I think it's just impossible to say at this point. Lots of 1st and 2nd year players in key roles. Lots of guys new to the team, in different roles than they were in with previous team. Some people claim that there's more talent on this team than any other since The Return, but that's just on paper. It could all fall apart like it has many times before.

Peeps just be infected with Mid Summer Optimism right now.

BUT... my interest in this team is getting piqued. Which can't be good.

I still think the 2007 team was the most talented - a number of talented players that were at their peak (short peaks which lasted only 1-2 years in most cases). This team COULD be more talented, but you can say that about any team from which you have no idea what to expect.

As long as the roster spots to the left of "QB" are weak, your roster is weak.

I'll give you that they seem to have some more talent than years past, however, if you gave any team of the least 10 years GOOD QB play, they would hammer this year's team. This point is arguable of course, but only if you believe Weeden has what it takes.

Not a single non-QB in the NFL that swings the line a full point. Think about that - ANY non- QB could fall off the face of the earth 24 hours before game time, and the line ain't moving. That's where this league is at. Last player that swung the line a point was two years ago Darrell Revis.

Improved from last year or the same at every position except one -- and a very important one at that: placekicker. Wonder how many games we'll lose this season when whatever slug is doing the field-goal kicking goes wide right in the final seconds?

leadpipe wrote:As long as the roster spots to the left of "QB" are weak, your roster is weak.

I'll give you that they seem to have some more talent than years past, however, if you gave any team of the least 10 years GOOD QB play, they would hammer this year's team. This point is arguable of course, but only if you believe Weeden has what it takes.

Not a single non-QB in the NFL that swings the line a full point. Think about that - ANY non- QB could fall off the face of the earth 24 hours before game time, and the line ain't moving. That's where this league is at. Last player that swung the line a point was two years ago Darrell Revis.

leadpipe wrote:As long as the roster spots to the left of "QB" are weak, your roster is weak.

I'll give you that they seem to have some more talent than years past, however, if you gave any team of the least 10 years GOOD QB play, they would hammer this year's team. This point is arguable of course, but only if you believe Weeden has what it takes.

Not a single non-QB in the NFL that swings the line a full point. Think about that - ANY non- QB could fall off the face of the earth 24 hours before game time, and the line ain't moving. That's where this league is at. Last player that swung the line a point was two years ago Darrell Revis.

AP doesn't swing the line a full point? You sure on that?

Calvin would too, since if he's out then Stafford throws 6 picks instead of 3.

leadpipe wrote:As long as the roster spots to the left of "QB" are weak, your roster is weak.

I'll give you that they seem to have some more talent than years past, however, if you gave any team of the least 10 years GOOD QB play, they would hammer this year's team. This point is arguable of course, but only if you believe Weeden has what it takes.

Not a single non-QB in the NFL that swings the line a full point. Think about that - ANY non- QB could fall off the face of the earth 24 hours before game time, and the line ain't moving. That's where this league is at. Last player that swung the line a point was two years ago Darrell Revis.

I'm not really sure what GOOD QB play has to do with it when comparing the talent level of this team vs the talent level of previous BROWNS teams since The Return (TM).

Kelly Holcomb had 2 or 3 really good games. DA had a magical half season. But that's IT as far as GOOD QB-ing here. And I think there are a lot of meh to bad QB's that can have a DA-esque run if a few things go their way and the schedule is lucky.

leadpipe wrote:As long as the roster spots to the left of "QB" are weak, your roster is weak.

I'll give you that they seem to have some more talent than years past, however, if you gave any team of the least 10 years GOOD QB play, they would hammer this year's team. This point is arguable of course, but only if you believe Weeden has what it takes.

Not a single non-QB in the NFL that swings the line a full point. Think about that - ANY non- QB could fall off the face of the earth 24 hours before game time, and the line ain't moving. That's where this league is at. Last player that swung the line a point was two years ago Darrell Revis.

AP doesn't swing the line a full point? You sure on that?

This is exactly the guy I was thinking of as well. Hear the topic discussed 3 or 4 times last year - and it was in regard to this or that player being injured and how it would effect the line, and how the general public overeacts for any single game. I would think by the end of last season he would swing the game a point, but specific names were never brought up for discussion - save the fact that Revis was consistently mentioned as the only guy in recent times that was a lock.

Personally, I'd look at it like this - A guy gets banged up. perhaps misses some time on Sunday, therefore the line for the game is unavailable early in the week - these are the guys that would approach a point. To their point, I gotta say, let's include AP. Gotta think the lines delayed. So that's one non QB. Anyone else? And it only took A. About the best season of all time to do it and B. Being on a team unfortunate enough tho have a QB that DOESN'T move the line. Cause if he was on a team with a QB that can move the line, he most surely doesn't move it a full point.

It's been a DECADE of the run to pass ration incrasing every single year. A decade in which they've also lgislated defense out of the game. The professionls - the guys that don't gas-bag, they back their opinions with CASH. These guys understand just how lopsided the league's gotten, and how little value there is outside of one position.

leadpipe wrote:As long as the roster spots to the left of "QB" are weak, your roster is weak.

I'll give you that they seem to have some more talent than years past, however, if you gave any team of the least 10 years GOOD QB play, they would hammer this year's team. This point is arguable of course, but only if you believe Weeden has what it takes.

Not a single non-QB in the NFL that swings the line a full point. Think about that - ANY non- QB could fall off the face of the earth 24 hours before game time, and the line ain't moving. That's where this league is at. Last player that swung the line a point was two years ago Darrell Revis.

I'm not really sure what GOOD QB play has to do with it when comparing the talent level of this team vs the talent level of previous BROWNS teams since The Return (TM).

Kelly Holcomb had 2 or 3 really good games. DA had a magical half season. But that's IT as far as GOOD QB-ing here. And I think there are a lot of meh to bad QB's that can have a DA-esque run if a few things go their way and the schedule is lucky.

I see you point - I'm just looking at a roster collectively in regards to CAN WE WIN?

And, to my point, basically the ONLY winning time they had was an abberration of DA and Holcomb's run - which I would argue was waaaaay more valuable than the difference in ANY Browns roster since their return.

In other words, tell me Weeden is gonna have a 12-14 game run like DA had, and you can slap any Browns roster you want behind him, and I'll take that over Weeden not being any better, with the Browns best roster behind him. And I would win by more than a little.

leadpipe wrote:As long as the roster spots to the left of "QB" are weak, your roster is weak.

I'll give you that they seem to have some more talent than years past, however, if you gave any team of the least 10 years GOOD QB play, they would hammer this year's team. This point is arguable of course, but only if you believe Weeden has what it takes.

Not a single non-QB in the NFL that swings the line a full point. Think about that - ANY non- QB could fall off the face of the earth 24 hours before game time, and the line ain't moving. That's where this league is at. Last player that swung the line a point was two years ago Darrell Revis.

I'm not really sure what GOOD QB play has to do with it when comparing the talent level of this team vs the talent level of previous BROWNS teams since The Return (TM).

Kelly Holcomb had 2 or 3 really good games. DA had a magical half season. But that's IT as far as GOOD QB-ing here. And I think there are a lot of meh to bad QB's that can have a DA-esque run if a few things go their way and the schedule is lucky.

I see you point - I'm just looking at a roster collectively in regards to CAN WE WIN?

And, to my point, basically the ONLY winning time they had was an abberration of DA and Holcomb's run - which I would argue was waaaaay more valuable than the difference in ANY Browns roster since their return.

In other words, tell me Weeden is gonna have a 12-14 game run like DA had, and you can slap any Browns roster you want behind him, and I'll take that over Weeden not being any better, with the Browns best roster behind him. And I would win by more than a little.

I don't disagree with you at all, just pointing out that you didn't answer the question that was asked - how does this team stack up against previous post-Return Browns teams? We know what it will take for this team to stack up against real NFL teams.

leadpipe wrote:As long as the roster spots to the left of "QB" are weak, your roster is weak.

I'll give you that they seem to have some more talent than years past, however, if you gave any team of the least 10 years GOOD QB play, they would hammer this year's team. This point is arguable of course, but only if you believe Weeden has what it takes.

Not a single non-QB in the NFL that swings the line a full point. Think about that - ANY non- QB could fall off the face of the earth 24 hours before game time, and the line ain't moving. That's where this league is at. Last player that swung the line a point was two years ago Darrell Revis.

I'm not really sure what GOOD QB play has to do with it when comparing the talent level of this team vs the talent level of previous BROWNS teams since The Return (TM).

Kelly Holcomb had 2 or 3 really good games. DA had a magical half season. But that's IT as far as GOOD QB-ing here. And I think there are a lot of meh to bad QB's that can have a DA-esque run if a few things go their way and the schedule is lucky.

I see you point - I'm just looking at a roster collectively in regards to CAN WE WIN?

And, to my point, basically the ONLY winning time they had was an abberration of DA and Holcomb's run - which I would argue was waaaaay more valuable than the difference in ANY Browns roster since their return.

In other words, tell me Weeden is gonna have a 12-14 game run like DA had, and you can slap any Browns roster you want behind him, and I'll take that over Weeden not being any better, with the Browns best roster behind him. And I would win by more than a little.

I don't disagree with you at all, just pointing out that you didn't answer the question that was asked - how does this team stack up against previous post-Return Browns teams? We know what it will take for this team to stack up against real NFL teams.

SD:

Not a team yet , but man for man the deepest roster of talent and coaching, since we hade Lyle Alzado and Ozzie with Sipe on that ill fated superbowl run.

Not a team yet , but man for man the deepest roster of talent and coaching, since we hade Lyle Alzado and Ozzie with Sipe on that ill fated superbowl run.

SoulDawg

Stating that this team has a deeper roster of talent/coaching than the Bernie Kosar-3-AFC-Championship-Game teams is bold indeed.

If Chud could even be AS GOOD AS Schottenheimer, I'd be tickled salmon. And that's just the start of the list. WAAAAAY too many unknowns for me to climb on board that theory.

Replace bold with down right moronic.

Those Kosar years had very solid talent, they were relatively deep year in and year out, and had very few total bums.

Now granted the game has changed and today the athleticism is on another level, but when comparing apples to apples and taking into account rules and trends of the game, today we are still a far cry from the talent those teams in the late 80s had. Collectively speaking.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

leadpipe wrote:As long as the roster spots to the left of "QB" are weak, your roster is weak.

I'll give you that they seem to have some more talent than years past, however, if you gave any team of the least 10 years GOOD QB play, they would hammer this year's team. This point is arguable of course, but only if you believe Weeden has what it takes.

Not a single non-QB in the NFL that swings the line a full point. Think about that - ANY non- QB could fall off the face of the earth 24 hours before game time, and the line ain't moving. That's where this league is at. Last player that swung the line a point was two years ago Darrell Revis.

I'm not really sure what GOOD QB play has to do with it when comparing the talent level of this team vs the talent level of previous BROWNS teams since The Return (TM).

Kelly Holcomb had 2 or 3 really good games. DA had a magical half season. But that's IT as far as GOOD QB-ing here. And I think there are a lot of meh to bad QB's that can have a DA-esque run if a few things go their way and the schedule is lucky.

I see you point - I'm just looking at a roster collectively in regards to CAN WE WIN?

And, to my point, basically the ONLY winning time they had was an abberration of DA and Holcomb's run - which I would argue was waaaaay more valuable than the difference in ANY Browns roster since their return.

In other words, tell me Weeden is gonna have a 12-14 game run like DA had, and you can slap any Browns roster you want behind him, and I'll take that over Weeden not being any better, with the Browns best roster behind him. And I would win by more than a little.

I don't disagree with you at all, just pointing out that you didn't answer the question that was asked - how does this team stack up against previous post-Return Browns teams? We know what it will take for this team to stack up against real NFL teams.

In regards to wins and losses - I did answer the question. They are comparable to any of the new Browns rosters unless they solve position #1. If you wanna talk totsl number of guys we can label average or above, I'd say this year's number might exceed just about any new Browns roster, it's just not gonna be reflected in wins unless they can pass the football.

leadpipe wrote:As long as the roster spots to the left of "QB" are weak, your roster is weak.

I'll give you that they seem to have some more talent than years past, however, if you gave any team of the least 10 years GOOD QB play, they would hammer this year's team. This point is arguable of course, but only if you believe Weeden has what it takes.

Not a single non-QB in the NFL that swings the line a full point. Think about that - ANY non- QB could fall off the face of the earth 24 hours before game time, and the line ain't moving. That's where this league is at. Last player that swung the line a point was two years ago Darrell Revis.

AP doesn't swing the line a full point? You sure on that?

AP worth 2.5 points according to Mike Colbert from Cantor. Largest point spread value for a non-QB in 25 YEARS. Only defensive player worth a point is JJ Watt. And for all the Von Miller hub-bub, the wiseguys have him at 20% to 50% of a point.

15 offensive players and 8 defensive players approach a 1/2 point of line value IN THE ENTIRE LEAGUE.

leadpipe wrote:AP worth 2.5 points according to Mike Colbert from Cantor. Largest point spread value for a non-QB in 25 YEARS. Only defensive player worth a point is JJ Watt. And for all the Von Miller hub-bub, the wiseguys have him at 20% to 50% of a point.

15 offensive players and 8 defensive players approach a 1/2 point of line value IN THE ENTIRE LEAGUE.

Yeah, but is AP worth 2.5 points to everybody or just Mike Colbert's cronies?

A God Damn dead man would understand that if a minor league bus in any city took a real sharp right turn, a Zack McCalister would likely fall out. - Lead Pipe

Not a team yet , but man for man the deepest roster of talent and coaching, since we hade Lyle Alzado and Ozzie with Sipe on that ill fated superbowl run.

SoulDawg

Stating that this team has a deeper roster of talent/coaching than the Bernie Kosar-3-AFC-Championship-Game teams is bold indeed.

If Chud could even be AS GOOD AS Schottenheimer, I'd be tickled salmon. And that's just the start of the list. WAAAAAY too many unknowns for me to climb on board that theory.

Replace bold with down right moronic.

Those Kosar years had very solid talent, they were relatively deep year in and year out, and had very few total bums.

Now granted the game has changed and today the athleticism is on another level, but when comparing apples to apples and taking into account rules and trends of the game, today we are still a far cry from the talent those teams in the late 80s had. Collectively speaking.

SD:

I'll see your moron , and raise you two.

Fuck You .

Richardson is more the total package than Mack without a substance abuse problem.While Obi is shaping up as the every other play utility man Byner offered as a Changeup , had Lewis not been scratched his Daren Sproiles persona was unmatched ny any Shotty teams , and Norv wouldn't have Metcalfed him up the middle .

Both Little and Gordon are bigger and faster than Ozzie Newsome , and Cameron offers a dynamic we hadn't seen at the position since before Winslow went Evil Knievel if he stays healthy ( big "IF "., with Cooper set to channel Brian Brennan with more size and speed , with Devon Bess giving us the reliability and threat of a Slaughter langhorne Brennan mix .

We never had dick for an Oline for bloodlines, except for our center from Meatchicken , during the Kosar years which shortened Bernies shelf life , while Thomas has been one of the premiere tackles in the league withe two #1 picks and a top second rounder invested in the starting line, to say nothing about Benjamin who remains the fastest Brown to ever suit up over both the Ice-cube and Metcalf , and he can catch and stretch the field alongside two TE sized receivers and a lineman sized tight end.

Certainly Bernie had more brains in his cut toe Nails than Weeds has in his entire body , but arm strength and athleticism , are two words which were never associated with Bernie.

Defensively , back then we had Clay Hanford and Minnie and safeties who could cover and hit .

But we never had a front seven who could bring it from the parking lot , Bryant Taylor Wynn Kruger Mingo Sheard Rubin and Mingo , with reserves other teams will sign as soon as we cut them in Hughes and Kitchen .

Talent wise I'll take Chud and Norv calling plays over Marty y interfering with Infante , and Horton in the clutch vs Marty choking on his own spit .

We're not a team yet, and that team was tested by fire rallying behind Bernie inspite of Marty, which was my point , and we won't be if Weeds shits his pants , but will be if he sacs up .

With RG3 Luck Wilson or Kap or even the Bernie Kosar of that era ., this is a team who you could ride to the Superbowl .

We're to the point QB play is all the difference and the front office biting the bullet and slagging Ward , who can't cover for shit.

leadpipe wrote:As long as the roster spots to the left of "QB" are weak, your roster is weak.

I'll give you that they seem to have some more talent than years past, however, if you gave any team of the least 10 years GOOD QB play, they would hammer this year's team. This point is arguable of course, but only if you believe Weeden has what it takes.

Not a single non-QB in the NFL that swings the line a full point. Think about that - ANY non- QB could fall off the face of the earth 24 hours before game time, and the line ain't moving. That's where this league is at. Last player that swung the line a point was two years ago Darrell Revis.

I'm not really sure what GOOD QB play has to do with it when comparing the talent level of this team vs the talent level of previous BROWNS teams since The Return (TM).

Kelly Holcomb had 2 or 3 really good games. DA had a magical half season. But that's IT as far as GOOD QB-ing here. And I think there are a lot of meh to bad QB's that can have a DA-esque run if a few things go their way and the schedule is lucky.

I see you point - I'm just looking at a roster collectively in regards to CAN WE WIN?

And, to my point, basically the ONLY winning time they had was an abberration of DA and Holcomb's run - which I would argue was waaaaay more valuable than the difference in ANY Browns roster since their return.

In other words, tell me Weeden is gonna have a 12-14 game run like DA had, and you can slap any Browns roster you want behind him, and I'll take that over Weeden not being any better, with the Browns best roster behind him. And I would win by more than a little.

I don't disagree with you at all, just pointing out that you didn't answer the question that was asked - how does this team stack up against previous post-Return Browns teams? We know what it will take for this team to stack up against real NFL teams.

SD:

Not a team yet , but man for man the deepest roster of talent and coaching, since we hade Lyle Alzado and Ozzie with Sipe on that ill fated superbowl run.

SoulDawg

Sparrows Capastrano

Buzzards Hinkley

Dead Shad Euclid

Whales No Cal

Lemmings Cliff

Monarchs Mexico

Sd74 & Browns August.

Yawn.

Look for the Weedon sucks trade up for Teddy by October & fire Chud by December.

Not a team yet , but man for man the deepest roster of talent and coaching, since we hade Lyle Alzado and Ozzie with Sipe on that ill fated superbowl run.

SoulDawg

Stating that this team has a deeper roster of talent/coaching than the Bernie Kosar-3-AFC-Championship-Game teams is bold indeed.

If Chud could even be AS GOOD AS Schottenheimer, I'd be tickled salmon. And that's just the start of the list. WAAAAAY too many unknowns for me to climb on board that theory.

Replace bold with down right moronic.

Those Kosar years had very solid talent, they were relatively deep year in and year out, and had very few total bums.

Now granted the game has changed and today the athleticism is on another level, but when comparing apples to apples and taking into account rules and trends of the game, today we are still a far cry from the talent those teams in the late 80s had. Collectively speaking.

SD:

I'll see your moron , and raise you two.

Fuck You .

Richardson is more the total package than Mack without a substance abuse problem.While Obi is shaping up as the every other play utility man Byner offered as a Changeup , had Lewis not been scratched his Daren Sproiles persona was unmatched ny any Shotty teams , and Norv wouldn't have Metcalfed him up the middle .

Both Little and Gordon are bigger and faster than Ozzie Newsome , and Cameron offers a dynamic we hadn't seen at the position since before Winslow went Evil Knievel if he stays healthy ( big "IF "., with Cooper set to channel Brian Brennan with more size and speed , with Devon Bess giving us the reliability and threat of a Slaughter langhorne Brennan mix .

We never had dick for an Oline for bloodlines, except for our center from Meatchicken , during the Kosar years which shortened Bernies shelf life , while Thomas has been one of the premiere tackles in the league withe two #1 picks and a top second rounder invested in the starting line, to say nothing about Benjamin who remains the fastest Brown to ever suit up over both the Ice-cube and Metcalf , and he can catch and stretch the field alongside two TE sized receivers and a lineman sized tight end.

Certainly Bernie had more brains in his cut toe Nails than Weeds has in his entire body , but arm strength and athleticism , are two words which were never associated with Bernie.

Defensively , back then we had Clay Hanford and Minnie and safeties who could cover and hit .

But we never had a front seven who could bring it from the parking lot , Bryant Taylor Wynn Kruger Mingo Sheard Rubin and Mingo , with reserves other teams will sign as soon as we cut them in Hughes and Kitchen .

Talent wise I'll take Chud and Norv calling plays over Marty y interfering with Infante , and Horton in the clutch vs Marty choking on his own spit .

We're not a team yet, and that team was tested by fire rallying behind Bernie inspite of Marty, which was my point , and we won't be if Weeds shits his pants , but will be if he sacs up .

With RG3 Luck Wilson or Kap or even the Bernie Kosar of that era ., this is a team who you could ride to the Superbowl .

We're to the point QB play is all the difference and the front office biting the bullet and slagging Ward , who can't cover for shit.

SoulDawg

Wow, all of a sudden 13 years kinda blurred into one roster. SD used the 1980 team as the comparison, but then it jumped to the '86-'89 teams, then Steve Everitt was thrown in even though he wasn't drafted until 1993.

FTR - The 1980 team had the best O-Line since the '64 team and we have never even come close. Not remotely close.

The O Line during the early Kosar years was very solid - Risien was a multiple pro-bowler. Did Kosar get sacked a lot? Yes, because he never wanted to throw the ball away. The real beatings didn't start until Carson ran off Trestman and we had guys like Ed King and John Rienstra in pass pro.

As far as the "front 7" - I'll take Hariston, Golic, Matthews, Banks.... over the current guys. Any day. The '87 team allowed 16 points per game - despite playing Marty's read and react bend but don't break scheme.

Where does this roster really stack up? Defensively the best since the return. Agree there. Offensively, second best to the '07 team. But nowhere close to either the 1980's team or the one from '86-'89.

I don't need to be patient, they're going to be shit forever. - CDT, discussing my favorite NFL team

Not a team yet , but man for man the deepest roster of talent and coaching, since we hade Lyle Alzado and Ozzie with Sipe on that ill fated superbowl run.

SoulDawg

Stating that this team has a deeper roster of talent/coaching than the Bernie Kosar-3-AFC-Championship-Game teams is bold indeed.

If Chud could even be AS GOOD AS Schottenheimer, I'd be tickled salmon. And that's just the start of the list. WAAAAAY too many unknowns for me to climb on board that theory.

Replace bold with down right moronic.

Those Kosar years had very solid talent, they were relatively deep year in and year out, and had very few total bums.

Now granted the game has changed and today the athleticism is on another level, but when comparing apples to apples and taking into account rules and trends of the game, today we are still a far cry from the talent those teams in the late 80s had. Collectively speaking.

SD:

I'll see your moron , and raise you two.

Fuck You .

Richardson is more the total package than Mack without a substance abuse problem.While Obi is shaping up as the every other play utility man Byner offered as a Changeup , had Lewis not been scratched his Daren Sproiles persona was unmatched ny any Shotty teams , and Norv wouldn't have Metcalfed him up the middle .

Both Little and Gordon are bigger and faster than Ozzie Newsome , and Cameron offers a dynamic we hadn't seen at the position since before Winslow went Evil Knievel if he stays healthy ( big "IF "., with Cooper set to channel Brian Brennan with more size and speed , with Devon Bess giving us the reliability and threat of a Slaughter langhorne Brennan mix .

We never had dick for an Oline for bloodlines, except for our center from Meatchicken , during the Kosar years which shortened Bernies shelf life , while Thomas has been one of the premiere tackles in the league withe two #1 picks and a top second rounder invested in the starting line, to say nothing about Benjamin who remains the fastest Brown to ever suit up over both the Ice-cube and Metcalf , and he can catch and stretch the field alongside two TE sized receivers and a lineman sized tight end.

Certainly Bernie had more brains in his cut toe Nails than Weeds has in his entire body , but arm strength and athleticism , are two words which were never associated with Bernie.

Defensively , back then we had Clay Hanford and Minnie and safeties who could cover and hit .

But we never had a front seven who could bring it from the parking lot , Bryant Taylor Wynn Kruger Mingo Sheard Rubin and Mingo , with reserves other teams will sign as soon as we cut them in Hughes and Kitchen .

Talent wise I'll take Chud and Norv calling plays over Marty y interfering with Infante , and Horton in the clutch vs Marty choking on his own spit .

We're not a team yet, and that team was tested by fire rallying behind Bernie inspite of Marty, which was my point , and we won't be if Weeds shits his pants , but will be if he sacs up .

With RG3 Luck Wilson or Kap or even the Bernie Kosar of that era ., this is a team who you could ride to the Superbowl .

We're to the point QB play is all the difference and the front office biting the bullet and slagging Ward , who can't cover for shit.

SoulDawg

Wow, all of a sudden 13 years kinda blurred into one roster. SD used the 1980 team as the comparison, but then it jumped to the '86-'89 teams, then Steve Everitt was thrown in even though he wasn't drafted until 1993.

FTR - The 1980 team had the best O-Line since the '64 team and we have never even come close. Not remotely close.

The O Line during the early Kosar years was very solid - Risien was a multiple pro-bowler. Did Kosar get sacked a lot? Yes, because he never wanted to throw the ball away. The real beatings didn't start until Carson ran off Trestman and we had guys like Ed King and John Rienstra in pass pro.

As far as the "front 7" - I'll take Hariston, Golic, Matthews, Banks.... over the current guys. Any day. The '87 team allowed 16 points per game - despite playing Marty's read and react bend but don't break scheme.

Where does this roster really stack up? Defensively the best since the return. Agree there. Offensively, second best to the '07 team. But nowhere close to either the 1980's team or the one from '86-'89.

SD:

Good points , but lets not compare starting points with finishing points , it took years to build that roster while this one is less than two seasons old .

Moreover this roster hasn't played a down under new systems on both sides of the ball , vs a team who played together for five solid spectacular years .

This team however has the advantage of free agency next year with over 30 million in cap room , and the choice to upgrade to either a true Franchise elite QB prospect if Weeds don't pan out , or chase the Clowney dream if he does.

Potentially ,,,, yes the dreaded Pee word , potentially we're at the nexus of amassing the most talented young roster since the Paul Brown days when he was trading away Hofamers like Mitchell , and when we could draft guys outta Syracuse who broke Jim Browns records while Jim Brown was still on the roster.

We have naught but a question mark at QB , Weeds channels DA and the 2007 miracle the Browns are back , if not even Norv or Chud can save him ,we'll have to grab the Tage Bridgewater life ramp to heaven, and trade our Clowney aspirations.

Campbell is good insurance , too bad can't say the same thing at RB TE and safety.

leadpipe wrote:As long as the roster spots to the left of "QB" are weak, your roster is weak.

I'll give you that they seem to have some more talent than years past, however, if you gave any team of the least 10 years GOOD QB play, they would hammer this year's team. This point is arguable of course, but only if you believe Weeden has what it takes.

Not a single non-QB in the NFL that swings the line a full point. Think about that - ANY non- QB could fall off the face of the earth 24 hours before game time, and the line ain't moving. That's where this league is at. Last player that swung the line a point was two years ago Darrell Revis.

I'm not really sure what GOOD QB play has to do with it when comparing the talent level of this team vs the talent level of previous BROWNS teams since The Return (TM).

Kelly Holcomb had 2 or 3 really good games. DA had a magical half season. But that's IT as far as GOOD QB-ing here. And I think there are a lot of meh to bad QB's that can have a DA-esque run if a few things go their way and the schedule is lucky.

I see you point - I'm just looking at a roster collectively in regards to CAN WE WIN?

And, to my point, basically the ONLY winning time they had was an abberration of DA and Holcomb's run - which I would argue was waaaaay more valuable than the difference in ANY Browns roster since their return.

In other words, tell me Weeden is gonna have a 12-14 game run like DA had, and you can slap any Browns roster you want behind him, and I'll take that over Weeden not being any better, with the Browns best roster behind him. And I would win by more than a little.

I don't disagree with you at all, just pointing out that you didn't answer the question that was asked - how does this team stack up against previous post-Return Browns teams? We know what it will take for this team to stack up against real NFL teams.

SD:

Not a team yet , but man for man the deepest roster of talent and coaching, since we hade Lyle Alzado and Ozzie with Sipe on that ill fated superbowl run.

SoulDawg

Sparrows Capastrano

Buzzards Hinkley

Dead Shad Euclid

Whales No Cal

Lemmings Cliff

Monarchs Mexico

Sd74 & Browns August.

Yawn.

Look for the Weedon sucks trade up for Teddy by October & fire Chud by December.

Death taxes etc etc

SD:

Pour yourself a nice big glass of STFU and share a pitcher with Donny .

Ain't nobody calling out your balless prediction for 7 wins , for the chicken shit middle of the road gutless facade trying to look good atypical yuppie punk ass prediction you'd expect out of a cocksucker such as your self , .

leadpipe wrote:As long as the roster spots to the left of "QB" are weak, your roster is weak.

I'll give you that they seem to have some more talent than years past, however, if you gave any team of the least 10 years GOOD QB play, they would hammer this year's team. This point is arguable of course, but only if you believe Weeden has what it takes.

Not a single non-QB in the NFL that swings the line a full point. Think about that - ANY non- QB could fall off the face of the earth 24 hours before game time, and the line ain't moving. That's where this league is at. Last player that swung the line a point was two years ago Darrell Revis.

I'm not really sure what GOOD QB play has to do with it when comparing the talent level of this team vs the talent level of previous BROWNS teams since The Return (TM).

Kelly Holcomb had 2 or 3 really good games. DA had a magical half season. But that's IT as far as GOOD QB-ing here. And I think there are a lot of meh to bad QB's that can have a DA-esque run if a few things go their way and the schedule is lucky.

I see you point - I'm just looking at a roster collectively in regards to CAN WE WIN?

And, to my point, basically the ONLY winning time they had was an abberration of DA and Holcomb's run - which I would argue was waaaaay more valuable than the difference in ANY Browns roster since their return.

In other words, tell me Weeden is gonna have a 12-14 game run like DA had, and you can slap any Browns roster you want behind him, and I'll take that over Weeden not being any better, with the Browns best roster behind him. And I would win by more than a little.

I don't disagree with you at all, just pointing out that you didn't answer the question that was asked - how does this team stack up against previous post-Return Browns teams? We know what it will take for this team to stack up against real NFL teams.

SD:

Not a team yet , but man for man the deepest roster of talent and coaching, since we hade Lyle Alzado and Ozzie with Sipe on that ill fated superbowl run.

SoulDawg

Sparrows Capastrano

Buzzards Hinkley

Dead Shad Euclid

Whales No Cal

Lemmings Cliff

Monarchs Mexico

Sd74 & Browns August.

Yawn.

Look for the Weedon sucks trade up for Teddy by October & fire Chud by December.

Death taxes etc etc

SD:

Pour yourself a nice big glass of STFU and share a pitcher with Donny .

Ain't nobody calling out your balless prediction for 7 wins , for the chicken shit middle of the road gutless facade trying to look good atypical yuppie punk ass prediction you'd expect out of a cocksucker such as your self , .

Not hardly.

SoulDawg

Kinda harsh, no? I guess you manage to forget all of the "kinder/gentler moderator" tone when you post here?

I don't need to be patient, they're going to be shit forever. - CDT, discussing my favorite NFL team

mattvan1 wrote:Wow, all of a sudden 13 years kinda blurred into one roster. SD used the 1980 team as the comparison, but then it jumped to the '86-'89 teams, then Steve Everitt was thrown in even though he wasn't drafted until 1993.

FTR - The 1980 team had the best O-Line since the '64 team and we have never even come close. Not remotely close.

The O Line during the early Kosar years was very solid - Risien was a multiple pro-bowler. Did Kosar get sacked a lot? Yes, because he never wanted to throw the ball away. The real beatings didn't start until Carson ran off Trestman and we had guys like Ed King and John Rienstra in pass pro.

As far as the "front 7" - I'll take Hariston, Golic, Matthews, Banks.... over the current guys. Any day. The '87 team allowed 16 points per game - despite playing Marty's read and react bend but don't break scheme.

Where does this roster really stack up? Defensively the best since the return. Agree there. Offensively, second best to the '07 team. But nowhere close to either the 1980's team or the one from '86-'89.

SD:

Good points , but lets not compare starting points with finishing points , it took years to build that roster while this one is less than two seasons old .

Moreover this roster hasn't played a down under new systems on both sides of the ball , vs a team who played together for five solid spectacular years .

This team however has the advantage of free agency next year with over 30 million in cap room , and the choice to upgrade to either a true Franchise elite QB prospect if Weeds don't pan out , or chase the Clowney dream if he does.

Potentially ,,,, yes the dreaded Pee word , potentially we're at the nexus of amassing the most talented young roster since the Paul Brown days when he was trading away Hofamers like Mitchell , and when we could draft guys outta Syracuse who broke Jim Browns records while Jim Brown was still on the roster.

We have naught but a question mark at QB , Weeds channels DA and the 2007 miracle the Browns are back , if not even Norv or Chud can save him ,we'll have to grab the Tage Bridgewater life ramp to heaven, and trade our Clowney aspirations.

Campbell is good insurance , too bad can't say the same thing at RB TE and safety.

SoulDawg

Agree it's pretty intriguing to see what will happen when Norv gets Benjamin, Gordon, Little, Cameron and Richardson on the field at the same time, with Bess on 3rd downs.

Defensively I wonder if you are more sold on Horton's scheme than on the talent. Mingo needs to get on the field and produce, the ILBs are meh (still love ya DQ) and 3 of the back 4 are a complete dumpster fire. I see visions of the old Rob Ryan "bring the house, don't get pressure, and get beaten over the top" scheme.

We might not win a lot, but we'll see a lot of 31-30 shootouts, so at least it will be fun.

I don't need to be patient, they're going to be shit forever. - CDT, discussing my favorite NFL team

leadpipe wrote:AP worth 2.5 points according to Mike Colbert from Cantor. Largest point spread value for a non-QB in 25 YEARS. Only defensive player worth a point is JJ Watt. And for all the Von Miller hub-bub, the wiseguys have him at 20% to 50% of a point.

15 offensive players and 8 defensive players approach a 1/2 point of line value IN THE ENTIRE LEAGUE.

Yeah, but is AP worth 2.5 points to everybody or just Mike Colbert's cronies?

It is Cantor's opinion that AP is worth more than any non-QB in the last 25 years.

The 2.5 points is a consensus from a numbers of Vegas pros.

Lotta people got a lot to say about Colbert - and some of it with good reason. Not much of it takes away the fact that the guy is, and is close to many respected guys in the know.

And Cantor isn't afraid to take an opinion on a game, and they ain't scared to take a bet - more than can be said about many of the few remaining books in that city.

Nah, not harsh at all. My man knows its the 12s & so do I. We're always good. Sides, it'd good to see the real SD. Him playing Mod and kow towing is like Barney Fife trying to pull off Jack Bauer in a ghost town. It makes me sad for him.

It don't take cojones to go off on some half baked rant about a wing, a prayer , and potential. Every damn season he wants it so bad he whips himself up in a delusional frenzy like a Black middle age football Pennsatucky and spews nonsense, hope and venom. By December the butt hurt sets in and he's all emo like as if he Taylor Swift & the Browns are a boy.

I'd be worried about the old cat if it weren't so.

This is a below ave NFL team which for them is an improvement. The record should reflect that. Has nothing to do with balls.

Not 1 DB could start on the 86 Browns. Clay would be the best of the front 7. And Ogby as Byner?

jb wrote:Nah, not harsh at all. My man knows its the 12s & so do I. We're always good. Sides, it'd good to see the real SD. Him playing Mod and kow towing is like Barney Fife trying to pull off Jack Bauer in a ghost town. It makes me sad for him.

It don't take cojones to go off on some half baked rant about a wing, a prayer , and potential. Every damn season he wants it so bad he whips himself up in a delusional frenzy like a Black middle age football Pennsatucky and spews nonsense, hope and venom. By December the butt hurt sets in and he's all emo like as if he Taylor Swift & the Browns are a boy.

I'd be worried about the old cat if it weren't so.

This is a below ave NFL team which for them is an improvement. The record should reflect that. Has nothing to do with balls.

Not 1 DB could start on the 86 Browns. Clay would be the best of the front 7. And Ogby as Byner?

Tells u all u need to know.

Nice. And believe me, I actually like SD and his stuff. Miss it. And he is as passionate as the next guy. Hell, if I knew how I'd go to his place where he mods and stop in, but I don't. And I'm obsessive/compulsive so its best I don't form another habit that sucks the strength and time out of me.

But the DB thing, Clay and Obie/Byner thing you referenced up there is dead nuts.

Bottom line, and I've said it a thousand times before, if calendars were extinct, you'd know exactly what day of the year it was by reading these posts.

September is near. Clearly.

This post and the fact we've handed out participation ribbons and are counting off days til equipment truck leaves for Goodyear tell us so.

leadpipe wrote:AP worth 2.5 points according to Mike Colbert from Cantor. Largest point spread value for a non-QB in 25 YEARS. Only defensive player worth a point is JJ Watt. And for all the Von Miller hub-bub, the wiseguys have him at 20% to 50% of a point.

15 offensive players and 8 defensive players approach a 1/2 point of line value IN THE ENTIRE LEAGUE.

Yeah, but is AP worth 2.5 points to everybody or just Mike Colbert's cronies?

It is Cantor's opinion that AP is worth more than any non-QB in the last 25 years.

The 2.5 points is a consensus from a numbers of Vegas pros.

Lotta people got a lot to say about Colbert - and some of it with good reason. Not much of it takes away the fact that the guy is, and is close to many respected guys in the know.

And Cantor isn't afraid to take an opinion on a game, and they ain't scared to take a bet - more than can be said about many of the few remaining books in that city.

Just a joke about Colbert's situation, that's all. I agree with everything that's been said and Cantor is absolutely willing to take any and all action. Pretty sure one of their books is the one that took six figures on Fresno State, who won but didn't cover. Wynn took 30k on Fresno as well.

A good buddy of mine is on the odds team at The M where Colbert was working. He didn't tell me much, but I'm sure he heard quite a bit.

A God Damn dead man would understand that if a minor league bus in any city took a real sharp right turn, a Zack McCalister would likely fall out. - Lead Pipe

Man, that late 80s team really had a solid chance to win it all. The timeliness of the USFL folding, bringing M Johnson/Minnie/Fike/McNeil/Mack to the roster, could have put them over the top when teams like the bengals didn;t even dip their toe in that pool.

Not fair to compare this team to that one. Banks' head/ them trading him; Rogers' death; Infante leaving & Marty playing not to lose at the wrong moments & drafting like an idiot; a bad break or 2 notwithstanding, that roster was at the top of the league.

jb wrote:Nah, not harsh at all. My man knows its the 12s & so do I. We're always good. Sides, it'd good to see the real SD. Him playing Mod and kow towing is like Barney Fife trying to pull off Jack Bauer in a ghost town. It makes me sad for him.

It don't take cojones to go off on some half baked rant about a wing, a prayer , and potential. Every damn season he wants it so bad he whips himself up in a delusional frenzy like a Black middle age football Pennsatucky and spews nonsense, hope and venom. By December the butt hurt sets in and he's all emo like as if he Taylor Swift & the Browns are a boy.

I'd be worried about the old cat if it weren't so.

This is a below ave NFL team which for them is an improvement. The record should reflect that. Has nothing to do with balls.

Not 1 DB could start on the 86 Browns. Clay would be the best of the front 7. And Ogby as Byner?

Tells u all u need to know.

Nice. And believe me, I actually like SD and his stuff. Miss it. And he is as passionate as the next guy. Hell, if I knew how I'd go to his place where he mods and stop in, but I don't. And I'm obsessive/compulsive so its best I don't form another habit that sucks the strength and time out of me.

But the DB thing, Clay and Obie/Byner thing you referenced up there is dead nuts.

Bottom line, and I've said it a thousand times before, if calendars were extinct, you'd know exactly what day of the year it was by reading these posts.

September is near. Clearly

SD:

This is no crack induced haze , or some pom pom waiving fog of delirium .

Last year I gave us no better than five wins , solely because they were still fucking around with Colt McCoy and trying to train a 103 year old rookie QB .

The realty remains even at that , Shurmur lost 4 additional winnable games , so this team has or had 8 and 8 type talent to play games that close inspite of the horrid coaching they were receiving .

So in that regard , and the 80 million dollar outlay to back up the new defensive philosophy with the teeth to run the scheme , I see this same team squeezing out those 8 wins they were robbed of last year , plus 2 more just on youth enthusiasm and Karma.

The same record Rac and Chud achieved with a little smarter QB and a far superior supporting cast , with Norv calling plays ,and Horton free to unleash the Kraken .

Talent wise we're loaded with potential , the dreaded Pee word ,lots of legit speed and athleticism on both sides of the ball , although much of it is raw, the root change is whether or not Chud Norv and Horton can coach em up .

I 'm betting they can , .Anybody can pick Sundays games with Mondays newspaper , this is my Friday night call to the bookie in real time .

Moreover , its not totally dependent on Brandon Weeden , because Norvs system friendly setup will allow us to win with Campbell or Hoyer if Weeden shits his pants , so long as Richardson stays healthy and your running game remains a legit threat .

Would like to see them keep Grankowski , I like them hands.

Teams are lining up to purge our front seven cuts , and the QB is playing for his life , with two guys they won't hesitate to replace his ass with or use #1 cheddar on next year to replace his butt , if he even looks like he ain't all that and a bag of chips .

Nice mix of talent pressure youthful enthusiasm and much to prove from the players thru the coaching staff thru the front office .

Everybody and their momma is on Blast , right up and through the owner.

Can't wait to see what cooks up, with a defense that can travel.

IMO this team is underrated , which is exactly what i want them to be.

They have to steal some early wins , which is key for a young teams confidence .

Success breeds more success , and this is a cycle of suck which can only be broken , cause it ain't gonna disappear on its own.

After watching the sorry performance by the back-ups last night (Hoyer excluded), I gotta say that tomorrow's cut should not be down to 53 but down to about 45. Fill out the roster with waiver pick-ups; they gotta be better than the end of our current bench.

SD: So in that regard , and the 80 million dollar outlay to back up the new defensive philosophy with the teeth to run the scheme , I see this same team squeezing out those 8 wins they were robbed of last year , plus 2 more just on youth enthusiasm and Karma.

Agree that the high-side potential is 8 wins, if key injuries are kept to a minimum. But realistically, there's not much depth except at DL and maybe LB, so injuries to key starters could well result in another 4- or 5-win season.

The thing we've got to live with is that, YET AGAIN, this is a new coach, new offensive scheme, new defensive scheme, and huge, obvious holes in the defensive backfield. Like it or not, this is a building year YET AGAIN (note lack of use of the term "rebuilding").

Tough to predict with wins.....cause they could win 4 against this shitty schedule and not count, or they could win 7 against this shitty schedule - and still not count.

Only thing that really sticks out to me is D-line. Gotta pressure to defend nowadays, and it looks like they can.

As far as Richardson - he'll go if Weeden goes. Any running game in this league is set up by the pass. It ain't 1980 anymore. It's why the Pats and Saints don't need a marquee player to spearhead their excellent running games, Brady takes care of that.

I don't give a rat's ass who you are, you gotta have a chief that can see the field, and sense what the hell is going on in the pocket, cause defense 2013 is all switching schemes and pressure. ALL switching schemes and pressure.

If Weeden can handle this, they are in business, but he ain't fakin' his way thru that shit and taking the team anywhere - even with a higher talent level.

Again, put a top 12 QB on last years squad, and they'd be several games better than this years more talented one.

jb wrote:Nah, not harsh at all. My man knows its the 12s & so do I. We're always good. Sides, it'd good to see the real SD. Him playing Mod and kow towing is like Barney Fife trying to pull off Jack Bauer in a ghost town. It makes me sad for him.

It don't take cojones to go off on some half baked rant about a wing, a prayer , and potential. Every damn season he wants it so bad he whips himself up in a delusional frenzy like a Black middle age football Pennsatucky and spews nonsense, hope and venom. By December the butt hurt sets in and he's all emo like as if he Taylor Swift & the Browns are a boy.

I'd be worried about the old cat if it weren't so.

This is a below ave NFL team which for them is an improvement. The record should reflect that. Has nothing to do with balls.

Not 1 DB could start on the 86 Browns. Clay would be the best of the front 7. And Ogby as Byner?

Tells u all u need to know.

SD:

Hayden couldn't start , Yeah right , Kruger outweighs our lineman , back then , and Bryant would have been the beast from the East back in that day .

Mingo BTW is bigger and faster than LT , butt he certainly ain't no LT who like Jim Brown could play in any era .

Never said this talent was better , than the boys in the old era , , those who cant' read made that jump , I did say the talent is the best we've had collectively since that era .

And while the 82 Patriots in Techmo Bowl would crush the undefeated 48 Browns due to era relativity that couldn't be less relevant. It's about how talent translates to Ws in context. Nothing else matters.

A team that cane within 1:48 of a SB is deeper & more talented than a 5 win team with potential in any scenario other than the feature film "Being Soul Dawg".

He'll, St Ignatius would score 100 on Crysler's Point a Minute Wolverines. So what?.

Where I agree is potential. But we all know what that is.

If the Browns stay healthy (too late) and Weedon & the WRs play well, ceiling is 9. Ain't nothin helping the DBs. Dings and the passing game sucking keep us at 6.

I have more faith in Weeds that the WRs. Gordon's mental lapses, Littles inability to separate, & Bess & JC's fragility are troublesome . Weeds will press and bad things will happen.

jb wrote:Joe Hayden could not start over Hanford & Minnie in their primes.

And while the 82 Patriots in Techmo Bowl would crush the undefeated 48 Browns due to era relativity that couldn't be less relevant. It's about how talent translates to Ws in context. Nothing else matters.

A team that cane within 1:48 of a SB is deeper & more talented than a 5 win team with potential in any scenario other than the feature film "Being Soul Dawg".

He'll, St Ignatius would score 100 on Crysler's Point a Minute Wolverines. So what?.

Where I agree is potential. But we all know what that is.

If the Browns stay healthy (too late) and Weedon & the WRs play well, ceiling is 9. Ain't nothin helping the DBs. Dings and the passing game sucking keep us at 6.

I have more faith in Weeds that the WRs. Gordon's mental lapses, Littles inability to separate, & Bess & JC's fragility are troublesome . Weeds will press and bad things will happen.

Believe me, nobody has more respect for what Hanford and Minny did, on a team without much of a pass rush no less.....but Joe Haden with 1986 rules would be a MONSTER.

You could argue all day who starts, but he is absolutely in that class.

Conversly, as much as those guys got by on physicality, they'd have many of the same problems Haden has today.

Joe Haden can COVER - he just ain't playin' the same game that Raymond Clayborn or Michael Haynes was.

peeker643 wrote:Nice. And believe me, I actually like SD and his stuff. Miss it. And he is as passionate as the next guy. Hell, if I knew how I'd go to his place where he mods and stop in, but I don't.

Well, if yah ever wondered what it's like to visit the mall cop at Euclid Square Mall....

jb wrote:Joe Hayden could not start over Hanford & Minnie in their primes.

And while the 82 Patriots in Techmo Bowl would crush the undefeated 48 Browns due to era relativity that couldn't be less relevant. It's about how talent translates to Ws in context. Nothing else matters.

A team that cane within 1:48 of a SB is deeper & more talented than a 5 win team with potential in any scenario other than the feature film "Being Soul Dawg".

He'll, St Ignatius would score 100 on Crysler's Point a Minute Wolverines. So what?.

Where I agree is potential. But we all know what that is.

If the Browns stay healthy (too late) and Weedon & the WRs play well, ceiling is 9. Ain't nothin helping the DBs. Dings and the passing game sucking keep us at 6.

I have more faith in Weeds that the WRs. Gordon's mental lapses, Littles inability to separate, & Bess & JC's fragility are troublesome . Weeds will press and bad things will happen.

Believe me, nobody has more respect for what Hanford and Minny did, on a team without much of a pass rush no less.....but Joe Haden with 1986 rules would be a MONSTER.

You could argue all day who starts, but he is absolutely in that class.

Conversly, as much as those guys got by on physicality, they'd have many of the same problems Haden has today.

Joe Haden can COVER - he just ain't playin' the same game that Raymond Clayborn or Michael Haynes was.

No, I don't believe you.

This take has zero to do with disrespecting Joe Hayden. Fantastic player still improving. The issue is Minnie & Hanford at their 86 peak. Never seen a player lose it so quickly as. Dixon but in 86 he was the top CB in the NFL. Better than Haynes, Hays, anyone. Minnie hit peak in 88 but in a toss up in 86 Minnie vs 13 Joe Minnie's ability to play ball gives him edge.

Wondering if you enlighten me as the the DB WR rules changes after 86?

jb wrote:Joe Hayden could not start over Hanford & Minnie in their primes.

And while the 82 Patriots in Techmo Bowl would crush the undefeated 48 Browns due to era relativity that couldn't be less relevant. It's about how talent translates to Ws in context. Nothing else matters.

A team that cane within 1:48 of a SB is deeper & more talented than a 5 win team with potential in any scenario other than the feature film "Being Soul Dawg".

He'll, St Ignatius would score 100 on Crysler's Point a Minute Wolverines. So what?.

Where I agree is potential. But we all know what that is.

If the Browns stay healthy (too late) and Weedon & the WRs play well, ceiling is 9. Ain't nothin helping the DBs. Dings and the passing game sucking keep us at 6.

I have more faith in Weeds that the WRs. Gordon's mental lapses, Littles inability to separate, & Bess & JC's fragility are troublesome . Weeds will press and bad things will happen.

Believe me, nobody has more respect for what Hanford and Minny did, on a team without much of a pass rush no less.....but Joe Haden with 1986 rules would be a MONSTER.

You could argue all day who starts, but he is absolutely in that class.

Conversly, as much as those guys got by on physicality, they'd have many of the same problems Haden has today.

Joe Haden can COVER - he just ain't playin' the same game that Raymond Clayborn or Michael Haynes was.

No, I don't believe you.

This take has zero to do with disrespecting Joe Hayden. Fantastic player still improving. The issue is Minnie & Hanford at their 86 peak. Never seen a player lose it so quickly as. Dixon but in 86 he was the top CB in the NFL. Better than Haynes, Hays, anyone. Minnie hit peak in 88 but in a toss up in 86 Minnie vs 13 Joe Minnie's ability to play ball gives him edge.

Wondering if you enlighten me as the the DB WR rules changes after 86?

Or are you talking about tackling/hitting AFTER the catch.

Probably talking about how Polian whined like a little bitch about the Pats dbs shutting down Manning and the Colts

jb wrote:Joe Hayden could not start over Hanford & Minnie in their primes.

And while the 82 Patriots in Techmo Bowl would crush the undefeated 48 Browns due to era relativity that couldn't be less relevant. It's about how talent translates to Ws in context. Nothing else matters.

A team that cane within 1:48 of a SB is deeper & more talented than a 5 win team with potential in any scenario other than the feature film "Being Soul Dawg".

He'll, St Ignatius would score 100 on Crysler's Point a Minute Wolverines. So what?.

Where I agree is potential. But we all know what that is.

If the Browns stay healthy (too late) and Weedon & the WRs play well, ceiling is 9. Ain't nothin helping the DBs. Dings and the passing game sucking keep us at 6.

I have more faith in Weeds that the WRs. Gordon's mental lapses, Littles inability to separate, & Bess & JC's fragility are troublesome . Weeds will press and bad things will happen.

Believe me, nobody has more respect for what Hanford and Minny did, on a team without much of a pass rush no less.....but Joe Haden with 1986 rules would be a MONSTER.

You could argue all day who starts, but he is absolutely in that class.

Conversly, as much as those guys got by on physicality, they'd have many of the same problems Haden has today.

Joe Haden can COVER - he just ain't playin' the same game that Raymond Clayborn or Michael Haynes was.

No, I don't believe you.

This take has zero to do with disrespecting Joe Hayden. Fantastic player still improving. The issue is Minnie & Hanford at their 86 peak. Never seen a player lose it so quickly as. Dixon but in 86 he was the top CB in the NFL. Better than Haynes, Hays, anyone. Minnie hit peak in 88 but in a toss up in 86 Minnie vs 13 Joe Minnie's ability to play ball gives him edge.

Wondering if you enlighten me as the the DB WR rules changes after 86?

Or are you talking about tackling/hitting AFTER the catch.

Tell me you can't see the difference in the contact allowed BEFORE the catch out there?

Christ, once pretty boy Manning complained about the Patriots knocking his guys off the ball, it mine as well be touch.

Dixon was THE BEST. I agree. He also ain't playing that style today. All I'm sayin' is Hayden would love the physicality those two were afforded - not sure if he would reach Hanford's peak as a cover man, but to be sure today's game makes it LIGHT YEARS more difficult.

Overall point is Hayden replaces Hanford and you wouldn't miss much. It's the joke QB's safeties, linebackers, receivers and the like replacing legitimate good players that would show one the differences between the teams.

gameface wrote:Nice. Compared to Mall of America right here. Oooo, all this traffic makes me dizzy.

Like this board, like that board, both have their moments.

But dang JB, obsess much? Maybe if the mods here were really good they'd kill your post as off topic. ;-)

Writes the guy who comes to another forum and domain he never posts on to post some sort of conceived defense over a throwaway innocuous smart assed quip....

Yes GF. Both boards are similar in traffic volume. Slim and none. Both are built on a small core group of guys. AFAIK there's only been one standard for deletion here and it has been consistent and moderated as such. That's where the similarity ends. Like anyone else, I can vote with my sausage fingers.

Butt I only commented as SD came in with his BSD and acted like the SD of old he is. Matt van quipped, I quipped. It's throwaway stuff. I didn't lash out, bomb, or at least intend to. It just sorta went there and if one were to stalk with a chip on shoulder I suppose it comes off that way.

But if the quip fits... you know the rest. i don't wanna get drug into it though.

jb wrote:Joe Hayden could not start over Hanford & Minnie in their primes.

And while the 82 Patriots in Techmo Bowl would crush the undefeated 48 Browns due to era relativity that couldn't be less relevant. It's about how talent translates to Ws in context. Nothing else matters.

A team that cane within 1:48 of a SB is deeper & more talented than a 5 win team with potential in any scenario other than the feature film "Being Soul Dawg".

He'll, St Ignatius would score 100 on Crysler's Point a Minute Wolverines. So what?.

Where I agree is potential. But we all know what that is.

If the Browns stay healthy (too late) and Weedon & the WRs play well, ceiling is 9. Ain't nothin helping the DBs. Dings and the passing game sucking keep us at 6.

I have more faith in Weeds that the WRs. Gordon's mental lapses, Littles inability to separate, & Bess & JC's fragility are troublesome . Weeds will press and bad things will happen.

Believe me, nobody has more respect for what Hanford and Minny did, on a team without much of a pass rush no less.....but Joe Haden with 1986 rules would be a MONSTER.

You could argue all day who starts, but he is absolutely in that class.

Conversly, as much as those guys got by on physicality, they'd have many of the same problems Haden has today.

Joe Haden can COVER - he just ain't playin' the same game that Raymond Clayborn or Michael Haynes was.

No, I don't believe you.

This take has zero to do with disrespecting Joe Hayden. Fantastic player still improving. The issue is Minnie & Hanford at their 86 peak. Never seen a player lose it so quickly as. Dixon but in 86 he was the top CB in the NFL. Better than Haynes, Hays, anyone. Minnie hit peak in 88 but in a toss up in 86 Minnie vs 13 Joe Minnie's ability to play ball gives him edge.

Wondering if you enlighten me as the the DB WR rules changes after 86?

Or are you talking about tackling/hitting AFTER the catch.

Tell me you can't see the difference in the contact allowed BEFORE the catch out there?

Christ, once pretty boy Manning complained about the Patriots knocking his guys off the ball, it mine as well be touch.

Dixon was THE BEST. I agree. He also ain't playing that style today. All I'm sayin' is Hayden would love the physicality those two were afforded - not sure if he would reach Hanford's peak as a cover man, but to be sure today's game makes it LIGHT YEARS more difficult.

Overall point is Hayden replaces Hanford and you wouldn't miss much. It's the joke QB's safeties, linebackers, receivers and the like replacing legitimate good players that would show one the differences between the teams.

Rules are the same but I agree enforcement is different. I see your point. I think it is more pronounced after the catch tho.

Again, I didn't come here to bury Hayden on this one, just to recognize Hanford and Minnie for what they were.

I remain consistent I doubt Hayden starts over those two. Not because Hayden isn't an excellent CB, but because those two in their peak.... just wow.. But yeah, to yer point it's not like saying TJ Ward > Felix Wright or a joke like that.

gameface wrote:Nice. Compared to Mall of America right here. Oooo, all this traffic makes me dizzy.

Like this board, like that board, both have their moments.

But dang JB, obsess much? Maybe if the mods here were really good they'd kill your post as off topic. ;-)

Writes the guy who comes to another forum and domain he never posts on to post some sort of conceived defense....

Yes GF. Both boards are similar in traffic volume. Slim and none. Both are built on a small core group of guys. AFAIK there's only been one standard for deletion here and it has been consistent and moderated as such. That's where the similarity ends.

Butt I only commented as SD came in with his BSD and acted like the SD of old he is. I didn't lash out, or at least intend to. It just sorta went there and if one were to stalk with a chip on shoulder I suppose it comes off that way.

gameface wrote:Nice. Compared to Mall of America right here. Oooo, all this traffic makes me dizzy.

Like this board, like that board, both have their moments.

But dang JB, obsess much? Maybe if the mods here were really good they'd kill your post as off topic. ;-)

Writes the guy who comes to another forum and domain he never posts on to post some sort of conceived defense....

Yes GF. Both boards are similar in traffic volume. Slim and none. Both are built on a small core group of guys. AFAIK there's only been one standard for deletion here and it has been consistent and moderated as such. That's where the similarity ends.

Butt I only commented as SD came in with his BSD and acted like the SD of old he is. I didn't lash out, or at least intend to. It just sorta went there and if one were to stalk with a chip on shoulder I suppose it comes off that way.

But if the quip fits... you know the rest.

The children don't like it when you two argue.

Sorry Mom.

I'll go back to being my Chas Barkly role model self.

BTW - I heart Urbs.

That Brax TD pass shows the dif between saturday and sunday like no other single play can. LOL.