Do Loud Pipes Save Lives?

THE DEBATE GOES ON. I’ve never struggled so much to write a motorcycle article as I have with this one. A reader challenged me to enter the discussion about loud pipes earlier this year. At the time, I thought it an easy endeavor because I had my own years of experience and opinion on the matter.

However, I made a mistake: I decided to research the matter. And in the process, my opinion has been somewhat modified.

The Search for Evidence: “Loud Pipes Save Lives”

As you, too, might be inclined to do when seeking more info on a subject, I did an Internet search for “Loud Pipes Save Lives” and read through numerous articles at the top of the search results and much lower in the results.

What I came away with was less certainty on the subject than when I started. And more so than any time before, I recognized that truth can be illusive.

Now I don’t know if my personal experience is typical, or atypical, but I did ride for years with high-performance (and loud), exhaust pipes – when I was much younger. To this day, I don’t know how my ears survived. (Well, the fact is, now that I’m considerably more mature, the question of how well they survived is just as murky as my research on the matter of whether loud pipes save lives, or not.)

Although it appears my hearing is not as good as it used to be, how much of that is due to loud pipes or lots and lots of very loud concerts and very loud music blasting through headphones is difficult to discern. I’m sure it’s safe to say that neither supported long-term optimal hearing. (I only started wearing ear plugs while riding several years ago).

Loud Pipes Are Impractical For Long-Distance Touring

My first coast-to-coast motorcycle trip was on a motorbike with a high-performance, non-stock exhaust system that did not endear the neighbors to my notion of a spirited form of transportation. Although I’ve ridden coast-to-coast across North America a number of times since, I recall that first trip as a highlight of my life. And although I could discourse about the virtues of that summer adventure, in the early 80’s, for hours on end, one thing that I realized without any advice, feedback or suggestions from anyone else, was that loud pipes made for uncomfortable long-distance riding (and also that I would be switching from chain-drive to shaft-drive motorbikes for touring).

Personally, I don’t like loud pipes. As much as I love each and every kind of motorcycle, the only ones that diminish my enthusiasm for the brotherhood are those that disrupt the neighborhood harmony by announcing their every breath coming and going.

So, here I am, a long-distance, mature rider, with hundreds of thousands of miles of motorbike experience, who “used” to ride with loud pipes, and who has not liked them for years, and who is philosophically opposed to them due to their inherent and ongoing damage to the motorsport in the way they impinge on the lives of those non-riders whom are adversely effected by the noise pollution of their very existence. Hence, wouldn’t you think I’d be a vociferous opponent of the same?

Which brings me to the point of the first paragraph. I was already aware of the lack of real evidence that supports the concept that “loud pipes save lives.”

But lo and behold, my research did find anecdotal reports that extol the virtues of loud pipes.

The Truth, or Not?

So, what is the truth?

Are those riders who state that loud pipes “have” saved their lives just plain wrong?

What my research did “not” do is change my perspective on whether I, personally, will integrate loud pipes back into my riding: I won’t. In fact, in the future, I will likely include an electric motorcycle (which are practically silent), within a stable of riding choices.

However, what has resulted from my research regarding loud pipes is a softening of my perspective. Even though scientifically unproven, if riders’ lives have been saved because of loud pipes, or if riders believe they are safer with loud pipes, those are some compelling factors – at least for those individuals.

Even so, such does not address the rights of others to “not” be subjected to the noise of loud motorcycle exhaust systems.

In conclusion, although I am not an advocate for loud pipes, and even though I disagree with the use of the most obnoxious ones, and even though there is no hard evidence in support of their use as a safety catalyst, and even though the loudest pipes do damage to the overall public perception of motorcycling, I respect that there have been “some” quantity of riders (however large or small), who are still riding, purportedly as a result of loud pipes. Which has caused me to re-evaluate their application.

Better yet, what do YOU consider is the truth? Do loud motorcycle pipes save lives?

745 thoughts on “Do Loud Pipes Save Lives?”

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left-right who cares they both will screw you for their own good … hey calif you vote in arnie [ R ] who made his bones with guns killing everyone on screen and a big ass biker who then sign’s into laws against gun’s and bikes .. hooks up with a people’s republic of mass. HO. a [ d ] then goes back to the screen on a bike and shooting more people ..and was doing the baby sitter …as much as anyone dislikes the reds they cleaned house when it was time for the czar to go .it’s down into the basement checking out the plumbing … no dragging that one out for the next 20 years ….loud mufflers who cares , save’s lives who cares , delude yourself who cares , fly your flags and teddy bears who cares as long as you feel good , make all the noise you want , or not … IT MEANS NOTHING .. just get on your bike and ride …

tc, this is true. i posted similar info earlier, to this forum regarding deficit spending in america:

“the former dem presidents (clinton, carter, lbj, jfk, truman) ALL REDUCED public debt as a share of gdp, while the last four repub presidents (gwb, ghwb, reagan, ford) ALL oversaw an INCREASE in the country’s indebtedness. while it is true the deficit has increased ~$1t/year under barack, the overwhelming majority is a direct result of prior gwb policies – $1t unfunded prescription drug plan/big pharma give-away, two unfunded wars, ruinous tax cuts, and the revenue loss from the resultant economic collapse.” the total economic collapse that started even before barack took office was unprecedented; the worst economic meltdown since 1929 – almost 80 years ago.

but some “conservatives” are confused by facts, don’t like them, and immediately babble on about how they are left wing socialist liberal lies. ;~)

other facts i posted previously that some ignorant “conservatives” don’t like, and all they can do is rant about them as being liberal lies, when they cannot factually dispute them. because they’re true:
-america’s healthcare costs – before romneycare, w/20% of its population not even covered – is far higher than any of the 35 developed nations in the oecd, as a percentage of gdp, and almost double the median oecd cost.
– the cbo has said – recently – that repealing romneycare will cost an ADDITIONAL $100b.
– the majority of entitlement programs are funded by payroll taxes, a separate tax from regular income tax. this includes all s/s and a large portion of medicare. this also happens to be an extremely regressive tax, paid for only by the poor and the middle class, as all income over $110k is not taxed, only income BELOW $110k is taxed.
– the fortune 500 companies pay an average of just under 20% in income tax.
– 1/4 of the fortune 500 companies pay an average of 10% in income tax.
– 1/10th of the fortune 500 companies pay ZERO in income tax.
– i earn ~$100k and pay almost 40% of my income to taxes; while the likes of mitt earn MILLIONS and pay about 15% of their income to taxes.
– the military-industrial-complex consumes almost SIXTY PERCENT of the federal discretionary budget.
– of the 35 developed nations in the oecd, americans’ tax burden is lower than only two or three of those countries, depending on how it’s calculated – almost the lowest on the planet!
– america’s tax rate as a percentage of gdp is lower now than it has been any time since 1950.
– america’s economy has always done better when tax rates are higher.

and, facts about income growth:
change in income from 1970 to 2008:
– change in income of the top 0.1%: +385% (average – $5.6m)
– change in income of the top 0.1-0.5%: +141% (average – $878k)
– change in income of the top 0.5-1%: +90% (average – $443k)
– change in income of the top 1-5%: +59% (average – $211k)
– change in income of the top 5-10%: +37% (average – $127k)
– change in income of the bottom 90%: MINUS 1% (average – $31k)
of course, since the meltdown that started before barack took office, the income disparity between the top 10% and everyone else has gotten even worse, as has been recently reported in the news.

expect more ignorant ranting from those who do not like to be confused w/facts. c’mon danno, we’re waiting! :>)

A new study, released by the Montreal Economic Institute (MEI), blows a hole through the conventional wisdom that conservative parties stand for relatively low levels of government spending, while those on the left of the political spectrum are prone to higher spending.

MEI’s study examined government spending in Canada, Quebec and the U.S., dating back to the Pierre Trudeau, Robert Bourassa and Richard Nixon administrations respectively. “In all three cases,” reads the report, “it is actually left-wing governments that most reduced the relative size of government.”

MEI reports government size as the ratio of public spending to gross domestic product.

In the U.S., Republican President George Bush grew the ratio more than any other, by 39%. Democratic President Bill Clinton shrank it by 14.3%.

In Canada, under Liberal Prime Ministers Chrétien and Martin, that ratio fell by 32.5%. The current government, under the leadership of Conservative Prime Minister Harper, drove the ratio up after the financial crisis. It has since reduced the size of government to roughly where it was when the Conservatives took office in 2006.

The report draws two conclusions. First, our perceptions about left- and right-wing political ideology don’t reflect the realities of the last four decades. The data tell a far more nuanced story. Second, we’re far better positioned to debate the role (and size) of government in a non-partisan fashion than we might have expected. The fact that actual decision-making hasn’t been as tied down by ideology as we may have thought means we can be more pragmatic about, for example, the austerity-stimulus debate that continues to rage around the developed world.

You mean, things like our concerns over unemployment, IQ ratings, work ethic or lack thereof, socialism, cellular telephones ruining the ozone (or whatever that particular gripe was about), where he was born, whether Bush was really the anti-christ, who killed Cock Robin, or whether or not lima beans are good for the digestion?

Nuff already about loud pipes. The loudest pipes apparently are the mouths of proponents. All the discussion is not going to change either opinion, for or against. Time to get a life and on to meaningful topics of discussion.

of *course* it is, vern! as long as folks think loud pipes save lives, and that anyone who disagrees w/them is an evil stupid marxist muslim liberal. and that everything wrong w/the world is due to evil stupid marxist muslim liberals. ;~)

Hey fellas,
Is this really the correct venue for voicing your concerns over unemployment, IQ ratings, work ethic or lack thereof, socialism, cellular telephones ruining the ozone (or whatever that particular gripe was about), where he was born, whether Bush was really the anti-christ, who killed Cock Robin, or whether or not lima beans are good for the digestion? I’m just sayin’…

and i guess all the conservatives love hearing about how all the immigrants have such a great work ethic. if the liberals think this is a taboo subject, then why is it the liberals who are for a path to citizenship for illegals, and the conservatives are so against it? ;~)

the fact is that good blue collar jobs are pretty much non-existent, compared to the 60’s, 70’s, and earlier. for every 1000 factory workers in 1970, we need about 5 today. there simply aren’t enough good jobs to go around, w/the same standard 40 hour work week.

there *should* be a better work-leisure life balance. 24 or 32 hour work week should become the new standard. give everyone a chance at making a decent living doing a worthwhile job. make leisure-industry jobs more attractive and more worthwhile, as folks will have time to actually *do* things, instead of mindlessly accumulating more *stuff*, that is choking the planet. i was one of the last people i knew to get a cell phone – a motorola i530; i did it & got rid of my land line. i kept it almost 10 years,; only got rid of it a few months ago, as sprint stopped providing iden service and the little brick finally became just that – a worthless little brick. so i *had* to replace it. and, there’s all these idiots waiting in line for the newest and latest iphones that were just released, when they have perfectly good functioning phones.

ya, i know – i am simply a mad socialist. so is the pope:

“We don’t want this globalised economic system which does us so much harm. Men and women have to be at the centre (of an economic system) as God wants, not money.”

“The world has become an idolator of this god called money”

“It is not a problem of Italy and Europe … It is the consequence of a world choice, of an economic system that brings about this tragedy, an economic system that has at its centre an idol which is called money”

Pope Francis said globalization had brought with it a culture where the weakest in society suffered the most and often, those on the fringes “fall away”, including the elderly, who he said were victims of a “hidden euthanasia” caused by neglect of those no longer considered productive.

“In my 40-some years in this business, the biggest change I’ve witnessed is the erosion of the American work ethic. It just isn’t there today like it used to be,” Mr. Funk says …

He fears that too many of the young millennials who come knocking on his door view a paycheck as a kind of entitlement, not something to be earned. He is also concerned that the trendy concept of “life-balancing” is putting work second behind leisure.

“I guess I’m a little prejudiced to the immigrants and especially Hispanics,” he says. “They have an amazing work ethic. They don’t want handouts and are grateful to have a job. Our company has a great success rate with these workers.” This focus on work effort is seldom, if ever, discussed by policy makers or labor economists when they ponder what to do about unemployment. To most liberals, the very topic is taboo and is disparaged as blaming the economy’s victims.

ps – unless your night train is decidedly different than a h-d heritage soft-tail, then i stand by the fact that my gen-1 scion xb is faster. maybe not in straight line acceleration. duh!

and regarding your lame grade school “bordering on gay” comment, who cares? if it *were* gay, who cares? i have no insecurities about my sexuality – how about you? and my *gay* xb still handles better than your night train – what does that make *it*? “lol” ;~)

doug s.,
straight but not narrow…

smart enough to know barack was born in hawaii, all your nonsense lies notwithstanding.

The way your thought processes work, I very much doubt your claims…oh, I believe your numbers, but, clearly, you forgot the DECIMAL POINT!…oh wait!…by the way you have so much trouble in traffic, believe everything obama says, and think liberal idiots like Noam Chomski are, somehow, “patriots”, you must be like Dustin Hoffman’s character, “Raymond”…the idiot savant, in the movie “Rain Man”….he was very “smart” also, like you claim to be…but had NO common sense and was out of touch with reality, like you….every time they asked him how much anything cost, from an automobile to a Hershey bar, his standard answer was “A hundred dollars..’bout a hundred dollars”…just like you and your standard liberal bull crap about the “top one percent”, “the evil corporations”, the “shrinking middle class”, etc.

I’ll concede that the middle class IS shrinking, and since Barrack “Bo Jangles” obama took office, with his disastrous, socialist agenda…fully supported by all the other lying socialist democrats…. it looks like an Alka Seltzer tablet in a glass of water….the only problem is, forcing America to swallow it won’t help the disastrous socialist legacy of you “spend more money!”…”everything should be free!”…”socialism/communism good!,.. capitalism bad!”, anti-American liberal fools.

Speaking of GM and bankruptcy….you don’t know much about bankruptcy procedures, how they work, or the results of filing them…nor, obviously, anything else…do you?…I guess Noam Chomsky hasn’t covered the truth about that yet, has he?

I know it really upsets you to be reminded of the truth… that the guy you voted for is in office illegally, and was born in Kenya. While I won’t respond anymore to your same old false statistics, it’s a waste of time, I will however, remind you of something I posted once before….it’s just one of MANY things about obama, Kenya, and you dishonest, lying liberals thinking that “the ends justify the means”, and then spinning the truth…and, in this case, your arrogant, pompous windbag obama, actually wrote it trying to impress people with his “I’m a citizen of the world bullshit”! lol……here it is from a previous post, just for you, Doug, as you once again said I was lying….you putz….

“Really?…well did you ever read the biographical statement of obama’s book publisher, Acton and Dystol, that they used to promote his books…from 1991 UNTIL APRIL, 2007?…that’s right, 16 YEARS!…but CHANGED IT IN APRIL, 2007….gee, I wonder why they took it down and tried to cover it up AT THAT PARTICULAR TIME?….”utter lameness”, huh?….it would appear that the only thing “utterly lame” in this “loud pipes” thread is your dishonest, limp-wristed defenses of your totally despicable, liberal/socialist heroes. Here’s your “messiah’s” bio, which HE wrote, and was content with until he was almost forty six years old….

Archive.org shows that the Dystel website used the following biography for Obama as of April 3, 2007:

“BARACK OBAMA is the junior Democratic senator from Illinois and was the dynamic keynote speaker at the 2004 Democratic National Convention. He was also the first African-American president of the Harvard Law Review. He was born in KENYA to an American anthropologist and a Kenyan finance minister and was raised in Indonesia, Hawaii, and Chicago. His first book, DREAMS FROM MY FATHER: A STORY OF RACE AND INHERITANCE, has been a long time New York Times bestseller.

Obama launched his presidential campaign in February 2007.
By April 21, 2007, the Obama bio had been changed to state that Obama was born in Hawaii:”

Now, since obama updated that biography in January 2005, after stealing the Illinois senate seat, he OBVIOUSLY read the words he had written so he could change it…wouldn’t you say?…or is that simple conclusion beyond your “160” I.Q. mental grasp?

Interesting, isn’t it?…and quite “coincidental” I’m “sure”, that they changed his birthplace from KENYA to HAWAII….AFTER 16 YEARS in print!…and even AFTER he had PERSONALLY APPROVED his earlier revision of January 2005…. just BEFORE he would be getting real close scrutiny from people….and there’s numerous other such examples of obama…and his supporters…. being perfectly content to have it known that he was born in Kenya for all those years…at least UNTIL some dishonest liberal democrat read the part of the Constitution that said he needed to be a legal “natural born citizen”…. WITH TWO AMERICAN PARENTS…. to run for the presidency…that dang Constitution seems to always be getting in the way of some lying liberal/socialist democrat, doesn’t it? lol…

Now, it “truly pains me” to call the lying obama, a liar….lol…but, just WHY do you think obama wrote his biography this way, Doug?…did he “miss speak”…FOR SIXTEEN YEARS?…or, “was he “misquoted”…FOR SIXTEEN YEARS?…or, “what obama meant to say was”….FOR SIXTEEN YEARS?….I’m sure you can come up with a very “plausible” excuse for this “oversight”, right?…I mean you’ve got a “160” I.Q….which has helped you immensely, I’m sure, to “escape and evade” all those bad, ol’ “fat, angry SUVs”…lol…As Bugs Bunny, who by the way, was reported to have an I.Q. of 161, would say…”What a ma-rooon!” lol

So, Doug, you say you aren’t an atheist?…well I don’t know of anything else who calls God, “dog”, repeatedly as you do, and disparagingly refers to other’s beliefs as “imaginary friends”….if you ARE any kind of “believer”, you are a bitter, sick, person….come to think of it…even if you ARE an atheist, you’re still a BITTER, SICK, PERSON! lol

I can see why you are enamored with the hostile, bitter, lying Alan Grayson….you two are much alike.

As far as me “wishing death on someone…”, I’d say you have nothing to worry about…after all, the “fat, angry SUVs” would have to be REAL, you idiot…think about it! lol

One last thing…if you honestly believe that my Harley Davidson Night Train is “slower”, and “handles worse” than your boxy little, bordering-on-gay, crap car, you really are a delusional fool.

LOUD PIPES SAVE LIVES!

P.S. I took an I.Q. test this morning, just for you, Doug!…here’s the results….

“You have an IQ of 172
IQ Test
Show your friends how smart you are by placing an official badge on your blog, profile or forums!
Directions: Copy the code below and paste it wherever you’d like the badge to appear on your site.”

“I won’t bore everyone else, and waste more time countering all your slanted statistics…”
– Facts are facts. Just because you do not like them does not mean they are not true. Sorry to rain on your fun.

“Have prices and the cost of living gone up?…yes, it always does.”
– The FACT that only the top 10% have seen any increase in income, and that the rest of americans, (you included, I suspect), takes into account the increase in prices and the cost of living. Duh! Again, sorry if you don’t like facts…

“Our Constitution guarantees all Americans…NOT illegal mexicans…the right to “the pursuit of happiness”, it does NOT guarantee your “happiness”.”
– Agreed. But when the cost of an education has increased 10-fold over the inflation rate for everything else, it is difficult for middle class americans to keep up. Of course, if you are ok w/big business running and owning everything, assuring that only the very few are going to do ok, while everyone else struggles, I guess you are entitled to your beliefs. But oligarchy is not what the framers of the constitution had in mind… the tipping point will be when no one has enough money to buy the stuff the corporations make; then the entire house of cards is gonna come falling down.

“Then, of course, there’s always the “ghetto-rat” mentality of skipping school, don’t do homework, don’t learn to read, play “midnight basketball”, practice your “slam dunks”, smoke/sell crack, knock up every low class, welfare “ho” that spreads her legs, and in general, bitch about “the white man”, and become more and more dependent on the government to provide you with food, clothing, housing….obama phones…etc.
If you are a low income, financial “failure”, with very few exceptions, it’s solely due to YOUR poor…”take the easy road”…choices, and failure to improve your skills and worth to an employer…and NOT the fault of the America education system…even as much as you liberal/socialists have damaged it…or the true American free market system of capitalism.”
– Not sure how this applies – it’s same as it ever was – there’s always a few lazy folks; every generation, every society has them. That’s not what I am talking about. Or are you saying it’s 90% of us? And you really believe that the children of the rich do not have a HUGE advantage over the rest of americans? “lol” ;~)

“I would think that even a low I.Q. dishonest liberal, like yourself, could figure this one out, but, I guess not….Corvettes, Cadillacs, Buicks, Camaros, and the S-10 pickup, are NOT obama cars because people actually WANT to BUY them…GM produces them to SELL…this creates JOBS…HEALTH INSURANCE…TAXES…and RAISES the standard of living for Americans….in fact, all those vehicles, except the S-10 pickup, were successful in the market, probably even before the Kenyan born obama even set foot on the island of Oahu.
The Chevy Volt IS the obama car, because GM introduced it as a CONCEPT CAR…NOT to sell until it’s technology was improved, and it was a viable vehicle. They knew it wasn’t ready for release to the public, because the extremely limited range made it UNSUITABLE for America’s highways, and no one would WANT TO BUY IT!, and they said so….But, the “emperor-for-life-wanna-be”, obama, wanted to show how “intelligent”, and “far sighted” he was, so he BRIBED GM with $2 BILLION DOLLARS of tax payer money to fund the production of the Volt…“
– Wow. Not all liberals are “low i.q.” sorry if my 160 i.q. is too low for you. (and, it is a FACT, btw, that the average liberal’s i.q. is higher than the average conservatives, so however low my iq is, yours is lower! Lol!)

Sorry – you can’t pick & choose. Gm gets bailed out – all its product is saved. Gm goes under – all its product goes under. You can’t pick & choose. If gm were managed better, and if everyone wanted to buy all those other cars so much, then gm wouldn’t have needed a bailout. And don’t bore me w/the babble that the unions did ‘em in. why didn’t ford need a bailout? Re: gm product, you can’t pick & choose – either we get ‘em all w/the bailout, or gm folds & we get none. Sorry if, once again, you cannot make your version of reality line up w/facts.

And you still go on about barack being born in Kenya? Repeating a lie ad nauseum doesn’t make it true? And you say it is *i* w/the low i.q.? lol!

“The Chevy Volt…the obama car….is a LEMON…a BOMB….a TOTAL FAILURE…a TURD IN THE AUTOMOTIVE PUNCH BOWL!….just like your pompous, wind bag idol, Barrack Insane obama.”
– Don’t hold back, dan! Tell us how you *really* feel about the volt! “lol!” you know what? I don’t like it either! But a lot of folks do. And, if it is a marketplace failure, so what? It’s not alone in the automotive world. Many automotive products were market failures. Not only gm products. Not only gm products that were bailed out by American taxpayers. And, as I said before, if gm itself weren’t a market failure in total, it wouldn’t have needed a bailout in the first place. Those pesky little things known as facts. Don’t they suck, dan? “lol”!

“If you really think…as you claim…that electing obama instead of McCain, and then Romney, has made NO difference in the way America’s economy, jobless situation, welfare roles, racial divide, relations with foreign countries…in fact, EVERYTHING relating to America…. you are even dumber than I thought you were….seriously.”
– The only differences would be that the rich would be getting richer than everyone else at an even *faster* rate than is already occurring. And govt would be sticking its nose in people’s private lives even *more* than they already do. (You know – something you say you don’t like? “lol”!) Re: foreign policy, ya, the rest of the world is *dying* to have the neocons back in power. The ones that, for the first time in the history of America, turned the entire world against America. The ones that truly blew the lid off the cauldron of the middle east, and made it a total disaster for anyone who follows. And it will be that way for generations to come. Bad as barack is, he’s a breath of fresh air, in the eyes of the rest of the world. Why do you think he would have won 75% to 25% if the election were world-wide?

“Just go on reading the dishonest, liberal illusions of the anti-American Noam Chomsky types, and others of his ilk, and remain ignorant, and America hating, the rest of your life….just like your socialist icon, obama.”
– LOL!!! Noam Chomsky, like me, loves America so much, we actually want to save it! Unlike folks that want to drive it into the ground, supporting the corporations, destroying the middle class, wanting govt to stick its nose into the personal lives of everyone. And, you continue to lie, as I have no love for Obama. Now, if he really *were* a socialist, if he really *did* push a socialist agenda, then maybe he would be an icon of mine. Dan, check out Bernie sanders’ agenda, compared to obama’s. I *like* Bernie sanders. I wish *he* were president. Bernie, like me, is not too fond of much of obama’s policies.

“If, in fact, you ARE a Jew as you claim….although I don’t see how an atheist can be a Jew, Catholic, Baptist, or any other religious denomination….and you feel as you do about the state of Israel, which was created to give a persecuted, tortured, and murdered people, an actual homeland, is the ONLY democratic, and America-friendly government in the Middle East, and is under constant hostile attack, and the threat of annihilation from obama’s muslim brothers, and can’t see why America has the relationship it has with them, then you are a dishonest, self hating, liberal disgrace to all Jews.”
– Wow – so filled w/lies and ignorance, I don’t know where to start… where did you ever invent the idea that I am an atheist? Because I think all organized religion is evil makes me an atheist? I know all about how/why Israel was formed. The world powers stole land from others as a bone to throw to the jews, to assuage their guilt for turning the other cheek about the genocide of wwll. Robbing peter to pay paul. And to set up yet another religious state. Sorry, I am not all that impressed. And I am not a self-hating jew; this is a label thrown around a lot by Zionists and others to attack those of us, (a sizable number, btw), who believe in the rule of law before the rule of imaginary friends. And you still babble the lie about “obama’s muslim brothers”. Again – repeating a lie ad-nauseum does not make it true. And in this case, obama’s actions clearly still support Israel just like every other president has done since 1948. not exactly what a “muslim loving brother” would be doing…

“Actually, I feel a bit guilty as I was somewhat enjoying exchanging insults with, what I thought was, at least, a very low information, whiny little cyber bully, and a lying, dishonest liberal ideolog….while you are certainly all those things, you are, intellectually, much less than that….you are an economic, social, and political “Quasimodo”….you are, in fact, simply a fool. “
– Lol!

“Go out and have another one of your “escape and evade” fantasy rides, you moron….maybe we’ll get lucky and the “fat, angry SUV” will win this time!”
– Thanks for showing your true colors. Wishing death on someone who points out facts you don’t like. I will enjoy my rides on bikes that are faster and handle better than my scion xb; you can go on enjoying your rides on your night train, that is slower and handles worse than my scion xb. ;~)

Well, Doug…your post certainly explains a lot of just why you know so little about so much…no Catholic schools for you’! lol

Jeez….for a guy that thinks he knows everything about everything, you damn sure have trouble showing that you know ANYTHING about ANYTHING, or that you have any common sense at all.

This will be short and sweet and right “off the cuff”…..after all, the defense of “truth, justice, and the American way”, is certainly worth wasting another 7-8 minutes of my time to respond to, yet ANOTHER, “Doug Drivel” post! lol

I won’t bore everyone else, and waste more time countering all your slanted statistics…I’ve done that once before, and you still won’t admit the truth about how skewed your claims are. You, like ALL dishonest liberals, take your desired, socialistic goals, then “back track”, and find “cherry picked” statistics, from other America-hating liberals, that are “spun” to “prove” your preconceived conclusions, without ever factoring in the “other side” of the true causes of financial, and social failure of the lowest income earners…such as the ghetto-rat bottom feeders, or welfare-white-trailer-trash, of obama’s base….just like the “global warming” charlatans do to “prove” their false claims.

Have prices and the cost of living gone up?…yes, it always does. Has the need to get a good…USEFUL…education or skilled trade to insure your future success in American society increased?…yes. So, for those people…especially the ones that make up obama’s “voter base”, that choose to stop their educations at the high school level, or LOWER, the reality is, they are setting themselves up for a lifetime of low income, low skilled, manual labor type jobs….IF they will even work at all…. and a bigger “need” for socialistic, government “aid”…such as welfare, food stamps, aid to their multiple, fatherless children, etc.

Our Constitution guarantees all Americans…NOT illegal mexicans…the right to “the pursuit of happiness”, it does NOT guarantee your “happiness”. The path is clear, and the choice is ours….join the “system”, get a USEFUL education that makes you actually WORTH something to an employer, such as engineering degrees, computer skills degrees, business degrees, medical/nursing degrees, architecture degrees, etc, OR skilled trades training, such as plumbers, electricians, auto or aviation mechanics, etc….NOT “art” degrees, “psychology” degrees, “human resources” degrees, “sociology” degrees, “women’s studies” degrees, “african history” degrees, etc….and you will be on a path to making yourself a valuable asset to a company, or even starting your own business…that is, if anti-capitalist, socialists such as obama, aren’t allowed to continue their destructive agenda and totally kill off small, AND large companies, or ENTIRE industries, such as obama’s concerted attacks on, and stated goal of, killing off the coal industry.

Then, of course, there’s always the “ghetto-rat” mentality of skipping school, don’t do homework, don’t learn to read, play “midnight basketball”, practice your “slam dunks”, smoke/sell crack, knock up every low class, welfare “ho” that spreads her legs, and in general, bitch about “the white man”, and become more and more dependent on the government to provide you with food, clothing, housing….obama phones…etc.

If you are a low income, financial “failure”, with very few exceptions, it’s solely due to YOUR poor…”take the easy road”…choices, and failure to improve your skills and worth to an employer…and NOT the fault of the America education system…even as much as you liberal/socialists have damaged it…or the true American free market system of capitalism.

I would think that even a low I.Q. dishonest liberal, like yourself, could figure this one out, but, I guess not….Corvettes, Cadillacs, Buicks, Camaros, and the S-10 pickup, are NOT obama cars because people actually WANT to BUY them…GM produces them to SELL…this creates JOBS…HEALTH INSURANCE…TAXES…and RAISES the standard of living for Americans….in fact, all those vehicles, except the S-10 pickup, were successful in the market, probably even before the Kenyan born obama even set foot on the island of Oahu.

The Chevy Volt IS the obama car, because GM introduced it as a CONCEPT CAR…NOT to sell until it’s technology was improved, and it was a viable vehicle. They knew it wasn’t ready for release to the public, because the extremely limited range made it UNSUITABLE for America’s highways, and no one would WANT TO BUY IT!, and they said so….But, the “emperor-for-life-wanna-be”, obama, wanted to show how “intelligent”, and “far sighted” he was, so he BRIBED GM with $2 BILLION DOLLARS of tax payer money to fund the production of the Volt…which, since it was then “free” to GM, they were more than happy to do. Of course, the Volt, as GM KNEW, due to it’s extremely limited range, was not popular with the BUYING public…so it sat there on the car lots. In fact, for every single Chevy Volt that some fool actually bought, GM actually LOST $10,000 dollars, due to the production costs per car, and the price people would pay, even with all the “incentives” GM HAD to give them….So, once again, the “closet muslim” fool, obama, stuck his incompetent, business-ignorant nose in where he knew nothing…like everything else he tries to manage…and another multi-billion dollar waste of taxpayer money was racked up by the pompous, incompetent, charlatan, obama.

And, by the way, “genius”, GM filed bankruptcy anyway…which is what the business knowledgeable Mitt Romney said they SHOULD do…so, the total waste of American taxpayer money that obama ordered was nothing but ANOTHER failure by your lying, incompetent, “spend-spend-spend”, “Golden Boy”, obama.

If you really think…as you claim…that electing obama instead of McCain, and then Romney, has made NO difference in the way America’s economy, jobless situation, welfare roles, racial divide, relations with foreign countries…in fact, EVERYTHING relating to America…. you are even dumber than I thought you were….seriously.

In fact, as before, when I wasted my time showing you how wrong you are about just about everything you say, I won’t even bother to rehash this stuff with you because if you honestly believe what you’ve just written, then you are WAY too far gone to bother with . You won’t face facts, and continue to deny the truth…a waste of my time. Just go on reading the dishonest, liberal illusions of the anti-American Noam Chomsky types, and others of his ilk, and remain ignorant, and America hating, the rest of your life….just like your socialist icon, obama.

If, in fact, you ARE a Jew as you claim….although I don’t see how an atheist can be a Jew, Catholic, Baptist, or any other religious denomination….and you feel as you do about the state of Israel, which was created to give a persecuted, tortured, and murdered people, an actual homeland, is the ONLY democratic, and America-friendly government in the Middle East, and is under constant hostile attack, and the threat of annihilation from obama’s muslim brothers, and can’t see why America has the relationship it has with them, then you are a dishonest, self hating, liberal disgrace to all Jews.

Actually, I feel a bit guilty as I was somewhat enjoying exchanging insults with, what I thought was, at least, a very low information, whiny little cyber bully, and a lying, dishonest liberal ideolog….while you are certainly all those things, you are, intellectually, much less than that….you are an economic, social, and political “Quasimodo”….you are, in fact, simply a fool.

Go out and have another one of your “escape and evade” fantasy rides, you moron….maybe we’ll get lucky and the “fat, angry SUV” will win this time!

dan, i know all about the volt and about the bailout of of gm, and about israel and its neighbors. i know all about politics making strange bedfellows. which is why it doesn’t matter who is prez – dem or repub. these policies would not have changed a bit

about gm, you don’t think it would have been bailed out regardless of who was in power? so, you admit that the corvette, the cadillac and the buick and the camaro and the s10 pickup are all also “obama-cars”? cuz they wouldn’t be around anymore w/o the bailout either. you think detroit is in bad shape now? how do you think it would be, if there were no auto industry bailouts? don’t get me wrong – i would have loved to see gm & chrysler go away. but i am not so stupid as to know how much worse everyone in america would be if it really had happened.

about israel; it is no different than its neighbors – a fanatic country that puts church before state. if america had been even-handed about its treatment of israel vs its neighbors over the past 50 years, instead of letting aipac dictate america’s foreign policy to the benefit of israel, the wtc towers would still be standing today. even tho i am a jew, i am an american first. i detest any country that puts imaginary friends before the rule of law. israel falls in to that category. this does not mean i like islamic states; they, too, put the rule of imaginary beings before the rule of law. if these countries disappear – israel or any of its neighbors – i wouldn’t shed any tears. not too crazy about losing the wtc towers because religious fanatics don’t like the fact that aipac bought us, to support *its* imaginary friends instead of theirs…

dan, all i have been doing is simply pointing out to you that all your rantings are ignorant, because you fail to see any of this. i was not whining about repubs doing dastardly deeds – i am simply pointing out that both parties do this. you complain about dems sticking their noses in your biz? well, repubs do it too. i guess you are ok w/it when you agree w/it, but not ok w/it when you don’t? and i am the dishonest one? “lol!”

it’s the corporations that run things, not the dems or the repubs. the wealthiest top 10% are the only folks who have seen any economic gains since the 1970’s. everyone else has either lost ground, or are lucky to have kept their heads above water. and the top 1% have seen gains that are truly astronomical. the middle class in america is disappearing. the discrepancy between the wealth and everyone else has not been this great since right before the great depression in 1929. hmmm….

yes, dan, your ignorance is truly breathtaking. keep posting; the more you post the dumber you look. “lol” ;~)

DAN ..thank you some one got it .”RED queen ”..and one of my best pix ” redux ” sort of put it all together … as I remember / lived it in 1966 ..pix was so very true to the point on all points but hard for the mass to understand …another one is ” who’s in charge here ” …ans. ” an’t you ” …hope you get that …Detroit home to some great sounds when I was I young’in ….shame the tribe never listen to their words …ah days of my youth … mo-town and mopars … well all will be well ” a volt in every pot ” ..or as every ruski will tell you a ” Lada ” in every garage …the ruski FIAT 124…made the Yugo look like a caddy …dennis hopper ya well he did have insight in the movie ,did he not … and with capt America did see amerika ….simpler times

I live in Michigan, just outside the “razor wire” surrounding the violent rat’s nest, Detroit…it’s a “blue” state, so yes, Doug…EVERYTHING that doesn’t work here is the fault of lying, obama loving liberals…like you. lol

We’ve been all through the obama car “debate”, Doug…although there’s really nothing to debate, no use rehashing all that stuff again, as your failure to admit to ANY facts, no matter how much proof is presented…a typical dishonest liberal tactic…makes you a waste of time to even attempt to have a discussion with. You’re like obama…you’ll just keep “reading the same speech” until one of your “handlers” changes the teleprompter reel….you’re simply dishonest…like obama.

But, I will repeat, GM introduced the Chevy Volt as a “concept car”…knew it’s lack of range made it “not ready for prime time”, and admitted it. It was produced ONLY because the mud-hut-baby, obama, gave GM a $2 billion dollar…tax payer money of course…bribe to try to further the Kenyan’s, also “not ready for prime time”, “green agenda”. The Volt is a failure…not because the CONCEPT isn’t a good one…it is…but because GM, with obama’s taxpayer bribe, introduced it before it was ready. It’s just another example of how government…especially “touchy-feely”, dishonest liberals should stay out of business…something socialists, like you and obama can’t grasp…you think “wishing” something can make it happen NOW!…in the real world, that’s not the case…as your phony messiah is learning…much to the dismay of all Americans.

As far as your whining about past relationships with other countries, the old saying, “politics makes strange bedfellows” describes it well. The world is full of bad people…especially socialists and dictators, like obama graves to be…. and you have to deal with the lesser of two evils sometimes, then deal with the results. Unfortunately, liberals like you and the pseudo “Hawaiian” never learn that, and, as we see in the Middle East….an incompetent community organizers’s “good intentions” mean nothing but death and disaster. If your feeble liberal thought process can’t understand that Israel is surrounded by hostile, murderous muslims…with backgrounds and teachings similar to obama…who have jointly attacked and tried in the past, to totally destroy Israel…. then you will never understand the U.S. position on what Israel has in it’s military defensive arsenal. With obama’s failed polices in the Middle East, a war is surely coming…and I hope Israel NUKES ‘EM TO THEY GLOW! lol

Roy, I don’t know if it’s the Castrol, crack, or obama Kool-Aide, but sometimes your posts, though requiring a bit of background knowledge of diverse subjects, can be quite perceptive, and enjoyable to read….reminiscent of the dead actor Dennis Hopper’s character, and his drug induced, maniacal ramblings, in the movie “Apocalypse Now”. I think your reference to the “red queen” is excellent, and right on the money…good job!…unfortunately, with the lying, totally corrupt, obama and mass media’s help, she will most probably be the next liberal/socialist disaster in the White House….being responsible for the murders of four Americans in Benghazi meaning nothing…after all they were white men, and didn’t look like obama’s “son”, the dead thug, Trayvon Martin…. to the obama-phone using, ghetto-rat, democrat party base voters.

TC….it was a joke!…hang in there. lol

Returning to the central them of this blog, my Night Train’s Screamin’ Eagle slip on muffler’s “loud exhaust” note sounded particularly sharp and crisp in the cool morning air today, as I rode it down to the local bakery for some fresh bagels and cream cheese. I do this almost every Saturday morning at about 5:30 am, if the weather is nice…because my neighbor likes to “sleep in” on Saturday mornings, although his weekly work hours have been reduced, due to the on rushing, socialist train wreck known as obama-care…but, he’s a worthless, lying, liberal obama voter….very similar to Doug….so, who cares? lol

I have my reasons.

LOUD PIPES SAVE LIVES!

P.S. The Cleveland Clinic, praised in 2009 as one of America’s premiere medical facilities for it’s excellent doctors, medical services,and patient care, by the then newly elected, socialist, obama, announced yesterday that they will be FORCED….like many other hospitals and clinics…. to cut services, medical care, and doctors due to the enormous new FEDERAL burdens and expenses of the disastrous monstrosity known as…..obama-care.

roy, you said, among other things:
“…but that’s between you and dan .you guys are at the higher level then I am .and still think it matters as to ”my ”side is better or will solve something …me it’s ” say hello to the new boss, same as the old boss ”..[ the who ]…”

no, sorry, i am on the same page as you on this. “my side” has nothing to do w/the current resident of the whitey house. i agree w/your quote of “the who” lyrics 100%. there are very few politicians who are actually on “my side”. i can count alan grayson, bernie sanders, and dennis kucinich. after that, i draw a blank… i remember very well, the email i sent out to all my friends, after the dems regained control of the house of reps back in 2006:

“incompetence triumphs over evil!”:

the fact is, america is all for using nerve gas if it suits its purpose. it’s all for terrorists, and dictator “strong men”, and thugs and wmd’s, if it suits its purpose. but, if it doesn’t suit its purpose, then it’s bad bad bad! why is it ok for israel to have wmd’s, for it not to sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty, or the chemical weapons convention? why is it ok for israel to break u.n. resolutions, but not palestine? and what about whistle-blowers? america is all for whistle blowers if it suits its purpose. but if you reveal secrets it doesn’t want you people to know about, then it’s bad bad bad! what party is in power is, as you say, largely irrelevant.

doug the ”little tykes ” remark was the red queen answering back .. that ya she was going to buy into your defense and let you live [ no off with his head ] or no fine no fixie the cat … it was not mine … smoking crack , freebasing, or hooked with lean its all the same to me so I really do not care … the little tikes will just grow up wearing the hat side ways and pants down with the draws showing and O.D. on smack with a paint can and paper bag in their hand ..in some meth. lab trailer called home..so what’s a few carbons floating around the air . no real big loss ..to me ..but maybe to some vote group ?? but that’s between you and dan .you guys are at the higher level then I am .and still think it matters as to ”my ”side is better or will solve something …me it’s ” say hello to the new boss, same as the old boss ”..[ the who ]…my point is AGAIN it’s ” show me the $ time ” no one cares about loud pipes . .it’s moved on to clean air and $$$ for the soul saver’s … never let a crisis go with out making $$ out of it folks .so the loud muffler is the way .just a tool .to the keys of the kingdom and all it’s riches ..me I tend to listen to what the door knob said ..and not the white knight who talks backwards …as the red queen once said ” yo dudes who cares , what diff does it matter now ” …

dan, the depth of your ignorance knows no bounds. i will just pick two of your totally inane statements; i do not have all day to wade through the shit you spew.

– “…another power outage…my grid was obviously designed and built by liberals! lol”

the power grid was built by and designed by liberals? so, any thing that goes wrong in your narrow little mind and your narrow little world – it’s all the fault of liberals? “lol” (?!?) jeez… reagan’s dropping iraq from amreica’s terrorist nations list so america could sell iraq ingredients used in production of chemical weapons, and then send cia operatives to iraq to provide them w/intelligence against iran, so as to more effectively use those chemical weapons – i guess that was to be blamed on “the liberals”, too?

– “…although I suppose that IF there were a runaway obama-car (Chevy Volt)…”

this is the 2nd time you brought up this nonsense. i won’t debate the merits of whether or not this car is decent or not. reasonable persons can agree to disagree. tho the automotive world has bestowed it w/numerous awards. so, i guess, if it *were* an obama-car, he could be proud of it.

but, it is *not* an “obama-car”. i hate to break it to you; the volt has been in development since *at least* january of 2006, and it debuted at the january 2007 north american international auto show. gm debuted the production iteration in september of 2008. barack took office in january of 2009. but, i guess you don’t like to be confused w/facts? or, i guess you also think the new camaro and the new corvette and the new cadillac, and the new buick, etc – they are all obama-cars?

I considered what you proposed, tried to imagine scenarios where your idea would be commonly plausible, and, came to a different conclusion than you have…that’s all. I just find it to be a bit of a “stretch” to imagine just the “right” factors coming into play that would lead to the outcome that you present, at least in any common, everyday traffic situation, although I suppose that IF there were a runaway obama-car (Chevy Volt), who’s driver had passed out, and it was accidentally running a red light, while, at the same time a blind old lady was crossing the street, and a courageous, though openly “gay”, Boy Scout who was attempting to save her, was momentarily distracted by the sound of “loud pipes” approaching, and stopped to look at the motorcycle…the blind old lady certainly COULD be at an increased risk due to the “loud pipes”…is that the kind of thing you might have been thinking of? lol

Meanwhile, I think it’s pretty obvious that ANY additional safety factors that a biker uses….lights on, highly visible clothing, “loud pipes”, etc….are simply things that can be used to help make vehicle drivers MORE aware of the proximity of a motorcycle….therefore, safer for the motorcyclist….sorry, but the old lady’s on her own.

You may dislike the “loud pipes” of others, but I don’t see how you can honestly argue that making other drivers more aware of your presence is “dangerous to others”, or actually increases danger…to anyone. I just don’t see it….are you related to Doug? lol

But, you are wrong, “mi amigo”, as ALL THINGS ARE POLITICAL now…part of the true Clinton legacy, therefore, examples pointing out the actual politics of WHY liberals refuse to just let us all live our lives, and ALWAYS want more laws restricting our choices…as in California…. is very appropriate….here, or anywhere else.

As far as my political “rants”, it’s unfortunate you don’t like them. I use them as a continuing effort to show the hypocrisy of liberals…such as those in California, and Washington D.C….that are ALWAYS the people behind passing yet another law to take yet another freedom of choice from Americans. The point being, okay, “you” don’t like “loud pipes”…do we really need ANOTHER law to outlaw them?…then what?…motorcycles are more hazardous to the rider than traveling in a car…or do you deny that also?…so, as the draconian monstrosity known as obama-care takes effect, and liberals thugs take even more brutish political power over the American population, just how long do you think it will be before the “king” obama appointed bureaucrats decide that them ALLOWING people to ride motorcycles “increases health care costs for everyone else”, and bikes are either outlawed entirely, OR the liberals will greatly increase the obama-care “premiums” ( actually a tax penalty ) that all bikers will be forced to pay….or go to jail?…..politics.

It’s part of my effort to try to open the eyes of the low information, “Kool-Aide” drinkers, and to show what is really behind all those obama-care, “Big Gulp”, “Twinkie Tax”, gun control, seat belt laws, helmet laws, “loud pipe laws”, etc…they have NOTHING to do with actual healthcare, or “safety”…it’s about political POWER, and money….as Roy…correctly…continues to point out….unfortunately, he then falls into the old liberal “mantra”…”it’s for the ‘little tykes” excuse….politics.

EVERYTHING really is political these days…part of the true Clinton legacy.

Doug, you know, it’s actually very difficult to even try to be “nice” to you…you simply won’t allow it.

You get extremely upset, and start the usual, personal, liberal attacks at even a hint of disagreement with your fantasies…I mean, “stories”. Did I call your story about the old lady a lie?…no…though, coming from you, it most likely is, to use a liberal term…”disingenuous”. I was nice, I simply tried to point out the error in you “logic” of implying that, somehow, “loud pipes” were responsible for your imaginary…I mean “real”…old lady deliberately causing a crash with your imaginary…OOPS!, I mean “real”…acquaintance, while you presented absolutely nothing to even remotely support your unconvincing conclusion….a common, and constant liberal failing when trying to support their point of view….kind of like the false data of the “global warming/man caused climate change”, lying liberal wackos….politics.

You are at your worst when you try to use what little “logic” you possess. Anyone that claims that “loud pipes” actually “take lives” is simply letting their personal dislike for “loud pipes” overshadow any common sense, and credibility, that they might have…a very common liberal affliction…as you have repeatedly demonstrated in this thread.

And, as usual, you are incorrect in your assumption, as I easily “discern” what you are saying in your “seat belt” example. Actually, it’s one of your few…and rare…moments of clarity. I agree with it…and, as I have stated, believe in seat belt use…as I do in the use of helmets when riding, but it is none of the government’s business WHAT I choose to do…but, unlike you, and all liberals, THAT is simply not enough, you people have always got to have another “bandwagon” to jump on, and pass ANOTHER law taking away a person’s right to choose. I don’t like that way of thinking, and always oppose people like you…always liberals…that insist that “it’s the right thing to do”, and “they know best” about how all the rest of us MUST live our lives…or be punished….politics.

Also, as far as your normal, delusional assertion that it is “I” that “shows my ignorance”, I would suggest that you calm down, wipe the spittle from your chin, and go back and read your dishonest, flip flopping opinions, and clearly false stories of your superior riding skills continuously saving you from some phantom “angry, fat SUV”, and see just who is really showing their ignorance.

Actually claiming that “loud pipes ENDANGER lives!”, or making the statement, “i am just saying i don’t believe loud pipes save any more lives than they take.”, or to support the argument of “How many lives may be endangered because that car is now focused on you….” as arguments against “loud pipes” being a safety factor for cyclists to CHOOSE, is bordering on ridiculous, and I would question the intellectual integrity of anyone even attempting to try to defend those obviously false statements.

guys ..I do not care as to if it save’s or does not . that was the old thinking pro-con .. it’s moved [ calif ] and going fed soon to … you did it now undo it and give me $$$ for the dirty air , give him $$$ to recert the bike as it’s been tampered with …give him more $$$ to get your plates back ,..give them more $$ because your insurance has to go up with the points .what ??.loud pipes who cares… that takes training, $ for a machine …no sir it’s the air you screwed up …what can you say ” oh your worship I removed the cat so they could hear me a coming down the trail hippy-a-dippy hop , saved my life it did…so some poor tykes is worse breathing … hell they would just do crack anyway no big loss your worship..so what ” .. ya that will get you off ” not guilty sir ..go and spew the carbons into the little tyke’s lungs ..it’s ok ” … ya right

not sure why you must bring up your lame ignorant politics into this, yet again. do you truly enjoy advertising to the blogosphere how ignorant you really are?

and, what am i admitting? “loud pipes save lives”. look at that statement. if loud pipes killed two people for every one they saved, do they “save lives”? i am not saying this is the correct ratio, i am just saying i don’t believe loud pipes save any more lives than they take. but, you can twist my comments any way you like, to suit your agenda. you do it for everything else….

now, let’s talk about seatbelt use in cars, as a comparison. i could say seatbelt use kills. because it does. in some few instances, folks would have been killed if wearing seatbelts, but survived because they were not, and were thrown clear of some disaster. but, in the overwhelming majority of cases, seatbelt use saves lives.

so, *in general* – seatbelt use saves lives. even tho in some small number of instances, it may kill. i do not believe the same can be said about loud motorcycle exhaust pipes. even tho i freely acknowledge that in some small instances, loud pipes may have saved somebody’s life, i do not believe it is in such large number as to be generally true, the way it is w/seatbelts in cars. sorry if you cannot discern the differences in what i am saying…

I’m sorry that any point of view other than your own is “Far Fetched” As far as I see it, for every advantage of loud pipes there are even more disadvantages. So as to the question.. No I do not believe they save lives. You are free to your opinion and your political rants that really have no place in this topic.

choose,.. all gone now in calif … why $$$$$$ tickets …pissed off old ones …there is fed noise limits … because of other’s ear damage … louder the pipes the deafer the rest over time , so none will hear you in the end …. so limits that all could live with… but for a few NO can do ….so the empire strikes back … in your wallet , and when all need air cats then what will the fine be when you dump the muffler ….sound test not needed .. dot sticker ?.sir..oh no …carb sticker ? sir ..oh no … here’s two tickets and points on your permit and the bike has to be towed home and re cert before your reg is good again … loud pipes will save lives by the dark force taking them off the street … so all this means …O ..its past that he said she said …they smell $$$$$$ …in the wind and that’s all that matters …rock on folks argue between your selves no one cares now …times up ..it’s past.

Well, this is certainly refreshing, and very welcome reading this morning!

These are all excellent posts, in my opinion.

I will simply add that I have NEVER stated, nor do I maintain the “fantasy” that “loud pipes” will save lives is ALL situations…that, in my opinion, would simply be untrue.

I DO, however, strongly maintain that “loud pipes” CAN, and DO…by my own personal experiences…make SOME drivers take a little more notice, giving the nearby motorcyclist…ME!…some extra attention…. be they “good drivers” or “bad drivers”… than they might otherwise take when they hear the sound of my Night Train near by.

While I like pretty much all motorcycles, I happen to have…and HAVE had, since I was eight years old, and got my first ride on my uncle’s Harley Davidson Electra Glide….a particular fondness for the sight, and SOUND of big V-Twin motorcycles….to me, they are simply rolling pieces of “art” that also produce a melodious “music” that “soothes my soul”, and I love them. I realize that there are many others that can’t see the same qualities in them as I do, and that’s fine, as there are many other brands, and types of bikes to choose from.

What I have a MAJOR problem with, is those that continuously claim that the sound of “loud pipes”, that many big V-Twin motorcyclists use, can NOT….no way, no how….EVER be of any benefit in alerting that nearby driver…be they “good” or “bad”…that a motorcycle is nearby, and add that simple, but valuable, safety factor…no matter how small…to the “arsenal” of things bikers try to use to stay alive.

Gary, while I appreciate your supposition about “distracting” a driver, so that they focus more attention on the nearby motorcyclist, THAT is exactly the point of the argument, and an additional feature of enjoying the sound…NOT racket…of “loud pipes”. I must admit however, that I find the claim that “loud pipes” actually increase risks to “others’, to be really stretching the limits of reason, and in fact, is pretty far fetched….though I will admit, it’s possible….however, if the driver in question is THAT incompetent, there is simply not much we, as bikers, can do to help out all those “others”, and in fact, maybe even MORE reason to have the “loud pipes” on our bikes…in my opinion.

Thank you, Doug, for simply admitting…finally… the “possibility” that “loud pipes’ MIGHT be an added safety feature for a motorcyclist…it’s unfortunate that your backbone isn’t made of sterner stuff.

As I’ve said, THAT is exactly the point to the argument, and we should ALL be given the right to choose for ourselves whether or not we think it MIGHT aid our survival on the road….if you don’t want them, fine…if you do, you SHOULD have the right to choose…and NOT have that RIGHT taken away by some freedom stealing, liberal bureaucrats….as in California.

I appreciate your story about your acquaintance and the old lady, but I’m not sure how “loud pipes” plays a part in it, as you don’t mention that her dislike for “obnoxious bikers” was due to “loud pipes”…maybe he was on an “ultra quiet” Japanese bike, and, just like my father…a WWII vet…”hated” all “Jap” things…or maybe it was because her “ex” was a biker, and dumped her for a younger “ol’ lady” and broke her heart, so now she hates ALL bikers, ala “Miss Havisham” from the Dickens classic “Great Expectations” lol

At any rate, it would seem…from the details in your story…that SOUND was not a factor, but, being VISIBLE to her was the “key” in her being able to pull out at just the right time, so as to not give your acquaintance the time to maneuver and avoid the crash…so, given those facts, would you also say that, maybe, bikers…such as you and your acquaintance…should try to be LESS visible, so as to keep old ladies like the one in your story, and all those other “angry, fat SUVs” from being able to visibly track you as they chase you through traffic?….something to consider.

However, unfortunately, in your post, your are, once again, demonstrating that undesirable characteristic of all liberals, in that you NOW don’t just claim that the premise of “loud pipes save lives” is not true, but that…NOW…you make the far fetched claim that “loud pipes ENDANGER lives!”

It’s kind of like the flip flopping of liberals who pushed the phony “nuclear winter” alarmist agenda of a few decades back, claiming that the skies would darken, the sun’s rays would be cut off, and the Earth would, once again, enter an “ice age”. Once THAT dishonest claim, with all it’s phony “data”, was totally disproved, the liberal “environmentalists” switched to “cherry picking” data to “prove” their NEW, already arrived at “conclusion”, that we now had disastrous “global warming”…no, make that “man caused climate change”, and it was a good opportunity to make even more dishonest money through more government grants and bureaucratic bribery and graft….especially now, more than ever, with the socialist obama in the White House.

Yesterday, a report was released…with a future report coming shortly from the United Nations…once again, totally disproving the false, alarmist agenda of liberal charlatans….such as the lying socialists Al Gore, and “king-wanna-be” obama…and PROVING that all the money obama is wasting on his dishonest “green agenda”…and the extremely huge increases in taxes, the “skyrocketing” utility rate increases obama told us his false agenda would cause, the damage to our industries, and loss of jobs that his phony, and bound to fail policies will cause… is simply ANOTHER liberal/progressive/socialist attempt to strip the rights of all Americans, and give the totally dishonest liberal democrat party more and more power over all American citizens.

So, since it has all been a sham from the beginning, don’t you think the lying Al Gore should have to return the hundreds of millions of dollars he’s dishonestly enriched himself with due to his phony agenda…and shouldn’t he have to give back his Oscar, awarded by the dishonest, liberal obama-ites in Hollywood, for his totally dishonest movie, “An Inconvenient Truth”….and even his liberal agenda driven Nobel Peace Prize, for his efforts to push that phony agenda on the entire globe?…don’t you think that would be the honest, and very appropriate thing to do?….if not, why not?

Just as you’ve done in your post…first admitting that ‘loud pipes” MIGHT save lives, then ending with “loud pipes endanger lives”, your lack of any type of core values is apparent….jeez….don’t you people EVER come to a conclusion that’s true…and stick to it?

ok, i admit it – it’s *possible*. but, as gary says, it is also possible that loud pipes endanger lives. and he cited how that might be.

a few years ago, an acquaintance of mine was riding his bike down the road, minding his own biz, when an older lady pulled out of her driveway and right in to him, totaling his bike, and sending him to the hospital. when the cops asked her “didn’t you see him coming?” she snarled at them “ya, i saw him coming, that’s why i pulled out, effing obnoxious bikers”, or something along those lines. she was arrested, but the guy was still in the hospital…

now, i know dan will say this is a made up liberal bs story, just like all the made up stories of folks purposely trying to run me off the road. simply because they hate motorcycles.

Dan, I was simply stating although in some situations you may be more noticed, loud pipe’s can be another distraction taking a drivers attention away from where it may be needed.
There for it could be endangering other people lives. Just another way to look at it.

Rick, “Good” drivers, still can be distracted and cause collisions regardless of their desire to be aware of their surroundings. “Bad” drivers…well, cranial-rectal disease seems to follow them, so I’ll not dispute your contention there. One of your comments that I laud and will support wholeheartedly is the misuse of the word “accident”. An accident is something that by its very nature was unavoidable. Do loud pipes prevent collisions because they made another driver aware a bike was nearby? I’m sure that sometimes that is the case. At other times the volume of the motorcycle exhaust is immaterial due to other circumstances. Yesterday I saw a Chysler 300 with all its windows down and rap “music” blaring at an unbelievable volume. It completely drowned out the sound of a Harley nearby. Only after the car turned right and pulled away could I hear the Fat Bob. Under those circumstances nobody would have been able to hear the bike, and therefore “loud pipes save lives” would not have factored in at all.

There is a lot of back and forth on this, but I think people are losing focus of the entire point of the original question, Do loud pipes save lives?

Not do loud pipes distract people, not do loud pipes give people headaches, not do loud pipes annoy people, not do loud pipes set off car alarms… All of those things are irrelevant, to if they save lives or not…

You have to put this into context first to be able to answer it. And the context is we are not alone on the road there are people in cars and trucks, on foot and bicycles and other motorcycles. Now all these people are broken into two groups, those that pay attention and those that don’t or more simply for cars, trucks and motorcycle, good drivers and bad drivers. We aren’t worried about the good drivers, they pay attention and are aware of what is going on around them. Typically unless there is some sort of mechanical failure they are not going to be at fault in a crash, so generally speaking loud pipes won’t help there.

That brings us to the bad drivers. How these people live past the first six months of driving is near miraculous. They are distracted by anything and everything, car radio, car heater, car wipers, adjusting their seat, pretty girl on side of road, handsome man on side of road, screaming kid in the back seat, nagging spouse in the passenger seat, combing their hair, shaving, putting on makeup, eating a Big Mac, reading a book, reading a newspaper, bird flying by, squirrel running by, and 10 million other things. Point is these people should absolutely positively not be allowed on the road, hell they probably shouldn’t be allowed outside of their houses (jk). The point being anything that can snap these people out of their stupor for even a brief instant will help prevent an crash and by extension probably save lives. So yes loud pipes do help when you encounter one of these people because the distraction of the loud pipe, draws their attention to you, which in turn hopefully causes a response some where in their tiny little brains to turn the wheel away from you… Granted that may cause them to turn the wheel right into something else, but that isn’t the point and these people are constantly hitting things anyways, so the only goal of the loud pipes is to prevent them from hitting you, which they do.

One final point, stop referring to crashes as accidents. An accident is when a tree limb falls on your parked car. If the car is moving with someone in it, then it is a crash and someone or something is at fault, and that someone is what the loud pipes is aimed at…

Well, Gary, I certainly agree, as do almost all…except one or two…of the posters to this thread, with this part of your statement….

“….but the crazy loud thunder of open pipes is a bit ridiculous.”

Your’s is an interesting take on the question of “loud pipes”, though seemingly just a little bit far fetched…at least to me.

I’m not quite sure what other “dangers” those other drivers and pedestrians are limited from hearing though, by “loud pipes”, as you suggest might be the case…is it the “ultra quiet” Gold Wings, which one can almost not hear anyway until they are practically on us?…possibly the “obama-car” (the failed Chevy Volt) when using it’s 40 mile range battery power?…or non motorized, “silent” bicycles?…or maybe that “loud” jogger passing by?

“Is it possible that you are more noticed with loud pipes?.. Yeah I guess so..”, you ask, then answer.

THAT, my friend, is all that us advocates of “loud pipes” are proposing, and you acknowledge in your statement….it IS “possible”, therefore, a “possible” added safety measure one MIGHT choose…if that freedom of choice is not stolen from us all….and we are put at increased danger by freedom stealing, liberal law makers, such as those in California.

While increased risk is a given when riding motorcycles, as opposed to driving a car, it’s certainly not the “alert and defensive RIDERS” that we all try to be that are the problem…it’s the distracted, inattentive, careless, cell phone using drivers that just MIGHT be jarred into paying attention…and not pulling out in front of, or dangerously changing lanes INTO…that “noisy” motorcycle coming by…. that we must continually guard against….for “line of sight” is uni-directional, and REQUIRES an overt action by the observer, no matter what color of florescent orange, green, yellow, or red you wear to be of any value to the rider…while “sound” is, despite denials by some….omni-directional….front, rear, sides, above, and below…requires NO overt action be taken by the driver…and CAN be an additional safety feature.

I personally am not a fan of loud pipes, I don’t mind the nice low rumble from a well tuned bike but the crazy loud thunder of open pipes is a bit ridiculous. Is it possible that you are more noticed with loud pipes?.. Yeah I guess so.. But there is another angle people fail to look at. How many lives may be endangered because that car is now focused on you and not whats in front of them, or the drivers or pedestrians that can no longer hear the other dangers around them over you. There is a point where its over kill..

Vern …I will argue that if they can make a buck off it they will ..in the name of saving something to make people go long with it and not bitch …like a gun ban…ban this rifle to save the kids but abort thousands .. but we know it’s deeper then that to disarm the people ..DAN it’s all falling apart for the king ..seen the news ..

Good morning all. I have to say I am amazed that there are any living motorcyclists, what with so many “irate cagers gunning for us” and “fat suv suburbans” deliberately trying to run us over. Man what a load of crap. I have been riding motorcycles since 1965, both for pleasure and for work when I was a motor officer, and I cannot recall even one instance when someone deliberately targeted me or my bike. None. Not once. Have I had close calls? Certainly. Stupid people abound, and on bikes we are not as visible to them. I have been all over this country and Canada on my motorcycle (a Harley Ultra Classic with stock pipes) and I have yet to see someone deliberately aim for me. I don’t know if that is because I look intimidating (cause I’m not sure I do anymore), and I know they can’t see if I’m carrying a firearm (which I am at all times no matter what Obama would prefer), but it may just be that I am a superior rider who understands psychology. I anticipate what others may do, then I make sure I am not in front of them when they do it. That has helped me stay upright and undamaged countless times over the years. Do loud pipes save lives? I suppose in some circumstances they could, but in others, not so much. The driver who turns left in front of you at an intersection didn’t hear your pipes, and only your observational ability coupled with superior riding skills and planning keeps you from being a statistic. I personally like the throaty sound of a Harley with after-market pipes, but I don’t like the eardrum breaking sound of bikes with straight pipes. But that is my opinion, and you all are welcome to yours. Of course Roy will argue that the legislators continue to pass laws that are more and more restrictive in relation to sound, and he may be right. California will no doubt pass a law someday that makes it illegal to fart in public.
Keep the shiny side up and the rubber side down, ya’ll.

Roy, don’t get me wrong….I am definitely a “ride it like you stole it” kind of guy! lol

While even I doubt that my beloved Night Train could hit “130 mph”, I HAVE seen it, as recently as last week, at 110 mph with some throttle left over….but then, it was on a four lane, clear, smooth, dry, concrete freeway, with absolutely no other vehicles around….I won’t even talk about my “Orange rocket”….

My objection is with people who clearly think that they are better riders…or drivers…than others, and that since THEIR particular vehicle is faster and more maneuverable than the typical “angry, fat SUV”, the “rules of the road”, don’t apply to them….kind of like the lying, incompetent, obama, Eric Holder, Hillary, and the other dishonest liberals presently in power, when it comes to telling the truth, or enforcing the laws fairly, and accepting responsibility for their deadly decisions, i.e. the murders in Benghazi, the murder of the Border Patrol agent in “Fast and Furious”, NO “1200 shovel ready projects” while wasting hundreds of billions of dollars of tax payer dollars, etc….but NEVER admitting responsibility for their mistakes and lies….and now this “red line” fiasco the incompetent obama has created concerning Syria.

Driving in traffic involves much more situational awareness than does just “ripping” out on some clear, lonely stretch of pavement. While speeds are lower, it is a constant “ballet” of moving vehicles, with varying levels of driver/rider abilities…both physical and mental…and requires, especially bikers, to allow for that reality, and “ride accordingly”.

The simple fact that you CAN do something, does not mean that you SHOULD do it…such as not allowing a bigger, slower, “angry, fat SUV” to have the time to “make his move”, and pass a slower vehicle.

Doug obviously disagrees with me….so what else is new! lol…and that is certainly his prerogative, since this is still “MY America”…at least until tyrants like obama, and his supporters like Doug, solidify their death grip on it’s sacred freedoms.

However, while he regales us with his “superior” riding skills, still, HE is the one that seems to be constantly beset with “angry, fat SUVs, gunning for him”, or “Republican soccer moms, trying to run him off the road”….if one can possibly believe him…which is most difficult for any but the most inexperienced, rookie rider.

As far as YOU, Doug…coming from an arrogant, politically and historically ignorant, lying windbag like you, I will take those remarks as a “badge of honor”.

My offer still stands…take one of my statements…about your beloved, anti-American, liberal/socialists, education, etc, and prove it is untrue….but, if you try, keep it short and precise….please don’t attempt to bury everyone else in a long litany of liberal bull shit….that old “community organizer”, (sound familiar?) Saul Alinsky tactic simply won’t work.

LOUD PIPES SAVE LIVES!…some are just too stupid to even admit the possibility! lol

dan …well here in central fl the roads are a race track on week ends .have been for 40 years..as there are long boring parts out in the boonies ,speeds of 130 mph are not uncommon …and some countys still do not do radar … sooooooo ..

Well, Doug…I reviewed your posts again…ALWAYS aiming to be fair…because I’m an American conservative…and that’s just the way we are…and here, again, are my conclusions of your CLAIMED, most recent “adventure” with, what seems to be a real nemesis of yours…the “fat, angry SUV’!

You stated:….

“some angry fat suv suburban was gunning for me, mad that i was a bit more maneuverable and quick than he was. :>/….he was in front of me behind a slowpoke; I HAD PULLED OUT TO PASS MUCH QUICKER THAN HE WAS ABLE TO and when he went to make his move, i was already alongside him….”

Hmmm….I see no mention of a turn signal in this ORIGINAL post, which MIGHT have alerted him that you intended to pass…OR that you waited…AT ALL…to see if he intended to pass the slower vehicle…guess that’s kind of like your dictator-wanna-be, obama’s lying claim about “1200 shovel ready projects ready to go tomorrow!”…only to admit a year later that “there NEVER were any “shovel ready” projects…but that’s okay…he’s a liberal/socialist…he “meant” well.

.However, I DO see your often repeated claim that some ‘angry suv’, who ‘was gunning for me’…. seeming to point out some kind of ridiculous persecution complex you have against all ‘angry suvs’…AND, you repeat, again, how you are ‘a bit more maneuverable and quick than he was’…. indicating, again…. that you harbor some sense that, because ALL motorcycles…including cruisers, which you so often disparage…are more maneuverable and quicker than ALL four wheeled….or more…vehicles, that those delightful characteristics give YOU some “right” to act recklessly, and even dangerously while riding in traffic.

I would remind you…the public roads are NOT the ‘race track’…and a “good” rider, which you claim to be,…makes allowances for the different vehicles, and driver’s abilities or intentions…I mean they are not ALL as “maneuverable and quick”, as YOU, now are they?…and a “good” rider would…or at least SHOULD…realize that maneuvers, such as the one you describe, though easy enough for ANY biker to pull off will, eventually, lead to dangerous results, such as you CLAIM happened to you…again…or even death for the selfish, “get-out-of-the-way, it’s MY road!” motorcyclist….which, more and more, your are appearing to be.

Have you ever seen those “SHARE THE ROAD”, or “LOOK TWICE, SAVE A LIFE…MOTORCYCLES ARE EVERYWHERE!”, signs? They are meant to remind NON MOTORCYCLISTS to be more careful and courteous….I think they apply to ALL of us.

Moving on, Doug, you also stated….

“dan, my statement about the likes of you as indicative of the failure the american education system is no insult, but a simple observation. one that is corroborated by your continued IGNORANT POSTINGS.. like continuously babbling that i am lying when i have not lied once on this forum.LIKE SAYING BARRACK IS A SOCIALIST, WHEN HIS ACTIONS PROVE OTHERWISE. like continuously saying barack is “my messiah”, when i have stated on more than one occasion i am not a fan of his. i have, in fact, made it clear, danno, that if barack *WERE* a socialist, then yes, i *WOULD* be a fan. BUT HE IS NOT.”

Okay, so NOW you are going to blame President Bush for America’s educational system decades long slide into disaster?…I will remind you that President Bush only took office in 2001…the system was in big trouble FAR before that time.

Also, if you knew ANYTHING about the educational system, you would know that liberal democrats fill the overwhelming majority of teacher, principal, supervisor, college instructors and professorships, AND UNION LEADERSHIP positions in this country…in fact, political campaign contributions from NEA and AFT unions are overwhelming given to LIBERAL DEMOCRAT candidates and initiatives at a 95 percent rate….

It’s hard to believe how uninformed you are about such easily discovered material.

obama NOT a socialist?…oh, really….well, how do you explain, spin, cover up…or just plain lie…AGAIN…about THIS little factoid…which was clearly NOT COVERED by the dishonest, lying LIBERAL “main stream” media….

Stanley Kurtz, June, 2007, National Review Online…

“Recently obtained evidence from the updated records of Illinois ACORN at the Wisconsin Historical Society now DEFINITELY establishes that Obama WAS a member of the New Party. He also signed a “contract” promising to publicly support and associate himself with the New Party while in office.

( The New Party was an extreme leftist, socialist leaning political party that had intentions of moving the democrat party much farther left politically.)

Minutes of the meeting on January 11, 1996, of the New Party’s Chicago chapter read as follows:
Barack Obama, candidate for State Senate in the 13th Legislative District, gave a statement to the membership and answered questions. He signed the New Party “Candidate Contract” and requested an endorsement from the New Party. He also joined the New Party.

Consistent with this, a roster of the Chicago chapter of the New Party from early 1997 lists Obama as a member, with January 11, 1996, indicated as the date he joined.

The revelation in 2008 that Obama had joined an ACORN-controlled, leftist third party could have been damaging indeed, and coming clean about his broader work with ACORN might easily have exposed these New Party ties. Because the work of ACORN and the New Party often intersected with Obama’s other alliances, honesty about his ties to either could have laid bare the entire network of his leftist political partnerships.”

And, a story covered by World Net Daly reported…

Many of the New Party’s founding members were “Democratic SOCIALISTS for America” leaders and members of “Committees of Correspondence”, a breakaway of the COMMUNIST Party USA. Obama attended several DSA events and meetings, including a DSA-sponsored town hall meeting Feb. 25, 1996, entitled “Employment and Survival in Urban America.” He sought and received an endorsement from the DSA.”

The point of posting these stories is that, while YOU continue to deny…even as the obama agenda government takes over more and more of this society…there is documented, printed proof of obama’s political past, and the dishonest liberal media has always deliberately refused to cover it, choosing instead, to prostitute themselves for the obama socialist agenda being forced on America…by the liberal/socialist democrat party.

obama is a socialist….you may or may not like it…and you can continue to dishonestly deny it…but it is easily proven to be true.

obama is anti-American…anti-Constitution…anti-capitalism….his policies will NOT work here, and have never worked anywhere else….as is being proven with the economic chaos in Europe.

The rest of your post is just the same weak claims, meant to bury any discussion…I’ve address your dishonest statements already in previous replies, so no more time will be wasted on them…except to say they are basically all only half truths, easily explainable, or just outright lies.

As far as your claim that “loud pipes” would not have made any difference in your near disastrous, rookie-type passing maneuver, I can tell you this…IF “The Night Train” had made that sloppy move the SUV driver would damn sure KNOW that a Harley Freakin’ Davidson was passing him! lol

i have been riding motorcycles since 1968. w/exception of a couple of minor low speed get-off’s, i have been fortunate enough to have never been in a serious accident. because i know how to ride, thanks muchly. i had my turn signals on when i pulled out; no turn signal from the suburban until i saw its front signal – when i was already alongside it – when the fat suburban went to pull out, i was already alongside the hood of his vehicle. he honked at me after i was past him. nothing i did wrong, sorry. i have found, in my years of riding, that it is more dangerous to wait for cagers to make their move than it is to simply get by them. ymmv…

dan, my statement about the likes of you as indicative of the failure the american education system is no insult, but a simple observation. one that is corroborated by your continued ignorant postings. like continuously babbling that i am lying when i have not lied once on this forum. like continuously saying barack is a socialist when his actions prove otherwise. like continuously saying barack is “my messiah”, when i have stated on more than one occasion i am not a fan of his. i have, in fact, made it clear, danno, that if barack *WERE* a socialist, then yes, i *WOULD* be a fan. but he is not.

you can rant on and on about the failures of american society compared to the rest of the industrialized world, but the FACTS speak for themselves. “liberal” educational policy is what has lead to the demise of american school system? lol! gwb’s “no child’s behind left unscathed” – another one of those “DISHONEST, LYING LIBERAL/SOCIALISTS” policies?!? lol! the reason why america does so poorly regarding health care, infrastructure, education, etc., when compared to the rest of the developed world is due to the simple fact that america is the LEAST “socialist” society in the developed world. look at the educational systems of the most successful countries – way more socialist than america’s system. (if the anarchy of america’s educational system can even be called a “system”.)

in america, corporations, hold all the power, not any socialized government. in no other developed nation do the corporate interests hold so much power. in no other developed nation are corporations people, too. in no other developed nation is the social safety net as thin and weak is america’s. how would america get its young willing cannon fodder to do its bidding to feed the war machine that supports the corporate interests? “no good jobs, so i think i will join the military!” corporations run the political system in america, danno; whether the players are “democrat” or “republican” doesn’t make much difference…

keep posting, danno, so your ignorance can be broadcast loud & clear, for everyone to see. much to your chagrin, danno, there are liars of all political stripes. it is not only the ignorant that are the keepers of the truth…

I have to agree with Dan here (gulp).
Dangerous driving error Doug – one performed too often by jacked-up motorcycle riders who think their vastly superior power-to-weight ratio allows them to rise above the limits and rules of the road followed by others.

This sub-set of the motorcycle riding community are second only to the shrill bicycle riders who demand full status as “vehicles” on the road, yet feel entitled to waive the limits and rules that are inconvenient for them – the ones who get indignant and outraged if a “cage” dares to honk at them when they blatantly run a stop sign.

However, the absolute, FATAL flaw in your argument is that you expect these people to use “common sense”…MOST, if not all, of these “Loud Pipes Save Lives-deniers” are liberals, so…it just ain’t gonna happen….

…And speaking of “no brainers”…

Doug asks, “…not sure why dan thinks i would make this up.)…”

….”Well, there you go again!” (with thanks to Ronald Reagan! )…lol

Another “attack” of the “angry,fat, SUV” eh doug?….and you “lived to tell about it”…again!…miraculous! lol

Let me give you some advice… If you’re going to ride in traffic, take off the training wheels, and learn to plan ahead, and “out think” other drivers…another reason to put down that liberal obama crack pipe….it obviously muddles all you liberal’s clear thinking.

What you SAY you did with the “angry, fat SUV” driver, was a real “rookie type” blunder on your part, and…IF it actually happened…(and, let’s face it, you ARE known for telling a lot of real “whoppers!” lol )….you’re lucky you DIDN’T get run off the road….but then, this IS your first season of riding, right? lol

You should have EXPECTED the “angry, fat SUV” to try to pass the slower vehicle…it’s one of the “unwritten” rules of the road that the vehicle IMMEDIATELY behind a slower vehicle has “first shot” at making a passing maneuver. If he doesn’t show ANY indication of passing, THEN the next guy…YOU…SHOULD signal YOUR intention to pass, with at least your turn signal, indicating YOUR intention to “change lanes”…then, verifying no one BEHIND you is already making the same DUMB mistake you did, “make your move, hit it”, and get around him quickly…no problem.

Your failure to ANTICIPATE, VERIFY…and MOTIVATE!, could easily have gotten you killed.

Remember that bit of advice…you’ll live longer….just trying to help…no charge. lol

And another thing…your insulting statement… “dan, folks like you are a perfect illustration of why america is at the bottom of the education ladder of developed nations.”…is as dishonest and totally wrong as all your previous obama agenda supporting statistics, and as your belief in, and support of all things liberal/socialist.

Let me inform you that when “folks like ME” WERE in charge of the education system in America, the kids ranked extremely high in world standings..and, when someone graduated from high school, they actually had an education, could read, write, do math, and, unlike your “Messiah”, knew that America had 50 states…not “57” as YOUR constitutional “professor” ( another lie…he was never a professor) said during his first ILLEGAL presidential campaign…and the kids could actually place them on the map in the correct locations….something a high percentage of COLLEGE FRESHMEN can’t do now under the socialist education agenda….but they damn sure know that “Suzie has Two Mommies”, or who won on “American Idol”…real “important stuff” like that.

So, just WHAT happened to change America’s educational system in the 1960’s?…

LIBERAL/SOCIALISTS got power…through the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization’s “Convention Against Discrimination”, which laid the ground work for control of America’s education system by UN agencies….AND…that same year, “Soviet Education Programs: Foundations, Curriculums, and Teacher Preparation”, was published by the U.S. Department of Health, EDUCATION, and Welfare, and was the “blueprint” of the socialist restructuring of America’s education system, and it closely followed the teachings of a “Dr”. B.F. Skinner, who was basically the liberal/progressive/socialist “mastermind” of the mind control and conditioning processes that the “new” educational system would be using….and still uses today.

Then, there were also the two federal programs, the “Behavioral Science Teacher Education Program”, and the other was the publishing BY THE GOVERNMENT (liberal democrats!) of “Pacesetters in Innovation”, which was a freaking 500 plus page catalog of BEHAVIOR MODIFICATION PROGRAMS to be used by the schools…read that again….BEHAVIOR MODIFICATION PROGRAMS!

There’s a lot more to it, but, when you add in the liberal/socialist agenda driven “Goals 2000 and Outcome Based Education” programs…enthusiastically supported by ANOTHER progressive/socialist heroine of YOURS, the old hippy hag…. Hillary- “Sure four men were murdered in Benghazi due to my incompetence, BUT WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE NOW!”- Clinton….which FURTHER limited the progress of medium to bright students in favor of not hurting the “self esteem” of the “dumber, or lazy” students…you know, obama’s base voters….it’s what has been commonly referred to…appropriately enough….as “the dumbing down of America”, because of the expose book entitled “The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America”, by Charlotte Thomson Iserbyt…it IS and has ALWAYS BEEN planned, supported, and implemented by DISHONEST, LYING LIBERAL/SOCIALISTS….kind of like you…and obama…the Clintons…Ted “The Chapaquiddick Butcher” Kennedy, Harry Reid, Pelosi, Feinstein, Boxer, Schumer, etc, etc, etc….ALL liberal/socialist DEMOCRATS!…and , in fact, NOTHING resembling “folks like ME!

The kids in school today, are taught to think as “global citizens”…hmmm…sounds like the “Kingfish” obama claiming to be a “citizen of the world”, doesn’t it? They’ve been brainwashed in environmentalism and dishonestly threatened by a bevy of socialist scare tactics that….deceitfully…. shape their world view….constantly pushed by charlatans like Al Gore, obama, etc….

America’s schools are failing America’s children, and therefore, America itself…and, under the dishonest liberal/socialist agenda in place today, and run by the dishonest democrat party, are more like indoctrination centers meant to turn out “global citizen-global workers”, i.e.”comrades, than they are the strong, intelligent, INDIVIDUAL that is at the very heart of the American ideal….and USED to be the goal of America’s education system.

So you see, Doug, you’re wrong about something…just like your “messiah”, Barrack “Bo Jangles” obama…every time you open your mouth.

roy, you are mistaken that cagers don’t care about us bikers. they’re *happy* to see us go down. many hate the noise, hate the fact that we are more maneuverable and faster (at least those of us who don’t ride cruisers are).

in spite of what dan says, i *have* had many an irate cager come after me because they were ticked off that i was able to get around someone they couldn’t, etc… (not sure why dan thinks i would make this up.) like just yesterday morning, on my commute, some angry fat suv suburban was gunning for me, mad that i was a bit more maneuverable and quick than he was. :>/ he was in front of me behind a slowpoke; i had pulled out to pass much quicker than he was able to, and when he went to make his move, i was already alongside him. so, when he almost ran me off the road trying to pull out, he started honking at me, and tailgating/swerving, etc… fortunately, there was enough traffic but not too much, so that i was able to use my better maneuverability and quickness to put some distance between me and the enraged asshole. would “loud pipes” have helped? no, my buell s2 w/factory race exhaust is already plenty loud, thank you. ;~)

Christine ..how can you say ”a big quit bike has no balls” .. noise has nothing to do with power ..you can take off all the mufflers on a H.D. and it will not go any faster [ ball’s = more sound you make ] as it’s leaned out it will go slower [ not much but it does] ..yes loud pipes will make you known and might save your life ..funny all these years bikes had noise type mufflers [ hear triumphs. nortons, etc and no one cared … but put a pack of your hot dog no muffler H.D. or track muffler sport bikes racing there motors at a light , then go 45 mph in a pack blocking traffic [h.d.] or wheeling burning rear tires and going 80 mph cutting in and out ..at 13,000 rpm … gets people upset and vote for restricting sound and really do not care if you die or not … and the govt. will put a end to it as $$$ can be had from your tickets ….so does loud mufflers save lives , sure some times does it piss off others sure some times …does anyone care if Christine dies so they get some quiet sure most of the times …really just who are you and me and any other rider to car owners .NOTHING .. our death means NOTHING to them .. they will go on with their day to day lives …pass by and look at you laying on the road broken bent bleeding out and think so that what’s slowing my drive to get my hair done .. well that’s one more loud motorcycle off the road blocking me and making noise all the time …and that’s the way it is and you and everyone else here can argue all they want and it will never change ..

christine, loud pipes do make a difference – for those that are behind you. but, for the most part, those in front of you, and those approaching from the opposite direction, don’t get the “benefit” of the added noise. so, it doesn’t really help much, regarding actual “safety”.