The poorest of the poor have healthare thru medicaid. The well to do can afford private insurance. The middle class simply need a boost in the form of a tax break or some government loophole which will enable them to purchase health insurance cheaper.

It goes beyond that, people need to be able to have more choice when it comes to health care.

For example, it is ILLEGAL for me to purchase insurance in Indiana. I am forced to buy it in my own State. What sense does that make? If insurance was able to compete nationwide you'd see a dramatic drop in prices (competition does that).

Also, when you buy insurance you have to be covered for everything. You can't customize your coverage, my 52 year old mother has to be covered for child birth expenses, what the hell for? If you could buy custom plans, you'd be able to drop all the unnecessary shit and make it that much more affordable. I'm a 27 year old male, I'm probably not going to suffer from cardiovascular disease anytime soon, but yet I have to be covered for it. Why can't I just buy a cheap "disaster" insurance that'll cover me if I injure myself (much more likely).

Think of it in terms of car insurance, you don't use your car insurance when you change your oil do you? No, that would make it retarded expensive, but that's what we do with our medical insurance. If we had to pay for our own maintenance care out of pocket we'd shop around and be much more aware of the cost of our care. Since we don't have to worry about it because insurance covers it, costs are out of control.

Another thing is taxes, businesses can claim their health insurance as a tax credit, individuals can't, why the hell not?

We can make simple common sense changes here and save a lot of time and money. The answer is giving people more choices in their medical care, not less.

Borderline communism Chimps, he want you and to depend on the Government for everything, he want to dictate where and who my money goes to, he wants to tell me and you what health care system to use and so and so on. I understand the difference but its not much.

Borderline communism Chimps, he want you and to depend on the Government for everything, he want to dictate where and who my money goes to, he wants to tell me and you what health care system to use and so and so on. I understand the difference but its not much.

Meanwhile 50 million people in the U.S doesn't have health insurance. A great solution indeed Mr. Republican!

But really, what is the alternative? Sure you can keep on going with insurance base healthcare and ignore millions of people that can't afford it. But that causes suffering as well.

This medicaid thing is new to me. Are they able to give every poor being healthcare and to what extent? Who pays their bills?

Nobody is being ignored here, period.

Everyone that is poor is covered for everything, including dental, vision, emergency care, medication, everything. You have a 3 dollar co-pay, that's it. Trust me I know, I'm a college student and my family and I are on it. If I had an affordable alternative I wouldn't be on it because the paperwork involved is a nightmare, but the system is set up so that is almost impossible for me to do.

The only problem is that it's astronomically expensive, and the bureaucracy involved is time consuming. Doctors now spend more time doing paperwork than actually treating people. Doctors are also having a hard time getting the government to compensate them properly, so many health care providers are dropping medicaid altogether, it just isn't worth the trouble.

All Universal Health Care will do is make Medicaid 20 times bigger and that much more inefficient.

Borderline communism Chimps, he want you and to depend on the Government for everything, he want to dictate where and who my money goes to, he wants to tell me and you what health care system to use and so and so on. I understand the difference but its not much.

Capitalism --> Socialism --> Communism

There is/are a significant difference(s), both in theory and practice.

that's what i like about germany...everything works great here..ok the taxes are high but therefore everything is done the right way...

What would you say is the total tax burden percentage on an upper middle class household in Germany?

Does it exceed the 33% federal income tax I pay - plus crazy property and school tax, 7% state sales tax on everything I buy, gas tax, tax on all utilities, etc? I even have a 1% income tax for the town I live in for chrissakes.

I'm guessing I pay 40% of my yearly income right now easy.....anyone who wants to raise it or close loopholes for my LLC isn't getting my vote. This is it for me and I'll fib or fire employees if it goes higher.

IMO many of these health plans should be run at the state level to even have a chance.

The USA is too big and diverse in population density and culture to have a single plan for all states.

Well, for one thing, communism has a overwhelming tendency to break apart. It is a nice idea with communism but I just don't think humans are made for it.

Yeah it does that. I don't think it's a nice idea at all. Everybody being a worker ant, having no rights as an individual at all and being completely controlled by an unelected government. Terrible idea.

LOL. The books detailing these differences are door stoppers and you want a quickie answer!?

/use your google-fu, my friend

I know the differences, I just want to know what you think, that's all. Your "door stopper" argument doesn't fly, it's like Einstein said: "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough".

People here keep saying how different Socialism is from Communism, but never explain how.

Personally I think it's just a matter of degrees. Socialism is Communism-lite as far as I'm concerned.

I know the differences, I just want to know what you think, that's all.

People keep saying how different Socialism is from Communism, but never explain how.

Personally I think it's just a matter of degrees. Socialism is Communism-lite as far as I'm concerned.

Socialism is 'basically' a transitional state between Capitalism and Communism - to some the Utopia, a classless, stateless society. Me I'd rather live in a Capitalistic state for all it's contradictions and inherent problems.

I know it's not free, nothing is free that's why I put "free" in quotations, but that was totally lost on you. Good job of being a jackass btw.

So your saying that Holland is moving away from a Universal Health Care system and moving towards a free market system. Wow, thanks for making my point for me.

Show me this proof, how have they proved the opposite? How do you measure success. It damn sure hope it isn't measured by cancer survival rates. Oh, and life expectancy isn't a measure of a healthcare system because it involves many factors that have nothing to do with healthcare.

What are the major differences between a communist system and a socialist system? Do you even know?

Holland is not on a 'free' market system. There are very strict rules to the selling of health insurance. Everyone can afford it and is required by law to have it. No one will ever be denied healthcare because of it and the changes you will ever be in debt because of medical reasons are very, very slim.

Holland is not on a 'free' market system. There are very strict rules to the selling of health insurance. Everyone can afford it and is required by law to have it. No one will ever be denied healthcare because of it and the changes you will ever be in debt because of medical reasons are very, very slim.

Do you understand the concept of an illegal immigrant? It has to stop somewhere don't you think? The point is every registered person in Holland is insured. Even those on wellfare.

Do you want to compare the number of homeless people in the US and in Holland?

I live in America buddy, more specifically in the South, I am all to aware of the concept of illegal immigration. But here's the thing, America treats it's illegal immigrants, they never turn them down. It's a problem here because the illegals are using the ER's as doctors offices and they never pay their bills. The rest of us pick up that tab.

Your health care utopia in Holland denies care to illegals. So don't lecture us on how wonderful the Dutch system is.

What would comparing the number of homeless people in the US and Holland have to do with health care? Why not compare something relevant to health care like: cancer survival rates! Yeah, see one of my previous posts about that one.

I live in America buddy, more specifically in the South, I am all to aware of the concept of illegal immigration. But here's the thing, America treats it's illegal immigrants, they never turn them down. It's a problem here because the illegals are using the ER's as doctors offices and they never pay their bills. The rest of us pick up that tab.

Your health care utopia in Holland denies care to illegals. So don't lecture us on how wonderful the Dutch system is.

What would comparing the number of homeless people in the US and Holland have to do with health care? Why not compare something relevant to health care like: cancer survival rates! Yeah, see one of my previous posts about that one.

The article states some hospitals are denying care to illegal immigrants, not all. You won't take my word for it but these are isolated incidents. And in the article they are even talking about setting up a fund for these people. Leaving literally everybody between our borders, even the people who are not supposed to be here, 'insured' of healthcare.

If everyone gets treated in your country already then why is healthcare such a big issue? Why do I keep hearing about people in your country with these huge medical bills? This is where the Dutch system is superior because every registered person is insured.

I know the differences, I just want to know what you think, that's all. Your "door stopper" argument doesn't fly, it's like Einstein said: "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough".

People here keep saying how different Socialism is from Communism, but never explain how.

Personally I think it's just a matter of degrees. Socialism is Communism-lite as far as I'm concerned.

There's a lot of plausible-sounding bullshit being regurgitated as reasoned and informed opinion in this thread...

Some simple FACTS:

America currently ranks 37th for healthcare in the world, it is far from the best healthcare system around.

Infant mortality in the US is comparable to that of non-industrial Third World country.

HMOs are run for PROFIT... that profit costs lives: denial of coverage; denial of service; denial of drugs.

Not for profit government departments are NOT inefficient, they are in fact far more efficient cost-wise than the private sector has ever been... the inefficiencies seen in these fields are caused by chronic underfunding, which in part is promoted by private-sector lobbyists eager to benefit from the privatization of these same sectors.

Statistics for cancer survival rates pushed by small-government Republicans and HMOs (Giuliani just made up the figures he quoted in the Republican debates for example) are patently FALSE!

US cancer survival studies do NOT include:-the 1% of Americans that are homeless-the 2-3% of Americans that are illegal immigrants-the 50 million (16%) of Americans who are not insured-the huge disparity in life expectancy between whites and minorities (black males don't get cancer as often as they only live to be 58 or so on average)-the insured who are denied coverage as a profiteering strategy by HMOs

...and the most important FACT of all:Americans currently pay considerably more per capita (nearly twice) for their 37th best healthcare system in the world than the French pay for their best healthcare system in the world.

Socialised/universal American government funded healthcare WOULD mean a tax increase... but that increase would be something on the order of 20% of what the insured are currently paying in premiums... and for that tax-increase/cost-decrease Americans would get:-truly universal healthcare-a first world healthcare system-treatment for the homeless (mentally-ill homeless cause crime)-treatment for poor drug addicts (less crime)-treatment for immigrants (again, less crime)-considerably less bankruptcy among the middle class-considerably less divorce/domestic violence/child physical abuse etc as all these things are fueled by monetary pressures such as medical bills

Arguing AGAINST socialised healthcare is just plain ignorant and stooopid.

There's a lot of plausible-sounding bullshit being regurgitated as reasoned and informed opinion in this thread...

Some simple FACTS:

America currently ranks 37th for healthcare in the world, it is far from the best healthcare system around.

Infant mortality in the US is comparable to that of non-industrial Third World country.

HMOs are run for PROFIT... that profit costs lives: denial of coverage; denial of service; denial of drugs.

Not for profit government departments are NOT inefficient, they are in fact far more efficient cost-wise than the private sector has ever been... the inefficiencies seen in these fields are caused by chronic underfunding, which in part is promoted by private-sector lobbyists eager to benefit from the privatization of these same sectors.

Statistics for cancer survival rates pushed by small-government Republicans and HMOs (Giuliani just made up the figures he quoted in the Republican debates for example) are patently FALSE!

US cancer survival studies do NOT include:-the 1% of Americans that are homeless-the 2-3% of Americans that are illegal immigrants-the 50 million (16%) of Americans who are not insured-the huge disparity in life expectancy between whites and minorities (black males don't get cancer as often as they only live to be 58 or so on average)-the insured who are denied coverage as a profiteering strategy by HMOs

...and the most important FACT of all:Americans currently pay considerably more per capita (nearly twice) for their 37th best healthcare system in the world than the French pay for their best healthcare system in the world.

Socialised/universal American government funded healthcare WOULD mean a tax increase... but that increase would be something on the order of 20% of what the insured are currently paying in premiums... and for that tax-increase/cost-decrease Americans would get:-truly universal healthcare-a first world healthcare system-treatment for the homeless (mentally-ill homeless cause crime)-treatment for poor drug addicts (less crime)-treatment for immigrants (again, less crime)-considerably less bankruptcy among the middle class-considerably less divorce/domestic violence/child physical abuse etc as all these things are fueled by monetary pressures such as medical bills

Arguing AGAINST socialised healthcare is just plain ignorant and stooopid.

The Luke

This is the pwnage-hammer right here. I would like to see any republican confront these arguments. Especially the one that says you pay more for a bad healthcare than France does for a top-notch one. Your "I want to keep my money!!" argument just flew right out the window.

I'm ready for the Roach to ignore everything that's written and state that Luke's numbers are made up bullshit written by liberal nuts. Furthermore, he will claim that he has proof to refute these numbers. And further pressing by the critical thinkers in this forum for follow-up on his promise to provide proof will get ignored.

There's a lot of plausible-sounding bullshit being regurgitated as reasoned and informed opinion in this thread...

Some simple FACTS:

America currently ranks 37th for healthcare in the world, it is far from the best healthcare system around.

Infant mortality in the US is comparable to that of non-industrial Third World country.

HMOs are run for PROFIT... that profit costs lives: denial of coverage; denial of service; denial of drugs.

Not for profit government departments are NOT inefficient, they are in fact far more efficient cost-wise than the private sector has ever been... the inefficiencies seen in these fields are caused by chronic underfunding, which in part is promoted by private-sector lobbyists eager to benefit from the privatization of these same sectors.

Statistics for cancer survival rates pushed by small-government Republicans and HMOs (Giuliani just made up the figures he quoted in the Republican debates for example) are patently FALSE!

US cancer survival studies do NOT include:-the 1% of Americans that are homeless-the 2-3% of Americans that are illegal immigrants-the 50 million (16%) of Americans who are not insured-the huge disparity in life expectancy between whites and minorities (black males don't get cancer as often as they only live to be 58 or so on average)-the insured who are denied coverage as a profiteering strategy by HMOs

...and the most important FACT of all:Americans currently pay considerably more per capita (nearly twice) for their 37th best healthcare system in the world than the French pay for their best healthcare system in the world.

Socialised/universal American government funded healthcare WOULD mean a tax increase... but that increase would be something on the order of 20% of what the insured are currently paying in premiums... and for that tax-increase/cost-decrease Americans would get:-truly universal healthcare-a first world healthcare system-treatment for the homeless (mentally-ill homeless cause crime)-treatment for poor drug addicts (less crime)-treatment for immigrants (again, less crime)-considerably less bankruptcy among the middle class-considerably less divorce/domestic violence/child physical abuse etc as all these things are fueled by monetary pressures such as medical bills

Arguing AGAINST socialised healthcare is just plain ignorant and stooopid.

My country Australia has some of the lowest taxes in the developed world and we have a great healthcare system.

My cousin had a severe wrist injurie resulting severd tendons and arteries the poor bastard had have all his tendon micro surgery to rejoin them, he was airlifted by helicopter and many return visits to his surgeon.Moneytry costs zero.Had he been in the states with no insurance i hate to think.

Lol. Lies, lies, lies KM! I registered a Pty Ltd so I'd have to pay only 30%. Upper level wages and individual earnings are taxed at nearly 50%. Anyone from another country agree that's low?

Also, Aus is moving more and more toward privatization. When I got here in '99, almost no one had private coverage. Now, almost everyone has it.

However, the US needs to pull it's finger out when it comes to health care. A government which allows a large portion of its people to die unnecessarily because they're poor is basically an aristocracy. It's fucking medieval. It's certainly not what the founding fathers had in mind when they said "for the people."

Some of these "patriots" of capitalism love their wallet more than their countrymen. That's fine, just have the sack to admit it.

Borderline communism Chimps, he want you and to depend on the Government for everything, he want to dictate where and who my money goes to, he wants to tell me and you what health care system to use and so and so on. I understand the difference but its not much.

The government already does that Coach... They tell you to give them their money and then they send it to Iraq.

You're already in a Socialist state... That's what the bailouts of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac prove.

Your taxes are already going to Social Programs Coach... The biggest one going right now is this place called Iraq.

Your current leaders don't even keep the money at home where it can benefit our economy... They send it across to a fucking desert.