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Liz Wolfe: Hey friends! A quick word about and from our sponsors. First off, as you know, we are sponsored by Chameleon Cold-Brew, my favorite iced coffee. The Chameleon Cold-Brew shelf at the Wegmans in Allentown, Pennsylvania is now totally sold out because of my visit last week, so they will need to restock. Check back there. Love Chameleon Cold-Brew!

Next up, sponsor Pete’s Paleo, let’s see what Diane and Pete had to talk about recently, and we will get on to the show!

Diane Sanfilippo: So, Pete, what’s new and exciting that is coming up soon from Pete’s Paleo that people can look out for?

Pete Servold: I’d say the thing that is next on the list that I am most excited about is actually teaming up with you and the 21-Day Sugar Detox. It really pairs well with the package that we currently offer, and we are just going to make substitutions on the vegetables for people that can’t have the starchy veg; and we don’t already cook with any dairy, or butter, or fruit, or anything like that, so its a great way for people that are doing the detox to have that extra helping hand, so they don’t have to worry about getting through those 21 days without making any slips.

1. Paleo Blogger Michelle Tam of Nom Nom Paleo [1:55]

Liz Wolfe: Alright, it’s me, Liz, back again. Welcome to episode 107 of the Balance Bites podcast! Today is going to be a super amazing day. My day is already 10 times better, because I just got on Skype with one of my favorite people on the planet, one of my favorite paleo bloggers, my favorite moms, my favorite friends, just all around favorite people. (Buttering her up a little bit here before we get started.) But I am here with Michelle, of Nom Nom Paleo, and I am super excited! Thank you so much for joining us, Michelle!

Michelle Tam: Well, thank you for having me. I’m super excited to be here too, because you are one of my favorite people.

Liz Wolfe: Oh my God. Oh my God.

Michelle Tam: {giggles}

Liz Wolfe: So I was going through a bunch of old blog posts, you know, because every once in a while I have to go back; I don’t know if you do this, you’ll have to tell me if you do this. Do you, like, go back to old posts, and you’re like “what was I talking about?!”

Michelle Tam: You know, I only do that when I get comments on old posts, because someone will ask me about an old recipe that I haven’t made in like 2 years, and I’ll be like, “Huh. I used to eat a lot of coconut flour!” {laughing}

Liz Wolfe: Yeah, right! {laughing} Same here!

Michelle Tam: I used to eat a lot of nuts, and you know, now things have changed. Sometimes I want to just respond to those comments and say, “You know, this post was from, like, 3 years ago, and I don’t really do this anymore!” {laughs}

Liz Wolfe: Stick with the new stuff. Just, start at the most recent post.

Michelle Tam: Yes. And the pictures are horrible at the beginning of my blogging journey, so sometimes I’m like, please, please don’t go back to my archives. {laughs}

Liz Wolfe: Oh my gosh. “Don’t look!” Well, I found an old comment. I think, probably the first time you and I had ever interacted, like, person to person, and it was an old blog comment. You commented on my blog, and I remember that day, and I was like “{gasp} I made it!” {laughing}

Michelle Tam: Oh, I was a big fan of yours! I was a big fan of yours and Diane. Because when I first started, you guys were who I used to read.

Liz Wolfe: Um, likewise. And I’m trying to remember the first time I met; I think I met your husband before I met you in person at the Crossfit games, probably 3 or 4 years ago; does that sound right?

Michelle Tam: You know, that does sound right, because I think he went with a group of people from our Crossfit box, and … I mean, I like Crossfit, but he’s really into Crossfit, so I think he was really excited to go to the games, and that was the first time he’d ever gone, and I remember him telling me, “Oh, I met Liz!” and I’m like “Oh, how exciting!” {laughing}

Liz Wolfe: {laughing} Wohoo!! Its like, “I met Henry!! It’s so cool!” And he had, like I saw that he had that camera around his neck, and you guys both just knock it out with the photography.

Michelle Tam: Well, you know, I take pictures, but Henry is like the fixer. I mean, his instructions to me are always to just take a gazillion, because he will find something.

Liz Wolfe: He’ll find the good one.

Michelle Tam: He will find something that he can fix. {laughs}

Liz Wolfe: Oh my gosh. It’s not easy.

Michelle Tam: No. It’s a lot of work. I think when we first started, I used to blog like several times a day, and then I went to daily posts, and now we’ve kind of gotten a groove where we do maybe 3 and if I’m kind of ambitious I might do 4 a week. But, now it’s kind of more doable, and its not crazy overwhelming, because you know it got to be where we would just never sleep, and we were tired and cranky, and we were like, this is not working for us.

Liz Wolfe: That’s not paleo, being tired and cranky!

Michelle Tam: No! No.

Liz Wolfe: Not even a little.

Michelle Tam: So I think now it’s a really nice workable way that we are doing it. That hopefully is sustainable.

Liz Wolfe: Alright, so let’s just jump right in and talk about everything that you’ve got going on. Because we have a ton of questions from listeners, and a bunch of stuff to tackle, but you’ve got a real life job, you’ve got an amazing blog, you’ve got a husband that works, you’ve got kids, and you have an app and a book coming out. So, just, first of all, let’s plug the app, lets plug the book, lets talk about what those are all about, and then lets talk about how the frick you do all of it!

Michelle Tam: Oh, well. So we do have an iPad cookbook app that has been out for a year, and, you know, we love it and I use it all the time, but I guess the new thing that we have in the pipeline is we have a new cookbook coming out in December, which is something that Henry and I both worked on really hard. I mean, I hope everyone really likes it, because we love it. It’s just packed with recipes, and cartoons, and pictures, and it’s really personal. It’s got our whole family in it. What we want to do is we want the book to make everyone really excited and the whole family to get on board with paleo. Its not necessarily super strict paleo, because there are some recipes that have a little bit of honey; but its not …

Liz Wolfe: {GASP} God forbid!! {sarcasm}

Michelle Tam: I know. But its also not like packed with desserts. And I have nothing against cookbooks packed with desserts, because I love them all. But this is just a book of how we eat as a family. And so, you know, it’s got some butt jokes in it {laughs}

Liz Wolfe: {laughing}

Michelle Tam: So we’re hoping that kids will be excited to flip through it, and say “Hey mom and dad this is what we want to make!” and even if you don’t have kids, it will still be a fun thing where everybody can flip through and find something that they want to make.

Liz Wolfe: Well it sounds like it is 100% you guys; no putting on airs, just your personality. You guys are so much fun to be around. You’re blog is so much fun to read, so I have no doubt that the book will reflect that, of course.

Michelle Tam: Well, I don’t know about that, but it is, I think, very much us.

Liz Wolfe: Come on, butt jokes!!

Michelle Tam: Good and bad, it’s got it all in there.

Liz Wolfe: Well, I think a huge strength that you guys have as a family; and you know, we’re talking about Nom Nom Paleo, we’re talking about your blog, http://nomnompaleo.com/, and everything that is growing out of that blog, but its also like, its about your family, and you’re personality as a unit, which is what makes it so much fun to read and so relatable, and I think it is why people trust you so much, you know, and look to you for guidance, or just as kind of a roll model for how to live this lifestyle with a busy life and a family, and everything else. Because, honestly, I have a dog, and I have some animals, but I’m going to tell you…

Michelle Tam: NO, you have a farm! And you have tons of animals! I don’t know how you do it. I could never…

Liz Wolfe: No-no-no. You put the goats in the barn, and right now I’m recording actually from Kansas City from my parent’s house because of our, we talked about this yesterday, our back country internet, and there were a bunch of; there were 5 stray dogs in my yard this morning. Five. And they are kind of like a pack of rapscallions (I’m on a tangent here) but this pack of, like scallywags that runs around and shows up every once in a while, and then you open the door and they run off, its not like the sweet little stray puppy that we were helping out a couple of months ago. But, so I left the goats in the barn, the chickens in the coop, and I drove in to Kansas City to record a podcast. You can’t do that with kids!!

Michelle Tam: You can’t, but when they are at school, you can do a lot of things.

Liz Wolfe: Ahhh.

Michelle Tam: You know, and also we have… Henry and I are really lucky because both of our parents live close by, and they like us, and they like our kids.

Liz Wolfe: {laughing}

Michelle Tam: So they help us a lot. Henry is a really great partner, and he helps with the blog, he helps with the kids, he sometimes helps with the cooking. {laughing}

Liz Wolfe: {laughing}

Michelle Tam: But he definitely helps. Like, I don’t clean. I don’t clean at all. That’s kind of my thing where I’m like, I hate cleaning, and so Henry kind of picks that part up because he thinks it’s disgusting that I’m okay with stuff everywhere.

Liz Wolfe: {laughs}

Michelle Tam: So, I think when people think we can do everything, like, I have piles of laundry all over the house. I mean, its clean laundry, but we have piles of laundry all over the house. I don’t really care if our house isn’t picture perfect in terms of being clean. We have Legos all over the floor. But, you know, it works for us. There are certain things that we don’t do as much anymore. Like, I used to watch so much TV, its not even funny.

Michelle Tam: So, like, just kind of cutting out some TV has made it so that we can blog, but literally, because I work 7 nights on and then I have 7 days off, and when I wasn’t working, I would just watch TV all the time. Like, I would watch marathons of the Real Housewives, and, you know, just whatever reality TV there was, and when I started kind of just picking and choosing what I watched, it just opened up so much free time.

Liz Wolfe: Probably a surprising amount of time. You kind of think you’re not sucking as much time of your life away with those things as you actually are.

Michelle Tam: But you totally are.

Liz Wolfe: You totally are.

Michelle Tam: And you can, and I think, especially if you are watching something on your TiVo or on your DVR, and it’s recorded and you’ve got episodes and episodes, you just don’t turn it off!

Liz Wolfe: Nu-uh.

Michelle Tam: And so I think that when we cut that out, and we just kind of did things that were important to us and our family, and just kind of keeping it really basic. You know, hanging out with our core group of friends and our family, it just got easier.

Liz Wolfe: Love that. Well, learning from you even more, already at this point, so I probably am going to need to pick maybe one set of Housewives to follow?

Michelle Tam: You know, I haven’t watched it in a while, but I do like New Jersey a lot.

Liz Wolfe: Okay. Perfect.

Michelle Tam: {laughs}

Liz Wolfe: Perfect! That’s what I was thinking too.

Michelle Tam: Yeah. I still think of all of them, they are probably the most authentic. Even though they are probably all fake.

Liz Wolfe: {laughs} They are total disasters. But it’s authentic.

Michelle Tam: They are all disasters. But they are authentic, I think.

Liz Wolfe: But it’s totally really. Okay, well let’s kind of back up a little bit, and just so, you know, to set a little bit of a platform for what we are going to talk about. We all know how much you have on your plate right now; tell us how you got there. How did this blog start? Where did this all come from?

Michelle Tam: Hmm, so, I think Henry kind of jumped on the Paleo bandwagon first. Because he’s always been kind of a dabbler into all things, you know, fitness, and he likes kind of, you know, tweaking how he eats and exercises just to see how things work. This all started after we both had kids, and I think we just kind of fell apart after we had kids, and we didn’t care about what we ate, and we didn’t care about exercising, and we felt terrible. We were in our early 30s, and we just were tired all the time, and I had this muffin top. So then we decided to just kind of jump on the health bandwagon. And I did this whole, kind of whole-grains, low-fat kick for a while, but I felt terrible, and I didn’t think I looked that great. And then Henry, I think, stumbled onto paleo through P90x, because he was doing p90x at home.

Liz Wolfe: {laughs} Nice.

Michelle Tam: I think he had a blog, which he kind of maintains not that often anymore, but it’s called Fitbomb, and for a while, he was just blogging about all the different people in P90x, and one of the people in the videos was Mark Sisson. And, when he started, you know, researching what Mark Sisson was up to for a blog post, he saw that Mark Sisson had now moved on to something called the Primal Blueprint, and when he looked into it, he was like, wow, this actually looks pretty cool, and it looks like something I could do, and the food looks great, and so he started doing it. He started doing Crossfit. He started feeling great, and like, he was starting to get totally cut, and here I was, doing crazy chronic cardio at the Y, and eating low-fat foods, and I didn’t feel great, and you know I was like, hmmm, maybe I’ll try what he’s doing. So then I did, and I felt great. And, I think in order to kind of figure out what I could cook, I started looking on the internet, and I started finding paleo blogs. Like, I remember Bill and Haley’s was one of the first.

Liz Wolfe: Yeah!

Michelle Tam: Yours and Diane’s, and I was like, wow this is really cool! And I’ve always loved food and food blogs, but I always thought it was too late to kind of jump in, but when I started eating paleo, I was like, wow, there isn’t one that kind of is exactly what I’m doing.

Liz Wolfe: Mm-hmm.

Michelle Tam: So, let’s just kind of throw up what I’m eating every day.

Liz Wolfe: Yeah, I mean, not actually throw up, but… {sarcasm}

Michelle Tam: Yes! Not actually throw {laughs} Post! Post about.

Liz Wolfe: {laughs}

Michelle Tam: And hopefully people wouldn’t throw up after they saw it.

Liz Wolfe: {laughing}

Michelle Tam: Some of those early pictures really are terrible, so really. Please don’t look at my archives. I think I started just posting what I was eating, because that was something that I had a lot of problems with. What do you eat? What do you eat for breakfast? What do you eat for lunch? What do you eat for dinner? And so I just started posting what I ate, and when I went out to eat, I would show what I would pick off the menu, and so I think it just kind of built from there. As it started getting more popular, Henry started getting more involved. Because, he would be like, “How can you put this picture up?” I’m like, “Because I don’t know how to fix it!”

Liz Wolfe: {laughs}

Michelle Tam: And so then he would start helping me with the pictures, and I think it got to be where I was like, I can’t do this anymore. If you want to help with the pictures, you need to help. And so then he started helping with the pictures, and it’s kind of grown from there.

Liz Wolfe: Okay. So, I’ve got two kind of technical; well I guess they’re not technical questions, but they are blog related questions. We’ve got some, like, functional food type questions, and then we’ve got some more, you know, how-to type questions. So, I’m going to ask you two things, and you can address whichever one in whatever order you want.

So the first one is, with regards to the graphic design: “Nom Nom has mad graphic design skillz” (with a z) “any tips for an aspiring graphic designer?” And the other question that is kind of related to this, as all of this was growing, you’ve still got this full time job. And the question is: “You are a pharmacist; have you experienced difficulty reconciling dispensing drugs with advocating the paleo approach and is there anywhere where that intersects for you?”

Michelle Tam: Okay, so those are both really good questions!

Liz Wolfe: I thought so too.

Michelle Tam: The first one is super easy to answer, so I’ll do that one first about the graphic design of the blog. So, my number one tip, is you just need to marry somebody…

Liz Wolfe: {laughs}

Michelle Tam: Or date somebody who is really, really good at photos and graphic design, and you are totally set! {laughs}

Liz Wolfe: {laughing}

Michelle Tam: Because that is what I did. Because the design and all of the pretty stuff about my blog is Henry. Like, I try to … I like to say I’m the food and the snark, and Henry is the design.

Liz Wolfe: You’re the ideas man.

Michelle Tam: Yes, I am. Yes. And then in terms of you know, being a pharmacist and whether or not that, you know, how that meshes with advocating the paleo approach. Um, you know, personally I don’t really struggle with this because of the type of pharmacy job that I have. I actually work as an inpatient hospital pharmacist at a busy hospital here, and most of the people that I am treating, they are all patients, and most of them are in the ICU or they are in the OR, or they are in the ED, and by this time, people actually really do need drugs.

Liz Wolfe: Mm-hmm.

Michelle Tam: And so, I feel like I’m, you know, I have an important role at the hospital, because these are not really people who can really make the choice of, you know, fixing themselves through food or not. It’s not really a choice anymore. They need, you know, IV drugs to keep their heart pumping, and to keep them alive.

Liz Wolfe: Mm-hmm.

Michelle Tam: And so, I am actually okay with that. I might not feel that way if I had a different job where, you know, I was dispensing drugs to people who were coming up to me, and I could counsel them about, you know, changing their lifestyles, but at the same time, I don’t know that you can really do that. I think people either want to change, or they don’t want to change.

Liz Wolfe: Mm-hmm.

Michelle Tam: And you can’t force it. That is why I have my blog. If people want to get free information, they can come to my site, and see how, you know, I feed my family and feed myself. And that’s how I feel like I’m kind of spreading the good food word, and it’s out there, and if you want it, you can access it.

Liz Wolfe: Absolutely. Could not have said it better. We are a very holistically oriented podcast, and you know we talk a lot about food, because that is what we know. Diane and I know how to work with food. I don’t know shit about pharmacy;

Michelle Tam: {giggles}

Liz Wolfe: I don’t know anything about medicine, and so I have no right to speak to it. You know? And so sometimes we get a little bit confused about where one world ends and the other one begins, and they are certainly complimentary in many, many ways, but the reason we don’t constantly talk about one thing versus the other is because, you know, different realms of expertise. So, there is absolutely no reason, I think, to have any qualms about that type of thing. So, fabulous answer.

Michelle Tam: Thank you. {laughs}

Liz Wolfe: Fabulous!

Michelle Tam: And also, working just at my “real job,” like that helps pay for the bills, and that helps me stock my freezer full of what I want to eat, {laughing}

Liz Wolfe: Yeah!

Michelle Tam: So, yeah. That’s why we keep working too.

Liz Wolfe: 100%.

Michelle Tam: Yes.

4. Shift Work: Sleep, clean eating, stress and balance. [21:24]

Liz Wolfe: So, on that note, we have a couple of questions for you about shift work. Dun-dun-duuun! We had, here’s this question I’ll just read it. “Please touch on shift work with her. I know she’s done a post about it, but I’d love to hear any other feedback she has. My husband is a shift worker, as well, so I’ll take all the help I can get in keeping him as healthy as possible. We did buy the amber goggles she talks about, and they have definitely helped him.”

Michelle Tam: So, I do have a really long blog post, because I do get asked this question a lot, and I did it finally just to say “here, here’s the post” and I detail exactly what I do when I’m working my night shifts. Like, almost to the minute. Like, at this o'clock I wake up. At this o'clock I make dinner. At this o'clock… you know. So, if people need a very detailed schedule as to how I do it, you can look at my blog post.

Liz Wolfe: And we’ll link that in the podcast so everybody will be able to find it. We’ll link it in the podcast post.

Michelle Tam: But I think the key things are you have to prioritize sleep and eating clean, because those two things affect everything, you know. That is the only way I’m able to cook. That’s the only way I’m able to be a nice mommy while I’m working.

Liz Wolfe: {laughs}

Michelle Tam: Its just prioritizing sleep, and eating well, and that really does mean keeping all of your electronic devices out of the room, and keeping the room that you sleep in as dark as possible, and trying to keep it at a cool temperature, getting a great eye mask, getting ear plugs, making sure your kids don’t come into your room unless someone is bleeding profusely, and has to go to the emergency room.

Liz Wolfe: {laughs}

Michelle Tam: Even if it’s a small cut, like, whoever is babysitting them can handle it. But, otherwise it has to be a catastrophe before they come in and wake you up. And so those are the things. I’ve been working nights for, I think over 12 years, and it used to be a lot easier without kids, because I could kind of sleep when I wanted to and just kind of chill out. But now that I have kids, the strict schedule is super important, and everybody around me knows that when I’m working nights, it’s really important that I get good sleep, because it affects me at home, but it also affects the patients that I take care of at work. So it really is super important. I think when people hear that I work nights, sometimes they think that I take care of the kids during the day and then I go to work, and that is not true. Someone is watching the kids while I sleep.

Liz Wolfe: Mm-hmm.

Michelle Tam: Because, I need to sleep. {laughs}

Liz Wolfe: {laughs} its important. Have you seen the Ted talk recently, I think its about making stress work for you, or in some way; gosh I can’t remember what it is called but it is linked on my Facebook page. Did you see that?

Michelle Tam: No, but that sounds really interesting.

Liz Wolfe: I think that you would like it. I’ll have to send it your way. It’s about reframing the way we look at stress, and what it means to our bodies. And I think that part of this; my dad has been working shift work…

Michelle Tam: Yeah, I remember reading that.

Liz Wolfe: Yeah, 25 years!

Michelle Tam: Yeah.

Liz Wolfe: At least. And he loves it. And the thing is, you prioritize sleep, you eat clean, and here’s like, I think the key in the lock, is you feel good about that. You don’t sit there and say, “Ugh, I’m prioritizing sleep, I’m eating clean, but I’m still shift work and my life is going to be hard because of it.” I think a huge part of your success in all of these things is the mental game.

Michelle Tam: Yeah. And I totally agree. When people hear that I work night shift, they’ll go “That’s terrible!! When are you going to switch to days?”

Liz Wolfe: Mm-hmm.

Michelle Tam: And I tell them, no, this is a choice. I chose to change from, you know being a day-shift ICU pharmacist to being the night-shift pharmacist because I loved the schedule, and I loved having the week off because my life outside of work is so important to me. I mean, I love my work too, and I also love the work I do at night, because there is a lot of autonomy, because there are only 2 pharmacists to take care of the whole hospital, and I really like my work husband and the technician that works with us. I mean, I love the work that I do, but I also love the flexibility in my schedule and just being able to hang out with my kids, and my friends, and my family, so. I know that physically it’s probably not the best thing for me, because, you know, the sleep deprivation does build up as I’m working the whole week. But, it is worth it. And when I’m not working, like, you know, this week, I sleep as long as I can, and I’m just enjoying myself. And so I really do think that there is a balance.

Liz Wolfe: Mm-hmm.

Michelle Tam: It might not be optimal, but I think if I worked day shift, there are other stresses that would be a lot worse. So, it’s a balance.

Liz Wolfe: I 100% agree. I think for a lot of folks, we are as stressed as we plan to be.

Michelle Tam: Mm-hmm.

Liz Wolfe: You know, and I definitely fall into that. No matter whether I’m busy or not busy, I can make myself a little bit of a stress ball, and that is just the way I am. Also, let’s not make something a problem that is not yet a problem. So I guess what I’m saying is, folks that are like “Well, I’ve been working shift work for 20 years! Oh my gosh that was wrong? Oh my gosh that was going to kill me?” You know, if it’s something you’ve never even thought about before and you’ve been fine, don’t all of a sudden think, “Oh my God I’ve been killing myself for 20 years!”

Michelle Tam: Right.

Liz Wolfe: But if you’re, like you said, you’re tired by the end of the week, and you say, “Okay, well this is an issue, I’m tired and I need to arrange my life around trying to triage that and supporting myself as much as possible because I’ve noticed that, you know, something might be wearing on me a little bit.” So, a couple of different ways to think about it.

Michelle Tam: Yeah, I totally agree. And I think, you can even see, like, just working night shift at work, there are certain people who just look like they are sleeping on the job, and they are so tired, and they are miserable, and they are tired and overweight. I think for those people, maybe nights aren’t working for them, because they haven’t figured out all the different pieces to make it work. And, you know, for those people, maybe they should think about changing out of night shift or figuring things out.

Liz Wolfe: Definitely. Alright, very good. Let’s see, what do I want to move on to here. We did the shift work, prioritizing sleep and clean eating. Are you on a typewriter?

Michelle Tam: Oh, no.

Liz Wolfe: {laughing}

Michelle Tam: Is it making a ton of noise? I’m sorry.

Liz Wolfe: No, it’s just funny, it sounds like you are like on an old-timey, you know

Michelle Tam: No, no. It’s my little MacBook Air.

Liz Wolfe: {laughing}

Michelle Tam: And you know, I think you are supposed to be able to not press down, but I’m just not used to that, and so I do. I’m sorry.

Liz Wolfe: My husband and I actually are very different mouse pad users; I tap and he clicks.

Michelle Tam: Yeah. You know, and I know Henry, as soon as he hears, he’s like “Why aren’t you just scrolling on that pad?”

Liz Wolfe: {laughing}

Michelle Tam: And I’m like, I don’t know. {laughs}

5. Empowering kids to paleo eating. [29:03]

Liz Wolfe: That’s funny. Alright, so let’s see. We are going to get to some cooking questions here in a minute, but I think the most burning questions that people have is about getting the kids on board. So I’ll ask this question from Anna, and I have a little followup after that that is kind of related. But this is what Anna asks: “My husband and I turned paleo template in February. We had phenomenal results; I’ve lost 43 pounds, and we’ve healed our bodies. We have 7 children. My oldest girl loves eating this way. My teenage girls love how they look and feel, but they and the two little ones are constantly tempted at the pool, dance class, playgroup, nana’s house, whatever. What have you done to better empower your kids to eat this way?” I love, by the way, that she said empower, and not make your kids eat this way {laughs}.

Michelle Tam: Right.

Liz Wolfe: Love that. So what’s your answer to Anna?

Michelle Tam: Well, first of all, I don’t know how she can… I mean, props to her for having 7 kids.

Liz Wolfe: Oh yeah.

Michelle Tam: Because I feel like with 2 kids, I can barely kind of keep my stuff together. So, you know, I get asked this question all the time. And, I freely admit that it wasn’t super easy to get my kids to start eating paleo. For our older kid, who I call Big-O, he, you know, was pretty easy. He would just eat whatever we made. But our younger kid was very resistant initially. But, I think the key is that we just model the food behaviors that we want to see, and we just never gave up. We were just persistent. I would just cook what we were going to be making for dinner, and you know, this is what we are having, and we were just persistent. I think the key is that we just never gave up on it, because you should never give up on your kids, and we just don’t keep junk food in the house, and we control 80% of their meals. Because Henry and I are cooking their breakfast, and we are packing their lunches, and they are eating whatever we make for dinner. So, we really don’t stress out when they go to parties or they are going to their friends’ house, because that is only a small percentage of what they are eating. You know, I do think that we have noticed a huge change in them. And I thought it would never happen, but it has. Like, our younger son now eats what we eat, and he might eat really, really slow. {laughs}

Liz Wolfe: {laughs}

Michelle Tam: And he might be the very last person to leave the dinner table, but he eats it. And he’s not fighting it, he just eats very slow, and I think that is how he likes to kind of show that he is in charge. Like, “We’ll I’ll eat it, but at my own pace.”

Liz Wolfe: {laughs}

Michelle Tam: “It might take a half-hour, but this is me.” And so, you know, that is kind of what we do. Our younger son, also, I think has a similar reaction that I do to gluten. I used to get canker sores all the time. Like, my whole life.

Liz Wolfe: Mm-hmm.

Michelle Tam: And Henry never got canker sores, and I’m like “How come you don’t get canker sores?” He’s like “I don’t know.” They are super painful; they are the sores inside your mouth. Its not cold sores, so a lot of people can’t see them, but they are these little ulcers inside your mouth that hurt like a mother. And they will last for a week. And I used to go to my dentist, and I would be, like, “What causes this?” and they’re like “Nobody knooows”

Liz Wolfe: {laughs}

Michelle Tam: “You know, you probably just have some sort of trauma in your mouth”, I’m like, but they are appearing in places where I clearly can’t bite, you know? Like, it’s on my gum or somewhere strange. “Well maybe you just poked yourself because you’re trying to eat so fast.” I’m like, no that just doesn’t sound right.

Liz Wolfe: {laughs}

Michelle Tam: And so then when I went paleo and I cut out like grains and gluten, like they just magically went away. And when I started doing a little research, there is some thought that it might be an inflammatory condition, and there are some people who are gluten sensitive that have canker sores. And you know, my younger son started getting canker sores. And they are super painful, and I’m basically the only person in the family that understands, and when I help brush his teeth, I know how you’re supposed to move the gum away so the toothbrush doesn’t hurt it.

Liz Wolfe: {sympathetic} Mmmm.

Michelle Tam: But now he knows that if he avoids gluten, that he probably won’t get a canker sore. So, I mean, I think that just kind of knowing the consequences helps empower your kids. And they know what good choices are. And if they choose not to, that’s their choice.

Liz Wolfe: Mm-hmm.

Michelle Tam: And so that’s kind of … you know, kids are smart. And of course kids will want candy and junk food, you know you just can’t force them to not want it. But you just show them better choices.

6. School lunches [34:06]

Liz Wolfe: Perfect. So, along those lines, we had a couple of questions about school lunches, and you have a feature on your blog, right? Where you basically show what you have packed for them in the stainless steel… what are they called?

Michelle Tam: Yeah, so those… I have two weekly series of paleo lunches, but my kids lunches don’t necessarily look like that. We made these look really tempting and beautiful

Liz Wolfe: {laughs}

Michelle Tam: Because it should inspire people to want to make this type of food, but it doesn’t mean that is what your kid’s lunches have to look like. Because mine certainly don’t look like that every day. Like, my younger son likes a scrambled egg and some fruit, and maybe some nuts, and he is happy to eat that every single day. And, so, like, the really pretty lunch boxes that I have on the site are meant to be inspiration {laughs}

Liz Wolfe: They’re eye candy!

Michelle Tam: Yes! They are eye candy. And people can pick and chose what works in their own lunch boxes for their kids, but it is more just to inspire people. And its not to make people feel like a failure if their kids lunches don’t look exactly the same, but its more to like be able to show your kids, “Hey, is this something you would be interested in eating,” and hopefully they’d be like “Yeah!” and everyone would join in together and make little lunches together.

Liz Wolfe: It just doesn’t. I’m trying to make my pictures prettier, because I understand that it is nicer to look at, and nobody wants to, you know, read a blog that looks like you went out and, you know, scooper pooped the yard and put it on a plate, like, that’s gross, but, it doesn’t have to look pretty.

Michelle Tam: {laughs} Yeah. I mean, that’s the whole point of having a food blog, though, is to have inspirational photos, because then people will want to make those things. Because if it doesn’t look good, nobody is going to want to make it. And so, I do try to make things look really pretty on the blog. And everything that is on the screen is something that we have made and eaten, its not like, you know, we don’t spray on some sort of whatever to make it look better. You know, this is what we are eating. But it is shot in a way, or we do some sort of lighting to make it look better, only because, you know, stew is stew, and most of the time it doesn’t photograph fantastically. {laughs}

Liz Wolfe: {laughing} That is so true.

Michelle Tam: But I do think that if people don’t want to make it, they aren’t going to make it. And so, we try to make it look pretty so people will want to make it.

Liz Wolfe: Totally. Something to aspire to. And, it is art. I love that. I had the same conversation about makeup with Haley Mason, from the Food Lover’s Primal Palate, who, you know, in a past life before she became a kitchen genius, chef, and author, she was a Hollywood trained makeup artist. And, she always says, you know, just because I don’t do my makeup every day doesn’t mean it’s not really fun to, you know, have fun with the artistic side of things. It’s the same with food.

Michelle Tam: Yeah. I totally agree.

7. Kids and homework [37:31]

Liz Wolfe: Yeah. It can be fun. Okay, now a little bit of a corollary to these questions about the kiddos. How do you get your kids to do their homework? {laughs}

Michelle Tam: Uhhh, well you know, we’re Chinese, and so we are tiger parents, and we make them do all their homework as soon as they get home!! {/sarcasm} No.

Liz Wolfe: {laughing}

Michelle Tam: {laughs} We just, you know, when they come home from school, they, you know, get a snack and they do their homework. We aren’t crazy about their homework; because I think Henry and I were both raised where we were, you know, where we had to do our homework, and get straight A’s, and you know, study, study, study. And I think we’ve learned that the most important thing for your kids is to be happy, and to make people laugh so you can have friends, and to have some sort of drive. But that doesn’t mean you have to be the best student in your class necessarily, because that doesn’t ensure success. So, that’s kind of like, you know, we want them to know the basics, and do fine in school, but it is not our goal for them to be, like the valedictorian, and playing 5 different instruments and doing all this stuff, because we just want them to be happy. And we want, you know, them to be funny. {laughs}

Liz Wolfe: {laughing}

Michelle Tam: And we don’t want them to be bums, so we want them to love what they want to do. So those are kind of just our goals for them.

Liz Wolfe: It seems like funny runs in the family, as well as having the drive and the dedication. Your kids are awesome. I mean, like, no offense, but I’d almost rather hang out with them than you and Henry, and there’s like nobody else in the world I’d rather hang out with than you and Henry.

Michelle Tam: {laughs} Yeah, well, thank you.

Liz Wolfe: You’re doing good. Alright, well, lets move on to some practical questions about the food that you cook. And this is a bone broth question.

Michelle Tam: Okay.

8. Getting bone broth to gel [39:35]

Liz Wolfe: This is from, oh I’m going to say it wrong. I was going to say Birdie, but it looks like Bridie. “My bone broth isn’t getting gelatinous at all when I make it. What am I doing wrong?! Michelle, please help.”

Michelle Tam: So I think the secret to having your bone broth gel really is just picking the right bones. So you need bones that have a lot of cartilage, and that means you have to ask your butcher for the knuckles, and like chicken feet, just where the joints are is where all the collagen is, and the collagen, when it breaks down with the slow and low heat for a long amount of time will produce gelatin, and that is what makes your bone broth gel. But, I am a huge proponent of using pressure cooker, because you can get bone broth in about an hour that will be super meat JELL-O in the fridge; but the key really is just, you know, getting bones with lots of cartilage, and for me, that means all the joint bones, chicken feet, oxtail has tons of cartilage. Making sure you either cook it long enough conventionally or in a slow cooker, so that might be a good 10-12 hours at least in the slow cooker, or like 5 hours on the stove, or at least 1 hour under high pressure in your pressure cooker. But it is the joints that will get you the JELL-O.

Liz Wolfe: It will get it all gelatinous.

Michelle Tam: Yes.

Liz Wolfe: But you’re still getting some good stuff. I mean, don’t feel bad that your bone broth is inadequate. {laughs}

Michelle Tam: Right. And I do think it is important to have some meaty bones in there for flavor. I know people are like, all about just bones and knuckles, but I don’t think it tastes as good unless you have some meaty bones in there too, so I will throw in, maybe a couple, you know, shanks just so there is meat on there, or oxtails are great because there is meat and the collagen, and it just tastes better.

9. Sous-vide, pressure cooking, and slow cooking. [41:53]

Liz Wolfe: Now what is the difference between; I know you’ve talked about sous-vide cooking a little bit, and the difference between that and pressure cooker.

Michelle Tam:Sous-vide is you kind of wrap things up, you know, you vacuum seal whatever you are making, and you put it in a temperature controlled waterbath. And, the sous-vide is basically kind of just the ultimate temperature controlled slow cooking. So, let’s say you want a medium rare steak. You set your waterbath to like 130 for medium rare, and you dump in your steak for as long as it take to get your steak to that temperature, so sometimes it might take an hour or two hours or longer, depending on if you have a tough cut, but your food is perfectly cooked from end to end at 130 degrees, so it is pink, and so it is perfectly cooked. Pressure cooker is almost the opposite. Like, you are cooking food under high pressure, and so it just cooks faster. A pressure cooker I like to use more for tough cuts and stews, because you can make an awesome stew that normally takes you like 3 hours to tenderize in about 45 minutes. And so I kind of use, I use you know sous-vide, my slow cooker, and pressure cooker in different ways for different cuts. But there is a place, I think, for all of them. But I think nowadays I am doing more pressure cooking and slow cooking. I do sous-vide, but I don’t do it quite as often. And I know that on my blog, I always get all these people saying, “I don’t have a sous-vide”, and so I’ve just kind of moved on to cooking techniques that I think are more accessible to people.

Liz Wolfe: Mm-hmm. Definitely, I mean, I would love to have a sous-vide, but also the slow cooker and the pressure cooker, I think, are probably on my list a little bit above that.

Michelle Tam: Yeah.

Liz Wolfe: Just because it’s a little more, like you said, kind of more relatable, you see stuff like that more often. A little less specialized.

Michelle Tam: And it’s cheaper.

Liz Wolfe: Mm-hmm.

Michelle Tam: Yeah, and it’s cheaper, and that is why I think in my book I actually have no sous-vide recipes. But I do devote a page to why I love slow cooking and why I love pressure cooking, and those are where you should start looking if you are kind of looking for ways to make things easier in the kitchen.

10. Time spent cooking [44:28]

Liz Wolfe: Okay. So, let’s talk about that, because we had a few questions that were about, “Gosh how do you handle all the prep work with your food? How much time do you spend on prep work? How much time do you spend cooking?” I think people think that you spend, like, the better part of your day just cooking and preparing food. And I think part of that is definitely a learning curve. If people are just starting out with learning an entirely new way of eating, it is going to be a dragged out disaster every once in a while. But it gets better, and you get the hang of things, but for you, what is your prep time, and how long do you spend cooking, and in particular if you are using the slow cooker, I’m sure that makes it a lot easier.

Michelle Tam: Yes. A slow cooker definitely makes it easier. You just have to do your prep in the morning, and you just have to commit to doing it. You know, I think most slow cooker stews, it just takes maybe 20 minutes in the morning, and by the time you come back from work, or by the time I wake up in the evening, you have an awesome stew ready for you when you wake up. And so then all you have to do is make a few sides that don’t take too much time. So I think on average, I probably spend an hour or less cooking. And I know a lot of people are like, “Oh, I don’t have an hour!” but everybody; everybody does have an hour.

Liz Wolfe: Yeah, we can patch together an hour. You could stop checking Twitter while you are in the bathroom, and that will probably give you a couple of extra minutes in there.

Michelle Tam: Yes. Exactly. And, it’s not always, like, active time for the whole hour. You know, I do a lot of roasting of my vegetables, so that’s maybe 5 minutes of chopping and throwing on some, you know, some fat on it and some salt and pepper, and I pop it in the oven for maybe half an hour or 45 minutes, but when it is in the oven, I don’t do anything. Maybe I’ll like stir it halfway through, but then that is like a side dish that is already ready, and then I will probably chose another form of cooking. Like, I might pressure cook some mashed cauliflower, and that will take, maybe 5-10 minutes. Otherwise, I’m probably sitting on the couch watching America’s Got Talent with my kids, and there is a stew that is already cooked in my slow cooker. And so, it might take an hour for dinner to actually be ready, but I’m not working that whole time.

Liz Wolfe: Mm-hmm.

Michelle Tam: And you just kind of; I think cooking is just like any other skill. You just have to practice, practice, practice. It is so easy to outsource food that a lot of people just quit, or they think, oh this doesn’t taste so great. I’m just never going to do it again. But it’s like everything; you just have to keep practicing it, and eventually you will get better at it. But, if you stop and quit and give up, you won’t.

Liz Wolfe: That is so true. It definitely takes time and patience, and being patient with yourself. Because I am terrible! But I’m getting better.

Michelle Tam: I don’t think you’re terrible. I’ve seen your recipes.

Liz Wolfe: Well, see, I’m getting better!

Michelle Tam: {laughs}

Liz Wolfe: Its taken years, but, you know, it’s going better now.

Michelle Tam: And there are certain, I think, standbys that are super easy. Like, my slow cooker kalua pig literally you just put 3 strips of bacon on the bottom of your slow cooker, you season a big pork butt with some salt. You can put in some garlic cloves if you want to, but essentially that is it. And you just put it in the slow cooker for, you know, a bunch of hours, and then you have a big thing of meat that you can do whatever you want with.

Liz Wolfe: Can’t mess it up.

Michelle Tam: Yes. It’s really hard to mess up. But you do need the right pork cut, so I think that is one thing that people do need to learn, is that not every cut of meat works for every type of cooking. Like, for slow cooking and braising, you really do need something that has a lot of collagen that with the slow and low cooking will, you know, tenderize and become that fork-tender piece of meat that you are hoping for. Like, if you use like a lean steak and you throw it in the slow cooker and you cook it forever, it will be dry and powdery and disgusting.

Liz Wolfe: {laughing}

Michelle Tam: So you just need to know what works for what cooking method, and you will be fine.

Liz Wolfe: You won’t turn your steak into a protein shake.

Michelle Tam: Right! That’s one thing that kind of annoys me about some recipes, is when they are like, “Oh, just get, you know, a hunk of beef,” and it’s like, no, it really matters what type and what cut, because depending on what you are doing, you can’t do the same thing with any cut of beef.

11. Tips on cooking a brisket [49:13]

Liz Wolfe: Okay, well let’s ask this question then that we had in the queue about brisket. This is from Meg, “How in the world do you braise brisket without drying it out, rendering it tough and inedible. I want fork-tender, pull apart brisket. Help me, Michelle, with your culinary wisdom.” Yes, please help, because grass-fed, grass-finished brisket ain’t cheap, and I don’t want to mess it up.

Michelle Tam: Yes. So this is exactly what I’m talking about. With brisket, you have to cook it a certain way, or else it will be tough and inedible, and dry and powdery. So, I think the secret to brisket is to cook it to death, but the right way. And brisket is a really tough cut of meat, because it’s filled with connective tissue. So if you were to sear it like a steak or cook it at a high temperature for a short amount of time, it will be super chewy and disgusting. So, what you need to do is, the two best ways to cook brisket are to smoke it at a low temperature for many, many hours, or to do a moist braise in a covered dutch oven in your oven at a low temperature at like 300 degrees for like 3 hours. But basically, your meat has to reach and be maintained at like 160 to 180 degrees Fahrenheit, which is well done, but it has to be kept at that temperature for long enough for the collagen, which is really tough, to unwind and become gelatin, and become soft and tender and melts in your mouth. But the catch is, once its reaches this, you know, kind of well done state that is soft because the collagen has converted to gelatin, the natural moisture in the meat is actually gone. And so you do need to put on barbecue sauce, you know if you smoke it, and it does need to be braised in some sort of gravy just so it’s moist. Because naturally, it won’t have any moisture kind of left in it, but it will be tender. So that is why when you have barbecue brisket, you always put barbecue sauce on it. Because if you eat it by itself, its tender and it has nice mouth feel, because the gelatin, and there is fat in the brisket, but it is not going to be moist like a medium-rare steak. Because that still has the moisture intact. Whereas when you cook meat at well done, it’s kind of like you are wringing out a towel, and the moisture that is in the meat is gone, but then you have to supplement it with the sauce that you are braising it in, or with barbecue sauce. Does that make sense?

Liz Wolfe: It absolutely does.

Michelle Tam: Okay.

Liz Wolfe: We have a brisket we have been saving for a very long time, so I’m going to put this to the test.

Michelle Tam: Yes. And you should always keep the fat cap. So there’s… do you have, like, the whole brisket? Because sometimes the brisket is cut in two portions.

Liz Wolfe: It’s huge.

Michelle Tam: Oh, okay. Then you probably have the whole brisket. So I would do slow and low smoking, or you can braise it in, like, the oven at a low temperature for, you know, a little bit of liquid. In my Forky Friday, I actually talk about how much liquid you should put in a braise. And it’s not where you cover it all the way, because when you are braising it, you want the sauce to also be really flavorful. So you actually just need a little bit of liquid, but a covered pot.

Liz Wolfe: {Exhales} Okay.

Michelle Tam: {laughs}

Liz Wolfe: I’m going to have my husband listen to this, and he’ll do it.

Michelle Tam: Okay. Yes. You should do it.

Liz Wolfe: It doesn’t sound that difficult, but I think it actually is difficult. {laughs}

Michelle Tam: No. I think it will work out. And you can always cut up brisket and make stews with brisket too. I think that is also a really great thing.

Liz Wolfe: Oo-aahhh.

Michelle Tam: So my favorite stew meats; like, I think people should never buy what the store labels as stew meat, because its just a hodge podge of just a bunch of different cuts, and I’m sure everyone has experienced it where they bought the stew meat, and there might be a few pieces in there that are fork tender and delicious, and then other pieces that are dry and powdery and gross.

Liz Wolfe: {laughs}

Michelle Tam: And that is because they just throw in all the garbage scraps. But if you start with a piece of brisket, or short ribs, or chuck roast, and cut it up yourself, like all of those pieces will be fork tender and delicious.

12. Rapid fire: books, coffee, alcohol, and TV. [53:44]

Liz Wolfe: Wonderful. Well, we only have a few more minutes with you, so lets just do a couple of rapid-fire questions, and then we will let you go.

Michelle Tam: Okay.

Liz Wolfe: Question number 1: What is your absolute favorite thing to make right now?

Michelle Tam: Huh. I don’t know. You know, I think the true answer to that is if someone cooks for me. I would love whatever anyone else makes for me. But people, I think, these days are afraid to cook for me, but I will eat anything, as long as someone else is making it. Because, I am more of an eater than a cook, I think, in like, real life.

Liz Wolfe: In real life.

Michelle Tam: {laughs} Yes. I love to eat.

Liz Wolfe: I’m the same way. I love eating; not a huge, don’t like cooking so much.

Michelle Tam: I mean, I like cooking, and I love good food, and sometimes, you know, it’s hard to get good food unless, I mean, you have to cook it yourself. But if someone else cooks for me, I don’t even care if it’s good. I just want someone else to cook for me. {laughing}

Liz Wolfe: Its lovely, isn’t it, to have someone else just do that? It’s an expression of love.

Michelle Tam: Yeah. It is.

Liz Wolfe: Well, if you know the person that is cooking for you, I guess. {laughs} Otherwise, you are just paying somebody to cook for you. Alright. Next one. Do you drink coffee?

Michelle Tam: Yes. I do. But, I don’t drink it; I drink one cup every night before I start my night shift. And, when I get off my night shift, for the first two days, if I haven’t slept great, I will have one coffee in the morning. And it is a reasonably sized cup, and I normally put in some, you know, raw heavy cream, because we are part of a raw milk CSA. {gasp} That’s probably like, “Oh my God, dairy is not paleo!” but, in my book, it’s okay. {laughs}

Liz Wolfe: Look. We have anthropological evidence of dairying taking place something like 9000 years ago, and it was actually a pretty damn smart idea to get that kind of concentrated nutrition from animals. The smartest caveman did it; that’s what it is.

Michelle Tam: Yeah. So, but then, by the end of my non-work week, I don’t normally have coffee. And I definitely don’t have coffee past probably 10 or 11 in the morning, its just right when I get up.

Liz Wolfe: Alight. Okay, next question. What is your favorite book? It can be paleo or otherwise.

Michelle Tam: {laughing} I like reading TMZ and all this trashy stuff on the internet. So, book reading is, like, for smart people. {laughs}

Liz Wolfe: {laughing} Life is so full of serious things.

Michelle Tam: Yeah, reading is so hard, you know! No, I don’t know, I love cookbooks, but its hard to even pick a favorite cookbook, because there are different things that I love about every cookbook that I have, paleo or not. I don’t know, and I always mention cookbooks that I have, like on my website in terms of what I’m looking at recently, or you can look on Instagram to see the latest cookbook that I either bought or, you know, a publisher sent me.

Liz Wolfe: Yup. Get a couple of those.

Michelle Tam: Yeah.

Liz Wolfe: Alright, two more. Do you drink alcohol?

Michelle Tam: I don’t. But only because I get Asian flush.

Liz Wolfe: {laughing}

Michelle Tam: And, I have, like I think for Asians, they are either missing the enzyme that breaks down acetaldehyde, which is the intermediate product between alcohol and, you know, the breakdown products.

Liz Wolfe: Mm-hmm.

Michelle Tam: But acetaldehyde is the toxic compound that makes a lot of Asians turn red, and makes them sick, so I get that, and so alcohol is not, you know, it doesn’t make me feel better, and I feel that I’m, I’m not really that uninhibited where I need kind of, you know, some sort of liquid lubricant to make me more talkative.

Liz Wolfe: {laughing}

Michelle Tam: If anything, I think if I drink a little alcohol, and I turn red, then I’m like completely sober but I can say whatever I want, and people think that I’m drunk, and so sometimes that’s fun.

Liz Wolfe: {laughs}

Michelle Tam: But I really don’t drink, just because I don’t feel better when I drink. And it makes me feel sick. So that’s really the only reason. I mean, I do cook with it occasionally, and it’s not like a judgment thing. Like, most people around me drink, and that’s cool, if they feel fine drinking, and it’s not causing problems in their lives, they can do whatever they want, and that’s cool with me.

Liz Wolfe: You just don’t process it. Well, it’s okay, because I drank enough, I think, for both of us at the Paleo Royal Wedding.

Michelle Tam: Yeah, I think everybody was. And, you know, if you are having a good time; like, its real life.

Liz Wolfe: {laughs} its real life. That’s all it is.

Michelle Tam: Yes.

Liz Wolfe: Okay, one of the last questions, we already kind of covered this. Your favorite TV show; right now, or of all time, whatever.

Michelle Tam: Right now, we are watching a lot of America’s Got Talent, and we just finished MasterChef, so these are nice family friendly shows. I also like Orange is the New Black, I think is really funny.

Liz Wolfe: I have heard really good things about that.

Michelle Tam: And Downton Abbey I like.

Liz Wolfe: {gasps} Love it.

Michelle Tam: And I totally didn’t think that I would like it, but I love it.

Liz Wolfe: Yes.

Michelle Tam: I watch it on iTunes anytime I’m on, like a plane, because then I can watch like, hours and hours of it.

Liz Wolfe: Yes.

Michelle Tam: And it was just so sad all the people that died. I’m like, “oh no!”

Liz Wolfe: I know. Well, now they are all super popular in the United States, too, so they’ve got to jump over here and start doing, you know.

Michelle Tam: Yeah, and I love Bravo. Like, any Bravo show. I don’t even have to watch the series, like, I can just jump in and start watching it, and I just love them.

Liz Wolfe: Kindred spirits, we are. Alright, last question. Your favorite kitchen supply; what is the one thing that you could not live without?

Michelle Tam: Yes. I use it in everything. Like, I will scramble eggs, and I will put a dash of fish sauce. You can throw it into anything you make, and it will make it better. You just have to be judicious about how much you put in, but just a teeny bit will just boost the umami in anything that you make.

Liz Wolfe: We are pretty much out of time though, but I want to, one more time. Your book is up and ready for preorder on amazon.

Michelle Tam: Yes. But it’s not out until December 17.

Liz Wolfe: Okay. Doesn’t even matter; we can all get excited about it right now, and preorder it. Nom Nom Paleo, Food for Humans, over 100 nomtastic recipes. I love that, “food for humans”. That is fricking amazing. So, head over to amazon, preorder Nom Nom Paleo, Food for Humans. Checkout the website, http://nomnompaleo.com/. Check out the app. You’ve just got so many amazing things going on, and I’m so honored that you could stop by and talk to us today Michelle; thank you.

Michelle Tam: Well I had a great time, so thank you Liz.

Liz Wolfe: Okay. Say hi to the family.

Michelle Tam: Okay. And you say high to your family of animals, and to Spence.

Liz Wolfe: I will do that! Alright, well that’s it everybody. We’ll be back next week. You can find Michelle at http://nomnompaleo.com/. You can find me, Liz, at https://realfoodliz.com/. And our long-lost friend, Diane, who will be back eventually, is at http://balancedbites.com/. Thanks for listening; we will be back next week.

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