On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 1:23 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> Taxation and Dina Demalchusa
> Rabbi Hershel Schachter
> It is important to note that today the basis for taxation is totally
> different from what it was in Talmudic times. Today, all modern countries
> provide a variety of services:
> And even if much of the tax money
> goes towards expenditures that are not to one's personal liking and
> that one gets nothing out of, such is the halacha of any partnership:
> the majority of the partners have the right to determine what are the
> reasonable needs of the partnership (Choshen Mishpat 163:1). Therefore,
> this majority has the legitimate right to force the minority to contribute
> their share towards properly furthering the partnership.
>
This all sounds nice on paper, but my real question was, what happens
when democratic government becomes a 'tyranny of the majority'? Are
there any circumstances where we can recognize a government as
corrupt, or as usurping its powers, and our obligation to pay taxes no
longer applies?

...in most cases the issue in not applicable, because when appointed the
KG can stay married to his current wife.
ie only in the relatively rare case of a widowed KG would the mitzvah have
relevance.
in any case, I always understood the mitzvah to be a gzeiras hakasuv
(and certainly there is no question that the din applies today even
if societal norms have chged)
mordechai cohen

RMYG wrote:
> But what if we know, for certain, that this particular minor will not be harmed, and she also wants to marry him?
Two things:
First, I think a basic assumption is that a 12-year old isn't able to make
the qualifed decision. Now this is a fascinating question in itself:
without doubt, intellectual and emotional maturity at a given age can be
very different at least individually, but already when it's about societies
or sub-societies, the issue is more difficult. Are American goyishe
teenagers today less mature than their age peers were in 1850 in English
coal mines or the Russian army, or today in Asian sweatshops and rice
fields and African war zones? Or are all the latter groups just as
unmature, just forced to live adult lives?
The state of the art seems to say there's no basic difference, otherwise
what would be wrong with children working and fighting like adults? (On top
of trying to avoid hard labour and wars in general, that is.)
The second aspect, harm or not: as far as I know, current psychology
assumes that, bar exceptions, sexual relations with a 12-year old are
harmful. I don't know enough about the matter to have an opinion, other
than that intercourse between a 12-year old and a 40-50-year old isn't a
comforting concept. I'm aware that this is probably a result of growing up
in "Western society". I suppose sexual relations without a stable emotional
background aren't healthy at any age, adn this kind of background is less
there, statistically, among 12-year olds.
The basic question is: is a girl around bas-mitzve age an adult in respects
like these? If so, we have a serious clash with today's society, where
maturity and adulthood are gauged at 18-21. And this is what most of us
"feel" to make sense. (As an aside, physical maturity was probably even
later in the time of the gemore, up to four or five years later.)
Lipman Phillip Minden
--
http://lipmans.blogspot.com

On Tue, 1 Jul 2008 14:29:08 -0400
Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:
> DDD applies to the law as practiced, not as codified. And while there
Source? I've seen this claim, but I know of no authoritative source for
it.
> -Micha
Yitzhak
--
IIUC it flows from a philosophical issue of what din means. For example
if one takes the approach that DMD flows from the divine right of kings
to rule as they see fit (the torah seems to assume this exists), what
exactly is their rule - what is on the books or what they choose to
enforce. If there were a poll tax that the king never collected, would
you have to pay at the poll even though there was no one to collect it?
Look at the flip side, what if a king were known to take $100 per head
from each resident of a flood plain without ever codifying the rule,
would you say he was a gazlan for taking the money and the town people
could not pay it when the officers showed up?
KT
Joel Rich
THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE
ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination,
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is
strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us
immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message.
Thank you.

In preparing a comprehensive lecture on gematria, I discovered the
following and will share it with you.
The four letter word for God equals 26. That is common knowledge and
has been utilized often.
However, less known is Elokim which equals 86. We are created b'tzelem
Elokim which is like God.
Every day we say in our tefillos "Mi Chomocho...." Who is like You
among the mighty....
The answer is: WE are Komocho (kof, mem, vov, kof) "like You."
Komocho equals 86 (God).
WE are like God. (Or at least should be).
KT
ri
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20080702/3535d9e5/attachment-0001.htm>

R' Harry Maryles (welcome back to Avodah!) wrote:
> Religion deals in absolutes. Those absolutes are based on
> belief. Belief is based on many factors having to do with
> observation, tradition, inductive reasoning, and intuition.
I feel these "absolutes" to be much less absolute than how RHM percieves
them. It seems to me that anything based on observation might be flawed
because of an incomplete observation. Anything based on reasoning might be
flawed because of faulty reasoning. Anything based on intuition might be
flawed because it is quite possibly mere guesswork. (There are many untrue
religions founded by sincere people based on faulty reasoning, inaccurate
observation, and emotional intuition.)
Of the four factors mentioned, that leaves "tradition". I'd say that
anything based on a clear *Revelation* is the only absolute in this
discussion, and even there, it is reliable only to the extent that one can
trust himself to have understood the Revelation correctly. (I am blessed to
be part of the only religion based on Revelation; see Va'eschanan 4:32-39.)
> Belief it can be argued is much stronger than science.
> Belief can neither be proven or disproven and is therefore
> not so easily refuted.
But the exact same logic can be used to argue that belief is much *weaker*
than science. Belief can neither be proven or disproven and is therefore
not so easily demonstrated.
Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
Beauty Product Reviews
Read Unbiased Beauty Product Reviews and Join Our Product Review Team!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc
/JKFkuJi7UvsKrgKZrhpDAMFaeDTV2VIudvrE1471ouwXGjBAjZNQlM/

>
> Yes, I know that Yakov did love Leah too, but relatively, she felt
unloved.
> Rochel was always his true zivug and his true wife, which he
> mentioned even on his deathbed, so many years after Rochel's death.
> --Toby Katz
I never really thought about this before, but if it is our understanding
that each man only had one "zivug rishon", polygamy implies some women
will end up in this Leah role; "destined" to be second fiddle? And when
the gemara says that before birth the bat kol says bat ploni lploni,
does that include those who are destined not to be a "true zivug"?
KT
Joel Rich
THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE
ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination,
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is
strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us
immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message.
Thank you.

> RMYG wrote:
> > But what if we know, for certain, that this particular minor will not be
> harmed, and she also wants to marry him?
R' Lipman Phillip Minden:
> Two things:
>
> First, I think a basic assumption is that a 12-year old isn't able to make
the
> qualifed decision. <SNIP>
There are two questions here - does she want it, and is it harmful for her.
I think she can make the first, but her parents need to make the second.
> The second aspect, harm or not: as far as I know, current psychology
assumes
> that, bar exceptions, sexual relations with a 12-year old are harmful. I
don't
> know enough about the matter to have an opinion, other than that
intercourse
> between a 12-year old and a 40-50-year old isn't a comforting concept. I'm
> aware that this is probably a result of growing up in "Western society". I
> suppose sexual relations without a stable emotional background aren't
healthy
> at any age, adn this kind of background is less there, statistically,
among
> 12-year olds.
I understand what you're saying, but I have two points in response. 1) IIUC,
Halachah doesn't mandate that the marriage be consummated when she is a
Naarah. 2) Most cases of 12-year-old girls having sexual relationships,
today, involve incest, molestation, rape and abuse. Current psychology
assumes - for very good reason - that these relationships are harmful. But
have psychologists studied situations where the husband of the 12-year old
was loving, gentle, solicitous and caring? I'm not saying that it is
definitely not harmful (although I suspect that to be the case), but I'm
saying that we certainly shouldn't assume that it is harmful.
<SNIP>
> (As an aside, physical maturity was probably even later in the
> time of the gemore, up to four or five years later.)
What do you mean here?
KT,
MYG

Just to back up a bit, is the age of majority prescribed in halacha
d'oraysa or d'rabbanan? Logically it should be d'oraysa, since that's
the age when hiyuvim d'oraysa begin. OTOH I know of no Biblical source
prescribing either age or physical characteristics for onset of majority.
David Riceman

RnTK writes that someone who finds meat distasteful need not alter his
tastes. Rav Kook zt"l wrote another multi-part article in Hapeles in 1902
about vegetarianism - that nowadays the allowance to eat meat is a necessary
"evil", because otherwise people who would have an urge to consume meat
would kill animals - and people would not differentiate between man and
animals in regard to killing them. In this morally inferior climate, where
one may ex post facto eat meat, one should certainly channel this allowance
and desire toward Korbanos. But in the future there will be no Korbanos
except grain - based on Vayikra Rabbah, when the world is at its morally
refined peak.
So I don't think it is at all necessary to alter one's anti-carnivorous
tastes if this is really what the Torah considers ideal, according to Rav
Kook. It would also actually make sense that as redemption grows nearer such
feelings would become more widespread, based on the thesis in *The Moon's
Lost Light* by Devora Heshelis.
On the issue of the Kohen Gadol and a Naarah itself - is it so that nowadays
the girl's Besulim is not the same at age 17 as at 12 1/2 - and if it is,
perhaps there will be an acceptance that Nishtanu HaTevaim will allow the KG
to marry an older girl (assuming that the rationale and Derasha is the
derivative source for the Halachah). It is also not so farfetched that the
Kohen Gadol who would be selected nowadays would be a dashing young Kohen -
there were some KGs who served 80 years, so they were probably not elderly
when they began their careers.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20080702/a8d492dc/attachment-0001.htm>

Of the four factors mentioned, that leaves "tradition". I'd say that
anything based on a clear *Revelation* is the only absolute in this
discussion, and even there, it is reliable only to the extent that one
can trust himself to have understood the Revelation correctly.
=======================
Perhaps for the recipient, what about their descendants?
KT
Joel Rich
THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE
ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination,
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is
strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us
immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message.
Thank you.

Doron Beckerman wrote:
> Rav Kook zt"l wrote another multi-part article in Hapeles in
> 1902 about vegetarianism - that [...] in the
> future there will be no Korbanos except grain - based on Vayikra Rabbah,
> when the world is at its morally refined peak.
I don't believe you. This is outright kefirah.
--
Zev Sero Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name interpretation of the Constitution.
- Clarence Thomas

On Wed, Jul 02, 2008 at 02:56:09PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
: Doron Beckerman wrote:
:>Rav Kook zt"l wrote another multi-part article in Hapeles in
:>1902 about vegetarianism - that [...] in the
:>future there will be no Korbanos except grain - based on Vayikra Rabbah,
:>when the world is at its morally refined peak.
: I don't believe you. This is outright kefirah.
More than Mishlei Rabba 9, which deduces from Esther 9:28 that all the
other yamim tovim but Purim will cease?
I don't understand either, but at least RAYK has a precedent.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

In a message dated 7/2/2008, beck072@gmail.com writes:
>>But in the future there will be no Korbanos except grain - based on
Vayikra Rabbah, when the world is at its morally refined peak. <<
>>>>>
The Korban Pesach will be grain? Matza? In one way that's a relief,
because I don't care for lamb. But Korech will be strange. Here we know that when
the BHM'K stood, Hillel ate matza wrapped around a piece of lamb, with some
greens. In the future BHM'K we will eat matza wrapped around some more
matza?
--Toby Katz
=============
President Reagan talked with the Soviets while pushing ahead with the
deployment of Cruise and Pershing missiles in Europe. He spoke softly ? after
getting himself a bigger stick. --Mark Steyn
**************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for
fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-ai
shdas.org/attachments/20080702/7205565b/attachment.htm>
------------------------------
Avodah mailing list
Avodah@lists.aishdas.orghttp://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
End of Avodah Digest, Vol 25, Issue 237
***************************************
Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
avodah@lists.aishdas.org
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org
You can reach the person managing the list at
avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."