to get men believe that they have an immortal soul.

“And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment” ~ Hebrews 9:27

“And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.” ~ John 3:13

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17 thoughts on “Truth About After-Life”

You need to address those who have seen and spoken with the dead. It is clear. Some are not fake, but very real. They can see and speak with the dead as clearly as you and I can stand and speak to each other. I have personally experienced confirming evidence of the dead who have attended in a divine service, spoken with a member, returned, and had continuing conversation. This is not heresay. This is not second hand. I tell you that is my personal experience, which was confirmed by my relationship with individuals outside the church from another country and culture. You should not say that once the flesh dies, the soul is no longer active, because it is. You cannot use bible interpretation to discount personal experience.

Also… with regard to your definitions of soul and spirit I have a question. Have you visited the original texts in Hebrew, Greek, Ge-ez, and Samarian(can’t recall at this moment the term for this language)? Not the re-written edited versions in any of the modern bibles today, to confirm your interpretation of the differences in these two words? I have found that due to some loose interpretations, a writer has used one, when they should have used the other.

It is my understanding the “soul” is the eternal living entity, the body is merely a vessel which we need in order to get around on this natural plane (to be replaced by a celestial one when we join God), the spirit is – as you say – the force of reason and understanding which influences the soul. Natural spirit provides natural influence and understanding needed to exist on this earth, to conduct business here, to deal with the elements and everything we need to exist during our “temporary” sojourn here.

The natural spirit separates at natural death. However, rebirth of water of spirit allow for the additional, personal, connected influence of the Holy Spirit which accomplishes several things. It gives the influence, guides us, and assists us in understanding Eternal truths. Secondly, by the power of this spirit our soul shall achieve our ultimate destination, to be joined to the Holy Father in his kingdom.

Jerry, these are all valid questions. To start out, I don’t discount the personal experiences of others, especially since I’ve had my own in this realm. I can confirm that these things happen first hand as well. Over the years, I’ve been visited in dreams 3 different times by people I’ve known to be dead. In one of these cases, a man that I know to be very ungodly came to me and seemed to be enjoying all of the awesomeness of a higher consciousness in the afterlife. I remember being very puzzled at this? I remember thinking- if he can make it and be this great, what’s the point of being good in this life. Upon receiving this understanding recently and searching the scriptures to see that it was true what I had received, everything made more sense. I encourage you to watch the video posted at the bottom of this page- of Roger Morneau, it will provide you with a great bit of insight into the actual workings of what is going on in these vivid cases of seeing the dead. There is a great deception that has engulfed the world for a very long time, and it is fueled by Satan himself. Again I encourage you to watch the video.
As for the bible- it is the true word of God. I’ve read many sources that try to discount it, and I was even raised in the church to think it was obsolete, or an “old word” no longer relevant. I’m telling you the truth when I say, it is very relevant. It speaks of God’s truth, and no “new truth” will contradict it as God does not contradict himself (“My covenant will I not break, nor alter the words that have gone out of my lips” Psalms 89:34) Isaiah warned us “To the law and to the testimony, if they speak not according to this word there is no light in them”, and Paul warned “if anyone brings to you a gospel different than the gospel I have brought you, let him be accursed.” These are warnings, and scripture is god-breathed and relevant for doctrine, correction etc. There have been efforts to deride its relevance, but truth even though it is difficult to digest, will always shine through.
I have tested this using the Hebrew and Greek original texts. Nephesh (OT) and Psuche (NT Greek) are used to represent soul, and Ruach or Neshamah (OT) and Pneuma (NT) are used for the word Spirit. The controversy surrounding this does not take away from the meaning of the original texts. I encourage you to research this too. As for the terms body, soul, and spirit, I’ve only taken testimony from the bible to define these things. The bible does an excellent job of making these clear, as well as it’s explanation of death and Sheol. This is the testimony of the bible, and it is god-breathed to guide us. Some final thoughts and questions for you:

-If the afterlife involves us achieving a higher form of consciousness, and ability to speak to the living and guide them, along with many additional opportunities for salvation- than why obey God in life?

-Why did Christ have to come to die for us, with the purpose to overcome death, if we receive a higher form of consciousness and being after death without a body anyway? According to many doctrines today, death doesn’t sound so bad.

-Why today when someone dies, many say they have gone to a “better place?” If that were the case, why did Jesus die for us so that we can live? What is better, life or death?

-If there is an immortal life for the soul, again, why did Jesus have to die for us?

The answer is, there is no immortal life for the soul. When the spirit is taken back to Sheol, both body and soul die. I’m telling you the truth, death is silence-stillness and rest. It is not life- there is no work done there, God is not praised there, your thoughts cease the very day you enter the grave. These are not my words, but the words of the bible. That being said, the bible also tells us when we will be resurrected- at the last trumpet, on the last day- and we will rise either to everlasting life, or eternal damnation (Per the prophet Daniel, and Jesus himself). We don’t rise until Christ returns. The bible tells a very different story of life and death than what is taught in many denominations of Christianity. Please study these things very closely- even starting with the verses provided on this page. It is of great importance- if you are right, than I have many more chances even after death to find salvation. If the bible is truth, (and it is), than as Paul says – we are given one life to live and then the judgment. Many have been deceived including myself in the past. God’s word is like a two-edged sword, and I’ve felt it myself believe me. I hope this helps Jerry and I hope all is well in China!

What I understand is that, no, you did not encounter the dead. These are evil spirits who were well aqcuainted with the dead and can impersonate them. Whatever evil spirit type it is, they have long lives and supernatural abilities. They KNOW what your loved one looked like, sounded like, acted like, believed in, and experienced. That is why the Bible refers to them as “familiar spirits.” They are spirits that present themselves as someone familiar to you.

You will find that in various cultures, these spirits that impersonate your loved ones will begin to “bless” you or “help” you in return for worshipping them – creating shrines in dedicated parts of homes – and also committing sins that start small and grow big – like going from killing small animals to finally being asked to kill a human or to seriously injure a human.

So, I repeat, it is a lie. You CANNOT communicate with humans who have died. What you ARE communicating with is a FAMILIAR spirit. It is trying to convince you that it is your loved one to gain a foothold. This is why the Bible forbids it. It is trickery by evil spirits that leads to demon worship, and therefore, idolatry.

I first want to address you comments about seeing the dead. I was not relating dream or vision experiences. My close friend in the church daily sees, hears, speaks with, interacts with the dead. They are living souls who exist in the realm of earth, only on a different plane. A lot of people make the mistake of thinking that because you cannot see something, it does not exist. The earth was created in both a physical and on a spiritual plane. They co-exist in the same space. Not everyone can see it, but some are gifted and can. During my years in Michigan I shared many experiences of faith, not one or two, with this friend while they interacted with the souls in eternity (the spiritual plane). Asking questions, receiving answers, confirming with people outside the church.

Let me share one particular experience, but please understand it is only one of many. It is a bit complicated, so please bear with me as I tell it, and I hope the full impact of the evidence is not lost in the details.

On one occasion, several weeks prior to one of our services for the dead, I and another minister had visited the apartment of some Chinese men we had met on the UofM campus in Ann Arbor. We had testified to them of our faith for several hours and they openly asked questions and seemed engaged.

During this time period I had been active in visiting Chinese professors at both the U of Mich campus in Ann Arbor, and the Mich State Univ campus in Lansing. My home congregation was in Hillsdale, and these two campuses were each about 1 1/2 hours from my home, but in different directions. Also during this time our various congregations had their mid-week services on alternating nights in order to more effectively manage the few ministers we had to serve them. Ann Arbor was on Thursday evening. Hillsdale was on Wednesday evening. Our visit to these men was on Tuesday evening.

Since I was not scheduled on Thursday that week, I drove to Lansing and spent the evening with 3 Chinese gentlemen I knew there. The friend who had accompanied me was in service in Ann Arbor that night, and was called on to assist during the service.

During this era, my friend and I reported directly to the Apostle W. Vovak in Detroit regarding any activity we had with the Chinese. I was the leader. We had no middle people. I did not share the details or events of our visits with anyone except the Apostle. He was on a trip to Africa during that week, so no one knew of our visit to these Chinese men. Not even our wives knew where we went, because we felt it important to not share stories with others before sharing it with Vovak. We just felt it was the right thing to do.

On that Thursday, after my visit with our friends in Lansing I called my friend in Ann Arbor at home after he returned from service so that I could share the events of the evening. There were no cell phones then. I had to use a pay phone.

My friend was a bit shaken and excited. He told me that after the service in Ann Arbor that he was approached by our member who sees the dead. He was told that during the service they saw the soul of a Chinese man sitting in a pew during the service. The communication between our friend and the dead is all silent, heart to heart so to speak. They asked the man, “who are you and what are doing here?”

The man replied, “Tuesday night two men from your church visited my countrymen in the home here in Ann Arbor. I was there, heard their conversation, and came tonight to see for myself about this faith.” Our friend asked further, “but how is it that you are here in Ann Arbor? Is this your home?” The man replied, “No. I am professor from the University of Chongqing in China. I was sent here to teach and study on an exchange program. While here I was killed in a car accident. I don’t know why I’m still here, but here I am.”

The man then told our friend, “If what I heard, and am hearing now is true, I want to pursue it further. I want to attend this Service for the departed and experience it myself.” During their communication my minister friend had been called up to the altar to assist in serving. The man then told our friend, “This man who is speaking now is one of the men I saw the other night. Tell him, I am going to accompany him from now until this service for the dead. Ask him to please bring an offering for me.”

Following the service our friend approached him and relayed this message. That is why my minister friend was so nervous, as well as excited. He is a bit of an off-the-wall character, not very conservative in his manner or speech. He told me, Jerry, I’m worried. You know me. I’m worried. If this soul follows me daily, I’m afraid of what I will say and do that may ruin his experience. My advice to my friend was that if this soul is genuinely looking for salvation, they are probably astute enough to know the difference between someone who is a fake, and someone who is sincere and genuine. Don’t worry about how you act. Just be yourself. Your genuine faith will show itself.

He also asked me, but how much should I bring for an offering? I have no idea about these things. I told him I too have no idea, so it doesn’t matter. Bring whatever your heart tells you to bring. Amounts are unimportant.

Already this was a stirring experience for us. You would think the person who spoke to them may have made it up for our benefit, but they did not know about our visit to these men. Also, this story does not end here.

That weekend I had arranged for 3 Chinese men from Lansing to stay with my family in our home in Hillsdale. I would take them to service in Hillsdale on Sunday morning, and then to Jackson for service in the afternoon (which was on the way between Hillsdale and taking them back to the university in Lansing). Service for the departed would be the following weekend.

We had a great time together, the details of their visit is unimportant to the story, except for what happened in Jackson, after the service I conducted there on the way back to Lansing. While shaking hands with the members, Mr. Wu (one of the three) asked me if he could please speak with me alone before we leave. I took him into the sacristy. Naturally the content of both the morning and afternoon services had included references to the departed and how important it was to pray for the dead, and about the opportunity for them to receive the sacraments and to be forgiven in eternity through this service.

Mr Wu asked me, “Jerry, are the things you told us in these services about the dead, and prying for them true.” I told him, “This is the belief of our church, and I believe it.” He then said, “I want to ask you to pray for someone. I and a dear friend of mine were both sent to America from the University of Chongqing in China. I was sent to Lansing, he was sent to Ann Arbor. I have not seen him since we came here almost a year ago. And then I received word that he was killed in a car accident in Ann Arbor. Would you please pray for him?”

I was stunned. We immediately prayed for him there together in the sacristy, but I did not tell him what else I had heard from Ann Arbor. I felt that he had already heard many things which were difficult to understand. I did not want to overwhelm him. Also, you may not be aware, but talk of the dead is very difficult for the Chinese. It unnerves them. I felt it best just to let this serve as an experience for I and my friends, and other believing members.

Our friend who sees the dead confirmed that in the service for the departed in Ann Arbor the next week that this Chinese man returned, and brought others with him. They did not speak. They participated in the service, and were gone at the conclusion of it.

John, as I said. This is only one experience. There are others. This did not happen through dreams, or by some mystical vision in a cloud. It is my personal experience.

John – continuing to read your previous response to me. I don’t understand something you said. I understand the spirit is connected to our body only during life,and separated at death. But you also said there is no soul? I don’t understand that. It is easy to see that the body is merely mortal, and becomes dust again. The spirit goes away. If there is no soul, what is there to resurrect when Christ return? Perhaps you misspoke, Perhaps you mean the soul is sleeping after death until Christ returns. I could understand that as an explanation. God the father, son, and Holy spirit. Created in the image of God as body, soul, and spirit. common concepts. body returns to the earth, spirit is a natural spirit, separated at death. Soul lives on, waits for Christ return in order to be called into heaven “IF” the individual has re-born of water and spirit, as Christ clearly said. No one shall even see the kingdom of heaven unless they are re-born of water and spirit. So, I think we are only apart on what you believe happens with the soul after natural death. Whether it remains “aware” in some way, or if it is “sleeping” until Christ return. So, my question for you would be, “what is it that is called into heaven when Christ returns if not the soul?

Also though, you believe Christ did not visit people/souls from Noah’s time. You believe he visited Angels? That doesn’t make sense to me. Why would he visit Angels? There is no salvation for Angels? they had no soul to begin with, were never given a soul. What message would he have to bring them… “look at me! I was on earth, now I’m dead, and I’m going to save “humans” nah-na-nah-nah…?” sorry, but Lucifer was jealous from the start because God created man to inherit his kingdom, and therefore he fell from heaven is tormenting and tempting us. Why would angels or spirits be granted a visit from the triumphant son-of-God, but not the souls of men. this part of your explanation does not make sense to me. I believe everything Christ did and said had significance for the benefit of only mankind. That was his reason to come and sacrifice his life, to save us. God’s creation for the purpose to inherit the Kingdom of God. The scripture does not say he visited Angels, that is a supposition on your or someone’s part because you choose to believe souls are not alive after natural death. It only says that God visited those who were disobedient in the time of Noah.

I look froward to your response, in particular regarding my personal experience with living souls who had died, in relation to service for the departed.

Thanks Jerry for sharing your experience. I do understand that this woman and you actually sees what you both believe to be souls of the dead. She is not the only one, there are many that say that they see people that are dead. What I am saying, is that those “beings” that are seen are not the souls of the dead. Satan and his fallen angels and demons are working to deceive men into this belief that man has an immortal soul. He gains so much by this deception, in that men not only take life less seriously believing that their soul is immortal, but also men begin to seek “guidance” and enlightenment from these supposed dead souls. Rather men begin to think “I will receive my salvation in death, not life.” The hope of man is turned away from the creator, and towards immortal life for the soul. The bible termed this type of belief and following as “necromancy”, and it was an abomination before God. If you watch the video attached to this page- it will help you to understand what these beings really are- agents of Lucifer to deceive men into this belief. Again, I would never discount anyone’s personal experience, but I’m telling the truth- this is what is being seen and witnessed in many different denominations of Christianity. There are many verses of scripture that warn against familiar spirits- “And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.”- Leviticus 20:6. This is just to name one. The message of the scriptures about death is very consistent, and it doesn’t rely on interpretation. Peter warned us also about scripture and prophecy when he said: “Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.” ~ 2 Peter 1:20, in other words, it means what it says and those that diligently and prayerfully study it will receive knowledge of the truth- “Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine?….For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little.” ~ Isaiah 28:9-10. This is how anyone can attain knowledge and understand doctrine. When knowledge of the truth is given through diligent study of God’s written word, knowledge of all present deceptions is also given. This belief in an immortal soul is a deception.

For the explanation of body, soul and spirit, I can only refer you to the testimony of the scriptures that was shown above. My words don’t really matter, but God’s word in scripture is the authority. The body is made up of flesh from the dust of the earth, and it returns to dust. The spirit (also known in ancient texts as the “breath”), comes from God and is breathed into the body to create “soul”. Only then, is a “living soul” formed. Spirit comes from God, and returns to God via Sheol. “And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.” ~ Genesis 2:7 Living soul is defined in scripture as the uniting of “body” and “Spirit”. Only in this unity is a soul created with personality and intellect. The bible also has many texts that tell you that without “body” or “spirit”, the soul is dead. The soul that sinneth will die. There is a list of texts under the “Soul” section of this page on this. Nothing in scripture- when studied closely, indicates that the soul lives on, as life of a soul requires body and spirit. The idea that we have an immortal soul is mythology from Lucifer himself and it definitely serves his purposes. As for the rebirth of water and spirit, this must happen in life on earth according to scripture. When Christ returns, our “spirit” which is in soul at rest, is called back into an immortal “body”, then creating the unity of a body and spirit, creating an immortal soul. The immortal soul is given to all who believe and obey God and his word. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection, on such the second death has no power. In other words, when our resting spirit is united with not a mortal body, but an immortal body, at that point and only then do we receive an immortal soul. This is the testimony of the scriptures.

As for the testimony on the spirits in prison, to understand this requires a look at scripture as a whole. First looking to the book of Enoch- which according to Jude 1, was a relevant piece of scripture during the time of the first Christians (though removed by catholic influence in the first centuries)- explains the history of the angels during these early times. Angels that were called “Watchers” were tasked by God to watch over man. These angels when they saw women, thought them to be beautiful, and left their proper dwelling and came down and took them as wives, mated with them and created offspring. The offspring were termed to be “giants” that were exceedingly dreadful to the earth. They were even destroying animals and human men. When God saw how dreadful his creation had become, during the time of Noah, he sent the sin flood and wiped this group out. After the sin flood, he bound these disobedient watcher angels in what is called the pit or the abyss, and their offspring that were taken away with the flood- their spirits were cursed to dwell on the earth until the time of judgment roaming the earth as evil spirits and demons. There are two cases confirming this story- First with Jude- “And the angels who did not keep their own position, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains in deepest darkness for the judgment of the great Day.” ~ Jude 1:6, (Jude actually in Jude 1 is directly referencing the book of Enoch) and Peter- “For indeed God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down in chains of darkness into the low regions and delivered them to be kept for the judgment of torment.” ~ 2 Peter 2:4. I ask, given that all of scripture is consistent on the dwelling place of the dead as Sheol- a place of rest, and also about the dwelling place of these fallen watcher angels as a prison, pit, abyss- and that these were bound in the time of Noah- What does the testimony point to? As for Jesus message to them- we can’t know what that is, the scripture says he preached to them- but it says nothing of a message of salvation here. The purpose of the passage was to let the reader know that Jesus filled all things. Also, why wouldn’t he have spoken to those from Moses time, or Joshua, the judges, the kings, the prophets time etc? These had all died. He specifically mentions the spirits in “prison” from the “time of Noah”. The testimony of the bible is not subject to interpretation, it means what it says, and for this reason we have to take the entire testimony into account, including the testimony of Jude, Enoch, and Peter. I’m telling you the truth when I say, I am not making my own interpretation, rather just considering the entire testimony of scripture. On the other hand, assuming as many do that Jesus is “speaking to spirits of the dead to give a message of salvation”- there is a lot of “interpretation” and assumption in that statement without testimony of scripture to back it. To the law and to the testimony- again we are pointed. The scripture is not subject to any private interpretation as Peter warned, for this reason, I implore anyone to simply study the scriptures in their entirety, search them out and see the truth. I will say that those that aren’t willing to diligently study these things, will not see. These are strong deceptions, crafted for these end times to deceive even the elect. I believed in these things myself at one time, but by God’s grace he showed me these things and I was willing to search the scriptures to ensure that this understanding came from Him. “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” ~ 2 Timothy 2:15. It is vital to study. I hope I’ve answered your questions to your satisfaction- Doing the best I can- these are complex topics to discuss- but it is very important to understand today.

Thanks for your interesting reply. I’ve read it several times, and in so doing I decided to begin to research some of the information you presented to support your viewpoint. Realizing that “all” reading, by any human, is subject to interpretation by the reader based on his particular viewpoint, I decided to go through the entire scripture and read everything that was written that included the words “soul” and “spirit.” Fortunately with the internet technology of today that was not as daunting of a task as it would have been 20 years ago.

One of the scriptures you discussed was I Peter 3:19 about which you explained that this is talking about “spirits” not “souls.” And you gave further explanation as to whom you thought this might refer to. You did not, however, also offer I Peter 4:6 in which Peter clearly wrote “For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.” In this passage Peter is clearly referring to the “dead,” no reference to either spirit or soul here. But based on your previous explanations the spirit doesn’t die. You even thought Jesus might have visited “spirits” from the time Noah. He said “Preached also to them who are dead.” If the dead know nothing, are not conscious at all, simply sleeping, then that would have been a fruitless effort to preach to dead who are sleeping, and don’t even know you are talking to them. So, I think this is a point of contention.

I noticed in your online resource that you refer to the teaching of Roger Morneau who was a very popular and high ranking minister for the 7th Day Adventist, so I did some research on Mr. Morneau, and came away feeling his views should be highly suspect. Following his separation from the Catholic Church he had a pretty good run as a well indoctrinated Satan worshipper in an occult group. He also did some writing during this period in which he clearly referred to Satan as his “Master.”

His testimony is that once he realized this group was making a plan to destroy Christianity by destroying the foundation of their beliefs, he left; ultimately becoming 7th Day Adventist because of the importance he placed on which day to celebrate as the Sabbath. I have several problems with Mr. Morneau’s teaching because he is pretty obviously an elitist who thought himself superior to the ordinary Adventist Christian.

In fact, he was well known for his prayers in which he “instructed God” in how to answer the prayer, rather than relying on “God’s will.” This offended many Christians. He, furthermore, felt his prayers superior to others and that they he could pray to have not only someone’s sins forgiven, but that his prayer could actually remove the consequence of their sins, which has absolutely no scriptural support.

So no, I couldn’t possibly consider him someone I could trust as an authority. In fact, it crossed my mind that rather than “leaving the Satanic group” he might have been “sent” to infiltrate otherwise devout Christians and find ways to diminish their faith. After all, if you believe that Christ sacrifice forgives ALL human sin, regardless of whether or not you have chosen to believe, accept, or follow Christ then what value is there for those who do chose to believe, accept, and follow? If you believe that once someone dies they have no hope for salvation, why would you pray for them? So, his teaching seems a good way to encourage Christians to neglect to pray for souls in eternity, thereby robbing many of salvation.

I personally am convinced salvation must come by choosing to believe in Christ and the method of salvation he established, through rebirth of water and spirit. I am also convinced, because I know our God to be a loving and just God, that he would not leave out all those billions who have lived and died across the face of the earth never having heard the name of Jesus Christ, the one and only way to salvation. On islands, in remote mountain regions, in other primitive areas where modern man never set foot until hundreds or thousands of years after these poor souls had lived and died, and their clan had been forgotten.

Ok…. You and I believe the same scripture, although I am sure we do not have the scripture as it was originally written. If you read the book I referred to you I’m sure you cannot help but be convinced by the overwhelming evidence. That said, we both believe we can live our life of faith on this earth based on the scriptures we have available. Is this something we both agree on?

But you believe that once dead, people know nothing, and when Christ returns those who have been reborn will rise to take their place and join him in heaven because the soul is not a separate entity, it is rather a “definition” of the joining of the body and spirit. (By the way in my search of every biblical text containing the words soul and spirit, I never found such a “definition” given in scripture – using both the King James version and the New International version of the bible). If you have it, please give it to me so that I can take a look.)

I believe people are born a combination of natural body, natural spirit, and soul – the soul being the eternal life force that we all “are” vs. “possess.” Furthermore, I believe that this earth is both a natural and spiritual world, and that with natural death our body returns to the earth, the soul continues to live on the spiritual plane/dimension, and the natural spirit is separated from the soul and therefore loses its influence over the soul. I also believe that the soul is a living, cognizant, entity – fully awake, but controlled in a manner that none of us can fully understand or appreciate because none of us has died, gone there, and come back to report on it. This soul is confined to this earthly realm (only on the spiritual plane) until such time as Christ returns and the scripture is fulfilled which says that the dead in Christ will be taken first, and then he will come for those who are still living.

As I ponder these things the question arose in my mind. So what?

If we both believe in God, believe in Jesus Christ, believe that God has chosen us to one day enter his kingdom, what should you and I as living, breathing human beings be concerned about? We should be concerned that when all is said and done, and Christ returns that he will take us, right? Am I missing anything? That’s the goal as I see it.

Ok, let us think about how the different details on which we do not agree affect our reaching that goal, and what we do between now and then.

With regard to what you and I do on a daily basis:

We should live our lives as good human beings, loving our families, be honest in our dealings with everyone whether personally or in business. That has nothing to do with believing in God, or Jesus Christ, or any faith at all. That is just being human.

We should be functioning, participating, hard working members of society, and follow our personal philosophies with regard to how to do that. Again, just human.

Be kind to animals, although I believe they were given by God for our meat and sustenance, so eating them is ok. As I saw on a sign in Canada, “We Canadians love all of God’s creatures, and have a place for them right next to the mashed potatoes and vegetables.” The Chinese also agree with this. They say here, “We eat anything with 4 legs except the table. We eat anything with 2 wings except the airplane.” Ha-ha

As believing Christians, we should do our best to follow the teachings of Christ, although if we make mistakes we expect God is going to forgive us, because Christ said he would. The key word being “mistake,” followed by another key word “repentance.”

If we do these things, how will our different views of life after death affect us?

For me, it means I pay attention to information about people who die, or have died that I find out about and pray for them. I don’t just do that 3 times a year, I do it daily. If they are really still there, as I believe, I’ve done a good thing and no one is hurt by it. I’m not neglecting my own soul’s condition; in fact any person who “sincerely” believes this is making even more of an effort to follow the teachings of Christ during their life because we believe these souls can see and hear us, and may detect insincerity if they sense it. Again, “those who are sincere” benefit from this activity in their faith and life. It helps them to focus because they believe they are helping someone who cannot help themselves. We view it as a responsibility to help others.

If I am wrong, and you are right, then all I’ve done is pray some extra prayers for others. If my prayers are not really helping them, it doesn’t hurt me, or take anything away from my life. Between you and me, I would rather be a person who “wants to help others” toward salvation. Whether that is people I meet on the street, or during my daily life, or whether that is people who have died doesn’t matter to me. The point is to help because “that is what Christ did.” It means that I am tying to “be like Christ” and help others. He raised the dead on a number of occasions. If I cannot raise them here and now, so be it. At least I’m trying to help their future opportunity to enter heaven.

So, at his moment the way I am looking at our conversation is this. I don’t believe you are correct, but I want to continue our very interesting conversation. I continue to study scripture daily, and with the explanations you have given me it opens another perspective in my mind. So, when I read I can be objective and read from both perspectives and find out what gels with me, and what doesn’t.

I have also downloaded the book of Enoch (thank you), and am reading it, keeping in mind that this is an Old Testament Apocrypha book, prior to the life of Jesus Christ. I also realize it wasn’t all written by Enoch, I’ve been reading the technical side of its discovery, loss, and rediscovery, writing in Ethiopian, subsequent translations, and various opinions about the translation errors, things that were left out by some writers, re-added by others, etc. etc. very interesting stuff.

Furthermore, I continue to read Marcus Aurelius (he is a favorite of mine), Lao Zi, Einstein, Jefferson, etc. etc. Because they all have so much to offer us with regard to perspectives on living, family, ethics, politics, etc. etc.

Thanks again for your response Jerry! A couple of things to touch on. The verse in 1 Peter 4:6, can be found in the section on this page entitled “Gospel preached to the dead?”. Under this section above, is outlined a study of scriptures referring to the “dead” in Christ. I encourage you to look up each of the bible verses listed and even look at them in the bible for context. I encourage you to read that section and study it. The message in that verse is not what it seems, especially after viewing it in the light of many other scriptures of the bible. As for the testimony of Roger Morneau- this is no way intended to be an endorsement of the Seventh Day Adventist church. As a matter of fact, this church over recent years has made moves to become a part of the World Council of Churches, and has turned their back on identifying the true antichrist- the catholic church (See Identifying Antichrist page). Regardless of who Mr. Morneau became- and I’m sure you nor I can ever know his character without knowing him personally, his testimony about things that happened in the 1940’s (testimony that was also confirmed by witnisses- by a couple that helped him to come out of this satanic group) and information that was given to him can serve as a glimpse into the workings of Lucifer. I only ask readers to “consider” this testimony. He is not a professed prophet by any means, but he carries a testimony. What is interesting about his testimony, and also his advice for those struggling with “spirit harassment”, is that is all biblical, another thing to consider. To the law and to the testimony.

As for the danger that can be found in these beliefs, they invite men to become involved in mysticism and necromancy. People when exposed to these beliefs can almost develop an appetite to even speak with the dead- which is forbidden practice in the bible. The other danger in this is that it teaches men that salvation can be attained after death- when this is not the case. Even looking at Jesus’ story of Lazarus and the rich man, the rich man was not given salvation, rather he was told that his living brothers have Moses and the Prophets, and if they won’t listen to them, they surely won’t listen to one that is raised from the dead (which would be Jesus himself). This entire parable indicates salvation must come in our life on this earth, not in death. Salvation after death teachings may not be damaging to the faith of some- but I guarantee that it will be responsible for the second death of many souls who believe that they can attain salvation after they die. As for those that lived and never heard the name of Jesus Christ- There are multiple indications in the New Testament that- “they will be judged by their works”. Jesus Christ, the righteous judge carries all wisdom of heaven and earth- and this is something that He in his wisdom will handle righteously. There is also a warning from the early apostles that we should cease from “dead works” or works that are not profitable for anyone including ourselves. This is another thing to consider. Today, people more than ever are seeking out mediums, psychics, and channelors to speak to the “departed dead.” Others don’t even have to go there, they rather consult with mediums in their own churches. Ask yourself- is this something that would please God, when repeatedly in scripture it is condemned. If you could, begin at the top of this page, and research every bible verse that is referenced, and even visit the bible to see context. Interpretation only comes in when we don’t have a full picture- yet the bible gives us the full picture if we seek it out. I too look forward to our exchanges Jerry- stay safe in China and I think it is safe to say that we are praying for each other.

Hi John – after very careful contemplation and prayer, I feel confident to say to you that praying for the salvation of others cannot and should not be construed by anyone as an evil act, or a useless act. Also, it is not the practice of our church to contact or engage mediums or sorcerers, or witches or anything or anyone connected with the occult. Occult activity, spirit or devil worship has nothing to do with our praying for the dead. I stand firmly confident in our belief in praying for the dead, and renew a question to you. How else do those who have lived and died and never known the name of Christ obtain salvation, since salvation is ONLY through Jesus Christ,and only through the rebirth of water and spirit?

Hi Jerry! I do pray that you don’t make this the end of the matter, but that you continue to pray and search the scriptures. This was a difficult teaching when it was shown to me as well. As for mediums in the churches- I do know first hand that there are members in various areas that claim this “gift” of communicating with the dead, as I have had my own dealings in this area- and I do know of many cases first hand where members have sought out these “gifted” members that say they communicate with the dead. These people can almost become famous within their various church circles. The very definition of a “medium” is – A person thought to have the power to communicate with the spirits of the dead or with agents of another world or dimension. Also called psychic. Putting a heavenly spin on this doesn’t change what is being done. This is how Satan operates. This practice is condemned in the scriptures all together, yet it is active in the churches of God- the creator who does not change? Necromancy is defined- The practice of supposedly communicating with the spirits of the dead. There is not one passage of scripture in the NT that says “Now it is ok to communicate with spirits of the dead”. God is longsuffering towards us, but these things will be brought to his justice in the end.

Your last question is one that I’ve received lately from another person. It is difficult for our human mind to fathom that our creator knows all things, that he knows the hearts of men before they are even formed in the womb. Our creator is omnipotent, and a righteous judge, and he doesn’t always share all of his mysteries with us. He does give us tid-bits though. Do you remember when the disciples of Christ saw men preaching in Jesus name yet they didn’t follow Jesus or the disciples. They asked Christ- what of these men that do this? Jesus told them that they would be judged by their works, and if they aren’t against us then they are for us. Also Apostle Paul in the Romans reveals that before Christ- all men were given the opportunity to obey God in some way:

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,” ~ Romans 1:16-22

Paul indicates- that by seeing and witnessing God’s creation- many men did not seek to know God regardless and turned to their own wisdom, and he made things known to them in their generations so that “they are without excuse”. Again, God is a righteous God, and he judges all men righteously. James also indicated that we are judged by what we know, not by what we don’t know. Jesus also said “he who is faithful over little, I will set him over much”. All men have received some form of light from the father- and all men decide if they follow that light as big or little as it is, or walk down their own path of self-wisdom. In the end, it is up to the father and the son to decide these cases. As for salvation- Paul indicates that we are given one life to live, and then the judgment- Hebrews 9:27. Second chance doctrines are not found in the bible. I hope that you continue in prayer and study, and I pray that God brings us all the light that we need for our paths!

Hi John – thanks for your previous input, but I want to focus on my question. Don’t you believe in what Christ said to Nicodemus? If you are not reborn of water and spirit, you will not even see the kingdom of heaven. Also, No man comes unto the father but by me.

Under your interpretation, how are the souls who lived and died and could never know Christ or hear of his teaching be reborn of water and spirit, and how can they come to the father through Christ. This is something that MUST be chosen. If it is just thrown to everyone in the world willy-nilly, then that cheapens Christ sacrifice. It must be done by choice. How shall they choose if they cannot be preached to, and if they cannot receive the sacraments?

These are very good questions- First as far as interpretation, I am taking the bible just for what it says, not what I was taught about what it says. I used to be under the same understanding that you are until I was given light, and I searched out the scriptures. In order to understand this, you have to look at the entire testimony and story line of the bible, and you have to consider the old covenant and the new covenant. The fact of the rebirth of water and spirit is true for us today and was true for all of man after the crucifiction of Christ. Before Christ- the people were under the old covenant. The old covenant to summarize stated that if the people obey God’s commands and his laws, they will be his people and he will be their God. The old covenant was given strictly to the Jewish people, not all of mankind. Because the Jews constantly disobeyed God’s laws- worshipped idols, and desicrated his sabbaths- God through Moses initiated the ceremonial sacrificial law in the tabernacle, where once a year, a sacrifice was offered to atone for the sins of the people. This is how people under the old covenant became “right” with God- and they did this by God’s own instruction. The righteous (those that did their best to obey God), were right with God by obeying him, and through this sacrifical law. This sacrifical law was given in their time as the ordinance for the atonement of sin. The patriarchs- King David, Job, the prophets even in those times are indicated as sleeping until they rise on the last day to take their inheritance. There is no mention of them being reborn out of water and spirit- as their time was before this was offered. Many assumptions are made about this by many churches, but there is no bible record saying that these old testament patriarchs have been or must be reborn in water and spirit. Rather the bible record indicates that they were faithful over what they were given, and will rise to their reward.

Under the new covenant- Jesus bled and died to make a final atonement for sin. For this reason, the living can come to God through the blood of the son out of repentance, become reborn out of water, and then walk free from sin in the spirit through the gift- the holy spirit. The rebirth is more than just baptism, it is becoming a new man- walking in the spirit- choosing no longer to sin- changing our character completely. Under the New Covenant- “God’s law is writtin into our hearts, and we obey it from the heart”. (See God’s New Covenant page for scripture detail) If we decide to continue in sin- according to Apostle Paul we put ourselves back under the law- with the penalty of death. If we are reborn and walk in the spirit of Christ free from sin, we are placed under grace. Approximately 80 million Christians were killed for thier faith during the dark ages inquisition by the Catholic Church. These were Christians that walked according to the ways of Jesus, according to the light they were given, and they too will rise to their reward.

Through close study of the scriptures and history you can see that every man in his generation was given a certain amount of light. Some chose to obey that light, others chose not to. The light of the invitation offered through the blood of Christ is the light that we have access to today. This light requires our obedience after repentence and rebirth. Those that have sought out God over the generations, have found him as Jesus promised (Seek and ye shall find). Those that chose not to use the time in their life wisely, and never sought out God nor were drawn by him, enter into Sheol to await the judgment of their works in the end. Every man that hasn’t known of or accepted Jesus- according to the bible record, are judged by thier works in this life. Some might say that what is presented in the bible record isn’t fair to this one or that one. Because of this feeling, many doctrines (not founded in the bible) have come forth to ease the minds of men. I’m sure men would love to know the fate of men in this situation or that situation, but most of these calls are God’s, not man’s. I say according to the gospel, God is a loving God and he is longsuffering with man, but this will come to an end eventually. Engaging in things that God has clearly forbidden in the bible record because one thinks it “humane” to bring salvation to the dead can be a dangerous path.

These deceptions are some of the oldest in the bible- Satan tempted Eve by saying “you can disobey God, and you will have great knowledge, and you will never die”. Today’s teachings are the same in many churches- “you can disobey the commandments because you are under grace, and when you die you will be enlightened into an immortal soul (you will never die)”. The penalty of adam and eve was death, not immortal life and a higher consciousness. These are the same lies that Satan told in the beginning, changed to meet the “wisdom” of this generation. He has successfully convinced many generations that they never die- rather they live on either going to heaven or hell, or going to purgatory, or realms of the dead, etc. Once one comes under this belief- it is very hard to break free from it. Breaking free from this to the reality that death means death- pushes a soul to become right with God immediately. Anyways, thanks for conversing on this Jerry, I hope I’ve explained it ok. I pray that your path has a ton of light in the future, and I hope all is well!

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