Fast Talk Podcast #60: Rethinking the Science of Trainers

There are many cycling-centric podcasts available today, and Fast Talk from VeloNews is one of my favorites due to their laser focus on simply getting faster. Recently they produced an episode centered entirely on indoor training, with plenty of Zwift references mixed in.

Did the hosts do a good job of presenting a full picture of indoor training science? Comment below with your thoughts…

In episode 60 we’re discussing trainers… hey, for those out there who hate them, we get it, but stay tuned, as we’ll tell you why you shouldn’t completely ignore them. For those who love them, we’re going to tell you why riding outside every once in a while is a really good thing. For those in between, today’s episode will offer a wealth of knowledge on how to get the very most out of trainer time.

Now, one thing is certain: The days of staring at the basement wall while riding your clunky, loud trainer are behind us. Today’s smart trainers and online tools allow us to “game-ify” the experience and are making many re-consider how they feel about riding indoors, and importantly, the extent of the training benefits.

In this episode, we’ll talk about the science and experience of the trainer, including:

How riding on a trainer differs from riding on the road, including the experience, our interaction with the bike, the different inertia generated by the trainer, and its impact on our biomechanics.

What impact these differences have on our power and heart rate, and why we shouldn’t use the same numbers inside and outside.

We’ll discuss situations where it’s good to use a trainer—and when it may be even better than riding on the road, such as when we’re doing neuromuscular work.

Likewise, we’ll talk about situations where you might want to avoid the trainer. You might know already… a five-hour, mind-numbing ride on the trainer is a sign of incredible dedication. Don’t do it again.

The game-ification of trainers by tools like Zwift, Trainer Road, and Sufferfest, and how this is changing our perspective on trainers. It can be both good and bad.

When to use rollers rather than a trainer.

And, finally, we’ll talk about how much time to spend on the trainer, and alternatives even when there’s snow outside.

You’re going to get a lot of different opinions in this podcast. None of us will go so far as to call the trainer Satan — though at times we’ll come close — but you will hear a few guests give convincing evidence that the trainer has benefits you can’t get on the road. Ultimately, it’s going to be up to you to decide.

Our primary guest today is Ciaran O’Grady who is a new coach and sports scientist at Team Dimension Data. Ciaran is finishing up his Ph.D. at Kent University with Dr. James Hopker, who conducted some of the definitive research on the biomechanical differences between riding on a trainer and the road.

In addition, we’ll talk with:

Retired multi-time national cyclocross champion Tim Johnson. Having lived in the northeast for most of his life, Tim is very familiar with riding indoors and has a lot of good points to offer from two decades of experience.

Trevor also caught up with Jacob Fraser from Zwift and Kevin Poulton who coaches Matt Hayman and Caleb Ewan, and works with Team Katusha. Kevin used Zwift to coach Matt to his 2016 Paris-Roubaix win and since then has integrated significant trainer time into his athletes’ race preparation.

And with that, get your fan ready, dial in your Zwift avatar — make sure you enter your weight correctly in Zwift now, no cheating. Let’s make you fast!

About the VeloNews Fast Talk Podcast

The VeloNews Fast Talk podcast is your source for the best training advice and most compelling insight on what it takes to become a better cyclist. Listen in as VeloNews managing editor Chris Case and our resident physiologist and coach, Trevor Connor, discuss a range of topics, including sport science, training, physiology, technology, nutrition, and more.

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About The Author

Eric runs Zwift Insider in his spare time when he isn't on the bike or managing various business interests. He lives in Northern California with his beautiful wife, two kids and dog. Follow on Strava

2 Comments

Chader
on December 11, 2018 at 7:26 am

Warning: Long post to follow.

0:08:30, they correctly mention the presence of issues from the static nature of most trainers.
– I think they point to rollers as an option, which is great. However, they miss the obvious consideration of the Kinetic Rock and Roll that has been around for many years. Not to mention the expansion of motion in trainers from rocker plates.
– This is one example of how they seemingly do very little research for some topics. I also blame Kinetic for falling short on marketing and education about trainers and advantages of adding motion. It’s not for everyone, but it can be a big improvement for many riders.
– There… with my usually rocker sermon out of the way, we can continue :stuck_out_tongue:

0:10:30, they mention inertial load.
– It’s great, because with the expansion of smart controlled trainers and the associated use of ERG mode, there are reasons to experiment with gearing. We can have our cake and eat it too by using the flexibility of gearing and inertia options to meet our needs.
– That overall topic of gearing and flywheel inertia has shown up in this forum 3 times in as many days (as well as many in the past). It’s a sign that we need to continue education about ERG mode options and how best to take advantage of them.
– This basic point (using trainers and their inherent differences as advantages, rather than considering them pure disadvantages) is one that is missed routinely in this podcast.
– They seem to point to the negative aspects of indoor training and those rare exceptions as impending “DANGER” that gives a sour taste to the podcast throughout, even though they end with generally reasonable conclusions and recommendations.

0:15:30 & 0:21:00, they touch on differences from inside and outside riding, cooling and such. I don’t think they covered it with enough emphasis to help people recognize they can control a fair bit of their training environment.
– The simple focus on maximizing airflow and cooling can transform a training experience.

0:28:00, the first of many unwarranted “warnings about the dangers” associated with long rides inside. Good grief… where to start?
– Again, they miss the potential advantage of using a trainer vs riding outdoors. They correctly mention the fact that trainer rides can be much more controlled and steady when compared to outside.
– But instead of looking for the advantage in that difference, they use it as a negative and offer a warning about not doing the “dreaded long ride” inside.
– How about the fact that I can condense a 3-4 hour outside ride (with stops, starts, irregular roads, hills, etc.) into much more CONTROLLED and EFFICIENT workout of 2-3 hours in length?
– I know the specifics aren’t set as to overall efficiency comparison (inside > outside), but there is a notable opportunity to condense a ride to into a shorter overall time inside, while getting all of the desired training stimulus, in less time than is needed to do the same outside. Totally unscientific, but I think you can generally consider doing an inside ride of 80-90% the total time compared to outside ride time.
– Make full use of the absolute control afforded by the trainer instead of criticizing it. It’s a tool, as they correctly state, and understanding that tool for all it can and cannot do is important if you want to use it to the fullest.

0:44:20, The speaker (Tim?) says he has done 2-minute intervals max (maybe 10 mins he goes on with as a ‘maybe’), and up to a 3 hours max for inside, if he split it up. Tim goes on to say he only does varied work with nothing “steady”.
– Wow, great job getting people versed on indoor training. This theme of under-informed and under-experienced people commenting on this topic is almost laughable.

0:46:00, the main guest actually states that he as not used Zwift himself.
– What? Seriously? Great… let’s get this guy who is quite smart, but lacks experience to comment on the product/topic… nice :confused:
– Trevor pops in with his generally negative trainer comments, but then concedes to actually enjoying it. This attitude was all too prevalent in the past, but obviously still persists with the likes of the “true” cyclist.

0:50:00, Danger again, about too much intensity coming from excessive Zwift racing.
– I totally agree on this. People get hooked on the fun and challenge of the racing, but spend too much time chasing hard. It seems to lead to quick gains, but also stagnation if not reined in and set to some sort of planned schedule.

0:54:00, Another warning about not doing steady-state work at low intensity, like Z1 POL.
– They touch on the possible mental strain and saddle comfort as the main problems. However, they ignore the opportunity to easily address those issues.
– Mental strain can be covered well with great distractions via Zwift, movies, music, reading or anything else a person finds worthwhile. It is easy to adapt one or more of these entertainments into the “dreaded long ride inside”.
– Saddle comfort is easily addressed by adding in frequent standing breaks for one. Get up and stretch every 5-10 minutes. It’s something that happens outside frequently just from the nature of the ride and things like intersections and hills. We just need to think a bit more about it inside.
– Consider adding a rocker plate for comfort via the added motion.
– Then consider the fact that the long rides in TR have built in steps with subtle resistance changes for one thing. Add in the technique drills like endurance spins, single leg focus, and such as great ways to alter loading on the body and keep the ride interesting.
– Pretty easy and simple solutions to a “dangerous problem”.

0:56:00, Another trainer warning about “balance”. Trevor claims an issue about trainers leading to loss of balance. He points to a specific incident in a race, and the SPECULATES it’s from trainer-only use.
– Great journalistic approach there. No need to do any research and find out what REALLY happened. Let’s all assume we know because we have a bias. Solid research and reporting there, Trevor. :confused:

0:58:00, They touch on the idea of keeping to 5-6 hours per week for trainer sessions.
– Great idea. I wonder if anyone has ever considered that range of use?
– Of course, it’s about making smart and planned choices.
– I don’t remember if it’s in this segment, but Trevor again points to the 15+ hour per week example as the “problem” of indoor training. He ignores the fact that anyone doing that is almost certainly the EXCEPTION and not the rule of trainer users.
– I did 9-10 hours in my POL training, and that was OK, but way more than just about anyone I know would be willing to tolerate.
– Point being that trying to scare people away from trainer use by giving extreme examples like that is just silly and totally irresponsible. “Normal” people will not spend close to that 15 hour example on a trainer.

0:59:00, Kevin is the most educated and balanced voice on the cast. He should have been featured more. He correctly points to time management as one key advantage of the trainer.
– Ironically, Kevin only got this exposure because he and MH were forced to. But that experience broke through their old stereotypical opinions about trainers and inside training. Happily, he sees the benefits of using it as part of a balanced approach that also includes outside riding.
– It’s a point that should have been emphasized more and recognized for the great advantage that it offers.

They end with some fine conclusions, but wasted air on unnecessary warnings, excessive focus on “how bad it used to be” and wasting the opportunity to look at making the absolute best use of the tool. They touch on good things, but leave them quickly compared to the emphasis on the “bad” aspects of indoor training.

I actually like Fast Talk a lot, and have listened to a lot of their podcasts. I’m surprised this particular one is featured on this blog, as this episode of this podcast ranged from terrible to a joke, depending on how diplomatic you’d like to be. I haven’t been riding for 30 years, and I don’t have 27 years of pre-Zwift bad memories associated with trainers. The hosts got it wrong throughout this podcast, most notably by having no actual experience with what it’s like to ride a trainer in 2018. I get it. Chris and Trevor live in Boulder and their job allows them to ride whenever, so they can do outdoor rides with little to no traffic in off hours etc. Good for them, that’s awesome. Not everyone is so lucky, though–and Zwift is great.

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