I have done a lot of studying of Plato (who is a dimwit in my book) and aristotle as well. Yes supernatual aspects are discussed within philosophy, no doubt about it, but this does not make religion a philsophy. There is NOTHING philosophical about the Bible. THere are no reasoned arguments, there is no logic, it is just faith.

Point well taken. Btw, I wasnt challenging your knowledge with my last comment, but I see what youre saying. Some may say the reasoning would be the accounts, written in the gospels. Although, in Judaism, as well as Christian religion, there have commentaries, such as the Talmud, reasoning and peiceing together the concepts behind the Bible. Keep in mind, philosophy didn't come until centuries after the Bible was written. We're talking, different eras of thought here.

everything is relative.

Peace

Hour.Glass

Sat Feb 01, 2003 2:18 am

August Spies

Joined: 09 Aug 2002
Posts: 1979
Location: D.C.

philosophy didn't come until centuries after the Bible was written. We're talking, different eras of thought here.

!!!!!!! are you joking?
Philosophy, typically, is thought to be founded in ancient Greece with the pre-socratic philosophers (hericlitus, pythagorus et al) and then to have come fully into bloom with the post-socratic philosophers (Plato, Aristotle, et al)

This is all long before the new testemant.

Anyways my point is that philsophy is a distinct science. it is board in its scope, and certainly touches on many things. Marx and Locke talk about economics. Plato and Nietzsche talk about the importance of art. yada yada. But the fact that these people place art or economics in their theories does not make art or economics a phliosophy. Similarly, Descartes presupposing a god or Aristole talking about the unmoved mover does not make religion a philosophy.

Sat Feb 01, 2003 2:24 am

MrHourGlass

Joined: 13 Jul 2002
Posts: 384
Location: buddy cianci land

...

I'm almost sure the Old Testament was written before the pre-socratic era. The old testament, is a part of the Bible.

heh.

Peace

Hour.Glass

Sat Feb 01, 2003 2:29 am

MrHourGlass

Joined: 13 Jul 2002
Posts: 384
Location: buddy cianci land

...

I'm probably wrong with the dates in history. I am aware of the pre-socratic era you speak of...men of smooth words and rhetoric...but you're right, you cannot say religion is a philosophy, it's just to wide to pin point it to one thing. I was simply saying, that there are certain ties between the two.

wow, a few exchanges or posts, about a whole lot of nothing.

Peace

Sat Feb 01, 2003 2:35 am

Soul Khansenses

Joined: 12 Aug 2002
Posts: 2110

No, life perpetuates itself, but not solely through evolution. Evolution, as I said before, is just one mechanism of genetic change, and cannot be labeled as the purpose of life. No one has ever been able to intuit what that is indisputably, perhaps because there isn't one. I'd go as far as saying that life validates itself, and in that respect, I guess survival is really one of the goals of life. So I concur with you somewhat.

Sat Feb 01, 2003 2:48 am

firefly

Joined: 27 Sep 2002
Posts: 3990
Location: Montreal

Re: Blashphemy

MrHourGlass wrote:

Hiphopapotamus wrote:

Quote: So being observant, being aware of life's rhythmn and listening to my inner voice is my religion. I am everything, I am nothing, I am God.

To say you are God is really egotistical. The ideaolgy of you knowing the whole universe and knowing the knowledge of everything, is propostourus. You're not an omnipotent diety so I dont see where you're getting thinking you're God. Maybe a god but not the God. You are simply a living human.

I mean that's what I believe.

You can believe whatever the hell you want.

I just think that taking God's name in vain is kinda foolish.

To me, it's like life is a never ending cycle.

God is the neverending presence, the oracle, the connection humans choose to ignore when they do wrong..

I can go deeper but it's late and blah...

[]D e a c e !

I don't think he meant it literally. I think he means, he is understanding his own course in life, he is his own 'god' so-to-speak.

Firefly, You make some good points. But not all religion is primarily based on what you described it as. I, personally, don't know what to believe in nor follow, but I do see many positives in many different religions. For example, the teachings of temperance and moderation in Eastern religions, charity and philantropy. Respect for all life, decorum etc, blah etc. You get the point. So I don't know if it's safe to completely deviate from all religions and their positives. That's pretty close-minded. But if you feel right about what youre seeing, then go for it.

Peace

HourGlass

HourGlass

Neither of you understand what I mean. But don't feel bad, I still love you, for God loves all his children

Sat Feb 01, 2003 3:50 am

KrangTHE ORC BREATH

Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 811
Location: NSW, australia

To me the god of christianity seems arrogant... only letting people who acknowledge his existance into heaven, rather than rewarding people who have had good lives, and doesnt take into account any 'product of our environment' philosophy. Personally i think if there was a god he or she would be alot better than the one told in christianity.
Whenever i get into a discussion with a christian trying to convert me they use the line "but what if you're wrong and there is a god? you'll go to hell". But the way i see it, if there was a god who was as almighty as they say, he'd reward me for having a good life, and most likely dissaprove of using fear to entice people to join the religion, rather than displaying arrogance.

My own personal beliefs is that this physical reality in which we live is a projection of our minds, and we're part of a collective conciousness. I believe there are other dimensions/realities aswell which we cant comprehend from our state in this reality. I believe these dimensions and realities are all existing simultaneously, including time, and the projection is a way of viewing ourselves (or ourself) subjectively.

But thats just me..............

:)

Sat Feb 01, 2003 6:33 am

firefly

Joined: 27 Sep 2002
Posts: 3990
Location: Montreal

^^^^^^^
Well said man.

Sat Feb 01, 2003 10:18 am

Lintilla

Joined: 24 Jan 2003
Posts: 50
Location: California

Religion is a philosophy

As per definition of the dictionary, Religion is a philosophy

1. Love and pursuit of wisdom by intellectual means and moral self-discipline.
2. Investigation of the nature, causes, or principles of reality, knowledge, or values, based on logical reasoning rather than empirical methods.
3. A system of thought based on or involving such inquiry: the philosophy of Hume.
4. The critical analysis of fundamental assumptions or beliefs.
5. The disciplines presented in university curriculums of science and the liberal arts, except medicine, law, and theology.
6. The discipline comprising logic, ethics, aesthetics, metaphysics, and epistemology.
7. A set of ideas or beliefs relating to a particular field or activity; an underlying theory: an original philosophy of advertising.
8. A system of values by which one lives: has an unusual philosophy of life.

You have to remember that at the time God(s) was / were invented, Science (our new religion) did not exist as such, instead fear of natural occurrences (such as simple things as lightning and thunder, as well as sickness, childlessness and so forth) was concurrent. The original purpose of religion (in my simple eyes) was to soothe people. Religion exists since the beginning of humanity, in purpose of explaining occurrences within one's life. So, looking at Philosophy and Religion from that aspect, Religion, once, has been a Philosophy, both are based on Faith, and the reasoning of godly activity was logic for everyone. "Oh, I am childless. Why? Someone must be punishing me." To sum up, religion was originated by the ever-surfacing question as to why (purpose), the same as Philosophy.

From there religion of course evolved into a tool to keep people under control in most cases.
I say, be responsible and live consciously, try to get the best out of you and you cannot go wrong but that is just me.

Sat Feb 01, 2003 10:38 am

August Spies

Joined: 09 Aug 2002
Posts: 1979
Location: D.C.

Quote: I'm almost sure the Old Testament was written before the pre-socratic era. The old testament, is a part of the Bible.

heh.

well yes, the old testement was but that is not "the bible" that is the Torah (right?). The bible is both testemant stuck together. Regardless, you claim that the era of religion and the era of philosophy are seperate time periods is wrong. Christianity and Islam are both coming after philosophy. :P

Lintilla

First off all those are too broad definitions for philosophy. Specifically the last two. But regardless, even by your EIGHT definitions religion really only fits into the very last (meaning least used definition) and perhaps into the seventh.

EDIT: and id note that this does not mean religion is a philosophy, it means that we are using seperate definitions of the term. Term 7 and 8 clearly are distinct usages from the previous definitions. No need to get into semantics.

and the reasoning of godly activity was logic for everyone.
No. The "reasoning" of religion is not logical. It is not philosophical reasoning. Just because you think a thought, or have some twisted "logic" to back up some groundless belief does not mean you have created a philosophy. Come on now. Give the term some justice.

Im sorry, but a scientist studying the phenomon of gavity, gathering evidence and then making a theory based on logical thinking and evidence is different from someone just saying "god did it" with no reference to evidence, facts, logic or anything philosophical or scientific.

The original purpose of religion (in my simple eyes) was to soothe people.

I would disagree a bit. The original purpose of religion, for most parts of the world, was to CONTROL people. It was a means of surpressing the masses. It was a way to be a Pharoh and tell your slaves that they had to work hard their whole life but that they would get a place in heaven for all enternity as a reward.

From there religion of course evolved into a tool to keep people under control in most cases.

oh well maybe we do agree here.

Sat Feb 01, 2003 11:25 am

August Spies

Joined: 09 Aug 2002
Posts: 1979
Location: D.C.

Okay here is an argument against the chirstian type God for the religious posters here. Tell me what you think.

An omniscient being does not think. Thinking the is process of getting from a problem to a conclusion. An omniscient being knows everything isntantly before havning thought of anything.

An omnipotent god does not have desires or needs. As an all powerful being, it does not have needs or desires because it instanlty and fully statisfies itself completely.

As such, this bieng would have no need for people to whorship him. In fact, such a being would not ACT at all. A being without desires or needs or wants does not ACT. It is self-satisfying in the fullest.

The Christian God is an inert god. The christian god would thus not have created ANYTHING, much less a universe where one planet of people would whorship him or burn for eternity.

Sat Feb 01, 2003 11:36 am

mortalthoughtsLAME KID

Joined: 12 Dec 2002
Posts: 11616
Location: MI

you guys think to much :)

Sat Feb 01, 2003 11:41 am

Lintilla

Joined: 24 Jan 2003
Posts: 50
Location: California

August Spies wrote:

Quote: I'm almost sure the Old Testament was written before the pre-socratic era. The old testament, is a part of the Bible.

heh.

well yes, the old testement was but that is not "the bible" that is the Torah (right?). The bible is both testemant stuck together. Regardless, you claim that the era of religion and the era of philosophy are seperate time periods is wrong. Christianity and Islam are both coming after philosophy. :P

Lintilla

First off all those are too broad definitions for philosophy. Specifically the last two. But regardless, even by your EIGHT definitions religion really only fits into the very last (meaning least used definition) and perhaps into the seventh.

EDIT: and id note that this does not mean religion is a philosophy, it means that we are using seperate definitions of the term. Term 7 and 8 clearly are distinct usages from the previous definitions. No need to get into semantics.

and the reasoning of godly activity was logic for everyone.
No. The "reasoning" of religion is not logical. It is not philosophical reasoning. Just because you think a thought, or have some twisted "logic" to back up some groundless belief does not mean you have created a philosophy. Come on now. Give the term some justice.

Im sorry, but a scientist studying the phenomon of gavity, gathering evidence and then making a theory based on logical thinking and evidence is different from someone just saying "god did it" with no reference to evidence, facts, logic or anything philosophical or scientific.

The original purpose of religion (in my simple eyes) was to soothe people.

I would disagree a bit. The original purpose of religion, for most parts of the world, was to CONTROL people. It was a means of surpressing the masses. It was a way to be a Pharoh and tell your slaves that they had to work hard their whole life but that they would get a place in heaven for all enternity as a reward.

From there religion of course evolved into a tool to keep people under control in most cases.

oh well maybe we do agree here.

Those definitions are not mine but the dictionary's although I tend to agree with them.
No offense, you are going too much from your own mind, of course religion will not be logical to us in the world as it is, we're way past that point and moved to a new, more advanced religion called Science.
Religion in itself was invented well before the Egyptian aera, as I said, it exists since the beginning of humanity, proof of that has been found by archaeologists following scientific methods and it was made out of fear. Just go wild and imagine yourself without all the knowledge you have right now, the only thing you know is your little tribe around you, your cave, the small forest giving you food through weird creatures with pelts, funny tasting roots and green stuff. You live your life, having some fun by sticking your funny thing into some of the people with holes in them cause they smell oh so good. Life is good, you have everything you need. Then suddenly you hear a loud noise and a blinding light coming from the sky, followed by a roaring rumble and heat. The forest is on fire! You have to flee, your whole life is upside down. You return to the forest after a few days and the whole food is gone. You ask yourself why? You don't understand that it was a lightning that hit a tree and started off the fire, you just know that you have never seen anything like this in your life and it came from the blue thing above, the sky. Where did it come from? You say static electricity in the air? What's that? You think your life over, and then you got it! You were punished by the blue spirits that color the thing above you! Of course! So what do you do? You move to another spot and bring sacrifices to the blue spirits, hoping that they will forgive you for not thanking them for the wonderful life they gave you.

Sorry for the long story but I hope I brought my thoughts across. Of course religion was exploited as soon as it became in any way organized, even in the earliest times but the question of purpose is in all of us and it was satisfied and answered by the roots of religion at the time.
So I remain that the original idea of spirituality / religion was invented due to the same reason as Philosophy.

Sat Feb 01, 2003 11:57 am

August Spies

Joined: 09 Aug 2002
Posts: 1979
Location: D.C.

Lintilla:

There is no need to quote the whole my reply up top, it is just distracting.

anyways:

Quote: re·li·gion
1. a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.

No science is not a religion. Religion deals with the Supernatual relm. Science, by definition, has NO access to the supernatural realm. Science makes no comments on the supernatural, only the natural (which is why it is silly that religious people always ask science to DISPROVE God. Science does not deal with that, at best science can show that God is not necessary in the scheme of things, but that is all.)

Religion in itself was invented well before the Egyptian aera,
I never said Egyptians invented it, that was just an example. We have virtually no evidence from humanities beginings, but I agree with you that religion is likely to have been with us in the start. And I agree with you that it is indeed Organized religion that is set to control.

So I remain that the original idea of spirituality / religion was invented due to the same reason as Philosophy.

...so? I will agree that Science, Philosophy and Religion come out of the same human urge (to know the nature of things). Yet this DOES NOT make them the same thing. Science, philsophy and religion are three different things THOUGH there is much overlap between them all at different points.

trying to claim they are all the same things is pure semantic confusion and gets us nowhere.

Sat Feb 01, 2003 12:12 pm

August Spies

Joined: 09 Aug 2002
Posts: 1979
Location: D.C.

Quote: Those definitions are not mine but the dictionary's although I tend to agree with them.

I addressed this above. Philosophy, like many english words, has multiple meanings. You seem to be confusing several of them and then making an argument from there. Philosophy as "a system of values by which one lives ones life" is different from Philosophy as "The discipline comprising logic, ethics, aesthetics, metaphysics, and epistemology. "

you know... the word blue means sadness as well as one of the primary colors. This doesn't mean sadness = one of the primary colors

Sat Feb 01, 2003 12:21 pm

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