Post by a***@gmail.comI enjoy reading stories about interstellar empires. There are several problems an interstellar empire must solve. How to travel light years in short times. How to govern a vast empire.In many SF empires, the government may be corrupt. This is realistic. All human institutions are tainted by our moral imperfections.Idealism rarely survives the real world of politics. The key thing realists must achieve is protection of human rights of its public, with economic growth and trade.Abhinav LalWriter & Investor"Politics is the art of the impossible"

The undeniable best story about an interstellar empire:https://www.amazon.com/Foundation-Isaac-Asimov/dp/0553293354/

Wow, Big River is saying that _Foundation_ is third in a series of tenbooks. I guess that I did not realize that even though I have read allten books.https://www.amazon.com/gp/bookseries/B00CJDIBD4/

I enjoy reading stories about interstellar empires. There are severalproblems an interstellar empire must solve. How to travel light yearsin short times. How to govern a vast empire.In many SF empires, the government may be corrupt. This isrealistic. All human institutions are tainted by our moralimperfections.Idealism rarely survives the real world of politics. The key thingrealists must achieve is protection of human rights of its public,with economic growth and trade.Abhinav LalWriter & Investor"Politics is the art of the impossible"

https://www.amazon.com/Foundation-Isaac-Asimov/dp/0553293354/Wow, Big River is saying that _Foundation_ is third in a series of tenbooks. I guess that I did not realize that even though I have read allten books. https://www.amazon.com/gp/bookseries/B00CJDIBD4/Lynn

Only chronologically. Those first two books were prequels. However theThe Stars Like Dust, The Currents of Space, and Pebble in the Sky appearto be even earlier in the same continuity.

Post by a***@gmail.comI enjoy reading stories about interstellar empires. There are several problems an interstellar empire must solve. How to travel light years in short times. How to govern a vast empire.In many SF empires, the government may be corrupt. This is realistic. All human institutions are tainted by our moral imperfections.Idealism rarely survives the real world of politics. The key thing realists must achieve is protection of human rights of its public, with economic growth and trade.

Of course, there is wide disagreement on the what those rights are, and are not, between polities and within them.

Everything depends, in analyzing interstellar states and societies for SFnal purposes, on the assumed technological background. If it takes a year to cross the empire, it'll look very different than if it takes five years, or a week. If messages can be sent instantaneously across the state, things will be rather different than if it takes months to send a message from the capitol to the marches.

Post by a***@gmail.comI enjoy reading stories about interstellar empires. There are several problems an interstellar empire must solve. How to travel light years in short times. How to govern a vast empire.In many SF empires, the government may be corrupt. This is realistic. All human institutions are tainted by our moral imperfections.Idealism rarely survives the real world of politics. The key thing realists must achieve is protection of human rights of its public, with economic growth and trade.

Of course, there is wide disagreement on the what those rights are, and are not, between polities and within them.

Perhaps there will be universal laws and rights that apply to everyone, and local rules that do not contradict universal rules.

As the most basic universal rights, I propose sanctity of body and mind. That means your body and mind can never be violated.

Post by Johnny1AEverything depends, in analyzing interstellar states and societies for SFnal purposes, on the assumed technological background. If it takes a year to cross the empire, it'll look very different than if it takes five years, or a week. If messages can be sent instantaneously across the state, things will be rather different than if it takes months to send a message from the capitol to the marches.

It is fast communication and transportation that has made globalisation progress in our world. Without fast communication and transportation it will be hard to establish and control an interstellar empire.

Post by a***@gmail.comI enjoy reading stories about interstellar empires. There are several problems an interstellar empire must solve. How to travel light years in short times. How to govern a vast empire.In many SF empires, the government may be corrupt. This is realistic. All human institutions are tainted by our moral imperfections.Idealism rarely survives the real world of politics. The key thing realists must achieve is protection of human rights of its public, with economic growth and trade.

Of course, there is wide disagreement on the what those rights are, and are not, between polities and within them.

Perhaps there will be universal laws and rights that apply to everyone, and local rules that do not contradict universal rules.As the most basic universal rights, I propose sanctity of body and mind. That means your body and mind can never be violated.

Now define 'sanctity', 'body', 'mind', and 'violate'. This is not a joke.

Post by a***@gmail.comI enjoy reading stories about interstellar empires. There are several problems an interstellar empire must solve. How to travel light years in short times. How to govern a vast empire.In many SF empires, the government may be corrupt. This is realistic. All human institutions are tainted by our moral imperfections.Idealism rarely survives the real world of politics. The key thing realists must achieve is protection of human rights of its public, with economic growth and trade.

Of course, there is wide disagreement on the what those rights are, and are not, between polities and within them.

Perhaps there will be universal laws and rights that apply to everyone, and local rules that do not contradict universal rules.As the most basic universal rights, I propose sanctity of body and mind. That means your body and mind can never be violated.

Now define 'sanctity', 'body', 'mind', and 'violate'. This is not a joke.

So, alal is cool with anti-vaxers?

I'm curious how he applies this claim to a woman seeking abortion. Doesshe get it, or not? As it stands, its utterly ambiguous.

Post by a***@gmail.comI enjoy reading stories about interstellar empires. There are several problems an interstellar empire must solve. How to travel light years in short times. How to govern a vast empire.In many SF empires, the government may be corrupt. This is realistic. All human institutions are tainted by our moral imperfections.Idealism rarely survives the real world of politics. The key thing realists must achieve is protection of human rights of its public, with economic growth and trade.

Of course, there is wide disagreement on the what those rights are, and are not, between polities and within them.

Perhaps there will be universal laws and rights that apply to everyone, and local rules that do not contradict universal rules.As the most basic universal rights, I propose sanctity of body and mind. That means your body and mind can never be violated.

Now define 'sanctity', 'body', 'mind', and 'violate'. This is not a joke.

So, alal is cool with anti-vaxers?

Forgive me, I don't know what anti-vaxers are.

Post by Peter TreiI'm curious how he applies this claim to a woman seeking abortion. Doesshe get it, or not? As it stands, its utterly ambiguous.pt

I over simplified things. A person should have full control over his or her mind and body. That means no unwanted medical procedures or unwanted implants on the body. That also means no unwanted use of hypnotic techniques on the mind, including blocking of memories, creation of false memories, or programming of behaviour. No physical torture.

I am sure my preceding statement is imperfect, and we can discuss further if you want to, but I discuss as a retired IT consultant, and am not able to discuss as a legal professional.

You can work a search engine, can't you?People who distrust vaccines, and avoid them for themselves or theirchildren.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_hesitancyThese louts are prmoting measles outbreaks here in the USA.-- Kevin R a.a #2310

But, but, but. Only people who haven't been vaccinated for measles willbreak out in measles, won't they?

You can work a search engine, can't you?People who distrust vaccines, and avoid them for themselves or theirchildren.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_hesitancyThese louts are prmoting measles outbreaks here in the USA.-- Kevin R a.a #2310

But, but, but. Only people who haven't been vaccinated for measles willbreak out in measles, won't they?

Right. Which isn't the antivaxxers. It's the blameless children ofantivaxxers, babies too young to have been vaccinated yet, people withimmune system issues who can't take vaccinations, old people whoseimmune systems are no longer up to it even after vaccination...

You can work a search engine, can't you?People who distrust vaccines, and avoid them for themselves or theirchildren.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_hesitancyThese louts are prmoting measles outbreaks here in the USA.-- Kevin R a.a #2310

But, but, but. Only people who haven't been vaccinated for measles willbreak out in measles, won't they?

Right. Which isn't the antivaxxers. It's the blameless children ofantivaxxers, babies too young to have been vaccinated yet, people withimmune system issues who can't take vaccinations, old people whoseimmune systems are no longer up to it even after vaccination...

I would not require people to get the vaccinations, butthey woould be under a moral obligation to make surethey are not carriers, and as soon as they know they are,to shut themselves away from others. The children involvedwould have to be home-schooled, or enrolled in distancelearning of some kind.

This is a highly impractical solution.

Absent a real medical issue (deathly allergic to an ingredientin the vaccine, frex) people should get the vaccination.

Every once in a while this presumption is untrue. Consider themid-1970s "swine flu" scare.

You can work a search engine, can't you?People who distrust vaccines, and avoid them for themselves or theirchildren.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_hesitancyThese louts are prmoting measles outbreaks here in the USA.-- Kevin R a.a #2310

But, but, but. Only people who haven't been vaccinated for measles willbreak out in measles, won't they?

Babies too young to be vaccinated, yes, and peoplewith various immune system conditions that makeroutine vaccination unsuitable (for instance, anyallergy), but also people whose vaccination justdidn't work: because sometimes it doesn't.They all can still get it.

I think my age group got vaccines against polioand tuberculosis, but spent the 1970s-80s gettingthe routine diseases. I buy an influenza vaccinenow annually: I think there was talk of makingone that goes on working...

You can work a search engine, can't you?People who distrust vaccines, and avoid them for themselves or theirchildren.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_hesitancyThese louts are prmoting measles outbreaks here in the USA.-- Kevin R a.a #2310

But, but, but. Only people who haven't been vaccinated for measles willbreak out in measles, won't they?

Babies too young to be vaccinated, yes, and peoplewith various immune system conditions that makeroutine vaccination unsuitable (for instance, anyallergy), but also people whose vaccination justdidn't work: because sometimes it doesn't.They all can still get it.I think my age group got vaccines against polioand tuberculosis, but spent the 1970s-80s gettingthe routine diseases. I buy an influenza vaccinenow annually: I think there was talk of makingone that goes on working...

You can work a search engine, can't you?People who distrust vaccines, and avoid them for themselves or theirchildren.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_hesitancyThese louts are prmoting measles outbreaks here in the USA.-- Kevin R a.a #2310

But, but, but. Only people who haven't been vaccinated for measles willbreak out in measles, won't they?

Babies too young to be vaccinated, yes, and peoplewith various immune system conditions that makeroutine vaccination unsuitable (for instance, anyallergy), but also people whose vaccination justdidn't work: because sometimes it doesn't.They all can still get it.I think my age group got vaccines against polioand tuberculosis, but spent the 1970s-80s gettingthe routine diseases. I buy an influenza vaccinenow annually: I think there was talk of makingone that goes on working...

It's not that it doesn't "go on working", the virus mutates.

It mutates A LOT. The annual "flu vaccine" isn't a vaccine against"this year's model", its a vaccine against the two or three variantsthat are expected to be the most common in the coming "flu season".

--Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservationinstinct are running screaming.

Post by Robert CarnegieBabies too young to be vaccinated, yes, and peoplewith various immune system conditions that makeroutine vaccination unsuitable (for instance, anyallergy), but also people whose vaccination justdidn't work: because sometimes it doesn't.They all can still get it.I think my age group got vaccines against polioand tuberculosis, but spent the 1970s-80s gettingthe routine diseases. I buy an influenza vaccinenow annually: I think there was talk of makingone that goes on working...

That would be great ... except that each annual round of flu iscaused by a slightly different virus (the human and animalpopulation having either had the previous year's virus and noware immune, or died of it).

It's like saying "Why can't they cure the common cold?" and theanswer is that there isn't any *the* common cold, there areumpteen different rhinoviruses that spent the off-season mutatinglike mad into something we can catch *this* year.

Post by Robert CarnegieBabies too young to be vaccinated, yes, and peoplewith various immune system conditions that makeroutine vaccination unsuitable (for instance, anyallergy), but also people whose vaccination justdidn't work: because sometimes it doesn't.They all can still get it.I think my age group got vaccines against polioand tuberculosis, but spent the 1970s-80s gettingthe routine diseases. I buy an influenza vaccinenow annually: I think there was talk of makingone that goes on working...

That would be great ... except that each annual round of flu iscaused by a slightly different virus (the human and animalpopulation having either had the previous year's virus and noware immune, or died of it).It's like saying "Why can't they cure the common cold?" and theanswer is that there isn't any *the* common cold, there areumpteen different rhinoviruses that spent the off-season mutatinglike mad into something we can catch *this* year.

Thank you. Obviously i know little about this. In New Zealand, the 'fluvaccine is free for doddery old farts and I take advantage of that butdid not know that I was being immunised against LAST year's 'flu.So, because the virus mutates too quickly to be counteracted and becausethere may be side effects, perhaps the anti-vaxxers aren't that stupidafter all?

Post by Robert CarnegieBabies too young to be vaccinated, yes, and peoplewith various immune system conditions that makeroutine vaccination unsuitable (for instance, anyallergy), but also people whose vaccination justdidn't work: because sometimes it doesn't.They all can still get it.I think my age group got vaccines against polioand tuberculosis, but spent the 1970s-80s gettingthe routine diseases. I buy an influenza vaccinenow annually: I think there was talk of makingone that goes on working...

That would be great ... except that each annual round of flu iscaused by a slightly different virus (the human and animalpopulation having either had the previous year's virus and noware immune, or died of it).It's like saying "Why can't they cure the common cold?" and theanswer is that there isn't any *the* common cold, there areumpteen different rhinoviruses that spent the off-season mutatinglike mad into something we can catch *this* year.

Thank you. Obviously i know little about this. In New Zealand, the 'fluvaccine is free for doddery old farts and I take advantage of that butdid not know that I was being immunised against LAST year's 'flu.So, because the virus mutates too quickly to be counteracted and becausethere may be side effects, perhaps the anti-vaxxers aren't that stupidafter all?

I assure you they are. For one thing influenza is something of aspecial case because of it's peculiar nature that causes it to exchangeDNA with hosts. Other viruses like tetanus, smallpox, measles andrubella are much less slippery. We'd give up on influenza except thatinfluenza is the infectious disease that, when left unchecked, killsmore people than any other disease known to humanity.

Post by Robert CarnegieBabies too young to be vaccinated, yes, and peoplewith various immune system conditions that makeroutine vaccination unsuitable (for instance, anyallergy), but also people whose vaccination justdidn't work: because sometimes it doesn't.They all can still get it.I think my age group got vaccines against polioand tuberculosis, but spent the 1970s-80s gettingthe routine diseases. I buy an influenza vaccinenow annually: I think there was talk of makingone that goes on working...

That would be great ... except that each annual round of flu iscaused by a slightly different virus (the human and animalpopulation having either had the previous year's virus and noware immune, or died of it).It's like saying "Why can't they cure the common cold?" and theanswer is that there isn't any *the* common cold, there areumpteen different rhinoviruses that spent the off-season mutatinglike mad into something we can catch *this* year.

Thank you. Obviously i know little about this. In New Zealand, the 'fluvaccine is free for doddery old farts and I take advantage of that butdid not know that I was being immunised against LAST year's 'flu.So, because the virus mutates too quickly to be counteracted and becausethere may be side effects, perhaps the anti-vaxxers aren't that stupidafter all?

I assure you they are. For one thing influenza is something of aspecial case because of it's peculiar nature that causes it to exchangeDNA with hosts. Other viruses like tetanus, smallpox, measles andrubella are much less slippery. We'd give up on influenza except thatinfluenza is the infectious disease that, when left unchecked, killsmore people than any other disease known to humanity.

Agreed. I have usually got myself vaccinated before Christmas because, while I am not likely to be seriously affected by the flu, my Mother's health is precarious enough for her to be killed by it, and I don't want to give her it for Christmas. However last year the UK government decided to change the way the flu vaccine was distributed in a way that made it hard to get vaccinated even if you were in one of the risk groups, and people outside a risk group like me could not buy a vaccination.

(Meanwhile I rejoice in the super-science enhancements that have given me the special powers of not dying in childhood from tuberculosis, diphtheria, whooping-cough, or whatever else it is that was vaccinated against that I don't even need to remember).

Post by m***@sky.com(Meanwhile I rejoice in the super-science enhancements that have given me thespecial powers of not dying in childhood from tuberculosis, diphtheria,whooping-cough, or whatever else it is that was vaccinated against that Idon't even need to remember).

I know measles, mumps, and rubella off the top of my head; Wikipedia remindsme that the standard set in the US also now includeshepatitis Brotavirustetanushaemophilus influenza bpneumococcal (something)polioinfluenza, they want you starting young on that one [*]chickenpox/shingleshepatitis Ameningococcushuman papilomavirus

(Smallpox is aparently still eradicated, so is not included.)

Dave, I think not all of these were available yet in the late '60s

[*] I happen to know from long experience that if I do not get the flu shot, I_still_ do not get the flu. "Has never knowingly had a flu shot" scale of longexperience. I attribute this NOT to the flu shot being a Conspiracy to Injectthe Population with Unknown Substances, Possibly Green and Glowing, In Order ToControl Their Minds and Keep Them From attaining Rich-People Social Status,but rather to the plethora of colds and flus and ear infections that I got asa child 50-odd years ago in Cleveland OH having turbocharged my immune systemand got it firmly in "remember ALL of these FOREVER" mode for life.(Diabetes does not appear to be under the purview of my immune system assuch, alas. But it works well enough that I don't keep a box of bandaids athome, because my wounds don't get infected, for another example.)

--\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flowerIt's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to seeLove is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

Post by m***@sky.com(Meanwhile I rejoice in the super-science enhancements that have given me thespecial powers of not dying in childhood from tuberculosis, diphtheria,whooping-cough, or whatever else it is that was vaccinated against that Idon't even need to remember).

I know measles, mumps, and rubella off the top of my head; Wikipedia remindsme that the standard set in the US also now includeshepatitis Brotavirustetanushaemophilus influenza bpneumococcal (something)polioinfluenza, they want you starting young on that one [*]chickenpox/shingleshepatitis Ameningococcushuman papilomavirus(Smallpox is aparently still eradicated, so is not included.)Dave, I think not all of these were available yet in the late '60s[*] I happen to know from long experience that if I do not get the flu shot, I_still_ do not get the flu. "Has never knowingly had a flu shot" scale of longexperience. I attribute this NOT to the flu shot being a Conspiracy to Injectthe Population with Unknown Substances, Possibly Green and Glowing, In Order T

o

Post by David DeLaneyControl Their Minds and Keep Them From attaining Rich-People Social Status,but rather to the plethora of colds and flus and ear infections that I got asa child 50-odd years ago in Cleveland OH having turbocharged my immune systemand got it firmly in "remember ALL of these FOREVER" mode for life.(Diabetes does not appear to be under the purview of my immune system assuch, alas. But it works well enough that I don't keep a box of bandaids athome, because my wounds don't get infected, for another example.)

Careful there. Some vaccinations /are/ part of a Conspiracy.

ACTIVISM UPDATE: WaPo Editor Responds on Polio, Pakistan and the CIA

... As to whether a fake 2011 vaccination drive in Abbottabadrelated to the hunt for bin Laden bears meaningful responsibilityfor today's scares and violence against medical personnel, youmight wish to directly ask the reporter ...

The harm done to the anti-polio campaign is exactly what wasforecast when the CIA operation was revealed. As the Guardian(7/14/11) reported at the time:

The impact of the fake vaccination drive may be keenly felt inPakistan, where the public already sees an American conspiracyeverywhere. Polio campaigns could be at particular risk, asPakistan has the biggest polio problem in the world.

With the predicted damage to trust now resulting in a resurgence ofthe devastating disease, it would help prevent similarly destructiveoperations in the future if the Post would acknowledge theirimpact-in both its news and editorial pages. ...

Post by m***@sky.com(Meanwhile I rejoice in the super-science enhancements that have given me thespecial powers of not dying in childhood from tuberculosis, diphtheria,whooping-cough, or whatever else it is that was vaccinated against that Idon't even need to remember).

I know measles, mumps, and rubella off the top of my head; Wikipedia remindsme that the standard set in the US also now includeshepatitis Brotavirustetanushaemophilus influenza bpneumococcal (something)polioinfluenza, they want you starting young on that one [*]chickenpox/shingleshepatitis Ameningococcushuman papilomavirus(Smallpox is aparently still eradicated, so is not included.)Dave, I think not all of these were available yet in the late '60s[*] I happen to know from long experience that if I do not get the flu shot, I_still_ do not get the flu. "Has never knowingly had a flu shot" scale of longexperience. I attribute this NOT to the flu shot being a Conspiracy to Injectthe Population with Unknown Substances, Possibly Green and Glowing, In Order ToControl Their Minds and Keep Them From attaining Rich-People Social Status,but rather to the plethora of colds and flus and ear infections that I got asa child 50-odd years ago in Cleveland OH having turbocharged my immune systemand got it firmly in "remember ALL of these FOREVER" mode for life.(Diabetes does not appear to be under the purview of my immune system assuch, alas. But it works well enough that I don't keep a box of bandaids athome, because my wounds don't get infected, for another example.)

You are a mutant and we must vivisect you for the good of all Mankind.

--Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservationinstinct are running screaming.

Post by m***@sky.com(Meanwhile I rejoice in the super-science enhancements that have given me thespecial powers of not dying in childhood from tuberculosis, diphtheria,whooping-cough, or whatever else it is that was vaccinated against that Idon't even need to remember).

I know measles, mumps, and rubella off the top of my head; Wikipedia remindsme that the standard set in the US also now includeshepatitis Brotavirustetanushaemophilus influenza bpneumococcal (something)polioinfluenza, they want you starting young on that one [*]chickenpox/shingleshepatitis Ameningococcushuman papilomavirus(Smallpox is aparently still eradicated, so is not included.)Dave, I think not all of these were available yet in the late '60s[*] I happen to know from long experience that if I do not get the flu shot, I_still_ do not get the flu. "Has never knowingly had a flu shot" scale of longexperience. I attribute this NOT to the flu shot being a Conspiracy to Injectthe Population with Unknown Substances, Possibly Green and Glowing, In Order ToControl Their Minds and Keep Them From attaining Rich-People Social Status,but rather to the plethora of colds and flus and ear infections that I got asa child 50-odd years ago in Cleveland OH having turbocharged my immune systemand got it firmly in "remember ALL of these FOREVER" mode for life. (Diabetes does not appear to be under the purview of my immunesystem assuch, alas. But it works well enough that I don't keep a box of bandaids athome, because my wounds don't get infected, for another example.)

You are a mutant and we must vivisect you for the good of all Mankind.

We are all mutants. With around 3*10^9 base pairs and a mutation rateof around 10^(-8), each of us has around 30 mutations.

I've known this ever since I read X-MEN #59, wherein Cyclopsconvinces the mutant-hunting Sentinels that, rather than tryto neutralize all mutants on Earth, it would make sense totravel to the sun, and end mutation at the source! That was1969, when I would have been 12.

They failed at that, then came back. (AVENGERS #102)

Now, I might have read these in reverse order, as in theearly 70s I was following the Avengers every month, whereasI only sporadically read the Marvels in the late 60s. I gotcaught up once I was a college kid with access to back issuesat a comics shop.

Post by David DeLaney(Diabetes does not appear to be under the purview of my immune system assuch, alas. But it works well enough that I don't keep a box of bandaids athome, because my wounds don't get infected, for another example.)

Diabetes is very much under the purview of the immune system, in that it isoften caused by it. Type I diabetes is most commonly an autoimmune disorder.

Post by David DeLaney(Diabetes does not appear to be under the purview of my immune system assuch, alas. But it works well enough that I don't keep a box of bandaids athome, because my wounds don't get infected, for another example.)

Diabetes is very much under the purview of the immune system, in that it isoften caused by it. Type I diabetes is most commonly an autoimmune disorder.

Which basically translates into it working like one of those pantomime-slapstick scenes where the policemen are diligently hunting the criminal, whois sneaking merrily along in their wake causing chaos while the audience yellsdirections. Autoimmune disorders are, almost by definition, things the immunesystem can't actually handle itself.

Dave, perpetually mildly buzzing these days

--\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flowerIt's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to seeLove is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

Post by Robert CarnegieBabies too young to be vaccinated, yes, and peoplewith various immune system conditions that makeroutine vaccination unsuitable (for instance, anyallergy), but also people whose vaccination justdidn't work: because sometimes it doesn't.They all can still get it.I think my age group got vaccines against polioand tuberculosis, but spent the 1970s-80s gettingthe routine diseases. I buy an influenza vaccinenow annually: I think there was talk of makingone that goes on working...

That would be great ... except that each annual round of flu iscaused by a slightly different virus (the human and animalpopulation having either had the previous year's virus and noware immune, or died of it).It's like saying "Why can't they cure the common cold?" and theanswer is that there isn't any *the* common cold, there areumpteen different rhinoviruses that spent the off-season mutatinglike mad into something we can catch *this* year.

Thank you. Obviously i know little about this. In New Zealand, the 'fluvaccine is free for doddery old farts and I take advantage of that butdid not know that I was being immunised against LAST year's 'flu.So, because the virus mutates too quickly to be counteracted and becausethere may be side effects, perhaps the anti-vaxxers aren't that stupidafter all?

You are right, they aren't _that_ stupid.

They are an order of magnitude stupider.

--Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservationinstinct are running screaming.

Post by Robert CarnegieBabies too young to be vaccinated, yes, and peoplewith various immune system conditions that makeroutine vaccination unsuitable (for instance, anyallergy), but also people whose vaccination justdidn't work: because sometimes it doesn't.They all can still get it.I think my age group got vaccines against polioand tuberculosis, but spent the 1970s-80s gettingthe routine diseases. I buy an influenza vaccinenow annually: I think there was talk of makingone that goes on working...

That would be great ... except that each annual round of flu iscaused by a slightly different virus (the human and animalpopulation having either had the previous year's virus and noware immune, or died of it).It's like saying "Why can't they cure the common cold?" and theanswer is that there isn't any *the* common cold, there areumpteen different rhinoviruses that spent the off-season mutatinglike mad into something we can catch *this* year.

Thank you. Obviously i know little about this. In New Zealand, the 'fluvaccine is free for doddery old farts and I take advantage of that butdid not know that I was being immunised against LAST year's 'flu.So, because the virus mutates too quickly to be counteracted and becausethere may be side effects, perhaps the anti-vaxxers aren't that stupidafter all?

You are right, they aren't _that_ stupid.They are an order of magnitude stupider.

I'm not an antivaxxer, but I refuse to get flu shots. Someone I knowgot Guillain-Barre the year that that was happening and I'd ratherhave the flu thank you.

Post by Robert CarnegieBabies too young to be vaccinated, yes, and peoplewith various immune system conditions that makeroutine vaccination unsuitable (for instance, anyallergy), but also people whose vaccination justdidn't work: because sometimes it doesn't.They all can still get it.I think my age group got vaccines against polioand tuberculosis, but spent the 1970s-80s gettingthe routine diseases. I buy an influenza vaccinenow annually: I think there was talk of makingone that goes on working...

That would be great ... except that each annual round of flu iscaused by a slightly different virus (the human and animalpopulation having either had the previous year's virus and noware immune, or died of it).It's like saying "Why can't they cure the common cold?" and theanswer is that there isn't any *the* common cold, there areumpteen different rhinoviruses that spent the off-season mutatinglike mad into something we can catch *this* year.

Thank you. Obviously i know little about this. In New Zealand, the 'fluvaccine is free for doddery old farts and I take advantage of that butdid not know that I was being immunised against LAST year's 'flu.So, because the virus mutates too quickly to be counteracted and becausethere may be side effects, perhaps the anti-vaxxers aren't that stupidafter all?

You are right, they aren't _that_ stupid.They are an order of magnitude stupider.

I'm not an antivaxxer, but I refuse to get flu shots. Someone I knowgot Guillain-Barre the year that that was happening and I'd ratherhave the flu thank you.

Curiously, I test positive for BCG, probably due to living close to dairycattle, which may give me some immunity to G-B, and TB.

Post by Robert CarnegieBabies too young to be vaccinated, yes, and peoplewith various immune system conditions that makeroutine vaccination unsuitable (for instance, anyallergy), but also people whose vaccination justdidn't work: because sometimes it doesn't.They all can still get it.I think my age group got vaccines against polioand tuberculosis, but spent the 1970s-80s gettingthe routine diseases. I buy an influenza vaccinenow annually: I think there was talk of makingone that goes on working...

That would be great ... except that each annual round of flu iscaused by a slightly different virus (the human and animalpopulation having either had the previous year's virus and noware immune, or died of it).It's like saying "Why can't they cure the common cold?" and theanswer is that there isn't any *the* common cold, there areumpteen different rhinoviruses that spent the off-season mutatinglike mad into something we can catch *this* year.

Thank you. Obviously i know little about this. In New Zealand, the 'fluvaccine is free for doddery old farts and I take advantage of that butdid not know that I was being immunised against LAST year's 'flu.So, because the virus mutates too quickly to be counteracted and becausethere may be side effects, perhaps the anti-vaxxers aren't that stupidafter all?

Nah, they're generally dumb. Or in some cases wicked.I just searched for keywords (crystal flu) and, as youmay have guessed, there are folks happy to sell me magic"crystals" that prevent colds and influenza. Or don't,but "heal" you when you've got 'em. Lovely people.

Vaccination has had dark episodes such as in thenineteenth century, and always has the paradox ofrisk from vaccination itself - after all, the doctorcould trip and fall and stick the needle in your eye -as well as the cost. Depending on the disease,vaccinating everybody may cause it to die out, thenyou can stop vaccinating for that disease.(This takes a while.) Other diseases hang aroundin wild animals so we're stuck with those - apart fromexterminating the wild animals, which... may happen.

Or, the disease continues to exist in foreigners.It's still worth vaccinating citizens, and possiblystopping.

If a disease is very rare, for instance due tovaccination, then its risk to you may become comparableto disadvantages of a vaccine. That's the point whereyou may be taking the vaccine mainly to kill the diseasealtogether and protect the population until the end ofthe world... so you need to consider when that is.

Post by Robert CarnegieBabies too young to be vaccinated, yes, and peoplewith various immune system conditions that makeroutine vaccination unsuitable (for instance, anyallergy), but also people whose vaccination justdidn't work: because sometimes it doesn't.They all can still get it.I think my age group got vaccines against polioand tuberculosis, but spent the 1970s-80s gettingthe routine diseases. I buy an influenza vaccinenow annually: I think there was talk of makingone that goes on working...

That would be great ... except that each annual round of flu iscaused by a slightly different virus (the human and animalpopulation having either had the previous year's virus and noware immune, or died of it).It's like saying "Why can't they cure the common cold?" and theanswer is that there isn't any *the* common cold, there areumpteen different rhinoviruses that spent the off-season mutatinglike mad into something we can catch *this* year.

Thank you. Obviously i know little about this. In New Zealand, the 'fluvaccine is free for doddery old farts and I take advantage of that butdid not know that I was being immunised against LAST year's 'flu.So, because the virus mutates too quickly to be counteracted and becausethere may be side effects, perhaps the anti-vaxxers aren't that stupidafter all?

There's a reason that one of my former colleagues, an immunologist whoperforms clinical trials, refers to himself as "Pus King." Vaccinesremind me of Bismark's misattributed sausage, you don't want to knowhow either is made. Perhaps some of those anti-vaxxers took a peek atthe CDC's "Vaccine Excipient & Media Summary:"

There's also a reason that another former colleague, a pediatric nurse,thought that American school children are over-immunized. Her clinicalrefrigerator held dozens of different government mandated vaccines inneatly stacked trays.How many vaccinations are enough? Is an over-generalized,one-size-fits-all solution the best answer, or is it merely the easiestto administer?

Post by Robert CarnegieBabies too young to be vaccinated, yes, and peoplewith various immune system conditions that makeroutine vaccination unsuitable (for instance, anyallergy), but also people whose vaccination justdidn't work: because sometimes it doesn't.They all can still get it.I think my age group got vaccines against polioand tuberculosis, but spent the 1970s-80s gettingthe routine diseases. I buy an influenza vaccinenow annually: I think there was talk of makingone that goes on working...

That would be great ... except that each annual round of flu iscaused by a slightly different virus (the human and animalpopulation having either had the previous year's virus and noware immune, or died of it).It's like saying "Why can't they cure the common cold?" and theanswer is that there isn't any *the* common cold, there areumpteen different rhinoviruses that spent the off-season mutatinglike mad into something we can catch *this* year.

Thank you. Obviously i know little about this. In New Zealand, the 'fluvaccine is free for doddery old farts and I take advantage of that butdid not know that I was being immunised against LAST year's 'flu.

It's not precisely that. I suppose you can searchon (flu vaccine design) as effectively as anyone else:this looks like a reasonably thorough explanation.

<https://www.cdc.gov/flu/prevent/vaccine-selection.htm>

Although somehow I don't perceive as much urgencyas I'd like to see applied to this important work.Now, scientists don't need to be excited, or doctorsemotionally involved, to do their work well.But in this topic... I'd just like to see a senseof excitement.

Post by Titus GSo, because the virus mutates too quickly to be counteracted and becausethere may be side effects, perhaps the anti-vaxxers aren't that stupidafter all?

Post by Robert CarnegieBabies too young to be vaccinated, yes, and peoplewith various immune system conditions that makeroutine vaccination unsuitable (for instance, anyallergy), but also people whose vaccination justdidn't work: because sometimes it doesn't.They all can still get it.I think my age group got vaccines against polioand tuberculosis, but spent the 1970s-80s gettingthe routine diseases. I buy an influenza vaccinenow annually: I think there was talk of makingone that goes on working...

That would be great ... except that each annual round of flu iscaused by a slightly different virus (the human and animalpopulation having either had the previous year's virus and noware immune, or died of it).It's like saying "Why can't they cure the common cold?" and theanswer is that there isn't any *the* common cold, there areumpteen different rhinoviruses that spent the off-season mutatinglike mad into something we can catch *this* year.

Thank you. Obviously i know little about this. In New Zealand, the 'fluvaccine is free for doddery old farts and I take advantage of that butdid not know that I was being immunised against LAST year's 'flu.

You were not. The flu is a worldwide disease and the vaccines are constructed with an eye to what strains are likely to prevail in your area in the coming flu season. This will usually include a lot of last year's flu, because the strains do not change one hundred percent in a year.

Post by Titus GSo, because the virus mutates too quickly to be counteracted

On the contrary, the flu vaccine is of some value even in the worst years, when the estimate as to the relevant strains was wrong, and is highly effective when the estimate is more or less correct.

I had the flu virtually every year in the 90s. I've been taking the flu shot since 2000 and have not had the flu since. Now that's somewhat fortunate - as I say the shot is not 100% effective - but I will certainly be getting a shot again this year.

The flu shot, of course, does not protect against other respiratory infections.

and because

Post by Titus Gthere may be side effects, perhaps the anti-vaxxers aren't that stupidafter all?

Post by Robert CarnegieBabies too young to be vaccinated, yes, and peoplewith various immune system conditions that makeroutine vaccination unsuitable (for instance, anyallergy), but also people whose vaccination justdidn't work: because sometimes it doesn't.They all can still get it.I think my age group got vaccines against polioand tuberculosis, but spent the 1970s-80s gettingthe routine diseases. I buy an influenza vaccinenow annually: I think there was talk of makingone that goes on working...

That would be great ... except that each annual round of flu iscaused by a slightly different virus (the human and animalpopulation having either had the previous year's virus and noware immune, or died of it).It's like saying "Why can't they cure the common cold?" and theanswer is that there isn't any *the* common cold, there areumpteen different rhinoviruses that spent the off-season mutatinglike mad into something we can catch *this* year.

Thank you. Obviously i know little about this. In New Zealand, the 'fluvaccine is free for doddery old farts and I take advantage of that butdid not know that I was being immunised against LAST year's 'flu.

You were not. The flu is a worldwide disease and the vaccines areconstructed with an eye to what strains are likely to prevail in yourarea in the coming flu season. This will usually include a lot of lastyear's flu, because the strains do not change one hundred percent in ayear.

Post by Titus GSo, because the virus mutates too quickly to be counteracted

On the contrary, the flu vaccine is of some value even in the worstyears, when the estimate as to the relevant strains was wrong, and ishighly effective when the estimate is more or less correct.I had the flu virtually every year in the 90s. I've been taking the flushot since 2000 and have not had the flu since. Now that's somewhatfortunate - as I say the shot is not 100% effective - but I willcertainly be getting a shot again this year.The flu shot, of course, does not protect against other respiratory infections.and because

Post by Titus Gthere may be side effects, perhaps the anti-vaxxers aren't that stupidafter all?

Far from all of them are stupid. But all of them are wrong.William Hyde

Flu ranges from "worse than a bad cold" to "cause of death".

I had 'flat on my back for 2 weeks felt like I had died flu' in 1995. Eversince then I get the shot.

Post by Robert CarnegieBabies too young to be vaccinated, yes, and peoplewith various immune system conditions that makeroutine vaccination unsuitable (for instance, anyallergy), but also people whose vaccination justdidn't work: because sometimes it doesn't.They all can still get it.I think my age group got vaccines against polioand tuberculosis, but spent the 1970s-80s gettingthe routine diseases. I buy an influenza vaccinenow annually: I think there was talk of makingone that goes on working...

That would be great ... except that each annual round of flu iscaused by a slightly different virus (the human and animalpopulation having either had the previous year's virus and noware immune, or died of it).It's like saying "Why can't they cure the common cold?" and theanswer is that there isn't any *the* common cold, there areumpteen different rhinoviruses that spent the off-season mutatinglike mad into something we can catch *this* year.

Thank you. Obviously i know little about this. In New Zealand, the 'fluvaccine is free for doddery old farts and I take advantage of that butdid not know that I was being immunised against LAST year's 'flu.

You were not. The flu is a worldwide disease and the vaccines areconstructed with an eye to what strains are likely to prevail in yourarea in the coming flu season. This will usually include a lot of lastyear's flu, because the strains do not change one hundred percent in ayear.

Post by Titus GSo, because the virus mutates too quickly to be counteracted

On the contrary, the flu vaccine is of some value even in the worstyears, when the estimate as to the relevant strains was wrong, and ishighly effective when the estimate is more or less correct.I had the flu virtually every year in the 90s. I've been taking the flushot since 2000 and have not had the flu since. Now that's somewhatfortunate - as I say the shot is not 100% effective - but I willcertainly be getting a shot again this year.The flu shot, of course, does not protect against other respiratory infections.and because

Post by Titus Gthere may be side effects, perhaps the anti-vaxxers aren't that stupidafter all?

Far from all of them are stupid. But all of them are wrong.William Hyde

Flu ranges from "worse than a bad cold" to "cause of death".I had 'flat on my back for 2 weeks felt like I had died flu' in 1995. Eversince then I get the shot.

I never knew my paternal grandfather. `Flu got him when my dad was3 years old. I got the "Russian Flu"* so bad in the winter of1977-1978 that I couldn't complete my coursework for my BA andhad to withdraw before spring mid-terms. It didn't kill me, butit cost me time and money I could not afford to waste.

Many people think they have a flu, when they have some otherrespiratory infection, and/or a "stomach bug" - gastroenteritis,from a Norovirus. That last can kill you, especially if you arepart of vulnerable group: very young, the elderly, and personswith weakened immune systems.

Post by KevrobMany people think they have a flu, when they have some otherrespiratory infection, and/or a "stomach bug" - gastroenteritis,from a Norovirus. That last can kill you, especially if you arepart of vulnerable group: very young, the elderly, and personswith weakened immune systems.

We had a dancer who either did not know they were sick or decidedto play through it show up with norovirus at the theatre for adance competition. Hilarity ensued, by which I mean 40 dancers gotsick and I picked up a lot of shifts as the other staff got sickas well.

I like to think I missed it because I have an over active immunesystem but it might have been the minor detail that the sick dancerthrew up late enough I had just gone off shift and didn't haveto clean it. The HM who did clean was the first or second staffmember to succumb.

--My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

Post by James NicollWe had a dancer who either did not know they were sick or decidedto play through it show up with norovirus at the theatre for adance competition. Hilarity ensued, by which I mean 40 dancers gotsick and I picked up a lot of shifts as the other staff got sick as well.

I was going to comlain that this might better have been described as "wackyhijinks", until I looked up and really saaw who I was about to reply to.

Post by James NicollI like to think I missed it because I have an over active immunesystem but it might have been the minor detail that the sick dancerthrew up late enough I had just gone off shift and didn't haveto clean it. The HM who did clean was the first or second staffmember to succumb.

Dave, ick ick flower ick

--\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flowerIt's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to seeLove is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

... The evidence favors acceptance of a causal relation betweenPRP vaccine and death from early-onset Hib disease in children18 months of age or older who receive their first Hib immunizationwith unconjugated PRP vaccine. ...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK236284/

Allow me to note that annual flu shots are mandatory for me. It's also amatter of ethics in my case.

1) I had a bout of flu 16 years ago turned into double pneumonia that turned into drug resistant pneumonia, and I have absolutely no recollection of at least 3 days of my life because I was delirious with a fever between 38 and 41 degrees C. I've had the flu shot every year since, except one when South African pharmacy wholesalers seemed to have forgotten to order stock in time. People die from the flu, and from its complications. And just getting this year's vaccine is not always good enough. So the next anti-vaxxer who gets in my face about the flu vac might just suffer an extremely severe tongue-lashing.

2) Polio - thank God my generation has been spared that horror, except they haven't. A cousin of my wife missed his when he was baby. Some story about the nurse dropping the vial and telling his mother "Don't worry, its not like anybody else isn't vaccinated, and nobody gets polio these days anyway." Wrong! He survived his brush with death but has lived most of his life in a wheel chair and has extreme difficulty breathing at times. If I ever get my hands on an anti-vaxxer proposing that ANYBODY skips the polio vac I might just not be accountable for the harm that gets done.

3) My maternal grandfather died when I was six. He was only 56. Cause of death was "heart failure" but the cardiologist (who was just a little over half my grandfather's age) was quick to point out that his heart failed particularly because of damage down when he had suffered from childhood infection that was by the 80s already unheard of due to vaccination. I thought the infection was German Measles but the Wikipedia page doesn't mention any long term cardiac problems. If the vaccine the doctor was talking about had been available in the late 1920s to early 1930s (I think 1932 would have been the exact year it was needed) then my grandfather might have lived as long as some of his siblings (80 to 90). On the other hand his heart condition did keep him out of WWII, and the Korean War, despite him volunteering, and it kept him out of the underground part of the South African mining industry.

4) The entire modern anti-vaxxer movement is the product of three medical "professionals" who sold their souls for pathetically small amounts of money to promote a "homeopathic vaccine" over the traditional MMR vac. They were found out, their "evidence" completely discredited, their financial motives laid bare, and their guilt decided by a jury of their peers in courts. They have been kicked out of every professional body they ever belonged to, their qualifications and credentials have been revoked. They have already served their prison time, paid their fines and are back in general society. The anti-vaxxers are swallowing and regurgitating a discredited decade old lie. These are obviously a lower class of mental microbe, related to the UFO-crazies, the Black-helicopter-tinfoil hat brigade and the Big-foot conservators.

5) Dig deep enough into an anti-vaxxer's psychosis and the issue comes down to: "It's OK for EVERYONE else to vaccinate their children AND THEY SHOULD DO SO. I just don't want to expose my child to the needles and / or imaginary risk."

Without looking, I suspect this is the same thing Professor Quirrell impliedcould stop people from acting so annoyingly, in HP&tMoR...

Dave, also see that one Tom Lehrer song

--\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flowerIt's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to seeLove is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

-reginald-hill/9780307372413Without looking, I suspect this is the same thing Professor Quirrell impliedcould stop people from acting so annoyingly, in HP&tMoR...Dave, also see that one Tom Lehrer song

What song?

There's no such thing as a cure-all. Loss of consciousness is one ofmany vaccine product side effects. Here's some anecdotal stories aboutbad outcomes. Most patients were lucky and suffered only a /near/ deathexperience.

Case 1 describes a 17-year-old boy who developed syncope 10minutes after receiving tetanus-diphtheria and measles, mumps,and rubella vaccines. The patient suffered a linear skullfracture and bilateral frontotemporal contusions. Case 2describes a 12-year-old boy who developed syncope 10 to 15minutes after receiving a measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine.The patient suffered frontal cerebral contusions. Case 3describes a 26-year-old man who developed syncope less than3 minutes after receiving tetanus-diphtheria and measles, mumps,and rubella vaccines. The patient suffered a linear nondepressedskull fracture and contusions of the frontal and temporalregions. Depression and cognitive deficits continued througha follow-up 2 years after injury. Case 4 describes a 28-year-oldman who developed syncope within 1 minute after receiving ameasles vaccine. The patient suffered from a subdural andepidural hematoma compressing the right lateral ventricle.The patient experienced months of cognitive, behavioral,speech, and language problems after the injury. Case 5describes a 15-year-old boy who developed syncope less than10 minutes after receiving a tetanus-diphtheria vaccine. Thepatient suffered a massive cerebral hemorrhage from a laceratedmiddle meningeal artery. Two years after the injury the patienthad a right hemiparesis. Case 6 describes an 18-year-old girlwho developed syncope 5 minutes after receiving atetanus-diphtheria vaccine. The patient suffered a skullfracture, cerebral contusions, and a right frontal hematoma.

Miller and Woo (2006) describe a teenage boy who experiencedvasovagal syncope a few minutes after receiving the third doseof a hepatitis B vaccine. The patient fell striking his head.Upon regaining consciousness the patient developed seizuresand cardiopulmonary arrest after complaining of pain in thechest and arms. Resuscitation attempts failed and the patientdied. Frontal lobe contusions, edema, and cerebral hemorrhagewere observed during autopsy. The fall and resulting headinjuries were determined to be the cause of death.

-reginald-hill/9780307372413Without looking, I suspect this is the same thing Professor Quirrell impliedcould stop people from acting so annoyingly, in HP&tMoR...Dave, also see that one Tom Lehrer song

What song?There's no such thing as a cure-all. Loss of consciousness is one ofmany vaccine product side effects. Here's some anecdotal stories aboutbad outcomes. Most patients were lucky and suffered only a /near/ deathexperience.

Anecdotal evidence.

Post by D B DavisCase 1 describes a 17-year-old boy who developed syncope 10minutes after receiving tetanus-diphtheria and measles, mumps,

All you need to get syncope is dehydration and/or low BP. As all the subsequentinjuries were related to the syncope, and the only linkage to the vaccinationis time-based, I wouldn't draw any conclusions from this anecdotal evidence;particularly any conclusions with respect to viability of any particularvaccine.

-reginald-hill/9780307372413Without looking, I suspect this is the same thing Professor Quirrell impliedcould stop people from acting so annoyingly, in HP&tMoR...Dave, also see that one Tom Lehrer song

What song?There's no such thing as a cure-all. Loss of consciousness is one ofmany vaccine product side effects. Here's some anecdotal stories aboutbad outcomes. Most patients were lucky and suffered only a /near/ deathexperience.

Anecdotal evidence.

Post by D B DavisCase 1 describes a 17-year-old boy who developed syncope 10minutes after receiving tetanus-diphtheria and measles, mumps,

All you need to get syncope is dehydration and/or low BP. As all the subsequentinjuries were related to the syncope, and the only linkage to the vaccinationis time-based, I wouldn't draw any conclusions from this anecdotal evidence;particularly any conclusions with respect to viability of any particularvaccine.

I looked up "syncope." Fainting.

I had a smallpox shot at the age of 17, on a hot, muggy Augustday, shortly before I left home for my first semester of college.I went down like a sack of potatoes. The doctor's office wasprobably pretty warm. This was the mid-70s, as getting such shotswas being phased out, but my college required it. Apparently,this isn't uncommon among adolescents, but I didn't care for theteasing I got from my brothers about it. I was far from the strongestor most athletic of my peer group at school, so anything that reinforceda "wuss image" was not welcome.

Some very famous athletes have regularly vomited before games.NHL Hall-of-Fame goaltendet Glenn hall comes immediately tomind, but for fans in the RotW, star FIFA-style footballer LionelMessi is known for upchucking due to "Avoid Exercise Induced Nausea& Vomiting."

Hell, I can produce a bout of that by running around the block!I used to be the Worst Pond Hockey Goalie

My earlier shots were done when I was very small. We got theSabin Oral polio vaccine as kids on sugar cube. I tolerate shotsOK as an adult, though.

Post by KevrobI had a smallpox shot at the age of 17, on a hot, muggy Augustday, shortly before I left home for my first semester of college.I went down like a sack of potatoes. The doctor's office wasprobably pretty warm. This was the mid-70s, as getting such shotswas being phased out, but my college required it. Apparently,this isn't uncommon among adolescents, but I didn't care for theteasing I got from my brothers about it. I was far from the strongestor most athletic of my peer group at school, so anything that reinforceda "wuss image" was not welcome.

Adolescents are also much more likely to faint when donating blood thanolder adults. (I'm a platelet donor, which means I chat with phlebotomists alot.)

Post by KevrobI had a smallpox shot at the age of 17, on a hot, muggy Augustday, shortly before I left home for my first semester of college.I went down like a sack of potatoes. The doctor's office wasprobably pretty warm. This was the mid-70s, as getting such shotswas being phased out, but my college required it. Apparently,this isn't uncommon among adolescents, but I didn't care for theteasing I got from my brothers about it. I was far from the strongestor most athletic of my peer group at school, so anything that reinforceda "wuss image" was not welcome.

Adolescents are also much more likely to faint when donating blood thanolder adults. (I'm a platelet donor, which means I chat with phlebotomists alot.)

Good for you. I donated platelets once, and remember chiefly howcold I got (in spite of the warm blanket) and how annoying it wasthat I couldn't scratch my nose.

Getting back to fainting adolescents ... when I transferred to UCBerkeley as a junior, about the first thing I had to do was to goto Cowell Hospital for a checkup. I was standing in line alongwith a lot of other entering students, waiting to have a bloodsample drawn ... and two or three people ahead of me, this greatbig strapping guy suddenly fainted. At the very thought ofhaving blood drawn. The staff picked him up and took himsomewhere to lie down, and I suppose he was all right eventually.But the phlebotomist told me that yes, some people fainted at thethought of their own blood being spilled or otherwise siphoned,and usually it was the big tough guys. I have yet to find a usefor this phenomenon in fiction, but I might someday.

Post by Dorothy J HeydtGood for you. I donated platelets once, and remember chiefly howcold I got (in spite of the warm blanket) and how annoying it wasthat I couldn't scratch my nose.

I have learned that you should always dress warmly for blood donation. Forone, they chill the room even in summer because it extends the life of theblood--they can't actually refrigerate it until you're done donating, whichfor platelets can be two hours. For another, when you're warm, the bloodvessels outside the head and torso dilate, meaning the donation goes fasterand the stick is easier.

The blood center I donate at uses a one-arm system, where they withdrawblood, process it, and pump back everything but the platelets. The donationtakes longer but you have one arm free.

Post by Dorothy J HeydtGetting back to fainting adolescents ... when I transferred to UCBerkeley as a junior, about the first thing I had to do was to goto Cowell Hospital for a checkup. I was standing in line alongwith a lot of other entering students, waiting to have a bloodsample drawn ... and two or three people ahead of me, this greatbig strapping guy suddenly fainted. At the very thought ofhaving blood drawn. The staff picked him up and took himsomewhere to lie down, and I suppose he was all right eventually.But the phlebotomist told me that yes, some people fainted at thethought of their own blood being spilled or otherwise siphoned,and usually it was the big tough guys. I have yet to find a usefor this phenomenon in fiction, but I might someday.

I have had phlebotomists tell me the same thing about blood drives at highschools--all their fainters were athletic-looking guys. I suspect selectivememory, because published research says syncope is more common among women(although it does support the idea that younger people faint more often thanolder adults).

I started getting venous blood draws at about 12, because I was gettingallergy desensitization shots. At first they were twice a week. By the timeI was in high school I was completely past any fear I might have had ofvenipuncture.

Post by Dorothy J HeydtGood for you. I donated platelets once, and remember chiefly howcold I got (in spite of the warm blanket) and how annoying it wasthat I couldn't scratch my nose.

I have learned that you should always dress warmly for blood donation. Forone, they chill the room even in summer because it extends the life of theblood--they can't actually refrigerate it until you're done donating, whichfor platelets can be two hours. For another, when you're warm, the bloodvessels outside the head and torso dilate, meaning the donation goes fasterand the stick is easier.The blood center I donate at uses a one-arm system, where they withdrawblood, process it, and pump back everything but the platelets. The donationtakes longer but you have one arm free.

Great!

However, I'm 76 and they won't even let me donate whole blood anymore. I got a pin for donating 5 gallons, though, before theymade me quit.

Post by Dorothy J HeydtGetting back to fainting adolescents ... when I transferred to UCBerkeley as a junior, about the first thing I had to do was to goto Cowell Hospital for a checkup. I was standing in line alongwith a lot of other entering students, waiting to have a bloodsample drawn ... and two or three people ahead of me, this greatbig strapping guy suddenly fainted. At the very thought ofhaving blood drawn. The staff picked him up and took himsomewhere to lie down, and I suppose he was all right eventually.But the phlebotomist told me that yes, some people fainted at thethought of their own blood being spilled or otherwise siphoned,and usually it was the big tough guys. I have yet to find a usefor this phenomenon in fiction, but I might someday.

I have had phlebotomists tell me the same thing about blood drives at highschools--all their fainters were athletic-looking guys. I suspect selectivememory, because published research says syncope is more common among women(although it does support the idea that younger people faint more often thanolder adults).I started getting venous blood draws at about 12, because I was gettingallergy desensitization shots. At first they were twice a week. By the timeI was in high school I was completely past any fear I might have had ofvenipuncture.

Oh, yeah. What with diabetes and wonky parathyroids, I get blooddrawn quite often. I go to the same lab every time, but Iusually get a different phlebotomist, and/or she doesn't rememberme from last time, so I always say, "Most of the techs who drawmy blood prefer *this* vein," indicating one on the far right ofthe inside of my right elbow. This has always been a good veinfor the purpose, and it also prevents the phlebotomist fromselecting a vein in my *left* arm. (I'm left-handed.)

As a fellow diabetic, I used have that 4 times a year, but now that I'm wellcontrolled it's only 2. (I'm not counting finger sticks and I'm sure youaren't either.)

Post by Dorothy J Heydt... I go to the same lab every time, but Iusually get a different phlebotomist, and/or she doesn't rememberme from last time, so I always say, "Most of the techs who drawmy blood prefer *this* vein," indicating one on the far right ofthe inside of my right elbow. This has always been a good veinfor the purpose, and it also prevents the phlebotomist fromselecting a vein in my *left* arm. (I'm left-handed.)

I always get stuck on the right side, and I'm strongly right-handed. Luckilyit doesn't affect me afterward--I've only ever had bruising once in over 40years and over 200 sticks.

As a fellow diabetic, I used have that 4 times a year, but now that I'm wellcontrolled it's only 2. (I'm not counting finger sticks and I'm sure youaren't either.)

Post by Dorothy J Heydt... I go to the same lab every time, but Iusually get a different phlebotomist, and/or she doesn't rememberme from last time, so I always say, "Most of the techs who drawmy blood prefer *this* vein," indicating one on the far right ofthe inside of my right elbow. This has always been a good veinfor the purpose, and it also prevents the phlebotomist fromselecting a vein in my *left* arm. (I'm left-handed.)

I always get stuck on the right side, and I'm strongly right-handed. Luckilyit doesn't affect me afterward--I've only ever had bruising once in over 40years and over 200 sticks.

Oh, I've had little bruises from time to time, but *little* ones.Basically, where the puncture leaks just a few drops. It's nevergiven me any pain, and it goes away within a week.

Post by Dorothy J HeydtGood for you. I donated platelets once, and remember chiefly howcold I got (in spite of the warm blanket) and how annoying it wasthat I couldn't scratch my nose.

I have learned that you should always dress warmly for blood donation. Forone, they chill the room even in summer because it extends the life of theblood--they can't actually refrigerate it until you're done donating, whichfor platelets can be two hours. For another, when you're warm, the bloodvessels outside the head and torso dilate, meaning the donation goes fasterand the stick is easier.The blood center I donate at uses a one-arm system, where they withdrawblood, process it, and pump back everything but the platelets. The donationtakes longer but you have one arm free.

Post by Dorothy J HeydtGetting back to fainting adolescents ... when I transferred to UCBerkeley as a junior, about the first thing I had to do was to goto Cowell Hospital for a checkup. I was standing in line alongwith a lot of other entering students, waiting to have a bloodsample drawn ... and two or three people ahead of me, this greatbig strapping guy suddenly fainted. At the very thought ofhaving blood drawn. The staff picked him up and took himsomewhere to lie down, and I suppose he was all right eventually.But the phlebotomist told me that yes, some people fainted at thethought of their own blood being spilled or otherwise siphoned,and usually it was the big tough guys. I have yet to find a usefor this phenomenon in fiction, but I might someday.

I have had phlebotomists tell me the same thing about blood drives at highschools--all their fainters were athletic-looking guys. I suspect selectivememory, because published research says syncope is more common among women(although it does support the idea that younger people faint more often thanolder adults).I started getting venous blood draws at about 12, because I was gettingallergy desensitization shots. At first they were twice a week. By the timeI was in high school I was completely past any fear I might have had ofvenipuncture.

My low blood pressure (101/67 this morning) makes it impossible for meto donate blood anymore. During my very last visit, higher bloodpressure donors (about a half a dozen) who sat in the chair opposite meat the blood bank, filled their bags in a matter of minutes. Meanwhilemy blood barely oozed out. The phlebotomist kept adjusting the needle invain/vein to try to speed up the process and it was painful each time.We finally reached a consensus that only a half a bag was extractable.Although they didn't say anything untoward, my feeling that a half fullbag of blood messes with their procurement system made me feel bad.

Post by D B DavisMy low blood pressure (101/67 this morning) makes it impossible for meto donate blood anymore. During my very last visit, higher bloodpressure donors (about a half a dozen) who sat in the chair opposite meat the blood bank, filled their bags in a matter of minutes. Meanwhilemy blood barely oozed out. The phlebotomist kept adjusting the needle invain/vein to try to speed up the process and it was painful each time.We finally reached a consensus that only a half a bag was extractable.Although they didn't say anything untoward, my feeling that a half fullbag of blood messes with their procurement system made me feel bad.

I have no idea how it would work for you, but for plasma, double-RBC, orplatelet donations they actively pump the blood out (and back in). It's onlywhole blood where unassisted venous pressure (plus gravity) is used.

Post by Carl FinkI have no idea how it would work for you, but for plasma, double-RBC, orplatelet donations they actively pump the blood out (and back in). It's onlywhole blood where unassisted venous pressure (plus gravity) is used.

I don't think they pumped my blood in or out, the one time Idonated platelets. But that was forty-ish years ago.

Post by Carl FinkI have no idea how it would work for you, but for plasma, double-RBC, orplatelet donations they actively pump the blood out (and back in). It's onlywhole blood where unassisted venous pressure (plus gravity) is used.

I don't think they pumped my blood in or out, the one time Idonated platelets. But that was forty-ish years ago.

Pretty sure they did. That's how apheresis works. I didn't start plateletdonations until a few years ago, though.

Post by Carl FinkI have no idea how it would work for you, but for plasma, double-RBC, orplatelet donations they actively pump the blood out (and back in). It's onlywhole blood where unassisted venous pressure (plus gravity) is used.

I don't think they pumped my blood in or out, the one time Idonated platelets. But that was forty-ish years ago.

Pretty sure they did. That's how apheresis works. I didn't start plateletdonations until a few years ago, though.

... I had an unexpected appointment Friday to have 2 units of blood infused.(Like, I found out Thursday.) It went slowly, around 9:30am-3:30pm for theactual IV-dripping-in part.

The doctor told me I had been walking around with something like 1/3 of thenecessary, and he couldn't quite see how I _had_ been walking around...

Dave, I feel a good deal less exhausted now, along with slightly lesstemperature-sensitive and off-balance

--\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flowerIt's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to seeLove is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

Post by Carl FinkI have no idea how it would work for you, but for plasma, double-RBC, orplatelet donations they actively pump the blood out (and back in). It's onlywhole blood where unassisted venous pressure (plus gravity) is used.

I don't think they pumped my blood in or out, the one time Idonated platelets. But that was forty-ish years ago.

Pretty sure they did. That's how apheresis works. I didn't start plateletdonations until a few years ago, though.

... I had an unexpected appointment Friday to have 2 units of blood infused.(Like, I found out Thursday.) It went slowly, around 9:30am-3:30pm for theactual IV-dripping-in part.The doctor told me I had been walking around with something like 1/3 of thenecessary, and he couldn't quite see how I _had_ been walking around...

Gosh. Hope you get the underlying issue sorted. I'm impressed you've notonly been moving around but wisecracking in the usual way here,generally wit is one of the things that goes when you're short on oxygentransport!

Post by Carl FinkI have no idea how it would work for you, but for plasma, double-RBC, orplatelet donations they actively pump the blood out (and back in). It's onlywhole blood where unassisted venous pressure (plus gravity) is used.

I don't think they pumped my blood in or out, the one time Idonated platelets. But that was forty-ish years ago.

Pretty sure they did. That's how apheresis works. I didn't start plateletdonations until a few years ago, though.

... I had an unexpected appointment Friday to have 2 units of blood infused.(Like, I found out Thursday.) It went slowly, around 9:30am-3:30pm for theactual IV-dripping-in part.The doctor told me I had been walking around with something like 1/3 of thenecessary, and he couldn't quite see how I _had_ been walking around...Dave, I feel a good deal less exhausted now, along with slightly lesstemperature-sensitive and off-balance

Well, good!

I don't know how you were walking around like that either, but Idon't have an M.D. after my name.

Post by David DeLaney... I had an unexpected appointment Friday to have 2 units of blood infused.(Like, I found out Thursday.) It went slowly, around 9:30am-3:30pm for theactual IV-dripping-in part.The doctor told me I had been walking around with something like 1/3 of thenecessary, and he couldn't quite see how I _had_ been walking around...Dave, I feel a good deal less exhausted now, along with slightly lesstemperature-sensitive and off-balance

We have a lot of redundant blood. That's how folks like Dorothy and I getaway with donation. Glad you feel better.

2 units of red cells? They almost never transfuse whole blood any more.

Post by David DeLaney... I had an unexpected appointment Friday to have 2 units of blood infused.(Like, I found out Thursday.) It went slowly, around 9:30am-3:30pm for theactual IV-dripping-in part.The doctor told me I had been walking around with something like 1/3 of thenecessary, and he couldn't quite see how I _had_ been walking around...Dave, I feel a good deal less exhausted now, along with slightly lesstemperature-sensitive and off-balance

We have a lot of redundant blood. That's how folks like Dorothy and I getaway with donation. Glad you feel better.

Well ... they won't let me donate any more. (I'm turning 77 thisweek.) But before I stopped, I got my little certificate forhaving donated five gallons, so I feel I've done my bit.

Post by David DeLaney... I had an unexpected appointment Friday to have 2 units of blood infused.(Like, I found out Thursday.) It went slowly, around 9:30am-3:30pm for theactual IV-dripping-in part.The doctor told me I had been walking around with something like 1/3 of thenecessary, and he couldn't quite see how I _had_ been walking around...Dave, I feel a good deal less exhausted now, along with slightly lesstemperature-sensitive and off-balance

We have a lot of redundant blood. That's how folks like Dorothy and I getaway with donation. Glad you feel better.

Well ... they won't let me donate any more. (I'm turning 77 thisweek.) But before I stopped, I got my little certificate forhaving donated five gallons, so I feel I've done my bit.

That's what I was referring to--you mentioned the five gallon thing earlier.

Post by David DeLaney... I had an unexpected appointment Friday to have 2 units of blood infused.(Like, I found out Thursday.) It went slowly, around 9:30am-3:30pm for theactual IV-dripping-in part.The doctor told me I had been walking around with something like 1/3 of thenecessary, and he couldn't quite see how I _had_ been walking around...Dave, I feel a good deal less exhausted now, along with slightly lesstemperature-sensitive and off-balance

We have a lot of redundant blood. That's how folks like Dorothy and I getaway with donation. Glad you feel better.

Well ... they won't let me donate any more. (I'm turning 77 thisweek.) But before I stopped, I got my little certificate forhaving donated five gallons, so I feel I've done my bit.

That's what I was referring to--you mentioned the five gallon thing earlier.

Yeah ... but mind you, it was one pint at a time every couple ofmonths. :)

Post by David DeLaney... I had an unexpected appointment Friday to have 2 units of blood infused.(Like, I found out Thursday.) It went slowly, around 9:30am-3:30pm for theactual IV-dripping-in part.The doctor told me I had been walking around with something like 1/3 of thenecessary, and he couldn't quite see how I _had_ been walking around...Dave, I feel a good deal less exhausted now, along with slightly lesstemperature-sensitive and off-balance

We have a lot of redundant blood. That's how folks like Dorothy and I getaway with donation. Glad you feel better.

Well ... they won't let me donate any more. (I'm turning 77 thisweek.) But before I stopped, I got my little certificate forhaving donated five gallons, so I feel I've done my bit.

I have the five gallon coffee cup. I did sneak a six gallon coffee cupout before they made me quit but promptly dropped it on a tile floor.

Post by David DeLaney... I had an unexpected appointment Friday to have 2 units of blood infused.(Like, I found out Thursday.) It went slowly, around 9:30am-3:30pm for theactual IV-dripping-in part.The doctor told me I had been walking around with something like 1/3 of thenecessary, and he couldn't quite see how I _had_ been walking around...Dave, I feel a good deal less exhausted now, along with slightly lesstemperature-sensitive and off-balance

We have a lot of redundant blood. That's how folks like Dorothy and I getaway with donation. Glad you feel better.2 units of red cells? They almost never transfuse whole blood any more.

I asked that myself, and yes, packed red corpuscles.

Dave, then Monday i got infused with IRON. ... any resultant powers are takingtheir own sweet time showing up, though

--\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flowerIt's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to seeLove is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

Post by David DeLaney... I had an unexpected appointment Friday to have 2 units of blood infused.(Like, I found out Thursday.) It went slowly, around 9:30am-3:30pm for theactual IV-dripping-in part.The doctor told me I had been walking around with something like 1/3 of thenecessary, and he couldn't quite see how I _had_ been walking around...Dave, I feel a good deal less exhausted now, along with slightly lesstemperature-sensitive and off-balance

We have a lot of redundant blood. That's how folks like Dorothy and I getaway with donation. Glad you feel better.2 units of red cells? They almost never transfuse whole blood any more.

I asked that myself, and yes, packed red corpuscles.Dave, then Monday i got infused with IRON. ... any resultant powers are takingtheir own sweet time showing up, though

I note that those special powers only show up in 12 to 29 year olds inthe documentary texts. You are a little ... beyond that age.

Post by Carl FinkI have no idea how it would work for you, but for plasma, double-RBC, orplatelet donations they actively pump the blood out (and back in). It's onlywhole blood where unassisted venous pressure (plus gravity) is used.

I don't think they pumped my blood in or out, the one time Idonated platelets. But that was forty-ish years ago.

Pretty sure they did. That's how apheresis works. I didn't start plateletdonations until a few years ago, though.

... I had an unexpected appointment Friday to have 2 units of blood infused.(Like, I found out Thursday.) It went slowly, around 9:30am-3:30pm for theactual IV-dripping-in part.The doctor told me I had been walking around with something like 1/3 of thenecessary, and he couldn't quite see how I _had_ been walking around...Dave, I feel a good deal less exhausted now, along with slightly lesstemperature-sensitive and off-balance

Dude ! Anemia is not a good thing for a long life.

My mother has has had 14 or 15 pints infused in the last 8 weeks since afailed hip surgery and two subsequent surgeries. Not good at age 77.

I don't think they pumped my blood in or out, the one time Idonated platelets. But that was forty-ish years ago.

Pretty sure they did. That's how apheresis works. I didn't start plateletdonations until a few years ago, though.

... I had an unexpected appointment Friday to have 2 units of blood infused.(Like, I found out Thursday.) It went slowly, around 9:30am-3:30pm for theactual IV-dripping-in part.The doctor told me I had been walking around with something like 1/3 of thenecessary, and he couldn't quite see how I _had_ been walking around...Dave, I feel a good deal less exhausted now, along with slightly lesstemperature-sensitive and off-balance

Dude ! Anemia is not a good thing for a long life.My mother has has had 14 or 15 pints infused in the last 8 weeks since afailed hip surgery and two subsequent surgeries. Not good at age 77.

She, and you, have my profoundest sympathies. I tripped and fell ontoa concrete landing last Friday, and while I was fortunate enough notto break any major or even minor bones, I've been feeling fragile eversince, and *both* my hands hurt, not just the one I stubbed onthe concrete. (You should have seen it the day after: the middlefingertip swelled to twice its natural size and turned purple.It looked like a ripe grape. Getting better now.)

I don't think they pumped my blood in or out, the one time Idonated platelets. But that was forty-ish years ago.

Pretty sure they did. That's how apheresis works. I didn't start plateletdonations until a few years ago, though.

... I had an unexpected appointment Friday to have 2 units of blood infused.(Like, I found out Thursday.) It went slowly, around 9:30am-3:30pm for theactual IV-dripping-in part.The doctor told me I had been walking around with something like 1/3 of thenecessary, and he couldn't quite see how I _had_ been walking around...Dave, I feel a good deal less exhausted now, along with slightly lesstemperature-sensitive and off-balance

Dude ! Anemia is not a good thing for a long life.My mother has has had 14 or 15 pints infused in the last 8 weeks since afailed hip surgery and two subsequent surgeries. Not good at age 77.

She, and you, have my profoundest sympathies. I tripped and fell ontoa concrete landing last Friday, and while I was fortunate enough notto break any major or even minor bones, I've been feeling fragile eversince, and *both* my hands hurt, not just the one I stubbed onthe concrete. (You should have seen it the day after: the middlefingertip swelled to twice its natural size and turned purple.It looked like a ripe grape. Getting better now.)

I've decided that one does not bounce anymore after age 50. Take stepscarefully !

Post by Lynn McGuireI've decided that one does not bounce anymore after age 50. Take stepscarefully !

I have been shortening all my skirts.

My issue is not so much with the falling - yeah, it's a shock and I'll beachy and bruised for a couple days and if I'm LUCKY that exact same rib won'tcrack again, but most of the time I manage to land on my back ... which ispadded some.

My issue is that I can't get up by myself any more; my ankles don't bend, andmy knees are not at all strong in lifting configuration, though they standstraight pretty well. I need my butt about 2 feet off the floor before I cancurl up from there to standing, any more.

Dave, don't get old, kids

ps: kneeling, and squatting, are right out as well :(

--\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flowerIt's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to seeLove is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

Post by Lynn McGuireI've decided that one does not bounce anymore after age 50. Take stepscarefully !

I have been shortening all my skirts.

My issue is not so much with the falling - yeah, it's a shock and I'll beachy and bruised for a couple days and if I'm LUCKY that exact same rib won'tcrack again, but most of the time I manage to land on my back ... which ispadded some.My issue is that I can't get up by myself any more; my ankles don't bend, andmy knees are not at all strong in lifting configuration, though they standstraight pretty well. I need my butt about 2 feet off the floor before I cancurl up from there to standing, any more.

Yeah. When I fell last Friday (finger looking better, stillfeeling fragile), I had to call for Hal to help me get up ... butalthough when we were young he could pick me up and carry mearound, he can't now, and I had to get my feet down a couple ofsteps, so that they were under me, before I could pull myself upon his outstretched arm. My arms are stronger than my legs, butthat's not saying much.

Yeah, but consider the alternative. ("With proper help," saidHumpty Dumpty, "you might have left off at seven.") I figure Ineed to live at least another seven years, by which time mygrandson will be eighteen and WON'T NEED DAY CARE.

I can still get down on hands and knees if Absolutely Necessary(like, something fell underneath the bed and I have to retrieveit), but the acrobatics I have to go through to get up againare ridiculous to behold (think of a fallen sloth trying to getback up onto his tree).

I don't think they pumped my blood in or out, the one time Idonated platelets. But that was forty-ish years ago.

Pretty sure they did. That's how apheresis works. I didn't start plateletdonations until a few years ago, though.

... I had an unexpected appointment Friday to have 2 units of blood infused.(Like, I found out Thursday.) It went slowly, around 9:30am-3:30pm for theactual IV-dripping-in part.The doctor told me I had been walking around with something like 1/3 of thenecessary, and he couldn't quite see how I _had_ been walking around...Dave, I feel a good deal less exhausted now, along with slightly lesstemperature-sensitive and off-balance

Dude ! Anemia is not a good thing for a long life.My mother has has had 14 or 15 pints infused in the last 8 weeks since afailed hip surgery and two subsequent surgeries. Not good at age 77.

She, and you, have my profoundest sympathies. I tripped and fell ontoa concrete landing last Friday, and while I was fortunate enough notto break any major or even minor bones, I've been feeling fragile eversince, and *both* my hands hurt, not just the one I stubbed onthe concrete. (You should have seen it the day after: the middlefingertip swelled to twice its natural size and turned purple.It looked like a ripe grape. Getting better now.)

I've decided that one does not bounce anymore after age 50. Take stepscarefully !

Most people learn that by the time they reach 30. ;)

--Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservationinstinct are running screaming.

I don't think they pumped my blood in or out, the one time Idonated platelets. But that was forty-ish years ago.

Pretty sure they did. That's how apheresis works. I didn't start plateletdonations until a few years ago, though.

... I had an unexpected appointment Friday to have 2 units of blood infused.(Like, I found out Thursday.) It went slowly, around 9:30am-3:30pm for theactual IV-dripping-in part.The doctor told me I had been walking around with something like 1/3 of thenecessary, and he couldn't quite see how I _had_ been walking around...Dave, I feel a good deal less exhausted now, along with slightly less temperature-sensitive and off-balance

Dude ! Anemia is not a good thing for a long life.My mother has has had 14 or 15 pints infused in the last 8 weeks since afailed hip surgery and two subsequent surgeries. Not good at age 77.

She, and you, have my profoundest sympathies. I tripped and fell ontoa concrete landing last Friday, and while I was fortunate enough notto break any major or even minor bones, I've been feeling fragile eversince, and *both* my hands hurt, not just the one I stubbed onthe concrete. (You should have seen it the day after: the middlefingertip swelled to twice its natural size and turned purple.It looked like a ripe grape. Getting better now.)

I've decided that one does not bounce anymore after age 50. Take stepscarefully !

Most people learn that by the time they reach 30. ;)

30 is just the first stage of not bouncing anymore. 50 is the finalstage. I managed to fall last Dec 30 with my left leg under my righthip which was painful beyond belief but I did not break anything (I wasand still am 58).

Of course, I shattered my right humerus one inch above the elbow at theage of 5. So I disproved the rule. And, six weeks of traction made meslothful for life !

I don't think they pumped my blood in or out, the one time Idonated platelets. But that was forty-ish years ago.

Pretty sure they did. That's how apheresis works. I didn't start plateletdonations until a few years ago, though.

... I had an unexpected appointment Friday to have 2 units of blood infused.(Like, I found out Thursday.) It went slowly, around 9:30am-3:30pm for theactual IV-dripping-in part.The doctor told me I had been walking around with something like 1/3 of thenecessary, and he couldn't quite see how I _had_ been walking around...Dave, I feel a good deal less exhausted now, along with slightly less temperature-sensitive and off-balance

Dude ! Anemia is not a good thing for a long life.My mother has has had 14 or 15 pints infused in the last 8 weeks since afailed hip surgery and two subsequent surgeries. Not good at age 77.

She, and you, have my profoundest sympathies. I tripped and fell ontoa concrete landing last Friday, and while I was fortunate enough notto break any major or even minor bones, I've been feeling fragile eversince, and *both* my hands hurt, not just the one I stubbed onthe concrete. (You should have seen it the day after: the middlefingertip swelled to twice its natural size and turned purple.It looked like a ripe grape. Getting better now.)

I've decided that one does not bounce anymore after age 50. Take stepscarefully !

Most people learn that by the time they reach 30. ;)

30 is just the first stage of not bouncing anymore. 50 is the finalstage. I managed to fall last Dec 30 with my left leg under my righthip which was painful beyond belief but I did not break anything (I wasand still am 58).Of course, I shattered my right humerus one inch above the elbow at theage of 5. So I disproved the rule. And, six weeks of traction made meslothful for life !

Ten years ago I dumped my motorcycle on the Trans Labrador and I'm notsure what all I damaged. Got back on and rode another 400 milesbefore I dumped it again, then rode home. I would have been 57.

I don't think they pumped my blood in or out, the one time Idonated platelets. But that was forty-ish years ago.

Pretty sure they did. That's how apheresis works. I didn't start plateletdonations until a few years ago, though.

... I had an unexpected appointment Friday to have 2 units of blood infused.(Like, I found out Thursday.) It went slowly, around 9:30am-3:30pm for theactual IV-dripping-in part.The doctor told me I had been walking around with something like 1/3 of thenecessary, and he couldn't quite see how I _had_ been walking around...Dave, I feel a good deal less exhausted now, along with slightly lesstemperature-sensitive and off-balance

Dude ! Anemia is not a good thing for a long life.My mother has has had 14 or 15 pints infused in the last 8 weeks since afailed hip surgery and two subsequent surgeries. Not good at age 77.

She, and you, have my profoundest sympathies. I tripped and fell ontoa concrete landing last Friday, and while I was fortunate enough notto break any major or even minor bones, I've been feeling fragile eversince, and *both* my hands hurt, not just the one I stubbed onthe concrete. (You should have seen it the day after: the middlefingertip swelled to twice its natural size and turned purple.It looked like a ripe grape. Getting better now.)

I've decided that one does not bounce anymore after age 50. Take stepscarefully !

Most people learn that by the time they reach 30. ;)

30 is just the first stage of not bouncing anymore. 50 is the finalstage. I managed to fall last Dec 30 with my left leg under my righthip which was painful beyond belief but I did not break anything (I wasand still am 58).Of course, I shattered my right humerus one inch above the elbow at theage of 5. So I disproved the rule. And, six weeks of traction made meslothful for life !

When I was somewhere between 10 and 14 I was on a hike where there was adead, fallen tree in a clearing. Lots of branches parallel to theground only a few feet apart. Being of the appropriate age and gendermy companions and I proceeded to climb all over it. I was standing onthe seconded highest branch, my hands resting on the highest at aboutwaist height, probably about twenty feet up when the branch under myfeed broke.

Think human Pachinko game.

I don't remember the falling part but I do remember after reaching theground hearing one of my companions voices calling for my father (whowas the chaperone for this little outing) fading. Presumably as he wasrunning up the trail to fetch him. No sight or tactile sensation.

A short time later I came to and was able to get up and walk normally.No broken bones or any other serious injuries.

--Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservationinstinct are running screaming.

I have NO idea what happened, and if my doctor does he hasn't let me knowyet. (I did get a call from my doctor's office Monday with them mildly franticabout trying to get ahold of me and let me know it needed to be done; I gentlytold them the tasty tasty boold had been imported Friday and I was about anhour away from getting irony in liquid form as well. They calmed down. I didnot remember to ask if they knew why it had become necessary.)

Post by Lynn McGuireMy mother has has had 14 or 15 pints infused in the last 8 weeks since afailed hip surgery and two subsequent surgeries. Not good at age 77.

Not really good at any age, I'd think, but yeah, at 77 almost any procedurehas a quantity of not-good attached.

Dave, I will be mirror digits myself this year, but not 77

--\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flowerIt's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to seeLove is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

I know, right!?I have NO idea what happened, and if my doctor does he hasn't let me knowyet. (I did get a call from my doctor's office Monday with them mildly franticabout trying to get ahold of me and let me know it needed to be done; I gentlytold them the tasty tasty boold had been imported Friday and I was about anhour away from getting irony in liquid form as well. They calmed down. I didnot remember to ask if they knew why it had become necessary.)

Post by Lynn McGuireMy mother has has had 14 or 15 pints infused in the last 8 weeks since afailed hip surgery and two subsequent surgeries. Not good at age 77.

Not really good at any age, I'd think, but yeah, at 77 almost any procedurehas a quantity of not-good attached.Dave, I will be mirror digits myself this year, but not 77

I just turned 77 today. Hal asked me what I would like for mybirthday, and I said, "I would like you to get the stuff from theback of the cab (assorted emergency supplies, which have beensitting around the house for a couple months so the grandsoncould ride in the back) OFF THE LIVING ROOM FLOOR ALREADY." Hesaid he would.

I know, right!?I have NO idea what happened, and if my doctor does he hasn't let me knowyet. (I did get a call from my doctor's office Monday with them mildly franticabout trying to get ahold of me and let me know it needed to be done; I gentlytold them the tasty tasty boold had been imported Friday and I was about anhour away from getting irony in liquid form as well. They calmed down. I didnot remember to ask if they knew why it had become necessary.)

Post by Lynn McGuireMy mother has has had 14 or 15 pints infused in the last 8 weeks since afailed hip surgery and two subsequent surgeries. Not good at age 77.

Not really good at any age, I'd think, but yeah, at 77 almost any procedurehas a quantity of not-good attached.Dave, I will be mirror digits myself this year, but not 77

I just turned 77 today. Hal asked me what I would like for mybirthday, and I said, "I would like you to get the stuff from theback of the cab (assorted emergency supplies, which have beensitting around the house for a couple months so the grandsoncould ride in the back) OFF THE LIVING ROOM FLOOR ALREADY." Hesaid he would.

Heh. Happy Birthday ! My mother is 77 and has been in a hospital for8+ weeks now so, stay away from hospitals, people die in those places.

Post by David DeLaneytold them the tasty tasty boold had been imported Friday and I was about anhour away from getting irony in liquid form as well. They calmed down. I didnot remember to ask if they knew why it had become necessary.)

Post by Lynn McGuireMy mother has has had 14 or 15 pints infused in the last 8 weeks since afailed hip surgery and two subsequent surgeries. Not good at age 77.

Not really good at any age, I'd think, but yeah, at 77 almost any procedurehas a quantity of not-good attached.Dave, I will be mirror digits myself this year, but not 77

I just turned 77 today. Hal asked me what I would like for mybirthday, and I said, "I would like you to get the stuff from theback of the cab (assorted emergency supplies, which have beensitting around the house for a couple months so the grandsoncould ride in the back) OFF THE LIVING ROOM FLOOR ALREADY." Hesaid he would.

Heh. Happy Birthday ! My mother is 77 and has been in a hospital for8+ weeks now,

I kind of like hospitals; they are clean and efficient andsomebody else has to do the housework.

But the last time I was in, to have a rambunctious parathyroidremoved, they had me stay overnight and the kitchen was advisedthat I was diabetic and needed a low-carb breakfast.

Their idea of a low-carb breakfast (they conveniently includedthe carb counts for every item) was about 65. My idea of alow-carb breakfast is 10. I managed to pick and choose aselection that was safe to eat.

Post by David DeLaneytold them the tasty tasty boold had been imported Friday and I was about anhour away from getting irony in liquid form as well. They calmed down. I didnot remember to ask if they knew why it had become necessary.)

Post by Lynn McGuireMy mother has has had 14 or 15 pints infused in the last 8 weeks since afailed hip surgery and two subsequent surgeries. Not good at age 77.

Not really good at any age, I'd think, but yeah, at 77 almost any procedurehas a quantity of not-good attached.Dave, I will be mirror digits myself this year, but not 77

I just turned 77 today. Hal asked me what I would like for mybirthday, and I said, "I would like you to get the stuff from theback of the cab (assorted emergency supplies, which have beensitting around the house for a couple months so the grandsoncould ride in the back) OFF THE LIVING ROOM FLOOR ALREADY." Hesaid he would.

Heh. Happy Birthday ! My mother is 77 and has been in a hospital for8+ weeks now,

When they don't die at home.I kind of like hospitals; they are clean and efficient andsomebody else has to do the housework.But the last time I was in, to have a rambunctious parathyroidremoved, they had me stay overnight and the kitchen was advisedthat I was diabetic and needed a low-carb breakfast.Their idea of a low-carb breakfast (they conveniently includedthe carb counts for every item) was about 65. My idea of alow-carb breakfast is 10. I managed to pick and choose aselection that was safe to eat.

When I had heart surgery last year, I had them bring me scrambled eggsfor breakfast. They brought me scrambled egg whites. Freakinghorrible. Just the look of them was nasty.

Post by Lynn McGuireMy mother has has had 14 or 15 pints infused in the last 8 weeks since afailed hip surgery and two subsequent surgeries. Not good at age 77.

Not really good at any age, I'd think, but yeah, at 77 almost any procedurehas a quantity of not-good attached.Dave, I will be mirror digits myself this year, but not 77

I just turned 77 today. Hal asked me what I would like for mybirthday, and I said, "I would like you to get the stuff from theback of the cab (assorted emergency supplies, which have beensitting around the house for a couple months so the grandsoncould ride in the back) OFF THE LIVING ROOM FLOOR ALREADY." Hesaid he would.

Heh. Happy Birthday ! My mother is 77 and has been in a hospital for8+ weeks now,

When they don't die at home.I kind of like hospitals; they are clean and efficient andsomebody else has to do the housework.But the last time I was in, to have a rambunctious parathyroidremoved, they had me stay overnight and the kitchen was advisedthat I was diabetic and needed a low-carb breakfast.Their idea of a low-carb breakfast (they conveniently includedthe carb counts for every item) was about 65. My idea of alow-carb breakfast is 10. I managed to pick and choose aselection that was safe to eat.

When I had heart surgery last year, I had them bring me scrambled eggsfor breakfast. They brought me scrambled egg whites. Freakinghorrible. Just the look of them was nasty.

Yes, sounds like it. Were you on a low-fat diet? The yolks ofeggs are mostly fat; the whites mostly protein.

Post by Lynn McGuireWhen I had heart surgery last year, I had them bring me scrambled eggsfor breakfast. They brought me scrambled egg whites. Freakinghorrible. Just the look of them was nasty.

Yes, sounds like it. Were you on a low-fat diet? The yolks ofeggs are mostly fat; the whites mostly protein.

No idea. My heart is all screwed up (turns out your right coronaryartery should be eight inches long, mine is two inches, who knew ?).You can poke a finger down my left coronary artery, it is so big. Andthe back side of my heart is dead (no blood flow) since the rightcoronary artery does not feed it. But my heart is only 30% enlarged.

Still walking around at age 58 and proud of it. But they did want me tolose 40 lbs. And still do.

-reginald-hill/9780307372413Without looking, I suspect this is the same thing Professor Quirrell impliedcould stop people from acting so annoyingly, in HP&tMoR...Dave, also see that one Tom Lehrer song

What song?There's no such thing as a cure-all. Loss of consciousness is one ofmany vaccine product side effects. Here's some anecdotal stories aboutbad outcomes. Most patients were lucky and suffered only a /near/ deathexperience.

Anecdotal evidence.

Post by D B DavisCase 1 describes a 17-year-old boy who developed syncope 10minutes after receiving tetanus-diphtheria and measles, mumps,

All you need to get syncope is dehydration and/or low BP. As all the subsequentinjuries were related to the syncope, and the only linkage to the vaccinationis time-based, I wouldn't draw any conclusions from this anecdotal evidence;particularly any conclusions with respect to viability of any particularvaccine.

The causality conclusion appears near the bottom of the link that gotdeleted. https://www.nap.edu/read/13164/chapter/14

The latency, of 15 minutes or less, between injection of avaccine and the development of syncope in many of the casesdescribed above suggests vasovagal syncope as the mechanism.

The committee assesses the mechanistic evidenceregarding an association between the injectionof a vaccine and syncope as strong based on 35cases presenting definitive clinical evidence.

Causality Conclusion

Conclusion 12.3: The evidence convincingly supports acausal relationship between the injection of a vaccineand syncope.

-reginald-hill/9780307372413Without looking, I suspect this is the same thing Professor Quirrell impliedcould stop people from acting so annoyingly, in HP&tMoR...Dave, also see that one Tom Lehrer song

What song?There's no such thing as a cure-all. Loss of consciousness is one ofmany vaccine product side effects. Here's some anecdotal stories aboutbad outcomes. Most patients were lucky and suffered only a /near/ deathexperience.

Anecdotal evidence.

Post by D B DavisCase 1 describes a 17-year-old boy who developed syncope 10minutes after receiving tetanus-diphtheria and measles, mumps,

All you need to get syncope is dehydration and/or low BP. As all the subsequentinjuries were related to the syncope, and the only linkage to the vaccinationis time-based, I wouldn't draw any conclusions from this anecdotal evidence;particularly any conclusions with respect to viability of any particularvaccine.

The causality conclusion appears near the bottom of the link that gotdeleted. https://www.nap.edu/read/13164/chapter/14The latency, of 15 minutes or less, between injection of avaccine and the development of syncope in many of the casesdescribed above suggests vasovagal syncope as the mechanism.The committee assesses the mechanistic evidenceregarding an association between the injectionof a vaccine and syncope as strong based on 35cases presenting definitive clinical evidence.Causality ConclusionConclusion 12.3: The evidence convincingly supports acausal relationship between the injection of a vaccineand syncope.

So stay lying down for 15 minutes after getting a shot.

--Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservationinstinct are running screaming.

Post by William Hydecould stop people from acting so annoyingly, in HP&tMoR...Dave, also see that one Tom Lehrer song

What song?There's no such thing as a cure-all. Loss of consciousness is one ofmany vaccine product side effects. Here's some anecdotal stories aboutbad outcomes. Most patients were lucky and suffered only a /near/ deathexperience.

Anecdotal evidence.

Post by D B DavisCase 1 describes a 17-year-old boy who developed syncope 10minutes after receiving tetanus-diphtheria and measles, mumps,

Post by Scott Lurndalinjuries were related to the syncope, and the only linkage to the vaccinationis time-based, I wouldn't draw any conclusions from this anecdotal evidence;particularly any conclusions with respect to viability of any particularvaccine.

The causality conclusion appears near the bottom of the link that gotdeleted. https://www.nap.edu/read/13164/chapter/14The latency, of 15 minutes or less, between injection of avaccine and the development of syncope in many of the casesdescribed above suggests vasovagal syncope as the mechanism.The committee assesses the mechanistic evidenceregarding an association between the injectionof a vaccine and syncope as strong based on 35cases presenting definitive clinical evidence.Causality ConclusionConclusion 12.3: The evidence convincingly supports acausal relationship between the injection of a vaccineand syncope.

Post by William Hydecould stop people from acting so annoyingly, in HP&tMoR...Dave, also see that one Tom Lehrer song

What song?There's no such thing as a cure-all. Loss of consciousness is one ofmany vaccine product side effects. Here's some anecdotal stories aboutbad outcomes. Most patients were lucky and suffered only a /near/ deathexperience.

Anecdotal evidence.

Post by D B DavisCase 1 describes a 17-year-old boy who developed syncope 10minutes after receiving tetanus-diphtheria and measles, mumps,

Post by Scott Lurndalinjuries were related to the syncope, and the only linkage to the vaccinationis time-based, I wouldn't draw any conclusions from this anecdotal evidence;particularly any conclusions with respect to viability of any particularvaccine.

The causality conclusion appears near the bottom of the link that gotdeleted. https://www.nap.edu/read/13164/chapter/14The latency, of 15 minutes or less, between injection of avaccine and the development of syncope in many of the casesdescribed above suggests vasovagal syncope as the mechanism.The committee assesses the mechanistic evidenceregarding an association between the injectionof a vaccine and syncope as strong based on 35cases presenting definitive clinical evidence.Causality ConclusionConclusion 12.3: The evidence convincingly supports acausal relationship between the injection of a vaccineand syncope.

So stay lying down for 15 minutes after getting a shot.

And drink water.

Treat it like a blood donation, demand a glass of juice and a cookie! :)

--Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservationinstinct are running screaming.

could stop people from acting so annoyingly, in HP&tMoR...Dave, also see that one Tom Lehrer song

What song?There's no such thing as a cure-all. Loss of consciousness is one ofmany vaccine product side effects. Here's some anecdotal stories aboutbad outcomes. Most patients were lucky and suffered only a /near/ deathexperience.

Post by Scott Lurndalinjuries were related to the syncope, and the only linkage to the vaccinationis time-based, I wouldn't draw any conclusions from this anecdotal evidence;particularly any conclusions with respect to viability of any particularvaccine.

The causality conclusion appears near the bottom of the link that gotdeleted. https://www.nap.edu/read/13164/chapter/14 The latency, of 15 minutes or less, between injection of a vaccine and the development of syncope in many of the cases described above suggests vasovagal syncope as the mechanism. The committee assesses the mechanistic evidence regarding an association between the injection of a vaccine and syncope as strong based on 35 cases presenting definitive clinical evidence. Causality Conclusion Conclusion 12.3: The evidence convincingly supports a causal relationship between the injection of a vaccine and syncope.

So stay lying down for 15 minutes after getting a shot.

And drink water.

Treat it like a blood donation, demand a glass of juice and a cookie! :)

Just had my FluVax shot at work today - the nurse had lollipops! :->

Cheers,Gary B-)

--When men talk to their friends, they insult each other.They don't really mean it.When women talk to their friends, they compliment each other.They don't mean it either.

-reginald-hill/9780307372413Without looking, I suspect this is the same thing Professor Quirrell impliedcould stop people from acting so annoyingly, in HP&tMoR...Dave, also see that one Tom Lehrer song

What song?There's no such thing as a cure-all. Loss of consciousness is one ofmany vaccine product side effects. Here's some anecdotal stories aboutbad outcomes. Most patients were lucky and suffered only a /near/ deathexperience.

Anecdotal evidence.

Post by D B DavisCase 1 describes a 17-year-old boy who developed syncope 10minutes after receiving tetanus-diphtheria and measles, mumps,

All you need to get syncope is dehydration and/or low BP. As all the subsequentinjuries were related to the syncope, and the only linkage to the vaccinationis time-based, I wouldn't draw any conclusions from this anecdotal evidence;particularly any conclusions with respect to viability of any particularvaccine.

The causality conclusion appears near the bottom of the link that gotdeleted. https://www.nap.edu/read/13164/chapter/14The latency, of 15 minutes or less, between injection of avaccine and the development of syncope in many of the casesdescribed above suggests vasovagal syncope as the mechanism.The committee assesses the mechanistic evidenceregarding an association between the injectionof a vaccine and syncope as strong based on 35cases presenting definitive clinical evidence.Causality ConclusionConclusion 12.3: The evidence convincingly supports acausal relationship between the injection of a vaccineand syncope.

Fainting isn't the only cause of falling down,especially in children. It's cute that theseare specifically cases that fell down and got hurt,sometimes pretty badly, and the one saved for last died.Sufficiently cute that my made-it-up sense is tinglingagain, but I leave that to more experienced sciencereaders to decide. Indeed, legitimate, theoreticallyunbiased science papers still follow Sturgeon's Lawof ninety percent being of poor quality.

-reginald-hill/9780307372413Without looking, I suspect this is the same thing Professor Quirrell impliedcould stop people from acting so annoyingly, in HP&tMoR...Dave, also see that one Tom Lehrer song

What song?There's no such thing as a cure-all. Loss of consciousness is one ofmany vaccine product side effects. Here's some anecdotal stories aboutbad outcomes. Most patients were lucky and suffered only a /near/ deathexperience.

Anecdotal evidence.

Post by D B DavisCase 1 describes a 17-year-old boy who developed syncope 10minutes after receiving tetanus-diphtheria and measles, mumps,

All you need to get syncope is dehydration and/or low BP. As all the subsequentinjuries were related to the syncope, and the only linkage to the vaccinationis time-based, I wouldn't draw any conclusions from this anecdotal evidence;particularly any conclusions with respect to viability of any particularvaccine.

The causality conclusion appears near the bottom of the link that gotdeleted. https://www.nap.edu/read/13164/chapter/14The latency, of 15 minutes or less, between injection of avaccine and the development of syncope in many of the casesdescribed above suggests vasovagal syncope as the mechanism.The committee assesses the mechanistic evidenceregarding an association between the injectionof a vaccine and syncope as strong based on 35cases presenting definitive clinical evidence.Causality ConclusionConclusion 12.3: The evidence convincingly supports acausal relationship between the injection of a vaccineand syncope.

Fainting isn't the only cause of falling down,especially in children. It's cute that theseare specifically cases that fell down and got hurt,sometimes pretty badly, and the one saved for last died.Sufficiently cute that my made-it-up sense is tinglingagain, but I leave that to more experienced sciencereaders to decide. Indeed, legitimate, theoreticallyunbiased science papers still follow Sturgeon's Lawof ninety percent being of poor quality.

Note that just ten studies were identified over a ~30 year period, andonly two of those had any useful inferences to be drawn, and one of themwas suggestive but not evidential enough. You can read the linkyourself, that section isn't long.

This is very much the sort of thing that antivaxxers bring up asevidence "people harmed by vaccinations!" without saying "Possibly fourpeople, compared to 160,000 who would have died of diphtheria!".

Cheers - Jaimie

--Once I drove so fast that my friend, who was pregnant, started havingLorentz contractions.

-reginald-hill/9780307372413Without looking, I suspect this is the same thing Professor Quirrell impliedcould stop people from acting so annoyingly, in HP&tMoR...Dave, also see that one Tom Lehrer song

What song?There's no such thing as a cure-all. Loss of consciousness is one ofmany vaccine product side effects. Here's some anecdotal stories aboutbad outcomes. Most patients were lucky and suffered only a /near/ deathexperience.

Anecdotal evidence.

Post by D B DavisCase 1 describes a 17-year-old boy who developed syncope 10minutes after receiving tetanus-diphtheria and measles, mumps,

All you need to get syncope is dehydration and/or low BP. As all the subsequentinjuries were related to the syncope, and the only linkage to the vaccinationis time-based, I wouldn't draw any conclusions from this anecdotal evidence;particularly any conclusions with respect to viability of any particularvaccine.

The causality conclusion appears near the bottom of the link that gotdeleted. https://www.nap.edu/read/13164/chapter/14The latency, of 15 minutes or less, between injection of avaccine and the development of syncope in many of the casesdescribed above suggests vasovagal syncope as the mechanism.The committee assesses the mechanistic evidenceregarding an association between the injectionof a vaccine and syncope as strong based on 35cases presenting definitive clinical evidence.Causality ConclusionConclusion 12.3: The evidence convincingly supports acausal relationship between the injection of a vaccineand syncope.?Thank you,

That's only true if it is shown that the incidence of faintingfollowing an injection of a vaccine is statistically higher than thatof fainting following the injection of, say, sterile saline.

Post by D B DavisCase 1 describes a 17-year-old boy who developed syncope 10minutes after receiving tetanus-diphtheria and measles, mumps,

All you need to get syncope is dehydration and/or low BP. As all the subsequentinjuries were related to the syncope, and the only linkage to the vaccinationis time-based, I wouldn't draw any conclusions from this anecdotal evidence;particularly any conclusions with respect to viability of any particularvaccine.

Sounds like what happened to me. Reported into 24th Infantry Division atFt. Stewart GA. Since it was part of the rapid deployment force it couldgo anywhere in the world so I needed about five vaccines. Medic pokedme, I passed out.

Probably had nothing to do that I'd just driven over 28 hours (withhelp) to get there, hadn't eaten for about 10 hours and at least a fewhours since I'd had more than a sip of water.

Post by David DeLaneyWithout looking, I suspect this is the same thing Professor Quirrell impliedcould stop people from acting so annoyingly, in HP&tMoR...Dave, also see that one Tom Lehrer song

What song?

_The Old Dope Peddler_.

Dave, will hum earwormingly for food

--\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flowerIt's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to seeLove is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

You can work a search engine, can't you?People who distrust vaccines, and avoid them for themselves or theirchildren.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_hesitancyThese louts are prmoting measles outbreaks here in the USA.-- Kevin R a.a #2310

But, but, but. Only people who haven't been vaccinated for measles willbreak out in measles, won't they?

Protection is not a hundred percent. Even after two doses efficacy is only 97%

Post by KevrobThese louts are prmoting measles outbreaks here in the USA.

But, but, but. Only people who haven't been vaccinated for measles willbreak out in measles, won't they?

Bzzzz X.

People who have been vaccinated but it didn't "take" completely can get it.

People who have been vaccinated a while ago and their particular immunesystem is set up so it 'forgets' after a while can get it.

People who have been recently vaccinated and are in the process of acquiringimmunity because THEIR personal immune system has it take a little longer, youguessed it, can get it.

(Also see this month's Scientific American for the unexpected health-promotingpossible side effect of certain live attenuated vaccines, still beingresearched.)

And, most importantly, the majority of "people who haven't been vaccinated"are going to be _children_ in the USA, because most schools won't letunvaccinated kids in, because they KNOW what happens if they do. And havingthe 3 per 1,000 or so rate of death, disfigurement, encephalitis, scarring,and otherwise requiring actual hospital stays that comes up when a person,kid or not, DOES get measles come up in your neighborhood invariably, thesedays, gets you local news publicity on the same order as your kid being theone in 1,000,000 or so who has an adverse reaction to the actual vaccine.

So get vaccinated ... for the CHILLLLDRUN!!1!. Please.

Dave, at least one other standard-vaccinated-for childhood disease changes thecry to "for the local pregnant women", ALSO not something you want the localnews vultures to get ahold of

ps: tl;dr - vaccination, like most medicine, is NOT PERFECT, because it usesbiology, which is well-known to do whatever the hell it wants to under certainconditions

--\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flowerIt's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to seeLove is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

Post by a***@gmail.comI enjoy reading stories about interstellar empires. There are several problems an interstellar empire must solve. How to travel light years in short times. How to govern a vast empire.In many SF empires, the government may be corrupt. This is realistic. All human institutions are tainted by our moral imperfections.Idealism rarely survives the real world of politics. The key thing realists must achieve is protection of human rights of its public, with economic growth and trade.

Of course, there is wide disagreement on the what those rights are, and are not, between polities and within them.

Perhaps there will be universal laws and rights that apply to everyone, and local rules that do not contradict universal rules.As the most basic universal rights, I propose sanctity of body and mind. That means your body and mind can never be violated.

Now define 'sanctity', 'body', 'mind', and 'violate'. This is not a joke.

So, alal is cool with anti-vaxers?

Forgive me, I don't know what anti-vaxers are.

Post by Peter TreiI'm curious how he applies this claim to a woman seeking abortion. Doesshe get it, or not? As it stands, its utterly ambiguous.pt

I over simplified things. A person should have full control over his or her mind and body. That means no unwanted medical procedures or unwanted implants on the body. That also means no unwanted use of hypnotic techniques on the mind, including blocking of memories, creation of false memories, or programming of behaviour. No physical torture.I am sure my preceding statement is imperfect, and we can discuss further if you want to, but I discuss as a retired IT consultant, and am not able to discuss as a legal professional.My concern is protecting the rights of my friends and I.

You carefully avoided answering my question.

How does it apply to a pregnant woman seeking an abortion?

In this case, an argument is often presented that the fetus is a person, witha person's rights (I don't agree this is true in all cases). If so, we havetwo people with mutually irreconcilable goes: The woman wished to be freeof the fetus, and the fetus (presumably) wants continued life.

Post by a***@gmail.comI enjoy reading stories about interstellar empires. There are several problems an interstellar empire must solve. How to travel light years in short times. How to govern a vast empire.In many SF empires, the government may be corrupt. This is realistic. All human institutions are tainted by our moral imperfections.Idealism rarely survives the real world of politics. The key thing realists must achieve is protection of human rights of its public, with economic growth and trade.

Of course, there is wide disagreement on the what those rights are, and are not, between polities and within them.

Perhaps there will be universal laws and rights that apply to everyone, and local rules that do not contradict universal rules.As the most basic universal rights, I propose sanctity of body and mind. That means your body and mind can never be violated.

Now define 'sanctity', 'body', 'mind', and 'violate'. This is not a joke.

So, alal is cool with anti-vaxers?

Forgive me, I don't know what anti-vaxers are.

Post by Peter TreiI'm curious how he applies this claim to a woman seeking abortion. Doesshe get it, or not? As it stands, its utterly ambiguous.pt

I over simplified things. A person should have full control over his or her mind and body. That means no unwanted medical procedures or unwanted implants on the body. That also means no unwanted use of hypnotic techniques on the mind, including blocking of memories, creation of false memories, or programming of behaviour. No physical torture.I am sure my preceding statement is imperfect, and we can discuss further if you want to, but I discuss as a retired IT consultant, and am not able to discuss as a legal professional.My concern is protecting the rights of my friends and I.

You carefully avoided answering my question.How does it apply to a pregnant woman seeking an abortion?In this case, an argument is often presented that the fetus is a person, witha person's rights (I don't agree this is true in all cases). If so, we havetwo people with mutually irreconcilable goes: The woman wished to be freeof the fetus, and the fetus (presumably) wants continued life.How do your principles resolve this conundrum?pt

According to me, a woman's rights are greater than the rights of the foetus. So I fully support a woman's right to an abortion. It is the personal choice of the woman.