It is true that a lot of the Founder's issues with secular/spirtual power sitting on the same throne came from what they'd seen of the Church of England, which was split from the Catholic Church when Henry VIII decided he'd make a better head of religious power than Il Papa in Rome. And of course he and those who came after him did not at all abuse their new power over Heaven and London to the point that many colonists in the New World (Quakers, Puritans, etc.) had fled across the ocean to practice their religion without the Crown leering ominously over their shoulder, putting a severe damper on their wearing of buckle hats and torturing suspected witches.

So yeah, the Founders had many good reasons to be suspicous of an "ecclesiarchal" state.

But that takes too long to type out and it's more fun (for me anyway) to point out we're putting guys on pedestals who bought Africans like cattle and hunted Native Americans like squirrels. Plus, dueling.

But that takes too long to type out and it's more fun (for me anyway) to point out we're putting guys on pedestals who bought Africans like cattle and hunted Native Americans like squirrels. Plus, dueling.

The pedestal is for the system they created not their behavior. The biggest endorsement of the system is the number of oppressed people who wanted IN to the system instead of away from it. (I know there were those who just wanted to away from these guys, the point still stands.)

Southpaw stated that Freemasons have supported religious freedom and you responded: UNLESS.

My comments indicate I don't recall any persecution or mandate to believe from this group so I don't see how the freemasons don't support religious freedom. That is what I am asking a citation for. Any form of exception to religious freedom on the part of Freemasons. You may be right, that's why I ask.

WTF broke in your head? For the last few days, you have been reading sarcasm as literal truth.

Yeah, that's a whole two of them, with your own cherry-picked quotes, compared to numerous quotes from others, several of whom were ministers or had theological backgrounds, countless of letters from George Washington extoling Christian teaching & virtue, and all of Jefferson's writing earlier in life when he was much more faithful.

So when some idiot like you gets his ass in a rut over how the Founders weren't Christian, you're being just as bumfucking stupid as the Christian idiots who insist America was founded as a Christian nation. In short, shut the **** up.

What? You mean to tell me that history is messy? That people can be self-contradictory? Or that they might change their opinions and beliefs over time? That things aren't tied up in neat little packages that teachers in later generations can deliver quickly and concisely in a survey course?

What? You mean to tell me that history is messy? That people can be self-contradictory? Or that they might change their opinions and beliefs over time? That things aren't tied up in neat little packages that teachers in later generations can deliver quickly and concisely in a survey course?

"The only important elements in any society
are the artistic and the criminal,
because they alone, by questioning the society's values,
can force it to change."-Samuel R. Delany

RENDERING GELATINOUS WINDMILL OF DICKS

THIS IS GOING TO BE THE BEST NON-EUCLIDIAN SPLATTERJOUST EVER

It seems that the only people who support anarchy are faggots, who want their pathetic immoral lifestyle accepted by the mainstream society. It wont be so they try to create their own.-Oldman34, friend to all children