Regardless of whether you believe in an afterlife, you must continue living to do all those other things. Some of us just take it one step further, because there are things we want to do, well, after life. It doesn't mean we can't do the rest as well. It doesn't mean we can't find "meaning" in things other than what's in the holy books.

Do you think you will get much choice of what to do in your afterlife? Do you think you will get an afterlife immediately after death or will you have to wait for a resurrection?

When I was a JW kid, the thought of surviving Armageddon and spending everlasting life living in a big park full of JW's adoring Jehovah God was enough to make me want to sin. Most of the kids were messed up and mean and most of the adults were pious hypocrites.

Now that I am an evil sinful atheist, what a relief that I won't survive Armageddon! Whew! Dodged that bullet....

Depending on your interpretation, Heaven will be either very empty or very full. Sometimes Jesus makes it sound impossible to enter Heaven (give away all your possessions), while at others makes it sound too easy (just believe). Assuming, perhaps wrongly, that it's somewhere in the middle, remember that while none of us would like to spend any time with the fundies from the Bible Belt, there have been quite a variety of Christians since Christianity began, and in different parts of the world.

I believe it because I feel an energy inside me I call spirit. I don't believe that spirit dies. I believe it because that's what I would expect from a loving God.

What if you are correct in thinking that there is an afterlife? If you die in this world and your spirit moves on into the next realm ... what if you get there and find out there is no god but just another world? And what if the people in that world also die again ... just to find out that their next afterlife is just another world?

What if there is afterlife but no god?

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John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Chronos, I have given Nam love. I have offered the olive branch several times and he hits me with it. Whenever Nam is ready I will be happy to call a truce.

That's why you should have more facts before opening your keyboard!!!

To the rest of you I think you shouldn't call people names and then criticize them for defending herself. That's why I keep saying you are arrogant. I have for the most part dealt with your derogatory remarks like a lady. I flipped my lid 1 time and that was understandable.

Love only works when there are willing participants. I was hoping to find willing participants here but I'm not having any luck, much.

OK Nam what part of this post is BS. I can go retrieve the attempts I've made to reach peace with you. I can also search infinitely for a kind remark you sent my way only to come up empty. You have never been nothing but nasty to me. You've had me in your sights since my first thread and keep missing. lol

I would very much like to make peace with you. If that means leaving this site I will go. Whatever makes you happy. You say it I will do it, besides die or anything that causes me physical harm.

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when you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change

Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.

OK Nam ... You have never been nothing but nasty to me. You've had me in your sights since my first thread and keep missing. lol

I would very much like to make peace with you. If that means leaving this site I will go. Whatever makes you happy. You say it I will do it, besides die or anything that causes me physical harm.

why do you care so much about what Nam thinks?? If you recognize he's never been anything but nasty, why are you willing to try to placate him?? Just ignore him. Sheesh.

engage with people with whom you feel you gain something. Personally, I find Nam useful to engage with, so I don't ignore him, but if that doesn't work for you, why would you go out of your way for him??

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...religion is simply tribalism with a side order of philosophical wankery, and occasionally a baseball bat to smash...anyone who doesn't show...deference to the tribe's chosen totem.

~Astreja

To not believe in god is to know that it falls to us to make the world a better place.

(Nam) You have never been nothing but nasty to me. You've had me in your sights since my first thread and keep missing. I would very much like to make peace with you. If that means leaving this site I will go. Whatever makes you happy. You say it I will do it, besides die or anything that causes me physical harm.

If he has you in his sights, and he agitates you so ... why do you pay any attention to him at all?

(Nam) You have never been nothing but nasty to me. You've had me in your sights since my first thread and keep missing. I would very much like to make peace with you. If that means leaving this site I will go. Whatever makes you happy. You say it I will do it, besides die or anything that causes me physical harm.

If he has you in his sights, and he agitates you so ... why do you pay any attention to him at all?

The question is rhetorical, but the answer is very important.

Hello, how can I offer somebody the love I want to share if I ignore them. Second He slanders my name. Third he asks me direct questions. Fourth I am not afraid. Learning how to make peace with someone that despises me so much would be a valuable life lesson.

Like I said I'm cool as a cucumber he 's not going to bother me ever again. I can thank him for thickening my skin. THANKS NAM!!!

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when you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change

OK Nam ... You have never been nothing but nasty to me. You've had me in your sights since my first thread and keep missing. lol

I would very much like to make peace with you. If that means leaving this site I will go. Whatever makes you happy. You say it I will do it, besides die or anything that causes me physical harm.

why do you care so much about what Nam thinks?? If you recognize he's never been anything but nasty, why are you willing to try to placate him?? Just ignore him. Sheesh.

engage with people with whom you feel you gain something. Personally, I find Nam useful to engage with, so I don't ignore him, but if that doesn't work for you, why would you go out of your way for him??

Nam is worth paying attention to. He is intelligent and challenging. I appreciate every word he says. I'm pouring it on thick here . Nam is not this way because he had a warm and fuzzy Brady Bunch childhood. He has been hurt same as me and I want to help him to not hurt anymore. If it helps him to let that rage out on me I can take it.

Why do people climb mountains? To see the view from the top!

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when you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change

I don't know why people get so nasty here. I disagree with your take on god and religion, but I see no reason not to afford you the common social graces society offers.

It is not like your belief is going to hurt me. I think belief in a god is a common thing that many if not most people have in common. The way Nam responds to people who disagree with his point of view makes me think he might protest a little too much.

to ellicit such an angry response might be a sign of someone who is trying to convince themself:) Or he could be simply a mean rude person:)

The only way I would attack you as hard as Nam would be if you were defending child rape:lol:

Nam may also just be using a brutal forceful approach to try and run his point home. I prefer civilized flies and honey approach.

Hello, how can I offer somebody the love I want to share if I ignore them.

So your determination to "offer the love you want to share" is somehow of greater importance than Nam's clearly stated desire that you NOT do so? How much more clearly does your "offer" have to be rejected before it stops being an "offer" and becomes a demand, coercion, or a threat? For someone who gets bent out of shape about being referred to as religious, your behavior looks identical.

So far, months into the pitch, no one is buying what you are selling. It isn't that your audience doesn't understand your "message"; your "message" is absolutely meaningless to everyone but you. That's why it's called SPAG - it's YOUR self-projection.

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“Be skeptical. But when you get proof, accept proof.” –Michael Specter

JB, I think we on this thread would appreciate it if you stopped engaging with Nam, a self-described a$$hole, and just responded to those of us who are genuinely interested in your ideas. We would not be taking the time to compose detailed responses to your post if we did want to hear what you have to say.

So many of your responses to our posts consist of 1)you getting defensive about something that someone said that you misinterpreted, 2)you getting defensive about the way we interpret what you say, and 3)you getting defensive when we point out your logical fallacies. So much defense when there is no attack. Why?

Then, instead of trying to clarify what you are saying or trying to understand what we are saying, you turn around and waste your precious energy discussing Nam's pointless insults. Why?

I think most of us have figured out where you stand on god, the afterlife, etc. We do not think your conclusions hold up to careful scrutiny, although you say you have examined your ideas in detail. Instead of explaining what your examination has consisted of, you just keep repeating your conclusions. Why?

You might want to go back and look at what people (minus Nam) have said in long, carefully written posts to you. Is it possible for you to paraphrase any of those posts to show that you understood what the person said? Like, "what I think you are saying to me, nogods, is _________. Is that what you meant to say, nogods?"

Then you might be able to respond point by point instead of a short angry remark that dismisses the person's effort in one sentence. If you do that, you might realize that people (minus Nam) here are not starting out trying to insult you. If you are not willing to at least do that, it begins to look more and more like you are trying to be a victim, instead of an equal participant in a discussion....

She can't see past the deflector shields she has put up in order to protect her 'comfort food' belief in a God/afterlife. I know because I put up the same defense mechanisms (and knee jerk reactions) when I was a believer in "God" and when I used to debate online with "you atheists" years back (just as she is doing now). It's actually self-induced fear that causes the alarms to ring and the shields to go up (one of being wrong and not knowing what to do about it - feeling hopeless/unhappy without the comforting belief), but the fear comes as a result of other fears (fear of death, fear of being alone, fear of helplessness, fear of the unknown, etc). They are extremely powerful and I think they are ultimately the main reason people come to believe in varying gods or the afterlife - not for good reasons, but emotional defense.

I don't know why people get so nasty here. I disagree with your take on god and religion, but I see no reason not to afford you the common social graces society offers.

Well...there can be reasons to eschew the common social graces that society offers, depending on the purposes of the conversation. The common social grace of not offending peoples' sensibilities, for example, is detrimental to the discussion of emotionally hot-button topics. It allows for the possibility of putting some relevant ideas into a 'Here Be Dragons' category that need not be discussed, and unfortunately, when trying to ascertain things like objective truth, that can (and often does) put a damper on making any intellectual progress.

I don't know if mean-spiritedness is ever truly warranted, and I myself engage in it from time to time as a means of venting frustration, but to tip-toe around subject manner in the name of 'not upsetting someone' is an immature way to have a discussion. It is basically synonymous with declaring the person with the opposing viewpoint to be 'too fragile' or 'too weak willed' or otherwise incapable of handling intense discussion. I find that to be belittling and disrespectful.

Quote

Nam may also just be using a brutal forceful approach to try and run his point home. I prefer civilized flies and honey approach.

If the goal is to 'get people on your side', then by all means go ahead and slather honey all over the place. But if the goal is to ascertain truth, regardless of what side it happens to be on, leave the honey at home and focus on the salient points of discussion.

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"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

that part after the semi-colon completely contradicts everything before it.

You can understand something and still find it meaningless, ie it does not matter to you. Not that it has no meaning ie is not understandable. The English language is so imprecise sometimes. I'll bet there are no issues like this in the world's easiest language: central African KiKongo.....

No past or future tenses, no negative form or gendered nouns. Language facility in about a week, working fluency in about a month, world peace ensues. And kick-kongo-a$$ music!

that part after the semi-colon completely contradicts everything before it.

I agree with what nogods says above. Further, I can read and comprehend the meaning of such words as "god is love" but I'm sure as shootin' not getting the "message" being sent by those words - it means nothing to anyone but the person saying it. Replace the first use of "message" with "words" and you get the point.

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“Be skeptical. But when you get proof, accept proof.” –Michael Specter

Jag you're just wrong. I am not here shoving anything down anybody's throat, if anything that's the other way around. I have been asked many questions and I have answered them. I gave him anger and he didn't like that either.

Nogod's you wouldn't kick back and let folks call you stupid either, nobody will. I'm sick and tired of being criticized for doing what one naturally does. If you don't want people to get defensive don't call them names!!! I have never said "everybody" here was cruel, mainly because of folks like you and traveler, if I did I already apologized for it. Why do you care if I engage Nam. He always comes after me and y'all act like I'm the one. That really strikes me as strange.

Man y'all really need to lighten up. Everybody does. The Christians, the Muslims, The Islamic and yes the atheist. Life is too short and too precious. There is no saving the world. People are going to believe what they want to. All we can do is what we as individuals think right. I don't think it's right to believe in a cruel god and I don't think it's right to be a cruel human.

Median as far as your comments go. I have revealed a lot here. I'm sorry you missed it. I guess in a way you are right. My beliefs are sacred to me. I am protective of them and so are you over your beliefs. I do not concede that I'm not convinced there is no god simply because of that. Y'all just haven't offered anything more appealing!!! So call me delusional , say I have an argument from ignorance I don't care. I'm ignorantly happy, most of the time, and I like it. I have respect for the source of life I call that source God.

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when you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change

Source of life?We call that abiogenesis, lots of theory work and research on it too.

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Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.

Jag you're just wrong. I am not here shoving anything down anybody's throat, if anything that's the other way around. I have been asked many questions and I have answered them. I gave him anger and he didn't like that either.

Nogod's you wouldn't kick back and let folks call you stupid either, nobody will. I'm sick and tired of being criticized for doing what one naturally does. If you don't want people to get defensive don't call them names!!! I have never said "everybody" here was cruel, mainly because of folks like you and traveler, if I did I already apologized for it. Why do you care if I engage Nam. He always comes after me and y'all act like I'm the one. That really strikes me as strange.

Man y'all really need to lighten up. Everybody does. The Christians, the Muslims, The Islamic and yes the atheist. Life is too short and too precious. There is no saving the world. People are going to believe what they want to. All we can do is what we as individuals think right. I don't think it's right to believe in a cruel god and I don't think it's right to be a cruel human.

Median as far as your comments go. I have revealed a lot here. I'm sorry you missed it. I guess in a way you are right. My beliefs are sacred to me. I am protective of them and so are you over your beliefs. I do not concede that I'm not convinced there is no god simply because of that. Y'all just haven't offered anything more appealing!!! So call me delusional , say I have an argument from ignorance I don't care. I'm ignorantly happy, most of the time, and I like it. I have respect for the source of life I call that source God.

Good to know that you are determined to continue missing every point.

No one is trying to convince you of anything, other than that your arguments for the god you believe in are not logical. You are welcome to believe whatever nonsense you want to make up and call god - but you're not going to convince a bunch of people who understand logic that your ideas are right. We're not trying to offer you an alternative, we're telling you that your argument favoring "junebug's god" does not hold up to scrutiny. Scrutiny is not related to your "feelings" about anything.

It could be Thor, or Athena, or JagSpag just as easily as your SPAG god. It's an openly atheist forum, and you show up selling your god - who's shoving what down who's throat? It's the internet, participation is voluntary.

You are the one with something to sell

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“Be skeptical. But when you get proof, accept proof.” –Michael Specter

I was somewhat being facetious with the whole thing. She's been on my ignore list for a month or two now; I'm doing a piss poor job in such execution when I can only read her comments that y'all quote, don't you think?

-Nam

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Quote from: David Garrett Arnold

there are oceans of words aged in prayer,against geometric lines, and cloudbeaten skies;credulous allure—slowly captivated in hearts fair—trees and flowers bloomed in grace upon one's eyes.

JB, I have never called you stupid. I have not criticized you, either. I have tried to take what you say seriously, and have offered suggestions towards a more productive discussion of your ideas on this site.

Several times I have asked you specific questions, which you don't generally answer. I have written long and thoughtful posts which you either ignore entirely, or skim superficially and pick out one word or phrase to respond to out of context.

In the interest of actually having a fun and interesting conversation, I have suggested that you stop engaging with Nam, because that seems to sidetrack the discussion into exchanges of silly insults. If you want to keep on using your time and energy to fight with Nam over whether he thinks you really have cancer, or are an idiot, so be it. We can get you two a padded room.

However, I would rather we use our time and energy to talk about what you believe and why. If you would just focus on that, I would appreciate it.

She's fighting with herself, not me. She's on my ignore. I think I've responded to one of her posts, directly to her, in the last month or so. As I state to Traveler: I only see her comments when y'all quote her.

I speak, she responds, I see nothing but what y'all respond to. It's really easy.