ok I didn't get thorough all your arguments. so I'll just start with this one.

Matthew 3:13"Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him."

Jesus went out of His way to John the Baptist to be baptized and said it was necessary for us fulfill all righteousness. Are we better than Jesus that we don't need baptism? And some people believe baptism isn't necessary? I'm thinking Jesus would highly disagree.

Maybe I have misunderstood you. Are you for or against immersion is essential for salvation? From your post, it seems that you are arguing for it. First, we must remember that Jesus desired to do the will of His Father always. Thus, He was to fulfill all righteousness (obeying God's commands) - Ps. 119:172. To obey God's commands is to be righteous in God's sight. Jesus' situation is different from our situation in that He had no sin (1 Pet. 2:21,22). We are sinful beings (Rom. 3:23). Therefore, we are in need of salvation. As I have argued in the debate, there are certain steps of faith and obedience that one must do in order to have access to Christ's blood which is able to cleanse us from our sins which is by God's grace.

Maybe I have misunderstood you. Are you for or against immersion is essential for salvation? From your post, it seems that you are arguing for it. First, we must remember that Jesus desired to do the will of His Father always. Thus, He was to fulfill all righteousness (obeying God's commands) - Ps. 119:172. To obey God's commands is to be righteous in God's sight. Jesus' situation is different from our situation in that He had no sin (1 Pet. 2:21,22). We are sinful beings (Rom. 3:23). Therefore, we are in need of salvation. As I have argued in the debate, there are certain steps of faith and obedience that one must do in order to have access to Christ's blood which is able to cleanse us from our sins which is by God's grace.

I am for, I'm sorry I didn't fully read your debate. I just thought you might do better in here and break down your arguments. I didn't think people would take such long debates, I could be wrong about that. But I am against your first debate.

yes, I was asking logic what he was talking about. He said no water needed so i was confused I thought all Christians used water. I know some don't always do immersion though.I agree with the OP that it must me immersion.... Just encase i didn't make myself clear im doing alot of that today. I should probably get off this site for the rest of the day.

Maybe I have misunderstood you. Are you for or against immersion is essential for salvation? From your post, it seems that you are arguing for it. First, we must remember that Jesus desired to do the will of His Father always. Thus, He was to fulfill all righteousness (obeying God's commands) - Ps. 119:172. To obey God's commands is to be righteous in God's sight. Jesus' situation is different from our situation in that He had no sin (1 Pet. 2:21,22). We are sinful beings (Rom. 3:23). Therefore, we are in need of salvation. As I have argued in the debate, there are certain steps of faith and obedience that one must do in order to have access to Christ's blood which is able to cleanse us from our sins which is by God's grace.

The sacraments are a gift - unearned.

I've heard this before - but it doesn't make sense that we would require a savior if we were able to aquire our salvation on our own.

Please provide scripture for these step we need to take?

the scripture you referenced(rom. 3:23) goes on to tell us more:

"21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."

So if this was freely given to us, what steps would there need be?

: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.

Maybe I have misunderstood you. Are you for or against immersion is essential for salvation? From your post, it seems that you are arguing for it. First, we must remember that Jesus desired to do the will of His Father always. Thus, He was to fulfill all righteousness (obeying God's commands) - Ps. 119:172. To obey God's commands is to be righteous in God's sight. Jesus' situation is different from our situation in that He had no sin (1 Pet. 2:21,22). We are sinful beings (Rom. 3:23). Therefore, we are in need of salvation. As I have argued in the debate, there are certain steps of faith and obedience that one must do in order to have access to Christ's blood which is able to cleanse us from our sins which is by God's grace.

The sacraments are a gift - unearned.

I've heard this before - but it doesn't make sense that we would require a savior if we were able to aquire our salvation on our own.

Please provide scripture for these step we need to take?

the scripture you referenced(rom. 3:23) goes on to tell us more:

"21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."

So if this was freely given to us, what steps would there need be?

Wow...Sacraments are those things of earth given a new significance through the incarnatioin....ie A Bath...w/o JC it is just a bath

Maybe I have misunderstood you. Are you for or against immersion is essential for salvation? From your post, it seems that you are arguing for it. First, we must remember that Jesus desired to do the will of His Father always. Thus, He was to fulfill all righteousness (obeying God's commands) - Ps. 119:172. To obey God's commands is to be righteous in God's sight. Jesus' situation is different from our situation in that He had no sin (1 Pet. 2:21,22). We are sinful beings (Rom. 3:23). Therefore, we are in need of salvation. As I have argued in the debate, there are certain steps of faith and obedience that one must do in order to have access to Christ's blood which is able to cleanse us from our sins which is by God's grace.

The sacraments are a gift - unearned.

I've heard this before - but it doesn't make sense that we would require a savior if we were able to aquire our salvation on our own.

Please provide scripture for these step we need to take?

the scripture you referenced(rom. 3:23) goes on to tell us more:

"21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."

So if this was freely given to us, what steps would there need be?

Wow...Sacraments are those things of earth given a new significance through the incarnatioin....ie A Bath...w/o JC it is just a bath

Maybe I have misunderstood you. Are you for or against immersion is essential for salvation? From your post, it seems that you are arguing for it. First, we must remember that Jesus desired to do the will of His Father always. Thus, He was to fulfill all righteousness (obeying God's commands) - Ps. 119:172. To obey God's commands is to be righteous in God's sight. Jesus' situation is different from our situation in that He had no sin (1 Pet. 2:21,22). We are sinful beings (Rom. 3:23). Therefore, we are in need of salvation. As I have argued in the debate, there are certain steps of faith and obedience that one must do in order to have access to Christ's blood which is able to cleanse us from our sins which is by God's grace.

The sacraments are a gift - unearned.

I've heard this before - but it doesn't make sense that we would require a savior if we were able to aquire our salvation on our own.

Please provide scripture for these step we need to take?

the scripture you referenced(rom. 3:23) goes on to tell us more:

"21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."

So if this was freely given to us, what steps would there need be?

Wow...Sacraments are those things of earth given a new significance through the incarnatioin....ie A Bath...w/o JC it is just a bath

so do you not believe in baptism?

Let us get a few things straight...Belief is that which transcends proof. Thus, I believe in God and as part of that Faith have other beliefs based on theological understanding. Knowledge is based on fact. Inasmuch as people are baptized it is not a question of 'believe in". Next....Baptism is, in orthodox traditions, A SACRAMENT, as such see above. If a theology holds it not to be a sacrament it serves no purpose but to make the individual feel good. I suggest your mothers cooking....it will probably work better.

Maybe I have misunderstood you. Are you for or against immersion is essential for salvation? From your post, it seems that you are arguing for it. First, we must remember that Jesus desired to do the will of His Father always. Thus, He was to fulfill all righteousness (obeying God's commands) - Ps. 119:172. To obey God's commands is to be righteous in God's sight. Jesus' situation is different from our situation in that He had no sin (1 Pet. 2:21,22). We are sinful beings (Rom. 3:23). Therefore, we are in need of salvation. As I have argued in the debate, there are certain steps of faith and obedience that one must do in order to have access to Christ's blood which is able to cleanse us from our sins which is by God's grace.

The sacraments are a gift - unearned.

I've heard this before - but it doesn't make sense that we would require a savior if we were able to aquire our salvation on our own.

Please provide scripture for these step we need to take?

the scripture you referenced(rom. 3:23) goes on to tell us more:

"21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."

So if this was freely given to us, what steps would there need be?

Wow...Sacraments are those things of earth given a new significance through the incarnatioin....ie A Bath...w/o JC it is just a bath

so do you not believe in baptism?

Let us get a few things straight...Belief is that which transcends proof. Thus, I believe in God and as part of that Faith have other beliefs based on theological understanding. Knowledge is based on fact. Inasmuch as people are baptized it is not a question of 'believe in". Next....Baptism is, in orthodox traditions, A SACRAMENT, as such see above. If a theology holds it not to be a sacrament it serves no purpose but to make the individual feel good. I suggest your mothers cooking....it will probably work better.

Maybe I have misunderstood you. Are you for or against immersion is essential for salvation? From your post, it seems that you are arguing for it. First, we must remember that Jesus desired to do the will of His Father always. Thus, He was to fulfill all righteousness (obeying God's commands) - Ps. 119:172. To obey God's commands is to be righteous in God's sight. Jesus' situation is different from our situation in that He had no sin (1 Pet. 2:21,22). We are sinful beings (Rom. 3:23). Therefore, we are in need of salvation. As I have argued in the debate, there are certain steps of faith and obedience that one must do in order to have access to Christ's blood which is able to cleanse us from our sins which is by God's grace.

The sacraments are a gift - unearned.

I've heard this before - but it doesn't make sense that we would require a savior if we were able to aquire our salvation on our own.

Please provide scripture for these step we need to take?

the scripture you referenced(rom. 3:23) goes on to tell us more:

"21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."

So if this was freely given to us, what steps would there need be?

Wow...Sacraments are those things of earth given a new significance through the incarnatioin....ie A Bath...w/o JC it is just a bath

so do you not believe in baptism?

Let us get a few things straight...Belief is that which transcends proof. Thus, I believe in God and as part of that Faith have other beliefs based on theological understanding. Knowledge is based on fact. Inasmuch as people are baptized it is not a question of 'believe in". Next....Baptism is, in orthodox traditions, A SACRAMENT, as such see above. If a theology holds it not to be a sacrament it serves no purpose but to make the individual feel good. I suggest your mothers cooking....it will probably work better.

Ok no need to get mad I didn't know some Christians didn't do Baptism

1. Not mad, or even angry2. I believe in "Baptism for the remission of sin(s)" (the quote are important)3. Believe in Baptism is an incorrect use of two terms.4. Many who claim to be Christian are not5. For a list of essential Christian beliefs see the Nicean Creed, Apostles Creed, etc. these contain the basics.

Maybe I have misunderstood you. Are you for or against immersion is essential for salvation? From your post, it seems that you are arguing for it. First, we must remember that Jesus desired to do the will of His Father always. Thus, He was to fulfill all righteousness (obeying God's commands) - Ps. 119:172. To obey God's commands is to be righteous in God's sight. Jesus' situation is different from our situation in that He had no sin (1 Pet. 2:21,22). We are sinful beings (Rom. 3:23). Therefore, we are in need of salvation. As I have argued in the debate, there are certain steps of faith and obedience that one must do in order to have access to Christ's blood which is able to cleanse us from our sins which is by God's grace.

The sacraments are a gift - unearned.

I've heard this before - but it doesn't make sense that we would require a savior if we were able to aquire our salvation on our own.

Please provide scripture for these step we need to take?

the scripture you referenced(rom. 3:23) goes on to tell us more:

"21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."

So if this was freely given to us, what steps would there need be?

Wow...Sacraments are those things of earth given a new significance through the incarnatioin....ie A Bath...w/o JC it is just a bath

so do you not believe in baptism?

Let us get a few things straight...Belief is that which transcends proof. Thus, I believe in God and as part of that Faith have other beliefs based on theological understanding. Knowledge is based on fact. Inasmuch as people are baptized it is not a question of 'believe in". Next....Baptism is, in orthodox traditions, A SACRAMENT, as such see above. If a theology holds it not to be a sacrament it serves no purpose but to make the individual feel good. I suggest your mothers cooking....it will probably work better.

Ok no need to get mad I didn't know some Christians didn't do Baptism

1. Not mad, or even angry2. I believe in "Baptism for the remission of sin(s)" (the quote are important)3. Believe in Baptism is an incorrect use of two terms.4. Many who claim to be Christian are not5. For a list of essential Christian beliefs see the Nicean Creed, Apostles Creed, etc. these contain the basics.

ok so you do believe in "baptism for the remission of sins" but you said no water needed on one of the comments and I thought Catholics used water, maybe not immersion. But I think you were talking about sacraments?

At 3/2/2012 4:55:39 PM, yoda878 wrote:ok so you do believe in "baptism for the remission of sins" but you said no water needed on one of the comments and I thought Catholics used water, maybe not immersion. But I think you were talking about sacraments?

Now, the questions here are many....Simple answer....you can get to heaven without baptism...see thief on the cross, Complex answer....without the Christ there is no salvation. There are volumes written on this topic and most on DDO lack the theological understanding or knowledge to have an informed opinion.

At 3/2/2012 4:55:39 PM, yoda878 wrote:ok so you do believe in "baptism for the remission of sins" but you said no water needed on one of the comments and I thought Catholics used water, maybe not immersion. But I think you were talking about sacraments?

Now, the questions here are many....Simple answer....you can get to heaven without baptism...see thief on the cross, Complex answer....without the Christ there is no salvation. There are volumes written on this topic and most on DDO lack the theological understanding or knowledge to have an informed opinion.

I completely agree with you..

All those creed you listed earlier, we read them frequently.

As for your post to me a page back - was that to me? or in general, because so far all you've said i agree with. Nothing i said was in conflict with any of what you just said..

Do you know what reformed theology is? or perhaps its cousin, lutheran theology?

: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.

At 3/2/2012 4:55:39 PM, yoda878 wrote:ok so you do believe in "baptism for the remission of sins" but you said no water needed on one of the comments and I thought Catholics used water, maybe not immersion. But I think you were talking about sacraments?

Now, the questions here are many....Simple answer....you can get to heaven without baptism...see thief on the cross, Complex answer....without the Christ there is no salvation. There are volumes written on this topic and most on DDO lack the theological understanding or knowledge to have an informed opinion.

I completely agree with you..

All those creed you listed earlier, we read them frequently.

As for your post to me a page back - was that to me? or in general, because so far all you've said i agree with. Nothing i said was in conflict with any of what you just said..

Do you know what reformed theology is? or perhaps its cousin, lutheran theology?

Yes...if you mean reformation theology. I am familiar with the theology of Luther. It is one of the reasons we are currently having problems here in the US. Luther's theology is a dependent theology. It depends on the State having the theology of Luther. They all sound nice til people are free.

At 3/2/2012 4:55:39 PM, yoda878 wrote:ok so you do believe in "baptism for the remission of sins" but you said no water needed on one of the comments and I thought Catholics used water, maybe not immersion. But I think you were talking about sacraments?

Now, the questions here are many....Simple answer....you can get to heaven without baptism...see thief on the cross, Complex answer....without the Christ there is no salvation. There are volumes written on this topic and most on DDO lack the theological understanding or knowledge to have an informed opinion.

I completely agree with you..

All those creed you listed earlier, we read them frequently.

As for your post to me a page back - was that to me? or in general, because so far all you've said i agree with. Nothing i said was in conflict with any of what you just said..

Do you know what reformed theology is? or perhaps its cousin, lutheran theology?

Yes...if you mean reformation theology. I am familiar with the theology of Luther. It is one of the reasons we are currently having problems here in the US. Luther's theology is a dependent theology. It depends on the State having the theology of Luther. They all sound nice til people are free.

Logicrules, was Jesus not baptized by water?

Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama

At 3/2/2012 4:55:39 PM, yoda878 wrote:ok so you do believe in "baptism for the remission of sins" but you said no water needed on one of the comments and I thought Catholics used water, maybe not immersion. But I think you were talking about sacraments?

Now, the questions here are many....Simple answer....you can get to heaven without baptism...see thief on the cross, Complex answer....without the Christ there is no salvation. There are volumes written on this topic and most on DDO lack the theological understanding or knowledge to have an informed opinion.

I completely agree with you..

All those creed you listed earlier, we read them frequently.

As for your post to me a page back - was that to me? or in general, because so far all you've said i agree with. Nothing i said was in conflict with any of what you just said..

Do you know what reformed theology is? or perhaps its cousin, lutheran theology?

Yes...if you mean reformation theology. I am familiar with the theology of Luther. It is one of the reasons we are currently having problems here in the US. Luther's theology is a dependent theology. It depends on the State having the theology of Luther. They all sound nice til people are free.

Logicrules, was Jesus not baptized by water?

There is a story of John the Baptist initiating Jesus into the Essenes, is that what you men?

There is a story of John the Baptist initiating Jesus into the Essenes, is that what you men?

Your beliefs seem to contradict each other. How is it possible that the Bible is infallible, yet also includes Jesus getting baptized by water, but you don't believe in that? Correct me if I am wrong...

Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama

There is a story of John the Baptist initiating Jesus into the Essenes, is that what you men?

Your beliefs seem to contradict each other. How is it possible that the Bible is infallible, yet also includes Jesus getting baptized by water, but you don't believe in that? Correct me if I am wrong...

Who told you the bible was infallible? Who told you I believed that? Are you avoiding the question or do you fancy yourself socrates?

At 3/2/2012 4:55:39 PM, yoda878 wrote:ok so you do believe in "baptism for the remission of sins" but you said no water needed on one of the comments and I thought Catholics used water, maybe not immersion. But I think you were talking about sacraments?

Now, the questions here are many....Simple answer....you can get to heaven without baptism...see thief on the cross, Complex answer....without the Christ there is no salvation. There are volumes written on this topic and most on DDO lack the theological understanding or knowledge to have an informed opinion.

I completely agree with you..

All those creed you listed earlier, we read them frequently.

As for your post to me a page back - was that to me? or in general, because so far all you've said i agree with. Nothing i said was in conflict with any of what you just said..

Do you know what reformed theology is? or perhaps its cousin, lutheran theology?

Yes...if you mean reformation theology. I am familiar with the theology of Luther. It is one of the reasons we are currently having problems here in the US. Luther's theology is a dependent theology. It depends on the State having the theology of Luther. They all sound nice til people are free.

So in other words 'No" you don't know about his theology..

I like a lot of your posts, but sometimes it seem you just argue for the sake of arguing..

As for that last remark about sounding nice til people are free... please explain.

: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.

At 3/2/2012 4:55:39 PM, yoda878 wrote:ok so you do believe in "baptism for the remission of sins" but you said no water needed on one of the comments and I thought Catholics used water, maybe not immersion. But I think you were talking about sacraments?

Now, the questions here are many....Simple answer....you can get to heaven without baptism...see thief on the cross, Complex answer....without the Christ there is no salvation. There are volumes written on this topic and most on DDO lack the theological understanding or knowledge to have an informed opinion.

I completely agree with you..

All those creed you listed earlier, we read them frequently.

As for your post to me a page back - was that to me? or in general, because so far all you've said i agree with. Nothing i said was in conflict with any of what you just said..

Do you know what reformed theology is? or perhaps its cousin, lutheran theology?

Yes...if you mean reformation theology. I am familiar with the theology of Luther. It is one of the reasons we are currently having problems here in the US. Luther's theology is a dependent theology. It depends on the State having the theology of Luther. They all sound nice til people are free.

So in other words 'No" you don't know about his theology..

I like a lot of your posts, but sometimes it seem you just argue for the sake of arguing..

As for that last remark about sounding nice til people are free... please explain.

A theology dependent on the King will hit the skids when the King has no theology. Lutheran theology has no Moral Theology or Sacrament. The Law of society is their moral code. See the problem in places like the US? Gay "marriage"? Abortion? etc That is a dependent theology.

At 3/2/2012 4:55:39 PM, yoda878 wrote:ok so you do believe in "baptism for the remission of sins" but you said no water needed on one of the comments and I thought Catholics used water, maybe not immersion. But I think you were talking about sacraments?

Now, the questions here are many....Simple answer....you can get to heaven without baptism...see thief on the cross, Complex answer....without the Christ there is no salvation. There are volumes written on this topic and most on DDO lack the theological understanding or knowledge to have an informed opinion.

I completely agree with you..

All those creed you listed earlier, we read them frequently.

As for your post to me a page back - was that to me? or in general, because so far all you've said i agree with. Nothing i said was in conflict with any of what you just said..

Do you know what reformed theology is? or perhaps its cousin, lutheran theology?

Yes...if you mean reformation theology. I am familiar with the theology of Luther. It is one of the reasons we are currently having problems here in the US. Luther's theology is a dependent theology. It depends on the State having the theology of Luther. They all sound nice til people are free.

So in other words 'No" you don't know about his theology..

I like a lot of your posts, but sometimes it seem you just argue for the sake of arguing..

As for that last remark about sounding nice til people are free... please explain.

A theology dependent on the King will hit the skids when the King has no theology. Lutheran theology has no Moral Theology or Sacrament. The Law of society is their moral code. See the problem in places like the US? Gay "marriage"? Abortion? etc That is a dependent theology.

You do know there were all kinds of people who wanted to kill Luther right?

He does have a moral theology - he just doesn't believe our salvation is dependant upon it. He says very clearly that with the good works we commit, must come the love of what we are doing.. we may be able to obey the physical commandments - but inside we loathe it.

it's called 'CHRIST' centered. The more we look at ourselves, the less we acknowledge what Christ has done. King or no king.. No lutheran or reformed Christian supports gay marriage or abortions.. but we also don't think you go to hell if you do either..

I can explain further, but i want to hear what you have to say first.

: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.