I am offend confused on why a lot of the old-school guys rejection of FMA being used in sport fighting... They say it's best to keep FMA at its current form and keep it old-school and not bastardize it... There is nothing wrong with that but I think FMA has come a long way from where it was a while ago...

Here is my point... A long time ago FMA was only taught to Filipinos and noone else... Then came some of the masters who taught that for FMA to live on it must be taught to outsiders... But I can bet a lot of other masters back then probably hated that idea and I can bet my left pinky that there are a few of Filipinos now who still feel the same... There was one member here who felt that way and voiced it out in this site a couple of times... I forgot his name though and haven't seen him post in a while...

FMA has evolved from what it was before... It is now taught to all ethnicities and by different ethnicities, not only Filipinos...

So using FMA in the cage can be another part of that evolution... Some of the old-school guys here might disagree... But I think the question is not if FMA will be used in the cage, it's when it will be used in the cage...

The time for FMA being used in sport fighting will come... One day there will be a fighter who will use FMA as his main MA for MMA events...

Like what I said before, combat evolves... That applies in both in real combat and sport fighting...

Well, Here I go again with a counter point.. 1st point of view. Old school guys (of which I am one) reject things that have been proven wrong in the past.. It has been indicated that the Dog Brothers had been denied their specialized combat method of the FMA by the UFC originators it's earlier days of presentation.. They basically said that the dog brothers method of combat was too violent for use in the ring.. This proves that the combatives of the Philippines were viewed as too brutal for concept of the UFC.
My comments are above the lines and my counter point is to the quote in the smaller font separated by the line._______________________________________________________________

I am offend confused on why a lot of the old-school guys rejection of FMA being used in sport fighting... They say it's best to keep FMA at its current form and keep it old-school and not bastardize it... There is nothing wrong with that but I think FMA has come a long way from where it was a while ago...
________________________________________________________________2nd Point of view The FMA was taught to people who had a need to survive.. History has proven that Jean Lafiete had Pinoys in his crew of pirates and the Filipino knife training was taught in the bayous of Louisiana even before the battle of 1812 when New Orleans was still tied in with the French.. The Pinoys married into the Creole groups of the bayou country and that expanded the individual family style of fighting as it was taught to people who were related
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Here is my point... A long time ago FMA was only taught to Filipinos and noone else... Then came some of the masters who taught that for FMA to live on it must be taught to outsiders... But I can bet a lot of other masters back then probably hated that idea and I can bet my left pinky that there are a few of Filipinos now who still feel the same... There was one member here who felt that way and voiced it out in this site a couple of times... I forgot his name though and haven't seen him post in a while...
____________________________________________________________3rd Point of view

Some FMA styles have evolved and a lot more have disappeared into the dust of history due to the instructors not teaching their sons or skipping a generation to teach after the fact.. One of the FMA systems that I teach was taught to my instructor's son, yet as the son got older, the desire to teach went out the window like last nights' dish water.. . The FMA originally was a family art along with being taught to the citizens of villages, but you have to remember in some of the villages of old, the villages were primarily individuals who were married into a family or accepted into the tribes by being accepted and then taught the family/village system.. These were survival tools and nothing else other than to give better odds to stay alive in combat.. Nothing more, or less
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FMA has evolved from what it was before... It is now taught to all ethnicities and by different ethnicities, not only Filipinos...
____________________________________________________________4th counterpoint..

Cage fighting with the FMA might come eventually, but not in the foreseeable future due to the government restrictions and sports commissions who rule on what goes on and what doesn't. A few years ago, there was a group that had live stick competition sans armor in various parts of the world.. We had a couple of groups like that here on Guam of which a couple of my guys trained for, but when it came to open fighting in view of the public, the fights had to be taken off island to another island in the Marianas islands where it was held on private property and the local government was not allowed to interfer.. A couple of the matches were held at a Chinese ran gambling casino/hotel where they sponsored the fighters who participated in the events.. But those days are long gone since the whole Marianas island chain falls under Federal jurisdiction now.

There was a group out of SOCAL and the southwestern states who had to take their fights to Mexico to get away from the restrictions from the sporting commissions of the various states.. These fights went on for a couple of years there, but I don't think they made money on the events..

As long as there are sporting commissions that dictate the circumstances and conditions that these matches are fought, you will not see them in the states or else where due to the restrictions.. There is legislation in the works here to set up a combative arts commission that will set the regulations and specifications to rule the MMA here on island, so can you imagine what it would happen if I or another instructor went to the commission and tried to get live stick competitions authorized.. I think not because humans in nature don't like brutality.. This why the rules for the original UFC were changed to those which restricted the so called deadly applications in use while in the ring.. ______________________________________________________________
So using FMA in the cage can be another part of that evolution... Some of the old-school guys here might disagree... But I think the question is not if FMA will be used in the cage, it's when it will be used in the cage...

The time for FMA being used in sport fighting will come... One day there will be a fighter who will use FMA as his main MA for MMA events...
____________________________________________________________5th counterpoint

Combat doesn't evolve... Combat is war or armed conflict, it either results in injuries or termination, nothing more and most definitely not for use in the cage. I think that most of the forumites who have walked in the shadows of the valley can relate to my statement..

Man or instruments of combat evolve, that is evolution.. Combat is loosely translated as armed combat or a struggle.. Playing tag in the ring does not define as combat in my book..

Explaining combat to those who get their dose of reality of combat from watching the nightly news or from watching reruns of the military channel and not walk in the shoes of those of us who have been there, done that and got the scars can understand where I am coming from

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Like what I said before, combat evolves... That applies in both in real combat and sport fighting...

You spelled it correctly. Besides my Senkotiros training I'm also a Sandan in both Okinawan karate and kobudo, and I'm a firm believer in Bunkai. I'm also a firm believer that most karate schools teach Bunkai wrong, but enough of my hijacking this thread... Maybe if anyone wants to discuss this I'll start a new thread in the General Martial Arts section.

As far as seeing FMA in MMA... I could probably pick out moves that are similar to FMA moves in many fights, but how do you define it unless someone pulls a knife in the ring how do you separate it from the other general movements that carry over throughout all martial arts.

Well being one who is not only well versed in the art, I am of the fortune that I am well versed in the sport and lets say I have a bit of expeariance about combat too.

Are they different, Absolutley.

Can they help each other, Of course they can, but they are different beasts.

When I was in my sporting years (and I call it what it is, sport) my training had to be sports specific otherwise I would have fallen foul of the rules on more than one occasion. You see you fight how you train and it is that simple.

A top class MMA sportsman/athlete (and that is what he is) will automatically drop into the training he does day in and day out, even when faced with an armed aggressor intent on taking more than his money, will his MMA training help him in a real conflict? Of course it will, but it can also be the down fall of him too for if he drops into what he is used to doing every day (which is likely) he could well find himself in a place he does not want to be.

Did my sport expeariance help me become a better martial artist. No it did not. Yes it hightend certain attributes of my fighting skills and gave be a better understanding of what can be effective in a limited environment, but it never once helped me become a better martial artist. That is a whole different aspect to my training.

When I first started I was only interested in one thing and that was hurting people, I was a fighter, not a martial artists, and I used my fighting skills on a daily basis, because I was a not so nice person, did that make me a better martial artist because I knew how to fight for real and took pleasure and pride in hurting people. No it did not.

Do I know what it is like to make a chioce between severly hurting some one because they are intent on hurting me, Yes I do, but it never made me a better martial artist either.

Now once I got over my own ego and realised that I could vent my anger in sport, full contact sport of various kinds including, FMA, Muay Thai and Vale Tudo, I moved away from the darker side of my life, did that me me a better martial artists, No but it was setting me on the way to be one only in that I realised I had chioces, I had the chioce not to hurt someone for the simple reason I wanted to, or my environment dictated I should, I could still fight and get a pleasure out of it and be rewarded for my skills as a fighter.

Now that I retired fromt the sports side of my art, I concentrated more and more on the ART, I realise I can become a better person, I have pride in what I do, I know that not everything I do has a combat application but it can still enhance certain attributes, my attitude to life is different and my attitude to other people is different, I do the art for the love of the art, it is my life and I know the sport was fun, the fighting was at times nessesary but for the most part no a nice thing to do and it is the art that has shown me that I am unique, I am better than I ever thought I could be both as a person and as an ARTIST.

Can the art live without the sport, Yes it can but the sport can help individuals improve CERTAIN attributes and if done hand in hand with the art can be of benefit to the individual as long as they realise the two are different things. Will combat improve your art and make you better at it, only in that you know what it is like to hurt for real but it wont make you as an individual a better MARTIAL ARTIST. Only you can do that.

The art can improve you as a person, the sport can improve certain attributes which MAY improve some parts of your art, the Combat lets you know just how precious life really is, all three can make you a better martial artists if you can combine them and use them for what they are, but the art can live without the sport and the sport should be looked upon for what it really is, a bit of fun.

Now I hear that you can use ellements of the FMA in MMA, well you can use ellements of football in MMA too, but it does not make it football does it and a punch is a punch is a punch, no matter what suger coating mystycal name you tag on to it. You can say this guys is a Krabi Krabong fighter who is winning the next UFC, but he wont use his art to win will he, he will fight by the rules if he wants to win and he will as the sport dicates become an athlete, will it improve certain attributes, yes of course, but it will not improve himself as a martial artist, only he can do that by having a deeper understanding of his art as a whole.

You can be a fighter without being a Martial Artist, you can be a top class sportsman without being a Martial Artist, you can be a Martial Artists without being a fighter or a sportsman and you can be a Martial Artist who is a fighter and a sportsman but you will know how the 3 are different beasts.

Ellements of FMA in the cage, yes why not, but it is not FMA.
Ellements of FMA in the sport, well it's been done in several versions but it is still not FMA all be it related to it. Being related to your mother does not make you your mother.

There is a difference and I am quite surprised on just how many dont realise the difference.

You see I was telling my wife about this little debate on here and she said:

"I dont see why your even having this debate? After all FMA has it's own versions of MMA. Look at the Black Eagle Society, Dog Brothers and other groups like them that are all around the world. Why would you even think of restricting them to a cage?"

Why would you think the Orientals have the monoploy on Martial??? There are of have been Martial Arts in every country that has had conflict.

Best regards

Pat

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I don't think they do. That's why I think equating martial arts with the particular notion of spirituality practiced in some martial arts in japan and china is frankly racist. Just because some cultures infuse a particular buddhist or confucian ethos into the culture of learning to fight doesn't mean that other cultures that don't practice that ethos don't have martial arts.

You see I was telling my wife about this little debate on here and she said:

"I dont see why your even having this debate? After all FMA has it's own versions of MMA. Look at the Black Eagle Society, Dog Brothers and other groups like them that are all around the world. Why would you even think of restricting them to a cage?"

What more can I say?

Best regards

Pat

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To put it in a way that I think answers her question.

"If I have FMA training, as well as some skill in combat sports, why would I NOT seek to test my skills acquired in FMA against people very proficient in a given range of combat? Do my skills only work if I hermetically seal them away from each other?"

"If I have FMA training, as well as some skill in combat sports, why would I NOT seek to test my skills acquired in FMA against people very proficient in a given range of combat? Do my skills only work if I hermetically seal them away from each other?"

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What she is saying and I can agree with her is, we already have our own MMA events where our skills are tested to the max in such a range as well as all the other ranges we play at. In otherwords why limit ourselves to what would amout to a very small portion of our skills when we in fact already pressure test our skills in a far better way.

If you are only allowed to use 5% of your FMA skills, the it is only a small portion of what you are and not truely representative of what you do is it.

We already do it, so why do it to a lesser degree? As a matter of fact when Vale Tudo first came out many FMA'ers over here took to it (my wife is also a former British Vale Tudo Champion), but as the rules where added in the interest on official consumption the rules pushed them away from it as it dicated that you became less and less of what you do and more and more a slave to the rules, hence most MMA guys now are looking all the same as the next guy and have become a style all on their own.

It is no longer about what art you do now, Ju Jitsu, Karate, Thai Boxing, Savate, Kung Fu or even FMA. MMA if we are honest about it now is about being an MMA'er who looks very much like the next MMA'er.

"If I have FMA training, as well as some skill in combat sports, why would I NOT seek to test my skills acquired in FMA against people very proficient in a given range of combat? Do my skills only work if I hermetically seal them away from each other?"

Click to expand...

What she is saying and I can agree with her is, we already have our own MMA events where our skills are tested to the max in such a range as well as all the other ranges we play at. In otherwords why limit ourselves to what would amout to a very small portion of our skills when we in fact already pressure test our skills in a far better way.

If you are only allowed to use 5% of your FMA skills, the it is only a small portion of what you are and not truely representative of what you do is it.

We already do it, so why do it to a lesser degree? As a matter of fact when Vale Tudo first came out many FMA'ers over here took to it (my wife is also a former British Vale Tudo Champion), but as the rules where added in the interest on official consumption the rules pushed them away from it as it dicated that you became less and less of what you do and more and more a slave to the rules, hence most MMA guys now are looking all the same as the next guy and have become a style all on their own.

It is no longer about what art you do now, Ju Jitsu, Karate, Thai Boxing, Savate, Kung Fu or even FMA. MMA if we are honest about it now is about being an MMA'er who looks very much like the next MMA'er.

In MMA and if you ever competed in a MMA event its very difficult to present the pure technical aspect of any single style because of rules, your opponents skill and tactics, and your personal methods/style for winning the fight. In MMA what you can present easily is the fundamentals and basics in the arts you have experience in using against a violent adversary. Also because basic martial arts techniques overlap across styles its hard define what the fighter is using or to say "see that guy is using Southeast Asian style kicks or East Asian style kicks" or "look he is using that west coast style of boxing or that dirty south Roy Jones Jr style of boxing" or "that's a silat elbow or ledrit elbow" or "that's bjj lock or catch catch lock". FMA fundementals and body mechanics are already used in sport MMA even though most fighters don't train exclusively in FMA, if you're good fighter you can identify them.

Also on a final note most people who train in MA are not fighters, however they know techniques that will protect them doesn't they have the skill or ability to apply it agaisnt someone with combat skills. Being or becoming a fighter takes alot of hardwork, dedicatiion, an unique mindset, and some talent. Every martial art school has people that train in that art and people that know how to truly fight/use that art in any situtation.