The comfort value of a belief is a shaky prop at best. And "They've also done some good" is hardly a ringing endorsement. I often wonder where we'd be if all the human energy, ingenuity and dedication devoted to religion throughout the ages had been directed toward human betterment.

Often, religion and human betterment go hand-in-hand.

...HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

No. Just... no.

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'The idea that things must have a beginning is really due to the poverty of our imaginations.' -- Bertrand Russel

Once my mom asked me why I didn't become religious, since I "really seem like the kind of person who wanted to fix the world."

My answer was that religious people aren't inherently better at fixing the world than non-religious people; that's up to the individual. It's not that religious people are more moral than others, it's just that they've got better PR.

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Formerly known as Eva-Beatrice and Wykked Wytch.

Quote from: sandman

There are very few problems that cannot be solved with a good taint punching.

An interesting conclusion. Would you mind at all sharing what brought you to that?

Need I remind you of the countless people who were inspired to improve themselves through religion? Need I remind you that MLK was a reverend, that Mr. Rogers was a minister? Need I remind you of the nuns who have fought for justice and quality of life?

Need I remind you of the countless people who were inspired to improve themselves through religion? Need I remind you that MLK was a reverend, that Mr. Rogers was a minister? Need I remind you of the nuns who have fought for justice and quality of life?

Many great and wonderful people have been religious. Many terrible people have been religious. Many MANY morally mediocre people have been religious. I'm sure the same can be said about atheists (except with fewer examples in each category due to atheism being a relatively recent phenomenon).

I'm not convinced most of those people wouldn't have done those wonderful (or terrible) things without religion, and I see no reason to believe that religious people do great things in greater proportion than atheists.

An interesting conclusion. Would you mind at all sharing what brought you to that?

Need I remind you of the countless people who were inspired to improve themselves through religion? Need I remind you that MLK was a reverend, that Mr. Rogers was a minister? Need I remind you of the nuns who have fought for justice and quality of life?

Like John said, nice people will be nice without religion and terrible people would likewise also be terrible WITH it. Religiosity typically has little to do with a person's general moral character. It's far, far more likely that people who want to teach and inspire others--for better or for worse, good and bad--are going to turn to a big community organization that will attract lots of people who are willing to listen AND grants the speaker some measure of... I guess status or respect. Which, for much of history, were almost always churches, temples, synagogues, and the like and being a reverend, rabbi, or other religious figure.

I'm sorry, but you're going to have to provide some solid evidence that it is religion--and religion alone--that makes some people better themselves or makes people good people.

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'The idea that things must have a beginning is really due to the poverty of our imaginations.' -- Bertrand Russel

An interesting conclusion. Would you mind at all sharing what brought you to that?

Need I remind you of the countless people who were inspired to improve themselves through religion? Need I remind you that MLK was a reverend, that Mr. Rogers was a minister? Need I remind you of the nuns who have fought for justice and quality of life?

Like John said, nice people will be nice without religion and terrible people would likewise also be terrible WITH it. Religiosity typically has little to do with a person's general moral character. It's far, far more likely that people who want to teach and inspire others--for better or for worse, good and bad--are going to turn to a big community organization that will attract lots of people who are willing to listen AND grants the speaker some measure of... I guess status or respect. Which, for much of history, were almost always churches, temples, synagogues, and the like and being a reverend, rabbi, or other religious figure.

I'm sorry, but you're going to have to provide some solid evidence that it is religion--and religion alone--that makes some people better themselves or makes people good people.

How about the Quakers? I could count all the good things they've done, but it'll take all day.

What objectively good, moral things did the Quakers do that could NOT have been done by an atheist? Name ANYTHING that is objectively moral that a theist can say or do that an atheist cannot. Hitchens posed this challenge and offered $10,000 to anybody who could do this. Nobody could. In the end, it just doesn't seem to be possible. You just CAN'T prove that religion makes people good. Similarly, as anti-theist as I am, I concede that it doesn't TURN people bad. People are good or bad alongside being religious or not. Religious beliefs don't actually MAKE you a good person--or a bad one. Scripture is a wonderful tool and is so arcane and ambiguous that you can find support for nearly any argument if you choose to interpret or exploit it that way.

Religion can certainly be used to persuade or manipulate people to adopting certain beliefs or ideals, but so can other philosophies in the right hands. It's not a power religion itself has, but rather the way it's being used and the people it's being used ON.

Even if it takes all day, at this point I just want to know what you think religion has caused people to say and do that's not only objectively good, but also something unique to religion.

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'The idea that things must have a beginning is really due to the poverty of our imaginations.' -- Bertrand Russel