The title sure does give the game away. This thread is about the two best German drivers to have had graced the F1 arena. One was a 7 times WDC, and another has already won 3 in what is really a very short stint as yet. They both have several things in common. Both are very focused on on-track performance than much else. Do a lot of work in the background, which is saying a lot, given i don't think that any driver in F1 takes it easy, so to speak of. Both are multilingual, a skill that should serve them well. One thing the younger German does better is handle PR, well, most of the times. All their strengths and with all their weaknesses, it is a proper shame that most of the racing fans will only come about to understand what a privilege it has been, only much later since their time has gone by. Well, you only have to see how Schumacher is usually spoken of in forums to understand this phenomenon. I call it, "ze German."

I'm just starting this thread to truly get a grasp of what is the majority thinking of them two. No this is not about who these two raced against, but if one insists, they've both raced against some proper big names. Michael had raced in times of Senna/ Prost and won GP's. Vettel raced amongst the grid with 6 WDC's.

One is arguably the greatest, the other may go on to be similarly regarded.

From Wikipedia (a lot of which has been documented before):

Quote:

Vettel's unexpected win at the 2008 Italian Grand Prix led the media to dub him the "Baby Schumi", "New Schumacher", but Vettel played down the comparison stating he wanted to be the "New Vettel". He was not just dubbed this for his nationality, but also because of his driving style, his concentration and the hands-on role he plays behind the scenes with his team of engineers. One difference is that Vettel, unlike Schumacher, names his cars: Julie (2008), Kate, Kate's Dirty Sister (2009), Luscious Liz, Randy Mandy (2010), Kinky Kylie (2011), and Abbey (2012).Nevertheless, the similarities are marked. Like Schumacher, Vettel grew up in a small town with an everyday background—Schumacher's father a bricklayer and Vettel's a carpenter. Both had their first taste of racing at the Kerpen karting track near Cologne, not far from the Nürburgring. Vettel began driving in his garden lapping the garden many times, not even stopping to eat or shower, before he could legally take to the roads, and said his passion for cars was nurtured by watching Schumacher compete.After winning his first championship in 2010, and being hailed as the 'Next Schumacher', Vettel has stated he did not want to aim for Schumacher's record after learning how hard it was to get one championship under his belt, though he would like to win more. It was in their next season that the two drivers began to dominate the sport, both clinching their second successive title before the season was finished (unlike the previous year) in only their fourth full season. Both drivers became the youngest ever double World Champion at the time, by doing this.In 2011, Pirelli's Paul Hembery was impressed when Sebastian Vettel was the only driver to take the time to visit the factory and talk to the tyre manufacturer to gain a better insight and improve their racing. The "only other driver that asks us a lot of questions" is Michael Schumacher. Hemberey "found that interesting. It is like seeing the master and the protégé at work."

And the Kerpen track was founded by the man who should have been the first German F1 WDC, Wolfgang von Trips, perhaps the real master of this story.

_________________"We can not drive slower, just to make the races more exciting." Alain Prost

In 2011, Pirelli's Paul Hembery was impressed when Sebastian Vettel was the only driver to take the time to visit the factory and talk to the tyre manufacturer to gain a better insight and improve their racing. The "only other driver that asks us a lot of questions" is Michael Schumacher. Hemberey "found that interesting. It is like seeing the master and the protégé at work."

Interesting.

Who are the absolute trolls that voted that both MS and SV are overrated, lol.

In 2011, Pirelli's Paul Hembery was impressed when Sebastian Vettel was the only driver to take the time to visit the factory and talk to the tyre manufacturer to gain a better insight and improve their racing. The "only other driver that asks us a lot of questions" is Michael Schumacher. Hemberey "found that interesting. It is like seeing the master and the protégé at work."

Interesting.

Who are the absolute trolls that voted that both MS and SV are overrated, lol.

People who are entitled to their own opinion.

People will think Schumacher is overrated in the same way peoplw will think Hamilton, Alonso, Button, Raikkonen, Senna, Prost, Fangio, Clark etc are all overrated. That's life and their opinion. Doesn't make it wrong though.

In 2011, Pirelli's Paul Hembery was impressed when Sebastian Vettel was the only driver to take the time to visit the factory and talk to the tyre manufacturer to gain a better insight and improve their racing. The "only other driver that asks us a lot of questions" is Michael Schumacher. Hemberey "found that interesting. It is like seeing the master and the protégé at work."

Interesting.

Who are the absolute trolls that voted that both MS and SV are overrated, lol.

People who are entitled to their own opinion.

People will think Schumacher is overrated in the same way peoplw will think Hamilton, Alonso, Button, Raikkonen, Senna, Prost, Fangio, Clark etc are all overrated. That's life and their opinion. Doesn't make it wrong though.

Doesn't mean they aren't trolls either.

Especially given that the poll options have them declining to say either Vettel or Schumacher are "great".

In 2011, Pirelli's Paul Hembery was impressed when Sebastian Vettel was the only driver to take the time to visit the factory and talk to the tyre manufacturer to gain a better insight and improve their racing. The "only other driver that asks us a lot of questions" is Michael Schumacher. Hemberey "found that interesting. It is like seeing the master and the protégé at work."

Interesting.

Who are the absolute trolls that voted that both MS and SV are overrated, lol.

People who are entitled to their own opinion.

People will think Schumacher is overrated in the same way peoplw will think Hamilton, Alonso, Button, Raikkonen, Senna, Prost, Fangio, Clark etc are all overrated. That's life and their opinion. Doesn't make it wrong though.

Doesn't mean they aren't trolls either.

Well if that is their genuine opinion. You can't call people a troll just because you disagree with them.

In 2011, Pirelli's Paul Hembery was impressed when Sebastian Vettel was the only driver to take the time to visit the factory and talk to the tyre manufacturer to gain a better insight and improve their racing. The "only other driver that asks us a lot of questions" is Michael Schumacher. Hemberey "found that interesting. It is like seeing the master and the protégé at work."

Interesting.

Who are the absolute trolls that voted that both MS and SV are overrated, lol.

People who are entitled to their own opinion.

People will think Schumacher is overrated in the same way peoplw will think Hamilton, Alonso, Button, Raikkonen, Senna, Prost, Fangio, Clark etc are all overrated. That's life and their opinion. Doesn't make it wrong though.

Doesn't mean they aren't trolls either.

Well if that is their genuine opinion. You can't call people a troll just because you disagree with them.

If someone thinks Chandhok is better than Schumacher, well, he's a nice guy, but they are simply wrong. Or perhaps joking.

I once argued with someone over the answer to a maths equation (it was in Uni, not just general pub chat surprisingly), and they argued that our difference in answer was down to personal opinion, which made me laugh. How can you have an opinion on an answer to an equation? Its either right or friggin' wrong! Turns out we were both wrong though, oops.

But whether its someone's opinion, there's still cases where you still have to wonder how someone forms such an opinion. Statistically, both drivers are great. Reputationally, thats where opinion will come into it. By reputation, Schumacher is great in my opinion, Vettel should become a TV personality, I much prefer him out of the car.

_________________"You are the universe expressing itself as a Human for a little while..."

I've always wondered how much of the "hating" is because they are German...even if it weighs on people subconsciously. As an American, its just not something that comes into play here really, especially for my generation, but I get the distinct feeling its an underlying cause for a lot of unhappiness on the other side of the pond.

I think both are overrated to an extent because the stats show that they are the best ever drivers and I simply don't believe that. Don't get me wrong both are great but I wouldn't say Schumacher was any better than Raikkonen, Hakkinen or Montoya in their prime. The difference was that Schumacher had the equipment and an uncompetitive team mate. Vettel is very much in the same boat. Overall Red Bull has had the strongest car in every season since he joined the team in 2009 and Webber just hasn't been good enough to consistently challenge him.

I think both are overrated to an extent because the stats show that they are the best ever drivers and I simply don't believe that. Don't get me wrong both are great but I wouldn't say Schumacher was any better than Raikkonen, Hakkinen or Montoya in their prime. The difference was that Schumacher had the equipment and an uncompetitive team mate. Vettel is very much in the same boat.

Well the win % says that Fangio or Clark are the best doesn't it? It's not all Schumacher or all Vettel.

Hakkinen (at his prime) you might have a point, Kimi you might have half a point (I still struggle to imagine Schumi being outqualified 10-9 by Grosjean at the age of 31/32). Montoya?! Don't think you have a point there... Schumi's little brother outqualified him more often than not at Williams.

I read somewhere that Schumi's teammates have won 55 races between them. I know he never raced against a Prost or Senna like Senna and Prost respectively, but these were very competent drivers who might have been higher rated if they were not compared to Schumacher in the same car. Barrichello beat Button many times as a teammate, even though he was 35+. And Button is a good driver.

Schumacher and Vettel are also very good in the wet. Senna was great in the wet. Jackie Stewart too. Prost didn't commit to wet racing so I can't really say that I know about him. It's the hallmark of a great driver. Probably the most important one. Again Hakkinen had the best speed of the three you mentioned in the wet, and I think he and only he should really stand alongside Schumacher and Vettel at this point.

I think both are overrated to an extent because the stats show that they are the best ever drivers and I simply don't believe that. Don't get me wrong both are great but I wouldn't say Schumacher was any better than Raikkonen, Hakkinen or Montoya in their prime. The difference was that Schumacher had the equipment and an uncompetitive team mate. Vettel is very much in the same boat. Overall Red Bull has had the strongest car in every season since he joined the team in 2009 and Webber just hasn't been good enough to consistently challenge him.

Both are great, both are overrated.

Oh... and don't mention the war.

How did Montoya's, Kimi's and Mika's team mates hinder them in any way? In fact I remember DC moving out for Mika in a couple of races. Are you sure you are not being unfair there?

How did Montoya's, Kimi's and Mika's team mates hinder them in any way? In fact I remember DC moving out for Mika in a couple of races. Are you sure you are not being unfair there?

They didn't help them, the point I was making is that Irvine, Verstappen, Rubens and Massa offer no resistence what-so-ever to Schumacher. Look at Austria 2002, when Rubens was Michael's closest championship rival he still moved over and let him win. Schumacher never had a battle like Hill and JV in 1996 or Senna/Prost at Mclaren.

Montoya, Kimi and Mika all had competitive team mates. They may not have been as quick but they were at least allowed to race each other. Remember DC at Spa in '99 or Ralf winning a couple of races in '03. That would never been allowed to happen at Ferrari in the Schumacher era.

If you put this way then with what is better Alonso than Schumacher was and Vettel is?I mean he also has no competing teamate.

People forget that Schumacher fight and worked 4 years to have the best equipment from 96' to 2000.People forget that he won enough races with not the best equipment like Barcelona 96' and others.

The first bit I really don't know what you're getting at. I'm saying Schumacher had it easier because he never had a team mate who was allowed to race him. It really isn't that hard to figure out what I'm saying.

Yes Schumacher worked hard to make Ferrari what it was 10 years ago. I take nothing away from him for that BUT he did have a lot of help from Ross Brawn and Rory Byrne, two of the best people in F1 in their respective roles. Ferrari also had the deepest pockets in F1.

Yes he did win races when inferior machinery, he was a great driver I'm not disputing that. So has Alonso, Hamilton, Raikkonen, Vettel, Button, Hill, Frentzen, Trulli, Panis....

How did Montoya's, Kimi's and Mika's team mates hinder them in any way? In fact I remember DC moving out for Mika in a couple of races. Are you sure you are not being unfair there?

They didn't help them, the point I was making is that Irvine, Verstappen, Rubens and Massa offer no resistence what-so-ever to Schumacher. Look at Austria 2002, when Rubens was Michael's closest championship rival he still moved over and let him win. Schumacher never had a battle like Hill and JV in 1996 or Senna/Prost at Mclaren.

Montoya, Kimi and Mika all had competitive team mates. They may not have been as quick but they were at least allowed to race each other. Remember DC at Spa in '99 or Ralf winning a couple of races in '03. That would never been allowed to happen at Ferrari in the Schumacher era.

You said uncompetitive, that's why I asked. Ralf won races, DC won races, Rubens won races. All of them were good drivers, but not really WDC material. But I think the reason that Schumacher's team mates were not allowed to race him was that he was so much better than them anyway.

Let's indeed look at 2002 as you mentioned. Barrichello was the closest rival in 2002, but if you want to be fair you have to present all the facts. After the 3 first races Barichello had exactly 3 DNF's. Come the 5th race he had 4 races that he didn't finish. By the 6th GP (when Barrichello moved over), Barrichello had exactly 6 points, when Schumacher had 44. Which one would you consider as the 2nd driver in this instance, in a team that always liked the No1 driver model?

I really can not figure out if he is overrated or not. I hear so many different things and opinions I have given up coming to a definitive opinion of my own. Which is not like me, I am usual very black and white.

Some days I think Lewis, Alonso and Seb are better, and I think Kimi was better afrom 2003 onwards but did not have the circumstances to prove it.

Other days other than Senna and maybe Prost, I think he is the best driver ever. Its all opinions and it is hard to compare different eras, but Schumi for me is a bit of a mystery.

I once argued with someone over the answer to a maths equation (it was in Uni, not just general pub chat surprisingly), and they argued that our difference in answer was down to personal opinion, which made me laugh. How can you have an opinion on an answer to an equation? Its either right or friggin' wrong! Turns out we were both wrong though, oops.

But whether its someone's opinion, there's still cases where you still have to wonder how someone forms such an opinion. Statistically, both drivers are great. Reputationally, thats where opinion will come into it. By reputation, Schumacher is great in my opinion, Vettel should become a TV personality, I much prefer him out of the car.

/MATH

Actually if we are being rigorous, almost all mathematical equations are a matter of opinion.

2^chi(0) = chi(1).

That's the continuum hypothesis. It really is a matter of opinion. Some mathematicians believe it is true, more mathematicians believe it is false, and even more mathematicians don't care or have no opinion.

Of course, most of these equations are of no practical interest even to pure mathematicians (or logicians), but it cannot be denied that they exist. In fact almost all equations are that way.

\MATH

But yeah, someone who thinks Schumacher isn't great is pretty much a fuckhead.

I once argued with someone over the answer to a maths equation (it was in Uni, not just general pub chat surprisingly), and they argued that our difference in answer was down to personal opinion, which made me laugh. How can you have an opinion on an answer to an equation? Its either right or friggin' wrong! Turns out we were both wrong though, oops.

But whether its someone's opinion, there's still cases where you still have to wonder how someone forms such an opinion. Statistically, both drivers are great. Reputationally, thats where opinion will come into it. By reputation, Schumacher is great in my opinion, Vettel should become a TV personality, I much prefer him out of the car.

/MATH

Actually if we are being rigorous, almost all mathematical equations are a matter of opinion.

2^chi(0) = chi(1).

That's the continuum hypothesis. It really is a matter of opinion. Some mathematicians believe it is true, more mathematicians believe it is false, and even more mathematicians don't care or have no opinion.

Of course, most of these equations are of no practical interest even to pure mathematicians (or logicians), but it cannot be denied that they exist. In fact almost all equations are that way.

\MATH

But yeah, someone who thinks Schumacher isn't great is pretty much a fuckhead.

I once argued with someone over the answer to a maths equation (it was in Uni, not just general pub chat surprisingly), and they argued that our difference in answer was down to personal opinion, which made me laugh. How can you have an opinion on an answer to an equation? Its either right or friggin' wrong! Turns out we were both wrong though, oops.

But whether its someone's opinion, there's still cases where you still have to wonder how someone forms such an opinion. Statistically, both drivers are great. Reputationally, thats where opinion will come into it. By reputation, Schumacher is great in my opinion, Vettel should become a TV personality, I much prefer him out of the car.

/MATH

Actually if we are being rigorous, almost all mathematical equations are a matter of opinion.

2^chi(0) = chi(1).

That's the continuum hypothesis. It really is a matter of opinion. Some mathematicians believe it is true, more mathematicians believe it is false, and even more mathematicians don't care or have no opinion.

Of course, most of these equations are of no practical interest even to pure mathematicians (or logicians), but it cannot be denied that they exist. In fact almost all equations are that way.

\MATH

But yeah, someone who thinks Schumacher isn't great is pretty much a fuckhead.

Well, I didn't expect that... I should have specified the type of mathematical equation... me and my friend were discussing forces on a design component, so less likely to come down to opinion. But I like that equation Eva09, you've given me something to look at now I'm done with interplanetary forces

_________________"You are the universe expressing itself as a Human for a little while..."

The difference is Ralf and DC WERE allowed to compete and were, by definition, competitive to an extent. Schumacher's team mates were nev... ah feck it this is really old ground. I'm off for a beer.

I get v tired of the old "Schumi's team mates were never allowed to compete" line.

Yes, I agree that he enjoyed the best strategies, but if his team mates were never allowed to compete - why does everyone always point to Austria '02? (Forgetting that Schumi gave away the next race win to Barri to compensate.)

IIRC, during the dominant Ferrari years Schumi/Barri were allowed to compete until the last stop for fuel - ONLY then were they supposed to hold position. Schumi broke this rule once (from memory - but I can't remember the race) when he overtook Barri at a chicane who, understandably, was v angry as it was against 'Ferrari rules'....

At the end of the day its hard to argue that Barri/Massa were as good as Schumi, but were only comprehensively beaten 'cos they didn't enjoy the best strategies.

The difference is Ralf and DC WERE allowed to compete and were, by definition, competitive to an extent. Schumacher's team mates were nev... ah feck it this is really old ground. I'm off for a beer.

I get v tired of the old "Schumi's team mates were never allowed to compete" line.

Yes, I agree that he enjoyed the best strategies, but if his team mates were never allowed to compete - why does everyone always point to Austria '02? (Forgetting that Schumi gave away the next race win to Barri to compensate.)

IIRC, during the dominant Ferrari years Schumi/Barri were allowed to compete until the last stop for fuel - ONLY then were they supposed to hold position. Schumi broke this rule once (from memory - but I can't remember the race) when he overtook Barri at a chicane who, understandably, was v angry as it was against 'Ferrari rules'....

At the end of the day its hard to argue that Barri/Massa were as good as Schumi, but were only comprehensively beaten 'cos they didn't enjoy the best strategies.

The difference is Ralf and DC WERE allowed to compete and were, by definition, competitive to an extent. Schumacher's team mates were nev... ah feck it this is really old ground. I'm off for a beer.

I get v tired of the old "Schumi's team mates were never allowed to compete" line.

Yes, I agree that he enjoyed the best strategies, but if his team mates were never allowed to compete - why does everyone always point to Austria '02? (Forgetting that Schumi gave away the next race win to Barri to compensate.)

IIRC, during the dominant Ferrari years Schumi/Barri were allowed to compete until the last stop for fuel - ONLY then were they supposed to hold position. Schumi broke this rule once (from memory - but I can't remember the race) when he overtook Barri at a chicane who, understandably, was v angry as it was against 'Ferrari rules'....

At the end of the day its hard to argue that Barri/Massa were as good as Schumi, but were only comprehensively beaten 'cos they didn't enjoy the best strategies.

There was not as good as him, But Nico Rosberg is.

Trouble with that statement is Rosberg was still in training pants when Schumacher was winning against Prost/ Senna.

Didn't Murray Walker(man who saw legends race) say once that Schumacher was better than 'em all he has seen? If he was good enough for someone who saw all of 'em race, I'm more than happy to accept as much.

Pirelli's Paul Hembery was impressed when Sebastian Vettel was the only driver to take the time to visit the factory and talk to the tyre manufacturer to gain a better insight and improve their racing. The "only other driver that asks us a lot of questions" is Michael Schumacher. Hemberey "found that interesting. It is like seeing the master and the protégé at work."

Pirelli's Paul Hembery was impressed when Sebastian Vettel was the only driver to take the time to visit the factory and talk to the tyre manufacturer to gain a better insight and improve their racing. The "only other driver that asks us a lot of questions" is Michael Schumacher. Hemberey "found that interesting. It is like seeing the master and the protégé at work."

Really? Do you think that Vettel would get any kind of advantage by kissing their... shoes?

A bit off-topic, but does anyone know (or tell me where I can find) the number of wins by German F1 drivers since Michael Schumacher burst onto the scene?

Make that since Spa 1991, what % of races have been won by German drivers and how does this compare to other nationalities since?

Just curious about the impact Schumacher M and his success made on the sport and the effect it had on bringing young German drivers like Vettel into F1.

Apart from these two, I imagine guys like HH Frentzen and R Schumacher had a dozen wins between them contributing to the %.....

We have also had quite a few other German drivers....like Sutil, Hulkenberg, Rosberg, and Glock.Any idea where German drivers rank in terms of no. of starts compared to other nationalities since Schumacher's first race????

A bit off-topic, but does anyone know (or tell me where I can find) the number of wins by German F1 drivers since Michael Schumacher burst onto the scene?

Make that since Spa 1991, what % of races have been won by German drivers and how does this compare to other nationalities since?

Just curious about the impact Schumacher M and his success made on the sport and the effect it had on bringing young German drivers like Vettel into F1.

Apart from these two, I imagine guys like HH Frentzen and R Schumacher had a dozen wins between them contributing to the %.....

We have also had quite a few other German drivers....like Sutil, Hulkenberg, Rosberg, and Glock.Any idea where German drivers rank in terms of no. of starts compared to other nationalities since Schumacher's first race????

I make it 403 races, including Spa 1991 since Schumi's debut. That makes it a 31.5% success rate. When you consider however that all but 10 victories were from Schumacher or Vettel, or only 36 not from Schumi, it doesn't look as impressive. For race starts, I won't bother too much as Rosberg was probably more influenced by his father and only the current generation are likely to have entered the sport influenced by Michael.

Back to stats, before the Schumi era there were only 12 wins from German born drivers (Rindt 6, von Trips 2, Mass 1), or 3 from German registered drivers. All were from a similar era, same as Ralf, HH and (at a stretch) Nico Rosberg. I'm sure Schumi's and Vettel's influences will continue, but discount them and we've had two generations of German GP winners and domination has only come from two drivers.

_________________"We can not drive slower, just to make the races more exciting." Alain Prost

Probably not relevant but there were a lot of German GP winners in pre F1 days.Carraciolla, Lang, von Brauchitsch, Stuck, Rosemeyer Von Delius, Muller etc come to mind.Also not sure how Beloff would have performed if he had lived.

_________________Champions are made from something they have deep inside of them - a desire, a dream, a vision. They have last-minute stamina, they have to be a little faster, they have the skill & the will but the will must be stronger than the skill. Muhammad Ali