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Topic: Norma's epoxy dough (Read 44663 times)

Norma, I have attempted to adapt to your Lehmann dough recipe (16 in. crust) using Reinharts epoxy method in the dough formula below. The method below has a two-stage build, mixing the soaker and preferment on Friday and mixing the final dough on Monday for Tuesday’s bake. Reinhart’s traditional method involves a firm starter (biga) and soaker. I decided to move away from the firm starters for two reasons, 1) Firm starters in general are more acidic and sour in flavor than high hydration ferments, especially if they are held over multiple days. Therefore, I upped the hydration to 100% for the preferment. 2) Also, I in my personal opinion, it will be easier to get achieve a homologous dispersion of the preferment and soaker throughout the final dough during mixing. The amount of soaker in this formula I effectively tripled (50% of the total dough weight) to see if we could extract more flavor from the soaker itself. To that end, I have also noted that the initial water temp should be between 120-130F before refrigeration. At these temps, the enzymes in the dough will become more active, hopefully contributing more flavor to the overall dough without cooking the starches in the grain.

I am hoping this formula will maximize the flavors in the dough without turning too bread-like, but you never know .

For the final dough, mix together the water, preferment and soaker until evenly dissolved and homologous. Then added in the flour, salt and mix away.

Let me know if you have any thoughts or concerns, or would like to take this in a different direction with other dough styles. If you would like to add in any oil, sugar, whey , etc to the formula, let me know as well, and I can calculate out the percentages for you.

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Norma, I have attempted to adapt to your Lehmann dough recipe (16 in. crust) using Reinharts epoxy method in the dough formula below. The method below has a two-stage build, mixing the soaker and preferment on Friday and mixing the final dough on Monday for Tuesday’s bake. Reinhart’s traditional method involves a firm starter (biga) and soaker. I decided to move away from the firm starters for two reasons, 1) Firm starters in general are more acidic and sour in flavor than high hydration ferments, especially if they are held over multiple days. Therefore, I upped the hydration to 100% for the preferment. 2) Also, I in my personal opinion, it will be easier to get achieve a homologous dispersion of the preferment and soaker throughout the final dough during mixing. The amount of soaker in this formula I effectively tripled (50% of the total dough weight) to see if we could extract more flavor from the soaker itself. To that end, I have also noted that the initial water temp should be between 120-130F before refrigeration. At these temps, the enzymes in the dough will become more active, hopefully contributing more flavor to the overall dough without cooking the starches in the grain.

I am hoping this formula will maximize the flavors in the dough without turning too bread-like, but you never know .

For the final dough, mix together the water, preferment and soaker until evenly dissolved and homologous. Then added in the flour, salt and mix away.

Let me know if you have any thoughts or concerns, or would like to take this in a different direction with other dough styles. If you would like to add in any oil, sugar, whey , etc to the formula, let me know as well, and I can calculate out the percentages for you.

Jim,

Thanks so much for taking me on a new journey with the Lehmann dough, trying the “epoxy” method. I appreciate your experiences with dough and understanding how to do the calculations in helping me. Maybe we all will learn something from your formulation if it really does make a better dough and final pizza.

I can understand the reasons why you decided to change Reinhart’s methods from a biga to a poolish preferment format. It will be interesting to see if the amount of soaker (50% of the total dough weight) will extract more flavor from the soaker itself, then when we used the soaker in the Sicilian dough formulation at 25% at Reply 201 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18281.msg185998.html#msg185998

I wanted to ask you a question about the preferment part of the epoxy method. When I make the preferment at home or at market, I let the preferment amount bubble some before refrigerating for three days. In my recent experiment with refrigerating a preferment for the Lehmann dough (for 1 dough ball) at home the preferment part had started to bubble as shown in Reply 225 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18407.msg184704.html#msg184704, but then when it was refrigerated it stopped almost in fermenting as shown in Reply 235 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18407.msg185079.html#msg185079 and I had to let it out at room temperature to ferment some more before incorporating the preferment into the final dough. What I don’t understand is doesn’t a preferment need to be somewhat active before it is refrigerated or incorporated into a final dough? At market when I make a preferment for the Lehmann dough I also let it bubble a little before refrigerating it for a 3 day cold ferment. I guess because of the mass of the larger preferment it does keep fermenting at the right rate for it to ferment enough after 3 days.

The only other thing I would like to add is oil to the final dough, to compare how your “epoxy” method compares to a regular preferment Lehmann dough. Would it be too much trouble to figure out adding oil in the formulation? Since I sure am not good with figuring out such a complicated “epoxy” formulation, would I just add the oil to the final dough?

Do you also have any preference of what kind of flour I use in your “epoxy” method?

I guess we will find out if your formulation will maximize the flavors in the dough, without the pizza coming out too bread-like.

What I don’t understand is doesn’t a preferment need to be somewhat active before it is refrigerated or incorporated into a final dough? At market when I make a preferment for the Lehmann dough I also let it bubble a little before refrigerating it for a 3 day cold ferment. I guess because of the mass of the larger preferment it does keep fermenting at the right rate for it to ferment enough after 3 days.

Norma, I am not sure it makes too much difference with IDY preferments, they are by nature pretty active strains. If you want leave it out until you see some activity, that is fine with me too. My principle concern is that the IDY will over–ferment the preferment during the three day storage period, which is why I dialed back the initial amount as well. But if you have good success with your method, by all means, go with what you know works best. I am still learning too.

Regarding what flour to use, I will leave that up to you. I know you have been pretty successful with the GM Full Strength but if you would like to change it up, be my guest. Or if you would like to mix flours, that is fine too.

For the oil, I am not sure if you have a preference for the amount but 1.0% would be approximately 3 g, 1.5% would be 4.5 g, 2% would be 6 g and 2.5% would be 7.5 g.

Im glad you are on board too. This should be interesting to say the least to see how things will turn out.

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Norma, I am not sure it makes too much difference with IDY preferments, they are by nature pretty active strains. If you want leave it out until you see some activity, that is fine with me too. My principle concern is that the IDY will over–ferment the preferment during the three day storage period, which is why I dialed back the initial amount as well. But if you have good success with your method, by all means, go with what you know works best. I am still learning too.

Regarding what flour to use, I will leave that up to you. I know you have been pretty successful with the GM Full Strength but if you would like to change it up, be my guest. Or if you would like to mix flours, that is fine too.

For the oil, I am not sure if you have a preference for the amount but 1.0% would be approximately 3 g, 1.5% would be 4.5 g, 2% would be 6 g and 2.5% would be 7.5 g.

Im glad you are on board too. This should be interesting to say the least to see how things will turn out.

Jim,

I probably have good luck with the preferment part of the Lehmann dough because Peter formulated it for over a 3 day period. The preferment part of the Lehmann dough contains 75.66 grams of flour and water and a lower amount of IDY at 0.30%. With the lower amount of flour and water in your formulation and the higher amount of IDY I will do it your way to see what happens. I have no idea how that much IDY and smaller amount of flour will ferment over a 3 day period, but if it doesn’t ferment enough I can easily let it sit at room temperature to ferment more before I mix the final dough.

I did use GM Full Strength flour in the one experiment with the 1 dough ball batch of the preferment Lehmann dough and didn’t like those results, but with your higher hydration it might turn out okay. I will think about what amount of oil I might want to try. Thanks for figuring out how much to add in different percents.

I am usually onboard to try out a new experiment. Since your “epoxy method” is really different I am really interested in how the pizza will turn out.

I mixed the preferment and the soaker right after I posted this morning. I think it was a good idea to use Jim’s approach of just putting the preferment right into the fridge after mixing because now there are a few tiny bubbles on the bottom of the preferment, which I guess are fermentation bubbles. I also mixed the soaker with water that was about 128 degrees F and left it sit at room temperature for a half an hour before refrigerating. This picture was taken right after the mixes of the preferment and soaker. I did use GM Full Strength flour.

Following the dough recipe above, I created 1 preferment, 1 starter and two final doughs this morning. Protocol for the preferment and the soaker/mash were followed as outlined above. I also created 2 final doughs. One of the doughs was made without the soaker and preferment, so effectively a straight dough, following same hydration levels, salt and IDY amounts. The other dough followed the same proportions but instead, I hydrated the dough first with 127F water, allowed it to come to room temp before adding in the yeast, followed by the salt. In effect, not only do I want to see how the epoxy dough compares, but also I am interested in the affects of initial water temp and enzyme activation on final dough taste, texture and performance, assuming that the yeast are added in into the final dough at a temp of 73F.

Interestingly, I observed right from the star, it took no time for the dough to fully hydrate (under two minutes) and that I barely need to mix the dough for to come together. I am curious if this will impact the final outcome, but only time will tell.

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Following the dough recipe above, I created 1 preferment, 1 starter and two final doughs this morning. Protocol for the preferment and the soaker/mash were followed as outlined above. I also created 2 final doughs. One of the doughs was made without the soaker and preferment, so effectively a straight dough, following same hydration levels, salt and IDY amounts. The other dough followed the same proportions but instead, I hydrated the dough first with 127F water, allowed it to come to room temp before adding in the yeast, followed by the salt. In effect, not only do I want to see how the epoxy dough compares, but also I am interested in the affects of initial water temp and enzyme activation on final dough taste, texture and performance, assuming that the yeast are added in into the final dough at a temp of 73F.

Interestingly, I observed right from the star, it took no time for the dough to fully hydrate (under two minutes) and that I barely need to mix the dough for to come together. I am curious if this will impact the final outcome, but only time will tell.

Your results should be very interesting in your experiment with hydrating the dough first with 127 degrees F and then letting it come to room temperature before adding the yeast and then salt. I don’t remember reading of anywhere on the forum that anyone else did that experiment. Interesting that it took no time for the dough to fully hydrated and you barely needed to mix the dough for it to come together. I am also curious how that method will effect the final outcome. How long are you going to cold ferment your final doughs?

Just to let you know how my soaker and preferment are doing, the preferment isn’t bubbling anymore and the soaker smells good. I tasted a little of the soaker and it does have that sweet and nutty taste again. I will try to take pictures tomorrow of what both of them look like.

Norma,Sorry, I sometimes do not make myself clear enough after working on academic papers all morning. It is like shifting gears and forgetting to hit the clutch. It doesn't always turn out well.

I made the preferment and soaker for the epoxy dough formula following what we prescribed above. In addition, I made 2 other dough formulas, without the using the epoxy method, but following the same water, salt and yeast proportions so I can compare dough formulas on the day I bake. One of the doughs were made without the soaker and preferment, so effectively a straight dough. To the other dough, I hydrated the flour first with water at 127F, and allowed this mixture to come to room temp before adding in the yeast, followed by the salt. So a 100% soaker/mash dough. I was planning on baking Tues. I wish I wish I had more time to extend the experiment, but Wed the temp is suppose to be in the mid to upper 90s and really don't want to heat up the house too much.

« Last Edit: May 12, 2012, 05:45:42 PM by JimmyG »

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Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought.

Norma,Sorry, I sometimes do not make myself clear enough after working on academic papers all morning. It is like shifting gears and forgetting to hit the clutch. It doesn't always turn out well.

I made the preferment and soaker for the epoxy dough formula following what we prescribed above. In addition, I made 2 other dough formulas, without the using the epoxy method, but following the same water, salt and yeast proportions so I can compare dough formulas on the day I bake. One of the doughs were made without the soaker and preferment, so effectively a straight dough. To the other dough, I hydrated the flour first with water at 127F, and allowed this mixture to come to room temp before adding in the yeast, followed by the salt. So a 100% soaker/mash dough. I was planning on baking Tues. I wish I wish I had more time to extend the experiment, but Wed the temp is suppose to be in the mid to upper 90s and really don't want to heat up the house too much.

Jim,

You didn’t have to say you were sorry. I understand now you made 3 doughs, one being with the preferment and soaker for the epoxy method we both are trying. The one other dough is a straight dough, and one was with using the water at 127 degrees F to hydrated the flour. Since I don’t understand soaker/mash doughs, I can now understand that the one with the water at 127 degrees F to hydrate the flour and then letting it come down to 73 degrees F is like a soaker/mash dough. I will learn though this thread.

Maybe with your results we will understand better what a soaker/mash dough can accomplish, because your are doing 3 experiments to be able to draw conclusions.

Sorry to hear it is supposed to get so warm in your area Wednesday. I can understand you wouldn’t want to have your oven on in that high heat.

This is what the soaker and preferment looks like after about 2 days in the fridge. The soaker does taste different than just flour and water. The preferment doesn’t look like it has much fermentation.

I checked the preferment and soaker this morning. Like you said above Norma, the soaker had a distinct sweetness to it. Also, the soaker had retained its strength from the gluten with no obvious signs of breaking down. The top of the preferment did not seem to show too much activity, however when I lifted the plastic film from the top of the starter, it appears that fermentation occurred over the past two days. I'll most like mix up my final epoxy dough over the noon hour.

I checked the preferment and soaker this morning. Like you said above Norma, the soaker had a distinct sweetness to it. Also, the soaker had retained its strength from the gluten with no obvious signs of breaking down. The top of the preferment did not seem to show too much activity, however when I lifted the plastic film from the top of the starter, it appears that fermentation occurred over the past two days. I'll most like mix up my final epoxy dough over the noon hour.

Jim,

Thanks for posting about your preferment and soaker this morning.

My soaker looks like it has some signs of fermentation, but am not sure. It looks like it more bubbly than the preferment. Wonder if some wild yeast might have gotten into the soaker. The preferment didn’t bubble hardly at all. It is now in the oven with the light on. I know I turned my fridge down a few weeks again, but don’t know what temperature it is now. As soon as my preferment bubbles more I will mix the final dough and post some pictures.

Norma,Yeah, it sounds like may need to bring the preferment up to room temp to make sure it is fully activated. I keep my fridge temp at 44F rather in the high 30s, so that may have something to do with the activity of my preferment. I did notice a few bubbles too in my soaker too, but I am not sure whether it is due to air bubbles moving to the surface of the dough or if it is any sort of microflora activity? However the amount of bubbling was modest to say the least. I should note that the soaker, I thought, was pretty thick for 100% hydrated dough and there was quite a bit of strength to the soaker, which I think maybe due to the water temperature. The previous soaker was thick, but it did not have this much strength too it, it is almost like a standard dough. Ill have to wait to see how the final dough turns out, but I am curious now if this method may have some application for Pizzarium/Pizza bianca style of doughs utilizing higher hydration methods.

Regardless, I look forward to hearing about your results.

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Norma,Yeah, it sounds like may need to bring the preferment up to room temp to make sure it is fully activated. I keep my fridge temp at 44F rather in the high 30s, so that may have something to do with the activity of my preferment. I did notice a few bubbles too in my soaker too, but I am not sure whether it is due to air bubbles moving to the surface of the dough or if it is any sort of microflora activity? However the amount of bubbling was modest to say the least. I should note that the soaker, I thought, was pretty thick for 100% hydrated dough and there was quite a bit of strength to the soaker, which I think maybe due to the water temperature. The previous soaker was thick, but it did not have this much strength too it, it is almost like a standard dough. Ill have to wait to see how the final dough turns out, but I am curious now if this method may have some application for Pizzarium/Pizza bianca style of doughs utilizing higher hydration methods.

Regardless, I look forward to hearing about your results.

Jim,

I think I need to check on my fridge temperature again to see how cold it is.

I also thought there was quite a bit of strength to the soaker. Interesting that you think it maybe was due to the water temperature.

I am also curious if the epoxy method might have some applications to higher hydration doughs like the Pizzarium/Pizza Bianca style of doughs.

The preferment didn’t bubble as much as I would have liked while it was in the oven (with the oven light on) for about 2 ˝ hrs., but I have to get flour today, do all the dishes from making two doughs, go to the restaurant store and make the other doughs at market, so I had to mix the final dough before I really wanted to. Since I didn’t think the preferment was bubbly enough, I did add a pinch of IDY to the final dough flour. I really don’t understand why no IDY is added to the final dough in the formulation. The dough also felt too sticky when it was mixing, so I added 13 more grams of flour to the final dough mix before the oil was added. I guess because I did use 2% oil (6 grams), it also made the final dough feel more hydrated. The final dough does feel nice though.

Since I didn’t think the preferment was bubbly enough, I did add a pinch of IDY to the final dough flour. I really don’t understand why no IDY is added to the final dough in the formulation.

Unfortunately, it sounds like you had two soaker going this weekend, given that the preferment never fully developed. I think adding in some extra IDY is completely understandable. As I have come to learn, nothing in pizza making is ever set in stone.I didn't not adapt the final dough recipe for any extra IDY, as I assumed that the preferment would develop enough over the weekend that any extra would be over kill. In fact, I was a little concerned that the preferment may overly develop, which obviously was not the case for you. Oh, well, if worse comes to worse, we can chalk it up as another learning experience.

While mixing over the noon hour I too noticed that this dough came together quickly, but was exceptionally sticky for a 64% dough as you observed. It wasn't necessarily a loose dough ball, but it was certainly tacky (which I did not attempt to correct for with extra flour nor did I add in any extra yeast). I am pretty sure my math was on but I may have goofed up somewhere. Nonetheless, below is the final dough ball. I did not add any oil to the final dough but I did lube up container.

Unfortunately, it sounds like you had two soaker going this weekend, given that the preferment never fully developed. I think adding in some extra IDY is completely understandable. As I have come to learn, nothing in pizza making is ever set in stone.I didn't not adapt the final dough recipe for any extra IDY, as I assumed that the preferment would develop enough over the weekend that any extra would be over kill. In fact, I was a little concerned that the preferment may overly develop, which obviously was not the case for you. Oh, well, if worse comes to worse, we can chalk it up as another learning experience.

While mixing over the noon hour I too noticed that this dough came together quickly, but was exceptionally sticky for a 64% dough as you observed. It wasn't necessarily a loose dough ball, but it was certainly tacky (which I did not attempt to correct for with extra flour nor did I add in any extra yeast). I am pretty sure my math was on but I may have goofed up somewhere. Nonetheless, below is the final dough ball. I did not add any oil to the final dough but I did lube up container.

Jim,

Lol, I guess I almost had two soakers going this weekend, except for the IDY in the preferment. The preferment amount of IDY in your formulation should have made the preferment bubble more in my opinion, but as I posted before my fridge might be too cold. I also have come to learn that nothing in pizza making is ever set in stone just like you. I think the reason I am so memorized with pizza dough is because always one variable can change something. I don’t think I have ever used just a preferment to be able to leaven the dough without any IDY in the final dough, unless it was a Neapolitan dough and then those doughs were left out at room temperature to ferment. Maybe I just really can’t recall either. I think the small amount of IDY I added to the final dough will help, but sure don’t know.

Thanks for posting a picture of your final dough and also noting it was sticky.

I must say the “Epoxy Method” with the preferment and soaker worked great with Jim’s formulation. The dough ball seemed to ferment just enough until this afternoon. The dough ball was left out at room temperature of about 83 degrees F for about 1 ˝ hrs to warm-up. The dough ball opened so easy and wasn’t sticky at all. The pizza slide off the peel easily and the bake went well. There was good oven spring, decent crust browning, a nice crispness on the bottom crust and the taste of the crust was really good. Steve and I thought the crust had a nice complex flavor better than using other methods. The pizza wasn’t like bread at all.

Thanks Jim for thinking of the “Epoxy Method” for us to try! I think it made a great pizza.