Do you like the idea of wiping out the entire vault?

spool32 wrote:Making it a discussion about equality exposes a mindset that's more geared toward winning and losing, instead of playing. Going too far down that road is probably a poor idea for the community, and letting yourself fall into that trap almost certainly will ruin your Avlis experience.

[derail thread]Not certain I understand your point, spool.

The dungeons on Avlis are designed to challenge a party of adventurers. This challenge is based on the "median" expected power of a party. This includes level, ability and gear.

If you play a gear-oriented class, GEAR IS IMPORTANT. Period. While you can enjoy Avlis without ever fighting (although, it is virtually impossible to avoid confrontation), some of the most interesting areas on Avlis are filled with hostile NPCs.

Having a goal of getting better gear and equipment is certainly valid. That is what Trade Fairs are for. Many people have said Guilds are an excellent way of obtaining better gear.

On the other hand, whining that so-and-so has been around since Avlis had one server and thus has a trunkful of CoPaP banned crap that will never see the light of day is not productive either. You dont need a glowstick or a Golden Circlet to survive most dungeons in Avlis if you are in a party.

Bottom line: nothing is wrong with wanting better gear and working for it. Whining for it and trying to take it from someone else is crap. [/derail thread]

I was responding more to Trole's post about how things would quickly become disparate (non-equal) because some people know the servers and have the time, and some do not. I'm definitely not talking about gear or people's desire to get some lewt... I'm talking about a discussion about how some PCs are unequal to others because their players are either more skilled, more knowledgeable, or unemployed (heh), and thus even a vault wipe wouldn't create "equality".

Trying to set a baseline "equality" between PCs is impossible without some conception of what a PC "should" be like, and trying to come up with the framework for judging PC equality is a contentious and community-damaging path. It's better to a) face the fact that some PCs are always going to be more powerful than yours, in some ways, and b) not let that bother you, because it's not a competition.

-spool32

Success will be lovely, but you will have to go out and get it! Failure will invite itself in.

I think you'd lose way too much as mentioned. The history, the connections, guilds, everything. I know I've invested a lot (probably way too much! heheh) of time to get my character where he is today. I know there are a ton of other characters that have too. For it to just up and disappear in a single day suddenly would be painful I think. I know that its likely headed that way someday, but at least not in the sudden sense.

That said, a sudden wipe would likely free me from the addiction! (once the crying stopped)

Not trying to scandalize too much, but even if the social states of certain PC's would become naught with a wipe, I believe that certain Players still would get a certain amount of attention and love, more than others.Everyone (DM's & Players included) has their favourites.

theP wrote:Not trying to scandalize too much, but even if the social states of certain PC's would become naught with a wipe, I believe that certain Players still would get a certain amount of attention and love, more than others.Everyone (DM's & Players included) has their favourites.

I have to just stop the shit out of this right now. I've been a DM since, January of '06 I think? And a player for longer. The staff has experienced almost a 100% turnover since I started, and I can tell you two things about supposed DM favoritism:

1) DMs like the players who are creative and engaged. If you're hooked into the world, creative, interesting, easygoing, a nice person, and most of all motivated to get involved and show initiative, you will get plots and DM attention. (note: TheP, I'm not pointing at you directly... just the general "you") Hanging out with your two or three friends, never posting, never talking about world events, and never joining a guild or a group of any sort is NOT the way to get DM attention. It might look like favoritism to those players, but the fact is that they have self-selected lower DM love, by virtue of their playstyle. Not that there's anything wrong with that! But it is what it is.

2) Players that fit the description in #1 tend to be successful within the IC world, and gain positions of power or authority that bring them more DM attention as long as they continue to be creative and engaged. It's a positive feedback loop that should be unsurprising, and certainly should not be looked at as a problem or as an exclusive club you can't get into. I've watched the Midnight company burst onto the scene and make a mark within a month, and though I know some of them are old hands returning with new characters, I don't think I've ever seen most of the players before. I surely hadn't DMed any of them before the Eastshore event, though I have cookied them all several times.

I have players and PCs that I enjoy DMing, so I do it often. The reasons I enjoy DMing them are pretty varied... some are funny, some scary, some inventive, some reliable. They are a subset whom I know will tell other players the information I give them. They'll involve others in the plots, spread the love around, get the stories out there. They will generate their own events, come up with their own ideas and solutions. They're the meeting organizers, the serial PMers, the people who post write-ups, write reports, talk in game about things. They roll with the bad stuff that happens ICly and make it a part of their character's story, and then they tell the story. They stay in character and expect the same out of the people they RP with... and they RP everywhere they go; in dungeons, walking through the city, at the Rock, at the crafting tables.

To whatever extent you are one of these types of players, you are one of my favorites! And yes, you will get a disproportionate amount of my ingame time... but this is not a bug, it's a feature. I am much more likely to run an event, or a little one off, or advance a plot I'm working on, with a party who are ICly talking amongst themselves as they wade through a dungeon, than I am with a group of silent monster bashers... especially when their coordinated movement tells me that they're all chatting away together on Skype, or sitting in the same room and talking OOCly while they pound spawns. If that's what you think is fun, great! Avlis has room for all playstyles... but I'm not spending my time just trying to get you to answer the NPC, when I know there are other people on the player list who will be more into the event and more into involving others with their own efforts afterwards.

My only real problem is finding time for all the badasses that play here. I can only kill so many of you at once!

Spool's comments on DM favoritism sum up my opinions almost verbatim. It exists, but only in so much as character portrayals bring players to our attention. I make a point to check out characters beyond my normal circles of DM-killing, and am quite happy to say I always find new and interesting individuals to DM for.

Moredo wrote:I just imagine the fun it would be with everyone on the level one to two grind without any "older PC" help. The goblin spawn in Mikona wiping out the rock. Would be hilarious.

Yeah, my thoughts exactly. All these practical issues are one thing, but imagine playing in a world where 99% of the world was unaccessible to all of the characters, and how much fun you could have collectively trying to beset this frontier. You'd need months of ground training in Mikona before anyone could even think about heading into the wilderness!

Ice-T on D&D:

"Dungeons & Dragons is some of the most crazy, deep, deep, deep nerd shit ever invented. Every word you're saying is made up. Motherfuckers talk like Yoda.".

Personally I think this would benefit the PGers more than anyone. There would be an almost instant disparity between those that are here for RP and those that see this as WoW-lite. I know a few people that can get their characters to 4th level in a day or two, and almost all of it is quest xp. From there it would be a real short trip to someone being 20th level when everyone else is 10th. It's a nice idea, and overall I would have fun with it, but I think it would mess up the dynamics of what makes the game playable.

While, as Nob mentioned, there are definate benifits, some people have put a lot into non lvl 40 characters over the years. What would be easier is to isolate Avlis from CoPaP. If my characters had been wiped after putting years of RL time into them to appeese a few people who may not like what the character base has become, I'd be done with Avlis. Considering the time invested in it, I'd always wonder if A2 might end up doing the same, and decide not to waste my time on it. In essence, killing 2 world with one wipe. I'm sure I'm not the only one that would have that in the mind's closet.

EASIER would be to copy the codes you wanted from Avlis and start your own server with private invitation to those you want to game with. This way you are surely happy with what you have to play with and aren't disrupting the majority over what a handful want.

If it was by choice, and individual accounts could be wiped with permission, then I'd go for that. When, one day, I wanna get rid of Sable, I'll send ya a PM.....

When people say DMs (and others) have favourites, it is not generally intended as an attack. It is inevitable that people have their favourites. As you yourself say, when those favourites are chosen by the best DMs (hopefully most DMs) it is on the basis of quality RP. Whatever the reason for someone getting more attention than others, I think most people accept that DMs are unpaid and accept that some DMs will favour one group, some DMs another. There are also lots of occasions when DMs make a specific effort to target new players and/or characters and really go out of their way to give attention to underloved people, so there is little cause for complaint on Avlis.

The only time people have a beef, IMO, is when that favouritism stops being about getting DM attention and time and becomes about favouring DMs one group over another and giving unfair help/hindrance to groups or individuals in guild-guild relations or character-character relations. That is out of order, and though it is pretty rare on Avlis, it does happen, occasionally. I think many of the team will always do what they can to eradicate such practices, but Avlis is not perfect. Generally though, I don't think it is what people are referring to when they talk about Avlis.

(Sorry if that last paragraph is slightly inflammatory coming from an ex-player, but after just under 5 years of playing here I think I am qualified to make such a statement)

As for how that relates to this debate, a vault wipe would have little to no effect on preventing the negative favouritism I refer to above, whilst possibly undoing the favourable work some DMs have done in the past identifying good RPers.

Fifty wrote:(Sorry if that last paragraph is slightly inflammatory coming from an ex-player, but after just under 5 years of playing here I think I am qualified to make such a statement)

And Fifty now inadvertantly makes a more important point.

It is in fact players with a sense of entitlement that are more problematic because they perceive favoritism in situations where things simply don't favor them.

"Andrinor grant me the patience not to kill those who screw things up through stupidity, the power to incinerate those who screw things up on purpose, and the wisdom to distinguish between one and the other." -The War Mage's Serenity Prayer

And people may not read through all 3 pages of a thread, and then make choices based on incomplete information. Rumors are made of less than this. Fortunately, the Team has been crystal clear on the subject.