Dharmadhyaksa: ...Srila Prabhupada, more pictures of rats and pigeons than human beings. In the modern textbooks of psychology you find more pictures of rats and pigeons than human beings.

Prabhupada: Why?

Dharmadhyaksa: Because they feel that they can study the behavior of rats and pigeons very easily, much more easily than a human being. They can manipulate them. And then they extrapolate from their data on the rats and pigeons as to what human behavior is.

Prabhupada: So, but they say that except man, there is no soul?

Jayatirtha: But now they say that no one has a soul.

Dharmadhyaksa: No, the modern psychological definition is that man is a flesh and blood organism and that you can know man by studying his bodily processes.

Prabhupada: Then why don't you give life to the flesh and blood?

Dharmadhyaksa: That is a problem.

Prabhupada: Then it is foolishness.

Dharmadhyaksa: Oh, definitely.

Bahulasva: In California they have passed a law that homosexuality is legal. So the psychologists say that they see the dogs and the hogs and monkeys having homosex relationships, so on that grounds, they say, it should be legal.

Prabhupada: They have got homosex? Dogs, hogs, I don't think.

Bahulasva: Yeah, dogs, they say. We were preaching in this one convention that the dogs are also fighting. So therefore fighting and murder should be legal too because the dogs do that also.

Brahmananda: Their argument was because the dogs have homosex, therefore the man should have...?

Bahulasva: Should have homosex.

Dharmadhyaksa: Yes, if an animal does it, then a human being should have the same right to do it also.

Jayatirtha: Then they can pass stool in the street also?

Prabhupada: Then what is the difference between man and animal? They do not find any difference?

Bahulasva: No.

Prabhupada: Then why they find difference in having soul?

Brahmananda: Well, that is the Christian. But these modern psychologists, they don't even think that the human being has soul. That he's the same as the animal.

Bahulasva: They think that birth is the beginning of the body and that when death comes everything is finished.

Prabhupada: So why again body comes?

Bahulasva: What body is that, Srila Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: Just like you take fruits from the tree. Again fruits come.

Dharmadhyaksa: That is the genes. Before a body dies, it produces some sperm or something and this by-product, and in this by-product there is the life principle, and it is transmitted just like a seed. So the body produces some seeds, and in the genes, in the genetic code, there is a program, and by chance a new being comes into existence.

Prabhupada: Again chance.

Bahulasva: This has become a very popular subject, psychology. About 80% of the students take a class in this. And they took a survey, and the reason most students take this class is to find out more about who they are themself. So it is the closest thing in the west to self-realization.

Jayatirtha: They've found out that "I am no better than the animal"? That's the conclusion?

Dharmadhyaksa: One school. Then there's another school. They say, "How can you base a theory of human nature on animals?" They do not like this. They are revolting against making man an animal.

Bahulasva: Bhagavad-gita gives the best psychology.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Bahulasva: How to control the mind to uplift the self.

Prabhupada: [break] So why the dogs cannot construct such building? [break] ...psychology? Why they haven't got the same psychology?

Dharmadhyaksa: Well, the scientists would say that "We have the same psychology. We have a material psychology, the dog has a material psychology, but we're just a little more advanced, that's all."

Prabhupada: So similarly, there may be others who are still advanced. Therefore the most advanced is God. This should be the psychology. As we see there is difference between dogs and hogs and man, so go on. Search out. So when you find out the most intelligent person, then he is God. [break] ...parataram nanyat. That is statement of Bhagavad-gita: "No more intelligent. Here, ultimate. I am God." So from psychological point of view how they can deny God?

Yadubara: No one is teaching that in this big university. Therefore the students are very discouraged, depressed.

Prabhupada: Isvarah paramah krsnah [Bs. 5.1]. Paramah, paramah means the Supreme. Our definition of God is that supreme in every respect. What man can do, the dog cannot do. What the dog can do, the cat cannot do. What the cat can do, the rat cannot do. So we see so many differences. Therefore there must be others who are more intelligent than man. That is demigod. And there must be others most intelligent than the demigods. In this way when you come to the final, that is Krsna. Isvarah paramah krsnah [Bs. 5.1]. Go on finding out more, more, more. When you come to the final, that is God or Krsna. So we take instruction from Him. Therefore we are better than the so-called university professors.

Bahulasva: In this tower they had to put glass so the students wouldn't jump out. (laughter)

Prabhupada: Ohh! Just see.

Yadubara: In 1963 they had... I think they put these things up, but so many people were committing suicide by jumping.

Prabhupada: Why they were committing suicide?

Yadubara: Because everyone was very depressed. This is supposed to be enlightenment, a place of knowledge. But everyone was very depressed.

Dharmadhyaksa: Being taught that they are the body. I went to a Catholic university and they taught me in psychology, and it was a priest. And they were teaching this, that I am a bodily process. And he never challenged the textbook. So when one thinks he's the body and if he's intelligent, a very depressing thought. Even in the Catholic universities they use these textbooks that teach this materialism.

Dharmadhyaksa: Srila Prabhupada, when the jiva soul desires to enter the material world, is that an illusory desire?

Prabhupada: Yes. Desire means he wants to enjoy, but he is not enjoyer. When he comes to enjoy, he becomes servant. That is illusion.

Dharmadhyaksa: So when the jiva soul descends into the material world, it is like a hallucination?

Prabhupada: Yes. We get experience daily. In the daytime we have forgotten the night dream, and night dream we forget in this daytime existence. So which is correct? Therefore it is hallucination. [break]

Dharmadhyaksa: ...one psychologist who believes man is his body but he talks very much about transcendence. Even the materialists now, they realize that the present condition is very miserable and this false ego is the cause of all problems, so they are seeking some form of transcendence. And many psychologists are talking about transcendence nowadays as the solution to life's problems.

Prabhupada: What do they define about transcendence?

Dharmadhyaksa: Well, actually they give all the characteristics of transcendence that are found in the Bhagavad-gita but without saying that man is a spirit soul and without talking about Krsna. They believe man should overcome duality, should be beyond attachment, should work for a higher goal in life, things like this, all the characteristics that Krsna gives but without Krsna.

Bahulasva: It appears that they have taken these things from Bhagavad-gita.

Prabhupada: Yes, they must. What is this department? [break] ...cial science.

Bahulasva: How to live in peace. How to live, peaceful society.

Prabhupada: And fall down from the tower? (laughter)

Dharmadhyaksa: That is part of the study, Srila Prabhupada. It's called alienation, why people are alienated.

Prabhupada: Now it is very peaceful, fall down and finish. That's all. Suicide.

Dharmadhyaksa: The reason they say that people are committing suicide is there is not enough meaning in life, and there's not enough meaning in life because the capitalists are exploiting all the people and making people work very, very hard.

Prabhupada: But they have meaning, life. You have no meaning, but they have meaning. Some section have meaning. They are accusing capitalist. So they have meaning. Why you say there is no meaning? You have no meaning. You have no money -- you have no meaning. (laughter)

Dharmadhyaksa: That is their feeling, that if everyone had equal...

Prabhupada: No, therefore you cannot say life has no meaning. You have no meaning, but others may have. You cannot say, generalization, that life has no meaning.

Bahulasva: We can say your life has no meaning.

Prabhupada: Yes. You are unfortunate. You have no meaning. We have meaning. We are going back to home, back to Godhead.

Dharmadhyaksa: Jaya. Another reason they feel very depressed is that they feel powerless, that they have no power to control their destiny, that all the big social forces, all the big social powers, they're controlling their lives, and...

Prabhupada: Then why you are so much proud of having all the knowledge? Then you admit that you are a rascal. You have no... You are dependent, and you are trying to be independent. That is not being possible, therefore you are rascal. Your education has no meaning because you are dependent and you are trying to be independent.

Dharmadhyaksa: Most professors nowadays, they will admit that they have no absolute knowledge, that everything they know is relative and that there might be something much better than what they are teaching.

Prabhupada: There might... There is. But you rascal, you do not take it. That is your fault. There is, not "There might be." Here is Bhagavad-gita. [break] ...Bhagavad-gita it is said, etat jnanam: "This is knowledge, and all other things, they are not knowledge." Etat jnanam.

Bahulasva: Anything other than this is ignorance?

Prabhupada: Ignorance.

Citsukhananda: Your teachings, the teachings of Bhagavad-gita as it is, had not come here before. So these people are misled. So just recently you have presented. So in a sense it is not their fault because they have had not the chance to hear Bhagavad-gita as it is. They have got many Bhagavad-gita, but they were not able to understand. But now by your grace, maybe we'll see the reaction in a few years. Maybe all this will change.

Prabhupada: Do they say like that or you are saying?

Citsukhananda: Well, some people have said. Not widely yet. The work must go on. There's much to go. [break]

Dharmadhyaksa: Bacteriology, study of germs. So Srila Prabhupada, the reason one person gets a disease from a germ and another person doesn't get a disease, it is karma?

Prabhupada: No, that is infection. If you are weak, you are infected. That is the science. One who is not weak, he does not become infected. Just like in your country there are so many liquor shop, but you are not interested. So it is like that.

Dharmadhyaksa: We have a little strength through your divine grace.

Prabhupada: Yes. There are so many slaughterhouses, but we are not infected. So it is the strength that saves one man from infection. [break] ...learned scholars, they are astonished that I have hypnotized. Otherwise how it is possible? What that Judah's, "charis"...?

Brahmananda: Charismatic.

Prabhupada: Charismatic.

Bahulasva: They say that we're becoming brainwashed.

Prabhupada: That's all right. Why you cannot do? It is brainwash, yes, all dirty things you are...

Dharmadhyaksa: In modern psychology, Srila Prabhupada, only until very recently, they did not even want to talk about consciousness. There was no mention of consciousness because it was not a scientific thing that they could observe.

Prabhupada: Scientific... It is the most crude thing. Everyone knows. Even the animal, even the ant, they have got consciousness.

Dharmadhyaksa: Well, it embarrassed them that they know everyone has consciousness but there was no way they could measure it or, according to gross science, get some factual information about it. So it embarrassed them so much, they tried to avoid the subject, hush it up, not speak about it.

Prabhupada: That is their disease. When they cannot make any solution, they avoid it. [break] ...touch the real point, that why there is death. Nobody will touch because they cannot make any solution. Why do they not have a department?

Dharmadhyaksa: Nowadays they're actually realizing their error and they're studying death more, trying to prepare people for death more. But the only thing they can tell them is, "Accept it." The only thing they can do is say, "You are going to die. So just accept it with a cheerful attitude."

Prabhupada: But I do not wish to die. Why shall I be cheerful? You rascal, you say, "Become cheerful." (laughter) "Cheerfully, you become hanged." (laughter) The lawyer will say, "Never mind. You have lost the case. Now you cheerfully be hanged." (laughter)

Dharmadhyaksa: That is actually... The whole goal of modern psychology is to make people adjust to the fact that they must stay in this material world and that if you have some desire to leave the material world, they will tell you you are crazy. "No, no. Now you must adjust more again to the material condition."

Prabhupada: The same logic, "Cheerfully be hanged." That's all. As soon as there is some difficult subject, they give up. And they speculate on some nonsense thing. That's all. This is their education. Education means atyantika-duhkha-nivrtti, the ultimate solution of all unhappiness. That is education, not that after coming to some extent, "No, you can die happily." And what is duhkha, unhappiness? That is presented by Krsna: janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi duhkha-dosanu... [Bg. 13.9]. These are your unhappiness. Try to solve it. And that they are carefully avoiding. They cannot stop death, neither birth, nor old age, nor disease. And during the short period of life, birth and death, they are making big, big buildings, and next time he is becoming one rat within the buildings. (laughter) Nature. You cannot avoid the nature's law. As you cannot avoid death, similarly, nature will give you another body. Become a tree in this university. Stand up for five thousand years. You wanted to be naked. Now nobody will object. You stand here naked.

Bahulasva: They do that also. They have a fad now. It's called streakers.

Prabhupada: Yes. So therefore their punishment is to become tree, to cat, dog, like that. That they cannot explain, why there is cat life, dog life, human life, rich(?) life. That they cannot do. All big questions, they have avoided. And they remain perpetually a rascal. That is their education. Mudha, Krsna says, mudha, naradhama: "Lowest of the mankind." Human life was meant for real education. They remain the same rascal and dies very happily. Mudhas. [break]

Dharmadhyaksa: In the pictures of the acaryas sometimes yourself and Bhaktisiddhanta has their left hand touching the ground. Is there any meaning to that?

Prabhupada: Touching?

Dharmadhyaksa: Yes. There's a picture, and your hand is like this.

Prabhupada: No. [break]

Bahulasva: Many students are here during the day. They come and set up the Deities and then do kirtana and give out prasadam.

Prabhupada: Do that. Continue that. They will be infected.

Bahulasva: Yes.

Prabhupada: Infect them.

Bahulasva: Their brains will be washed. We will have big success with this new temple here, Srila Prabhupada. Many of these students will come and visit us. People like us very much here, at least the students.

Prabhupada: That is very good. Students are the future hope, young students.

Dharmadhyaksa: Srila Prabhupada, we should teach them to live very simply, to give up all of this complexity that is causing them so much agitation and depression and just live very simply, chant Hare Krsna.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is greatest common factor. Whatever he may be, if he is induced to chant, that is very good, and take prasadam. [break] ...canvas(?) pasted there? Granada? Granada.