The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the night of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is R'hllor when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

because why would you neg someone for their opinion...but really? If you read the books (and I judge by your post that you obviously have) how could you say that Shae is being portrayed too sympathetically? To this point in the books she has been nothing but an angel and is shown to be in love with Tyrion despite how unbelievable it might seem.

As for Cersei...you think she is being portrayed sympatetically? My wife hasn't read the books and she finds her almost as repulsive as Joffrey. Other than her astounding good looks (which is consistent with the books) there hasn't been shown a single redeeming quality to Cersei Lannister aside perhaps for her love for her children.

Either you and I have very different ideas as to what sympathy means or we are completely different in the ways in which we judge character.

Cersei has been just as big of an asshole in the TV show as she was in the books. To be frank, she is actually portrayed far more sympathetically in the books as basically having had to deal with a lot bullshit that has made her into the bitch that she is, almost solely based on the fact that she is a woman.

The books give you a greater insight into her character as to why she is so heartless and cruel, because she is trying to almost make up for her "womanhood" by acting like an iron lady.

We get brief glimpses of that in the show, usually when she's drinking with Tyrion, but it's nothing compared to the books.

I mean the books basically go into her whole relationship with Robert Baratheon, and how she was so excited to be wed to him, she was actually A LOT, A LOT, A LOT, like Sansa in her doe-eyed idealism. Then she had a miscarriage of Robert's first child. Rather than comforting her, her blamed her, becoming cold and distant. He started drinking too much, fucking whores every night in their bed while Cersei listened outside, and then at the end of the night, he would rape her.

Some of that stuff has been mentioned in the show, but not to the extent that it is in the books. Cersei is most certainly one of the more sympathetic characters in the book.

Books 4 and 5 are split between characters, so half the characters perspectives are in one book and the other half are in the other book. I think that the problem that a lot of people had with book 4 is that almost everything that almost everything that happens in book 4 is in Kingslanding and book 5 takes most everything else. Since everything else seems to be where the action happens, book 4 seems pretty uneventful.

I don't think that anyone thinks that they are going to be able to do a season for book 4 only followed by a season of book 5 only. Not only does that make people forget about characters, but the actors are put out of a job for a year but still locked into a contract the following year which limits their options for work.

It's obvious at this point that parts of books 4 and 5 are going to be worked into next season because certain characters are at the end of their storylines in book 3, e.g. Bran has no more content in book 3. So, unless they make up some stuff for him to fill until the book 5 content, they'll be working off book 5 content for him next season.

I'm personally fine with this because the books are all pretty much uneventful build up for the first half. If they can get the buildup to events out of the way for certain storylines while season 4 gets through some really good parts of book 3, then next season, they'll be able to start with some really good stuff for the characters they went ahead on while they build up events for the other characters.

But how was book 4 asnd 5 as a reading experience? I think something with a shorter turnaround, like tv episodes, or even a montly comic book, that could be really interesting look at viewpoints. But waiting for a book and then everything that happened in it has already happened and you know what's going on, you're just getting a different angle on it, sounds very disappointing to me.

I found books 4 and 5 significantly less successful/more frustrating than their predecessors. Without going into the content, I think there were three interrelated problems. 1. The introduction of new characters, locations and storylines that appear important to the overall story but which Martin spent far too much space on, giving the books a 'why do I care about this' quality. 2. The over elaboration of rather simple storylines, ie, journeys that could have covered 15 pages were expanded to cover 100+. 3. Making these choices required him to essentially "park" several characters that are quite significant in the first three books into stories that go nowhere.

This seems a problem of a lack of editing. Martin's publisher seems unwilling to ask him to consider the consequences to his larger narrative of overpopulating his world with peripheral perspectives. I'm sure there are financial reasons for this. Given the current state of publishing, there has to be an inclination not to turn down an extra book, but the literary cost was that as a reader, I became frustrated with the diffusion of the stories that Martin chose to tell. It also leads me to be skeptical that he'll actually be able to complete the story in two further books, given the profusion of stories and perspectives he's now introduced.

I'm actually hopeful that the constraints of the HBO series -- 10 1-hour episodes -- will lead the showrunners to mitigate the flaws of the books. I'm sure lots of fans will object, but as storytelling, I frequently find the show to work better than the books.

It's not really a different viewpoint on the same events. Keep in mind that, so far, Dany has pretty much literally been on her own island from the rest of the characters. Anything happening north of the wall is separate from everything south of the wall. You'll get brief cross-overs between those like Barristan Selmy jumping from Kingslanding to Astapor to be with Dany. Other than that, though, everything is pretty segregated, and breaking them into books isn't really that big of a deal on its own. Keep in mind that the 4th book came 5 years after the 3rd and the 5th came 6 years after the 4th, so waiting 5 years to get the less interesting storylines and 11 years total to continue the more interesting storylines was really the crux of the matter.

To put it into perspective, on reddit, the other day, someone took books 4 and 5 and came up with a new suggested reading order of the chapters in which he broke the books down into 5 or 6 "books" that followed different storylines. Each could pretty much be read independently aside from some small allusions to other storylines. This seemed to be a pretty common thing and people started listing their own breakdowns, so the book is really more like the current Marvel comic book movies where each character gets their own storyline, but then they come together to handle one big event, if that makes sense.

IIRC, GRRM orignally wanted it all to be one monsterous book, but he was basically forced to split it into two separate ones when he "discovered" just how long it would be.

So naturally, it made the pacing of the books extremely slow, because all 546786576 POV characters were basically reacting to one single event and then progressing toward a certain goal.

To be honest, I think book 4 (A Feast For Crows) was probably the most difficult to slog through. It wasn't bad and it definitely flipped the script on quite a few characters, so there was a tremendous amount of character development, but as far as action and things happening, it was pretty sparse.

A Dance With Dragons was better on that front IMO, but you can tell that those two books were necessary to set up the major payoffs in book 6. Book 6 is going to be epic.

More than anything else it was just weird reading through an entire book devoid of half the main characters.

Hell I liked it. I have been assuming everything is essentially building to Denaerys vs. White Walkers eventually and the battle of the five kings will take a back seat. I really just want someone to kill Joffrey already, he is such a prick!

The wait is terrible. Up until the end of season two I hadn't read any of the books, but the wait for season three was so excruciating that I started reading them.

I began with the intent of simply catching up to where season three would begin and then follow along in the books as the season progressed. Now seriously, I am ashamed to admit that I am a guy who has never been big on reading novels. As a kid I had too many sports to play than to bother with reading and as an adult in university my studies in med school more than fulfilled my desire for reading. I can honestly (and shamefully say) that I have read maybe 15 novels in my entire life and most were no more than 400 pages.

Needless to say when I purchased the books I wondered how I would be able to get through the first two in time for season three to begin, but once I started reading I couldn't stop. I had finished the first four before season three began and have since finished the fifth book. I have never been so captivated by a story in my life and can't abide the notion that I will have to go almost an entire year for my next fix of game of thrones....I guess it's back to book one and start watching the season over again on my PVR. Dude, get the next book finished already!!!

I am a little concerned this site has become subject to random dumb ass trolls... people talkign about hardons for recruites, or logging into OT threads to bitch about them being OT, and a general decline in respect.

Its sad. Sure it is inevitable as the sites popularity grows new people come, old people who have been here longer become arrogant, and generally becomes difficult to manage...

I would like to see the mods lock posters who intentionally troll these boards... I had my time off in bolivia and it gave me some perspective.... perspective I had to share...

I'm really disappointed with that episode. Cut out all of the bullshit talking scenes that don't progress the story. Put in the interesting things that happen next for several characters and you have a much better episode.

Well, they intentionally split book 3 into 2 seasons so they need to save some of that stuff for next season. Clearly they are building to it and season 4 should be pretty good with everything that happens.

I know, but a certain character has one chapter left in the book. Bran is done until book 5. They are going to have to draw content from those books anyway. Another character that doesn't have their own chapters until book 4 is going to be neither seen nor heard in season 4 unless they start pulling up content and you need the epilogue from this book to tie into that. I just kind of wish they had pushed those along like they did with Bran so that next season actually starts with all of that content they are going to have to pull down. Now, I just assume that they are going to put a lot of it in the season premiere, but who knows.

Just waiting for someone to put a knife in Joffrey's back already, but even a death like that is too good for that little shit. But damn that kid's a great actor, as I'm not sure that I've ever hated an individual character more than his. And fuck, poor little Theon.

Overall, great episode, acting continues to just amaze me. Not sitting too well with the fact that we've got to wait a year for the next season.

Yes. Boardwalk Empire might be the best show on tv. I don't think it gets the respect it deserves. Overall, I think tv shows are becoming more interesting/ better made/ better actors etc. then movies have been lately.

That the directors are worried that some idiot will see him and not be able to separate the character from the actor and try to beat the crap out of him. I thought that was amusing - he is playing Joffrey so well. I know how he dies, I won't give it away, but it should be very interesting. He is one of my favorite actors in this show, second to Peter Dinklage.

I have started reading them again (slowly) and hope that by the time I finish book 6 will be released...it is also helping to refresh my memory as I find myself saying "I don't remember that being in the book" and it turns out it was!

You and my brother would get along great. He's taken to referring to Theon as "Theon Fishfucker." I think he likes both Joffrey and Walder Frey better, which is a bold statement considering the desired fate he's dreamed up for Walder Frey. He's finished the third book and will start on the fourth as soon as I get around to lending it to him and his greatest disappointment is not knowing what's happened to Theon.

I can't think of any character in movie or television that I have hated more than Joffrey and that is saying something, because I have watched a ton of both in my time. For a kid of his age, he has shown some amazing talent as he has envoked such anger with the character he portrays. I have to stop every now and then and remind myself that he's an actor and playing a part because my feelings of distan for him are so intense I want to throw something at the tv every time he comes on.

Also, I I agree with the on to boarwalk empire. I really enjoy that show as well, though for me it pales in comparison to GoT.

The Hound is excellent. Perfect example of an antihero IMO. He started being one of my favorite characters when it started becoming clear how much he liked Sansa. Even though I don't even actually like Sansa very much.

I affinity for the hound has grown dramatically since he first entered the story back in season one. It started with Little Finger telling Sansa the story of how he came to be scarred that started to turn my opinion of him. Almost immediately from there he jumped between Loras Tyrell and his brother to save Loras from certain death.

Then he takes on the role of protector to Sansa even though it was given him in any offical capacity, and because he is the hound you always think there is something sinister about that, yet time and again he proves there is nothing sinister there. Now, with Arya he has done the same and I keep finding myself hoping that these people in the story that he encounters will see what we as the audience see and learn to appreciate him for what he is...but alas, Arya still wants his head on a stick.

Sorry for the rambling, but I really do have a soft spot for both the Hound and Tyrion...Characters most people probably dislike.

Tyrion definitely has his flaws (who doesn't) but I find him to be one of the more likeable characters. If he were anything like the rest of his family sans Jaime he would have tried to get Sansa pregnant already.

I wouldn't go so far as "friends." Arya can't really let go of the whole Mycah thing. Her distrust of the Hound, I think, is genuine. And his nature doesn't help, because he's incapable of saying nice things. Still, the Arya/Sandor portions of the book were some of the best, because it seems to be clear that the ransom isn't the only reason the Hound wants to get Arya back where she belongs, and Arya needed a little lesson in trusting people who she doesn't like.

The only pity is that that particular story arc leads to one of my favorite Arya moments in the whole series, and it can't and won't happen in the show.

Even I'm trying to think of what you are talking about. I can't think of anything that can't happen in the show. The one thing that I think you may be talking about is something that I expect them to do in episode1 next season.

The only hint I can think of without giving it away for people who still want surprises from the books is it's a scene where Arya asks somebody (not the Hound) some questions. It was similar to a scene that happened in the last episode, but with a different setting. The specific difference that makes it impossible in the show happened in season two.

Here's a link with spoilers that summarizes the chapter from whence it comes.

Ok, I guess I just figured that the scene in the show was meant to replace the other one since a certain someone in that bunch died in the show already. Going with the idea that it had already happened, I couldn't think of anything else that can't happen for her. I hope that makes sense. We really need to start splitting these threads into spoilers and no spoilers.

For me, the chapter you are describing is my favorite in the entire series. Knowing I won't see it on screen doesn't kill it for me though... like I said, I have made my peace with the different formats...

but in the first two seasons I found many people who I talk to in real life (as opposed to mesage boards) hated Tyrion simply because the Starks did and the fact he was a Lannister. Much of his redeeming qualities only cme forth in the early stages of season two but I like the guy from the beginning. His sense of humor is awesome and he continuously proves to be smarter than anyone else in the books/series. So yeah, at this point probably everyone loves Tyrion, but I would venture that wasn't always the case (at least with the people I speak about the show with).

I can't say how he's portrayed in the books, but most I heard seemed to think Mama Stark was a crazy bitch screwing everything up by blaming him. I would guess a lot is the character, but also a lot is Peter Dinklage who is pretty brilliant. I mean he won the Emmy in his first season (and Golden Globe after that) so he had to be doing something right from the start. Before Dany went from kinda whiny and entitled to QUEEN Tyrion was kind of the protagonist of the whole thing (especially after Ned took his leave). I'm not seeing what there was not to like. But I believe you when you say you found people who did manufacture some stuff.

I thought almost every scene was quite magnificent and did a good job of catching up the show to the books to set up season 4..

There were about 5 or 6 major major plot points in the book that as yet had not been covered by the show that all were covered in this episode and this episode felt like one in which the moral compass of every single remaining character was exposed.

The part involving Asha was slightly different, but meets the same end and Jaime being back in town with Brienne might change a couple things, but shouldn't be a big deal. Other than that, all the loose ends are tied up and the show is back to being true to the book. The only part that was a little out of place for me was the useless banter between Davos and Gendry regarding Mel.. if they had used that time instead for Davos to recant the story about the siege of Storm's End that would have been marvelous.

sidenote: I did find out last week that there are currently four characters in the series that are dead on the show and alive in the books... I won't spoil anything, but I will not that as we go further I am accepting the changes much better than I was even a couple weeks ago; The frustration that some people feel over changes can drain their enjoyment of the show, which is ultimately an adaptation, nothing more, nothing less.

I'm glad to hear they're not following them too closely. I plan to wait until the show is over before I start the books (hopefully they'll be done by then as well) and I'd like it to be a new experience to some degree.

They may die next season which would still be considered based on the 3rd book so I don't know if you should really consider them deviating from the books. I do miss some of the characters they had to leave out though, particularly Strong Belwas who would have been more entertaining than Daenerys' other advisors.

I really honestly cannot recall who you are talking about... From every storyline I remember from book 5, at least. I think the show has tied up all the loose ends, really. Maybe by 'dead' you mean absent from season 3?

Minor changes: differences in naming, appearance, and age

One of the people under that (name starts with R) has been mentioned by GRRM as having a larger part in Winds of Winter. So, we have a dead character from the series who plays a role much later in the books...

From my reading of the books, I will say that I personally don't think it's a big deal and anyway, most of those deaths happened in Season 1 and Season 2. Regarding PP from Q, there are numerous other characters from Q that can fill in... also Q from Q might be able to do that since we don't know if they are a good/bad character in the books, even.

I would argue that Jaime and Brienne being back in town now instead of later has the potential to change a lot of things. Granted, they are things that can be easily written around, but there are going to be things that have to change because of the timing. Honestly, what I think they will do with it is a good twist, so I'm not complaining, but it's still a pretty major change from the books.

I think that perhaps one possible reason the showrunners wanted to change the timing of the return is to invent a bunch of scenes not in book 3 as filler for the fourth season. Just like they've shown us conversations between Cersei & Jaime that never occurred in the books in earlier seasons, by having the reunion come before Jeoffrey's wedding as opposed to after it allows the showrunners to have these great characters in the Lannister family all have scenes where they play off of each other and interact with each other, like we did on the show last night, even if they weren't moments from the books.

I love this show, my only fear is that they'll catch up to Martin before he can finish the novels. He needs to just be locked in a room until he finishes.

I've seen an interview where GRRM basically said, one thing he liked about writing the books before the show was that he didn't feel any pressure to finish in a certain timeframe, and now that there's a show, that pressure is there. So he does seem to feel a need to move things along. Whether that actually translates into results, I don't know. I guess if I absolutely had to say yes or no, I think it would help in at least getting Winds of Winter out by perhaps the end of next year, which would be much quicker than the rest of the books.

That's the new mode of TV show running. the next ti last episode is for the 'holy shit' moments. The finale is to wrap up loose ends and project the story forward. It's been true of the Sopranos, the Wire, Mad Men, etc.

For the Wire, the next to last episode contained the narrative climax of each season, except for maybe the 5th (though arguably there too, I've only watched that season once, though, so I don't remember it as well).

Season 1. Wallace killed. D'Angelo turns against the game (this is the episode with the "Where the fuck is Wallace" speech).

Season 2. Sobotka arrested and then killed, the event that triggers the final collapse of the union.

2.) I really want to figure out why Ford is trolling GM through Mad Men and how this is all going to play out. They have force fed us those 60's/70's era Lincoln ads all season during commercial breaks and Chevy is the headline account for the firm in the show? That has to blow up at some point. That or I just don't know what they're going for here.

Kiernan Shipka (Sally) had an amazing performance, and of course so did Jon Hamm (Don) like always. Both should win emmys, IMO. It's going to be an interesting final two episodes. I would have to think either Sally will tell Betty or Megan before this season's end. Also....I hope there's a bigger secret revealed about Bob Benson other than he's gay, because of that was the big mystery around him, then come on Weiner!

I also think we should start a Mad Men discussion thread for the next 2 episodes, now that GOTs is over for the season,

Basically you have the Red Woman and Davos workign almost as an angel and a devil on his shoulders. The importance of Gendry is that he represents a conflict for Stannis and helps to juxtapose the different kings.

I actually like this alteration as well. Look at Tywin stating that killing 12 men is better than a thousand while Davos is screaming that saving one innocent person is worth risking thousands of others...

Stannis on the show is much better than stannis in the book and he is growing on me... Davos is building up to Bronn like status (Bronn being by far the coolest minor character in ASOIAF)

I don't think the comparison of Davos to Bronn is a good one. Bronn is a minor character while Davos is a major one (he gets a POV, he is Hand of the King, has an important arc, etc). The characters are also as different as can be (Davos is probably the most moral character and Bronn is an amoral sellsword).

That is a great question to ask. I think when you pair it with the conversation between Cersei and Tyrion, you get your answer. One innocent life to kill your enemies, but for every enemy you kill you, two more enemies arise. So, now you are talking about two innocent lives on top of the one you've already spent against the thousand. It's never just one innocent life. Not really spelled out for the audience, but it is a connection that I just made, which is pretty deep.

Actually, Bran's going toward the action. The show has gotten away from it a bit, but there's Mance and all the wildlings making for the wall (Jon, Ygritte & co were the scouting party). And you also have the White Walkers and their army of the dead. Winter is coming.

Just curious, did you watch last night's episode? Do you remember that scene with Sam and Bran where Sam was all like "WTF?!?! WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO GO NORTH OF THE WALL?!?!?!"? I believe that may have been a hint as to what was coming for Bran. Just FYI.

Of greater concern is the pace of the books vs. seasons. It's an issue that fans pointed out from the moment the show was greenlit and now even HBO is beginning to realize there could be an issue. Book 5 took Martin six years to write and it was released in 2011. "I finally understand fans' fear - which I didn't a couple years ago: What if the storytelling catches up to the books?," says HBO programming president Michael Lombardo. "Let's all hope and pray that's not going to be a problem."

Martin, for one, isn't worried. The way the author sees it, producers have plenty of material to keep Thrones rolling. "I think the odds against that happening are very long," Martin says when asked about the show catching up to his novels. "I still have a lead of several gigantic books. I fthey include everything in the books, I don't think they're going to catch up with me. If they do, we'll have some interesting discussions."

Hmm, I wonder if that quote from Martin was current. Or he doesn't understand the meaning of "several." Still, he wouldn't be happy if the show caught up, so hopefully that's incentive to get cracking on finishing books.