Quick background - Grimoire of the Balanced Wheel is a rules revision I'm writing for D&D 3.5; it's made for a more cinematic feel where combats take 4-8 rounds (6-8) and is mostly based around the rogue level (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Dungeons_and_Dragons_Wiki:Balance_Points#Rogue_Lev el) of balance. I've borrowed (stolen) ideas from both PF and 4e while keeping the core 3e chassis to get more-or-less what I want.

The system itself is very modular, and the spotlight will examine various parts of the system itself for constructive critique and the like.

For now we'll simply examine the design goals of the system:
*Shorter rounds in real-time by...
1. Making spellcasters less prominent.
2. Simplifying monster abilities.
3. Simplifying special attacks (bull rush, grapple, trip, etc).
*Have PCs be pre-optimized but not very optimizable which means...
1. PC classes are good straight out the box, and are powerful within their own right, allowing one to take just about any feat for flavor's sake.
2. Classes aren't very optimizable, meaning that even if someone optimizes considerably they still won't put other characters who aren't optimized to shame.
3. This also removes some of the disparity of power between characters of different classes and build choices.
*Move towards a more cinematic type of combat that's 6-8 rounds long.
*Tactical combat choices make a bigger difference rather than planning, due to everyone being towards the middle of the random number generator.
*Characters have an interesting list of choices in combat, where feats come in. Feats are there primarily to introduce options, rather than pure power.
*Make DMing easy after the setup, especially the building of encounters. Scrap the CR system for something that works.
1. This also means limiting the power of PCs to completely go off story rails, putting the DM in a bad situation where he has to make things up on the fly.
*Monsters should not have immunities that render players completely useless.
*World-changing and story-derailing abilities should be kept out of the hands of players for the most part (with exceptions for story purposes).
*Keep everyone on the RNG as far as modifiers go.
*Allow people to adventure for the whole day rather than having the "15-minute workday" problem, with a soft cap using healing surges.
1. This makes it so that people aren't very strong towards the beginning of the day and then suck the rest of the day.
2. It also gives people a reason to continue adventuring rather than choosing to rest between encounters to regain daily abilities.
3. Players can rest if they want to, and it won't give them a sizable bonus, which means that the DM doesn't need to throw "filler" encounters to make characters balanced according to the D&D 3.5 encounter system where characters are supposed to have 4 encounters per day to make the daily abilities balanced.
4. Subsequent encounters don't need to be easier due to the party's loss of resources.
*Simplify magical items so that a character's power comes from their class, rather than their equipment.
*Allow all characters to contribute in social interactions.
*Play the same basic game at higher levels, rather than the game (and potentially story) breaking down once PCs come close to level 20.
*Get rid of Character Wealth by Level, make the Big Six part of a character's power rather than items that are needed for the character to be any good, and remove the "Christmas Tree" magical item effect.

Most characters will be centered around rogue-level (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Dungeons_and_Dragons_Wiki:Balance_Points#Rogue_Lev el) (tier 3 if you're familiar with that), but the rules are flexible enough to cater to very low-tier characters including core fighters, paladins, rangers, and more, and there are also rules for for toning down higher-tier characters that work well at tuning them to a per-encounter way of play along with balancing them a bit compared to rogue-level characters.

Ziegander

2010-10-17, 06:48 AM

Most characters will be centered around rogue-level (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Dungeons_and_Dragons_Wiki:Balance_Points#Rogue_Lev el) (tier 3 if you're familiar with that), but the rules are flexible enough to cater to very low-tier characters including core fighters, paladins, rangers, and more, and there are also rules for for toning down higher-tier characters that work well at tuning them to a per-encounter way of play along with balancing them a bit compared to rogue-level characters.

Everything until I got to this bit sounded great. Before this I had assumed that there were rewrites of the core classes going on; however, even if that is true, this indicates that there is still a sizeable disparity in power level between the classes.

So what's going on here? It sounds more like most characters are not centered around Rogue Level, but are a bit sucky as per normal 3.5. What's changing then? It sounds more like you're just adding some houserules and general suggestions to help neuter The Big Three (Cleric, Druid, Wizard), which seems sort of silly.

GhostwheelZ

2010-10-17, 06:53 AM

Regardless of what I write, there'll always be people who are going to whine and complain and get their DM to let them play one of those. The most I can do is to provide things that tone them down to rogue-level power or so :-)

It's true that I'm rewriting a few of the classes and giving guidelines on what kinds of classes should be used, but the point is that even if someone feels that those classes are way overpowered and are only for munchkins and powergamers, the system is stable enough to accommodate fighter-level (tier 4-5) characters with very few things changing compared to playing at rogue-level.

I hope that makes sense? :smallsmile:

Ziegander

2010-10-17, 07:38 AM

Regardless of what I write, there'll always be people who are going to whine and complain and get their DM to let them play one of those. The most I can do is to provide things that tone them down to rogue-level power or so :-)

It's true that I'm rewriting a few of the classes and giving guidelines on what kinds of classes should be used, but the point is that even if someone feels that those classes are way overpowered and are only for munchkins and powergamers, the system is stable enough to accommodate fighter-level (tier 4-5) characters with very few things changing compared to playing at rogue-level.

I hope that makes sense? :smallsmile:

Ah, okay, yes. You meant that though you are writing new classes to replace the Fighters, Paladins, Rangers of old, you want to offer suggestions to allow the system to be playable with the 3.5 versions of those classes. That's fine and dandy. Proceed!

DracoDei

2010-10-18, 08:31 AM

Well, THIS variation certainly isn't for me... I prefer limited resources, and the party being in trouble if they don't pace their use of said resources (rather than blowing most of them on the first encounter as you seem to implicitly assume). I prefer gameplay including a lot of the players (and party) discussing their next move when they have a few minutes (IC time) for a breather. I prefer that at a lot, but not all, of the classes should have a linear relationship between player skill (and preferably actual skill, rather than just following rote formulae found in "How to play an X" threads) and character survivability/effectiveness, but that most of that relationship should be in PLAYING the character, rather than building the character (and also including the concept that the GM or a more experienced player will be helping the less experienced members of the group during character creation). I believe that tactical and strategic intellegence should be valuible, and thus that the spells most in need of nerfing are the high-level divinations.

So... have fun, it sounds like something worth doing, just be aware there are other paradyms out there.

GhostwheelZ

2010-10-18, 01:12 PM

Sure thing :smallsmile:

Just because I like chocolate ice cream and you like vanilla ice cream doesn't make either of us wrong :smallbiggrin:

Jota

2010-10-18, 02:59 PM

For now we'll simply examine the design goals of the system:

Shorter rounds in real-time by...

Making spellcasters less prominent.
Simplifying monster abilities.
Simplifying special attacks (bull rush, grapple, trip, etc).
Have PCs be pre-optimized but not very optimizable which means...
PC classes are good straight out the box, and are powerful within their own right, allowing one to take just about any feat for flavor's sake.
Classes aren't very optimizable, meaning that even if someone optimizes considerably they still won't put other characters who aren't optimized to shame.
This also removes some of the disparity of power between characters of different classes and build choices.
Move towards a more cinematic type of combat that's 6-8 rounds long.
Tactical combat choices make a bigger difference rather than planning, due to everyone being towards the middle of the random number generator.
Characters have an interesting list of choices in combat, where feats come in. Feats are there primarily to introduce options, rather than pure power.
Make DMing easy after the setup, especially the building of encounters. Scrap the CR system for something that works.
This also means limiting the power of PCs to completely go off story rails, putting the DM in a bad situation where he has to make things up on the fly.
Monsters should not have immunities that render players completely useless.
World-changing and story-derailing abilities should be kept out of the hands of players for the most part (with exceptions for story purposes).
Keep everyone on the RNG as far as modifiers go.
Allow people to adventure for the whole day rather than having the "15-minute workday" problem, with a soft cap using healing surges.
This makes it so that people aren't very strong towards the beginning of the day and then suck the rest of the day.
It also gives people a reason to continue adventuring rather than choosing to rest between encounters to regain daily abilities.
Players can rest if they want to, and it won't give them a sizable bonus, which means that the DM doesn't need to throw "filler" encounters to make characters balanced according to the D&D 3.5 encounter system where characters are supposed to have 4 encounters per day to make the daily abilities balanced.
Subsequent encounters don't need to be easier due to the party's loss of resources.
Simplify magical items so that a character's power comes from their class, rather than their equipment.
Allow all characters to contribute in social interactions.
Play the same basic game at higher levels, rather than the game (and potentially story) breaking down once PCs come close to level 20.
Get rid of Character Wealth by Level, make the Big Six part of a character's power rather than items that are needed for the character to be any good, and remove the "Christmas Tree" magical item effect.

Presentation. Bam.

GhostwheelZ

2010-10-19, 09:20 PM

<bump>

Anything else that should be added to the goals? Anything removed? Why? Anyone?