I'm not against SA teams joining - they'd be no worse than the Italians and certainly better than American sides - but it would make it look like a "2nd division" for Super Rugby, which is going to really hurt the competition. All the RSA sides should jump ship and join us.

Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:19 am

Tony Panties

World XV Player

Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:37 pmPosts: 13439

Re: Pro12 Growth

Judgement Day down 8k this Season?

Near close and Osps and Blues avs up Drags and Scarlets down compared to last Season taking into account the Judgement Day effect on Blues and Drags

_________________Easy to consider past and present, it's the future and associated plan and strategy to achieve that takes the talent ..

Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:24 pm

AverageBBCjournalist

World XV Player

Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2012 2:08 pmPosts: 3554

Re: Pro12 Growth

I would take them in the pro12

Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:07 pm

Leinsterblue

World XV Player

Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:59 pmPosts: 2907

Re: Pro12 Growth

I would welcome their inclusion, more commercial possibilities than the Italians, and there are a lot of South African expats living in Ireland who would love to support a South African team in the NH. they can't be any worse than Zebre and Treviso can they ?

_________________Leinster will never win this one, they are crap away from home.- JonnyJugLickerResult - Northampton 7 - Leinster 40Luck of the Irish for Leinster again.- JonnyJugLicker

The Cheetahs and Kings are being booted out because they're the weakest two franchises.

"If you're not good enough for Super Rugby, you're welcome to join us!"

What kind of message does that say about the Pro12?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:32 am

Cymru am byth

World XV Player

Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2010 5:19 pmPosts: 7728

Re: Pro12 Growth

Leinsterblue wrote:

I would welcome their inclusion, more commercial possibilities than the Italians, and there are a lot of South African expats living in Ireland who would love to support a South African team in the NH. they can't be any worse than Zebre and Treviso can they ?

Most of the South African expats already play for Ireland!

Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:57 am

Leinsterblue

World XV Player

Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:59 pmPosts: 2907

Re: Pro12 Growth

Figaro wrote:

It should be all the South African SR teams, or none of them.

The Cheetahs and Kings are being booted out because they're the weakest two franchises.

"If you're not good enough for Super Rugby, you're welcome to join us!"

What kind of message does that say about the Pro12?

Its growth and lets face it the Italians are not pulling up tree's. I'm not too worried about what message it sends out.. it could be the making of the SA teams who join, if not at least you've tried.. also it increases commercial possibilities.. I'd stay up to Watch Leinster play Cheatahs in Bloemfontein it beats Rodney parade....

_________________Leinster will never win this one, they are crap away from home.- JonnyJugLickerResult - Northampton 7 - Leinster 40Luck of the Irish for Leinster again.- JonnyJugLicker

The Cheetahs and Kings are being booted out because they're the weakest two franchises.

"If you're not good enough for Super Rugby, you're welcome to join us!"

What kind of message does that say about the Pro12?

Its growth and lets face it the Italians are not pulling up tree's. I'm not too worried about what message it sends out.. it could be the making of the SA teams who join, if not at least you've tried.. also it increases commercial possibilities.. I'd stay up to Watch Leinster play Cheatahs in Bloemfontein it beats Rodney parade....

I'm sure they would be quite competitive if they remained as they currently are, certainly compared to the Italians. And on the surface of it there might be commercial potential. But at least with the Italians we can legitimately say they're the best domestic sides that they have. If we let in the Saffers' rejects, we are effectively saying "This is literally a second division competition". I think the two sides would suffer enormously: pretty soon their best players would jump ship to the sides that stayed in Super Rugby and they'd lose support and fans if they were seen as lesser teams.

Even assuming (a massive if) that they didn't lose any support in the move, if they're not profitable now in Super Rugby, why do we assume they would be in the Pro12? There *might* be a small boost to what they get now from TV revenue, but I'm guessing the SARU will not want to be funding teams in two competitions if the whole point of dropping teams is to share bigger slices of the pie amongst the remaining teams. Who's going to make up any deficit? The Pro12 unions?

SA teams in the Pro12 - sure, as long as it becomes the only top level for their domestic teams.

Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:28 am

Tony Panties

World XV Player

Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:37 pmPosts: 13439

Re: Pro12 Growth

I consider it a very positive step..... it's another step towards a W/Wide rugby timetable and a positive move towards e.g a N/S Hemp potential Conference.

There are too many constraints to have a fully blown International competition at Club/Region level but there is a way to have more competition using conferences and then play offs.

It certainly is the goal of the franglais and that's no reason to support it or not ... it makes sense to grow the game and provide a tier at Club level that should expland to other tiers which are sadly lacking at the mo. It also has significant commercial value and maybe puts more into perspective why Clubs like Saracens(and SA interests) are wearing high deficits 'cos they have are embarked on the long game

the downside is that in creating such a tier some Clubs/Regions that enjoy current privilege status will eventually lose status if they continue to underperform

Pro 12 wise the likes of Ireland can benefit and enjoy a wider spectrum of competition.

OK!.. it's lesser SA teams to start but out of acorns oak trees grow.

Good to see some progressive thinking!

_________________Easy to consider past and present, it's the future and associated plan and strategy to achieve that takes the talent ..

Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:34 am

Figaro

Regional Player

Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2015 9:25 pmPosts: 435

Re: Pro12 Growth

I've nothing against a global club competition but the steps need to be the right kind of steps or they risk branding the whole enterprise a failure. Super Rugby's current malaise is ample evidence of the risks of making poorly planned and executed change in blind faith that bigger is always better.

Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:41 am

Leinsterblue

World XV Player

Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:59 pmPosts: 2907

Re: Pro12 Growth

I accept what your saying figaro, but one thing which might make this interesting is what was reported in "The Australian" newspaper today which I have highlighted below.... perhaps we may get all of the SA teams after 2020 anyway ? its all up for grabs and a long term strategy might be needed to smooth the transition to SA teams in the NH and Pro 12 league. worth a punt. (probably wont happen)

Quote:

Tony McKeever, the former boss of the Southern Spears — the forerunners of the Southern Kings — said he had approached Pro12 officials to see if the Kings and Cheetahs, the two teams most likely to be cut, could enter the northern hemisphere competition which features teams from Ireland, Italy, Scotland and Wales.

“I have already engaged the Pro12 CEO Martin Anayi and proposed he take these two teams and rebrand this as the Pro14,” McKeever told South African media. “Martin is a visionary and seeks to expend the Pro12 into new markets and grow the television audience and spectators. This is a perfect synergistic way to accomplish this with South African Rugby.”

Indeed, the two franchises could be trailblazers for South African rugby in general.

When the current SANZAAR broadcast deal expires in 2020, it has been suggested that the joint venture be dissolved — or at least confined to Test rugby only — with South Africa heading to Europe while Australia and New Zealand break off to form a trans-Tasman competition.

_________________Leinster will never win this one, they are crap away from home.- JonnyJugLickerResult - Northampton 7 - Leinster 40Luck of the Irish for Leinster again.- JonnyJugLicker

I accept what your saying figaro, but one thing which might make this interesting is what was reported in "The Australian" newspaper today which I have highlighted below.... perhaps we may get all of the SA teams after 2020 anyway ? its all up for grabs and a long term strategy might be needed to smooth the transition to SA teams in the NH and Pro 12 league. worth a punt. (probably wont happen)

Quote:

Tony McKeever, the former boss of the Southern Spears — the forerunners of the Southern Kings — said he had approached Pro12 officials to see if the Kings and Cheetahs, the two teams most likely to be cut, could enter the northern hemisphere competition which features teams from Ireland, Italy, Scotland and Wales.

“I have already engaged the Pro12 CEO Martin Anayi and proposed he take these two teams and rebrand this as the Pro14,” McKeever told South African media. “Martin is a visionary and seeks to expend the Pro12 into new markets and grow the television audience and spectators. This is a perfect synergistic way to accomplish this with South African Rugby.”

Indeed, the two franchises could be trailblazers for South African rugby in general.

When the current SANZAAR broadcast deal expires in 2020, it has been suggested that the joint venture be dissolved — or at least confined to Test rugby only — with South Africa heading to Europe while Australia and New Zealand break off to form a trans-Tasman competition.

Which is exactly why we need to be careful. If the two rejects joined now and the move is seen as a failure - and as a literal "second choice" for the teams it's not going to get off to the best of starts - then that kills any chance of nabbing the lot later, and may do massive harm to the Pro12 brand.

We all know that, for all its faults, the current Super Rugby competition is more prestigious than the Pro12. The best South African players are not going to want to play in the Pro12 unless they can't get a place in a Super Rugby franchise.

We need to ensure that if and when the South Africans make the switch it is seen as a positive move, for them and for us, and not a consolation prize, a second choice, or as their only chance to avoid oblivion.

Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:52 am

Tony Panties

World XV Player

Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:37 pmPosts: 13439

Re: Pro12 Growth

Figaro wrote:

I've nothing against a global club competition but the steps need to be the right kind of steps or they risk branding the whole enterprise a failure. Super Rugby's current malaise is ample evidence of the risks of making poorly planned and executed change in blind faith that bigger is always better.

I'm aiming for richer and more competitive, I agree your comments and it has a downside potential but I believe that correctly managed it would be progressive.

SA transition was always on the cards ...

I repeat though that some will suffer and that is something that has to be accepted ... it is, imo, a vital ingredient.With greater internationalisation and increased tier that is progressive too although unpalatable to some.

At the end of the day vcommercial value and media interest will drive it and the already entry of some big entrepreneurs isn't, imo, without somle foresight.

_________________Easy to consider past and present, it's the future and associated plan and strategy to achieve that takes the talent ..

Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:25 pm

AverageBBCjournalist

World XV Player

Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2012 2:08 pmPosts: 3554

Re: Pro12 Growth

Think the SA sides will add to the competitiveness of the league as I would be surprised if they were any worse than Edinburgh, dragons, Treviso and zebra

They also have the incentive of European competition and the champions cup to make a success of it. If they get that going then big potential and current SA internationals may fancy playing for a SA franchise in the European champions cup

From a pro 12 perspective to have a League of Nations competing for European places would be quite interesting

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