Cliffski's Blog - Kickstarting inequality.Kickstarter is the absolute poster-child for inequality amongst gamers, based on income. Now I am definitely not a raging socialist, but I know a lot of gamers are, and I find it a bit weird that it doesn’t bug them that when these kickstarter games ship, not only will gamers with more money that them be swanning around with better outfits and weapons, (This already happens in F2P games), but some of the NPC’s will have the names of the ‘wealthy’ backers. Some will even have their digitized faces in the game. Elite is actually naming PLANETS after people who back the game with a lot of money.

Gamers say they hate in-game product placement and advertising. It compromises the game design for the sake of money. I agree. So why are we deciding that the best way to name our planets or design the appearance of our NPC’s is to put that part of game design up for auction? Why should gamers who are wealthy get more influence over a game that those who flip burgers for a living? The cold hard economic reality of the real world is bad enough without shoehorning it into games too.

eRe4s3r wrote on Nov 27, 2012, 02:08:To be fair, the threaded view can be confusing I am sure Prez knew what I meant though but took the ambivalent meaning instead of the literal one. So he proved superb reading comprehension.

It just wasn't what I wanted to rant about at all

Haha.

“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” - Mahatma Gandhi

eRe4s3r wrote on Nov 26, 2012, 11:20:And you know what, we are saying this to the same people every single god damn time. You'd think they have Armor Resistance 9000 vs reading comprehension or some shit like that...

*sigh*

eRe4s3r wrote on Nov 26, 2012, 23:47:Yeah, but I meant the Cliffski vs CliffyB confusion ;p

eRe4s3r wrote on Nov 26, 2012, 11:20:And you know what, we are saying this to the same people every single god damn time. You'd think they have Armor Resistance 9000 vs reading comprehension or some shit like that...

*sigh*

Likely they view the ones they debate with to be just as irrational and just as unwilling to listen to reason. It's the internet in the modern age.

Me, I have given up worrying about who is right and who is wrong and simply hope that whatever does come of the fiscal cliff negotiations may actually get the economy moving in the right direction again, however slowly. As for the socialism discussion, I really don't care anymore. Socialism, capitalism, communism... whatever system you choose is only as good as the people in charge. Which is why it hardly matters to me at this point how you define what we are or where we are headed. Get term limits for all Congressmen, Congresswomen and federal judges passed into law and then maybe I'll start feeling hopeful again.

“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” - Mahatma Gandhi

StingingVelvet wrote on Nov 26, 2012, 04:17:It's exceedingly amusing how these debates always come down to free market libertarianism versus outright socialism. As with most things in life the truth is in the middle, but passionate debaters tend not to realize that.

Clinton-esque social democracy for the win.

Or just one looney bin case who refuses to engage on issues vs the rest of the forum.

I once read a little bit of the book "My Struggle". It taught me lot about the human condition and a little bit about a form of socialims called National Socialism. Needless to say I quit about halfway through because it was pure garbage of a raving lunatic.

It's exceedingly amusing how these debates always come down to free market libertarianism versus outright socialism. As with most things in life the truth is in the middle, but passionate debaters tend not to realize that.

Axis wrote on Nov 24, 2012, 22:48:Maybe you should actually live in or well-know someone who lived in a socialist country before you announce the wonderfulness of what you believe it is.

All Nordic countries are essentially socialistic democracies.

Oddly enough, they also tend to shine in the quality of life barometers - even your own Newsweek elected one to be the best country to live in in 2011..

And that quality is going down for several reasons. Two of the main reasons for that high quality of life would be a monoculture (Nordic countries full of nordic peoople) and the USA covering much of the defense costs. Look up Malmo Sweden. Not exactly high quality of life there these days, if you're not a muslim.

Dades wrote on Nov 25, 2012, 19:40:Tea party drama baby with no functional understanding of how society works spotted. "Stop the gubrnment from taking all of our monies, go make your own obama wannabes!"

- DADES - This is a signature of my name, enjoy!

Look! It's the generic troll who feels compelled out of self appreciation to comment in every thread! Quick, play the applause sound board!

Axis wrote on Nov 25, 2012, 18:12:What argument did I ignore? I hit it spot the fuck on.

You: Rich people pay 4x the income tax middle class to. That's not a fair share.

Me: Rich people make anywhere from 5-10,000 times what the middle class make. Paying 4 times more isn't even close to paying their fair share.

You: Go fucking earn more asshole.

How's the weather that far up bullshit mountain dude?

So tell me, what's fair, who decides, and who does it go to?

You think the GOVT should?What about when Conservatives are back in power? Want them to decide?

How about this -- Who fucking cares how much people make? Go make your living and keep your envy out. Want more, go get it.

And flat I never called you an asshole, but you did give me a 'fuck you'.

If you truly work for yourself, you of all people should have the opposite view - a responsible one. I work for myself, and I cannot imagine a life where I'm envious of anyone else. I have all I need after many years of busting my ass out of nothing. I got it all on my own and continue to get it on my own. I served in the Armed forces, lived in poor countries, had some serious hardships. But I also have perspective of what is necessary in life, and most liberals don't.

So all this kiddy "boo hoo hoo life is unfair" bullshit just doesn't fly, that's the stuff of inexperience in life.

Axis wrote on Nov 25, 2012, 16:19:What matters is the FACT that Cutter (and most of you liberals) think socialism is "rich paying fair share". What's also FACT is the IRS records indicating the rich pay 4x more than the middle class.

The rich may pay 4 times the middle class, but they make, pretty much by definition, 5-10 times minimum what the middle class makes (average household income being 50k a year, and the average "middle class" salary is 27k a year, and the definition of the top 5% of income is around 250k a year). So... yeah... fair share.

But the IRS tax code isn't about fair share, it's about equal burden. What I pay at 50k is supposed to "hurt" about as much as someone who makes 20 million a year. The number will be different, but the intent is to have equal burdens across the field. If you make 20 million a year (like Mittens), paying 15k a year in taxes is unnoticeable except in an empirical way. I feel that 15k a year on my 50k a year salary quite a bit. On someone who makes 25k a year, 15k in taxes would be crushing, to the point where you couldn't really live.

So, someone who makes 25k a year will pay around 5k in taxes total and feel it. I'll pay 15 and feel it, and Mittens, if the system worked as intended, should probably pay around 10 million to feel the same burden.

Or, if you go by the Eisenhower tax rates, he should be paying about 19 million in taxes on that 20 million dollar income.

Then go out and work and make fucking more!

If I want more money, I work more hours, get more education, people network more, ask questions, get grants, light a fire under my ass.

It's those 5-10 times guys who give the majority of us a fucking job. Don't wanna make what you're making? Figure out how to make more! My immigrant family tree did. Koreans and Indians today are, so are a ton of other ethnic groups leaving their countries to come here making a KILLER living over here from nothing.

It's up to the individual to make something of themselves. Americans are happy to help those who truly cannot, but the majority truly can.

So go out and "Can". Nothing is stopping you but yourself.

Nice how you completely ignore the argument bro.

You're not just "not right", you're not even wrong. You're on a different conversation.

But anyway, I'm 100% self-employed so go fuck yourself. I do it *all* by myself, with no assistance other than the rather considerable education that the state of California helped provide me with at an affordable rate, and I'm perfectly wiling to reinvest into the infrastructure. That's where my future employees, and more importantly future customers come from.

I don't want a freebie or a handout, I want a fair crack at earning something. And I have yet to see how making a rich motherfucker richer is going to give me a fair crack at anything. It's the same pitch as the scummiest religion: Give me your money, your obedience, and your political power, and at some future point (after you die in the case of religion) you too will be rewarded.

I'm sorry, but I don't think the economy should be faith-driven.

What argument did I ignore? I hit it spot the fuck on.

What I'm reading from you is a gigantic pat on your own back. Congrats!

Axis wrote on Nov 25, 2012, 16:19:What matters is the FACT that Cutter (and most of you liberals) think socialism is "rich paying fair share". What's also FACT is the IRS records indicating the rich pay 4x more than the middle class.

The rich may pay 4 times the middle class, but they make, pretty much by definition, 5-10 times minimum what the middle class makes (average household income being 50k a year, and the average "middle class" salary is 27k a year, and the definition of the top 5% of income is around 250k a year). So... yeah... fair share.

But the IRS tax code isn't about fair share, it's about equal burden. What I pay at 50k is supposed to "hurt" about as much as someone who makes 20 million a year. The number will be different, but the intent is to have equal burdens across the field. If you make 20 million a year (like Mittens), paying 15k a year in taxes is unnoticeable except in an empirical way. I feel that 15k a year on my 50k a year salary quite a bit. On someone who makes 25k a year, 15k in taxes would be crushing, to the point where you couldn't really live.

So, someone who makes 25k a year will pay around 5k in taxes total and feel it. I'll pay 15 and feel it, and Mittens, if the system worked as intended, should probably pay around 10 million to feel the same burden.

Or, if you go by the Eisenhower tax rates, he should be paying about 19 million in taxes on that 20 million dollar income.

Then go out and work and make fucking more!

If I want more money, I work more hours, get more education, people network more, ask questions, get grants, light a fire under my ass.

It's those 5-10 times guys who give the majority of us a fucking job. Don't wanna make what you're making? Figure out how to make more! My immigrant family tree did. Koreans and Indians today are, so are a ton of other ethnic groups leaving their countries to come here making a KILLER living over here from nothing.

It's up to the individual to make something of themselves. Americans are happy to help those who truly cannot, but the majority truly can.

So go out and "Can". Nothing is stopping you but yourself.

Nice how you completely ignore the argument bro.

You're not just "not right", you're not even wrong. You're on a different conversation.

But anyway, I'm 100% self-employed so go fuck yourself. I do it *all* by myself, with no assistance other than the rather considerable education that the state of California helped provide me with at an affordable rate, and I'm perfectly wiling to reinvest into the infrastructure. That's where my future employees, and more importantly future customers come from.

I don't want a freebie or a handout, I want a fair crack at earning something. And I have yet to see how making a rich motherfucker richer is going to give me a fair crack at anything. It's the same pitch as the scummiest religion: Give me your money, your obedience, and your political power, and at some future point (after you die in the case of religion) you too will be rewarded.

I'm sorry, but I don't think the economy should be faith-driven.

Edit: Yes, I will agree creating a fortune is tough, but guess what, most of the top .5% didn't create their fortunes, they inherit it. Mitt Romney has so much goddamn money that he earns 20 million a year doing NOTHING. The Koch brothers? Worth Billions? Inherited from their fathers who did the real work. The Walton family? Worth as much as the bottom 43% of the US? Inherited from Bud & Sam Walton. Eisenhower tax rates were aimed at these people. And there were still ways to get around that high a tax rate: we created new millionaires during that time. The high tax rate was meant to punish people who just sat on their money and let it accumulate. Reinvesting, putting the money back into the system, creating jobs, that was where the tax breaks were.

So your idea that the rich motherfuckers being job creators isn't far off... but only when you have a stinking high tax rate and explicit incentive not to sit on your money and to put it back in the system. Which is exactly what we *don't* have today. It's more rewarding to take money *out* of the economy and sit on it and bet with it on the derivative market than it is to put back into the economy.

Axis wrote on Nov 25, 2012, 16:19:What matters is the FACT that Cutter (and most of you liberals) think socialism is "rich paying fair share". What's also FACT is the IRS records indicating the rich pay 4x more than the middle class.

The rich may pay 4 times the middle class, but they make, pretty much by definition, 5-10 times minimum what the middle class makes (average household income being 50k a year, and the average "middle class" salary is 27k a year, and the definition of the top 5% of income is around 250k a year). So... yeah... fair share.

But the IRS tax code isn't about fair share, it's about equal burden. What I pay at 50k is supposed to "hurt" about as much as someone who makes 20 million a year. The number will be different, but the intent is to have equal burdens across the field. If you make 20 million a year (like Mittens), paying 15k a year in taxes is unnoticeable except in an empirical way. I feel that 15k a year on my 50k a year salary quite a bit. On someone who makes 25k a year, 15k in taxes would be crushing, to the point where you couldn't really live.

So, someone who makes 25k a year will pay around 5k in taxes total and feel it. I'll pay 15 and feel it, and Mittens, if the system worked as intended, should probably pay around 10 million to feel the same burden.

Or, if you go by the Eisenhower tax rates, he should be paying about 19 million in taxes on that 20 million dollar income.

Then go out and work and make fucking more! Then once you do figure out how hard it is to make a ton of money, sign up for Eisenhower's tax rate!

If I want more money, I work more hours, get more education, people network more, ask questions, get grants, light a fire under my ass, take risks, get back up on the horse if I fail.

It's those 5-10 times guys who give the majority of us a fucking job. Don't wanna make what you're making? Figure out how to make more! My immigrant family tree did. Koreans and Indians today are, so are a ton of other ethnic groups leaving their countries to come here making a KILLER living over here from nothing.

It's up to the individual to make something of themselves. Americans are happy to help those who truly cannot, but the majority truly can.

So go out and "Can". Nothing is stopping you but yourself. And this "take from those who make the most to divvy it among those who work the least" is a pipe dream. Get over it, go do something about it.