However I don't see a reason why people shouldn't take the H1N1 vaccine. Ok the guy is making money from this... However Vaccines have a rather poor profit returns (expensive to make and sold with low margins) It would seem like if he was really corrupt he would do something with higher margins. However for someone who is interested in healthcare it wouldn't be surprising that he had investments in healthcare. Just like I am sure many of you have investments in Tech Companies...

Ok the guy is making money from this... However Vaccines have a rather poor profit returns (expensive to make and sold with low margins) It would seem like if he was really corrupt he would do something with higher margins.

It's not hard to understand. If he did something "really corrupt" he would be fined or go to jail. If he does something marginally corrupt then morons will go around defending him saying he "isn't that corrupt" and then he'll get away with it. It's all about risk to reward ratios. Sure he won't make significant money but there is nearly no risk.

In Britain, apparently a large number of doctors and nurses are refusing to take the H1N1 vaccine. I don't understand the arguments for and against, but if the people who know about these things don't want it, why should I take it?

However I don't see a reason why people shouldn't take the H1N1 vaccine.

I'll give you a reason. The one and only time I got a flu shot I had the worst flu of my life and had it for almost two weeks.I was usually was over the flu, when I even got it, in 3 days. I haven't had it in 5 or 6 years now and have no reason to risk getting it again from the shot.

Considering they've already had over 1,000 people die [msn.com] of Swine Flu so far this year in the US alone, why would anyone really need to question this? There is no natural immunity to N1H1. It also affects young adults more than any other group (and need I say a very mobile crowd), with a much higher chance of spreading the disease in colleges, schools, and just in general.

And not even as often as claimed, either. Usually the fear-inducing headline is "SWINE FLU KILLS A CHILD" and then you find out they were immunocompromised and/or actually died of pneumonia or some other complication. Yes, the secondary illness was likely caused by the body already being weakened by the H1N1, but it could have just as easily happened with regular flu, bronchitis, any number of things that affect the respiratory system. And yes, it is tragic when anyone dies this way, but it doesn't justify

The published influenza effectiveness studies are extremely flawed, they consist of what is called cohort studies and the source of the flaw is what is called the healthy patient effect. These studies take a population of persons who have died while having the flu or flu like symptoms and determining which had received a flu vaccine and which hadn't, and they universally show that people who had a flu shot are 50% less likely to die of the Flu or a Flu like illness. What they leave out is in the years where

Tell you what. Instead of spending my time "rebutting" the unending stream of drivel that I'm sure you can dredge up, I'll just give you this advice:

If you'd like to make your medical decisions based on contrarian rants from ninteen twenty-three, be my guest. Please feel free to abstain from then-nonexistent antibiotics. Heck, feel free to discard the entire "germ theory of disease." The more thoroughly you reject the benefits of modern medicine, the sooner the gene pool will be rid of you.

I've read suggestions to make people (kids in particular) get vaccinations before but frankly I have never been comfortable with the concept. When you start telling people that they must put something foreign into their bodies at what point exactly does it stop?

Plus what happens if this vaccine turns out to have nasty side effects? Is the state who mandated it responsible or will they just wash their hands and say - "You had a choice!" That's what they tried to do after all the medication they made soliders take in the first gulf war turned out to have serious long term side effects.

Going into crazy paranoia zone here now, but how long until RFID chips (which have already been linked to cancer) will be mandatory for government employees for "security reasons?"

Currently they are recommending children with underlaying medical issues get vaccinated first (asthma, MD) and women in their third trimester. Both because they are those who are dying at the highest rates. All the reputable medical sites/doctors say the H1N1 vaccine will have the same risks as normal flu vaccine- as they are both made exactly the same way. There is nothing about this strain of virus that makes the vaccine more dangerous. They are even offering versions without the normal preservative (whic

Many naturally wonder how real the threat is considering how many months we've been told the sky is falling.

Umm, dude, we haven't even entered the northern hemisphere flu season, yet, and we've already hit the average number of pediatric flu deaths for a normal year. Is the sky falling? No (you can blame the media, as always for perpetuating that idea). But there most definitely is cause for concern.

Most reports are that swine flu has been mild compared to the typical in most individuals. This includes reports that some exposed have never developed any symptom. The reported numbers for swine flu rely on the presumption of swine flu rather than the regular seasonal flu, not actual tests. That is, died so must have been swine flu.

What evidence there is suggests that children and the elderly should have priority for vaccination (greater potential benefit for the same risk). Healthy adults should be at the end of the list.

Meanwhile, none of the reports of flu death statistics are based on an actual count. They are all extrapolations and estimates based on 'facts' that are supported mostly by the statistics they support.

A big hint of that was a report that the 5000 worldwide deaths is an estimate because various authorities have stopped counting. Hrmm, only 5000 and it's too many to count or only 5000 so it's not significant enough to count?

And of course, the last time the swine flu was going to kill us all, the vaccine turned out to have serious side effects (for reasons never determined) and the swine flue never went beyond a single military base.

Nevertheless, I was mostly pointing out that being made by the same process doesn't mean the risk is exactly the same and that in any event, double the vaccinations means double the risks. I didn't actually comment on the risk/benefit analysis at all.

Most reports are that swine flu has been mild compared to the typical in most individuals. This includes reports that some exposed have never developed any symptom. The reported numbers for swine flu rely on the presumption of swine flu rather than the regular seasonal flu, not actual tests. That is, died so must have been swine flu.

What evidence there is suggests that children and the elderly should have priority for vaccination (greater potential benefit for the same risk). Healthy adults should be at the

Double the vaccinations = double the risk. They are for different antigens, so it's not just a double dose of the same thing.

The normal seasonal flu vaccine typically has 3 different strains in it, if the wasn't the rush to get the H1N1 vaccine out as soon as possible it would have went into the seasonal vaccine and nobody would have thought anything about it.

Point noted. But we're talking about a communicable disease here. The point of vaccination is to prevent spread of the disease to vulnerable populations. Workers with direct patient contact in hospitals should be doing what they can to ensure that they themselves are not spreading disease!

Going into crazy paranoia zone here now, but how long until RFID chips (which have already been linked to cancer) will be mandatory for government employees for "security reasons?"

I only found one study. That study was in Sept 2007, no news stories since then. Until it's confirmed by an independent study, I don't know if it's legitimate to say there is a link. Besides, RFID works using non-ionizing radiation (i.e. doesn't break molecules or DNA), not sure how there can be cancer, at least with the RF part.

RFID works using non-ionizing radiation (i.e. doesn't break molecules or DNA), not sure how there can be cancer, at least with the RF part.

It doesn't have to be related to the RF. Cells contacting the foreign material of the RFID container can become damaged and that can lead to all kinds of problems, including cancer. link [immuneweb.org]

Firstly, you have a say, ALWAYS. Governments aren't there to control the people (while you may let them, it's not the case), short of said governments tearing up constitutions and so forth you can always fight back.

Secondly, there are KNOWN side effects with this vaccine, they are clearly stated prior to vaccination (at least here in Australia) as required by law - just the same as all vaccines.

I really don't get where these paranoid delusions suggesting that the government is something to fear. Sure, they

So, the "scandal" here is that his wife works for Golman Sachs and that pharma stocks are overpriced? Somehow mandating that healthcare workers get vaccinated against a new flu is somehow a huge conspiracy to profit for them how? I recognize that the tin-foil-hat brigade has kicked onto high alert over H1N1 vaccination, but this is stupid. This is front page material how?

TFA is claiming that mandating the flu vaccine would net quite a bit of profit for whatever pharmaceutical company manufactures them and since Goldman Sachs likely invests in said company, they'd stand to gain indirectly from the mandate and therefore so would the husband/wife pushing the flu mandate. But I agree with you. It looks like TFA's claims are a bit of a stretch. These employees work with people who are often immuno-compromised and getting infected with H1/N1 could kill them.

It does point to an increasing problem when a large proportion of public officials have personal stakes in many of the firms that might be affected by decisions they make. The US Supreme Court has actually declined to take a few cases that they might otherwise have taken because too many justices held stock in one of the companies, meaning that they'd have to recuse themselves.

Reading the site that is linked, they don't even have any tangible evidence that there is something going on. A lot of guilt by association innuendo, six degrees of separation connections, and 'what if' type questions.

The CDC says it's because of the shortage of the vaccine. I'll trust them, for the time being, over a biased right-wing radio station.

Except in this case the guy's wife works for a company that indirectly makes a profit from owning stock at the widget factory. She herself doesn't work at the widget factory, and won't directly profit from anything the widget factory produces. She works for a company that owns stock in practically every type of business out there.

So should the guy have to research every aspect of the company his wife works for, including everything they have invested in, before he makes a decision related to health car

Think of it this way - my wife makes widgets for sale. I am in a position to require a large block of people to buy widgets. I do so.

No, it's more like - My wife works for a company that invests in hundreds of other companies, a few of which make seat belts for sale. I am in a position to require all cars to come with seat belts. My wife wouldn't profit much from the mandatory requirement of seat belts in cars as most cars will come with a seat belt anyway, plus it's likely to benefit in the well being of society to make seat belts mandatory. I do so.

We've been seeing tons and tons of articles like this recently on slashdot. There's a consistent anti-vaccine slant on all of them. I'm guessing that there's some small group of antivaccine crazies who are active on the firehose, and they consistently vote up each other's stories.

We've been seeing tons and tons of articles like this recently on slashdot. There's a consistent anti-vaccine slant on all of them. I'm guessing that there's some small group of antivaccine crazies who are active on the firehose, and they consistently vote up each other's stories.

Understanding the science behind the vaccine, isn't the same thing as believing it's the 'second coming'. Anti-Vaxx idiots have every right to voice their views, no matter how crazy and dangerous they are, but the rest of us also have the right to voice ours.

Have I even stated my position on the matter? And it's funny that my previous post got modded down. Was it too neutral sounding?

The chance of a complication from one of these vaccines (real complications, not some bullshit that Joe's sister's cousin's friend's coworker had) is the same as getting hit by lightning on the way home from the doctor. And most of those are due to allergies.

What if you know yourself to already be allergic to things? The probability of complication depends on how much you know abo

Mandatory vaccines in hospitals make a lot of sense. You don't want a doctor or nurse showing up to work in the ICU and spreading the flu. It is really common sense. For those people who claimed that requiring a vaccine was some sort of invasion of their civil rights, most medical workers I know have to take a lot of vaccines when they start they start the job. Hell, I had a list of vaccines I had to have just to go to college.

As a health worker, your first responsibility is to your patients, and getting the flu shot is part of that.

"Mandatory vaccines in hospitals make a lot of sense. It is really common sense."

Prove it.

Are there any long term studies that show what affects there are on humans from repeated, yearly flu vaccinations? Just claiming it is "common sense" --without any data or facts to support your claim-- doesn't make it so. Don't confuse my query with other types of vaccines that have long established saftey record.

"As a health worker, your first responsibility is to your patients, and getting the flu shot is part of that."

I am a health care worker. I've been busting my ass on a New York City ambulance for the last 13 years. No, my "first responsibility" is *not* to my patients, it is to my partner and I. Since day one of _any_ training curriculum that I have ever completed the lesson has _always_ been "scene safety". Is it safe for my colleague and I to proceed and help? If not, do not proceed until it is safe to do so. In the extreme hypothetical situation where you died in the 3 seconds that it took to me to don a pair of latex gloves, can I be faulted? Absolutely not. So, is it safe for me to get these vaccines on a yearly mandatory basis? We just don't know.

Shit, I can't believe what a stink people are making about this flu. There are a thousand other areas of infection control people should be worried about *before* the masses start getting hysterical about mandatory health care worker vaccinations. You would not believe how basic hygiene and cleanliness are sorely lacking in today's (I work in New York City) health care environment. Simple things, like wiping down the blood pressure cuff or the EKG leads between patients with hospital grade disinfectant wipes, are rarely done. Physicians who won't wash their hands between putting their bare hands on a patient's skin. Stretchers and gurneys that have obvious, gross dried blood on the railings because "housekeeping" only does a cursory wipe of the gurney mattress.

This is not an epidemic or pandemic. The CDC nor the WHO have suggested nor required mandatory vaccinations. Nor has any other state of the union. You and I are one of many of millions of organisms that live, adapt, and co-exist with one another on this planet. No one has ever guaranteed you a long and prosperous life. You are born into this world and you takes your chances; viruses, fungus's, parasites, cancers, warts and all.

You have every right to request a health care provider that meets your specific criteria, e.g., being a Harvard M.D. or having been vaccinated against swine flu, but you don't have the right to request that I be forced to inject something into my body that I am uncomfortable with.

I appreciate the work you do but you're no where near qualified to give a definitive answer on the topic you're writing about.

In order to try to get you to refuse vaccination, the anti-vaccination propagandists will often try to convince you that vaccines are unsafe. They will tell you that vaccines cause debilitating disease and sickness. However, such claims ignore the medical literature, which says something quite different. Before I tell you how we know that vaccines are safe, let me spend a moment disc

It varies state to state, but these are in general the required college immunizations.

The Commonwealth of Massachusetts has a law that requires all students to provide documentation of immunizations for tetanus and diphtheria (Td), measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) with 2 MMR shots documented and a series of three (3) hepatitis B shots given over a 6-month period. Meningitis vaccinations are required for all new students arriving on campus, whether or not they live at Fisher.

However, vaccines against the flu will never even make the smallest dent against the infection (in general).

Is it supposed to? I used to get the damned flu at least once a year until I started regular annual vaccinations. The last straw was the motherfucking Beijing flu that I caught as a healthy, regularly-exercising, eating-right 29 year old. Knocked me flat on my back for ten goddamn days. Fever went over 104.. People said they called and talked to me on the phone- I couldn't even remember that. I probably should have been hospitalized. When I was better I discovered all sorts of bizarre things I did around th

In all the media hype there is not one word mentioned of the Pharmaceutical companies involved. Why? Could they be holding out for a better price? That's just good business isn't it? Has America traded its children's future for the promise from a Grinning Show Off with an out stretched hand? There to many dead to ignore these kinds of questions.

Either H1N1 is so serious that we do need a vaccine. Or it's ok to delay vaccinations while we get the finances sorted out. Something smells. And speaking as someone who has had it... all I can say is that it really doesn't seem much worse than regular flu. My only conclusion is that there's a bunch of people making a whole load of money off our fears. Global financial meltdown, H1N1... what's next? We need to give up another few trillion to save ourselves from a plague of locusts? Oh... too late for that o

The corruption angle here might be a good reason to investigate the interest-conflicted doctor, and perhaps take back their ill-gotten gain if that's what's happening. But there's no basis to freak out about mandatory vaccination of health workers.

Waiters and other employees in restaurants are required to wash their hands, because their job puts them at higher risk of both getting and passing on disease to customers and fellow workers. The same risk management is necessary for health workers, who are much m

And I'd give anything for one right now. My current employer has dropped promised raises, dropped promised bonuses, and is currently telling us we can't use our grandfathered vacation (despite that being illegal in WA state- its pay or let us take it here). The reasons for needing them aren't as desperate as they were in the days of child labor and 16 hour workdays, but they aren't gone. Until greed is wiped out of humanity (in other words, never) management with power will always seek to abuse those wh

However unlike the late 1800s and the early to mid 1900s we have a choice for different jobs. If you are unhappy with your work environment look for new work. Even in this economy you can probably find a job that you will be happier in then it would take the Union to "negotiate" for you. Now for this case chances are your company is not doing to well. So your dropped promised raises and bonuses probably saved your job. Now during Union talks what do you think will happen... Sure they may have fought to

It has nothing to do with socialism. The Teamsters were greedy liars and cheats. They wanted nothing more than power and money for the higher-ups in the organization and didn't give a rats ass about the members.

When there are no unions, as in the industrial revolution, the owners were raping the workers. Now the unions have too much control and refuse to vote down wages and benefits during a recession..

Yea the idea that Unions are no longer relevant you bring up a 100 year old example. That is all I really hear about pro union Hundred year examples. Come on lets face it you got brained washed by the schools with Unioned teachers. They never cover the negatives of unions, they just make anyone who opposes them s

I'll tell you I work in the healthcare industry and I'm usually pretty libertarian in my view point but the insurance industry and the malpractice industry is sucking up 70-80% of the healthcare dollar today. Even I am starting to think that even the government could fuck it up any worse.

I fail to see how government control will stop Malpractice suits. As for Insurance for my point of view is that they need to follow better standards. Their ANSI files for sending claims (Which is a different standard then the terminal emulation) are slightly different for every insurance company. Then methods for sending them electronically ranges from old DialUp BBS's sending the claims via X-Modem to sending it via Https. Or you got other stupid solutions such as using a modem to dial into a VPN tunnel

Labor unions are about the only thing keeping the middle class alive (albeit on life support) here in the US Unfortunately the problem is the middle class has changed. 50 years ago Middle class was an uneducated workforce who is willing to work hard for a living. Modern Society no longer needs these people as much. We need educated people willing to work hard. So what happened to the middle class was they slipped down to lower class because they are not needed anymore. The people they need now are edu

The NY State Unions are Outraged that their employer wants to keep its workforce healthy

I am usually as anti-union as they come but this is case where I see them actually doing some good. We don't generally have the abusive employer-employee relationships we had in the past, but your employer insisting you inject something into your body certainly counts!

Its one of the most perverse violations of rights in recent times! We are supposed to be secure in the right of our person.

Now that this has been declared a federal emergency by the big O, I fully expect other groups of people to be "requi

If you have direct patient contact, you should be doing all you can to keep your patients from getting more sick. That means getting your vaccines and getting tests for certain diseases. Or do you think TB testing shouldn't be mandatory for front-line hospital workers as they are now?

Alternatively, they are outraged that the State can force someone to accept an elective medical treatment that may violate their religious convictions or may simply be a case where they are not convinced of it's safety or that it's benefits outweigh the risks. It hardly matters who agrees or disagrees with their assessment, it's THEIR body, not the state's.

There are a lot of people who consider their own body the last refuge of personal freedom and have deep philosophical objections to it's violation by the

Not to mention that some people are allergic to the flu shot. As it is made using eggs, anyone allergic to eggs can get a severe allergic reaction [wikipedia.org] to the flu shot, including death. Some how I doubt all hospital workers are not allergic to eggs.

President Obama was injected in a public display, but how can you be sure it was the same vaccine they are giving to everyone else.
The military are all required to get the flu injection, and this year the H1N1. Congress is optional, don't know if many did.

I don't really see why you're conflating this with abortion, and then heaping the blame on liberals. It strikes me as very disingenuous to even compare the two things. You were vaccinated as an infant against diseases, do you also consider that to be a violation of your privacy rights? To me it doesn't seem like a bad idea to have health care workers, in a heavily populated city like New York, to be vaccinated against something they'll likely be exposed to.

To me this looks more like 'six degrees of separation' being made by a local right-wing radio station.

Rice University has a vaccine production researcher that suggests last year's "wrong strain" vaccine increased one's chances of getting H1N1 this year because the "antigenetic distance" yields wrongly targeted (dud) antibodies.

Respected researchers' report from Canada say the odds for getting H1N1 this year were doubled for recipients of last year's flu shot.

I work at a company which deals with live infectious diseases every day. In order to even enter certain buildings on campus, you have to have the appropriate immunizations for the diseases being researched in that building. Our badges have colored stripes on the back indicating what vaccinations you've received (the vaccine name is also written inside the colored stripe, for colorblind individuals).

If you're tech support or facilities, you basically need every common vaccination that's out there because y

Do alot of health care workers in NYC hospitals have unprotected sex with their patients? Slippery Slope arguments are bullshit, and this is a fine example of why.

The population isn't being forced in to taking the virus. This is only in regards to people working at hospitals, where they are exposed to the virus, and working around patients with weak immune systems.

The reason vaccinations are mandated is because each person serves as a potential vessel to spread the disease to many other people. Your choice of whether or not to take it is something that affects us all.

I agree we should have a choice about what goes into our bodies, but this is the reasoning, and its not without merit.

The same people who say that women must have free access to abortion, because they have the right to say what they do with their bodies, are now saying that NYS health care workers don't have the right to say what they do with their bodies with regards to a vaccine?

Well yes, but it's different - the workers aren't all women. Seriously that would be the first argument if they were - sexual discrimination.

Why is it that liberals say that a woman has the right to decide whether or not she gets an abortion

Why is it that liberals say that a woman has the right to decide whether or not she gets an abortion because it's her body, but say that health care workers don't have the right to decide whether or not they get vaccines, even though it's their body?????

I don't think the comparison holds quite so simply. Abortion isn't a viral disease, the flu bug is something a health care worker can spread by getting infected before they're aware that they are infected. In that case, it's not just the health care worker's body, it's everyone they come in contact with, and a lot of those they come in contact with may have compromised immune systems. I don't think it's just a matter of washing, if you do get infected, your body becomes a walking factory for the virus.

They chose to work in a hospital. Hospitals need to prevent the spread of disease to their already ill patients. This is common sense. Every health care contract should have an immunization clause, and if they don't, it needs to be put in. If you don't want the shot, you are free to quit.

How is that like abortion?

I don't have to get a shot, because I don't work in a hospital. But I also have asthma, and I'm not a moron. So I'm getting the shot.

The same people who say that women must have free access to abortion, because they have the right to say what they do with their bodies, are now saying that NYS health care workers don't have the right to say what they do with their bodies with regards to a vaccine?

Yes, because these people chose to be health workers; there is no way to become on without making a deliberate decision to do so. If you don't like mandatory vaccination, then don't be a health worker.

The same people who say that women must have free access to abortion, because they have the right to say what they do with their bodies, are now saying that NYS health care workers don't have the right to say what they do with their bodies with regards to a vaccine?

When a woman gets an abortion, only she and the fetus are affected.

When a health worker, WHO WORKES A JOB WHERE THEY WILL COME IN CONTACT WITH INFECTED PEOPLE, refuses to get a shot to prevent the spread of an infection...that affects their

This is, just as the top poster says, anti-vaccine hysteria from people who think their gut beats experts, research, fact. We're the only developed country that has this problem...the rest of the world, hell, even the Catholic church has accepted Evolution, yet nutjobs came out of the woodwork and demanded it's false and constantly challenge its teaching. Then we had the anti-global-warming nutjobs. Now it's anti-vaccine nutjobs.

What's next? Square Earth? We're the pivoting point of the universe? Why is it that it feels like only America has all the idiots who deny the obvious, proven, fact?

Clearly you have never read about issues in other countries. There are skeptics of global warming worldwide, there are critics of the teaching of evolution worldwide (or other widely accepted facts). There are plenty of anti-vaccine groups worldwide.

Additionally there are an ample supply of elitist snobs like you whom feel anyone who disagrees with them must simply be an "idiot" who "denies obvious, proven fact" and attempts to establish this point with strawman arguments.

Great point there. Also look at the source of this "article". A local right-wing radio station, with nothing in their article except innuendo, six-degrees-of-separation finger pointing, with no real evidence of any wrongdoing at all. I think their main problem with the commissioner is that he was appointed by a Democrat.