They explored some of the options and eventually rejected additional opportunities put forward but they definitely didn't tell Cal how any of it went or of their ultimate intentions to enroll at CCSF.

really immature... as they say never burn bridges....

but here were two guys who thought being at Cal was a really good thing, wanted to be student athletes, and end up alums-you know, kind of like most of us.

This false narrative has to stop. They had their scholarships. They could have remained at Cal as students for 4 years and gotten their education and become Cal alums.

If they kept their scholarships, we would not have them now to give, correct? In which case, their leaving for CCSF so we have the scholarships for this recruiting cycle is GREAT for the program. Complaining that they could have given them back a month ago seems really petty, all things considered.

So since no announcement was made, did someone here just happen to checknthe ccst roster. Maybe Jones should call Labaugh to be sure this is definite and find out what really happened. Why would they take scholarship money here and enroll in Cal classes if they knew they were goingbto ccsf?

They explored some of the options and eventually rejected additional opportunities put forward but they definitely didn't tell Cal how any of it went or of their ultimate intentions to enroll at CCSF.

really immature... as they say never burn bridges....

but here were two guys who thought being at Cal was a really good thing, wanted to be student athletes, and end up alums-you know, kind of like most of us.

This false narrative has to stop. They had their scholarships. They could have remained at Cal as students for 4 years and gotten their education and become Cal alums.

I'll add that they could have stayed at Cal and taken injury retirements, etc. to keep their schollies. The only option denied them was to be on the Basketball team at Cal - and they had no right/entitlement to that for 4 years. They knew that coming in.

I understand that presented a tough choice (stay at Cal v. pursue basketball career), but the bottom line is that they went about making that decision in the worst way possible - both for themselves (particularly Winston) and for Cal. Burning bridges is usually not a good thing and tends to reflect poorly on the arsonist.

They explored some of the options and eventually rejected additional opportunities put forward but they definitely didn't tell Cal how any of it went or of their ultimate intentions to enroll at CCSF.

really immature... as they say never burn bridges....

but here were two guys who thought being at Cal was a really good thing, wanted to be student athletes, and end up alums-you know, kind of like most of us.

This false narrative has to stop. They had their scholarships. They could have remained at Cal as students for 4 years and gotten their education and become Cal alums.

I'll add that they could have stayed at Cal and taken injury retirements, etc. to keep their schollies. The only option denied them was to be on the Basketball team at Cal - and they had no right/entitlement to that for 4 years. They knew that coming in.

I understand that presented a tough choice (stay at Cal v. pursue basketball career), but the bottom line is that they went about making that decision in the worst way possible - both for themselves (particularly Winston) and for Cal. Burning bridges is usually not a good thing and tends to reflect poorly on the arsonist.

Who was the last player to get an injury retirement that wasn't injured? Are you saying WJ offered it to them?

Who was the last player to get an injury retirement that wasn't injured? Are you saying WJ offered it to them?

BTW, WJ was the arsonist in this series of events.

The burning bridges cliche is about Malice, which I doubt. But I have to agree with this, in that WJ was the cause. The kids may have reacted in a detrimental way, but it was WJ that signed them and WJ that dismissed them. As always, there is a lot of nuance, but I take more issue in the original signing, then the dismissal. From the first glance, it was obvious that Winston was not at P12 caliber. However, he had skills and I'm OK with a stretch pull once in a while (if the rest of the talent allowed him time to develop, he possibly could have been a back up his Junior year - similar in level to Chauca IMHO*). As for McCullough, simply no excuse. I'm OK with the decision to dismiss both of them, but it was not handled well in many facets. Again, that is WJ, but I chalk it up to inexperience, not malice.

*Personally, in both cases, I would not have spent a scholarship on a guard who is also a project. A big-man, OK. But in both cases, I'm confident they could have found a local PWO to grow into a backup guard role.

Who was the last player to get an injury retirement that wasn't injured? Are you saying WJ offered it to them?

BTW, WJ was the arsonist in this series of events.

The burning bridges cliche is about Malice, which I doubt. But I have to agree with this, in that WJ was the cause. The kids may have reacted in a detrimental way, but it was WJ that signed them and WJ that dismissed them. As always, there is a lot of nuance, but I take more issue in the original signing, then the dismissal. From the first glance, it was obvious that Winston was not at P12 caliber. However, he had skills and I'm OK with a stretch pull once in a while (if the rest of the talent allowed him time to develop, he possibly could have been a back up his Junior year - similar in level to Chauca IMHO*). As for McCullough, simply no excuse. I'm OK with the decision to dismiss both of them, but it was not handled well in many facets. Again, that is WJ, but I chalk it up to inexperience, not malice.

*Personally, in both cases, I would not have spent a scholarship on a guard who is also a project. A big-man, OK. But in both cases, I'm confident they could have found a local PWO to grow into a backup guard role.

Malice is a pretty strong threshold for burning bridges cliches. But yeah, if WJ suddenly kicked two players off the team thinking it would instantly make room for two better players that were ready to commit, then there was some malice - in the loosest sense of the word.- in that he deliberately disregarded their well beings.

Who was the last player to get an injury retirement that wasn't injured? Are you saying WJ offered it to them?

BTW, WJ was the arsonist in this series of events.

The burning bridges cliche is about Malice, which I doubt. But I have to agree with this, in that WJ was the cause. The kids may have reacted in a detrimental way, but it was WJ that signed them and WJ that dismissed them. As always, there is a lot of nuance, but I take more issue in the original signing, then the dismissal. From the first glance, it was obvious that Winston was not at P12 caliber. However, he had skills and I'm OK with a stretch pull once in a while (if the rest of the talent allowed him time to develop, he possibly could have been a back up his Junior year - similar in level to Chauca IMHO*). As for McCullough, simply no excuse. I'm OK with the decision to dismiss both of them, but it was not handled well in many facets. Again, that is WJ, but I chalk it up to inexperience, not malice.

*Personally, in both cases, I would not have spent a scholarship on a guard who is also a project. A big-man, OK. But in both cases, I'm confident they could have found a local PWO to grow into a backup guard role.

They didn't need to be injury retirements to keep their scholarships but they had no injuries of note for the team to claim an injury retirement to get the schollies back if they decided to remain.

Exactly. If the kids were being "malicious" they would have stayed at Cal on scholarship and gotten degrees, or at least not have left until they had another scholarship offer. We would not be able to use those scholarships during that time. I am sure that leaving for CCSF was not their first choice. I am sure they were hoping for scholarship offers at a D1 or D2 school. Leaving for CCSF and giving back the scholarships was a great outcome for the program. Finding out about it in August is about as good as we could expect. Being upset they didn't inform Jones directly? That just seems very petty. They did Jones a huge favor, but I don't think they "owed" him anything.

They didn't need to be injury retirements to keep their scholarships but they had no injuries of note for the team to claim an injury retirement to get the schollies back if they decided to remain.

Exactly. If the kids were being "malicious" they would have stayed at Cal on scholarship and gotten degrees, or at least not have left until they had another scholarship offer. We would not be able to use those scholarships during that time. I am sure that leaving for CCSF was not their first choice. I am sure they were hoping for scholarship offers at a D1 or D2 school. Leaving for CCSF and giving back the scholarships was a great outcome for the program. Finding out about it in August is about as good as we could expect. Being upset they didn't inform Jones directly? That just seems very petty. They did Jones a huge favor, but I don't think they "owed" him anything.

I don't really care about this because I don't think they owed us any favors, but I think you are way off here.

I'm also sure that CCSF was not their first choice. But what is clear from their decision to go to CCSF is that BASKETBALL was their first choice. Because going to a JC was always going to be something that was available. Clearly there was never any intent to stay for the education and get their degree. If there was, having no good basketball options, they would have hung up the sneakers and grabbed the best scholarship deal they are ever going to get by staying at Cal. I think it is obvious they knew as soon as Wyking told them they would not be on the team that they were going to leave at the end of the semester. They knew Cal wanted to use the scholarships this Fall. They knew Cal couldn't use the scholarships for this Fall if they did not inform Cal of their decision. It made zero difference to them if they told Cal in the Spring or just didn't show up in August. Having no scholarship offer to take, they didn't need to make their decision known. So they didn't. I have a hard time believing that the decision not to tell us was not payback.

Your "if they were being malicious" scenarios make no sense because to do either, they would have to hurt themselves. They want to play basketball. If they stay at Cal for the degree, they can't play basketball. Not leaving until they get another scholarship offer would make no sense. Sitting at Cal isn't getting them an offer. To get an offer they need to play somewhere to demonstrate they are worth it. Hence, they need to go to a JC to play. So yes, they could have been more malicious by staying at Cal longer, but they pretty much would have ended their basketball careers by doing so.

By not telling Cal they would not be here in the Fall, they hurt Cal as much as they could without badly hurting themselves. Hurting Cal any more would have come at great cost to them. (I know you and I think a Cal degree is a great consolation prize, but if they agreed, they wouldn't be at CCSF now) C'mon man. They didn't tell us because they knew it would hurt us. As I said, I get it. We dumped them. When your significant other dumps you, you don't help her move her stuff to her new boyfriend's place. But let's not pretend that not telling us had anything to do with anything other than making sure we couldn't use the scholarships this year.

People who feared that they were going to stay here another three years, using their athletic scholarship but not being on the roster... that was just HIGHLY UNLIKELY to ever happen.

First, as mentioned, student-athletes in this situation almost always opt to go somewhere they can play. We're thinking, "Why would they give up a chance to get an all-expenses-paid Cal degree?!?" But that's not what they're thinking, even AM, who hasn't shown enough to lead anyone to believe he will get another basketball scholarship.

Second, it must be very uncomfortable for someone to stay here under those circumstances. I am NOT suggesting that anyone on the staff did anything to MAKE them uncomfortable. I doubt they ever woke up one morning with horses' heads in their beds or anything, but they have peer groups; maybe they even read message boards. Use your imagination: It would be very uncomfortable. And who wants to spend 3/4 of their college undergrad years feeling like that?

But let's not pretend that not telling us had anything to do with anything other than making sure we couldn't use the scholarships this year.

The only options left to us at that point would have been to repeat the same mistakes that ended up with Winston and McCullough getting scholarships in the first place. We haven't missed out on anything waiting for them to find a new home. Those spots were always going to be used for the 2019 class. And recruiting is going very badly for that class now that Walker has run out of guys he coached and Grace has not been able to land anyone yet.

They didn't tell us because they knew it would hurt us. As I said, I get it. We dumped them. When your significant other dumps you, you don't help her move her stuff to her new boyfriend's place. But let's not pretend that not telling us had anything to do with anything other than making sure we couldn't use the scholarships this year.

That's it. If your GF dumps you, you might put her clothes and other stuff in bags outside the front door, you wouldn't do anything more than that. IIRC, Wyking & Co. dumped these guys -and- essentially put their stuff in bags outside the door.

Like any relationship, when you enter into it, you know there is always the potential of a messy breakup. This was a messy breakup.

They didn't tell us because they knew it would hurt us. As I said, I get it. We dumped them. When your significant other dumps you, you don't help her move her stuff to her new boyfriend's place. But let's not pretend that not telling us had anything to do with anything other than making sure we couldn't use the scholarships this year.

That's it. If your GF dumps you, you might put her clothes and other stuff in bags outside the front door, you wouldn't do anything more than that. IIRC, Wyking & Co. dumped these guys -and- essentially put their stuff in bags outside the door.

Like any relationship, when you enter into it, you know there is always the potential of a messy breakup. This was a messy breakup.

This will end up in the dustbin of history as a non-story, except for a few hundred of us who find it interesting. It's basically over now, and it never got much play in the media because, as Moraga keeps reminding us, it happens fairly often, all over.

I will admit to finding it rather fascinating, due to the different possibilities, the unknown inside facts, the subtle dynamics and the way it could affect the future of our basketball program, which hangs in the balance.

But let's not pretend that not telling us had anything to do with anything other than making sure we couldn't use the scholarships this year.

The only options left to us at that point would have been to repeat the same mistakes that ended up with Winston and McCullough getting scholarships in the first place. We haven't missed out on anything waiting for them to find a new home. Those spots were always going to be used for the 2019 class. And recruiting is going very badly for that class now that Walker has run out of guys he coached and Grace has not been able to land anyone yet.

I know you were dubious, and I have no knowledge other than what was reported here, so I'm not going to argue the point, but the coaches clearly disagreed

But let's not pretend that not telling us had anything to do with anything other than making sure we couldn't use the scholarships this year.

The only options left to us at that point would have been to repeat the same mistakes that ended up with Winston and McCullough getting scholarships in the first place. We haven't missed out on anything waiting for them to find a new home. Those spots were always going to be used for the 2019 class. And recruiting is going very badly for that class now that Walker has run out of guys he coached and Grace has not been able to land anyone yet.

I know you were dubious, and I have no knowledge other than what was reported here, so I'm not going to argue the point, but the coaches clearly disagreed

An available slot had nothing to do with the supposed grad transfer and believe me, there is nothing going on in basketball recruiting, other than that a lot of four star and up guys have eliminate us from consideration and they're trying to build relationships with some three star guys, but not offering them yet in case someone better wants to come (which is about as delusional as keeping that scholarship slot open for Jordan Brown all that time when it was patently obvious that we were the last resort school for him).

I agree with nearly all of what you're saying here but these guys are making some extremely poor decisions for themselves. Neither of these guys has a future playing basketball at all. If they want to stick it to Cal after being dumped, that's fine. That's their prerogative and I don't quibble with it. Going to CCSF isn't gonna help them develop a short or long term career in basketball. Apparently, everyone knows that but them. They just don't have the ability. But, to forgo an education at Cal (and a free education at that) is just collosally bad decision making. With proper advising, both would have sat on their scholarships and leveraged the opportunity. I'm certainly glad that their scholarships will eventually be available but it's sad that these guys have such poor judgment and self-awarenesss. Despite being dumoed; they still had ample opportunity to make something of themselves outside of basketball and they're pissing it all away for a pointless desire to play (bad) basketball.

Take the min number of fluff classes at ccsf to be eligible to play while at the same time take the min # of classes at Cal to maintain status as an ongoing student.See how a year of ball at a Jc feels, see what kind of offers come in after this season... if there are no good options, or if they are emotionally ready to hang up 'me up, they could simply return to Cal as a student and get that valued degree OR if they get a good offer for ball and degree elsewhere, they leave NorCal altogether.

Perhaps the decision to go to ccsf is simply one that extends their timeline? Otherwise, I dunno why they'd stay in NorCal at all...

Q: How many times has this happened in the history of Cal basketball? Forcing guys out without any behavior or academic reasons? Yeah, other guys have transferred because they could see the writing on the wall, but here were two guys who thought being at Cal was a really good thing, wanted to be student athletes, and end up alums-you know, kind of like most of us.

A: It's happened quite a few times, not just at Cal but at virtually every program. The difference is that players usually find it in their best interest to keep it on the downlow instead of putting the program on blast. Believe me, that didn't do them any favors when trying to find a new home, even with the program trying to endorse them.

In today's political debate arena, this is what's referred to as Moral Equivalency. "It's t's okay, because it happened elsewhere."

No. This practice is not acceptable. Conference rules require a scholarship offer be granted for 4 years.Let's not use faulty arguments to white wash the wrong.

They explored some of the options and eventually rejected additional opportunities put forward but they definitely didn't tell Cal how any of it went or of their ultimate intentions to enroll at CCSF.

really immature... as they say never burn bridges....

How many times has this happened in the history of Cal basketball? Forcing guys out without any behavior or academic reasons? Yeah, other guys have transferred because they could see the writing on the wall, but here were two guys who thought being at Cal was a really good thing, wanted to be student athletes, and end up alums-you know, kind of like most of us. We can wish that they handled it differently, but this was messed up by the coaching staff. Their actions, even if we don't like them, isn't going to change the origin of this mess. Be happy its over, but blasting the kids?

How do you know that was what they wanted ("being at Cal")? Sounds like they had that option, if they chose it.

These two guys got accepted into Cal because of basketball and got 25% of their undergraduate education (freshman year) paid for. How many seniors in high school would cherish that advantage? I know my kids would.

They also could have continued their scholarships here, if they chose to do that.

The part of all of this that the coaching staff messed up the worst was "reaching" on two guys who couldn't play at this level. After that mistake, what were they supposed to do? It's a tough world out there.

Sounds like this rather unfortunate situation is being resolved about as well as it can be, for all parties.

My point was that they chose to be at Cal by accepting the scholarship offers. They wanted a chance to see if they could continue their college education and still play basketball...I don't put them down for having that wish.

Q: How many times has this happened in the history of Cal basketball? Forcing guys out without any behavior or academic reasons? Yeah, other guys have transferred because they could see the writing on the wall, but here were two guys who thought being at Cal was a really good thing, wanted to be student athletes, and end up alums-you know, kind of like most of us.

A: It's happened quite a few times, not just at Cal but at virtually every program. The difference is that players usually find it in their best interest to keep it on the downlow instead of putting the program on blast. Believe me, that didn't do them any favors when trying to find a new home, even with the program trying to endorse them.

In today's political debate arena, this is what's referred to as Moral Equivalency. "It's t's okay, because it happened elsewhere."

No. This practice is not acceptable. Conference rules require a scholarship offer be granted for 4 years.Let's not use faulty arguments to white wash the wrong.

I'm sorry, but you can't make this moral equivalency accusation when it rides on a much more massive moral equivalency that you are accepting. Basically that the academic scholarship is irrelevant and that is okay.

It is clear from your last line that you are never going to understand that the conference rules require an academic scholarship is offered, not a spot on the basketball team. I get that you think not offering them a spot on the team is wrong, but that is not the conference rule. It is not the letter of the rule or the spirit. So stop saying it is the conference rule.

But your whole argument rests on the idea that because everybody does it, it is acceptable for universities to give away highly coveted academic spots to guys who are not academically qualified and/or don't give a damn about the academic offering. Let's not romanticize these two guys. They weren't dying to be student athletes at Cal as mb says. They wanted to play basketball at the best team that would have them. If they cared about the student portion of being a student athlete, they would not leave an education at one of the top universities in the world on the table to play basketball at CCSF where they may or may not ever get another scholarship from anyone, and it is a dead certainty they will not get a scholarship at a school remotely close to like Cal. I'm perfectly fine with their decision. They have a right to their priorities and to take advantage of the offers given them. As far as I'm concerned, if basketball is their highest priority, have at it. But let's not try to claim that anything else was their priority to make us feel better. Because at base, it is pretty much crap that two guys who place this level of priority on academics (zero to little) were given scholarships and spots because of a supposed special talent that was frankly not even special. And worse is the fact that people think it is okay to give slots to guys that do not care about academics and in fact people pretty much expect them not to. Your whole argument presupposes that lack of value of the academic opportunity. I think that is a moral equivalency that is not acceptable so I find your accusation of Moraga to be massively hypocritical.

As for going to CCSF and coming back to Cal for their degree - no. They were given the scholarship due to their perceived value to the university. That value has dropped to zero. As is appropriate, the scholarship was still there for them (rule or no rule I would be seriously upset if it had been withdrawn}. They made their choice. They chose basketball. I've known several people who had the option to play college sports (including basketball) at a lower level school, some under scholarship, who made the sacrifice to pay for their college education. (I knew one guy in my high school who had offers in basketball who told me "c'mon, I'm not going to the NBA. I'm going to give up a great education so I can play a little longer?" Those are the people that should be given spots at an academic institution. You don't get to have your cake and eat it too. Personally, I wish

I know others are very glad they left. I would have been fine if they stayed and chose academics because at least it would have said we chose guys that belonged at Cal. I'd be happier if they went on to some good school that gave them the opportunity to play basketball and get a good education (obviously wasn't available). However, their decision tells me that the decision to offer them was a disaster all around. We gave spots to two guys who neither cared about academics or added anything to the basketball side of things.

I'd be happier if they went on to some good school that gave them the opportunity to play basketball and get a good education (obviously wasn't available).

IMHO the best case is they both do well in the classroom and on the court at CCSF, then transfer as juniors to good programs. Head coach Justin Labagh is a Cal grad and by everything I've heard a good guy. I hope he can help them reach their full potential.

Take the min number of fluff classes at ccsf to be eligible to play while at the same time take the min # of classes at Cal to maintain status as an ongoing student.See how a year of ball at a Jc feels, see what kind of offers come in after this season... if there are no good options, or if they are emotionally ready to hang up 'me up, they could simply return to Cal as a student and get that valued degree OR if they get a good offer for ball and degree elsewhere, they leave NorCal altogether.

Perhaps the decision to go to ccsf is simply one that extends their timeline? Otherwise, I dunno why they'd stay in NorCal at all...

Going to CCSF extends their basketball timeline, because they can play this year instead of sitting out as they would if they transferred to a D-I school. Probably also a good move in that if they are stars at CCSF they could get other offers, and if they are not among the best players there, then it will be crystal clear what their future Division I prospects are.

Academically: AFAIK they are from out of state and would have to pay out of state tuition and fees to be enrolled at Cal. If they're taking only 1 or 2 classes, they could pay half the full-time tuition rate, but would still be paying about $13,000 per semester. That seems cost prohibitive unless their families are either so wealthy that cost doesn't matter, or so un-wealthy that they could get a very large amount of need-based financial aid.

Q: How many times has this happened in the history of Cal basketball? Forcing guys out without any behavior or academic reasons? Yeah, other guys have transferred because they could see the writing on the wall, but here were two guys who thought being at Cal was a really good thing, wanted to be student athletes, and end up alums-you know, kind of like most of us.

A: It's happened quite a few times, not just at Cal but at virtually every program. The difference is that players usually find it in their best interest to keep it on the downlow instead of putting the program on blast. Believe me, that didn't do them any favors when trying to find a new home, even with the program trying to endorse them.

No. This practice is not acceptable. Conference rules require a scholarship offer be granted for 4 years.Let's not use faulty arguments to white wash the wrong.

Seriously, how many times do we have to go over this for you? They had 4 year scholarships. The scholarships were never taken away. The only thing that was taken away was their spot on the team. That is not guaranteed by any rule. You are a Cal guy so you are too smart to not get this not especially sophisticated point.

They explored some of the options and eventually rejected additional opportunities put forward but they definitely didn't tell Cal how any of it went or of their ultimate intentions to enroll at CCSF.

really immature... as they say never burn bridges....

How many times has this happened in the history of Cal basketball? Forcing guys out without any behavior or academic reasons? Yeah, other guys have transferred because they could see the writing on the wall, but here were two guys who thought being at Cal was a really good thing, wanted to be student athletes, and end up alums-you know, kind of like most of us. We can wish that they handled it differently, but this was messed up by the coaching staff. Their actions, even if we don't like them, isn't going to change the origin of this mess. Be happy its over, but blasting the kids?

How do you know that was what they wanted ("being at Cal")? Sounds like they had that option, if they chose it.

These two guys got accepted into Cal because of basketball and got 25% of their undergraduate education (freshman year) paid for. How many seniors in high school would cherish that advantage? I know my kids would.

They also could have continued their scholarships here, if they chose to do that.

The part of all of this that the coaching staff messed up the worst was "reaching" on two guys who couldn't play at this level. After that mistake, what were they supposed to do? It's a tough world out there.

Sounds like this rather unfortunate situation is being resolved about as well as it can be, for all parties.

My point was that they chose to be at Cal by accepting the scholarship offers. They wanted a chance to see if they could continue their college education and still play basketball...I don't put them down for having that wish.

They needed a parent to sit them down and help them see the light. It's a shame they left Cal, IMO. There's no substitute for the experience or education. It seems like an incredible waste to throw that away for a year of JC hoops.

Academically: AFAIK they are from out of state and would have to pay out of state tuition and fees to be enrolled at Cal.

I think Winston is from Southern California. I think McCullough is from another state but his first year at Cal may have been sufficient to establish residency. If this is correct they'll also not have to pay out-of-state rates at CCSF.