Mike wrote:Smike,Put and Take was never designed to increase license sales. It was and continues to be a fisheries management technique designed to provide an attractive, seasonal, high use, recreational fishery. Where it did and if it did increase license sales, it was a side benefit. I have never heard anyone in the PFBC state that this water will be stocked in order to increase license sales.

OK, I'll play along on that one. I agree it isn't designed to increase license sales, it's to slow the decline in license sales.

Originally it was to supplement the gap in what brook trout reproduction couldn't provide anymore since it's harsh decline in an ever growing populous.

Now somestocking takes place in good places and gives kids places to fish trout. Other times it keeps water open. Sometimes it's over good trout populations, with guys in hippers holding eight o'clock cans full of worms screaming something about a kid's derby.

Sometimes it's on the Letort. You gotta learn to roll with it but yes some places are still stocked and should not be.

Off topic but on first day why do guys in waders sit in lawn chairs?its like the dude at big spring in the ffo area that has 1000 dollar waders but never gets in

They participate in the participatory democracy by advocating what they want to the PFBC, the Commissioners and their legislators.

People who think that hatchery trout stocking should be moved away from wild trout streams and particularly native brook trout towards non-wild trout waters have just as much of a right to express their opinions.

They participate in the participatory democracy by advocating what they want to the PFBC, the Commissioners and their legislators.

People who think that hatchery trout stocking should be moved away from wild trout streams and particularly native brook trout towards non-wild trout waters have just as much of a right to express their opinions.

Agreed, well said ^

The PFBC should make a hard and fast policy of no stocking Class A trout streams by the commission or co-ops / clubs, without exception. Class B's should also be considered for stocking cessation based on their potential for becoming a Class A stream.

Further there should be no stocking in streams that hold a Class D or better population of brook trout. The remaining wild brook trout streams should never be stocked.

With all that said, the trout stocking program is very popular and anglers "vote" for stocking by buying a license. Trout stocking should be continued at least the present rate, if financially sustainable, in streams with little or no trout reproduction.

I think that reducing or eliminating stocking is only part of the equation. If stocking is reduced, I think that the PAFBC also needs to think about how those waters are managed. I'd really like to see more no kill, or limited harvest on these areas. Much is written about the way that Montana has reduced stocking, but I also think they've also managed to regulate the harvest of fish in many rivers, which ensures enough fish to reproduce.

And quite honestly, I think the Montana FWP manages their fisheries with the wild resource in mind. They still stock, but not as a means to attract anglers.

It’s no secret Montana is an amazing place to visit any time of yearbut it may be surprising how powerful the tourism industry is for Montana’s economy. If measured as a service export, travel & tourism would be the #3 export for Montana, following bulk grain and mineral fuels. That means communities across the state are seeing stronger bottom lines and more prosperous Main Streets because of the world-class ski resorts, blue ribbon fly-fishing streams, and endless hiking and biking trails we enjoy in our backyards.

No, PA is not MT, nor does it have to be. Although our population density is much higher and our proximity to urban centers outside our state is much, much higher! So, there is a relatively untapped gold mine of non-resident angling.

Our stocking problem, as most here have suggested, is cultural.

What is the solution: Marketing!

If we change the hearts and minds of PA anglers with the right kind of marketing campaign, we can erode the put-and-take culture. This seems like a better approach than the current "us against them" approach. Add to that a well executed marketing campaign to non-resident anglers and you have real potential!

For example, look how bass tournament fishing (which I detest) has changed bass angling in PA and beyound:* Mostly catch & release* significant increase in boating and angling item sales volume* significant increase in high value product salesI'm sure there are other benefits I'm forgetting, but you get the point.

How did that all happen? Organizations like BASS. Our analog is TU.

If we change management to emphasize wild trout reproduction and growth (brookies, browns and rainbows), we could have some of the best fishing in the country....in select streams, of course.

Dare to imagine a cleaner PA because it is in our economic best interest via resident and non-resident license sales, hospitality sales, and improvement in land values. It's not a pipe dream. It simply takes good leadership, patience and resolve.

I'm sure there are variables I did not mention, so feel free to discuss and/or shoot holes in my thinking.

Marketing: https://online.flowpaper.com/7b150751/FGSpecialissue45Web/New Zealand is looking at "trout towns " as destinations for tourist anglers. Using Montana as an example. Murray's Bar in Livingston gets a plug. Been there ,Tom?GGInteresting site with the Fish and Game Magazine available for reading.

Posted on: 12/9 14:13

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Last week I joined an Anti-Social support group........We haven't Met yet!

You've nailed it......They've managed themselves right into an economic benefit! The fishing is typically fantastic, and they aren't hesitant to close waters when needed due to heat stress or other issues. As a result, Montana is a destination.

While not on the same scale, there was a time that the Big Woods of north central Pa were a destination. It was good for the local economy and I'd like to think created the need to manage the resource as well.

Tip of the iceberg Montana (including Yellowstone due to proximity/gateways):

Glacier NP:

Bitteroot neck of the woods:

Jellystone:

Pennsylvania, other than the Pine Creek Gorge and the Big Spring 'bow, these are dime a dozen out your backdoor anywhere in PA:

Not saying PA doesn't have her charms, but to compare PA to MT as a 'tourist destination' where someone would drop a couple grand for a perhaps once in a lifetime adventure....sorry, but you're talking apples and oranges here....regardless of the state's stocking policy. PA might draw in the more hardcore anglers, which make up the majority of this site's denizens, but to compare it to the draw of Montana for the more 'recreational angler' who's got coin to spend is apples and oranges.

Edit to add:To attempt to clarify my point....PA is a wonderfully scenic and amazing place, but to compare it to the draw of the Rocky Mtn west is really apples and oranges. I do love it here and think we have amazing fishing and that it could be managed better, no doubt. But to say, well look what Montana did 30 years ago....well, that's just not a realistic comparison when you look at the mind numbing landscape that they're working with. An old fishing buddy once said that the west is awe inspiring, but here in the east, it's a much more intimate experience. You can crawl around on it and through it, and that's not something you feel connected to or inspired by with one week's exposure. Kinda like a one night stand vs a long term intimate relationship. And changing stocking policy ain't gonna change that, would it help? Maybe, maybe not. Look at Penn's creek for example, probably our state's finest trout fishery, and it barely supports two local hole in the wall flyshops, no offense to Jonas & Bruce....when compared to half a dozen shops in West Yellowstone and multiple shops in Gardiner and beyond. Apples and oranges, bushels of apples and a handful of oranges.

PA is no Montana, that's for damn sure!!! Never heard of anyone from montana saying they were going to move to PA for the fishing

As for stocking issues, sure, we still have problems, but things ARE slowly getting better regarding the wild trout resource. Just look at the progress in 50 years regarding regulations and such. It takes a long time to change minds.

Tom, only speaking of the fly shops is truly missing the forest for the trees. Ask all of the small business owners in the town of Coburn, Millheim, and surrounding areas what Penns, Spring, and BFC do for their economy. While "not Montana", there are plenty of people from out of state that come to fish, even if for short 2-4 day trips.

There are also plenty of people that travel to Montana to fish, that don't spend thousands of dollars on a trip. I'd venture to guess that the high-spending anglers only contribute a fraction of the money compared to travelers with a smaller budget.