Strange. I just tested by posting a 6,000 word post, and all the words showed up...

« Last Edit: January 04, 2007, 08:07:12 AM by cleveland »

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"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.

The preview function does not foresee the problem, and when I tried to post the response via PM to Robert it simply cut off at the same point it did when I tried to post it as a response to a certain thread. I appreciate any assistance in this matter, thanks.

« Last Edit: January 04, 2007, 12:23:46 PM by EkhristosAnesti »

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No longer an active member of this forum. Sincerest apologies to anyone who has taken offence to anything posted in youthful ignorance or negligence prior to my leaving this forum - October, 2012.

"Philosophy is the imitation by a man of what is better, according to what is possible" - St Severus

They may be few, but they are certainly not insignificant; they evidence the fact that the Life of the Church throughout the centuries testifies that the figures in question are indeed Saints, and that their writings are spiritually efficacious in assisting the Orthodox believer in his/her journey to salvation. St. Simon the Stylite for example, of whom you said "is not amongst our fathers", is officially commemorated in the Coptic Synaxarium, the Armenian Calendar, and as our friend surajiype informs us, is remembered in the diptychs of the Syrian and Indian Orthodox Churches:

Do you not see that the implications of labelling the reception of Simon the Stylite as a Saint a â€œmistakeâ€ or a â€œdeviation from the truthâ€ are quite severe? Weâ€™re talking about a universally recognised, and for centuries at that, canonisation; weâ€™re talking about centuries and centuries of reading the account of his life and person in our Liturgical services as a living example of the Holy Gospel; weâ€™re talking about centuries and centuries of doxologies and requests for his intercession; weâ€™re talking about centuries and centuries of harbouring and venerating his relics. For centuries and centuries the faithful have been going to their Mother seeking salvation, and consistently this Faithful Bride has prescribed, as one medicinal formula amongst many, that we seek the assistance of a certain St. Simon the Stylite.

Quotewithout having any effect on the validity of the most important dogma in the Church " NO SALVATION OUTSIDE THE CHURCH".

There are two ways you can approach the above patristic axiom: 1) you can take it at face value and presuppose an interpretation of it which deems the Mind of the Church to have been mislead for centuries, or 2) you can allow the Mind of the Church to interpret it in light of the witness of Her Life to figures such as St. Simon the Stylite and St. Isaac the Syrian. Now, whilst I certainly do not think that pursuing route 1) was your intention, I believe that such is in fact what you have done. Route 2), which I believe directs us to a more honest and holistic approach to the patristic axiom in question, leads us to conclude that the patristic axiom regarding there being â€œno salvation outside the Churchâ€ is but a general principle referring to the notion that the Church is the only means known to man by which he can be saved; it does not, however, serve to exclusively, absolutely and legalistically restrict the boundaries of salvation.

QuoteThe Church is defined by communion.

Yes, generally speaking, but allow me to quote St. Augustine, a proponent of the â€œno salvation outside the Churchâ€ axiom to whom you have appealed: â€œMany of those who on earth considered themselves to be alien to the Church will find that on the day of Judgment that they are her citizen; and many of those who thought themselves to be members of the Church will, alas, be found to be alien to herâ€ [quoted by H.G. Hilarion Alfeyev in The Mystery of Faith. An Introduction to the Teaching and Spirituality of the Orthodox Church (London: Darton, Longman and Todd, 2002), p. 267]

As you can see, even St. Augustine himself does not use the axiom in the manner you have implicitly argued that he does.

The above quote from St. Augustine may be complemented by the very popular words of H.G. Kallistos Ware, who himself has thoroughly studied the patristic witness to the relationship between salvation and the boundaries of the Church: â€œWe know where the Church is, but we do not know where the Church is notâ€. I have personally discussed this notion with His Grace Bishop Youssef who has concurred with my above conclusions. Furthermore, on my trip to Egypt from which I just arrived yesterday night, I had the privilege of having lunch with Abouna Fanous of St. Paul the Anchorite's Monastery, in his cell; amongst a range of questions that I had our special friend and personal physician of Abouna Fanous ask him, was whether every individual who dies a non-Orthodox-Christian was inevitably damned to hell. He answered that such is not the case.