Freezeblade said that really early D1, near top of page 2 and before anyone else mentioned supernatural powers. Supernatural scum wouldn't know that some townies know of supernatural powers yet, this really strongly points to freezeblade being town. It is in fact dimochka who mentioned supernatural powers in his PM while being on the supernatural team, but he did it much later after others had already opened the can of worms. Dimochka should have found freezeblade townie here and didn't.

P.S. LaserGuy is doing an excellent job of finding his teammates reasonably scummy. He's bad at fabricating cases against townies (like bessie D2) but he's good at busing just the right amount.

mpolo wrote:It was Bard who decided to kill you (he sent Sabrar and then changed to you…) He said it was better to get rid of you sooner than later.

I'd guess he didn't like how strongly I was defending Madge then. That makes sense.

"Everything I need to know about parenting I learned from cooking. Don't be afraid to experiment, and eat your mistakes." - Cronos

Who should I protect tonight, GoJoe? Should I continue protecting Sabrar as I've done every night so far? Or is he really supernatural taking me for a ride? Perhaps I should target LaserGuy... If Bard is town, LaserGuy will be confirmed. Speaking of which, I suppose I should protect SirG. Yes, that's right.

BoomFrog wrote:D2 I read you as townie Bessie annoyed that everyone always sees her as Townie, trying to act scummy so she could see who wasn't really trying to read her. Which is a townie thing to do hence the:"Sorry" when I read you as town.

I'm amused thinking about where this cycle is going to end up if you keep getting town roles.

I wasn’t so much annoyed as trying to act a bit scummy to put pressure on SDK to claim. And I do think I had some valid points. Like being labeled town when I had no content. SDK, YOLOSWAG, and plytho all marked me as town when the entirety of my content was “Confirm.” Two are scum and the other was trying to get me killed. And it kinda worked in flushing out scum LaserGuy, I let him needle me over this (and other stuff) and he looked scummy for it. Unfortunately it seems like no one else is finding him all that scummy. He hasn’t even gotten a vote from anyone else. He did play a much better D3, and when Bard flips scum he may be safe tomorrow.

As to where this will end up, I don’t know, maybe I will eventually end up with a meta that makes it tough for me to continue playing. Though I’m pretty sure more players quit for being auto-labeled scummy than townie, which must make it quite taxing to play.

And BoomFrog, I'm so sorry, I could have protected you last night and I didn't. kalira gave me a 1-shot doctor for conventional kills and I was going to use it on you. My brain and my gut told me to use it. But I saved it because I was pretty sure SirGabriel and I were going somehow end up claiming D3 and I would need it for him N3, and after all he is confirmed town.

The more LaserGuy talk D2 the more I wanted to lynch Bard then him. People do tend to have a short memory but I think LaserGuy will be lynched D4 and either Madge or plytho D5. If it was plytho then we will have end game with GoP, Madge, dimochka and kalira. They will probably No Lynch and lose twenty dollars and my self respect.

@Bessie: Don't beat yourself up about it, the chance you successfully doctored with a one shot were really low anyway. But yeah, use powers earlier is usually better.

No offense to mpolo but I think your gut instincts about balance were of on this one. I like the rule that town should be allowed one misslynch and total failure at night.

Edit: just saw mpolo's post about the setup. Seems like a good way to do things. I guess I'll wait till the end to see,I'm sure Sabrar will have an informed opinion on the balance.

"Everything I need to know about parenting I learned from cooking. Don't be afraid to experiment, and eat your mistakes." - Cronos

So it looks like mpolo used this as a starting point. No way to determine how mpolo modified it (e.g. no Masons in original setup) what really concerns me is that DethStalker's unblockability is mentioned only in the Inter-Scum Balancing section, but that would mean both scum-teams started with 3 players which does not seem balanced. Also don't like the possibility of Godfather when Cop is already limited to sniff out only 1 type of scum. Overall I'm not a huge fan of the original setup (especially considering that it was designed for 15 players). Oh well, let's just see this through.

bessie wrote: I want to say that was Djehytynakht but I can’t remember which game (Secret Santa 2015?). Maybe Deva will see this and put it in the Gojoe thread for us later.

Correct player, wrong game. Happened in The Emperor's Groovy Mafia.

Vytron wrote:Oh, forgot to mention, when I prodded DJ, he answered that he could actually have posted more, but was taking advantage of the absent deadline to lurk. That is, he chose to stay quiet to avoid suspicion instead of talking, and it worked, and nobody noticed.

So scum lurking does happen, I think it's the first time I see it (I've seen scum lurking before, but it's the first time scum admits he's purposely lurking.)

So this is "LaserGuy is getting lynched day". Kind of strange already knowing the outcome of the day before it starts.

We settled on killing SDK. I'm going to roleblock plytho to give him some townie credit. We're taking a risk that Gopher could be a cop, but if I roleblock him and he isn't a cop, then we'll be in bad shape.

I still haven't decided how I want to play today. I think there's something to be said for just duck and cover and let them lynch me, but trying to dominate the conversation in any way possible might be worth a try.

Madge is tracker. plytho has Sabrar as Guild Cop and SDK as Supernatural Doctor. Hopefully SirG is vanilla mason. Kalira and Gopher are unknowns.

[edit]Just received this by PM... Uh... INTERESTING:

I am a survivor. If you can convince me your faction can win with my vote, I will signal you by mentioning the Greek language and a reference to the Scottish play. If it looks like you will be lynched, I hope you will guide me to one of your group so alliances can be continued.

Have to take a stance at some point. Locked myself in regarding LaserGuy and GoP being 2 of the supernatural scum-team, barring any cop result clearing them (but that needs to come from a very trustworthy source).Losing because of inactive Town would be super-bad, hope it will not come to that.

So Madge is town. Interesting... That was the one read I was sure on at this point. LaserGuy should be lynched, which is good, but there's no way we can get plytho and dimochka before lynching a townie. No lynch loses us the game too thanks to kalira the survivor. In other words, game over. plytho, you sound too townie. I need to watch out for you going forward - your cases are a lot of work, but feel very good. Well played. My town reads were good, but dimochka and plytho did a good job staying off my radar - no wonder I was so hard up for scum reads this game!

Gotta say, that original 15 player setup does not look balanced to me at all. Even if it is balanced, mpolo, I think your small changes stacked this against town more than it already was. The biggest difference is the fact that your game is a closed setup - that's a huge deal when you're talking about the numbers of two scum factions. Adding a survivor as a 16th player I think was a bad idea too. They are too often anti-town in the endgame (like in this game right here), and rarely help town in any real way unless they happen to draw a nightkill (but more often they waste a lynch instead).

That said, things could have gone differently if scum had chosen their actions differently (like the Guild killing LaserGuy, for example). At least, it wouldn't have been completely hopeless. It just sucks to lose thanks to other faction's choices when this could have at least been winnable. But that's not a slight on you, mpolo, just my general opinion that multi-faction games aren't as good as simple town vs. mafia. Thanks for modding, it was fun!

Hello Gojoe, I've been neglecting you all game. I think I'm going to sit out next 1-2 games or help mod, because work was supposed to calm down but instead it's been busier and busier.Very happy with my team so far. And pretty amazed we managed to lynch as well as we had. I think playing as scum is much more enjoyable when you still get to scumhunt. One of the most memorable games I played was HPMOR, where I lost track of how many factions I was in, but could basically lead the game from my position.

Anyways, all we need is a mislynch now. Thank you Sabrar for posting that link, because I was going to fake-claim watcher or JoAT. Now I'm going to claim one-shot guardian instead. Probably going to put some pressure on GoP, but actually try to lynch Madge today or tomorrow. If we do that, we're golden.

If you're curious about the origin of my avatar, google "Cheburashka".

Oh, yeah. Sabrar ideally would have pushed for a mass claim then afterwards posted the likely setup link. That would have probably caught a few scum. It's a sort of unfair way to scum hunt but it would have kinda cancelled out the unfairness of the setup.

Also, this game shows that a survivor is not half a townie. Adding full lovers townies would have been a good way to add one player without changing balance. To lovers are basically one player with two votes who is more likely to be nked or lynched. Okay actually I guess that's bad for town too.

"Everything I need to know about parenting I learned from cooking. Don't be afraid to experiment, and eat your mistakes." - Cronos

SDK wrote:So Madge is town. Interesting... That was the one read I was sure on at this point. LaserGuy should be lynched, which is good, but there's no way we can get plytho and dimochka before lynching a townie. No lynch loses us the game too thanks to kalira the survivor. In other words, game over. plytho, you sound too townie. I need to watch out for you going forward - your cases are a lot of work, but feel very good. Well played. My town reads were good, but dimochka and plytho did a good job staying off my radar - no wonder I was so hard up for scum reads this game!

Gotta say, that original 15 player setup does not look balanced to me at all. Even if it is balanced, mpolo, I think your small changes stacked this against town more than it already was. The biggest difference is the fact that your game is a closed setup - that's a huge deal when you're talking about the numbers of two scum factions. Adding a survivor as a 16th player I think was a bad idea too. They are too often anti-town in the endgame (like in this game right here), and rarely help town in any real way unless they happen to draw a nightkill (but more often they waste a lynch instead).

That said, things could have gone differently if scum had chosen their actions differently (like the Guild killing LaserGuy, for example). At least, it wouldn't have been completely hopeless. It just sucks to lose thanks to other faction's choices when this could have at least been winnable. But that's not a slight on you, mpolo, just my general opinion that multi-faction games aren't as good as simple town vs. mafia. Thanks for modding, it was fun!

Town has several little advantages that haven't worked out — kalira at least early on, would have been giving out townie powers. However, N1 it got sent to the NK and N2 kalira forgot to send a power. N3 she had decided to go on the evil side (but still sent SirGabriel a power, so we'll see).

Your "weak lyncher" condition was probably bad for town, though the scum fulfilled it for you…

The biggest balance point was that I didn't involve town in the lovers situation, so lynching LaserGuy before would have netted two scum for one lynch.

Also, a tied vote between Sabrar and a scum will result in scum lynch (due to his charisma).

And it was surprising that there were no cross kills, given that at various points, everyone had wrong reads.

But you are probably right that the setup is not perfect, especially as a closed setup… A 1-shot vigilante would have helped town, but I was afraid of too many kills.

I feel like the game is about to get a lot harder for us. Up to this point I believe I did pretty well. I liked SDK's glowing review The claims might be a problem though. I'm planning to claim apprentice wizard ,having a one shot doctor against supernaturals (this would have worked a lot better if we hadn't killed SDK ). I'm too not confident it will fit with the setup and it probably looks super scummy. Maybe a one shot cop makes more sense in the setup? There was a full doctor for supernaturals already, two one shot cops for supernaturals might make more sense?

I like Sabrar vs Gopher. Get us that one mislynch, Sabrar.

I also feel like the game's been very tough on the other scum team. Starting with the DethStalker lynch, which would probably have happened if DethStalker had rolled town. Then as soon as YOLO was lynched the game was over for Bard. So it really only took one of them to be found out for the game to be over for them.

Well, I'm guessing I was not RB'd last night, since SirG seems to be aware of my presence. I'm guessing bessie informed him of the one-shot doc I gave her, hence his looking for confirmation that I sent stuff to both of them in his whole "who did you send things to?" message.

So, if I wasn't RB'd, could I have been redirected to SirG? If I was, he also got my totally signaling willingness to work with scum message that was intended for LaserGuy. If I was redirected, revealing myself ends with SirG getting me lynched. If I wasn't redirected, it really does look like LG was trying to signal me in that message early on ("if there is an indie, town may have already lost"). That would seem to imply that I was right that he is scum. Unfortunately it was apparently also a little too scum-indicating to Sabrar.

So we probably really do have 3 scum on the supernatural team. LG wouldn't really have an incentive to try to recruit my vote unless he knew scum had a chance of winning, either through vote manipulation, parity, or convincing enough townies to be on board with someone's lynch other than LG's. The last seems unlikely-ish, though I think GoP is giving some openings for his own lynch. If he's scum too, this will be a problem for my hope of winning with scum and avoiding the NK.

I need to re-read and figure out how Sabrar came to the conclusion we still have 3 scum.

So, the question is, at this point, am I kingmaker? Can I reveal my indy-ness?

Scum need me for parity purposes, so if they know I'm survivor, they probably won't kill me because I can help them win. If they kill me, they have to do so on the belief that they can continue to stay under the radar enough.

Presuming LG is scum and lynched, we come out of night at either 4-2 or 3-2-1 depending on whether they kill me or not. Pattern continues as long as town keeps killing scum, or I can help them be at parity any of the following days. So I'm useful to them. (All this presumes no wackiness with votes to screw with parity, of course.)

If town is lynched, we end day at even numbers of town and scum, so game ends in town loss.

If I am lynched, day ends at 4-3. Which opens in the morning as town loss presuming NK is successful... Hmm.

If town know I'm survivor, they can't afford to kill me because they need to lynch scum, right?

If town is lynched today, we are at 3-3-1 going into night. Scum goes after townie tonight (because of the previous paragraph's reasoning), putting us at 2-3-1 tomorrow -- town loss.

If I am killed, game goes to night at 4-3 -- town loss again, presuming successful NK.

If scum is killed and NK is successful, we wake up in the same situation tomorrow as today -- N+1 town, N scum, 1 survivor.

So by playing the factions against each other ("town, you need to make sure not to lynch me because if you do, scum win", "scum, I am your only chance at parity"), I *think* it is safe to reveal survivor? I'll have to think about it more before I claim. Thankfully I have seemed townie enough that people seem willing to let me claim late.

kalira wrote:Well, I'm guessing I was not RB'd last night, since SirG seems to be aware of my presence. I'm guessing bessie informed him of the one-shot doc I gave her, hence his looking for confirmation that I sent stuff to both of them in his whole "who did you send things to?" message.

Sorry mpolo, that was not intended as a confused "things didn't go as I asked them to go" thing. That was just me attempting to thinking through literally all of the (logical/illogical) possibilities. I fully understand SirG getting the thing I intended him to get (presumably). I was just trying to think through whether or not it's possible someone redirected me to him, thus sending BOTH of my actions to him instead of just the one I intended for him (which would be bad news for me, of course, as I mention). My brain works in mysterious ways.

kalira wrote:Sorry mpolo, that was not intended as a confused "things didn't go as I asked them to go" thing. That was just me attempting to thinking through literally all of the (logical/illogical) possibilities. I fully understand SirG getting the thing I intended him to get (presumably). I was just trying to think through whether or not it's possible someone redirected me to him, thus sending BOTH of my actions to him instead of just the one I intended for him (which would be bad news for me, of course, as I mention). My brain works in mysterious ways.

It's not that bad a setup (I've certainly seen far worse!) and things could have been different, you're right. I think keeping this semi-open would have helped a lot all by itself. You hinted that there were two mafia teams anyway, I think it would have been enough to just know it was 3+3 right off the bat without hurting the game otherwise. Gives the town (and scum!) the information they need to lynch/kill properly in a multi faction game. It's all good though, no worries.

Supernatural scum have played this to perfection. Gotten town to remove the other team, and now we are all at each others throats, with no one the wiser.I can't believe Laserguy would make that falseclaim as scum....its soo obvious. Unless it was a ploy by Sabrar and Laserguy?

Note to self: dimochka is a wizard. I don't think he's been wrong yet this game. Some selected quotes from our N3 scumchat:

dimochka wrote:Hi team! So far so good. Here are my thoughts:

- Gopher mentions supernatural a lot, I think he might be that last cop that we should be worried about.- Based on plytho's result, Sabrar is not of risk to us from a night action standpoint.

dimochka wrote:my worry is that if GoP is a cop, he'll target me (more so to confirm me, but we know how that would turn out). I would rather kill him and block madge. SDK will most likely protect SirG as the confirmed townie, or Sabrar as the strong scumhunter.

Needless to say, we didn't end up going this route since we felt it was better to kill the confirmed doctor.

So I'm a tracker and GoP visited ME last night. He's claiming cop but also claiming not to want to reveal tonight's target yet. Considering I'm not dead, and he visited me, and I got a result that he visited me, it's very unlikely that he's scum (wait: could be scum role cop? but unlikely)

FMPOV, I want him to claim first; from his point of view, if he's a town cop, he knows i'm non-supernatural (likely town), so he should be fine for me to claim second.

I will claim tracker and wait to claim my target like he has. He should be fine with me claiming after him, unless he's scum.

I think...

I'm writing a supernatural romance novel, it updates the first weekend of every month. You can find it here.

dimochka wanted to kill Gopher last night because he might be a cop. I should have paid attention when bessie said dimochka's reads would be correct. I wanted to kill SDK (I rolecopped him N1) because we're likely losing our roleblocker today and wouldn't be able to block SDK anymore. I also felt it unlikely for there to be a cop left. Sorry dimochka!

I also went off script with my claim because claiming one shot so close after a similar claim from LaserGuy felt too risky and after Gopher claimed I felt pretty sure about the other roles: Madge breadcrumbed her tracker, I'd rolecopped Sabrar, there's an inventor (kalira) and SirGabriel is mason. My main fear right now is that SirGabriel has a doctor role besides his mason or he's the inventor and kalira is doctor. Now, SirGabriel was the first to mention the inventor so he probably received something so it's very likely kalira who's the inventor. Doctor and mason seem too strong powers to combine. So I think I'm safe.

Yo, I feel duplicitous AF. Looks like there are no redirecting powers (unless supernatural scum has them), so LG probably got my message. ATM he's the only one who knows there is a survivor (though he doesn't know who sent the message). Since he seemed to signal me, that prob means there are three supernatural.

I kinda want to post the below, but I'm still nervous about it. Scum could theoretically just decide to take their chances on fooling town and kill me off. Plus I don't want to necessarily spoil the game for everyone else by announcing "oh hey, btw, I'm pretty much kingmaker at this point, barring voting shenanigans."

So, before Sabrar decides to start picking apart the inventor claim and how it fits in to the Mafiawiki setup... I'm going to throw all my cards on the table. I am an indy survivor. Yes, I'm going to play both sides against the other, but it is what it is -- I must play to my win condition.

Presume we're at 4-3-1 right now; I have reason to believe that's the case. Town, you can't afford to lynch me, because it would mean ending day at 4-3. Successful NK means parity, parity means you're fairly sure to lose. Supernatural whatevers-you-are, I am your only chance at parity. NKing me doesn't help you at all, and it could even hurt your chances of winning.

So for right now, I'm just waiting to see where the votes go. I may still post something about being indy before day end just in case...

Any discussion of role PM wording even "paraphrasing" is dangerous territory and should be avoided as it's very possible to ruin the game with it. Sabrar has pushed it to the limit and, in my opinion, stepped over the line, dragging GoP with him.

#HBC | YOLOSWAG wrote:All Laserguy has to do is claim scum for kalira and they can lock the vote. Force no lynch, scum kills a town, then mafia reaches parity.

Only 15 hours until deadline. LaserGuy isn’t going for it, maybe inexperience? He signaled kalira but backed off when Sabrar pointed it out. He must know it’s kalira. Who else would reference the Greek language and Macbeth? (Hey, I did both! kalira, is that why you selected these, because everything’s all about me me me? )

plytho’s doing well but he’s leaving himself a little wiggle room to not vote LaserGuy. Sabrar should pick up on this (if there is a) tomorrow.

I’m reserving comment on the setup until the end because I don’t want to take credit away from dimochka’s Olivier Award worthy performance. Even with more townies I think he would have made it to the end. I was pretty sure on my town read (and unfortunately relayed my reasons to SirGabriel). Yes LaserGuy he is a wizard.

BoomFrog, I agree with you regarding the role PMs, but I’m sure that Sabrar is not trying to intentionally skirt the rules. But yes, maybe mpolo should review this. Vanillafia was crippled by discussion of role PMs (there was a warning then a mod kill over it).

Any discussion of role PM wording even "paraphrasing" is dangerous territory and should be avoided as it's very possible to ruin the game with it. Sabrar has pushed it to the limit and, in my opinion, stepped over the line, dragging GoP with him.

Thanks for noting the situation with the PMs, all. I think Sabrar was "technically" within the rules (he has threat, not enemy), but his question brought Gopher to specifically quote his PM with "enemy", so I wasn't really sure what to do about it (for fear of giving more information). I now took BoomFrog's way through it (though Sabrar stated in PM that he specifically avoided quoting).

If kalira were to decide to be a good guy, she could still tip this, with a bit of luck — the real reason for the "probably" MYLO is that she has a "bulletproof" for supernatural enemies that she can give out. That and some of the weird voting things that made me unwilling to commit. But she's worried about being NKed herself…

I thought that this was a private matter between the mod and myself but from mpolo's reply it seems that it's already public. Here is the pm I wrote to mpolo about breaking rule 6:

I would like to respectfully contest that ruling, or at least clarify my pov.I always follow the rules extremely strictly and ask for clarification if anything is unclear or out of line (please note previous pm-s).I'm fully aware of rule 6 and that's why I intentionally avoided using the word 'threat' which appears in my pm and used 'enemy' instead. I even substituted 'normal' instead of 'standard'.I didn't ask GoP to confirm a specific word or phrase, I was looking for confirmation regarding the content of his pm which can be paraphrased according to the rule. It should not be my fault if he interpreted it differently and broke the rule of his own accord.

I don't feel like I broke any rules, even with the continued discussion I didn't quote or refer to the wording of my pm. I'm always paraphrasing heavily when it comes to this. I'm against outside circumstances (like wording in pm) deciding the outcome of any game (1 previous example here),