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Omar

Hi morty. I’m from cape town south Africa and would like to say that a few months ago I was really struggling to get to grips with addiction (I won’t mention the type) and your info really helped. I’m still relapsing, but before I used to only feel in control of my life when I “use”. Now my life is slowly coming back to me since I started repairing my self esteem using your free online material.

I’m in education though and would like to incorporate what you teach into my work and maybe also become a practitioner when my “ills” are over/manageable. How would I go about it from here?

Omar

What I meant by “here” in my previous post is from cape town south Africa.

Omar

Also at 29 seconds I think the narration was supposed to be “and if they say yes”. Replayed it a few times but not sure if I could maybe be missing something.

Darren’s parents thinking his chore-performance is not good enough, but not -NECESSARILY- he, as a person is not good enough, PRECLUDES Darren from NOT being good enough?

Whereas Darren’s belief that he is not good enough may have come from what his parent’s said to him growing up, couldn’t his parents have ALSO thought that he (in ADDITION to, or BECAUSE of, his chore-performance) was ALSO not good enough?

Moreover, isn’t it possible that Darren’s parents think that the fruit of their collective loins is just peachy, thank-you very much, but that Darren is, in reality, not good enough, because what do Darren’s parents know anyway? People expect parents to feel a positive bias in favor of their children…what if the parents are wrong?

What about Hitler’s parents? How did they feel about their worthless anti-semitc mass-murdering son?

…Sorry if I seem cheeky, but these really are the questions I grapple with on a daily basis…I don’t WANT to eliminate the belief that I am worthless if it is in fact the TRUTH…if I am worthless, I want to KNOW! If I DON”T know, that would only make me MORE worthless!

…Please help.

– .

beck

arwen: So, if someone else thinks you’re worthless, you are? What if your parents think you are worthless, but everyone one else thinks you do have worth? What’s the truth there?
Actually, it’s pretty hard to be worthless if you reside on planet Earth. Even maggots have worth.
Why would you leave it up to others to decide? It’s something that’s impossible for them to do anyway…

Actually, in my question I never stated that 1s worth is determined by 1s parents, or anyone else for that matter…only that it IS IN FACT POSSIBLE for people to have the opinion that someone is worthless, and for that person to in reality BE worthless…in other words it is POSSIBLE for people to be correct if they believe that someone is worthless…this goes for both other people’s opinion of me, AND my opinion of myself.

The Lefkoe method seems to hinge on a logical phalacy: That just because people said you are wothless; treated you as though you are worthless, or even simply beleive that you are worthless, that it is “impossible” to actually BE worthless. I maintain that it IS possible…just like it is “possible” for someone who merely feels worthless to in fact have great worth.

I am 100% positive that beleiving something does not make it true…we are not in the Matrix. However, if you “beleive” otherwise, I may not be able to convince you…that said, I thought the purpose of the video and this webpage was to convince ME. I am interested in finding the TRUTH, however inconvenient it may be. Simply beleiving something that helps me feel good is not enough…I want to DESERVE to feel good.

Agree that maggots are awsome!

take care – .

beck

I think I understand what you are saying–to a point. It may be better not to use the word “worthless” though. As I stated before, it’s impossible to be worthless. How do you think it could be possible?

Have you done any of The Lefkoe method? One of the free ones is “I’m Not Worthy” Check it out if you haven’t.

As far as wanting the truth–how would you ever know if it presented itself? Whose truth?

Watching a good movie or reading a good book makes me feel good.–whether I’m deserving or not. I’m not wanting praise or a medal for it. I like to feel good. If we all stopped trying to say who is deserving of what–the world might be a much kinder place.

It seems to me that if the Lefkoe method hinges entirely on a logical falacy, that it cannot be entirely trusted. Moreover, why not just say to someone with the belief “I’m unworthy” as emphatically as you can that “everyone is worthy”. People really do beleive things for a reason, and not only because of the way they are treated by others…

Although; if your main “goal” in life were to be treated as though you were worthwhile by others, whatever your inherent worth, and you were NOT treated like you were worthwhile, then having fallen short of your primary goal, (being treated as though you were worthwhile) you MAY AS WELL actually BE worthless…NOT because you failed to reach your primary goal, but precisely because you were treated that way…THE END-RESULT IS THE SAME, as far as your primary goal is concerned.

Does the fact that you have the moral highground change anything while someone is abusing you? If anything, it is the very reason they chose to abuse YOU instead of someone else who might have appeared to be stronger. And while they are abusing you, they are controlling you…they are in charge, and you can be as smug as you want through their abuse, it does not change the fact thet you have no control over what happens to you, while they receive the reward of stepping on you. (1 can safely assume they find it rewarding somehow, since they are choosing to do it., and since they are in charge.) While I really do beleive that Lefkoe’s intentions are good, (and yours too Beck!) I think we should be honest about the COST of beleifs that might be false…it is simply not enough for SOME people to simply “beleive the right thing”. Believing stuff really doesn’t always make stuff true, I have witnessed it many times, and not merely with regards to people’s beleifs about worthiness, which I admit is entirely subjective. What about abusive Narcissists? Aren’t there in fact some people on this earth who should do an LBP to feel LESS worthy? Or do they just go to a different website?

Can you provide a link to the free “I’m Not Worthy” LBP?

Thank-you for your time…

take care – .

beck

I’m not even sure what the argument here is anymore…Apparently you think most deserve to think the worst about themselves…and maybe they do, I don’t know. I just wanna know how that’s gonna help anyone?

The Bible says none of us are worthy and all are deserving of death–yet, here we are.

Why are you so concerned about what others are doing? Yes, there are Narcissists out there. I have no interest in them–unless they are a Hitler in my life.

I don’t know what you want. We’re all scum? How’s that help you? Or anyone. You want someone punished? Take them to court.

you can get 3 belief enders here–http://www.recreateyourlife.com/free/free-beliefs.php you may need to do more before you can get here–put your email in etc. I was wrong about the unworthy part–but, you can get “not good enough” and “not important”

Hello Beck…thank-you again for your response. I hope I am not offending you or anyone else? It’s just that I feel as though I am being asked to unquestioningly drink the koolaid and declare how finely dressed the emperor is, when it looks to me as though a naked emperor has just peed in the aforementioned koolaid…

As I said in my first post, there is a logical falacy in this Lefkoe video…please note that in an “argument”, a logical falacy is something that quite simply, could never “be true”, due to it’s violation of logic. I am certainly not out to punish you, or Mr. Lefkoe…I was only trying to determine if that logical falacy was SUPPOSED to be there, and we are not supposed to notice, or if I did not understand the “argument” as lefkoe was stating it…that is:

“Darren’s parents thinking his chore-performance is not good enough, but not -NECESSARILY- he, as a person is not good enough”…PRECLUDES Darren from NOT being good enough? Because that is exactly what Lefkoe says in this video…

I maintain that in the universe as I understand it, it IS in fact still POSSIBLE for Darren to “not be good enough”…in other words I think that it is POSSIBLE for someone to have that opinion about how someone else does there chores, and that it is STILL possible for that person to not be good enough.

Another way of thinking about this would be to ask: Does Darren’s parents thinking his chore-performance is not good enough GUARANTEE that Darren IS good enough? If the 2 things (“parents opinions” and “inherent worth”) have absolutely NOTHING to do with each other, than it is a logical falacy for Mr. Lefkoe to suggest that they DO. This is really about the way parents opinions/beliefs have affected the child’s opinions/beliefs…BUT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH REALITY, only the way reality is percieved.

In the film “An Inconvenient Truth” the audience is challenged to ponder whether or not the thing that is easy, and even “feels good” to believe, might not in fact be true, and further to consider what the COSTS of not understanding reality might be. I suppose I am asking the same question. As I said I am interested in TRUTH more than I am in feeling good…I do not wish to be blissfully ignorant, like the frog in the pot of water that will eventually boil. It may be very “convenient” for me to beleive that I have inherent worth, but what if I ACTUALLY don’t?

…this is where Jack Nicholson tells me I “can’t handle the truth”…different movie, same idea.

Thank-you very much for the links Beck, I will check them out!

take care – .

beck

Ok Arwen. The people of Earth have decided you have no worth. Is it true? Who says?

I am sensing quite a bit of frustration on your part, and it may be causing you to respond toward me in a personal way, rather than take a look at what I have said and reply to it thoughtfully…this kind of thing can also happen when religious people invite others to join their faith, and when the potential converts start to ask perfectly logical questions like: “Can you PROVE he walked on water? Or did you just read that in a book?” Thing is, Mr. Lefkoe himself advises us to USE logic, which is something that is harder and harder for people to do when they are angry. My goal is to have a reasoned debate on this video and the Lefkoe method in general…instead of attacking me personally, or saying I have said things which I clearly have NOT, why not carefully examine what I have said? IF you took the time to do that for Mr. Lefkoe, I am sure you could do it for me, and then you could give me a reasoned and well thought-out response…or, if you are just not in the mood for that, perhaps someone else could answer my question?

If I may, I would like to respond to your last message in point form…

“Ok Arwen. The people of Earth have decided you have no worth. Is it true? Who says?” -Beck

-This would not even be something that someone would neccessarily have to “say” or even “realize” or “decide”…it could simply be “so” or “not so”. I struggle with issues of self-esteem just like I think you do, Beck…but I also have a parallel struggle to understand reality…it’s a deadly combination!

-You are very correct that I do NOT “feel better”…but if feeling better would mean LYING to myself about something that I feel is so important, than, for myself at least, that is simply too high a price to pay to “feel good”. That price, I fear, might be feeling better in the short term while I ignore the long-term affects of my innaction, or etc. The climate-change example from An Inconvenient Truth is what I am talking about again…the frog in the pot of slowly heating water, who has no idea that eventually the pot will boil and kill the frog. Alcoholics and other addicts also make a similar mistake of trying to feel good only in the short term, without considering the long-term affects their substance-abuse will have on themselves and those around them. Another example of CONVENIENTLY blissfull ignorance.

“P.S. Does it guarantee Darren is NOT good enough?” -Beck

-I am not sure why you thought to add that to your comments, as you are basically repeating the part of my post where I said and I quote: “Another way of thinking about this would be to ask: Does Darren’s parents thinking his chore-performance is not good enough GUARANTEE that Darren IS good enough?” Did you actually read my entire post, Beck? If not that is up to you, but it will completely end any possibility of us having a reasoned debate.

“And no one is forcing you to drink anything–you chose to be here.” -Beck

-I never said I was being forced, I said I was being “asked” there is a HUGE difference between (forcing) “coercing”, and “asking” something to be done, which is what Mr. Lefkoe does in this video. I will quote myself again RE; the koolaid: “It’s just that I feel as though I am being asked to unquestioningly drink the koolaid and declare how finely dressed the emperor is, when it looks to me as though a naked emperor has just peed in the aforementioned koolaid…” Regarding my self-quotes, they are still visible in the thread for you, Beck, and everyone else to see.

I actually really LIKE that The Lefkoe Method asks us to use logic and reason to find the correct beliefs…it just so happens that Mr. Lefkoe has a logically fallacious flaw in his argument, or at least, the way he phrases his argument in this video. (Unless I have misunderstood Lefkoe’s argument? Maybe someone could read my original post and help me out with that?) It would be an insult to the very institution of logic to NOT point out a fallacy that is so obvious…in fact, Beck, as I implied earlier, your argument actually makes more sense that Mr. Lefkoe’s; when you said that “everyone has worth”…although I know that is just your opinion. But as an opinion it makes more logical sense than what Lefkoe says in this video. The next logical questions about your opinion would be: “Can you PROVE that everyone has worth? Or did you just CHOOSE to beleive that? What if I am the only 1 who does NOT have worth? And etc.”

I agree that I choose to be here Beck…in fact, we both do. Personally, I choose to be in a lot of places…Morty Lefkoe INVITED me here, just as he did you. Thank-you for your time!

Arwen, you are probably right sensing frustration with Beck because I am also having frustration in reading your comments. You are trying to make this to deep and otherworldly. People try to tare things apart trying to prove that they don’t work because then they don’t have to do the personal work on themselves. If you keep it on a intellectual level you won’t even find out whatever it is you are looking for. You have to lower the intellectual stuff and get into the feeling stuff to solve your problem from the past, because the feeling stuff is what is causing the problems and you are not aware of it because you are to into your intellectual self. I can vouch for this method because I have been through similar processes, but this approach is much more simple to relate to and not psychological jargon. Let me know if this helped.
Shar

Jane

Hey Arwen,
Am I right (didn’t read it all, sorry) in thinking that you want someone else to tell you whether you’re worthless or not? I’m afraid you may be in for a disappointment.
Isn’t that like asking someone if toads are beautiful? Toads happen to be one of my favourite creatures but I know I’m in the minority and most think they’re hideous. Toads of the opposite sex, however, think toads are fabulous, especially that one with the huge pink throat over there, and some snakes think they’re the most delicious things ever. Who is it that you’re expecting to tell you if you’re worthwhile?
Your maths teacher? Me? Robert Mugabe? Beck? Who’s qualified to decide? And when Robert Mugabe decides you’re worthless, because you probably are to him (as no doubt am I), what will his criteria be? I don’t have millions of dollars I can give him, so I’m worthless. I can’t come over and play chess with him, so I’m worthless. I’m not his kinda gal, so I’m worthless,
I suspect that what you really want to do is to win some “awfully intellectual” prize, and then put the course in a box of ‘That’s total rubbish’ and not have to actually face yourself and do the work.
Shakespeare was so wise when he said “The lady doth protest too much, methinks”. In this case it’s “Arwen doth protest too much”. I’m thinking, the more noise you’re making, the more you’re actually trying to resist the truth. If you really thought it was rubbish, you’d never have wasted so much of your valuable time protesting and protesting on this site 🙂 Just a thought

Jane

Hey Arwen,
Whether you’re worthless or not (and who’s qualified to decide that?), life’s a helluva lot easier if you don’t think so, so don’t think so. You can think so if you want to, but you’re never going to get an answer you’re satisfied with (am I worthless or not?) from any person who’s qualified to give it.
It’s like faith in God. You’re never going to actually see God and so, if proof is the only thing that’s going to make you believe, you have to accept you’re never going to believe, give it up and move on with your life…or just believe anyway, ‘cos just like no-one can prove you’re right, no-one can prove you’re wrong either, not even Stephen Hawking. Or have a come into the argument from left field?
Morty Lefkoe, I think, is assuming everyone wants to feel they have worth. If you’ve decided that there are people that are in fact worthless in their entirety, including possibly yourself, you may be in completely the wrong place and perhaps you should be googling the best anti-depressants, and I’m not being nasty here, I’ve suffered from depression and your argument sounds like me a few years ago.