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EU Roundtable #2.2

Next
up on our plate is my personal fave of Series 2. And I?m not just saying that
because I?m in it. The theme here was the politics of Star Wars: was the Rebellion
a terrorist organization? Would the Empire have fared better against the
Yuuzhan Vong? Those questions and more were debated exquisitely by our three
guests, each representing one of the GFFA?s three eras of government:

Chief
of State Marah Wojcik, aka NaboosPrincess,
Manager for the Jedi Council?s Role Playing and EU Community forums.

Okay, so maybe there?s a slight bias in these things toward
JC people. What do you want from me? Anyway, I remain Mike Cooper. Here
goes?

You have just entered room
"EU Roundtable."

Mike Cooper: While you'd think the political message
of Star Wars is pretty cut and dry, there will always remain a division of
fandom that thinks the Empire was the right way to go. Often citing the old
"trains run on time" adage, they tend to prefer security and order to
a free yet ineffectual representative democracy. It's an argument that certainly
didn't start with the Rebels and the Empire, and certainly won't be ending
anytime soon. Where is the line between freedom and security?

David Pinkus: It's
important to note that, in a democracy, the line between freedom and security
is where the people decide it is.

Jay Shah: That depends
on whether or not someone really has freedoms. Freedoms don't necessarily exist
if they are not protected. Sometimes democracies tend to devolve into mob rule,
or personal self-interest--rather than that of a whole.

David Pinkus: The
problem wasn't with the Republic in allowing the Empire to come to power. The
problem was with the people wanting it to occur.

David Pinkus: Given
that the Republic was effective for 25,000 years in protecting the public and
safeguarding commerce, and that the Empire lasted a mere 30 years or so, with
everyone wanting things back the way they were, I'd say the Republic

David Pinkus: was the
way to go

Mike Cooper: the problem wasn't that they wanted the
empire, they were just not involved enough to stop it

David Pinkus: And
didn't the Moffs encourage "personal self-interest" far greater than
a Republic would?

Jay Shah: The Republic
did, though, change governments several times during massive galactic
upheavals. If that sort of widespread devastation is necessary to uphold lofty
ideals, I don't think that it is necessarily enough to protect it.

Jay Shah: The Moffs?
How so?

Marah Wojcik:
Because half of them were corrupt and only interested in getting rich, maybe?

Jay Shah: Like the
entire Galactic Senate, you mean?

Jay Shah: Don't forget
what the Senate was: a rule by the elite, utterly disinterested in the public
good. We saw that well enough, with large businesses able to run amok.

David Pinkus: Moffs
as regional governors kept the systems in line, according to their own dictates
and whims. The Senate had to gain buy in from the rest of the senators in order
to line their pockers.

David Pinkus: pockets

David Pinkus: Moffs
answered to no one but the Emperor

Jay Shah: With massive
military-grade weaponry, and even representation as a sovereign state in the
Senate? That's massively corrupt.

Jay Shah: Untrue:
Moffs were answerable to other authorities. Grand Moffs were the ones who
answered only to the Emperor, and they were still subject to higher levels of
the Imperial chain of command.

Mike Cooper: i thought fear kept the systems in line
- fear of this battlestation

Jay Shah: Case in
point, Imperial Advisor Ars Dangor, the man who appointed Grand Moff Tarkin was
clearly not the Emperor.

Jay Shah: Cooper, that
was Tarkin's personal beliefs, but not Imperial policy.

Mike Cooper: Tarkin Doctrine

Mike Cooper: maybe not policy, but intention

Jay Shah: Yes. Which
is a nice way of naming his own beliefs, expressed in a communique to Ars
Dangor.

David Pinkus: Right,
but the Senate didn't have fear to keep systems in line. They had the
constitution and laws which governed their own behavior.

Mike Cooper: but it went beyond him, didn't it?

Jay Shah: Tarkin's
intention. Quite possibly not the Emperor's, because Lord Vader expressed that
Palpatine would not approve of Alderaan's distruction.

David Pinkus: Local
militias existed as protection for individual systems, but before Palpatine
there was no Grand Army of the Republic.

Jay Shah: It governed
the behaviors of systems, yes. But what of the Senate?

Jay Shah: And what if
institutions like the Guilds?

David Pinkus: What of
the Senate?

Jay Shah: The Senate
was not an egalitarian institution. It was an elite group of the highest
stratification of society, and the Senators made deals with the rich Guilds in
order to pass legislation that agreed with them.

Jay Shah: Through
that, the common person was hurt and disenfranchised--but clearly, it was
acceptable under a Republic not willing to reduce it's own ability to make
money.

Mike Cooper: but was that the fault of the system, of
of the individuals?

David Pinkus: Not all
of them. And certainly 25,000 years of history indicates that it did a good job
for a long, LONG time

Mike Cooper: *or of

Jay Shah: It was the
fault of the system that allowed such individuals to escape unpunished.

Marah Wojcik: How
would you punish them?

Jay Shah: As for those
25,000 years, I might remind you that it was not a contiguous history.

Jay Shah: Remove them
from office, for one.

Jay Shah: Then have
them tried under the law.

Marah Wojcik: That's
the job of the people they represent, no? They need to hold their own senators
accountable. You can't blame the system

David Pinkus: Wasn't
Finis Valorum removed for such infractions?

Jay Shah: The people
they represent have no control over them, and no power over them.

Jay Shah: Yes, the
former Chancellor was removed--but only because it was politically expedient.

Jay Shah: Such charges
were good at blackmailing others to get their way.

David Pinkus: But
weren't the checks in place and functional that allowed it?

Jay Shah: The checks
were in place, if hardly used.

Jay Shah: The GalacticRepublic functioned well, I admit.
When it ceased to do so, something had to be done in the interests of the
People.

Jay Shah: There is a
such thing as becoming too top-heavy.

David Pinkus: Back to
the history though. 25,000 years of the Republic. Dealing with the Great
Hyperspace War, the Great Sith War, the Stark Hyperspace War

David Pinkus: It
functioned well enough to protect the citizens during all of those times.

Jay Shah: Indeed,
which was why the Republic ostensibly still existed under the Imperial regime.

Mike Cooper: well, that's debatable given KOTOR 2

David Pinkus: We
don't know the whole story yet

Mike Cooper: we know enough

Jay Shah: The Imperial
Senate existed, and the institutions of the Republic (ref. Imperial Sourcebook)
were completely operational

Jay Shah: And yes,
there is KOTOR 2 that shows a supposed collapse of the Republic or somesuch.

Mike Cooper: i think it'll probably end up being more
a matter of the scales tipping toward the sith than of the republic falling
altogether

David Pinkus: WE
don't know exactly the impact, because EVERY other source we have indicates it
was 25,000 years of unbroken Republic.

Jay Shah: Palpatine:
...a Republic that has lasted over a 1,000 years...

David Pinkus: The
Senate was operational right up until Palpatine could abolish it.

Jay Shah: The Senate
was never abolished. It was merely suspended for the duration of the emergency.

David Pinkus: Yep.
Reformation, not elimiation

Jay Shah: Then,
reinstituted just before the Battle of Hoth.

Jay Shah: The Senate
was only out of session for a few months.

Mike Cooper: so the 1000 years reference is only to a
restructuring of the government?

Mike Cooper: that's three years

Jay Shah: A massive
restructuring, at that.

Jay Shah: Given that
we know from the Tales of the Jedi comics that the Republic was vastly
different than it was near its demise

David Pinkus: Yes,
the 1000 years is a reference to the Reformation of the Republic.

Mike Cooper: though oddly little changed
technology-wise =)

Marah Wojcik: Even
so, some restructure is expected in an institution spanning thousands of years.
Obviously it can't stay exactly the same forever.

Jay Shah: Which is the
precise reason for the Empire.

Jay Shah: It was yet
another restructuring--most of the Republican institutions, down to the Senate,
remained.

Mike Cooper: he's got a point there

Jay Shah: Thank you.

David Pinkus:
Actually, the technology gets worse under the Empire, as is clearly shown via
absolute canon between TPM/AOTC and ANH

Marah Wojcik: No, I
think the Empire was far more than a "restructure"

Jay Shah: Explain.

Mike Cooper: but arguing that the empire's rise was
necessary and arguing that it was a worthwhile system in and of itself are two
different things

Jay Shah: Are you
comparing the technology of Coruscant and Naboo to a rim world such as
Tatooine?

Jay Shah: Because in
TPM and AOTC, Tatooine has not changed much by the time of ANH.

Jay Shah: Though it is
curious that the defenders of justice in the Republic cannot be bothered to
even free slaves. :-)

Mike Cooper: it's a big galaxy

David Pinkus:
Honestly, do you believe that if the Senate passed a law for equality for all
species under Palpatine that he'd go for it and not unilaterally veto it?

Jay Shah: Already
done.

Mike Cooper: we can't even eliminate slavery on this
planet

Jay Shah: As per the
Imperial Sourcebook, all Imperial Citizens--regardless of species or
status--are equal.

Jay Shah: Any
perceived inequality is due to personal pique, and is present even before the
institution of Imperial Rule.

Marah Wojcik: In
policy, not in practice

Mike Cooper: so how'd the whole High Human Culture
thing happen?

David Pinkus:
"Developed by Emperor Palpatine himself, the idea of Human High Culture
was deeply rooted in his xenophobic mentality."

Jay Shah: Human High
Culture is coined from a speech by Minister Pollux Hax, in charge of Imperial
propaganda. In said speech, the minister referred to the successes of the human
race--especially since humanity was the originator of the

Jay Shah: Republic.

Mike Cooper: that's debatable, isn't it?

Jay Shah: Emperor
Palpatine's mentality comes from his homeworld of Naboo, a world which was
considered--under the Republic--to be a wellspring of culture.

Mike Cooper: they almost definitely didn't invent
hyperdrive

Jay Shah: Certainly,
Cooper, which is why it is not policy.

Mike Cooper: i meant the originator of the republic
part

Jay Shah: It is merely
a propaganda speech to make young youths feel good about themselves.

David Pinkus:
Actually, hyperdrive is under debate as there's some confusion over how it got
"invented"

David Pinkus: So, to
be fair, humans may have (though not the original story)

Mike Cooper: last i heard it'd been given to the
corellians by some other race, and they streamlined it

David Pinkus: The
original story was "given to Corellians by extragalactic race"

Jay Shah: True enough,
but the minister was referring to the Republican government itself.

Jay Shah: Which began
on Coruscant.

Mike Cooper: but humans never held sole dominion over
coruscant, did they?

Jay Shah: We don't
know.

David Pinkus: Given
the species in the lower reaches we can assume "not"

Jay Shah: All we know
about Coruscant--Imperial Center's--ancient history is that there was a battle
between the Taungs and the Zhell, and that it was likely the human homeworld.

Mike Cooper: alright, let's move on

Mike Cooper: A logical follow-up to the last question
would, once you feel that the line between freedom and security has been crossed,
what should you do about it? Obviously, the Rebel Alliance decided it was
necessary to overthrow the system, and eventually did just that. It came at
great cost to both sides, however, and to the galaxy at large. The Empire went
to great efforts to utilize this fact as a political tool, painting the
Alliance as a harbinger of governmental chaos, as a terrorist organization, if
you will. Calling the Rebels terrorists is an extremely touchy concept,
especially in the modern political climate here on Earth, but how do you think
the loved ones of a contruction worker aboard the second Death Star would react
to a sermon on the Alliance's high-minded ideals?

Jay Shah: If the
Rebellion sought to protect the people of the galaxy, why would the Rebellion
kill them?

David Pinkus: The
Rebellion WAS a harbinger of governmental chaos-- but when the government is
"totalitarian despotism" it's the way to go. An important note here
is that they were trying to restore the same Republic that people decry.

Jay Shah: That is what
I would wonder, if my father or brother was killed.

David Pinkus:
Construction workers who choose to work on legitimate military targets are
legitimate targets.

Jay Shah: And Tarkin
was a very bad man, who deliberately disobeyed Imperial law.

David Pinkus: It's
one thing to build housing for citizens in a totalitarian government.

Jay Shah: Not to
mention, Tarkin had designs on the Throne itself.

David Pinkus: No one
is suggesting those people are "fair game"

Jay Shah: if the
Empire is totalitarian, who is the despot?

Marah Wojcik: Well
he was certainly allowed to disobey Imperial law for a nice long time before
anything happened to him. He was part of the Empire so I don't think we can
disregard his actions entirely.

David Pinkus: NOTE:
Clarity; it's okay to target the workers when they're ON the legitimate target,
not when they're at home and happen to be working on a project during work
hours.

Jay Shah: The Emperor
certainly isn't: he's a recluse.

Jay Shah: Marah: A
single person is not representative of a governmental system.

David Pinkus: Yes,
you're right. The Emperor had no real power in the Empire. [sarcasm alert!]

Jay Shah: He had
power: he did not exercise it.

Marah Wojcik: How in
the world do you figure that one?

David Pinkus: The
Emperor dissolved the senate./

Jay Shah: Wrong.

David Pinkus: Who
dissolved the Senate?

Jay Shah: It was
suspended for the duration--and by Ars Dangor, not the Emperor.

Jay Shah: Furthermore,
by the Battle of Hoth, the Senate was restored.

Mike Cooper: man. that guy was busy

David Pinkus: Giving
Darth Vader unilateral power himself seems like power and exercising therein to
me.

Jay Shah: For the
simple virtue that said Imperial citizen was a criminal. A criminal who was
unlawfully using military force in capital terrority. AND arming civilian
spacecraft as ell.

Mike Cooper: yet you don't seem to see anything wrong
with the flaws in the empire that allowed for "personal" corruption,
like the tarkin doctrine, anti-alien prejudice, etc

Jay Shah: The Empire
is not perfect. However, she does work to protect all her citizens.

Marah Wojcik: Right,
by making a good portion of them into slaves

Jay Shah: By law,
anti-alien prejudice is not allowed. Unfortunately, by practice, those in the
Core tend to lookdown upon those of the Rim--and the Core is human dominated.

David Pinkus: As well
as Emperor Palpatine exercising his authority with a cadre of assassins known as
Hands that answered only to him, eliminating anyone whom he desired --
Imperial, Rebellion, civilian

Mike Cooper: but flaws that lead to
disenfranchisement are worse than flaws that lead to oppression?

Jay Shah: The only
planet that was enslaved, by my knowledge, was Kashyyyk--which I addressed
earlier.

Jay Shah: Cooper: It's
about numbers. The majority was better under the Empire.

Jay Shah: Both systems
were imperfect.

Mike Cooper: really?

Marah Wojcik: But it
allowed for the slave trade, even if it wasn't enslaving entire planets

Jay Shah: It's just a
question of which was worse.

Jay Shah: The slave
trade was not legal

Mike Cooper: by what statistics would you consider
the majority to have been better off?

David Pinkus: So, slavery
wasn't allowed in the Republic and slavery wasn't allowed in the Empire. But
one more planet (Kashyyyk) was enslaved under the Empire, so that's not a
Pareto Improvement.

Jay Shah: Trillions in
the Core and billions in the Outer Rim.

Jay Shah: And slavery
on Tatooine and other worlds was ended, David.

Mike Cooper: you're saying the core outnumbers the
other two-thirds of the galaxy?

Jay Shah: We know it
does.

David Pinkus: Slavery
wasn't ended on Tatooine.

Jay Shah: How so?

David Pinkus: Oola.

David Pinkus: Ryloth.

David Pinkus: Han
Solo's Revenge.

Jay Shah: Jabba the
Hutt was a crime lord, and one belonging to Black Sun-- an institution utterly
destroyed by the Empire (ref. Wedge's Gamble)

Mike Cooper: where is that from? i can't imagine
there aren't more than 999 billion people in the entire outer rim

David Pinkus: But if
it exists it's not ENDED.

Jay Shah: as for Hutt
Space itself, the Empire made an effort to put the region under law

Mike Cooper: so did the vong

Jay Shah: the Vong had
no law.

David Pinkus: Sure
they did.

Jay Shah: The Vong
simply killed them all.

David Pinkus: The
Vong had as much law as the Empire did.

Jay Shah: The Empire
also brought modern medicine and civilization to Rim worlds, and ended the
milennia long Sepan Civil War--one that the Republic noticeably ignored.

Mike Cooper: they didn't wipe out every planet they
conquered; they had to govern people somehow

David Pinkus: Because
you didn't understand it, doesn't mean it's not there.

Jay Shah: Conceded,
David, regarding Vong laws.

David Pinkus: (NOTE:
*I* don't understand it either. I have the death penalty in twelve systems...)

Mike Cooper: only twelve?

Jay Shah: Those that
he committed crimes in.

David Pinkus: I'm
working on thirteen.

Jay Shah: The Imperial
system says that all worlds are self-governred

Marah Wojcik: So the
Empire did a few good things, Jay...bringing medicine to some Rim world doesn't
make up for all the other injustices they perpetuated

David Pinkus: Doesn't
that mean that if slavery is allowed by the government, it's allowed?

Jay Shah: As long as
they agree with overarching Imperial laws, existing governments remain in
place.

Jay Shah: No, because
that disagrees with overarching Imperial law.

David Pinkus: Omwat
and Falleen races were obilterated by the Empire.

David Pinkus: One by
bombardment and the other by bioweapon.

David Pinkus:
Alderaan was destroyed.

Jay Shah: Omwat was
not obliterated--just a few cities. Furthermore, Tarkin's conduct is not such that
I will defend.

David Pinkus: Yet he
was allowed to continue his work unabated.

David Pinkus: And
without penalty.

Mike Cooper: okay, as great as this particular
discussion is going, we kinda drifted away from the primary intention of the
last question, so i'll be more direct about it: could the rebellion have been
classified as a terrorist organization?

Jay Shah: Yes.

David Pinkus: So
which is worse -- a corrupt Senator not being removed, or the destroyer of
worlds being allowed to survive?

David Pinkus: Yes

David Pinkus: But
only by an illegitimate government making the claim.

Mike Cooper: well, define legitimate

Marah Wojcik: I'll
go with yes, too....though they were really forced into it

Jay Shah: If it's
illegitimate, then so is the Senate's authority--which makes no sense.

Mike Cooper: not accepting a despot's authority over
you doesn't make you any less oppressed

David Pinkus: The
Republic was supposed to be a republic, not an Empire ruled from an Emperor.

David Pinkus: Hence,
illegitimate.

Mike Cooper: but what makes the republic legitimate?
longevity?

Jay Shah: What makes
the worlds that the Republic took by force legitimate?

Mike Cooper: government only exists inasmuch as it's
not challenged

Jay Shah: Yes.

Jay Shah: It's for the
people.

Marah Wojcik: And
the people overthrew the Empire

Jay Shah: If the
people and their representatives feel they are best served by a monarch.

David Pinkus: And the
Republic tried to engender equality for all -- in practice as well as theory.

Jay Shah: Wrong, and
even admitted by the Rebellion, Marah.

Jay Shah: Only a tiny
minority of the galaxy disliked the Empire.

Jay Shah: A fraction
so tiny as to be non-existent

David Pinkus: Only because
humans are a virus.

David Pinkus: [shrug]

David Pinkus: A
fraction so tiny?

Mike Cooper: david, the matrix roundtable is down the
hall =)

Jay Shah: Yes. Let me
find a quote.

David Pinkus: I'd say
there were quite a few races not thrilled with the Empire that make up a
statistically significant sample size.

Mike Cooper: by all means, jay

Mike Cooper: i still want to know where it says there
are more people in the core than the rest of the galaxy

Jay Shah: This is from
an essay that is not my own, but it uses the "Rebel Alliance
Sourcebook" as the source and quotes some phrases.

Jay Shah: Major
Hextrophon comments in the Rebel Alliance Sourcebook (West End Games, 1994)
that one finds ?there is still much skepticism concerning the Rebellion? in the
Core, where many view the rebels as ?brigands, pirates and anarchists

Jay Shah: ."

Jay Shah: if the
existent laws are the same, how is the Empire oppressing people

David Pinkus: Wait.
That's the evidence for "fraction so tiny?"

Jay Shah: Imperial
Sourcebook: "The Empire has not completely altered the governments of
hundreds of thousands of worlds.Less than one planet in 80 has been so
modified."

Mike Cooper: well, if the empire says so it must be
true =)

Marah Wojcik:
Perhaps they think of them a pirates because they don't truly know what the
Rebellion is all about, and because they are living in the Core they're
constantly bombarded by Imperial propoganda.

David Pinkus: Right,
but that's a) from the mouths of the Imperials (which is hardly unbiased) and
b) not reflective of how many worlds are cooperating out of FEAR rather than
LOVE for the Empire.

Jay Shah: the Imperial
Sourcebook is written by Rebel historians

Jay Shah: it's a Rebel
source, canonically

Jay Shah: "Imperial
changes have created resentment on some worlds, but the resentment is rarely
cause enough for significant support of the Rebellion.?

David Pinkus: Dammit!
My apartment is packed up and I can't dig mine out!

Jay Shah: same source,
from a Rebel's mouth

Mike Cooper: okay, david is running out of time, so
let's get to the last topic

Mike Cooper: The Galactic Civil War, for better or
for worse, proved to be a long and messy ordeal that led into years of
infighting between the many members of the New Republic, and a government that,
when faced with the invasion of an outside force, proved almost totally
ineffective. Would the Empire have stood a better chance at repelling the
Yuuzhan Vong?

David Pinkus:
Unquestionably yes.

Jay Shah: Definately.

Marah Wojcik:
Definitely.

David Pinkus: See! We
can find common ground!

Mike Cooper: ::looks at watch:: um...argue anyway

Jay Shah: Lovely. Long
live the Emperor.

Jay Shah: Uh, we can
argue the second part again.

Marah Wojcik: That
doesn't mean it's a bad thing the Empire feel, though

Marah Wojcik: er,
fell

Mike Cooper: well, let me rephrase the question

David Pinkus: Okay,
the thing is -- pre-Palpatine, there would have been very little impetus for
the local militias to band together and crush the Vong at Vector Prime.

Mike Cooper: what was the republic doing wrong as of
the invasion?

David Pinkus: See my
above answer.

Mike Cooper: yes, obviously =p

Jay Shah: The New
Republic was too concerned with the Core.

Jay Shah: Recall the
Senator from Vortex?

David Pinkus: The
individual sector fleets could only guard "so much" while worrying
about the Remnant, pirates, etc. and the need to protect the Core Worlds and
the breadbaskets covered much space.

Jay Shah: The Republic
was only concerned with the rich worlds that lined the pockets of the Senate.

David Pinkus: Then
you have the militias who had no reason to send ships to face a threat of
unknown size, disposition and... er... threat.

Jay Shah: Recall that
the Jedi who acted against smugglers were condemned by the highest Senators in
the Republic--why? Because the Senate got kickbacks from them.

Jay Shah: So--what's
worse?

David Pinkus: If the
Empire were in charge and not dealing with a Rebellion, sending 1% of the SD
fleet would have solved the problem (using the 25,000 number).

Jay Shah: Oppression
of a few worlds, or purposeful neglect and a lack of concern for those who
joined the Republic for protection? This I pose to you.

Jay Shah: Yes, and the
25,000 percent number is rather low.

Jay Shah: Given that
we know that each sector fleet had 24 ISDs, and there were tens of thousands of
sectors...

Marah Wojcik: It's
only a question that arises in retrospect, though. They had no idea the Vong
were coming. Of course we know they were there for a long while...but there was
no large-scale invasion until the NJO

David Pinkus: Asa
matter of fairness, the Republic wasn't ENTIRELY concerned with the "rich
worlds" lining their pockets. There was some pragmatism that said that if
worlds seceded they'd lose power, money and prestige.

Jay Shah: It's not,
though, Marah.

Marah Wojcik: You
can't just run around saying "Oh let's live oppressed in case an alien
civiliation invades tomrrow"

Jay Shah: It's proof
of concept.

Mike Cooper: i still don't grant the "few"
premise, jay

Jay Shah: The Republic
has proven it is not interested in fairness--when push came to shove, the
Republic FAILED.

Jay Shah: That it
works when everything is fine and dandy is irrelevant--the true test of
anything is in times of chaos.

Jay Shah: I'm still digging
for a quote, Cooper.

Mike Cooper: marah - tell that to bu...um, nevermind

Jay Shah: All I can
find is that the Alliance has no allies in the Core, which we know.

David Pinkus: Right,
but remember that WE'RE operating with hindsight too. We all *believe* that the
Empire would have responded better, but we don't know for sure.

Jay Shah: And that the
Rebellion got most of its support from rich nobles.

Jay Shah: Which tells
us what?

David Pinkus: Is it
possible that the Old Republic could have responded more effectively with
20,000 Jedi still around?

Jay Shah: Well, gee,
that these rich nobles want to get their ancestral power back.

Jay Shah: No.

Marah Wojcik: That's
true, too, about the Jedi

Jay Shah: I'd like to see
20,000 Jedi attack a 8km long Vong ship.

David Pinkus: I'd say
yes. But I'd rather be sure with 25,000 Star Destroyers.

Jay Shah: They would
get blown out of the sky.

Jay Shah: That, or
someone would pull a Revan and everyone would be in trouble.

David Pinkus: I'd
doubt it, if technology came back to the fore that it was at the time of
TPM/AOTC

David Pinkus: Jedi
Aces are quite proficient (see: Tiin, Saesee)

Jay Shah: Yes, in tiny
fighters.

Jay Shah: I would like
to see said tiny fighters defeat a Vong armada.

David Pinkus: As I
recall, one tiny fighter took out another 8 km long Imperial ship... ;-)

Mike Cooper: someone did pull a revan. his name was
anakin

Jay Shah: After 12
MC80s blasted into ti (ref. ROTJ novel)

Jay Shah: *it

Jay Shah: and it's
17.6km long, but that's neither here nor there

Jay Shah: :-P

Mike Cooper: whatever size it was, one fighter didn't
take it out. that's just saying the last torpedo that finally destroys a ship
"took it out"

Mike Cooper: *that's like"

Jay Shah: How so,
Cooper? It seemed to me that Kyp was more in the danger of creating dark siders
than Anakin

Jay Shah: Exactly,
Cooper.

Mike Cooper: anakin did create darksiders. kyp didn't

Jay Shah: Solo?

David Pinkus: Damn
you, JEllo! :-P

Mike Cooper: solo? wait, what are we arguing,
exactly?

Jay Shah: something to
do with the Empire and the Republics.... :-P

Marah Wojcik: I'm
lost :-P

Mike Cooper: oh, you mean did he create them solo...i
thought you meant han was a darksider =)

David Pinkus: The
fact that the Dark Side exists as a tangible element that tempts those strong
in the Force would not be changed by the system of government.

Jay Shah: no! Anakin
Solo.

Jay Shah: No, but it
means that Jedi cannot be used as an army.

David Pinkus: Though
it seemed to be more prevalent under the Empire than the Republic in the later
years.

Jay Shah: Especially
Jedi who use tactics such as sticking failures into labor camps.

Mike Cooper: anakin skywalker. you know, the one who
turned to the dark side

Jay Shah: And Jedi
that steal babies from their parents.

David Pinkus: Jedi
didn't "steal" babies.

Mike Cooper: they "borrow" them

Jay Shah: Refer to the
Baby Ludi incident, HoloNetNews

David Pinkus: And the
Corps weren't"abor camps"

David Pinkus: That
was ONE incident where the parents were believed dead.

Marah Wojcik: The
news loves to dramatize things anyway

Jay Shah: it was
clearly a belief among Republic citizens, at the time, that the Jedi were not
to be loved

Jay Shah: Even through
history, they were looked upon as high and mighty

David Pinkus: And
defenders of the Republic.

Jay Shah: They were,
after all, too important to save Naboo.

Mike Cooper: the barabels seemed to like them okay

Jay Shah: They did,
yes.

Mike Cooper: the republic wouldn't let them save
naboo

Jay Shah: of course
not, because corrupt businessmen controlled it.

Jay Shah: :-)

Jay Shah: oh, and the
Jedi were the Chancellor's private troops....

Mike Cooper: no, your boss controlled it

David Pinkus: They weren't
too important. The Chancellor dispatched them to end the blockade!

Jay Shah: That
reminded me that Emperor's Hand mention, earlier.

David Pinkus: No,
they had the authority to decline missions.

Jay Shah: The Republic
was corrupt long before Palpatine was even born.

Jay Shah: Did they?
When?

David Pinkus: Because
we don't see it doesn't mean it's not there.

Jay Shah: Nor does it
justify that it was.

David Pinkus: Because
we're only seeing through a lens of history (e.g. the books are showing us
stuff, as are the movies)

Jay Shah: You can't
say "A exists because nothing says it doesn't."

Marah Wojcik: I
don't think the Republic could order them around

Jay Shah: Because I
could say that Barney the purple dinosaur was a Grand Moff, because nothing
says he wasn't. :-)

David Pinkus: That's
true, you could.

Jay Shah: And he was
the evil mastermind pulling Palpatine's strings.

Mike Cooper: if the jedi did accept every assignment
they got, it's only because the republic knew better than to give them BS
assignments

Jay Shah: Chancellor.

Jay Shah: The Senate
had nothing to do with it.

Mike Cooper: if valorum told qui-gon to go kill some
political opponent, he wouldn't have done it

Jay Shah: Which is
another sign of a bad system: where the parts of the government don't trust
each other.

David Pinkus: I
packed all my books... :-(

David Pinkus: [cries]

Jay Shah: That's okay,
I don't have mine either.

Marah Wojcik: it's
not a lack of trust, just a desire for autonomy. The Jedi probably don't like
to be ordered around. Who would?

David Pinkus: Mara

David Pinkus:
[rimshot]

Jay Shah: Autonomy?

Jay Shah: So then the
Chancellor can be autonomous from the constitutional rule of the Senate?

Jay Shah: Tsk tsk...
that is bad.

Marah Wojcik: No, because
that's the government. The Jedi are Jedi. Two different things.

Mike Cooper: autonomy for the jedi

David Pinkus: NO, the
Chancellor can't be autonomous from the Senate.

Mike Cooper: they went to naboo as a personal favor
to valorum

Jay Shah:Jay Shah: Which is another sign of a bad system:
where the parts of the government don't trust each other.

David Pinkus: The
Jedi are entrusted with enforcing the laws of the Republic.

Jay Shah: And
enforcing them selectively.

Jay Shah: After all,
the Guilds could do what they wanted.

Mike Cooper: okay, let's leave it here

Jay Shah: only until
someone from NABOO was in charge was the Trade Federation dealt with

Jay Shah: okay

Mike Cooper: david has better things to do...

Jay Shah: There is nothing
better than defending the honor of the Empire.[/loyalist] :-P

David Pinkus: My
GirlfriendImplant(TM) went off and the shocks are painful.

Mike Cooper: ::points to the invisible camera:: say
goodbye to the kids at home!

Marah Wojcik: It's
been fun!

David Pinkus: This...
is CNN (Core News Network)

Mike Cooper: glad you all could make it

Jay Shah: Brought to
you by: Imperial Center Hourly

Jay Shah: Remember
kiddos, serve your Emperor! ;-)

Jay Shah: *bows and
shakes hands*

Mike Cooper: i can't believe the Core television
station got Vader to do their spots...

Jay Shah: Good job,
guys...

David Pinkus: Good
debating with y'all.

Jay Shah: They offered
him a new podracer :-P

Jay Shah: Vader:
Yipee!

Whew. Having been present at both random chats and the strictest
chats possible, I?d say this one achieved a perfect balance between the two.
Here?s hoping it wasn?t a freak occurrence. Much-belated thanks go out to my
three debaters; coming up in the third and final of our interim series, things
get verbose, historical, and just a little rowdy when future staff member Paul
?Thrawn McEwok? Urquhart makes his EU Roundtable debut.