She is a lucky lady! I had no idea she was so close to Ram Dass and Bhagavan Das. Found that out after I read her awesome biography on her website.

I really wanted to go to this retreat because it's the closest ChNN would be coming to me. No way I could do it for financial reasons. Then a few weeks later I find out ChNN is giving a free talk in New Mexico (where I live). So blessed!!

Sherab Rigdrol wrote:She is a lucky lady! I had no idea she was so close to Ram Dass and Bhagavan Das. Found that out after I read her awesome biography on her website.

I really wanted to go to this retreat because it's the closest ChNN would be coming to me. No way I could do it for financial reasons. Then a few weeks later I find out ChNN is giving a free talk in New Mexico (where I live). So blessed!!

My favorite library reading room anywhere on this earth is on the campus of the University of New Mexico. And if you get hungry, Frontier restaurant is right there across the street. I adore Albuquerque.

Need help getting on retreat? Want to support others in practice? Pay the Dana for Dharma forum a visit...

Actually that's really not fair. First, you get three meals a day there with camping and everything else you might need. They also have scholarships, work exchange, and sliding scale fees for pretty much everything. When I was there they seemed very willing to work with people to make things possible. I think it's really a matter of contacting them, explaining situation, and working things out. They also have bills to pay to keep the place running and build a truly breathtaking temple complex. At the end of the day, if we want these places to exist we have to be willing to support them, whatever form that might take.

Yes, TM is pricey. However, IMO, it's one of the most beautiful Buddhist temple complexes/retreat centers in North America and I'm sure it costs plenty to keep it running. Maybe too expensive and too remote for more than one visit per year, but, for that special Teaching, Teacher, or practice/drubchen, I don't think you'll be sorry you went. And, as has been stated, there are scholarships and other ways to mitigate the "asking" price. It truly is a very special place.

jbaumannmontilla wrote:They also have bills to pay to keep the place running and build a truly breathtaking temple complex. At the end of the day, if we want these places to exist we have to be willing to support them, whatever form that might take.

Yes, this is true! Thank you for sharing with us the announcement of this great retreat, T. Chokyi.

"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour" ~ Padmasambhava ~

I just don't understand why Tibetans and the Westerners who run their Dharma centers think these centers have to be so fancy and expensive, or why many of them tend to make choices in running these places that drive up the costs seemingly as much as possible... Things can often be done much more simply and very likely cost less and be no less meaningful. No need to have brilliant, multi-thousand dollar chandeliers throughout the gompa, gilded everything, and all manner of other exorbitant ornamentation. How about just some nice but moderately priced representations of the 3 Jewels and Roots? Now, people will say "oh but it creates merit for those who donate to these projects and then it creates a source of refuge for everybody... But yeah, in the short term it creates merit for those who get involved, and the benefit of that cannot be understated, but then in the long run the high costs exclude a considerable number of people who don't make six figures, or even the high end of five figures, or don't have invests or trust funds, etc. And sure, some of these places have sliding fee scales and work study, but explaining your level of poverty and your need for assistance to attend Dharma teachings, empowerments, and retreats gets old real quick... especially when the person(s) working the door or the registration table are well off and are extremely out of touch with life in the lower economic brackets.

It's stuff like that that makes me just wanna mostly stay home like Dharma hermit or travel an hour to a rural, authentic Nyingma Dharma center that's scaled things down and offers retreat cabins for like $5 a day, stocked with a wood stove, fire wood, a bed, a small shrine, and a place to plug in a hot plate. You bring your food, bedding, and practice items, walk a ways up and use a communal shower, and you're good to go. It should cost little to camp at a place and use a shower, and one could make a profit off simple meals for way under $300 per person, and then encourage people to discreetly offer whatever they can to the center and the visiting lama, and they could encourage regular attendees to become members of the organization who commit to regular monthly donations according to their means.And there are numerous other ways to cover costs--if you don't build a palace rivaling that of a sambhogakaya buddha--if you get creative.

Pema Rigdzin wrote:I just don't understand why Tibetans and the Westerners who run their Dharma centers think these centers have to be so fancy and expensive, or why many of them tend to make choices in running these places that drive up the costs seemingly as much as possible...

Just a quick note to point out that Tara Mandala is not a Dzogchen Community centre. It's Tsultrim Allione's very own place, and not a ling of ChNN's. ChNN has taught there, as have other teachers, but he didn't set it up - nor does he run it.

PS. I also seem to have that Puritan streak of yours, Pema Rigdzin. Give me a bare, unfurnished cabin with a stove and a clean stream nearby, and I'll be perfectly happy.

I think this is a pernicious problem the dharma faces in the West. Look at the "million dollar" remodeling that Ahkon Lhamo's center is said to need to meet code, or the purported tremendous cost of the dance pavilion at Tsegyalgar East.

Surely the money spent on all of these buildings could be better spent on supporting an ordained sangha here, paying for three-year retreatants, distributing texts free of charge, paying for translation activities, etc. Particularly for chodpas, isn't the idea to go to frightening places? Unless one has an irrational fear of chandeliers falling on one's head, is all the pomp and circumstance really necessary? People practice the path and become enlightened, not buildings.

IME, TM is a entrance-way for many Dharma noobs who are attracted to and impressed by the beauty of the place. I don't see the issue under discussion as an either/or situation. 84,000 entrances to the Dharma. If TM isn't to one's personal taste, no one says you have to go there. If you want to go there and can't afford the published prices, as has been said before, you can probably work something out. One size does not fit all, nor does one style of practice.

Once, many years ago when I was running my own youthful Puritanical number, my Root Guru told me that a true yogi should be comfortable anywhere, from a palatial mansion with golden spigots to a totally empty cave and everything in between. IMO, being critical of wealth and opulence is its own form of grasping.

Lama Tsultrim is not my Teacher, but I do appreciate what she has done at Tara Mandala. In fact, I think what she has been able to manifest there is quite incredible. The main temple blends the best of Tibetan art and architecture with modern Western fit and finish, and there are no over-the-top chandeliers or other unnecessary opulence. Personally, I find TM a model of tradition, modernity, and good taste.

pemachophel wrote:IOnce, many years ago when I was running my own youthful Puritanical number, my Root Guru told me that a true yogi should be comfortable anywhere, from a palatial mansion with golden spigots to a totally empty cave and everything in between. IMO, being critical of wealth and opulence is its own form of grasping.

That makes perfect sense to me.

/magnus

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa

pemachophel wrote:Once, many years ago when I was running my own youthful Puritanical number, my Root Guru told me that a true yogi should be comfortable anywhere, from a palatial mansion with golden spigots to a totally empty cave and everything in between. IMO, being critical of wealth and opulence is its own form of grasping.

Bob, it's not wealth and opulence for their own sake that I have a problem with: who doesn't love the beauty of an immaculately crafted and decorated Tibetan gompa? Who wouldn't love to practice there? I'm as comfortable practicing there as I am sitting on a boulder in a mountain forest, or in my shrine room at home, or in a tent in the middle of nowhere, or in my car on the way to school, or as comfortable as I am practicing pure perception while cleaning excrement and sputum and crusty stuff off my patients at the hospital, or helping them die peacefully when their time descends upon them. All these scenarios are perfect circumstances for practice in their own way. But the teachings, empowerments, and retreats are not held in the latter places... only in the gazillion dollar gompas or otherwise spendy venues. Or just a crap ton is charged even if they're held at a simple venue because some elaborate something somewhere has to be paid for.

What I was speaking against is the issue of access that inherently comes with having created the debt and ongoing monetary drain that inevitably follows the option to indulge in such opulence... an indulgence which invariably results, to some degree or another, in making actual Dharma practice, teachings and empowerments--the very heart of Vajrayana Buddhist practice--largely limited to those of upper economic status. And it does not have to be that way. We can visualize and practice pure perception. And yes, some centers do offer work study and sliding fee scales, although I have never yet come across such a center where there isn't some element of passive aggressive condescension or judgment when the issue of taking advantage of those options comes up--especially if one pursues those options too often. And I've been to lots of centers. Most of the upper middle to upper-upper people--basically yuppies--who predominate at US Dharma centers just cannot relate to people or life on the lower economic rungs, and those more advantaged people are more often then not who is at the registration table. And I don't call them yuppies in a judgmental way, but just to point out a lifestyle they often take for granted and which they often have a hard time understanding is not available to many others. And not for lack of hard work and sacrifice.

Lastly, I wasn't solely targeting TM; I was criticizing this trend in the manifestation of the Tibetan tradition in general here, where the economic environment and circumstances are very different than in Asia. And I'm not suggesting any of the people running these centers are bad people, or that the lamas are bad people. I'm saying how about we be a little more frugal and practical instead of going the way of opulence at the expense of more people actually being able to participate more fully. I mean, I'm not calling for nothing but 4 walls and a roof; one can decorate a shrine and center/gompa pretty nicely without needing to go all top shelf. Our goal is to liberate as many beings as we can, with the commitment to liberating them all, right?

For me, it takes an immeasurable degree of delusion to justify having to pay $300 to pitch a tent.

5-Star hotels charge that sort of money for semi board and accomodation AND it is not in a tent AND they PAY staff to ensure the smooth running of the facilities AND they have to maintain the facilities AND they still make a (hefty) profit.

gregkavarnos wrote:For me, it takes an immeasurable degree of delusion to justify having to pay $300 to pitch a tent.

5-Star hotels charge that sort of money for semi board and accomodation AND it is not in a tent AND they PAY staff to ensure the smooth running of the facilities AND they have to maintain the facilities AND they still make a (hefty) profit.

So let's get real here for a second.

Actually for some retreats the price for camping is up to $600 for a week to which you have to add the suggested donation for the teaching which between $150 – $300.

gregkavarnos wrote:For me, it takes an immeasurable degree of delusion to justify having to pay $300 to pitch a tent.

5-Star hotels charge that sort of money for semi board and accomodation AND it is not in a tent AND they PAY staff to ensure the smooth running of the facilities AND they have to maintain the facilities AND they still make a (hefty) profit.

So let's get real here for a second.

This may be overstating things a bit. It's impossible to say what a five-star hotel in the middle of rural Colorado would cost, because there are none. The closest comparison might be a five-star hotel in Denver. If you pay retail, can you get a five-star hotel room in Denver, with a lama and a sangha and a stupa, for $300 per?

Need help getting on retreat? Want to support others in practice? Pay the Dana for Dharma forum a visit...