Suide is not as taboo there as it is here. I think if someone wanted to die they could take a poison or something that is a lot less painful than being eaten alive by thread. I do not believe that anyone would choose that way to die.

Good point. I was speaking from recollection of American native traditions and hard winters.

You weren't alive in the sixties, were you? Actually, I wouldn't even go back as far as that - you can easily find that type of behaviour right here and now, if it floats your boat.

I was. I've been to college, too. Frats, dorms, apartments, rented houses, the occasional couple coupling on the quad rather startled as your entire squad hurdles them on a pre-dawn run... Also been around the world in the fleet. Am conversant with interesting uses for baskets and a game called "smile" and exactly why the troops love liberty in Pattaya and Baguio. Like whips? Try Baltimore. Any other assumptions you'd like to make?

If you'll read again, I did not say such activities could not be found. I said there is no place that they are legally and socially approved of on a large scale. Available, ignored, profited from, etc..., yes. Approved of? No.

Even San Francisco and Key West have their limits. I haven't seen a place yet that really approves of much of anything in front of the kiddies. Thankfully.

Well my personal view of the Weyr would be that EVERYONE is bisexual, because that would make the most sense. Men wouldn't be afraid of being pegged as gay, and gay men wouldn't have to feel like they are justifying their gayness by screaming "EW OMG BOOBIES *VOMIT*" every time the thought of having sex with a woman would come up. If a man with main preference to men wanted to have kids he might find a surrogate mother and impregnate her, and a lesbian woman would find someone to sire her child if she wanted to have a kid, and nobody would die from having sex with someone they didn't have a preference for.

I think one of the most romantic ideas would be someone who was supposedly a certain 'preference' fall in love with someone out of their preference, and be able to embrace the feeling and not feel like they are betraying who they are. Now, for those who truly just have a preference out there and are 100% gay or straight.. that's cool. I just can't comprehend it.

My main point was that the sensible bisexual Weyr is not what is normally portrayed and insinuated, and that there -are- preferences, though this is moreso shown with women more than men. Even bronzeriders are 'allowed' male sexual relations in the book. There isn't so much as a frisky bisexual greenrider amongst the entire lot. Everyone is craving the MAN.

But yes, we can all understand that this is because McCaffrey grew up in a different world, and it was terribly 'generous' of her to include homosexuality at all.

A note on blueriders favoring men, yes it -does- make sense that they would Impress to men who liked men because of the greens, but how would ickle baby dragons know that? Human influence and the hive mind was my sort explanation for that. Man thinks 'blueriders should like men because greenriders are men!' so the men who like men will be receptive to blues because they are open to Impress blues.

In my opinion...I don't belive that there would be a hold/craft wide predjudice towards/against same sex indiviuals, but more an individual feeling/problem. Probably brought on more because of their individual personal inner fears of homosexual feeling and their inability to deal with those feeling...rather than of anything culturally taught in the crafts or holds.

In Dragondawn, its mentioned that even the memebers of the colony that prefered same sex partners were expected to contribute to the growth of the colony's membership. I can easily see that kind of thought continuing especially with the plague years. I would think that there is a great many of the people that enjoy same sex relationships, also having heterosexual relationship at least once in there lives.

@Electric Dragon...what has being homosexual/gay have to do with being able to contribute to the *Resource Aspect*of the hold. Only a very few homosexuals would find it impossible/repugnant to contribute to the populations growth of the hold/weyr. Especially if they are brought up knowing that it is needed/expected for the survival of the population of Pern. I would think that it would greatly depend on how strongly a child is taught what their duty to the hold, in respect to what they are expected to do when they reach adulthood.

Possibly that is where Mirrim came from, her Father doing his occasional duty for the weyr in adding to the population's diversity and growth by having heterosexual relations with a woman...her birth Mother.

I just don't believe that this whole subject would be a problem on Pern...just something that would have been dealt with before the colonist left on the ships to come to Pern.
I believe we are all reacting to this subject with what we have learned in our present time period , with all the personal feelings, emotional concerns and prejudices. In Pern's time I agree they would have dealt with all of these problems...and gotten well passed them...to a place where there is normal equality for everyone(it isn't even thought about)...and you are judged by all your contributions to society.

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The stories of childhood leave an indelible impression,and their author always has a niche in the temple of memory from which the image is never cut out to be thrown on the rubbish heap of things that are outgrown and outlived........Howard Pyle

I have to agree with Kath - you can find that sort of behaviour going on if you look for it.

Never said you couldn't; I spoke to its acceptance in current society to counter an absurd contention that overstates the current state of affairs.

ElectricDragon - take a look at the history of sex and sexuality on this planet. Until religion started sinking it's teeth into it, most people didn't have an issue with it.

Remove the religious constraints and issues from sex and sexuality and you get some surprising results.

In benign circumstances? Sure. In a survival situation? Hey, in that scenario, people have been know to eat people. I think most people don't appreciate how small Pern's population would really be, and just how close to the ragged edge of survival, especially when you look at some of the logistic numbers to support the Weyrs.

FYI - it is a conservitive estimate at best that 10% of the population are gay/lesbian. Why? Becasue of the people asked by Kinsey only 10% were willing to state they were gay/lesbian (this of course was at a time when being such was taboo). That survey and report has been called into question over the last few decades by lots of leading psycologists as being inaccurate, and geared to a particular political view point. In the UK, the government believes that 5-7% of the population are gay/lesbian. Most psycologists put the figure at closer to 20% - becasue again, not everyone asked is honest about what they are.

There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics. And the government doesn't have a lock on their use and abuse. Anything to do with sexuality is vulnerable to accusations of error through questionable self-report. The government may have reasons to deflate the numbers (or not). So too, the homosexual community would have reasons to inflate them. The psychological community could also be subject to a sampling error. After all, if homosexuals experience more psychological upset (understandable, being a downtrodden or even abused minority most places) they would be more likely to visits psychiatrists and be subjects of psychologists' studies, leading to over-reporting.

Various scientists, including Kinsey, are expected to construct their studies to account for these issues. Sadly, these days, scientists are as corrupt as journalists and pollsters. If GLAD pays for the study, 30% of the population is homosexual. If the Moral Majority pay for it, 3% of the population is homosexual; well, this week at least, next they may commission one to find that 15% of the population is homosexual to prove what a threat they're becoming to the MM's "precious bodily fluids" or whatever it is they're up in arms about.

If the homosexual community can claim to be larger than it is, it can magnify its issues in the public mind and secure more government money. If other entities can claim the homosexual community is smaller than it is, they can minimize its issues in the public mind and secure more government money for whatever it is they want.

I generally use 10% not because Kinsey got the number, but because it lies between the extremes that are frequently quoted. I am distrustful of either end of the scale in any politicized issue. And frankly, I just wish everyone would live an let live, because if there was no homosexual cause, and no anti-homosexual cause, none of my hard-earned tax dollars would go to either and I'd be happier.

In truth human sexuality is far more fluid, and the labels we use to define it are what screws it up. Very few human being are 100% straight/gay/lesbian - they are bisexual to a degree. I know more bisexual people then I do straight/gay/otherwise. Most of them don't define there sexuality with a lable, they just have a wider choice of people they can fall for/be with/have sex with.

This is a very appealing way of looking at the issue if you're homosexual. After all, if "everybody's at least partially gay" then the homosexual community is bigger, has more clout, gets more government money, etc...

You could be a victim of sampling error yourself. A heterosexual person may well know more heterosexual people. A homosexual person may well know more homosexuals, or bisexuals. After all, they would have reason to know each other, would they not? And it isn't like the human race is not notorious for self-selecting in to like groupings. I know an astonishing number of people fly airplanes for example, more than most people I meet. Ergo, more people must fly airplanes than non-pilots realize, correct? No. That would be a fallacy. I know more people who fly, because I'm a flyer, not because there are more pilots in the population than commonly reported.

Also, assuming that everyone is bisexual to a degree is probably as outlandish of an assumption as many that are made about homosexuals. It's like assuming every homosexual likes show tunes or RuPaul. I can tell you that men do absolutely nothing for me. I can consider the issue intellectually, but there is absolutely no impulse to action. So much for the everybody's a little bisexual theory, because I'm far from the only heterosexual person I've known to report similar views. However tolerant or intolerant they may be of homosexuals, all are equally baffled by the very notion of finding the same sex interesting in a physical sense. We don't get it. No doubt there are homosexuals with the countervailing view about heterosexual physical attraction. I've known them. And bisexuals who can't understand why everyone doesn't see things their way, and even a few people who simply find sex of any variety uninteresting and even repugnant. And yes, there are some people who are heterosexual who can get interested in a member of the same sex. Of course, then we open up the whole can of worms about whether or not they're really heterosexual and it just spirals from there.

So yes, human sexuality has more variety than simply heterosexual and homosexual. But the idea that it's all a blur...I think that serves the purpose of some more than others.

Given that Pern is set in our future - and baring any sort of extreme religion taking over the world and forcing it's view on how we should all live on us, I can forsee (without hessitiation) a time when human sexuality is not so rigidly defined by terms of "gay," "stright," "bi," etc etc, and people just fall for people - regardless of what sex they are.

I have no problem with this idea as an idealistic notion, but I do have a problem with it applied to real populations. The issue of whether we can rid ourselves of the plague of religion is an entirely different debate I don't want to get into. But beyond that, most people have enough trouble handling one variety of sex and one variety of relationships. Throw down a smorgasbord and it doesn't mean that everyone will try everything on the buffet. They may just ignore the curry and the funky jello salad and get the roast beef and macaroni. You may find yourself with a lot more leftover jello salad than you expected.

If the bulk of the Pern coloney are made up of people like that, then I have no problem with forseeing that they would be able to find enough sutable men as partners for Green and Blue dragons.

If. We are talking about a colony expedition intending to grow a population. The most likely people to recruit would be breeders.

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't Mirrim's father a green rider? If so then it would seem that some green riders do have relationships with members of the oposite sex...

This has kind of been my point. It is not necessary to flood the Weyrs with homosexuals to cater to the greens. Others are finding more and more ways and rationales to constantly up the homosexual population of the Weyrs and Pern. It strikes me as wish fulfillment. I prefer a more balanced view. I've had too much experience with extremists on both ends of the political spectrum.

Whilst I do agree that the Weyrs seem to have a more open mind on the issue of sexuality then the Holds - the Holds would be hard pressed to justify removing so many people from the population as you suggest - at the end of the day they would be cutting there own noses off to spite there faces. I would imagin that most Lord Holders are educated on these facts, and probubly see to it that any males that show "homosexual tendancies" are sent to the weyrs. In fact there is overwealming evidence in the books to support that - off the top of my head, I can think of a scene from MasterHarper of Pern that deals with just that.

And there is plenty of evidence of the Pernese population lapsing into older, less tolerant modes and relying upon tradition vice reason. In fact, the very colony group was itself rejecting no small amount of rational reliance upon technology to live an arguably riskier "traditional" and more bucolic existence. Compared to the average sod-buster, the Lord Holders may be more educated. At least by 9th Pass Pern, I really don't know that I'd hold up the Lord Holders as universally so progressively educated.

And no offense Electric Dragon, but gay and lesbian people have spent nearly 2000 years on this planet dealing with persicution, narrow mindedness, and prudish people - and yet, they have survived, and prospered - and (gasp) in a few countries are beginning to get equal rights and treatment. Given that gay/lesbians were able to hide from such treatment on Earth - do you not think that they would be able to survive such treatment on Pern? And knowing that they would be accepted in the Weyrs, make there way there?
Are you suggesting that Pern - which is set in our future, is less advanced socially? I'm sorry but I find no evidence within the books to support that idea. Individual characters may have there own issues with it - but human life seems to valued by most on Pern.

I never said homosexuals would not survive. I said the environment might not be as open-minded as some would like to believe. I also feel that most people underestimate the survival stress on the Pernese population and the degree of retrogression. The Holds and Crafts just don't show that progressive of a view. The Weyrs by necessity, yes, but the others. Not so much.

I don't think that Pern is that dark and dangerious a place for us homos.

Nor do I think it is homosexual heaven. I'm for a middle-ground view.

Yes, Anne has some very old fashioned ideas about gay men - I have no issue with that. She's 80+ years old. She's allowed. At least she included gay men/characters in her stories - which less face it, for it's "ground breaking ideas" Star Trek never did (and no I don't count the girl on girl kiss in DS9 - becasue it never happend again with that character...). I've often wondered what happend to all the lesbians - I guess none joined the coloney, or have ever been born on Pern. More as likely they have never been written about.

Nine times out of ten a person's sexuality isn't pertinent to the plot and it's appropriate not to bring it up, heterosexual, homosexual or otherwise. That it has been raised so much has more to do with some clamoring for it. Others of us could really care less.

Looking at the facts - what is the total number of dragonriders in Pern's population? Now how big is the total population, and is 10% (keeping this conservitive for arguments sake) of that number greater or less then the total number of dragonriders? Work that out, and then you will have an answer as to whether the weyrs would be hard pressed to find enough men to ride green/blue dragons. Remember, if we stick to the conservitive esitmate, for every one million people you have on Pern, one hundred thousand would be gay.

Pern's maximum realistic population would be about 1.3 million by 9th Pass (and that's a generous estimate assuming some pretty constant breeding). Of those, depending on what source you accept you'd have about 3,000 dragon-riders. Using 10% for the homosexual population, you'd have about 130,000 homosexuals. But that's not the pertinent statistic. Dragon-riders account for only two tenths of a percent of the population. Two tenths of a percent of the homosexual population of Pern would be 260 people (and remember, half of those are lesbians). That's 130 homosexual men to Impress 1500 green dragons. Let's triple the homosexual population to 30%. That gives us 390 homosexual men to Impress 1500 green dragons. Let's assume that the Weyrs double the representation of homosexual men compared to the general population. That gives us 780 homosexual men to Impress 1500 green dragons. Let's neck the dragon population down to 300 per Weyr, for 900 green dragons and we still have only 780 homosexual men to Impress them. That leaves us a bit short-changed to then populate the ranks of blues and browns with homosexuals as well, which some would have us do.

Now, is the Impressible population likely larger than just 2 tenths of a percent? Yes, but it's still probably measurable in fractions of a percent. And the heterosexual population is much larger than the homosexual population, so the odds are that a Search is going to find a lot more heterosexual candidates than homosexual just by shear availability. After all you'd have to search the population pretty throughly to find an Impressible person in the first place; you'd have to make an even greater effort to find a homosexual Impressible person. And during Intervals, there may simply be no need to Search if needs can be met from the Lower Cavern weyr-brats. Of course, they're the products of dragon-riders who are at least bisexual, since purely homosexual riders will not reproduce.

So, is it reasonable that we might have a fair chunk of the green dragons Impressed by homosexual men? Sure. Especially if the Weyrs are over-represented in the homosexual category. Going beyond that except as pure fantasy, utopianism or wish fulfillment for some? I don't think so.

Pern isn't perfect, but it is what it is - fiction. Try and enjoy it as such.

Oh, I do. There are people who reject the idea of Pern being science fiction. I don't. I actually find it works surprisingly well as science fiction, and that the scoffers are turning a blind eye to errors of science that are the equal (or exceed) those of Pern. But if you're going to accept Pern as science fiction that means it will get looked at for verisimilitude (and should be).

So I have no problem with the Pernese being more open-minded in general than the present day, but only to a degree. This is, after all, a population of breeders out to people a world. The selection is likely to be skewed toward the heterosexual for this reason. And in a survival situation, the worst tends to come out in people and they don't make decisions based on what is fair.

I have no problem with there being homosexual and bisexual dragon-riders. It frankly makes sense given the circumstances. But the idea that every Impressible homosexual makes it to the Weyrs is stretching things more than a bit. That a significant fraction that is likely to Impress a substantial portion of the greens does would is reasonable. That all the green, brown and blue riders are homosexual or bisexual...statistically improbable at best.

Nor do I have a problem with the idea that there may be unintended homosexual encounters courtesy of amorous dragons. And I have no problem with the idea that Pernese Weyr society shrugs it off. "Hey, it was the dragon!" Yet the idea that persons who are heterosexual would not prefer to make other arrangements prior is a little silly, especially given a willing population in the Lower Caverns and a whole lot of Weyr-brats. To assume otherwise implies a dreadful lack of planning ability and a dangerous ignorance of the condition of one's dragon on the part of the rider. Aviators who are that sloppy about their planning and the condition of their aircraft tend to wonder (for an instant, no longer) what that mountain goat is doing way up in the clouds. I'd imagine dragon-riders that are similarly sloppy are the ones who get excavated out of solid rock a few hundred years later.

Location: A cozy house in the dales of Debyshire, in little old England

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Re: (Potential Adult Topic) Dragons Sexual Selection

One of the biggest problems with statistics, is that they can be used to proove anything. They are, in fact, usless - according to most experts.

Your figures on Pern's population are a little off - and that's ok. By the Ninth Pass there are 10 Weyrs/Weyr Holds and the dragon population is prob closer to 6,000.

Also, populations are not static - people do move about, so you may find that the weyrs have a larger gay population - becasue, as we know from the books, the weyrs do conduct searches within holds and craft halls And Holders/Crafters have been known to send people to the Weyrs as well. That - and simple need. (also, if we go by your ideas on the subject, a lot of gay men would be making there way to the Weyrs to have a better life).

Look at it this way, Ilkeston (the town I live in) has smaller ratio of gay men living in it, then say Brighton (the so called gay capital of the UK). Why? Becasue people move, populations are not static. Even on Pern people move about.

The other flaw in your figures is that you forgot that other people are living in the Weyrs: the support personal. You need to take them into account as well.

Now, I decided to do some home work on Kinsey, and his research before replying. 1 in 10 men may be exclusivly gay, but according to Kinsey 4 in 10 men are bisexual to one degree or another.

That changes things greatly.

So, Weyr population - on avarage about 2,500 including dragonriders. If half of them are men, then we have 1,250 men per Weyr. if half of them are bisexual or gay, then each Weyr has 625 sutible men of various ages for green, blue, brown dragons. Of course the total dragon population of each Weyr is about 500 dragons. Based on that, I don't see a problem. Do you?

The maths works. The facts work. Yeah Anne, she did it right after all.

Kinsey's report on human sexuality is the most often quoted, but I can think of others, and direct people to more modern research on the subject if need be. His report is also considered to be controversal, wrong, outdated, and generally out of touch with the world we live in today, by most people in the field.

One of my bestest friends in the world is an expert on this issue (although even she would say not the leading one, just one of the experts). She is currently working with the UK Government on new guide lines for sex education in schools - and even goes into schools to talk to children about the subject herself. When it comes to human psycology I don't argue with her, frankly her list of qualifications is frightening. She is too good at figuring out what makes people tick...

The idea that sexuality is fluid, came from her - and her research. It's not a "homo" idea to make the world more appealing (she's actually stright herself, if it matters, and personally my sexuality isn't fluid - I am, and always have been, gay). It's based on research, and psycological profiles. She's been working on this stuff since I've known her, which must be about 12 years now. In fact I met her becasue I was one of the people she interviewed - and one of the freaky rair people who's sexuality is 100% one thing. I guess I'm not a fluid person in that area. My points were based on definable science.

Your reasoning and arguments ElectricDragon are flawed, and the reason they are flawed is as follows; You are projecting your own view of the world on to how you see things on Pern working. You are projecting your attitude and feelings into the matter. You are not being objective.

You have not actually given us a quote or reference within the books that shows a situation where Holders/Crafters are down right hostile or discriminatory towards homosexuals, or discriminate against people becasue they are ill or old.

And you wont find any such passages either, becasue there aren't any.

Individual characters within the series have been shown to have a variety of takes on the subject - but down right hositility? The same sort of closed minded bigotry that goes on here on planet Earth? Not been seen on Pern. Anne didn't want that on her world, and so it isn't there.

Lady M beat me to the post on picking up an a ref from Dragonsdawn about the original colonists. Which basically came down to, eveyone was expected to contribute to the next generation - regardless of there sexual orientation. So clearly, and obviously not all the colonists were straight and hetrosexual. In fact Telgar makes reference to that. Obvioulsy being gay wasn't an issue to signing up for being a Pern colonist. In fact I doubt that sexuality would have been an issue at all in being able to join the colony. Take a look at the short story "The Second Weyr;" no one blinks an eyelid at the fact there is an openly gay blue-rider.

Dragonsdawn - and Anne by interview, made one thing very clear: There is no religion on Pern - and they have none of the problems or issues caused by having religion either. So a lot of issues that people have/had with homosexuality were never going to be (and never have been an issue) on Pern. Again, that is born out by clear evidence within the books.

I am happy to continue disccusing this matter with you ED - but clearly it would help if you could find an instance in the books that backs up what you are saying. Otherwise, this is just your personal opinion on the subject.

Last edited by Jayru; Jan 15 2008 at 05:42 AM.
Reason: Added some info... that and I like to mess with peoples minds...

Location: A cozy house in the dales of Debyshire, in little old England

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Re: (Potential Adult Topic) Dragons Sexual Selection

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nako

Ohmigawd, what did you guys do to my topic? lol!

LOL, unfortunatly where sexuality is concerned people have strong views on. Sadly it's still an issue.

I kind of agree with your take on things regardling the weyrs, that most men are probubly bisexual. But then, a lot of they way we deal with sex comes down to education - and I suspect the weyrs see to it that candidtes get a good education in that area. Who knows, the Holds/Crafts may deal with the subject pretty well too.

Clearly (and looking at the books), there are some very hetro males, and some very homo males. There are also some very bi males as well. So sexual preference is still there, but not it seems an issue.

As to why Blue and Green dragons prefer men with more of a gay preference... I dunno if I agree with the Hive Mind idea. It has merit, but it doesn't sit right (IMOO). Dragons find something sympathetic in the candidates that they can link to, and join with.

I think the truth is, that this is Anne's world, and what she says goes, As to how it works, and why...

Possibly that is where Mirrim came from, her Father doing his occasional duty for the weyr in adding to the population's diversity and growth by having heterosexual relations with a woman...her birth Mother.

I always thought that Mirrim's mother was one of many partners of whatever gender.

@ ElectricDragon: You accuse others here of not being objective, when you are skewing facts in favor of your argument yourself! And picking the mid-range statistic to use, that just doesn't make any sense! Just because it's not too far one way or the other doesn't mean it's possibly any more correct. And just because a person is gay, it does not mean they cannot contribute to the population of the Pern--I find that to be very weak argument.

Now, I could be totally wrong about this, but isn't there a line in "The Second Weyr" where someone remarks that they need to find more gay candidates (when talking about their gay comrade)? So clearly, from the beginning, they weren't blind to the issue and made some effort to see something was done about it.

@ ElectricDragon: You accuse others here of not being objective, when you are skewing facts in favor of your argument yourself! And picking the mid-range statistic to use, that just doesn't make any sense! Just because it's not too far one way or the other doesn't mean it's possibly any more correct. And just because a person is gay, it does not mean they cannot contribute to the population of the Pern--I find that to be very weak argument.

Now, I could be totally wrong about this, but isn't there a line in "The Second Weyr" where someone remarks that they need to find more gay candidates (when talking about their gay comrade)? So clearly, from the beginning, they weren't blind to the issue and made some effort to see something was done about it.

And by the way, I'm not gay, and I know a lot of gay people.

Here's the quote you were looking for:

TSW on.:

Quote:

Sean asked Carenath his opinion of some of the candidates. It would be good for Dagmath’s rider to have some of his own persuasion.
Torene considered that. The blue rider preferred boys to girls. And Sean would prefer to have fewer of the speedy little green dragons out of action because their riders were taking maternity leave.
Are there any prospects in that line? Torene asked.
Three.
Torene grinned. Now that was certain to please the Weyrleader.
“Who’s the grin for?” F’mar asked. He was sitting beside her and now leaned heavily against her shoulder.
“For me to know and you to guess,” she replied in a singsong voice.
“You’re not giving anything away, are you?” He sounded irked. “You did go to the craters today, didn’t you?”
“Sure, but that conversation had been gnawed to the bone by the time I got here,” she replied. “It would really make such a splendid Weyr. . .” She gave a wistful sigh.
“I think,” F’mar whispered in her ear, his breath tickling, “that Sean’s about to do something about establishing a new one.”
“You do?” She pulled back to look at him with an eager surprise which was genuine enough.
F’mar bent close again. “Sean wasn’t hunting all the time he was gone.”

I also don't think it matters a whole lot whether riders are gay, straight, or purple monkey dishwashers.

Anne's rule is "The dragon decides, the rider complies". Therefore...

IF a man is a dragonriderIF his dragon is either the chaser or the chaseeTHEN he could be the most heterosexual male ever birthed by woman, and he will have teh hawt dragonsecks with whoever or whatever rides the dragon that his dragon catches/is caught by.

Because he loves his dragon.

This bond is non-negotiable. He is the dragon during a mating flight. The relationship is more than symbiotic - his consciousness has been assimilated by his dragon's consciousness for the most part.

The Weyr could have nothing but heterosexuals in it. The planet Pern may have never heard of the word 'homosexual'. It doesn't matter.

Well my personal view of the Weyr would be that EVERYONE is bisexual, because that would make the most sense. Men wouldn't be afraid of being pegged as gay, and gay men wouldn't have to feel like they are justifying their gayness by screaming "EW OMG BOOBIES *VOMIT*" every time the thought of having sex with a woman would come up. If a man with main preference to men wanted to have kids he might find a surrogate mother and impregnate her, and a lesbian woman would find someone to sire her child if she wanted to have a kid, and nobody would die from having sex with someone they didn't have a preference for.

I think one of the most romantic ideas would be someone who was supposedly a certain 'preference' fall in love with someone out of their preference, and be able to embrace the feeling and not feel like they are betraying who they are. Now, for those who truly just have a preference out there and are 100% gay or straight.. that's cool. I just can't comprehend it.

My main point was that the sensible bisexual Weyr is not what is normally portrayed and insinuated, and that there -are- preferences, though this is moreso shown with women more than men. Even bronzeriders are 'allowed' male sexual relations in the book. There isn't so much as a frisky bisexual greenrider amongst the entire lot. Everyone is craving the MAN.

But yes, we can all understand that this is because McCaffrey grew up in a different world, and it was terribly 'generous' of her to include homosexuality at all.

A note on blueriders favoring men, yes it -does- make sense that they would Impress to men who liked men because of the greens, but how would ickle baby dragons know that? Human influence and the hive mind was my sort explanation for that. Man thinks 'blueriders should like men because greenriders are men!' so the men who like men will be receptive to blues because they are open to Impress blues.

A fine and wonderful theory if you proceed from the assumption that everyone would be perfectly happy to be bisexual...if only they could get over their "hang-ups."

But what if one's sexual preference has nothing to do with "hang-ups" and is simply a matter of what biologically interests them? Uh, oh! Suddenly the fully bisexual Weyr isn't so fun or romantic anymore.

So I don't have any problem with the Weyrs being a more representative mix of the various sexual preferences. I just consider extremes such as complete bisexuality to be as much wish fulfillment as if I imagined the Weyrs were populated entirely by women who look like Jennifer Connelly, Kate Beckinsale and Simone Simons and that they'd all be into me.

Now I might be inclined to agree with you...if I didn't know too many people who simply haven't got the slightest homosexual or bisexual inclination in their make-up. Women who look at women and it just does absolutely nothing for them. Ditto for men looking at men. I think the idea that heterosexuals don't exist and we're all some degree of bisexual is as off-base as the idea that homosexuals don't exist and are all some sort of moral deviants. I don't think you'd get a lot of water from the well to the trough with either of those buckets, but you could make a lot of mud in between.

One of the biggest problems with statistics, is that they can be used to proove anything. They are, in fact, usless - according to most experts.

I do believe I brought up the phenomenon of lies, damned lies and statistics, elsewhere, so this is not a revelation.

Your figures on Pern's population are a little off - and that's ok. By the Ninth Pass there are 10 Weyrs/Weyr Holds and the dragon population is prob closer to 6,000.

My population might be off. I just found a little problem with Excel. Thanks. Of course now I have to fix it... What a nuisance.

Also, populations are not static - people do move about, so you may find that the weyrs have a larger gay population - becasue, as we know from the books, the weyrs do conduct searches within holds and craft halls And Holders/Crafters have been known to send people to the Weyrs as well. That - and simple need. (also, if we go by your ideas on the subject, a lot of gay men would be making there way to the Weyrs to have a better life).

A reasonable argument, except that mobility is limited on Pern and so are resources. The Weyrs can't just freely accept everyone who wants to show up on their doorstep. They live off a tithe, and carrying a lot of supercargo personnel who just show up doesn't work. The Holders aren't going to want to fork over ever increasing resources just to support a lot of people that are ultimately not part of the Weyr organization.

Look at it this way, Ilkeston (the town I live in) has smaller ratio of gay men living in it, then say Brighton (the so called gay capital of the UK). Why? Becasue people move, populations are not static. Even on Pern people move about.

True to a degree. However, I'm sure there are plenty of people in Ilkeston who can't afford to move to Brighton, just as there are people in Topeka who can't afford to move to Orlando.

The other flaw in your figures is that you forgot that other people are living in the Weyrs: the support personal. You need to take them into account as well.

I didn't forget them. We're only concerned with who the dragons Impress, the actual riders. Let's not blur this.

Now, I decided to do some home work on Kinsey, and his research before replying. 1 in 10 men may be exclusivly gay, but according to Kinsey 4 in 10 men are bisexual to one degree or another.

The key is the phrase "to one degree or another." So is someone homosexual merely by virtue of having had some variety of intimate contact with a member of the same sex (we're getting dangerously close to the infamous tent peg with that idea) or an active continuing preference for the same sex (or both in the case of bisexuals). This is part of the reason these studies are so controversial and debated. Are you latently homosexual if you've thought the idea was intriguing and that you might engage it in if all the circumstances aligned, or do you actually have to get into bed with a member of the same sex and get busy? Does an experimental event early in life "count" or is it discounted if the party decides it doesn't really work for them.

There's a whole kettle of fish here that I frankly don't think will ever be sorted out. Too many people have vested interests in scuttling the results on either side. This falls right in there with some racial research that will never be done openly. If anyone made a serious scientific attempt to determine if there truly were differences in intelligence, physical strength, longevity, etc... between the races they'd be pilloried by all sides (and probably compared to Nazi doctors of infamous memory).

That changes things greatly.

So, Weyr population - on avarage about 2,500 including dragonriders. If half of them are men, then we have 1,250 men per Weyr. if half of them are bisexual or gay, then each Weyr has 625 sutible men of various ages for green, blue, brown dragons. Of course the total dragon population of each Weyr is about 500 dragons. Based on that, I don't see a problem. Do you?

Statistically possible, but unlikely in the real world. Nature abhors vacuums and tends to take the path of least resistance. Unless you're going to claim that the ability to Impress is tied to whatever gene determines homosexuality, there will simply be far more heterosexual people with the ability to Impress and nature is unlikely to be that picky. Following your logic, the fleet should have been massively overpopulated with homosexuals. After all, it was an all-male environment, yet the distribution was not that far off the regular population. Why? Because naval service isn't for everyone. By the same token, not every homosexual is going to want to leave their Hold or Hall to go live in a Weyr, nor are all of them going to want to be dragon-riders or do weyr-work. So the likely distribution would be a cross-section and the skew might be noticeable but not overwhelming.

The maths works. The facts work. Yeah Anne, she did it right after all.

And where did the author ever claim the entire dragon-rider population was bisexual?

Kinsey's report on human sexuality is the most often quoted, but I can think of others, and direct people to more modern research on the subject if need be. His report is also considered to be controversal, wrong, outdated, and generally out of touch with the world we live in today, by most people in the field.

As near as I can tell every report is attacked for similar reasons. I don't think I'll throw Kinsey or any of the others out with the bath water.

One of my bestest friends in the world is an expert on this issue (although even she would say not the leading one, just one of the experts). She is currently working with the UK Government on new guide lines for sex education in schools - and even goes into schools to talk to children about the subject herself. When it comes to human psycology I don't argue with her, frankly her list of qualifications is frightening. She is too good at figuring out what makes people tick...

The idea that sexuality is fluid, came from her - and her research. It's not a "homo" idea to make the world more appealing (she's actually stright herself, if it matters, and personally my sexuality isn't fluid - I am, and always have been, gay). It's based on research, and psycological profiles. She's been working on this stuff since I've known her, which must be about 12 years now. In fact I met her becasue I was one of the people she interviewed - and one of the freaky rair people who's sexuality is 100% one thing. I guess I'm not a fluid person in that area. My points were based on definable science.

It would seem that she, you and I all defy her thesis.

Your reasoning and arguments ElectricDragon are flawed, and the reason they are flawed is as follows; You are projecting your own view of the world on to how you see things on Pern working. You are projecting your attitude and feelings into the matter. You are not being objective.

And conjecturing a population completely made up of homosexual/bisexual dragon-riders is not projecting or lacking in objectivity?

I only recall the author making allowances for a significant number of green riders being homosexual, some number of others, and no stigma to homosexual encounters in the Weyr due to the influence of dragon mating flights. Show me the passage that says everyone's batting both sides of the plate.

You have not actually given us a quote or reference within the books that shows a situation where Holders/Crafters are down right hostile or discriminatory towards homosexuals, or discriminate against people becasue they are ill or old.

Because I never said such a thing existed in the books. I was challenging the contention that Pern would be completely homosexual friendly as unlikely. And I offered some reasons that could create such a hostile situation under Pern's circumstances. That's not the world the author set up, but as we all know not everything in Pern is completely realistic. Certainly a wonderful amount of it works, but not all. C'mon: time travel? We do engage in a certain suspension of disbelief, but when examining how realistic some more tangible things in the model are, the human track record in that regard hasn't been great. So when compared to a realistic standard would Pern be likely to be idyllic? Not so much. Better than what exists? Certainly plausible--and that's all the author has provided.

And you wont find any such passages either, becasue there aren't any.

I never said there were.

Individual characters within the series have been shown to have a variety of takes on the subject - but down right hositility? The same sort of closed minded bigotry that goes on here on planet Earth? Not been seen on Pern. Anne didn't want that on her world, and so it isn't there.

The fact that there are a variety of takes displayed does not speak to a universal view within the Pern population. It speaks to differing views and some will certainly be on the extremes. And that is realistic.

More power to the author for not incorporating outright bigotry in this regard, but there are other varieties that surface in the stories. Isn't Menolly subjected to bigotry of a sort over the craft she would prefer to pursue? Isn't Lessa a bit of snob over her blood-line and hold? Don't some of the Oldtimes look down on Holders?

More power to the author for painting a better world, but part of the reason it works is that it's not perfect, and the people are still people. So is it a better lot for homosexuals and bisexuals than 2008 Earth? Sure. Paradise? I don't think you'll find that written in there anywhere.

Lady M beat me to the post on picking up an a ref from Dragonsdawn about the original colonists. Which basically came down to, eveyone was expected to contribute to the next generation - regardless of there sexual orientation. So clearly, and obviously not all the colonists were straight and hetrosexual. In fact Telgar makes reference to that. Obvioulsy being gay wasn't an issue to signing up for being a Pern colonist. In fact I doubt that sexuality would have been an issue at all in being able to join the colony. Take a look at the short story "The Second Weyr;" no one blinks an eyelid at the fact there is an openly gay blue-rider.

Yeah about that passage...that's a bit disturbing. "Look Bob, I know the idea of sleeping with a woman totally revolts you, but you signed the contract, so get in there and take one for the Colony!" "I'm sorry, Mary, I know you're totally not into this man-woman thing, but it says right here you're going to contribute to the Colony's growth, so take it off! Chuck's waiting! And heck, it'll all be over in nine months...this time. You will, of course, be expected to squeeze out a few more to hit our growth target." C'mon! How many ways does the very idea violate a person's rights? Effectively, the only way it couldn't is if no strict homosexuals (only bisexuals) were permitted to join the Colony. Maybe we all ought to forget that one exists...rather like F'nor's idea of seduction, eh?

Dragonsdawn - and Anne by interview, made one thing very clear: There is no religion on Pern - and they have none of the problems or issues caused by having religion either. So a lot of issues that people have/had with homosexuality were never going to be (and never have been an issue) on Pern. Again, that is born out by clear evidence within the books.

Well, the ability to eradicate religion's a completely different issue, so let's table that. However, religion is far from the only source of prejudice. It's just a convenient excuse. If it's not religion, it's political ideology. If not that, then skin color. If not that, then sexuality. If not that, then regional identity. I wouldn't count on removing religion to magically cure the plight of homosexuals. The human race has more issues than just religion.

I am happy to continue disccusing this matter with you ED - but clearly it would help if you could find an instance in the books that backs up what you are saying. Otherwise, this is just your personal opinion on the subject.

That cuts both ways. I never claimed a number of the things you say I did. I challenged the assumptions of others by pointing out some of the flaws in their reasoning. You returned the favor by pointing out a math error. Fair is fair.

Since I never actually claimed a number of the things that you want cited actually exist in the books, I have no need to cite them. They were points of argument and illustration only. But on the other side of the coin, where does it say that the dragon-rider (or even Pern's) population is either exclusively or even predominantly homosexual or bisexual? Or does it merely say that there is a prevalence among green riders and some representation amongst others, and the Weyr-bred don't have an issue with it either way? Where does it say that all Pern is accepting of homosexuals and bisexuals, or do we have repeated references to Holders and Crafters having "hang-ups" with the issue? What is the logical implication of that statement?

I think the author provided Pern with some very open-minded and generous boundaries, but my point has been that some push those boundaries to the point of wish fulfillment and that sinks the rather nice verisimilitude the author provides.

In my opinion...I don't belive that there would be a hold/craft wide predjudice towards/against same sex indiviuals, but more an individual feeling/problem. Probably brought on more because of their individual personal inner fears of homosexual feeling and their inability to deal with those feeling...rather than of anything culturally taught in the crafts or holds.

People fallen on hard times will turn on anyone different, regardless of any personal inner fears. How many people in Weimar Germany do you think honestly believed the Jews would steal their souls, their money and their women, and how many were just turning on people who were different when they elected the Nazis?

In Dragondawn, its mentioned that even the memebers of the colony that prefered same sex partners were expected to contribute to the growth of the colony's membership. I can easily see that kind of thought continuing especially with the plague years. I would think that there is a great many of the people that enjoy same sex relationships, also having heterosexual relationship at least once in there lives.

As I've pointed out in another response, that's a disturbing passage. There is simply know way it can do anything but violate the rights of strict homosexuals. Bisexuals would be okay with it, but strict homosexuals...?

Would we require heterosexuals to engage in homosexual affairs against their will? Why would we consider it right to force homosexuals to engage in heterosexual affairs? So either the Pern Colony recruited only heterosexuals and bisexuals, or it didn't much respect individuals' rights, particularly strict homosexuals.

@Electric Dragon...what has being homosexual/gay have to do with being able to contribute to the *Resource Aspect*of the hold. Only a very few homosexuals would find it impossible/repugnant to contribute to the populations growth of the hold/weyr. Especially if they are brought up knowing that it is needed/expected for the survival of the population of Pern. I would think that it would greatly depend on how strongly a child is taught what their duty to the hold, in respect to what they are expected to do when they reach adulthood.

In survival situations, people will do just about anything. On short rations, who are you going to share your meager food supply with? Your children, or someone who isn't likely to provide you with grandchildren. It depends on how bad things get. That's where resources become an issue.

Even if the survival impetus isn't so severe, we then get into inherited property and title. You can only divide them so may ways, if at all, and preference will be shown to the heirs likely to to produce progeny to continue the bloodline, not those who represent an effective dead-end.

If the colony's original intent behind growing the population survives (as it would seem to) and is inculcated into tradition, then the social pressure will be to produce children and this will favor heterosexuals.

Bisexuals would have an advantage over strict homosexuals in any of the above situations, but even they could be under pressure in a society that emphasizes reproduction. "You're dallying with a person of the same sex instead of reproducing? You're not doing your part."

Possibly that is where Mirrim came from, her Father doing his occasional duty for the weyr in adding to the population's diversity and growth by having heterosexual relations with a woman...her birth Mother.

And it's just as likely that he's heterosexual and every time his dragon rises, he takes Mirrim's mother to bed.

I just don't believe that this whole subject would be a problem on Pern...just something that would have been dealt with before the colonist left on the ships to come to Pern.

For the original colonists and their society it may have been a big non-issue. For the successor society that developed over the succeeding 2500 years and the pressures it endured...not so much. References in the books clearly point to there being differing degrees of acceptance among Hold, Hall and Weyr, so obviously some people aren't as open-minded. That would be realistic.

I believe we are all reacting to this subject with what we have learned in our present time period , with all the personal feelings, emotional concerns and prejudices. In Pern's time I agree they would have dealt with all of these problems...and gotten well passed them...to a place where there is normal equality for everyone(it isn't even thought about)...and you are judged by all your contributions to society.

We can certainly hope so. However, our track record over 8000 years of recorded history isn't so good. Here's to hoping.

I also don't think it matters a whole lot whether riders are gay, straight, or purple monkey dishwashers.

Anne's rule is "The dragon decides, the rider complies". Therefore...

IF a man is a dragonriderIF his dragon is either the chaser or the chaseeTHEN he could be the most heterosexual male ever birthed by woman, and he will have teh hawt dragonsecks with whoever or whatever rides the dragon that his dragon catches/is caught by.

Because he loves his dragon.

This bond is non-negotiable. He is the dragon during a mating flight. The relationship is more than symbiotic - his consciousness has been assimilated by his dragon's consciousness for the most part.

The Weyr could have nothing but heterosexuals in it. The planet Pern may have never heard of the word 'homosexual'. It doesn't matter.

The dragon decides. The rider complies. Finito.

Concur. Thus, it is not necessary or even probable that the entire population of dragon-riders is bisexual/homosexual. That has been one of my points. Any of them could wind up having a homosexual encounter as a result of a dragon flight and no one would place any stigma on it, but it wouldn't require the rider to be homosexual or ever voluntarily seek such contact outside the context of a dragon flight. The most likely result is a fairly broad cross-section of sexualities. A little skewed perhaps, but not completely homosexual/bisexual.

@ ElectricDragon: You accuse others here of not being objective, when you are skewing facts in favor of your argument yourself! And picking the mid-range statistic to use, that just doesn't make any sense! Just because it's not too far one way or the other doesn't mean it's possibly any more correct. And just because a person is gay, it does not mean they cannot contribute to the population of the Pern--I find that to be very weak argument.

Now, I could be totally wrong about this, but isn't there a line in "The Second Weyr" where someone remarks that they need to find more gay candidates (when talking about their gay comrade)? So clearly, from the beginning, they weren't blind to the issue and made some effort to see something was done about it.

And by the way, I'm not gay, and I know a lot of gay people.

Years of experience have shown me that extremes are to be distrusted on any politicized issue. I haven't been proven wrong yet. Of course, how many politicized issues have definitive information even available that comes close to constituting proof? Not bloody many, this one included. The jury is still out (probably to lunch) on this issue. We have a lot farther to go in the study of human genetics, intelligence and sexuality before we have anything reliable on this issue.

I happen to know a probabilities professor who could spend a number of hours disproving your take on probability theory. As for how far something is form the norm, well close to the norm you have what is probable. Farther away you have what is possible. Probable, by its very nature is more likely than possible. It's possible a three-legged horse could win a race, but forgive me if I put my money on the one with four.

Who ever said a homosexual person had nothing to contribute to Pern? Not I. I've constantly allowed for a homosexual element to the population in general and dragon-riders in particular. I take exception to the exclusion of heterosexuals. After all, if it's not fair to exclude homosexuals, why would it be fair to exclude heterosexuals?

I know homosexual people too. Kind of hard not to when you've visited as many countries and cultures as I have. What's your point?

Also what in the quote--from the very early years of the colony--says that such urbane awareness is passed down through 2500 years in a society that has demonstrably and repeatedly lost much knowledge and increasingly codified matters as "tradition" and forgotten or even inverted their rationales (as with the grubs)?

Location: A cozy house in the dales of Debyshire, in little old England

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Re: (Potential Adult Topic) Dragons Sexual Selection

Whilst, believe it or not ED, I actually get the point you are trying to make - you are still missing some big points;

1/ Pern is fiction - over analysis of it, and its society is pointless, becasue it aint gonna change anything.
2/ Sexuality - especially in human beings, is something that is still being studied and understood. You find hard to believe that society on Pern (as written) could work as it does, but I think you are projecting the world as it is today onto Pern - which after all is set in our future. Can you not accept that society has changed, and is still changing in this area?
3/ Without the moral constraints of religion, how and why would Pern have any social issues over sexuality? Looking at real human history, until Christianity came along, sexuality was not a major issue anywhere in the world. Look at the Cherokee - until religion came along, single sex couples were treated the same as any other couple - sexuality wasn't even an issue. So low tech societies can exist without any sort of predjudice where sexuality is concerned.
4/ Sexuality isn't as ridged. Yes you and I are the freaks - becasue we state we're 100% what we are. I never said my friend was the same, only that she defines herself as straight. I'll qualify that further and say she defines herself as staight at this moment in time.
5/ Being disgusted about homosexuality/bisexuality isn't built into to human beings. Predjudice comes from the people who raise us.
6/ Go read all 18 Pern novels, the one novella, and the 11 short stories. How many hetrosexual male green/blue riders are actually mentioned? We don't know that Mirrims father is hetrosexual. We don't know he's bisexual. The text infers that he's had a few children by several different weman. But that's all it does.
7/We've gone from caring about what dear old Kinsey had to say on the subject, to not being willing to believe those figures can be right.
8/ You say the figures don't fit, and that I am skewing thing to favour my POV. Am I? I had hoped that you would get the point I was making. Which was - that based on conservitive research, there are enough suitable men on Pern to fill the needs the Weyrs/dragons have. I never said they were all in the weyrs. And I agree, they wouldn't all want to leave there holds/craft halls. But then we do have clear evidence of that in the books, because we have gay/bi characters who are not dragonriders.
9/ When we say that the Holds and Craft Halls are less open minded then Weyrs - regarding sex. What is meant by that? That only hetrosexuality is tolerated and accepted? Could it be - that it's not sexuality that is the defining part in this, but sexual freedom that is the issue. Dragonriders, espcially green dragonriders have to accept that there dragons are going to rise to mate, and they are going to end up have sex with someone. Who? Well, that's a good question. The same person each time? Another good question. Could it be that the Holds and Crafts prefer couples to be manogamus? And that it is the so called hedonistic aspect of weyrlife (as they see it) that they struggle with?
10/ What is "Tradition?" When we say the Holds and Crafts are more traditional, what do we mean by that? Tradition as in todays traditions regarding sex and families? 1960/70's Traditions (when the early books were written) - or future traditions that the Pern colonists will take with them (100 years from now, 1,000 years fom now?). Traditions change, and without qualification within the text of the book we actually don't know what is meant by it.
11/ Being gay doesn't mean you don't want kids, and that you can't have them. Here, now, on Earth there are many ways of doing that, from adoption, to turkey basters, to the good old fashioned way. On Pern I would suspect the old fashioned way prevales in the creation of children. Unless they are still making turkey basters in the Ninth Pass...

No you are not being objective. And, therefore this is not a discussion. A discussion is a free exchange of ideas. Which infers that people take on and think about those ideas.

You (ED) have made some very good points, and people like myself have sat back and thought about them and replied. Your basic original point is worthy of discussion - but you have an agenda with it, and it allows for no flexability.

Interollerance doesn't spring into existance from no where. It has a source. The same as predjudice does. Where sexuality is concerned the biggest (and main) source of that is religion. Ironically, and as prooven hostorically, society tends to be more stable when religion isn't involved.

I don't look at Pern and think "cool, a homosexual heaven." I look at it and think, "cool, sexuality isnt an issue." In fact I have never thought of Pern as a homosexual heaven, (although now I come to think about it, all those men in leather... )

Yes I am openly gay - as many people on here are, and you may feel that I am taking the "pro-gay" stance. Unfortunatly you don't know me well enough to assume that, or actually even know that. You cannot ignor all the research ever done on the subject, simply becasue it doesn't fit your world view. That sort of George W Bush approach is, to be blunt, not helpful.

As I said above, you obviously have your own agenda and some major point you wish to make on this issue, and one that is inflexable and you cannot be moved from, or amend. Without room for discussion, and exploration of the point - well, what's the point? This means that further discusion is pointless, and (to use an anlogy) I may as well try and tickle a boulder with a feather.

Nako's original post and comments were fun to think about - and as I said above, so was your (ED's) original point. It's not often I do the geeky thing of working out a planets population, or reading up on Kinsey (not as much fun as it sounds). But at least I can say I learned some new things from it. So not a complete waist of time. If my little bit of research had supported your original point, then I would have said so, and backed you to the hilt on it. As Gidget has said, it would just be another thing about Pern that's an elephant in the room. I'm not trying to prove you wrong becasue I am pushing some gay-agenda, but becasue the facts do not support your idea.

Oh yes, the reason we (as in my partner and I) live in Ilkeston, and not Brighton, has nothing to do with money, and everything to do with just how beautiful Derbyshire is. But that's neither here nore there.

As Gidget has said, it would just be another thing about Pern that's an elephant in the room. I'm not trying to prove you wrong becasue I am pushing some gay-agenda, but becasue the facts do not support your idea.