heart wrote:There is something my Guru sometimes say that goes more or less like this; "Rigpa is difficult to realize because it is to close, to brilliant and to easy." Kind of sums it up nicely.

/magnus

Yes, but that is a paraphrase of Mahamudra instruction from Karmapa Wangchuk Dorje, not Dzogchen instruction. It's intention (as a pointing out instruction) is to say that ordinary people do not recognize or appreciate ground mahamudra because of these four qualities (too close, too easy, too profound, too excellent). I have never heard it used to argue that Dzogchen is difficult to practice/realize.

heart wrote:There is something my Guru sometimes say that goes more or less like this; "Rigpa is difficult to realize because it is to close, to brilliant and to easy." Kind of sums it up nicely.

/magnus

Yes, but that is a paraphrase of Mahamudra instruction from Karmapa Wangchuk Dorje, not Dzogchen instruction. It's intention (as a pointing out instruction) is to say that ordinary people do not recognize or appreciate ground mahamudra because of these four qualities (too close, too easy, too profound, too excellent). I have never heard it used to argue that Dzogchen is difficult to practice/realize.

heart wrote:There is something my Guru sometimes say that goes more or less like this; "Rigpa is difficult to realize because it is to close, to brilliant and to easy." Kind of sums it up nicely.

/magnus

Yes, but that is a paraphrase of Mahamudra instruction from Karmapa Wangchuk Dorje, not Dzogchen instruction. It's intention (as a pointing out instruction) is to say that ordinary people do not recognize or appreciate ground mahamudra because of these four qualities (too close, too easy, too profound, too excellent). I have never heard it used to argue that Dzogchen is difficult to practice/realize.

Yes, why bother to be precise when dealing with central concepts of practice? It's all just words anyway, man.

Or we can get all anally retentive about it, and split hairs all day about what is (or is not) mind , whether Mahamudra is Dzogchen, whether they differ in terms of practice or not, whether we are talking about ground or sutra mahamudra, etc... and clutter up yet another thread with the same old boring endless repetive and essentially useless distracting discussion (ie views) since Dzogchen/Mahamudra essentially only requires pointing out for you to get it, and verything else is just (more) verbal flatulance.

gregkavarnos wrote:Let's see how finely we can split this hair now, shall we?

It is actually an important difference as Malcolm just showed.

Yes, I am sure it is, coz now that you know that sems nyid is not Rig pa, well, now you just realised the essential state, whereas up to now you only realised the nature of mind. That's how important that was. Right?

Yes, why bother to be precise when dealing with central concepts of practice? It's all just words anyway, man.

Or we can get all anally retentive about it, and split hairs all day about what is (or is not) mind , whether Mahamudra is Dzogchen, whether they differ in terms of practice or not, whether we are talking about ground or sutra mahamudra, etc... and clutter up yet another thread with the same old boring endless repetive and essentially useless distracting discussion (ie views) since Dzogchen/Mahamudra essentially only requires pointing out for you to get it, and verything else is just (more) verbal flatulance.

gregkavarnos wrote:Let's see how finely we can split this hair now, shall we?

It is actually an important difference as Malcolm just showed.

Yes, I am sure it is, coz now that you know that sems nyid is not Rig pa, well, now you just realised the essential state, whereas up to now you only realised the nature of mind. That's how important that was. Right?

Are you generally going to be this snotty from now on? Or are you just having a day?

gregkavarnos wrote:Let's see how finely we can split this hair now, shall we?

It is actually an important difference as Malcolm just showed.

Yes, I am sure it is, coz now that you know that sems nyid is not Rig pa, well, now you just realised the essential state, whereas up to now you only realised the nature of mind. That's how important that was. Right?

Actually I was aware of that fact before this thread.

I wonder why you always have to act like a punk anyway. I further hope your moderation sabbatical lasts until you reach Buddhahood.

I think you will find that karma dorje was being ironic and not literal. (ie that he was disagreeing with me)

Are you generally going to be this snotty from now on? Or are you just having a day?

Just got back from watching a two hour documentary which comprised of interviews with women that were active in the Greek resistance movement (against the Nazi occupation) during and after WWII. Torture, betrayals, executions, beatings, starvation, exile, etc... of women whose age (during the time of the resistance) averaged between 12-30. After hearing their accounts (most of the women are in their late 60's to early 70's now, little old women who, if you saw them walking down the street, you would never imagine...) all this seems, well... really, unbelievably, like completely... pointless and lacking any essence. So sorry for the attitude.

gregkavarnos wrote:Let's see how finely we can split this hair now, shall we?

It is actually an important difference as Malcolm just showed.

Yes, I am sure it is, coz now that you know that sems nyid is not Rig pa, well, now you just realised the essential state, whereas up to now you only realised the nature of mind. That's how important that was. Right?

If you knew what we were talking about, you could have noticed how this point is important ... but sometimes I also like marmelade.

Sönam

By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.- Longchen Rabjam -