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MTT
by AMT
(Micro/Small Stakes)

Hitchhiker's Guide to SNGs: Episode One

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Hitchhiker's Guide to SNGs: Episode One by AMT, bones

Bones and AMT debut their new video series and talk about how to study videos, forums, sngwiz, and study groups. Other topics include bankroll management, game selection, game type and, number of tables.

About Hitchhiker's Guide to SNGs

AMT and bones cover everything you need to know to travel the universe of SNGs. How to study, where to play, bankroll management, and more included. Make sure you bring your towel.

urinpain

assume Hero calls the flop, villain checks the turn:why shove it? As there are nearly no draws available (2-5 outers won't call a shove I guess), I can't find some worse hands calling our shove, so why not just check behind the turn and give him the chance to (semi)bluff the river? (or if he checks bet the river ourselfs, which would look pretty weaker (or even like a bluff) after our check behind)

AMT

assume Hero calls the flop, villain checks the turn:why shove it? As there are nearly no draws available (2-5 outers won't call a shove I guess), I can't find some worse hands calling our shove, so why not just check behind the turn and give him the chance to (semi)bluff the river? (or if he checks bet the river ourselfs, which would look pretty weaker (or even like a bluff) after our check behind)

I think it might be ok, and would be moreso if the board was even more dry (like A22r or A83r) but in general is really trying to take the trappings in a spot like this a bit too far imo. There's a general poker concept (that applies more to short stacked tournament situations than anything probably imo) that says that as the pot gets bigger, you have less and less of a need to be slow playing your hand/trying to "Trap" more money into the pot. I believe that applies with the stacks as they are on the turn. Also, while the board is seemingly safe now, there are a good few turn cards that we won't love to let draw to a turn and then a free river for one big blind (Pretty much any Broadway except an ace, an 8 even, especially those that bring added flush draws). This would probably be letting your opponent play better against you.

That, coupled with the fact that he is going to have barely over 1/2 pot left on the turn makes me feel that the pot size is plenty huge enough to justify sticking it in if checked to a lot of the time (perhaps timing and the actual turn card might sway this decision...) He's going to feel committed with a lot of his donking range and I don't think we induce that many river bluffs on Ace high rainbow flops after he gets called unless he's a complete drooler (in which case, he'd probably be calling turn with plenty of speculative/bad holdings anyways with the PSR's as they lie on the turn).

I don't think you give up a ton by doing it at this level, but I don't necessarily think that it's a more optimal line to take.

TheGeek

Hey guys, I'm primarily a cash game player but would like to get better at tournament play and SNGs just to have that skill set, would this series be where you guys (AMT and Bones) would suggest to start? Or should I watch some of the other stuff at DC first?

TecmoSuperBowl

Hey guys, I'm primarily a cash game player but would like to get better at tournament play and SNGs just to have that skill set, would this series be where you guys (AMT and Bones) would suggest to start? Or should I watch some of the other stuff at DC first?

phrands

Hey guys, I'm primarily a cash game player but would like to get better at tournament play and SNGs just to have that skill set, would this series be where you guys (AMT and Bones) would suggest to start? Or should I watch some of the other stuff at DC first?

HotDiggy1121

After the Flop, I'd normally bet 175 and hope to take the pot that's like 20% of our stack at that time - folding to a check-raise. You guys suggest checking it back. I'm not quite catching onto that concept even after watching the vid a few times. Could you go into that a little more? Is there other material to read or vids to watch to really get into that whole concept?

What if the turn comes and it's an 8, or a 9? What size bet from villain makes us fold (if the turn wasn't an Ace)?Aren't At, QT, JT in his range there? If I were in the villains position, I normally just call with AJ and KQ if they aren't suited. Is that an error? I think Bones mentions that if he had AJ he would have raised??

AMT

Listen carefully to what Bones says in the AQ spot, as a lot of the reasons are covered in there as to why you want to check back. Also, think about why you want to bet, and what your intentions are, and at the flop texture. This flop hits villains flatting range pretty hard. Due to this 'wet' texture implication, we're going to get check/raised a much higher % of the time on this board/in this spot than in other situations. So what you're saying is that you're trying to bet what might well be the best hand, but is still just ace high, which could have both show down value and reasonable pot equity, but will fold to a check raise (and often be lost when check/called), which happens a noticeable % of the time. All of this when you yourself say that hands that hit the flop are well within his range. Think carefully about the benefits of each line as they relate specifically to your hand, this board, the stacks, and all of the available factors that you have to you to make a decision.

Bones didn't say anything to my knowledge about AJ/KQ that would allude to preflop implications. He said that, in his opinion, villain would probably bet more with his stronger made hands on the turn. Both KQ and AJ should be folded preflop most likely in villains position here.

edit: running out of the house now but let me know if this doesn't help at all.

AMT

Hey guys, I'm primarily a cash game player but would like to get better at tournament play and SNGs just to have that skill set, would this series be where you guys (AMT and Bones) would suggest to start? Or should I watch some of the other stuff at DC first?

I'd say Last Man Standing is a good place to start from scratch, and real life sng grinder probably a good follow up.

urinpain

Hey guys, I'm primarily a cash game player but would like to get better at tournament play and SNGs just to have that skill set, would this series be where you guys (AMT and Bones) would suggest to start? Or should I watch some of the other stuff at DC first?

HotDiggy1121

Listen carefully to what Bones says in the AQ spot, as a lot of the reasons are covered in there as to why you want to check back. Also, think about why you want to bet, and what your intentions are, and at the flop texture. This flop hits villains flatting range pretty hard. Due to this 'wet' texture implication, we're going to get check/raised a much higher % of the time on this board/in this spot than in other situations. So what you're saying is that you're trying to bet what might well be the best hand, but is still just ace high, which could have both show down value and reasonable pot equity, but will fold to a check raise (and often be lost when check/called), which happens a noticeable % of the time. All of this when you yourself say that hands that hit the flop are well within his range. Think carefully about the benefits of each line as they relate specifically to your hand, this board, the stacks, and all of the available factors that you have to you to make a decision.

Bones didn't say anything to my knowledge about AJ/KQ that would allude to preflop implications. He said that, in his opinion, villain would probably bet more with his stronger made hands on the turn. Both KQ and AJ should be folded preflop most likely in villains position here.

edit: running out of the house now but let me know if this doesn't help at all.

Thanks. That definitely helps I think. I ran it back a few more times and I think I'm beginning to be on the way to grabbing this. Here is what I have noted now. Let me know if I'm completely off base? sorry it's so long.

Pre flop he probably raises AA-TT, AJs+, AKo.So he calls with 77-99, A9s-ATs, KT-KQs, QT-QJs, JTs, KQ-KJo, AJo.FLOP:When he checks to us, it rules out the flush draw. Most opponents semi-bluff there? So 2 spades not a huge concern.99, 88, & 77 â€“ heâ€™d bet to see where he was and maybe take the pot there.A9 â€“ heâ€™d check the flop hoping for an A or runner,runner for his straight or flush. Ace of spades/x is a possibility.AT â€“ Heâ€™d bet. My observation is SB/BB villains bet if the flop hits them at all.AJ â€“ Heâ€™d bet.AQ â€“ Heâ€™d checkKT â€“ Heâ€™d bet.KJ â€“ Heâ€™d bet or check-raise.KQ â€“ Check calls to keep pot small and hope for straight.QT â€“ Hmm. I donâ€™t know about this one.QJ â€“ He bets or check raise.JT â€“ Either bets or check-raise.

That leaves:A9 â€“ AQ â€“ KQ â€“ QT â€“ JTJT â€“ Either bets or check-raises. ( If he checks, then we check behind and he has JT we could lose a big pot, right? Because his hand is disguised. If we bet flop, then he raised weâ€™d know (or suspect) cheaper. But since this is the only option like this it wonâ€™t happen that often?) - but if we hit a King weâ€™ll get his stack if he has this.

TURN:When turn is an Ace, he would bet at least half pot with A9,AQ,KQ,JT. Only KQ and JT really hurt us after the turn. The weak bet is a poor attempt to stab at the pot since we checked behind so he probably has air?

So, checking the flop increased the value by 100 chips. If we just call the turn bet, he may take another stab on river? If he checks river, then we bet and maybe he calls to squeeze a little more out?

bones

Sorry I haven't been around to answer more in this thread. There will definitely be more in-game discussion and hand play in the rest of the series. We just wanted to cover a lot of general things that newer players need to hear and some things that experienced players should always have in mind. IMO the stuff we discussed at the beginning in regards to preparing yourself, bankroll and tilt management, etc will have a greater impact on your earn than whether or not to check back ace high with 2x pot left.

Don't worry though, we will have a ton of tournament specific technical content in this series.

HotDiggy1121

This video reminded me to get back to this and I've had a lot of success. I want to make sure I'm not mis-applying it though. Besides the read on the opponent(shove until he shows you he's limping with big hands), are there other factors that should weigh on that decision? Stack size compared to limper, stage of tourney, etc?

If one is getting near the money, they should pass up on small edges, right? What factors could shift this from a small edge to a big edge?

Thanks ! Love the series btw....I completely forgot about the "Thank you for the fish" song...hilarious.

AMT

A8s should be good enough vs. a lot of the hands that people continue to limp with 5-10+bb stacks in the middle game. These types of basically- value shoves that are still intended to just take down the pot as is but can be ahead even when called/aren't complete garbage hands are very valuable in SNGs and contribute a lot to maintaining your stack and attacking dead money in the middle game when the stacks start shrinking drastically. If he was in slightly later position or had just slightly more chips (1 or 2bb's), I'd go so far as to say that it'd be a pretty big leak not to be making these types of shoves over limpers when the money in the pot becomes significant and the opposition is failing to adjust their actions and ranges appropriately for the situation (Of course, I do still think it's a good play here). I'd say in the old days we had a lot more freedom with how wide we'd be able to shove over limpers in similar situations due to less trapping and even wider limping ranges + higher fold equity, but A8s certainly still fits the bill IMO.

moldovan89

Hey guys, I was always wondering about simple stuff off the poker table, some of them you already covered here in the first episode. I played 1$ and than 2$ sng, crashed them and now I am at 5$ really having problems. After I had 20% ROI in like 1500 games, I now have 0% ROI after 700 games. I learned some stuff about sngs before, but simple questions keep pumping into my mind like: What kind of music do you listen playing poker? How do you manage to play such many tables? I play 10 max turbo 3 min blind, how do you organize when you play a session? I open like 4 tables and wait to increase to the 50/100 blind level and than open another 3 tables tiled (bought a 23" monitor) and if I lose on a table I open another, is there any better way to play this becouse I cant stay focused too many time, you mentioned in the video like to play a 4-6 hours session, that blew my mind because I can only manage to play 1 or 2 max hours a session because It's so exhausting. My goal is to play 100 sngs a day and that means to me to play poker to spread poker sessions all over the day. I would really like to play a 4-6 hour session, or like 2 sessions a day, but still some things doesn't have sense for me. How many sngs you usually play on a day? or u used to play... I got Poker Tracker and start using he HUD, I'm not sure if there is any video about how to use HUD properly for playing STT, I will be great if you guys can point me out or make some stuff like that. Is that normal to have sessions with like 20 streak out of money? or even more? to drop like 40 buyins in a single day? How do you handle such stuff? I had a week full of that kind of swings, I almost feel like I have no power in my games, even than it's full of losing players here. I think there is valuable information you can provide for new sng players, stuff that maybe look so normal or obvious to you that don't get to mention. I feel excited about joining at DC, there is a good information about SNG and a great community. I will come along with more questions.

AMT

Thanks for your questions. Apologies if we didn't hit on everything in this episode. Bones and I are considering touching on these questions and opening up the floor for other questions for a future episode in the series. If we don't end up doing this, we'll be sure to come back and touch on these for you.

urinpain,

There will definitely be more of standard structure turbo STT videos on the site in the future (though I can't quote you any specific dates or timeframes). Not specifically sure what you mean by including a lot of desperate -$EV shoves though. On purpose?

urinpain

There will definitely be more of standard structure turbo STT videos on the site in the future (though I can't quote you any specific dates or timeframes). Not specifically sure what you mean by including a lot of desperate -$EV shoves though. On purpose?

As the blinds rise faster in a turbo than in a regular SNG, you'll be really short really soon and if so, you don't have the chance to wait for a big hand, because the next blind increase is just to come, so we have to make some desparation shoves (with stacksizes like 4BB or less).That's what I meant.

moldovan89

+1 I agree with urinpain.If possible to have a video to show some strategy in playing late stage on a SNG, it will be very helpfull, some push/fold expertise.

hey guys I have a great idea lets write to vandweller to cover in an episode of HEY VAN this stuff, I already wrote to him this, just write, because he will definetly cover this stuff in an episode if is such a demand At which site do you guys play? I don't see ppl to play on other sites than stars and full tilt

AMT

I suggest you guys take plans that you have for Vandweller directly to him. Probably more efficient than via this thread

I really need to stress that these spots come up a lot in-game and I'm sure are covered in previous videos (I go into this idea in my "Last Man Standing" series), but again, we will certainly make it a point to address blind equity loss more specifically in a future video(s). Content can only feasibly be produced so fast, and we put in a lot of hours for you guys. Enjoy the content that's always coming out and the continually progressing community, and I'm sure you'll continue to see the results that you hope for. We *do* see when you guys make requests and take all of them seriously.

veloblank

Great first vid focusing on tilt issues and being prepared to play when we play our best, yet not letting the game define who we are away from the tables. This is something I am getting better at and this vid has helped. thanks guys

veloblank

Question guys: you recommend SNG wizard for serious SNG players. I use Poker Tracker 3 with a customized HUD. Can you explain the benefits of using SNGW instead/as well? New to that software. Thx

You'll be using SNG Wiz away from the table, as opposed to a HUD which is primarily used in-game. Using the HUD to filter certain situations (3-5 handed, Unopened, -vpip, etc.) and using it with SNG Wiz will benefit your understanding/play of ICM. Try out SNGWiz's trial (http://www.sngwiz.com/tiki/tiki-index.php) and/or SNG End-Game Tools.

DntWryUllWin

In the QQ hand if you 3bet to a standard 3.5x and he 4bets all in are you folding? I personally would from an UTG raiser am I wrong there? Also I think it changes if its say a CO raise and ur in the BB and u 3bet then he 4bets all in I would be calling.

DntWryUllWin

In the A8s hand say he does call with pockets 99-22, broadways, and Ax hands. Isnt that bad for us considering were fliping against all those inless he has a worse Ax hand. To lose 50% of our stack for 375 chips just seems to risky. What about checking here and attempting to outplay him post? If hes limping UTG+1 hes probably pretty passive and wont give us to much trouble post flop, what are your thoughts on that play?

urinpain

In the QQ hand if you 3bet to a standard 3.5x and he 4bets all in are you folding? I personally would from an UTG raiser am I wrong there? Also I think it changes if its say a CO raise and ur in the BB and u 3bet then he 4bets all in I would be calling.

As it's a micro stakes SNG I'll definitely call if he limp/shoves on us, although he's in UTG, because his range has the be really tight to make it a non-profit call for us and I think the standard player at this level should be loose enough to have a profitable call.

bones

In the QQ hand if you 3bet to a standard 3.5x and he 4bets all in are you folding? I personally would from an UTG raiser am I wrong there? Also I think it changes if its say a CO raise and ur in the BB and u 3bet then he 4bets all in I would be calling.

There are few circumstances in poker where I'd 3b/fold queens. I'd need TONS of info that would lead me to believe that someone would have a wide calling range and a ridiculously tight 4 betting range. If someone is very tight utg and won't call your 3bets with the bottom of his range, you can flat.

musclepro

i do not agree with the 2.5 raise as you are giving good pot odds to the big blind of 3.17/1 to call,i think a bigger raise is called for esp as it gives you too many diff spots to deal with.
This is esp true with this flop,i prefer a raise to 800 or 4 times blind,now you shrink his pot odds to 2/1.

PokerByProxy

I have a tip used a lot in chess and researched by the former soviet union and told to me by a chess coach back in school; when you feel concentration is not what it could be, or your attention wandering, etc. Place one or both hands flat over the ears and rub gently in a circular motion for a few moments, (if you watch videos with Garry Kasparov, you will see him holding his hands over his ears frequently). Apparently, it increases blood flow to the ears, which in turn affects blood flow to the brain, it sounds like horseshit, and probably is; however, I can say I notice an instant increase in alertness and attention after doing it and it certainly cannot hurt.

re Stacks

I'm a National Chess Master and have played hundreds of tournaments, but have never heard of that one. I will have to ask my friend who is an 80ish year old GM from the Soviet Union if he has ever heard of that. I have noticed that it is most difficult to concentrate around the 4th hour of play and this is most likely due to low blood sugar and also something I struggle with in long online sng sessions. Change in diet and having decent snacks available has helped somewhat, but I will try your suggestion as well.