Asher
if we remove flags for this or that do we not also remove slave history books with photos of flags confederate from all American libraries as well. Would not those history books also be offensive-should schools not teach... is that not offensive? I don't understand how that would work.
C.

It's important, Charlotte, that history books tell the truth and admit what we did and how we justified it from the bible! Admission is part of healing. No one would be insulted if we own the past, as opposed to appearing to be simply boasting about it!

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hmmm I just can't wrap my head around this sudden hysterics of a crazy guy who murdered human beings and a flag… I just do not connect the 2…flags are not racist some people are. A matter of judgements. Just my opinion.

hmmm I just can't wrap my head around this sudden hysterics of a crazy guy who murdered human beings and a flag… I just do not connect the 2…flags are not racist some people are. A matter of judgements. Just my opinion.

Charlotte-

Charlotte,

Do you contest the claim by blacks that, to them, the flag is an affront?

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So this is not just a black thing and a white thing. We're all guilty. blacks, Catholics, Protestants, Arabs and Jews. Everybody, directly or indirectly benefitted from the slavery of the African tribes that were extracted criminally from their homelands.
Asher

A couple of points to do with the quote. "We're all guilty"? No we're not. This form of simplistic stereotyping (whether based on racial, religious, or whatever grounds) is historically and philosophically ridiculous. Historically ridiculous because (for example) my ancestors, at the time in question, were peasant farmers or workers employed by England's industrial revolution. Whatever benefits (if any) that occurred to them indirectly because of slavery in the southern US were more than counterbalanced by the misery of working in those 'dark Satanic mills'. The same, I'm sure, applied to the vast majority of world's working people at the time. They became "industrial slaves" with little more freedom of choice than those working on plantations an ocean away. To imply that they were 'guilty' insults their memory.

Philosophically ridiculous because the descendants, even of those directly involved in slavery (e.g., business people or drunks shanghaied onto slaving ships), have no responsibility for the actions of their ancestors. Unless you subscribe to the no less ridiculous proposition that the sins of ancestors should carry forward to succeeding generations, which I'm sure you do not.

The obverse of stereotyping members of an 'out-group' by blaming all members of an 'in-group' for whatever misfortunes happened to the former is just another form of simplistic stereotyping that inhibits better understanding of ways to rectify lasting effects of those misfortunes. Symbolic gestures like banning a flag are all very well, but my guess is that they might mean more after successful rectification of those problems (e.g., the Canadian government apologized, made financial restitution, and established community consultations about Residential Schooling effects on aboriginals after the abolition of those schools). The USA has done well with respect to racial integration during the past few decades but issues clearly remain (e.g., recent examples of apparent antagonism of white cops to black kids). Banning a flag seems a cheap, easy, and rather meaningless way to divert attention from having to confront a problem.

African Americans have a right to their opinion on which is or is not offensive to them. I don't see how that irradiates racism… The American flag was flying during the civil war, right? So were the other flags of North and South. So do we also take down the American flag as well. The civil war was fought under the American flag…That is hypocrisy … I am in no way for slavery on any race don't misunderstand me.

A couple of points to do with the quote. "We're all guilty"? No we're not. This form of simplistic stereotyping (whether based on racial, religious, or whatever grounds) is historically and philosophically ridiculous. m sure you do not.

The obverse of stereotyping members of an 'out-group' by blaming all members of an 'in-group' for whatever misfortunes happened to the former is just another form of simplistic stereotyping that inhibits better understanding of ways to rectify lasting effects of those misfortunes. Symbolic gestures like banning a flag are all very well, but my guess is that they might mean more after successful rectification of those problems (e.g., the Canadian government apologized, made financial restitution, and established community consultations about Residential Schooling effects on aboriginals after the abolition of those schools). The USA has done well with respect to racial integration during the past few decades but issues clearly remain (e.g., recent examples of apparent antagonism of white cops to black kids).

Valid, of course, and eloquently argued, if you take my statement literally and one would want to pursue damages! I meant that, sections of all peoples have been involved. For example Liverpool's standard of living was aided by the wealth it brought in from world trade which was buttressed at the time by cheap slave labor in Portuguese, Dutch and British colonies. So indirectly distant populations benefited. Of course, as you clearly protest and remind us, being in a factory in the Midlands, was tantamount to slavery too!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael_Stones

Banning a flag seems a cheap, easy, and rather meaningless way to divert attention from having to confront a problem.

It's of course easy to defend the pride in the flag by many Southerners. After all, young men fought valiantly under it in what many thought was the defense of their homes. It's also obvious that the flag in itself, is just a piece of cloth. These facts do not negate the pain Blacks claim they feel in seeing this flying, at their expense, on public buildings. This is what has to be addressed as a healing step. Yes, it appears superficial, but so is a dress or a fine suit, but these are powerful ways of presenting and packaging notions of status, taste and class.

Banning the Confederate a battle flag is not advocated! People can wave that. Free speech is still a basic right. It's just that blacks shouldn't have to bear and subsidize State symbols that they find humiliating. That's indecent.

But removing some flags from the state capitals is only a gracious first step. It doesn't, of course address the continuation of racial prejudice, intolerance and hatred. That requires our best minds to find solutions and make a start in our lifetime. We need to consider expanding and enhancing the focus of such programs in serious, well-finded graduate school research and scholarship, just as we explore other aspects of human society.

We have the brains to solve a lot of scientific, engineering and even social challenges like this. The start is to be open about the history, apologize, don't block health care and voter registration and remove superficial daily insults..................... and then start to explore, debate and figure out a consensus on how to proceed.

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African Americans have a right to their opinion on which is or is not offensive to them. I don't see how that irradiates racism… The American flag was flying during the civil war, right? So were the other flags of North and South. So do we also take down the American flag as well. The civil war was fought under the American flag…That is hypocrisy … I am in no way for slavery on any race don't misunderstand me.

Charlotte,

I'm perplexed! Where did anyone claim that removing this square battle flag from a public building (that taxes from blacks help fund), could ever iradicate racism?

Who suggested that was even remotely possible?

Have you seen it somewhere?

If I ever implied that, my apologies. This idea of taking down that particular state-sponsored flag is just a timely gesture of humility and respect.

We are ONLY referring to "the gauntlet of insult", that blacks say they feel, in seeing that symbol on their public buildings!

To actually solve the problem,we need public debate ..........and also brains of folks like Michael Stones and a lot of exchange of ideas and testing of solutions.

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sorry for the delay power outage . If the claim is a memory of slavery over 150 years then how after a flag is taken down does that in any way erase that memory. I would say both sides had flags indicating North and South during all the battles fought. Yes there was slavery yes there was Hitler yes there was many things atrocious to humanity- Many lives were taken in the civil war. I just cringe at the idea that if we start abolishing our history/flags what else will come of this what other claim will come of this action. For me the massacre at this church wasn't because of the history of slavery/a confederate flag it was a massacre of A RACIST. It will take a long time before the human ego will understand "we are all humans"
not just African Americans or Native American Indians or any other race of peoples. I absolutely abhor
what this has done however I do hope that African Americans can actually heal if taking down a flag does that for them.
C.

If the claim is a memory of slavery over 150 years then how after a flag is taken down does that in any way erase that memory.

What has that go to do with the debate, Charlotte?

There is no reference to a claim of the memory of slavery" going away magically by removing a square piece of cloth with a pattern on it.

It's nothing to do with the Stars and Stripes and some "moral equivalence", as only the Confederate Battle Flag is insulting to Blacks!

It's not like primary schools were all kids get sports trophies or all kids get detention. This is not affirmative action blaming of all symbols or power. It's solely about the one flag that offends blacks, the confederate flag.

We can separately debate the US flag, I promise.

I try my best to convey simple meaning to you and it appears that my command of language is insufficient or you are just unwilling to entertain that the flag flying at their expense is offensive to many blacks.

Taking down the flag won't heal African americans. Not a chance, but it does decrease the resentment and opens a path for debate and dialog and a search for progress in race relations. More important than this decent gesture would be the following measures:

1. cease using all sorts of identification qualification schemes for slowing down voter registration of poorly situated blacks

2. cease blocking medicare expansion for large sections of the southern population

3. publicly apologize for the enslavement of the ancestors of African Americans

4. be decent in treatment of blacks and other minorities - at the pols and by the police and the history that's taught in our schools .

5. Remove the requirement for poor folk arrested on some suspicion to have to either admit guilt or come up with a bail amount that they cannot possibly afford. 30% of inmates in jails in New York are just the poor who have no money for bail. Being in jail means the poor lose their temporary housing and then cannot ever get another job if the do accept a plea agreement.

This and more. I am not a social scientist, a sociologist, economist or a jurist, just a scientist and physician who has a lifetime of experience. I know we have the aptitude, good will and intelligence to begin to tackle this huge problem. Don't worry, all your flags are safe. All the history is safe, No one is going to erase the heroism of men who fought for their homes. None of that!

It's about what to do now and in the future. I'm sure that there are many more simple changes that can help make the poor and especially blacks feel less oppressed and disadvantaged.

On Moral Equivalence

There is none! Discussion of the losses on both sides is a common excuse after massacres. This is what Ottomans claimed after being criticized for the massacre of over 1 million Armenians when the lights went out in Turkey during World War I, and the people were herded off, property stolen, girls raped, stolen for extra wives, sold as slaves/or whores to the Arabs and Circassians and the rest burnt alive, drowned by collapsing rafts in the Euphrates or led to starve a slow death in the burning deserts of Syria. Go to any Turkish website on the Armenian Genocide and you will have the same circular logic used in defending the history of the South, how both sides suffer
.
...and abolishing flags? no one is doing that!

Quote:

Originally Posted by charlotte thompson

I would say both sides had flags indicating North and South during all the battles fought. Yes there was slavery yes there was Hitler yes there was many things atrocious to humanity- Many lives were taken in the civil war. I just cringe at the idea that if we start abolishing our history/flags what else will come of this what other claim will come of this action. For me the massacre at this church wasn't because of the history of slavery/a confederate flag it was a massacre of A RACIST. It will take a long time before the human ego will understand "we are all humans"
not just African Americans or Native American Indians or any other race of peoples. I absolutely abhor
what this has done however I do hope that African Americans can actually heal if taking down a flag does that for them.
C.

You bring up "red herrings" Once again, I never heard anyone say that a flag caused the 9 murders! Where on earth do you even scrape that from? It's utterly disingenuous to keep putting up straw man, when the debate is nothing to do with some, "causality" between a flag with a hateful symbol and this specific set of murders.

"Many lives were taken in the civil war?" So what does that have to do with a debate on the insult posed by a small square Confederate Battle Flag, permanently padlocked above a state structure and clearly insulting to most blacks?

You could, in like manner, assert that the "production of apples in those war years was equally high in both North and South!". It equally has no bearing on whether or not the blacks are telling the truth when they claim that the sight of the Confederate Battle Flag on their own State structures is utterly offensive to them!

If you had a recording from Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson where they conspired to invent a claimed insult by the flag to leverage some donation for their respective organizations, then yes, that would be highly relevant. Short of that, the facts speak for themselves. Blacks are offended each and every day by the continued presence of obvious state sponsored brandishing of a Flag which says, "He, everyone, and you black folk, we're deeply proud of what this flag represents and represented and what we fought for and there's nothing you blacks can do about it, so get used to your position, as nothing is going to change!"

You a kind a and decent person I'm proud to know and befriend, However, you're sorely mistaken in trying to defend the indefensible! The continued flying of the Confederate Battle Flag on public buildings, at public expense is beyond it's allotted time. What was a natural memorial has now developed an indecent patina. Attempting to delay the inevitable by conflating this issue with a noble purpose to preserve "history" doesn't work!

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I did say …. I do hope that African Americans can actually heal if taking down a flag does that for them.
I however disagree that taking down the Confederate Battle Flag IMHO will do little but cause more anguish on both sides of this debate,,,,which again it has done. I do not disagree with African Americans being affronted with the flag not at all. I look at this flag as a symbol of history, sad yes horrible yes. As it is…still causing anguish .

I did say …. I do hope that African Americans can actually heal if taking down a flag does that for them.
I however disagree that taking down the Confederate Battle Flag IMHO will do little but cause more anguish on both sides of this debate,,,,which again it has done. I do not disagree with African Americans being affronted with the flag not at all. I look at this flag as a symbol of history, sad yes horrible yes. As it is…still causing anguish .

C,

Charlotte,

You have more than vindicated my belief in the ladies of the South! But this is not yet part of the healing, just an expression of our own decency.

For healing we have to start with very determined and substantial moves as in my post # 71 above and replace jail with education that prevents that useless expenditure of lives and our treasure in never ending incarcerations!

Ultimately, education is the key. I believe it's Norway where the very best of the best college students are recruited to be teachers. That's what we need to do. We have endless opportunities, just need to get folk on that path.

If anyone got to believe that tearing down the Confederate flag is meant to disrespect the men who fought valiantly for their homes, it is not. If anyone thought that this is part of a solution, it is not. It's just an expression of what good people do to their neighbors - the right thing by them in this generation of hope and change!

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Wow, since we were talking about Gone With The Wind this guy wants to put the film in a museum.
Iran is getting closer to getting a nuke but we are worried about this and the General Lee. We are going BSC !
I am not talking about our SC Confederate battle flag which should be lowered.
Donhttp://nypost.com/2015/06/24/gone-wi...federate-flag/

This is what I had hoped for from the start, artwork that calls us to action! Tell us about the provenance of the pictures. Where are these kids from, where they in jail? Probably not .......who's picture was it?

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Asher
All I know was a slave photo of these gorgeous children 1890 I think.. I did the overlay to signify slavery also to call attention to the fact…That children of generations to come must be educated in the face of ignorance and that all races must be tolerated.

"On Wednesday, Alabama Gov. Robert J. Bentley, a Republican, became the first Southern governor to use his executive power to remove four Confederate banners from a monument on the Capitol grounds. It was the latest step in the search for a safe spot between heritage and racism.

"It has become a distraction all over the country right now," Bentley told reporters. The Confederate battle flag, which in modern times became a revered symbol to many in the South, "is offensive to some people because, unfortunately, it's like the swastika," he said. "Some people have adopted that as part of their hate-filled groups."

Activists call to remove confederate flag inside NY State Capitol Building
Activists call to remove confederate flag inside NY State Capitol Building
This is a far cry from the time — just last week — when officials vigorously defended Confederate symbols as honoring what some saw as a glorious rebel past. But when a gunman — whom authorities identify as a young white supremacist who glorified the Confederacy — opened fire in a historic black church in Charleston, S.C., killing nine African Americans who were studying the Bible, that Southern worldview radically shifted.

In recent days, politicians in Virginia, South Carolina, Mississippi and Tennessee have questioned Confederate symbols including flags and statues, while top retailers such as Wal-Mart and EBay have said they will no longer sell Confederate flags, belt buckles, clothing and the like. Even the quintessential Southern sport of stock-car racing announced it was walking away from Confederate symbols.

"This is symbolism," said James Forman Jr., a professor at Yale Law School who has written about race and the Confederate flag. "And symbolism matters.""

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It's likely similar to trivializing Rwanda, Darfur, Armenian or Auchwitz mass exterminations. It's unbecoming to use these evil disasters as entertainment!

Having said that, is there any place for educational games, such as quizz contests where knowledge and comprehension of these events can be turned into lessons in history.

We are one species with seemingly different faces, but actually, there's only one human race. The facial differences are just local adaptions and of no functional importance, except for enjoyment of exotic looks! That's what games should be about - respect and enjoyment of how we are sculpted differently, every one of us!

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i have been informally asking blacks I meet in Los Angeles what they think of the "Confederate Flag" and the debate on it. Uniformly, those I've met find the flag an offense and appreciate that, even in a symbolic way, racism is being looked at today as an issue of importance. No one said it was a diversion.

We cannot however, demonize the Southerners as racist. They are just as racist as everyone else, just it shows more. The truth is that race is just a mark of a family tree, like eye color and height or tendency to get obese! Race is an archaic and useless categorization. If white man needs a blood transfusion to save his life, they don't look for "white race-blood", LOL, just the comparable blood group!

The only possible relevant difference between Africans and other populations, is that Neanderthals did not migrate back to Africa to be able to interbreed with the locals! Pretty amusing! But all lineages bred with archaic forms of the human evolutionary tree and all of us, black, white, asian and hispanic have the same genetic ancestors in one black genetic "Adam" Y chromosome ancestor and one genetic Cytoplasmic, Mitochondrial "Eve" ancestor.

Human beings, unlike almost all other mammals surviving on this planet, have the richest diversity of genes. The more interbreeding of diverse populations, the greater the future survivability of man in a changing planet earth environment. Facial features and skin color and geographic origin can serve as indirect, "markers" or indicators for alternate versions of genes that enrich our offspring.

Unfortunately, our ape cousins, lions, tigers, elephants, cattle, deer and other animals have very little genetic diversity to ensure survival. Our extraordinary over-exploitation of the planet has doomed much of the animal life we enjoy as the animals have diminished habitat and lack the gene variability to withstand virulent diseases that afflict them every so often.

"Jurassic park" reconstructive science, may yet be needed just to preserve endangered species as there lack of diversity otherwise spells doom for most all species .................except a cockroach!

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This was a lonely, isolated, mentally disturbed kid from a broken home who found acceptance in extremism. Despite the horrific crime one feels he is as much a victim as the people he shot. Will removing the flag stop another isolated, damaged kid following his path? Or is it an easy path to ease the collective guilt?