Friday, August 8, 2008

MOP (Pg 12) Interview w/ Jose Arroyo

I received an email from Jose in regard to the response to his postings on Mosaic of Pain. After a couple of conversations we both agreed that telling his story may answer a lot of questions and give his perspective on Mosaic and why Mosaic is upset that he is writing about his experience. This is a rather long interview but I believe to be an important read. Here is his story:

How were you introduced to Mosaic?I like to tell people that Macintosh is responsible for bringing me to God. During Spring Break of 2006, I was in the process of attempting to find a church closer to my home in Pasadena. I had been attending the church Vineyard-Pomona in Pomona for the past 8 months, having been introduced to it by my former boss with Chino Unified School. Every day as part of my daily routine, I go online and visit several sites that deal with Apple news and tutorials. On Wednesday, April 8, I came across a site called allforces.com, written by a guy named Melvin R. I was impressed by his knowledge of Apple technology. Upon checking his bio, I realized that he lived in Los Angeles at the time, and that he was also Puerto Rican like me. I decided that I needed to meet him since after all I didn't know of any Puerto Ricans in the area. While attempting to find more information about him, I noticed that he mentioned he attended Mosaic and it had a direct link to its main site.

Intrigued, I clicked on it and that is how I came across Mosaic's site. It piqued my curiosity and upon finding out that they had a Pasadena service merely a two minute drive away, I emailed Melvin and told him that I would attend the following Sunday, which turned out to be Easter Sunday, April 11, 2006. Upon arriving, I was immediately approached by friendly people, the first one being Dana E. who worked in the Connections Department. When I mentioned that it was my first time, and that I was planning to meet Melvin R., she told me that she worked right next to Melvin at Mosaic. You see, Melvin R. was at the time in charge of all of the computer technology at Mosaic, overseeing the creation of all websites and their maintenance. I was extremely impressed by how at home and at ease Dana and others made me feel right away in the middle of a huge crowd of people.

To this day, no other church I have visited had made such an immediate impression such as Mosaic. I was introduced to Erwin right away prior to the service. When I mentioned that I was a photographer and was very impressed with such a variety of an artistic community, he responded: "Great, perhaps you may end up taking the photos in my next book." At the time I thought of his comment as simple flattery and didn't think much of it afterwards. Months later, in my attempt to bring up the topic of homosexuality, he would tell me that he knew right away when we were introduced the year before that I was gay and that I didn't need to tell him. Once again, I was taken aback by such statement, but failed to see the underlined arrogance. After all, Erwin was a master at saying anything that would make you like him, even to the point of being able to mask statements that in reality were more of an insult to you. The following Sunday, by some sort of coincidence, I met this guy named Steve C. as I was walking inside for service. He introduced me to his wife, Paty and shared that it was his first time in Mosaic in Pasadena. He and his wife had just arrived from outside the country where they had been performing missionary work.

Paty turned out to be Erwin's foster daughter. I clicked with both of them and their beautiful kids, and proceeded to sit together in service the next couple of weeks. A month later, Forge, Mosaic's men's ministry was sponsoring its annual retreat called Highlander. I had never identified myself as being into sports, choosing instead to deal in the arts with my photography and my Apple geekery. Yet, while getting ready to enter the auditorium one Sunday, Steve who was originally from Brazil and an avid soccer player, said to me: "Jose, you need to go to Highlander." I laughed at the prospect, but Paty turned to me with a sincere serious look in her face and said: Jose, I think you are destined to attend. I laughed nervously back at her and told her she was crazy. Little did I know her words would turn prophetic. Eventually, Steve convinced me to sign up for Highlander on a Sunday I was supposed to meet with Melvin at service. He slept in and stood me up. I called him and told him that as punishment, I had signed him up for Highlander and was going with me since Steve had gotten his way. In the years that Melvin had worked at Mosaic, he had always managed to avoid attending Highlander because like me, he saw himself more as the artist type than an athlete.

Highlander arrived in May of 2006 and both Melvin and I drove to the mountains dreading the idea of spending a weekend among a bunch of testosterone filled men playing in the woods. God had a different plan for me. The very next morning, after listening to a workshop on meditation and listening for God's voice, I spent some time reflecting on the last time I had heard God's voice speaking to me. It had been a very long time. That night, Erwin was scheduled to speak and in the end asked of the audience for men to stand up if they wanted to make a commitment and invite Jesus into their lives. People including Melvin will later tell me that I was the first one to stand up and walk to the back of the room. God, with His amazing sense of humor, had managed to get me to accept Him into my life among a group of crazed testosterone filled men in the woods.

How was Mosaic different from your past experience with church?Having been raised Roman Catholic and attending private Catholic school all my life, I had never seen a church with no altar, where a pastor would dress fashionably and where instead of a choir, you had a live rock band. In addition, it used dance, imagery and drama to deliver its message onstage. As an artist myself, I was drawn to the concept I would hear emphasized over and over, that Mosaic was a safe place to develop and maximize your God given talents. I felt I had arrived home because everyone was so interested in my talents and were so friendly. No other church has managed to perfect the way newcomers are treated at Mosaic. Over and over I would hear that at Mosaic they would love you for you, no matter what your past and journey had been. It was after completing the process and ceremony to become part of Volunteer Staff that I was told, they were no longer placing their emphasis on loving me unconditionally. Instead, now it was my purpose to serve others and bring them to Christ as they had done to me, plus now they had the right to point out the areas of my life that needed to be changed.Reading through your blog, I saw a picture of your baptism, tell me about that.

After giving my life to Christ at Highlander in May 2006, I chose to be baptized in July of the same year, on what it turned out to be the same day as my natural birthday. The man and woman that you see on each side of me, are Melvin and his wife Lilia, whom I asked to baptized me. In addition, I had grown close to the group of summer interns at Mosaic, opening my house to them to hang out, teach them about Macintosh technology and have them do their laundry, so they were extremely excited. There is a video one of the interns taped of the baptism and it includes appearances by Erwin and Rickey W. among others expressing their congratulations. I can provide you with excerpts of it if you wish. Unfortunately, Melvin and Lilia would choose to move to New York by the end of the summer, leaving Mosaic and myself behind, trusting that I would be in good hands.

It appears that you have grown close to some at Mosaic in a short period of time. Tell me about a week in the life of Jose at Mosaic. I am guessing it involved more than a Sunday morning service and lunch afterwards.

Absolutely. I remember reflecting back on the fact that one day I was a stranger among the huge community of Mosaic and all of a sudden, everyone, especially at the leader ship level knew my name and often had a comment to share with me about how I had been so instrumental and helpful in assisting with a particular task. In January of 2007, I decided to take a leave of absence from my position as a teacher since I felt that I was growing discontent with teaching as a profession. As a result, my daily routine became going to Mosaic every day of the week and assist with any task that usually involved technology and computer skills. Eric B. one day stopped me in the hall and asked me if I was part of paid staff since he noticed how I would be at the offices every day from morning to afternoon and seemed so involved with so many projects. The truth was that I needed to fill my life with meaning and I wanted so desperately to be liked and accepted by others and my previous experiences in life had taught me that I could achieve that by volunteering to help others with my skills. In addition, since I had arrived at Mosaic pretty broken spiritually and emotionally, I decided to throw myself in the middle of, and surround myself by anything that had to do with Mosaic, since I viewed its community as my foster family.

A typical week would include designing or maintaining several of their web sites, assisting with editing and uploading of the video and audio podcasts, attending the filming of a short video and do the still photography, attend film team meetings, administer the film team site's online forum of its members, hang out with the team of in terns as well as the Protégé's at Mosaic, assist the stage building team with building the latest theme on stage, setting up and tearing down chairs and tables at the Pasadena services. In addition, I got to attend both Origins '07 and Awaken '08 conferences by manning one of their video cameras during the entire conference. In August of 2007, I volunteered my place for the first Men's Celebrate Recovery Group held weekly for almost a year until my decision to leave Mosaic. As a result, the only friends in my life were members of Mosaic. I didn't know nor have time to associate with anyone outside Mosaic. Because of that, when the time came to realize that I could no longer feel at home and part of its community of faith, love and hope, I literally was left with no one in my life.

Tell me about your decision to become a part of the Volunteer Staff. What type of requirements and process did you go through? Did you realize what you were signing up for?

I'm the type of person that when I come across something new or decide to commit to a new goal, I go all the way, so it felt like the natural thing to check into how and what were the requirements of becoming an official member of Mosaic. I believe it was during the ceremony of my baptism which also included a separate event called "commissioning" which got my curiosity going. In addition, having been introduced by my friend Melvin and having seen what he oversaw at Mosaic, inspired me to want to offer my services as well. Looking back, I guess that was the beginning of many situations I would encounter at Mosaic where an explanation of a process didn't quite made sense or came across a little confusing. They explained to me that I didn't need to become an "official member" in order to attend Mosaic, and in fact, they discouraged the use of the term "member", substituting it with "volunteer staff", I guess as a way to differentiate the term from paid staff. On the other hand, in order to take part in projects that may give you access to responsibilities as a leader (such as small group leader) or access to areas that I had an interest due to my technical skills, you needed to go through the process of becoming part of the Volunteer staff. However, since Melvin had now moved to New York and many of his responsibilities regarding the podcast, creation and maintenance of web sites were not filled right away, and I on the other hand had expressed that I was a professional photographer and web designer, I got to assume a large number of responsibilities that in my opinion would had taken someone else a longer time to acquire at Mosaic.

Having come to Mosaic in April 2006, by September, I was fully involved with the Film Team ministry as a photographer, and very soon after as the web designer and administrator of its site. Once the word got out and other people in leadership saw my talents with the Film Team ministry, other ministries such as Forge, the leadership team in charge of adding the 11 o'clock service in Pasadena, and the Pasadena campus leadership team approached me with the idea of building and maintaining their websites. I did not begin the official process of becoming part of Volunteer Staff, which required you to complete a four to six week "class" called Life in Christ until late February in 2007, followed by a one day class called "Life in Church" prior to the official ceremony of joining Volunteer Staff or "Commissioning" as they called it. Because of the level of my participation at Mosaic had grown so much so quickly, ironically I found myself with the task of redesigning the graphics and layout of the booklets used for both Life in Christ and Life in Church at the same time that I w as going through the process of taking both courses. Since the way you participated in such classes was by a process of individual mentoring, where an already official member of Volunteer and sometimes paid staff would meet with you and go through the material, there was no way to ensure that everyone who would complete such requirements had been thoroughly prepared in the same manner by such mentors. My mentor, while being a very nice guy, in my opinion was not very thorough and the process felt very hurried. He was part of paid staff and therefore overwhelmed with too many official responsibilities at Mosaic (which later I would find out to be the norm not the exception at Mosaic).

Because of all of these factors combined, it was easy for me to not see what I was actually getting myself into. In a way, I saw the whole process as the necessary ground work to validate my having the type of responsibilities I was already being given at Mosaic, so I didn't see a change on the type of things I was doing at Mosaic before becoming part of Volunteer staff as supposed to after completing the process. I was taken by surprise when as part of the official commissioning process, I was told that I was being commissioned as a missionary and the thought of being given such responsibility while never officially addressing my status as a homosexual, seemed odd. Then again, I don't recall finding out that I was actually a member of the Baptist Church until after becoming part of Volunteer staff, but as explained to me at the time: "Baptist" by technicality and in name only. By the way, my official commissioning into part of volunteer staff took place exactly a year later to the day of my first visit to Mosaic: April 11, 2007.

So you not only found Mosaic but you also made a decision to invite Jesus into your life. For clarity sake, did the prayer include the basic "ABC's to Christianity"?

A - Admit that you have sinned. That you have broken God’s rules. (Romans 3:23, Isaiah 53:6)B - Believe that God paid for your sin. (Romans 5:8, Romans 6:23) “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.8 0 (John 3:16)C - Commit your life to Jesus Christ. “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe his His name.” (John 1:12)

How would you sum up your decision?

To be honest, I don't remember the actual words used or bible references that they may have mentioned, but I can attest that they did pray for the group of guys that had stood up including myself. Because I was not a complete stranger to Christ, it felt more like a renewed commitment to invite Him back into my life and choosing to follow the path He had chosen for me and to never ever walk away from Him again. In fact, what you attribute to the basic "ABC's to Christianity, is new to me. I have never heard of it before and no one at Mosaic alluded to it afterwards.

I didn't mean to infer that everyone taught the "ABC's to Christianity" but rather that this is a simple way to present it. The verses given are often "used" to present a basic process in which we come to accept Jesus. I happen to use the ABC's because I was teaching a bible class at church last week and this is the format I used.

So from the very beginning Erwin knew about you being a homosexual not because you or anyone told him but because he simply knew. Did he or any other staff person discuss this issue with you?That is what he claimed to know. He wouldn't tell me so, until after I had come to Christ in Highlander (May 2006) Around July 2006, his foster daughter Patty and her husband Steve had a get together in their apartment in order to share their experience as missionaries and I attended. Erwin showed up unannounced and I approached him afterwards and shared that at the time I wasn't sure how now that I had accepted Christ in my life, the fact that I was a homosexual would be a problem. That is when he told me that he had known all along I was a homosexual from the moment I was introduced to him back in April. You have to understand that at the time I approached him at his daughter's apartment, I was still in my "infatuation phase" with him as the leader of Mosaic and that was why I felt it was so important to find out his opinion on the matter.

What transpired instead was the beginning of many subsequent episodes when I was faced with the reality that the Erwin on stage was a total different person than the Erwin one on one. He kept dancing around the issue and preferring that I contact Dave A., Mosaic's ex-gay "expert." I had been introduced to Dave A. at Highlander, and was put off by his "one dimensional" persona who believed that all homosexuals were perverted in nature. He supposedly was a temporary homosexual during his youth when he was involved in theatre, but later on, he claimed to have "left" the lifestyle and was now married with 4 daughters. I tried to explain to Erwin that I found Dave's opinion about homosexuality very narrow minded and that I wanted to know his opinion instead, but he kept skirting the issue saying he was no expert and that he thought Dave A. was better equipped to answer my questions.( I later found out that this was the official plan used by everyone in leadership at Mosaic: refer them to Dave A.). Erwin offered to say a prayer for me instead and made some reference to himself having been in some sort of a mental institution when young, but I didn't understood why he was making such reference then. I ended up leaving the event early, very angry and hurt, realizing that my "idol" had fallen from its pedestal. I ended up writing him an email where I expressed my frustration and disappointment at how he had "handled" my situation, but I never received a response from him.

When I shared the situation with other people at Mosaic, I was told that it was very selfish of me to have placed such expectations on Erwin, that people would approach him and email him all the time asking him for advice on their problems and that Erwin should not be expected to solve everyone's problems at Mosaic. That I needed to understand that not everything was about me and that instead I should concentrate on serving others because in doing so, I would not be tempted to act on my selfish behaviors. Later on, in August of 2007, when another person approached me with the idea of forming the first men's celebrate recovery group, I said yes to hosting it at my home, not knowing that Dave A. would be made the group leader. He and I ended up having a lot of disagreements, mostly because Dave had not been trained officially in how to run a celebrate recovery group, and kept insisting on running the group very differently.

Because of my background in my own recovery and recovery groups, I kept bringing up the discrepancies and eventually, Dave phased out of the group having another member of the group become the leader.Around November of 2007 or so, when I wrote my interpretation on the famous verses from the Bible used to condemn homosexuality and talked about them at great length in my blog, I made copies of it and gave it to some people I knew in Mosaic and asked to read it and get back to me with the idea to engage in dialogue. Two of the people that I gave copies of the material were pastor Rickey W. and the leader of Forge (Men's Ministry) Gary N. Neither of them followed up on reading the material.

One night, when I was at Gary's house over for dinner and Rickey W. was in attendance as well, I decided to bring up the subject. Both of them were very uncomfortable with the subject and finally Rickey W. suggested to call Dave A. and have him stop by Gary's house. I got angry at what I perceived as another passing of the buck situation and argued with them that Dave A. was the last person I wanted to have a conversation on the subject. I got up and proceeded to leave, but somehow Gary kept pleading with me to stay while unbeknownst to me, Rickey W. had stepped outside and called Dave A. Within twenty minutes, Dave A. showed up at the house and I was cornered. Figuring that I might as well attempt to make the best of the situation, I tried to offer my perspective, citing from the research I had completed and the information I had put together. Dave A. proceeded to cut me off and took reign of the conversation and proceeded to tell Gary, his wife and Rickey that I was under the influence of books that had brainwashed me and that he was very concerned that my countenance was down. He then proceeded to read from the Bible quoting the passage in Genesis when God confronts Cain asking him about the whereabouts of his brother Abel, and using the words: Why is your countenance down? in order to illustrate his point.

He told everyone present that he was very concerned for my emotional state and that I needed to be watched closely because I was in a fragile state where I was extremely vulnerable to the attacks of the devil. I was furious, but I kept quiet because I realized by then, that this was the tactic Mosaic would implement in the event that anyone would attempt to bring up the subject of homosexuality. That is when I decided that I wanted to write to the elders with the intention of them granting a meeting with me, but instead the farthest I could reach was for Eric B. to agree to deliver the letter to the elders himself. This was after I threaten to leave Mosaic and relinquish all of my responsibilities if they attempted to push Dave A. ever again on me.

What is your perspective on why they wouldn’t discuss the issue with you? How do you know Rickey and Gary didn’t read the research you had given them?

Both Rickey W. and Gary N. are very close friends and talk and see each other almost on a daily basis. In watching their interactions closely, I saw how Gary would take clues from Rickey on how to proceed or discuss a controversial subject. Initially, I had pursued an interest in getting to know Rickey thinking he could be a better alternative to listen to in service than Erwin, but I soon realized that as a pastor and leader, Rickey appeared to be plagued by insecurities feeling that he was not as great of a public speaker as Erwin as he often alluded in his talks.

I continued to associate with him primarily as an extension of my connection with Gary N. However, after seeing how Rickey chose to handle the situation at Gary's house with Dave A., I stopped trusting him completely. Rickey W. claimed to have read the information I gave him, but never volunteered to talk to me about it until I finally brought up the subject to his attention at Gary's house. Gary initially told me at the time of our fallout ( May 2008) that I had never given him any articles to read, but after responding to his allegation by reminding him of what had transpired at his home with Dave A. and Rickey, as well as pointing out that I had even given him a copy of the movie "For the Bible Tells Me So", he acknowledged not seeing it. I could only speculate at the reason why they would not discuss the issue with me, which I believed was the same for most people at Mosaic and others I had met throughout my life: that it was such an uncomfortable subject to bring out in conversation, and that most people would prefer to hide behind the famous verses used from the Bible even though most people when pressed on the subject would admit not having given it much thought other than believe what they have been told by others without studying it further. I on the other hand was saying all along that this was the main reason why I believed that an open dialogue had to be established among the community in order to strip away any misconceptions passed on from generations. As an educator, I firmly believe that knowledge will break out through any subject deemed too controversial to speak about.

You mentioned a celebrate group, did you mean celibate?

No, it is called "Celebrate Recovery" and it is a bible study based recovery program. It was originally created at Saddleback Church and later incorporated by Mosaic Inland prior to them becoming apart of Mosaic. When Mosaic absorbed Inland, Dave A. was assigned to lead the "transition" to Mosaic and since he was also in charge of small groups, he discussed the idea of bringing the program to the rest of Mosaic. At the same time, someone by the name of Joe S. had begun attending Mosaic and he was already attending a Celebrate Recovery group for two years prior to coming to Mosaic, so he approached me about forming a men's group and having it at my place downtown.

However, as I alluded earlier, Dave A. made the mistake of assuming that such program could be treated as just another small group, and as a result, there was a lot of turmoil between Dave A., Joe S. and myself in getting the group run efficiently until finally Dave agreed to phase out of it and have Joe S. in charge.

Ok, so are you saying that although you have strong convictions about the bible and homosexuality, you have chosen to remain celibate because you want to pray and ask for guidance. Is that right? Do you feel like maybe part of that guidance could have come from Mosaic, your church? Were you really interested in input or was this simply a time for you to ensure that they heard your justifications? Help me understand where you were(are) coming from.

I decided to become celibate for a number of reasons. Primarily , it was a conscious decision on my part after accepting Christ in my life during Highlander. At that time, I told God that I was going to make such vow while I listened and prayed for guidance from both Him and Mosaic with regard to whether I was indeed following the path that He had chosen for my life. Mosaic didn't ask me to make such vow, but people close to me in Mosaic as well as Eric B. knew about it. As I progressed in my relationship with God, I began to feel His reassurance of His unconditional love and the statement that He had created me the way I was and that everything He created was perfect in His eyes as is. The other main reason for it was in order to better address personal issues in my road to recovery. During the five years or so that I was involved in addictive damaging behavior, I felt that I broke all kinds of boundaries regarding intimacy. Once determined to become clean and sober, I asked God to "numb" that part of my life while I focused on His word and purpose He had in store for me. Prior to that phase of my life, I had always been interested in establishing a monogamous committed relationship. Even now, as I approach the two year mark in my sobriety and celibacy, and begin to entertain the idea of perhaps dating again, I realize that I'm not ready yet. There is still a lot of healing to take place in that area of my life that is quite broken, so I trust that God will let me know when its right to do so again.

So about a year and a half into your Mosaic experience was your first real discussion about this issue and that was only with the "help" of Dave A. It seems as if Eric was blocking access to the Elders, am I reading too much into that? Writing a letter isn't bad, so tell me about the response to your letter.

Well, my original intention was to request a meeting with the elders where I would have the opportunity to elaborate on the points I had included in my letter, but I was told by Eric B. that due to their schedule, it was not possible for me to meet with them in person. Instead, he told me that he would be happy to present the letter to them himself in their next meeting. It took about two months to get a response back after several emails to Eric B. asking whether the elders had been presented with my letter. Eric finally invited me to his house over for lunch and explained that the elders had reviewed the letter and that unfortunately, they did not agree with the idea of opening the topic of homosexuality as an open dialogue among the church community and that they considered homosexuality a "non-issue" at Mosaic. I remember feeling very disappointed by the news, but also confused with the direction that Eric seemed to take in commenting about my future with Mosaic. To explain it in a nutshell, he referred to the time when I would choose to leave Mosaic as a definite event, rather than a possibility. I was puzzled by the choice of words because at that point I was still hopeful that I could continue the dialogue on the topic and remain at Mosaic.

Since I had made a vow of celibacy when I gave my life to Christ (in order to allow for time of prayer and asking for guidance about my sexual orientation) and Eric knew about it, he kept referring to the time that I would choose to date someone and break my vow (which to this day remains intact) and consequently leaving Mosaic as a result.

So even though you were remaining celibate, Eric was foretelling the future as to your dating life, and therefore predicted that you would eventually have to leave the church. It appears as though Eric in this strange non-direct way was saying that dating the same sex is sin so therefore if you decided to date the same sex you would then be in sin. Considering your stance on this issue, it was inevitable that you would leave Mosaic. Do I have it right?

Yes, it appears to be so. At the time, I had first considered leaving Mosaic back in November of 2007, when Eric asked to meet with me to discuss my concerns, he pointed out that he didn't see a conflict with my beliefs and Mosaic's stance simply because I had chosen to take a vow of celibacy which prevented me from engaging in homosexual sinful behavior. As long as I would continue to abide by such vow, I would have no problems remaining in the positions I had chosen to be involved at Mosaic.

Ok, so although the elders stated that it was a "non-issue", Eric's response made it clear there was an issue by discussing your departure. It appears as though you exhausted all avenues in trying to get someone to discuss the issues with you. How did you feel at the time about what had happened? How do you feel now? What transpired after this conversation with Eric?

After my lunch meeting with Eric, I was extremely disappointed and began to feel depressed and for a couple of weeks, I wasn't sure about what to do next. It was obvious that this was a test of faith for me. I was torn because even though I had given up on the idea that I may get to persuade Erwin to see things differently, I thought Eric would be more supportive. Ironically, during this whole time, I didn't know that Eric was indeed one of the elders. Otherwise, I would have arrived at the conclusion that he too like Erwin, was deceitful in his actions.

I could sense in the tone of his voice (sounding very apologetic and nervous) that he was very uncomfortable in having been put in the position to deliver the news from the rest of the elders. After all, I had developed a friendship with his family (his wife and two kids), so I wasn't just another member of the church that he pastored. Afterwards, I didn't do anything for a month or so, but I began to feel disconnected from Mosaic. I felt trapped in a no win situation, afraid of what might happened to me if I dared to leave and find myself alone and with no support, but at the same time, I no longer felt that I could be myself around people in Mosaic. The Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy was eating me inside. This type of subliminal discrimination can do more damage than the more vocal and direct type, in my opinion. The idea of Mosaic as the ideal community began to crack as I began to see the hypocrisy in its leadership. After my disappointing lunch with Eric B., I felt there was no one else in leadership, I could trust and be honest with. The other men I have trusted before: Erwin, Rickey W., Gary N., and finally Eric, have managed to "pass the buck" and avoid the issue.

In addition, I was growing more and more frustrated with the lack of discipleship. I checked several bible studies offered through the men's ministry and even checked one that was supposedly aimed at newcomers, but the result was always the same: they never would take into account what it was like for someone who was new to faith and God, who had not grown in church, and who needed to learn the mere basics, before jumping in to interpreting bible passages. I would raise those questions, but felt that I was the only one who had that problem. I remember one night arguing with the leader of the Men's Ministry, Gary N. that the leadership was failing to connect with new believers and understand their need. Then I gave him the example: They shouldn't even assume that a newcomer knows how to pray, for at times I had felt intimidated when asked to pray at the end of a bible study group, not knowing what to say. He reacted by just stating: you just say what comes to your mind, and I simply chose to say no more, realizing once again that he was missing my point. I was tired of feeling like I was walking into the middle of a movie whenever scripture would be used, and be expected to know what had happened prior to it and know the background of the story.

Eventually, I ordered "Bible for Dummies", a book of over 500 pages and read the whole book beginning to end in three days, unable to put it down. I learned in those three days more about the bible than in two years at Mosaic. I went back to reading through the site at Mosaic of Pain from the beginning and this time I began to understand what so many people were saying, about how they had put their trust in a leadership that had tricked them and failed them, and made them feel guilty for it. Then, one night after saying my prayers, I went to bed and the thought came to my head that while I had come to Christ at Mosaic, His chosen path and destiny for me, may involve leaving Mosaic. I remember the passage in scripture about Jesus telling his disciples that it was better for them to dust off the dirt of their clothes and chose to leave whenever they would encounter a town that was not willing to listen to their message. I continued to pray for guidance, but my frustration became more and more apparent to those around me, eventually leading to be accused of just being an angry man. People didn't like the idea and my words questioning leadership and its intentions. The disconnection became clearer and I realized that I needed to go.

Considering Mosaic is a part of the Southern Baptist Convention, and a position statement by the SBC on Sexuality is "affirm God's plan for marriage and sexual intimacy—one man and one woman, for life. Homosexuality is not a valid alternative lifestyle,” why did you feel deceived?

Because Mosaic never made it clear to me or others their relation and ties to the Southern Baptist Church. They only emphasized their own core values in their commissioning process. It was after already becoming an official member of volunteer staff that I found out that we were associated with the Southern Baptist Faith and even then, it was explained to me that the association had to do more "in name only" for the purpose of whatever perks came from being called southern Baptist. I found this kind of reasoning very similar to "selective scripture passages" style when it came to using scripture passages for condemning homosexuality. If Mosaic would had included clearly in their literature concerning their core values the official Southern Baptist position on homosexuality, I would have never bother to join nor attend in the first place for that matter. This example puts Mosaic at the top of my list of malicious church practices to lie and take advantage of its members for the sole purpose of gaining numbers in attendance and in the money that they receive from its members.

Since you left, has anyone from the church tried to connect with you? Where do you see yourself going from here?

Only one person, Gary N., the leader of Forge (Mosaic's Men's Ministry) has been aggressively pursuing me via email and voicemail messages with the idea of getting together and try to patch things up. However, I must point out that we had a personal falling out at the same time I left Mosaic, so he is more interested in healing our friendship rather than necessarily intervening on behalf of Mosaic. For personal reasons dealing with the nature of our fall out, I had expressed my gratitude to him for hi s intentions, but have asserted that I need more time to heal alone before entertaining the idea of mending our friendship.

However, I won't deny that the invitation of getting together for coffee and discuss things from him, makes me suspicious of a hidden intervention by Mosaic leaders, because of past practices, so it makes me weary of meeting with anyone at Mosaic who is part of leadership staff at this point in n my life, even if the invitation is purely for social reasons. I simply do not trust their intentions. For those reasons, currently I find myself torn with how to handle my relationships with the friends I had made from Mosaic. Even if I want to trust their individual intentions, I can't ignore the possibility of a separate agenda planted by leadership at Mosaic with their intentions of associating with me.

At this point in my spiritual journey, I believe that I have found a community and church that accepts me for who I am. It is composed of a very diverse group of people: young and old, heterosexual and homosexual, single and married. In a way you can say this community that is All Saints Church in Pasadena represents a true mosaic of people, not the selective broken pieces that Mosaic the church of Erwin selects as worthy of their congregation. After all, All Saints Church and the Episcopalian faith in general provided the foundation and theory for the plans I had presented to the elders at Mosaic and the type of open dialogue that I wanted its community to partake in, but found it to be impossible. It is refreshing to be a part of a community where the term "inclusive" means exactly that, rather than instead listen to endless sermons on "maximizing your potential", and other "church lite" topics that even refer to the idea of inclusivity within the church, and then contradict themselves in practice.

While I have no problems giving Mosaic the credit for bringing me to Christ, I must also give them credit for contributing to my distrust of organized religion and its leaders when it comes to maintaining a separate agenda for their own advancement. As a result, I find myself being extremely cautious about every small step I proceed to take for fear of running into another wolf dressed in Erwin's clothes. One unexpected surprise that has come as the result of leaving Mosaic has been a sense of awakening, having my eyes opened to the Truth rather than a sense of despair and loneliness. The best way I could describe it, is like going through deprogramming and unplugging the cord that connected me to a cult of sorts. Being able to see Mosaic for what it really is, rather than through their prescribed glasses filled with Erwin's psychobabble rhetoric. I'm very grateful to have chosen to trust God through this difficult process, thinking that I was going to lose so much, yet by trusting Him, finding out that He has the best of intentions planned for my life and those plans go way beyond what Mosaic had offered me.

About 2 weeks ago you first posted your experiences on Mosaic of Pain. Do you feel comfortable discussing what has happened in regards to your writing?

Originally, I was taken a back by the reaction my comments generated, considering that I had never shied away from expressing my feelings towards Mosaic in my own blog. What were different this time were the lengths to which members of paid staff at Mosaic were willing to go in order to discredit me, by resorting to de-rail the focus of how my feelings had been handled by Mosaic by choosing to focus on my status as a homosexual. In addition, I began receiving anonymous posts to my blog warning me to watch my back and not to leave my dog out of my sight, to cite an example, and I began receiving anonymous phone calls in the middle of the night where the caller would hang up as soon as I would answer. While I will admit that all of it saddened me, in a way reinforced the belief that I was speaking damaging truth that they were willing to silence.

Truth doesn't appear to be important to Mosaic. Clarity even less important although service and silence ranks high on the list. Jose, you and I have had a couple of phone conversations and now several emails over the last week or so. I have told you from the very beginning that we would probably differ on many issues including your view of what the bible teaches in regards to homosexuality.

From the very beginning I was impressed with your desire to speak about the truth in regards to your experience but with a purpose to expose what you have encountered. Although I am concerned about your physical safety regarding the threats you received, I do appreciate you stepping forward to tell your story. In the end I think we can both agree that due to the fact that Mosaic (and its leadership) hides the truth about what it really is, the love it talks about is, in the end, only talk. I think most of this would have been avoided if they had been honest about who they are and where they stand on this and other issues. Any last thoughts?

I will most definitely agree that most of my negative experience with Mosaic would have been avoided if they had been transparent and authentic about whom they really were and what they stood for. Last week, I had dinner with the only friend met through Mosaic that so far I can trust and he asked me, what was my motivation behind continuing to write about Mosaic in my blog now that I had left them. The question is one that has been asked of many MOP members. I responded by stating that I felt it was my duty as a follower of Christ to bring attention to deceitful practices by Mosaic or any other church for that matter, because my silence otherwise would make me guilty by association to those left behind at Mosaic, especially those who are new to faith and the community and who stand to be hurt and taken advantage of by leadership. While I have managed to break free from their damaging testimony, I cannot forget that I leave behind many others who are still members of Mosaic and who are gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgender and who haven't been able to separate the homophobic messages imparted on them from what God truly has to say to them.

They see no conflict in using their talents in their worship services via dances, plays, etc or use their God given talents in other areas of ministry such as web design and photography, and at the same time deny their place at God's table.

Although as a "conservative" Protestant/Evangelical, I'm rather concerned that you jumped from the frying pan into the fire when you moved from Mosaic over to All Saints Pasadena.

Moving from an emergent church to a mainline denomination that's in great turmoil like the Episcopalians/Anglicans are is no improvement. Your rector Bacon, Reverend Susan Russell and archbishop Bruno are no better than McManus, and a strong case could be made that they are actually worse.

May I ask, Jose, in your attempted talks, did you want to have Mosaic accept your homosexuality, or did you want more to dialog about the "whys" of homosexuality being unacceptable in Christianity?

August 11, 2008 12:29 PM

Jose has made it pretty plain that he wanted to open up a dialogue with the leadership of Mosaic to discuss the issue of homosexuality because he felt he was receiving mixed messages on what Mosaic's official position was. He may have harbored a false hope that he could somehow convince the leadership of Mosaic that homosexuality was acceptable but that is beside the point, the real issue is that Mosaic never made it clear to him that he needed to change his BELIEFS concerning homosexuality in order to be fully accepted at Mosaic.

Remember, according to Jose, this is what Eric told him:

"At the time, I had first considered leaving Mosaic back in November of 2007, when Eric asked to meet with me to discuss my concerns, he pointed out that he didn't see a conflict with my beliefs and Mosaic's stance simply because I had chosen to take a vow of celibacy which prevented me from engaging in homosexual sinful behavior. As long as I would continue to abide by such vow, I would have no problems remaining in the positions I had chosen to be involved at Mosaic."

THIS IS THE CRUX OF THE PROBLEM.

A statement from the EXECUTIVE PASTOR of any church that he doesn't "see a conflict with (a homosexual man's) beliefs (regarding homosexuality) and (that particular church's) stance" would strongly imply that this church already accepts that man's homosexuality BUT . . .

Eric B. of Mosaic goes on to qualify this statement by adding that homosexuals must remain celibate (referring to the practice of homosexuality.)

Sorry Mosaic, you can't have it both ways. If Mosaic's official position regarding homosexuality is that it is wrong, then holding to a "belief" that is it acceptable would also be wrong.

Jose never tried to hide his sexual orientation and he never claimed to have given up his belief that homosexuality was an acceptable lifestyle. The fact that he made so many attempts just to talk about this subject demonstrates how desperately he wanted a chance to explain what is obviously a very strongly held belief on his part.

The leadership at Mosaic should have addressed his belief by countering it with their own belief. This is where Mosaic failed miserably.

Mosaic, you really need to get your act together and make it absolutely clear to your entire congregation what your real beliefs are. Stop hiding your true, "conservative" nature by handling "problem people" such as Jose on a private, case by case basis.

You also need to educate all your leaders on Mosaic's official position on homosexuality and stop "passing the buck" to one man.

Oh, and Erwin . . . it may lose you a lot of "popularity votes" but the next time you're approached by a member of the Gay and Lesbian community, please be "authentic" with them when they ask you for your opinion of their lifestyle.

Yvonne W.

P.S. to Jose:

Although we disagree on your lifestyle, my prayers go with you.I would be happy to read your paper and discuss your research with the mutual goal of better understanding each other's position on this difficult topic.God bless you.

>While I have no problems giving Mosaic the credit for bringing me to Christ, I must also give them credit for contributing to my distrust of organized religion and its leaders when it comes to maintaining a separate agenda for their own advancement.

Precisely the concern that this blog has.

So many pro-Mosaic'ers want to come on here and say, "Look at all of the fruit."

I say, Yes, look at ALL of the fruit from following Erwin McManus the man.

I know the leaders that were mentioned in Jose's interview. There not bad guys, but I think we can say that there should be more training, and that goes for the Dave. A., Eric b And Ricky's of the church. There is nothing wrong with educating one's self in some of these important issues that hit our church. And you know what there is nothing wrong with saying we made a mistake and we're going to correct it. This could be a growing time. Not a stiffening up the neck time. Matt

Jose sent this statement below via email in regards to the 2nd comment on this page.

--------------------------

My intended purpose was to create a dialogue with the community at Mosaic. If you look at the word "dialogue" in the dictionary, it refers to "a conversation between two or more people one directed toward exploration of a particular subject." In my own experience bringing up the subject of homosexuality with people both inside and out of Mosaic, I learned that a greater majority of Christians have never taken the time to research more about what the Bible says or doesn't say about homosexuality and have simply learned to recite the "famous seven passages" used to condemn homosexuality and simply chosen to take it as the official last word. In looking at your question, it is impossible to address just one without the other, because their individual answers after the other one. For the sake of argument, I believe that I needed to know the "whys" of homosexuality being unacceptable in Christianity in order to establish a point of reference before I could argue of them to "accept" my homosexuality.For those people truly interested in finding out how I arrived at my beliefs, I am happy to share my thoughts and extensive research with them. However, I don't believe this blog is the appropriate forum to do so because it takes away from the main purpose of such blog: to reveal and discuss the malicious and un-christian behavior by Mosaic leaders when it comes to address their members needs; it is not a forum on discussing homosexuality which is why I refrained from even talking about it in the first place until someone from Mosaic chose to bring it up for discussion, in an attempt to derail the real issue. Furthermore, I have shared with Cris that he can forward the names and email addresses of those who genuinely wish to learn more about my own stance and the whys, as long as they provide a name and email address. Attempting to establish dialogue with someone who chooses to hide its identity and wishes to remain anonymous is futile and will no longer do so.

------------

You can sent any questions with to crisraguilar@gmail.com Please include your name and email address.

Jose,I totally connect to your confusion of what Mosaic believes. I have been part of the community for about the same amount of time as you have (2 years). During this time I never heard any sermons against smoking weed. When I told some of the same guys in leadership that I thought I could be a Christian and smoke weed - they told me I could only be on volunteer staff if I chose to abstain from smoking weed. Just like you - I was told you could only remain on volunteer staff if you abstained from having romantic or sexual relations of the same sex. So I totally get where you are coming from. Yes, I guess we all still attend Mosaic worship and social gatherings, but it wouldn't be the same after I was so involved. Since I have left Mosaic to find a church that lets me smoke weed and worship Jesus - everything in my life is so much better. Mosaic needs to be inclusive and love and accept all. I am glad to find this support group here online that accepts us as we are. Mosaic needs to learn from you guys. I will remain anonymous, so my pets lives are not in danger.

"...During this time I never heard any sermons against smoking weed. When I told some of the same guys in leadership that I thought I could be a Christian and smoke weed - they told me I could only be on volunteer staff if I chose to abstain from smoking weed. Just like you..."

Well, sounds like your pastor needs to preach some then...cuz that is a major problem within todays youth (babes in your case).

By the way, nobody is saying that churches like Mosaic need to preach sermons against certain lifestyles. It just might be nice if they didn't act like it was not a big deal so long as they get the free labor from people, and use the "don't ask don't tell" approach to sweep it under the carpet.

it is quite obvious that the posting from weed smoker is attempting to make fun of Jose with his satire. just another different attempt at discrediting Jose's story. Sad, they are running out of ways to silence him, so this is what they have been reduced to having to do. Very sad.

from the pages of today's eric bryant's blog under "fistfights and lawsuits":"Making things right” is more important than “being right” (I Corinthians 6:7-8).

The best way to overcome conflict? Be ok with being wronged or cheated. Sounds crazy, but we have a more enjoyable life if we choose “to live at peace with everyone as far as it depends on us” (Rom. 12:18).

Hmm, if only he would practice what he preaches! but wait, he is a pastor a Mosaic, where pastors are exempt from abiding by their own sermons.

Why is Erwin calling himself a "filmmaker?" What films did he write, produce or direct? The Soul Craving short films were done by people who attend Mosaic but Erwin was not creatively involved in any of it. In fact, these films were all independent projects that were later compiled under the "Soul Craving" series sometime after. I don't understand how someone can label themselves a filmmaker and not know the slightest thing about making a movie. Erwin refers to Gladiator, Braveheart, and As Good as it Gets in a lot of his old sermons. Is he going to claim that he had a hand in the creative process for those films as well? I am shocked that people who really created the films (Scoggins, Ross) aren't in a uproar. For everyone still at Mosaic, you can't listen to the stuff that this guy says and not feel the slightest bit uncomfortable.

Jeremy makes an excellent point. It is one of the many examples of how Erwin likes to use the talent that he has at his disposal and then take credit for what is created himself. The "new" DVD that he has put together for sale as a supplement of his newest book, Wide Awake, is made up of old short films created by people who attend Mosaic and which have been used numerous times to advertise other countless of his books in the past. The man has no creativity. He relies on the same tired old formula of new age evangelism, mixed with some mysticism and punctuated by self help lingo. No wonder he can claim to write a whole book in 10 hours. Its the same tired old book repackaged over and over.

I have to agree with Jeremy. Perhaps that is part of the hurt experienced by Jose: he loves to use other people's talents and gifts to further advance the McManus agenda, and then throw away the actual person out of the church. No wonder, the majority of the homosexuals at Mosaic live in the closet. If Erwin were to one day wave a wand and cleanse his church of all homosexual sinners, there would be no one left to do the dancing, the acting and all the creative projects he so proudly likes to showcase on stage. What a hypocrite!

I'll tell you why Erwin can get a way with calling himself a "film maker" and claim credit for the short films created by other people at Mosaic. Because the actual film makers, and producers do not dare question their leader and his intentions. Instead, they will do whatever it would take to be part of his close inner circle. Ross(of Midnight Clear film) is married to Chad Lauterbach, the guy that did the photography in his Soul Cravings book, and Erwin subcontracts his services as a network technician. Others, such as Kevin Willson, who often has the credit for director or assistant to the director in most of Mosaic's films is one of Jimmy Duke's buddies, and Duke himself, well it is common knowledge that he kisses the ground that Erwin walks on...Oh, and Jimmy Duke's wife, Samantha? She is in charge of the reproduction and distribution at Awaken Films under the umbrella of Awaken.Now you see why? it's all part of a tightly woven and managed web of control.

Wow, the new revelations of what is taking place at mosaic leaves me very worried. We must all pray for the community at Mosaic to break away from the spell of his leader, McManus. Otherwise, we may see another collective drinking of the kool-aid, and we all know what happened the last time a leader managed to assume so much control of his congregation...

You people in here should be ashamed of yourselves and need to get a life. Erwin is a good man and I would gladly lay my life down for him. Erwin, if you are reading this, do not listen to them. They are all just jealous of you.

"...During this time I never heard any sermons against smoking weed. When I told some of the same guys in leadership that I thought I could be a Christian and smoke weed - they told me I could only be on volunteer staff if I chose to abstain from smoking weed. Just like you..."

So how is this loving, guys? I know most of you at Mosaic would never resort to mocking someone who has been displaced from his fellowship. But for that person who posted this, your pretty cold and gutless.

Who cares if Jose left mosaic? He won't be missed. Every Sunday we get hundreds of new talent at mosaic willing to serve others with open hearts. I wish more people part of leadership staff would have the guts to tell the truth and admit they are happy that Jose finally left. I'm glad he took off and joined the rest of his kind.

It is very sad to read Jose's story in here. I knew him pretty well from Mosaic and I know that he struggled with being accepted. I listened to his concerns on a few occasions, but I wished I could had done more. I love mosaic, but I am torn with how he was treated. I hope he finds a church that can appreciate the wonderful individual that he is.

Finally someone has the guts to tell it like it is. I'm also glad that Jose left. I knew who he was, but never cared about the guy. He wore his agenda on his shoulder, he actually tried to get the people in charge of Highlander to make the event "more inclusive." Dude, leave Highlander alone, its not a place for sissies after all.

As tempting as it, would you please not resort to sarcasm when responding to another person's post? Sometimes it's very confusing to tell the difference between a genuinely lame excuse for an argument and one that was meant to be sarcastic.

Please leave the sarcasm to the people who can't find the words to express themselves in an intelligent manner.

-- It is very sad to read Jose's story in here. I knew him pretty well from Mosaic and I know that he struggled with being accepted. I listened to his concerns on a few occasions, but I wished I could had done more. I love mosaic, but I am torn with how he was treated. I hope he finds a church that can appreciate the wonderful individual that he is. --

We know that the majority of brothers and sisters at Mosaic are loving and Christ like; similar to this post. It is our prayer that Mosaic finds its way to being more loving like this.

Hey everyone, not sure if anyone caught this already, but Phil Johnson of Grace Community Church wrote a provocative blog article on Erwin McManus yesterday I think. His website gets alot of traffic, so some of you might want to jump on the comment section.

Here's the link:http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2008/08/stream-of-consciousness.html

Right now I'm struggling through an incredibly L O N G and often-times "fiery" batch of comments that were posted to an item written by Nathan Neihbour of CRN.Info and Analysis.

Nathan wrote a piece called the:

the sexuality obsession

Posted by Nathan on Feb 19th, 2008

The original subject matter was his call for opinions regarding Americans for Truth about Homosexuality.

Before I continue, I want to make it clear that I DO NOT endorse AFTAH!!!!!

In light of what happened to Jose Arroyo, I find it interesting that Nathan Neighbour of Mosaic would be so upset about the open hostility that some people have towards gays and lesbians while "conveniently" overlooking the anti-gay sentiments of his own church, Mosaic.

I found this comment by Nathan to be particulary "interesting":

Comment #179

Nathan Says:February 22nd, 2008 at 9:26 pm From my time traveling with various ministries, and my work with the leaders at Mosaic, I have seen that most people who target a specific sin all the time are usually dealing with it in their own life. i know it sounds weird, but it is almost a coping mechanism. Erwin has said that you can almost guarantee a person is personally struggling with an issue if it is their personal rant.

I have seen that most people who target a specific sin all the time are usually dealing with it in their own life.

Nathan, nice. very nice. I getcha. If you bring attention to sin, you must be dealing with it. Good one. Good way to curb criticism. And my apologies to Yvonne. Sometimes its difficult to keep the sarcasam to myself when I read gems like these.

Am I the only one who sees the scary correlations between McManus and the false prophets that the scriptures warn us about? or the Anti-C.....I'm picking up my bible and re-reading Revelations, after this.

Does anyone know Mosaic’s views on homosexuality? With its Baptist background, I assume they are anti-GLBT (”hate the sin, but love the sinner,” blah blah blah) but I hope I’m wrong because I really enjoy the worship experience there.# alanApr 3rd, 2008 at 11:28 am

You can listen to a whole message where Erwin talks about homosexuality and other issues. Just go to our podcast page (mosaic.org/podcast) and look down the right hand side of the page. You’ll see the talk:

September 24, 2006 -[Life’s Toughest Questions] What About Sex? by Erwin McManus# Leyna

Yvonne,The blog you referred to was quite disturbing. I didn't buy it for one moment that Eric intended to title a chapter in his book - "Why homophobia is so Gay." Of course his publishers would never go for a chapter with such an insensitive title. His title became "Lots of Sex in the City: Engaging others in a Post Sexual Revolution World." Now that sounds like a title that would come out of Mosaic, very Postmodern.

Interestingly a commenter shared this with Eric; ...I think Christians should try to move beyond using these kind of terms in this way, and was surprised to see it here..."

This was Eric's response. "...I would have never gone forward with this chapter title without the input of my friends who are homosexual. Each one (so far) has loved that title. That doesn’t mean it would have been ok to use in the book, but for a quick post, I thought it would be ok.If I offended anyone, oops and sorry!"

If he offended anyone, "oops and sorry." This is the executive pastor of Mosaic. I think the questions regarding his maturity carries some weight. I would like to hear from all those friends of Eric who are gay. How do they feel about this? Because it upsets me. But then again he is sorry and oops. Matt 5

I checked out the links that "Truth Unites... and Divides" referred to and I believe I understand the point this person is trying to make -

It appears that the same complaint we have been lodging against Mosaic and Erwin McManus (that leadership says they believe one thing but look the other way when it comes to actually enforcing that belief) has been lodged against All Saints Episcopal Church in Pasadena.

According to this story "Liar, Liar, Pants on Fire" at Stand Firm in Faith.com

http://www.standfirminfaith.com/index.php/site/article/13475

So, let's recap. The Bishop of Los Angeles does not permit the performing of same sex marriages or blessings in his diocese with his permission, [pause here for BIG WINK] however, he also states that his clergy have permission to act without his permission.

That kind of wishy-washy stance sounds pretty familiar.

Sorry Jose, but if this kind of waffling at All Saints is true then I think TUandD may have a point.

Now, can we all get back on topic and put this issue to bed? This site is about Mosaic. Thanks.

We can involve and include people in our lives and in our churches - even those with whom we may disagree. (Anyone can be a part of our community at Mosaic - no matter who they are or what they believe. To become a part of our volunteer staff requires going through a mentoring process).

[Sarcasm Alert!]

Again, there's that wonderful clarity we've all come to know and love about Mosaic!

Mosaic doesn't care "who you are" or "what you believe" until you decide to become a part of "volunteer staff" and then . . . what? That's when they start "caring?"

Regarding same-sex marriage, Eric offers up this advice:

Those opposed to same sex marriage should share reasons for a ban based on a broad rationale rather than simply spiritual reasons.

Uh, how exactly are people supposed to be able to "share reasons for a ban based on broad rationale" when their leadership doesn't even want to discuss the simple "spiritual reasons?"

Come on Mosaic! The very least you could have done for Jose would have been to discuss the biblical reasons for your position on homosexuality yet your leadership couldn't even do that without turning it into an emotional fiasco! Isn't there anybody in leadership who can discuss the topic in a calm, CONFIDENT and mature manner? It's not realistic to think you can "convince" everyone that your position is the right one but at least people would know what your position is.

We cannot influence others we have pushed away.

Such as Jose?

Christians are known for who we hate rather than how we love. This moves us out of the conversation and polarizes those involved so quickly no progress can be made.

Doesn't having a "conversation" involve "talking?" I mean, between at least two people and not just one?

I just came across this advertisement for a conference that was called"Out of the Valley" and the promo goes on to say this about Erwin McManus:

Erwin McManus is the lead pastor of Mosaic, a highly artistic community of believers who love God creatively, expressively and authentically. A highly intelligent thinker, Erwin balances an apologetics style approach to ministry with a raw, primal awareness that life is to be lived and felt fully. He brings intellection into pragmatism, and creativity out of criticism.

http://www.outofthevalley.com/ootvconference.htm

"Apologetic styles approach to ministry?!!"

Who would describe his ministry in those terms?

Oh wait, this conference was held in AUSTRALIA!!!

I guess Erwin reserves his "apologetic styles approach" for people in other countries.

Those of you who are curious as to how someone can boast so much and take on so many titles might take an interest in reading the play “Tartuffe” by Moliere. And I quote from the play: "whosoever embraces the innocence of a holy life should not boast so much about his name and lineage; and the humble ways of worship do not agree with the outburst of ambition." This quote may have had an origin from an even greater book, Proverbs: “let another praise you, and not your own mouth.”

McManus reminds me more of Tony Robbins, the motivational speaker who has earned millions pushing his New Age motivational lectures, than Jesus Christ.

At the end there shall be rampant falling away from the true teachings of Christ and the true Word of God (the Bible).....McManus is just another huckster at the end here. I pity this man who has put his hand on the plow and then looked back.

I went to the Fuller Seminary bookstore this week and the section for books on "SALE" is full of McManus's books like "Soul Cravings" etc. He keeps repeating himself in his books. It seems like even the Fuller Seminary students do not want to read his mediocre stuff any longer.

Erwin strangely has taken NO position at all on the California Proposition #8 (Protect Traditional Marriage) which will be voted on in November 2008 by California voters.

This Proposition #8 will amend the California Constitution to define marriage to be between "a man and a woman".

I suspect Erwin with his entertainment industry connections and his New Age teachings, does not really care about protecting Biblical marriage (traditional marriage). Erwin like Rick Warren talks out of both sides of his mouth. I suspect Erwin secretly supports lesbian marriage, homosexual marriage, and same sex marriage like the apostates at "All Saints Church" in Pasadena.

I don't see Erwin's name or Mosaic's name on the "Yes on Proposition 8" website as a supporter of the Proposition at www.protectmarriage.comYou can not call yourself a leader without leading Erwin. The young members of Mosaic will vote against Proposition 8 or just remain neutral because they do not know the Bible very well.

The first miracle of Christ was at the wedding at Cana where Christ turned water into wine. Christ supported Biblical and traditional marriage between a man and a woman.Erwin never talks about Christ's miracles though.....he spends most of his time talking about maximizing the miracle of our human potential instead.

Making the World Human Again: Jesus' Quest to Save the Future from Religion

Alex McManus is the founder of the International Mentoring Network and the creator of Voxtropolis, a grassroots movement of music, art, film, and conversation, with expressions in California, Florida, and the UK as well as a mirror expression in the cybersphere at Voxtropolis.com. Alex served on the Leadership team of MOSAIC Los Angeles from 1998 through 2004. He was a key leader behind ORIGINS, the Mosaic Leadership Experience, and helped grow the conference from a small pilot event to an experience of international reknown and status. During this same time, Alex helped envision the Mosaic Alliance and served as the Global Liason until 2006.

That's funny, didn't the elders ask Alex to leave Mosaic because of his extreme viewpoints?

At Mosaic we have no members - only missionaries. There is nothing to join except a community on mission. We have little patience for self-indulgent spirituality that insists on everything being about us.

And there are implications. We have a zero tolerance policy for religious jargon or “Christianese.” We have little room for traditions that mean something to us but nothing to a person searching for God. We will not forsake the word of God for the traditions of men. We are committed to removing every non-essential barrier between God and humanity. We refuse to allow the gospel to become lost in our nostalgia or to appear irrelevant because we are.

And I must confess we are less concerned about whether mainstream Christians get us than about whether those searching for God get Him.

And if this makes us the bane of the church, then so be it. Paul said he would be accursed if only Israel would be saved. If he was willing to take on hell for eternity, we can take a little heat from the watch-dogs of Christian orthodoxy.

nd I must confess we are less concerned about whether mainstream Christians get us than about whether those searching for God get Him.

And if this makes us the bane of the church, then so be it. Paul said he would be accursed if only Israel would be saved. If he was willing to take on hell for eternity, we can take a little heat from the watch-dogs of Christian orthodoxy.

When was Mosaic given all the insight? Very frightening. This is straight from the Jim Jones playbook. They don't care what the world says. Because they know what's right. I think its time to encourage people who are attending Mosaic to not walk to your nearest exit, but run.

McManus markets himself as a radical, as something new, as a rebel who will overturn Christianity...destroy Christianity and re-make it.

However, to blunt and sincere, McManus is just another slick marketeer, an advertising man who tries to re-package as Gospel Lite like Miller Lite beer, as something new. The taste without the calories. Here in this case, the style without the true Substance of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Tragically, if this is what it takes to attract the youth and the post-college crowd of the 21st century then the Church is in for some tough spiritual times.

In the 2000 years, since the Resurrection of Christ, the world has seen thousands...hundreds of thousands of leaders and pastors like McManus who try to attack the institutional Church and say it does not work and they must completely destroy it and re-create it.

McManus does not seem to get it that Christ created a world-wide Church that would reach every ethnic group, every racial group, every economic class, every nation. McManus seeks to re-create the Church for a narrow sliver of humanity and say this is the best way for the world-wide Church ?? A sliver of materialistic, worldly of American youth / young American college grads....McManus says do it the Mosaic franchise way or take the highway....

Jesus says follow me and follow my teachings and be a suffering servant, have the faith of a child or you will not enter the Kingdom of God.....

God Bless MOP! I felt so alone before I found you.Thank you all for being here expressing my hearts groans. I thought I was the only one that has been so utterly devastated by "the Church." I plan on being here through my journey of deprogramming. I also plan on helping other truth seekers with my testimony when I am ready to give it. My wounds are fresh and my pain is raw and I need to take time to let the Spirit guide my heart and mind before I say anything further. But for now, I just want to give you the biggest thank you in the world for being such a courageous community of believers.

What about Rick Warren & Saddleback Church? We all know how Erwin & him are good buddies, endorsing each other books and such. There are many of us out there that have very similar stories from Saddleback as you brothers & sisters in Christ have from Mosaic. It is scary to think how similar the abuse of power is so similar with both of these megachurch star pastors. This all hit home to me seeing Warren getting in the middle of politics this weekend. Mcmanus seems to grab the spotlight as much if not more as Warren does. I wish all these movie star pastors would choke on their ego!

Mosaic is a big disappointment to me in terms of diversity that is ethnic diversity and racial diversity.

About 2/3 of Mosaic is either Latino-American, Asian-American, Pacific Island, African-American, or other minority group, but the leadership of Mosaic in terms of pastors remains lily white except for McManus. McManus is Latino but I heard he changed his name to a Europeon name to fit in more with other pastors and the entertainment industry.

The pastors of Mosaic remain white like Chad Becker, Eric Bryant, Steve Saccone, Ricky Williams, etc. Some of these guys are not even pastors as they never completed seminary. There are no women or minorities at Mosaic at the pastoral level.

This is supposed to be an emergent church but everything remains the same at the pastoral: white and male. I am bailing out because this church has refused to change and integrate its pastors over the past 3 years.

I am really disappointed with some of the new paid staff at Mosaic. I am informed that Mosaic spends about $2 million dollars a year on its paid staff's benefits and salaries. You think they could get better quality people with solid Christian beliefs.

Here is a quote about Nathan Neighbour from a Christian website inquiring into his writings about the gross violence ?? perpetuated by Christians ??************

"....Nathan Neighbour is on the “Creative Arts Team” at Erwin McManus’s Mosaic Church. Just how creative he can be, including with the truth, should surprise us all. I recently posted on a Muslim evangelist who wants to portray Allah as a God of love instead of beheadings and suicide bombers. The fact that 1300 years of history contradicts him, including the recent beheadings and dismemberments of Turkish Christians printing Bibles, does not come out in the London Telegraph article.

Enter the CRN.info attack site and Nathan Neighbour, contributor. Here’s how he views Christianity. He says we all live in glass houses and shouldn’t talk as Christians because we’re just as violent. He claims that “hundreds” of abortion clinics have been bombed, then there’s Fred Phelps and yes, the Crusades, and, say it with me, the Salem witch trials to prove his point.

I’m not sure what they’re teaching at Mosaic, but Erwin McManus must have a pretty dim view of fellow Christians if this is what he’s teaching......"

When McManus hires idiotic and truly ignorant people like this Nathan Neighbour who use falsehoods and false propaganda to allege that Christianity is a violent religion, McManus can then justify his stupid statement that he as the High Prophet of Mosaic wants to destroy Christianity and re-create in the image of Mosaic ??

Hey guys,I am reading all these statement going back and forth on your website and it is sort of depressing me.You know the Christian Church in America is already kinda weak.That Proposition 8 in California that people will vote in November for traditional marriage , probably won't pass.

That same traditional Marriage Proposition , I think it was Proposition 22, got 61 percent of the vote, I think, in the year 2000.

It is now 8 years later in 2008 and I think that pro-traditional marriage proposition will be lucky to get 51 percent of the vote now.

The Church is just getting weaker all the time you know. It is pointless for you pro-mosaic people and you MOP people to keep fighting over crumbs and scraps.

The church is so divided and weak that you guys are pretty much fighting over almost nothing nowadays. You guys should just chill out and put away your pistols and rifles and stop fighting and chill out . The only way the Church will survive in California is for Christians to unite as believers are so badly outnumbered it is scary nowadays.

To the Anonymous statements on Nathan Neighbour and Christianity as a violent religion, I have to say that I don't agree with everything that Nathan has to say in general, but in this case, he is making the point that Christianity can be blamed for all of the violent acts in the past that he had listed. Christianity has been used to justify many acts of violence in the past, just like it was used to justify the inferiority of women and slavery. While is not something to be proud, you can't on the other hand ignored that is true. Hit the history books.

To the Anonymous posting telling everyone here that we are arguing over almost nothing, I say you are way out of line. I would rather voice my disagreements with other "Christians" on lack of accountability issues anytime over ignoring those facts and "join" together to fight your cause.

Christianity has been used to justify many acts of violence in the past, just like it was used to justify the inferiority of women and slavery. While is not something to be proud, you can't on the other hand ignored that is true. Hit the history books.

awwww...why why...I believe it was the Christians who were the abolitionist. And again it was the Christians who were in the forefront of the Civil Rights movement. And the woman's movement had Christians on both sides of the issue. Why do we continue to paint Christians as the "bad guys". Yes, evil has been done in the name of Christ, Mohammed, etc. We don't throw Christians out with the bath water because of some crazies. This is the result of listening to people like Erwin too long. Nathan is just one sad example.

Let's make this a little more real. In the book of Revelation you get the feeling that its going to be real cool to put down Christians and who they follow during the end times. Are we there?Frustrated beyond Belief

Just read Ingrid Schluter's piece on Nathan Neighbour's silly statements. I don't know if Nathan will ever get it. It appears he's far off the deep end. You know something is wrong when someone like Nathan, Eric and a Dave Auda are high ranking leaders at Mosaic. I think we seriously need to pray for our brethen at Mosaic who are being led astray.

Are you telling me that Christians did not participate in the Crusades, the Klu Klux Kan, supported slavery and used their bibles to back their points, etc?You accuse people throwing Christians out with the bathwater, but the fact remains that those movements were widely supported by Christians and their bibles. Accept it.

Are you telling me that Christians did not participate in the Crusades, the Klu Klux Kan, supported slavery and used their bibles to back their points, etc?You accuse people throwing Christians out with the bathwater, but the fact remains that those movements were widely supported by Christians and their bibles. Accept it.

Lord Lord they not knoweth what they sayeth. Ok let's try this again. Yes, there are Christians who did bad stuff. And there are Christians that have done great stuff. I'm a little offended that you would even suggest that a vast # of Christians supported slavery. You may need to study the abolitionist movement and learn about these great Christian leaders who fought slavery in the U.S and GB and their great sacrifices. The KKK is and was not about Christianity, its about a group of hateful (mostly) men who are blinded by their racism. Now I don't know what Christians you hang out with, but my brothers and sisters are not from this hateful group. My friends aren't perfect. But please stop generalizing. Here's the error: The Jews put Jesus to death, so Jews are terrible and hateful. Ludicrous isn't it. It doesn't help Christianity to keep knocking them. Still frustrated

You say: "Yes, there are Christians who did bad stuff. And there are Christians that have done great stuff" I totally agree with your statement, Ms. Frustrated. And part of that statement acknowledges that there were Christians involved in all of those hateful things, some of them were leaders in it. So, wake up and take off your blinders. I also find how conveniently you avoid mentioning the Crusades and the atrocities caused in the name of the Lord. All I'm trying to say, is that while there are a lot of things Christians have done, we HAVE to acknowledge the atrocious things we have done as well. Choosing to "forget" or conveniently overlook over it, doesn't automatically make it disappear and pretend it never happened.

All I'm trying to say, is that while there are a lot of things Christians have done, we HAVE to acknowledge the atrocious things we have done as well. Choosing to "forget" or conveniently overlook over it, doesn't automatically make it disappear and pretend it never happened.

This is the frustrating part friend. There are too many people like yourself out there who criticize Christianity (McManus and crew) and are the first to look at epochs of time in history and say "well Christians have done atrocities", yes, however, their atrocities are minimal when you look at all the good Christians have done throughout the ages. The gospel has gone throughout the world and has brought medicine, technology and the word to millions. The world has been changed by these "little Christ". So yes I'm frustrated with those who dismiss Christianity and Christians by a small percentage of knuckleheads. In Roman times we learn how Christians were fed to lions. And we know what's in store for us tomorrow. I don't think anyone would argue with you regarding the "bad". Why not focus on the overwhelming good. Can't you see. Don't you see how your type of thinking is just prophecy being fulfilled. Well maybe that's good. Peace

"I am informed that Mosaic spends about $2 million dollars a year on its paid staff's benefits and salaries."

Correction, Mosaic spends just over $2m per year on all of their operating expenses (which also include staff salaries & benefits).

Secondly, both Christianity and Islam have had crazies go out and do very bad things in their name. We all agree that those people are not true followers of either religion. However, the Koran does advocate some fairly extreme measures to deal with the infidel. The Old Testament was quite extreme as well, but as Christians we live as freed New Testament followers.

"And I must confess we are less concerned about whether mainstream Christians get us than about whether those searching for God get Him.

And if this makes us the bane of the church, then so be it. Paul said he would be accursed if only Israel would be saved. If he was willing to take on hell for eternity, we can take a little heat from the watch-dogs of Christian orthodoxy."

Here is where McManus has gone completely WRONG in his thinking.

Erwin wants to site Paul when he states, "He would be accursed if only Israel would be saved."

Israel was the "orthodoxy" of the day! It was the church that Paul came from. Paul was being loyal to his spiritual heritage to a fault.

If Paul would have said, "I would be accursed if only the Gentiles would be saved." then McManus would have a good argument here. But that isn't what Paul said. He said exactly the opposite.

The bottom line position that MOP takes is that Mosaic, under McManus' leadership, does not care about it's members. It only cares about increasing it's numbers.

This is NOT Christianity. Rather, expansionism in it's rawest form. The balance every church should strive for is to worship God, love one another, and tell the rest of the world of His goodness.

If Erwin McManus wanted to have a church that emphasized growth over all the above, that's fine. Our issue is that he killed a church (The Church on Brady) that was worshiping God, loving one another and telling the lost of God's goodness. McManus should have went and started his own church and he would have never had this problem, nor would we.

I am startled to see people so surprised that a pastor would view homosexuality as wrong.

Erwin's/the Church's view may have nothing to do with denominational ties or being conservative. Most church's hold this view because of their view of Scripture.

People do have to be dealt with on a case to case basis... you don't just lump all people together. Some are serious about their walk, repentance and recovery. Others are not.

Church on Brady was an SBC church. And Erwin didn't name it "church on Brady" (I don't see SBC in that). Sometimes chruch's do not emphasize their denomination not because they want to hide anything, but because it simply isn't the most important aspect of the church. that a church is a "cooperating member" of the Southern Baptist Convention does not mean that it affirms all of their statements. Baptist church's do not have a "creed" other than the Bible.

"I am startled to see people so surprised that a pastor would view homosexuality as wrong."

David,

That isn't the issue here. The point is that the Pastor did not have a problem with the homosexuality, so long as the homosexual would build Mosaic web sites, and keep quiet about his struggle. When the individual in question started asking questions, in an attempt to understand better why homosexuality is wrong, that individual was dismissed and treated without respect.

Saying homosexuality is wrong is rather easy. Attempting to explain the "whys" and "hows" require genuine ministry and love.

Let me begin by saying that many of the posters here at MoP were former leaders at the Church on Brady and/or Mosaic. I once held several different leadership positions at CoB/Mosaic and my father was a pastor/elder there for more than 28 years.

You wrote:

I am startled to see people so surprised that a pastor would view homosexuality as wrong.

I'm not sure how you got the impression that anyone here is "surprised that a pastor would view homosexuality as wrong." To the contrary, the complaint being raised against Mosaic and it's "cultural architect" (keep in mind that Erwin McManus has expressed a great deal of disdain for the title "pastor") is that there is far too much ambiquity about exactly what their "view" of homosexuality is in the first place.

You write:

Erwin's/the Church's view may have nothing to do with denominational ties or being conservative. Most church's hold this view because of their view of Scripture.

David, if the above is true, then why does the official Mosaic website, http://mosaic.org/, refer visitors to the Baptist Faith and Message?

http://www.sbc.net/bfm/bfm2000.asp

This refutes your contention that Mosaic's view has nothing to do with denominational ties. It is also a widely held opiinion that any church that takes a stance against homosexuality is considered to be "conservative"; but this is beside the point. The real issue is that Mosaic believes homosexuality is wrong BUT . . .

. . . Mosaic doesn't seem to have any problem "commissioning" homosexuals as "missionaries" and "volunteer staff" BEFOFE TELLING THEM that they will now be expected to change their lifestyle!

I find it morally reprehensible for a church to take advantage of ANYONE'S volunteer labor FOR TWO YEARS when the church knows that individual will never be fully accepted as a part of it's community. Jose didn't hide his homosexuality from Mosaic; Mosaic hid it's anti-homosexual stance from Jose.

You also wrote:

People do have to be dealt with on a case to case basis... you don't just lump all people together. Some are serious about their walk, repentance and recovery. Others are not.

I agree with you that PEOPLE often need to be dealt with on "a case by case basis." You're correct when you write that we shouldn't lump everyone together because people do differ in their level of commitment, understanding of repentance and state of recovery but this is what individual counseling is for; however, expressing a church's OFFICIAL POSITION on issues such as homosexuality, adultery, pre-marital sex, pornography, incest, abuse, etc. SHOULD NOT be handled on a "case by case" basis. Mosaic seems to take"a need to know" approach to handling sensitive issues and I question the motivation behind such an approach.

Your last paragraph was:

Church on Brady was an SBC church. And Erwin didn't name it "church on Brady" (I don't see SBC in that). Sometimes chruch's do not emphasize their denomination not because they want to hide anything, but because it simply isn't the most important aspect of the church. that a church is a "cooperating member" of the Southern Baptist Convention does not mean that it affirms all of their statements. Baptist church's do not have a "creed" other than the Bible.

The sign outside the original building for the Church on Brady in East Los Angeles included the initials "SBC." Everyone who attended the Church on Brady knew it was a Southern Baptist Church.

No one here has said that Erwin had anything to do with the name "Church on Brady" so please don't try to put words in our mouths.

David, your attempt to defend Mosaic by stating that Mosaic does not necessarily "affirm" all of the SBC's "statements" again falls flat in light of the FACT the MOSAIC links back to the Baptist Faith and Message.

Why would they do this if they didn't "affirm" those statements? That doesn't make any sense.

If Mosaic doesn't believe in the the Baptist Faith and Message THEN IT SHOULDN"T CITE IT.

Your comments are rather insidious David. You seek to imply that Mosaic is a fallen church and an Apostate Church , just because Mosaic does not follow the Southern Baptist Convention ("SBC") policies stating that same sex relationships are sinful and the same sex marriages are banned by the Bible.

You appear to be a stooge of the MOP organization and an anti-Mosaic disciple of MOP.

I think that I speak for all members of Mosaic and the Mosaic Alliance when I say that Mosaic is a place of love. We accept people as they are whether they are lesbians, homosexuals, Buddhists, Muslims, atheists, Scientologists, Communists, anarchists, agnostics, etc.

Mosaic meets people where they are and Mosaic does not condemn them. Mosaic is progressive and loving.The stooges and lackeys at MOP seek to attack Mosaic because we are open and loving.

David if you confess your sins of pride and condemnation against Mosaic, then God and Mosaic will forgive you. Seek God while He may be found my brother. Turn away from the evil disciples at MOP.

“Seek the LORD while he may be found; call on him while he is near. Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts. Let him turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.” —Isaiah 55:6-7

I can only speak for myself yet I feel Cris and many other supporters of MoP will agree with me that the personal attack launched against you by the anonymous poster of August 21, 2008 4:29 PM was vile, illogical and completely inappropriate. I apologize for any offense this caused you.

To clarify: SBC Chruch's are aytonomous (sp). There is no authority beyond the local church. So a church is expected to hold Scripture above the denomination. Assuming a church holds a view on homosexulaity because it is SBC really misses the point. It holds that view because of the Bible.

Honestly, I'm not seeking to throw mud at Mosaic or anyone else. I just wanted to clarify two points:

1. That church's hold positions on moral issues because of Scripture, not demonination.

2. The church's name was changed before Erwin came on the scene. It was originally named: "First Southern Baptist Church of East Los Angeles." It was changed to: "Church on Brady." With the logo SBC. But the move away from "Southern Baptist Church" in the name did not happen under Erwin's watch.

To anonymous:

Your words would carry weight if you would put your name behind them. I would encourage all to have the courage to put a name to what you say. It will guard your words and give validity to your statements. It's easy to say too much when hiding behind a wall. I sincerely beleive it would be beneficial to your discussion.

Obviously anonymous missed everything I said. So to clarify: There was no condemnation because Mosaic does or does not follow an SBC policy. Church's in the SBC are not bound to convention decisions. The church's run the convention. So a church can hold a very different view on a matter, and still be a cooperating church. Again, Baptist have no "creed" but the Bible.

I never said Mosaic was a "fallen church." That's for Christ to judge, not me. As for your concerns about my pride, I thank you and will seek greater humility.

It seems I have not communicated my points well enough so I'll try again.

The Church on Brady decided to change it's name not because it was "moving away from the SBC" (it was always a solid SBC church); the decision for the name change happened because:

1. The church was located on Brady Avenue in East Los Angeles.

2. "The Church on Brady" became a well known nickname for the church so the congregation simply decided to make it "official."

You'd be surprised how many "First Church of (fill in the blank)" there are in the neighborhoods of East Los Angeles and its environs. It's common for people living here to refer to places by their street locations rather than their "official" names.

Since it has nothing to do with Erwin McManus anyway, may we please get past the non-issue of the name change?

As to basing a church's beliefs on scripture, while Bro. Tom was pastor of the CoB there was no ambiquity about the church's stance on homosexuality and this position was based on scripture, not because we were affiliated with the SBC. The point I've tried to make about Mosaic is that they seem to be "passing the buck" when it comes to expressing their own position regarding homosexuality rather than addressing it directly.

Keep in mind what Mosaic's executive pastor Eric Bryant said to Jose Arroyo:

"At the time, I had first considered leaving Mosaic back in November of 2007, when Eric asked to meet with me to discuss my concerns, he pointed out that he didn't see a conflict with my beliefs and Mosaic's stance simply because I had chosen to take a vow of celibacy which prevented me from engaging in homosexual sinful behavior. As long as I would continue to abide by such vow, I would have no problems remaining in the positions I had chosen to be involved at Mosaic."

If there was ever a time to address this issue head on with scripture, that was it!

I really don't understand why Mosaic doesn't address this issue openly but then again, if what Jose has said is correct, maybe it has a lot to do with the large number of gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender people who not only attend Mosaic but are directly involved in it's many "ministries?"

I can see how making such a public stance against homosexuality might lead to a significant drop in attendance at Mosaic. (As well as a drop in the number of people wiling to volunteer their "free labor.")

I have question for Erwin, is there any place for those mature and older adults in your church? Your church doesn't appear to be inviting to this group of adults. Families would be in same boat. The Mosaic bubble is not typical America.

This is why I believe many people would leave Mosaic if they really took the time to examine it's position on homosexuality. If Jose's experience is typical rather than atypical, then there are probably quite a few openly gay people at Mosaic who "believe" homosexuality is not a sin but this is okay with Mosaic because they haven't heard from their leadership that it isn't.

David, you wrote:

It is not a sin to be tempted, it's a sin to act on temptation.

This is partially correct but consider the words of Jesus in Matthew 5:27-28:

You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery';but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

According to Jesus, there are times when an unacted upon "thought" is a sin.

You also wrote:

Jesus was tempted (get this) in ALL ways as we are. Wow. Yet was without sin. Heb. 2:17

I'm not sure what your point is in mentioning this verse since we haven't been having a dispute about Jesus and his temptation in the wilderness.

I do however detect more than a hint of disrespect in your added commentary to the verse so I believe this will the last time I respond to you.

There are quite a few gay people in the closet at Mosaic who are involved in different ministries, particularly Urban Poets and the Artisans and Film which is so hypocritical. You see every Sunday gay dancers spinning and jumping on stage to the applause and admiration of everyone in the audience, and then followed by Erwin proclaiming how wonderful it is to maximize your God given gifts and potential, but behind the scenes they condemn your orientation. Mosaic and Erwin cannot have it both ways. However, everyone who knows Erwin well and personally knows how much of a homophobe he is. He has to always boast on stage about how macho he is and about how many different sports he can play while dressed in all the latest fashion trends and hairstyles. Am I the only one who can see the obvious contradictions?

I have not hidden that I am a pastor, and in the past you've called me "pastor david." -- on this blog. (page 7)

I believe what we say should be backed up with who we are. I appreciate that you do that.

My comment on Christ being tempted in all ways as we are is exciting to me since it means temptation itself is not a sin. Plotting, planning or acting on temptation is sin (yes, this includes choosing to lust) but just to be tempted is not.

Jesus was tempted in all ways as we are; my comment was: "wow" and "get this." I did not mean disrespect.

Has anyone listened to Erwin's podcast? Which I believe are taken from Mosaic's Sunday gatherings? He states clearly many times that homosexuality is a sin. I don't know of a full sermon he has devoted to the subject, but he has brought it up numerous of times. Just to name a particular teaching - "Integrity, The Quest for Honor" Erwin spent a good amount of time teaching that homosexuality is a destructive lifestyle and is sin. I think most people don't care for Erwin or the other teachers at Mosaic, which is fine. But since your not sitting their under the teaching it seems a stretch to be telling everyone that Mosaic publicly never teaches that homosexuality is a sin.

Has anyone listened to Erwin's podcast? Which I believe are taken from Mosaic's Sunday gatherings?

I think it would be great if you could cite where Erwin was so forceful against homosexuality. If not, we'll have to continue to ask why is Erwin so wishy washy and not more clear. I think his flock would agree. Thanks that would be wonderful if you could help this site with your reference.

Comrades,The real and most precise way to see if Mosaic follows the Bible regarding homosexuality is to ask McManus and the Mosaic board point blank: Will Mosaic publicly endorse a Yes on California Proposition 8 for the November 4, 2008 election ??

Proposition 8 is the Protect Marriage Proposition that will amend the California Constitution to state that marriage is between "a man and a woman". This proposition will protect Traditional marriage and Biblical marriage.

Of course, McManus and the Mosaic Board will either stall so the issue never gets voted on by November 2008 , or McManus will state that Mosaic is "neutral" because Mosaic loves everyone and everything but the Bible and Biblical truth.

Jesus Christ was always loving toward sinners, hating the sin but loving the sinner; however, Christ always stated when He forgave sins of the sinner, for the sinner to go and SIN NO MORE. For a church to endorse (either expressly or indirectly) any type of sin and any type of sinful lifestyle (e.g. greed, homosexuality, drug abuse, materialism, adultery, apathy, etc.) is the first sign that a church does not take the Gospel seriously or the Bible seriously.Any true believer should leave such a superficial and frivolous church immediately.

All this discussion about Mosaic implicitly endorsing homosexual relationships and lesbian relationships really disturbs me.I have been attending Mosaic for a few years now with my spouse and my small children.

I am a loving Christian but I do not want my children to become a homosexual or a lesbian. I work in the entertainment industry and I see how those lifestyles are very destructive to people. I also believe that these lifestyles are not in the natural order of God's creation and that God does not want his creations (us humans) to engage in same sex relationships.

I will not expose my young children to a church that does not take a firm and strong stand on this issue. Erwin and the Mosaic leadership must be strong about this issue from my point of view.

Overall, I have been noticing that they have been becoming more and more wishy washy and political lately. If they can not take a firm stand on a basic issue like this, then the "salt of the world" has lost its "saltiness".

I think that the problem that all you guys have been debating about homosexuality at Mosaic has its root problem in McManus not taking the Bible seriously and not urging the Mosaic members to actually read and study the Bible.

Here is a one paragraph quote by McManus from a CNN show in May 2007 about God and Science:

"PASTOR ERWIN MCMANUS, MOSAIC CHURCH: It's not about how much of the Bible you read. It is about allowing God to have a conversation with you, and you engage in an intimate relationship with him. And let me challenge you, if you want to begin to become the person God created you to be, begin to have a continuous awareness of God..."

The link:http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0705/19/siu.01.html

McManus here urges people to have an "awareness of God". The primary way to know God's teachings and God's thoughts are to read the Bible (God's Word) and to pray (engage in conversation with God). God speaks to us through his Word, the Bible.

God speaks his laws and his ways to us through the Bible. The Bible says that same gender sexual relationships are sinful and destructive. McManus should challenge his congregation to read the Bible. Instead McManus challenges his young Mosaic Bibles not to focus on the Bible but to have a one-way conversation with God where God's voice is left out (God speaking to them through his Word).

We all know how one-way conversations turn out. There is no feedback, no guidance, no communication from one party. The speaking party (here humans) will end up dominating the relationship to their own detriment. You end up with secular humanism instead of with Christians/followers of Christ.

I really resent the coward "Anonymous who wrote at 1:00 pm today August 25, 2008".

Your cowardly attacks on Erwin and Mosaic are full of lies.

Erwin is a loving and kind man. I have been active with Mosaic for about 8 years and I feel welcome and loved at Mosaic.

I have been active in many of the volunteer teams and volunteer ministries at Mosaic. There is a substantial number of gay women and gay men at Mosaic but they do not flaunt their lifestyles. Mosaic is loving and open and accepts them as they are, unlike all the other Southern Baptist Convention /SBC churches.

Erwin is a sensitive and loving man. He rejects the hateful SBC policies which outlaw gays from being active with SBC churches.

Erwin has even discreetly approached other gay friendly churches in L.A. to see if they will work with Mosaic in the future like the Metropolitan Community Churches / MCM group of gay friendly churches. There should be more loving and enlightened pastors like Erwin in the SBC.

"I am a loving Christian but I do not want my children to become a homosexual or a lesbian."

Comments like these is why people need to be educated about homosexuality. It is not something you can "CATCH". Most Christians are so ignorant about homosexuality, which is why they can't come up with an educated opinion on the the issue.Get educated!

Here is the summary so far:Mosaic approves of homosexuality.Erwin has never publicly said homosexuality is a sin.Mosaic doesn't teach the Bible.Erwin says don't read the Bible.Mosaic is New Age/ Humanistic.Erwin says believe in yourself not Jesus.

This is good stuff, it kind of proves why no one in leadership at SBC or Mosaic takes MOP seriously.These statements about Mosaic/Erwin supporting homosexuality and not reading the Bible - just make you guys look like liars.Any educated person can revisit all the times Erwin teaches that homosexuality is a sin. Lets not even consider what is that little book that Erwin reads out of every single Sunday? If you read his books it is like every other page mentions Jesus.All I'm saying is you guys might have real issues with Erwin changing the name of your church and firing leadership without reason. But when you start to go down this other path it just makes you loose all credit.

"All I'm saying is you guys might have real issues with Erwin changing the name of your church and firing leadership without reason. But when you start to go down this other path it just makes you loose all credit."

Anytime a group or individual calls attention to another group or individual's inappropriate behavior, there are always others that jump into the discussion and side track the issue.

That is pretty much what has happened here. MOP is not trying to say that Erwin does not teach from the Bible, or that he supports homosexuality. We aren't even complaining that he changed the name of the church.

Taking over a church and pushing out many of it's leaders and members - there you have it.

The bottom line is that the Church on Brady went from a church that desires to disciple the Believer while they evangelize; to a church, Mosaic that believes once you become a Believer all of the discipleship is over.

Ok I'm still waiting, can someone please cite where Erwin has come out strong against homosexuality in one of his sermons? Just cite the pod cast. Cite the page number in one of his self-help books. I haven't come across anything like it yet.

Hey guys,I agree with the poster who wrote on 8/17 at 5:55 pm who said:".....The Church is just getting weaker all the time you know. It is pointless for you pro-mosaic people and you MOP people to keep fighting over crumbs and scraps."

This guy is right that you pro-Mosaic of Pain ("MOP") loyalists and you Mosaic members and Mosaic dead-enders are really fighting over nothing.

The Christian church (Catholic and Protestant) is so weak in California and all over the US and Canada, that you MOP loyalists and you Mosaic member dead-enders are arguing over a patient (the Church) that is in the Emergency room and virtually on Life support.

The Emergent Church does not really convert anyone nowadays (convert complete non-Christians). Emergent Churches like Mosaic really only reach former Christians (people who used to attend church but have fallen away) or cultural Christians (people raised in the Church but who never professed a belief in Christ). Even in these 2 categories of people, that Mosaic reaches , their retention rate over time is very very low for keeping the person in any Christian church.

The numbers are so bad that I won't even mention them here.MOP and Mosaic are fighting over a desolate wasteland. You both should just forgive each other and seek the forgiveness of God for wasting valuable time at the very End, when God really needs people harvesting in the fields....the blood of Christ will wash away all sins....

This is a one sided battle. The MOP people even admit that Erwin or any of the leadership will not give them the time of day. You get a post sticking up for Mosaic or Pastor Erwin every once in awhile, but this is just because some of the MOP people keep hanging on to past relationships from Mosaic. MOP plays such the victim, they remind me of the Hebrews complaining and walking in circles for 40 yrs - but for MOP's case it has been only 10yrs so far. The only time I could think that Mosaic leadership has even mentioned MOP was when all the Mosaic Alliance Pastors and their elders attended a leadership training and they handed a list of over 200 group names and websites that hate Mosaic. Most of these are other religions or secularist. From what I gather this group (MOP) are mostly made up of very liberal Christians that at one time was part of Mosaic - but then decided that it wasn't the church they thought - when issues like Mosaic stating homosexuality is a sin, or the church is more about serving the lost world instead of baby sitting "Christians". Mosaic's discipleship program is very much the model of Jesus's. Taking the disciples out on outreaches like feeding people and gathering crowds in the cities for teaching. I have enjoyed it and grown in my understanding of the scriptures and my love for Christ. Hope you find your peace one day - no man or church can do that for you.

You MOP members do not have to worry about the demise of McManus's popularity and the fall of Mosaic.Time will do this for you.

McManus is turning 50 years old and he is looking physically tired and haggard and worn out. Mentally he also looks on the decline. His books just keep repeating the same mantra of maximization of the human potential and use less and less of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Any one who has attended Mosaic over the past half a dozen years can see that McManus is losing his popularity and his edge among the college and post-college youth.

Recently, McManus has sought to prop himself up by bring in a young pastor, a disciple from Willow Creek, named Steve Saccone, to co-preach with the aging New Age prophet McManus. I guess McManus thinks that Steve Saccone's youth and vigor will rub off on him.

Steve Saccone seems to be the Golden boy that McManus will rely on now to try to bolster his sagging popularity and the sagging finances of Mosaic L.A.

However, Saccone is just another Willow Creek clone soldier. The clone churches and clone soldier armies of Willow Creek , like Mosaic, that have spread around the USA and Canada, are admitted failures. They themselves admit that they all lack the true & powerful Holy Spirit of true churches of Jesus Christ and true disciples of Christ.

Mosaic and the Willow Creek clone churches are the lukewarm churches of Laodicea as described in the Book of Revelation, Chapter 3.The old Church on Brady in East L.A. really had the fire of the HOly Spirit and it was hot spiritually for God..... After McManus took over the Church on Brady, he turned it into a lukewarm mediocre church.

Hi,I am new to all this stuff. I have just become a Christian recently. I am from Eastern Europe. I am reading this M.O.P. website for the first time.

I have only visited the Mosaic Church a few times. My background is Roman Catholic. I am a graduate student in LosAngeles. I have come to America only a few months so my English is not too good.

My relatives suffered a lot under the Communists before the fall of the Berlin Walls. The Communists killed and put many Catholics in jail. But most still keep the faith in God. They worshipped in secretly so the Communists could not see them.

Mosaic is new experience to me. But it seems like most there at Mosaic do not seem to take the faith much seriously. In Eastern Europe, many died for the faith so they take the faith much seriously.You young Americans do not seem to take the faith much seriously.

You must love one another and love God. You must remember the wounds of Christ, in his hands and on the side of his boddy. You must remember the love of God or the faith will die in your countrie, my American frieends.

Erwin McManus’ own life is proof positive that anyone, no matter how many obstacles they face, can become a hero and live WIDE AWAKE. Growing up in poverty in El Salvador, young Erwin grew up surrounded by a hodge-podge of different religions – from Catholicism to Buddhism, mixed with atheism – with no real connection to any of them. Despite all odds, he pulled himself up by his own bootstraps and got into one of the nation’s most prestigious colleges, UNC Chapel Hill. As a 20-year-old philosophy student, he had a break-through and discovered his faith.Inspired by this ultimate wake-up call, Erwin put his faith into action and immediately started a non-profit with a nun helping prostitutes escape from Jamaican drug cartels. Erwin remained committed to this dangerous yet life-saving work for the next 10 years of his life. At one point, he was hit by a car on highway, and the doctors declared that he was paralyzed from the waist down and would never walk again. He walked out the hospital on his own two feet and has been walking ever since.Drawn to the creative spirit and energy of Los Angeles, it was not long before the man who never stepped inside a church until he was 20 years old unexpectedly found himself leading a small church and reaching out to the Latino community as its new pastor.

FACT:

The address for the original Church on Brady was 715 Brady Ave in East Los Angeles. This was, and still is, a predominately low income, Latino neighborhood.

For 25 years, BEFOFE THE ARRIVAL OF ERWIN MCMANUS, the Church on Brady slowly developed a solid reputation for "reaching out to the Latino community" through it's active involvement in numerous community outreach and social programs both in East Los Angeles and in neighboring cities.

FACT:

FIVE YEARS after Erwin McManus took over the leadership of the newly renamed "Mosaic", the congregation was uprooted from it's Latino neighborhood in East Los Angeles and became "nomadic."

[Source: Cover story for Tu Ciudad Magazine, Dec/Jan 2007, "Got Jesus Dude? Born in El Salvador, born again in the U.S., Erwin McManus now leads the hippest ministry in L.A.”, by Yvette Doss.]

FACT:

Mosaic's principal meeting place and corporate headquarters is now located in uppper-middle class Pasadena.

One of it's satellite services is held at the world famous Beverly Hills High School.

Another reason for "the church is here to feed & serve me" attitude of liberal Christians to leave Mosaic. Mosaic is nomadic and in doing so not only serves the latino community that is dear to Erwin's heart but over 60 other nationalities. Mosaic is about diversity in reaching all races. I don't think anyone would disagree that the old church "Brady" reached one segment of the population "latinos". But that was way to limited. Did you guys ever think that you didn't leave Mosaic on your own free will. But you were on purpose forced out? Mosaic openly admits it doesn't want Western Christians who want a country club church that is all about serving themselves.

When Pastor Thomas Wolf first came to Southern California's Church on Brady in 1969, the situation seemed dire. The Southern Baptist church in East Los Angeles had seen its historically Anglo following erode to 45 people as the neighborhood became mostly Mexican. Facing fiscal problems and demographic change, church elders even considered selling off the dilapidated property. Today, after more than a quarter century of Wolf's leadership, the Church on Brady boasts services averaging 700 worshippers, drawn from an ethnic mix as diverse as East L.A. itself.

2. George Hunter III

Author: Reaching the Unreached,1997

After examining 13 other churches including Willowcreek and Saddleback, Mr. Hunter declared the Church on Brady "“...the most apostolic congregation in America.”

3. International Mission Board (IMB) of the Southern Baptists Convention.

The IMB commended the Church on Brady for sending out more missionaries than any other church in the SBC.

4. Dr. Lyle Schaller

The Church on Brady tenaciously and persistently pursued the perennial apostolic paradigm of church ... multiplication rather than church ...maintenance." The Church on Brady started many new churches both locally in or near Los Angeles and internationally.

Source: http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Mosaic-Church[This is an EXCELLENT history of the Church on Brady.]

5. Dennis and Holly Hair

Excerpt from Holly's bio at http://perspectives-eastbay.org/html/body_speakers.html

In 1981 she became the Youth Director and Campus Minister for the Church on Brady in Los Angeles (now called Mosaic). Her ministry penetrated 17 urban high schools, training youth to reach their campuses to reclaim their classrooms. Holly experienced great joy in seeing the church mobilized to work with city government, law enforcement and local schools in addressing parenting issues, teen pregnancy and suicides.

Would anyone else like to add their name to this list of people who "disagree" ?

I don't think anyone disagrees that the church on Brady was a nice little old church back in the day. In fact it wasn't that little with 700 on the books. That seems like a real nice church for LA back in the seventies/eighties. The last time Erwin spoke at the SBC convention he acknowledged that Brady gave him a good foundation to build on. But at the same time you are in denial if you think Brady was even having half the impact that Mosaic is having. In truth, they are having the same impact because they are the same church. You just never could pick up books & dvds in your local super market all over the world from Brady. Mosaic just has taken the gospel further to more people. But Brady ran that first leg and handed the torch off. Be happy that Brady has grown to over three hundred thousand church members worldwide through the Mosaic Alliance or the Brady Alliance - who cares they are one.

My friends,I have a Mosaic printed and Mosaic generated brochure that has a subsection called "Mosaic Exhales the Gospel".

In that section of this Mosaic-written brochure, it says:"in October of 1991, Erwin McManus was invited as the keynote speaker for the Church on Brady's Spare Not Conference on World Evangelism. It was a sovereign encounter that would foreshadow things to come......On March 3, 1993, The Church on Brady unanimously invited Erwin to lead the congregation into the 21st Century. Erwin, born in El Salvador, became the congregation's first ethnic minority pastor...."

This brochure proves that you fools at the Mosaic of Pain (MOP) are a sorry bunch of moaners crying over spilled milk. Erwin was destined to lead the Church on Brady out of East L.A. into international greatness. Erwin was not opposed in become the church lead pastor at the Church on Brady as his election to this post was "unanimous".

Erwin was the first minority pastor at the Church on Brady.

Erwin only changed the name on Brady because God told him to do this.

This brochure makes no mention of the fools at MOP or that former Mosaic elder Robert Martinez or that prior pastor you keep moaning about named Pastor Tom Wolf. Erwin was the one with the vision and the leadership skills to tranform the Church on Brady in East L.A. from a parochial local small church into a world-class international mega-church.

Instead of moaning about this, the fools at MOP should thank Erwin for his genius and his hard work over the past 15 years since 1993.Erwin is a true friend and a stand-up guy. He led Mosaic to rescue the dying Chino HIlls (Inland Community Church) church led by the former Olympic swimming star Pastor Neighbour. That church was dying and on the ropes.

Erwin saved that Chino Hills Church and paid off their heavy mortgage. Erwin is a friend you can rely on. The money from the sale of the old church on Brady property in East L.A. was put to good and to holy use in paying off this Chino Hills mortgage. You fools at MOP should stop complaining about this and act like adults.

The anonymous guy that wrote on 8/29/08 is a kind of insulting and a condescending idiot; he said:"But Brady ran that first leg and handed the torch off. Be happy that Brady has grown to over three hundred thousand church members worldwide through the Mosaic Alliance or the Brady Alliance - who cares they are one."

This idiot tries to make Mosaic and its Mosaic Alliance seem larger than it really is. If you go to the Mosaic Alliance website then you can see that there are different levels of affiliation. the franchise levels are all pretty loose in terms of affiliation with the franchisor Mosaic in L.A.

The highest level of franchise affiliation requires that the Alliance Franchisee give Mosaic LA 5 percent of its missions budget.Supposedly, the franchisor Mosaic LA uses this 5 percent cut to help the franchisee with its missions work. But where does this 5 percent really go ??

Let's say 5 percent of a franchisee's missions budget in New Zealand or in Atlanta is 5 percent of $100,000 so $5,000 goes to the Mosaic LA church (Franchisor)......is their any financial accountablility in what Mosaic LA does with that $5,000 ??Does Mosaic LA's Treasurer or CPA report what is done with that $5,000 to the Mosaic LA members or to the members of the new Zealand church (franchisee) or the Atlanta churc (franchisee) ??Or does that $5,000 disappear into a financial grey zone that only the five male "Elders" of Mosaic LA know about ??

A grey zone of perhaps an annual Board of Director compensation to an Elder of say $15,000 per year; or a grey zone of $4,000 to pay for a 5 star hotel stay for Erwin at a great hotel resort in New Zealand and first class airline tickets to new Zealand for Erwin and his kids ??

Hey,This website has some pretty cool stuff on it and some pretty depressing stuff on it.I have only visited Mosaic a few times in Los Angeles. I am originally from New York City from a pretty tough neighborhood.

In my hood, people get robbed, beaten up, shot, stabbed pretty regularly because people really don't care about things.The people from my hood that were Christians took it kind of serious I mean they took their faith serious like.

There was a former gang banger I know from high school who survived a drive by on him and ended up in the hospital for several months on life support. This homie ended up becoming a Christian and giving up the life on the streets. When I ran into him on the street a few months ago in New York before I came to L.A. he looked kind of weird with a strange look of peacefulness in his eyes.

He told me that when you become a Christian you become a person without fear, you become fearless because God is with you and God is on your side. I told him to chill out because this all sounded too crazy for me.

At Mosaic, I do not see or meet anybody like this dude from my old hood. This guy was serious about being fearless. These guys and girls at mosaic do not seem to be cool like this dude. These Mosaic people seem to be kind of flaky like they want to be entertained by God instead of serving God. Maybe they have never seen life on the streets or been raised in the ghetto or the barrio.

Well, I think both you MOP dudes and you Mosaic dudes should all chill out and stop fighting. Life is too short for this kind of stuff. When you are raised in the hood you know life is short. A lot of my homies have died already before age 21 from drugs, gang life, etc.

I think it's interesting how ALL this- MOSAIC of PAIN and all this "I don't even have words for it", so fill in the blank- came about Mosaic actually having to DEAL with HOMOSEXUALITY in it's church/leadership. I guess revelation REALLY DOES come out of 'tragedy'. What are you all trying to accomplish here, I think the messages have been clear enough. Why don't you all just leave it in GOD'S HANDS once and for all? I dare you to shut this site down!

Mosaic’s appeal to people like Salaff has caused it to grow in less than six years from fewer than 100 members to nearly 2,000, with sister “communities” in San Francisco, Seattle, Manhattan, Atlanta and Nashville and more underway in Germany, Spain and Scotland.

This story was written in 2004. Counting backwards 6 years puts the date back to 1998. So, if this information were correct, that would mean that the Church on Brady had "fewer than 100 members" back in 1998.

That's ridiculous! Marc Spiegler wrote his article in 1996!!!!How could the Church on Brady have lost SIX HUNDRED members in just TWO YEARS!

This fallacy about "fewer than 100 members" was repeated in another news story written in 2005.

News Story:Dancing from the pulpit: Mosaic, a church that holds services in both Los Angeles and Pasadena, provides visitors and members a spiritual experience with creative and contemporary services that draw from the arts.

McManus was a key player in Mosaic’s development and attention-grabbing growth. He started an alternative service to the now-closed church on Brady, six years ago. Since then, it has grown from fewer than 100 members to nearly 2,000.

Now the date for the "fewer than 100 members" has shifted to 1999.

Don't forget the crucial fact that Erwin took over as lead pastor in 1994 so if there really was a dramatic decrease in attendance during this time period, it would have happened under Erwin's leadership, NOT Bro. Tom's!

Oh, and by the way, the Church on Brady didn't change it's name to Mosaic until 1998.

2. "That seems like a real nice church for LA back in the seventies/eighties."

Again, there is a problem with the timeline . . .

Erwin took over as lead pastor in 1994.

Marc Spiegler's article was written in 1996.

George Hunter III's book, "Reaching the Unreached" was published in 1997.

Thc Church on Brady becomes Mosaic in 1998.

3. The last time Erwin spoke at the SBC convention he acknowledged that Brady gave him a good foundation to build on.

When exactly was the last time Erwin spoke to the SBC and "acknowledged that Brady gave him a good foundation to build on?" Was this before or after the letters of complaint I sent to the SBC and CSBC back in 2007?

4. But at the same time you are in denial if you think Brady was even having half the impact that Mosaic is having.

I've never even given a hint of what my thoughts are concerning the amount of "impact" Mosaic is having in comparison to the Church on Brady so how could I possibly be "in denial" about it?

5. Be happy that Brady has grown to over three hundred thousand church members worldwide through the Mosaic Alliance or the Brady Alliance - who cares they are one.

Anonymous, "Brady" and Mosaic ARE NOT the same thing.

Erwin McManus has made it quite clear that he doesn't want people to believe Brady and Mosaic are the "same thing."

This is the text of the foreword that Rick Warren wrote for Erwin McManus' book, "An Unstoppable Force" published in 2001:

FOREWORD: This inspiring book is written by a survivor. Eight years ago, my friend Erwin McManus was called to pastor a church with a great history in urban Los Angeles. The Church on Brady was known for its creative pastor, its diversity, and its heart for missions. Most church consultants would have recommended that Erwin not accept the leadership of the church for 3 reasons: First, he’d be following a great senior pastor who served 25 years and created a very unique culture. Second, the church had been plateaued for 15 years and in decline for a few years. Third, the congregation was land-locked on 3/4th of an acre on a one-block street. Conventional wisdom would say “You’d be a fool to try to change a church with so much history. You’ll be martyred.” Transitioning this church for a different 21st century ministry would be difficult and painful. But Erwin stepped out in faith and accepted the challenge. Now he has led the church through a process of transition and renewal that is amazing, even changing the name of the church to Mosaic, (which, by the way, I think is one of the coolest names for any church). He has not only survived the transition, he has grown and thrived. That is rare.

This glowing forward by Rick Warren makes it sound as if Erwin stepped in to "save" the Church on Brady from itself. By including this foreword in his book, Erwin McManus was giving his approval to it's content.

[By the way, Warren's timeline is more ridiculous than the ones given in the news stories. If "the church had been plateaued for 15 years and in decline for a few years" at the time when this foreword was written, that would mean the CoB had been "plateaued and in decline" since 1986!]

Anonymous, if your last post is the best you can do in the face of cold, hard facts, then there's really no point in continuing this discussion.

"You have heard that the ancients were told, 'You shall not commit murder' and "Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.' But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You-good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell."

Friend, you have the right to disagree with what you read here but please be careful what you write.

I don't think Erwin or anyone at Mosaic could careless about how many people were at Brady. If you guys agree on 700 then thats fine. If you want to say a higher number that is fine. Honestly its petty. ERwin and everyone in leadership will say straight up that Brady was a great church and still is a great church called Mosaic. I do think where some of the number stuff gets confusing is that Brady was 700 strong, but when Erwin became the pastor during all the changes over the first set of years that more than half of the Brady church left - which brought the numbers down to maybe at 200 at best. Then through that Erwin has brought the church up to 2,500 or so to where it is today in Southern California and the hundreds of thousands world wide. And that should make you MOP's even happier because it validates your point that yourselves and hundreds of the old Brady church members did not like it when Erwin changed the name to Mosaic & started being more outwardly focused than inwardly taking care of the existing church members. Erwin was the reason in the beginning that Brady turned Mosaic declined by the hundreds. But Erwin was also the reason that Brady turned to Mosaic is not globally three hundred thousand plus strong. God can use a man who is humble, faithful, grateful, & generous like Pastor Erwin has walked out.

I don't think Erwin or anyone at Mosaic could careless about how many people were at Brady

---Your right Erwin could care less.

Erwin became the pastor during all the changes over the first set of years that more than half of the Brady church left - which brought the numbers down to maybe at 200 at best.

---Would this be considered fuzzy math?

Erwin was the reason in the beginning that Brady turned Mosaic declined by the hundreds. But Erwin was also the reason that Brady turned to Mosaic is not globally three hundred thousand plus strong.

---Huh? Translation? Not everyone could be like the writer of Ruben's Reviws.

God can use a man who is humble, faithful, grateful, & generous like Pastor Erwin has walked out.

---I don't know too many people that would put humble, grateful and generous next to Erwin's name. Maybe good speaker, cultural architect, narcistic, prideful and stubborn. Humble...have you read his books? A MOP MEMBER

I would strongly disagree that there was any type of focus towards Latino's or any race at Brady. I attended The Church on Brady for most of the 80's & 90's and can attest that there was no focus on any race. I think it only makes sense there were a large percentage of Latinos considering the neiborhood and Los Angeles in general. My family happen to live 30 minutes away (drive time), and like so many other families attended because it was a strong bible teaching/believing church. I happen to be Latino but race hardly ever was discussed accept to say that it simply was not an issue at the church. We served and followed God as the leadership served and followed God. We all had a voice and so it was fairly easy to do that.

...that should make you MOP's even happier because it validates your point that yourselves and hundreds of the old Brady church members did not like it when Erwin changed the name to Mosaic & started being more outwardly focused than inwardly taking care of the existing church members.

Can we all please stop concentrating on the name change? I find it interesting and somewhat annoying that in light of the far more serious issues that have been raised here, "anonymous" posters keep trying to focus on the non-issue of the name change to "Mosaic."

Personally, I wasn't bothered by the name change to Mosaic and I'm sure a lot of other Brady people felt the same way too. Back then, we all knew we would be moving from the Brady location so of course, we would need a new name.

Members didn't "leave Mosaic" because of the name change.

The complaints raised here at Mosaic of Pain have never been about the name change.

Is this clear now?

. . . started being more outwardly focused than inwardly taking care of the existing church members

Now this perception is exactly what this website is about. This is an entirely false depiction of the Church on Brady/Mosaic.

I've already cited the evidence that proves this statement is false so this is the last time I will address this particular point in these comment pages.

Would you please post the top ten reasons you hate Erwin & Mosaic. I know there are a bunch of articles written about this topic - but they are so long and wordy you just get lost. Could you sum everything up in a top ten list using one sentence. I think it would simplify your grieves.For Example:1) Erwin is a liar.2) Erwin is mean.3) Erwin is a sign of the end times.4) Erwin is the antichrist.5) Erwin loves money.6) Mosaic cares only for new Christians.7) Mosaic does not disciple8) Mosaic loves art more than God.9) Mosaic hates homosexuals.10) Mosaic worships the devil.That top ten list I used as an example is what I have concluded from spending about 30 min. reading the MOP website. Many people are not going to even spend that much time reading your website. It is very clear that you want Erwin to resign or be fired and then cry out for forgiveness for all the wrong he has done to you.

The issue of Jose Arroyo on this board concerns how Mosaic likes to give the impression of, "We will accept you as you are.", so they can increase their attendance. But, when push comes to shove, they are just another "follow the rules" church.

Following the rules is a good thing. MOP is trying to expose that Mosaic wants to appear one way, but act another. Which is hypocritical. And, Jose Arroyo's experience is one example.

Yvonne,Agreed. Sometimes nutty post like the one posted this morning at 6:31a.m. don't deserve the time to be addressed. I guess when you have no arguements or when your defending someone who has a shadey track record you have to make up a barrage of silly items. Sad. I hate to use the "C" word, but when you get post like that, you can't help but think that these people can't think for themselves and will believe anything that is put before them. Eyes Wide Shut!

So true Yvonne.These Mosaic church members are so ignorant and shallow. One day they will see how you tried to warn them about their evil leader. Then they will wish your daddy was still in charge. You go girl!

The lengths that some will go to in attempting to discredit this site:

1) Erwin is a liar.2) Erwin is mean.3) Erwin is a sign of the end times.4) Erwin is the antichrist.5) Erwin loves money.6) Mosaic cares only for new Christians.7) Mosaic does not disciple8) Mosaic loves art more than God.9) Mosaic hates homosexuals.10) Mosaic worships the devil.

"That top ten list I used as an example is what I have concluded from spending about 30 min. reading the MOP website."

FACT:

1) There have been one or two "anonymous" posters that have used that word, but it isn't what this site is about.

2) That statement has never been made on this site.

3) That statement has never been made on this site.

4) That statement has never been made on this site.

5) That statement has never been made on this site.

6) That statement has never been made on this site.

7) That statement has never been made on this site. - They don't emphasize it, however.

"So true Yvonne.These Mosaic church members are so ignorant and shallow. One day they will see how you tried to warn them about their evil leader. Then they will wish your daddy was still in charge. You go girl!"

I genuinely pray for you. There is, probably as you know, a verse that talks about pride proceeding a fall. Your attitude is such...

I would like to direct this post to Cris, Jacob, Yvonne, and any of the other regular MOP members. As I have posted earlier, I believe that you should shut down this site for a number of reasons, the main reason being that I don’t believe that it is an appropriate or biblical option for dealing with the pain you have experienced or for dealing with the alleged abuse of power, abuse of finances, and abuse of God’s word. However, I could be wrong and am open to that possibility.

What I am asking you to do is to talk with the Pastor of your current church about what has happened to you, show him the website, and get his opinion of whether or not this website is an appropriate response to what has happened and what other things he would suggest you do in response. My hopes are that one or more of the following will happen, he will encourage you to shut down the site, he will make suggestions to temper some of the posts, or he will have a suggestion that could bring resolution that has not been explored yet.

Bruce,Thank you for your post. I understand your concerns regarding this site and its purpose. In answer to your question regarding talking to my pastor, I think that this is a wise and important question to ask. My immediate pastor is well aware of MOP and Erwin McManus. I have shared with him my writings and correspondence with Erwin. I will not speak for him or the church, but they have not put a stop sign to my involvement, but have given me constructive counsel. I go to Whittier Area Community Church which is Erwin’s neighborhood church. I believe it’s not an accident that he has not been invited to speak at any of our events. Many of our leaders at WACC are either current or past leaders of Bethel seminary, which has embraced Erwin. I have shared in my past writings that I write because of my strong belief that it’s not Christians that are the number one problem with the church today, but its New Age movements and the Emerging Church Movement, which Erwin McManus is one of its active leaders that is confusing and dividing the “Church”. I understand that you and others may disagree; I would have to disagree with you agreeably on this one. I believe we are living in the times written by John in Revelations. I think it would be sin to keep silent. Respectfully, Jacob

What do you believe is the "appropriate or biblical option" for dealing with these issues? I really would like to hear your take on this, however; please don't assume that none of us have sought counsel from other pastors/leaders in the christian community for our participation here at MoP.

So far, I've received a lot of support and encouragement for my efforts.

I have already done this. Considering he has not publicly discussed this I do not want to say anything about his opinion. If you want more on this feel free to call me.

That said, I have asked 2 pastor friends their opinions as to what to do next. At this point their opinion is that I should contact the local SBC Association to let them know of the site and to give a few particulars that they might find of interest.

The further this goes on the wider the gap seems to be. I see more abuse and more pain. I see Erwin focus more on self and less on the word. There also seems to be an absence of accountability in regards to finances.

I have come to believe that Erwin is not preaching the gospel but rather a “pre gospel”. He has a really good hook but does not deliver the goods. What good is that without the true gospel? That said, the main reason I participate in this is because I have seen the pain up front. I have witnessed things that I cringe thinking I participated and allowed as a member of that church.

Doesn't the SBC leadership read Erwin's books?What about the Sunday School & small group materials that is bought in bulk by all the SBC church's from Chasing Daylight, Uprising, & his current book Wide Awake that has some rather expensive DVD's that go along with the written material.It seems SBC gives their stamp of approval on Mosaic?

I know you didn't list me by name, but I am fairly active on MOP. I read ALL the posts (feel like that is the responsible thing to do), some of which I feel are off point and even disrespectful, at times. I wish there was some type of "filter" to keep them out, but who would determine that?

Concerning your request. I have a bit of a different experience in seeking counsel for my involvement here. I have spoken to half a dozen (at length) of previous Brady leaders (pastors, elders, ministry heads) and all have said the same thing, "It is unfortunate that a MOP had to start, but necessary."

I know we are not, on any level, comparable to Luther - but one could probably say the same thing about the Wittenburg Door.

Eddie Marshall

P.S. And, I'm sure you recall some of the conversations you and I had when the site first went up. I would love for us to find a resolution to this situation still, as well.

I think the Emergent Movement will someday be recognized as a separate denomination in the Christian Church. I think that any implications that Mosaic (Emergent Church) is a false church might be too big a stretch. MOP members seem to be straight forward Baptists, so conflicts in Christian ideologies between Mosaic and MOPPers should be evident.

Bruce,It is noble what you are trying to accomplish, but this site gives these people a reason to exist. Yes it is not a great witness to see "Christians" fighting. But if this site goes down there is still 200 more hate groups that want to see Erwin & Mosaic fall. These groups will always be around and the more impact the particular church or ministry has the more critics it will have. Take Rick Warren, Billy Graham, or John Piper all three of these men have greater influence for the gospel than Erwin McManus - but they also have so many more critics & hate groups. When the Body of Christ needs to be concerned is when men of God like these try to get revenge on these hate groups. Erwin is doing taking the high road and not responding to any of these attacks. He has gone as far as to hand out lists to all other Mosaic pastors around the world and made it clear not to engage in any debating with them. I am not in leadership at Mosaic but do attend and very interested in all this mess. The MOP is really one of the more civil hate groups compared to many others. I would go as far as if anyone in Mosaic leadership knew I was posting on the site - they would still love me but not approve.I do think that is why many who take up for Erwin & Mosaic do not give up their identity. I respect that Erwin does not want to try to engage in fights. He is much more noble than me. If my wife, kids, & my character were attacked like they are here - I would be boiling mad. But also I guess if he spent all of his time engaging with the drama - there would be no time for helping people and reaching them with the gospel. So it makes a little sense to me why he chooses to abstain.

Rather than answer the legitimate questions and accusations that have been raised here, Erwin has decided to call this a "hate site." Just because Erwin Raphael McManus has labeled this a hate site doesn't make it so.

MoP is a "criticism" website.

Criticism and hatred are not the same thing.

Moving on . . .

Willis Quan,

I think that any implications that Mosaic (Emergent Church) is a false church might be too big a stretch.

Who here at MoP has implied that "Mosaic is a false church?" Answer that question first, and I'll be more than willing to discuss the rest of your comment.

To Anonymous of September 4, 2008 10:47 AM

You wrote:

Erwin is doing taking the high road and not responding to any of these attacks. He has gone as far as to hand out lists to all other Mosaic pastors around the world and made it clear not to engage in any debating with them.

"Erwin . . . is not responding?"

"Erwin . . . has gone as far as to hand out lists to all other Mosaic pastors around the world . . . "

Anonymous, do you not see that the second statement negates the first?

If Erwin "is not responding" then why did he "hand out lists?" Isn't that a "response?"

Since Erwin has, in fact, "responded"; why didn't he respond by refuting the charges that have been raised here?

For example:

Was the $700,000 raised for the "Believing the Impossible" capital fundraising campaign spent in accordance with the wishes of the donors? Since the promotional flyers for this event were very clear in specifying exactly how the money would be spent, these funds were clearly intended as "donor restricted" gifts.

The BTI fundraiser was an appeal for donations to be used towards the "purchase" of property in the "L.A. area" for the "use" of the Mosaic congregation.

Is this what those funds were used for?

Anonymous, this is a very simple accounting question that doesn't imvolve "hatred" or doctrinal disagreements.

So why has Erwin McManus and Mosaic chosen to remain silent on this issue?

This is what the Evangelical Council on Financial Accountability has to say about:

Refunding Contributions to a Donor:http://www.ecfa.org/TopicDisplay.aspx?PageName=TopicRefundingContributions

However, donors may contribute designated or restricted funds based on the anticipation that a certain event will occur. Their intent is to make an irrevocable gift that will be used for restricted purposes. . . .

If the donors can be identified, they should be asked whether they would like to remove the restriction related to their gift. Otherwise, the money should be returned to the donors. . . .

If the donors cannot be identified, the congregation may redirect use of the funds after making an announcement of the church’s intention to redirect the funds.

Was there any effort made to advise the orginal BTI donors that the funds they gave towards the purchase of a church would instead be used to "bail out" another church?

Then there are the questions about the four "Awakens." Erwin is directly involved in three of these non-profit corporations that are now "suspended" by the State of California (he is listed as the "agent for service of process" for two of them and his literary agent is listed as the "agent for service of process" on the third.) Eric Bryant is listed as the "agent for service of process" for the fourth one. Eric Bryant has been described as Erwin McManus' "right hand man."

What is going on with all these non-profits? Why aren't they filing the appropriate state paperwork to keep themselves in good standing?

Again, the response from Erwin McManus and Mosaic is an eerie silence.

The information about these corporations is available for free through the California Business Portal:

http://kepler.ss.ca.gov/list.html

and at the website for the California State Attorney General's Office:

http://rct.doj.ca.gov/MyLicenseVerification/Search.aspx?facility=Y

Since the information found at these two government websites reflects negatively on Erwin McManus, would he label them as "hate sites?"

Anonymous, when you write:

Erwin is doing taking the high road and not responding to any of these attacks. He has gone as far as to hand out lists to all other Mosaic pastors around the world and made it clear not to engage in any debating with them.

I'm not convinced that Erwin's admonition to "not engage in any debating" is based on his desire to "take the high road."

Mosaic's Jimmy Duke and Eric Bryant tried to "debate" me in what became a rather heated and unintentionally "revealing" exchange of private emails.

I'm sure both men wish they hadn't hit the "send" button now.

This is why "it makes a little sense to me why he chooses to abstain."

Hey Willis,I agree that Mosaic is Emergent, but I can't speak for the other posters on this site. I did come away from Brady being more Calvinist. But again, that was my experience. It does appear that Mosaic doesn't follow the traditional Calvinist mode, but again that is my opinion. I do disagree with your comment in regards to "Mosaic being a false church is a stretch". When you have a pastor who focuses on the individual and his/her potential and not Christ you have to be concerned. This is a pastor who teaches other pastors. His influence is significant. And he, being a public figure, should be scrutinized on some of his outlandish statements, but of course in a respectful way. Take a moment to really listen to what he's saying. His belief that creativity is a natural result of spirituality is off base. Where is this located in scripture? I think the bible is very clear about adding to its cannon. And the list of statements like these goes on. What concerns me is that many of his followers don't question him, but defend him because he's a "nice" guy. Where has critical thinking gone? I don't attend his church, but I believe that someone should speak up? Don't you?

"Do not conform no longer to the patterns of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind." Creativity is the natural result of spirituality. Mosaic teaches that you renew your mind through the meditation on the Scriptures - God's Word. This process allows you to become the truly unique creative being that Jesus Christ dreams of. Call that theology what you want. I have been mentored from a far through Pastor Erwin's teachings of Jesus Christ. God has used him to help me have understanding on what a mature unique follower of jesus Christ looks like. It's this truth that is the foundation for my personal life that helps me see that creativity is a natural result of spirituality.

This post by Eric is puzzling because he doesn't provide any type of context for it. Why did he choose to post on this subject? It makes the reader wonder if something is about to happen concerning the leadership at Mosaic.

Eric Bryant:

For books about entrepreneurial leadership, check out Erwin’s books An Unstoppable Force and Chasing Daylight as well as Mark Batterson’s book In a Pit With A Lion on a Snowy Day.

Posted to Eric Bryant's website: Are you an entrepreneur?http://www.ericbryant.org/2008/08/28/are-you-an-entrepreneur-last-chance/

Remember Eric's question, "Which type of leader is most commmon in our churches or in the business world?"

And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

Don't forget about . . .

Romans 13:1 - 8

Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God and those which exist are established by God.Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the samefor it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does no bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience' sake. For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing.Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor. Owe nothing to anyone except love to one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.

I just got an email from Jimmy Duke regarding my post of September 4, 2008 6:09 PM.

[Thank you Jimmy for writing to me.]

Hi Yvonne,

I noticed on the MOP website that you mentioned me regarding the email exchange that we had a long time ago. You mentioned that it was “heated”. I don’t remember our exchanges that way at all. I thought our exchange was quite the opposite. I do admit to having a “heated” exchange with Eddie Marshall over email that eventually ended positively, but never with you. If somehow I said something to you in our emails that offended you, then I apologize. It was certainly never my intention. And I certainly do not regret ever hitting the “send” button.

Blessings,

Jimmy Duke

This is my response:

Hello Jimmy,

Actually, the "heated" part took place between myself and Eric but in your last email to me on Apr 26, 2007 12:08 PM I wasn't sure if you were starting to get a little warm under the collar too.

I've reread this email and come to the conclusion that you were in fact, quite reasonable so I will make a correction to my response at MoP.

This is Willis in response to Jacob, should I assume it is Jacob Aguilar? Anyways, I think everyone has a right in this county to speak up, freedom of speech remember, so I got nothing against that. Erwin's take on the gospel does seem to sound more New Age and like L. Ron Hubbard. I am not a Mosaic attender anymore and I don't sympathize too much with Mosaic's stance on spirituality. For the sake of evangelism, I guess I can't criticize what Mosaic is doing, they are getting people to accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. But as far as how much more spiritual those Mosaic people will become later, I don't know. Overall, any Christian church could improve in some way or another.

And in response to Yvonne, that statement that I wrote about "implications for a false church" is based on the impression that I am getting about what MOPers are conveying. Maybe I am misunderstanding you guys and gals from MOP, if so, I apologize, but in any case, if Mosaic is not a "false church", then what do you and other MOPers think it is. Are they a church that is doing the "Lord's Work"?

I think last question is a good one. I have been doing some studying and have come to understand that Erwin is preaching a "pre-gospel" message. He has a great hook. He gets them in the door. He provides an atmosphere where people not only want to listen but also want to engage. Erwin and Mosaic do a great job at that.

The problem is that Erwin does not present the full gospel and therefore it is not the gospel. It must include the whole thing including that we are saved by grace, we are saved from our sin, we are dead in our past and without God's sacrifice we are lost. All our deeds are worthless. It is Jesus whom saves us, period.

MOP is not only about theology and has not been my personal focus. That said, I have felt it important to understand why some feel his theology is off. This is no little matter.

Simply put, he is great at pre-evangelism. He doesn't deliver the goods and that is a major problem that causes alot of serious spiritual issues for the individual and The Church.

To answer your question, I am moving to a position that Erwin is not doing God’s work. There is a simple solution to this though. Simply partner up with a church or a pastor that has the hart to present the full gospel. If I could add also, that this partnership could also work on discipleship. It is a matter of realizing there is a major void and finding people who would love to serve in that manor. How great it would be if Erwin allowed this.

MOP began originally with the statement that Mosaic, guided by Erwin's leadership, treated many Church on Brady OG'ers disrespectfully, and without concern to their years of investment. Especially, but not limited to: Thomas Wolf, Carol Davis, Robert Martinez, Robert Sortino, to mention just a few.

If any of you doubt this; ask yourself, "Have any of these individuals ever once visited Mosaic since their forced departures?" A regular practice seen at every church around the globe.

This is such a great chance for new film makers wanting to get their talents shown world wide. Mosaic has a distribution deal with Wal-Mart, Target, & Best Buy stores. This means your film could be on the shelves across the nation. It's nice to be able to pick up Mosaic resources in the Christian bookstores and through the various denominations online shops. But I think it is great when the quality of products that display the Gospel of Jesus Christ gets distributed in mainstream stores. By the way have you guys seen the Vacation Bible School resources Mosaic is producing through their children ministry? Our kid's ministry team is flying out to Southern California to attend the Children's Outreach Conference at Saddleback Church with Erwin & KIm McManus & Rick Warren and his wife. Mosaic is starting to produce some of the most creative stuff for kids church. We've also enjoyed the small group discipleship videos and workbooks for our adult Sunday School class. Oh well pray for our college ministry they are going to submit a film in the contest. I am a father of six so I am all over the map when it comes to the church. I have read a good bit of this site and pray for you guys to find your peace through Christ Jesus. I also pray that Erwin does the right thing, concerning your issues you have voiced on your site. Thanks for letting me post.

I do think there is a great need to produce Hollywood quailty films that express christian values in a positive way and I agree with you that "it is great when the quality of products that display the Gospel of Jesus Christ gets distributed in mainstream stores."

However, I think you're missing the point of my post. (By the way, did you read my commentary on the Mosaic LA Film Festival at my blog, Solid Foods?)

You wrote,

"This is such a great chance for new film makers wanting to get their talents shown world wide. "

Are you referring to MOLAFF?

The problem with MOLAFF is that it is not a "christian" film festival because it is open to the general public, so while it may or may not be "a good chance for new film makers," MOLAFF doesn't have any moral or religious standards for submissions other than that they NOT:

We are daring you to move us--that's why we welcome films that test the boundaries of comfort.

Between those two statements is a enormous amount of leeway when it comes to content and subject matter. Now factor in that the contest is open to everyone; christian and non-christian, and you'll see why I'm concerned about what type of entries may be submitted.

As worded in their promotional materials, MOLAFF is NOT designed to encourage film makers to promote the Gosple of Jesus Christ but instead is encouraging a more generic, spirituality/mysticism that would include ANY type of religious viewpoint.

How could such a film festival be helpful for christian film makers who want to make "christian" films?

Then there's the strictly business end of the bargain.

MOLAFF appears to be a huge advertising campaign for Erwin McManus' new book/dvd, "Wide Awake."

How does Mosaic intend to handle the IRS issue of " no benefit to a private person?"

Anonymous wrote:

I have read a good bit of this site and pray for you guys to find your peace through Christ Jesus. I also pray that Erwin does the right thing, concerning your issues you have voiced on your site. Thanks for letting me post.

Thank you for your prayers but please don't assume that we are not at peace with Christ Jesus.

To the anonymous father of six who posted on September 9 (and all other interested parties):

In a recently prepared press release, MOLAFF has finally revealed that the location for the film festival will be the Silent Movie Theater in Los Angeles.

This appears to be the same movie theater that recently held a "mondo christploitation night" and has a video clip, "Jesus is a friend of mine," at their blog: http://www.silentmovietheatre.com/blog/index.html

I guess it's a good thing that MOLAFF isn't advertising itself as a "christian" film festival.

More about the "mondo christploitation night" at Silent Movie Theater:

(Caution: I don't recommend that you allow children to view this link due to language and subject matter.)

http://www.silentmovietheatre.com/calendar/saturday_late.html

Quote from above:

Who says Christians don’t like exploitation? Evangelical filmmakers are filmmakers too--they want to engage, excite, scare and please their audience with the best rip-roarin' tale they can--but with a message too!

I'm bothered about something. Where are the phantom 200 "hate" sites of Mosaic. I have come across a couple of peculiar sites, but hate? 200? Now is this fuzzy math and why can't there be sites to question issues that are brought up by and at Mosaic? Is questioning a sin? Help

Taking a look at this site about an interview with Erwin is very revealing. Erwin answers the critics regarding his "self-help" books.

"...he refers to as an environment that supports the unleashing of its members' creative potential and rise to the challenges God has given them—to transform their lives and give themselves, as he writes in one memorable passage, "the ability to get up in the morning and look in the mirror and like the person you are becoming." And yet, although the rhetoric may sound familiar, he says, "it's not about self-help—it's about getting out of your self."

What do you think? Does Erwin protest too much? Sorry Erwin, we just don't believe you any more.