All the Elder Lizard really has going for it is cost effectiveness, which is nice if you're a jungler and don't have much gold going your way. On HA where everyone has insane gold generation pretty much regardless, it's a waste of a slot you could be using for a much more impactful item.

All the Elder Lizard really has going for it is cost effectiveness, which is nice if you're a jungler and don't have much gold going your way. On HA where everyone has insane gold generation pretty much regardless, it's a waste of a slot you could be using for a much more impactful item.

Well Hecarim can reapply Elder Lizard's passive in large area around all the time. Together with Iceborne it can cheaply provide all the offense he needs or can even afford to get with just two items.

Well I'll ask it this way, is there any good reason to not have Jungle items available in ARAM? Any?

My biggest problem with them being in Howling Abyss is the fact they are designed to be jungle items. With the lack of a jungle they actually have little meaning other than being cost efficient items that are cost efficient because they were designed for the jungle. Butcher will have no effect in Howling Abyss since it only affects Monster not Minions. So you are solely picking the item for its cost efficient early stats. I personally feel it needs to be remade or rebalanced if it stays in Howling Abyss. Cost increased and useless stats removed. As is it is just a very odd item to have on Howling Abyss. I'd be fine with them if they were tweaked.

My biggest problem with them being in Howling Abyss is the fact they are designed to be jungle items. With the lack of a jungle they actually have little meaning other than being cost efficient items that are cost efficient because they were designed for the jungle. Butcher will have no effect in Howling Abyss since it only affects Monster not Minions. So you are solely picking the item for its cost efficient early stats. I personally feel it needs to be remade or rebalanced if it stays in Howling Abyss. Cost increased and useless stats removed. As is it is just a very odd item to have on Howling Abyss. I'd be fine with them if they were tweaked.

Is it really a problem that there are items that are cost effective early? They aren't really overpowered any more so IMO their presence in the game makes it better by adding viable options.

Not really. The cost efficiency of the item doesn't take into account Butcher because it's hard to put a cost value on. Using just the base stats of Elder Lizard for example you are getting 2646g worth of stats for a 2000g item not even including the Butcher effect. It was Riots way of solving Junglers falling behind; giving them a really cost efficient item they can buy early on. That's been the problem with the items and why they've gotten a lot of nerfs; not including Butcher they are worth more than what you pay for them. That's also saying on Elder Lizard you aren't adding in the True Damage into the gold value of the item.

Is it really a problem that there are items that are cost effective early? They aren't really overpowered any more so IMO their presence in the game makes it better by adding viable options.

Yes. When you make an item cost efficient for the stats it offers you mark the item as a 'must buy' in many cases. It does the opposite if you are wanting diversity. If you get more stats for buying item A which is cheaper than item B which offers similar stats but costs more you are going to buy item A.

Are they over powered? Not really. It's very marginal. Are they unbalanced? Yes. I'm just saying they need to be balanced for the map.

Right, which is why they shouldn't be given the option to buy worse items that they're only buying because "it's recommended."

I can see an argument for the jungle items being good for quick cheap stats if your team is getting pounded hard and you're way behind, but realistically if you're in bad shape like that buying the quick cheap "it'll help right now" item is only going to put you farther behind in the end, since that's money you just sank into an item that helps you more right now but doesn't help your team much if at all and it will be that much longer before you can buy something that does help the team.

It's encouraging selfish decision-making on a map that is 100% team-oriented. This makes no sense to me.

Right, which is why they shouldn't be given the option to buy worse items that they're only buying because "it's recommended."

I can see an argument for the jungle items being good for quick cheap stats if your team is getting pounded hard and you're way behind, but realistically if you're in bad shape like that buying the quick cheap "it'll help right now" item is only going to put you farther behind in the end, since that's money you just sank into an item that helps you more right now but doesn't help your team much if at all and it will be that much longer before you can buy something that does help the team.

It's encouraging selfish decision-making on a map that is 100% team-oriented. This makes no sense to me.

...right, which is why they shouldn't be given the option to buy worse items that they're -- you didn't actually read my post, did you? :|

Oh, I read it. They still have the option to buy whatever item they have access to in the game. It does not matter if it helps them or you or the man in the moon. It. Is. Their. Choice. You may think they're retarded for choosing the items they choose, but they still get to choose them regardless. If it were up to one person, it would not be a MOBA.

Your argument against giving people worse itemization options is that they already make bad itemization choices with the items they had before?

You realize that just strengthens my point that this can only lead to people building even worse, right?

If they're going to make bad choices, it doesn't matter what items are in the shop. My argument is that what they do with their gold is their right in game, and if they want to make bad decisions, good on them. It wont get them ahead, but they're still allowed to do it. Simply taking items away wont make people make better decisions. That's a 'lesser of two evils' mentality where their decision is still bad, but not as bad as what they might otherwise be able to buy. You don't have to like it, but you have to accept that people, in game, are rarely going to buy what you think they should be buying.

Sadly, there's not much one can do for bad players. Bad in the fact that they are either too ignorant to look up what might be decent for their champion or even their champion's archtype or that they simply play from the recommended list. I'm far from the best player, but even I know when to get a team enhancing item over and item that solely enhances myself, and it really didn't take that much work to learn that.

Because ARAM is so fucking serious and needs a ranked and a pro team.... /sarcasm.

I don't recall saying anything like that. However, trolls can ruin non-serious games by throwing anything resembling a fair game out the window and turning it into a 4v5. That can suck the fun out of things pretty quick.

I don't recall saying anything like that. However, trolls can ruin non-serious games by throwing anything resembling a fair game out the window and turning it into a 4v5. That can suck the fun out of things pretty quick.

I have accepted that. I am, in fact, anticipating it happening again in future.

Thus my reasoning for not having worse items available to exacerbate the issue.

Except that the Jungle items are actually really good items. Ancient golem is only source of tenacity for tanks if they want Ninja Tabi. Elder Lizard is extremely cost effective and awesome for those who can reapply it constantly (Vi, Hecarim, Ezreal etc). Wraith is good when you don't want Tome for whatever reason (team has it already etc) and can't make use of AD from Gunblade or just when you need both CDR and spell vamp for whatever reason.

If your reasoning is that Ancient Golem is worse than Bulwark, then that makes 90%+ of the items in the game bad, because of how absurdly strong Bulwark is when people are grouped all the game.

Except that the Jungle items are actually really good items. Ancient golem is only source of tenacity for tanks if they want Ninja Tabi. Elder Lizard is extremely cost effective and awesome for those who can reapply it constantly (Vi, Hecarim, Ezreal etc). Wraith is good when you don't want Tome for whatever reason (team has it already etc) and can't make use of AD from Gunblade or just when you need both CDR and spell vamp for whatever reason.

If your reasoning is that Ancient Golem is worse than Bulwark, then that makes 90%+ of the items in the game bad, because of how absurdly strong Bulwark is when people are grouped all the game.

Most people only use the supports bulwark aura as their source of MR in a typical game. Sometime they'll have to get another source. But yes Bulwark is hella over powered.