I don't know, man...Mario got a $100 million to do what? Knock the ever living crap out of QBs.

no, Mario got paid to play football - something your son does. He isn't paid to hurt people on purpose. I played football too but I'd be shocked that some coach told a player to hurt me on purpose. Good clean hard hits are one thing, but having the people running the league telling you to give some guy a concussion or break a leg is thug behavior and evil if you ask me. I'd quote the rest of your post but I'm a fan of big hits and physical play too...but I am a fan of clean football, not dirty thug-like behavior being condoned by the people in charge (so that is all I take to task in your post). If a few guys go over the top that's one thing and you can't stop that, but once the people in charge cross the line and let it be known that the league is just another version of throwing Christians to the Lions I'm out...I'm not a fan of intentional pain and suffering. There is enough of that with clean play and a few guys pushing the envelope too far.

no, Mario got paid to play football - something your son does. He isn't paid to hurt people on purpose. I played football too but I'd be shocked that some coach told a player to hurt me on purpose. Good clean hard hits are one thing, but having the people running the league telling you to give some guy a concussion or break a leg is thug behavior and evil if you ask me. I'd quote the rest of your post but I'm a fan of big hits and physical play too...but I am a fan of clean football, not dirty thug-like behavior being condoned by the people in charge (so that is all I take to task in your post). If a few guys go over the top that's one thing and you can't stop that, but once the people in charge cross the line and let it be known that the league is just another version of throwing Christians to the Lions I'm out...I'm not a fan of intentional pain and suffering. There is enough of that with clean play and a few guys pushing the envelope too far.

I agree with you in principle, man, which is why I said it's a fine line between the two.

As far as hurting people on purpose, I have always understood that there is a difference between hurting someone and injuring someone. I think most defenders want to hurt someone. I do not think most of them want to injure another player.

Old school quotes not really applicable but funny anyway:

"I like to believe that my best hits border on felonious assault."
~ Jack Tatum

"I wouldn't ever set out to hurt anyone deliberately unless it was important – like a league game."
~ Dick Butkus

__________________"Football is only a diversion." ~ Houston Texans, Inc.

The players are paid to play football and win games. That includes the physical nature of the sport of tackling, hitting players and forcing fumbles.

But what a bounty system does is support the concept of HURTING an opposing player. That is beyond unsportsmanlike right there. Football is physical enough as it is, purporsely hurting someone is not football.

Plus you get into the whole notion of extra money to players for their play on the field. This circumvents their contract, NFL rules and the salary cap. What is to prevent an McNair from saying, "Cushing, here is your contract for $2 million per year for the next five years. But if you give Peyton a concussion or get him taken out of the game... there's an extra $2 million in cash from my pocket to yours." Yes that's grossly exhagerated but having a pool of money for players to do something circumvents the salary cap. You can't pay players anything outside of what their contract states.

What's going to be interesting is when this investigation leads to finding these cash payments being made and the players not reporting it on their tax return. Now you've got the IRS after them for tax evasion.

I was shocked at the penalties, but to be honest I think it's justified. And this will put a very quick end to any other bounty programs.

DB has a point. It is a fine line - but there IS a line. It's like boxing in a way. You can have a good clean boxing fight where both guys come out of it bloodied but you know it was clean...or you can have Mike Tyson biting off someone's ear.

To me it's kind of like falling in love. You can't truly describe it but you know it when you feel it...ie the difference between lust and love. When I see a hard, clean hit, I love it too, but when I see a dirty hit I get ill. Players can and do get injured with clean hits, or even no hits all the time. But for a team and staff to incentivize it with monatary gifts reminds me of the movie The Running Man
. It is beyond the pale and something that should never be condoned or tolerated.

no, Mario got paid to play football - something your son does. He isn't paid to hurt people on purpose. I played football too but I'd be shocked that some coach told a player to hurt me on purpose. Good clean hard hits are one thing, but having the people running the league telling you to give some guy a concussion or break a leg is thug behavior and evil if you ask me. I'd quote the rest of your post but I'm a fan of big hits and physical play too...but I am a fan of clean football, not dirty thug-like behavior being condoned by the people in charge (so that is all I take to task in your post). If a few guys go over the top that's one thing and you can't stop that, but once the people in charge cross the line and let it be known that the league is just another version of throwing Christians to the Lions I'm out...I'm not a fan of intentional pain and suffering. There is enough of that with clean play and a few guys pushing the envelope too far.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Double Barrel

I agree with you in principle, man, which is why I said it's a fine line between the two.

As far as hurting people on purpose, I have always understood that there is a difference between hurting someone and injuring someone. I think most defenders want to hurt someone. I do not think most of them want to injure another player.

Old school quotes not really applicable but funny anyway:

"I like to believe that my best hits border on felonious assault."
~ Jack Tatum

"I wouldn't ever set out to hurt anyone deliberately unless it was important – like a league game."
~ Dick Butkus

We were always told "football isn't a contact sport, it's a collision sport..."

People get hurt and injured in collisions...

I never set out to injur someone, but I damn sure wanted to hurt folks. I wanted to hit people so hard that they had to get out of the game. I didn't want to break bones or anything like that and I never even thought about concsussions until someone got one....

But I did want to knock the crap out of folks and see them slow to get up....

If they were injured so be it...If they took the hits and kept getting back up, so be it...

wow...I don't know if I have ever heard of a year suspension for a head coach.

Flip side: They still have a Lombardi trophy, though. I could live with it if I was a Saints fan.

Not that I'm condoning what occurred by any means...just sayin', that championship trophy is what the game is all about.

This league is bi-polar. I've got DVDs sold by the NFL that celebrate big, brutal hits, most of which would be considered illegal today. I've seen recent documentaries on NFLN about Al Davis ("If you ain't cheating, you aren't trying") and the 'roided up Steelers teams of the '70's.

It's an interesting paradox to see a league celebrate it's brutal past as they try to transform themselves into something nice and softer.

Don't mind me...just a cynic sittin' in the corner plopping out brain droppings without a filter right now...train of thought stuff...

They should have stripped it from them too ....

Funny we hear that this bounty thing is unprecedented .... How quickly we forget that Buddy Ryan did this same thing when he was here in Houston , I recall players speaking openly of it at the time .... particularly a special teams player. (remember the army helmet?).
Then again with Ryan in Philly some years later ....

I think every one of them involved , both players and coaches. should be banned from the league for life. Intentionally attempting to injure another player is just going .... too far.

I never liked the cut of Greg Williams jib. Seems like an odd duck. Now we find out he's a masochistic freak. And Peyton seemed equally odd to me. But I figured that was because he allegedly enjoys getting tight with a Vike or two. I believe that was a phrase originally coined by Brett Farve. He went into rehab for pills back in the day.

The statement released by the NFL on Wednesday listed the following findings in the investigation:

1. The Saints defensive team operated a pay-for-performance/bounty program, primarily funded by players, during the 2009, 2010, and 2011 seasons. Under that program, players regularly made cash "donations" to a pool, and were "fined" for mental errors, loafing, penalties, and the like. At least one assistant coach (defensive coordinator Williams) also occasionally contributed to the pool. There is no evidence that any club money was contributed to the program.

2. Payments were made for plays such as interceptions or fumble recoveries. All such payments are against league rules. Payments also were made for plays on which opposing players were injured. In addition, specific players were sometimes targeted. The investigation showed bounties being placed on four quarterbacks of opposing teams - Brett Favre, Cam Newton, Aaron Rodgers, and Kurt Warner. Multiple sources have confirmed that several players pledged funds toward bounties on specific opposing players, with defensive captain Jonathan Vilma offering $10,000 to any player who knocked Brett Favre out of the NFC Championship Game in 2010.

3. Coach Williams acknowledged that he designed and implemented the program with the assistance of certain defensive players. He said that he did so after being told by Payton that his assignment was to make the defense "nasty." coach Williams described his role as overseeing record keeping, defining payout amounts, deciding on who received payouts, and distributing envelopes with cash to players who "earned" rewards.

4. In each of the 2009-2011 seasons, the Saints were one of the top five teams in the league in roughing the passer penalties. In 2009 and 2011, the Saints were also in the top five teams in unnecessary roughness penalties; in 2010, the Saints ranked sixth in the category. In the January 16, 2010 divisional playoff game against the Arizona Cardinals, Saints defensive players were assessed $15,000 in fines for fouls committed against opposing players. The following week, in the NFC Championship Game against the Minnesota Vikings, Saints defensive players were assessed $30,000 in fines for four separate illegal hits, several of which were directed against quarterback Brett Favre.

5. Coach Williams now acknowledges that when he was first questioned about this matter in early 2010 he intentionally misled NFL investigators and made no effort to stop the program after he became aware of the league's investigation.

6. Coach Williams further confirmed that the program continued during the 2010 and 2011 seasons, and that he occasionally contributed funds to the pool in each of those seasons.

7. Assistant Head Coach/Defense Vitt acknowledged that he was aware of the program in 2009-2011. He admitted that, when interviewed in 2010, he "fabricated the truth" to NFL investigators and denied that any pay-for- performance or bounty program existed at the Saints.

8. Coach Vitt said one of his primary roles was to monitor the activity of coach Williams. This was based on the direction of coach Payton, who apparently had less than full confidence in coach Williams. Despite coach Vitt's knowledge of the bounty program, his understanding of the terms "knock- out" and "cart-off," his witnessing coach Williams handing out envelopes that he believed to contain cash, and his acknowledgement that the defensive meeting preceding the 2010 NFC Championship Game may have "got out of hand" with respect to Brett Favre, coach Vitt claimed he never advised either coach Payton or general manager Loomis of the "pay-for-performance/bounty" program.

9. A summary prepared following a Saints preseason game included the statement, "1 Cart-off - Crank up the John Deer (sic) Tractor" in reference to a hit on an opposing player. Similar statements are reflected in prepared documents or slides in connection with other games in multiple seasons. A review of the game films confirms that opposing players were injured on the plays identified in the documents.

10. When interviewed in 2012, Payton claimed to be entirely unaware of the program, a claim contradicted by others. Further, prior to the Saints� opening game in 2011, coach Payton received an email from a close associate that stated in part, "PS Greg Williams put me down for $5000 on Rogers (sic)." When shown the email during the course of the investigation, coach Payton stated that it referred to a "bounty" on Green Bay quarterback Aaron Rodgers.

11. In early 2010, Mr. Loomis advised coach Payton that the league office was investigating allegations concerning a bounty program. Coach Payton said that he met with his top two defensive assistants, coach Williams and coach Vitt, in advance of the interview with league investigators and told them, "Let's make sure our ducks are in a row." Remarkably, coach Payton claimed that he never inquired of coach Williams and coach Vitt as to what happened in the interviews, never asked them if a "pay-for-performance" or bounty program was in fact in place, and never gave any instructions to discontinue such a program.

12. In January 2012, prior to the Saints' first playoff game of the 2011 season, coach Payton was advised by Mr. Loomis that the league office had reopened the investigation. coach Payton made a cursory inquiry but took no action to ensure that any bounty program was discontinued.

13. Loomis was not present at meetings of the Saints defense at which bounties were discussed and was not aware of bounties being placed on specific players. Mr. Loomis became aware of the allegations regarding a bounty program no later than February 2010 when he was notified of the investigation into the allegations during a meeting with NFL Executive Vice President-Football Operations Ray Anderson. He was directed to ensure that any such program ceased immediately. By his own admission, Mr. Loomis did not do enough to determine if a pay-for-performance/bounty program existed or to end any such program that did exist.

14. Saints owner Tom Benson notified Mr. Loomis in January 2012 prior to the team's participation in the playoffs that the league's investigation had been reopened. Mr. Benson reiterated his position that a bounty program was unacceptable and instructed Mr. Loomis to ensure that if a bounty program existed at the Saints it would stop immediately. By his own admission, Mr. Loomis responded to this direction by making only cursory inquiries of Coaches Payton and Williams. He never issued instructions to end the bounty program to either the coaching staff or the players.

15. There is no evidence that Saints ownership had any knowledge of the pay- for-performance or bounty program. There is no evidence that any club funds were used for the program. Ownership made clear that it disapproved of the program, gave prompt and clear direction that it stop, and gave full and immediate cooperation to league investigators.

I'm no Vikings fan, but I think that without this program they don't win that NFC championship game. This clearly factored into the multiple brutal hits Favre and AP took in that game. Screw them, I'll never root for the Saints to win anything ever again. Their 2010 Super Bowl* win will now have an asterisk by it. I hope Brees holds out for a trade too cause he's too good for that organization.

__________________
Life is too important to be taken seriously. -Oscar Wilde

I'm no Vikings fan, but I think that without this program they don't win that NFC championship game. This clearly factored into the multiple brutal hits Favre and AP took in that game. Screw them, I'll never root for the Saints to win anything ever again. Their 2010 Super Bowl* win will now have an asterisk by it. I hope Brees holds out for a trade too cause he's too good for that organization.

Whoa, nice find. Much more damaging than I first though in regard to Peyton. I have a feeling Benson isn't too pleased. Payton and GM Loomis likely out of a job for good with the Saints. Went directly against ownership and f*cked the franchise.