Police Etiquette

This is a discussion on Police Etiquette within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I've never broke the rules on a stop and never will
I know how I would want to be treated and will always do the ...

Besides what I posted in Post #25, let me play devil's advocate here for a minute.

I think that we all agree that if an officer checks a gun S/N on a MV stop and it turns out to be stolen, it's instantly going to get ugly for the driver/passenger.

The problem with this is that any gun we own could indeed have been a stolen gun. Dealers buy/sell guns all the time and do NOT (at least in MA) have the ability legally to check S/Ns routinely to ensure that they were never reported stolen.

So here's the scenario, I buy a gun from a legitimate dealer, go on my merry way for a year or two, get stopped, officer runs S/N of the gun and the next thing I know is that I'm facing a felony possession of a stolen gun charge. Back home in my safe I have all my state registration forms (required for all gun transactions in MA, even FTF) proving that I indeed bought it legitimately. My Wife gives a copy to my lawyer so that at my trial/arraignment, PERHAPS the DA will drop the charges. Regardless, I have a felony arrest on my record for life (at least in MA, there is NO legal way to expunge any arrest even if mistaken identity) to explain away and the record can not be sealed. I've also probably spent a few thousand dollars in legal fees, lost time for work, etc.

Now, let's explore how this could happen.

1. The gun may well have been stolen, sold to a dealer at some point and then resold to the public. Dealer and current gun owner are clueless about the problem.
2. The gun may have been stolen, recovered and returned to the rightful owner who then sold it to a dealer and later someone else purchased it. BUT the listing PD may not have cleared it from the system.

As for item 2. above, here's a similar story. One night I'm working patrol with a fellow officer and he's in a terrible mood. He explains that his Father's car had been stolen, recovered and returned but the "listing PD" had never cleared it from the computer. My partner had just run his Father's registration (this is ~2 months after the car was recovered and returned) and it still was listed as stolen. He was upset because he could envision his Father dragged from the car at gunpoint due to the "lack of attention to detail" by the listing department! [In MA, only the PD that lists an item as stolen can remove it from the list, so if it is recovered somewhere else, the recovering PD notifies the listing PD but it is up to the listing PD to remove the item from the computerized list of stolen items.]

The problem with this is that any gun we own could indeed have been a stolen gun. Dealers buy/sell guns all the time and do NOT (at least in MA) have the ability legally to check S/Ns routinely to ensure that they were never reported stolen.

So here's the scenario, I buy a gun from a legitimate dealer, go on my merry way for a year or two, get stopped, officer runs S/N of the gun and the next thing I know is that I'm facing a felony possession of a stolen gun charge. Back home in my safe I have all my state registration forms (required for all gun transactions in MA, even FTF) proving that I indeed bought it legitimately.

I think this IS a problem. If there is going to be a database that is used to verify that equipment is not stolen, then the database needs to be made available for usage. Obviously protections need to be in place where Joe Buglar can't get information such as name and address of gun owners, but it should be simple enough to enter a make, model, and serial number and get a simple affirmative/negative response. The problem is that there is a liability and responsibility being placed upon the citizen but said citizen has no ability to perform due diligence.

Here are a couple of examples: 1) I purchased a gun in a face to face transfer. I verified the ID and CCL of the person I purchased it from and have a bill of sale with said information. To the absolute best of my knowledge and ability to determine this gun is legitimate and I have obtained it lawfully and paid for it. Do I know it's history? No. 2) I bought a used gun from a dealer. What is it's history? I have no idea. I gave this gun to my wife, who in turn sold it to another dealer, who will undoubtedly sell it to someone else. Did he get any proof that it wasn't stolen? No.

Could either have been stolen or used as a murder weapon. Unlikely, but who knows. The thing is that I have no way of determining and unless I have some sort of chance encounter where it is verified against a *secret* database, I will probably never know. In general, secret databases are a problem.

But it simply would not work that way; you would not be arrested instantly, unless there is some other circumstance. Simply being in possession two years after the fact is not pc for an arrest. If it was ten minutes or even a day after it was stolen, maybe....
NCIC record does not automatically give pc for arrests be it for stolen items or wanted people. Information still needs to be confirmed. A "hit" in the system is simply an alert that tells the officer that he may want to dig a little deeper and give him a starting point.

But it simply would not work that way; you would not be arrested instantly, unless there is some other circumstance. Simply being in possession two years after the fact is not pc for an arrest. If it was ten minutes or even a day after it was stolen, maybe....
NCIC record does not automatically give pc for arrests be it for stolen items or wanted people. Information still needs to be confirmed. A "hit" in the system is simply an alert that tells the officer that he may want to dig a little deeper and give him a starting point.

This might be a difference in state laws or just semantics.

In MA officers generally have a choice to cite someone or arrest them (or strictly cite where no right of arrest exists). If you are found with stolen property you are likely to be charged with "receiving stolen property" MGL C. 266 S. 60 (felony if value >$250).

In both cases, this is reportable every time you fill out a MA, NH, ME, FL CCW application and shows up on your BOP forever, regardless of disposition.

In both scenarios I mentioned above, if a check with the listing department (if they didn't do due diligence on clearing returned property) may not turn up this fact and a charge will ensue. If it really was stolen and sold to you by a dealer, the PD will confirm stolen status and same end result.

You need a good (expensive) attorney to get this taken care of, but like I stated, MA has NO mechanism for expunging records, even if it's a mistaken identity arrest . . . it follows you for life.

No, its not semantics... its law 101. There has to be at least one culpable state proven for a crime to occur. One would have to show that a reasonable person would or at least should have known that the gun was stolen.

Really

Originally Posted by NYCrulesU

I'm not required to in TN. I don't tell them I'm LE and I don't tell them I'm carrying. And I don't flash around my HCP either. If they request..I give them my license and registration. That's it. Anything else they want to know..they had better have good reason or a warrant.

Maybe you should have paid a little more attention in your permit class. Because in tn you are required to notify a leo of your ccl. Im sure its people like you that cause the rest of us to get a bad name

Personally, I think its ridiculous for a state to make a law saying a CWP/CHL/CCW/[whatever license holder] is required to inform upon official contact. I don't know about the other 9 states with this law, but in Texas the folks without a CHL don't have to inform, and the dirtbags dang sure don't inform. Its totally asinine to me as a cop. Completely stupid. Thus is the world of the legislature trying to satisfy the persons that weren't totally sold on the concept of the CHL in Texas when the laws were made. Just feel good fluff crap.

That being said, I do like having a CHL show me that card for reasons I stated in the other thread runningConfronted by LEO while carrying
I know that person isn't the dirtbag we're looking for.

As far as policy for disarming, Texas law says officers MAY disarm, not shall or will. We don't have a dept policy covering this.
99.9% of our dept is in favor of CHL and are big 2A supporters.

I've never, and I've never seen any other officers, check serial numbers on a gun unless its been taken off a person in custody or found on a legal search or vehicle inventory after arrest (and none of this has ever happened here with a CHL).
And someone mentioned LEOs don't run SN on other items....I beg to differ since I see more SN run on stereos, phones, and other electronics WAY more often than firearms.

if a LEO is truly trampling (read=violating) constitutional rights, then action needs to be taken against them. If they do things that are allowed by the constitution, laws, case law/interpretations, then the LEO is following the law but people may not like it.
Some are upset that officers ask to search a vehicle, but an officer can't get consent unless it is given, they can't get a refusal unless it is given. I think an officer asking and being told no is better than just starting the search on their own and the person then having to tell them to stop.

I know a big deal with folks here is the disarming thing. I've never seen a CHL disarmed here, never heard of one either. I was stopped 3 times before I became a cop and was never disarmed or searched. I do know it happens, but unless that CHL has done something else to warrant it, I think its stupid and a waste of officer's time.

Its kind of funny, I stopped a car late last night, 58 yo female, handed me DL/insurance and said 'here, I have to show you this too' and gave me her CHL. I asked her what she carried and she said just a .22. I said, 'hey thats alright, whatever you like best, better to have something'. I told her that we like these (the cards) and thats when she said she usually only carries it with her when traveling. I said 'so you don't have it with you now?' and she said no. I then told her she didn't have to show me her CHL if she didn't have the gun with her and she just said ok. I wish all the instructors would make sure all their students know what is required and what isn't. (sorry for the sidetrack, just makes me a little upset) I told her that .22 might come in real handy just going to the store as she was, especially this time of night, not just on road trips.

Nice to hear a TX LEO speak the truth! Thank you!
And we in Oklahoma copied your CHL law for the most part and we got this "must inform" that way (I could be wrong but this is what I believe.)
I know all the stuff about qualifying with a semi-auto means you can carry a semi-auto, etc. comes from the TX law. I don't have a problem with that part, I just think it means we largely copied the TX law on this.

Once when stopped I informed the officer I was carrying, his response was "I don't need to hear that". Cool!

Pretty much every cop I have met, been pulled over by, known, have been first classe...well...you know. No insults to anyone who isnt, dont get me wrong I am sure there are nice guys out there that honestly want to make a difference. I am a bit hesitant to show a CWL to a cop just to get searched or put in handcuffs which has happened for another issue which was not gun related of which I was innocent. Anyway, I have very bad history of cops using their badges to increase the size of their.......night sticks to say. As I live in Arkansas I must show them but from my past I will make sure I know my rights.

Here in Idaho your not required to notify. Last week I got pulled over for going a little to fast through a highway construction zone, and I asked the state police officer that stopped me if I was required to notify them that I was carrying a gun. The officer told me that I wasn`t required to notify them, but they appreciate it if you do. The officer also told me that when they check your license that it tells them if you have a CCW permit.

I didn`t get a ticket for speeding, but I got a ticket for expired registration. (I had no idea it was expired)

Maybe you should have paid a little more attention in your permit class. Because in tn you are required to notify a leo of your ccl. Im sure its people like you that cause the rest of us to get a bad name

Before you start throwing folks under the bus, you should cite to authority the TN Code where you are obligated to inform a LEO in the state of TN. My research has not found it...

In KY I'm not sure if we are required to notify or not. But I do believe it is common courtesy to do so. Back in January I was stopped for a bad head light and when the officer came up to get my DL, I told him that I have a valid CCL and where my gun was and that my wallet was under my gun. After obtaining my DL, he came back to the my car gave my DL back to me and thanked me for telling him about my CCL and said it was good for his safety and mine too. He then gave me a warning for my headlight.

The only occasion I've had in nearly 16 years of carrying, to inform or not to inform, my wife and I were rear-ended while sitting at a red light.
A female Trooper responded. When she arrived, she asked for license, registration, and insurance card. I am not required to inform here in Florida, but I chose to do so out of courtesy to the officer. I gave her my CWFL on top of the other documents. She looked at it and asked, "are you armed now?" and said yes ma'am, and she asked where is it. I told her on my hip strong side at 3 o'clock. She asked me to "please put it in the trunk until we're finished here".
That was it, calm, relaxed and uneventful...as it should be.

I'm not for sure, but I believe when LE is dealing with a permit holder, they realize we are law-abiding citizens and tend to give a break as several of the earlier posts have stated.