I had a good chat with KingFish on YIM last night, and thought I'd post some excerpts from it. Read and comment, please, all those that care about folding for TR!

Session Start (usacomp2000000:kingfish00000): Thu Aug 03 20:56:41 2006usacomp2000000: it has been a lot different in the last 2-3 monthsusacomp2000000: I don't want to see TR go down the tubesusacomp2000000: the people don't deserve itkingfish00000: well the DC forums has been as stale as a month old loaf of bread tookingfish00000: there's no contestskingfish00000: no pizazzkingfish00000: no excitementkingfish00000: no giveawaysusacomp2000000: hopefully the site (team2630.com) will help with thatkingfish00000: no new angles to intrigue new members and keep the energy level up for existing memberskingfish00000: the team is just out there floating like a ship in the open ocean with no directionusacomp2000000: yeah, it has been slightly stale of latekingfish00000: it needs a visible leader to take the reinskingfish00000: drfish used to be that person but nobody has stepped up to fill his shoesusacomp2000000: it has been along timeusacomp2000000: I just remembered that Leor just moved into a new place, so maybe he has not had as much time to be his usually motivating selfkingfish00000: he's too intermittentkingfish00000: and i don't see him taking a leadership rolekingfish00000: he plays the role of antagonist much betterusacomp2000000: yeah, I didn't mean leadership..just presenceusacomp2000000: him and DG were funkingfish00000: yes they werekingfish00000: but they are a counterpoint to a pointkingfish00000: not the main pointkingfish00000: if you know what i meanusacomp2000000: yeahkingfish00000: try talking to tarxusacomp2000000: idchafee seems to want to help...funding team2630.comkingfish00000: you need someone rolling out the red carpet to new memberskingfish00000: an official welcoming threadkingfish00000: idchafee would be a good choiceusacomp2000000: or something front-page worthykingfish00000: losing front page blurbs was a demoralizing force for the teamusacomp2000000: yeah, it sure waskingfish00000: and that momentum hasn't been regained at allusacomp2000000: the 2thz project has kinda fell face-downusacomp2000000: poor cass is trying, but I don't see him as a leader typekingfish00000: the team really needs invigorationusacomp2000000: but a good example, yeahusacomp2000000: agreedkingfish00000: he is a good support person but not one to take a leadership roleusacomp2000000: so you're leaving because the team is dying?kingfish00000: nousacomp2000000: ah, so it's more like you odn't have that as a motivation to stay?kingfish00000: i have to admit i do like more than my fair share of excitement but i wouldn't say it really is a motivating factor for me switchingkingfish00000: i'd say that is a good synopsiskingfish00000: the team is slowly dying on the vineusacomp2000000: usacomp2000000: never!kingfish00000: and will be takeover fodder for the 'goonsusacomp2000000: see, now this part of the chat would be a good inspirational message to the team kingfish00000: it's not my struggle....hopefully good advice for you to take and run withusacomp2000000: mind if I post some of it? (leaving out the names, and the discussion about the mods)?kingfish00000: i don't mind, i have nothing to hideusacomp2000000: thanks mankingfish00000: anytime sirusacomp2000000: It's people like you that made TR such a great place, and the folding team the community that it was...and hopefully will return to beusacomp2000000: I'll always remember buying my server from you kingfish00000: what equipment was that?kingfish00000: i forgotusacomp2000000: one of your folding nodesusacomp2000000: xp 2400+512mb rAMkingfish00000: ahhhhkingfish00000: i hated selling off the farm after the hurricanekingfish00000: it suckedusacomp2000000: I can imagineusacomp2000000: not much you can do thoughkingfish00000: but in a house without electricity all they were doing was sitting therekingfish00000: it was better to get money out of them and reinvest the money in new nodeskingfish00000: which is what i didkingfish00000: and it paid offkingfish00000: most nodes are much more efficient producersusacomp2000000: so once the community is back up and churning, do you want me to let you know?kingfish00000: i'll know....i'll lurk and post occasionallyusacomp2000000: yay, I'm glad that you're not ditching us completelykingfish00000: it's obvious that you care about what happens, i wish you luck on the endeavorusacomp2000000: TR has a special place in my heartusacomp2000000: I'm not going to liekingfish00000: that's a good thingusacomp2000000: well time to bed for meusacomp2000000: take care mankingfish00000: have a good nightkingfish00000: you tookingfish00000: and good luckusacomp2000000: feel free to look me up anytime kingfish00000: sure thingkingfish00000: samehereusacomp2000000: thanks, I'm hoping that things work out for the bestusacomp2000000: will doSession Close (kingfish00000): Thu Aug 03 22:38:40 2006

Last edited by Usacomp2k3 on Fri Aug 04, 2006 2:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.

The best teams out there have some kind of official backing from the site and are not run entirely by the community. In fact this is probably the strongest DC team where it's just a bunch of guys in the forums doing all the work.

there was a point where TR tried to officially support us, but for a bunch of reasons that's not going on anymore. I don't have a 9-5 job where i can sit around and post, and do things during downtime, so I'm not a reliable candidate for a team leader.

The reality is that it's unlikely that anyone can be expected to be a long term leader without some help from the top.

I was at one time more than a little upset that the TR organization (whoever they are) did not support the team more with a more open and driving approach. Now let me just say here now that I have never emailed anybody in TR about why they don't, or emailed asking for support. As someone who has a business (or two) and has to deal with liability on a daily basis and who carries three million plus in liability insurance, let me surmise that sponsoring a folding team could be a disaster. How would you like to be openly sponsoring a team and have a fortune 500 company send you a letter letting you know that an individual from your sponsored team had installed some crap on their machines and brought down some important servers causing 3 or 4 thousand folks to be out of work for 4 days. And of course they would like you to reimburse them for the damages which are in the neighorhood of 10 million or so, and if you can't you can come on to court and explain your side to a judge.

I am not aware of TR interfering in any folding business, so its just hands off, not hands down.

I try to be here and fold when I can, and help where I can, but I have a life, and folding ain't it...its just a hobby I am willing to spend $400/month on when I have it. Each and every machine, and point you see on the cass side cass owns and pays the electric bill on, and cass supports with software, hardware and peopleware.

Contests and stuff are OK, but someone has to fund that and then it needs to make sense from a business point of view for TR to be involved and really how is adding 100,000 pts/week going to make life better for Damage? I don't go around other sites and see what they do, but most contests among big dogs are just the rich getting richer. Why would I want to win another MB and Proc in a folding contest when I would need 40 to win the contest? You could giveaway a 6300 proc to one of the new folders to join next week in a random drawing, but what are the chances they are going to stay?

I have had a mod or two to get on my nerves here, but they have never followed me to a IM session and continued to give me hell, so when I feel like they don't jive I just leave.

The Terahertz project is confusing to me, because hertz<>hertz so my enterest there waned fast. And at the time there was no database to adjust for, so it really wasn't anyones fault, but now there is a standard database of projectsand processors available so you can actually tell adjusted performance.

I still deal with some of the same folks now... and am still getting something going for TRF around once/month, and somebody new pops up every once in while to donate something, so I don't think we are completely dying on the vine. We just don't have a fair atmosphere, it is more professional. I will agree that the folding side of things went through a dead spell, but its summer and most folks kids are out of school and they are doing the vacation/summer thing.

The folding web site will help to let users post pictures and articles and such and even indirectly hold discussions outside the TR boundaries.

Front Page coverage is was got me started Folding.Theres nothing to get excited about Folding for 2630,hardly anything is ever mentioned about it on the site unless I search th DC section.How can I get excited about it when its not promoted?I'm not a great points producer,but with summer here and the electric bill rising I'm asking myself if maybe it's time to shut down for a few months.So i agree with the staleness of Folding atm,hopefully things will change as life seems to run in cycles at times.

Anyone have ideas how someone like me could help? I can't really contribute that many points anymore. But I can do website stuff. I haven't devoted any time to folding in a long time for various reasons. But there's still probably things I could do. If anyone remembers me then you know my expertise was with the stats and so forth. I can work on that again or something like it if anyone thinks it would be worthwhile.

And hey! I saw my name mentioned in the YIM log (as many here I've scaled back substantially for the summer for TR and the other two teams I work with - they originated for a TR project last summer).
Unfortunately with the other two teams, I won't be able to do nearly as much as I'd like to here.

A contest with prizes is something nice to get some attention, but isn't even close to getting something regular on the front page.
As mentioned both in this thread and in a few previous threads, having something on the front page, even if it is only once a month (twice would be better), would be a huge help to the team both for motivation and recruitment.
As mentioned above, it is motivating to new members to see themselves listed on the front page (perhaps filter it to require at least 1K completed?) And for new & existing members to see members that hit a major accomplishment (100K, 1M and every addition M is my suggestion to keep the list short and the accomplishment major - plus farmpuma already does a good list of milestones for the more minor milestones).
As news from folding seems to come in bunches with long quiet spells in between, we can't rely on that for content, but of course when it is there and news worthy, it should be mentioned. So news would have to be from membership drives, contests (especially between teams... or subteams), etc. as well as general information recruiting.
As for involvement from TR, they have an advert on front page and provide forum space for the team. And hopefully will be willing to restart the folding front page news (e.g. on every other Friday). I don't think much else can be asked of them, but wouldn't say no for swag for contests (e.g. at TR T-Shirt)

In general, from the other teams that some of us have visited, what ideas have all of you seen that we could include here?
For example: I've seen advanced stats systems (e.g. Alliance Francophone) that people can signup for a group, but still fold for their username. This permits various groups compete with one another (by geography, or system type or age or color preference or whatever). The group stats are handled & calculated internally (and automatically) for the team. I think Alliance Francophone do it by geography (damn my lousy french) - http://alliancefrancophone.org/ look at the left column under "(Stats de l'Alliance)". There are other teams that do this but that was the first one I could think off...
Another example: recent articles on the site mention folding in their testing (even if the team isn't mentioned, it helps increase awareness & interest). e.g. http://www.anandtech.com/systems/showdoc.aspx?i=2788&p=9Yet another example: Special tags for folding members plus achivement awards for members (e.g. MaxPC)
More examples: threads to welcome new members, weekly stats updates on the team's movers, folder of the week, everyone put one team folding flyer up week, etc.

I attributed most of the staleness to our inability to restart the Folding Update, even on a less than weekly manner. IIRC drfish actually had more than one of those updates written up and sent to the powers that be and was sort of understood that they would be posted on the front page. It did not happen.

And I remember distinctly that people volunteered to write updates too, just that we never got our "first post from the dead" posted and nothing continued from there.

Now that Cyril has been regularly posting stuff on the front page every day, including stuff like "Forum Introspection" and other seemingly "not the same type of front page posts as in the past" stuff, may be we can ask Cyril to post whatever updates that we have come up with (subject to his edits of course)? It does not have to be frequent, but it has to be somewhat regular.

Morale was down, weather is hot, people leaving is to be expected. Some will just leave silently and become inactive, some will just look for a reason to quit. No point looking back, we just have to move forward.

I for one am a believer in the "slow but steady win the race" theory. Look at my grid.org stats for the [H]. Over the course of 5 years and between 1-3 machines over time (and upgrades), I have become a millionaire and am quite proud of what I accomplished starting off with one lowly Pentium III. (Yeah, that is why I am not willing to move over all my CPUs for TR, I don't want to lose my < 50th status on the [H] grid.org project).

The Model M is not for the faint of heart. You either like them or hate them.

Usacomp2k3 wrote:Well, maybe once we get the new site up, we can have stuff posted like daily on there, and then possible a weekly/fortnightly synopsis that Cyril can post on TR's page. Maybe?

Jumping from 0 to daily may be a bit of a stretch. May be let's get a weekly (just a goal post) blurb going first, then see who else is on board as "the regular writing crew" and go from there? Start everything small... I think.

The Model M is not for the faint of heart. You either like them or hate them.

Usacomp2k3 wrote:Well, maybe once we get the new site up, we can have stuff posted like daily on there, and then possible a weekly/fortnightly synopsis that Cyril can post on TR's page. Maybe?

Jumping from 0 to daily may be a bit of a stretch. May be let's get a weekly (just a goal post) blurb going first, then see who else is on board as "the regular writing crew" and go from there? Start everything small... I think.

Good call. I didn't mean mean daily right away. But I'd really like to see this take off

front page mention and competition is definitely what drives more people into pitching in. i remember seeing the front page folding updates for quite a few month before i even bothered to look more into it even though i have been aware of the project long before that. almost 1.5 yr later i am still folding and climbing my way up the team slowly and steadily.
i started out with one system, my main desktop, and asked the newbie questions like anyone else first entering the team. the community that existed(both in replying to my questions and the backlog of forum posts) was what kept me folding. now i have gone from 'kicking in one proc to help a project' to 'cheaper cpu? i am so there at akiba!' and have asked a few friends who are also into computers to help out. i have between 12-18 folding clients that are on my own machines contributing(shutting down from time to time when i am not around or someone turned them off) my apt ele. bill has doubled and last month was the highest i have ever seen in the 4 years i have lived here, but i still kept 4 systems running full time in my own apt.
the little challenges we had was what motiviate half of my upgrades(while keeping the old one around to fold too) and with out them i would probably still be folding on 1 single cpu.
the lack of change in the folding client (but not the science, as mentioned by others they have published new papers recently) and the trend of more small, low ppd work certainly make it less appealing to folders. i know i look at my 4400 x2 doing less than 250ppd sometimes folding full time and it is just very discouraging. but we still fold. i hope the up coming v6 client (which still hasnt been officially announced as far as i know) will change that and give a more balanced work assignment to cpus that play to their strength. and of course, some mention on the front page/folding stress test in cpu/mobo reviews would be nice addition too.

Well, what would the duties of this "team leader" be? I mean, I toss some money at things every once in a while but I'm not sure what else needs to be done? I can't make front page updates magically appear, nor can I really do much with recruiting since like most people I'm doing this for fun.

We'd need someone to provide folding updates for Damage to post on the front page (it could be weekly like dr. fish, it could be once every other week.. as long as it's semi-regular, and not too far apart).

Plus, we could run a few in-team competitions.. when I was on HardOCP's team, we called these gauntlents. Basically, for two weeks, or 30 days, or whatever, several people would race to reach a certain point level.. or something.

We've had this from time to time, where one person would compete against another, but we should do this with multiple people. Keep the interest in the team, and make them WANT to keep folding as long as possible. While many people are in it for the science and because they want to, growth usually occurs through some form of competition - motivating people to grow.

Just some thoughts. I could probably run a gauntlet or two and provide daily stats updates, but I'd have to sit down and think how I'd run one.

Guys, I'm a little disappointed with the lack of memory around here. We didn't stop the folding updates from happening. They just faded away, quit coming in, and after time passed and DrFish said he wanted to restart them, we asked that they be consistent and have a little more professional feel if we were going to be putting them on the front page of the site again. We weren't requiring updates each week or anything; we were just asking for quality updates with some regularity--updates that were newsy, not just lists. Otherwise, the updates would have looked out of place with the rest of the content on the site. Unfortunately, DrFish decided he didn't have the time to handle the updates as a real commitment at that time. He did a post about it.

We remain open to the possibility of regular folding updates on the front page, or even irregular blurbs, from a leader or two on the team. So long as they are written well, communicate good info concisely, and are interesting for poeple to read, we're up for it.

We also have some new content types in the works, and we might be able to introduce a dedicated folding blog eventually as an extension of TR, if we can get one or two guys to maintain it. Those blog posts would be able to accept comments and show up in site-wide lists of new posts and top topics, if we wish.

We also have a folding team ad on the front page that is getting really stale. We should have four or five really good ones we can rotate in that space, IMHO, and keep them relevant over time with updates. That space could be much better used.

Beyond that, we really can't dedicate lots of time to promoting the team ourselves, because we're working very hard on trying to grow the business, and we have to commit our efforts to things like news and reviews that are more directly associated with paying the bills. And I personally am often traveling and/or on deadline, which makes things tough. But we do read and answer our email, and we have been receptive to ideas, even if not all them are good ones we choose to help implement.

FWIW, dunno if I've said this to all of you guys, but my dad has Parkinson's, and Folding is a cause I support wholeheartedly for more than just general, theoretical reasons. I want to see the team do well. I just can't make it all happen by myself while trying to do everything else on my plate. If several of you want to help write updates, run contests to promote in the updates, work on new team ads, or even come up with a stats server application we can host, please, let us know. If there are other things you thing we should be doing, shoot us some ideas.

Thank you so kindly for dropping by and elaborate a bit on the situation with the Folding Update (guys, don't use the acronym on this! ).

Damage wrote:They just faded away, quit coming in, and after time passed and DrFish said he wanted to restart them, we asked that they be consistent and have a little more professional feel if we were going to be putting them on the front page of the site again. We weren't requiring updates each week or anything; we were just asking for quality updates with some regularity--updates that were newsy, not just lists. Otherwise, the updates would have looked out of place with the rest of the content on the site. Unfortunately, DrFish decided he didn't have the time to handle the updates as a real commitment at that time. He did a post about it.

We remain open to the possibility of regular folding updates on the front page, or even irregular blurbs, from a leader or two on the team. So long as they are written well, communicate good info concisely, and are interesting for poeple to read, we're up for it.

Let me talk about this from another angle: so the doc wrote up a couple of updates, but since he could not commit to a "longer term deal" (sports analogy), even for semi-regular updates, so the ones he wrote did not get posted? That's alright. I can understand the desire for some regularity for this. The question now becomes, what is the minimum length of commitment that you require of us? 3 months? 6? What I am coming from is that may be to restart this, we can start off by securing commitment(s) from 1 or 2 guys for the minimum term, then over the course of that term we can seek others to continue this or have the original person(s) "renew" their commitment mid term. I do believe our team is pretty strong at the core and when push comes to shove, something will get written. So if you are saying that "I need at least a 6 month continuity commitment", and we can post here on the forum to recruit writers for 3 or 6 months, then when we get close, we can just ask "hey guys, the dude who has been writing the updates for the past 3 months can't do it anymore, and Damage wanted us to commit to at least 6, someone better steps up or we lose the update." I know, this doesn't sound cool with the fear tactic, but I look at this as crisis mode always bringing out the best of us. Right now, the most important thing IMO is to get the updates restarted, even if it is one guy writing this 3 times for the next 3 months. Just name your terms and we will try to match it. It may seem bleak now because there is no updates to get people excited. But once we get that going we should be able to drum up some more support, and eventually people will come forward. Although we may not be able to match your excellent writing style; coming up with a humourours jab like your reviews for each update will be a tough act to follow.

Damage wrote:We also have some new content types in the works, and we might be able to introduce a dedicated folding blog eventually as an extension of TR, if we can get one or two guys to maintain it. Those blog posts would be able to accept comments and show up in site-wide lists of new posts and top topics, if we wish.

That will be cool. Our new site also has a blog section, but we can work out the details later.

Damage wrote:We also have a folding team ad on the front page that is getting really stale. We should have four or five really good ones we can rotate in that space, IMHO, and keep them relevant over time with updates. That space could be much better used.

I definitely smell a contest coming for this then. What are the required dimensions? We can also make it into a regular affair, every 3, 6 or 12 months we recruit a new batch and keep rotating new and old. And we can even hold regular polls to choose which ones to keep current and which one to put back to the "pool". This one has potential.

The Model M is not for the faint of heart. You either like them or hate them.

Thanks for chiming in Damage. We gerbils do tend to be forgetful from time to time. It is glad to be reminded that you are supporting us. And we thank you for that.
How about once we get established with the new site and get some (at least somewhat) regular updates, we'll see what position we are in for providing scheduled updates for the TR frontpage? Also, once we get that established, we can talk to Scott about seeing if it is worthy of being a part of the TR collective and hosted by them.

Thanks for the input Damage. If I made it sound like in my post that you were the reason that the folding updates were dropped, I apologize. I know that drfish stopped with the updates, because I was in a PM with him when he was trying to update them. I remember reading that he did not have the time to do them anymore.

Anyway, I guess one way we can make the posts more newsy is to update the team's status. We could also have someone comb the folding-community forums, and get some information on the science end of it. This is a more tech-oriented site -- I think adding some science to the updates would make it more interesting for some people.

I could probably do one or two, to start. But, I have no idea how long I'll be able to maintain this, so we should probably do a two-person rotation. Share ideas and info, and maybe each person make a post every other week. The likelihood of two people bailing out at the same time is slim - if one person were to stop providing updates, the other guy can get someone else to fill in.

I'd be willing to write them once in a while, as part of a rotation. However, I'd like some help about what "newsy" is. I know I know, of or pertaining to news lol. But what sort of things would a newsy update entail?

Damage is right. Basically it went like this; he had some requirements for me to meet before he would allow the updates to return and after a lot of consideration I did the honest thing and admitted that I couldn't commit to was he was asking. It was my call to stop the updates, I thought I made that clear in the post Damage linked to.

drfish wrote:Damage is right. Basically it went like this; he had some requirements for me to meet before he would allow the updates to return and after a lot of consideration I did the honest thing and admitted that I couldn't commit to was he was asking. It was my call to stop the updates, I thought I made that clear in the post Damage linked to.

Hey doc, I understand the requirements to be newsy, somewhat regular, and somewhat professional writing style. Is there a minimum length of commitment that we need?

The Model M is not for the faint of heart. You either like them or hate them.