Many “modern” teacher are used to tell people that there is something like a Buddha-nature a inherent goodness or possibility to gain awakening.

This is somehow a very nice message which gives a lot of hope, but the problem of hope is that we easily rest on it. As long as there is something to hope, we do not start to act.

There is often the discussion if we might live in a good or bad outward condition to understand Dhamma. There are also countless speculations if Dhamma is even reachable sometimes.

But I guess all this questions are very useless as they in fact, do not change our conditions. The only use of them, could be better should be, that we honor or use our present conditions as good as possible.

A fundamental base of the Buddha Dhamma is the insight that all compounded things (Dhammas) are conditioned. Not a single Dhamma incl. the teaching and the way to awakening is unconditioned.

If we play with the idea of “there is always the condition to awakening” we cut of the used urgency to make the best out of our condition. That is at least independent of our de facto condition.So might have the idea, that every being will gain awakening by it self naturally, but that is not in line with what the Buddha taught and would be somehow nothing else as the believe in a determining flow of karma.

Our present situation is caused by our past intentions and maybe the support of wise people which leaded us to correct our intentions.

When we are somehow, and to meet on Dhamma discussion is actual a special condition already, come to see that we are in a blessed situation, its very needed to have gratitude for it.

Gratitude that we are able to see and come in contact with it, gratitude in direction of the teachers and friends at least to the Buddha and gratitude for our past deeps which made this possible.

If we think that things are coming by them self, or even that we had a right to come to this condition, we easily give it now value. If we do not give our present condition (inwardly as well as outwardly caused by past intentions as well) the value as needed we easily do not use them to better our condition further.

That means, we could easily, like most people do, just waste our merits (gain through past good/skillful intention). When we have millions, we easily waste it and forget that there was at least much work and suffering behind before and it is much easier to go further if we are in a good situation. If we are poor already and might see a way, we would even not be able to walk it.

We can compare this with a son who has gained a great heritage from his father. Here I remember a simile:

There was a wealthy man who possessed many crores worth of silver, many crores worth of gold, and many crores worth of pearls. In order that these properties might not be lost during bad times, he buried the bulk of them in the ground, and kept only sixty-thousand worth of money, rice, paddy, wearing apparel, and ornaments for immediate and ready use.

This wealthy man had six sons. On his death, the six heirs divided the properties among themselves in six equal shares. The properties buried beneath the earth were also similarly allocated. These buried properties could be secured by the heirs only if the owners personally dug them out the ground.

One of the sons was full of greed. He was not content with the pro- perty he could immediately use. He was satiated with the desire for the buried property and could not bear to wait long in order to get it. He therefore exerted himself and dug up Ihe property, thus becoming a wealthy man.

One of the sons was full of energy. He did not look on the prospect of having to exert himself for days and months as burdensome. He therefore put forth effort and applied himself to the work of unearthing the buried treasure, thus becoming a wealthy man.

One of the sons was strong in his attachment. From the moment he received the heritage, his mind ways always on the property. Sleep and food were of no consequence, so greatly was his mind attached to the pro- perty. He thus put forth effort and dug up the buried property, becom- ing a wealthy man.

One of the sons was clever and ingenious. He contrived to construct machinery and dug up the buried property, thus becoming a wealthy man.

One of the sons lacked greed. He imagined himself to be well-off with even ten thousand worth of property. He had no desire to acquire the buried property. He was satisfied with the property that he received for his immediate use.

One of the sons was a spendthrift. He squandered all the property, not even leaving the price of a spade for the exhumation of the buried property. He sank in to bad ways and was eventually banished from his native place.

In this illustration, the Buddha resembles the wealthy father. Sila-vi- suddhi and the pariyatti dhamma resemble the treasure available for immediate use. Jhana and abhinna, which constitute citta-visuddhi, resem- ble the buried silver treasure. The four lokiya pafina-visuddhi, such as ditthivisuddhi, resemble the buried gold treasure. The lokuttara-riana- dassana-visuddhi resembles the buried pearl treasure. The layfolk and bhikkhus of the Buddha Sasana resemble the six heirs.

The point in discussion whether there are good or not good conditions is to understand that all in Samsara is conditioned, impermanent not lasting. The good things as well as the bad things. But to break through this unsatisfactory reality of beings, this gives also the possibility to break out of this frame.

It might be that our present situation does not allow any higher insight or to gain even any fruit, but simply the gratitude and faith in and of conditions would lead us to better our situation in the future.

There are countless beings which are for sure not able to escape and even not able to change there conditions in a better way. We, as we are in contact with the good teachings should think twice about it and lose no time in maintaining doubt that all things are conditioned and therefore start to act in the right direction.

The frame work of conditions, makes it possible to go beyond them. If we are able now, later, tomorrow, in ten year, next life or in eons is not a relevant and important question, but to start to make the first step and keep the aim in mind as good as possible. One step after the other, even a thousand mile journey starts with the first step and is continued just by the next step.

It does not make sense to think if we would reach the aim or not in a timeframe we might use to call it our existence. And this is the second problem which could arise if we have the useless thought of the idea that we are not able to do. We would be just worried, depressed and waste our time and even the last recourses of past merits.

Conviction in that we are responsible for our intentions (actions) come with gratitude realized trough our present situation compared with the situation of others for example. Not a single being is equal with the other, its just the frame work that it is the same as well as the reality of suffering, its cause, its cessation and possibility for a way out.

So how do you think is your condition and what hinders you to but effort to turn it to a better?

There are some “outwardly” conditions like:

paccantaro – living on a place where Buddha Sasana does not flourish

How could one change this situation? Change the place, or put effort so that it might flourish (which would require the understanding and the right tnedency first)

micchaditthi – born/associate among people with wrong view

That goes much along what is called the pre-requisite for the wing of awakening. The admirable friend. What if there are no around, would the teaching alone help?

vitalingo--persons with congenital, defects such as idiocy, etc.

To change that situation is maybe not easy but if such a person would be integrated in a culture that goes in the right direction, he might gain a good support in simply following what others do.

This “outwardly” conditions for others would also bring some possible effort if ones mind is very directed into “compassion” for others which is also a field for paramis to better even his own situation.

It’s a very complex framework, this conditions thing, but if we get the message no way of return.

It not today, gives it tomorrow another try. On and on, remember the past and compare it to the present and try to see that nothing comes from it self as nothing goes from itself.That will increase our conviction in kamma and our confection in what is called right view as the starter of the eightfold path which has a lot of connections to gratitude.

And what is wrong view? 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father , no spontaneously reborn beings; no brahmans or contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is wrong view...

those ->

"One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into right view: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort, & right mindfulness — run & circle around right view."

— MN 117

"In a person of wrong view, wrong resolve comes into being. In a person of wrong resolve, wrong speech. In a person of wrong speech, wrong action. In a person of wrong action, wrong livelihood. In a person of wrong livelihood, wrong effort. In a person of wrong effort, wrong mindfulness. In a person of wrong mindfulness, wrong concentration. In a person of wrong concentration, wrong knowledge. In a person of wrong knowledge, wrong release."This is how from wrongness comes failure, not success."— AN 10.103

We actually do not live in a society where gratitude has much value, so why don’t give it a change and turn from a simply consumer of past merits to a producer of merits and lift up even the conditions for other, not just using what is avaliable for our own sucess (which would fail in any way)? A kind of letting go that our situation and tendency is the best (even a possible), of course.

Hard critic and discussions which are intented in refusing are like always wellcome.

Just that! *smile*...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

Hanzze wrote:We actually do not live in a society where gratitude has much value

I agree. I think gratitude, the development of paramis and merit making are extremely important but neglected aspects of the path - particularly in the west.kind regards,

Bej

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.” - Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:in mountain clefts and chasms,loud gush the streamlets,but great rivers flow silently.- Sutta Nipata 3.725

I would say in the east as well. Even there is still a faith believe in making merits, people do not understand what it means to make merits and mistake it in a simply worldly way. Of coures there is much worldly success out of it in the east, what we can see by our self. They transfomed this traditional effort very well into western material values. 1000 years back (on the materialistic side) and mastered in just 30 -40 years! Can the west do the same in regard of mental mastering?

Modern people would never be easy to bring up so much effort and "sacrifies" to gain things. There is just the missing of the right object on one part of the earth and the missing or value of the benefit of effort on the other part on earth. Somehow a situation which needs a lot of effort that not both just addopt the wrong and forget the own qualities and objects. Otherwise the over all situation does not look very well.

Just that! *smile*...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

Hanzze wrote:1000 years back (on the materialistic side) and mastered in just 30 -40 years! Can the west do the same in regard of mental mastering?

I don't know. I have been watching the phenomena of mindfulness entering the mainstream and 'mindfulness-based cognitive therapy' gaining credibility in psychiatry, psychology and medicine with a great deal of interest. Perhaps it is "the thin edge of the wedge".

Otherwise the over all situation does not look very well.

Well, yes. The vast majority of people are adrift in samsara. So long as we take advantage of our current conditions for our progress on the path - that is the important thing. and in so doing we inadvertently become beacons of light for those others who are seeking in the dark.kind regards,

Ben

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.” - Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:in mountain clefts and chasms,loud gush the streamlets,but great rivers flow silently.- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Well, yes. The vast majority of people are adrift in samsara. So long as we take advantage of our current conditions for our progress on the path - that is the important thing. and in so doing we inadvertently become beacons of light for those others who are seeking in the dark.

Well said, well said.That is a great point, even if we would not be able to gain insight at least, we would be able to give good samples even if it might be still hard for us. Faith in what is missing or not seen, increases with good samples.Like Monks are usally reminders on Arahants in case of simply there behaviour and appearence. Of good quality characteristics of others even if they are not perfect yet.

We tend to seek for perfect things before we are able to addopt a way rather then to use what is avaliable and a good sample.

Just that! *smile*...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

Hanzze wrote:This is somehow a very nice message which gives a lot of hope, but the problem of hope is that we easily rest on it. As long as there is something to hope, we do not start to act.

On the other hand if there is hope for something not attainable then only futile distractive business will result.

That is "sad" but true. Such conditions are more usual as those which care a possibility. Thinking on the Brahma world (counciousness) for example or other states of mind. The "barkwook seller realm".

Hanzze wrote:There is often the discussion if we might live in a good or bad outward condition to understand Dhamma.

Bad condition is dhamma and good condition is dhamma. So there is no difference.

That is something that goes along with the first point above.

Hanzze wrote:But I guess all this questions are very useless as they in fact, do not change our conditions.

Questions are usless yes but what are conditions that could be "yours"?

Those which are caused by "myself" as well as the support out of gratitude which "myself" had received.

Hanzze wrote:So how do you think is your condition and what hinders you to but effort to turn it to a better?

Any condition not being "mine" is perfect.

Not as long as there is even if only subtil till a "mine".

Just that! *smile*...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

Hanzze wrote:But I guess all this questions are very useless as they in fact, do not change our conditions.

Questions are usless yes but what are conditions that could be "yours"?

Those which are caused by "myself" as well as the support out of gratitude which "myself" had received.

Nothing is caused by self, not even "self" in quotation marks.

Hanzze wrote:

Hanzze wrote:So how do you think is your condition and what hinders you to but effort to turn it to a better?

Any condition not being "mine" is perfect.

Not as long as there is even if only subtil till a "mine".

If there is perception and/or feeling as if there were "a subtle" then practice is futile. But so called practice which cultivates the idea of "I" and "mine" and "my goal" and "I caused that karma" is futile from the outset. Why? Because there is cultivation of what is just an idea from the outset to make it appear as if being more than just an idea

Questions are usless yes but what are conditions that could be "yours"?

Those which are caused by "myself" as well as the support out of gratitude which "myself" had received.

Nothing is caused by self, not even "self" in quotation marks.

If there is no more sensation of it yes, its just that such absence can be also well constructed by the "self" it's even more present and effecting as if there is a normal irgnorance. There is of cause the way of ignoring the ignorance, but this also conditioned path does not lead to cessation of dhukkha but is mostly just supported by past merits which will be ending one day. Like the ballon has its limits and falls down on the ground the barkwood consciousness will sooner or later end in an very low realm again.

Hanzze wrote:

Not as long as there is even if only subtil till a "mine".

If there is perception and/or feeling as if there were "a subtle" then practice is futile. But so called practice which cultivates the idea of "I" and "mine" and "my goal" and "I caused that karma" is futile from the outset. Why? Because there is cultivation of what is just an idea from the outset to make it appear as if being more than just an idea

So you are telling us about something already seen? So simply without perceptions. I guess its not easy to teach a paccekabuddha path. But continue it might better the conditions.

Just that! *smile*...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

If there is perception and/or feeling as if there were "a subtle" then practice is futile. But so called practice which cultivates the idea of "I" and "mine" and "my goal" and "I caused that karma" is futile from the outset. Why? Because there is cultivation of what is just an idea from the outset to make it appear as if being more than just an idea

So you are telling us about something already seen?

There is nobody anything is being told to. And what is the meaning of "already seen"? If affirmed what does the affirming? And if negated what does the negating? And on the basis of what could there be affirmation or negation of "already seen"? On the basis of remembrance which is mere consciousness arising from fabrications in the sphere of ignorance.

Hanzze wrote:So simply without perceptions. I guess its not easy to teach a paccekabuddha path. But continue it might better the conditions.

No teaching. There is simply echoing of sense consciousness by means of consciousness based on bodily stirrings.

The unconditioned path the the unconditioned. Well what a nice dream /idea. So what has been the preconditions to reach such an insight? Bodily stirrings? Caused by?

Thanks for you example to show how easy one could mis to value his conditions and waste it (possibility) by missunderstanding their means. Looks like we are a good team.

Just that! *smile*...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

Hanzze wrote:So what has been the preconditions to reach such an insight? Bodily stirrings? Caused by?

Nothing has been reached.

No doubt.

ground wrote:

Hanzze wrote:Thanks for you example to show how easy one could mis to value his conditions and waste it (possibility) by missunderstanding their means. Looks like we are a good team.

Perception is understanding of conditions in the sense that conditions manifest by means of perception.

that seems to be a light but just a candelabra , still not a floodlight. But tell me more of this case without de-percepting you possibilities before it comes to an for many useful output.

I really like your "Zen" style or the "out your boat away" style which is actually very needed at least but not accessable for the most as the preconditions are missing and one who gives up the boat before entering the stream might be lost for a long time.

Let me give a sample of three beings which are in such a case.The two humans are two heedless deities who like to teach each other, the third is a being who does not even know what they are talking about and in the middle, the stream is a symbol for the eightfold path.

All three are not a little aware of the value and the possibilities of conditions and all three seems to have good arguments.

This is another sample of how one can waste his even good conditions for a long time:

Last edited by Hanzze on Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

Just that! *smile*...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

That is a remarkable aspect which is in maybe in opposite to the OP claims or not. So it would need "further laborintation" Or did you just share some hope? Or in somehow "If you use it good it will be good..."

Just that! *smile*...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

That is a remarkable aspect which is in maybe in opposite to the OP claims or not. So it would need "further laborintation" Or did you just share some hope? Or in somehow "If you use it good it will be good..."

No hope. No fear. Just echoes.If what echoes matches "your" condition then you understand the echo and that can be called "good".If what echoes does not match "your" condition then you do not understand the echo but through this not-understanding-the echo you will be following your condition anyway and that can be called "good", too.Nothing to change. All is good as it is or is not.

So are the echos caused by just remainings or by a child fascinated from the effects it is able to produce? What is the cause of an echo?

Just that! *smile*...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

HanzzeThis idea that the end result is inevitable is just like the saying "all roads lead to Rome," on a limited understanding you should be able to take any road and reach Rome, but in reality you could still be 10,000 miles away. this sort of message should always be joined with following the right roads of practice.but there is also the issue of the right/perfect conditions, and the need to create them externally which is just as dangerous. Both of these can lead to inaction or inappropriate/dissident action.

How do you suppose gratitude be expressed in the situation here on this forum? would this include paying attention to what is said; refraining from fallacy arguments, assuming another's agrument... or something else? and how would having gratitude and faith change anything if they are not acted upon? but how do you relate gratitude with "mundane" right view; particularly "there is what is given"?

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them. But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion … ...He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.John Stuart Mill

Why?Because water absorb water, and water reflect stone.What is the same is absorbed, what is different is reflected.So purity of The Buddha Nature, reflect all.

How do it reflect?It reflect like a 0 who reflect all nombersIt reflect like a silence who reflect all noizesIt reflect like a void who reflect all formIt reflect like a canvas who reflect all colorsIt reflect like a stability who reflect all mouvement...

Cittasanto wrote:HanzzeThis idea that the end result is inevitable is just like the saying "all roads lead to Rome," on a limited understanding you should be able to take any road and reach Rome, but in reality you could still be 10,000 miles away. this sort of message should always be joined with following the right roads of practice.

Of course Cittasanto, its just that following the right road of practic is not easy to be seen as long one has not reached the road. So faith alone is no secure sollution. Better is just to look at the next step (right intention? right action?) and not so much what's happen around and how this picture might appear (oh I am on the road, or oh I am maybe on the wronr road). Of coure a good view around could give the first intention that it would be good not to rest on this situatation as it is somehow not really the best and secure.

but there is also the issue of the right/perfect conditions, and the need to create them externally which is just as dangerous. Both of these can lead to inaction or inappropriate/dissident action.

I don't thinks so, the right conditions come by right actions. We should not take samples or perceptions of what is a good condition as our reference, but simply continue, maintain, develope the wholesome, so even in a bad condition, it would lead to better conditions.Focusing on actions or intentions can never lead to inaction, while not honore or value ones conditions or thinking that one is already in a good condition for shure will cause a kind of feeling of security and that will cause a lose or not attaining of better conditions.

How do you suppose gratitude be expressed in the situation here on this forum?

A very good place to train gratitude. It needs somehow to see the generosity of others first. To see this generosity of others one needs to try to do it by one self, only then one is able to understand the support of others and their "sacrify". It's a good place to train Dana, to give without the expectation (that other understand, honor, take it to heart, tolerate...)And it's also a good place to learn how hard it actually can be to give freely without an expectation. So in somehow, we need to learn to receive first. One might think receiving is easy, no it isn't. One how is not able to receive freely given, is not able to give freely. His judgements are still much belove gratidute, generosity and what is meant by Dana.

It's a place of mudita, a place of pattidana, a place of pattanumodana, a place of dhammassavana, a place of dhammadesana not to forget also a place for apacayana and even for the simple wholesomedeeds like veyyavacca it is a perfect place. And while joining this meritious deeds, is always a place for Bhavana (to look on his own intentions and to uproot silly thoughts and attachemts caused by personality), at least even the highest meritious deed, is possible ditthijukamma. And all this actions will lead not only our self but also those who are able to receive to a better condition and maybe one day it will be even a place where we simply just meet people with right view, keep the danger of association amoung people with wrong view limited. This is one way how we can change our conditions with our actions, but we can also abstain from such actions if they are falling just on soil which has no nutrient content to let the seeds grow.

The effort is how ever founded in learned gratitude and this needs the acceptence that there are gift, there are results and there is no stability (look at right view)

would this include paying attention to what is said; refraining from fallacy arguments, assuming another's agrument... or something else? and how would having gratitude and faith change anything if they are not acted upon? but how do you relate gratitude with "mundane" right view; particularly "there is what is given"?

Paying attention is very connected with concentration, something that is the last chain of good action in the wheel of the eightfold path. Something we can train all the time. Putting aside mental states of affection, aversion on clincing to views and start to read it one more time. To expect concentration from others will suddenly burn our seeds of Dana, so never expect anything when you share it.

"refraining from fallacy arguments" one is not able to refrain from fallacy arguments, if the mind is deluded or clincs to wrong views its mostly just the appearance of feelings of desire or aversion which could help in such a case. If one knows that it is fallacy, he would not argu. So its also a place to cultivate compassion. Compassion needs the understanding then one self is even in the same situation like all others. Without this understanding our compassion is nothing but simply high-handedness. We are all here to get right of moha, we would be silly if we think that we are free of it yet.

"assuming another's agrument" there is no such thing as assuming if the mind is free from the evil roots, so assuming will be always in the sphere of the actor not the receiver. But if the receiver assums that somebody else assumes, he would in the best case fight fire with fire.If there is a situation which seems to be not takeable not given freely, no need to take it. As long as you do not take it, it'S simply not yours. So in simply words, do not take given things personaly (like Dana), some are useable, some are not worthy to take... but non of this "gifts" is a personal gift (the german word "Gift" means poison, funny, isn't it). A gift (something that is given) will be poison if you take it person, in what way ever. If you take any kind of gift even if it is poison, and there is no more attachment or no orld wound (that is a very importand point) this poison can not penetrate. So when a gift hurts, than you have taken it from a personal position. All gifts are here to take away the personal believe. So when ever it hurts, its a good sign that one has taken it wrong.

"and how would having gratitude and faith change anything if they are not acted upon?" Ohh, even a bad sample is useful for the wise like the best sample is useless for the fool. I would not worry to much about that. If gratitude is not gratitude, how can it help? If faith is just blind faith, how could it help? All in all for the one who is in such a condition, a bad condition. We might even not be able to help him out, but we can also learn and remember what the wise meant by their saying.

"but how do you relate gratitude with "mundane" right view; particularly "there is what is given" " Starter opened a good topic The place of dana in the path & its development which might clear many things in this regard.Traditional the teachings of gratitude is payed much effort, time and resources, as if there is no understanding of it or taken wrongly, there is no right view even of the smalles amount but just any other development of different personal views amoung the eight path. So gratitude and right view are two things which are so strong connected, that it is even for "new" comer the most importand topic to understand. Also of foxes which stuck on the path will find the solution based of gratitude which starts mostly with the parents and the relation to them.

A person of gratitude learned generosity will not easy miss the path and that is even no question of religion. But simply right view.

Regarding the assuming and take it personal problem my some of my experiances amoung the boards of fine material beings be helpful (Googlyana. Such a training is very helpful and dedicated in honor to all those who helped me to understand this realm better.

How ever, if you train it for a long while you will easily understand The Bull Elephant and develope gratitude for his returns.

May this post better my own conditionMay this post better your conditionMay this post better the condition of all paticipatorMay this post better the condition of all visitors and reader as wellMay this post better the conditions of the boardMay this post better the conditions of all beings

Just that! *smile*...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_