Monday, March 3, 2008

Just finished reading Orrin Woodward's blog entry "IBO Legal Defence Fund" & all the comments relating to it. What a master he is. Master manipulator, that is. I am having a hard time believing that people continue to follow this man. I suspect he continues to rake in piles of money from the tools and functions that have not stopped. Could it really be that he is not willing to dip into his own bank account when all he has to do is ask and he can use everyone else's money? Most of whom were/are non-profitable? How can they keep buying into his BS? What audacity! He manipulates them with guilt while professing humbleness fronted with Christian principles! He started the mess he's in, involved them all in it and IMO he's not liking the consequences of that very much at all. I hope he's asking all the kingpins who decided to join him in the last few months to contribute to his cause as well. I feel so sorry for those people blinded by his hype. I don't think it will change until they have some sort of epiphany and knock him off the pedestal they've placed him on. How in the heck does that man sleep at night?

34 comments:

Tex
said...

I agree with everything you said.

Orrin "Rosie Ruiz" Woodward writes long posts on his blog and people worship him like they do Barack Obama. They are both all hat, no cattle, but there will alsways be a subset who fall for the empty suit. We're just lucky to have the internet, so people can extract their heads from their butts faster than previous generations of lying cowardly "kingpins".

I think he is sinking fast. He sleeps well at night because he has no conscience.

Orrin doesn't solely own the Team business and isn't able to just take the money that comes from functions and tool sales. Team is a company and has expenses (payroll, cost to run functions, wholesale cost of tools, etc.). The money that comes in from functions and tool sales goes to pay those expenses and all remaining money goes into a profit sharing pool. All profit sharing eligible people (Turbo 12 and above) then split that money according to their results meaning a Turbo 12 makes less than a Turbo 50 etc.

Orrin doesn't get paid based on his entire tens of thousands of member but on his "personal" group just like everyone else.

Don't try to talk about things you do not know anything about as it makes you look very foolish.

We do not follow Orrin blindly as you think we do. We follow him because he is a man of character that has a vision we want to be a part of. If you look at history people tend to follow the leaders that have a vision, for example look at Churchill and Lincoln's lives.

You didn't answer the questions. I'm not talking about his begging for money for his lawyers, I'm talking about the tool scam profit. He should have plenty of that lying around (or may have to sell a house or two) to pay the bill. Where is he putting his skin in the game? There are folks pleading with him that they're flat broke (many BECAUSE of the tool scam), yet he has no problem with accepting their money. They are even talking about having their own garage sales, not eating out, etc., to help a guy who broke rules for over 6 years, wanted to break more on his way out, then turned around and caused massive PR damage when he submitted the CA lawsuit.

By the way, the money is for him. The rules he is complaining about are normal in many other businesses. He simply got you all "fired up" by trying to link his misbehavior to the Founding Fathers, etc., but what he's doing has NOTHING to do with ANY of the stories he attempts to attach himself to. You got scammed by one of the many tool scammers. Orrin and some others are GONE, now we have to work on the rest of them.

“If you look at history people tend to follow the leaders that have a vision, for example look at Churchill and Lincoln's lives.”

I have looked at Churchill’s and Lincoln’s lives and their leadership styles. Add Ghandi, Martin Luther King Jr. I agree they were strong leaders. I have also looked at history to see that people also tended to follow other strong leaders such as Stalin, Hitler, Idi Amin, Suddam Hussein, etc. I’ve named four in both sets to be fair. The list is quite lengthy in both sets. Those listed will suffice. The followers were loyal to both kinds of leaders. The followers defended both kinds of leaders. The followers edified both kinds of leaders. The followers enacted their leaders’ wishes. So how does each set differ? Both sets of leaders had visions of immense magnitude. One set changed things/events/history for the better beyond their borders and became legendary. The other set changed things/events/history but their visions were not sustained. Some followers of the second set remain active today but mostly they were or are being ignored. Hardly anyone pays attention to them. The first set was encouraged and continue to be praised and appreciated; the second set was stopped and continue to be viewed with disdain. Both sets of leaders were manipulators. The difference? The first set used positive influence and did not resort to emotional/psychological abuse. The second set used negative influence and only resorted to physical/emotional/psychological abuse to maintain absolute control over their followers.

Before you leap to the conclusion that I am comparing Orrin Woodward et al to the second set of leaders, think again. Orrin Woodward may be a big kahuna in your little corner of the world but in the global scheme of things, he is really small potatoes. Yes, even if he and all of you go to “a million and beyond”. I am also not comparing him to the first set of leaders for the same reason. HE compares himself to the first set and HE has convinced his followers he is of the same caliber.

I am sure you have read every book on your recommended list. Have you expanded that knowledge base beyond what is “recommended”? If not, why not? Did you buy into “garbage in, garbage out”? Are you able to consider that what you are being steered away from may in fact be a good place to go look? I suggest you google “how to recognize a manipulator”. That’s a start. I’m not suggesting this to be cheeky. I’m suggesting this as the first step of awareness. Your journey is your own and I do not have any delusions that I am able to influence you in one direction or another. I am suggesting that you tap into your own inner resources, take a step forward into independent thinking, then take another step back and see if you can be objective. If you can’t yet, it’s okay.

I’ve been where you are. I know Orrin isn’t necessarily asking for money for himself alone. I know he has expenses and overhead. I know he doesn’t rake in all the money generated from his downline TEAM members. I am cognizant of the fact that he has raked in a lot of cash ever since he went “independent” of Dexter. I know he has looked after his own financial interests over the last number of years. Before he was terminated, he professed himself to be a very successful Quixtar IBO with a lavish lifestyle. Well, maybe now he needs to sell off some of his assets to take care of the mess he got himself and others into. Just like he suggested to the IBOs below platinum “if you can’t afford the BSMs, disconnect your cable.” Did he really think he could take on Alticor/Quixtar/IBOAI and win outright with no retaliation whatsoever? Some long term vision. That’s like a mouse putting up its dukes against an elephant and shouting “David won against Goliath and I am David!” That little stone the mouse can hurl will really do a lot of damage to the elephant. That’s called delusion.

“Don't try to talk about things you do not know anything about as it makes you look very foolish.”

Are you sure you know what you are talking about? Or are you in the cheering section of the mouse? By the way, I am aware that elephants are supposed to be afraid of mice. That’s a myth.

"Alticor Global Communications Conference Written by IBOFightBack Tuesday, 04 March 2008 Two weeks ago I received a somewhat surprising email from Alticor inviting me to participate as a guest panellist for a "blogging session" at a larger conference they are hosting for their Global Communications Personnel. Given the previous week I'd been "outed" by a well known Amway/Quixtar critic, the decision to accept the invitation was relatively easy.

I've still received no details on the format of the panel except that it will for around 2 hours and that the conference is in Prague, Czech Republic. Being naturally curious about who else may be attending I've searched around the lairs of "the usual suspects" and discovered that the somewhat notorious "Tex" has accepted an invitation. Tex being Tex he bragged of his invitation on a "Tex dedicated" blog being run by occasional IBO and professional comedian, Dave Robison, host of www.ontheroadwithdave.com. Dave too has admitted he has accepted an invitation. I'm aware of one other person who has apparently accepted an invitation, however since to the best of my knowledge they haven't made this public.

It's certainly an interesting invitee list, don't you think? We know what Tex will want to talk about, there's no doubt there. Dave Robison has had some great suggestions over the years on how Amway/Quixtar could better utilise the internet, I'm looking forward to meeting him. I'm very curious as to why certain folk were invited. As we get closer to the date I'll hopefully have more information to share. In the meantime I'd appreciate my fellow netizens input on the matter and any topics/issues they might be interested in me raising. I'm not even sure if the format will allow that possibility, but can't hurt to ask!

If anyone else has been invited and chosen to refuse/accept, I'd love to hear from you. I've been to Prague before, it's a beautiful city, for those coming perhaps we can check out some sites and have a drink or two before or after the panel. (Yes Tex, that offer stands for you too!)"

As if ibofb is somehow superior to me, and would stoop as low as drinking with someone who thinks business partners and teammates should be honest with one another. Also, all I did was announce I was invited, and didn't "brag" any more than the above post brags. In fact, I also asked for input from others to bring to the conference. What hubris! What a jerk!

So here's a legit question for all you readers: why do you think Amway prohibits disclosure of the money making opportunity of buying and selling tools? Tex, what do you think?

First of all, one has to consider the timeframe the various comments were made. For instance, in 1983, Rich DeVos, co-founder of Amway, was very much against the MA$$IVE profits he knew were being made via tools. Just google "DeVos Directly Speaking" and you can listen to one of the recordings made, and read a transcript of the other. This was obviously prior to the internet and this knowledge being commonly known. My former Diamond told me a few months ago he got involved in the early/mid 80's and was instructed to destroy any of these tapes they came across, so the number of people who knew this information was quite limited until the internet "arrived", in the mid to late 90's.

When Andy made the video in around 2002, TIF was trying to pay ALL IBO's a tool profit, creating an illegal pyramid, as there are no outside customers for the tools.

Fast forward to a few weeks ago, when Ron Mitchell, Quixtar executive/manager, told me on the telephone they considered the tools to be "free enterprise in action."

The rules clearly state money is made on tools, just not the amount. This is the key question, even though Ron Mitchell, the Quixtar employee mentioned below, disagreed with me while on the telephone with me recently on this critical point.

I think what A/Q decided to do was distance themselves from the scam and throw the lying cowardly "kingpins" (LCK's)under the bus at the same time.

However, I am not sure if the latter is intentional. An analogy would be falling from a cliff. The result is the same if you slipped and fell or someone pushed you off...splat. Therefore, whether the move was intentional or a byproduct of backing away, the result is the same, so the result is much more important than the motivation behind it, as it is in the case of the cliff mishap.

In conclusion, I think Amway was intimidated in 1983 and decided to back down, and now that more facts regarding the tool scam are becoming better known, it puts the LCK's in a very bad position, because they have not only been ripping off their IBO's, but have been doing it for decades. The LCK's COULD have reduced prices to make less profit for themselves and allow their IBO's to be in a net profit situation at lower PV levels, but chose the greed side. They are now paying for that decision.

Above paragraph should read, "The rules clearly state money is made on tools, just not the amount. This is the key question, even though Ron Mitchell, the Quixtar employee mentioned above, disagreed with me while on the telephone with me recently on this critical point."

The rule should be changed to apply to only IBO's above a certain level (for example, Platinum) or have ever attained that level. This would ensure huge groups don't break off, yet allow those who would have minimal impact on the overall A/Q business to leave.

Here's what ibofb said about my idea, "Surfing around the place I came across an interesting suggestion, from of all people, Tex! His idea is that the no-compete kicks in at certain levels, eg platinum, perhaps with a sliding scale of time depending on the level achieved.

Has weaknesses, but not a bad an idea. Let's face it, when Joe Blow 3%-er decides to quit and go do BetterThanAmway2008!, Amway doesn't sue him, or probably even notice."

Again, the hubris of this jerk is so transparent. He says the idea has weaknesses, but can't seem to actually list them. While true A/Q probably would notice, and wouldn't sue if they did notice (if you think there are a lot of lawsuits now, imagine how many there would be in this scenario!), the rule change would look far more fair and legally defendable. But ibofb is still a hubris filled jerk.

Did you sober up or something? You are shockingly lucid on some of those things.

Not that I couldn't nit-pick them, as accused, but I tend to only do that when you are so out there it really doesn't matter.

PS - don't forget to tell anonymous that the 'profit sharing program' he's crowing about is no different than any other tool scam. Orrin's just good at calling it something different. Seems a 'profit sharing system' that was fair would include everyone that paid into the system...not just people who convinced others to pay into it. That sorta sounds like an illegal pyramid, doesn't it?

Here's the lame response to my response regarding the "barrister's" tool scam post. My response will be after each of several errors below: The link to the site is: http://barristerquixtarlawsuit.blogspot.com/

In an earlier post, I pointed out that Amway slams any tool company that tries to be transparent about the income opportunity associated with the buying and selling of tools. ---- As I said, this has either intentionally or unintentionally put the squeeze on the scammers, a good thing.

Tool companies are not allowed to disclose how much one can earn from buying and selling tools. ---- As I said, this is a good thing in the big picture.

Also, only a small percentage of people are even allowed to KNOW about the income opportunities of buying and selling materials. ---- This alleged letter (and I assume it is true, by the way), was written in 2002. There are MANY more facts available regarding the tool scam, so this CANNOT be the current A/Q policy. PLUS, the rules clearly state money is made on tools. I hope "Barrister" isn't a real lawyer, his kids must be very skinny.

Tex is a snake. ---- This "snake" just swallowed YOU, you rat.

First of all, his comments below make no sense. ---- Only because you're an idiot.

You'll see references to a talk made 25 years ago and something about walking away and slipping versus being pushed off a cliff.... What on earth is he talking about!? ---- Can't you read? The talk 25 years ago describes conditions still present today, and I was making an analogy between an intentional action, and an action that was not intentional but had a similar outcome.

The bottom line is simple: Tex and others lead the charge in disparaging tool companies for not talking about tool profits. ---- That's because the tool scammers are liars and cowards.

Yet the tool companies CAN'T talk about tool income, or else they get threatened with termination (see paragraph 8). ---- That was the lying cowardly "kingpins" clue to clean up their act and reduce tool prices. They didn't do this, but are now suffering the natural consequences of being lying cowards.

Instead of acknowledging the catch-22, Tex defends Amway's decision to silence the tool companies while at the same time calling the tool companies "lying cowards" because of their silence. ---- There is no catch 22, there are tool scammers and a company who must fix a problem and try not to expose themselves to the obvious legal issue of speaking out a problem 25 years ago and not taking the action they said they would. A/Q is no angel in this mess, but the tool scammers are the ones who actively scammed their downline "teammates" and "business partners."

The most interesting piece of Tex's comment is when he defends Amway's decision to gag the tool companies from disclosing the tool income. ---- Interesting to a stupid mind, perhaps. Insightful to those with even average intelligence.

He states, "Andy made the video in around 2002, TIF was trying to pay ALL IBO's a tool profit, creating an illegal pyramid, as there are no outside customers for the tools." AMAZING! Tex basically admits that Amway is an illegal pyramid scheme. ---- No, I'm saying the tool payout plan with TIF was an illegal pyramid. Are you REALLY this stupid?

Here, Tex acknowledges that outside customers are needed to have a legitimate business. Tex, how much volume needs to come from outside sales to avoid being a pyramid scheme? Does 3.4% suffice? ---- How much emphasis did TEAM put on retailing? I doubt it was 0.034%, let alone 3.4%. In fact, I was taught by my upline Platinum how to falsify the site to show retail volume when none may have existed.

Second, Tex mentions that the tool companies could have lowered their prices to make IBOs more profitable. Now there's a novel idea! Lowering prices for more profitability. Perhaps Amway should take heed of the oracle's advice. ---- They should for some products. How come it's good advice for A/Q but not for the lying cowardly "kingpins?"

Tex's reply to my last article (abridged): First of all, one has to consider the timeframe the various comments weremade. For instance, in 1983, Rich DeVos, co-founder of Amway, was very much against the MA$$IVE profits he knew were being made via tools. . . .When Andymade the video in around 2002, TIF was trying to pay ALL IBO's a tool profit, creating an illegal pyramid, as there are no outsidecustomers for the tools. . . .I think what A/Q decided to do was distance themselves from the scam and throw the lying cowardly "kingpins" (LCK's)under the bus at the same time. However, I am not sure if the latter is intentional. An analogy would be falling from a cliff (WHAT???). ---- Explained above, you flaming idiot.

The result is the same if you slipped and fell or someone pushed you off (YOU'RE LOSING ME HERE, TEX)...splat. ---- Only because you're stupid.

Therefore, whether the move was intentional or a byproduct of backing away (GOING), the result is the same(GOING), so the result is much more important than the motivation behind it (GONE), as it is in the case of the cliff mishap. ---- Going, going, gone, as in your ability to handle a simple analogy.

The LCK's COULD have reduced prices to make less profit for themselves and allow their IBO's to be in a net profit situation at lower PV levels, but chose the greed side ---- Notice there is no real response to this, typical for those who support lying cowardly tool scammers.

(I GUESS AMWAY COULDN'T REDUCE THEIR PRICES TO HELP IBO'S RETAIL PRODUCTS. THEY WERE HAPPY WITH THEIR STAGNANT NUMBERS AND HIGH CHURN RATE). They are now paying for that decision (SURE). ---- A/Q has made several price reductions in the UK (and will probably be reduced in the U.S.) and introduced new products in the U.S. that are more competitively priced.

Face it "Barrister", you lost on EVERY point you tried to make. Good job.

Interesting new option for IBO's. Too bad the TEAM tool scammers won't be around. I wonder if Office Depot will carry Mona Vie?

Get PV/BV on in-store shopping at Office Depot! Sign up for the Office Depot shopping card through Partner Stores & Services.

Office Depot is partnering with Quixtar to enhance your shopping opportunities. The Office Depot shopping card allows you to earn PV/BV on in-store purchases of office products and services. That's right - you can make purchases at over 1,100 Office Depot retail locations across the U.S. and earn PV/BV! Just swipe your shopping card at the checkout prior to your purchase, and PV/BV for the sale will be credited to your IBO number.

Sign up to receive your Office Depot shopping card by visiting Quixtar.com, the Office Depot Partner Stores & Services bridge page, or through a link on the Office Depot Bulletin Board page (the first page you see when you visit the Office Depot website via Partner Stores & Services).

Note: This is not a credit card or payment card. Its function is to identify your purchases for credit of PV/BV to your Quixtar® IBO number. Please allow 2-3 weeks to receive your card.

Thanks for the "pass" on the profit sharing issue. I should point out TEAM took the payout lower than other tool scams I am aware of, they started paying at 12 tool paying IBO's in 2 legs. Coupled with their "depth first" strategy, it created situations where claims were made (and are very belivable) where Platinums easily made more via the "tool profit sharing" (TEAM's version of the tool scam) than via Quixtar. Paying everyone is what TIF tried to do, and that's why they got booted. This put them between what most tool scam companies do, where the tool profit doesn't exceed Quixtar income until about the Emerald level, and what TEAM was trying to do.

TOD is what TEAM was called until about 2004, when they changed their name. I think TOD was getting so much criticism online they decided to change to a generic term to try to hide among the weeds of the search engines. As like other strategies, this didn't work, either. TIF, on the other hand, was made of about 18 Diamonds from 4 different LOS's who came together to try something different, but they ended up trying to sell a tool starter kit for about $300 to every new IBO and use some of that money to compensate the immediate sponsor, thus creating an illegal pyramid, as there is no market outside the LOS for that product.

You can find a lot of information regarding TIF (Team in Focus) online, just do a google search.

Although not related by LOS, there are remarkable similarities between TIF a TOD/TEAM's approach.

I have scores of tapes from TIF, and some of them were apparently made at the time TIF thought they were close to getting approved, and they clearly indicate the above "pay everyone" was their approach.

I think Andy hints at this in his youtube video, but you have to listen to the video carefully with this idea in mind to pick it up.

Another recent distortion from ibofb below. Looks like he's trying to misquote/distort the facts prior to the Czech conference:

"As for the rest, there's no such thing as an "illegal self-consumption pyramid". DeVos was wrong in his much (tex) quoted reference of the early 80s."

This is false on two counts. First, it is easy to construct an illegal self-consumption pyramid. All you have to do is sell something worth $1 for $10, pay the $9 difference to those above you in the pyramid, and it isn't any different than the original Ponzi scheme. Second, the issue Rich DeVos got hottest and most emotional about in the "Directly Speaking" recordings wasn't the lack of outside tool sales, it was how people were getting ripped off on tools, and the need to limit tool profit to a reasonable level, and is my centerpiece issue (particularly the associated secrecy) regarding the lying cowardly "kingpin" tool scam.

I think IBOFB is getting nervous about being challenged and looking like the idiot he has shown himself to be regarding the tool scam, he hasn't had this much action on his site regarding me since I was on it. His previous lame and false comments about me "bragging" about getting invited to Europe and grudgingly giving me credit for a good idea for the 6 month/2 year rules, then saying the idea had "weaknesses" but couldn't name any, are 2 other examples of IBOFB cracking around the edges.

After doing a little research and not wanting ibofb to correct a minor issue and ignore the larger one, there is a difference between a Ponzi scheme and pyramid scheme. A Ponzi scheme has one figurehead, the equivalent of "width only.". A pyramid scheme uses the positional organization to make the payouts up the pyramid.

Here's another distortion from ibofb. This is what you get when you "ban" someone from your site, ibofb. I have to address your misunderstandings and confusion over here, then you can take it back to your lame site for further discussion. Here's what ibofb said:

"What Tex doesn't understand is that in his "system", tools actually cost *more*. First some IBO buys them off a BSM company, paying $A, then Tex buys them off them, paying $B. Tex got the tool cheaper, but ultimately the tool cost $A+$B, Tex just got someone else to pony up most of the money for him."

I fully understand that, you ignorant jerk. I understand I am "bottom feeding" and buying tools from IBO's who quit. What you don't understand is I am offering these people more money than they can get from their upline, the tool scammers. The original purchase occurred with ZERO involvement from me, so your "equation" makes ZERO sense. I also don't sell the tools, I loan them out. Therefore, from the original owners' perspective, they are getting more than their upline would give them. I am spending a fraction than I would buying the tools new, and our IBO's pay virtually nothing.

That makes 4 bonehead comments you have made about me recently. Care to type more stupid statements for our "discussion" (verbal spanking) in the Czech Republic?

"Everyone parrots the "no one achieves success without the system" mantra, but ARE the systems producing success that is consistent accross the majority of LOS, or is it just particular lines within an organization that have gelled and produced results through supportive teamwork of their own? That, I believe, is the measure of whether the tools expenditures are worth it--regardless of the BSM payout structure. (If you can't show me PRECISELY how you are going to help me grow my business to the point of being eligible, then it's probably money I will never see anyway.)

Which is, I think, the crux of Tex's point. If all the system is providing for you is BSM, then by all means buy it from ebay, listen to Tony Robbins, or Dennis Waitley or Jack Canfieldet; go to their seminars and retreats, etc, and grow your business on your own."

This is NOT the crux of my point. My point is the most basic issue - what is the business model? How is the money made? Primarily Quixtar or primarily tools? That's it. Just simple honesty. The basics. If it were an athletic sport, the basics are being in physical condition and knowing the plays. If it were a church, it would be whether it worshipped God or Satan. But it's a business, so the point is where does the profit come from? Simple stuff. Don't try to complicate it.

"I'll do a longer response later (perhaps), but I'd point out that Tony Robbins, Dennis Waitley etc are all generally significantly more expensive, so why on earth, if your happy with "system" BSM would you chose them instead?"

Notice how he TOTALLY ignores the ebay part and focuses on the outside well known sources. Actually, the outside well known sources would probably cost LESS, as there aren't NEARLY as many BSM's available from them as the lying cowardly "kingpins", and you wouldn't need to buy every single tool yourself, you could pass them around and share the cost. Also note there would be no hidden agenda tool scam profit agenda from these other tool sources. What a concept.

The latest on Orrin's blog is the money he publicly begged for isn't for him, it's for others. Yeah, right Orrin "Rosie Ruiz" Woodward. You're just a lying cowardly "kingpin", we know the truth. It's the opposite of whatever you say.

If the money isn’t for him as he claims, why did he begin his plea like this:

“Today I am posting a message that is uncomfortable for me personally. I believe strongly in giving to others, but do not enjoy asking for anything in return.”

Riiiight! Looks like it was a good idea at the time but then, darn, too many people saw through it. To top it all off, the latest entry on the Alticor Media Blog hit way too close to home. Time to spin & back pedal fast.

I hope your travel to Prague is enjoyable and most productive, Tex. I hope, too, that once you return, you are able to let us know what took place.

Exactly. That entire post doesn't even remotely imply the money isn't for him. Even if some of the money will help others, it was ORRIN who is responsible for the fiasco in the first place.

anon,

I doubt Orrin has any money left to pay MV to sue. He's already begging for money, remember?

I think the reason MV sued Quixtar is MV KNOWS their records will show they knowingly cheated, because their lawsuit wants the courts to drop the non-compete clause of ANOTHER company. This will again take much more time to sort out, as the court system will drag this out for at least a year or two. Now the MV President is begging Quixtar to settle out of court, but I doubt Quixtar will do that, they have no reason to do this, and a very good reason (the MV lawsuit) to proceed. Quixtar had already asked for the sponsorship documents directly, now through the courts, so they will have little patience for MV. Looks to me like Orrin took MV down another primrose path, at least he's consistent. Consistently STUPID.