Quote Discussion, Current quote: “Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm.”
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axl
You need your pink glasses removed, dude. :D
If WITH the Hell idea, we’re still SO BAD, imagine what would’ve be WITHOUT…
Similarly, let’s just abolish JAILS and JUSTICE…

The concept of good and evil only exists because humanity drew a line for it. If everyone walked around naked, rape would probably become near nonexistent, not that there wouldn’t be consequences for such. If the forbidden fruit hadn’t been forbidden, Adam and Eve would probably have never touched it. Bad people are bad because that’s what society makes them out to be; if killing wasn’t a crime, murderers would just be your natural everyday human beings. Its a twisted, warped view, but that’s what kind of world humanity has made it to be. Fact is, its ideas like hell that makes us what we really are; scared, sniveling, pathetic bags of meat that want to cling onto life like cockroaches and never let go. To do everything, to dream, to push our limits, to thrive in the stupidity that we’ve created. If death meant something better to everyone, we wouldn’t fear it, we wouldn’t have any need to push the limitations of our imaginations, hence, we wouldn’t ever need to create the horrors that currently exist. Then again, that’s just evolution I suppose.. Well, that’s all just my view on things, make sense of it if you can. Or don’t, not like it really matters either way.

“Light shows who we are by the actions we take, but only in darkness can we find what we truly are.” – Just made up XD

Alita
Blame it on Christianity for promoting eternal punishment even for momentary slips (“I slipped once already, I’m damned, so why not live a life of sin?”) alongside eternal forgiveness disregarding actions (“if you believe in J., all your sins don’t count”, as in “go kill another infidel, you still remain a faithful BELIEVER”).
Jokes may be jokes, but that’s where the modern human gets his idea of HELL. :DDD
(Well, I as a Jew, believe in rather “it’s never too late to change back”. :DDD )NOTE:
I’m not a big expert on Christianity – so CONTRADICT me, I’m eager for it!

Alita
Blame it on Christianity for promoting eternal punishment even for momentary slips (“I slipped once already, I’m damned, so why not live a life of sin?”) alongside eternal forgiveness disregarding actions (“if you believe in J., all your sins don’t count”, as in “go kill another infidel, you still remain a faithful BELIEVER”).
Jokes may be jokes, but that’s where the modern human gets his idea of HELL. :DDD
(Well, I as a Jew, believe in rather “it’s never too late to change back”. :DDD )NOTE:
I’m not a big expert on Christianity – so CONTRADICT me, I’m eager for it!

I’m no expert in Christianity either, just another passing observer of the human species giving my two cents.

Humans absolutely LOVE what they can’t have, I’m no exception, especially if it makes my life easier, or better yet, it becomes something I can hide behind it. I will admit there is a possibility of there being a god of some sort out there with a grand master plan, but I will also admit there is a possibility that the very first signs of such religions only came about because someone wanted to play a practical joke on somebody. Though.. it is far more likely that it was a bid for power if that were the case rather than a joke. There is also the possibility that somewhere in there, it was created to simply inspire fear, to feel fear. Who doesn’t love a good scare, yeah? That’s also human nature. Or maybe it was an act by humans, to control humans, not to gain power, but to save humanity from something someone saw further down the line. And maybe it all went wrong somewhere along the way….. y’know, I do believe I’ve gotten off topic.. or maybe I was never on it.

“You never had control, you only thought you had it! An illusion, tabibu juhu! And what do you control – for sure, huh? The volume on your stereo? The air conditioning in your car? What else? WHATELSE?” – Dr. Ethan Powell

@JohnnyBeGood
You’re not to just do good because of Hell, you do good because you love to do good.

@Alita
The fact of the matter is being punctured by thorns are painful. Knowing about what’s lovely and what’s not lovely, and that the world is made out of laws is important. The truth is important.
The world is not perfect and the better we separate those who want it to be unperfect from those who want it to be the better. If there were no discipline big things can’t be achieved, if there were no rules sin could not be exposed.
I understand what you’re saying that rules made the society treat others badly, I also disagree with too many rules. It only makes people breaking it more and more, we have enough rules already. But then without rules there would be no sin and without sin there would be no forgiveness, private property is important because your body is private property. Rights are important even though it means making villain of people who violate rights, because without private property, without rights, you’re just inclinations without a body. You wouldn’t be a living being. From there the law develops until the way it is now.
THe attitude is not to destroy all rules and live in ignorance, but to figure out the purest and the most friendly form out of all of those mistakes we’ve made.

Edit: And to try your best to forgive people as we all need forgiveness. Jesus put in hell people who won’t forgive people because its just the place where they belong. I think you could feel me on this that without forgiveness the world of laws would not work, and I say that the world without declared laws are the world of darkness where people are just uninformed, and the world without laws doesn’t exist.

@JohnnyBeGood
You’re not to just do good because of Hell, you do good because you love to do good.

I take it you believe moral actions come from intentions instead, of actions, then. That may be correct, but in a world coated in sin, will not the “Good” be smothered in it and not given a chance to show itself? Even barring that, I doubt a deity owning such a world will be too pleased to see it in such a dilapidated state of affairs.

I take it you believe moral actions come from intentions instead, of actions, then. That may be correct, but in a world coated in sin, will not the “Good” be smothered in it and not given a chance to show itself? Even barring that, I doubt a deity owning such a world will be too pleased to see it in such a dilapidated state of affairs.

Good people got reported on the news, you want me to cite? And the world now is not in complete stop, there must be some good pertaining it.
If the deity has his own rules that he prioritize more than the world, what could I do about it?

Good people got reported on the news, you want me to cite? And the world now is not in complete stop, there must be some good pertaining it.
If the deity has his own rules that he prioritize more than the world, what could I do about it?

You forget that most people do believe in a karmic system in some manner. Morally bad things begeting punishments, so on. The life we live in cannot be applied to the sinful world scenario I gave, as people do believe in hell and karmic moralities here. But look into ages of barbarism, and you will find little you would classify as “Good”, and merely the strong taking from the weak openly, without regret, something I think you would calssify as “Bad” and pretty much the sinful world idea I gave. Some “Good” as you say, does exist in this world. In the scenario I gave, it would be muted by sin, I believe. And you can’t. Because this deity, quite frankly, is above you and isn’t likely to care, if he places these rules above the world, whether you are even capable of contacting it.

@Ponkiny
I believe in karma, I’m a Christian. But there’s forgiveness, and I see the world is inventing new and exciting things. INtellectual properties… these are miracles and I praise God for it.
Edit: Oh I see, so that’s what you’re saying… I’m sorry.

axl
You need your pink glasses removed, dude. :D
If WITH the Hell idea, we’re still SO BAD, imagine what would’ve be WITHOUT…
Similarly, let’s just abolish JAILS and JUSTICE…

The concept of good and evil only exists because humanity drew a line for it. If everyone walked around naked, rape would probably become near nonexistent, not that there wouldn’t be consequences for such. If the forbidden fruit hadn’t been forbidden, Adam and Eve would probably have never touched it. Bad people are bad because that’s what society makes them out to be; if killing wasn’t a crime, murderers would just be your natural everyday human beings. Its a twisted, warped view, but that’s what kind of world humanity has made it to be. Fact is, its ideas like hell that makes us what we really are; scared, sniveling, pathetic bags of meat that want to cling onto life like cockroaches and never let go. To do everything, to dream, to push our limits, to thrive in the stupidity that we’ve created. If death meant something better to everyone, we wouldn’t fear it, we wouldn’t have any need to push the limitations of our imaginations, hence, we wouldn’t ever need to create the horrors that currently exist. Then again, that’s just evolution I suppose.. Well, that’s all just my view on things, make sense of it if you can. Or don’t, not like it really matters either way.

“Light shows who we are by the actions we take, but only in darkness can we find what we truly are.” – Just made up XD

P.S. Now in edited 2D >.>

So, you are saiyng people know their deeds to be wrong, and they do it EXACTLY because it is wrong?

Sounds like a rather childish mentality, althought accurate. Accurate, but incomplete. I think there is a lot more as for why people sim/commit crimes. In the case of rape for a example. Rape isnt about sexual pleasure-Well, not about it EXCLUSEVLY-Because otherwise, married people, for a example, wouldnt rape. I think rape, in most cases, have a lot more with proving your own superiority when in comparisson to the victin and/or the rest of the world. I mean, when you take over the victin body without its consent that way, you are kinda proving to yourself the victin belongs to you.

I could give more examples, but if was I to tell why people commit each specific crime, I would type for hours…

I’ll make it even shorter:
The moment EVERYONE agrees with the simple (BIBLICAL!) Truth: “each human life is PRICELESS”, we’ll get rid of like 99% of crimes and 100% of wars.
Until then…

Technically not, if you include non-violent crimes, such as theft and stuff.

But I agree with you. A big problem with humans is that they will do anything to protect their own lives, but dont seem to care a lot about the lives of others… Fact is, humans have the natural tendence of considering theirselves superior to every other being. This foolish pride is what lead to things such as slavedery, xenophobia, tyranny etc…

@JohnnyBeGood
You’re not to just do good because of Hell, you do good because you love to do good.

I take it you believe moral actions come from intentions instead, of actions, then. That may be correct, but in a world coated in sin, will not the “Good” be smothered in it and not given a chance to show itself? Even barring that, I doubt a deity owning such a world will be too pleased to see it in such a dilapidated state of affairs.

I’ll make it even shorter:
The moment EVERYONE agrees with the simple (BIBLICAL!) Truth: “each human life is PRICELESS”, we’ll get rid of like 99% of crimes and 100% of wars.
Until then…

What do you see as so good in a human life that makes it so precious?

As I said: Wouldnt you do anything in your reach to protect your own life and integrity if you were in danger? Then why in the hell dont you apply that logic to everyone else? What makes you so superior to the rest of the universe? Please, clarify…

@Ponkiny
I believe in karma, I’m a Christian. But there’s forgiveness, and I see the world is inventing new and exciting things. INtellectual properties… these are miracles and I praise God for it.

Pikku, I ask not what you believe, but why you believe. Why do you attribute “New and exciting things” to God, and not to something else?

Edit to your edit: No worries.

Do you want my opinion on it?

Thanks God there were people intelligent enought to invent all the technological gadgets we have today…

Ok, this is already assuming a deity existance, I know, but this is not the point. The point is: I believe God wont solve our problems. He will give us the ability to solve our problems.Just that simple…

Oh I credit inventions to their authors, I believe God is the source of Lovely existence.
Wait, I want to add something, God may have left the world increasingly decaying. But out of particular events he picked and choose things that He Love to safe. And later, things that are not lovely would be gone, and new world will come when everything is Lovely.

But why do you attribute the creation of Lovely Existance to God in the first place, and not another thing? Is there proof that you may give me that it is, without a doubt, your God who made this world, alone?

So, you are saiyng people know their deeds to be wrong, and they do it EXACTLY because it is wrong?

No, I believe he means that if someone does an “Evil” act with good intentions, they are not to blame, except possibly for being stupid. If they do an act with impure intentions (Selfishness, so on.), whatever the results of that act, it is evil.

I have to disagree with that quote here… Mostly, people who do bad things in name of religion would be doing bad things anyway. They are just using religion as a mean to morally justify thei actions…

So why is religion a particularly “Bad” thing to justify with? Every tries to morally justify anything they do, if they’re a moralist. No one ever thinks that they’re the bad guy.

As I said: Wouldnt you do anything in your reach to protect your own life and integrity if you were in danger? Then why in the hell dont you apply that logic to everyone else? What makes you so superior to the rest of the universe? Please, clarify…

Because my life is everything to me, and worth the total sum of everything else in the universe to me, but a different value to anyone else. Without my own life, I cannot have others. I have nothing without my life. So, my life is a supreme priority to me, but not so important to anyone else. To give an example, if a rich man were to gain a potato, I doubt he’d be all that interested. To a starving man, he would be incredibly interested. In this scenario, I am the starving man.

Ok, this is already assuming a deity existance, I know, but this is not the point.

I disagree, it is exactly the point. Without proof that such a deity even exists or has done this, you have no motive to attribute him this act. That’s like paying a butcher for the baker’s work, or when a crime is commited you just drag some random person of the street and blame it on them.

axl
Thanks for supporting my view. :D
Actually, when you think deeper, one’s LIFE isn’t only his biological functioning, but also the environment, emotions, belongings etc.
Like YOU said, if everyone considered EVERYONE’s “everything” as his/her OWN, than no one would ever “take what it’s not his/her”, cause it would work in reverse.
Btw, in case you don’t know (I’m pretty sure), a famous Jewish saying is: “Don’t do to another, what you don’t want to be done to you”.
If people worldwide truly did so, we wouldn’t have ANY crimes at all.
The problem is, people do “good” for themselves, pretty often totally disregarding the “good” of others, which more than often means HARMING them…
But like I said, the easiest (or maybe the only) way to achieve it – is to consider ANY human life PRICELESS, thus equating it with YOURS.
The rest is the direct result of this.

I believe God wont solve our problems. He will give us the ability to solve our problems.Just that simple…

I have similar stance but I tend to say that there are times when God directly interferes to solve some problems, such as lucky coincidences when my aunt’s town was in a storm, some other people’s roofs were taken by the wind but hers were kept on, even though some parts of it were taken away as well, but mostly they’re on.

But why do you attribute the creation of Lovely Existance to God in the first place, and not another thing? Is there proof that you may give me that it is, without a doubt, your God who made this world, alone?

So, you are saiyng people know their deeds to be wrong, and they do it EXACTLY because it is wrong?

No, I believe he means that if someone does an “Evil” act with good intentions, they are not to blame, except possibly for being stupid. If they do an act with impure intentions (Selfishness, so on.), whatever the results of that act, it is evil.

I have to disagree with that quote here… Mostly, people who do bad things in name of religion would be doing bad things anyway. They are just using religion as a mean to morally justify thei actions…

So why is religion a particularly “Bad” thing to justify with? Every tries to morally justify anything they do, if they’re a moralist. No one ever thinks that they’re the bad guy.

As I said: Wouldnt you do anything in your reach to protect your own life and integrity if you were in danger? Then why in the hell dont you apply that logic to everyone else? What makes you so superior to the rest of the universe? Please, clarify…

Because my life is everything to me, and worth the total sum of everything else in the universe to me, but a different value to anyone else. Without my own life, I cannot have others. I have nothing without my life. So, my life is a supreme priority to me, but not so important to anyone else. To give an example, if a rich man were to gain a potato, I doubt he’d be all that interested. To a starving man, he would be incredibly interested. In this scenario, I am the starving man.

I never said religion was a particularly bad justificative. Althought, once you asked, it might be bad BECAUSE, historically speaking, it is the most effective. Most people, if they see X as the will of a deity, will automatically consider it right, without the need of much more convincing. Sure, such people probably arent as intelligent as you and I, and both of us could point loads of plot holes in these kinds of arguments. But, as I said, WE can: THEY, cant.

As for the value of human life: Maybe, but it doesnt matter how much the life of someone else would mean to you. It doesnt matter if this one life means crap for you, as what matters, is how much his life means, TO HIM. HE will be the one who will be losing the life, a life that belongs to HIM, therefore why should one use the value YOU give to his life, what YOU will be losing upon his death, as a basis of comparisson whether you should or should not save him? If you want my opinion on it, that seems like a serious case of lack of empathy here…

Like YOU said, if everyone considered EVERYONE’s “everything” as his/her OWN, than no one would ever “take what it’s not his/her”, cause it would work in reverse.

Btw, in case you don’t know (I’m pretty sure), a famous Jewish saying is: “Don’t do to another, what you don’t want to be done to you”.

The problem is, people do “good” for themselves-

No. To me, anothers life is a different value to me. My life is a different value to them. Prices are not universal, and one thing sells for more or less than another.

And just because it is said does not make it true. You may be nice all your life and end up trodden into the dirt, felled by your own disliking for resistance.

Well, there is hardly any reason to hurt yourself, is there now? Everyone does good for themselves, deep in their mnids. It pleasures them. It saves them from karmic resurgence. If you didn’t enjoy doing good, in any way at all, I don’t think you’d do it.

I have similar stance but I tend to say that there are times when God directly interferes to solve some problems, such as lucky coincidences when my aunt’s town was in a storm, some other people’s roofs were taken by the wind but hers were kept on, even though some parts of it were taken away as well, but mostly they’re on.

But why attribute this to god? Why not aerodynamics, structural integrity, or just the circumstances? Why a deity who’s existance is uncertain, that you have no proof of?

I never said religion was a particularly bad justificative. Althought, once you asked, it might be bad BECAUSE, historically speaking, it is the most effective. Most people, if they see X as the will of a deity, will automatically consider it right, without the need of much more convincing. Sure, such people probably arent as intelligent as you and I, and both of us could point loads of plot holes in these kinds of arguments. But, as I said, WE can: THEY, cant.

As for the value of human life: Maybe, but it doesnt matter how much the life of someone else would mean to you. It doesnt matter if this one life means crap for you, as what matters, is how much his life means, TO HIM. HE will be the one who will be losing the life, a life that belongs to HIM, therefore why should one use the value YOU give to his life, as a basis of comparisson whether you should or should not save him? If you want my opinion on it, that seems like a serious case of lack of empathy here…

You seemed to be implicating it. And so you accept that this deity, if it’s will is not always “Right” is therefore fallible? And “If you talk sense to a fool, he will call you foolish” -Euripides, so poking wholes in their arguments is pointless at best.

But what motive would I have for caring what happens to him or her? You are confusing the price with the value, for the price to willingly sell my life is incredibly high, but the price for me to buy (Take.) another’s, not so much. You say this is about “Compassion and empathy”, basic human social instincts. You place such a huge value on these instincts. It is not intelligent to assign such importance to a mere instinct. And you will doubtless go on about my lack of empathy soon, but as I have said, aimless empathy is not intelligent.

But why do you attribute the creation of Lovely Existance to God in the first place, and not another thing? Is there proof that you may give me that it is, without a doubt, your God who made this world, alone?

Take a look at mysterious fields in the universe, where do they come from. How come these rules are there? Then God would be defined as the ultimate source of rules that kept the world together. And I’ve been told that life on earth is unique in the universe millions of years away surrounding us. These things are beautiful praise the Lord.
Another question is how come we are living beings? if we made robo bacterias, would they recognize us?
I say our life itself is prove that there are living beings. The world is fractal?

And to say that lovely things ultimately came from some non integrated source must be wrong, because they are all integrated. The concept of time ponkiny? In order to be lovely everything must follow a discipline, if the law was wrong then its not lovely. How would I define it as wrong? If its existence caused others to stop edit: stop forever (sorry).

^ Please give me some quotes or something. The only mentions of the words “Is now” were made by you and Sleepallnight, so I don’t know what part of my statements you address.

Take a look at mysterious fields in the universe, where do they come from. How come these rules are there? Then God would be defined as the ultimate source of rules that kept the world together. And I’ve been told that life on earth is unique in the universe millions of years away surrounding us. These things are beautiful praise the Lord.
Another question is how come we are living beings? if we made robo bacterias, would they recognize us?
I say our life itself is prove that there are living beings. The world is fractal?

And to say that lovely things ultimately came from some non integrated source must be wrong, because they are all integrated. The concept of time ponkiny? In order to be lovely everything must follow a discipline, if the law was wrong then its not lovely. How would I define it as wrong? If its existence caused others to stop.

So, you hear someone speaking a gospel and decide that is the truth? The world exists, as do physics, but why attribute it to something you don’t even know exists? Why this one thing? Stop giving me things you say god made, and give me proof that he actually made them first. I have no idea where any of this came from or why it is about, because I have no proof to contrary. You just seemed to have attributed it to some chosen idea with no logical basis, just because it was there. All you have given me is proof that things exist, not of who made them.

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