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i almost promised my self not to bother replying to these posts
but let me say this
i've trained under more then mori sensei
and mori sensei is the best i've ever felt by a long shot
and he has never hurt any of his uke, they never feel any pain.
i've never been injured by it neither has any of his other uke. and you guys think you know aikido?
then you surely must know that you can not judge aikido by how it looks. but by how its felt. you can not possibly judge it unless you've been uke your self and felt his technique. how can you guys judge it just by what you see?

i will never ever judge anyone else's aikido by how it looks unless i've trained with them before.

i always thought joe sensei was hard and would kill me but when i trained with him, he was so soft...it was beautifull.

no one can judge anything unless they have trained and experianced it first hand. everybody's aikido is completely different.
my sensei is not bashing anyone up.

The throw definitely looks like what I have seen Shioda do on tape. It definitely puts the neck and upper back at risk-more the neck. Also the possibility of a head injury is of great concern since the person is being driven straight down-head stops, brain continues to move - voila concussion. If the back of the brain hits the skull then we have issues of coordination as the cerebellum is being injured.

So, from what I saw the risk of a bad whiplash or strain injury or a broken neck or a concussion are all possible if the uke is not able to take the fall. Dangerous at best. IMHO.

As to Adam's comments, let me just say there are very effective iriminages taking the uke's balance out without driving the head and neck straight into the ground. If you want to realistically finish them off so they don't get up from it, then that is a good move. Does it take a broken neck or a severe concussion with permanent repercussions to drive the dangerous aspect of this home?

Very well said in my opinion.

For me, when the day comes that I return to my style, if that day ever comes, should I get hurt permanently, if it were because I wasn't paying attention, I would accept responsibility. When you train to develop powerful technique, there's a risk.

When you reach a certain level, you should have your ukemi skills in order. If you don't, then you better let the person across from you know.

That's just my opinion. People have to do what's right for them. I wouldn't intentionally steer them to or not to do any style.

EDIT: Just a note. I believe that what I saw when I trained was hard techniques. However, whether that was the case by the end, I don't know. In fact, I haven't trained in a dojo regularly for two years. So, don't take my position as an account of what the style does or had done because I really don't know. I just remember what techniques I loved to see by the guys at the top. (But, three years ago, I was taking some falls with that level of intensity.)

you can not possibly judge it unless you've been uke your self and felt his technique.

Well, I guess I've felt it, so...

Quote:

how can you guys judge it just by what you see?

Because after you've been around human beings for a while you start to recognize patterns of behavior? Because some of us have been there and done that? Because so much of human communication is mediated visually?

Yes, feeling is important but when someone's head bounces off the mat and they don't get up right away and nage has to check them how can you say they were not injured or at least dazed. Minor insults to the brain are cumulative and generally with long term consequences. Ask some professional quarterbacks who bounce off the ground with helmets on. If one chooses to take such a strong technique that is their perogative. It would be interesting to see how clearly they think 10 or 20 years later. Minor concussions can cause long term headaches. Brain cells do not regenerate. Hey, if it's your thing, its your brain. Free will and all that. I'm not being critical of his technique just the amount of power being used. The follow through point is very close to the ground for nage giving uke little time to do anything other than hit the mat hard.

Your Sensei does beat people up! He also has x-ray vision and can leap tall buildings in a single bound.

I'm joking.

I have had the chance to meet Mori sensei and was quite honestly surprised by how gentle his manner is. I really was surprised to then see him perform his kata and how much power he puts into his techniques.

I wouldn't worry too much about others peoples corcerns about his methods. You've just stumbled across the old school -v- new school arguement, martial -v- safety. Personally I don't mind being thrown like that occasioally but I am not interesting in joining the riot police either so I would be concerned about the mileage I would get out of that sort of training. But what ever floats your boat. I am very confident that Mori sensei is not abusive to his students.

You know what though? Steven was polite to you during this entire conversation. Can't say the same for your posts.

Best,
Ron

Whatever. Fastidious passive-agression scores no points with me. It's okay if someone tells insults your intelligence, dissembles, and plies one half-baked fallacy after another, so long as they are "polite"? Personally, I prefer honesty, no matter how blunt.

With this LOGIC (often being the opposite of PSYCHOlogic), women would only be battered once by a man. Typically, they blame themselves ("I burned the toast," "I have to learn better UKEMI") rather than impute nastiness to their abuser. CAVEAT EMPTOR.
Well put. Thank you.

Don
Since you are so well versed in syllogism (if i a=>b and b=>c then a=>c)
I believe that you understand their limitation as afar as cartesian/bolean logic is concerned.
The link between being "battered uki" and battered women is exactly the same as a cheap horse being expensive on the ground that rare things are expensive and since a cheap hores is rare....

Saying that battered uki and battered woman have anything in common is to psychology what Fox news is to independent journalism.
There are societal, economic and peer pressure on battered women that being a uke has no chance to even marginally get close.
If I agree that battering uke is a form a bullying that does not have anything remotely comparable to battered woman.
"I burnt the toast" is a way to cope with an environment that the woman has no chance to escape from on her own and 24/7 attacks on her self worth and self esteem.
That is just not the case for the majority of ukes as they actually can escape.
I mean when we are in seminar when we do not like a training partner, most of us just do not train with that guy again (or enter a snotting competition but in that case it is willful act)

As I said before
Some like hard aikido some like soft aikido. It is all fine.

All
However what is not fine is That sensei has been pilloried for two blumming page on the ground of one video.
May be he said to his uke after the demonstration "sorry mate I did not mean to drop you on your head."
One can understand the pats on the head and helping him to get up are a way to publicly acknowledge that the technique was too rough and apologies for it.

We do not have any context as to pass judgment.
As far as having risk of injury, well yes there is but there is in plenty of other activity. I can understand that if you are on the spiritual development side of the track, that type of risk is unacceptable but you do need to realize that there some of use that practice for the martial aspect and that the risk of injury is perfectly acceptable, especially since we do it in a controlled environment.
I like functional aikido but I am the first on to say that you can not really engage in proper free sparing).
Obviously, a safe environment implies that you do adapt the intensity of your technique to your training partner (according to rank, age and disposition) and well it does imply that there is an intrinsic ability level that goes with each grade.

I joust sometime with solid lances. (And probably most of us are involved in risky leisure activity).
Yes I can end up like Henry II of France, with a bit of lance it the brain, or I can break something being unhorsed, fortunately armour and lances are designed so that it is very very unlikely.
At the end of the day we do take precaution to minimize accident and injury but the risk is always there.
Unlike battered woman there is no one or nothing forcing me to get on a horse or forcing us to get on the mat if we do not want to
phil

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.

I can understand that if you are on the spiritual development side of the track, that type of risk is unacceptable but you do need to realize that there some of use that practice for the martial aspect and that the risk of injury is perfectly acceptable, especially since we do it in a controlled environment.

Ok, I've trained with Don...he is not from any "camp". He has some excellent waza, and excellent ukemi. For those who doubt it, buy the Friendship demo where he takes some INTENSE ukemi from Saotome Sensei in Japan. Don has every right to his opinion, as does Ellis (Original Graduate of the School of Hard Knocks).

Look, different people will have different opinions of those clips, of the clips of Shioda, etc. I know for a fact that there were yudansha that were praying Shioda Sensei wouldn't call them up for ukemi. Yoshinkan can be a very rough style, and just because someone has excellent physical skills doesn't mean they will embody the "peace and love" ethics of post war aikido. As long as the person signing up for the demo is aware of what's up...that's between them and their instructor.

Ueshiba Sensei put Shioda Sensei in the hospital for 3 days...after trashing the arm of the first uke in the demonstration before the emperor. That is some rough stuff...as Shioda Sensei was the founding member of the OGSHK himself . It is what it is. No need for any of us to be casting aspersions on the people who are making valid comments.

That doesn't mean I have to agree with them, or to take it as seriously as they do. But both Don and Ellis are buds, and I can't sit by and watch people mis-characterize them. Especially since I've felt and seen their waza, and know they don't match what some people have said.

Best,
Ron

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 08-14-2007 at 08:00 AM.

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)

By the way, just viewed the clip of Mustard Sensei. Didn't look earlier because I thought it was one I'd already seen.

a) Congrats Sensei on the 7th Dan!

b) I thought the comments on the youtube vid were pretty stupid.

c) I've taken ukemi for Mustard Sensei (not in demo mode though), and he's one of the most gentle high ranking guys in the Yoshinkan that I've taken ukemi for. And a real prince of a guy. Absolutely a gentleman. I'm with Ellis 100% on his recommendation.

d) I noticed that Mustard Sensei demonstrated some power draining waza on that vid. I don't think I've seen him demo those before. He keeps improving every time I see him.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)

i almost promised my self not to bother replying to these posts
but let me say this
i've trained under more then mori sensei
and mori sensei is the best i've ever felt by a long shot
and he has never hurt any of his uke, they never feel any pain.

Bob Tullman has thrown me at least that hard...but only when I've requested it .

I dunno. I tend to freak out over uke safety and this seemed well within the bounds of reason IF you want to take hard falls. There is a certain pleasure in having your bell rung by someone you really respect. Uke had room to tuck in his chin I think.

and you guys think you know aikido?
then you surely must know that you can not judge aikido by how it looks. but by how its felt. you can not possibly judge it unless you've been uke your self and felt his technique. how can you guys judge it just by what you see?

Ha! Hoisted on my own petard. My oft-expressed mantra is, I want to take the UKEMI.

The reason why I feel free to comment here is because I saw the guy's head bouncing off the mat several times.

Don't have to take that to know what's happening.

Geez, it amazes me how people can argue against objective evidence. It's right there, the head bouncing! Mori having to help UKE back up. Talk about thinking in a box. Geez.

The link between being "battered uki" and battered women is exactly the same as a cheap horse being expensive on the ground that rare things are expensive and since a cheap hores is rare....

Ha! That's cute. Had heard Ionesco's about cats being dogs, but hadn't heard this one.

But I don't think it applies, though. The psychology is the same, I think: The victim blames him/herself.

Quote:

Saying that battered uki and battered woman have anything in common is to psychology what Fox news is to independent journalism.

Oh, man! I hate to find myself on the other side of an argument with someone bashing Fox...If nothing else, thanks for that.

Quote:

There are societal, economic and peer pressure on battered women that being a uke has no chance to even marginally get close.
If I agree that battering uke is a form a bullying that does not have anything remotely comparable to battered woman.

As I said before
Some like hard aikido some like soft aikido. It is all fine.

Uh, no. Some of it is criminal.

Quote:

However what is not fine is That sensei has been pilloried for two blumming page on the ground of one video.

Sorry. Accountability seems right to me.

Quote:

May be he said to his uke after the demonstration "sorry mate I did not mean to drop you on your head."

"I'm sorry, honey. I don't know what came over me. I promise not to do it again, and I'm cooking you dinner as soon as the doctor signs the release papers."

Quote:

One can understand the pats on the head and helping him to get up are a way to publicly acknowledge that the technique was too rough and apologies for it.

'Took him four or five bloomin' tosses to knock the poor guys senseless. For which would he be apologizing?

Quote:

We do not have any context as to pass judgment.

Poppycock. The evidence is right before us.

Quote:

I can understand that if you are on the spiritual development side of the track, that type of risk is unacceptable

Actually, this distinction is untenable. It is precisely the "spiritually oriented" people who train the hardest, cf. Osensei. Don't think I count myself in this camp, but wouldn't be embarrassed to...

Quote:

but you do need to realize that there some of use that practice for the martial aspect and that the risk of injury is perfectly acceptable, especially since we do it in a controlled environment.

It is precisely the question of control we are discussing, isn't it. And some of us expect Mori of it, if you will.

The students accompanying Sensei for this event were his leading disciple, Mr. Tsutomu Yukawa (now deceased) and I. During this period Sensei was suffering from a heavy case of jaundice and had only drunk water for about ten days. He has grown so weak that he even had to support himself on our shoulders to put his kimono on or to walk. Mr. Yukawa and I looked at each other and worried about whether Sensei could really give a demonstration in that condition. Despite this, he somehow got into the car which came to fetch him and arrived at the Saineikan. We got out of the car and supported him when he walked. However, when we approached the entrance of the dojo where the Imperial family was visible, Sensei's eyes began to shine and he entered the dojo with a commanding air, totally transformed. After the extremely respectful formalities the demonstration began at last. Forty minutes were alloted for the demonstration. Yukawa was supposed to take falls for the first twenty minutes and I for the last twenty.

It looked like Yukawa was attacking Sensei half-heartedly in deference to his condition. But Ueshiba Sensei's ki power had reached the maximum. Yukawa was sent flying in a flash and he ended up crouching on the floor unable to move. When I rushed to him and looked him over carefully I discovered his arm was broken. Thus as it happened I had to take falls for the entire forty minutes in place of the injured Yukawa. I couldn't hold back. On the contrary, I attacked Sensei with all my might. The moment I was thrown and landed on the mat I got up immediately and went at Ueshiba Sensei. I was pinned flat but as soon as I was released I went to attack again and again was thrown by Sensei. In any event, his spirit was incredibly strong. Exerting myself to the utmost, I somehow managed to serve as Sensei's uke for forty minutes. But later I came down with a high fever and had to stay in bed for about a week.

Now, what I'm currious about is if the people who object to Shioda Sensei's demonstrations, and Mori Sensei's demonstrations also object to Ueshiba Sensei's demonstrations. And if not, why not?? And if so, then why do we not hear those objections more often?

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)

I remember putting up some youtube video here sometime ago of two people in dogi and hakama doing some interpretive dance and labeled as aikido.

To me that was horrific... because it is alien to the aikido I know.

Now Adrian put up his sensei's demo clip and people who are not from the Yoshinkan school criticize that it appear to be deliberately harsh on his uke.

I can tell you, as I am from Yoshinkan school as well, we train our ukemi to be able to take that kind of techniques. When we have trained uke who are able to take hard ukemi, then as shite/tori, we are able to maximally apply our technique at full force.

When we are able to do that, shite learns the feeling of applying the technique realistically; whereas uke learn how it feels to receive a technique applied at realistic force.

Yoshinkan school still maintain its martial credo... in line with its Kancho's teaching/spirit.

If one was to read Kancho's auto-biograhy, his fights are never round after rounds of trading blows with his opponents. His fights usually last one encounter and his opponents are normally unable to continue the fight due to dislocated or disjointed joints (usually elbow).

With that in mind, each waza we do, is inline with the mindset of instantaneous victory; and as such it is important the shite apply realistic waza to uke who are trained to take the ukemi.

Absolutely. What really amazed me though, was how nice he was. Not at all how he was described in Angry White Pajamas.

Say, I remember the first time I saw him in person. He was at one of Utada Sensei's anniversaries, and everytime he (M.S.) came near me I would snap to attention and Osu (like some kind of freakin' idiot ). His response was to ask me why I kept looking like I wanted to attack him!

Best,
Ron (good sense of humor, that)

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 08-14-2007 at 12:56 PM.

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)

Now, what I'm currious about is if the people who object to Shioda Sensei's demonstrations, and Mori Sensei's demonstrations also object to Ueshiba Sensei's demonstrations. And if not, why not?? And if so, then why do we not hear those objections more often?

Fair questions. I think we do hear objections, but not as often as the idol-worshipping mush. That is, for the same reasons that Stevens sells more books than Pranin or Amdur.

I'm all for a level playing field and subjecting SHIHAN or Osensei to the same standards to which we hold ourselves. Shall we begin another thread?

The realities of accepting different methodologies and technical applications of Aikido is in more of a need than ever. Why does one person desire that Aikido be taught, practice and applied one way? When the founding father of Aikido introduce the art to his various students, they all took away different methodologies and applications, it depends on when they where taught Aikido during his life. Some of this is a result of where he was in his own personal growth and development. In the beginning Aikido, (Aikibudo) as he refer to his art, at that time, was hard and very aggressive, full combat ready. Upon his deeply religious conviction to the Shinto religion, which took hold and impacted his martial arts development, he moved toward the soft, don't hurt, peaceful, not self defense. Aikido was the word used permanently.

Aikido to some is not Aikido to others. Personal attacks to one's methodology and application of the art only serves to make Aikido less appealing. I'm glad there is a hard style and a soft style. For those who want to learn more self defense oriented, combat Aikdio, then Yoseikan and others are available. For those who want to learn the softer more meditation/spiritual Aikido then Ki is available.