This is a discussion on Beating specific players(longish question) within the online poker forums, in the Tournament Poker section; At the moment I am having difficulties beating the local live games. The majority of players play very straight forward, rarely bluff, chase when they

At the moment I am having difficulties beating the local live games. The majority of players play very straight forward, rarely bluff, chase when they really shouldn't be chasing( they really overestimate draws, don't understand pot odds and the term "on average," and like to limp a lot, with all sorts of crap, rarely raise pre-flop, call very lightly, and don't go into push-fold mode; basically loose passive players. I have been playing really tight against them so I know when I am up against them that I have the best kicker if I hit top pair(most of the time anyway). This wasn't working as I was constantly blinding off, so I decided to start raising a lot when I play; I raise 3BB plus 1 for every caller, which is huge to these players because they usually only min raise or 3 bet at most; people suspect I'm bluffing though when I do this (at least I think so) but they don't really want to risk it too often since I don't play many hands; it's dependent on the player really. However, I'm still blinding off, since they are turbo tourneys. They call too much to make bluffing profitable, most of the time anyway. Under good circumstances it works, but these don't seem to present themselves too often, although I think I'm being a little selective and should take a few more risks.

So, I've been thinking there is two different approaches to be able to beat these guys:

Stick to my style, perhaps loosen a little more(just a tad) and once I have mastered push-fold mode I should do well, just starting to understand the mechanics behind push fold mode, hopefully will figure out all the math in a few days However, the problem with this is since I play with these players regularly, they are more likely to call me with weakish hands( the other night a player called me for 9 blinds with A9 since he seen me go all in with rag a previous game, he was the small blind I was on the button, he had about 20 blinds though, no other limpers/raises) Because of this, I will have to be careful with what I go all in with, so I'm skeptical of this approach as I believe I will still blind off.

The second approach is to loosen up a lot, as in play hands like K10 in middle-early position, not too early though, like UTG 3 onwards. Basically start playing more marginal hands. Not sure if I should call them or raise. If you did decide to play K10 in middle position, would you call or raise if you and your opponents were reasonably stacked(20-25 blinds) and there was only 1-2 callers.

Oh, and one more thing. I have been calling small pockets if I don't believe I will be further raised, and I/opponent(s) have 15 blinds or more. However, I'm starting to think this may be the wrong way of going about it; should I raise these hands, essentially turning them into a semi-bluff. What about medium pockets?

Wow, long post. This has been on my mind for the last few days now. Any advice will be greatly appreciated!

#2

22nd March 2010, 10:04 AM

The_Pup [254]

A table of loose/passive players can be deeply frustrating. A tight aggressive style should win in the long run though you don't want to wait for the perfect hand each time. If people are limping with real junk then raise for value and bet for value if you hit the flop. Sometimes your AQ will hit a QJ5 flop and some idiot called your PF raise with J5o but you just have to bite your lip.

I'd be looking at always playing for value, not getting over committed to a pot (if the third flush card comes on the turn leave room to fold or showdown cheap).

#3

22nd March 2010, 3:01 PM

playerk7 [256]

Online Poker at: fulltilt

Game: hold em

usually you want to play opposite of your competition so play loose aggresive with tese guys, the more flops you see the more you will get paid, and dont be afraid to put some money in the pot.

#4

22nd March 2010, 3:04 PM

Poultry_cat [13]

I'm actually glad you asked this question. I only recently started playing poker, and the players you describe sound exactly like the bunch that play in my hone game. I've had some success playing against them by playing tight/aggressive. I don't enter a pot unless I have a hand I think has a reasonable chance to be the best hand pre-flop. Once the flop comes, I usually bet about half the pot. There's always a chance that someone hit raggy flops with the cards they decided to (but shouldn't have) played pre-flop, but more often than not, they miss the flop and will fold to my bet. If I get called or raised, I usually let go of my hand because the players at my game very rarely try to run a bluff.

I've lost a lot of hands to rags that hit, but I win enough from post flop folds that I usually end up in positive cash territory.

But as new as I am, I realize I could be approaching this all wrong and there might be a better way for me to deal with loose passive players who like to see a lot of flops so I'm interested to see what others have to say.

#5

22nd March 2010, 3:06 PM

Poultry_cat [13]

re: Poker & Beating specific players(longish question)

Quote:

Originally Posted by playerk7

usually you want to play opposite of your competition so play loose aggresive with tese guys, the more flops you see the more you will get paid, and dont be afraid to put some money in the pot.

Forgive me for asking, but would you please explain your line of thinking behind this? I have read is several poker books that the best way to deal with loose players is to tighten up hand selection. I'm a little confused as to how running my rags up against their rags will do me any good unless I happen to hit a good flop.

#6

23rd March 2010, 12:48 AM

Teebone [181]

Poker at: full tilt

Game: NLholdem

Quote:

Originally Posted by pat3392

At the moment I am having difficulties beating the local live games. The majority of players play very straight forward, rarely bluff, chase when they really shouldn't be chasing( they really overestimate draws, don't understand pot odds and the term "on average," and like to limp a lot, with all sorts of crap, rarely raise pre-flop, call very lightly, and don't go into push-fold mode; basically loose passive players. I have been playing really tight against them so I know when I am up against them that I have the best kicker if I hit top pair(most of the time anyway). This wasn't working as I was constantly blinding off, so I decided to start raising a lot when I play; I raise 3BB plus 1 for every caller, which is huge to these players because they usually only min raise or 3 bet at most; people suspect I'm bluffing though when I do this (at least I think so) but they don't really want to risk it too often since I don't play many hands; it's dependent on the player really. However, I'm still blinding off, since they are turbo tourneys. They call too much to make bluffing profitable, most of the time anyway. Under good circumstances it works, but these don't seem to present themselves too often, although I think I'm being a little selective and should take a few more risks.

So, I've been thinking there is two different approaches to be able to beat these guys:

Stick to my style, perhaps loosen a little more(just a tad) and once I have mastered push-fold mode I should do well, just starting to understand the mechanics behind push fold mode, hopefully will figure out all the math in a few days However, the problem with this is since I play with these players regularly, they are more likely to call me with weakish hands( the other night a player called me for 9 blinds with A9 since he seen me go all in with rag a previous game, he was the small blind I was on the button, he had about 20 blinds though, no other limpers/raises) Because of this, I will have to be careful with what I go all in with, so I'm skeptical of this approach as I believe I will still blind off.

The second approach is to loosen up a lot, as in play hands like K10 in middle-early position, not too early though, like UTG 3 onwards. Basically start playing more marginal hands. Not sure if I should call them or raise. If you did decide to play K10 in middle position, would you call or raise if you and your opponents were reasonably stacked(20-25 blinds) and there was only 1-2 callers.

Oh, and one more thing. I have been calling small pockets if I don't believe I will be further raised, and I/opponent(s) have 15 blinds or more. However, I'm starting to think this may be the wrong way of going about it; should I raise these hands, essentially turning them into a semi-bluff. What about medium pockets?

Wow, long post. This has been on my mind for the last few days now. Any advice will be greatly appreciated!

Tighten your range, and punish the limpers. Dont limp inless you have a good reason, only raise. If there passive there going to fold most c-bets. Just put a hefty size raise pre-flop, hopefully they'll stop limping or play back at you when you got the nuts. Dont bluff if your getting called, people that limp hate people that raise every pot, so they will be looking to stack you.

This sounds just like the people at our local casino here. Everyone limp/calls preflop. Its really annoying that they play so bad.

#7

23rd March 2010, 1:57 AM

mypokergrind [19]

Online Poker at: poekrstars

Game: holdem

TAG is only going to work if you are getting dealt decent cards. I recommend opening a lot more......Hand like K10 in MP are fine to open with IMO. Make sure you are raising though.....you never want to open up your game and just limp along....that is terrible.

Open up your game but raise.....making sure that you are first one in the pot as well.....K10 in MP is not going to play as well if someone has already decided to come in to the pot.....Play a little looser with your openings....and play aggressive on the flop.

You can play more hands against passive oppenets because they are so easy to pick of after the flop. Passive players are betting and calling when they have a poece of it. So if you get called or raised be prepared to let it go or at least have some showdown value

when they are checking I am usually betting and taking down pots at will.

In reference to the guy calling you with A9 when you had 9BB. That is standard IMO. You only had 9BB so push/fold says you should be way wider than A9 therefore A9 should usually be ahead.

Study push/fold and get comfrotable with it. Live players do not understand it. This is where you will cruch live donkamnets.

#8

24th March 2010, 8:23 AM

pat3392 [565]

Poker at: pokerstars

Game: hold'em

@teebone

that was what i was doing, but it does not seem to work. i might get one/hands which i can raise before i am short stack, and if those hands are not pockets i'll only hit 2/3rds of the time. and when i do raise such large amounts people start playing really unpredictably, as in they do all sorts of abnormal plays, in an attempt to out play me, so it's hard to put them on anything. i don't raise that much either, 3BB +1 for every limper and usually around 2/3rds pot, but to these guys that's HUGE

#9

24th March 2010, 10:41 AM

Grinder101 [238]

If they're passive, then they make no big raises, so you can limp a lot of pots. Play looser if you're good at pot control and still raise your big hands for a lot of chips (depends on what they call and what you're comfortable with).

Don't underestimate the advantage of position even against the total amateurs and don't unnecessarily donk off your chips. Depends on how they play, but if you think you can get paid off with your hand if you hit then go for it.

The other option of course, is to play tight. But to me it's just bad poker to just play tight like a robot and push as soon as you get top pair.

Another thing you have to ask yourself is if you're not underestimating those so called bad players, I'm just considering all the options.

#10

24th March 2010, 1:32 PM

pat3392 [565]

Poker at: pokerstars

Game: hold'em

re: Poker & Beating specific players(longish question)

"But to me it's just bad poker to just play tight like a robot and push as soon as you get top pair." i like that a lot, very true.