huh. well. i'm not sure how to take that. except take the REAL high road and say that we are all entitled to our opinions, and to sharing them. i also advise you to refer to my first post in this topic, where i specifically post many things i really do like about bella.

i will also say that different people read for different reasons - who be you to criticize my reasons or anyone else's?

i DO admire that bella went after what she loved. and i do admire her strength in that.

what i don't admire is how she went about it, and her treatment of people. it IS possible to get what you want/need, and have some consideration for others at the same time.

i find that bellla is very immature, and in being immature, she is very strong in some ways and very weak in others.

i find her will to be quite strong, almost too strong. when she wants something - she gets it. no matter what. she is also very responsible, having taken care of renee and then the household stuff she does for charlie.

however, i don't think she has the type of strength that makes her a strong person. she doesn't have strength of character. she doesn't stand up for the treatment of her friends. until recently, she communicated with edward terribly. she went into a catatonic state when her boyfriend left her.

i think we may define strength differently. i define a strong person as someone who can take care of themselves. a person who is independent, or at least can be. a person who knows how to treat other people well. a person who can handle emotional pain. a person who doesn't waste energy feeling sorry for herself. someone who puts others before themselves. a person who stands up for their friends, and most importantly, a person who can recognize their faults and try to do something about them.

furthermore, a person can be strong and self centered and selfish.

and also, juliet going after her true love was strong because she had to overcome warring families, and incredibly strong forces keeping her and romeo apart. what real terrible things has bella had to overcome for her love??? she's endured physical pain in her transformation, obviously, but when did she show strength in going after edward?? charlie wasn't trying to keep them apart. edward's family accepted her immediately. she never once sought edward out in the beginning of their relationship. in fact, she didn't really go after him, he sort of just happened to her.

but i can see her showing strength in Twilight, when she went to save Renee. and I can see how strong she was when she went to Voterra.

but the strongest? Edward has put himself through constant physical pain, denied himself the most delectable thing imaginable, put himself through great emotional pain, broken his own heart, in attempts to keep her safe. asked Jacob to offer to father bella's child, in a last ditch attempt to keep her alive.

Jacob, knowing it was going to hurt like hell, and he was probably going to fail, did his best to make bella see that she loved him, putting himself through great emotional pain, just for the slight glimmer of hope that she'd choose humanity. then he didn't even desert her when she was basically killing herself, even though it hurt him so much to see her like that.

what did bella do for love, exactly, that made her so strong in going after it?

Auctorita, i agree with you hun, i do. i'm just saying that we can't necessarily blame them, i mean, just because they don't yell at her doesn't mean they agree. they may not think it is their place, in fact, they probably don't, and it's kind of not. also, Leah yelled at her for Jake, not Edward. is it late where you are???

unlikelyfan wrote:Well, I don't really get what is with all the Bella hating...but I choose to take the higher road and ignore the fact that all these people are criticizes the main character of the novels they lvoe so dearly..without Bella there is no story. And I know...Oh Edward, Oh Jake....Bella is the one who risked her life, her friends, her family, her own life!...for hte sake of love...and that is really selfish...but also undeniably beautiful....and also what every other person in the world wishes they had the strength to do. I was so happy for her when she became a vampire and she was actually so much better at it than most would ahev dreamed! This is what she deserved...to me it shows that she got her happy ending because she did what was right for her, for love. She got it all....because she risked it all and was willing to give it up in order to be with the one she loved.

and I am babbling...

but my point....

is that Bella...is I think emotionally the strongest literary character in the series. It all goes back to Romeo and Juliet...sad but true...and it doens't stop there. it gets a lot from Tuck Everlasting too...although Bella is much more selfish than Winnie Foster...she didn't care about anything than the fact that she loved Edward Cullen and wanted to spend all of eternity with her.

oh sometimes i am too much for myself. I just write bs like its my job. haha

THANK YOU!!! Goodness..i really can't see why alot of people rag on Bella so much is it really so horrible that she risked everything for love? I don't intend on debating this for 4 pages back-and-forth, because of course everyone has their opinion. I really just can't see her emotional weaknesses as much as everyone claims them. To be honest her emotional breakdowns were totally logical to me- especially with the Edward & Jacob decision in Eclipse..i must admit i'd be torn at the same situation; CHOOSING BETWEEN TWO GUYS YOU LOVE?? Tough crap! I actually kinda admire Bella in the sense that she is so selfless in many situations- the fact that in Twilight she tries to keep her father safe- constantly worried about Jake in Eclipse, feeling horrible for putting everyone in danger to fight the newborns in eclipse...i don't know i just really can't see where all the selfishness is in her that everyone talks about? Sure, she has those instances, but does a few moments of selfishness really make someone a bad person with poor morals? I hope not cause if so i'm a total jerk haha.

holdingoutforjacob wrote:what did bella do for love, exactly, that made her so strong in going after it?

Auctorita, i agree with you hun, i do. i'm just saying that we can't necessarily blame them, i mean, just because they don't yell at her doesn't mean they agree. they may not think it is their place, in fact, they probably don't, and it's kind of not. also, Leah yelled at her for Jake, not Edward. is it late where you are???

Nothing that I can recall. She can still see Charlie and she was able to have a child and these were the main sacrifices she would have to make. I've probably missed something though.

True, it's not their fault. I have to admire their ability to never say a word against Bella for so long, especially Rosalie considering all the conflicts Bella brings along with her (she is in danger for the majority of the series after all) along with her behaviour on top of it.

It's not late yet but it will be soon if I can't get myself away from the computer .

i want to be very clear about this. NO ONE IS FAULTING BELLA FOR RISKING EVERYTHING FOR LOVE. i have no idea where any of you got that idea, but i'm dispelling it now.

you want examples of bella's selfishness? i got em.

i will admit that when it comes to her parents, bella is very selfless.

i think she sort of has it backwards. in my opinion, if you're gonna be selfish with anyone, it should be your parents. that's what they are there for. to provide for you, to give you everything they can. to take care of you physically and emotionally.

in eclipse, yes, it's HARD. i don't blame her for being upset, for having trouble with it, for any of that, i'd do the same.

what i blame her for is the way in which she treats people and the fact that she may say she makes mistakes and has faults, but she in no way attempts to correct them.

when does she worry about jake in eclipse? basically, in new moon and eclipse, she sends him mixed signals, then gets mad at him for interpreting them wrong. bella really takes him for granted and treats him horribly.

bella's breakdown in New Moon seemed normal to you? if so, i am concerned.

bella is sometimes selfish. it's not entirely too often, but when it happens, it's BIG. she's more self-centered. things revolve around her. she can't step outside herself to see her actions.

yeah, she knows she's hurting people, and she feels bad, but not bad enough to stop, and not bad enough to change. being sorry doesn't count unless you DO something about it. but she's too self-centered to bother.

holdingoutforjacob wrote:what did bella do for love, exactly, that made her so strong in going after it?

Auctorita, i agree with you hun, i do. i'm just saying that we can't necessarily blame them, i mean, just because they don't yell at her doesn't mean they agree. they may not think it is their place, in fact, they probably don't, and it's kind of not. also, Leah yelled at her for Jake, not Edward. is it late where you are???

Nothing that I can recall. She can still see Charlie and she was able to have a child and these were the main sacrifices she would have to make. I've probably missed something though.

True, it's not their fault. I have to admire their ability to never say a word against Bella for so long, especially Rosalie considering all the conflicts Bella brings along with her (she is in danger for the majority of the series after all) along with her behaviour on top of it.

It's not late yet but it will be soon if I can't get myself away from the computer .

i whole-heartedly agree! i think everyone is very accepting of bella because edward loves her so much, and they love edward so much.

edward, as much as i prefer jacob, is possibly one of the MOST selfless and strong characters.

I couldn't agree more. Bella is very self centered and treats some of the characters horribly throughout the book. She feels remorse for some of them but never really makes an effort to avoid repeating her mistakes. This is one of the reasons why I have little sympathy for Bella.

well, i don't hate bella. at all, in fact. she is sort of an embodiment of the faults i succumb to in my moments of weakness. i think bella can get mistaken for strong because she's surrounded by such immensely strong people - charlie, jacob, edward, alice. what interests me is how different bella used to be when she was only around jacob - vivid, alive, happy, STRONG vs. how she was around edward - clingy, weak, needy, timidwhen she's by herself, her thoughts, the things we, as readers, get to see her character contradicts itself all the time. sometimes i wonder if SM actually meant it to be that way....

I can kind of see where you come from saying Bella is selfish.Though it seems that the world revolves around her because we see it through her eyes. She is telling the story and is everywhere. Then for the majority of the series sh was considered the weakest most valurable because she was human and every other mythical creature was trying to protect her.And all she does is for others basically. She tries to keep everyone protected at all times and if they are all protected then her reward would be sanity of mind. It would also be hard for her to step outside her own shoes since she has multiple things on her mind. Though if we were to see her from someone else's prospective, say Edward's in Midnight Sun, he would see her as trying to do the impossible by attempting in protecting both her parents and then worrying about the rest of the Cullens. I would have to agrgue that that is what she does most of the time, is worry about everyone else but herself.Then with her treatment of others, more so of Jacob. It was subconciously done. She wanted to be near him, but knew it would hurt him. I am willing to bet that if Jacob told her that he was going to stay away from her and gave her the full truth why. She would be upset at first but then accept it, not because it would make it easier for her, but because it was what Jacob wanted. The reason why she kept going to Jacob in New Moon after he told her to stay aways was because she knew he wasn't giving her the full truth. And Bella wasn't always going back to Jacob, more often he went to her. I could say Jacob let himself be used by Bella. Bella admits that she was using Jacob, but she does try to correct it. She wants to, but something she never quite figures out doesn't allow her to do so.Yes, with Jacob she was much more carefree, alive, and happy. She was also more dependent on him than she was with Edward. She needed him to be there for her so she could be all those things. If not she was back to depressed and a boring person. Jacob brought that side out in her. With Edward it wasn't that she was clingy or timid, they completed each other. Two halves of a whole. They changed each other in profound ways so much that they were empty without the other. Bella found courage to do more things, because she had Edward.I am a firm believer that one has the right to think of themselves and how to care for themselves, if we didn't would we accept the help of others? Most of the times Bella wants to do things herself. When she knows the problem is too big for her to handle she relunctedly accepts the help of others. When Edward left her she didn't want anyone to worry about her, but eventually allowed Jacob to help her heal. In that process they took a wrong turn she ended up needing him there all the time.I don't know if I'm making any sense, but one does deserve to think about one's self every now and then, but that doesn't make one selfish. When Bella does think about herself, she knows she should give herself attention and tries to.

simplymortal314 wrote:I can kind of see where you come from saying Bella is selfish.Though it seems that the world revolves around her because we see it through her eyes. She is telling the story and is everywhere. Then for the majority of the series sh was considered the weakest most valurable because she was human and every other mythical creature was trying to protect her.And all she does is for others basically. She tries to keep everyone protected at all times and if they are all protected then her reward would be sanity of mind. It would also be hard for her to step outside her own shoes since she has multiple things on her mind. Though if we were to see her from someone else's prospective, say Edward's in Midnight Sun, he would see her as trying to do the impossible by attempting in protecting both her parents and then worrying about the rest of the Cullens. I would have to agrgue that that is what she does most of the time, is worry about everyone else but herself.Then with her treatment of others, more so of Jacob. It was subconciously done. She wanted to be near him, but knew it would hurt him. I am willing to bet that if Jacob told her that he was going to stay away from her and gave her the full truth why. She would be upset at first but then accept it, not because it would make it easier for her, but because it was what Jacob wanted. The reason why she kept going to Jacob in New Moon after he told her to stay aways was because she knew he wasn't giving her the full truth. And Bella wasn't always going back to Jacob, more often he went to her. I could say Jacob let himself be used by Bella. Bella admits that she was using Jacob, but she does try to correct it. She wants to, but something she never quite figures out doesn't allow her to do so.Yes, with Jacob she was much more carefree, alive, and happy. She was also more dependent on him than she was with Edward. She needed him to be there for her so she could be all those things. If not she was back to depressed and a boring person. Jacob brought that side out in her. With Edward it wasn't that she was clingy or timid, they completed each other. Two halves of a whole. They changed each other in profound ways so much that they were empty without the other. Bella found courage to do more things, because she had Edward.I am a firm believer that one has the right to think of themselves and how to care for themselves, if we didn't would we accept the help of others? Most of the times Bella wants to do things herself. When she knows the problem is too big for her to handle she relunctedly accepts the help of others. When Edward left her she didn't want anyone to worry about her, but eventually allowed Jacob to help her heal. In that process they took a wrong turn she ended up needing him there all the time.I don't know if I'm making any sense, but one does deserve to think about one's self every now and then, but that doesn't make one selfish. When Bella does think about herself, she knows she should give herself attention and tries to.

actually, bella's THOUGHTS are self centered. i'm not stupid. i understand that the books themselves revolve around her.

how is bella's mistreatment of jacob sub-conscious when she knows she's doing it??? and feels bad all the time about it???

bella treats. him. like. crap. the way she talks to him, the way she gives him mixed signals and then turns on him, the way she doesn't appreciate him, or any of the things he's done for her, the way she ditches him for edward, the way she gripes at him even when he's helping her, the way she has NO THOUGHT WHATSOEVER for how much pain his actions may be causing him, only that they are making her life difficult. that's despicable, and incredibly self-centered.

you've described bella as a martyr. she is not this selfless person who neglects to give herself attention AT ALL. she gives her wants/needs/desires PLENTY of attention. they rule her life.

bella is driven by her own desires. all the time. bella goes to jacob in eclipse not because jacob really needs her but because she feels guilty and misses him. sends him notes through charlie. desperate ones. then he shows up at her school, and what does she do? treats him like she wishes he hadn't come. why? because edward was there, and SHE didn't want him to be mad at HER for being friendly to jacob and it would have been uncomfortable for HER to deal with the issue of their disrespect towards each other then.

bella keeps edward out of the fight with the newborns, putting the rest of the cullens and the wolves in danger because SHE can't be left alone and SHE doesn't want to be left out.

bella jumps off a cliff because SHE wants to hear edward's voice to make HER feel better.

bella knows that she hurts jake all the time, and does it anyway, continually, and then cries about it later.

bella doesn't want to correct the fact that she's using jacob all the time. if she did she would. as for jacob coming to her - no. let's think.

new moon: jacob is just sitting in his garage when bella pops up, looking a mess. new moon after becoming a werewolf: bella stakes out the house.admittedly, after alice shows up, he does come back to check on her, to make sure she's ok. he doesn't plan on staying, and even brings back up.ok then, now on to eclipse. first: they aren't speaking and bella is desperate to see him.second: jacob comes to school to warn bella that her life is in danger. bella is rude and mean and ungrateful. then in the end says something that i'm sure softens him. third: jake sends note that they can try to see each other on the rez.fourth: bella runs away from edward to see jake.fifth: bella continues to go to la push, although it upsets edward, and only gives jake false hope.then in BD, jake goes to bella, but only because she needs him.

look, you're right in that bella, in times of crisis, puts EVERYONE else before herself. but not ALL she does is for others. ALL she does is for herself, to keep edward.

but the fact that she puts everyone else's LIFE before hers, that she would die so that her loved ones might live, makes me say that she's NOT a bad person. that you can't even say that she's a selfish person. but you CAN, say that, on a day-to-day basis, she can be really self-centered.

but just that bit of selflessness in her gives her potential to be a great person. and i think she will grow into that now, being a mother and a wife. she hasn't yet, but she has become stronger, more independent, and she's starting to. it just takes time.

all in all, she's a good person, and she's getting there. is everyone happy? can we pick a new topic?