US Auto makers may become extinct, caused by Unions

time.
I forgot nothing but once again you try and spin it. Using the veto is not
all that easy, especially when the congress is controlled by the other
party.

cannot
Ya see, I said that I didn't forget but once again, you spun it and again,
it was fully expected. If Clinton vetoed every bill with crap in it,
nothing he wanted to do would ever make it thru congress.

so is

Gore
IIRC. the idiot you helped to get elected projected an even greater surplus
and have yet to see him revise that one either, even after putting us into
record increases in dept.

Once again, either you think we are all idiots or are just one yourself.
While many of these companies have shut down operations in this country, it
never had a damn thing to do with personal income tax and in most cases, the
wealthy corporate execs and owners are still here.

Hahahahahaha, you truly are an idiot. These numbers have nothing to do with
what you are saying. This is the median income of 4 person homes where the
income shown is the total income from all persons over 15 in the household.
Are you taking lessons on supplying meaningless facts from MAX? Now either
show us a report stating that in fact your median income job creation is
based on this figure or show us the individual income figure where it is
actually based on. I would probably even limited it to 19 year old male
income because that is actually what they are basing this claim on.

behind
what
I go by what I see in the paper, on line, and what the news tells me which
is still far more than anything you have come up with.

economic
The economy was still in the toilet when Clinton took office and when he
left, was still much higher than when he started but that was 6 years ago.
While the economy is better than it was after the Bush disaster, it is still
not what it should be, despite your smoke and mirrors attempts to make it
look otherwise and while I also don't blame Bush for everything, he is doing
nothing to help correct it either.

More right wing bullshit and again, not what I said. What was Clintons
lowest approval rating???? What is the rating of the one you helped to
elect??? Face it Miles, you helped to elect an idiot and it does not look
good for your party during the mid-term elections and I guess that is why
you feel the need to keep bringing up Clinton. I hate to break it to you,
but he has not been president for 6 years now.

lol, Congress has little to do with a veto except to override it, which
is pretty rare.

Then I suppose that holds true for Bush Jr. as well for not vetoing
spending bills right? Your BS doesn't hold up if you look at the dems
voting record in congress under Clinton or Bush. Neat thing about that.
It's public record if you take the time and interest. But then, you
never do.

Ahh....defense by deflection. Ok so they both suck with budgets. At
least you're in agreement that Clintons surplus wasn't real and the
budget was blown by HIM during his own years. Otherwise he would have
revised it sometime during his years. Instead Clinton said there was a
surplus right till the end when records show spending exceeded revenues
every year. Do you care? Hell no. At least instead of praising
Clinton like you have you're now reduced to saying Bush is worse. Thats
progress at least!

Ah yes, we should include the income of toddlers to be per TBones math
comprehension. The fact remains that the US median income is WAY above
your 25,000 figure. Care to back that figure up?

So do tell. Lets see some real numbers that agree with your claim that
the USA median income is $25,000 or less. I wanna know where the hell
you pulled a number like that from?

The economy was falling and economists warned of a collapse during
Clintons last year. Instead of doing anything he touted how great the
economy was. Why? Campaign year. You wanna whine about Bush not doing
anything then do the same for Clinton.

Approval ratings equate to doing a proper job in the WH? How does a
decent approval rating make what Clinton did with China and N. Korea any
better? Or is it the fact that most in this country pay little
attention to such things...making the approval rating meaningless. What
you are doing is admitting your vote can be bought. Whats important in
politics is not important to you.

not
LOL, I must say Miles, I think I reply to you just to see how far you can
push the envelope of reality. While overrides are pretty rare, that is not
what I'm talking about and you know it. First of all, if the President
vetoed everything that had crap like this in it, nothing would ever get
done. Second, by putting them in important bills, if the President vetoed
it, all you would hear is crap about how the president doesn't care about
the country for vetoing such an important bill. And third, if the president
kept vetoing all of these bills, the other side (especially if it is in
control of congress), will never let bills important to the other side get
to the President.

again,
You keep making these claims and yet, never back up a word of it yourself.
The point is, that Bush is the president and the congress is controlled by
the right at the moment. The left has no choice but to follow along because
if not, nothing they propose will even have a chance.

surplus
into
Not at all. just an injection of reality. You keep whining about Clinton
because you have nothing positive to say about the man you helped put into
office. And after 6 years, that's pretty sad.

Again, you would be wrong. At least Clinton was able to balance the budget,
even if congress chose to overspend. Bush can't even get that far.

I am in agreement of no such thing because you are completely full of shit.
Please demonstrate exactly how Clinton blew the budget and not the right
wing congress.

Spin it anyway you like, there is no need to revise for pork barrel
spending, especially when there is no way to know how much will be done year
to year. The funny thing is that I can praise Clinton and Bush still is
worse, far worse, LOL!!!

household.
I am still waiting for you to come up with some valid figures for a change.
Median HOUSEHOLD income has little to do with median personal income as it
is a total income of the entire family so the link you provided is
worthless. The 25,000 figure came form you and Jerry about a year ago and
little has changed since then.

which
Want adds in the paper for one. You are the one NOW claiming that it is so
much higher, lets see you back it up with some valid data for a change.

Who cares about Clinton NOW, he is no longer the President and hasn't been
so for 6 years and BTW, I'm not the one who keeps bringing it up, you are.
Perhaps you should follow your own advice and instead of still whining about
Clinton, how about talking about the problems with our current president.

What exactly did Clinton do that is any worse than what Bush is doing now???
How many of our men did Clinton get needlessly killed or wounded? How many
billions did Clinton flush down the toilet while doing it? Approval ratings
have a lot to do with mid-term elections and I think that is what scares
you.

Sorry Miles, but that truly defines you. The man you voted for did a shit
job in his first term with nothing to suggest he would do any better later
and yet, you voted for him anyway and for nothing more than tax cuts for the
rich. Any way you want to try and spin it, as in the union thread, you
have demonstrated to the group your level of greed and complete lack of
concern for anything but yourself.

Oh geez. So Dems vote for all the spending bills but it's not really
their fault huh? Well at least you admit they have no backbone but we
knew that already.

Pretty easy to say you have a balanced budget by simply drawing up
numbers on paper. Seven years went by with deficit spending under
Clinton. Why did he not revise his budget for the 8th year to match the
trend? Oh ya, he needed to show you a 'balanced' budget and a 'surplus'.

Your local want ads show the USA median income? lol. I did back it up
but you've decided that median income needs to include everyone
including those too young to even work and have an income.

The point is TBone that you are a huge hypocrite. You whine about many
things that were acceptable from others.

TBone wrote:
>Some nonsense
I realized your problem TBone. You have confused budget surplus or
budget deficit with actual spending vs. revenues.
Take a look here.
http://www.toptips.com/debt_history.htm
Tell me what years in which Clinton was in office did the debt go down
indicating a surplus? Creative accounting huh? Will you ever realize
there never was any surplus based on actual revenues vs. spending? You
have yet to show me any actual revenue and spending figures to support
your continued claim of some surplus. Just a CNN story that says there
was. Sorry TBone, I'll take the actual figures of what was spent vs.
revenues taken in during those years.

Entire industry or particular companies? Unions have causes many
companies to fold or bail from particular markets or move much of their
production overseas in order to compete in a global market. Phelps
Dodge closed down several mines in Arizona in the 80's as a very direct
result of unions demanding high wages when the copper market was tumbling.

Aw, gee, Miles, you gave clear and factual evidence . . now they have to
consider the possibility they could be wrong. ;)
And not only large industry has suffered. Let's not forget the thousands of
smaller manufacturers that going unionized has closed.
Budd

Miles, I'm curious. Perhaps I'm missing something here and I'm sure that it
has to do with my belonging to a couple of union's. Having said that, please
explain to me how it is that folks always expect the union worker and only
the union worker to take a pay cut. A union does not go in and demand
anything, it is negotiated between the employer and the union. The union and
the employer agree to a wage structure, benefit package, health, grievance
procedure, discipline procedure, absenteeism policy, safety, vacations, and
the list goes on. The employer and the management team run the show.
Decisions are made by management not the union. If the decisions are good do
the union workers get a bonus? Of course not. If they are poor decisions is
that the union's fault? It sure seems to be, cut the employees wage is the
cry. Maybe I'm too old or stupid, but I do not understand how bad decisions
made in the board room have to be paid for by the employee.
With regard to the Phelps Dodge, I have no knowledge as to what the
particulars were, but as in any story there are two sides. A "wall street"
theme does come to mind though. As I have said in the past some unions or
union locals suck!! Others seem to work well with the companies that
employee them. Let me make one point. Union's are made up of individual
members, majority rules. If a member is unhappy with the representation he
or she is receiving there is a procedure in place that he or she can use. It
is called a ballot box, you elect your representatives. Further if enough
members are unhappy, there is decertification, you vote the local out.
Roy

Who said always the union? Most of the time when cuts are needed
they're done on both sides. You are making a very common but flawed
assumption. You are assuming that in all situations there is an equal
balance of powere between the union and the corporation. When the
balance of power is tipped either towards the union or towards the
corporation one side wins, the other loses. In many cases unions have
gotten so big and so powerfull they squeeze a company right out of
business or to take other measures such as moving operations elsewhere.
Normally market supply and demand of labor keeps things in balance and
the pay benifits in check. If a company pays you too low then you vote
with your feet. Companies must compete for your talent or skill. In
some markets this balance doesn't work and a union is needed to balance
it. However, if the power tips the scale to favor the union its every
bit as bad for the general public as if its tipped in favor of the
corporation.
Tell me, do you feel none or very few union workers are over paid? I
know several such as a college kid making $18/hour to put saran wrap on
meats because he belongs to the meat packers union. That is WAY above
market value for that job and it costs the rest of us.

For decades copper prices had been climbing. Unions negotiated decent
yearly wage increases. Global copper prices in the 70's and 80's fell
sharply. The US copper mines could simply not give the 10% raise along
with other benifits that the union wanted as they had done for years
prior. Phelps Dodge said they'd have to agree to a 10% cut or the mines
would close. The union felt they were bluffing and held their ground.
The mines all closed and every single worker was out of a job. The
mines still have never reopened. This is a classic mentality of so many
unions. Too much power that tips the balance away from natural market
balance.

to
only wrap meat seems excessive.
Miles you be the company and I'll be the union. We sit down with the goal of
reaching a agreement. We bargain and do it with our eyes wide open, there is
give and take and compromise on both sides until a agreement is reached that
both side can live with. You as management get a book or contract, you use
one half and I get to use the other to ensure that we both live up to the
terms of that contract. Where during the length of our contract do things
get tipped?

Just a thought, as I said I know nothing about Phelps Dodge. The union
struck and then were locked out or the mines were closed. I'll make the
assumption that it was some time ago, 10 or more years. If the mines had any
value why didn't they reopen after the strike was broken with non union
workers? As I said, a bit of "wall street"?

So? If sales profits continue to fall and costs such as health
insurance continue to skyrocket then the high benifits being paid out
have to come down. You can stick to your union ways and say no way and
force the company to move more overseas. Your choice.

Here you prove my point that you assume that the balance of power is
equal between both sides such that a contract is negotiated equally.
Often thats simply not the case. You don't believe that some unions are
powerfull enough to gain leverage in their favor when negotiating that
contract?

Thats because you assume the terms of any contract negotiated is
perfectly balanced and neither side has any bargaining leverage against
the other. My family has been in the construction business for decades.
Unions can and have shut down many construction companies especially
smaller ones that lack the capital to fight the big unions.

Thats often what unions do because they gain enough power to leverage
contracts in excess of market value.

As soon as the union gets so big and powerfull they control far more
than just one company. They represent an industry. Companies loose any
leverage to negotiate an individual contract. How is a small grocery
store supposed to be able to negotiate against the grocers or meat
packers unions when they are but one store? The balance is tipped to
favor the union.
Unions also have a habit of shutting down non-union companies regardless
of whether that companies benifits are already above the unions. How?
They subsidize union companies in an area allowing that company to bid
jobs under market. They keep it up until the company folds up. Makes
no difference if the company already is paying above union wages.

They ran for awhile with non-union workers who crossed the lines.
People were shot at and deaths did occur. Has a pretty good effect of
keeping others from working. These mines are in small towns. When the
mine dies the town dies.

Miles, where is everybody's indignation when a company like Walmart comes in
and put's 100 or more small companys or stores out of operation? There is
none unless it affects them personally. But that is okay? Sure you get a
bunch of jobs, mostly part time with zilch for benifits.

How about the corperation that deliberatly wrecks part of itself?
A made a movie about the practice, called Wall Street with Douglas as the
lead. Read up on the Eastern Airline / Continental Airline horror show. I
believe that was run by a guy named Lorenzo out of Texas. Or one I was
involved with, Timothy Mellon of that wonderful Mellon family of PA and his
deal. He managed to wreck 3 railroads here in New England and NewYork.

If at all possible yes. What happens when costs such as health
insurance go up 30-60% per year? After several years of this somethings
gotta give and the contract may not be up yet. You can argue theres a
contract so not gonna budge and hope the company stays afloat.

Roy, what is your point? To bring up one example of a lousy company
isn't representative of the problem at large. Walmart is an example of
a company where the balance of power favors them. Is that to mean thats
always the case? You seem to not realize the extent of damage that
unions have done to many industries. I gotta pay $8+/lb here for a
decent steak because of the dang unions with their absurd meat packers
wages.

Not much. To idle it costs very little. IRS won't allow continued loss
write off's or the mine is deemed no longer a business. All thats
left is to write off the capital in the form of depreciation. The net
result is that if it's idle its a net loss, not a net gain.

And where have you seen a WalMart come in and destroy the Mom&Pop stores???
Back In Canon City, Co everyone screamed the same thing before the WalMArt,
"It'll destroy the the small stores!!!!"
And they were wrong. The only stores that went out of business were already
poorly managed. Today, there's about 25 new small businesses that have come
in and opened up since I moved away 6 years ago. I'd say you claim was worth
as much as the strike pay from the union I once belonged to, nothing.
Mom&Pop stores are specialty stores offering goods and services a
conglomerate store can't compete against, noyt to mention they generally
have a rather exclusive clientele.

Gee, have you considered the possibility it was the best way to avoid being
dominated or forced into bankruptcy

I'm sorry, I must have missed the signs that said,"closed discussion", "Not
an open forum", "Roy is the moderator", "roy's.alt.autos.dodge.trucks" and
"don't say anything against unions around Roy".
Go ahead and worship your god, the union, if you wish, Roy. I don't, won't,
and I can say what ever I want as long as I don't violate my ISP's
regulations. My postings do not violate those regulations.

No Budd, you missed the part that said "go argue with somebody else" But you
really didn't miss it did ya? You responded to my response to Miles. I
merely responded to your response to my post.
I'm sorry that you find it upsetting that I choose not to argue with you.

Gee thanks Budd, I guess if they continue to screw whineing babies like you
they can't be all bad. Maybe I'll join another.

By all means. Actually your posts of late are following your usual pattern,
and that is disappointing, but it is what it is.

No they are the same tiresome Budd get's insulted and pissed off, claims he
has been attcked, throws the religon card, blame's all his problems on
somebody or something, then goes into a snit and stops posting for a bit.
I just don't want to be part of it.
Are we done now.
Roy

No, I saw it, read it and understood it to indicate you consider yourself to
be superior to me and/or you think you can restrict whom I reply to or
comments I can make. The last time I checked this was still an open,
unmoderated forum . . .wait, I think you told a few people that when they
slammed you for your rude commetaries. Hmm, that makes it good old PKB,
doesn't it?
If it had been merely a comment to prevent an argument, you could have been
far more polite.
Upset? Whining? Nope, just giving MY viewpoint on the situation...oh, that's
what you consider to be "upset and whining". IMHO, it is you that whines
everytime someone says anything against your unholy master, the union.

And when will you decide to turn ALL your liberties over to others, Roy? Why
not just move to a socialist country and get it over with.
Why do you support organizations that restrict the freedom to work in a
chosen profession because one does not want to abide by union rules or pay
out monies to that organization? It's called a "Closed Shop", Roy, and it's
often kept me from having better jobs as I would be turned down for jobs I
was the best candidate for BECAUSE I WOULD NOT JOIN THE UNION. Oh, wait,
others don't matter, just your wallet, right? So, your union masters are
part of why I'm in the current financial condition I'm in because I applied
for a job with the Nickle Plate Line years ago and that was why I was turned
down.

Tough, Roy. Killfile me if it bothers you so much. I won't miss your
whinings in support of your wallet, or your insulting remarks about my
current state of health.

Roy, I was talking about "unions" not "religion", in case your early-onset
senility made you forget. Nor did I say I was insulted by a union or that
one violated my beliefs. Some time back I said a corrupt union screwed 1500
members over on two occasions, including myself. I also stated my beliefs
that unions are dinosaurs and no longer needed because they are usually more
corrupt than anything.
Does everyone have to follow your lead about unions? Can't a naysayer post
an opposing opinion?
Btw, did you ever consider that my DECISIONS to stop posting for periods of
time are for my benefit, not yours? I don't enjoy religious arguments, not
continuous insults like some folks do, so I take a vacation from it. I
didn't know I needed your permission. A few years back when I was offline
for a rather long period, several friends were concerned about my health, so
I now give notice of these vacations out of coinsideration for ther
friendship. Is that a bad thing to do?

Fine. I didn't twist your arm to force you to reply, did I? You CHOSE to
reply, so the fault IS yours.

That's up to you.
We were once friends, we got in a row, I apologized, but you don't seem to
have forgiven or forgotten.
I am the person I am. I try to be friends with everyone, try to help where I
can and I don't ask anyone to change to suit me nor will I change to suit
anyone. I ask only for the same respect anyone else would seek, to be
accepted for who I am.
I am opinionated and I am stubborn, but you already knew that and have known
it for years.
I am in bad health and it's getting worse, so it, or the medications, may
affect what I say or do, that's a part of getting older. I try to proof read
all my posts for that reason, but I am Human.
And if you can't handle that, then killfile me. Your recent comments on my
health and source of income were extremely insulting and proved only how
important your own wallet is to you.
But if I have more to say about unions, I will say it. If you choose to
reply, then don't blame me.

By posting "go argue with somebody else" indicated I was "superior" to you
or was attempting to "restrict" to whom you reply to?
How you twisted "go argue with somebody else" into anything else other than
I didn't desire to get into a argument with you is beyond me. You must have
been sitting at the keyboard for a couple of day's just waiting. It would
seem to me that you could have picked a better place to jump in, you are
looking pretty foolish imo
This is going to be one of your better tantrums, I can see it coming. Tell
ya what Budd, let's see if I was correct and you do run true to form.

Here is where you are insulted.

And I'm insulting?

Here's where ya blame somebody or something. You decided where and for who
you wanted to work. Maybe they thought you couldn't cut it.

Here we we go about you health. Although you are too self centered and
absorbed to notice, there are others here who have had and continue to have
health problems, some I'm sure more serious than yours. Most don't bother to
mention them constantly, they just continue on. Hell, you are unaware of my
health problems aren't ya?
See the difference between me and you is I live with them as best I can and
don't complain about them. Of course rolling a atv sorta brings them to the
fore. But it is what it is.

I would hope not.

Sure, all I said was "go argue with somebody else " But you decided to
continue.;

I can't believe you posted the above.

One of those notice's will be appearing soon, I'm sure.
>Is that a bad thing to do?

I posted "go argue with somebody else" and YOU rerplied!!!
Sorta tells me that YOU are looking for a argument. That's okay too. Knock
yourself out.

Here ya go. Gotta blame somebody.

Sure I have, and no I have not. If you recall, I was the one who sorta
encouraged you to return last time. Remember my remark about the Charger,
like magic you showed up.
Now we arrive at this point. As I said, disapointing

No, you are a bitter crybaby looking for attention. Now you have it. I'll
pay attention to ya through this thread and beyond if ya want.

No Budd, that is another "feel bad for me excuse". So typical

The paragraph below is beautiful. You state that my comments were extremely
insulting and then "you" end with a insult

I stand by those comments. So when was the last time you worked?
Budd the above couple of paragraphs are the same bullshit you always post.
It is your medication, it is your age, it is your health, it is this, it is
that, you are insulted and it goes on and on.
How about this Budd, I'm older than you and I have phyical impairments, and
take medication, so that is my excuse. See, now everybody can feel bad for
me and are also expected to excuse everything I post.
I suppose I should throw in a few <GBFG's> in here as well, but no need .
Nobody but you can take this seriously and if ya do that's okay too.

Damn, blame somebody!!!!!!!!
While I'm at it you have proven me correct. You did everything I said ya
would. True to form and so sad.
Remember what got ya to this point: "go argue with somebody else"
Roy

I found it to be demeaning and insulting. I have the right to be insulted
and to be offended, ya know.

Simple. You could have been more polite.

Yes, I did read the thread for a couple days to get the gist clear in my
mind and to see what direction it was going . . .something some others
should do.

<LOL>
Yes, I just responded in kind.

I thought you claimed to understand unions? You don't understand a "closed
shop"? Either join the union or else it's either not be hired or lose your
job if you are? I was told by the employer I would have to join the union to
be allowed to work there and if I refused I was no longer in consideration.
Now that's not placing blame, it's stating fact, Roy.

Well, gee, Roy, you better get your memory checked. I was asked about my
health problems way back when, and now, if I mention them its only when
asked, or some clown like you makes derogatory comments about them since
they have been made public.

as often as possible, I still work on my own vehicles in spite of the pain.
And not once have I mentioned the pain, etc. from those activities.

Then quit acting like you know everything about them.

Once again, Roy, where did I force you to reply?

I really don't care if you do or not.

Will it? You read minds now?

Yep, as was my choice. Did I force you to reply to that post?

Nope, just stating a differing opinion.

No, you did choose to reply, just like this toime.

Yes, it is disappointing, but you are part of the reason.

Nope, you're wrong.

No, Roy, I'm stating fact.

What does it matter? Remember, to you I'm just a slob, a loafer, a burden to
society, a leech draining away Social Security.
Btw, I stopped working on orders from my doctor, fyi, so stuff it.

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