I spent many long hours building fences so that cattle can beWorms do more for araeting soil, and digesting dead plant material than any ungulate. And while your general rules of grazing are true, but are not followed on the range lands in the western USA. That land is truly abused by the cattlemen and shepards while being subsidized by the US taxpayer. They put there herds out on the land, say they are in an area where its 160 acres to a cow/calf. You have 100 scare miles, hence theoritcal room for 400 cows with calves. The cows won't travel too far from water, so now you have 400 cow/calf pairs grazing on only 25 square miles. The land is overgrazed and abused. Having worked for the Forest Service out west, rotated and/or fenced out of special places. Not one rancher so much as bought me a beer or paid any more of my salary than some guy in a penthouse in New York City.

Why did you duck my reply and avoid the reason I made the thread The real goal, Bankrupt farmers. Increase costs

Both worms and fertilizing cattle ,sheep or any other ungulate increase the variety of soil nutrients and microscopic organisms. In fact that variety allows for better soil conditions. As a trapper I have often had farmers offer me a beer in their homes or at public functions but maybe it is because they know I don't drink. Bottom line is a farmer or rancher that wants weight gain must have grazing land to get those gains. It is Stupid to put animals on over grazed land. That point is obvious and the person who hates cattle so badly has no understanding of how world food production can not be best served without domesticated animals such as sheep & cattle.

Maybe now you might like to do better then insinuating I am vengefully distorting the truth and am stupid??. BTW, Hawkeye has correctly noted the same thing as me. Too many animals do not gain weight so your claims about ungulate herding by ranchers is a fallacy since they are in the market to increase poundage to increase profitt margins. Worms eating soil doesn't feed families of humans by the way, so what was your point? More importantly ,how does it bare witness against the thread header "The real Goal is to Bankrupt farmers and the scondary observation that making animal provided food more expensive makes it less obtainable and thus more likely to be Pacelle's game from the getgo. Afterall he is the one calling for the end of domesticating animals in ONE GENERATION.

Of course not, but I do know that egg laying hens are kept in very small cages, and this is not the right way to raise chickens. By the way, I spend an extra 50 cents to a buck for free range eggs. And I don't believe everything that Mira says either. Most people with that kind of vengence distort the truth to support their side, and I'm also pretty sure the guy could grow worms in the conditions given.

The last thing I am in life is a liar Aleman but you seem to like to distort that TRUTH. What you class as vengence is a lie. I am offering folks an opportunity to take note of how to see where ARA propaganda has made animal use a evil enterprise if folks make money from it.

And just what documentation do tou have of his ability to raise earthworms. That is pure propaganda on your part. Sink to his level, you are no better than he is. Cut out the editorial comments if you are merely doing as you say.

I spent many long hours building fences so that cattle can beWorms do more for araeting soil, and digesting dead plant material than any ungulate. And while your general rules of grazing are true, but are not followed on the range lands in the western USA. That land is truly abused by the cattlemen and shepards while being subsidized by the US taxpayer. They put there herds out on the land, say they are in an area where its 160 acres to a cow/calf. You have 100 scare miles, hence theoritcal room for 400 cows with calves. The cows won't travel too far from water, so now you have 400 cow/calf pairs grazing on only 25 square miles. The land is overgrazed and abused. Having worked for the Forest Service out west, rotated and/or fenced out of special places. Not one rancher so much as bought me a beer or paid any more of my salary than some guy in a penthouse in New York City.

Why did you duck my reply and avoid the reason I made the thread The real goal, Bankrupt farmers. Increase costs

Both worms and fertilizing cattle ,sheep or any other ungulate increase the variety of soil nutrients and microscopic organisms. In fact that variety allows for better soil conditions. As a trapper I have often had farmers offer me a beer in their homes or at public functions but maybe it is because they know I don't drink. Bottom line is a farmer or rancher that wants weight gain must have grazing land to get those gains. It is Stupid to put animals on over grazed land. That point is obvious and the person who hates cattle so badly has no understanding of how world food production can not be best served without domesticated animals such as sheep & cattle.

Maybe now you might like to do better then insinuating I am vengefully distorting the truth and am stupid??. BTW, Hawkeye has correctly noted the same thing as me. Too many animals do not gain weight so your claims about ungulate herding by ranchers is a fallacy since they are in the market to increase poundage to increase profitt margins. Worms eating soil doesn't feed families of humans by the way, so what was your point? More importantly ,how does it bare witness against the thread header "The real Goal is to Bankrupt farmers and the scondary observation that making animal provided food more expensive makes it less obtainable and thus more likely to be Pacelle's game from the getgo. Afterall he is the one calling for the end of domesticating animals in ONE GENERATION.

If you expect me to believe that no rancher at any time has not overgrazed because it would hurt their profits, you are far more ignorant than you appear in these forums. It is easy to drive thru the cattle grounds and see pastures damaged by overgrazing by the actual plants growing there. But instead of trying to help, all you can do is glorify everything that your enemy disagrees with. Net result, you sway people who are in the middle of the road to the other side. If we pick our battles carefully, we can win the war. If we shoot nilly willy at the openant, we will loose.

Of course not, but I do know that egg laying hens are kept in very small cages, and this is not the right way to raise chickens. By the way, I spend an extra 50 cents to a buck for free range eggs. And I don't believe everything that Mira says either. Most people with that kind of vengence distort the truth to support their side, and I'm also pretty sure the guy could grow worms in the conditions given.

Quote:

The last thing I am in life is a liar Aleman but you seem to like to distort that TRUTH. What you class as vengeance is a lie. I am offering folks an opportunity to take note of how to see where ARA propaganda has made animal use an evil enterprise if folks make money from it.

[/quote] Aleman =And just what documentation do tou have of his ability to raise earthworms. That is pure propaganda on your part. Sink to his level, you are no better than he is. Cut out the editorial comments if you are merely doing as you say.[quote]

WHOW!!!!!!!! Is that all you can come up with??? I have used that hyperbole/analogy because it suits Pacelle's ignorance of large-scale husbandry as a rancher/foul barn expert.His dismissal of veterinarians who actually practice such animal husbandry is well documented. You trying to appear childish or is it a natural for you??? Is protecting H$USites and denigration of animal husbandry experts plus veterinarians & wildlife biologists that important to you??

Why would a cattleman overgraze an area? It wouldn't add a penny to his bottom line, in fact it would cost him money. Each allotment is assigned a specific amount of livestock for a specific amount of time, when that time is up the cattle are moved to a new area.

_________________________
It takes 43 muscles to frown, 17 to smile, but only 3 for a proper trigger squeeze.

[ But instead of trying to help, all you can do is glorify everything that your enemy disagrees with. Net result, you sway people who are in the middle of the road to the other side. If we pick our battles carefully, we can win the war. If we shoot nilly willy at the openant, we will loose.

And your spreading "overgrazing" propaganda, when you have no scientific documentation will sway people who are in the middle of the road to the other side, but maybe that is your objective.

_________________________
It takes 43 muscles to frown, 17 to smile, but only 3 for a proper trigger squeeze.

I spent many long hours building fences so that cattle can beWorms do more for araeting soil, and digesting dead plant material than any ungulate. And while your general rules of grazing are true, but are not followed on the range lands in the western USA. That land is truly abused by the cattlemen and shepards while being subsidized by the US taxpayer. They put there herds out on the land, say they are in an area where its 160 acres to a cow/calf. You have 100 scare miles, hence theoritcal room for 400 cows with calves. The cows won't travel too far from water, so now you have 400 cow/calf pairs grazing on only 25 square miles. The land is overgrazed and abused. Having worked for the Forest Service out west, rotated and/or fenced out of special places. Not one rancher so much as bought me a beer or paid any more of my salary than some guy in a penthouse in New York City.

Why did you duck my reply and avoid the reason I made the thread The real goal, Bankrupt farmers. Increase costs

Both worms and fertilizing cattle ,sheep or any other ungulate increase the variety of soil nutrients and microscopic organisms. In fact that variety allows for better soil conditions. As a trapper I have often had farmers offer me a beer in their homes or at public functions but maybe it is because they know I don't drink. Bottom line is a farmer or rancher that wants weight gain must have grazing land to get those gains. It is Stupid to put animals on over grazed land. That point is obvious and the person who hates cattle so badly has no understanding of how world food production can not be best served without domesticated animals such as sheep & cattle.

Maybe now you might like to do better then insinuating I am vengefully distorting the truth and am stupid??. BTW, Hawkeye has correctly noted the same thing as me. Too many animals do not gain weight so your claims about ungulate herding by ranchers is a fallacy since they are in the market to increase poundage to increase profitt margins. Worms eating soil doesn't feed families of humans by the way, so what was your point? More importantly ,how does it bare witness against the thread header "The real Goal is to Bankrupt farmers and the scondary observation that making animal provided food more expensive makes it less obtainable and thus more likely to be Pacelle's game from the getgo. Afterall he is the one calling for the end of domesticating animals in ONE GENERATION.

If you expect me to believe that no rancher at any time has not overgrazed because it would hurt their profits, you are far more ignorant than you appear in these forums. It is easy to drive thru the cattle grounds and see pastures damaged by overgrazing by the actual plants growing there. But instead of trying to help, all you can do is glorify everything that your enemy disagrees with. Net result, you sway people who are in the middle of the road to the other side. If we pick our battles carefully, we can win the war. If we shoot nilly willy at the openant, we will loose.

Excuse me for pointing out your claim was that worms are more important than ungulates in fertilizing and maintaining soil. You be eating a lot of worm steaks have you? In fact H$U$ites are trying to destroy all domestication of ungulates. Your commentary is not very well advised when it comes to feeding people meat. In fact H$US is making a lot of the same case you are in that regard and yet todays markets are filled with well meated animals who had to have been predominately grazing healthy lands.

Why would a cattleman overgraze an area? It wouldn't add a penny to his bottom line, in fact it would cost him money. Each allotment is assigned a specific amount of livestock for a specific amount of time, when that time is up the cattle are moved to a new area.

This is a DUUUHHHHH moment though isn't it Hawkeye?? Of course your point is validated by the fact that ranchers can ill afford to overgraze because the ungulate looses weight quickly under those conditions. .

The danger of initiatives in these kinds of issues is that they don't NEED politicians to sponsor them. All the antis have to do is get X number of signatures on a petition, and it goes on the ballot for a state-wide vote.

Can we do this to move or stop that mosque???

They also did it with the gay marriage, except it worked against them, and a judge overturned it.

What a cesspool of worthless garbage california is.

I hope they can't afford the food they are allowed to produce there, shut off all their water, problem is though, that the nutjobs just move to another state and start all over again, until that state is ruined, then move again...repeat process.

The danger of initiatives in these kinds of issues is that they don't NEED politicians to sponsor them. All the antis have to do is get X number of signatures on a petition, and it goes on the ballot for a state-wide vote.

Can we do this to move or stop that mosque???

They also did it with the gay marriage, except it worked against them, and a judge overturned it.

Seems more like a case of the courts over-ruling public will. That will galvanized into protecting the term marriage as a man & woman entering matrimony while gays could enter matrimony as a civil union. The danger for folks who view Religious values within the term marriage is the next step will be for government to demand ministers,Imams,priests & Rabi marry couples even though they feel such marriage is not sanctioned by Christian, Jewish or Moslem clerics. An example of such demands happens when Drs & Nurses who are faith bound by their religious beliefs are forced to perform abortions. Threats by hospitals are becoming more prevalent today even though the original framers of Abortion laws made guarantees against such high-handed approach by hospitals.

The danger of initiatives in these kinds of issues is that they don't NEED politicians to sponsor them. All the antis have to do is get X number of signatures on a petition, and it goes on the ballot for a state-wide vote.

Can we do this to move or stop that mosque???

No. That would be unconstitutional. And as much as I disagree with the wisdom, and the lack of sensitivity and common decency in building the mosque there, I firmly believe in the RIGHT to build it there.

Is banning trapping not violating my rights to the "pusuit of happiness?"

I am sure we could find someone who could "interpret" the living document, the freedom of religion, it is free to practice it, but maybe not free to do it whereever you please...If my religion is Nudism, can I practice it in public places???

The danger of initiatives in these kinds of issues is that they don't NEED politicians to sponsor them. All the antis have to do is get X number of signatures on a petition, and it goes on the ballot for a state-wide vote.

Can we do this to move or stop that mosque???

[/quote]

Quote:

No. That would be unconstitutional. And as much as I disagree with the wisdom, and the lack of sensitivity and common decency in building the mosque there, I firmly believe in the RIGHT to build it there.

I agree ,it is their right. However,it is also their will to cause a afront to the folks who regonize the Cordoba house naming is a deliberate encouragement to Islamic terrorists who know perfectally well the name means we "WON" on 9/11.

If you expect me to believe that no rancher at any time has not overgrazed because it would hurt their profits, you are far more ignorant than you appear in these forums. It is easy to drive thru the cattle grounds and see pastures damaged by overgrazing by the actual plants growing there. But instead of trying to help, all you can do is glorify everything that your enemy disagrees with.

Gee Aleman. Just because I find your claims to be faulty, it does not make me ignorant. In fact pretending that a rancher who doesn't abide by the rule of grazing healthy lands on your part is strange or are you still ticked that they never gave you a beer??? ..

I was just about to ask Aleman to explain why he thought any rancher should be obligated to buy him a beer and to see if he would admit he was passing false information when he said a rancher hadn't paid more of his salary than a guy in a penthouse in New York City.

Just like Wayne Pacelle, passes false information, then when he's called on it he defocuses and want to discuss a comment about raising worms in a manure pile.

_________________________
It takes 43 muscles to frown, 17 to smile, but only 3 for a proper trigger squeeze.

I was just about to ask Aleman to explain why he thought any rancher should be obligated to buy him a beer and to see if he would admit he was passing false information when he said a rancher hadn't paid more of his salary than a guy in a penthouse in New York City.

Just like Wayne Pacelle, passes false information, then when he's called on it he defocuses and want to discuss a comment about raising worms in a manure pile.

Maybe he couldn't abide the taste of his own brewery. Pretending the hyperbole I offered wasn't poking fun at Pacelle's ignorance of animal husbandry makes me wonder what his motives really are??