Whatever the amount of playoff wins, it's more than Roy Williams has. The guy was a ******* horse in the Eagles/Pats Super Bowl. It definitely isn't his fault the Eagles lost. Since a single WR's play directly affects the team so much, why did the Lions suck so badly with Williams there?

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Plus, you do realise he has a busy media calendar right? He is planning for post retirement? He is distracted? He is 36? He can't work off jams? His hands are as hard as ever?

Despite all of this, he still shits on Roy Williams.

Roy's had one season with over 1,000 yards. Owens hasn't had a full season with less than 1,000 yards since 1999.

Roy's had zero seasons with double-digit TDs. Owens hasn't gone a full season without double-digit TDs since 2003, and even that season (9 TDs) is better than anything Williams has ever put up.

Actually I am on record as saying 1) we paid to much, 2) I only understood the move if the idea was to let TO go, 3) I like what he gives us in the redzone more-so than TO b/c of his ability to catch the ball in traffic or the fade -- which opens up things for RBs, and 4) I think he is talented so....

1. I think we overpaid, but it wasn't overwhelming. He got the edge in negotiations.

2. The move was always made with the intention that he would take over for TO. "When" was the question. The move was also made for a playoff push that never happened.

3. TO's redzone skills were pretty awesome. If Roy can work to get open like that I'd be happy. It's not just a jump ball affair.

4. He is talented... can he play without making mistakes? Or play without crying if he doesn't get the ball? Or stay healthy? All questions that plague his past.

Whatever the amount of playoff wins, it's more than Roy Williams has. The guy was a ******* horse in the Eagles/Pats Super Bowl. It definitely isn't his fault the Eagles lost. Since a single WR's play directly affects the team so much, why did the Lions suck so badly with Williams there?

Despite all of this, he still shits on Roy Williams.

Roy's had one season with over 1,000 yards. Owens hasn't had a full season with less than 1,000 yards since 1999.

Roy's had zero seasons with double-digit TDs. Owens hasn't gone a full season without double-digit TDs since 2003, and even that season (9 TDs) is better than anything Williams has ever put up.

Oh stop it. You blindly applaud every move the Eagles and Wolverines make.

Really? I was pissed that they didn't trade Lito before last season. I was pissed that they took Kevin Kolb. I was pissed that they traded with you guys to trade back to take that piece of ****. Just a couple examples off the top of my head. Stop saying **** that you have no idea about.

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Can anyone on this forum stand up on your behalf and state differently?

I'm sure with all of your administrator powers, you can look back through my entire post history. The Eagles thread in the Eagles forum was started post-T.O, so you'll have to find another thread to see whatever comments I had at the time.

Really? I was pissed that they didn't trade Lito before last season. I was pissed that they took Kevin Kolb. I was pissed that they traded with you guys to trade back to take that piece of ****. Just a couple examples off the top of my head. Stop saying **** that you have no idea about.

Kevin Kolb FTW!!! I know you said it! LMAO.

I'm sure with all of your administrator powers, you can look back through my entire post history. The Eagles thread in the Eagles forum was started post-T.O, so you'll have to find another thread to see whatever comments I had at the time.

Nah, I like the current impression I have of you. heh. heh. heh. A blind homer and fantasy sports flakeout. hahaha. It's why I like ya. ;)

I have less of a problem with Roy filling the stat line like T.O. did and more of a problem with him not getting open.

It seems like he gets no separation at all. It's like you have to work with him for a long ass time to figure out how to throw him a perfect ball.

I feel like you have to get him the ball in a way that he can use his body to shield a defender because he never gets enough separation to create an easy throw.

I just don't feel like he's the best WR for Romo or Garrett. Romo and Garrett like the big play, they like streaky receivers. They've always had speed over the top (T.O./Glenn) with a big bodied safety valve underneath (Witten)...

Now he has Witten, Williams, and Crayton as his primary options -- all short-intermediate route receivers -- running in an offense that doesn't even have a 3 step drop in it's arsenal.

I just feel like we are trying to fit square pegs into circles with this personnel if we plan to stick to the same style of attack.

We MUST change into a power team. Short-intermediate routes, moving the chains, and running the ball down peoples throats... Then rely on the defense to hold it down.

If we try and run the same offense that we've had over the past 2 years, we will fail.

Garrett and Romo both have to adjust to their tools.

and please, don't try to sell me on Austin and his 15 career catches as our savior deep threat. Let him show some consistency first.

You're really trying to correlate one player's, especially a non-QB, worth on playoff wins and Super Bowl rings?Whatever the amount of playoff wins, it's more than Roy Williams has. The guy was a ******* horse in the Eagles/Pats Super Bowl. It definitely isn't his fault the Eagles lost. Since a single WR's play directly affects the team so much, why did the Lions suck so badly with Williams there?Despite all of this, he still shits on Roy Williams.Roy's had one season with over 1,000 yards. Owens hasn't had a full season with less than 1,000 yards since 1999. Roy's had zero seasons with double-digit TDs. Owens hasn't gone a full season without double-digit TDs since 2003, and even that season (9 TDs) is better than anything Williams has ever put up. Owens averages 0.74 TDs per game. Williams averages 0.43 TDs per game.
Owens had more yards and touchdowns in seven games in his shortest season than Williams had all of last year in 15 games.
SF 2003 (w/Owens)- 9th in the NFL at 24.0 ppg
SF 2004 (w/o Owens)- 30th in the NFL at 16.2 ppg
PHI 2004 (w/Owens)- 8th in the NFL at 24.1 ppg
PHI 2006 (w/o Owens)- 18th in the NFL at 19.4 ppg
To make it seem that Williams is even on the same level as Owens is ridiculous.
Great. That clearly means they're a better team. Philly's 04 squad would gang-rape the '08 Dallas team. No one gives a **** about pure talent if you don't put it together.

It is really hard to discuss something with a poster who simply makes things up in order to prove himself right. But let me start

1) I never brought up Roy v TO comparison. You did.

2) You then argue against some false straw-man you created in your mind to "prove" how great TO is.

3) You bring up meaningless stats to back up your point -- I point out real TEAM results to back up mine.

Really, I could care less how many rep points you have b/c frankly you are just being a fool.

You entire retort only proves your inability to read and seeming desire to engage in some baseless argument.

Fact is TO is so great he has been let go 3 times and right now he is 36 and not even Top 10 WR. What he was -- he will never be again. Father time too care of that. Will he go into Canton -- I dunno but I would never let him in.

So, keep staring at his shirtless poster all you want but I think we can be much better without him.

This Offense was horrid last year with TO and to now say if it sucks it is b/c TO is gone and Roy sucks ... just bizarre.

But anyway, I want lots of 20-17 wins. Not 35-10 with the usual flame out like last year.

If that means turning this team in a mentally tough run the god damn ball at all costs mentality ... fine.

if that means every week putting pressure on the D to not give up more than 14 points ... fine.

This team needs some pressure starting Sept 12 in order to make itself mentally tough for December and January.

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Originally Posted by herniateddisc

Actually I am on record as saying 1) we paid to much, 2) I only understood the move if the idea was to let TO go, 3) I like what he gives us in the redzone more-so than TO b/c of his ability to catch the ball in traffic or the fade -- which opens up things for RBs, and 4) I think he is talented so....

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2) You then argue against some false straw-man you created in your mind to "prove" how great TO is.

Yeah, stupid facts and ****.

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3) You bring up meaningless stats to back up your point -- I point out real TEAM results to back up mine.

Like when I posted about how both SF and PHI's offenses dropped dramatically after Owens left? You didn't answer my question. If a WR has so much impact on a team, why did the Lions suck so much with Williams? How many playoff wins does Williams have?

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You entire retort only proves your inability to read and seeming desire to engage in some baseless argument.

Right. I provide facts and lucid arguments to your replies and I somehow have an inability to read.

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Fact is TO is so great he has been let go 3 times and right now he is 36 and not even Top 10 WR.

Both times that T.O left, the offense went down and the team record went down. He's the #2 all-time TD leader for WRs. I'd say that is worthy of being called "great". Where does your boy Roy, he who offers so much more than Owens in the red zone, rank in the NFL? Top 30? Maybe.

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So, keep staring at his shirtless poster all you want but I think we can be much better without him.

Good one, dude. Really creative. I've never had a poster of any shirtless dude on my wall, so get a little creative.

TO could not get open either without a 4 second route .... so Roy is not AZ Hakim ... WTF?

He gets plenty open and fact is with his size he can get to balls in a crowd that TO would drop or alligator arm..

If Owens is so bad, why does he crush Williams in individual and team success? Could you explain it? He certainly didn't get open much last year. Maybe it's because of poor route-running. You know, the thing he got called out for on national TV.

Going off of your "Williams is better in the red zone", can you give me stats or facts that validate this argument? I've provided arguments as to why your statement is false. Please bring facts to the part, kthxbai.

Yeah, stupid facts and ****.Like when I posted about how both SF and PHI's offenses dropped dramatically after Owens left? You didn't answer my question. If a WR has so much impact on a team, why did the Lions suck so much with Williams? How many playoff wins does Williams have? Right. I provide facts and lucid arguments to your replies and I somehow have an inability to read. Both times that T.O left, the offense went down and the team record went down. He's the #2 all-time TD leader for WRs. I'd say that is worthy of being called "great". Where does your boy Roy, he who offers so much more than Owens in the red zone, rank in the NFL? Top 30? Maybe. Good one, dude. Really creative. I've never had a poster of any shirtless dude on my wall, so get a little creative.

You put all those links and the only comparison you have is me saying I like Williams in the red-zone moreso than TO?

That is the extent of my comparing them and you draw from that I think Williams is more accomplished than TO?

That is your reason for going off on a Pro TO rant?

You really are clueless.

You fabricate an fake position that does not exist in order to rant about your opinion.

That is called being mentally ill in the medical community.

I have not, nor will, get into a long discussion of TO v Roy b/c I hate them both. But all things equal I rather have Roy at 27 today than TO at 36 today. TO has never won **** and never will. He is giant steaming narcissistic turd who can't stand anyone other than him being the man. Enuff said, go back to TO fantasy world.

Classic, another TO fluffer who simply can't accept that TO is done and resorts to useless statistics (from 6 years ago) to prove than TO is better than another useless player who I don't like. Smarvelous ...... but yes, fluffer, I am willing to take less production from the WR spot in order to have a chance to win a SB.

Even a GM as dense as ours got it -- which is why TO was cut.

But let us see ... Pitt, NE, Giants to name a few teams who won SB without TO type WR numbers. Want me to go through the long list of teams who have won SB without getting TO production at the WR spot?????

But wait, TO is great!!!!!!!!!!!!! GOAT!!!!! Can we trade a first to Buffalo for him again?

I was pulling for him when BP was there. I felt he was manageable even if he was unhappy.

But, once the got the contract from Jerry he went back to the same old .... and frankly putting up with his nonsense and declining skills makes no sense.

It is a team sport moreso than any other. Guys like TO just don't get it or frankly are more interested in PR and a TV career.

IMHO, I don't think he cares about football. It is just another pay check where he can borrow time for something Hollywood. He has even said his first passion was basketball but football was a better way to pay bills for him.

When I see that and I compare it to guys like Michael Irvin who said "if he could have played football year round he never would have taken cocaine b/c football was his drugs" or a guy like Rice who was meticulous in his preparation -- even his uniform. Then you have TO and Ocho Stinko??

Burns, I think you need to pay better attention to camp...I dont mean that in a hostile way, just a suggestion, though. A great deal of focus has been on short/intermediate routes and 3 step drops and such. We've worked in a lot of quick slants and short outs. Problem with the slants is that Romo and Roy's timing isnt there yet and Roy has probably dropped more in practice than he's caught...even on good balls. :/

But our offense will surely have plenty of that this year...lets just hope our guys can hold onto the ball.

But anyway, it's certainly evident that we plan on shortening things up. Implimenting quicker/shorter dropbacks and higher percentage throws. With Garrett running things, we wont be a "power" running team....but, we should atleast see an increase in the RB load...but the dynamic wont be changed completely according to the staff. We're still going to pass, a whole lot...but, it should be much more efficient. Given that we can actually hold onto the football. Roy hasnt given me much faith in the practice sessions thus far. His hands are more natural than T.O.'s but they're not any better than his.

But, I'm starting to drink the team's koolaid as a whole...I think we can be real good.