this thread is starting to make me want to pull my hair out a little bit! i think that you can have a dog that is "obscenely obediant" before doing protection, but when you begin protection you are starting something completely new! it's important to keep in mind that responsible handlers and trainers only train dogs that are of a sound temperament anyway, not flighty or fearful or fear biter or anxious ones. that being said, there's also something else that maybe most of us think is obvious but some don't:

YOU CAN'T TRAIN PROTECTION OBEDIENCE WITHOUT DOING PROTECTION---IT'S NOT COMPLICATED TO UNDERSTAND!!!!!

if you could teach your dog to do an out, bark and hold, search blinds, heel up to a decoy, transport, etc, keep all his drives up and in place, all before he's ever had a bite or knows what he's working for...AND still do all that after doing bitework we would all do it! it turns out that that's not the case, and that the alternative is actually more productive and doesn't come at the cost of the dog being a safe animal. anyone who has any experience in protection knows this full and well.

Actually, they HAVE been off-leash often in public. We tell them to "fulligan" (heel) and they do. And they "attention heel," so they look at us while they're doing so. This past weekend is the perfect example. Even Jue was off-leash, running around at times...when we would call him, he'd come running back to us....there were people standing around talking at the time....right where he was....

So there has never been a time when they don't heel or come when called?

Jue and Asja (and TJ): NO
Nisha and Dru: still very young, and don't have the level of bite training that Jue/Asja/and TJ have....nor do they have the level of obedience...Nisha's obedience is nice, but I, honestly, don't set her up to fail...

On March 12 2007, brooksybrooks1 wrote:romanwild, i think that your opinions are due to a lack of experience and an unwillingness to learn. I think that if you were more open minded and also willing to see another side of it you would be able to learn a lot more. You are looking for people to say something that you can construe as bad about protection work, and although you claim you have nothing against it, i don't really believe you at all. your unwillingness to see anything other than your predetermined idea really keeps you from seeing a lot of the good things about it or even the basic tenents of protection training, and it's really unfortunate.i think you bring up valid points, but then when people try to educate you about them you don't learn, but instead just try tofind some small inconsistency in their argument that is irrelevant or obviously just a wording error. i really think that if you knew what you were talking about you would know that protection training actually makes a SAFER dog. any dog canmake a mistake and bite someone, protection training reduces this risk, imo, by teaching the dog WHEN to bite, they aren't going to be as surprised by a situation, and instead be much more calculated than a dog with no pp training or bitework.you need to read and speak to a lot more trainers and watch dogs that are very experienced. i think it would silence a lot of your thoughts.

Only one opinion I have put forth in this thread is that I do not like a bite work dog to make their own decisions and that bitework should come after OB. Especially if it's a Pit Bull. That's all.

You're trying to imply that I don't know what I'm talking about, is lame. If you don't agree then argue your point. Bottom line is that it's a difference of opinion. I have mine and I have them for my reasons. If people want to teach their dogs, especially Pit Bulls, to bite when they think they should then go ahead. I'm not proposing a ban on that kind of training. IMO a lot of bitework people are cavalier about having a dog that can decide when it's appropriate to bite. They are overly confident of their dogs level of obedience and should be a more careful.

A dog is a tool to be used by the handler. Forgive the use of a gun analogy but when you have a dog that is bitework trained and independent it's like having a gun that can pull it's own trigger.

LIKE I SAID, your "opinions," which you don't state as opinions, but rather like they are facts, are misguided at best, and if you had more experience you would know better, that's why it's so aggrivating that you won't accept the opinions of those whose opinions DO count, and i'm not even talking about myself! i'm not trying to imply anything, i'm flat out telling you- you don't know what you're talking about! you're the one who said it, you've never trained bitework, but you've talked to some people who have. that means that you don't have any experience, and your thoughts should be posed as questions, because right now it's like you're telling everyone who does have experience that they are all wrong.

picture this: i don't know what you do, but lets say you are in sales. i've read some books about sales, my boyfriend is a very successful salesman and tells me about it all the time, and i watch that tacky used car sales show on tv regularly. do you think i am qualified to come into your job and tell you everything that you are doing wrong (with an attitude, nonetheless), tell you how you should do it better, the ramifications of your methods, and not listen to the advice you give me or when you, and your boss, tell me otherwise?! how much credit would you give me and my "opinions"?! i would think and hope little to none! i think most would simply say-yeah, expert, you can't be convinced, go do it your way and we'll see what happens, because you know that person is in for it!

and once again, any dog can make a decision to bite at any time and makes that decision daily, most of the time they choose not to, sometimes, unfortunately, they do. a protection trained dog makes BETTER decisions, and makes them based on the training that YOU have given them, so whether you are giving them the command or not, they are biting only when they have had extensive experience being trained to do so.

and you tell me to argue my point, how about your read the past 4 pages of this thread where i do argue it as well as others arguing it for me? or were you too busy thinking of what you are going to say next to actually pay attention to that part? if you are unconvinced and unwilling to learn, as someone who has limited to no experience, you're in over your head. The worst kind of ignorant is the kind that can't, or i guess won't, be taught otherwise.

and not to rant, but kinda!, if you think protection training is teaching a dog to "bite when they think they should" maybe you should go watch a protection class, you'll quickly learn otherwise. there's plenty of people who want aggressive pit bulls that bite when they see fit, they aren't the type of people who appear on this board and they certainly aren't the type of people who train for sports or personal protection. a dog that bites when he thinks he can is NOT a protection dog. a dog who bites when he's either been told or trained to bite IS a protection dog. can i make this any clearer?! i feel like i'm taking crazy pills!!!

You are sitting here acting as if you had some extraordinarily good posts throughout this thread where you argued your point effectively. You didn't. Katie, Greg and Nelson were the only ones who really came in here and properly 'put it down'.

While Charles (Roman) might not train bitework, and be inexperienced with a lot of it, don't forget that you are as well. Don't take this as me saying that I'm some god of bitework, but seriously, don't forget that you were just in Charles' shoes just a short while back if I remember correctly where you were getting guidance on what you 'misunderstood' from PSA.

i know full and well that i'm a beginner, yet even i can understand the things that greg and them are saying, and the difference between my psa thread where i may have sounded like charles at the beginning and the way charles sounds in this thread is that i was told otherwise and i accepted and embraced it, i don't have an issue anymore-charles refuses to learn but instead just bashes everyone who is active in this field. i'm not an expert, i joined this board to get advice from people who are, and i think i've made that very clear.

the points that i feel like i've been clear on but maybe i haven't, are that protection does not equal aggression, a protection dog is a very safe dog, safer than perhaps a normal dog, and that a dog can be very obedient but that protection obedience has to be trained in conjunction with protection.

On 03/12/2007 12:42 PM, brooksybrooks1 wrote:the points that i feel like i've been clear on but maybe i haven't, are that protection does not equal aggression, a protection dog is a very safe dog, safer than perhaps a normal dog, and that a dog can be very obedient but that protection obedience has to be trained in conjunction with protection.

I'd love to see where you made these points cause I'm not finding anything aside from you saying them with some kind of rambling at the end that really didn't make any points.

and them are saying, and the difference between my psa thread where i may have sounded like charles at the beginning and the way charles sounds in this thread is that i was told otherwise and i accepted and embraced it

The difference is that you were offered (told otherwise) with details and information that effectively backed up what they were saying. You have not done that here. I agree with what you are attempting to get at, but you have not proven it with your posts here, which is why I'm not understanding how you can be mad at Charles.

i don't have an issue anymore-charles refuses to learn but instead just bashes everyone who is active in this field.

Are you creating this bashing fairytale in your head? Seriously, where do you see bashing? I may not agree with the stance that Charles has, but I don't see any bashing going on.

Actually, some might consider you as the basher in this thread since you are just pounding and pounding away at Charles, saying he refuses, etc. etc.

Everybody just stop. Step away from the keyboard. This has been a very good, informative conversation but emotion is playing too big a part at the moment. Nothing is being accomplished here except anger & further frustration if it continues as it is. Thanks for understanding.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.

yeah, i don't mean to get upset. this is a discussion board, afterall, great battles are not being fought here! i guess my aggrivation comes from not just charles discrediting myself, but also discrediting those who have ample experience and HAVE said it well here. i'm not at all interested in getting in another argument with anothony or even continuing this current one, i'm just annoyed that he just won't seem to get the point no matter what, but i guess agree to disagree, right?

with all due respect to everyone, i'm interested in hearing this discussion continue and move forward.

i think charles' opinions are interesting and i think he's stating them well and asking questions in such a way that people are answering them in a straightforward fashion--no beating around the bush or hedging or trying to get points across by bowbeating.

i'm definitely learning things from this discussion . . . even if it is aggravating people. and maybe it's BECAUSE people are aggravated that so much info is coming out of this for me!

well, i'm kinda over this thread now, but anthony-the points are are in there, i went back and looked and i know it's a lot to read but i'm pretty sure they're all there. i don't feel like going back and quoting all of them, so i'll leave that up to you if it matters that much.
charles: if there is something that we are not explaining well or you are still confused about, i think this conversation would be better directed in the form of questions rather than attacks (from either side) followed by defenses. let me, or greg, or katie, or michelle, or anyone know what we can do to help you understand or feel better about out it, because i feel like despite our best efforts it's not getting through, and maybe your questions or concerns are getting through so well either. i think that the problems you have with bitework wouldn't be problems if you could let us show that to you.
thanks for the good posts, everyone.