Implications and Derivative Conclusions from Presuming Money is a Communication;

...quoting myself: "It is my position that there are multiple ways to "do money." That money in fact is a form of communication by means of symbols and contracts by which the products, commodities, and human intellectual and physical labor of humans may be exchanged. ...a set of methods of rationalizing the distribution and ownership of the things a-fore mentioned."

The very first derivative conclusion is that Hayek was absolutely correct. Not only do we need competition in money system but that competition is implied in a communication theory of money.

Gold and silver coin should be in common usage and encouraged.

The Ithaca Hour is a good example (even if not a perfected system) for the exchange of human intellectual and physical labor time.

The Michael Rivero proposal for "The Electo" has validity: (search yourself - the link is a possible auto-ban)Generalized that means an energy unit is exchanged that might be represented where the basic unit is a mega-erg unit of energy. But kilowatts of electricity could also work. In Europe engines are not measured in horsepower - they rate them in kilowatts. I have never spent much time on these concepts - and they are not first invented by Michael Rivero either.

Any finished product or commodity can be collateral for a warehouse note where the backing is whatever is in the warehouse. The demurrage principle applies here. Simply expressed the demurrage principle states that the longer you carry the warehouse note the less product you recover upon redemption. A carry cost of one percent per month is not unreasonable. This very simple principle will reduce speculation costs in commodities.

A cereal grain note could be created that consists of a basket of the common grains and beans using an algorithm where the common value is a unit where quantities of such grains as rice, wheat, rye, barley and the popular grains by measurement are the backing for the cereal grain note. Demurrage principles apply.

A public credit note might be created and used within a Richard Cook theory of public credit as a public utility - or an Ellen Brown or Bill Still inspired credit model.Richard Cook's model: [link to video.google.com] (part one of six parts)

With these computers and other tools of communication available...

THERE IS NEVER A SHORTAGE OF "MONEY" IN A COMMUNICATION THEORY OF MONEY...

Shortage is implied in Austrian economics. Austrian economics applies to gold and silver coinage and to warehouse receipts for specie money.

Griffin's Mandrake Mechanism is all over the place; easy to find.It explains how double entry bookkeeping creates the credit based upon the deposit of your promissory note.The promissory note is created and signed by you and deposited in an account and becomes the backing for the credit entry made in an account in your name.

The government under Roosevelt collectivized the credit of the people of the nation and granted a right by license to the banks to loan the people's credit to the individual "depositor." It could be argued that the proper time to file a lien [a lien against one's own promissory note] would have been in the interval of time between when the promissory note was signed and the credit entry at the bank created. The banks applied for the license and were enabled to "loan money" when the general perception was that "there is no money."

Like I wrote - there is no administrative policy in place nor is there any law that creates an off-set account in the name of the people. By the process of collectivizing the people's credit and claiming said credit in the name of 'government' all the wealth of the nation ends up in the ownership of the banker. It is a 24/7 365 days per year aggregation scheme.

Incidentally, the social credit proposals of Major Clifford Douglas (1930s) were an attempt to place purchasing power into the hands of the poor. Thus creating a "trickle up" flow that to some measure brought some equity back to the people.

It all stops being a fraud if the people are informed about how the system operates.

The federal reserve is already a mutual credit monetary system but the bookkeeping is incorrect.

The only way to run a mutual credit system is to place the banker into an agency relationship to the people where the hypothecation of the promissory note only requires a monthly administration fee. Loans are zero interest, and typical administration fees run in a range from ten bux to one hundred bux where bux symbolically represent the credit of the people.

Demurrage fees on circulating currency and upon accounts of record also apply to administrative costs. Justification: everyone benefits, everyone pays.

Austrian economics applies to specie money and to warehouse receipts based upon redemption in specie. Austrian economics does not apply to credit as money. Credit as money is based upon redemption by commodities, products, and the people's intellectual and physical labor time.

It bears the same relationship to the physical economy as a map does to the physical geography.

If you threw a topographic map of your neighborhood into a burning fireplace - would you rush to the window expecting to see the roads, hills, streams, and the whole neighborhood burst into flames?

Money is imaginary.

It exists as a special extension of language where by means of symbols and contracts humans are enabled the exchange, distribution, and ownership of real things.

A smoothly working money system is greatly preferred to daily battle and competition over basic needs.

If the so-called economy is collapsing, it is because of design flaws in the system - what is needed is a monetary system engineer. Not a politician. Not an attorney. Somebody who understands systems engineering.

The concept of debt within an engineered monetary system is a valid and useful concept; however one of the flaws of this system is it allows the debt to grow - and the growth is not simple addition - the growth is an exponential function. That flaw is the very first that must be eliminated.

The second and equally important flaw is the wrongful assignment of seigniorage. When money was a specie coin of precious or semi-precious metal or a warehouse receipt redeemable in said coin - then a high percentage of the seigniorage was vested in the coinage. As money was slowly converted over a period of decades from a *thing* into a credit entry - the presumption of law and administrative policy was that the seigniorage was the property of the administration.

This second flaw means that since all seigniorage is vested in administration then all goods, services, and commodities are owned by the administration.

These two flaws work together in a symbiotic fashion to cause the very problems identified in the "Economic Collapse Blog."

If not corrected in a peaceful fashion, these errors of design will be corrected in a decidedly non-peaceful manner.

Pumps and Dumps: The over excited tabby from Canada likes to write that civilization is a "food driven make work project."

The food producer pumps food to the consumer who "dumps" the food product...

A derivative and related conclusion to this "Pumps and Pulls" principle is that there is a necessity for agricultural subsidies in money systems.

Hyman Blumenstock and I had some long private discussions on that topic. The Blumenstock piece written about 1995 (do a search)Blumenstock served in WWII as a navigator flying planes over to Russia. His thesis was that food was one of the first items symbolized in a money token.

Prof Ashford is from New York (state?) - I have the book which is quite dull really, but persuasive. The one weakness in the book is that it totally ignores the Mondragon cooperative of the Basque region of Spain. That example is THE NUMBER ONE BEST EXAMPLE OF THE BINARY ECONOMIC PRINCIPLE.

It is my personal belief that Shakespeare served mainly as editor and proof-reader for the binary economics book and Ashford actually wrote the book. Further, it is my belief that Ashford kept the Mondragon example out of the book because of the legal structure involved. The Mondragon Cooperative acquired ownership of a commercial banking license in ~1965 and the bank management was placed in a subordinate position to the overall Cooperative management board. What this means is the prime "borrower" of the credit is the owner and beneficiary of the bank and banking profits.

Opens with a discussion of quantity theory and includes a description of how banks create credit.

Currently mainstream economists downplay quantity theory. However, it seems obvious to me that for prices to be anywhere near stable within a credit money system that the quantity of credit is of the greatest importance. In my opinion the quantity should be regulated not as a relationship to some quantity of gold setting in a vault somewhere but rather as a direct relationship to population demographics - ie so many units of credit per functioning adults aged 18 to 70.

The „rulers" actually don't matter. They are vastly outnumbered by the people like you and me. The problem is those who legitimate the "rulers" with their votes, remaining silent when the "rulers" commit evils in their names.

Most of them do not feel bad about that. Many of them even cheer and applaud to their "rulers" and they defend the crimes they commit.

Larken Rose is looking for answers to this absurd behavior and blames the concept of authority. From early childhood most people are conditioned to listen to authority when they try to figure out what is right and what is wrong instead of listening to their own hearts, their own conscience and their own moral values.

As adults they see everyone as a „good person" who blindly obeys any random authority. And in their pursuit of becoming such a „good person" they will use every means. In particular they love to oppose violently against those who stand up for true freedom.

Larken Rose sums it up in one sentence:„The problem is not those in power, the problem is right between your ears."

The speech in this video is an excerpt of the novel „The Iron Web" by Larken Rose.

About 1989 I got hold of a little booklet titled HOPE FOR THE FUTURE from Yellow Springs Ohio that was the result of a long collaborative discussion between one of the Morgan brothers and Arthur Dahlberg who was one of the head engineers at the Tennessee Valley Authority. Dahlberg had written a book titled HOW TO SAVE FREE ENTERPRISE and the book was his interpretation of the writings of Silvio Gesell. So, I made some phone calls and found the person who had the last of the single printing of that book. Bought a copy and about six months later bought another copy which I mailed to Bernard Lietaer of Germany.

When I got online in the mid 90s my learning accelerated and I was reading about money experiments in various and sundry times and places. I was reading about LETS systems and Time Dollar systems and wondering why they were so limited in success and where many actually folded after several years. I came to one conclusion - that failure rested on three lacks in their model - these lacks were:

Lack of good commercially enforceable contracts. Lack of performance bonds that would put some skin in the game for the players. Lack of a model that provided for full time professional administration.

I had read Hayek's DECENTRALIZATION OF MONEY and George Selgin's 1988 book on free banking and both held up the Scottish banking model as a "free banking" successful model. When Greco asked me to digitize an 1865 book on Scottish banking written by Somers I jumped at the chance. The book was sent to me as hundreds of images scanned and burned to a CD. By the time I got half way through that nightmare I realized that Hayek and Selgin were full of shit. And I was pissed.

Then I found Rothbard. (Knew who Rothbard was before - but not what he had written about the Scottish example.) Wasn't so! The Scottish banks had prevailed upon the Scottish government to get a law passed that they did not have to redeem their so-called "gold backed" bonds 100%. Actual backing varied from bank to bank with about 65% perhaps average. A few were down about 20%.

So, I figured if those were the best examples available - then an old carpenter with a bad back and bad knees but a mind that is still pretty clear most of the time could probably figure things out too. Hell, half the people on the Tea Party list are probably smarter than me - all you gotta do is spend some serious time examining the facts and the history and you can come up with alternate models.

Now, I ask you - have I written anywhere that you cannot use gold and silver coin. ABSOLUTELY NOT!

What I am saying is there are other ways to skin that cat. (the money system cat)

What I am saying is Griffin did a hell of a job with chapter ten THE MANDRAKE MECHANISM - because it shows how to create mutual credit money. And what have I been writing lately? That the federal reserve ALREADY IS A MUTUAL CREDIT MODEL. But it needs to be owned by the people.

And I have been writing that gold and silver and other precious metals should be formally recognized as methods of saving value. That these saved things can function quite well as performance bonds within a mutual credit model - cross collateralizing the promissory notes (this is how to do fractional backing the right way)

The hypothecation of the promissory notes a-la Griffin can continue - at ZERO INTEREST RATES. Only a monthly service charge applies. Now I can talk a billion Muslims into using the system.

And who pays for the professional administration? EVERYBODY! Via a demurrage charge on the circulating currency and upon accounts of record. Remember, the circulating currency is backed by the people and redemption is in the various commodities, products, and intellectual and physical labor of the people. The exact same backing as the federal reserve note has.

The money needs to be issued and maintained in some proportional quantity to population demographics. Just what the best optimal quantity might be remains for the future to demonstrate.

So, Larry Becraft writes: "Here is one fatal flaw. All of our medium of exchange (pure credit) is borrowed into existence, which mathematically means that our aggregate debts will always exceed the amount of “currency” in existence. An illustration of this process is posted here:

How is it proposed that all debt in this country, public and private, will ever be paid? It never can under this type of system, and debt (as well as “money” supply) will increase almost forever."

and I must ask - How would it work if the people actually owned the federal reserve system with annual or semi-annual rebates of any funds after operating costs were paid? Because it is my firm belief that a mutual credit monetary system should be owned by the users.

Did Aristotle still use those flat-earth maps? (this entire post was in response to a private correspondent who posted: "Aristotle was just another white man, but he laid out exactly why gold was the best form of money."

Get up out of your grave old boy and let me show you the round earth map.

And a human time currency backed by hours of time and the intellectual and physical labor of people is the backing.

And what about credit? Is mutual credit a stand-alone model?

Not really, but credit can be an adjunct to each and all of these four models. However it would probably take different forms and administrative policy in each of the four proposals.

There is much already written about credit in Austrian Economics. However a loan must be actual specie coinage or at the minimum 100% backed warehouse receipts. See Rothbard: 100% money.

Mutual credit is already associated with human labor time. Each of you have already experimented with labor credit. "I'll help you paint your house this weekend and you help me repair my car next weekend." Other examples from experience are easy to find. However, a formalized system of human time credit would extend to people who you do not know.

So, beyond repairing the lacks (good commercial contracts, performance bonding, and professional administration) we also need a reputation record. Think NOT CREDIT but rather CREDIBILITY. Does the guy or gal have a good reputation? Show up on time? Finish the job while displaying expertise in his or her declared field of expertise?

So, it is my personal opinion that the concepts of mutual credit apply well to human time; that professional administration is needed and EVERYBODY pays for the administration.

Put some honor back in the money-changer occupation... and hang the changers without honor.

I got into a brief exchange with a fellow over Bernard von Nothaus using the word "dollar."

He said Nothaus had no right to use the word as it was reserved to the treasury and/or the fed reserve.

I tried to explain that nobody could claim or copyright the word because it was centuries long in common usage. That in fact since dollar was associated with silver coinage, Nothaus had a better claim than the government or the fed.

So, here is Rothbard (who took his research seriously) on the origin of the word "dollar."

The "dollar" originated as the name generally applied to a one-ounce silver coin minted by a Bohemian count named Schlick, in the sixteenth century. Count Schlick lived in Joachimsthal (Joachim's Valley). His coins, which enjoyed a great reputation for uniformity and fineness, were called Joachimsthalers and finally, just thalers. The word dollar emerged from the pronunciation of thaler.

END QUOTE

So, it is just as I suspected. "Dollar" is a corruption of a Germanic word for valley - "thal."

I'll bet that thal became in English - dale.

Beyond this statement from Rothbard, I discovered that the coins were also called "tallers" and "talers"

Joachimsthal was a part of the Ore Mountains that lie on the border of Germany with Czechoslovakia.

That particular wikipedia entry is quite long and detailed with pictures and maps.

Quite interesting.

The silver coins produced there became the unit of settling contracts within the Hanseatic League that operated across national boundaries generally along the shores of the Baltic sea and westward to the North Sea.

Docket ID: FINCEN-2011-0003Agency: FINANCIAL CRIMES ENFORCEMENT NETWORKParent Agency: DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURYSummary:Although the Credit Card Accountability Responsibility and Disclosure (CARD) Act of 2009 (CARD Act), section 503, required the issuance of "regulations in final form implementing the Bank Secrecy Act, regarding the sale, issuance, redemption, or international transport of stored value, including stored value cards" by February 2010, we interpret the disjunctive "or" to allow for a phased approach. FinCEN has cleared a final rule on Prepaid Access that provides the necessary foundation for this proposed rulemaking on international transport. The CARD Act authorizes "regulations regarding international transport," of prepaid access devices, including "reporting requirements pursuant to Section 5316 of title 31, United States Code." Pursuant to this authority FinCEN is proposing to amend the regulations issued under 31 U.S.C. 5316, namely the definition of "monetary instrument" at 31 CFR 1010.100(dd) and the international transport of currency and monetary instrument reporting requirement at 31 CFR 1010.340, to include tangible prepaid access devices. The current regulations require that a form be filed reporting the international transportation, mail, or shipment of currency or other monetary instruments in an aggregate amount that exceeds $10,000. The term "monetary instrument" is defined in the BSA to include currency and a variety of bearer negotiable instruments, securities, and similar items, but does not specifically include any types of prepaid access devices. Nevertheless, FinCEN has regulatory authority to expand the definition of monetary instruments to include items deemed to be "similar materials" to coins and currency of a foreign country, travelers' checks, bearer negotiable instruments, bearer investment securities, bearer securities, and stock on which title is passed on delivery.

Quoting: da code in embryo

QUESTION: If the max cash ceiling is 10,000 dollars, but the value of the dollar in real money (coins aka specie) is not true, since the dollar is debt, and specie is positive money, then why hasn't the 10,000 ceiling been raised, as the price of gold goes up?

This idea if "you plebes will not carry 10k or more" seems to fail, when any plebe can carry say 30 lbs of gold on them with no problem, that's 30lbs * 16oz = 480oz * 1700 "dollars" = $816,000 dollars.

I hope you can see what is/has/will be/being/has been done/doing is being accomplished by code-knowing collegiate sages, who see the plebes as dangerous, if not controlled.

Money must be tangible and have weight, I have explained the King of Iron and what he will bring. Thanks Levi Philos for this great thread.

So if roughly 37 lbs of gold is roughly $1,000,000 worth of debt notes?

Then how the hell, can anyone be confused? Please, see what I have said from the start!

if a person is leaving or entering the nation, with poundage upon their person, then they are comitting the ultimate sin against the "currency" or "electric money current of the moneygrid(tm)" ...Moneygrid is a term I just coined. Haha, get it? Coined? ah well DERP.

Let us consider, how large scale money laundering, is done. It is done, as with Rothschild, through gold and silver as debauchery-vehicles. Can I explain it any more? Not just me, but all the others which Levi has added to this ABSOLUTE GEM of a thread, the best thread on Ye Internetes!

Let us ask ourselves how much 37 lbs of iron could be worth. As I have said, when the King of Iron arrives, he will have to end all debauching of human labor, via "instruments" like paper, gold silver, etc.

20 lbs of RFID issued Federal iron rod = 100 dollars. Unsmeltable, unmeltable, makes you stronger. Has no value per se, but does have much weight = STOPS BLACK MARKETS AND LAUNDERING DEAD.

20 lbs of gold = debauchable, transportable, ultimate weapon of mass work-value destruction. IS THE BLOODSTREAM OF ALL BLACK MARKETS.

Energy = work done = watts = ytour money is a black hole whose value is determined by the King if he is an evil King. If the King be good, your money will overflow like the Cornucopian Horn of Plenty.

COME HITER OH KING OF GOOD AND TRUE WORK AND REMUNERATION OF EFFORT DONE!

Oscar Schindler seemed to know that "work" does not "make you free", but what can we learn from him and his monetary backers?

2 things the human race will have to combine and achieve before we evolve.

if we don't, it will be like a stagnant parasite within us all.

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 876442

I absolutely agree.

People say "then nothing would get done!" if we get rid of money.

I disagree.

I like to think about it as household chores. Nobody in my household gets paid to do the chores. We do them because we know they need to get done. We do the dishes when they are dirty, we cut the grass when it needs to be cut and we take the trash out when its too full.

I feel like a household is a microcosm to the macrocosm which is a society.

If we did without money, the things that we actually wanted and needed would get done. The things that are done solely to make money off the masses would fall away. We'd find out what's actually important to us as a people.

Carpenters who love woodworking would still carve and build. Those who love designing cars would still design and build cars. Musicians who make music for the love of music would shine, and most of the garbage on the radio would fall away as most of that is corporate sponsered crap created just for money.

It'd be the best thing for us. I think we'd be a more peaceful, healthy society. All of the shit we don't really need would fall away because nobody would want to manufacture shit like that without a paycheck.

People need to open their minds and realize they're too attached to the "WE NEED MONEY TO EXIST AS A SOCIETY" mindset that's been fed to them since birth. There is another way.

COME HITHER OH KING OF GOOD AND TRUE WORK AND REMUNERATION OF EFFORT DONE!

Oscar Schindler seemed to know that "work" does not "make you free", but what can we learn from him and his monetary backers?

Quoting: helter smelter 27050477

Ah yeah, that's come hither, not come hitler, ah heh.

Hmm, but its useful to talk at length about how Austria got their International Bond in 1926 and how Hitler established his alliance with Nazi'ism, and so on.

Goering looks like a demonic cherub, but he really did know how to create "jobs" eh? Hahaha. Notice how he carried a rod everywhere?

I am reminded of how Aaron's rod in the bible, blossomed and fruited with almonds? Aaron was said to be super wise, he was like Kato, if Moses be The Green Hornet.

Haha, I'm messing with you here, but seriously, Hitler did strive for the crown of the good King Akhenaten. He idolized Nefertiti's bust, and of course the Vatican who empowered Hitler, have the Thutmoside Obelisk as their totem, so it is clear what personages they orbit.

But the word "hither" means "near" And the King of Iron is very near. Debt destroys humans, and only a strong support like iron, can help them to stand again.

Free markets can be loosely read as "debauchable markets"

Yet nobody like Chairman Mao and his technique of throwing bodies down the hole to make his nation "advance". Therefore, we are caught between two poles. And iron is able to affect magnetic fields if there be sufficient iron. It has a special power to soak up polarity like a rag soaks up blood. The power of iron to both cause bloodshed, and also to absorb and soak up that same blood, has not been explained yet. Or has it?

Soon, you will be walking over a scale when you pass through the borders.

Because true money has weight. And true money is a weapon of debauching nations. Meaning that freedom and true money, is dangerous unto the nth degreee.

To have actual un debauchable money, means you will need to use some metal heretofore unconsidered. Something which requires factories to counterfeit, and far too much energy to make it worth while.

A printing press is easy to run, its very economical. But to counterfeit rods of iron? No, thats a waste of time. And that is why the King of Iron comes near. How shall you vote a leader, and then go work for debt paper? Shalln't you desire true money, which value cannot be reduced?

People need to open their minds and realize they're too attached to the "WE NEED MONEY TO EXIST AS A SOCIETY" mindset that's been fed to them since birth. There is another way.

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27308713

Good post, I wanted to respond to this bit.

Consider, did the people of Akhenaten's day "need" the pyramids?

Because see, he moved to street level, but first he had to build a street, a mainstreet, AWAY from those old piles of rocks. The pyramids, though great, interfered with the truth of a good King trying to live at street level.

If Akhenaten had created his "main street" within view of the pyramids, he wouldn't have been able to have the people hear him.

US debt noted have the pyramid on them. This is due to the tribes that hate/love the good King Akhenaten. They seek to be him or summon him, etc. Or, they seek to occult him or eclipse his light (as with the black Aten of the Jesuits).

But he is similar to the Spartan King who smelted his country's money into iron rods. A good King will always act in the same way. Yes, Jesus and Buddha were also Kings/Princes and they acted rightly.

There is a template for a good King, and it is carved into a stamping press far beyond the power of one that mints coins. It is the all spark, the Good God of the center of the universe. When he stamps a King "good", that King must only do as the spirit directs. Let us consider what "Righteous and True" would mean, if a man were named this.

How would he act? Who would be his forefathers of the mind, and from whom would he take his spiritual counsel, and along what lines?

The term "disintermediation" is an economic term whose most frequent interpretation is "cutting out the middle-man."

So, I was reading Charles Eisenstein on disintermediation in his book SACRED ECONOMICS where he was explaining how Craigslist (a profitable business) has made advertising cheaper and more efficient while eliminating newspaper advertising. The ratio is at least ten to one - that is to say that for every dollar of profit Craigslist generates ten dollars (or more) is eliminated from the newspapers budget.

Disclaimer; my endorsement of the Charles Eisenstein book does not equate to "you should believe everything he writes or speaks." I merely recommend the book - there is a lot of thought provoking material to be found within the covers.

Credit given; the first time I encountered such arguments was in correspondence with Robert Hettinga about 1998-99.

Hettinga has not been producing much correspondence lately.

However, Hettinga frequently said that the geodesic economy would disintermediate government as an overhead removal tactic.

What I have written before (to the Tea Party group and other places) is that "government" which at one time may have been set up to protect people's rights and property has now degenerated to a bunch of pirates and road bandits with stationary offices. The people are made to line up in lines, genuflect to the officer, sign the paperwork and pay the toll for whatever activity they wish to pursue.

Embedded within the (incomplete) communication theory of money is the idea of competition in money types.