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Politics…

I watched the debate between HRC and Trump. I’ll say right off the bat (old bat?) that I’m not crazy about either of them, but I don’t think Trump has the job training to lead a nation. To me, he’s the Kim Kardasshian of Bidness. HRC? My strong aversion to her has always been visceral more than logical. When she yells, she sounds like my mom and THAT’S not good. As for the emails, etc, well, having grown up during the Cold War, with a dad who was a wargamer with super-secret government clearance, I accept that there are things going on with government that I don’t need to know, will never know, and will be glad I don’t know.

The debate was a “consciousness raising” experience for me. After thinking about it I realized that we’re involved in the first ever moment in which a woman is a serious contender for the presidency. It’s the first time we’ve seen a woman’s face, heard a woman’s voice and watched the interaction between a male and a female on that platform.

I’ve never been a feminist. I’ve always been a “personist”. I believe seeing gender and skin color is pandering to the obvious, and that inside each one of us is a unique individual who deserves to be seen and heard on his/her own merits. As I watched the debate, I realized that my beliefs are probably out there in the stratosphere. I’m still keeping them, though. Shoot for the stars, right?

Trump bullied HRC in exactly the way some of the men — husbands, boyfriends, bosses — in my life have bullied me. He talked over her. He contradicted her without presenting a reasonable argument. He shifted questions from the topic under consideration to what he wanted to talk about. He yelled over her, “Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.” He interrupted her while she was making significant points.

Seeing that dynamic played out in that forum made me feel sick. That’s bad, but the strangest — worst — part of all was that he wasn’t called on this behavior. I wondered afterward if he wasn’t called on it because the moderator didn’t notice it, that kind of male behavior being just another attribute of manliness or if the moderator sensed that calling out Trump every time he did that would paralyze the debate…

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54 thoughts on “Politics…”

I am not pleased with either of our candidates, surely in the entire US of A there is a some one really worthy to lead this country. I can’t vote for Trump, he is a case of arrested development, a narcissist, a misogynist, a bigot, a pathological liar and possibly a psychopath. I am displeased with many of Clinton’s ideas, but feel I must save us from the clutches of the insane.

I felt the moderator was not in control, but then it has been that way from the start of these debates. You would think this is a third world country, this hate speak and how it is allowed. The VP debate moderator had no clue as to how to keep that discussion on tract. I know how you feel, it is sickening.

Yep. The idea that the first amendment protects hate speech — OK, I get that, it’s a slippery-slope to shut people up, but when someone makes veiled threats on another person’s life and EVERYONE gets it, that’s another thing completely and it happened more than once! Once upon a time there was the idea that my freedom (of speech and everything else) ended where another person’s began. I thought that was the tacit agreement we all make that keeps liberty alive, simple respect for others and for the law. 😦

I don’t know either. But I couldn’t watch the debate all the way through because I despise one candidate and don’t trust the other. I guess it’s a good thing that, not being an American citizen, I don’t have a vote. I’ll be glued to our television on November 8, for sure.

I have felt the stings of men like Trump throughout my career, so I am a feminist. I could never vote for him. But that doesn’t mean I’m going to vote for her either. In a safe state, I have the option of writing in Bernie, so I will.

I’ve felt those stings, too. Strangely enough I never identified them as being male privilege, but watching Trump, I got it. I truly have not been the same since this epiphany. I’m not in a safe state; my vote could matter so I’m (to my great surprise) voting for a woman BECAUSE she’s a woman and that’s the LAST thing I EVER thought I’d do. It sticks in my craw to vote “against” though, I guess, I’ll do that too. 😦

I wonder if ‘Voting’ was not a part of law then how many would vote when no candidate is liked by the citizens. And if the majority of the citizens do not vote will any wise candidate run for the leadership? But if there is this wise candidate somewhere s/he must come forward. Otherwise we vote or we don’t either way a nation will get into dark zone. Just the no voting allowance will give us the opportunity to tell- i didn’t choose this for the country or people!

some countries have what they call a “white vote” where a voter can submit a blank ballot. If most people vote that way, they have to start all over again. Jefferson said if fewer than 50% of the people show up to vote it constitutes a revolution. I think the problem in this country is too few people vote. It would be really interesting to see what would happen if the majority of qualified voters showed up and voted.

Yep, fewer than 50% vote. I think Jefferson had the idea that would constitute a vote of no-confidence in the government to which the government should respond by going to the people and finding out what they DO want. I personally think Switzerland comes closest to Jefferson’s idea. They vote on everything and have a direct democracy, but I guess that’s easier with a small population. The idea of a democratic republic was new in Jefferson’s time and no country had tried it before. It’s funny how we think of ourselves as a “new nation” compared to the rest of the world but the fact is we have the oldest continuous government in the world.

He didn’t call him out for all the reasons you mentioned and a bunch more because calling out Trump on anything is pointless. He isn’t rational, won’t respond appropriately, and you’re just giving him another chance to behave like an asshole.

Calling out Trump would have given him more reason to talk (and mug) over Hillary. I know what you mean about taking control of the debate, but could you actually picture anyone trying to control Donald Trump?

I think it’s also fair to point out that the moderator didn’t do his job AT ALL. It shouldn’t be the candidates’ jobs to control each other, that’s why they have a mediator in the first place! Extremely poorly run.

“I’ve never been a feminist. I’ve always been a “personist”.” Me too. Misogynistic men are flawed and illogical to me, rather than ‘types’ against whom I need female allies. Similarly, some women can be right ball-tearing bitches, and some can flutter their eyelashes to get their own way. Don’t respect either. If that makes me a misogynist, too bad.
Trump would probably have behaved the same way towards a male candidate. As for your mistrust of HRC – are you really a misogynist, or just a woman with a woman’s innate ability to see through another woman, and you’re not liking what you’re seeing?
I am very, very glad I don’t have to vote in your election.

These two have lost their souls to power and money. As a veteran, I consider Trump a draft dodger, and as far as HRC, I see her face in the crowd of shitbirds who spit on us, threw bags of human excrement at us, while waving the North Vietnamese flag. I do hope their legs grow together.
I don’t know if I should throw away my morals to vote against, or sit this one out. The American people will take it in the shorts either way.
Personally, I like women. I like women too much. My life would have been much easier if I’d been castrated at birth (which I believe HRC would’ve heartily agreed with).

I see it the same way you do. Funny what you say about castration (how’s THAT for a line no one ever thought they’d write ever) but I was thinking last night how different (better?) my life would have been if I had not had that icky propensity for falling in love… 🙂

I’m hoping that enough people show up to vote third party or write in, and we can start breaking down the two party system. I’ve been told by older generations that I’m naive for thinking this, but if we can’t change for the better, what’s the point?

This is not the time for a third party candidate. The net result of that could be a Trump presidency, so if you live in a state where your vote counts — a state with a lot of electoral votes — don’t take this as an opportunity for a protest vote. Change for the better can happen (has to, I think) but the momentum (and here Bernie is completely right) will come from the people we vote for down ticket. You probably noticed how the Repubs paralyzed Obama over a lot of issues — and the Supreme Court! That’s why it really matters who gets elected to the house and senate. Progressives (if that’s your bent) in the legislature will keep Hillary in line. As for Trump, I don’t know that if he were to be elected we’d even have a government any more, possibly a totalitarian mess from which we’d never recover.

I can’t vote for Clinton in good faith. Unfortunately I cannot be swayed by the “lesser of two evils” argument.
I’m still hopeful that the Republican Party will somehow replace trump before I have to cast a vote… but in my opinion it is absolutely time for a 3rd party vote. I want my vote to show that I won’t settle for picking between two awful choices. If it doesn’t do any good, so be it – at least in four years I can say I wasn’t responsible for whatever mess we find ourselves stuck in. And in 20 years when the two party system is gone, I can say I was part of the movement.

Indeed. In my case, I’d have a lot more money in the bank.
I expect HRC will win. She’s part of a machine that grinds on no matter what. I just hope she doesn’t change the national bird to the flying monkey. 🙂

Hi Martha. Have a question. Not a trick one. One I need another perspective on. I have been mulling over my attitude to Hillary Clinton and whether it makes me misogynistic. My conclusion is that I wouldn’t have the same response to woman I respected, but I don’t respect HRC. To me, she’s compromised her credibility as a role model by tacitly condoning her husband’s serial philandering (a more polished version of Trump’s, when you think about it, although Clinton had other things going for him). Small beer in the big scheme of things, perhaps, but indicative of a moral fluidity I can’t admire. And not a good example to other women. Stand by your man no matter what? In this day and age?
What do you think?

Well, yeah, the philandering… It’s possible HRC really loves Bill so much that his philandering is a small price to pay for the wonder of it all. It’s possible, but I’m too cynical to think so. Or they have always had an open arrangement and what goes on between them is their business (that’s my real belief).

He was truly an excellent president except for having insufficient integrity to say, “Whom I do is my business,” and let the chips fall. The fact that he lied about it disgusted me more than what he did which I thought was his business… Stupid, but his. That kind of “moral fluidity” — the lying — I have a lot of contempt for because it shows a lack of self-respect and respect for others.

HRC — I am misogynistic. I didn’t start out that way, although I’ve always been cautious around females probably because my mom was untrustworthy, my little girl friends were always finding new “best friends,” and there just seemed to be a whole female language that I didn’t (and don’t) get. I didn’t even have a female friend until I was 12. That was true during my working life, too.

And now (was it planned?) Wikileaks has released her speeches to the Wall Street Banks when she was working as a private consultant the day AFTER the tape revealing (who’s surprised?) that Trump is a sex-crazed skank. She admits to having a “private” truth and a “public” truth — admitting most cynically that she’s a hypocrite and a liar — a politician. I don’t care all that much about that (it is not news) but that the dirt on Trump showed up a day before the speeches I find somewhat troubling.

HRC is, to me, like any untrustworthy woman of my age group with whom I had to work, the person who would be “on my side” until she and I were up for the same job, then forget it. That’s how she seems to me and I believe that’s how she is.

That’s probably OK. She’ll operate in familiar and predictable ways; the people with whom she works will understand her and it will be fine. She and I will never be friends. 🙂

I don’t think it was lerve either. And the lying finished me as well. (Have said my piece about all that in my last post.)
Still not sure you’re being fair to yourself about the misogyny though. I also learned early to be cautious around females, being totally ignorant of the language and seeing female wiles as manipulative and dishonest. Also think women have a streak of ruthlessness (the lioness factor) and those who choose to exercise it are far scarier than men can ever be. But is that misogyny or just realism?

That’s a really good question and I don’t know the answer. I think at bottom we’re animals and it’s “Kill or be killed.” We forget that, cover it up, sentimentalize ourselves, intellectualize ourselves, but we want what we want and what we think belongs to us — and some of us are better socialized than others and I really believe that some of this “male” and “female” stuff is biological — the lioness for sure. I also think some of us are not especially (mentally) “male” or “female.” I think there is a kind of mental or intellectual androgyny and I’ve always known that about myself. I, also, never “got” the feminine wiles thing and was always a lot more like to say directly what I think, feel or want (‘like’ a man). I think there are more things in Heaven and Hell than are dreamt of in all our (I forgot) Horatio!!!

Do not feel that your votes don’t count and don’t avoid politics. The place where you can be sure your vote does count is the most important place — your representatives both on the state and national level — they have power and most of the time I think they really do represent their constituencies. There’s no “show” about them most of the time so people kind of ignore the “down ballot” candidates, and I think that’s a shame. They are our voices and if we don’t give theme our voice, then what are they going to do? Naturally, many are corrupt asshats, but not all and maybe not even most. Look at how the Repubs are trying to fend off the Trump because their belief and his behavior are totally at odds. 🙂 Now I’m going to go read your post.

I think this post is great! I have recently written a blog (my first blog) surrounding the idea this current election and diplomacy altogether – does our system need some ‘remodelling’, if our only choice of candidates are largely unpopular ones? Does this not point to a few flaws in the system? I would love for you to check out my blog (and post your opinion if you feel like it!)

I don’t know why he (Trump) wasn’t called on his behaviour, but as a male myself, I can say that I noticed it, and I found his behaviour disturbing and uncomfortable you watch. There was a crindginess to it too.

I think that this whole election is just completely out of hand. The major two party candidates are just awful, and no one has a clue on what poison should they choose. Now if you are voting for Trump, or Clinton 100% I mean no harm, but a large majority just seem baffled with what is going on in this election. We all had a small glimmer of hope as this could be the year where a third party candidate could finally take action and save us all, but that isn’t happening with that crazy line up either. All we can do is hope that whatever happens, we become closer as a nation and help our fellow americans instead of drawing more lines and barriers between us all. Honestly, would changing the 22nd amendment be such a bad idea at this point?

Thank you for the thoughtful and compassionate response. 🙂 I guess the lesson to take from this is no one is going to save us. We have to save ourselves and I think that might come (Bernie might agree) from carefully choosing our “down ticket” officials and it would sure help if we would stop reacting and start thinking. And definitely; if Obama could be enticed to stay at least one more term while we look at the reality of this mess it would be really helpful. As far as the presidential election, impossible to see what we are actually electing in this s*&^ storm. I’m ashamed of my country, of the people in it who don’t seem to understand that we are not an island but one of many other nations in the world who are increasingly dependent on each other. But, I’ve voted so all I can do has been done.

It’s flawed, very flawed. But it won’t be fixed in a day or one four year term or one election, and people disagree on how it’s flawed. But the ONE sure way to make it work better is for more people to vote. When 10% of eligible voters turn out, there’s no one to blame but ourselves. One thing I’d like to see is a “blank” vote which some countries have — if enough people go to vote and vote “blank” — an option — that sends a message to the government that the election isn’t working and they have to start over. I think if we had that option, more people WOULD vote.