Sunday, July 27, 2008

Ungh. Kitat Konenut New York

When my friend JoeSettler called me up on Friday afternoon to tell me about this, I thought he was joking.

"Kitat Konenut New York" -- mimicks the counter terror units around Israel; from Northern Israel's border communties, to the settlement communities in Yehuda and Shormon on the West Bank, to the villages, kibbutzim and cities surrounding Gaza, even Modiin and Beit Shemesh have first response counter terror units which are trained and fully under the command of the IDF.

For some reason, this group in NY decided to form their own well-regulated militia which they called the "Kitat Konenut of New York".

"We do not carry out demonstrations or political activity of any kind as we have no political agenda. Our agenda is to protect Jews wherever and whenever necessary and by any means needed."

On Friday, the third session of the group's training camp will begin in the Catskills woodlands of upstate New York, on land belonging to a Jewish supporter of the organization. With tuition at $400, the group expects 15 participants and five instructors for the 10 days of training. Participation has doubled since the group began three years ago.

American Jews have "felt a false sense of security in the United States," Stern believes, "because historically there has been less anti-Semitism than in other countries. But there have been incidents - neo-Nazi terrorist attacks, Arab terrorist attacks. Jews have to be vigilant."

"The threat is not from the American people or government," he adds, but from "terrorist sleeper cells that want to target Jews. These people are very dangerous and the FBI issues warnings against them very often," he said, citing the FBI's warning, after the killing of Hizbullah operations chief Imad Mughniyeh in Damascus in February, that the Lebanese group might carry out terror attacks on Jewish communities.

"The average American is friendly to Jews, but we're worried about those individuals on the periphery of society," Stern says.

The group was founded in the summer of 2006 in response to the shooting attack at the Jewish federation of Seattle premises by local Muslim Naveed Haq.

"We realized there is a need for this kind of organization, and as Israeli combat veterans living in the US, we have the skills and ability to respond to this," Stern says

"Kitat Konenut New York is a Religious-Zionist organization and we hold the ideology of the Bnei Akiva movement which is Torah Veavoda. Members of the Kita are well trained and well armed with the best gear and weapons available. All guns are 100% legal and in compliance with all federal, state and local laws."

Religious Zionism, Bnei Akiva, and Torah v'Avoda -- are about living in Israel, not playing vigiliante in New York's catskills under the banner of "saving Jewish lives."

I have alot more faith in the US Counter Terror Units, FBI, Rangers or Navy Seals before I would want these people showing up.

Grow up.

If you want to carry a rifle, move to Israel, join the IDF, and do it for real.

Agreed with everything here, except I'm pretty sure the First Amendment to the US Constitution allows this guy to own, and use (in lawful places/situations) rifles; he doesn't need to move to Israel and join the IDF to do that.

Personally, I think the dangers in the U.S. are not from anti-semitism but from people going "postal". One could argue that if someone well-trained and with a good head had a gun, fewer people would have died at Virginia Tech. But I would not want these guys to be my protectors, with their warped logic.

there is nothing wrong with jews in the galut learning self defense, including weapons training in a legal and safe framework (a constitutional right, although it is the second amendment, not the first as stated above)

yeah, their goals and language are way over the top (maybe even irresponsible). i'm not sure what they can learn in 10 day of training. but there is nothing wrong in principle with what they are doing.

as far as the BA connection: they are defining the composition of its members and their hashkafah. i didn't read it that they see their goals as a fulfillment of torat BA in any manner. and for that matter, i'm not sure why BA ideology and what they hope to accomplish are mutually exclusive.

fyi: at least one BA camp has a rifle range. if you ask why they will tell you because it helps develop hand-eye coordination. this is the same bulloney explanation the boy scouts uses to satisfy a PC world. but if this were true, there are other ways to develop hand eye coordination besides riflery.

"I have alot more faith in the US Counter Terror Units, FBI, Rangers or Navy Seals before I would want these people showing up."

me too. but they are not always available when you need them. and your ordinary local law enforcement agencies have a bad habit of standing down in the face of mob violence and civil unrest, a la crown heights, LA, new orleans, etc. in these situations you can't rely on anyone else to protect yourself, your family and your property.

There's been a spate of physical attacks in Lakewood NJ, I have noticed an increase in antisemitic comments on the streets of NY. While people should join you in Israel, as long as they live here and the police aren't doing what they have to (they do in NY, but I wonder about Lakewood), someone has to worry whether some hotheads will do what the scholars won't. Even if it's just posturing. You're all too young to remember pre '67 USA when it was often open season on openly jewish kids.

For a Rapid Response Unit to be effective it needs to meet the following criteria:

1. Locally situated. That means the whole concept of a 15 memeber "kitat konenut" for "New York" is somewhat of a joke, unless they have 24/x air support to fly them where they need to get to.

2. Training. What are the threats that this unit is training for? Are they seriously able to get professional training to be able to deal with these threats that they claim they want to address?

3. In the event that by some "miracle" they are in the right place and the right time, will local, state and/or federal law enforcement let them near the scene ? In Israel, these units are part of the IDF, and use the same chain of command, same tactics, training and have a common language. Is there even a remote possibility that the situation will be out of the league of this unit, and they will need to interface with the real law enforcement agencies, but wont be able to? Or worse, they will create friendly-fire situations?

4. As part of the IDF, the Rapid Response Units in Israel are under the insurance policy of the IDF; units called up for emergencies are under the full jurisdiction of the IDF. If G-d forbid someone is hurt as a result of intervention, who will pay the cost of this unit's volunteer effort?

at least one BA camp has a rifle range. if you ask why they will tell you because it helps develop hand-eye coordination. this is the same bulloney explanation the boy scouts uses to satisfy a PC world. but if this were true, there are other ways to develop hand eye coordination besides riflery.

Yeah, Moshava IO. They have riflery as an activity because it's a campy thing to do. They're not trying to develop anyone's hand-eye coordination - otherwise kids would have it more than just maybe once a summer, if at all. There is absolutely no training that goes on in Bnei Akiva camps for any sort of anything. Everything they have there is either for chinuch about Torah or Israel or both or it's there for fun because it's a summer camp. That's it.

i heard this directly from the camp director with my own ears. when i mentioned this to someone active in organizing boy scout activities, he said that they use the same excuse as well.

"They have riflery as an activity because it's a campy thing to do."

this was a (jewish) campy thing to do in the 1960s in camps that were ideologically oriented and belonged to youth movements. how many other jewish camps today besidse BA have riflery? does morasha, mesora, lavi, seneca, etc.?

"There is absolutely no training that goes on in Bnei Akiva camps"

but anyway, i don't think i said there was anti-terror training in moshava. my point (for those who were embarrassed about this specific story or for the typical american jew who recoils at the concept of gun ownership) is that the concept of jews knowing how to shoot is not opposed to BA principles.

The guy in charge made aliyah, did the army as a zionist, then after the depression of gush katif, became anti-zionist and left israel. He had a big party advertised on Facebook in which for his yerida since he was so proud of leaving.I made an article in which I defended the principles of religious zionist and he must have posted around 30 arguments trying to show religious zionism is wrong.

The fact that he calls himself religious zionist is dangerous. It means he now wants to trick people into giving him funds and stuff. The fact that he gets Jpost to report on him in a serious way, without showing how insane that guy had become, is also quite scary.

To me, unless he clearly comes out and says his depression from Gush Katif has passed and that he has once again joined the ranks of those who want to build the Jewish State, I do not consider him religious zionist. I actually consider him dangerous and will stay away.

As former president of the Betar Rifle & Pistol Club, 1967-1970, graduate of various NRA courses and training at Camp Betar 1965-66, there is no reason that a Jew in Galut shoudl not take advnatage of existing legal frameworks to learn how to use a weapon. To claim a "kitat konnenut" status is like what the JDL and later, the JDO, did: make waves, noise and negative PR. Nothing else.

I also agree they shouldn't use the Bnai Akiva moniker - it's too restrictive - they should be more inviting to other Jews as well. There MUST be a Jewish militia. And whoever has faith in the FBI et al might as well put his trust to Abbas.

is that the concept of jews knowing how to shoot is not opposed to BA principles.

I never said it was. And it isn't specifically a BA principle, either. If the purpose of having riflery at camp was to teach hand-eye coordination, they certainly did a lousy job of it, only offering it very few times a summer, if at all. Not a single kid comes out of Moshava knowing how to shoot, trust me. :)

I could there could be some value to a Honesdale Kitat Konenut :-)

HECK YEAH. You know how many hicks there are out in Honesdale who own rifles and are SO NOT AFRAID TO USE THEM??? They are SCARY people, lemme tell ya! Especially when you're on a hike and you just wanna use their bathroom!!! You can just imagine by their glares as we hike past that they're growling under their breath "lousy kids!" :P

You should be ashamed of yourself for criticising giborim like these who are moser nefesh for am Yisrael! Who do you think you are that you’re so holy to put down other holy Jews who are doing a job no one lese does and save Jewish lives in America? If I was young enough I would gladly join their organization, but being someone who can not participate in this mitzva I at least have the common decency to salute these brave young men for their heroism.

Also what does any of this have to do with living in Israel? Wake up- millions of Jews live in America and aren’t going anywhere any time soon. Someone needs to protect Jews in America and if you’re not up for the task at least don’t talk lashon hara and demean those who do.

To Mr. Proud Jew living in America (how a Jew can be proud of living in Chutz Laaretz, I'm not sure)

Can you please give me a serious answer to how these "gibborim" will address these serious issues?

For a Rapid Response Unit to be effective it needs to meet the following criteria:

1. Locally situated. That means the whole concept of a 15 memeber "kitat konenut" for "New York" is somewhat of a joke, unless they have 24/x air support to fly them where they need to get to.

2. Training. What are the threats that this unit is training for? Are they seriously able to get professional training to be able to deal with these threats that they claim they want to address?

3. In the event that by some "miracle" they are in the right place and the right time, will local, state and/or federal law enforcement let them near the scene ? In Israel, these units are part of the IDF, and use the same chain of command, same tactics, training and have a common language. Is there even a remote possibility that the situation will be out of the league of this unit, and they will need to interface with the real law enforcement agencies, but wont be able to? Or worse, they will create friendly-fire situations?

4. As part of the IDF, the Rapid Response Units in Israel are under the insurance policy of the IDF; units called up for emergencies are under the full jurisdiction of the IDF. If G-d forbid someone is hurt as a result of intervention, who will pay the cost of this unit's volunteer effort?

Ummm... just a question. You guys seem pretty riled up about this group having some connection to Bnei Akiva. I checked out their Myspace site and facebook group and didn't see anything there having to do with Bnei Akiva what so ever.Except for pictures of Israeli flags and guys wearing kippot srugot they seem to have nothing in connection with BA at all...so why are you guys all worked up about this? And even if they did, who cares? I think they are both positive and important organizations. My sons go to Bnei Akiva and when they're older I would definitely want them joining a group like this as well.

Last but not least. The purpose of this group is not a swat team to jump down into a scene and wipe out the enemy. I'm shocked at the reporters who write what they choose and not the truth.

Kitat Konenut in this country is trained like Israelis by Israelis. HOwever, it is more a group of Individuals... each individual is only responsible for his family, home and block. That is it. No bussing in to Crown Heights etc.

The goal is to have a member on each block as in the success of Hatzoloh where their response time is 1/3 that of the city ambulances.

The members are also trained in Emergency Medical, Hazmat, Fire Suppression and basic search and rescue.

ps. I notice you keep telling eveyone to send themselves and their kids to Israel. Good for you! Just remember, V'Chai Ba'hem. The Israeli Government makes that quite difficult... so for now, we've chosen to everywhere Jews are located. It's a responsibility. Cheers.

Free people have the undeniable right to organize to protect themselves and their communities, no matter their race, color or creed. We should all be coming together to protect our lives and our liberty.

People are foolish to rely on government for their protection, especially here in America. Throughout the 20th century, governments, after being granted expansive and nigh-unlimited powers over the citizenry, have killed more people than any other manmade cause. One only needs to think of the Nazis, the Bolsheviks, or the Kmer Rouge to name a few. It has happened all over the world, and it can happen here.

There's a slogan that's been starting to go around the US. It goes; "The answer to 1984 is 1776."