I wonder if it's possible that your fiance's idea of how much of a relationship they had 10 years ago and her idea of how much of a relationship they had were rather different.

However, your fiance sounds like a keeper!

Definitely a keeper.

I wouldn't be surprised if her out of character behavior is this, or the whole staking her claim to her friend because she feels threatened that he's getting married, or the last singleton standing discomfort (or some combination) is behind her claim. I'll place my bets on the last two.

Clearly, their relationship was not all that serious at the time, if he was making major purchases without input. I mean, if I were in a relationship that was well established and I thought was headed to the long term, I'd get a little input. Maybe not veto power, but an opinion. Heck, if I felt they knew me well enough (or had a useful perspective), I might get input from them regardless of relationship. But to buy property without any input indicates it was really new (ie, casual dating at most) or headed nowhere fast.

RE: the bolded.

Years ago, I had been involved with a man for almost 2 years, but it had been a bit on-again/off-again, and the on-again times often looked more like a casual fling than a true relationship, as my ex had a bit of a problem with commitment and "labels"... I was in the process of becoming a homeowner, and I wanted him to look at a potential house before I made an offer on it, not because we were so serious that I wouldn't buy it if he didn't like the feng shui, but because he was a carpenter by trade and had some knowledge of potential problems to look for in a house. He dithered about setting a time for a showing though, so I got fed up with the delay and made the offer, knowing that I would be requiring an inspection contingency by a licensed inspector anyhow.

Maybe a month after closing, I decided that with no landlord to answer to, I wanted a pet. I found a lady with a litter of kittens for adoption, and brought 2 home. On the way home, I stopped at ex's mother's house, where he was living, to show off the little guys, and he flipped his lid that I had become a pet owner without so much as a by his leave. I was simply flabbergasted that he thought he should have any say in the matter, we didn't live together after all and he couldn't be bothered to have an opinion when I asked for it so why did he think he should have one now.

He did end up eventually moving in (right about the time his mom moved out of the area), and we were briefly engaged (he proposed when he realized I was on the precipice of leaving him forever, the proposal only postponed the inevitable). So ultimately, yes, we did end up with a relationship serious enough that we should have been consulting each other about real estate purchases and pet adoptions, but at the time that the events occurred, I did not and still do not consider that our relationship was that serious. Apparently he felt differently though.

I felt so great about everything after speaking with DF and reading the feedback here, that I had no reservations about seeing BW at another dance rehearsal this weekend. Unfortunately, she seems to have taken a different tack in her commentary now.

Bit of background: I'm a professional costume designer, degree, experience and all. BW is a professional lighting designer with similar credentials. The choreographer of our routine and producer of the dance show we're working toward is the significant other of BW's younger brother, so they are family. Rehearsal was at this woman's house.

Shortly after I arrived, but before rehearsal began (the last two were very late, but that's unimportant) BW was going over her costume progress with me. Not uncommon as the girls will seek advice from me. She was making good strides, but commented that all of our gloves should contrast with the costumes to be more visible (neon yellow with a baby blue dress, etc). I reminded BW that I had already completed my costume, as had the featured dancer (who is currently under employed) as well as the third dancer (a college student who laments her poverty frequently), so purchasing new accessories so shortly before the performance was not likely feasible. I added that with the various commissions and fashion show scheduled to be completed that same weekend, I was too busy to make yet another trip to the costume store.

Her response was to say that she knows plenty of costume designers who make upwards of 6 figures a year...in NYC and LA. I remarked that while that may be true, DF is very high up in his company and almost to a position where he could move, but not right now. Her response was to cooly add that DF would never leave his hometown (our city) or be so far from his family. I said nothing in response as I didn't want to get dragged into another debate over who DF is now vs who he was 10+ years ago.

What she doesn't know is the DF looks forward to a change of professional scenery which would also allow me one as well. In the meantime I'm enjoying being self-employed.

I haven't had a chance to talk to DF about this yet as he was in bed when I got home, but at this point it's just talk from BW and I wonder if I even need to just yet. Thoughts?

Edited to add: I forgot to mention that BW loudly reminded everyone her thoughts on gloves about once an hour after the last 2 arrived. I kept reiterating my reply of already acquired costumes.

I'm a little confused by the jump from "changing the costumes now is impractical" based on you being busy and the other girls being unable to afford it, to a comment on the salary of costume designers elsewhere. Was there something else in between, or did BW make the non sequiter? Then I guess you said something like "I'd move, but DF can't transfer until he gets the promotion."

Unfortunately, it looks like BW needs to be moved from the "friend" category of interactions to the "rude/toxic" one.

Instead of responding to her statements with any more information, you need to engage the E-Hell battle plan - Why would I want to do that, What an interesting assumption, Won't you have some bean dip, So kind of you to take an interest, and I'm afraid that won't be possible all could have been deployed to terminate her unwanted behavior.

What I see her doing is trying to one-up you on how well she knows your DF by virtue of being friends with him for so long - she seems to be having trouble dealing with the idea that there is a woman who is so much closer to your DF that he's going to marry her. In order to avoid coming across as a Bridezilla, you are going to have to stay very, very, very calm when you talk to your DF about her - but you do need to talk to him about her. She's saying that kind of thing to your face - given that she's your fiance's close friend, what is she saying to your DF when you can't hear?

POD to the above. Especially the E-Hell battle plan. By responding to her jibes you are giving her the idea that she has much more say in your lives than she does. And you are allowing her to get in your headspace and cause you stress. This is not ok. You don't need to play that game. When she makes odd/rude/toxic comments, you just need to reply with one of the patented e-Hell phrases

One of the things you can't change is the fact that she has known your DF for a very long time. However, what she doesn't realize is that DF has moved on to a new future (you!) while she is still stuck in the past. She is doing everything she can to stay relevant in his life and if that means making you feel bad, then oh well.

As many people have said on the site, it takes two people to play tug of war.

As tempting as it is to correct her assumptions, I think you'll get a lot more mileage out of a blank stare. When she throws out these zingers, act as though you didn't even hear them. Don't reward her with a reaction.

I especially agree that it is well worth speaking with your DF about her recent comment.

If she were a friend of your DF's with whom you would not necessarily be interacting on a regular basis, that would be a matter you could address with a blank stare and possibly nothing more. As she is presumably a significant friend to your DF who *he* sees frequently, *and* she has been asked to be a significant member of the wedding party - your DF needs to be aware of her continuing comments which are awkward at best and suggestive of resentment/competitiveness at worst.

In your shoes I would want DF's thoughts on the matter, and how to address it - which may involve his speaking with her.

I'm also mildly cringing to imagine what the BW's toast at the wedding reception will sound like.

Logged

Never refuse to do a kindness unless the act would work great injury to yourself, and never refuse to take a drink -- under any circumstances.Mark Twain

I definitely think a reconsideration of her participation in the wedding party is in order.

Sometimes, groups of friends have a very specific social heirarchy and dynamic that has become so ingrained that it's taken as gospel. Then, when late in the game the dynamic is changed, other people who have relied on their position in the heirarchy become very threatened and the results are somewhat akin to what is happening here.

By way of background, when my husband and I married, he was part of a group of people in our shared home town who had known each other, directly and by extension, for a number of years, since high school. At the time that we married, they were all in their mid to late 30's. DH was a late bloomer in life. All of his "crowd" were married and many with kids, and there was only one single person, a woman, left in the circle. DH was still figuring out where he fit professionally, having wanted to be a teacher for many years but, unable to afford college and needing to earn a living, was slogging it out one-class-at-a-time. Meanwhile, the other singleton in the group, the female, was a teacher already.

When DH and I met and he told me his dreams, I said "go for it. I make enough money for both of us." He quit his dead-end job, went back to school full time, received multiple honors and graduated with highest marks, and walked out of school into a teaching position in a private school. During that interim, he and I married. So he went from being the "poor guy, never got his act together and is still alone" to achieving to his highest abilities and getting married. In other words, he left his spot at the bottom of the heirarchy.

The woman in his group who was still single did exactly to me what BW is doing to you - attempting to erode my faith in my sweetie. It worked exactly once. The second time she tried it, my response was "I can't imagine why you think he wouldn't succeed." (She had told me that, based on her experience, that DH was a "bad bet.") After that, she would literally get up and leave any gathering when DH and I arrived. The audacity of DH! To upset the social order!

And so that is, IMO, what is happening here. She feels unsteady in her place in the heirarchy, although I doubt that she can recognize it. And since you were the catalyst for the change, her attempts to restore the prior order must begin and end with you.

Forget her.

Drop her from the bridal party - she does not truly wish you and your fiance well, and that is the primary requirement for a member of the wedding party.

Ug, how annoying. It seems to me that she is trying to mark her "territory" as the woman who knows him best, however she is working with dated information. I don't know that I would go to extremes at this time; it's entirely possible that this is just a phase as she is truly forced to accept that your DF has changed and grown and has someone more important in his life than her. She might get over it, she might not. I'd take all of her comments as the eyeroll-worthy blustering that they are at this point, though.

Hopefully she doesn't escalate the territorial behavior to taking a wee on your DF.

Logged

“Poetry is a sword of lightning, ever unsheathed, which consumes the scabbard that would contain it.” PBS

OP, I just want to say that I think it is good that you looked into what BW said because sometimes it has been known for a fiance to appear to be one thing and then truly be another. But clearly you are finding that BW is the one who isn't what you thought.

Ug, how annoying. It seems to me that she is trying to mark her "territory" as the woman who knows him best, however she is working with dated information. I don't know that I would go to extremes at this time; it's entirely possible that this is just a phase as she is truly forced to accept that your DF has changed and grown and has someone more important in his life than her. She might get over it, she might not. I'd take all of her comments as the eyeroll-worthy blustering that they are at this point, though.

Hopefully she doesn't escalate the territorial behavior to taking a wee on your DF.

I'm parking my pod here. With him getting married, she's unsure of her place in his life and is trying to assert that she, not you, knows him best. She's wrong, but pointing it out is unlikely to go well. Brush off her jibes, because they come from a place of insecurity. If DF still wants her as BW, keep her. At this point, kicking her out of the bridal party would likely end a friendship that's been in place for many years. Just forge ahead. If she keeps getting obnoxious, call her on it in an "I'm getting this weird vibe from you lately" way.

Logged

William wondered why he always disliked people who said "no offense meant." Maybe it was because they found it easier to say "no offense meant" than actually to refrain from giving offense.

CharlieBraun, what you posted strikes a very serious chord with me. Before moving out here to be with DF, as I was finishing up my degree, I hadn't yet met BW, but knew they had briefly dated and still hung out. As I'd been in a position in my youth of being the reason a member of a social hierarchy suddenly changed status and all the other friends were very upset, I spoke at great length about it with DF. He assured me even then that back then they were casual at best and when he expressed interest in becoming more serious, her response was that he felt more like a brother and it was never going to happen, so he moved on. Coincidentally, about a year after that is when he traded in the 2 impractical cars for the more sensible truck.

Then after moving out here and meeting and spending more time with BW, I came to see there really was nothing there between them so I put it out of my mind. BW even started dating another member of our group. She and I would get together for lunch and shopping when she was in town from work, and admittedly I was truly content.

There is a group meeting scheduled for Thursday as our event and all it's little pieces have to come together the Friday before Halloween. Then another rehearsal on Saturday. I'll have plenty of time to practice how I'm to respond before spending a whole weekend with her around during the event.

I don't think BW is trying to undermine you because she dislikes you or wants to be with your soon-to-be DH. I think maybe she's always envisioned herself as his "the one who got away" and enjoyed that bump to her self-esteem and now she's realizing "Oh wait, maybe not wanting to be together was mutual? Well.... whatever. I'm special to him, too!"

I don't think she's a threat to you or your marriage at all. That said, she's being rude to you and it needs to stop. If it happens again I'd probably take her aside and say "BW, you've been strange with me lately, almost hostile. Is there a problem?" and see how she acts once you've called her on it.

I had a very similar experience with XDH. His BW was happy to be a part of our wedding, but as the time drew near, the jabs and behind the back comments got worse and worse. Unfortunately it didn't stop after we were married. It didn't have anything to do with our divorce, but looking back, I wouldn't have had her in our wedding had I known how she was going to behave.

She appears to be having issues accepting your role and adjusting behavior accordingly. I would seriously reconsider having her in your wedding. You both should have people up there standing with you that are good friends and supportive of BOTH of you.

CharlieBraun, what you posted strikes a very serious chord with me. Before moving out here to be with DF, as I was finishing up my degree, I hadn't yet met BW, but knew they had briefly dated and still hung out. As I'd been in a position in my youth of being the reason a member of a social hierarchy suddenly changed status and all the other friends were very upset, I spoke at great length about it with DF. He assured me even then that back then they were casual at best and when he expressed interest in becoming more serious, her response was that he felt more like a brother and it was never going to happen, so he moved on. Coincidentally, about a year after that is when he traded in the 2 impractical cars for the more sensible truck.

Then after moving out here and meeting and spending more time with BW, I came to see there really was nothing there between them so I put it out of my mind. BW even started dating another member of our group. She and I would get together for lunch and shopping when she was in town from work, and admittedly I was truly content.

There is a group meeting scheduled for Thursday as our event and all it's little pieces have to come together the Friday before Halloween. Then another rehearsal on Saturday. I'll have plenty of time to practice how I'm to respond before spending a whole weekend with her around during the event.

Let me add my pod that it's time to rethink her role in your wedding. It sounds like it's time for DF to intervene since this is his friend who's disrespecting his future wife.

Also, if she brings up again things that were true about your DF from ten years ago, it should be fair to state, "You do realize people can and often do change from what their goals or interests were a decade prior? So, I'm really excited about how my costume has turned out; blah blah blah."