While same day dough approaches can produce dramatically different results during earlier and later times in the day, I think that lunch and dinner doughs between a 24 to 36 hour ferment are going to be pretty similar.

I guess we will have to disagree on this one. I do three day room temp rises all the time and that last 12 hours makes a big difference for me.

I guess we will have to disagree on this one. I do three day room temp rises all the time and that last 12 hours makes a big difference for me.

I completely agree, 12 hours at the margin can make a HUGE difference.

Scott123,When Roberto showed us around Kestea few months ago, my memory is that he talked about 24 hours in bulk and a minimum of another 24 in balls. I remember him telling us that the plan is for 48 in balls and the reason is two-fold: 1) he gets the flavor he wants at 72 hours total (48 hours in balls), and 2) this gives him a safety margin if a batch should fail for some reason - he can bring the most recently balled dough up where it is warmer and use them after only 48 total hours (24 in balls) if necessary.

Scott, are you using yeast for these rises? And what temps are you talking. I really have never stretched out fermentations that long. Sounds quite interesting. What type of yeast percentage are you using to achieve that? Also what flour(s) do you use. -marc

scott123

I guess we will have to disagree on this one. I do three day room temp rises all the time and that last 12 hours makes a big difference for me.

When I do 3 day room temp ferments, there's differences in the last 12 hours, but it's not that dramatic and I work with malted flours. When you remove those enzymes from the picture, the fermentation window widens. As long as you're fermenting at cellar temps (like Roberto does) and using a miniscule amount of yeast, fermentation stays pretty constant and doesn't run away on you towards the end.

The window from 6 to 18 hours is incredibly vast in terms of differences in fermentation. 60 to 72, much less. There's always going to be that optimum hour, that as a home baker, I try to hit, but, on a commercial level, using unmalted flour, 60-72 is acceptable and isn't cheating the customers consuming 60 hour dough.

Now, 24-36 is going to be more dramatic than 60-72 and less dramatic than 6-18. Maybe I missed the mark by saying 24-36, but since Craig's memory is better than mine, Roberto is at 72 (with most likely a 12 hour window), so I still stand by my statement that varying levels of fermentation are not a factor here. Assuming that the oven is at exactly the same temp, if Roberto's lunch pizza has noticeable differences when compare to his dinner pie, I'll eat my hat

Scott, are you using yeast for these rises? And what temps are you talking. I really have never stretched out fermentations that long. Sounds quite interesting. What type of yeast percentage are you using to achieve that? Also what flour(s) do you use. -marc

try .01 fresh yeast. I have done it with the RD 00 as well as caputo. Just make sure its in a cool area (I use my basement) Also, Dont worry if it rises more in the bulk stage than your used to. Good luck!

Scott, I don't know about robertos pizza from lunch to dinner. Are you sure he only does one batch per day? I guess I am really picky, but I only like the super fermented doughs...almost on the verge of death.

Scott, I don't know about robertos pizza from lunch to dinner. Are you sure he only does one batch per day? I guess I am really picky, but I only like the super fermented doughs...almost on the verge of death.

I'm pretty sure he's right about one batch/day, but by the time they get to the oven +/- more than a few hours, I think the qualify as "super fermented."

I know roberto and I are both on the same page of wanting things about to fall off the cliff. Well, now im going to have to try his wonderful pizza twice, once at opening and once at close. Darn, what a bummer

I wish he preached this on more of his consulting gigs. I have heard that even in his own pizzeria (keste) the other pizzaiolos are not taught to use the dough as aged as when roberto himself is there.

john conklin and i visited don antonio's Monday. we took along our wives, za junior,and his girl friend samantha. john, i told you your wife would get along with mine. mine is never lost for words and val seemed to hold her own. i really enjoyed the pizza a lot.the only thing that i personally didn't like was the pizza monitor. took away from a classy joint. i though the appetizers were good but i want to save my carbs for pizza.the exception is the angioletti which was fried pieces of dough topped with seasoned grape tomatoes and arugula. this was delicious and would not eat at don antonio's with out ordering it.i do not remember all of the pizzas by name the margherita was very good the grated cheese was put on heavy and added that sharper taste to the pizza.i loved it. one of our guests , Samantha who is a keste loyalist didn't like it as much as a keste margherita. i had to get a regina margherita to satisfy her craving for pizza margherita, it was very tasty and eaten very quickly. i do remember the sorrentina pizza which was smoked buffalo, sliced lemons,and basil.i think you are supposed to eat the whole lemon,which was good when it was sliced thin enough to cook in under two minute that it is in the oven. the thicker cuts were overpowering.we got a fried pizza style called pizza fritte. this is filled and lightly fried.we got a pizza planeta. this was rectangular half filled with a delicious escarole in half and ricotta in the other half topped tomatoes, basil,and grape tomatoes. delicious !!! i think that might be all we ate.john has pictures he may want to give us his opinion on the visit.

Ok I will chime in. I really enjoyed the visit to Starita this time. Not only was the compant 1st class but the pizza was Great !! My favorite appy was also the Angoiletti. Perfect balance of seasonings and fried dough. We tried fried everything!Rice balls, Popatoes, and Macoroni. Similar flavor of fried with diferent inside. I have a few pics but nothing realy of the fried goodies . Pizza was really good, and its obvious the first time I was there dough was just a little off. This time great! we had i think 5 pies and a few other fried goodies as Laryy mentioned. I also think the lemons should be much thinner as I am not accustomed to eating rind? Matthew ? you eat the whole lemon right ? like Dellavechia thicness factor much better. As with the first time Roberto did not speak much with me or us even though he is freindly with Larry.I am getting a bit of a complex? and there must be some bad feelings somewhere on past posts ?? when we went on the tour he was really cool and gracious host for all ? no biggy heres a few pic. I hope he understands I am just a pizza fanatic and mean no harm

It definitely looks like they worked out their dough/oven issues. That sausage pie looks phenomenal. I wish I could have been there.

Citrus pith, imo, has no place in savory foods. I love orange marmalade on an English muffin just as much as the next chap, but you start giving me pith in something savory, and we're having words.

But that just me. Bitter flavors and I don't mix. I stay away from overly hoppy beers, I like a little coffee with my milk and sugar and I use milk chocolate chips in chocolate chip cookies.

Scott - the trick is to use Meyer lemons, which have a thin pith and are much less acidic than normal lemons. They also have a scent of thyme to them. And you need to use a mandolin to get them paper thin. That pie is always the hit of the bunch with people because it works so well. But I don't think it would work for a longer baked pie.

It definitely looks like they worked out their dough/oven issues. That sausage pie looks phenomenal. I wish I could have been there.

But that's just me. Bitter flavors and I don't mix. I stay away from overly hoppy beers, I like a little coffee with my milk and sugar and I use milk chocolate chips in chocolate chip cookies.

Idios mio.......give me the espressos of Southern Italy. Thick, and speaking of doughs ready to drop off a cliff...the coffee super oily and bitter just almost right at the point of being unpleasant...with a rust colored crema in top. I think I just wet myself thinking of it!

True that! with all respect the commercial environment is a differnt world All together thatn the onsis twosiey at home. Even with my little rinky dink mobile operation to keep it all together fire, dough, production it aint easy! oh yes then beyond the obvious pizza we have those pesky employees, bookings .. you know that business stuff PITA but a critical part no matter the size JOhn