nah the live version of Isis wins! they do have a very different feel- the studio version is more of a travelogue or journey, the live version is more physical and visceral. particularly the version on Biograph which is mixed just right (a whirlwind of sound)

jadams501 wrote:I feel like I may be in the minority for preferring the studio Isis... it's like a mythological journey with Bob.

Nope - me too. It's an incredible track, and it was probably that song (and the album it's on) that really got me listening to Dylan really.

The epic storytelling and listen to that piano - Bob shoulda played keys on more of his records. Brilliant. Easily in my top 10 of his.

The live version? S'alright... it's too fast though, it's a bit bombastic, and how many guitar players do you need...? I consider the Desire version the real deal, the live thing is a bit throwaway IMO...

angelsighs wrote:nah the live version of Isis wins! they do have a very different feel- the studio version is more of a travelogue or journey, the live version is more physical and visceral. particularly the version on Biograph which is mixed just right (a whirlwind of sound)

i see them as two different songs. rolling thunder is a phe·nom·e·nal record where the songs are changed into these tangled beasts- when alan ginsberg first heard hard rain he 'wept' then on rtr he said the song was now a dance of joy. there is a freedom and slight bitterness in dylan's playing that isn't really on his records bar the john wesley-nashville era

as to isis i prefer the studio version but have been listening to the live version a lot, also mama you've been on my mind- i'm really enjoying the live version but songs like one more cup of coffee really work better on desire

“You're not Dostoevsky,' said the citizeness

'Well, who knows, who knows,' he replied.

'Dostoevsky's dead,' said the citizeness, but somehow not very confidently.

The singer-songwriter identifies Leonard Cohen and Bob Dylan as her only contemporaries, but also criticises Dylan for not being “musically gifted” and for alleged plagiarism.

“I like a lot of Bob’s songs,” says Mitchell. “Musically he’s not very gifted, he’s borrowed his voice from a lot of old hillbillies. He’s got a lot of borrowed things.”

Addressing her claim that Dylan is a “plagiarist”, Mitchell explains: “It’s not like I outed him. He stole all of his lines out of a Japanese hoodlum’s novel. There was a lawsuit impending, but it got dropped. He told me ‘I haven’t written a song in years.’ I said, ‘What’re you talking about? Who’s writing them, then?’ He came down to craft.”

She claims she's not at all disappointed in Dylan, though, praising him for inventing "a character to deliver his songs… Because you can do things with that character. It’s a mask of sorts… To sustain a gift for a long time is rare."

very sour grapes...

“You're not Dostoevsky,' said the citizeness

'Well, who knows, who knows,' he replied.

'Dostoevsky's dead,' said the citizeness, but somehow not very confidently.

I ask as it sounds like some minor point of an interview that's been blown up to create a bit of controversy.

To be honest though, there's nothing there that anyone can really disagree with - Bob's never denied how much he borrowed and stolen ("Love & Theft") of others, look at how often it's discussed in Chronicles. From a pure musicology viewpoint his basic song structures are neither complex or unique - most of them are straight up cribbed from the blues.

I should add though that most of the greatest rock 'n' roll ever made could be hit by these "allegations" too.

I ask as it sounds like some minor point of an interview that's been blown up to create a bit of controversy.

To be honest though, there's nothing there that anyone can really disagree with - Bob's never denied how much he borrowed and stolen ("Love & Theft") of others, look at how often it's discussed in Chronicles. From a pure musicology viewpoint his basic song structures are neither complex or unique - most of them are straight up cribbed from the blues.

I should add though that most of the greatest rock 'n' roll ever made could be hit by these "allegations" too.

it is from the transcript from a cbc interview. it was a horrible interview. she spent the whole time telling the interviewer how she was the greatest ever- a true original blah blah and having snipes at other artists. the dylan thing seems to come up in every interview i see with her "“Bob [Dylan] is not authentic at all. He’s a plagiarist, and his name and voice are fake. Everything about Bob is a deception. We are like night and day, he and I.” — Joni Mitchell, Los Angeles Times, April 22, 2010". it also came up in ian and sylvia's autobiography, calling him a 'fake' etc.

when you look at where dylan came from- the folk tradition then it is what everyone did. girl from the north country uses the melody from scarbrough fair, blowin' in the wind- no more acution block. the blues and folk that he borrowed from back then he still borrows from, even more obscure now- so why make a fuss about it 540 years later?

"“Well you have to understand that I’m not a melodist. My songs are either based on old Protestant hymns or Carter Family songs. What happens is, I’ll take a song and simply start playing it in my head. That’s the way I meditate.” “I wrote ‘Blowin’ in the Wind’ in 10 minutes, just put words to an old spiritual, probably something I learned from Carter Family records. ‘The Times They Are A-Changing’ is probably from an old Scottish folk Song.” “I’ll be playing Bob Nolan’s ‘Tumbling Tumbleweeds,’ for instance, in my head constantly, while I’m driving a car or talking to a person or sitting around or whatever. People will think they are talking to me and I’m talking back, but I’m not. I’m listening to the song in my head. At a certain point, some of the words will change and I’ll start writing a song.”…….Bob Dylan"

on google there is

"Just type “Bob Dylan plagiarism” into your friendly search engine, and a plethora of questionable circumstances pop up, enrobing the singer almost as completely as his years of reflexive media fawning have. Documented from his teenage start, when he submitted a hand written, thinly revised version of country star Hank Snow’s “Little Buddy” for publication as an original poem, to his 1963 pilferage of Irish poet Dominic Behan’s “Patriot Game”’s melody for the similarly slanted Dylan tune “With God on Our Side” to songwriter James Damiano’s ongoing multimillion dollar copyright infringement suit (alleging Dylan’s Grammy-nominated “Dignity” is nothing but an altered version of Damiano’s “Steel Guitars”) to the naked “Red Sails in the Sunset” melody heist for the song “Beyond The Horizon” on his Modern Times album, up through the recent Confessions of a Yakuza-Love & Theft plagiarism charges (Love & Theft? Calling Dr. Freud!), the Timrod controversy, even the numerous passages of Proust and Jack London that (re) appear in the text of Dylan’s autobiography, it’s a deep, dark thicket of thoroughly damning and apparently chronic bootlegging. Naturally, Dylan has said nothing publicly about any of these, but he already spent over three million dollars defending himself against one-time affiliate Damiano–the classic delay-to-destroy court room technique."

as i said before what he is doing now is what he has always been doing. taking the bare bones and fattening them out. when you hear people talking about him (from the coffee houses, joan b etc) they say that the great thing about him was his lyrics. the beatles ripped off some of his melodies (someone told him his 'new' song sounded like norwegian wood- he replied 'that song didn't exist before i played them this')

the whole 'the notes are there just not in the right order' thing is relevant. he reassembles and digs and mines furroughs and writes dylan songs. there may be references yes, but who's work doesn't have any? the fact that joni m keeos bringing it up, i think has more to do with dylan still being a star and her a 60s icon. (i've only heard one of her albums 'blue' and i found it dull- but the rest might be great- someone better informed would have to tell you/me) and, anyway as dylan responded in rolling stone magazine

"In folk and jazz, quotation is a rich and enriching tradition. It's true for everybody but me. There are different rules for me. As far as Henry Timrod is concerned, have you even heard of him? Who's been reading him lately? And who's pushed him to the forefront? If you think it's so easy to quote him and it can help your work, do it yourself and see how far you can get."
"These are the same people that tried to pin the name Judas on me. Judas, the most hated name in human history!
If you think you've been called a bad name, try to work your way out from under that. And for what? For playing an electric guitar? "It's called songwriting,It has to do with melody and rhythm, and then after that anything goes. You make everything yours. Wussies and pussies complain about that stuff,"

(i find dylan saying "Wussies and pussies" very amusing! )

and surely if you listen to an old song and go 'wow, dylan used this' you are more likely to dig out more of that stuff and widen your knowledge of music? you can hear references to other music in most pop, indie, etc music. if someone 'rips off' dylan by looking/sounding/writing like him then they are the 'new dylan' (hello bruce) if he does it then he is a 'terrible person'. these double standards are anoying. people go to more effort to find flaws in dylan's work rather than sitting back and going 'o what a great line' or 'hmm not really enjoying this album' as opposed picking bits here n there to complain about.

how many people criticised dylan (grail marcus anyone?) and then made a lot of money writing about him? in the 60s 'blowin' in the wind is a bunch of dumb rhetorical questions with no answers!' then 'yes! i knew him! here is a book about his great songs such as blowin' in the wind!'

yuh, i think i best leave the rant before i take up too much space!

ps- thanks for sorting out the quote box for my original post- i still haven't got the hang of these

“You're not Dostoevsky,' said the citizeness

'Well, who knows, who knows,' he replied.

'Dostoevsky's dead,' said the citizeness, but somehow not very confidently.

I'm a big Dylan fan but I think Joni has a point. if you do a bit of digging, apparently loads of his lyrics on the past few albums have been nicked from elsewhere. a lot of the song structures are just your basic blues formats too. although there is certainly an art of sorts to mixing it all together into a new and enjoyable form, it's still pretty disappointing on some level. Dylan is also great at creating a persona- it's part of his art. I don't think anyone can say they know the real Bob.

From what I've read it seems like the Hard Rain film / an extended album are planned within the next few installments of the Bootleg Series. I assume based on the Record Store Day single that an expanded Blood on the Tracks box is coming next, and then I doubt he'll want to stay in the 70s for the one after (so maybe Basement Tapes or -- my dream -- a box from the gospel period), but then I bet Hard Rain will be on offer.

Although it would be a shame to release Hard Rain without Renaldo and Clara, since it's about the same time period. On the other hand, maybe R & C is still too big an embarrassment to put into wide release. I think the best thing to do would be to issue a DVD/Blu-Ray box of all his film projects -- Don't Look Back, Eat The Document, Pat Garrett, Hard Rain, Renaldo & Clara, Hearts of Fire, and Masked & Anonymous -- so that criticism of the bad stuff will inevitably be outweighed by praise for the more iconic material.

I really like the MTV Unplugged album and associated outtakes. It deserves some attention for being Bob's most recent live album, and is much better than the reviews. The versions of Tombstone Blues and John Brown are my favorites from his career, while Shooting Star and Dignity are relative rarities that sound really good. If most of the rest tends towards the greatest hits, it's solid and makes sense for the mainstream audience that the show was aimed at. Some of the outtakes are even better -- the second take on I Want You is my favorite version of the song, and there are a bunch of other more obscure songs that surpass the chestnuts on the album.

Full disclosure: I also like the Dylan & The Dead and Hard Rain live albums. Bob toyed with releasing his early 90s Supper Club shows, which have much more interesting setlists, but what I've heard from them is pretty middling.

I don't even wanna SEE those ads haha.. Bob, what are you doing??
I see there is a release planned of the 30th Anniversary concert celebration. think I'll be giving this a miss.. bet it's a load of backslapping. also pretty scary that that it's been over 20 years since this!

yes, i have that performance on my phone! it was the john hammond special and after dylan got slated for not talking and not praising hammond. it was scarlet rivera's (however it is spelt-violinist) first performance and just before they started dylan changed the key!

But, Mitchell is clearly ambivalent about the impact Cohen had on her work. Michelle Mercer writes:

I pressed for her to say something kind about Leonard Cohen, because his influence is clear, and she now sees him as a plagiarist and has gone on the record as saying that many, many times.

I said, “C’mon, he’s his own poet on songs like ‘Hallelujah,’ Joni.” She said, “Yeah, yeah, I guess he’s his own poet; I’ve always loved some of his songs.” And then she couldn’t help taking a stab at him: she said, “He owns the phrase naked body, for example; it appears in every one of his songs.”

That’s just defensiveness on her part, because she feels as if she has not been recognized for what she did in the ’70s. She still has a wound, even though I think she has been recognized for the breadth of her contribution to music. Admitting the influence of (the men in her life) would’ve been relinquishing any creative input in her own work.21

maybe if i enjoyed her work i'd take her more seriously? i dunno...

“You're not Dostoevsky,' said the citizeness

'Well, who knows, who knows,' he replied.

'Dostoevsky's dead,' said the citizeness, but somehow not very confidently.

Thursday, 23 September 2010
Oxnard 'Time Out Of Mind' sessions
As discussed in Clinton Heylin's 'Still On the Road'....seems like there was an earlier version of the album recorded before the January 1997 sessions at Criteria.

September 1996 Oxnard, CA seems to have produced initial recordings of the following, none of which are on the released album:

Dirt Road Blues

Can't Wait

Mississippi

Highlands

All I Ever Loved Is You

Dreamin' Of You

Million Miles

Not Dark Yet

Red River Shore

Standing In The Doorway

Only 2 of these: the Bootleg Series 8, disc 3 version of 'Mississippi' with the different lyrics, and 'Can't Wait' from disc 1 are from the Oxnard TOOM.

All the others remain unheard.

aparently it is 26 muns and has a verse (like the waitress scence) but in a different town

TIME OUT OF MIND (1997)
Bob reconvened with Daniel Lanois for album – or should that be round – two. Their collaboration and conflict finds Dylan seeing out the 20th Century with one of his greatest, deepest albums.

Daniel Lanois, producer: “We got together in New York. He just had a stack of lyrics he read me and said: ‘What do you think, Daniel, do we have a record?’ I could hear a record even though I hadn’t heard a note. A lot of philosophical exchanges took place then, about what kind of sound Bob loved.”

Mark Howard, engineer: “Daniel and I shared a workshop in Oxnard, California. Dylan was living in Point Dume. He’d drive up every day, and he’d tune into this radio station he could only get at one point between Point Dume and Oxnard, all these old blues recordings, Little Walter, guys like that. He’d ask, ‘Why do those records sound so great? Can I have that?’ At the same time, Dylan was very interested in Beck. ‘These Beck records are sounding pretty cool.’ So we’d talk about them being loop-based, and playing on top of them. We brought in Tony Mangurian, who’s a hip-hop drummer, his whole thing is computer-based, he loops stuff and builds on top of it. The original idea was we’d do all this cut-and-paste.”

Lanois: “I listened to a lot of old records Bob recommended – Charley Patton, dusty old rock’n’roll, blues. Tony and I played along to those, then I built loops of what we did, and then abandoned these sources; a hip-hop technique. I brought those loops to Bob, and we built demos around them.”

Howard: “We’re all ready to do computer-based stuff, and one day Bob comes in, sits at the piano, and plays this song, ‘Can’t Wait’. And this is a gospel version. Tony starts playing this real sexy groove with him, and Bob is hammering out this gospel piano and really singing. The hair on my arms went up. It was stunning. Luckily, I was recording. We were thinking, if this is going to be anything like this, this record is going to be unbelievable. That’s how it started to drift away from the computer-based thing. Then, just as we’re all set to make the record in Oxnard, Bob says, ‘I can’t work this close to home. I wanna do it in Miami.’ The furthest point away, right? So I threw most of the gear in the truck and I drove from LA to Miami to set up at the Criteria studio.”

David Kemper, drummer: “When we started recording, I remember Bob wouldn’t sing at first, which was strange. And Dan was saying, ‘Don’t play anything you’ve ever played before.’ We cut a version of ‘Mississippi’ and Bob sang, and it sounded good. Then I got a call from Dan, saying, ‘You can’t play pedestrian, we gotta play strange.’ But we got one song, ‘Cold Irons Bound’. The next day I had to leave, and they brought in a whole other crew. That was the end of my involvement. I remember Daniel wasn’t happy [with ‘Cold Irons Bound’]. It was one of his guitar-breaking incidents. He said to Tony [Garnier, bassist] and I: ‘The world doesn’t want another two-note melody from Bob.’ And he smashed a guitar.”

Howard: “There would come a point where there were like 15 people playing in that room at Criteria at the same time. Three drummers, five guitar players, pedal steel, organ, piano… Dan had put together a band, but then Dylan had put out the call for these people like Jim Keltner, Jim Dickinson, Augie Meyers, Duke Robillard, Cindy Cashdollar. Dylan brought in all these Nashville people. I think that made Dan a little mental, all these Nashville strummers.”

Lanois: “I wanted people to respond to the vocal and not play across the vocal, so when the singer sings, you keep quiet. And if you want to respond to the singing, then you should have a signature or a melody and not ramblings. The rambling thing belongs to an old Nashville sound, where people pick a lot. It becomes like a mosquito in the room, like, ‘Would you just stop playing for a minute?’ I want to hear the singer.”

Jim Dickinson, pianist: “Bob had – for want of a better word – an orchestral concept: this thing of too many instruments in the room. There was chordal tension. It’s hard to describe. Dylan was standing singing four feet from the microphone, with no earphones on. He was listening to the sound in the room. Which is the sound that did not go on the record. I truly never saw anything like it. He was in unspoken control of 23 people. And this may seem a small thing, but I was impressed that he had hand-written lyric sheets. He said he’d been working on some of the songs five or six years. He’d lean over this steamer chest and work on his lyrics. With a pencil – because he was erasing stuff. That really touched me to see that.”

Jim Keltner, drummer: “Bob had me and a lot of other guys called specifically. He was thinking about the sound. I think that’s probably the best way to do it: you can either let somebody else get the musicians for you, and then try to figure out how to tell them to do it; or you get the musicians yourself you think can pull off your ideas.”

Augie Meyers, organist: “Bob’s a genius in the studio. He’s a great piano player; a lot of people don’t know that. It amazed me the way he could instantly change keys, hit all the chord changes. No matter what key he went into, he didn’t have to search for the chord.”

Howard: “The way Bob works is, because he hasn’t figured out the song, each take is in a different key. And for the musicians, suddenly you have to change the whole map of the chords. A lot of people can’t just do that straight off. But Dylan kind of expects you to. We’d listen in the control room, though, and it was all over the place – people hitting the wrong note. Dan is saying, ‘Man, this is so chunky.’ Jim Keltner goes: ‘West Coast chunky, or East Coast chunky?’ Things were sort of crazy.”

Dickinson: “Sometimes, when it was all going on, it would be chaotic, for an hour or more. But then there would be this period of clarity, just five or eight minutes of absolute clarity, where everybody knew we were getting it. It was unlike any session I’ve ever been on. Because everybody could feel the potential. In the case of these outtakes that are about to come out, ‘Mississippi’ and ‘Girl From The Red River Shore’ [tracklisted simply as ‘Red River Shore’ on Tell Tale Signs] represented the most conflict in the studio between Dylan and Lanois.”

Keltner: “I have a memory of ‘Red River Shore’ as being just beautiful. I could feel everybody in the room feeling that song. I was disappointed it wasn’t on the album.”

Dickinson: “‘Girl From The Red River Shore’ I personally felt was the best thing we recorded. But as we walked in to hear the playback, Dylan was in front of me, and he said, ‘Well, we’ve done everything on that one except call the symphony orchestra.’ Which indicated to me they’d tried to cut it before. If it had been my session, I would have got on the phone at that point and called the fucking symphony orchestra. But the cut was amazing. You couldn’t even identify what instruments were playing what parts. It sounded like ghost instruments. Then there was a cut of ‘Mississippi’ that was very swampy, a real kind of early ’70s feeling that Lanois really liked. It just wasn’t the direction Dylan wanted to go. The two of them really got into it over that one.”

Meyers: “Bob asked me a couple of questions one time. ‘How would you do this song if you and Doug Sahm did it?’ So I told him. Daniel said, ‘Why are you answering the questions? I’m the producer.’ I just said, ‘Hey, Bob asked me a question, so I’m gonna answer it.’”

Howard: “There was a situation where Bob wouldn’t talk to Dan for a while. Dan would walk in and say, ‘Wow, this is sounding great!’ And Bob would turn to me and say, ‘Did you hear something?’ And I’m sitting there, like ‘Oh, no…’ He was kind of playing, but it was intense.”

Keltner: “There was this dynamic between Bob and Daniel. This may have appeared to some people to be Bob abusing Daniel, but I’d say it was more that he was using Daniel to bounce off. Daniel allowed Bob to know what it was he wanted – and what he didn’t want. I think the reason the recording ended up really beautiful was exactly because of this dynamic. Bob got what he wanted, but he got it through a very intense process.”

Dickinson: “There is for sure something about the recording process that makes Dylan uncomfortable. I think it might have something to do with his history. I think, maybe, some of his stuff he’s been dissatisfied with, and has felt manipulated. I mean, it’s curious to even say the words: that someone could manipulate Bob Dylan. But I saw them try during those sessions. I mean, management would talk to him about the radio. Can you imagine talking to Bob Dylan about getting on the fucking radio? When we finished ‘Highlands’, one of the managers came out, and he said, ‘Well, Bob, have you got a short version of that song?’ Dylan said: ‘That was the short version.’”

Howard: “In terms of the conflict people have mentioned, what those guys were witnessing was – earlier we were talking about that first version of ‘Can’t Wait’ that was so haunting. Dan wanted to get back to that. We’d recorded three other versions. But Dylan wouldn’t go back to the piano, and Dan would say, ‘Y’know, those are good takes, but I just gotta get that version.’ But Dylan wasn’t interested. Dan, for a few days, had this technique where, before Dylan would come in, he’d work up the song himself. Dan would sing it, ‘I can’t wait…’ doing the Dylan voice. And Dylan would walk in to this, and he’d be like, ‘What’s going on here?’ And then Dylan would just shut down. ‘Nah, I’m not recording nothing till you figure this out.’”

Lanois: “Let’s put it this way. When people reach a certain stature, there’s a lot of confidence built around that person, and consequently there’s a lot of people around that think that that person must be right all the time. Unfortunately, it’s not my job to be one of those people.”

Howard: “One of the arguments was this thing about Bob never doing a song the same way twice. Bob pulled Tony Garnier, his regular bass player, into the room with Dan. He says, ‘Tony, have I ever played any song twice exactly the same?’ Tony says, ‘No, Bob, no.’ Bob says, ‘See? I don’t do that.’ And Dan’s like, ‘Yeah, but that song “Can’t Wait”…’ Bob’s like, ‘I did it that way, and I’m never doing it that way again.’ As the end of the session rolled around, though, after recording, we ended up finishing the record back in Oxnard, and by that point, Dan and Dylan were talking again. That’s where all Bob’s storytelling was done, during mixing. He’d talk for two hours at a stretch.”

“You're not Dostoevsky,' said the citizeness

'Well, who knows, who knows,' he replied.

'Dostoevsky's dead,' said the citizeness, but somehow not very confidently.

The Dr wrote:"Can you imagine talking to Bob Dylan about getting on the fucking radio? When we finished ‘Highlands’, one of the managers came out, and he said, ‘Well, Bob, have you got a short version of that song?’

A working version of Bob Dylan's popular song, in the musician's own handwriting, went to a longtime fan, setting a global high for a popular music manuscript.

A draft of one of the most popular songs of all time, Bob Dylan's "Like a Rolling Stone," sold on Tuesday for $2 million, which the auction house called a world record for a popular music manuscript.

A working draft of the finished song in Dylan's own handwriting went to an unidentified bidder at Sotheby's. The selling price, $2.045 million, included a buyer's premium.

The manuscript is "the only known surviving draft of the final lyrics for this transformative rock anthem," Sotheby's said.

The draft is written in pencil on four sheets of hotel letterhead stationery with revisions, additions, notes and doodles: a hat, a bird, an animal with antlers. The stationery comes from the Roger Smith Hotel in Washington, D.C.

Dylan was 24 when he recorded the song in 1965 about a debutante who becomes a loner when she's cast from upper-class social circles.

"How does it feel To be on your own" it says in his handwriting. "No direction home Like a complete unknown Like a rolling stone."

Scrawls seem to reflect the artist's experimentation with rhymes.

The name "Al Capone" is scrawled in the margin, with a line leading to the lyrics, "Like a complete unknown."

Another note says: "... dry vermouth, you'll tell the truth ..."

Sotheby's described the seller as a longtime fan from California "who met his hero in a non-rock context and bought directly from Dylan." He was not identified.

The manuscript was offered as part of Sotheby's rock and pop music sale.

In 2010, John Lennon's handwritten lyrics for "A Day in the Life," the final track on the Beatles' classic 1967 album Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band, sold for $1.2 million, the record for such a sale.

“You're not Dostoevsky,' said the citizeness

'Well, who knows, who knows,' he replied.

'Dostoevsky's dead,' said the citizeness, but somehow not very confidently.

Got a copy of Time Out Of Mind lp on a Music On Vinyl reissue today.
I love this label. They do an incredible job and their pressing costs a fraction of what the original goes for.
I once had the original but couldn't justify keeping it because of the value.
Wise decision in retrospect.

listened to Time Out Of Mind myself over the weekend. just reaffirmed that it may well be my favourite Dylan album of them all. even the more formulaic bluesy rockers are elevated by that gorgeous swampy sound from Lanois. and the lyrics are so amazing, so fatalistic, and unusually for Dylan, quite moving.
then you think of the songs from the same sessions that are similarly some of his greatest later work- Mississipi, Red River Shore..
Highlands is great but the verses where he's talking to the waitress are a bit nuts!

angelsighs wrote:listened to Time Out Of Mind myself over the weekend. just reaffirmed that it may well be my favourite Dylan album of them all. even the more formulaic bluesy rockers are elevated by that gorgeous swampy sound from Lanois. and the lyrics are so amazing, so fatalistic, and unusually for Dylan, quite moving.

In 1975 another Dylan emerged from the shadows. By another I mean that another side was brought to the fore. Popular theories of Dylan’s reinvention often overlook that every aspect of each of his albums lies in every album- from the gospel references in the 60s to the born-again gospel of the 80s to the revelation filled Tempest in the 10s- and each ‘reinvention’ is simply another side being shown. Dylan, now in his thirties, with more life experience or less life experience, depending on your perspective, was becoming a man. The world-weary affected croon of Bob Dylan (debut album mostly of covers) was now a genuine, more subtle and more affecting world-weary croon. His songs drew reference points to things that he had spoken of before- love, religion, politics et al, but now his perspective had changed.

The beauty in his love songs from the 60s was a genuine puppy love, even the bitterness of don’t think twice and it’s all over now baby blue, was one of a man who had understood such things but had not comprehended the greater meaning behind it all. Whilst you could argue that don’t think twice and idiot wind are the same song- an attack on a former love- both visceral and tender- sometimes in the same line- the depth of feeling in the lyric and vocal of idiot wind is one that had never been on a Dylan album before. Even the snarl of like a rolling stone or the cynical mocking of blonde on blonde failed to reach the depths of blood on the tracks. What had changed? Dylan now had experience. Looking at the wreckage of his marriage, his disillusionment with what it meant to be bob Dylan, Dylan could now speak about it from a personal standpoint- be it autobiographical or not (only Dylan knows)- plus he was now aided with a greater weapons- literature and art. Having been familiar with many of the great writers (Nietzsche, Dostoyevsky etc) before, Mrs Dylan, with her esoteric interests had turned him onto I ching, tarot cards (which would go on to colour Desire and Street-Legal), plus she had brought to him the great unrequited love poems of Dante and Petrarch. Reading these two one cannot downplay their significance on the writing nor can one downplay Dylan’s recent art classes where he had learnt that perspective, space and time were not constants and could be manipulated with everything happening at once but not in any place ‘I followed you…hounded by your memory’.

One of the remarkable things about blood on the tracks is the depth and breadth of emotion. Heartbreak and ecstasy, hate and love, blame and self-blame, determination and resignation are just eight aspects of the song shelter from the storm, a song where Dylan plays both the Christ-like figure but also speaks of his love as being godlike making each simultaneously holy and profane. The language is also deceptively simple. The great sweeping mind twisting poetry of the early 60s and the simplification of the late 60s and early 70s come together to shape songs profound and banal- understated whilst high on melodrama. ‘Just to think that it all began on a long-forgotten morn…I bargained for salvation an’ they (she on the album) gave me a lethal dose’.

It is on this album where all of the threads of the previous albums come together to create a tapestry of human heights and frailty and how the two coincide as all truth is by nature contradiction, listening to blood on the tracks one cannot doubt the sincerity of the experience. Whilst blood on the tapes is rawer and possibly more ‘revealing’ the ‘poppy’ accompaniment gives the songs that kick- it forces them upon the listener- sometimes seducing with a little blues lick or a catchy melody. One of the most devastating tracks on the album is the last track which appears to be a nursery rhyme, actually is an admission of the inconsequential nature of relationships and life whilst saying that all meaning can be found in love. The album can be seen as a love letter to Eros and all his guises for no matter the depths of pain, as with Goethe’s spleen, just one human face can make the writer fall in love again, the fine line between the two and how the writer prefers love but just finds himself forced to the other side- a position that he seems incapable to hanging onto as to hate seems against his very nature

The album continues the allegorical themes of the previous albums, not only with the biblical imagery but also with the western motive. Not only does the album do away with time and space but it also tells narratives in a succinct nature so that one is always aware of what is going on but unsure as to when or where. The changing of the pronouns, rendering them irrelevant, gives a universal feel to the album for the album becomes the album of the listener, one can supplement one’s self into any role in the album- jack of hearts-lily-big Jim, rosemary or whoever. The rollicking western of lily, rosemary and the jack of hearts, enhanced by the musical accompaniment but diminished lyrically from the original, shows the irrelevancy of each action but the significance of each nuance. It is an album where the divine lies in the details and the entire human experience is condensed into just under 52 minutes.

Whether it is Dylan’s best album is down to personal perception. I personally believe that Highway 61 is his best but in terms of an artist hitting his peak and bringing together the threads of his past to push on to the future one would be hard pressed to find a greater bob Dylan record.

“You're not Dostoevsky,' said the citizeness

'Well, who knows, who knows,' he replied.

'Dostoevsky's dead,' said the citizeness, but somehow not very confidently.

I would say the great tracks are:-
Tangled Up In Blue
You're a Big Girl Now
Idiot Wind
If You See Her, Say Hello

and the lesser tracks are:-
Simple Twist of Fate
You're Gonna Make Me Lonesome
Lilly
Shelter From The Storm
Buckets of Rain

in my opinion there's some bluesy filler, a long song that just doesn't fit, and some other scrappy songs that just don't seem all that momentous. I would agree that the first half of the album is the stronger. I think maybe people just remember the great songs that are on there. Idiot Wind is just fantastically bitter.and Tangled really paints a picture in my mind and also has some amusing lines. I would guess that the only truly controversial one on that list is Simple Twist of Fate which some people tend to love.

I would agree that Desire is the superior album- maybe not having as much a concept or the hook of the 'breakup album' but I love it. I might try and post a bit more indepth about it when I have time.
I like Street Legal too!

i adore lily- nice little cowboy parable set to a jaunty tune. the tapes version is good but the tracks album is amazing. meet me in the morning is dull in my opinion. desire is (mostly) hit and miss- most of the tracks are great but i cannot stand joey or romance in durango. i concur, street legal is a good album too as is the oft overlooked planet waves

“You're not Dostoevsky,' said the citizeness

'Well, who knows, who knows,' he replied.

'Dostoevsky's dead,' said the citizeness, but somehow not very confidently.

But I think in Dylan's latter era he's been at his best - strictly my opinion - when he's just doing versions of blues songs. On the last few albums in particular - 'Early Roman Kings', 'Rollin' & Tumblin'...

But I think in Dylan's latter era he's been at his best - strictly my opinion - when he's just doing versions of blues songs. On the last few albums in particular - 'Early Roman Kings', 'Rollin' & Tumblin'...

i actually prefer this version

Meet Me In The Morning
Previously unreleased take (1974), from the B-side of "Duquesne Whistle". 7'' Single 2012.

the most amusing quote i have read on him was 'dylan changed music then tried to pretend that he hadn't' ie. his records generally have their roots in music pre-dylan

ps sandwiched between lilly and lonsesome when you go i think it looses something so 'dull' as maybe out of sequence?

“You're not Dostoevsky,' said the citizeness

'Well, who knows, who knows,' he replied.

'Dostoevsky's dead,' said the citizeness, but somehow not very confidently.

Five Swedish scientists have confessed that they have been quoting Bob Dylan lyrics in research articles and are running a wager on who can squeeze the most in before retirement.

The game started seventeen years ago when two Professors from the Karolinska Institute in Stockholm, John Jundberg and Eddie Weitzberg, wrote a piece about gas passing through intestines, with the title "Nitric Oxide and inflammation: The answer is blowing in the wind".

The latter part of the title is from one of Dylan's most famous tracks.

"We both really liked Bob Dylan and we thought the quotes really fitted nicely with what we were trying to achieve with the title," Professor Weitzberg told The Local.

The pair decided to stick to the theme and went on to splice other lyrics into their work, including one entitled "The times they are a-changing".

"We're not talking about scientific papers - we could have got in trouble for that - but rather articles we have written about research by others, book introductions, editorials and things like that," said Weitzberg.

A few years later a librarian spotted an article written by two other medical professors working at the same university and connected the foursome.

The title was "Blood on the tracks: a simple twist of fate". It incorporated the name of both a Bob Dylan album and one of his tracks.

This led Professors Junberg and Weitzberg to invite their colleagues to take the idea to the next level and they started competing to see who could get the most Bob Dylan lyrics into their articles before retirement.

The winner gets lunch in a restaurant in Solna, just north of Stockholm, where their university is based.

One other Professor has joined the contest.

Kenneth Chien, Professor of Cardiovascular Research has also been quoting his idol for years and his fellow scientists recently got wind of his articles which include: "Tangled up in blue: Molecular cardiology in the postmolecular era".

"We really are not the only ones who try to be smart and catchy in our headlines," insisted Professor Weitzberg.

"If you read other scientific articles you'll find people trying to be clever in different ways".

Asked about the attention his wordplay is starting to gather in Sweden, The Local was sure to ask him "how does it feel?".

"I would much rather become famous for my scientific work than for my Bob Dylan quotes," laughed Weitzberg.

"But yes, I am enjoying this!"

“You're not Dostoevsky,' said the citizeness

'Well, who knows, who knows,' he replied.

'Dostoevsky's dead,' said the citizeness, but somehow not very confidently.

sorry, listened to Meet Me In The Morning after reading this thread and it's still dull. Idiot Wind however still blows me away!

Desire is the more consistent album I reckon, perhaps without the peaks of BOOT. I just love the sound of Desire- the violin and Emmylou's backing vocals threading through it, the superb rhythm section with the bass playing popping out melodically all the time. and Dylan is in fine voice- his big keening 70s voice. it really seems like a slightly ragged band playing in a room.
the only thing it's lacking is the personal touch of BOOT. that album has the overraching narrative that it's Dylan pouring his heart out over his divorce (which I think is kind of exaggerated, but that's a separate story). Desire is more about scene-setting, different characters and situations. it's kind of a travelogue.

angelsighs wrote:sorry, listened to Meet Me In The Morning after reading this thread and it's still dull. Idiot Wind however still blows me away!

Desire is the more consistent album I reckon, perhaps without the peaks of BOOT. I just love the sound of Desire- the violin and Emmylou's backing vocals threading through it, the superb rhythm section with the bass playing popping out melodically all the time. and Dylan is in fine voice- his big keening 70s voice. it really seems like a slightly ragged band playing in a room.
the only thing it's lacking is the personal touch of BOOT. that album has the overraching narrative that it's Dylan pouring his heart out over his divorce (which I think is kind of exaggerated, but that's a separate story). Desire is more about scene-setting, different characters and situations. it's kind of a travelogue.

how are people finding Tempest a couple of years down the line?

i think desire is weaker- the strongest two songs 'cup of coffee' and 'sara' are the only two that he wrote alone. aparently (according to d) levy wrote all of the lyrics for joey (could explain how crass it is) and although i love the narrative of isis (one of my favourute dylan songs) and the fun of mozambique, i think you may have (angelsighs) hit the nail on the head in saying bott is a deeply personal album, not only to d but to the listener. i went through a messy breakup recently (just about over it) and cannot stop listening to bott

as for tempest- i listened to it a lot- saw him live playing most of the album and have been listening to it ever since. i still think it is (bar roll on john- i have no interest in lennon or the beatles) a brilliant album- even better, maybe, than modern times as the album of post 9/11 (love and theft came out 21st sept 2001)

what are your thoughts mr angelsighs?

“You're not Dostoevsky,' said the citizeness

'Well, who knows, who knows,' he replied.

'Dostoevsky's dead,' said the citizeness, but somehow not very confidently.

angelsighs wrote:
Desire is the more consistent album I reckon, perhaps without the peaks of BOOT. I just love the sound of Desire- the violin and Emmylou's backing vocals threading through it, the superb rhythm section with the bass playing popping out melodically all the time. and Dylan is in fine voice- his big keening 70s voice. it really seems like a slightly ragged band playing in a room.
the only thing it's lacking is the personal touch of BOOT. that album has the overraching narrative that it's Dylan pouring his heart out over his divorce (which I think is kind of exaggerated, but that's a separate story). Desire is more about scene-setting, different characters and situations. it's kind of a travelogue.

how are people finding Tempest a couple of years down the line?

Agreed - nicely put! Desire: yep, it's the overall sound of that record isn't it - wild and untamed. I like that band as much as any he played with. I know live it went a bit Wall of Sound style but certainly in the studio it's streamlined and raw... and second that amazing violin playing by Scarlett Riviera.

Plus it has 'Isis' on it which is one of his best ever songs.

The Dr wrote:...as for tempest- i listened to it a lot- saw him live playing most of the album and have been listening to it ever since. i still think it is (bar roll on john- i have no interest in lennon or the beatles) a brilliant album- even better, maybe, than modern times as the album of post 9/11 (love and theft came out 21st sept 2001)

Really? I don't think of Modern Times in that regard at all. It's all set and setting isn't it - that album for me sums up a pretty torrid and slightly unhinged time of my life (see also Riot City Blues) and therefore I have a huge amount of love for that record simply due to the endless wild memories attached to it. It feels like a lifetime ago but that album can work like a time machine for me. I emphasise it's all positives feeling I get from that album - at it's best it's just loose rolling blues. 'Rolling & Tumbling' is fucking incredible (even better 2-3% pitched up) and for me the best ever version of that particular song.

I do wonder if anyone else hears it this way though. Guess that what makes it all interesting...

Tempest. Not listened to it really enough but bar one song - another blues - it didn't hit me. The OTT reviews were entertaining enough though. Deserves another spin at some point.

In my experience Time Out Of Mind is a far better breakup album than Blood On The Tracks.

My opinion on Tempest hasn't really changed since it came out- it's another fine album continuing his late purple patch, but it does have some flaws. It needs some editing- the title track is far too long and repetitive, and I don't really care for Roll On John much either so I tend to switch the album off early. Reviewers who compared it to Time Out Of Mind are way off- it may have a bit more of that ghostly and spooky feel on some tracks, but i just don't find it as convincing overall.
Like I said though, it's still a great album, particularly the first half (I would suggest you give it another go Bza- only Early Roman Kings is really a stereotypical blues track). once again Dylan is digging deep into pre-war American music and chucking it all in the melting pot. I love the little prelude to Duquenue Whistle- you can almost hear it coming straight out of a transistor radio in the 1930s

I think Dylan is having a great late period (i.e. '97 onwards). I even enjoy Together Through Life a lot- it's not the most momentous of his albums but it's fun and produced wonderfully (which was a breath of fresh air after the horribly compressed Modern Times), the sound of a fine roots-rock band playing away.

I think Dylan is having a great late period (i.e. '97 onwards). Modern Times is good but I must say it didn't hit me in any strong way- Love & Theft is better.

BzaInSpace wrote:
Really? I don't think of Modern Times in that regard at all. It's all set and setting isn't it - that album for me sums up a pretty torrid and slightly unhinged time of my life (see also Riot City Blues) and therefore I have a huge amount of love for that record simply due to the endless wild memories attached to it. It feels like a lifetime ago but that album can work like a time machine for me. I emphasise it's all positives feeling I get from that album - at it's best it's just loose rolling blues. 'Rolling & Tumbling' is fucking incredible (even better 2-3% pitched up) and for me the best ever version of that particular song.

I do wonder if anyone else hears it this way though. Guess that what makes it all interesting...

Tempest. Not listened to it really enough but bar one song - another blues - it didn't hit me. The OTT reviews were entertaining enough though. Deserves another spin at some point.

modern times is a great album and i didn't think this era d would top it. it is a very sweet album (mostly), very sentimental. i would say it's a good album to listen to at night (if you know what i mean) but with tempset it starts with a deceptively jaunty meoldy that goes into a song about trains (also deceptive as the overall mofit of the album is dark, dark, darkness), then is is a very simple love song that took me a while to appreciate it's delicateness. narrow way is a brilliant blues with great lyrics that grabs me more than, say, 'Rolling & Tumbling' does- i never really got into dylan's version of that. long and wasted years i don't really like bu maybe it is too close to the bone for me right now. who knows? pay in blood is a wonderful growling attack on the concieted 'i'll give you justice, i'll fatten your purse, show me your moral virtue first...i pay in blood, but not my own' . scarlet town is a beautiful painting of a town- the good and bad (it has attention to detail such as 'the streets have names you can't pronounce). early roman kings brings the early roman kings into the 21st C in a delightful satire about how people are the same now as then, tin angel is a great folk song (think gypsy davey by woody) with a brillant narrative. this is dylan 'back' writng great narratives, this is what the other albums have not really had on, since prehaps highlands. tempest (sorry AS!) is a masterpiece of whimsy and seriousness

The captain, barely breathing
Kneeling at the wheel
Above him and beneath him
Fifty thousand tons of steel

He looked over at his compass
And he gazed into its face
Needle pointing downward
He knew he'd lost the race

it is a story song, like that say black diamond bay on desire , where everything happens but nothing seems to matter. it is, in my opnion, too short, i could listen all day. i know baz listens more to the music than words but on both counts i'd place tempest above modern times (modern times is still one of my favourite albums and workingman blues #2 i can't get enough of). if modern times is night time listening then tepest is dark night of the soul listening

“You're not Dostoevsky,' said the citizeness

'Well, who knows, who knows,' he replied.

'Dostoevsky's dead,' said the citizeness, but somehow not very confidently.

nah TooM isn't a break-up album. it's the old man & the sea album. BotT is the break-up album, drenched in loss of his marriage.

TooM is more a reflection of a life fading out. he was sick prior to that album being made, wasn't he?
he's detached & removed from the emotions of BotT, almost wistful & mournful that he can't even feel or have a part of that kind of life (wouldn't know the difference tween a real blonde and a fake - i'd trade places with any of 'em in a minute if i could).

the loss in TooM is actually more profound than the relatively straightforward pain of BotT - at least he can pinpoint where it comes from there, whereas TooM it's already lost in the ether w/no reference but himself. it's somehow even lonelier as he hasn't even anyone left to blame/rail against except that which is already past. in BotT he's still living it, however angry/painful it is.

the existentialism, sickness & death that hang over TooM make it a very different proposition for me. & it's kinda scary i relate to it so much. it's like, what have i got to look forward, another 40/50years of feeling like this? as least w/BooT, however long it lasts it's still just a passing feeling. TooM is like the soundtrack of life! it's not dark yet..

btw, & apropos of nothing, Things have Changed = what a tune. one of my favourites of his. special mention to the dodgy acting/burger bite he does in the promo too.
fun film too that one. wonderboys wasn't it? w/spiderman & michael douglas?

He was sick after TOOM was made I think. leading to journalists drawing parallels and saying the songs were somehow prophetic (also happened to Songs in A&E). makes a neat story I guess.
I get what you mean Jack, all very eloquently put, and I agree that the heartache on TOOM is mixed in with the world-weariness and the spectre of death. but the heartache is still there.

Things Have Changed is a brilliant song. Thematically it's similar to much of TOOM but the cleaner production points forward to L&T. very cool how he can throw a fantastic standalone song like that onto a soundtrack to some random movie. It should have been on Tell Tale Signs really (as it's a key song of that era for me) but I guess it was already widely released on The Essential compilation.

There's some similar themes on Oh Mercy- again, it sounds a bit world weary and there's obviously been some kind of break up. But the fact is that a lot of these themes have always been there in Dylan's work. It's a music journalist affectation to try and hook it around some biographical truth (especially with Dylan who hardly ever writes autobiographically). It's similar with Ladies & Gentlemen and Songs In A&E "oh he's written his breakup album, oh he's written his death album".. whereas love and death have always been there right since the Spacemen 3 days. It's just a neat story for a journalist to hang around an album.

I never really cared for Oh Mercy myself. In fact it was one of the few Dylan CDs I got rid of when I had a clearout. Some of the production is nice (the atmospheric guitar on Most Of The Time is lovely) but I find the songs quite basic, and some of them plain annoying (Everything Is Broken which just sounds a bit goofy to me). It's kind of a dry run for Time Out Of Mind, and I think a lot of the love for it may have just come because he finally did a solid album after rather dire 80s.