12 year old gymnasts, women swimmers who swim faster than men, throwing matches, probably abusing athletes and forcing them to train... I think it's time to ban China from the olympics until they decide to play within the spirit of the games... whatever that means

Taking mentally unstable individuals and locking them in a training facility for the most important developmental years of their life, leaving them emotionally stunted and unable to operate in the normal world once their Olympic moment is up?

Taking mentally unstable individuals and locking them in a training facility for the most important developmental years of their life, leaving them emotionally stunted and unable to operate in the normal world once their Olympic moment is up?

Here's a different take- this is perfectly ok and they shouldn't be banned.

Consider a long distance runner or cyclist- do they go flat out the entire way so they can lead the race the entire time? It's really rare to see that- instead, you see folks hanging around mid pack, drafting off competitors and working with teammates to decide when to push. The *only* thing that matters is where you are at the finish line- you can be last the entire way except for the final few meters and walk away with gold.

The objective in the Olympics is to win a medal, not to win your prelims. Throwing a match to get a better chance of making it to the medal round is just good tactics. If the sport encourages that, change the rules, don't penalize the players.

The ESPN article was better....go figure, ESPN covers sports......The Chinese team did not appeal....the others seemed to be like China always does this and never got booted before and now that we did it on tv, in front of a paying audience, at the Olympics, after China did it again we have to pay...what about two wrongs and a right or a right wrong...they did it first damnit!

MugzyBrown:12 year old gymnasts, women swimmers who swim faster than men, throwing matches, probably abusing athletes and forcing them to train... I think it's time to ban China from the olympics until they decide to play within the spirit of the games... whatever that means

North Korea needs to go first, at least one former bronze medalist has claimed he was sent to a gulag after losing a match to a South Korean competitor at the Pan-Asian games

Glockenspiel Hero:The objective in the Olympics is to win a medal, not to win your prelims. Throwing a match to get a better chance of making it to the medal round is just good tactics. If the sport encourages that, change the rules, don't penalize the players.

I agree. Which is why I think, the teams that didn't throw their matches should be disqualified. Clearly, they were acting in a way not consistent with going all out for the gold.

AngryPoet:The ESPN article was better....go figure, ESPN covers sports......The Chinese team did not appeal....the others seemed to be like China always does this and never got booted before and now that we did it on tv, in front of a paying audience, at the Olympics, after China did it again we have to pay...what about two wrongs and a right or a right wrong...they did it first damnit!

Glockenspiel Hero:The objective in the Olympics is to win a medal, not to win your prelims. Throwing a match to get a better chance of making it to the medal round is just good tactics. If the sport encourages that, change the rules, don't penalize the players.

It's right there in Law 16.6:16.6 A player shall not:16.6.3 behave in an offensive manner; or16.6.4 be guilty of misconduct not otherwise covered by the Laws of Badminton.

Glockenspiel Hero:Here's a different take- this is perfectly ok and they shouldn't be banned.

Consider a long distance runner or cyclist- do they go flat out the entire way so they can lead the race the entire time? It's really rare to see that- instead, you see folks hanging around mid pack, drafting off competitors and working with teammates to decide when to push. The *only* thing that matters is where you are at the finish line- you can be last the entire way except for the final few meters and walk away with gold.

The objective in the Olympics is to win a medal, not to win your prelims. Throwing a match to get a better chance of making it to the medal round is just good tactics. If the sport encourages that, change the rules, don't penalize the players.

My understanding is that there are rules against that sort of thing. That's why they all got tossed. They're being penalized for breaking rules not for no reason.

Dead for Tax Reasons:AngryPoet: The ESPN article was better....go figure, ESPN covers sports......The Chinese team did not appeal....the others seemed to be like China always does this and never got booted before and now that we did it on tv, in front of a paying audience, at the Olympics, after China did it again we have to pay...what about two wrongs and a right or a right wrong...they did it first damnit!

espn article

i found this article on espn. same article from the AP. was there a so much better one on espn i missed?

That was me actually being a bit snarky because the admins did not take the same said article that I submitted from ESPN...

Taking mentally unstable individuals and locking them in a training facility for the most important developmental years of their life, leaving them emotionally stunted and unable to operate in the normal world once their Olympic moment is up?

I totally agree, the us system is much better. Look at all the college football athletes who succeed after their 5 years in school

AngryPoet:Dead for Tax Reasons: AngryPoet: The ESPN article was better....go figure, ESPN covers sports......The Chinese team did not appeal....the others seemed to be like China always does this and never got booted before and now that we did it on tv, in front of a paying audience, at the Olympics, after China did it again we have to pay...what about two wrongs and a right or a right wrong...they did it first damnit!

espn article

i found this article on espn. same article from the AP. was there a so much better one on espn i missed?

That was me actually being a bit snarky because the admins did not take the same said article that I submitted from ESPN...

Glockenspiel Hero:Here's a different take- this is perfectly ok and they shouldn't be banned.

Consider a long distance runner or cyclist- do they go flat out the entire way so they can lead the race the entire time? It's really rare to see that- instead, you see folks hanging around mid pack, drafting off competitors and working with teammates to decide when to push. The *only* thing that matters is where you are at the finish line- you can be last the entire way except for the final few meters and walk away with gold.

The objective in the Olympics is to win a medal, not to win your prelims. Throwing a match to get a better chance of making it to the medal round is just good tactics. If the sport encourages that, change the rules, don't penalize the players.

+1 to all that.

The objective is to win a gold medal. The fault for this scenarios lies fully with the rule makers and how they set the tournament up. How is being tactically smart and thinking several steps ahead NOT in the Olympic spirit?

I cannot fault the athletes for trying to compete in a way that earns them gold.

Imagine if in swimming the slowest qualifier got the middle lane for the final -that would incentivize not swimming your best, and it would be a stupid rule to make.

MugzyBrown:12 year old gymnasts, women swimmers who swim faster than men, throwing matches, probably abusing athletes and forcing them to train... I think it's time to ban China from the olympics until they decide to play within the spirit of the games... whatever that means

Oh hush. Like there's a shortage of american athletes who cheated in the olympics.

Take auto racing for example. If a driver only needs to finish the race to maintain enough points to take championship, of course he wouldn't go all out and risk his car breaking down and losing the championship.

Or if a team only needs to be in top 3 to get into the finals, is it unreasonable to just keep 3rd place, and keep the energy for the final match?

jimmythefly:Glockenspiel Hero: Here's a different take- this is perfectly ok and they shouldn't be banned.

Consider a long distance runner or cyclist- do they go flat out the entire way so they can lead the race the entire time? It's really rare to see that- instead, you see folks hanging around mid pack, drafting off competitors and working with teammates to decide when to push. The *only* thing that matters is where you are at the finish line- you can be last the entire way except for the final few meters and walk away with gold.

The objective in the Olympics is to win a medal, not to win your prelims. Throwing a match to get a better chance of making it to the medal round is just good tactics. If the sport encourages that, change the rules, don't penalize the players.

+1 to all that.

The objective is to win a gold medal. The fault for this scenarios lies fully with the rule makers and how they set the tournament up. How is being tactically smart and thinking several steps ahead NOT in the Olympic spirit?

I cannot fault the athletes for trying to compete in a way that earns them gold.

Imagine if in swimming the slowest qualifier got the middle lane for the final -that would incentivize not swimming your best, and it would be a stupid rule to make.

I thought a Chinese team was tanking so that china would have a better shot at more medals. Is that ok as well?

Glockenspiel Hero:Here's a different take- this is perfectly ok and they shouldn't be banned.

Consider a long distance runner or cyclist- do they go flat out the entire way so they can lead the race the entire time? It's really rare to see that- instead, you see folks hanging around mid pack, drafting off competitors and working with teammates to decide when to push. The *only* thing that matters is where you are at the finish line- you can be last the entire way except for the final few meters and walk away with gold.

The objective in the Olympics is to win a medal, not to win your prelims. Throwing a match to get a better chance of making it to the medal round is just good tactics. If the sport encourages that, change the rules, don't penalize the players.

Apples and oranges.

What you are describing with distance runners is routinely done and doesn't not upset the competitive nature of the sport. They still have to qualify and to do so means beating your opponent. They aren't knowingly tanking, they are thinking about the whole of the event.

These players were knowingly tanking. It wasn't competitive, it wasn't entertaining and it wasn't remotely in any way, shape or form a representative example of world class sport.

The distance runners...even though they are pacing themselves are still flat out running faster than 99.9% of the world's population...good club players could have beaten the tankers given how badly they were trying out there.

Also, sport is about entertainment. Nobody is paying to see these badminton players suck that badly, watch the replays, the crowds were severely pissed off. Watching distance runners pace themselves in the prelims may not be a high quality of the finals, but it's still worth the money to the people who like to watch track and field.

Glockenspiel Hero:Here's a different take- this is perfectly ok and they shouldn't be banned.

Consider a long distance runner or cyclist- do they go flat out the entire way so they can lead the race the entire time? It's really rare to see that- instead, you see folks hanging around mid pack, drafting off competitors and working with teammates to decide when to push. The *only* thing that matters is where you are at the finish line- you can be last the entire way except for the final few meters and walk away with gold.

The objective in the Olympics is to win a medal, not to win your prelims. Throwing a match to get a better chance of making it to the medal round is just good tactics. If the sport encourages that, change the rules, don't penalize the players.

To counter your view, the cyclist analogy you use is for one "match/game". Of course there are lulls in a "game" for example hockey where you will be bored out of your mind with def/trap play. And good ones when goals are scored or big punishing body checks. That stays within that game, the good and bad.

Now the people that spent their time and money to support and watch badminton received a mockery of an event instead. Do you think all these people will have tickets and be able to get in when the matches will supposedly be good and watch the finals as well...

I agree that changing the format would be an easy fix.

The related federations did an excellent job to keep whatever integrity lingers in these modern Olympic times...

thisiszombocom:jimmythefly: Glockenspiel Hero: Here's a different take- this is perfectly ok and they shouldn't be banned.

Consider a long distance runner or cyclist- do they go flat out the entire way so they can lead the race the entire time? It's really rare to see that- instead, you see folks hanging around mid pack, drafting off competitors and working with teammates to decide when to push. The *only* thing that matters is where you are at the finish line- you can be last the entire way except for the final few meters and walk away with gold.

The objective in the Olympics is to win a medal, not to win your prelims. Throwing a match to get a better chance of making it to the medal round is just good tactics. If the sport encourages that, change the rules, don't penalize the players.

+1 to all that.

The objective is to win a gold medal. The fault for this scenarios lies fully with the rule makers and how they set the tournament up. How is being tactically smart and thinking several steps ahead NOT in the Olympic spirit?

I cannot fault the athletes for trying to compete in a way that earns them gold.

Imagine if in swimming the slowest qualifier got the middle lane for the final -that would incentivize not swimming your best, and it would be a stupid rule to make.

I thought a Chinese team was tanking so that china would have a better shot at more medals. Is that ok as well?

Yes. Not more medals, but BETTER medals.

My understanding is that there were two Chinese teams. If they intentionally lost, they had a chance to get a Gold and a Silver. If they "played competitively" They only had a shot at Gold and Bronze. I cannot condemn them for choosing to play in a way so that the second team had a shot at silver instead of bronze.

That's perfectly OK in my book.

What's f-ed up is that the tournament was set up in a way so that not playing your best (at certain strategic times) meant that down the line you would get a better finish.

Let me be clear -I don't like it that it was this way. I think there IS a thing called "sportsmanship" and that it has a place in the games. But this isn't some unforseen on-the-field anomoly (like taking advantage of an injured player or a distraction caused by a naked fan running onto the field). This was set up from the start by the structure of the thing, and the athletes got punished for using their wits to try an affect a better result for themselves.

DoBeDoBeDo:Glockenspiel Hero:The objective in the Olympics is to win a medal, not to win your prelims. Throwing a match to get a better chance of making it to the medal round is just good tactics. If the sport encourages that, change the rules, don't penalize the players.

It's right there in Law 16.6:16.6 A player shall not:16.6.3 behave in an offensive manner; or16.6.4 be guilty of misconduct not otherwise covered by the Laws of Badminton.

/Yes I looked that up//Feels dirty

Umm, I don't think that says they did anything wrong.

Were they offensive? No, unless you somehow define lousy playing as offensive.Were they guilty of misconduct? Well, seeing as it doesn't appear to be in the rules anywhere that you can't lose on purpose, suddenly claiming that they are guilty of misconduct seems rather odd. While I understand the intent of "Don't do anything bad we haven't thought of" rules (and have used them in role playing games) you'd think they'd have this sorted out for the freaking Olympics.

They found a loophole in the rules. Give them a warning perhaps and change the rules ASAP.

Coach_J:Glockenspiel Hero: Here's a different take- this is perfectly ok and they shouldn't be banned.

Consider a long distance runner or cyclist- do they go flat out the entire way so they can lead the race the entire time? It's really rare to see that- instead, you see folks hanging around mid pack, drafting off competitors and working with teammates to decide when to push. The *only* thing that matters is where you are at the finish line- you can be last the entire way except for the final few meters and walk away with gold.

The objective in the Olympics is to win a medal, not to win your prelims. Throwing a match to get a better chance of making it to the medal round is just good tactics. If the sport encourages that, change the rules, don't penalize the players.

Apples and oranges.

What you are describing with distance runners is routinely done and doesn't not upset the competitive nature of the sport. They still have to qualify and to do so means beating your opponent. They aren't knowingly tanking, they are thinking about the whole of the event.

These players were knowingly tanking. It wasn't competitive, it wasn't entertaining and it wasn't remotely in any way, shape or form a representative example of world class sport.

The distance runners...even though they are pacing themselves are still flat out running faster than 99.9% of the world's population...good club players could have beaten the tankers given how badly they were trying out there.

Also, sport is about entertainment. Nobody is paying to see these badminton players suck that badly, watch the replays, the crowds were severely pissed off. Watching distance runners pace themselves in the prelims may not be a high quality of the finals, but it's still worth the money to the people who like to watch track and field.

(Emphasis added by me)

That sounds like a direct apples-apples comparison to me. See my response above, but these athletes were very much thinking about the whole event.

How is it "not competitive" to try and do things on-field that set you up in later matches for a better chance at a medal? That sounds exactly competitive to me.

I totally agree with you that it was not entertaining, nor should it be representative of world-class sport. I wouldn't pay to see it. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but I think we're on the same page as far as that goes.

In this specific case, I can't fault the athletes. Fault is entirely with whoever set up the tournament so that there was no incentive for athletes to always do their best. Volleyball has it figured out, why doesn't badminton?

jimmythefly:My understanding is that there were two Chinese teams. If they intentionally lost, they had a chance to get a Gold and a Silver. If they "played competitively" They only had a shot at Gold and Bronze. I cannot condemn them for choosing to play in a way so that the second team had a shot at silver instead of bronze.

That's perfectly OK in my book.

But the two teams are competitors, not team mates.

This kinda annoys me about the road race event.. they're in teams, but only the individual gets the medal. So they're either teams or not.. not both.

Glockenspiel Hero:Here's a different take- this is perfectly ok and they shouldn't be banned.

The objective in the Olympics is to win a medal, not to win your prelims. Throwing a match to get a better chance of making it to the medal round is just good tactics. If the sport encourages that, change the rules, don't penalize the players.

Maybe I'm missing the point, but it seems to me that the rules explicitly forbid "not using one's best efforts to win a match" and "conducting oneself in a manner that is clearly abusive or detrimental to the sport". So the rules don't need to be changed, but just need to be inforced more.

Glockenspiel Hero:Here's a different take- this is perfectly ok and they shouldn't be banned.

Consider a long distance runner or cyclist- do they go flat out the entire way so they can lead the race the entire time? It's really rare to see that- instead, you see folks hanging around mid pack, drafting off competitors and working with teammates to decide when to push. The *only* thing that matters is where you are at the finish line- you can be last the entire way except for the final few meters and walk away with gold.

The objective in the Olympics is to win a medal, not to win your prelims. Throwing a match to get a better chance of making it to the medal round is just good tactics. If the sport encourages that, change the rules, don't penalize the players.

That was what I was thinking - to avoid this, don't incentivize the players to throw games with the tournament structure - for example if you want the round robin structure, don't bother with the seeding, just do a random draw for the knockout rounds afterwards, so there is no point engineering losses, and you might as well just continue winning to keep your form up even if you are already through with a match to spare.

So surely penalties will be handed down for soccer teams making 8 changes after securing a berth, right? And basketball teams for resting their starters in the 4th? And rowers who slow down just before the finish when they know they've locked up a place?

Coach_J:Glockenspiel Hero: Here's a different take- this is perfectly ok and they shouldn't be banned.

Consider a long distance runner or cyclist- do they go flat out the entire way so they can lead the race the entire time? It's really rare to see that- instead, you see folks hanging around mid pack, drafting off competitors and working with teammates to decide when to push. The *only* thing that matters is where you are at the finish line- you can be last the entire way except for the final few meters and walk away with gold.

The objective in the Olympics is to win a medal, not to win your prelims. Throwing a match to get a better chance of making it to the medal round is just good tactics. If the sport encourages that, change the rules, don't penalize the players.

Apples and oranges.

What you are describing with distance runners is routinely done and doesn't not upset the competitive nature of the sport. They still have to qualify and to do so means beating your opponent. They aren't knowingly tanking, they are thinking about the whole of the event.

You're missing my argument. Take the marathon- there's only one during the Olympics. There're no prelims (beyond what's needed to qualify for the Olympics), just the one race. Hanging back during the race is perfectly ok so long as you finish first.

In the case of badminton (or other sports like basketball), the "race" is a series of elimination events. All of them combined are the event, and should be considered the same as something like the marathon. Hanging back (tanking) mid level events seems to be a good strategy, so why not use it? Blame the people who run the sport, not the players.

Also, sport is about entertainment. Nobody is paying to see these badminton players suck that badly, watch the replays, the crowds were severely pissed off. Watching distance runners pace themselves in the prelims may not be a high quality of the finals, but it's still worth the money to the people who like to watch track and field.

MugzyBrown:I think it's a little different for individual athletes to cheat as opposed to a state-run system of cheating and abuse

Sure. The Americans who cheated chose to cheat of their own volition. If your point is that their government is even more soulless and mercenary than our own, well, ok. That's really gonna suck in about twenty years.

jimmythefly:Yeah, I'm with you on that. They are supposed to be individual competitors. It still works though for unrelated teams.

A: throw matches and our two teams have a shot at gold and silverB: compete fully, and our two teams have a shot at gold and bronze

Even if they were teams from two different countries, option A looks better than B, doesn't it?

But again, was this unforseen by the officials? I thought the article said this kind of thing had been going on in big badminton tournaments for a while now? Sa change the farking rules, dummies!

I can't see how suddenly having the referees start making judgement calls on who is trying hard enough is a good thing at all.

If you watch the match, there's no judgment call needed...they were literally just standing there and hitting bad shots. They were warned at least twice, and continued to do so, anyway. From what I understand, people getting tickets are getting them by lottery, so you don't get to choose what you get to see. But you should at least know that you are paying to watch someone play a game. Doesn't everyone hate diving? Diving gains players an advantage, and it's the judgment call of the official to call it. Most of sports involves judgment calls. These players made their sport look bad, and suffered the consequences.