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It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Now that I've had the N1 for several weeks, I can clearly state that I'm happy with my decision. First off, my teacher said at my last lesson that it's as if a different student had walked in and taken my place. She continued to say she almost couldn't believe the improvement in my playing and technique in such a short period. I owe that to the AG's action. The sound isn't ideal, but I've grown used to it and I really appreciate the fact that it's always in tune!

I've noticed that I'm more inclined to play certain measures over and over without fear that I'll bother the neighbors in the condominium complex. I also play late at night with headphones. All in all, I'm happy with the AG N1.

Here's a side note: I ordered a pair of Sennheiser HD 650s and didn't notice any descernable improvement in sound over my less expensive ones, so I sent them back. They were also less comfortable than my previous set.

Susan, I am happy that you kept your N1 and that it helped you to improve your piano playing. Can you tell me which head phones you were using? My sony MDR-V900 seems to do a pretty good job, but I want to try out a different brand for comparision. What do you recommend for clarity with some bass?

It's refreshing to see you change your mind in this open forum and am glad you're getting everything that the AG was designed for.

I'm going to be the child here (cause I can't resist...) and say I told ya so. It's miles ahead of any upright or old grand

You can always visit piano stores, religious kiosks, friends, and your teacher to play on a real grand and someday you might even be in the position to have your own. But even then, I think having an AG has merit.

No, it really isn't. If it were, they would sell more of them. It has a certain advantage because of the action to some customers. It terms of sound, my Yamaha U3 upright easily smokes it. The AG doesn't have the dynamic range, the sustain, or the natural decay of a real piano. The looped samples are a major shortcoming of the AG. It's inexcusable that such a product cuts corners on sound when it would have been so easy to put in full length samples. If that meant putting a couple of hundred dollars worth of better hardware in there, so be it. The AG should have been a no-compromise instrument - at least in terms of action and sound samples. They only got it half right. To some, the action means more than the sound. They are the ones who are happy with their AG. The AG is nice, but let's not get too carried away by what it can do.

The AG doesn't have the dynamic range, the sustain, or the natural decay of a real piano. The looped samples are a major shortcoming of the AG.

I'm listening to the N3 DPBSD MP3 again and the note decays are really too short IMO. The pedal sympathetic resonance isn't bad, but the algorithm is perhaps too simplistic because it seems to accentuate the sound of some of the loops (which are also quite short) rather than mask them. The looping sound during the silent replay test is quite obnoxious, and on many notes there is a gradual timbre change during the crossfade from attack to loop that is somewhat unnatural sounding.

The short decay time could lead to bad pedaling habits long-term, as one might be inclined to hold the pedal down more in an attempt to get more out of it. The AG might make a good second piano if one already owns a good acoustic, or make a good VST controller, but as a main axe is probably asking too much of it IMO.

No, it really isn't. If it were, they would sell more of them. It has a certain advantage because of the action to some customers. It terms of sound, my Yamaha U3 upright easily smokes it. The AG doesn't have the dynamic range, the sustain, or the natural decay of a real piano. The looped samples are a major shortcoming of the AG. It's inexcusable that such a product cuts corners on sound when it would have been so easy to put in full length samples. If that meant putting a couple of hundred dollars worth of better hardware in there, so be it. The AG should have been a no-compromise instrument - at least in terms of action and sound samples. They only got it half right. To some, the action means more than the sound. They are the ones who are happy with their AG. The AG is nice, but let's not get too carried away by what it can do.

I appreciate the aesthetics of an acoustic instrument and if I had the money and space I'd certainly have both. But for people that don't live by themselves in a house and are not already accomplished players, I stand by my post.

As far as why they don't sell better...they're expensive. A used upright or cheap Casio is probably the instrument of choice. IMO, having great action and a tuned instrument and the ability to play stealth is an advantage for many people.

The other issue with this constant debate is based of what type of music is being played. I play mostly jazz and occasionally classical. I can certainly understand someone playing classical getting more feedback from an acoustic but I don't think the decay,variety of timbre, soft pedal is very good. Give me the tuned AG every time.

As I've said before on this site, I owned a Steinway K 52" upright, that my piano tuner called "one of the best uprights he's every played or heard." Since I decided to part ways with it for AG, I feel I've made great strides at practicing more thoroughly and am always inspired by the feel (and sound) of it. I guess, I'm a "glass 1/2 full guy" and don't waste time trying to find fault with it. The good outweighs the bad and never think that I made the wrong choice.

Here's a side note: I ordered a pair of Sennheiser HD 650s and didn't notice any descernable improvement in sound over my less expensive ones, so I sent them back. They were also less comfortable than my previous set.

Any improvement in the headphones are not going to overcome the inherent sound quality. Have you tried a software based solution? If you are after better sound, that will be a big improvement.

Do you find the touch and response very similar to the piano played at your lessons? (which I assume is a grand piano)

I have been flip-flopping between an N1 or a cheap grand... and I'm leaning towards the N1. I really don't have a good space for a grand piano (I can fit it in my lounge but it's not ideal), and the fact the N1 is small yet has a genuine action and comes with the ability to practice with headphones is really appealing. I can always get a real grand later when I have more space (and I will be better at playing having practiced on an N1!) I hope to actually try one next week!

I appreciate the aesthetics of an acoustic instrument and if I had the money and space I'd certainly have both. But for people that don't live by themselves in a house and are not already accomplished players, I stand by my post.

It's not just aesthetics - it's better sound from real strings and hammers.

Nobody has ever disputed their utility - they can be played silently/quietly. They have a grand-like action (minus the connection to high quality sound, minus the damper weight, so not really an exact copy of a grand action.) You made a statement which is highly debatable - that an AG is miles ahead of any upright. Many would disagree with you.

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As far as why they don't sell better...they're expensive. A used upright or cheap Casio is probably the instrument of choice.A new upright still costs more than an AG. A cheap upright costs more than an N1. A high end upright costs more than an N3. And everything in between. More people buy uprights than AGs. The convenience and advantages of the AG notwithstanding.

[quote]IMO, having great action and a tuned instrument and the ability to play stealth is an advantage for many people.

That goes without question that that is one of the strong points of the AGs. Nobody is disputing that.

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The other issue with this constant debate is based of what type of music is being played. I play mostly jazz and occasionally classical. I can certainly understand someone playing classical getting more feedback from an acoustic but I don't think the decay,variety of timbre, soft pedal is very good. Give me the tuned AG every time.

Acoustic pianos can be tuned, you know. Aside from that, every shortcoming you list about the sound of an upright is worse on the AG. The looped samples, the poor decay, the lack of tonal variation, the boxy sound of the speakers. It's all there for anybody to hear. Tuning is only one parameter of a good piano sound.

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I guess, I'm a "glass 1/2 full guy" and don't waste time trying to find fault with it. The good outweighs the bad and never think that I made the wrong choice.

This isn't only about you though. For many people the acoustic offers far more. You are characterising yourself as a positive type, seeing the glass as half-full, but you are very negative about upright acoustic pianos - whereas I like them far more. You might as well call me a glass half-full type guy, with you being the one who wastes time finding fault with acoustics. There's no difference - apart from the preference and priorities we have.

Finally, nobody is trying to make you think you made the wrong choice. It's great that you are happy with your piano. But you invited a challenge by stating so categorically that an AG is miles ahead of any upright. That is your opinion, and the opinion of a minority. More people like upright acoustics - that's a fact.

It's inexcusable that such a product cuts corners on sound when it would have been so easy to put in full length samples.

Actually, there's a very good excuse for it: Yamaha has to worry about creating competition to their own acoustic products. AvantGrand with software piano-like samples would be too much of a sweet spot compared to an entry level baby grand.

Originally Posted By: dewster

The AG might make a good VST controller

6500 euros for a MIDI controller, now these are the times

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"There is nothing to piano playing besides producing the appropriate velocities on the appropriate keys at the appropriate time" (c) qvfarns

It's inexcusable that such a product cuts corners on sound when it would have been so easy to put in full length samples.

Actually, there's a very good excuse for it: Yamaha has to worry about creating competition to their own acoustic products. AvantGrand with software piano-like samples would be too much of a sweet spot compared to an entry level baby grand.

So in other words, they've deliberately sacrificed sound quality and emphasised other features so it doesn't step on the toes of its acoustic brethren. That's all I've been saying. I'm all for the other features, I just think the sound isn't up to scratch. At some point I expect them to change this philosophy and I think they'll build a truly spectacular AG. Until they get the sound right and stop being stingy with the sample size and resonance simulation, it's acoustic for me. Trust me, if they could make these AGs actually sound close to an acoustic - I'd buy one tomorrow.

kenboi2, the headphones I use are Ultrasone s-logic, made in Germany. They were around $100. I didn't notice any difference in sound quality with the AG between these and the much more expensive HD650. The Ultrasones are comfortable, too.

To all, yes, in a perfect world the sound would be better than it is on the AG, but as I've said, I've grown used to it. I'm quite happy with it now and appreciate the control I have playing certain pieces that I did not have with the upright. I decided to start this thread because I knew some people who were interested in buying an AG had followed the other thread. I wanted those people in particular to know this hybrid has been a wonderful solution to my practice needs.

It's inexcusable that such a product cuts corners on sound when it would have been so easy to put in full length samples.

Actually, there's a very good excuse for it: Yamaha has to worry about creating competition to their own acoustic products. AvantGrand with software piano-like samples would be too much of a sweet spot compared to an entry level baby grand.

Yamaha really should set up the AGs to compete directly with their uprights and small grand pianos. Those who like piano via speakers can buy an AG. Those who cannot can buy the acoustic.

In the end I suspect that an AG sale is preferable for Yamaha. The AGs may be more profitable, since they've shed a great deal of the material and labor needed to manufacture an acoustic: No fine-wood rim, no iron plate, no soundboard, no bridges, no strings, no tuning pins, no prep, lower shipping weight. And it still sells at a high price.

In the end I suspect that an AG sale is preferable for Yamaha. The AGs may be more profitable, since they've shed a great deal of the material and labor needed to manufacture an acoustic: No fine-wood rim, no iron plate, no soundboard, no bridges, no strings, no tuning pins, no prep, lower shipping weight. And it still sells at a high price.

Sweet, for Yamaha.

+1 on that. particularly since its sounds like they didn't go out of their way to put exceptional software in it.

In the end I suspect that an AG sale is preferable for Yamaha. The AGs may be more profitable, since they've shed a great deal of the material and labor needed to manufacture an acoustic: No fine-wood rim, no iron plate, no soundboard, no bridges, no strings, no tuning pins, no prep, lower shipping weight. And it still sells at a high price.

I think this is true. Some time in the past, someone said on this forum that an AvantGrand sale makes about as much profit as a silent grand. Of course, that's all hearsay but I certainly could believe that there is a lot of cost savings in the AG relative to a nice acoustic.

As for whether they *should* be putting better technology into it...well, I think we'd all be happy if they did, but they completely own the hybrid market. Competition is what makes businesses put out great stuff. The closest competition to the N1 is upper-level digitals from other manufacturers, which it could be argued are not close substitutes. And those pianos all have looped samples as well. Until there is some really great competition for the AvantGrand line I don't see why Yamaha would bother improving them. Spending zero on R&D for a technology product that just keeps selling has to look good to the accountants.

...You can always visit piano stores, religious kiosks, friends, and your teacher to play on a real grand and someday you might even be in the position to have your own. But even then, I think having an AG has merit.

I had to trade in my N2 to make the deal for my acoustic grand, but I wish I had been able to keep it as a second option.

It didn't take me long to go out and get another, less-expensive-but-still-good DP to supplement the acoustic (which I love).

For many people, acoustic and digital is not "either/or" but rather "yes/and".

To all, yes, in a perfect world the sound would be better than it is on the AG, but as I've said, I've grown used to it. I'm quite happy with it now and appreciate the control I have playing certain pieces that I did not have with the upright. I decided to start this thread because I knew some people who were interested in buying an AG had followed the other thread. I wanted those people in particular to know this hybrid has been a wonderful solution to my practice needs.

This is good to know. I'm considering the same solution myself knowing that the sound will be a compromise but a hybrid is possibly better than a poor AP.

I'll toss in my two bits on the sound of the AvantGrands. I don't consider them to be on par with good VST's in terms of sound, but I spent a few hours going from one piano to another with my headphones recently (it was mostly a Yamaha shop) and I felt that the AG sound was very noticeably better than its other Yamaha peers. Significantly better than the best Clavinovas in the shop.

While it still has the same type of technical limitations almost all digital pianos have, on a subjective level, I felt that it was pretty good overall.

I'll toss in my two bits on the sound of the AvantGrands. I don't consider them to be on par with good VST's in terms of sound, but I spent a few hours going from one piano to another with my headphones recently (it was mostly a Yamaha shop) and I felt that the AG sound was very noticeably better than its other Yamaha peers. Significantly better than the best Clavinovas in the shop.

It's probably the longer attack samples and noticeable pedal sympathetic resonance that set it apart from the other Yamahas. Though even with that VST material it ain't.

...I spent a few hours going from one piano to another with my headphones recently (it was mostly a Yamaha shop) and I felt that the AG sound was very noticeably better than its other Yamaha peers. Significantly better than the best Clavinovas in the shop.

While it still has the same type of technical limitations almost all digital pianos have, on a subjective level, I felt that it was pretty good overall.

Hit the nail on the head. The AG is far from perfect but does a decent job. Those that consider it a grown-up Clavinova are wide of the mark; the AG is very superior.

I would choose the AG over a poor or ill-maintained acoustic. And I would choose it over many uprights that are themselves fair-to-middling. But a decent upright is a much more rewarding thing to play than the AG. And any good grand blows the AG away. But for those that are operating within the limitation that simply says an acoustic is out of the question (volume issues and perhaps those extremely sensitive to tuning issues) can't go far wrong with the AG. And as a practice tool specifically for technique-building - where feel is more important than sound - the AG is probably a better solution than other digitals.

Thank you, everyone. I'm glad it ended up to be the right choice for me, at least right now. The sound doesn't bother me much anymore. It's a wonderful practice instrument. As far as action, there is little or no adjustment now when I transition to my teacher's Bosendorfer.

As for whether they *should* be putting better technology into it...well, I think we'd all be happy if they did, but they completely own the hybrid market. Competition is what makes businesses put out great stuff. The closest competition to the N1 is upper-level digitals from other manufacturers, which it could be argued are not close substitutes. And those pianos all have looped samples as well. Until there is some really great competition for the AvantGrand line I don't see why Yamaha would bother improving them. Spending zero on R&D for a technology product that just keeps selling has to look good to the accountants.

It strikes me as strange that none of the other big manufacturers also jump on the hybrid wagon. Why aren't Kawai or Roland trying to make something similar?

I suspect Roland doesn't because they don't have the acoustic expertise and manufacturing capability. I just don't see that in their future.

Kawai could for sure, but they would have to feel that there is enough room in the hybrid market for two players. If they made one there would be basically no difference in action and they would have to compete on sound quality, which means more R&D and they would probably be also rans anyway because of the smaller brand recognition and distribution. And with two players the price might go down, which lowers incentive anyway. There's a big first-mover advantage, I think.

Not saying it's impossible. It would be cool, actually. I guess we can cross fingers. Somehow I actually think Kawai would do an even better job at it. Their engineers seem to be quite focused on action authenticity.

Not saying it's impossible. It would be cool, actually. I guess we can cross fingers. Somehow I actually think Kawai would do an even better job at it. Their engineers seem to be quite focused on action authenticity.

Of course Yamaha has an advantage since they've been developing the hybrid technology for years. However, I agree that Kawai might do an even better job if they tried! Imo Kawai beats Yamaha hands down when it comes to "ordinary" dps - at least in terms of action. My dream hybrid: Good action and speakers - AND a integrated mini-pc that is able to run software pianos. If Kawai did something like that they would still distinguish themselves from Yamaha. How hard can it be to accomplish that? This is 2012! (for some more days)

Of course Yamaha has an advantage since they've been developing the hybrid technology for years. However, I agree that Kawai might do an even better job if they tried! Imo Kawai beats Yamaha hands down when it comes to "ordinary" dps - at least in terms of action. My dream hybrid: Good action and speakers - AND a integrated mini-pc that is able to run software pianos. If Kawai did something like that they would still distinguish themselves from Yamaha. How hard can it be to accomplish that? This is 2012! (for some more days)

I'm afraid something like that is never going to happen. The reason is simple your dream hybrid will probably need to be priced somewhere below the most cheap baby grand. And the cheapest Kawai is GM-10 which costs ~8000,- Euros, so basically you will have a grand rim, soundboard, action and all the electronic together and you will price it lower? Also for running VST you will need computer and more importantly OS and M$ is heck expensive these days. So where is your price and where is your dealer margin?I think what Kawai does great is that they are constantly improving their DP actions like we've seen in RHII and GF. If you need hybrid, then go to Yamaha, but be prepared to pay nearly baby grand price. Now, what would you choose? Hybrid with so-so power/sound or real acoustic small grand? Well it also depends on music you are playing. I've seen people here playing jazz and be happy with hybrids and I've seen here people very unhappy with hybrids playing classical/romantic music. Also how much of real sound are able your neighbours to "survive"? Do you practice for an hour a day or for 5 hours a day 7 days in week? If the later the choice is probably obvious, if the former then real grand and kind of cheap DP would also do the job.... I really like unlimited possibilities provided by the current piano market. :-)

I agree with ClsscLib. It would be nice to have an acoustic as well as the AG. If I could only have one, I would pick the AG over again, for the grand action and ability to play silently. I may add an acoustic later.