stealing from the thread that ran forever recently: replace 8 with X, be safer and even cheesier with the marketing. agree its a bit of a marketing spin but i do find super long slings better than cordelette.

On 7/08/2008 deadbudgy wrote:>Is a sown sling really stronger than a tied one?

apparently the answer is yes, somewhere in the john long testing stuff as i recall.

... they have a screwgate on the 'powerpoint'.
It is up to whoever builds the belay to make a judgement call on the amount of redundancy required, for anticipated maximum loading and direction of same.

v+w+8 = marketing gimmick imo
It is just a simple cordalette made from tape.

>Out with the old chunky cordellete
I got around the chunkyness of a cordalette by using spectra.

On 7/08/2008 glebechris wrote:>In the picture on the websitge they don't use screwgates to the anchor.> What's the concensus here - I've always had it drilled into me to use>screwgates throughout the anchor.

I use clipgates at the protection end of the cordelette/sling/whatever pretty much always - they are plenty strong enough, and because they are away from you accidental unclipping is extremely unlikely. I usually slap in a screwgate at the belayer end, though could also be doubled clip-gates or independent clipgates (one on each sling if there are say two slings - to deal with crossloading issues typically). Or the belayer end is already taken care of cos I am tying in to the belay pro with the lead rope.

My philosophy is basically:

- biners which have backup (in the form of other pieces of pro) - clipgate ok

- biner which is 'mission critical' (this is invariably a powerpoint biner) - my beefiest screwgate (this is invariably a powerpoint biner) or often doubled clipgates with gates opposed

Why not just use screwgates throughout - cos they weigh a lot and are clunky, so not really a huge reason, but hey, every gram helps... (doesn't it :o). Oh, and they aren't redundant (say for the powerpoint - all eggs in one potentially defective basket, taking the paranoid pessimistic view here).

Not that my opinion matters much, however you may be more impressed by the thoughts of crazy alpinist Andy Kirkpatrick on this subject:

On 7/08/2008 deadbudgy wrote:>Is a sown sling really stronger than a tied one?

The waterknot or tape knot used for joining slings retains about 60% of the strength of the webbing, according to the spelean website (australian distrbutor od blue water ropes and slings among other things) slings joined by bar tacks are stronger than those joined by knots.

Aside from the body-end of the system, I usually carry 2 extra lightweight screwgates for use on belays. The Trango ones are only 41g apiece. Otherwise I might use two standard biners with gates reversed.

On 7/08/2008 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:>>povvolette>Lol.>Like the humour. You ought to patent that name!

yep it just says "money" doesn't it ;)

On 8/08/2008 Paul wrote:>The waterknot or tape knot used for joining slings retains about 60% of>the strength of the webbing, according to the spelean website (australian>distrbutor od blue water ropes and slings among other things) slings joined>by bar tacks are stronger than those joined by knots.

ok. but if you've got a 24kN sling clipped into a 14kN camalot or a 10kN nut it doesn't make a difference

Think about what it is that weakens the rope/sling at the knot ?
It's the bend in the rope/sling that is the weakest point ! and the point at which it breaks
So if you don't have a tight bend in it, say like a clove hitch that's wrapping around a big locker ........
Then you are holding the load but not greatly reducing the strength of the material being knotted.
Technically It will have some small reduction, but will be much stronger than other knotting options.
Bar tacks are very good, and will be the strongest option, but if the load is big enough that it fails even
the most basic of knots.... fig 8, overhand, whatever..... it will compress/elongate the harness on the
seconds waist, causing internal injuries that will in all likely hood KILL them, we are talking about
exceeding the ratings on most of the metal gear we use, its like the other thread that has every one
talking about Sliding X versus the standard Equalised system...... it's all so much BLAH BLAH BLAH
If there were ever a force big enough to do that damage to an equalised system......
then it does not bode well for the seconder, but that's if you ignore the fact that seconding on dynamic
ropes makes generating those forces impossible!!!!!

>You could just tie the ends of the webbing off with a clove hitch and>still get maximum strength !

I found that using a girth hitch with webbing works better. It lay flat on it's self, same reason we use a water knot (over hand knot) in webbing instead of 8's.

I know, "if it slips....." like bome prof says. If you generate that much load on an anchor, a little slip is not a bad thing. I just tie a short over hand loop and clip it to the same bineer for a back up stop point.