Actually, more appropriately, I'm looking for those Jews who left for us writings who lived around the Apostles and B.C.E. So between the time the Old Testament was written to the time of the Council of Nicea, although preferably before the second century really.

(watch out for next post, as I ask for a compilation of ancient Gentile works, both Greek and Far East )

Well, for what it's worth, as far as I was reading through Wiki entries and what not, this is the extent of my author/writing collections (which I understand some have been lost or extinct or fragmentary):

From what I can gather, this is so far the list of historical Jewish writings (in order as best as possible, with the understanding that there are ranges):

PseudepigraphaDemetrius the ChronographerAristobulus of PaneasPhilo of AlexandriaFlavius Josephus the HistorianDead Sea ScrollsThe AmidahTargum OnkelosMishnahToseftaJerusalem TalmudBabylon Talmud(from my understanding the Talmud should contain all the teachings of the Mishna, i.e. Gemara, and all the commentaries of the Mishna, including teachings of Hillel and Shamai and their Rabbinic successors)Minor TractatesTargum JonathanTargum Ps-Jonathan (Yerushalmi)(I know, I went a bit further than Nicea...considering that there are some complications in these writings and how they're compiled, I'm going up about about the 7th Century)

From what I can gather, the Midrash is a subset of Rabbinic literature (Rabbinic literature composed of Midrash and Tosefta) that are exegetical in nature. The Midrash is made up of Midrash Halakha (613 laws) and Midrash Aggadic (non-legal).

Apparently there is a significant body of Old Testament Apocryphal writings that are shared by some churches but not all. For example, I think one of those books might be valued one way in one Eastern Orthodox Church, and a different way in another E.O. church. And I clearly remember at least one of the Oriental churches considering a book deuterocanonical that was not part of at least one of an E.O. church's texts.

Logged

The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

Apparently there is a significant body of Old Testament Apocryphal writings that are shared by some churches but not all. For example, I think one of those books might be valued one way in one Eastern Orthodox Church, and a different way in another E.O. church. And I clearly remember at least one of the Oriental churches considering a book deuterocanonical that was not part of at least one of an E.O. church's texts.

That would be under the heading Pseudepigrapha.

Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Apparently there is a significant body of Old Testament Apocryphal writings that are shared by some churches but not all. For example, I think one of those books might be valued one way in one Eastern Orthodox Church, and a different way in another E.O. church. And I clearly remember at least one of the Oriental churches considering a book deuterocanonical that was not part of at least one of an E.O. church's texts.

That would be under the heading Pseudepigrapha.

Well, is Deuterocanonical the same as that term? Doesn't deuterocanonicity (second level canonicity) have greater value?

Anyway, perhaps I helped answer your question.

« Last Edit: February 25, 2013, 10:32:18 PM by rakovsky »

Logged

The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

Apparently there is a significant body of Old Testament Apocryphal writings that are shared by some churches but not all. For example, I think one of those books might be valued one way in one Eastern Orthodox Church, and a different way in another E.O. church. And I clearly remember at least one of the Oriental churches considering a book deuterocanonical that was not part of at least one of an E.O. church's texts.

That would be under the heading Pseudepigrapha.

Well, is Deuterocanonical the same as that term? Doesn't deuterocanonicity (second level canonicity) have greater value?

Anyway, perhaps I helped answer your question.

Academically speaking for the majority, Pseudepigrapha...

I didn't include the Septuagint Bible in here, simply because we already have it and read it regularly...but ya, technically, that should be in the beginning of the list.

Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Apparently there is a significant body of Old Testament Apocryphal writings that are shared by some churches but not all. For example, I think one of those books might be valued one way in one Eastern Orthodox Church, and a different way in another E.O. church. And I clearly remember at least one of the Oriental churches considering a book deuterocanonical that was not part of at least one of an E.O. church's texts.

That would be under the heading Pseudepigrapha.

Well, is Deuterocanonical the same as that term? Doesn't deuterocanonicity (second level canonicity) have greater value?

Anyway, perhaps I helped answer your question.

Academically speaking for the majority, Pseudepigrapha...

I didn't include the Septuagint Bible in here, simply because we already have it and read it regularly...but ya, technically, that should be in the beginning of the list.

Regarding pseudepigrapha:

Quote

Technically, a pseudepigraphon is a book written in a biblical style and ascribed to an author who did not write it. In common usage, however, the term pseudepigrapha is often used by way of distinction to refer to apocryphal writings that do not appear in printed editions of the Bible, as opposed to the texts listed above. Examples[26] include:

Letter of Aristeas Martyrdom and Ascension of Isaiah Joseph and Aseneth Life of Adam and Eve Lives of the Prophets(the Wikipedia page includes a longer list)

Jason of Cyrene? Perhaps he was earlier than the period of your focus here.

Selam

Logged

"Whether it’s the guillotine, the hangman’s noose, or reciprocal endeavors of militaristic horror, radical evil will never be recompensed with radical punishment. The only answer, the only remedy, and the only truly effective response to radical evil is radical love."+ Gebre Menfes Kidus +http://bookstore.authorhouse.com/Products/SKU-000984270/Rebel-Song.aspx

Other than the Amidah and those in the Dead Sea scrolls, any other liturgical or mystical writings written during this period? What about Kabbala or Zohar? Any parts of those claimed to be pre-7th Century?

Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Much Jewish prayer would have been biblical - the Psalms (e.g. the Hallel), the daily Shema, the weekly portions of Tora with their Haftarot (readings from the Prophets), etc.

Then, there must have been the liturgy of the Temple until 70 AD, with its priestly blessings (the Brikat hakohanim is found in the Tora). Certain Psalms were sung by the Levites each day - echoes of them are preserved in the Siddur: "On the ...th day after the Sabbath the Levites sang this Psalm". The regular animal sacrifices would have been performed in silence. There was Shofar blowing to mark the two daily sacrifices of lambs, there was raising of incense, the bread of the presence (lechem happanim) and everything prescribed in the Tora. But a lot was done silently, with blood or incense (imagine the High Priest going to the Holy of Holies to sprinkle it with blood).

As for the services of the Synagogue, the various prayers were first grouped together late in the 9th century in the Siddur (prayer book) of Rav Amram bar Sheshna from Babylon (d. 875). Some elements like the Amida were much older - they were mentioned in the Talmud by various sages.

Also, the Pesach Haggada, although not attested until much later, would have been completed by the 3rd/4th century.

Much Jewish prayer would have been biblical - the Psalms (e.g. the Hallel), the daily Shema, the weekly portions of Tora with their Haftarot (readings from the Prophets), etc.

Then, there must have been the liturgy of the Temple until 70 AD, with its priestly blessings (the Brikat hakohanim is found in the Tora). Certain Psalms were sung by the Levites each day - echoes of them are preserved in the Siddur: "On the ...th day after the Sabbath the Levites sang this Psalm". The regular animal sacrifices would have been performed in silence. There was Shofar blowing to mark the two daily sacrifices of lambs, there was raising of incense, the bread of the presence (lechem happanim) and everything prescribed in the Tora. But a lot was done silently, with blood or incense (imagine the High Priest going to the Holy of Holies to sprinkle it with blood).

As for the services of the Synagogue, the various prayers were first grouped together late in the 9th century in the Siddur (prayer book) of Rav Amram bar Sheshna from Babylon (d. 875). Some elements like the Amida were much older - they were mentioned in the Talmud by various sages.

Also, the Pesach Haggada, although not attested until much later, would have been completed by the 3rd/4th century.

Some valuable information here...so even though compilations were much late, some of them have ancient elements in it. Sounds similar to Church liturgical development as well. Sounds like a complicated subject of compilation all on its own...lol

What about Kabbalistic writings? Despite its late appearance, is there any credibility to the claims that some of those writings were of the ancient times I am seeking?

What about Kabbalistic writings? Despite its late appearance, is there any credibility to the claims that some of those writings were of the ancient times I am seeking?

The Kabbala is a late medieval development - despite all claims to antiquity. I think all modern scholars agree to trace it to the 12/13th century in Fance and Spain. However, its esoteric predecessors in the first millenium AD would be the Hekhalot and Merkava literature. There are connections with Christian Apocalypticism - see the Jewish Roots of Eastern Christian Mysticism site.

What about Kabbalistic writings? Despite its late appearance, is there any credibility to the claims that some of those writings were of the ancient times I am seeking?

The Kabbala is a late medieval development - despite all claims to antiquity. I think all modern scholars agree to trace it to the 12/13th century in Fance and Spain. However, it's esoteric predecessors in the first millenium AD would be the Hekhalot and Merkava literature. There are connections with Christian Apocalypticism - see the Jewish Roots of Eastern Christian Mysticism site.

Okay...In the Responsa project, I'm assuming any literature number 10 and below (starting from Zohar, then Geonim, then Commentaries, etc) are all much later, like starting at the 10th century and on.

Not necessarily - most midrashim were compiled in the Middle Ages, but they contain oral material from sages who lived much earlier (like the Talmud). Also, most Geonim precede the 10th century.

It's a maze! Mazel tov if you want to go through it all! And as they say: ose lekha rav - 'find yourself a teacher'... That's what St. Jerome did, anyways.

If you're just curious, I think reading the English translations available for free should be more than enough. If you can't read Hebrew and Aramaic, most rabbinical literature (especially kabbala which relies heavily on language play) will be unintelligible.

Okay...In the Responsa project, I'm assuming any literature number 10 and below (starting from Zohar, then Geonim, then Commentaries, etc) are all much later, like starting at the 10th century and on.

Not necessarily - most midrashim were compiled in the Middle Ages, but they contain oral material from sages who lived much earlier (like the Talmud). Also, most Geonim precede the 10th century.

It's a maze! Mazel tov if you want to go through it all! And as they say: ose lekha rav - 'find yourself a teacher'... That's what St. Jerome did, anyways.

If you're just curious, I think reading the English translations available for free should be more than enough. If you can't read Hebrew and Aramaic, most rabbinical literature (especially kabbala which relies heavily on language play) will be unintelligible.

For real! I am forever lost in this maze of Jewish literature! LOL...but yes...it looks like I might need to consult some Jewish people for help. Anyone know good Jewish academic forums I can consult?

I might also read this book called "Introduction to the Talmud and Midrash"...that looks helpful.

Oy vey!

Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

SeptuagintApocryphaPseudepigrapha (including the Letter of Aristeas)*Demetrius the Chronographer*Aristobulus of PaneasPhilo of AlexandriaFlavius Josephus the HistorianDead Sea ScrollsThe AmidahPesach HaggadaTargum OnkelosMishnahToseftaJerusalem TalmudBabylon Talmud(from my understanding the Talmud should contain all the teachings of the Mishna, i.e. Gemara, and all the commentaries of the Mishna, including teachings of Hillel and Shamai and their Rabbinic successors)Minor TractatesTargum JonathanTargum Ps-Jonathan (Yerushalmi)Siddur (although compiled late, yet of ancient importance)(I know, I went a bit further than Nicea...considering that there are some complications in these writings and how they're compiled, I'm going up about about the 7th Century)

From what I can gather, the Midrash is a subset of Rabbinic literature (Rabbinic literature composed of Midrash and Tosefta) that are exegetical in nature. The Midrash is made up of Midrash Halakha (613 laws) and Midrash Aggadic (non-legal).

Okay...so I'm assuming either the Amidah or the Siddur has some Kavanot written in it. Or is there another separate body of writing of Kavanot?

No, not really - in the Siddur, there are just rubrics or some footnotes indicating that particular attention needs to be paid to the Amida, for instance, and that if any interruption occurs, one should start over from the beginning. Occasionally it mentions that this or that word or letter needs to be stressed in pronunciation.

I think what the rabbis debated over was casuistic: if one prays or performs a mitzva (commandment) with one's mind elsewhere or for the wrong purpose, would that prayer be received or the mitzva fulfilled? For instance, it is wrong in Judaism to recite the words of a blessing for any other purpose than that for which it is prescribed (e. g. eating a particular kind of fruit for the first time in a year). One is forbidden, for instance, to read out a liturgical text/prayer just to make a recording (at least among Orthodox Jews). That would be an example of wrong kavana.

In Kabbala, kavana has an additional meaning - one would meditate on "names of God" which are more or less meaningless letters (sort of like mantras) but they are associated with various kavanot (intentions). If you want X (kavana), you visualize Y (series of letters).

In Kabbala, kavana has an additional meaning - one would meditate on "names of God" which are more or less meaningless letters (sort of like mantras) but they are associated with various kavanot (intentions). If you want X (kavana), you visualize Y (series of letters).

Okay...now this is interesting. A little bit off topic here: a while ago, I started this thread discussing the thoughts and theology of Dr. George Bebawi (which one of these days, I will resurrect to continue), who has quite a complicated and interesting history, and is now in the Eastern Orthodox Church. He has some interesting and controversial views of things. He also talks about his past as an Egyptian Jew before he became an Orthodox Christian, and how this background seems to affect his thoughts on things when discussing Christian theology.

One of the interesting things that he talked about in his lectures iconography. He seems to have a bit of an aversion to iconography, although not extremely against it. He says that in reality, when one should pray to God and think of some characteristic of God or Christ, we should turn this image in our heads into words. This confused me a bit, and I really don't understand where he got this teaching from, but he seems to refer to this as a higher mature form of prayer in Orthodoxy. But now that you mention the Kabbalistic kavana, I wonder if his Jewish background has anything to do with this.

Very interesting stuff.

Thank you again...you've been a major help in this thread.

As I learn more, I will probably ask more questions. In the meantime, if you have anymore to add, please feel free to post.

PS I just realized my updated list post was my 6,666th post...lol

« Last Edit: February 26, 2013, 11:18:42 PM by minasoliman »

Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Here are the other midrashim that Mina didn’t mention – they are haggadic (hagiographic - stories about Bible figures < lehagid = to tell [a story]), exegetical (commentaries) or homiletical (sermons), as opposed to the other ones which were halakhic (dealing with rules and prescriptions/ “canon law” from halakh = “to walk”).

Here are the other midrashim that Mina didn’t mention – they are haggadic (hagiographic - stories about Bible figures < lehagid = to tell [a story]), exegetical (commentaries) or homiletical (sermons), as opposed to the other ones which were halakhic (dealing with rules and prescriptions/ “canon law” from halakh = “to walk”).

Wikipedia has a timeline/list of Rabbinic literature on the side of every Midrash page you open, from which I used to try to make my chronological list above. A lot of the names listed is recognized in the Responsa, and I have a feeling that some of the titles given in Responsa Midrash encompass more than one title in the Wiki list. As I delve deeply, I realize also there's more literature than just what is listed here, so I'm hoping the Responsa is much more complete than this one here:

I would suggest the best place to start inquiring into Rabbinics is the Pirke Avot - "The chapters of the Fathers". It's the most accessible part of the Talmud. They resemble the sayings (apophthegmata) of the Desert Fathers.

As for haggada (extra hagiographic material on Biblical figures), if one doesn't have the patience or time to go through all the Midrashim - rabba and zuta - there's Ginzberg's Legends of the Jews, arrayed in neat chronological order. It's even freely available as an audibook on Librivox.

For Scripture interpretation, the Targums should be the most accessible.