Don't know about the manual not being available on the base model but he's right on the RSX. I think Acura announced that early this year or late last year. With Acura dropping the RSX maybe we'll see the return of the prelude?

Blah, Blah, Blah.....At the end of the day the TL Type-S will still lose to an IS350.

Why are people trying to compare the IS350 with TL's, or G35's, etc.

Lexus and BMW consider each other as competitors. So in reality its $3-5K less expensive than a comparably equipped 335. Ok so great it doesn't handle as good but then its 10x more reliable, just as quick (saw a stock one repeatedly run mid-to-low 13's in the qtr mile), and provides more luxury. You sit in an Acura or Infiniti and see Honda and Nissan. There is no Toyota that is based off the IS.

Your 1st, 2nd, 3rd place is based off of who can go around a track the quickest. And based on how close those times are, it is down to the skill of the driver.

In the realworld out on the streets, the TL "Type-S" will lose everytime.

And its sad that a company with such a great heritage of making awesome motorcycle engines and 4 cylinder VTEC engines, can not produce something over 300hp. You can yank 240hp out of an S2000, but can't go over 300hp with a 3liter V6?

Infiniti is about to produce 330hp out of basically the same VQ-series engine they have used for over a decade. And Honda/Acura can't? Why not?

"Maybe if ggesq was a real car enthusiast I would take his comments seriously.

If they don't consider each other as competitors than why would Lexus bring out the IS? To compete it with the TL's and the G35? Please!!"

A "real car enthusiast" in this segment doesn't drive a slushbox. Period.

And, please answer, why DID Lexus bring out an IS350 with only a slushbox only transmission? It can't even compete with Infiniti and Acura for the serious enthusaist's dollars, let alone BMW. And if you think "low to mid 13's", rather than overall performance and driving dynamics is what sport is all about, then you are the perfect Lexus customer.

Perhaps you should recheck your own credentials as a "serious enthusiast" before questioning ggesq's, hey?

Don't get me wrong. The IS 350 is one sweet little ride. It has made with superb interior materials, has a well laid out cockpit and design, gobs of hp and backed w/ legendary Toyota reliability.

That being said, the IS was marketed specifically to take on the 3er PERFORMANCE wise and it failed miserably. Driver feedback, driving dynamics, & road feel to name a few are some of the areas where the IS is subpar compared to the 3er. Heck, the FWD TL gives more feedback than an IS does and it comes w/ a manual tranny.Obvioualy, the IS is one little pocket rocket but I don't live my life driving from one stop light to another.

I would be hard pressed to call an owner of a TL or an IS a enthusiast.

It's a little unrealistic if you think the IS does not compete w/ the TL or G.

"Your 1st, 2nd, 3rd place is based off of who can go around a track the quickest. And based on how close those times are, it is down to the skill of the driver."

Yes, it was based on who got around the track the quickest? So what? Kinda impressive for a FWD TL hanging w/ its RWD counterparts heh?Two seconds quicker is huge my friend!! By the way, it was the same driver for all 3 vehicles.

The TL's at the end of its cycle. The IS came out in 06. The 330i came out in 06 and the new G just came out this year. Let's at least wait until the next generation TL comes out before throwing stones?

"In the realworld out on the streets, the TL "Type-S" will lose everytime."

In the real world, do you really thinnk you can detect a 20 HP difference in a 3500# car? Sure the IS may be a couple 10ths of a second faster in the 1/4 mile, but that difference is all nut undetectable.

Steering feel, chassis dynamics, and driveline response is much more noticeable (and enjoyable) in the real world, and the TL-S has the IS beat in all 3 areas.

By chassis dynamics, I was referring to body roll, turn-in sharpness, and general sporty reflexes. The IS, with it's somewhat numb steering and body roll feels less like a sports car than the TL-S to me.

By driveline response, I was mostly thinking of the very slick, effortless 6-speed manual of the Acura - a prerequisite for a sports car that is not available on the Lexus.

The TL-S is a FWD sport sedan than even an enthusiast can enjoy. I think the IS350, with a manual tranny and a small amount of suspension tuning, could be made into a real 3-series alternative.

How unrealistic can it be that it's a fact that the IS does not take the TL or G seriously. Again, I have many friends in the luxury car business and one of them with BMW.

On paper, he shows the stats. The TL or G are not making a big enough dent in the IS sales. The '05 and below IS300 was such a joke for Lexus that they went back "licked their wounds" and did their homework so they don't come back out and get embarrased again.

"I'll take a bit less driving dynamics anyday if it means having more luxury."

If this doesn't further substantiate habitat's premise that you are a perfect customer for Lexus, I don't know what is.

"If car enthusiast's just drive manuals, than why DOES BMW make an automatic for the 335i, E46 M3 (yes SMG at its heart is not an all-out stick shift with a clutch), and M5????"The point is and somebody correct me if I'm wrong- they are all available w/ a manual tranny. Period.

"By the way, I own a '05 M3 (stick) and a 997 Carrera S as well so nice try there with the "lexus customer thing".

Well then, take it from another 997 Carrera S owner that you are barking up the wrong tree if you are trying to convince anyone that the Lexus IS350 competes with the 335i for the "serious enthusiast". Even in the most recent comparison by Edmunds, where they "level the playing field" by castrating the 335i with a paddle shifted slushbox, it wins across the board. And, for those that really are serious enthusiasts, the 335i can be had with the proper 6-speed manual.

In fairness, you don't see me here defending my 2004 TL 6-speed as an all out sport sedan. It is a well balanced, sportY, family sedan. But with FWD, it is never going to compete with the 3-series. Yet, IMO, with it's short throw 6-speed and sport suspension, it is more entertaining to drive with a little enthusaism than the auto-only IS350.

If you are changing your tune and claiming that the IS350 might be taking sales away from the non-sport 335iA or the 328iA, perhaps. But that space is shared with the TL, G, C-class and a few others. There are a lot of competitors in the ELLPS space, but there is a pretty clear winner in the ELLPS segment. There is absolutely nothing wrong with preferring the former, just call a spade a spade.

So tell me, why does someone with an M3 and 997 Carrera S feel so compelled to exhult the sporting virtues of the IS350? I already put 80% of my miles over the past 18 months on my 911 vs. the TL (13,500 vs. 3,000). I can't imagine ever driving an IS350 if I owned one. At least my TL with FWD gets me through the occasional winter snow, pouring rain or times when I need to carry 3+ adult passengers.

Lexus says "no" it doesn't increase hp but then when I run the 1/4 mile with it on, it slows it down into mid-to-high 13's. Furthermore, when I dyno it with it turned off, it measures 268 at the wheels. With it on, 276.

I'm in nooooooo way implying my IS350 is "the [non-permissible content removed]". I'm just saying that people can look to something else on the menu and say "Ok, this car might not have the sporting intentions of a BMW or handle as good but I like the other traits about it". Some people are hard-core BMW fans, some are the same for Lexus or whomever. But there is an alternative out there.

Sorry, I'm still having a difficult time understanding how someone who already owns $150k worth of a 2005 M3 and 997 911S decides to get an IS350 as a third car. It's not like the former are not capable daily drivers. And it's not like the IS350 offers more capacity with respect to passenger or trunk space. A GS450h maybe, but an IS350?

So, not to upset louiswie, but what specific 997 model do you have and why aren't you driving it 80% of the time like I am?

Why not the IS350 as a 3rd car. The Carrera is a 2dr.sports car and the M3 a sport-coupe/GT, whatever. The IS350 has 4 doors and a decent trunk. I don't need anything larger. All I was looking for was a compact, 4-door, luxury-sports-sedan. The 450h's trunk is cut in half and therefore has about the same trunk space as say, a 350Z.

And to answer your other question, I have a 997-S, stick, Black, PASM, Sport Chrono Pkg, etc....

I would love to drive it 120% of the time but I personally like to keep my favorite one for weekends or events. But don't get me wrong I still do take it out every-now and then on weekdays if I get the urge. Yes, its an awesome car and a wonderful daily-driver but I'll rack-up the miles on the M3 or IS instead.