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I keep seeing this idea that 4th ed is being abandoned. I see 4th ed all over D&D Next. Just as I see 3rd ed and 2nd ed. The only difference is. This isn't 4.5e, like essentials was, it's a new edition where elements are being drawn from all previous D&D editions. Not just 4e. So while there will be differences and non-4e elements, that doesn't negate that 4e ideas are still in D&D Next.

Healing Surges

IMO the best mechanic from 4th ed. Healing surges have returned. Unlike 4th ed healing surges, you roll to regain the HP rather than just get back a set number. Of course, any DM could easily say "you take the average of the roll rather then roll" and now we've got 4th ed healing surges.

Another difference is that instead of getting a fixed number of healing surges across the entire span of your career, it scales as you go up in level, granting you more and more healing surges the higher level you get.

No Stat Penalties for Races

Every single edition of D&D has had ability score modifiers that included negative values depending on your race. That is not the case in 4th ed where you ONLY get positive modifiers. This has continued to D&D Next.

Trained or Not Trained in Skills

3.5e had a highly detailed method of determining how much training you had in a particular skill. 4th ed simplified this dramatically by treating it as a binary value. Either you are trained in a skill or you aren't trained in a skill. D&D Next has continued this method of determining your bonus to skills.

Reduced bonuses to attacks

3.5e had a highly detailed number of variables you could add to your attack modifiers. 4th ed consolidated a lot of these benefits by introducing the concept of combat advantage. 4th ed still kept some different types of bonuses. But a lot of them were reduced by simply granting combat advantage.

D&D Next has continued this methodology by simplifying bonuses even further by simply granting advantage or disadvantage.

Basic NPC Creation

4th ed treated NPCs and monsters as the exact same thing. They were created in the exact same manner. One look at the bestiary tells you that D&D Next is continuing with this methodology. While we do know there will be optional rules for using a 3.5e style of creating NPCs, that isn't going to be the only way, or even the default way.

Martial Characters with Unique Powers

Fighters in 3.5e got extra feats. That's it. 4th ed gave them unique powers that only they had access to. D&D Next has continued this by giving fighters unique maneuvers that only they can use.

At-Will Spells

The idea of giving casters spells they could use all day long was a development pioneered in 4th ed. It was so good that Paizo stole the idea and used it in Pathfinder. For me the idea of 0th level spells not being at-will is mind-boggling.

D&D Next has continued this idea by granting all casters at-will spells.

Rituals

Because of the massive change in spell structure from Vancian to AEDU, 4th ed captured a lot of the utility spells that come up a handful of times in a campaign by making them rituals. These are spells that do not take up your in combat resources for out of combat benefits. Rituals removed the need to decide between an alarm for the day or an extra fireball.

D&D Next has continued this by allowing spells to be cast as rituals.

Healing as well as fighting

Many people consider clerics healbots pre-4th ed. It doesn't gel with my Pathfinder experience, but it's a commonly held belief. 4th ed changed that by allowing healing powers to be cast as a minor action allowing you to still use a damaging power.

D&D Next has continued this through the use of the "word of power" condition on spells. Essentially a spell that has "word of power" is a minor action allowing the cleric to do something else on their turn.

--

Are all developments from 4th ed in D&D Next? No. Martial abilities are on a different resource management system to spells. But many of the 4th ed developments are part of D&D Next. So I disagree with the notion that 4th ed has been thrown under the bus. While D&D Next isn't simple a 4th ed clone, it does contain many of its innovations.

Hit Dice, if they are meant as a replacement for Healing Surges, are an incredibly poor replacement for the mechanic both in actual use and in theme.

Healing Surges served two purposes: To provide scaled healing (so that the same cure spell didn't cure the wizard to full but cure the fighter for maybe a quarter of the damage he had recieved) and to limit the amount of healing a character could recieve in a day.

Hit Dice as they work right now accomplish neither of those. The scaled healing that surges provided is not there. A healing spell heals the same amount of hit points used on a wizard or on a fighter. It doesn't matter that this heals the wizard to full and then some, and heals less than half the total hit points on the fighter. The limit on the amount of healing per day is not there either - it's a question of how many times per day can a group cast a spell, rather than how many times per day the group can get healed. This is not a function of hit dice at all.

Whereas Healing Surges were a comprehensive and important part of the entire party dynamic in 4e, they are a joke in DDN - they seem to be there so you "don't need a cleric". This was a tertiary function of healing surges in 4e, if a function at all. It was more a fringe benifit that operated under the concept of scaled healing.

Supporting an edition you like does not make you an edition warrior. Demanding that everybody else support your edition makes you an edition warrior.

Why do I like 13th Age? Because I like D&D: http://magbonch.wordpress.com/2013/10/16/first-impressions-13th-age/

AzoriusGuildmage- "I think that you simply spent so long playing it, especially in your formative years with the hobby, that you've long since rationalized or houseruled away its oddities, and set it in your mind as the standard for what is and isn't reasonable in an rpg."

IMO the best mechanic from 4th ed. Healing surges have returned. Unlike 4th ed healing surges, you roll to regain the HP rather than just get back a set number. Of course, any DM could easily say "you take the average of the roll rather then roll" and now we've got 4th ed healing surges.

Another difference is that instead of getting a fixed number of healing surges across the entire span of your career, it scales as you go up in level, granting you more and more healing surges the higher level you get.

1) Taking the average is not the same as healing surges. Sure, it provides a static value like surges did, but the larger problem with your assertion is that healing surges often accounted for more healing than the character's HP total (for example, 4 healing surges equals the ability to recover 100% of your health. However, the essentials druid has 7 surges plus Con mod). Unless your HD in next exceeds your character level, you cannot accomplish the same thing by simply taking the average.

2) 4e's surges were also used as a limiter on magical healing. DDN's HDs soes nothing to accomplish that.

Trained or Not Trained in Skills

3.5e had a highly detailed method of determining how much training you had in a particular skill. 4th ed simplified this dramatically by treating it as a binary value. Either you are trained in a skill or you aren't trained in a skill. D&D Next has continued this method of determining your bonus to skills.

1) The bonus to your skill comes from a skill die, not a static bonus from being trained or not trained.

2) The skill list is far to specific for the number of trained skills a character gets. They need to give us at least two skill lists: one that is long like the current list or 3e list, and one that is consolidated like the 4e list or SWSE list.

Rituals
Because of the massive change in spell structure from Vancian to AEDU, 4th ed captured a lot of the utility spells that come up a handful of times in a campaign by making them rituals. These are spells that do not take up your in combat resources for out of combat benefits. Rituals removed the need to decide between an alarm for the day or an extra fireball.

D&D Next has continued this by allowing spells to be cast as rituals.

Rituals come from the 3e ruleset, particularly d20 Modern's Urban Arcana's rules for incantations. 4e cleaned up the implementation a bit, but this is a 3e rule.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

You really shouldn't speak for others. You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

I keep seeing this idea that 4th ed is being abandoned. I see 4th ed all over D&D Next. Just as I see 3rd ed and 2nd ed. The only difference is. This isn't 4.5e, like essentials was, it's a new edition where elements are being drawn from all previous D&D editions. Not just 4e. So while there will be differences and non-4e elements, that doesn't negate that 4e ideas are still in D&D Next.

Healing Surges

IMO the best mechanic from 4th ed. Healing surges have returned. Unlike 4th ed healing surges, you roll to regain the HP rather than just get back a set number. Of course, any DM could easily say "you take the average of the roll rather then roll" and now we've got 4th ed healing surges.

Another difference is that instead of getting a fixed number of healing surges across the entire span of your career, it scales as you go up in level, granting you more and more healing surges the higher level you get.

No Stat Penalties for Races

Every single edition of D&D has had ability score modifiers that included negative values depending on your race. That is not the case in 4th ed where you ONLY get positive modifiers. This has continued to D&D Next.

Trained or Not Trained in Skills

3.5e had a highly detailed method of determining how much training you had in a particular skill. 4th ed simplified this dramatically by treating it as a binary value. Either you are trained in a skill or you aren't trained in a skill. D&D Next has continued this method of determining your bonus to skills.

Reduced bonuses to attacks

3.5e had a highly detailed number of variables you could add to your attack modifiers. 4th ed consolidated a lot of these benefits by introducing the concept of combat advantage. 4th ed still kept some different types of bonuses. But a lot of them were reduced by simply granting combat advantage.

D&D Next has continued this methodology by simplifying bonuses even further by simply granting advantage or disadvantage.

Basic NPC Creation

4th ed treated NPCs and monsters as the exact same thing. They were created in the exact same manner. One look at the bestiary tells you that D&D Next is continuing with this methodology. While we do know there will be optional rules for using a 3.5e style of creating NPCs, that isn't going to be the only way, or even the default way.

Martial Characters with Unique Powers

Fighters in 3.5e got extra feats. That's it. 4th ed gave them unique powers that only they had access to. D&D Next has continued this by giving fighters unique maneuvers that only they can use.

At-Will Spells

The idea of giving casters spells they could use all day long was a development pioneered in 4th ed. It was so good that Paizo stole the idea and used it in Pathfinder. For me the idea of 0th level spells not being at-will is mind-boggling.

D&D Next has continued this idea by granting all casters at-will spells.

Rituals

Because of the massive change in spell structure from Vancian to AEDU, 4th ed captured a lot of the utility spells that come up a handful of times in a campaign by making them rituals. These are spells that do not take up your in combat resources for out of combat benefits. Rituals removed the need to decide between an alarm for the day or an extra fireball.

D&D Next has continued this by allowing spells to be cast as rituals.

Healing as well as fighting

Many people consider clerics healbots pre-4th ed. It doesn't gel with my Pathfinder experience, but it's a commonly held belief. 4th ed changed that by allowing healing powers to be cast as a minor action allowing you to still use a damaging power.

D&D Next has continued this through the use of the "word of power" condition on spells. Essentially a spell that has "word of power" is a minor action allowing the cleric to do something else on their turn.

--

Are all developments from 4th ed in D&D Next? No. Martial abilities are on a different resource management system to spells. But many of the 4th ed developments are part of D&D Next. So I disagree with the notion that 4th ed has been thrown under the bus. While D&D Next isn't simple a 4th ed clone, it does contain many of its innovations.

If there is one thing I would change about dnd through all editions it would be that I would make healing something that can not even be done in combat. We never even attempted it pre 3.x but that was us.

Could you please explain to me why I'm a troll for voicing an opinion, whereas countless other people expressing the opinion that "D&D Next is throwing 4th ed players under the bus" aren't trolling? Is it the fact they mention it in countless other threads and I've created a new thread? Because I was looking to not derail the discussions taking place in those threads.

To provide scaled healing (so that the same cure spell didn't cure the wizard to full but cure the fighter for maybe a quarter of the damage he had recieved) and to limit the amount of healing a character could recieve in a day.

I saw the best element of healing surges to be that they provided non-magical healing and that anyone could heal themselves out of combat.

Otherwise 4th ed functions exactly the same as 3.5e in my experience when it comes to healing.

The scaled healing that surges provided is not there. A healing spell heals the same amount of hit points used on a wizard or on a fighter.

I haven't seen this as an issue as in my experience wizards rarely receive the same amounts of healing as fighters. This was true in both 3.5e and 4th ed (in 4th ed my wizard bought an item that let him give his unused surges to other players because he almost never took damage).

4th ed: In combat you need the "leader" to heal you (unless you have some self-healing powers). Out of combat you always get to maximimum hit points.3.5e: In combat you need someone with healing spells to heal you. Out of combat you always get to maximum hit points thanks to cure light wounds wands.

4th ed changed the cosmetic look to healing rather then a functional difference (IMO). The one new thing it did bring to the table was you didn't need a healer to heal you out of combat.

The limit on the amount of healing per day is not there either - it's a question of how many times per day can a group cast a spell, rather than how many times per day the group can get healed.

Again I never saw this as an issue in 4th ed. Especially when you consider items that let you share surges between players (making surges a party resource rather then a character resource). In LFR you got so many healing surges that you ran out of mod before you ran out of healing surges. In home games combats take so long after heroic tier that the limiting factor is real life time, not the number of surges the party has.

they seem to be there so you "don't need a cleric". This was a tertiary function of healing surges in 4e, if a function at all. It was more a fringe benifit that operated under the concept of scaled healing.

Again. Due to the fact we disagree on the purpose of healing surges, we disagree on how well DDN's hit die replicate this function.

You are incorrect about healing surges, skills

I respectfully disagree.

1) Taking the average is not the same as healing surges. Sure, it provides a static value like surges did, but the larger problem with your assertion is that healing surges often accounted for more healing than the character's HP total (for example, 4 healing surges equals the ability to recover 100% of your health. However, the essentials druid has 7 surges plus Con mod). Unless your HD in next exceeds your character level, you cannot accomplish the same thing by simply taking the average.

Out of combat healing getting you back to maximum was not a new element brought to D&D by 4th ed. It existed in 3.5e through the cure light wounds wand.

1) The bonus to your skill comes from a skill die, not a static bonus from being trained or not trained.

I don't think you understood what I was saying.

3.5e: You get skill points at each level to determine what type of bonus you get. You may distribute these points however you see fit.4th ed: At 1st level you select which skills you're trained in.D&D Next: At 1st level you select which skills you're trained in.

The skill die mechanic is different to 4th ed. But it's also separate to the binary condition of "trained" or "not trained".

The skill die mechanic is completely new to D&D.

2) The skill list is far to specific for the number of trained skills a character gets. They need to give us at least two skill lists: one that is long like the current list or 3e list, and one that is consolidated like the 4e list or SWSE list.

Correct. The skill list is similar to 3.5e. However the binary condition of "trained" or "not trained" is from 4th ed (which is what I was trying to get across in my initial post).

Rituals come from the 3e ruleset, particularly d20 Modern's Urban Arcana's rules for incantations. 4e cleaned up the implementation a bit, but this is a 3e rule.

Aaah. I was not aware of this. My familiarity with 3.5e ends with the PHB, MM and DMG.

1) Taking the average is not the same as healing surges. Sure, it provides a static value like surges did, but the larger problem with your assertion is that healing surges often accounted for more healing than the character's HP total (for example, 4 healing surges equals the ability to recover 100% of your health. However, the essentials druid has 7 surges plus Con mod). Unless your HD in next exceeds your character level, you cannot accomplish the same thing by simply taking the average.

Out of combat healing getting you back to maximum was not a new element brought to D&D by 4th ed. It existed in 3.5e through the cure light wounds wand.

You ignored the second part of the difference. Healing surges in 4e also limited magical healing. Consuming a healing potion required you to spend a healing surge. The potion usually granted more HP than just spending the surge for non-magical healing, but the surge was needed. Likewise, plenty of healing spells allowed the spending of a surge to heal (with bonus healing from the healer who cast the spell). With no surges left this kind of magical healing is greatly reduced.

1) The bonus to your skill comes from a skill die, not a static bonus from being trained or not trained.

I don't think you understood what I was saying.

3.5e: You get skill points at each level to determine what type of bonus you get. You may distribute these points however you see fit.4th ed: At 1st level you select which skills you're trained in.D&D Next: At 1st level you select which skills you're trained in.

The skill die mechanic is different to 4th ed. But it's also separate to the binary condition of "trained" or "not trained".

The skill die mechanic is completely new to D&D.

Yes, the skill die mechanic is new. However, see below.

2) The skill list is far to specific for the number of trained skills a character gets. They need to give us at least two skill lists: one that is long like the current list or 3e list, and one that is consolidated like the 4e list or SWSE list.

Correct. The skill list is similar to 3.5e. However the binary condition of "trained" or "not trained" is from 4th ed (which is what I was trying to get across in my initial post).

Yes and no. 3e had plenty of trained only uses for skills, beginning the binary thought. It was carried out to its final execution not in 4e, but in SWSE. In fact, many of the innovations of 4e were first tested in SWSE, including the way it handled skills and defenses (though 4e separated AC and Reflex).

Rituals come from the 3e ruleset, particularly d20 Modern's Urban Arcana's rules for incantations. 4e cleaned up the implementation a bit, but this is a 3e rule.

Aaah. I was not aware of this. My familiarity with 3.5e ends with the PHB, MM and DMG.

Then that would explain why you also didn't realize that at-will spells come from 3e as well. Although I never read the book that had it, I have been informed by other posters that a 3e book included a warlock class that had at-will powers. Furthermore, there was a 3e book that included martial maneuvers (not sure if it was Tome of Battle or Book of 9 Swords. I never read either of those), but I'm not sure what the implementation was since I never read it.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

You really shouldn't speak for others. You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

The thing is, while you are right that some of those things were in 4th, most of them were in 3.5 (or even 3rd Edition and in some cases 2nd Ed options) as well.

And if you don't think Healing Surges were largely about limiting daily healing (in direct response to the Cure Light Wounds Wand issue) then you need to go back and re-read the design notes for 4th Edition.

That one example, which I think is legitimate, is amusingly the one you are most mistaken about.

Then that would explain why you also didn't realize that at-will spells come from 3e as well. Although I never read the book that had it, I have been informed by other posters that a 3e book included a warlock class that had at-will powers. Furthermore, there was a 3e book that included martial maneuvers (not sure if it was Tome of Battle or Book of 9 Swords. I never read either of those), but I'm not sure what the implementation was since I never read it.

Actually, Tome of Battle and Book of 9 swords are the same book. The book is Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords.

Then that would explain why you also didn't realize that at-will spells come from 3e as well. Although I never read the book that had it, I have been informed by other posters that a 3e book included a warlock class that had at-will powers. Furthermore, there was a 3e book that included martial maneuvers (not sure if it was Tome of Battle or Book of 9 Swords. I never read either of those), but I'm not sure what the implementation was since I never read it.

Actually, Tome of Battle and Book of 9 swords are the same book. The book is Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords.

Thank you for the clarification. I've often heard it talked of, by both titles separately, but I've never read or owned a copy. More's the pity. Seems like a book that I would have liked.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

You really shouldn't speak for others. You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

Healing surge is part of a HP management that has very little in common with DDN system.

The skill system is so different in DDN that I fail to see a comparison : everybody is trained in anything in DDN. "Skill" are just a specialization bonus.If any character is confronted to complex quantum mechanics problems, he can make a check, even if illiterate and not having an idea of what "number" or "abstraction" mean.

At-will "spells" : 3.5 Warlock.

If you think my english is bad, just wait until you see my spanish and my italian. Defiling languages is an art.

I saw the best element of healing surges to be that they provided non-magical healing and that anyone could heal themselves out of combat.

Otherwise 4th ed functions exactly the same as 3.5e in my experience when it comes to healing.

That's interesting in your experience, as 3.5e had wand of cure light wounds; with the most efficient gold-to-hit-point ratio, a few of these and it didn't matter what level your group was, you were not running out of hit points until you were -dead-. First fight or 40th fight of the day, you still had max hit points walking into it. 4e gave you a daily allotment of hit points, which you only had access to a certain amount at a time. 3e gave you infinite hit points (and infinite healing, and night infinite healing spells if you wanted).

4th ed changed the cosmetic look to healing rather then a functional difference (IMO). The one new thing it did bring to the table was you didn't need a healer to heal you out of combat.

Except that 4e brought the idea of "you have this many hit points in a day, after that, you're up a creek sans paddle". Like I said, that limiting factor was one of the two main points of healing surges.

Again I never saw this as an issue in 4th ed. Especially when you consider items that let you share surges between players (making surges a party resource rather then a character resource). In LFR you got so many healing surges that you ran out of mod before you ran out of healing surges. In home games combats take so long after heroic tier that the limiting factor is real life time, not the number of surges the party has.

I have to try to not sound incredulous here. This is absolutely not how the game is meant to be played, from a mechanical point of view (see note 1). You should be fighting enough challenging encounters in an adventuring day that your group needs to play smart to even walk out with spare surges - let alone walk out alive. If you were not being challenged, then sure, healing is whatever, you're gonna live anyhow. Maybe that's your experience, but it's not how the game is meant to be played. The default for 4e is "difficult enough you need all your surges to make it thru the day if everything goes relatively well". If you or your group were not getting challenged, then again, of course healing surges won't matter. Any healing won't matter if it's a cake-walk.

Again. Due to the fact we disagree on the purpose of healing surges, we disagree on how well DDN's hit die replicate this function.

Healing surges are there to give you a daily allotment on healing. This changes the entire movement of the game. Now, instead of "will we survive this encounter" it's "will we survive this adventuring day" - or even "can we survive this adventuring day without having to turn back early because even tho the healer has heals, even tho we have healing potions, we are simply not going to make it without dying". This gives so much story functionality and flexibility in pacing as a DM it simply cannot be just tossed to the wayside as "eh, it wasn't really important".

Literally, I could increase or decrease the challenge of the next encounter without my players ever even knowing the difference, based upon keeping track of how many surges they had. This let me pace the story and adventure exactly how I wanted. It allowed me to say "yeah, you guys were trying to save the princess, but you took too many hits, you got your bottoms smacked, and you had to turn back before you could make it to the dragon, so...yeah, the princess got ate. you failed.". This allowed me to easily and fluidly, without any extra rules or decisions, put a possible fail condition in for the players beyond "oh, you're all dead". This further allows the idea of "failing forward" where even failing a task means the story can move forward - hard for the story to move forward if everybody is dead. This allowed an encounter that did not seem to be too challenging to actually -be- challenging in that it took a large allotment of party resources - something the players are keen of. It also meant that monster abilities or traps that directly took surges took away both a large amount of daily-alloted-hit-points, but also one less chance to get healed (with the bonus healing that usually comes with it). It also meant one less possibility of a second wind to get up after being knocked down in combat. It was scary without being a save-or-die effect.

Do Hit Dice do any of that? Absolutely not. They are a feeble mechanic for healing outside of combat with no healer. They are a mechanical replacement for wands of cleric-in-a-stick.

Note 1: I am not trying to say "you're playing the game wrongbadfun" If you and your players have plenty of fun with non-challenging encounters, more power to you! As long as you're having fun, that is what matters. The difference here though, is that other people - and by general assumption of having rules and hit points to begin with, I'll say "the majority of D&D players" - actually want the game to be challenging. That is the entire point of the rulebook: to allow a mechanical system to challenge players. Otherwise, why not just do group storytelling? Or if you really have a dice fix, why not play an incredibly rules-light game? I do not feel bad in saying that Dungeons and Dragons, by default game design, is meant to be challenging.

Supporting an edition you like does not make you an edition warrior. Demanding that everybody else support your edition makes you an edition warrior.

Why do I like 13th Age? Because I like D&D: http://magbonch.wordpress.com/2013/10/16/first-impressions-13th-age/

AzoriusGuildmage- "I think that you simply spent so long playing it, especially in your formative years with the hobby, that you've long since rationalized or houseruled away its oddities, and set it in your mind as the standard for what is and isn't reasonable in an rpg."

In 4E there were a host of abilities like Gravesite and Stream of Life that provided ample healing without the use of Healing Surges. If Surges were intended to limit overall healing between extended rests, they did a rather poor job.

In 4E there were a host of abilities like Gravesite and Stream of Life that provided ample healing without the use of Healing Surges. If Surges were intended to limit overall healing between extended rests, they did a rather poor job.

A "host"?

Hardly.

Few, VERY few, abilities allowed surgeless healing.

And most (if not all... but I'm not 100% sure) prior to Epic were Daily usage only.

You ignored the second part of the difference. Healing surges in 4e also limited magical healing.

Actually I addressed it earlier in my post.

I never saw this as an issue in 4th ed. Especially when you consider items that let you share surges between players (making surges a party resource rather then a character resource). In LFR you got so many healing surges that you ran out of mod before you ran out of healing surges. In home games combats take so long after heroic tier that the limiting factor is real life time, not the number of surges the party has.

In fact, many of the innovations of 4e were first tested in SWSE, including the way it handled skills and defenses (though 4e separated AC and Reflex).

I don't consider a science fiction roleplaying game to be D&D. While D&D and SWSE may have both been developed by WotC, I haven't heard of anyone using SWSE characters in their Dungeons & Dragons game.

I have been informed by other posters that a 3e book included a warlock class that had at-will powers. Furthermore, there was a 3e book that included martial maneuvers (not sure if it was Tome of Battle or Book of 9 Swords. I never read either of those), but I'm not sure what the implementation was since I never read it.

I guess the question comes down to: Does something WotC playtested in a couple of 3.5e books equate to these ideas being intrinsic to 3.5e instead of 4e? I personally don't think they do. But let's say for argument's sake they do. In this scenario the only thing 4th ed brought to the table were the AEDU system (which was WotC started abandoning in PHB3 and continued to abandon in Essentials), lack of racial ability score modifier penalties, skill challenges and treating NPCs as monsters. Two out of four of those design mechanics have been ported over by D&D Next. And I will be shocked if there are NO rules for skill challenges in D&D Next.

The thing is, while you are right that some of those things were in 4th, most of them were in 3.5 (or even 3rd Edition and in some cases 2nd Ed options) as well.

And if you don't think Healing Surges were largely about limiting daily healing (in direct response to the Cure Light Wounds Wand issue) then you need to go back and re-read the design notes for 4th Edition.

That one example, which I think is legitimate, is amusingly the one you are most mistaken about.

While it might have been a goal. I feel it is a goal they failed to meet.

You should be fighting enough challenging encounters in an adventuring day that your group needs to play smart to even walk out with spare surges - let alone walk out alive.

This is simply not possible when playing the 4th ed adventure modules or playing the Scales of War adventure path due to the number of hours in a day.

The default for 4e is "difficult enough you need all your surges to make it thru the day if everything goes relatively well".

Unfortunately the adventure modules they released are not difficult enough to provide that challenge. They certainly succeed in dragging out the fights. But being challenged isn't possible.

LFR was just as bad.

I could increase or decrease the challenge of the next encounter without my players ever even knowing the difference, based upon keeping track of how many surges they had.

I'm glad to hear 4th ed functioned this way for you. I do recall getting to do something similar when I was writing my own adventures. However I never had to write adventures for Paragon tier.

Unfortunately we're currently playing through WotC's modules where the default combats do not provide this challenge (in the time we have available to play. We do, of course, find ways to roleplay).

If you and your players have plenty of fun with non-challenging encounters, more power to you!

At this stage I'm pretty much having fun DESPITE the rules. The lengthy combats have just dragged the whole edition down for me.

I'll say "the majority of D&D players" - actually want the game to be challenging.

I wish it was. I can't remember the last time I was worried I was going to die in a 4th ed game. Well there was that time I collapsed an iceberg onto my character. But even then it was only a matter of time before I rolled a nat 20 and woke back up (Warforged).

I do not feel bad in saying that Dungeons and Dragons, by default game design, is meant to be challenging.

D&D Next looks like it will be bringing back the challenging feel of 3.5e for my table.

It's funny you say in 4th ed hit points are a daily resource not an encounter resource. I disagree with this on a functional level. But let's say I'm wrong. Let's say hit points DO function as designed and are a daily resource in 4th ed. They're also a daily resource in 5th ed. You simply get less hit points then 4th ed gives you.

In 4E there were a host of abilities like Gravesite and Stream of Life that provided ample healing without the use of Healing Surges. If Surges were intended to limit overall healing between extended rests, they did a rather poor job.

Except surgeless healing, while not limited by healing surges, was either much lower than normal healing, or was a daily ability, sometimes both.

Let's check those 2 you quoted specifically.---------------------------------------------------------Gravesite, Cleric level 6 utility, dailyClose Burst 3The burst creates a zone that lasts until the end of the encounter. You and your allies gain a +2 power bonus to damage rolls against enemies in the zone. Whenever an enemy drops to zero hit points in the zone, you and each ally in the zone regains 5 hit points.----------------------------------------------------------Already, some heavy restrictions are in play here.

1.It's daily2.An enemy has to die while within the zone for the healing to trigger.3.Only allies who are in the zone get the healing.4.It's 5 hit point at level 6.5.The zone can't be moved without some magic item or noncleric resource.

---------------------------------------------------------------Stream of Life, Cleric level 6 utility, dailyPersonalYou take ongoing 5 damage(save ends). This damage can't be reduced in any way. At the end of your turn, you can choose not to make a saving throw against this ongoing damage. Whenever you take the ongoing damage, an ally within 5 squares regains 15 hit points.---------------------------------------------------------------A little better than the above. But still a few issues.

1.It's daily once again.2.The Cleric gives himself ongoing damage. It's only 5, but it adds up.3.The ally recieving the healing must be within 5 squares. If for any reason there's no one within 5 squares of you when your turn starts, or there's no injured ally within 5 squares, the haling is wasted but you take the damage anyways.

So yes, there is surgeless healing, but it still came at some heavy restrictions.

In 4E there were a host of abilities like Gravesite and Stream of Life that provided ample healing without the use of Healing Surges. If Surges were intended to limit overall healing between extended rests, they did a rather poor job.

A "host"?

Hardly.

Few, VERY few, abilities allowed surgeless healing.

And most (if not all... but I'm not 100% sure) prior to Epic were Daily usage only.

The Cleric had one at-will surgreless healing, but it required the Cleric to hit an enemy, and the ally who wants the healing to hit the enemy as well, and the healing was only 2+CHA. SO again, not much at all, and took the Cleric's standard action.

In 4E there were a host of abilities like Gravesite and Stream of Life that provided ample healing without the use of Healing Surges. If Surges were intended to limit overall healing between extended rests, they did a rather poor job.

A "host"?

Hardly.

Few, VERY few, abilities allowed surgeless healing.

And most (if not all... but I'm not 100% sure) prior to Epic were Daily usage only.

In addition to the two I mentioned, a brief check reveals Hymn of Resurgence for temp HPs, Beacon of Hope, and Consecrated ground. Admittedly there are Daily powers in there, but the bottom line is making a surgeless healer is quite doable in 4E. I've already come up with close to half a dozen abilities in that department. How many do you really need in addition to Surges before healing is no longer limited by mere Surges? Do the math on Gravesite in any fight with minions. You don't need any other healing sources in that fight.

I guess the question comes down to: Does something WotC playtested in a couple of 3.5e books equate to these ideas being intrinsic to 3.5e instead of 4e? I personally don't think they do. But let's say for argument's sake they do.

The question is not one of what is intrinsic. As I said, at-wills come from 3e, but 4e polished up the rules for it. 3e likely would have done the same thing had it continued. And one might say that it has done so and has continued through the existence of PF. Rules get better implemented or dropped over time, and these rules do show the evolution of 3e into 4e the way the Player's Option books from 2e show the evolution from 2e to 3e.

In this scenario the only thing 4th ed brought to the table were the AEDU system (which was WotC started abandoning in PHB3 and continued to abandon in Essentials),

Actually, while 4e was the first edition to bring about the AEDU ability structure, both D20 Modern and SWSE had been using unified structures before then through their talent and feat progressions. 4e simply came up with a new structure and also unified the BAB and Save bonuses in the 1/2 level mechanic.

lack of racial ability score modifier penalties, skill challenges and treating NPCs as monsters. Two out of four of those design mechanics have been ported over by D&D Next. And I will be shocked if there are NO rules for skill challenges in D&D Next.

Although I think it's likely they will be included, I really won't be surprised if skill challenge rules get left out. I see it as a 40-60 kind of thing. Enough people have complained about skill challenges and seen them poorly implemented that if we do see skill challenge rules, they may be quite different from those presented in 4e.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

You really shouldn't speak for others. You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

In 4E there were a host of abilities like Gravesite and Stream of Life that provided ample healing without the use of Healing Surges. If Surges were intended to limit overall healing between extended rests, they did a rather poor job.

A "host"?

Hardly.

Few, VERY few, abilities allowed surgeless healing.

And most (if not all... but I'm not 100% sure) prior to Epic were Daily usage only.

In addition to the two I mentioned, a brief check reveals Hymn of Resurgence for temp HPs, Beacon of Hope, and Consecrated ground. Admittedly there are Daily powers in there, but the bottom line is making a surgeless healer is quite doable in 4E. I've already come up with close to half a dozen abilities in that department. How many do you really need in addition to Surges before healing is no longer limited by mere Surges? Do the math on Gravesite in any fight with minions. You don't need any other healing sources in that fight.

Edit: Most of these stack with Astral Seal as well.

Just a note: Temp HPs are not healing. You really should edit the temp HP powers off that list.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

You really shouldn't speak for others. You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

Unfortunately we're currently playing through WotC's modules where the default combats do not provide this challenge (in the time we have available to play. We do, of course, find ways to roleplay).

Oh goodness, I am so sorry. As much as I enjoy so many aspects about 4e (but far from every aspect), I can easily admit that the pre-written adventures published by WoTC for 4e are...well...I simply cannot actually recommend them to anybody for any reason. I had to play through one (Revenge of the Giants) and as an experienced 4e DM, the entire time I was thinking "oh god, this is so incredibly, horribly bad. oh wow." and it had nothing to do with the DM at the time (who did his best).

I wish it was. I can't remember the last time I was worried I was going to die in a 4th ed game. Well there was that time I collapsed an iceberg onto my character. But even then it was only a matter of time before I rolled a nat 20 and woke back up (Warforged).

To be fair, one of the -things- about Warforged is that they don't die - the whole machine schtick. They can still be destroyed with coup-de-grace and "splash damage" from area attacks though (or ongoing that they cannot successfully save against while incap'ed).

I am currently in a homebrew campaign, 6 (7-hour) sessions in, with 5 player deaths (and 2 more that could have been, as they were abandoned and making death saving throws at the end of the encounter). This is with a group of experienced players that roll fairly optimized (but not charops min-maxed) characters. This is with one and a half house rules (inherent bonuses is a half house rule; the other is gain only 1 surge per day but all deaths occured after a single day of adventuring from full resources).

It's funny you say in 4th ed hit points are a daily resource not an encounter resource. I disagree with this on a functional level. But let's say I'm wrong. Let's say hit points DO function as designed and are a daily resource in 4th ed. They're also a daily resource in 5th ed. You simply get less hit points then 4th ed gives you.

I don't see how this can be the case. If you have healing pots, or remaining cure-x spells, you have hit points, for forever and a day and then a week after that.

Supporting an edition you like does not make you an edition warrior. Demanding that everybody else support your edition makes you an edition warrior.

Why do I like 13th Age? Because I like D&D: http://magbonch.wordpress.com/2013/10/16/first-impressions-13th-age/

AzoriusGuildmage- "I think that you simply spent so long playing it, especially in your formative years with the hobby, that you've long since rationalized or houseruled away its oddities, and set it in your mind as the standard for what is and isn't reasonable in an rpg."

In 4E there were a host of abilities like Gravesite and Stream of Life that provided ample healing without the use of Healing Surges. If Surges were intended to limit overall healing between extended rests, they did a rather poor job.

A "host"?

Hardly.

Few, VERY few, abilities allowed surgeless healing.

And most (if not all... but I'm not 100% sure) prior to Epic were Daily usage only.

In addition to the two I mentioned, a brief check reveals Hymn of Resurgence for temp HPs, Beacon of Hope, and Consecrated ground. Admittedly there are Daily powers in there, but the bottom line is making a surgeless healer is quite doable in 4E. I've already come up with close to half a dozen abilities in that department. How many do you really need in addition to Surges before healing is no longer limited by mere Surges? Do the math on Gravesite in any fight with minions. You don't need any other healing sources in that fight.

Edit: Most of these stack with Astral Seal as well.

Just a note: Temp HPs are not healing. You really should edit the temp HP powers off that list.

Admittedly there are Daily powers in there, but the bottom line is making a surgeless healer is quite doable in 4E. I've already come up with close to half a dozen abilities in that department. How many do you really need in addition to Surges before healing is no longer limited by mere Surges? Do the math on Gravesite in any fight with minions. You don't need any other healing sources in that fight.

Edit: Most of these stack with Astral Seal as well.

This is charops vacuum sealing at it's finest. How about Gravesite on an encounter where the terrain is constantly shifting? During an encounter when you have to run away from something? In an encounter where the enemies are content to pick you off from behind superior cover at range?

Even assuming you can make a singular one-class-one-build example of an efficient paragon-tier surge-less healer, that is a single class, and a single build within that class. Hardly enough to say "oh, this gamewide mechanic doesn't actually work".

Supporting an edition you like does not make you an edition warrior. Demanding that everybody else support your edition makes you an edition warrior.

Why do I like 13th Age? Because I like D&D: http://magbonch.wordpress.com/2013/10/16/first-impressions-13th-age/

AzoriusGuildmage- "I think that you simply spent so long playing it, especially in your formative years with the hobby, that you've long since rationalized or houseruled away its oddities, and set it in your mind as the standard for what is and isn't reasonable in an rpg."

In 4E there were a host of abilities like Gravesite and Stream of Life that provided ample healing without the use of Healing Surges. If Surges were intended to limit overall healing between extended rests, they did a rather poor job.

A "host"?

Hardly.

Few, VERY few, abilities allowed surgeless healing.

And most (if not all... but I'm not 100% sure) prior to Epic were Daily usage only.

In addition to the two I mentioned, a brief check reveals Hymn of Resurgence for temp HPs, Beacon of Hope, and Consecrated ground. Admittedly there are Daily powers in there, but the bottom line is making a surgeless healer is quite doable in 4E. I've already come up with close to half a dozen abilities in that department. How many do you really need in addition to Surges before healing is no longer limited by mere Surges? Do the math on Gravesite in any fight with minions. You don't need any other healing sources in that fight.

Edit: Most of these stack with Astral Seal as well.

Just a note: Temp HPs are not healing. You really should edit the temp HP powers off that list.

There's only one, and that is the one where it is predicated.

Ok. So let's analyze this. You've found "half a dozen," so 6 powers that heal without needing surges. How many classes are those powers spread over? How many of them are dailies (because you admitted that some are)? How many of them, if in the same class, are likely to get swapped out for higher level powers as you level? And what tier are we talking about (because surgeless healing seems like it would be a nearly inherent epic tier quality while it would be rarer at lower tiers)?

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

You really shouldn't speak for others. You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

Admittedly there are Daily powers in there, but the bottom line is making a surgeless healer is quite doable in 4E. I've already come up with close to half a dozen abilities in that department. How many do you really need in addition to Surges before healing is no longer limited by mere Surges? Do the math on Gravesite in any fight with minions. You don't need any other healing sources in that fight.

Edit: Most of these stack with Astral Seal as well.

This is charops vacuum sealing at it's finest. How about Gravesite on an encounter where the terrain is constantly shifting? During an encounter when you have to run away from something? In an encounter where the enemies are content to pick you off from behind superior cover at range?

Even assuming you can make a singular one-class-one-build example of an efficient paragon-tier surge-less healer, that is a single class, and a single build within that class. Hardly enough to say "oh, this gamewide mechanic doesn't actually work".

How many encounters are going to have shifting terrain? When you've got surgeless healing, what are you going to have to run from? My D&D game is on its third module with practically nothing content to pick us off at range from behind cover. You're using the most exceptional circumstances to try and disprove my point. I've only brought up low level abilities from Clerics, nothing more. If a single build within a single class is that effective at eliminating the Healing Surge barrier, how much more well eliminated would it be if one were to expand the scope of analysis beyond heroic Clerics?

I'm no expert at 4E Charop, and even I can poke holes in the Healing Surge as a healing cap theory.

In 4E there were a host of abilities like Gravesite and Stream of Life that provided ample healing without the use of Healing Surges. If Surges were intended to limit overall healing between extended rests, they did a rather poor job.

A "host"?

Hardly.

Few, VERY few, abilities allowed surgeless healing.

And most (if not all... but I'm not 100% sure) prior to Epic were Daily usage only.

In addition to the two I mentioned, a brief check reveals Hymn of Resurgence for temp HPs, Beacon of Hope, and Consecrated ground. Admittedly there are Daily powers in there, but the bottom line is making a surgeless healer is quite doable in 4E. I've already come up with close to half a dozen abilities in that department. How many do you really need in addition to Surges before healing is no longer limited by mere Surges? Do the math on Gravesite in any fight with minions. You don't need any other healing sources in that fight.

Edit: Most of these stack with Astral Seal as well.

Just a note: Temp HPs are not healing. You really should edit the temp HP powers off that list.

There's only one, and that is the one where it is predicated.

Ok. So let's analyze this. You've found "half a dozen," so 6 powers that heal without needing surges. How many classes are those powers spread over? How many of them are dailies (because you admitted that some are)? How many of them, if in the same class, are likely to get swapped out for higher level powers as you level? And what tier are we talking about (because surgeless healing seems like it would be a nearly inherent epic tier quality while it would be rarer at lower tiers)?

All of these powers are heroic level Cleric powers. Hymn of Resurgence is Encounter, Gravesite and Stream of Life are Dailies. and I'd have to check my Cleric's character sheet to give you the exact info on the others.

I'm no expert at 4E Charop, and even I can poke holes in the Healing Surge as a healing cap theory.

Well surges as a cap is rather false. However, surges as a limiter isn't. Which is really the point, because the game can't make you have X number of encounters to drain your resources. You no longer have unlimited potion healing, or unlimited CLW wand healing. You have some healing that is surgeless for going beyond the expected number of encounters, or for more difficult enounters, but magical healing is no longer strictly unlimited.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

You really shouldn't speak for others. You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

I'm no expert at 4E Charop, and even I can poke holes in the Healing Surge as a healing cap theory.

Well surges as a cap is rather false. However, surges as a limiter isn't. Which is really the point, because the game can't make you have X number of encounters to drain your resources. You no longer have unlimited potion healing, or unlimited CLW wand healing. You have some healing that is surgeless for going beyond the expected number of encounters, or for more difficult enounters, but magical healing is no longer strictly unlimited.

The posted sentence I take issue with is: "Healing Surges served two purposes: To provide scaled healing (so that the same cure spell didn't cure the wizard to full but cure the fighter for maybe a quarter of the damage he had recieved) and to limit the amount of healing a character could recieve in a day."

If Surges are intended to limit the amount of healing a character can receive in a day, they do a poor job of it. That's my point.

All of these powers are heroic level Cleric powers. Hymn of Resurgence is Encounter, Gravesite and Stream of Life are Dailies. and I'd have to check my Cleric's character sheet to give you the exact info on the others.

I already showed you why Gravesite and Stream of Life are not very good healing powers last page. Let's check some others.

---------------------------------------------------Consecrated Ground, Daily Level 5, ClericClose Burst 1The burst creates a zone that lasts until the end of your next turn. Any enemy that starts its turn within the zone takes 1d6+CHA radiant damage. If you or any ally of yours is bloodied and starts his or her turn in the zone, he or she regains 1+CHA hit points.Sustain Minor:The zone persist until the end of your next turn.----------------------------------------------------So many things keeping this from being a good healing power.

1.Daily2.Close burst 1 zone that does not follow the Cleric and can't be moved from where it's placed without some sort of nonCleric resource.3.It only heals allies who start their turn in the zone, and it's a small zone, so it makes anyone who wants the healing bunch up, something any enemy with a burst attack will love.4.It only heals allies if they're half health or below.5.It only heals allies for 1+CHA hit points. That's not going to help you much at all.6.It uses a Standard action to use.7.It only lasts for one turn, unless you sustain minor, which means giving up uses of your Healing Word(you know, good healing) or your mvoe action to keep using it.

Hymn of Resurgence is not a surgeless healing ability. It gives temp, that's something different that goes away when a battle is over.

You're using the most exceptional circumstances to try and disprove my point.

Not really.

Even discounting shifting terrain, keep in mind the only times you get the healing is if an enemy dies withing that one immovable 3x3 area. SO a few enemies with ranged attacks completely destroys that healing option(since the healing is peanuts, usually a single attack negates any healing you may have gotten.

All of these powers are heroic level Cleric powers. Hymn of Resurgence is Encounter, Gravesite and Stream of Life are Dailies. and I'd have to check my Cleric's character sheet to give you the exact info on the others.

I already showed you why Gravesite and Stream of Life are not very good healing powers last page. Let's check some others.

---------------------------------------------------Consecrated Ground, Daily Level 5, ClericClose Burst 1The burst creates a zone that lasts until the end of your next turn. Any enemy that starts its turn within the zone takes 1d6+CHA radiant damage. If you or any ally of yours is bloodied and starts his or her turn in the zone, he or she regains 1+CHA hit points.Sustain Minor:The zone persist until the end of your next turn.----------------------------------------------------So many things keeping this from being a good healing power.

1.Daily2.Close burst 1 zone that does not follow the Cleric and can't be moved from where it's placed without some sort of nonCleric resource.3.It only heals allies who start their turn in the zone, and it's a small zone, so it makes anyone who wants the healing bunch up, something any enemy with a burst attack will love.4.It only heals allies if they're half health or below.5.It only heals allies for 1+CHA hit points. That's not going to help you much at all.6.It uses a Standard action to use.7.It only lasts for one turn, unless you sustain minor, which means giving up uses of your Healing Word(you know, good healing) or your mvoe action to keep using it.

Hymn of Resurgence is not a surgeless healing ability. It gives temp, that's something different that goes away when a battle is over.

Please, keep the examples coming. I'm enjoying shooting them down.

You keep looking at individual powers as opposed to seeing how they work synergisticly. Single examples are easy to shoot down. As a whole, and bearing in mind these are just examples within ten levels of a single class derived from a single character as opposed to an in depth review of the class' capabilities, they begin to show a larger picture, one you seem determined not to take into account.

All of these powers are heroic level Cleric powers. Hymn of Resurgence is Encounter, Gravesite and Stream of Life are Dailies. and I'd have to check my Cleric's character sheet to give you the exact info on the others.

I already showed you why Gravesite and Stream of Life are not very good healing powers last page. Let's check some others.

---------------------------------------------------Consecrated Ground, Daily Level 5, ClericClose Burst 1The burst creates a zone that lasts until the end of your next turn. Any enemy that starts its turn within the zone takes 1d6+CHA radiant damage. If you or any ally of yours is bloodied and starts his or her turn in the zone, he or she regains 1+CHA hit points.Sustain Minor:The zone persist until the end of your next turn.----------------------------------------------------So many things keeping this from being a good healing power.

1.Daily2.Close burst 1 zone that does not follow the Cleric and can't be moved from where it's placed without some sort of nonCleric resource.3.It only heals allies who start their turn in the zone, and it's a small zone, so it makes anyone who wants the healing bunch up, something any enemy with a burst attack will love.4.It only heals allies if they're half health or below.5.It only heals allies for 1+CHA hit points. That's not going to help you much at all.6.It uses a Standard action to use.7.It only lasts for one turn, unless you sustain minor, which means giving up uses of your Healing Word(you know, good healing) or your mvoe action to keep using it.

Hymn of Resurgence is not a surgeless healing ability. It gives temp, that's something different that goes away when a battle is over.

Please, keep the examples coming. I'm enjoying shooting them down.

You keep looking at individual powers as opposed to seeing how they work synergisticly. Single examples are easy to shoot down. As a whole, and bearing in mind these are just examples within ten levels of a single class derived from a single character as opposed to an in depth review of the class' capabilities, they begin to show a larger picture, one you seem determined not to take into account.

It's 1+Cha hit points when your bloodied in one immovable area. The most that will ever heal is about...9-10 hit points by Epic Tier, assuming you have a post-racial starting Charisma of 20. There are way better uses of your Standard action that that pile of crap healing.

Also, yes, single examples are easy to shoot down. I shot down 3 examples and asked for more.

Also, yes, it is one build of one class. The Cleric is the only class in 4e with more than 1 surgeless healing power, maybe. And msot of them suck, as I've proven to your current 3 examples. The only decent ones are the Cure x Wounds, but that's because the healing is based of your surge value, which IIRC is still a Standard action with a range of Melee Touch.

All of these powers are heroic level Cleric powers. Hymn of Resurgence is Encounter, Gravesite and Stream of Life are Dailies. and I'd have to check my Cleric's character sheet to give you the exact info on the others.

I already showed you why Gravesite and Stream of Life are not very good healing powers last page. Let's check some others.

---------------------------------------------------Consecrated Ground, Daily Level 5, ClericClose Burst 1The burst creates a zone that lasts until the end of your next turn. Any enemy that starts its turn within the zone takes 1d6+CHA radiant damage. If you or any ally of yours is bloodied and starts his or her turn in the zone, he or she regains 1+CHA hit points.Sustain Minor:The zone persist until the end of your next turn.----------------------------------------------------So many things keeping this from being a good healing power.

1.Daily2.Close burst 1 zone that does not follow the Cleric and can't be moved from where it's placed without some sort of nonCleric resource.3.It only heals allies who start their turn in the zone, and it's a small zone, so it makes anyone who wants the healing bunch up, something any enemy with a burst attack will love.4.It only heals allies if they're half health or below.5.It only heals allies for 1+CHA hit points. That's not going to help you much at all.6.It uses a Standard action to use.7.It only lasts for one turn, unless you sustain minor, which means giving up uses of your Healing Word(you know, good healing) or your mvoe action to keep using it.

Hymn of Resurgence is not a surgeless healing ability. It gives temp, that's something different that goes away when a battle is over.

Please, keep the examples coming. I'm enjoying shooting them down.

You keep looking at individual powers as opposed to seeing how they work synergisticly.

Can you give a synergistic example? Because, in the absence of a good example to the contrary (one that isn't highly conditional), I'm finding EL's posts rather convincing.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

You really shouldn't speak for others. You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

You're using the most exceptional circumstances to try and disprove my point.

Not really.

Even discounting shifting terrain, keep in mind the only times you get the healing is if an enemy dies withing that one immovable 3x3 area. SO a few enemies with ranged attacks completely destroys that healing option(since the healing is peanuts, usually a single attack negates any healing you may have gotten.

Melee minions and AoE can make a mockery of Gravesite's limitations. I've seen 50 HP in a single round with the healing focus (whatever its name is).

All of these powers are heroic level Cleric powers. Hymn of Resurgence is Encounter, Gravesite and Stream of Life are Dailies. and I'd have to check my Cleric's character sheet to give you the exact info on the others.

I already showed you why Gravesite and Stream of Life are not very good healing powers last page. Let's check some others.

---------------------------------------------------Consecrated Ground, Daily Level 5, ClericClose Burst 1The burst creates a zone that lasts until the end of your next turn. Any enemy that starts its turn within the zone takes 1d6+CHA radiant damage. If you or any ally of yours is bloodied and starts his or her turn in the zone, he or she regains 1+CHA hit points.Sustain Minor:The zone persist until the end of your next turn.----------------------------------------------------So many things keeping this from being a good healing power.

1.Daily2.Close burst 1 zone that does not follow the Cleric and can't be moved from where it's placed without some sort of nonCleric resource.3.It only heals allies who start their turn in the zone, and it's a small zone, so it makes anyone who wants the healing bunch up, something any enemy with a burst attack will love.4.It only heals allies if they're half health or below.5.It only heals allies for 1+CHA hit points. That's not going to help you much at all.6.It uses a Standard action to use.7.It only lasts for one turn, unless you sustain minor, which means giving up uses of your Healing Word(you know, good healing) or your mvoe action to keep using it.

Hymn of Resurgence is not a surgeless healing ability. It gives temp, that's something different that goes away when a battle is over.

Please, keep the examples coming. I'm enjoying shooting them down.

You keep looking at individual powers as opposed to seeing how they work synergisticly.

Can you give a synergistic example? Because, in the absence of a good example to the contrary (one that isn't highly conditional), I'm finding EL's posts rather convincing.

Healing Focus, Consecrated Ground, Stream of Life. Once bloodied, the Cleric heals for more damage than he is taking and delivers healing to allies. Gravesite with AoE damage. There's a superior focus that combines extra healing with an extra large radius on radiant powers. At level 11 that stacks quite nicely with Solar Wrath.

I've seen 50 HP in a single round with the healing focus (whatever its name is).

The Weapon of Healing/Healer's Brooch?(one of thsoe two?)

They only adds they're enhancement bonuses. At most, that's an extra 12 HP. Not very much. You'd be better off just throwing a healing word at them.

And that's 50 HP they only get if they die within the zone. Ranged attackers can just stay back and negate that healing with ranged atatcks or area burst attacks.

Astral Symbol of the Holy Nimbus.

Symbol of the Holy Nimbus grants temp. That's not surgeless healing. And that's only when you use Healing Word.

Astral Symbols don't get any extra healing.

Beacon of Hope is the Encounter Power the Cleric uses to do that. While it is a daily the Symbol makes it a burst 5. The point of the symbol is the increased range. It isn't my character, so I'm not 100% familiar with the order in which the Cleric uses the powers to keep the party alive.