I can only think of 3 or 4 villains that could be considered as watered down Jokers, but I'm sure that quote wasn't meant to be applied at all obviously to any of the characters in TDKR.

The ones that come to mind that could fit that bill would be The Riddler, Mad Hatter, and to some extent, The Penguin. To me, I don't see anyone else coming close to Joker as far as motives, personality, or methods go...maybe Nolan has a slightly different perspective?

When you think about it, this movie only had one place to go, and that was Catwoman and Bane (and Talia). There's no way that Penguin, Riddler, Mr. Freeze, or anyone else could've worked in Nolan's interpretation. (Besides Black Mask)

In the reboot down the road, I can almost guarantee that we'll see some combination of Riddler, Freeze, and Penguin. Probably Riddler and Penguin if I had to put money on it.

But for TDKR, I'm surprised we didn't see it coming sooner. Poison Ivy, Mad Hatter, Killer Croc, Man-Bat, Clayface. No one else could've worked in this movie besides Bane and Catwoman.

I see what Nolan means in this context. The context of having to pick a villain with only one film remaining. Nolan wanted to bring the king of their respective field to the table. In TDK, we had The Joker. He gave mind games as well as the added bonus of total chaos. The Riddler does this in a different way with riddles. But even still, Nolan would've found it too close to comfort and not threatening in the same all out way. Even if he made him so, to him, he's already covered that part. He wanted to explore a totally different aspect. And the opposite of that is strength, and instead of chaos, total control with military precision.

I think it was mentioned eariler, however I too would have liked to have seen Nolan's take on the other villians. If nothing else, would have loved to have seen who Nolan would have chosen if he had used the Riddler or Penguin. If nothing else, it would have been cool to see what the costume designer Lindy Hemming would have came up for their designs.

He's right though. In the 70s and 80s they were all still the same character archetypes derived from the 60s TV show - goons, hideouts and deathtraps. Its only (relatively) recently that they've fleshed out unique takes on each of them. They struggled with the Riddler for decades. Same with the Penguin. And in Nolan's universe of realism the last thing he wants is another villain with a gimmick - like the Joker.

"Nobody cared who I was until I put on this top hat, monocle and cigarette holder..."

When you think about it, this movie only had one place to go, and that was Catwoman and Bane (and Talia). There's no way that Penguin, Riddler, Mr. Freeze, or anyone else could've worked in Nolan's interpretation. (Besides Black Mask)

In the reboot down the road, I can almost guarantee that we'll see some combination of Riddler, Freeze, and Penguin. Probably Riddler and Penguin if I had to put money on it.

But for TDKR, I'm surprised we didn't see it coming sooner. Poison Ivy, Mad Hatter, Killer Croc, Man-Bat, Clayface. No one else could've worked in this movie besides Bane and Catwoman.

That's going to be hard to pull off following nolan without the campiness aspect creeping up. These characters are very easy to slip into campy territory especially if the "nolan realism" aspect is watered down a bit.

I mean how can you follow a menacing bane with a squawking dwarf or green suit/ bowler hat wearing menace? I actually think nolan could have worked quite well with bringing these characters to life if he chose to but it'll be hard seeing them as serious threats imo.

I guess I'm repeating myself here, but if Nolan is saying anything about the villains in his recent interviews it's that they all have some sort of archetype that they fall under. In order to bring something fresh to the franchise he's tackling a different archetype, that being Bane. The Penguin, at least in his more recent incarnations, is simply a mobster running around town, and we've already had a ton of that in the films to make it seem fresh.

Catwoman is perfect in this regard since she is, ostensibly, the femme fatale, and Nolan's realistic/noir take on the Batman mythos has been sort of missing that archetype altogether. That isn't to say that he's using Catwoman because he's run out of characters or anything like that. It makes sense to the story, especially after Rachel's death.

Bane is easily understood as the next big villain because he is a natural escalation to Batman's classic rogues gallery - that's Knightfall pretty much down the middle. A big-bad who manipulates the entire collection of baddies to get to his goal, and succeeds. To an extent, Hush would have been equally suitable in this regard. But Nolan had that other criterion to fill: the "final chapter" angle. And Bane did come across in a story that promised a sort of finality to Batman that Hush or Strange could never establish. It all works pretty well in hindsight.

And for what its worth, I hope WB doesn't release another Batman film in a good long while... there are so many other franchises they can work on. Don't bore the audience away with just one kind of meal. Realistic, detective-vigilantism isn't the only kind of super-heroism out there!

__________________

THE JUSTICE BULLETIN published some of my thematic analysis on the symbolism in Nolan's superhero saga.
I call it Heroic Archetypes. You can read the parts on Batman Begins in the following links:
(pt 1; pt 2; pt 3; pt 4; pt 5; pt 6; pt 7)

Batman is what we need. Unfortunately, WB fumbled the Green Lantern franchise (which had great potential and still does). Superman? Yes he's an icon and the next film is shaping up pretty nicely, but who else? Flash? Martian Manhunter? Aquaman? These heroes can never be what the Batman is.

No one else captivates us like the Dark Knight. Sure, some heroes may dazzle us with their flashy powers and colorful villains, but in the end, Batman needs to be there. Even the entire Justice League is boring without Batman, although he realistically has no place hanging out with gods and space cops.

Yes, its nice to have other "flavors" to change it up, but Batman is like your favorite chinese take-out. Hits the spot every time.

Yeah but I don't want to eat Chinese every day of the week. And I'll probably never agree with you that those other characters CAN'T be the same marketable awesomeness that Batman has been :P

The Man of Steel
The Flash
Wonder Woman
Green Lantern
Even the crazy, conspiracy-theorist Martian Manhunter. You telling me that people won't pay to see that? Hell no.

And there are other mainstream DC properties as well who are outside of the JLA. The episodes in the animated show where Batman wasn't present were never boring. And the greater point is that between the famous superheroes of DC, like Supes, WW, Flash, and GL, Batman is really, really overused by WB. I love it, I'm a fan of Bats, and always will be. But I'd like a good long break from his cinematic, live-action escapades and watch some other superhero after TDKR. I don't want an immediate reboot after the amazing trilogy that Nolan's constructed.

__________________

THE JUSTICE BULLETIN published some of my thematic analysis on the symbolism in Nolan's superhero saga.
I call it Heroic Archetypes. You can read the parts on Batman Begins in the following links:
(pt 1; pt 2; pt 3; pt 4; pt 5; pt 6; pt 7)

i do think riddler would have been a watered down version of NOLAN's joker. In the comics they are different enough.

Are they really? I was never impressed with the Riddler. I mean, what does he really do? His whole thing is to prove he's more intelligent than the Batman, but his crimes are rarely very dangerous or threatening, and he's usually easily apprehended by Batman. The Joker..Two-Face...Ra's al Ghul, now, if one of those three made a threat, I'd be scared. They mean business.

Yeah but I don't want to eat Chinese every day of the week. And I'll probably never agree with you that those other characters CAN'T be the same marketable awesomeness that Batman has been :P

The Man of Steel
The Flash
Wonder Woman
Green Lantern
Even the crazy, conspiracy-theorist Martian Manhunter. You telling me that people won't pay to see that? Hell no.

And there are other mainstream DC properties as well who are outside of the JLA. The episodes in the animated show where Batman wasn't present were never boring. And the greater point is that between the famous superheroes of DC, like Supes, WW, Flash, and GL, Batman is really, really overused by WB. I love it, I'm a fan of Bats, and always will be. But I'd like a good long break from his cinematic, live-action escapades and watch some other superhero after TDKR. I don't want an immediate reboot after the amazing trilogy that Nolan's constructed.

Fair enough. While I don't disagree with you, the idea of no Batman for a long time makes me nervous lol!

I have to admit I wasn't really excited about this movie as I was for TDK just because Bane isn't really one of my fave Bat villians ( though I do like him and the Knight Fall arch). I would have much rather seen Riddler, Pengiun, or Hugo Strange, Black Mask, or even DeadShot and DeathStroke in the film over Bane.

Even Mr Freeze could be done in a realistic way sorta. I saw a story on Extreme Home Make Over a few years ago, about a family who had daughter with a medical condition that required her to wear a vest with some sort of coolant in it to keep her body from over heating. That could be one way to make him a bit more realistic.

Anyway, after seeing this new trailer I am sold on Bane now and I more excited than ever to see this! Bring on July lol!

The Riddler, from a story perspective, IS just a watered down, less interesting and imposing version of the Joker.

Nolan understands the pure essence and meaning of all the characters he has used. So he actually BOILS these characters down to their most MEANINGFUL story attributes, removing the crap, and makes them STRONGER.

In fact all his villains, including in some cases their slight alterations have all (IMO) been superior improvements. Whether from a character background perspective, a psychological perspective, a visual perspective.

Bane - VASTLY improved character from an interesting background perspective, a VASTLY improved character from an aesthetics perspective (WAY, WAY more interesting), and we've yet to see the psychology perspective but I'm sure that is a vast improvement as well. His maks almost being a muzzle for such a violent, animalistic type character. The calm of his walk and gaze a startling conflict to the BRUTALITY that lurks beneath the surface.

the Joker - VASTLY improved character from a visual perspective and psychological.

I'll explain. In the comics, the all white body works. In the real world, specifically referencing B89 ... his skin LOOKS like white makeup. You can even see it rubbing off on his shirts. So if you're bringin these comics or cartoons into the real world, with REAL people, in REAL settings ... you have to tweak them for the medium. The white makeup on the face, with the flesh toned neck makes the clown face POP even more.

Ledger's Joker wearing makeup to me is an improvement from an aesthetics perspective, and from a psychological perspective. Batman didn't "create" the Joker LITERALLY (and over simplified) by dropping him in acid. Rather it's "war paint" ... Batman's appearance in Gotham has INSPIRED freaks, that have now put the city in danger. Makes Batman feel even more a sense of regret or guilt that he has inspired such madness.

The sloppy makeup, black eyes, smeared on bright red lipstick over such a vicious scar is visually arresting and quite frankly more intimidating image. And as you can see it might be the most popular visual interpretation of the character. It has bombarded pop culture since 2007.

I like that Nolan's Joker looks dirty, dresses eccentric (not fancy), as it relfects a YOUTHFUL, and natural rebeliousness against society. I like the grungy, street feel ... as if seemingly from nowehere (akin to John Doe from Se7en) that this "wild card" just appeared from the gutters of Gotham. He looks dirty, he looks derranged, his teeth are yellow ... I like the more unkept look of the Joker. It reflects rebeliousness, crazy and chaotic nature better.

I never understood why the Joker should be potrayed, given his psychological nature of being nihlistic, as being someone who would care about societal norms such as looks and be potrayed in a physical VEIN or appealing way.

He has this giant scar, or deformity making him perpetually smiling, but he cares about looking nice? Umm, I don't get it. Being eccentric with his dress is one thing, being vein about it doesn't reflect the character's psychology to me as well as it could.

Alex from a Clockwork Orange + John Doe from Se7en + Johnny Rotten + Comic book Joker = One of the best and sickest movie villains of ALL TIME.

The Riddler, from a story perspective, IS just a watered down, less interesting and imposing version of the Joker.

Nolan understands the pure essence and meaning of all the characters he has used. So he actually BOILS these characters down to their most MEANINGFUL story attributes, removing the crap, and makes them STRONGER.

In fact all his villains, including in some cases their slight alterations have all (IMO) been superior improvements. Whether from a character background perspective, a psychological perspective, a visual perspective.

Bane - VASTLY improved character from an interesting background perspective, a VASTLY improved character from an aesthetics perspective (WAY, WAY more interesting), and we've yet to see the psychology perspective but I'm sure that is a vast improvement as well. His maks almost being a muzzle for such a violent, animalistic type character. The calm of his walk and gaze a startling conflict to the BRUTALITY that lurks beneath the surface.

the Joker - VASTLY improved character from a visual perspective and psychological.

I'll explain. In the comics, the all white body works. In the real world, specifically referencing B89 ... his skin LOOKS like white makeup. You can even see it rubbing off on his shirts. So if you're bringin these comics or cartoons into the real world, with REAL people, in REAL settings ... you have to tweak them for the medium. The white makeup on the face, with the flesh toned neck makes the clown face POP even more.

Ledger's Joker wearing makeup to me is an improvement from an aesthetics perspective, and from a psychological perspective. Batman didn't "create" the Joker LITERALLY (and over simplified) by dropping him in acid. Rather it's "war paint" ... Batman's appearance in Gotham has INSPIRED freaks, that have now put the city in danger. Makes Batman feel even more a sense of regret or guilt that he has inspired such madness.

The sloppy makeup, black eyes, smeared on bright red lipstick over such a vicious scar is visually arresting and quite frankly more intimidating image. And as you can see it might be the most popular visual interpretation of the character. It has bombarded pop culture since 2007.

I like that Nolan's Joker looks dirty, dresses eccentric (not fancy), as it relfects a YOUTHFUL, and natural rebeliousness against society. I like the grungy, street feel ... as if seemingly from nowehere (akin to John Doe from Se7en) that this "wild card" just appeared from the gutters of Gotham. He looks dirty, he looks derranged, his teeth are yellow ... I like the more unkept look of the Joker. It reflects rebeliousness, crazy and chaotic nature better.

I never understood why the Joker should be potrayed, given his psychological nature of being nihlistic, as being someone who would care about societal norms such as looks and be potrayed in a physical VEIN or appealing way.

He has this giant scar, or deformity making him perpetually smiling, but he cares about looking nice? Umm, I don't get it. Being eccentric with his dress is one thing, being vein about it doesn't reflect the character's psychology to me as well as it could.

Alex from a Clockwork Orange + John Doe from Se7en + Johnny Rotten + Comic book Joker = One of the best and sickest movie villains of ALL TIME.

He may not care about 'looking nice', but it's not like he'll go around in a t-shirt and jeans, or a hoodie...even Ledger's one. There is some warped sense of wardrobe flair in just about any incarnation of him. There may not be much more explanation to that other than it completes the package, design-wise. His own 'uniform', so to speak. I think they kept that for TDK, but interpreted the feel/style of it for that version/film.

And it's more about punk, grunge, rebelious, youthful, eccentic, against societal norms psychological perspective on the Joker.

He thinks society and what they live by is a joke, so why dress to what they consider standards?

You mean like a button-down shirt, vest, tie, and suit pants with a long coat? Now there's an original combination.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NolansKnight

They actually toyed with giving the Joker his classic purple suit coat, suspenders, dress pants and GASP ... a t-shirt. And the look still would've made sense.

It was a shirt that Hemming had an idea for that I believe kept interchanging the words laughter, and slaughter on it. Could've been just as cool. Not as iconic, but cool and would make sense.

There was actually a design for the Joker with what seemed like winter time with a scarf that if Ledger was alive for TDK Rises, would've made for a great winter time image.

Seems like they eventually decided on the right combo, though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NolansKnight

I said that, didn't I?

Yes, but you also mentioned it doesn't have a sense of polish or fancifulness to it, when it does in it's own twisted way. It's not torn or too disheveled, it's not dirty unless it's right after a fight. I think perhaps the colors give it a sort of grungy feel that, say, lack suits with white shirts may not...but that wouldn't quite look right on any Joker.

Put it this way...he looks more 'Mod' than 'Grunge' to me, attire-wise....with both being anchored in rebellion et al, but the former having more 'neatness' to it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NolansKnight

I don't agree with the Joker being vein, though. It's counter-intuative to what the character represents.

I think there may be a little vanity to this version of the Joker....but in this storyline he's in such control of every situation that he's not really challenged to a level for it to come out....and he's not exactly looking to be loved. I think there is a part of him that gets at least a little heated when he's mocked (instead of outright feared)...as anyone would of course, but he's less apt to 'shake it off' in the bigger scheme of things, so to speak. Maybe more to do with a deep insecurity rather than actual vanity, but back to his clothes....having some fancifulness to it doesn't really address vanity. If he's going to wear something that matches certain stripes with certain colors or what have you, it doesn't mean he's seeking fashion-approval for it.

And it's still a button-down, vest, tie, and suit pants with a long coat.

Once again ... ok? The shirt look I described would've made sense from a pyshcological perspective of TDK Joker.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KalMart

it's not dirty unless it's right after a fight.

Not really. It's always dirty. He lets the makeup rot, the coat is dirty, his hands have what look like makeup and blood on it.

Nolan said looking at him you should even get the sense he smells bad. That isn't vanity in the SLIGHTEST.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KalMart

Put it this way...he looks more 'Mod' than 'Grunge' to me, attire-wise....with both being anchored in rebellion et al, but the former having more 'neatness' to it.

He looks eccentric, GRUNGY, street like and psychotic. I don't know what "mod" is anyway. If you mean "mob", I don't think the Joker should ever be emulating a class of villain he's trying to one up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KalMart

I think there may be a little vanity to this version of the Joker....

None, physically, what so ever. Even plays into the whole masochistic nature of the character. Wanting to die, "Now we're talking", "Cmon hit me", etc. He's willing to die. He doesn't care about his look.

He has arrogance of his actions. Calling it out on TV before it happens, because it makes it a GAME with Batman. But he's not vein at all.

Once again ... ok? The shirt look I described would've made sense from a pyshcological perspective of TDK Joker.

Not really. It's always dirty. He lets the makeup rot, the coat is dirty, his hands have what look like makeup and blood on it.

Nolan said looking at him you should even get the sense he smells bad. That isn't vanity in the SLIGHTEST.

I never said it was all about vanity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NolansKnight

He looks eccentric, GRUNGY, street like and psychotic. I don't know what "mod" is anyway. If you mean "mob", I don't think the Joker should ever be emulating a class of villain he's trying to one up.

The hair and overall facial area seems grungy, but not so much the fashion. Maybe we have different definitions for it, but I just don't see it as grunge. It's got proper qualities in its own right, even some polish, but again, the overall purpose isn't necessarily to 'look good'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NolansKnight

None, physically, what so ever.

Again, if there is, it's buried down deep somewhere and isn't something that his actual fashion is addressing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NolansKnight

Even plays into the whole masochistic nature of the character. Wanting to die, "Now we're talking", "Cmon hit me", etc. He's willing to die. He doesn't care about his look.

He has arrogance of his actions. Calling it out on TV before it happens, because it makes it a GAME with Batman. But he's not vain at all.

See again..does he 'care' about his look? Yes, in that there was some thought/approach put into it. No in that he's not seeking some sort of approval or admiration...or disapproval...for it. Basically it's like on someone else, it could be a nice way to dress...darker shades but still a nice pattern on the shirt, a vest, etc. But on him, it could just represents something more sinister as part of the package.

So I don't see it as being purposely 'grungy' or unkempt. It has its own sense of order, but not for the purposes of him 'looking nice'. Otherwise, it probably wouldn't be a tie, and button down, and vest, and.....you know what I mean.

I love Nolan's Batman, but at the same time I can't wait for a fresh look at the movie franchise. Somebody has to have the skill to make an intelligent movie while still keeping the comic book stuff. More true to the books.