January 11, 2010

Guess the origin of these four composites

ANSWER (15/1/2010):

Russian, Cypriot

Romanian, Spanish

END ANSWER

These were sent to me by an Italian reader of the blog.

You can guess their country of origin, language group (e.g., Slavic, Germanic, Romance, Finno-Ugrian, Greek, etc.), geographical origin (N/S/W/E Europe or W/S/C Asia), or whatever else you can intuit about them.

TL: North-East European: hg. R1a1 (the Asiatic origin is clear from the right eye a little bit closer than the left one)TR: Italian from South Italy: hg. R1b1b2aBL: South East European: hg. J2BR: Spaniard, hg. R1b1b2a1

Polak, I'd be glad to write to you if I know your real name. Perhaps you know I don't like to hide me and others hide themselves.I have always written, also on "dna-forums", that also R1b1b2s have the right eye closer than the left, due to their ancient Asian origin. Of course Eastern R1a1s have more mixture with Asians, like hg. N, then their aspect is more "Asian". I have also supported that probably the ancestors of R1a1, the first wave from Asia present in India, was present also in Rhaetia (DYS392=11), then it isn't said that also East European R1a1 doesn't come from the Italian refugium like R1b1b2 and probably Indo-European languages, linked with Rhaetian-Etruscan. If you send to me your email address, I'll be glad to write to you. Mine is gioiello.tognoni@gmail.com.

I think he was. Generally, I would classify West Europeans (including Southern Europe, and North Europe) in the dolichocephalic category, or as I refer to it, "oval-headed". Obviously, there are exceptions but brachycephaly is not that common.

On the Irish thingy, I'd say that IMO the bottom left guy is not that far from some Irish phenotypes, though Irish faces are normally quite more rugged (deeper nasion for instance). But there is an "alpinoid/CM" tendency in the Islands, which is not necesarily brachi anyhow (I am brachi and I am longfaced too), just broad-faced.

The bottom right guy is probably too dark for Ireland, though in overall face type is not that far maybe. The two top guys are just too clearly oriental.

Per Bauchet'07, Iberian (non-Basque) component is more commonly found in England than in Ireland. Basque component is the opposite. Whatever the case they are minor components in either island.

That doesn't mean that people may not look the same occasionally but must be for some other reasons (like older relations not reflected in autosomal clustering or whatever). What I say about broadfaced blond (or red haired) rather pale Irish is true in my experience. I'd even dare say that darker types might be more common in Great Britain in fact.

I was actually, although for some obscure reason I did think of Ireland quite qickly when I saw the arrangement. I suspect it was the fact that there is quite a diversity even just within Ireland. But no-one I've seen in or from Ireland has such tightly curley hair as a couple of them have. And, as you say, even the top left doesn't really look Irish.

All of whom have dolichocephalic heads and are truly representative of the West European skull shape which seem predominant in North and South Europe as well, as well as among Germans. There are a minority of Irish that do have broad skulls, as well as some West Europeans who fit that category but it is in the minority for sure.

I would rate someone like Aidan Quinn as being typically Irish, and he, like myself, comes from the Center of Ireland - blue eyes, light brown hair, thin lips and/or narrow mouth, narrow nose whether long or short, well developed chin, no brow ridges, relatively close set eyes:http://kateblogsworth.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/aidan_quinn_1013_3.jpg

You get a darker type in the South West, like Roy Keane - who still has the narrow mouth, narrow nose, well developed chin, no brow ridges:http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_jh9PRrif-2c/SKwVWWoBRlI/AAAAAAAAAjI/c-P1aHbM5d4/s400/roy_keane.jpg

Of the 4 images presented, none really has a very narrow nose, all have fuller lips, BL has brow ridges, only BR has closer eyes and a well developed chin.

The list you're posting definitively places Irish in an "Atlantid" (West Med to Nordid) mesocephalic, long-headed continuum. However I was thinking in other not much less representative types like Martin McGuinness, Bertie Ahern or Mary Coughlan, who indeed show a broader face type with "alpinid" affinities, that is not uncommon in Ireland anyhow.

Romanian speaking here. I too found it to be simmilar to a type found in Romania, particularly in the southern areas and among the urban population, which I believe is due to historical (from Roman times up to the Phanariotes) mediterranean influence. Though, as said, found in Romania (e.g. http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&source=hp&q=dragos+bucurenci&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=7slNS4zLH5yI_Abiv_mfDg&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=4&ved=0CCsQsAQwAw), I nonetheless classified it as Balkan (but not Greek, as it doesn't exhibit the saggy eyelids and cheeks I associate with Eastern Mediterraneans), since it was the bottom left picture which bears a striking similarity to a type very commonly found in Romania, particularly in the countryside (but I admit that they will rather tend to be more brachi (dinarid?) than the alpinid type presented above)

I know the answers by now and nope (that doesn't mean that he does not have some Greek blood). He's kinda cute indeed but maybe is the smile and the artificial "perfection" created by the illusory composite.

Anyhow, I want Dienekes to post the answers officially, because I want to make a remark and I'm biting my tongue already for too many hours. :)

BR is beautiful, (and TR isn't bad either!) and I can't see him as anything other than Italian, unless perhaps from southern France or Iberia. Actually, other than TL I think you could find all of them in one part or another of the Italian peninsula or islands. Even TL is not that different from some of the Italians in the Istria area. If I had to choose different areas. TL Slavic of some sort, TR southern, or southeastern Europe (southern Italy, Greece or Turkey), BL, central Europe(Slovakia, even Austria?

I said before I wanted to make a remark as soon as the answers were officially posted, and this is how extremely different are the Romanian and the Spaniard averages!

I say because for example a "Romance" classification, as suggested in the original post would have been totally misleading. And I still have vague memories of Dienekes defending blood closeness between these two extremely different (within Europe) populations just because they speak related tongues (supposedly related to Roman genetic and not just cultural and political expansion). These composites evidence that Romanians cluster with Central or Eastern Europeans and not at all with SW Europeans.

Yeah, and I actually called the Romanian face (and two others, approximately) in the second post of the thread.

The Spanish face and the Portuguese from the other group (understandably) look quite similar. Although I maintain that there is something northern Alpine about the Spanish face - you can see similar (although with a bit German-ness mixed in) faces from Switzerland to East Bavaria, and even North into Saxony. See, e.g., Michael Ballack: http://images.teamsugar.com/files/users/1/17989/29_2007/HBWrxAqJ_Pxgen_r_467xA.jpg

The Spaniard blend's apportions are very similar to the Hungarian of the other thread, just that the Hungarian is blonder.

The Portuguese blend is also similar to the Spaniard (how can't it) but I find it a little more "Greek" (in fact the blend reminds me to Dienekes in one of his avatars somewhat), that's why I think I called him "undefined South European".

The Romanian and the Polish are also very similar. And the Israeli of the other thread I was tempted to say "Palestinian" though I opted for "North African but maybe too light". How many Arab players does the Israeli selection have?

And the Israeli of the other thread I was tempted to say "Palestinian" though I opted for "North African but maybe too light". How many Arab players does the Israeli selection have?

Exactly my thoughts - although the players may just (as in many sports and many countries) come from slightly underprivileged portions of the society, and thus e.g. not represent Ashkenazim very well.

Soccer players don't necessarily represent the entire society very well. For another example, until recently, there were few players from the the Eastern German states in the Bundesliga (with Ballack being one notable exceptions).

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